#ubuntu-mobile 2007-05-28
<tkomulai> jabber irc transports are weird...
#ubuntu-mobile 2007-05-29
(Mithrandir/#ubuntu-mobile) agoliveira: hiya; I started on hildon-desktop this morning.  It's slowly getting there now.
(Mithrandir/#ubuntu-mobile) agoliveira: also, your mce-dummy branch seems to not have any commits in it, do you have any idea what's up with that?
<agoliveira> Mithrandir: I think I made a mistake with this one, I was about to ask you btw. I started it but I figured out later that there is a mce-dev in the gutsy repository already.
(Mithrandir/#ubuntu-mobile) yes, there is
<agoliveira> Mithrandir: They are actualloy the same. What to do in that case?
(Mithrandir/#ubuntu-mobile) agoliveira: I'd fix up the branch so it's in a sane state, then just move on
<agoliveira> agoliveira: Fine. Thanks.
<agoliveira> Mithrandir: Fine. Thanks.
<agoliveira> Mithrandir:BTW, I'm working on hildom-fw.
<agoliveira> I mean fm.
(Mithrandir/#ubuntu-mobile) you've seen the branch in LP?
(Mithrandir/#ubuntu-mobile) also, we might be able to revert most of my hacks from it; seb's agreed to take the patch posted to the mailing list with the minimal set of changes we need for gtk
<agoliveira> Mithrandir: Hmmm... now you got me. So should I jump it for now?
(Mithrandir/#ubuntu-mobile) yes, just skip it for now
(Mithrandir/#ubuntu-mobile) if you could grab osso-af-settings that'd be good
<agoliveira> Mithrandir: Righto!
<mdz> agoliveira: I just synced in mce-dev from maemo directly, since it was trivial and didn't require modification
<mdz> it's pretty much just two .h files
<agoliveira> mdz: Yes, it's just that.
<Mithrandir> yay, hildon-help compiles now.
<agoliveira> Mithrandir: I believe we can safelly ignore osso-af-utils, osso-af-startup and osso-app-killer for now. They are specific to booting and organize the Nokia devices. There is one dependency for osso-af-startup in hildon-application-framework but I'll deal with it when the time arrives as I guess I'll have to bypass, addapt or mock-up the app start procedure anyway.
<agoliveira> Mithrandir: Cool :)
<Mithrandir> move them to ignore on the todo list, then?
<agoliveira> Sure do.
<Mithrandir> ok, libhildonhelp should really be good now.
<Mithrandir> I'll update the todo, then go home
<agoliveira> Mithrandir: Nice. I'm checking out hildon-control-panel. It should be going to hildon-1 but it's not even into the trunk yet.
<Mithrandir> ok
<Mithrandir> did you get anywhere with osso-af-settings?
<agoliveira> It compiled just the way it is. No changes required.
<Mithrandir> ah, you said.  Goodie
<Mithrandir> I'll get to it tomorrow.
<agoliveira> Cool. Have a nice evening.
<mdz> Mithrandir,adilson-lunch: do the intel guys ever come by the channel here
<mdz> ?
<Mithrandir> mdz: I've seen them on-channel, but they don't speak much
<adilson> mdz: They hang out more often over the ML. I don't remember anyone around here.
<mdz> Mithrandir: did rusty send you his image builder yet?
<Mithrandir> no.
<Mithrandir> I'll note it down and prod him about it.
<mdz> thanks
<edmondt> looks like a tight deadline for ubuntu mobile
<adilson> edmondt: Yes, it is but we believe that it's feasible.
<edmondt> I would be great tho... support for smart phones, synchronization with evolution
<Mithrandir> it won't be able to both sing, dance and make coffee at first go, but two out of three should be doable.
<lucasr> hei
<Mithrandir> hiya lucas
<lucasr> Mithrandir, hei :-)
<seb128> hey lucasr
<adilson> edmondt: Right now we want to create a common and stable base that allows applications to do the the stuff you're talking about to be built.
<adilson> lucasr: Oi Lucas.
<Mithrandir> apparently, the eds-sync bits were just opened up from Nokia
<Mithrandir> so we'd want to pull that in too
<lucasr> Mithrandir, cool
<lucasr> Mithrandir, very nice piece of software
<lucasr> adilson, oi!
<lucasr> seb128, yo!
<Mithrandir> and I had a chat with pvanhof earlier today, he seemed interested in getting modest or something tinymail-based into ubuntu mobile
<lucasr> Mithrandir, I would try to use modest
<lucasr> Mithrandir, it will be already integrated with Hildon
<lucasr> Mithrandir, integrated = use Hildon
<Mithrandir> yup
<Mithrandir> that was my thought too.
<lucasr> Mithrandir, let me know if you need any help with this. I can talk to Modest developers if needed
<lucasr> Mithrandir, they are only a few meters from me :-P
<Mithrandir> great. :-)  It'll certainly be interesting once we have hildon-desktop up and running here.-
<Mithrandir> s/-$//
<Mithrandir> until we have a basic hildon UI, trying to get apps running is a bit insane.
<tko> lucasr: btw, why is control panel trunk still not using hildon-1?
<lucasr> tko, because the new code is not in trunk yet :-)
<lucasr> tko, https://stage.maemo.org/svn/maemo/projects/haf/branches/hildon-control-panel/refactoring/
<lucasr> tko, I need to merge this thing :-P
<lucasr> in trunk
<Mithrandir> lucasr: are you a good person to feed our changes to the packaging?
<Mithrandir> or should we talk to somebody else?
<lucasr> Mithrandir, depends on the package
<lucasr> Mithrandir, but if it simplifies to you, you can send me and I forward to the correct person
<lucasr> Mithrandir, or tko or fer
<lucasr> :-)
<Mithrandir> ok
<Mithrandir> do you want it by email or is being hassled on IRC good enough?
<lucasr> hmm, I can't access irc at work
<Mithrandir> ok
<Mithrandir> so email then
<lucasr> Mithrandir, email me
<lucasr> Mithrandir, there's this firewall there
<lucasr> :-/
<tko> I think the @nokia person in the maintainer field should be able to handle them.. or use bugzilla?
* Mithrandir nods
<lucasr> tko, yep
<lucasr> tko, it's just that *maybe* the maintainer could possibly not be interested in ubuntu mobile stuff and just ignore it
<lucasr> :-P
<Mithrandir> lucasr: especially when it's fixes like "makes this compile on amd64".
<tko> lucasr: true.. thus bugzilla :)
<lucasr> tko, Mithrandir, and add us to CC maybe?
<Mithrandir> ok
<Mithrandir> I'm fine with more or less any workflow, but I'd like there to be a workflow which eases our work since we'll have less of a delta to maintain and gives you fixes you can apply easily.
<lucasr> Mithrandir, ok
<lucasr> Mithrandir, I guess things will get simpler when we move to gnome infra
<tko> I've been considering setting a git mirror of your bzr mirror of our svn for tracking :)
<tko> (I already run git-svn on our svn)
<tko> too bad git-bzr doesn't exist atm :-(
<lucasr> ok, gotta go
<Mithrandir> tko: it's called "tailor"
<lucasr> night all!
<Mithrandir> night, Lucas
<landley> mdz: got your email. :)
<landley> So I've been pondering bootstrapping Ubuntu on non-x86 platforms for a while.
<landley> I spent a largeish chunk of last year making a bootstrapping environment thing (Firmware Linux), which cross compiles a minimal native build environment for various platforms, allowing you to build packages natively under an emulator (usually qemu).
<landley> I got it mostly to the point where I could then bootstrap a distro.
<landley> I was initially looking at gentoo, but most of the users I talked to wanted debian or ubuntu...
* Mithrandir waves at landley
#ubuntu-mobile 2007-05-30
<Mithrandir> you seem to be doing some quite interesting stuff with mobile and embedded.
<Mithrandir> I'd love to have a chat with you when it's not 00:33 in my local timezone.
<landley> Mithrandir: Thanks.  I'll add this channel to my auto-join list, but there's no guarantees about when I'm on. :)
<landley> So I take it all the embedded devices of interest to Ubuntu are x86, due to Intel's sponsorship?
<landley> I've been pondering buying a Nokia 800 to have something more portable than my laptop.  That's arm based...
<landley> I've also got little systems bootstrapped under qemu for x86, x86-64, two arm variants, mips, and a couple others that don't work right (sparc and ppc).
<landley> Reading the preliminary roadmap in the wiki, you mention kernel and applications, but nothing about C library.  Are you planning to use uClibc?
<landley> It seems to jump straight from "kernel" to "ui"...
<pkl_> landley: the general idea (at least the last time I looked), was to make user-space use mainy desktop stuff, i.e. Glibc etc.
<landley> So not a _very_ embedded ubuntu, then. :)
<landley> More an ubuntu with a low-resolution display and strange input devices.
<pkl_> coming from what would probably be considered a deeply embedded background (busybox, toybox, Firmware Linux), no.
<landley> My perspective is a bit warped. :)
<landley> But compared to the commodore 64...
<landley> (Uphill!  Both ways!)
<landley> Modern programming is to the old 8-bit systems what novel writing is to haiku. 
<landley> Then again, what attracted me to busybox and uClibc in the first place was I thought that Knoppix should be using them.
<landley> Not that I was particularly interested in reprogramming my cell phone.
<pkl_> I'm from an deeply embedded backgound (Squashfs, Linux on digital TVs), and I get the impression the mobile work definately isn't interested in going that embedded.
<pkl_> I started out on a Commodore Pet, Dragon 32, and Zx Spectrums :)
<pkl_> In those days, you'd expect to fit an entire Basic interpreter in 8K...
<pkl_> 8K is now too small even for a buffer in the typical desktop application.  Times change.
<landley> If a "typical desktop application" is Gnome, I don't want to have anything to do with it. :(
<landley> Ubuntu may not be interested in going that embedded, but embedded developers are interested in using ubuntu.
<pkl_> As more than a build system I suppose :)  What advantages does using Ubuntu have in comparison to a purpose built embedded system (like Firmware Linux, OpenEmbedded, emdebian etc.) ?
<landley> Time to market, of course. :)
<landley> linuxdevices.com does a survey every year, lemme see if I can find  this year's...
<landley> http://www.linuxdevices.com/news/NS5319577519.html
<pkl_> But most of the embedded systems can build a rootfs immediately from download, and they're easily customisable.
<landley> Lots of people out there want to build a root filesystem for their target platform out of packages.
<landley> So they need a distro that provides packages and dependencies.
<landley> Timesys was using Fedora for this, which is a HORRIBLE starting point, but they got lots of customers.
<pkl_> But it goes back to the 'how embedded is embedded issue'.  Ubuntu as it stands wouldn't fix on many embedded  systems, and the extra flash needed would be considered too expensive.
<landley> Sorry, better link: http://www.linuxdevices.com/articles/AT7065740528.html
<landley> If you go to the bottom of that, notice the last chart, "commercial embedded linux sourcing history".
<landley> Sigh, I mean the one above it.
<landley> (Doing too many things at once...)
<landley> "Embedded Linux OS sourcing trends".
<landley> Ubuntu is 8% of the market and climbing.
<landley> Fourth largest source after kernel.org, debian, and uClinux (which is for nommu systems only).
<landley> And "debian" is often just another way of saying "ubuntu" for some people...
<landley> pkl: there are two ways to make an embedded system.
<landley> 1) Start from an empty directory and work your way up.
<pkl_> one is build up, the other is to cut down.  I've done both.
<landley> Linux From Scratch derivatives rule that roost.
<landley> Yup, cut down is the other.  And that starts with a distro.
<landley> In that, you start with functionality being easy to get, and then cut it down tothe size you need.
<landley> The _hard_ parts of the cut down approach are that some basic components are hard to substitute.
<pkl_> I built a distro from scratch about 7 years ago, and again two years later.  I unfortunately, had to cut down a Fedora Core 5 to a single install CD.  Painful.
<landley> I.E. you're stuck with glibc unless you really know what you're doing.
<landley> Fedora's horrible.
<landley> I've given up on it.
<landley> It's nothing more than the modern Rawhide for Red Hat Enterprise.
