#ubuntu-accessibility 2011-04-25
<Pendulum> apinheiro_lunch: any chance you'd be interested in doing an IRC talk for Ubuntu Open Week next week on Ubuntu a11y or Orca or something along those lines?
<apinheiro> Pendulum, hi
<apinheiro> well, the issue is that I were more focused on just Unity
<apinheiro> for Ubuntu a11y in general, I think that TheMuso is more suitable
<Pendulum> on Unity is fine :)
<Pendulum> since you probably know it more than anyone else :P
<Pendulum> (other than TheMuso, but sadly the way Open Week works, he's in the wrong time zone :( )
<webczat> Hey, what's new?
<webczat> did someone tested the qt bridge?
<webczat> I can't test it, but I'm trying to compile it.
<webczat> maco: you there?
<maco> webczat: yes
<webczat> did you try testing qt-at-spi?
<maco> no
<webczat> I will install ubuntu-11 beta2 I think
<webczat> but not sure if it's then safe to switch to the at-spi2 thing.
<maco> it'll probably be a couple weeks before i get to it as i have plans all weekend this weekend and am graduating the weekend after that
<charlie-tca> webczat: grab the daily instead. It has a lot changes in it
<webczat> do you at least know if at-spi2 itself works?
<charlie-tca> !daily
<ubot2> Daily builds of the CD images of the current development version of Ubuntu are available at http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/daily/current/ and http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/daily-live/current/
<webczat> thanks for the information. what's the difference between 2 links?
<webczat> ahh I see. what are most notable changes in this livecd?
<charlie-tca> There were hundreds of changes between beta2 and now
<charlie-tca> If you install beta2, you might have 300 upgrades to do 
<webczat> what about accessibility-related?
<maco> webczat: i dont think my change to ubiquity to make it read the right stuff on the partitioning page was in beta 2
<charlie-tca> I think there were a lot of changes. screen-reader install failed for beta2, now it works
<webczat> mhm
<webczat> let's go with it, going to grap a cd.
<webczat> is there any thing new like a beep at bootloader prompt, or something?
<charlie-tca> unfortunately, no
<charlie-tca> They are still making it hard for us
<AlanBell> there is a bug for that
<webczat> but they didn't do it.
<webczat> AlanBell: do you know if at-spi2 works correctly in ubuntu?
<AlanBell> webczat: sorry, not sure
<AlanBell> just searched for that bug and it turns out there are three bugs already filed
<AlanBell> all filed by me
<AlanBell> bug 749642
<ubot2> Launchpad bug 749642 in casper "no audio cue to assist getting to menu for accessibility options" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/749642
<AlanBell> Bug #617835
<ubot2> Launchpad bug 617835 in casper "no audio indication of when and how to get to the accessible installer" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/617835
<AlanBell> Bug #732320
<ubot2> Launchpad bug 732320 in ubiquity "no audio clues on how to get into the accessible install with screen reader" [Wishlist,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/732320
<maco> heh whoops
<webczat> Actually, does someone know why ubuntu does not use at-spi2 by default?
<maco> webczat: it's incomplete, isn't it?  also, Dasher (predictive on-screen keyboard) is pretty broken with it (can't input into programs directly, have to copy and paste from Dasher's text editor)
<maco> (Dasher's upstream doesn't see a reason to fix that though :( )
<webczat> maco: i thought at-spi2 is complete, because gnome3 dropped bonobo right? so at-spi2 needs to be completed to replace at-spi
<maco> what does bonobo have to do with at-spi?
<webczat> ahh. because at-spi is corba
<webczat> i mean 1
<webczat> 2 is dbus and this is the reason that qt-at-spi needs 2
<maco> the gnome-accessibility mailing list earlier today had a discussion where someone was trying to compile orca and they were told to stop using at-spi2 and use at-spi 1 since its not done enough yet
<webczat> mhm, maybe it's right
<webczat> but ubuntu-11 has it. so I'll check if it can work.
<webczat> there is a method to switch between at-spi versions.
<webczat> using gconf keys
<webczat> i sent a question to orca guis, awaiting answer about that
<webczat> s/guys
<webczat> ubuntu-11 ready. going out for it, bye.
<hajour1> hi all still on my daughters pc 
<ubuntu_> hey. at-spi2 tested, qt-at-spi test in progress, I don't have skype (I want to test the accessibility thing with skype)
<webczat> oops
<hajour1> AlanBell,  can you help webczat maybe?
<hajour1> hi leoquant 
<leoquant> hi hajour1 
<AlanBell> if I knew the answer I would have said :)
<hajour1> o sorry
<hajour1> do you know who maybe can help webczat  AlanBell 
<AlanBell> its OK
<hajour1> really need a list with names and who to ask for what
<AlanBell> webczat has already asked in all the places I would think of
<hajour1> mm 
<hajour1> what that at-spi2 is for?
<AlanBell> the only thing I would have done differently is that I would have asked webczat :)
<hajour1> what=where 
<AlanBell> at-spi2 is the assistive technology service provider interface (I think)
<AlanBell> version 1 uses corba, version 2 uses dbus
<webczat> yeah
<hajour1> ???
<webczat> and it works great.
<AlanBell> corba and dbus are different ways of getting programs to talk to each other
 * hajour1 regrate she is still a nooby
<hajour1> a ok
<AlanBell> webczat: version 2 works great?
<webczat> AlanBell: I'm running it for half an hour and it's ok.
<webczat> unless i missed something and I still use version 1? but ps shows version 2 and 1 is not installed.
<hajour1> so its like a thing what connects
<hajour1> i am trying to understand it
<webczat> I also installed qt-at-spi. and ran qt designer, it works in a strange way, i don't think i really understand it, but it doesn't crash and it is probably accessible. I want to try with skype that i know more about.
<webczat> but I fscking can't find a download link lol
<AlanBell> download link for skype?
<webczat> yeah. I pressed get skype and then I can't find a link.
<webczat> I one time found it few weeks ago but I don't remember how
<AlanBell> 64 or 32 bit?
<webczat> 32
<webczat> i didn't burn 64 bit ubuntu-11 although i could
<AlanBell> http://www.skype.com/intl/en-gb/get-skype/on-your-computer/linux/downloading.ubuntu32
<AlanBell> although that is just hanging for me at the moment
<AlanBell> working now
<AlanBell> that page should automatically kick off the download
<AlanBell> hajour1: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assistive_Technology_Service_Provider_Interface
<hajour1> i going to try to read it
<hajour1> i go read it later to much talking here around me at the moment
<hajour1> mmm i not know how to say it easy so i have write it on a note from my facebook.
<webczat> AlanBell: right, installed on a livecd, tests done. not really accessible but I see something, so it's actually going in the right direction.
<hajour1> i will wait till you are ready with this
<webczat> AlanBell: like, I see some unmarked button, the sign in button, checkbox for remember me, and username/password fields. fields are strange, username is displayed as combobox, password as cleartext, and when I type something, I can't read it back.
<webczat> not sure why is that. but anyway it stopped to be an inaccessible window
<webczat> but at-spi2 itself works correctly
<AlanBell> that is promising at least
<webczat> yeah, I see.
<webczat> I am really waiting for this beautiful day, when I'll be able to use kde, skype and other things like that.
<webczat> it was a big hole for a long periot of time.
<hajour1> so i have write it here if you want for who want to read it see link >>> http://www.facebook.com/games#!/note.php?note_id=150090575056575
<webczat> okay, a next at-spi test with qt on skype after logon. hmm, it seems it reads bad control types
<webczat> but actually I was able to go to the menu and quit.
<webczat> woohoo
<hajour1> what are control types?
<webczat> types of things that are inside windows on the screen: buttons, textboxes, etc.
<webczat> going out for today guys.
<hajour1> btw that link is not info from a game
<hajour1> its info about me
<hajour1> bah then i have put it in the wrong place
<hajour1> i still not know how to put a message there
<hajour1> going to try to find it out brb
<hajour1> so think i have succeed now
#ubuntu-accessibility 2011-04-26
<hajour1> AlanBell,  if i try to enlarge the fonts by google mail the fonts go be unreadable
<hajour1> with using ctrl +
<hajour1> goodnight all
<Fudge> natty beta2, after unmuting and loading orca, restarting desktop i got to the slideshow part of isntall using unity and didnt know where to go from there
<Fudge> any ideas
<ubuntu> hey
<AlanBell> hi ubuntu 
<webczat> i actually always forget that I don't have webczat nick when starting up
<webczat> Hmm, what's the reason for the speakup and speakup-sources package to exist in natty?
<webczat> I'll clarify: packages are needless because the speakup module is already included in .28
<AlanBell> webczat: are they on the CD?
<AlanBell> !info speakup natty
<webczat> They are present as kernel modules on the cd. espeakup connector is still needed, but modules are not cause they are already there. it's in drivers/staging/speakup.
 * AlanBell mentions in #ubuntu-kernel
<webczat> Speakup is kernel builtin as of .37.
<webczat> And I see it.
<webczat> I still do.
<webczat> what can it mean if I dd on the hard disk and after few minutes, the system sometimes freezes for few seconds?
<webczat> Hey, I have problems with at-spi2.
<webczat> The login screen is inaccessible, also things like a logout/shutdown dialogs aren't.
<webczat> hmm wait
<webczat> How do you correctly install at-spi2? like if I do it, some programs speak, but things like a logout or gdm don't.
<webczat> i really don't understand this at-spi2 thing
<webczat> Erm, does anyone know why at-spi2 does not read my login screen, and logout/shutdown dialogs?
<webczat> they are normally seen as inaccessible
<webczat> when at-spi2 is running
<webczat> it annoys me
<webczat> but I don't know if this is because at-spi is not started when it should, or this if my fault, or what?
<webczat> s/if/is
<webczat> because I don't know if I need to fill a bug or do something.
<maco> TheMuso: rather than always having to edit orca's package, do you think it'd make sense for the orca scripts for various packages to be included in the packages themselves?  that way a package maintainer or an upstream could handle the scripting of that app themself
<webczat> maco: i made a qt-at-spi test yesterday
<JanC> maco: I think adding them to the application package makes sense for projects that have some person/team that takes care of it (that way PPAs with newer versions also include newer Orca scripts), but what if upstream doesn't care?
<TheMuso> maco: Thats not a bad idea actually.
#ubuntu-accessibility 2011-04-27
<webczat> Hey, is there any ppa with nightlies of firefox4?
<webczat> It has extreme number of bugs that may be fixed in nightlies. I mean firefox 4.0.
<UndiFineD> webczat, I use namoroka (firefox beta)
<UndiFineD> http://ppa.launchpad.net/n-muench/firefox-daily/ubuntu
<webczat> Actually I found nightlies in another ppa already. :) I'm trying to find some major bugs that are present.
<webczat> did anyone try firefox with orca on ubuntu natty?
<leoquant> webczat, not yet
<AlanBell> https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/dx-o-unity-a11y
<hajour1> hi all
<charlie-tca> Natty has a working screen-reader install, starting at the cd menu
<charlie-tca> It automatically installs classic session, but it mostly works(not perfect, and not always the right words)
<hajour1> mmm
<charlie-tca> It does work better than what we have in maverick :-)
<hajour1> ok 
<hajour1> and do it work also on leight weight programs charlie-tca ?
