#ubuntu-artwork 2006-02-20
<artnay> Tm_T: any new versions of kedubuntu? :)
<artnay> hey jsgotangco and miketech 
<artnay> grep omeg http://linux.slashdot.org/linux/06/02/14/151215.shtml
<artnay> what do you think? he surely has a point, but what is that uncreative icon set wars?
<artnay> it would be nice if we had such activity here that we could start a war on icon sets *grins and hides*
<jsgotangco> hi!
<jsgotangco> sorry i was in a meeting
<artnay> no prob
<artnay> what do you guys think of general feedback at /Artwork? wouldn't it be more important to receive project-related feedback into a wiki page that is meant for that (discussion and WIP for a certain project)
<artnay> if and when artwork team actually starts to get feedback, one page for all that will be a chaos
<artnay> is there any difference between https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ArtworkTeam/Discussion and https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Feedback ? seems like a dupe to me
<junes> how do I find out what still needs to be created for the next release?
<klepas> artnay: hey
<artnay> klepas: pong
<klepas> hey artnay!
<klepas> been a while :)
<artnay> true
<artnay> how are you? busy with the school?
<klepas> very
<klepas> college is keeping me pinned down
<klepas> i ought to be sleeping now
<klepas> but i decided to catch up with some people
<klepas> slept 4.5 hours last night =\
<artnay> umh, normal sleeping hours ;)
#ubuntu-artwork 2006-02-22
<derek[] > Anybody knows how to install PCF fonts?
<Tm_T> in gnome?
<derek[] > yes
<derek[] > ubuntu
<derek[] > Are PCF fonts installed in a different way from that of TTF ones?
<Tm_T> oh well, installing fonts is easy in KDE, dunno about Gnome
<derek[] > ok
<Tm_T> hmm, actually, some people do find drag'n'drop as hard operation ;(
<derek[] > ?
<derek[] > that's how i install my fonts
<Tm_T> that's how I install in KDE
<Tm_T> as I said, no idea how it's done in Gnome
<klepas> has anyone seen henrik?
<klepas> btw 'ello :)
<Tm_T> klepas: hullo :)
<derek[] > hallo
<klepas> how are you guys?
<Tm_T> pretty well, you?
<klepas> yea, alrighty
<klepas> avoiding studies :)
<klepas> http://creativecommons.org/images/support/commonershirt.jpg
<klepas> what a lovely tshirt
#ubuntu-artwork 2006-02-25
<N3trunner> greetings everyone!
<lmanul> Hi N3trunner
<N3trunner> hello there..
<N3trunner> first time to be here :)
<klepas> g'eve
<derek[] > guten abend
<klepas> vieh gehts?
<Tm_T> oh my...
<Tm_T> http://kapsi.fi/tm_travolta/kuvat/temp/foo/foo_114.png
<Tm_T> just beginning :)
#ubuntu-artwork 2006-02-26
<klepas> 'ello
#ubuntu-artwork 2007-02-19
<darkmatter> hmmm....  http://www.flickr.com/photo_zoom.gne?id=395366523&context=set-72157594488098254&size=o
<darkmatter> I think it needs more padding
<kwwii> looks nice
<kwwii> the text entry is awesome
<kwwii> but the top icons do look too close to the top
<troy_s> twiddlers unite
<nysosym> hi there :)
<troy_s> greets nysosym
<kwwii> hi guys
<nysosym> hi troy_s :)
<nysosym> hi kwwii :)
<troy_s> kwwii what are you twiddling with currently?
<nysosym> re
<kwwii> troy_s: working on gdm
<darkmatter> hey kwwii
<darkmatter> http://farm1.static.flickr.com/137/395866812_9731560b7f_o.png <--- blueberry bl00 ;)
#ubuntu-artwork 2007-02-20
<nysosym> damn, troy is away :-/
<nysosym> kwwii: nice work in gdm, but why do u replace the background with the "old" style?
<nysosym> and what do u think about that gtk style
<nysosym> ?
<nysosym> http://img506.imageshack.us/my.php?image=screenshot1xb9.png
<kwwii> nysosym: I am just checking in whatever I happen to be working on at the time
<kwwii> nysosym: the bg will probably be quite different
<kwwii> I have been working on gdm for a week now non-stop and it is breaking me
<kwwii> :p
<kwwii> I just worked on something I thought was interesting and then I looked at it again and it is sticking it's toungue out at me
<nysosym> kwwii: sure, u have my biggest respect for that!
<kwwii> actually inkscape just died
<kwwii> so I lost even that messed up crap
<nysosym> hehe :D
<kwwii> the most important thing in doing artwork on linux is to remember to save often
<kwwii> that says a lot of the program
<nysosym> yep, i have although lost my work for a half hour ^^
<kwwii> it died three times on me today
<kwwii> and I cannot save every few minutes
<nysosym> kwwii: yes, here is the same...
<nysosym> but i think it isn't a linux problem ;)
<kwwii> oh no, ai in vmware runs great
<kwwii> :p
<nysosym> hehe :)
<nysosym> kwwii: why do u make your work in osx?
<kwwii> nysosym: I haven't been
<nysosym> ohh sry, wrong question, "why u didn't make your work in osx?" is the right :)
<kwwii> lol
<kwwii> and exactly the opposite ;-)
<kwwii> I didn't do it in osx because I try to work with the tools of the system I am working on
<kwwii> theoretically it should not effect my creative talent, only show my skill :p
<kwwii> but logistically it is teaching me to save often
<kwwii> strategically :-D
<kwwii> lol
<kwwii> here....
<kwwii> http://sinecera.de/gdm_background6A.png <-- who is tired of doing gdm?
<kwwii> it's an ubuntu pirate sticking his tongue out
<kwwii> troy_s: you missed the best part
<nysosym> kwwii: wow, the gdm looks amazing! O.o
<nysosym> hm i think it looks like a slit with a sheet of paper :)
<kwwii> yeah, that was the idea
<nysosym> but?
<kwwii> 01:29 < kwwii> it's an ubuntu pirate sticking his tongue out
<nysosym> hmm with a lot of fantasy :D
<nysosym> but i see it in my ghost eyes in launchpad "ubuntu sticks his tongue out!" ^^
<kwwii> yeah, it would happen
<kwwii> troy_s: 01:26 < kwwii> http://sinecera.de/gdm_background6A.png <-- who is tired of  doing gdm?
<nysosym> kwwii: and when u made another line like this (baad quality)
<nysosym> http://img504.imageshack.us/my.php?image=gdmbackground6add2.png
<kwwii> http://sinecera.de/gdm_background6B.png is what I have done so far
<kwwii> but I am just playing with ideas
<nysosym> much better than my idea :D
<troy_s> hrm...
<troy_s> what is the best part?
<troy_s> did viper show up kwwii?
<kwwii> troy_s: nope
<kwwii> troy_s: no viper
<kwwii> troy_s: the funky pirate sticking his tongue out
<troy_s> ll
<troy_s> lol
<kwwii> nysosym: you mean something like http://sinecera.de/gdm_background6BC.png
<nysosym> kwwii: link doesn't work
<troy_s> the lower bar in http://sinecera.de/gdm_background6B.png seems to be an improvement on the current bar (options / etc bar)
<kwwii> nysosym: try it again
<troy_s> might be nice to extend that grad a bit...
<troy_s> kwwii -- i saw you signed up for the media center team
<troy_s> if they are going to make a go of it
<troy_s> perhaps we should collaborate and see what we can do
<kwwii> troy_s: actually, that is what I thought I could get out of the whole thing
<troy_s> given a little bit more fre reign.
<kwwii> the lower bar
<troy_s> lol
<troy_s> lol
<troy_s> yes
<troy_s> the lower bar is certainly made more polished simply by increasing its complexity
<nysosym> kwwii: although not found :-/
<troy_s> the overarching presentation design of the GDM still leaves me asking questions like 'what is sabdfl trying to communicate via this presentation', as what he believes it communicates and what it _does_ are separated by the reality divide
<troy_s> kwwii have you been in touch with the media centre guys?
<kwwii> troy_s: nope, just subscribed to the list so far
<kwwii> wanted to add my name to the wiki page
<kwwii> nysosym: it works fine for me
<kwwii> troy_s: can you confirm whether http://sinecera.de/gdm_background6BC.png works for you?
<nysosym> kwwii: crazy, even "wget" says that  file not found
<kwwii> lol
<kwwii> wait
<kwwii> remove the extra B
<kwwii> http://sinecera.de/gdm_background6C.png
<kwwii> sorry
<nysosym> kwwii: no problem :)
<kwwii> it's late, time for bed soon
<nysosym> yes i like it :)
<troy_s> kwwii does it look like the project is going to fly?
<nysosym> kwwii: personaly i think that bg6C looks better as bg6B :D
<kwwii> troy_s: I've another meeting tomorrow trying to start figuring out how to work things out
<troy_s> meeting with?
<nysosym> kwwii: while, the shadow on the bottom has the wrong place in this version
<troy_s> the media center guys?>
<kwwii> troy_s: sorry, I misunderstood...no meeting on that, I heard about it from some other devs
<kwwii> I think it will turn into something
<kwwii> ok, time for beddy-bye
<kwwii> night all
<nysosym> kwwii: good night, sleep well ;)
<kwwii> you too
<kwwii> ;-)
<nysosym> thx ;)
<nysosym> see u soon my friend :)
<darkmatter> troy_s, http://www.flickr.com/photo_zoom.gne?id=396546646&size=o <--- gahhhh!!!!! the buttons are to "milky"!!!
<troy_s> kwwii I don't know if your reply to the desktop effects icon bug clarifies your position on it.
<kwwii> troy_s: :p
<troy_s> kwwii I'm serious lol
<troy_s> Your pronoun is lacking a relationship.
<troy_s> "it"
<andreasn> what package installs desktop-effects?
<troy_s> andreasn: No clue.
<kwwii> sorry troy_s I was oversimplifying things
<kwwii> I meant that your version looks fine :-)
<kwwii> replied again, more clearly
<troy_s> kwwii I couldn't care less either way, but I thought I would inform you that the pronoun was a little 'shady' ;)
<troy_s> kwwii Any motion on the media center end?
<kwwii> troy_s: yeah, looking back it was very unclear
<troy_s> kwwii Or are you still dicking with the gdm?
<kwwii> troy_s: nope, I'm on the list, eventually I'll put my name on the wiki :p
<kwwii> yepp, still working on it
<troy_s> kwwii: How goes the GDM and such for Kub?
<kwwii> :-(
<kwwii> troy_s: it'll be mainly the same as edgy
<kwwii> I am working on updating the logo a bit
<kwwii> that'll go on usplash, kdm and ksplash
<troy_s> kwwii Have you seen e17 lately?
<troy_s> _wow_
<troy_s> It simply clobbers all the other desktop environments, and does it in a cleanly implementated fashion.
<kwwii> troy_s: nope, the last screens I saw was months and months ago
<troy_s> feck my spelling stinks.
<troy_s> kwwii There are 64 bit repos now too... so trying it is quite easy.
<kwwii> I should look into that
<troy_s> It simply blows K and G right out of the water
<kwwii> yeah, enlightenment was my favorite for a while
<troy_s> the downside is that there are a few user interface elements missing for me to push it on the masses
<troy_s> It is rather annoying that K/U have decided to look at bloody existing crap like Compiz and Beryl
<troy_s> when you could EASILY implement ANTIALIASING, DROP SHADOWS, and FADES _without_ hardware accelleration
<troy_s> using the xcomposite extension
<troy_s> (or without -- as with e)
<troy_s> Frustrating as feck
<troy_s> once again, missing the 'bigger' picture
<troy_s> Hell, you could use SDL and the hardware accelleration provided in almost every card (2D) would help it.
<kwwii> yeah, I've always said the compiz and beryl are just the beginning
<kwwii> in 3 years you probably won't even know what they are
<troy_s> well they are crap
<troy_s> because they are very reliant on the silly hardware
<troy_s> if we are going to push this crap, it needs to be cross platform and very non exclusiory
<troy_s> the basic code that keith shot in xcompmgr is very easy to figure out
<troy_s> and very easy to implement
<troy_s> and it runs on _every_ platform
<troy_s> with or without 3d accellerated drivers.
<troy_s> why can't we bloody agree that elements like _antialising_ of window edges to lower windows and drop shadows actually have a _useful_ place in interfaces?
<kwwii> yeah, good point
<troy_s> In fact, I have been attempting to port the xcomposite protocol to python in the pyxlib libraries
<troy_s> to show just htat
<troy_s> using pygame (SDL based) we could have a plethora of very simple effects that would ++greatly++ augment the end user experience
<troy_s> without overwhelming them with garbage beryl 'exploding window' crap uselessness.
<kwwii> hehe
<troy_s> Drop shadows for focused window feedback, antialised windows against lower elements
<kwwii> I *nead* my windows to burn
<kwwii> erm, spelling
<troy_s> two things that should have been in ubuntu four cycles ago
<troy_s> let's see... about 20 lines of code
<kwwii> all of that is a basic of any modern Os
<troy_s> (maybe a bit of twiddling on the antialising)
<troy_s> I imagine they should all do it through xcomposite for a clean implementation
<troy_s> as it is pretty easy to do.
<troy_s> Does kwin do it?
<kwwii> yes, but not well
<troy_s> well that would be a kludge
<troy_s> because i suspect kwin isn't using xcomposite either
<kwwii> guess not
<troy_s> xcompmgr runs on every bloody card -- i don't know why we don't just snip the fricking leaks out and focus on those two aspects.
<kwwii> then again, kwin is supposed to run on windows and osx too
<troy_s> lol
<troy_s> there's some good thinking.
<kwwii> actually, some kde stuff is getting more use on windows
<kwwii> amazed me
<troy_s> uh like what?
<kwwii> no idea...just heard lots of stuff about it
<troy_s> lol
<troy_s> ms will go out of their way to break anything like that... i simply can't see it being even a remote possibility.
<troy_s> anymore than running mplayer on osx/vista as an example (the latter I am sure will be borked)
<kwwii> oh sure, I am not saying it will ever even come close to mainstream
<troy_s> kwwii did you have your meeting today?
<kwwii> troy_s: nope, it was postponed till tomorrow
<troy_s> super
<troy_s> lol
<kwwii> man, if they paid people to break inkscape, I would be a good candidate
<troy_s> kwwii Inkscape is deadly stable on my end...
<troy_s> are you reporting your issues?
<troy_s> because that is sort of the deal with using free software remember? ;)
<troy_s> kwwii: You see this?
<troy_s> http://linux.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=07/02/19/2212213&from=rss
<troy_s> wow... check out the iconography on that dellideastorm website
<troy_s> that's a slick evolution.
<kwwii> troy_s: it is the gaussian blur stuff
<kwwii> well known, I am afraid
<troy_s> kwwii Yes it isn't terribly mature.  Enough to do photorealistic illustration, but when you start doing big complex uns it gets borked.
<troy_s> but you should make sure.
<troy_s> http://s3.crispynews.com/themes/dell_theme_dev/images/workflow_nav.png
<troy_s> look at that icon trend
<troy_s> interesting
<kwwii> at small sizes you almost have to go comic
<troy_s> small sizes are rather a product of the past.
<kwwii> don't I wish it
<troy_s> there simply aren't that many mainstream users who are going to rely on a small icon to
<troy_s> _mainstream_
<troy_s> connote communication
<troy_s> it's all the rage in the silly interfaces that abound in G and K.
<kwwii> I want to be able to rant to artists about how "in my day we didn't complain about 32x32!!!"
<troy_s> The fundamental idea behind icon metaphors and useage has completely been lost
<troy_s> Icons are only useful to an average 'sit down and use the interface' type when they are subject to miller's short term memory work.
<troy_s> and even then, it is questionable.
<kwwii> with new interface ideas there is not such emphasis on icons
<troy_s> applications are so much more complex and feature laden than they were years ago that it is about time people took a step back and acknowledged that icons and menus are _very_ dated.
<troy_s> they don't work.  culturally they are borked.  render wise they are borked (communicating in 22 pixels is just a naff exercise in self-gratification). etc.
<troy_s> It's simply a dated byproduct of an era gone by.
<kwwii> yepp
<kwwii> ok, time to grill
<kwwii> be back later
<troy_s> kwwii
<troy_s> before you go
<troy_s> look at this
<troy_s> http://www.projectcartoon.com/cartoon/644
<troy_s> hilarious when you get to the bottom
<kwwii> nice
<kwwii> ok, I'm out
<lapo> hi there
<nysosym> hi there :)
<lapo> yo nysosym
<lizardking> Hello everybody
<lizardking> troy_s: hi troy. I was talking with Daniel Holbach to try to candidate me as Ubuntu member. I will be very glad to do that. Do you make a fanclub for my candidation?
<troy_s> lol
<troy_s> i suppose i could
<troy_s> when is the meeting?
<troy_s> doubt that my opinion matters however lizardking
#ubuntu-artwork 2007-02-21
<lizardking> troy_s: Wonderful, btw I have some problem because the meeting is on the 26 Feb. It's Monday. I have basketball training at 23 pm UTC
<lizardking> troy_s: damn! Perhpas I have just finshed the oransoda portin to oransun ;) now the theme is absolutly free yeah :D
<troy_s> good stuff.
<joejaxx> Hello All
<joejaxx> anyone about/non-idle?
<troy_s> joejaxx: go?
<joejaxx> ?
<joejaxx> troy_s: well i can here to see if anyone wanted to volunteer there time and help with the Fluxbuntu artwork :P
<joejaxx> s/there/their/g
<troy_s> what is your position in it?
<troy_s> joe?
<troy_s> joejaxx: ?
<joejaxx> oh
<joejaxx> i created the project
<troy_s> ah cool
<troy_s> joejaxx: How is the team going then?>
<joejaxx> it is going well
<joejaxx> there are about 5 people developing it
<joejaxx> and only two people doing artwork including myself
<troy_s> what are your ideas for it?
<joejaxx> we are going with a leaf theme for the artwork
<troy_s> ahh nifty... ideas in snapshots?
<troy_s> do you have a motivating image etc?
<joejaxx> sure hold on
<joejaxx> i am trying to find a screenshot with without something in the way of the background
<joejaxx> http://fluxbuntu.org/fluxbuntu_jaxx.png
<joejaxx> that is the default background
<joejaxx> there is a login theme too but it needs work
<joejaxx> we have not even touched the usplash
<joejaxx> http://fluxbuntu.org/fluxbuntu_login3.png that is the login theme
<joejaxx> it needs work though
<troy_s> joejaxx: Sorry, i was in the bathroom
<troy_s> let me catch up
<joejaxx> it is quite alright :)
<troy_s> joejaxx: Who's photo is the wallpaper?
<troy_s> Because if you are going to do a set, it would be nice to have custom components for all of them.
<joejaxx> i forget the name of the photographer
<troy_s> The leaf is a great starting point for a motif though.
<troy_s> Are there license issues with it?>
<joejaxx> it might now ship default though because the photographer has yet to return my email
<troy_s> Well you should get some imagery that you know is licensed
<joejaxx> yeah
<joejaxx> for the usplash i was thinking of having a leaf animation
<joejaxx> mimicking a leaf in the wind
<joejaxx> but of course on the usplash it would just be going back and forth
<troy_s> it would need to be endless though...
<joejaxx> across the ends of the word fluxbuntu
<joejaxx> troy_s: is there not a way to repeat the animation?
<troy_s> well yes, that is what i mean
<troy_s> it repeats endlessly
<joejaxx> ah ok
<troy_s> so floating from one to the other won't work
<troy_s> it becomes problematic with a floating leaf back to forth ...
<joejaxx> it would not?
<troy_s> well it just will look kooky in all likelihood.
<troy_s> you would need something a little more cyclical.
<joejaxx> oh ok
<troy_s> otherwise it ends up 'pacing'
<troy_s> which looks odd.
<joejaxx> yeah
<joejaxx> i was going to say have it float like a sine wave :P
<joejaxx> which is pacing lol
<troy_s> a little more 'american beauty' ish
<joejaxx> i never saw that film :\
<troy_s> ack
<troy_s> joejaxx: Go rent it.
<troy_s> joejaxx: It is a very impressive piece of work.
<troy_s> joejaxx: And when I chat you tomorrow, you will know _exactly_ what I mean.
<joejaxx> ok
<troy_s> joejaxx: I'd offer my help for Flux, but I am already quite swamped with standard life, u2, and several other elements.
<troy_s> joejaxx: I could very well, assuming I find some time, generate a series of photos for you.
<joejaxx> it is quite alright
<troy_s> Then we could work out what direction you want them to head etc... it might give you some ideas for the GDM etc.
<joejaxx> i would appreciate that
<joejaxx> troy_s: yeah
<troy_s> Let me see how my schedule works out over the next short bit.  Photography is a little easier than actual art and design as I don't need to go through the draw/scan/tweak cycle.
<joejaxx> ok
<troy_s> joejaxx: Can you handle large raw files?
<joejaxx> i have not really tried before
<joejaxx> is a pentium 1.6ghz with 1.25gb of ram enough?
<troy_s> yeah should be fine... they aren't hard to manage with, just a little large on the space
<joejaxx> oh ok
<joejaxx> yeah it should be fine then
<troy_s> kwwii I know you are not in right now, but check this link and let's see what we can do from the art end...
<troy_s> http://digg.com/linux_unix/Ubuntu_Human_Icons_for_OpenOffice
<BHSPitMonkey> yo
<klepas> moin
<pmjdebruijn> lo
<pmjdebruijn> say I could arrange for some great background photo's, how would they need to be licensed to be included in Ubuntu by default?
<pmjdebruijn> is CreativeCommons acceptable?
<pmjdebruijn> or does it need to be DFSG?
<pmjdebruijn> I can get the photos at 1920x1440
<pmjdebruijn> for example:
<pmjdebruijn> http://www.jasperfotografeert.com/displayimage.php?album=lastup&cat=0&pos=16
<pmjdebruijn> and even if other licenses are acceptable, what license if preferable?
<pmjdebruijn> I still need to negotiate the exact term with the author
<elkbuntu> pmjdebruijn, GFDL would work too, afaik
<pmjdebruijn> and how do you feel about Creative Commons?
<pmjdebruijn> that might be the authors preference?
<darkmatter> mornin all
<pmjdebruijn> for example: http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/2.5/
<elkbuntu> pmjdebruijn, that one is gpl compatible, afaik, so it is fine.
<pmjdebruijn> elkbuntu, you mean without the NonCommercial clause?
<elkbuntu> yes. the nc would prevent someone from making a commercial deritive, which the gpl maintains ones right to do
<elkbuntu> iirc
<pmjdebruijn> ok
<pmjdebruijn> I'll talk to the author
<pmjdebruijn> but as a sidenote
<pmjdebruijn> if I were to assemble a pack of 3-10 great background, would they stand a chance of being included in Ubuntu?
<pmjdebruijn> I'm not talking about Ubuntu themed backgrounds, but generic ones
<elkbuntu> pmjdebruijn, providing they are of good quality and properly packaged, im sure they'd hit at least universe
<pmjdebruijn> that won't be a problem
<pmjdebruijn> though I'm aiming for inclusion into the LiveCD
<pmjdebruijn> (at least ideally)
<elkbuntu> probably not likely, since space is a premium on it
<elkbuntu> better to aim for the dvd
<elkbuntu> but then, not guaranteed
<pmjdebruijn> ofcourse
<vdepizzol> will openoffice in feisty come with tango and human icon theme?
<elkbuntu> vdepizzol, no clue, but im sure someone will take a look at them
* pmjdebruijn hopes font rendering is fixed in OOo for feisty
<darkmatter> hmmm... http://www.flickr.com/photo_zoom.gne?id=396546646&size=o <--- opinions?
<pmjdebruijn> what about it?
<pmjdebruijn> darkmatter, using a third party font?
<darkmatter> pmjdebruijn, yes I am... and recompiled cairo n freetype with the patches for improved rendering
<pmjdebruijn> it's hard to compare with another font :p
<darkmatter> lol... I was just looking for input on the theme progress...sheesh :P
<pmjdebruijn> is it a modified industrial?
<darkmatter> nope.... its currently just a "live mockup" using the bugfest pixmap engine... just easier to work out the look n feel that way... but soon it'll start getting cairo love as its own engine
<darkmatter> but yeah... its kind of a "neo industrial"... that was one of the sources of inspiration
<arnason> Any one here?
<kwwii> I'm here
<arnason> ok... Where should I report an anoying "bug" in the new Launchpad BETA UI ? is there an IRC channel for the Beta testers?
<darkmatter> morning kwwii :)
<darkmatter> http://www.flickr.com/photo_zoom.gne?id=397661996&context=set-72157594488098254&size=o <--- appreciate any input you could give an the scroll troughs fella's.. they dont quite seem "right" to me
<kwwii> arnason: not that I know of
<kwwii> arnason: I guess reporting a bug would be the best
<kwwii> darkmatter: wow, that looks awesome
<arnason> kwwii: well... thanks anyway...
<kwwii> darkmatter: perhaps if you made them shallower
<kwwii> ie. less dark gradient on the left
<darkmatter> kwwii, yeah... was thinking they were a bit dark
<kwwii> one thing that i notice is the selection in the menus
<kwwii> I think it looks too 3d-is for me
<darkmatter> kwwii, yeah... was going to flatten, darken/saturate it slightly.. maybe indent it slightly *shrug*. save the actual "3d" for the buttons
<darkmatter> the 3d doesnt quite fit with the perforated paper menu thingy
<kwwii> exactly, the menus seems very light, which is nice
<troy_s> kwwii did you get that post with the work that fellow did on the oo icons?
<troy_s> kwwii ping me when you are in.
<troy_s> pmjdebruijn: Just to give you a heads up, photos are pretty out of scope regarding sabdfl.
<troy_s> He spent a good deal of money on a photo set once and was burned.  As a result, he is currently in a state of 'avoid all communication' with the design pattern (inferred)
<pmjdebruijn> avoid all communication?
<pmjdebruijn> why weren't the photos published?
<pmjdebruijn> I can understand not including them
<troy_s> google.
<troy_s> you can find them
<troy_s> there are a few professional photographers in our midst
<troy_s> i don't think the issue is a lack of content
<troy_s> ;)
<pmjdebruijn> if it's not easily accessible people won't find it :)
* pmjdebruijn goes out for food
<troy_s> the point is that there are no photos for a reason
<troy_s> it has nothing to do with the desire to have photos (aside from the functional issues regarding wallpapers of course)
* pmjdebruijn wonders about that reason...
<troy_s> I think I loosely described why
<pmjdebruijn> maybe I'm not getting the first sentence?
<pmjdebruijn> your point being that the SAPDFL doesn't want anything in without being Ubuntu related?
<troy_s> No
<pmjdebruijn> ok
<pmjdebruijn> then I definately don't understand. sorry
<troy_s> All of art and design is entirely about communication ultimately -- much like any of the other forms of language.  When you choose a photo / image / etc., you are going to communicate in the destination audience's mind -- it is unavoidable.
<troy_s> that said
<troy_s> he got burned once on a poorly planned implementation
<troy_s> and the overall result was to avoid all forms of communcation
<troy_s> (or at least try -- and if you look at the current trend in default wallpaper / gdm, the results would bear that notion out)
<pmjdebruijn> ah
<pmjdebruijn> understandable, but a shame...
<troy_s> Indeed.
<troy_s> Of course, once you resign yourself to the fact that effective art and design is going to communicate, and choose to follow that out, you need to decide overall what you intend to communicate and to whom.
<pmjdebruijn> I understand the problem
<troy_s> If we start attempting to really direct art and design without considering those very real effects, the pattern is no better than where it currently is.
<pmjdebruijn> but that requires immense knowledge of different cultures
<pmjdebruijn> which I severely lack
<troy_s> Yes.  That is one of the more fascinating issues regarding the nature of this situation.
* pmjdebruijn just wanted to have ready to rock pretty wallpapers 
<pmjdebruijn> my point being that Microsoft and Apple both supply out of the box cool wallpapers, and thus so should Ubuntu, to be at least on par with them...
<troy_s> Have you read Diana Fong's blog?
<troy_s> Well the wallpapers in BOTH of those
<troy_s> are examined and evaluated by a very well educated set of artists.
<pmjdebruijn> she's from RedHat right?
<troy_s> Yes... there is an interesting post regarding her wallpaper (which is amazing) and contrast.
<troy_s> It is loosely the belief that I have for wallpapers too -- that a wallpaper isn't something like a picture.
<pmjdebruijn> oh those are really sweet
<troy_s> It should be more like the wallpaper in your house -- not overwhelming -- enough to smatter all over your house or -- in the case of desktop wallpaper -- stare at for long periods without becoming too gaudy.
<pmjdebruijn> indeed
<kwwii> troy_s: pong
<kwwii> troy_s: can
<kwwii> 't see the screenshot on the OO icons
<kwwii> I'll install them later and check them out
<troy_s> kwwii yeah... it would be a sin if we found a community contribution that greatly
<troy_s> smoothed out human for gnome
<troy_s> (as the long silly diatribe in that desktop effects thread explains)
<kwwii> hehe
<kwwii> if they are decent tango icons for OO then we should probably take 'em
<troy_s> i think they are Human
<troy_s> not tango
<troy_s> as tango and human, in my eyes, are pretty far apart -- what's your thinking on it kwwii?
<kwwii> troy_s: yes, quite different in certain aspects
* kwwii just pushed another gdm 
<troy_s> not to mention colour tones being possibly the most recognizable
<troy_s> human is quite vibrant in Dave's choice of the default orange
<troy_s> kwwii you have a screenshot of the newer gdm?
<troy_s> kwwii?
<kwwii> troy_s: still working on things, have one in a bit
<kwwii> unfortunately inksacpe takes half an hour to render the bg
<kwwii> but that is much better than the desktop wallpaper ;-)
<troy_s> That is completely strange.
<troy_s> Oh I found out the source of your 2 != 1.995334999 SVG issue...
<troy_s> It is an option in Inkscape
<troy_s> Ship me your sources and let me try a render on my box -- I am running native 64 bit and I swear I have never seen rendering times that are like that.
<kwwii> I build it one or twice a week
<troy_s> Yeah, but you are running 32 bit yes?
<kwwii> yepp
<troy_s> I would be interested to benchmark it against a 64 bit render.
<troy_s> And see how much difference there is...
<troy_s> We could do an 'unofficial' benchmark based on your wallpaper.