<landley> It stopped even pretending to be anything else when they abandoned the foundation.
<pkl_> Yeah, since moving over to Ubuntu, I've not followed Fedora that much.
<landley> Common observation. :)
<landley> Lots of developers who use fedora as their development system want to deploy with it too.
<landley> Lots of embedded development projects have two teams.
<pkl_> Yes, I can understand the rationale, it means only one distro to learn.
<landley> Sort of "hardware and software" but in reality hardware+OS and application.
<landley> The application people build the app on an x86 linux distro and then port it to the target once the target's ready.
<landley> The target guys get hardware working and a distro on it.
<landley> Minimizing the gap between the two leads to people trying to get a subset of the desktop distro running on the target.
<landley> Not always, but often enough for there to be a market for people trying to make this suck less. :)
<landley> pkl_: you might want to read this, too: http://linuxdevices.com/articles/AT5036152029.html
<landley> Although personally I wouldn't touch raw debian any more than I'd want to touch raw plutonium.
<pkl_> Yes, I have noticed the progression from rolling your own distro, to using an off the shelf embedded distro (i.,e. Montavista) to using a cut down desktop distro.  My embedded Linux experience has followed this.
<landley> Debian is like fire, or nuclear power.  A potent force for good or evil, and you don't want to get any of it on you.
<landley> Part of it is that if you stay in the same embedded niche, hardware gets more powerful and you have more resources to work with.
<pkl_> I left 'deeply embedded' work a couple of years ago, and the tendency to use desktop Linux has obviously increased.
<landley> My cell phone has at least 64 megs of ram and a 200mhz+ processor these days.
<landley> But embedded continues to go down.
<landley> Ten years from now boxes of "captain crunch" will have a printed display on the front that changes every 30 seconds.
<landley> It'll have 25 cents worth of hardware run off a watch battery in the corner.
<landley> Disposable hardware.
<landley> It's only a matter of time.
<landley> And between the cost of the hardware and the need to run for 6 months off of a cheap battery, it'll have as little processor, flash, and memory as it can get away with.
<landley> And moore's law will probably hit atomic limits before that grows as powerful as my laptop.
<pkl_> yeah that's the expected logical progression.  Green issues may affect this (in Europe there's already an emphasis on properly recycling all rubbish, this will be made more difficult with embedded devices etc.).
<landley> So it'll need an environmentally friendly battery.
<landley> Probably a fuel cell.
<landley> And the amount of circuitry in it will have to fit on a pinhead so nobody can complain about heavy metals leaching into the ground water.
<pkl_> Er, it has gone 1 am here, and so I need to go to bed :)
<landley> Quick question:
<landley> If I want to build ubuntu entirely from source, where do I start?
<pkl_> OK :)
<landley> (Never having done this before with Debian...)
<landley> Is there a web page on it?
<pkl_> Hmm, that's a good question.  Most of the packages are built automatically using build machines.  I'm not sure if there's the infrastucture in place to download all the source, and build it locally.  I've never tried, but I'll try and find out.
<landley> If you find out how, please let me know.
<landley> Good night.
!LoRez:*! Obviously one of our larger servers has spaced out.  We're looking at it.  Thanks for flying freenode
!dmwaters:*! Hi all, we finally got into the rotation server with problems to kill it. Things should stabelize now.
<heno> Mithrandir: I set you as approver on https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/mobile-onscreen-keyboard Will you get a chance to look before the spec deadline?
<Mithrandir> heno: yes.
<fcarvalho> for fun: http://www.google.com/patents?id=oOsGAAAAEBAJ&printsec=abstract&zoom=4&dq=internet+tablet#PPP1,M1
<Mithrandir> we had similar prototypes to that at Opera before the filing date at least.
<Mithrandir> so I'd not be surprised if that patent is invalid due to prior art.
<mdz> seb128: you're on the mobile mailing list, yes?
<seb128> mdz: yes
<mdz> seb128: ok, just looking for some clarity about what we're going to do with gtk
<seb128> do we have a list of changes we would need somewhere?
<seb128> I'm building an update with the GtkFileChooser exports to allow hildon using its custom widget
<seb128> the tap and hold patch will not be as easy though
<Mithrandir> seb128: http://maemo.org/community/wiki/MaemoGtk210Changes
<Mithrandir> that is the full list of changes wrt gtk 2.10, but I think we should be able to get by without some of them
<seb128> right, my question was rather "which ones do we really need"
<agoliveira> seb128: That's hard to say but I would go for the more high level ones like flie selection, and leave things like entry completion aside if it's all possible.
<mdz> seb128: it's hard to say whether we'll need tap and hold; it depends on how the UI is designed
<mdz> seb128: if it's important to know, then it might be good to raise that question on the list
<seb128> it's rather going the other way around, we need to figure what GTK+ changes are required for Ubuntu Mobile so we start at looking how to get them
<seb128> tap and hold is tricky because there is maemo patch and an another variant being worked upstream
<Mithrandir> I believe maemo wants to move towards what upstream and I'd like to help them do that.
<seb128> it's not sure tha changes will make it for GTK 2.12 though, and upstream is not sure yet they will use the new GTK for GNOME 2.20
<Mithrandir> is there anything useful we can do to help in that regard?
<seb128> not really, I've planned to package GTK 2.11.0 (which is available for a few days now) and put it on my people page for those who want to test
<seb128> their problem is rather a lack of maintainers manpower than a lack of testes though
<seb128> testers
<seb128> not a lot we can do to help on that :/
<mdz> seb128: that's what I mean: ask on the list whether the UI will need tap-and-hold
<mdz> the people working on it are on the list
<seb128> right
<seb128> I'll mail the list today about it
<agoliveira> mdz: I remember that Bob Spencer (Intel) was quite specific about tap-and-hold.
<heno> seb128: can the mouse-tweaks work provide the tap-and-hold functionality in your opinion? (https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Accessibility/Specs/MouseTweaks)
<heno> it uses the xorg test extension and xevie
<agoliveira> Can I be notified by email everytime MobileAndEmbedded/TODO is changed?
<Mithrandir> sure, just subscribe to it
<agoliveira> Mithrandir: Ouch... I think I didn't speel well tonight :) Thanks.
<agoliveira> s/speel/sleep - see?
<Mithrandir> heno: what is "dwell clicking"?
* heno on the phone
<agoliveira> Mithrandir:"Click and hold the left mouse button to simulate clicking the right mouse button. Holding the left button for n seconds without moving the cursor more than x pixels initiates a right click+hold. Releasing the left button also releases the simulated right hold. Useful in using the context menu with only one mouse button."
<agoliveira> Dah
<agoliveira> Sorry
<agoliveira> Wrong window
<heno> Mithrandir: it means hovering over an area for a certain amount of time to trigger a click
<heno> mainly for people who cannot click the mouse
<tko> Mithrandir: yes, we'll want to move to upstream version of tap'n'hold when it's ready enough
<tko> however, for us it's an annoyingly tricky situation due to API/ABI break as I don't see us being able to support both variants at the same time
<tko> but as far as hildon goes, I'd think we can live with a little bit of #ifdef soup for a while
<seb128> heno: not sure if mousetweak would do the trick, maemo GTK has a patch for that, I think we should rather try using it
<heno> seb128: sure. It's a natural part of a mobile framework of course. Are there plans for doing right-click, or is that just not used?
<seb128> tap and hold has a "call a callback after a delay"
<seb128> which means you can open a menu by maintaining the click
<seb128> I don't think an another "right-click" menu would make sense, too complicated
<seb128> it sort of replace the right click
<tko> also note that tap'n'hold on widget level allows feedback on whether it'll actually do anything
<adilson> tko: Can you clarify this one? I don't think I got it...
<tko> on widget level you know whether tap'n'hold will trigger the context menu or something and can show an animation to indicate that. on X level that's not really feasible (unless you do more interesting hacks)
<adilson> tko: Oh, ok. Thanks.
#ubuntu-mobile 2007-05-31
<landley> So does anybody know how to build ubuntu from source? :)
<Mithrandir> landley: didn't you see my mail to -mobile?
* Signon time  :    Thu May 24 20:15:58 2007
* Signoff time :    Thu May 31 08:52:48 2007
* Total uptime :    6d 12h 36m 50s
* Starting logfile irclogs/ubuntu-mobile.log
<jsmanrique> hi
<Mithrandir> morning
<agoliveira> Mithrandir: hildon-fm now compiles. Yeay! :)
<Mithrandir> \o/
<Mithrandir> with what's in bzr?
<agoliveira> Yes.
<Mithrandir> you reverted my changes, I presume?
<Mithrandir> or at least, most of them
<agoliveira> ohoh... actually not :( I tought you have done it.
<agoliveira> Crap... should I just take the svn import and start over?
<Mithrandir> just reverse-merging r328 should fix it.
<agoliveira> How do I do this with bzr?
<Mithrandir> bzr diff -r327..328 | patch -p0 -R would be one way.
<agoliveira> Fine.
<agoliveira> Hmmm... still getting undeclared gtkfilechooser functions even after update gtk.
<Mithrandir> sure you're including the right header file?
<agoliveira> I'm checking this right now
<agoliveira> Found a missing header file. Nothing to  worry :)
<mdz> agoliveira: 'bzr uncommit' is what you want
<Mithrandir> mdz: not when you need to revert a single commit?
<Mithrandir> (which is not the latest)
<mdz> Mithrandir: I thought it DTRT
<Mithrandir> last time I tried it, it unapplied everything back to where I wanted it to, rather than just the single patch
<mdz> mark once told me it did
<mdz> I confess I've never tried it
<mdz> agoliveira: I suspect there's a more elegant way; I'd ask on #bzr
<agoliveira> Hmmm... anyway the bzr diff... seens to be worked, I fixed a few things and the package was just born :) After the meeting I'll go lunch and right after that I'll double check it and commit it.
<lool> bzr revert perhaps?  /me would try bzr merge like svn merge -r ...
<Mithrandir> agoliveira-lunch: usually, it's good if you try to commit early and often; even if something doesn't work completely right, it's useful for others to see.
#ubuntu-mobile 2007-06-01
<Mithrandir> mdz: should I or you or somebody else approve the specs that have been completed?
<mdz> Mithrandir: last I saw, they were all still drafting
<lool> the "cleanup" one might be marked as started now that Mithrandir has started writing nice copyrights :)
<Mithrandir> mdz: some of them are pending approval, at least the ones I fixed up yesterday.
<Mithrandir> and I was planning on nagging the drafters for the rest of them today, since we need to get the project plan done.
<Mithrandir> unsure if approval-by-committee is going to work well.
<mdz> Mithrandir: agreed re: committee
<mdz> Mithrandir: would you take responsibility for reviewing and approving them?
<mdz> the ones you didn't write, at least
<Mithrandir> yes, I can do that.  Somebody else will have to approve mine.
<mdz> I can do yours if you like
<Mithrandir> yes, please.
<mdz> just send me a list
<Mithrandir> email or IRC?
<mdz> or set me as the approver (though you'd need to subscribe the team to keep them on the team specs page)
<Mithrandir> https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/mobile-app-framework https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/mobile-build-infrastructure are the ones I'm drafting.
<bspencer> what is deb-src vs. deb  in the sources.list file?
<Mithrandir> hi bob
<bspencer> howdy
<bspencer> this channel is quiet.  I should change that
<Mithrandir> deb-src is what apt-get source uses; deb is what apt-get install uses.
<Mithrandir> certainly, more sound is welcome. :-)
<bspencer> thx
<bspencer> I don't know the nicks yet
<bspencer> who is asac?  Is that adilson?
<Mithrandir> Asac is Alexander Sack, the mozilla maintainer
<bspencer> ah, I knew I recognized it 
<Mithrandir> Adilson is another of the mobile people, Adilson Oliveira
<Mithrandir> I am, as you might remember, Tollef Fog Heen
<bspencer> yes.  just hovered over your nick.
<bspencer> going to miss you in CA
<bspencer> late there?  11:30pm?