<charlie-tca> AlanBell: that is a lonely blueprint to subscribe to 
<charlie-tca> hajour1: haven't tried it
 * AlanBell keeps charlie-tca company
 * charlie-tca hugs AlanBell 
<hajour1> lonely bleuprint?
<charlie-tca> <AlanBell> https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/dx-o-unity-a11y
<charlie-tca> for UDS, you subscribe to the blueprints for the session you want to attend
<AlanBell> the blueprints are only just becomming available so there is no massive hurry
<hajour1> a that bleuprints
<hajour1> thanks for the link finally 
<hajour1> i mean finally its there
<Pendulum> just a reminder that we have a meeting in just over 2 hours
<hajour1> a ok thanks Pendulum  for remembering
<hajour1> i am not on my own pc you see
<hajour1> so i not have my notes from my tomboy here
<AlanBell> https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/desktop-o-accessibility-ubiquity/
<AlanBell> maco: ^^
<hajour1> AlanBell,  i got a problem.i can't read my mail. i got gmail    and if i enlarge there with ctrl +  the fonts are like a bad copy
<AlanBell> is this a problem specific to gmail?
<hajour1> i don't know but i don't dare to use my yahoo mail anymore because after the hack from my mail. there are mails send with my mail adress by someone else
<hajour1> so i only had my gmail still to use AlanBell 
<AlanBell> sure, but there are other websites
<AlanBell> just looking at the gmail code now, it seems to use arial as the default font
<hajour1> need to be save protected mail
<AlanBell> which should end up being substituted by dejavu sans on ubuntu
<hajour1> what means substituted?
<AlanBell> replaced
<AlanBell> arial is a microsoft font
<hajour1> mm ok
<AlanBell> which you can install on Ubuntu, but it isn't there by default
<hajour1> UndiFineD,  looked at it and coald not change it
<hajour1> a ok
<hajour1> i miss my english spellingscontrol but cant change it on my daughters pc
<hajour1> so i hope its a little ok
<AlanBell> ok, lets try installing some extra fonts
<hajour1> and that i have it enough automatize
<AlanBell> this is on a full size computer now right?
<hajour1> yes
<AlanBell> ok, in a terminal paste this command
<AlanBell> sudo apt-get install ttf-mscorefonts-installer
<hajour1> her pc is2 years old
<AlanBell> that will download some extra fonts including arial which gmail uses by default
<hajour1> can i copy it exact like that?
<AlanBell> yup
<hajour1> but i not know the pastword from this pc
<hajour1> i let UndiFineD  read back so
<AlanBell> ah, well that won't work then!
<hajour1> he had the change for first time in weeks to watch a movie and that is amazing with 4 teenagers in home
<hajour1> so i will let him enjoy watching his movie
<hajour1> AlanBell, ^
<JanC> s/change/chance/
<AlanBell> hajour1: if you go to settings in the top right of the gmail page
<JanC> and let him see that movie!  âº
<AlanBell> then themes
<hajour1> hehe yes i let him see the movie
<hajour1> sec need to log in
<AlanBell> you can change different colours and fonts
<AlanBell> although most seem to be the same font
<hajour1> o crap not now my password anymore in UndiFineD  his pc its in memory
<hajour1> then i must wait
<maco> ctrl+ is working fine on my gmail
<AlanBell> works great for me too
<hajour1> yesterday i suddenly was forgot my pincode from my bank pass
<hajour1> not by me
<hajour1> and i still not remember it
<hajour1> have put in 2 times wrong code :S
<AlanBell> oops
<AlanBell> at least you won't need to change currencies for UDS
<hajour1> so i not dare to try third time
<hajour1> i need to go yo bank tomorrow for to ask pincode again
<hajour1> no lucky i not need to do that
<AlanBell> we should have gone to the Euro when everyone else did
<AlanBell> oh, you know about the per diem allowance?
<AlanBell> I checked with Marianna and there will be one, they just have not set the ammount yet
<AlanBell> so basically each night you can eat in the hotel and put the meal on your room
<AlanBell> or alternatively you can go out
<hajour1> ok need to tell it.i have get a choice last week by doctor.lower meds and then almost nothing can do anymore allone and having ppain.or stay on this high dose .only the prize from it i probarly be de dead in about 10 years or in a coma
<AlanBell> spend your own money and claim something like â¬30 (roughly)
<AlanBell> without a receipt or anything
<AlanBell> so you can go out and spend less than â¬30 and you keep the change
<hajour1> so before that time i want to have changed things here in netherland for people with issues
<AlanBell> or go out and spend more than â¬30 and have a great night out
<hajour1> and i already working on that
<hajour1> but do not have sorry for me
<hajour1> be happy for me i have at least 10 good years
<AlanBell> so you need to take something like â¬120 or have a bank card to go out and eat each night and you can claim it all back again at the end
<JanC> they accept euros in Budapest?
<hajour1> ok i hope i will have so much i already scrabbing all money together to pay my travel for to come from my vilage to the airport
<pleia2> AlanBell: thanks for checking on per diem
<hajour1> sorry for dropping it so suddenly.but did not know good how to tell this
<hajour1> i think there is no easy way for it
<hajour1> feeling now guildty for upsetting you all
<hajour1> hope i have write it good
<hajour1> but i have a request
<charlie-tca> hajour1: no problem. They told me 10 years ago I would be completely handicapped by now
<hajour1> if it is my time and speechcontrol is really made.and still needed do you think cononical would care for it it will stay up to date and good?
<hajour1> for all people who need it
<JanC> hajour1: 10 years is a long long time from now  ;-)
<hajour1> have very much to do JackyAlcine 
<hajour1> JanC, 
<charlie-tca> got to wait and see what is still around in 10 years
<hajour1> i need to go to government to wake them up and remembering there promisses
<hajour1> what they had promised and have put in the law
<hajour1> for handicap people
<hajour1> have had many talks last week
<hajour1> with cityhall and wsw =for handicap people adjust work
<hajour1> and volunteer agancy
<hajour1> and ren 4 =for help guidance to help handicaped people
<hajour1> and have contact all kind of instances from handicaped people
<hajour1> i maybe had no pc but have not sit still
<hajour1> i also have help now to put a petition together
<hajour1> we go starting after uds
<hajour1> and till now all people i talked to are enthousiastic for my ideas
<hajour1> they already talked to do it country wide
<hajour1> but i said first start small
<hajour1> build up easy
<hajour1> but good
<hajour1> i already have permission to put in a call by the volunteer site from that agancy and they work together with government often to
<hajour1> thats where i was busy with last weeks
<hajour1> so sorry for be not so much been around here last weeks
<hajour1> but had very busy and was very tired in evening slept right after diner
<hajour1> most of the time
<hajour1> my 16 year old daughter was the 1 who played games on my facebook
<hajour1> she have a problem with sleeping
<hajour1> she not sleep more then 2 hours
<hajour1> whole her life
<hajour1> 2 hours in 24 hours
<JanC> :-/
<hajour1> you all have say me ubuntu tought is not only irc
<hajour1> i have learned and put it in action
<hajour1> on this way i help open source and people to get education and self mmm esteam?
<hajour1> not know last word
<hajour1> also to not give up
<hajour1> never give up
 * Pendulum heads to B&N
<Pendulum> back when I'm set up with a nice drink and hopefully a working Nook Color
<hajour1> what is B&N?
<AlanBell> a bookshop
<charlie-tca> Barnes and Nobles bookstores
<hajour1> a ok
<hajour1> i have get from a team member a listenbook from nietze
<JanC> Nietzsche ?
<JanC> that's heavy stuff !  âº
<hajour1> always wanted to read that but reading is very difficult for me so now i have a listenbook
<maco> Pendulum: got your nook
<maco> ?
<Pendulum> maco: well, I discovered my problem was not me
<maco> huh?
<hajour1> ?
<hajour1> i think i missed a lot last weeks
<Pendulum> maco: B&N is doing work on their servers which has meant that Nooks are now reacting as if they aren't registered and then can't connect to the B&N network to confirm the registration info
<maco> doh
<hajour1> a ok the bookstore
<Pendulum> so I essentially have a $250 paperweight until it's fixed
<Pendulum> which should be sometime today
<maco> fun stuff :(
<Pendulum> really wishing I'd rooted my Nook before now ;-)
<Pendulum> I think it's a bit ridiculous if their doing service on the server means I can't use my Nook. It's not like it stops working when I don't have internet access!
<hajour1> what is a nook?
<Pendulum> hajour1: it's a ebook reader
<hajour1> a ok
<hajour1> thank you Pendulum  for info
<Pendulum> maco: to make it better, they didn't even warn their stores about this.
<Pendulum> right, meeting time!
 * Pendulum pokes charlie-tca AlanBell TheMuso 
<AlanBell> o/
 * charlie-tca waves
<MrChrisDruif> o/
<hajour1> o/
<maco> o/
<hajour1> UndiFineD,  sleeps
<Pendulum> it is 21:00 UTC, right?
<hajour1> he have had very busy days last time
<charlie-tca> yup
<JanC> 21:03
<maco> yep
<Pendulum> (just realised my laptop is telling me 2 different times. and the Ubuntu clock says it's 30 minutes ago)
<hajour1> it is 23:03 here evening
<Pendulum> right!
<maco> Riddell: poke
<Pendulum> agenda is at: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Accessibility/Team/MeetingAgenda
<Pendulum> it's pretty simple in that it's all about making plans for Oneric and UDS :)
<Pendulum> oops
<Pendulum> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Wed Apr 27 21:05:39 2011 UTC.  The chair is Pendulum. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/AlanBell.
<meetingology> Useful Commands: #topic #action #link #idea #voters #vote #chair #action #agreed #help #info #endmeeting.
<hajour1> i go try to wake him up
<hajour1> brb
<Pendulum> #link https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Accessibility/Team/MeetingAgenda
<hajour1> :( cant get him awake sorry
<MrChrisDruif> Oneiric you mean
<Pendulum> #topic Plans for Oneiric
<meetingology> TOPIC: Plans for Oneiric
<maco> need a macro that types out that word with right-spelling on a certain key combo
<charlie-tca> by the end of the cycle, I might get that right
<Pendulum> heh, that was actually just my finger fail
<Pendulum> so I just want to throw this pretty open for people to talk about what they'd like to work on or see worked on from the community perspective for Oneiric
<Pendulum> I can talk about things I want
<Pendulum> like, I'd love it if we could finally get all the personas done!
<AlanBell> yay
<AlanBell> so would I
<MrChrisDruif> What is the grand scheme of Ubuntu for Ocelot?
<AlanBell> I would like there to be some discussion around on-screen keyboards
<AlanBell> and getting them to work with unity
<hajour1> ok if i can get skype working i maybe can help with personas by telling info and someone else write?
<charlie-tca> +1
<AlanBell> and whether onboard is the way forward or caribou
<Pendulum> I also and this is more devel, but I want to hear from Riddell and TheMuso about what's happening with Unity 2D
<MrChrisDruif> hajour1: Doesn't Mumble work?
