#ubuntustudio-devel 2010-02-15
 * abogani waves
 * abogani wondering if choice about kernels was taken...
<dholbach> hiya
<ScottL_> hi dholbach 
<dholbach> hey ScottL_
<dholbach> stochastic_: ever heard of xwax playing tracks much too fast?
<dholbach> stochastic_: which timecode vinyl do you use?
<ScottL_> TheMuso: since you deal with the assessibility, I read about Orca lead developer being fired lately :(   http://lwn.net/Articles/373475/rss
 * abogani waves
<abogani> Anyone are around?
<ScottL_> hi abogani
<abogani> ScottL_: Fee... _live_ in this channel...
<abogani> :-)
<ScottL_> are you asking if I live in this channel?
<abogani> No I ask if there are _life_ in general in this channel.
<abogani> There are two days that I try to know if someone has taken decisions about kernels.
<ScottL_> yes, I was wondering if any decisions were made about the kernel as well
<abogani> ScottL_: What is your TZ?
<ScottL_> Central (US)
<abogani> ScottL_: What is the nearest to you big city? I would want add your TZ into Gnome Clock
<ScottL_> Houston, Texas probably.  I would also suggest Dallas but I expect Houston will be there because of NASA.
<ScottL_> abogani: I'm curious as well, where do you live?
<abogani> ScottL_: Prato, 17Km Florence in the middle of Italy
<abogani> I meant 17km near Floirence
<abogani> Florence
<abogani> ScottL_: http://maps.google.com/places/it/prato-city?hl=en
<abogani> ScottL_: Do you know TZ of others Studio Developers?
<ScottL_> heh, I was guessing Italy by your (presumably) last name :)
<crimsun> I'm EST (currently -0500)
<crimsun> so is mma
<ScottL_> re: Studio Developers - I know generalities but no specifics
<ScottL_> cory was east coast, themuso is in Australia, stochastic is somewhere in Canada
<abogani> crimsun: Could you give a city name, please?
<ScottL_> abogani: those are some extremely beautiful pictures shown on the link you gave
<ScottL_> that is something that the US does not have that Europe does...such a long, rich history, archetecture and CASTLES!
<abogani> Florence have betters one :-)
<ScottL_> yeah, the US actually does have a few castles, but not like Europe
<ScottL_> http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&g=Prato+PO%2C+Italy&q=montgomery%2C+texas&btnG=Search+Maps
<crimsun> abogani: Washington, DC
<ScottL_> that's the closest city to my house...we live in an unincorporated area (or otherwise know as "outside the city limits")
<abogani> ScottL_: Cool
<abogani> ScottL_, crimsun: Thanks!
<abogani> I go to eat something...
 * abogani comes back
 * abogani listen "Canon e Gigue" by Remsky
<TheMuso> ScottL_: Yeah thats old news to me. :)
 * abogani , meanwhile continuously request review on -motu, notice that Luke is around...
<abogani> TheMuso: Good morning! 08:35 ?
<TheMuso> Hi abogani.
<ScottL_> TheMuso: did you have secret, insider information or is information in the article old?
<TheMuso> ScottL_: Its rather public info from a couple of weeks back.
<TheMuso> ScottL_: But I was one of the first to find out.
<ScottL_> TheMuso: so, it sounds like a little "yes" for options then :)
<TheMuso> ScottL_: I don't follow.
<abogani> persia: Are you around?
<ScottL_> TheMuso: sorry, English is my first language, i'll be better at my second one J/K
<TheMuso> ScottL_: heh
<ScottL_> i meant 'yes' to BOTH options  - meaning you sort of had insider information if you were on of the first people to find out and the information was public for a while now
<TheMuso> ScottL_: oh ok
<TheMuso> ScottL_: yeah that sounds about right
<ScottL_> anyone heard from luis lately?  cory was supposed to send an email but I haven't seen him lately either :(
<TheMuso> I've heard nothing.
<abogani> TheMuso: May I disturb you for a minute?
<TheMuso> abogani: Sure.
<abogani> TheMuso: Have you followed discussions about kernels on Lucid for Studio (that is -preempt vs -lowlatency vs -rt vs -generic)?
<TheMuso> abogani: Not really I am sorry, I have been busy with other things.
<abogani> TheMuso: Ok. I don't want waste your time so only a question:
<TheMuso> sure
<abogani> TheMuso: In your opinion do you have a chance to convince Tim Gardner to release i386 -preempt kernel also?
<abogani> TheMuso: Ubuntu Kernel Team provide only amd64 one. This is why we are the -lowlatency.
<abogani> Into our PPA
<TheMuso> abogani: No sorry, I don't really have time to try and chase that up, and unfortunately my experience is trying to get such things done with the kernel guys is sometimes like going against a brick wall.
<abogani> TheMuso: Same for me :(
<abogani> TheMuso: Do you have any problems if I request per-package upload rights on linux-rt?
<TheMuso> abogani: No, but I haven't really seen any of your recent work appart from that rt upload a while back.
<TheMuso> abogani: So I am not sure how strong your packaging skills are yet.
<abogani> Always better than nothing
<troy_s> Side note, has anyone done any tests regarding illustration / drawing and low latency kernels?
<troy_s> Sorry to jut in, but I could easily see real time kernels being useful to artists.
<abogani> Really? I always supposed that -rt was useful only for audio artists.
<ScottL_> hi troy_s,   also, i'm intrigued by your comment :)
<ScottL_> but I'll read about it when I get home
<troy_s> ScottL_: Well that's too bad.
<troy_s> abogani: Well so did I
<troy_s> abogani: I'm wondering though. 
<troy_s> abogani: In a traditional workflow, you are sketching and drawing large strokes etc.
<troy_s> abogani: If you do this with a tablet, and draw larger strokes (as on a 6x11 tablet) or fast strokes, you get polygonal responses - the kernel can't seem to keep up with the speed of input.
<troy_s> abogani: I'm wondering if _maybe_ -rt would help to bring that latency down?
<abogani> troy_s: Sorry but I don't have direct experience with tablet: I really don't know. The only chance to discover it is testing.
<abogani> unfortunately I don't have any tablet :-(
<troy_s> abogani: I'd test, but I can't think of a way to really prove conclusively with numerical data.
<abogani> troy_s: I suspect that only "user experience" are valid.
<abogani> Sorry guys. It is very late for me. Bed is calling me :-)
<abogani> Ciao!
#ubuntustudio-devel 2010-02-16
<ScottL> troy_s, you said "that's too bad" was that because I was leaving?
<troy_s> ScottL: No it was related to you finding something I said interesting.
<troy_s> ScottL: I have a hunch that the -rt might be more responsive to tablet work. Just a hunch though. No real way to do a qualitative test.
<ScottL> i wonder how many people have and use the wacom tablet thingie
<troy_s> ScottL: In Linux? Very few. Why would you?
<troy_s> ScottL: Chicken Egg theory.
<troy_s> ScottL: The general outlook is pretty crappy, the software is pretty much crippled all to piss. The only real use would be for very expensive software that happens to run on linux.
<troy_s> ScottL: Of that, there is very little that would be traditional artist based.
<troy_s> ScottL: So I'm thinking it isn't something that is encountered or even thought about.
<ScottL> i know very little about the wacom stuff, cory had mentioned it so I thought it might be more pervasive than it apparently is
<troy_s> ScottL: Well I guess you could argue that it is as viable as any other input device.
<troy_s> ScottL: In practical terms, there aren't enough dogfooders out there that actually stick with the crap we have.
<troy_s> ScottL: So much of it evolves at glacial paces.
<troy_s> ScottL: Still doesn't make the thought moot however. _if_ there is a place where -rt would impact illustration / painting, I'd think it was important.
<ScottL> well, i'm a little selfish, i want -rt, -lowlatency or -preempt for my audio ;P
<troy_s> ScottL: I'd be interested in figuring out a way to test things.
<troy_s> ScottL: If you can get latency numbers on audio, I'd think there were ways to test latency on input devices.
<ScottL> troy_s, I think abogani has been aggregating test numbers on the kernels
<ScottL> i would not be available to devote time to test until the end of February
<ScottL> February is the RPM Challenge - http://www.rpmchallenge.com/
<ScottL> after which I would really interested in testing (and I can document how methodologies)
<ScottL> *me wonders how he passed English when he rereads what he types on IRC
 * ScottL fails at being l33t IRC user again!
 * TheMuso can't stand leet speak anyway.
<dholbach> hiya
<TheMuso> Hey dholbach.
<dholbach> hiya TheMuso
 * dholbach 's very happy with xwax and the audio4dj :)
<dholbach> although I had to upgrade it to 0.7-beta2 myself
<TheMuso> ah ok
<dholbach> stochastic_: if we don't want to upgrade to a beta version now (which I totally understand), I suggest we at least fix it not to depend on a non-existing font! :)
<ScottL> jonas with the Debian Multimedia team has built hydrogen-0.9.4, i'll try to get a sync request for it today but if anyone wants to do it please go ahead as I will not get to it for hours yet
<abogani> persia: Are you round ?
<persia> Yes, although I'm rushing madly to be able to go to bed :)  What's up?
<abogani> persia: No urgent: go to sleep. (~2.45). :-)
<abogani> Good night
<persia> abogani: No, what's up?
 * persia would rather know the issue now, even if it can't be dealt with now
<abogani> persia: Ok :-) I would want ask you to send the email to Kernel team (recall you offer yourself as volunteer?).
<persia> Oh right.  Thanks for the reminder.  I'll put that on the list for the morning.
<abogani> persia: Please before chatting with me!
<abogani> I only request you to change body of that message.
<persia> OK.  What do you want?
<persia> The main point I was going to make was about 32-bit support.
<abogani> persia: Sorry my mistake. That is the point.
<abogani> So send it when you can. Thanks
<persia> It seemed like there was a good bit of other discussion happening on the other points (although I'll admit to having fallen behind).
<abogani> persia: I have exactly the opposite feel.
<persia> How do you mean?
<abogani> persia: No one report tests results neither on -lowlatency nor -preempt.
<abogani> No one can tell if we have a lot i386 users.
<persia> Ah, we're talking about different things :)
<persia> I think that there was plenty of *theoretical* discussion on the various bits.
<persia> I agree that there was no testing.
<abogani> Seems to me a lot complicated.
<persia> Sorry.  That's how I think :)
<persia> Anyway, 29 hours is a plenty long day :)
<abogani> Yes :)
<ScottL_> fabrice_sp: ping
<fabrice_sp> Hey ScottL 
<fabrice_sp> pong
<ScottL_> fabrice_sp: is it too late to get zynjacku looked at in REVU again before the feature freeze?
<ScottL_> i've addressed everything you mentioned except i'm having trouble getting debhelper tiny rules to work
<fabrice_sp> if you are able to find 2 sponsors, it would be ok ;-)
<fabrice_sp> I'll check now
<fabrice_sp> hmm, I don't see any new upload in REVU
<ScottL_> i haven't uploaded again, i was trying to get the rules file taken care of but haven't gotten it to work yet
<fabrice_sp> np: FF is on the 18th, I think
<fabrice_sp> so 2 days more
<ScottL_> i have one more idea to try to get it to work, if I can't get it to work do you think it would be okay to use the more verbose, older rules file?
<ScottL_> fabrice_sp: ^^^
<fabrice_sp> the easier one would be easier to maintain, but I'm sure you'll volunteer to maintain the 'complex' one :-P
<ScottL_> yes, i would...i would actually feel compelled since I was the packager
<fabrice_sp> keep trying with dh7 (it should definitively work with it)
<ScottL_> it should but i think it's something about the ./configure that messes it up (it builds in ppa and installs but can't run, even from terminal), i've been working with persia a bit using override_dh_auto_configure
<ScottL_> but again, when I've used dh7 it builds but after installing it will not run
<fabrice_sp> strange
<fabrice_sp> ok, then: come back to the old style rules, deleting the comments
<fabrice_sp> it may be some missing variables
<ScottL_> comments were deleted on my local copy...I'll post to REVU when I get home tonight
<fabrice_sp> ok
<ScottL_> oh, and many, many thanks for working with me on this, you've been a big help and I've learned gads about it
<fabrice_sp> yw ;-) it only ahs been 6 month since I am a MOTU, and also learned a lot ;-)
<ScottL_> i'd like to work up to being a MOTU eventually, but that's a while from now me thinks :P
<fabrice_sp> the key point is not focusing on one thing, but more being a 'generalist' :-)
<fabrice_sp> since my first contribution to Ubuntu, it has been one year and a half to become a MOTU, so it's a long path :-)
<ScottL_> I think i've been working with the studio developers for a few months and was never involved with building or packaging before, so I feel good with my progress so far
<ScottL_> but I also look forward to continuing acquiring knowledge and learning new things and getting lots more packages into studio
<ScottL_> so i'm not in a rush to be a motu but I can see practical benefits to me and the studio developers if i did
<fabrice_sp> not only new packages: also quality of existing packages is important :-)
<ScottL_> you mean the packaging or the intrinsic quality of the app itself?
<fabrice_sp> I mean not only package new apps, but also upgrade or fix the existing one
<ScottL_> yes, i understand
<ScottL_> although i haven't worked on bug triage at this point since I don't have much experience, rather I've tried packaging where I can do it in a void (i.e. no one waiting or depending on me)
<ScottL_> but after talking with persia lately I think that I might start also
<fabrice_sp> good
#ubuntustudio-devel 2010-02-17
 * abogani waves
<ScottL> persia, i have attended to all of fabrice_sp's comments for zynjacku in REVU, it is possible that you can look at it and sponsor it also?
 * persia pulls and rebuilds
<ScottL> thanks persia
<ScottL> also it looks like hydrogen-0.9.4 might make it for lucid since the sync request has been ack'd
<ScottL> that would be nice since hydrogen has some really cool new features
<ScottL> anyway off to work
<persia> Have a good day.
 * abogani listen Iris by "Goo Goo Dolls"...
 * ScottL_ is listening to Slayer
 * abogani sing out of tune "you give love a bad man"....
<persia> ScottL_: I get all sorts of output from Lintian, some of which is actually important (like not having an interpreter for a python script).
<persia> ScottL_: You're shipping .la files too :(
<ScottL_> persia: this surprises me greatly as I had run the linitian -iIv and lintian --pedantic before and didn't get any errors
<persia> Did you run them on the binary .changes files?
<ScottL_> and I have to admit that I don't know what .la files are or why they would make you use a frowny face
<persia> (many people only run against source.changes, and so miss half the stuff)
<persia> I've added one comment to REVU (still working on a second), which includes a link to the reason I frown at .la files.
<persia> They are essentially hint files to the linker (but the ones being shipped are both in the wrong location and contain the wrong text, so they may not actually affect anything)
<ScottL_> I don't remember to be honest, but it would appear that I did not run it against the binary .changes file
<persia> source.changes is lintian clean :)
<ScottL_> wow, after looking at your comments I'm not sure that I'm up to this task now as there are so many things I don't know
<ScottL_> nonetheless I will continue but will not try to force this for the FF
<persia> Sounds like a good plan :)  I'm up to comment 23, and will keep at it for a while, just to make sure I have given it a complete review.
<persia> Feel free to ask about any of the comments: I may well have more details (but I've tried to provide some guidance in each comment)
<ScottL_> i appreciate it persia
<persia> ScottL_: I haven't gone through all the licensing by hand (although some subsets of it, where my tools suggested something interesting), but the review is otherwise complete.
<persia> Good luck!
<ScottL_> whew, i'll need it lol
<ScottL_> persia: should I have known about most of the stuff you noted in REVU?  if so, where can I learn about it?  Debian/Ubuntu policy?
<persia> Yes, but I got the first 15 items from lintian.
 * persia wishes falkj would hang out on IRC more.
<persia> Anyone know the details of the VST patent?  Can we ship http://revu.ubuntuwire.com/p/fst ?  Is it worth reviewing?
<TheMuso`> Afaik the Steinbirg header was rewritten from scratch.
<TheMuso`> But don't hold me to that though.
<persia> To put that another way, are we likely to get sued?
<persia> Should we perhaps let Debian package it first?
<persia> (and debian-legal can thrash out the discussion)
<stochastic> persia, my knowledge is that fst now uses the vestegie (sp?) headers rather than the Seinberg VST headers
<stochastic> these headers are already in Ubuntu in the form of the lmms-vst package (and probably others)
<persia> stochastic: Your certain knowledge?
<persia> Oh, cool. I will try to review it then.
 * stochastic looks at that package to make sure they use the vesteige headers
<stochastic> I know that the vestiege headers are okay to ship
<stochastic> persia, yes, they use the vestige (<- I thnk that's the right spelling) headers
<persia> Thanks for checking.
<persia> Excellent!
<persia> I may get stuck, but .
<persia> But...I'll try to review it.
 * persia needs more CPUs
<TheMuso`> heh
<stochastic> just to double check I opened the orig.tar.gz from lmms-vst off the packages.ubuntu.com website and it has the vestige headers too, so all is well.
<stochastic> persia, I know falktj has been on IRC before, maybe someone should send him an e-mail asking him to hang out here more?\
<persia> stochastic: Most of the time he doesn't need realtime, so it's fine.
<persia> It's just with 57 minutes to go to freeze, I like realtime :)
<persia> But given my current review queue, 40 minutes until you answered is no problem wrt latency.
 * persia really wants the new musecore, with one more soundfont, and is racing CPU against time
<stochastic> TheMuso`, do you want to push the latest seeds before freeze?  I just removed the -rt kernel and added the -preempt kernel for amd64.
<TheMuso`> stochastic: Sure I'll take a look.
<stochastic> thanks.
<TheMuso`> So what kernel for i386?
<persia> -generic, unfortunately.
<persia> There seems to be annoyingly strong resistance to any sort of support for i386 :(
<TheMuso`> Tell me about it.
<stochastic> TheMuso`, we'll point people to the UbuntuStudio PPA for the -lowlatency kernel in our release notes for i386 users
 * persia could still send a flame mail, but has been advised in separate discussions that it won't do any good
<TheMuso`> stochastic: ok
<TheMuso`> Its almost like the kernel team are saying x64 is the future period, dispite all this i386 netbook hardware.
<TheMuso`> Even with preempt I don't think we get all the settings we need.
<stochastic> I'm sure we'll get mixed reviews
<TheMuso`> stochastic: Not sure about those changes, I think the way you did it will break things.
<stochastic> oh, okay, I'm not too familiar with the kernel settings, can you fix what's needed?
<TheMuso`> sure
<stochastic> Oh, I should have just removed the -rt trail on the i386 rather than commenting it out right?
<TheMuso`> Ok meta probably doesn't need an update, but I'll check.
<TheMuso`> stochastic: see my latest push
<stochastic> TheMuso`, gotcha.  Thanks.
<persia> Yeah, well.  To do it right means finding a way to get the -rt patches mainline, and then have a flavour.
<persia> Unfortunately, that's *hard*
 * stochastic wonders....  Now that we aren't shipping RT in Lucid, should Ubuntu Studio Controls have Nice and Memlock setting adjustments?
<TheMuso`> Yes
<persia> stochastic: Yes, because some users will (correctly) find a way to get -rt
<stochastic> ahh
<stochastic> good point
<persia> And we should help them in our docs, and in #ubuntustudio
<persia> We can't ship by default, but that's a side issue for professional users.
<TheMuso`> The whole RT thing makes it very difficult for us.
<TheMuso`> Kernel wise
<persia> Indeed.
<persia> We had a separate source in the archive for a while, but that didn't really work very well either.
<persia> Unfortunately, people with the combination of skills with the kernel and skills with packaging are rare to nonexistant (because they work in such incredibly different ways).
<persia> (this includes all members of the Ubuntu kernel team)
 * stochastic has to head out.  Talk to you guys later
<persia> new musecore uploaded
<persia> Now we have *two* soundfonts :)
<TheMuso`> cool
<persia> Thank tsmithe, who is responsible for *both* of them.
<persia> That boy cares about what he does.
<TheMuso`> yeah
#ubuntustudio-devel 2010-02-18
<ScottL> persia, did I really do a horrible job with zynjacku?  It certainly feels so
<persia> Not at all.
<persia> I reject about 80% of the packages I get on REVU, and I tend to only really review the ones that either have gotten prior reviews, or for which I've previously done an eyeball review and the uplaoder has fixed stuff.
<persia> I'm really picky :)
<persia> Since I hit your package without that layer of prior fixing, you got a *lot* of comments.
<ScottL> i felt more or less comfortable with fabrice's comments (they seemed to be more about form) but your's is addressing some stuff that I have never heard of before
<ScottL> which isn't really hard really considering i've only been trying to help for a couple of months and never used linix before Ubuntu
<ScottL> don't take that as I'm giving up, 'cause I'm not :)  I'm still having a good time learning and helping with what I can
<persia> Do you have some time in about 15 minutes?  I'd be happy to go over each item individually.
<ScottL> we can try, i'm getting dinner and kids are running around so I might need to take a couple of minute breaks now and then
<ScottL> i know your time is valuable right now and I probably will not get to working on it again until almost the end (or even after) February
<ScottL> i need to write and record another seven songs before the end of the month ;P
<ScottL> so basically we can do it at your leisure but no need to rush on my account
<persia> heh.  I'll go through them now, but won't expect you to fix them soon :)
<persia> OK.  So the description is just a matter of form.  Some package managers use that cloze to present "user friendly" messages.
<ScottL> works for me, i'll be sure to log this also
<persia> If you don't add double-spaces, package managers are free to line-wrap in ways that may not make sense.
<persia> This is important for lists, and unimportant for prose
<persia> GTK/GTK+ is just because upstream complains when it's not used right.
<persia> manpages may seem silly, especially for GUI stuff, but people really use them.
<persia> Also, manpages end up building index files, and get mirrored to web pages, which means that the application is more discoverable.
<persia> creating them is usually fairly easy: ask in #ubuntu-motu for help.
<ScottL> I think i'll need it for the man pages :)
<persia> The icon size and number of colors stuff is to support non XDG-compliant menu systems, which some people use for very lightweight environments.
<persia> fluxbox is probably the most popular environment requiring this to be right in the audio community.
<persia> fluxbox also requires that the menu files be just right, which documentation is in /usr/share/doc/menu after installing the menu package.
<persia> I'm not sure why usr/bin/lv2rack ended up in zynjacku, but that's probably related to the install file stuff (which we'll come back to later)
<persia> The dependency on python is fairly straightforward: it's possible (but very difficult) to create an Ubuntu install without python.
<persia> "#! /usr/bin/python" or non-executable is to prevent users from shooting themselves in the foot (and they have a special knack for this)
<persia> "#! (interpreter)" at the top of a script just tells the shell to run that script with that interpreter.
<persia> Sometimes people don't insert the space, and most shells understand, but there *should* be a space.
<persia> The wiki page explains why .la files are bad more than I could.  Easiest way to deal with them is not to install them.
<persia> (they also aren't correct, but we don't either care or have to care if we don't ship them)
<persia> We generally put shared libraries in /usr/lib/${PACKAGE}/ or directly in /usr/lib because the library loading system knows to look there for stuff.  Putting it somewhere else might work, but if so, it only works by accident.
<persia> So putting it in the right place is another way to avoid toe removal.
<ScottL> speaking of /user is it common for prefix=/usr or prefix=/usr/local?
<ScottL> s/user/usr
<persia>  /usr
<persia>  /usr/local/ is for local stuff the sysadmins install directly.
<ScottL> roger
<persia> The distribution isn't supposed to mess with that
<persia> (and sysadmins aren't supposed to mess with /usr)
<persia> So, most upstream makefiles will be set up to install to /usr/local/ by default when building from source (this is correct)
<persia> But when we package it, we install to /usr instead
<persia> Having the library call exit() directly just ends the program without warning the user in any way.
<persia> This can be confusing :)
<persia> But that's hard to fix, and changes the behaviour and requirements for code that uses the library: it deserves an upstream bug, but there's nothing you need to do for it.
<persia> (well, other than file the bug).
<persia> Do you understand the bug?
<ScottL> nedko has been hot and cold about interacting with me but i'll file the bug
<persia> nedko is an odd, brilliant man.  I think he has mixed feelings about all the rest of us, perhaps in part because we don't have his depth of comprehension :)
<persia> But his code is *wonderful* and well worth trying to understand.
<persia> He might even have a really good reason to do it this way, although it's usually not ideal.
<ScottL> well, i've started understanding the makefile ;P  it's a start
<persia> heh :)
<persia> The long description for lv2jack just doesn't make sense to anyone who isn't already steeped in the environment.
<persia> It's fine for you and I, but my mother won't install that package because she won't understand that she wants it.
<ScottL> yeah, i felt bad about that because i just stole it from his website and it's was rather terse
<persia> Cribbing from the zynjacku and jackrack descriptions, I suspect you can come up with something better.
<persia> (because it's a mix of the two, really)
<persia> changelog comment is just a form thing.  The syntax (LP: #nnnn) closes the bug, so you don7t need to explicitly declare that.
<persia> You can get more on optional/extra from policy, but I think my comment (which I put in about 50% of packages I review) sums it up.
<persia> Uploaders: only means anything in Debian.
<persia> The LGPL-2.1 bit is because you listed the Files as LGPL-2+ and LGPL.  The idea of that copyright file format is to make it machine-readable, so you really need to worry about making the strings match.
<persia> There's two ways to solve it: either change the License: tags for the Files: stanzas, or for the License: stanza.
<ScottL> what about files that did not define copyright?
<persia> Putting in the short-form of the licenses and referencing /usr/share/common-licenses is intended to save space on user harddrives (nobody needs 2000 copies of the GPL)
<persia> Files that don't define copyright, or have licensing can't be distributed.
<ScottL> re: /usr/share/common-license   that's what I did originally but dep5 seemed to imply that the _entire_ license should be there, which seemed silly to me
<persia> It's times like that you should ask in here or in -motu for help :)
<ScottL> i saw some .h files and some .c files without copyright     http://revu.ubuntuwire.com/report.py/legal?upid=7861
<ScottL> i shall
<ScottL> ask for help, that is
<persia> double-check those: at least the few I examined were just licensecheck parse failures.
<persia> "public domain" isn't valid in many countries (especially ones with civil law rather than common law).  A good example of how to release rights to source in all jurisdictions is http://revu.ubuntuwire.com/revu1-incoming/ccscript-1001231639/ccscript-4.1.3/cmodel.sh
<persia> That's another upstream bug
<persia> Also, you didn't identify the public domain stuff in debian/copyright (needs it's own section)
<persia> (it's not legal for me to use it, but it is legal for Ubuntu to distribute, just because of where I live and where the Ubuntu main mirrors are)
<ScottL> i went off the legal link i posted earlier and didn't see any public domain stuff :(
<persia> Yeah, that's only the output of licensecheck.  You're supposed to read all the source files to check :)
<persia> (which is different from reading all the source: you ought be able to tell at a glance if something has a license, etc.)
<ScottL> well, next time i package i'll be choosing an app with fewer files then LOL
<persia> When licensecheck works, it's lovely, but when it doesn't work, we fall back to human intelligence.
<persia> We're just better at understanding prose than licensecheck.
<persia> I usually do something like `less $(find . -print)` and press :n lots.
<persia> I keep a separate editor window open to take notes
<persia> The ,desktop file bits are just based on my past experience with .desktop files.  Doesn't make that much difference, but can make things nicer.
<persia> Same for the 8-bit xpm, and using a nicer graphic.
<persia> And dh_install is tricky.
<persia> So, the way dh_isntall works is as follows:
<persia> The package builds, and installs everything to debian/tmp/...
<persia> Then you have several .install files.
<persia> Each consists of a set of lines, in either of two formats.
<persia> A single pathname with no leading / will grab a file or a directory from debian/tmp/ and copy it to debian/${PACKAGE}/
<persia> For example if debian/lv2rack.install contained the line "usr/bin/lv2rack", that file would be put in the lv2rack directory.
<ScottL> because no leading /
<persia> A pathname followed by whitespace followed by another path will move files, using either files in the source directory or in debian/tmp as the source of the move, and debian/${PACKAGE} as the target.
<persia> Right, so .../debian/tmp/usr/bin/lv2rack -> .../debian/lv2rack/usr/bin/lv2rack
<persia> For example, if debian/zynjacku had the line "debian/zynjacku.xpm usr/share/pixmaps" this would copy that file to that directory under debian/zynjacku
<persia> You can also add stuff from debian/tmp if you like, so you can do a two statement line like "usr/lib/zynjacku/*.so usr/lib/zynjacku" to install the .so file (assuming it got put in debian/tmp/usr/lib/zynjacku/ in the first place)
<persia> Or if it got installed to the wrong place, "usr/share/misc/zynjacku*so usr/lib/zynjacku/" would put it in the right place.
<persia> When the binary packages get built, the tree of files to install is taken from debian/${PACKAGE}
<persia> this is probably why you end up with extra stuff in the zynjacku package and not enough in the lv2rack package (because of the DESTDIR setting)
<persia> That all make sense?
<ScottL> lol, well not ALL...at least not yet
<persia> Heh.  Questions?
<persia> I think I covered all my comments.
<ScottL> a side question that perhaps you will not be able answer about when I did get zynjacku and lv2rack isntalled
<ScottL> i can run either from the terminal and it will start jack if jack isn't already running
<persia> OK.
<ScottL> but when i picked it from the menu both would not start because jack wasn't running
<persia> Right.
<persia> I've never understood that issue.
<ScottL> if jack was already running both would start from the menu
<persia> I ended up not maintaining a package in Debian bacause of it.
<ScottL> is it something I bring up with nedko?
<persia> JACK can't always be running : it blocks the sound card, which many people don7t like (including my mother).
<persia> No need.  We tell the users to use qjackctl
<ScottL> other apps have the same issue i believe
<persia> As hansfbaier gets his set of stuff in shape, we can recommend that instead (if it' ready)
<persia> Yeah, everything has the same issue.
<ScottL> what is hansfbaier working on?
<persia> I think it has something to do with the way the GUI starts stuff.
<persia> jackpanel
<persia> and some other similar stuff.
<ScottL> oh yeah, i read you two talking about that a few days ago
<persia> Really cool UI, but unfortunately needs packaging help, and he's trying to do both upstream and packaging.
<ScottL> jackpanel is a gui lv2 host?
<persia> http://www.hans-baier.de/wordpress/jackpanel
<ScottL> huh, it's not what I thought it was then, but it lets you do connections also right?
<persia> That's still under development.
<persia> But connections != hosts.
<persia> But it means one doesn't have to run qjackctl & patchage
<persia> That can all be in the panel, and one can then keep screen real-estate open for plugins, ardour, etc.
<ScottL> i (think) i just came to grips with patchage and now it's going away!   kidding
<persia> I don't think it's going away.
<persia> But I think most people don't really need all of it.
<persia> And nedko has a prettier one available anyway.
<ScottL> well it's somewhat true, i just set up a template for Ardour and patchage for my most common connections
<persia> Right.
<ScottL> which one of nedko's are you talking about?
<ScottL> the prettier one
<persia> My mother mostly just opens patchage to connect her mic & instrument inputs & hydrogen to muse, and then leaves it on a different desktop.
<persia> She only uses it because the qjackctl connection tool confused her.
 * persia hunts for a link
<ScottL> your mother uses ubuntu studio to record music?  that's fantastic!
<ScottL> do you record music as well?
<ScottL> i wondered about your connection to ubuntu studio - well, everyone who frequents this channel actually
<persia> No.  I just fool with syntheised and mangled loops :)
<persia> I used to spend lots of time playing with hydrogen and freqtweak, but much less now.
<persia> I got involved with Studio because I kept patching packages that we shipped.
<persia> My mother uses it because I work on it, and she likes the ideas behind Ubuntu (plus, it's good enough for her)
<persia> http://ladish.org/wiki/lpatchage
<ScottL> yes, i've seen that before but didn't really look at it closely to be honest, nedko has done quite a bit of programming
<persia> Indeed.
<persia> And *lots* of it work that directly improves the set of software available to our users.
<ScottL> i'm so retro in some ways, maybe not 'retro' but simplistic, i find what works and tend not to deviate
<persia> heh.
<ScottL> i know I can make connections in ardour but i tend to still use qjackctl -> connect and just moved over to patchage
<ScottL> because I already know how to do it and i don't want to waste time dorking with something that mgiht not work when i need it to
<persia> I totally understand.  I intentionally avoid making connections in muse because I like separation of concerns.
 * persia should really review ardour again, but the MIDI bits never seem to quite be there
<ScottL> of course this mentality is why i also stayed with hardy and wanted to backport jack and ardour to it
<ScottL> it seemed like audio tended to break each update (it probably didn't but it seemed it was)
<ScottL> and i finally got my system where flash (with sound) and sound in general all worked and didn't want to have to dork with it anymore
<ScottL> but karmic (in general) seems much more in line so I have high hopes for further releases of ubuntu studio and i'll probably upgrade each release
 * ScottL needs to get daughter to do her spelling homework
<persia> ScottL: If you have time to test lucid along the way, that's the best way to make sure the upgrade would be clean.
<persia> Of course, this requires an extra computer, or extra hard drive, or some such :)
<ScottL> well, i currently have four partitions but i'll be eliminating two (hardy) soon :)   but yes, I plan on getting rid of the karmic one and testing lucid in its place
<ScottL> but that will have to wait until after February though
<persia> Fair enough: you've all those songs to write :)
<ScottL> that'll be easy, stock drum pattern, two passes of rhythm guitar, one bass and a solo (over most of it) and I'll be done but I want to
<ScottL> do more vocal stuff which is not as easy for me as the previously listed formula
<ScottL> but this is all an optional, voluntary project just to do it
<ScottL> http://www.rpmchallenge.com/ is the project
<ScottL> i'm even looking forward to next years challenge and transcribing some of my acoustic stuff, putting it into muse (or something similar) and having it done on piano...or tuba
<TheMuso`> Why not use lilipond?
<ScottL> hey ckontros, how are you doing, you're on kinda late tonight
<ckontros> TheMuso`: Can you merge this and upload a new package? https://code.launchpad.net/~psyke83/ubuntustudio-look/UbuntuStudio/+merge/18821
<ScottL> TheMuso`, i can do that, i haven't done any music other than recording live instruments (except for hydrogen) so far
<ckontros> ScottL: I'm well. Just tinkering a little.
<TheMuso`> ckontros: Is there an official merge request on launchpad for that?
<ScottL> i have until next february to get those things (midi, etc) under my belt :)
<ckontros> TheMuso: Isn't that it? :)
 * TheMuso` looks
<TheMuso`> ckontros: yes it is
 * TheMuso` reviews
<ckontros> TheMuso: Last couple of dailies I've grabbed wouldnt boot in VM. Are yours working fine?
<TheMuso`> ckontros: Haven't tested.
<ckontros> Ok. Ill pull a fresh one tomorrow and test.
<TheMuso`> ckontros: Merged, and uploading new package now.
<ckontros> killer
<ckontros> Did stochastic or anyone figure out a new wallpaper?
<TheMuso`> not afaik
<ckontros> So, I see a little about what's going on because of bug reports but can anyone fill me in? Anything going on like, pulse audio getting built with JACK support? :)
<ScottL> well, the jack MIR is still going on and we (meaning stochastic) was supposed to get patches together for building a few apps with jack support
<ckontros> Yeah. That's most of the bug-mail Ive got. Anything else?
<ScottL> TheMuso`or stochastic (or the janitor) should have more depth on that than me :P
<TheMuso`> Not shipping RT kernel on discs, because its 2.6.31 and is hard to maintain post release. So going preempt kernel for amd64, no flavour for i386 because the kernel team don't want any more than 2 i386 flavours/.
<ckontros> TheMuso: So we're shipping stock -generic for i386?
<TheMuso`> ckontros: Yeah seems so.
<TheMuso`> alessio is maintaing RT in a PPA though which will be noted in release notes.
<ckontros> Wait. Why the hell do they even care since we're maintaining it?
<TheMuso`> ckontros: the maintenance issue is with SRUs post release
<TheMuso`> and security
<ckontros> Sure but the kernel team isn't responsible for -rt. Shouldnt matter.
<TheMuso`> ckontros: nothing to do with the kernel team
<TheMuso`> its called lack of man power.
<ckontros> And hell, SRU's wouldnt be an issue if they got around to reviewing and approving them.
<TheMuso`> If I had enough time to push RT SRUs, I would, but I don't.
<ckontros> Ahh. You said "because the kernel team don't want any more than 2 i386 flavours" so, that's what I was going on.
<TheMuso`> right I was talking about the separate rt package
<ScottL> i'll be able to upgrade my recording box now, i'll "have" to...at least that's what i'll tell my wife :)
<ckontros> ? Im confused. :)
<ckontros> TheMuso: Is the kernel team stopping us from having -rt in the archive and on disk?
<TheMuso`> ckontros: we are not shipping the rt kernel on the discs due to lack of manpower with maintenance.
<TheMuso`> ckontros: no
<ckontros> Ok. Gotcha.
<ckontros> I'd *almost* shutdown the project to restructure. At this stage, shipping -generic feels, dirty.
<ckontros> :P
<ckontros> Like it shouldnt be.
<ckontros> (shipping generic)
<TheMuso`> I know what you mean
<ScottL> can the ubuntu studio ppa already be in the repositories for ubuntu studio? off of a clean install i mean?
<TheMuso`> ScottL: not easily.
<ScottL> so all users who want to upgrade to -lowlatency (or -preempt or whatever) will have to do it manually :(
<TheMuso`> It will be in the release notes.
<ScottL> TheMuso`, is it worth it to start a release notes wiki page?
<ScottL> rather than wait until the day before release? 
<ckontros> Sure.
<TheMuso`> ScottL: yes
<TheMuso`> Jack MIR has been given thumbs up.
<ScottL> yay - that's a pretty big accomplishment :)
<persia> \o/
<crimsun> and I've just uploaded pulse with jack enabled
<crimsun> (along with other fixes recommended by Lennart)
<crimsun> I think I owe mterry a few beers
<TheMuso`> I think we all do.
<TheMuso`> So pulse will be dep wait till the packages are promoted then.
<crimsun> indeed
<ScottL> so how will pulse and jack work now?  doesn't pulse automagically stop when jack is started?
