#ubuntustudio-devel 2011-01-24
<ckontros> yo
<scott-work> doh, ckontros left already
<scott-work> hi quadrispro 
<quadrispro> hi scott-work !
<quadrispro> falktx, I'm starting to work on ladish
<falktx> quadrispro: nice!
<scott-work> ailo, holstein, paultag: i made a blueprint for the kernel check/update : https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntustudio-controls/+spec/update-and-add-functionality-in-ubuntustudio-controls
<falktx> quadrispro: did you check my package or are you starting from scratch
<falktx> ?
<scott-work> i based it under ubuntustudio-controls because that seemed to make sense, but it doesn't have to stay there if it is better to go somewhere else
<scott-work> quadrispro: nice!
<quadrispro> falktx, huh, do you have a package? i've been starting from the scratch
<quadrispro> scott-work, yes, hope to upload it to experimental soon
<falktx> quadrispro: havent I told you? it's on REVU
<falktx> quadrispro: most of the stuff is ready, maybe the copyright needs update
<falktx> quadrispro: just make sure you got the latest ladish release ;)
<quadrispro> I see a final 0.3 release, is it the right one?
<falktx> quadrispro: yes
<falktx> quadrispro: the package on REVU is an old release though
<falktx> but it will work with final 0.3
<quadrispro> ok
<holstein> scott-work: im looking at the wishlist
<holstein> about the codecs
<holstein> is that something that studio needs to answer?
<holstein> ive seen that before in #ubuntustudio
<falktx> quadrispro: btw, ladish depends on laditools
<scott-work> holstein: i'm not sure what you are asking
<holstein> "i couldnt play mp3's in ubuntu, so i installed ubuntustudio"
<quadrispro> falktx, you call it, what is laditools?
<falktx> quadrispro: ladish tools... hm..
<holstein> do we need to provide more than vanilla ubuntu in that regard
<falktx> quadrispro: you'll have to package it too. but please use the version in ladish tarball 
<holstein> i like the way the new installer for vanilla buntu prompts for mp3 codec
<scott-work> holstein: i think during the new installs you have the option to add "third party applications" 
<scott-work> heh
<holstein> we wont get that though right?
<quadrispro> falktx, ok, I've reach'd that :) ah ok, so can I build the laditools binary from the ladish tarball?
<holstein> with the alternate installer?
 * quadrispro going to have dinner
<falktx> quadrispro: yes, that will work fine
<scott-work> oh, i think i see what you are asking
<holstein> if/when we move to a live CD and installer
<holstein> that would be addressed
<holstein> as a user, i usually just install ubuntu-restricted-extras
<scott-work> holstein: to be honest, i don't think the best vector is to have this run or ask anything during the installation
<holstein> but i think that is a mis-conception about ubuntustduio
<paultag> scott-work: great, thanks :)
<holstein> what is it for?
<scott-work> holstein: i've talked to ailo about it, i think the best thing is to have a script run at a consitent event (say after login) to check the kernel and do the rest
<holstein> if i have a large mp3 collection, and i cant play them in ubuntu
<holstein> maybe i need ubuntustdudio
<holstein> and that is not the case
<paultag> scott-work: is someone from kernel on it? ( since it's so easy now? )
<holstein> and i dont think it should be
<holstein> BUT thats easy enough to address
<ailo> I still think the best would be to include a 3rd party option during installation, if possible
<ailo> Like Ubuntu does with mp3
<scott-work> paultag: not directly, but we are considering all of the kernels we would isntall to be from PPA
<paultag> scott-work: OK
<ailo> scott-work: So noone is working on the -controls as such?
<scott-work> ailo: i agree that it would be nice to isntall 3rd party stuff during installation but i'm not sure it's possible with alternate install currently
<quadrispro> falktx, mmh... 0.3 release tarball seems not to have laditools
<scott-work> ailo: that is correct, no one is working on -controls currently
<holstein> the alternate install needs to be ditched
<falktx> quadrispro: use the "complete/full" tarball
<falktx> quadrispro: there are 2
<scott-work> holstein: it's a decision based on available know-how and manpower
<holstein> that would address the mp3 playback issue
<quadrispro> falktx, is there any laditools tarball ready?
<holstein> and https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntustudio/+bug/695892
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 695892 in Ubuntu Studio "no live CD for ubuntustudio" [Wishlist,New]
<falktx> quadrispro: yes, but old
<holstein> and https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntustudio/+bug/697774
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 697774 in Ubuntu Studio "cant install ubuntustudio from USB stick" [Undecided,New]
<ailo> scottL: If we use -controls with my script, it would make sence to turn it all into python script. I've been learning about this Pythin gui stuff lately
<falktx> quadrispro: the one in ladish is known to work, so it's better to use it
<holstein> scott-work: what do we need?
<holstein> how can i make that happen?
<holstein> thats something i would like to see before 12.04
<quadrispro> falktx, so.. upstream's website, project summary pages... 
<quadrispro> falktx, where I can find more information?
<falktx> quadrispro: about laditools ?
<ailo> holstein: Did you decide on a meeting?
<quadrispro> yes
<falktx> quadrispro: http://marcochapeau.org/software/laditools
<quadrispro> falktx, I see a tarball, is it obsolete?
<falktx> quadrispro: you can also check #ladi and talk to nedko (he's the author of ladish)
<falktx> quadrispro: it's pre-compiled!
<holstein> ailo: not yet
<quadrispro> oh no, that's not good
<quadrispro> falktx, I don't have time now, could you please ask nedko to publish a separate tarball?
<scott-work> holstein: i'm not really sure what is involved in making a live-cd, the best thing i can think of is to start bugging other flavours, xubuntu perhaps, and find someone who knows what is involved
<quadrispro> ok, the dinner is ready
<quadrispro> see you later
<falktx> quadrispro: sure
<scott-work> ailo: cool about the python, i tried reading about it but since i never used it i really didn't learn and retain anything
<holstein> scott-work: is it a matter of switching packages?
<holstein> paultag: would you know about this?
<holstein> falktx has done it
<ailo> scott-work: I'll try have something ready by the end of the week. 
<scott-work> holstein:  but remember, falktx did it on his computer, not in ubuntu's automatied buildd system
<holstein> yeah, but we know its possible
<scott-work> ailo: cool, does this include any GUI stuff as well?
<holstein> it'll be DVD sized
<holstein> but thats not a problem
<ailo> scott-work: I'm thinking of making the same sort of -controls as before. 
 * falktx loves when people talk about me
<scott-work> holstein: right, it certainly is possible, but i think using falktx as a barometer of what is possible is probably not a good choice, he doesn't have to work within the ubuntu framework
<holstein> true
<scott-work> ailo: absolutely, i think that would be the easist
<holstein> i joined #ubuntu-installer
<holstein> i'll start there
<holstein> and see what i find
<holstein> scott-work: and keep you informed :)
<scott-work> holstein: you might also talk to someone in #xubuntu and see if you can find the guy who adjusts xubuntu for the live cd, since xubuntu and ubuntustudio are both derivatives
<falktx> quadrispro: nedko says to use a git commit of laditools - http://repo.or.cz/w/laditools.git
<scott-work> holstein: cool :)
<scott-work> blender gets a new UI:  http://lxnews.org/2011/01/24/blender-gets-a-ui-refresh/
<scott-work> that's awesome
<scott-work> oh, and if anyone is interested in authoring DVD's, i found a new application in the repositories:  dvd-styler
<scott-work> it's a cross platform program what works better than everything in the repositories in my opinion:  http://www.dvdstyler.de/
<scott-work> the only one that came close was bombono, but dvd-styler handled menus much, much better
<falktx> scott-work: qdvdauthor is the best tool for me
<scott-work> falktx: qdvdauthor is no longer in the repos for natty :(
<falktx> scott-work: qt3 ?
<scott-work> i had included it in the seeds for natty and when they removed qdvdauthor we started getting emails about packages with uninstallable libraries
<falktx> no way!
<scott-work> falktx: the only thing i saw was in the change log and it said that qdvdauthor was "obsolete"
<falktx> ...no comment
<falktx> this people is crazy
<scott-work> falktx: https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/qdvdauthor/+changelog
<scott-work> deleted in natty: reason (obsolete)
<falktx> can i contest?
<scott-work> i'm really excited about the new blender UI :)
<scott-work> falktx: i have no idea to be honest
<falktx> from webpage "Last updated Jan 10'th 2010 "
<falktx> it's not obsolete!
<scott-work> i hope to have the diff for the plymouth theme uploaded tonight or tomorrow night :)
<falktx> they are even starting to make a FLOSS manual for it!
<scott-work> falktx: you might also check out dvd-styler http://www.dvdstyler.de/ or bombono http://www.bombono.org/cgi-bin/wiki/ as well
<falktx> scott-work: it was my tool for my school project 4 months ago!
<falktx> scott-work: i made some videos/transition in kdenlive, then the stuff in qdvdauthor, it was a great dvd
<falktx> scott-work: I'll open a bug just to request qdvdauthor again... :)
<scott-work> falktx: i tried openshot to edit and make a dvd, the editing went well but the authoring didn't work so well
<scott-work> but then again, it was making a .dvd file while i'm not really sure what it is (i assumed it was to be burned to dvd)
<scott-work> falktx: lol
<scott-work> re: request qdvdauthor again
<scott-work> i like blender for editing mainly, because it really is powerful and it can read just about EVERY video format extant
<scott-work> but i'll be using dvd-styler for authoring from now on
<falktx> scott-work: blender2.5 now support jack audio too!
<falktx> scott-work: i have it in the new team PPAs
<falktx> just try it!
<scott-work> falktx: yeah, i saw that, that's really cool
<scott-work> but i admit that i don't really know what i would stream into blender from jack
 * falktx leaves quietly
<scott-work> wonder why falktx leaft quitely?
#ubuntustudio-devel 2011-01-25
<ScottL> hi troy_s
<troy_s> Greets Scott
<ScottL> troy_s, i saw a post about blender's new UI.  looks good!
<troy_s> I was just going to send you a link.
<ScottL> heh
<troy_s> Which post?
<ScottL> it's one that fab from linux outlaws is posting, hold on
<troy_s> This project needs some love... Maybe someone here can package it. The project is a fork of a dead project and the fellow looks like he might want to get it debified etc.
<troy_s> ScottL: http://sourceforge.net/projects/insight3dng/develop
<troy_s> Very valuable software if it can grow some more... that means a little more attention.
<ScottL> it's from lxnews.org
<troy_s> Blender 2.5x has been working for ages.
<ScottL> http://lxnews.org/2011/01/24/blender-gets-a-ui-refresh/
<troy_s> I did the last music video in it.
<ScottL> troy_s, that project is for editing video?
<troy_s> ScottL: It is for generating what is known as structure from motion. Point clouds.
<troy_s> ScottL: Might not seem obvious as to what it is good for at first, but the implications are pretty broad. 
<troy_s> ScottL: You can generate point clouds from a series of images. From that you can remap the images back onto the point clouds - generating a panorama as an example, from distinct and different vantages.
<troy_s> ScottL: You can also generate 3D geometry from the point cloud. You could use it to create a 3D model for visual effects work etc.
<ScottL> troy_s, is that how they do that stop motion, 3d fly around view in movies like the matrix?
<troy_s> ScottL: Not quite, but heading down a similar path yes.
<troy_s> ScottL: You could certainly achieve something akin to that with a little elbow grease I'd think... and some hardware - namely a few cameras chained.
<ScottL> troy_s, i'll point quadrispro at it, he's on the debian multimedia team and will probably eat it up, get it into debian and then sync with ubuntu
<troy_s> It could use some love and attention. Based on OpenCV
<ScottL> well, i believe quadrispro likes a challenge :)
<ScottL> TheMuso, i'm updating the seeds for the qdvdauthor issue
<ScottL> TheMuso, shall i follow the usual routine: make a bug, attach the diff, subscribe you, pm you ?
<ScottL> TheMuso, i should also have a diff for the plymouth package by tomorrow
<TheMuso> ScottL: Just let me know when you have updated the seeds, and I am happy to update the meta package, that is unless you want to do it yourself.
<ScottL> TheMuso, normally i would like to gain more experience in such matters, but there's lots of stuff i need to do so i would appreciate if you would do it :)
<TheMuso> No problem, let me know once the seeds are done.
<ScottL> TheMuso, i have already push back to the seeds and was running ./update currently
<TheMuso> Ok will go ahead and do it now.
<ScottL> TheMuso, before you get going on it i have a question
<TheMuso> Sure.
<ScottL> brasero is included in the desktop file as (brasero)
<ScottL> that means its included but not installed, correct?
<TheMuso> Its included and installed.
<ScottL> TheMuso, i included it anyway in the video file to support the work flow of dvd authoring
<TheMuso> Ok.
<ScottL> that's redundant then, take it out if necessary
<TheMuso> Ok
<ScottL> TheMuso, that was my only concern currently with that package :)
<ScottL> thank you
<TheMuso> right
<TheMuso> Actually, no we will leave it there, in case a user deides to install -video and they are using another desktop etc.
<TheMuso> user decides even
<ScottL> TheMuso, hey, that's good thinking :)
<ScottL> TheMuso, after i get the diff for the plymouth package i'm going to reinstall natty and check my gnome-classic xsession fix one more time
<TheMuso> Ok cool.
<ScottL> TheMuso, then i hope to either have a diff or a dedicated setup to have didrocks help me with :P
<TheMuso> ok cool.
<ScottL> troy_s, after i take care of the things i just mentioned i'm going to start a few smaller blog posts and do a podcast
<ScottL> troy_s, some of the topics will include blender and how freaking awesome it is :D
<ScottL> troy_s, i'm really impressed by a package called dvdstyler http://www.dvdstyler.de/ for dvd authoring
<troy_s> ScottL: Great. Linux just got DVD creation. Fantastic. Too bad it's done like dinner.
<troy_s> ScottL: Sort of uh... very 1990.
<troy_s> ;)
<ScottL> troy_s, nay, it's had it for a while, i'm impressed with how well this thing handles the menu as well
<troy_s> ScottL: Next up... you are going to tell me that there is going to be CD read write support in Linux. I can't wait.
<ScottL> troy_s, in a way it reminds me of inkscape in it's menu creation
<troy_s> ScottL: Seriously though, that is stuff that is very much gone the way of the Dodo.
<ScottL> troy_s, in mainstream?  probably so, it's all web stuff now, i agree
<troy_s> ScottL: The writing has been on the wall for a  long while. It would be better if people would create to a need like say, create a full blown musical packager with GUI for a musical artist to publish to iTunes. The Digital Booklet, the music, etc.
<troy_s> But alas...
<troy_s> Tail chasers around these parts.
<ScottL> troy_s, aye, that would also "rock", if you will allow the pun
<ScottL> troy_s, but i still think there are those who would like to make dvd's easily and well to send to grandma or mom and dad
<troy_s> erm...
<ScottL> what?
<troy_s> DVDs are pretty much done.
<troy_s> It's over and done with.
<ScottL> yes, but grandma isn't savy, and maybe mom and dad live in the country and only have dial up
<ScottL> all they can do is watch dvd's if they want up to date videos of grandkids and great-grandkids
<troy_s> ScottL: Fictional or real people? Because I can justify just about any use case anywhere. It is the folly of personas in Libre culture.
<ScottL> (true story - except my grandma's are dead though)
<ScottL> troy_s, but also i want to preach about using blender to make stuff for the web as well
<troy_s> ScottL: Hard to do. There are too many toolbags.
<troy_s> ScottL: It comes down to who is going to use a tool.
<TheMuso> ScottL: uploaded
<troy_s> ScottL: Some will complain that it doesn't follow GTK etc. (thank god) etc. etc.
<ScottL> TheMuso, woohoo, thanks :)
<troy_s> ScottL: I remember someone actually had the gall to barf up something about how if Blender didn't match GTK it wasn't going to be adopted. Cracked me up. Complete donkeyville.
<ScottL> troy_s, aye, there are many toolbags, but a few tutorials should help many people i hope
<troy_s> ScottL: Blender simply is _never_ (thank goodness) going to chase after everyone. 
<ScottL> troy_s, i found this tutorial very educational, which also left me reeling at how much more i need to learn: http://monochrome.sutic.nu/2010/06/14/video-editing-with-blender.html
<troy_s> ScottL: It is a pretty intermediate to advanced tool. It will remain that way. Much of what you will hear is typical lame mumbo jumbo from the clueless masses that tend to put mouths in front of mind.
<ScottL> troy_s, but that's what makes the geek in me happy
<troy_s> ScottL: That post also is only 2.4x
<ScottL> troy_s, it's like cracking a code...getting that green screen thing was a challenge
<ScottL> troy_s, yeah, but it helped me understand more stuff
<troy_s> ScottL: Blender has some better little details and interface bits now. It also can import full range (0-255) from DSLR footage (via an FFMPEG preset)
<ScottL> troy_s, besides the forums i don't think anyone is really is posting about using blender (at least i can't find it)
<troy_s> ScottL: The problem is that once you find Blender, you spend your time wrapping your head around a given problem to solve. Generally, once you solve it, you move along.
<ScottL> troy_s, well,that's what i've done to this point *nods head in agreement*
<troy_s> ScottL: But I'd heavily encourage you to compile from SVN
<troy_s> ScottL: It has many differences and it really isn't worth plucking along in 2.4x any longer.
<troy_s> ScottL: It is relatively painless with CMake.
<troy_s> ScottL: And worth it.
<ScottL> troy_s, i'll consider that in after february...february is RPM Challenge month
<ScottL> then i'm your man with the svn blender painless cmake adventure :D
<ScottL> troy_s, i think i have the wife interested in the T2i also :)
<troy_s> ScottL: Probably the best entry level DSLR available at the moment.
<troy_s> ScottL: Pretty much the same gamut of frame rates and such as the 7D.
<ScottL> she saw the T1 in target (for $775 bleargh!) and though it was nice, i said, "baby, that's crap!  i can get the T2i for cheaper!"
<troy_s> ScottL: The 5Dm3 might trump all hopefully. I'd love to see some 96fps or something higher... That would be most excellent.
<troy_s> ScottL: I will likely end up with three bodies.
<ScottL> so before i really rock any videos i need to really get a better than my JVC Ericho POS
<troy_s> ScottL: The main advantage of the DSLRs is the gate size - the sensor size.
<troy_s> ScottL: That is the biggest element of 'quality' - despite what some video nerds might try to tell you.
<troy_s> ScottL: The piddly dinky little sensors simply stink for aesthetic worth. You can keep your 2k or 4k resolution if it is being recorded on a 2mm sensor. It just looks completely weak.
<troy_s> ScottL: The T2i and all APS-C cameras offer a sensor that is almost 1:1 with major motion picture cameras (the 35mm standard varieties - not to be confused with Vistavision or some other larger format cameras (the 5Dm2 matches Vistavision))
<troy_s> ScottL: And that means you open up larger circles of confusion which amounts to a thinner depth of field. This tends to trigger the 'cinematic' learned responses that everyone has built up over watching a plethora of movies.
<ScottL> well, hopefully before february i can get my friend who has something comparable to the T2 to record my rock video
<ScottL> the goals is the edit it with blender and have the music and video all done by open source
<ScottL> i've more or less got the song done, just need to finish the vocals at this point
<troy_s> ScottL: If you have a youtube account, send it to me.
<troy_s> ScottL: I can't publish something quite yet thanks to some music video stations... but if you have one I'll show you something.
<ScottL> troy_s, yeah, i do, gotta find the name, don't really use it much to be honest
<troy_s> ScottL: I'd need your YouTube handle.
<ScottL> i mean i don't really use the account name, not youtube
<ScottL> troy_s, apparently it's scottalavender
<troy_s> Ok hold a second...
<ScottL> troy_s,  ScottALavender with caps, actually
<ScottL> dont' know if that matters or not
<troy_s> You have mail.
<ScottL> troy_s, very cool!  looks like a typical weekend with courtney love :P
<ScottL> did you shoot that and edit it too?
<ScottL> that shot of her looking over the shaking doll head was pretty wicked
<troy_s> ScottL: Yes. Did all of it. 
<ScottL> troy_s, all in open source too?
<troy_s> ScottL: Can't comment.
<ScottL> impressive either way
<ScottL> seeing that makes me think that starting with better footage (i.e. not shot with a $250 camcorder) is a very positive first step towards a good video
<troy_s> ScottL: Hrm... let me push something really quick. This was done ages ago.
<ScottL> watching them play the same song but live on youtube now
<troy_s> ScottL: Jeremy and an ex member are from Front Line Assembly / Delerium / Noise Unit.
<troy_s> ScottL: This one I am pushing now is of my daughter I took ages ago... when the first video DSLRs hit the market.
<troy_s> ScottL: I got an adaptor for my 24-70L lens and slapped it on a 4/3rds chip.
<troy_s> ScottL: It was literally a quickie little muck around, slap it up, and slap it together. Took all of about 10 minutes.
<troy_s> 7 mins.
<troy_s> ScottL: Gah. Well I give up. Fair use of a track and YouTube blocked it. Lame.
<ScottL> troy_s, ah, that sucks
<ScottL> TheMuso, i also subscribed you to the plymouth bug report, with which i attached a debdiff
<TheMuso> ScottL: ok thanks.
<ScottL> TheMuso, <Ricardo Montalban voice> no my friend...thank you
<TheMuso> np
<TheMuso> ScottL: What did you change in debian/plymouth-theme-ubuntustudio.postinst?
<TheMuso> I see your diff has some changes for that file, but can't easily work out what you may have changed.
<TheMuso> c
<ScottL> TheMuso, well, basically i copied what xubuntu did because what we had (which is what i copied from them previously) wasn't updating properly anymore
<TheMuso> ah ok.
<ScottL> it was only adding the theme and updating initramfs, but wasn't actually setting the theme as default
<TheMuso> right
<ScottL> i tested it on two machines of my own and ailo installed it last night (or two nights ago?) and it worked well
<TheMuso> ok cool.
<TheMuso> ScottL: I updated the bzr branch for ubuntustudio-look as well.
<ScottL> TheMuso,  in cases such as these would you rather i update the branch and not include the debdiff, do both, or do exactly as i did this time?
<TheMuso> ScottL: I think including a debdiff is good, but also update the branch, as I someone can simply pull the branch once the review is ok, and build the package from that.
<ScottL> TheMuso, copy that, will do both in the future then :)
<TheMuso> cool.
<ScottL> there's a lot of people in this room now :)  shame that almost 10% are bots :(
<TheMuso> Oh really? Thats not good.
<ScottL> well, closer to 5%  but still not good as you said
<TheMuso> ubuntulog: and ubottu I can understand, kubotu I know about..
<ScottL> i think bluebug might be a bot as well
<TheMuso> I suspect as much as well, after looking at the whois data for it.
<ScottL> just started idling in the channel and i've never seen him/her/it talk before, even when queried directly
 * TheMuso nods.
<ScottL> no email from colin this morning, thanks TheMuso !
<holstein> scott-work: ScottL 
<holstein> i asked colin about the installer switch
<holstein> the deal is, we would lose something going to a live CD
<holstein> the 'package selection'
<holstein> quite a change in the way things are currently
<holstein> personally, i think its a good chagne
<holstein> i remember staring at those options for a couple 6 or 8 installs before realzing what they really mean
<falktx> holstein: i think US needs to clear the app list first
<holstein> falktx: you mean?
<holstein> the meta-packages?
<falktx> holstein: there's a lot of apps installed by default, some are kinda useless
<falktx> holstein: yes
<holstein> falktx: if this live thing goes down
<falktx> yep
<holstein> i was thinking 11.10 or 12.4
<holstein> 12.04*
<falktx> holstein: i think it needs to be done before live-dvd
<holstein> not anytime soon
<holstein> yeah, i agree
<falktx> holstein: do you have a pic of the new plymouth theme? (i want to see it...)
<holstein> falktx: i cant find the clear pic
<holstein> i have http://www.fossmusicproject.org/public/video/plymouth.ogv
<falktx> holstein: way better than the previous one!
<falktx> seems cool, although I can see quite well
<falktx> *cant
<falktx> Natty is gonna be a good release for US
<holstein> yeah
<holstein> too bad about he kernel
<holstein> and RT
<holstein> but, we are addressing it
<scott-work> falktx: that was what we were doing with the work flows bit, cleaning out the cruft, making sure what is there supports a viable work flow and is desired
<scott-work> holstein: this will take some thought, meeting, and debate, i'm sure
<falktx> scott-work: I'll use that research for kxstudio too
<falktx> I need to release cadence first though
<scott-work> falktx: if you want to use the new plymouth theme, it's already in ubuntustudio-look-0.39
<scott-work> got updated last night :)
<falktx> holstein: scott-work: btw, I now have a midi-keyboard, nice-looking knobs and level meter in cadence source
<falktx> scott-work: yep, I think I'll backport it in the PPA, the current one is really bad...
<scott-work> falktx: i made the first one, thanks!
<scott-work> falktx: ;)
<scott-work> falktx: seriously though, i did make it but i do realize it was bad
<scott-work> falktx: no one in ubuntu studio realized that we were shifting to plymouth and we were past the freeze but we got an exception and i knocked it together over a weekend
<holstein> scott-work: we'll bring it up in the next meeting 
<falktx> scott-work: heh, you know me, I'm direct
<scott-work> holstein: but first blush thinking: we can still ship a dvd, include the packages that would be included in the selections, make a script to run first after install, and give the option THEN to users to install stuff
<holstein> scott-work: yup
<scott-work> falktx: i'm was just messing with you anyway, i made it and know it's bad, but at least it got done :P
<holstein> OR just install all the stuff
<holstein> the basics
<holstein> the audio, audio-plugins, video and graphics
<scott-work> holstein: true, but we may just rethink the whole selection stuff anyway, maybe get rid of it, you install everything, everytime
<scott-work> holstein: especially if we reduce the footprint as we did with natty, and maybe continue to do
<holstein> these are not applications that are running in the background
<holstein> we're not talking about compromising perfomance
<holstein> just using up more HD space
<holstein> and if im worried a lot obout HD space
<holstein> i'll be the kind of user that get vanilla, or smaller
<holstein> and adds what i want
<holstein> scott-work: this would address most of my current concerns
<holstein> the live CD, the look and feel of the install, the unattended install process
<falktx> scott-work: yup, my kxstudio plymouth sucks too (just a copy from ubuntu-text theme) :)
<holstein> we'll see
<falktx> holstein: US will probably need a DVD
<holstein> yeah
<holstein> live DVD*
<holstein> thats what i meant..
<holstein> gives US compatibility with the USB creator
<holstein> easy USB stick installs
<scott-work> holstein: if we keep the dvd we can always include stuff on it that is not installed, which is nice because people who have downloaded it and then take it somewhere where there isn't internet can still install all the audio apps
<holstein> scott-work: that would be the case with a live DVD though right?
<holstein> if everything gets installed out-of-the-box?
<scott-work> holstein: it could be, but doesn't have to be, we can still do some sort of minimalistic install for audio, then leave the rest on the dvd for later install without internets
<holstein> sure
<holstein> i gotta run for a bit
<holstein> lets just think it through
<holstein> see what we need
<holstein> and go from there
<holstein> maybe its not as big a deal to others
<holstein> the live medium
<holstein> i find it a serious limitation
<scott-work> we could always build a live dvd by ourselves and offer a link on the website
<scott-work> holstein: ^^^ this would all be apart from canonical and not built within the buildd system
<scott-work> holstein: which would be more what falktx currently does with kxstudio
<falktx> scott-work: I can do the ISO
<falktx> scott-work: sorry If I did not made that one I promised some time ago, internet just sucks for me
<scott-work> falktx: i understand, i would like your script when you do make the live ubuntustudio dvd
<scott-work> falktx: i'm hoping to make my own live CD (not dvd) for audio, based on ubuntu studio
<scott-work> just for fun mind you
<scott-work> and to learn
<falktx> cool
<scott-work> ailo__: do you have a firewire device?
<scott-work> holstein or ailo__: can either of you verify if enabling raw1394 still needs to be done to use a firewire device?
<scott-work> holstein: ailo__ : also,  did anyone determine if the user actually needs to be in the audio group for firewire to work?
<scott-work> doesn't the user need to be in the audio group for -rt privileges to work under JACK anyway?  even for non-firewire user?
<scott-work> TheMuso, persia, paultag: if we were updating a package, say ubuntustudio-controls, when is the latest we can update the package without freeze exception?
<scott-work> would that be feature freeze?
<scott-work> ailo__ and holstein : i found this:  https://ieee1394.wiki.kernel.org/index.php/Juju_Migration#Permissions_and_ownership_for_.2Fdev.2Ffw.2A
<paultag> heyya scott-work 
<paultag> scott-work: um, final freeze, I think
<paultag> scott-work: after that it should be RC bugs only
<paultag> scott-work: really it should have been uploaded at the beginning of the cycle
<paultag> scott-work: but I'm not sure at all. persia or TheMuso might have a better perspective
<falktx> hey quadrispro
<falktx> quadrispro: i noticed you're working on laditools
<falktx> quadrispro: I always get FTBFS when building python apps on natty, do you know anything about it?
<quadrispro> hi all
<quadrispro> hi falktx 
<quadrispro> i should take a look
<quadrispro> falktx, take a look: http://git.debian.org/?p=pkg-multimedia/laditools.git
<quadrispro> I will install the modules in a private directory
<quadrispro> it means that they won't be available to be used within other applications
<falktx> ah, that solves
<falktx> quadrispro: btw, opendesktop spec says that 'Categories=' should have a ';' at the end
<falktx> "Categories=GTK;AudioVideo" should be "Categories=GTK;AudioVideo;"
<falktx> quadrispro: ^
<quadrispro> good, fixing it now
<scott-work> quadrispro: are you staying around for about two minutes?
<scott-work> quadrispro: someone who frequents this channel told me about this application which needs to be packaged:  http://sourceforge.net/projects/insight3dng/develop
<quadrispro> hi scott-work! mmh.. I'll be back in 2 minutes, then I'll stay here
 * quadrispro will be back soon
<scott-work> quadrispro: he said it relies on open-cv
<scott-work> sure, no problem
<scott-work> ;)
<falktx> scott-work: what is it?
<scott-work> falktx: i'll copy his text
<falktx> scott-work: no need
<falktx> hehe, I read it now
<scott-work> falktx: okay :)
<falktx> scott-work: does it work?
<scott-work> falktx:  that i don't know :|
<falktx> hehe
<falktx> quadrispro: tell me when laditools is ready so I can backport it (so it builds on natty too)
<falktx> quadrispro: for ladish I've a custom package myself, to make ladish replace lash
<scott-work> heh, paultag you probably saw that i updated the blueprint and i've been working on the spec as well
<paultag> scott-work: yessir! 
<falktx> quadrispro: you're missing some control dependencies in laditools:
<falktx> python-rsvg, python-vte, python-wmdocklib, ladish
<falktx> not sure if 'python-wmdocklib' is in debian though
<scott-work> paultag: do you have a minute to talk?
<scott-work> falktx: so ladish depends on laditools, but laditools depends on ladish?
<paultag> scott-work: yessir, what's up?
<falktx> scott-work: kinda...
<falktx> scott-work: ladish should not depend on laditools, but the author is lazy making his own jack-config window
<falktx> quadrispro: for you^ , sorry scott-work
<falktx> quadrispro: you can make ladish recommend laditools only
<falktx> quadrispro: note that ladish only depends on laditools because of it's GUI (it's not a build dependency)
<falktx> quadrispro: it's possible to split ladish and gladish (the GUI) and make only the GUI recommend laditools
<persia> ScottL, You can update the package at any time: the freezes only control the *type* of update.  Post FeatureFreeze, you aren't to add any new features.  Past String Freeze, you aren't to add any new user-visible strings.  As the release proceeds, you want to consider the risk of breaking things *very* carefully when updating.
<scott-work> thank you persia :)
<falktx> quadrispro: please dont give up on ladish...
<quadrispro> i'm back
<quadrispro> but i have to go soon :(
<quadrispro> falktx, don't worry, ladish will be in experimental soon
<quadrispro> hi persia !
<persia> Hi quadrispro 
<quadrispro> scott-work, please send me a remind :)
<falktx> quadrispro: cool, many thanks
<quadrispro> falktx, python-wmdocklib is not available, I'll drop wmladi
<scott-work> quadrispro: certainly, how much later would you like it?
<quadrispro> falktx, you too, please send me a reminder with your hints
<falktx> quadrispro: I have it packaged it on my ppa - https://launchpad.net/~kxstudio-team/+archive/ppa/+sourcepub/1403747/+listing-archive-extra
<falktx> quadrispro: i'll send you an email now
<quadrispro> scott-work, whenever you want, I'll let you know as soon as possible, now getting out to have a beer
<quadrispro> falktx, same to you :)
<scott-work> quadrispro: enjoy your beer :)
<quadrispro> see you later
<holstein> scott-work: i will double check
<holstein> about groups
<holstein> i didnt need to add video group
#ubuntustudio-devel 2011-01-26
<ScottL> TheMuso, my attempt at fixing the gnome-classic xsession has failed, i will talk with didrocks tomorrow about it
<paultag> ScottL: roughing out some of the controls work -- this'll be cake
<paultag> ScottL: if I put some time into it over the weekend, I can slam it out with time to have a beer
<ScottL> paultag, awesome!  i look forward to seeing it
<paultag> ScottL: righto!
 * paultag goes back to work
<paultag> ScottL: ping?
<ScottL> paultag, pong
<paultag> ScottL: :)
<paultag> ScottL: Is there a full list of all the things you want to see on this app? I just hunted a graphic designer for this, so we can do a bit more
<paultag> ScottL: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/SettingsApp/Redux
<paultag> ScottL: I've jotted what comes to mind there
<ScottL> paultag, this is what we have, it's pretty jumbled but i was cleaning it up:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/ControlsRedesign
<paultag> ScottL: what about wild-fantisy stuff?
<ScottL> i was migrating it to there from this one:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/ReleasePlanning#Ubuntu%20Studio%20Controls
<ScottL> paultag, i hadn't really thought that far outside the box to be honest becuase i was worried about getting this much done :P
<ScottL> but i thought it might be a good place to do any config stuff for audio
<paultag> ScottL: roger. I'll cherry pick from there. doctormo and I work well together ;)
<ScottL> maybe we can brainstorm a few more ideas with holstein, ailo__ , astraljava 
<paultag> _1
<paultag> +1 *
<paultag> cheers, thanks ScottL. I'll send you updates as they happen
<ScottL> paultag, so what is doctormo doing with this?
<paultag> ailo__: I'm jacking devel on the settings stuff ;)
<paultag> ScottL: He and I will both do GTK. I'll do low(er) level code in python ( settings interfaces, etc ), while he does icons and makes everything cosmetic
<paultag> ScottL: it will let me focus on getting it done, while he bitches about how it's unusable ( until it is ;) )
<ScottL> paultag, LOL...but aye, he's good with icons and graphics
<paultag> ScottL: we're great buddies, he and I are both in Boston
<ScottL> having him help is a boon
<paultag> ScottL: we go for tea now and again
<paultag> ScottL: yeah, for sure
<ScottL> paultag, are you in a loco?
<paultag> ScottL: Yeah, -us-ohio -- I was contact until two months ago
<paultag> ScottL: I'm also on the loco-council ;)
<ScottL> i believe he's british, are you british as well, or do you just enjoy tea with a friend :)
<paultag> ScottL: he lives in Boston, MA now ;)
<paultag> which is where I'm from 
<paultag> so when I go back home, I meet up with doc-mo
<doctormo> hey ScottL
<paultag> heyya doctormo :)
<doctormo> paultag is trying to explain to me what options are needed for this new setup tool
<paultag> ScottL: we were just talking in PM, figured we'd drag you into this
<doctormo> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/SettingsApp/Redux#preview
<doctormo> But the settings as documented appear to be install time settings which should be done there. Not in an extra tool.
<paultag> doctormo: iirc one of the issues was a DVD install vs migrating an Ubuntu install via metapackages
<paultag> doctormo: you should be able to install ubuntustudo-desktop and get it, and not just have to use the DVD installer
<paultag> IIRC, that is
<doctormo> Yes, I understand that.
<paultag> k
<ScottL> hi doctormo 
 * ScottL was talking with the wife
<ScottL> doctormo, many people also start with a vanilla ubuntu install and just install what they want/need from ubuntu studio as paultag pointed out
<ScottL> oh, the package name is actually ubuntustudio-controls
<ScottL> paultag, doctormo : the extra software bit probably may not be a good thing at this time, many felt that this was a bit dangerous
<paultag> ScottL: righto. Let's remove that bit,t hen
<paultag> then *
<doctormo> ScottL: Are there controls which can/should be toggled? or is this a one way thing?
<paultag> doctormo: the rtprio / memlock need to be massaged
<paultag> doctormo: usually. but once it's set right, it's OK
<doctormo> So that's a set once, never touch again type thing?
<paultag> doctormo: if it's set right, yes. If it's set wrong ( and it locks up yoru system ) you need to tweek it
<doctormo> dangerous then eh, I take it you tweak it with a livecd?
<paultag> doctormo: I rawdog it. It's tough to cause any real huge issue
<paultag> doctormo: just reisub it
<doctormo> language I don't understand!
<paultag> (if the rtprio is set too high, it sucks all the cycles )
<paultag> doctormo: alt + sysreq + {R, E, I, S, U, B}
<paultag> doctormo: that resets your machine nicely
<paultag> doctormo: but works even with a total lock ( short of a kernel panic )
<paultag> doctormo: regardless, I see this as a userspace app, the more I think about it
<doctormo> paultag: Design wise, it's not. Unless you have further data.
<paultag> doctormo: how is it not? What if you add a user?
<paultag> doctormo: what if you want to switch from rt to lowlatency later on?
<doctormo> does rtprio need to be set for each user?
<paultag> doctormo: or change the rtprio
<paultag> doctormo: it can be, but it does not need to
<doctormo> Consider sane defaults with cli tools to control the complexities if required.
<paultag> doctormo: again, that won't work for migrating installs
<paultag> doctormo: you have to install, set up a user, apt-get install the metapackages, and you can't touch /home in packages
<doctormo> Sure it will, you can have post-inst callouts on a package attached to the meta package to do the work.
<paultag> doctormo: no, I mean, /home does not exist for packages
<paultag> doctormo: if it touches it, it's far out of spec
<doctormo> Yes you can touch home in packages... technically speaking the current user.
<paultag> doctormo: no, you can't
<paultag> doctormo: that's wildly against policy
<doctormo> Then there are a whole host of naughty debian packages.
<paultag> doctormo: no there are not
<doctormo> lol, ground control?
<paultag> doctormo: in what case does a package touch /home/user/*
<paultag> doctormo: that seriously writes stuff to /home/*/* ?
<persia> You can't touch /home in packages, because FHS says /home is OPTIONAL.
<paultag> +1 persia 
<doctormo> The installer restarts nautilus, albeit on the users say so
<paultag> doctormo: that's running a command that sends a signal
<doctormo> persia: I defer to you,
<persia> You can, if you insist, have postinsts that use getent or similar to modify things in user home directories, which is subtly different.
<paultag> doctormo: that does not touch /home
<paultag> persia: even that should be handled on the application level iirc
<persia> paultag, Depends on the package.  For something like ground control, it's better to use the install notify hook to ask the user to restart nautilus (or similar).
<persia> Use of wrappers is more common.
<paultag> persia: sure, but the app it's self will init the files in ~/
<paultag> persia: not the package
<doctormo> OK chaps, off to bed, paultag figure out what fields you need and update that wiki and note me. I'll have a crack at a mockup for you.
<paultag> doctormo: cheers, thanks
<paultag> doctormo: tea when I get back ;)
<doctormo> aye aye
<ScottL> doctormo, thank you for the help
<persia> if [ -f $HOME/.config/myapp ]; then myapp; else; cp /usr/share/myapp/config $HOME/.config/myapp; myapp; endif
<doctormo> ScottL: Of course, I still owe you some kind of wacom tool, and if it were possible to configure wacom instead of just creating a xinit script with commands in it, it'd be done ;-)
<ScottL> paultag, i'm terribly excited to see what you chaps come up with, and i know the users are excited for improvement as well
<paultag> persia: yeah, but that looks like a script that's calling myapp -- and can be run when you run the command
<persia> paultag, Depends.  Packages that have dedicated users for some reason may need to do it in postinst.  When dealing with real users, yes, better to use a wrapper (better support for later adding users, etc.)
<paultag> ScottL: :)
<paultag> persia: aye :)
<persia> Yeah, that's a wrapper script :)
<paultag> Ahhh, yes
<paultag> that's how I do it with fluxbox :)
<paultag> thanks for the help persia :)
<ScottL> hi troy_s , i talked to quadrispro about that app you mentioned needed packaging and he's interested but just asked me to remind him later as he's busy at the moment
<troy_s> ScottL: rexbron is almost there I believe.
<ScottL> troy_s, oh, that's cool then
<quadrispro> ScottL, we have a big problem with ladish's licensing
<quadrispro> persia, could you give me an opinion? http://paste.ubuntu.com/558457/
<persia> quadrispro, What is the "Academic Free License version 2.1"?
<quadrispro> persia, http://opensource2.usrbinruby.net/licenses/afl-2.1.php
<persia> And why do you mention "* This file contains D-Bus methods helpers"?  Are those under separate license?
<quadrispro> persia, it is solved, upstream meant to cover some portions of the code by dual-licensing
<quadrispro> persia, libdus is dual-licensed, too
<persia> OK.  So, here's my summary recommendations:
 * quadrispro hasn't noticed it before, really
<quadrispro> http://packages.debian.org/changelogs/pool/main/d/dbus/current/copyright
<persia> 1) You should identify what files are covered by which licenses
<quadrispro> done
<persia> 2) You should make clear that dual-licensed code is dual-licensed
<persia> 3) You should include the *complete* text of afl-2.1, as it is not in /usr/share/common-licenses/
<quadrispro> 2. reported upstream, and he says that it will be clearly stated in the next release
<quadrispro> 3. done
<persia> For 2) if you have that from upstream, and you know which files are licensed how, you can just report that in debian/copyright, rather than waiting for the next release (unless it's very soon)
<quadrispro> I'd prefer to have a public statement which clarifies that. Upstream seems very collaborative, he's going to publish a small note on the website in the next few hours, too
<persia> Ah, the small note will be hugely useful, indeed.
<quadrispro> though, we need to introduce an important change to jack to make ladish work fine
<persia> Indeed, which was a stumbling block for the longest time, and, if I recall correctly, one of the reasons nedko went to work on JACK2 upstream.
<quadrispro> AFAIK, first of all jack needs to compile with a sort of no-self-connect option enabled
<quadrispro> to avoid conflicts between apps' self-connecting feature and LADISH's session management
<persia> Um.  That doesn't sound ideal: there's been a lot of effort to make JACK "Just Work" by enabling self-connect.  Do you think that we can get enough documentation that users won't be annoyed, or set up some sort of initial auto-connect with ladi?
<quadrispro> documentation is never enough :) and yes, it would introduce several complications
<quadrispro> I need to send Adrian all information I've collected
<persia> So, what still depends on the "audio" group?  My understanding is that most stuff has evolved to no longer depend on this, and if we can find out what is outstanding, and clear the rest, that is probably better than making sure users have an easy way to be added to the group.  Part of "Just Works" :)
<scott-work> persia:  i thought that the real-time time privileges given when adding the jack package depend on being in the audio group
<scott-work> also i thought the new udev rules for firewire depend on the audio group
<scott-work> oi, i thought ubuntu.com and launchpad.com were slow...however, kernel.org must be on dialup in the antartic
<scott-work> persia: https://ieee1394.wiki.kernel.org/index.php/Juju_Migration#Permissions_and_ownership_for_.2Fdev.2Ffw.2A shows that it depends on video group but i believe ailo looked into this and found that it was the audiog roup
<scott-work> of course i could be mistaken
<scott-work> abogani: good morning!  i notice that the kernel blueprint for natty is complete with one notable exception, getting documentation for kernel derivatives/flavour into the repositories
<persia> Depends on the udev rules, really.  Should be possible to consolekitify it, I'd think.
<scott-work> abogani: hopefully we see something soon and in time for natty
<scott-work> persia: i will defer to your knowledge and judgement on that as i know practically nothing about consolekit
<persia> May be best to just upload something, really, and fix it later.  Last time I checked with apw, he said that the team had lost a lot of folk, and was having trouble getting all their work done (which is why the doc isn't published yet)
<scott-work> persia: upload kernel to the repository?
<persia> Sure.
<persia> Maybe best to stick with the group for now then.  I suspect it's fixable, but it may be non-trivial, sadly.
<scott-work> abogani: ^^^ please note that persia is advocating uploading your -lowlatency kernel into the repository, unless i am misreading
<persia> Indeed I am.  Waiting further just gets annoying, although without the document, there may be work to do later to bring it into compliance.
