#launchpad-meeting 2008-03-11
<Seeker`> Hi, just a quick message to let you know that Mootbot may be disappearing for a while in the near future due to hosting issues
<intellectronica> me
#launchpad-meeting 2008-03-12
<gmb> So, who's chairing the meeting today?
<sinzui> gmb: statik
<gmb> Cool.
<salgado> I almost said me, thinking that the meeding had started already
<gmb> Curse! My trap is foiled.
<gmb> Does statik know he's chairing? ;)
<sinzui> gmb: barry and he discussed it
<gmb> Right.
<gmb> I'll go round up some of the troops...
<intellectronica> me
<danilos> me
<jtv> me
<flacoste> me
<gmb> Hold your horses boys
<statik> sorry folks
<statik> fsck runs at the *worst* possible time
<statik> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 15:06. The chair is statik.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<statik> so, whos here?
<gmb> me
<jtv> me
<intellectronica> me
<statik> me
<sinzui> me
<bac> me
<bigjools> me
<salgado> me
<gmb> schwuk will be late as he's had to step out
<statik> * Roll call
<statik>  * Next meeting
<statik>    * Change time to 1400 UTC due to US daylight savings time?
<statik>  * Action items
<statik>  * Queue status
<statik>  * Mentoring update
<statik>  * Review process
<allenap> me
<statik> [TOPIC] Next meeting time
<MootBot> New Topic:  Next meeting time
<BjornT> meme
<statik> should we change the meeting time?
<BjornT> +1
<statik> [VOTE] change the meeting time to 1400 UTC
<MootBot> Please vote on:  change the meeting time to 1400 UTC.
<MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
<MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #launchpad-meeting
<statik> +0
<MootBot> Abstention received from statik. 0 for, 0 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 0
<jtv> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from jtv. 1 for, 0 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 1
<gmb> +0
<MootBot> Abstention received from gmb. 1 for, 0 against. 2 have abstained. Count is now 1
<bac> -1
<MootBot> -1 received from bac. 1 for, 1 against. 2 have abstained. Count is now 0
<BjornT> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from BjornT. 2 for, 1 against. 2 have abstained. Count is now 1
<allenap> +0
<MootBot> Abstention received from allenap. 2 for, 1 against. 3 have abstained. Count is now 1
<bigjools> -1
<sinzui> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from sinzui. 3 for, 1 against. 3 have abstained. Count is now 2
<MootBot> -1 received from bigjools. 3 for, 2 against. 3 have abstained. Count is now 1
<intellectronica> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from intellectronica. 4 for, 2 against. 3 have abstained. Count is now 2
<salgado> +0
<MootBot> Abstention received from salgado. 4 for, 2 against. 4 have abstained. Count is now 2
<flacoste> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from flacoste. 5 for, 2 against. 4 have abstained. Count is now 3
<statik> [AGREED] Change this meeting to 1400UTC going forward
<MootBot> AGREED received:  Change this meeting to 1400UTC going forward
<bigjools> can I point out that this will be over UK people's lunch hour when the clocks go forwards here
<gmb> bigjools: No it won't.
<gmb> 14:00 UTC == 15:00 BST
 * bigjools is a loser
<gmb> Granted.
<statik> [TOPIC] Action items
<MootBot> Vote is in progress. Finishing now.
<MootBot> Final result is 5 for, 2 against. 4 abstained. Total: 3
<MootBot> New Topic:  Action items
<statik> anyone have action items?
<statik> ubmit to enforce 800 line limit.
<gmb> Ah.
<statik>  * gmb to hack review-submit to enforce 800 line limit.
<gmb> Big fat fail, I'm afraid. Still need to forward my patch to mwh for approval.
<gmb> Leave it on the agenda; I'll tackle it this week.
 * gmb is also a loser
<statik> there, there, don't be too hard on yourself. it's a lot of work sending an email
<statik> [TOPIC] Queue status
<MootBot> New Topic:  Queue status
<statik> I see 9 branches that are colored pink
<gmb> Yeah, there are quite a few > SLA.
<statik> but the general queue is empty
<flacoste> db branches?
<statik> flacoste: 3 are db branches
<gmb> Are the on-call reviewers letting people know when they've been assigned branches from the queue?
<statik> schwuk: need any help with your review?
<statik> allenap: same question
<gmb> statik: schwuk's not here yet
<statik> the others over SLA are in the other reviewer meeting
<sinzui> I know schwuk started to review navlinks-by-content, but I don't see it in my mail
<statik> sinzui: are you his mentor?
<allenap> statik: No, I'm okay right now, but a bit behind. I have apologised to abel.
<sinzui> statik: I am
<statik> sinzui: can you follow up with schwuk to see if he needs anything?
<sinzui> I will
<statik> allenap: great
<statik> sinzui: thank you
<statik> [TOPIC] Mentoring update
<MootBot> New Topic:  Mentoring update
<statik> does anyone have some fantastic and insightful comments about mentoring?
<gmb> No, but I've agreed to mentor bigjools whilst his mentor is away.
<statik> does anyone want to complain about their mentors?
<statik> gmb: that is great, thanks for volunteering
<statik> I noticed you helping him with the lunchtime thing earlier
<gmb> I shall resist from sticking the boot in further :)
<statik> [TOPIC] Review process
<MootBot> New Topic:  Review process
<bigjools> wise
<statik> I have a question about the review process
<statik> there was talk about releasing the lpreview plugin as open source
<statik> is anyone following up on that?
<gmb> statik: It was mentioned, then kiko mentioned the process that such a release would have to go through, then... nothing after that, I think.
<statik> is there any reason that we should NOT release it?
<sinzui> I think our recent additions would make it less useful for release.
<bigjools> someone would need to manage submissions
<statik> sinzui: what additions are those?
<sinzui> The PR block ouput, make lint, 800 line limit,
<statik> my thinking is that this plugin might be an interesting base for companies who are considering bazaar. I am not thinking that we will get useful contributions back
<gmb> statik: I think that we'd have to have a released branch and an used-by-lpdevs branch really.
<gmb> For exactly the reasons that sinzui stated.
<statik> gmb: that sounds like extra work, which is a good reason not to release
<gmb> Right.
<statik> ok. the floor is open for anyone who wants to talk about our review process
<statik> 5
<statik> 4
<statik> 3
<sinzui> schwuk asked me how do we review sourcecode changes
<statik> 2
<statik> aha
<statik> fantastic question
<statik> we submit sourcecode changes via PQM
<statik> but typically there are certain people who are more familiar with the code in a particular sourcecode dir
<statik> for example, I recently added feedvalidator to sourcecode
<statik> Edwin fixed a bug, and I reviewed it and submitted it
<statik> I think for sourcecode changes we have a good idea of what is affected, and will need to individually arrange for reviews based on how significant the change is
<statik> I don't think sourcecode changes can be assigned to the general review team
<statik> but that is just my opinion
<statik> BjornT: what do you think about review of sourcecode changes? flacoste?
<sinzui> bugger
<flacoste> i agree with your explanation
<sinzui> I missed the response to my question
<flacoste> but it also depends of the actual code
<statik>  we submit sourcecode changes via PQM
<statik>  but typically there are certain people who are more familiar with the code in a particular sourcecode dir
<statik>  for example, I recently added feedvalidator to sourcecode
<statik>  Edwin fixed a bug, and I reviewed it and submitted it
<statik>  I think for sourcecode changes we have a good idea of what is affected, and will need to individually arrange for reviews based on how significant the change is
<statik>  I don't think sourcecode changes can be assigned to the general review team
<statik>  but that is just my opinion
<flacoste> for example, we don't usually commit to zope directly
<flacoste> but first land upstream and backport the fix
<flacoste> the idea is to prevent diversion
<flacoste> although we currently have one (stub's changes to the testrunner which aren't meaningful for upstream)
<sinzui> schwuk was review mwhudson's navlinks. to see the changes, he has to run loggerhead
<schwuk> sinzui: for which I got instructions off mwhudson
<sinzui> schwuk: rock!
<statik> that sounds fine, I don't think we have anyone else on the team that is particularly familiar with loggerhead
<statik> and I will deny ever sending patches upstream for it
<schwuk> but IMO those instructions should have been included with the review request,or put on the wiki and linked to
<schwuk> for everyone's benefit
<statik> schwuk: good point, could you and mwhudson collaborate on getting some instructions on the wiki about running loggerhead?
<schwuk> statik: sure
<statik> awesome
<statik> [AGREED] schwuk to work with mwhudson on getting loggerhead instructions on the wiki
<MootBot> AGREED received:  schwuk to work with mwhudson on getting loggerhead instructions on the wiki
<statik> any other topics to discuss?
<statik> 5
<statik> 4
<statik> 3
<statik> 2
<statik> 1
<statik> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 15:29.
<flacoste> thanks statik!
<bac> thanks statik
<statik> thanks everyone!
<gmb> Cheers statik
<intellectronica> thanks statik
#launchpad-meeting 2008-03-13
<cprov> I can haz meeting ?!
 * mwhudson blinks
<statik> oi
<danilos> we
<cprov> me
<sinzui> em
<bac> Rinchen: ?
<Rinchen> close
<Rinchen> try again
<thumper> kiko
<kiko> hello hello
<danilos> kikoooo
<Rinchen> thumper, correct!
<abentley> do me re fa so la ti do
 * thumper wonders if he can summon kiko into other channels
<kiko> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 18:02. The chair is kiko.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<kiko> hosted by me, with spammy MootBot in my wake!
<kiko> [TOPIC] Roll Call
<MootBot> New Topic:  Roll Call
<sinzui> me
<thumper> me
<bac> me
<carlos> me
<statik> me
<herb> me
<abentley> me
<jt1> me
<salgado> me
<mrevell> me
<matsubara> me
<intellectronica> me
<kiko> hooo is heeereee
<statik> Edwin is at pycon
<kiko> me
<BjornT> me
<cprov> me
<mpt> me
<adeuring> me
<Rinchen> me
<danilos> me
<schwuk> me
<mwhudson> me
<kiko> me
<flacoste> me
<allenap> me
 * kiko pokes gmb_ and BjornT 
<leonardr> me
<kiko> one for being absent, one for being his manager!
<kiko> stub!!
<stub> kiko!!
<kiko> zat iz me
<kiko> okay then
<flacoste> barry and maris are off to PyCon
<kiko> BjornT, gmb_ absent?
