#ubuntu-doc 2005-02-22
<abelli> sup yo!
<abelli> enrico: is there any kind of digital documentation in warty's image?
<enrico> abelli: hi
<enrico> abelli: you mean all of the /usr/share/doc?
<abelli> enrico: no, sorry, ive been a little cryptic, is there any guide in there?
<abelli> i humbly dont think so but i just wanted to query the Oracle (you)
<enrico> abelli: uhm, don't know :)
<enrico> Have a tour of the package list, see the -doc packages, grep for guide
<enrico> there could be a gnome user's guide in there
<sivang> enrico: hey! :)
<sivang> enrico: what's up?
<abelli> sivang: thank you.... :'(
<sivang> abelli: what?
<abelli> you're pleasing the Power
<sivang> abelli: what did I do ? (o.o)
<abelli> no words for me..
#ubuntu-doc 2005-02-24
<froud> maskie :-)
#ubuntu-doc 2005-02-25
<froud> enrico, 
<enrico> Hello froud!
<froud> deb packages
<enrico> Nice to see you!
<froud> u 2
<enrico> u 2?
<froud> nice to see you to
<froud> how can I help
<enrico> Just sent a mail to the list, with the current status of the .debs
<froud> got your message. Ok Ok hold must read
<enrico> Things build fine (I updated the makefile to set XML_CATALOG_FILES on Debian)
<enrico> But two issues to solve: 
<enrico> 1) Installing the .xml files
<enrico> 2) Putting the right images in every .deb
<enrico> (and, if solvable, 3. Package .pdf versions as well)
<froud> My, my you want three packages :-)
<froud> Why not do one
<froud> I have not catered for three packages
<enrico> Because one may want to deinstall the 7+Mb of the QuickGuide while keeping the FAQGuide, for example
<froud> I will have to change the make and filter images to the various dirs
<enrico> Or we may want to put ABout Ubuntu and release notes on some core part of the distro and the rest outside
<froud> OK, I will have to add an XSL and incorporate it into the make
<enrico> Want to work together on some make install?
<froud> I will only get to tomorrow morn
<froud> sure, though I dont know about deb installs
<froud> with your expert guidance anything is possible
<enrico> I can solve the deb install part
<froud> ok
<enrico> Ok, so now I'll send the packages to mdz, so that we set a foot in Hoary, then we try to make things better
<froud> good
<enrico> I'm also wondering how to install the .xml files so that yelp can browse them fine even if not all of them are installed
<froud> what do you need make install to do on debs'
<enrico> However, we can make faqguide and quickguide depend on ubuntu-docs
<froud> Hmmm, best was to rely on the HTML, but I understand you want to have yelp to
<froud> I am not sure how yelp finds its stuff
<enrico> make install is usually the program that installs what's generated by make into its final destination (say, /usr/share/doc/something)
<enrico> Ok, that's some info to dig out
<froud> yes, something with scrollkeeper
<froud> we dont have a unique key for ubuntu their
<enrico> My problem was how to install, for example, the entities
<froud> threr
<enrico> all the parts that are shared between teh various documents
<froud> so long as the xml dir structure is the same as in svn it will just work
<froud> I will create a target for you
<enrico> uhm... so I could install the things in some common directory.  I'll ask for advice
<froud> yeak a common dir under usr/share/doc/
<froud> yeak a common dir under usr/share/doc/ubuntu-doc
<enrico> yes.  Now I ask if it's allowed by policy: hang on
<froud> yes
<froud> Oh ok
<enrico> uhm... I asked on ubuntu/devel but I think I've been too verbose and people ignored me
<enrico> So far I'm being fairly ignored.  Let's wait a bit...
<froud> I tried asking about this stuff about a month ago and got the same result
<froud> OK so here is what you need
<froud> 1. Make target to be able to package each HTML version seperately
<froud> 2. Make target to get pristine copy of xml sources
<froud> is that it
<Kinnison> Shared stuff should go somewhere like /usr/share/ubuntu-doc/...
<Kinnison> Documentation about the 'ubuntu-doc' package belongs in '/usr/share/doc/ubuntu-doc'
<froud> Kinnison, agreed
<froud> so you want html dirs for each book
<enrico> Kinnison: what if the shared stuff is documentation?  Like images used by the documentation, things like that?
<froud> and an XML direc for the sources
<Kinnison> enrico: Hmm
<Kinnison> enrico: are they shared between different books?
<enrico> yes
<froud> At present we have one folder for all images
<enrico> and no
<Kinnison> Hmm
<enrico> some yes, most no
<Kinnison> I'd imagine putting everything inside /usr/share/doc/ubuntu-doc/... then
<froud> Kinnison, +1
<Kinnison> I was imagining XML stuff going in /usr/share/ubuntu-doc
<Kinnison> Entity docs and the like
<enrico> I thought about making a single package, but the QuickGuide is 7+Mb and it's only an intro, so someone might want to deinstall that at some point
<Kinnison> Then again; I'm not totally au-fait with the docbook way of doing things
<froud> enrico, Kinnison 
<froud> it's no problem to install the xml in this location
<froud> and make individual packages
* Kinnison -> Post office
<froud> enrico, you know when you do the make you get the build/
<enrico> So, xml things go in /usr/share/ubuntu-doc, and the HTML gets separated in three independent things to install in /usr/share/doc/{ubuntu-doc,ubuntu-faqguide,ubuntu-quickguide}
<enrico> But where do we put the images that are in common between the XML and the HTML?
<froud> Just hold let me draw this
<Kinnison> remember, it has to be /usr/share/doc/<binarypackagename>
<Kinnison> so that would imply an ubuntu-doc, ubuntu-faqguide and ubuntu-quickguide package each
<enrico> Can I install symliks in /usr/share/doc/ubuntu-docs pointing at /usr/share/ubuntu-docs?
<enrico> Kinnison: but it can be that ubuntu-faqguide installs stuff in /usr/share/ubuntu-docs?
<froud> is this what you mean
<froud> /usr/share/doc/ubuntu-doc/ubuntu-doc-xml/ as it is now just pristine
<froud> 
<froud>                 /usr/share/doc/ubuntu-doc/ubuntu-quickguide/
<froud>                 /usr/share/doc/ubuntu-doc/ubuntu-quickguide/images/
<froud> 
<froud>                 /usr/share/doc/ubuntu-doc/ubuntu-faqguide/
<froud>                 /usr/share/doc/ubuntu-doc/ubuntu-faqguide/images/
<froud> enrico, symlinks are allowed
<enrico> No, that appearently isn't possible because the ubuntu-faqguide package can only install in /usr/share/doc/ubuntu-faqguide (according to what Kinnison seems to have just said)
<enrico> I was thinking about making:
<enrico> /usr/share/ubuntu-doc/xml
<enrico> /usr/share/ubuntu-doc/images
<enrico> and then installing all XML and images there
<enrico> then separating the HTML and the images into their respective packages.  Images that are used by more than one package go in the ubuntu-docs package
<froud> why not just have the trunk as it now then, just under ubuntu-doc/
<enrico> The various packages install images in /usr/share/ubuntu-doc/images, and install symlinks to them in /usr/share/doc/<package>/images so that HTML documentation works
<froud> that's fine
<froud> but the path must be ../images/
<enrico> sure: and we stuff symlinks in there
<enrico> I'll try to put together something like that.  I'll probably need something that tells me which images are used by which document
<froud> so long as there is a images link in the root and html packages are installed relative to that root it will work
<froud> I have an XSL to to this
<enrico> Oh, cool!  Could you please commit it in the repo?
<froud> but need to integrate it to the system
<froud> I think the best think is that you send me an email with the exact dir structure you want and I will create the system to do it that way
<froud> so what you get in build/ will be what you want for dist
<froud> However, if a person does uninstall qg
<froud> it will also remove images shared by other documents
<froud> including the xml
<froud> if we have each HTML version of the book seperate with its images relative, this wont happen
<Kinnison> Your best bet is to make some packages; see what people think / ask the opinion of some real ubuntu packagers; and then fix them as needed
<froud> It means duplication
<froud> no worries
<enrico> Kinnison: I was about to do that, but I need to have some base knowledge to start from
<froud> The current system was designed to reuse as much as possible to reduce on disk usage
<enrico> froud: please commit that XSL into the repo, I'll try to see what I can do with the rest
<Kinnison> (side note: was someone here asking about my keysigning stuff?)
<enrico> Kinnison: I use caff
<froud> enrico, I will, but I must modify first and incorporate it into the system
<enrico> (how to the XML files refer to images? ../images ?)
<enrico> I had a look at /usr/share/gnome/help and saw more issues, like l18n
<froud> He, he C/
<froud> yes all images refs start ../image
<froud> oh I see that XSL is in the libs dir
<enrico> Ok, could make sense.  Let's see what I Can do
<froud> but it wont work in present state
<froud> enrico, take a look at libs/foImageList.xsl
<enrico> Doesn't that only give things related to fo?
<froud> It was something I used in another project
<froud> yes, that's what it wont work
<froud> also it's not in context
<froud> I seem to remember putting it there cause I knew we would need it later
<froud> so I will modify it and incorporate it to the make
<enrico> froud: please just make it work, then I can maybe make a script that outputs the list of images for a given package
<enrico> That'd be already enough to me to work on
<froud> well the xsl does that
<froud> leave it with me I will have a working solution in svn by tomorrow night 
<froud> will this be in time?
<enrico> I think so.  However, I may already have solved the problem by that, and just need your revision :)
<enrico> I'm installing all the .xml files in /usr/share/doc/ubuntu-docs/C/
<enrico> All the images in in /usr/share/doc/ubuntu-docs/C/images
<enrico> Then, link farm in /usr/share/doc/*
<enrico> then I'll see what happens
<froud> Hmm I would not put the link farm in /usr/share/doc/*
<froud> rather /usr/share/doc/ubuntu-doc/
<froud> rather /usr/share/doc/ubuntu-docs/
<enrico> Sure: /usr/share/doc/ubuntu-docs, /usr/share/doc/ubuntu-faqguide, /usr/share/doc/ubuntu-quickguide
<froud> where /usr/share/doc/ubuntu-faqguide, /usr/share/doc/ubuntu-quickguide hold the HTML versions and each has images relative to it
<enrico> yes
<enrico> the images would be symlinks to /usr/share/ubuntu-docs/C/images/*
<froud> you need symlink in /usr/share/ubuntu-docs/images(ln)/
<froud> just one
<enrico> uh... yes!
<enrico> that's utterly ansolutely true!
<enrico> thanks!! Saved me lots!
<froud> ln /usr/share/ubuntu-docs/C/images/ images
<froud> so what's left for me to do :-)
* froud is lost
<enrico> the XSL that tells me what images are used by a given document
<enrico> I can use that to see what packages I shuold put the images in
<froud> OK, the way I did it before was that the xsl writes atext file containing the list of images found in the xml
<froud> then the make just did a cp of that image list to the directory
<froud> qg has the picture
<froud> qg has the pictures
<enrico> It's ok if you just spit a list of image filenames to standard output
<froud> but they both use images/navig/ and images/admon/
<froud> ok stdout is fine but its better to input by reading the list from a file, no?
<enrico> No: I can do    for i in `xsltproc [stuff] `
<enrico> Or send it to a file with >file.list if needed
<enrico> If it's not a burden.  If it's easier to a file I can do
<enrico> for i in `cat file.list` :)
<froud> No the XSL is what writes the file
<froud> dont worry about it, I will make it so you just run make dist
<froud> run and forget
<froud> :-)
<froud> you worry about the deb stuff
<froud> agreed :-)
<enrico> agreed, but I think you won't need to make that build/ work
<froud> why not
<froud> if we have it once we will have it for furture no?
<enrico> because I'm doing all the work in the debian packageing already
<froud> future
<froud> Ah ha,       ok
<froud> :-)
<froud> So I will just do that XSL
<froud> and see how you work in the deb stuff
<enrico> ok
<froud> I normally just make a directory and tarball it for the packagers
<enrico> images/{admon,callouts,navig} are used by all the docs, isn't it?
<froud> but you want to skip that
<froud> yes
<froud> btw you should not just copy the XML dirs
<enrico> why not?
<froud> you need to do an svn export or else you will have all the .svn dirs
<froud> and they can be many Meg
<enrico> Sure: I do things with an svn export
<enrico> I mean, I do a svn export, then I build the package
<froud> yes
<enrico> the debian tools complain if they see .svn directories in the source 
<froud> in fact the whole build thing should be done on an svn export
<enrico> we have two .gif images: are they used?
<froud> that's why I had started make dist
<froud> the cc images yes
<enrico> can I convert them to png?
<froud> all docs should use them in the license sections
<froud> no you cant :-)
<enrico> buuu... why
<enrico> ?
<froud> not unless we change the source
<enrico> I can convert them and change the source
<enrico> can I ?  :)
<froud> the xml looks for gif
<froud> Ho humk, if you must :-)
<enrico> no source is using those, appearently, anyway
<enrico> (just did an rgrep)
<froud> but change legalnotice.xml to
<enrico> do you confirm?
<froud> yes, you are right, they are not being used
<enrico> so I convert them before you use them :
<enrico> :)
<froud> it was removed when I did the lic stuff with mako
<froud> :-)
<froud> Just dont change gifs in images/navig
<enrico> converted (and ocmmitted)!  They are smaller, too.
<enrico> bastard!  More gifs!
<froud> yes :-)
<enrico> Distributing gifs is impolite
<enrico> but at least if they are in images/navig I care less
<enrico> (that is, I was doing a *.png :)
<Kinnison> gifs suck
<Kinnison> use PNGs
<froud> the navig gifs have transparent backgrounds
<enrico> PNGs can have transparent background, too
<Kinnison> PNGs can have alpha channels in them
<froud> easier to match header and footer colors in chunked output
<froud> well if you see how small they are you dont want to mess with them
<froud> I tried a convert to png and did not like the result
<froud> perhap you can do it
<enrico> testing...
<enrico> OH COOLNESS
<enrico> It works quite well
<enrico> It now just misses splitting the images in teh various packages
<enrico> committed
<enrico> sending a mail in the list
<froud> ok, I have to get ready to go out. Valentines dinner
<froud> c ya
<enrico> WoW!  Have a lovely evening!
<enrico> Committed.   Announced.   Now I deserve a walk out
<enrico> brb
<enrico> froud, Kinnison: BTW, big compliments!  The resulting packaging is IMHO quite cool!
* Kinnison grins
#ubuntu-doc 2005-02-26
<dholbach> hi
<dholbach> i made a mistake, i called a page UniversePythongTransitionTODO
<dholbach> what do i do?
<dholbach> "undo"?
<dholbach> oh... renaming it just worked
<dholbach> NICE :-)
<dholbach> good work!
<dholbach> *wave*
<froud> African greetings
#ubuntu-doc 2005-02-27
<svenl> hi guys.
<svenl> zul told me i should maybe ask here.
<svenl> i have a problem with registering on the wiki, i tried to register, but the join page claims my email address (luther@debian.org) is already in the database. I am not sure if i added it or not, but there is no way to get my password back.
<Kinnison> There should be a forgottenpassword page
<sivang> svenl: you should speak to mako or thom I think, they can reset you password, also sm would be a good address for that since he's the zwiki creator.
<svenl> Kinnison: i hunted it yesterday.
<svenl> didn't find any.
<svenl> hi sivang.
<svenl> well mako told me he had no idea.
<svenl> but then i didn't ask him about reseting the password, will ask.
<Kinnison> svenl: https://www.ubuntulinux.org/forgottenpassword
<svenl> Kinnison: ok, thanks. Should maybe be linked from the login page ? 
<Kinnison> I believe it is linked from somewhere; but I just happen to know the url
<svenl> hehe.
<svenl> anyway, thanks.
<svenl> I will bother you more, or thom or mako, if it didn't work :)
<froud> uname -a: Linux sean 2.6.8-24.11-default #1 Fri Jan 14 13:01:26 UTC 2005 i686 i686 i386 GNU/Linux
<froud> ps: PID TTY          TIME CMD
<froud> ps: 4653 ?        00:00:00 startkde
<froud> ps: 4693 ?        00:00:00 gpg-agent
<froud> ps: 4694 ?        00:00:00 ssh-agent
<froud> ps: 4722 ?        00:00:01 kdeinit
<froud> ps: 4725 ?        00:00:04 kdeinit
<froud> ps: 4727 ?        00:00:00 kdeinit
<froud> ps: 4730 ?        00:00:02 kdeinit
<froud> ps: 4739 ?        00:00:04 artsd
<froud> ps: 4741 ?        00:00:05 kdeinit
<froud> ps: 4742 ?        00:00:00 kwrapper
<froud> ps: 4744 ?        00:00:01 kdeinit
<froud> ps: 4745 ?        00:00:58 kdeinit
<froud> ps: 4748 ?        00:00:08 kdeinit
<froud> ps: 4749 ?        00:00:20 kdeinit
<froud> ps: 4751 ?        00:01:33 kdeinit
<froud> ps: 4754 ?        00:00:10 kdeinit
<froud> ps: 4757 ?        00:01:37 kdeinit
<froud> ps: 4759 ?        00:00:01 kdeinit
<froud> ps: 4761 ?        00:00:01 kdeinit
<froud> ps: 4763 ?        00:00:01 kdeinit
<froud> ps: 4767 ?        00:00:01 kgpg
<froud> ps: 4770 ?        00:00:02 kdeinit
<froud> ps: 4772 ?        00:00:02 knotes
<froud> ps: 4776 ?        00:00:09 kscd
<froud> ps: 4780 ?        00:00:13 kget
<froud> ps: 5562 ?        00:00:02 kdeinit
<froud> ps: 9658 ?        00:00:01 kweatherservice
<froud> ps: 9678 ?        00:00:01 rssservice
<froud> ps: 9704 ?        00:07:56 kontact
<froud> ps: 11728 ?        00:01:25 korgac
<froud> ps: 13873 ?        00:04:47 kdeinit
<froud> ps: 28090 ?        00:00:00 kdesud
<froud> ps: 11164 ?        00:04:22 krdc
<froud> ps: 17368 ?        00:00:55 kopete
<froud> ps: 17375 ?        00:00:00 kwalletmanager
<froud> ubuntu with KDE is not bad :-)
<Kinnison> kubuntu?
<froud> Kinnison: home grown
<Kinnison> right
<froud> Install kde on my own
* Kinnison nods
<froud> no ubuntu packages just those from kernel and gnu etc
<froud> took me forever to fix all the problems, not sure they are all gone :-) but it works
<Kinnison> Heh
<froud> Now I have Konversation for IRC :-)
<froud> just slash excec cmd command -options
<froud> exec
<froud> uptime: 8:25pm  up 7 days  4:25,  4 users,  load average: 1.11, 1.04, 0.96
<froud> great for interactive debuging on IRC
<froud> well Im off c ya
#ubuntu-doc 2006-02-20
<LaserJock> anybody around?
<crimsun> about 2% around
<LaserJock> hmm, you again ;-)
<LaserJock> I'm trying to figure out how to put a comment in a wiki page
<hyperactivecrond> im here
<hyperactivecrond> laserjock: login w/ ur launchpad acct.
<LaserJock> yeah
<jsgotangco> cheerrss
<LaserJock> I know how to edit a wiki page, I just want to be able to comment out a part of a wiki page
<jsgotangco> ##
<LaserJock> ahh, I was trying just #
<crimsun> just found that myself (https://wiki.ubuntu.com/HelpOnProcessingInstructions)
<LaserJock> doh, and I was on that page. I saw that # followed by a keyword was for processing so I thought it wasn't it. I didn't see the first bullet :(
<Madpilot> anyone here with ops on #ubuntu?
<robotgeek> nope. 
<LaserJock> nope, I don't go over there much. I get a headache
<LaserJock> Madpilot: is there a problem over there? ;-)
<Madpilot> LaserJock: flooding
<LaserJock> I see
<robotgeek> i only have ops in #kubuntu 
* LaserJock doesn't have ops in anything :(
<Kyral> I'm kinda disappointed that I couldn't use a GPL Comptable license for my blog...
<Kyral> I put it under CC-ShareAlike
<LaserJock> Kyral: why can't you?
<Kyral> CC-ShareAlike isn't GPL Compat
<Kyral> Whats the Wiki under again?
<Madpilot> Kyral: nobody's quite sure... :P
<Kyral> lol
<Madpilot> CC:PD is the current plan for "later"
<Kyral> Well, for the time being, consider my stuff under the same license as my blog :P
<Kyral> until a license is decided
<LaserJock> Kyral: what do you mean? you have no choice as to the license of your blog?
<Kyral> No I meant that no GPL Compatible License really fits blogs
<LaserJock> oh
<LaserJock> I see. I really don't understand these licenses very well. All I know is that I'm pretty much forced to use GPL for the Packaging Guide
<Kyral> GFDL?
<LaserJock> no GPL
<LaserJock> basically all of the Debian packaging docs are GPL'd so for me to use material from DNMG or Debian Policy I sorta need to keep that. Also the Ubuntu Packaging Guide and the Ubuntu Developer's Reference need to be compatible and the UDR is going to be GPL
<Kyral> ah
<Kyral> Yah I would put my Blog under GPL...but for some reason the GPL doesn't seem to work for stuff like Blogs, at least IMO
<LaserJock> well, I'm not sure why the Debian docs are GPL'd but I'm not sure that GFDL is DFSG compatible
<LaserJock> we need one license to rule them all ;-)
<Kyral> but it seems like the CC-by-Sa is like the GFDL
<LaserJock> yeah
<Kyral> Which is what my blog is under
<LaserJock> well, the doc team does a GFDL/CC-SA dual license
<LaserJock> except for me
<Kyral> I guess you could technically call the words "Source Code" for the English Language
<LaserJock> well, it really doesn't make much sense for documentation, but I do wish that the GFDL was compatible with the GPL
<Kyral> Personally I don't see why it isn't
<Kyral> Frankly I think that its good that the DRM clause is in the GFDL
<LaserJock> hmm, on the gnu site they say the Cc Attribution-Sharealike 2.0 license is not GFDL compatible
<Kyral> I am using the 2.5 ;P
<LaserJock> i see, 2.0 and 2.5 are much different
<Kyral> What does it say for the 2.5 (writing a new entry, can't be bothered to look :P)
<LaserJock> doh, no, I was just looking at the dummary of 2.5
<Kyral> ah
<LaserJock> *summary
<LaserJock> there is a big issue with scientific software licenses, a lot of times we use some sort of academic license where it is free for non-commercial uses
<crimsun> even that's not DFSG-free.
<crimsun> [clause 1 of DFSG] 
<LaserJock> crimsun: that's what I'm saying. academic licensing is common for scientific apps but it is not DFSG compatible
<LaserJock> man, I really don't see any documentation licenses that are DFSG free
<jsgotangco> legalese can be frustrating
<robotgeek> yeah
<Madpilot> licenses are fun :P
<robotgeek> too much reading
<Madpilot> that's why I like the CC licenses - the 'human readable' versions really are
<LaserJock> hi theCore 
<theCore> hello LaserJock 
<LaserJock> did you have something to send me?
<theCore> not yet, I do some polishing
<theCore> I'm trying to find good references
<LaserJock> have you done anything for patch and diff?
<theCore> just a quick overview
<theCore> I think I will remove the `make' examples
<LaserJock> theCore: np, I worked a little on the bugs section
<LaserJock> theCore: I think that is a good idea, I thought you did a good job but we just don't have a lot of run to explain everything
<theCore> yah, I think we should concentrate more on the `packaging' stuff
<LaserJock> right, but at least giving the reader a place to go read more on important subjects is really a help
<theCore> that why I'm searching for good references ;)
<LaserJock> I've got to go, it's bed time. but if you find particularly good packaging references stick them on the Resources wiki page
<LaserJock> good night
<theCore> ciao
<jsgotangco> robotgeek_away, i got your patch i'll apply it now
<jsgotangco> robotgeek_away, done
<robotgeek> jsgotangco: thanks
<mdke> jsgotangco, gah
<mdke> i've just noticed that I forgot to add the edubuntu Makefile yesterday
<jsgotangco> :D
<mdke> crap, it's in my working copy but I didn't svn add it
<jsgotangco> i didnt notice it either i was busy on something else
<jsgotangco> well we can trigger a build now so i can show something in the meeting later
<mdke> i don't have the laptop that my W/C is on
<mdke> i'll try and get to it in a few hours
<mdke> if i do, i'll commit and do a build
<jsgotangco> thanks
<mdke> sorry bout that
<mdke> when is the meeting?
<jsgotangco> 12UTC
<mdke> oh, i can't do it before then :(
<robotgeek> that's like in another 5 hours
<mdke> stupid
<jsgotangco> robotgeek, yes, if JaneW is willing heh
<jsgotangco> mdke, its ok dude i'll just churn out something later
<robotgeek> jsgotangco: is this a different meeting?
<jsgotangco> im just dumping text at the moment
<jsgotangco> robotgeek, edubuntu
<robotgeek> ah okay. i'll be in bed then :)
<jsgotangco> i was waiting for the server to build, when i saw it didn't build i though you werent able to commit heh
<robotgeek> ah, the doc team meeting is on 17th
<jsgotangco> robotgeek, where are you located anyway?
<robotgeek> right now in TX - UTC - 6.00
<jsgotangco> ouch
<robotgeek> i'm actually moving up north-east , so i'll be UTC - 5.00 from 18th onwards
<jsgotangco> i thought you were somewhere nearer...hehehe
<robotgeek> jsgotangco: i am from India, however
<jsgotangco> yeah
* mdke is not sure about these procedure tags
<jsgotangco> jeff is right though
<mdke> do we really want things displaying as "Procedure 1: blah"
<mdke> ?
<mdke> I think that having the word "Procedure #" in every small title is going to look bad
<jsgotangco> well if its a step by step thing, i guess so
<mdke> Procedure 57: Opening the Location Bar
<mdke> Procedure 58: Shutting down GNOME
<mdke> Procedure 59: Changing the Desktop Background
<mdke> i think that would look terrible
<jsgotangco> well
<robotgeek> i tht that applied only to kde?
<jsgotangco> that's where docbook fails
<mdke> robotgeek, no, it applies if you use the <procedure> tag
<robotgeek> i meant, it was a kde guideline?
<jsgotangco> no that
* robotgeek shuts up and reads
<jsgotangco> no that's docbook
<mdke> we don't _have_ to use certain tags if we think they look bad
<mdke> there is nothing wrong with numbered or bulleted lists, I think
<jsgotangco> unless we convert them to something else
<mdke> what do you mean?
<jsgotangco> like convert it to html or pdf
<robotgeek> can't procedure be hacked to not display the number? 
<mdke> robotgeek, i don't know, i doubt it
<jsgotangco> probably not with walsh scripts
<mdke> in any case, we ship xml, so we're tied to the gnome stylesheets too
<robotgeek> i think i'll spend my time on the flight reading about docbook
<mdke> it's not the number that bothers me though
<mdke> it's the word "procedure" everywhere
<mdke> i'd rather the user know what the section is about
<mdke> actually I suppose what will happen is that you'll get two titles, like this:
<mdke> 1.3.4 World Wide Web
<mdke> Procedure 1: Using Firefox
<mdke> Procedure 2: Installing flash
<mdke> etc
<robotgeek> yeah, the word procedure sucks :)
<jsgotangco> hardcore due
<jsgotangco> dude
<jsgotangco> heh
<mdke> -> work
* bhuvan is unable to validate current desktop guide
<Madpilot> the Ubuntu DG?
<Madpilot> we've got two 'desktop guides' now, remember :P
<bhuvan> Madpilot, ubuntu/desktopguide/C/desktopguide.xml
<Madpilot> hmm... the whole thing works in Yelp Breezy for me - current svn
<bhuvan> yep, yelp renders fine. but they are not valid xml files!
<Madpilot> hmm... I just rely on Yelp to catch errors, TBH, I haven't ever bothered with the validation script thing
<jsgotangco> dude the validation script should come first
<jsgotangco> or else the html won't build
<Madpilot> " ./validate.sh ubuntu/desktopguide/C/desktopguide.xml" returns no complaints here
<Madpilot> revision 2430
<bhuvan> yep, ./validate.sh ubuntu/desktopguide/C/preface.xml does not
<bhuvan> seems it's not an issue..
<bhuvan> it was complaining about xref linkend
<bhuvan> it gets solved when we run 'yelp desktopguide.xml'
<Madpilot> does the validate script just work on the one file you feed it, or does it assemble the whole DocBook structure like Yelp does?
<bhuvan> it assemble whole docbook structure
<Madpilot> good to know
<bhuvan> i was wrong assuming dg = sg
<bhuvan> in sg, we would be able to validate individual files and master file (serverguide.xml)
<bhuvan> but in dg, it is not so.. anyway everything works fine, forget it
<jjesse> mdke: ping
<jjesse> mdke: working on getting the stylesheets updated on quickguide, etc on d.u.c
<jjesse> mdke: this is what Riddell says   16:34]  Riddell: jjesse: it needs mdke to put the kde bits in /stable on the server
#ubuntu-doc 2006-02-21
<LaserJock> hi theCore 
<theCore> hello LaserJock! :D
<LaserJock> I did some rearranging of the pg today
* theCore check is repo check
<theCore> oh, two new files! basic.xml and ubuntu.xml, I wonder are they ... ;)
<LaserJock> well, I moved scenarios.xml to basic.xml and I moved the ubuntu specific stuff to ubuntu.xml
<theCore> cool, I like how you arranged the basic.xml file
<LaserJock> Packaging Scenarios just wasn't very descriptive to me.
<LaserJock> I also moved the "Building with CDBS" section to advanced. I don't think we will have time to make a full section like for debhelper
<theCore> (lol, yelp froze when I go in a fullscreen <screen> tag)
<theCore> maybe I should report as a bug ...
<theCore> report it*
<theCore> anyway ... I been cutting in half the size of the `make' description
<LaserJock> theCore: I didn't touch getting started so my changes shouldn't effect your work
<theCore> yah, I saw that
<Kyral> You could just link to the WebDocs for CDBS
<LaserJock> Kyral: I think that is pretty much what we're going to do. For dapper+1 I'd like to make a heloo-cdbs package
<LaserJock> hello-cdbs that is
<theCore> LaserJock, I think we should make a quick-and-dirty draft as fast as we can
<theCore> LaserJock, it would make the writing easier after
<Kyral> I'll make a contribution tomorrow
<LaserJock> theCore: I agree. I've been busy with MOTU stuff lately (and work) but I"m presently working on the Pbuilder section.