<scott-work> but waiting longer also risks not getting the kernel into natty
<scott-work> which is bad i should add
<persia> Indeed.
<ailo> There's now udev rules included for firewire with the standard Ubuntu install in /lib/udev/rules.d/69-ffado.rules which point to Audio group
<ailo> 60-ffado.rules*
<persia> It should really be richer than that.  Audio interfaces should be granted permissions similar to USB/PCI/etc. audio interfaces.
<ailo> But those are only for realtime, what I understand
<persia> Storage devices should be given extremely restrictive permissions.
<persia> Video devices should be granted permission as needed (I don't have enough knowledge of how video processing works to know if this is restrictive, group video, etc.)
<ailo> The firewire device should work without editing, and using no realtime with jackd
<ailo> We tested firewire, and this is what we have found, so far
<persia> Sure, but with juju+udev, we no longer need have a single policy for all devices: we can have a per-device policy, based on what the hardware actually does.
<ailo> There is per device policy in the 60-ffado.rules file
<scott-work> ailo: did you specifically test if the user does needs to be in the audio group (i.e. does performance degrade if the user is not in the group?)....i don't current remember if you did or not
<ailo> But still, only for realtime, as what I can understand
<ailo> After a quick test firewire worked without realtime and no audio group
<scott-work> hmmm, interesting
<ailo> With realtime and no audio group, jackd would crash
<persia> That's a bug, and ought get sorted.
<ailo> We only need to be in audio group to get full performance on Natty
<ailo> Or, what the drivers and such will allow
<persia> But why?  If JACK is crashing, there's a bug in JACK that ought be fixed.
<ailo> Haven't confirmed on a another machine. Holstein had a crash when not being in audio group and using realtime
<persia> OK.  We need an apport crash report on that bug, and it oughtn't be that hard to fix JACK so it doesn't crash.
<ailo> Ok. Let's tell holstein to check it out.
<persia> If there's some permissions issue, JACK may have to send some sort of warning, but crashing is always wrong.
<paultag> persia: it fails with dignity
<paultag> persia: the app stays alive and opens a message box suggesting to change permissions
<persia> Ah, that's not a crash then.
<paultag> persia: +1
<persia> Ah, ugh.  It's a limitation due to limits.conf: the choices are 1) set rtprio for @audio, and put users in the "audio" group, or 2) set rtprio high by default.
<AutoStatic> That's it. You don't have to be in the audio group to use JACK in realtime
<persia> Only if PAM is configured like that.
<AutoStatic> But you do have to be in that group when you want to use FireWire with the JuJu stack
<AutoStatic> Yes, only if PAM is set up for the audio group
<AutoStatic> rtprio at least, so pam_limits
<persia> I don't know enough about PAM, but I suspect there's a way to set rtprio for users logging in at console, and not for remote users or system users, which would seem to better match "Just Works".
<AutoStatic> Yes that's possible
<persia> Yes, that's how we do it in Ubuntu today, with pam_limits and limits.conf
<persia> Do you know how?
<AutoStatic> you can set that in the /etc/pam.d directory
<persia> Do you know what config needs to be dropped there to make pam_limits set rtprio for the local logins only?
<persia> (we'd also want to set memlock, but that's a trivial extension once there is an example for rtprio)
<AutoStatic> Just a sec, I know a bit of PAM but I am no guru either ;)
<persia> Thanks a lot for looking into this! :)
<AutoStatic> grep /etc/pam.d -lr -e "pam_limits"
<AutoStatic> That will give you a list of authentication stuff that uses pam_limits
<persia> I suspect we want it for gdm/kdm/gdm-autologin at least.  Maybe some others that I'm not seeing immediately.
<persia> But looking (for example) at the gdm script, I'm not sure how to set specific pam_limits config there, only in the case where that is the source of session initiation.
<AutoStatic> by adding conf=/path/to/limits.conf
<AutoStatic> Or /path/to/limits.d/gdm.conf for example
<AutoStatic> It will override the default settings
<persia> So something like "session required pam_limits.so conf=/etc/security/limits-rtprio.conf" ?
<AutoStatic> So if I understand the pam_limits manpage correctly it shouldn't process any other files in /etc/security/limits.d/
<AutoStatic> yes
 * persia reads the manpage again
<persia> The trick is that we *want* it to process the rest of limits.d/ but just add the one special extra config conditionally
<AutoStatic> Ah, oh yeah, well, I'm reredinmg it too
<AutoStatic> rereading
<AutoStatic> "If a config file is explicitly specified with a module option then the files in the above directory are not parsed."
<persia> |If /etc/security/limits.conf has some syntax to specifically include /etc/security/limits.d/, I'd be a lot happier, because then it would be easy.  Unfortunately, it's not clear to me how to make it work.
<persia> Right.
<AutoStatic> And the above directory is /etc/security/limits.d
<AutoStatic> Well, I think if you include the common-* files in /etc/pam.d and put "session required pam_limits conf=/etc/security/limits.d/rtprio.conf" later in the file you should get what you're aiming for
<AutoStatic> Ah, but you want it to process everything in /etc/security/limits.d :$
<AutoStatic> Not sure how to set that up
<persia> Forcing conf= seems like it will break stuff for other packages.
<persia> What's the risk of setting rtprio=99 for everyone?
<AutoStatic> Not sure, I'm not a security expert
 * persia goes to ask the experts
<AutoStatic> But it could lead to programs trying to take advantage of this, setting their SCHED_FIO/SCHED_RR prio to 99 and stall the PC maybe?
<AutoStatic> Or am I talking BS here ;) ?
<AutoStatic> SCHED_FIFO
<persia> No, but we're making that happen for all our real users anyway: the risk is more about system users.
<AutoStatic> PAM does allow you to set optional control values
<persia> What does that mean, in practice?
<AutoStatic> That the success or failure of a module doesn't really matter
<persia> How does that help?
<AutoStatic> Unless it is the only module associated with a certain service
<AutoStatic> maybe it is possible to set a session required pam_limits
<persia> That's the default.
<AutoStatic> but also a session optional pam_limits conf=/yadiyadi/ya for gdm
<persia> My fear there is that it might not succeed, which would mean that some users might not get the rtprio setting, and it would be hard to troubleshoot for the support team.
<AutoStatic> Yeah, I think you're right
<persia> Since the current support team is 80% holstein, I'm *really* not tempted to do anything that would increase the workload :)
<persia> Seems diwic is already on it: http://comments.gmane.org/gmane.comp.audio.jackit/23110
<falktx> hey guys
<falktx> is it ok for me to build abogani's low-latency kernel for lucid and maverick ?
<falktx> quadrispro: ping
<scott-work> lol persia , that should be holstein's tag line..."Holstein:  80% of the support team"
<quadrispro> falktx, pong
<falktx> quadrispro: hey
<falktx> quadrispro: laditools is ready now, right?
<quadrispro> falktx, ready and uploaded
<scott-work> oh, quadrispro and persia, i saw your discussion on the licensing this morning
<quadrispro> falktx, but we won't have gladish until piem uploads new flowcanvas
<falktx> quadrispro: we dont need the most recent one
<falktx> quadrispro: flowcanvas v0.6 works fine
<quadrispro> falktx, moving to #lad
<quadrispro> falktx, back here :)
<quadrispro> falktx, but sources in src are all QT4-based
<falktx> k
<falktx> and?
<quadrispro> ah no, now I understand
<falktx> quadrispro: what is the problem about qt?
<quadrispro> no particular problems
<quadrispro> and I'm noticing that it's just a frontend, so no modules get added
<quadrispro> looks good
<falktx> quadrispro: check the 'keyboard.py' thing!
<quadrispro> however, we should wait to have ladish in the archives first
<falktx> quadrispro: yes, of cource
<quadrispro> falktx, yes, looking at it right now
<falktx> quadrispro: my app is not even beta right now...
<quadrispro> falktx, ok, I'll stay tuned ;)
<falktx> quadrispro: the keyboard doesnt act by mouse, only by keys
<quadrispro> falktx, why not help this poor guy in writing a small bunch of manpages for ladish? :)
<quadrispro> hi scott-work persia 
<falktx> quadrispro: i dont really know how to write manpages...
<quadrispro> falktx, it's easy, just a bit tedious :)
<falktx> quadrispro: btw, i made a (complete) patch for mumble jack support
<quadrispro> falktx, please take a look -> http://goo.gl/Dn9R1
<quadrispro> falktx, ah mumble, I remember we had a chat about it
<quadrispro> but please get in touch with the Debian VoIP team
<falktx> quadrispro: better, I'll send upstream
<quadrispro> of course the right way
<quadrispro> bye guys
<falktx> damn it I hate natty now
<falktx> everything fails to build!!
<falktx> arrrrg
<scott-work> why are they failing to build?
<falktx> link error, like composite did
<holstein> persia scott-work lol
<holstein> i'll read the scroll-back here in a bit
<holstein> about that test
<holstein> i got some new mics i want to check out for a bit though :)
<persia> falktx, After reading http://liw.fi/manpages/, I've suddenly found it really easy to write manpages.  I highly recommend it.
<falktx> persia: nice! thanks
<scott-work> oooh, a new bookmark :)
<ScottL> thanks for the persia for the direction and help today
<persia> No problem.  I haven't seen diwic around: I recommend chasing up with him about getting JACK to use rtkit so we don't need the limits.conf hack or the audio group (because it may well fall out of my working set before it happens if I don't catch him soon).
#ubuntustudio-devel 2011-01-27
<ScottL> that's funny that you mention him persia, i thought about him yesterday or the day before and was thinking about asking him how things were going (not that i completely understand all of it)
<falktx> hey quadrispro
<falktx> quadrispro: thanks for all your work so far on ladish
<scott-work> holstein: since you have testing the -lowlatency kernel can you respond to this email:  https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-studio-devel/2011-January/002931.html
<scott-work> holstein: if you could, please describe the performance of the -generic kernel comapred with alessio's -lowlatency kernel
<scott-work> i did so already at the bottom of the thread to help people understand how much improvement this kernel gives for audio work
<scott-work> it would be appreciated if anyone else has experience with the performance improvement derived from abogani's -lowlatency kernel and would respond to the email thread linked above
<scott-work> ailo__: ^^^^ ?
<ailo__> Yeah, what's up scott-work?
<ailo__> I've been reading a little about the discussions earlier, but haven't had the time to get fully informed.
<ailo__> We can't compare with the -generic until it can do realtime
<ailo__> Unless we compare with an older system, like Maverick
<ailo__> I'm not clear on when the -generic will include the patch that gives us rtprio again
<scott-work> ailo__: good point, i should append my email to mention that
<scott-work> :(
<holstein> scott-work: i saw that
<holstein> the email
<ailo__> holstein: did you ever test firewire without rt and no audio group?
<holstein> ailo__: i thought we did
<ailo__> I know tanders did
<holstein> ailo__: i need to make better notes with these tests
<holstein> ans we go
<ailo__> But, just to be perfectly sure. 
<holstein> as*
<holstein> wont have time till maybe saturday 
<ailo__> I guess we should have made a testing table
<holstein> ailo__: we could just have a google doc
<holstein> or something
<holstein> so we dont forget what happened
<ailo__> Sure. Maybe arrange that for next release, just to cover the basics when testing
<holstein> somethine for the 2 of us at least next time we are testing
<ailo__> I mean, of course we could do it before too, but then we don't need to think as much when we do the tests. Volunteers can just follow the table. I know there's a wiki page devoted to that, but we should form a definitive documentation for testers
<ailo__> I think more people would join in if they got clear instructions
<holstein> agreed
<scott-work> i absolutely agree with that as well
<holstein> scott-work: i was actually trying not to respond to that email
<scott-work> oh, okay
<holstein> i feel like all of that has been covered
<holstein> several times
<holstein> like you said 
<scott-work> i agree, it is frustrating
<holstein> i might just add how easy it is to test them
<holstein> and what i have found performance wise
<scott-work> that would be good :)
<holstein> anyways... BBL
<scott-work> holstein: awesome email :)
#ubuntustudio-devel 2011-01-28
<ScottL> persia, do you have a minute to talk about the -lowlatency kernel?
<persia> yes
<ScottL> i want to make sure that i understood your comment earlier about uploading it
<ScottL> my understanding was that alessio should upload his -lowlatency kernel to the ubuntu repositories
<persia> If folks are happy with it, I think it ought be uploaded.  I'm even willing to sponsor it (assuming it's not too full of packaging warts).
<persia> He doesn't have permission.  He applied once, and it all fell apart in confusion.
<persia> I think that's fixable, but not soon.  Until then, someone would have to sponsor the uploads.
<ScottL> can i reply to his email to me that he can work with you on uploading it?
<persia> I'll just catch him when he shows up here later (should be 8-9 hours, based on past history)
<ScottL> that would be fantastic :)   i feel that i still need to respond to his email, so i'll ask him to talk to you then perhaps?
<persia> Did I get this mail as well?  I may as well respond directly in that case :)
<ScottL> it was an email that was sent directly to me, that's why i feel a response is necessary
<persia> Oh, yeah.  Go ahead and tell him I said he could contact me, and I'd upload something.  I think he knows me well enough to know that I'm not always around if he needs uploads, but let's not block on him not having direct upload today.
<persia> On a separate note, did you ever hear back from diwic?
<ScottL> certainly, my most pressing concern is getting the kernel in for natty
<ScottL> i had planned to contact diwic during work, but unfortunately did not have time
<ScottL> but i will do so tonight when i have a few minutes uninterrupted
<persia> Good luck.  I keep not finding him when I have a few minutes to look :(
<ScottL> my plan was to actually email him directly
<persia> Heh.  That might work better than randomly checking his idle status on IRC indeed :)
<ScottL> okay, email sent and cc'd you
<ScottL> i feel that there have been some exciting development for ubuntu studio during natty
<ScottL> but i would also like to begin to look forward to Outrageous Orangutan
<persia> My recommendation would be to make the switch around FeatureFreeze.
<persia> Before then, tight focus on Natty is probably beneficial, only deferring what clearly can't be done into a "future" bucket.
<persia> Then, come FF, review the "future" bucket, and start working towards strategy and goals for natty+1 to be prepared for UDS, whilst watching Natty for must-fix-now bugs or other release showstoppers.
<scott-upstairs> persia, i still have two more outstanding items that i feel responsible for currently; the gnome-classic default xsession issue and some problems with tasksel
<scott-upstairs> i have an "appointment" or general agreement to meet with didrocks for the former
<scott-upstairs> i have code, others have looked at it and "think" it's good, but my testing has been inconclusive
<scott-upstairs> my concern is that perhaps my testing is flawed :P
<scott-upstairs> the tasksel issue is that during installation it seems to offer more than the intended options to install
<scott-upstairs> rather than have a single item for ladpsa, lv2, and dssi, it seems to offer each one as an individual choice, although i'm not sure what they install individiually 
<scott-upstairs> i've looked back at the seeds and it seems that it should do that
<scott-upstairs> i'll be talking with colin watson about that beginning next week
<scott-upstairs>  
<scott-upstairs> BUT i had a thought about the future though
<scott-upstairs> i would like to talk through it here and hopefully others see it and can offer opinions
<scott-upstairs> troy has bugged me for awhile about ubuntu studio....what IS it?  WHO is it for?
<scott-upstairs> and i've never had a really good idea, and nobody has seen to be able to really, accurately, and concisely write a wiki page to do so either
<scott-upstairs> i've given thought on it or how ubuntu studio can differentiation itself more from other music distros
<scott-upstairs> but troy also said something the other night that is pushing me abit
<scott-upstairs> i had discovered a really good dvd authoring application (dvdstyler) and told troy about it....he was nonplussed, i think he said "yawn"
<scott-upstairs> he was of the opinion that it's more or less a dead technology and he's more or less right i believe, it's certainly not the excitement for tomorrow
<scott-upstairs> so, getting video onto the web is where video is at
<scott-upstairs> and blender can help with that...quite easily
<scott-upstairs> but what about music...can we help musicians get their music on the web
<scott-upstairs> can we help musicians become internet savvy with promoting themselves, posting their music/videos, telling others about themsevles?
<scott-upstairs> instead of a "me menu", can we offer something like a "music me" menu?
<scott-upstairs> instead of posting a picture to twitter, can we develop an app that would push a song to a server, create the link, and send "listen to my new song - http://shorturl.url" ?
<scott-upstairs> can we develop good workflows to help musicians make vimeo or youtube ready videos?
<scott-upstairs> can we cultivate ubuntu studio to be a "web musician" platform?
<ScottL> are there other items that people can suggest that would help musicians?
<persia> Heh.  Now you're starting to think about the possibilities :)
<persia> Personally, I wouldn't focus on differentiation for the sake of differentiation, instead I'd recommend focusing on enabling exciting behaviours.
<persia> If everyone else adopts the same stuff, that's not bad: it just compliments on the direction you've chosen.
<persia> Similarly, if other folk do cool stuff, there's no reason not to borrow.
<ScottL> right, but i'm not thinking of differentiation just for its sake, i'm thinking of providing something that would cause users to choose ubuntu studio because it was useful
<ScottL> the open source nature makes it so that everyone will eventually have the same functionality most likely
<ScottL> and i can accept it, but if we come first then hopefully we can do it right or better than others who will be "catching up"
<persia> Well, there's ways one can make that hard, but I think that following the spirit, everyone will always have the same stuff.
<persia> I think that strategically it makes sense to pick a relatively small area of focus for leadership, and let others lead in other areas.
<persia> For instance, if the focus is "enable simple and seamless audio/video production, promotion, and distribution", that meets the targets you mention above.
<persia> But still provides space for some other distro to push resources into creating the ultimate DAW, or similar.
<persia> And the result is that everyone benefits.
<ScottL> i don't want to make it hard for others, that's certainly not part of the open source spirit in my opinion
<ScottL> but innovation should always keep you in front for a period of time
<persia> Well, kinda.  Depends where you're headed :)
<ScottL> hopefully we can maintain some sense of innovation, i'm not sure it's really happening in other audio distributions
<ScottL> oh, that's true about where you are  headed
<persia> But given the resources of Ubuntu Studio, I recommend starting with a fairly narrow definition of "ahead" if you want to have the perception of being ahead of others :)
<persia> I very much support innovation, but I tend to be interested in innnovation towards some goal, rather than in comparison with others.
<ScottL> right, innovation without a definitive and worthy goal is hollow, doing so to be "better" than others is doubly so
<ScottL> i would like to help find and develop a defining aspect of ubuntu studio that establish it so that it isn't simply interchangeable with other audio distributions
<persia> But innovation to make Ubuntu Studio better for folk who want to create stuff and post it to the internet is a cool and worthy goal :)
<ScottL> well, you are correct :)
<ScottL> i thought of something else
<persia> Yes?
<ScottL> another possible idea is that a musician could use a "music me" menu to post a song to various music hosting sites, lke bandcamp or soundcloud, with a single click
<ScottL> sorry for the delay, wife came home and fmaily is going a little crazy behind me currently
<persia> No worries.  I'm cooking, so intermittently latent as well :)
<persia> Ought that be contextual per-song: some sort of nautilus plugin?
<ScottL> my original thought was how you can configure gwibber or the me menu how your posts can send/retrieve from various formats
<ScottL> click the "push song" button, navigate to the song to select it, and click the "places" (i.e. bandcamp, etc) to send it to
<ScottL> maybe an option radio button for posting to identica with a message
<persia> So, what is the complete interaction?  Audio or video files don't tend to fit in menus as easily as string input widgets :)
 * persia needs to get more patient
<persia> OK.  That makes sense.
<persia> My concern is that it feels like an extra step, as compared to navigating to the song via the file manager, and then sending it to the chosen service via the SendTo menu.
<persia> On the other hand, what you describe is more discoverable :)
<ScottL> that would work as well, i'm not a coder, i just come up with ideas from time to time :)
<ScottL> but i think it would serve to have others weigh in as well and brainstorm ideas
<persia> It's just software: the implementation is wildly flexible.  The hard part is designing the least invasive interaction paradigm so that the user intuitively is able to accomplish their goals and feels the loss when the features aren't available.
<persia> Oh, indeed.
<ScottL> maybe i should make another blueprint or a ubuntu brainstorm idea as well, try to pull other people into it
<persia> If you want to encourage innovation in the area of creating content and sharing it online, I'd recommend starting a big thread about that, and soliciting people to write specifications (which they would be willing to help implement) once the ideas begin to solidify
<ScottL> i'm terribly encouraged by paul.tag's involvement currently, especially so at a time when i was beginning to despair and worry about the future
<persia> I think that's the right path.
<ScottL> "a big thread" at ubuntu forums?
<ScottL> or on the mailing lists
<persia> I was thinking mailing lists.  You could do forums.  You probably know which sort of discussion is preferred by our users more than I (I mostly only hang out on IRC)
<ScottL> i think we have a small, cusping on vibrant, group in the mailing list, with others sometimes joining from time to time, e.g. ailo or ronan
<ScottL> it's been a bit of a mixed bag with the forums though, it seems to be those who are well intentioned but do not seem to really follow through or contribute
<persia> In that case, I'd recommend the mailing list as the place for discussion intending to lead to work for the participants :)
<ScottL> persia, david responded to my email (you were included in the email but i know you don't read everything) and he says he hasn't really done anything as he's pretty busy with canonical work
<holstein> ScottL: henningson?
<persia> ScottL, Indeed.  Hrm.
<persia> holstein, Yes.
<holstein> im going to get some better, more factual data 
<holstein> i'll try and get it later
<holstein> cut and past from the JACK window running that generic kernel
<persia> The problem seems to not be the rtprio part, but the memlock part.
<holstein> yeah
<holstein> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux/+bug/690010
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 690010 in linux (Ubuntu) "RT_GROUP_SCHED kernel option makes JACK and Rtkit unusable in Ubuntu Natty" [Undecided,Fix committed]
<holstein> i'll see if i can catch ailo later
<holstein> and we can add to that bug or whatever
<persia> Does that affect pulse as well?
<holstein> hmmm
<holstein> persia: good question
<persia> If it does, diwic can probably claim it's paid work to work on it :)
<holstein> true
<persia> Maybe already sorted: diwic claims "Confirmed fixed in v2.6.38-rc2. Soon coming to a kernel near you :-)" in comment #15
<persia> And again in #17 with "Confirmed fixed in 2.6.38-1-generic"
<holstein> yeah, thats what i need to check
<holstein> ailo and i both found an RT error in the JACK messages
<holstein> doesnt make JACK not run
<holstein> but, you cant use things like rakarrack or soft synths
<persia> So JACK runs, but without realtime?  Even with rtprio set in limits.conf?
<holstein> persia: thats the issue we found
<holstein> and had ScottL confirm
<holstein> we were talking about keeping better testing documentation though
<holstein> ailo has emailed a lot of the particulars
<holstein> so its in writing somewhere
<holstein> i'll have to ask ailo though
<holstein> right now im seeing JACK server starting in realtime mode with priority 10
<holstein> with a generic kernel
<holstein> in lucid
<holstein> lots of xruns though
<ailo> Let me reboot and post the jack message from using the -generic
<ailo> First time I try linux generic 2.6.38-1. Seems to work. How can one see if it isn't handling memlock?
<ailo> jackd message http://paste.ubuntu.com/559552/
<persia> ailo, You are using the limits.conf settings?
<persia> Or rtkit?
<ailo> Should I remove limits.conf?
<ailo> I'm using it now
<ailo> Or, I am using audio.conf to be more exact
<persia> No, juec checking to answer your question :)  Do you have a memlock entry in your audio.conf?
<persia> s/juec/just/
<ailo> Yes. It's the default that came with the jackd installation. 
<ailo> rtprio 95, memlock unlimited
<persia> In that case, your JACK is working with unlimited memlock.  You will probably get performance degradation without that setting.
<persia> The outstanding bit of work is 1) to extend rtkit to be able to also provide unlimited memlock, and 2) to have JACK use rtkit instead of relying on the PAM settings.
<ailo> So, next update will fix that?
<persia> If someone does the work :)  Personally, I think it will be a bit longer.
<ailo> Still, just testing the -generic kernel with realtime on Natty for the first time, the performance is no comparable with -lowlatency at least
<persia> That said, it's great news to know that we don't have a regression anymore, although there is still work to do to be able to avoid the "audio" group without exposing the system to DoS attacks.
<persia> That's expected.  Hard numbers would be appreciated.
<persia> abogani, May I publish the -lowlatency from your PPA to the archive, or shall I wait for another upload or two?
<ailo> I can only do this comparison. -lowlatency 64 frames/period. -generic 256 frames/period
<ailo> But I would need to do some more testing too
<abogani> persia: I would want wait for next upload I'm building -38 right now.
<persia> abogani, Sounds like a plan.  Will that include the fix for the issue discussed above?
<abogani> persia: Do you mean the fix for bug 690010?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 690010 in linux (Ubuntu) "RT_GROUP_SCHED kernel option makes JACK and Rtkit unusable in Ubuntu Natty" [Undecided,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/690010
<persia> Yes
<abogani> persia: Of course. 
<persia> Excellent!
<persia> In that case, just let me know when you're happy with the state of the package, and I'll push it.
<abogani> persia: Ok.
<persia> Thanks a lot
<abogani> persia: Thanks to you.
 * persia hasn't done anything yet :)
<ailo> I'm having some problems with nvidia on 2.6.38-1. I suppose that is to be expected?
<abogani> By the way, the actual procedure for update  the -lowlatency kernel is **really** trivial. So I'm feel confident to let the package in someone others hand. Is there someone would want start his way as kernel maintainer? Volunteers?
<ailo> Actually there is no realtime without the audio.conf on the new -generic
<ailo> I removed the @audio lines in audio.conf and got this http://paste.ubuntu.com/559558/
<ailo> Still, nice to have realtime at all
<ailo> Do I need to do something to get rtkit to work with jackd, aside from installing the latest -generic?
 * abogani is wondering if we could use file capabilities instead of audio.conf, limits.conf and rtkit...
<abogani> Is it too rough?
<ScottL> abogani, i would like to start myway as kernel maintainer
<abogani> ScottL: Ok.
<abogani> Any thoughts about file capabilities?
<persia> ailo, If you want JACK to use rtkit, it would require source-level changes in JACK.
<persia> abogani, File capabilities aren't enough.  We can do rtprio with rtkit easily enough.  The part that is yet to be investigated is the memlock=unlimited, which I don't believe we can express with capabilities alone in a way that correctly restricts it to console users.
<persia> The risk of not integrating with consolekit and restricting to console users is that other classes of user would be able to overdemand resources, making the system unresponsive.
<persia> The initial feedback I received from the #ubuntu-hardened folk is that they would much prefer us to limit to console users.
<abogani> persia: Ok I understand. Thanks for explanation.
<ScottL> ah, i think i have the problem fixed for the gnome-classic default xsession issue
<ScottL> (or, how lysdexlia screwed up my code)
<ailo> Will there ever be a problem us using audio.conf on Natty? I assume we will not be able to live without it, since audio apps need to be changed in order to work without it.
<ailo> ScottL: So your headache is over?
<ailo> I guess I could ask you persia. audio.conf will be required by UbuntuStudio. I assume there will be no problems with that.
<persia> What is the content of audio.conf, and where is it placed?
<ailo> persia: /etc/security/limits.d/audio.conf  added when choosing yes to realtime while installing jackd
<persia> Oh, instead of modifications to limits.conf?
<ailo> Yes
<persia> I very much hope we can find a solution that doesn't require that, but until such a solution is established, yes it is required.
<ailo> So, two lines. One for rtprio and one for memlock
<ailo> persia: I'm working on UbuntuStudio-controls which will check if that file exists. I guess I won't be able to change that after feature freeze. Don't know what my options are after that.
<persia> Do you think we ought just ship that file configured when JACK is installed, to save the user from confusion?
<ailo> The idea is that the -controls will make sure we get good audio performance, and we can't get it without the audio.conf, audio group and -lowlatency kernel
<ailo> persia: That would be great
<persia> Then let's do that.  In general, I believe in the philosophy of "Just Works": if we think we need to have that file, let's ship it with JACK.
<ailo> I'm for that.
<ScottL> i believe that jack creates the /etc/security/limits.d/audio.conf during installation (even from vanilla ubuntu) if the user choose to enable rt privileges when prompted
<persia> We can recommend the lowlatency kernel, and install it by default (if everything is sorted), but I'd rather avoid forcing the user to manually adjust things, if possible.
<ailo> The problem I would think is to add the user automatically to audio group
<ScottL> ailo, i hope that the headache is over, i just need to wait for a ppa build and then test it
<ailo> As for audio.conf, I see no reason to edit that
<ailo> And if -lowlatency could be added as a choice while installing either jackd or Ubuntustudio-*(something) that would be great too
<ailo> Or will the -lowlatency end up in the repos for Natty, now? I missed that
<ailo> I too believe that the user shouldn't need to make too many choices. 
<ScottL> ailo, i think the changes for the -controls should consider that either -lowlatency or -rt kernel could be installed
<persia> ailo, I'm planning to upload -lowlatency to the archives once abogani finishes the update to 2.6.28
<ScottL> even if the -lowlatency is installed from a fresh ubuntu studio install we could still install the -rt kernel from the ppa
<persia> Err, 2.6.38
<ailo> persia: great news.
<persia> Is there observable difference in performance between -rt and -lowlatency?
<paultag> persia: not sure, but the underlying changes are pretty huge
<ScottL> persia, i believe using the -rt kernel allows users with firewire to adjust irq conflicts
<ailo> persia: still remains to be seen, however for firewire devices, -rt is the only option sometimes
<paultag> persia: the rt patch really changed the schedule code
<ScottL> for some users, an -rt kernel, even an older one, is a must to allow their firewire devies to function
<ScottL> that is what i have been told
<ailo> If the -rt will be slightly better, I can believe people will want to use that for extreme low latency too, but if not, it is most likely only suitable for firewire users as a last resort.
<persia> Someone ought investigate that.  I've been told by any number of kernel developers that -rt is really only interesting from an embedded viewpoint.  I've nothing against it, but I wonder if there isn't some other factor confusing reports.
<persia> I know that -rt sometimes increases overall system load, which can have negative effects for some audio applications, although I generally recommend against anyone loading their system enough to notice this sort of thing.
<ailo> I can't see any reason why -lowlatency shouldn't be regarded as the main multimedia kernel, and the -rt more as something experimental. Again, it is the last resort for some.
<ScottL> ailo, yes
<ScottL> once the -lowlatency gets into the repos it will included on the dvd as the "default" ubuntu studio kernel
<ScottL> that doesn't help people who start with vanilla ubuntu and install ubuntustudio packages though
<ScottL> that would be where the -controls checking script comes in
<ScottL> it would be nice to offer the choices (lowlatency or rt), giving explanation why each could be chosen, and then allow the user to select
<ailo> If we add the option to install it from -controls we'll need to make sure the user is updated on the difference between the two
<ScottL> and selection option could be "none - stop checking it for me"
<ailo> Yes
<ScottL> on my system i would want to install the -lowlatency, but i don't want the check to keep checking it and telling me the -rt kernel is available when i don't want it
<ScottL> and "opt out" choice would be very nice
 * ScottL is taking son to lunch then library, be back in a few hours
<ailo> I would let it check if either of the two is installed and then recommend the -lowlatency. If any of the two is installed, the user made that choice and we won't bug them about it
<persia> ailo, You'll be using python-apt to check and install the kernel?
<ailo> persia: don't know yet. I wrote a script that did that, but I will need to redo a lot if I make a real gui for Ubuntustudio-controls
<ailo> My first unfinished script uses zenity to do all that
<ailo> The plan was that the script is run at startup to check the system and notify the user if something is missing
<ailo> And if the user decides to make changes, -controls is opened, which also can be accessed manually. And that woul be written in python.
<ailo> To be clear, the first script was a bash script.
<persia> How are you running it "at startup"?
<ailo> As a startup program, which I added manually. I suppose that can be added as a part of the installation.
<ailo> There's just one thing that is bugging me when it comes to changing settings and such. Let's say the user installs -lowlatency from Ubuntustudio-controls. Now, the user needs to choose kernel at every boot.
<persia> Why?
<ailo> Seems unnecessary, while it would be unusual to uninstall the -generic. Is it possible to make Grub always choose a -lowlatency kernel. 
<persia> The standard method is to have the bootloaders boot the last installed kernel unless the user modifes their choices.
<ailo> Yes, but then comes an update...
<ailo> You will only have this problem when installing from repo and not from the alternate DVD
<ailo> I would actually vote for removing the -generic just to save some trouble, even if it is not so much trouble
<persia> There's a good argument for that.  The main opposition being that historically we've tried not to remove anything without user intervention.  Maybe it is worth investigating the bootloader update scripts to allow one to express a preference for one or another *type* of kernel, regardless of updates.
<ailo> I guess making Grub smart would be more standard like.
<persia> Always best to try to improve the code that one finds troublesome, rather than trying to work around it.
<falktx> hey there
<persia> In this case, I don't think grub itself needs to be adjusted: just the code that updates grub when the kernels are installed/updated
<falktx> I noticed you guys we're looking for a website cleanup/remodelling
<falktx> what CMS do you consider best - joomla, drupal or wordpress ?
<ailo> persia: I guess I should check it there already is a mechanism for choosing a kernel by name first. Thanks.
<persia> Good luck.
<ailo> ScottL: Nice work on the Plymouth theme, but now it's hardly showing at all. At boot-up I only see it for less than a second, after a few seconds of purple. The purple I'm assuming is a part of the Grub theme
<ailo> If we want to have a unified Ubuntustudio-look I would suggest someone had a look at changing the Grub theme as well.
<ailo> Or, is it scott-upstairs? :)
<ailo> Also, I had to reinstall it after some updates I did. Will that be a problem later, when the theme is in the repo? (I guess not).
<ailo> The theme was replaced by a blue screen, that is why I had to reinstall the Ubuntustudio Plymouth theme.
<ScottL> ailo, thanks on the plymouth theme (i actually thought it might have been just a touch too big now), but i don't believe i can control how long it stays on the screen
<ScottL> i had mentioned to holstein before about using the same graphic possibly for plymouth, grub, gdm, and background
<ScottL> ailo, also check with paultag about the -controls update, he's working on it as well with doctormo
<ScottL> i suggested that paultag get involved because i believe it too be extremely important to get the udpate done in time for testing so it can be included with natty to appreciate the user's experience
<ailo> ScottL: glad to hear that paultag is working on that. I should follow their work instead of pursuing my own. Still only learning the gui stuff, since I've had too little time.
<ailo> ScottL: Didn't try your update on the plymouth theme, though. So, I haven't seen the new size.
 * persia notes that in an ideal situation the boot is too fast to even display plymouth: one only sees it for slow boots.
<paultag> ailo: I want to hand this off to you after it's stable
<paultag> ailo: you seem like you'd make a good maintainer :)
<ailo> paultag: I would like to see what is done, since I already got involved. Can't predict what will happen for the next release.
<paultag> ailo: OK
<ailo> I'm ready to do some work on details if necessary. At least have the opportunity to slip in an idea
<ailo> paultag: Do you guys have a list of features for it? Ubuntustudio-controls that is.
<paultag> ailo: on the wiki somewhere. doctormo and I are fleshing it out
<ailo> paultag: This one? https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/ControlsRedesign
<paultag> ailo: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/SettingsApp/Redux
<ailo> paultag: Thanks. I discussed with persia about maybe letting jackd install the audio.conf by default. Don't know who can make this change. I would vote for that file to be added in the same fashion, if needed by -controls. No need to adjust values, just add the file as a part of adding user to audio group, since those go hand in hand..
<ScottL> paultag, ailo , i love to learn more about the updates as well that you are working on, and if no one else is there i will volunteer to be the maintainer
<paultag> ScottL: oh, no, I'm here for the long haul -- if no one really wants to take it over, I'll maintain it no problem
<paultag> ScottL: I'm just looking to give anyone at all their shot
<paultag> ScottL: and you're project leader, so stuff it ;)
<ailo> paultag: (The file /etc/security/limits.d/audio.conf being the file that includes rtprio and memlock settings.)
<paultag> ailo: yeah :)
<ailo> paultag: so far, I at least need rtprio set for me to use realtime on the latest -generic, so perhaps this will be needed in the future too? Seem like a lot of things are a bit uncertain. Anyway, that's my two cents.
<paultag> ailo: we'll chat, but I need to run to a wine tasting :)
<ailo> paultag: Ok. Have fun :)
<paultag> ailo: talk with you soon :)
<ailo> ScottL: As much as I would like to learn more about these things, I can't promise much for the next release, so I'll just focus on this one. At this point I think I should just focus on the testing documentation. If my startup-script is needed for anything, just use it. It will need to be adjusted to work with -controls, if used at all.
<ScottL> paultag, that link for doctormo's image didn't bring anything up :(   just an imagebin page with no image
<ScottL> ailo, that's understandable about the next release and i appreciate you being forthcoming about it :)
<ScottL> ailo, and you would aboslutely ROCK if you made any progress with the testing documentation 
<ScottL> paultag, i'm an idiot sometimes, it's the logo for -controls
<ailo> ScottL: Thanks. Shouldn't have to be too in to detail. Just nice to have a list of things to go through.
<ScottL> paultag, i was looking for a dialogue box type configuration page
<ScottL> ailo, that's true :)
<ScottL> paultag, kids were keeping my attention (even when looking at doctormo's image), looks pretty cool although the center reminds me of kde
<ScottL> i have SUCCESS with my gnome-classic xsession patch!  i'm so bloody happy :D
<ScottL> fresh install of natty, installed my ppa build, and new users default to gnome-classic
<persia> ScottL, Excellent work!
<ScottL> thank you, persia
<ScottL> i'll see if i can't get a patch uploaded tonight to the bug report
#ubuntustudio-devel 2011-01-29
<ScottL> falktx_, did you need something earler?
<falktx_> ScottL: i just asked about what CMS you guys prefer
<falktx_> joomla, drupal or wordpress
<ScottL> drupal for the website
<ScottL> troy_s, your comments the other night about dvd authoring being dead got me thinking about what an audio distribution could offer a musician
<troy_s> ScottL: LOL. Your mind works in strange ways.
<ScottL> troy_s, brainstorming a few ideas and will send an email to the mailing list later to see if anyone is interesting or wants to contribute
<ScottL> troy_s, i enjoy thinking outside the mainstream box, most people scare me with the way they think
<ScottL> troy_s, of course most of my "thinking" is really just ADHD
<ScottL> troy_s, but your comments/questions months and months ago about "what is ubuntu studio and who is it for" has stuck with me and i think about it often
<troy_s> ScottL: Don't blame the lunatic.
<troy_s> ScottL: We are utterly fearful of outwardly rejecting audiences (inner geek / nerd perhaps?) that we utterly fail to deliver to anyone in any great capacity. 
<ScottL> troy_s, no, no, it's a good question and it's one that probably should be asked periodically
<troy_s> ScottL: Just track the progress and you will see what I mean. In fact, track back far. I'll wager that the tendrils run deep.
<ScottL> in some ways it might be like peeling away the layers of an onion, once you eliminate what it isn't you are left with what it is
<troy_s> ScottL: The core of all is audience as Jim Krause says - "Audience governs all." and in that you can sum up about all of Don Norman's work and plenty of other famous folks.
<ScottL> troy_s, i haven't really found a good way to articulate my thought yet, but i would like to explore how ubuntu studio can facilitate today's musician with exposing their music/video to others
<troy_s> ScottL: Audience gives context and helps to define needs. Saying 'everyone' is a complete lack of respect for design. It cannot be done. It makes horrible assumptions about cultural values, about age demographics, about prior knowledge, about societal norms, etc.
<troy_s> ScottL: Erm... that wouldn't be Ubuntu Studio would it? Unless you had some sort of single click to publish thing with Jamendo or Magnatune. And even then, that doesn't work.
<troy_s> ScottL: That whole rubbish of unfettered such is just anarchy... it doesn't work worth a rat's ass. Look at Android's market for example.
<troy_s> ScottL: So realistically, there is no magic bullet for a musician there either. Can you create work with it? I have no clue. I do know that if the audio works are as gimped as... uh it shall remain nameless, then the answer is no and it is hopeless to aim even as high as intermediate.
<ScottL> troy_s,  i was thinking about tools that would help convert to formats for vimeo or youtube and then a mechanism to automate posting their work to the same along with soundcloud, bandcamp, et al
<ScottL> troy_s, and maybe even including a tag line to send via identica
<ScottL> "listen to my new song at..."
<ScottL> but this is just a single thought line from a single person
<ScottL> maybe i spark someone else's imagination and they think of something completely perpendicular but utterly brilliant
<troy_s> ScottL: Sounds interesting. No idea if that appeals to a given audience type. 
<ailo> ScottL: I think documentation for standard workflows is a good start.
<ailo> ScottL: If we think unix-like maybe such things like ladish will let us join all our little programs together. A lot seems to have to do with software design.
<ailo> Still haven't tried that myself, though :)
<ailo> Adding ways to publish on the web, aught to be providing info and links
<ScottL> TheMuso, i have added a patch to the gnome-classic default xsession bug 702712
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 702712 in ubuntustudio-default-settings (Ubuntu) "set gnome-classic xsession as default in natty" [Undecided,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/702712
<ScottL> hi rlameiro 
<rlameiro> Hey ScottL :D how are you?
<ScottL> rlameiro, doing well, fixed many things lately, lots of people working on good stuff for the future :)
<ScottL> today is also by daughters birthday party, i'm not really looking forward to having a crapload of pre-teen girls in the house today and "sleeping" over tonight
<rlameiro> Nice... when is alpha 2 going out?
<ScottL> i say "sleeping" because they really don't seem do any of it
<rlameiro> ooops...
<ScottL> we did this last year as well
<ScottL> !schedule
<ubottu> Ubuntu releases a new version every 6 months. Each version is supported for 18 months to 5 years. More info at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Releases & http://wiki.ubuntu.com/TimeBasedReleases
<ScottL> hmm, that's not it
<ScottL> !alpha2
<ScottL> february 3rd is alpha2 according to
<ScottL> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/NattyReleaseSchedule
<rlameiro> hummm almost there
<ScottL> hopefully we get the gnome-classic default xsession patched and included before then :/
<rlameiro> ScottL: what do you thing that are the most important testing procedures for US?
<rlameiro> I was thinking in making at least 3 audio tests....
<ScottL> i still have to see about fixing the tasksel as well, but i'm not worried about getting it necessarily for A2
<rlameiro> 1 - Onboard /souncard test
<rlameiro> 2 - USB interface test
<rlameiro> 3 - Firewire test
<ScottL> all good tests
<rlameiro> I think making to much test can be bad
<ScottL> ailo has been giving thought to testing as well, and documenting some of his and holstein's findings
<rlameiro> humm ok
<ScottL> they really starting digging into what it takes to make a firewire interface work
<rlameiro> I need to talk to them
<ailo> Yeah, it would be good to make some documentation for testers. 
<rlameiro> ailo: yeap...
<ScottL> rlameiro, i think you and ailo might work together to cover more ground and faster, maybe divide the work
<rlameiro> that was suposedely my job.... but i am slacking a lot....
<rlameiro> shame on me
<ailo> I've been looking into how to test lowlatency
<ScottL> lol, it's all voluntary and other things get in the way
<rlameiro> ScottL: tru... like lilypond
<ScottL> ailo, i'm thinking of taking some time this weekend and testing the new -generic kernel (2.6.38) and then the -lowlatency and see how it compares then
<rlameiro> ailo: what firewire interface do you have?
<ailo> rlameiro: I guess it should be pretty straight forward, just collect a list of things that need to be confirmed
<ailo> I don't have firewire, but I worked with holstein and a guy named tanders to do some tests
<rlameiro> humm
<ailo> Already did some initial tests on -generic
<ailo> But we would need to have some more variables than just testing jack and maybe jack + a program
<rlameiro> I tought  myabe doing an Ardour session with lots of plugins and at least 4 output channels to test firewire...
<ailo> rlameiro: You don't have any issue with firewire at all?
<rlameiro> ailo: where are ou from /TimeZone?
<ailo> +1, but maybe 0 just now
<rlameiro> ailo: didnt tested yet in natty
<ScottL> along with testing the three audio interfaces that rlameiro mentioned, we should have them verify that they are running with -rt privileges
<rlameiro> ok I am on Zero..
<rlameiro> I need to go now to a meeting with a composer
<ailo> Then I'm on +1 :)
<rlameiro> i wil come latter to see about it
<ailo> rlameiro: I will be here. Just ping
<rlameiro> ScottL: also maybe generic kernel test and abogani kernel test
<ailo> rlameiro: Let's make a table of things. 
<rlameiro> ScottL: is the Natty US ISO usable?
<rlameiro> can i install it on disk?