<kiko> yeah
<kiko> poor pyconners
<kiko> [TOPIC] Agenda
<MootBot> New Topic:  Agenda
<kiko>  * Next meeting
<kiko>  * Actions from last meeting
<kiko>  * Oops report (Matsubara)
<kiko>  * Critical Bugs (Rinchen)
<kiko>  * Bug tags
<kiko>  * Operations report (mthaddon/herb)
<kiko>  * DBA report (stub)
<kiko>  * Sysadmin requests (Rinchen)
<kiko>  * New packages required (salgado)
<kiko>  * A top user-affecting issue (mrevell)
<kiko>  * Doc Team report (mrevell)
<kiko>  * canonical_url(..., view_name) (aaron, me)
<kiko> * Blockers
<gmb_> me
<gmb_> Sorry, I suck.
<kiko> [TOPIC] Actionz from last meet1ng
<MootBot> New Topic:  Actionz from last meet1ng
<kiko>  * salgado to investigate codebrowse and germinate inclusion in sourcecode
<kiko> salgado rocks and rolls
<salgado> done!
<kiko> Thank you all for attending this week's Launchpad Developer Meeting. See the channel topic for the location of the logs.
<kiko> hah! false alarm
<kiko> [TOPIC] Oops report (Matsubara)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Oops report (Matsubara)
<matsubara> Today's oops report is about bugs 201856, 201853, 161743, 200572
<ubotu> Launchpad bug 201856 in launchpad-bazaar "OOPS recorded ssh'ing into bazaar.launchpad.net" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/201856
<ubotu> Launchpad bug 201853 in launchpad-bazaar "OOPS recorded executing remote command" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/201853
<ubotu> Launchpad bug 161743 in launchpad-bazaar "Traceback from Twisted while running codehosting acceptance tests" [High,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/161743
<ubotu> Bug 200572 on http://launchpad.net/bugs/200572 is private
<matsubara> thumper, can you find assignees for the lp-bzr ones? First two should not record oopses
<matsubara> or if they do, those oopses should be like SoftTimeRequests in the sense that they're not fatal. #161743 is the top one for codehosting at the moment.
<matsubara> Who should take care of 200572? Foundations maybe?
<thumper> matsubara: yes
<kiko> please let this not be an XSS nonsense
<carlos> kiko: you jumped next week meeting... I will not be around (on public holidays)
<kiko> ah, right
<kiko> umm mmm
<kiko> carlos, right, let's do that after this one.
<kiko> matsubara, you sure you don't want to fix that one yourself? it's so easy
<carlos> ok
<flacoste> we should tansform that into UnexpectedFormData?
<flacoste> this can happen in a lot of place actually
<Rinchen> +1 for UFDs
<Rinchen> the more we can capture, the better we can diagnose
<kiko> well
<kiko> sure, UFD is fine.
<matsubara> I think it should be a 404
<flacoste> for example, i'm sure http://launchpad.dev/%ED45 would suffer the same fate
<BjornT> i think it should be a 404 as well. it's not a form.
<kiko> if you visit http://launchpad.net/ubuntu/hoary/bar
<kiko> you get a 404
<kiko> so I correct myself
<kiko> 404 -- this is just an artifact of improper utf8 handling in the query?
<matsubara> flacoste: the traceback looks different.
<kiko> matsubara, if you visit https://edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/hoary/%ee you get no OOPS page, but a Please try again. :)
<matsubara> flacoste: and the one described in the bug report goes directly into the db
<flacoste> normal, it's not the same code path
<flacoste> but the exception should be the same, no?
<matsubara> I mean, the one described in the report triggers a DB ProgrammingError kind of error, while the other triggers the usual UnicodeDecodeError
<flacoste> right,
<stub> We don't have any guards in our FooSet.getByName methods for invalid UTF8, so PG will barf.
<flacoste> i remember adding a ascii encoding to Pillar for tests purpose
<kiko> flacoste, matsubara: can you guys meet up and make a decision later?
<flacoste> actually, there are many places where invalid UTF8 can be introduced
<kiko> this is an issue that really annoys me as I /hate/ nonsense in the OOPS summaries
<stub> A decorator for our byname methods might be cool
<flacoste> stub is volunteering :-)
<stub> I'm bikeshedding
<matsubara> I'll add the discussion to the report.
<kiko> [ACTION] matsubara, flacoste and stub to discuss UTF-8 safety of byName and other random attacks to launchpad.net
<MootBot> ACTION received:  matsubara, flacoste and stub to discuss UTF-8 safety of byName and other random attacks to launchpad.net
<kiko> matsubara, still want more oops discussion?
<matsubara> apart from that we can move on. thanks kiko
<matsubara> and thanks thumper!
<kiko> [TOPIC]  * Actions from last meeting
<MootBot> New Topic:   * Actions from last meeting
<kiko> oh phoey
<stub> its safe - PG barfs because it checks properly
<kiko> [TOPIC]  * Next meeting
<MootBot> New Topic:   * Next meeting
 * Rinchen is happy he's not the only one
 * kiko curses Rinchen 
<kiko> next meeting: same time, same place. who's not gonna be here?
<carlos> I will be on public holidays (and I guess I'm not the only one...)
<stub> When does NZ drop out of DS time?
<Rinchen> thailand folks too?
<BjornT> i won't be there
<thumper> no idea
<thumper> it's Easter Friday for me next week
<kiko> so BjornT and carlos won't be here. anyone else?
<stub> Rinchen: Nope
<bac> i'll be out
 * thumper out#
<mpt> DST ends on April 6
<kiko> so thumper, BjornT, carlos.
<mwhudson> it'll be good friday for me
<kiko> anyone else can't make it?
<kiko> going
<bac> me
<kiko> going
<kiko> jesus, guys, pay attention
<mpt> So April 10th's meeting will be at 6am
<bac> jesus, kiko, scroll up
<kiko> who can't make it to the meeting next week?
<thumper> me
<kiko> right right
<kiko> wonderful
<stub> mpt: Unless we switch the meeting times back then
<kiko> bac, thumper, carlos, BjornT, mwhudson will be missed
<danilos> bac: how about you, will you be in for the next meeting?
<Rinchen> kiko, please do an [AGREED] on those not attending next week so I can pick it out of the logs easily.
<kiko> Rinchen, you can do them too, you know? :)
<kiko> [AGREED] bac, thumper, carlos, BjornT, mwhudson out next week
<Rinchen> think it's only moderator but I'll try
<MootBot> AGREED received:  bac, thumper, carlos, BjornT, mwhudson out next week
<kiko> we can consider changing the time again next week if people like?
<jt1> earlier would be nice
<kiko> [ACTION] consider changing meeting time during next meeting
<MootBot> ACTION received:  consider changing meeting time during next meeting
<thumper> earlier isn't nice
<kiko> jt1, you talk to thumper :)
 * BjornT agrees with jt1 :)
<stub> kiko: It would need to wait until NZ goes out of DS time
<jt1> not now too tired can't think straight
<kiko> [TOPIC]  Critical Bugs (Rinchen)
<MootBot> New Topic:   Critical Bugs (Rinchen)
<Rinchen> Howdy, a few for today
<Rinchen> [LINK] https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/launchpad/+bug/196936
<Rinchen> abel, how is this going?
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/launchpad/+bug/196936
<Rinchen> [LINK] https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/rosetta/+bug/196106
<Rinchen> [LINK] https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/rosetta/+bug/200499
<Rinchen> [LINK] https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/rosetta/+bug/201394
<Rinchen> danilo, carlos, jtv: how are this going?
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/rosetta/+bug/196106
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/rosetta/+bug/200499
<ubotu> Launchpad bug 196106 in rosetta "context menu entry "Paste File" [and other dialogs] not translated into German (anymore)" [Critical,In progress]
<ubotu> Launchpad bug 200499 in rosetta "Imported translation from upstream not correctly importing all strings" [Critical,In progress]
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/rosetta/+bug/201394
<Rinchen> [LINK] https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/launchpad/+bug/198825
<Rinchen> jml, how is this going?
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/launchpad/+bug/198825
<cprov> yes, +1 for earlier, I'm the only one from soyuz able to attend (because they think I'm still jetlagged)
<thumper> Rinchen: jml isn't here, what's the bug?
<danilos> Rinchen: testing on chokecherry, took longer than expected, should be ready by tomorrow or early next week at the latest
<kiko> cprov, why are bigjools and al-maisan not here?
<Rinchen> danilos, thanks
<adeuring> Rinchen: I'm waiting for a core dump; agreed with Kiko that we make a test run tomorrow on the PQM machine
<cprov> kiko: because they have life ;)
<carlos> Rinchen: 200499 is on pqm, 201394 is being tested on staging so I can get a cherry pick from kiko
<Rinchen> adeuring, thanks. If you need help getting the dump, just ping
<kiko> cprov, not on thursdays they don't. black marks for them.
<Rinchen> carlos, great thanks.
<mwhudson> Rinchen: i think that is Fix Committed now
<thumper> Rinchen: I think this may have been in the commit just reverted (jml authserver bug)
<cprov> kiko: duderino, they have kids and all that sort of /stuff/ ...
<Rinchen> thumper, mwhudson - yes on authserver
<Rinchen> ok, great. Thanks for the status.  That was surprisingly quick.
<sinzui> cprov: life == launchpad
<kiko> cprov, I've already emailed them -- I don't care, it's one day a week
<Rinchen> kiko, back to you
<mwhudson> oh yes, it got reverted
<mwhudson> jml will be happy
<Rinchen> just need to update the statuses then...
 * sinzui is using a child to convince the shop keepers to let him stay for the meeting.
<kiko> Rinchen, there were two other critical rosetta bugs?
<carlos> kiko: I already answered to Rinchen
<cprov> sinzui: and there we go ... my hands start shaking again :)
<kiko> Rinchen, sorry, non-rosetta bugs?
<Rinchen> kiko, the 3 I mentioned are replied to above.  a 4th I didn't mention as it's fixed commit
<kiko> gotcha.
<kiko> moving on!
<kiko> [TOPIC] Bug tags
<MootBot> New Topic:  Bug tags
<kiko> none proposed that I know of. anyone have one?
<kiko> 3
<kiko> 2
<matsubara> the dupefinder was approved or not?
<kiko> matsubara, it was, last week
<kiko> matsubara, I updated the page. I believe. :)
<Rinchen> nope
<Rinchen> still there
<matsubara> "After discussion, the proposer should update this page, moving the tag to the approved or declined section"
<Rinchen> https://help.launchpad.net/TaggingLaunchpadBugs
<kiko> hmm
<kiko> will fix
<kiko> [TOPIC] Operations report (mthaddon/herb)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Operations report (mthaddon/herb)
<kiko> let's welcome herb to the first round he's on his own :)
<herb> Caching for feeds is done on prod and edge.