<ScottL> currently:  pulse stop when jack is started that is
<TheMuso`> ScottL: Not quite. Hopefully we can get jack2 into lucid+1 and use dbus to tigh them together.
<ScottL> so, until jack2 is ready then pulse and jack will continue to act the same as they do now?
<ScottL> and is jack2 going into debian first? or will we have it first?
<TheMuso`> ScottL: This is what needs to be worked out. I'd like it in Debian first.
<TheMuso`> ScottL: The issue is whether we want jack2 to sit alongside of jack, or replace jack.
<jussi01> wow! great work lads!
<crimsun> ...and alsa-plugins uploaded with jack enabled
<jussi01> crimsun: ++ 
<jussi01> nice work
 * abogani waves
<jussi01> hi abogani"
<abogani> jussi01: Hi!
<stochastic> Can anyone with upload powers look at the patch for building xine against jack on Bug #152487 <- TheMuso` crimsun persia etc... before feature freeze becomes solid?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 152487 in xine-lib "Jack output for xine apps " [Low,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/152487
 * abogani listen Frankie goes to Hollywood...
<stochastic> also Bug #360590
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 360590 in ubuntustudio "Please compile portaudio with Jack support" [Medium,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/360590
<ScottL> it also looks like libffado also made it into the main :)
<crimsun> yep, due to it being one of j-a-c-k's build-deps
 * crimsun fixes alsa-plugins
<ScottL_> i added to the working release notes wiki page      https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/WorkingReleaseNotes
<ScottL_> i started one for lucid and was able to add a lot more than I thought I would :)
<persia> ScottL_: realtime won't be default for amd64 : preempt will be default.  Realtime will be available for in the PPA for both i386 and mad64
<persia> Also, I'm not sure we applied to be part of the Long Term Release.
<persia> So there may be no guarantee that our applications will get long-term support.
<persia> (we could try ourselves, but I'm not confident we have enough developers)
<ScottL_> i will change the wiki then :)         thanks for the checking and feedback
<ScottL_> quick fix - i'll reread back over it later (i had made the original during lunch but I'm back at work now)
<ScottL_> if there is anything that should be added, i'll be happy to make any additions, moderations or deletions if you just want to say something here about it (e.g. I know TheMuso` and persia are probably really, really busy right now)
 * persia is kinda recovering from the pre-FF marathon, so not particularly busy, but similarly not particularly inclined to do much right now
<ScottL_> persia: just to clarify -realtime vs -preempt, in synaptic the package says -rt but is that just semantics?  it really is preempt kernel?
<persia> No.
<persia> The -rt kernel is different, but not up-to-date (I think)
<persia> Oh, it is kinda up-to-date, but not perfectly.
<persia> But that's not the -preempt kernel.
<stochastic> hey fabrice_sp and persia is there any chance one of you could look at Bug #360590 and Bug #152487 ?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 360590 in ubuntustudio "Please compile portaudio with Jack support" [Medium,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/360590
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 152487 in xine-lib "Jack output for xine apps " [Low,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/152487
<stochastic> patches are ready to be uploaded.  Do we need FFE bugs as well now?
<persia> stochastic: That requires main upload rights, which neither of us have.
<stochastic> persia, where would be the best place to poke someone about this?
<ScottL_> dtchen might have those rights, no?
<persia> Have you subscribed ubuntu-main-sponsors to the bugs?
<stochastic> yes
<persia> he does, as do others.
<persia> But subscribing the sponsors is the best right now.
<persia> Otherwise, wait, and either of the core-devs who are regularly in this channel will probably see it in backscroll.
<stochastic> okay, I'll sit and wait then
<persia> I think we all know we want it, so it's just a matter of time.
<persia> If freeze exceptions are required, they ought breeze through.
<TheMuso`> Building portaudio with jack support may need to be considered carefully. DOing so will put libjack onto the CD which may be a problem.
<TheMuso`> Xine is not a problem however.
<persia> Doesn't kubuntu pull xine as a phonon backend still?
<ScottL_> why would libjack on the cd be a problem?
<TheMuso`> I don't know.
<TheMuso`> ScottL_: Space for one.
<ScottL_> i'm guessing that libjack isn't necessarily that big, but that the cd is rather full already
<persia> 187k, which adds up fast over time.
<persia> Right.
<persia> TheMuso`: libjack0 is already in Task: ubuntu-desktop
<persia> It may be that it's already on the CD
<TheMuso`> persia: hrm ok. Probably won't know till the next daily images.
<persia> Gets pulled by libasound2-plugins at least
<TheMuso`> Point.
<TheMuso`> Although I was hoping that would be a separate package.
<persia> Maybe later, but not as currently implemented.
<TheMuso`> No need for jack anything to be on the CD by default, most people don't need it.
<persia> For jackd & friends, I agree.  WIth the way shared libraries work, the core lib might end up there.
<TheMuso`> right
<TheMuso`> In which case portaudio linking against jack won't be bad.
<persia> Well, it's 187k, but we're probably going to end up with that there anyway.
<TheMuso`> yeah
 * TheMuso` checks latest daily images.
<TheMuso`> ok not there yet
<persia> No, tomorrow.
<persia> Or rather, later today :)
<persia> Or ~11 hours from now, however one counts.
<TheMuso`> yeah
<TheMuso`> In which case I'll tend to those two bugs shortly.
<ScottL_> did anyone ever tell you guys that you rock?  they should.  you do!  :)
<TheMuso`> Thanks
<TheMuso`> Right, portaudio debdiff uploaded, thanks stochastic.
<TheMuso`> Yay can't build xine atm due to package installability breakage. :)
<persia> heh
 * TheMuso` refreshes his local mirror in case the problem is transient and fixed in the archive.
<TheMuso`> Otherwise, time to go digging.
<TheMuso`> Yay ocaml breaks installability. :S
<TheMuso`> Ah ok graphviz is affected by the ocaml transition.
 * TheMuso` sighs. I really don't enjoy these wild goose chaces sometimes.
<TheMuso`> Oh yay. A launchpad/soyuz bug (i think) regarding not handling provides properly for package metadata.
<persia> How so?
<persia> Because virtual provides don't work by design.
<TheMuso`> libgraphviz-dev in debian depends on ocaml-base-nox-3.11.2 but due to provides, ocaml-base-nox ets installed.
<TheMuso`> ocaml-base-nox provides ocaml-base-nox-3.11.2
<persia> Which breaks the transition?
<TheMuso`> which break libgraphviz-dev installability
<TheMuso`> s/break/breaks/
<TheMuso`> so we need to carry another change ingraphviz to depend on a versioned ocaml-base-nox
<TheMuso`> instead of a ocaml-base-nox-$bla dependency
<TheMuso`> I think thats the best approach anyway.
<TheMuso`> and all to rebuild xine...
<persia> Oh, it's a versioned depends on ocaml-base-nox-3.11.2 ?
<persia> Yeah, that's annoying.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2010-02-19
<TheMuso`> persia: no not versioned, libgraphviz-dev depends on ocaml-base-3.11.2 which is provided by ocaml-base-nox. So libgraphviz-dev needs to depend on ocaml-base-nox but as a versioned depend, and not a package name
<persia> Provides: should handle that :/
<TheMuso`> yeah but thats whats broken
<TheMuso`> LP is not filling in something properly somewhere for it to work properly
<persia> Which bit?  The builders?
<TheMuso`> Ok here is one way to see what I mean. Go into a sid chroot, run: apt-cache depends libgraphviz-dev and do the same command in a lucid chroot.
<TheMuso`> you will notice a slight difference with the depends on ocaml-base-nox
<persia> 3.11.1 vs. 3.11.2
<persia> (lucid vs. sid)
 * persia checks
<TheMuso`> but there is something more:
<TheMuso`> dah graphviz does just need a rebuild.
 * TheMuso` checks that again
<TheMuso`> to be sure
 * TheMuso` uploads to PPA to provide an archive point to test instlal from.
<TheMuso`> install even
<persia> Ah, right.  Since the new ocaml-base-nox no longer provides 3.11.1, it can't work.
<persia> The PPA game should work just fine.  We probably need to improve the NBS tools to catch these better.
<TheMuso`> right
<persia> But I think LP is doing the right thing: I think it's the state of lucid that's broken.
<TheMuso`> graphviz is part of the ocaml transition anyway
<TheMuso`> so the task is assigned to me but I just need to test.
<persia> TheMuso`: Is there an accessibility IRC channel?
<TheMuso`> persia: FOr Ubuntu specifically, or in general?
<persia> For ubuntu specifically, and specifically about development.  In other words, is there somewhere better than #ubuntu-devel to ask you about changes to accessibility packages?
<TheMuso`> #ubuntu-accessibility is the best bet.
<persia> Thanks :~)
<TheMuso`> np
<ScottL> earlier TheMuso` mentioned getting something for lucid+1, what does this mean exactly and does it only apply to LTS versions?
<persia> Often we can't accomplish a goal within a release cycle.
<persia> So we defer to release+1
<persia> It's just shorthand because sabdfl hasn't announced the new name yet.
<persia> (unless I missed something)
<ScottL> gotcha and of course sabdfl is mark
<persia> RIght.
<persia> Self Appointed Benevolent Dictator For Life
<ScottL> i was disappointed (but understanding) that more lv2 apps didn't get into lucid, but i also wonder if we have more than other dedicated audio distros
<persia> Hard to say, unless one goes and runs a comparison.
<persia> Personally, I don't think of it as a competition: everyone has as many as they can support.
<ScottL> i don't want competition, rather I would like ubuntu studio to be a amongst the premier or to have distinction (and not just because of ubuntu)
<persia> Heh.  That makes sense.
<persia> I think we ought just add as many as we can.
<persia> I think we ought share everything we add with Debian.
<persia> Lots of other distros end up with it, but we did our part.
<persia> I'd rather have a reputation for generally being a leader in the area of getting new stuff packaged than worry about competition from other distributions.
<persia> That makes the other distributions more likely to share with us.
<ScottL> i defintely agree with sharing where we can (like debian)
<persia> Something to consider is that it's always possible to construct a distribution that has more audio applications than Ubuntu Studio.
<persia> One simply mirrors Ubuntu, and adds an application.
<persia> So we'll do better to build a reputation for having enough, and having them integrated well, etc.
<ScottL> using remastersys i made a ubuntu respin with msifits them, usplash, custome installed apps and practically every misfits song ever recorded
<ScottL> s/them/theme
<persia> Right.  It's not hard :)
<persia> So, since we can never win on having the *most*, it's not worth trying, as long as we have enough.
<persia> (although more is better, if we can support it: this is a function of how many developers can package how many applications each cycle)
<ScottL> making the usplash with progress bar took a while though but it looks cool because the progress bar was the word "misfits"
<ScottL> i don't want to have the most, just wanted to be a leader in lv2 movement
<persia> Oh, I think we're in good shape there.
<persia> We've definitely made good progress: enough that lv2 is usable on Ubuntu.
<TheMuso`> Great, graphviz rebuild is all thats needed. Now I can upload that, and get onto actually uploading a jack-enabled xine. :)
<ScottL> yay
<ScottL> persia, you reminded me that I needed to send a 'thank you' email to jonas for building hydrogen
<persia> Everyone likes "Thank you" :)
<ScottL> well, he also rather agreeably pointed out some of my email etiquette deficiencies when he could have been haughty and nasty, that also deserves a thank you
<ScottL> and thirdly, showing our sincere appreciation would serve to strengthen the relationship between us and debian multimedia
<ScottL_> persia (and anyone else) - i mentioned recorded some music, here is my latest (and I'm not going to keep spamming my music)
<ScottL_> http://fossmusicproject.org/public/song3.mp3
<ScottL_> if can get a couple of hours left alone i can get this type of thing done, but I get very few stituations where I'm afforded contiguous time
<ScottL_> but it's a single pass of bass and another single pass of guitar, obviously first takes then and no fixes, so yes, there are some bad notes but I'm pushng for quantitative rather qualitative music at this point ;P
<ScottL_> and hydrogen drums should be noted as well, although it's a charmingly off meter pattern
<abogani> Cool
<ScottL> thanks abogani
<ScottL> abogani, stochastic sent out an email about testing lucid (which I will be doing) and remembered you asking for kernel testing
<ScottL> is there a good place that documents ways to test the kernel - on i386 and probably -generic vs what we have in our ppa
<abogani> ScottL: Unfortunately no. People should do the same things already do with -rt and see if kernel  -preempt/-lowlatency is enough for they needs.
<abogani> Obviously the best case it that -preempt were enough and UKT release it also on -i386.
<ScottL> abogani, i saw one of your emails which had some tables with testing data, is that something I could do also?  is there a testing package or suite?
<abogani> ScottL: Package: rt-tests, Program: cyclictest, Command line (that I use): "sudo cyclictest -n -t5 -p99 -q" so I generate a lot of load and after some minutes return to shell and press CTRL-C (cyclictest stop and print results where less is better)
<ScottL> abogani, i will do that, thanks!
 * stochastic is very pleased with the improvements this cycle (provided we're not crippled somehow) and now wants to bear down on theme & website plans
<persia> We just passed feature-freeze, so the chances of crippling are decidedly low.
<persia> And now is the time for polish, which makes theme and website ideal targets :)
<persia> (well, and making sure we actually build an image)
 * persia checks
<persia> Hrm.  Seems some trimming could be done.  We're putting a livecd installer on our DVD for some reason.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2010-02-20
<crimsun> thanks for all the hard work getting libjack0 rdepends done, folks!
<ScottL> not trying to be picky but it would appear that hydrogen-0.9.4 didn't make it into lucid according to bug #495507
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 495507 in hydrogen "Please sync hydrogen 0.9.4-1 from Debian unstable" [Undecided,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/495507
<ScottL> i realise there was a lot going on just before the FF and of course I could have contact debian multimedia sooner
<ScottL> but anyway, i'll be moving on to some testing in the next couple of days (and hopefully some community documentation again as well)
<ScottL> cheers everyone
<ScottL> can someone explain the difference between ISO's from http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/ubuntustudio/daily/   and one's found at  http://iso.qa.ubuntu.com/qatracker/build/ubuntustudio/all?
<ScottL> when would you choose to download one in preference to the other?
<crimsun> huh?
<crimsun> the latter URL gives me "We are not testing at the moment"
<crimsun> am I missing something?
<ScottL> i did not understand that either and was hoping it was a lack on my knowledge and would become clear when someone explained more
<crimsun> well, I don't see any list of isos at the latter, so I can't tell you anything
<crimsun> normally there's a link from the latter to something resembling the former
<crimsun> it's usually dated, however
<ScottL> would it be fair to say that th former is "cutting edge" with daily builds and the latter is more formalized for testing and documentation purposes?
<crimsun> I don't think so
<crimsun> again, normally the latter links to a specific dated iso hosted on the former
<ScottL> i'm hoping to aggregate the information i gain and make a ubuntu studio community testing documentation page to help the community at large and the launchpad testing team specifically
<ScottL> well, to be honest, stochastic has already started something and I wanted to flesh it out more
#ubuntustudio-devel 2011-02-14
<ailo> abogani: -lowlatency is not performing as good as before. Do you know why?
<ailo> Performance while watching flash videos seems to have improved, but I can't get as low latency as before.
<persia> ailo: As you appear to have found issues with the change to 2.6.38 for both -generic and -lowlatency, I wonder if it's something related to the version change, rather than something about specific binaries.
<ailo> persia: I should do some more testing. I should compare some different kernels to see if it is only kernel related too.
<ailo> persia: Do you think it's possible to tune priority outside of the kernel?
<persia> Yes, it could be something else, but the key is that you need to consider the kernel version as much as the config.
<persia> I don't understand the question about priority
<ailo> If I wasn't dreaming, I saw a huge difference with the same -generic kernel (2.6.38-1) after a few days when I tested again
<persia> That points at something else then.
<ailo> persia: Maybe nouveau has higher priority then before?
<persia> Huh?
<ailo> just guessing. I'm thinking maybe it's unity-related somehow.
<ailo> I don't know anything about what could adjust the balance in setting priorities
<persia> What do you mean "setting priorities"?  Also, what does this have to do with nouveau or unity?
<ailo> persia: I'm just thinking some work has been done on Unity, which causes audio devices to get less priority. 
<ailo> As I said, I have no idea what would do that, or how.
<persia> What do you mean by "priority"?
<ailo> What should I call it, when jack is less reliable than before? I guess it could be anything distracting it.
<persia> I don't understand at all.
<persia> Please describe the issue you are seeing, specifically, and without guessing as to source.
<ailo> persia: I get occasional xruns using 64 frames/period. Just a couple of weeks ago, I got zero.
<ailo> Now, I can probably use 128 frames/period with getting 0 xruns
<ailo> The most recent change has been with graphics. Flash has improved, but it doesn't seem to have affected audio performance
<persia> Ah, OK.
<persia> You'd want to check recent upgrades, but I'd suspect JACK, the kernel, or the core libraries before anything else.
<persia> edge applications are unlikely to affect anything.
<persia> Except in the case where some application has periodic or similar resource use that interrupts current operations.  You might check the usage of the various indicators and applets: I know network-manager was unpredictable: it may be that more things are becoming so (in which case, these may be better removed)
<ailo> persia: The -generic was performing as well as -lowlatency for a while (2.6.38-1), but stopped doing that. Now, it's not working that great at all.
<ailo> Seems like qjackctl is freezing up Youtube, even when jackd is not running.
<persia> That's highly unlikely, unless you have hardware memory issues.
<ailo> It's only flash freezing. Nothing else
<ailo> I mean, changing to another flash video makes the browser freeze, sorry
<ailo> Trying to see what log to look into
<ailo> As soon as I quit qjackctl the browser starts working again, so I'm assuming this has something to do with PA
<persia> Ah, yes.  It may.  I forgot about the qjackctl/PA thing.
<ailo> persia: right, of course. qjackctl suspends PA entirely, while jackd only grabs the device that is to be used, if not available
<persia> Right.  That needs cleaning up.
<abogani> weird
<ailo_at> I added a new set of test results in https://wiki.ubuntu.com/RealTime
<ailo_at> 2.6.38-1 lowlatency seems to perform as well as before, while the same version of  -generic has changed
<scott-work> TheMuso: did you push the patch for the gnome-classic xsession bug?  i got a bug email and just wanted to make sure what was going on :)
<abogani> ailo_at: Amd64 or i386? Do you have -1-lowlatency and -3-lowlatency installed side by side on the same machine?
<ailo_at> abogani: I must admit I have yet not tested on amd64. I will install it today.
<abogani> ailo_at: It isn't necessary.
<ailo_at> These tests were all done on the same machine
<abogani> No packages update in between, right?
<ailo_at> Not between the tests made on the same day
<scott-work> abogani:  how do i get *your* kernel from git?
<scott-work> abogani: i'm not really familiar with git but i understand it's a cvs much like other and i can find the commands easy enough
<scott-work> abogani: but from which repo do i need to get your kernel and how do i make sure it is yours
<ailo_at> I did "git clone git://kernel.ubuntu.com/abogani/ubuntu-natty-lowlatency.git aboganis-lowlatency"
<ailo_at> scott-work: If you just want to get the source, that command should do.
<scott-work> ailo_at: thanks!
<scott-work> i wasn't sure which repository or how to get his directly but this should do it
<scott-work> abogani: this is the kernel you wanted me to get isn't it?
<abogani> scott-work: Yeah.
<scott-work> abogani: i will download it tonight then :)
<scott-work> abogani: do you want to mention something now for me to look at in particular tonight?  or wait until tomorrow morning?
<abogani> scott-work: Clone also meta git tree.
<scott-work> by the way, "tonight" for me is about +10 hours hence and "tomorrow morning" is about +24 hours
<abogani> scott-work: Ok
<ailo_at> scott-work: Is the video task-sel still supposed to fail?
<scott-work> ailo_at: no, no...it was fixed when we dropped qdvdauthor from the seeds
<ailo_at> scott-work: My install failed today
<scott-work> ailo_at: i say "fixed", but maybe there is another problem happening (or continuing to happen)
<ailo_at> Also, I have corrupted graphics, so I'm unable to use the system at all :(
<scott-work> ailo_at: are you installing this onto a vanilla ubuntu install and then "upgrading" to ubuntu studio?
<scott-work> or a full install from dvd?
<ailo_at> scott-work: Full install from DVD, except for the video task-sel
<TheMuso> ScottL: Yes that was me.
<TheMuso> I've also updated to the latest Debian revisions of jack and jack2, as well as requested a sync for latest libffado from Debian.
<ScottL> TheMuso, i didn't think it would be anyone else but i wanted to make sure nothing funny was going on
<TheMuso> heh ok.
<ScottL> TheMuso, plus i wanted to say, "thank you" :)
<TheMuso> np
<ScottL> so ailo_at , i might try to install the metapackage on my laptop just to see what happens
<ailo_at> ScottL: I should retry my installation. It was amd64. Video didn't install as I said and for some reason graphics were corrupted. Grub menu had tiny, tiny fonts.
<ScottL> ailo_at, i don't know really
<ScottL> ailo_at, i remember that when i was testing the latest alpha image i had a failed installation on that computer
<ScottL> which as also suffering trouble with kernel panic
<ScottL> i thought it was my computer to be honest at the time and didn't pursue it
<ailo_at> Me too (thinking it was my computer)
<ScottL> lol
<ScottL> i hope my computer doesn't explode when i try to install the video-meta :P
<ailo_at> I would blame my corrupted graphics on the video driver. Maybe it was guessing my monitor settings wrong?
<ailo_at> ScottL: So only two daily builds are saved?
<ScottL> that is all that i am aware of
<ailo_at> ScottL: Perhaps better to install from the alpha image, then. That should work, I guess.
<ailo_at> I'm giving it another go today
<ScottL> ailo_at, not necessarily, (alpha image should work)
<ScottL> when installing the video-meta i had some weirdness going on with mime-types
<ScottL> i took a screen shot of the output but not sure who should see it :/
<ScottL> going outside with kids/dogs
#ubuntustudio-devel 2011-02-15
<ScottL> ailo_at, tonight i'm going to download the latest ubuntu studio iso and install it on my spare computer (the ones that was balking with the latest kernel) and see if it fails at sofware install again
<ScottL> ailo_at, can you help me find the proper logs if it fails again?
<ailo_at> ScottL: I don't know where install logs are saved. Do you?
<ailo_at> ScottL: /var/log/installer/*. I guess that is the place to look. I will look into it as well.
<ScottL> ailo_at, yeah, in the shower i realized that you could look also
<ScottL> i get so egocentric about accomplishing things sometimes :/
<ailo_at> paultag: ping
<paultag> ailo_at: pong
<ailo_at> paultag: I pushed my initial version of ubuntustudio-controls to gitorious. Would you like to work on it from there?
<paultag> one sec ailo_at 
<ailo_at> So far it only inits the glade file
<paultag> ailo_at: sorry, had to help someone in the lab
<paultag> ailo_at: I'll check it out and merge it :)
<paultag> ailo_at: send me the URL, if you don't mind
<ailo_at> paultag: Which is better, merging, or creating a team of 2, where the code would be owned by the team?
<ailo_at> paultag: git://gitorious.org/ubuntustudio-controls/ubuntustudio-controls.git
<scott-upstairs> heh, downloading the iso image and alessio's kernel at the same time doesn't get things done fast
<scott-upstairs> ailo_at, how do i get alessio's meta files as well?
<scott-upstairs> can i browse the git repo to find it with firefox?
<ailo_at> scott-stairs: You can google it, but let me help you with the url (loading slow)
<ailo_at> scott-stairs: Youll see aboganis git repos at the top of the list http://kernel.ubuntu.com/git
<ailo_at> Here's the meta: git://kernel.ubuntu.com/abogani/ubuntu-natty-meta-lowlatency.git
<ailo_at> paultag: Another way would be for me to add your ssh key to the repo. Which ever way you want.
<scott-upstairs> heh, WAY easier than i thought it would be find the meta file, thanks ailo_at  :)
<ailo_at> paultag: No, better with either a team, or you request to merge. (just looking at the options since this is new to me still).
<ailo_at> scott-upstairs: Was the video issue resolved before alpha2?
<ailo_at> tasksel video, that is
<ScottL> ailo_at, i believe it was
<ailo_at> ScottL: It failed for me when installing from Alpha2 just now.
<scott-upstairs> ailo_at, can you get to any logs?
<scott-upstairs> was it during software install?
<scott-upstairs> hi JamesHarrison !
<JamesHarrison> Hi
<ailo_at> scott-upstairs: Looking for them now. It was when installing from scratch. Video tasksel won't work.
<ailo_at> scott-upstairs: In /var/log/installer/syslog was a record of the whole installation, but nothing about the failure to install ubuntustudio-video
<ailo_at> scott-upstairs: But installing the video tasksel from synaptic after logging in for the first time works. What is different when installing from scratch?
<ScottL> ailo_at, hmmmm, that's very strange, innit?
<ScottL> maybe we need an idea from persia , TheMuso , paultag , or maybe #ubuntu-motu to sort this out
<ailo_at> ScottL: We need some sort of log, I think. But I don't see any in /var/log that makes any sense. 
<ailo_at> Tried to find the string "ubuntustudio-video" in any log that seemed relevant. Didn't find it anywhere
<ailo_at> Time for me to get horizontal..
<ScottL> night ailo_at 
<persia> Best is to file a bug with `ubuntu-bug debian-installer` and ask about it in #ubuntu-installer
<persia> That should collate all the logs into the bug, and notify the people who know about these things (including two of those highlighted above)
<abogani> ailo_at: ping
<ailo_at> abogani: pong
<abogani> ailo_at: Could you test also the -2-lowlatency release, please?
<ailo_at> abogani: sure.
<abogani> ailo_at: I want let you known that I really appreciated your work on low latency kernel testing.
<ailo_at> abogani: np. It is very interesting for me to know this as well.
 * abogani is wondering about what ASIO is...
<AutoStatic> All your Sound Is Ours!
<abogani> A Windows user requested me if Linux need ASIO drivers like Windows :-?
<holstein> JACK doenst do that
<holstein> AFAIK
<holstein> maybe its some funky device 
<AutoStatic> Linux doesn't need ASIO drivers
<AutoStatic> ALSA can handle very low latencies
<AutoStatic> Just like FFADO
<holstein> yeah, maybe its a device that alsa doesnt support
<holstein> more likely, the user hasnt tried it ;)
<AutoStatic> But ASIO drivers are the low latency drivers for Windows
<abogani> AutoStatic: Ahhhhh 
<abogani> I understand thanks!
<AutoStatic> :)
<AutoStatic> you're welcome
<scott-work> persia: just to be clear, if the installer fails (with red screen) during the software installation, i can go back to the menu and return to software installation and unselect the video package (presuming this is the problem)
<scott-work> persia: which then i would expect the installer to complete (as per ailo's experiences)
<scott-work> persia: after that installation i can run the `ubuntu-bug debian-installer` and file the bug?
<scott-work> persia: and it will still collect the proper information?
<scott-work> i just want to make sure i'm doing the right thing to get this fixed
<scott-work> abogani: i downloaded your kernel as requested
<scott-work> abogani: what should i do next? :)
<scott-work> wow, weird channel split
<scott-work> abogani: did you see my previous messages?
<ailo_at> abogani: I added a new set of results for all the kernels. I'm not happy about the tests - too short and simple. I tried hard to make 2.6.38-2 to produce xruns to make sure 2.6.38-3 xruns were only by chance. 
<scott-work> sorry if i'm spamming the channel but i've been having weird connectivity issues all morning
<scott-work> abogani: did you see my messages?
<scott-work> persia: did you by change see my questions?
<scott-work> hi ailo_at 
<ailo_at> hi scott-work. I've been offline for a little while..
<Ricardus> hi
<ailo_at> Just had a couple of xruns on 2.6.38-2. I'm not confident about my test results at all right now. We need better ways to test the kernels.
<ailo_at> paultag: ping
#ubuntustudio-devel 2011-02-16
<persia> ScottL, Um, huh.  You might need to run ubuntu-bug debian-installer from the installer environment, except that I don't think ubuntu-bug is available then.
<persia> May as well try the procedure you describe: worst case, you'll end up with instructions on how to get the right data.
 * ailo_at is learning Python very slowly and painfully
<abogani> ailo_at: Good choice!
<abogani> ailo_at: Test a realtime system it is very incredible hard thing but you are doing a really good job!
<abogani> ScottL: Follow these steps:
<abogani> 1) Install devscripts and dput
<abogani> 2) Set-up a GPG environment
<abogani> 3) Create a dedicated PPA on your launchpad page (In my case I called it "Broken").
<abogani> 4) cd ubuntu-natty-meta-lowlatency/meta-source
<abogani> 5) dch -i, add a comment, remove "ubuntu1", save and quit
<abogani> 6) debuild -S -sa
<abogani> 7) cd ..
<abogani> 8) dput ppa:youruser/yourppa linux-meta-lowlatency_2.6.38.X.XX_source.changes
<abogani> 9) Wait that PPA doing the rest
<abogani> scott-upstairs: ^
<abogani> ailo_at: The approach that I have found profitable is to "stress" the system as much as I can. I'm generaly use cyclictest (and not Ardour or other sound software simply because I'm not a musician) and put a lot of other works. For example: a linux kernel building (make -jx where X is a lot bigger of number of cores), execute hackbench, launch some "find /" and execute  a stupid dd if=/dev/zer of=/dev/null all these things launched in ba
<ailo_at> paultag: Check out the code when you have a chance git://gitorious.org/ubuntustudio-controls/ubuntustudio-controls.git
<ailo_at> abogani: Thanks. I will look into it.
<ailo_at> abogani: What I found was that if a process is not running with realtime privilege (puredata can be run either with or without), it won't easily cause xruns on jack, even if the processes(I use one for each core) are flooding the cpu to a miximum. I've been thinking about what type of processes could cause xruns. I guess pulseaudio could, if trying to init it while jack is running (cause pulseaudio is using rtkit, right?).
<ailo_at>  How could we find out what causes the xrun? What logs could I monitor to look for events that happen at the same time as the xrun occurs?
#ubuntustudio-devel 2011-02-17
<ScottL> ailo_at, are you still working on the theme as well?
<ScottL> ailo_at, would you mind looking at bug #720476
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 720476 in debian-installer (Ubuntu) "Ubuntu Studio Natty fails to install software when ubuntustudio-video is chosen" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/720476
<ScottL> and marking it as "confirmed" if you are experiencing the same problem
<ailo_at> ScottL: Was it hard to file the bug? I confirmed it.
<ailo_at> I mean, I marked that it affects me as well..
<ailo_at> Ok, I confirmed it.
<ScottL> ailo_at, filing it?  no, wasn't hard at all actually :)   i used the command that persia suggest "ubuntu-bug debian-installer"
<ScottL> it absolutely rocked
<ailo_at> ScottL: I didn't look through the attachments, but did you see the cause for it at all?
<ScottL> it started collecting information, opened a new tab in firefox, started the bug report, and attached the "relevant" information
<ScottL> ailo_at, i didn't look through it really, there were many attachments and i would be looking for a needle in a haystack because of my ignorance
<ScottL> but i'm hoping to poke someone tomorrow at work in #ubuntu-installer as persia suggested
<ailo_at> I suppose someone will find out, if the info is missing from the bug report.
<ScottL> i say "relevant" because it may not contain any information from the failed install at all!  especially after backing up and not selecting the video-meta and completing the install :/
<ScottL> but there's a bug report now and i'll poke around in #ubuntu-installer and maybe the can suggest a better way to find out
<ailo_at> ScottL: I've been working on the -controls the past two days. Still learning the basics. I copy what I can from the original controls
<ailo_at> But using the gui I made.
<ScottL> it looks like you and paultag are working together, no?
<ScottL> which is an awesome way to learn...he told me he was part of the beginner team that helps people learn
<paultag> yeah, I've been really sick, I'm just on now
<paultag> ScottL: ailo_at rocks, he's got a ton done
<ailo_at> I had a problem yesterday with hidden tabs (symbols that you don't see from a text editor), that comes from copy and pasting from the web. :P
<ailo_at> Spent a couple of hours scratching my head
<paultag> ailo_at: heheh
<ailo_at> paultag: Just pushed an update on the Glade file. The code is still just a barebone. The only thing that is partly worked on is the memlock control, and the help file opens the ubuntustudio docu wiki page.
<ScottL> paultag, heh, i was hella sick yesterday and just getting over it today, think it was a slight bit of food poisoning :/
<paultag> ailo_at: awesome
<paultag> ScottL: oh no :(
<ScottL> oh, ailo_at and paultag: not that we should stress on this now, but someone had a really good suggestion :
<ScottL> have a graphical way to "upgrade" to ubuntu studio from ubuntu desktop
<ScottL> that might fit into -controls as some point, just a single click "upgrade" button to do it all
<ScottL> just thinking out loud, maybe this isn't the place
<ailo_at> ScottL: I have a button called "Set UbuntuStudio Default Settings" that is supposed to do that.
<ScottL> and certainly not for this release but i'll add it to the "release planning"...
<ScottL> oRLy?
<ScottL> well, that unequivocally rocks ailo_at :)
<ailo_at> ScottL: Allthough, it doesn't install audio packages at all, but I suppose we could expand that a little. Add metapackage selection to the controls.
<ScottL> now that i have an install of ubuntu studio on my second computer that seems stable i can start testing kernels as well
<ScottL> ailo_at, don't stress on it yet, that can be a feature to be added later for sure
<paultag> :)
<ailo_at> Adding meta packages should be easy enough
<ailo_at> Another thing I've thought about is having an indicator app for the controls. The app we are working on now could be a system preferences part of an indicator menu.
<ScottL> i've been making good use of my latest Linux Format magazine today while incapacitated and have been reading jono's effusing on unity and i realized...
<ScottL> when i installed studio today it went straight to gnome instead of unity!
<ScottL> so the patch i did actually worked!  yay :)
<ScottL> thanks TheMuso for uploading it :)
<ScottL> and i'll have to send didirock a big thank you tomorrow as well for patiently working with me to wrangle up the patch
<ailo_at> I have to start installing from network. I'm running out of DVD's :P
<ScottL> ailo_at, i've been using rewritable dvd's, they're good for 20 or so rewrites before they start acting up
<ailo_at> I usually install from usb on the computers that support it. Would be nice to get rid of the CD DVD format all together.
<ScottL> i wonder however, etiquette for bugs, can i mark the gnome-classic bug as "fixed" now, or should i wait until the official natty release?
<ScottL> and i need to report this bug fixed on the team report also :)
<ScottL> holstein has been pushing for a graphical installer, which i believe will then allow you to create usb images to install
<ScottL> maybe in a non-lts version we can implement the graphical installer and just install ALL the packages for that release
<ScottL> and work on a way to select (if we feel we still need to do select packages*) packages for the next release
<ScottL> this would give us a year to work on implementing package selection in a graphical installation
<ScottL> * i suppose it is possible to decide not to select packages if we have a streamlined package selection anyway
<ScottL> i noticed the 'audio production' menu fits on the screen currently in natty, which is a good thing in my opinion :)
<ailo_at> Not for me, since I have a 1024x768 resolution.
<ailo_at> ScottL: Just thinking about the graphical installer. Isn't it better to have a meta package for that in Software Center?
<ailo_at> The controls can still have package selection, at least meta-package selection.
<ailo_at> And the way you would install from the -controls would be: choose packages, hit apply.
<ailo_at> If we made the controls into a indicator menu app, we could split up the functions. We could have a dedicated Multimedia package management app and a preferences app.
<ailo_at> As menu items in the controls
<ailo_at> falktx idea of a control app seemed very all in one. If the controls could dock other software into it, like jack, it could be similar to what falktx is working on.
<ailo_at> I mean qjackctl, not jack itself
<ailo_at> Could be nice to have a sound check function too.
<abogani> ailo_at: Could you rerun tests disabling AUTOGROUP (that is do as root "echo 0 > /proc/sys/kernel/sched_autogroup_enabled"), please?
<abogani> ailo_at: For find culprit you could use perf (with its function_graph tracer).
<ailo_at> abogani: So, I installed linux-tools for 2.6.38-3 for now. Running perf gave this error "perf_2.6.38-3: error while loading shared libraries: libbfd-2.21-system.so: cannot open shared object file: No such file or directory". I have /usr/lib/libbfd-2.21.0-system.20110216.so, created today, so I made a symbolic link at /usr/lib/libbfd-2.21-system.co. It seems to work. You think this is ok to do?
<abogani> ailo_at: It could be safe.
<abogani> should*
<abogani> ailo_at: Perhaps sched_switch is better trace...
<abogani> But I'm really know...
<abogani> *don't*
<ailo_at> abogani: So much to look through. Could you give me an example command?
<abogani> I know how find latencies culprit on realtime kernel but not on "normal" kernel :-(
<abogani> As root
<abogani> cd /sys/kernel/debug/tracing
<abogani> echo 0 > tracing_enabled
<abogani> cat availabe_tracers
<abogani> echo tracer_choosen > current_tracer
<abogani> echo 1 > tracing_enabled
<abogani> do what do you want
<abogani> echo 0 > tracing_enabled
<abogani> cat trace
<abogani> ailo_at: Do you have already made test with turning AUTOGROUP off?
<ailo_at> I turned it off, but no change as far as I can see. No reboot needed, right?
<abogani> No.
<abogani> No reboot needed.
 * abogani thinks that for do this works we should build a custom kernel...
<ScottL> here is something a little surprising: http://ubuntu-tweak.com/app/ulatency/
<ScottL> claims to lower latency by using cgroups
<ScottL> abogani, i have done as you enumerated
<ScottL> https://launchpad.net/~slavender/+archive/broken
<abogani> ScottL: really good guy.
<ScottL> ailo_at, just to make sure i understand your previous comments, are you suggesting that we create a singe "install ubuntu studio"meta package so that someone could upgrade by installing a single package via software center or synaptic or CLI ?
<abogani> Studio still use alternate cd/dvd?