<AlanBell> work out which keyboard has the best long term roadmap with things like multitouch and innovative layouts
<AlanBell> stuff like steno keyboards and switch control etc
<hajour1> i explain after meeting MrChrisDruif \
<MrChrisDruif> hajour1: Alright
<maco> MrChrisDruif: Kate tells me that accessibility will be getting a bunch of focus this time around
<JanC> didn't they say that for natty too?  ;)
<Pendulum> maco: they told us that last cycle and while it did to a certain extent, I have to admit I'm not holding my breath ;-)
<maco> Pendulum: TheMuso asked in #kde-accessibility today, and QML accessibility support is in the works
<maco> a specific developer was even mentioned!
<maco> so its not just a SEP ;-)
<hajour1> i will talk much ass possible i can to the people by uds
<Cheri703> sorry, /me is late
<MrChrisDruif> Cheri703: Welcome, we just started
<Pendulum> I'm going to start putting some of the ideas so far into http://pad.ubuntu-uk.org/OneiricA11y
<maco> i'm going to try to convince someone to let me onto the installer team so i can whack ubiquity with an a11y stick
<charlie-tca> maco: cjwatson would welcome that
<maco> charlie-tca: i sent him a PM asking what the details are for joining
<Pendulum> I think we need to put on testing again
<Pendulum> because charlie-tca rocked hard on that this cycle
<hajour1> is libopenmary already in natty or where we just to late?
<MrChrisDruif> maco: Make them also downsize their memory requirement while your at it
<maco> i talked to Riddell today in #kubuntu-devel about adding kaccessible to the kubuntu cd
<maco> my attempts with it show it at least reading menus if not being totally useful on things like konsole
<Cheri703> I have a small thought on testing...
<maco> but this is a huge improvement over "this menu does nothing since hardy"
<charlie-tca> yup
<Pendulum> Cheri703: yes?
<Cheri703> I know there's a wiki page that explains the testing procedures, but...it's kind of hard to just jump into it (maybe it's just me). I was thinking that perhaps some how to videos might be good? I know there are a few around, but...I dunno
<maco> i will probably break ev's test scripts when i add useful accessible names to widgets in ubiquity :P guess i should be careful to give him heads up on those
<Cheri703> I've wanted to help with testing, but I've felt kind of lost
<charlie-tca> The problem is the speed of the changes is so fast
<Cheri703> so I'm sure others probably have as well...I don't know
<jbicha> I'm curious to see how https://live.gnome.org/Caribou is coming, I wasn't able to quite finish building it from source though
<maco> (because the test script uses the accessible name, and itll be changing to something humans can use)
<jbicha> it's Gnome's new onscreen keyboard
<charlie-tca> We get a video, and the next day it is obsolete
<Pendulum> jbicha: you and me both!
<Pendulum> jbicha: there was a long thing over the weekend with AlanBell and joanie in #a11y on Gnome's IRC server
<MrChrisDruif> jbicha: What was the old?
<maco> Pendulum: there's no hope for Dasher anymore, eh?
<maco> MrChrisDruif: Gok for GNOME, but ubuntu always used OnBoard
<jbicha> I'd like to try to get it packaged but that is likely beyond my abilities
<Cheri703> true charlie-tca 
<joanie> maco Dasher isn't hopeless. But progress on converting it away from CSPI I think was the issue
<AlanBell> jbicha: there will be .deb files (just not yet)
<charlie-tca> Dasher is a different creature than Onboard. Can't we get both into the accessibility options?
<maco> jbicha: i expect itll get packaged for oneiric by the desktop-team just because all gnome stuff seems to
<Pendulum> for those who are unaware, the issue with onBoard is that it has no developers. AFAIK it was a Google Summer of Code project and then kinda just has stayed static
<AlanBell> hi joanie 
 * MrChrisDruif would like Ubuntu going Gnome 3 for Ocelot
 * joanie waves to AlanBell 
<Cheri703> possibly have a "intro to testing" thing? like on the testing page, have a "on mondays between xtime and ytime people will be available to answer questions about testing"  I know some folks are around generally, but...just an idea
<Pendulum> I'm also unsure how Dasher will look on Unity
<jbicha> MrChrisDruif: that's already happening, just with the Unity & Unity 2D shells
<maco> joanie: sorry, what's CSPI? and i was actually referring to a specific thing Pendulum and i had talked about before, where with AT-SPI2 it was going to be losing direct input mode
<charlie-tca> Cheri703: I like that idea. I would work with you on that
<Cheri703> ok
<MrChrisDruif> Cheri703: I think a workshop would be better
<joanie> maco cspi are the c-based AT-
<joanie> SPI1 bindings
<Cheri703> perhaps start with a workshop and then ALSO have the q&a time
<charlie-tca> Pendulum: note that testing page idea, with QA weekly or monthly
<maco> joanie: and "everyone just copies and pastes from our text editor" seemed like the sort of thing someone who never uses IRC/IM would say
<Pendulum> would people (probably mostly charlie-tca) be interested in running the initial testing workshop in #ubuntu-classroom?
<MrChrisDruif> Cheri703: During and after a workshop people can ask questions...but after a workshop it's easier
<joanie> maco sorry, you lost me on that last one
<Pendulum> joanie: it was one of the early answers to 'what do we do with Dasher in Gnome3'
<charlie-tca> sure, we could do that in -classroom
<maco> Pendulum: has it changed?
<Pendulum> maco: it moved to 'well you can compile it without [forgets which bit] and it works at least somewhat'
<maco> joanie: Dasher can input into apps directly or into its own little text editor, and the direct input option was talking about being removed because "nobody uses it" but...typing into a separate window then copying & pasting everything would be annoying/slow
<maco> for conversations
<joanie> maco gotcha
<Pendulum> anyway, I think we're bikeshedding a little on the Dasher thing
<Pendulum> maybe move it to later/or the Gnome a11y channel ;-)
<maco> kk
<Pendulum> so we've got personas, Unity 2D issues, Onscreen Keyboards, Ubiquity, and Testing. What else are people interested in focusing on?
<Cheri703> visibility of the team/project...
<maco> and in with that:  developer awareness
<hajour1> UndiFineD,  is typing
<maco> i think a "Better Practices in Accessibility" session at UDS would be handy
<Cheri703> I think that a lot of people don't know that this stuff can be useful to more than just disabled folks
<charlie-tca> Pendulum: will you be able to continue the sessions with jono?
<maco> "Best Practices" might be getting a bit ahead of ourselves though ;-)
<UndiFineD> morning, one thing that bugged me for natty is, the login, it is not accessible and improvements must be made there to allow people to use on screen keyboard, fingerprint reading, facial or voice recognition
<Pendulum> charlie-tca: I have to check with him, but I think someone from a11y should be doing them
<maco> whereas i think a lot of developers have no idea they're Doin It Wrong ;-)
<Pendulum> maco: do you mean as a plenary?
<MrChrisDruif> UndiFineD: Or for security a combination of the above
<UndiFineD> yes
<maco> Pendulum: i think a plenary with some short "here's the stuff to watch for" and ending in "meet in $room at $time for a howto session" could be handy
<Pendulum> UndiFineD: that's what maco plans on working on with the installer team
<Pendulum> the question is, do we have anyone going to UDS who can run it
<Pendulum> TheMuso: are you here or are you asleep?
<maco> Pendulum: the login screen and the installer are two different things
<Cheri703> I think for people who aren't necessarily devs but might be able to help don't necessarily know about the project/needs
<Pendulum> maco: bah, that was my brain misreading
<UndiFineD> Pendulum, what do you mean by 'run' ?
<Pendulum> UndiFineD: someone who can lead it
<maco> i can add atk hints to ubiquity (now that ive sorta learned how and know what 3 lines would break it if i tried right now), and i intend to work on the live cd splash screen for kubuntu, but i dont know much about gdm or kdm, and last time i touched kdm i learned the main developer is hostile toward new folks
<UndiFineD> hajour is going to uds, she will speak up, it is what she does best
<AlanBell> someone who can stand up in front of several hundred people
<Pendulum> I think TheMuso would be the best person to lead sessions on making things accessible in terms of knowledge, but he's not here to agree
<Pendulum> (of the people I know will be at UDS)
<charlie-tca> I can if need be.
<charlie-tca> As long as I can prepare, I will be able to do either session leads or plenary
<JanC> UndiFineD: fingerprints & face recognition are no substitutes for passwords (I can explain why later), but maybe they can replace the "user chooser"...
<UndiFineD> I know JanC , but it would make things easier
<Pendulum> because for those who don't know plenaries are pretty much supposed to be of the top quality info and I feel like for such a session we need someone who has had a lot of experience with a11y development
<UndiFineD> the trouble is in modules for the login
<Pendulum> (no offense meant charlie-tca)
<maco> charlie-tca: when i get home i can dig up the gnome link thats like "10 things to make sure you do, with code examples"
<charlie-tca> I agree, Pendulum. It would be best if we get TheMuso to do them
 * Pendulum assigns herself a task
<charlie-tca> but I will take a standby on them, if you want
<maco> (and glade can do many of them if the non-coders want to help)
<MrChrisDruif> Pendulum: #action?
<Pendulum> #action Pendulum to talk to TheMuso about his running a 'best practices in a11y devel plenary/session at UDS'
<meetingology> ACTION: Pendulum to talk to TheMuso about his running a 'best practices in a11y devel plenary/session at UDS'
<MrChrisDruif> :D
<UndiFineD> :)
<Pendulum> if we don't do it this UDS (we just may not have time to really pull something good together), we should definitely do it next UDS
<Pendulum> jbicha: would you be interested in working with people this cycle on getting better documentation?
<maco> emails to ubuntu-devel on occasion to remind everyone what things to do might be obnoxiously helpful as well.  i have the impression Planet Ubuntu is too much for most devs to bother with after they've already spent 2 hours on mailing lists 
<MrChrisDruif> Pendulum: Then we should start making plans for that one as well?
<Pendulum> MrChrisDruif: not at least for another month!
<maco> for example, when documentation like Pendulum just mentioned is written/updated, notify u-d
<MrChrisDruif> Agreed, but still: keep it going. That's what I meant :)
<Pendulum> I do want to point out that we're probably going to either need to pare this down or motivate a lot more people and get a lot more done this cycle
<Pendulum> s/this/next
<joanie> Pendulum: Or alternatively partner with similar efforts upstream ;-)
<Pendulum> joanie: that would count under more people ;-)
<UndiFineD> that is true, and for that also, hajours plans to draw in volunteers
<maco> Cheri703: think you could help me with Ubiquity? a lot of what needs to be done can be done through a GUI instead of editing code
<jbicha> Pendulum: yes I can help in documentation a11y stuff
<Cheri703> maco: sure :) I may need some handholding at first, but yeah
<AlanBell> would be nice to get the ubuntu manual team to do some documentation and the official book
<UndiFineD> jbicha, great I am happy to help there
<maco> Cheri703: cool!
<Cheri703> if it's non-coding, I'm all for it :)
<Pendulum> we started out Natty cycle with lots of push and then it kinda died down for various reasons and we need to figure out how to maintain the energy this cycle
<AlanBell> was a bit poor that nobody was worried about screenshots of onboard changing
<hajour1> well now i know how to make screenshots
<UndiFineD> AlanBell, what would you like to add to the ubuntu manual ?