<Mithrandir> 23:38
<bspencer> :)
<Mithrandir> so pondering sleep soonish
* tko is still in the middle of trying to arrange flights
<Mithrandir> yeah, it's unfortunate I can't be there, but trying to rearrange a vacation would just be too insane.
<tko> hmm, anything before 04:00 isn't late... :-P
<bspencer> tko are you there all week?
<tko> bspencer: trying to
<tko> not sure where I'll be staying but I should have the flights booked
<bspencer> I just got a hotel yesterday.  Everything takes time.
<Mithrandir> bspencer: it's good to see you around here, I was kind worried we lost contact. :-/
<bspencer> sorry.  my bad
<Mithrandir> no need to feel bad, I'm just happy we've caught up again
<bspencer> actually I joined a few times at home but the proxy settings at work weren't obvious and I was lazy to get it sorted out
<tko> I just hope we can manage decent transportation.. I gathered everyone else has a car
<bspencer> tko, true.  But if you need a ride from your hotel we can pick you up
<bspencer> it isn't Europe, no good city-transportation
<Mithrandir> ideally, you should stay in the same place, since, as everybody knows the hallway track is the most important one. :-)
<bspencer> I think it might be hard with the late timing.  Some of the places I tried only had exective suites left
<bspencer> but we'll have the late-night-eating track anyway
<tko> bspencer: yeah, I know, I've been to CA once before.. before that I was to boston and the difference is quite noticeable
<bspencer> east coast cities seem to have come to the realization that they need to be organized to accomodate everyone.  West coast cities are still in denial
<tko> I'm so spoiled by the public transportation in helsinki area :)
<bspencer> I love the European trains
<bspencer> just spent a month in Germany, Engl, Italy with my wife last summer.  It was great.
<Mithrandir> I'm wondering if we'll be able to have a mobile sprint in late august or so
<Mithrandir> do you think that would be doable?
<bspencer> very
<bspencer> on your side of the ocean?
<bspencer> we could do something after GUADEC for a day, perhaps.  I think Rusty and i will be there. (UK)
<Mithrandir> I'd need to actually book the office, but we have a proper office in Millbank, London, UK with facilities which I'm fairly sure we could use.
<bspencer> Either there or Zermatt would be fine with me ;)
<Mithrandir> hehe. :-)
<Mithrandir> zermatt sounds good too, do you have a facility there?
<bspencer> not yet.
<Mithrandir> I can mail the list and see if there's interest in having a sprint in the UK in late august?  We'd need to agree on the dates, maybe early september would be better
<bspencer> if it isn't adjacent to GUADEC then I would say in Sept and it could be anywhere.  Make it convenient for you because it will be the same difference for us. 
<bspencer> Is Sept cutting too close to release?
<bspencer> I've never been to Norway
<Mithrandir> I like Norway. :-P
<Mithrandir> we had a sprint here this winter, it was good.
<Mithrandir> not so much in the way of bandwidth trouble, etc.
<Mithrandir> early sept is not too bad wrt release, but august might be better.
<Mithrandir> I'd be happy to host it here, but it'll cost a bit more than london, and is more hassle to get to than London
<bspencer> hmm.. cost more than London?  Inconceivable
<bspencer> that place is expensive (at least London was for a US tourist)
<bspencer> hotdog = 2.50 pound = $5 USD.   
<Mithrandir> Oslo is.. quite expensive too.
<tko> I got the impression Norway is quite expensive, even compared to finland
<Mithrandir> and here we'd have to use a business hotel to have conference rooms and such, while in London we could use the Canonical offices.
<bspencer> I see.  Why not your house? :)
<bspencer> s/house/mansion
<Mithrandir> it's a flat. :-)  We could use my father's cabin, it can fit some more people.
<Mithrandir> but yes, I could possibly arrange meeting space in Oslo too, depending on how many we'd be.
<Mithrandir> I'll mail the list and we'll see what people think.
<bspencer> maybe we can sort that out on the mailing list.  Intel would have max 5 I think.
<bspencer> but maybe after next week we can discuss too, depending on needs  (kernel, UI, apps, etc.) 
<Mithrandir> sounds good.
#ubuntu-mobile 2008-05-26
<dholbach> good morning
<m14> hello
<Keybuk> I don't seem to be having much luck with the current daily
<Keybuk> I downloaded /moblin/hardy/mccaslin_samsungq1ultrafull/20080526/*.img, wrote it to a USB key and booted the Q1
<Keybuk> it's stuck at "will mount root from /dev/sdb" and not doing anything else
<m14> i have old compaq pocket pc 3800, is it posible install ubuntu mobile on it ?
<persia> m14: Only lpia is supported for now.  There might be ARM in the future, but the 3800 might be too slow.
<m14> persia: i thought so, but was wondering if it is posible. tnx for info m8
<lool> Keybuk: Could you try pressing esc during boot?
<lool> Keybuk: Check where it boots from the boot menu
<lool> Keybuk: My BIOS version says 03ME in the Main BIOS menu
<lool> Keybuk: What about yours?
<suihkulokki> is the arm meeting doc in wiki yet?
<lool> My BIOS boot order is USB CDROM, USB KEY, USB HDD, IDE HDD, ...
<lool> suihkulokki: It should
 * lool searches
<suihkulokki> I tried searching and failed
<Keybuk> lool: booting off the USB key doesn't seem to be problem, it does that just fine
<Keybuk> it's that the installer on the USB key never appears
<lool> suihkulokki: I failed too
<lool> suihkulokki: And I failed finding it in gobby as well
<lool> Suckage
<lool> I think IS have hourly backups
<lool> Keybuk: I was hoping that perhaps some BIOS drive mappings might explain why it isn't working on your side
<lool> I'm rsyncing the latest image in the mean time
<Keybuk> lool: 03ME
<lool> Keybuk: How did you write the image BTW?
<lool> dd?  image-creator?
<Keybuk> my order is USB CDROM, USB HDD, IDE HDD, USB KEY, USB FDC, PCI BEV
<Keybuk> with ZIP and LS120 excluded
<Keybuk> lool: dd
<lool> Keybuk: USB KEY should be higher I guess
<Keybuk> lool: usb key is ?
<lool> Keybuk: You dded on /dev/sdN, not sdN<digit> I suppose?
<Keybuk> lool: no, sdb1
<lool> Keybuk: You should be dding on /dev/sdb and booting on USB key
<lool> USB key is well, an USB key; I don't understand your question
<lool> It's a flash dongle
<lool> Dunno whether that's an americanism
<Keybuk> ok, let me try to sdb
<Keybuk> we call usb storage devices that fit on a keyring "USB keys" 
<Keybuk> but the Q1 seems to call those USB HDDs
<lool> I also wondered about USB keys versus USB HDDs
<lool> Keybuk: What would USB KEY in the Q1's bios then be?
<Keybuk> no idea
<Keybuk> it just says "Not installed" :)
<lool> Perhaps it has heuristics to support some other USB ids which is assigned to USB keys; I thought everything was mass storage
<persia> Is the Q1 that different?  The SR8 just boots off any mass-storage, and always mounts the first found mass-storage device as /dev/sdb (assuming no partitioning, as with the images)
<Keybuk> lool: ok, trying with image just written to sdb
<lool> <drums>
<Keybuk> this seems to be making filesystems
<lool> Keybuk: There's a different image which is called "liverw" which you can get by typing boot=usb in the boot menu, it will probably work from the image you have
<lool> the difference is that it boots from USB and only that
<Keybuk> ok, all seems to work now
<lool> Cool
<mesaynaysayer> hello?
<mesaynaysayer> can someone help me?
<mesaynaysayer> i have a question :)
<mesaynaysayer> i want to buy an mid 
<mesaynaysayer> but i want to know what kind you reccomend for runnning ubuntu mobile on it 
<mesaynaysayer> anyone?
<mesaynaysayer> like, what mid has everyone been having the highest level of suceess using ubuntu mobile on?
<mesaynaysayer> pleaae excuse my n00bishness im 13 :(
<persia> mesaynaysayer: The only device that is commonly available with significant testing of Ubuntu Mobile is the Samsung Q1 Ultra, and I wouldn't recommend it.
<mesaynaysayer> hhhmmm.....
<persia> You'll do better to either wait for future devices, or be prepared to do your own hacking.
<mesaynaysayer> well, i might be able to do a little bit 
<mesaynaysayer> what sort of hacking? 
<persia> Personally, I've tried it on the Kohjinsha SR8, and know others who have tried it on similar subnotebooks, but it's designed too small for that.  There's not yet a lot of products out there in the 4-6" target screen size.
<mesaynaysayer> ah 
<persia> Mostly configuration hacks to make it work with your hardware.  X config stuff, running depmod -a to improve boot time, assigning the hardware buttons, etc.
<mesaynaysayer> that dosent sound too hard
<mesaynaysayer> i mean, im not a total n00b]
<mesaynaysayer> i started using linux when i was 9 :
<mesaynaysayer> :P*
<mesaynaysayer> but, ubuntu mobile does work very well on the samsung q1 ultra?
<persia> mesaynaysayer: Well, insofar as the samsung q1 ultra is a useful device, yes.
<mesaynaysayer> so why wouldnt you reccomend it?
<mesaynaysayer> is it as far as just the device isnt very good? ::p
<persia> Mostly, I don't like the keyboard.  It's also too big for my pocket.
<mesaynaysayer> ah 
<mesaynaysayer> hhhmmm....
<mesaynaysayer> i dont like they keyboard either :\
<mesaynaysayer> did you say something about the kohjinsha sr8 working ok?
<persia> mesaynaysayer: Yep.  I run it on an SR8.  Needs hacks for X and the application buttons, but works otherwise.  On the other hand, I think the SR8 is too large a device to really benefit from Ubuntu-Mobile.
<persia> The SR8 also runs stock Ubuntu, and it's just large enough that this is almost bearable.  Ideally, there's something between -desktop and -mobile for that class of devices.
<mesaynaysayer> yeah 
<mesaynaysayer> i dont suppose anyone has had luck with any nokia mid's have they
<persia> ubuntu-mobile is currently lpia only.  Nokia's devices run on ARM.
<mesaynaysayer> see, i just got on summer vacation, and i want a little project to have fun with and leave me with a really cool device once school starts back 
<mesaynaysayer> ah i see
<mesaynaysayer> well, all i want is kind of a little computer to maintain my servers and do other stuff with when im out and about.
<mesaynaysayer> hhhhhhmmm...
<persia> mesaynaysayer: There are a few preannounced products, just not much shipping.  Take a look at the comparison page at www.umpcportal.com/products for some of the options.  Note that I've yet to find something retail that is both lpia and pocketable.
<mesaynaysayer> thanks 
<mesaynaysayer> you guys always help me :)
<mesaynaysayer> im thinking something like http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_Tablet_OS on a nokia 810
<mesaynaysayer> n810*
<mesaynaysayer> hey i have one more question 
<lool> persia: I'd be curious to know -- if you get your touchscreen to work -- whether the initial flash movie would be more easily scrolled on your device
<mesaynaysayer> if i get a mid with gps straight out of the box
<lool> On both devices I tried on, it was almost unpossible to trigger the movie's rotation
<mesaynaysayer> will gps only work like the map feature if i subscribe to something or does it work unconditionally?
<persia> lool: Initial flash movie?  Is this a different image?
<lool> mesaynaysayer: We currently don't include gps software, but you can add packages to it
<lool> mesaynaysayer: Some are GPS daemons which will record the coordinates or show them on a map
<lool> But we don't ship maps as the ones you'd find on proprietary devices
<lool> persia: Well you might have seen one at UDS, and there also was one before the "HTML grid view" which was in flash, by Intel
<lool> It's still around I think; I'm not sure it still works in UME, but I think MSG people still get it to run
<persia> lool: I did see that.  Looked kinda like the interface on my 922SH.
<lool> Ah my wife just showed me how my diner plate looked like, and I could also smell how it would taste, so I'm off for diner!
 * persia collapses, to return to find out more about this flash thing another day
<mesaynaysayer> ah 
#ubuntu-mobile 2008-05-27
<theFATMAN> i have a portable media player that is similar to an ipod in that it is recognized as aHDD and is bootable. can i install ubuntu mobile on it?