<herb> Cherry pick going in after the meeting.
<herb> No status update on capturing coredumps from PQM.
<herb> That's it from me unless there are any questions.
<kiko> herb, let me have a call with you later today so we can sort out the lxml coredump story, maybe we can do something simple.
<statik> hurrah for caching
<herb> kiko: ok
<kiko> herb, could we reuse the same caching for feeds for other bits of launchpad?
<herb> kiko: potentially, yes.
<statik> kiko: that was the plan I heard
<carlos> Rinchen: hmm, sorry, I told you about bug #201394 thinking on bug #200610
<ubotu> Bug 201394 on http://launchpad.net/bugs/201394 is private
<ubotu> Bug 200610 on http://launchpad.net/bugs/200610 is private
<kiko> herb, very cool. I'll try a HEAD later and see how it looks
<carlos> Rinchen:  bug #201394 is being handled by Jeroen
<ubotu> Bug 201394 on http://launchpad.net/bugs/201394 is private
<kiko> [TOPIC] DBA report (stub)
<MootBot> New Topic:  DBA report (stub)
<stub> I'll be doing this cycles DB patch reviews tomorrow as I've just realized it is week 2.
<stub> Nothing else thrilling to report.
<Rinchen> carlos, ok will follow up with him tomorrow.
<kiko> stub, PersonAuthSplit going to make it this time around?
 * kiko sighs
<kiko> [TOPIC] Sysadmin requests (Rinchen)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Sysadmin requests (Rinchen)
<stub> kiko: The spec has had feedback from jamesh. I scheduled it for two cycles in the future I think, but there will be a lot of fallout so don't know
<Rinchen> Hi! Is anyone blocked on an RT or have any that are becoming urgent?
<kiko> stub, wow, 2 cycles is pretty far down
<kiko> stub, not even 1.2.4?
<Rinchen> I should take this point to tell everyone that mootbot's hosting is going away and I'm working with the scribes team to find a new host for it.  We have a few ideas.  We cannot host it at Canonical.
<kiko> Rinchen, we could just host it at async, we have no standards
<Rinchen> kiko, brilliant
<kiko> [TOPIC] New packages required (salgado)
<MootBot> New Topic:  New packages required (salgado)
<salgado> if any of the branches you're working on right now  depends on any library which is not part of the launchpad-dependencies package, come talk to me ASAP.
<stub> kiko: Firstly we need to agree and sign off on it. We don't know how long that will take. After that, we can implement what is specced. Hopefully the scope won't have crept and the fallout in the test suite won't be huge and we can do it in a cycle.
<mwhudson> salgado: what happened to turbogears?
<kiko> cprov, all our soyuz dependencies are looking okay, r ight?
<cprov> kiko: yes, until we start doing package diff.
<salgado> mwhudson, I'm waiting for someone to approve making lp-deps require sqlobject as well
<kiko> cprov, do we need debdiff? we can require it sooner if you want.
<mwhudson> salgado: ok
<cprov> kiko: it I firmly believe will happen in 1.2.3 ... then we have to depend on 'devtools'
<kiko> salgado, mwhudson: won't it be better to wait for storm to roll out [potentially next month]?
<Rinchen> stub, who's on the hook to approve it?
<kiko> cprov, ask salgado then
<salgado> next month? really?
<cprov> `devscripts`, sorry
<kiko> salgado, yeah
<salgado> I don't see any problems in waiting
<cprov> salgado: shelve it in if you can, any version will be fine.
<kiko> salgado, mwhudson: if it doesn't make next month, we can reconsider
<salgado> cprov, please file a bug in the meta-lp-deps package
<cprov> salgado: sure
<stub> Rinchen: approval would be sabdfl in this case. Agreement from kiko, SteveA, jamesh, me, salgado, francis and I think some others (leonard?)
<kiko> jt1, carlos, danilos: anything going to be required for rosetta?
<carlos> not that I'm aware of
<kiko> cool
<Rinchen> stub, thanks.  Will you be driving that on your next call with sabdfl?  Just curious to see if I can help.
<danilos> kiko: yeah, we are good
<kiko> and BjornT, nothing for the watch stuff now right?
<kiko> thanks
<BjornT> kiko: no
<kiko> I assume thumper knows too, so let's move on
<kiko> [TOPIC] A top user-affecting issue (mrevell)
<stub> Rinchen: Yes. I need to discuss it with him even if the spec is in flux.
<MootBot> New Topic:  A top user-affecting issue (mrevell)
<kiko> my favorite section!
<mrevell> Hello Launchpadders!
<carlos> mrevell: hey! :-P
<kiko> yo matt
<mrevell> Ah, I hate to disappoint you kiko. This week I haven't seen any new recurring issues or particularly strking one-offs. However, I've had my head burried in work for the new user guide and new tour, along with a day on Bazaar work, so I apologise if I've missed something.
<schwuk> hello mrevell
<mrevell> :)
<mrevell> Has anyone else spotted something that they'd like to discuss right now?
<kiko> maybe one of the users present wants to speak up at this point? :)
<kiko> for one, /I/ use launchpad, and I think it's pretty slow over https.
<carlos> mrevell: I need to talk with you about a bug we found in Translations
<statik> hey, that affects me too
<danilos> carlos: there are no bugs in Translations
<kiko> funny thing, eh statik? :)
<carlos> but I think there is no many people seeing it
<mrevell> carlos: Cool
<mwhudson> launchpad-over-http would be awesome
<mrevell> carlos: I certainly see it
<kiko> what danilos said
<carlos> mrevell: ;-)
<mpt> What's the next step in implementing that?
<carlos> danilos: indeed
<mrevell> carlos: particularly with long membership lists and that;s even in London
<kiko> mpt, I think PersonAuthSplit is the next step. stub might be able to confirm!
<stub> For Launchpad over HTTP, IIRC we need the virtual hosts authenticating via OpenID
<stub> It is independant of AuthPersonSplit
<kiko> okay. so shipit moving out is the first logical step.
<kiko> salgado, stub: that's post 2.0 though, right?
<mpt> snap
 * stub shrugs
<flacoste> there is the issue of how to handle private content
<statik> stub: we could serve anonymous launchpad pages over http even sooner, right?
<stub> It has only been verbally discussed, so I guess so
<flacoste> we should refuse to server private content over HTTP
<thumper> like sending email addresses over HTTP?
<stub> statik: I don't see why not.
<flacoste> if spammer do sniffing to harvest email addresses, where is the world going
<kiko> me neither
<kiko> yeah
<kiko> https is our last barrier against spammers
<stub> flacoste: Hopefully that will end up in the too hard basket :)
<kiko> NEXT
<kiko> [TOPIC] Doc Team report (mrevell)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Doc Team report (mrevell)
<mrevell> Docs! This week I've sent a new teams section of the user guide for review to the team mailing list. I'm also putting the finishing touches to a projects section, which also explains how to use series, releases and milestones. I'll be sending that to the team list this week for your input.
<kiko> man mrevell types fast
<mrevell> Also, I'm working on a second and more polished draft of the new tour content, which I'll - again - be sending to the internal list for your review.
<mrevell> :)
<mrevell> There won't be a coming changes report this cycle as I haven't identified any changes that qualify. I've emailed each team lead to check they agree. Thanks to those of your who've replied so far!
<kiko> mrevell, the stuff you sent out this week was pretty cool
<mrevell> ah thanks kiko
<mrevell> I'll be speaking to each team lead early next week with regard to documentation changes and additions required for 1.2.3. However, if there's anything you're aware of right now, please feel free to mail or ping me for a chat.
<kiko> I've earmarked it in my inbox to review
<mrevell> Also, we have a new LaunchpadReleases page on the help wiki
<mrevell> which explains how we number our releases
<mrevell> and that'll come into its own after 1.2.3 is releases
<Rinchen> a nice code change I might add
<mrevell> er released
<kiko> oh, there's one thing I want to hijack this topic for in a moment.
<mrevell> and the new footer appears
<danilos> mrevell: there's one bit in translations that's coming up, but we can talk it over next week
<mrevell> danilos: Great
<mrevell> Sorry, please go ahead kiko
<kiko> team leads, note that you'll be called upon to help mrevell with documentation content (though it doesn't need to be you personally who writes it, and instead your team)
<kiko> mrevell is a magician and a tongue twister and a joyce of launchpad
<kiko> but there's too much application there for him to describe alone
<mrevell> My mother in law is called Joyce
<kiko> hah! so it's genetic
<mrevell> :)
<mrevell> Thanks to each of the team leads for your chats with me in London last week.
<mpt> And mrevell's a smart guy, but if the stuff he writes is stuff he can work out for himself, then other Launchpad users will be able to work out the same stuff for themselves, so it won't be useful
<kiko> flacoste, BjornT, jt1, thumper, me, statik beware
<sinzui> I expect mrevell to use many nonces in his documentation
<mrevell> sinzui: Do you know what nonce means in the UK?
<gmb> ...
<sinzui> mrevell: I DO!
<mrevell> oh
<kiko> [TOPIC] canonical_url() stuff
<MootBot> New Topic:  canonical_url() stuff
<mrevell> Well, yes, I'd be very appreciative of further input. It doesn't have to be fancy, I cnanpolish
<mrevell> er
<thumper> :)
<stub> A true joyce
<gmb> fail.
<mrevell> :)
<kiko> abentley, master bzr ninja, and flacoste, master ninja of, well, all things non-bzr have brought upon us a new scourge
<kiko> it is called canonical_url(..., view_name="foo")
<kiko> you're supposed to use it instead of using string addition
<kiko> so where you have
<abentley> It is a fluffy and friendly scourge.
<kiko> canonical_url(person) + "/+edit"
<kiko> you should instead be doing
<kiko> canonical_url(person, view_name="+edit")
<kiko> I have a branch which fixes up all our browser code to use it
<kiko> once that's landed, try and keep our code free of the '/+' combination
<kiko> thanks!
<mpt> What does this fix?
<danilos> any nice addition for page templates as well?
<kiko> well
<kiko> since mpt asks
<kiko> it validates that the page actually exists
<mwhudson> does it check that the view is registered?
<mpt> aha
<mwhudson> ah, goodie
<kiko> if you do canonical_url(person) + "/+edti"
<mpt> or + "/+emailaddress"
<kiko> you might not notice it unless you explicitly test for that URL in the output
<kiko> using view_name ensures it's sane
<abentley> Also, it can be more convenient to use in situations where you may or may not have a view_name passed in.