<jbicha> it's because the Desktop Guide didn't have any screenshots of it in the first place
<hajour1> just did not how before
<jbicha> UndiFineD: what do you mean the login screen is inaccessibile? it has the Universal Access button
<AlanBell> UndiFineD: some information on the accessibility options
<MrChrisDruif> Then the next question would be why nobody was worried it didn't have any in the first place :)
<UndiFineD> I will be happy to write accessibility documentation for this cycle
<charlie-tca> The Universal Access button is worthless to the blind people
<AlanBell> MrChrisDruif: a bug was filed against the manual
<Cheri703> ok
<Pendulum> jbicha: if only having a universal access button actually made things accessible ;-)
<UndiFineD> jbicha, does that offer an on screen keyboard ? or facial recognition ? or similar tools ?
<Pendulum> but, yeah, it's not so useful if you can't see the button to begin with
<jbicha> it offers an onscreen keyboard
<MrChrisDruif> AlanBell: How many more personas are needed?
<charlie-tca> click the button, click the next thing, then try and do something to make it accessible. Can't we make it easy to use?
<jbicha> I tried it yesterday and it works
<AlanBell> well orca does run for gdm if you install it that way
<charlie-tca> jbicha: try it blind
<UndiFineD> jbicha, then still no orca is running
<AlanBell> if you install using orca then orca will automatically start before gdm
<charlie-tca> or even with poor vision
<charlie-tca> It does not stand out there
<AlanBell> but we are drifting off topic
<UndiFineD> :)
<Cheri703> where is the button? could it be a "the button will always be the bottom right corner, move mouse a bunch of times that way and click"
 * MrChrisDruif was a bit late with the question
<jbicha> excuse me if this is rude, but how many OS's can blind people install themselves?
<charlie-tca> IT is bottom, right, over to left a bit
<Cheri703> k
<jbicha> it would be nice to get it working but there's a design challenge to it
<maco> jbicha: id be completely unsurprised if OSX was on the list
<Pendulum> let's move the install and gdm questions to later
<charlie-tca> That depends on how easy the devs make accessibility
<Pendulum> and the philosophical debates
<hajour1> right jbicha  that is why i was sugestin to make a speech program by the install cd right away
<AlanBell> MrChrisDruif: 3 to go
<Pendulum> okay, so we've got a bunch of ideas up on http://pad.ubuntu-uk.org/OneiricA11y now
<Pendulum> maco: I'm correct that the Ubiquity a11y stuff has its own blueprint for UDS, right?
<maco> Pendulum: yes
<maco> desktop-o-ubiquity-a11y i think?
<MrChrisDruif> AlanBell: Thanks
 * webczat would like to have a shortcut key for enabling orca
<Pendulum> we need to think about the Community a11y blueprint
<Pendulum> which I can't be the drafter on because I won't be at UDS
<charlie-tca> maco: desktop-o-accessibility-ubiquity
<maco> whoops
<MrChrisDruif> webczat: Apparently it's started before GDM if you install it with Orca enabled...
<Pendulum> Cheri703: charlie-tca, does one of you want to own that blueprint and start it and submit it for scheduling?
<MrChrisDruif> And you can set your own shortcuts...
<webczat> MrChrisDruif: yes, but if you want to have an accessible login on an orca disabled system, it's useful to be able to enable it.
<MrChrisDruif> But 1 single default shortcuts might be good webczat
<charlie-tca> sure,
<Cheri703> thanks charlie-tca I'm still new to this stuff
<charlie-tca> Pendulum: I thought Luke owned it, since he drafted it
<charlie-tca> byt I will take it
<Pendulum> charlie-tca: this is a community team blueprint
<Pendulum> his is devel
<charlie-tca> Okay, I will take it
<Pendulum> charlie-tca: awesome. I'm happy to help if you need any help setting it up/submitting it
<charlie-tca> yup, I will get with you, probably tomorrow
<Pendulum> #action charlie-tca to set up Community a11y blueprint for UDS-O
<meetingology> ACTION: charlie-tca to set up Community a11y blueprint for UDS-O
<Riddell> maco: you poked me?
<Riddell> Pendulum: I know nothing about Unity 2D, I do KDE not Gnomey things
<webczat> the thing is that orca is started by gdm, this is gdm's feature to be able to check some checkbox after clicking an icon and then a screenreader always gets loaded, but I can't easily get to the dialog.
<Pendulum> Riddell: I thought Unity 2D was Qt and QML based and that was why you got poked about qt-at-spi?
<maco> Riddell: i was poking you about our conversation earlier. she was poking about qml
<Riddell> Pendulum: yes I believe it is
<webczat> like ctrl+alt+tab and then (my god, where am i?) :)
<hajour1> if i am correct is the gnome part what makes orca not  easy useble for leight weight programs right?
<Pendulum> okay, is there anything else people would like to stick on the etherpad to see if it can be discussed at UDS in terms of getting it done?
<charlie-tca> hajour1: right. Xfce 4.10 is going to include screen-reader suport
<hajour1> is ;ibopenmary already in natty ?
<hajour1> libopenmary i mean
<webczat> I think someone in gdm should add a key for the universal access thing, and then it won't be a problem to tab few times and press space.
<UndiFineD> JackyAlcine, ^ ?
<charlie-tca> I don't show anything libopenmary in natty
<AlanBell> is it in debian?
<jbicha> webczat: I agree
<hajour1> because that gnome part caused screen freeze by my old notebook and my youngest daughters pc
<webczat> jbicha: yeah. you can write somewhere how many times you need to press tab and then space, but because the panel remembers the last position, you can't write how many times to tab to get to the accessibility icon.
<Cheri703> are we still doing meeting things?
<Pendulum> okay, so I think we've gotten through the agenda items
<MrChrisDruif> hajour1: It might be best to get it into Debian, then it will automatically get into Ubuntu afaik
<Pendulum> #topic Any other Business
<meetingology> TOPIC: Any other Business
<jbicha> I'm new to a11y so I knew logging in was possible by keyboard or mouse but you're right it doesn't look possible for a blind user
<Pendulum> Does anyone have anything else they want to bring up for the meeting?
<MrChrisDruif> Maybe the DEX program is suited for that...for "easily" getting it into Debian I mean
<Pendulum> I guess not
<Pendulum> thanks everyone for coming!
<Pendulum> #endmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting ended Wed Apr 27 21:55:56 2011 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/AlanBell . (v 0.1.4)
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://mootbot.libertus.co.uk/ubuntu-accessibility/2011/ubuntu-accessibility.2011-04-27-21.05.moin.txt
<hajour1> jbicha,  best would be a speech read program what would be installed same time with install ubuntu
<webczat> jbicha: it's possible by keyboard, because I know, for example, when the user list begins or ends and when I'm at the login prompt, I just need to know where am i.
<AlanBell> thanks Pendulum 
<charlie-tca> Thanks for chairing, Pendulum 
<Pendulum> np
<hajour1> sorry i cant type that fast Pendulum 
<AlanBell> hajour1: stuff doesn't get into ubuntu generally until it gets into debian
<AlanBell> hajour1: is libopenmary in a ppa or somewhere it can be tested at least?
<hajour1> then we need to try to get it there
<joanie> AlanBell: Really, so the "trickle down" is gnome (or whatever) -> Debian -> Ubuntu?
<UndiFineD> AlanBell, yes
<AlanBell> and this is the thing that plugs openmary into speech dispatcher right?
<AlanBell> joanie: basically yes
<AlanBell> debian is the main upstream
<webczat> jbicha: but it's good that you can at all select a screenreader and if accessibility on gdm is at all enabled, it will start up immediately.
<AlanBell> however there are exceptions
<hajour1> it not need to nessacery to  be libopenmary just if there will be a speech program
<UndiFineD> AlanBell, : https://launchpad.net/~speechcontrol-devel
<TheMuso> Sorry folks, totally forgot about the meeting... That kinda happens when you have a 5 day long weekend. :)
<AlanBell> hajour1: have you used orca?
<Pendulum> AlanBell: she can't because she can't use Gnome
<UndiFineD> AlanBell, http://dl.dropbox.com/u/7607669/SC/appdiagram.png
<hajour1> not after my old notebook AlanBell  there it was a metal voice
<hajour1> what was hurting my ears AlanBell 
<Pendulum> TheMuso: no worries! I'm going to poke you later or e-mail you about something, but otherwise we just did a massive brainstorm in http://pad.ubuntu-uk.org/OneiricA11y
<AlanBell> yeah, espeak is a bit harsh
<TheMuso> Sure.
<hajour1> this is not my pc i have no pc at this moment AlanBell 
<TheMuso> Espeak? Harsh? No way!
 * joanie laughs
<AlanBell> hajour1: however orca just pumps stuff out to speech dispatcher
<webczat> usefulnes is more important I think :)
 * Pendulum giggles
<JanC> well, I know somebody who prefers the espeak voices over the "better" ones
<TheMuso> I prefer espeak period.
<webczat> I also like it.
<JanC> because he can tell espeak to talk 50% faster and it's still understandable
<AlanBell> UndiFineD: I don't understand that diagram
<AlanBell> it is just a bunch of words on a page
 * MrChrisDruif hasn't used any of them
<joanie> TheMuso: The Spanish Festival voices rock though.
<hajour1> what i mean is that i not know how orca is now AlanBell 
<JanC> but I can understand it's different for other users...
<MrChrisDruif> AlanBell: You put in one deaf person?
<Pendulum> joanie: now I'm tempted to set up Festival just to see what they sound like :P
<MrChrisDruif> For the personas?
<TheMuso> joanie: Sure thats great if you like spanish.
<hajour1> TheMuso,  i not now how orca sounds now
<TheMuso> My complaint with Festival is the size of the voices.
<webczat> the same I think hmm
<joanie> TheMuso: :-) My point is though, it is apparently possible to make festival not suck
<Pendulum> haha
<TheMuso> Well thats a good thing... I guess.
<joanie> Brailcom apparently did new Czech voices
<TheMuso> Yeah I read.
<webczat> Espeak is probably the easiest to use linux synthesizer.
<joanie> having said that, I'm old enough to remember when all speech synthesizers were hardware. ;-)
<hajour1> TheMuso,  the last time i tried orca was more then a month ago
<webczat> around 50 languages (one better, another sucks) but still. without voice installation.
<charlie-tca> Opportunity knocking... learn spanish or czech to use the *good* voices :-)
<joanie> charlie-tca: Or alternatively, invest in improving the quality of the other voices
<joanie> be they the espeak ones or the festival ones
<charlie-tca> well, yeah, that too
<JanC> joanie: I remember the first "software synthesizer" I saw was in the early 1990s, but it was barely understandable  ;)
<TheMuso> joanie: I still have a couple of hardware synths actually, and would like to use them again one day, when I can find time to write a speech-dispatcher driver for them.
<AlanBell> UndiFineD: just read the code for libopenmary, still don't see what it does, but it isn't a speech dispatcher plugin
<hajour1> TheMuso,  do you go also to uds?
<TheMuso> hajour1: Yes.