<dholbach> good morning
<pof> I have an HTC Shift (intel A110) running ubuntu and would like to test ubuntu-mobile on it. Is there any pre-built image that allows booting from USB pendrive without having to repartition my HDD?
<amitk> pof: http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/moblin/hardy/
<amitk> pof: trying the mccaslin ones
<amitk> *try
<wirelessdreamer> what processors will ubuntu mobile support?
<wirelessdreamer> nm, i didn't look long enough
<cl0s> whats up? I'm trying to build a mini-itx computer for my car but want to mess with ubuntu mobile before I even start buyin parts.. is there an easy way to set it up like in qemo or virtual box?
<cl0s> oh sorry, think i found it in the wiki.. over looked it before
<wirelessdreamer> what media player does ubutu-mobile use by default?
<wirelessdreamer> cl0s feel free to stop by #linuxice it bounce ideas off people, we all do carpc stuff there as well
<cl0s> nice thankss
<cl0s> not sure what it uses..
<warren_> question can you install ubuntu mobile on a moto q
<warren_> I can handle the truth
<lool> moto q?
<lool> It's meant for lpia devices ATM, details are in the FAQ
<davmor2> cgregan: ping
<cgregan> davmor2: pong
<davmor2> xephyr is working :) however multimedia isn't :( no photo's, no music, no video all say not while docked
<cgregan> Yep....logged that one against 20080523
<cgregan> Don't worry about it. We are more concerned about making sure we have all the apps that we said we would. Not that they are fully functional. There is a loophole in the contract for that
<cgregan> Ofcourse log bugs so that we can track
<cgregan> but since we have little control over upstream projects...we need to make sure the apps are there
<davmor2> cheese no working either for obvious reasons. dates has blank terminals instead of icon along the bottom
<cgregan> lame
<davmor2> file managers icons are cut in two also
<cgregan> I'm surprised we have this much breakage this late
<cgregan> Log them all...I will triage against the Mccaslin build on my Q1
<davmor2> this could still be xephyr though just cause one bits working does mean it all is :)
<GrueMaster> davmore2:  What build are you testing?
<cgregan> Yeah...but I have a device so I can confirm
<GrueMaster> Daily?
<davmor2> GrueMaster: 20080527
<davmor2> no home page on browser any more again could be xephyr
<GrueMaster> Ok.  I can do some further testing on a CB.  There are still a lot of usability issues that I have seen.
<cgregan> davmor2: Log that...I have seen it on device
<GrueMaster> Also, I wish someone would document how to get an image up in a VM environment.  It is more realistic than xephyr for image testing.
<davmor2> cgregan: I'll log the lot and send you an email with the list save you reading through
<cgregan> davmor2: thanks!
<davmor2> At least now it looks right :)
<davmor2> pidgin works :)
<davmor3> oh yes it does
<davmor2> cgregan: feel free to try Ekiga any time :)
<cgregan> Cool....I will....My Q1 sound is screwed up on the latest build....won't let me raise the mic level
<cgregan> Waiting in the 0527 mccaslin build now
<davmor2> I like the backdrops selection there are some nice ones :)
<davmor2> I'll be around testing till midnight anyway so another 1hr and 15mins.  So if you get and running feel free.  Same applies to anyone else davmor2@ekiga.net knock yourselves out :)
<davmor2> Weird second time I opened up the browser home page is there ?!?
<cgregan> Yep...it tries to open %d or something the first time
<davmor2> fbreader seems to be working properly although I have no files to try out on it :)
<davmor2> I noticed a usability issue with contacts.  There's no save button.  Just close, I'm assuming most people would look for a way to save the info they just added?
<davmor2> cgregan: can you just check bug 228094 cause it seems to work for me?
<davmor2> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu-mobile/+bug/228094
<cgregan> Sure
<lool> GrueMaster: Checkout simple-vm-builder
<lool> I need to package it, but it's too late for today
<lool> cgregan: You should be able to run tests on /boot/config-* starting with dailies built against today's MIC
<GrueMaster> lool:  Will do.
<lool> GrueMaster: BTW, re: grep -l: no, it wasn't the same functionality
<lool> I was outputting files not matching, not files matching the pattern
<GrueMaster> oops.  My bad.
<cgregan> lool: ok, thanks
<GrueMaster> lool:  grep -vl maybe?
<GrueMaster> or grep -L
<lool> Probably
<lool> Looks like it
<cgregan> davmor2: You are correct....image zoom now working on 20080527
 * lool calls it a day
<davmor2> cool fixed that's 2
<davmor2> you can delete bookmarks too :)
<davmor2> cgregan: is the media thing still happening on the device too?
<cgregan> Also fixed on mccaslin
<davmor2> so that might be xephyr 
<cgregan> No....used to happen on devices too
<davmor2> still is on xephyr though
<cgregan> I see
<cgregan> You are using Menlow project?
<davmor2> cgregan: there are only 3 bugs from what I can tell.  DO you want me to email them to you or just stick them here?
<davmor2> yes menlow
<cgregan> It is still active in Menlow for some reason
<cgregan> Not sure
<cgregan> Stick the three bugs in...I will review from Launchpad
<davmor2> ï»¿bug 235336.
<davmor2> bug 235338.
<davmor2> bug 235342.
<davmor2> I've added images to the bugs that I can but not the contact bug.  It's pretty obvious :)
<davmor2> and is probably wishlist
<cgregan> Thanks
<davmor2> Games don't run but that is because the root path doesn't include /usr/games.  However Frozen-Bubble runs from cli
<davmor2> with full path :)
<davmor2> But I believe that UME user does include /usr/games in the path :)
<cgregan> Seems to work on Q1
<cgregan> But we are not comparing the same build
<davmor2> yes it's an xephyr root thing :)
<davmor2> Time and date won't unlock in xephyr root
<davmor2> that seems to be the only issue I can find in preferences :)
<davmor2> but is already a bug and has been confirmed
<davmor2> Right I think I'm going to crash out now. Night.
#ubuntu-mobile 2008-05-28
<dholbach> good morning
<davmor2> Still no RC release?
<StevenK> I'm working on it.
<StevenK> I didn't really want to test my test image at 2:00am this morning, so my testing was delayed until I started working.
<davmor2> StevenK: Okay cool any ideas how long before it will be on the server?
<davmor2> p.s. Xephyr is more accurate now
<StevenK> davmor2: Not at this point, sorry.
<davmor2> StevenK: Np's I'll carry on testing yesterday image till then can you give me a ping when it's up though please?
<davmor2> StevenK: do you a device you could try something on quickly for me please?
<StevenK> davmor2: I do, but I'm about to head out for about 15, can I ping you when I get back?
<davmor2> StevenK: Np's
<teletommy> hi
<davmor2> hello
<teletommy> i read about ubuntu mobile and wonder how to install it the right way
<teletommy> where can i find informations about it? 
<teletommy> the wiki doesn't say much about :-(
<bpsew> maybe here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileAndEmbedded/DevelopmentEnvironment
<davmor2> teletommy: do you have a device or do you run in vm?
<teletommy> not now. i will have a car pc
<teletommy> but my first try will be in a vm
<davmor2> teletommy: try the mic instructions here then https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Testing/Cases/UMEinstall
<teletommy> thank you for your help!
<teletommy> what stand UME for?
<davmor2> Ubuntu Mobile and Embedded 
<teletommy> ah :-)
<teletommy> do you think it is a good choice for a carpc?
<StevenK> davmor2: Where were you after?
<davmor2> StevenK: In Office Document Viewer do you get the search window hang.  http://www.davmor2.blueyonder.co.uk/odrerror.png
<davmor2> sorry http://www.davmor2.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/odrerror.png
<StevenK> davmor2: Not when I ran it on my Menlow earlier
<davmor2> StevenK: this might be a xephyr thing that's why I thought I would check.
<davmor2> StevenK: also in the root there is a dir called Mydocs but when I downloaded my cv.doc (to test ODR) it dl into root/Documents is this normal?  Why is Mydocs not used?
<StevenK> davmor2: Um, no idea about that, sorry
<davmor2> I'll bug that then I'll check the settings in the browser dl manager setting too :)
<teletommy> davmor2: is it possible to do this usb-pen installation and boot with a normal x86?
<davmor2> Pass.  I have no device to try this on.  UME is really meant for specific devices at this stage in the game though.
<teletommy> davmor2: which are this specific devices?
<davmor2> Samsung Q1U and the menlow platform being created by Intel
<teletommy> oh ok. And you think it might not run on a normal x86?
<davmor2> StevenK: ^
<bpsew> the configure-script from the mobile-basic-flash sources complains about a missing mozilla-gtkmozembeded-embedding package
<bpsew> what can i do?
<bpsew> is there a source for such a package?
<bpsew> or can i disable the check when running configure?
<lool> persia: Around?
<persia> lool: Mostly
<lool> persia: email
<lool> persia: We're in the last run before release, and we do miss some bits, so I'm flagging this as URGENT
<persia> lool: Right.  I'll upload tonight then.
<lool> persia: Ok; if anything gets in the way, please instruct me how to finish :)
<persia> lool: It's basically just a backport of the branch being merged.  Probably fastest for me just to do it, rather than explain it.
<lool> Ok
<lool> Could you also seed it?
<lool> StevenK: Which seed are we using now?  Did you move back to the main hardy seed?
<persia> lool: Right.  I knew I forgot something.  Which seed?
<lool> StevenK: I think cjwatson was ok with it, did you discuss this with him?
<StevenK> lool: We didn't.
<lool> persia: We used to change the mobile seed in the main bzr branch, ubuntu.hardy in ~ubuntu-core-dev/ubuntu-seeds, but StevenK branched to ~ubuntu-mobile/ubuntu-seeds/mobile.hardy as there was "treb" in the seed which doesn't exist in hardy, but cjwatson said it was fine
<persia> OK.  So update-manager-hildon belongs in ï»¿~ubuntu-mobile/ubuntu-seeds/mobile.hardy ?
<lool> StevenK: Can we change that now?
<lool> persia: I think that's what in use right now
<StevenK> lool: To the main hardy seed? I'd rather leave it using that one
 * persia can't update ï»¿~ubuntu-core-dev/ubuntu-seeds, although this oughtn't be a blocker for merge, if merge is otherwise good
<lool> StevenK: Why?
<bpsew> hello
<bpsew> what are the benefits of ubuntu mobile over google's android? why should i use ume?
<persia> bpsew: Different targets.  Also, Ubuntu Mobile isn't really available enough to have much marketing material at this point: you'll do better to review the code.
<bpsew> i've played with both of them, but i still can't decide, which one fits better
<StevenK> lool: Because Colin and I spoke about it, and he was happy with my reasoning
<lool> StevenK: Which is?
<StevenK> lool: I didn't want to clutter up the main Hardy seed with stuff that isn't in the archive
<lool> When I asked the same, he said it was ok
<lool> Since we have stuff in universe listed there anyway
<persia> As an aside, if we move towards a more differentiated archive, it will be useful to have separate seeds.
<StevenK> Colin said he was fine with my reasoning, and to be honest, I'd rather not change it this late.
<StevenK> persia: Did you fix that gksu keyboard thing?
<persia> StevenK: Only conceptually.  I have the key, but I need to insert the autolauncher call.
<persia> Are we supporting any devices that don't have keyboards right now?
<lool> StevenK: Ok; let us leave it like that then
<lool> Urgh, virtual keyboard doesn't work for me
<lool> cgregan: Do you have a test case for the virtual keyboard?  Could you try to run it?
<cgregan> lool: sure
<cgregan> lool: Virt Keyboard works on mccaslin 20080527
<lool> cgregan: In which app do you test it?
<cgregan> browser
<lool> cgregan: Ah, I'm just stupid; it steals focus when lanching, that was the issue lalala
<cgregan> lool: :-)
<GrueMaster> StevenK:  Ping - Any eta on RC1?
<davidm> GrueMaster, it's in progress but until license issue handled we can't give it to you.