<ScottL> rlameiro, i believe it is, but when you begin to login you will need to select your xsession at the bottom
<rlameiro> ok
<ScottL> it will default to "Ubuntu Desktop" or something similar, you will need to select "Ubuntu Classic Gnome"
<rlameiro> so i will install it tonight ant test it with my firewire and see what is happening
<rlameiro> well
<rlameiro> I need to go now
<ScottL> this is the patch that i mentioned earlier, this will cause it to default to the gnome-classic xsession without having to pick anything
<ScottL> bye rlameiro 
<rlameiro> cya
<ailo> ScottL: I did some testing on the new -generic and as earlier I can confirm realtime from the latest -generic
<ailo> So, no reason to add that to the test now.
<ailo> But it could be added to a full Documentation of testing a new distro, or a new release of a distro
<ailo> I did just a simple testing table according to what rlameiro proposed now. http://paste.ubuntu.com/559948/
<ailo> Maybe we can post the tests to the mail list, later to do some comparisons. That could be fun
<ScottL> ailo, awesome ideas
<ailo> ScottL: It think we should have a script for the test. Then post the results from the script to the mail list. Should be the easiest solution.
<ailo> Just one test, to rule them all
<ScottL> LOL, but an awesome idea too
<ailo> rlameiro: I had some ideas before about testing
<ailo> What about making a script, post it on the mail list and let users add their results the list
<rlameiro> ailo: fire them up
<rlameiro> what kind of script?
<ailo> I don't know yet, but at least dealing with jackd
<ailo> At first I went with your suggestion and did this http://paste.ubuntu.com/559948/
<ailo> But, in order to be precise I think we need a script, that many can use and compare
<ailo> We don't need so many testers, perhaps, but it could be fun to post it on the mail list anyway
<rlameiro> yeap
<rlameiro> well, it would be nice to make a sript that automated the test...
<rlameiro> That would be awesome :D
<ailo> If we do a script, we could start it  ./script -d alsa -d hw:1 
<ailo> Like we would start jack
<rlameiro> yea
<ailo> Then collect info from the system, start some audio program and collect the results into a textfile
<ailo> I don't know what programs or what kind of action to take. though
<ailo> Have to eat. Be back later..
<falktx> hey guys
<falktx> hey rlameiro
<rlameiro> falktx: :D
<falktx> I have good news
<falktx> I made my realtime-31 package based on abogani's one, and it's building
<falktx> it it builds ok for lucid, then the same should happen for maverick too
<falktx> we may have some realtime kernels soon...
<rlameiro> nice
<falktx> compiling the kernel takes so much time...
<falktx> yay! the kernel compiled!
<ailo> falktx: No graphic drivers with those, right?
<falktx> ailo: not yet
<falktx> ailo: this is still the 31 kernel, in a few days I'll upload 33
<falktx> ailo: abogani's 33-rt kernel is outdated though...
<ailo> falktx: 31 for multiple distros, and 33 too?
<falktx> ailo: yes!
<falktx> ailo: 31 is building on maverick now
<falktx> (lucid was fine)
<falktx> ailo: natty will start build soon
<ailo> falktx: I'm sure some firewire users may have use for them. Did you check out the rtirq script yet?
<falktx> ailo: oh, not yet
<falktx> ailo: what do I need to do?
<ailo> falktx: Don't ask me :). But I know you will need it. 
<falktx> k
<ailo> falktx: http://alsa.opensrc.org/Rtirq
<falktx> ailo: I basically just need to update it, right?
<ailo> The rtirq needs to be updated at least for the new firewire stack, so that it gives priority to firewire
<ailo> firewire being the new name, don't remember the old name
<falktx> ailo: latest release of rtirq is from 2009
<falktx> lucid is already up-to-date
<falktx> if anyone wants to try:
<falktx> https://launchpad.net/~kxstudio-team/+archive/kernel/+sourcepub/1478697/+listing-archive-extra
<falktx> install the *.all.deb and *.i386|amd64.deb (depend on your arch)
<ailo> falktx: Here's how to install the rtirq http://my.opera.com/coreymwamba/blog/2009/01/03/automatically-realtime-priorities-using-rtirq
<ailo> I'm not sure if that is the correct way to do it on Ubuntu though
<falktx> ailo: there's a "simpler" way for ubuntu:
<falktx> update-rc.d rtirq defaults 50 10
<falktx> reboot time, testing realtime kernel
<falktx> realtime 31 kernel working fine
<falktx> things seems a little slower though
<falktx> the desktop at least...
<ailo> falktx: Did you try jack yet?
<falktx> ailo: will do that now
<ailo> Are you using the rtirq?
<falktx> ailo: yes, installed by default in kxstudio
<falktx> my realtime test always involves wine
<falktx> in generic, everytime I start a wine app, I got 1-3 xruns
<falktx> haha, now I got 0!
<ailo> I usually get xruns no matter kernel when starting some apps
<falktx> oh, 1 when adding new vst
<falktx> haha, I should the news on the forums
<falktx> *should post
<ailo> How about latency compared to -lowlatency?
<ailo> or -preempt in your case
<falktx> ailo: i did not test lowlatency yet
<rlameiro> ailo
<falktx> ailo: i have to do tests later
<rlameiro> http://testcases.qa.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio
<falktx> wow, Maverick rt31 also compiled!
<rlameiro> will try to add some procedures to this testcases page
<rlameiro> going to make some food and eat
<ailo> rlameiro: I guess I could help fill in some spaces there. I could start with the latency testing script. 
<falktx> hm, guys, cya
<falktx> rlameiro: eu n devo ir la, tenho mais k fazer....
<falktx> xau
<rlameiro> ailo 
<rlameiro> well, i dont know
<rlameiro> maybe we should do the script first
<rlameiro> maybe define a clear testing procedure
<ailo> rlameiro: What should the goal be?
<rlameiro> after that inplement it on a script
<ailo> I don't think it matters if we start from both ends at the same time
<ailo> I'm not a great scripter, but I thought I could at least start with making jack start and stop in different frames/period and then catch xruns and log them
<ailo> As a barebone
<ailo> For audio testing
<ailo> I'm thinking about what form the results should have, what the script should accomplish
<ailo> Many things I think needs to be done manually anyway, so maybe the script can be left simple.
<ailo> rlameiro: What do you think?
<rlameiro> I am with you :D
<rlameiro> ailo: in python?
<ailo> rlameiro: Bash is hard enough for me :)
<rlameiro> ok, i dont know mch of bash
<rlameiro> but we can try to pull it off
<rlameiro> but before that we need to know what to test for
<rlameiro> for instance
<rlameiro> firewire normally runs on 3 periods
<ailo> rlameiro: Why is that, anyway?
<rlameiro> I think it is related with the firewire bus
<rlameiro> also usb card should be run like that at low latencies
<ailo> 3 periods per buffer should work as default for all devices, right?
<rlameiro> at leas for FW ones
<rlameiro> *leasr
<rlameiro> grrr
<rlameiro> "least
<ailo> I don't think there is any problem with pci, so if it works best for firewire, I think we might as well keep it at 3, to make things easier
<rlameiro> well, but it is quite diferent setup for pci
<rlameiro> you can achive lower latencies
<rlameiro> for instance
<rlameiro> 2 buffers at 256 has lower latencie than 2 buffers at 256
<ailo> Of course, but maybe we don't need to make a very strict latency testing
<rlameiro> well yeah
<rlameiro> we could try to do 2 diferent types of test
<ailo> If we do, we should plug in outputs to inputs and measure the real latency, but that becomes more work.
<rlameiro> one for extreme values and another Standard
<ailo> There is a script for latency, latentor
<rlameiro> it could be used
<ailo> I'm looking for it now
<ailo> Here's some info on jack latency testing http://wiki.linuxaudio.org/wiki/jack_latency_tests
<ailo> The latentor script was on that page http://rg42.org/gitweb/?p=latentor.git;a=snapshot;sf=tgz
<ailo> But it will only work if you connect inputs to outputs
<ailo> rlameiro: I also asked about testing kernels a couple months back. Here's the discussion http://lalists.stanford.edu/lau/2010/12/0400.html
<ailo> To do very specific tests, that may take some more work, but just to get a general idea, we can still keep it very simple
<rlameiro> ailo... we could try to make a pd patch very, very, very cpu intensive with fft etc and run it without gui :D
<rlameiro> that would surely stress the ystem
<ailo> rlameiro: Good idea
<ailo> I haven't tested yet the difference, but I feel pd is slightly harder to get to work without xruns than Ardour. Using pd at least gives us total control of CPU intensivity.
<ailo> But that test would show the relationship between stress and xruns, instead of latency and xruns
<rlameiro> well, you cant do only one test for that
<ailo> Maybe do a series, where jack starts first, and then after a while pd is started. Xruns will follow from starting pd, but those can be ignored
<ailo> As well as shutting down pd
<rlameiro> yes, we need to give it some time to open and strat the patch
<rlameiro> after some time you only need to stop pd and then jack
<rlameiro> after that a new test
<ailo> Yes, that would work
<ailo> pd should track cpu to scale the intensity so it adapts to the system it is tested on
<rlameiro> yes we can look at the load and if it goes avobe 98 shutdown a module and if it goes lower than 97 connect other
<ailo> That takes care of the audio testing, but there's all the other things to worry about, which seem like it should be presented as a list of manual tasks to go through, one by one.
<ailo> Like boolean problems, does it work, or not
<ailo> But we can't have that for every piece of software. I think the tests should be directed at checking hardware
<ailo> Graphic cards, cd drives, things like that.
<rlameiro> yeap
<rlameiro> i think ubuntu already has some kind of test on that
<rlameiro> ont the system menu or something
<ailo> Yes, so we only need to do things that are Studio specific
<rlameiro> yeap
<rlameiro> altough we can direct them for that test for other stuff
<rlameiro> but this is also fo ease of testing inside of US dev
<rlameiro> not for every user
<rlameiro> for instance when there is a new kernel build we need to test it and see if it works or not
<rlameiro> only after that it would be available at ubuntustudio ppa
<ailo> Would you want to do the pd patch and I do the script that starts it?
<rlameiro> i can try
<ailo> I can help with pd if needed
<rlameiro> I could ask to the list the best way to stress DSP :D
<ailo> I'm sure pd list people can too
<rlameiro> they like that stuff :D
<rlameiro> crash computers and stuff
<ailo> hehe
<rlameiro> me too by the way
<ailo> good night rlameiro. I will work on the script tomorrow and make a quick version.
<rlameiro> ok. I dont know if i have a patch for tomorrow
<rlameiro> i can try
<ailo> no matter if the patch is empty. At least we have the backbone working :)
<ScottL> of course, all the testing is relative and would be hard to pinpoint exact comparisons between various user/hardware data
<ScottL> but hopefully we can divine vast trends though, e.g. -lowlatency generally is able to perform at approximately X msecs less that -generic without xruns
<ScottL> and comparing my data (with pci audio interface) with holstein's data (with firewire) might not have any direct correlation either unfortunately
<persia> ailo, If you create a latency testing tool, please have it sample at various system loads.  Frequently a setup that provides the lowest possible latency at low loads can scale poorly, so someone who runs more effects, or someone with lower-power hardware needs a different arrangement.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2011-01-30
<ailo> persia: We will use puredata for the system load, so we should quite easily be able to scale the system load for any specific machine. I'm sure we could use our own program for that, but puredata makes things easier at least at this early stage.
<ailo> My first idea was just to have two system loads, one low and one high. We can turn that into a latter.
<ailo> ScottL: I made this hierarchy for the test results, device - kernel - test, and for each device, test all kernels
<ailo> When we post the results of our tests, we just need to post for the same device, but different kernels.
<persia> ailo, Does puredata support arbitrary numbers of threads/processes?  The key load issue isn't usually raw CPU cycles, but context switches.
<ailo> persia: I need to find out more about that. I know you can have some sort of separation of processes, but I need to find out how exactly.
<ailo> persia: Could you give me an example of what would be desirable.
<persia> ailo, Basically, the goal would be to mimic someone running multiple JACK clients simultaneously.  Consider a recording session with lots of effects, or a polyphonic synthesizer (using different engines), or similar.
<persia> Unfortunately, context switches are expensive, and are one of the major causes of missing scheduling deadlines.  Hard RT forces deadlines to be met, but may drop processes to achieve this.  Soft RT maintains all the processes, but may drop deadlines to achieve this.
<persia> So it would be interesting to find the failure points for both soft- and hard- strategies on a variety of hardware.
<persia> Similarly, it becomes interesting to compare soft RT handling of failures from -generic, -server, and -lowlatency
<persia> Forcing the failure is a matter of increasing the demand for scheduled events under processor load/context switch pressure.
<persia> This can be because you have a lot of different things happening at the same time, or something happening exceedingly often.
<persia> So, latency measurement affects this: lower latency requires more demand events, which then limits the system's ability to handle multiple simultaneous event generators within the scheudle (considering the cost of context switches)
<ailo> persia: Puredata can have subprocesses, which are created manually. I guess that is what we need.
<persia> That works fine then, and gains the benefits of scriptability.
<ailo> I don't know how that compares with having different actual programs running, since they may have different jack coding too. 
<ailo> And what about multiple cores, won't that affect how many processes need to be started?
<ailo> persia: thanks for the info. I will look it over and try to put all that into the puredata patch
<persia> Multiple cores do affect it, but in a complex way.  You can run more threads on more cores simultanseously, which helps scheduling, but if you're running the kernel, JACK, and a few generators/effects, you can run out of cores quickly.
<persia> For that matter, the kernel ends up being something like 25 threads these days.
<rlameiro> hey evryone
<rlameiro> the last iso build isnt installing....
<ailo> rlameiro: http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2011/01/30/%23ubuntustudio-devel.html
<rlameiro> ailo: well, you could open diferent instances of pd...
<ailo> rlameiro: That's true. Don't know which is better, but that would work.
<rlameiro> also if you use [pd~] you open a pd grapher inside other, making another process
<rlameiro> mutlithread sort of speak
<ailo> Yes, that is what I was thinking about
<rlameiro> but i think persia was talking about switching of diferent process
<rlameiro> even connectin in jack etc
<persia> rlameiro, Precisely.  Mind you, this could be several pd instances
<rlameiro> like that, we could make some internal midi latency test also between pd instances
<ailo> I don't understand, switching between processes?
<persia> Yes.  This is an expensive operation for most hardware, which makes it prone to causing issues with meeting timing contracts.
<ailo> Opening pd will likely cause xruns. Don't think we have that problem when switching between different pd~ objects (pd~being an object that creates a new sub-process)
<rlameiro> ailo, in a nutshell, each pprocess or PID has a schedulling timer on the kernel
<rlameiro> The more demanding process are active the more is the CPU / RAM and system buses are pushed
<persia> ailo, Precisely.  Opening processes causes xruns for low-latency environments.  Switching between processes causes xruns.  The key is that if we discover that if we're only running one process in some environment and can get latencies of 2ms at sampling rates of 192kHz, it doesn't apply well to real-world usage.
<rlameiro> if you have less demanding process the scheduler simply gives more time to that process
<persia> Well, not always.  If all current contracts are met, and all current non-RT processes have no pending processing, and all buffers are populated, the processor will idle.
<persia> (a frequent cause of "no pending processing" is waiting on I/O, which can be dealing with a slow 44100 input feed, or reading off disk, or slowest, waiting for network content)
<ailo> I didn't realize pd~ opened a new instance of pd. 
<rlameiro> persia: or even Firewire overhead...
<persia> rlameiro, Or USB :)  Indeed, any sort of I/O.
<rlameiro> ailo: yes on the back
<ailo> btw, I'm not believing the performance I'm getting from the latest -generic. 
<ailo> Interesting to find out in more detail
<rlameiro> I remebr having to change my bluetooth dongle because it was messing with my audio interface
<rlameiro> same hub channe;l
<rlameiro> persia: thats aanother problem people seem to disregard
<rlameiro> we focuss to much on CPU.... i think its a legacy thing
<persia> Yeah, IO optimisation is mostly considered a "server thing", sadly.
<rlameiro> for composing on a DAW and lot of synts /sampler the most needed stuff is Memory and Fast I/o
<rlameiro> for instance using RAID 0
<rlameiro> for data 
<persia> How does the -server kernel compete?
<rlameiro> and having the OS on a SSD
<rlameiro> in audio persia ?
<persia> Yes.
<rlameiro> good question
<rlameiro> never tried it out...
<persia> OS on SSD doesn't always help: the path of the SSD is important, and the speed of the SSD (some aren't actually that fast)
<rlameiro> welll, The RAID0 disk i mentioned werent 5400 rpm either :D
<rlameiro> i was talking 10krpm
<persia> -server is supposed to be optimised for IO and fair scheduling under resource constraint, as opposed to the "Ooh, shiny, the user moved the mouse, let's update the screen!!!!!" focus of the -generic kernels
<rlameiro> at least 7200rpm
<rlameiro> persia: I wonder how is that diferentiated...
<rlameiro> audio could be considered shiny...
<persia> I don't know the details.  My limited understanding is that it's something like the -generic kernel giving priority to new processes, redraws, and similar, whereas the -server kernel gives priority to ensuring that IO isn't waiting on the processor.
<rlameiro> hummm
<persia> So for -generic, foreground vs, background is more important, etc.
<rlameiro> RT kernels were made for that stuff....
<persia> But I don't understand the details.
<rlameiro> stock market and stuff
<persia> RT kernels are about ensuring the scheduling contracts are met, not about optimising performance one way or another.
<rlameiro> yeap, on the stock market they need big I/o and Strict scheduling
<persia> This ends up looking like optimised performance, but it's kinda by accident, because the RT-using applications are meeting their contracts, although the rest of the system may be resource-starved.
<persia> 22 seconds :)
<rlameiro> well, a wrong app with RT permission can make a computer unusable for some time :D
<persia> Any app with RT permission can, it's just a matter of the contract requirements vs. the capacity of the system.
<persia> Personally, I'm of the view that RT is only required when either pushing the system beyond normal limits *OR* dealing with a system that has unpredictable resource requirements due to non-essential processes.
<persia> That said, it's not very hard to push a current-tech system beyond it's limits, if one tries :)
<rlameiro> yeap
<rlameiro> on my case Firewire with a suboptimal FW chipset from ricoh
<persia> The driver is so bad you need RT constraints to be able to stream audio?
<rlameiro> at low latencies 
<rlameiro> its a chipset problem too
#ubuntustudio-devel 2012-01-23
<len> astraljava: How do I download the new mudita24? I have to add a repo? Which one? Am I downloading a binary or src?
<astraljava> len: The link is in the agenda, but it should http://packages.debian.org/sid/mudita24
<astraljava> len: Scroll down the page, there are the download links to your arch.
<len> astraljava: Thanks
<astraljava> len: I have no idea whether the deps have changed much, so it might be a little hard if you need a long chain of those.
<astraljava> len: I intend to install real debian sid on the machine where I have that card.
<astraljava> But also precise, so I can catch any differences in the behaviour of the app that might exist between the distros.
<len> astraljava: downloaded and installed in 12.04 US jan 21. No problems with depends.
<len> It runs long enough to say "No ICE1712 cards found"... which is true enough. Gotta try it down stairs.
<len> It installs a file in /usr/share/menu/ but we need a mudita24.desktop file to go in /usr/share/applications/ for it to show on our menu.
<len> This is a problem with the current version in ubuntu too.
<ScottL> len, we could file a bug against it and perhaps even in debian since we have synced from there
<len_> astraljava: ScottL: Installed mudita24 1.0.4 and tried it out.
<len_> I tried it side by side with envy24control.
<len_> !st note: envy24control has the same problem a gcdmaster
<ubottu> len_: I am only a bot, please don't think I'm intelligent :)
<len_>  It's old and I got this...
<len_> Gtk-WARNING **: GtkSpinButton: setting an adjustment with non-zero page size is deprecated
<len_> mudita24 1.0.4 has less bugs than 1.0.3 (slider sizes for example)
<len_> Any control I move in mudita24 moves the same control in envy24control
<len_> So they seem to point at the same stuff.
<len_> The big difference I see is that mudita24 only uses -48db to 0db in the monitor section
<len_> but envy24control uses more (60 db?) I don't know how much more as envy24 doesn't give db.
<len_> So when the monitor control is moved from off to -48 on mudita24 (one step) envy24 shows a huge jump.
<len_> this is true of both 1.* versions and I don't think it is a bug
<len_> I think it was done on purpose (may have read that somewhere) to make the best use of the control length.
<len_> Remember this is monitoring only. The adc and dac control go full scale.
<len_> I will file a bug against mudita24 in ubuntu for the missing desktop file.
<len_> I copied the above to the list.
 * abogani waves all
<abogani> I have just updated -lowlatency and -realtime kernels.
<scott-work> i would like to get the LTS proposal resolved, does anyone object to me shooting an email to the mailing list later today so we can start discussion and get as broad of spectrum of feedback as possible?
<scott-work> oh, and good morning everyone
<ailo_> Good morning scott-work 
<ailo_> I'm a popular guy in Debian Multimedia mail lists
<ailo_> I sort of cross posted to three different mail lists about the same stuff
<ailo_> I just find it hard to know where to post sometimes
<ailo_> And it doesn't make things easy when people keep multiple mail lists for the same team
<ailo_> I understand separating bugs from other posts, but it can get a little crazy too
<ailo_> There's a discussion going on about audio group, and whether it should be renamed
<ailo_> After thinking about it, I feel like it's time to push for having all normal users being members of that group by default
<ailo_> If it would be done in Debian, then sooner or later I would hope most popular Debian/Ubuntu based distros would have it
<ailo_> And that would be the end of realtime privilege configuration issues
<ailo_> First I want to see where the discussion about whether or not audio is a proper name for the group ends up
<scott-work> ailo_: i'm relieved to know that you are involved and pursuing this :)
<scott-work> i remember there had been discussion about renaming this group as well, perhaps to "realtime" or something similar
<scott-work> i think if all users were part of the "audio" group that it would design the problem away
<scott-work> but i will defer those who know more about security, etc (which i expect to be the debian people)
<scott-work> however, we still may need to make an ad hoc fix for this release (at least) WRT to new, additional users and the live users
<ailo_> scott-work: Yeah, whatever changes are made in Debian will likely not end up in this release of Ubuntu
<astraljava> ailo: Just a heads-up, alessio is pushing yet another version of mudita24 into sid. I'll poke you guys when it's landed. This time he's trying to fix the meters.
<astraljava> I'd hilight len as well, but he doesn't seem to be online ATM.
<ailo> astraljava: What about the meters?
<ailo> astraljava: Are you reffering to this http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=655708?
<ubottu> Debian bug 655708 in mudita24 "mudita24: meters don't work" [Normal,Fixed]
<scott-work> astraljava: did you see my pm earlier?
<astraljava> scott-work: Most likely not. The server had rebooted, so I've lost all that. Except, it could be logged. I'll look into that soon.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2012-01-24
<len> astraljava: Looked at the bugwork for the latest mudita bug #655708
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 655708 in smb2www (Ubuntu) "package smb2www 980804-38 failed to install/upgrade: subprocess installed post-installation script returned error exit status 1" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/655708
<len> Opps wrong bug set. anyway. It looks like it is an amd64 issue. 
<len> The meters seemed to work fine on what I tested...
<len> It seemed to indicate it was all the meters.
<astraljava> ailo: len: Yeah, I was referring to the new snapshot which is now in sid. mudita24_1.0.3+svn13-3
<len> And? You would like?
<len> astraljava: I can't test the amd64 version. Just the x86.
<astraljava> len: Where do you live?
<len> Courtenay BC on Vancouver Island.
<astraljava> len: http://ftp.us.debian.org/debian/pool/main/m/mudita24/mudita24_1.0.3+svn13-3_i386.deb
<micahg> len: I think you meant debian 655708
<ubottu> Debian bug 655708 in mudita24 "mudita24: meters don't work" [Normal,Fixed] http://bugs.debian.org/655708
<astraljava> Obviously
 * micahg was just demoing the bot for next time :)
<len> Is there anything in particular you me to test it for?
<astraljava> Yup, got it. :)
<astraljava> len: Well, just that that's the latest in sid now.
<astraljava> len: I'm not sure about whether the meter issue happens for everyone, so if they worked for you, that's great. Please test the latest, though.
<len> I figured I had done it wrong. If I just say bug it figures ubuntu, but if I say debian bug that works too. OK
<astraljava> len: Yeah, it defaults to ubuntu, being that we're in that namespace.
<astraljava> I believe there are other bug trackers as well, for instance gnome and kde.
<len> Is there a web page with irc instructions?
<len> BTW, these all seem to think they are version 1.0.4 mudita24
<astraljava> ubottu.com lists the different factoids, but it's interface is a little... meh.
<astraljava> scott-work: No, unfortunately the server seems to have dropped that pm. Please report.
<astraljava> repost*
<len> astraljava: The latest mudita24 seems to work fine. I found no issues with it.
<len> I am guessing it is compiled static?
<len> Or are the libs from US 10.04 still mostly the same to 12.04?
<astraljava> I'm not sure static compiling is in fashion in debian or derivatives. The depends list isn't long, and probably not too quickly progressing. Are you installing the snapshot on lucid, then?
<len> I did.
<len> I did the first snap on both that and 12.04
<len> Both went without complaints.
<ailo> Good morning everyone
<ailo> What are doing up so late/early, astraljava? :P
<astraljava> Listening to Sharks @ Oilers.
<astraljava> Well, as I said, the depends are quite generous, and don't really require the latest 'n' greatest. Lucid truly fulfills them all.
<len> Looking at the work flow web page https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/Workflows/Audio
<len> The workflow with audacity is wrong. (I think)
<len>  It should use jackd.
<len> I know it is more trouble to set up, but... PA does funny things with it.
<len> I found that if I set up levels with anything other than pulse tools, that pulse would change the levels as soon as play is hit
<len> For example, recording a conversation with a mic.
<len> I have found that my mic boost at +20db gives more noise than at 30db.
<len> so I would set it to 30 and the capture a bit lower to compensate or I might set it at 10 with the capture full up.
<len> As soon as I hit record, audacity asks pulse for a port and pulse sets the levels to default...
<len> Jack doesn't have this feature.
<etneg_> hi
<micahg> ScottL: sorry, my piloting got pushed back a day or two, but I'll get your stuff in as soon as I do it
<ailo> We may be getting somewhere with rt priv for users, administered by installing jack
<ailo> http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=656910
<ubottu> Debian bug 656910 in jackd2 "Group "audio" is used for two incompatible things" [Normal,Open]
<holstein> "It's a discussion that started at the Ubuntu devel mailing list and it's
<holstein> about a lack of knowledge, that changing the groups name would make no
<holstein> difference with PAM and that there could be different
<holstein> multi-user-accesses, several users using the PC one after the other or
<holstein> at the same time and this would effect the usage of audio."
<holstein> sorry for the flood
<ailo> Yea, I'm not too concerned with that though
<ailo> I'm only in this to get realtime priv by installing jack directly
<ailo> Seems like it could be happening
<astraljava> I really don't understand the hassle with this, though. These kinds of machines are quite separated from normal desktop usage, no? Is it not possible to use a separate user that belongs to audio group, and you just acknowledge the impossibility of fast-user-switching when that special user is logged in?
<ailo> Why make things difficult?
<ailo> When it could be so simple
<astraljava> David's email suggests it's not that simple.
<ailo> astraljava: He suggests two things. One, that the name is already taken - no worries, we can change it. 2. when using jack in realtime, you can't access the sound device with multiple users -  np
<ailo> The group itself doesn't do anything until it's used
<ailo> I don't know if there could be any security issued with having a default "audio" group for all users
<ailo> So far, I have not seen anything that would say it is
<holstein> what are the chances... someone knows that our users are in the audio group by default.. can they do something malicious with that remotely?
<ailo> Only if they become a user
<holstein> can some audio playing create a security concern?
<astraljava> Right. Well, I really don't have any passion in dealing with this matter. No one needs to use my machine that handles these issues, so I'll just tune it so that it suits my work flow, and be done with it.
<astraljava> holstein: Some mp3 vulnerabilities have emerged at some point.
<ailo> There is another thing that might need to be changed too
<astraljava> holstein: But I really don't think that's a very high profile impact in any case.
<ailo> The group for firewire devices in the ffado rules file
<ailo> Not sure how that works
<ailo> holstein: Can you use firewire in non-realtime with jack, if you're not a member of audio group - I don't remember
<holstein> ailo: i need to try again
<holstein> when we do more testing int 12.04
<holstein> used to be, no
<holstein> had to be audio and video
<holstein> or do some other permissions hacking
<ailo> holstein: Since 11.10 we only need to be apart of audio group to get realtime with firewire
<holstein> ailo: i need to actually fire it up and confirm.. that would help i suppose
<ailo> Nothing else needed, since there's a udev rules file for ffado devices
<ailo> But, I'm wondering if you can use the device in non realtime, even when you're not a member of audio group
<holstein> i dont think it will take much for US to get back on top
<ailo> Since, the ffado devices also point to @audio
<ailo> I think US could do much more
<holstein> we'll see
<ailo> But, now I'm finding that a regular Ubuntu install will already be a good system for multimedia
<holstein> these little details are the things i think it has been missing
<ailo> This is what I've been concerned with from the start. The base.
<ailo> The kernel, realtime..
<holstein> we gotta have it
<holstein> i feel like so much of the community is jaded about US
<holstein> and rightly so
<ailo> The situation is improving now
<holstein> you mention it in #ardour for example, and its still like.. "yeah, well what do you expect"
<holstein> if we have done our part to make it work properly, or what we consider to be proper, and folks just dont like it, thats fine
<ailo> Yeah, but there's been a lack of developers, as has been noted before, and that just makes things difficult
<holstein> i wish a few of the folks complaining about it had stepped in
<holstein> it really wouldnt take much help from a few of those savvy ardour folk... but whatever
<holstein> i know they are busy
<ailo> If I had nothing else I needed to do in life, I'd gladly spend the rest of my life coding GNU apps
<falktx> ailo: me too
<falktx> If only there was a way to get rich easily... err...
<ailo> falktx: If you spend all your time coding, all you need is a heated nice house, a working computer that is not too noisy, and some food to keep you going
<falktx> ailo: well, that needs money...
<falktx> that is the main issue
<falktx> I surely don't have a 'heated nice house', my house super cold
<falktx> or super hot in the summer
<falktx> anyway
<falktx> scott-work: ScottL: ping
<scott-work> hi falktx 
<falktx> hey
<falktx> scott-work: you only ping me when I'm about to leave...
<falktx> scott-work: I may still have some minutes, what is the state of live-installer/ubiquity patch?
<scott-work> falktx: astraljava has expressed interest in it
<scott-work> falktx: what i would like to do is get a list of things needed and by when and then as a group look at it
<scott-work> falktx: then we can decide who really should work on it to get all things done by the desired due date
<falktx> ok
<falktx> scott-work: do you know what is needed to do?
<falktx> I assume we're creating an ubiquity package variant
<falktx> with US slideshows and text
<falktx> then a page with checkboxes for installing/enable workflows
<falktx> scott-work: is that correct?
<scott-work> falktx: i think that is the general thrust of it
<scott-work> although it probably will be staged
<scott-work> i.e. get the ubiquity plugin to work first
<scott-work> then work up the slides
<scott-work> but just use the existing edubuntu slides for the time being
<falktx> scott-work: sounds good. is this anything still keeping us from doing this?
<falktx> *is there
<scott-work> falktx:  not really, just someone spending time doing it
<scott-work> falktx: although i think we were more or less waiting until cjwatson got the live-dvd up and running
<falktx> ok
<falktx> scott-work: I will want until you ping me about this then
<falktx> I'll be glad to help
<falktx> scott-work: is there anything I can do right now?
<scott-work> falktx:   thank you
<scott-work> falktx: tonight i will send an email to the mailing list about what i think are outstanding items
<scott-work> falktx: let me do that and then we can start making sure priorities are correct and then start assigning people
<scott-work> falktx: so hopefully in the next day or two we will know better
<falktx> ok, great
<scott-work_> did my last comment about the live-dvd make it to the channel?  webchat hung up for me
<scott-work_> TheMuso: have you had a chance to look at the lowlatency kernel at all?
<scott-work_> TheMuso: do i need to redo the kernel for the new version?
<scott-work_> TheMuso: do i need to worry about "component mismatch" and "no original tarball" warnings?
<ailo> Just read about HUD
<scott-work_> ailo: what is HUD?
<scott-work_> i'm only aware of Heads Up Display
<ailo> scott-work_: The new menu system Ubuntu is developing for 12.04
<ailo> Search based. You start typing, and options appear
<ailo> It seems strange at first, but after having gotten used to Gnome3, and it's menu (which is sort of similar to Unity), it does really speed things up a lot
<ailo> You can find things intuitively
<scott-work_> did anyone see that i said that cjwatson has built the live-dvd image?
<scott-work_> i presume it should be built tonight and available tomorrow through the automated build system
<scott-work_> this might change the directory name so some links may not work possibly
<ailo> scott-work_: Nice
<ailo> scott-work_: btw, just to clarify. Menus for programs, not the program menu. 
<scott-work_> email sent to the list about the remaining work items for precise
<scott-work_> astraljava: i tried various times to PM you but didn't get a response so i just made the work items list and mailed it
#ubuntustudio-devel 2012-01-25
<len> ScottL: I am downloading the live iso. The alt doesn't seem to be updating any more. (probably correct)
<ScottL> ailo__, i think it's amazing that an email such as yours can generate so much response from so many deeply involved people in jack
<falktx> where?
<ScottL> not that it's you specifically, but rather than everyman can do such a thing and perhaps start the discussion that causes a fundamental and sweeping changes
 * falktx is missing the action
<ScottL> falktx, it's on the ubuntustudio-devel mailing list
<falktx> hm, that wasn't much
<ScottL> my description or the mail thread?
<falktx> the mail thread
<falktx> the LAU list went flamewar mode recently with the bitwig thing
<falktx> http://linuxaudio.org/mailarchive/lau/187469/search/subject
<falktx> and I'm not sure if that is all
<ScottL> oh crap, it's on jack-devel mailing list
<ScottL> but you have to be subscribed to get it
<ScottL> falktx, i posted a thread about the work items left for precise
<ScottL> falktx, i'm hoping that either you or astraljava will handle the ubiquity plugin
<falktx> ScottL: can you see this page? -> http://lists.jackaudio.org/private.cgi/jack-devel-jackaudio.org/2012-January/008966.html
<falktx> I need to check how easy/hard the ubiquity work is
<ScottL> falktx, yes, i can see that page
<falktx> ScottL: ah, then you got the jack devel ML thread about this
<ScottL> falktx, yes that was the one i was talking about
<falktx> ah, then yes, it generated a lot of response
<ScottL> i like seeing torben, paul, nedko, et al in their talking about it....it just might make a huge difference
<TheMuso> ScottL: I will get to the kernel tonight hopefully, been rather busy, and after the rally, the weekend was the first time I had time off since I got back so did very little.
<TheMuso> ScottL: As for the jack-dev thread, how is it progressing?
<TheMuso> Ultimately, jack shoudl use consolekit/whatever does consolekit functionality, like systemd et al... *shudder*
<ScottL> looks like live-dvd is building now :)  http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/ubuntustudio/dvd/
<ScottL> i look forward to hearing len_ 's experience with it
<falktx> woot! the magic happened
<falktx> US live dvd
<Len_on_live_dvd> Well, ScottL and all, the live DVD boots.
<falktx> yay!
<Len_on_live_dvd> I was able to boot from the SD in the side slot but still got a K panic when I tried to connect to net.
<Len_on_live_dvd> Switched it to usb adaptor and it is ok.
<Len_on_live_dvd> Um, this is no good...
<Len_on_live_dvd> audio:x:29:pulse
<Len_on_live_dvd> mudita24 not found
<Len_on_live_dvd> foo yc20, I'm not running it now, but when I have tried it before. Seems to use a LOT of cpu
<Len_on_live_dvd> So much that virtkeyboard misses key press/release events.
<ScottL> Len_on_live_dvd, that is awesome :)
<Len_on_live_dvd> I think I will try the live install now....
<ScottL> i'm curious to how the performance will be from the dvd as well
<Len_on_live_dvd> Hard to tell. Jack does run even with no audio group.
<Len_on_live_dvd> This little netbook is maybe not the best test.
<Len_on_live_dvd> a2jmidid gives:Cannot use real-time scheduling
<ailo__> Len_on_live_dvd: jack runs in realtime without audio group?
<Len_on_live_dvd> virtkeybd -> a2j->zynjacku->calforgan->jackd gives clear sound no bad messages in jackd logging
<Len_on_live_dvd> Wed Jan 25 03:59:12 2012: JACK server starting in realtime mode with priority 10
<ailo__> ScottL: I'm invigorated by the fact that a simple question can get people to start talking, but that really only shows that it has already been on peoples minds, but no one was putting it in priority yet. Perhaps something comes out from it. At least it seems the jackd package might administer the audio group for us when it is updated next time.
<ailo__> Len_on_live_dvd: It just seems impossible that it would run without audio group. 
<ailo__> I will give it a try as well
<ailo__> Len_on_live_dvd: Give a link to the download :P
<Len_on_live_dvd> I'll have to find it again...
<Len_on_live_dvd> http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/ubuntustudio/dvd/current/
<Len_on_live_dvd> ailo__ ^^^
<ailo__> Len_on_live_dvd: Thanks!
<Len_on_live_dvd> hmm, ubuntu-studio@ubuntu-studio:/media$ sudo bash
<Len_on_live_dvd> root@ubuntu-studio:/media# 
<ailo__> Len_on_live_dvd: That explains it :)
<falktx> rm -rf /media/*
<ailo__> Oh, I missed the command :P
<falktx> ailo__: live-user is like a normal user, but doesn't have password
<falktx> don't confuse that
<falktx> it's still like a admin user, like it was installed
<ailo__> falktx: I'm still wondering about how he's getting realtime without being in audio group
<falktx> but because password is blank, you won't need to type password
<falktx> so:
<falktx> sudo echo 1
<falktx> will always work on live-dvd
<falktx> ailo__: he's not, I would bet
<Len_on_live_dvd> I am not sure if I have realtime or not a2j says not.
<ailo__> Len_on_live_dvd: jackd starts in realtime by default, but you could try to give it the --realtime argument just to be sure
<falktx> Len_on_live_dvd: there's an option for force realtime and fail if not possible (I think)
<falktx> maybe it was in my dreams...?
<Len_on_live_dvd> sorry doing some copying in case my install does something weird.
<Len_on_live_dvd> ubuntu-studio@ubuntu-studio:~$ cat .jackdrc
<Len_on_live_dvd> /usr/bin/jackd -dalsa -dhw:0 -r44100 -p1024 -n2
<falktx> Len_on_live_dvd: you're missing '-R' or -r, don't know which
<falktx> hm, I don't even have jackd here!
<falktx> :)
 * falktx is fully working on jackdbus only mode for weeks now
<Len_on_live_dvd> ubuntu-studio@ubuntu-studio:~$ /usr/bin/jackd -dalsa -dhw:0 -r44100 -p1024 -n2 --realtime
<Len_on_live_dvd> gives:
<Len_on_live_dvd> jackdmp 1.9.7
<Len_on_live_dvd> Copyright 2001-2005 Paul Davis and others.
<Len_on_live_dvd> Copyright 2004-2011 Grame.
<Len_on_live_dvd> jackdmp comes with ABSOLUTELY NO WARRANTY
<Len_on_live_dvd> This is free software, and you are welcome to redistribute it
<Len_on_live_dvd> under certain conditions; see the file COPYING for details
<Len_on_live_dvd> Cannot create thread 1 Operation not permitted
<Len_on_live_dvd> Cannot create thread 1 Operation not permitted
<falktx> ah, so no rt privileges
<Len_on_live_dvd> Yet qjackctl has the realtime box checked.
<Len_on_live_dvd> It must play some games with things.
<falktx> Len_on_live_dvd: jack no longer "not starts" when rt is enabled but not possible
<Len_on_live_dvd> But it does write a sane .jackdrc
<falktx> Len_on_live_dvd: because rt is default
<Len_on_live_dvd> OK
<falktx> Len_on_live_dvd: if you disable rt, you'll see changes
<falktx> later
<holstein> W0W!
<holstein> im downloading an ubuntustudio live CD!
<ailo__> holstein: Do you have a firewire device around?
<holstein> ailo__: i do, but i cant get to it tonite
<holstein> it'll take another 50 minutes do DL
<ailo__> holstein: Would be great if you could check if it runs without realtime - ah :)
<holstein> ailo__: yeah... im excited about tryint it out!
<holstein> i always thought it was interesting how with the 64studio live CD, firewire worked
<holstein> you install... and it didnt
<holstein> i mean, out of the box
<Len_on_live_dvd> The slide show has some stuff on it we don't use.
<Len_on_live_dvd> It also has at least one page where the continue/go back buttons are below the screen.
<holstein> Len_on_live_dvd: the installer slide show?
<Len_on_live_dvd> The page where it asks for your picture is too big for a netbook.... whats with that anyway?
<holstein> is your screen tiny?
<Len_on_live_dvd> netbook sized.
<Len_on_live_dvd> 11inch?
<Len_on_live_dvd> Ja the slides need to be changed
<holstein> wonder if we can do that...
<holstein> is that all ubiquity?
<Len_on_live_dvd> I have yet to get anything that asks what work flows I want
<holstein> Len_on_live_dvd: that could be on the way still
<Len_on_live_dvd> The slides are standard ubuntu stuff. Ubuntu one, libre office etc
<holstein> we gotta grab it from edubuntu and have it changed
<Len_on_live_dvd> Yes it would be very confusing being told there was all this stuff being loaded and it not being there.
<holstein> yeah, not a deal breaker for me though
<Len_on_live_dvd> I got the idea though that at this stage we would be happy if it worked.
<holstein> i hopw its editable
<holstein> hope*
<holstein> i gotta crash... got about 40 minutes left on the DL
<holstein> im *so* excited about it!
<Len_on_live_dvd> The slideshow is in /usr/share/ubiquity-slideshow
<Len_on_live_dvd> if you go to the /slides dir and run index.html in firefox you get the same thing.
<Len_on_live_dvd> This is on the live cd directories. I am sure it won't be on the installed version
<Len_on_live_dvd> So it  looks like an impress slide show exported to html
<Len_on_live_dvd> It should be easy to replace. One of the packages in the dvd or live dvd is a slide show package.
<Len_on_live_dvd> synaptic shows many ubiquity-slideshows... we just have to make our own.
<Len_on_live_dvd> there is one for edubuntu, kubuntu, lubuntu, ubuntu (the one we have) and xubuntu.
<Len_on_live_dvd> If we get rid of that picture taking thing, all the frames will fit on a netbook. I should file a bug against ubuiquity though. for not fitting. Is that picture thing in all of them?
<Len_on_live_dvd> Anyway, I am going to see what this thing loaded. There was never a time to select work flows yet. So that is missing
<len_> Ok, now on the installed version of things.
<len_> /usr/share/xgreeters/default.desktop link is still missing. Are we sure this not some theme change we have made?
<len_> The live dvd seems to have installed all the work flows.
<len_> just checking synaptic...
<len_> synaptic shows ubuntustudio-audio not installed.
<len_> Maybe because all it's deps are already in something else?
<len_> audio:x:29:pulse,len   ... good
<len_> Even still jackd did not start the first time.
<len_> jack says Tue Jan 24 22:02:15 2012: ERROR: Cannot use real-time scheduling (RR/10)(1: Operation not permitted)
<len_> Tue Jan 24 22:02:15 2012: ERROR: AcquireSelfRealTime error
<len_> Jack quit the first time with:
<ailo__> So, we need to add the live user to audio group
<len_> 22:02:19.893 Could not connect to JACK server as client. - Overall operation failed. - Server communication error. Please check the messages window for more info.
<len_> This is with the user in the audio group still no rt
<len_> but status says: Realtime Mode: Yes?
<ailo__> len_: Could be some hassle with pa as well
<ailo__> len_: You installed it on disk now?
<len_> could be
<ailo__> Oh, you said that
<ailo__> len_: You have the file /etc/security/limits.d/audio.conf in place, right?
<len_> pulse is connected through jack ok.
<len_> let me check
<len_> len@ustudio1204:/etc/security/limits.d$ ls
<len_> audio.conf.disabled  ubuntustudio-audio-rtprio.conf
<ailo__> len_: Oh, there's a special us file there.
<len_> That could be it......
<len_> So thats two missing files
<ailo__> len_: I haven't installed US since oneiric pre-final, so I've missed out on some things
<ailo__> len_: No, it looks  like US is disabling the normal jackd file by introducing its own
<ailo__> len_: You could check the contents of both
<len_> ailo__ my problem is that I don't really know enough about setting jack up
<ailo__> It's important that audo.conf.disable actually does not have @audio in use
<ailo__> len_: audio.conf is the file that makes it possible to use realtime for users belonging to audio group
<len_> is there supposed to be a link to the us file maybe?