<kwwii> yeah
<troy_s> is your source in the wallpaper push?
<kwwii> here is the gdm: http://sinecera.de/ubuntu_feisty_screen17.png
<kwwii> nope, no sources yet
<kwwii> wanted to clean things up first
<kwwii> here it is, if you want to play with it: http://sinecera.de/drawing1a.png
<kwwii> erm make that svg
<troy_s> Uh that's the png though
<troy_s> you have the svg there kwwii?
<troy_s> I just want to test render speeds.
<kwwii> replace the png with svg in that link
<troy_s> and that link gives 404
<troy_s> okie
<troy_s> Now where are you getting those times from?
<troy_s> Export
<kwwii> export as bitmap
<kwwii> page at 1600x1200
<kwwii> I also did one 1920x1280 (or whatever the res is)
<kwwii> if you get times much less than 2 hours let me know
<troy_s> give me a second
<troy_s> 2 hours?
<troy_s> it is approximately 1/3rd done now.
<troy_s> so far about 1:30 has expired.
<troy_s> kwwii?
<troy_s> now its half
<troy_s> 1:40
<troy_s> just over half
<troy_s> done
<troy_s> at 1920x1440
<troy_s> under 2 mins.
<troy_s> kwwii?
<kwwii> lol
<kwwii> I wonder why that is
<troy_s> Ok i am now timing it
<kwwii> which version are you using?
<troy_s> just a recent cvs pull
<troy_s> compiled on the 20th
<troy_s> but i have NEVER had render times like yous
<troy_s> yours
<kwwii> maybe they fixed it, it was a known bug
<troy_s> 30 seconds.
<troy_s> elapsed...
<troy_s> hold tight
<troy_s> i am also rendering it in the 1920 format
<troy_s> so my times will be a little higher.
<troy_s> 1 minute elapsed
<troy_s> Ok so at 1920x1280
<troy_s> final render time is
<troy_s> 2 minutes 48 seconds.
<kwwii> lol
<kwwii> a bit quicker
<troy_s> kwwii try a recompile, and if it still happens, but as I said
<kwwii> yeah, I will
<troy_s> mine has always blazed
<troy_s> even editing in standard resolution blurs/ etc
<troy_s> has been quite manageable with quite a few layers.
<troy_s> (although I have found I can decrease the complexity by providing custom shapes to blur as opposed to layers of objects)
<troy_s> You need several more layers in there to make editing that thing a little more manageable.
<troy_s> Its a bit of a pig right now... lol.
<troy_s> kwwii -- you could probably reduce it a helluva lot by creating a custom shape for the tan blur portions and integrating them into one layer.
<kwwii> troy_s: yepp, like I said, I hadn't cleaned it up yet :-)
<troy_s> kwwii are you doing a recompile?
<troy_s> even with a recompile, the differences shouldn't be 2 hours.
<troy_s> that is bloody ridiculous.
<kwwii> trying it out now
<kwwii> it is much faster
<kwwii> about 3 min
<kwwii> much better than about 3 hours
<troy_s> lol
<troy_s> Yeah, that seemed a bit silly.
<kwwii> ok, tired of gdm...doing the kubuntu logo a bit
<kwwii> pretty soon we can call this all kwubuntu
<kwwii> :p
<troy_s> yeah it will blur into a big strange hybrid of gradients.
<troy_s> lol
<kwwii> ok, one last change for gdm tonight
<kwwii> now I am done with it for a few days
#ubuntu-artwork 2007-02-22
<darkmatter> boom boom :D
<darkmatter> troy_s, ping
<darkmatter> troy_s, pushing some revisions to bzr... should be done soon
<darkmatter> ok.. its pushed
<darkmatter> afternoon coz_ -imoto xD
<coz_> darkmatter, evening guy
<darkmatter> coz_ I know you hate the slab and all... but have you seen the current cairo lovin' WIP version2?
<coz_> darkmatter,  no I haven't however there was another verison of slab i saw that was outstanding I forget the name of it
<coz_> but suse slab sucks
<coz_> link
<darkmatter> http://www.flickr.com/photo_zoom.gne?id=397838022&size=o
<coz_> nope don't like that one either
<darkmatter> gnome-main-menu version 2... but for the life of me cant figure out the changes in the theme format
<darkmatter> coz_ if you mean the USP I'll kill ya'... that bloody thing is bloated and an affront to usability -_-
<andreasn> does it work well with the buttons? I found myself adding a link to the home folder in the previous one
<andreasn> on the panel
<darkmatter> andreasn, yup.. works nice...
<coz_> darkmatter, slab is for children to learn linux as far as i am concerned.. it has no real place on an adult system
<troy_s> darkmatter: On glory?
<darkmatter> you can show all your gtkbookmarks too
<andreasn> darkmatter: cool. I tried slab in order to test some 32x32 icons and got stuck
<darkmatter> I just disabled it in gconf cause it makes the menu fscking huge
<darkmatter> andreasn, but its not a clean hack (yet).. I had to manually install some of the files due to the svn branch being incomplete... but I'm working on a proper build
<darkmatter> troy_s, yup
<darkmatter> coz_... its not an ideal solution in terms of efficency.. but its cleaner navigation than *shudder* menus ;)
<darkmatter> I loath and despise menus
<troy_s> darkmatter: Have you seen raster's video in e?
<troy_s> its bloody amazing and answers a lot of questions regarding xcomposite etc.
<darkmatter> troy_s, which vid?? he has several
<troy_s> He is a bloody bright guy.
<darkmatter> yup
<troy_s> The one from the linux presentation recently.
<darkmatter> ahhh yup
<troy_s> It's too bad many of the e zealots are pimply little pricks who need to have their asses kicked.
<andreasn> I'm curios about Gimmie, that seems to be a interesting approach
<coz_> andreasn, tried gimme on beryl didn't work for me
<darkmatter> troy_s, http://www.flickr.com/photo_zoom.gne?id=395190585&size=o <-- current svn greatness
<troy_s> wtf is that?!?
<troy_s> e?
<darkmatter> andreasn, gimmie is cool.. but the applet version has some serious focus bugs
<troy_s> geezus.
<darkmatter> troy_s, yup
<troy_s> darkmatter: Is that your desky?
<darkmatter> ANIMATED ICONS!
<darkmatter> yup
<darkmatter> thats mye install
<darkmatter> cvs rocks
<troy_s> Yeah we shoudl bloody collaborate on an e design pattern
<troy_s> we could probably really clobber a home run
<troy_s> it has ++everything++ that i have griped about missing from gnome etc
<darkmatter> troy_s, whats really amazing is how fast it is even with all the bling
<troy_s> darkmatter: You running edgy, and if so, what is the best way to compile from CVS?  the last time i tried it, it was a nightmare.
<troy_s> darkmatter: Yeah, that video has the reasoning in it...
<troy_s> less overheads to calls to xcomposite
<darkmatter> troy_s... scriptie
<darkmatter> I'll grab a linky
<troy_s> easy e?
<darkmatter> easy_e17.sh
<troy_s> I just finished the bloody strokework for u2... i could use some compiling time
<troy_s> wallpaper is a drag.
<troy_s> i need to throw myself into a kwwii coma next to fuddle with grads and such.  i don't know if i have it in me.
<darkmatter> http://omicron.homeip.net/projects/
<darkmatter> err
<darkmatter> http://omicron.homeip.net/projects/easy_e17/easy_e17.sh
<darkmatter> brb
<coz_> e17?
<troy_s> thanks darkmatter
<troy_s> coz_ enlightenment
<coz_> yuk tried that on sabayon did n't like that either who is designing this stuff? :)
<troy_s> watch the video if you want to see its ability.
<coz_> troy_s, no never id dlike it
<troy_s> erm... it is the most versatile, lean, etc window manager available
<troy_s> you need to apply your artist cap and see past the defaults
<coz_> well maybe so
<troy_s> it is a helluva designer dream
<coz_> but it looks terrible
<coz_> i know you can change it but
<troy_s> so does ubuntu... that doesn't stop you.
<troy_s> lol
<coz_> I love ubuntu
<coz_> :)
<troy_s> ubuntu's look?
<troy_s> are you bonkers?
<coz_> troy_s, well I like the look of gnome yes it is simple doesn't get in the way and it is logical
<troy_s> yes... try white e17
<coz_> no
<coz_> no way :)
<troy_s> (although it is a bit white sterile... very minimalist)
<troy_s> No clunky 2 pixel bevels etc.
<troy_s> it is a very very very well designed window manager.
<troy_s> Although again, the defaults leave a little to be desired.
<coz_>  troy_s well maybe so I know darkmatter likes it as well, but i thought fluxbox was nicer
<coz_> more simple
<coz_> if that is the correct name of it "_
<troy_s> Not a chance
<darkmatter> coz_... flux box isnt a shell/DE though.... window managers dont count :P
<troy_s> fluxbox isn't even close to the simplicity of e
<coz_> darkmatter, ok
<troy_s> watch that video to see the memory differences too.
<coz_> still I like gnome with beryl that is all I need to get work done
<troy_s> It really is the future...
<troy_s> beryl is a clunky nightmare hack.
<darkmatter> coz_ e may be the god of bling... but it has incredibly clean code
<troy_s> sorry to sound rude, but it is true
<coz_> troy_s, dude no way it works really well
<troy_s> e does it _properly_
<darkmatter> flux is fugly for something so simple
<darkmatter> as in the code is fugly
<coz_> darkmatter, well my experience with all of them was on sabayon which gives you the opportunity to use any one fo them I liked fluxbox the best
<coz_> but Ill tell you waht i will go back into ababyon andtry it for more than 5 minutes :)
<coz_> if i change my mind i will tell you ")
<darkmatter> coz_... look at the code for beryl.... its really dirty duct tape workarounds that dont fix problems... they just hide them... kinda like ms does in windows
<coz_> darkmatter, yeah I know I have read that but beryl  is nice none theless
<darkmatter> they plaster a bunch of fugly patches in multiple layers and call it a fork... rofl
<troy_s> Yep.
<coz_> compiz is to slow in new things
<troy_s> It really is a kludge because the lower level architecture hasn't been thought through like Raster has.
<troy_s> Check out the demo with six videos playing at differing levels of translucency to see how elegant his work is.
<coz_> well quinn lives just 20 minutes from me so I have to support beryl :)
<darkmatter> bah... silliness
<darkmatter> :P
<troy_s> Quinn should rethink his approach.
<coz_> i do have to say that they contacted me to redo the beryl icons at the last minute, got 90 % of them done and then they didn't use them
<darkmatter> if quinn livd 20 minutes from me I'd head on over and bitch slap him for beryl -_-
<troy_s> It really is riding a wave that will drive things into the ditch.
<troy_s> lol
<troy_s> lol
<troy_s> We need to seriously consider the long term effects of relying on 3rd party closed drivers
<coz_> darkmatter, well guy come on... I have used both beryl and compiz, and you were the one who convinced me to switch to beryl
<troy_s> it is an ethical, semantic, and logical nightmare.
<coz_> troy_s, I prefer closed drivers myself
<coz_> as wellas closed apps
<troy_s> eek
<darkmatter> compiz is slow atm and not the best because the low level stuff is still being worked on... but its being done in a proper manner.. lots of design.. not freaky version bumps from patching
<coz_> i want quality from payed programmers
<troy_s> coz_  that is an arcane and obsolete manner of thinking.
<coz_> troy_s, perhaps but realisitc
<troy_s> Not even close.
<troy_s> Many free software developers get paid.
<troy_s> Many pieces of free software code are infinitely better in architectural design than any closed source equivalent.
<coz_> troy_s, the day an open source app matches photoshop i will agree with you
<troy_s> Photoshop is a completely limited application.
<darkmatter> coz_, nope... I do like proprietary good to an extent... but really... if you want closed do it the novell way
<troy_s> With a very small target base.
<troy_s> In the end, output is output.  Use what you wish.
<darkmatter> initial dev in a closed enviroment so random patches dont frak things up
<darkmatter> then one the project is mature  enough
<darkmatter> dump the sources to svn
<coz_> troy_s, well yes but it offers many options that cannot be found in other apps especially open source
<troy_s> Photoshop has really stunk for a number of years... apparently you misremember the entire era when _all_ of their plugins failed to work in the 8bit per channel to 16 bit per channel migration.
<troy_s> etc.
<coz_> I am in a bad mood also so I may just play devil's advocate here ")
<troy_s> coz_  and you need to look at imagemagick
<troy_s> or graphicsmagick
<coz_> troy_s, yeah I know but I like gui
<troy_s> as the algs in those two apps simply kill photos to piss.
<troy_s> try side by each blurs etc.
<troy_s> you will see what i mean.
<darkmatter> coz_, you waant scary.. look at the "sources" fo emerald
<darkmatter> _ONE_ file
<darkmatter> o_O
<coz_> darkmatter, that one I can really believe emerald is really slow
<coz_> querky
<troy_s> they are all moot considering they _rely_ on closed drivers, and that defeats the purpose.
<coz_> troy_s, you mean like nvidia or something?
<darkmatter> coz_, quinn has no respect for any kind of code standards.. and he's a stubborn lesbian to boot
<troy_s> espeically when raster has explained the rather logical and well thought out approach.
<troy_s> lol
<troy_s> darkmatter you are making me laugh out loud.
<troy_s> coz_: yes... nvidia is a blight on free software
<darkmatter> troy_s, lol
<coz_> darkmatter, well I am just angry they made me redo the beryl icons and then not use them
<troy_s> as is ati (hopefully amd will rectify that)
<coz_> ati will never catch up
<troy_s> coz_ you are kidding right?
<coz_> troy_s, well i hope not I love nividia
<troy_s> lol
<coz_> ")
<troy_s> your allies are questionable.
<darkmatter> plus... emerald themes should be handleed like metacity or xfwm4... an emerald folder in the theme dir
<troy_s> Rather like getting in bed with the devil... but to each their own.
<coz_> troy_s, lol
<coz_> i am not a foss guy
<coz_> by any standard
<troy_s> If you care about those artsy notions of free and democratic societies, you are obliged to be.
<darkmatter> troy_s, thats where I've met coz_!!!! he's the toon saddam insane from southpark!
<troy_s> Read some of Stallman's work and get back to me.
<troy_s> Lol.
<troy_s> LOL
<darkmatter> bad coz_!!! you made the devil cry!
<coz_> if someone said gimp is free so which do you want photoshop or gimp ... i would go out and by photoshop
<troy_s> Gimp is archaic
<troy_s> has nothing to do with FOSS
<troy_s> or the principles
<coz_> understatement
<troy_s> For most users however, gimp would probably suffice
<coz_> my favorite applicatin is corel painter
<darkmatter> troy_s, gimp would be great... if they'd actually implement a new ui and a new backend ;)
<troy_s> (considering they are shelling out 200 for a crimped version of photoshop elements)
<coz_> I had contact with the origianl develpers great guys
<troy_s> darkmatter: I think it simply requires inkscape to supercede it
<coz_>  was going to buy some of their code until they sold it to corel
<troy_s> with some node based editing.
<troy_s> actually, inkscape with a tablet and using the calligraphy tool renders some bloody incredible illustration work.
<darkmatter> coz_, I wanna work for apple!!!!
<darkmatter> >_>
<troy_s> it is fast as hell too.
<coz_> darkmatter, traitor
<troy_s> bah
<andreasn> darkmatter: there is this interface professional dude that is working on gimp now though, and um, there is GEGL
<troy_s> too bad steve jobs didn't die when he had his chance
<troy_s> he is worse than gates ever was -- and drove his company into the paltry 4% from 97% market share.
<darkmatter> NeXT FTW!
<coz_> at least troy_s and I agree about apple
<troy_s> steve jobs is the snake oil salesman thief of the modern era.
<coz_> AMEN
<troy_s> andreasn: cegl is amazing stuff
<darkmatter> troy_s, true... but hes damn good at it!
<darkmatter> :D
<troy_s> if only it would mature to a point of getting attention.
<coz_> so is bill gates for all that
<troy_s> not even close to steve jobs
<troy_s> and no, he isn't good at it
<troy_s> he drove his company into the ground
<coz_> well couldn't think of anyother comparison really
<troy_s> he is a clever charlatan
<troy_s> got fired from his own company
<darkmatter> the best kind!
<darkmatter> lol
<troy_s> and returns as the salvation somehow... go figure.
<troy_s> worse yet, he is probably the greatest peddler of drm/crm/nightmare out there.  (although he is backpeddling on that too now... lol)
<darkmatter> troy_s, be would have been the new apple if it wasnt fer the snooty "offer me more money!" attitude during negotiations
<troy_s> look at what he did to xerox in the early years... he is nothing more than a low level thief.
<darkmatter> thats the only reason apple approached jobs
<troy_s> yeah be turned 400 million into 11 million.
<troy_s> amazing eh?
<troy_s> be was offered 400 million iirc from apple for their code base, and then sold to palm for 11.
<troy_s> lol
<troy_s> on a side note dark
<troy_s> what is your experience with the underlying architecture for themeing in e?
<troy_s> and does entrance work now?
<troy_s> the deb file i installed had a borked entranced
<darkmatter> heh... at least os x is better than vista... but the whole "buy our hardware which is freakishly overpriced... cause even if you own osx... installing it on non apple hardware is theft!!!!!"
<darkmatter> is eww
<troy_s> all of apple is eww to anyone with half a grey cell.
<troy_s> darkmatter: Does exhibit get compiled with easy e?
<troy_s> or do i need to pass that as a param?
<darkmatter> troy_s, yup
<darkmatter> its in the list
<darkmatter> so is entropy and extract and ephoto and emphasis
<darkmatter> though the new ephoto and emphasis arent really functional atm
<troy_s> unfamiliar with emphasis
<darkmatter> its a rb like client for mpd
<troy_s> did you see his 'rage' demo?
<troy_s> and where the hell can you get rage?
<darkmatter> nope
<troy_s> that was pretty slick.
<troy_s> raster's media center hack
<darkmatter> ohh... that thing
<darkmatter> yup
<darkmatter> didnt know the name
<darkmatter> it looks awesome
<troy_s> feck it bogged out
<troy_s> evas chunked out
<troy_s> configure.in:88: error: possibly undefined macro: AC_PATH_GENERIC
<troy_s>       If this token and others are legitimate, please use m4_pattern_allow.
<troy_s>       See the Autoconf documentation.
* darkmatter feeds coz_ beryl and waits for the inevitable hospitalization to incur 
<darkmatter> :O
<coz_> cute
<troy_s> darkmatter: when did you compile last?
<coz_> ")
<darkmatter> troy_s, three days ago
<troy_s> grr feck
<darkmatter> Now Playing: Sucker Train Blues by Velvet Revolver from Contraband (0:12/4:27)
<troy_s> darkmatter: Does easy take care of all the depends?
<darkmatter> troy_s, no... you need to install them
<darkmatter> one sec
<troy_s> dammit
<troy_s> that is probably it then... hopefully it is a retro m4
<troy_s> that i need to bump up
<darkmatter> troy_s, http://www.ubuntuforums.org/showpost.php?p=533202&postcount=1
<troy_s> danke
<darkmatter> np
<coz_> damn i actually looked at that link
<troy_s> edge is compiling now.
<coz_> have to take a break after bein gin #beryl be back
<darkmatter> troy_s, http://www.flickr.com/photo_zoom.gne?id=397661996&context=set-72157594488098254&size=o
<darkmatter> thats what Glory looks like atm
<troy_s> your e is more ballsy.
<troy_s> what do you use as a replacement for the tray notifies in e dark?
<darkmatter> troy, I just use ibox... it animates notifications for minimized apps
<darkmatter> I dont do the tray
<darkmatter> :P
<troy_s> it does animate eh?
<troy_s> that's all that i was concerned with
<darkmatter> yup... and how depends on the theme used
<darkmatter> like.... winter does a popup iirc
<troy_s> really?
<troy_s> that is darkness that one you are running isn't it?
<darkmatter> detour floats text overlay on the icon
<darkmatter> troy_s, yup
<troy_s> darkmatter: Do you know if you can turn an icon view on in evm or increase the sizes?
<troy_s> i imagine you can, but i don't quite see where.
<darkmatter> troy_s, not sure
<darkmatter> I havent really dug through the guts yet
<darkmatter> troy_s, http://njpatel.blogspot.com/index.html
<darkmatter> chech the tracker post
<darkmatter> *check
<troy_s> tracker post?
<troy_s> tst?
<troy_s> darkmatter: ?
<darkmatter> yup
<darkmatter> the tst one
<darkmatter> lookin slick it is
<darkmatter> anyway... bbl
<darkmatter> the missus wants at the puter
<lapo> hi there
<mvgh> hi, lapo
<yharrow> hey
<yharrow> how do I join ubuntu-artwork?
<yharrow> dave84, :) there is a typo in your interfaces file
<yharrow> do sudo gedit /etc/network/interfaces
<yharrow> change the last line to #wireless-keys:
<yharrow> instead of wireless-key s
<yharrow> hey
<yharrow> anyone here?
<klepas> yharrow: moin
<darkmatter> mornin all
<klepas> moinmoin darkmatter
<yharrow> hey kepas
<yharrow> you still there?
<yharrow> klepas*
* kwwii pushed a gdm and session splash for the next herd (deadline today), check it out if you're interested
<yharrow> anybody here?
<andreasn> yharrow: hi
<yharrow> hey andreas
<yharrow> andreas do you know how I can join the artwork team?
<andreasn> yes, subscribe to the ubuntu-art mailing list
<andreasn> there is also some ubuntu-art team in launchpad
<andreasn> meaning you will get notified when there is artwork bugs opened and stuff
<yharrow> all I need to do is subscribe?
<andreasn> I think so anyway
<yharrow> andreas, are you ont the art team?
<andreasn> well, I'm subscribed to the list, on that launchpad-thingy and one of the authors of tangerine-icon-theme
<andreasn> even though I focus most of my efforts on gnome upstream
<yharrow> niiice..
<yharrow> so how do I get onto thye launchpad team?
<yharrow> or rather how do i get on the artwork team in launchpad
<andreasn> hm, it was like a million years since I got into that
<andreasn> I'll look it up
<yharrow> thanks man
<andreasn> https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-art
<andreasn> just add yourself, no approval needed
<yharrow> oh ok will do
<yharrow> thanks a ton man
<andreasn> no problem
<andreasn> hope you can contribute something cool
<yharrow> btw have you noticed that in certain places the icons are totally conflicting with the human theme?
<yharrow> like the translate icon in most apps
<yharrow> and get help
<yharrow> at least in gaim and some others
<andreasn> hm, wonder why those even have icons
<yharrow> well, from my design perspective almost everything should have an icon
<yharrow> but rather have no icon then a horrible one
<yharrow> :)
<yharrow> so yeah
<yharrow> btw why shouldnt they have icons?
<yharrow> I would like to understand
<andreasn> well, there is the osx approach that labels should be good and no icons in menus, the windows way that if there is a toolbar icon you should have a corresponding one in the menus
<andreasn> and there is the gnome way that says that icons are pretty pictures
<yharrow> do you mean that you feel some of the gnome icons are random?
<yharrow> and there just for the sake of being there
<yharrow> ?
<andreasn> some are totally random and clutters the interface
<yharrow> ok, Im beginning to understand what you mean. Can you give me an example?
<andreasn> did you ever see garretts industrial theme for firefox, where everything in the menus had a icon?
<yharrow> no I have not. is it default in gnome?
<yharrow> :) would probably be something to see the way your describing it
<andreasn> no, it's not, I think it shipped with NLD9 or something
<andreasn> http://www.tigert.com/archives/2005/09/15/ive-created-a-monster/
<yharrow> can you give me an example of  an icon in ubuntu that is not coordinated and simply clutters
<yharrow> am reading web page
<andreasn> the most recent inkscape builds are a quite horrible example of too many icons in the menus
<yharrow> need pasword to access garrets theme
<yharrow> hmm
<andreasn> even though some of the more visually oriented stuff use pictograms that actually help, like the stuff in Path
<yharrow> gonna open inkscape
<andreasn> anyway, I better get back to work
<yharrow> ok
<yharrow> thanks for pointing that stuff out though
<yharrow> I think I agree with some of what your saying
<yharrow> Ill ttyl
<nysosym> hi there :)
<h4writer> kwwii, I see you're in charge for artwork in feisty. Can you look to http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?p=2196113. I think it will be a good improvement.
<kwwii> h4writer: first off, I am making the artwork for feisty, not in charge of it :p
<h4writer> :p ok, I guess you understood me;-)
<kwwii> boah, and second, I am not a registered member of the forum yet
<h4writer> ok, I will put it on imageshack
<h4writer> (no member of forum?!)
<h4writer> http://img513.imageshack.us/my.php?image=yelper9.png
<troy_s> forums aren't popular
<troy_s> and rather useless as 'yet another bloody thing to keep track of' for the busy folks.
<kwwii> h4writer: registered now
<h4writer> (y)
<kwwii> so, I think that they do not stand out enough with that light of grey
<h4writer> and with a hover on (like in gnome-control-center)?
<troy_s> might help to have a current to compare against h4writer
<troy_s> as in show the 'current' look versus your mock.
<troy_s> so that it is easier to say positive direction or negative...
<h4writer> (just click on that ? on your taskbar in ubuntu:p)
#ubuntu-artwork 2007-02-23
<h4writer> do I need to take a scrnshot?
<troy_s> if you are offering something up for comparison it seems to make logical sense
<troy_s> otherwise you can't exactly flip back and forth visually easy enough...
<troy_s> just a thought, not that my opinion matters.  i would suggest it will make it easier for kwwii to evaluate against what he is currently working with though.
<h4writer> ok
<kwwii> h4writer: if the content text was a bit smaller, I could see using such a light grey, as the text would stand out due to it's size
<h4writer> I'm opening gimp
<kwwii> why not oragne?
<h4writer> that's the old one: http://img87.imageshack.us/my.php?image=oldhelpcentrefq1.png
<h4writer> (I'm not that good in layout, but I think it's an improvement. If you want I want change some things, but like I said I'm not that good (especially with details)
<h4writer> So you think the left bar isn't good?
<kwwii> I love the left bar - it looks amazing
<kwwii> ;-)
<h4writer> okey
<kwwii> I was only talking about the color of the title text
<kwwii> and/or size of it
<kwwii> but rather than make the text bigger, make the other text a bit smaller
<h4writer> (just ripped it from gnome-control-panel:p)
<kwwii> very nice, much better than edgy
<kwwii> another choice would be to make the grey color a bit darker
<h4writer> I think it's that fresh, because the grey is light
<troy_s> seems that grey is very unhumanish no?
<troy_s> kwwii?
<kwwii> I agree with that totally, but i think it still needs to stand out somehow, however slightly to show that it is a title
<troy_s> are you talking about the font colour or the pill?
<kwwii> troy_s: I think that there is a lot of very human incfluences in that screen
<troy_s> kwwii it also, and i know you have a long list of crap to deal with
<h4writer> maybe with some icons before it?
<troy_s> that the 'orange' should be locked into place hue wise
<h4writer> like a list
<kwwii> I am talking about the grey color of the text at the top right
<troy_s> probably snag it from the folder icon and say 'this is ubuntu orange' (not logo)
<troy_s> so that the hues are the same
<troy_s> across all uses.
<kwwii> troy_s: if we had a decent palette ready it would not be a problem
<troy_s> kwwii ;)
<troy_s> no shit
<troy_s> kwwii the problem is that sabdfl has taken this backasswards appraoch
<troy_s> now it is retrofitting poorly combined colours with
<troy_s> a 'larger' palette
<troy_s> the orange for example, simply breaks it.
<kwwii> oh, I think he knows much less about this than you think
<kwwii> it is more of a feeling for him, I think
<troy_s> the tan and the orange are like... oblique
<troy_s> they _cannot_ be reconciled
<troy_s> they are leagues off on value at the very least
<troy_s> hue wise i suppose we could kludge around localize the tan, localize the orange and distribute accordingly
<troy_s> but _something_ has to give somewhere.
<kwwii> sure
<kwwii> that is very apparent
<troy_s> take the degrees off of tan hue from orange and distribute around using a quad, or a triplet, or...
<troy_s> but even still... the value sucks
<kwwii> my biggest worry is that I, in my haste, create something off-base
<troy_s> i would need to experiment with the thing as I haven't actually looked at where the bloody orange falls on the wheel
<troy_s> you know what?  anything off base, if it follows an bloody architecture, is leagues better than where it sits.
<kwwii> once feisty artwork is out the door we can work on this
<troy_s> even if it is questionable in execution.
<kwwii> yeah, but creating something only to change it right away is stupid too
<troy_s> my thinking is that we should consider what is the more important hue
<troy_s> the tan or the orange
<troy_s> and anchor from that
<troy_s> kwwii yep
<kwwii> and people wasting time on testing whether it works is worth money
<troy_s> kwwii ultimately though, the main problem is that there is no pattern.  it is very throw shit at wall and see if it sticks, which with _zero_ architecture, is a complete subjective and bikeshed bound waste of time.
<h4writer> I thought there was a color scheme?
<troy_s> no
<troy_s> there _was_ one for many ages ago, but a braindead imp could realize it is being followed exactly 0% of the time
<kwwii> troy_s: yepp, true as well
<troy_s> kwwii if you manage to win that argument, it is deadly easy for us to say
<troy_s> A) wallpaper should be middle grey in tone (18% value) based on hues x/y/z/a/b
<kwwii> even if the rule is "break the rule" at least do it in an organized and reproducable way :-)
<troy_s> b) icons say are more saturated... but still use x/y/z/a/b
<kwwii> such palettes are living documents
<troy_s> the nice thing about having those architectural elements in place is that it lets you say 'that is borked out of the gate'
<kwwii> but without a good base you loose track
<troy_s> palettes should be locked.
<h4writer> (i'm looking to all this text as a n00b:p I didn't know there was such a 'theory' behind it
<troy_s> that is the whole point of them... they
<kwwii> troy_s: a base palette is locked
<troy_s> are meant to be a specific 'subset' to communicate elements.  if you round them out to include every hue, they are no longer a palette.
<kwwii> and an extended one is certainly needed
<troy_s> the idea is to create 'grass', for example, with the restricted colours...
<kwwii> as many companies have per product cycle
<troy_s> that creates the mood.
<troy_s> which is why good brand palettizing has some lovely work -- you see stylized sky motifs that are green or ..., stylized flowers that are xxx, etc.