<davidm> Don has to get license issue resolved before we can even provide private build. :-(
<GrueMaster> ok.  Probably a license that we already own.  Gotta love proprietary crap.
<GrueMaster> ready to go otherwise, though?
<davidm> GrueMaster, gettting close, it's building now.
<cl0s> when i install ubuntu mobile and embedded using xephyr.. is it supposed to look like the screenshots on the site?
<cl0s> lol my desktop looks nothing like it and the top bar is buttons some with no text, etc..
<persia> cl0s: Which screenshot are you using for comparison?
<cl0s> http://www.ubuntu.com/products/mobile
<cl0s> grid layout im guessing?
<cl0s> the desktop is similiar, as far as how its listed, def not as many programs.
<persia> cl0s: It ought look something like the topmost screenshot by default.
<cl0s> but at the top i dont get the home button, i get the date and time and a blank button all the way on the right..
<cl0s> instead of the toolbar*
<cl0s> and its like regular gtk gray not that black with a gradient.. i followed the hildon desktop instructions for xephyr..
<persia> cl0s: Hmmm...  That doesn't match my experience, but I haven't tried with Xephyr in some time.
<cl0s> oh.. how do you have it setup??
<persia> cl0s: I run it on a SR8, but I've heard it works well in KVM for those with the right hardware (after tweaking the X drivers).
<cl0s> this is for a regular x86, is there a way i can run it in like virtualbox?
<cl0s> oo
<cl0s> whats SR8?
<persia> cl0s: I've not heard of anyone trying with virtualbox, but it might well work.  Just be aware that you may need to manually install an X driver, that touchscreens aren't quite like mice, and that the DPI will be too low.
<cl0s> sorry im planning on building a mini-itx system for my car, and i was looking at ubuntu-mobile to see if itd be a good start to build a few apps for..
<persia> cl0s: There are a couple other people using Ubuntu Mobile for car-mounted devices, although it will need a fair bit of customisation.
<persia> The SR8 is http://www.kohjinsha.com.sg/products/sr.htm (roughly).
<cl0s> ahh.. nice
<cl0s> yea i'm willing to do some customization, i can do the higher level programming but as far as setting up the os for different systems don't really know where to start if its not a debian type of install, lol
<cl0s> i got the basics setup though its probably just i dont have a theme or something, ill try some more when i get home
<persia> cl0s: It is a debian-type install.  The standard package management tools work just fine.  You can do the customisation from a VT.
<cl0s> sounds good. ill keep messing with it..
<persia> cl0s: Good luck.  While the primary goal really isn't Car PCs, please let us know if you find something that might also be useful in a handheld during your investigations.
<cl0s> yea whatever I come up with I plan on posting in launchpad, ill be hanging around here while I work on it
<cl0s> thanks persia
<persia> Right.  On update-manager-hildon, backporting means pulling just about all the changes, except the comments & some of the dropped Dapper upgrade workarounds.
<persia> Is there an expected use-case to upgrade to hardy using upgrade-manager within Ubuntu-Mobile?
 * persia assumes that any Gutsy Ubuntu-Mobile users will reflash, and uploads the draft intrepid (and more heavily tested) update-manager-hildon to the PPA.
<persia> update-manager-hildon uploaded and seeded.  Please test.  I'm especially interested if anything breaks due to a misperceived need to dist-upgrade (it oughtn't)
<cl0s-home> i have ubuntu-mobile installed on xephire per the instructions in the wiki but it seems like the theme is missing...
<cl0s-home> can i just apt-get that or something?
#ubuntu-mobile 2008-05-29
<StevenK> persia_: Your package for Update Manager is just the normal update-manager?
<persia_> StevenK: There ought be three binary packages.  update-manager-hildon, update-manager-core, and update-manager.  For ubuntu-mobile, update-manager-hildon is interesting.
<StevenK> persia_: Well, the thiny veiled question is, where is the source package hiding, and is it in the PPA?
<StevenK> thinly
<persia_> My intrepid branch (from which that derives: backporting just wasn't happening) isn't 100% merged with mvo's, but it's close.
<persia_> update-manager is the name of the source package.
<StevenK> Does that mean the update-manager in Hardy has what we need, or we need to upload a changed version to the PPA?
<persia_> The update-manager in the PPA has what we need, and the standard update-manager in intrepid is expected to have what we need when mvo finishes merging.
<StevenK> Ah, okay.
<persia_> I uploaded update-manager 1:0.90.1~ume804 this morning after giving up on the backport and not hearing anyone say there was much of a use case for upgrades to hardy using it.  It should be fine for upgrades from hardy, but doesn't have all the hints for gutsy (or older) -> hardy.
<persia_> If you want to play, http://launchpadlibrarian.net/14777823/update-manager-hildon_0.90.1%7Eume804_all.deb is the package to use.
<StevenK> Ah. I was actually looking to seed it.
<persia_> I thought I already did that.
<StevenK> There's no ubuntu-meta upload ... :-)
<persia_> Ah.  Right.  It's in the seed, but I didn't run germinate.  I really ought not do these things at that hour in the evening.
<StevenK> Heh
<StevenK> persia_: It isn't just running germinate, it's a little bit more complicated, but not much.
<persia_> StevenK: Right.  I updated ubuntustudio-meta for gutsy I think, but haven't touched them since.
<StevenK> Oh, that should be the same method.
<persia_> StevenK: I'm away from my keys for about 9 hours.  Would you happen to have time to run it (and I'll be sure to remember for next time)?
<StevenK> persia_: Perparing to do so now
<persia_> StevenK: Thank you.
<StevenK> Just trying to figure out if there was something else I needed to seed.
<cl0s-home> fixed my theme problem by the way.. the tutorial for setting it up has a startup script that points to a theme that doesnt exist..?
<dholbach> good morning
<bpsew> good morning
<davmor2> Yay rc's up :)
<stgraber> davmor2: is it better to use rsync for ume images ? (as they are compressed with bz2)
<davmor2> stgraber: no Idea I just download them
<davmor2> stgraber: I was going to modify the dl-iso script but for one Image I couldn't see the point.  Besides which it enables me to rename them to include the date of the image.
<lool> stgraber: I use rsync; it's a bit faster when you update an image rather than downloading it from scratch
<davmor2> lool: I found it more useful to keep more than 1 copy the new one wasn't always guaranteed to work :)
<lool> davmor2: One thing doesn't prevent the other :)
<davmor2> lool: rsync over writes what is there though doesn't it ?
<lool> persia: Thanks for the update to the seed -- will you update ubuntu-meta as well?
<lool> davmor2: Sure, but you can cp the file before rsync
<lool> StevenK: The icons in dates-hildon are missing; smagoun says this is probably due to sdk-default-icons which I think we tried to remove to see what would break; if I recall correctly its licensing wasn't clear enough for main promotion
<lool> StevenK: I think I'll readd it to the ppa and to the seed
<StevenK> It's non-free
<StevenK> You can't modify it
<StevenK> And I doubt it it's due to sdk-default-icons, dates-hildon isn't from Nokia and sdk-default-icons is.
<davmor2> lool: ah yes true
<lool> I grabbed sdk-default-icons; it's CC 2.5 and it only allows sharing and "remixing"
<lool> So yes, it's probably non-free
<lool> Hmm I don't see it in https://stage.maemo.org/svn/maemo/projects/haf/trunk; I wonder where we got it
<lool> dates-hildon is using icon names such as qgn_list_messagin_editor, qgn_list_gene_fldr_opn, etc.
 * StevenK whimpers.
<StevenK> Dun wanna to add sdk-default-icons back.
<lool> modest has embedded copies of the icons
<lool> https://garage.maemo.org/plugins/scmsvn/viewcvs.php/trunk/src/gtk2/pixmaps/qgn_list_gene_fldr_opn.png?root=modest&view=markup&rev=377&pathrev=377
<suihkulokki> Oh, there should now be permission to license those (and the themes) with CC SA 3.0
<suihkulokki> I need to go kick someone ->
<lool> suihkulokki: Cool!
<lool> suihkulokki: I see it in version 2.0-4.5 in sardine
<lool> And we had branched from -4.1
<lool> Hmm still 2.5 in this version
<lool> suihkulokki: Are such packages kept in a separate SVN, or no SCM at all?
<suihkulokki> lool: I have no idea if there is any SCM for the icons. themes are in haf svn.
<lool> Ok; thanks
<speilicke> Hi guys, can somebody point to a nightly build (or at least something recent) to try out on x86 without much hassel?
<davmor2> Guys why does the moblin-media keep saying Application is disabled while in docking mode?
<lool> suihkulokki: Do you recall the name of the gobby document we had on the ARM port?
<lool> Or does someone have logs of #uds-mobile?
<davmor2> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu-mobile/+bug/234230 this is still present in RC does anyone know what is happening with it?
<lool> davmor2: I do'nt reproduce on my Q1U; could it be some xephyrish issue?
<davmor2> lool: It was cgregan who reported is not functioning on the JAX10 which is menlow rather than mcasslin I think.  So I think it is more likely to be menlow than xephyr but I'll get cgregan to confirm on the jax10 again
<lool> davmor2: I'm upgrading my Q1U, so perhaps it's only for new installs
<davmor2> lool: pass.  I've had it since 20080526 or 27 and confirmed cgregan report but he has had the issue longer on the jax10 device
<davmor2> I'll add a screenshot of it to the report anyway 
<lool> StevenK: Hmm if we release on snapshots.ubuntu.com, we will need to have a /stable or something entry in sources.list, defaults.cfg points to an explicit snapshot version, but you override this when building; do you want to use /current for this?
<davmor2> Guys why is seahorse launcher not visible?  I'd of thought that gpg keys would of been very important.
<teletommy007> i wonder if ume is usable only with a keyboard?
<persia> teletommy007: It's not ideal.  Most applications are optimised for touchscreen use.
<teletommy007> persia: i think about using UME in a car pc. there i only have a wheel using to emulate keystrokes
<teletommy007> i read about intels / windrivers engagement in moblin bringing it to the car.
<zumbi_> !hi
<persia> teletommy007: Depending on which applications you expect to use, that might work, but it likely needs a different default interface.
<zumbi_> is ubuntu mobile already working?
<teletommy007> persia: what are available interfaces
<persia> zumbi_: Somewhat.  It's not really ready for general use without modification at this point, but definitely works for a number of people who use it daily.
<zumbi_> i do not understand very well the infrastructure, what platforms does it support? McCaslin and Menlow ?
<zumbi_> does it support different architectures ?
<zumbi_> what finally what moblin is, is it like the lowest layer?
<ian_brasil> lool: is there some wiki page about the plans for an arm port?
<persia> teletommy007: No limit, really.  The default is touchscreen optimised tought.  You'd nneed to find something else that works for you.
<zumbi_> is it Debian based? like Ubuntu desktop 
<persia> zumbi_: It's a collection of Ubuntu packages, and optimised for McCaslin & Menlow handhelds.
<zumbi_> who are the main developers?
<persia> zumbi_: Participants in this channel
<cl0s> teletommy007: thats what im trying to do.. use it for my car..
<davmor2> NTP install fails 
<zumbi_> persia: anyway, sorry for shooting so many questions at a time
<zumbi_> just trying to find out information, i'm related to embedded debian project and we are having a meeting in september
<zumbi_> i was wondering if maybe some developer could come to our worksession
<zumbi_> i have heard about loic minier, anderson lizardo, tollef, .. are those the right people working in these project?
<Hobbsee> tollef no longer does
<Hobbsee> loic, yes.
<persia> zumbi_: Probably best to ask on the ubuntu-mobile@lists.ubuntu.com mailing list.  The approved list of developers is available from https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-mobile/+members, although lots of other Ubuntu developers also contribute (same software), and other people help in various ways.
<teletommy007> persia: I don't know what exactly i have to search for :-)
<persia> teletommy007: I can't really help you there (as I know little about CarPCs, and that's not really the regular Ubuntu Mobile target).  You might collaborate with cl0s who is doing something similar.  You might also try installing in a VM, and trying different things.
<teletommy007> persi: ok, thank you!
<cl0s> teletommy007: what are you trying to do?