<kiko> there are some corner cases where it can't be used (traverse in Navigation classes being the most obvious)
<kiko> but raise those as issues with flacoste and me and we'll see what we can do
<kiko> ah!
<kiko> I was trying to remember.
<kiko> doctests need to set up requests to actually be able to call code which uses this
<kiko> to do this, just supply a request as the second argument to login()
<kiko> so login(ANONYMOUS, LaunchpadTestRequest())
<kiko> for instance.
<kiko> [TOPIC] Blockers
<MootBot> New Topic:  Blockers
<kiko> knock yourself out :)
<flacoste> Foundations: not blocked
<mwhudson> kiko: does it do security checking?
<cprov> Soyuz: not blocked
<thumper> Code: not blocked
 * kiko not blocked
<Rinchen> Releases Team: Not blocked.
<carlos> Translations: not blocked
<adeuring> hwdb: partially (lxml segfault), but things are moving
<BjornT> Bugs: not blocked
<kiko> mwhudson, no, I think it just checks if the view is registered, not that it's viewable.
<kiko> mwhudson, we could do that change later, and it's interesting, but it has consequences
<kiko> adeuring, thanks for raising that.
<statik> lpcomm: not blocked
<abentley> mwhudson: eg determine whether the user can actually retrieve the url?  No, but /fmt:link does.
<stub> mwhudson: Just because the user doesn't have permission to a link doesn't mean they won't have permission after Launchpad guides them through login
<kiko> thanks statik
<kiko> abentley, see stub's comment
<kiko> we usually +login-redirect people
<mwhudson> stub: that's a fair point
<kiko> if the user /is/ logged in though..
<kiko> okay okay
<kiko> [TOPIC] PQM bustage
<MootBot> New Topic:  PQM bustage
<kiko> PQM test-running was broken in jml's latest landing, but herb has sorted it out magically and we're about to put the cherry on top of that cake
<kiko> sorry for people inconvenienced, requeue your branches, you know who you are
<kiko> thumper and jml can have fun trying to debug that! :)
<kiko> and
<kiko> #endmeeting
<mwhudson> that branch of jml's is cursed, i think
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 18:48.
<statik> is there anything specific that I should watch out for in future reviews or landings?
<kiko> Thank you all for attending this week's Launchpad Developer Meeting. See the channel topic for the location of the logs.
<bac> thanks kiko
<mrevell> Thanks kiko, thanks everyone!
<kiko> statik, regarding the use of canonical_url()?
<mpt> carlos, did you receive my message about the translations page?
<carlos> thanks guys
<statik> kiko: regarding wierd PQM bustage
<carlos> mpt: yeah
<mpt> ok
<cprov> thanks, guys
<kiko> statik, hah, not really. jml's branch is a mystery. :-(
<statik> ok, cool
<carlos> mpt: I think I have the infrastructure ready, I will start migrating translations page tomorrow
 * cprov runs ... will be back in 2 hours.
<kiko> statik, I expect thumper or jml will email us saying what's up when they discover it.
<kiko> mwhudson, yeah, maybe you're right
<mwhudson> anyway, thanks kiko
 * mwhudson goes to caffinate
<kiko> thanks mwhudson
#launchpad-meeting 2009-03-11
<barry> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 09:00. The chair is barry.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<barry> hello everyone and welcome to this week's ameu reviewer's meeting.  who's here today?
<gmb> me
<gary_poster> me
<sinzui> ma
<sinzui> ma
<mars> me
<gary_poster> :-)
<sinzui> where is my e
<sinzui> me
<noodles775> moi
<allenap> me
<mars> noodles775, you need to step one country to the right
<noodles775> mars: ah, wrong one... :/
<barry> bac: ping
<bac> argh
<bac> me
<barry> bigjools, cprov, danilo_ ping
<barry> intellectronica: ping
<intellectronica> me
<barry> rockstar: ping
<barry> salgado: ping
<salgado> me!
<barry> today's a light day, so let's start off with the fun stuff
<cprov> me
<flacoste> me
<barry> [TOPIC] agenda
<MootBot> New Topic:  agenda
<barry>  * Roll call
<barry>  * Peanut gallery (anything not on the agenda)
<barry>  * Mentoring update
<barry>  * Action items
<barry> [TOPIC]  * Peanut gallery (anything not on the agenda)
<MootBot> New Topic:   * Peanut gallery (anything not on the agenda)
<danilo_> me
<barry> does anybody have any reviewy type stuff they want to bring up that's not on the agenda?
<sinzui> me
<barry> sinzui: the floor is yours
<sinzui> bac discovered that there were a few places in our templates where we were making insane links.
<sinzui> Bad
<sinzui>     <a tal:content="structure person/fmt:link" />
<sinzui>     becomes
<sinzui>     <a><a href="...">text</a></a>
<sinzui> Good
<sinzui>     <a tal:replace="structure person/fmt:link" />
<sinzui>     becomes
<sinzui>     <a href="...">text</a>
<sinzui> When reviewing tal, please verify anything that uses `structure` works in the containing elements.
<barry> that's wacky
<mars> sinzui, would html-tidy catch that?
<sinzui> mars yes
<gary_poster> after rendering, yes, but not before rendering (in our templates)
<mars> yep, of course
<sinzui> mars: any HTML validator can see that is not permitted
<mars> not that we have any good or automated way to run said validator...
<bac> i have a branch that attempt to ferret them all out.  even our 'featured projects' listing on the front page had the problem.
<flacoste> good catch sinzui and bac
<barry> bac: by visual inspection or through some tool?
<bac> well, when sinzui says "bac discovered" he means "bac repeated the problem flagrantly" such that sinzui discovered it.
<mars> what if we made the doctest runner do HTML validation on page open?
<gary_poster> :-)
<bac> barry: just grep and examing them all
<sinzui> barry 'content="structure .*link' catches most of them
<barry> mars: interesting idea, but i'm affraid it would slow things down alot
<sinzui> of course we can write tal on multiple lines
<gary_poster> [blue sky] we could have a nightly buildbot for what mars suggests
<mars> barry, we could bind it to 'make check'
<sinzui> mars: too slow, as is updating find_main_content
<mars> barry, since we'll have to do so for windmill tests anyway
<mars> which are even slower
<sinzui> Our link checker could take on the extra work. or...
<barry> mars: yeah
<mars> sinzui, yes, that's another good hook point
<sinzui>     >>> view = create_initialized_view(person, '+index', principle=person)
<sinzui>     >>> is_valid_html(view.render())
<sinzui>     True
<mars> sinzui, but the link-checker isn't under developer control
<mars> is it?
<bac> gary_poster: +1  -- a periodic scan should be enough to trap infrequent offenders
<mars> at least I could do ./test.py --validate-markup or something
<barry> sinzui: i think i like that approach best.  cons: it's up to the dev to add the check, pros: you can decide to check only when you think it's necessary
<barry> does someone want to take this on as an action item?
<flacoste> i think the buldbot story is better
<flacoste> here
<bac> cons: it slows down our tests
<flacoste> doesn't slow down the test suite
<flacoste> it's not a big problem
<flacoste> i mean this has been broken for long and didn't cause any problems
<flacoste> invalid markup is ugly, but not a show-stoppers
<flacoste> thanks to the way browsers are implemented
<barry> we don't need to solve it here, but i'd like someone to own it and offer some options
<mars> flacoste, does our build process have provisions or the concept of warnings?
<flacoste> it sounds like a foundations issue
<flacoste> but it would be a very low priority to me
<flacoste> so no point putting it down as an actino
<barry> flacoste: okay
<barry> thanks.  any other topics not on the agenda?
<barry> [TOPIC] mentoring update
<MootBot> New Topic:  mentoring update
<barry> any mentor or mentat updates today?
<rockstar> me
<barry> rockstar: you don't have a mentoring update, right?
<rockstar> No, I'm just screwed by DST again.
<barry> [TOPIC] action items
<MootBot> New Topic:  action items
<barry>  * gary to add `getStore()` as an alias for `_get_store()`
<barry> gary_poster: ^^
<flacoste> barry: i still suck at mine, but do keep it open, i plan to suck less
<flacoste> see, i'm pro-active :-)
<barry> flacoste: that's a start! :)
<barry>  * gary will check to see if there's a bug open for adding a hook to `bzr send`, and submit one if there isn't
<barry> gary_poster: ^^
<barry>  * bigjools to take crack at helper functions for backpatching schemas to avoid circular imports
<barry>  * barry to add `field_id` to coding guideline
<barry>  * barry to update guidelines to never call `_foo()` methods from outside a class
<barry>  * barry to add `pretty()` functions to reviewers docs
<barry> i actually do NOT suck today!  i did all three of these :)
<bigjools> goddamn it and the time changes
 * bigjools sucks at helper functions AND timekeeping
<barry> no worries
<barry> anyway, that's all i have today.  anything else going on?
<barry> 5
<rockstar> I have something
<barry> rockstar: go ahead
<rockstar> It looks like sinzui already quoted to code above...
<rockstar> I was reviewing a branch of sinzui's where he was using a doctest to test a view's API.
<rockstar> Now, I understand that our team has an unusual fetish for doctests, but I think that if we're doing something where we can use unittests, we should use them.
<flacoste> hmm
 * mars sees the testing debate from the ML creeping in...
<flacoste> that's a controversial topic
<flacoste> rockstar: what are the arguments?
<barry> i might make the counter argument :)
<flacoste> yeah
<sinzui> Shall we wall read the 2008 June, July debate.
<rockstar> doctests are good for telling a user story, but if we're just testing the methods of a view, why not use what unittests for what they were made for?
<sinzui> I believe thumper wanted a paintball battle to decide the matter
<flacoste> lol
<barry> sinzui: M-x paintball
<flacoste> rockstar: we have usually refrained from enforcing a policy there
<flacoste> let developers choose which technology they prefer here
<barry> flacoste: right.  i think that still works as a policy
<rockstar> flacoste, and I think that leads to a mess.
<intellectronica> i think that unless we lose coverage because of that, we should allow teams to choose what format they prefer
<intellectronica> for individuals to choose is already a bit extreme
<rockstar> If I change a view, I can't easily discern where the hell the test is that I need to edit.
<rockstar> Is it it doc?  Is it in browser/tests?