<len_> I'll try
<ailo__> len_: Just check the contents of both
<ailo__> len_: cat /etc/security/limits.d/*
<len_>  cat *
<len_> # Installed by the ubuntustudio-audio package
<len_> @audio   -  rtprio     99
<len_> # Provided by the jackd package.
<len_> #
<len_> # Changes to this file will be preserved.
<len_> #
<len_> # If you want to enable/disable realtime permissions, run
<len_> #
<len_> #    dpkg-reconfigure -p high jackd
<len_> @audio   -  rtprio     95
<len_> @audio   -  memlock    unlimited
<len_> #@audio   -  nice      -19
<len_> # Installed by the ubuntustudio-audio package
<len_> @audio   -  rtprio     99
<ailo__> len_: It seems audio.conf is not diabled
<ailo__> Instead there are two files trying to do the same thing
<ailo__> Renaming the files doesn't matter
<ailo__> Those two lines are what makes jack able to use realtime and lock memory
<ailo__> For users belonging to audio group
<ailo__> If you change @audio to something else, you just make sure the user is member of that group
<len_> Ok, so I need to get rid of one of these files?
<ailo__> len_: Only one of them is tuning rtprio. I would guess memlock is tuned by one of them. Having two makes it a guessing game which is in use
<ailo__> I don't really see the point in having a US specific file there at all
<ailo__> No unless it is doing something worth while
<ailo__> Like, setting memlock to something else than unlimited, but then it would require a script that checks memory size at boot time and sets it to a good value each time you log in
<len_> The second one just has the one line in it. Is 99 a better setting than 95?
<ailo__> len_: I don't think it matters a lot
<ailo__> Ralph seems to think so. I haven't really made any tests to find out
<len_> I'm one of those, "I just want something that works"
<len_> I don't really know what all these things do.
<ailo__> len_: memlock unlimited can be dangerous, if you run out of memory
<ailo__> Or, it can lock up the system
<len_> I can figure that
<ailo__> But, you can never know how much memory a user has, so in order to find out, you would need a script
<ailo__> I will take up this with the jack packagers
<len_> OK
<ailo__> ScottL: Do you know when /etc/security/limits.d/ubuntustudio-audio-rtprio.conf was introduced, and why?
<ailo__> len_: Actually, it is probably disabled
<ailo__> len_: I guess the file must end with .conf. Not sure
<len_> So we lose memlock then
<ailo__> len_: I would need to test it to find out
<len_> Should have looked around more while on live dvd ailo__
<ailo__> Not sure how much not having memlock affects performance. Never bothered to find out. Not sure if the file must end with .conf
<len_> ailo__: I'm going to have to pack it up for the night.
<len_> later all.
<live-ailo> There is some trouble with dbus and zeitgeist. Takes up a lot of the CPU
<live-ailo> Couldnt get PA working with jack. They connect, but no sound
<live-ailo> jack was working alright
<live-ailo> no realtime of course
<scott-work> ailo:  re: /etc/security/limits.d/ubuntustudio-audio-rtprio.conf
<scott-work> ailo: i don't know when it was introduced, who did it, or why they thought it was necessary
<scott-work> my best suggestion at this moment is to install he ubuntustudio-audio source and grep 'ubuntustudio-audio-rtprio.conf'
<scott-work> i would guess it's in an .install file somewhere, but i would guess there is a significant chance i am wrong as well :P
<scott-work> oh, by the way, i added a 'build environment' to the seeds similar to all other *buntu versions that have live cd/dvd
<scott-work> this would allow us to have gcc and a few others to build drivers and whatnot
<scott-work> for testing and debugging within the live environment
<scott-work>  
<scott-work> i admit that it wasn't some brilliant idea of mine, i simply saw it in the ubuntu/xubuntu desktop seeds :P
<ailo> scott-work: I would suggest to take that file away
<ailo> I've put a suggestion to Debian Multimedia, the guys packaging jack if they could use a script to make memlock less than limited
<ailo> The problem with having two files is that you can easily get things mixed up
<ailo> Depending on which order you install stuff
<scott-work> ailo: i completely agree, i'm going to poke a few people who i think might have knowledge about it before simply removing it, i will check the source package tonight and see if i can find any clues to the author
<scott-work> as well
<scott-work> i suppose it could have been added to either the jackd package or the qjackctl package, i know that david h. has added bits of "plumbing" code (e.g. jackdbus) to the qjackctl package
<ailo> scott-work: I tried the live DVD today. There's probably a Ubuntu bug that makes dbus not behave well, so I had some performance problems, but other than that, and of course it's not finished yet, it worked well
<scott-work> ailo: yay!
<ailo> scott-work: The file suggests it was added by ubuntustudio-audio
<scott-work> looking at qjackctl you can see quite a lot of changes to make it play nicer with pulseaudio:  https://code.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-branches/ubuntu/precise/qjackctl/precise
<ailo> scott-work: I never got sound from pa, and flash-player hung, so I guess it's not perfectly functional yet
<ailo> I mean, while jack was running
<scott-work> ailo: ubuntustudio-controls could be used to add users and include them in the 'audio' group
<scott-work> this was a thought i had several days ago but was reluctant to inject this thought into the email thread
<scott-work> quite frankly, some will disagree with adding another methodology to add users to a system, but this might warrant it
<scott-work> with the warning caveats mentioned in the last email about 'this person is being added to the 'audio' group which could be dangerous'
<scott-work> 'for more information and education, see _this_ wiki page"
<scott-work>  
<scott-work> what i would like to do is for various people to do some comprehensive testing and come up with a list of problems that we can address as a group
<scott-work> for the live-dvd, i mean
<scott-work> if we need to contact cjwatson about items, i think he would prefer it if we were to poke him once with a list, rather than poke him several times with singular items
<scott-work> astraljava: are you around?
<ailo> scott-work: Since the debian packager is going to do that for us, so need for us to bother with audio group
<scott-work> holstein and len:  the ubiqiuty slideshow is on the precise work items:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/Roadmap
<ailo> scott-work: Besides, audio group will not be used for jack anymore
<ailo> It'll be rtprio or something like that
<scott-work> ailo: i don't remember what they said they would, i'm about to go to an all day meeting so i'll refresh my memory later
<ailo> There will probably be a jack-common package that handles that stuff
<scott-work> ailo: super cool, that would be nice, and i do remember that
<ailo> scott-work: Here's what's going on so far http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=656910
<ubottu> Debian bug 656910 in jackd2 "Group "audio" is used for two incompatible things" [Normal,Open]
<scott-work> ailo: would you look at the work items for precise (https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/Roadmap) and see if there is something that you will head up?
<ailo> scott-work: I'm not that sure having sane jack settings is required. The default settings are great in my opinion
<ailo> Besides, everyone will want to tune those anyway
<ailo> scott-work: I wasn't supposed to get involved that much. I really don't have a lot of time
<ailo> I have a deadline and need to do a lot of work for that
<ailo> Both school and for our band
<ailo> These last days have been a sort of detour
<ailo> I would have really liked to work on us-controls exclusively, but I just don't have the time for it
<ailo> Maybe one or two release into the future, if one will be required
<falktx> ScottL: ping
<scott-work> falktx: sorry i missed your ping, storm took computers/internet down for a bit
<ailo> scott-work: Lot of mutants in your area?
<falktx> scott-work: I don't know where to find the required stuff to work on ubiquity
<scott-work> ailo: i don't think so (?)
<falktx> scott-work: is this on ubuntustudio bzr?
<ailo> scott-work: since you said storm was around there
<scott-work> falktx: look in the notes in this blueprint:  https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/other-p-ubuntustudio-livedvd
<scott-work> falktx: there isn't any bzr branches at this point
<scott-work> falktx: any *ubuntustudio* bzr branches at this point, i should have said
<scott-work> ailo: reading the log i see you mentioned the jack default settings
<scott-work> ailo:  i think jack had been coming in with 1024 frames a sec
<scott-work> ailo: i think we can improve the "works out of the box" appeal by adjusting the setting a bit
<scott-work> especially if we get the -lowlatency kernel
<scott-work> falktx: if you have specific questions about ubiquity you can always talk to stephane graber who is the author and lead on edubuntu, great guy and bloody brilliant
<scott-work> nice as well :)
<ailo> ScottL: Not everyone will have a -lowlatency kernel. I think it would be better to take up the case with those who package qjackctl, so we don't end up with tuneup on tuneup
<ailo> scott-work: Not everyone will have a -lowlatency kernel. I think it would be better to take up the case with those who package qjackctl, so we don't end up with tuneup on tuneup
<ailo> Personally, I don't see why it is a big deal.
<ailo> It's just a parameter
<scott-work> ailo: i had originally considered a ubuntu studio specific file that was installed only during ubuntu studio ISO install as to not overwrite someone's already existing jack settings
<ailo> Not meant to be static
<scott-work> ailo: because there are people who aren't linux specialists  or geeks and want it to "just work"
<scott-work> it would certainly be a better selling point if an install worked right out of the box (albeit not as good as it could be) rather than if it was completely unusable
<ailo> scott-work: I don't think you achieve that by changing jack settings. It would be better for software to automatically interact with jack (meaning you don't need to start it manually), and also that the software is able to set jack settings live
<ailo> Beam yourself up, Scotty :P
<ailo> scott-work: What is missing for non-geeks is better interfaces. Fewer controls that are pedagogically named.
<ailo> Allthough, overwriting a file is not a big deal
<ailo> There should be a super-simple jack-control
<ailo> Most people only need to start it and set latency
<ailo> I suppose falktx would be able to make one, since he's already been doing that type of thing
<ailo> scott-work: You seem to be on a mission to find a garage-band scenario for Ubuntu Studio
<ailo> Unfortunately there are no apps like that
<ailo> And the apps that are available are not meant to be garage-band
<scott-work> ailo: no, that is not the desire.  it is completely untenable given the number of hardware available and could be used
<ailo> To use them, you simply must learn how to use them
<scott-work> ailo: however, that does not preclude trying to make ubuntu studio more accessible to the less technically minded, as quite a few musicians are
<falktx> ailo: if all goes well, I may be able to get Cadence beta1 ready for 12.04
<ailo> I see three cases for non technical users. 1. they only use jack with one piece of software. They only need to start jack and set latency. 2. They use more than one app, and also need to connect them. 3. They want to use multiple apps and save the session as well
<ailo> In which case, you need 1. start/stop controls 2. simple latency parameter 3. connect window 4. session save/load
<falktx> I have it all I guess
<ailo> falktx: But you have more too, right?
<falktx> yes
<falktx> ailo: problem is jack1 with no-dbus support
<ailo> I would design the interface, so that those controls I mentioned would be directly in front, while other settings would be hidden
<ailo> And setting latency would be like a slider
<ailo> Numbers and explanation - high latency, medium latency, low latency
<ailo> I haven't looked at Cadence for a while
<ailo> falktx: Why not push it into Debian?
<ailo> I forgot one essential thing: Choosing sound card
<ailo> Choosing sound card with qjackctl is great, but there are more options than most people would need
<scott-work> progress is even better today :)  http://status.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-precise/group/topic-precise-flavor-ubuntu-studio.html
<knome> shiny
<knome> http://status.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-precise/group/topic-precise-flavor-xubuntu.html is not too bad either :)
<micahg> are the -extra packages out of sync breaking anything ATM aside from today's image?  I just want to know if I need to upload now or can wait a few hours
<ScottL> astraljava, ping
<astraljava> ScottL: pong
#ubuntustudio-devel 2012-01-26
<ScottL> astraljava, i wanted to ask you what you which task you are focusing on and let you know that falktx is looking at the ubiquity plugin
<falktx__> it's all still a bit confusing to me, I'm not sure where I should look at...
<ScottL> falktx__, did you look at the blueprint and the notes in there?
<falktx__> yes
<falktx__> don't we already have the basic live-dvd seeds?
<ScottL> aye, we just need to adjust the ubiquity plugin to match our seeds is my understanding
<ScottL> falktx__, but stephane would be a good person to talk to as well
<falktx__> ScottL: do we have a timeline for this?
<ScottL> falktx__, http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-branches/ubuntu/precise/edubuntu-live/precise/files/head:/livecd/ubiquity/
<ScottL> falktx__, hopefull before March 1st - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/Roadmap
<falktx__> ScottL: I'll postpone it to tomorrow morning again
<falktx__> today when I woke up it was already 1pm...
<ScottL> lol :)
<falktx__> hm, the original theme on gtk3 would be cool...
<ScottL> yeah i saw that
<ScottL> how will that work wiht xfce?
<len> ScottL: Forgot to mention this last night. The live DVD install does not ask if jackd should be installed with realtime priv.
<len> The live DVD installs everything. This is why it failed to build with the ffmpeg-extra libs. Once the ability to only install certain workflows is added, the ISO will build.
<len> Just like the alt did, but install may fail in the same way too.
<ScottL> len, a few things to mention
<len> ScottL ok
<ScottL> len, i was going to do the multi-head documentation so it's a little more formalized (although i haven't read your link currently)
<ScottL> noting the testing was done for two use cases
<ScottL> these are the steps used to make it work for both
<ScottL> and these are the packages we tried and these are why they weren't chosen
<ScottL> those type of things
<ScottL> len, i don't have to do them, if you want to that would be great as well
<len> I tried to do a and b, but not really c
<ScottL> but i just want something that users can use but also documents our experience so we don't have to relive this later on
<ScottL> len, there are other things that i wanted to tell you today but i can't remember now that i'm tired :P
<len> If its easier send email
<ScottL> len, i can do that :)
<ScottL> also, don't forget to look at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/Roadmap and commit for something if you can
<ScottL> otherwise i'll end up doing it all myself
<len> I know you must be a few hours ahead of me
<ScottL> it's 22:03 here
<len> 2 hours then
<ScottL> i found the reprio.conf thingie earlier
<ScottL> http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-branches/ubuntu/precise/ubuntustudio-meta/precise/revision/73
<ScottL> this is where it was added, and it was quite a while ago
<ScottL> oct 2010
<len> I think the whole jack permissions thing is being thought about from what I have seen.
<ScottL> yeah, it should be
<ScottL> but for precise we should still fix what we can so it's clean
<ScottL> i think the ubuntustudio-meta (or ubuntustudio-audio within -meta) shouldn't add the other file if jackd is providing what it does
<len> I was wondering though, on the live DVD install if jack is installed with rt permission or not
<ScottL> len, i'm guessing that the live user doesn't have permissions via the audio group
<ScottL> i'm surprised that the installed OS doesn't have -rt permissions though
<ScottL> len, i'm going to test this weekend as well, make a good list, ask others for what they noticed, and then hit up cjwatson about fixing some of it
<len> On alt I get asked if I want rt, but not with live. A problem with ubiquity?
<ScottL> possibly, but i'm not sure about any of that stuff
<ScottL> i know crap about ubiquity, to be honest
<len> ubiquity man page is pretty sparse
<ScottL> i think ubiquity has been called a black box a few times or voodoo or similar
<len> I figured out more looking at its files
<len> I could probably change the slideshow... though not the way it was intended to be changed ;-)
<len>  But the black box comment fits.
<len> ScottL: Gotta go do my sons meds. Ill look for the email.
<ScottL> len, thanks :)
<ScottL> len, check out the guidelines as swell for the slideshow
<ailo> ScottL: len: What happened to me, installing US from the live environment was that the user did not end up in audio group, the jack file /etc/security/limits.d/audio.conf was installed, but renamed. There was no additional US file from the ubuntustudio-audio package
<ailo> The renamed jack file became /etc/security/limits.d/audio.conf.disabled
<ailo> So, no rt priv for user
<len> ailo: Normally at jack install we are asked if we want rt priv. but not with live install.
<ailo> len: True. The installation proceeds as if we have answered yes
<ailo> Whereafter the file that is installed as a consequence to answering yes is overrided
<ailo> When jack asks if we want rt priv, it doesn't actually provide it. It just installs the file that gives rt priv to audio group
<ailo> Namely /etc/security/limits.d/audio.conf
<ailo> I suspect installing the old way (not from the live environment) will put user to audio group
<ailo> If it is the same as it used to be. I realize things have changed a lot since gnome2 install
<ailo> Since it does affect security, I suppose it's bad not getting the question. Perhaps ubiquity is not designed to do this?
<len> ailo: ubiquity docs seem to be pretty sparse
<ScottL> i'm planning on poking cjwatson about this after this weekend to see what else needs addressing
<ScottL> it would appear that only the 64 bit version of ubuntustudio-lightdm-theme is being built currently
<ScottL> but maybe i'm wrong :/
<ScottL> sorry, it appears that only a 32 bit version is being built
<ScottL> is anyone running a 32 bit version of 12.04 currently?   could be ubuntu or xubuntu or *buntu 12.04
<micahg> ScottL: are there binary components in that package?
<ScottL> micahg, do you mean does it generate a .deb file?
<micahg> no
<ScottL> oh, you mean like an image?
<micahg> I mean is there anything compiled in the package?  right now, it's arch: all
<ScottL> this is where i'm looking: https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/precise/+source/ubuntustudio-lightdm-theme/0.2
<micahg> yes, but what's insid
<micahg> e
<ScottL> it looks like 0.1 was never pushed to repos and 0.2 appears to only be i386
<micahg> it's an arch all package (which means architecture independent)
<ScottL> micahg, i'm not sure to be honest, i'll poke around
<ScottL> micahg, doesn't look like it
<micahg> ScottL: it's just conf files, it's fine
<ScottL> just /user and /etc and /debian directories
<ScottL> and conf files unde the first two
<ScottL> oh, you typed that too
<ScottL> sorry, getting a bit tired
<ScottL> but, micahg , if i type 'apt-cache search ubuntustudio-*' i don't get the -lightdm-theme package
<ScottL> i'm on 64 bit install
<ScottL> synaptic can't find it either
<micahg> I see it...
<micahg> is your mirror up to date?
<ScottL> i 'refreshed' in synaptic
<micahg> are you on precise?
<ScottL> but i'll do a sudo apt-get upgrade
<ScottL> errr update
<micahg> it was built almost 3 months ago
<ScottL> errrrr, no
<ScottL> micahg, i'm an idiot, sorry
<ScottL> i'm using oneirc right now on this laptop
<micahg> right, it's precise only
<ScottL> yeah, i see my logic now
<ScottL> i had thought it had been built for oneiric originally
<ScottL> i thought it had been included in the 11.10 ISO actually
<micahg> nope, it was supposed to be, but didn't get sponsored IIRC
<ScottL> as i poked around seeing if rev 2 had been uploaded or not (which would cause the background to not work as it looked) i noticed it wasn't there
<ScottL> yeah, that makes sense
<ScottL> i'm going to install the precise live-dvd by this weekend and look at it
<ScottL> i suppose i could always get the source and build local to see it as well, but i can wait...plus it might not even build properly
<ScottL> me being on oneiric
<ScottL> okay, it's quite a bit past my bedtime, good night
<micahg> ScottL: you can just grab the deb from LP, nothing is really built, so it should work on oneiric as well
<ailo> ScottL: GN Scott
<ailo> We work in shifts
<ailo> I just woke
<ScottL> micahg, oh, i see your point about binaries now, i think
<ailo> ..up
<micahg> yes, the word is overloaded :)
<micahg> I was referring to binary vs text as opposed to binary vs source
<ScottL> i guess i've always viewed .deb files as binaries, but i can see that that isn't the case
<micahg> no, they are :)
<micahg> they're binary packages
<ScottL> oh, okay...i'll think more on this on the morrow ;)
<astraljava> ScottL: Sorry, had fallen asleep already. I don't know, really. I see a lot of tasks have been taken care of, already (thanks guys! You're doing an awesome job!)
<astraljava> ScottL: Maybe we need to have a little discussion on what's most important at the moment, what's been done, and what's essential before the Alpha-2.
<astraljava> ScottL: Informal meeting this Sunday?
<ScottL> astraljava, the roadmap shows what i think is important at this point https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/Roadmap
<ScottL> and it's broken out by milestone
<ScottL> i just want to make sure we are addressing all items remaining, items are prioritized correctly, and we are working effectively across those items
<ScottL> astraljava, i will absolutely be at a meeting this sunday
<ScottL> in about 4.5 hours i will be at my desk for 2 hours (all day meeting except for 2 hours during lunch)
<ScottL> we can talk more about work items during that time if you want
<ScottL> you seem to have vocally committed to many things, which is why i asked falktx to look at the ubiquity plugin since it's a pretty important piece of work currently
<ScottL> if you really want it and will focus on it, then great, we'll get falktx to do something else...because there is plent else to do
<scott-work> micahg: i am thinking clearer now
<astraljava> ScottL: Yeah, that would be good. So that's around 1730 UTC, right?
<scott-work> i know that .deb files are binaries, i can't just open a text file and read them
<scott-work> astraljava:  i don't remember the time we usually do them but i will be there
<scott-work> micahg: and i understand the differentiation you meant on about binaries now, binary vs. text and binary vs source
<scott-work> we we're obviously dealing with source, but within the source we were also only dealing with text within the -lightdm-theme package
<quadrispro> hi guys, I'm sorry to not have much time to spend here having fun with you :) I'm here just to inform you that I've sync'd mudita24 for Precise
<astraljava> scott-work: .deb files are practically just containers. You can extract them with `dpkg -x <filename>.deb`
<astraljava> Well, there's not much point to test the package then, as it's already there. :) Gotta love the guy. Too bad he had to leave.
<ailo> Groups, security.. there's no such thing as a perfect system. There's just what you want to achieve and trying to find an energy efficient way to do that
<ailo> Or should I say, a fun way to do things
<holstein> i like how falk did it with KX
<holstein> it was a bit clunky, though functional, and totally fixed this at install
<ailo> holstein: What bothered me the most was that the desktop was slow
<holstein> ailo: live?
<holstein> it wont be fast
<ailo> Well, it was heavy on the graphics
<ailo> Other than that, it was cool
<holstein> i find it similar to the normal live CD's
<holstein> i should say i havent actually loaded ours up, but thte 64studio one, the new dynebolic, the others too...
<ailo> holstein: I don't think it was only the live CD
<ailo> I mean, loading applications is slow on live CD's, not running them
<ailo> And the graphics should not be slow
<holstein> interesting
<ailo> Especially on a multimedia system
<holstein> i was hoping XFCE would help us a bit
<ailo> The US live DVD was slow for me, but there was some bug having to do with dbus
<ailo> I get it sometimes with my normal Precise install as well
<ailo> The US live DVD was using up a lot of CPU
<holstein> maybe its kernel+your hardware related?
<ailo> Don't think it will later on
<ailo> Nope, it's a bug
<astraljava> ailo: Have you looked through all the normal logs, ie. .xsession-errors, /var/log/syslog and the likes?
<ailo> astraljava: I haven't had time to test it anymore than that. I'll try again at a later stage
<astraljava> ailo: Yeah ok. No rush. I'll try to give it a spin too one of these days.
<scott-work> astraljava: i plan to give the live-dvd a workout this weekend, can you help me with what to look for in the logs?
<scott-work> i want to go to cjwatson early next week with a comprehensive list of things we would like addressed wiht the live-dvd
<astraljava> scott-work: Yeah, I'm planning to do that, too, maybe tomorrow or at least over the weekend.
<quadrispro> hi again guys
<quadrispro> ScottL, are you around?
<quadrispro> scott-work, ehy, maybe this is the right nickname to ping :)
<astraljava> Hey Alessio. And thanks again for your excellent work on mudita24!
<quadrispro> astraljava, thank you! :) I need an ACK from UbuntuStudio's devs to going ahead with bug #922036
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 922036 in glame (Ubuntu) "Audiofile 0.3.x transition" [Medium,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/922036
<astraljava> I'll have a look.
<astraljava> quadrispro: hydrogen is being directly seeded. Do you want us (US) to rebuild and test before proceeding with this?
<quadrispro> astraljava, I tried to rebuild it on (and Ubuntu ships the same version of) Debian before starting the transition for Wheezy
<quadrispro> and that's the result
<quadrispro> http://debomatic64.debian.net/audiofile/hydrogen.log
<quadrispro> so, there would be no pain
<quadrispro> astraljava, would hydrogen be the only package seeded?
<astraljava> quadrispro: I will have to go through the list carefully, but that's the first thing I noticed.
<astraljava> quadrispro: Can I get a list of affected packages in text format somehow from LP?
<astraljava> quadrispro: I mean apart from c&p'ing. :)
<astraljava> quadrispro: Well at least it's now easier to c&p from the bugmail. :)
<astraljava> quadrispro: Yes, hydrogen is the only one directly seeded. I suppose the dependencies should be checked too, though?
<quadrispro> which deps?
<astraljava> quadrispro: Deps for the seeded apps?
<quadrispro> astraljava, everything should be OK
<quadrispro> astraljava, if you want, you could check twice with apt-rdepends
<quadrispro> astraljava, remember to use --reverse, point your attention to the libaudiofile0, that is the binary which will change name
<micahg> I can give you a pastebin of the reverse deps if you like
<astraljava> micahg: That'd be awesome, thanks!
<micahg> hmm...pastebinit is broke, one sec
<astraljava> No rush.
<micahg> nope, Ubuntu pastebin is broke, http://paste.debian.net/153724/
<micahg> FYI, there's also a reverse-depends tool in ubuntu-dev-tools now
<astraljava> Oh cool, will look into that one. Thanks, micahg!
<scott-work> quadrispro: i am here (but will need to run itno a meeting again soon)
<astraljava> micahg: quadrispro: Have I understood it correctly, though, that I should cross-reference that list with ~ubuntu-archive/germinate-output/ubuntustudio.precise/audio-common.depends too?
 * scott-work is reading backscroll now between alessio and janne
<scott-work> looks like astraljava is already handling this :)  thanks janne
<astraljava> scott-work: I'm on it. That doesn't mean it'll be sorted, though. *grin*
<scott-work> lol :)
<scott-work> but at least you can help suss out what is going on currently
<micahg> astraljava: I can do better for you :)
<astraljava> micahg: Oh? Do tell.
<quadrispro> ehy micahg, how are you?
<quadrispro> scott-work, yes, you have understood correctly :)
<micahg> hi quadrispro :)
<micahg> astraljava: http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-archive/germinate-output/ubuntustudio.precise/rdepends/ALL/libaudiofile0
<micahg> quadrispro: I'm good
<micahg> and you?
<micahg> astraljava: as cjwatson keeps telling us, let's not reinvent germinate :)
<astraljava> micahg: Did you have something to do with the libav*-extra* packages? The image failed to build because of those.
<astraljava> micahg: Excellent!
<micahg> astraljava: yes, today's image should be fine
<micahg> as in the one being generated in an hour
<astraljava> micahg: Ahh... sorry, I confused the date.
<astraljava> micahg: And thanks for the lesson-of-the-day, great learning experience. :)
<quadrispro> good, back home just yesterday from Germany, I stayed there with my girlfriend to breathe a bit of European air and now, after a week-off, I've so many things to deal with
<micahg> I was waiting for siretart to upload libav-extra to Debian, but it never happened, I finally poked him yesterday and he did it
<astraljava> Good, good.
<micahg> quadrispro: aren't you based in Europe? (Italy)
<quadrispro> micahg, yes in Italy, but our air is not so European :)
<quadrispro> guys, please give me a feedback on the report and I'll sync the package
<micahg> heh, it should be cleaner being surrounded by the Mediterranean
<astraljava> quadrispro: xjadeo in video seed matches
<astraljava> quadrispro: Also, gimp-gap in graphics.
<astraljava> But that's it.
<falktx> scott-work: I don't think I have permissions to create new US branches (only to edit them). can you create one for ubiquity, similar to edubuntu? (or maybe just copy everything over)
<quadrispro> astraljava, xjadeo? it doesn't seems so, at least doesn't have a direct dep on libaudiofile0
<astraljava> falktx: You are in the team, though, so you should be able to.
<falktx> not sure, last time I tried it failed
<astraljava> quadrispro: Not direct, no. Am I reading the link micahg posted wrong, then?
<quadrispro> astraljava, gimp-gap, the same, it seems to not match :/
<astraljava> falktx: Please pastebin the output, if you have problems still.
<astraljava> quadrispro: mplayer -> mencoder -> xjadeo, which is in video seed. Does that not count?
<quadrispro> no, because the shlib will change (libaudiofile0 -> libaudiofile1), if a package doesn't have a direct dep on libaudiofile0 it won't be touched
<astraljava> quadrispro: Ahh... ok then. Yeah, if that's the case, then hydrogen is the only one.
<quadrispro> ok
<holstein> D00Ds!
<holstein> the live CD is *nice*
<holstein> the little loading screen thing is *so* cool
<holstein> who made that?
<holstein> the ubuntustudio - linux for creative humans graphic?
<holstein> w0w... right out of the box!
<holstein> JACK starts... no fuss
<holstein> just internal hardware on a laptop right now, but that is impressive!
<ailo> holstein: No realtime though
<holstein> ailo: right... but still!
<holstein> w00t!
<ailo> It's great to finally have it
<ailo> I mean the live DVD
<holstein> and have it lookins so polished already
<holstein> ailo: you know how the xrun counter is there?
<holstein> what is the other #?
<holstein> its like "3 (33)" or whatever
<holstein> i know 3 is xruns.. what is 33 again?
<ailo> holstein: Isn't it 33 xruns, and three something else?
<ailo> Check the messages
<holstein> even at this stage, live, and on internal hardware, with generic kernel and no RT, im getting "0 (1)"
<holstein> ailo: yeah... looks like that is the case
<holstein> XRUN callback (1)
<holstein> i have "cannont lock down memory erea"
<holstein> i could literally throw something right now im so excited about it!
<holstein> that loading screen is very nice
<holstein> scott-work: was that yours?
<ailo> holstein: I believe ScottL made that for Oneiric
<ailo> It's been around for some while, but it would either not work or flash by too quickly to be seen. It's nice to have it on the live DVD
<holstein> OH snap!
<holstein> pulse audio jack sink running out of the box!
<holstein> very nice!
<ailo> holstein: Do you get sound?
<ailo> I didn't from the pulse sink
<holstein> i get yoshimi
<holstein> lemme try something via pulse
<ailo> holstein: Make sure it's not muted or something
<holstein> ailo: im finding the live UI very responsive
<ailo> holstein: Whatever is loaded into ram will be very responsive
<ailo> holstein: When you load a program, it'll take some time. First time you open the main menu, it takes a bit of time
<ailo> But, running programs is not slower at all
<ailo> Once it's in RAM, it's just like normal
<holstein> yup.. i think its a little faster with XFCE though
<holstein> this is a fastish machine that im not used as well...
<ailo> holstein: It's not faster than gnome3
<holstein> i havent tried gnome3 live yet
<holstein> yeah, no pulse via JACK for me out of the box
<holstein> still!... im stoked
<ailo> holstein: The point is this. Nothing is fast until it's loaded into RAM. Programs, menus, you name it
<holstein> a wallpaper and a theme, and we are good UI-wise
<holstein> yeah, i get that... i just think loading from CD seems faster
<holstein> in XFCE, than what im used to... but it could be this box
<holstein> or that im just so damn excited about it :)
<ailo> holstein: Don't think the box should matter too much. Did you burn a DVD, or is it from usb stick?
<holstein> DVD
<ailo> holstein:  Than maybe the DVD player reads faster than another machine you have
<holstein> i wanted to go for what i thought would be slowest
<scott-work> falktx_: i will see what i can do about the bzr branch, can you make a personal one under you launchpad account for now?
<scott-work> holstein: i made the plymouth theme from what cory brought to me
<holstein> scott-work: that is *too* bad man!
<holstein> it really sets the tone, i think
<ailo> holstein: Also, I wouldn't compare with Unity for example until it's final release. And, it would also depend on how many services are started
<scott-work> i'm glad you are excited about this holstein, it makes me feel excited as well :)
<holstein> scott-work: im installing.. and its not curses!.. not that there anything wrong with that
<holstein> this installer slideshow is not a dealbreaker for me
<holstein> maybe we can just chill it out a bit
<holstein> just use thoes slides we already have on the site
<holstein> that would give us some consistency
<holstein> and thats something that is in theory already done, and easy to just bring over
<holstein> i joined ubuntu-installer.. ill poke around a bit about it
<holstein> if its that eays, why not...
<holstein> easy*
<holstein> one thing to check off the long-ish list
<holstein> MAN.. id like to just have that loading graphic there! :)
<holstein> 13:24 < cjwatson> the ubiquity-slideshow-ubuntu source package has slideshows for several flavours of Ubuntu, and builds  ubiquity-slideshow-kubuntu, ubiquity-slideshow-xubuntu, ... binary packages
<holstein> 13:24 < cjwatson> so it would probably be best to make a branch of lp:ubiquity-slideshow-ubuntu and add ubuntustudio bits to it
<holstein> scott-work: is that something we can do?
<holstein> we meaning you ;)
<holstein> or should i try and get a helper over there?
<astraljava> holstein: Are you a member of ~ubuntustudio-dev? If so, then yes, you can, too.
<scott-work> holstein: yes it is, it's on the roadmap already
<scott-work> holstein: also, the guildelines are already linked as well as the code in the roadmap
<scott-work> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/Roadmap
<scott-work> i will ask everyone again to look at the roadmap
<holstein> i remember having seen it there
<scott-work>  * please make sure all items needed for precise are there
<scott-work>  * please make sure you think items are in the right milestone
<scott-work>  * please sign up for stuff so we can cover any holes
<scott-work> thank you
<scott-work> i have also tried to link the relevant blueprint or otherwise required information there
<holstein> my install is not booting :/
<holstein> drag...
<holstein> i could likely take that on then
<holstein> assuming i can use the site graphics
<knome> i'm going to update the xubuntu slideshow too, so i might as well work on the studio slideshow
<knome> as long as somebody gives me the content on time
<knome> holstein, if you want it though, feel free to take the item :)
<scott-work> knome: that would be incredibly helpful, maybe holstein can help you though
<scott-work>  
<holstein> knome: COOL
<holstein> nah... dont wait on me
<scott-work> keep in mind about teh roadmap...
<knome> i'm not sure how much there is to "help"
<holstein> i have to learn how to do it
<scott-work> we can always do things early :P
<knome> i mean, it's quite simple, the slideshow stuff
<knome> you basically just drop in stuff
<holstein> scott-work: im going more on what i can do, rather than the timeline for the moment
<scott-work> holstein: i bet if you can help knome define the content, he can make it happen code wise
<knome> yup.
<scott-work> although there isn't much code stuff really, considering we should be coyping and pasting a lot of it
<knome> just get me the content (as with the website), and i'll handle it
<knome> i even have push rights for the slideshow branch, so that's not a problem either
<holstein> knome: im in..
<holstein> maybe i can fake our look and feel?
<holstein> get some screenies going
<knome> your choice :)
<holstein> the website is just easy, thats all
<holstein> knome: when are you doing xubuntu?
<knome> no idea yet
<knome> but doesn't need to happen at the same time
<holstein> knome: cool
<knome> we're mostly updating the text and switching one or two shots
<holstein> wonder if i can update the menu...
<knome> if there is a bug or work item that can be assigned to me, it would help :)
<knome> which menu? the website?
<holstein> im assuming the XFCE menu for US
<knome> ah
<knome> probably, that's not too hard either
<holstein> though i dont mind whats there
<knome> scott-work, ?
<scott-work> holstein: the menu is meant to be the ubuntu studio menu since we moved to xfce
<scott-work> i don't believe it will be showing the audio production menu properly
<holstein> its not bad
<scott-work> i think all the multimedia stuff will all be under multimedia
<scott-work> a lot shouldn't be but should be under audio prodcution
<holstein> yup.. audio production is under multimedia
<scott-work> i think only the "desktop" type apps should be under multimedia
<holstein> eh.. i could go either way
<scott-work> "desktop" meaning totem, audacious, etc
<holstein> it used to be similar to this
<holstein> just under "audio" or whatever it was
<knome> scott-work, when do you think you would have time for the website stuff? i think we should get in contact with the IS soon again to get the site to staging
<knome> scott-work, also, would you please create me a work item in the appropriate blueprint for the slideshow. thanks! :)
<scott-work> knome:  can we say withint two weeks?  is that too long for you?  i mean to be "done" with my part
<knome> well, there's only some decisions really
<scott-work> knome: i can do that re: blueprint
<knome> what to do with the "featured area"
<knome> should it progress automatically? etc.
<knome> and if there is something else you want dramatically changed, now is a good time
<knome> because any changes will start dragging once we go staging
<holstein> lemme see if dist-upgrade gives me whatever x needs to start..
<holstein> im going to boot the live CD on my main rig.. see what its like with firewire
<ailo> holstein: Great
<ailo> holstein: Great time to see about that firewire - audio group thing
<holstein> yup.. the video group or whatever
<ailo> holstein: No, it's audio group
<ailo> holstein: The udev file, remember
<holstein> eh... we'll see
<holstein> its been 10.04 since ive really done more that randomly test it
<ailo> holstein: Since 10.10 there's a file /lib/udev/rules.d/60-ffado.rules which grants rights to specific ffado devices
<holstein> w0w
<holstein> arandr just worked like a charm!
<ailo> holstein: In your case it's this line..
<ailo> ATTR{vendor}=="0x000a92", GROUP="audio", ENV{ID_FFADO}="1" # Presonus Corporation
<holstein> i got dual head just the way i wanted it in like 2 minutes!
<ailo> If I remember correctly you can't use firewire without being a member of audio group
<ailo> Never mind realtime
<holstein> scott-work: yeah.. audio and video production are under "multimedia"
<holstein> they get sub-menus like before in gnome
<holstein> ailo: this drive is reading noticably slower
<holstein> ok.. out of the box again with the internal sound device
<holstein> nah.. i havnet troubleshooted much, but gksudo qjackctl can start my firewire device
<holstein> and of course.. no JACK sink on there ;)
<ailo> holstein: Try jack with firewire, no realtime please
<holstein> ailo: anything else i should check from the "big-rig" ?
<ailo> And as user, not root
<holstein> cool
<holstein> as normal user, with the realtime box un-ticked.. all is well
<holstein> so, that might get taken care of with the kernel
<holstein> also, JACK sink is there now as normal user, which makes sense
<ailo> I have no idea, but then it seems user does not need to be a member of audio group to use firewire
<ailo> Which is great news
<holstein> ailo: agreed.. its not the big permissions issue we were concerned about
<holstein> im getting a shutdown error... but i think thats OK for where we are
<ailo> YEa
<holstein> this is a new stack, and new JACK.. im sure i would need to trouble shoot a bit for my particular hardware
<ailo> holstein: Nah, I think you're ok
<holstein> still... exciting!
<holstein> this is an odd nvidia card too
<ailo> holstein: Do you have a spare partition, or another machine you can use to test firewire?
<ailo> I should probably just get mine home, so I can try one more thing
<holstein> ailo: yup
<holstein> ill do a proper install there ASAP
<ailo> Alright
<holstein> OR just on my main rig
<ailo> I was pretty happy using Oneiric with the -lowlatency and my focusrite device
<ailo> 64 f/p, and not a single xrun to date
<holstein> this laptop was a candidate for that though, and its black-screening
<holstein> ailo: wow... thats great
<holstein> i get TTY's... so its not a panic
<holstein> i'll just let it set here for a while
<scott-work> holstein: but the audio production menu didn't used to be under multimedia though
<scott-work> it used to be under it's own menu item, not as a sub menu
<scott-work> i'll probably isntall an older version of ubuntu studio and take some screen shots as an example of what we used to have
<scott-work> okay, knome, i'll try to make a really good push this weekend then on the website
<scott-work> holstein, are you okay with knome having the work item in the blueprint?
<scott-work> it needs to be done and this will make him responsible for it but dependent on your input however
<knome> scott-work, thanks :)
<scott-work> falktx_: are you around?
<scott-work> err, ping!
<scott-work> falktx_: i realized now that you don't need to create a new bzr branch, you will be creating the /plugin directory inside the live-dvd (or whatever i linked earlier) seed in the existing seed branch
<holstein> scott-work: yeah, sure... im with you!
<falktx_> scott-work: probably, sorry I've just been so busy lately...
<falktx_> hm, now he quits
<holstein> hehe
<len> holstein: cd /usr/share/xgreeters
<len> make a link from the file there to default.desktop
<len> This is a known problem...
<holstein> len: my install failed :/
<ailo> bad DVD?
<ailo> holstein: ?
<ailo> Try usb stick instead
<holstein> ailo: i dont think so... anything is possible though
<ailo> I don't trust DVD for nothing
<ailo> I can hardly install anything from a DVD
<ailo> If I burnt it myself
<holstein> when i reboot in the recovery console, and run startx, i get a "no gnome session" error
<holstein> i just barely had time to troubleshoot it though
<ailo> Oh, so the install worked, but the system is broken?
<ailo> I mean, the install finished
<holstein> ailo: yeah
<holstein> and i tty'd and upgraded
<ailo> I downloaded mine yesterdayt
<ailo> Could be a temporary problem
<holstein> at this point, you never know what is not supported
<holstein> and it can be me
<ailo> Past my bedtime. Got loads of stuff to do this coming week :P
<ailo> GN guys
<holstein> ailo: o/
<len> holstein: have you looked to see if there is a /usr/share/xgreeters/default.desktop file or link? 
<len> If it is missing there will be no X session
<len> I have had this issue for about a week or two now.... including the live dvd
<astraljava> len: I think it's time to file a bug about it, unless there is one already.
<len> I should say live DVD install. The live DVD part is fine
<len>  Give me a half hour... gotta pick up kids. I was thinking the same.
<astraljava> len: Sure, no rush. :) It's been there for a while already. :)
<holstein> ok.. that makes sense now
<astraljava> Whee! New audacious just creeped into unstable.
<holstein> cool... do we get that?
<astraljava> We will. I just need to find out if the autosync is still working, or if I need to file a request for it.
<astraljava> FTBFS on some archs, so might be wise to wait for fixes.
<micahg> astraljava: no, Debian Import Freeze is past, please use requestsync if you need something
<holstein> nothing wrong with the current one
<astraljava> micahg: Yeah, ajmitch just confirmed the same.
<ScottL> falktx_, i'm here if you have a question, although i'm going to dinner with family to celebrate duaghter's birthday - 10 years old today :)
<astraljava> ScottL: Conga-rats! :)
<knome> Bongo-mice!
 * astraljava rolls eyes
<knome> :Ã
<knome> â« samba rumba bueno la conga cha cha cha
 * knome shakes his body parts
 * astraljava chuckles
 * falktx_ facepalms
<astraljava> knome: That should be a factoid. Can you make it so?
<astraljava> !conga-rats
<knome> which one? :P
<knome> heh
<knome> in #ubuntustudio-devel? :P
<astraljava> Well, alias could be !bongo-mice
<astraljava> Hell yeah.
<knome> haha
<knome> i suppose i can
<astraljava> EXCELLENT!!! /me rubs hands together, Mr. Burns-like
<knome> hmm. can a factiod have a - ?
<knome> !conga-rats
<ubottu> â« samba rumba bueno la conga cha cha cha
<knome> apparently
 * falktx_ double facepalms
<knome> !bongo-mice
<astraljava> Wow, you rock!
<knome> !bongo-mice
<ubottu> â« samba rumba bueno la conga cha cha cha
<knome> there you go
<knome> now sssshhh :P
<astraljava> Aaaahhhhahahahahaha!!!
 * astraljava ^5's knome 
 * knome shakes his body parts again
<holstein> 16:48 < len> holstein: cd /usr/share/xgreeters
<holstein> 16:48 < len> make a link from the file there to default.desktop
<holstein> ^^ whats that mean?
<holstein> im looking in there and i see lightdm-gtk-greeter.desktop
<astraljava> holstein: But not default.desktop, right? I think len meant that there should be such linking to the lightdm one.
<holstein> im trying ln -s /usr/share/xgreeters/lightdm-gtk-greeter.desktop
<holstein> /usr/share/xgreeters/default.desktop
<holstein> from len's email
<holstein> yup... that was totally it..
<holstein> w0w!.. im excited again..
#ubuntustudio-devel 2012-01-27
<holstein> that dude is challenging
<astraljava> Yep.
<astraljava> But in all fairness, what threw me off the loop was starting vlc with the video device option. I did not find the audio device setting that way at all.
<holstein> i hate that "im just going to get a mac" crap
<holstein> i mean, you gotta learn to use those too
<holstein> its just, when you drop a grand or 2, you tend to become more open to learning
<astraljava> Some people just aren't up to it. *shrug*
<astraljava> Seems to be trolling, too.
<holstein> yeah. for like hours...
<holstein> this was going on before my nap
<astraljava> Yeah. I'm done. He's all yours.
<holstein> i suggested pavucontrol right when the dude came in
<holstein> hehe
<holstein> i just feel dirty now
<holstein> i installed all this crap, and got VLC working... 
<holstein> whatever
<holstein> i learned something, and thats cool
<astraljava> I didn't install anything, and still it works. *smirk*
<holstein> hehe
<holstein> astraljava: i didnt have pulse on this box... or VLC
<holstein> it was a lubuntu install
<astraljava> Ahh... ok.