<teletommy007> I thought about usin ume for my car pc that has no touchscreen. only keyboard.
<cl0s> oo.. just curious but why no touch screen? would seem the best for a car..
<cl0s> shouldn't have a problem using a keyboard though, but then you'd need a mouse..
<teletommy007> cl0s: i tested ume in the xephyr windows yesterday and wondered i it is usable without mouse
<cl0s> oo i c.. were you able to use maybe the tabs atleast?
<cl0s> thats as far as i am right now also.. 
<teletommy007> there are this fancy control in the car. BMW tells it a wheel. i will use it as control
<cl0s> ahhh
<teletommy007> i will use this wheel to emulate keystrokes to linux
<teletommy007> like "left" "right" "enter"
<cl0s> ok i see
<cl0s> is it picking up any of your keystrokes in xephyr
<cl0s> the hardest part to me is getting that wheel to talk to the computer... unless thats what its meant for...
<teletommy007> this part is solved. i have connection to the can bus receiving the right messages
<teletommy007> the xephyr window doesn't pick anything
<teletommy007> cl0s: are key strokes not supported or something?
<cl0s> i dont have it installed here at work yet but ill play with it in a little while, maybe start by looking at the program that picks up hotkeys in gnome and start by trying to install and use that..
<cl0s> i just started looking at everything like a day or two ago, wanted to build a carpc from scratch also..
<teletommy007> exactly the same with me :-)
<cl0s> you have some hardware already to start with/
<teletommy007> i have a normal little pc
<teletommy007> with mobile board / processor
<teletommy007> i just have to change the power supply to DCDC
<cl0s> nice.. 
<cl0s> i was just looking at some mini-itx boards and stuff like that
<teletommy007> i use the mb899 from ibase but there shoult be other better boards available
<cl0s> regular small lcd and turning that into a touch screen,... didnt want to spend any money till i had the software part mostly done, and plus i dont have to have money to do that part.. hah
<teletommy007> i read that intel plans a automotive infotainment system using the moblin system based on their atom processor
<cl0s> depending on how open the hardware is i might look at gettin something like that.. but thats kind of why i want to build from scratch
<cl0s> http://moblin.org/community/ivi/
<cl0s> dont know if you seen that but what you were just talking about.. hadnt seen this page before..
<teletommy007> yes, that's it
<teletommy007> but i think it is too new. they don't have much information
<cl0s> yea :(
<lool> FYI people http://paste.ubuntu.com/15550/
<lool> (Just at the time of the IRC meeting, shouldn't affect us)
<emgent> heya
<lool> suihkulokki: Please check http://people.ubuntu.com/~lool/ARM-EL-port 
<lool> suihkulokki: Does this look like the latest version of the doc?
<davidm> Looks like mootbot is with us again
<suihkulokki> lool: looks sane. Thanks for digging it up.
<suihkulokki> Now I have something to point people at
<davidm> #startmeeting
<lool> suihkulokki: I'll move it to the wiki
 * lool kicks MootBot 
<davidm> Hmm, mootbot is stuck
<GrueMaster> Just an FYI:  I'm d/l'ng the RC now, if anyone asks how it looks.
<davidm> #startmeeting
<davidm> Yep, stuck, oh well
<davidm> OK starting the meeting.
<davidm> I have no prior action items
<davidm> And only one current item
<davidm> Topic: Tobin (GrueMaster): segfault when upgrading sudo package in Beta 5 with apt-get update;apt-get upgrade. Pastebin at [WWW] http://moblin.pastebin.org/39480
<davidm> GrueMaster, you have the floor
<GrueMaster> I'm not sure how important it is, or if I should file a bug yet.
<GrueMaster> It may be a conflict with running apt-get in a sudo environment.
<lool> GrueMaster: That's fixed with the -17 kernel
<lool> There's an open bug about that
<lool> It was an unionfs issue with hardlinks
<GrueMaster> ok, then.  Guess it's moot.
<davidm> Sounds like.
<lool> https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/224754
<lool> GrueMaster: The new kernel should be in the current RC, if it's -17 it should be fixed
<davidm> OK, I have no other things on the agenda
<davidm> We have with the assistance of Intel (sorting a license issue) released the first RC image.
<GrueMaster> lool:  I'm still downloading the RC.  Will pass on my test info to Don sometime later today.
<lool> You can test by updating a device to the new kernel
<davidm> Are there any other open issues to discuss?
<cgregan> Is there a listing of the bugs that are listed as fix commit but are not in RC1?
<cgregan> So we do not duplicate work
<davidm> cgregan, as best I know there is at least one, the treb bug (adilson fixed it yesterday) 
<davidm> lool, did you fix something also that did not make the image?
<cgregan> Can an email go out to mobile group with a list?
<davidm> cgregan, sure, that can happen
<cgregan> thanks
<lool> davidm: I fixed things in MIC which were tracked as bug reports
<lool> And I also fixed some missing MD5sums in some packages which were not tracked in bug reports
<davidm> lool, thanks, that would not show up in the image anyway.
<davidm> cgregan, to the best of my info then just the treb fix, but I'll ask StevenK for sure when he wakes up again.
<davidm> I'll get an email out now and then later if need be with an update.
<cgregan> davidm: ok
<lool> cgregan: I can send you a list of changed packages in the ppa since the last snapshot
<davidm> OK, any other opens?
<davidm> OK about to close the meeting, going once.........................................................
<davidm> OK about to close the meeting, going twice...........................
<davidm> #endmeeting
<davidm> Again no mootbot, bummer....
<davidm> Thanks everyone.
<lool> cgregan: What I know I sent to the list and yourself
<bspencer> lool:  any outstanding issues with how we are handling the PPA?  complaints, suggestions, etc.?
<cgregan> lool: thanks
<lool> bspencer: I'm afraid I noticed that you broke the source packages for many of your last uploads
<bspencer> what does that mean?
<lool> bspencer: For example check hildon-desktop, you moved from .dsc listing .diff.gz + upstream tarball to just a native tarball
<lool> There are many broekn source packages which are painful to fix  :-/
<lool> The reason it's hard to fix is because we need to use a higher upstream version number than the one you used, but there isn't necessarily a new upstream version to pakage
<lool> *package
<lool> bspencer: Anyway, this is all moot
<bspencer> ok, before you explain the moot point, explain the hildon-desktop pkg issue
<lool> bspencer: What will happen in the next days is that we will declare UME released and the ppa should not be uploaded to anymore except for very important fixes and security updates
<bspencer> ok.
<bspencer> all I did was add a single patch file and "debuild... -S key<>  "
<lool> bspencer: Source packages for upstream software need to use version numbers with Debian revisions
<bspencer> and the dch number was ubuntu+1 ... ?
<lool> bspencer: When you did this, did you get a warning like "This is a native blah (y/n)?"
<bspencer> don't recall
<lool> bspencer: So whenever you get that warning, you did the wrong thing :)
<bspencer> sad that after all this time I still don't know what I did wrong nor how to learn to do it right
<lool> bspencer: Before uploading, check what's in your .changes file or .dsc file and that you're about to upload: only a .tar.gz + .dsc => bad, .dsc + .diff.gz + .tar.gz => good
<bspencer> how to build the .diff.gz?
<bspencer> is there a step before/after "debuild " ?
<lool> bspencer: The typical cause for this mistake is when you 1) extract the package into e.g. libfoo-1.0 2) run debuild without the .orig.tar.gz for libfoo (libfoo_1.0.orig.tar.gz) in ../
<bspencer> my steps are:   1) dget -x <url>, 2) add patch file, 3) debuild.
<bspencer> 2.5) dch -i  
<lool> bspencer: The .diff.gz is created when creating the source package (the .dsc); if there's an upstream tarball for the current version of the package, dpkg-source with build a patch (.diff.gz) between your tree and the upstream tarball (good); if the tarball is missing or not named properly, dpkg-source will think this is a "native upload" and create a .Tar.gz of your tree (bad)
<lool> bspencer: Your steps shouldn't have caused this
<lool> bspencer: But perhaps the previous upload was already broken
<bspencer> ok.  I assumed that dget -x  ... would have handled creating the needed upstream tarball
<lool> bspencer: Let me check who broke the hildon-desktop package
<bspencer> I didn't check it though.   I'll be more careful
<lool> bspencer: hildon-desktop is special in that it's in bzr
<lool> https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-mobile/+archive?field.name_filter=hildon-desktop&field.status_filter=any
<lool> If you expand Show files  hildon-desktop - 1:2.0.11-1~svn15367-0ubuntu1~804um1 
<lool> =>     *  hildon-desktop_2.0.11-1~svn15367-0ubuntu1~804um1.diff.gz  (61.4 KiB)
<lool> (good)
<lool> Show files  hildon-desktop - 1:2.0.11-1~svn15367-0ubuntu2 (bfiller)
<lool> => no .Diff.gz, bfiller broke it
<bfiller> lool: huh?
<bspencer> bfiller: is such a slacker
<bspencer> oy, hi bfiller!
<bspencer> :)
<lool> bspencer: But let us look at mobile-basic-flash
<bspencer> uh oh
<lool> Show files  mobile-basic-flash - 0.44-0ubuntu1  (inuka) => good
<lool> Show files  mobile-basic-flash - 0.44-0ubuntu2  (bspencer) => bad
<bspencer> checking
<bspencer> lool:  why do we need a .diff.gz for mobile-basic-flash?
<lool> bspencer: Upstream is moblin.org; downstreams could be gaston, Debian, Ubuntu, Fedora etc.
<bspencer> if there are no patches
<lool> .diff.gz is the packaging and patches for Ubuntu
<bspencer> but I took all the patches and pushed them upstream
<lool> bspencer: It's the patch between upstream tarball and Ubuntu source package, it should carry debian/
<bspencer> oh
<lool> It represents the delta between upstream and Ubuntu
<bspencer> so all PPA pkgs should have .diff.gz
<lool> Yes
<lool> To be honest, .diff.gz has some bad characteristics which motivated the use of .tar.gz native packages in the gutsy cycle for mobile
<bspencer> ok.  I updated 5-6 pkgs.  Doubtful that any had a .diff.gz
 * agoliveira waves quickly to everyone.
<bspencer> agoliveira: are you in a parade?
<lool> (You can't ship binary files in .diff.gz, so if you e.g. add an image, you need to encode it as text before putting in the .Diff.gz)
<bspencer> interesting
<agoliveira> bspencer: Yep and ready for your cheering and demostrations of sheer admiration :)
<bspencer> all hail agoliveira !! 
 * agoliveira waves back
<davidm> agoliveira, happy day
<agoliveira> davidm: Hi! Busy day actually...
<lool> bspencer: We will certainly announce it, but as we're about to release, it would be nice if you could pass around that ppa uploads to hardy should be done carefully if at all starting from now and for the next 18 months
<bspencer> lool: I think we can restrict any hardy PPAs to ubuntu requests
<bspencer> we will continue to release on moblin.org and you can pull things if you think they are absolutely needed.
<bspencer> the one thing that lingers is mobile-basic-flash --> xul 1.9
<lool> bspencer: I don't quite now what we will be pulling; certainly security updates will need to be prepared and uploaded to ppa, I don't know which stability fixes will go in
<lool> bspencer: This is a terribly missing transition indeed
<ToddBrandt> is the weekly ubuntu meeting already over?
<lool> Yes
<lool> bspencer: By the way, did you talk to asac on the topic?
<bspencer> I've sent a few emails, yes.
<lool> bspencer: He explained to me where his research brought him, and I can explain what I understood of it if it can help
<bspencer> ok
<lool> bspencer: How far are you now?
<davidm> ToddBrandt, it was very short.  No opens, and no new opens to speak of.
<ToddBrandt> lool: any ARs for me?
<ToddBrandt> davidm: ahh, thx
<bspencer> everything builds, seems ready to go... except that javascript calls from C  don't come through
<lool> ToddBrandt: I don't think so; however I would be happy to give you some work :)
<davidm> ToddBrandt, no there was one for us and it's been done.