<troy_s> all the while you know that the colours dictate the consistency.
<troy_s> which is again, one of tangos weaknesses
<troy_s> etc.
<troy_s> the palette is too broad and effectively loses its consistency
<troy_s> h4writer: yes, there are a good deal of solid books on colour theory (without getting into the rather questionable notions of colour psychology)
<troy_s> colour psychology for all intents and purposes is a bunk concept.  they are all culturally learned responses.
<h4writer> nice
<troy_s> h4writer: If you plan on reading some, start with some of the more mainstream oil painter style versions.  they are pretty practical in approach.
<h4writer> but still I think the one I give is better than the probably correct edgy help centre.
<h4writer> (my intention is not to not follow the rules
<h4writer> is just I don't know them yet)
<kwwii> troy_s: if tango was smart, the would create a real palette and use the current one as an icon palette base only
<kwwii> but anyway, enough about tango
<h4writer> I will definitely start reading it
<troy_s> kwwii I think that when you implement a limited palette across a good number of installations, they look wonderful.
<troy_s> look at some of metisse's work for example
<troy_s> you simply see the 'set' when you look at different paintings
<troy_s> because the palette is identical.
<kwwii> better yet, I have worked with branding stuff from Siemens, Fujitsu, IBM, Novell, etc
<kwwii> it is amazing how they think of everything
<kwwii> in one solid package
<troy_s> absolutely!
<troy_s> that's the whole idea
<troy_s> seeing the forest
<troy_s> not the trees
<kwwii> small, definable, usable
<troy_s> a good friend of mine started up the drawing board
<troy_s> (huge hip hop design firm that did many many albums in the hip hop heyday)
<troy_s> and he was a huge palette stickler
<troy_s> it works regardless of the colours you choose... just stick to the set.
<troy_s> (it also forces a certain creativity because you can't choose 'red' if you don't have it.)
<kwwii> yepp, definitely
<troy_s> the result can be quite stunning in the hands of a gifted artist.
<kwwii> it defines a style
<troy_s> and the internal consistency is invaluable
<kwwii> and you have to be a good artist to create works in a given style
<kwwii> but without such info it would be impossible
<troy_s> well that is where we get a massive boost from having such a palette
<kwwii> aka what happened to crystal
<troy_s> if our palette is say, 5-6 primary hues
<troy_s> you get a certain degree of 'style' simply by implementing the palette
<kwwii> the thing is, 4 are predefined
<kwwii> yellow, orange, red and black
<troy_s> well yes.
<troy_s> but those aren't a palette thus far
<kwwii> and you have to include black as it is a major element of the logo
<troy_s> those are more like 'coke red'
<troy_s> the palette from what i can see
<troy_s> is loosely rooted in either the tan
<troy_s> or the orange
<troy_s> (not the logo orange)
<troy_s> the orange in the icons
<kwwii> I would want 12 or so colors and 3 or 4 variations of each to be able to decide on a final selection
<troy_s> one could argue that with that monochrome wallpaper the tan is probably the more important.
<troy_s> 12 hues is pretty much a full spectrum
<troy_s> rgb/cmy
<troy_s> that's six and covers a good deal
<kwwii> well, one would settle on about 8 I guess
<troy_s> lol
<kwwii> but looking at that many would be good
<kwwii> 6 at the least
<troy_s> it would be nice to have a very finite set
<kwwii> very least
<troy_s> at the very least to steer the consistency
<kwwii> 4 main colors, and a few others
<troy_s> (values aside)
<troy_s> yes
<kwwii> at least two tans
<troy_s> % bases of the whole
<kwwii> a reddish and an orange version
<troy_s> most designer selections offer you a triplet
<kwwii> having a yellowish on would not be bad either
<kwwii> sure, and then triplets of those :-)
<kwwii> anyway
<troy_s> it would be nice to have one.
<kwwii> time for bed
<troy_s> i think we can agree on that.
<troy_s> nicht kiwi
<troy_s> i must mop
<troy_s> lol
<h4writer> kwwii, sorry to interrupt, but I'm going to my bed. Now what's the state of the help centre. Will you look for it, so it makes feisty. Or do I still need to do some things?
<kwwii> I, like a dipshit, left the mercedes door open last night and the battery was dead, which means I have to get up early after it is done charging and put it back in the car so my wife can go to work
<kwwii> h4writer: will you be online tomorrow?
<h4writer> nop, got a party
<kwwii> h4writer: it is too late for the next herd anyway
<kwwii> today was the deadline
<h4writer> saterday I will be online
<kwwii> h4writer: so if we put it in soon we might still make it through
<kwwii> h4writer: I'd like to check out how to make it look best though
<h4writer> ok
<kwwii> h4writer: which time zone are you in?
<h4writer> +1
<h4writer> europe, Brussel
<kwwii> excellent, I am in germany
<h4writer> nice, so that will not be a problem
<kwwii> we will definitely talk about this more, ok?
<h4writer> ok
<h4writer> I see you saterday
<h4writer> alright?
<kwwii> great, see you then!
<h4writer> bye
<kwwii> bye
<kwwii> night troy_s, all
<kwwii> troy_s: btw. I got a response from the media center people
<kwwii> telling me that not much is done yet
<kwwii> look at the webpage
<kwwii> , etc
<kwwii> that seems to be about it
<troy_s> kwwii well we
<kwwii> the guy who is/was doing it had a hardware problem or such
<troy_s> should maybe offer a brainstorm?
<kwwii> definitely
<troy_s> how about you email me a set of your ideas
<troy_s> and we can see if we can round something out
<troy_s> into at least a solid starting point
<troy_s> see if it flies.
<kwwii> how about we talk with them first to decide exactly what they need?
<troy_s> sure... see what their expectations are.
<kwwii> I can imagine that they have different needs than the normal ubuntu distro
<troy_s> that said, it might be nice to bring _something_ to the table.
<kwwii> see what limitations there are
<troy_s> (hopefully they are going with myth)
<troy_s> seems like a no brainer
<kwwii> get all the info first
<troy_s> i already see the language issue
<kwwii> and then walk blindly into the forest
<kwwii> :p
<troy_s> hopefully that can be negotiated.
<kwwii> yeah
<troy_s> well yeah... if you have been in contact
<troy_s> see what you can glean
<troy_s> i am ok for meetings over the next week
<troy_s> then i start another show
<kwwii> I'll respond tomorrow
<kwwii> for tonight I am done
<troy_s> aight
<troy_s> chat soon
<kwwii> see you soon
<nysosym> i will go to bed now, my screen burns in my eyes ^^
<nysosym> have a nice my friends :)
<nysosym> hope to see u soon
<h4writer> ping troy_s
<h4writer> question is https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Official?action=AttachFile&do=get&target=ubuntu-palette.png good as color scheme?
<troy_s> how come there are so many folks in here?
<pmjdebruijn> so many?
<coz_> lol
<troy_s> yes... 21 is more than usual.
<troy_s> greets coz_, missed you there.
<coz_> troy_s, greetings in return ")
<coz_> well this channel gets more and more chatty everyday ")
* HorD is away: Ausente por ahora. (www.ubuntu-lat.org)
* HorD is back. (www.ubuntu-lat.org)
<coz_> afternoon
<coz_> question... i woul dlike to use keybindings to open/close the cd tray  particularly close it after about 6 econds...I can make the keybinding in gome to open it but the keybinding toclose itisinmetacity and with beryl running that doesn't work
<coz_> wrong channel
#ubuntu-artwork 2007-02-24
<h4writer> kwwii, are you there?
<h4writer> can we talk about the help centre now?
<h4writer> kwwii, are you there?
<reuna> moo
<troy_s> greets h4writer
<troy_s> baa
<kwwii> h4writer: now I am
<troy_s> greets green fuzzy fruit.
<troy_s> how be ye?
<kwwii> troy_s: actually, thanks to nintendo nobody asks me why my nick K-WorldWarII
<kwwii> now they ask me why I am so proud to own a wii
<kwwii> ;-)
<troy_s> that's bloody hilarious.
<troy_s> i still think of the green fuzzy fruit.
<kwwii> ;-)
<troy_s> fizz boom the second makes me think of an old oil panting on the wall with you in some strange pose standing on a rhino and wearing a pith helmet.
<kwwii> lol
<kwwii> so here is the mouth gdm: http://sinecera.de/ubuntu_feisty_screen19.png
<kwwii> thinking about making a whole theme around that...makes me think of desert, egyptian kinda stuff
<kwwii> using lighter colors though, more sandy colors
<troy_s> has sab offered (*sigh*) thoughts on the work yet?
<h4writer> hoi kwii
<h4writer> *kwwii
<h4writer> I changed some of the layout of help centre
<h4writer> is it good to give the forum post?
<h4writer> http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?p=2204580
<troy_s> kwwii: But I do think that beginning to think along the higher level lines makes more sense -- although I don't know if the egyptian / desert motif will fly with sab.  Hell I have no idea if you could pitch a grad to sabdfl.
<h4writer> troy_s, kwwii: the last version I created: http://img377.imageshack.us/my.php?image=yelprb1.png
<h4writer> I think I found a solution to the leftbar (so it looks more button-like) and I changed the color of the bar to orange
<troy_s> slow as hell.
<h4writer> http://img377.imageshack.us/img377/8539/yelprb1.png
<h4writer> is that faster
<troy_s> i got it eventually...
<h4writer> (do I need to give the previous version and/or the version now in edgy?)
<andreasn> h4writer: nice stuff
<andreasn> hm, should probably open a bug to make the life-boy be picked up from the theme
<h4writer> (previous one: http://img503.imageshack.us/img503/8122/helpcentregi3.png)
<h4writer> (how it is now: http://img526.imageshack.us/img526/1420/oldhelpcentrewg6.png)
<h4writer> troy_s: and what are your remarks?
<troy_s> i don't have any... they are all extremely minor tweaks.
<troy_s> i would say overall, they are an improvement and i would put them in.  that said, ...
<h4writer> andreasn, that's my intention. So it get refreshed.
<troy_s> there is far too much twiddling over minor details in foss.
<h4writer> Should I do what andreasn says, or ... and what do I need to do exactly
<andreasn> h4writer: huh? make it themable? oh, I'll just ask shauwn about that
<h4writer> andreasn, ok I guess that's no problem
<h4writer> andreasn, so you will ask?
<andreasn> sure
<h4writer> thanks
<h4writer> do you need some special files or something?
<h4writer> or will the .png be okey
<andreasn> oh, I was just referring to the life-boy illustration
<troy_s> h4writer: He is talking about the image behind on the left.
<troy_s> h4writer: It should follow the theme's lead and not be hard coded.
<h4writer> okey
<h4writer> so that's called a life-boy ... Now I understand I was not with you
<andreasn> I think it is, not sure, it's called livboj in swedish :)
<troy_s> life buoy
<troy_s> i think is the term
<troy_s> pronounced "boy"
<kwwii> h4writer: is this stuff already in bzr?
<h4writer> bzr?
<troy_s> ack
<troy_s> h4writer: If you make your changes to the actual 'package' in bzr, it makes it easier for kwwii to add things
<troy_s> http://wiki.ubuntu.com/Bzr or one of the other tutorials.
<kwwii> h4writer: so you'r output will be a tar.gz source deb pacakge?
<kwwii> bzr makes it much easier with getting the latest version out, etc.
<h4writer> okey
<h4writer> I'm now installing it
<troy_s> h4writer: Basically figure out what package the tweaks go into, bzr branch <package uri> mybranch
<troy_s> then make changes and push them back up to the server
<troy_s> then kwwii just does a bzr merge
<troy_s> (as he is one of the only folks with write permissions to the official repos)
<h4writer> okey, play time:p
<troy_s> h4writer: It also helps you to get out of the mock mode -- let your get your hands dirty with actually making it reality, which the art team needs.
<h4writer> yes it's nice I finally get to know how it works
<h4writer> how can I find the package uri?
<troy_s> h4writer: Should be in that tutorial.
<troy_s> do a package search to find out where yelp is and such... andreasn might be able to help you with that as he is quite a wise fellow with gnome layout.
<andreasn> and if I don't there is always people that know in gnome-hackers on gimpnet
<andreasn> #gnome-hackers
<troy_s> h4writer: Learning the loose package layout in Ubuntu is helpful as you can help others too.  I know a tad about it, but my knowledge doesn't extend into yelp.
<h4writer> yeah, Indeed, you're wright
<h4writer> *right
<troy_s> h4writer: Luckily we have a few very knowledgeable folks who hang out here -- like andreasn -- and having him around is a massive asset.
<andreasn> troy_s: dude, you're making me blush ;)
<h4writer> :p
<troy_s> andreasn: I also agree with that link you posted regarding the icon overuse... it seems people have made a meal out of the bloody things.
<andreasn> well, people are quite fond of their pretty pictures :)
<troy_s> andreasn: It would be nice to see interfaces lean away from menus and icons ... unfortunately I doubt that will happen in the future.
<andreasn> maybe if we get better input devices
<troy_s> andreasn: The problem is that they are fond of _their_ pictures -- someone sitting down at a linux library terminal would be completely lost, and the pictures aren't helping at all.  It would be nice if this sort of thing would get addressed by the community at large.
<andreasn> and the olpc is a step in the right direction
<troy_s> andreasn: That is a wonderful little unit.  How have they improved on the interface?
<troy_s> andreasn: On a side note, in terms of absolutely wonderfully targetted design, you should watch two six year olds with Nintendogs.
<andreasn> well, from the stuff Blizzard showed at Boston Summit it seems the managed to get away from:
<andreasn> 1. Windows
<andreasn> 2. Saving
<troy_s> andreasn: I had the pleasure of watching that the other day and it was amazing that _none_ of the children needed help to setup a wireless connection.
<andreasn> 3. and the network stuff works in interesting stuff
<troy_s> andreasn: Do you have a link to a more explanatory bit for luddites like me?
<troy_s> who need to read the details before they understand it.
<andreasn> there should be some kind of design document somewhere
<andreasn> let me check what I can find
<troy_s> thanks a mill
<h4writer> troy_s, so I think the branch uri would be https://launchpad.net/~vcs-imports/+branch/yelp/main
<h4writer> can you check if that's alright
<troy_s> no, but you can... sorry i am chessing
<troy_s> usually the newer ones are feisty-*
<andreasn> troy_s: I think this is the stuff: http://wiki.laptop.org/go/OLPC_Human_Interface_Guidelines/The_Laptop_Experience/Introduction
<kwwii> h4writer: yes, that is right
<h4writer> ok thanks
<kwwii> h4writer: branch that using bzr, makes your changes, update the changelog, makefile, etc. and then put it on a normal http server somewhere
<kwwii> sorry, i am cooking a duck at the moment, kinda busy
<h4writer> no problem
<troy_s> andreasn: WOW that is refreshing!
<troy_s> andreasn: It is nice to see an abandonment of the old office files and folders paradigm that xerox started way back when.
<h4writer> kwwii, can I see the change immediately. I main can I see the result?
<h4writer> *mean
<andreasn> troy_s: absolutely
<andreasn> who knows, perhaps some of the stuff finds it way back to the regular desktop release
<andreasn> speaking of weird/interesting gnome-stuff: http://www.inference.phy.cam.ac.uk/cjb/moko.jpg
<andreasn> well, I better do the dishes, catch you later!
<kwwii> h4writer: not sure I understand correctly
<h4writer> ?
<kwwii> 18:36 < h4writer> kwwii, can I see the change immediately. I main can I see the  result?
<h4writer> yeah, can I build the package? So I can see the change immediately
<h4writer> if I made I mistake
<h4writer> if I'm good busy
<kwwii> h4writer: well, once it is in a format to build, sure :-)
<h4writer> okey
<kwwii> h4writer: how did you change things now?
<h4writer> no, I'm explorering the package
<h4writer> it isn't that easy
<kwwii> h4writer: did you take the source pacakge and edit that, or did you edit files on your running system?
<h4writer> I did the bzr into a folder
<h4writer> so I'm editing those
<kwwii> cool, exactly :-)
<h4writer> okey, I will come back within a hour of 2, to work further on it
<kwwii> theorectically you could build that packae once it is done
<h4writer> okey
<kwwii> cool
<h4writer> now I'm of to my brother coming from ski trip
<h4writer> see you
<kwwii> see you
<troy_s> kwwii
<troy_s> here is another piece of community work that might be worth integrating
<troy_s> http://www.taimila.com/orange-look.php
<troy_s> scroll down to the terminal server client portion
<troy_s> she actually has many little 'theme' updates that would probably go a long way to rounding out the human look.
<kwwii> hehe, cool
<kwwii> but it is a "he"
<kwwii> doing dishes, bbl
<troy_s> ah well there you go
<troy_s> anyways, most of that crap should probably just get dropped in.
<nysosym> hi there :)
<troy_s> greets nysosym
<nysosym> hi troy_s, how are u? :)
<BHSPitMonkey> yo
<troy_s> hanging in there.
<nysosym> troy_s: why?
<troy_s> just running low on motivation
<troy_s> greets coz_
<coz_> troy_s, hey guy
<nysosym> kwwii: on what do u working these time? :D
<kwwii> nysosym: nothing - watching tv ;-)
<nysosym> well, that's a good thing, what is on tv? :)
<h4writer> kwwii, are you there and do you have the time to show me how I can compile my version?
<h4writer> for testing?
<kwwii> h4writer: not sure about building it myself...
<kwwii> h4writer: try an autogen or whatever, and then configure and make
<kwwii> h4writer: I am sure that there is a better way to build it though
<kwwii> in the end you want to do something like debuild or whatever
<kwwii> I spent 7 years+ working on rpm based systems, still getting used to debian
<h4writer> okey
<h4writer> kwwii, I didn't find information about autogen in combination with bzr. Can it be, you need to use debuild?
<nysosym> hi PingunZ__ :)
<kwwii> h4writer: if debuild works it is probably better to use it
<h4writer> it isn't working at all:p
<h4writer> but I'm searching for the solution
<h4writer> I don't know why, but I don't have pgp-agent
<h4writer> kwwii and I want to try BzrBuildpackage
<h4writer> it is specially designed for building them
<nysosym> good night my friends! :)
#ubuntu-artwork 2007-02-25
<nextstep> i would ike to contribute with some ubuntu artwork ideas. where should i start?
<nextstep> posted on ubuntuforums>>> http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=369414
<nextstep> somebody?
<nextstep> anybody?
<yharrow> have you joined the mailing list?
<nextstep> not yet. i have just completed the launchpad registration
<nextstep> i'm kinda new to this whole thing, you know...
<nextstep> ok, i have joined it
<nextstep> now where should i actually submit it?
<yharrow> you should get an email telling you where to send suggestions and stuff, Im not an expert either btw
<yharrow> just joined :)
<nextstep> well i just posted a mail, so i hope i've done the right stuff:)
<yharrow> ok. I hope so too :)
<nextstep> ok, i've done it roght...phew...
<yharrow> yay
<nextstep> have you got the mail?
<yharrow> nextstep its a mailing list so no, I suppose its on the server
<yharrow> mebbe some others got it
<yharrow> I can go check
<troy_s> nextstep: Your best bet is GnomeLook
<nextstep> what do you mean?
<nextstep> http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=369414
<troy_s> nextstep: I mean that sabdfl won't be considering it.  Sabdfl likes the tan, etc.
<troy_s> I wouldn't be wasting more time, but again, that is strictly my opinion and probably not even close to reality.
<h4writer> kwwii, I was trying to change yelp, but it wont work. The files that I understand don't have the configuration and the other (mainly .c, .cpp, .h) files I don't understand.
<h4writer> kwwii, okey I think it might work. It is becoming clear to me, what what is
<h4writer> got a question, in yelp-common is standing:  </xsl:text>
<h4writer>       <xsl:value-of select="$yelp.color.gray.bg"/><xsl:text>;
<h4writer> where is $yelp.color.gray.bg coming from?
<troy_s> h4writer: It could be GTK
<h4writer> do you now where I can change the value of $yelp.color.gray.bg
<h4writer> or may I delete the line and type my colors in it?
<h4writer> andreasn, you said you would look for the icon in help center
<h4writer> I think that isn't needed
<h4writer> because it is already in help center
<h4writer> coded
<nextstep> troy_s: if nobody would bother on wasting his time on things that weren't worthy at the moment, we wouldn't have linux now if you know what i mean
<nextstep> anyway, i have been shocked about the whole mentality....isn't Ubuntu for human beings developed by human beings? i think users should get involved into the development, else it is just like M$ or whatever we switched from
<BHSPitMonkey> Ubuntu for human beings is being developed by developers- NOT by human beings.
<nextstep> right...but aren't developers human beings? anyway i was referring to the artwork here...
<troy_s> nextstep
<troy_s> nextstep Ubuntu is not Linux.
<nextstep> yes?
<troy_s> nextstep Having a bit of experience with the artwork in Ubuntu, I can tell you that it is a rather futile proposition at the moment.
<troy_s> You are welcome to try, but that said, certain underlying issues are hindering the progress.
<nextstep> well, i was whining about feisty, which, unlike edgy excluded the possibility of trying
<troy_s> Yep
<troy_s> Ultimately sabdfl's design direction is what is crippling the development of Ubuntu art and design.
<nextstep> now that's an issue worth talking about
<troy_s> Edgy was supposed to be the _beginning_ of  a process development, and was kaiboshed by sabdfl because, despite liking various elements along the way, he was unable / unwilling to direct the work.
<nextstep> ubuntu's artwork should conform to the users' tastes
<troy_s> Well that is a rather vague statement to say the least.
<troy_s> I would suggest that Ubuntu needs a clearly outlined target audience, yes.
<troy_s> Everyone from a six year old to a grandmother is a 'user', and you can appreciate that the broad range of 'users' within that classification will have different needs, different aesthetic tendencies, etc.
<troy_s> Without the clear outlining of an audience, we will forever be bound to unassuming middle-grey gradients.
<nextstep> but where isthe advance in that case?
<troy_s> There isn't any
<troy_s> Ultimately, the person footing the bill -- sabdfl -- is calling the shots on art and design.
<troy_s> His opinions and experience are, at this moment, all that matter.
<nextstep> then what is the purpose of the artwork team?
<troy_s> There is little hope without a strong community uprising to change this.
<troy_s> There is none.
<troy_s> Other than to derive community driven themes and be a source of technical related information.
<troy_s> All of the work you have seen in Ubuntu, with the exception of the LOGO in Edgy and the wallpaper in Edgy (Author unknown), have been _funded_ development.
<troy_s> As in paid to produce
<troy_s> It is the same this cycle as well, with Ken helming the work.
<troy_s> And yes, it is a sad state of affairs when the buntu's are known for their wonderful distribution abilities but also infamous for their art and design direction.
<troy_s> It is mediocre and tepid in delivery.
<nextstep> yes, but community-driven themes are NOT the default look
<nextstep> newbies look at the default look
<nextstep> fedora did it...why ubuntu is not able to?
<nextstep> fc7 is gorgeous
<troy_s> Yes but that is produced by someone with formalized training (MFA)
<troy_s> Ubuntu is not able to for two large reasons:
<troy_s> 1) It is unwilling -- sabdfl directs the design and that is single handedly the weakest link.
<troy_s> 2) Formally trained artists.
<troy_s> When you say 'newbies' you are actually, once again, addressing a very large user group.  To be effective the design needs to more closely examine exactly who it is attempting to appeal to.
<nextstep> i have seen on deviantart.com some works that have been...just..beatiful...90% of them aren't trained in any kind
<troy_s> Orchestration on a higher level requires people who can think and evaluate design on a high level.
<troy_s> Producing a singular piece of art isn't the goal here.
<troy_s> it is a larger design pattern, and if you need further proof, have a look at Diana Fong's work.
<troy_s> It comes from dedication and devotion to the craft and treating it as it deserves to be treated -- a serious discipline.
<troy_s> If you look to the topic, you can see some of the considerations and like matters that need to be addressed long before you begin pushing pixels around.
<nextstep> a larger design pattern does not match a 700MB iso file
<troy_s> larger design pattern
<troy_s> it has nothing to do with size.
<nextstep> but you still need something characteristic to ubuntu, and abstraction/minimalism is the way to go, and the default wallaper does not have to be disturbing
<troy_s> All just opinions.
<nextstep> that's why all major OSses have minimalistic/abstract walls
<troy_s> You are mistaken.
<troy_s> If you look to Apple's lauded design, you will quickly see that it is evocative and communicative.
<nextstep> but not disturbing
<troy_s> As is the multi-million dollar Vista.  Both projects headed by very disciplined and trained individuals.
<troy_s> "disturbing" is nothing but a relative term
<nextstep> and years of research
<troy_s> "One man's meat is another man's poison"
<troy_s> The bottom line, you will be hard pressed to find a single member of the Apple design team without formal education credentials.
<troy_s> There is a reason for that.
<nextstep> yes, but we have to work with what we have
<nextstep> i believe that beautiful work depends on talent, bot training
<nextstep> art is about talent
<troy_s> Then you are ignorant of about 2000 years of art history.
<troy_s> Look at the most lauded artists in the past
<troy_s> Rembrandt, Da Vinci, etc.
<troy_s> All of them were not only formally trained but began their own schools with apprentices.
<troy_s> Composition, perspective, colour theory, to name a few -- are all skills that must be learned and studied like carpentry.
<nextstep> those can and must be studied but do not necessitate school/university/whatever
<troy_s> Also, all of those traits are culturally biased.
<troy_s> The generality is that if someone is willing to study for four or five years they will _probably_ have a fundamental discipline and belief in the craft.
<msikma> Although I generally agree, I would find that more enticing if the graphic design graduates around here were more capable. I frequently see graduates that don't seem to have skills that would get them hired at a self-respecting graphic design company (except for internship, which admittedly is also a prerequisite).
<troy_s> msikma: Education isn't the end.
<troy_s> msikma: It is the beginning.
<troy_s> rather like learning the fundamental toolset and being aware of the issues at hand.
<troy_s> Once you have completed your education, you begin to learn the application.
<troy_s> Dziga Vertov once said "Anyone who cares for their art seeks the essence of their own technique."  That can take a lifetime to work towards.
<nextstep> right
<msikma> But on one hand, you've got people who didn't go to an academy and are making excellent work after some time, and on the other hand there are people who did go to an academy and still seem to have problems making aesthetically sound designs, even after all those years. It seems that while education is very important, it's really the hard and constant labor that shapes the artist in the end.
<msikma> Although a fundamental toolset, I do think you can reach high places without those years of formal training.
<msikma> Just not as often as design graduates.
<nextstep> yep, take http://deviantart for example...there are some users sitting all day in front of the computers having no special training and creating beautiful pieces of art
<msikma> There's some great stuff on DeviantART. Although 99% of it is garb.
<nextstep> but the 1% worths it
<nextstep> in conclusion education is very important but not always necessary
<msikma> The 1% that makes excelling artwork probably does go to an academy, or plans to.
<msikma> Maybe people are just lazy.
<nextstep> and if it only plans to it means that it is not YET educated
<nextstep> most of them are....includeing me:D
<msikma> Well, the thing is that even if you make excellent art, that doesn't mean it's commercially viable art.
<msikma> I've seen some stuff on there that's very nice, but in the end not really something that I'd put in a professional portfolio.
<msikma> They're "donuts".
<nextstep> huh
<msikma> Anyway, no bad words about DeviantART.
<msikma> It's a nice site
<troy_s> Good luck on that.
<nextstep> what do you mean?
<msikma> troy_s: I was looking at some specs I'm registered to, and I see that there's still a "Ubuntu title font" spec.
<msikma> What are your thoughts on that? I personally am against changing the Ubuntu title font further except to clean up the UBUNTU letters. I think that any other use of that font besides the official logo is misuse.
<troy_s> msikma: I think as a full typeface, it has loads of room to go.  Fundamentally though, I agree with your opinion that even the more minor splines need to be cleaned up.
<troy_s> msikma: And yes, I 100% agree that anything beyond spelling Ubuntu with it is a horrible mistake of aesthetics.
<msikma> "Ubuntu" is not exactly a name that you'd need to "translate".
<msikma> E.g. "bnt" in Finnish or whichever
<troy_s> msikma: It is still a god awful font ;)
<troy_s> It works for the title, but that is about where it ends.
<msikma> Yeah, it just wasn't designed for anything else
<troy_s> agree
<troy_s> just look at all the buttons and loco teams that use it -- it is not terribly well balanced nor spaced etc.
<msikma> Do you think that anyone would be interested in a redesigned website?
<msikma> I still think that the website gives a completely wrong impression of what Ubuntu is (and seems to want to be).
<troy_s> msikma:  You know what, if it were my call, I would _certainly_ open up the creative floodgates on that.
<troy_s> I agree... I think in terms of underlying communication, people 'come' to Ubuntu with an implied 'knowledge' -- based on the term and the tone etc.
<troy_s> And yes, it fundamentally clashes with what shuttlebot desires it to be, which is unfortunate.
<troy_s> I think a portion of Ubuntu's draw as an alternative is this very human/earthy/organic connotation.  It might be prudent to see where that evolves to.  That said, it will never happen.  ;)
<troy_s> I think if you redesigned the website though, you would end up having to liase with shuttlebot on it, and in the end, you might find that your intentions might get completely warped upon getting to the destination.  If you are willing to give that a go, then try it.
<msikma> Maybe I should mail him first
<msikma> Ask him what _he_ thinks Ubuntu is (actually, maybe he doesn't want to explain that to every random stranger)
<msikma> I think I have a pretty good idea of it anyway
<troy_s> msikma: He has zero clue and certainly can't communicate it.
<troy_s> msikma:  Believe me when I say that I have tried on even the most kindergarten level to get SOME concept of what his 'perception' is.  Ultimately, I don't believe he has one.
<troy_s> And I have been tasked with attempting to get design direction out of a few people to build upon.
<troy_s> He is simply a completely different beast.
<troy_s> I can find redeeming qualities in most anyone's aesthetic choices and generally 'see' what they are trying to do.  shuttlebot, however, completely eludes me.
<troy_s> But good luck to you if you try.  :)
<msikma> The thing is, if I would try it, it would certainly look very different from what there is now, both aesthetically and navigationally.
<msikma> I think that just the change alone would make people squeal.
<troy_s> msikma: Again... low percentage investment however.
<troy_s> msikma: Perhaps we should consider developing a working site to host community related work on?
<troy_s> provide information, etc.