<ScottL> abogani, yes
<abogani> mhhhh
<ScottL> ailo_at, i also like falktx idea of a single control app, i even suggested to him that he incorprate patchage or similar for connections in it as well
<ScottL> ailo_at, this would really give a single point of usage to control the audio server
<ScottL> abogani, but there are serious talks about moving to the graphical installer
<ScottL> it's just a matter of understanding how and having the commitment from people to implement/maintain it
<ScottL> and i suppose we need to address a few items as well, like if we continue to give people installation choice via tasksel and how to implement it
<ailo_at> ScottL: I am for the single install package in Software Center. I'm not sure about having your own software doing the patchage and stuff, since there already are so many out there. I don't like putting everything in one program. Would be better to have it able to dock programs, like if they were plugins.
<ailo_at> ScottL: An indicator menu like the one for sound and mail, maybe?
 * abogani don't think that ulatencyd could help us. It seems a "replace" for AUTOGROUP (features added recently into the kernel also called "200 line magic patch" or similar)
<abogani> thinks*
 * ScottL is heading to work
<abogani> Ok the next step for update lowlatency kernel is:
<abogani> Repeat the same steps for ubuntu-natty-lowlatency (done for -meta).
<abogani> *Before* launch debuild:
<abogani> mkdir ~/a_temporary_directory_wherever_you_want -p
<abogani> cp -a debian* ~/a_temporary_directory_wherever_you_want
<abogani> cd ~/a_temporary_directory_wherever_you_want
<abogani> and so debuild -S -sa 
<abogani> and all the rest (like -meta)
<abogani> ScottL: ^
<abogani> It is simple, isn't it?
<abogani> ;-)
<persia> For those interested in graphical installers for the point of graphical installers, rather than for some other reason, plenty of work has been done at http://wiki.debian.org/DebianInstaller/GUI to provide a GUI for the current installer, which may be interesting, to avoid having to reengineer everything for a completely different installer.
<abogani> We can't use the same Ubuntu installer?
<persia> abogani, So, there are two different sorts of installer available for the architectures we support.  One is used on the live images (ubiquity), and the other is used on the alternate images (debian-installer).
<persia> Most of the actual installation code is shared (it comes from other packages and the code is delivered within the context of the selected installer).
<persia> Right now, Ubuntu Studio only has alternate images, so all the testing has been done with debian-installer.
<persia> Adding a GUI to that is 90% testing: it might just work.  It might need a couple tweaks.
<persia> Switching to ubiquity means changing the install experience, writing wrapper handlers for any installer components that aren't currently supported (e.g. for task handling), and then testing/tweaking.
 * abogani admits that alternate install not suit well with Studio's audience ...
<holstein> persia: i'll look at that link
<holstein> i would just want to make sure that USB stick installs are simplified
<holstein> which ever way we decide to go
<holstein> *to try and cover as many issues as possible
<holstein> i think adding the GUI to what we have would be cool
<persia> I don't see any reason why USB installs shouldn't be completely independent of the technology used during the install.
<holstein> well, currently there is an error
<persia> But yeah, just making what we have use GTK rather than curses seems the line of least resistance to me (assuming the code works: I don't believe it's ever been tested in Ubuntu)
<holstein> where the installer cant locate the media
<holstein> thats using unetbootin
<holstein> i havent tried the ubuntu USB stick maker in a while
<holstein> but back at 10.04
<holstein> it didnt do anything
<holstein> also, having a LIVE installer would be nice
<holstein> for testing purposes
<holstein> so someone can fire up JACK and a synth on their hardware
<holstein> for example
<persia> I don't think we can get support for unetbootin at any point.
<persia> I've heard there's work to port USB Creator to other platforms (Windows and OS X).  I'm unsure of current status.
<holstein> ubiquity works with unet
<holstein> and usb creator
<holstein> thats why i was pushing for it
<persia> I'm still opposed to LIVE, especially because if someone fires up JACK and a synth on their hardware in a live environment, they probably won't be able to play anything with anywhere close to acceptable latency.
<holstein> seemed to take out the most birds with one stone ;)
<holstein> yeah?
<holstein> well, i was pushing for it for several reasons
<holstein> it makes the installer look and feel like normal ubuntu
<persia> Try it.  Boot a live Desktop CD, install qjackctl and a synth, and see what performance you get.
<holstein> makes USB installs easier
<persia> All prior testing found it completely unacceptable.
<holstein> and
<holstein> we are the only audio distro i can find that doesnt have a live installer
<holstein> and my testing has been actually quite acceptable
<holstein> the old dynebolic acutally gave a bit better performance live for me
<persia> You've tried the test I described above?
<holstein> that ubuntustudio 8.04
<holstein> not a fair comparison
<holstein> BUT
<holstein> AVlinux live is quite similar to ubuntustudio installed
<holstein> and KXstudio
<holstein> not bad
<holstein> do-able
<holstein> persia: i'll try that test again in natty
<holstein> just to make sure
<persia> OK.  And no fair if you have really-new-extra-super-powered hardware :)
<holstein> nope
<persia> But if you think it's acceptable, maybe things have changed in the past few years.
<holstein> dynebolic was running on a p3
<holstein> with 256 ram
<holstein> that was able to have jack stable at 20ms
<holstein> persia: well, would i make an album on a live CD of ubuntustudio?
<holstein> no
<holstein> but, i think it would be handy
<holstein> i think a lot of bad vibes occur for new users
<holstein> for example
<holstein> folks dont know that ubuntustudio = ubuntu
<persia> I'm not opposed if it's acceptable.  I'm mostly opposed if it can give a poor impression of Ubuntu Studio.
<holstein> so, they wipe their functional buntu install
<holstein> OR dual boot
<persia> We need to fix that.
<holstein> persia: we should talk about this more
<persia> We're Ubuntu Studio, but our difference to Ubuntu Desktop isn't enough to make us not Ubuntu.
<holstein> because that is completely my motivation as well
<holstein> all i can do is look at my experiences
<holstein> and notice what i see in the support channel
<holstein> for me, i installed 8.04
<holstein> ubuntustudio
<holstein> several times
<holstein> didnt even know about the IRC back then
<holstein> all i knew was my firepod didnt work
<holstein> BUT, it worked with the 64studio live CD
<holstein> and i didnt know why
<holstein> it was simple permissions pretty much
<holstein> BUT for me to test ubuntustudio
<holstein> i had to install each time
<holstein> and that at the time gave me a poor impression of ubuntustudio
<persia> Aha.  Yes, that's a useful case for  a LiveCD.
<persia> As long as stuff actually *works*.
<holstein> and im arguing that this could be the case for others as well
<holstein> however, i totally see your point of view as well
<holstein> i feel like maybe we can come to some comfortable middle ground
<persia> I'm mostly echoing the historical point of view.  In practice, I don't care that much.
<holstein> and will address all of my concerns
<holstein> and keep the performance in mind
<persia> My main goal is to make sure we don't repeat mistakes because we've forgotten our history.
<holstein> persia: i gotta split for a while
<holstein> i'll catch up later though :)
<persia> Sure :)
<holstein> alright
<holstein> couple more minutes
<holstein> i sked cjwatson about the switch to ubiquity
<holstein> hypothetically of course
<holstein> i was told it would not be trival
<holstein> BUT do-able
<holstein> and the biggest loss for us is the metapackage selection
<holstein> i would like to bring this up to though
<holstein> i remember the first probably 6 or so times i saw it
<holstein> i would hit the wrong key
<holstein> and skip past it
<holstein> accidentally
<holstein> and not get any of them
<holstein> and i should have RTFM'd probably
<holstein> but i had not seen that kind of installer before
<holstein> and didnt understand it fully
<holstein> then, somewhere around 9.10
<holstein> the metepackages wouldnt install
<holstein> it took a while for me to figure out which one *not* to install
<holstein> so that then install wouldnt fail
<holstein> in this scenario, the end-user needed to figure out a work around for a bug
<holstein> then, download a significant amount of data twice
<holstein> just to finally see the ubuntustudio desktop
<holstein> *and not know how to join a wifi network ;)
<holstein> anyways... maybe this can be a time when we can really think about wht we want going forward
<holstein> i mean, functionally, the alternate installer is fine
<holstein> we all know that
<holstein> but, i think we can all agree that something needs to be changed in the near-ish future
<holstein> even if its just better USB stick installation documentation
<holstein> scrap the live-cd idea
<holstein> and a GUI installer kinda like the one we've got
<holstein> i gotta run again, but
<holstein> persia: are there any other options for installers that you are thinking about?
<holstein> we got the current alternate
<holstein> ubiquity
<holstein> the debian GUI
<persia> That's about it.
<holstein> thats what i was thinking
<persia> And the difference between the current one and the debian-GUI is presentation-only: no functional changes.
<persia> Doing it in ubiquity is some functional work.
<holstein> yeah, thats nice
<holstein> just adding the GUI is easy
<holstein> assuming the meta packages work*
<holstein> well, we got options
<holstein> maybe scott-work ScottL ailo_at abogani 
<holstein> whoever
<holstein> if you get a minute to read the scroll back
<holstein> and comment or just think it over...
<persia> Technically, that's task selection, not metapackage selection, although the names are the same, and the tasks all include the metapackages :)
<holstein> good point
<holstein> that helps me understand how one can be broken
<holstein> and not the other
<holstein> biab...
<scott-work> sorry it took a bit, but i read the backscroll...exciting stuff :)
<scott-work> work is kinda crazy today since i was out yesterday :/
<scott-work> just to pull some other threads into this conversation...
<scott-work> i was talking with ailo_at yesterday and i made myself question the task selection part
<scott-work> if we have reduced the number of packages that are installed, perhaps we don't even need to worry about asking for user input during installation and just install all that we feel is necessary
<scott-work> i imagine that users would find that a live cd /graphical installation is more important that being able to pick and choose between five task selections
 * scott-work ducks and runs for cover now
<persia> ScottL, With the GUI I referenced, we get task selection without extra work.  With ubiquity, we lose task selection, or we have to implement something complex (and that for natty+1, because feature freeze is RSN).
<persia> Main thing to ask about task selection is if there are serious users who don't want the audio stuff.
<persia> At one point there were some.  I don't know about now.
<scott-work> persia: i think this might get to the core of *what* is ubuntu studio...both from what users expect and the reasons we make it
<scott-work> i say that not to be flippant, i'm serious
<persia> I don't take it flippantly, and I agree.
<scott-work> i believe we don't do anything special for video or graphics that can't be done with synaptic, software center, or apt-get install
<persia> But while I'm happy to discuss history and theory, I leave vision and decision to you.
<persia> I believe we don't do anything special for audio that can't be done with a package manager.
 * scott-work runs around screaming "We're doomed!  We're doomed!"
<scott-work> kidding
<persia> I further believe that if we *do* anything special, we're doing it wrong.
<persia> The point of a flavour is to express an opinion about appropriate defaults and package selection.
<scott-work> we adjust a few settings, like user in audio group and maybe including the -lowlatency kernel once it's in the repos
<persia> Anyone can replicate the end-state with any package manager, *but* by having a flavour, people are saved the effort of doing so, and it Just Works.
<scott-work> but this furthers my point: we would someone download a larger image, have to use a dvd, loose the live aspect of it, just to have gimp installed?
<scott-work> when you can download a smaller, live cd, install it quicker with a fancy gui and less clicks and then add gimp?
<scott-work> s/we/why
<scott-work> i think our brand is audio and we tune the distro to it, we are even discussing a live dvd so that people can make sure their hardware works
<ailo_at> I think puredyne has a nice combination. A live CD and a live DVD. You get both a slimmer version and a full version. DVD's can be tough to burn. USB will not work for everyone.
<ailo_at> So, they cover all those problems
<ailo_at> Main reason why I stopped installing US from DVD was I often got some corruption when burning, so it failed to install at some point
<ailo_at> I'm checking out puredyne again to try performance.
<ailo_at> It's 9.11, based on Karmic.
<persia> If puredyne is based on Ubuntu, someone ought scavenge it for nifty patches :)
<persia> ScottL, If the brand is audio, then yes, all the non-audio stuff doesn't matter at all.
<persia> The interesting question is whether the brand is audio.
<scott-work> persia: what was the demand previously for non-audio applications?
<persia> There were a number of folk interested in video and video applications.
<persia> And there was some work done to improve support for tablets, improve gimp/inkscape/etc. as tools, and otherwise ensure the quality of the experience for graphics production.
<persia> I have no idea about user counts.
<persia> Asking this a different way: who cares for firewire permissions, blender interfaces, tablet support, testing of inkscape/gimp/etc. if not Ubuntu Studio?
<persia> I'm not saying we do this well today, but I wonder if it is determined to be out of scope if we can find someone else who will do this well.
<scott-work> hmmm, good points
<ailo_at> For myself I have very little knowledge about Video and Graphic applications, and if there are any problems setting up a system to work with those. 
<ailo_at> Fonts, formats?
<persia> So, setting up the system isn't especially hard.  Nothing special.
<persia> There's really two areas that get interesting:
<persia> 1) software: do the selected tools install/run smoothly.  Is someone watching their bugs, and making sure they get upstream, etc.
<persia> 2) hardware: do we have working support for tablets, for jog:shuttle devices, for firewire cameras, etc.  Does RAW import and SANE do what we expect?
<persia> firewire cameras were a dispute point for a long time.  With juju it should matter less, because it's now possible to have a solution, but I don't know if anyone is testing/tweaking this.
 * persia has no firewire cameras, nor tablets
<scott-work> i wonder how many of these improvements (like udev rules for firewire) have made their way into ubuntu desktop as well now, maybe by simply working with upstream
<scott-work> ?
<persia> Some.
<ailo_at> Since a lot of multimedia/audio distros are based on Ubuntu and each one of them is tackling the problems with what apps to include (allthough they all are somewhat similar) I don't see why Ubuntu Studio must work for everyone. That is why I like the idea of a slim Live CD with only the essential stuff on it (some apps take very little space too).
<persia> I know of several specific cases where the necessary stuff has just happened.
<persia> But where I'm less sure is if there is anyone regularly testing: in the past we broke wacom support at least once during each release cycle.
<persia> ailo_at, I don't think it's interesting to consider derivatives as real alternatives for users.  I instead consider them cases where we've failed to find a useful way to cooperate with someone.
<persia> And I doubt I'm alone in wishing that if other folk are tackling the same question of which packages to include by default, they were doing so with us.  It's not easy to find the right answer, and users aren't well served by 10 different choices, each requiring a reinstall, all based off almost identical code.
<persia> If someone has good patches, we should be integrating those.  If it's just look&feel, surely we can come to agreement.
<ailo_at> persia: We should identify the reasons to why people would want to choose another distro over US. I'm sure many reasons are pretty trivial. PA, though not crashing so much anymore is still not working with some chips without tweaking. 
<ailo_at> There are many things I never do on Linux, so I never see if there are issues. I never us VST plugins for instance (don't know what you need to get those working).
<persia> PA is falsely accused in most cases.
<ailo_at> I think the most important part for the user is that everything works without tweaking.
<persia> But I think that we'd do better to reach out to derivatives, and find out why they are changing things, and whether we could just make a change to solve that problem so they don't need another distro, rather than trying to figure out why users might select something else.
<ailo_at> Good point
<persia> As a bonus, integrating with the derivatives helps to grow our team.
<persia> And that makes it easier to make more changes, and make it better for everyone.
<ailo_at> Yes, that would make sense. I think many of the Ubuntu based distros are at least using US kernels if they exist, like Puredyne uses the Karmic rt-kernel. Would make sense to cooperate on some levels.
<persia> I strongly suspect that any Ubuntu derivative is using mostly Ubuntu packages.  Some of them have patches, some may have new upstreams, etc.
<persia> Most of that work is stuff that we would have done if we had the time/effort/skill
<persia> Some of the rest is horrid hacks for which there are better solutions, although more difficult
<persia> e.g. fluxbuntu does a lot with dpkg-divert, rather than looking at general solutions, in part because they don't have the time/effort/skill to do it right.
<persia> (nothing against fluxbuntu: nice guys, doing interesting things, but limited time makes for less-than-ideal choices sometimes)
<persia> And the last bit tends to be branding, themes, etc.
<persia> If folk want to do the branding/themes/etc., I think that's fine, and more power to them.
<persia> I'd like to have a list of the horrid hacks, so we could try to address them over time (might be a while).
<persia> For everything else, I think it ought be done in Ubuntu.
<ailo_at> If I've understood correctly realtime will be achived in a secure way in the future (rtkit, right?), and that that will need no further "hacking" in that area (but I suppose all the apps using realtime will need to be updated). Firewire is supposed to work now, thought it won't work with jackd without audio group. What else is there that is a hack now? 
<persia> I don't have a complete list of hacks.
<persia> What about firewire doesn't work without the "audio" group?
<persia> Is that the memlock stuff, or is it broken udev rules?
<ailo_at> persia: Firewire will work with jack, but not in realtime, at least that is what I was told from testing. Holstein tried it.
<ailo_at> Without audio group
<persia> Ah, that's two issues.
<persia> 1) jack needs porting to rtkit
<persia> 2) jack wants memlock support, and there's no memkit, nor does rtkit support memlock.
<persia> Nothing to do with firewire.
<ailo_at> Just tried Puredyne i386 version on a AMD64 machine. I get roughly the same performance as with the -lowlatency kernel.
<ailo_at> Roughly the same performance as with Natty and the -lowlatency that is
<ailo_at> This was using a live USB made with Unetbootin.
<persia> OK.  Let's turn that into something actionable.
<ailo_at> So, I don't think there aught to be any performance problems, other than that apps may take longer to load.
<persia> So, which kernel was that?  If not 2.6.38, what happens with a 2.6.38 kernel?
<persia> What is the kernel configuration?  Are there things we should consider adjusting?
<persia> How is the live environment constructed?  How does that compare with how Ubuntu does live environments?  Do we believe we can generate a similar experience?
<ailo_at> persia: Puredyne, with Karmic -rt kernel. Same as UbuntuStudio Karmic (sorry if I am confusing you)
<persia> I'm not confused: I'm only asserting that the results you collected are not actionable in terms of Ubuntu Studio Natty.
<persia> So, while interesting, this means they don't translate into a way we can improve things, nor do they necessarily indicate that we should or would expect similar results.
<ailo_at> I've used the Puredyne before, and I get the same performance when installing on Hard Disk as well. This was around 2.5ms latency.
<ailo_at> I have no idea about how they make the iso. Never done that myself. They use their own script to create a live USB on which you can install programs.
<persia> Right.  Needs comparison of that script to the ones Ubuntu uses for the live environment.
<persia> There may be differences in how they do things that impact performance.
<ailo_at> Here's the script that creates the live device (usb) http://paste.ubuntu.com/568364/
<ailo_at> I tried running the script on Maverick, and it didn't work. Either on Karmic or Lucid (could be they updated it since).
<ailo_at> They're working on a gui app for it too
<ailo_at> If you have bzr installed you can just do "bzr branch lp:bouilloncube" to get the whole thing
<persia> The process by which they generate the bootable image isn't the interesting part.  The interesting part is the set of scripts that are used on boot to create the live experience.
<ailo_at> persia: Get the ISO maker scripts "bzr branch lp:broth"
<persia> I'm in the middle of a few things just now.  Maybe you could look, and compare?
<ailo_at> Wheres the Ubuntu script?
<persia> livecd-rootfs constructs the liveFS, and casper has the master control scripts that perform the limited installation-like steps to turn that into a live environment (like creating the user "ubuntu", etc.)
<ailo_at> Could this be a place to start? https://help.ubuntu.com/community/LiveCDCustomizationFromScratch
<scott-work> maybe we should solicit some ideas from users to see what they desire
<scott-work> the more i think about this maybe we should ask
<scott-work> we have lots of ideas:  live media, updates for -controls, maybe an upgrade pacakge
<scott-work> would be nice to know that we are aligned with user's wants
<ailo_at> scott-work: Maybe we could ask on lau list. Ask them what they think is most important with a multimedia distro? And what about Graphics and Video, where is the forum for those people?
<scott-work> LAU would be a good place to ask for a generalized audience, we can also hit the ubuntustudio-user and ubuntustudio-devel lists as well
<scott-work> post in ubuntu forums
<scott-work> i've already started a loose questioning in other channels i frequent
<scott-work> we might also be able to turn this into a recruiting tool
<scott-work> if someone is feeling very strongly about a particular item, we can invite them to help do it :)
<scott-work> especially if what they feel strongly about is in the minority and we can't devote enough people to it
<ailo_at> Sounds like good ideas to me
<scott-work> my first reaction is to list some of the ideas we have, then to ask people what the  most pressing idea is to them, even if it isn't on that list
<ailo_at> I think asking other distro people, like persia suggested is a good thing too.
<scott-work> or should be just ask them cold..."what would you like to see improved in ubuntu studio?"
<scott-work> after february and rpm challenge i wanted to distro hop a few to see what they are doing
<scott-work> but we could certainly email them and see if we can incorprate what they do
<persia> ailo_at, I think they are different exercises.  Asking users is just general feedback.  Talking to derivatives should be focused clearly on recruiting: we need to understand why they aren't part of Ubuntu Studio, and fix that.
<scott-work> mcinnis from dream studio has already contacted me about a few things
<scott-work> persia: i would like for us to contact other distros and ask them for collaboration, that is a great idea to foster innovation, improvement, and development :)
<scott-work> this is analogous as "upstream" asking for patches
<scott-work> i'd like to also play with linux mint and crunch bang as "bases" to build a recording setup during march, to just experiement while i am also playing with avlinux, kxstudio, dream studio, et al
<persia> I'm not sure you'll encounter much difference for derivatives that don't focus on audio production.
<persia> It's probably just our packages.
<ailo_at> As I've said before, I would like all these people to collaborate at least on the "under the hood" stuff.
<ailo_at> The multimedia based distro people that is
<falktx> ailo_at: i'm already starting to contribute
<scott-work> ailo_at: i think that most of the derivatives are not really into the "under the hood" stuff except for falk
<scott-work> lol, there he is
<falktx> ailo_at: scott-work: http://img340.imageshack.us/img340/6603/scr004.jpg
<falktx> hehe
<falktx> ^ that is my new tool - a multi-plugin host
 * falktx stole the knobs from calf... :)
<falktx> the LV2 is killing me
<ailo_at> Looks nice. Will vst plugs work too?
<falktx> ailo_at: yes, windows plugins too
<falktx> native and windows
<falktx> ailo_at: I also want to support LMMS plugins
<falktx> ailo_at: the gui is written in python, and uses (loads) a backend c++ code, making it possible to use many type of plugins (native, windows, native 32bit on 64bit, etc)
<ailo_at> Nice to have everything in one place.
<scott-work> if we are going to talk to derivatives of ubuntu studio and solicit collaboration, which distros are these?
<scott-work> someone mentioned pure-dyne or dyne-bolic?
<scott-work> tango studio is one i belive
<scott-work> av linux is another i believe
<scott-work> and dream studio
<ailo_at> scott-work: With KXStudio, those are the only ones I know of. Puredyne has their own irc channel and mail list. Both are low traffic, but the guys in charge I think are on them both.
<ailo_at> I know PureDyne do some kernel hacking, but they chose to use the Karmic -rt kernel for their last release.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2011-02-18
<ailo_at> paultag: Feeling any better? I'm having a lot of problems coding. I get there, but ever so slowly.
<paultag> ailo_at: yeah, a bit. What's up? I'd be way more then happy to help
<paultag> ailo_at: have a path to checkout? I think I lost the URL
<ailo_at> paultag: git://gitorious.org/ubuntustudio-controls/ubuntustudio-controls.git
<ailo_at> paultag: The original controls is in a folder. 0.47-resource
<paultag> cheers, let me check it out in a moment ailo_at, just getting sushi now. It's cloning to my desktop, I won't forget it
<ailo_at> paultag: Great. Let me know what you need or if you have any questions. I've tried to keep it somewhat orderly.
<paultag> righto!
<ailo_at> paultag: I'm probably not able to do anything for a couple of days on the code. I need to learn some things first. I'm going to work my way through the basics and get more acquainted with pyGTK, before I add anything more.
<ailo_at> So, feel free to do what you want with it
<paultag> ailo_at: sweet! You've hacked a ton in :)
<paultag> ailo_at: btw, you're using natty, arn't you?
<paultag> I've had to tweek that glade back to 2.22 manually ;)
<ailo_at> paultag: Oh, never thought about that. 
<paultag> ailo_at: it's for natty
<paultag> ailo_at: it's totally cool :)
<paultag> ailo_at: until we want to backport, in which case we can roll a delta
<paultag> ailo_at: this looks really awesome. I'm going to go through and cut some fat (old code) out, and push
<scott-upstairs> sounds like you two are making progress :)
<paultag> scott-upstairs: yup :)
<paultag> scott-upstairs: what was all that to do with docmo? 
<ailo_at> I would have done more, but my skills are not that great yet. It was good to get that far. Need to learn Python a lot better.
<paultag> ailo_at: it's all easy from here on out
<ScottL> paultag, i'm trying to entice some people to help with art
<ScottL> i noticed some people are quiting the art team and thought, "hmmm, strike when the iron's hot!"
<ScottL> but seriously, they were complaining about someone on the team
<paultag> ah
<ScottL> and i thought, maybe we could lure them over here by asking if anyone wants to help develop a small, collaborative group to work on art
<ScottL> but i wanted doctormo's opinion if it would be taken wrong or predatory ;)
<ScottL> paultag, did you know that doctormo was working on a package for bamboo tablets?
<paultag> yes
<paultag> he has photos of mine :)
<paultag> for icons and such
<ScottL> did you know that he's having a wee bit of trouble with it?
<paultag> yes, I did
<ailo_at> I did some work on pimping the Ambience theme http://imagebin.org/138532
<ScottL> that's looking good ailo_at  :)
<ScottL> if we had some customized icons to supplement it then it would look even better :)
<ailo_at> The folders are recolored Humanity. Other than that, I've just changed the colors on the theme
<ailo_at> And the panel icons are the wrong sort: light
<ScottL> i played around with the dark ambience theme that i linked earlier and i still had the xchat icon like you...
<ScottL> which looked so...wrong
<ScottL> at least contrasted with the rest of the theme, being all dark and grey :)
<ScottL> bollocks, i'm tired but the boy is still awake :(
<ailo_at> That icon doesn't have a custom version, but it's not hard to do Mono style versions I think
<ailo_at> Since they are mostly grey/white
<ailo_at> Just copy that one, and recolor it. Recolor the text too.
<ailo_at> My plan was to use the Mono/Humanity theme as a base. Just change the color and style of the folders, and the arrows. Anything "Humanity" and turn it UbunstuStudio.
<ailo_at> I'm not being too serious about it. It's just fun to do it.
<scott-work> i've signed up for the ubuntu-artwork mailing list and there really seems to be a lot of schizm
<scott-work> i've read about these types of occurances before but they seemed almost like urban legends
<scott-work> kinda weird to be seeing it first hand though
<scott-work> oh, i should point out that i don't believe the schizm is because i signed up for the ubuntu-artwork mailing list :P
<ailo_at> scott-work: Seems like they're not very happy over there.
<scott-work> ailo_at: i was really hoping to entice some of them to help us and they could recreate their group with ubuntu studio, but alas, it doesn't look like anyone is interested :(
<ailo_at> scott-work: Only been a few hours since you posted ;). 
<scott-work> well, yeah, that's true...but i felt like the opportunity would be there while they were still emotional and upset :P
<scott-work> the longer they wait the longer probably wouldn't want to make the change
<scott-work> ailo_at: i'm going to feature you in my next blog post next week
<scott-work> i talked a bit about alessio and holstein in this week's post
<ailo_at> It would be nice if someone with experience would want to chip in with the artwork. Feature me? What an honor.
<scott-work> autostatic turned me on to this post:  http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1683067
<scott-work> it's most disappointing that someone extrapolates their singular experience into a complete failure for linux audio :(
<ailo_at> I can understand the frustration from new users. I've had my share of problems setting up a system suitable for lowlatency audio. Two harddisks failed at once (mystery), with some distros I could not shut down the computer, there was some problem with my pci usb2 cards (irq, I think), network problems....BUT, when I get it working, it works. And there's nothing that can substitute the feeling of running an open source OS.
<ailo_at> (not that other OS's don't have problems)..
#ubuntustudio-devel 2011-02-19
<macinnisrr> Hi!
<macinnisrr> I had asked about the possibility of including the option to include a multimedia PPA by KXStudio a while back, and was told that it had been discussed, but decided against due to security concerns.  While I understand that, what is the possibility of the UbuntuStudio team hosting their own ppa, whose trusted members can add new and updated packages to distributions as old as they can support (eg: when Ardour 3.0 com
<ScottL> hi macinnisrr 
<macinnisrr> Hey!
<ScottL> several aspects have been discussed about ppa
<ScottL> one of the first and foremost was that the effort should really go into getting packages into the repos for everyone rather than just ppa
<ScottL> oh, he's gone
<ScottL_> did anyone hear about network-manager causing conflicts with the -rt kernel?
<ScottL_> i'm not sure if this is speculation or documented
<holstein> ScottL_: what conflicts?
<holstein> i have an install with both around here
<holstein> i could look into it
<ScottL_> holstein, i suspected it may have been misinformation
<ScottL_> it was from a user on the forums
<ScottL_> i wouldn't look into it though
<holstein> if you want to link me up
<holstein> ill respond
<ScottL_> hold on
<holstein> and offer to confirm
<ScottL_> ah, he's already backed away from it a bit: http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?p=10473488#post10473488
<ScottL_> i'm beginning to suspect some stratification in users on the forums and users on lists and irc
<ScottL_> the ones in the forums don't seem to be as abreast of the current status and problems
<ScottL_> in some ways they might even be creating their own misinformation and are unable to find where to get a definitive answer :(
<ScottL_> i think i'm going to post there, in a new thread, and mention three things:
<holstein> yeah, thats mis-information
<holstein> its not really a conflict
<holstein> and its not really isolated to a kernel
<ScottL_> 1. the list and irc a GREAT places to get definitive and current information
<holstein> i heard someone explain it well
<holstein> and i should have took notes
<ScottL_> 2. ask if people in the forums generally ONLY stay in the forums
<ScottL_> 3. and maybe proffer a general Q&A to help communication and information flow
<ScottL_> lol, holstein, there are many times i wish i had notes :)
<holstein> hell, id like to say 'is ubuntustudio dying?, only if you let it'
<ScottL_> oh, oh...that's great!  yeah, you should say that :)
<ScottL_> i have been trying to be very positive in my forums posts and always present a way for the users to get involved
<holstein> yeah, i forget about them
<holstein> i'll get active for a minute
<holstein> and just forget to go look
<ScottL_> also autostatic mentioned that it would be great to have a dev presence in the forums, eric used to do that quite a bit but he's not around so much anymore :(
<ScottL_> holstein, yeah, same here
<holstein> sometimes there are folk that ask
<holstein> how to help
<holstein> next time i'll suggest that
<holstein> not a dev presence
<ScottL_> there's a big sticky on the beginning of the studio forums
<ScottL_> about helping
<holstein> but a regular member
<holstein> that can come to the IRC
<holstein> and unify some responses
<ScottL_> but i suppose there are also crap loads of "how do i configure jack?" posts and people keep posting new ones :/
<holstein> it would be nice to have a clean and clear wiki too
<holstein> for JACK
<ScottL_> so, it's not like some of those persons are terribly resourceful
<holstein> where, when we help one person
<holstein> they can post the process
<holstein> based on hardware
<holstein> for others to learn from
<ScottL_> yeah, like a resource database or knowledge base
<holstein> its a lot of work though
<holstein> we were kinda doing that with OSMP wiki
<holstein> and got slack about it
<ScottL_> i've been trying to also drum up support for developing an artwork team around ubuntu studio...no luck so far though
<holstein> also, the ALSA and ffado sites can be resourceful for that purpse
<holstein> purpose*
<holstein> if you know what you're looking for
<ScottL_> i think i'm going to bug TheMuso to make one more set of changes (one that i forgot and one that should be undone) and then we can work on the menu :)
<holstein> cool
<ScottL_> s/changes/changes to the seeds
<ScottL_> i added dvd-styler, which is awesome for making dvd's, but it brings in a bunch of other stuff, like dvdisaster and xine
<ScottL_> and honestly, do we have a user base that really makes loads of dvd's?  probably not
<holstein> maybe
<holstein> i have installed some tools for that purpose
<holstein> thats for sure
<holstein> BUT
<ScottL_> but i wouldn't say it was a lot of our users though
<holstein> these days you can be a video guy
<holstein> and not ever touch a DVD
<holstein> tough call
<ScottL_> but again, dvd-styler is really the best that i've played with...even above bombono which is touted as the best lately
<holstein> ScottL_: how much space?
<ScottL_> space?  for dvd-styler install?
<holstein> i mean, we're really talking about a DL size
<holstein> in my opinion
<holstein> if it dont fit on a CD
<holstein> then, i dont really care how much bigger it is
<holstein> but, i got fast-ish internet
<ScottL_> but some users will, especially if they're on dial up
<ScottL_> but here's the real thing i worry about... bloat
<holstein> still, whats the big difference in 1.8 or 1.9 GB's
<ScottL_> if we leave this and then we leave that, next thing we know we have a HUGE disc and no one knows why most of it is there
<holstein> ScottL_: there was a 'clean out' though
<holstein> and i totally think the discussion is getting where it needs to get
<holstein> 'what is the future'
<holstein> what are we trying to do
<holstein> who is our market
<ScottL_> yeah, and i found a very strong work flow for making dvd's, but that doesn't mean there is a demand for it though :/
<holstein> whats US supposed to be out of the box
<holstein> i totally appreciate the task selection
<holstein> but, i dont think a new user knows what that is
<ScottL_> troy_s really scolded me about being excited about making dvd's....he said "welcome to mid 1990's"  LOL
<ScottL_> holstein, i agree about tasksel
<holstein> and i think for our audience
<holstein> a live installer
<holstein> and just sets something up
<holstein> out of the box
<holstein> would be easier for the new user
<holstein> and more like ubuntu
<holstein> but, do we want to be easier?
<holstein> is that important?
<ScottL_> i'm favoring a stripped down (like we are heading) package selection, very strong for the work flows we deem most desired, and maybe not even consider tasksel
<ScottL_> even if we don't do livedvd
<ScottL_> BUT, if we do
<holstein> yup
<holstein> a compromise is fine with me
<ScottL_> then we are already freed up for that
<ScottL_> i need to think this weekend, see if anything is critical right now, if anything needs to be done before the end of Feb
<holstein> yeah
<holstein> feb24
<holstein> the stuff im thinking about
<holstein> changes*
<ScottL_> if not, then maybe i wait until after RPM and then hit the ground running with meeting, and figuring out a direction for the next few releases
<holstein> are really for 12.04
<holstein> the next LTS
 * ScottL_ was making chocolate milk for son
<ScottL_> but also see about forging some relations with "downstream" as well and getting other distros to contribute to development as well
<ScottL_> but most important, i'm tired of _talking_ about things...i want to _do_ something about these things
<ScottL_> so i'd like for meetings and assigning responsibilities to people and start making progress again :)
<holstein> yeah
<holstein> i need to get the meeting announced
<holstein> this week
<holstein> even if its just you and I
<holstein> for some of them
<holstein> brainstorming and contacting whoever
<holstein> the 'regular monthly time' model *should* help get folks here
<ScottL_> yeah, that would be nice
<ScottL_> but hopefull for the meeting where we talk about future releases and livedvd/gui installer others will be in attendance as well :P
<holstein> eventually
<holstein> hopefully sooner than later though
<scott-upstairs> true
<ailo> scott-upstairs: The network-manager caused problems at least in the past, why it was excluded by audio distros
<ailo> Don't know the situation now, but I heard it got better
<ailo> I would like to find out what processes can disrupt audio on a Linux system. I think there are a lot of variables probably
<scott-upstairs> ailo, what i've been told is that the network-manager caused some degradation in performance because it would puts a load on the cpu from time to time which caused xruns
<scott-upstairs> ailo, oh several, including even bluetooth that i believe is there and shouldn't be probably
<scott-upstairs> ailo, a while back cory asked the.muso to include gwibber on the disc but not have it installed even to help this type of stuff
<scott-upstairs> i suspect that the typical ubuntu studio user also uses his computer as a desktop and runs many, many things that might hurt performance
<ailo> It would be nice to get to know what things may disrupt audio performance and at least document it. I'm also thinking about the possibility to further tune the UbuntuStudio Desktop to be more reliable. It is very reliable now with lowlatency kernel, but it wouldn't hurt to know what can make it unreliable, or even jsut enhance performance. On older machines this is a big gain.
<scott-upstairs> absolutely, but then to really see it home would be to create documentation for others to use
<ailo> stocc-upstairs: I've been following the discussion on #ubuntu-artwork and the mail list too. I almost feel like stepping in and talk to the guys. I think it gets a little out of hand sometimes.
<ailo> But hopefully their reaching a solution soon
<scott-upstairs> ailo, i'm not sure that would help, but then again, i'm not sure it wouldn't help :P
<scott-upstairs> but it does seem a little out of control though
<scott-upstairs> what i find strange is that there a many calls to talk to jono or some other person but no one is doing it
<ailo> I'd think they
<ailo> I think they're so occupied with that stuff now, that they won't have time to consider artwork for US
<scott-upstairs> i thought about pm'ing jono about it just as a heads up but he probably has many, many other things to worry about
<scott-upstairs> and these should be reasonable adults and find their own way, if it came down to two camps with diameterically oppossing view, then maybe arbitration with jono or someone would prove helpful
<scott-upstairs> ailo, i agree, we probably wont see help currently :(
<scott-upstairs> but like with other areas, i don't just give up after the first effort, it's cyclic
<scott-upstairs> i'm do other things to help improve ubuntu studio and then come back to trying to get help with artwork after a while
<scott-upstairs> s/i'm/i
<scott-upstairs> errr
<scott-upstairs> s/i'm/i'll
<scott-upstairs> i'm still planning on blogging about needing some help with artwork and i did get one email about helping, so who knows where it will currently go?
<ailo> I'm sure there are lot of guys willing to help provide artwork, but I think the main things is to get someone who can organize just the art bit. Doesn't need to be that big of a deal I think. And in my opinion UbuntuStudio might as well look Ubuntu-like.