<MrChrisDruif> AlanBell: why did you add a deaf person, if I may ask? I've used my Ubuntu countless of time muted no problems :-/
 * joanie still has a dectalk express in a closet
<JanC> it was less than 1k lines of Pascal code though
<webczat> joanie: hardware synthesizers are sometimes better.
<webczat> I have one and it rox
<hajour1> i would love to talk to you to learn a lot more about all from speech programs TheMuso 
<TheMuso> joanie: I have 2 of them, and a doubletalk. I also have a Dectalk PC card lying around somewhere too.
<charlie-tca> MrChrisDruif: is not deaf a disability too?
<hajour1> i learn a lot more better by hearing TheMuso 
<webczat> for example because it's connected to the serial port instead of being an application using a soundcard, and the serial port drivers are easy to make.
<AlanBell> MrChrisDruif: using it for communication, like minicom etc
<charlie-tca> I use a bell to tell me when someone specifically wants to talk to me in IRC
<charlie-tca> without it, I miss half the messages
<MrChrisDruif> charlie-tca: Yes, being deaf is a disability too....but like I said: muted == no problems :D
<UndiFineD> AlanBell, libopenmary is just a library in between, there is still a thing to be made to link speechdispatcher and libopenmary
<MrChrisDruif> AlanBell: How do you mean?
<hajour1> because i am also going to uds TheMuso 
<TheMuso> hajour1: Awesome.
<hajour1> if you have time offcourse TheMuso 
<maco> MrChrisDruif: i can think of one
 * webczat points at speakup screenreader thing
<MrChrisDruif> maco: Please share :)
 * TheMuso shudders... Speakup, yuck!
<maco> MrChrisDruif: i have a friend who annoyed her coworkers for MONTHS because she had no idea that every time her visual bell was going off it was also BEEPing very loudly
<maco> when you turn on the visual bell, nothing asks whether you want to disable the noisy one too
<hajour1> great TheMuso  i looking forward to it
<MrChrisDruif> maco: Alright, never knew / thought about that :)
<JanC> MrChrisDruif: if you are deaf *and* blind things are somewhat more complicated though  ;)
<maco> though i think a lot of what needs to be done on the deaf front is more community-facing:  convince people transcripts are good
<TheMuso> The bell stuff is actually quite complicated.
<JanC> MrChrisDruif: ask erkan^ ...
<AlanBell> UndiFineD: what is the library *for*?
<TheMuso> And I don't think many people, if any, understand it properly.
 * Pendulum goes for food before she passes out. 
<MrChrisDruif> JanC: Indeed...but that would be a separate persona 
<Pendulum> catch y'all later!
<joanie> http://2009.hfoss.org/VizAudio
<hajour1> o i wanted to ask something
<maco> TheMuso: and she's a fedora user, so hers probably did it differently than ubuntu's does anyway (we have hardware bell disabled in favour of soft bell, right?)
<charlie-tca> Okay, I have to write up my natty release notes for Xubuntu now
<UndiFineD> AlanBell, it makes it easier for c programs to link to openmary
<AlanBell> hmm
<MrChrisDruif> charlie-tca: good luck
<TheMuso> maco: Yes, thats right. For GNOME, all bell audio playback is handeled by libcanberra, however compiz doesn't have proper support for this yet, something that I need to fix.
<AlanBell> that would be a bad idea UndiFineD 
<hajour1> is there someone here who can make a technical drawing from a aquipment?
 * webczat likes the speakup thing because when using a hardware synthesizer, it can speak some early system bootup messages pre-initrd
<AlanBell> they should be linking to speech dispatcher
<MrChrisDruif> maco: Transcripts? What do you mean?
<TheMuso> webczat: Yeah, but IMO if a distro like Ubuntu is used, thats less important, and if something fails, then you have bigger problems.
<maco> MrChrisDruif: most people dont think about transcribing video tutorials
<UndiFineD> AlanBell, no it is not, it makes browserspeak possible
<maco> wait thats for blind
<hajour1> TheMuso,  you now also what libopenmary is 
<maco> bah brain is going backwards
<AlanBell> and what is browserspeak?
<maco> i meant subtitling
<TheMuso> hajour1: I have an idea yes.
<hajour1> maybe can youy explain it to AlanBell 
<MrChrisDruif> maco: I don't know what transcribing is? Is that like subtitling?
<TheMuso> hajour1: But not 100% sure. I know its something to do with speech synthesis...
<MrChrisDruif> Ahh...subtitling :)
<maco> MrChrisDruif: well actually, could be both....
<JanC> MrChrisDruif: makign a script that explains everything that happens
<maco> MrChrisDruif:  transcribing is making a script of it. subtitling is putting that script straight in
<JanC> a "script" similar to a film or theater script 
<MrChrisDruif> What the system is doing?
<maco> transcribing, if more detailed than just what was said (including visual descriptions) can be useful for blindness too
<maco> (at least, i would think so...)
<JanC> MrChrisDruif: what the video is showing
<maco> MrChrisDruif: this is more to do with video documentation that people in the community make though
<maco> but also, improving subtitling software would be nice
<maco> because having tried it:  ugh
<UndiFineD> so, se selct a bunch of text in the browser, browserspeak passes it to libopenmary, which passes it to openmary, it gets processed and a few seconds later, the text is spoken
<MrChrisDruif> Yeah, but what about transcribing the system?
<hajour1> TheMuso,  see line above from UndiFineD 
<maco> if you're deaf-blind, your screenreader should be pushing out to a braille tty
<maco> since just plain spoken screenreading won't work
<TheMuso> Right, so openmary is a speech synth.
<TheMuso> So apps that want to use it should go through speech dispatcher.
<webczat> orca can do it
<AlanBell> UndiFineD: so like orca does anyway, but via speech dispatcher
<hajour1> yes TheMuso 
<TheMuso> And openmary needs a speech dispatcher sdriver
<AlanBell> TheMuso: it does
<UndiFineD> correct TheMuso 
<AlanBell> so libopenmary isn't a speech dispatcher driver for openmary
<webczat> the bes packet. speech dispatcher + a hardware synth + speakup + orca + brltty :o
<JanC> it might be needed for a speed dispatcher driver?
<maco> i should be seeing a deaf friend from Red Hat in a couple weeks, possibly also meeting up with some comp sci teachers from the local deaf uni as well, so "what would be useful" is something i'll be sure to ask
<UndiFineD> no, it is a step in between
<hajour1> sometimes its very nice to have someone who can translate it :) TheMuso 
<JanC> isn't OpenMary in Java or soemthing like that?
<maco> MrChrisDruif: oh, something else i remember another deaf friend saying about electronics in general:  vibration haptics need to be stronger in some devices
<UndiFineD> JanC, yes
<AlanBell> JanC: it is in java but there is a web REST API to it
<AlanBell> feed in text, get back sounds
<hajour1> nice maco  i appriciate your suggestions with vibrasound
<JanC> ow, that should make it easy to use
 * joanie waves and wanders off
<MrChrisDruif> maco: I wasn't planning on some sissy vibrations :D
<TheMuso> So given speech-dispatcher's speech driver model, it certainly wouldn't be hard to write an openmary driver then.
<MrChrisDruif> hajour1: Name needs to be rethought probably...
<hajour1> yes ofcours MrChrisDruif  but needed to name it for now
<AlanBell> TheMuso: not at all
<hajour1> i am searching for a person who canb make a cat drawing
<AlanBell> in fact could probably be done with config files and the standard openmary toolset
<hajour1> cad i mean
<hajour1> bah language mistakes
<MrChrisDruif> hajour1: If you're going to announce vibrasound @ UDS, then make sure that it's only a development name! :)
<hajour1> i think we need to be further before we go talk about that at uds MrChrisDruif 
<MrChrisDruif> Just making sure O:-)
<hajour1> it need to have more shape for launching
<JanC> you can always mention it & as an experimental project  ;)
<hajour1> i now MrChrisDruif :)
<hajour1> it would help when we have a technical drawing from it but it is short time before uds
<TheMuso> AlanBell: Possibly, but a native driver would allow for callbacks etc.
<hajour1> but i not yet have found a person who can make that
<AlanBell> TheMuso: understood, just wondering if I can hack something together with the generic driver to see how it sounds when saying the right stuff
<TheMuso> AlanBell: Yeah you very likely could.
<hajour1> great if you would try it out AlanBell 
<hajour1> and give feedback ofcourse AlanBell 
<UndiFineD> the online demo is not working at the moment, browserspeak works great, and I am looking into xchat plugins to make it work there as well
<hajour1> :(
<jbicha> error message in Banshee: "Exception has been thrown by the target of an invocation."
<maco> useful
<hajour1> jbicha,  what means invocation?
<maco> hajour1: like "call"
<hajour1> mm ok
<TheMuso> Yay mono.
<hajour1> not very clear then not to me anyway
<UndiFineD> pretty much a useless exception
<AlanBell> yeah, this will work
<hajour1> can we mail them to explain more?
<hajour1> just a sugestion
<jbicha> keyboard shortcut bugs are accessibility right?
<hajour1> do you mean libopenmary AlanBell  or something else?
<jbicha> is there a tag for that?
<AlanBell> cool, well it looks like orca+openMary will work without too much trouble, but it is late here and the release tomorrow, might get it done over the weekend
<hajour1> great AlanBell 
<UndiFineD> hah AlanBell :)
<AlanBell> hajour1: there is no need for libopenmary which is great as it means no new packages
<AlanBell> just get openmary itself into debian and a config file in /etc/speech-dispatcher
<UndiFineD> that would be great
<JanC> hm, doesn't speech dispatcher use some complicated XML format?  or was that its predecessor?
<TheMuso> No.
<TheMuso> Speech-dispatcher uses simple text config files.
<TheMuso> Although that may change in the future.
<TheMuso> Speech-dispatcher currently uses a library for config files that is not really maintained much upstream.
<JanC> I mean to send text to the speech synth?
<hajour1> that would be great AlanBell  if that is possible
<TheMuso> Oh right.
<TheMuso> Speech-dispatcher has its own API, but uses SSML to speak to synths that support it.
<AlanBell> JanC: http://dhvani.sourceforge.net/tools/dhvani-generic.conf example generic config file
<hajour1> AlanBell,  if that succeed is orca then also useful for leightweight pc s ?
<JanC> I think I looked into it something like 3-4 years ago, so things might have changed  ;)
<AlanBell> this is where the magic happens ->   GenericExecuteSynth "echo \"$DATA\" > /tmp/sddhvani | /usr/bin/dhvani /tmp/sddhvani"
<JanC> nice, I have some 3-4 year old project to finish then  ;)
<AlanBell> make a command line which turns $DATA into sound using your favourite speech synth
<JanC> or maybe older
<charlie-tca> jbicha: a11y
 * MrChrisDruif goes to bed...Aloha!
<hajour1> goodnight MrChrisDruif \
<hajour1> if anyone hears from a person who have the skill to make a technical drawing .....
 * hajour1 wishes she had get more education in past and coald make it herself
<hajour1> and maco   your sugestions helps very to make the vibrasound equipment really useble
<hajour1> already hoped you would give comment maco 
<TheMuso> 7/c
<hajour1> what do 7/c TheMuso ?