<msikma> I think that while a separate community site is the best idea, it's primarily the official Ubuntu site itself that should rely on solid design. Community sites can "get away" with having slightly awkward designs. But they seem to consistently have at least decent designs, most of the time
<troy_s> msikma: What I am loosely saying is that if we focus on not worrying about mainstream
<troy_s> msikma: We can assure ourselves success on a certain level.
<troy_s> msikma: When the reality is that 6 cycles on, Ubuntu has zero hope of providing the elements we desire.
<msikma> hmmm
<troy_s> msikma: Much like everything else in FOSS, ultimately, if we don't step up, we have no one to blame but ourselves.
<troy_s> I believe there is enough skill in the community to achieve the results, but it will take execution to demonstrate it.
<troy_s> That will require collaboration and cooperation.
<troy_s> Even with a smaller core of people, it is likely we could generate enough work to gain a certain 'critical mass'
<h4writer> kwwii, are you there?
<nysosym> hi there :)
<troy_s> FRANK
<troy_s> fschoep!
<nysosym> hi fschoep!!! :)
<troy_s> ltns my friend.
<fschoep> Hi
<fschoep> It's been two months, figured I'd join in to chat a bit
<troy_s> how have you been frankie?
<nysosym> fschoep: how are u? :)
<fschoep> well, doing fine mostly
<fschoep> past few months were a little difficult
<fschoep> Apparently I had mono (Pfeiffer?)
<fschoep> so I was tired as hell and that's probably been going on for a few months
<fschoep> I'm still recovering, but these weeks I'm feeling better and better, hopefully back at 100% in a week or two
<fschoep> how are you lot?
<nysosym> wow fschoep, get well soon! ;)
<fschoep> thanks :)
<nysosym> i'm fine so far :)
<fschoep> great
<fschoep> troy_s: are you around?
<troy_s> yeah
<troy_s> mono sucks
<troy_s> fschoep: ?
<fschoep> yes
<fschoep> ?
<h4writer> kwwii, are you there
#ubuntu-artwork 2008-02-18
<troy_s> kwwii: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ubuntu-wallpapers/+bug/192670
<ubotu> Launchpad bug 192670 in ubuntu-wallpapers "New wallpaper has transparent border" [Medium,Triaged]
<kwwii> troy_s: erm, I thought I fixed that...thanks for pointing it out I'll take care of it
<kwwii> andreasn: ping? do you know where gdm gets the icons it shows in the menu's?
<andreasn> pong
<andreasn> from the theme I suppose
<kwwii> I was hoping so, but it seems that the ones in the menu itself are taken from somewhere else
<andreasn> the Shutdown, Locate etc. icons, right?
<kwwii> right
<andreasn> hold on
<andreasn> someone in #gdm on irc.gimpnet.org might know
<andreasn> Im afraid I have little clue :(
<kwwii> ok, thanks, I thought you might know off the top or your head
<andreasn> there is also some documentation on http://library.gnome.org/ but I it didnt turn up anything useful when doing a search for gdm
<andreasn> jimmac, mizmo or garrett would be my safest bet to ask
<kwwii> yeah, I think that ubuntu uses different ones anyway
<andreasn> hm, is it restart, reboot, shut down etc?
<andreasn> /usr/share/icons/hicolor/48x48/apps/un-reboot.png
<andreasn> and /usr/share/icons/Human/scalable/apps
<andreasn> dont the gdm use those?
<andreasn> there are also some icons in /usr/gnome/48x48/apps
<kwwii> well, at least on my gutsy laptop it shows different ones :-(
<kwwii> I seriously don't understand where they are coming from :p
<andreasn> but what do they look like?
<andreasn> screenshot?
<nothlit> go run an gdm (xnested if you like), and use lsof | grep gdm
<kwwii> hrm, for some reason my gdmthemetester doesn't work
<kwwii> hrm, I do not see any png listed
<kwwii> _MMA_: hey man
<kwwii> _MMA_: if you have a second can you test something for me?
<kwwii> _MMA_: I am wondering what the icons look like in your gdm menus
<_MMA_> Skype?
<_MMA_> kwwii ^^^
<kwwii> sure
<thorwil> is there a way to delete attachments on a launchpad page?
<thorwil> doesn't look like
#ubuntu-artwork 2008-02-19
<kwwii> andreasn: would you mind if I put the icon ideas you made into a bzr repo and launchpad page so that we people can start working on the new set?
<andreasn> not at all
<kwwii> cool, thanks :-)
<andreasn> it is free software after all
<kwwii> hehe, but I still don't want to piss you off :-)
<andreasn> so, what is the plan?
<andreasn> monochrome notification area stuff for hardy+1/gnome 2.24?
<kwwii> yeah, that is what I would like to see happen
<kwwii> guess I should talk to jimmac about this stuff
<andreasn> probably yes, and also mizmo
<andreasn> the idea have been bounced back and forth so many times its time someone take action :)
<kwwii> you'll have to introduce me to mizmo
<andreasn> she runs the fedora artwork stuff
<kwwii> ahhaaa, right
<kwwii> I wish I could have met her while I was in Boston
<andreasn> I dont think she was at uds actually, she was attending to some wedding or something if I recall correctly
<andreasn> did I miss that meeting btw? or is that coming up?
<kwwii> well, one day we should all meet - it would be kinda interesting to get jimmac, myself, mizmo, you and a couple other in one room for a day or two
<kwwii> the next UDS, you mean? it will be in prague in may
<kwwii> ahhh, you mean the artwork meeting
<kwwii> nope, haven't had one yet
<kwwii> since nobody really seems interested I put it off
<andreasn> ah
<andreasn> I got some message that I was unsubscribed to the mailing list today
<kwwii> i see little reason in talking to everyone when nobody does anything :-)
<kwwii> hrm, that is freaky...I wonder why
<andreasn> so I totally missed the whole discussion
<kwwii> well, there really was no discussion about it
<kwwii> I can forward you the emails if you want
<andreasn> a bunch of us are planning to go to the Libre Graphics Meeting in Poland in May, perhaps it would be nice to have a brainstorm there
<kwwii> that would be cool, I will be there as well
<kwwii> we should probably set up a meeting before it starts :-)
<andreasn> indeed
<thorwil> kwwii: hi! i don't know if and what role you played, but now we have the OK to use the bugs/brainstorm artwork as it is :)
<Tm_T> :)
<kwwii> thorwil: good to hear that :-)
<kwwii> I just asked the right questions of the right people
<thorwil> kwwii: cool, thanks!
<kwwii> henrik is not used to dealing with art stuff so when someone says something to him he takes it as-is, I on the other hand tend to open my mouth
<kwwii> :p
<thorwil> heh
<thorwil> today i came across http://www.ubuntu-forum.de/
<thorwil> now there you can see a truly problematic use of the logo ;)
<_MMA_> It would at least be better if they had the copyright notices at the bottom.
<thorwil> _MMA_: are you aware the the top and bottom strokes of the studio logo are not symmetrical?
<_MMA_> thorwil: One of the 3 outer pills?
<_MMA_> In what way? Not the same shape or alignment?
<thorwil> _MMA_: yes. right side / top and bottom
<_MMA_> Ok. Fix if you like and send back.
<thorwil> _MMA_: distance to the center. in fact both do not share their center with the inner circle
<thorwil> _MMA_: will do
 * thorwil sometimes misses CAD-like abilities in inkscape
<_MMA_> :P
<thorwil> but someone was not paying attention here
<nothlit> `/26
 * kwwii reports _MMA_ to the branding police
<kwwii> here is an interesting way to get hardy on a ppc machine....
<kwwii> it had dapper on it, and I have just kept dist upgrading
 * _MMA_ wouldnt put Hardy on anything but a test box atm.
<kwwii> I'm at Gutsy - no stopping me now!
<_MMA_> "P
<_MMA_> :P
<kwwii> I am amazed that it actually worked so well
<kwwii> btw...about 10 people have pinged me with how much they like the feta kuli wallpaper
<_MMA_> :P
<thorwil> it seems to be very polarizing
 * _MMA_ goes to find 20 people who hate it.
 * thorwil -> food
<kwwii> _MMA_: just post an obnoxious thread on the forum, they will respond in turn
<_MMA_> Im sure someone has beat me to it. :P
<kwwii> :p
<thorwil> _MMA_: oh, you might want to move the o of studio a bit to the left. bad kerning
<_MMA_> k
<_MMA_> kwwii: But I'm damn sure you *can* set those icons in a theme. So you could at least throw 'em in Human somewhere to override the defaults.
<kwwii> _MMA_: you might have a point
<kwwii> I'll try that first
<_MMA_> k
#ubuntu-artwork 2008-02-20
<Toma-> troy_s? ping!
<troy_s> kwwii: http://www.osnews.com/story/18166/Interview_with_David_Turner_of_Freetype
<troy_s> kwwii: In particular, note the line:
<troy_s> kwwii: "Also, I still don't understand why Debian and Ubuntu keep distributing patent-infringing code in FreeType, while they keep MP3 and DVD playback out of their normal installs. I'm not even sure it's DFSG compliant..."
<troy_s> kwwii: We should probably get the boys to look into this.  I believe he is spot on with his estimation and that means patent issues.
<troy_s> kwwii: http://www.osnews.com/thread?251651
<kwwii> troy_s: those patents are not being actively enforced (and expire in a year) so it is apparently not a problem (and debian still has it turned on, btw.)
<troy_s> kwwii: Good news.
<thorwil> nand_: hi! should i send banners for brainstorm announcement to you or to henrik?
<nand_> thorwil: hi! To henrik, he is in charge of spreading the news :)
<nand_> thorwil: the date is not definitive yet, but it will be during next week
<thorwil> nand_: ok
#ubuntu-artwork 2008-02-23
<kavoor> Hello, Is it true that Hardy will now feature a new theme and a new makeover is scheduled for Hardy +1 ??
<kavoor> ** not feature **
<troy_s> kwwii: Seeing as how the Fela Kuti wallpaper seems to have some positive reviews, I modified the version slightly to adjust the reds away from the neck (as per the feedback I have been seeing)
<troy_s> kwwii: Initially I avoided changing anything as it was supposed to be a quick pinch off in the middle of the night
<troy_s> kwwii: The remixed version is
<troy_s> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Incoming/Hardy/Alternate/Fela_Kuti
<troy_s> kwwii: _IF_ you choose to run with Fela, at least give a chance for a little polishing on it (Namely for a chance for us to bring the tone of the base wall to GDM into alignment etc.)
<hbons> troy_s: will this be the default style?
#ubuntu-artwork 2008-02-24
<troy_s> hbons: No idea.  Well beyond my guesswork.
<troy_s> hbons: I believe that the Fela Kuti wallpaper has a _lot_ going for it.
<hbons> yeah, it's very cool
<troy_s> hbons: 1) It steps us in the right direction away from the absolutely amateur monochromatic rubbish we have been seeing.
<hbons> much better indeed
<troy_s> hbons: 2) It is a deft application of artistry (Ash did a good job)
<hbons> is there a deadline for art packaging?
<troy_s> hbons: 3) It is at least a _step_ in the right direction regarding content -- a migration away from the overly fearful and completely abstract 'blah' wallpapers.
<troy_s> hbons: And yes, there is a deadline, but I think that kwwii could probably apply 'tweaks' on the given packages assuming they are settled.
<hbons> i'd like to propose this one as an alternative icon set, like Tangerine: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Incoming/Hardy/Alternate/Discovery
<hbons> i think it goed well with the Fela Kuti wallpaper;)
<troy_s> hbons: Have you been working on anything?
<hbons> troy_s: only icons
<troy_s> hbons: Is discovery yours?
<hbons> yeah
<troy_s> hbons: Oh how interesting.
<troy_s> hbons: Have you created any icons outside of the Tango style?
<hbons> not very much
<hbons> but i think i could:)
<troy_s> hbons: Do you have a link with more of your bits online?
<hbons> troy_s: well there's my blog http://bomahy.nl/hylke/blog/(but most images don't work at the moment) and http://hbons.deviantart.com/ not very much
<mohbana> hey guys
<mohbana> anyone here?
<mohbana> please use my name when texting back
<mohbana> thanks
<troy_s> mohbana: What's up?
<mohbana> troy_s, what hex does ubuntu does for that orange?
<troy_s> mohbana: That should all be on the wiki
<mohbana> do you have the ling?
<mohbana> king
<mohbana> link lol
<troy_s> mohbana: Bear in mind that the colour is a logo colour.
<ArthurArchnix> hiya... I've just spent the last six hours making a custom theme, but I've only managed to do the 48x48 folder. I was wondering how you guys scale this down. I'm hoping there's a program that will recursively scan a directory, resize pngs, ignore symlinks.... and so on. Is there such a magical creature?
<ArthurArchnix> Oh, and by making, I mean taking all my fav's and putting them into one. :P
<nothlit> grr, the wiki is full of clutter
<nothlit> there is a set of icon naming utils from tango
<nothlit> you need to optimise the smaller sizes by hand depending on the ratio
<ArthurArchnix> Oh yeah...? I was thinking of just using convert or this alpha program here called phatch, http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=466598
<nothlit> ArthurArchnix: http://tango.freedesktop.org/Tango_Icon_Theme_Guidelines#Sizes
<ArthurArchnix> Reading through it now nothlit, thanks for that link. I started by copying the human icon theme. I like the human theme, but I wanted to sub in my own icons for some things, like folders and apps. Net status. Battery. Etc. Reading that link, it seems like I can maybe delete some of the more obscure folders. Like maybe delete the 8x8 entirely from the theme. I'm also checking out that naming script... but man do I wis
<nothlit> your words were cut off as 'man do I wis'
<nothlit> yeah, i get lazy and delete raster sizes from a duplicated folder and rely on the svg for personal quick edits as well
<ArthurArchnix> ok... just fyi, phatch rocks my socks. Thanks for the links nothlit.
<ArthurArchnix> One more question... for now ( :)  ), I've rename the theme in the index.theme file, removed all the folders I'm not using (e.g., scale). Once I create a tar.gz and drop it into the theme manager in ubuntu it's not gonna mess up my default human theme is it? My first try at this yesterday required a sudo apt-get remove --purge human-icons && apt-get install human-icons --purge. I can't remember the exact command. But
<nothlit> no
<nothlit> dropping it in
<nothlit> is basically extracting it into ~/.icons/
<nothlit> you can do that manually as well
<ArthurArchnix> Probably safer then, to copy it in manually.
<ArthurArchnix> ahh... I see what you mean now about optimizing the smaller sizes... you mean physically editing the icons so they make sense at smaller sizes.... yeah. Well, that's the trick isn't it? I mean, I'm an academic not an artist, but I have fun coming up with my own personalized icons scheme. But then, creating the smaller versions is a little (read: way, way) beyond my skillset. I don't mind though. I think the human the
<ArthurArchnix> phatch created this barely recognizable icons at 12x12. :) But still, what a great program.
<ArthurArchnix> If I delete icon.cache will it be recreated automagically?
<nothlit> if in doubt, move instead or make a backup
<troy_s> nothlit: Apparently ArthurArchnix and the other phatch guys don't know about imagemagick.
<nothlit> troy_s: it doesn't use a backend?
<troy_s> nothlit: I can only assume it does... I don't know how you get any simpler than the actual program however.
<troy_s> nothlit: Mind you, just looking, Ubuntu's imagemagick is hideously out of date.
<troy_s> nothlit: Sad really.
<nothlit> imagemagick is difficult for people without cli experience to use, that would be part of the reason graphicsmagick exists to begin with
<nothlit> but its incredible to have all those algorithms :)
<nothlit> btw: to anyone listening, sinc and lanczos are the best for downsizing without moire
<troy_s> nothlit: You can script a stair interpolation relatively quickly too.
#ubuntu-artwork 2009-02-16
<_MMA_> * Initial packaging for Breathe added to Launchpad.
<_MMA_> thorwil: Is the "trivet" one fiberglass?
<mgariepy> hi, I need to change the icon of text/x-uri files but i can't find the way to do it can someone help ?
<andreasn> mgariepy, put the new icon in the folder .icons/nameofyourtheme/$size/mimetypes
<_MMA_> mgariepy: I gotta head out but just take that and look at how other like files are named. I /think/ that's all you'll need. Something like text-x-uri.png/svg
<andreasn> and name it text-x-generic
<mgariepy> _MMA_, the file like x-uri, are displaying a preview of the text in the icon.
<mgariepy> i did try to change icon with :: assogiate :: but it's doesn't seam to work.
<thorwil> _MMA_: wood
<thorwil> scratched and partly burned
<_MMA_> thorwil: *Highly* scratched. Is it a desk?
<_MMA_> s/is/was
<thorwil> _MMA_: no, it still is a thing you place hot pots on
<thorwil> http://www.bedbathandbeyond.com/assets/product_images/380/7383214938826P.JPG
<thorwil> a bit like that, sans hole
<dashua> _MMA_: I had to change libmagick9-dev in control to libmagickwand-dev for Breathe to build on Jaunty.
<dashua> Built fine.
<_MMA_> dashua: Ok. I'm building on Intrepid atm. Really though, the package needs some polish. Thanx for the note though.
<dashua> Np.  After that, no problems.
<_MMA_> dashua: I'll most likely have a couple more revisions before the night is through. I'm currently reviewing all the symlinks. Gotta add the AUTHORS and other little details like that.
<dashua> Ok cool.   Nice to finally have a package.
<dashua> Hr, this Impression theme has some potential, but there is a lot of code in the gtkrc.
<_MMA_> dashua: Grab rev.3 and build without your tweak. I think I got it working for Intrepid/Jaunty.
<dashua> Ok
<_MMA_> dashua: I just did: libmagick9-dev (>= 5.5.7) | libmagickwand-dev Hopefully I don't need to specify a version.
<dashua> Yeah, that's all I added
<dashua> One sec.
<_MMA_> Man. I gotta get the archive icons in place. :P
<dashua> Looking good.
<dashua> Power options still being worked out?
<_MMA_> Yep
<dashua> Nice.
<dashua> Yep.  Built and packaged fine.
<_MMA_> Killerl. Now to work out some things in trunk.
<_MMA_> dashua: I might stop doing the symlinks in trunk in favor of pointing people to the packaging branch.
<dashua> Yeah. That should work.
<_MMA_> dashua: Ok. I'll do it sometime this week.
<dashua> Awesome.
<dashua> I'm trying to learn the technical details to packaging.  Once mastered, maybe I can help out.
<_MMA_> After I get the power icons in. :)
<dashua> Right now, I'm enjoying hacking on gtkrc's
<_MMA_> :)
<_MMA_> Atm, the Breathe packages is based off the Studio icon set. So I'm pretty familiar with it. It's just about done. From here on out, there should be nothing but little tweaks here and there.
<_MMA_> brb
<dashua> kk
<SealV> I am bored
<_MMA_> SealV: You could always install Lenny. ;)
<SealV> :) already running it as a triple boot
<_MMA_> SealV: Nothing really compelling about it for me.
<_MMA_> Worked well enough.
<SealV> debian rarely does compelling, but I did have a small mail server running on it for 340 days
<_MMA_> I got mine on Hardy. Been fine. Things tend to only break for me when I start tinkering. ;)
<SealV> yes like today where a key got stuck and I somehow ended up deleting most of my .x files in my home directory... I am still trying to figure out what happened there...
<dashua> Ok, got 1400 + lines of code down to 400.  Just have to run it by the author.
<dashua> https://dl.getdropbox.com/u/566470/Impression.tar.gz
<dashua> Looks pretty nice.
<SiDi> About Impression's wallpaper, how is it rendering ?
<SiDi> The screenshots on the wiki are really weird
<dashua> Not sure.  I'm using this https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Incoming/Jaunty/SomeJauntyBackgrounds?action=AttachFile&do=view&target=Jaunty2.jpg
<SiDi> weei nice
<SiDi> i didnt notice this one
<dashua> I'm sure I cut something off in the code, but nothing that is obviously apparent.
<dashua> I made a few modifications as well.
<dashua> https://dl-web.getdropbox.com/get/Photos/Screenshot.png?w=4f4fb216
<dashua> Not bad.
<SiDi> err 403 =)
<dashua> https://dl-web.getdropbox.com/get/Photos/Screenshot.png?w=4f4fb216
<dashua> Nothing?
<SealV> 403
<SiDi> i dl'd impression.tar.gz and i think it wont let me dl 2 things without logging
<SiDi> and i'm in 800x600 cause playing baldurs gate now, too :(
<SiDi> imageshack.us tbh
<SealV> https://bugs.launchpad.net/inkscape/+bug/323061
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 323061 in inkscape "Pen tool crash when drawing a shaped object" [Undecided,Fix released]
<SealV> it says fix released/ how do I get it?
<SealV> especially since the nightly package doesn't seem to be updated
#ubuntu-artwork 2009-02-17
<_MMA_> SealV: bzr-svn is broken atm. That's why the package hasn't been updated. You can grab it from SVN and build yourself. Really easy.
<Cimi> does someone have tried the lpia packages for ubuntu?
<SealV> um.. what lpia packages?
<Cimi> SealV, packages for intel atom
<SealV> my mum has a dell mini 9.. seems to be fine with the atom packages
<Cimi> the thing is
<Cimi> do they perform better?
<Cimi> or they just save more power?
<SealV> power consumption yes, performance: I cant really tell
<SealV> I imed my mom, seems that she hasnt really found a way to upgrade to 8.10
<Cimi> add support in synAPTIC
<SealV> there is a big bug with the installer not being able to find the kernel
<_MMA_> andreasn: Is "text-x-generic-template" used for text files that get the preview text on them?
<andreasn> hm, not sure, let me check
<_MMA_> I just ran across the name in the FD spec. I didn't remember seeing it before.
<_MMA_> andreasn: Any luck?
<andreasn_> _MMA_, oh, sorry, did I ping out
<andreasn_> I think text-x-generic-template are for template files, like in Ooo or something
<andreasn_> the one used for previews is text-x-preview
<_MMA_> andreasn_: Is there anything else needed for the previews to work? Currently it looks like "text-x-preview" symlinks to "text-x-generic" but I get no preview text.
<andreasn_> hm, it seems to work in gnome-icon-theme
<_MMA_> andreasn_: For instance, there's a "text-x-preview.icon" in the Tango set.
<andreasn_> hm, lets see what symlinks there are
<andreasn_> gnome-fs-regular and gtk-file
<_MMA_> yep
<andreasn_> maybe dobey knows what voodoo that's needed
<_MMA_> andreasn_: In #tango?
<andreasn_> yes
<andreasn_> or ubuntu-desktop
<_MMA_> k
<andreasn_> the text-x-preview-icon seems to tell what size the preview area will take up
<andreasn_> so it won't look odd (just guessing really)
<_MMA_> Looks that way.
<_MMA_> brb
<_MMA_> dashua: Can you try rev.10 on the Breathe packaging branch? I think I got everything set up final packaging-wise. I also got text previewing fixed for 48px and above icons.
<dashua> _MMA_: Sure
<_MMA_> cool
<dashua> Building now.
<dashua> Any decision on the power option icons?
<dashua> _MMA_: Built and packaged with no issues.
<_MMA_> dashua: Kinda leaving it up to Sebastien. Looks like he likes both sets. I like both as well. So I'll let him tinker a bit more (as I suspect he's doing) then we'll go from there. I'm guessing it will end up being the non-metal ones.
<_MMA_> dashua: Please install and see if it renders the preview text on .text files correctly. 48px ans above.
<_MMA_> *and
<dashua> Me too.  The metal icons are  cool, but may not be as easily themeable as the others.
<SealV> what is a good way to make a gtk mockup?
<_MMA_> SealV: Cut parts out from screenshots.
<SealV> thanks
<thorwil> SealV: depends on how close to something existing it shall be
<dashua> Man, ext4 boot fasts.
<SealV> pretty close I think, I wan to make a pixbuf theme, but I want to make sure I see on paper what I see in my head
<dashua> boots*
<SealV> *want
<thorwil> SealV: as long as you mainly want to use already existing graphics, GIMP is a good choice
<thorwil> SealV: but if you want to do a lot from scratch, Inkscape can be of advantage
<SealV> I hate dealing with the gimp, honestly I need to install gimpshop
<thorwil> pah, just reserve a workspace for gimp and use focus-follows-mouse with immediate auto-raise ;p
<SealV> I have gone beyond that, I have the place plugin rule where the damn windows are placed.
<SealV> mind you I have the place plugin define where most of my common programs spawn
<SealV> Luzsans is a nice font, is there a licensing issue as to why it isnt in default ubu?
<lucazade> SealV: Luzsans looks nice.. didn't know it before
<lucazade> some glitches with bold fonts btw
<SealV> agreed, but the medium is nice
<lucazade> no brainstorm idea about luzsans, maybe it could be a try
<SealV> I suppose...
<SealV> honestly I have a lot of problems with the default fonts on ubu.
<SealV> size 10 fonts look way too big, it should be size 9 imo
<_MMA_> SealV: Use Ubuntu Studio then. ;)
<lucazade> ubuntu default is still not good enough.. better than in other distro but still not modern
<SealV> and how is the fixed width font not Consolas?
<SealV> I might MMA, I just might ;)
<_MMA_> SealV: In Jaunty things are set to 8pt. 9pt for titlebar. If you do a install just pick the "desktop" task. But be warned, it doesn not come with the same default apps as Ubuntu. network-manager for instance.
<SealV> network-manager for instance
<SealV> you say it like its a bad thing
<SealV> oh! I made a kde (read blue) version of sans sand.. not sure if I got the colors right though, would like some feedback..
<SealV> http://img144.imageshack.us/img144/6329/kinter31bn6.png
<_MMA_> I don't think missing network-manager is bad at all. It doesn't fit our targeted use-case. But for sure others will want it. So for them, yeah.  bad thing.
<_MMA_> Nice
<SealV> ah. my mom for example hates wicd
#ubuntu-artwork 2009-02-18
<thorwil> dashua: i'm happy to see one of backgrounds used, but please add a reference ;)
<dashua> thorwil: Added :)
<thorwil> cool, ty
<dashua> Np, sorry about that.
<_MMA_> dashua: I like your theme, but I have 1 /general/ rant. :) Why are so many of the themes lately 1 step from monotone? :) And that drab light gray? :) I do think there are some limitations that tend to push us that way but we could do so much more. Even with existing tech.
<dashua> I just tried a generic colorscheme.  Do you suggest something lighter? More vibrant?
<_MMA_> dashua: Like I said, "general rant". I'm not suggesting a new design direction for you. :)
<_MMA_> dashua: Though they get flack for being "slow" I'm going to look into a all pixmap theme. On modern systems (last 2 years) pixmap should be just fine.
<darkmatter> lol... slow my butt. by the way. pixmap will run smooth as silk on old systems as well (like, p2 450 old). a few microseconds performance difference isn't 'slow'
<_MMA_> darkmatter: You *always* had the uber-nerds complaining about the few "microseconds" ;)
<_MMA_> I've never had issue myself.
<dashua> I'm using almost all of the murrine SVN options currently available, absent rgba patches.
<dashua> I'll try some different options and I'm always up for suggestions.
<darkmatter> _MMA_: if by 'uber-nerds' you mean 'idiotic newbs with over-inflated and deluded opinions of themselves and the importance of their psychological defects' then I fully agree
<dashua> I like murrine because it seems very fast to me and you can get a lot done with minimal code.
<dashua> The hybrid, light / dark themes, are also very popular, but can be difficult to create.
<_MMA_> dashua: Yeah, Murrine has been good that way. I just feel the only way to really do something different is with pixmap.
<_MMA_> dashua: Yeah. I use Dust alot. Along with the Studio theme.
<dashua> _MMA_: Yeah, for sure.  You're pretty much limited to the engine with Murrine.
<dashua> I made Dust with Nodoka but it seems a little slow to me.  The murrine version is the one I use most.
<dashua> I was trying to come up with a balance between glaringly bright to something more subdued and warm for a somewhat lighter theme.
<_MMA_> dashua: I'm gonna try the new theme on my desktop with Breathe in a few mins. (gotta start some laundry) :)
<darkmatter> of course, because application developers are complete idiots that have no common sense for how to PROPERLY use widgets, you also lose themability with a proper theme, as to properly theme the crap we call a toolkit basically requires application specific rc files for a lot of cases, as well as a few custom images etc. royal pita. so basically a consistent interface = mac themability (read 'none', at least not at an 'easy' level)
<dashua> Nice.  Breathe is what's setting a majority of the warmth for me with the gtkrc bringing in the balance.
<dashua> I guess it should be the other way around =/
<dashua> darkmatter: Apparently, they are working these issues out with GNOME 3.0
<_MMA_> darkmatter: You're just beating a dead horse there. I've had people send patches to upstreams to fix things we've found because of the dark Studio theme. I don't think 1 of them has been applied.
<dashua> We'll see,
<darkmatter> _MMA_: indeed
<darkmatter> _MMA_: I've consistently themed my desktop before. it took about 2 megs of data and several .desktop edits to override the default gtkrc. Trust me, if you really want to see just how much gtk is abused try pixmap, as it's lacking the dirty hacks used to 'ignore' crappy coding decisions ;)
<_MMA_> I'm sure I'll find out this year (later in the year) as I plan to do a new Studio theme in pixmap.
<darkmatter> there's more than a few glaring (IMHO) issues within gnome itself, but the real problems start with third party apps (obviously) and since a ton of what the average distro ships is third party or distro specific, you tend to get 'eep' as an initial result with anything other than hacky engines. The point being, engines shouldn't _have_ hacks to work around crap. if an app (native gtk flavor). if a developer can't properly use the tool
<darkmatter> there are exceptions of course. (non gtk apps trying to blend in)
<thorwil> i guess it's a similar situation as with html/css. no browser and no theme engine should ever have started with including workarounds
<Cimi> tretle: did you see macslow's surprise?
<tretle> no
<tretle> been waiting though
<tretle> u?
<Cimi> i'm on windows
<Cimi> and I use fedora
<tretle> well it hasnt hit jaunty's repos yet
<tretle> interested to see what its liek
<tretle> liek - like
<tretle> think its part of ubuntu-desktop which is being held back for some reason
<tretle> cimi - just forced the installation of ubuntu-desktop and the new notifications work, looks pretty.. tested with rhythmbox thus far
<tretle> though banshee is not compatible with the new notifications
<dashua> https://dl-web.getdropbox.com/get/Photos/Screenshot.png?w=4f4fb216
<dashua> Pretty cool
<_MMA_> 403
<dashua> Bah
<dashua> http://picpaste.com/pics/Screenshot_1.1234978299.png
<dashua> Working sporadically though
<dashua> Audio notifications work, nothing with wifi
<_MMA_> Nice. The changes should hit Studio in the next day or so.