<holstein> more ubuntu-like would be fine with me
<holstein> i really like the current theme-ing
<holstein> looks slick
<holstein> but some things are too dark
<holstein> not asthetically
<holstein> too dark to see what you need to
<ailo> That's my first concern too, that it is functional. Dark is nice, like Ambience, but even default Ambience in my opinion is not the most functional. Text is not dark enough, I think.
<ailo> Still, there are worse themes out there
<holstein> functionality
<holstein> and ease of maintaining
<holstein> i think those should be top 2
<holstein> then, slickness, and unique-ness
<ailo> At least if there is no art-work guy, I agree fully.
<holstein> no reason why we cant get all of that
<holstein> thats something that could be taken care of before 11.10 i bet
<holstein> new look and feel
<holstein> unless we get a team
<holstein> then, they can take their time and do whatever
<ailo> I was working on pimping the Ambiance theme and Mono/Humanity icons. It's not much work, and you get functionality, slickness and a bit of uniqueness.
<holstein> works for me
<holstein> let me know if i can test something
<ailo> I could probably do something worth trying out after the freeze deadline. I'm all occupied with the -controls until then.
<holstein> sure
<holstein> i like that
<holstein> something to chip away at
<holstein> and plan for 11.10
<holstein> well, UI freeze is later
<holstein> maybe we can sneak that in
<ailo> I think we could probably do something for this release, if we really want to
<holstein> ailo: we meaning you ;)
<holstein> nah, i'll help if i can
<ailo> holstein: Here's recolored Humanity folders and blue selection color http://dl.dropbox.com/u/7703622/Screenshot-2.png
<ailo> The blue is inspired by the original US theme
<holstein> i like the blue
<holstein> i like colors too
<holstein> im not a big fan of the mono-chrome modern looking scheme
<holstein> the one everyone seems to be stealing from the OSX desktop
<holstein> *or where ever
<ailo> hostein: You'd like colored icons in the indicator field on the panel?
<holstein> sure
<holstein> i preffer that i think
<holstein> not a deal breaker though
<holstein> regular ubuntu is all 'greyed-out'
<ailo> paultag: ping
<paultag> ailo: pong
<paultag> ailo: howdy
<ailo> paultag: What's up? Did you start coding yet? I've come a bit further, so I could add some more stuff now.
<paultag> ailo: just made some cosmetic changes -- git://git.pault.ag/paultag/ubuntustudio-controls.git
<paultag> ailo: I'll do some work (today) after I finish my new release of software "X"
<paultag> let's just say lots of people are looking foward to "X" having a release ;)
<paultag> Oh shit
<paultag> not X11
<paultag> god I'm tried. I need $COFFEE
<ailo> paultag: Alrite. I'll keep working just to educate myself. I'm still just fooling around with basic stuff.
<paultag> ailo: aye :)
<paultag> ailo: I saw what you did, it was flawless
<paultag> ailo: I'll just set up some framework code and slam out a few things
<paultag> but it looks really great
<ailo> Really just copying from the code I've looked into so far. Trying to understand how it's done. There's a few programs here and there that are relevant, but it takes time to look through it. I think I want to do some tutorial later for beginners coding glade(Python.
<paultag> ailo: :)
<ailo> The ones I've seen are nice, but don't cover all the variables.
<ailo> paultag: I added a list function for packages-to-be-installed and packages-to-be-removed, and made the all-extras button toggle all the extras. So, check it out if you want to.
<ailo> And it's based on your version of the code
<paultag> k, thanks
<paultag> ailo: I'll check it out after I get this damn upload together :)
<ailo_> paultag: Working on some bugs..
<paultag> :)
<paultag> we're almost ready to make a fluxbox 1.3 release :)
<paultag> we just pushed it to git, and making a tarball now, debian package is up to date
<paultag> we're closing out huge amounts of bugs
<ailo_> paultag: Ok, now it's ready :P
<paultag> woo! :)
<ailo_> So, ScottL, scott-upstairs. You're going to maintain the -lowlatency? Is it going into the repos now, or what?
<scott-upstairs> ailo_, good questions!  in order...i can and i will if no one else is going to, i'm not sure but i believe that part is up to alessio, uh huh    :)
<ailo_> scott-upstairs: It seemed to me that persia was willing to upload it, but alessio had some doubts
<scott-upstairs> ailo_, aye, it seemed that way to me as well :/
<ailo_> scott-upstairs: I have no doubts as to whether we need it. I could probably maintain it as well. 
<ailo_> The main difference from what I can see between the -generic and the -lowlatency at this point is a few configurations done differently.
<scott-upstairs> ailo_, aye, that is what alessio has stated again and again and again (even though those in the UKT don't seem to grasph that :P  )
<scott-upstairs> grasp even
<ailo_> scott-upstairs: I was able to compile one for Debian with ease. As long as one bases the work on the distros source it aught to be extremely easy. At least as long as the kernel doesn't radically change in some way, in which case one could ask an expert. Testing the kernel before release is a must. Other than that, just follow the instructions, right?
<scott-upstairs> alessio said it was extremely easy, he almost sounded embarrassed by it :)
#ubuntustudio-devel 2011-02-20
<ailo_> paultag: Im trying to figure out how to set a checkbutton checked without having that button send a signal. Is it possible?
<ailo_> I'm reading the gtk reference, but I can't find anything that would do that.
<paultag> ailo_: I think you can set it to checked with a call, what are you trying to do?
<paultag> ailo_: to check stuff that should be checked or something?
<ailo_> paultag: Yeah, but I don't want the button to send a signal after it was checked.
<ailo_> Just set in checked mode so to speak
<paultag> ailo_: I'm pretty sure you can do that
<paultag> ailo_: let me fire up some man pages
<paultag> moment
<ailo_> paultag: Maybe I'm just going about it in the wrong way. I want to read settings and set the buttons accordingly.
<paultag> ailo_: yuppers
<paultag> ailo_: looks like it forces it's state
<paultag> ailo_: why not set button states before you hook up callbacks?
<paultag> the more I think about it, that's how I'd do it, I think
<ailo_> Did you do any coding yet? My work today feels very hacky then anything.
<paultag> ailo_: yeah I started prototyping some of where I thought it will go, and I feel like it's hacky as well
<paultag> ailo_: I feel like most of this is becoming wrapped shell calls
<paultag> ailo_: so I'm thinking about it right now, I've got the code up
<ailo_> Are you using subprocess?
<paultag> ailo_: I'm just going to wrap system(), screw it :)
<paultag> ailo_: anyway, it's ok
<paultag> ailo_: I think I have a good way to do most of this (in my head)
<ailo_> paultag: Yeah, most of it is just installing/removing so far. Don't think there will be a realtime kernel.
<paultag> ailo_: damn.
<paultag> ailo_: anyway, yeah, we can just "batch" up actions in a queue, then push them all out and process them at once when we hit ok / apply
<ailo_> I mean -realtime. -lowlatency I'm hoping will be in the repos, though
<ailo_> That's what I figured, why I create a list of packages to be installed/removed
<ailo_> I've been trying to figure out how to edit the audio.conf file. Still not piecing it together fully.
<ailo_> And what is missing is check if user is in audio group
<paultag> ailo_: it's going to be a hack, for sure. Let's not kid ourselfs, it's going to be a hack! :)
<paultag> ailo_: we'll just find a way to get it done and do it, we've got 9 days till we *need* to be done
<paultag> :)
<paultag> I think doing a line-by-line read and replace might be the way to go
<paultag> we need only put a warning up on top that it might be upgefucked
<ailo_> Yeah, we need to add some warnings here and there. First I thought we get the all the functions working, and that's why I think it would be nice if we have a working program within a few days
<paultag> aye
<paultag> we're honestly not that far
<ailo_> I've been working on the packages thing. Memlock/audio.conf needs to be done, adding user to audio group, and finally running all commands in one single shell command.
<ailo_> We need to ask for password, but only once
<paultag> truth
<ailo_> paultag: If we drop the combobox for choosing a user we'll make it easier on ourself. Also, if no one know how to set what kernel to boot by default (-generic, -lowlatency) we can drop that too for now.
<ailo_> What is left is just installing packages, adding the current user to audio group, adding audio.conf or reading memlock value from it(and editing it).
<ailo_> I'm pretty close at finishing up the package install lists as well as syncing the buttons to that.
<ailo_> paultag: We'll need to redesign the glade file a bit, by just copy/paste the controls a bit.
<ailo_> paultag: I think I want to finish the program today, just that it will probably be ugly and in the worst case buggy. I thought if I do that, you can use that code if you want to or not. Also, since we won't have all the features present in the current glade file it makes more sence to have a one window app, so I will redesign the glade file today as well. What do you think?
<ailo_> ScottL_: persia: Let's get the -lowlatency in. What's missing, guys?
<ScottL_> i think that is between abogannia and persia at this time ailo_ 
<ScottL_> perhaps alessio is waiting for me to build the -lowlatency kernel myself as well, dunno?
<ailo_> ScottL_: paultag: Again, a version with everything on one page. Do we need more features than this for this release? http://imagebin.org/138867
<ailo_> ScottL_: paultag: Will this do? http://imagebin.org/138870
<ailo_> Made it a little prettier
<ScottL_> ailo_, the second one certainly looks prettier :)
<ScottL_> ailo_, an explanation for "set ubuntu studio defaults" might be helpful to users
<ailo_> Scott_: I will add popups for those. Also hitting accept or Ok will popup an explanation as to what is going to happen, and let the user decide to accept or not.
<ailo_> After the app is done, I will create a wiki page for the controls
<ScottL_> cool
<ailo_> So, hitting help will open a browser to that page
<ScottL_> ailo_, there is a page for the controls, you might want to update that one
<ScottL_> but that is a very cool idea :)
<ailo_> ScottL_: Ok, good.
<ScottL_> ailo_, this is the page:  https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuStudioControls
<ScottL_> notice that i deprecated the old stuff, can you please do that for this as well?
<ScottL_> if someone is running the LTS version then they would probably appreciate "current" information for their -controls
<ailo_> ScottL: I'll have a look. I'll focus more on the wiki as soon as the -controls are out of the way.
<paultag> ailo_: that will do for sure
<paultag> ailo_: feeling good?
<ailo_> paultag: I'm fine. You?
<paultag> ailo_: quite well, thanks. Feeling good about the code?
<ailo_> paultag: It's ok. A little messy right now, but that's just because I'm not used to coding.
<ailo_> I'll try to finish what I can and clean it up
<paultag> :)
<ailo_> I was using tabs all the time. Seems to work, but isn't Python-like
<paultag> ailo_: I use tabs
<paultag> :)
<paultag> Now, time to see if this package rocks or not :)
<paultag> fluxbox is looking fly as all hell
#ubuntustudio-devel 2012-02-13
<astraljava> len-1204: They seem to be related to the last revision, in which falktx mentions support being added for both Xfce and KDE menus.
<falktx> len-1204: I did my research there, that was the best method I could come up with that worked in most DEs (at least Gnome, XFCE and KDE)
<falktx> the old method only worked properly on Gnome
<falktx> didn't worked on XFCE and had issues with KDE
<len-1204> Oh boy... Ok, Scott wanted some changes, I was going to try some.... Are we wooried about anything other than xfce still?
<falktx> ubuntustudio-menu package is installable in any DE
<falktx> It makes sense to make that it supports more than just xfce
<holstein> falktx: i like where your head is at with that
<falktx> :)
<len-1204> I figured... 
<len-1204> Any idea which one is which?
<falktx> which?
<len-1204> the menu files.
<falktx> len-1204: only the "remove old entry" is duplicated
<falktx> the big file is the main one
<len-1204> which one is for which desktop kind
<falktx> hm?
 * falktx is confused
<len-1204> The idea of the files in /etc/xdg is that they should work with any desktop enviro.
<len-1204> so how come I have two files that do the same thing?
<len-1204> If they are to support more than one DE then which one supports which DE?
<falktx> ah
<falktx> I don't remember the details now
<len-1204> There are two files (see above) that take a bunch of AV menu items out of mutimedia and split them into video and audio production
<falktx> but I'm sure the xfce-applications.menu symlink if for xfce
<len-1204> Ja ;-)
<falktx> len-1204: as I said, one of those files only contains the "removed entries" desktop files
<falktx> there's basically
<falktx> - big file, contatins all data
<falktx> - small file, contains removed entries (duplicated from big file, for compatibility with other DEs)
<falktx> - xfce symlink
<falktx> I don't remeber the filenames now (for the big and small file)
<falktx> I did my testing, and that config syntax was the best I could achieve
<falktx> I use it for my custom kxstudio-menu package
<len-1204> So to fiddle with anything I need to install kde and gnome as well?
<falktx> btw, it works here in razor-qt as well
<falktx> len-1204: no, the menu file (should) support all
<falktx> ie, support whatever DE is installed, if they follow the specs
<falktx> I think the duplicated removed entries is for gnome, now that I think of it...
<len-1204> so http://standards.freedesktop.org is a good place to look for what is going on?
<falktx> len-1204: note - most DEs don't follow standards
<len-1204> That includes gnome3?
<falktx> gnome2 and xfce
<falktx> len-1204: I never tested with gnome3
<falktx> afaik, it doesn't use this kind of menu
<falktx> the "legacy menu" is only available with custom extensions afaik
<len-1204> Oh yeah, shold have thought of that... unity either
<falktx> yep
<falktx> I believe this works with 'cardapio' app
<falktx> I remember seeing it working once
<len-1204> I don't get out enough...
<falktx> someone should test lxde and check if the menu is still valid there
<len-1204> I think I will start with the xfce stuff and migrate from there.
<falktx> len-1204: you want to add more apps to the menu files?
<len-1204> another menu or two. Scott wants to take the audio pro and video pro menus out of multimedia and into main
<falktx> really?
<len-1204> Leave MM for desktop stuff.
<falktx> so we would have:
<falktx> - Audio
<falktx> - Video
<falktx> - Multimedia
<falktx> the 3?
<len-1204> maybe more or just sub menus in audio
<falktx> len-1204: I can easily make the menu changes when needed, since I made them ;)
<len-1204> But that is the idea.
<falktx> len-1204: just tell me which changes to make (when definitive)
<len-1204> I think video can stand as it is, but I was going to put a sub menu for sound gen and maybe one for mixers (there are all these card specific mixers)
<len-1204> Part of the problem is I still don't know what apps we will actually finally end up with.
<len-1204> I was hoping they would get put in sooner than later.
<falktx> well, we need to all apps in the menu anyway
<falktx> ie, if the user installs a daw that doesn't come with US by default, it still should go to the proper menu place
<falktx> so, we just put all possible desktop files, right?
<len-1204> They will, the question is where... it would probably end up in MM
<len-1204> ardour 3 already does.
<falktx> MM?
<len-1204> multimedia
<len-1204> falktx: it looks like basically the audio and video menus are custom made deals. Most of these files are either audio or video, but there doesn't seem to be a way of splitting them up and still using MM as a catch all.
<len-1204> for example audacious would end up in adio
<len-1204> audio if we just put all audio thing in audio
<len-1204>  but we want it in MM.
<len-1204> So the excludes and includes have tried to deal with more than just what we ship.
<len-1204> There are lots of sub categories in the spec... like audiovideo,audio,mixer, but nobody seems to have used them.
<len-1204> Or, they have used so many...
<len> Ok, changing the one in the /etc/xdg/menus/appliactions-merged directory changes things in the xfce menu right away.
<len-1204> Hmm, does it matter on the main menu where the audio and video selections fall?
<len-1204> Right now the audio is second from the top and video is at the bottom. I was thinking to put them together. any opinions?
<len-1204> ScottL ^^^
<ScottL> len-1204, i had considered putting the audio, video, and graphic (and probably photography) menus together in their own section
<len-1204> ScottL: Ok I will put a separator in. Should the three be before settings then right at the top?
<len-1204> ScottL: I had not thought about photography as different from graphics. So many of the apps might be used for either or.
<len-1204> I could put some repeats...
<holstein> len-1204: ping
<holstein> len: 
<len-1204> Aye
<holstein> len-1204: you busy for about 20 minutes?
<len-1204> I can be free a bit. What would yopu like?
<holstein> len-1204: you want to work on this installer slide show with me?
<len-1204> Ok, do you have it on a web site?
<holstein> nope
<len-1204> OK
<holstein> im actually just getting started
<holstein> i was thinking about trying to share my screen with you over team viewer or something
<holstein> let me see how challening that is going to be
<len-1204> I don't have anything not in US1204
<holstein> i know
<holstein> i think im going to tyr and get away with using my production machine
<holstein> its 10.04
<holstein> but the stuff looks the same
<holstein> i dont thing we need shots of the menus and stuff, since that is still in flux
<len-1204> It is just a web page. If you take the ubiquity one we have now and hit the browser with the index.html file it works in firefox
<len-1204> I would just put screen shots of apps
<holstein> yeah, thats what i was thinking
<len-1204> We could even use the same shot they do for firefox
<holstein> sure
<len-1204> It may be easiest if I fire up the live dvd so i have access to the size of pictures they use.
<len-1204> the ones they have in xubunutu
<len-1204> xubuntu
<holstein> that would be great!
<len-1204> are too big. they push the bottom progress bar off the bottom of the screen
<holstein> knome told me the sizes
<holstein> not that i remember where that went
<len-1204> Ya but they were the same as xubuntu I think
<len-1204>  c u in two or so.
<holstein> cool!
<Len-live> holstein: I'm back
<holstein> Len-live: does this work? http://go.teamviewer.com/v7/m28470806
<Len-live> I get :You need a newer version of Adobe Flash Player to use TeamViewer. You can download this player 
<holstein> you cant just force it?
<micahg> flash should be up to date in all releases
<Len-live> I would have thought... but I am live. I may have to download it.
<micahg> yes, we don't ship flash on media
<holstein> Len-live: not a deal breaker
<Len-live> I don't get the normal installer either.
<Len-live> Ok, I went to youtube... now loading.
<holstein> http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1172535/pictures/ubuntustudio/jack1.png
<Len-live> Anyway, slideshow.conf says 752x442
<Len-live> With the size that you sent you would have to put any text on top.
<Len-live> their browser shot is 448X304
<ScottL> holstein, Len-live , don't forget about the roadmap that links to the slideshow specs (including image sizes, etc)
<ScottL> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/Roadmap
<Len-live> That sure gets the point across about lots of connections though.
<holstein> ScottL: cool... that'll do it
<ScottL> i would suggest keeping in mind what you want to feature or highlight about what ubuntu studio represents or offers
<holstein> Len-live: let me just link some, and you through out ideas
<ScottL> e.g., show jack and say that it offers infinite connections and hyper-low latencies
<holstein> if we get the shots and the text together, i can do the size
<ScottL> jack has unlimited tracks, in-line plugins, automated faders, etc, etc
<ScottL> basically i was stealing those lines from their respective website ;)
<holstein> http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1172535/pictures/ubuntustudio/ardour.png
<Len-live> Ok, that gets two apps at once though we don't have to. We could adjust the slide chaneg rate too
<Len-live> Again though I don't see where you would put the text
<holstein> Len-live: knome said if they are the correct size, we just get the text to him and he'll knock it out
<holstein> not really sure how
<holstein> Len-live: are you alright with those 2?
<Len-live> Knock it out as in put it on top? I was looking at the original and it has text beside the images for the most part
<Len-live> they have good content.
<ScottL> holstein, i didn't look at the image but combining jack and ardour wouldn't be a bad thing to do
<Len-live> He had ardour and jammin
<ScottL> that's good too :)
<Len-live> The first was qjackdctl with the conection screen open behind.
<Len-live> We should use the one they have for shotwell
<holstein> man... i dont know *anything* about blender
<holstein> yup... agreed about shotwell
<holstein> Len-live: is there a "gimp" one? i was about to do that
<Len-live> Can leave the text the same too
<Len-live> No there is no gimp
<holstein> we need a GIMP?
<holstein> i mean, i want JACK and ardour for sure
<holstein> the GIMP and blender were on my list
<Len-live> They have a browse, office, USC, customize, photographs, mobilize, social, music and startfast
<holstein> Len-live: are you a MIDI guy?
<Len-live> I would do something with gimp, not sure what... I don't know blender either
<Len-live> i know what a chord looks like on a key board... ;-)
<holstein> hehe
<holstein> Len-live: i say we use one from the blender site
<holstein> you agree?
<Len-live> Good idea
<Len-live> I haven't seen it, but I figure they know what it can do
<Len-live> I think the only two we can use from the original Sliideshow are the shotwell and browser.
<holstein> nice text here too :)
<Len-live> Ok.
<Len-live> Looking at the blender site I am not sure which one.
<holstein> Len-live: i got one
<holstein> http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1172535/pictures/ubuntustudio/blender.png
<holstein> http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1172535/pictures/ubuntustudio/gimp.png
<holstein> let me load up a screenie of midi apps
<Len-live> holstein: Both look good, but I have to go, the family needs me
<Len-live> Ok one more
<Len-live> You guys with the uprights sure like to bend those strings. A friend of mine hits them pretty hard too.
<Len-live> I thought I was rough, but mine is amplified.
<holstein> hehe
<holstein> Len-live: thanks for the help
<Len-live> Ok, if you leave a link up I'll look when I get back
<holstein> Len-live: i think id like to keep the shotwell one only
<holstein> i think the FF one will be out of place
<holstein> and, some folks doing audio production dont have their machines online
<Len-live> Ok, not exactly inspirational anyway.
<Len-live> holstein: did you find a midi shot?
<holstein> Len-live: lemme link you the shots i have
<holstein> SO, im thinking no on the FF one
<holstein> but lets keep the openshot one
<holstein> then...
<holstein> http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1172535/pictures/ubuntustudio/ardour.png
<holstein> http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1172535/pictures/ubuntustudio/blender.png
<holstein> http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1172535/pictures/ubuntustudio/effects.png
<holstein> http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1172535/pictures/ubuntustudio/effets2.png
<holstein> http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1172535/pictures/ubuntustudio/gimp.png
<holstein> http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1172535/pictures/ubuntustudio/jack1.png
<holstein> http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1172535/pictures/ubuntustudio/MIDI1.png
<holstein> http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1172535/pictures/ubuntustudio/qtractor.png
<holstein> that would be 9
<holstein> there are 2 rakarrack-ish ones though
<Len-live> I would take the qtracktor over the hydrogen one
<Len-live> Hydrogen is really good, but the other shows whats going on better
<Len-live> It would be nice if we had a video editing something.
<holstein> Len-live: i had lsd make it for me :)
<holstein> Len-live: thats openshot right?
<holstein> or is that photo?
<Len-live> open shot is more photography
<holstein> i really like kden
<holstein> but thats mis-representinng i think
<Len-live> Hard to show video editing in a still though
<holstein> ScottL: are you home?
<Len-live> It may be a bit late for him
<holstein> hmmm....
<holstein> he has some video projects though...
<holstein> Len-live: what editor is "default" ?
<Len-live> which kind of editor? video?
<holstein> yup
<Len-live> Oops open shot is video, I was thinking shotwell that is photo
<holstein> Len-live: COOL
<holstein> that makes things easier
<holstein> or was that shotwell in the slider?
<holstein> prolly was
<Len-live> the other is xjdeo
<Len-live> xjadeo is how its spelt
<holstein> hehe
<Len-live> there is a subtitle editor as well.
<Len-live> the slider had shotwell.
<holstein> lets just use http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1172535/pictures/ubuntustudio/openshot.png
<holstein> and i think we are done
<holstein> i mean, choosing, that is
<Len-live> That works
<Len-live> What are you using as title?
<holstein> Len-live: not sure yet
<holstein> im going to look over the guidelines
<holstein> get the sizes right
<holstein> steal from the sites as much as possible
<Len-live> Easiest way to do it
<Len-live> holstein: I'm rebooting back to 1204 installed to do some more menu playing.
<holstein> Len-live: cool
<holstein> im going to crash
<holstein> im beat!
<Len-live> night
<holstein> knome: i should have all this ready for you tomorrow... thanks!
<knome> holstein, sure
<holstein> knome: ping
<knome> holstein, dong
<holstein> o/
<holstein> knome: im resizing the slides.. do you have a second?
<knome> yeah, a second maybe :)
<holstein> 215x130 is *really* cramping the style
<holstein> not useable
<holstein> did you say there was a bigger size if i *dont* have just one window?
<holstein> the res has to be 72 right?
<holstein> i can take smaller parts of the screen shot as well.. im just seeking input
<knome> 215x130? who said that?
<holstein> im referencing https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Ubiquity/Slideshow
<holstein> knome: i didnt make a note of what you had said, though i should have
<knome> right.
<holstein> i remember there being a few size options
<knome> so
<knome> the sizes are
<knome> either 450x410 (if it's cut from right-bottom, like: http://temp.knome.fi/ubuntustudio/slideshow/04_abiword.png)
<holstein> im am putting these in a text file in dropbox *right* *now* !
<knome> or, 440x370, if you're presenting a "full" shot, like: http://temp.knome.fi/ubuntustudio/slideshow/04_abiword.png
<holstein> knome: thanks... i think that'll do it
<knome> ok, good
<scott-work> TheMuso: did you get your changes into REVU? i don't think i see any updates
<TheMuso> scott-work: No, for some reason I am unable to upload to review, the incoming directory doesn't appear to exist on the server after the downtime last week...
<scott-work> TheMuso: hmmm, i had trouble as well earler but siretart helped me
<TheMuso> scott-work: How so?
<scott-work> TheMuso:  i managed to dput it up, although it went to a rejected directory or similar, but siretart pulled it out and put it in new
<TheMuso> scott-work: Right...
<TheMuso> scott-work: That doesn't really help, as revu uploads are broken for everybody else.
<ScottL> TheMuso, i meant that maybe siretart might be able to help
<len> ScottL: is there any reason not to do things as xubuntu has done for menus. They have made their own xdg directory and done everything from scratch.
<TheMuso> ScottL: Thanks, seems someone is around who has admin powers to have a look.
<ScottL> len, is that not what falktx_ did with our menu?
<ScottL> len, also, are you able to install from the live dvd image?
<len> ScottL: No, he has just merged into the stock one.
<len> Yes I can install.
<ScottL> len, oh, didn't know that :/
<len> At least two days ago. I did not try yesterdays or todays.
<len> Xubuntu created a directory /etc/xdg/xubuntu-xdg and put a copy of anything in xdg in there and then made what they want and set the configpath to that instead of /etyc/xdg
<len> It would mean changing some other things, but might make setting up themes etc easier too.
<TheMuso> ScottL: Ok uploading now, will take a while.
<ScottL> TheMuso, exciting!  thank you :)
<TheMuso> To revu that is...
<ScottL> yeah, i know ;)
<len> ScottL: is there any reason to try another install just now? I have been using the last one to play with menus.
<ScottL> len, i don't know, i'm just trying to get one installed
<ScottL> len, do you choose "install" from the first menu or go live then install it?
<len> The one problem with replacing the xdg menu is for those who are running something else and installing our meta.
<len> I have done it both ways, but mostly from live.
<len> It means I can run xchat and start an xtermto  do less /var/log/syslog so I can watch what is going on.
<len> I can also set up jackd to RT before first boot and add the default.desktop to make sure lightdm works.
<len> I was waiting for some changes before I did another install.
<len> ScottL: I think I have answered my own question on the menus... I will work with it the way it is.
<len> We are supporting a different base of people than xubuntu and expect people may install one meta in some other distro. I don't want to wreck their setup, just add to it.
<len> I have got to the point of having the four extra menus, it is just the separating them to their own part of the menu with a separator. More work tonight if I have time.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2012-02-14
<TheMuso> ScottL: Ok uploaded, but it hasn't shown up on the revu page yet...
<holstein> len-1204: YO
<holstein> len-1204: you want to go through the text with me?
<holstein> len: 
<holstein> i think i have the shots straight and cropped
<len-1204> holstein: ok
<holstein> len-1204: you doing well?
<holstein> let me move this to a shared google doc...
<len-1204> Ok,
<len-1204> I hope I can remember my log in :-)
<holstein> len-1204: https://docs.google.com/document/d/17ZNRuuoM5RvodxItTKXzPKTV__58Ap_qMzRdLanb87A/edit
<holstein> i dont think anyone it here will mess with us :)
<len-1204> Are you going with things in the order they are?
<holstein> len-1204: thats just the way the pics are
<holstein> i dont think thats the order
<holstein> the final order or whatever
<len-1204> Ok, I would say put audio together and photo together etc.
<holstein> len-1204: if you want, put a # out in front of the entry in whatever order you think thy should be in
<holstein> and ill drag them around
<len-1204> Do you have a ustudio main one?
<holstein> len-1204: hmmm not really
<holstein> len-1204: do you want to take one from the live CD?
<len-1204> All there are that I can find is backgrounds
<holstein> len-1204: thats probably fine
<holstein> len-1204: how about just whatever you want to have
<len-1204> The one in ubuntu is very simple. I would almost go with the bottom left corner of ubuntustudio-ayo.png
<len-1204> I don't seem to be able to enter text on the doc.
<len-1204> do you have to share it or some thing
<holstein> len-1204: do you have a google account?
<len-1204> I just sent it to you... lenovens@gmail.com
<holstein> len-1204: ok.. you should be juiced up
<len-1204> I'll try.
<ScottL> i worry that i'm in over my head on the theming because the live-dvd doesn't look like xubuntu at all, it looks like the default xfce stuff
<holstein> len-1204: i can size it or whatever
<len-1204> Yes it is xfceish
<len-1204> holstein: I'm not thinking size just yet, just thinking story line
<ScottL> len-1204, how you tried xubuntu yet?  11.04, 11.10, or 12.04 are all good indicators
<ScottL> the xubuntu/shimmer team have done a good job with their theme
<len-1204> IScottL: I use 11.10 on my notebook.
<len-1204> oops ScottL
<len-1204> I seem to have lost my back logging
<len-1204> ScottL: Do you have a xubuntu installed somewhere?
<len-1204> They tend to use their own data directories.
<len-1204> Then set the path to that instead.
<len-1204> They are assuming a fresh install or upgrade from xubuntu.
<len-1204> Not putting kubuntu in (for example) and upgrading to xubuntu or putting xubuntu metas on top.
<TheMuso> ScottL: Ok, linux-lowlatency uploaded and now on revu.
<holstein> W00T!
<len-1204> Great!
<len-1204> holstein: how does it look so far?
<holstein> len-1204: im liking it!
<ScottL> holstein, len-1204 :  the kernel is NOT in the repos
<ScottL> it is just available for people to look at it and comment and/or approve it
<len-1204> One step at a time...
<ScottL> len-1204, yeah, i started with the xubuntu -default-settings and -artwork packages and tried to parse those into our package structure, but i apparently didn't do something right :/
<ScottL> len-1204, very true about one step :)
<holstein> revu is a good start ScottL :)
<ScottL> i agree
<ScottL> but i worry that we apparently have until only thursday to get it approved and uploaded :/
<len-1204> We hsould have Lyx included.
<len-1204> *should
<holstein> len-1204: you got text on everything :)
<len-1204> Does the story work?
<holstein> https://docs.google.com/document/d/17ZNRuuoM5RvodxItTKXzPKTV__58Ap_qMzRdLanb87A/edit
<holstein> len-1204: im going to put it in order now
<len-1204> Those are pretty short blurbs
<len-1204> I need to get some supper for my boys, Mom is out for the evening.
<holstein> len-1204: how do you feel about !'s?
<holstein> A whole studio on your computer! for example
<holstein> len-1204: also.. id like to change...
<holstein> For ease of recording keyboards, midi tracking is the way to go. Use the provided sound modules or you own external boxes
<holstein> Use the provided sound modules or you own external boxes to make MIDI and MIDI sequencing easy.
<holstein> NM.. this...
<holstein> Use provided software synthesisers or your own external sound modules to make MIDI sequencing easy.
<holstein> len-1204: OK.. i made a few tweaks
<holstein> i like it!
<holstein> # 3 is the one id like to change though
<len-1204> Ja, do it.
<holstein> len-1204: COOL!
<holstein> len-1204: im going to ping knome about it
<holstein> knome: we got something... https://docs.google.com/document/d/17ZNRuuoM5RvodxItTKXzPKTV__58Ap_qMzRdLanb87A/edit
<holstein> len-1204: thanks *so* much!
<len-1204> holstein: No problem... just jabber.
<ScottL> i'm going to poke cjwatson to help about the ubiquity problems and a few others, at least he can tell me who to poke in turn at least
<ScottL> but i really, really want to make progress again
<ScottL> i think i'm going to skip doing the RPM challenege to focus on ubuntu studio
<ScottL> but don't tell ricardus, holstein ;)
<holstein> :/
<holstein> ScottL: just knock something live out like im going to do :)
<len-1204> ScottL: ping
<len-1204> Sorry prolly too late.
<len-1204> Anyway, should you read this when you get up.... looking at the differences from US to XU, I can see that XU seems to have pretty much left the /etc/xdg directory alone. they have put everything in a sub directory. We have tried to follow that style, but left lots in the xdg dir as well.
<len-1204> This means that we have to leave /etc/xdg in the path. I don't think XU has.
<len-1204> I would make one change in what you have there.
<len-1204> In the file xfwm4.xml, I would change <property name="theme" type="string" value="greybird"/>
<len-1204> I would change greybird to default.
<len-1204> I would still use greybird in the xsettings.xml file though.
<len-1204> The backdrop is a hard pick between olis (what you have) and ayo (what I happen have here right now)
<len-1204> So I would leave it.
<len-1204> Hmm, in /etc/X11/Xsession.d/25ubuntustudio-menu
<len-1204> you have included /etc/xdg but not /etc/xdg/xdg-ubuntustudio
<len-1204> I can't find where XU sets path.
<TheMuso> ScottL: So I am about to go afk for a while, maybe the rest of the day. Now that the kernel is on revu, its time to get someone else to look at it. I may be able to poke people tomorrow, but if you could ask around as well, that would be much appreciated.
<knome> holstein, okay, thanks. i'll sort it out today
<knome> scott-work, ScottL ?
<knome> holstein too
<scott-work> knome:  ping
<holstein> knome: thanks!
<holstein> im around later, so if i need to tweak something, let me know
<holstein> scott-work: i think we should be ready for a media response if that kernel doesnt make it through
<scott-work> #ubuntu-motu
<scott-work> okay, poking people about the kernel now in #ubuntu-motu and #ubuntu-kernel
<holstein> scott-work: :)
<holstein> im still on a rather non-technical level with that im afraid, but if i can help with the poking, let me know
<scott-work> i'm going to hit cjwatson up later today i think to ask for help on the ubiquity crashes and a few other things because i bloody want this release to work!
<holstein> scott-work: im still *so* excited about it
<scott-work> i'd like to start pokign some of the xubuntu/shimmer guys for help with the theme because it is still not fooking working at all!
<holstein> that live CD loading up just got me going!
<holstein> for me, the biggest deal breakers in look and feel are the wallpaper, and the login hot-pink screen... that little main menu XFCE icon would be nice to change to the old studio one too
<scott-work> holstein: yes, those are things i want to change
<holstein> i dont mind the general theme at all
<holstein> the icons or whatever
<holstein> i mean, they "work"
<holstein> i guess what im talking about is more branding and de-branding
<holstein> it would be nice if, as an alternative, a xubuntu user could install ubuntustudio-desktop or whatever and just get our UI
<scott-work> holstein: i think the current theme is shit and it isn't what i want at all
<scott-work> holstein: if you are seeing what i'm seeing, that is
<holstein> not sure
<scott-work> it looks like the default xfce stuff coming in and not the xubuntu theme
<holstein> its just one of the default ones
<holstein> but when i login as ubuntustudio session, its darker
<scott-work> what i want is xubuntu theme just like when you pop in the xubuntu live cd
<holstein> scott-work: my install is kind of borked right now
<holstein> i might need to reinstall
<scott-work> i haven't been able to get an install to work for a while either, that's why i want to poke cjwatson about this
<scott-work> how can i fix the theme if i can't get a working install?
<holstein> i check in ubuntu+1, but i think we have special breakages :)
<holstein> scott-work: i know right :/
<holstein> ScottL: question... can we get audactiy beck in the default install?
<holstein> audacity*
<holstein> i seem to remember there being a decent reason why it was pulled, i just cant remember it
<holstein> cfhowlett: i found http://comments.gmane.org/gmane.linux.ubuntu.devel.ubuntu-studio/2733
<cfhowlett> ScottL: I'm a user, not a dev.  If my first exposure to audio editing had been ardour, I'd have run away in fear.  Audacity is much easier for new users.  Audio engineers can still add ardour in post-installation.  Just my $0.02 that a Digital Media distro pretty much MUST include Audacity.
<cfhowlett> holstein: reading.  tyvm
<holstein> im going to post some lines here for scott-work 
<holstein> 13:37 < holstein> ScottL: question... can we get audactiy beck in the default install?
<holstein> 13:37 < holstein> audacity*
<holstein> 13:38 < holstein> i seem to remember there being a decent reason why it was pulled, i just cant remember it
<holstein> 13:39 < holstein> cfhowlett: i found http://comments.gmane.org/gmane.linux.ubuntu.devel.ubuntu-studio/2733
<holstein> 13:40 < cfhowlett> ScottL: I'm a user, not a dev.  If my first exposure to audio editing had been ardour, I'd have run away in  fear.  Audacity is much easier for new users.  Audio engineers can still add ardour in post-installation.   Just my $0.02 that a Digital Media distro pretty much MUST include Audacity.
<holstein> sorry for the ugly non-pastbin pasting :/
<scott-work> it's okay, we're going to add audacity back
<holstein> scott-work: cool, i just couldnt remember where we had landed with it
<cfhowlett> scott-work: yay!  Audacity and Gimp are my go to apps for demo'ing cool US stuff to new users.  Happy it's back!  
<holstein> cfhowlett: feel free and hang over here too
<holstein> you ave really helping out a lot in the main support channel, and we appreciate it !
<holstein> you are*
<cfhowlett> *blushes*
<holstein> scott-work = ScottL = the ubuntustudio team lead
<cfhowlett> holstein: Kinda figured.  :)
<knome> scott-work, greybird? we've made some changes to that to fix (mostly) gtk3, you should probably ask micahg to pull those for you as well
<knome> scott-work, you still online? holstein, or you? :)
<holstein> whats up?