<sinzui> I'm agnostic on the issue. Since all the registry view tests are in doctest, I wan to add to them instead of storing two kinds of tests in two areas
<barry> rockstar: conversely without a doctest if i'm trying to learn how a view works, it's much more difficult to discern that from its docstrings and unittest
<rockstar> barry, why can't you look at the unittest?  You'll be doing essentially the same thing.
<sinzui> rockstar: doctests do not normally explain WHY the view does soemthing
<barry> rockstar: unittests lack the narrative that sets the context of the api
<mars> right
<flacoste> rockstar finding the tests is different than the format
<bigjools> unittests are superior ways of testing, I'm pretty tired of having a doctest halt when one of its tests fails
<barry> the "ties it all together" bits
<flacoste> it should be browser/tests
<flacoste> whatever the format
<flacoste> unless it's an API description
<flacoste> and even then
<flacoste> i'm starting the Launchpad-tree-apocalypse today
<bigjools>  /o\
 * sinzui hand flacoste the fuel and a torch
<rockstar> I think mixing and matching tests is going to bite us one of these days.
<flacoste> that will makes things clearer for finding stuff and tests
<flacoste> for answers
<flacoste> and registry will they their apocalyspe next week
<flacoste> gary_poster, zope has a lot of experience in that area
 * sinzui is bringing marshmallows.
<flacoste> anything to share here?
<rockstar> Anytime you say "In this folder, you might find unittests or doctests" it makes me think that one or the other is being misused.
<gary_poster_> flacoste: sorry, having connectivity issues and buildbot issues simultaneously
<barry> rockstar: personally, i'd like to see doctests in a 'docs' directory
<barry> sanitizing our testing infrastructure is definitely on the list of monsters to pitchfork
<rockstar> barry, personally, I'd like to see the doctests use testbrowser to tell a user story, or unittests to test a unit.
<flacoste> barry: well, if it's docs, it belongs in a docs directory
<flacoste> but many doctest are not docs
<barry> rockstar: what about documentation for internal components and subsystems?
<intellectronica> rockstar: do you never use the doctests to learn about functionality? i often do, and i think that if we don't have doctests, we won't have documentation at all
<barry> flacoste: yes, that's a problem :)
<flacoste> docs is about API description
<flacoste> well, it's not
<rockstar> flacoste, isn't that the benefit of doctests?  They are docs AND they are tests?
<sinzui> rockstar: model/components need to be doctests because their are the develop documentation.
<flacoste> well
<flacoste> i don't think a view is an API
<flacoste> interesting to document
<flacoste> most of them aren't
<flacoste> a few might be
<flacoste> but they are the exception
<rockstar> flacoste, a view has an API.
<flacoste> well, not really
<flacoste> the only API is __call__
<flacoste> which renders the view
<flacoste> that's it
<mars> flacoste, and the properties
<flacoste> no
<rockstar> intellectronica, I look at unittests all the time to learn about functionality.
<flacoste> well, maybe
<barry> rockstar: i'm thinking about the multistep view i just refactored.  i think documentation for it is essential so that others can understand how to reuse it.
<flacoste> i would argue that the properties are internal implementation details
<gary_poster_> My thoughts on this: (1) doctest for unittest purpose is emacs vs. vi IMO/IME.  I think that using doctest for unittest purposes works well.  Other people disagree.  I tend to find that people think about these things differently.  I can acknowledge the points people make (like bigjools, IRT doctests failing at the beginning) but I prefer doctests.
<gary_poster_> (2) I would much prefer it if our tests were closer to the pertinent code
<flacoste> i agree with both points
<gary_poster_> that appears to be (part of) the topic I lost while I was dealing with various issues
<rockstar> gary_poster, +1 on (2)
<flacoste> and my apocalyspe branch will improve 2
<mars> flacoste, rockstar, maybe reorganize the tree, and wait and see?
 * flacoste can't spell apocalypse
<mars> you can run more experiments, say with the view tests, after
<barry> flacoste: maybe that should be apocalisp?
<flacoste> lol
<gary_poster_> :-)
<mars> a smaller sandbox will make experimenting on a per-team basis easier
<rockstar> mars, I don't think that's the answer.
<sinzui> mars: I think teams have already made their decision
<bigjools> I see doctests primarily as documentation that carry examples, it's easy to abuse them to be full-blown tests
<barry> mars: yes, and it will make things much more discoverable and comprehensible
<rockstar> The per-team thing just makes things messier. That's why it's good to have cross-team-reviews
<sinzui> I think that teams that will not release their code are using unittests.
<rockstar> sinzui, :(
<intellectronica> rockstar: well, not really per-team. what i meant, at least, is that the division should be thematic, not personal
<barry> i think it's just too controversial to mandate at this point.  i agree with gary that it feels like mandating vi or emacs
<rockstar> intellectronica, depending on the "theme" I agree with you.
<bac> perhaps emacs users could use doctests...
<gary_poster> :-)
<barry> i personally think that both doctests and unittests have their place, both have positives... and negatives
<rockstar> barry, I don't see why.  I think they serve two different purposes.  It's like mandating motor oil v. beer.
<mars> rockstar, yuck
<gary_poster> rockstar: right, but...other people disagree with you :-)
<gary_poster> that's the point
<barry> rockstar: is that: unittests are greasy and icky but good for your motor, while doctests are fun, festive and easy to consume?
<sinzui> I think the crucial point that rockstar is making is that to test a class of problems, we should use one kind of test so that we know where and how to test it.
<cprov> barry: lol
<rockstar> sinzui, yes!  Thank you!
<sinzui> My concern is that if I switch to unittest, I then have lots of tests in doctest
<sinzui> insert old in the above sentece somewhere
<bigjools> do we agree that doctests are not tests, they're documentation?
<gary_poster> no
<rockstar> bigjools, no
<gmb> not as we use them atm.
<barry> no
<cprov> no
<flacoste> doctests are tests
<bigjools> because I remember a mail thread from 2 years ago
<barry> it's not either or. doctests are documentation /first/ but they are tests too
<rockstar> I think doctests are great at telling a story about a user experience, and asserting that the story actually works with code.
<bigjools> that said they are not tests
<flacoste> barry: i would even argue that some doctests are not even doc first and that's fine too
<bigjools> and that writing words like "should" are not acceptable
<barry> s/user experience/developer experience/
<intellectronica> doctests CAN be tests. unit tests CAN'T be documentation
 * noodles775 suddenly realizes why the email discussion the other day stopped so quickly...
<bigjools> barry: right, testable documentation
<barry> intellectronica: i agree with that statement (flacoste's too)
<rockstar> barry, why would there need to be a story about developer experience.  "The developer can instantiate this class, and then you have these functions..."
<gmb> The problem comes with - to pick an example at random - things like doc/externalbugtracker-comment-pushing.txt
<gmb> In which we create a load of mock objects in the doctest in order to be able to run the tests.
<gmb> That seems unit-testy.
<sinzui> bigjools: s/should/can|expected|required/
<barry> rockstar: ever tried to understand how a class is supposed to be used by pydoctor api reference?  it sucks.  unittests are the same
<bigjools> sinzui: "will"
<intellectronica> gmb: actually, i think that's a good example to the contrary. as someone who doesn't know that system as good as you, i really benefit from having documentation whenever i need to work on it
<barry> rockstar: otoh, once you understand how a class is to be used, api reference is great
<sinzui> bigjools: +1
<bigjools> doctests are statements of intent
<rockstar> I would like to withdraw my request to use unittest to test units.  It seems that it's not getting anywhere.
<sinzui> The meeting is getting close the the end. I just read unit-testies
<gmb> intellectronica: Hmm, okay. Then I'd argue that the mock objects should at least be factored out into ftests/somethingorother for cleanliness.
<bigjools> sinzui: lol
<barry> sinzui: on that note...
<gary_poster> fwiw, footnotes can help with this
<intellectronica> rockstar: gracious of you. as a reviewer, you still have the option of asking that something be unit tested if you think it makes more sense
<barry> i propose we close the meeting for today and schedule a mud wrasslin' contest to settle this once and for all
<barry> at all hands
<gary_poster> and fwiw, this example has been pointed to in the past by others as a reasonable unit test/doc test combo: http://svn.zope.org/zc.queue/trunk/src/zc/queue/queue.txt?view=auto
<rockstar> intellectronica, as a reviewer, I don't think that makes a lot of sense if there isn't really a standard.  :/
<gary_poster> (I wrote it, so this the importance of "by others")
<gary_poster> I will propose footnotes at another mtg :-)
<barry> okay, thanks everyone for a spirited debate!
<barry> apologies for going over.  i'm sure we'll continue this at another time
<barry> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 09:50.
<intellectronica> thanks barry
<bigjools> barry: https://launchpad.canonical.com/TestsStyleGuide#Style%20to%20Avoid
 * mars packs the pitchfork away for another day
<bigjools> "A very important consideration is that documentation tests are really documentation that happens to be testable."
<barry> bigjools: couldn't agree more!
<bigjools> so why did everyone disagree with me? :)
 * barry -> #launchpad-code
<gmb> bigjools: Because you're you :)
<bigjools> figures
#launchpad-meeting 2009-03-12
<matsubara> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 10:00. The chair is matsubara.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<matsubara> Welcome to this week's Launchpad Production Meeting. For the next 45 minutes or so, we'll be coordinating the resolution of specific Launchpad bugs and issues.
<matsubara> [TOPIC] Roll Call
<MootBot> New Topic:  Roll Call
<sinzui> me
<matsubara> Not on the Launchpad Dev team? Welcome! Come "me" with the rest of us!
<bigjools> me
<herb> me
<stub> me
<henninge> meeee
<Ursinha> me
<matsubara> rockstar: hi
<rockstar> me
<matsubara> intellectronica: hi
<intellectronica> me
<matsubara> all right. flacoste can join later
<matsubara> [TOPIC] Agenda
<MootBot> New Topic:  Agenda
<matsubara>  * Actions from last meeting
<matsubara>  * Oops report & Critical Bugs
<matsubara>  * Operations report (mthaddon/herb/spm)
<matsubara>  * DBA report (stub)
<matsubara> [TOPIC] * Actions from last meeting
<MootBot> New Topic:  * Actions from last meeting
<matsubara>   * matsubara to chase rockstar about OOPS-1152XMLP1
<matsubara>     * talked to mwhudson about this one and filed bug 338535
<matsubara>   * Ursinha to talk to rockstar about https://lp-oops.canonical.com/oops.py/?oopsid=OOPS-1159EA69
<matsubara>   * Ursinha to file a bug about OOPS-1160ED105 and assign to intellectronica
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 338535 in launchpad-bazaar "OOPS creating a branch for a private team" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/338535
<matsubara>     * done: 337811
<matsubara>   * matsubara to chase the code guys about bug 337942
<matsubara>     * talked to thumper about this one. Importance was lowered and explained in the bug report.