<dashua> i just installed sudo apt-get install evolution-indicator indicator-applet alsdorf libgnomepanel2.24-cil indicator-messages
<dashua> Seemed to work
<dashua> I'm running compiz from git so ubuntu-desktop is no good, but that'll work fine
<_MMA_> dashua: Damn. The power option icons are not applied in the same way they used to be. :(
<dashua> Yeah, I just noticed
<dashua> Pulled and rebuilt and nothing
<_MMA_> No no. I didnt upload yet.
<_MMA_> Just working locally.
<dashua> Oh
<dashua> Gotcha
<dashua> I was trying to view the changes in launchpad, but Epiphany kept crashing on me
<_MMA_> dashua: If you look at the Human theme for instance, in apps, they have images for the options but they arent used.
<dashua> Yeah, I'm looking through .33 now
<_MMA_> And the "switch users" image comes from "system-users". Whicj is used for many things where our button would look weird.
<_MMA_> "Hibernate" uses a drive icon.
<dashua> These look new or were never used
<dashua> Notification icons
<dashua> Wireless
<dashua> Maybe that's for the new system
<_MMA_> Grab rev.12 of debian-packaging. It's according to FD guidelines but I'm gonna look into what I can do to make things consistent on the dialogs. "Reboot" uses the "Refresh" icon for instance.
<_MMA_> If I could figure out if they are using the actual image or a symlink I might be able to work something out. Though, anything that uses it might be screwed.
<dashua> Kk
<_MMA_> dashua: I'm also getting a Intrepid/Jaunty inconsistency. The logout/shutdown icons show in the menu and on the dialogs. In Jaunty they only show in the menu.
<_MMA_> dashua: This /could/ be a difference in the 'icon-naming-utils' package.
<dashua> Should FUSA have a log out icon or shut down?
<dashua> They all seem to have taken.
<_MMA_> huh?
<_MMA_> FUSA?
<dashua> Fast User Switcher Applet
<dashua> In the upper right corner
<_MMA_> Oh. I don't have that. I dont know. Screenshot?
<dashua> Sure, it's installed by default
<dashua> One sec
<_MMA_> Not on Studio, so I never see it.
<dashua> http://picpaste.com/pics/Screenshot_2.1234986323.png
<_MMA_> ATM, the set only uses links generated but the naming-utils package.
<_MMA_> dashua: The applet at the far right?
<dashua> Yeah
<_MMA_> Seems fine to me.Should it be something else?
<dashua> It was the shut down icon there before
<dashua> Red
<dashua> Maybe they changed something around
<dashua> For the applet
<_MMA_> Since I'm doing nothing outside of FD spec, it comes down to the app.
 * _MMA_ shrugs.
<_MMA_> And I can see it using the Logout image there. Make sense.
<dashua> Yeah, that's fine
<_MMA_> Since you're not shutting down with it right?
<dashua> Human's log out was the red icon
<dashua> No
<_MMA_> So what about the dialogs?
<_MMA_> Do the icons appear on them?
<dashua> It's fine.  I thought something was switched.
<_MMA_> I'm gonna have to pull it and build on my laptop.
<dashua> Logout dialog is still the green running man
<dashua> Shutdown is there, no suspend
<dashua> Hibernate looks pixellated
<_MMA_> Yeah see. Its the new image in Intrepid. Somethings changed.
<dashua> Ah.
<_MMA_> I wonder how I can figure out what images the apps are referencing short of pulling the source.
<_MMA_> (and without messin' with the set)
<dashua> These dialogs are not complete on Jaunty it seems.  They are not pulling in the theme.
<_MMA_> dashua: If you look, I actually can't apply *any* theme to them.
<_MMA_> Outside of GNOME that is.
<dashua> Yeah, it's not even taking Clearlooks
<dashua> Think it still needs some work
<dashua> http://picpaste.com/Screenshot-Shut_Down_the_Computer.png
<_MMA_> dashua: Yep. Ok. Seems like something out of my control.
<dashua> Yeah, for now until this is fixed.
<dashua> I haven't checked for a bug report yet.
<_MMA_> Man that makes me bummed.
<_MMA_> Ok. Well, time to update the wiki.
<dashua> Power option icons look good, better on lighter theme actually
<dashua> You missed the outline on darker themes
<dashua> miss*
<_MMA_> Man that fade between wallpaper changes needs to be set faster.
<dashua> It's pretty fast, about a second
<savvas> looks good here as well
<_MMA_> dashua: Since it's CPU-driven, maybe it's me. Though, I never thought I'd see the day when a 1.3ghz CPU wasn't enough to gracefully fade a wallpaper.
<_MMA_> It kinda steps here.
<dashua> Ha yeah.
<_MMA_> tick, tick, tick.
<dashua> http://picpaste.com/pics/Screenshot_5.1234987608.png
<dashua> That is really nice.
<_MMA_> Not too shabby. :)
<lucazade> dashua how do you get that notification style?
<dashua> Just landed in Jaunty.
<lucazade> :) tnx
<dashua> It's their new system.
<lucazade> let me update jaunty ..
<lucazade> alsdorf what a name!
<_MMA_> :P
<dashua> It's going to change to notify-osd, alsdorf look like docs
<dashua> I think
<dashua> Evolution just worked, nice
<lucazade> seems pretty.. i'm using jaunty under vbox
<dashua> Yeah, it's pretty.
<lucazade> compiled alsdorf on intrepid.. nice with composite activated
<_MMA_> Compiz *still* doesn't work here on Intel.
<Cimi> tretle: are the notifications with buttons as before or the thing posted by shuttleworth?
<lucazade> the one posted by mark
<lucazade> only passive, no interaction
<Cimi> another reason not to install ubuntu :)
<lucazade> far better than notification daemon, if it was a difficult thing
<tretle> tut tut tut :D
<Cimi> lucazade: i prefer the notification daemon
<tretle> I personally prefer how android handles notifications
<lucazade> '80 style
<Cimi> buttons are important and they are used in a lot of ways
<Cimi> they could have themed notification-daemon instead rewriting their usage
<Cimi> this patch will be ubuntu-only since it doesn't work on a lot of applications (packagekit,  system updaters, rhythmbox, banshee, lastfm, gnome-do...<)
<tretle> it will be gone in gnome 3.0 anyway most likely
<tretle> cimi it works on rhythmbox
<tretle> and gnome do
<tretle> that I have tested
<Cimi> yes, but how about action buttons?
<tretle> there are none
<Cimi> when "a new plugin is avaible, upgrade now"
<Cimi> there are
<Cimi> maybe on ubuntu they were removed
<tretle> not for rhythmbox
<Cimi> that's why I think those notifications are not good
<_MMA_> In the end, Celeste hit the nail on the head. Too bad well-though-out, educated analysis often falls on deaf ears around here. http://weblog.obso1337.org/2009/response-to-the-proposed-canonical-notification-system/
<Cimi> tretle: iirc rhythmbox has "skip this song"
<tretle> and as for do the notifications I have seen thus far, twitter plugin etc all seem to work
<tretle> cimi I think your thinking of banshee, I never noticed buttons on the rhythmbox notifications
<Cimi> ok
<Cimi> I'm sure packagekit has
<tretle> though they might have been patched like you say
<Cimi> and maybe banshee or lastfm
<Cimi> i have "skip this song"
<Cimi> or similar
<lucazade> i like a lot the translucency effect, really useful during work
<tretle> ubuntu doesnt currently use packagekit as default in jaunty
<Cimi> tretle: this is not a reason to break it
<tretle> sometimes things need a breaking
<tretle> :D
<tretle> though I agree in this case it didnt need a breaking
<tretle> but its still nice
<tretle> :D
<Cimi> tretle: they could have themed the previous system
<Cimi> I just don't understand why we should have those useless blobs
<tretle> useless blobs?
<Cimi> yeah
<tretle> to notify you i presume
<Cimi> if they don't have actions, why we should have a desktop full of those blobs?
<Cimi> anyway
<tretle> which was the original intent of the previous system before it was butchered
<Cimi> cimi /stops rant
<lucazade> :)
<tretle> much like the notification tray, instead of just fixing the tasks applet
<tretle> :D
<Cimi> screenshot anyway?
<lucazade> http://picpaste.com/pics/Screenshot_5.1234987608.png
<tretle> hmmm... didnt notice it now handles the sound too
<tretle> lucazade - have you been able to have multiple notifications stacked like in marks blog post?
<Cimi> no shadows?
<lucazade> no, i tried with the mail notification
<lucazade> only one
<Cimi> i don't like them without the shadows
<lucazade> http://img516.imageshack.us/img516/695/schermatamx5.png
<lucazade> 1Â°C .. how is cold!!
<lucazade> i can't figure out how alsdorf autostart in the session
<tretle> stacking notifications also seems to work
<tretle> http://img87.imageshack.us/img87/9537/screenshotrg5.png
<Cimi>  			Johan Says: 						
<Cimi> 			February 18th, 2009 at 11:05 pm   			The new notifications look nice. But Iâm, well, less than enthusiastic, about notifications with actions having turned into ordinary dialog boxes that have to be dismissed manually.   		
<Cimi> oh that's is really bad
<Cimi> dialogs as in windows xp
<tretle> thats a gtk# bug
<tretle> your very judgmental of others work when u haven't even used it yet
<tretle> by the way did u go to the gtk hackfest?
<Cimi> tretle: it's not a gtk bug
<Cimi> tretle: the new notifications don't handle actions
<Cimi> so they translate action notifications into dialogs
<tretle> boo hoo
<tretle> :)
<tretle> actions were overused and as a result were taken out
<_MMA_> I can cay this. we're gonna remove it from Ubuntu Studio. I already see sever areas where I don't like it.
<tretle> :(
<tretle> see what uv done cimi
<tretle> :D
<tretle> lol
<Cimi> I'm proud of it
<tretle> why?
<Cimi> cause I don't like those notifications
<_MMA_> Trust me. Cimi doesn't influence me at all.
<_MMA_> ;)
<Cimi> _MMA_: grrr
#ubuntu-artwork 2009-02-19
<dilomo> hey guys what's up?
<dilomo> thorwil: interested to see my new progressbars?
<dilomo> and sliders
 * dilomo is going out for 5 min
 * dilomo back
<dilomo> _MMA_:  you, interested?
<_MMA_> Sure. Ill take a look.
<thorwil> dilomo: sure
<dilomo> thorwil: http://www.piccdrop.com/images/1235062140.png
<thorwil> dilomo: vertical ones look quite different from horizontal editions
<dilomo> thorwil: that's normal because if I want o make the horizontal look ok
<dilomo> i have to make the verical like this
<thorwil> sucks
<thorwil> but, do you know any place where they are used?
<dilomo> thorwil: no I haven't seen any. I havent seen reverse horiz either.
<dilomo> thorwil: what do you think of the sliders?
 * dilomo brb
<thorwil> dilomo: i think you should try to make the orange bar look flat
<thorwil> to give the whole thing the feel of a display, not substance
<_MMA_> thorwil: Why does a display need to be flat?
<thorwil> _MMA_: doesn't. i said he should try it
<_MMA_> "I think you should try to make the orange bar look flat to give the whole thing the feel of a display, not substance"
<_MMA_> What does that exactly mean then?
<dilomo> thorwil: hmm new wave 0.7.x is all flat : http://gnome-look.org/content/preview.php?preview=3&id=87134&file1=87134-1.jpg&file2=87134-2.jpg&file3=87134-3.jpg&name=New+Wave
<_MMA_> thorwil: To me, it reads: "A computer UI isn't a real thing do it shouldn't have depth or dimension like real things." :)
<thorwil> _MMA_: your parser sucks
<thorwil> _MMA_: i referred to the specific case of a progress bar
<_MMA_> thorwil: Sure. Apply what I interpreted you saying to the progressbar.
<thorwil> _MMA_: a non-interactive widget. not letting the positive bar have an edge could help to make the whole widget look like a single thing. one that has no user-draggable element
<_MMA_> Ahh..... Clearer.
<thorwil> please don't go ryan-prior on me!!
<_MMA_> Who is that?
<thorwil> _MMA_: the guy who was so nice to impl ythat kyudo would be a useless resource
<dilomo> so you guys like the sliders?
<thorwil> _MMA_: who claimed to have read it all 3 times and still showed strong signs of not getting it at all. am i such a terrible writer?
<_MMA_> thorwil: I English, sure. :P
 * _MMA_ runs.
<_MMA_> *In
<_MMA_> dilomo: Go with your gut.
<thorwil> yeah
<_MMA_> dilomo: What type of hinting are you using?
<_MMA_> Somethings screwed with it atm here on Jaunty.
<dilomo> well sec
<_MMA_> Look at this: http://img3.imageshack.us/img3/5720/screenshotah5.png Look at all the "w". That's with full hinting. A reboot makes it go away but it comes back.
<dilomo> subpixel (lcd) smoothing + full hinting
<dilomo> I'm not using jaunty yet
<tretle> is that the indicator applet?
 * dilomo dinner, be back
<_MMA_> tretle: ?
<tretle> in the screenshot?
<_MMA_> You need to be more specific. I have no clue what you're talking about. Where in the screenshot?
<thorwil> grrr. compiz is such a memory bitch
<dilomo> thorwil: yes but it gives the desktop the abiliti to look better. See what ppl think:
<dilomo> http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1062599
<thorwil> dilomo: what do you think why i'm using it despite having to kill it once in a while ;)
<dilomo> :) I wish it was more lightwiight but probably in time it will become
 * thorwil -> dinner
 * dilomo -> watching tv
 * _MMA_ -> tinkering with Miro. http://www.getmiro.com
#ubuntu-artwork 2009-02-20
<joshjtl> who in gods name decides on ubuntu artwork... they should stop
<joshjtl> default art is supposed to be widely acceptable, it never has been on ubuntu
<_MMA_> Please take your trolling elsewhere.
<joshjtl> _MMA_: I'm just stating my opinion... thats not trolling
<joshjtl> If I hurt your feelings, I'm sorry
<joshjtl> trolling... sheesh
<_MMA_> What reaction do you expect? New person in a channel that says that. Thin next time.
<_MMA_> *Think
<joshjtl> uh what do you want me to say.., "I love ubuntu artwork" If I dont feel it!!???
<joshjtl> think next time, dont feel
<joshjtl> pussy
<joshjtl> fuck you
<_MMA_> hahaha. And I'm the puss. :P
<tretle> :)
<tretle> out of curiosity who actually decides?
<_MMA_> Canonical
<SealV> http://www.piccdrop.com/images/1235095736.png
<_MMA_> SealV: Not bad. :)
<SealV> thanks
<MRIguy> Anyone awake still?
<SealV> yes
<MRIguy> I jumped onto the wiki and took a look at the artwork section
<MRIguy> interesting points of view
<MRIguy> Since I am new to this channel, any themers on board?
<SealV> I believe Cimi is developing the murrine engine...
<MRIguy> murrine engine... I saw some artwork based on that during my wiki hunt
<MRIguy> IS there more info on the engine?
<SealV> http://www.cimitan.com/murrine/project/murrine
 * MRIguy looking
<_MMA_> MRIguy: Also join the mailing list to get up to speed on the active projects.
<Cimi> SealV: clearlooks too
<SealV> :o
<Cimi> i'm the maintainer of gtk-engines and gnome-themes-extrrsa
<Cimi> for gnome
<_MMA_> Cimi: You want another gold star? :P
<SealV> lol
<_MMA_> hehehe
<SealV> Cimi: a good tutorial/guide for pizbuf/pixmap engine?
<SealV> *pixbuf
<Cimi> _MMA_: yeah
<Cimi> _MMA_: if you have some idea...
<Cimi> sq
<Cimi> SealV: no, you should not use the pixbuf engine
<_MMA_> Cimi: Because...?
<SealV> no other way, I want to try to make a better 'wood ' theme
<Cimi> _MMA_: a lot of minor reasons
<_MMA_> Cimi: Please don't say speed.
<Cimi> _MMA_: you already said :)
<SealV> regardless, can any other engine handle textures?
<Cimi> SealV: experience and css
<SealV> and out of those which do you recommend
<Cimi> pixbuf
<Cimi> or experience
<Cimi> maybe pixbuf
<SealV> =__=
<_MMA_> Cimi: The speed issue is a myth perpetrated by nerds arguing over nanoseconds *years* ago. Any speed arguments are completely useless on modern HW.
<_MMA_> So any issues /other/ than speed I'd like to hear about.
<SealV> how about 0 useful documentation
<_MMA_> +1 there.
<_MMA_> Cimi has been a perfect example of great documentation. ;)
<MRIguy> _MMA_: I'm currently on a business trip in New York area. I'll look into the mailing list when I get back next week.
<MRIguy> pixmap?
<MRIguy> pixbuf?
<_MMA_> MRIguy: That would be great. Are you an artist of any sort? Portfolio?
<MRIguy> Hang on: Some URLs
<_MMA_> MRIguy: They are the engines behind themes you see on GNOME.
<_MMA_> MRIguy: So you install a "engine" on your Linux box and code for that particular one. There are only a couple major ones.
<MRIguy> One of my more recent themes -
<MRIguy> http://themes.freshmeat.net/projects/darkside/
<MRIguy> http://themes.freshmeat.net/projects/explorergtk/
<MRIguy> I rendered the background pics for both themes
<_MMA_> MRIguy: Huh? Wait. You have made GNOME themes but don't know what pixmap is?
<MRIguy> Pixmap is the common denominator in Linux distros
<MRIguy> I know what a engine is.. I was just pulling your leg.
<MRIguy> Distros which use Gnome
<_MMA_> MRIguy: You have no clue the folks we get in here. SO for someone new to come in and ask is not uncommon.
<MRIguy> I understand.
<MRIguy> I have themes for KDE and Window Maker as well
<MRIguy> Been doing themes since KDE 2.0
<MRIguy> I recently branched into Metacity/GTK
<SealV> :( I had to google cimi's site ya know...anyways..welcome
<MRIguy> I post my works on freshmeat.net
<MRIguy> Want some background which I did?
<_MMA_> Well I gotta run. MRIguy: See ya on the mailing list.
<MRIguy> background images, that is
<MRIguy> _MMA_ : Good luck
<MRIguy> Is murrine going to make it into the Gnome world? What I mean  is : will we see it distributed along side pixmap and clearlook?
<MRIguy> Everyone have a nice evening. Bye Bye.
<Cimi> _MMA_: speed is an issue like others (expecially on the new netbooks or mobile devices) but it's not the main one. with those engine you lose a lot of configurability, inheritance between widgets, color adjustment and whatever makes your theme consisent. with a pixmap theme you'll never reach a theme perfect overll, those themes are good for simple alternatives, but are not suitable for a default
<Cimi> anyway I'm tired, going to bed
<Cimi> night SealV
<SealV> night cimi
 * tretle thinks that the ubuntu icon theme should be replaced with a mofified version of gnome-colors
<tretle> the human variant that is
<ziroday> tretle: have you seen breathe, its very nice.
<tretle> don't personally like it
<tretle> think the icons need to be brighter
<tretle> Quite like the mango icon theme though, which is of similar spec to breath and oxegen except nice and bright
<tretle> Hate the current icon theme
<tretle> yet nothing seems to change release to release
<ziroday> tretle: can't seem to find the mango icon theme, link?
<tretle> http://jimmac.musichall.cz/i.php?i=Tango-NG
<ziroday> tretle: thanks
<tretle> np
<ziroday> tretle: ah I've seen those before, but they're not in the PD
<tretle> pd?
<savvas> cool notifications!! http://img100.imageshack.us/img100/1909/mootu0.png
<ziroday> savvas: mine aren't starting :(
<_MMA_> savvas: Depends on what "cool" refers to for me. /Looks/ sure. As far as a consistent and bug-free replacement for what's there, no.
<savvas> ziroday: right click on rhythmbox, check "show notifications" and switch your song
<savvas> ziroday: it's for jaunty by the way :)
<ziroday> savvas: yep, got it now :)
<savvas> _MMA_: so far I've noticed it on rhythmbox and apport, but.. have you seen any bugs?
<ziroday> volume doesn't work
<_MMA_> ziroday: Switch to the Human theme.
<_MMA_> ziroday: But that should be fixed soon.
<ziroday> _MMA_: there is no high color fallback?
<_MMA_> No
<ziroday> wha..?
<ziroday> wouldn't that be sensible
<_MMA_> The icons were mistakenly put in the Human theme.
<ziroday> hmph
<_MMA_> Filed a bug. Already fixed. Just wait for the update.
<ziroday> _MMA_: ah great :)
 * ziroday sends a sixpack to _MMA_ 
<_MMA_> I think it should get moved to hicolor but it's getting moved to gnome.
<ziroday> as long as their is a fall back
<ziroday> hmm it doesn't play nice with banshee either
<_MMA_> savvas: I get oddness with mail-notification for one. Where in addition to the pop-up I get a metacity framed window. There's still work to be done for Jaunty on it I'm told. I still might remove it from Studio as it's just bling and I think I wanna give it a cycle to mature.
<Cimi> _MMA_: and it is broken without compiz
<_MMA_> +1
<ziroday> then whats the fallback if compiz isn't running?
<Cimi> yeah
<Cimi> but it is absolutely UGLY
<ziroday> right
<Cimi> try to hover it
<Cimi> you'll have strange effects
<Cimi> notifications looks better with the old notification-daemon
<Cimi> when no compiz is running
<ziroday> at least its easy to remove
<_MMA_> For me, when I hover it disappears except for a outline of the dialog.
<Cimi> yeah
<Cimi> _MMA_: this is not so bling
<Cimi> but there's no solution
<Cimi> without compiz you don't have the alpha channel and you must do totally black or totally transparent
<_MMA_> Cimi: Like I said, there's still ongoing work. This just hit so judge it harshly when they actually release Jaunty. ;)
<Cimi> _MMA_: the thing could improve for compiz/metacity with composite
<Cimi> but will never be fixed for non-composited screens
<Cimi> because there's no solution
<Cimi> so, it will be broken or ugly or whateve you call it
<ziroday> Cimi: but nearly all the new cards nowadays support compositing
<Cimi> all
<Cimi> metacity compositing doesn't require a video card
<Cimi> it works with the CPU  if the card doesn't support it
<ziroday> Cimi: but isn't that seriously slow?
<Cimi> but personally I don't like to enable those transparencies
<Cimi> ziroday: depends on the cpu
<Cimi> anyway
<ziroday> Cimi: right
<Cimi> I'm not using it on the netbook
<Cimi> compiz drains my battery
<_MMA_> ziroday: Yes. This is what I talk about often. On alot of levels we can't continue to think about the lowest common denominator.
<ziroday> _MMA_: definitely, in a lot of ways its better to look into the future then stay in the past :). If that past gets a slightlier buggier version then salavi. They can easily remove the new notifications if they want
<_MMA_> Agreed.
<Cimi> compiz is full of issues
<Cimi> should not be used imho
<ziroday> _MMA_: also great work on breathe, absolutely love it
<_MMA_> Actually, I think it would be best to have a switch somewhere to turn 'em off.
<Cimi> try to open gimp
<Cimi> or totem
<Cimi> or firefox at fullscreen
<_MMA_> ziroday: Thanx. It's coming along.
<Cimi> it's full of issues
<Cimi> I really hope in mutter
<ziroday> _MMA_: I was under the impression that the Pop-up Notifications settings in Admin > Preferences was meant to have that
<_MMA_> ziroday: I just lost that dialog so I assumed it was for the old system. I'll look again.
<Cimi> _MMA_: open powertop and see how compiz drains your battery
<ziroday> _MMA_: well that would be the intelligent place to put it from my point of view
<_MMA_> Cimi: Nothing that make apps unusable though. Just annoying. I am very happy to see that they are finally pulling things together and getting all these forks stopped.
<Cimi> _MMA_: compiz is dead
<_MMA_> Cimi: Though an obvious major use-case, I don't use laptops that aren't plugged in.
<ziroday> Cimi: I think the new compiz++ efforts as well as hard coding some options and eventually phasing out ccsm is a great leap forwards
<ziroday> err take an s of forwards
<Cimi> ziroday: words words words
<ziroday> Cimi: but those goals are reachable, easily reachable in fact.
<Cimi> I would be excited to see that compiz will not dead
<_MMA_> Cimi: You make alot of blanket statements like that without qualifying them.
<Cimi> but at the moment compiz is a dead project
<Cimi> _MMA_: when davidr started workin on the other project
<ziroday> Cimi: plus compiz++ development has already started, around 40% of the core has been re-written
<Cimi> compiz development was confusing
<_MMA_> Cimi: Lets go into #compiz and watch you defend that statement.
<ziroday> Cimi: and compiz++ will mean all the plugins have to be ported, alot of the dodgier ones will be dropped
<Cimi> it's like going in #ubuntu-artwork saying orange/brown it's a bad colorscheme
<_MMA_> Like I said, they are pulling the forks in under Compiz. The project is far feom dead.
<_MMA_> *from
<Cimi> I'm not blaming the colorscheme here
<ziroday> Cimi: as well as an awful lot of settings hardcoded, eventually ccsm will die
<Cimi> wait for mutter
<Cimi> people will use mutter not compiz
<Cimi> compiz is about to dead in my opinion
<_MMA_> We'll see. :)
<Cimi> yeha it's only a feeling
<ziroday> and quinn said she might come back to kick it back alive again
<Cimi> rewriting in c++ is not a solution
<Cimi> I really hope not
<Cimi> beryl was a chaotic window manager
<Cimi> full of dirty effects
<_MMA_> IMO, the solution needs to come from GNOME or get pulled into GNOME. That would kill anything else. Like KDE did.
<Cimi> _MMA_: there's mutter
<Cimi> compiz is about to die
<Cimi> kwin works better
<Cimi> and mutter, even slower and without the amount of effects that compiz has
<Cimi> will be my choice for usability and stability
<Cimi> I'm tired of gimp issues, kde applications (they all start without window borders!!!) and similar problems
<Cimi> compiz doesn't remember the position of the windows (nautilus)
<_MMA_> Never seen that. Honestly.
<Cimi> I don't want the flames when I close the window with all those issues
<_MMA_> That isn't on by default come on. But it's fun to have.
<Cimi> first fix the issue and make it stable as metacity, with the freedesktop compliance
<Cimi> and THEN it will be a good choice
<Cimi> _MMA_: yeah it could be fun, but before the fun comes the compatibility
<Cimi> and compiz is full of issues
<Cimi> because the developers are more interested in effects than in fixing bugs
<Cimi> at least that's what we said
<Cimi> a fork
<Cimi> why the hell we should rewrite an entire project in c++??
<_MMA_> Cimi: I'm sorry man but atm you sound like the minority. If *everyone* or even the majority of people had these issues all the major distros would not be shipping Compiz.
<Cimi> distro ship compiz because the newbies need for the "wow" aero-like impression
<Cimi> compiz moved a lot of windows users to linux/ubuntu
<_MMA_> Cimi: And ranting here, isn't gonna fix it. Man. I know Italians are "passionate" but there's way more important stuff to get worked up about. :P
<Cimi> yeah, like fixing compiz issues
<Cimi> and freedesktop compliancy
<_MMA_> hahahha
<_MMA_> No.
<_MMA_> Like *real life* issues. ;)
<andreasn> don't composited metacity pretty much do the same as compiz by default on ubuntu?
<_MMA_> Compiz being FreeDesktop compliant won't find me a job.
<Cimi> _MMA_: ubuntu won't find you a job
<Cimi> or a woman
<_MMA_> Cimi: Exactly. So why get worked up about it like you are? :)
<Cimi> andreasn: pretty much the same
<Cimi> _MMA_: cause I'm seeing my girlfriend in two hours
<Cimi> now I don't have too much to do :)
<Cimi> and I've already seen the simpsons episode on the tv
<_MMA_> Cimi: Still, not worth it. ;)
<kwwii> andreasn: hey, I was looking for you yesterday :)
<kwwii> andreasn: I guess you saw the notification stuff?
<_MMA_> Cimi: At least you don't use lots of punctuation!!!!?????
<Cimi> kwwii: please pull the notify-osd icons inside hicolor
<_MMA_> Cimi: Or maybe you save that for other channels. :P
<andreasn> kwwii, yes, I read through the document briefly, but I haven't tried it out
<kwwii> andreasn: well, as far as the icons go it is basically like this:
<kwwii> we have the ubuntu icons in the human theme
<kwwii> and I picked a bunch of gnome icons and put them directly in the pacakge
<kwwii> that is not the long term solution, naturally
<kwwii> but it does allow for people to choose another theme and still have icons
<Cimi> kwwii: hicolor
<Cimi> put them inside hicolor
<_MMA_> kwwii: But as everything falls back to hicolor that would be best. It's why I mentioned it in the bug report.
<Cimi> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/notify-osd/+bug/331849
<Cimi> ?
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 331849 in notify-osd "Notify-osd icons should be installed for hicolor" [Undecided,New]
<_MMA_> Cimi: No. I had one also.
<kwwii> Cimi: it also works fine the way we are oding it now
<kwwii> doing
<kwwii> we very well might change things
<kwwii> but for now it works ok
<andreasn> kwwii, in the earliest mockups it looked like the icons would be monochrome, any specific reason you didn't en up doing that?
<Cimi> kwwii: it doesn't work on my desktop because I'm not using ubuntu artworks
<andreasn> kwwii, because the background of the notification will always be black, right?
<_MMA_> Cimi: If you're using Ubuntu, but not the Human theme, it will be fixed soom because the images are being moved to the GNOME set.
<kwwii> andreasn: right
<_MMA_> But I agree hicolor is a better place.
<Cimi> _MMA_: but *why* the gnome set and not hicolor?
<kwwii> _MMA_: they are not being moved to the gnome set
<kwwii> they are part of the package now
<Cimi> I'm not using gnome too :-)
<Cimi> kwwii: it is odd
<Cimi> hicolor is the right place
<Cimi> andreasn: what do you think?
<Cimi> you're our icon guru
<_MMA_> kwwii: SO they will now be hard-coded and unthemeable?
<andreasn> yes, hicolor sounds like the correct place, because then everyone would see them and we can override it in HighContrast for example
<andreasn> I guess the icons are pretty monocrome + some gradient thing
<andreasn> I like them
<andreasn> is the plan to push the notifications upstream soon?