<holstein> knome: im about to run
<knome> do you have more time later then?
<holstein> knome: in like 8 hours
<knome> it's nothing critical
<holstein> are you aroung then?
<holstein> or tomorrow morning
<holstein> im loose then for about 2 hours
<knome> probably not, it's 5:30am then ;)
<holstein> hmmm
<knome> <- UTC+2
<knome> but tomorrow morning might be okay, at what time?
<holstein> my 10:30 am ish
<holstein> EST
<holstein> 20 hours from now?
<knome> ok, sounds like it could work :)
<knome> ping me then
<holstein> knome: will do!
<knome> thanks
<holstein> laters
<knome> see you
<micahg> the theme changes shouldn't need "pulling in", otherwise, we as Xubuntu are doing something wrong with the packaging
<knome> ah, right, so studio is inheriting?
<knome> in that case some of it might just not be *pushed* yet :)
<knome> but ochosi and mr_pouit have been working a lot on greybird lately
<scott-work> knome: sorry, i'm here
<scott-work> the problem i believe we are having is that the theme is not being set
<scott-work> when you start the live -dvd you get asked about panel layout, i.e. "choose empy, default, or one panel"
<scott-work> i'm guessing i probably need to talk to ochosi or mrprout for these though
<knome> yeah
<knome> so
<knome> scott-work,     bzr branch lp:~ubuntustudio-dev/ubiquity-slideshow-ubuntu/precise
<knome> scott-work, then run test-slideshow.sh and select ubuntu studio
<scott-work> knome:  this is unreleated to theme, this is just to test the slide show, correct?
<knome> yeah, that's correct
 * scott-work will have to wait until home and test it on his ubuntu machine
<knome> i'm not that aware about the theme issues
<knome> sure
<knome> when will you be home?
<scott-work> knome: less than four hours
<knome> okay, can you ping me then and we can go through a few things
<scott-work> knome: sure :)
<knome> meh. i'm going to sleep. see you all tomorrow.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2012-02-15
<ScottL> knome, when you get awake or back or both....ping :)
<Len-1204> ScottL:...
<Len-1204> The themes are fine. Only two changes needed. The default session needs to be changed to ubuntustudio instead of xfce and the path needs to be fixed for the lightdm background
<Len-1204> A lot of the menu icons don't work... but I think that is my messing around with the menus.
<Len-1204> The bottom panel is missing stuff too, but that is because it is xubuntu-esque and can't find stuff.
<ScottL> Len-1204, that is good new
<ScottL> news
<ScottL> i just wish i could get an install to actually, you know...install
<Len-1204> Ya, when I log in with the US session picked it works.
<Len-1204> when does it quit?
<Len-1204> are you using the 32 or the64 bit install?
<ScottL> i tried both, but the 64 bit is a new build from parts so i don't really have a baseline with it
<Len-1204> I only have the 32 bit stuff.
<ScottL> the 32 bit has hyperthreading (HT) and is kinda unstable at times but seems to install xubuntu well enough
<ScottL> i'm curretnly installing xubuntu on the 64 bit to make sure it handles the installs
<Len-1204> I have had no problems installing..
<Len-1204> ScottL: Do you have a live session?
<ScottL> i do have live session
<ScottL> the 32 bit seems to install but then hangs during booting
<ScottL> i get the plymouth theme going and then it goes to a text screen and starts the ....
<ScottL> Checking for something or other                         [OK]
<Len-1204> Then you are ok. When it stalls hit alt F1 and log in
<ScottL> ^^^ above x6 or so
<ScottL> oh....okay :)
<ScottL> Len-1204, is that because of hte lightdm business?
<Len-1204> then sudo bash and cd /usr/share/xgreeters
<Len-1204> Yup and then ln -s <tab> (to get the file name and then default.desktop
<Len-1204> ScottL: I have some menu changes ready. I just need to do a few *.directory files.
<ScottL> Len-1204, but i think the changes need to really be discussed
<ScottL> before making changes
<Len-1204> ScottL: no problem, I seem to have figured it out anyway.
<Len-1204> What are you planning for the second panel?
<Len-1204> Right now you have the xubuntu one, but lots of icons don't work.
<Len-1204> ScottL: right now I have the menu set up so that right below settings there are 4 new menus: Audio Production, Video Production, Graphics and Potography.
<Len-1204> ScottL: there is a file in /etc/lightdm called lightdm.conf
<Len-1204> it has:
<Len-1204> [SeatDefaults]
<Len-1204> user-session=xfce
<Len-1204> allow-guest=false
<Len-1204> Maybe change the user-session to ubuntustudio.
<ScottL> Len-1204, AH!  you are probably correct :D
<Len-1204> ScottL: not sure what our session is called exactly... I would have to log out to see
<Len-1204> ScottL: There are only two workspaces (desktops) is that the plan?
<Len-1204> I personally find that limiting, 4 or 6.
<Len-1204> (very limiting for trouble shooting distros  ;-)
<Len-1204> ScottL: I think I found the problem with lightdm looking for default.desktop too.
<Len-1204> The same file as above (/etc/lightdm/lightdm.conf) from the xubuntu distro looks like this:
<Len-1204> [SeatDefaults]
<Len-1204> user-session=xubuntu
<Len-1204> greeter-session=lightdm-gtk-greeter
<Len-1204> Notice the last line.
<Len-1204> I think I might leave the no guests thing though.
<micahg> Len-1204: ScottL: I believe the lightdm conf file is set by the postint in xubuntu-default-settings
<Len-1204> I was going to look but seem to have deleted it :/
<Len-1204> Ok, downloaded. yup, that looks like that is how it is done.
<Len-1204> micahg: Thankyou. I figure Scott is asleep by now. I'll send him email though. With the text and the suggested ubuntustudio package to apply it to.
<Len-1204> Our US default-settings pkg seems the postinst and the postrm are the same file.
<Len-1204> Diff shows none.
<Len-1204> ScottL: it seems our ubuntustudio-default-settings pkg the DEBIAN/postinstall has been over written with postrm.
 * micahg think cjwatson proposed a branch or something to clean those up anyways
<Len-1204> US has three or four packages to do what xubuntu does with one... and we drop related files all over the place instead of one directory.
<Len-1204> ScottL: see email.
<knome> ScottL, ping
<ScottL> knome, pong
<knome> ScottL, hey :)
<scott-work> knome: i'm at work now
<knome> scott-work, okay... not at a ubuntu machine? :P
<scott-work> lol, not now, but i did go through the slideshow last night, it was shortly after you went to sleep
<knome> great!
<knome> how did it look?
<scott-work> it was okay, i would suggest some restruction/simplication along with some editing of the text
<scott-work> but that can be handled later, most likely
<knome> well, it's in a branch under ubuntustudio so you could even change the text yourself
<knome> one thing i was thinking about:
<scott-work> capital :)
<knome> do you want welcome/thanks -slides?
<scott-work> knome: i'm not sure, is that something other derivatives do?  is it common practice?  do you want your name in there ;) ?
<scott-work> (that last question was me being a little silly)
<knome> heh i suppose it is
<knome> i mean, welcome slide:
<knome> "welcome to the ubuntu studio installation and thanks for choosing ... blahblah"
<knome> and not "gimp is an image editor that..."
<knome> you know, a bit softer start...
<knome> and thanks in the end, saying thanks again for choosing, you can get support from X, ...
<knome> we have a link to #xubuntu@freenode in the last slide
<knome> it's nice to see people joining and saying thanks
<knome> or maybe asking a few questiong
<knome> s/g/s/
<knome> they're kind of sucked in immediately
<scott-work> knome: those are extremely good suggestions
<scott-work> are you waiting on me for anything on the slideshows?  am i holding you up?
<knome> no, not really
<knome> i'm okay for pushing it to the main branch now really
<scott-work> if not, i will look at this this, especially since it is in a ubuntu studio branch, late after i resolve some lightdm issues
<scott-work> s/late/later
<knome> sure
<knome> the pages are simple html documents
<knome> i mean, *REALLY SIMPLE* :)
 * scott-work should also thank micahg for his repeated hints about the postin files for lightdm :P
<scott-work> knome: good :)
<scott-work> i think i need a few "simple" tasks for a bit
<knome> they are at slideshows/ubuntustudio/slides/
<knome> i will add the slides for welcome and thanks too
<knome> and you can add the content for those too
<scott-work> knome: that would be most welcome!
<scott-work> might have gotten another set of eyes on the lowlatency kernel....this just might make it into the repos in time for precise
<scott-work> but now i worry that i jinxed it by mentioning this
<knome> scott-work, i just pushed a new revision with the two new slides
<scott-work> knome: thank you :)
<knome> np
<knome> did you see my PM earlier?
<scott-work> knome: oh, no, i didn't
<scott-work> can you post it to me again, but on this nick?
<knome> sure :)
<holstein> knome: ping!
<knome> holstein, pong!
<knome> holstein, https://code.launchpad.net/~ubuntustudio-dev/ubiquity-slideshow-ubuntu/precise
<holstein> COOL!
<holstein> is there anything else i can handle?
<knome> well, if you're a member in the dev team in LP, you can edit and push yourself changes
<knome> anyway, could you look through the slideshow and tell if there is something apart from content you'd like changed
<holstein> knome: cool... let me see if i know how to do that :)
<knome> holstein, bzr branch lp:~ubuntustudio-dev/ubiquity-slideshow-ubuntu/precise
<knome> holstein, then cd to ubiquity-slideshow-ubuntu
<knome> holstein, and run test-slideshow.sh and choose ubuntustudio
<holstein> knome: i should say, im trying to do this from debian... ./test-slideshow.sh: 24: Syntax error: "(" unexpected
<knome> that must be a debian error then
<holstein> let me see what i have in Vbox
<scott-work> holstein: lol, i'm listening to the latest OPSM episode and you talked about RPM and mentioned everyone doing it...but me :P
<scott-work> i know i said i'm probably not going to have time this year, but i said that after you and dan recorded ;)
<scott-work> knome: just to be clear (as i'm looking at the blueprint), you have NOT pushed the slideshow changes to the main branch yet (and presumable therefore no one has pushed the changes into the repos)?
<holstein> scott-work: :/
<holstein> sorry
<scott-work> hehe, it's okay, just thought it was funny :)
<scott-work> am i the guy that got people into the rpm challenge or where people already doing it there?
<holstein> knome: sorry... its beyong my skill to trouble shoot that right now
<knome> scott-work, no, it's not in the repos yet :)
<holstein> i get the same errors in presice
<knome> weird.
<holstein> and im *sure* its my own fault somehow
<knome> neb
<knome> err, wrong window
<knome> holstein, http://temp.knome.fi/ubuntustudio/slideshow/shots/
<scott-work> holstein: to run the test i actuall used a file manager and then right clicked the file and chose 'execute' for it to work
<knome> that *should* be the same as double-clicking :)
<knome> hmm.
<knome> holstein, do you have zenity installed?
<holstein> im sure i dont in debian
<knome> but in precise vbox
<holstein> i didnt check in precise, and i shutdown the VM
<knome> that might be the reason it's not working
<holstein> let me try firing it back up
<holstein> well, it does have zentity :/
<knome> then totally weird
<knome> look at the shots then
<knome> ;)
<holstein> knome: looking good!
<holstein> knome: thanks... i gotta run again... chec in later
<holstein> ill check in later**
<astraljava> scott-work: Hey, I've been way busy with my personal life issues for the past two weeks, so no progress on my tasks. I need to file an FFe for the ubiquity stuff (also for Xubuntu), but that shouldn't be a problem as they concern only those distinctive projects.
<astraljava> scott-work: We still haven't decided on the LTS plan. What are we going to support, and for how long?
<astraljava> scott-work: IMO this should be decided the latest this coming Sunday's meeting, and forwarded then to the Tech Board. But I'm not sure if I'm able to attend. Are you able to drive this matter?
<astraljava> scott-work: If not, I'd say it's safe to say that Studio won't have an LTS release this time.
<astraljava> Which isn't actually all that bad a choice anyway, as we don't have very strong understanding and experience on the Xfce basis, yet. But yeah, *shrug*. It's up to you, ultimately.
<astraljava> But yeah, I'll continue with my tasks when I have time, probably next week from Tuesday onwards.
<scott-work> astraljava: re: LTS - i actually meant to go ahead and send an email yesterday but work has been a bitch for a few weeks now and i forgot
<len> knome: Those three slides look good.
<len> The style will work just fine.
<knome> len, thanks :)
<knome> scott-work_, astraljava: fwiw, the xubuntu developers thought 3 years is a definite maximum for LTS, because it would take awfully lot of resources to support xfce any longer
<micahg> well, that's due to upstream Xfce (last stable) and Debian (1 yr last stable)
<knome> exactly :)
<scott-work_> knome: to be honest, we can't do much for xfce stuff most likely and would utilize your efforts
<scott-work_> so our efforts for LTS would be more aligned with ubuntu studio items
<scott-work_> at least that's how it sorts in my head, probably kinda fuzzy though
<knome> scott-work_, yeah, but you could be partly reassured that somebody's working on the xfce stuff
<knome> scott-work_, and also, maybe not even think the 5 year LTS cycle, since xfce is not going to be supported that long
<scott-work_> no, no...i saw your email about xubuntu doing 3yr TLS and i would planning on doing the same basically
<knome> yeah
<astraljava> scott-work_: knome: Even 3 years is a stretch, though, considering how good a commitment we've seen by our contributors (yes, me included).
<knome> :)
<astraljava> I don't have doubts regarding the Xfce parts, I'm worried about Studio-specific features.
<scott-work_> TheMuso: have you seen the comments in revu?  http://revu.ubuntuwire.com/p/linux-lowlatency
<scott-work_> TheMuso: also, it appears that in #ubuntu-release that apw agreed to review the kernel, at least according to infinity
<scott-work_> TheMuso: oops, not in #ubuntu-release, the apw<->infinity discussion was in #ubuntu-devel
<TheMuso> scott-work: Yes saw the comments, pulling the tree that Tim pointed to to have a look. I actually did try and do what infinity suggested, but couldn't get the package to build. Perhaps there is something in Tim's tree that fixes this, so waiting for that tree to clone now.
<TheMuso> To be clear, I couldn't get the source package to build.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2012-02-16
<ScottL> TheMuso, ack
<TheMuso> ScottL: Ah I see why it was failing to build properly using an orig tarball and a diff.gz... abogani used symlinks, and a .diff.gz cannot represent symlinks.
<TheMuso> ScottL: Ok a much improved low latency kernel now on revu.
<ScottL> TheMuso, outstanding!
<ScottL> i'll poke apw about it
<TheMuso> ScottL: Hold up. I am going to push my changes to a git repo so he can look that over if need be. Give me a sec and I'll give you the URL for it.
<ScottL> okay :)
<TheMuso> ScottL: Ok, I've pushed the current state of things to git://kernel.ubuntu.com/themuso/ubuntu-precise-lowlatency.git
<TheMuso> afk for a bit
<ScottL> digging into the theme not settings, the lightdm not settings, and the xsession not settings thanks to len 's notes
<scott-work> i'm not sure what to do, i have ping apw (kernel UKT guy) several times about the lowlatency kernel, in particular to ask about an ETA for his check, and i've gotten no response
<scott-work> i really don't want to be dorky about this and make him mad by continuous pinging though
<scott-work> that is NOT a bridge i would like to burn
<holstein> yeah... whats the timeline though?
<scott-work> i believe today is the feature freeze (although i could check that fact), which has been infered as the date we would need to get this done
<scott-work> of course, we could also file a FFe
<holstein> extension?
<scott-work> tgardner says he will look at it though now :)
<ailo> Feature freeze should be today within a few hours
<ailo> Great work scott-work 
<scott-work> ailo: thank you, but i really didn't do any _real_ work...basically it was been abogani and TheMuso 
<ailo> scott-work: Absolutely, but you will have done your bit to help get the kernel into the repo, which is where we need it.
<scott-work> agreed
<TheMuso> scott-work: Anybody uploaded the kernel to precise yet?
<TheMuso> scott-work: I only ask because Tim gave his ok on revu.
<ailo> scott-work_: ping
<scott-work_> TheMuso: ailo:  sorry, been away doing stuff
<scott-work_> TheMuso: i am not aware that anyone has uploaded it
<scott-work_> TheMuso: would you like me to query a specific channel about the potential upload?
<scott-work_> ailo: thank you for pinging me again
<TheMuso> scott-work_: No, I don't think it would have been uploaded yet, so I will do it, and we will see how things go. I am confident it should be ok given Tim's review.
<scott-work_> TheMuso: outstanding!
<TheMuso> scott-work_: We only then need to get a meta package into the archive, but that shouldn't be difficult.
<scott-work_> quite an exciting milestone for us
<TheMuso> Indeed.
 * TheMuso goes to push the button.
<scott-work_> TheMuso: and update our seeds to include the kernel as well :)
 * ailo stands ready with the champagne
<micahg> TheMuso: you still need a second MOTU to review it
<holstein> w00t!
<TheMuso> micahg: Tim is a core-dev?
<micahg> oh?
<TheMuso> He didn't actually advocate on revu, but gave it a +1.
<TheMuso> in comments.
 * TheMuso checks to be sure.
<micahg> yeah, he is
<micahg> phew, saves me from doing it :)
<TheMuso> Ok, will go ahead then.
<TheMuso> abogani: Please pull from git://kernel.ubuntu.com/themuso/ubuntu-precise-lowlatency.git when you get a chance, there are some packaging changes in there that will be going into the upload to precise, and your tree is still the given tree in the Vcs-Git field.
<TheMuso> abogani: Tim basically redid your tree, removed the quilt patch and made it a git commit. I also removed the symbolic links, as they prevented the package from being built with the upstream kernel.org tarball.
<TheMuso> scott-work_: Longer term, I think we need to move the tree to somewhere where all three of us can colaborate on it.
<TheMuso> scott-work_: I'm happy to do the packaging legwork if you guys maintain it.
<scott-work_> TheMuso: do you mean in bzr or in a git repository?  in the blueprint there was discussion about using git so we can easily rebase on kernel changes i believe
<TheMuso> scott-work_: Yes git. You don't want to use bzr, and git means that you get all the commit history from the kernel team, and the upstrea kernel.
<TheMuso> scott-work_: I was thinking we set up a team on gitorious or some such.
<TheMuso> And, the kernel goes up with 20 minutes to spare. :p
<scott-work_> lol
<TheMuso> And the kernel is uploaded.
<scott-work_> YAY!
<scott-work_> thank you very much TheMuso and abogani for your work on this, it certainly would not have been possible without you!  :-D
<scott-work_> i need to update the blueprint as well :)
<TheMuso> Cool.
<TheMuso> That reminds me...
<len> SO I take it the new kernel will show in tomorrows ISO?
<scott-work_> len: not until we update the seeds and then update the metas
<scott-work_> so this might be a week or so
<scott-work_> BUT i can update the seeds for audacity and mudita during the same time
<TheMuso> Not even then. It has to be approved in the new queue.
<scott-work_> len: and thank you for your email for the lightdm stuff, i'm going to respond with details and i'm making the changes
<TheMuso> We also need to upload the linux-lowlatency-meta package which abogani has in git, but that shouldn't be a problem getting in.
<len> I am also looking at the jackd package. I am thinking we should be able to put a config file in the settings package that sets real time for jackd.
<len> Actually it would tell the jack package we answered yes.
<len> scott-work: I will email what I think would work.
<len> The other area that needs looking at theme wise is the second panel.
<len> It has a number of selections for programs that we don't ship. I can edit that file too to at least remove the stuff we don't have.
<len> Personally, I would remove the second panel, but then I have a small screen.
<len> scott-work_  ^^
<scott-work_> len: aye, as you noted previously, there are menu items that don't work as well (as with the panel)
<scott-work_> i was choosing not to address this quite yet until we get a working live-dvd, ubiquity working, yadda, yadda
<scott-work_> but also because i wanted to address the menu structure at the same time as these items, even though we will be touching the default-settings package again
<holstein> wow!... thanks *so* much ScottL & TheMuso & micahg ...we have a kernel for RT!
<TheMuso> Low latency anyway.
<holstein> yup... it should work
<holstein> our crack testing team indicates :)
<ailo> It works with flying colors!
<ailo> Every distro should have one!
<ailo> Even better would be if the generic kernel was scalable somehow that you didn't need -lowlatency
<holstein> i think we are close
<holstein> i bet 14.04 doent need it
<ailo> holstein: Don't bet on it
<ailo> I mean, the code is already there
<ailo> I don't know who controls whether a vanilla linux would be better or worse for realtime
<ailo> But, as long as there is no interest for that to happen, it might only happen by chance
<ailo> And in that case, it might work well for one linux version for example, but the next one not
<holstein> we'll see
<holstein> as long as we have our lowlatency one :)
<ailo> It's not in anyway a natural direction for kernel development AFAIK
<ailo> It might be. I'm just guessing
<ailo> -lowlatency is pure gold
#ubuntustudio-devel 2012-02-17
<Len-1204> ailo: do you happen to know what order the install process looks at the packages?
<ailo> Len-1204: No idea. I really don't have much of a clue about the whole install process as a whole
<Len-1204> It is kind of a black box.
<ailo> Len-1204: I'm sure Debian has documentation on it, and then there's additional Ubuntu way of doing things
<Len-1204> I have figured out how to get jackd rt, but it needs to run after jackd's config.
<ailo> Len-1204: As a part of the package itself, or something else?
<Len-1204> I don't want to touch jackd, but we could do it as part of our settings package.
<Len-1204> we would save the true value where the jackd package expects to find it.
<ailo> I'm wondering if there is a force yes parameter that can be used for installing jackd
<ailo> Again, no idea about how it works. Suspecting that there is a file which is read and applied
<ailo> Seeds?
<Len-1204> I haven't seen any way of giving parameters except what they use.
<Len-1204> There is a command to set instead of use the input. But we need to do that after jackd's config has tried to get an answer.
<Len-1204> Otherwise jackd might over write it.
<Len-1204> They use the db-config package.
<Len-1204> It is built for these kinds of things.
<Len-1204> ailo: if the packages are opened in the order the files are in the directory, it should be fine.
<Len-1204> but if it uses the order of the seeds, then not.
<ailo> Len-1204: Whatever way works. It's only for the DVD install procedure after all
<Len-1204> we could always put a audio-settings package in too.
<micahg> holstein: I really didn't do much for it
<ScottL> len-nb, we can get the -rt setting to work
<ScottL> for jack
<ScottL> len-nb, cjwatson has said that preseeding should be able to answer this question correctly
<len-nb> Ok
<ScottL> but it looked like ubiquity was ordering the preseeding after the installation :P
<ScottL> we filed a bug on it i believe
<ScottL> after we get a few things done with lightdm and such and our image boots and installs like it should (more or less)
<len-nb> He may know more about db_config than I do.
<ScottL> i was going to poke cjwatson about this (ubiquity and the preseeding) again
<ScottL> len-nb, heh, cjwatson know many a thing, arcane and otherwise ;)
<ScottL> but seriously he felt very confident it should work and will work, we just probably just need to poke him again later on
<ScottL> i hope to push the lightdm fixes this week so we can get the install from hanging and fix a few other issues
<len-nb> I tried reading the docs on it... and what jack does and that was what I figured
<abogani> TheMuso: Your changes:
<abogani> 1) Add a huge burden on maintenance without any pro (symlinks are made to make maintance at zero cost)
<abogani> 2) they requires to upload (aka dput-ing) the complete source code (i.e. ~500 MB  vs ~2 MB)
<abogani> 3) It seems that you don't want place that package in Universe (Field "Section" in control file)
<abogani> 4) It seems that you don't make d-i modules for this package ("disable_d_i = true" in rules.d/*.mk).
<micahg> abogani: adding universe to section is unnecessary, that's set at the archive level
<abogani> But should it be better if it would be explicit? 
<abogani> contributor could know nothing about archive level...
<micahg> no
<micahg> it shouldn't matter for contributors what component something is in
<abogani> If it is really matters Section field simply doesn't exist.
<abogani> s/matters/doesn't matter
<scott-work> micahg: i hope to have some fixes uploaded this evening to fix a few bugs, will you be able to help me upload them?
<micahg> scott-work: over the weekend, sure
<scott-work> micahg: thank you
<scott-work> i have a question though
<scott-work> well, two qustions, at least
<scott-work> are we going to need a FFe for the lowlatency kernel?
<scott-work> debian has supposedly made a change to mudita24 to add the .desktop file (i have not verified this), will we need a FFe or a sync request for this?
<micahg> no, low latency kernel is uploaded
<micahg> no, a .desktop file isn't a feature
<micahg> jst requestsync should be fine
<scott-work> just so the channel knows, i'm hoping to fix the lightdm issue this weekend and perhaps the "ubiquity hangs" bug as well
<scott-work> i'm guessing the lightdm issue is affecting ubiquity as well, because i realized i had done a few things incorrectly when i parsed the xubuntu packages into ours
<scott-work> but then i would really like to focus on getting RT permissions to work, both in the live environment and installed
<scott-work> and get the pulseaudio<->jack bridge working
<scott-work> after those two would be the ubiquity plugin that astraljava was working on
<scott-work>  
<scott-work> this weekend i hope to accomplish getting the lightdm/default-settings packages updated (need to test build/install), file the LTS application, and file a syncrequest for gettin the mudita24.desktop file issue resolved
<astraljava> scott-work: Yeah, sorry I haven't had time for that, but I should from Tuesday onwards.
<scott-work> astraljava: no problems, i'll get it probably tomorrow :)
<scott-work> heading home
#ubuntustudio-devel 2012-02-19
<scott-upstairs> anyone here for the meeting?
<holstein> in 2 hours?
<holstein> is that right?
<scott-upstairs> eh, i thought it was now, okay, i'll come back then :)
<holstein> scott-upstairs: i never do the conversion properly... lemme look
<ailo> It might have been now. 
<ailo> Well, maybe not. I don't remember
<holstein> ive got it in 30 minutes scott-upstairs ailo 
<ailo>  I'm not of much help, but I can attend the meeting anyhow
<holstein> i think i can
<ScottL> holstein, i think you are right, the wiki shows 17:00 UTC
<ScottL> which is now 20 mins away for me
<ailo> I've done some midi editing a couple of days, using Ardour3 and qtractor
<ailo> It's a headache to say the least
<ailo> It's almost impossible to get finished with anything more advanced than 4/4 in the same tempo
<ailo> All sorts of bugs
<ailo> Thinking about trying rosegarden next
<ailo> Ardour3 got borked almost right away for me. When I entered midi notes, they would appear a few bars ahead
<ailo> Now, my qtractor project has something corrupted that makes it impossible to edit a midi file, or it freezes
<ailo> Still just trying to finish one track
<ailo> What I'm doing is I'm making a drum track using Hydrogen as an instrument, so I can record some guitars and have something resembling a beat to play along with
<ailo> A way to get a feel for the arrangement as well
<ailo> Wow, 914 MB just to install rosegarden on this Debian install :P
<ailo> I'm pretty happy with rakarrak. 
<ailo> Only thing missing is a good drum sample library. Gotta get one together soon (well, maybe not a good one, but a real one)
<ailo> Aside from rosegarden, I guess there's still MusE
<astraljava> Are we going to have a meeting? My connection sucks, so don't hold be responsible for chairing, please.
<astraljava> be == me
<ailo> astraljava: Sounds like you have a cold. Have some lemon bee
<astraljava> Hehe. :D
<ailo> ScottL: holstein astraljava len Is it time?
<astraljava> It would be.
<astraljava> Already six minutes past.
<holstein> yeah
<holstein> you want to do something informal in here instead?
<holstein> just a little shout of report kind of thing?
<holstein> knome: are you around?
<holstein> cfhowlett: o/
<len> Im here
<cfhowlett> morning/evening/afternoon all
<len> ailo: try rosegarden with no docs.
<ailo> len: You mean that makes the installation smaller? It pulled in a lot of other stuff too I guess. Since I'm getting my hands dirty with midi editing now, it's a perfect opportunity to see which sequencer actually holds water
<ailo> So far I'm not too happy with either qtractor or Ardour3
<ailo> I'm not able to finish a project with those two
<len> ardour3 still doesn't seem to put out toc files either.
<len> I am thinking it tries to do too much
<len> have you tried lmms?
<ailo> For audio recording, Ardour3 is great. But for midi, well, it's still so new
<ailo> I haven't for a long time
<ailo> What I need is to be able to do advanced midi editing
<len> When I downloaded rose the docs were 600m
<ailo> Really? Wow
<len> That may also be the reason pure data comes docless.
<ailo> len: It doesn't come without docs
<len> Well then there may be a bug ,because I couldn't find any docs.
<ailo> len: They are in the form of patches. You can find them using the help browser
<ailo> Or, in /usr/lib/pd/doc/*
<len> Or at least when I went to the help menu on the title bar and selected docs it came up empty.
<ailo> len: There's no docs item in the help menu, but there is "browser"
<len> Still nothing there though in the iso I checked.
<ailo> I don't get what you mean, since pd always comes with those docs
<len> Yes the docs are there in /usr/lib/pd/doc/
<len> but when I tried to access them from pd I wasn't able to. I will try again when next I am up with US1204
<len> Maybe I did something wrong.
<ailo> len: There could be a bug with that version of pd, not sure. I seem to remember something like that
<len> is there a meeting?
<ailo> It's here if we're going to have one
<len> Ok. I have to go soon. The only comment I have... is that it would be nice to see more small changes happening as they are needed.
<astraljava> Yeah, let's wait for Scott, cause we would have to make some decisions, and we can't make them without the leader.
<len> It would be better for testing if we knew about problems earlier than later
<astraljava> len: ACK. Things have been rather crazy lately, for me, and apparently for Scott as well.
<ScottL> sorry got wrapped up in family stuff
<len> Is it hard to drop things into the iso? Just the seeds or metas too?
<len> From my know next to nothing view it seems like it would be "simple" to make any one change.
<ScottL> len, i've been making changes
<ScottL> i've updated the lightdm theme and the default-settings package to address some of the things we already acknowledged
<ScottL> i would like to get micahg  to upload these today or tomorrow after i test them on my precise-test machine (i've already built theme)
<len> Good, So I should see that soon then.
<ScottL> there will probably be some issues with either the theme name and icon theme name
<ScottL> some things got changed (not by me) and i'm not sure how they will react
<len> One of the problems with adding a package after install, is that the user already has settings installed.
<len> It would be better to replace the package on the usb iso  and reinstall.
<len> At the least you need to create a new user.
<ScottL> len, when the package is tested that it installs then it will be uploaded to the repositoriy and then included in the iso after the next build (whenver it is)
<ScottL> again, hopefully this is done this today/tomorrow
<len> Ah, you just want to see if it installs. Thats diferent.
<ScottL> my goal is to address groups of issue on a weekly basis
<ScottL> len, yes....test build and install
<ScottL> then validate if it does what it is suppose to fix
<len> Theme changes will be seen best by creating new user.
<ScottL> once the iso installs without hanging up or dumping us to terminal or whatever i want to tackle the jack rt issue and pulseaudio<->jack bridging
<len> lightdm changes should show ok on their own.
<ScottL> on the former, cjwatson has maintained that the preseeding should work but ubiquity is running the preseeding _after_ the installation
<len> jack-pa bridging looks like setup changes.
<ScottL> the later, i will talk directly to david h. (who seems to be the expert or most interest and is an audio core-dev guy) about how it should work and then compare our setup
<len> If preseeding is after the install then a mv command should work fine.
<ScottL> len, right, but it should install correctly with preseeding, it does it correctly on other variants i believe
<ScottL> but i want to make sure the iso installs as properly as possible before i poke cjwatson further
<len> jack-pa the problem is that PA still tries to send audio directly to alsa which is blocked by jack
<ScottL> len, there has been quite a bit of work with d-bus to make things play better, i still suggest that something might have changed which unwittingly is making things not work well with jack
<ailo> I suppose the jack PA bridge is entirely Ubuntu and not Ubuntu Studio? and that those guys are working on it?
<ScottL> len, aye, other people are working on pulse audio, but david h. should be able to suss it out for us
<len> I got one reply on the bug asking for a log file. nothing since
<len> That may help. as from my view it can be either a PA bug or a US setup problem.
<ScottL> one issue for the group, does anyone object to making a LTS application to the technical board?  it would be for three years and a best effort commitment
<ScottL> len, david h. is very fluent in both pulse audio and jack and will be able to help us, i spoke with him at the last UDS about this issue
<len> It depends on PA's ideas as to what is right or the right way of doing things.
<ScottL> so this coming week i hope to focus on jack rt and pulseaudio<->jack
<cfhowlett> I only do LTS releases, so if 12.04 will be ready, I wholeheartedly support the LTS application.
<len> I think the question is not support so much as " have we reached our goals for this version?"
<ScottL> the following week i would like focus on the ubiqutiy plugin that astraljava worked up
<len> That is: is the switch to xfce complete.
<ScottL> len, i would posit that the goals for any version are never reached until practically at the last of the cycle
<ScottL> the question i think we should ask, do we want to support a particular release over a given period for our users
<ScottL> i prefer to run the LTS version until certain apps (e.g. ardour) can't be updated
<len> I understand that, to rephrase: does it look like the switch to xfce will be complete? if it does then this would be a good time to call it LTS
<ScottL> i'm not sure i would want that as a qualifier at this point, we can always keep updated the packages, even after release, to fix issues
<len> ok.
<ScottL> therefore, if something in xfce isn't where we want it, the use can install and then upgrade the package
<len> Doesn't that happen pertty much on it's own?
<ScottL> sometimes
<ScottL> but perhaps we have a wrong config file and that is _our_ implementation problem
<ScottL> not xfce's or ubuntu's or canonical's or even xubuntu's, most likely
<ScottL> for example, i just realized two/three days again i had a config file in the wrong directory for lightdm
<ScottL> this is probably causes some of our problems and it was a stupid mistake on my part
<ScottL> but it's OUR problem, not anyone else's
<len> It's why we do testing.
<ScottL> aye :)
<ScottL> and you have been a HUGE help in that department!
<ScottL> and all your efforts and comments have been MOST appreciated
<len> We expect mistakes... no mistakes means no movement.
<len> Anyway, I'm ok with LTS if my vote has any meaning.
<len> Anything about menus?
<cfhowlett> If it's LTS worthy and ready, then yes.  Please.
<astraljava> len: Of course your vote has meaning, they're all equal.
<ScottL> len, yes, we value your vote
<ScottL> len, as to menus, we'll see when this happens, like some of the smaller issues
<ScottL> they might happen in march (or on the cusp) unfortunately
<ScottL> again, i think some discussion needs to happen before we make changes
<ScottL> len, do you still have your menu currently changed?
<len> Ok, I have a gig gotta go. I have been working on menu files. I'll post them on the list for feed back.
<ScottL> we might use your screenshots to further the discussion
<ScottL> good luck at the gig
<len> Can I get screen shots of menus? everytime I have a menu open I can't seem to do anything else.
<ScottL> len, you can do a timed schreenshot from the menu
<ScottL> accessories -> screenshot
<ScottL> and choose a 5 sec delay or something like that
<ScottL> then open the menu and wait
<len> Ah! ok gotta go. Bye all
<ailo> rosegarden crashed. That's how I remember it. Sudden crashes. MusE seems to be really easy to work with concerning midi, but why the hell does it install Swedish, when I have English as my system language!
<astraljava> ScottL: What is our stance on the LTS question? Same as Xubuntu?
<ScottL> astraljava, yes, i was going to propose the same
<astraljava> Sounds good.
<astraljava> ScottL: What features are we going to be driving before Beta-1? I should get the ubiquity plugins ready during Tuesday. But what else?
<astraljava> ailo: That Muse behaviour seems really interesting. Would you be willing to debug it with me, let's say, on Wednesday or after that?
<ScottL> astraljava, i was really hoping to get the lightdm updates pushed and verified before moving on to ubiquity plugin
<ScottL> astraljava, but that was because i just wanted to keep things modular and simple
<ScottL> astraljava, it doesn't have to be that way however
<ScottL> kinda to focus on a single problem, prepare fix, verify fix, and mark it off the list
<astraljava> ScottL: Sure, I understand that.
<ailo> astraljava: Well, I believe the program has a bug which makes it choose the language file from some other criteria than the system language. I deleted the non English locales from /usr/share/muse/locale/* which solved my problem
<ailo> I've posted on their forum on Sourceforge
<ailo> Just found their bug tracker, so I will put a note there as well
<ailo> I love working with the midi editor. Let's see if I can get more stable performance (no missing beats and buggy editing)
<astraljava> ailo: Ok.
<ScottL> hi shnatsel 
<shnatsel> hi ScottL 
<astraljava> ScottL: So, are you available on Tuesday, so we can go over the changes I've made?
<shnatsel> aaarg looks like all the time I spent on lp:ubuntu-cdimage is wasted
<shnatsel> it wants one and only one repo with all needed packages, and there seems to be no sane way to merge repos
<shnatsel> well, I hope the seeds docs were useful to you at least
<ScottL> astraljava, i will make myself available :)
<ScottL> shnatsel, i'm sorry to hear that :/
<ScottL> they were useful, however
<shnatsel> not wasted then
<astraljava> shnatsel: You should talk to LP devs, maybe there is a way after all.
<astraljava> ScottL: Ok, cool.
<shnatsel> astraljava: it's not about lp, it's about ubuntu ISO builds
<shnatsel> astraljava: well, there is a way. I've found one.
<astraljava> shnatsel: But what repos are you mentioning, then?
<shnatsel> astraljava: I need to merge ubuntu archive with several PPAs
<shnatsel> astraljava: well, I don't anymore.
<astraljava> shnatsel: That's what I meant. All the repos are under LP umbrella. They might know the way.
<shnatsel> astraljava: screwed it and rewriting in-house build system again.
<astraljava> shnatsel: Ok.
<shnatsel> astraljava: ah, thanks!
<ScottL> micahg, ping
<micahg> pong
<ScottL> wow, hehe, thought it would be a bit :P
<ScottL> i'm almost ready
<ScottL> with fixes to -default-settings and -lightdm-theme
<ScottL> testing once more after ppa rebuilds (which should be quick as there really isn't a "binary")
<ScottL> micahg, do you have experience with icons theme and theme names?