<ubottu> Bug 337942 on http://launchpad.net/bugs/337942 is private
<Ursinha> hey rockstar :)
<Ursinha> can you take a look on that oops?
<rockstar> Hi Ursinha
<rockstar> Ursinha, that looks like a Soyuz oops.
<matsubara> soyuz?
<Ursinha> rockstar: huh?
<rockstar> NoSuchDistroSeries: No such distribution series: 'totem'.
<bigjools> it looks like source package branches?
<Ursinha> bigjools: do you agree with rockstar?
<rockstar> Oh, huh.  Looking at the traceback, it's doing something with the XML-RPC server.
<bigjools> Ursinha: no
<Ursinha> rockstar: :)
<rockstar> So that might be a code thing after all...
<rockstar> I would say that's a relatively low priority, since source package branches aren't completely working.  I'll talk to jml about it.
<Ursinha> rockstar: thanks. Want me to file a bug?
<matsubara> [action] Ursinha to file a bug about OOPS-1159EA69
<rockstar> Ursinha, yes please.
<MootBot> ACTION received:  Ursinha to file a bug about OOPS-1159EA69
<Ursinha> thanks rockstar
<matsubara> all right. thanks rockstar, Ursinha
<matsubara> [TOPIC] * Oops report & Critical Bugs
<MootBot> New Topic:  * Oops report & Critical Bugs
<Ursinha> one issue for bugs: intellectronica, https://lp-oops.canonical.com/oops.py/?oopsid=OOPS-1166F631
<ubottu> https://devpad.canonical.com/~jamesh/oops.cgi/1166F631
 * Ursinha wonders if the internet is off again
<intellectronica> haven't seen anything like this before. will investigate
<intellectronica> Ursinha: you gonna file a bug, or should i?
<Ursinha> thanks intellectronica
<Ursinha> intellectronica: I will
<matsubara> [action] Ursinha to file a bug about OOPS-1166F631 and assign to intellectronica
<ubottu> https://devpad.canonical.com/~jamesh/oops.cgi/1166F631
<MootBot> ACTION received:  Ursinha to file a bug about OOPS-1166F631 and assign to intellectronica
<ubottu> https://devpad.canonical.com/~jamesh/oops.cgi/1166F631
<intellectronica> oh, it's some problem working with data from apport
<rockstar> Someone needs to teach ubottu about the new OOPS url.
<matsubara> intellectronica: looks like apport data isn't sending the correct headers
<intellectronica> yes
<matsubara> all right. thanks intellectronica
<matsubara> we have 1 critical bug which is in progress already.
<matsubara> bug 341251
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 341251 in launchpad-foundations "Semantics of shortlist was changed, without making sure the callsites expect it" [Critical,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/341251
<intellectronica> or that our parsing of the headers is incorrect
<Ursinha> right, that's all from me
<matsubara> ok. thanks Ursinha
<matsubara> [TOPIC] * Operations report (mthaddon/herb/spm)
<MootBot> New Topic:  * Operations report (mthaddon/herb/spm)
<herb> 2009-03-10 - Cherry picked r7907 to the scripts server to fix bug #300634.
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 300634 in malone "Bug watches aren't getting updated in an ordered fashion" [High,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/300634
<herb> Bug #156453 and bug #118625 continue to be a daily problem.
<herb> Bug #260171 is still causing a problem every few days.
<herb> There are currently 3 pending cherry picks, two of which need approval.
<sinzui> matsubara: bugs 341085, 341117 landed, but misses the edge update
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 156453 in loggerhead "production loggerhead branch leaks memory" [Critical,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/156453
<ubottu> Error: Could not parse data returned by Launchpad: The read operation timed out (https://launchpad.net/bugs/118625/+text)
<ubottu> Error: Could not parse data returned by Launchpad: The read operation timed out (https://launchpad.net/bugs/260171/+text)
<ubottu> Error: Could not parse data returned by Launchpad: The read operation timed out (https://launchpad.net/bugs/341085/+text)
<ubottu> Error: Could not parse data returned by Launchpad: The read operation timed out (https://launchpad.net/bugs/341117/+text)
<intellectronica> whoops
<Ursinha> ouch
<intellectronica> ubottu should really start using the api
<ubottu> Error: I am only a bot, please don't think I'm intelligent :)
 * sinzui thinks those bugs are private
<matsubara> sinzui: thanks for fixing it so quickly.
<herb> at least one of them is.
<matsubara> sinzui: are we going to need a cp for those?
<sinzui> matsubara: they could be, I'm inclined to push for it since the next release on on April 1
<matsubara> [action] sinzui to request CP for bugs 341085 and 341117
<ubottu> Bug 341085 on http://launchpad.net/bugs/341085 is private
<MootBot> ACTION received:  sinzui to request CP for bugs 341085 and 341117
<ubottu> Bug 341085 on http://launchpad.net/bugs/341085 is private
<matsubara> hey rockstar, any news about the loggerhead work that would make the LOSAs happier?
<rockstar> matsubara, well, nothing concrete.
<matsubara> :-(
<rockstar> Every time we commit something, we *think* it'll fix it, but it never completely fixes it.
<rockstar> We are planning on chasing down the right people at PyCon to give us some definitive answers.
<rockstar> Profiling/debugging an application like this isn't trivial, so we're kinda doing our best with the voodoo we have.
<matsubara> rockstar: last meeting, I think stub suggested contracting someone to look at those problems. did you consider that?
<rockstar> matsubara, probably not.
<matsubara> rockstar: bring it up with the Code team. see what they think about it
<matsubara> anyway, let's move on.
<matsubara> thanks rockstar and herb
<matsubara> [TOPIC] * DBA report (stub)
<MootBot> New Topic:  * DBA report (stub)
<herb> thanks matsubara, rockstar
<stub> Database maintenance tools are being updated to work with multiple slaves, including bringing them up and dropping them. The new slave should be live early next week.
<stub> Nothing else to report.
<matsubara> I forgot one thing, herb
<matsubara> herb: staging is running in its new hardware now, right?
<herb> the staging db is running on it's new hardware, yes.
<herb> s/it's/its/
<matsubara> ok, cool!
<matsubara> thanks stub, herb
<matsubara> anything else before I close?
<matsubara> Thank you all for attending this week's Launchpad Production Meeting. See the channel topic for the location of the logs.
<matsubara> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 10:23.
<bigjools> thanks matsubara
<intellectronica> thanks matsubara
<Ursinha> thanks matsubara
<Ursinha> intellectronica: /11
<matsubara> you're welcome
<Ursinha> intellectronica: sorry, bug 341766
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 341766 in malone "AttributeError OOPS when receiving data from apport on +filebug" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/341766
<intellectronica> Ursinha: never saw that one before
<Ursinha> :)
<Ursinha> intellectronica: irssi fail
<intellectronica> ah, of course :)
<intellectronica> Ursinha: thanks
<intellectronica> Ursinha: b.t.w have we seen this oops many times, or just this single instance?
<intellectronica> i'm asking so that i can determine the importance
<Ursinha> intellectronica: I've seen this one a few times a day
<intellectronica> really? wow, that's bad. i wonder if apport changed
<intellectronica> maybe it changed it's a jaunty/apport bug?
<Ursinha> hmm, worth more checking
<Ursinha> intellectronica: I don't think it's a apport change, because I guess there would be a lot more it that was the case, no?
<intellectronica> Ursinha: don't know. if it's a very recent change, then maybe not many people have that version
<matsubara> Ursinha: https://dev.launchpad.net/LaunchpadBugTags
<Ursinha> matsubara: thanks
<intellectronica> Ursinha: the malone code we're looking at hasn't changed in a long long time
<Ursinha> intellectronica: hmmm, maybe. I'm using jaunty and already "reported" many incidents
<Ursinha> didn't hit any problems so far
<matsubara> Ursinha, intellectronica: could be some specific error report triggering the error. Are all oopses caused by the same person?
 * Ursinha looks
<intellectronica> is there now way to get the username from the oops report?
<intellectronica> i only see the full name and db id
<Ursinha> intellectronica: indeed
<Ursinha> intellectronica: I'll open a bug about it and matsubara will check
<intellectronica> anyway, given that the user is not member of any team, i would guess that it's probably not the case that he's using a super latest version of apport
<Ursinha> intellectronica: I lied, I saw a few occurrences but not daily
<Ursinha> intellectronica: do you want to see the oopses?
<Ursinha> I'll append them to the bug report
<intellectronica> Ursinha: yes, that would be great
<Ursinha> intellectronica: I finally managed to convince my internet to edit the bug 341766
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 341766 in malone "AttributeError OOPS when receiving data from apport on +filebug" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/341766
<Ursinha> I placed there all oopses I could find
<Ursinha> this year
<intellectronica> Ursinha: thanks muchly!
<Ursinha> intellectronica: my pleasure! :)
<intellectronica> oh, were there ones from previous years?
<intellectronica> so, basically, this isn't a very recent thing?
<Ursinha> yes, but very rare
<Ursinha> unfortunately not :(
<Ursinha> intellectronica: talking about apport, another one, but this is quite frequent: bug 329908
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 329908 in malone "DownloadFailed OOPS when reporting a bug with apport" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/329908
<intellectronica> Ursinha: happy days
#launchpad-meeting 2010-03-17
<bac> hello
<bac> the reviewers meeting has always been scheduled for 1500UTC...so that is in one hour.  US people who are here now you're early!
<deryck> gah!
<deryck> hello anyway bac :-)
<bac> hi deryck!
 * deryck really wants a show-relative-to-UTC option in Google calendar
<salgado> bac, where's the agenda for today's meeting?
<bac> salgado: regular place: https://dev.launchpad.net/ReviewerMeetingAgenda
<salgado> oh, right, I was searching for reviewersmeeting
<salgado> thanks bac
<bac> np
<bac> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 10:00. The chair is bac.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<bac> hi and (finally) welcome to the AMEU reviewers meeting
<bac> who is here today?
<salgado> me!
<bac> hi salgado
<bac> anyone else around?
<allenap> me
<gary_poster> me
<gary_poster> sending out call to foundations...