<bspencer> the same code that worked with gecko 1.8 doesn't seem to fail, but the Javascript methods don't get called
<lool> ToddBrandt: You handle moblin-applets IIRC?  One of our archive admins made comments on a couple of security issues in moblin-applets source code
<lool> It's in the main promotion request bug for moblin-applets
<bspencer> this means that no apps get shown on the home screen.  It loads without error but is just black.
<ToddBrandt> lool: oh, right, I remember a mail on that
<ToddBrandt> what's the URL?
<lool> bspencer: So the reason it's not called is because the javascript receives blank values for all data becasue the data seems to come from an unsafe source
<lool> bspencer: One way to fix this would be to use XUL at the toplevel rather than HTML (and it would make sense anyway)
<bspencer> "make sense" perhaps, but is a bigger change. 
<bspencer> is there a smaller change that doesn't make as much sense?
<lool> bspencer: I don't think it's that big a change
<bspencer> Having written a couple of simple xul apps, it is tedious debugging
<bspencer> with no clear reason why the seemingly perfect xul page doesn't work
<bspencer> and when you figure it out, it is very simple
<lool> bspencer: For any other solution, I think asac waits for input from upstream as it's a very sensitive code path and we don't want to endanger the security of e.g. midbrowser...
<bspencer> true
<bspencer> so convert home.html to home.xul
<lool> bspencer: You can have a toplevel xul and mostly HTML below, you don't need to rewrite the whole UI in xul
<lool> the toplevel xul container will help from a security context PoV IIUC
<bspencer> I will play with it and see if I can get that to work
<lool> ToddBrandt: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/moblin-applets/+bug/219087
<lool> bspencer: At least that's the only way forward I know about for xul 1.9
<lool> bspencer: Oh and did people from your team organize for the next 18 months?
<lool> bspencer: We will setup a security contact here; we'd be happy to use a security contact in case we need to discuss moblin security holes too, but we also need a channel for security and/or stable updates from moblin
<bspencer> organize:  we have had a bit of restructuring to prepare for sustaining and future development
<lool> e.g. if you discover a security hole in moblin 1.0 software, we'd like to know about it, we need a patch, preferably against released version of the software; we need a separate channel to ensure proper urgency and discretion is used
<bspencer> Mauri can help clarify the details
<bspencer> security:  sure, who is organizing this ?
<bspencer> asac: hello.  got a sec?
<asac> bspencer: yes
<lool> bspencer: Who is organizing on which side?
<asac> 10 min to be precise :)
<lool> bspencer: On the UME side, Canonical people are finalizing this and will probably announce it
<bspencer> lool: who is organizing what the separate channel is for security messages and delivering that message to community
<bspencer> asac: lool was explaining that for security reasons the C-->Javascript calls are failing
<bspencer> and that we probably need to change our top-level HTML to XUL
<asac> bspencer: thats my current story
<asac> i have to verify that with upstream still
<asac> bspencer: we have a javascript issue in epiphany where arguments we pass to a function from c -> javascript are nulled out
<bspencer> I'll try to play with it.  It is probably not a big change, but from past experience, getting xul to work was tedious twiddling to get it just right.
<bspencer> great news -- someone else has the same issue
<asac> we could track that down to place where there is a check for a XUL window
<asac> bspencer: i am not sure, but i have the feeling that its the same issue
<bspencer> it might be.  If I put "alert ('got here') "  in my javascript functions, they never get called
<lool> asac: http://people.dooz.org/~lool/ubuntu-mobile-xul-1.9.txt
<asac> bspencer: in firefox running javascript:xxx() in location bar still works, so it cant be something generally broken
<lool> (log of this chan before you joined starting with xul 1.9 discusison)
<asac> bspencer: does the home screen work when you open it in firefox?
<bspencer> hm... how would the C code run?
<bspencer> it isn't packaged in an extension format
<asac> bspencer: well ... i wonder if we could run your javascript functions through location bar. the C code obviously wont work.
<asac> just to see that its really something due to the embedding api
<bspencer> I see.  I haven't tried that.   This is something that I didn't change between 1.8 and 1.9
<asac> ok. anyway: my kicker is that we keep 1.8 for now, but take care that nothing else is using it. in that way we can transition to xul 1.9 when the security support is dropped for 1.8 without risking regressions outside the mobile-basic-flash
<asac> obviously we wont get the memory saving we hoped for for this release
<asac> but with thorough QA we can put this transition into an update
<asac> would that help?
<bspencer> ok
<bspencer> sounds like a safe approach
<asac> i just wonder how significant this release is? I guess that manufacturers will use the final release + updates to build their images, right?
<asac> or will they always use the unmodified release for the next years?
<asac> lool: bspencer: ok, so if we go for it, i'd suggest that someone reviews if there are other rdepends on xul 1.8. if there are none, then this transition should not hold back release IMO.
<lool> asac: I came to the same conclusion with davidm 
<lool> asac: Except that if a xul 1.9 home screen comes up, we would probably be happy to include it as a stable update
<asac> lool: ok. for 1.8 security support, i will keep updating it in a timely-fashion
<lool> asac: Ok; I didn't expect that, cool then
<asac> not as instantly and coordinated with upstream as the 1.9 branch, but i try to be good at it
<bspencer> asac: is mobile-basic-flash the last lingering 1.8 user?
<asac> same goes for the firefox-2 in universe, which we are updating until it reaches EOL
<lool> On my Q1, I only see mobile-basic-flash pulling libxul0d
<asac> bspencer: i think so, but someone should review it to be sure
<asac> lool: bspencer: midbrowser: merge is ready from what i can tell. now waiting for jimmy to integrate two more patches and bake a packaging release OR for my new ssh keys becoming enabled on moblin again (so that i coudl bake the release).
<bspencer> asac: oy -- you've sent new keys and they aren't activated?
<bspencer> I'll get that resolved first thing
<bspencer> cwong1: 
<asac> so either lets get RC1 into UME final release (PPA) or let it go through the normal -proposed -updates process we are going for ffox RC1. 
<asac> lool: you decide what you want (guessing that we have the bits by tomorrow morning this time)
<asac> lool: b5 in final release and RC1 update in a week? or RC1 in ppa tomorrow?
<lool> asac: sounds risky, please delay post UME release
<asac> ok that makes sense.
<asac> ill think about cherry-picking one tiny bug fix tomorrow
<asac> (broken homepage if proxy set=
<asac> )
<bspencer> lool: there is a weekly meeting (taking place right now) where Canonical meets with Intel to review any open issues / requests.  Tony usually attends but is on vacation.  Currently the list is empty.  (fyi)
<lool> bspencer: This is for the customer builds
<bspencer> yep, exactly.  
<lool> (which is why I don't attend and tony does)
<asac> ok thanks ... anything else? otherwise Ill drop out for a while again :)
<bspencer> asac: nothing else from me. thx.
<sportman> hello
<sportman> hey
<sportman> is there a version out of this for x86?
<lool> sportman: We don't have a generic build yet, but you can install ubuntu-mobile from a regular install on a device, or install the generic kernel from an UME install
<davmor2> does any one know of an ebook location so I can try the e-book viewer properly?
<GrueMaster> davmor2:  I have access to some through the University of Phoenix (I think).  You also might try amazon.com or Barnes and Noble.
<davmor2> GrueMaster: ta
<lool> davmor2: project gutenberg has ebooks I think
<davmor2> lool: ta. I thought I had found one but they were all pdf :(
<sportman> lool so could i install this on a regular gnome ubuntu desktop system?
<lool> sportman: I wouldn't recommend installing it on a system you use for anything else
<lool> sportman: You should install it in a rather isolated use case: chroot, virtual machine, etc.
<sportman> i have a test system lool
<sportman> i reformat it about once a week
<sportman> i really dont mind
<sportman> :)
<lool> In this case, you can try installing UME on it directly; perhaps the easiest way is to do a minimal install and add the ubuntu-mobile package, not quite sure
<sportman> cool
<sportman> alright
<sportman> brb
<davmor2> Found some I had a thought to check out the fbreader website they link to a few :)
<GrueMaster> cool
<cl0s> i don
<lool> persia: I started update-manager, pressed "ok" (no password) and the "starting update manager..." dialog remained on the screen forever
<lool> Second run didn't display anything more
<lool> xsession-errors didn't show anything useful
<GrueMaster> davidm:ping  RC1 missing libvorbisfile3, should be included for frozen-bubble sound to work.
<davidm> GrueMaster, please file a bug on UME for this.   Thanks
<GrueMaster> already did.  #228407
#ubuntu-mobile 2008-05-30
<GrueMaste1> hello all from Ubuntu rc1
<GrueMaster> ok, enough goofing off, back to work.
 * GrueMaste1 rejoins the slaves in the salt mines.
<GrueMaster> lool: ping - could you clarify the frozen bubble issue?  Is it just a missing dependency?  I don't get sound until I load libvorbisfile3, which makes sense, as the frozen bubble audio files are ogg based.
<lool> GrueMaster: It's not really a missing depends
<lool> it's a feature of libsdl-mixer1.2 which is enabled by default but which we don't really want
<lool> I've attached a patch to disable the dynamic loading and link to libvorbisfile instead
<lool> But it's too intrusive for hardy for a couple of reasons
<GrueMaster> The data files are ogg format.  Frozen bubble uses SDL to playback it's audio streams, and SDL links against libvorbisfile3 for this.
<lool> So we will probably add a Depends in hardy
<lool> SDL doesn't link to libvorbisfile3, that's the problem
<lool> (and the feature)
<GrueMaster> No, it only loads it when requested.  I guess I'm confused.
<lool> Anyway, the task is to prepare a "SRU" for hardy; not mobile specific stuff in fact
<lool> It's too late for me to start this, someone should hopefully pick it up tomorrow
<GrueMaster> ok
<lool> Urg, depmod -v
<dholbach> good morning
<emgent> morning
<lool> morning
<persia> lool: I didn't push it.  Which do we want?  Trunk, or the branch?
<lool> persia: Same thing as what's in the ppa, with any fix you deem useful but particularly the python-vte dep
<lool> persia: Otherwise, I can simply add the dep
<persia> lool: OK.  I'll just bump that then, and leave it upgradable to intrepid.
<persia> lool: update-manager 0.90.2~ume804 pushed to the PPA.
<lool> Thanks
 * mvo hugs persia
<lool> ~ume804, that's a new one
<persia> lool: There's a bunch of other fixes in 0.91, but we can wait for intrepid.
<persia> lool: I thought ~ume804 was your designation.  Ought I be using something else?
<lool> I should be listing all the weird version schemes we abused in the ppa, scary :)  Nothing wrong with your version BTW
<lool> persia: Is it?  Hmm I think I've been only advertizing +804um1 and ~804um1
<persia> lool: Just look to the future.  Real Soon Now, we'll just use normal versions again :)
<lool> Anyway, I just mention it because I find it funny that we piled so many different schemes :)
<persia> lool: Ah.  I must have imagined the 'e' then :)
<persia> um is likely better anyway, as it clearly expands to "Ubuntu Mobile" and not to "Ubuntu Muslim Edition" (apt-cache search ubuntume for details)
<lool> persia: and flipped 804
<lool> I was using ~hardy1 at some point
<lool> or was it ~hardy.1? hmm
<persia> Well, as long as it matches the rule hardy > PPA > intrepid, we're likely safe, to some degree.  Of course, without hard agreement about how to version -updates or -security, there's always the risk of insertions not being in the right place.
<lool> hardy < ppa < intrepid?
<persia> Erm.  Sure.  Assuming versions are positive :)
<lool> haha
<linx> hi
<linx> linx
<linx> hi
<linx> anyone up ?
<linx> I'm trying to download the project
<linx> code from where can I pick it up ?
<linx> hi
#ubuntu-mobile 2008-05-31
<emgent> heya
#ubuntu-mobile 2009-05-25
<rampage73> question; i have an acer aspire one netbook which i have loaded unr 9.04 on, everything seems to work except the at&t which does show up in the connection manager 
<rampage73> anyone have any ideas how to get it to work 
<rampage73> or how to make a connection ?
<mikeh789> rampage73, at&t 3g?