<ScottL> either way i would expect to have the bzr changes pushed in about a hour (i need to run to store with kids first)
<ScottL> micahg, if i have a single bug for which i have several lines in the changefile, can i do the following:
<ScottL>   [bug #000000]
<ubottu> Error: Launchpad bug 0 could not be found
<ScottL>    
<ScottL>    * fixed this
<ScottL>   * fixed that
<ScottL> etc?
<micahg> well, would be LP: #XXXXXX, but yeah
<knome> here i am
<ScottL> hehe, yeah, thank you micahg, just tidying up changelog and seeing if i need another bug report
<ScottL> hi knome 
<knome> hey!
<knome> what's up?
<ScottL> just working on the -default-settings and -lightdm-theme packages so the iso should boot without problems finally
<knome> right
<knome> good luck with that
<ScottL> i'm feeling good about what i got
<knome> what about the cards?
<ScottL> knome, also, astraljava and i should be testing the ubiquity plugin on tuesday as well
<knome> oo, shiny
<knome> http://status.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-precise/group/topic-precise-flavor-xubuntu.html
<knome> cabin crew prepare for landing!
<ScottL> knome, hmmm, cards...i still have about three things to do tonight and a meeting at work on tuesday for which i REALLY need to prepare, so let's say wednesday i will make changes
<knome> changes? :)
<ScottL> alsdllkfjlaklkaslkdflk
<ScottL> sorry, was thinking slideshow
<ScottL> hehehe, my bad
<knome> hehe, that's fine :D
<knome> changes with cards are fine too...
<knome> just want to know you'll get them safely to your printer - assuming you will send them to one :)
<ScottL> i'd actually like to wait until later for the slideshow if possible actually 
<ScottL> knome, yes, i would like to send them to a printer and i do not have any changes :)
<knome> no problem, i can upload what we got now to the main branch
<knome> or do you want me to hold that too?
<ScottL> knome, that is a good idea, at least we have something and we can change it as well
<knome> okay, great
<knome> i'll do that tonight
<ScottL> s/well/will
<ScottL> thank you again knome, without you and shimmer/xubuntu we would have not gotten many things done
<knome> np, happy to help
<ScottL> i wish i knew more and could do more to help you
<ScottL> but i'm learning a lot (which i really enjoy doing)
<knome> nah, this is fine
<knome> i've made a merge proposal
<knome> added dylan mccall as the reviewer, since he knows the internal stuff
<knome> and that would be https://code.launchpad.net/~ubuntustudio-dev/ubiquity-slideshow-ubuntu/precise/+merge/93750
<astraljava> knome: Yeah, I intend to finish both ubiquity plugins on Tuesday, I'll be home tomorrow evening.
<knome> astraljava, nice :)
<knome> astraljava, how are you, btw?
<astraljava> I'm okay, really tired, but happy that the trip is almost over. Both interviews went fine, so at least that should be good news. I didn't really enjoy the expo that much, but the greek friend is always a blast to see. As were you guys. :)
<knome> hehe. great to hear. and thanks :)
<knome> you're always welcome again
<astraljava> Cheers, I intend to. :)
<knome> great!
<knome> we might even be able to organize an nhl-night with 3 other guys, if you're interested
<astraljava> Of course I am! :)
<astraljava> But I think I need to practice first. :)
<astraljava> knome: Are you using chrome or ff?
<astraljava> It seems chrome leaks memory like crazy now. I had to go back to ff.
<scott-upstairs> micahg, ubuntustudio-lightdm-theme version 3:  https://code.launchpad.net/~ubuntustudio-dev/ubuntustudio/ubuntustudio-lightdm-theme
<scott-upstairs> micahg, ubuntustudio-default-settings version 93:  https://code.launchpad.net/~ubuntustudio-dev/ubuntustudio-default-settings/UbuntuStudio
<scott-upstairs> micahg, hold on a second!  i realized i forgot to remove something from default-settings
<scott-upstairs> micahg, default settings but version 94
<scott-upstairs> i had realized that both the default-settings and lightdm packages were both doing the same thing in the pre/post inst/rm files
<scott-upstairs> which was setting up the lightdm theme, so i moved it to lightdm where i think it should be then
<knome> astraljava, ff
<knome> nighty
<len-nb> ScottL scott-upstairs (and anyone else who cares to look) http://www.ovenwerks.net/UStudiodocs/menu.html  has what I have done so far in redoing menus.
<len-nb> Comments?
#ubuntustudio-devel 2013-02-11
<smartboyhw> hey stochastic 
<stochastic> hey smartboyhw 
<stochastic> I see a bunch of re-organization took place lately
<stochastic> I was removed from a handful of groups, but didn't have time to dig in to understand why
<stochastic> what exactly went down?
<smartboyhw> stochastic, ask zequence :P
<smartboyhw> He's the vice project lead now :P
<stochastic> okay
<stochastic> zequence, ?
<zequence> stochastic: Didn't you get a message in your mail about that?
<zequence> stochastic: We've reaorganized the launchpad teams. For practical reasons. Privileges, blueprints and bug subscriptions per team
<zequence> stochastic: ubuntustudio-dev has been removed from some groups, but I don't think you were removed from any?
<stochastic> zequence, do you have a document I can overview of these changes or the subject of the best e-mail to read on the subject?
<zequence> stochastic: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/TeamStructure
<zequence> I'm reworking the wiki too.
<zequence> Writing dev docs for all the tams
<zequence> teams*
<stochastic> okay
<stochastic> sounds good, I just get concerned when I see messages like "stochastic deactivated from X" without prior knowledge (maybe I missed the prior memo)
<zequence> :). I guess I should have made an announcement, but I did message everyone who were directly being moved between groups. I haven't removed anyone directly from any group. Only moved a couple of our active members from one group to another, retaining the purpose of the membership
<zequence> I will make an announcement once it's all done though
<zequence> Perhaps deactivating ubuntustudio-dev from some groupts caused those messages to show?
<zequence> It was a member of many groups. We've now made ubuntustudio-core the manager of the launchpad teams, and ubuntustudio-dev is just for development. Owns branches
<stochastic> yeah, in review of the changes you've made all the message make sense now
<stochastic> web-team is deleted thus there were a few deactivation messages, also dev group general messages of deactivation, there were about five in a row of similar nature.  Just all housekeeping stuff :)
<stochastic> next time it'd be great to e-mail out to the two lists (users & dev) directly before or after any major launchpad reorg just to briefly explain what's happening
<stochastic> zequence, why was I deactivated from the website team?
<zequence> stochastic: -website team is now only for developing the website. It seems I moved you to the PR team, which has editor rights on the main site, so full control of content
<zequence> I think I messaged you about that
 * stochastic looks for that message
<zequence> Should be in the same message where you are shown to be deactivated from -website
<zequence> I should be asking you if this was a correct move, or not
<zequence> ..in the message
<stochastic> oh
<stochastic> I'd still like to retain website development work if that's okay
<stochastic> I know I've been quite inactive as of late, but have been very involved with that in the past
<zequence> stochastic: Done
<stochastic> zequence, thank you
<zequence> That team owns the website theme code, and gets messages of changes to the -website blueprint
<stochastic> yes, makes sense
<stochastic> I think that clears everything up.  Thanks for taking this re-org on zequence I know scott was wanting to clean up our launchpad presence for a long time now
<zequence> stochastic: Thanks. I've been working with Scott on this, all though he has had less time than me to work out the details
<zequence> One reason for the change is to make it easier for new contributors to get connected to information. 
<zequence> And I really want to start hunting for contributors, as soon as the Wiki is in better shape too.
<scott-work> this guy has an interesting icon for music made with linux: http://audio-and-linux.blogspot.com/2013/02/music-made-with-linux.html
<scott-work> i wonder if there is a "standard" icon for this
<SzArAk> scott-work: nice entry and some real interesting music out there
<zequence> scott-work: If not, maybe we should lobby for one
<zequence> Or, one could discuss this on LAU
<zequence> scott-work: We should post about projects made using Linux Audio too
<zequence> Something to add for the PR team
<zequence> scott-work: btw, I was playing around with a format for the header https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/TeamStructure
<zequence> scott-work: I'm thinking we should have one for wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio, and the same design, but with perhaps another color and also another content for help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuStudio
<zequence> We should profile one to be for development, and the other for users, but keep a close tie, so that it's easy to orientate. One should really find everything else from anywhere, whether one is at the website or one of the wikis
<zequence> Particularly having different sets of colors makes it easy to see the difference
<zequence> I'm planning to make navigation easy also for all the pages that become the backbone for docs, both dev and user
<zequence> By either using another form of the header, or use trails back to the root
<scott-work> zequence: definitely i think we should post about some of this stuff
<scott-work> zequence: i like the look of the header
<scott-work> one thing i've thought about is that perhaps some open teams should have a time limit on members
<scott-work> for example, i'm okay with ~ubuntustudio being open and no time limits, there really isn't an responsibility for that team
<scott-work> however for -testing, i would like to have a mechanism that automatically drops people who aren't active anymore or willing to reply to the 'renew membership' email
<zequence> scott-work: Sure, we could add a time limit to that sort of teams. -documentation and -contributors are similar
<zequence> ..as they are open
<zequence> I guess there's no reason to add that to moderated teams
<zequence> Few members, and we know them all, pretty much
<zequence> Or, you think we should add that to moderated teams as well?
<zequence> It's not a big deal to renew ones membership every once a year, or whatever period one chooses
<zequence> I saw that Xubuntu had different icons for teams, depending on how restricted they are. I was thinking of doing that for us too. I was using another form of the logo for some teams before
<zequence> No, forget I said anything about the moderated teams. 
<zequence> scott-work: So, for the open teams, except for ~ubuntustudio, and ~ubuntustudio-bugs(which is more of a bug subscription team), what time period do you like? I'm thinking one year is not too short anyway
<scott-work_> zequence: that sounds good. i just worry about these teams where anyone can join but we don't get any benefit from them even though a bazillion people are on the team
<scott-work_> (and webchat dropped me again :(  )
<zequence> scott-work_: Yeah. Ok, I'll set that up then
<zequence> I'm making the subscription period 365 days, and the self renewal period 30 days. But, this only affects new members. The existing ones keep their settings
<zequence> -testing had 3000 days
<zequence> I could change that, but would need to do that for each user.
<zequence> I could do that, and send a message about the change, so no one is surprised by the change
<ttoine> zequence, I was this week-end at azarecord
<ttoine> I followed the record of 9 track of a jazz band on the workstation I builded for them
<ttoine> now, I am waiting for the mix and master, so I can let you listen
<zequence>  ttoine Great
<zequence> ttoine: You should post about that too
<ttoine> zequence, yep, I think I will do a case study about azarecord, and translate it in english
<ttoine> and wednesday, I interview Stephange Letz
<ttoine> stephane
<ttoine> the mastering session is scheduled at the end on february
#ubuntustudio-devel 2013-02-12
<smartboyhw> !support
<ubottu> The official ubuntu support channel is #ubuntu. Also see http://ubuntu.com/support and http://ubuntuforums.org and http://askubuntu.com
<smartboyhw> Let me switch that to our own channel:P
<smartboyhw> !support-#ubuntustudio-devel is <reply> This is the Ubuntu Studio development channel. Our official support channel is on #ubuntustudio. Also see http://ubuntuforums.org/forumdisplay.php?f=335
<zequence> smartboyhw: Is Ho your lastname. Which is your first name?
<smartboyhw> zequence, why?
<zequence> smartboyhw: I just thought it might be nice to know your name. I know traditionally Chinese always put their last name first, but since I'm not used to the names, it's hard for me to tell which is which. 
<zequence> I know it's common also to keep a western name, but if I know your actual name, I'd rather use that
<zequence> I've updated the header. Now, both https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuStudio and https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/ have the same style of headers
<smartboyhw> My real name is Chan Ho Wan. Chan is my surname, Ho Wan is my first name. But then my English name is Howard, and I'd prefer using Howard Chan.
<zequence> Chan is not the same as Zhang and Chang, then?
<zequence> If you prefer Howard, the that is what I will use :)
<zequence> I just need to make it clearer which wiki one is on. It's a little hard to tell right now :P
<zequence> Also, I need to put it on many of our important pages
<IdleOne> !support | smartboyhw 
<ubottu> smartboyhw: This is the Ubuntu Studio development channel. Our official support channel is on #ubuntustudio. Also see http://ubuntuforums.org/forumdisplay.php?f=335
<IdleOne> :)
<len-1304> hyperthreading is bad for lowlatency, didn't know that.
<len-1304> The Linux console is bad for it too.
<smartboyhw> zequence, yes
<smartboyhw> Good one there
<zequence> len-1304: What is Linux console?
<len-1304> ctl-alt-F1 to 6
<smartboyhw> zequence, nice headers for the wiki/
<len-1304> Apparently, it uses kprint to write test to screen, which can take too much time if the text is long.
<len-1304> zequence, have you looked at the "nosoftlockup intel_idle.max_cstate=0 mce=ignore_ce kernel options?
<zequence> len-1304: How is Linux Console bad for lowlatency?
<zequence> len-1304: I haven't looked at the config, no. 
<len-1304> I guess the consloe output of text to screen is atomic
<len-1304> *console
<zequence> len-1304: You mean, if actively using the linux console, that is bad for lowlatency?
<len-1304> The recomendation is to use ssh instead.
<len-1304> Yes, also if the console logging was left on that is bad too.
<len-1304> I think we have it set to quiet at boot, Good.
<zequence> len-1304: The nosoftlockup is a kernel parameter than, which can be set as a Grub boot option? What is your source for this
<len-1304> http://h20000.www2.hp.com/bc/docs/support/SupportManual/c01804533/c01804533.pdf
<len-1304> All of the options I stated are boot options.
<len-1304> I started looking at SMI stuff, which was new to me.
<len-1304> I got started on this whole thing from:
<len-1304> http://manual.ardour.org/setting-up-your-system/the-right-computer-system-for-digital-audio/
<len-1304> I have also found that USB Keyboards and mice are bad for latency.
<len-1304> Apparently the stock exchange people are really picky about latency. They are probaly doing more realtime reseach than in audio.
<len-1304> (ALSA being one of the extra services they turn off)
<zequence> I've saved this stuff for later. I was actually just about to start doing some kernel testing, while I study here at school
<smartboyhw> zequence, the IT courses?
<zequence> smartboyhw: I'm studying for different certificates. Linux, Cisco, etc
<smartboyhw> zequence, add oil
<smartboyhw> Hey scott-work 
<scott-work> morning smartboyhw 
<zequence> I'm surrounded by Windows nerds at the school I go to
<zequence> A quote "you can't have all existing drivers distributed in a all-in-one package"
<zequence> "It would take too much room"
<zequence> space*
<zequence> These Windows guys just can't believe the idea that you just install an OS, and everything just works
<zequence> Made me wonder, how much of available linux drivers, that are legally possible to distribute, are not distributed with, say Ubuntu
<zequence> I'm kind of thinking less then 5%, but then, I don't know what "all" means
<zequence> Found this site, a database for drivers on Debian systems http://kmuto.jp/debian/hcl/
<zequence> ttoine: So, the interview is tomorrow, right?
<zequence> I've been putting too much time on header design. https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/Navigation/HeaderStaging
<ttoine> zequence, yes
<zequence> ttoine: I wrote down a couple questions more
<zequence> It's really hard. It does seem like Stephane has commited every change to jack2, I think all of them
<zequence> But, not his patches, all of them
<zequence> Seems like he's the administrator of the code, or something
<zequence> Just had a look at the git logs, and that shows a different story
<zequence> But, Stephane is still the guy who does the most commits
<zequence> It's late. Good luck with the interview tomorrow :)
#ubuntustudio-devel 2013-02-13
<len-1304> good morning
<smartboyhw> len-1304, good morning
<len-1304> I'm playing with bios settings and sound.
<smartboyhw> I'm getting heating up for my classroom session 12 hours later
<len-1304> Turning hyperthreading off seems to improve low latency work.
<smartboyhw> len-1304, oh does it?
<len-1304> Ya, the context switching in hyperthreading takes time I guess.
<len-1304> My machine might be slower over all, but I can run my audio card at 32 frames with just the odd xrun.
<len-1304> (one in 30 minutes)
<len-1304> Pulse doesn't like it :) But audacious still works through pulse and jack ok.
<len-1304> gtreamer, however, can't keep up.
<len-1304> But then, using pulse apps with jack doesn't need such low latency anyway. I just used it because it is a great stress test.
<zequence_> len-1304: Cool. That's it, I really gotta start workign on -controls soon
<zequence_> That stuff can be made switchable after al
<zequence_> Or one might even consider hard coding that into -lowlatency
<zequence> That would mean less processing power overall though, right?
<smartboyhw> Hey scott-work doing my ISO tests session now
<scott-work> smartboyhw: good morning and thank you :)
<smartboyhw> scott-work, for what?:P
<scott-work> for testing...and just being you ;)
<smartboyhw> scott-work, LOL
<zequence> scott-work: I redid the header again. What do you think? https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuStudio
<smartboyhw> zequence, nice!!!!!:D
<zequence> I'm thinking simple, simple now.
<scott-work> wow zequence that is really nice!
<scott-work> i also like how the images are links 
<scott-work> as well
<scott-work> and how the little bar (blue or orange) tells you where you are
<scott-work> that' really awesome :)
<zequence> Yeah, I thought that you need something to indicate your whereabouts, if you were to use the same design on both wikis
<zequence> The idea of "help" versus "wiki" is a little strange to me.
<smartboyhw> zequence, you should go and pursue a career in Art:P
<zequence> I guess help.community.wiki is mostly used for housing straight forward documentation. We've been using help. also as a wiki, while we haven't been using the wiki for both users and des
<zequence> devs*
<zequence> What I'm saying is the roles of help.ubuntu.com and wiki.ubuntu.com as far as Ubuntu Studio is concerned are a little unclear to me
<zequence> smartboyhw: I'm not an artist, but doing stuff for Ubuntu Studio, and not making it look good would feel a little shameful
<smartboyhw> zequence, :)
<zequence> I don't nessecarily feel there needs to be a strict line between user and dev, but the way it's organized now does put one pretty firmly. I'm a little pedantic with categorization and organization, to a point
<zequence> Simplicity is always good. And to achieve that, it's important not to do any unessecary categorization
 * smartboyhw suddenly thought zequence is a waste of not going into Human Resources
<zequence> While playing with the header, I felt one could already cram most of the important stuff there
<zequence> And that is what I like most about it
<zequence> The thing about this layout is that the line between the two wikis is more or less erased
<zequence> And you could just as well house everything in one place, if you wanted to
<zequence> It's just that "user" and "dev" happen to have pages on different wikis
<zequence> Some user stuff could just as well be in wiki.ubuntu.com
<zequence> That's just some thoughts I've had about it
<zequence> There are two factors that I think about doing this. 1) simplicity, easy orientation, and all important info is easy to find 2) Our wikis see very little community action, so we might as well organize more in the form of static documentation. This means we can design the wiki for the community, and not have the community design the wiki.
<zequence> Or, the wikis, as there are two
<zequence> Probably the only section that matters to individuals who want to contribute is a howto section, where they can add stuff.
<zequence> I mean, contribute in the sense of adding to the wiki
<zequence> The rest we should do for them
<zequence> Or, from within our organization, so to speak
<zequence> Because of the new header, the landing pages for both help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuStudio and wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio need to be redone from scratch. Most of the stuff on those pages are already in the header
<zequence> scott-work: Oh, that reminds me. Yesterday I was thinking about how to redo the wiki landing pages. And, I came to think about the mission statement
<zequence> scott-work: I think it would be a good time to think about that now :)
<zequence> scott-work: Do you have some ideas somewhere for it?
<Len-nb> zequence, lowlatency and performance are generally at odds with each other.
<scott-work> Len-nb: why do you say that?
<Len-nb> In low latency performance is given up for being able to determine a fixed latency.
<scott-work> zequence: i do have some ideas, rough ones. i have an important meeting and interview back-to-back starting in 1.5 hours, but this afternoon i would love go into more detail with you
<scott-work> Len-nb: oh, oh. i wouldn't say they are at odds then, just that you can't maximize performance
<zequence> scott-work: the insurance of making sure something arrives on time makes less come through. Throughput of -lowlatency is 10% less than on -generic
<zequence> And Len-nb suggested some more variables eariler
<zequence> That disabling hyperthreading would make low latency more reliable
<zequence> That would probably have a much bigger effect, than what already exists
<zequence> Interesting to find out how big
<Len-nb> Using the mouse to drag an object across the screen is bad :)
<Len-nb> But that is not some thing normally done while recording.
<Len-nb> gotta go
<zequence> Both hyper threading, and other processes should not affect realtime audio though, if the system is properly designed
<scott-work> i understand the concept, but it just struck me as that "you can either have lowlatency but not performance" was being said. which is just my misunderstanding what he was saying
<scott-work> i believe we get pretty damn good performance from lowlatency, myself :)
<scott-work> but i understand you wouldn't want to use it for stock trading, let's say
<len-1304> 9 hours at 32 frames with no xruns. I was never able to do that before
<len-1304> scott-work, yes there is a trade of of performace for latency, but it is not big.
<len-1304> It is very hard to tell because at a lower latency, more cpu is used to deal with the audio too.
<len-1304> The PA-jack bridge is a great test tool for this as pa takes more cpu than jack and brings out the effect
<zequence> scott-work: do you have time? Just let me know when would be a good time. 
<scott-work> zequence: i think i'm good now if you want to discuss things :)
<zequence> scott-work: Ok, great
<zequence> Oh, time flies
<zequence> I was just getting something to eat.
<scott-work> i'm here for another hour or so, go get something to eat
<zequence> scott-work: No, sorry. I meant, I just ate
<zequence> scott-work: I've started a page https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/MissionStatement
<zequence> Was just looking at what else to put in there for material
<zequence> Putting in the stuff from the blueprint
<scott-work> zequence: do you think ubuntu studio should provide a basic desktop functionality?
<zequence> scott-work: That's ubuntustudio-desktop more or less
<zequence> My list is more intended for the developer view of things. I think if we write something up for users, or just anyone, it doesn't need to be as formal. Also, my list was a suggestion to begin with
<scott-work> sorry, that question didn't come out as i intended
<scott-work> i was wondering if that it being a minimal pedestrian desktop usage should be included
<zequence> I'd like it if we after agreeing on what Ubuntu Studio is, or should be doing, that we condense that into as few words as possible. Something almost slogan like. And then, also, keep a more formal page with a more in depth description of what that is
<zequence> scott-work: Sorry, I seem to not understand :)
<scott-work> no, no. it was my fault
<scott-work> i'm wondering if we should also mention that we are constrained within the ubuntu ecosphere...meaning there will be certain application that might never be included by default
<zequence> I added your list of things, if you didn't refresh yet, btw
<zequence> I guess we are constrained for two reasons. One being legal. The other, possibly, being that we prefer FLOSS over non FLOSS, and therefore, everything is FLOSS
<zequence> Or, what kind of applications do you mean?
<scott-work> i forget the name, but i believe it was a sampler that has a funny license issue with it
<zequence> Performance is important, so we might constrain some things because of that
<scott-work> linux sampler?
<zequence> linux-sampler is not in any of the distros
<zequence> Yeah, there are a couple. 
<zequence> cinerella too
<zequence> But, I think it might be possible to get linux-sampler into the repos though
<scott-work> cinerella used to be in the repos didn't it? that is suprising that it isn't in there anymore. but not that i keep current with the repos though
<zequence> Perhaps harder to get it on a ISO. But, there are non-free things in the kernel, so why not?
<zequence> No, I don't think cinerella has ever been in any of the repos. Only PPA, and similar external repos
<zequence> I might be wrong
<zequence> So, we should mention that the applications we offer are official Ubuntu packages - not a separate thing. And, that most of them come directly from Debian
<zequence> I had an idea about keeping a "What is Ubuntu Studio" page, where things like that would be clarified
<zequence> For a short version, it would be enough just to say: Ubuntu Studio is an official flavor of Ubuntu. For a long version, one can explain also the relationship with Debian, and why not other Ubuntu derivatives, like Mint and KX
<zequence> FLOSS, Ubuntu, the whole licensing issue..
<scott-work> zequence: what about "provide complete multimedia workflows of FLOSS applications for the beginners and professional content creator"
<zequence> scott-work: Ok, so here's another aspect too. We want to target both beginners and pros
<scott-work> for a missions statement it's a little clunky, but succinct, and i think covers the majority of what we need to consider
<scott-work> we could also prepend "using ubuntu official repositories, provide...."
<scott-work> i really hope we can leverage ttoine's experience so that we can prepare real documentation for a pro studio
<zequence> I'm know myself around a recording studio, and so does holstein. All of us do a little bit different kinds of music, but I feel pretty confident on that area
<zequence> I'm more worried about the other areas. But that's mostly cause I don't know them myself at all, or very little
<zequence> Linux is actually quite ok for pro audio. It's the semi pro field that is a little worse. People who like the software to do the job for them
<zequence> Things are less good looking, etc
<zequence> A sound engineer can do a lot with raw tools, if needed, while a "beginner" might get things sounding ok with good presets
<zequence> Anyway, I added what's been said so far to the wiki page, so please refresh
<zequence> A little chaotic
<scott-work> agreed. i have felt the same way and think i even made a blog post with a similar expression
<zequence> I think another thing that I would like Ubuntu Studio to do is to really become the centre point of Linux Floss multimedia. 
<scott-work> give linux to a platinum record producer and a PT setup with all the plugins and i expect that you will get far different results from the two
<zequence> What I mean by that is, we are at the forefront, technology wise, but also a source for information
<zequence> We provide news, and link to others. We know the developers. We know the community. We branch out everywhere
<zequence> Someone who is new to Linux multimedia should be able to find all the branches through us
<scott-work> zequence: i need to go, i still have to get stuff for the kids before i get home. see everyone tomorrow
#ubuntustudio-devel 2013-02-14
<smartboyhw> !testers | new images 20130213 has arrived
<smartboyhw> !testers
<smartboyhw> Hmm........
<smartboyhw> !tester
<smartboyhw> len-1304, ping
<smartboyhw> What the...How come at the ISO QA Tracker Ubuntu Studio Test pages there is only one bug to look for and it's Bug 1?
<smartboyhw> Bug 1
<smartboyhw> Clearly ubottu went haywire
 * smartboyhw yawns
<len-1304> smartboyhw, there should be two bugs to look for I think.
<smartboyhw> len-1304, oh?
<smartboyhw> I reported our old bug which we fixed in Raring (that -icon-theme)
<smartboyhw> Guys, I set up the release notes of 12.04.2 to go out at 14:00 UTC (around that time anyway) on ubuntustudio.org
<smartboyhw> zequence, any chance for you to test 12.04.2 i386 images?
<zequence> smartboyhw: Maybe. cjwatson was asking about where we publish our release notes. What's the link again?
<smartboyhw> zequence, I got it now in ubuntustudio.org
<zequence> smartboyhw: Yes, but the wiki link
<smartboyhw> zequence, well either http://ubuntustudio.org/2013/02/ubuntu-studio-12-04-2-lts-precise-pangolin-release-notes/ or wiki.ubuntu.com/PrecisePangolin/ReleaseNotes/UbuntuStudio
<smartboyhw> zequence, I set that post to be public 7 hours later
<smartboyhw> I mean in the website
 * smartboyhw is zsyncing the i386 image
<smartboyhw> amd64 works fine, except the Xubuntu logo is still on (LOL)
<zequence> Where is the logo? In ubiquity?
<smartboyhw> zequence, yep
<smartboyhw> zequence, we didn't backport it to Precise
<smartboyhw> And as len-1304 and micahg said: It would require a complete rewrite of quite a number of packages
<smartboyhw> It's not critical anyway
<zequence> cjwatson: there's the wiki https://wiki.ubuntu.com/PrecisePangolin/ReleaseNotes/UbuntuStudio, and then we're publishing on our website  http://ubuntustudio.org/2013/02/ubuntu-studio-12-04-2-lts-precise-pangolin-release-notes/ (not published yet). smartboyhw is actually doing this work for us atm
<zequence> Ah, sorry :)
<smartboyhw> zequence, LOL wrong channel:P
<smartboyhw> zequence, PING
<smartboyhw> zequence, is Ubuntu Studio Precise 12.04.2 i386 still using a lowlatency-pae kernel?
<smartboyhw> zequence, I have tested all the images and they passed. If scott-work doesn't show up before release time, it would be your decision to make the release happen
<smartboyhw> The images are ready
<zequence> smartboyhw: Ok, I'll do the test then
<smartboyhw> zequence, what test!?
<zequence> smartboyhw: Oh, sorry. I misread. Thought you still needed to have i386 tested
<smartboyhw> zequence, LOL. Just that lowlatency-pae question needs answering.
<smartboyhw> zequence, does 12.04.2 i386 still uses lowlatency-pae?
<zequence> smartboyhw: I've actually never bothered to look which is installed by default. As a matter of fact, Ubuntu Studio 32 bits seems to install both -generic and -lowlatency-pae by default
<zequence> Let me have a look
<smartboyhw> zequence, :O
<zequence> This is something we need to fix of course
<smartboyhw> zequence, I think only -lowlatency-pae
<smartboyhw> http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/ubuntustudio/precise/dvd/current/precise-dvd-i386.manifest
 * smartboyhw goes and changes release notes before it's too late
<zequence> smartboyhw: So, that shows we ship -lowlatency-pae, but it's not showing the problem with -generic, which I need to look at further
<smartboyhw> zequence, good
<zequence> Anyway, pae it is
<smartboyhw> zequence, I don't think we have that problem anymore
<smartboyhw> I looked at both raring and precise daily's manifests, and they don't include any linux-generic
<zequence> smartboyhw: Yet, generic is installed with Ubuntu Studio
<smartboyhw> zequence, eeh?!
<zequence> I'll have a closer look at this later. 
<zequence> I had to remove -generic from all the test installs I've done, which I set up for test the lowlatency kernel
<zequence> I don't usually dabble with testing ISOs, and I don't have a deep understanding of the whole process of how the ISO is made and installed. At some point, generic is installed
<smartboyhw> zequence, I think it's the recommends or that sort of thing
<zequence> smartboyhw: If you want to find out why, be my guest. We should change it for raring
<smartboyhw> zequence, I want to. But make it tomorrow. I'm busy doing tests:P
<zequence> Sure. I'm preparing to do raring kernel testing myself, and will want to try make it perform better
<zequence> Just realized I have a small firewire 400 connector on my laptop. Should be possible to run my focusrite on that :P
<zequence> Texas Instruments, even
<smartboyhw> zequence, :!
<astraljava> smartboyhw: You should quit smoking. It's bad for you. *groan* On another note, were you intending to debug the precise kernel issue in time for .2? When is it due?
<smartboyhw> astraljava, what!?
<smartboyhw> zequence, is astraljava's IRC account hacked or what!?
<smartboyhw> Does anyone know what astraljava is saying!?
<zequence> smartboyhw: I think he was referring to :!, on the first two sentences (at least I think so), and on the other, he was probably referring to the issue with generic being installed on Studio
<zequence> astraljava: The kernel issue will have to wait, but I do agree, smartboyhw should definately quit smoking!
<smartboyhw> zequence, astraljava: 1. I mean I am surprised , not smoking
<smartboyhw> Next time: !:O
<smartboyhw> astraljava, zequence 2. 12.04.2 is releasing TODAY and it's zequence who's the kernel lead:P
<smartboyhw> You all mistaken me:(
<smartboyhw> zequence, astraljava I want an official apology:(
<smartboyhw> zequence, time for a new linux-lowlatency in precis
<smartboyhw> *precise
<zequence> smartboyhw: I've already updated, yesterday
<smartboyhw> zequence, good. Let me wait for it
<smartboyhw> zequence, why does it show "In Progree" for Bug 1124517?:P
<ubottu> bug 1124517 in Kernel SRU Workflow upload-to-ppa "linux-lowlatency: 3.2.0-38.39 -proposed tracker" [Medium,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1124517
<smartboyhw> For prepare-package
<smartboyhw> Hmm
<zequence> smartboyhw: A lot of those things are done automatically, by a bot
<zequence> I don't have access to the information around that, so I don't know all the details
<zequence> The procedure for doing the bug is not yet finished
<zequence> I only got my gpg key signed recently, so that makes me now a trusted source
<smartboyhw> Oh
<zequence> Next I will start doing more on the packaging bit. As of yet, I only update my own git tree. apw pulls from it.
<zequence> I'm also editing the bug report manually, but again, the procedure is not finished yet, so it changes from time to time
<astraljava> smartboyhw: Well, if you're offended by the remarks of your typos, then I'll humbly apologize. And yes, I was referring to the -generic issue.
<astraljava> s/typos/smileys/
<kubotu> astraljava meant: "smartboyhw: Well, if you're offended by the remarks of your smileys, then I'll humbly apologize. And yes, I was referring to the -generic issue."
<astraljava> Sorry, my brain is not functioning today.
<smartboyhw> Wow kubotu is still here!
<smartboyhw> astraljava, um no:P
<smartboyhw> astraljava, make it for 12.04.3
<astraljava> Oh ok.
<astraljava> Then I can do it, too, assuming it's fairly far into the future.
<smartboyhw> astraljava, yep
<smartboyhw> astraljava, you are one of the kernel guys
<smartboyhw> I'm not:P
<zequence> This is not really related to the kernel itself, but the ISO
<smartboyhw> zequence, the seeds
<zequence> smartboyhw: the kernels don't show in seeds. As I haven't been working with that much, I don't know how some of the stuff not showing up in seeds are included
<smartboyhw> zequence, the recommends/
<smartboyhw> Probably
<zequence> smartboyhw: What recommends?
<smartboyhw> zequence, some packages may recommend installing other packages
 * smartboyhw -> dinner
 * smartboyhw hopes scott-work will turn up today
 * smartboyhw waits for scott-work to get to work, as in his email
<zequence> smartboyhw: Basically, you're wanting to ask him if it's ok to publish the iso?
<smartboyhw> zequence, yep. If scott-work doesn't appear in 1-2 hours, zequence you would have to do it
<smartboyhw> If not, problem
<zequence> I'll be away for a little while. bb in about half an hour
<smartboyhw> zequence, no worries
<len-1304> There you go smartboyhw 
<smartboyhw> len-1304, yay
<smartboyhw> scott-work, yay!!!!!
<smartboyhw> OK the images are now marked ready!!!!!!
<smartboyhw> scott-work, zequence do you guys want ~ubuntustudio-core to be setup to have privileges to mark releases ready?
<smartboyhw> That makes sense eh?
<zequence> scott-work: What do you think? That would let anyone of us do it manually. No need to do it by IRC
<zequence> Kubuntu is apparently doing it this way
<smartboyhw> zequence, they are planning to:P It would make sense for you guys to do it
<smartboyhw> scott-work, ^
<zequence> smartboyhw: I think poking him once is enough ;). 
<smartboyhw> zequence, ;)
<smartboyhw> zequence, when you guys made the decision to do so tell stgraber on #ubuntu-release
<zequence> edubuntu apparently has a ~edubuntu-release team, but I wonder if we really need another team :P
<smartboyhw> zequence, just use ubuntustudio-core
<smartboyhw> See ya all
<smartboyhw> jussi or holstein: Please help change channel topics on both #ubuntustudio and #ubuntustudio-devel
<holstein> smartboyhw: i can.. whats up?
<smartboyhw> holstein: In user channel add Ubuntu Studio 12.04.2 LTS released and point to the release notes on ubuntustudio.org
<holstein> do we do that?
<holstein> shoule i add it on?
<holstein> should*
<holstein> scott-work: what do you think?
<smartboyhw> I think we should. But at least: Remove the testing bits on the topic here
<smartboyhw> holstein:^
<smartboyhw> scott-work: Don't forget to send out an announcement after the images get loaded into cdimage.ubuntu.com/ubuntustudio/releases
<scott-work> holstein: if you think it's a good idea, then i'd say do it :)
<scott-work> zequence: i think using hte -core team for releases is good
<smartboyhw> scott-work :-D
<smartboyhw> scott-work, zequence so tell stgraber if you guys want control of marking releases ready
<scott-work> smartboyhw: do you have a link to the 12.04.02 release notes on ubuntustudio.org? if so i'll see if i can change the topic now
<smartboyhw> scott-work http://ubuntustudio.org/2013/02/ubuntu-studio-12-04-2-lts-precise-pangolin-release-notes/
* scott-work changed the topic of #ubuntustudio-devel to: [Ubuntu Studio Development Channel | https://code.launchpad.net/ubuntustudio | Ubuntu Studio 12.04 LTS is released: http://goo.gl/FEAxP | Ubuntu Studio 12.10 is released http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/ubuntustudio/releases/12.10/release/ | Ubuntu Studio 12.04.2 is released http://goo.gl/29QaS
<scott-work> smartboyhw: is that okay with you? let me know if you want a change
<smartboyhw> scott-workâ¦ two 12.04 in the topic??
<scott-work> oops, my bad. trying to do too many things as once
<smartboyhw> no worries
* scott-work changed the topic of #ubuntustudio-devel to: [Ubuntu Studio Development Channel | https://code.launchpad.net/ubuntustudio | Ubuntu Studio 12.04.02 LTS is released: ISO- http://goo.gl/FEAxP Notes-http://goo.gl/29QaS | Ubuntu Studio 12.10 is released http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/ubuntustudio/releases/12.10/release/
<smartboyhw> Thanks scott-wok
<smartboyhw> *scott-work
<scott-work> of course this is presuming that the link for the ISO will be correct when the image is pushed ;)
<smartboyhw> lol
<holstein> scott-work: cheers
<holstein> lets go with that, and see what needs to be changed
<smartboyhw> cheers
<zequence> scott-work: I passed on the request to have the LP team handle accepting a release ready
<zequence> scott-work: So, is there anything else that you think we should add to the Mission Statement, as far as ideas go?