<bac> sinzui, EdwinGrubbs, abentley, adeuring, BjornT, danilos, mars: ping
<bac> thanks gary_poster
<sinzui> me
<danilos> me
<danilos> :)
<abentley> me
<adeuring> me
<EdwinGrubbs> me
<leonardr> me
<bac> gmb: ping
<gmb> me
<gmb> bac: Sorry, OTP...
<bac> gmb: perhaps you can follow with one eye
<gmb> bac: Am now NOTP, so it's okay :(
<gmb> :)
<mars> me!
 * gmb is happy to be here, honest
<bac> [topic] agenda
<MootBot> New Topic:  agenda
<bac> * Roll call
<bac>  * Agenda
<bac>  * Outstanding actions
<bac>  * New topics
<bac>  * Peanut gallery
<bac> [topic] outstanding actions
<MootBot> New Topic:  outstanding actions
<bac> so let's see if we've made any progress
<bac> [topic] salgado to update the wiki page to encourage reviews with sufficient context.
<MootBot> New Topic:  salgado to update the wiki page to encourage reviews with sufficient context.
<salgado> I did it!
<salgado> finally
<bac> \o/
<bac> [topic] leonardr to create an example for automated lplib tests in the launchpad tree.  (revisit 17-Mar).
<MootBot> New Topic:  leonardr to create an example for automated lplib tests in the launchpad tree.  (revisit 17-Mar).
<leonardr> i'm about to start work on that
<bac> leonardr you may not even know this was a topic we've been tracking.  gary_poster put you down for it
<leonardr> yes, he and i have been talking about it
<bac> leonardr: cool.  when do you think you might have something?
<leonardr> bac: hopefully by the end of the week
<leonardr> but it shouldn't take long in any event
<bac> leonardr: great.  i'll leave it as an item for next week then
<bac> [topic] bac to seek opinion of IS and Legal wrt community reviewers and committers. (done 5-Mar, no response from legal).
<MootBot> New Topic:  bac to seek opinion of IS and Legal wrt community reviewers and committers. (done 5-Mar, no response from legal).
<leonardr> ok
<bac> as indicated i sent an email to our two legal folks and elmo a while back.
<bac> i got a response from elmo but not the lawyers.  i'll talk to andrew on IRC and see when he will respond.
<bac> at that point i'll share the input and we can revisit the topic from our perspective
<bac> [topic] bac to update wiki re: interim status of community reviewers and committers
<MootBot> New Topic:  bac to update wiki re: interim status of community reviewers and committers
 * bac fail
<bac> [topic] rockstar to update bugs to reflect new naming convention and will update the style guide
<MootBot> New Topic:  rockstar to update bugs to reflect new naming convention and will update the style guide
<bac> i don't think rockstar is here today
<bac> did anyone see the bugs created?
<bac> we'll carry it over until paul is here
<bac> [topic] mars to discuss UI reviewers team on UI call
<MootBot> New Topic:  mars to discuss UI reviewers team on UI call
<abentley> bac, he usually attends the other meeting.
<mars> bac, cone
<mars> done
<bac> mars: what was the outcome?
<bac> abentley: yeah, but i invited him to this one today.  perhaps he didn't get my email in time.
<mars> bac, rockstar is going to set up the UI reviewers team this week
<bac> [action] rockstar to set up UI reviewers team in LP
<MootBot> ACTION received:  rockstar to set up UI reviewers team in LP
<bac> mars: thanks
<mars> bac, no need for that, we already have an item in the UI call :)
<mars> np
<bac> [topic] peanut gallery
<MootBot> New Topic:  peanut gallery
<bac> any one have an unlisted topic for discussion?
<gmb> Me.
<bac> go graham
<gmb> I'd like to rotate off on-call reviewing for a cycle, maybe two, and I'm wondering if we have a process for dealing with that. Should I just canvas for someone to take over my Tuesday EU slot?
<bac> gmb:  we've had people do it in the past
<bac> gmb: in fact, i think i originally proposed it but then never got around to taking a leave
<gmb> Okay.
<gmb> In that case, any volunteers for Tuesday EU ? :)
 * bac looks for the schedule page on the wiki
<bac> https://dev.launchpad.net/ReviewerSchedule
<gmb> Aha.
<bac> so we have double on M, W, and Th
 * bac would (selfishly) really like to have someone in EU on Tuesday...
<bac> gmb: why don't you look around for the rest of this cycle and see if you can bribe someone
<bac> i have an item
<gmb> bac: Okay; however I'm sprinting next week and unavailable the week after, so I'll try to sort something out sooner.
<bac> gmb: ok
<bac> this week the US moved to daylight savings time.  the UK does so in two weeks.  would we like to move the meeting back to 1400UTC?  would that be a hardship for anyone?  jtv says it is better for him.
<bac> any one have an opinion or is 1500UTC good?
<gmb> 1400UTC works, I think
<gmb> No objections here.
<bac> salgado: does it affect you badly?
<salgado> nope
<bac> ok, let's move it to 1400UTC starting next week.
<bac> anything else?
<bac> 3...
<bac> 2...
<bac> 1...
<bac> have a great day.  thanks for coming.
<bac> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 10:24.
#launchpad-meeting 2010-03-18
<danilos> me
<Ursinha> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 11:02. The chair is Ursinha.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<Ursinha> Welcome to this week's Launchpad Production Meeting. For the next 45 minutes or so, we'll be coordinating the resolution of specific Launchpad bugs and issues.
<Ursinha> no need to rush boss :)
<Ursinha> me
<allenap> me
<sinzui> me
<Ursinha> hehe
<rockstar> I know, danilos is being a suckup
<rockstar> me
<matsubara> me
<danilos> me again ;)
<Ursinha> ok, so matsubara is in behalf of foundations and bigjools is half-here
<danilos> rockstar, I'd use an \[ agreed\] on that :)
<matsubara> Chex, hi
<Ursinha> stub isn't here, so
<danilos> half of bigjools is more than enough for anybody
<Chex> matsubara: hello
<matsubara> stub is excused from the meetings due to the time
<Ursinha> [action] send email to stub about the dba report
<MootBot> ACTION received:  send email to stub about the dba report
<Ursinha> matsubara: that's ok, I'll add a note in the MeetingAgenda page
<Ursinha> so, we're all here
<Ursinha> [TOPIC] Agenda * Actions from last meeting * Oops report & Critical Bugs & Broken scripts * Operations report (mthaddon/Chex/spm/mbarnett) * DBA report (stub) * Proposed items
<MootBot> New Topic:  Agenda * Actions from last meeting * Oops report & Critical Bugs & Broken scripts * Operations report (mthaddon/Chex/spm/mbarnett) * DBA report (stub) * Proposed items
<Ursinha> sigh
<Ursinha> well, you got the idea :)
<Ursinha> [TOPIC] * Actions from last meeting
<MootBot> New Topic:  * Actions from last meeting
<Ursinha>     * matsubara and/or Ursinha to add a count of untriaged bugs per team to the oops section
<Ursinha>       * Done, I have them here :)
<Ursinha>      * Chex to verify why oops-pruner is failing and reply to the failure email with more information.
<ubottu> https://lp-oops.canonical.com/oops.py/?oopsid=pruner
<Ursinha>       * This was fixed: spm removed checking from gangotri and added to wampee and soybean
<Ursinha>      * sinzui to work with losas to set the increase threshold for the product release finder monitoring script.
<sinzui> Not done. I will follow up today
<matsubara> oops-pruner action item was sorted out
<ubottu> https://lp-oops.canonical.com/oops.py/?oopsid=pruner
<Ursinha> matsubara: I've added a note there :)
<Ursinha> thanks ubottu
<Ursinha> thanks sinzui
<matsubara> oops, missed that :-)
<Ursinha> [action] sinzui to follow up in work with losas to set the increase threshold for the product release finder monitoring script
<MootBot> ACTION received:  sinzui to follow up in work with losas to set the increase threshold for the product release finder monitoring script
<Ursinha> matsubara: :)
<Ursinha> next!
<Ursinha> [TOPIC] * Oops report & Critical Bugs & Broken scripts
<MootBot> New Topic:  * Oops report & Critical Bugs & Broken scripts
<Ursinha> only one bug, bug 535071
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 535071 in launchpad-foundations "Better error handling when librarian is offline" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/535071
<Ursinha> matsubara: I only would like to ask if there's hope to fix this this cycle
<Ursinha> matsubara: now that the LocationError bug is fixed, this is the next in the oops rank
<matsubara> Ursinha, not sure, I'll bring it up with Gary to have it scheduled
<Ursinha> (for reference: LocationError bug is bug 538207)
<Ursinha> thanks matsubara
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 538207 in launchpad-foundations "Oops calling view/isRedirectInhibited from non-launchpadview" [High,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/538207
<Ursinha> [action] matsubara to talk to gary_poster about bug 535071
<MootBot> ACTION received:  matsubara to talk to gary_poster about bug 535071
<matsubara> [action] matsubara to talk to Gary about scheduling bug 535071
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 535071 in launchpad-foundations "Better error handling when librarian is offline" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/535071
<Ursinha> all critical bugs are fix committed
<matsubara> great, thanks Ursinha
<Ursinha> and
<Ursinha> I see that librarian-gc failed on 16, but haven't seen any other failures, will keep an eye
<Ursinha> matsubara: any failing scripts I'm missing?
<matsubara> nope, we already have an action item for prf
<Ursinha> great, next!
<Ursinha> will talk about the untriaged bugs in the Proposed items section
<Ursinha> [TOPIC] * Operations report (mthaddon/Chex/spm/mbarnett)
<MootBot> New Topic:  * Operations report (mthaddon/Chex/spm/mbarnett)
<rockstar> Ursinha, you didn't bring up my critical bug...
<Ursinha> rockstar: hmm I right before the meeting all critical bugs were fix committed...
<Ursinha> s/I right/right/
<Ursinha> rockstar: hmm they are, which one is your critical bug?
<rockstar> Ursinha, oh, well, yeah, it's fix committed, but a critical bug wouldn't be done 'til fix released (I'd figure)
<Ursinha> rockstar: well, I always assumed that having it fixed, the devel would make it to the end.. are you having issues to have your fix cherrypicked?
<rockstar> Ursinha, no, but I was just prepared to give my statement.  If you don't need it, I'll shut up.  :)
<Ursinha> rockstar: c'mon :)
<Ursinha> rockstar: go ahead, please
<Ursinha> rockstar: ok ok
<Ursinha> :)
<Ursinha> Chex: hi :) stage is yours
 * rockstar apologizes for interruption
<Chex> hello everyone
<Chex> here is the LOSA report for this week, a bit brief:
 * bigjools reads  scrollback and throws wet fish at danilos
<Chex> - LP Memory Leaks:  We have gone through a couple rounds of testing trying to track down these appserver memory leaks.