<hajour1> what do it means i meant
<hajour1> sorry i not know all that signs yet
<JanC> he probably mistyped an IRC command to change to another channel or so  âº
<TheMuso> It was a typo.
<hajour1> a ok sorry misunderstood then TheMuso 
<AlanBell> so if you install openMary and go to this url (with a browser or wget or curl or something) http://localhost:59125/process?INPUT_TEXT=Hello+to+the+Ubuntu+Accessibility+team&INPUT_TYPE=TEXT&OUTPUT_TYPE=AUDIO&AUDIO=WAVE_FILE&LOCALE=en_US
<AlanBell> you get a wav file that sounds like this: http://people.ubuntu.com/~alanbell/mary.wav
<AlanBell> so the config file needs to do a curl to that kind of URL, pop the wav file in /tmp and play it
<AlanBell> really going to bed this time
<JanC> you need to learn it how to pronounce Ubuntu though   ;)
<AlanBell> can be done
<JanC> well, not "you" 
<AlanBell> there are rules based pronounciation corrections
<AlanBell> it gets gnome right
<webczat> don't remind me how espeak speaks "w ubuntu" in polish. :d nevermind
<hajour1> ok thanks again for helping AlanBell 
<hajour1> and goodnight AlanBell 
<hajour1> lol webczat 
<webczat> it looks like "wooboodoo"
<hajour1> XD
#ubuntu-accessibility 2011-04-28
<TheMuso> Wow. That open mary sample sounds better than I thought.
<hajour1> :))) prudence or spike TheMuso ?
<TheMuso> Although getting that file to be heard via speech dispatcher wil take a few more cycles with a generic config file, so will not be as responsive as a native driver may be.
<TheMuso> hajour1: The sample AlanBell created and linked to.
<UndiFineD> TheMuso, prudence or spike ?
<TheMuso> I don't know.
<hajour1> we hear nothing TheMuso  on that sample
<TheMuso> http://people.ubuntu.com/~alanbell/mary.wav
<TheMuso> thats the one I am referring to./
<hajour1> can be that our sound settings not are right TheMuso 
<TheMuso> Possibly.
<hajour1> need to test that out first
<hajour1> but its 1:19 in night and need to go to the doctor with my youngest at 8:00 in morning
<hajour1> need some sleep to
<hajour1> i go try to figure it out tomorrow further TheMuso 
<TheMuso> hajour1: ok.
<hajour1> hi Pendulum  wb
<hajour1> just have told the good news in speechcontrol
<hajour1> is just they need good news
<hajour1> but i will be here in evening tomorrow TheMuso  in day i appointment with doctors and homecleaner comes
<hajour1> goodnight for later all
<Pendulum> g'night hajour1 
<hajour1> :)
<webczat> Going to sleep, bye.
<Pendulum> oh, completely forgot to mention at meeting
<Pendulum> Blogging Against Disablism Day is Sunday
<Pendulum> http://blobolobolob.blogspot.com/2011/04/blogging-against-disablism-day-will-be.html
<TheMuso> Cool.
 * TheMuso reads.
<AlanBell> I got openmary working with speech dispatcher
<UndiFineD> AlanBell, nice !
<hajour1> just have read by UndiFineD  screen.
<hajour1> great AlanBell 
<UndiFineD> AlanBell, any repeatable steps ?
<AlanBell> yeah, will give you the files in a sec
<AlanBell> I also just installed an openmary server on a fast server I have
<AlanBell> http://mumble.libertus.co.uk:59125/
<AlanBell> and I installed a few of the hmm voices
<AlanBell> there are plenty more, I just picked good ones
<AlanBell> I think I will set obadiah as the default for now
<AlanBell> ok, so what you need to do is download this file http://people.ubuntu.com/~alanbell/openmary.conf
<AlanBell> and put it in /etc/speech-dispatcher/modules/
<AlanBell> then edit /etc/speech-dispatcher/speechd.conf
<AlanBell> and add a line AddModule "openmary" "sd_generic" "openmary.conf"
<AlanBell> where all the other AddModule bits are
<AlanBell> http://people.ubuntu.com/~alanbell/speechd.conf <- like in that one
<AlanBell> then sudo killall speech-dispatcher (in case it is already running)
<AlanBell> then
<AlanBell> spd-say -o openmary "wow, this sounds awesome"
<AlanBell> spd-say "compared with this which is the espeak voice"
<AlanBell> and in your orca preferences you can select the openmary speech synthesiser on the speech tab
<hajour1> reading back  was adjust colours from chat
<AlanBell> would be kind of interested to know if that works for people
<UndiFineD> it seems my sound is broken
<UndiFineD> i get a lot of static
<UndiFineD> overruling my audio output still hearable in a faint background
<UndiFineD> keimpe@undifined:~$ spd-say -o openmary "wow, this sounds awesome"
<UndiFineD> client: Speech Dispatcher failed to open: No such file or directory
<UndiFineD> keimpe@undifined:~$ spd-say "compared with this which is the espeak voice"
<UndiFineD> client: Speech Dispatcher failed to open: No such file or directory
<AlanBell> ok, so you need to fix that anyway
<AlanBell> if speech dispatcher isn't working with espeak then orca won't work anyway
<hajour1> AlanBell,  i will go try today or it will work on my oldest daughter pc
<hajour1> AlanBell,  i think i miss some program or something like that on my daughters pc from java script
<hajour1> need to go to the bank so
<hajour1> i completly forgot my pin code from my bank pas last week
<AlanBell> ok, it just works on a default ubuntu install with firefox or chromium
<hajour1> i not dared to try to put in third pin code i was afraid i would block my banking card
<hajour1>  my daughter wants her pc back and i need to go to the bank to
<hajour1> <hajour1> so i probarly will be back again in the evening
<maco> https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/desktop-o-kubuntu-accessibility
<maco> Pendulum: ^
<UndiFineD> maco :)
<pleia2> so, the Hungarian team is going to help us get to the Invisible Exhibition on Wednesday (couldn't get Thursday dinner to work), would it be worthwhile advertising this on the accessibility blog? we'll need people to sign up for it beforehand since space at the exhibition is limited, we're going to use loco directory for this
<pleia2> er, at UDS
<paul_h1> hi all, a while back we were talking about changing an installed ubuntu natty system over from using unity to using classic gnome-panel without sight. was a way found to do this please?
<maco> paul_h1: the login screen should allow it but im not sure what the key sequence is to open the options menu
<paul_h1> yeah, I know it can be done from the login screen but the key sequence (if one exists) is what I need
<JackyAlcine> AlanBell, how did you get speech dispatcher and libopenmary working? 
<JackyAlcine> I was still trying to write the extension for speechd.
<maco> i dont have a natty system here :(
<paul_h1> TheMuso: are you about?
<maco> paul_h1: i asked in #ubuntu-devel and someone went and tried and couldnt figure out how to do it with keyboard
<maco> TheMuso: https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/desktop-o-kubuntu-accessibility may want to subscribe to that
<maco> (and mark essential?)
<paul_h1> maco: damn, well thanks for asking
<maco> TheMuso: for once, it actually makes sense for a11y folks to talk to kde people, so... 
<maco> paul_h1: im asking another person in case it takes multiple heads
<maco> (i use kubuntu, so if i were near my natty box, it wouldnt have gdm or classic ubuntu or unity or any of that anyway)
<maco> jbicha: yes this channel is why i was asking
<paul_h1> maco: I don't have that option yet, kde a11y support not ready yet
<jbicha> does anyone know how to access the bottom panel in the GDM login screen via keyboard?
<maco> paul_h1: i just learned that a screenreader was written in the last couple months
<maco> paul_h1: i tried it a couple days ago. for normal widgets it works alright
<maco> unfortunately, the terminal widget in konsole and khtml in konqueror are special widgets that dont yet have a11y extensions
<maco> jbicha: thats what paul_h1 is trying to ask. you were my choice for guinea pig #2
<maco> jbicha: (pitt was guinea pig #1)
<maco> *pitti
<maco> paul_h1: anyway, i'll be working on getting the new kde screenreader into kubuntu's default install in 11.10 and getting a way to turn it on when the live cd starts up and use it throughout install and all and turn on automatically on installed systems if they were installed in accessible mode (just like ubuntu does right now)
<jbicha> I was trying yesterday and somehow I managed to access the "shutdown menu" by keyboard but it didn't help with the other menus
<maco> well, except hopefully better, because ubuntu's installer says silly useless things like variable names and i intend to fix THAT too
<paul_h1> maco: what's this screen reader for kde called? I thought the plan was to get Orca to be able to read kde
<maco> paul_h1: KAccessible
<maco> paul_h1: support for AT-SPI2 was in the works but AT-SPI2 got so behind that Qt people just went and made their own framework (QAccessible) which KAccessible uses
<paul_h1> maco: does it use at-spi?
<maco> paul_h1: no
<maco> there's a semi-working bridge for making QAccessible work with the little bit of AT-SPI2 that exists
<maco> old AT-SPI had some only-works-if-you-include-gnome-libs stuff going on, is what i've gathered. meanwhile at-spi2 is d-bus based, so it can work for both, if it ever gets finished
<maco> at the moment, if you want to have screenreading for both gnome & kde apps, you need to have two screenreaders running
<maco> as at-spi2 and the qt-at-spi bridge improve, that'll change
<paul_h1> maco: I was under the impression that the d-bus at-spi was basically finished. just needs testing
<maco> mmm maybe? but it was supposed to be finished like 2 years ago
<maco> hence the "kde got tired of waiting"
<maco> qt-at-spi is in alpha mode right now
<paul_h1> quite, lack of resources, not will on the part of the gnome a11y team though
<maco> QML does not have QAccessible support yet
<maco> we're being told by the kde team that it's being worked on, so we're all crossing our fingers for Unity 2D in 11.10 to be accessibl
<maco> e
<paul_h1> yeah, I know there are some people who will need the qml unity to be accessible
<TheMuso> maco: Thanks.
<TheMuso> Accessing the bottom panel in gdm is done with Control + Alt + Tab.
<TheMuso> Rather clunky IMO.
<paul_h1> TheMuso: quick question if I may, do I need to create the same /etc/sudoers.d/ file with Natty  as in Maverick to get Orca to work with apps ran with sudo?
<TheMuso> at-spi2 is pretty much complete API wise, its just internal stability and IPC stuff that needs improving now afaik.
<TheMuso> paul_h1: Yes.
<paul_h1> TheMuso: thanks. just installed natty on a new machine but couldn't get the blindness profile on boot
<TheMuso> hrm ok.
<TheMuso> maco: Subscribed.
<paul_h1> TheMuso: so is there a way to switch to classic gnome in natty from gdm via the keyboard?
<charlie-tca> paul_h1: there is a way, if you can use a terminal
<charlie-tca> it requires editing ~/.dmrc
<maco> paul_h1: apparently step one is ctrl+alt+tab
<maco> jbicha: can you try figuring out keyboard movements after the ctrl+alt+tab step?
<TheMuso> Hang on, let me grab another machine and run through it there.
<jbicha> no, step one is Enter
<maco> jbicha: Enter? to do what?
<TheMuso> Unfortunately this procedure will require a way to check the current location of the session combo box.
<jbicha> well you have to select the user you want before you can choose the session
<maco> since when?