<zequence> I think I'd like to go ahead and start drafting some concrete text for it. I'm thinking a short version, and a long version, where the long version can be a bit more thorough and informative, while the short version is just very clear about what Ubuntu Studio is about
<scott-work> zequence: i think drafting something is good. i was also going to suggest we ask for some input from others as well
<zequence> scott-work: yeah, I guess it would be good. Post on the devel list?
<zequence> Or, even a less formal discussion on user, to see what our users think?
<scott-work> hmmmm, we might start with -dev and then once it's a little more solidified we can ask on -users? bah, i'm good whichever way we do it
<zequence> scott-work: On LAU there was just a discussion on what sucks and what rules about Linux audio. Ubuntu Studio is not only audio, which many people will easily forget, but that is probably a good resource for info
<zequence> I think we could have a similar discussion on the topic of Ubuntu Studio
<zequence> I guess we could throw out the question on all our channels and mail lists
<zequence> Though, I feel we already know what people will say. What kind of opinsions there will be
<zequence> Another way would be: we make a draft of something, and publish it. Ask for feedback. Then do changes
<zequence> scott-work: I was just notified about ~ubuntustudio-core getting the privileges to change more stuff over at iso.qa.ubuntu.com, so we can accept the releases ourselves
<zequence> scott-work: You need to logout and in again to see the difference
<zequence> We can mark them for rebuild, testing, done or even remove as it seems
<zequence> ttoine: How did the interview go?
<scott-work> zequence: good idea about discussion of ubuntu studio. really good idea
<scott-work> zequence: oh, and that is super sweet about the -core team and release :)
<scott-work> ttoine_: hello!
<ttoine_> hello !
<ttoine_> ?
<zequence> ttoine_: Seems like you just quit. We're dying to hear the results about the interview :)
<ttoine_> zequence, i am here
<ttoine_> yes, the interview was very interesting
<ttoine_> stephane is a nice guy
<ttoine_> mr
<ttoine_> more a scientiest than a geek, actually
<zequence> ttoine_: Sounds interesting
<zequence> Steam is having a Linux sale. Steam appeared in Ubuntu's software Center today
<zequence> Still weird using it
<ttoine_> yep
<ttoine_> zequence, so official release for ubuntu ?
<ttoine_> I will have to write the interview in french
<ttoine_> then, translate it in english
<ttoine_> and then, ask scott-work for proof read
<zequence> ttoine_: Yeah. The fun part of it is, I'm using the free drivers playing the games. I've only tried one so far. 
<zequence> The free drivers don't perform as well, AFAIK, but they seem to have more or less full functionality
<zequence> Both AMD and NVIDIA
<zequence> This is on Raring, so probably a bit more up to date than Precise on that
<ttoine_> zequence, I guess
<ttoine_> there is PPA with the latest free drivers
<ttoine_> and x-edgers, too
<ttoine_> yes, steam in in 12.04 too
<zequence> I'm getting a bit more cumfy with maintaining -lowlatency, so I will soon put up a PPA for testing kernels
<zequence> There are a bunch of configs that are interesting to find out more about
<ttoine_> great
<ttoine_> zequence, monday, I begin my new job...
<ttoine_> a dream job
<zequence> ttoine_: :)
<ttoine_> for some weeks, I will only have internet at work
<ttoine_> I will live in an old mountain house a friend of my mother let me use
<ttoine_> but no internet available
<zequence> ttoine_: Send us postcards (jk)
<zequence> Just tried CS Source. 1080p, on a NVIDIA 210. It doesn't work well on proprietary drivers either, but a bit worse on the free ones. Still, pretty impressive. All, until the game just crashed suddenly :(
<ttoine_> too bad
<ttoine_> but it is quite cool to have an official port !
<ttoine_> well, time to sleep
<zequence> ttoine_: GN
<ttoine_> good st valentin everyone
<ttoine_> I mean, if you are not single, of course
#ubuntustudio-devel 2013-02-15
<ttoine> hello
<ttoine> I just ordered a galaxy nexus !
<zequence> ttoine: Cool. I'm waiting until the Ubuntu phone comes out. Don't have a smartphone yet
<ttoine> I can't wait for 21th february !
<ttoine> well, good night
#ubuntustudio-devel 2013-02-16
<zequence> len-1304: I was able to upload a lowlatency kernel to my ppa ppa:zequence/kernel-testing
<zequence> It has some stuff disabled
<zequence> debug stuff mostly
<zequence> 3.8 for raring
<zequence> There's no meta, just the image. linux-image-3.8.0-6.4-shaved1-lowlatency
<zequence> no headers, so no proprietary drivers
<zequence> hmm, I think this kernel must really suck for lowlatency
<Lumpy> heyas
<zequence> Lumpy: 
<zequence> hi
<zequence> len-1304: The raring kernel is not performing well for me at all
<zequence> My "shaved off" version did not have any effect on performance of what I can see. Did cyclictest and some audio testing
<zequence> This is AMD, so disabling Intel stuff would of course not affect anything
<zequence> cyclictest shows something like 10x more than one would expect from a well configure realtime kernel
<zequence> results were far better on Quantal
<zequence> I need to retest. In fact, I should do this properly and just post the results on ubuntustudio-testing
<len-1304> zequence, I am using Linux studio1304 3.8.0-6-lowlatency #4-Ubuntu SMP PREEMPT Tue Feb 12 12:57:58 UTC 2013 i686 i686 i686 GNU/Linux
<len-1304> I have not had any problems
<len-1304> zequence, I guess I should ask what you mean by performance...
<len-1304> To me it means better audio performance. Lower latency without xruns. Greater stability at higher cpu loads.
<Lumpy> heya len-1304 
<Lumpy> for what it is worth, linux means better performance
<Lumpy> :)
<Lumpy> i get xruns but listeners never seem to notice it
<Lumpy> nini all
<zequence> len-1304: I'm getting really poor results from cyclictest as well as just running jackd with a software
<zequence> Just running jack is not enough
<zequence> The goal is to have jack run more or less stable at 32 frames/period with software and cpu load
<zequence> And more or less perfect at 64 frames/preiod
<zequence> this is what we had on Natty
<zequence> With cpu load, I include jerking around with graphics and doing something like decompressing files using all cores
<zequence> or compiling something
<zequence> if it's realtime, nothing will budge the process
<zequence> or should
<zequence> now, since i've done all too little testing my results are not enough to talk about really. Other than that these were extremely poor
<zequence> I had better results on Quantal
<zequence> more than twice as good on cyclictest
<zequence> hmm, I do have headers. of course I do
<zequence> I'm gonna try something else next. Use an older release with both it's kernel and newer one
<zequence> I'm highly suspecting it's not the kernel that causes all of the grief
<smartboyhw> zequence, promise me one thing: If you are going to use the ~ubuntustudio-core powers to change testcases of Ubuntu Studio in the ISO QA Tracker, INFORM ME
 * smartboyhw goes to change links at download page of ubuntustudio.org
<smartboyhw> It isn't updated....
 * smartboyhw is thinking that we should probably have a release checklist.....
<smartboyhw> zequence, ^
<zequence> smartboyhw: That sounds like a good idea. Actually, I'm starting to think that it might be a good idea also to create a release team
<smartboyhw> zequence, oh......
<smartboyhw> zequence, BTW you got something wrong on the team structure page
<smartboyhw> For the leaders role (you and scott-work) it is not Quality ISSURANCE it is Quality ASSURANCE :P
<smartboyhw> There is no such thing as QI:P
<zequence> smartboyhw: If you find spelling/grammar mistakes, please feel free to correct them
<smartboyhw> zequence, ok
<smartboyhw> zequence, I also updated the download links for 12.04.2 in the community wiki and ubuntustudio.org
 * smartboyhw likes doing typo edits
<zequence> Swedish is quite close to English in many ways, and we would use the same word for both
<zequence> It's easy to make this kind of mistakes
<smartboyhw> zequence, oh really?
 * smartboyhw doesn't know that
<zequence> The correct grammar there would be "didn't", but I guess that is because Chinese doesn't make a distinction between did or do
<smartboyhw> zequence, LOL
<smartboyhw> I have better English than Chinese (srsly)
<zequence> I speak three languages fluently myself, plus a little German. But, I wouldn't say I'm very good at any of them. For two reasons. I'm not good at remembering words, and I've never put much time into improving my language skills
<smartboyhw> Uh
<zequence> My sisters are both speak at least four languages fluently, but they are living abroad
<zequence> - are
<smartboyhw> zequence, if you one day set up have a seperate team for releases tell me I might join (of course that depends on you really
<zequence> smartboyhw: Yeah, I was thinking of that. Since you are the person most active with that anyway
<zequence> would make sense
<smartboyhw> zequence, thanks
<smartboyhw> I seemingly have pleasure doing ISO tests..... (more weirdly, I ranked third in doing 12.04.2 ISO tests, doing 46)
<zequence> I'll just talk with Scott, so he's in on it. Then I'll create the team. Add you to it, and ask the guy in -release to change it again for us
<zequence> Wow, that's plenty
<smartboyhw> zequence, the guy = stgraber. OK
<smartboyhw> LOL
<smartboyhw> zequence, there's a typo: I actually only did 44. However the first (pwlars) and the second (psivaa) has got 136 and 129 test results in 12.04.2. How on earth did they accomplish that!?
<len-1304> zequence, on my P4 with 32 frames on jack I am pushing 70% DSP, but the cpu% is much higher.  I am getting 0 to maybe 3 xruns in a few hours.
<smartboyhw> Hey len-1304 thank you for testing 12.04.2
<len-1304> The xruns are from SW updates BTW.
<len-1304> smartboyhw, NP
<len-1304> zequence, I will try to spend some time today pushing things with guitarix and rakarrack.
<len-1304> But so far the biggest difference has been turning hyperthreading off.
<len-1304> On a multicore machine I don't know that hyperthread is that helpful.
 * len-1304 thinks hyperthreading was a stop gap before multi-core... or maybe a sales gimmick
<Lump|AFK> heya len-1304 
<Lump|AFK> for what it is worth, I agree with you on the hyper threading but I sure love my atom on my Eee
<len-1304> Lump|AFK, how are you.
<Lump|AFK> i am tired and stresssed atm
<len-1304> The atom based MBs seem to be some of the netter ones for audio
<len-1304> *better
<Lump|AFK> been pulled a bit thin recently and I need to hustle some bucks for bills
<Lump|AFK> but such is the life of one self employed.
<len-1304> Been there. This has been a hard year for money for us.
<Lump|AFK> i am going to try streaming with the Eee in the near future
<Lump|AFK> some of the local clubs are interested in live remotes
<Lump|AFK> so i need to decide if i can use the eee or need to build a machine for it
<len-1304>  I have been looking at linphone with the thought of hacking in jack support.
<len-1304> Sounds like fun.
<Lump|AFK> you have to keep me posted on that one
<Lump|AFK> now that linux is coming to phones i may get a smart phone down the road
<Lump|AFK> but after trying windows mobile, i ended up going back to a palm m500
<len-1304> Ya, the problem I see is that the streamer is separate from the rest. I need to see if it is only started when the call connects.
<Lump|AFK> i just like the palm, jpilot interface much better than micro$oft's outlook and pocket pc
<Lump|AFK> pluc, imho, the graffiti beats the pants off ms handwriting rec
<len-1304> There is a broadcast quality box out that is built to act as a studio end to phone converstions.
<Lump|AFK> yeah isn't that ironic.. land line providers now specialize in compression and cell phone carries move to fidelity
<len-1304> It doesn't use jack, but goes straight to audio or AES3 i/o
<len-1304> The problem is that "leased line" is no longer being offered in a lot of places.
<len-1304> So AoIP is all that is left.
<len-1304> I have been reading a lot of EBU papers on this stuff
<Lump|AFK> land lines are now optional for carriers outside of business i guess
<Lump|AFK> which, imho, is rather scary
<len-1304> I want to make a SIP client that is standards compliant with the EBU standard for Linux.
<len-1304> Landlines (of some form) are still very much in use. The form is changing though.
<Lump|AFK> ntl, i have to get jiggy with my nick soon
<len-1304> Things are going digital right at the house instead of shipping audio all the way the the switch
<Lump|AFK> you going to be about today?
<len-1304> Off and on yes.
<Lump|AFK> hopefully i can catch ya later
<len-1304> K
<Lump|AFK> btw and fwi, it think i went over 5 hours continuous on the stream last night
<Lump|AFK> sf was in --> meterbridge ppm --> jack rack with compressor and eq --> meterbridge ppm -- idjc
<len-1304> Sounds great.
<Lump|AFK> largest xrun was just a few tenths over a millisecond
<len-1304> zequence, pulse 3.* is now released into quantal seems to fix the starting of jack while streaming so far.
<len-1304> Lump|AFK, that is pretty good, was there any noticable glitch?
<len-1304> (sound wise?)
<Lump|AFK> had a good number of listeners in chat throughout the night
<Lump|AFK> and every time i saw an xrun, i asked
<Lump|AFK> nobody noticed
<Lump|AFK> i notice because i monitor the line in and not the compresseedd, eqed stream
<Lump|AFK> but i think the real time kernel makes the line in skip but not the stream out
<Lump|AFK> i never can hear it on the finished recording either
<Lump|AFK> i would like to monitor the stream but the delay ends up making one slur their speach like a drunk
<Lump|AFK> nonetheless i have to head out or we are going to be a hungry familyu
<Lump|AFK> er family
<Lump|AFK> i will be back later today and hopefully about more tomorrow
<Lump|AFK> i still want to get around to installing the nightly and setting up error reporting and such
<Lump|AFK> forgive me i have just been buried of the late
<holstein> on xrun here and there might not be a big deal
<holstein> i usually go for zero xruns
<holstein> i would just bump the latency up a little
<holstein> just the next settings higher
<Lump|AFK> hey holstein, i have to bolt but i will give that a try
<Lump|AFK> although really very few xruns... maybe one an hour
<Lump|AFK> usually it occurs when i switch workspaces
<holstein> sure, but you likely dont need the low latency
<holstein> you also could be at like 18ms.. and going to 30 or 40 would really not make that much differece
<holstein> difference*
<holstein> for me, anything over about 12ms, and im not able to do live effects or software synths, so it might as well be stable at 80ms
<Lump|AFK> like i said, i will give it a try
<holstein> that would literally mean that, on your stream, what you do will happen 80ms later... im sure no one would notice
<Lump|AFK> ntl, i will play with latency next stream, for now, i need to get to the store
<Lump|AFK> you have a good day len, holstein and room
<Lump|AFK> and thanks for the help you always provide
<Lump|AFK> you being plural
<holstein> cheers!
<len-1304> holstein, Ya, bumping latency up works for most things, but can add extra pauses in when you have contributors that are remote.
<len-1304> Though I think at the moment, he is running the remote line in with the mics through a mixer.
<Lump|AFK> correct len
<Lump|AFK> so it would be mute
<Lump|AFK> ntl for real now, my coat is on
<Lump|AFK> cya
<len-1304> holstein, have you tried the difference with hyperthreading turned off or on ?
<len-1304> Lump|AFK, bye.
<holstein> len-1304: i havent, but i can
<len-1304> It has dropped me one latency step.
<holstein> interesting...
<holstein> you diable that in the bios?
<len-1304> Yes ,but it can be done after boot too.
<len-1304> There is a syscontrol command to disable some of the cpus. Linux sees hyperthreads as two cpus
<len-1304> so disabling every second cpu has the same effect.
<holstein> i have avlinux on a nice-ish box with ht
<holstein> i should try it there
<holstein> its easy to get an xrun
<len-1304> holstein, this in on my old P4 box. (single core)
<holstein> yeah, my main rig is a dual core
<holstein> iirc the other box with AVlinux is just a nice-ish p4 with ht
<len-1304> I don't seem to have any higher cpu% to do the same work either.
<len-1304> Lots of things that gave xruns before (like switching workspaces) don't seem to.
<holstein> that is odd
<holstein> maybe its the overhead or running HT these days
<len-1304> Could be.
<holstein> i should try that on my daily driver too
<holstein> my little netbook shows up like it has 4 cores
<len-1304> With a RT thread the context switch might happen a lot more often.
<len-1304> Ya, linux sees hyperthreading like extra cores... and uses them as such. So it is easy to end up with an RT thread and a non RT thread trying to use the core
<holstein> i like that email to the list "Hi, I am new to this and expect a lot of support and help from all."
<len-1304> Linux doesn't try to limit the time the Non RT thread has on it's "core" 
<len-1304> :))
<holstein> its gotta be some language barrier, or a large misunderstanding of what a mailing list is
<len-1304> Or used to comertial lists.
<len-1304> commercial.
<holstein> that too..
<len-1304> I have been working on switching my mode app from tcl/tk to python
#ubuntustudio-devel 2013-02-17
<zequence> Len-nb: I need to do more testing, but from what it seems, nouveau does in deed seem lousy for low latency
<zequence> The difference I got from cyclictest was around 10x more latency when stressing on nouveau
<Len-nb> Could be. It depends on what someone is doing. moving a solitaire card across the screen takes a lot of system use.
<Len-nb> zequence, lowlatency should be tested with audio SW (or video editing).
<Len-nb> testing with games or other desktop sw does not make sense,
<zequence> Len-nb: What you do is you run jack, and see if you make it have audio dropouts.
<zequence> With a jack application, of course
<zequence> Funny. Now I'm suddenly having the same sort of performance as I did on Natty almost
<zequence> Not a single xrun on 64 f/p. 
<zequence> As long as you're not using other realtime processes, it doesn't really matter what it is. It shouldn't budge the audio process
<Len-nb> Ya my testing was with 32 and audio apps setting cpu to 60% or so, no drop outs for over an hour.
<Len-nb> firefox was on and  did go from workspace to workspace
<Len-nb> I haven't had problems at 64 even with hyperthreads on.
<zequence> Len-nb: What kind of graphics do you have on that machine?
<Len-nb> older nvidia
<Len-nb> open driver
<zequence> There are some variables at play here. For me, nouveau was total crap. This is a farily modern card. 
<Len-nb> Gotta run... the family wants to go bowling
<Len-nb> zequence, I think that is the divider, I have an old card. The driver has gotten better for me in that it handles more things, but I have not seen any speed increase.
<Len-nb> With the newer card the driver tries to do more and prolly needs more work.
<len-1304> zequence, have you looked at http://wiki.linuxcnc.org at all? http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?Latency-Test has a list of better and worse MB for low latency work.
<len-1304> There is a trouble shooting link from that page that when talking video says "Avoid anything nvidia"  :)
<zequence> len-1304: Well, nvidia may be a problem, but considering nouveau are open, those can be made efficient. 
<zequence> And they've probably not been working on getting their drivers to work well in realtime enivronments
<zequence> len-1304: I saw rt-tests has a tool for measuring HW latency. Need to look more on that
<smartboyhw> Hey zequence 
<zequence> smartboyhw: hi
<smartboyhw> zequence, working on a Ubuntu Studio release checklist as said earlier
<zequence> smartboyhw: good. on the wiki?
<smartboyhw> zequence, not yet. I don't like editing on the wiki for the draft... I will push it to the wiki soon, possibly in 4-5 hours
<zequence> I'm much too unprofessional to do it properly myself. I tend to edit the wikis directly
<smartboyhw> oh
<zequence> len-1304: you should try using a realtime kernel, just to see the difference. debian wheezy has one which at least on my machine performs better than with -lowlatency
<zequence> len-1304: you should probably be able to run ice1712 at 16 f/p, but it'll creash easily, if you start any kind of jack program with it
<smartboyhw> zequence, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/ReleaseProcedure
<smartboyhw> First draft
<zequence> smartboyhw: Nice work. Just one note. We should try to keep the release specific work as much contained within the group that handles the relase
<smartboyhw> zequence, i.e. which step?:P
<zequence> smartboyhw: I don't think the doc team should handle release notes. The doc team is more of a User Guide writing team
<smartboyhw> zequence, sorry
 * smartboyhw edits it
<zequence> Better either a release team does that, or the core team. I might prefer the release team in this case
<smartboyhw> zequence, ok..... If scott-work wants to use the -core team I will edit it
<smartboyhw> zequence, edited the doc-team -> release team part
<zequence> smartboyhw: Seems like that was the only thing actually. One thing I would like to do though, is to condense the text. This is purely form a practical point of view. Each point should be as short as possible, and only contain words and links you absolutely need in order to understand what the point is about
<zequence> For example, point one, I would write: Dev Team ensures all milestone targetted bugs are fixed for this release.
<smartboyhw> zequence, yep. We need to simplify. But then I like technical things:P
<zequence> Or, for "the release"
<zequence> smartboyhw: It's just a detail, but one I think is important. It makes it so much easier for other people to follow what the plan is
<smartboyhw> zequence, :)
<zequence> This is something I try to think about all the time, when I write docs. If you can formulate information in a way which is time efficient to read, and also easy to understand, chances are people will be more efficient with their work, as the clues to what they need to do are so easy to follow
<smartboyhw> zequence, OK
<zequence> Assume everyone is a lazy moron
<smartboyhw> zequence, lol
 * smartboyhw is one
<zequence> I wouldn't suggest for you to do it this way, if you were writing docs for IBM
<smartboyhw> zequence, LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL
<smartboyhw> zequence, do you remember the rt ticket we submitted? When will it be done?
<smartboyhw> Clearly the Canonical IS isn;t listening
<len-1304> zequence, Re, RT stuff in general. I would be interested in the video editors POV.
<len-1304> I don't know how important latency is for that.
<len-1304> For the graphics person, raw throughput is probably more important.
<smartboyhw> zequence, someone in #ubuntu+1 said
<smartboyhw> <penguin42> interesting, we've been changed to the -lowlatency kernel build
<smartboyhw> !?
<smartboyhw> zequence, as it turns out: that guy actually manually used our kernel cause it's good
#ubuntustudio-devel 2014-02-10
<elfy> zequence: probably better to talk in here than there when I need to
<zequence> elfy: Right. Those are after all what we focus on
<elfy> yep - I assumed as much - I'll make a start getting the basic things written and merged and then synced to the tracker
<elfy> then we'll need to get you going on the tracker - or I can do it 
<zequence> Was gonna check how -lowlatency works. It booted one one machine, but not the next
<zequence> Also, no mouse pointer on the trusty install I have
<zequence> Yet, I thought to try jack
<zequence> However, no ALSA, at all
<zequence> no audio devices found
<zequence> Yeah, I think it's a great idea to go over to rolling release. It really would work
#ubuntustudio-devel 2014-02-11
<elfy> zequence: got really far yesterday ... vbox install went fubar and ended up in 640x480, then a hardware install refused to do anything, by the time I'd installed ubuntustudio-desktop on top of a spare xubuntu one - I'd had enough 
<elfy> not working till thursday - so I'll try and get a bunch started off before then
<zequence> elfy: You installed Ubuntu Studio trusty?
<elfy> in a vm it did, on hardware it failed from image - installed the bits for it from synaptic in an existing xubuntu install
<zequence> elfy: There might be some problems with the kernel. I had it fail on one machine
<zequence> But nice to know install is possible
<elfy> I saw in the backlog here - I'll have another look later today with the daily - see if it's any different
<zequence> I was supposed to do some testing last weekend. Only got the images downloaded last night
<elfy> :)
<elfy> when it's milestone testing times - give me a shout if you've got time issues and if I can do some when I've done ours I'm happy to help
<zequence> working on ubiquity plugins. The plan is we start using other flavor -desktop packages, only perhaps overriding a few things, and also perhaps adding our own custom theme
<zequence> Though, we should probably keep a custom DE, just for the hell of it
<zequence> Cool. Working
<zequence> OvenWerks: I had to remove the deletion of the XFCE session in the -default-settings postinstall script
<zequence> OvenWerks: We can't remove files that belong to other packages
<zequence> OvenWerks: I was able to add a package selection plugin for ubiquity, which is more or less straight imported from one of two Edubuntu plugins
<zequence> OvenWerks: Next, I will work on the DE agnostic part. We'll still need a default DE, but the user will be able to install any of a set of DEs during install
<zequence> OvenWerks: I applied for PPU (per package uploader) for our packages, but failed, much because of that postinstall script :P
<zequence> Going through all our packages now, making sure they are in good shape.
<zequence> Once there's a alpha version of -controls ready (maybe in one weeks time), I'll have that uploaded too
<zequence> There will be a few changes this cycle, no doubt
#ubuntustudio-devel 2014-02-12
<zequence> Requested to have lp:ubuntustudio-live uploaded, which I just have created a first version of
<zequence> It gives our ubiquity installer an additional page where one can select any of our metas. It's not perfect, and I will need to finetune it (probably by changing some stuff in our seeds), but it's working well enough to be used as is
<holstein> zequence: i know, i for one, woulnt mind being consulted prior to "what would you like to include" messages
<holstein> zequence: i mean, you are the boss, and im behind you.. but, that thread is already a mess
<holstein> if i may make constructive criticism.. maybe something more like "what do folks use as session management? what, from the default repos, would folks like to be included?"
<holstein> same about plugins.. 
<cub> hi zequence are you around?
<cub> I have done "bzr branch lp:~ubuntustudio-dev/ubuntu-seeds/ubuntustudio.trusty" and then made a change to the desktop file to add speech-dispatcher. I suppose I now have to upload it to my own launchpad, but I'm not sure if I should call it something else than "ubuntustudio.trusty"?
<zequence> cub: keep the name. Then, request a merge
<zequence> cub: also, have a look at the xubuntu seed, in the "desktop" file. There are some things that you might be interested in regard for that
<zequence> cub: Actually, I can just add that myself. Allthough, it's not a bad thing to learn how to go a
<zequence> ..about it
#ubuntustudio-devel 2014-02-13
<cub> Since a couple of weeks I have had issue with Trusty in Virtualbox only to run in 640x480 setting. Anyone else having the same problem?
<TheDrums> cub: vbox https://www.virtualbox.org/ticket/12623
<zequence_> Apparently the boot parameter "threadiqs", which has always been default on linux-lowlatency is causing kernel freezes with some drivers in the latest Ubuntu kernels
<zequence_> I was lucky to have this proble
<zequence_> If it doesn't get fixed, it'll mean that we won't have use for the rtirq script, by default
<zequence_> And users will need to set the boot parameter manually, if they don't suffer from the bug
<zequence> holstein: Not many here to consult. I use the email to make people aware of a few things during development
<holstein> zequence: sure, but that thread is a mess.. i was just suggesting trying to give it more focus.. so you dont have folks requesting a LAMP stack ship default in ubuntustudio
<holstein> kind of like len has done with the video editor discussion
<TheDrums> Just FYI in case you didn't see, Xubuntu is going for a git snapshot of xfce4-panel so we can get the indicators fully functioning.
<TheDrums> xfce4-indicator-plugin 2.2.0 should be next.
<holstein> TheDrums: thats good news, i think
<holstein> TheDrums: will that just end up in the repos? is it something we can be testing as well?
<TheDrums> Should be.  You can do testing right now, but unless something goes wrong it should be in the repos by the end of the week.
<TheDrums> If you seed the *-gtk2 indicators, that should change.
<TheDrums> (But wait for the whole stack before you do.)
<holstein> i personally dont do much heavy lifting.. im mostly head of complaining and ranting.. and support ;)
<TheDrums> Well, it's a note to the channel.
<zequence> holstein: I can't help what people think I mean when I ask for input on package selection
<holstein> sure.. and all im saying is, ask for just that
<zequence> IMO, it's pretty clear what that means in general
<holstein> like, "in the specific vido catagory"
<holstein> you can see from the thread its a mess
<holstein> zequence: yeah, but its not
<holstein> zequence: folks are requesting skype
<zequence> Not my fault. I was being pretty clear
<holstein> zequence: im not trying to place "fault".. just a suggestion about catagories
<zequence> As I said. I was pretty clear in my response
<holstein> ok
<holstein> and its the initial mail that is unclear, i suppose
<zequence> Unfortunately, I don't think we'll have a single person putting enough effort on that, but one can always try
<holstein> but, its more of a call for "what do you want in the os" rather than, "help us decide between these plugins"..
<holstein> for example
<zequence> You want to research what we should or should not be shipping?
<holstein> zequence: who would you like me to contact?
<zequence> Or you want to discuss what other peopel think I mean, when I ask for ideas?
<holstein> just consider making it more specific in the future.. thats all.. im not trying to be combative
<zequence> If you think the job needs improving, do the job
<holstein> again, not trying to be combative
<holstein> im aware of, and appreciate all your efforts
<holstein> i think the thread has gotten to a nice discussion of video editors
<zequence> I see some people list things they would like to see in Ubuntu Studio, but they aren't explaining why, which is one thing I mention intially
<zequence> Some things we already ship too. there's no quality in the responses
<zequence> So, a waste of time, practically
<zequence> But, again, one can always try
<holstein> thats what i was thinking
<zequence> Otherwise, it's just me doing things here, pretty much. Like, one guy making all the decisions
<holstein> and, i was trying to come up with a suggested way to break it up a bit.. "what audio plugins do you use" "what would you like to see added"
<zequence> If you want, do a mail like that
<holstein> zequence: and, i will but i *dont* want
<holstein> i didnt know we were in a position to accept that kind of feedback
<holstein> i woudnt do anything like that without consulting with you on it, to see if you think we have the resources, etc
<zequence> To do what?
<zequence> ask for opinions?
<holstein> zequence: add/remove packages
<zequence> We decide what is included
<holstein> sure.. and i didnt know a change was on the table
<zequence> a change? No one has been researching what is available for years
<zequence> There are new things coming out all the time
<zequence> Things that we might need
<holstein> sure.. and do we have the resources to research and add them? i didnt think so
<zequence> Other stuff that is obsolete, or just bad
<holstein> or broken.. or not supported anymore.. or not working with JACK
<holstein> but, what can we do about it?
<zequence> Are you kidding?
<holstein> im not on that level, and not sure that i ever will be
<holstein> and i wouldnt want to put that on you or anyone else
<zequence> It's just package selection. It's not rocket science
<holstein> i didnt say, or imply it was
<holstein> but, its not something i can deal with
<holstein> what are you looking at or thinking about specifically, zequence ?
<holstein> just audio packages you think?
<zequence> If you read the mail list, you can't miss what I meant
<holstein> maybe we could pick a section and clean it up
<zequence> I don't have time to talk more right now
<zequence> See you holstein 
<holstein> zequence: when you do have time, id like to work this out, becuase i *have* read the mail, and its quite general, which was my feedback
<holstein> i would like to, truly, and non-combatively, constructively try and address a specific topic.. maybe just audio plugin, for example.. i will try and start a thread after discussing it with you, if you agree
<holstein> or, we could break out the video editor discussion.. which i would have to load up a few of them, since i havent seen them in action first-hand in years
<zequence> holstein: I think it's up to each and everyone to try make the discussions useful. And one can start a new thread anytime to discuss a certain topic
<zequence> The positive side of this is that at least there are people talking
<zequence> Which is a nice contrast
<zequence> Discussions should be done mainly on the mail list
<zequence> I can't be more specific than I have been. But, you are of course free to carry on the discussion anywhere you want
<zequence> You don't need my permission for anything. I just keep the keys to the locks, and make sure changes have quality
<zequence> Discussing is never a bad thing
<zequence> Recent changes I did was dropping ardour2
<zequence> That's pretty much it for now
<holstein> so, audio production application cleanup is the ideal focus?
<zequence> No. Making sure we have a sound selection is always a focus
<cub> hi
<zequence> Our workflows, and desktop tools that help enhance them
<cub> I have had the wish to look into workflows and applications, but as everyone else, time is always short.
<cub> I didn't make much suggestions either since I haven't been doing any audio or video work for over a year. I wouldn't know about plugins.
<cub> and suddenly feature freeze is creeping up fast.
<zequence> Yeah, we need to make any changes in seeds before next Thursday
<zequence> Going to do some kernel testing. bbl
<holstein> zequence: i like that last response to the list.. very clarifying..
<cub> I'll send a request for merge later on this evening for the speech-dispatcher. Sure, it's easy for you to just add it manually but then I have done it "the right way". :)
<cub> holstein, zequence, yeah good response.
<cub> zequence, I made a bzr push to my own https://code.launchpad.net/~jimmy-sjolund/+junk/ubuntustudio.trusty but now I can't find any way to request a merge. Tips?
<cub> on the https://code.launchpad.net/~ubuntustudio-dev/ubuntu-seeds/ubuntustudio.trusty I see the "branch merges" heading but going forward there seems to try to merge the main ubuntustudio branch with my own, which is not allowed and it's the other way around I would want, right?
<cub> "This branch is not mergeable into lp:~jimmy-sjolund/+junk/ubuntustudio.trusty." Not sure what I'm doing wrong...
<knome> cub, afaik, you should push to lp:~jimmy-sjolund/ubuntu-seeds/ubuntustudio.trusty
<cub> I was wondering about that. My lp page suggested +junk and I just went with it.
<knome> yeah, that's the default push location
<cub> great, now I got the propose for merge button, thanks knome !
<knome> np
<cub> yay, merge proposed. :D
<cub> A small step for Ubuntu Studio but a huge leap for me.
<knome> :)
#ubuntustudio-devel 2014-02-14
<TheDrums> zequence, holstein: xfce4-panel and xfce4-indicator-plugin in proposed, will migrate soon.
<zequence> TheDrums: Nice
<TheDrums> They are fully in, if you seed any gtk2 indicators I'd recommend you drop.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2014-02-16
<OvenWerks> zequence: I just fixed a spelling mistake in the photgraphy seed file where one of the items had (item9 rather than (item). Also added entangle.
<OvenWerks> I reverted the last change in ubuntustudio.menu which changed one of our desktop files to link from application. Link is correct and lintian may complain and have to be over ridden. However, there are some DEs that do not recognize the link token (KDE and lxde?).
<OvenWerks> I am not sure how our iso was building with that in there unless someone fixed things down stream from there.
<zequence> I think you're assuming that the ISO would fail to build if there are errors in the seed file
<OvenWerks> Ya
<zequence> I'm a bit dissapointed that it didn't, since that is a good way of catching errors
<OvenWerks> I echo that sentiment
<zequence> The build reads the seed file directly. There's nothing happening in between
<OvenWerks> I could be one of the packages has been missing than
<OvenWerks> *then
<zequence> Probably that, yes
<zequence> I put together some info on how to set up ones own build server, here https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/SetupLocalIsoBuildServer
<OvenWerks> SUITE=raring ??
<zequence> It's an example
<OvenWerks> Ah.
<zequence> Not sure how and where the config is. I never went past one attempt of building, which sort of worked
#ubuntustudio-devel 2015-02-09
<zequence> OvenWerks: We should make any changes within the next week or so. Feature freeze is coming up
<zequence> I will put some time into -default-settings and seeds as far as mirroring Xubuntu is concerned
<zequence> I'm also still working on -controls too, so if you'd like to review our multimedia seeds, that would be great
#ubuntustudio-devel 2015-02-10
<DalekSec> zequence: If you have any questions, I'd be happy to answer them.  We also tried to pass bug 1211933 on to you and ping you, but not sure you saw.
<ubottu> bug 1211933 in ubuntustudio-live (Ubuntu) "mkinitramfs blows up on casper dependency" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1211933
<zequence> DalekSec: Thanks. Yes, I remember. I've just been doing other things for a long time.
<zequence> Time to wrap up this cycle and make sure the ISO boots, etc.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2015-02-11
<zequence> Anyone up for testing 14.04.2?
<elfy> zequence: re mail to the list - trusty .2 has been delayed to next week - but it would good for you to find out if you've been hit with a lot of issues like a lot of other flavours
<zequence> elfy: Ok, cool. Thanks. 
<DalekSec> http://paste.openstack.org/show/EVDiT8adc6hWD3wqvr3e yes, yes they do.
<OvenWerks> Down loading 32/64 bit ISOs now.
 * elfy is thinking that if you're based on us you're going to see things unexpected - unity greeter and ibus installled for 2 :p
<DalekSec> elfy: Checked their manifests, they have 'em.
<elfy> I guessed as much 
#ubuntustudio-devel 2015-02-12
<b_pl> Hello World
<OvenWerks> Wow 12% difference from yesterdays ISOs.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2015-02-13
<zequence> Did a quick boot of one of the images, and it seems we do have duplicates of some applets again.
<zequence> 14.04.2
<elfy> zequence: :D
<elfy> infinity is hoping to get it all fixed before 'tomorrow' 
<zequence> elfy: Nice
#ubuntustudio-devel 2015-02-15
<OvenWerks> psxppsxxt
<DalekSec> Hope that wasn't a pass.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2016-02-15
<zequence> hmm, we don't have a new default background yet, though
<zequence> OvenWerks: Did you manage to set up a good autostart routine for jack?
<zequence> I think some devices don't support changing samplerate on the fly, btw. But, that could be overcome by only allowing that for certain devices
<zequence> I'm working on -controls this week. Starting with system diagnosis
<zequence> Then, I'll add whatever there is time for
<OvenWerks> zequence: Any auto start script I can come up with requires some user inputs. Running zita-ajbridge on anything and everything is not really a good idea. we end up with more CPU being used than is really needed and of course many new MB have extra audio interfaces the user is unaware of.
<OvenWerks> I do have a script that will go through all the audio devices and connect them all to jack. (and create lines from pulse to them too) But I think there is a better way.
<zequence> OvenWerks: I will set up gui options and settings for that. Just wanted to see what you have and see if can incorporate that
<OvenWerks> I think it is better to find out from the user what they want to use as their default device, what they want to record from and if they want a USB device to automatically become master.
<zequence> One of the plans has been to have a setup wizard on first login. Would make it easy to set your system up for what you need
<zequence> There should be a function for checking if the chosen devices exist first, though. Especially USB and Firewire devices may not be connected during boot
<OvenWerks> zequence: if you can write a file .config/autojackrc that has some lines like DEV=<default> USB=yes or no EXTRA=<extra device to connect via zita-ajbridge>
<zequence> Yes, I will try to work that out
<zequence> OvenWerks: So, do you have the autostart script somewhere?
<zequence> I'm splitting up -controls into different scripts. The system configurations will be done with a separate command line script residing at /usr/sbin/ubuntustudio-sysconfig. THe gui will call the script when it needs to
<zequence> The gui will now be launched as normal user
<zequence> The gui may also be run as a command line application only.