<Kyral> Good Night guys
<Kyral> Tomorrow I start my work for the DocTeam
<theCore> I will stop working on the Basic section, (I fear premature optimization) and try to work on a more important one 
<LaserJock> cya Kyral 
<theCore> LaserJock, I think will move everything of the Basic Skill to a Suggested Reading section
<LaserJock> theCore: ok, that might be best. But try to include a little summary or description along with the link
<theCore> yep, that exactly what I was thinking
<LaserJock> theCore: I think that would be great, finish it up and send me a patch when your done ;-)
<theCore> sure
<theCore> ok, I need some sleep
<theCore> cya later
<jsgotangco> what the hell
<jsgotangco> i got this from the doc list
<jsgotangco> sent to the group
<jsgotangco> Dear Sir / Madam .
<jsgotangco> I am writing this in total disgust about the way things are done as far
<jsgotangco> a help is concerned. By offering help to people, I would think that it
<jsgotangco> would be done in a professional manner. But alas , this is not really
<jsgotangco> the case now is it.  I have read input from other users state what they
<jsgotangco> think of the likes of Microsoft etc etc. But in all fairness, Ubuntu is
<jsgotangco> just the same, there is no difference in ether party. You both want a
<jsgotangco> big slice of the software market, and do not care about who you walk
<jsgotangco> over, get my drift.
<jsgotangco> You see the only thing that stands in the way of progress is silly
<jsgotangco> people who think that they are the only ones on this planet. Which
<jsgotangco> accounts for 95% of this planet. It's a real shame, because there is
<jsgotangco> more to life than stupid bravado and a lack of decent intelligence.  
<jsgotangco> I for one will gladly send you back your software and you can stick it.
<jsgotangco> Now go away and leave me alone.
<jsgotangco> wonder who this email is addressed to
<Madpilot> What? I don't think I got that - was it sent to ubuntu-doc?
<jsgotangco> yes but it was a non-member so it got held
<jsgotangco> i was about to approve mpt's email when i saw it
<Madpilot> send it on, just for a laugh :P
<jsgotangco> you sure?
<jsgotangco> looks like spam
<jsgotangco> well no
<Madpilot> looks like nonsense, TBH...
<jsgotangco> yes
<jsgotangco> rejecting
<LaserJock> The don't discuss at all what makes them feel they way the do
<Madpilot> LaserJock: trolls aren't into motivation, they just troll
<LaserJock> true, I wonder about senseless trolls. surely there must be some sign of intelligence
<LaserJock> I'm off to bed. good night guys
<Madpilot> later
<Madpilot> what's the syntax for wildcards on the wiki? DocumentationTeam/* doesn't seem to be working to subscribe to everything under "DocumentationTeam"...
<dsas> I think it's .*
<Madpilot> thanks, will try that
<dsas> . means match any character and * means match . any number of times.
<Madpilot> ah - I really should learn basic regex at some point :P
<dsas> I know bits...can't decipher some of the ones you see though.
<dsas> I can't seem to update my UserPreferences actually, keep getting "passwords don't match"
<Madpilot> can you edit the wiki & stuff?
<jsgotangco> dsas, that's a known bug
<jsgotangco> its already in malone
<jsgotangco> i think spiv is the one who will fix it
<Madpilot> jsgotangco: do me a small favour? Edit one of the sub-pages off DocumentationTeam (/MeetingAgenda or something) - I'd like to check if the wildcard subs work...
<Madpilot> DocumentationTeam/.* and the like
<jsgotangco> hold on
<jsgotangco> err how do you like a subpage from a mainpage?
<jsgotangco> like i want to list foobar but its a subpage of Foo
<Madpilot> for a link? I think you have to put the whole thing in - [:Foo/foobar:text to give a useful link] 
<jsgotangco> ahh
<jsgotangco> Status of sending notification mails:
<jsgotangco> [en]  DanielHolbach2, DanielRobitaille, GrantGalbraith, Dsas, MatthewEast, AndrewMitchell, Madpilot: Mail sent OK
<Madpilot> excellent, it works - thanks
<jsgotangco> hmm
<jsgotangco> rob seems so confrontational on the xp thread in sounder..
<jsgotangco> not good
<Madpilot> the "MS marketing swill" post?
<jsgotangco> yes something like that
<jsgotangco> and the BSOD thing
<dsas> "user preferences saved" 
* dsas shrugs
<Madpilot> it's an OS holy war - you can't expect entirely rational behaviour <j/k>
<jsgotangco> yes
<jsgotangco> but i'll just keep my mouth shut if a flame war is starting
<jsgotangco> because some people have personalities that won't bow down to an opinion no matter what
<Madpilot> dsas: so the wiki is co-operating with you now?
<dsas> it seems so 
<Madpilot> Aren't computers fun?
<dsas> no idea what's changed, but it's working.
<dsas> oh, it seems if I don't put any password in then they match but it takes ages to reload the page, but if I do put my LP password in they don't match and it doesn't work.
<dsas> anyway, I must get going to work if I want to get a parking space. t'ra.
<mdke> morning
<Madpilot> hi mdke
<mdke> Madpilot, so what do you think about this <procedure> thing? you think we should use it?
<mdke> i'm not brilliantly keen
<Madpilot> haven't tried it yet to see what it looks like, actually.
<Madpilot> I'll have a look at it tomorrow night
<jsgotangco> we'll probably get burned aesthetically, but its syntatically correct
<mdke> well, if it doesn't improve the look, I really don't think we should do it
<mdke> it will be a pain to convert the entire guide
* mdke still prefers bullet points over numbers
<Madpilot> mdke: so do I, unless the number of points is over 3 or so, then numbers make more sense...
<mdke> they make sense, but look bad IMO
<mdke> because they clash with the numbers in each section heading
<Madpilot> true - with those long section headings, there's probably enough numbers floating around already - but numbered lists can be easier to follow than long bulletted lists
<mdke> i guess that's true
<mdke> we ought to be consistent
<mdke> but if we're gonna use numbers, I'd rather use orderedlist, because we can use find/replace for that, whereas procedure would require serious time spent on rewriting
<mdke> and i'd rather that time was spent on improving the guide, tbh
<mdke> btw jsgotangco, i'll commit the edubuntu thing today, I didn't get to my computer yesterday, sorry again
<jsgotangco> k
<mdke> ->work
<mdke> jsgotangco, ok the edubuntu stuff is on the website, have a look
<jsgotangco> i see it now!
<jsgotangco> hmmm
<jsgotangco> release notes is a dud
<jsgotangco> 404
<mdke> ah, thanks
<mdke> fixed
<jsgotangco> thanks
* jsgotangco sighs
<jsgotangco> are we really sticking to gnome x-chat?
<Kamping_Kaiser> i just had to install libxine-exracodecs before totem would play sound with my mpgs. did i just miss something in the doc, or is it not mentioned?
<Kamping_Kaiser> just a tic , I'll grep
<Kamping_Kaiser> hm. it's not there.
<Kamping_Kaiser> anyone else need the file for audio? running dapper.
<jsgotangco> hmm it seems rob and jjesse are starting a flamewar on windows
<robotgeek> where jsgotangco ?
<jsgotangco> sounder
* robotgeek just checked sounder
<robotgeek> ah, since it did'nt have "flamewar" in the subject, i probably missed it :)
<jsgotangco> its that xp thread
<robotgeek> yeah, foun it :)
<jsgotangco> good night
<robotgeek> night 
<LaserJock> hi robotgeek 
<LaserJock> hi theCore 
<robotgeek> hey LaserJock , howdy
<theCore> hello LaserJock 
<theCore> LaserJock, I found a elegant way, how to integrate both a quick-howto and references  about the tools
<LaserJock> theCore: yeah?
<theCore> It was somehow painful for me to trash 200 lines of text, so decided to recycle them
<theCore> I striped them up and added them with the tools descriptions
<theCore> LaserJock, do you know good ref. about ./configure ?
<theCore> hmm, maybe my solution isn't that elegant ... :/
<LaserJock> theCore: not really, you might check out man pages even if there isn't anything grea on the web
<theCore> I forgot about dependencies 
<jjesse> mdke: ping?
<LaserJock> jjesse: is there a reason why the fdl and ccbysa licenses are in kubuntu/libs/ ?
<jjesse> not that i am aware of
<jjesse> those are the ones that the kubuntu files use?
<theCore> lol, "The Ubuntu Packaging Guide is based on the original work of: Alexandre Vassalotti", cool that's me!
<robotgeek> jjesse: i think ridell put them there for removing xincludes, let me look up my logs
<theCore> LaserJock, is it you that added this ?
<LaserJock> theCore: I think so
<LaserJock> theCore: you've worked on it
<theCore> LaserJock, yeah, but it's written like I was more important that you
<theCore> s/that/than/
<robotgeek> jjesse: 17:27 < Riddell> robotgeek: I converted it to non-xincludes
<theCore> LaserJock, I modified the OMF file a little bit
<LaserJock> theCore: fine
<robotgeek> 15:58 < Riddell> I'm not talking about content just now, but about changing from xincludes to old fashioned stuff that meinproc can understand
<spz2> hi-
<LaserJock> so it is to work with KDE better?
<LaserJock> hi spz2 
<spz2> ive been in and out of the irc channels tryin to get my install to work
<spz2> not working
<theCore> there is something that bother me a little bit, though. 
<robotgeek> spz2: this is not a support channel, please ask in #ubuntu
<spz2> ah ok
<robotgeek> LaserJock: so that the reason they are there, though i don't quite understand them :)
<LaserJock> ok, I just wondered
<theCore> in the omf file, should I put myself as creator, maintainer, or contributor ?
<LaserJock> contributor I think
<theCore> ok, that what I did
<theCore> Why the licence is GPL ? not FDL ?
<LaserJock> because all the Debian docs are GPL and the Ubuntu Developer's Resource will be GPL as well
<theCore> oh, ok
<LaserJock> if we want to be able to share material amongst them the licenses need to be compatible
<theCore> ok I send you the diff of the OMG file
<LaserJock> great
<theCore> actually I will send the whole file
<LaserJock> fine
<theCore> does the Wiki is down again ?
<robotgeek> i think so, not able to access myself
<bur[n] er> anyone have xserver-xgl and compiz kickin?
* bur[n] er isn't sure how to enable compiz after apt-getting
* bur[n] er realizes this is off-topic :\
<theCore> ok it is up again
<LaserJock> bur[n] er: there is an ubuntu-devel-announce email todaqy about that
<bur[n] er> thanks LaserJock... i'll check it out!
<LaserJock> theCore: got your email
<LaserJock> hmm, I don't know if the url should be changed or not?
<LaserJock> I think that when ubuntu-docs is installed it is placed in /ubuntu/ not /generic/
<theCore> oh, right I forgot I changed that url
<theCore> revert it
<theCore> I don't think it worth the trouble
<LaserJock> theCore: where did you find the info for the <type> ?
<theCore> there is an OMF manual in Yelp
<LaserJock> oh
<theCore> it is in Other Doc. >  Writing ScrollKeeper OMF Files
<LaserJock> theCore: interesting, I'll have to see if I have yelp somwhere :-)
<theCore> ok, gotta go
<LaserJock> cya theCore 
<glatzor> hi
<LaserJock> hi
<glatzor> what happend with the svn repo? i cannot connect to to docteam.u.c
<LaserJock> sites have been on and off today
<LaserJock> the wiki was down for a while and launchpad too
<jjesse> power failure in datacenter
<LaserJock> doc.ubuntu.com works for me now
<jjesse> is what i heard
<LaserJock> bummer
<glatzor> this is sad. there is no mirror available?
<LaserJock> I don't know of any, but don't think it will be down for too long
<mdke> jjesse, I'm not around wrong, best to try email 
<mdke> s/wrong/much *shrugs*
#ubuntu-doc 2006-02-22
<LaserJock> hi jsgotangco 
<jsgotangco> hey!
<LaserJock> hi Madpilot 
<Madpilot> hi LaserJock
<mhz_cook> hey guys!
<mhz_cook> http://moinmoin.wikiwikiweb.de/OpenOfficeConverter
<mhz_cook> http://ooowiki.de/Writer2MoinMoin
<mhz_cook> Madpilot: jsgotangco: please take a look at those
<jsgotangco> hmmm
<mhz_cook> well, unfortunately for me, the more imporved one, is in german
<Madpilot> looks interesting - but I only know enoug German to politely order beer :P
<Kamping_Kaiser> lol
<mhz_cook> lol
<jsgotangco> hmmm
<jsgotangco> nice try
<Madpilot> so this converts stock OOo2 Writer docs to MoinMoin? How good/clean is the output?
<mhz_cook> Madpilot: I have not tried yet...and I was sooooo happy that I started reading in german just in case
<mhz_cook> before even trying it
* mhz_cook was looking for ways to get a Planner file into Moin :D
<mhz_cook> damn! my wife forces me to eat
<mhz_cook> :(
<Madpilot> actually, given that Moin markup is fairly simple, producing clean markup shouldn't be that hard (I'm guessing...)
<mhz_cook> just xml
<jsgotangco> wish it was that simple though
<mhz_back30mins> jsgotangco: http://moinmoin.wikiwikiweb.de/ParserMarket/Gantt
<jsgotangco> WHOA
<jsgotangco> i'll bookmark this first
<mhz> re
<mhz> Any of you guys have Hmtl2Moin.py ?
* mhz lost it
<mhz> and the one found in Moin site is not the real one
<mhz> jsgotangco: ping
<ivonchi> holas
<mhz> ivonchi: holas
<mhz> jsgotangco: got a second?
<jsgotangco> hey
<ivonchi> espaol?
<mhz> jsgotangco: http://mhz.homelinux.org/tuxmania/WikiAprende?action=SlideShow&n=1
<mhz> ivonchi: soy Chileno, y hablo castellano, claro
<ivonchi> okis
<mhz> jsgotangco: I'd like your opinion about that, please
<mhz> jsgotangco: not the text but the rendering of headings as slideshow
<mhz> ivonchi: y tu?
<ivonchi> what? no entender mucho, quieren mi opinion?
<ivonchi> what? no entender mucho, quieren mi opinion?
<mhz> ivonchi: oh. no. I thought you spoke spanish
<jsgotangco> i dont read spanish he
<jsgotangco> why is the heading a bullet?
<mhz> jsgotangco: you dont? :D
<jsgotangco> my spanish is horrible
<mhz> jsgotangco: oh, that is mainly because I have not fixed properly for 1.5
<jsgotangco> the last time i took it was high school
<jsgotangco> it looks great but the title shouldnt be a bullet
<ivonchi> don't worry
<mhz> jsgotangco: no worries. I dont speak japaneese and I receive no cpmplains
<ivonchi> i am peruvian
<ivonchi> and yours?
<mhz> jsgotangco: sure, no bulleted, of course. Did you press 'Quit' ?
<mhz> ivonchi: entonces si hablas castallano
<ivonchi> jejeje, me estan votando?
<mhz> ivonchi: no para nada
<ivonchi> holas mhz, yo hablo espaol
<jsgotangco> wow
<jsgotangco> its moin
<mhz> jsgotangco: yup
<mhz> jsgotangco: and More Actions -> SlideShow please
<jsgotangco> holy
<jsgotangco> is this a plugin?
<mhz> yup
<mhz> SlideShow.py
<mhz> v03
<mhz> jsgotangco: it splits every h2 into ons sinlge slide
<mhz> it will render very well as long as you dont have more than 10 lines in each h2
<mhz> but obviously... it is for Slides so 10 lines is enough
<ivonchi> que tipo de canal es este, de donde son?
<mhz> ivonchi: todos hablan ingles aca
<mhz> ivonchi: es el canal de documentadores de Ubuntu
<ivonchi> ahhhh, tu tambien?
<mhz> bueno... yo aun no colaboro con documentacion en si, pero si con algo de la mantencion del wiki
<mhz> aunque ultimamente he estado mas ocupado en otras cosas del projecto internacional Ubuntu
<mhz> , edubuntu
<ivonchi> 02yo recien toy entrando a este mundo, tengo el ubuntu
<mhz> jsgotangco: so, do you like the idea? do you think this idea could be good for any purpose?
<ivonchi> yo recien toy entrando a este mundo, tengo el ubuntu
<ivonchi> hay algun canal de documentacion en espaol?
<mhz> ivonchi: pero que buscas?
<ivonchi> optimizar mi sistema
<ivonchi> saber instalar cosas basicas
<mhz> ivonchi: ahhh
<mhz> ivonchi: entonces, aca no te ayudaran :)
<mhz> ivonchi: si puedes buscar en #ubuntu-es
<ivonchi> jejeje, okis = un gusto
<mhz> ivonchi: suerte! y si deseas contribuir con documentacion.. ya sabes donde venir
<mhz> ;D
<mhz> ivonchi: creo que a lomejor existe un LoCo team de Peru
<ivonchi> jajaja, hasta ahora todos son de oto pais
<mhz> jsgotangco: ?
<jsgotangco> mhz, sorry i went out for a while
<mhz> ooh, sorry I pushed
<jsgotangco> mhz, it could be useful for some pages though
<EricNeon> hoho
* Burglaptop finally has internet at home again
<jsgotangco> yay
<Burglaptop> and wireless, so I can use my laptop on the couch upstairs
<Burglaptop> I wonder what this atheros/NM breakage is, because I don't see it
<jsgotangco> i had my laptop run xgl and compiz last night
<Burglaptop> hmm, I will try that later this month
<Madpilot> Burglaptop: you bought a wireless router?
<jsgotangco> i think i experienced a buffer overflow in one event though
<jsgotangco> need to verify it later
<Burglaptop> Madpilot: indeed I did
<Burglaptop> it is sad that Daniel Stone left Canonical
<Burglaptop> that means that X fixes are going to be slower, like my touchpad issue
<LaserJock> Daniel Stone left Canonical? and Ubuntu too?
<Burglaptop> LaserJock: I haven't seen him on IRC. He is very young
<Burglaptop> 19 or 20 and still in "first job syndrome"
<LaserJock> I see
<LaserJock> hi theCore 
<theCore> hello LaserJock 
<mhz> Burglaptop: and then, whol will raise that X flag now?
<Burglaptop> no idea
<mhz> hmmm
<Burglaptop> everybody at canonical wheres about 6 hats, so I think most will be able to handle it
<Burglaptop> s/wheres/wears
<Burglaptop> canonical has a very deliberate policy of only hiring generalists
<jsgotangco> well Kinnison joined the distro team a few weeks ago
<Burglaptop> yes, just until dapper releases
<jsgotangco> ahhh
<mhz> ohh
<mhz> he won't be dapper+1 ?
<Burglaptop> funny how you get used to wireless. My desktop machine has not even been plugged in yet
<Burglaptop> bah, xchat-gnome is crap
<atoponce> you should try bitchx
<dsas> Burglaptop: what don't you like about it?, I think it's far better.
<atoponce> i love xchat.  good program
<dsas> xchat-gnome is far easier though.
<jsgotangco> really?
<jsgotangco> i find it a mess
<jsgotangco> i still have to find the rationale behind a scrolling user list
<Burglaptop> indeed, the user list is probably the most broken part about it
<Burglaptop> no first run wizard
<Burglaptop> connecting to a server is terribly non-intuitive
<jsgotangco> yes
<jsgotangco> and Freenode (ubuntu) isn't defaulted
<Burglaptop> yes, xchat is crap, by -gnome is no major improvement and xchat is known crap
<atoponce> to each their own...
<jsgotangco> we could say irssi but hey...
<Burglaptop> I am not primarily concerned about myself. I can work aroudn software
<jsgotangco> atoponce, xchat-gnome seems to defy a lot of current UI that works
<Burglaptop> I want a good default for those who can't
<jsgotangco> the channels on the side is good
<jsgotangco> but userlist?
<jsgotangco> it just feels unnatural for a chat client not to be able to *see* the other people in the room
<atoponce> i think it works great where it is located
<Burglaptop> jsgotangco: can you run "sudo iwevent" and then PM me some of the output. I want to compare
<Burglaptop> jsgotangco: good point about not being able to see anybody
<jsgotangco> Burglaptop, hmmm it might crash me up i'm currently in xgl+compiz
<Burglaptop> jsgotangco: even a console app might crash?
<jsgotangco> yeah
<jsgotangco> Burglaptop, nothing happens
<jsgotangco> Waiting for Wireless Events from interfaces...
* jsgotangco is currently on wire
<Burglaptop> ah, you need to switch and to run NM
<jsgotangco> NM? seriously
<dsas> hmm, I hardly ever used the user side list, and having the channels down the side is a far better use of screen estate imo.
<jsgotangco> that thing doesnt work for me
<Burglaptop> the point of running iwevent is to see what NM is doing
<jsgotangco> ahhh
<Burglaptop> dsas: yes, but not being able to see that somebody is the room is a major issue
<Burglaptop> for instance, if I type #ubuntu-dco, with xchat I will see instantly that it is a typo, because nobody will be listed on the right
<Burglaptop> not so with xchat-gnome
<jsgotangco> dsas, it would have been better if at least you can see the users at startup like what irssi does
<jsgotangco> or erc
<dsas> Burglaptop: I just always look at the topic, but I guess I'm not the average user.
<dsas> I haven't tried irssi
<jsgotangco> you'll like it if you love the console
* dsas spends all day at work in a console
<jsgotangco> irssi :D
<Burglaptop> dsas: the topic is one point of data, but an empty user list another great one
<dsas> apparently i already have irssi installed :)
<Burglaptop> dsas: installed by default
<dsas> that is kind of cool
<Burglaptop> http://uncyclopedia.org/wiki/Ubuntu
<jsgotangco> approved cyborg
<jsgotangco> hahah
<dsas> heh
<dsas> I love the uncyclopedia
<jsgotangco> he kubuntu entry is funny
<Burglaptop> "It is in fact literally true that one can not wipe one's arse with the Daily Mail, as the ink used on the newspaper is in fact fatally poisonous to the arsehole region."
<jsgotangco> FUBUntu
<jsgotangco> lol
<Madpilot> Turuntu, has a Canajan spell checker, eh?
<jsgotangco>  See also
<jsgotangco>     * Ubuntu
<jsgotangco>     * God 
<jsgotangco> God
<jsgotangco> haha
<jsgotangco> jeezz this better than the onion and i rarely read that
<Madpilot> http://uncyclopedia.org/wiki/Free_Sockpuppet_Foundation
<jsgotangco> For those with comedic tastes, the so-called-experts at Wikipedia have an article about: God.
<Madpilot> jsgotangco: Uncyclopedia does that a lot :P
<jsgotangco> yeah
<jsgotangco> SuSE
<jsgotangco> The Free One
<jsgotangco> The Evil Pro One
<dsas> Mortal Kombat's gimmikk was to replake all instankes of the letter 'C' with the letter 'K' (bekause of that feature, it was one of the first applikations to bekome part of KDE). 
<Madpilot> "Like modern car enthusiasts who take a three-cylinder 90hp Honda Civic, strip out all the nice looking parts and add in a black, carbon-fiber hood, a six foot fiberglass spoiler, and a coffee-can for an exhaust, Gentoo is marginally faster, questionably stylish, and likely to break down somewhere unpleasant."
<Madpilot> the KDE article is evil - I like it
<jsgotangco> of kourse
<Burglaptop> where is that gnome/kde Komparison of how they are developed? the one about the shiny room for kde and the beer napkin for gnome?
<Madpilot> "Richard Malodorous Stallman (also known as "rms" or "GNU/Stallman")"
<jsgotangco> hey guys
<jsgotangco> what the heck is this
<jsgotangco> The [WWW]  Documentation Team is organising documentation for Ebuntu, and for more please contact [WWW]  Manish Chakravarty
<robotgeek> i have no clue
<jsgotangco> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Ebuntu
<robotgeek> let's find out, #ebuntu?
<jsgotangco> sure
<Kamping_Kaiser> does the server guide have info on building a mirror?
<MrRio> hey
<MrRio> just a quick note regarding http://doc.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/desktopguide/C/ch01.html SuSE no longer has a lower-case u in its name, all uppercase now
<MrRio> ill patch that i rekon, i need to get stuck in anyway
<Kamping_Kaiser> can i just ping everyone again and ask does the server guide have info on building a mirror?
<MrRio> Kamping_Kaiser: no, i dont think it does
<Kamping_Kaiser> hm. then i might put some real work into the one i did for itshare and see if it becomes docteam grade
<MrRio> Kamping_Kaiser: sounds good :)
<Kamping_Kaiser> *checks wiki* then will work on it :)
<Madpilot> meeting in a few minutes?
<jsgotangco> yeah
<jsgotangco> if people come
<jsgotangco> :)
<Madpilot> heh
<jjesse> oooo another meeting :)
<jjesse> we had a good kubuntu team meeting yesterday, first one
<jsgotangco> it was probably around dawn in my time
* robotgeek is just in time
<jsgotangco> shall we?
<Madpilot> jsgotangco: it's currently just around dawn, my time :P
<Kamping_Kaiser> wb robotgeek
<jsgotangco> its ok next meeting it'll be dawn my time
<robotgeek> thanks Kamping_Kaiser 
<Kamping_Kaiser> :)
<jsgotangco> ok people, bots, whatever, #ubuntu-meeting 
<robotgeek> alrite, cya all later
<jsgotangco> ciao
<Kamping_Kaiser> bhuvan: your in charge of the server bit? do we need/want a bit on making an ubuntu mirror? mrRio sounded like it was an ok thing to try and do. 
<bhuvan> Kamping_Kaiser, ubuntu mirror ?
<Kamping_Kaiser> bhuvan: yeh, a local mirror of an ubuntu server
<bhuvan> ok
<bhuvan> Kamping_Kaiser, is it a public server, or .. ?
<Kamping_Kaiser> bhuvan: no, a local mirror because we don't hvae internet access, so we make a mirror, and take it to a location
<bhuvan> Kamping_Kaiser, ok 
<Kamping_Kaiser> just wondering if we want a guide howto do it in the server guide
<bhuvan> Kamping_Kaiser, valid point. but, server guide is for general public who use ubuntu linux as a server. it explain howto install/configure various applications
<bhuvan> Kamping_Kaiser, i dont personally feel mirroring should be added here. imo, it may be odd
<Kamping_Kaiser> bhuvan: ok. i decided to offer as i wrote half the instructions for the people I'm making the mirror for.
<bhuvan> anyhow, post your need in -doc mailing list
<bhuvan> we can discuss in -doc mailing list
<Kamping_Kaiser> right.
<Madpilot> hmm, caffeine - one advantage to these horribly early Ubuntu meetings is that at least I have time for a pot of tea & breakfast before work :P
<Kamping_Kaiser> <grin>
* Kamping_Kaiser decides nows a good time for bed
<Kamping_Kaiser> or would be if the files were done copying :\
* jsgotangco feels sleepy too
<Madpilot> it's only 0740 here now - the meeting started at 0600 - bleh
<Kamping_Kaiser> 13gig@<100mb :/
<Kamping_Kaiser> heh. it's 02:12 here :/
* Kamping_Kaiser adds next docteam meeting to his launchpad calander
<Madpilot> .au has 30min timezones too, huh?
<Kamping_Kaiser> just 1
<Kamping_Kaiser> time zones are +10, +9.30 and + 8 IIRC
<Kamping_Kaiser> but when it's daylight saving we also have a +9 and a +8.30 IIRC
<Madpilot> Canada has one 30min, over on the Atlantic coast - -4:30, I guess it is
<Kamping_Kaiser> hm
* Kamping_Kaiser puts Madpilot on the 'those crazy canadians' list
<Madpilot> no worries, I've already added you to the "mad Ozzies" list :P
<Kamping_Kaiser> <grin> you have no idea :D
<jsgotangco> Adelaide looks nice
* jsgotangco has been to brisbaine, cairns, alice sydney and canberra
<Kamping_Kaiser> it's about a million people. so not a big city
<Kamping_Kaiser> but still to big for me :)
<Kamping_Kaiser> the hills are nice. Adelaide itself, well, :/
<Madpilot> still haven't been to .au myself - but I got drunk with lots of Australians in Europe while travelling there, so that almost counts :)
<Kamping_Kaiser> rofl.
<Kamping_Kaiser> come and get drunk here :)
<Madpilot> one of these days - just please don't try and serve me Foster's
<jsgotangco> there are 2 things i like in .au: beer and people magazine
<Kamping_Kaiser> Madpilot: don't sugest such a thing!
<Kamping_Kaiser> jsgotangco: havent seen the rag
<Kamping_Kaiser> know what beer is though
<Kamping_Kaiser> Madpilot: coopers ftw
<Madpilot> Hmm... I just tried those <procedure><step> etc DocBook tags that have been mentioned on the ML - they're not as ugly as mdke_ thought they might be
<jsgotangco> coopers, blue tongue hmmm
<Kamping_Kaiser> :)
<jsgotangco> i only tried blue tongue ginger *pukes*
<jsgotangco> once
<Kamping_Kaiser> lol.  i don't like ginger in any shape or form
<Madpilot> ginger in beer? sounds like a bad idea...
<jsgotangco> i only tried a pint and i never bothered again
<Madpilot> damn, it's cold out - 0 C downtown & -1C at the airport...
<Kamping_Kaiser> not bad. last night was so hot i slept without a cover
<Kamping_Kaiser> you must be on the otehr side of the world or somethign :P
<Kamping_Kaiser> *other *something
<Madpilot> something like that - the upright portion, vs the upside down portion :P
<Kamping_Kaiser> :P
<Kamping_Kaiser> if you would sober up you would notice which way around it was mean to go :D
<Madpilot> --> shower - then for my next trick, I'll shock the h**l out of my supervisor by showing up for work *early* for once :D
<Kamping_Kaiser> nooo! don't break with tradition!
<Kaiser_Sleeps> at last :/
<Kaiser_Sleeps> jsgotangco: I'll chat with you about edubuntu tomorrow some time
<mdke_> how was the meeting?
* mdke lumbers off to the logs
<WaterSevenUb> mdke, sorry for the private mail :) the fact is that I sent an email to ubuntu-translators but it doesn't seem to appear:)
<WaterSevenUb> mdke, in fact, your answer to my private mail is already there and my post didn't arrive:)
<mdke> WaterSevenUb, np, are you Rui?
<WaterSevenUb> mdke, yape:)
<mdke> ah ok
<WaterSevenUb> mdke, I made a huge post explaining each argument
<mdke> i think you are right, merging is a bad idea
<WaterSevenUb> mdke, but as it is  taking too long I started to be worried :)
<mdke> but brazilians working on pt to make sure it is finished before working on pt_BR (for example) is a good idea, IMO
<mdke> assuming they know "international" portuguese
<WaterSevenUb> mdke, one thing Portuguese "pt" is not international portuguese
<mdke> oh
<WaterSevenUb> Pt and pt_PT are the same team
<WaterSevenUb> I mean, Pt_Br should be considered a dialect
<mdke> isn't pt_PT international portuguese?