<jbicha> it's been that way at least since the new gdm a few releases ago
<maco> silly sounding
<TheMuso> Ok, assuming you ahven't changed any session settinsg for the user: enter to select user, then: control + alt + tab, tab 4 times, enter, down arrow once, enter, control + alt + tab.
<maco> TheMuso: would it take a miracle to get a screenreader working on gdm?
<jbicha> or Enter, CTRL+ALT+TAB, left, down, then you can CTRL+ALT+TAB to get back to your password field
<TheMuso> maco: If there was UI to do it from a logged in session, no, but yes, unless you want to hand set gconf values.
<maco> this channel's gonna turn me into a mac user 
<TheMuso> lol
<TheMuso> Gdm is still rather bad a11y wise IMO.
<TheMuso> If lightdm is adopted, I will be working with Robert et al to make sure its actually easy to enable a11y.
<maco> cant canonical find another sound person so you can do a11y full-time?
<TheMuso> That would be nice, but I don't feel I am in a position to push that.
<paul_h> TheMuso: your instructions worked, thanks heaps
<TheMuso> paul_h: Np.
<charlie-tca> I wrote those down this time, too
<paul_h> charlie-tca: yeah, we need a complete set of instructions for doing accessible installs 
<charlie-tca> yeah, we knoiw
<charlie-tca> I only wrote the first test case three times, to have it wrong by the end
<charlie-tca> Hopefully, we will do better for the next release, since unity is now there
<TheMuso> Well I plan to make it easier to enable accessibility for oneiric. It doesn't require a blueprint on its own, but will be talked about in the ubiquity accessibility review blueprint.
<charlie-tca> That would be great! 
<TheMuso> It basically means setting up keyboard shortcuts or mouse gestures for the first screen one sees when booting the live image, i.e ht escreen where you choose to try or install Ubuntu.
<TheMuso> So then screen comes up, how we will let the user know about this yet I don't know, maybe play the login sound.
<paul_h> TheMuso: ubiquity accessibility review? will this be an open thing? would like to be present / witness to it
<TheMuso> Then they press a shortcut to load Orca, and then things proceed on from there.
<TheMuso> paul_h: Yes, its a proposed blueprint for UDS O.
<charlie-tca> You are going to try to enable orca from there? That would be so much easier than what we have to do now.
 * charlie-tca thinks we done good considering where we started for Natty :-)
<TheMuso> Yes I am.
<paul_h> TheMuso: orca is already capable of reading the try / instal screen. if you restart gdm after enabling accessibility orca reads that dialogue to you
<TheMuso> paul_h: I know, but we can make it accessible from the word go.
<TheMuso> And a keyboard shortcut.
<charlie-tca> and a sound when the screen appears, too? 
<paul_h> TheMuso: absolutely
<charlie-tca> win/win
<TheMuso> charlie-tca: Yes.
<TheMuso> I'm already starting to think about the technical side of how this will be achieved.
<charlie-tca> Okay! I will stick around for another go at things, then. Let me know when to test it, and I will be ready
<TheMuso> Ok, won't be for a w hile though, this is for oneiric.
<charlie-tca> no problem
<charlie-tca> I will upgrade my system around alpha1, since I test everything. 
<TheMuso> I should also have a look at oemconfig as well, ad see what can be done a11y wise there too.
<charlie-tca> I never thought about that. That would be good too.
<charlie-tca> Xfce 4.10 is working towards accessibility, too.
<TheMuso> Yeah I know.
<TheMuso> When is XFCE 4.10 due to be released?
<TheMuso> Yeah, there is certainly enough work here to be a full time job.
<paul_h> charlie-tca: is a bug while selecting keyboard layouts in natty's ubiquity known about? I had to abort an install and start again because of it
<charlie-tca> yes, I think it is already reported
<charlie-tca> TheMuso: another year
<charlie-tca> about in time for 12.04
<TheMuso> Ah ok.
<TheMuso> I really should set up a VM to test it at some point.
#ubuntu-accessibility 2011-04-29
<charlie-tca> They aren't very far with it yet, but I can use orca with Xubuntu
<charlie-tca> It just takes more work to get it going, since I have to install and start ati-sp-registryd
<charlie-tca> that's not right, should be at-api-registryd
<charlie-tca> that's not right, should be at-spi-registryd
<TheMuso> at-spi-registryd
<TheMuso> Right.
<TheMuso> c
<charlie-tca> lol
<charlie-tca> well, I guess I have to go try and eat something. 
<paul_h> really shouldn't have started this distro upgrade on my machine that's already running ubuntu. gonna take hours. guess the ubuntu servers are swamped
<TheMuso> paul_h: That they are.
<AlanBell> JackyAlcine: I just made a generic driver for it
<AlanBell> not using libopenmary, I didn't understand that
<AlanBell> JackyAlcine: http://people.ubuntu.com/~alanbell/openmary.conf
<AlanBell> JackyAlcine: put that in /etc/speech-dispatcher/modules
<TheMuso> ooo. Oneiric changes list now exists...
<AlanBell> JackyAlcine: then in /etc/speech-dispatcher/speechd.conf add a line to load the module
 * TheMuso subscribes.
<AlanBell> AddModule "openmary" "sd_generic" "openmary.conf"
<AlanBell> JackyAlcine: then restart speech-dispatcher, then you should be good
<JackyAlcine> Very interesting; I wonder if we can build a package for this..
<paul_h> AlanBell: this is a generic sd driver for a new synth?
<AlanBell> pleia2: yes yes yes!
<AlanBell> paul_h: yes
<AlanBell> JackyAlcine: or roll it into the speech dispatcher package or something
<TheMuso> Best thing would be to get it into speech-dispatcher upstream.
<AlanBell> would be trivial to point to a local openmary, but that one points to a fairly powerful server I put up
<JackyAlcine> Indeed, but then openmary would have to be packaged and made a dependency of speechd if that's done, no?
<JackyAlcine> And I remember hearing that packing Java applications is a bit tedious than the conventional process.
<paul_h> AlanBell: do you have a link to where I can hear a sample?
<AlanBell> JackyAlcine: well the fun part of this is that I accepted the licenses y
<AlanBell> JackyAlcine: well the fun part of this is that I accepted the licenses so you don't have to
<AlanBell> paul_h: yes, one sec . . .
<AlanBell> paul_h: have fun -> http://mumble.libertus.co.uk:59125/
<AlanBell> paul_h: try different voices
<AlanBell> JackyAlcine: have a look at the openmary.conf file, it just does curl to a remote totally standard openmary instance
<AlanBell> JackyAlcine: would be nice to get the parameters like volume and language/locale and voice working
 * AlanBell is a bit drunk right now so don't ask difficult questions
<JackyAlcine> Lol
<JackyAlcine> But those can be manipulated via query parameters in the URI request.
<AlanBell> the release party was great and skaet is nice
<JackyAlcine> http://mary.dfki.de:59125/documentation
<AlanBell> JackyAlcine: yeah, they can, but they need to be passed through from orca to speech dispatcher to openmary
<AlanBell> $data is the text to say
<JackyAlcine> Hmm, perhaps have an alternate application that modifies such settings and allow the conf read it from disk or some alternative location?
<AlanBell> meh
<AlanBell> there are parameters to put in the curl string
<pleia2> AlanBell: ok, I'll write up a draft post once I get the loco directory link :)
<AlanBell> like $volume $language etc
<AlanBell> $voice
<AlanBell> I just have not figured them out yet
<AlanBell> pleia2: that would be wonderful
<JackyAlcine> Hmm, I'll see what I can do tonight into tomorrow night over here then.
<paul_h> AlanBell: thanks. very nice :) are they free?
<JackyAlcine> But good work, AlanBell 
<AlanBell> thanks JackyAlcine 
<JackyAlcine> paul_h, every single one of them are free.
<AlanBell> paul_h: they are an assortment of different kinds of free
<AlanBell> I don't have any mbrola voices loaded because a) they are crap and b) they are not very nice
<AlanBell> and c) they are not free enough
<AlanBell> a) and b) were kind of the same weren't they
 * AlanBell drinks coffee
<paul_h> AlanBell: crap and not very nice are closely related :)
<AlanBell> If I hadn't been at a release party I would be making more sense
<Pendulum> maco: awesome :)
<Pendulum> pleia2: did you ever get an answer about the exhibition and blog?
<Fudge> hi does anybody know how i can change the name of an icon on a panel?
<TheMuso> Fudge: Depends on what the icon is for/does.
<TheMuso> Fudge: If its a launcher, you should be able to navigate to it on the panel, open the context menu i.e shift + f10, and change the name in the properties.
<Fudge> jsut has move remove lock to panel, no properties. its a menu
<Fudge> trying to rename menu to mint-menu
<TheMuso> Right, so you'd have to hack the code that is responsible for that applet.
<TheMuso> Since its not a launcher icon.
<Fudge> cant find it, oh well
<will_> anyone know what channel i can find screenlet info in
<will_> im looking to change screenlets units to farenhiet not celsius
<fregl> maco: this is not true. QAccessible as frame work is needed independent of the bridges since Qt is cross platform. <maco> support for AT-SPI2 was in the works but AT-SPI2 got so behind that Qt people just went and made their own framework (QAccessible) which KAccessible uses
<maco> fregl: but on linux is that how it works?
<maco> fregl: im getting confused, sorry :(
<maco> fregl: oh, it was KAccessible that was "oh lets stop waiting"
<maco> from what sebastian sauer said. 
<fregl> maco: KAccessible is using QAccessible, just like the at-spi2 bridge, yes
<pleia2> Pendulum: yeah, AlanBell said it would be good, I have a loco directory entry now from -hu so I'll write some stuff up later
<pleia2> loco directory entry for Invisible Exhibition: http://loco.ubuntu.com/events/team/949/detail/ :)
<Pendulum> pleia2: awesome!
<pleia2> the only tricky thing is we need to arrange things ahead of time, so we need a vague idea of how many are coming the friday before UDS, and a final list so we can buy tickets monday evening at UDS
<Pendulum> pleia2: either I can give you access to the blog or you can e-mail something to me or AlanBell ( AlanBell may be better if it's not done tonight because tomorrow I start almost 24 hours of travel)
<pleia2> Pendulum: I'll draft up something this evening and email it to both of you :)
#ubuntu-accessibility 2011-04-30
<AlanBell> interestingly you can type into unity 2d with an on screen keyboard
<pleia2> that's good
#ubuntu-accessibility 2011-05-01
<AlanBell> pleia2: did you have a blog to get out?
<pleia2> AlanBell: actually working on it right now :)
<AlanBell> today is apparently bloggin against disablism day
<pleia2> oh wow
 * pleia2 better get her blog post on the subject out too!
<AlanBell> so just wanted to get something out today
<AlanBell> think I am going to do a blog about the speech dispatcher open mary driver
<pleia2> ok, sent
<AlanBell> great, thanks
<UndiFineD> :)
<maco> my post's up
<AlanBell> yay
<maco> i did a combination text-and-video blog post about sign language & accessibility for hearing impairments
<maco> should be on planet shortly
<AlanBell> pleia2: http://ubuntuaccessibility.wordpress.com/2011/05/01/the-invisible-exhibition-at-uds/
<pleia2> AlanBell: yay, thanks!