<kwwii> I'll look into this closer and see what I can do
<kwwii> andreasn: yes
<_MMA_> kwwii: If so, that's a big FAIL IMO. If nothing other than andreasn's example.
<_MMA_> Hell. What do I care. I'm pulling it from Studio anyway. :P
<andreasn> some people will probably kick and scream, but I think they are cool :)
<kwwii> I think the idea is pretty cool, people should give it time to mature
<andreasn> _MMA_, well, they are pretty monocrome already and possible to see with bad eyesight
<_MMA_> andreasn: Cool yes, but not having the ability to consistently theme them is fail IMO.
<_MMA_> andreasn: I'll have a blind friend look over them.
<andreasn> is his regular theme HighContrast? if so, forward my apologies that we suck in that department :(
<_MMA_> kwwii: Do you know if they (the notifications) work with the current assistive tech?
<andreasn> time for lunch, later!
<kwwii> _MMA_: no idea
<_MMA_> kwwii: I guess you're really not the best guy to bug about it. I'll just look into it and file lots of bugs.
<_MMA_> ;)
<kwwii> :)
<thorwil> hmm. a bzr commit during an ongoing push shouldn't be a problem, or?
<_MMA_> I wouldn't risk it.
<_MMA_> thorwil: You working in 2 terminals in the same branch?
<thorwil> _MMA_: no. not yet :)
<_MMA_> thorwil: Well I think you would be fine on separate branches. But if trying to commit to a branch you are pushing just sounds like trouble.
<thorwil> kwwii: i recently noticed that the LP terms state that a branch _has_ to contain at least some source code. that means i'm currently breaking the rules. could you do a little lobbying, make the ones responsible think of artwork needs?
<thorwil> _MMA_: i will practice patience, then
<kwwii> thorwil: wow, that sounds funky
<kwwii> thorwil: I would create a bug about that
<_MMA_> thorwil: So wait, you're saying that a team *needs* code in a branch?
<thorwil> interesting idea. didn't think that could be the target of a report
<thorwil> _MMA_: it's likely not the intention, but have a look at https://help.launchpad.net/Legal/ProjectLicensing
<thorwil> "To use Launchpad free of charge, a software project must meet these conditions."
<thorwil> "It must include source code. " ...
<thorwil> well, i have a bash script included to turn PNGs into JPGs and thumbnails ^^
<_MMA_> Ok. To me, it relates to a project, not teams. But the language could be changed a bit.
<_MMA_> thorwil: The script is the code in that case.
<_MMA_> *source code
<thorwil> all my other branches include SVGs, though calling those source code ...
<_MMA_> It is.
<_MMA_> Art is always a odd thing. There's no way to know if a renders PNG came from a SVG so there it just comes down to license.
<_MMA_> *rendered
<thorwil> kwwii: where/how to file against LP?
<_MMA_> "Launchpad itself"
<_MMA_> https://bugs.launchpad.net/launchpad/+filebug
<_MMA_> thorwil: But I really don't think it's worth it. Maybe just have a chat on #launchpad.
<thorwil> _MMA_: thanks. did you reach that by simply entering launchpad as project?
<_MMA_> Well if you search "launchpad" in Launchpad one of the results will be: "Launchpad itself".
<thorwil> https://bugs.launchpad.net/launchpad/+bug/332160
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 332160 in launchpad "Legal/ProjectLicensing is problematic for artwork" [Undecided,New]
<savvas> Karmic Koala :)
<savvas> next ubuntu codename
<thorwil> and i thought you were joking :)
<savvas> :P
<SealV> Karmic koala? *sigh* Mark really loves difficult animals..and complex concepts...
 * _MMA_ updates Breathe's packaging files. jaunty->karmic
<SealV> on the plus side, there is no way to not make a koala cute..
<_MMA_> hehe
<_MMA_> Though, from what I've heard, Intrepid is the last we will see of officially used (shipped as default) mascot wallpapers.
<SealV> thanks the benevolent dictators
<SealV> so the focus will be on the descriptor?
<_MMA_> SealV: I think it's a safe bet from here on out it will be some generic abstract sorta thing like past releases.
<SealV> Brown has served us well but
<SealV> the Koala is considering other options.
<SealV> oh my SealV is getting a bit exicited
<_MMA_> SealV: Don't get too excited. Just remember we are powerless over default. ;)
<SealV> I know but I  would love to see where they will be taking this.didn't a team just form at cononical?
<_MMA_> Yep
<dashua> _MMA_: You shouldn't have to remove notify-osd.  You can install gnome-stracciatella-session for an upstream session.
<dashua> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopTeam/Specs/Jaunty/StracciatellaSession
<dashua> Haven't tried it yet.  I think there were some dependency issues.
<_MMA_> Hmm...
<_MMA_> Lemmie look into that.
<dashua> I just copied the icons from Human into Breathe and they seem to be working.
<dashua> Battery, sound, display, no wifi
<_MMA_> dashua: Well you should wait. There's gonna be a Ubuntu update.
<dashua> Also the issue with compiz needs a window match.
<dashua> !(title=notify-osd)
<ubottu> Error: I am only a bot, please don't think I'm intelligent :)
<dashua> Needs to be added to open, close, and fading windows
<dashua> Think there is a patch coming, but it's easy to add manually.
<dashua> _MMA_: Yeah, I saw the bug report.  Cool
<_MMA_> Hmm... Ok. I gotta weigh what to use for Studio.
<dashua> It's still rather buggy, but looks great IMHO
<dashua> Stacking is quite nice
<_MMA_> Wel wait. This gnome-stracciatella-session creates a new x-session option.
<_MMA_> Like after you install XFCE or KDE on Ubuntu?
<dashua> The Karmic Koala will have a new look away from brown.
<dashua> Will the complaints finally cease? =/
<dashua> Not sure.  I think there were some python issues with it.
<dashua> Ken Vandine was talking about the other day.
<dashua> it*
<_MMA_> Ill talk to him. I know him personally.
<dashua> It wasn't pulling in some dependencies, but may be fixed by now.
<dashua> Yeah, he's an awesome guy.
<dashua> I used Foresight for a bit.
<_MMA_> I just hope he finds a Job. :(
<dashua> He did.
<dashua> He works for Canonical.
<dashua> Desktop Engineer
<dashua> http://blogs.gnome.org/kenvandine/
<dashua> Another asset to the team.
<_MMA_> WTF!!!???
<dashua> Yeah
<dashua> I thought the same thing.
<dashua> Ubuntu just got a whole lot better.
<SealV> what happened? why is mma confused?
<SealV> bbl
<kwwii> yeah, we just hired him
<_MMA_> kwwii: I just gave him a earful. :P
<dashua> kwwii: Is the wifi notification working for you or has that not been enabled yet?
<dashua> I see there are some icons there.
<kwwii> dashua: not sure what you mean
<kwwii> but I am guessing that network manager has not been patched yet
<dashua> Yeah, that's it.  The other icons look nice. :)
#ubuntu-artwork 2009-02-21
<PRGUY85> hey friends
<PRGUY85> what will be done about Breathe and new notifications?
<AnAnt> is it be easy to make plymouth themes as it is for usplash ?
<PRGUY85> hello?
<MRIguy> Hello _MMA_. Did your suggestion and joined the mailing list
<_MMA_> cool
<MRIguy> What did you think about the theme URL I sent the other day?
<_MMA_> MRIguy: What's your name on the list?
<MRIguy> tkocou@gmail.com
<MRIguy> I don't remember if I put a 'real' name on it or not.
<_MMA_> Remember the title of the post?
<_MMA_> MRIguy: I deal with *alot* of people and mail everyday.
<MRIguy> My apologies. One tends to forget little things like that
<_MMA_> Sorry. Its hard then to figure out which post is yours.
<MRIguy> That's ok.
<MRIguy> One last item, I was wondering if the engine, which Cimi is working on, is strictly in the 'extra' packaging?
<_MMA_> MRIguy: What engine is Cimi working? I only know about Clearlooks and Murrine.
<MRIguy> Murrine
<_MMA_> Murrine is already packaged and in the default install of Ubuntu.
<MRIguy> Cool. So, One could do some theming using it.
<_MMA_> Yes.
<MRIguy> Take care everyone, better half is calling
#ubuntu-artwork 2009-02-22
<Yasumoto> Hey guys, is there a decent font viewer for Linux?
<_MMA_> Yasumoto: How comprehensive a one are you looking for?
<_MMA_> Personally, I use Fontmatrix. Really killer. It's a manager also.
<Yasumoto> _MMA_: sweet, thanks
<Yasumoto> We also looked at gnome-specimen
<_MMA_> Yasumoto: It had promise but was throughly trumped by Fontmatrix IMO. I usually don't like using QT apps but it's really that outstanding.
<_MMA_> Correction: "I usually don't like using QT apps in a mostly GTK desktop..."
<Yasumoto> _MMA_: yeah, true
<andreasn> Yasumoto, you only need something to view, or something to activate/deactivate fonts as well?
<Cimi> _MMA_, I've added the focus theming in murrine. My goal was to make it good with dark and bright colorschemes. This focus theming maybe is not as cool as clearlooks's but works with much more colorschemes than clearlooks's, It is a good compromise between look (better than dotted ring) and compatibility http://img207.imageshack.us/img207/5132/schermata.png http://img207.imageshack.us/img207/3387/schermatam.png
<Cimi> lucazade, http://img207.imageshack.us/img207/5132/schermata.png http://img207.imageshack.us/img207/3387/schermatam.png
<Cimi> lucazade, squared is better imho
<lucazade> i think the same cimi
<Cimi> lucazade, I have committed
<lucazade> better squared (i'm squared as well atm)
<lucazade> seen
<Cimi> I have some doubts with the treeview row
<Cimi> it is really hard to find a good theming
<lucazade> depends a lot on selected_bg?
<Cimi> exactly
<lucazade> ;)
<lucazade> i like this kind of focus, you made a good choice
<Cimi> it's a rip of skulpture
<lucazade> don't care about ripping
<lucazade> i dn't
<lucazade> i don't care
<lucazade> if it was a good choice in skulpture, why don't take inspiration?!
<Cimi> lucazade, did you tested with dark colorschemes?
<lucazade> not yet
<lucazade> just come back from a carnival party, feel a little bit drunk :D
<lucazade> Cimi http://img410.imageshack.us/img410/7479/84543255.png
<Cimi> seems ok
<Cimi> isn't it?
<_MMA_> Not bad.
<lucazade> yes seems good
<lucazade> it's late.. going to bed
<lucazade> bye all
 * _MMA_ has no clue the reply to the digest mailing list post meant.
<_MMA_> thorwil: What did you see that I didn't?
<thorwil> _MMA_: the attachment?
 * _MMA_ looks...
<_MMA_> My eyes!!!
<thorwil> mwahaha
<thorwil> _MMA_: it's already pretty awesome, but imagine that with an animated palette!
<_MMA_> I'm sorry. I try *really*, *really* hard not to put down people's ideas but *so* often people just have *no* clue what constitutes something that can actually be considered quality enought ship. Or even what it takes to make a good wallpaper.
<_MMA_> Is that swirly mess serious?
<_MMA_> They wanna see that *in* Ubuntu?
<thorwil> _MMA_: there are 2 options. mr. eigensatz is insane or he isn't serious. sad that i have to spell that out :)
<_MMA_> thorwil: I just don't know anymore.
<thorwil> instead of a moderated list, i would prefer to just kick specific people (or subscriptions, to be exact
<thorwil> that would include mr. eigensatz and that shadow* guy
<_MMA_> cozDS and ... There's a few.
 * thorwil stops tracing a 3d template for a background to go for a walk in a weather he imagines would be fitting for london
<_MMA_> :)
<tretle> Hi, how do I edit .theme files for icon themes?
<_MMA_> tretle: Text editor.
<tretle> it wont let me open with a gedit
<_MMA_> Drag and drop in
<tretle> there is no open with in the context menu
<_MMA_> thorwil: The jump idea is cool.
<_MMA_> https://launchpad.net/~breathe-dev/+archive/ppa
#ubuntu-artwork 2010-02-22
<zniavre> http://img718.imageshack.us/img718/2509/capturef.png  > futur rgba is just a fixed rgbamodule for gtk
<zniavre> throbber in nautilus ^^
<zniavre> good night
<mrmcq2u> lol @ epiphany + rgba hack on google.com :)
<kwwii> good morning
<darkmatter> o/
<darkmatter> http://img138.imageshack.us/img138/8753/screenshotnn.png
<iainfarrell> darkmatter: what you doin' flashin' that Suse stuff around here ;)
<iainfarrell> I like their green tint though it's subtle
<darkmatter> iainfarrell: trollin' ;p
<iainfarrell> :D
<darkmatter> I need to get back to work on my Sonar improvements. still needs a new menybar, fully skinned panel, metacity, maybe new scrollies
<iainfarrell> whoops
<iainfarrell> accidentally logged out there :0
<zniavre> good afternoon
<zniavre> don't you think the rgba ppa is a bit too much translucent ?
<Cimi> too much transparent
<zniavre> hello Cimi   (thank to correct me)
<Cimi> I did not correct you, just second your opinion :)
<Cimi> it makes widgets so transparent that it becomes not usable anymore
<zniavre> i tried this new ppa for lucid i quite sure it's more transparent than than the first gnome-look rgba module for gtk
<Cimi> it is because this ppa is patching murrine
<zniavre> yes from janhouse patch no?
<Cimi> I don't know who
<Cimi> but murrine is already able to use rgba, it does not require any patch at all
<zniavre> the guy who made the deviant art page
<Cimi> the author of the ppa is recompiling murrine with a custom configuration to increase transparency
<zniavre> he just modified the amount of "transparence"
<Cimi> yeah there are some values in src/support.h
<zniavre> i think it's too much for me, i came back to regular gtk/murrine without rgba support
<zniavre> im not so happy
<Cimi> just install the version from the official repository
<Cimi> or compile it from git
<zniavre> http://img718.imageshack.us/img718/2509/capturef.png   last night test
<Cimi> that sucks
<Cimi> too transparent
<zniavre> nautilus animation still bugged
<zniavre> :o)
<zniavre> ho a quick question: did you planed to add border_color to menu's ?
<Cimi> just adjust contrast
<zniavre> it makes border that's true but not at the color i would want to see black instead of grey)
<zniavre> anyway thank you again for work work on murrine i really like it
<zniavre> work>your*
<vish> Cimi: hi.. is there an option to use the old expander arrows instead of the -/+  ?
<Cimi> no, but I guess you could use clearlooks or plain gtk to do so
<zniavre> :o)
<vish> righto..
<fakeer> i want to change the icons folders and different file types without changing the fonts. what is the easiest ( hassle free) way for this?
<thorwil> oh boy: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Incoming/Lucid/New%20Ubuntu%20logo
<thorwil> kwwii: ^ should be moved, if not deleted, but i'm logging out now :}
<kwwii> good evening
#ubuntu-artwork 2010-02-23
<AnthonyZbierajew> Hey all
<ryanprior> Hi AnthonyZbierajew.
<AnthonyZbierajew> i have artwork i want to submit , how can i do this?
<ryanprior> What sort of artwork?
<AnthonyZbierajew> a wallpaper
<AnthonyZbierajew> , i was away...
<AnthonyZbierajew> you can see it here: http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=31000744&l=d8150e5d6c&id=1110400563
<AnthonyZbierajew> did you see it?
<ryanprior> Submit it in high-rez to http://www.flickr.com/groups/ubuntu-artwork/
<AnthonyZbierajew> did you like it?
<ryanprior> Looks pretty neat!
<AnthonyZbierajew> THANK YOU!!!!
<ryanprior> You bet. Thanks for your work. :-D
<AnthonyZbierajew> Im so happy i could just S*it!
<AnthonyZbierajew>  
<AnthonyZbierajew>  
<thorwil> kwwii: morning! did you act on that ubuntu logo redesign page yesterday? the original page is gone, but now there's https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Incoming/Lucid/Ubuntu%20logo%202.0
<zniavre> MsPaint can do some crazy stuff thorwil  ...   ^^
<darkmatter> dear. lord. that first logo concept makes me wish to go hurl upon the unwashed masses
<zniavre> :o)
<thorwil> it's gone, thanks to kwwii
<kwwii> hey kids
<kwwii> good morning
<thorwil> so i heard there is going to be a big announcement soon from Canonical about Ubuntu branding
<darkmatter> that they are continuing there vaguely disguised attempt at being a bastard mac? :O
<darkmatter> their*
<thorwil> heh
<vish> hmm , wonder how the gnome3 hackfest is going on in Milbank;)
<darkmatter> gnome 3 is a joke. I see no gnome 3. I see gnome 2 minus any and all direction being labeled as '3' in an attempted at excusing developer stupidity, and that's about it :P
<thorwil> darkmatter: you should be there on the "gnome3 hackfest", that would be fun
<vish> lol
<darkmatter> :D
<darkmatter> vish: one day you will all become as disillusioned as I, and will wonder how you ever managed to get bye with the blinders pulled so firmly over your eyes ;p
<darkmatter> then you too can be bluntly honest to the point of being labeled 'rude' :D
<vish> darkmatter: i wish i could be rude and get away with it like Linus ;p
<darkmatter> vish: hehe
<kwwii> vish: btw, we need to change one icon name...audio-volume-muted-blocking-panel.svg needs to be audio-volume-muted-blocked-panel.svg
<vish> kwwii: sure , np..
<thorwil> http://blogs.gnome.org/seth/2010/02/23/morality-plays/
<darkmatter> that has been tried and failed repeatedly. the problem is most of the hackers are narcissistic twats who believe their ui are golden turds of awesome. there are exceptions to the rule, but alas, in most cases you'll get a big 'fu'
<darkmatter> and as far as gnome goes, I'll I've seen are wannabes on both sides of the fence, so double pawsome fail
<thorwil> yeah, wannabes and narcissistic twats all the way down!! the whole of FLOSS (even that acronym is full of fail) should be shut down, as there is not the tiniest spark of hope in this big black morass of insulting ineptitude!!!
<darkmatter> for the most part. yes
<thorwil> darkmatter: why are you here, why do you waste moments of your precious life, as this mess clearly can't be worthy of even you nastiest comments, as this would grant too much attention to it?
<darkmatter> I'm here to do actual work, associate with the few real artists/designers that do hang about, and have fun laughing at those that find profound meaning in epic and broken bullshit. because being honest is awesome, being nasty about crap that's been repeated ad infinitum is even more awesome, because occasionally beating sense into the heads of the blind, deaf, and dumb actually succeeds
<Equiet> What exactly the "hacker" means?
<thorwil> darkmatter: i'm sure you will have a real impact on all 27 (minus bots) here by repeating the same insults again and again. which is not to say that you are wrong about some bullshit
<darkmatter> I see no insult in not candy coating the truth, nor do I see it as necessary to individually name or exclude people from a truthful statement. if one is to take insult from what I say, then they must perceive themselves as deserving of insult. *shrug*
<thorwil> darkmatter: i just see you throwing with dirt. you targets are either not here or do not care, so it sticks to the walls, making this an ugly place
<thorwil> Equiet: to the general public, "Hacker" may refer to people who break into other people's computer systems
<thorwil> Equiet: in the (free) software realm, "hacker" is often used as stand-in for developer
<thorwil> Equiet: although it implies a certain level of skill
<kwwii> as for me, I see this channel as a place to discuss and work towards a given goal, not just complain about how things are. Anyone an complain but not everyone can actually make things better
<thorwil> Equiet: there's an aura of "just do it" and bending rules, using things not quite as intended attached to it
<Equiet> There are much more hackers than designers and translators, right?
<thorwil> Equiet: i have no clue on the (relative) number of translators
<darkmatter> how are my 'targets' here? that's somewhat presumptuous, considering I was refering to foss in general. If I would have said 'ubuntu designers/developer are <blah>", then I could understand, but alas. I never
<thorwil> Equiet: there are surely many more people calling themselves hackers than designers
<thorwil> darkmatter: seems you missed a "not"
<thorwil> "you targets are either not here (...)"
<sanderqd> hi, has it been considered to use the droid sans font by default, instead of dejavu?
<kwwii> sanderqd: droid is a font which has designed for very small screens (and vertically oriented ones at that)
<kwwii> sanderqd: hope that answers your questions
<sanderqd> kwwii: it does, thanks!
#ubuntu-artwork 2010-02-24
<zniavre> good morning
<zniavre> why my old layout icons theme does not fully works anymore on Lucid (trash on nautilus sidepanel etc...)
<zniavre> do we hav to make icons theme as humanity does ? folder with differents size >16/22/24/32/48/64
<kwwii> zniavre: no, you can do it per size with the other bits beneath
<kwwii> zniavre: humanity is the only theme I know of which does it that way
<kwwii> zniavre: but it should not matter how you di it
<kwwii> do it
<kwwii> as long as the index.theme file points to the right dirs and such
<zniavre> i got worries with  trash icon
<kwwii> hrm, no idea what the problem could be
<kwwii> nothing has really changed in that respect
<zniavre> ok
<kwwii> zniavre: my only suggestion would be to look at the names in humanity and see if your stuff is using different names
<kwwii> the icon names, not their placement in the dirs is most important
<kwwii> as long as the dirs are listed in the index.theme file
<zniavre> yes im doing this (if my daughters can leave in peace it will be better)
<zniavre> :o)
<zniavre> thank you
<zniavre> ill check this after lunch time
<zniavre> bon appetit !
<zac_> Homosapien evolves - http://gnome-look.org/content/preview.php?preview=3&id=119496&file1=119496-1.png&file2=119496-2.png&file3=119496-3.png&name=Homosapien+Metacity+0.9+%2B+Customizer+0.3
<vish> zac_: neat work :)  do you plan to release it as a standalone tool? [that would be quite nice]
<zac_> hmm i wasnt planing to as its already accessible online
<zac_> thanks for the kind words also :-)
<vish> ;)
<kwwii> zac_: good stuff, I hope we can include it in lucid
<darkmatter> interesting: http://anubis-os.org/home/
<zac_> kwwii: ta. dashua said he would try to get it included so heres hoping
<thorwil> "Instead of cleaning up the operating environment, so that it gets simpler to understand, most systems today mask the operating system elements with heavy applications and software layers."
<darkmatter> yeah, they don't have the best wording, but I can agree with the general mindset. I'm not interested in joining the project (I'm not interested in creating clonish environments, lol), but will be keeping track of their progress
<darkmatter> the 'lowest common denominator' approach is something I've been on about for ages. simple, straight forward, click less, do more, extensible, blah blah
<darkmatter> I'm not sure they'll be able to pull it off with an amiga-ish approach, but anything is possible
<psyke83> hi
 * darkmatter scores a point against gnomes art team and files charges of IP infringement :o
<coz_> psyke83,  hello
<coz_> darkmatter,  hey guy
<darkmatter> heya coz_
<psyke83> hey
<psyke83> darkmatter: what IP infringement?
<darkmatter> psyke83: joke. I was just referencing a 'trying to make a point to art team members until blue in the face' debate(s) where the blatantly told me I was wrong regarding certain metaphors, and now a year later they are switching to the same icon metaphors in git
<coz_> darkmatter,  typical lol
<darkmatter> I win, they fail, and the probably dun remember me originally suggesting them *shrug*
<psyke83> ah, I misread that as "gnome-art", (as in, the site gnome-art.org)
<coz_> darkmatter,  arguing with gnome devs or art team has always been useless  from my experience :)
<darkmatter> coz_: lol. yea
<coz_> making mere suggestions to them often ends up as an argument or being banned :)
<darkmatter> coz_: especially when they brush of everything you say and then use the idea(s) anyway and take sole credit for them. it's awesome! </sarcasm>
<coz_> darkmatter,  for sure....
<coz_> darkmatter,  I stopped arguing with them a few years ago
<coz_> darkmatter,  when I realized it wasnt me it was them I stopped
<darkmatter> coz_: and people tell me I'm rude and insulting for calling gnome devs and art people narcissistic wannabes. yeah...
<coz_> darkmatter,  oh!! that was putting it midly :)
<coz_> darkmatter,  mildly
<darkmatter> hehe
<darkmatter> coz_: maybe it's rude and insulting because the truth hurts? :O
<darkmatter> *revelation*
<coz_> darkmatter,   I dont think it was rude to say that stuff...they are that and more at times....albeit  very bright in what they can accomplish
<coz_> personalities sometimes negate the work being done
<coz_> darkmatter,  now what I do is sit here...swing my arms in anger at them , but dont type a single word :)
<darkmatter> coz_: I know. just being a smart ass, since that general statement earned me a 'staining the walls with my shit' (I believe that's the direct quote) comment yesterday
<coz_> darkmatter,  lol  you're joking?  they said that ? LOL
<vish> darkmatter: which icon[s] ?
<darkmatter> coz_: nah. it was said in this channel early yesterday, because someone linked a 'profound' observation (and a broken one two. yet more money wasted sponsoring hackfests) from a gnome dudes blog, and I brushed it off as a been there, failed at that (regarding the methodology) and brought up the widespread attitude in gnome (and other parts of floss) that prevent any level of meaningful co-operation
<coz_> darkmatter,  said here??? wow that's surprising
<darkmatter> vish: I'll have to look though the status and the git logs. but most recent one is from just a while ago, they're dropping the binoculars from the find-replace and search metaphors
<vish> ah , yeah those find icons looked weird
<darkmatter> coz_: nothing surprises me. everyone has an opinion and many vehemently defend said opinions
<darkmatter> vish: other changes I remember being told were 'wrongful' when I tried suggesting them initially. I'm just to lazy to look them up :P
<coz_> darkmatter,  well making suggestions to gnome art is never going to ge
<darkmatter> vish: no biggy. but I count that as points scored in my favor! :P
<coz_> get you  listed as contributor
<darkmatter> coz_: I know, and I'll never contribute because I can't stand the pompousness of it
 * vish remembers darkmatter only a few days/months ago , being happy that one of the gnome devs liked his theme changes ;p 
<coz_> ah oh ^^ :)
<darkmatter> vish: nah. that was jimmac praising my opensuse theme changes. I'm referencing g-i-t currently :P
<vish> darkmatter: so much for taste , eh ?  if they like it they are good else not?  ;p   i'd say just stick to they suck and accept your theme was bad too ;p
 * vish j/k
<darkmatter> vish: the themes a different fish. and I never said 'they didn't like the icon suggestions'. I said they said 'nooo... you're wrong!!!' to the metaphor changes and used them anyway (be it a year later). it's more me laughing at the silliness of it all
<vish> darkmatter: yeah , it happens you are light yrs ahead of all of us :D
<darkmatter> speaking of themes. I should finish up work on that this weekend, see if I can get the changes accepted
<darkmatter> vish: nah. I'm not lightyears ahead. I just don't ignore the obvious :P
<darkmatter> well, maybe some of my stuff is 'lightyears ahead', but I doubt it. I just reverse engineer the way people work and attempt to apply it to interaction design
<darkmatter> so I basically do things the reverse of the contemporary methodology. and it works (well, it's more involved than that, but you get the picture)
<thorwil> some guy is trying to bring some structure into ubuntu-marketing. not the first attempt
<thorwil> interestingly, he thinks artwork should be part of it. http://i49.tinypic.com/2mmbsz8.jpg
<knome> thorwil, if you pick it up skeptically, it won't work ;]
<thorwil> knome: i pick up everything skeptically. somehow a few things survive that
<Equiet> Who's that guy?
<knome> thorwil, ;]
<thorwil> Equiet: John Vilsack
<thorwil> i actually think he makes some good points, but this total disconnect between marketing and artwork has been bothering me
<thorwil> i'd wish it wasn't "artwork", but rather "design". there'd be no marketing, that's up to Canonical
<thorwil> but i guess people wouldn't be happy with "evangelism" or "cheer-leading"
 * knome cheers thorwil 
<knome> bbl
<thorwil> hmm, promotion, proselytizing, brainwashing, indoctrination, crusading ain't good terms, either
<thorwil> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MarketingTeam/Meetings/Minutes/2009-11-12/UCMT_Restructure-Proposal
 * thorwil -> dinner
 * thorwil scrolls through the amazing backlog since he left
<knome> :P
<thorwil> knome: i liked your cheering more ;p
<knome> hehe
<troy_s> thorwil: Greets.
<thorwil> hi troy_s
<troy_s> thorwil: How goes it?
<thorwil> troy_s: funny things happen that i will only be able to explain later on :)
<troy_s> thorwil: Uh... like?
<thorwil> later ;)
<thorwil> troy_s: meanwhile, you might be interested in https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-manual/Artwork?action=AttachFile
<troy_s> thorwil: Alright. How about a general 'realm' clue? No idea what your 'things' are related to.
<thorwil> troy_s: the first 4 are testing free/open-source fonts
<thorwil> troy_s: there's at least on typographic mistake in all examples and a questionable categorization in there
<troy_s> thorwil: Looking now... just dling
<thorwil> troy_s: of course i only left those issues in them for you to find ;)
<troy_s> thorwil: Pretty sure I wont.
<knome> yeah, you have to make sure people are awake.
<knome> :P
<thorwil> seriously, these might be handy if you need to make a similar choice
<troy_s> thorwil: What is up with the cranky pixelated pdf?
<thorwil> fonts not in there disqualified themselves with unacce ptable keming
<troy_s> thorwil: Hrm. Did you test on various levels of smoothing?
<troy_s> thorwil: I know beyond a shadow of a doubt that 'slight' for example tends to yield different kerning than none and heavy.
<thorwil> troy_s: evince may take a while until it renders the current view in actual resolution
<troy_s> thorwil: It's the title one :)
<troy_s> thorwil: Title test... seems to not be anti-aliasing or something odd.
<thorwil> troy_s: oh, that's an issue with the inkscape version in Karmic
<thorwil> it fucks up the outlines in some cases
<troy_s> thorwil: It poops out PDFs with anti-aliasing botched?
<thorwil> though that shouldn't have slipped my attention
<troy_s> thorwil: Anyways, the numero uno big wtf is how absolutely craptastic the Ubuntu uh... what do you call it... uh... font?
<thorwil> troy_s: only for some fonts in some cases. that inkscape 0.47pre-something. the actual inkscape release does not have that issue
<troy_s> thorwil: How has the response been? What do you feel about the tests?
<thorwil> troy_s: the title test had only one response. agreeing with me that the font-logo-type combination is not the way to go
<troy_s> thorwil: Would have been nice to see the labels for family in the tests.