<zequence> In the future it would be cool if the application could be used also on touch devices
<OvenWerks> zequence: I need to reduce it :) so it only deals with devices in the config file.
<OvenWerks> DEV= is already handled. I will do EXTRA= and do something with USB= too. I think I will connect at least the main HDA (internal) if found just to be safe.
<OvenWerks> The main thing with HDA will be the output.
<zequence> OvenWerks: Let me know when you have that done. I'm not sure how much I will be doing this week. Really depends on how much I can get done
<zequence> I would like to add autostart options at some point though
<OvenWerks> zequence: OK, I haven't really done anything for a week. I won't be doing anything in Ardour probably till after next point release. I only have my own control Surface SW going right now.
<OvenWerks> zequence: I also started working on a patch bay for jack. The main difference is that instead of just listing jack clients, it will also list ALSA devices that could be connected. (this is where I went after figuring out auto everything is not so good.)
<OvenWerks> in the end this should also be able to connect network AIs such as AVB AES67 streams.
<OvenWerks> but to begin I just want it to get to bridging ALSA/PA stuff.
<zequence> That would be cool
<OvenWerks> zequence: So I will setup autojack to check that DEV and EXTRA exist and make a package.
<zequence> OvenWerks: A package?
<OvenWerks> ya, that would probably be the easiest thing for you to pull from.
<zequence> Why not just supply the script? It's just one file, right?
<OvenWerks> A package shows all the files in the directory structure.
<zequence> Well, anyway you like.
<OvenWerks> no, there is a desktop file to go in /etc/xdg/autostart as well.
<zequence> Yeah, I figured
<zequence> If we incorporate that to -controls, the autostart will be running a more generic -controls script that does multiple things, checking from configs
<zequence> First doing a system diagnostic. Then, starting stuff up
<zequence> I would probably translate your stuff to python too
<zequence> I'm just mostly interested in the logic at this point, you know?
<OvenWerks> I can do a tarball then.
<zequence> sure
<OvenWerks> it is a bash script so nothing complex.
<OvenWerks> something on my system has a memory leak. I never use swap, but this morning swap was half full. The only two new things I had running were guitarix and gxtuner... unless it was a badly behaved webpage. Ardour was not running... mostly just terminals, file managers and firefox.
<zequence> did you check the processes?
<zequence> You should be able to spot which one is using an abnormal amount of memory
<OvenWerks> I have restarted guitarix to check that. The system was too slow to deal with so I just got rid of extra stuff.
<OvenWerks> guitarix was running for three or four days, so it may be a while.
<OvenWerks> FF was at 4.5 G, but has gone down to 2.6 by getting rid of gmail and google calendar and a few android app pages. I still have most of the tabs there (~30) so that may have been part of the problem.
<zequence> :)
<OvenWerks> (RAM is 8G)
<OvenWerks> Swap is 2.9G as I haven't changed it from when I had the P4 with 2.5G
<OvenWerks> on a different topic, AVB looks to be an up and coming thing. There are now three companies with AoIP audio IFs that support it: MOTU (who have also finally started doing USB2.0 compliant AI), focusrite (as part of their RedNet line) and Presonus with their digital rackmount line. Later OSx supports AVB at the ethernet port and there is enough stuff in openAVB to at least make a link in Linux as well (with the right NIC... Intel i210 is 
<OvenWerks> While aes67 should be easier to implement on linux (there is aes67 on windows but not AVB) there are few lower cost AIs that use it anyway. With AVB finally being finished, it may over shadow aes67 at least for a LAN.
<zequence> Didn't know about that. Seems interesting
<OvenWerks> I think it should be possible to come up with a jackd backend for AVB that will deal with at least one AVB AI even with no special NIC. A second AI would have to pass through the first I think to make that work though. At least one stream would have to be alive all the time for sync pruposes.
<OvenWerks> The i210 is not costly though, I picked up two at $49 CAD each.
<OvenWerks> zequence: the other parameters I use in auto jack are:
<OvenWerks> DRIVER=alsa
<OvenWerks> DEV=default
<OvenWerks> RATE=48000
<OvenWerks> FRAME=512
<OvenWerks> # zita-ajbridge seems to run better with a lower frame rate.
<OvenWerks> ZFRAME=256
<OvenWerks> PERIOD=2
<OvenWerks> zequence: Any of these can be overridden from .configure/autojackrc which is read in right after these.
<OvenWerks> DEV=default is the same as hw:0 but gets replaced with hw:name of hw:0
<OvenWerks> zequence: I am thinking I should change EXTRA= to EXTRA_C and EXTRA_P so that just capture or just play will work.
<knome> people, how do you see the ubuntu studio future?
<sakrecoer> knome: hopefully bright :) if you are asking in the broad sense
<sakrecoer> knome: how about you?
<sakrecoer> i'd like to see the desktop agnosticism happen. i think it would open up for acwider audience
<sakrecoer> *broader audience
<sakrecoer> *wider was probably the word i wanted
<sakrecoer> i'm adaptable, but desktop choice seem to be a decisive factor for many users
<sakrecoer> i wish that school systems world wide will adopt GNU/linux, logicaly in that thought i wish ubuntustudio would become the choice for artschoops
<sakrecoer> *artschools
<sakrecoer> its a not so distant reality in southamerica and africa i guess
<sakrecoer> hopefully the future of the graphics packages will look a bit like this: http://41.media.tumblr.com/6033c0e668e76ec87a8aa7cfe80c8c30/tumblr_np4y8cOkaC1rj6lpxo1_r1_1280.png :)
<sakrecoer> or like this: https://mir-s3-cdn-cf.behance.net/project_modules/max_1200/4adadf32534447.5689c1d2ed089.png
<knome> i
<knome> egh
<knome> i'm thinking more about the actual decisions and how studio will exist
<knome> i talked the other day with astraljava about this too and we circled around the idea of not releasing an ISO at all
<knome> just some metapackages for the workflows
<knome> i think the audio workflow is the best example how this could bring more than just "a selection of apps" to the table, with the JACK stuff and controls
<knome> this way you could forget all the DE stuff, and even wallpapers and that kind of branding
<knome> well, not forget branding completely, but not have to worry about maintaining a dozen of things that you have to do now
<knome> it might help the motivation for other people to join contributing, since everything is kind of straight-to-the-point and actually changing something
<knome> instead of losing some of the work to infrastructure and bureaucracy
<knome> with a team as small as the studio team, the time used for those is relatively substantial
<sakrecoer> knome: it is an interesting idea. i can see how it would be beneficial. i also think having an iso is a good "selling point". the prospect of having everything in place after install is attractive...
#ubuntustudio-devel 2016-02-16
<knome> except that currently you might end up downloading/installing a lot of stuff you don't need
<knome> i understand the selling point aspect, but it also means you need to maintain the config, run a lot more QA, partake in release related activities, specifically support the ISO...
<knome> it's a lot for something that doesn't seem like an essential thing from where i stand
<sakrecoer> as is now, one does have the option to install one, several or all the workflows..
<sakrecoer> i'm not against your idea, i'm still processing it :)
<knome> sure
<knome> you could still do that even if you didn't have an ISO, as long as each workflow was one task
<knome> and this is just an idea anyway - i'm not the one who will be taking care of that
<knome> (there's enough work with xubuntu ;))
<knome> but i thought i'd share the idea with you since it might lead you to a better place
<knome> maybe that can be a lighter ISO or sth
<sakrecoer> its highly appreciated knome :) i look forward to read zequence, OvenWerks and ross weight in on it :)
<knome> but ultimately i think now is the time to try to cut down the extra maintaining stuff
<knome> (all teams could do that tbh)
<sakrecoer> considering the size of the team (at least from a mailing-list/IRC POV) that is a very good point
<knome> the xubuntu team has always struggled with contributor amount too
<knome> lately, i think we've been able to achieve even better stuff by making thigns smoother
<sakrecoer> well, i think any volunteer based organisation strugle with that to some extend. at least when it comes to find regular and longterm contributors..
<knome> of course
<sakrecoer> i get the feeling you sort of cracked the desktop agnostic nut, but i might be blinded by lack of experience.
<knome> that's one possibility
<knome> the other possibility is what has been discussed before, eg. enabling the user to pick their DE during install time
<knome> but ultimately, that's just EVEN MORE work :)
<knome> because likely that would mean at least some config for each DE
<sakrecoer> yeah, and also it implies having internetconnection during install..
<knome> sure
<knome> (and yeah, more to maintain in the installer too)
<sakrecoer> i know it is getting common, internet in the air everywhere, but there are still MANY places where that is not a reality yet
<knome> yes
<sakrecoer> in a way, having an ISO makes ubuntustudio very inclusive.
<knome> and tbh, there are many cases where you might have an internet connection, but it's easier to not
<sakrecoer> :) yes
<knome> of course
<sakrecoer> but then again, having an iso kindof implies chosing a desktop
<knome> one way to potentially fight that would be to provide ISOs that act as repostiories
<knome> so basically just pull the packages into an ISO, no installer
<knome> in a similar way to how you can upgrade your system now
<knome> that could be workflow-based too, so you could download only the stuff you need
<sakrecoer> wouldn't that be equal to having several iso's? one for system install, one for extra repo?
<knome> the system installation iso could be the minimal ISO, eg. the general one
<knome> the rest of the ISOs would be just "repositories", not needing the same level of QA stuff at all
<knome> (and that is just if you want to support offline installs)
<sakrecoer> it is a good thing to reduce download volumes anyways. unfortunately, it looks like the ISP market is starting to rationalise badnwidth for the end-user (as in x$/month for 20gb/month)
<sakrecoer> i hope and wish we are not going there for landlines... but who know how long the land lines will be maintaned, looking at the desperate desires of ISP to make big$ by any mean necessary...
<sakrecoer> its another debate i guess, but still, smaller download: faster download
<zequence> sakrecoer_: knome: The idea of no ISOs is an old one. But, no matter the future, we will release 16.04
<knome> of course
<zequence> And, right now, it seems we have more interest, so I think it really depends on who wants to help out
<knome> it would be silly not to release an LTS which is coming next
<zequence> Yeah
<zequence> As long as someone is willing to work on the ISO stuff, I guess it will be around
<OvenWerks> http://linux-audio.4202.n7.nabble.com/Re-Updated-to-kernel-4-4-1-missing-module-snd-ice1712-gt-no-more-envy24-support-td98936.html#a98940
<OvenWerks> zequence: is this true?
<OvenWerks> if so zequence there are not many replacement cards... and the few that are around are not cheap. the ice1712 is a very common sound card still.
<zequence> OvenWerks: Didn't know about that
<zequence> I really don't follow kernel development much. 
<zequence> We can change that config for our kernel
<OvenWerks> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux/+bug/1534647
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1534647 in mudita24 (Ubuntu Xenial) "Collateral damage due to kernel configuration change enabling CONFIG_ZONE_DEVICE (Kernel 4.4 amd64)" [Undecided,New]
<zequence> I'll look into it
<OvenWerks> It looks like someone already has: "Given the mutual exclusivity of CONFIG_ZONE_DMA and CONFIG_ZONE_DEVICE, I've set CONFIG_ZONE_DMA=y for amd64 lowlatency and both i386 flavours ."
<OvenWerks> The ice1712 will only work with the lowlatency kernel.
<zequence> Yeah, that seems fine for us
<zequence> And, they are working on a generic solution
<OvenWerks> zequence: see comment 12
<OvenWerks> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux/+bug/1534647/comments/12
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1534647 in mudita24 (Ubuntu Xenial) "Collateral damage due to kernel configuration change enabling CONFIG_ZONE_DEVICE (Kernel 4.4 amd64)" [Undecided,New]
 * OvenWerks can't afford to spend $1k on a replacement PCIe sound card.
<knome> if you were a ubuntu member, you might be able to get that paid from the community fund
<knome> (just a tip)
<OvenWerks> knome: the ice1712 sound cards are still in wide use in the audio and amature radio community. There is really no replacement for these cards. It is not just me. Nor is it a fix to fix me and not everyone else.
<OvenWerks> Ubuntustudio is effectively broken without ice1712 support.
<OvenWerks> on the up side... there may appear a RT kernel that gets support as the low latency kernel gets far away enough from main line anyway.
<OvenWerks> knome: the USB "pro"audio cards have been troublesome and still do not get the performance of PCI(e) cards due to USB structure. USB2.0 audio support has been patchy from kernel to kernel as well.
<knome> OvenWerks, fair enough, but the comment still stands; there will be people with those other cards in the future
<OvenWerks> knome: true, from that perspective. AudioScience supports Linux pretty good as they cater to Broadcast where Linux use is a good segment of their business. RME maybe not so much. In truth, in the long run AoIP (aes67 or AVB), are the next thing.
<knome> that just flew kilometers over my head
<knome> so i'll just say
<knome> yep
<OvenWerks> :)
<OvenWerks> knome: audioscience and RME are the only people I know who make PCIe audio cards (actually there is one other in the broadcast end, but not as linux friendly), but MOTU, focusrite and presonus all have AVB products out now. AVB means plug the audio IF into your ethernet port... probably a PCIe card because the one on the MB is not good enough.
<knome> that was quite close to the first shot ;)
<knome> but yeah, i get it now
<knome> and while it links to existing network of thoughts... no, i still don't know what to do with that data
<knome> :)
<OvenWerks> knome: I am not sure I do either. I have gotten an Intel i210 ethernet card which has extra HW that allows audio sync over ethernet. Now to figure out the various bits to make it talk AVB.
<knome> mhm
<OvenWerks> knome: and it is (right now) just a collection of bits.
<knome> while i'm "not interested" about hardware (in the sense that as long as it works, i'm good with it), i think it's nice to see different components being used for multiple uses or at least innovative uses
<knome> another example that comes to my mind are those super small GPU-based computers
<knome> that can't do anything but good for the industry
<knome> (even if it might mean more work for linux developers making sure the hardware works as intended)
<OvenWerks> :)
<OvenWerks> in general GPU is good for Graphics and some desktop computing but is not low enough latency for audio.
<OvenWerks> (DSP)
<knome> sure
<knome> for my audio purposes, i'm fine as long as i can playback music :P
<knome> i kind of would like to be involved with creating some, but i just don't have enough time/motivation/skills
<OvenWerks> the real problem for audio is that the PC hardware developers lowlatency is 30ms which is fine for your purposes :)  and skype.
<knome> yep
<OvenWerks> The OSx hw is designed for audio latency down to 1ms or so, PC hw can get down there, but it takes a lot of tweaking.
<OvenWerks> (and being picky about what hw one buys in the first place)
<knome> yeah..
<knome> but linux-using people (know how to) do that already
<OvenWerks> knome has not spent time helping people who do not know about that at all. Linux has gotten to that "just works" stage for many things. Lowlatency audio is not one of them. Pro Audio is not one of them :)
<zequence> OvenWerks: Do you know a good solution for setting a default CPU governor?
<zequence> I'm looking at adding that to -controls
<OvenWerks> zequence: I would sugest looking through the Cadence code (also python I think).
<zequence> Alright
<OvenWerks> I used a small utility run from /usr/sbin that I set using pkexec to just run that would only change governor settings.
<OvenWerks> utility=script
<OvenWerks> I put a file in /usr/share/polkit-1/actions/ called net.ovenwerks.asmgov.policy that allowed amsgov to be run su with no passwd required.
<OvenWerks> we would change that to org.ubuntustudio.*  :)
<OvenWerks> zequence: check http://www.ovenwerks.net/paste/asmgov_policy for what is in that file. I think Cadence does a similar kind of thing.
<OvenWerks> zequence: see http://www.ovenwerks.net/paste/asmgov for what I did in the file it points to. The sys/nosys stuff is probrbaly of no interest as the commands have changed with the move to systemd I would imagine. I prefer to have cron off while recording... just in case because there are some things that still cause xruns. I am told that a real RT kernel does not have this problem.
<OvenWerks> zequence: while I am at it... 
<OvenWerks> zequence: this is autojack http://www.ovenwerks.net/paste/autojack as it stands.
<OvenWerks> In this form autojack looks for DEV device and starts it with jackdbus. It creates a jacksink/souce paclientwith the device name and connects them to system
<OvenWerks> then it bounces through all the other devices and connects them using zita-ajbridge and creates dev named pa-jack bridges for each of those as well and connects them.
<OvenWerks> If you wish to try it, it can be run from commandline after a fesh boot without harm. Do look at the system/DSP load with this running to see why I think this is a bad idea. Also note that this does only connect hw:devicename,0,0 It does not deal with hw:device,1 or whatever (though it would not be that hard) because of the same reason, it is not a good idea in my opinion.
<zequence> OvenWerks: Thanks. Yeah, the PA bridge is not optimal. And, things may become a bit too complicated this time for doing anything else than starting jack and the bridge
<zequence> I'll have a look at it
<OvenWerks> zequence: there is no reason the DEV, EXTRA_C and EXTRA_P can not be fully qualified audio devices hda,2,1 or whatever
<OvenWerks> zequence: in my asmgov_policy file I think the allow_gui">true< line is not needed. I can't remember if I had to have it in there because I was running it from a GUI or because I copied it from somewhere.
<OvenWerks> anyway, if we can run without it, that would be better.
<OvenWerks> it appears linux 4.4.0 kernel is not yet a part of ubuntustudio.
 * OvenWerks likes the new (if it stays) window decoration style
<OvenWerks> the "cutout" for the _ [] X icons at the top of the window makes it much easier to spot which window is in focus.
 * OvenWerks finds the idea that there will only ever be one full sized window on a screen anoying.
<OvenWerks> AcK! how do I turn the screen reader off????
<OvenWerks> Hmm, the screen reader works very well  :)  but there seems to be no off button.
<OvenWerks> I had to use kill to stop it.
 * OvenWerks is questioning the switch to libc5 for a LTS
<OvenWerks> So far things do seem to work though
<knome> probably better do it now than support old stuff for 5 years
<OvenWerks> knome: someone is doing a lot of work updating everything.
<knome> many people are doing a lot of work :)
<OvenWerks> but ya, I can see that too
<OvenWerks> knome: It seems there is a boot option to start with upstart still, is that remaining for release?
<knome> no idea
<OvenWerks> zequence: running 16.04 right now, up graded to 4.4.0-4-lowlatency and the fix seems to have taken.
<OvenWerks> mudita24 works fine.
<OvenWerks> zequence: however, qjackctl has trouble with the systray. I normally set qjackctl up to start in the systray... when I do that, A) the systray icon does not appear and and the menu is blank. B) if I save it that way and reboot then start qjackctl, the whole desktop stops working... the mouse moves, but hover or click do not work untill I kill qjackctl. This means the menu does not work and none of the apps do. But C-A-F1 does (thankfully
<OvenWerks> Bug #1546328
<ubottu> bug 1546328 in qjackctl (Ubuntu) "Systray option does not work." [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1546328
<OvenWerks> Anyone testing 16.04 version of Studio should check this and click on the this bug affects me too link.
<OvenWerks> (if you have the same problem.)
<OvenWerks> knome: have there been any other systray problems with xfce in 16.04?
 * OvenWerks thinks I had a similar problem in lubuntu... but wasn't sure if it was just the low memory used. (less than 256M ram)
<OvenWerks> This bug in Studio shows up with 8Gram so I guess it affects lubuntu too.
<knome> i haven't heard of anything very weird, but you should really talk with flocculant 
<flocculant> I read OvenWerks talking about that 20 mins ago - didn't strike any chords with me
<OvenWerks> flocculant: I wonder if qjackctl was built with qt5
<flocculant> not a clue :)
<OvenWerks> it has been buildable with 4 or 5 for a while now.
<flocculant> other than guessing it's something to do with jack - have no idea whatqjackctl is tbh
<OvenWerks> flocculant: the systray part has nothing to do with systray though. I was just wondering if systray had changed or Qjackctl.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2016-02-17
<OvenWerks> Ga, that looks wierd. Nothing to do with jack I think.
<OvenWerks> DLing 14.04 32 bit iso. 64bit seems to be passed already.
<Rosco2> OvenWerks: Excellent. There was a note on -release just before, that a new ISO will soon be spun up
<flocculant> for bcmwl - I'll be ignoring it 
<Rosco2> Contains bcmw fix apparently
<Rosco2> Yeah
<flocculant> think it was davmor and mac image problem 
<sakrecoer_> yo guys! :) ff -5 :)
<sakrecoer_> eventually, UTC, erm..
<sakrecoer_> i'm downloading the iso's and getting the testing going
<zequence> Usually these point releases are pretty straight forward, since we usually don't make any changes ourselves.
<zequence> So, I usually just make sure the ISO boots, generally
<zequence> As for the upcoming beta, really nice that we have application testing now
<OvenWerks> Anyone else check for Bug #1546328 on 16.04?
<ubottu> bug 1546328 in qjackctl (Ubuntu) "Systray option does not work." [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1546328
<zequence> OvenWerks: I noticed that. Haven't got around to see if that affects anything else
<OvenWerks> I would just like someone to confirm more than anyhing
<zequence> Confirmed
<sakrecoer_> OvenWerks: i'll subscribe to it.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2016-02-18
<sakrecoer_> i've been following the process for kdenlive and i get lost in the path debian=>ubuntu=>flavours
<sakrecoer_> i think i'm unclear on what this feature freeze means. 
<sakrecoer_> hm.. the wiki is weird today
<sakrecoer_> i seem to have lost editing priviledges...
<sakrecoer_> probably some maintainances got some werid error messages
<flocculant> sakrecoer_: page? 
<flocculant> it was all read only yesterday - should be ok now afaik
<sakrecoer_> well, i'm struggling finding a page i can edit at all :D 
<sakrecoer_> flocculant: so all pages :D
<flocculant> oh right - well ctrl+r or f5 or whatever :)
<sakrecoer_> i should have in https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/Documentation at least...
<flocculant> oh god
<sakrecoer_> well.. i tried that, yes, but... not working
<flocculant> it's all immutable again
<sakrecoer_> seems so.. 
<flocculant> asked in sysyadmin channel - should be normal *soon*
<sakrecoer_> :)
<sakrecoer_> thanks flocculant 
<sakrecoer_> \o/ flocculant 
<sakrecoer_> back to normal
<zequence> Zak har ju varit art lead och har gjort ett vÃ¤ldigt fint jobb med design osv. Men, han Ã¤r lite speciell, alltsÃ¥
<zequence> Oops
<knome> zequence, on other news, did you check the website updates yet?
<zequence> knome: No, I haven't. I will probably not do that so much until some time after FF
<zequence> But, I will come back to it. We are working on a unified design for our artwork, so some of that will be implemented there, I'm sure
<knome> fair enough
<knome> i've got interest from other teams and people now too, and they seem to be happy with it (so not so many bugs at this point)
<knome> i hope to get this moving forward this month
<zequence> ok, sounds good
<zequence> I'm pretty happy with the latest version I tried, so should be fine
<knome> yep, good
<knome> and pushing the theme to production does not mean it can't get any updates; it just means it will be considerably slower
<Rosco3> OvenWerks: Thanks for giving 386 a spin. That saved me some time
<Rosco3> I have marked the ISOs for studio as ready after a quick smoke test on amd64
<sakrecoer_> knome: I realy like the look so far! what i'm concerned about is the feature tour
<sakrecoer_> knome: blogroll in wikiformat is good for documentation and news, but if it is possible to break out of the format for the feature-tour, i think it would be very sweet
<sakrecoer_> maybe the feature tour could be subdomain: xenial.ubuntustudio.org which lands on feature tour and leadsback to ubuntustdio.org
<sakrecoer_> i'm just spinning ideas
<knome> i'm not sure i know how to help you; i don't know what you are looking for from the feature tour, so i can't support doing that
<sakrecoer_> with a subdomain we can have static html5 site for displaying sexy creative suit
<sakrecoer_> ..without bothering our good wordpress engine with funky modules
<knome> sure, if you want to maintain that subdomain separately
<knome> remember, if it's within canonical hosting, all file changes go through IS
<sakrecoer_> knome: then the "feature-tour" link on frontpage would only need to be updated for current release subdomain.
<sakrecoer_> knome: mini html sites are easy to back up also
<knome> i'm not disagreeing
<knome> if you want something completely different, it's likely best to do so
<sakrecoer_> knome: right, through IS, that would imply submiting request in good time
<knome> yes
<sakrecoer_> you are more experienced in me with the time-frames :) knome, what do you reckon? is it making things easier or more complicated?
<sakrecoer_> knome: perhaps you have a module-magic ace in your sleave, designed for sexy feature tour? :)
<knome> whenever you bring in another person/team that is responsible for anything, it's always more prone for errors and slows the progress down (not only with IS)
<sakrecoer_> not that the website is not sexy, missunderstand me right
<knome> again, it really depends what you are looking for
<knome> i can support *some* features from within the theme reasonably
<knome> outside that, you'll likely want to set up something else, whether it was a minisite outside wordpress or something different
<knome> i mean i don't think it's very sensible to try to fit something very dynamic in nature into a wordpress plugin
<knome> (or theme)
<knome> too much modularity means the plugin/theme will just get bloated and doesn't really serve any purpose well
<sakrecoer_> that is why html5 minisites are great
<knome> the aim of the theme i'm building is to offer an easy way to get a good-looking theme with an integrated look set up
<knome> sure, but then it means you will need to edit the files anyway
<knome> whether it was somehow from within wordpress or directly
<sakrecoer_> not if it is not ment to be edited
<knome> IS won't allow forms which directly allow you to edit files on the filesystem
<sakrecoer_> i'm talking about the feature tour
<knome> me too
<sakrecoer_> yeah, but i'm not talking about editing them
<sakrecoer_> i'm talking about having a static site
<knome> i'm talking about editing them in the sense that when you create anything, it's editing
<knome> and tbh, you *will* end up wanting changes to your static site
<knome> trust me
<knome> so you want to account for that
<knome> or you can get a server set up somewhere else and ask IS to point a subdomain there
<sakrecoer_> i understand :)
<knome> they can do that too
<sakrecoer_> oh..
<knome> but then you're obviously responsible for maintaining that server
<sakrecoer_> hehe
<knome> we have several xubuntu.org subdomains pointed at a server we set up some time ago
<sakrecoer_> hm, i have to ask my budy, but i might be able to host such thing for a few years
<sakrecoer_> i'll have to think about this
<sakrecoer_> thanks for informing me knome 
<knome> no problem
<knome> generally, the IS is willing to do "anything" for you; as long as you don't ask for silly things
<sakrecoer_> cool
<knome> and some requests might take time
<knome> but subdomain redirection isn't a problem
<sakrecoer_> :) but hosting it longterm is :)
<sakrecoer_> unless of course, we go thou IS each time
<sakrecoer_> but that, like you say imply slower process, and reduce editing possibility to ~0
<sakrecoer_> hehe, so it would be publishing a website, like publishing a newspaper: better not have a typo, cuz there ain't no undo
<knome> pretty much so
<knome> that's why putting the content within wordpress makes sense
<knome> because at least you have control over the content
<knome> one thing we also do, which you might be interested of or not
<knome> on the main website, we link to a css file that is on the subdomain we control ourself
<knome> which means we have access to fix critical CSS issues when we need
<knome> and do some other updates
<knome> of course we then try to push them to the main server ASAP, but this leaves us some breathing space
<knome> MAYBE with something like that you could almost set up the minisites even with wordpress as the backend
<sakrecoer_> knome: interesting
<sakrecoer_> knome: altho i'm open to work with the wordpress, magic can be made with images
<sakrecoer_> how would you go about for a feature tour on this wordpress theme?
<sakrecoer_> obviously there would be a post about the features,
<knome> currently, it supports no thrills
<knome> so you would have to tell me what you are looking for
<sakrecoer_> i'm thinking about site like these: http://ardour.org/
<sakrecoer_> this one is funy (music on pageload, music is funy) http://cinelerra.org/2015/
<sakrecoer_> ardour is way simpler, perhaps that is possible to achive in a wordpress post
<sakrecoer_> displaying only the post, and have it nicely layed out with good pictures
<knome> on the ardour site, there's nothing you can't do with the theme except the sections that have a different color background that spans to the edge of the page
<knome> ...though you can modify the theme to allow to do that
<knome> the cinelerra site just looks weird to me
<knome> they did parallax scrolling, which would be hard to do within a wordpress theme that didn't specifically support that
<knome> bbl
<sakrecoer_> ok :)
<sakrecoer_> knome: i'm thinking more fullframe imagery, Title fonts and flash rubricus. website-content gets to background. in the feature tour the main menu is about the feature, the rest of the space is for sexy feature display
<sakrecoer_> fullframe image with sweet titling, minimal but effective i think
<OvenWerks> sakrecoer_: remember also that xubuntu has more people helping to begin with. (it doesn't take many people to make it double)
#ubuntustudio-devel 2016-02-19
<sakrecoer_> OvenWerks: "remember also that xubuntu has more people helping" ... as in re: website? i'm aware of that but i'm not sure what you want to say..
<OvenWerks> sakrecoer_: Just that xubuntu can afford to have a web site that requires more time input because they have the input to give. (with more people) We need to be careful not to bite off work than we can handle.
<knome> it helps that the person requesting changes is the same person to implement them too :)
#ubuntustudio-devel 2016-02-20
<sakrecoer_> cfhowlett: knome: i understand. i'll experiment a little with the the sandbox on zequence server see what sexyness we can achieve with what is :) 
<sakrecoer_> i was thinking about creating a jekyll template matching knome's template, just for depoloying feature-showcase. but given the publication (aka uploadrights and comapny) it is too complicated
<sakrecoer_> too complicated to use, not to create template.
<sakrecoer_> i'm not sure i'm ready to take the traffic and the responsability that comes with it using a subdomain
<sakrecoer_> so i wont even ask my IProv. he sure has other fish to fry
<sakrecoer_> now that rhe 14.04.4 is in releases at http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/ubuntustudio/releases/ shoulnd't we update the website?
<cfhowlett> yep
<zequence> sakrecoer_: Yes, you are right. A few links need to be updated there, and an announcement would be good too
<OvenWerks> zequence: people are looking for the download button on our web page to point to 14.04.4 instead of .3
<OvenWerks> zequence: Oh you are already talking about that ... :)  sorry.
<zequence> Ok, all updated
<zequence> Not doing an announcement. Not that big of a deal, but if someone wants to, be my guest
#ubuntustudio-devel 2017-02-14
<krytarik> I'm here, if anyone wants to have a little meeting chat. :P
<OvenWerks> krytarik: I thought we cancelled this one at last one...
<krytarik> We didn't - but I guess it doesn't matter much anyway.
<OvenWerks> krytarik: maybe it was just someone saying they would not be here
<krytarik> It was - eylul.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2017-02-16
<OvenWerks> so why is ardour so far behind?
<krytarik> !info ardour unstable
<ubottu> ardour (source: ardour (1:5.5.0~dfsg-1)): the digital audio workstation. In component main, is extra. Version 1:5.5.0~dfsg-1+b1 (unstable), package size 8582 kB, installed size 33239 kB
<krytarik> !info ardour
<ubottu> ardour (source: ardour): the digital audio workstation. In component universe, is optional. Version 1:5.0~dfsg-2 (zesty), package size 7945 kB, installed size 30671 kB
<krytarik> Good question.
<krytarik> !info ardour zesty-proposed
<ubottu> ardour (source: ardour): the digital audio workstation. In component universe, is optional. Version 1:5.5.0~dfsg-1 (zesty-proposed), package size 8495 kB, installed size 33363 kB
<krytarik> ardour-video-timeline/amd64 unsatisfiable Depends: xjadeo (>= 0.6.4)
<krytarik> !info xjadeo
<ubottu> xjadeo (source: xjadeo): Video player with JACK sync. In component multiverse, is optional. Version 0.8.7-2 (zesty), package size 185 kB, installed size 469 kB
<OvenWerks> it appears ardour has been held up because xjadeo in ubuntu is out of date
<OvenWerks> opps
<OvenWerks> even in 16.04 xjadeo is 0.8.5
<krytarik> LP bug 1639409.
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1639409 in xjadeo (Ubuntu) "Please move xjadeo to universe" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1639409
<krytarik> So that's why.
<OvenWerks> * transcode does not exist
<krytarik> !info transcode
<ubottu> transcode (source: transcode): Text console video-stream processing tool. In component multiverse, is optional. Version 3:1.1.7-9ubuntu1 (zesty), package size 795 kB, installed size 4324 kB
<OvenWerks> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/transcode/+bug/1631796 seems to indicate transcode is fixed as of dec 7
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1631796 in transcode (Ubuntu Yakkety) "Yakkety version of transcode needed (removal causes unmet dependencies)" [Undecided,Fix released]
<OvenWerks> transcode should not affect xjadeo anyway as it is only a recomend anyway.
<krytarik> And it was uploaded to Zesty earlier already.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2017-02-17
<krytarik> Updated the download page to refer to 16.04.2 now.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2019-02-11
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: Added Carla to -menu. tsimonq2: not sure if you've uploaded that one yet or not.
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: sure when it gets installed it will show. I may end up in a reasonable place anyway
<OvenWerks> There are some defaults in there
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: I threw it into Audio Procution, Effects, and Utilities.
<Eickmeyer> *Production
<OvenWerks> OK.
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks, tsimonq2: Just pushed a fix to -look for some issues related to installing the plymouth theme. There were tabs in command lines that shouldn't have been there, causing the plymouth theme to not register. Not sure if it was me originally or not, but it's fixed now.
<tsimonq2> ack
#ubuntustudio-devel 2019-02-13
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: I made a new plymouth theme based on Lubuntu's since their blue most closely matches ours.
<Eickmeyer> Coming your way soon.
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: Just confirmed it works. Let me know what you think.
<Eickmeyer> Easy to roll-back if needed.
<krytarik> Eickmeyer: "Forked from lubuntustudio-logo" - pahaha! :D
<Eickmeyer> krytarik: Is that in the committ???? 
<krytarik> Yuuup! - https://git.launchpad.net/ubuntustudio-look/diff/usr/share/plymouth/themes/ubuntustudio-logo/ubuntustudio-logo.script?id=afad3d5d85dcf8d247edbf920d641c97ebeed586
<Eickmeyer> grumble grumble... *fixes code*
<Eickmeyer> krytarik: Just pushed a "fix" the the comment. :P
<Eickmeyer> tsimonq2 would get a kick out of that.
<krytarik> Yep, I'm sure of that too. :P
<tsimonq2> Lubuntu Studio, heh.
<Eickmeyer> tsimonq2: Well, take a Lubuntu install, install ubuntustudio-installer, run it, ???, profit! Lubuntu Studio! XD
<studiobot> <tsimonq2> Haha
<Eickmeyer> tsimonq2: Are you super busy with feature freeze stuff or can I bug you to sponsor a package?
<studiobot> <tsimonq2> Go ahead
<Eickmeyer> http://launchpad.net/carla
<studiobot> <Eickmeyer> I've been working very closely with upstream on this one.
<studiobot> <tsimonq2> Sure
<studiobot> <Eickmeyer> @tsimonq2 [Sure], Let me know if you run into any issues, or when you're done so that we can get it into the seed.
<studiobot> <tsimonq2> Ok
#ubuntustudio-devel 2019-02-14
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: Have you tried the new plymouth theme yet?
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: I haven't rebooted in... " 07:33:21 up 21 days, 10:52,"
<Eickmeyer> Install plymouth-x11," sudo -i", "plymouthd", "plymouth --show-splash; xkill" click when done.
<Eickmeyer> Then, probably a good idea to "killall plymouthd" after that.
 * Eickmeyer goes to unbury his truck from the snow
#ubuntustudio-devel 2019-02-16
<studiobot> <Eickmeyer> @tsimonq2 That package I asked you to sponsor? Don't know if you've looked at it yet (wasn't feature freeze supposed to be yesterday?), but I just got done cleaning up a dependency and build issue or two that I just discovered. Should be good now.
<studiobot> <tsimonq2> @Eickmeyer [@tsimonq2 That package I asked you to sponsor? Don't know if you've looked at it â¦], Feature Freeze is next Thursday
<studiobot> <Eickmeyer> Ohhhhh... *whew*
<studiobot> <tsimonq2> I haven't gotten a chance to look yet, sorry
<studiobot> <Eickmeyer> No worries, if that's the case.
 * Eickmeyer crawls back into his snow cave
#ubuntustudio-devel 2019-02-17
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: grub screen ok, plymouth theme ok.... miss tape reel, but.... who uses tape any more? It would be nice if each of the dots could be a workflow, A video camera, paint brush, sound wave.... a bomb ;) Oh where did that come from???
<studiobot> <Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: Kaboom.
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer:  anyway I will have to try again. It did do something odd (booted twice) and put a black box in the middle
<studiobot> <Eickmeyer> The black box is, unfortunately, Grub showing a console when nothing is to be displayed.
<OvenWerks> Ah.
<OvenWerks> Anyway, Off to bed
<studiobot> <Eickmeyer> Night! :)
<studiobot> azbulutlu was added by: azbulutlu
#ubuntustudio-devel 2020-02-11
<Eickmeyer[m]> OvenWerks: Are you ok?
#ubuntustudio-devel 2020-02-12
<jlosito> any reason why ubuntustudio.org doesn't have tls enabled?
<Eickmeyer[m]> jlosito: We have no control over that. That's 100% Canonical's infrastructure.
<Eickmeyer[m]> If you manually go to https://ubuntustudio.org, it works. It just doesn't redirect.
<Eickmeyer[m]> jlosito: Nobody working on Ubuntu Studio is a Canonical employee.
<jlosito> ah. i found the server. okay. tls should be up in a bit
<Eickmeyer> jlosito: Are you with IS?
<jlosito> yes
<Eickmeyer> Ohhhhh.... didn't know. Sorry to  jump on you like that, I thought you were a user telling us to fix something we can't fix (happens a lot).
<Eickmeyer> jlosito: Probably just had to put the redirect in .htaccess, iirc.
<jlosito> no worries. i really gave no context
<jlosito> Eickmeyer, i created a ticket for us to look into the errors the site is currently throwing
<jlosito> plus the no redirect 80 -> 443
<Eickmeyer> jlosito: Yikes. Yeah, that's not good.
<Eickmeyer> And thanks!