<len> Installed todays version (Jan26) of the live DVD. ubiquity screen is too large to see the buttons on the bottom... there is already a bug about that
<len> I added that it affects me.
<len> I played with pulse and jackd... no sound here either... someone already mentioned that. The sound file player plays straight to jack just fine.
<holstein> len: i copied that ln after i figured out what you were talking about
<astraljava> len: I hope there's a bug for that, too. I know David would be willing to fix it, if he knew about it.
<holstein> not that you werent clear... i just didnt get it
<holstein> i got no sound from pulse
<holstein> but i got sound using JACK
<len> Audacious? However, none of the videos ones do. Xine does, but is a pain to setup.
<astraljava> Sounds to me there's a problem with the pulse jack module. Can you two file the relevant bug about it?
<len> I looked in /usr/share/xgreeters/ in Xubuntu 11.10 and there is no default.desktop there either.
<len> But it works.
<len> I think someone has added some functionality to lightdm and forgot to tell anyone.
<len> The idea being there can be several files for different sessions and default points to the one in use.
<len> Do we really need panel two on the bottom?
<holstein> i dont like it
<holstein> the "dock"
<len> it seems to just take up room
<holstein> i would like to have no dock, like it used to be
<holstein> but, i just dont like docks
<len> I can always add apps to the top panel
<holstein> i use kupfer
<len> foo YC20 drives jack nuts.
<len> Has anyone used it ok?
<holstein> len: not yet
<holstein> something crashed on me
<holstein> openshot...
<holstein> wouldnt launch
<len> If I try to play it with the virt keyboard, I get stuck keys and distorted sound... xruns?
<len> Even when not playing it it is always giving jack logging errors.
<holstein> interesting
<holstein> well... these are the things i can do without.. comon...
<holstein> we got time to sort some of that out i hope
<len> I don't need it either, but if it is the first thing a new user tries, that would not leave a good taste in their mouth.
<len> We don't have rt priv even with audio group
<holstein> nah... i like YC20
<holstein> len: i think/hope the kernel will do that
<holstein> what do you think?
<len> I don't know
<holstein> len: i would *love* to actually run this stuff
<holstein> test it
<holstein> pull out whats borked
<holstein> get a nice polished finally release for the LTS
<holstein> len: i got it loading up today and got *so* excited about it
<len> The is a nice organ in there already. But for me the reality is that I would prefer to use external sound modules
<len> My machine doesn't really have the poop to run sounds as well as record audio
<holstein> len: where are you again?
<holstein> anywhere near me?
<holstein> im in asheville NC
<len> I'm on the wet coast on Vancouver Island
<holstein> yeah....
<astraljava> holstein: Haha. Ex-wife goes there several times a year on business.
<holstein> astraljava: its nice
<holstein> we have LUG if you happen to tag along sometimes
<astraljava> You missed the ex- there.
<holstein> astraljava: yeah... i did...
<holstein> sorry about that
<astraljava> Hehe. :) No worries.
<holstein> will have to fly you in special then ;)
<astraljava> True. :)
<holstein> ScottL: i have "sound & video" then subgroups "audio/video production"
<holstein> thats in 10.04, ubuntustudio
<holstein> it looks much the same in xfce, just "multimedia" instead
<holstein> is that OK?
<holstein> i kind of like it that way
<holstein> i find it less disruptive
<len> bug #922424 
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 922424 in lightdm (Ubuntu) "lightdm won't start I have console(s) only" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/922424
<len> has been filed
<len> Maybe someone will say, ja you have to put that link in as part of your distro
<astraljava> We'll sort that out. Also, the sound not working via pulse to jack. Please file that too. I'm going to pass out now, it's 5:30 am.
<len> I tried ... launchpad coughed on me... I'll try again.
<ScottL> bug #918519
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 918519 in Ubuntu Studio "please upload ubuntustudio package updates to archives" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/918519
<ScottL> micahg, did you say you were going to upload the above bug?
<ScottL> not trying to pressure you, just trying to refresh my memory
<micahg> ah, yes, sorry, haven't gotten to piloting yet, it's on my list, will try to do it tomorrow
<ScottL> okay :)
<ScottL> i'm wondering if this will help clear up the missing '/usr/share/xgreeters/default.desktop' issue
<ScottL> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/lightdm/+bug/816809
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 816646 in lightdm (Ubuntu) "duplicate for #816809 no log in screen due to lightdm greeter not being installed" [Medium,Fix released]
<ScottL> this suggest that installing lightdm-gtk-greeter fixes the problem
<len> With reguard to the pulsejack bug. I have had three or four timeout errors from launchpad.
<len> Can someone else try?
<len> just as a note lightdm-gtk-greeter is installed in xubuntu 11.10 (which works) but there is still no default.desktop.
<len> I will reboot to US 12.04 and see if it is installed there.
<len> ScottL: The live DVD install says that lightdm-gtk-greeter is already installed.
<len> default.desktop is not listed among the installed file though.
<len> I find nothing in the config file(s) that would change the greeters name to default either.
<len> the changelog for lightdm-gtk-greeter shows 3 updates to the package on Jan 18th and 19th
<len> that would be about the time it stopped working.
<len> The changes are to lightdm
<len> I was looking at another gtk-greeter bug to do with translations.
<len> This comment caught my eye:
<len> Sorry Pjotr12345 but nobody is actively working on the gtk greeter (which has been made as an example greeter, the default greeter in Ubuntu is the unity one)
<len> So, the gtk-greeter is an example that is not being kept up and it looks like lightdm is moving on without it.
<len> Looking at the changelog on jan 18th at 11:10 it shows:
<len> * Move the GTK+ and Qt greeters into their own projects
<len> Does this mean there is now a maintainer?
<scott-work> i think i found the problem with the lightdm stuff...
<scott-work> and i should have remembered this previously from something micahg had said
<scott-work> we are currently shipping lightdm-greeter-example-gtk in the seeds
<scott-work> we should probably be shipping lightdm-gtk-greeter
<astraljava> I was looking at the same. Should we have our own customized one?
<astraljava> Maybe not, neither does Xubuntu.
<astraljava> I'll make the change.
<micahg> I'll be uploading the US stuff shortly, so just let me know when it's good
<astraljava> micahg: It's up now. Thanks! I copied the same line from Xubuntu's desktop. I suppose that's how it works?
<astraljava> Ahh... yeah, what scott-work said.
<micahg> umm, where's the stuff I"m supposed to sponsor again?
<astraljava> bzr+ssh://bazaar.launchpad.net/~ubuntustudio-dev/ubuntu-seeds/ubuntustudio.precise/
<micahg> no, I know where the seed is :), scott-work had some other stuff for me to sponsor
<astraljava> Hehe. Sorry. :)
<astraljava> Any idea what that stuff was? I could perhaps dig it up for ya.
<micahg> ah, found it, it wasn't showing up in the queue since it's against the ubuntu studio project
<astraljava> Oh ok.
<scott-work> micahg: uno momento, i shall find it
<micahg> scott-work: I found it, it was in backscroll
<scott-work> oh, hehe
<scott-work> micahg: thank you very much for helping us, it has been a bit of a godsend
<scott-work> :)
<micahg> sorry it's taken me all week
<scott-work> micahg:  i doubt we would have gotten it done otherwise
<holstein> w00T!
<holstein> i dont care to reinstall to test changes made...
<holstein> hmmm... that sounds unclear...
<holstein> i *will* reinstall to test changes... let me know
<holstein> announcement...
<holstein> 14:12 < ochosi> that's why i created elementary-xfce
<holstein> 14:12 < holstein> ochosi: nice
<holstein> 14:12 < ochosi> which is a fork of elementary, complemented with xfce-specific stuff
<holstein> 14:13 < holstein> ochosi: thats in the repos? or going to be?
<holstein> 14:13 < holstein> and it would be cool for us to use it?
<holstein> 14:13 < ochosi> atm it's part of xubuntu-artwork, but we discussed putting it in a separate package so you (and others) can  use it more easily
<holstein> i forget what icons we were planning on using, but these are falling in our lap, and we could help test/develop them
<astraljava> Yeah, as soon as they are separated, we could most certainly use them.
<holstein> sounds too easy :)
<holstein> and i like that!
<astraljava> What do you mean?
<holstein> astraljava: just that someone else is doing the work
<astraljava> We're already using someone else's work anyhow. :)
<holstein> coat-tails!
<astraljava> Isn't that the beauty of FOSS?
<astraljava> You don't have to write _everything_ by yourself. :)
<astraljava> ScottL: One thing that occurred to me, are we going to be providing support for upgrading from lucid to precise?
<holstein> astraljava: i dont see why we cant
<holstein> it should just work right?
<holstein> i can try it
<holstein> when the time comes
<astraljava> holstein: There's quite the transition, from GNOME 2 to Xfce, for instance.
<holstein> sure, but that might help actually
<holstein> nothing to break config wise
<holstein> just new stuff
<astraljava> We're still using gconf, though. I'm not sure whether that amounts to anything.
<holstein> astraljava: we can only try i supppose
<holstein> i would think the settings would not conflict
<astraljava> holstein: Yep. I will try it this weekend.
<astraljava> But I'm just thinking, that's one aspect that probably accounts to the LTS decision.
<astraljava> If we're calling it that, then we probably do _have_ to provide support also for upgrading.
<holstein> well, we're not doing anything to break that... 
<astraljava> Yeah, well, one release to another is troublesome in some cases. This is a much bigger thing that we're talking about, here.
<astraljava> IMSNHO, we need to give it a couple of runs, before we can even promise to support it.
 * micahg guesses he can't complain about changing the per-user defaults in the -default-settings package since xubuntu does it
<micahg> ScottL: why do you have Thunar .po files in the default-settings package?
<SLavender> webchat.freenode isn't working right now :(
<holstein> yup
<holstein> webchat is down :/
<micahg> SLavender: why do you have Thunar .po files in the default-settings package?
<SLavender> but i don't like this chatzilla client, it's waaaaay too conspicuous for work
<SLavender> micahg: it came that way from the xubuntu sources
<micahg> SLavender: would you mind if that waited until Monday until I can discuss it with mr_pouit
<astraljava> Why would we need them, cause we're using Nautilus, right?
<SLavender> micahg: i'm okay with that, no problem
<SLavender> but i think i agree with astraljava 
<micahg> so do I, I just want to be sure :)
<micahg> oh, wait, you're not using Thunar at all?
<SLavender> micahg: we are including nautilus and using it as default (or should be)
<SLavender> micahg: we had previously discussed that i was nervous about pulling thunar out currently because it's so tightly integrated and you suggested just including nautilus for now
<astraljava> Oh okay.
<micahg> I did?
<astraljava> This conversation is confusing.
<SLavender> micahg: i believe so ;)  actually, i'm really pretty sure
<len> ScottL: I got a reply to my bug report on lightdm. I have forwarded it to the mailing list. It implies that this link is set as part of the theme setup
<len> Not that we set the link but that there is a place in the theme stuff that sets what file to look for in xgreeters
<len> Zsync is downloading todays ISO. I'll see where things are at.
<SLavender> len: i think i had the old and decprecated lightdm greeter in the seeds, astraljava has already fixed it (i believe), and most likely micahg will update it :)
<micahg> yeah, will get that up today
<len> Ok I will wait till tomorrow to test it.
<len> I had the idea it was done for today
<micahg> SLavender: I assume you've tested the new packages and they work as intended?
<SLavender> micahg: i did build them, but was unsure of the best method to test them to be honest
<SLavender> which means that i did not really do a proper test of them, no
<astraljava> Ahh... yes, will update the bug status.
<micahg> :(, I'd prefer to know they work as intended before uploading
<micahg> SLavender: install the packages you built
<micahg> reboot and see if everything works as intended
<micahg> let me do the meta now since the others need testing
<SLavender> obviously doing this on a precise install would be preferable
<micahg> umm...yes :), can someone else test them?
<len> Send it to me, I'll do a fresh install.
<SLavender> my concern was that i was unsure how this would work as an update versus a fresh install from the image
<SLavender> i do admit that it sounds kinda stupid now that i type that out
<micahg> well, first concern is not to break current installs, then we can fix image issues
<SLavender> especially considering that users most likely would be updating from previous version
<SLavender> so yes, i should have tested them
<micahg> but we're up against the wall for alpha2 as freeze is Monday at 21:00 UTC
<SLavender> i can get a precise install tonight, build, and test them in ppa
<micahg> ok, no worries, I'll save the other stuff for the weekend, I'll do the meta now
<micahg> just ping me when you think they're good
<micahg> ok, pushed up 2 packaging changes, 1 each for -default-settings and -look
<micahg> do you intend to ship a separate icon theme anymore?  the bzr branch just has a package with a depends?
<micahg> it might make sense to just drop the package if elementary is seeded
<micahg> keep in mind that xubuntu just switched to elementary-xfce, but we'll probably break that out into a separate package after alpah 2
<micahg> *alpha
<astraljava> micahg: ochosi was going to separate elementary-xfce as a separate package.
<astraljava> Haha.
<micahg> right, but I'm wondering if you intend to ever ship your own icons again
<micahg> otherwise, we can drop the source and rely on the seed
<astraljava> Yeah I don't know, really. I am not up-to-speed with the theming.
<micahg> ok, can you find out for me?
<astraljava> I will talk to Scott about it, for sure.
<micahg> astraljava: the -meta package already has the proper depends on lightdm-gtk-greeter
<micahg> ok, uploading the new meta
<micahg> umm, wait, why do you need compilation tools in the desktop seed?
<micahg> nevermind, xubuntu has it too
<astraljava> micahg: I thought you wanted info on icons. Yeah I made the change to desktop seed regarding the greeter already.
<micahg> astraljava: no, what I mean is that the error seems to have not been uploaded, the current meta seems to have the proper dependency
<astraljava> That's strange.
<micahg> ok, uploaded
<astraljava> Thanks! I just need to find out the true cause for the X session not starting.
<micahg> I go offline in an hour (for about 25 hours), but can upload stuff Sat night
<micahg> it might be the lack of the new -default-settings
<astraljava> micahg: Ok. Thanks for everything so far! Have a nice hiatus. :)
<micahg> heh, just the Sabbath :)
<astraljava> Well, hope it's a good one anyway. :)
<len> Whoever: Todays Iso has an install problem. Ubiquity crashs part way through.
<len> Are chnages made today (for tomorrow) likely to fix this? (should I wait to try that?)
<len> Also: I tried both install from boot and install from live. They are both the same.
<len> Both have a ubiquity crash.
<astraljava> I don't know of any changes that might lead to that, but I'll look into it.
<len> Also: The option of having an encrypted drive is gone.
<len> ubiquity doesn't seem to support that.
<len> It does support encrypted user dir.
<len> There was at least one user who felt an encrypted drive was a make or break for them.
<len> I don't know if it makes any difference (crash wise) but this is the first time I printed the iso with a persistent file.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2012-01-28
<len> install bug #922907  has already been entered by someone else
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 922907 in ubiquity (Ubuntu) "Installer crashed towards the end... Ubuntu 12.04 alpha nightly" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/922907
<len> I confirmed it as affecting me too.
<len> I think it affects all ubuntu... Another network setup error.
<ailo> Another detail that ubiquity forgets is to ask for where to install the boot loader
<ailo> Not a deal breaker, since on Linux systems with grub2 you can easily do: sudo grub-install sda
<ailo> If you want another system to be default
<ailo> It's a little worrying that ubiquity doesn't care about yes/no for deb packages (like jack)
<ailo> I guess it force installs
<holstein> with yes though right?
<holstein> or wahtever we tell it to?
<holstein> no reason *not* to do it "yes" now
<holstein> since jack wont fail anymore
<ailo> For US it doesn't matter in a way, but it's interesting that it works thisway
<ailo> All though, it might be important to include all the info on what packages you are automatically saying yes to, before installing
<ailo> For jack, I don't know if it's that important
<ailo> But, when it comes to license issues, it might be different
<len> Jack does not seem to be installed real time. Where the boot loader gets installed does matter, but you can choose that, along with how the partitions are set up.
<holstein> len: you dont think its just the kernel?
<holstein> how can we tell?
<holstein> i suppose you can add abogani's ppa to a fresh install and test that way...
<len> The jack logs while it is running seem to say no real time 
<holstein> not you personally, just in general
<holstein> i have an install i can test on soon
<len> It seems with the partition setup, either one chooses to let the installer do it or you are totally on your own with no guidance at all.
<holstein> len: seems like you can really get in there though
<holstein> i dont see anything that i need the alternate for
<holstein> maybe *not* installing grub?
<len> It at least so far has put grub on the same drive as the install.
<holstein> yeah, there used to be an advanced button
<len> there still is a button that does that still... but it doesn't explain itself well.
<ScottL> it would appear that the 64bit version of the live-dvd on jan 26 had some trouble building
<ScottL> and i just had ubiqutity fail on xubuntu install that i downloaded last night
<astraljava> Just now came the CD Image mail, seems python-dbus, libgtk-3-common and language-selector-common were having some problems. I wonder, though, why it's two days late with the emails.
<astraljava> But, on the other hand, today's build hasn't started, yet.
<len> ScottL: The ubiquity Fail has already been entered as a bug report, bug #922907
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 922907 in ubiquity (Ubuntu) "Installer crashed towards the end... Ubuntu 12.04 alpha nightly" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/922907
<len> As it affects ubuntu desktop, I expect it will get fixed quick.
<len> Is there a way in the seeds or metas to force or specify answers to package install questions?
<astraljava> len: That's possible via pre-seeding. What did you have in mind?
<astraljava> len: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/InstallCDCustomization#Writing_the_preseed_file
<ailo> len: Ubiquity doesn't ask about the boot loader on a regular Ubuntu install either
<ailo> So, it's on purpose
<ailo> Jack installs normally, as if you had answered yes to realtime
<ailo> jack does not administer group membership
<ailo> That is a job for US
<ailo> len: I just wrote some messages to you
<ailo> len_: Did you miss them?
<len_> Might have...
<ailo> len: Ubiquity doesn't ask about the boot loader on a regular Ubuntu install either
<ailo> <ailo> So, it's on purpose
<ailo> <ailo> Jack installs normally, as if you had answered yes to realtime
<ailo> <ailo> jack does not administer group membership
<ailo> <ailo> That is a job for US
<len_> Ok, but, then how come even with group audio after the us install jackd complains about no rt?
<ailo> len_: Did you look in /etc/security/limits.d/* and make sure those files are set up right?
<ailo> US renames audio.conf to audio.conf.disabled
<ailo> You might want to remove the US file and rename audio.conf.disabled back to audio.conf
<ailo> Also, make sure to reboot after any changes
<len_> I haven't but I don't know what to look for. Also I can't till I can install again... The iso doesn'tinstall right now.
<len_> There is no new iso today.
<len_> At least so far.
<ailo> What worries me is that ubiquity does not care about letting users be able answer y/n to post install scripts
<ailo> Don't know if that is intentional
<ailo> Well, it's not really that troubling I guess, since we do want jack installed by default anyway
<ailo> It's just that the distro maintainers need to be aware of how ubiquity differs from a regular install
<len_> We can always have a script that sets rt if we have to... after first boot if not during install.
<ailo> len_: In my install I only have audio.conf.disabled
<len_> I agree we can work with what there is. Having the live DVD is better than the alt anyway.
<ailo> Which is strange
<ailo> The file needs to be named /etc/security/limits.d/audio.conf
<ailo> That and being a member of audio group is enough to get rt privilege
<len_> Mine was the same when I had one that installed
<ailo> len_: Inside that file you have two lines that need to be uncommented (which they are)
<ailo> @audio   -  rtprio     95
<ailo> @audio   -  memlock    unlimited
<ailo> Gotta go
<ailo> Beer sample emptying party tonight
<len_> I would use the old one but there have been changes made since then. We are waiting for a new iso to what has changed... C U
<len_> Have a mug for me.
<ailo> len_: I'll have a few even
<len_> I have a question... bug #919767 affects the US project as well as brasero. There seems to be a link to add an it affects this project too. but when I go there, the questions don't make sense.
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 919767 in brasero (Ubuntu) "brasero stays in memory after use" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/919767
<len_> Also, Would it help if bugs that are new get confirmed? There are a number of bugs that I have put in for this project that are just listed as new.
<ScottL> one reason that the liveFS emails comes late is because it is not on the subscribed to the mailing list and i (or the other person) have to approve them
<ScottL> and i don't always check every day
<ScottL> i think i can add them to the mailing list but i have to dig for an email to find a link and then finger my way through there
<ScottL> and i just haven't done it yet
<len_> Having more than one person saying this bug affects them may get them more attention.
<len_> It appears todays iso didn't get made either.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2012-01-29
<micahg> do you people mind a new blender right before alpha2? someone is requesting a sync of 2.61
<micahg> s/mind/want/
<kubotu> micahg meant: "do you people want a new blender right before alpha2? someone is requesting a sync of 2.61"
 * micahg hugs kubotu
<holstein> micahg: i dont know enough to comment... its an LTS, but i go with your decision on that
<micahg> I don't mind it after alpha2, it's just with alpha2 freeze Monday at 21:00, I wouldn't sync it unless the ubuntu studio devs approved since it's on your image
<holstein> OH... i see... i was thinking an testing version of blender.. yeah, go for it
<micahg> well, if the new version breaks the image, there isn't much time to fix it, that's why I'm hesistant
<astraljava> holstein: Yeah, he wants someone to test the newer version, and _then_ say 'Yea we can have that!' :)
<holstein> good point... theres not really a way to test it, is there?
<micahg> well, more so someone taking the responsibility off my shoulders if something breaks :)
<holstein> if it runs sucessful, does that mean it wont bread the build?
<astraljava> ailo: len: Do you have the precise installs up and running? Can you install the newer blender from sid, and give it a go?
<holstein> i have a 12.04 install, assuming i can figure out how to install that version
<astraljava> micahg: And why would anyone do that, without the procedure I described above? :D
<micahg> I'm fine writing in the bug to be sync'd after alpha2, the only reason to sync now is if you want the new version on the imge
<astraljava> holstein: Oh! Yeah, can you do that, then?
<astraljava> micahg: Understood.
<holstein> astraljava: lets see if ailo / len pick it up... im slammed til wednesday looks like
<astraljava> I would not want to do that either, unless we have someone who knows what to do with it, to say it's trusted.
<micahg> I can throw up a "backport" for precise in my PPA if you like 
<holstein> micahg: who asked for it?... maybe we could just ask them
<micahg> Bug #915248 
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 915248 in blender (Ubuntu) "Please sync Blender 2.61-2 from Debian" [Wishlist,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/915248
<astraljava> Mike, you on that?
<holstein> dont know that person...
<astraljava> I meant, can you ask on the bug? I've never used that app.
<holstein> ill make some time tomorrow evening and check in... see where you guys are with it
<holstein> i should have time to do it then... i gotta get horizontal
<astraljava> That's a bit late for Alpha-2. Ok.
<holstein> i played my 2nd electric bass gig in about 15 years ;)
<micahg> also, being that it hasn't migrated to testing yet worries me (RC bugs were just fixed, but the new build was uploaded yesterday)
<holstein> went late
<holstein> so, its gotta be tonite?
<astraljava> micahg: ACK
<astraljava> holstein: No, it's not imperative.
<astraljava> We don't _have to_ have it for Alpha-2.
<holstein> cool... ill check in then... GN !
 * micahg will comment and subscribe and you guys can sort it out
<holstein> micahg: thanks for bringing it up...
<micahg> no problem
<astraljava> micahg: I asked on the bug, so we'll see. Thanks for the heads-up!
<micahg> astraljava: you might want to subscribe to the bug so you get followup comments
<astraljava> micahg: Am I not automatically getting them after a comment?
<micahg> nope
<astraljava> Oh ok, thanks!
<micahg> and I wrote there that it shouldn't be syncd before alpha2 without and Ubuntu Studio dev ACK in the bug
<astraljava> Right.
<astraljava> micahg: How was the day-off? :)
<micahg> heh, fine, thanks  :)
<astraljava> Good, good. :)
<ScottL> micahg, i built the -settings, -look, and -icon-theme packages and installed them
<ScottL> micahg, i did run into a problem installing them on an existing xubuntu install
<ScottL> micahg, it was trying to overwrite an existing .xsessions (i think, i have screenshot) file
<ScottL> micahg, i imagine that i'll need to do some bash in a preinst file to see if an .xsession file exist and then rename it
<ScottL> micahg, along with a postrm to rename the original .xsession back to it's original name
<ScottL> micahg, do have have any suggestions for an example...i'm just going to dig through some of the xubuntu code in launchpad to see if i can find examples
<ScottL> micahg, although i seem to remember the -default-settings package had some preinst and postrm files
<ScottL>  
<ScottL> micahg, as to the blender upgrade before A2...
<ScottL> micahg, i don't think we gain much compared to the risk we take
<ScottL> micahg, breaking an image is bad right before A2
<ScottL> micahg, and we still have the rest of the cycle to test the new blender
<ScottL> micahg, for example, starting right after A2, correct?
<ScottL>  
<ScottL> an interesting note about packages and building and such
<ScottL> i think i learned a rather valuable lesson in testing the three new packages
<ScottL> somehow the bzr code for -look didn't include me renaming the wallpapers directory
<ScottL> and it wouldn't build for me in ppa
<len> Hi, just woke up... I don't know blender well at all. And the Iso I have won't install.
<ScottL> len, the mail list is showing a failure of the liveFS on the 64 bit
<ScottL> tomorrow morning i'll bug cjwatson about this
<len> Well the last iso I got had a bug that has been fixed. But then yesterdays iso didn't come (no build?)
<astraljava> ScottL: The i386 mail says failure as well.
<len> I figured both.
<ScottL> astraljava, did it, i pushed several emails for the list but only saw the 64 bit :/
<ScottL> errr, did it?
<len> Looking through that email I can't find a fail and the only error is a grub thing at the bottom
<astraljava> Yes, it did.
<astraljava> E: Unable to locate package ubuntustudio-font-meta^
<ScottL> astraljava, also,i'm having trouble with the new -default-settings package and maybe you can give me some direction
<ScottL> http://imagebin.org/196207
<ScottL> this is when i try to install the new ubuntustudio-default-settings over an existing xubuntu-defrault-settings package
<ScottL> i thought renaming the .Xdefaults file wouldl fix the problem and then i could install the new ubuntustudio-defaults-settings
<ScottL> but it still gives me this error
<ScottL> i'm going to remove xubuntu-defautl-settings later and see if i can isntall ubuntustudio-defaults-settings
<ScottL> unless someone gives me a good suggestion otherwise
<astraljava> Yeah. I think you need to do what you already described, since dpkg-divert is frowned upon.
<ScottL> astraljava, rename or remove?
<astraljava> The renaming thing. (sorry, on the phone..)
<len> Will we be able to add any more apps after A2? It seems there are still some apps named in the work flows that are not there.
<astraljava> Yes, it's possible, although we gotta be sure that they work, so that we won't lose the milestone in build errors. What are we missing?
<len> audacity is one, I would have to go through and check more close for more.
<len> That one happens to be at the top of the list.
<astraljava> Yeah ok, that one is easy, as it's for sure in the archives.
<len> It may be better to redefine the work flows.
<ScottL> len, i haven't even thought about work flows and new seeds at this point
<ScottL> the point is that i want to get A2 set with the xfce transition basically 99% there first and the live-dvd working
<len> I will spend some time later and make a list... I may have to look for an older iso that I can load to check with.
<ScottL> len, astraljava :  i have audacity on my list to add, but i wanted to clean up the audo workflow first
<len> The live dvd seems to be working pretty good. The only thing missing is RT.
<ScottL> i promise it will be in there
<len> Same on the install.
<ScottL> len, i have the no -rt in live and after install on a list to talk with cjwatson about tomorrow
<ScottL> len, is there anything else you notice that should be fixed
<ScottL> please discount the crappy theme, this is because the -default-settings package isn't  updated yet
<ScottL>  
<len> I can see that.
<ScottL> micahg, astraljava :  i removed the xubuntu-default-settings package and installed ubuntustudio-default-settings package and it worked fine
<ScottL> micahg, astraljava :  is there a way i can handle that in the new ubuntustudio-default-settings package?   in the control file or similar?
<len> I need  a new iso to check the default.desktop thing.
<ScottL> i've never really had to worry about removing a package per se before, just saying that it conflicts with antoher pacakge
<ScottL> len, you mean the lightdm bug that prevented x from starting?
<len> yes
<ScottL> aye
<len> Since it was fixed there hasn't been a new iso.
<astraljava> ScottL: I thought you had it figured out already. I would install an /etc/skel/.Xdefaults.ubuntustudio file, then in postinst rename the original, and then rename ours as that.
<astraljava> Although, I must admit, I'm not sure what is the best practice.
<len> Tried to look at blender on 11.04.. it seg faults. Maybe that is why I don't know what it is.
<ScottL> astraljava, no, i meant i opened a terminal, renamed the package, and then tried to install our -defaults-settings
<astraljava> I would assume as that, but then of course removing xubuntu-default-settings removes the wrong file.
<astraljava> Hmm...
<ScottL> astraljava, i was doing it very, very hacky
<astraljava> ScottL: How exactly did you rename a package?
<ScottL> astraljava, but i see your point about isntalling ours as .Xdefaults.ubuntustudio then changing in postin
<ScottL> astraljava,  i opened a terminal using 'sudo thunar', then found /etc/skel/.Xdefaults, right clicked on it, renamed to .Xdefault.original
<astraljava> len: Micah thought (IIRC) that it might have been about that missing -default-settings package.
<astraljava> ScottL: So you did not rename a _package_, but that file. And yes, obviously it would work then.
<astraljava> dpkg refuses to overwrite an already existing system file.
<ScottL> astraljava, the error was actually not saying that it didn't like overwritting a file
<astraljava> dpkg-divert can work around that, but I forget why it is not recommended.
<ScottL> it said it didn't like it because it was a file for xubuntu-default-settings (which was currently installed)
<astraljava> ScottL: Err... yes it does, in that imagebin screenshot.
<len> C U later, I am playing in an hour. Have to go.
<astraljava> "...trying to overwrite '/etc/skel/.Xdefaults', ..."
<ScottL> bye len , thanks again
<ScottL> astraljava, ochosi is suggesting to use "replaces" in the control file...that should work no?
<astraljava> ScottL: Yes, of course, but that then removes the whole xubuntu-default-settings package. I guess we can do that, but that does not get reinstalled, if user then wants to uninstall ours.
<astraljava> But it might be a better option after all. I dunno.
<astraljava> Will have to talk to a MOTU about it.
<astraljava> ...or actually look for an example in other similar packages.
<astraljava> ScottL: At least neither lubuntu nor xubuntu use replaces in their control files, but use postinst scripts extensively. Granted, there's not this particular case happening, but I think we should do something similar.
<ScottL> astraljava, let's view this from two perspectives...1) a full install from ISO image and 2) a user "upgrading" from *buntu to ubuntu studio
<ScottL> 1) i don't think using replaces matters then in this case
<ScottL> 2) a user can remove and remove the ubuntustudio-default-settings package and then install *buntu-default-settings
<ScottL> but i agree that #2 isn't a very friendly or automated process
<ScottL> i think your suggestion about installing .Xdefaults.ubuntustudio and then renaming is a good choice
<ScottL> astraljava, the ironically funny thing is that the file being overwritten is the same as the file doing the overwritting
<ScottL> at least in this case (i.e. xubuntu -> ubuntustudio)
<astraljava> Isn't any other flavor doing that?
<astraljava> ScottL: If no other flavor needs that file, then we would test in postinst whether it exists, and if yes, then do nothing. If not, then install it. Simple as that.
<astraljava> If the file is exactly the same as the one Xubuntu installs.
<ScottL> for xubuntu it is the same because i used their packages as a starting point :-)
<astraljava> ScottL: Yeah ok.
<ScottL> i would expect others would have a .Xdefaults package though
<ScottL> perhaps not ubuntu at some point (maybe already) since they are using unity and will move to wayland at some point
<ScottL> but most likely kubuntu does i would guess
<astraljava> Nope.
<astraljava> $ apt-file search .Xdefaults
<astraljava> xemacs21-support: /usr/share/xemacs-21.4.22/etc/sample.Xdefaults
<astraljava> xubuntu-default-settings: /etc/skel/.Xdefaults
<astraljava> I gotta look into what it actually does.
<micahg> a simple replaces would work for overwriting the file, but I think we need a more generic solution
<astraljava> micahg: Wouldn't replaces remove xubuntu-d-s first? It's a little overkill, IMHO.
<micahg> no, breaks/conflicts would do that :) 
<astraljava> Oh, right.
<astraljava> micahg: Why are we seeing this in the CD Image mail? E: Unable to locate package ubuntustudio-font-meta^
<astraljava> micahg: Package seems to be there, though.
<astraljava> I notice there's the ^ indicating a task, but it's constructed exactly the same way as -desktop, and that seems to work fine.
<micahg> I'll have a look in a bit, we missed today's image though
<astraljava> Yeah, it seems to have worked up until 27th, for version 0.94. Yesterday it couldn't find the 0.95 version anymore, though I'm not actually sure when it has landed into the archives.
<micahg> astraljava: I think it's ok for today
<astraljava> micahg: Ok, there was just a random glitch, then. I suppose. Thanks!
<micahg> we won't know for sure until today's images are published
<astraljava> Are they rolled late today?
<micahg> I don't think so
<astraljava> Hmm... there were no directories in people.c.c/~ubuntu-archive/ for today.
<micahg> are there any mails in moderation  for the -devel list?
<astraljava> I don't think so, Scott just recently cleared the queue, and then we saw yesterday's results.
<ScottL> astraljava, cjwatson had set the ubuntu studio images to build later in the day for some reason, i can't remember currently
<ScottL> i think it was to help make sure that something built before our to make sure it would build or similar
<ScottL> micahg, should we install .Xdefaults.ubuntustudio, then rename .Xdefaults -> .Xdefaults.orig and .Xdefaults.ubuntustudio -> .Xdefaults?
<astraljava> ScottL: No, it is back to around 1800 UTC now, but it only just got published.
<ScottL> astraljava, oh, hmmm, maybe it was changed back when we switched to live
<astraljava> micahg: Sadly, the same error is there today as well.
<micahg> ok, I"ll dig further
<astraljava> Thanks!
<micahg> ScottL: I think the settings should be per login env, not per user, really both Xubuntu and US need changes for this
<ScottL> astraljava, just checked listadmin again and we got new emails about the liveFS
<ScottL> micahg, can this be done before A2?
<micahg> ScottL: that I'm not sure, in the mean time, I think we should just add a replaces on xubuntu-default-settings for a2
<ScottL> micahg, that i can do :)
<ScottL> i'll get this into my ppa and retest it
<ScottL> then i'll push to bzr
<micahg> ah, it can't find the task, not the package
<micahg> I think I got it
<micahg> umm, I should probably consult with cjwatson
<micahg> asked in #ubuntu-devel
<astraljava> Hmm... I don't fully understand the STRUCTURE file.
<micahg> ok, I think we've got it, cjwatson will respin
<astraljava> Yeah ok. It was just a notion. :)
<micahg> astraljava: I don't understand it entirely either, that's why I wanted to consult with cjwatson, my understanding is a little better now though :)
<astraljava> Heheh. :) Well, if you feel like sharing, please do. I didn't have such a pleasure. :)
<ScottL> was the discussion in #ubuntu-devel ?
<micahg> so, each line has a task with a list of tasks it depends on
<ScottL> ^^^ the STRUCTURE file
<micahg> graphics depends on font-meta in the graphics seed file, but wasn't set up that way in STRUCTURE
<astraljava> Oh okay, now it makes more sense. Thanks!
<ScottL> again, micahg , thank you very much for you help with studio!
<astraljava> We have a new gift from Micah and Colin! :D
<astraljava> Have at it, folks. I'm gonna watch the NHL All Stars game. :)
<ScottL> astraljava, any idea how to make changes to the ubuntustudio-meta package?
<ScottL> astraljava, specifically the -audio package where the rtprio.py is kept?
<ScottL> we need to disable it or remove it as it's adding the limits.d file
<astraljava> ScottL: I'll look into it, one second. Err... well, several. :)
<ScottL> http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-branches/ubuntu/precise/ubuntustudio-meta/precise/view/head:/rtprio.py
<micahg> ScottL: debian/ubuntustudio-audio.install
<ScottL> it's under 'ubuntu branches'
<micahg> ScottL: what do you want done?
<ScottL> micahg, i wanted to to either remove or comment out rtprio.py
<micahg> ScottL: do you still want ubuntustudio-audio-rtprio.conf installed?
<ScottL> micahg, it's adding lines to limits.d that have now been introduced into the jackd package but placed into a different file
<ScottL> micahg, i don't think we need it anymore since jackd handles it
<micahg> ok, I'll comment out both lines for the time being
<ScottL> micahg, additionally, something has been apparently renamed the /limits.d/audio.conf file as /limits.d/audio.conf.disabled
<ScottL> i'm not sure what is doing that though :/
<len>  would guess the jackd package
<len> I am downloading todays Iso. Will try it out and make a list of any apps missing for workflows as listed on thw workflow page
<ScottL> len, but the jackd is what installs the audio.conf file, i wouldn't expect it to also .disable it as well, but i can look at the code though
<ScottL> micahg, http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2012/01/26/%23ubuntustudio-devel.html @04:23 is where they are talking about it
<ScottL> if we don't keep the audio.conf file from being renamed to audio.conf.disabled then we don't have -rt privileges for the user (in the audio group)
<len> I think it disables it unless rt is oked at install time. ubiquity doesn't let the user do that.
 * ScottL is going outside with son for a while to push on swing :)
<len> We may want to do that with a postinstall script.
<len> Maybe as part of a theme package?
<micahg> not sure, I've got a meta upload pending, so just tell me what you need
<astraljava> micahg: I suppose we can just drop them both, at the moment (in Scott's absence)
<astraljava> ...so you get the upload done.
<micahg> there's a postinst script at the moment I"m not quite sure how to clean up
<astraljava> Ok, let me have a look too.
<astraljava> micahg: It only deals with rtprio.py, which we're not installing per recent decision, so the postinst can go too.
<micahg> right, I'm just wondering if we need a prerm to clean it up
<astraljava> Ahh... sorry. I suppose so, when upgrading.
<astraljava> if [ -e /usr/share/ubuntustudio-audio/rtprio.py ]
<astraljava>     then
<astraljava>       rm /usr/share/ubuntustudio-audio/rtprio.py 
<astraljava>     fi
<astraljava> micahg: Will that ^^ do? Otherwise just a copy of .postinst.
<astraljava> Oh, that'd be in the upgrade case.
<micahg> copy postinst and add that in for upgrade, ok, sounds good since it removes itself on upgrade anyways
<astraljava> micahg: I have an incoming commit, but did you do changes to the branch?
<micahg> which branch?  I don't use branches for -meta changes like that
<astraljava> Ahh... ok. How does that work, then?
<micahg> I just download the -meta and update it
<micahg> it pulls from the seeds
<astraljava> Oh ok. So you'll do the changes we agreed above?
<micahg> yeah
<astraljava> Great! Thanks! :)
<len> astraljava: The live DVD does not allow the install of an encrypted drive/partition. It seemed there was at least one party interested in that. Should that be  filed as a bug?
<len> The alt install allowed this.
<astraljava> len: That sounds a bit strange. I'll ask from the Xubuntu guys first.
<len> It does allow an encrypted home directory, but not drive/partition.
<len> Ubiquity has three choices, use a whole disk, shrink current os partitions and use whats left or set your own partitions.
<len> With the alt install, there were 5 or 6 choices and one was to encrypt the whole install (except for the /boot directory)
<scott-couch> len, you were right about jackd
<scott-couch> http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-branches/ubuntu/oneiric/jack-audio-connection-kit/oneiric/view/head:/debian/jackd1.postinst
<len> I took a look at the manual partitioning and there is no way that I can see to do that from there.
<scott-couch> disables the .conf file
<len> I figgred.
<len> *figured
<len> That probably also explains why the live dvd doesn't have RT
<astraljava> len: Micah said ubiquity has only supported encrypted home, so that's not a regression in the package, only in functionality when compared to the alternate installer. :)
#ubuntustudio-devel 2013-01-21
<micahg> ScottL: idk if I'll be at UDS, I'd like to go, but it's not a for sure at this point
<micahg> ScottL: as for meta uploads, those are easy, so I don't mind, it's just an update script + build test + upload
<micahg> ScottL: did you want a meta upload
<len-1304> micahg, from his comment at 1030 (my time this morning) it would seem that whenever you get to it yes.
<len-1304> <ScottL> i added synfigstudio to the graphcis and video seeds. whenever the metas get updated is okay (i think)
<micahg> len-1304: ah, ok
<len-1304> micahg, I am not sure what happened, but it seems -icon-theme got uploaded, (it showed up on my 13.04 update) but the web page doesn't show the release.
<len-1304> https://code.launchpad.net/~ubuntustudio-dev/ubuntustudio-icon-theme/UbuntuStudio
<micahg> len-1304: ooh, forgot to push I think
<len-1304> -default-settings too... or is it done? I don't see the changes
<micahg> no, that still needs uploading
<len-1304> OK
<micahg> -icon-theme pushed
<len-1304> Thank you
<micahg> sorry about that
<len-1304> NP, I haven't taken as much on this cycle, Life has more stuff for me to do.
 * micahg is updating the meta now
<micahg> meta uploaded
<scott-work> good morning everyone :_D
<scott-work> oops   :-D
<smartboyhw> scott-work, hello
 * smartboyhw is quite happy today
<smartboyhw> Got first in Physics!
<scott-work> congratulations! that is very commendable
 * scott-work liked physics in school along with math
<smartboyhw> scott-work, they are for tech guys:P
<scott-work> hehe, true
<scott-work> micahg: i would like to get bug #1057816 behind us. can you re-explain the options so i can make some changes and fix this?
<ubottu> bug 1057816 in livecd-rootfs (Ubuntu) "ubuntustudio live ISO does not include publishing and photography metas even though seeds are configured to do so." [High,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1057816
<smartboyhw> oh!?
<smartboyhw> scott-work, BTW you or zequence want to do a User Days session? https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UserDays
<scott-work> smartboyhw: that is possible for me to do
<zequence> I won't have the time :(
<micahg> scott-work: hrm?  they should be available in quantal and later
<smartboyhw> zequence, oh...
<scott-work> micahg: i think we were previously talking about fixing this in precise and SRU the update, is this possible or practicle?
<scott-work> practical
<smartboyhw> scott-work, ah!
 * smartboyhw thought scott-work is talking about raring:P
<micahg> scott-work: I guess we could SRU the livecd-rootfs and meta changes to precise if that's what you want, old users still won't get them on upgrade though (Bug #1066401)
<ubottu> bug 1066401 in ubuntustudio-meta (Ubuntu) "distribution upgrade to 12.10 omits two metas" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1066401
<smartboyhw> That is the biggest problem
<scott-work> hmmmm, _that_ i need to think about while i'm not working :P  i will think through this this afternoon and have a direction at that time
<scott-work> although i might still ask a few questions before having a decision ;)
<micahg> sure
<smartboyhw> scott-work, len-1304 a question: Is ubuntustudio-icon-theme now an enough replacement to xubuntu-icon-theme? If yes than we can remove it from our seeds
<micahg> smartboyhw:' apt-cache show ubuntustudio-icon-theme | grep Depends' should answer your question if you're on raring
<micahg> or reading the description of the package
<smartboyhw> micahg, oops:P
 * smartboyhw yawns
<scott-work> micahg: it looks like the fix for bug#1057816 takes care of the items on the blueprint/status.ubuntu.com (which was my original primary concern)
<scott-work> micahg: do you have a suggestion for fixing bug#1066401?
<scott-work> i'm not sure that a dummy package (which is really my only experience in somewhat-similar circumstances) is appropriate
<scott-work> zequence: didn't we file an RT ticket about getting email address for @ubuntustudio.com
<scott-work> ?
<zequence> scott-work: We did
<scott-work> i will mark it as done on the blueprint then. thanks :)
<scott-work> zequence: did you notice that many of our blueprints do not show up on status.ubuntu.com? i presume that was intentional
<zequence> scott-work: Only the ones that are tied to the raring bluepring
<zequence> blueprint
<scott-work> oh, oh. that's right. we had talked about this before.
<scott-work> sorry. i remember now
<zequence> scott-work: Did you make more dependencies? Seems like they all depend on the permanent blueprint
<scott-work> i haven't changed anything other than marking "done" or "inprogress"
<zequence> This changed some time ago. Maybe a couple of months ago
<scott-work> i noticed what you are describing yesterday and by accident
<scott-work> errr, micahg , i am wrong about the bugs and the blueprint: bug#1066401 is what the blueprint is describing. however, we are still at the same point with me asking if you have any suggestions ;)
<scott-work> i notice that 12.04.2 is schedule in the upcoming months, would that be a good time to address this?