<pleia2> already have 8 people signed up even before announcing it anywhere :) here's hoping for 20 so we get the group rate
<AlanBell> hope so
<AlanBell> I did consider at one point flying out for just that
<pleia2> AlanBell: oh, quick edit, can you add this after the ticket prices link: "A couple community members will be handle paying for the tickets up front, and once we know how much final costs are we will let you know and you can pay us at UDS."
<AlanBell> yup
<pleia2> thank you :)
<AlanBell> in euros?
<pleia2> hungary uses a different currency
<AlanBell> so it does, the Forint
<AlanBell> so do you want Forint?
<pleia2> just say "cash" I can accept USD, not sure how euros are taken there (I know some bordering countries use them even if not officially)
<pleia2> but actually I can accept euros too
<AlanBell> yeah, just checking you are not going to land yourself with a problem ending up with $400 or so in Forint on the Wednesday
<pleia2> yeah no worries, I'll make it work
<AlanBell> pleia2: bit of an issue . . . 
<AlanBell> the ask mark Q&A session is on Wednesday evening
<AlanBell> http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-o/2011-05-11/
<AlanBell> but that is at 21:00
<pleia2> there are bound to be conflicts
<pleia2> monday, tuesday and friday are all taken too
<AlanBell> would there be time to get back for that if people wanted to?
<pleia2> and we're doing touristy stuff thursday night
<pleia2> probably
<pleia2> if people want to get back for it we'll just put them in the first tour group who goes through, they'll be out by 7:45 with plenty of time to go back
<pleia2> we should probably talk about it in person at UDS rather than making the blog post longer though
<AlanBell> OK, great
<AlanBell> agreed
<AlanBell> jono should mention it in his intro bit after the keynote (or before or whenever it is)
<pleia2> Mark is all over the place at UDS, it's not a compelling reason for me to return early ;)
<pleia2> yeah, jcastro told me to remind him about it on Monday
<jbicha> for bug 651707, does anyone have suggestions for a better webpage to point people to?
<ubot2> Launchpad bug 651707 in ubuntu-docs "brltty refers to http://access.ubuntu.com/braille but that doesn't exist" [Medium,Invalid] https://launchpad.net/bugs/651707
#ubuntu-accessibility 2012-04-24
<Fudge> morning
#ubuntu-accessibility 2012-04-26
 * Dave_Hunt is counting down to Ubuntu Release Time!  lol
<leagris> Hello, please could you help me with compiz-ezoom setup after update?
<leagris> I am visually impaired and have issues with Compiz-EZomm and the Unity menus and launcher not zooming properly
<leagris> Haha, I guess I should return to pen and paper and forget about using Ubuntu
#ubuntu-accessibility 2012-04-27
<Dave_Hunt> Hello all
<Pendulum> hi Dave_Hunt 
<Dave_Hunt> Oh, hi, didn't hear you at first.  Just installed the full release of 12.04; trying to get things talking right.
<DomasoFan> hi all.
<DomasoFan> anyone knows an accessible twitter client for ubuntu?
<colonelqubit> What's the preferred method for running gnome magnifier under ubuntu? (11.10 or 12.04)
<colonelqubit> Orca runs pretty well on both, and I especially liked the ability for me to run it off of a 12.04 b2 live-cd.
<colonelqubit>  Theoretically there's a magnifier component to orca, but I don't see a tab for it in Orca preferences. Thoughts before I file a bug?
<DomasoFan> anyone knows a accessible twitter client?
<colonelqubit> DomasoFan: what have you tried so far?
<DomasoFan> colonelqubit: well i tried gwibber but that seems not to be that accessible.
<colonelqubit> gotcha
<colonelqubit> Someone mentioned empathy, but I can't find the page right now
<DomasoFan> well its preinstalled with ubuntu 12.04
<colonelqubit> (and I've never used empathy w/twitter... not sure about that)
<DomasoFan> colonelqubit: as an audio player i currently use audacious. its quite nice
<colonelqubit> DomasoFan: Are you using orca?
<DomasoFan> yeah
<colonelqubit> cool
<DomasoFan> colonelqubit: my main pc still runs windows but my old laptop runs ubuntu now. testing ubuntu now a few years.
<colonelqubit> I'm trying to help a friend start using ubuntu, but I have several hurdles (she has poor vision, she has basically no computer experience, and she's a few thousand miles away)
<DomasoFan> colonelqubit: *lol*. cool. never thought that some people can get so fsat ahead.
<colonelqubit> I don't usually use a screen reader, but I've been trying to understand the technology so I can help my friends.
<DomasoFan> colonelqubit: so you are fully sighted? thats cool that you are helping.
<colonelqubit> I can work in gedit and the terminal a little bit, but I get lost in firefox
<DomasoFan> well its different cause orca does things different. it creates a virtual buffer where it stores the site.
<DomasoFan> with the arrow keys you can go through the page and with tab you can jump to links formfields or other focusable elements. with h you can navigate to headings. with 1-6 you can go by the different heading levels. there are many more keys you can use
<colonelqubit> domasofan: yes, I'm fully sighted (nearsighted, actually). Some of my friends are older, and are experiencing macular degeneration, or have lost their sight from diabetes.
<colonelqubit> ah, cool. A virtual buffer makes sense.
<colonelqubit> I wish that there were some kind of interactive tutorial for using Orca. Like "press Ctrl+h to enter the help learn mode"...and then a "good" confirmation when you've done that step.
<DomasoFan> yeah. there is insert+h. then you can hit keys
<DomasoFan> there is also orca help on http://live.gnome.org/Orca
<colonelqubit> I know that a lot of modern videogames have interactive in-game tutorials for teaching people how to use the controls
<colonelqubit> it seems like these are more intuitive methods for training, rather than just a manual or a set of key combinations.
<DomasoFan> there are some orca videos on youtube and some podcasts. but the most things are in the manual. oh and there is a mailing list for orca and for the ubuntu accessibility in general
<colonelqubit> domasofan: I know that one of my friends  is really interested in getting online so that they can send email. What email client do you use?
<DomasoFan> ok. let's help you here. how is the computer connected?
<DomasoFan> or does the computer actually has a connection to the net. so can you open the browser and it shows a website?
<colonelqubit> Domasofan: They're all set with a connection
<colonelqubit> but I'm considering preconfiguring a machine and then shipping it to them (because they're so far away)
<DomasoFan> ok. do you have skype or something?
<colonelqubit> domasofan: I try to avoid skype, but I do use empathy for audio/video chat.
<DomasoFan> hmm. wonder if i can do that wirh miranda. is empathy using jabber?
<colonelqubit> domasofan: Do you hang out in #ubuntu-accessibility often? I might need to run off soon, but I'd really like to talk to you later
<colonelqubit> domasofan: yes, by default empathy audio/video chat is running over jabber.
<DomasoFan> sometimes i am here. via audio would be good cause then you can hear whats going on and i can hear whats going on at your side.
<DomasoFan> my jabber address is domasofan@jabber.ccc.de
<colonelqubit> cool. I'm qubit@jabber.org
<colonelqubit> domasofan: i'll ping you to make sure I have the right address
<DomasoFan> you are added.
 * colonelqubit thinks "great minds think alike..."
<colonelqubit> domasofan: thanks for all of your advice and help. 
#ubuntu-accessibility 2012-04-28
<Pendulum> TheMuso: if you're around this weekend at all, can  you ping me?
<JanC> just stumbled onto http://perso.telecom-paristech.fr/~brettel/ and http://www.internettg.org/newsletter/mar99/accessibility_color_challenged.html (might be interresting for somebody)
<JanC> found it through http://geography.uoregon.edu/datagraphics/
#ubuntu-accessibility 2012-04-29
<Pendulum> If I get a chance I'll e-mail the list about this too, but http://blobolobolob.blogspot.com/2012/04/blogging-against-disablism-day-will-be.html
<Pendulum> anyone can blog for it
<Pendulum> I've blogged in the past on various topics
<Pendulum> I'm hoping to blog this year (although probably not on anything open source related because I have other things on my mind)
<TheMuso> Pendulum: I am around now, and this is technically still your weekend. :)
<Pendulum> TheMuso: it's good enough. I'm just leaving for CA in the morning which is why I specified weekend ;-)
<TheMuso> Ok.
<Pendulum> TheMuso: please see PM
#ubuntu-accessibility 2014-04-21
<Fudge> hi
#ubuntu-accessibility 2014-04-22
<moza> Hello
<moza> I am trying to switch off the full screen zoom in gnome 3 (ubuntu 14.04) but each time my cursor goes on the top line, it shuts down the whole gnome, and i'm stuck with no menus
#ubuntu-accessibility 2014-04-23
<Fudge> moza:  can you create a bug report?
<moza> Yes i can, i'll try to find the appropriate place
<moza> Feel free to help me know what details i should document
<moza> Should i report that to gnome? or ubuntu?
<moza> I did solve my problem however, with people from #gnome
<moza> mostly by restarting gnome shell it seems
<moza> and now i'll avoid using the zoom until a fix is explicitly sent
<moza> Sorry for not reacting earlier Fudge 
<moza> This one seems similar to what i had, although i didn't have a "big" zoom.
<moza> I found others under gnome-shell + magnifier, but none exactly similar. Unfortunately, i can't have access to the computer where the problem appeared, because i gave it back to its user.
<moza> so no stack trace (other than the one i hope was sent when the bug first appeared)
<moza> ok, sorry, i'll file the bug Fudge - i've found some info on reporting etiquette and will not be worried for duplicates :)
#ubuntu-accessibility 2014-04-24
<Fudge> moza:  sorry mate, different timezones make fast answers difficult
<Fudge> please provide the bug number here and hilight TheMuso 
<moza> Fudge (and TheMuso ) I filed the bug at Gnome : https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=728848 (number 728848)
<ubot2> Gnome bug 728848 in magnifier "Switching the magnifier on makes Gnome-shell so unstable that it is impossible to switch it off." [Critical,Unconfirmed]
<moza> Fudge : no problem about the delays, that's understandable. I'll try to leave this session connected, but i guess it's possible to contact me through the bug report now too.
<moza> Thanks for the help and request of a bug report.
<Fudge> moza:  np, feel free to stick around for future reboots
<moza> I will Fudge.
<Fudge> goodo :D
<moza> Have a nice day in the meantime :)
<TheMuso> moza: Is this also the case with GNOME shell 3.12.x? Upstream are more likely to look at it and address it if its tested in 3.12.
<moza> TheMuso : I can't test on the laptop before may 3rd, so i'll have to wait until then to provide more details. The Gnome version was the default one coming with an upgrade to ubuntu 14.04
<TheMuso> moza: Ok. Ubuntu 14.04 comes with GOME 3.10 shell, so upstream will likely ask you to test with a newer shell version, at least GNOME 3.12.0.
#ubuntu-accessibility 2018-04-28
<bg2032> hello
<bg2032> I am trying to set up a new computer for an old person with rather bad eyesight (but not blind)
<bg2032> most DEs I've tried are not very good at enforcing a minimum font size, OR they break down after a certain font size
<bg2032> around 16/18pt on 1080p
<bg2032> any tips?