<troy_s> thorwil: Well yes, because the fricking official word font crap is absolutely crap. It is barely acceptable alone and small.
<troy_s> lol
<thorwil> troy_s: the very last words of each example are the font names
<troy_s> thorwil: Ah clever.
<thorwil> troy_s: i wanted to avoid a bias because of some of the fonts being well known
<troy_s> thorwil: I _believe_ norasi is actually free serif plus glyph coverage. I originally thought it had a different set of kerning tables though... can't remember.
<troy_s> thorwil: Good on you.
<troy_s> thorwil: Also clever
<thorwil> ty
<troy_s> thorwil: So has there been any preference?
<troy_s> thorwil: The bold weights are pretty nasty there. Are there titlecases for each set?
<troy_s> thorwil: It would be nice to see a reduced titlecase or at the very least, nerf the pointsize on the bold text. It has a helluva lot of gravity at the same point size. (So much so that my knee jerk reaction is to nuke it.)
<thorwil> troy_s: yes. i talked through it with Kevin, who takes care of all the latex stuff. with one excpetion, nobody else had input on font selection
<troy_s> thorwil: What did Kevin say?
<thorwil> troy_s: we sieved the fonts down to Biolinum and Libertine
<troy_s> thorwil: Libertine feels pretty damn sparse. Liberation is rigid as fsck.
<troy_s> thorwil: Really?
<thorwil> Charis SIL and Gillius were the last to fall
<troy_s> thorwil: What were your choices?
<thorwil> troy_s: that are my choices
<troy_s> thorwil: Erm... reasoning I meant :)
<troy_s> thorwil: How did you get Bringhurst's text into it? lol.
<troy_s> thorwil: Ah I see the link.
<thorwil> troy_s: one of the best kernings / evenness, nice character shapes. a bit light, but the alternatives seemed to say "book" a bit much
<troy_s> thorwil: Libertine (assuming the odd density issue is solved)
<troy_s> thorwil: Where is biolinum?
<thorwil> top row, sans
<troy_s> thorwil: Oh ... I skipped the sans. Looks like crap all around.
<troy_s> thorwil: And for vast expanses of text, it is hard to argue with a serif.
<thorwil> all fonts in top row support Cyrillic. glyph coverage was also an aspect
<troy_s> thorwil: That said, it's a good pick out of the sans.
<thorwil> troy_s: we use the serif for body text and sans for margin notes and headlines
<thorwil> Biolinum and Libertine are from the same source an build a good pair
<troy_s> thorwil: Hrm... margin notes sounds good. Headlines though? Seems like a strange pairing to go with a sans and a serif for body. How do those two pair?
<troy_s> thorwil: No arguments that they are pretty well crafted (especially noticeable how some of them look like absolute craptastic.)
<troy_s> thorwil: Well it all looks extremely positive from here. I'd say a huge plus one over what I have seen.
<troy_s> thorwil: And by huge, I mean vast. What are your thoughts on the title cover sample?
<troy_s> thorwil: (Manual cover 2010)
<troy_s> thorwil: ?
<thorwil> serifs may seem a bit conservative. pairing one with a sans lightens that up.
<thorwil> one moment, please
<troy_s> thorwil: I don't know if I'd go so far to say 'conservative'. Those serifs have a very real impact on left to righting obviously.
<thorwil> troy_s: https://lists.launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual/msg00755.html
<thorwil> troy_s: serifs do more for longer text and have of a message in that case
<thorwil> a headline with serifs is more of a statement.
<thorwil> but maybe i have a bias due to starting DTP with adverts where Helvetica was the default :)
<thorwil> the say nothing, say nothing wrong font, admittedly
<troy_s> thorwil: /me keeps mum on Helvetica.
<thorwil> mum?
<thorwil> ah, keeping shut
<troy_s> thorwil: Hrm... what's the big announcement out of Canonical on uh 'branding'[sic. Use the right term. Branding is something you do to a cow. Christ.]
<thorwil> troy_s: we will see
<troy_s> thorwil: Cover - watch that right gutter. You trim pretty close to it there. And your left alignment has that 'here nor there' quality it seems. It isn't quite starting edge to edge and it isn't a clear aesthetic choice to align it somewhere in the interior it seems.
<troy_s> thorwil: Agree?
<troy_s> thorwil: (Might have wads to do with the CoF pulling the gravity on that whole line left quite a chunk.
<thorwil> troy_s: actually it is meant to align with margins used internally. a bit narrow, yes
<troy_s> thorwil: The lower band watermark (interesting deconstruction - but be wary of Charlie Brown) has an almost odd vertical CoG position - it's pretty low?
<troy_s> thorwil: Is the title bold?
<troy_s> It is refreshing to see that nasty wordmark not present.
<thorwil> troy_s: the band does s it a bit low and i got a remark on that already
<troy_s> thorwil: Lol. I'm sure you got a lot of remarks on a lot of things.
<troy_s> thorwil: There is no shortage of remarks, is there?
<troy_s> lol
<thorwil> troy_s: not in this case
<thorwil> troy_s: 2 rather short replies
<troy_s> thorwil: It is always a matter of who the hell you are going to give a rat's ass about.
<thorwil> troy_s: i'm not sure, could be some people don't bother anymore after the leader accepted most of my arguments to inform his decisions
<troy_s> thorwil: How is everyone else on the team doing? Given up or???
<thorwil> troy_s: i also was a bit brutal with explaining what should and shouldn't be happening :)
<thorwil> troy_s: working with Kevin is great, but he stays calm about the title page. vish is busy otherwise. wolter doesn't respond
<troy_s> thorwil: Kevin seems to have his bits together. Is he thinking the cover has stunk thus far?
<thorwil> troy_s: no. i really don't know what he thinks of it
<thorwil> troy_s: what i do know is that he knows, even read Tschichold
<troy_s> thorwil: Martin's comment on the face selection are way off. He really doesn't have a clue.
<troy_s> thorwil: Wow. Well that bodes extremely well.
<thorwil> troy_s: i had several points of what i wanted to change internally and almost always he said he was planning to do that already :)
<troy_s> thorwil: As I said, it really would be not a bad thing to simply follow verbatim those two guys.
<troy_s> thorwil: No need to be creative in typesetting when there isn't someone with a significant resume to bring something new to the table.
<troy_s> thorwil: But I bet Kevin probably says the same thing.
<troy_s> thorwil: Who is Martin out of curiosity and why is he compelled to make a comment on something that he is clearly in the dark on?
<thorwil> troy_s: we just apply a bunch of patterns as seen before, internally, yes
<troy_s> thorwil: Do Bringhurst proud.
<troy_s> thorwil: At the point size of that title sample, do you think BOLD is necessary? It grabs a pretty huge chunk of real-estate without bolded too.
<thorwil> troy_s: he never got my attention elsewhere. i decided to let his input stand uncommented. no bad intentions, no bad feelings
<thorwil> troy_s: regular seemed just a little bit too shy. i'll try that again when i get back to this
<troy_s> thorwil: I only ask because it (1) Has a pretty massive gravity (that may shift if you adjust and scale for gutter etc.) (2) Doesn't seem as well designed as the standard Roman.
<troy_s> thorwil: At least you can make good hay with Kevin on the text body copy. Hopefully the interior ends up unlike the hodge podge nightmares seen all over Libreville.
<thorwil> screenshots are a bit worrisome, but otherwise i'm confident
<troy_s> thorwil: Just keep the six year old's drawing of the Lynx off the cover and you probably get better by an order of a magnitude on subtraction alone.
<thorwil> lol
<thorwil> snippet from an email entirely unrelated: "Design is what happens once you know what you are trying to say."
<thorwil> troy_s: thanks for the feedback. gotta go, cya
<Lcawte> hello, I'm interested in doing some artwork kinda stuff for ubuntu
#ubuntu-artwork 2010-02-25
<darkmatter> http://stud.mdb.ku.dk/ged/fluffy_destroyer.jpg
<thorwil> http://www.peppertop.com/greys/svg/Ubuntufied_Flying_Object.svg
<zniavre> good afternoon
<zniavre> if ever gnome3 come in ubuntu could we uninstall it to use gnome as gnome2.9 ?
<sanderqd> zniavre: i don't think that has been decided as gnome3 doesn't exist yet, but i assume that people will keep maintaining the gnome 2 UI.
<zniavre> sanderqd,  thank you to answer
<zniavre> cause i tried it and i feel lost
<sanderqd> don't panic, the new shell isn't finished yet at all
<zniavre> :o)
<vish> zniavre: gnome3 will always have the option to use legacy panel and stuff
 * vish tries to find link
<sanderqd> always?
<vish> err.. always in the sense what is planned for gnome3.0 ;)
<vish> gnome-shell wont work for everyone , i forgot what/where is was mentioned , but users will have the option to revert to the panel
<darkmatter> vish: random accusations of any 'planning' in 'gnome3' serve noone :P
<darkmatter> vish: and they shouldn't call it gnome3. they should call it 'iFLOSS' xD
 * vish  ducks  as darkmatter flings FUD at gnome3 ;p
<darkmatter> vish: what FUD? seriously. show me a direction other than an oversized JS cellphone ui and you get a cookie. it's still a fractured pile of gnome 2.x bit's conveniently labeled as '3' ;p
<vish> darkmatter: have you been reading seth's blog? rather hype?
<vish> or mizmo's too , they seem to be planning something, but who knows ;)
<darkmatter> I don't read hype. it's overrated. I judge by current state/final state/whatever state as things progress. thus far I'm far from impressed :)
<vish> sanderqd: zniavre: yay , found it > http://live.gnome.org/GNOME3Myths#GNOME_Panel
<vish> darkmatter: i'm yet you know which/what has truly impressed you ;) apart from > http://stud.mdb.ku.dk/ged/fluffy_destroyer.jpg
<zniavre> The only component that requires 3D or graphics acceleration is GNOME Shell and to be fair can perform very well in any computer from the last 4 years.  >mine must hav 8y/o ...
<vish> yet to know*
<zniavre> vish,  thank you
<vish> np..
<darkmatter> vish: fluffy_destroyer impresses because he can lick your face and tear your eyes out of their sockets at the same time. that's godlike!
<vish> darkmatter: that dog is really scary and adorable at the same time ;)
<darkmatter> vish: yes. he's my new mascot! let us join forces and create Fluffy Linux!
<vish> ;)  i think fluffy Linux is already taken ,
 * vish googles
<Equiet> Don't you know if there is something new with http://mairin.wordpress.com/2010/02/13/random-idea-for-design-collaboration-tool/ ?
<vish> Equiet: new as is? when the work for setting up will start?
<Equiet> vish: Actually if it's being developed or it is planned to being developed.
<vish> Equiet: i doubt it would start to be developed any time soon... you could link your mockup in the blog  :)
<vish> if you havent yet ;)
<thorwil> Equiet: you'd have to ask mizmo if she took up on that offer of having it implemented in ruby on rails by a new developer who needs training
<Equiet> W8, she?
<thorwil> Equiet: or ask iainfarrell and kwwii if anything came out of them discussing it
<thorwil> W8?
<Equiet> Nevermind
<Equiet> .
 * thorwil neverminds a lot
<Equiet> Ok, going to design the bottom half.
<thorwil> elky: i guess you haven't written a specification before starting to work on mockups?
<thorwil> sorry, Equiet
<Equiet> No.
<Equiet> I'm just guessing what functionality it could contain.
<thorwil> that's a reasonable approach to get an idea about it
<thorwil> but not to really define both the big picture and all the details
<zniavre_> how can i solved the memenu font color please ? http://dl.dropbox.com/u/187396/Capture.png
<troy_s> zniavre_: Try the gtkrc for input boxes. I don't know if they expose a class for you to key on.
<zniavre_> ok try that also
<zniavre_> thant's strange i can modify almost everything inside this entry box except font color [NORMAL]
<zniavre_> that*
<zniavre_> http://dl.dropbox.com/u/187396/Capture.png
<zniavre_> must be green but it's black
#ubuntu-artwork 2010-02-26
<thorwil> good morning!
 * thorwil falls asleep, dies and rots while waiting for the wiki to load
<knome> >__<
#ubuntu-artwork 2010-02-27
 * darkmatter pokes vish
<darkmatter> vish: g-i-t is look much better as of today. but still needs work
<darkmatter> they should get rid of the super saturated blue in system-search, edit-find, and edit-find-replace in g-i-t. move the loop to a silvery color to look better with the rest of the icons
<darkmatter> http://www.swiftboot.com/?p=213
<zniavre> ho we can't change the metacity layout of homosapiens theme ?
<zniavre> http://dl.dropbox.com/u/187396/homosapiens.png
<zacbarton> zniavre: you can change the button laytout via http://www.zacbarton.com/homosapien/customizer/
#ubuntu-artwork 2010-02-28
<zniavre> i do not understand really how works new-tooltip-style , it does not follow murrine rules
<zniavre> http://dl.dropbox.com/u/187396/tooltipstyle.png
#ubuntu-artwork 2011-02-21
<coz_> hey guys
<highvoltage> hey coz_
<coz_> highvoltage,  hey guy
<coz_> awful quiet here
<coz_> vish,  have any of my comments on the mailing list been... too much or offensive to anyone?
<coz_> ok I am going to go play 0AD  once its downloaded ... see what happens :)
<coz_> hey guys
<thorwil> morning!
<coz_> thorwil,  hey guy
<coz_> ok so what is going on with j_baer now?
<coz_> sorry ,, natty froze, had to restart x
<coz_> guys I need to know if any of you feel I was "out of line"  with the posts on the mailing lists
<coz_> oo should I take "silence" as a yes :(
<thorwil> oh man
<vish> cozziemoto: hey!
<vish> hmm, actually i was think he was too soft on john!
<thorwil> we all have been
<cozziemoto> oh hey guys
<cozziemoto> vish,  too soft?
<vish> cozziemoto: yup..
<cozziemoto> mm and here I thought maybe i over stepped my bounds
<vish> cozziemoto: nah, you're not even close ;)
<cozziemoto> well I feel better now :)
<cozziemoto> apparenlty he isnt responding to any of them
<cozziemoto> he states on one of those flickr sites that he is  ( a group admin )  is he?
<vish> cozziemoto: he is group admin for his groups
<cozziemoto> vish,  oh ok understood
<cozziemoto> very misleading
<cozziemoto> well guys it is 4:50am here...  I am going to bed :)   night all
<cozziemoto> and thanks...
<coz_> oh boy ... I was hoping for some explanation but the last entry  " I grow weary of this and my mail box is filled."  has turned my desire for rectification and team work into ... "What an arrogant doof"
<coz_> sorry guys,,, I am generally not critical of people who have such a strong desire to be involved
<coz_> by the way   "Hey guys"   :)
#ubuntu-artwork 2011-02-22
<thorwil> good morning!
<thorwil> chaotic: maybe you will understand what a colleague chose not to. please have a look:  https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu-website/+bug/672112
<ubot2> Launchpad bug 672112 in ubuntu-website-content "Dividers in header are inconsistent" [Undecided,New]
<chaotic> thorwil: thanks for pointing that out - I have notified the web team and they say they'll look into it
<thorwil> chaotic: np. my eye for detail has to be good for something other than driving myself crazy :)
<coz_> hey guys
<thorwil> hi coz_
<coz_> thorwil,  hey guy
<chaotic> thorwil: :)
<coz_> i have been reading what is available on the mailing list... still not clear on where things stand with baer and the group as a whole
<vish> coz_: if he does not reply to questions,what can one do?
<coz_> vish,  yeah  that is exactly what has been hitting me in the back of the head
<vish> sheer stupidity.. :/
<coz_> vish,  but not just that
<coz_> vish,  I joined th is group years ago...darkmatter and probably troys  can remember how long , just after ubuntu came out i believe
<vish> coz_: that is the issue thorwil . doctormo and I have.. he never gives a reply to questions raised.. thats his pattern
<coz_> vish,   this is  deja vu in a way
<coz_> vish,  I can remember years ago pulling back from the group for various reasons
<thorwil> coz_: there are only 2 good options regarding dealing with John: ignore (made easier by leaving the list), or kick out. while him subscribing to the list under another name can't be ruled out, at least his ubuntu membership could be revoked
<coz_> thorwil,  well kicking or banning is just foing to feed whatever reasons he had in the first place
<thorwil> foing to feed?
<vish> coz_: so beyond the questions one can ask, it is not clear if he understands and corrects himself or he is just being adamant
<coz_> thorwil,  it will  just feed into his view that he was right in the first place
<coz_> I just dont understand it  to be honest
<thorwil> i don't even want to care if he is a regrettably sophisticated troll or benevolent-but-brainfucked
<vish> coz_: popey has been silently following this "issue" , he said that it is not necessary that CC is brought in this matter,  team leadership can kick him out.. Or we can ask CC for help regarding this
<coz_> somehow it has to related to the "dis organization"  haunting the group
<thorwil> buwhaha, *team leadership*
<vish> hehe!
<coz_> indeed
<coz_> but a very old issue
 * vish re-elects thorwil to be a leader or an interim one ;p
<vish> or elects even.. ;)
<thorwil> i can do something worthwhile *or* play team leader here ... guess what i'll do
 * thorwil -> food
<coz_> my belief is that had t his group been well organized from the get go ,,, and no offense to those on the desing team... we would be in the position the design team is in now
<vish> bah, i guess , best is that we shut down the team!
<coz_> no
<vish> no one needs to worry about anything :s
<vish> heh, i dint expect saleel's reply to be straight to the point though..
<coz_> vish,  well of course I am not the one to finalize a decision like that  and I wouldnt  even if I were
<vish> he dint want to even get involved in this and he clearly pointed out john has not given a single reasons for that group to exist
<coz_>  I must have missed his reply
<vish> again john had no reply..
<coz_> yes I see
<coz_> Last time I asked this question I believe troy was in charge... what is the goal of this group?  how much influence does it weild.. and what is in the works for improving its solidity?
<vish> there really is no point for this group to actually exist
<coz_> vish,  oh wonderful
<coz_> vish,  so we leave things up to the "desing team"  again no o ffense,,, but I know of a few poeple here who are quite a bit more talented
<vish> so what if people are talented ;)
<coz_> vish,  mmm  are you playing devil's advocate with me? :)
<vish> coz_: Ubuntu artwork is done by the design team, they are running the contests, community can just participate in these contests.. there is no real need for the "team"
<coz_> vish,   what artwork was done by the desing team
<coz_> vish,  the themes?
<vish> what isnt?
<vish> themes, wallpaper
<coz_> vish,  wallpaper  has sucked since dapper
<vish> what else is there to do?
<coz_> and before
<vish> coz_: suck factor is not an issue, thats upto mark and his team.. not really an issue
<vish> for the team
<vish> even if an amazing wallpaper is done by someone, how is it going to get into the distro?
<coz_> vish,  but mark is a developer in theory... he has absolutely no ability to deal with graphics
<coz_> no offense to developers here
<coz_> vish,  yes I realize that
<vish> coz_: right, but _he_ doesnt do the wallpapers, he has the design team doing it/
<coz_> vish,  well him, or them  still no ability
<vish> heh, well that again not something this team can fix
<coz_> I understand
<coz_> I suppose I am going through the same internal struggles I  had years ago here  after this latest issue
<vish> his nonsense has to stop, if it means shutting down the team to prevent him then so be it..
<coz_>  eeww
<coz_> vish,  I dont like that idea but  I am not the one to decide
<coz_> vish,  although that leave things opened for other "admins"  to start flickr groups :)
<vish> yea..
<coz_> waiste of time
<vish> at one point i was entertaining the hope that someone can salvage the team, but i can see no one willing to take the leadership..
<vish> and if john wants to be leader.. /me will auto-quit ;)
<coz_> vish,   leadership needs clout behind it which canonical will not give
<vish> coz_: canonical has no role in this, their clout is not needed..
<coz_> vish,   oh?
<coz_> well maybe change the name from #ubuntu-artwork  to  #art-is -fun
<vish> coz_: i think doctormo (if he is willing) can lead the team, but then no one else is right for that position
<vish> i'v asked troy, thorwil , but they have just grown tooo old ;p
<coz_> vish,  I wouldnt expect troy at all ,, I know what he has been t hrough
<vish> coz_: thats not a valid argument ;)
<vish> coz_: a lot has changed, not everyone from the old team still exists.. troy has his ideals too.. he wants to have his work influence Ubuntu.. which is not possible
<coz_> vish,  I understand his perspective... so then.. what "is" the point of #ubuntu-artwork?
<vish> coz_: exactly! ;)
<vish> ..dissolve â¦
<coz_> vish,  just rename the channel to   #art-is-fun  ,,, that would please the developers
<vish> yea, that could do
<coz_> yikes
<coz_> vish,  so in essence  #ubuntu-artwork is doing what john has been doing?
<vish> coz_: hmm?
<vish> coz_: what john wants is a piece of a pie that is not available
<coz_> vish,  well...if t his group is not gearing up to gain some control over ubuntu content.. then isnt the name msileading
<coz_> misleading
<vish> coz_: this team is older than the design team
<coz_> vish,  exactly
<vish> coz_: so when it was formed it had a reason to exist, but not anymore
<coz_> vish,  what was that reason?
<vish> coz_: long back this team had some role in the themes/wallpaper
<coz_> vish,  right until shuttleworth cut it off
<coz_> for some erroneous reason
<vish> coz_: we could rather just be a group that has a collection of artists interested in helping FOSS/Ubuntu distros â¦ artists can showcase a portfolio and say they are interested in helping FOSS
<vish> and teams can choose the artist whose work they like
<coz_> vish,  mmm  perhaps
<coz_> vish,  I doubt I would be interested much in that
<vish> and instead of these contest for the edubuntu/xubuntu, the team can just work with the artist they like..
<coz_> vish,  I am aware that the design team now makes the decision
<vish> the last bit of community design in Ubuntu is Humanity.. and that would end when the new icon theme is announced..
<vish> and then i would have no reason to be here either ;)
<coz_> vish,  truly sad.. for real... I still had hopes for the fight to gain control over content
<vish> IMO, not gonna happen.. never
<coz_> vish,  that unfortunate  in reality...
<coz_> ok I announce that i will be "admin"  of #art-is-fun  maybe at some point down the road when real art starts disgusting me lol
<vish> ;p
<coz_> ok then I will delete my flickr account ...there is no real need for it now
<vish> coz_: hmm, the illustrations can just use community submissions
<vish> coz_: its just that there is no need for a 'team' to do that ;)
<coz_> vish,  well first ,,they need to correctly define "illustrations"   what I have seen is not illustration
<coz_> nor is it fine art
<vish> :)
<coz_> damn and i was all excited about finally figuring out flickr  lol
<coz_> well it wont take long to delet 25 things :)
<coz_> ok I will stay on the ubuntu artwork group until this "contest" is finised....somehow reminds me of  "America's got talent"
<coz_> well guys it is now nearing 7AM here,,, no sleep ,, pensive,,,thinking about this group,,, its future,,, leadershipt etc etc
<coz_> so off to bed ,,, I hope you are all here tomorrow
<thorwil> vish: i have just grown to wanting more out of each bit of attention and effort that i spend
<vish> thorwil: yup, thats what i meant by "grown old" ;)
<thorwil> vish: heh, do you plan to grow old, too, then? ;)
<vish> thorwil: well, you leave me no choice now ;)
<coz_> hey guys
<vish> coz_: haha! you run auto-join-HI scripts ;p
<coz_> vish,  no just copy paste  real fast lol
<vish> ;)
<coz_> ok I have un-joined all groups on flickr
<vish> coz_: why? silent protest eh? ;p
<coz_> vish,  no... after our conversation last night,, I thought about it all...slept on it...then thought about it more this morning... I join this group years ago with the intent and hope of influencing Ubuntu content,,  I am educated in fine art..I wanted to share and influience the look and feel of Ubuntu
<coz_> vish,  without proper leadership ,,, that';s not going to happen,,, and the flickr "contest" is just like america's got talent  which is ludicrous
<vish> coz_: well, i dont think getting a leader will improve it either..
<vish> coz_: but yea, i get your point.. :)
<vish> coz_: did you see my last mail?
<coz_> vish,  I think it would but even more important is  the people who can produce work that is wanted by ubuibuntu...or irresistable to them
<coz_> vish,  no didnt look at mail yet  will do so now
<vish> i tried to make it very clear that community team has no part in organizing art for Ubuntu
<coz_> vish,  yes I tried that with my comments to john  which obviously made no impact
<coz_> vish,  nicely done
<coz_> although I am on the cairo dock team... mainly graphics..and heavily involved in compiz, again graphics.. making and maintaining icons for ccsm or themes for cairo dock are not exavtly as satisfiying as would be be being part of the decision making process  for an OS... both of those projects are important to me,  and involvement with them somewhat rewarding... but my skills at  art,, are not satisfied,  there,  so I am not sure where I stan
<coz_> d at this point..
<vish> coz_: i think working with the sister distros is best thing.. dont worry about the size of users
<coz_> vish,  well... maybe...in all honesty,, I came to ubuntu from BeOs  which I would still be using if it had current java packages,,,, when I saw the potential with Ubuntu,, I felt this is more than a worthwhile project to get involved with,,, I didnt and still do not want to code and maintain that code,, I dont have time,,
<vish> coz_: nah, not coding.. i meant designing
<coz_> vish,  right,,, but  it was Ubuntu that had and still has the potentials that attracted me to it
<vish> coz_: those have better opportunity for showcasing talents
<vish> OOObuntooo :)
<coz_> vish,  well  perhaps... but none have the "pull of interest"  that ubuntu has for me
<coz_> I never got heavily involved here  for the reason that there can be influencing Ubuntu,,, it didnt seem practical to show and skills leadership or otherwise,, since it would have no impact... it was troy that kept nagging me to show more work,, which finally  manifested in starting that flickr account,, ,of course it was a few years of nagging  by troy lol
<coz_> rather  "cant influence ubuntu"
<vish> lol!
<vish> we'll rename him "troy the nagger" ;p
<coz_> and then,,, after years of semi involvement... the result is an "official design team"
<coz_> quite depressing  considering that "actual" talent that lies hidden within this group
<vish> coz_: Mark himself mentioned he never found a way to use this group ;)
<thorwil> yeah, he once complained about everyone wanting their way or none at all
<coz_> vish,  he also said he couldnt find a way to communicate with its members which is just bull..since he finds numerous ways to keep in contact with developers
<vish> haha!
<coz_> it is still as depressing as it was a few years ago.. and again,,, even more depressing that there is a "design team"
<coz_> however,,, I am more than willing to work along with that team... in any project,,, but is there even that possibility?
<vish> coz_: which team? the Canonical design team?
<coz_> yes
<vish> hmm..
<coz_> vish,  seems to me..that the canonical design team should be pulling in  different members of this group to work on projects,,
<coz_> vish,  I would consider that appropriate leadership of sorts
<vish> well, there is a difference in how Ubuntu/Canonical teams work together. and how that can not work for art
<coz_> oh?
<vish> if you take other desktop teams.. Canonical team has a set of packages they need to fix and the Canonical desktop team mostly works on it and anyone from community can work along with them
<vish> so the task can be split into mini-tasks
<vish> and each person can do his interested part, irrespective of being canonical or Ubuntu
<vish> and if anything goes wrong in one step, there can always be an update
<vish> but we cant split a wallpaper into miniwallpapers , and we cant fix it with updates :D
<coz_> vish,  well not just wallpaper,,, themes  overall appearance
<vish> right, similar for themes
<vish> they have hired Cimi
<coz_> I see
<vish> coz_: only one person has to do one wallpaper.. and design team has an employed person on the task.. so one way would be to get that guy fired ;p
 * vish hides
<coz_> well I suppose I could work on an entire system theme,,, icons ,, images,,, metacity/gtk and offer it on gnome-look or something
<vish> right, that works
<vish> coz_: you really should not listen to what thorwil or I say.. you seem to have gotten pretty depressed :)
<coz_> :)
<vish> both thorwil and I are evil ;p
<coz_> vish,  no more than usual here :)
<coz_> vish,  yes I forgot about your evilness
<coz_> :)
<thorwil> relevations on the path to enlightenment can seem painfull at first
<coz_> this is true
<thorwil> but once through, you will experience new found freedom
<coz_> revelations  you meant ...yes?
<thorwil> dang, yes
<thorwil> thank you for this collection of my arrow!
<coz_> :)
<vish> lol!
<coz_> I have to admit,, I have always enjoyed talking with the people who dont just hang out here :)
<coz_> where the heck is darkmatter?  I hope he is doing ok
<vish> he'd be snorting glue ;p
<coz_> :)
<vish> nowadays he hangs out/talks more in #elementary
<coz_> he has hung in there for the past 5 or 6 years ,,, but long absences  concern me
<coz_> oh yes he does like elementary
<coz_> I gave up on that as well...way to mac like for me
<coz_> I think the misnomer   " ubuntu  community oriented  open source"  although true has attracted artists hoping to influence the releases on some level, must be clearly  defined as  "Not in terms of graphics" which is essentially "closed"  to community
 * vish kicks darkmatter !!! dude come cheer-up coz_ !!
<coz_> lol
<coz_> vish,  I dont know about that ,,, he and I think closely alike :)
<vish> ;)
<coz_> troy the same...although troy needs to ELABORATE  :)
<darkmatter> lol
<coz_> darkmatter,  hey guy :)
<darkmatter> heya coz_
 * darkmatter slaps vish with a buffalo wing
<coz_> darkmatter,  are you hanging out in that mac  we like to look like  channel ?
<vish> yummy!