<rampage73> yes
<mikeh789> I'm not going to be much help
<mikeh789> I saw you ask over at ubuntu
<mikeh789> I don't think this is where you want to ask either
<rampage73> hmm 
<mikeh789> have you googled to see if someone else has it working/?
<rampage73> any ideas where i could ask ?
<rampage73> yes i have , found one person but have not received a reply as they just said it was working on the post
<mikeh789> I don't think this is a NBR specific issue
<mikeh789> you could poke around in the kubuntu forums and ask
<rampage73> i am not sure definitly not saying it is
<rampage73> it seems to be recognized and show up in network manager applet just cannot seem to find a way to make it connect
<rampage73> ie no connect button
<mikeh789> rampage73, have you tried older live versions to see if it can connect??
<mikeh789> maybe 8.04 LTS live??
<rampage73> good call no i have not 
<mikeh789> easy enough to try
<rampage73> yep i will give it a whirl !
<rampage73> thanks
<mikeh789> did it come with linpus?
<rampage73> no just winbloze
<mikeh789> and I assume it worked with xp
<rampage73> i downloaded the 9.04 remix and installed it 
<rampage73> yes
<rampage73> it does work with xp 
<mikeh789> might be somekind of connection specific software you need
<mikeh789> that could run with wine??
<mikeh789> just a guess
<rampage73> also worth a shot 
<mikeh789> did the connection under xp look pretty standard??
<mikeh789> like a wifi conn
<rampage73> yep 
#ubuntu-mobile 2009-05-26
<Hobbsee> morning mobile team!
<persia> Morning
<Hobbsee> how much of this is a red herring argument, with the main & universe combination?
<persia> Unknown, really
<ian_brasil> hey, android on unr looks great!
<astropunkin1> hi is anyone there?
#ubuntu-mobile 2009-05-27
<rzr> hi
<rzr> any one on http://arstechnica.com/open-source/news/2009/05/canonical-developers-aim-to-make-android-apps-run-on-ubuntu.ars ?
<jetsaredim> what is the architecture of UNR?
<davidm> i386
#ubuntu-mobile 2009-05-28
<persia> StevenK, https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/mobile-mid-karmic-images should probably reference https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Specs/MobileMidKarmicImages
<StevenK> persia: Fixed.
<persia> StevenK, Thanks.
<persia> https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/mobile-unr-karmic-iso-versus-img
<Stskeeps_> comment: we have a goal for 1.0 which is day to day usable on a N8x0, which would be stable enough for use
<Stskeeps_> where you don't have to go back to using Maemo
<Stskeeps_> we have UI quirks at the moment, a bunch of control panels to be made and such
<Stskeeps_> let me just upload a presentation people can glance through that will be presented saturday in copenhagen
<Stskeeps_> Mer UI is still hildon
<Stskeeps_> just with a new layout and theme :)
<Stskeeps_> it's hildon-desktop with lipstick :P
<Stskeeps_> we use debootstrap and apt-get really - it's a script that makes the rootfs's dependant on the devices
<Stskeeps_> HW and platform is entirely seperate
<Stskeeps_> 27 august: maybe :) we hope to put out Mer 1.0 before Fremantle release
<Stskeeps_> so people can use it when the new nokia devices come out, as a replacement for N8x0 Disablo
<Stskeeps_> not yet
<Stskeeps_> beta2 soon though
<Stskeeps_> www.daimi.au.dk/~cvm/cphnotes.pdf is a presentation i'll be giving on saturday on a danish developer weekend
<Stskeeps_> notes on page 19
<Stskeeps_> you can get the raw odp if you want :P
<Stskeeps_> not sure about videos.
<YokoZar> ok
<Stskeeps_> our usual guy in maemo.org isn't there to record, and i haven't presented this presentation yet :)
<YokoZar> ahh ok
<Stskeeps_> what we hope to work with ubuntu is to clean up packages (we have spent some time making diffs from the maemo packaging) and perhaps work together on GTK quirks :P
<Stskeeps_> and to gain a shared set of sane packages
<Stskeeps_> we aren't exactly packaging experts so there's a need for expertise in cleaning up some things :P
 * lbt (as the "Mer build guy") would be happy to talk to anyone about packaging tasks for Mer
<YokoZar> Stskeeps_: lbt: feel free to poke us whenever
<Stskeeps_> can you repeat that question? :P
<lbt> heh
<persia> Is the Mer team happy to have their software delivered as "Ubuntu MID"?
 * lbt is
<Stskeeps_> yes - as long as we are aware it's not a merge of Mer and Ubuntu MID project wise, MID is a variant / seed of the Mer packaging etc, and we hope to work together on packages
<Stskeeps_> so it's just another way to bring the Maemo platform to more devices :)
<Stskeeps_> but we'd love to cooperate
<lbt> that's how I'd understood it (re comment in room)
<Stskeeps_> Mer is just making Maemo sane enough to run outside Maemo ;)
<lbt> there should be a lot of overlap
<Stskeeps_> Maemo GTK is a big one and should be carefully looked into when adopting Hildon. :P
<Stskeeps_> because it's the most troublesome problem with adoption
<Stskeeps_> are we speaking automated tests or testcases for people to run through?
<Stskeeps_> yes, that should be cooperated upon obviously :)
<Stskeeps_> we should inherit a lot of quality from hildon testing as well
<Stskeeps_> yes, i think there's automated ones
 * lbt would also like to mention the build system for the 'agenda'
<Stskeeps_> we should definately talk to Maemo Devices and discuss how we can work on this - i'm sure quim gil would be interested :)
<lbt> if we're done on testing?
<lbt> we use OBS
<lbt> which is the Suse system
<Stskeeps_> hehe, we use OpenSUSE build service so just a quick overview of how things are structured at the moment
<lbt> correct
<Stskeeps_> (it can -also- build on ubuntu standard build!)
<lbt> so you shouldn't care
<lbt> ;
<lbt> )
<lbt> no... but we have a process
<lbt> build+process
<Stskeeps_> we will have a presentation in the weekend on OBS as well
<lbt> yes
<lbt> build also builds the repo
<lbt> :Devel->:Testing->:Stable
<lbt> and a make-like rebuild
<lbt> yes
<lbt> we need to review that
<Stskeeps_> we do similar but on a smaller timescale :P
<lbt> now we end up with things going into :Devel
<lbt> and things going into :Testing
<Stskeeps_> mer only moves ahead with contributions so cleanup patches, fixing UI quirks, only help to reach the goal :)
<lbt> some are new features, some fixes
<Stskeeps_> we're getting there but not yet. there's a page on it in the slides i sent
<lbt> my concern is we branch
<lbt> and we're not setup for that yet
<lbt> I expect that :)
<lbt> yes.... I am 'concerned' about making sure improvements get back into :Devel
<lbt> ( and help get working on OBS )
<lbt> and know that we included your patches... yes
<Stskeeps_> we'd probably consider you ubuntu developers as any other mer contributors in terms of getting packages up to fashion or UI etc :)
<lbt> meh... OBS is just dpkg-buildpkg 
<lbt> already on lp
<lbt> is there more?
<Stskeeps_> lbt: not so much :)
<lbt> sure... will review
<lbt> you are?
<Stskeeps_> you'd probably gain access to mer trees as well to work on it as well :)
<persia> So, please do schedule something with me :)
<Stskeeps_> since it's a cooperation and we can practically just copy in packages from mer to ubuntu 
<lbt> we can make Mer_0.14LT  ;)
<Stskeeps_> *nod*
<lbt> 8 weeks!!!
<lbt> sounds good.... document somewhere and review
<Stskeeps_> i'll take a talk with quim gil etc about maemo upstream now that we have ubuntu in the view and get a process going there
<Stskeeps_> over one or more beers ;)
<lbt> we also have hildon Qt in the mix
<Stskeeps_> in the weekend
<Stskeeps_> we have it :)
<lbt> it's there
<Stskeeps_> it's a variant of qt that looks like hildon
<Stskeeps_> it's just as much a pain as maemo gtk ;) 
<Stskeeps_> http://qt4.garage.maemo.org/
<Stskeeps_> in terms of integrating into ubuntu
<Stskeeps_> it makes qt apps fit in hildon nicely
<Stskeeps_> matchbox wm atm (version 1)
<Stskeeps_> oh, keyboard
<Stskeeps_> we use hildon input method at the moment but it's getting to be a headache
<lbt> we want good solutions.... the earlier the better
<Stskeeps_> none of the cool maemo stuff is OSS ;)
<Stskeeps_> and i'm personally not a GTK expert
<Stskeeps_> so we have a virtual keyboard example
<Stskeeps_> and that's it :)
<lbt> we need to work on agreeing API/dev stuff 
<Stskeeps_> also there's problems with upstream HIM we're working on (only support thumb keyboard)
<Stskeeps_> we aren't locked to HIM exclusively at least :)
<Stskeeps_> it's just a gtk im
<lbt> I don't have a HW keyboard
<lbt> N800
<lbt> need a virtual keyb... don't care which
<Stskeeps_> we need a on screen keyboard, we use Hildon Input Method at the moment
<Stskeeps_> the virtual keyboard
<Stskeeps_> but it needs improvement to be sane for users in the long term, layouts, etc :)
<Stskeeps_> *nod* there is some thought maybe to scrap HIM as the benefit isn't so big at the moment
 * lbt is not an expert in the implementation in this area
<Stskeeps_> it's just about switching gtk im's so :P
<lbt> nope...
<lbt> thanks.... look forward to it :)
<Stskeeps_> 1pm ;)
<lbt> heh... sounds good
<Stskeeps_> right - thanks, will this session be stored anywhere?
<Stskeeps_> the audio of the session that is :)
<Stskeeps_> ah, alright 
<YokoZar> https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/mobile-mid-karmic-use-mer  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Specs/MobileMidKarmicUseMer
<lbt> IRC has timestamps...
<lbt> use TTS ...
<Stskeeps_> notes will be good :)
<lbt> ?
<Stskeeps_> enjoy your lunch!
<lbt> do we have a headline?
<persia> headline?
<lbt> for presentation at CPH
<lbt> ie Ubuntu-Mid will be built on Mer
<lbt> Stskeeps_: thought you may want a 1-liner
<lbt> and agree how to express it :)
<persia> We could certainly do that.  I think we have consensus about it, whereas last week it was mostly that Stskeeps_ and I thought it was a good idea.
<Stskeeps_> *nod*
<lbt> it's breaking news now and I think it's exciting
<Stskeeps_> lbt: think i'll mention it in my presentation
<lbt> right.... gotta go... Stskeeps_ will catch you in #Mer in a while
<lbt> bye all
<Stskeeps_> yeah, gotta get back to packing all my equipment for tomorrow
<Eric_K> is this chan for ubuntu unr as well ?
<persia> Eric_K, Yes.
#ubuntu-mobile 2009-05-29
<^arky^> hi
<^arky^> I have a question 
<^arky^> I am trying to add a i386 repo to my lpia sources.list , however it fails due the $ARCH variable. Is there a way to override that
<StevenK> Not using apt
<persia> ^arky^, This is a widely discussed issue.  In the session at UDS about lpia, it was decided that the architecture should be deprecated.  I strongly recommend reinstallation.
<^arky^> persia: reinstallation ?  Karmic mid are uninstallable
<^arky^> persia, can you suggest a solution as karmic MID .img seems to give some trouble 
<persia> ^arky^: The MID image is expected to change very significantly over the next 7-8 weeks, as a result of decisions taken at UDS.  I recommend you stick with jaunty until then.  I'll be sending out email with conclusions next week.
<ian_brasil> arky...i installed MID then did apt-get on ubuntu-netbook-remix and ubuntu-netbook-remix-default-settings and the purged mid settings
<ian_brasil> seems to work fine apart from wifi
<ian_brasil> not that i am advisinf you to do this b.t.w
#ubuntu-mobile 2010-06-04
<ian_brasil> if anyone has some spare cycles would appreciate a look over http://revu.ubuntuwire.com/p/plasma-mobile
#ubuntu-mobile 2010-06-06
<jheady> cheers
<jheady> has anyone here implemented ubuntu mobile as a car pc os?