<Chex>   (Bug #531071)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 531071 in launchpad-foundations "lpnet app servers are leaking memory again" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/531071
<Chex> - Codebrowse crashes: We have a new debugging procedure to capture the python crashdump for now, we are
<Chex>   waiting for GDB debugger syntax give better crash info to the developers.
<Chex> - LP incidents of note: ; LP Cherry-picks:
<Chex>           16-Mar: CP 9091 to lpnet*
<Chex>           18-Mar: CP 9093 to librarian2
<Chex> and thats it for this week. any comments/questions??
<Ursinha> I'm fine, anyone else?
<danilos> Chex, nice, is there any process in place to escalate those crashes?
<danilos> ok, I guess that's a no :)
<danilos> or I am offline :)
<Ursinha> danilos: you're not
<Ursinha> or we're both on a parallel universe
<Chex> danilos: not really, right now michael hudson asked us to trigger a coredump, and let me know where the file is, for now, and he will work on a GDB way of tracing
<danilos> Chex, cool, so it's basically a per-request basis, right? iow it won't happen automatically when we get crashes
<Chex> danilos: thats correct, he asked us to do this for now: ' gcore $loggerhead_pid '
<danilos> Chex, ok, thanks a lot, very useful to know if we ever come to need it (though, hopefully not)
<Chex> danilos: yes sure. welcome
<Ursinha> anything else?
<Ursinha> I'll take that as a no :)
<Ursinha> moving on
<Ursinha> [TOPIC] * DBA report (stub)
<MootBot> New Topic:  * DBA report (stub)
<Ursinha> stub is excused, I have an action for getting the report
<Ursinha> next!
<Ursinha> [TOPIC] * Proposed items
<MootBot> New Topic:  * Proposed items
<Ursinha> I have a few :)
<Ursinha>  * qa tagging: NEW! launchpad queries and "qa summary"
<Ursinha>  * untriaged bugs and QA stats of the week
<Ursinha>  * Feedback on the new process, improvement suggestions and comments welcome :)
<Ursinha> ok, so the first one
<Ursinha> I've created a list of queries to make qa life easier: https://dev.launchpad.net/PolicyAndProcess/PreReleaseQAProcess/Experiment/QueryList
<Ursinha> have sent them to the dev list, but I want to make sure you're not in unnecessary pain
<Ursinha> :)
<Ursinha> there are queries per devel and tag, so it's easy to find a list in lp for a person
<Ursinha> but I see this is not enough, team leads need team overall and we can't have it using launchpad UI
<Ursinha> so I created a "qa summary" for each team, you can find yours here: https://devpad.canonical.com/~lpqateam/testplans/
<Ursinha> I've filed a RT to have these synced to rookery, to be accessible to public
<Ursinha> questions?
<danilos> we should email all the TLs about these!
 * Ursinha adds to her notebook
<Ursinha> [action] Ursinha to send email to TLs about QA summaries
<MootBot> ACTION received:  Ursinha to send email to TLs about QA summaries
<sinzui> I just add the qa urls to the milestone page.
<Ursinha> sinzui: is that helpful?
<danilos> sinzui, the problem is that we can't search by all the persons in a team, so if someone has done work outside your core app, it's hard to see it
<Ursinha> danilos: exactly
<Ursinha> team != lp project
<sinzui> Anyone from my team or user can see the bugs we ware working and and see our QA status. Since we do not necessarily QA our own landings, I do not care about which person has the tag. I care about the team
<rockstar> Ursinha, code team's summary is blank.
<Ursinha> rockstar: it's because it's being generated now
<Ursinha> (really)
<Ursinha> every 15 minutes
<rockstar> Ursinha, oh, I assumed it was because we were awesome.
<Ursinha> lol
<danilos> sinzui, right, and malone doesn't offer the option to search per-team, only per-application or per single person
<Ursinha> danilos: sinzui, bug 520569
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 520569 in malone "Add the ability of searching bugs from various assignees" [Low,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/520569
<sinzui> Ursinha: yes, but when anyone fixes a bug in registry, I wan that report because my team is responsible for the app. If a contributor lands something bad in the registry project, it is not the contributor ot the QA members who fix it; the registry team fixes it
<danilos> sinzui, right, but sometimes people from your team will land stuff in... launchpad-web project
<danilos> sinzui, and who'll ensure that QA happens there?
<Ursinha> sinzui: thanks for explaining your case
<sinzui> I search launchpad-project too
<sinzui> tags work for project
<danilos> sinzui, this report should give you a smaller list to go through instead of going through launchpad-project, and we can have RM worry about launchpad-project
<danilos> sinzui, nobody will mind if you always worry about launchpad-project :)
<danilos> I still think this is a useful list to have
<danilos> if that's what we are arguing
<Ursinha> :)
<Ursinha> I'm not sure I got the idea, but if sinzui needs a list of lp-registry items, it's easy to have it using Launchpad ui
<sinzui> I do not need a list.
<Ursinha> if that's what we are arguing :P
<Ursinha> sinzui: are you happy with the things you have today?
<sinzui> No, but that is because I think I want to build a way to find the intersection of a team with a project or series or milestone to get a report of bugs and blueprints
<danilos> Ursinha, sinzui: let's move on, and we can discuss the merits of this on the list, and suggest improvements as well; Ursinha, what's the LP project to file bugs/wishes against?
<Ursinha> sinzui: if I add a list of launchpad-registry to that list, would help?
<sinzui> There is still a problem that no report understands that I and a canonical hacker and a contributor. My team is not responsible for QAing what I contribute
<Ursinha> danilos: it's lp-qa-tools
<sinzui> s/I and a/I am a/
<Ursinha> sinzui: in general those items fall in the launchpad itself team, and me and matsubara take care of that
<danilos> sinzui, well, you are responsible for that, and LP team is responsible for not letting unQAd items through, so we'd either have to back it out or QA it
<danilos> sinzui, at least IMHO, but it's a different topic, so let's not discuss it now :)
<sinzui> You have never QAed my contributions to blueprints, answers, or foundations
<Ursinha> sinzui, danilos, I'll send the email to the list, and we can discuss the details in there, what about that?
<danilos> sinzui, that's because we've done a bad job with QA in general
<sinzui> And I do QA all contributors work who land something in blueprints, answers or registry.
<danilos> sinzui, that's very nice, and nobody is questioning that; whether we should rely on sinzui to QA all the items like that is an open question with a very simple answer ("no, we all should do it or help community do it")
<danilos> anywaay, let's move on
<Ursinha> ok
<Ursinha> thanks danilos and sinzui for speaking up
<Ursinha> :)
<Ursinha> list of untriaged bugs in launchpad-project, a picture of a moment before the meeting: http://paste.ubuntu.com/397314/
<danilos> thanks
<Ursinha> or
<Ursinha> <flood>
<Ursinha> Soyuz (soyuz): 79
<Ursinha> launchpadlib  (launchpadlib): 25
<Ursinha> OOPS Tools (oops-tools): 22
<Ursinha> Launchpad Developer Utilities (lp-dev-utils): 9
<Ursinha> Launchpad QA Utilities (lp-qa-tools): 7
<Ursinha> Launchpad Development Wiki Moin theme (launchpad-dev-moin-theme): 6
<Ursinha> Launchpad Bugs (malone): 5
<Ursinha> Launchpad Auto Build System (launchpad-buildd): 4
<Ursinha> Launchpad Help Wiki Moin theme (launchpad-help-moin-theme): 4
<Ursinha> launchpad-web (launchpad-web): 3
<Ursinha> Launchpad Translations (rosetta): 3
<Ursinha> Launchpad CSCVS (launchpad-cscvs): 2
<Ursinha> launchpad-loggerhead (launchpad-loggerhead): 2
<danilos> bigjools, do you think soyuz will need any help in triaging?
<Ursinha> Launchpad News WordPress Theme (launchpad-news-wordpress-theme): 2
<Ursinha> Launchpad Buildbot Configuration (lpbuildbot): 2
<Ursinha> trac-launchpad-migrator (trac-launchpad-migrator): 2
<Ursinha> Launchpad Documentation (launchpad-documentation): 1
<Ursinha> </flood>
<bigjools> if you think you can help, yes please
<bigjools> if it's obvious what to do, do it (but let me know)
<danilos> bigjools, I'll go 'invalidate' a dozen or so, just to give a hand
<bigjools> bug fixing for dummies
<Ursinha> danilos: I have a script that does that.... kidding
<Ursinha> :P
<matsubara> I'll take care of the 22 New items for oops-tools
<danilos> bigjools, and I'll mark a bunch of others as 'incomplete' with a comment "Why do you think it is so?"
<matsubara> [action] matsubara to triage open oops-tools bugs
<rockstar> Fail. launchpad-code isn't in that list.
<danilos> rockstar, this time it probably means you are amazing
<matsubara> that's because you have 0 new oopses
<matsubara> rockstar, good job!
<matsubara> :-)
<rockstar> daniloff, yeah, I was fishing...
<rockstar> :)
<matsubara> s/oopses/bugs/
<Ursinha> rockstar: because it has no new bugs
<Ursinha> you are all so funny today :)
<Ursinha> [action] matsubara to triage open oops-tools bugs
<MootBot> ACTION received:  matsubara to triage open oops-tools bugs
<rockstar> Ursinha, looks aren't everything though
<Ursinha> [action] Ursinha to triage open lp-qa-tools bugs
<MootBot> ACTION received:  Ursinha to triage open lp-qa-tools bugs
<Ursinha> rockstar: sorry? :)
<rockstar> Ursinha, <Ursinha> you are all so funny today :)
<Ursinha> anyway, matsubara and I want to reactivate a section in this meeting, QA stats of the week
<Ursinha> then we can discuss the status of bug triage and QA
<Ursinha> that's all from me, I'm done here
<Ursinha> anyone willing to add something?
<Ursinha> ok, so sorry for taking so long
<Ursinha> Thank you all for attending this week's Launchpad Production Meeting. See https://dev.launchpad.net/MeetingAgenda for the logs.
<Ursinha> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 11:56.
<Ursinha> thanks everyone
#launchpad-meeting 2011-03-16
<Ursinha> OOPS-1901B1086
<ubot5> https://lp-oops.canonical.com/oops.py/?oopsid=1901B1086