<scott-work> ttoine: i got an answer from twitter last night. i should respond this afternoon to it to get the right username :-D
<ttoine> scott-work, great news !!
<ttoine> scott-work, we have done the fisrt mixes on the mixbus workstation
<ttoine> quite good, just a bug with 3 harrison plugins because of OpenGL and the catalyst drive
<ttoine> drvier
<ttoine> driver
<ttoine> scott-work, any news for the ubuntustudio.org emails ?
<scott-work> ttoine: good news about the mixes, but i don't have any news about the emails
<zequence> ttoine: scott-work: Whenever there will be a change about the email, we'll all be notified, as I put us all as requestors
<zequence> ..about the @ubuntustudio.org emails, that is
<scott-work> added 'ubuntu studio' to this page: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UserDays
<scott-work> just to the line that says" check out these great products!"
<scott-work> is kinda disappointing that we keep getting left off of these things from time to time, but of course, i have been adding us into them ;)
<ttoine> ;-)
<zequence> Got some ideas from this http://alias.sh/
<zequence> Takes a while to learn how to make use of the tools you have
<ttoine> what is for ?
<scott-work> something with a .sh extension makes me nervous to click
<zequence> It's a way to store bash_alias in the cloud. But, just using aliases can improve your workflow
<zequence> Like, an alias for preparing your system for development: prepare-dev. And that would install all the stuff you need
<scott-work> kinda like 'sudo apt-get install build-essential' ;P
<scott-work> but really you need to install more than just that, sadly :/
<zequence> There are a lot of examples on aliases at the site
<zequence> I use scripts for some things, which is basically the same thing, only I don't have a command for it. I need to find the script to execute it
<zequence> I guess this one might be handy for a lot of people http://alias.sh/extract-most-know-archives-one-command
<zequence> So, that would create an alias called extract, which would be like a multipurpose decompressor. You do: extract <myfile>, and you don't need to know which command goes with which file format.
<len-1304> scott-work, The only way I can think to add metas to an already released ISO is to add them to the desktop meta for that ISO.
<len-1304> Then when the user updates the desktop iso, the new metas will get added.
<zequence> btw, we don't have a tasksel for our desktop atm
<zequence> We should change that
<len-1304> zequence, what is tasksel?
<scott-work> zequence: the idea was to use the ubiquity plugin to choose which packages to install
<scott-work> len-1304: tasksel is what we used before that looks like ncurses and lets you choose which meta to install
<len-1304> Have to create the plugin...
<len-1304> Ok
<len-1304> I remember.
<scott-work> i would really like to complete this as well
<len-1304> Didn't know it had a name.
<zequence> len-1304: If you install using the Ubuntu netinstall image, you get to choose which desktop and some other choices too. Those are tasksels. There are some for servers too
<scott-work> just for the record :P   http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_SxnEyE2bzLI/SCcL-79UzrI/AAAAAAAAC4c/_5d0nA35qOU/s400/34dscn2301.jpg
<zequence> We should have both
<len-1304> Any of the alt disks.
<zequence> Well, I don't think there are any other alt disks anymore
<scott-work> nope, just live-dvd
<len-1304> zubuntu?
<len-1304> opps xubuntu
<zequence> Ah, maybe the other flavors have, yeah
<scott-work> i was hoping janne would finish the plugin but i don't think it will happen
<scott-work> does anyone want to take on finishing the plugin?
<zequence> There was talk about minimizing the amount of metas too. I think we should do that also. One for each workflow
<len-1304> I am still learning a bit of python
<scott-work> zequence: would that minimize them?
<len-1304> scott-work, there are three or four audio metas. Two would be enough.
<len-1304> (one for plugins)
<len-1304> We may not even need that as I don't know any good reason to install audio without them.
<zequence> I could see the point in either having just one for each workflow, which would be our standard set of apps. Then, maybe also another one called -extra
<zequence> The -extra meta would never be on the DVD
<zequence> How about that?
<scott-work> hmmm. i forgot about the audio-common, but would you want to not separate the "record your band (recording)" and "i can't play any instruments (generation)" metas then?
<scott-work> sorry, that was directed at len-1304 ^^^
<len-1304> I figured :)
<scott-work> oh, hehe :)
<zequence> If we had ubuntustudio-audio, -video, -graphics, etc. Those would be on the DVD. Then, ubuntustudio-audio-extra, -video-extra. Those would be installable over the net, and would give the user anything that would make sense including
<len-1304> The problem is, that the generation should depend on the plugins... but recording does as well for effects
<len-1304> Even recording a band, if there is a keyboard player, they will probably be one of the computer people and want to record their part as midi to play with later.
<len-1304> scott-work, I don't see a real reason to keep generation separate.
<zequence> I don't see the reason to keep anything separate. It's not that big of a deal to install the full set, if we keep it polished
<zequence> Per workflow, that is
<zequence> I'm thinking a little iMaccy there
<len-1304> I think I agree.
<zequence> And during install, it would be nice to have a plugin in ubiquity that had only the workflows, and maybe also -extra which would then require network to install
<zequence> But, probably I'd just prefer to see one for each workflow, during install anyway
<len-1304> IS it possible to have a ubiquity plugin run tasksel?
<zequence> It might even be preferable for us to have the option of installing -generic over the network, instead of -lowlatency, for those that do not use audio apps at all
<scott-work> len-1304: i'm not sure we have the expertise in channel to answer that question
<scott-work> stefan graber would the one who wrote the ubiqutiy plugin (i believe)
<len-1304> I suspect it would be just as easy to write a plugin that does the job.
<zequence> len-1304: Instead of keeping metas and tasksels for them?
<len-1304> Instead? we would still need the metas.
<zequence> Yeah
<len-1304> tasksel means it is possible to install from the netiso
<scott-work> if you two think that combining the 'generation' and 'recording' metas into a single one is okay, then i'm on board as well
<zequence> And the tasksels might not be priority, but those should fall in line with everything else of course
<zequence> So, what do guys think of keeping -extra metas for all those apps that are nice, but won't fit into a standard DVD install?
<zequence> For audio, we could add all the plugins there, for example
<zequence> While keeping a smaller but highly functional set in the ubuntustudio-audio meta
<zequence> Another idea is to have more extras. ubuntustudio-audio-extra-plugins, ubuntustudio-audio-extra-sequencers, etc. 
<zequence> It's a nice way to browser for apps, when you can find them all in one place
<zequence> browse*
<zequence> And some might want to have the entire set for a specific workflow as well
<zequence> net split?
<zequence> Len-nb: The -extra in the menu are nice. I guess those are already quite valuable. But, those could also be made into specific metas. Too many metas could be a problem too of course
<zequence> Just an idea. I'd settle for just keeping the workflow metas for now, and as for broader content, I guess there are many ways to achieve that
<zequence> btw, what is this? https://code.launchpad.net/~ubuntustudio-dev/ffmpeg/debian.git
<scott-work> zequence: i think the plugins are a necessity for audio, not sure i would want them inside a package with a bunch of other items
<scott-work> also, i second "<zequence> Just an idea. I'd settle for just keeping the workflow metas for now, and as for broader content, I guess there are many ways to achieve that"
<scott-work> let's make the change, evaluate, then make changes as needed
<scott-work> zequence: that code^^^, i didn't click the link at this point, but i believe we (ubuntu or ubuntustudio, i think it's us though) roll a special ffmpeg version, but can't remember why
<scott-work> oh yeah, that's rexbron's copy of it he "maintains". i think it's for the libav-code-extras-53 package or something similar
<scott-work> Len-nb: zequence: do either one of you want to volunteer to work out the plugin? if not, i'll see if i can tackle it next cycle then
<zequence> scott-work: I'll have a look at it. You know where the source is/goes?
<scott-work> zequence: for the plugin? there was some code that janne was working on. i will look now....
<scott-work> zequence: https://code.launchpad.net/~ubuntustudio-dev/ubuntustudio-live/ubuntustudio-live.precise
<scott-work> edubuntu would be a good resource as well as they use this
<scott-work> also, this had good information when we were researching the plugin: https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/other-p-ubuntustudio-livedvd
<zequence> scott-work: Thanks. I'll have a look at it during the week.
<scott-work> zequence: if you can get this working that would be exceptionally sweet.
<scott-work> i feel like we get too wrapped up in audio and in order to help make this nice for other disciplines who want to install stuff.
<scott-work> oh, that sentence should have "having this options would be very, very good." ;)
<ttoine> wow. RME USB sound cards are getting USB 2 audio class complients, in order to work with the ipad
<scott-work> Len-nb: so if we add the photography and publishing meta to the desktop seeds, then users should get this when they update ubuntu studio and it should come in as default for 12.04.02. is this correct?
<ttoine> the benefice is that once Alsa will fix some bugs in the usb2 audio driver, those sound cards will works out of the box
<ttoine> can't wait !
<len-1304> scott-work, that should do it. Then I think 12.10 takes care of itself.
<len-1304> The only thing to look for is that the 12.04 seeds are correct for those two metas.
<len-1304> I haven't looked.
<len-1304> We fixed them in 12.10
 * len-1304 is picking kids up.
<scott-work> len-1304: i'll compare 12.10 photography and publishing metas to what is in 12.04 and then update the 12.04 desktop in the next couple of days then
<scott-work> i'll probably confirm with micahg that i'm not doing anything wrong first through
<scott-work> but for now, i'm going home
#ubuntustudio-devel 2013-01-22
<ttoine> hello
<zequence> ttoine: hi
<ttoine> zequence,, what's up ?
<zequence> ttoine: Cleaning, at home. I've been throwing away stuff for the whole year, and it seems I have nothing else to throw now. It's a nice feeling when the idea of sorting everything you own seems like a piece of cake
<zequence> I've come to realize it's very important for me to have a minimal amount of objects in my home. Otherwise, like in Chinese Feng Shui, if your home surrounding is in bad shape, your mind will be in bad shape
<zequence> And my home quickly becomes chaotic, if I don't keep things simple
<zequence> plus, someone called me today asking me to come to a job interview
<zequence> So, that felt ok
<zequence> It's better when companies chase you, and not the other way around :P
<zequence> ttoine: How's your baby doing?
<jussi> zequence: job interviews are nice. what do you do? 
<zequence> jussi: Until now, I've been mostly doing hard labour, but I'm kind of moving towards IT. There seems to be a big interest for qualified Linux admins
<zequence> Sorry, manual labour
<jussi> hehe
 * jussi imagines zequence in the salt mines... :P
<zequence> Well, I did work in cold warehouses for a while, -25 C
<zequence> But, salt mines are probably a bit worse :)
<jussi> hehe
<astraljava> Hard labour is what midwives do, no?
<ttoine> zequence, hehe, I agree, always better when company chase you
<ttoine> astraljava, ?
<scott-work> good morning
 * scott-work had trouble with logging onto webchat this morning
<scott-work> it is quite in here today
<zequence> scott-work: I'd say it quite often is :).
<scott-work> micahg: re: bug #1066401, would updating the desktop meta to include photography and publishing metas be a viable options for precise? would this be an SRU?
<ubottu> bug 1066401 in ubuntustudio-meta (Ubuntu) "distribution upgrade to 12.10 omits two metas" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1066401
<scott-work> zequence: that's kinda sad, maybe i can help that
<scott-work> oh, this reminds me, someone emailed me about helping with studio and i told him, among other things, to come onto irc
 * scott-work is looking up his name
<zequence> scott-work: I don't feel we do too little talking myself
<scott-work> james jordin is his name
<zequence> Nice
<zequence> We need more people who have more time to do the work. There aren't that much we need to talk about as it is now, I feel
<zequence> We're on course with things, but we need to get them done too
<zequence> Tons of stuff I have yet to do for this cycle
<zequence> Just looking at the team structure tells you that the same names turn up in way too many teams
<zequence> We have more teams than developers
<zequence> That's kind of funny, when you think about it
<zequence> It's like the plummer you meet at the hotel. He's also the bellboy, and the manager/owner
<scott-work> absolutely, it is
<zequence> No absolute disaster, if US stays in it's current shape. It works. It does its job. Of course, it could be enhanced in so many ways
<scott-work> *sigh* so true
<micahg> scott-work: well, technically, I think that's new feature stuff...but it might fly
<micahg> that won't fix the users who have already upgraded though
<scott-work> micahg: understood about people who have upgraded already
<scott-work> micahg: i would presume my next step is to update the seeds and file an SRU?
<micahg> you might want to ask the SRU team if they mind, it shouldn't be a problem to cherry pick the fixes to get it on the precise ISOs
<scott-work> i'll see if i can find a few SRU team members on IRC and ask them :)
#ubuntustudio-devel 2013-01-23
<zequence> I realized it might be worth having a script for setting up a developer environment
<zequence> I'm working on a ubuntustudio-devel "package"
<zequence> or, I should probably call it ubuntustudio-dev-tools
<zequence> Will create a bzr branch for it, once it's usable for something
<micahg> !info packaging-dev
<ubottu> packaging-dev (source: packaging-dev): convenient tools to develop packages. In component universe, is optional. Version 0.5 (quantal), package size 2 kB, installed size 26 kB
<micahg> zequence: ^^
<zequence> micahg: Thanks. My script will also help check the system for gpg, ssh, variables, and let the user add things that are missing. If I were to make a package out of it, I'd have it depend on existing dev packages. I wasn't aware of this one, actually.
<zequence> There are two reasons for the extra help. 1. make new developers aware of what they need. 2. the script can be used just to check if all is in place
<micahg> zequence: ok, maybe such a script could live in ubuntu-dev-tools if sufficiently geenric
<micahg> *generic
<zequence> micahg: Should work. But, now that you mentioned that package, I should probably look through the available tools first :).
<zequence> Like "setup-packaging-environment"
<micahg> might work for packaging-dev as well
<zequence> I think most of what I was considering might. But, if I add bzr stuff, then it might better belong in ubuntu-dev-tools. I could also split things up. And if it gets really specific, than perhaps a ubuntustudio-dev-tools, or just a downloadable script could depend on those
<zequence> I think the only really non generic thing I was considering was ensuring there was some kind of keyring in place. I forget exactly where there might be problems for the inexperienced. Need to set up a system from scratch and see. 
<zequence> Well, maybe not non-generic. And it would be selectable, as everything else
<astraljava> Hey guys, haven't read this myself, yet, but might have some good tips on the graphics side of things: http://bit.ly/V69PI9
<astraljava> Title is 'Professional Graphics Creation on Linux'.
<zequence> astraljava: Something I've seen before is people recommending Krita
<zequence> I'm thinking of ways to enhance information flow directed towards us regarding linux multimedia
<zequence> G+ has some great pages for that, which I do subscribe to
<zequence> I'm thinking of creating other google based feeds
<astraljava> Sounds good. If you can make it public, please do share.
<zequence> astraljava: found this https://code.google.com/apis/console/. An explanation on how to create a rss feed on a search http://www.labnol.org/internet/rss-feeds-for-google-searches/19944/
<zequence> Ah, need to go. will have to look at that when I return
<astraljava> zequence: Cool beans, thanks!
<smartboyhw> Hello ScottL 
<smartboyhw> scott-work, hello
 * smartboyhw found out he said hello to the wrong place:P
<scott-work> good morning smartboyhw 
 * smartboyhw is happy now he knew how to update packages:P
<scott-work> how do you update packages?
<smartboyhw> scott-work, actually I found it on developer.ubuntu.com and played with a package
<smartboyhw> called rt-tests
<smartboyhw> Got sponsored just a few hours ago
<scott-work> super cool then
<smartboyhw> scott-work, BTW the team structure that you posted in your blog, I just can't understand the right hand side of it
<zequence> smartboyhw: How did you update it? Did you request a sync from Debian?
<smartboyhw> zequence, no. Look at the bottom part of http://developer.ubuntu.com/packaging/html/udd-merging.html (sid is just outdated for 2 releases)
<smartboyhw> Anyway, DON'T TRY:P
<smartboyhw> Gee looking at the "lunchtime thoughts" and then probably zequence will have 3 positions as leads (tech, kernel, doc)
<zequence> smartboyhw: Please do not update packages in Ubuntu repos just for fun. If you want them updated, do it in Debian. Then request a sync
<zequence> smartboyhw: There is someone responsible of that package in Debian probably
<zequence> If Debian is behind, find out why, and if you really need a package updated, try to make it happen in Debian
<smartboyhw> zequence, I did ping that guy, and he said he will probably have the update in sid some three months after the debian freeze lifted.....
<zequence> And Experimental?
<scott-work> smartboyhw: sorry, was planning on responding on g+, which i still probably will
<scott-work> smartboyhw: i was graphically showing (to myself) how the various teams would be included in each other
<smartboyhw> scott-work, oh
<scott-work> right now it's a mess and i screwed up by accepting a few invitations which put -devel as a team of other teams, which i don't agree with now
<scott-work> e.g. the -nightly team should be a member of -devel IMO, not the other way around
<smartboyhw> scott-work, well then do you think that pic is good enough?
 * smartboyhw is in crisis mode for clashing QA sessions with Developer Week
<smartboyhw> lol
<scott-work> smartboyhw: good enough for what? i was just sharing my personal brainstorming
<smartboyhw> scott-work, good enough for real world team planning:
<smartboyhw> :p
<scott-work> my next step is to write a few sentence as the purpose for each team
<scott-work> once i do that then i would post a more formalized version to the -devel mailing list
<scott-work> asking for opinions and suggestions
<scott-work> oh, i should point out that the names that are listed by teams are basically people who are functioning (say they want to function) in those capacities
<scott-work> ....and that was literally a fifteen minute exercise to organize my thoughts on what the teams are, what teams _should_ be
<zequence> scott-work: I'd really like to talk about switching the desktop background for next release
<zequence> The idea of it is nice, but the resolution is not that great
<zequence> Becomes more apparent on a bigger screen
<zequence> scott-work: I've noticed you'd like more community input. I guess you were looking for art as well. 
<zequence> I mean, from looking at the blueprints
<zequence> I forget the details. Don't really want to dive too deeply into it. 
<zequence> As for art, I only feel strongly about changing the wallpaper
<scott-work> zequence: i don't personally have any problem changing the background, do you have any suggestions at this time?
<zequence> scott-work: Nope
<zequence> scott-work: I guess it would make sense to have some sort of a submission thing, with a deadline
<zequence> We could post about it on all the channels we have, and mail lists
<scott-work> zequence: there are a few other items that i would like to address before getting into the art stuff from the blueprints, but i not only agree about posting on the channels, i had planned to do this is the next week or so
<zequence> scott-work: All right :)
<zequence> progress on -controls has really been slow. I should try to whip something up now. Actually wrote some c code not long ago, to check the values for rtprio and memlock
<zequence> If I can just get the realtime admin part into shape, with the gui, I feel it's enough to push it.
<falktx> ...hmm
<falktx> zequence: wasn't there some kind of meeting happening?
<len-1304> falktx, Last thursday?
<ScottL> falktx, would you like to have a meeting? we can do that :)
<ScottL> hiya len-1304 
<falktx> kinda, yes
<falktx> hey ScottL, hey all
<falktx> damn I've been so busy... sorry everyone
<len-1304> OK, I have about 15min.
<ScottL> falktx, was there something particular you wanted to discuss?
<falktx> yes, Cadence :)
<falktx> the first tools in here: http://kxstudio.sourceforge.net/KXStudio:Applications
<len-1304> Must be ready to go?
<falktx> I'm shaping them for release, v1.0
<len-1304> Great!
<falktx> I had issues with my c++ code for my plugin host
<falktx> so I've put that into a separate project
<falktx> there's nothing stopping the release now, aside from a few unimplemented things
<len-1304> So long as they don't show in the menus that should not be a problem
<ScottL> cool
<len-1304> falktx, Are you releasing them through debian or directto ubuntu?
<falktx> len-1304: I want them in debian
<len-1304> Good idea.
<falktx> is it too late?
<ScottL> that's good, you will reach a lot of people that way (including the ubuntu ones)
<len-1304> never too late :)   Too late for what?
 * falktx prepapes PPA packages for testing, 0 external depencies
<falktx> len-1304: for 13.04 repo inclusion
<len-1304> I don't think so.
<zequence> falktx: Are you pushing it to Debian?
<zequence> Ah, you said that
<len-1304> There is no alpha date this time.
<zequence> There is a feature freeze, as always
<falktx> this week I'm finishing my plugin host code, but next week I have time for Cadence
<len-1304> When?
<falktx> zequence: when ?
<falktx> hehe
<len-1304> My when was for FF
<zequence> falktx: March 7th
<falktx> ah, plenty of time!
<zequence> falktx: Ah, no
<zequence> falktx: There's a Debian import freeze before that
<falktx> ScottL: let me prepare some base packages. I would like to discuss Cadence inclusion on UbuntuStudio later on
<zequence> falktx: Don't know if we can make an exception
<falktx> zequence: oh, when is that?
<zequence> February 14th
<zequence> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/RaringRingtail/ReleaseSchedule
<len-1304> could they be released to both debian and ubuntu?
<zequence> We might be able to request a sync if the deadline is not met
<falktx> len-1304: yes, my target is to get them into debian first, then backport to 13.04
<falktx> but I have 0 experience getting a package into debian
<ScottL> sorry, back. falktx you should talk with alessio from debian multimedia, he can probably help quite a bit
<len-1304> I haven't either.
<ScottL> the debian multimedia guys are _very_ passionate about packaging and providing help to get packages in
<ScottL> falktx, is cadence "debianized"?
<ScottL> meaning, does it have the changelog, control file, etc?
<falktx> yes, it's already in KXStudio so it's already debian-ready
<falktx> as much as my debian packaging skills go...
<ScottL> heh, yeah. duh, i should have realized that ;)
<len-1304> What I thought, would it help if we did some testing?
<ScottL> i'd be up to help with some testing too
<len-1304> falktx, is it testable against 13.04 alpha? or just 12.04?
<falktx> len-1304: I'll prepare packages for 12.04<->13.04
<ScottL> i'll be back in about ten minutes or so, doing stuff with son
<falktx> I'm uploading to https://launchpad.net/~falk-t-j/+archive/cadence/
<ttoine> hello
<ttoine> http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2013/01/ubuntu-considers-huge-change-that-would-end-traditional-release-cycle/
<zequence> ttoine: Yeah, I saw that today too. 
<falktx> I read that
<falktx> I wish it was true
<zequence> Probably means the way we work would change. We do updates to an existing release much more
<falktx> 2 hours for packages to build
<ttoine> falktx, would be great, yeah
<ttoine> but would it mean less stability ? for server use, as an example
<falktx> just don't update server packages then?
<falktx> server != desktop
<falktx> I say update desktop stuff like gimp, but leave apache alone
<len-1304> I am not sure but I would hope that an LTS still keeps the same versions through it's cycle.
<falktx> major versions maybe, but at least update minor ones
<len-1304> The rolling release would be like dev for the next LTS, but usable as it gets worked on.
<len-1304> Sort of like using 13.04 on a daily basis if you are not going LTS
<len-1304> Gotta go. Might be back in a few hours.
<zequence> They could just make the update choices different. 
<falktx> yeah, different repos
<falktx> raring-updates
<falktx> raring-updates-extra
<falktx> etc
<ScottL> i would worry about new features and a rolling release
<ScottL> do you avoid all new features, just major ones, or wait until LTS to do them
<ScottL> is there a side development branch for pre-testing?
<ScottL> yadda, yadda, yadda
<ScottL> for example, what if Unity was developed during a rolling release development
<ScottL> ?
<ttoine> ScottL, it would be like gmail and google apps
<ttoine> a few mofications from time to time to anoy users a few day
<ttoine> but small improvements may be good too
<ttoine> look at firefox, in the past, we had only one major release per ubuntu release
<ttoine> now, we have the new one every two weeks. quite good for security
<ttoine> if fixes are available more often, it is good !
<ttoine> no need anymore to ask for backport in old lts, etc...
<ttoine> well, good night !
<ScottL> i guess that is a good point, but there would still need to probably be some side development before it was pushed though
<zequence> I'm thinking 14.04, 14.04.1, etc. But, those who want only security updates would not get any feature changes for the duration of the release
<micahg> new firefox every 6 weeks...
<micahg> for features + rolling release, you land features when they're ready, only time you're conservative is close to the LTS, at that point, you want to be focusing on polish anyways
#ubuntustudio-devel 2013-01-24
<falktx> damn launchpad builds are slow
<micahg> falktx: need an official backport? ;)
<falktx> micahg: need to get into debian first 
<falktx> micahg: do you have any experience on that?
<micahg> getting into Debian? no
<micahg> http://mentors.debian.net/
<micahg> if it's multimedia related, I could help if I actually registered an SSH key with alioth
<falktx> I once registered to alioth as guest
<micahg> I'm registered, I just can't do anything until I create an SSH key for alioth
<micahg> which package?
<falktx> cadence
<falktx> if you want to take a peak:
<falktx> https://launchpad.net/~falk-t-j/+archive/cadence/+sourcepub/2945130/+listing-archive-extra
<falktx> it's a git version, so no orig tarball
<micahg> I don't see an ITP
<falktx> ITP?
<micahg> intent to pacakge
<falktx> I'm blind related to real debian business
<falktx> I need to first finish the software though
<micahg> ok, well, I could help you maintain it under Debian Multimedia I suppose (I can't upload though)
<falktx> I need to speak with alessio later it seems
<falktx> I'll ask him why the debug builds too
<micahg> falktx: when you're ready, you'll want to run lintian on the binaries as there is quite a mess there
<falktx> I've already done that
<falktx> package is almost clean
<micahg> falktx: try lintian -iIEv --pedantic
<falktx> run that over what?
<micahg> .changes for the binaries
<micahg> I got several screens of warnings and errors
<falktx> ok let me try that
<falktx> hm yeah, I need to install into /usr/lib as 644 not 755
<falktx> nice verbose output
<falktx> micahg: thanks for the tip! 
<micahg> falktx: you're welcome
<falktx> hm, cadence 32bit builds finished
<falktx> anyone would like to try?
<falktx> sudo add-apt-repository -y ppa:falk-t-j/cadence
<falktx> sudo apt-get update
<falktx> sudo apt-get install cadence
<falktx> :)
<falktx> (64bit packages building)
<ScottL> we now have a @ubuntustudio twtitter feed :-)
<falktx> alls builds finished
<Len-nb> falktx, Cadence on the tweaks screen, clicking on LADSPA, DSSI, LV2 or VST opens that option, it would be nice if a second click closes it. VST is off the bottom of my screen so I can't click on it to get it back unless I move the window up off the top of the screen.
<falktx> hm, not sure if qt allows that
<Len-nb> I guess my screen is just too small :)
<Len-nb> I'm 1024x600 on this netbook... maybe not your target machine :)
<falktx> it depends on the theme
<Len-nb> falktx, what are the Timer and Announce ports that show up in Catia when show ALSA-MIDI is selected?
<Len-nb> what program is used for alsa-jack bridging?
<falktx> the ports are just what alsa reports 
<falktx> I don't use them, nor do I know if they are useful at all, but they are reported by alsa
<Len-nb> OK
<falktx> alsa-jack bridging is done in cadence (the main tool)
<Len-nb> So not alsa-in or zita-ajbridge. ok
<falktx> lol
<falktx> it actually uses alsa-in/out and possibly zita
<falktx> don't judge a book by its cover ;)
<falktx> I just named it "ALSA Audio Bridge" because it makes more sense
<falktx> like "ALSA MIDI Bridge" instead of "A2J MIDI Bridge"
<falktx> or a2jmidid
<Len-nb> I am told that zita is better quality than alsa_in
<Len-nb> Uses less cpu too. I haven't really done a good compare though.
<Len-nb> I have been trying lots of add things the last while just to see if they work.
<Len-nb> netjack has taught me some things. Jack (pulse and netjack too) use more resources for more ports.
<Len-nb> This should be obvious
<Len-nb> but it didn't really hit me till I tried netjack with 20i/20o lines and ran pulse bridged to it and jack was reporting dsp 57%
<Len-nb> Then I tried comparing two PCI cards 2 tracks and 10 without net and it still showed the difference in dsp use.
<Len-nb> So I now know that my D66 uses the same resources as the d1010
<Len-nb> because the ice1712 looks like 12in/10out
<Len-nb> falktx, how come Cadence reports a different latency than qjackctl? qjackctl says 17.4 and cadence says 5.3... using -p256
<falktx> qjackctl can access the buffer/periods setting and calculates using that too
<falktx> cadence does not because jack doesn't provide that API
<falktx> the qjackctl calculation is kinda wrong, it assumes jack was start ONLY via qjackctl which is not always the case
<falktx> Len-nb: oh, and zita uses *much more* CPU than alsa_in/out
<falktx> plus, it's buggy
<Len-nb> it is quite new. I haven't seen any bugs yet though.
<falktx> I did, random crashes
<falktx> it doesn't like that apps are constantly opening and closing
<Len-nb> anyway off to bed. Thanks for the new toy I'll play more later.
<zequence> ScottL: Nice (about the twitter)
<smartboyhw> Hey yo scott-work 
<smartboyhw> Why is Canonical turning Ubuntu into LTS releases ONLY? Is Canonical in a finanicial  crisis such that they couldn't even maintain the new releases?
<scott-work> smartboyhw: i don't have the answer
<smartboyhw> scott-work, I knew that:P You aren't even an Canonical employee:P
<jussi> smartboyhw: because it makes sense t do that...
<scott-work> however, i would suggest this is a decision based on desired results
<smartboyhw> jussi, for what sense?
<jussi> (and no, not canonical employee either)
<scott-work> i speculate this is to support other items, perhaps the phone or tablet endeavours
<jussi> smartboyhw: because they are trying to achieve a stable product across form factors
<smartboyhw> jussi, well then I think having a release once per year is better than two
<jussi> its pretty much like this anyway, but slightly convoluted, so they are removing the "busy work" 
<jussi> 2 years is actually a very nice cadence
<astraljava> smartboyhw: From what I understand, companies that matter use LTS releases only, and pay for the support on those. They don't care about the intermediate, "testing releases" if you will. Having those milestones quite frankly just eat up valuable core dev time, that could be better spent in polishing the valuable releases.
<astraljava> Users like us can use rolling releases in between just fine, what does it matter whether we have to do-release-upgrade in between LTS releases?
<astraljava> I haven't read the official announcement nor followed the discussion henceforth, so that's just my reflection on hearsay and gossip. :)
<smartboyhw> lol
<smartboyhw> astraljava, well it's half-gossip, a Canonical employee (to be exact, it is Leann Ogasawara, the Canonical Ubuntu Kernel Team Manager) said about it in a on-air video:P
<scott-work> jussi: you bring up a good point, i imagine there is a nice inflection point of release schedule versus efficient work
<scott-work> i.e. too quick release brings too much "busy work" of announcing, emailing, testing compared to actual development
<jussi> scott-work: mind, he other side of it is that releases bring publicity, which is a good thing...
<scott-work> very true ;)
<smartboyhw> scott-work, but two years is way too far I think
<scott-work> smartboyhw: perhaps for non-corporate desktop users, techies, or developers...but maybe this is a slightly conservative starting point for consideration when phones and tablet and tvs are thrown into the mix
<scott-work> perhaps when the other products are established, practices are standardized, and teams are more fleshed out, then the cadence may shift to one year per release
<smartboyhw> yeah
<jussi> smartboyhw: tell me something - how often does microsoft release a new windows version?
<smartboyhw> jussi, wait this is a different scenario
<jussi> smartboyhw: how so? 
<smartboyhw> Also don't forget, there is AT LEAST Developer Preview and Consumer Preview and Release Preview for Windows 8
<smartboyhw> That will mean for us like three releases
<smartboyhw> jussi, and also Ubuntu is open source, while Windows is not
<jussi> smartboyhw: so consider, with a rolling release, the techie/developer etc dont need to have those previews - they always are up to date where the development is up to
<smartboyhw> jussi, so tell me then: How does a rolling release prepare for betas (and presumably Alphas)?
<jussi> Hrm?
<smartboyhw> jussi, think
<smartboyhw> One user wants the newest things for his computer
<smartboyhw> Let it's June 2015
<smartboyhw> The last LTS should be 14.04 (April 2014)
<smartboyhw> Then the user will need to spend a lot of time (after installation) to actually upgrade all his packages!
<jussi> smartboyhw: I dont think they meant that point releases on the lts's were going away
<jussi> in anycase, I need to run - Ill be happy to annoy you later
<smartboyhw> jussi, and I will be leaving soon either
<astraljava> smartboyhw: The advantage of getting rid of intermediate releases is that there's no need to support several releases at once. Just shove an updated package into the rolling release, you're done. Only a handful (two?) LTS releases needing support at the same time.
<scott-work> that was an interesting comment about updating packages after installation. i wonder how true that might be
<len-1304> what is oneconf? and should it be a part of US?
<len-1304> (it is right now)
<zequence> Looks like something to do with ubuntuone
<len-1304> Should we black list it?
<zequence> Maybe we should add a workitem on clearing up why we have it
<len-1304> It seems to be crashing... maybe because we don't have U1.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2013-01-25
<micahg> len-1304: oneconf is synchronized config management
<len-1304> That much I figured, just not why it would be of use to US
<micahg> audio settings syncd across machines?
<len-1304> I would think someone with more than one computer would have one used for audio and one not.
<micahg> len-1304: software-center pulls it in
<len-1304> I suppose if you ran a place with many computers (one for each recording room)
<len-1304> That was my thought.
<micahg> len-1304: http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-archive/germinate-output/ubuntustudio.raring/desktop makes things like that easier :)
<len-1304> Does it just crash for Studio or has it been crashing in vanilla too?
<len-1304> Actually I haven't had another crash since today's oneconf update. Will have to see if it shows tomorrow morning.
<astraljava> Funny, after reading the explanation by Leann, she seems to say just what I thought it to mean. (re: moving to rolling releases in the future)
<zequence_> I think it's funny how big that story became from her just mentioning that during a g+hangout
<zequence> Hard for me to say how many people are for such a change. At least, it seemed it's still only in the idea stage, and being discussed
<astraljava> Yeah, well people who don't understand how distribution release process works get easily scared by such big words.
<astraljava> I'm not saying I do, but I seem to notice the plus sides of the proposed change.
 * astraljava finds Ghost Brigade works really well for getting into the zone for programming.
<zequence> Got to check them up right away
 * zequence is exteremely picky with music
<zequence> We don't have a youtube channel, right?
<zequence> ubuntustudio@gmail is taken, to no surprise
<zequence> ubustudio is still available though. I'm getting it
<astraljava> zequence: Did you, and if yes, then how did you like them?
<scott-work> morning everyone
<scott-work> zequence: len-1304: micahg: is there anything you think i should include in the release team email?
<zequence> scott-work: I can't think of anything myself
<scott-work> zequence: thanks
<zequence> astraljava: I have great difficulty with anything mainstream. If it's easy listening, it still needs to have some sharp edges, at those levels of perception which communicates to me. I think this is different for everyone. Some people like melodies, some rhythms, some the voice, some the sonor==sound of the whole thing. I thought it was ok, but I might not put it on too often
<zequence> scott-work: Do we have a youtube channel?
<zequence> I was investigating how that works today
<zequence> Started a new account ubustudio@gmail.com. ubuntustudio was of course taken. Any chance it was someone we know?
<zequence> I reserved the name just for the sake of it, and to have a neutral account on which I can experiment
<zequence> I haven't gotten how one can set a title that is not a personal name on the channel for instance. Perhaps one needs to upload a video, and monetize it?
<zequence> Well, I was investigating that kind of stuff anyway
<zequence> astraljava: It's like a mix of doom, grunge and some recent stuff
<scott-work> zequence: i played around with a youtube channel but didn't really do anything with it
<scott-work> whatever we do we should probably write at least the channel name down somewhere :P
<scott-work> zequence: i don't know who had ubuntustudio@gmail.com, maybe it is someone we know but i am not aware of the person currently
<scott-work> hi jamesjordin 
<jamesjordin> hi scott
<jamesjordin> just trying out IRC right now, gtting familiar
<smartboyhw> Hello to all
<smartboyhw> Hello jamesjordin 
<jamesjordin> hi
<scott-work> james email me about helping out with ubuntu studio
<scott-work> i had suggested coming onto IRC and hang around a bit, maybe help with documentation or testing
<zequence> jamesjordin: Welcome to the channel. Scott told us you might be coming
<smartboyhw> scott-work, yay!
<jamesjordin> good stuff, thanks for the welcome everyone!
<jamesjordin> recovering from surgery today though, so one handed typing while lying down and keep drifting off. eager to get going but not much use today
<smartboyhw> jamesjordin, oops
<jamesjordin> just trying to keep an eye on what you're all talking about for today and get a feel for what's going on. please don't think me rude if i don't reply stright away
<zequence> jamesjordin: I think you said you were interested in documentation, right?
<zequence> Anything else?
<zequence> As for docs, there are two kinds. User docs, and developer docs. In both, there are subsections. The user docs are not even begun, as is now. 
<zequence> User docs are split into workflows, but there's no real structure set for them at all
<zequence> So, we'd really need to start working on one of the areas: audio, or video, or graphics - to see what we want to write ourselves, what we link to, how we organize the whole thing
<jamesjordin> hi zequence, thanks - yes, happy to help with docs, probably user, and I have more experience with audio so maybe there
<zequence> jamesjordin: We work from blueprints, that are defined at launchpad. The blueprints are more like sketches of what we want to do. There are workitems. Some are very specific, some not. We assign ourselves to workitems. This way we can keep track of who's doing what.
<zequence> Also, we have teams for the different areas, so if you'd work on docs, you'd be in the doc team
<jamesjordin> ok. sounds good
<zequence> Actually, we have testing docs too. I almost forgot :)
<smartboyhw> zequence, my fault on the testing docs:P
<smartboyhw> The classroom sessions, as I should be waiting for
<smartboyhw> Just kept delaying
<smartboyhw> !!!!!!!?!?!?!
<jamesjordin> happy to help with testng too
<zequence> jamesjordin: On this page, you see the three blueprints for docs - dev, testing and user https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntustudio/+spec/topic-ubuntustudio-documentation
<zequence> jamesjordin: Look at the bottom for the bubbles
<jamesjordin> got it, will have a read now
<zequence> That's the dependency tree. You can go into one of the bubbles to see workitems for it. You can also go back in the tree, to its root, to see all of the blueprints
<smartboyhw> jamesjordin, warning though: Seeing the dependency tree for all blueprints may faint you
<jamesjordin> haha, ok thanks for the warnng!
<smartboyhw> Wow zequence you really got it fixed, it is better now (the dependency tree)
<zequence> jamesjordin: So, if you didn't already read this page, this is the user docs blueprint. It has some workitems. Those are not written in stone, but gives you and idea of what things need to be done https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntustudio/+spec/ubuntustudio-user-documentation
<jamesjordin> looks like I've got some reading to do! :)
<jamesjordin> thanks
<smartboyhw> zequence, how's your new IT work life doing?:P
<zequence> jamesjordin: If you're interested in developing user docs for audio, I'll be happy to help in any way I can. There are two links on the whiteboard for the user doc blueprint, which are sort of "staging/development" areas for docs. https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuStudio/UserGuide
<zequence> That's for the user guide
<zequence> There's a bit of structure at the upper level there, but again, nothing is written in stone
<zequence> And, one could just start from any corner of it. 
<jamesjordin> ok, yes see what you mean. might be best if I work through it bit by bit and try to follow all the steps as a new user would (which is essentially what I am)
<jamesjordin> just as a jumping off point, identify possible gaps etc
<zequence> jamesjordin: I did this for 12.04, but I'd redo it now https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuStudio/ProAudioIntro/1204
<zequence> Please use it, if you find anything useful about it. Or, just start from scratch. That often works best for me
<jamesjordin> wow! no, looks like good work, i would think it would make sense to just bring it up to date. no point reinventing the wheel! ;) up to 12,10 or raring?
<zequence> jamesjordin: Nothing has changed since then, AFAIK, so it would work, at least for setting up audio, I guess
<zequence> That's really just about audio devices, and audio serves. I guess one could just paste it in there.
<zequence> Haven't much thought about organizing the pages. One could include it into another page as well
<zequence> There are lots of options
<zequence> We still probably need some docs on how to start some programs, use them with jack, etc
<jamesjordin> i'll go through as a new user, then as a starting point and get familiar with what we already have
<jamesjordin> definitely! I've had trouble with understanding that
<zequence> Feel free to go your own way with things. I'm available most of the time when I'm awake, so feel free to ask me anything
<jamesjordin> thanks zequence! I'm going to be off work for a couple of weeks when I can get stuck in
<smartboyhw> Clap Clap Clap
<smartboyhw> We got ourselves a new contributor!!
<zequence> smartboyhw: Monday will be my first day at "school", where I'll be studying to become a network technician.
<smartboyhw> zequence, oh interesting
 * smartboyhw didn't realize it is 11:17 PM already:P
<smartboyhw> scott-work, zequence I think I'm going to apply for membership soon, could you write testimonials for me (I'm sure zequence will tell me off)
<smartboyhw> maybe holstein and astraljava too?:P
<zequence> smartboyhw: I can do that, np
<smartboyhw> zequence, go to https://wiki.ubuntu.com/smartboyhw please, and add one at the bottom. Thx!
<smartboyhw> My page needs a lot of updates
<zequence> jamesjordin: Happy to see a new name in here. Hope to see you around
<jamesjordin> zequence - glad to be here, will try to make myself useful soon, smartboyhw - thanks for making me feel welcome too
<astraljava> zequence: Yeah, it's indeed a melting pot of many different styles. When I'm feeling pitch black, that's one of the very few things that appeal to me.
<astraljava> At work, this is a highly reoccuring thing.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2013-01-26
<smartboyhw> Gee thx zequence for the testimonial:)
<smartboyhw> len-1304, consider writing me a testimonial?
<len-1304> WOW fancy new software updater.
<holstein> ok.. how do we set cpu freq?
<holstein> we, meaning, not me.. not with 'sudo cpufreq-set -r -g performance'
<len-1304> holstein, Not sure what you mean... the we not me thing.
<len-1304> It has to be done in root.
<len-1304> It has to be done per core
<holstein> like, how can a new user, not a programmer, coming to ubuntustudio do something that needs to be done
<holstein> simply
<holstein> with a GUI
<holstein> like we could in gnome2
<holstein> i think that is something a moderately advanced user might want
<len-1304> holstein, I think the first step is to set the default to user
<holstein> len-1304: you mean, default control?
<len-1304> There are a number of cpu freq modes. There in ondemand, conservative, performance etc.
<len-1304> There is also a user mode.
<len-1304> There is a thing called xfce4-cpufreq-plugin
<holstein> i install that
<holstein> but it cant change anything
<holstein> its a nice GUI too
<len-1304> All it can do right now with ondemand is monitor, but if set to userfreq I think it can.
<len-1304> Let me test.
<holstein> len-1304: i dont understand how to set to "userfreq".. i think that is the issue im having
<len-1304> holstein, Can't even try it on this computer :P
<len-1304> It runs full speed always
<len-1304> Be back in a minute.
<holstein> len-1304: no worries.. i can run th CLI command
<holstein> i just think its a regression that we might be able to address
<Len-nb> OK, this computer does the right stuff
<Len-nb> cpufreq-info shows that the governors are:
<Len-nb> conservative, ondemand, userspace, powersave, performance
<Len-nb> So cpufreq-set -c 0 -g USERSPACE sets things to user space
<holstein> OH.. lemme try that
<Len-nb> Well it doesn't let the gui change speed.
<holstein> yeah... thats what i think we need
<holstein> like in gnome2
<holstein> from like ubuntu 7.10 and on
<holstein> just recently regressed to a commandline only task
<Len-nb> OK even as a userspace I still need sudo to change speed.
<holstein> what does "userspace" do then?
<Len-nb> What I did.... :)  is I set up runlevel 2 as ondemend and runlevel 3 as performance
<Len-nb> I have a command that can from userspace change runlevel
<holstein> i used to just install an applet
<holstein> i remember giving it permission
<Len-nb> run level 3 is "audio clean"
<holstein> thats a great idea
<holstein> my studio machine hasnt been used much
<Len-nb> I have an icon that gives three modes, desktop, audio, video and graphics
<holstein> i had it uni-tasking
<holstein> i hooked it up to my new-ish TV and now im using it more
<holstein> daily even
<holstein> i'll be fine setting some shorcuts on the desktop to run the modes
<Len-nb> In audio mode, cron, anacrom, atd, mysql and my wifi are shut off
<Len-nb> Oh and the cpu is performance
<Len-nb> I can also have the same utility shut off PA-jack bridging
<Len-nb> But I have found with the rest of the things I did, I don't really need to.
<holstein> we shoud talk about working that into a GUI for the repos
<holstein> a studio specific thing
<holstein> things that we shouldnt do by default
<Len-nb> I wrote it using: alltray, tk/tcl, bash and the polkit.