<WaterSevenUb> but Portuguese for historical reasons
<WaterSevenUb> pt and Pt_Pt should be considered the same
<WaterSevenUb> pt_PT is going to be deprecated eventually
<mdke> right
<mdke> good
<mdke> ok, I haven't changed my opinion :)
<WaterSevenUb> :)
<WaterSevenUb> ok... now, pt and pt_PT translations are already
<WaterSevenUb> very good for desktop usage
<WaterSevenUb> if you mix pt_BR with it......
<mdke> jsgotangco, just reading logs, there's nothing wrong with us reviewing passages in guides before the guides are finished. That is why the section tags can help
<WaterSevenUb> it would make a lot of Portuguese users look at Ubuntu 
<WaterSevenUb> with different eyes than they do it today
<mdke> WaterSevenUb, yes, as I said, I take that point
<WaterSevenUb> because nuances are really high:)
<WaterSevenUb> so, imho, pt_br members should not contribute to Pt *unless* they are fluent in Portuguese (Portugal)
<mdke> yes, that is obviously right
<WaterSevenUb> mdke, but there are not many contributors with that capability:) 
<WaterSevenUb> unless they come from linguistics
<WaterSevenUb> or have lived in Portugal.
<mdke> are you sure? they don't learn it at school?
<WaterSevenUb> mdke, yes, they do learn it at school. However, it is very hard for them (or for me when I want to use Pt_BR) to separate the dialect aspect of it.
<mdke> well, i don't know anything about portuguese, I was always talking generally
<WaterSevenUb> if you have, for example the new angola team, something like,
<WaterSevenUb> pt_angola;pt;pt_PT;pt_BR in their environment
<WaterSevenUb> I think there is no reason to mix things
<WaterSevenUb> as the translations will fallback one to another 
<WaterSevenUb> mdke, sorry for not pursuing this discussion further, I have to leave.
<WaterSevenUb> have a nice weekend.
<mdke> np, you too
<jsgotangco> find someone who religiously updates those tags :P
<mdke> jsgotangco, you can review any tag marked as review. When reviewed, mark as finished
<jsgotangco> find someone who religiously updates those tags :P
<mdke> huh?
<mdke> jsgotangco, what do you mean?
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-doc:jsgotangco] :  Ubuntu Documentation Team - general discussion - backlog at http://people.ubuntu.com/~fabbione/irclogs | Website http://doc.ubuntu.com | Get involved: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam | SVN - https://docteam.ubuntu.com/repos | Please observe the Ubuntu community code of conduct @ http://www.ubuntu.com/community/conduct | Next meeting: 3 Mar 2006 21UTC https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/MeetingAgenda |
<LaserJock> sweet, 21 UTC. I can make that
<jjesse> anyone know when flight4 comes out?
<LaserJock> jjesse: "when it's ready"? ;-)
<Burgwork> jjesse, we are waiting on espresso I believe
<jjesse> ok
<LaserJock> much more informative than my stupid comment
<Burgwork> LaserJock, not stupid
<LaserJock> well, non-helpful anyway
<Burgwork> is helpful as anyone who is not in the loop
<LaserJock> hi theCore 
<theCore> hi LaserJock 
<ompaul> fin
<ompaul> seriously wrong window
<LaserJock> :-)
<Kyral> Yo
<Burgwork> salut all
<Kyral> Just got a chance to play with tthe new installer
<Burgwork> did it work?
<Kyral> Aside from no idea that it was there until I went to command line
<Kyral> yah it seems so
<Kyral> I mean small hings like still calling it the GaudaLinux installer
<Kyral> And lack of an icon on the desktop
<Kyral> ..and the POS kernel bug thats hitting often
<theCore> LaserJock, oh I see a commit
<LaserJock> theCore: yeah, some of the omf stuff you sent. I ended up keeping the description the same. I think it is fine and I wanted to keep the chages to a minimum
<theCore> LaserJock, that's okay
<LaserJock> theCore: got any patches for me :-)
<theCore> not yet, I could send what I have to you, but I fear if do, I won't have the same motivation.
<Kyral> okay
<Kyral> time to start snapping screenshots :D
<Burgwork> http://freegeekcolumbus.org/wiki/New_Freekbox_Manual <-- we need to talk to these people
<Kyral> Okay...first up on my Installer Hit Parade, Screenshots!
<mdke_> Kyral, are you working on the existing espresso documentation?
<Kyral> mdke_: There is existing Docs?
#ubuntu-doc 2006-02-23
<mdke_> Kyral, no offense but I already told you twice that there are.
<mdke_> espresso-ubuntu-doc - Ubuntu documentation and help files for Espresso live installer
<mdke_> espresso-guadalinex-doc - Guadalinex documentation and help files for Espresso live installer
<mdke_> i haven't taken a look yet
<mdke_> but it's a vital starting point, in any case
<Kyral> mdke_: Its been hectic recently for me, sorry
<mdke_> np
<mdke_> Kyral, you would want to talk to Kamion about the installer/installer docs, he has been working on those
<Kyral> Yah I spoke to him earlier about it
<mdke_> good stuff
<mdke_> he didn't mention those docs??
<Kyral> I dunno if I told him I was the guy from the DocTeam that would be writing the Documentation though lol
<mdke_> well, anyone is welcome to work on documentation
<mdke_> probably the source for that is in a bzr repo of his
<mdke_> no doubt he'll welcome patches :)
<Kyral> Yuah...but I think I put my name on the list didn't I?
<mdke_> Kyral, dude, this is open source, anyone can contribute. If patches are good, I'm sure Colin will apply them
<Kyral> I know, I just meant I'm "responsible", know what I'm trying to say?
<mdke_> no
<mdke_> Colin is responsible, he'll merge the code
<mdke_> in regard of that package, anyhow
<mdke_> i'm sure he'll accept patches
<Kyral> I didn't mean for the Installer itself. I meant Installing Ubuntu thing
<mdke_> i'm talking about the docs for the installer, I don't know what form it is in
<mdke_> we'll have to install that package and find out
* mdke_ wanders off to bed
<dsas> Does anyone think it's worth linking to "dive into python" from the Programming section of the desktop guide?
<Burgwork> dsas, yep
<Burgwork> foolish not to use an exisiting resource
<Burgwork> also promote python heavily
<Burgwork> mark's vision of python on Ubunt is much like VB on Windows, the everywhere glue language
<dsas> that's what I thought, looking for a tutorial on gtk-python somewhere on the net too...
<dsas> or pygtk even
<mpt__> http://pygtk.org/tutorial.html
<dsas> I'm just looking at that now..
* dsas that tutorial is apt-gettable too :)
<dsas> is there a particular tool people use for editing docbook, or is it just a case of using an editor
<Burgwork> dsas, I use gedit
<dsas> I thought that that was what is was a case of....I've been using vim up to now, but wasn't sure if there was anything "better" out there.
<Burgwork> I have heard that vim/emacs have some nice plugins
<dsas> i'll give those a try sometime then..
<Kyral> the Emacs plugin is just a general plugin for SGML type markup (which Docbook is)
<Kyral> </late>
<dsas> I was more into the idea of the vim one tbh...I'm not an emacs fan.
<mdke> morning
<Madpilot> hi
<mdke> Madpilot, so the <procedure><step> stuff isn't too bad? perhaps we should do it
<Madpilot> you saw my email to the list?
<mdke> not yet
<mdke> just yesterday in here
<mdke> ah i see :(
<Madpilot> it looks OK, but it seems to slow Yelp's loading down even further - and common-tasks.xml is currently non-valid
<mdke>  someone went ahead and converted it?
<Madpilot> yeah, haven't reviewed the commit email to see who - jjesse maybe
<mdke> unlikely
<Madpilot> Author: jeffsch
<Madpilot> Date: Sat Feb 18 00:18:32 2006
<Madpilot> New Revision: 2440
<Madpilot> Modified:
<Madpilot>   trunk/ubuntu/desktopguide/C/common-tasks.xml
<Madpilot> Log:
<Madpilot> replaced itemizedlist and listitem tags with procedure and step tags
<Madpilot> ...and he must not have run the validation script...
<mdke> gah
<mdke> i think i would have preferred him to wait for us to discuss it, but hey, we can always revert if it is bumming stuff up
<Madpilot> I won't paste the /.validate script errors, it's several terminal screens long
<mdke> i'll chec it out now
<mdke> desktopguide.xml validates ok
<mdke> he says, without svn upping
<Madpilot> rev 2440 is current
<mdke> ok i get this: http://pastebin.com/560823
<Madpilot> that looks like what I get
<Madpilot> see my email - it does work in Yelp, but seems slower
<mdke> hmm
<mdke> i'm bad at judging speed
<mdke> hopefully jeffsch will reply and tell us what he is up to
<Madpilot> ...and how to fix common-tasks...
<Madpilot> anyway, the diff I created fixes a few minor things, if you think it's worth committing - typos & status tags, mostly
* mdke thinks
<mdke> it may be easier to revert jeffsch's change if we don't apply it quite yet
<mdke> although, it shouldn't be too difficult anyway
<Madpilot> yeah, was thinking that too
<mdke> which?
<Madpilot> not bothering with my patch until we figure out what we're doing abou the invalid code...
<mdke> alright, we can keep it on standby
<mdke> i'll apply dsas's patch tho
<Madpilot> I'd fogotten about his - only to config-system, so no conflict w/ our c-t issues
<mdke> actually, let's apply your patch
<mdke> then if jeff needs to revert the procedures, we don't lose your changes
<Madpilot> sure
<mdke> if we revert first, it may be difficult to reapply your changes
<mdke> Madpilot, now, on the "Synaptic/Advanced" point
<mdke> you're probably right
<mdke> actually, you're definitely right
<Madpilot> OK, I'll patch that tomorrow sometime, unless someone beats me to it
<Madpilot> Anyway, need to get off this damned machine, I got up at 0600 local to join the docteam meeting, and it's now almost 0200 local... :P
<mdke> ok, good night
<Madpilot> talk to you tomorrow sometime
<mdke> okies
<Kamping_Kaiser> bugger. wanted to talk to js
<mdke> Kamping_Kaiser, can I help?
<Kamping_Kaiser> mdke: i was just going to ask about edubuntus docs and what was happening with them. don't know if your familar with what they are doing.
<mdke> a bit
<mdke> there are 2 documents in our repository
<mdke> about edubuntu, and release notes
<mdke> there is a cookbook project, which you'll find in launchpad
<jsgotangco> about to add one more :)
<mdke> Kamping_Kaiser, ah, you can talk to jsgotangco about it
<Kamping_Kaiser> cool. thanks mdke
<Kamping_Kaiser> hi jsgotangco :0
<jsgotangco> the cookbook is a bit vaporware for now....we havent seen it at all
<Kamping_Kaiser> i have the wiki page open right now - is that it in it's entirity?
<jsgotangco> so me and mhz_food thought of doing a quickguide for the edubuntu apps
<mdke> i thought the cookbook is quite far progressed?
<Kamping_Kaiser> so a quick help on each one? or some major/usefull apps?
<mdke> that was posted to the list recently
<jsgotangco> i dunno there is supposed to be a baz archive but the usa folks say its in lore
<mdke> jsgotangco, have a look at it, it's registered in launchpad. Lore is a format, not a version control system. I believe there is a bzr branch you can grab
* mdke looks
<jsgotangco> mdke, even the edubuntu meetings haven't been successful on this...
<mdke> https://launchpad.net/people/kjcole/+branch/edubuntu.cookbook/wip
<jsgotangco> ask mhz_food he knows about it
<mdke> shame they didn't work with our tools
<jsgotangco> thats what we were saying
<jsgotangco> i've used lore but its not useful for our workflow
<jsgotangco> http://wiki.ubuntu.com/Ebuntu
<jsgotangco> eeeekkkk
<jsgotangco> not that one
<jsgotangco> http://wiki.ubuntu.com/Edubuntu
<jsgotangco> where is that
<jsgotangco> hrmm
<jsgotangco> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/EdubuntuSoftwareList
<jsgotangco> Kamping_Kaiser, if you look at that url, it shows the desktop apps
<Kamping_Kaiser> jsgotangco: just opening now
<jsgotangco> we were thinking of putting that as a doc then add more info on age group, field of study etc.
<Kamping_Kaiser> jsgotangco: wow. big list
<jsgotangco> well excluding the server apps
<LaserJock> mhz: I love your descriptive nicks :-)
<mhz> LaserJock: lol
<mhz> thx
<mhz> LaserJock: i think it is more personalized and very specific. I can't see the point of beeing 'away'
<LaserJock> yes, I especially like _dishes ;-)
<LaserJock> but I bet you don't
<mhz> LaserJock: hehehe, I certainly do, or else my wife would kick me badly
<manicka> which parts of the kubuntu docs are in need of the most love at the moment?
<jjesse> desktop guide
<jjesse> we are making a reall push to make sure that it is done by doc freeze date
<manicka> k
<robotgeek> hey manicka 
<manicka> yeah
<robotgeek> hey jjesse 
<manicka> hi
<jjesse> hiya robotgeek
<robotgeek> i wiped my breezy box, and was on to go on a trip. <sigh>
<jjesse> installing dapper on it? or waiting for official release of flight4?
<robotgeek> jjesse: no, i am moving. 
<robotgeek> i was supposed to be on a flight, and that was cancelled
<jjesse> bummer
<robotgeek> my backup data is on it's way to it's destination, however. 
<robotgeek> it will probably get there before I do, lol
<mdke> evening
<jjesse_> evening :)
<jjesse_> mdke: do you have a second?
<mdke> jjesse_, yes
<jjesse_> riddell mentioned that to get the systelsheets looking correctly on doc.ubuntu.com that the kdelibs directory needs to be setup on the server or soemthing like that
<jjesse_> i can't find the log 
<jjesse_> where he told me exactly what needed to be changed/added
<mdke> perhaps you could get him to hang out here
<mhz> .oO(someone mentioned me few hours ago.. why... I never got to see the log. I guess nothing impart it was))
<jjesse_> sure let me see if he is available
<mdke> I saw the xincludes have been stripped out of the kubuntu desktop guide
<jjesse_> i saw that as well
<mdke> jjesse_, can you email me the details? I've got to go now
<jjesse_> mdke: will do
<LaserJock> hi jjesse_ and mdke 
<LaserJock> I was just reading sounder and noticed the doc-team sprint idea. Is that going to happen (in any form)?
<jjesse_> LaserJock: i don't rembmer how the discussion ended but i thought at one time it was going to be over the phone?
<LaserJock> jjesse_: do you know who all is going to be involved?
<jjesse_> no idea, i don't even know if it got settled as actually happening
<LaserJock> I like the idea. It would also be nice to have some meetings with some of the website people/CC/TB .
#ubuntu-doc 2006-02-24
<LaserJock> hi arnieboy again ;-)
<arnieboy> hey there LaserJock sup?
<LaserJock> not much, trying to work on some bugs and write some doc, etc.
<LaserJock> and you?
<arnieboy> ahh well.. nothing much.. worked for half of the day.. fought with my girlfriend.. made up and now am probably gonna watch a movie and have dinner
<LaserJock> I see, have fun then :-)
<arnieboy> yo u too bud
<LaserJock> thanx
<LaserJock> although a movie does sound much better the writing docs
<arnieboy> yeah well writing docs isnt all that bad either
<Madpilot> gah, I just created an xml diff so big it's being held by the list software... :P
<LaserJock> lol
<LaserJock> gotta keep'm small Madpilot ;-)
<Madpilot> seems list attachments have to be below 40Kb - the two I just sent off are ~60Kb total...
<LaserJock> I don't want svn to choke trying to update :-)
<Madpilot> actually, the svn diff for config-system.xml is larger than the real xml file...
<LaserJock> yeah, I had a few of those for the packaging guide when I first started redoing it
<Madpilot> anyway, Jerome will probably just apply the patches; he's our ML admin and has commit rights too
<LaserJock> I had one that was almost twice the size of the xml
<LaserJock> Madpilot: do you know if he is the only ML admin?
<Madpilot> you must have been changing every single line in the file...
<LaserJock> pretty much
<Madpilot> LaserJock: not sure, actually. Probably not
<LaserJock> I just wondered
<LaserJock> hmm, interesting
<dsas> isn't that the automatix guy?
<Madpilot> yes
<LaserJock> he was in -motu also. First time I've seen him on IRC
<Madpilot> he showed up in #ubuntu a month or three ago, trolling
<Madpilot> there is a #ubuntuforums channel that he & the forum crowd use
<dsas> yeah, I think I've stopped by there once.
<LaserJock> well, I'm glad to see him but I wonder what his point was. Oh well.
<LaserJock> mhz: done with dinner? :-)
<mhz> LaserJock: heheh, yeah, and even saw a bit of Toy Story with my daughter
<mhz> LaserJock: what is your TZ ?
<LaserJock> I'm -8 so I just had dinner as well
<mhz> Madpilot: so did you like the SlideShow.py ?
<LaserJock> I love Toy Story, one of my favorite movies
<mhz> I had never seen it and I think it is a very well done and fun movie
<Madpilot> mhz: that's pretty cool - cross-browser, too
<mhz> Madpilot: so you tried it?
<Madpilot> just the sample one that was linked to - works nicely in Opera
<mhz> Madpilot: I am using it in all my wikis
<mhz> in case you wanna give it a try
* mhz willtry MonthCalendar and Writer2Moin (ooo2moin) tonite
<LaserJock> mhz: got any URLs, I missed them earlier?
<mhz> LaserJock: for?
<mhz> SlideShow?
<LaserJock> yeah
<LaserJock> I know you do a bunch of wiki stuff, I had a URL once, but I can't find it at the moment
<mhz> oh, sure, gimme a sec
<LaserJock> I amazed at the stuff that can be done with wiki and I just haven't been able to learn as much as I would like
<mhz> LaserJock: yeah, once you get to understand that simplicity is power, it is possible to do many stuff with a well set wiki
<mhz> LaserJock: sorry for taking so long, I was on the phone
<mhz> http://mhz.homelinux.org/tuxmania/WikiAprende?action=SlideShow
<mhz> to see the SlideShow example
<mhz> when you are done, click 'quit' at the bottom menu
<LaserJock> cool, we should do release notes/announcements that way
<LaserJock> hmm, RenderAsDocbook is cool as well
<Kyral> Oy...
<Kyral> so much to do
<Kyral> and where the heck will I fit in Ubuntu
<LaserJock> Kyral: don't worry, you will ;-)
<Kyral> You don't understand 
<Kyral> In response to my blowing the first round of exams
<mhz> LaserJock: hehe, I always do my presentations in a wiki page that then is shown using SlideShow, so I only do the work once and it is wikied at the same time, for searches purposes
<Kyral> I decided that I have to redo my lifestyle
<Kyral> So now I'm studying 3 hours a day, working out for almost 2
<Kyral> in addition to 5 hours of classes
<LaserJock> Kyral: ahh, I'm getting there too, work, home, Ubuntu
<dsas> mhz, that is pretty cool.
<Kyral> Ah, I think I can fit in Ubuntu somewhere on Thursdays lol
<Kyral> So guys if I drop off the face of the earth, you know that its not because I don't care, its because I need to kickass on my grades :D
<mhz> dsas: thx, it is moin power
<LaserJock> Kyral: my problem has been compounded by my Ubuntu box at work being replaced with an iMac so it is much more difficult to work.
<dsas> any chance of getting that stuff on the ubuntu wiki?
<LaserJock> Kyral: don't drop off the face of the earth, just check in once in a while ;-)
<Kyral> LJ, if I don't do well inschool, then I don't have a job :P
<Kyral> and if I don't have a job, then I don't have Internet
<Kyral> I doubt that even Canonical would hire me lol
<LaserJock> Kyral: if you do well in school they might ;-)
<mhz> dsas: I guess so, if we talk to hno73
<mhz> (he's more into moin everyday)
<Kyral> LaserJock: I'd prolly wind up at IBM :D
<Kyral> LaserJock: They hire like 90% of the CompSci Majors from my school
<LaserJock> mhz: is there an English version by chance. I'm sadly unilingual :(
<dsas> mhz, sounds good.
<dsas> I'm working 7 hours each day, + 2 hours travelling, plus an hours lunch....there's nothing like bug triaging on a windows box in your lunch hour ;)
<mhz> LaserJock: hmmm, nope, but I will show you something more in english, gimme a sec
<LaserJock> dsas: yeah, that's what I was doing on Bug Day, except from OSX :-)
<LaserJock> mhz: I was wondering what the moodle stuff was about.
<dsas> heh, it's quite annoying, but you can still get stuff done.
<LaserJock> dsas: yeah, although I'm finding that OSX is a bit better since it has a *nix base
* mhz using linphone with colombia
<dsas> is there much you can do with the nix base in terms of bug triage though?
<LaserJock> dsas: not so much but I can ssh to a debian box I set up with a dapper chroot. But for general use for me (packaging and writing docs) OSX is easier than XP, so far anyway.
<LaserJock> dsas: although, if fink or darwinports worked on my iMac I think it would be quite a bit better.
<dsas> ahh, that's good. I don't have a ubuntu box at work - we only have two linux boxes altogether.
<LaserJock> right now I either use my Windows laptop or my OSX iMac to ssh to either my debian box or my Ubuntu box at hoe
<LaserJock> s/hoe/home/
<dsas> that's quite good, we're not allowed to ssh out to anywhere...and I can't imagine taking my laptop into work for some reason...
<LaserJock> well, I ssh from the laptop at home to the Ubuntu box at home. Being able to sit in my recliner and work on stuff overwhelms my disgust with XP ;-)
<Kyral> I ssh from anywhere on Campus with my Lappy
<Kyral> and as soon as i get my FSF Membership card, I won't need the lappy :D
<dsas> Kyral, you have five hours of classes per day at university?
<LaserJock> lol, you'll just "use the source" ;-)
<Kyral> It still amuses me that my FSF Membership card also doubles as a LiveCD
<Kyral> dsas: 6 on Monday, 5 on Wed, Fri
<dsas> I ssh'd to my desktop earlier from the other side of my room to skip a track 
<Kyral> 2 every other week on Tues
<Kyral> and Thursday OFF
<dsas> ahh that's not so bad, I thought five hours each day...I only do 12 a week.
<Kyral> Yah but now throw in almost 2 hours of workout and 3 hours of studying ;D
<Kyral> every day
<dsas> s/do/did
<Kyral> It will break me, and make me go further
<LaserJock> Kyral: yeah, I've always heard "1 hour of studying for every hour of class time"
<dsas> oh yeah, I was just surprised of that level of classes.
<Kyral> plus I can actually bitch about being tired at the end of the day :D
<LaserJock> Kyral: how many credits are you taking?
<Kyral> and feel justified collapsing into my chair at the end of the day
<Kyral> 19
<LaserJock> yeah, that is quite a bit of work. I usually did 18-22 but a lot of the time I had a few "fun" classes like chemistry that didn't take much time
<Kyral> Thats the Max Courseload for non-Honors students
<Kyral> and even Honors only get to take something like 21 creds
<Kyral> But only 16 of those are actual Classes
<Kyral> the other three come from Open Source Projects and the Internet Teaching Lab
<LaserJock> cool
<LaserJock> I often wish I'd done a CS major
<Kyral> lol
<dsas> you get credits for working on OSS?
<Kyral> dsas: yah
<Kyral> I'm using Ubuntu as my project :D
<dsas> that's cool, we don't have anything like that. What are the course requirements - I mean how do they measure passing the module?
<Kyral> I'm taking a minor in IT
<Kyral> http://cosi.clarkson.edu/c4c.php
<LaserJock> hmm, I did Chemistry and Applied Mathematical Sciences, hardly any computing at all :(
<Kyral> Actually this
<Kyral> http://www.clarkson.edu/projects/cosi/fa2005/
<Kyral> Open Source Projects is more often called "COSI For Credit"
<Kyral> Chimata, that reminds me that I have to get my page up
<Kyral> http://www.clarkson.edu/projects/cosi/sp2006/ <-- Better because it notes me giving a presentation on LP :D
<dsas> I've done two years of a Computer Science degree, I start back again in September to finish off my final year.
<Kyral> I want to add Software Engineering to my Minor
<Kyral> but I have to talk with my Advisor about that
<LaserJock> darn, I've never had a CS related class in my life. My advisor doesn't consider it very important for me. :(
<Kyral> Hmm
<dsas> I toyed with doing software engineering, but I decided I wanted a CS degree...
<Kyral> my documentation on the new Installer could very well nail me 2 creds
<Kyral> Shit I have to get working on that
<mhz> LaserJock: sorry i took so long, I just ended conversation with colombia
<mhz> http://mhz.homelinux.org/elwiki/EmacsCommands?action=SlideShow&n=1
<mhz> LaserJock: i hope you like that one
<mhz> LaserJock: and regardign the Moodle thing, I was proposing to use Moin + Moodle. Moin it is by far (imho) one of the most powerful wikis out there. So, ifwe used Moin interwiki capabilities (most wikis have it) and we train educational communities to generate their contents in a wiki fashion, we can easily interconnect their knowledge base with all wikis in the world, so when you do searches for "Augusto Pinochet" you get mathces from different wikis
<mhz> , but the best thing is that you get what a teacher in Colombia wrote about this chilean dictator, as well as you get the other teachers ideas and writings
<Burglaptop> salut all
<LaserJock> hi Burglaptop 
<dsas> hallo
<Madpilot> Burglaptop: welcome back to being connected to the world :P
* Burglaptop grumbles at xchat-gnome
* dsas has just installed it in breezy
<LaserJock> breezy, who runs breezy ;-)
<Burglaptop> it is nice to have internet at home
<Burglaptop> I have also been sucked back into Civ3 by my roommate
<Kamping_Kaiser> lol
<dsas> I spend most of my time in my dapper install, but I made the partition to small so it gets annoying after a while, I'm going to install dapper on my main install sometime though.
<Madpilot> Aside from Jerome, who else has admin rights over the -doc ML?
<Burglaptop> we discussed adding me, but it never happened\
<Madpilot> I've just got a set of diffs caught by the filter - over attachment limits, it seems
<Burglaptop> my laptop works great in Ubuntu, except for a small touchpad issue
<Burglaptop> s/Ubuntu/dapper
<Burglaptop> geez I am tired
<dsas> me too, good night all.
<Burglaptop> Madpilot: so what do you think of my latest hare-brained scheme?
<Madpilot> FreeGeekVictoria? sounds cool
<Burglaptop> more likely to be called ReLectronics Victoria
<Madpilot> Burglaptop: from your email - "on the Sunday after LinuxFestNorthwest." - does this mean you're going to stay in Bellingham overnight?
<Burglaptop> Madpilot: likely Monday as well
<Burglaptop> nothing is set in stone yet
<Madpilot> OK, guess I'll have an empty seat in the plane on the way home
<Burglaptop> don't start planning with what to do with that seat quite yet
<Madpilot> no worries
<Burglaptop> hmm, anacortes is not that far from bellingham
<Madpilot> nope. What's in Anacortes?
<Burglaptop> ferry to sidney, for coming back on Mon, if possible
<Madpilot> ah
<Burglaptop> bloody hell, it appears that the washington state ferries website doesn't work in epip
<Burglaptop> https://secure1.wsdot.wa.gov/ferries/webres/index.cfm
<Burglaptop> can you try that?] 
<Burglaptop> try and select a sailing schedule
<Madpilot> http://www.wsdot.wa.gov/ferries/schedules/current/index.cfm
<Burglaptop> doesn't list the summer schedule, which starts april 2
<Madpilot> yeah - awful website, actually...
<LaserJock> you guys every go to the San Jaun Islands?
<Burglaptop> LaserJock: not in recently
<LaserJock> I went sailing there for a week when I was like a Freshmen in college, very beautiful
<Madpilot> Burglaptop: best bet is probably to phone Wash. Ferries, that website is hopeless
<Burglaptop> ya, will do so monday
<LaserJock> anybody know if we have text copies of the FDL and CC-SA licenses in the svn repo?
<Madpilot> I think so - in the generic directory?
<Madpilot> actually in common/C
<Madpilot> we've got the GPL in there too for some reason
<LaserJock> GPL is for the Packaging Guide, but I was looking for plain text, not XML
<monzie> hi all
<monzie> i was working on a WYSIWYG wiki markup editor written in GTK
<monzie> to automate the ''' stff
<monzie> stuff
<monzie> does it have demand in the real world?
<Madpilot> monzie: I understand that the latest version of MoinMoin has a Whizzy editor of some sort already - the Ubuntu wiki hasn't been updated yet, though
<monzie> okay Madpilot, i need one cause https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LiveCDInstallHowTo is what i am working on  now
<monzie> and it's goin to be BIG
<Madpilot> I think the new MoinMoin also has a desktop editor of some sort
<mdke> Madpilot, if you send me the patch, i'll apply it
<Madpilot> mdke: will do, then I'll just cancel the mail to the list
<mdke> ok
<Madpilot> sent
<mdke> got it
<Madpilot> I hadn't realized the attach limit was so low - 40Kb to the list
<mdke> hmm
<mdke> have you svn upped?
<mdke> your common tasks patch was a bit odd
<Madpilot> hmm, it was current when I created it, I'm pretty sure
<mdke> oh, perhaps I missed something
<mdke> yeah, my bad
<mdke> ok thanks
<mdke> you rock
<Madpilot> np - the config-system diff is so big because it's a complete recoding to procedure/step markup
<Madpilot> the diff is actually bigger than the real config-system.xml...
<mdke> lol
<mdke> so what do we need to focus on atm for the desktop guide?
<mdke> it's looking in reasonable shape
<Madpilot> content-wise, I'm not sure - been focussing on the code for a few days now.
<Madpilot> I only just noticed that we have an actual iPod section now... :P
<mdke> not a particularly long one though
<Madpilot> code-wise, the other two main files - getting-started & getting-help - need to be moved to procedure/step and tidied a bit
<mdke> tidied how?
<mdke> I will look at them today
<Madpilot> I'm just going through getting-started now, actually.
<Madpilot> hmm, should we have OSX ISO burning instructions as well as XP & Ubuntu ones?
<mdke> i'm not convinced we should have XP/UBuntu ones even :)
* mdke looks
<mdke> yeah I don't like the software specific burning instructions
<mdke> Nero >_<
<Madpilot> that's the trouble with OSes that ship incomplete, like XP does...
<Madpilot> is there a definition tag for Docbook?
<mdke> what is that?
<Madpilot> found it - <variablelist>
<Madpilot> dictionary or glossary type list-markup
<Madpilot> http://opensource.bureau-cornavin.com/crash-course/variablelist.html
<Madpilot> ...for the Common Commands list in Getting Started, in our case
<mdke> ah nice
<mdke> getting started/introduction is so long...
<Madpilot> more tag soup, though - but nice semantic markup for the translators, I guess
<mdke> i don't think getting-help needs procedure tags
<mdke> it's not a procedure, i prefer bullet points for those
<Madpilot> the ISO-burning stuff?
<mdke> no, the getting-help chapter at the end
<Madpilot> haven't even looked at it - but yeah, that works just as a bulleted list
<Madpilot> or whatever - it's actually a numbered list right now
<mdke> i'll upload a change to that quickly
<mdke> hello dsas, just wanted to say thanks for the great work on the programming stuff lately
<dsas> mdke: I'm not sure about great, but no problem.
<dsas> mdke: It's quite satisfying to give things back
<mdke> you bet
<Madpilot> It helps to remind yourself of this while you're beating your head against some XML that isn't behaving... :P
<mdke> Madpilot, you love your XML :)
<Madpilot> right now I am confused by my XML - the errors Yelp is giving me don't make any sense
<Madpilot> sod it - mdke, I've got a lot of changes done to getting-start.xml, but I can't figure out the errors that Yelp & the validate script are throwing out - it's late here...
<Madpilot> could I just send you the diff and you can have a look at the code?
<mdke> Madpilot, of course
<Madpilot> OK, thanks -  just a minute 
<Madpilot> mdke: sent
<mdke> ok
<mdke> i'll have a look later one
<mdke> one/on
<Madpilot> thanks - I'm off. Suddenly it's past 0300  - no wonder the XML wasn't making sense anymore
<mdke> nighty nighty
* mdke reboots the help/preview server
<Kamping_Kaiser> i'm about to make a link to the online help for ubuntu. do you recommend help.ubuntu as the stable, or doc.ubuntu as the more up to date one to link to?
<mhz> morning guys
<Kamping_Kaiser> hi mhz
<dsas> morning
<mhz> Will this be useful for wiki-newbies ? I could make even more userfrinedly if you guys consider it useful?
<mhz> http://mhz.homelinux.org/tuxmania/WikiCourse/BasicIntroduction/000_What_is_a_Wiki%3F
<mhz> hi Kamping_Kaiser and dsas 
<Kamping_Kaiser> hi dsas
<dsas> Kamping_Kaiser: help.ubuntu.com will be updated in a couple of months, and pointing towards doc.ubuntu.com may confuse people with some dapper specific stuff
<Kamping_Kaiser> ok. help it is. :)
<dsas> mhz: I can't see the text on "tips on the editor" without selecting it..
<mhz> dsas: GUI editor?
<mhz> dsas: or which page?
<dsas> http://mhz.homelinux.org/tuxmania/WikiCourse/BasicIntroduction/091_Tips_on_the_Editor
<dsas> the text in the table.
* mhz tabbing
<mhz> dsas: oh, thx, that's using Theme font color. Ok, try it now
<dsas> that's much better
<mhz> dsas: thx for pinting it. I was used to use black font color on my themes :)
<mhz> pointing
<dsas> mhz: I think it's quite useful, it's taught me something anyway
<mhz> cool
<mhz> do you think it could work for a "Before you screw our wiki" Tour ?
<dsas> it covers some topics that aren't typical newbie tasks too.
<jsgotangco> yeah let's add that screw our wiki clause
<mhz> lol
<mhz> so, IMHO, SlideShow macro renders and works much better because it takes only one page and splits according to = headings =
<mhz> I can talk to hno73 about including such macro, I can make those slides become one single wiki page, and users will take this tour in a more userfriendly way 
<mhz> would you agree?
<mhz> (SlideShow single page is even less expensive for low bandwith users and they can even save it and print it faster)
<mhz> The only thing I'd like to add so far, is examples with Ubuntu pages, andonce it is done, I'd appreciate peer reviewing, please
<jsgotangco> mdke, that's a very fine cabinet
<dsas> mhz_breakfast: Personally I think I preferred the slideshow format you did last night - the single page one.
<mhz_breakfast> dsas: me too, " SlideShow macro renders and works much better..."
<mhz_breakfast> the only detail is I have no projector to try fonst size (SlideShow rendering is CSS dependant)
<dsas> oh right, sorry. I didn't realise that that's what it meant.
<mhz_breakfast> :)
<mhz_breakfast> so, if any of you could try CSS SlideShow with a projector, please let me know about fonts sizes
* mhz_breakfast is back in 40 mins
<dsas> should've read it properly. The amount of people using a projector to browse a wiki must be quite small :)
<mhz_breakfast> ohh, BTW, those wiki slides should already be in wiki.ubuntu... /data dirs
<cyclister> hi
<cyclister> I want to ask some strange question that might be not spelled open in this chat, want to chat with someone if someone want
<cyclister> not in terms of sexual matters =S
<cyclister> ok ya u where really fun to chat with
<cyclister> have a nice
<jsgotangco> lol
<mdke> jsgotangco, yeah i like it
<mdke> Kamping_Kaiser, doc.ubuntu.com is not online help
<Kamping_Kaiser> mdke: so it's just the docteams playground?
<mdke> yes
<jsgotangco> you should point to help.ubuntu.com
<Kamping_Kaiser> ok. will do
<mdke> Kamping_Kaiser, what are you working on, out of interest?
<Kamping_Kaiser> mdke: one of the groups i volenteer with recently had a change in governemtn, and I'm now in charge of the website. I'm making changes to the site http://www.itshare.org.au/live/component/option,com_weblinks/catid,23/Itemid,51/
<mdke> oh right cool
<mdke> i thought we got rid of the sample/ directory for the server guide?
<mdke> jdub, around?
* mdke looks impatiently for Madpilot
* mdke grabs Madpilot 
<mdke> oh cool, you emailed
<Madpilot> yeah, just did - patch looks good
<mhz> re
<Madpilot> why remove the wiki from Getting Help, though?
<mdke> because hopefully there will just be one link for documentation by dapper
<mdke> if not, we can re-add the link
<Madpilot> of course - so the help.u.c wiki is actually moving forward?
<mdke> well, the spec is ready
<mdke> we're waiting on a server
<Madpilot> cool - I noticed that the UserDocumentationBeta page is fairly complete
<Madpilot> although the ppl doing most of it are a bit too fond of creating unnecessary subpages, I think
<mdke> yes, i replied on list saying they should stick to the current structure for now
<mdke> and just migrate the links
<mdke> add your comments
<Madpilot> My favourite is the extra collected-Opera-help page that was created, when there is only one page for Opera in the entire wiki...
<mdke> yes, i don't think it makes sense to reorganise the wiki AND write new content at the same time
<mdke> it's biting off too much at once
<LaserJock> mdke: we don't have plain text copies of FDL and CC-SA do we?
<mdke> don't think so, but they are on the websites
<LaserJock> ubuntu websites or GNU and Creative Commons websites?
<mdke> the latter
<mdke> Madpilot, any thoughts on the common preface.xml?
<LaserJock> ok
<Madpilot> mdke: sounds like a good idea, haven't really looked at the content though - it's the same Conventions &c that we already had in UDG, right?
<LaserJock> mdke: I think the common preface is a good idea. Will it include license info?
<mdke> yes, although i cut a bit out
<mdke> LaserJock, i don't think so, does it currently?
<LaserJock> I'm not sure, I guess it comes in the bookinfo.xml
<mdke> yes i think that's right
<LaserJock> I was thinking that would be really the only reason why the Packaging Guide couldn't use a common preface so I wanted to make sure
<mdke> yep, i think it's ok
<LaserJock> mdke: btw, I asked about the FDL/CC-SA licenses because the copyright file for the ubuntu-docs package currently says that the docs are GPL :(
<mdke> yes, if you want you can take that bug
<mdke> it's 27923
<mdke> i hadn't got round to it so far
<LaserJock> yah, I'll do it.
<mdke> thanks
<Madpilot> mdke: getting-started.xml still isn't loading in Yelp/Breezy, and not validating either :(
<mdke> argh
<Madpilot> http://paste.ubuntu-nl.org/8905
<Madpilot> validation errors ^^^
<mdke> must be the slash
<mdke> oh i see
<mdke> doh
<Madpilot> it's that damned variable list tag I tried to get clever with last night, but with odd refs to other tags that look OK...
<mdke> no, it's that you can't have spaces in id="" attributes
<mdke> did you svn up?
<Madpilot> yeah, that was on a current checkout, including your commit of a few minutes ago
<mdke> i didn't get the same errors as you
<mdke> svn up again and try
<Madpilot> same errors
<mdke> works here
<mdke> do "svn status"
<mdke> maybe common-tasks hasn't been updated for you because you edited it earlier
<Madpilot> yeah, I just deleted the whole desktopguide folder, replaced with svn, and it validates :P
<mdke> svn revert common-tasks.xml would have worked :)
<Madpilot> the blunt-object method works too
<mdke> heh, anyhow, you made me pick up another error :)
<mdke> ok, -> bed
<Madpilot> it works in Yelp now as well
<Madpilot> later
<LaserJock> we are using CC-SA version 2.5, right?
<Madpilot> 2.0, at least on the Ubuntu Desktop Guide currently
<LaserJock> hmm, interesting
#ubuntu-doc 2006-02-25
<LaserJock> hi bshumate and Burglaptop 
<Burglaptop> salut LaserJock
<LaserJock> hmm, is there a XML to plain text converter?
<Burglaptop> LaserJock: look on your system for a xml2 utility
<LaserJock> Burglaptop: yeah, I was doing it on an OSX machine and didn't see any xml2 stuff. I just used a quick python script from the Python Cookbook
<LaserJock> Kyral: ok, are you working on basic.xml?
<Kyral> NO
<Kyral> damn caps
<Kyral> no
<Kyral> mistakes.xml
<LaserJock> have you updated your repo? I thought I got rid of that
<Kyral> I did
<Kyral> it had # #
<Kyral> meaning it was a backup file
<Kyral> where is the error checking file now...
<LaserJock> basic.xml
<Kyral> Ah I see it
<Kyral> cut and paste time :D
<LaserJock> yeah
<Kyral> I just added a small line to see if I got the hang of it
<Kyral> I'll diff it now and send it to you
<Kyral> Want me to remove that backup file too?
<LaserJock> yeah, because that is yours not the repos. do "svn status"
<Kyral> yah one file modded, the basic.xml
<LaserJock> ok, so did you get rid of the # # file?
<Kyral> Yah....but its not showing up in the diff
<Kyral> LJ Email?
<LaserJock> mantha@u.c
<Kyral> sent
<Kyral> I dunno if I did the formatting right...Bluefish showed me the Ordered List thing, which I thought would be a good idea for the ErrorChecking thing
<LaserJock> Kyral: what directory did you do svn diff in?
<Kyral> ~
<Kyral> which is right above ubuntu-doc
<LaserJock> Kyral: it is easier if you run it in the actual directory of the file
<Kyral> oh
<LaserJock> I had to go to ~ to apply it or change the -p flag
<LaserJock> Kyral: anyway, if you want to work on that, check out http://ftp-master.debian.org/REJECT-FAQ.html and https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/Packages/Reviewing
<Kyral> mkay
<LaserJock> Kyral: and send me a diff whenever your done with a decent chunk. ;-)
<Burglaptop> LaserJock: do you know of any open source tools to do low level formatting of a hdd?
<LaserJock> Burglaptop: oh geeze. I don't. Kyral, your the CS major. Do you know?
<Kyral> dd?
<Kyral> something like dd if=/dev/zero of=/dev/<hdd you wanna nuke>
<Burglaptop> Kyral: how easy is it recover data after that operation? (I want it to be as hard as possible)
<Burglaptop> and is there a nice wrapper script that detects all harddrives on the system and then formats them in sequence? (I could write one, but am lazy)
<Burglaptop> never mind, just found dban
<Kyral> Burglaptop: umm
<Kyral> if you consider that /dev/zero is literally a source for zeros
<Kyral> You are basically filling the drive with zeros
<Kyral> now more fun would be doing /dev/random and then /dev/zero
<Burglaptop> ok
<HrdwrBoB> urandum
<HrdwrBoB> urandom
<HrdwrBoB> unless you have a tapping bird
<HrdwrBoB> .. and a long time to wait
<Burglaptop> now I just need to find a tool to test cdroms
<Burglaptop> hey jsgotangco
<jsgotangco> hey!
* jsgotangco isnt feeling well and just staying at home
<crimsun> hope you feel better, jsgotangco 
<jsgotangco> thanks
<mhz> jsgotangco: what's up doc? stomachache?
<jsgotangco> mhz, i dunno..i just feel heavy and bloated today...
<jsgotangco> hope its not PMS
<jsgotangco> :D
<mhz> as long as it is not RMS :D
<LaserJock> lol, I hate that ;-)
<mhz> hehe
* mhz confesses he has no complaints against RMS, just in case.
<Kyral> RMS is good
<Kyral> I just don't wanna wind up like him
<mhz> lol
<mhz> you don't like his hair "cut", Kyral ?
<mhz> oh, I bet is his "saint" custom!
<mhz> jsgotangco: well, I'll try not to have many questions for you today
<mhz> jsgotangco: just to cheer ya up http://mhz.homelinux.org/elwiki/MauricioHernandez/FunPictures/CustomerService
<Madpilot> hi all
<Burglaptop> salut Madpilot
<Madpilot> hi Burglaptop - have a good weekend?
<Burglaptop> indeed
<Madpilot> Burglaptop: any news on the ReLectronics stuff?
<Burglaptop> Madpilot: going to be doing some more chatting this week with other Freegeeks and then with ReStore here in town
<Burglaptop> I enjoying being able to make endless longdistance calls from work without cost
<Madpilot> cool - you should blog something to planet.u.c about it
<Burglaptop> I will, once I have something more solid
<jsgotangco> voip?
<Burglaptop> jsgotangco: no, just big longdistance charges I never see
<jsgotangco> work benefits
<jsgotangco> i see
<Burglaptop> and long calls for personal stuff get merged into the other long calls to libraries
<Burglaptop> plus a personal 1-800 number (should I ask for a 1900 number next?)
<Burglaptop> ;)
<jsgotangco> 1-800-COREY
<Burglaptop> too short
<Burglaptop> 1-900-HOTCORY
<Madpilot> ick ick ick
<Madpilot> :P
<Burglaptop> lol
<robitaille> I guess I could do long-distance calls as well from my work phone... let people taxes pay for them :)
<Burglaptop> "your tax dollars at work"
<robitaille> in practice, I'm too nice to do that obvious abuse of tax dollars.  
<Burglaptop> I feel less qualms about spending a few cents of my companies money
<Burglaptop> they don't pay me enough to be that anal
<jsgotangco> :P
<jsgotangco> don't bite that much of the hand that feeds you
<jsgotangco> just nibble a bit
<Burglaptop> I won't, not that foolish (usually)
<robitaille> that's my "problem": we get so much "ethics in government" stuff, you cann't do something like that without feeling guilty. So I don't, and everyone is happy.
<Burglaptop> yes, gov't is very different that a private company.
<robitaille> starting with that oath of allegeance to the Crown :)
<Burglaptop> and the flogging
<Burglaptop> did I mention the rum and the sodomy (or is that the navy?)
<robitaille> they try to force Windows and Office on us.  Is that enough of a punishment?
<Madpilot> that counts, I suspect :P
<Burglaptop> so they flog you to take the sodomy of having to use windows and then they offer you rum to make the pain go away?
<Burglaptop> anybody got their dapper machine handy?
<robitaille> Burglaptop,  yes
<Madpilot> robitaille: have you tried that new Dapper installer?
<Burglaptop> hmm, never mind
<jsgotangco> robitaille, hmmm...have you noticed the MB article that you posted
<jsgotangco> the ads have gnome footprints
<jsgotangco> heh
<Burglaptop> jsgotangco: MB article?
<robitaille> Madpilot,  not yet.  I plan to, but I have been busy recently.  I did a normal install of Flight 4 just to say that I have done it on my laptop.
<jsgotangco> http://www.mb.com.ph/INFO2006022056737.html
<jsgotangco> Madpilot, you mean express?
<Madpilot> Espresso, or whatever it's called - I was just reading the Flight4 wiki page earlier today - looks very cool
<Burglaptop> jsgotangco: espresso, please
<robitaille> jsgotangco,  I don't see the ads.  Obviously my ad blocking method in firefox works :)
<jsgotangco> lol
<Burglaptop> Madpilot: when do I sign you up for the data-destroying install?'
<Madpilot> Burglaptop: not this week, thanks :P
<Burglaptop> really? ahh...
<robitaille> http://www.mozilla.org/support/firefox/tips#lay_adblocking    I highly recommend that simple method to block 99% of the ads out there
<Madpilot> The new Opera 9beta has a very, very slick adblocker built in - finally
<Burglaptop> epip has a basic one for 1.9
<jsgotangco> i'll get opera for my DS soon
<Burglaptop> the gcompris guys are looking at porting to the DS
<Madpilot> jsgotangco: the Nintendo thing? I saw the blurb on the Opera website about that
<jsgotangco> yeah
<Madpilot> I've got a hacked adblocker in Opera 8, it works well but it'll be nice to have it built into the browser finally
<Burglaptop> at the rate work is going, the gcompris guys might have it running on the DS before my work will have it running on Fedora
<Madpilot> what is gcompris?
* Madpilot would rather ask than google... ;P
<Burglaptop> kids edutainment
<jsgotangco> its a colorful kiddie app
<robitaille> My kids love some of the apps in gcompris.
<jsgotangco> the art of gcompris needs polish though
<robitaille> it's french for "I understand" by the way
<robitaille> (phonetically)
<Burglaptop> jsgotangco: would be nice if someone could step up and fund that
<Burglaptop> find a community member with some art skills and develop an entire theme for it
<jsgotangco> the api is said to be easy but i haven't really had time to learn it
<Burglaptop> the gcompris guys and I were thinking about dedicated gcompris machines
<jsgotangco> why not have it run on OLPC?
<Burglaptop> I was thinking for the old P1s and p2s
<Burglaptop> that would be cool
<Madpilot> locked down "arcade" machines just running gcompris + some minimal Linux install?
<Burglaptop> we were also thinking of creating and marketing a gcompris-appliance, but I have no idea what kind of market there would be
<Burglaptop> robitaille: do you think the above might work?
<jsgotangco> tux racer had an arcade machine product
<Burglaptop> oh joy, isn't synaptics UI a fun one to talk about
<robitaille> the market for gcompris are probably school labs, no?  And family machines.  In both case, you want to have other apps running than gcompris for flexibility.
<Burglaptop> I was thinking some sort of single function gcompris device. Shiny and colourful, etc.
<robitaille> gcompris is not that great that you want kids using only gcompris :)  they will get bored
<Burglaptop> gcompris would need some major activity development before that would happen
<Burglaptop> anyway, I was just blueskying. Like I need more time intensive projects right now
<jsgotangco> the apps are already solid but the art is hmmm
<Burglaptop> we choose a bad day to announce flight 4
<jsgotangco> ?
<Madpilot> Sunday is a bad day?
<Burglaptop> yes, as no news places carry it
<Burglaptop> Friday is much better time
<mdke> sunday is quickly followed by monday though
<Burglaptop> you really want to catch people on the weekend, when they have time to test it
<Burglaptop> morning mdke
<mdke> morning
<Burglaptop> mdke: where are we at with the flash stuff? 
<jsgotangco> its always been a weekend annoucement lately...
<manicka> Madpilot, thanks for the feedabck on userdocbeta :)
<Burglaptop> we did get the main page of digg...
<Madpilot> manicka: np
<Burglaptop> actually, DapperFlight4 did
<robitaille> in my mind Flights shouldn't get wide announcements, only RCs and pre-releases.  You don't want to many people going into what is still a somedays broken version of Ubuntu
<Burglaptop> robitaille: depends on the audience. Flight announcements only go to -devel-announce and thus only get the geek press, which we want
<jsgotangco> the forums are partly attributed to guerilla-style marketing
<jsgotangco> either its good or not is subjective
<Burglaptop> mdke: you raised the issue of mounted volumes not showing up on the desktop. Was that a bug or a policy decision?
<mdke> Burglaptop, i still don't know. There are several bugs open about it
<mdke> Burglaptop, flash: I haven't heard anything since my last email last week, i think we've done our part now
<Burglaptop> mdke: ok
<robitaille> Burglaptop,  since no developpers seem to have got involved in that discusion on the list, I think it is a policy from someone at the top :)
<robitaille> personally I prefer the new approach 
<Burglaptop> the problem becomes that of unmounting them
<Burglaptop> it encourages people to just yank USB sticks out
<robitaille> disk-mounter applet  is available to put in the panel.  That's what I do 
<robitaille> I never see icon on the desktop since I always maximize my windows anyway
<Burglaptop> yes, but it is not installed by deafult and those I don't consider it a solution
<mdke> i agree
<mdke> robitaille, the bugs seem to show that at least seb wasn't aware of the decision
<robitaille> then that applet should  be a default
<robitaille> mdke,  malone number?
<jsgotangco> gahhhh 47 spam in -doc just today
<Burglaptop> hmm, I noticed I am now seeing gmail spam
<Burglaptop> someone must have automated the invite procedure
<mdke> robitaille, i don't have it on me
<mdke> oh, 28991
<robitaille> mdke,  I'll look for them.  I was not aware there were bugs opened on this
<robitaille> thanks
<Madpilot> Burglaptop: spammed invites to gmail, or spam from gmail addresses?
<mdke> 31331
<Burglaptop> Madpilot: spam for gmail
<Burglaptop> addys
<bhuvan> mdke: ping
<jsgotangco> mdke, hmmm the server isn't building..or is it a one time cron job?
<Burglaptop> oh, we just hit lxer
<Burglaptop> http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Category%3AAirports_in_Palestine&diff=25351526&oldid=24877552
<Burglaptop> what do people think of that edit (random question)
<mpt__> The "Note:" and the italics are probably unnecessary, other than that it's fine
<mpt__> (I realize neither of those things are yours)
<Burglaptop> do you think the changed words are less provocative?
<mpt__> no
<Madpilot> both versions are provocative - but the whole damn area is provocative, so what can you do?
<Burglaptop> ya
<Burglaptop> the original words are mine, although the software doesn't see as that (due to a copy paste bug)
<jsgotangco> airports in palestine
<Burglaptop> one of my old projects
<mdke> bhuvan, pong
<mdke> jsgotangco, once a day
<bhuvan> mdke, i have send the email!
<jsgotangco> mdke, can it be triggered manually?
<mdke> bhuvan, got it and replied :)
<mdke> jsgotangco, yes
<bhuvan> mdke, cool!
<mdke> jsgotangco, which do you want, edubuntu?
<jsgotangco> yes
<mdke> ok
<mdke> done
<Burglaptop> night all
<glatzor> jsgotangco: hi, you are working on the manual of g-a-i?
<glatzor> should we include the help in the g-a-i sources or do you want to distribute it in a global ubuntu-doc package?
<jsgotangco> well we talked about it earlier, we'd prefer to have it inthe source package instead of the ubuntu-doc package
<glatzor> jsgotangco: fine. do you want to maintain the help in your svn repo?
<jsgotangco> glatzor, just for a few more weeks its almost done anyway
<jsgotangco> then after that i don't mind getting it from elsewhere
<glatzor> jsgotangco: this is no problem. i could ceck out your repository and include the manual into the g-a-i sources.
<glatzor> the svn server is up again?
<glatzor> jsgotangco: could you please give my the URL. i lost it.
<jsgotangco> https://docteam.ubuntu.com/repos/trunk/ubuntu/upstream/gnome/gnome-app-install/
<glatzor> jsgotangco: do you know if anybody is working on an updated help for update-manager?
<jsgotangco> glatzor, none that i know, the original author bailed out recently, do you want me to review it?
<glatzor> jsgotangco: this would be very nice.
<glatzor> Have you already seen the dist-upgrade tool?
<jsgotangco> nope not i haven't been up to speed with mvo's development lately
<jsgotangco> i've seen the synaptic changes though
<glatzor> i haven't tracked synaptic in the last time.
<mvo> jsgotangco: glatzor is a big driving force here :)
<jsgotangco> oohhh
<glatzor> jsgotangco: do you want to move the figures to the language subfolder C?
* glatzor gets a red head
* glatzor is mvo's protg. :)
<jsgotangco> glatzor, hmmm...i'll move it
<jsgotangco> i didn't notice it
* jsgotangco moves
<glatzor> jsgotangco: by the way conglomerate hasn't yet reached a usable state, or? I wrote the synatpci manual using emacs and it was a pain.
<jsgotangco> i've been using bluefish and emacs too
<jsgotangco> conglomerate is a pain for now
<jsgotangco> hold on im booting to dapper and make the changes
<jsgotangco> glatzor, ok i should be able to update both manuals tonight
<jsgotangco> u-m just needs some minor edits
<glatzor> jsgotangco: slow down. you don't need to hurry.
<glatzor> it would be nice if you could make some comments if you find some nuisances or inconsistencies in the ui.
<jsgotangco> yep i have to update this machine for staters :D
<mdke> you'd better check that updates to the documentation are permitted by the string freeze conditions
<mdke> it seems to me that the doc group doesn't apply the string freeze to them, but it's rather odd
<mdke> because translation is still relevant
<jsgotangco> you mean upstream?
<jsgotangco> oh
<mdke> yes, the gnome string freeze has passed already
* mdke emails to find out
<jsgotangco> the apps arent part of gnome yet i think
<glatzor> jsgotangco: http://paste.ubuntu-nl.org/8948
<glatzor> jsgotangco: you are fine with this omf file?
<jsgotangco> are we sticking with that name? "Gnome-App-Install"
<jsgotangco> mvo, are we sticking with that name "Gnome-App-Install"?
<glatzor> jsgotangco: You want a less technical term?
<glatzor> "Application Manager", "Application Installer"?
<jsgotangco> glatzor, not really, the application itself doesn't say G-A-I
<glatzor> jsgotangco: hm? I don't get this.
<glatzor> Using the menu item name?
<jsgotangco> in ubuntu, its just Applications->Add/Remove
<jsgotangco> and the title bar of the app only says Add/Remove Applications
<glatzor> ok. let us use "Add/Remove Appliations". you are ok with this?
<glatzor> the term "applications" was skipped from the menu since the name  would have been too long and the term app would have been duplicated in the top menu name
<jsgotangco> glatzor, i don't mind what its called, but i'm partial to make it have an intuitive name like Gnome Application Manager or the ones you mentioned...
<glatzor> jsgotangco: the term "Gnome" could be skipped. It is of no or minor value to the user.
<jsgotangco> yeah
<glatzor> jsgotangco: so should we take the menu item name or the other one?
<glatzor> mvo: do you want to join the discussion?
<glatzor> jsgotangco: mvo: the build system is now in place. 
<mvo> glatzor: what bit excactly?
<glatzor> What name we should use for g-a-i in the documentation. gnome-app-install is "ugly" and too technical.
<glatzor> furthermore the app itself uses "add/remove applications" and not g-a-i
<mvo> is "Add/remove applications" a good name?
<glatzor> so should we use "Application Manager" or "Add/Remove Applications"
<mvo> I personally like "application installer"
<glatzor> mvo: ok. then we take this one.
<mvo> but that is maybe too technical?
<glatzor> mvo: oh, i refered to the "Add/remove" in my last post
<glatzor> The problem is that g-a-i also removes apps.
<glatzor> i don't like the idea of using an installer to unsinstall something
<jsgotangco> oh the repository list was removed i didnt notice that
<mvo> ok
<mvo> that makes sense
<glatzor> we could place the manual in the root of the applications direcotry in the yelp tree
<glatzor> jsgotangco: mvo: furthermore "install or remove applications" would be better than the char "/"
<glatzor> jsgotangco: mvo: you are fine with this?
<jsgotangco> it does make sense though
<glatzor> i am away for some minutes
<jsgotangco> ok i'll make some minor edits to the doc the ping you
<mvo> yes,that sounds good
<jsgotangco> mvo, i'm confused here...what do we call it exactly?
<glatzor> jsgotangco: "Add or remove applications"
<glatzor> jsgotangco: "Install or remove applications"
<glatzor> the later one
<glatzor> jsgotangco: or replace "or" by "and"
<glatzor> "Install and remove applications"
<glatzor> this is the final one
<jsgotangco> ok that looks better
* mvo nods
<glatzor> mvo: gdebi will go into main? if yes we could add a note to the g-a-i manual to install package files by double-clicking
<mvo> I think it will, I have a ok from matt
<glatzor> it will also be part of ubuntu-desktop?
<glatzor> jsgotangco: if the section or repository of an app is not in the sources.list a button appears in the description that allows to add the repository
<glatzor> jsgotangco: there is a also bug in the clearlooks theme. that is why you don't see if an app is installable or not.
<glatzor> if you cannot install an app the checkbutton is insenstive. but clearlooks doesn't handle this case and draws an unchecked button
<glatzor> jsgotangco: i hope that this will be fixed soon.
<glatzor> jsgotangco: if you use another theme like e.g. raleigh you see the right behavior of the checkbutton
<jsgotangco> hmm i see it
<glatzor> jsgotangco: gnome-app-install does not need to run as root at startup time anymore. so no neeed for "sudo gnome-app-install"
<jsgotangco> yes i'm editing it now
<jsgotangco> it only asks when its about to intsall an app
<mvo> jsgotangco:  or when it wants to add a channel/component
<jsgotangco> wow pngcrush is good
<jjesse> robotgeek_away: make sure you check out the new adept installer ofr the desktop guide, i will be adding it as part of the release notes
<jsgotangco> jjesse, hey!
<jjesse> hey jsgotangco
<jsgotangco> jjesse, have you used pngcrush?
<jjesse> jsgotangco nope
<jsgotangco> jjesse, download it then use it after taking a screenshot :D
<jsgotangco> it
<jsgotangco> it'll reduce the size of the image
<jjesse> cool
<jjesse> have you tried the new adept yet ?
<jsgotangco> nope...not yet..i'm finishing the g-a-i manual
<jjesse> ah
<jjesse> updating system right now
<Burgwork> http://www.itwire.com.au/content/view/3375/106/ <-- we just got slammed
<LaserJock> Burgwork: OMG, I can
<LaserJock> can't believe that guy didn't know he needed to bur .iso's
<Burgwork> LaserJock, a common error and an honest mistake
<LaserJock> why? all installation cd's are .iso's
<LaserJock> hmm, I guess I just assumed the guy had at least installed Linux once before
<dsas> maybe he doesn't burn iso's too often......I remember burning the iso file onto the cd, rather than burning an iso image to cd.