<Len-nb> And upstart of course.
<Len-nb> I would like to change the gui to python before I try releasing it, as tk doesn't play well with systray stuff
<Len-nb> holstein, cadence, from falktx, looks like it will be able to do some of this. It is headed in that direction.
<Len-nb> Also the controls app zequence is working on.
<Len-nb> I am not sure a third app is a good thing :)
<Len-nb> Still I do have a command line that works now... it does need sudo file editing to configure it to the system though.
<Len-nb> holstein, The thing to remember with performance mode is that many computers are noisier because the CPU fans are on full all the time.
<Len-nb> Sometimes very good performance can be had with a lower than full speed cpu that is not changing speed.
<Len-nb> I found for example, I could get no xruns on this netbook running at half speed, but not with ondemand.
<holstein> mine is quiet though
<holstein> most of the time i have it on on demend
<holstein> demand*
<holstein> the studio rig
<holstein> i just like to bump it up to track
<Len-nb> holstein, I have a bad wireless IF. My desktop is much better. The netbook would hardly be called a "pro audio" platform.
<Len-nb> However, it does show up weakness in a system
#ubuntustudio-devel 2013-01-27
<zequence_> Can't believe it. Was about to finally do the SRU of jackd2, and now, testing it, the bug is still there?!!
<zequence> 1/1000 attempts probably
<zequence> A lot better, but still not perfect
#ubuntustudio-devel 2014-01-20
<xequence> cub, Takes a while to get into packaging. Would of course be good if you could have something useful to do for at least one package
<xequence> ..and in that way you slowly learn all the details around it.
<xequence> Since I'm still learning, I haven't been able to write good docs on how to get into Ubuntu Studio packaging easily
<xequence> A lot has to do with which tools you use, and how they work
<xequence> And there's quite a bit of difference between many of the packages
<cub> yeah, I would like to as there are some packages I'm more interested in for my own use
<cub> but time is always in the way
<cub> so I start reading up, have to break for something else in life. And next time I have to start from scratch again. :P
<cub> I'm zsync the nightly isos to test what we talked about yesterday on my way home
<cub> hmm but it said nothing was fetched. xequence can is there a new nightly build even though nothing has changed in the iso?
<xequence> cub, While doing that, you can investigate the source package for ubuntustudio-default-settings. And ask about anything that comes to mind
<xequence> Not sure
<xequence> Any build from a month back should be good to test on this particular item
<cub> sure
<cub> on both i386 and amd64?
<xequence> one of them is enough
<cub> how's work coming along?
<xequence> I don't know much about login sessions myself. So, if you want to get your hands dirty on this one, you could be our expert on that
<cub> I could always try. :D
<xequence> I'm preparing a new version of ubuntustudio-controls (have been for three years, it seems)
<cub> will you be handling the release parts now that Howard is away?
<xequence> Yes
<xequence> But, if you want, you could do that, of course
<cub> hehe not yet
<xequence> :)
#ubuntustudio-devel 2014-01-21
<cub> TheDrums, I was trying to test the trusty iso form the instruction you wrote a couple of days ago
<cub> but I'm not savvy enough to really understand what to do. :/
<TheDrums> OK, where are you?
<TheDrums> +stuck
<cub> well I got stuck already at "just echo the contents you see on bzr into it"
<cub> I booted an iso on USB to test the shoft and F6, but did not get any boot command line either
<TheDrums> Right, did you see the little icon at the bottom?
<cub> a small white line in the bottom left, yes. Any icon, no.
<cub> first I get the unetbootin menu though. Do I need to run this on an installed version?
<TheDrums> Oooooooh! unetbootin breaks how the menu works, OK.  Then there I think it's "Tab" to edit the boot line?
<cub> hehe, aha.
<TheDrums> http://smg.photobucket.com/user/griff_90/media/d9c03dfb.jpg.html is on CD, Vbox, and basically !unetbootin
<TheDrums> The point of this is to create that file before any user has the option to login, so it needs to be created before lightdm first starts up.
<cub> Ok, so after that I just write "text" ?
<cub> create which file? the /etc/lightdm/lightdm.conf.d/10-ubuntustudio.conf ?
<TheDrums> Yep.
<cub> So I will need to check what the file looks like in the bzr before I boot up, create the file and add everything in there. Then startx
<cub> ah no, then sudo service lightdm start
<TheDrums> Correct, for starting lightdm and the file.  Easy thing to do, download it to a place you can easily wget it from.
<cub> that would require network access though
<zequence> you can also use a usb stick, mount it, then cp the file over
<zequence> or from internal hard drive
<cub> ok
<cub> lunch break over, I will make another go later on again. :)'
<TheDrums> zequence: Right, normally testing in vbox so I think wget first (And, generally have network anyway)
<cub> so I could run it within a vbox without getting strange results?
<zequence> cub: Yes. It's more or less the same deal
<cub> TheDrums, no luck for me to get that text boot.
<cub> Right away it shows a menu to choose language, then the "Try Ubuntu Studio wihtout installing" menu and directly after that it show the Ubuntu Studio logo with a spinning circle and booting
<cub> no sign of the icons you showed in the screenshot, shift and F6 didn't do anything anywhere.
<cub> Not sure what I'm doing wrong
<zequence> We have the old menu
<zequence> Could be why
<zequence> We should probably think about changing it
<cub> I suppose it is. Not sure how to circumvent it to do the test. I'd like to learn though
<cub> I tried the different F6 Options but nothing that would give me a text boot .. so far.
<cub> I think I got it...
<cub> Alright, zequence, TheDrums, so how can I tell if my test was successful? :D After I put in the file and started lightdm I got the normal desktop. Perhaps that was the success?
<TheDrums> zequence: I like the old menu better. :)
<TheDrums> cub: Did you ever see the lightdm prompt?  Are you in the UbuntuStudio session?
<cub> After boot I only got a text prompt
<cub> where I created the file, the service lightdm start, which loaded up the "normal" desktop
<TheDrums> Then yep.
<cub> what would have happened if it had failed?
<TheDrums> You'd see the lightdm login screen, as it is now.
<cub> right, no I never got the graphic login screen
<cub> I assume that would have been the lightdm login screen?
<TheDrums> Mhmm.
<cub> cool, I learned something new today then. :)
<TheDrums> Beta freeze has already hit, though.
<TheDrums> s/Beta/Alpha2/
<kubotu> TheDrums meant: "Alpha2 freeze has already hit, though."
<cub> but ubuntu studio is not part of the alphas, do it wouldn't make any change?
<cub> what did this change fix? That users would get the lightdm login screen when booting into Live session?
<TheDrums> Yes, and not only that, but normally get a different language and the Xfce session.
<cub> aha
<TheDrums> Also rather than submitting to you the Xubuntu Additional Drivers desktop file, I commented on the bug report and had it re-opened so hopefully you'll get it anyway.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2014-01-23
<zequence> cub: morning
<cub> morning zequence , nice day in GBG?
<zequence> cub: Not really :)
<zequence> Icy and windy. Cold as hell
<cub> Swedish west coast winter.
<zequence> Yep
<cub> I don't miss it. :D
<cub> I suppose you saw that the test of the ubuntustudio-defaults went well
<cub> the hardest part was to figure out how to get the text boot. :P
<zequence> cub: How did you do it?
<zequence> Good that it works. I just need to edit the changelog, then it's good to go for upload
<zequence> Having some problems with this cycle SRU of the lowlatency kernels
<cub> I'm not sure what actually triggered it. I pressed F6 for options, then Esc, F4 for something else, Esc, suddenly I noticed a row of text in the middle of the screen
<zequence> EOL for raring coming up, so no more kernel updates
<zequence> hehe
<cub> where I could delete the "quiet-splash"
<cub> then Enter and it booted fine. :)
<cub> Raring, is that 12.10?
<cub> no 13.04
<cub> wow, that went quick
<zequence> 9 months :)
<zequence> Quantal is up in 3 months.
<zequence> The kernel team is going to discuss including -lowlatency into their master branch, making it an official Canonical kernel
<cub> cool
<zequence> ..next week
<cub> but you were also talking about maybe adding a RT kernel?
<zequence> We have a small patch in it that doesn't need to be there, but once we take it out, there's so little to maintain that they might just as well do it
<zequence> Yes, but I'm not getting much done right now
<zequence> My main goal is to get -controls updated
<cub> yeha
<cub> did you have time to work with Debian team?
<zequence> Not at all
<cub> that's too bad
<cub> but that's also life.
<zequence> A lot of IRL stuff, and now work
<zequence> Hard to catch those few hours every day
<cub> yup. Same here. 
<cub> I'm trying to get things done during my commute, but it's like 10-15 minute slots
<cub> The sad part for me is that since my laptop finally got to work properly with Ardour and my sound card, I haven't had any time to play or record.
<zequence> Same here - no time at all for music
<zequence> ubuntustudio-default-settings should be ok to upload now
<cub> On the other hand, it's kind of cool having a daughter. Soon she might be old enough for her own linux computer
<zequence> :)
<cub> so, I'd like to add speech-dispatcher to the live dvd, as I did with brltty for 13.10. I should then get the branch, add it and upload to my own lauchpad and request someone (you?) for a merge?
<cub> zequence, I haven't seen Nick for a long time again. Was there something in particular you wanted fixed/changed in the wordpress site?
<zequence> Yeah, he didn't stay for long. It's more than 6 months since he was active. Might have dropped in once or twice since
<cub> I figured we'll do some kind of overhaul of the web site once madeinkobaia has set the look'n'feel for 14.04?
<zequence> He has been quite busy too
<zequence> I'm glad if we can get a new WP for 14.04
<zequence> I'm not totally in sync with all of his ideas. 
<zequence> So, let's see :)
<cub> it probably comes down to time to do everything
<zequence> Time and wise prioritization
<zequence> I've notified MOTU of our bug fix, and request to upload the fix
<cub> nice
<zequence> micahg: I sent my application to the devel-permission list, but still lacking endorsements :)
<zequence> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/zequence/DeveloperApplication
<zequence> cub: -default-settings uploaded. But, our ISO isn't building right now, so no chance to try it out
<cub> isnÃ¤t that jsut the i386?
<zequence> Right you are
<cub> Is there a way to check why an iso is not building?
<zequence> Yes. build logs
<zequence> let me find them
<zequence> cub http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-archive/cd-build-logs/
<zequence> This, more specifically http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-archive/cd-build-logs/ubuntustudio/trusty/
<cub> well, that was a lot of text.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2014-01-24
<cub> good morning zequence, I saw that the amd64 iso didn't build yesterday. Might it have been the change that was uploaded that broke it?
<zequence> cub: No. The change in ubuntustudio-default-settings is just a configuration change. Doesn't involve any new dependency issues or anything like that
<zequence> And good morning to you too :)
<cub> aha
<cub> zequence, is there something we should/could do for the iso? I browsed through the log file for the i386 yesterday and it only confused me.
<zequence> cub: Most probably it's a change that might affect one or more flavors.
<zequence> It's nothing we have done, but of course, it's not a bad thing if we find the cause for it
<cub> Anyone with powers and knowledge how clean up the spamming going on in #ubuntustudio ?
<knome> cub, what spamming?
<cub> some connections from xtec.cat
<cub> stopped (temporarily?) now
<zequence>  holstein might have
<cub> yeah but I think he's away
<knome> cub, you can also ask #ubuntu-ops if the situation seems bad
<knome> if the permissions are set correctly, ircc/staffers can help with it
<cub> aha I didn't know about that
<holstein> zequence: i can.. i was out
<holstein> zequence: i think you should have ops too.. or someone else you choose
#ubuntustudio-devel 2014-01-25
<Hypnotoad> holstein: Only you and astraljava from the Ubuntustudio team (that I know of, joejaxx may have been Studio.)
<TheDrums> zequence: How do you mean you want to track Xubuntu closer?  I just branched both settings, and am spotting quite a few changes in xdg-$flavor/ (though yes, may be better to hold off until next release.)
<TheDrums> http://paste.openstack.org/show/61873/ FWIW.  Already spotted some that should be changed (s/greybird/Greybird/)
<zequence> TheDrums: We've been talking about adding support for multiple DEs, and I
<zequence> ..I've been looking at how to do that
<zequence> One way would be to depend on other DEs completely - just override a few things
<zequence> Other *-desktop packages, that is
<zequence> XFCE would be on the DVD. The rest installable with ubiquity if you have an internet connection
#ubuntustudio-devel 2016-01-25
<cub> I suppose we will cancel the vote of new PL as only one candidate is registered and last day was yesterday?
<sakrecoer_> i don't feel like i have a say :D i mean... that would make it a putch! lol
<zequence> sakrecoer_: Congrats. I will announce it later today.
<sakrecoer_> :D
<sakrecoer_> but.... will you stay for a cup of coffee zequence ? You ain't leaving /now/ right? ('^_^')
<sakrecoer_> whata a monday!
<zequence> sakrecoer_: I went to a job inteview
<sakrecoer_> zequence: yeah! congrats!
<sakrecoer_> erm.. well.. maybe 'congratulation' is wrong word..
<sakrecoer_> but i hope it went like you wanted!
<sakrecoer_> :) i'm off to see richard stallman live and direct on the microphone!
<sakrecoer_> celebrating with a coffee with my brother! read you later guys!
#ubuntustudio-devel 2016-01-27
<sakrecoer_> canonical is in charge for the website administration right?
<sakrecoer_> i wonder if they have a statusnet server.
<sakrecoer_> also. i'm looking in the logs, but i can't find it; was there some discussion about redesigning the site?
<sakrecoer_> more and moar i see the "tour" section of website being small mini sexy html5 deployments.
<sakrecoer_> it's so easy to do and if they are written with relative path, they are super easy to back up: no need to have the roght DB programe with the properly configured PHP cms...
<sakrecoer_> tour= feature tour
<sakrecoer_> http://ubuntustudio.org/tour/
<sakrecoer_> this is pretty superfunky: http://johnpolacek.github.io/superscrollorama/
<sakrecoer_> (its only fun when the page is scroling xD)
#ubuntustudio-devel 2016-01-28
<sakrecoer_> browsing the official ubuntuchannels, i found a lonely log bot in #ubuntustudio-es. i'm joining it.:) 
<sakrecoer_> maybe we can tell ubottu to direct spannish ubuntustudio questions to it?
<cub> sakrecoer_: about redesigning the web site, we have discussed it back and forth. Latest plans was to do a complete redesign for 16.04. Question is if we will able to do that until April? Either doing our own design or I have been discussing with knome (who made the templates for Ubuntu studio and Xubuntu previously) and he has a new cross distro design ongoing. I have'nt had time to explore it yet but the screenshort looked q
<sakrecoer_> cub: it would be nice of this knome could brief us up on the situation.
<sakrecoer_> :)
<sakrecoer_> the design.canonical.com guys seem to be trying out jekyll. http://ubuntudesign.github.io/jekyll-vanilla-theme/
<sakrecoer_> what is interesting with jekyll is that we can devlope the website together using bzr
<sakrecoer_> also, since it renders a static site, it generates little to no security concern (although i guess since we do not administer the wordpress on module level, that wouldn't make any big difference for us)
<sakrecoer_> jekyll has built in migration script http://import.jekyllrb.com/docs/wordpress/
<sakrecoer_> but i guess the webadmins would need to do that... i 
<sakrecoer_> m happy with the current
<sakrecoer_> site
<sakrecoer_> but i wouldn't mind if it got a facelift :)
<sakrecoer_> i guess i'm trying to say i would like to be updated on it's current situation :D
<sakrecoer_> and also i'm a jekyll fanboy :D
<sakrecoer_> zequence: i continue here since its on topic
<sakrecoer_> feature freeze, and what needs to be done :)
<sakrecoer_> i remember DalekSec recently mentioning that the latest mixxx version was being packaged in debian. Is this the kindof thing that we need look into before feature freeze?
<OvenWerks> sakrecoer_: yes. seq24, qmidiroute, and a few others from the same place have had their annual updates finished.
<OvenWerks> sakrecoer_: http://alsamodular.sourceforge.net/ has new stuff as well.
<OvenWerks> This means KAconnect, QAMix, QARecord, QMidiArp, QMidiControl, QMidiRoute are all updated. The main thing is moved to qt5 or able to be done in qt5 but will still work on qt4. qmidiroute is of interest to me personally as I put one of the bug fixes... because I use that part of the code :)
<OvenWerks> in other news sourceforge appears to have been bought by another company (again). This news via a leak with the suggestion to people to get their code off there to somewhere else (or at least back it up).
<sakrecoer_> OvenWerks: cool! that a hole bunch of updates
<sakrecoer_> i never managed to get in contact with the font team over at debian..
<sakrecoer_> they seem to keep devleopping for the old version, but i might missunderstand the versioning..
<sakrecoer_> didn't know about sourceforge...
<sakrecoer_> but i've read about a torrent based git protocole :D
<sakrecoer_> wb krytarik :)
<krytarik> Hi. :)
<krytarik> sakrecoer_: Reg. #ubuntustudio-es, while the founder of that is even an Ubuntu Member, it's an unofficial channel, and since it's not exactly populated much either, nor can be expected to be (judging from other flavors), it doesn't make much sense to send people there.
<zequence> sakrecoer_: We don't really need to concern ourselves with what happens in Debian, unless we want to. Not until after Debian Import Freeze. If we find something is not up to par among the packages, and there is a newer version of the package, we can request a sync (anyone can, with a launchpad account)
<zequence> I'll make sure to document this in our wiki later
<zequence> If Debian has not packaged the newer version, or if there is a bugfix but no new version, then you need to patch the Ubuntu package. One could do this in Debian first, and then just sync it to Ubuntu too.
<sakrecoer_> krytarik: ok :) got it :) i'll leave that poor logbot alone then... :)
<sakrecoer_> zequence: ok. what should we discuss then, or rather, what should we think about?
<sakrecoer_> before the feature freeze?
<zequence> sakrecoer_: Mostly which changes we want to have done in our packages and otherwise surrounding our ISO, before feature freeze
<zequence> It's not impossible to put in changes after feature freeze, especially for our own packages, but it's best to be done in time, so there's enough time for testing and bug fixing
<sakrecoer_> got this mail from launchpad /Nicholas Skaggs, has invited Ubuntu Studio Release to join Ubuntu Testcase Admins/
<sakrecoer_> you probably got it too zequence ?
<knome> sakrecoer_, hey, probably best i just join this channel ;)
<knome> basically, my suggestion for the website refresh at the moment is this:
<sakrecoer_> yes! :) wb knome :)
<knome> i have created a wordpress theme for ubuntu community teams
<knome> the theme is WIP and in public beta testing right now
<knome> and you can find it here: https://github.com/knomepasi/ubuntu-community-wordpress-theme
<knome> it allows you to change the colors and the logo too
<knome> so even without any changes, it could be a relatively good starting point for the website
<knome> i don't know what you have been thinking about light/dark themes
<knome> currently, the theme is only light, eg. no dark variant
<knome> however, if you feel like that's a blocker, i could totally look at bringing a dark base color scheme to the theme
<knome> it would still be the same style and layout though
<sakrecoer_> the current one is only dark in the background...
<knome> yep
<sakrecoer_> i don't mind it being light... i guess, we'd have to gather opinions and check against the time you can put on it :)
<knome> the dark variant is relatively simple to implement and i can promise that for 16.04, if you feel like that's a hard requirement for you
<knome> outside that, i would really like to know if the theme would be something you would be interested in using
<knome> and what kind of improvements you would like to see there
<knome> (if any)
<knome> for example, no specific support for a slideshow (like the one you have now) is built in
<knome> so if you wanted something like that, then we'd have to see how we would figure out that
<knome> and if it would be custom code built-in to the theme, or a specific wordpress plugin we specifically supported
<knome> and re: all that, if we decide to build in or support something, it would need to be something that is usable by others too
<sakrecoer_> knome: ok... how well does wordpress integrate with subfolders containing static files?
<knome> i don't think the core does at all
<knome> what are you thinking about?
<sakrecoer_> the feature tour...
<knome> you can easily create a child theme that creates a template you can use
<knome> also, for comparison, the xubuntu feature tour is created by "style formats" specified in wordpress: http://xubuntu.org/tour/
<sakrecoer_> hm.. that would be nice. i'm not sure the stiff framework of the current wordpress make up a very sexy feature tour.. but that is just my opinion..
<knome> the "problem" with static files is that if you are hosting your site with canonical, you will need the canonical IS to always do the deploy to production
<knome> so you want to avoid that as long as you can
<sakrecoer_> i see... indeed...
<sakrecoer_> but i like the xubuntu layout, if we put a little effort on having some sexy pictures, it will be just as fine :)
<sakrecoer_> i like the current ubuntustudio layout aswell...
<knome> yeah, so basically we can enable that kind of "strips" of color for the community theme relatively easily too
<sakrecoer_> thats is good idea, use the workflow colorscheme...
<knome> whether that's something i'd build for the parent theme (or a specific ubuntustudio child theme) is a different thing
<knome> if we decide that we need a child theme, the dark color scheme can be applied from there too
<knome> as well as potential specific handling of the header
<knome> (currently, logos are limited to 25px height)
<sakrecoer_> ok
<knome> what would be helpful though is if you could set up wordpress
<knome> then install that theme for the installation
<knome> and play around a bit with the content you want for the ubuntustudio theme
<knome> i believe that would give me the kind of feedback i'd like from the public beta before taking the leap and requesting canonical IS to push this theme to their wordpress farm
<sakrecoer_> setup wordpress... on a personal server?
<sakrecoer_> like a sandbox?
<knome> yeah
<sakrecoer_> hm... i don't have the possibility just now...
<sakrecoer_> i removed everything php and mysql from my server
<sakrecoer_> not to keen on doing those setups again...
<knome> what about running a server in virtualbox?
<knome> or maybe zequence could lend some server space :)
<sakrecoer_> ok, hopefully, zequence has a little spare space... i could play arround localy but that wouldn't be much feedback for you..
<knome> it would be fine too
<knome> i mean, i just want to know if you need something that isn't there
<knome> and if something isn't working, i'll have to try it myself anyway
<sakrecoer_> yeah? ah great! sure! you just want like... abeta tester? :)
<knome> yeah. :)
<knome> let me dig the announcement email
<knome> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-community-team/2016-January/000991.html
<knome> but basically what i just said above
<knome> and i'm asking this because i want the theme to be useful
<knome> not because i want others to do the work for me ;)
<knome> (i don't even intend to use the theme myself, so...)
<sakrecoer_> oh! great thanks! i wasn't subscribed to that list :)
<sakrecoer_> sure, i'll test it... its going to take me sometime logistaclly, i just moved my flat..
<knome> yeah, no problem
<knome> again, i'm not in a hurry with this :)
<knome> tbe, this sat on the HDD for a year and more before i picked it up again and brought it to where it is now, so...
<sakrecoer_> good, although time flies, the sooner we are ready, the better :D
<knome> sure
<sakrecoer_> i'll do my best to have a sandbox running by the 6th of february :) perhaps someone is faster, in that case please be welcome (can we have too much testing)
<knome> getting this ready to be pushed to the canonical wordpress farm sometime before the end of march would be good enough for 16.04 though
<knome> nope, we can't have too much of it
<sakrecoer_> ok, thats fairly comfortable timeframe :)
<knome> and as i said in the mail, feel free to file issues of clear bugs in github
<sakrecoer_> i will if find any :)
<knome> i'll leave my client on this channel, so you can poke me here as well
<knome> i'm sure there are several - at least if feature-request-like bugs count
<sakrecoer_> thank you knome :) 
<knome> for example, there is still no special handling of archive pages
<knome> i'll likely need to work on that
<sakrecoer_> i'll do my best to help you :)
<sakrecoer_> i'm pleased to read you, knome. i get a good feeling for this theme adventure :)
<knome> heh, good
<flocculant> zequence: you should have a mail from LP telling you that release team is invited to ubuntu testcase - you need to accept that for Ross to be able to admin your stuff
 * knome hides from flocculant 
<flocculant> too late
<flocculant> I spied that knome :p
<knome> :P
<knome> ok guys, take him down, he's spying on us
<flocculant> if you're going to do that - please do so now :D
<knome> lol
<sakrecoer_> haha!
<sakrecoer_> i recieved that too flocculant, if you say i should accept it i will...
<flocculant> sakrecoer_: yep - please do so
<sakrecoer_> aight!
<flocculant> it means that Ross can admin testcases (hopefully) which means in turn that I can leave your release team :)
<sakrecoer_> noooo! don't leave us flocculant \o\ :)
<flocculant> ha 
<sakrecoer_> what have i done :'( haha
<flocculant> I only needed to be in to see what was up with that
<sakrecoer_> :)
<sakrecoer_> i have to log out for now... thanks knome for stopping by and for working on that theme :)
<sakrecoer_> laterz y'all! o/~
<flocculant> cya
#ubuntustudio-devel 2016-01-29
<zequence> sakrecoer_: OvenWerks: (and anyone else who will be working on our package sources): I will be renaming some bzr branches to use the standard naming scheme used for Ubuntu code
<zequence> Development branches will all be called "trunk" from now on
<zequence> the shorthand (i.e. lp:ubuntustudio-default-settings) will still be the same on all packages
<sakrecoer_> ok :)
<zequence> sakrecoer_: If you already have a branch locally, uploading to the renamed branch will probably not work using ":parent".
<zequence> pushing, I mean
<zequence> not uploading :)
<zequence> sakrecoer_: btw, if you ever want to fool around with launchpad, just to see how it works, use this https://staging.launchpad.net/
<zequence> sakrecoer_: OvenWerks: I updated the part in the wiki dealing with maintaining our packages. Redid the part about the source, to make it more to the point. So far, nothing about making actual changes to the source, and uploading it, but that will come later: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/UbuntuStudioPackageMaintenance
<zequence> sakrecoer_: I put an awful amount of time doing these at one point, but I would do it in a different way today https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/TeamStructure
<zequence> So, feel free to simplify it, if you want. With such a small team, people tend to know what the other one is doing, without having to document it
<zequence> Also, the blueprints page doesn't abslutely need to include the actual blueprints. I did that more to get an overview in text in a way you can't get from the launchpad interface https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/Blueprints
<zequence> Think I'm going to take an easy route as far as development for this cycle goes. Want to a few improvements to -controls, such as a diagnostic tool, and some notification functions to let the user know when something is not right.
<zequence> And, when anyone wants to do anything jack based on a Ubuntu flavor, or derivative, they should be told to install -controls
<zequence> If they have problems, the diagnostic tool can create a report which they can show others so that it will be easier to identify the problem
<zequence> Also, we should at least make videos on basic jack usage
<zequence> So, that is what I will commit to this cycle. I'll do some work on -controls before FF, and then do a couple of videos before the release
<zequence> No desktop agnostic stuff, no changes to the installer at all. I don't just don't have the time, sorry to say.
<knome> zequence, if you are planning to be involved at all with the website refresher, see backlog on this channel :)
<zequence> knome: Ok, thanks.
<zequence> knome: Great news about the theme. Yeah, I need to see it first, but I for one wouldn't require anything fancy. We do have some people who can do graphics, so in that way we could see about modding it ourselves
<knome> please don't mod the main theme - do it under a child theme :)
<knome> i can even help with that
<zequence> Yes, of course.
<knome> and if the things you need are sensible, i'm happy to merge them to the main theme too
<zequence> Ok, thanks. We should start by installing it somewhere, and start testing it.
<zequence> sakrecoer_: ^
<knome> yeah, that would be a good idea, and helpful for me too
<zequence> I have a staging site for the old theme already, so I will set that up
<knome> great!
<zequence> flocculant: Set already accepted that I think. He's a core member now with immense powers.
<flocculant> yep - all sorted now
<zequence> Oh, I did the mistake of scrolling, and forgot I had scolled
<knome> ahah :)
<zequence> So, your comment was at the bottom :D
<zequence> scrolled*
<flocculant> ha ha 
<sakrecoer_> zequence: knome: thanks guys! let me know where i can sneakpeak :p
<sakrecoer_> my power alone are useless, the real power is the teamwork!
<sakrecoer_> read you later guys! happy friday!
<zequence> sakrecoer_: If I haven't done it by tomorrow, you may remind me. I'll set up a staging site at my webbhotell, and can give anyone ftp access so they can do stuff if they want
<sakrecoer_> awsome!
<knome> the latter is true, but the former isn't; single persons can achieve things too (and even more so kickstart good thing)
<sakrecoer_> i'll check in to morrow no doubt!
<sakrecoer_> knome: :) true, but in this case, since i'm a complete launchpad noob, those powers alone are.. well not so handy :D
<cfhowlett> sakrecoer_, hey
<sakrecoer_> cfhowlett: hi!
<sakrecoer_> i'm on the run, email? :)
<sakrecoer_> or just shoot and i read it later :)
<sakrecoer_> bye y'all!
<zequence> sakrecoer_: I'll put the cops on the wrong trail for ya. Have fun!
<flocculant> sakrecoer_ zequence - seems Ross is all sorted now \o/ left the release team
<zequence> flocculant: Alright. Thanks :)
<flocculant> welcome - glad you've finally got there \o/
<flocculant> I'll not wander off - so if anyone needs anything I'm happy to help 
<zequence> OvenWerks: You ever notice ardour using a bit more RAM than it aught to?
<cub> About the web, wordpress theme, I like the simplicity. Child theme and colours should be easy to work with. As long as there is a design decided in colours, look n feel, so to speak.
<cub> Zak emailed the other day, but unsure if and how much he will be able to produce before the 16.04 release
<cub> I don't have a test site set up yet, but it seems you are already on it
<OvenWerks> zequence: it depends on what you are displaying I think (plugins are another different thing drumgizmo or linuxsampler are huge) Let me try a fresh session
<OvenWerks> fresh session with two audio tracks. Gnome system monitor says 148Mbytes
<OvenWerks> xfce-taskmanager says 287.
<OvenWerks> zequence: ardour version 4.6.161.
<OvenWerks> Ardour 4.6.0 with same session - session manager 85Mbyte, Task manager 200Mbyte.
<OvenWerks> of note 4.6.0 is the release (optimized version) while 4.6.161 is the debug version.
<OvenWerks> zequence: mixbus3 (release) is 90.6/205Mbytes
<OvenWerks> zequence: my firefox (three pages of tabs) is sitting aroudn 360-400Mbytes for comparison
<OvenWerks> zequence: wow, ardour 3.5.403 uses 323/440 Mbytes for the same session (our package for 14.04). But one of the big changes from 3.* 4.* was a lot of memeory cleanup as I recall.
 * OvenWerks obviouly hasn't run ardour3 for some time, it looks quite different.
<OvenWerks> 18 tracks (not much content) with eqs, 3 synths,and a few busses with reverbs and the 148MB goes up to 623MB. 
<OvenWerks> if that is more than it ought to or not, I can't really say.
<OvenWerks> drumgizmo or linux sampler can use over a GB just on their own.
<OvenWerks> I suspect the the big memory drinkers in that 623MB above are the two instances of fluid synth in there. Qsynth running standalone is 204MB
<OvenWerks> zequence: I think we found before that task manager includes memory that is shared between jackd(bus) and all of it's clients but system monitor doesn't.
<sakrecoer_> flocculant \o/ and yes, please stay for coffee. as in "do not wander off" <3 :)
<flocculant> ha ha 
<flocculant> my work is done :D
<flocculant> now I can just wait for MP's for me to comment on :)
<sakrecoer_> that is awesome! now you will have the time to explain to me what you did :)
<flocculant> I shook the tree till the broken bits fell out - then watered it a bit, all was well 
<sakrecoer_> haha
<sakrecoer_> gah... MP... Merge... merge... ...push? 
<sakrecoer_> xq
<flocculant> merge proposal 
<flocculant> or mr - request *shrug* 
<sakrecoer_> YES!
<flocculant> mp I think :)
 * sakrecoer_ shake the hand of Mr. Merge Proposal
<flocculant> :)
<flocculant> I only do testcases ... easy 
<sakrecoer_> :) i will do qsynth sunday
<flocculant> I will not deal with it on Sunday - got a testing irc session to run for xubuntu 
<flocculant> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/xubuntu-devel/2016-January/011006.html
<flocculant> just in case you want to pop by and see what we're up to - given you now have package tracker stuff
<zequence> OvenWerks: When I've ran a session with ardour for a few hours, I find that it has gradually leaked memory. I only use processing plugins. No samples or instruments
<zequence> Same session, same plugins, about 4GB difference in RAM usage over time
<zequence> Something it not right
#ubuntustudio-devel 2016-01-30
<OvenWerks> zequence: which version does the about box say?
<zequence> OvenWerks: I forget the version. It's on 15.10, which I haven't updated for a while, but I doubt there's been new uploads for ardour on that release
<zequence> Ah, let me check with rmadison
<zequence> 4.1~dfsg-1build2
<zequence> I'll be upgrading to xenial soon
<zequence> 4.6 already
<OvenWerks> zequence: I do seem to remember a memory leak that was fixed within the past 3 or 4 months.
<zequence> OvenWerks: Ok, cool. There are a few other bugs, which don't cause me too much problems, like when adding tracks, they don't always end up where they are supposed and I have to move them down usually
<zequence> I've started to do some sidechaining, and though it works, I have a feeling there is something goofy going on with connections, but again, earlier ardour version
<zequence> Should upgrade and have a look
<zequence> I've set up the stagin site at http://ubuntustudio.zequence.net.
<cfhowlett> ???
<zequence> cfhowlett: It's for the theme that knome has been working on
<zequence> We'll look at if we can use it for Ubuntu Studio
<cfhowlett> OK.  but! !!  
<zequence> I'm going to switch to it just in a moment
<cfhowlett> Officially, is it Ubuntu Studio or Ubuntustudio?  
<zequence> cfhowlett: Nothing decided yet. We just want to check it out
<zequence> It's Ubuntu Studio. But, the terminal version would be ubuntustudio
<cfhowlett> color me confused ...
<cfhowlett> cause the wordmarks contradict that
<zequence> How is that?
<cfhowlett> ubuntustudio
<zequence> There have been several variants of the wordmark over the years, and that's jsut playing with graphics
<cfhowlett> zequence, agreed, but I thought the whole purpose of the recent redesign was to establish a definitive brand
<zequence> Well, it's our latest definitive brand. And it looks good IMO
<cfhowlett> agreed.  so then ... Ubuntu Studio ?? not to nitpick but am I missing something here?
<zequence> The word Studio is clearly apart from Ubuntu in the graphics where Studio is fatter
<zequence> So, I don't read it as ubuntustudio
<zequence> I read it as ubuntu STUDIO
<cfhowlett> ... ok
<zequence> Similar to Ubuntu Gnome https://ubuntugnome.org/
<zequence> Zak reduced the distance between the letters to make it look better
<zequence> I switched themes, and adapted the theme to use our official blue instead of the Ubuntu orange
<zequence> Now, what would be cool is to make it dark
<zequence> knome: Nice work on the theme!
<cub> I made some updates to the test site http://ubuntustudio.zequence.net/ Next step should be to set up a child theme and try out some colouring
<knome> zequence, for all of you dark theme loving folks (including cub who quit very fast), i have pushed a new revision of the theme to github with a dark theme variant - this can be enabled from the customizer
<OvenWerks> knome: I think cub reads the back scroll from the archives anyway.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2016-01-31
<zequence> knome: Thanks!
<zequence> I'll check with the theming tomorrow. Any changes we have made should be committed to a separate branch for now (the theme is a git repo)
<knome> zequence, afaics, all the changes you have done so far are either doable from the main theme, or are related to content :)
<sakrecoer_> zequence knome cub: together we can make them think.
<sakrecoer_> everyone included
<sakrecoer_> thinking is a good gym.
<sakrecoer_> i have no idea what i was trying to say. but i'm fairly convinced i was trying to be friendly: i had too much fun. i'll do my best to stay away while partybrain is in charge...
<knome> i have no idea what you were trying to say either :P
<knome> anyway, please check the new dark variant, and feel free to propose improvements to it
<knome> i have no problem carrying that with the main theme, as long as you don't want some blue hues (since we can't make sure that'd work with all color combinations)
<zequence> I pulled changes to the theme and changed to the dark variant
<zequence> knome: Just tried the theme in a phone, and I would make the minimum width small enough for those small phone screens
<knome> zequence, there's a github issue for that
<zequence> knome: Ah, ok.
<knome> but it's not trivial at that point because then you *will* need a hamburger menu
<zequence> Not familiar with that term, but I assume it is one that changes when the width gets smaller
<zequence> javascript, I assume
<zequence> knome: Also, notes on the dark variant. I feel like there should not be two dark tones, but one, making the borders for the content part invisible. Also, the text is a bit too dark, or the background is a bit too light. Not enough contrast for me
<zequence> We used to have official dark colors, but I'm not so sure we should stick to those
<zequence> The blue needs a nice hue of darkness to make it sit right, so one dark hue should be enough. As for the text, I'm mostly concerned with how pleasing it is to read
<knome> yeah, one that collapses to a single button, with javascript (and css)
<zequence> We should really get Zak on board with this since he is supposed to be our art lead. I'll check with him. Else, I will take the lead on this. 
<zequence> Seems like a nice opportunity now to redesign our website and get a nice look for 16.04
<knome> yep
<knome> re: two dark tones, we should probably fine tune that, but even in the light version the notifications have a slightly different tone
<knome> all the dark bg related stuff is in style-dark.css if you want to have a stab at it (and do a pull request)
<zequence> knome: Yep. I just sent an email to Zak. Once I established who will do what, I will announce plans on redesigning the theme, and take it from there
<zequence> For this particular distro, it makes sense to have our own look, considering digital arts is our main focus. But, also, nice to have something that links us with the rest of Ubuntu
<zequence> The font makes a huge difference
<knome> are you ok with having the dark variant available for others then?
<knome> and you can obviously do a lot of visual stuff that separates you from the rest even within the same theme framework
<zequence> As long as the dark variant doesn't include our blue as default it should be fine
<knome> of course not
<knome> the orange is always the default
<knome> enabling the dark variant simply changes the background
<zequence> And, seeming as we will probably be tweaking a few details slightly which might not seem logical for the default dark variant, we should stand out
<zequence> Ok, gotta go. Cheerio.
<knome> hf & ttyl
<krytarik> zequence, knome: Did you notice the improper indentation of the wrapped text in the footer boxes here yet?: http://www.ubuntustudio.zequence.net/
<knome> the indentation is intended :P
<sakrecoer_> probably looks better with more entries :)
<sakrecoer_> hi y'all!
<sakrecoer_> seems the flickr link is broken again...
<sakrecoer_> to the wallpaper contest..
<sakrecoer_> i like the darktheme
<sakrecoer_> i think i agree with zequence about the borders
<sakrecoer_> we should have a good way to attach photos to posts...
<sakrecoer_> the framed blogroll is great for news, but it is a bit boring in the feature showcase context...
<krytarik> knome: Try in a smaller window. :P
<knome> define smaller?
<knome> bbl
<krytarik> knome: Like 1280 x 960 px.
<sakrecoer_> the headlogo is not homelink?
<sakrecoer_> knome: the comments colos are funky: http://www.ubuntustudio.zequence.net/uncategorized/masterpost-of-posts-with-a-title-so-long-it-will-rule-the-title-lines-fro-generations-of-masterpost-titles-to-come-and-beyond/#comment-2
<sakrecoer_> knome: the post titles do not print on homepage.
<zequence> there's almost nothing done except the community theme is chosen, so there will be lots to do. If someone wants to start in a specific area content-wise, be my guest. Such as the feature tour, or documentation, etc
<zequence> While we change themes, we might as well reorganize and rewrite
<knome> sakrecoer_, read the README
<knome> krytarik, can you elaborate then?
<krytarik> knome: "improper indentation of the wrapped text".
<knome> yes, i read that
<knome> i don't see anything special though
<sakrecoer_> i added a few dummy-posts and i think the indentation is nice
<sakrecoer_> knome: the readme on zequence ftp?
<knome> zequence, i just pushed a new revision that improves the dark variant
<knome> sakrecoer_, https://github.com/knomepasi/ubuntu-community-wordpress-theme/blob/master/README.md
<knome> actually, there was a bug that is now fixed in the latest revision. sorry for that
<knome> zequence, ^
#ubuntustudio-devel 2017-01-24
<FMan> hey
<FMan> how are things going?
#ubuntustudio-devel 2019-01-21
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: can we try one more?
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: Let's do this. (I was only fixing some stuff on the website and telling people not to ask for direct support requests on the FB page)
<Eickmeyer> Done now.
<OvenWerks> I have added all the logger lines back in.
<Eickmeyer> ok
<Eickmeyer> I'll give it another go.
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: us_log.txt: https://paste.ubuntu.com/p/7bx2y9Bwqh/
<Eickmeyer> syslog: https://paste.ubuntu.com/p/NZ66KK4mdr/
<Eickmeyer> Can confirm, on ondemand governor.
<OvenWerks> Ok, I will remove all the echos to /us_log.txt and we can try again.
<Eickmeyer> ok
<OvenWerks> Ok. for this test remove /us_log.txt (to make sure we don't remake it)
<OvenWerks> file is ready
<Eickmeyer> k
<Eickmeyer> I've been deleting us_log with every reboot.
<OvenWerks> Ok
<Eickmeyer> Rebooting...
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: https://paste.ubuntu.com/p/MM8Cgf6BD7/
<Eickmeyer> Can confirm, on OnDemand.
<Eickmeyer> I'm going to switch to Performance and see if that persists.
<OvenWerks> Ok, I guess I should drop this copy into git...
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: Confirmed: Performance persisted.
<Eickmeyer> I'll try again in OnDemand and see if it still persists.
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: OnDemand persisted. Bug is fixed.
<OvenWerks> autobuilds build queued
<Eickmeyer> Cool.
<Eickmeyer> gotta sign out, upgrading my server.
<OvenWerks> o/
<Eickmeyer> Back
<Eickmeyer> Digital Ocean droplets are FAST!
<OvenWerks> The pending builds seem to be getting farther away rather than closer
<Eickmeyer> Happens, especially if Launchpad is busy.
<OvenWerks> now they are done
<Eickmeyer> Yeah, I'm watching it in the PPA, looks like it's still pending.
<OvenWerks> been built but not released
<Eickmeyer> brb again
<Eickmeyer> Yeah, still shows as pending. :/
<OvenWerks> it says 5 min to go
<Eickmeyer> LP will be LP
<OvenWerks> build finished 13 min ago
<Eickmeyer> Almost there....
<Eickmeyer> All built, not published.
 * Eickmeyer really wants to mark the bug as "fix committed" and subscribe the sponsor queue.
 * OvenWerks installs
<krytarik> Could it be that dropping the use of "log_action_{cont,end}_msg" along with the other changes there is what made it actually work now though - i.e. otherwise it'd just bail there because of the "set -eu"?
<OvenWerks> krytarik: no. I put debug statements in and it choked on the first logger statement
<OvenWerks> krytarik: what is odd is that it worked on my machine.
<OvenWerks> krytarik: I took all looger and the log_act stuff out and it worked we put only one logger back in and it quit
<OvenWerks> it seems to be that it did not like logger "$DESC: stuff" but was ok with logger "${DESC}: stuff"
<OvenWerks> I don't understand why my system worked with it
<OvenWerks> unless it is the mess of development tools I have installed
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: have tested the new package
 * OvenWerks can't spell/type
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: have you tested the new package?
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: Sorry, was eating dinner.
<OvenWerks>  no sorry needed
<Eickmeyer> ppa.launchpad.net is being glacier slow right now.
 * OvenWerks wanders off to make supper for his son
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: Fix worked. Changed bug status to Fix Committed and subscribed sponsor queue.
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: thank you for your help
<OvenWerks> the moon is going away...
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: Indeed, but around here (in the central washington Cascades) we have clouds to explain that.
<OvenWerks> clear sky here
<OvenWerks> (vancouver Island)
<Eickmeyer> When we left my parents the sky was clear, but as we slowly headed eastward into the mountains, it clouded up. Looks clear to the west, though.
<OvenWerks> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VYqxk19H0XA
<OvenWerks> Thats what we see... not as light.
<Eickmeyer> Cool
#ubuntustudio-devel 2019-01-25
 * Eickmeyer just got the Ubuntu Studio subreddit back under our control. https://www.reddit.com/r/ubuntustudio
<OvenWerks> Good... I think. what is subredit?
<Eickmeyer> Every forum in reddit is called a subreddit.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2019-01-26
<Eickmeyer> https://www.forbes.com/sites/jasonevangelho/2019/01/24/ubuntu-studio-19-04-has-new-tricks-up-its-sleeve-for-linux-creatives/
<krytarik> Eickmeyer: "Description: Under-the-hood tweaks for" :>
<Eickmeyer> krytarik: Well, if I went into detail it wouldn't work for the summary line. :P
<Eickmeyer> Unless I omitted something, in which case I need to fix that S.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2019-01-27
<Eickmeyer> Oh, omission. Fixing.