<dsas> s/burn isos/download iso
<LaserJock> hmm, maybe I've just been at this game to long. I don't think I ever did that
<dsas> heh, I did, after I'd installed linux a half dozen times, and considered myself a "power user" for a long time...
<dsas> dragging and dropping an iso file in Nero doesn't/didn't do what you expect...at least I think it was nero.
<LaserJock> hmm, so maybe the download page should have a little note saying that you need to a program capabable of burning .iso files?
<dsas> or a link to the installation help wiki page.
<Burgwork> LaserJock, I will edit the master page later so that it links to that wiki page
<LaserJock> I think they should have a note on the download pages itself IMHO
<LaserJock> but then I've never really liked the Ubuntu website very much. So maybe it's just me 
<dsas> well hopefully it'll be fixed soon, there's a wikipage on it somewhere.
<Burgwork> the ubuntu website is a mess, but I currently don;t have the time to fix it
<LaserJock> Burgwork: how many people work on the Ubuntu website?
<Burgwork> LaserJock, currently just hendrik, but Mako and I have edit privs
<LaserJock> I see
<Burgwork> if you want to work on a specific page, I can copy it to the wiki and then you can edit it and I can copy it back
<LaserJock> I don't think I have time right now, but I'll keep it in mind for the future
<Burgwork> ok
<LaserJock> I've been looking at some of the -sounder emails
<Burgwork> LaserJock, edited the main page, should be up with an hour or so
<LaserJock> cool
<mdke> you can ping me for edits too
<Burgwork> salut mdke 
<mdke> hiya
<Burgwork> funny how Ubuntu/Fedora/Suse have synced up so they all release alphas within 3 days of each other
<mdke> who knows why we still have the gnome-user-guide in our repo
<mdke> ?
<mdke> js
* mdke fails tab completion
<Burgwork> kill it
<Burgwork> it is old and we agreed to nuke upstream stuff a while back
<mdke> ok that sounds right
* mdke nukes
<jjesse> test message
<mdke> jjesse, successful
<jjesse> thanks
<Burgwork> mdke, ouch --> http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/WikiLicenseTalk
<mdke> Burgwork, looks a bit anal to me
<Burgwork> mdke, change licenses is a mess and needs to be anal
* robotgeek is finally done with the moving, yay
#ubuntu-doc 2006-02-26
* robotgeek goes to tidy up wiki page for meeting tommorow 
<robotgeek> Burgwork: ping
<Burgwork> robotgeek, pong
<robotgeek> Burgwork: would you be willing to cheer for me in the meeting tommorow?
* robotgeek is applying for membership, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/VenkatRaghavan
<Burgwork> robotgeek, what time is it?
<robotgeek> 20.00 utc, 21'st 
<Burgwork> robotgeek, yes I can, as that is noon here
<robotgeek> Burgwork: cool, thanks! 
<Burgwork> robotgeek, can you ping me when the meeting starts?
<robotgeek> Burgwork: sure, will do :)
<LaserJock> hi Madpilot 
<Madpilot> hi LaserJock
<robotgeek> Madpilot: ping
<Madpilot> robotgeek: hi
<robotgeek> Madpilot: just reminding, CC meeting tommorow :)
<Madpilot> yeah 2000Z - I'm in a RL meeting at exactly the same time :(
<robotgeek> RL?
<Madpilot> real life
<robotgeek> ah..
<robotgeek> no problems :)
<robotgeek> Burg work is cheering
<Madpilot> yeah, I wanted to be there - my name is up for op on #ubuntu, for my sins
<Madpilot> :P
<robotgeek> so is Seveas, nalioth
<robotgeek> and anyone else from #ubuntu-doc :)
<Madpilot> good luck with membership, anyway - I'll be talking w/ seveas later, and I'll put a word in for you - I'm sure mdke already has
<robotgeek> thanks Madpilot 
<LaserJock> robotgeek: hmm, I think I might have a meeting 2000-2100 but it might be short. I'll try to drop in on the CC meeting if I can
<robotgeek> thanks LaserJock 
<robotgeek> LaserJock: i'll probably ping you when the time comes :)
<LaserJock> robotgeek: what is the URL for your wiki page?
<robotgeek> LaserJock: http://wiki.ubuntu.com/VenkatRaghavan
<bhuvan> robotgeek: best wishes!
<robotgeek> thanks bhuvan 
<bhuvan> robotgeek: i prefer to include links to your patches in your wiki page
<robotgeek> bhuvan: nice idea!
<bhuvan> robotgeek: thus, the approver may be more comfortable
<bhuvan> you may get the links from ubuntudoc-commits mailing lists
<robotgeek> yes, i am subscribed :)
* robotgeek hunts
<EricNeon> hi
<LaserJock> hi EricNeon 
<Madpilot> hi EricNeon
<EricNeon> :)
<EricNeon> I am writing a mail to Mark to introduce the Ubuntu-cn team
<Madpilot> cn?
<EricNeon> we will speed up for dapper release
<EricNeon> CN, Ubuntu China
<EricNeon> last week ,we have a meeting with mark and yaste and hande 
<Madpilot> cool - Mark was just in China, I think
<EricNeon> we talk about community construction and dapper release party
<EricNeon> they ask me mail a plan to him
<robotgeek> bhuvan: more work for me :)
<robotgeek> bhuvan: thanks, done
<bhuvan> robotgeek: ok
<bhuvan> robotgeek: https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-doc-commits/2006-February/001913.html
<robotgeek> bhuvan: hmm, my email client missed that :)
<robotgeek> thanks :)
* bhuvan is upgrading to dapper
<LaserJock_away> lol, I'm already thinking about dapper+1
<Madpilot> bhuvan: braver than I am :P
<robotgeek> heh, i am on dapper and lovin it
<LaserJock_away> I've been on dapper since about Oct.
<bhuvan> robotgeek, great!
<robotgeek> bhuvan: my airport extreme works, i just moved my kmail to dapper too.
* robotgeek is reminded of another wiki page he contributed to, lol
<LaserJock_away> so how do you guys write for dapper? Do you have dapper installed on a spare box or something?
<robotgeek> LaserJock_away: yeah, i just use dapper
<Madpilot> LaserJock_away: most of the apps I've written stuff for aren't changing much for Dapper, from what I've heard
<robotgeek> lots of ppl use qemu/whatever
<Madpilot> Is there a Flight4 LiveCD?
<LaserJock_away> yeah
<LaserJock_away> it should have espresso on it so you can install from the liveCD
* Madpilot starts torrent of the Flight4 LiveCD
<LaserJock_away> hmm, I might try it out too. I haven't used any of the Flight .isos
<jsgotangco> my hibernate is borked
<robotgeek> jsgotangco: uggh
<jsgotangco> yes
* robotgeek is confused with hibernate vs sleep
<jsgotangco> the joys of laptop testing
<jsgotangco> robotgeek, sleep resides in memory
<jsgotangco> hibernate goes to disk
<robotgeek> ah, i don't think i've ever hibernated
<robotgeek> macs don't hibernate, lol
<LaserJock_away> I haven't been bold enough to try Ubuntu on my laptop. Dapper on a desktop no problem, but laptops just scare me ;-)
<LaserJock_away> robotgeek: they don't, my iMac does I think
<robotgeek> LaserJock_away: my power button doesn't work, closing the lid sleeps well, however
<mdke_> morning
<Madpilot> mdke_: you going to make the CC meeting?
<mdke_> maybe, maybe not
<Madpilot> robotgeek is going for membership, is all
<mdke_> yeah, saw it in the scrollback
<jsgotangco> hmmm CC would be 4am on my side :/
<mdke_> his membership is so obviously a cinch that our presence is unnecessary, but I will leave a message if I can't get there
<mdke_> Madpilot, couple of TODOs on the desktopguide I thought of recently
<mdke_> i added a blank section for how to use the menu editor
<mdke_> that way we can point to that, instead of having those ugly sections about adding a desktop file in /usr/share/applications
<mdke_> those are truly awful
<Madpilot> true - I'm torrenting the Flight4 LiveCD right now, so I'll play with it tomorrow and write some of that
<mdke_> rocking
<mdke_> the other thing was maybe we could include something on apt-get in the add-applications section
<Madpilot> does the server-guide cover apt-get? Could we link to their docs?
<mdke_> not easily i don't think
<mdke_> the problem is that the guide will be both on the system and on the internet, the links might break
<mdke_> we could use their code though
<mdke_> if its friendly enough
<Madpilot> stuff written for server admins might be a bit much for newbies to the CLI...
<Madpilot> I'll apply the same test to it I did to vim: If I understand it, I'll write about it. If I don't, forget it. :P
<mdke_> :)
<mdke_> -> work
<Kamping_At_Hut> is there anything on printer sharing in ubuntu breezy in the help? the wiki and help.ubuntu dont seem to have anything
<Madpilot> Kamping_At_Hut: there are wiki articles on XP->Ubuntu and Ubuntu->XP printer sharing
<Kamping_At_Hut> Madpilot: im after ubuntu -> debian sharing, same deal?
<Madpilot> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/NetworkPrintingFromWinXP
<Madpilot> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/WindowsXPPrinter
<Madpilot> no idea, but that should be easier than win->Linux
<Kamping_At_Hut> i dont think it is ;) because of the cups mangling in ubuntu
<Madpilot> hmm, a quick wiki search only turns up specs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/PrinterSharing
<Madpilot> not a good sign
<Kamping_At_Hut> mm. sounds like your finding the same stuff as me :/
<Kamping_At_Hut> nothing on break-my-ubuntu either (aka ubuntuguide)
<Madpilot> heh
<Kamping_At_Hut> im sure there was a few lines of the config file you change and you could do sharing :/ *cant rememeber where he saw it * 
* Kamping_At_Hut goes to talk to big brother (aka google)
<Madpilot> check the other "we're too cool for the official wiki" wiki: http://doc.gwos.org/index.php/BreezyCust
<Kamping_At_Hut> <grin> ok good idea
<Madpilot> actually, some of the stuff there is pretty good - the Breezy eyecandy section, for example
<Kamping_At_Hut> it may be good stuff, its just a pity it cant be with other good stuff :
<Kamping_At_Hut> :| (damn keyboard with | in the wrong spot)
<Madpilot> doesn't seem to be anything at gwos, either
<Kamping_At_Hut> im going to try this http://occy.net/printing
<mdke_> some printing help would be useful
<Madpilot> mdke_: can you start an email of "things it would be cool to get into the docs before Dapper string freeze"?
<Kamping_At_Hut> <grin> how long is it utnill freeze? a month?
<Kamping_At_Hut> *untill
<Madpilot> about that
<mdke_> Madpilot, alright
<Kamping_At_Hut> i can probably put my hand up for something, just depends on time restraints
<Madpilot> Kamping_At_Hut: that printing url - "occy" rings faint bells - someone who shows up on #ubuntu or #ubuntu-offtopic sometimes, I think
<Kamping_At_Hut> woot. it works
<Kamping_At_Hut> *hugs cups, even ubuntus version*
<Kamping_At_Hut> Madpilot: hm. ill check my logs then and see if it comes up
<Kamping_At_Hut> Madpilot: yeh, he/she/it seems to show up a bit (lots of log entries)
<Kamping_At_Hut> brb. finding network calbe :/
<mpt> UBUNTU DOCUMENT STORAGE FACILITY
<mpt> INTRUDERS WILL BE PROSECUTED
<jsgotangco> lol
<jsgotangco> seriously...
<mpt> There's way too much meta-ness in Ubuntu documentation generally
<mpt> Like, using the word "documentation"
<mpt> and the word "wiki"
<mpt> and the word "user"
<mpt> and "document" and "storage" and "facility"
<Kamping_At_Hut> meta?
<Madpilot> meta-ness?
<mpt> meta-ness, i.e. writing about the writing rather than writing about the topic
<Madpilot> ah, OK
<Kamping_At_Hut> *blank look*
<Madpilot> see also our ongoing efforts to get our wiki's UserDocumentation page into some sort of usable shape :P
<mpt> Kamping_At_Hut, a simple example, there's a wiki page called "UserDocumentation"
<mpt> not "HelpUsingUbuntu" or "UbuntuSupport" or something like that, but "UserDocumentation"
<Kamping_At_Hut> mm. think i get it
<Madpilot> as opposed to too much of the rest of the wiki, which is DeveloperDocumentation or ProjectDocumentation or some such...
<mpt> Madpilot, yeah, separate wikis will help there
<mpt> but it could still have been called "HelpUsingUbuntu" from the beginning
<jsgotangco> we are all experts in the end
<Madpilot> we can change the name when we migrate to the new server - there'll be lots of redirects going in anyway
<mpt> well, on a separate help site, it can be called "/" :-)
<Madpilot> yeah, that too :P
<Madpilot> giving the main page a name does make it easier to link back to, though
<Madpilot> Wikipedia uses Main_Page
<mpt> to its eternal shame
<mpt> hmm, I suppose that's a feature request for Moin
<Madpilot> it's more descriptive than "Index", I guess
<mpt> That the biggest text on <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Main_Page> is "Main Page" is stupid
<mpt> It should be "Wikipedia"
<Madpilot> bug in MediaWiki, I guess
<mpt> Same goes for https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ and "FrontPage" -- it's not a wiki about using Microsoft Web authoring tools!
<Madpilot> bug in all wiki apps, then :P
<mpt> http://moinmoin.wikiwikiweb.de/ has it right
<mpt> ah, they don't repeat the title as a heading on any page
<Madpilot> nice - so it *is* possible to seperate page name from title
<Madpilot> actually, they do, kind of, but it's up in the grey header so it's less obvious
<mgalvin> anyone here have privs to make a wiki page immutable?
<mdke_> mgalvin, no one does at all, here or not
<mgalvin> mdke_: ah ok, thanks
<mgalvin> just wondering b/c people keep ranting and/or making large modifications to DapperFlight4, i was looking for a way to prevent people from ranting on that page and such
<mgalvin> not a big deal
<jsgotangco> hmm
<jsgotangco> how ugly does the <procedure> block render in yelp?
<mdke_> mgalvin, publish it on a web site rather than a wiki?
<mdke_> jsgotangco, it's fine, similar to orderedlist
<jsgotangco> okay
* jsgotangco doing some finishing touches to gai before it gets evicted to svn
<jsgotangco> s/to/from
<mgalvin> mdke_: that is a possibility
<jsgotangco> heh that didn't look bad at all thanks
<robotgeek> jjesse: i just took a look at the adept guide, wasn't there something regarding the use of sudo for gui apps?
<robotgeek> kdesu vs sudo, i.e.
<jjesse> robotgeek: the adept guide unfortnatly hasn't been touched since breezy
<jjesse> so i don'tk now how accurate it is
<robotgeek> jjesse: hmm, okay.
<jsgotangco> mgalvin: ping
<FreakinNuts> robotgeek: There's something on the RootSudo wiki regarding sudo on graphical apps.  
<robotgeek> FreakinNuts: i'll take a look for the details, i think it might be wrong to use sudo for graphical apps
<FreakinNuts> robotgeek: That's correct....you want to use something like gksudo or use the "Run Application As" feature that is implemented in Ubuntu.
<FreakinNuts> kdesu in kubuntu.
* robotgeek will submit a patch for the Adept Guide :)
<robotgeek> hmm, it's a one liner. 
<robotgeek> jjesse: will you correct it, or you want me to mail it to the list?
<robotgeek> Burgwork: ping
<LaserJock> hi robotgeek, are you ready?
<robotgeek> yeah, LaserJock :)
<robotgeek> LaserJock: meeting has not yet started, though
<LaserJock> robotgeek: how long have you been contributing to Ubuntu? that is one of the main questions they will ask
<robotgeek> since 2005-09-08.
<LaserJock> robotgeek: good
<robotgeek> :)
<Burgwork> robotgeek, pong
<robotgeek> Burgwork: CC in 8 minutes :)
<LaserJock> hmm, is mdke going to be there?
<Burgwork> robotgeek, already there
<robotgeek> Burgwork: cool thanks!
<robotgeek> mdke_: ping
<ompaul> wrt the wiku  can the text and title search be merged that was what provoked my email? 
<Burgwork> ompaul, would be nice
<ompaul> it is not obvious and I have 10 years + on web browsing
<mdke_> robotgeek, pong
<robotgeek> mdke_: #ubuntu-meeting, betterwikispecs
<robotgeek> or docs, rahter
<mdke> what are they talking about?
<robotgeek> mdke: they kinda went tangent after the server issue
<Madpilot> in -meeting? no idea, I just got in
<mdke> oh
<Madpilot> Burgwork raised his favourite piece of flamebait, "We should use MediaWiki instead of MoinMoin" :P
<robotgeek> heh
<Burgwork> no, I am raising why I think mediawiki is technically better suited to our tak
<mdke> Burgwork, that's very helpful
* Burgwork sends his laundry list of things we wants from a wiki to the list
<Burgwork> mdke, are you being sarcastic?
<mdke> not now, but i was yeah
<Burgwork> mdke Burgwork, that's very helpful <-- that line
<mdke> yes
<Burgwork> figured, but wasn't certain
<manicka> congrats robotgeek :)
<mdke> i'm bummed I wasn't around to defend my spec :/
* Kyral pounces on robotgeek
<Kyral> 'bout time you bastard ;P
<mdke> night all
<Madpilot> later, mdke
<LaserJoc1> I'm just reading the CC backlog, so the general idea was that the current wiki is fine and we don't need a docteam wiki?
<Burgwork> yes, that was the CCs idea
<Madpilot> sounds like it :(
<Madpilot> I missed the first part of the meeting, though
<Burgwork> we simply need to sell the idea better
<LaserJoc1> hmmm, I thought we should move it from wiki to something else for that reason. It's sorta like "why do you need another wiki?"
<Burgwork> they don't understand the value yet
<LaserJock> Burgwork: would showing the stages a doc would go through help?
* robotgeek gets back to work on KDG
<Burgwork> LaserJock, sorry, don't understand
<LaserJock> Burgwork: say something like, w.u.c --> gets cleaned up --> everybody likes --> new wiki ? Like what would the process be to get a new doc into the new wiki.
<Burgwork> ah
<Burgwork> the current idea is to migrate all docs, regardless of of state
<LaserJock> really? I thought it was just going to be a few
* mdke comes back from his seething session
<mdke> LaserJock, no, all docs
<LaserJock> do we want all docs?
<Burgwork> yes
<LaserJock> like even MOTU/* ?
<Burgwork> no, those are not docs
<Burgwork> anything in CategoryDocumentation
* mdke nods
<LaserJock> ahh, ok. that helps
<LaserJock> ok, and then how is that different than the docteam repo work? (playing devil's advocate a little here)
<mdke> because only a few people can access that
<Madpilot> LaserJock: the wiki is far larger than any of our repo docs, and way more open
<mdke> everyone would be able to edit the wiki
<LaserJock> so then how is it different that the current wiki?
<mdke> did you see the spec?
<LaserJock> yes, but not recently.
<Madpilot> we wouldn't have the specs, MOTU stuff, etc messing up the searches for actual docs
<mdke> it would be different in two ways
<mdke> 1, what Madpilot said, and 2, all the documentation would be in one place
<LaserJock> BetterWikiDocs, right?
<mdke> yes
<LaserJock> but why wouldn't you just use namespace to do that?
<LaserJock> or is that not practical
<Madpilot> can MoinMoin do namespacing the same way MediaWiki can?
<mdke> that doesn't help the search thing, and i am totally sold on having a single site which just does help
<LaserJock> I'm just saying, why wouldn't you put all the docs under Documentation/ or something like that? that seems to seperate.
<Burgwork> LaserJock, doesn't solve the searching issue
<LaserJock> mdke: I think it is a great idea to have a single site for help.
<Madpilot> got to run - work :P
<Madpilot> see you all later
<LaserJock> hmmm, but you can't just search within Documentation/* or CategoryDocumentation ?
<mdke> what if you want to search somewhere else?
<mdke> like for a spec
<Burgwork> the problem of how do you guess what an anonymous user wants
<Burgwork> the logged in users are pretty easy
<LaserJock> I'd think we would be able to have some sore of drop-down menu of major catagories but I don't really know wiki stuff very well
<mdke> you can't limit searches like that, unless you have a search box for each potential subject of the wiki
<LaserJock> it seems like something like how forums are set up would do what you want as far as separation?
* mdke wants a single site, with nothing but documentation
<Burgwork> don't see how the forums apply?
<mdke> there is simply no point making the effort of trying to push lots of things into one box
<LaserJock> Burgwork: like how there are subforums and you can search within subforums, that's all
<mdke> especially since they bear no relation to each other
<Burgwork> yes, but that is totally suboptimal
<Burgwork> all forums are crap for actually getting useful information, to be honest
<Burgwork> great for random chitchat
<mdke> they are good for questions and answers
<mdke> and bad as a reference tool
<LaserJock> I'm not talking about making it a forum, but just have forum-like search features
* mdke repeats his box point
<LaserJock> I agree
<mdke> what's the value in having them on the wiki?
<LaserJock> what?
<mdke> docs
<mdke> if there is some value, I'm prepared to weigh it against the value of having them on their own site
<mdke> which is considerable :)
<mdke> right now, I don't see any value in it
<mdke> erm
<Burgwork> there is very little intercommunication between doc wiki pages and non-doc wiki pages
* mdke rereads what he has written
<mdke> damn my stream of consciousness
<LaserJock> people can search across many different areas I suppose. Perhaps a spec has something to do with what you are looking for. How do you know that the user isn't interested in specs or MOTU docs, etc.
<Burgwork> ergo, very few links to break and little referencing of the other area
<mdke> LaserJock, if they are interested in that, they go to the wiki and search
<Burgwork> LaserJock, that is the reason why we need another wiki
<mdke> if they want documentation, they go to documentation and search
<Burgwork> we don't know what they are searching for
<LaserJock> but it isn't always so clear cut. How is the user to know whether they need w.u.c or h.u.c ?
<Burgwork> they want help vs. they want to help Ubuntu
<Burgwork> there is a very clear cut line there
<LaserJock> it isn't to me
<mdke> they'll know, because it will be called the right thing
<mdke> help
<mdke> and it will have a massive logo on it :)
<LaserJock> but what if I need help packaging, for instance? (something I know) do I look at h.u.c or w.u.c?
<mdke> w
<mdke> because that is development
<LaserJock> but I needed help?
<Burgwork> that is helping Ubuntu, not setting up your printer
* mdke agrees, LaserJock needs help
<LaserJock> totally ;-)(
<LaserJock> umm ;-) even
<mdke> but you're not going to find that on anything.ubuntu.com
<LaserJock> ok, so what if you had a choice at h.u.c when you did a search to also search w.u.c?
* robotgeek thinks it is a search problem
<mdke> robotgeek, no, it's not as simple as that
<mdke> i think the mistake was presenting this as a search problem
<robotgeek> mdke: hmm, okay
<mdke> it's much bigger
<LaserJock> my problem is I don't see "help" as being very clearly defined so I'm having trouble drawing the line between help. and wiki.
<mdke> LaserJock, call it documentation then
<mdke> robotgeek, it's about giving users documentation in one place rather than two, and giving documentation a bigger and better profile
<Burgwork> robotgeek, search is one aspect of the problem
<LaserJock> mdke: there are a lot of wiki pages in MOTU/ that I would call documentation.
<jjesse> i have 90% of my time found the needed information by using the search for text function in  the wiki
<mdke> LaserJock, call it user documentation then
<Burgwork> end user help
<robotgeek> mdke: #3 on BetterWikiDocs makes a lot of sense
<Burgwork> MS has a clear distinction
<mdke> robotgeek, yeah, that should be #1 for me
<LaserJock> MS isn't very open either. we do our development in public which means, I think, that the separation is a little fuzzy
<Burgwork> yes, but think of the difference between MSDN and their knowledgebase
<LaserJock> what if what the user is wanting help on is addressed in a spec?
<mdke> LaserJock, i think you're clinging too hard to this "definition" thing. Just think about your users looking for documentation to use their system
<Burgwork> end users should not be using a spec to get help
<mdke> LaserJock, if the help is in a spec, then there is no need for us to assist them to find it, it should be in documentation
<LaserJock> mdke: the reason that I'm worried about the definition is that we will have to decide what goes to help.
<Burgwork> we can say in the help "This is going to be made easier by XYZ spec"
<LaserJock> sure
<mdke> LaserJock, that is not as difficult as you're making out, i repeat, think about users grappling with their system
<mdke> there is a pretty clear distinction between development and user documentation
<LaserJock> I suppose, although I think they are pretty closely tied together
<LaserJock> unless the help meets all the users needs
<mdke> they aren't, IMO.
<mdke> ok, i'm going to bed
<robotgeek> night mdke 
<mdke> nighty night
<LaserJock> I wouldn't be here if it wasn't for having to root around in the development to get the help I needed.
<mdke> LaserJock, no one is undervaluing that
<LaserJock> cya mdke, and just to let you know, I support the spec. I think it is a great idea
<mdke> :)
* robotgeek is still trying to understand the details
<LaserJock> I'm just trying to work through all the issues and get us thinking about it. I think there are disadvantages to anything but I think in this case the advantages far outweigh the disadvantages
<LaserJock> hmm, I don't suppose it is possible to have a test wiki (mediawiki maybe?) to do somewhat of a mockup?
<Burgwork> LaserJock, see the thread on -doc about improving the wiki to what it needs to be
<LaserJock> well, but for our separate wiki? I just wonder what it would look like? Same as right now with a link at help.u.c?
<Burgwork> ideally it would integrated svn and wiki
<Burgwork> mdke did some work on this
<LaserJock> cool
<robotgeek> hi, can anyone help with some docbook?
<robotgeek> desktopguide.xml:25: element book: validity error : root and DTD name do not match 'book' and 'article'
<LaserJock> robotgeek: umm, did you happen  to mix book and article somewhere?
<robotgeek> LaserJock: i don't think so
<robotgeek> LaserJock: lemme revert the files, lol
#ubuntu-doc 2007-02-19
<CIA-4> Ubuntu Documentation: philbull * r3824 xubuntu/libs/xubuntu.ent: Fix terminal entity (closes bug 83525)
<Ubugtu> Malone bug 83525 in xubuntu-docs "Listed location of "Terminal" is incorrect" [Undecided,In progress]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/83525
<CIA-4> Ubuntu Documentation: philbull * r3825 xubuntu/libs/xubuntu.ent: Corrected fix for 83525
<mdke> bdmurray: it's about 3 months since I filed my stable release update for ubuntu-docs, it's been sitting in -proposed for ages. Are you able to chase it up again?
<jsgotangco> hey
<bdmurray> mdke: I spoke to someone about it last Wednesday, I'll ping them again.
<Ubugtu> New bug: #47416 in ubuntu-docs (main) "Kubuntu Homepage links wrong" [Undecided,Confirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/47416
<Ubugtu> New bug: #61574 in firefox (main) "Broken link in firefox default home page (dup-of: 47416)" [Low,Confirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/61574
<nixternal> I just moved that bug over to kubuntu-docs instead
<nixternal> it is only our issue as we previously used the about-kubuntu doc for the front page
<Ubugtu> New bug: #55367 in ubuntu-doc "ServerGuide: "SMTP Authentication" command errors" [Undecided,Confirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/55367
<mdke> bdmurray: thans
<mdke> bdmurray: +k
<CIA-4> Ubuntu Documentation: lucius * r3826 xubuntu/libs/xubuntu.ent: correct guimenu structure relating to fix for #83525, also apply this fix to thunar entity
#ubuntu-doc 2007-02-20
<jjesse> hey nixternal how was class today?
<nixternal> jjesse: boring as usual :)
<jjesse> nixternal: so i sent the chpt off to the publisher, she wrote back, how do i open .odt files
<jjesse> i laughed
<nixternal> hahaha
<nixternal> can't you save OO.o files as .doc?
<nixternal> or did she figure it out?
<jjesse> yeah i saved the oo.o files a.doc
<jjesse> as .doc
<nixternal> ahh
<jjesse> and told her to install oo.o
<nixternal> woohoo! good job!
<jjesse> afk walking dog
<jjesse> back
<jjesse> hey nixternal does your dog ever zoom around super fast to burn off energy?
<nixternal> omg yes
<nixternal> especially after coming back from inside
<nixternal> and he slides all over the wood floors
<jjesse> we have a carpted upstairs he zooms around on
<nixternal> my dog is seriouly retarded
<nixternal> he stinks up the house, and he is so small
<jjesse> mine too, we jsut came in from outside, he just ran around and now he is standing by the door, going let me back out
* IronCitadel slaps IronCitadel around with a small 50lb Unix Manual
<nixternal> do it again!
<nixternal> make sure you use more force this time
<mdke> morning
<Madpilot> hi mdke
<willvdl> popey, ping
<Ubugtu> New bug: #46855 in kubuntu-docs (main) "table of contents for Application Manuals is out of control" [Medium,Confirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/46855
<Ubugtu> New bug: #46972 in kubuntu-docs (main) "index of links remained not translated for guides already translated" [Medium,Unconfirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/46972
#ubuntu-doc 2007-02-21
<Ubugtu> New bug: #48462 in kubuntu-docs (main) "Konqueror's help refers to menus removed in default Kubuntu profiles" [Medium,Confirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/48462
<Liz> quick question for anyone..
<Liz> are the two ubuntu books i saw at a tech show today, from any of our team?
<Liz> show = shop
<Admiral_Chicago> Liz: link?
<tonyyarusso> Liz: The one entitled "The Official Ubuntu Book" is.  Ubuntu Hacks may be as well - I don't remember the author.
<tonyyarusso> (As in, Jono might be on that one - I think he was for Linux Desktop Hacks)
<Admiral_Chicago> the Official Ubuntu Book is written by Jono Bacon, Benjamin Mako Hell, and Corey Burger
<Liz> i didnt have a look online ..wait one
<Liz> no, thats not the one i saw then
<Admiral_Chicago> so that is the one to get imho
<Liz> one was written by a french author
<Liz> i wanted to check before i actually got one
<Liz> besides..it was $80 NZD for the book
<nixternal> Admiral_Chicago: don't forget Jonathan Jesse as well
<nixternal> Jonathan wrote chapter 7
<Admiral_Chicago> and others...actually.
<Admiral_Chicago> there is some community writing in there as well
<nixternal> it was all created pretty much from community writing of some sort
<nixternal> I can't wait for the feisty release
<nixternal> speaking of which...
<Admiral_Chicago> thats true
<LaserJock> Admiral_Chicago: Benjamin Mako Hell? :-)
<nixternal> wth?
<nixternal> hahahahahahaha
<tonyyarusso> lol
<Admiral_Chicago> LaserJock: oh, dvorak keyboard...you know
<nixternal> dude, you just lost your membership!!
<nixternal> gahahahaha
<nixternal> Admiral_Chicago: quit blaming dvorak for that
<Admiral_Chicago> oh that's way off regardless
<Admiral_Chicago> HAHAHHa
* Admiral_Chicago ducks
* nixternal talks to mako
<nixternal> ya, like he is ever online
<nixternal> damn, he is online
<Admiral_Chicago> hahaha
<nixternal> LaserJock: you watch Boston Legal?
<LaserJock> nope
<nixternal> oh wow, this show is hillarious
<LaserJock> I'm guessing Mako Hell is where Bill Gates will go ;-)
<nixternal> rofl
<nixternal> oh wow, I just got an idea
<Admiral_Chicago> ya that's the second time nixternal pointed out me mispelling his name.
<Liz> http://www.techbooks.co.nz/scripts/techsearch.asp
<nixternal> haha, that's right
<nixternal> last time you spelled his name make
<Liz> thomas K was the one i saw
<Admiral_Chicago> yup
<Liz> the official ubuntu book wasnt on display
<Liz> tho that database says they had it
<Liz> id rather support our guys of course
<Liz> hence why i had to come and ask
<CIA-4> Ubuntu Documentation: nixternal * r3827 kubuntu/printing/C/printing.xml: kubuntu printing section - added new content
<CIA-4> Ubuntu Documentation: nixternal * r3828 kubuntu/printing/C/printing.xml: spell check is a neat feature :)
<mdke> morning
<LaserJock> hi mdke
<mdke> hiya LaserJock
<mdke> LaserJock: sent you a mail
<LaserJock> mdke: very interesting
<mdke> LaserJock: so did you discover how hard it is to make two binaries out of ubuntu-docs? Do you think we should just proceed and make a separate source package? It might be harder to get it into the repo
<LaserJock> well, it's certainly doable
<LaserJock> I'm just struggling for time these day :/
<LaserJock> waaaay to many deadlines at roughly the same time
<mdke> ya. I might be able to look into it if there is a simple guide
<mdke> you mentioned cdbs, that sounds a bit scary
<LaserJock> it's sort of a black box afair
<mdke> I think we should leave the packaging as much as possible the same as before, to avoid any unforeseen issues
<LaserJock> sure
<mdke> ok, gtg
<LaserJock> mdke: mostly I just need to experiment a little
<LaserJock> mdke: still up?
<nixternal> LaserJock: it is only 7pm there, he is to young to be in bed that early :)
<LaserJock> but young enough to be out doing non-Ubuntu things I suppose
<LaserJock> ;-)
<nixternal> on a Wednesday? never
<nixternal> haha
<LaserJock> I wonder if Christina Armstrong is ever on IRC
<nixternal> did you get her email as well today?
<nixternal> I seen her in #ubuntu-marketing like once I think
<LaserJock> hmm
<tonyyarusso> She came on for a meeting once or twice.  Nick was c?a, I think.  Maybe cja?
<nixternal> ya, something like that
<LaserJock> nixternal: I was going to file a bug but I'm not sure what I'm supposed to say
<mdke> LaserJock: hi
<LaserJock> mdke: well, I was able to get an ubuntu-serverguide .deb built
<mdke> ooh
<tonyyarusso> LaserJock: YAAAAYYY!
<LaserJock> mdke: but I'm still trying to get all the files going to the right package
<mdke> maybe I can help with that
* tonyyarusso high-fives anyone involved in packaging extra guides for installation locally.
<mdke> LaserJock: are you going to commit it?
<mdke> or maybe send me a patch or something with instructions about how I can help
<LaserJock> mdke: well, I had a couple questions
<LaserJock> what format do we want to ship the serverguide as?
<LaserJock> and I'm assuming we don't want it to depend on ubuntu-docs, is that right?
<mdke> yes
<mdke> html
<mdke> take the serverguide target from ubuntu/Makefile
<LaserJock> is the HTML done that way standalone?
<LaserJock> or does it link to common stuff?
<mdke> yes, you need the css and img stuff of course
<mdke> you'll see that under the serverguide target
<LaserJock> I'm just trying to figure out how to work this
<LaserJock> because 2 .debs can't own the same files
<mdke> so you'll need build/ubuntu/serverguide and build/ubuntu/common
<LaserJock> so I'm not sure what to do with the common files
<mdke> install everything in /usr/share/ubuntu-serverguide/
<LaserJock> yeah
<mdke> so /usr/share/ubuntu-serverguide/common and /usr/share/ubuntu-serverguide/html
<LaserJock> exactly
<mdke> that will work fine
<LaserJock> now we still want the serverguide XML in ubuntu-docs?
<mdke> no, that isn't shipped in ubuntu-docs
<LaserJock> or is the stuff you want in ubuntu/
<mdke> you don't need to change anything shipped in ubuntu-docs
<LaserJock> debian/rules has a section for installing generic/serverguide/
<LaserJock> for doc in server; do \
<mdke> not here
<mdke> server |= serverguide
<LaserJock> oh, that's the server material for TBH?
<mdke> that should be left
<mdke> nixternal: what's all that weird kubuntu/tmplibs about?
<LaserJock> I see, I was equating the two, my bad
<LaserJock> mdke: in the install though I see:
<LaserJock> generic/serverguide/sample/* usr/share/ubuntu-docs/ubuntu/sample
<mdke> stuff left over I guess
<mdke> I'll deal with that
<mdke> nixternal: I think I see what you're trying to do, you want to change the html.stylesheet parameter. But you shouldn't create a whole new separate folder with new files for that, just pass the parameter on the command in the Makefile. See the command under the "index" target in ubuntu/Makefile
<nixternal> mdke: ya, that was fine, however calling the images can't be changed like that
<nixternal> that is why I did it like that temporarily
<mdke> nixternal: you are using different images?
<nixternal> same images, but in the xslt template they are called ../../common and for the index.xml I need them as common/
<nixternal> s/are called/are called as/
<mdke> no, adjusting the path to the css works fine for that
<mdke> because the images are called by the css
<nixternal> well for Kubuntu docs none of the images are called rom css
<nixternal> s/rom/from
<mdke> how are they called?
<nixternal> kde-default nor kubuntu-default call the images. they are hardcoded in one of the .xsl files in kubuntu/libs
<mdke> eww
<nixternal> why? I don't know, I guess they have been that way since day one
<nixternal> I will look at changing that though
<LaserJock> hmm, so it seems ESR wants to become a MOTU
<mdke> haha
<LaserJock> I'm not sure how that will be
<mdke> nixternal: surely there must be a better way to do that than creating new files. Maybe just one separate xsl file will work
<LaserJock> I might have to watch what I say a bit more
<nixternal> mdke: the way the 3 xsl templates are tied in requires duplication of the 3
<nixternal> I will fix that though
<nixternal> I need to get ready for school, so in between classes tonight I will look into it
<LaserJock> man, this is going to make me nervous
<mdke> nixternal: you can customise xsl like you can with css files
<LaserJock> wow, ESR was a Red Hat guy for 13 years?
<LaserJock> mdke: I've got a seminar to go to, shouldn't be more than 45 min. and then I should have a package for you shortly
<mdke> LaserJock: awesome, I'll take a look later, thx
<Ubugtu> New bug: #86837 in kubuntu-docs (main) "[Feisty]  Links incorrect on Konqi main page" [Undecided,Unconfirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/86837
<LaserJock> mdke: around?
<mdke> LaserJock: (In case I'm not around at the moment, please provide a bit of information about what you want and I will respond when I get back)
<LaserJock> lol
<LaserJock> mdke: so ESR want's to make a man page browser system
<nixternal> LaserJock: he is late, KHelpCenter has done that for more than 10 years now :)
<LaserJock> nixternal: well, it's a bit different
<LaserJock> he actually wants to put all documentation in one place
<LaserJock> it's almost like our TBH stuff
<nixternal> ahhh
<LaserJock> he want's make a large serchable database of documentation
<nixternal> tell him to get on it then
<LaserJock> so he is currently grabbing *every* man page in Ubuntu
<nixternal> just don't blog about Ubuntu is all I ask
<LaserJock> and he's going to turn it into docbook
<nixternal> he was good in 99 when he wrote the revenge or whatever of hackers
<nixternal> since then he has been a virus
<nixternal> alright, class time. I will bbiab to work on the xsl and css for Kubuntu docs, and now that bug jjesse created
<LaserJock> nixternal: well, he might be coming over here shortly so be nice ;-)
<esr> Anybody home?
<LaserJock> hi!
<LaserJock> funny seeing you here ;-)
<esr> LserJock: I've made a launchpad account.  Should I just write up a spec, or are there political steps best taken first?
<LaserJock> esr: well, it doesn't really hurt to make the spec
<LaserJock> esr: but if it was me I'd send an email to the doc mailing list to sort of throw it around a bit
<esr> I will heed your advice.
<esr> I've already subscribed.
<LaserJock> a spec, in and of itself, doesn't mean a whole lot so there's not really any harm in creating one
<LaserJock> but I'm sure the team will have questions/comments/suggestions so I kinda like to braindump it to the list first
<LaserJock> usually because I don't want to make an idiot of myself
<esr> That's a good reason:-).
<LaserJock> although making an idiot of myself on a mailing list does tend to be a bit more permanent than doing it on the wiki
<mdke> LaserJock: hi
<LaserJock> mdke!
<LaserJock> I got it
<mdke> nice work
<LaserJock> mdke: what's the best way to rename a file in svn?
<mdke> svn mv?
<LaserJock> doh
<LaserJock> maybe I've been using CVS too much lately, I thought it was more complicated
<mdke> esr: I think you should continue talking to the gnome guys about help systems, they are working on a new project which probably overlaps with what I've read above
<mdke> in terms of desktop help systems, we'll be following GNOME in Ubuntu
<mdke> there's definitely room for system wide specifications, but there is existing talking upstream about it so that's the place to work
<esr> mdke:  I hear you.  What I'm actually hoping to do is sell this concept to the Linux Foundation, spin up a distribution-independent documentation infrastructure group fuunded by them, and then flog the resulting software to all distros.
<mdke> ah.
<esr> That having been said, there are things about Ubunti that suggest it would be the right place to do the first implementation.
<mdke> well, dig around for a spec on it, it exists
<esr> Project Mallard?  Googling now...
<mdke> there is some free desktop stuff on it too, I think
<mdke> talk to DonS and shaunm about it in the gnome-docs team
* mdke goes to bed
<esr> Oh, crap.  I'm reading the Project Mallard spec...
<LaserJock> mdke: just a sec
<LaserJock> mdke: should I just commit my changes?
<mdke> LaserJock: if they work, why not :)
<LaserJock> mdke: make sure to look them over
<esr> ...and it looks like a recipe for a mess to me.  First, they want to write a new markup language...
<LaserJock> I'm a little unsure of dependencies for the serverguide
<esr> and we don't *need* a new markup language!  We've got too many of the crusty buggers as it is!
<mdke> esr: plenty of discussion on the list about that. I myself questioned it and got some good responses
<mdke> LaserJock: will do
<mdke> night
<CIA-20> Ubuntu Documentation: mantha * r3829 debian/ (11 files):
<CIA-20> Ubuntu Documentation: * reworked packaging to make a standalone server guide .deb
<CIA-20> Ubuntu Documentation: * updated long descriptions of the packages now that the server guide
<CIA-20> Ubuntu Documentation:  and packaging guide aren't shipped
<LaserJock> \o/
#ubuntu-doc 2007-02-22
<nixternal> whoa, did CIA-20 says mantha?
* nixternal wipes his eyes
<LaserJock> nixternal: heah, don't be mean
<LaserJock> nixternal: I just made us an ubuntu-serverguide package
<jjesse> hello LaserJock
<LaserJock> hi jjesse
<jjesse> :)
<nixternal> yay
<CIA-20> Ubuntu Documentation: mantha * r3830 debian/rules: * make sure to install samples and css for serverguide
<CIA-20> Ubuntu Documentation: nixternal * r3831 kubuntu/printing/C/printing.xml: more printing content for kubuntu
<nixternal> slow down LaserJock
<nixternal> LaserJock: I am scared for Edubuntu docs. We are running out of time and I am stretched super thin with Kubuntu docs right now
<LaserJock> oh, in a sec we'll have a packaging guide .deb
<nixternal> woohoo
<LaserJock> nixternal: did you get the MIR done?
<nixternal> I got it started, you said you would tweak it
<LaserJock> k, I'll do that and try to get pitti to have a look
<nixternal> roger
<LaserJock> he's approved 2 Edubuntu MIRs for me already
<nixternal> cool
<nixternal> I am hoping to have a damn good grasp on Kubuntu docs completed this weekend
<nixternal> that leaves a week for proofing and cleaning up, and during that week hopefully get some work done on Edubuntu docs
<nixternal> i.e., the Handbook really
<crimsun> can you delegate?
<nixternal> crimsun: I have tried
<nixternal> people say yes they want to help and that is the end of it
<crimsun> ping me if you need proofing
<nixternal> oh, that I will most definitely do :)
<nixternal> you are on the proofing-ping-o-matic
<Admiral_Chicago> nixternal: proofing will be this weekend?
<nixternal> well, there are a couple of docs that are ready for some proofing I guess
<crimsun> if they're ready now, I'll look
<nixternal> Admiral_Chicago: proofing is rather easy, and I can show you how to create a patch as well to xml docs
<nixternal> trunk/kubuntu/games/C/games.xml is ready
<Admiral_Chicago> i'm free all weekend. let me know. by weekend, I also mean nights
<nixternal> I haven't had much time to do any proofing. I have been trying to sling content
<crimsun> that's fine; there has to be content to proof ;)
<nixternal> hehe, true
<nixternal> ahh, I need to get some sleep, early class tomorrow
<nixternal> yay!
<nixternal> g'nite everyone
<CIA-20> Ubuntu Documentation: mantha * r3832 debian/ (changelog control copyright rules):
<CIA-20> Ubuntu Documentation: * added packaging guide .deb
<CIA-20> Ubuntu Documentation: * updated copyright/changelog to reflect changes
<LaserJock> ok, I think I'm done with that for tonight
<mdke> LaserJock: :)
<LaserJock> mdke!
<LaserJock> mdke: I'm a little unsure of the .css
<mdke> i'll have a look
<LaserJock> mdke: but I'm able to build and install the server guide and packaging guide
<mdke> does "debuild" build both packages?
<LaserJock> yep
<mdke> packaging guide too? wow
<LaserJock> yep
<mdke> nice one
<LaserJock> well, once I got the server guide it was pretty trivial to do the packaging guide
<LaserJock> nice, looks like dholbach is up
<mdke> very cool
<LaserJock> it'd be nice to have him go over it too
<mdke> yes indeed
<mdke> LaserJock: you should install the serverguide stuff in /usr/share/ubuntu-serverguide/html/C, the css doesn't work
<LaserJock> bah
<LaserJock> I wondered
<mdke> ditto with packaging-guide
<LaserJock> mdke: you going to fix that or shall I?
<mdke> I'll do that, you should probably go to bed
<LaserJock> heh, yeah
<mdke> seems fairly clear in debian/rules
<LaserJock> I saw that the css was odd but I just copied it as-is form the build/ubuntu/
<mdke> it's just the number of directories up that is the problem
<LaserJock> yeah, it just took a while for me to figure out how to get the files to go where I wanted without sucking in the ubuntu-docs files
<CIA-4> Ubuntu Documentation: mdke * r3833 debian/rules: installing html in a special HTML directory, fixes css location issues
<LaserJock> ok, could you email dholbach for me?
<mdke> sure
<LaserJock> just what we did and just make sure he looks it over before he uploads
<LaserJock> I'd hate to break everything
<LaserJock> once he uploads then the new .debs will go ot the NEW queue where the archive admins can review and approve them
<mdke> sure
<mdke> ok, looks good now
<LaserJock> thanks
<mdke> thanks for your work on that, it's awesome
<LaserJock> np
<LaserJock> I'm off now
<LaserJock> mdke: did you try the new packaging?
<mdke> LaserJock: yes, you were here when I did
<mdke> dholbach said it looked good, not sure if he has uploaded already
<mdke> doesnt look like it
<mdke> meh, 54 new bugmail in like an hour
<LaserJock> mdke: for what?
<mdke> goddam website
<LaserJock> mdke: did you happen to see my website bug?
<LaserJock> for the test
<mdke> I've been ignoring website bugmail since yesterday
<LaserJock> ah :-)
<LaserJock> well, I was suprised nobody reported it
<LaserJock> I was wondering if I did it right
<mdke> what was it?
<mdke> i see it
<LaserJock> the label for the 6.06 Server download is label as 6.10
<mdke> well, as far as I can see, a lot of the pages have basically been rewrites
<mdke> which I regard as totally weird, but it's normal that there are loads of errors in them
<LaserJock> it looks nice
<mdke> so go ahead and report anything you see
<LaserJock> I like the download page much better
<mdke> yes the look is good
<LaserJock> well, what about general feedback, not specific bugs?
<mdke> yeah, everything
<mdke> check for dupes though
<mdke> -->dinner
#ubuntu-doc 2007-02-23
<Ubugtu> New bug: #87203 in ubuntu-docs (main) "Wrong startup page in Firefox" [Undecided,Confirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/87203
<mdke> morning
<Madpilot> morning mdke
<mdke> hiya Madpilot, how are you?
<Madpilot> good. re-starting my flight training, finally - working with an instructor to finish my Commercial PL
<mdke> cool
<Madpilot> expensive, but cool
<Laser_away> mdke: thanks for poking the appropriate people ;-)
<mdke> anytime
<mdke> poking is my middle name
* mdke pokes bdmurray 
<Laser_away> mdke: do you know what's up with ~ubuntu-doc-lists ?
<mdke> yeah, there's a bug open about it
<mdke> Madpilot: are you using Feisty?
<mdke> Laser_away: it's basically unused and there doesn't seem to be a way to remove it
<Laser_away> mdke: I'm guessing it was created from an upload
<mdke> from the import from bugzilla
<Laser_away> oh, that far back
* mdke nods
<Laser_away> we are having the issue with Universe and Main packages
<Laser_away> we switched to explicitly setting the Maintainer: to ubuntu-motu@l.u.c and ubuntu-devel-discuss@l.u.c
<mdke> I read something about that
<Laser_away> but since those lists aren't associated with any team in LP the first uploads created new people
<Laser_away> so now we have ~ubuntu-motu and ~ubuntu-devel-discuss as the Maintainers of Universe and Main
<mdke> right
<Laser_away> I guess maybe it's just me but it really bugs me
<Laser_away> and it seems like LP needs to be able to handle this better
<mdke> probably
<Madpilot> mdke, hardly. I still haven't updated this box past Dapper :)
<Laser_away> anyway, I'm trying to work on it and poke LP devs
<Madpilot> I'm also horribly lagged - the landlord's crap router is being crap again...
<mdke> Madpilot: ah right
<Laser_away> Madpilot: all my Linux machines run Feisty ;-)
<Laser_away> I upgraded my "server" machine the other day
<Madpilot> Breezy->Dapper broke completely, so I got a bit gunshy about dist-upgrades. I've also been stupidly busy since Edgy came out...
<mdke> try it if you get a chance, and tell me what you think of the new help structure
<Madpilot> I'll find the Feisty torrent tomorrow morning, and leave the machine running when I leave for the day
<Madpilot> hopefully torrenting won't nuke the landlord's shitty router...
<mdke> :)
<mdke> morning joachim-n
<Madpilot> I should also make time next week to babysit the dist-upgrade of this box...
<joachim-n> hi mdke
<joachim-n> how's it all going?
<mdke> joachim-n: I see they reverted the control-center back to the menus, what shall we do about the user-guide?
<joachim-n> oh. was the new one not ready?
<mdke> apparently not
<joachim-n> I thought it was definite. last-minute hiccups?
<mdke> let's continue in #docs
<mdke> mpt: did you get a chance yet to have a think about the yelp front page look?
<mpt> oh, lots of thinking, no doing
<mpt> typical mpt, IOW
<mdke> :)
<mdke> any small fixes? I thought increasing the width of the left hand column would help to reduce the depth
<mpt> You're forcing me to learn XSLT, aren't you, I can tell
<mdke> no, I can play around with it
<mdke> small fixes can be done in the css :)
<mdke> afk
<nixternal> mdke: hahah, damn that Mickey Mouse!
<nixternal> I am sure he has an Apple only clause in his contract with Disney and Pixar
<Ubugtu> New bug: #87354 in ubuntu-docs (main) "Wrong link on Herd4 testing page" [Undecided,Unconfirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/87354
<CIA-4> Ubuntu Documentation: nixternal * r3834 kubuntu/internet/C/internet.xml: cleaning and contenting :)
<nixternal> hiya guys
<mdke> hi nixternal
<LaserJock> hi nixternal and mdke
<mdke> hi LaserJock
<jjesse> hiya LaserJock
<LaserJock> mdke: ubuntu-docs still holding together? :-)
<mdke> I've chased the yelp guy about making edubuntu work, I'm getting slightly concerned about time for that
<mdke> LaserJock: seems to be
<LaserJock> mdke: :/
<mdke> i'll let you know if he replies soon
<LaserJock> that would be good
<LaserJock> we need to get a MIR approved and seed changes if it's going to go on the CD
<nixternal> LaserJock: time is worrying me as well
<LaserJock> bah, plenty of time!!!
<LaserJock> ;-)
<LaserJock> you guys need to hang out in -motu more often ;-)
<mdke> what would be the MIR for? edubuntu-docs isn't in main already?
<LaserJock> nope
<mdke> where were the docs before?
<LaserJock> it's never really had content so it's in Universe
<mdke> ah
<LaserJock> we've always used ubuntu-docs
<mdke> ah, ok
<nixternal> LaserJock: I am always in -motu
<mdke> well, I'll do my best with that
<mdke> ironically, it would have worked with my first patch on yelp, but Don's is done differently
<LaserJock> nixternal: I don't think you were there in the old days (semi-old days)
<nixternal> been there for over a year I believe
<nixternal> but I know what you are getting it
<LaserJock> mdke: worst case I guess we'd have to live with having both About Ubuntu and About Edubuntu
<mdke> yes
<LaserJock> when I first started it was like the last couple weeks of Breezy
<LaserJock> and we were literally uploading stuff hours before release, if I remember right
<jjesse> hello
<nixternal> LaserJock: I am hoping to have Kubuntu complete and proofed this week, getting the pots uploaded by freeze of course
<nixternal> hola jjesse
<nixternal> argh, my dog is annoying, brb
<jjesse> sigh i have 5 reviewed copies of my chpt to go through
<jjesse> you know the funny part is that the editor from prentince hall doesn't use open office
<nixternal> heh, I remember you telling me she said "what's an odt" or something along those lines
#ubuntu-doc 2007-02-24
<CIA-4> Ubuntu Documentation: mdke * r3835 ubuntu/translate.sh:
<CIA-4> Ubuntu Documentation: comming modifications to this script from Luca Falavigna, wholly
<CIA-4> Ubuntu Documentation: untested
<CIA-4> Ubuntu Documentation: nixternal * r3836 kubuntu/internet/C/internet.xml: more cleaning and contenting
<CIA-4> Ubuntu Documentation: bhuvan * r3837 generic/serverguide/C/mail.xml: fix the number of days in openssl command
<CIA-4> Ubuntu Documentation: nixternal * r3838 kubuntu/internet/C/internet.xml: kubuntu internet topic ready for review - draft mode
<CIA-4> Ubuntu Documentation: nixternal * r3839 kubuntu/network/C/network.xml: kubuntu network topic ready for review - draft mode
<CIA-4> Ubuntu Documentation: nixternal * r3840 kubuntu/ (7 files in 7 dirs): changed status to review - fixed add-application links - spell checking - new content
<nixternal> woohoo, go go go!!!
<LaserJock> that's right!
* LaserJock high-fives nixternal 
<nixternal> man, I am over 75% complete now
<nixternal> I might have a solid week to work on Edubuntu docs after this
<nixternal> my 2 hogs are complete, thank god
<nixternal> minor tweaks to the rest I am hoping
<nixternal> mdke and jjesse: I am removing the switching from Kubuntu as there is no way it will be ready for this release. jjesse if we can meet and see about making this a priority for a stand alone on either help.ubuntu.com or the wiki would be great
<CIA-4> Ubuntu Documentation: nixternal * r3841 kubuntu/ (switching/ unused/switching/): I just told you I was getting rid of it, moving it into unused for the time being
<CIA-4> Ubuntu Documentation: nixternal * r3842 kubuntu/ (Makefile index.xml): cleaning up switching remnants
<CIA-4> Ubuntu Documentation: nixternal * r3843 kubuntu/programming/C/programming.xml: can't forget programming - ready for review
<nixternal> I hate our wiki with a passion. It needs to be updated so bad
<CIA-4> Ubuntu Documentation: nixternal * r3844 kubuntu/ (15 files in 11 dirs): adding, moving, doing it all
<CIA-4> Ubuntu Documentation: nixternal * r3845 kubuntu/basic-concepts/ (C/basic-concepts.xml basic-concepts.xml): moving some more
<CIA-4> Ubuntu Documentation: nixternal * r3846 kubuntu/ (3 files in 3 dirs): spring cleaning
<CIA-4> Ubuntu Documentation: nixternal * r3847 kubuntu/ (3 files in 3 dirs): more content, cleaning up, status writing on basic-concepts, status review on files-and-docs
* nixternal passes out
<mdke> nixternal: the ubuntu version is also bad?
<mdke> nixternal: I wonder if the standalone version could include ubuntu & kubuntu at the same time...
<mdke> nixternal: we should ask philbull
<CIA-4> Ubuntu Documentation: philbull * r3848 ubuntu/switching/C/applications.xml: Changed categorise to American spelling for C locale
<mdke> speak of the devil
<nixternal> mdke: the Ubuntu version of the switching guide is fine from what I have seen, but I dont know if anyone has gone through it with a fine comb
<nixternal> the Kubuntu one is bad, it is big time empty
<nixternal> hiya jjesse
<jjesse> hiya nixternal
<jjesse> been away
<jjesse> out doing saturday long run
<jjesse> that's fine w/ me if you remove the switching guide
<jjesse> hey nixternal you guys getting snow and stuff today?
<nixternal> jjesse: in a little bit we should be
<jjesse> nixternal: we are under a winter storming warning
<jjesse> a large water main broke in downtown gr
<nixternal> same here
<nixternal> lovely, you guys will probably get it harder than us due to theh lake effect I am sure
<nixternal> we are freezing rain, snow, freezing rain, snow and so on
<jjesse> usually
<jjesse> but last weekend we were supposed to get it, but nothing happed
<nixternal> ya same here
<mdke> nixternal: ok, shame
<nixternal> oh no
<nixternal> what now?
<mdke> nixternal: no, I meant shame about the switching guide
<jjesse> yeah its my fault
<jjesse> i got too busy w/ work
<jjesse> and the chptr
<mdke> np, we'll get people on it next release
<nixternal> oh ya, well it has been a super hectic release cycle around here, but I am making it a priority to be released hopefully within the next couple of months seperately
<nixternal> jjesse: it is far from your fault, you did more work on it during this release than I did
<mdke> bbl
<jjesse> nixternal: i know
<jjesse> i have 4 reviews of the book to reconcile
<nixternal> jjesse: we will get it done eventually :)
<jjesse> i know
<jjesse> jeez how large is our archvie?
<nixternal> heh, it is getting bigger and bigger
#ubuntu-doc 2007-02-25
<CIA-4> Ubuntu Documentation: philbull * r3849 edubuntu/handbook/C/using.xml: Fixed broken links
<CIA-4> Ubuntu Documentation: philbull * r3850 kubuntu/unused/switching/C/installing.xml: Fixed broken links
<CIA-4> Ubuntu Documentation: philbull * r3851 xubuntu/desktopguide/C/guided-tour.xml: Fixed broken links
<CIA-4> Ubuntu Documentation: philbull * r3852 generic/packagingguide/C/bugs.xml: Fixed broken links
<CIA-4> Ubuntu Documentation: philbull * r3853 generic/packagingguide/C/ubuntu.xml: Fixed broken links
<CIA-4> Ubuntu Documentation: philbull * r3854 generic/contribute/C/contribute.xml: Fixed broken links
<CIA-4> Ubuntu Documentation: philbull * r3855 generic/styleguide/reference.xml: Fixed broken links
<nixternal> our weather is horrible
<nixternal> we have about 4" of sleet and snow
<tonyyarusso> same, but I wish is was more :)
<dsas> here it is miserable and rainy :)
<LaserJock> it's just windy and cold here so far
<nixternal> anyone here us the efax or any other faxing application with Ubuntu/Kubuntu
<tonyyarusso> nixternal: I did once, I think on Breezy.
<nixternal> there isn't much in the way of "faxing" in the repos
<tonyyarusso> not a ton, no
<nixternal> plenty of readers, one or 2 senders that are prehistoric
<LaserJock> theCore: btw, for your info, we have a packaging-guide .deb in Feisty now
<tonyyarusso> LaserJock: thanks
<theCore> LaserJock: oh, nice
<theCore> packaging-manual?
<theCore> nevermind
<theCore> I wish a had a bit more time for helping on the docs
<tonyyarusso> LaserJock: it might be nice to have consistency in naming between ubuntu-serverguide and packaging-guide
<theCore> but, right now, all my time is on school work...
<LaserJock> tonyyarusso: well, I think the packaging-guide can be generic in the future
<tonyyarusso> LaserJock: Likely.  I don't know which should change, if at all, it just struck me as odd when I went to install them :)
<CIA-4> Ubuntu Documentation: nixternal * r3856 kubuntu/printing/C/printing.xml: Kubuntu printing and scanning section complete - status review
<CIA-4> Ubuntu Documentation: nixternal * r3857 kubuntu/windows/: this only works if we have the switching guide for Kubuntu :(
<tonyyarusso> LaserJock: Is there a convenient way to opent hte packaging guide once installed?
<LaserJock> it's just html
<LaserJock> open up /usr/share/packaging-guide/html/C/index.html
<LaserJock> I think that's it
<tonyyarusso> But I have to hunt for the file, no nice links created.  all right
<LaserJock> hmm, I'l have to think about that
<parktownprawn> I have a question about formating on the wiki if anyone is around
<parktownprawn> how does one use an image as a link?