<Eickmeyer> krytarik: Good catch!
<OvenWerks> The following packages will be upgraded:
<OvenWerks> sorry wrong line...
<OvenWerks> The following packages were automatically installed and are no longer required:
<OvenWerks> cpufrequtils libcpufreq0
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: ^^
<OvenWerks> however, it did not remove /etc/default/cpufrequtils
<OvenWerks> I don't know if we should look for a way (via install script) to remove this
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: Probably needs to be an install script. Basically "if exists (/etc/default/cpufrequtils) rm /etc/default/cpufrequtils" (forgive me, my syntax is sewage).
<OvenWerks> The only problem with that is if the user has installed cpufrequtils for their own purposes
<Eickmeyer> Yeah, was about to say.
<OvenWerks> Without the cpufrequtils package the file doews nothing and would not hurt anything
<Eickmeyer> Do we even bother? Perhaps just stick that in the release notes as something that *may* need to be deleted if persistence problems occur?
<Eickmeyer> Honestly, you're right. If cpufrequtils isn't installed, it shouldn't matter.
<Eickmeyer> Can't imagine anything else calling that file.
<OvenWerks> Anythingn that does is "broken"  ;)
<Eickmeyer> Hehe, indeed.
<OvenWerks> Quite honestly, for todays kernels cpufrequtils is broken
<OvenWerks> even for 14.04 and before they were broken
<OvenWerks> At least the part that sets governors at boot time.
<OvenWerks> (which is the part of that package the file is used by)
<Eickmeyer> True, besides, it can be done with different tools now. I can't get it to work from the command line without using something else.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2020-01-20
<Eickmeyer[m]> teward: Awesome, that worked. Now, I got it to build, but dput is being stupid and not uploading the source tarball. 
<Eickmeyer[m]> Looks like the .changes file isn't including the tarball for some reason.
<studiobot> <teward001> `debuild -S -sa`
<studiobot> <teward001> you need to tell it to include the tarball
<studiobot> <teward001> it won't include typically when there's an ubuntu changes version line
<studiobot> <teward001> which is why i usually `debuild -S -sa` most things
<studiobot> <teward001> Eickmeyer: ^
<Eickmeyer[m]> teward: Yeah, figured that out myself. I'm still stuggling with the Python issue (FTBFA at the moment).
 * OvenWerks notes that an audio flavour without Ardour is kind of like a linux distro with no kernel.
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer[m]: most of the stuff I can find about systemd for running session stuff is 2014 ish
<Eickmeyer[m]> OvenWerks: Yeah. It's entirely possible that it hasn't changed, or at least the concepts.
<Eickmeyer[m]> Unrelated, I can't get Ardour to build. WAF is hating Python3.
<Eickmeyer[m]> teward: I'm in over my head with Ardour. I've asked the Ardour team for help, but I doubt I'll get any as they would rather have people pay for and download the binaries from their website.
<Eickmeyer[m]> I see the clock ticking and I don't like what I see.
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer[m]: actually I hope systemd has progressed since 2014 when they were saying "we haven't decided how we will.... but are leaning in this direction"
<Eickmeyer[m]> OvenWerks: Well, it's a Lennart project, so there's no telling.
<OvenWerks>  :P
<OvenWerks> very "linuxy"
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer[m]: I am giving up on systemd for a bit and will remove FW backend from the controls GUI. Then paste the file and maybe you can push it.
<Eickmeyer[m]> OvenWerks: Ok, sounds good.
<OvenWerks> wierd, just installed glade... and it's deps
<OvenWerks> it then shows all those packages as "no longer needed" Use autremove to clean them up... ok, then no glade reinstall now ok.
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer[m]: www.ovenwerks.net/paste/ubuntustudio-controls.glade should go in the controls package: usr/share/ubuntustudio-controls/ directory to replace the one there.
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer[m]: any suitable changelog line will do: firewire backend does not work, use alsa
<OvenWerks> or some such.
<Eickmeyer[m]> Ok, I'll make it work.
<OvenWerks> Works the same as now but firewire no longer shows up in the GUI as a back end
<Eickmeyer[m]> OvenWerks: My son is pulling me away for a bit, but I'll get on that. Robin has pointed me in the direction of a potential fix for the Ardour WAF issue.
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer[m]: ya I think they do know that Ardour does have to keep up...
<Eickmeyer[m]> Yeah, they do.
<OvenWerks> I expect GTK, the parts of it still used, will get replaced with "atk" (AKA ardour widgets)
<OvenWerks> but it would be nice to get V6 out soon. Paul is also taking about moving on from c++99 to at least c++11
<OvenWerks> *talking
<OvenWerks> This would mean dropping support for winxp and mac before intel
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> eickmeyer ovenworks if the issue with nvidia you ran into is recent there definitely was a hiccup going on but I  think it was wider than just the low latency kernel. I had 2 laptops (one with kubuntu other with ubuntustudio have severe issues over last week both woth nvidia)
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> both with*
<Eickmeyer[m]> @azbulutlu: Good to know that it wasn't just me then.
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> I'll point out that this was the first time I had issues using nvidia and low latency kernel in 5+ years however. (nvidia drivers can cause issues but that isn't specific to low latency kernel
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> the recent thing might not have been just ubuntu. one sec
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> https://mastodon.art/@eylul/103504535408061290
<OvenWerks> @azbulutlu: as an aside... the first tablet setup in controls will be limited... just one device, one set of buttons, one area, one pressure curve.
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> I would have reported this but I had to do 3 fresh installs on 2 computers within a 72 hour period
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> I think it is ok but it might be worth labeling it experimental then
<OvenWerks> @azbulutlu: I think this needs to be done just to make sure it works and can be tested before release.
<Eickmeyer[m]> OvenWerks: Do you just need me to yeet this glade file into the existing ubuntustudio-controls and push it?
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer[m]: yes and a a changelog line to suit.
<Eickmeyer[m]> Ok
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> ovenwerks I misunderstood you. I think that is a good idea btw
<OvenWerks> @azbulutlu: It allows for the best testing I can do on site too.
<Eickmeyer[m]> OvenWerks: I can push this, but the next question is if we should upload this to focal, unless you don't think it's ready.
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer[m]: just to master is fine.
<Eickmeyer[m]> Ok, I'll do that.
<OvenWerks> That is I hope you are starting from master to begin with
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer[m]: ^^^
<Eickmeyer[m]> Yes, definitely.
<Eickmeyer[m]> OvenWerks: Done.
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer[m]: I think with systemd I need two unit files. One to start autojack and another to SIGINT or dbus quit it.
<Eickmeyer[m]> OvenWerks: I'm only familiar with service files, so I don't know how that would work.
<OvenWerks> it seems when something is started as a user, it is not connected to the session and so continues to run after the session
<OvenWerks> it might be a service file at that.
<Eickmeyer[m]> Service files are usually loaded at boot.
<Eickmeyer[m]> Just before DM.
<OvenWerks> but there is an exit.target
<OvenWerks> how can that happen for user files?
<OvenWerks> which user would they start for untill loging happens
<OvenWerks> I think I shall have to do a BUNCH OF BOOTS
<Eickmeyer[m]> Oof.
<OvenWerks> (caps lock)
<Eickmeyer[m]> Still, oof.
<OvenWerks> and see what is running before loggin into a session
<Eickmeyer[m]> OvenWerks, teward : I just called-out doko for basically screwing us over with the omission of Ardour from the Python2 removal list. His response was less than helpful.
<Eickmeyer[m]> He has agreed to help restore Ardour.
<Eickmeyer[m]> I've exhausted my brain power for the day porting the wscripts to Python 3.
<Eickmeyer[m]> I'm mostly frustrated with the AAs for sitting on packages to review for over a month, and any time I request a review I'm met with silence. It's infurating.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2020-01-21
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer[m]: Ardour, so far as I know, does not add the wiimote code to it's packages.
<Eickmeyer[m]> OvenWerks: There's definitely something in /libs/surfaces
<OvenWerks> yes it's there, but it seems to me the ardour build skipps it somehow.
<Eickmeyer[m]> The problem I'm having at this point is it's not finding libxml for whatever reason.
<Eickmeyer[m]> https://launchpadlibrarian.net/461447389/buildlog_ubuntu-focal-amd64.ardour_1%3A5.12.0-3ubuntu10_BUILDING.txt.gz
<Eickmeyer[m]> Specifically, here's the error: https://paste.ubuntu.com/p/7nhP87PnX8/
<OvenWerks> from the ardour.org build log: " * Wiimote support                                   : False"
<Eickmeyer[m]> Robin didn't seem to mention that.
<Eickmeyer[m]> So then the question is, what do I set in the rules file to skip wiimote support?
<OvenWerks> remove libcwiid-dev from the deps, I think.
<OvenWerks> ie make sure it is not installed at build time.
<OvenWerks> if you look at the ardour.org buuild log farther up there is: Checking for header cwiid.h                          : not found 
<OvenWerks> so if it is not foudn it is not built.
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer[m]:  BTW the build log I am looking at is: https://nightly.ardour.org/i/A_Linux_x86_64-gcc5abi/build_log.txt
<OvenWerks> Notice at the top it shows the command line: # ./waf configure --strict --prefix=/usr --configdir=/etc --libjack=weak --ptformat --with-backends=jack,alsa,pulseaudio,dummy --optimize --cxx11
<Eickmeyer[m]> Well, I'm going to try something: I think the FTB is related to a lack of libxml++, so I'll add that to the build deps and see what happens.
<Eickmeyer[m]> It's building, we'll see if it errors-out.
<OvenWerks> 15 minutes to go ?
<Eickmeyer[m]> OvenWerks: Yep, it failed. You're right. I'm dropping libwiic-dev from the build-deps.
<Eickmeyer[m]> Attempt number 12 now.
<Eickmeyer[m]> (this is in my personal PPA so as not to email everyone and their dog when it fails)
<OvenWerks> hmm, my dog might be interested.... I am sure she would give her best yawn.
<Eickmeyer[m]> My dog would sleep right through it, notification and all. Unless it's someone closing a door outside, then it's cause for alarm.
<OvenWerks> sound of food?
<Eickmeyer[m]> Ok, definitely food.
<Eickmeyer[m]> OvenWerks: Still building, but s390x build was successful. \o/
<Eickmeyer[m]> ppc64el is successful.
<OvenWerks> rg should be in bed by now... 
<Eickmeyer[m]> He's not. :')
<OvenWerks> not unusual
<OvenWerks> hes like 9 hours ahead of us I think.
<Eickmeyer[m]> Man's a beast.
<OvenWerks> Paul is the same tz.
<Eickmeyer[m]> I think Filipe is an hour ahead of them.
<studiobot> <Eickmeyer> @azbulutlu RT just swapped-out our site theme, but it's missing quite a few elements. Any ideas?
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> let me see
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> I think some of them needs to be done through customization of the theme
<studiobot> <Eickmeyer> Yeah, I think I need to get Shinta involved.
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> things we asked to be flexible. e.g. download link. features blurbs
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> do you want me to copy them from stage$
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> stage*
<studiobot> <Eickmeyer> Sure, that would be great.
<studiobot> <Eickmeyer> I'll see what you can do before I get Shinta involved.
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> give me a moment and give me a moment to install telegram on desktop so that we can be on phone
<studiobot> <Eickmeyer> Sounds good.
<studiobot> <Eickmeyer> I have to take my son to the school bus, back later.
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> ok
<studiobot> <Eickmeyer> @azbulutlu I'm back.
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> welcome back
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> and yes some of the art assets that were in the media library didn't carry over
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> and some of the settings. this is totally expected no need for panic
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> I did run into a bit of an issue with some of the image assets through so currently working on that
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> should I see if I can put the site on the maintenance mode?
<studiobot> <Eickmeyer> Ok, perfect. RT asked if I wanted to revert, I'm going to let them know that at this point what happened was expected.
<studiobot> <Eickmeyer> If you can from wp-admin, that would work for the time being.
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> yeah all of it are things that we wanted to be customizable so the art assets etc were in media library
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> or in case of blurbs its there for us to add back in
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> let me see if I can
<studiobot> <Eickmeyer> Ok.
<studiobot> <Eickmeyer> If not, it's no big deal.
<studiobot> <Eickmeyer> It's not like I've announced it yet. :P
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> ok looks like it is a plugin
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> this won't take THAT long and it is not THAT broken
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> xD
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> heh
<studiobot> <Eickmeyer> Ok, so we're missing a plugin?
<studiobot> <Eickmeyer> Ohhhh..."maintenance mode" is a plugin.
<studiobot> <Eickmeyer> Nm.
<studiobot> <Eickmeyer> I'm slow.
<studiobot> <Eickmeyer> @azbulutlu I was able to add the missing text. (that was easy).
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> umm I am doing editing
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> please do not also edit
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> :D
<studiobot> <Eickmeyer> Ok
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> I just added the creative people text
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> :)
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> could you find me the link for the Eoan Ermine?
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> and the blurb for it?
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> actually nvm
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> release notes.. duh
<studiobot> <Eickmeyer> Hehehe
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> hey! its been a while since I have been active and this wasn't how I planned my evening tonight
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> :))
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> ok there is something that you can do to help me.
<studiobot> <Eickmeyer> Oh gee, sorry for the inconvenience. (not sarcasm). :D
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> haha its ok
<studiobot> <Eickmeyer> What do you need?
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> could you get to this pagehttp://ubuntustudio.playmain.com/download/ and use the same formatting? (but do not copy paste as it is old links)
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> if it is too problematic I can do it myself
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> but it looks like the downloads page got a little chaotic
<studiobot> <Eickmeyer> Yeah, I'll se what I can do.
<studiobot> <Eickmeyer> Oh, I see what happened. They converted it to the new block format that Wordpress introduced.
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> aah
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> (also wow the feature format section  has so much customization options)
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> *is very happy
<Eickmeyer[m]> :D
<studiobot> <Eickmeyer> @azbulutlu Download page is updated.
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> awesome. we have download links I am almost done with features
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> feel free to poke to anything that is not front page btw. (I'll finish the features and add the footers.
<studiobot> <Eickmeyer> Sounds good. Looks like the top nav needs some love.
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> what do you mean?
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> features are up
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> it might be worth checking nothing weird is there through
<studiobot> <Eickmeyer> Cool. I'm talking about the top nav not quite matching the one on Playmain, not hard to fix.
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> (I assume we'll do a proper content update when we know the final tally of the release, changed programs etc)
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> are you sure you are not seeing the fact that you are logged in?
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> potentially silly question but
<studiobot> <Eickmeyer> Yes, 100%. Are you still working on the footer?
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> yeah
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> well social media links but I cannot currently add them properly so will revisit the issue
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> (basically we'll need to find some icon sets, I might customize the one I made for my own website, but that will need to wait for a couple of days)
<Eickmeyer[m]> Ok, that's fine.
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> fixing the menu
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> I didn't know that was there :))
<studiobot> <Eickmeyer> Ohhhh... :D I was going to do it, but since you're already on it...
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> btw we should go over the footer (like the bottom footer and make sure that it is saying what it needs to be saying. it is currently not mentioning gpl also one min break while I order food
<studiobot> <Eickmeyer> Ok
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> ok actually the menu is a non trivial item to work with
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> we currently have 1 feature tour page
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> what they have on stage is a main feature tour page plus a page for each category so i am leaving it as it is for now but we need to fix it
<Eickmeyer[m]> Ok, I'll fix it. Not hard for me, I've done this before.
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> Alright. I'll continue copy pasting the front page
<studiobot> <Eickmeyer> @azbulutlu Top navmenu is now identical.
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> awesome
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> ok I think I am done
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> btw we do have text based social media links
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> that was me not realizing menu had to be added
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> I'll figure out an icon solution
<Eickmeyer[m]> Agreed. It looks great!
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> *high fives for successful copy pasting*
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> we should probably go over some of this content
<Eickmeyer[m]> LOL
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> I mean I said I will and I will, but I shouldn't be the only pair of eyes on this
<Eickmeyer[m]> Great job all around. :)
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> especially since i was on hiatus so long.
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> the site looks amazing
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> (and also it is really really easy to update when we need to...)
<studiobot> <Eickmeyer> Yeah, that's fine. I've been going over it right now, and we do have some stuff that could use updating (I just removed MyPaint since that's a lost cause, might bring-in something else that I was tipped-off about).
<studiobot> <Eickmeyer> It is super easy.
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> it actually isn't
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> there is a 2.0 beta around
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> (FINALLY)
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> in mean time people can install the rc candidate as an appimage. so no serious harm there
<studiobot> <Eickmeyer> Nice, but if they can't get out of beta before March, it's not going to make it.
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> its been in beta in a while
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> let me see how it is actually
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> oh
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> darktable 3.0
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> we need to make sure that is in
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> it came out over christmas
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> mypaint... we'll see xD
<studiobot> <Eickmeyer> Oof, yeah, that's one we sync from Debian, and it's still 2.6.3. https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/darktable
<studiobot> <Eickmeyer> Right now, Ardour is my focus because it was 1) removed from Debian testing and therefore, 2) removed from Ubuntu. I've got it building, but having trouble getting it to package correctly. @teward001 and I will be working on that.
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> yikes
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> Erich.. this is not my place to ask this but...
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> custom ppa something that is possible or viable?
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> or would it be too risky?
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> and ack
<studiobot> <Eickmeyer> That's not allowed per official flavor status requirements.
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> got it
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> good luck re:ardour
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> btw
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> are we getting either of those plugins for the website?
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> is there any news from RT on that front?
<studiobot> <Eickmeyer> RT says they need a bit more time to update PHP and our plugins.
<studiobot> <Eickmeyer> After that, we can investigate any new plugins.
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> alright
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> yeah I noticed that there was an outdated php alert
<Eickmeyer[m]> Alright, I'm going to make the new website public and do a victory dance.
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> we should encourage people to report to us any issues they notice
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> :))
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> and yeah it is well deserved
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> omg it only took...
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> actually you know what i am not thinking about that
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> *cheers*
<studiobot> <Eickmeyer> ð
<studiobot> <Sakrecoer> you made it!!!!! ??? â¤ï¸ you managed to publish a new website!!!! And wowowow!!! super neat! congratulations!!!!
<studiobot> <Eickmeyer> @Sakrecoer Yep! Can you believe it? They actually pulled the trigger without a fight!
<studiobot> <Sakrecoer> amazing!!! and that SVG animation is crazy sexy!!!! â¤ï¸
<studiobot> <Eickmeyer> Well, we can thank Playmain for that. Shinta and Bayu did a fantasitc job.
<studiobot> <Sakrecoer> next level stuff!! wow just wow!
<studiobot> <Eickmeyer> I have the feeling we'll be taken a little more seriously now with this site.
<studiobot> <Sakrecoer> for newcomers: absolutely!
<studiobot> <Sakrecoer> oops
<studiobot> <Sakrecoer> http://ubuntustudio.org/audio/
<studiobot> <Sakrecoer> 404
<studiobot> <Sakrecoer> ouch... this one too: http://ubuntustudio.org/graphics/
<studiobot> <Eickmeyer> @Sakrecoer The link should be tour/audio and tour/graphics
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> uhhh small problem
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> the news are in wrong order. xD
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> I'll see if I can fix that
<studiobot> <Sakrecoer> indeed!
<studiobot> <Sakrecoer> the links on the front page have forgotten the `tour`part
<studiobot> <Eickmeyer> Ohhhhh... @azbulutlu ^
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> I'll fix the links. THAT I know how to do
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> (and that's because we added the front page stuff before the tour stuff xD0
<studiobot> <Sakrecoer> a brand new website without a few 404 is bad luck, so good on y'all! ð
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> links fixed
<studiobot> <Sakrecoer> kabooom!
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> also did you delete the posts page?
<studiobot> <Eickmeyer> Which posts page?
<studiobot> <Eickmeyer> Oh, I don't think we ever had it. I can fix.
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> I think the main page needs to be something else
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> and news needs to be news
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> but idk
<Eickmeyer[m]> I'm looking into it.
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> actually hang on
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> I found out how I think
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> let me try fixing it
<Eickmeyer[m]> Ok
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> got it
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> one sec
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> (btw for future reference it is under "settings"
<Eickmeyer[m]> Yeah, I was looking ther.e
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> I'll almost say "news" should be a top navigation category btw. may I add it?
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> between about and features?
<Eickmeyer[m]> Sure.
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> done
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> still cannot find what determines the order of news posts on front page through
<Eickmeyer[m]> I fixed it. Stuff is stickied. My bad.
<Eickmeyer[m]> Uhhh... Home is going to News.
<studiobot> <Eickmeyer> (on the menu)
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> no no no it is fixed
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> ohh
<Eickmeyer[m]> I can fix it real quick.
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> meanwhile fixing the news page fixed the order of the posts
<studiobot> <Eickmeyer> Actually, I unstickied the 19.04 announcement. That's what was causing the issues.
<studiobot> <Eickmeyer> Menu is fixed.
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> ah!!!!
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> ok that makes a lot more sense *laughs*
<studiobot> <Eickmeyer> hehehe
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> https://mastodon.art/users/ubuntustudio/statuses/103522944926796669
<studiobot> <Eickmeyer> Perfect.
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> oh... https://libregraphicsmeeting.org/ submissions are up
<studiobot> <Eickmeyer> Yeah, I won't be able to make a conference in France in May.
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> I need to figure out which presentation/workshop idea i am going with if at all
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> *is really behind on projects*
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> oh and we can submit slides to state of libregraphics too if we wanted to.
<tomreyn> oops sorry
<Eickmeyer[m]> tomreyn: No worries.
<Eickmeyer[m]> So yeah, as soon as the sysadmin folks get around to updating our 1) Wordpress, 2) PHP, and 3) outdated plugins and themes, then I'll start bugging them about new plugins.
<studiobot> <teward001> *gives Eickmeyer the hat of shame for no apparent reason*
<Eickmeyer[m]> I'm a little leery of adding new plugins when they could be broken just by the fact of an outdated backend, but I'm taking suggestions. Yours is a very good one.
<studiobot> <Eickmeyer> *pours a gallon of salt on @teward001 *
<tomreyn> well this extension is really not needed when someone can just set those on the webserver.
<tomreyn> http://ubuntustudio.org/wp-content/themes/ubuntustudio-website/ has directory listings enabled
<Eickmeyer[m]> Indeed. Thing is, we can't even install plugins as that has to go through #canonical-sysadmin via an RT ticket.
<Eickmeyer[m]> tomreyn: I'm going to bug them about that immediately.
<Eickmeyer[m]> tomreyn: Looks like they're going to be working on a new deployment framework, so that might block getting that fixed.
<Eickmeyer[m]> Should be happening within weeks.
<tomreyn> cool, thanks for the feedback
<tomreyn> Eickmeyer[m]: oops, i missed that, but those download links are broken
<Eickmeyer> tomreyn: I'll have a look.
<Eickmeyer> tomreyn: Yep, I see that. Thanks! I'll fix.
<tomreyn> :)
<Eickmeyer[m]> tomreyn: Fixed. :)
<tomreyn> nice, nice. :)
<tomreyn> so there's only 18.04.0 DVDs, nothing newer?
<tomreyn> i guess it'd mean lot of work
<tomreyn> pointing to checksums and gpg keys and tutorials on using those could be nice, if it doesn't destroy the design
<tomreyn> And maybe make it "Release Note*s*".
<tomreyn> ah, the release notes do explain how to verify the checksums (at least MD5).
<Eickmeyer[m]> tomreyn: That's because we went non-LTS for 18.04, remember?
<tomreyn> oh right, i do now
<Eickmeyer[m]> Hence, it says 9 months.
<tomreyn> yes, i read "LTS" there but missed "will be supporting for 9 months"
<Eickmeyer[m]> I updated it a bit talking about the Backports PPA requirement.
<tomreyn> http://ubuntustudio.org/download/ has a broken link "Ubuntu Studio Installer"
<Eickmeyer[m]> I had to completely redo that page, so I'm not surprised.
<Eickmeyer[m]> Fixed.
<tomreyn> User comments are allowed on this page, you might want to point them to a forum or bug tracker instead.
<Eickmeyer[m]> Fixed.
<tomreyn> on the top of the page you have some text + links like this:
<tomreyn> "Checksums and alternative downloads: http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/ubuntustudio/releases/eoan/release/"
<tomreyn> this isn't too readable, maybe linkt he text, or add a line break before the link
<tomreyn> just a suggestion, and we're very close to nit picking now
<tomreyn> on the page footer it says: Ubuntu Studio (c) 2011- Canonical Ltd. 
<tomreyn> supposedly, the current year should be there
<Eickmeyer[m]> That might be hardcoded, but I'll look.
<tomreyn> the "webchat" link at https://ubuntustudio.org/contribute/ uses old-style qwebirc links which don't properly translate to nowadays' kiwi
<Eickmeyer[m]> tomreyn: I'm considering deleting that completely. The web chat tends to be toxic, and Matrix is so much better.
<tomreyn> (prospoect) developers who enjoy IRC probably don't need / want a web chat anyways.
<Eickmeyer[m]> Exactly. I'm keeping the support link for now.
<tomreyn> looong ago i got basic 'web journalism' training and they taught me to never create links like   To learn more on this topic, click <a href="...">this</a>.    but to use something like      <a href="...">Read on.</a>     or     More on the topic of <a href="">dinosaurs</a>
<tomreyn> i.e. never link words such as "this" or "click here"
<tomreyn> and i have to agree with them, also from a search engine indexing point of view
<Eickmeyer[m]> There's a LOT that hasn't been cleaned-up. There's a lot of overexplaining on there too.
<tomreyn> okay, just thought i'd bring it up ;)
<tomreyn> on /support/ the "inkscape forums" link needs to be updated to https://inkscape.org/forums/ and the "krita documentation" link to https://docs.krita.org/
<Eickmeyer[m]> tomreyn: Thanks, fixed.
<tomreyn> thanks!
#ubuntustudio-devel 2020-01-22
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> https://mastodon.social/@K_REY_C/103525009924440077
<studiobot> <Eickmeyer> @azbulutlu Nice. We're getting a lot of positive feedback.
<studiobot> <Eickmeyer> @azbulutlu Unrelated: ideas for a new default wallpaper?
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> I do have 2 actually. one in same vein as existing wallpapers and one very different, more illustration like. I just need like 2 days of things not exploding this weekend and monday.
<studiobot> <Eickmeyer> @azbulutlu Awesome. No worries.
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> :)
<studiobot> <Duke> I hate to beat a dead horse about DVDStyler.  However, I was just looking at the Ubuntu Studio web page (which is really nice, BTW).  I noticed that it listed DVDStyler under video.  I'm running Ubuntu Studio 19.10 now.  I checked Software, Synaptic Package Manager, and Snaps, and none of these list DVDStyler as an available option.  Is this
<studiobot>  an error on the web page? A future feature?
<studiobot> <Eickmeyer> Duke It's an error on the web page. It was dropped a looooong time ago since it was dropped upstream in Debian.
<studiobot> <Eickmeyer> Most of the content on there hasn't been updated in ages, and we're just now starting to catch stuff as a result of the new design.
<studiobot> <Duke> Okay.  I thought that it was dropped.  I was surprised to see it on the web page. Thanks @Eickmeyer
<studiobot> <Eickmeyer> Duke Yeah, it was dropped sometime in 2015 or so, afaict. It was because the original iteration used a non-free motion jpeg library which couldn't be included in Debian. It's free now, but it was never picked-up again. I don't have any interest in adding brand-new applications in an LTS release cycle unless absolutely necessary.
<studiobot> <Eickmeyer> This release cycle is about polish and making sure what we have works.
<teward> Eickmeyer[m]: I need you to subscribe the Studio Dev team to https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/raysession
<teward> and other packages that are within our purview so that 'issues' with removals don't recur in the same way.
<teward> because LP shows nobody looking after the packages :P
<teward> which is because E:NoTeamSubscribes
<Eickmeyer[m]> teward: Done.
<teward> Eickmeyer[m]: may also want to do the same for other packages we want to monitor as well, that way we can get notifications on bugs, changes, etc.
<teward> that way they'd check with Us (studio devs) before just pulling a package.
<teward> Second question: raysession, ardour, were they ever seeded in the studio ISOs?
<Eickmeyer[m]> teward: I subscribed you to the ubuntustudio-bugs team.
<studiobot> <teward001> thanks
<Eickmeyer[m]> teward: Yes, those were definitely seeded.
<Eickmeyer[m]> Ardour especially.
<Eickmeyer[m]> raysession was only in the last release.
<Eickmeyer[m]> teward: Where I'm at now is the ardour package isn't populating, and I don't know why.
<Eickmeyer[m]> https://launchpad.net/~eeickmeyer/+archive/ubuntu/ppa/+build/18599445
<teward> right i remember that from yesterday, I'll take a look when at home
<teward> in the interim you have PMs
<Eickmeyer[m]> Yep.
<studiobot> <teward001> where's the ardour code live again?
<studiobot> <Eickmeyer> It's a brand-new git repo, hang on.
<studiobot> <Eickmeyer> @teward001 https://code.launchpad.net/~ubuntustudio-dev/+git/ardour
<studiobot> <Eickmeyer> I'm pushing a couple of patches to it now.
<studiobot> <Eickmeyer> Should be good.
<studiobot> <Eickmeyer> ignore the python3waf branch.
<studiobot> <Eickmeyer> In fact, I just deleted it.
<studiobot> <teward001> @Eickmeyer i just pulled your .dsc and the source tarball off the PPA that you uploaded 37min ago
<studiobot> <teward001> running in local sbuild to populate the build env/session with data
<studiobot> <Eickmeyer> Ok, that works.
<studiobot> <teward001> because i'm a lazy SOB :P
<studiobot> <Eickmeyer> :P
<studiobot> <Eickmeyer> Ok, then how are you going to commit any changes?
<studiobot> <teward001> never said I was going to in this run
<studiobot> <teward001> i'm just exploring the build env first
<studiobot> <Eickmeyer> Gotcha.
<studiobot> <teward001> for the record this shit is huge :?
<studiobot> <teward001> it's making my computer heat up xD
<studiobot> <Eickmeyer> Yes. It's a big one. It's one of the biggest things we have.
<OvenWerks> @teward001: generally takes my system 15 min to build from scratch (for one arch) CPUs go at 100% (all of them) for that whole time
<OvenWerks> lets me know when it's time to clean the dust out from inside
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer[m]: it has been a while since I had to resort to mounting a drive using these: http://www.ovenwerks.net/paste/IMG_1497.JPG
<studiobot> <teward001> @Eickmeyer i may ask a few others to put eyes on this with more experience, mostly because for all intents and purposes it SHOULD be including the binaries.  May have to check the rules file next.  After an hour nap I am tired
<studiobot> <Eickmeyer> Yeah. My changes for compat were largely ineffective too.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2020-01-23
<Eickmeyer[m]> OvenWerks: Oh wow, I haven't used a 5.25-3.5" adapter in eons.
<OvenWerks> One of my drives is PATA and needs to be right under the DVD (also PATA). Other wise there is one more 3.5 bay at the bottom.
<Eickmeyer[m]> I'm thinking: 19.10 is out. 3 months from now is its release. 19.04 is now EOL. The leap from 18.04 to 20.04 will be huuuuuge considering all we've done in the past two years. 18.04 is hard to support. I think all new installations should be 19.10 and upgraded to 20.04 when it comes out, since that will be a small leap and people can have the LTS support of 20.04. Thoughts?
<Eickmeyer[m]> I mean, at this point it'd be silly to have people install 18.04 only to upgrade to 20.04 in 3 months.
<OvenWerks> Seeing as 18.04 was never labeled LTS, it should not be a big problem
<OvenWerks> Is it listed on the website DL page?
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer[m]: on the other hand, someone who has installed Studio over vanilla, does have an LTS
<OvenWerks> So backports for 18.04 should mirror that
<Eickmeyer[m]> OvenWerks: That's a different matter altogether.
<Eickmeyer[m]> I'm concerned with new installations.
<OvenWerks> Like I said removing any link to the ISO from the web page makes sense
<OvenWerks> It could even be EOL-ed
<OvenWerks> (in fact it should be by definition)
<Eickmeyer[m]> I removed it from the front and replaced it with a "20.04 Focal Fossa - COMING SOON" non-link.
<Eickmeyer[m]> I'm just wondering about the download page now.
<OvenWerks> The one thing That is difficult is those doing the install old version to get 32 bit and upgrade
<OvenWerks> I think that works up to 19.10.
<Eickmeyer[m]> It doesn't. The release team has disabled upgrading from 32-bit.
<OvenWerks> So 1804 is it then
 * OvenWerks has a perfectly good 32 bit laptop...
<Eickmeyer[m]> I mean, that's understandable, but we're not in the business of reviving old hardware anyhow. We've already discussed how our applications don't even run well on older hardware.
<OvenWerks> understood
<OvenWerks> there seems to be a break at about 15 years ago where everything made before lasts "forever" and stuff made fater lasts 5 years :P
<OvenWerks> (or less)
<Eickmeyer[m]> Something like that. I have a 2011 MacBook Pro that still runs like a champ.
<Eickmeyer[m]> I've had to replace its battery twice though.
<OvenWerks> I have a 1998 nec LT that works fine too, but it is slow, the 10-12 year old LT on the other hand is still very useful.
<OvenWerks> Hmm, actually, if I took the 98 nec and used it in text mode only...
<Eickmeyer[m]> LOL Look at you with 22-year-old museum relics... :D :D
<Eickmeyer[m]> The Living Computer Museum in Seattle wants a word with you. ð¤£
<Eickmeyer[m]> I'm just kidding, OvenWerks . :)
<OvenWerks> I actually do quite a lot in text. This irc, all my mail, system maintenance...
<Eickmeyer[m]> Probably not a bad idea just to have it as an SSH terminal.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2020-01-24
<studiobot> <teward001> Eickmeyer: where's the code for this sit?
<studiobot> <teward001> i need to reclone and beat my head against sbuild derping
<Eickmeyer[m]> Told you in a PM, but you found it anyhow. :P
<studiobot> <teward001> yep
<studiobot> <teward001> coincidental timing :P
<studiobot> <teward001> BUT
<studiobot> <teward001> i have it in sbuild right now
<studiobot> <teward001> so we'll be able to see if infinity's suggestion fixes it :)
<studiobot> <Eickmeyer> Imagine if this simple fix does.
<studiobot> <teward001> hey it's always the simple shit that makes the worst headaches xD
<studiobot> <teward001> FTBFS
<studiobot> <teward001> @Eickmeyer so that didn't fix it
<studiobot> <teward001> it fully FTBFS
<studiobot> <Eickmeyer> Laaaame.
<studiobot> <teward001> excerpt of the failing part of logs made available
<studiobot> <teward001> build logs are 36k lines
<studiobot> <teward001> (Document) http://studiobot.ericheickmeyer.com:9090/iHp60v35/file_81.build
<studiobot> <Eickmeyer> Yeah, I saw what you posted in u-devel.
<studiobot> <teward001> http://people.ubuntu.com/~teward/ardour_5.12.0-3ubuntu1_amd64-2020-01-24T05:12:38Z.build also is the full link to it for others to use
<studiobot> <teward001> but it's weird
<studiobot> <Eickmeyer> @teward001 Yep, s390x FTBFS, but I have the feeling it's going to be a full FTBFS.
<studiobot> <teward001> @Erik
<studiobot> <teward001> and it FTBFS
<studiobot> <teward001> my question is
<studiobot> <teward001> whether this is indicative of missing built libraries
<studiobot> <teward001> or other package problems
<studiobot> <teward001> or whether the package is just totally fubar and no longer maintainable
<studiobot> <Eickmeyer> No, because if you look further up in the logs it's building those libraries.
<studiobot> <Eickmeyer> @teward001
<studiobot> <teward001> hmm then I wonder why it can't *find* the libraries anywhere
<studiobot> <teward001> unless it's not putting them in the build paths in which case something is REALLY wonky
<studiobot> <Eickmeyer> Yeah, it doesn't make any sense at all.
<studiobot> <Eickmeyer> Go to bed, @teward001 , it's after midnight.
<studiobot> <Sakrecoer> (removing my telegram account from this channel now that i have it in matrix)
<studiobot> Sakrecoer was removed by: Sakrecoer
#ubuntustudio-devel 2020-01-25
<Eickmeyer[m]> OvenWerks: The good news is that Ardour will be heading back to the repos. teward and I fixed it.
<Eickmeyer[m]> I'll try to figure out if idjc can be salvaged.
<Eickmeyer[m]> Yeah, that's way over my head. I don't think I can get that one to patch properly.
<studiobot> <teward001> @Eickmeyer orrrrrrrrrr not
<studiobot> <teward001> Rejected: â¦ File ardour_5.12.0-3ubuntu1.debian.tar.xz already exists in Primary Archive for Ubuntu, but uploaded version has different contents. See more information about this error in https://help.launchpad.net/Packaging/UploadErrors. â¦ Files specified in DSC are broken or missing, skipping package unpack verification.
<studiobot> <teward001> sorry my mail died because my residential network exploded, I had to switch over to my business connection
<studiobot> <teward001> but yeah, I'm assuming you didn't version bump it
<studiobot> <teward001> so I'm going to version bump it
<studiobot> <teward001> which i'd have to do anyways thanks to doko's failures
<studiobot> <teward001> @Eickmeyer I've pushed the version change to the repo, can you tag it?
<studiobot> <teward001> assuming you do version tagging
<studiobot> <Eickmeyer> Yeah, I can.
<studiobot> <teward001> okay THAT looks better
<studiobot> <teward001> ```ardour (1:5.12.0-3ubuntu2) focal; urgency=medium â¦   * This upload does NOT include the changes introduced in 1:5.12.0-3ubuntu1 â¦     which is in focal-proposed due to those changes FTBFSing entirely and â¦     requiring the changes applied here in -3ubuntu2. â¦   * Update to waf 2.0.19, patch to build with python 3 â¦     * 0010-waf.pa
<studiobot> tch updated by Erich Eickmeyer â¦     * 0020-fix-wscripts.patch by Erich Eickmeyer, â¦       code by David Runge (Ardour Developer) â¦     * 0025-point-to-custom-autowaf.patch by Erich Eickmeyer â¦       code by Robin Gareus (Ardour Developer) â¦     * 0028-Patch-waf-to-actually-build-install-properly.patch â¦       by Erich Eickmeyer, code by Robin Gare
<studiobot> us (Ardour Developer) â¦   * Patch to build against fluidsynth 2 â¦     * 0027-fluidsynth2.patch by Andreas MÃ¼ller â¦   * Drop wiimote support as recommended from upstream Ardour â¦ Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2020 09:36:23 -0800 â¦ Changed-By: Erich Eickmeyer <erich@ericheickmeyer.com> â¦ Maintainer: Ubuntu Developers <ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com> â¦ Sig
<studiobot> ned-By: Thomas Ward <teward@thomas-ward.net> â¦ https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ardour/1:5.12.0-3ubuntu2```
<studiobot> <teward001> Accepted
<studiobot> <Eickmeyer> Probably a result of doko uploading a version that fully FTBFS due to the python 3 thing. #shocker
<studiobot> <Eickmeyer> Uhhh... you comitted the removal of libs/ardour/config_text.cc and libs/ardour/revision.cc. That might cause problems.
<studiobot> <Eickmeyer> @teward001 ^
<studiobot> <teward001> ð
<studiobot> <teward001> okay that's a mistake
<studiobot> <teward001> i'll fix that
<studiobot> <teward001> git revert
<studiobot> <Eickmeyer> Yup.
<studiobot> <teward001> git revert then nitpick my changelog changes only
<studiobot> <teward001> :P
<studiobot> <teward001> please :)
<studiobot> <teward001> (including the note that it skipped -3ubuntu1 because that's a relevant note)
<studiobot> <teward001> (I did the git commit after the source build oops)
<studiobot> <Eickmeyer> Yeeep, but you're going to have to go 3ubuntu3 because you uploaded 3ubuntu2 and it was accepted.
<studiobot> <teward001> ... or we stage the changes for next upload
<studiobot> <teward001> -3ubuntu2 the removal of stuff was because of the sbuild run
<studiobot> <teward001> debuild run*
<studiobot> <Eickmeyer> Yeah, I know. I had to discard those changes EVERY time I ran debuild.
<studiobot> <Eickmeyer> Do you want to do the dirty work or should I?
<studiobot> <teward001> i've already reverted.
<studiobot> <Eickmeyer> Ok. I'll pull.
<studiobot> <teward001> just... tag it as -3ubuntu2 if you haven't already.
<studiobot> <teward001> then i'll pull and debuild -S it again.  The commit of the removal wasn't intentional
<studiobot> <teward001> but debuild *does* remove the files during source vuild run so
<studiobot> <Eickmeyer> Yeah, but we don't want to screw that up.
<studiobot> <teward001> or are you saying that removal is 'bad" because debuild removed them and we need -3ubuntu3 anyways?
<studiobot> <teward001> E:UNCLEAR
<studiobot> <teward001> well, the git revert reverted the removals so ð
<studiobot> <teward001> the git commit was *after* I did the `debuild -S -sa` call
<studiobot> <teward001> sooooo
<studiobot> <teward001> that's probably the issue there
<studiobot> <Eickmeyer> Yeah, I'm not worried about it now, but I would be worried if something got angry about the files not being there to remove.
<studiobot> <Eickmeyer> You know, unexpected FTBFS and all due to two files not being able to be deleted.
<studiobot> <teward001> true, but the `clean` step is called anyways
<studiobot> <teward001> and it has `rm -f`
<studiobot> <teward001> which means whether it exists or not it won't error
<studiobot> <teward001> called during debuild -S and called during build time
<studiobot> <teward001> which is why it didn't FTBFS in local testing
<studiobot> <teward001> because it was already purged from the source package.
<studiobot> <teward001> https://git.launchpad.net/~ubuntustudio-dev/+git/ardour/tree/debian/rules#n96
<studiobot> <teward001> and line 98 under it
<studiobot> <teward001> there's several clean calls it seems
<studiobot> <Eickmeyer> Ah, I guess I didn't see that.
<studiobot> <teward001> yeah it has multiple nasty clean calls in here
<studiobot> <teward001> but the clean phase purges the config_text.cc and version.cc files anyways
<studiobot> <teward001> i agree committing that change is *bad*
<studiobot> <teward001> but sbuild *will* clean those files
<studiobot> <teward001> debuild*
<studiobot> <Eickmeyer> Right, but we shouldn't be modifying the source files directly. I guess that's probably the biggest objection.
<studiobot> <teward001> as i said that's why git revert is helpful
<studiobot> <teward001> again
<studiobot> <Eickmeyer> Yeeep.
<studiobot> <teward001> this was just a minor misstep which we can fix because we didn't tag anything yet
<studiobot> <Eickmeyer> Right.
<studiobot> <teward001> extract the changelog bits, revise changelog, commit JUST that
<studiobot> <teward001> tag after that
<studiobot> <teward001> problem solved
<studiobot> <Eickmeyer> Yep. So, are we uploading 3ubuntu2 or 3 ubuntu 3? I just want to know what we're doing so as to version properly.
<studiobot> <Eickmeyer> @teward001 ?
<studiobot> <Eickmeyer> Nevermind.
<studiobot> <teward001> @Eickmeyer [Yep. So, are we uploading 3ubuntu2 or 3 ubuntu 3? I just want to know what we're â¦], 3ubuntu2
<studiobot> <Eickmeyer> k
<studiobot> <teward001> because the .cc files would be removed anyways
<studiobot> <Eickmeyer> Right
<studiobot> <Eickmeyer> That's what occurred to me, hence the nevermind.
<RikMills> Eickmeyer: did you seed scribus-ng? if so I think you can go back to scribus normal package now so we can get rid of the ng one
<Eickmeyer[m]> RikMills: It's like you read my mind. I'm updating the seed now. haha
<RikMills> :)
<Eickmeyer[m]> Had to get some ardour stuff fixed in the meantime.
<Eickmeyer[m]> That's all sorted now.
<Eickmeyer[m]> Just didn't want to update the seed without ardour and raysession.
<RikMills> all cool. I was poked by the debian maintainer as they thought it was seeded somewhere
<Eickmeyer[m]> It was, is now not.
<RikMills> :)
#ubuntustudio-devel 2020-01-26
 * Eickmeyer[m] uploaded an image: 2020-01-26 124412.png (262KB) < https://matrix.org/_matrix/media/r0/download/matrix.org/OwOYcViuMHTwLwuPEEpQgqeu >
<Eickmeyer[m]> OvenWerks: I got that screengrab of -installer for you.
<Eickmeyer> It's that giganic link right there ^
<OvenWerks> I wonder if the output of the command somehow has a ] in it or a ]?
<OvenWerks> I guess we will have to add a debugging line to it.
<OvenWerks> (the screen shot did not add much :P )
<Eickmeyer[m]> Well, you asked for it. :P
<OvenWerks> I know..