<parktownprawn> there are instructions on the HelpOnLinking page but they don't seem to work -
<parktownprawn> just compare https://wiki.ubuntu.com/HelpOnLinking and http://moinmoin.wikiwikiweb.de/HelpOnLinking
<parktownprawn> on the ubuntu wiki the name moinmoin.png appears rather than the image it self
<LaserJock> hmm, could be our version of moin does it differently
<parktownprawn> yes - either that or the icon isn't on our version
<parktownprawn> i'm asking because I would like the icons on the UbuntuScientists page to like to package information
<parktownprawn> i mean to link to package information
<parktownprawn> Do you know how  which version of MoinMoin the wiki uses and where I could find the documentation>
<parktownprawn> I tried something like
<parktownprawn> [http://packages.ubuntu.com/edgy/science/kstars attachment:IconsPage/edubuntu.png]  but it didn't show the image
<parktownprawn> anyway maybe someone of the documentation mailing list will know
<LaserJock> perhaps, I'm not much help with the wiki
<LaserJock> have you had a thought of splitting up UbuntuScientists
<parktownprawn> yes - its definitely on my list of things to do - the page is getting rather unweildy
<parktownprawn> anyway i've sent email to the domentation mailing list - i'm sure someone knows alot about the wiki
<parktownprawn> i also want to get around to making a list of Howto's for Ubuntu science -eg how to install latex ect.
<LaserJock> what about Debian science wiki pages?
<parktownprawn> Do you mean getting information from them or editing them?
<LaserJock> do you know what they have?
<LaserJock> I've only see bits here and there
<parktownprawn> ah yes there is lots of stuff but is pretty sprawling and disorganised - clearly built up by lots of people at different times -
<CIA-4> Ubuntu Documentation: nixternal * r3858 kubuntu/ (7 files in 6 dirs): minor tweaks, makefile update, temporary index file update
<mdke> morning all
<mdke> stupid email isn't working :(
<CIA-4> Ubuntu Documentation: nixternal * r3859 kubuntu/khelpdesktop/kubuntu/ (packaginguide.desktop serverguide.desktop): removing packing and server guides for Kubuntu docs
<CIA-4> Ubuntu Documentation: nixternal * r3860 kubuntu/ (14 files in 14 dirs): adding abstracts to the doc info is at the top of the toc instead of at the bottom
<jjesse> nixternal:  PING
<jjesse> nixternal: away for dinner
<nixternal> yo yo
<Ubugtu> New bug: #87894 in ubuntu-doc "Server Guide - Installing from CD for Edgy" [Undecided,Unconfirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/87894
<CIA-4> Ubuntu Documentation: nixternal * r3861 kubuntu/ (config-desktop/C/config-desktop.xml internet/C/internet.xml): adding content
<CIA-4> Ubuntu Documentation: nixternal * r3862 kubuntu/ (config-desktop/ unused/config-desktop/): lets try this again
<CIA-4> Ubuntu Documentation: nixternal * r3863 kubuntu/sys-config/ (. C/ C/new_config-desktop.xml): sys-config is a breakout from desktop-config
<CIA-4> Ubuntu Documentation: nixternal * r3864 kubuntu/ (5 files in 4 dirs): this is a little better I think
<CIA-4> Ubuntu Documentation: nixternal * r3865 kubuntu/system-settings/C/ (new_config-desktop.xml system-settings.xml): renaming xml file to match directory
#ubuntu-doc 2008-02-18
<koolkat> hello?
<koolkat> I NEED TO TALK TO SOMEONE
<koolkat> How do I become a Documentation Member?
<nixternal> if you would have stayed a minute longer, I would have told him
<nixternal> man, I talked to him yesterday about MOTU, this guy really wants to help
<Flannel> He's still around, query him
<nixternal> ya, talking to him in #ubuntu-devel
<nixternal> he is coming now
<nixternal> right now!
<nixternal> now!
<nixternal> and
<nixternal> now!
<nixternal> ......
<nixternal> now!
<nixternal> now!
<nixternal> man, I stink
<koolkat> Hello
<nixternal> damn, 3 seconds off :)
<nixternal> koolkat: you use Ubuntu or Kubuntu?
<koolkat> Ubuntu
<nixternal> familiar with DocBook/XML?
<nixternal> familiar with Bazaar?
<koolkat> uhhh....no
<nixternal> OK, can you do HTML?
<koolkat> no(again)
<koolkat> Yes
<koolkat> Some
<nixternal> great, so DocBook/XML should be easy to pick up
 * koolkat wonders what your talking about
<koolkat> why?
<nixternal> Bazaar is similar to Subversion
<koolkat> So...that are you talking about :-?
<nixternal> well, we code all of our documentation in DocBook/XML, and all of our code lies within a Bazaar repository on Launchpad
<nixternal> https://wiki.kubuntu.org/DocumentationTeam
<koolkat> Oh...I know how to do the Doc stuff
<nixternal> that has some good information on how to get involved
<koolkat> I already did like 20 today
<nixternal> groovy
<koolkat> so .....how do they make me a member?
<nixternal> sign up on the documentation team mailing list at https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-doc
<koolkat> are you a member?
<koolkat> Ok
<nixternal> well, you have to contribute for a while before you become a member
<nixternal> yes, myself and jjesse who isn't around maintain all of the Kubuntu and KDE documentation
<koolkat> you want to slip in a few good word for me.....wink wink
<nixternal> the head people for the Ubuntu side are mdke, who is obviously sleeping right now, and Phil Bull, who I don't see on IRC much, but he is all over the mailing list
<nixternal> well, gotta see your work first
<nixternal> there are student memberships available, and if you ask about it on the mailing list, Phil will probably fill you in on that team info
<koolkat> my work.....I am doing a lot in the applications list...and
<koolkat> i cant remember
<koolkat> what i wasgoing to say
<nixternal> well, if it is Gnome related, there is a 99.9% chance I will rarely see your work
<nixternal> and Phil should have a list of jobs available either now or fairly soon for Ubuntu 8.04 documentation
<koolkat> nixternal: i subscribed to the mailing list
<nixternal> groovy
<nixternal> it isn't all that high traffic, so it is easy to keep up with
<koolkat> anything else that i should do?
<nixternal> familiarize yourself with docbook, bazaar, and some of the things mentioned on the wiki page and you should be good to go
<nixternal> https://wiki.kubuntu.org/HardyReleaseSchedule
<nixternal> always good to know the release schedule for this cycle as well
<koolkat> So how do I get notice by mdke or Phill Bull?
<nixternal> contribute patches to the mailing list for any projects they may have
<koolkat> my username on the doc stuff is aakashpatel
<koolkat> i dont know why just said that
<koolkat> but there you go
<nixternal> hehe, no prob, thanks
<koolkat> how does this look? https://help.ubuntu.com/community/CompositeManager/Xgl/simple
<nixternal> nice, clean, and simple..just the way we like it :)
<koolkat> good....:-)
<koolkat> Is this the page to list all of the software availibe for ubuntu? https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Software
<koolkat> Becase i just added like 8 programs
<nixternal> I guess so
<nixternal> first I have noticed that page before honestly
<koolkat> have or havent?
<nixternal> I haven't seen it before
<koolkat> ok
<koolkat> so what do you write in
<koolkat> what sections?
<nixternal> I haven't been on the community wiki in a while actually
<koolkat> but isnt that where Im supposed to start?
<nixternal> I have been spending a lot of time with Kubuntu and KDE development that documentation has been on a back burner for me here lately...gotta change that though
<nixternal> koolkat: yes
<koolkat> where should "I" start?
<koolkat> in ubuntu
<nixternal> I always say "scratch your itch"...fix things that relate to you, work on things that relate to you..therefore making it easier on you
<koolkat> Ok
<nixternal> there are so many places to start in Ubuntu....documentation, user support in #ubuntu, bug triage, packaging, there is even some marketing and LoCo team stuff as well
<koolkat> what does LoCo do?
<nixternal> Local Community Team...they do advocation for Ubuntu and other types of work locally within your home community
<koolkat> do you have a linksys router?
<nixternal> Cisco
<koolkat> I thought they only make those expensive ones.
<nixternal> I tend to stay away from the consumer products, plus I got my PIX 501 for free
<koolkat> how?
<nixternal> a friend of mine
<koolkat> oh
<koolkat> i got to go
<mdke> morning all
<Lhademmor> hi
<Lhademmor> HI!
<Lhademmor> arh, screw this
#ubuntu-doc 2008-02-19
<koolkat> nixternal?
<koolkat> ARE YOU IN HERE????
<koolkat> :-?
<jjesse> he might be eating dinner
<jjesse> can i help you?
<koolkat> jjesse: how do I get noticed in the help.ubuntu/community by the leaders....because i like to post there and I wanted to me a doc team member.
<koolkat> did i miss anything?
<koolkat> jjesse: did you respond to my question....because i just signed off.
<koolkat> ?
<koolkat> :-?
<jjesse> sorry wife was tlaking to me
<koolkat> jjesse: ok
<koolkat> jjesse: did you get my question?
<jjesse> koolkat: yes i did wife is talking with me
<koolkat> jjesse, oh...sorry
<jjesse> koolkat: you just need an account on launchpad to edit or add to help.ubuntu.com
<koolkat> jjesse, i know that but there is an actual Documentation team.....isnt there
<koolkat> jjesse, i already have the launch pad account
<jjesse> koolkat: yes there
<jjesse> is
<koolkat> jjesse, thats what i thought
<koolkat> jjesse, who determines if you are on that team?
<jjesse> have you applied to the team on launchpad?  have you emailed the doc team mailing list introducting yourself?
<koolkat> jjesse, https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-doc where is the apply link?
<jjesse> there should be a join
<koolkat> jjesse, either i need glasses or its not there (probably the first one)
<koolkat> jjesse, it says administrator approval required, but where do i apply?
<jjesse> send an meail to the doc team introducing yourself and what you would bring to the team
<koolkat> jjesse, I CANT FIND THE ADDRESS!!!!
<jjesse> koolkat: please relax, ubuntu-doc@lists.ubuntu.com
 * koolkat takes deep breaths 
<koolkat> jjesse, Ok i sent an email to them.
<koolkat> jjesse, are you in the wiki team?
<jjesse> yes koolkat i am part of the wiki team as well
<koolkat> Ok
<koolkat> I registered for that too
<koolkat> i hopefully get invited
 * koolkat sleepy
<sommer> mdke: hello, is it still cool to commit some new sections to the hardy branch?
<jjesse> sommer: i think we haven't hit string freeze yet
<jjesse> which is when we have to stop committing
<sommer> jjesse: ya, but with the new proposed "soft freeze", I guess you'd call it, I wanted to make sure
<sommer> plus with all the translation work Matt's doing I wanted to make sure :-)
<sommer> errr... double sure
<jjesse> sommer: i totally undstand
<jjesse> i think the work matt is doing is jumpstarting the process i htink he did it last release w/ great success
<sommer> gotcha, sounds good to me
<ubotu> New bug: #193380 in ubuntu-doc "crashes when opening on internet" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/193380
<Lhademmor> Hey, is the doc-team responsible for the IdeaPool?
<Lhademmor> Because it sure as hell needs maintenance/cleanup!
<sommer> Lhademmor: I don't think the Doc Team is responsible, mostly the doc team covers help.u.c and the system documentation
<sommer> wiki.u.c is the development wiki used to coordinate Ubuntu development
<Lhademmor> sommer, then who should I poke in order to get it cleaned up? It seems like a joke that it has such big a role at http://www.ubuntu.com/community/participate/
<sommer> you might try #ubuntu-dev and see if anyone knows there... I could also be wrong and it is part of the doc team, but I've never seen any discussion about it
<sommer> from the doc team that is
<mdke> sommer: yep, what jjesse said
<sommer> mdke: party!
<mdke> sommer: to respond to your email, sure if you'd like to have a go at the ppa thing, that would be great. No time constraints, it's just a neat new feature
<sommer> mdke: cool, I'll try and do some testing this weekend
<mdke> maybe see if there is another ppa session in the Developer Week and see if you can catch it :)
<mdke> sommer: another thing I wanted to discuss with you... Do you think it's worth the effort to make a distinction between serverguide and server in the tree?
<mdke> the latter was supposed to be the same except without the sections which are irrelevant to a desktop system, such as those which are included elsewhere in the help center
<mdke> i don't know whether that distinction would affect any of the new sections in the guide which you guys have added this cycle
<sommer> mdke: I don't think there'd be much affect on the new sections
<sommer> how would you make the distinction?
<mdke> what is currently done is that "server" is installed in the help center, while serverguide is installed as html for the server edition
<sommer> mdke: right, I'm with ya
<sommer> I'm not sure it would make much difference to the tree
<sommer> are you thinking of new contributers?
<mdke> if we remove it, we don't have to sync the two each release, and we don't have the confusion that you guys have experienced about which one to contribute to
<sommer> mdke: heh... I'm with ya
<sommer> I guess I'm cool with either way, I believe there was discussion at UDS boston about seperating the server guide
<sommer> it is kind of handy to have it in yelp though
<sommer> but maybe it's only handy for me :-)
<mdke> you mean separating it into a different repository
<sommer> no I was thinking what you were, but I believe the UDS discussion was along those lines
<mdke> i do think it's handy to have the guide in yelp, I'm just not convinced that there is any reason to maintain slightly different versions for that purpose, we could just use the whole of the serverguide in yelp
<sommer> I guess if we send a message to the server ml and the doc ml to see if anyone else has to have it, and if not I agree we can just use serverguide
<sommer> mdke: I agree
<mdke> ok, fair enough
<sommer> mdke: I'll send a message this evening... should have an idea of how to proceed by the weekend I'd think
<mdke> cool
#ubuntu-doc 2008-02-20
<Djerodek> Hey guys and gals, may I inquire as to the use of an Ubuntu Live CD?
<Gabz> you probably want to do that in #ubuntu
<Djerodek> thanks
<stimpie> I read somewhere you can convert your wiki into docbook, is this indeed the case? how do you do this?
<stimpie> never mind I found it, its a moinmoin feature
<sommer> mdke: thanks for the clarification, I guess I wasn't entirely clear on what the plan was either ;-)
<sommer> mdke: I also was pondering how I got things so wrong, and I think I was just doing to many things at once yesterday... heh
#ubuntu-doc 2008-02-21
<bodhi_zazen> Quick question, from the beginner team re: wiki pages
<bodhi_zazen> we made a fe wiki pages in community and would like to delete them, is there a process or method to do so ?
<bodhi_zazen> thanks
#ubuntu-doc 2008-02-22
<j1mc> i'm afraid to do a bzr merge because i haven't done one in about a week and a half, and there are going to be 30 billion ubuntu-hardy updates.  :)
<j1mc> gah, i can't get a file to validate
<j1mc> and i don't see why it's not validating.
<sommer> what's the error
<j1mc> hi sommer...
<sommer> hey
<j1mc> xubuntu/internet/C/internet.xml:978: element link: validity error : IDREF attribute linkend references an unknown ID "add-applications"
<j1mc> but it validates earlier in the file.  the same type of reference.
<sommer> ah, does the idref link to a section in another file?
<j1mc> <link linkend="add-applications">Add Applications</link>
<j1mc> why would that validate sometimes, but not all the time
<sommer> hrrmmmm
<sommer> the same link is in another location in the file?
<sommer> ah, I see that it does
<j1mc> yes
<j1mc> hmmm... i guess it doesn't validate in other areas, sorry.
<j1mc> should i try an xref link instead?
<j1mc> a ulink?
<sommer> I'm not sure, is <link> used in previous versions?
<sommer> seems like it'd be okay
<sommer> I get the unknown id error for all the add-application links when I try and validate that file
<j1mc> yeah
<j1mc> see 22:44 ^^  sorry for the confusion.
<sommer> if you ./validate xubuntu/index.xml do you get an error?
<sommer> I see the same error if I try to validate generic/serverguide/C/mail.xml for example
<sommer> because the xref tags link to sections of another file
<sommer> but if you ./validate generic/serverguide/C/serverguide.xml which includes all the files it will know the end of the link
<sommer> if that makes sense... I think it's the same issue anyway
<sommer> :-)
<j1mc> no, it doesn't validate either
<j1mc> index.xml ...
<sommer> woops, my local xubuntu-hardy is out of date
<sommer> updating
<j1mc> ok
<sommer> I didn't get any errors when validating index.xml though
<sommer> does the link work in yelp?
<j1mc> let me try
<j1mc> no, it won't open in yelp.  :(
<sommer> yep definitely a problem... heh
<sommer> I don't have my xubuntu-hardy copy bzr bound and I did a bzr merge, do I then just do a bzr commit?
<sommer> so far I've been using bzr pretty much like svn :-)
<j1mc> yes... you'd do a bzr merge, and then commit
<j1mc> i did get the index to open in yelp
<sommer> cool, just wanted to make sure
<j1mc> :)
<sommer> poo I think my local copy is borked... now index.xml won't validate
<sommer> sigh
<j1mc> crap...
<sommer> the add-applications section didn't change did it?
<j1mc> just changing stuff like "ubuntu" to "xubuntu"
<sommer> ah, was thinking that maybe applications got misspelled by mistake or something
<j1mc> lemme do a bzr diff on it.
<sommer> heh, the links seem to work in yelp for me
<j1mc> nothing in there that would cause any problems.  i can fix index.xml.  it's the other file that has me confused.
<j1mc> yeah, the links work ok
<j1mc> weird.
<sommer> you might ask mdke, he has more experience with docbook than I do :-)
<j1mc> cool.  :)
<j1mc> thanks for your help, sommer :)
<sommer> np, wish I'd had a solution though... heh
<j1mc> yeah, no worries.
<j1mc> they aren't due tomorrow.  :)
<sommer> true true
<bodhi_zazen> 'lo all
<bodhi_zazen> anyone available for a question re: deleting wiki pages ?
<ubotu> New bug: #194514 in kubuntu-docs (main) "FTBFS in latest archive rebuild test" [High,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/194514
 * jpatrick hmms at the above
<mdke> jpatrick: looks like it just needs a substitution of a depends
<jpatrick> mdke: yeah, but not sure which
<mdke> jpatrick: well, kdelibs4c2a sounds like the most obvious candidate ;)
<mdke> it'll be whatever package provides the css and style stuff for kde docs
#ubuntu-doc 2008-02-23
<Rocket2DMn> i have a question on wiki pages
<Rocket2DMn> i'm from the Beginners Team on the forums, and we are wondering if it's OK for us to delete some pages in our area at https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Beginners/
<j1mc> would going people should really right because could though something
<j1mc> ^^ the most frequenly used words in this channel.  hmm.
<nixternal> wth
<nixternal> oh
<nixternal> I thought you were really drunk there for a second :p
<j1mc> :)
 * j1mc is drinking coffee
<j1mc> drinky drinks will come later tonight.
<j1mc> hi jjesse
<jjesse> hello j1mc
<j1mc> how are kubuntu docs going?  has it been very difficult trying to write up docs for KDE3.5 and KDE4?
<ubotu> New bug: #194843 in kubuntu-docs (main) "Please add linitian over-ride for native-package-with-dash-version" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/194843
<dsas> when making a patch we don't usually patch the pots do we?
<dsas> (I think I'm right in assuming they're automatically generated)
<dsas> Just in case someone responds after I leave, I'm asking because of the patch attached to bug 162446
<ubotu> Launchpad bug 162446 in ubuntu-docs "Outdated link in Programming section" [Low,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/162446
<jpatrick> dsas: hey, that's one of mine!
<dsas> jpatrick: yup.
<jpatrick> mdke ^^
<dsas> hmm, is the "-l" in "ls -l" an option or an argument? We don't refer to it consistently.
<dsas> (Personally I call it an argument)
<jpatrick> I call it an argument too
<dsas> the majority of the documentation in basic-commands.xml disagrees with us both.
<dsas> It uses option consistently except in one place. So I've gone with the flow.
<ubotu> New bug: #194886 in ubuntu-docs (main) "Hardy Heron cd repo name needs testing" [Low,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/194886
<j1mc> anyone around?  i have a couple of file that don't validate because of this: see <link linkend="add-applications">Add Applications</link>), but that approach to linking works correctly in yelp.
<j1mc> any advice?
<j1mc> (that link was present in the gutsy release)
<nixternal> is add-applications in the same document you are using the linkend?
 * j1mc looks
<j1mc> no
<nixternal> that be the reason :)
<j1mc> what type of link can i use instead?
<nixternal> if we were still doing our documentation in bookform, it would work, but in article it doesn't
<j1mc> and why does it not validate if it works in yelp?  /me confused.
<nixternal> you could use <ulink url="document.xml">foo</ulink>
<nixternal> it works in Yelp?
<nixternal> now that is odd
<j1mc> would i need to provide any kind of path data?  <ulink url="../../document.xml">foo</ulink>
<nixternal> ya
<nixternal> hrmm
<nixternal> ya
<nixternal> I was thinking of translations for a sec, but it would be fine
<j1mc> i'll give that a try.  see if it works.
<j1mc> thanks.
<nixternal> see, for Kubuntu we build out to HTML, which is stupid but we do
<j1mc> see, for Xubuntu, we don't know what the hell we're doing, which is stupid, but we do.  :)
<nixternal> lol
<j1mc> ok.  thanks.
<j1mc> i'll probably post to the ML with how i fix it, just to see if someone has another suggestion.  this problem is in several docs, so i'd hate to change it in all of them, think it works, and then find out it breaks something.
<nixternal> if you haven't yet, also on freenode is #docbook, and you can catch walsh in there sometimes to give you some pointers
<j1mc> thanks.  :)
<nixternal> he is the inventor of docbook and can be of great help too when you are stuck with some tricky stuff
<j1mc> ok
#ubuntu-doc 2008-02-24
<j1mc> nixternal: you still around?  would <ulink url="../../add-applications/C/add-applications.xml">adding applications</ulink> work?  would that cause probs with the translations?
<nixternal> still here
<nixternal> that is fine j1mc, no translation issues there
<j1mc> thanks, nixternal
<nixternal> no problemo
<sleepster> how would I know which docs need to be updated?
<sleepster> I want to write docs
<USN1520> hello, joined the mailing list (rwainscott), registered at launchpad, now what?
<j1mc> hi all... how would i do a ulink to a subsection of another document?  i'm trying to link to the musicvideosphotos.xml file, section <sect1 id="onlinemedia" status="complete">, subsection <sect2 id="onlinemedia-plugins" status="complete">
<j1mc> is that possible?
<mdke> yes, it's possible.
<mdke> you do <ulink url="path">link text</ulink>
<j1mc> i know how to link to a different document: <ulink url="../../add-applications/C/add-applications.xml">Add Applications</ulink>
<mdke> right
<j1mc> would i just add something like ... add-applications.xml#sectionname>
<mdke> yep
<j1mc> ok.  thanks.  i'll give that a try.
<mdke> but that method you are using causes problems for translations
<mdke> if you don't translate the documentation for xubuntu, it will be ok
<j1mc> crap.  i asked in here about that yesterday.
<j1mc> i was told no.
<mdke> ah, I see it
<mdke> yeah, that's wrong I'm afraid
<j1mc> that it didn't cause translation probs.
<mdke> because the url contains "C" so all translations will link to the English version, the url doesn't get translated
<j1mc> right.
<j1mc> any suggestions?
<mdke> how is the documentation viewed in xubuntu?
<j1mc> currently in firefox.
<mdke> hmm. There isn't a solution
<j1mc> if we did it in yelp, then it would work, correct?
<mdke> if you ned translations you would probably have to use sed of something to correct the urls for each language
<j1mc> there would be a fix, right?
<mdke> yelp has a workaround yeah
<j1mc> what is the yelp workaround?  an xref link of some sort... ? i think i've seen those.
<mdke> documents are registered in /usr/share/gnome/help/documentname, and then links such as <ulink type="help" url="ghelp:documentname#section"> will work
<mdke> xref is only for cross references withina  single document
<mdke> kde has a similar trick to gnome
<mdke> the only other technique would be to use some kind of entity in place of the "C", and define it for each language at the beginning of the document
<mdke> we tried that for some time but it threw up all sorts of other problems so we had to jettison it
<j1mc> ok...  i'll talk it over with the xubuntu team, and see what they think about the translation issues.  i'm not sure how much xubuntu docs are translated.
<mdke> afaik, not much at the moment :)
<mdke> at least, in gutsy there aren't any translations that I can see
<j1mc> yeah.  i'd hate to have it completely broken for translators, though.  ok.
<j1mc> but... getting docs to validate is good, too.  and the team has been resistant to more gnome-based apps.
<mdke> what did you mean by the validate part of that?
<j1mc> well, ./validate.sh xubuntu/internet/C/internet.xml is throwing up validation errors.
<mdke> I think that's a separate issue to the issue of cross-document linking
<j1mc> hrm, no... when i correct the cross-document linking, the errors go away.
<j1mc> and the new links work in yelp
<mdke> I'll explain better
<mdke> the document isn't valid because there are broken links
<mdke> you need to fix those regardless of what application you use, and regardless of how you fix them...
<j1mc> correct
<mdke> "linkend" is broken because it is supposed to refer to a section inside the same document as the link
<mdke> in that case, there is no section in the internet document with that name
<j1mc> right
<j1mc> that is how the docs were for gutsy.  :)  i'm just trying to clean them up and get them working.
<mdke> yeah
<mdke> but it's not like if you leave them as they are, they work for translators
<mdke> they are just broken for everyone ;)
<mdke> so you might as well at least fix them for english
<j1mc> right.  :)  i guess i'll go ahead with that for this release, and then talk with the team about other options for later releases.
<mdke> yes
<j1mc> we did have someone working on a doc browser similar to yelp... https://code.launchpad.net/xubuntu-documentation-browser/+branches
<mdke> interesting
<mdke> if xubuntu isn't going to be translated, we should remove the "pot" files, because they will result in the translators working away on rosetta
<mdke> and then translations not getting imported
<j1mc> hmmm...
<mdke> but if there are going to be translations, I can't think of a solution to the link issue; except for not having links
<mdke> or sed
<j1mc> i think we were able to do translations before when we just had the desktop guide.
<j1mc> it would be a shame to not have translations be possible if this version is going to be available for a longer time.
<mdke> I agree.
<mdke> well, it would be quite an easy thing to do with sed
<j1mc> i could look into it, but i'm not very fluent with sed.
<mdke> you build the html for each language, then replace each instance of "/C/" in a document with "/lang/"
<j1mc> right
<mdke> I am rubbish with sed, but I can help with that
<j1mc> if i couldn't get it to work, i'm sure i could find someone to help... yeah.
<mdke> we do something similar for help.ubuntu.com, to fix the "ghelp" links :)
<j1mc> ah, cool.
<mdke> for that, the ghelp links don't work so we need to convert them to regular links
<mdke> so, either way, there is no perfect solution
<j1mc> would the sed option allow us to keep the pot files (which i know i have to move, btw)
<mdke> sure
<mdke> I'll certainly help out with this stuff
<j1mc> ok.  thanks.
<j1mc> i'll continue with getting the links in order for now then... there are still a couple of docs that don't validate, so i want to get that fixed before i keep updating content.
<mdke> great
<mdke> nice to see xubuntu docs taking off
<mdke> do you integrate xfce docs at all?
<j1mc> no, we haven't integrated xfce docs, but i'd like to eventually.
 * mdke nods
<mdke> they are in html too iirc
<j1mc> they are shipped with xubuntu.  i suppose that i could just link to them from our own docs.
<mdke> if it fits
<j1mc> as an additional resource.  they are kind of spotty, though.  and there isn't a single xfce repo for docs.  each app has its own repo.
<j1mc> (for docs)
<mdke> i see
<mdke> is xubuntu pretty good? my computer isn't fast enough to handle ubuntu, I ought to transfer it
<j1mc> i like it, yeah.  my computer is pretty new, but i just like how it's more simple.
<mdke> I'll give it a go
<j1mc> :)
<j1mc> ok, well... thanks for your help.  i gotta get ready to head out.  have a good rest of your day.
<mdke> u2
#ubuntu-doc 2009-02-16
<tmart> Can someone explain how the ghelp url link work? Or if there is a link that will help explain?
<arvind_khadri> hi, anybody out here?
<robotgeek> nixternal: is there a task list for kubuntu docs for jaunty?
<dsas> mdke: So it had, i've reopened it now
#ubuntu-doc 2009-02-17
<mdke> dsas: thanks
<arvind_khadri> hi, what how do i mark a bug against a page...like the page doesnt exist anymore.
#ubuntu-doc 2009-02-18
<ikonia> guys what is the policy on using image (not icons) in wiki pages ? I can't find any wiki page that gives terms of use or how to use them ouside of icons
<grndslm> Heya....
<grndslm> anybody here know how I can get my Remastersys guide accepted to the Tutorials & Tips section of the forums??
<grndslm> Here it is:  http://loscompanion.com/forums/index.php?topic=6456.0
<grndslm> I've submitted it many times, but the forum never accepts it
<grndslm> =-(
#ubuntu-doc 2009-02-19
<grndslm> Anybody here know how I can get my Remastersys guide accepted to the Tutorials & Tips section of the forums??
<mdke> ikonia: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/WikiGuide/Screenshots
<mdke> ikonia: generally, any policy for the documentation wiki is found here - https://help.ubuntu.com/community/WikiGuide
<ikonia> mdke: mega, thanks
#ubuntu-doc 2009-02-20
<pop79> hi, I have an idea for ubuntu, is this the place to tell?
<mpt> pop79, probably not, unless it's about the help pages and other documentation
<pop79> nah, it is kinda about the core of the system, where should i go?
<mpt> pop79, it depends what kind of thing it is
<mpt> If it's something Ubuntu actually does wrong, you could report it as a bug
<pop79> oh, well, where is the developers area on irc?
<mpt> If it's an idea for improvement and you can fully write out how it should work, you could register a blueprint <https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu> and write a specification on the Ubuntu wiki <https://wiki.ubuntu.com/>
<pop79> iok, thanks!
<pop79> ok, :)
<mpt> If it's a not-quite-complete idea, you could try Ubuntu Brainstorm to get feedback on it <http://brainstorm.ubuntu.com/<
<mpt> heh, too slow
#ubuntu-doc 2010-02-22
<humphreybc> Ilya Haykinson is currently giving a presentation of writing style for the Ubuntu Manual Project 48 hours event, #ubuntu-classroom and #ubuntu-classroom-chat
<humphreybc> Also you can connect using Lernid
<humphreybc> "dutchie89 [~dutchie89@116.72.178.181] entered the room."
<slacker_nl> is there going to be a new summer of documentation?
<Rocket2DMn> slacker_nl, i headed those up the last 2 years
<Rocket2DMn> a guy called startcraft.man might head up this year's
<Rocket2DMn> however, any time is a good time to contribute, you dont need to wait for summer
<slacker_nl> Rocket2DMn: i'm already contributing, but if SoD is going to happen again I would like to help, that's all :)
#ubuntu-doc 2010-02-23
<lukjad86> Hi, is anyone here familiar with ksplice? I'm planning on writing an article on it and would like some documentation.
<lukjad86> Can anyone tell me what they think about my new wiki page: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ksplice
#ubuntu-doc 2010-02-26
<Flimm> Hi everyone! I'm developing a generic graphical error handler for Python, and I'm stuck at what the default error message should say.
<Flimm> Here's what I'm using now: <b>It looks like an error has occurred.</b>
<Flimm> We're terribly sorry. We didn't expect things to go wrong at this point. You might want to consider helping us out by reporting the crash.
<Flimm> But it seems too wordy and possibly too casual.
<nigelb> Flimm: is this for apport? i.e., the gui for crash reporting?
<Flimm> No, it's independent from Apport, it's meant to be used by any GTK Python app on any distro regardless of whether Apport is installed.
<Flimm> Although if Apport is installed, a report button will appear.
<nigelb> we're on the wrong channel for this (I'm not sure where either)
<Flimm> I was just wondering about the wording.
<Flimm> How about: "<b>It looks like an error has occurred.</b>\n We're terribly sorry. Could you help us fix the problem and report the crash?"
#ubuntu-doc 2010-02-27
<ehsun7b> hi
<ehsun7b> is there anybody who can help me?
<ehsun7b> I'm a developer
<philbull> (Testing IRC client)
<philbull> (test)
<jpds> philbull: Hi.
<philbull> hey
#ubuntu-doc 2010-02-28
<med> ok
#ubuntu-doc 2011-02-22
<johnny77> hello, is there someone on that I can talk about deleting a Community Documentation page?
#ubuntu-doc 2011-02-24
<kim0> hey folks, can someone please delete the attachment "ami-maverick.png" on page https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UEC/Images (it's an old version)
<abb> Hello, I just filed Bug#724383 (http://snurl.com/x86_64_installtypo) regarding a typo I found in the official documentation.  I'm a member of "Ubuntu Documentation Contributors" launchpad group; was there a better (more direct) way of fixing this, other than filing a bug?
<abb> (Ie, I didn't know if my membership in said group allowed me to somehow "edit" the official docs in some non-bug-report-related manner.)
<abb> sorry to be a pest -- just checking to see if there is anyone in the channel who could comment on my question, above, or if i should repeat it, or shut up, or, ... hehe
<jjesse> abb you have commit access to the natty branch?
<jjesse> then just push a commit
<abb> oh wow, sorry
<abb> my volume is muted, stupid laptop keeps doing that out of hibernate -- so i didn't see your comment
<abb> jjesse:  My most complex, lengthy answer to your question is: no. :)
<abb> jjesse:  no, i don't have commit access. do you have any other suggestions, or is bug-report the best way for me to contribute?
<jjesse> bug repor
#ubuntu-doc 2011-02-25
<bencer> hi all
<bencer> i would like to update the ebox page on the serverguide
<bencer> where i can find the source and how should i proceed?
<bencer> https://help.ubuntu.com/10.04/serverguide/C/ebox.html
#ubuntu-doc 2011-02-27
<stefwal> hello
<stefwal> if I have troubles with a certain page, can I discuss it here?
<stefwal> any one?
<stefwal> ubot2
<stefwal> is stil very sleepy
#ubuntu-doc 2012-02-21
<angel2> hi
<angel2> someone in?
<angel2> I'd like to know, how can I add a spanish translation of an info file to the ubuntu community
<jbicha> angel2: an info file for what?
<angel2> gprof
<angel2> it is a linux command from binutils
<angel2> I have made a Spanish tranlation of this info http://sources.redhat.com/binutils/docs-2.12/gprof.info/
<angel2> I had made a university project (a program) about that command, and I couldn't find any Spanish information as complex. So I decided to translate the best explanation I found: The info entry of gprof on March 2001
<angel2> there is any possibility to colaborate with it. I have the translation already done. I have tried to contact some spanish translator groups, but I have received no answer in an entire week
<angel2> and that's why I have come here to find some answers :p
<jbicha> angel2: I don't know a lot about translations, but I'd recommend you contact the binutils developers
<jbicha> https://www.gnu.org/software/binutils/
<angel2> thanks jbicha ;)
#ubuntu-doc 2012-02-22
<kjs> hello
#ubuntu-doc 2012-02-23
<arand> Hmm, I'm thinking of stripping quite a lot from the community/btrfs page to try to get it down to some basics, and the Ubuntu-specific info. If that a good idea you think?
<arand> I'm arguing that most of this info would be found in manual pages or on the btrfs own wiki...
#ubuntu-doc 2012-02-25
<vibhav> Is there any way I can get started with ubuntu documentation?
<vibhav> I have been editing ubuntu-manual for some time now
<jbicha> vibhav: sure, we definitely could use some help
<jbicha> there's some info on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/SystemDocumentation
<jbicha> and you can find the source at https://code.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-core-doc/ubuntu-docs/precise
<vibhav> jbicha: Which are the files I need to edit
<vibhav> I have downloaded the branch
<jbicha> vibhav: look at the ubuntu-help/C directory
<vibhav> jbicha: Thanks!
<jbicha> you can run yelp . in that directory to see the current help
<jbicha> Ctrl-L is an undocumented way to see what page you're looking at
<vibhav> Do I need to then create a new branch , push my edited stuff to it and then propose it for merging?
<jbicha> yes, you've proposed bzr branches for merging before, right?
<vibhav> I edit ubuntu-manual where anyone can push branches
<vibhav> also , what do the check_status.sh scripts do?
<vibhav> \s\status\validation
<jbicha> you can run ./check_validation.sh net-antivirus.page to make sure your page is valid Mallard syntax
<vibhav> thanks jbicha , that should be fine now
<jbicha> the Unity specific pages need the most help
<jbicha> vibhav: are you running Precise?
<vibhav> jbicha: On a Virtual Machine
<vibhav> I run oneiric
<jbicha> does Unity 3D work in your VM?
<vibhav> jbicha: I have not yet installed the addons , but they should work
<vibhav> jbicha: Unity 3d now works
#ubuntu-doc 2013-02-23
<melodie> salut
<melodie> quelqu'un pourrait relire un lisez-moi et un readme, et me dire si quelque chose n'est pas comprÃ©hensible ? Ã§a sort un peu du cadre de la doc, mais c'est le mÃªme type de besoin... si vous pouviez m'aider. :)
<melodie> http://paste.ubuntu.com/5557932/
<melodie> http://paste.ubuntu.com/5557933
<melodie> merci par avance
#ubuntu-doc 2014-02-17
<pleia2> so launchpad still has its own single sign on, it doesn't use USSO
<pleia2> you need both, separate accounts to contribute to both
<pleia2> (made a couple edits to the page reflecting this)
<knome> really?
<knome> that's a bit weird.
<knome> isn't launchpad supposed to be under the SSO (already)?
<knome>  both login.launchpad.net and login.ubuntu.com show me the "last authenticated" information
<pleia2> the same?
<knome> yes, the same
<knome> thanks for the voice of sanity
<pleia2> Launchpad account management is provided by the Ubuntu Single Sign On service
<pleia2> aha
<pleia2> but can you use your ubuntu SSO to log into launchpad?
<knome> well,
<knome> i used to only have a launchpad account
<knome> then it was converted into a ubuntu SSO account
<knome> so i don't exactly know...
<pleia2> mine's still a launchpad.net account, I use it for openstack stuff
<knome> but i would guess yes, because existing users were converted as well
<knome> how do you know that?
<pleia2> well I guess I don't if it's all under the hood stuff
<knome> heh
<knome> well i mean
<knome> how do you determine if it's still a launchpad account?
<pleia2> I use all the same api calls and stuff when authenticating
<knome> mmh, but i would imagine that's all openid stuff
<belkinsa> It's OpenID.
<belkinsa> So, LP = Ubuntu One...or to me.
<knome> https://launchpad.net/~knome still says my openid login is https://launchpad.net/~knome
<belkinsa> Ditto but for belkinsa
<pleia2> anyway, this is why I suggested testing things so we could clarify the docs, I'm still confused :)
<knome> i'm wondering if a completely new ubuntu SSO user would have to confirm they actually want a launchpad account created
<pleia2> knome: me too
<knome> that's the only thing i'm not sure about
<belkinsa> I could test that.
<knome> once that's done (if it's needed), the ubuntu SSO/LP accounts should be exactly the same thing
<knome> belkinsa, if you please could :)
<belkinsa> On it.
 * knome is interested as well
<pleia2> in my blog post about testing I said you needed accounts on both, so :)
<pleia2> this also caused confusion to a xubuntu tester
<belkinsa> Look what I got when I updated my new account: "æ¨çè´¦æ·è¯¦æå·²è¢«æåæ´æ°"
<belkinsa> Which is, "Your account details have been successfully updated".
<belkinsa> O.o
<knome> updated? :)
<belkinsa> The new one.  I needed to change my username.
<knome> pleia2, is there a way to remove ubuntu SSO accounts?
<pleia2> no idea
<belkinsa> It seems that you only need to "update" your details on LP once you get an Ubuntu One account, just like when you change e-mails.
<pleia2> but what if you don't have a LP account? the question is whether ubuntu SSO creates one
<pleia2> or if you need to sign up separately
<belkinsa> Ah, so the other way?  I can test that also.
<pleia2> both ways really, I've always told people they needed both, but apparently I have no idea
<belkinsa> Think the name "Single Log On" implies that you can log on to any of the Ubuntu sites that allow it.
<belkinsa> I was able to access the comments system of the LoCo Council's blog and comment on their last post.
<pleia2> sure, but launchpad used to run it's own openid service, so it's special
<knome> yeah, you need to enable a launchpad account
<belkinsa> Yup, as I guessed.  LP account creates a Ubuntu One account.
<knome> i'm not sure if it's happening the other way.
<belkinsa> "Launchpad:All content published under your launchpad user will remain public unless you deactivate your launchpad account first. "  when you delete the account.
<pleia2> so should we be telling people to sign up for both? or just lp?
<belkinsa> Other places: 'Landscape, Ubuntu wiki sites, Ubuntu Forum and AskUbuntu accounts won't be deleted, but you will lose access to those too. You should contact each team if you want to make sure each of those are eliminated too. "
<knome> i did the registration process, and i'm not sure at which point the launchpad account was created.
<belkinsa> LP = Ubuntu One.
<belkinsa> You just need to confirm your details on LP.
<pleia2> so you create an ubuntu SSO account, then go to LP and log in with the same username and password as USSO?
<belkinsa> Yes.
<pleia2> gotcha
<belkinsa> Single sign-on has it's meaning for all Ubuntu services.
<pleia2> it's just confusing because it didn't exist a couple years ago, we used to use LP to log into everything, then there was LP and USSO, now they've merged I guess, but maintain their own URLs and stuff
<belkinsa> I think they have merged but as you said maintain their URLs.
<pleia2> and it's not really obvious that you can log into LP with your Ubuntu SSO info
<knome> it's not a complete merge.
<belkinsa> Look at this list: http://i.imgur.com/tlTKZeY.png LP is on that.
<pleia2> knome: yeah, it's a bit goofy :)
<knome> so basically,
<knome> once you've set up Ubuntu SSO,
<knome> you go login with your credentials in launchpad
<belkinsa> Yes.
<knome> and it will ask you to "update your detaisl"
<belkinsa> Yup.
<knome> when you do that, a ~launchpad-user will be created
<knome> but not before that
<belkinsa> Yes.
<pleia2> you go login with your SSO credentials in launchpad
<pleia2> (just to be clear)
<knome> so signing up for USSO does *not* create a launchpad user.
<belkinsa> Yes, pleia2 has it
<knome> pleia2, yep.
<knome> however,
<knome> as i assume,
<belkinsa> More like the profile for LP
<knome> creating a launchpad account
<belkinsa> If that made any sense.
<knome> will create a ubuntu SSO account
<knome> pleia2, you know gravatar?
<pleia2> so I guess it sounds easier if we just tell people to sign up for LP
<pleia2> knome: yeah
<belkinsa> pleia2, that works.
<pleia2> (like we did tell people before I started this mess)
<knome> pleia2, think it this way: USSO is gravatar, launchpad is just a site that uses that feature
<knome> (but allows much more features with the same credentials)
<pleia2> yeah
<belkinsa> Gravatar is like everywhere.
<knome> belkinsa, that was just an analogy ;)
<belkinsa> Ah, duh...
 * belkinsa facepalms
<knome> and by the way
<knome> to be able to create a launchpad account
<pleia2> USSO also slurps info from launchpad, which is clever
<knome> (at least if you first created a USSO account)
<knome> you need to verify your email address
<belkinsa> No for both.
<knome> which is probably valuable information
<knome> well you only need to verify once
<knome> because you verify your account to USSO
<belkinsa> Yup, just once.
<knome> whatever the URL was where you verified
<knome> but to use USSO itself... you don't need to verify
<knome> afaiui
<belkinsa> Right, the place you signed up first.
<belkinsa> afaiui?
<pleia2> as far as I understand it
<belkinsa> Ah.
<knome> belkinsa, doesn't matter
<knome> what i'm saying,
<knome> it looks like you only need to verify if you want to create the launchpad account
<belkinsa> Ah.
<knome> though it might be the same for all services that wishes to use the SSO login
<belkinsa> Then you have to verify to the site that you want to log in before getting back to the page that you were on.
<belkinsa> Minus the wiki, it seems to take you back to the home page of the wiki,
<knome> hmm...
<knome> i should start to use "Usso Test" as my italian online igcognito name
<knome> https://launchpad.net/~ussotest
<belkinsa> I used Barsook for testing but I deleted that account already.
<knome> well i was too hasty.
<knome> that was left...
<knome> https://launchpad.net/~ussotest2
<knome> i actually created two... O:(
<knome> O:) too
<belkinsa> I had a belkinsa-i
<belkinsa> Anyways, should this be fixed on the page?
<knome> i would say the best way for new users is to create a launchpad account directly (unless they have ubuntu SSO, in which case they should be told to login to LP with those creds)
<knome> and for those who don't have either, mention that creating a LP account actually creates an SSO account as well.
 * pleia2 nods
<belkinsa> Alright, on it.
<pleia2> thanks knome and belkinsa :)
<belkinsa> Not a problem.
<belkinsa> Thanks knome for stepping up to the plate.
<knome> no problem
<knome> it's actually useful to know how it's done.
<belkinsa> Agreed.
<belkinsa> And you scored a homerun.  ;)
<knome> even if it means some extra LP accounts... :P
<knome> hah ;)
<belkinsa> Done.
<belkinsa> And made a small change.
<knome> we actually didn't confirm if editing the wiki needs a LP account, or a ubuntu SSO account
<knome> belkinsa, or did you? :)
<belkinsa> Crap.
<knome> it's a minor detail, but...
<belkinsa> I'm assuming either since it's all linked to SSO.
<knome> either meaning, SSO
<knome> because SSO is the central account
<belkinsa> That.
<knome> it allows you to login to launchpad
<knome> and it always allows you to login to wiki (supposedly)
<belkinsa> Yes.  That's what I'm assuming.
<knome> but the wiki and launchpad accounts are not actually linked in any way
<knome> except that they are linked to the same ubuntu sso account
 * knome goes poking the wikipage
<belkinsa> How did someone forget to change this page when it happened?  How sad.
<knome> the WikiGuide pages aren't high traffic
<belkinsa> Ah.
<knome> page edited
<belkinsa> Which one
<belkinsa> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/WikiGuide/Registration?
<knome> that
<belkinsa> Nevermind, I see the changes and why did I not do that.
<knome> :)
<belkinsa> But should we say something about other accesses?
<belkinsa> I mean access to other services.
<knome> i guess not
<knome> because we're not telling them to create a LP account
<knome> so we don't need to tell them "btw, you also have a Ubuntu One account"
<belkinsa> RIght.
<knome> pleia2, also, ping, it's called "Ubuntu One account" now
<knome> i guess the one last thing to check is that if the wiki editing works without a LP account
<knome> belkinsa, want to test that?
<pleia2> knome: makes my brain hurt
<knome> pleia2, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M68GeL8PafE
<belkinsa> I hate to say this but no, I deleted my account but you said that you have a spare LP account test with.
<knome> i don't, but i don't mind recreating one :)
<knome> just a sec.
<belkinsa> Oh
<pleia2> knome: omg, that's one of my favorite skits!
<pleia2> it will have to come out
<pleia2> out? of my head?
<knome> hehe
<knome> the ending is the best
<belkinsa> That made my day.
<belkinsa> Thanks.
<knome> now, could they please log me in to the community wiki
<pleia2> no
<knome> seems to take forever.
<belkinsa> I have some issues some times with that.
<knome> oh yes.
<knome> i'm logged in
<knome> with no launchpad account
<pleia2> winner
<knome> which is silly
<belkinsa> So no go?
<knome> well yes go.
<belkinsa> Ah, misunderstood you.
<knome> wait
<knome> i'm logged in...
<knome> but i can't seem to be able to edit pages
<belkinsa> You need to log in again
<pleia2> refresh 14 times or so
<knome> haha.
<pleia2> caches get wonky
<belkinsa> Did it take you back to the home page
<knome> no, i'm logged in
<knome> the banner says "Logout"
<knome> but the other banner doesn't say "Edit"
<knome> it says "Immutable page"
<belkinsa> Cache issue as pleia2 said.
<knome> doubt so
<belkinsa> I even said that in my outline.
<pleia2> it's a pretty common thing for people to encounter
<knome> pleia2, i know, i encounter it as well
<pleia2> usually if they log in with another browser it's ok
<knome> well here's the thing
<knome> when i log in to this wiki with my real account
<knome> it wants information from my account
<knome> and it needs my username as well
<knome> now, with this new account
<knome> i don't have a username
<pleia2> ah, no lp so no username
<knome> yep.
<belkinsa> Ah.
<knome> so apparently that's why i can't edit.
<pleia2> so we do need to tell people to get a lp account
<knome> so there *is* a connection with these two
<knome> it's a ... weird connection
<belkinsa> D'oh.  That's where the username is coming from!
<knome> if i ever built a centralized login service, i wouldn't require users to have registered to another service with it to be able to work with another
<knome> so yes, we will basically need to tell people to get LP accounts
<knome> which is sane in any case
<belkinsa> Agreed
<knome> boo
<belkinsa> Well, thanks for everything.  It's bed time for me
<knome> belkinsa, nighty :)
<knome> pleia2, ping, see the page now, should be as complete as it gets
<knome> well, one can add information on "how do i check if i have a X account"
 * pleia2 thumbs up
<knome> i feel like i need to write a blog article on this >__<
<pleia2> yes, do it
<pleia2> we did all that work!
<pleia2> (you two did, I watched)
<knome> haha
<knome> i will
<knome> just not today
<knome> well, maybe today
<knome> but not... before i sleep :P
<belkinsa> knome, ping.
<knome> belkinsa, pong
<belkinsa> Question about the @ubuntu.com e-mail, can users use to send e-mails?
<knome> belkinsa, there is no mailbox for those, so not really
<belkinsa> Well, I know there is a way...with tricking your mail service.
<belkinsa> But not really worth doing.
<knome> yep
<belkinsa> My @ubuntusense.com e-mail has no box but I have it that I said that I said.
<shaunm_> belkinsa: you can configure your mail client to use your @ubuntu.com as the From field without actually using an ubunut.com SMTP server
<shaunm_> I do it with my @gnome.org address
<belkinsa> I done that but I can't seem to send via Thunderbird.
#ubuntu-doc 2014-02-18
<ikonia> is there a standard directory/url structure for the official wiki.ubuntu.com docs, eg: $version/$section/$page,
<knome> eagles0513875_, so... had time to do the wiki modifications yet?
<GunnarHj> I just invalidated bug 1244123 together with a comment. It's not obvious, though, that I handled the bug the way I should have done. What do others think?
<ubot2`> Launchpad bug 1244123 in ubuntu-docs (Ubuntu) "MountWindowsSharesPermanently wiki entry update with option _netdev usage " [Undecided,Invalid] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1244123
<knome> looks like it is indeed invalid against the ubuntu-docs package, but is there anything else to file bugs against?
<GunnarHj> knome: Not that I know of.
<GunnarHj> knome: And the big question is: Do we want to have a place where people can file bugs about the help wiki content? Personally I'd say know. We wouldn't have the resources to manage it. But I know that my view may be controversial, so that's why I'm here. ;-)
<knome> yep
<knome> well, if there was a place... maybe it could also provide a list of things people know they can start working on
<GunnarHj> s/know/no/
<GunnarHj> Yeah, that might be a way to deal with it...
<knome> though we do have tagging already, so maybe you should have marked that as triaged, add a tag and a comment, and in that comment, note anybody who fixes to close LP #...
<knome> but ubuntu-docs isn't the right package to report against really
<GunnarHj> Errr..
<GunnarHj> The question is what kind of commitment we have wrt the help wiki.
<GunnarHj> But I haven't worked with it much. Possibly this has been discussed previously?
<knome> if somebody has been motivated enough to file a bug about an issue (even if that wasn't the encouraged method), we should take care that is noted somewhere where contributors to the wiki can see it
<knome> i have no idea, haven't been around too long either really
<GunnarHj> knome: I can buy that - to encourage the person who tries to help.
<GunnarHj> knome: While not generally encouraging people to file wiki bugs.
<knome> or, to respect the tiny bit of work they did enough to maybe motivate who might be able to edit the wiki
<knome> +others
<knome> yep, that's true
<GunnarHj> I have no firm opinion, really. Just wanted to pass it on to those of you who work with the help wiki.
#ubuntu-doc 2014-02-19
<belkinsa> GunnarHj, ping.
<GunnarHj> Hi belkinsa!
<GunnarHj> belkinsa: ?
<belkinsa> Sorry, I went afk for a bit.
<belkinsa> RE: Unsure of the work flow, I agree with you that that there something lacking with the work flow where users like that reporter reports bugs on the wiki.
<belkinsa> of the wiki*
<belkinsa> Is this something that balloons's action from the last vUDS deals with or something different?
<GunnarHj> belkinsa: I didn't participate on the vUDS, so can't tell.
<belkinsa> Oh.
<balloons> hey belkinsa.. yea, I agreed to have a go through the docs. I tried around vUDS timeframe but haven't tried to submit anything yet this cycle. It's about that time with freezes here :-)
<belkinsa> I see.  I'm still willing to help you with the work.
<knome> balloons, oh there too?! (:
<GunnarHj> belkinsa, balloons: My statement on the bug "Due to the nature of the community help wiki, you can't request changes to it in the form of bug reports." may or may not be appropriate.
<belkinsa> It's appropraite and have it linked to the wikiGuide page will work.
<GunnarHj> belkinsa: Ok, glad you agree.
<knome> agree with that as well
<belkinsa> It's the most logal thing to do
<GunnarHj> So in other words it sounds as if we are agreed that we don't encourage people to submit bugs about findings in the community help wiki. But they should rather fix the issues themselves.
<belkinsa> Yes, but if they have a question, they should e-mail the List.
<GunnarHj> belkinsa: Sure, the list is always a mean for communication.
<balloons> I would favor action (aka, fixing it) over bug reports
<GunnarHj> belkinsa: As is this room, btw.
 * balloons waves to knome
 * balloons ducks back out to work
<balloons> belkinsa: you are @ scale right?
<belkinsa> As in the expo?
<knome> balloons, heh, have fun with work ;)
<balloons> belkinsa: yes
<belkinsa> Nope, at home.
<balloons> ohh.. :-)
#ubuntu-doc 2014-02-20
<pwnguin> who do i need to bribe with drinks to explain how ubuntu scales their moinmoin wiki?
<belkinsa> Whut?
<pwnguin> wiki.ubuntu.com uses moinmoin, right?
<belkinsa> Yes, but a older version
<pwnguin> i'm having a wealth of problems with wiki.ros.org
<pwnguin> and i'm looking for other people running large moin instances =)
<belkinsa> ubuntu is but Canonical IS is the maintainer of the wiki.
<pwnguin> i know this
<belkinsa> Okay, just checking
<pwnguin> I have a lapsed membership from like 2008
#ubuntu-doc 2014-02-23
<knome> http://open.knome.fi/2014/02/23/logging-in-with-ubuntu-one/
<belkinsa> knome, awesome job and thanks for doing it.
<belkinsa> knome, mind if I use that link in my lesson on March 2?
<knome> belkinsa, not at all
<belkinsa> Thanks.
#ubuntu-doc 2015-02-16
<imnichol> What's the proper status for a bug if I'm unable to reproduce it?
<imnichol> In this case it's lp://1393784
<imnichol> Bug 1393784
<pmatulis> imnichol: if you want to be nice mention you will invalidate it soon unless any more information is forthcoming
<imnichol> pmatulis, ok thanks
#ubuntu-doc 2015-02-19
<dsmythies> GunnarHj, hannie: I had a difficult time keeping up in the CC catch up meeting. Got lost there at one point.
<GunnarHj> dsmythies: Yeah, many balls in the air concurrently...
<GunnarHj> dsmythies: Are you willing to post the links on the list? I noticed that wxl explicitly asked about the instructions on manual formating also. Not sure if there is much about that.
<dsmythies> GunnarHj: I can do it. The list address was given in the meeting I think. I'll find it. Yes, I don't think any wiki page goes into detail on formatting, but rather refers to other,external resources.
<GunnarHj> dsmythies: That's how I remember it too. Thanks, btw!
<dsmythies> GunnarHj: The report I ended up posting was very reduced from what I originally wrote. I struggled for many hours with it. In the end I decided I was just complaining, without a clear path for suggested changes / improvements. I have a rule, O.K. to complain, but only if you also propose a solution.
<dsmythies> GunnarHj: And on the bright side: I totally forgot to bring up the new launchpad servers and that the so very very very annoying timeout issue seems to be solved.
<GunnarHj> dsmythies: Only complaining if you have proper ideas is a good approach. As regards the new servers: Yes, it seems to work very good. I'm sure they are already aware that people appreciate it.
<dsmythies> GunnarHj: I sent the e-mail. However, since I am not subscribed to their list, it awaits moderator approval.
<GunnarHj> dsmythies: Ah, ok.
<dsmythies> GunnarHj: Oh. it got moderator approval a few hours ago. So action item done.
<GunnarHj> dsmythies: Great follow-up message, Doug!
<GunnarHj> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-community-team/2015-February/000417.html
<dsmythies> GunnarHj: Thanks.
#ubuntu-doc 2015-02-22
<imnichol> Anyone who knows anything about bzr, I've got an issue with a fix to the serverguide
<dsmythies> imnichol: I did not see your post until now. Note sure what time zone you are in, but suspect it is late for you. I do see am MP from you, so assume you got it sorted out. "bzr diff" is incredibly useful, as is "bsr status".
<dsmythies> imnichol: Oh, I see UTC-6. I am in UTC-8.
<imnichol> Hey dsmythies, if you check the comment on the MP, you'll see an explanation of what went wrong.
<dsmythies> imnichol: I did. I hope to get to your MP in detail today, but it looks good. By the way, did you know we are trying to do an arbitrary string freeze for both 14.04 and 12.04 serverguides to do point releases? It was supposed to be last Thursday, but still trying to include stuff.
<dsmythies> imnichol: We need to wrap it up so the translators have time before 15.04 load.
<imnichol> dsmythies, must have missed that email, sorry!
<dsmythies> imnichol: There wasn't an e-mail. It was just Peter and I on this IRC channel about a week ago Thursday.
<imnichol> dsmythies, well I guess that would explain why I didn't get it.
<imnichol> So what should I do now that we're in a string freeze?
<dsmythies> imnichol: We are not yet in string freeze. I keep slipping the date, as it was arbitrary between Peter and I anyhow. There is a big MP that we would like to include, but it needs fixing. I don't know if I should fix it myself or not becuase I never heard back when I offered.
<imnichol> What is it? out of curiosity
<dsmythies> imnichol: Just making you aware so we can try to include what you are workign on.
<dsmythies> https://code.launchpad.net/~markthomas/serverguide/serverguide-review-7.5/+merge/249727
<dsmythies> imnichol: Once we do decide we are frozen, then any MPs will be held until after the translation cycle and after the publication of the guides on help.ubuntu.com.
<imnichol> Sounds good
<imnichol> Wish I could help with that MP, it's a bit too much for my workload right now
<imnichol> In fact, I've got to go do some weekly cleaning
<imnichol> Take care
<dsmythies> imnichol: Just F.Y.I. there is a link to all active MP on the serveruide focus page: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/SystemDocumentation/UbuntuServerGuide
<dsmythies> Yes, I have chores to get to also.
#ubuntu-doc 2016-02-22
<pmatulis> works for me
<knome> seems to be back up to me too now
<pmatulis> there was a big reboot carnival going on due to a USN. might be related
<pmatulis> http://www.ubuntu.com/usn/usn-2900-1/
#ubuntu-doc 2016-02-23
<piercedwater> hello
<piercedwater> im trying to setup bazaar gui to checkout docs to begin helping. anyone available to help?
<knome> don't know the GUIs, but the command-line stuff isn't really hard either
<knome> (especially as long as you can avoid merges)
<knome> or if you need help with general terminology, i can likely help with that too
<knome> piercedwater, ^
<piercedwater> ah ok,im going to setup cli real quick then go from there
<piercedwater> thanks! :)
#ubuntu-doc 2016-02-24
<arecknag> Hi there, i found a dead link on an immutable page, who do I tell this?
<belkinsa> arecknag, ubuntu-doc@lists.ubuntu.com at the moment since the wiki is locked down.
<arecknag> belkinsa thank you
<belkinsa> Not a problem.
#ubuntu-doc 2016-02-27
<mhall119> hi everyone, I just wanted to check in and make sure the spam problems that caused help.ubuntu.com/community/ to get locked down last month have not returned since it was re-opened
<mhall119> is everything back to normal now?
<knome> mhall119, looks like so; https://help.ubuntu.com/community/RecentChanges?max_days=30
<mhall119> glad to hear it :)
#ubuntu-doc 2017-02-22
<nixnix> Hi, does someone here have rights for the wiki content? I have an update as Diff for  https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Internet/ConnectionSharing?action=refresh https://paste.ubuntu.com/24049216/
<nixnix> I did not find the recent 14/16LTS there, so I wrote something. Especially gnome3/U16 is a bit different, could not find how it should be done there.
<knome> done.
<nixnix> Wow, thanks  for the quick insertion :)
<knome> np