<coz_> let me check it out today
<darkmatter> coz_: I hang out in _every_ channel :P
<coz_> darkmatter,  yes  you do :)
<coz_> vish,  I believe once darkmatter   suggested also doing work for other distributions.. I suppose I could think  about it... later... at some point... maybe :)
<darkmatter> coz_: I've made a _major_ design decision regarding my baby(s). now to actually mock stuff up and post it somewhere. maybe I'll dump some crap out of my flickr and put it there
<coz_> darkmatter,  cool... look forward to seeing that :)
<darkmatter> coz_: super clean design (almost minimal to an extent. all the traditional eyesores are stripped out or 'hidden' (grabbers n separators in panes of an app, virtually no chrome, etc) and exceedingly themable compared to "normal" (gtk 3 should make that much easier to an extent)
<coz_> darkmatter,  ooo nice
<darkmatter> coz_: was already headed in that general direction, but I want to creat a visual elegance that actually _allows_ for pure focus on art in design (not just the gui and its interactions, but _art_ properly)
<coz_> darkmatter,  that I completely understand :)
<darkmatter> coz_: like, salvidore dali for a widget theme :P (well, not literally, but you get the idea)
<darkmatter> environment is art
<coz_> darkmatter,  ooo   :)  just saw a documentary about him
<darkmatter> coz_: :)
<darkmatter> dali is one of my greatest inspirations. teh idol if you will ;)
<coz_> darkmatter,  cool..not bad for inspiration :)
<coz_> darkmatter, decent documentary about him on Hulu
<darkmatter> coz_: I'll have to check it out later. bbiab though. gotta go get needle shoved in vein \o/
<coz_> okie dokie
<coz_> for the record,,, best still life painters... cezanne,, van gogh,, and manet..... best landscape painters...van gogh  and camille corot...cezanne landscapes suck :)... best figurative painters,,, odd nerdrum...manet,,, degas,, sargent... abstract is another matter
<coz_> best illustrators well,,, I dont keep up with illustrators
<coz_> from the paste maybe  NC  Wyeth
<coz_> past not paste
<coz_> the Wyeths live here in Pennsylvania,,, andrew wyeth  had put out a call for a student to mentor... I drove all over that area trying to find him...no luck ,, missed out ,,, damn it
<coz_> well I  have a few pieces to photograph,,, I need to eat  ,,,yummm... and assorted other t hings to take care of,,, be back later :)
#ubuntu-artwork 2011-02-23
<coz_> hey guys.. just how and when will people be notified about this "america's got wallpaper"  contest?
<thorwil> coz_: notified about what? the final selection? canonical design blog
<coz_> thorwil,  ah ok  so they are not going to contact the individuals they have selected?
<thorwil> coz_: maybe. iainfarrell knows
<coz_> ok
<coz_> just curious
<iainfarrell> coz_: are you referring to the selection process for Natty?
<coz_> iainfarrell,  yes
<iainfarrell> I've already contacted the people who were nominated last time and they're aware when they'll need to be ready to choose the best ones
<coz_> ok
<coz_> iainfarrell,  so I can leave the group then
<iainfarrell> coz_: any particular reason you're asking or are you just excited?
<iainfarrell> which group?
<coz_> iainfarrell,   ubuntu artwork  group
<coz_> wrong button :)
<vish> odd, the ubuntu wiki looks so different in chrome when compared to firefox
<darkmatter> lol. chrome
<vish> yea, chromium sucks ;p
<vish> eitherway i use Firefox ;)
<vish> FF4 is quite an improvement IMO..
<darkmatter> indeed. still has a lot of useless crap and "lolwut?" ui decisions, but overall is much improved
<vish>  and i dont have a top panel, so i knock out the window deco for FF4 and the tabs are at the top of the screen to the edge..
<vish> you know fitts..
<vish> (yea i said it ;p)
<darkmatter> you know that studies have shown half of fitts needs a fitts to the face? ;)
<vish> lmao!!
<AustinDanger> Hey guys, out of personal interest, I've been messing with the (apparently) stagnant DIY idea for Studio. Does anybody know if that's still the direction we're going?
<vish> AustinDanger: you mean Ubuntu studio?
<AustinDanger> Yeah
<vish> AustinDanger: you can ask doctormo or scottl about Ubuntu Studio
<vish> pretty sure no one else here knows about it
<AustinDanger> Okay, I sent responded to Scott's email a few days ago, but I haven't heard back.
<AustinDanger> responded*
<vish> AustinDanger: oh! ok, i spoke to scott a couple of days ago, afaik, he is still looking for help with the studio
<AustinDanger> Cool. I'm still going to work on this icon set, just because I like the idea, but I was wondering if I should be posting stuff for input/suggestions.
<vish> AustinDanger: scott hangs out in #ubuntu-community-team as   scott-work and ScottL
<vish> AustinDanger: incase you want to ping him directly..
<AustinDanger> Right, I'm not especially far on the icon set, so it isn't really urgent. But if I haven't heard from him in a few days, that's probably what I'll do.
<AustinDanger> Thanks!
<vish> yw..
<konaya__> Hi.
<konaya__> Who made the current Ubuntu log-in tune?
<konaya__> How is it licensed?
<konaya__> Who made the current Ubuntu log-in tune?
<cozziemoto> konaya__,  that one that been around for a while?
<cozziemoto> konaya__, I dont recall the creator of that
<cozziemoto> konaya__,  are you wanting to offer a new one or are you involved in the search for one put out by the design team?
<cozziemoto> I believe last october was the previous deadline for submitting new sounds for natty,.,, however I have not heard anything since then
<konaya__> cozziemoto, I'm just curious, really. And I wonder what license it's under. If it's open sourced, where's the sheet music, for example.
<konaya__> It would be sweet to be able to mod it a bit.
<cozziemoto> konaya__,  its either gpl or cc
<cozziemoto> konaya__,  either way its permitted to modify it
<cozziemoto> konaya__,  I did,,, and submitted my version of it
<konaya__> cozziemoto, yes, but if it's gpl, then the "source" needs to be made available, right?
<konaya__> I can only find the "compiled binary", that is, the sound file shipped with ubuntu.
<cozziemoto> konaya__,  yes ,, you should  state who the origianl author was  ifpossible
<konaya__> I wish I knew. I was hoping to find the author here to be honest.
<cozziemoto> konaya__,  if not possible you can probably reference it indirectly but saying it is the log in sound  etc
<cozziemoto> konaya__,  is this just a modification or was your creation inspired by it?
<konaya__> cozziemoto, there is no creation yet. I wish to modify it, but I can't do that without the source.
<cozziemoto> konaya__,  ah
<cozziemoto> mmm let me check hold on
<konaya__> Source in music terms would be sheet music or similar. So I just wondered if anyone knows where I could find it.
<cozziemoto> https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ubuntu-sounds
<konaya__> cozziemoto, thanks, but I already checked that. It only contains compiled sound files. No source.
<cozziemoto> mmm
<cozziemoto> konaya__,   I am at my other system and reinstalling on my main system,  if you are around in about an hour or so I probably could help find it better
<cozziemoto> this system is awkward for me :)
<konaya__> :)
<konaya__> I just might be. I'll try, although I might leave since I have to get up early tomorrow.
<cozziemoto> konaya__,  it should be ,, the source package ,, already on the system under /var somewhere
<konaya__> Actually, technically that package is incorrectly labeled as a source package since it doesn't contain the source :P
<cozziemoto> ooo
<konaya__> A source package for sounds would contain sheet music, or perhaps midi files and the appropriate soundfonts for generating sounds identical to the sounds shipped in the binary package. :P
<konaya__> http://musescore.com/node/856
<konaya__> That would be source AND binary for a song, as an example.
<konaya__> Or, technically, part of the source, since I couldn't be bothered to notate the drums.
<konaya__> http://musescore.com/node/935 <--- Better example
<cozziemoto> konaya__,  I dont know who here is actually on the design team and if they would have more information about this
<cozziemoto> I have to go reinstall on my other system...be back a bit later
<konaya__> Alright, have fun.
#ubuntu-artwork 2011-02-24
<troy_s> vish: Updates?
<vish> troy_s: hey.. i was going to propose an alternative way (for the artworkteam to exist) to all these contests and to rather move to an artist-portfolio kinda thing,
<troy_s> vish: Amen.
<vish> troy_s: so that instead of having contests or something, artists interested in helping Ubuntu or sister distros would just upload their work and the team that liked what they say , could just contact the artist and work with them .. but thorwil convinced me it would be a waste of time for the current group there ;)
<troy_s> vish: Been a ponderin' something like that as well really. Have been for a long time.
<vish> troy_s: well, right now, i see no hope for the team
<vish> troy_s: after thorwil quit, i dont see any art types who are still there..
<troy_s> vish: It would basically require a sort of standardized portfolio place. I'd think the benefits would be very significant. (1) You weed out those that have zip for portfolio / work. (2) It should be about the work first and foremost, and the inherent qualities / traits of the individual.
<vish> troy_s: or interested in putting work there..
<vish> troy_s: yup..
<vish> troy_s: the team needs someone to lead, and i dont think anyone(competent) is right now willing to ;)
<troy_s> vish: You will get the groove. I'd think there is much to be learnt from seeing things not working.
<troy_s> vish: It is certainly full of education.
<troy_s> vish: I'd also hope that it isn't just you and others that see it. Maybe it helps if more see it.
<vish> troy_s: currently the team over there does not get one main point, it is not possible to show your talent on the main Ubuntu distro.. if someone is interested in making it to Ubuntu, they first need to make their way through the sister distros..
<troy_s> vish: That, in turn, should be of a benefit to a community. Hell... how much useful information came up in that Libre Office thread regarding contests and how much of a failure they were from people on the inside?
<vish> yea..
<troy_s> vish: I'd think that Ubuntu or otherwise is a waste of time.
<vish> yep..
<troy_s> vish: It should be a cauldron of creativity. A culture. And that will take more thought and work than worrying about some half baked wallpaper or 22 pixel Tango mess.
<vish> troy_s: well, we cant fully blame the developers , they have been accustomed to contests and its what they've seen work successfully..   "successfully" as in some result or the other. not necessary how the result is ;)
<troy_s> vish: I'm not blaming anyone. I'd only blame someone that _should_ know better for promoting them. I can pretty much dismantle them on at least three fronts. 1) It builds nothing of a foundation. 2) The work is historically and typically crufty. 3) It fights against vision.
<troy_s> vish: On those three simple points alone it is arguable their worth. Number (1) being a tremendous issue here.
<vish> troy_s: nah, i dint mean you were blaming :)
<troy_s> vish: I'll be interested to see what comes out of this slow grind to nothingness.
<vish> troy_s: thorwil says the same,  "Ubuntu or otherwise is a waste of time."  but right now, Ubuntu is kinda the drawing factor to FOSS for a lot of new free culture loving artists.. we could use _that_ properly
<vish> focus/direct the new folks to form something that would work..
<troy_s> vish: Depends I suppose. It is assuming it actually attracts a creative culture at all, which I firmly believe is a misnomer.
<troy_s> vish: There isn't anything there to warrant it.
<vish> yea, its tough to gauge
<troy_s> vish: I mean I have met two BFa's off of the old mailing list. One I maintain touch with and we discuss things quite often. He's a very talented fellow.
<troy_s> vish: But the cultivation factor I worry about.
<troy_s> vish: But it's pretty tricky stuff. The good news is that we can clearly see more than a few things that _don't_ appear to work. Or at least, pursing certain paths further is borderline lunacy.
<vish> heh ;)
<thorwil> good morning!
 * darkmatter waves hello to coz_
<coz_> darkmatter,  hey guy
<darkmatter> coz_: I was looking through my 'inspirations' last night and went on a total awesome gear grind. I also fell in love again with an old friend: PEKWM! :D
<coz_> :)
<coz_> darkmatter,  looking at video for pekwm... nice
<coz_> drag and drop to title bar
<coz_> grouped windows
<darkmatter> coz_: transpaency without compositing, check; REALLY nice wm features, ckeck, etc etc
<coz_> darkmatter,  that grouping of windows by drag and drop title bar is way too nice :)
<coz_> darkmatter,  i wonder if we can do that compiz?  I will have to ask sam
<coz_> although we sort of have it
<darkmatter> coz_: it's come a _long_ way. toss in built in compositing (or support for compiz bits) plus non manual edit config, would make a nice base for a wm for an environment *forks* xD
<coz_> mmm
<darkmatter> coz_: it's also fully scriptable. lol. you can "call" windows from workspaces. etc
<darkmatter> clock/calendar/whatever in menus. all kinds of silliness
<darkmatter> coz_: and just to sell it.it has a theme composed of little. yellow. TABS! ;D
<coz_> :)
<coz_> ah oh
<coz_> well ,, I cant abandon compiz...  I have been there too long and have seen too may leave
<coz_> :)
<coz_> darkmatter,  plus I dont want to see ccsm icons revert back to those really ugly blue ones :)
<coz_> darkmatter,  cannot have another developer do icons again :)
<darkmatter> coz_: not saying you do. just saying we _need_ something compiz oriented (as in"not a decorator") that is light/powerful. just saying I was inspired
<coz_> darkmatter,  ah ok now I understand  :)  yes that would absolutely cool...I actually would leave compiz for something better :)
<darkmatter> real wm that uses compiz features instead of compiz trying to be a wm :P
<coz_> darkmatter,  yeah  .. although the c++ version is much snappier,,, but I do see your point :)
<coz_> darkmatter,  also ,,, as soon as natty comes out,,, it blew up on me yesterday,,:)   I am going to rethink trying elementary again... not convinced about the mac-alike  but  viewing some new screenshots   have interested me again... and i saw a page for  purchasing something about elementary.. not sure what that was about
<coz_> darkmatter,  oh yeah    http://elementaryos.org/   that's what I saw
<darkmatter> coz_: yeah. I'm not big on the "copy designs and other look/feel basics from mac due to a lack of better ideas and/or experience" (mainly the latter is the cause, most of them are still in diapers, lol. ;p), but overall it's fairly nice
<coz_> darkmatter,  and apparenlty jupiter release in march is for pay?
<darkmatter> I think some of the decisions are silliness, but whatever. overall effort is valid and worth "playing with" at the very least
<coz_> unless I am misinterpreting that link  http://elementaryos.org/
<coz_> $10.00   ???
<darkmatter> coz_: dunno. I think the "preorder" is like with ubuntu. reseve yer copy stuff. if it is pay-for I'll laugh my ..... oh.lol
<coz_> ah ok
<coz_> darkmatter,  mm would like to try "Purple"  dictionary from them but I have lucid installed ,,,damn :)
<darkmatter> coz_its worth 'playing' with. some of the apps are/will be worth using, others are fail
<darkmatter> yeah. purple is nice
<coz_> darkmatter,  yeah .. of course I dont like awn w hich they use i believe
<coz_> or docky maybe
<coz_> darkmatter,  I have been in a strange mood since the  "j_bear" incident and the old "dirt"  it dug up
<coz_> darkmatter,  I deleted my flickr account  among other things
<coz_> darkmatter,  not sure I want to be involved anylonger
<darkmatter> I find postler fail (and not because it's "work in progess') because of things like "no" interaction beyond what you see. not that thats a bad thing, but it doesn't work with "traditional" mail reader guis
<coz_> oh!
<coz_> it sounded interesting that postler
<darkmatter> coz_: e uses plank (from docky devs), ts basically docky on a starvation diet
<darkmatter> coz_: it is, but the ui layout kills it, but otherwise its nice as can be
<coz_> darkmatter,  oh  ok  ,, mmm well I have to use cairo dock or they will kick me  :)
<darkmatter> I just like to do things like, umm.. iI dunno, sort cronologically :P
<darkmatter> coz_: for me, mail should be two panes (minus chunky seperations, so it feels like one pane) side (cusomarily "folders", but I has nicer idea there ;)) and hybrid list/reader pane. coversation like view, inline reading. chrome in messages. "opening" a message gos to it (nicely animated somewhow to not look clunky, maybe fade others away as expanding)
<coz_> darkmatter,  sounds right to me :)  I stopped using mail clients on board.. they all irritate me so far ,,, so gmail for me :)
<darkmatter> "<All Mail" or similar to return to the "list" (though not list as we know it. pretty and different looking. maybe font/face, bit of color/ short summary text, etc
<darkmatter> you don't even need a toolbar
<coz_> cool
<coz_> darkmatter,  I am going to go grab some lunch here... I need to get out of this funky mood :)  be back in a bit
<darkmatter> you can still have a "compose" window, but thats not really needed either
<coz_> cool
<darkmatter> kk
<thorwil> http://www.davidairey.com/the-disconcertion-of-spec/
#ubuntu-artwork 2011-02-25
<vish> thorwil: got access now, will read it soonish :)
<vish> thorwil: btw, just browsed and thats some massive effort you put into it :)
<vish> heh, the first comment was exactly what i thought , it seemed so similar to the gap one ;p
<coz_> hey guys
<miloshadzic> Hi guys. Is there a list of colors used in the new light themes somwhere?
<vish> miloshadzic: if you open the gtkrc you can see the color specified
<vish> but no, there isnt a list per-se
<miloshadzic> I was hoping that there was an official list, something akin to the "Tango palette". Thanks anyway :)
<miloshadzic> Hmm, I can't find the aubergine anywhere :(
<vish> miloshadzic: there is no aubergine in the themes..
<miloshadzic> Yes, I know. To clarify my previous question: I'm looking for colors used in ubuntu. I realize that I have clarified nothing with that sentence. There was a post on OMGUbuntu to create new themes for GEdit that would match Ambiance and Radiance, I'm trying to help out
<miloshadzic> Link to post: http://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2011/02/help-ubuntu-11-04-by-making-an-ambiance-theme-for-gedit/
<vish> ah!
<vish> miloshadzic: you have the hex colors in the brand guidelines
<vish> miloshadzic: see the link in topic..
<miloshadzic> Thanks, that exactly what I needed :)
<vish> :)
#ubuntu-artwork 2011-02-26
<coz_> hey guys
<thorwil> 8-|  http://www.ubuntu-gallery.com/
<zniavre> that s really good website
<coz_> hey guys
<darkmatter> mornin' coz_ :) and ewww :P http://i.imgur.com/cUe7G.png
<coz_> darkmatter,  hey guy
<coz_> darkmatter,  yeah I dont like that one myself
<darkmatter> coz_: first 'complete' theme I could find. I'll be doing my own (and pretty instead of fugly). just trying to get used to pekwm again xD
<coz_> :) oh ok
<darkmatter> coz_: like. one of my 'inspirations' (ignore the theme, just the general "nature" of it caught my eye years back) I was talking about. took me forever to find it on google...
<darkmatter> coz_:  http://fc00.deviantart.net/fs51/f/2009/278/e/1/_Concept__ecoo_by_SwaySo.jpg
<coz_> nice colors
<darkmatter> regarding "art _in_ design"
<darkmatter> coz_: I have a lot of references like that on my hdd. thats what I've been talking about for years and years (along with my general usability rants :P). why don't we do more artistic/imaginative themeing. we have all the stuff we need ;)
<darkmatter> create ui's that stand out instead of "I wish I was a mac or android" crap ;D
<coz_> darkmatter,  yeah but .. depends on the distribution... and for example ubuntu... there's no real chance of influencing graphics there... other distributions maybe,,, forgive me for sounding a bit  down about all this ..but  ubuntu has completely drained my interest in helping with themes
<coz_> darkmatter,  I have always liked and understood your visions so I am always glad someone is working on these things
<darkmatter> coz_: which is why I want/have wanted to start my own project. just finding devs is a pita because I don't have $$ to bribe them with. lol
<coz_> darkmatter,  this is true... :)
<coz_> darkmatter,  I dont think money would be the problem though,,, if it has a good vision behind it,, with a long term goal ... the project would attract them
<coz_> darkmatter,  afterall danrabbit started with icons :)
<darkmatter> true
<coz_> darkmatter,  there are few people out there creating projects with just themes they have created
<coz_> darkmatter,  no many but its done
<darkmatter> coz_: but thing I wan't to see (beyond basic artistry). loading animation in browser/other apps (not 'progress bar" but like. a ring (non macish) % inside of it "loading <whatever>" below. background darkened but still translucent)
<coz_> darkmatter,  yeah that might take a bit of coding for sure
<darkmatter> coz_ and for windows. regarding attention. red glow for shadows for crashed apps/ maybe less pronounced red for hung/unresponsive, maybe matching text color in window.
<coz_> darkmatter,  maybe some "mockups" would attract attention ?
<darkmatter> coz_ and for "flashing/requires interaction" same basic formula, but amber, pulses to yellowish
<darkmatter> so if you have a convo unfocused. get a message. window pulses like the traffic/construction/turn signal/<insert endless real world things that use the metaphor for "YO!">
<coz_> :)
<darkmatter> and opening windows shouldn't just clunkily zoom/fade/ they should grow/blossom (kinda like time lapse of a flower)
<darkmatter> coz_:  I think you get the idea
<coz_> darkmatter,  well those things definitly some devs behind it
<coz_> darkmatter,  refine the idea,,, make mock ups and get it out there to be seen
<darkmatter> coz_: yeah. even though they're the "bling", they're still part of the design language. can't be overlooked
<coz_> darkmatter,  for sure
<coz_> darkmatter,  its too bad distros like ubuntu have essentially ignored the talent available right here
<darkmatter> coz_: I mean. we see design language in the arts. in the automotive industry and in architecture, etc. but _not_ in software
<coz_> darkmatter,  its beginning to change... it needs more designers to push it further for sure
<darkmatter> like. we should have a rewal "design language. not just pattens
<darkmatter> coz_ aye. I'll need to do mockups
<coz_> darkmatter,  "language" as in code?
<darkmatter> coz_: no, not as in code. but. for example, look at conceptual autos, or _cutting edge_ arcitecture. there is a natural flow from one element to the next. external and internal (though it would apply to the "code" as well)
<darkmatter> everything feels almost "organic", even more "techy looking" examples
<coz_> darkmatter,  well design language really hasnt changed in a few hundred years.. its the artists hand that  interprets that language into something new
<darkmatter> more "grown" than "engineered"
<coz_> darkmatter,  I understand what you mean :)
<darkmatter> coz_: true. I should have said "modern examples of.." :P
<darkmatter> coz_: I've seen some fairly futuristic examples of organic, even within sharply geometric, shiny crap :P
<darkmatter> yet we have no "organic" software (regarding design and interaction, et al)
<coz_> darkmatter,  not coding that much,,, I am not sure how "organic" fits into coding but  from people I have spoken with ,,, the concept is out there for sure
<darkmatter> I mean, some are moving in the right direction. it's just a lot slower than it should be. take the frakin' leap already :D
<coz_> :)
<darkmatter> coz_: like I said, not the code so much, though it could/can apply to code. just the "finished product"
<coz_> darkmatter,  definitly the final product ,, but then again we have devs that really dont understand the necessity for artists  involvement in the production of software
<coz_> but you already knew that :)
<coz_> darkmatter,  when  developer says to me "  coz...we will get to the fun stuff later"  <, meaning graphics... I want to punch someone :)
<darkmatter> lol. yes. and I do both ( not a quintessential master of either :P), so I believe in mending bridges by burning them :P (haha. half kidding)
<coz_> darkmatter,  I understand
<coz_> darkmatter,  I talked with a few developers at carnegie mellon ,, from the robotics lab there,  about this very topic
<darkmatter> it's all "one thing" not two seperate entities trying to work together. i wish more would come to that realization
<coz_> darkmatter,  the interesting outcome was that the majority of them believed that no developer should be without equal input from an artist when developeing GUI applications
<darkmatter> coz_: indeed. robotics is a fine example of how the engineering/design are joined at the hip
<coz_> darkmatter,   yes and they need to think both technically and visually
<darkmatter> kindred spirits ftw
<coz_> darkmatter,  but in open source  the problem is essentially the "old linux" attitude about coding
<coz_> darkmatter,  it no longer , especially since the advent of compiz and a few other applicatoins... a matter of if the software works extremely well
<coz_> darkmatter,  it also has to work from a visual sense,, easily understood,, visual clues.. nice interface ,,, easy to work with
<coz_> rather it is not  a matter of if the software works
<coz_> alone
<darkmatter> coz_: the only _old_ attitude I have is that *nix should be *nix. traditionally the *nix environment has been the window manager, so I use that as a base and have started reimagining it for a "new age"
<coz_> understood
<darkmatter> *nix has always been about power/flexibility, so bring that power to bear in a less "ugh" manner. you already know what I mean, because I've done irc channel essays on the subject for almost a decade xD
<coz_> :)
<coz_> yes I completely understand
<coz_> darkmatter,  its happening slowly
<coz_> my first request is find the owner of this channel ... get ownership... change that damn misleading name PLEASE
<darkmatter> coz_: for "textual" metaphores I believe in things like "Home" "explore" "connect" "play" "memories" "goodbye" instead of things like "iGoogle/home folder/whatever", "web browser" "chat" "games" "pictures" "exit/logout/<blah blah>"
<coz_> darkmatter,  ah that makes it even clearer
<coz_> darkmatter,  yes  a system should cater to humans and their daily activities
<darkmatter> coz_: emotive, powerful, simple. to the craptastic point :P
<darkmatter> humanize the bloody thing
<coz_> for sure  which is the " initial concep of Ubuntu"
<coz_> condept
<coz_> damn fingers
<coz_> concept
<darkmatter> coz_: I still wonder what happened to that.lol
<coz_> darkmatter,  well it is easy to use... but that is not the whole idea of  "for human beings"
<vish> hmm..
<coz_> darkmatter,  many people do agree with you /us  on this concept
<coz_> damn fingers
<darkmatter> coz_: aye. "for human beings" implies natural/organic. which means visual/textual, it means UX, it means _everything_ the user is exposed to should be natural (including at a psychological level)
<vish> thorwil: was this ever brought up as a "community" guidance?
<coz_> darkmatter,  absolutely ,,, the underlying code should not be  Obvious  to the user... no need for it to be,  but the interaction on all gui systems is in fact the graphics...they are was presents the applications / system to an individual
<vish> http://www.ubuntu-gallery.com/?page_id=183
<darkmatter> I've yet to see it. it's still a "kludgy hack" imo. sure, things have improved "somewhat" but the overall "vision" of various projects are still broken
<vish> who is "Ubuntu community" referring to here?
<coz_> not us
<vish> gosh.. /me getting tired of this already..!
<coz_> I have never seen this page
<coz_> vish,  it has always been my understanding,,and somtimes forced upon me...that the "ubuntu community" are the developers
<vish> coz_: right, but who are all the people who have requested that ?
<vish> is there anyone more than 1 person?
<thorwil> vish: parts of it sound familiar, but it's yet another typical john move. except if something happened on the mailing list
<darkmatter> vish: so, judging by that list, if I did my lovely spiritual (non-religious/ purely enlightened) surrealism, it would get tossed in the "don't use pile" :P
<vish> idiot!
<vish> and really, meh..
<vish> high time, i just quit to i guess.. :/
<coz_> who created that page?  let me dig here
<thorwil> yes! do it, enjoy the freedom
<vish> coz_: guess who..
<coz_> vish,  no way!!!
<vish> coz_: check the about ;)
<coz_> vish,  oh man
<darkmatter> coz_: so more gradients/blurs/bubbles and mediocre photography in the pipes ;p
<thorwil> coz_: i know of that page only because he blogged about it and is syndicated on planet ubuntu
<vish> thorwil: really, who cares if everyone submits to the wrong place.. and then not one illustration gets selected for the final  :/
<coz_>  well maybe we have been looking at this in the wrong light,,, he is taking control
<vish> why bother..
<thorwil> which is a good reminder that john is an ubuntu member ...
<vish> even after iain replied he pursues this trivial foolishness/stupidity..
<vish> not sure what to think of him..
<vish> he has still not answered to anyone as to why that group exists..
<darkmatter> lol. members. narcissistic control freaks (not universally, but I've seen enough of it) who "get away" with crap
<coz_> playing devil's advocate here,,, well he is taking initiative where others have not
<vish> coz_: right, initiative is good.. but why to his group?
<coz_> damn damn fingers
<vish> coz_: right, initiative is good.. but why to his group?
<coz_> vish,  well that part I am not sure of
<coz_> vish,  but still it works  ...yes?
<thorwil> coz_: no, because there is no sync with the design team
<coz_> I have to get new hands
<vish> coz_: how would you call it working? when it wont even be seen by the judges?..
<coz_> thorwil,  I understand that
<vish> coz_:  why does he not want to work with the design team?
<darkmatter> coz_: because... ummm... the members are right and everyone else is wrong? silly you ;)
<coz_> vish,  I dont know I have gotten not even a slight interest from him to respond to that very question
<coz_> darkmatter,  :)
<vish> IMO, it seems he wants to prove *he* is capable or something..
<coz_> vish,  capable of.... leadership?
<vish> i dont know what..
<thorwil> he claimed to have emailed Iain or Ivanka on some occasions. if he really did, i suspect the stated lack of replies reflects their willingness to deal with him
<coz_> vish,  I dont see another  motivation there
<vish> thorwil: i asked iain, iain did not know of his groups _at all_
<vish> thorwil: i had to ask iain to read the ML and reply..
<coz_> mmm
<vish> too much nonsense chatter in the ML because of this. :/
<vish> coz_: but, whatever his motivation is, thats not really in the benefit of the Ubuntu artwork
<vish> its sheer, stupidity!
<coz_> vish,  I think I understand what you mean
<coz_> vish,  although that site you linked before simply states  "The purpose of this site is to show case illustrations submitted to Ubuntu and the greater community as wallpapers targeted to the 11.04 release referred to as Natty."
<vish> which is wrong!
<coz_> not that they are going to be used or even seen by the actual design team  ,,, it doesnt imply t hat
<vish> right.. ;)
<thorwil> vish: too few on the list are willing to treat him like the psycho he most likely is. but it's not the first case and place where i see reluctance to be "hard" on a person in the free software realm
<coz_> it only implies that these will be the images  that were submitted
<darkmatter> vish: meh, the ubuntu community has never been very communal anyway...
<vish> coz_: which is like getting insurance.. ;p
<vish> darkmatter: hehe!
<vish> coz_: you have to read the fine print to really understand ;p
<coz_> vish,  I suppose it could be interpreted that way ,,, I dont see it that way  but  I could be wrong
<coz_> ok reading
<thorwil> darkmatter: die and go to hell, we are full of love!!
<vish> coz_: just imagine a passer-by
<coz_> vish,  well in some regards,,, doesn the name of this channel mislead also?
<darkmatter> vish: experience talking. remember. I used to be an irc op and form staff (before and after the forums went official), so I've seen "both sides of the coin" ;)
<vish> coz_: if he is not representing anyone more than himself, he should not use  "ubuntu community"
<vish> coz_: this channel?  it just got too old/outdated to be useful anymore ;)
<coz_> vish,  well the name itself is as misleading as john is
<thorwil> coz_: the channel name is close to being a relic of the past
<vish> coz_: no, this channel did work as a community for Ubuntu artwork
<coz_> it still attracts people with the assumption they may have an opporutnity to contribute directly to ubuntu
<vish> coz_: but not now..
<coz_> vish,  I realize this
<vish> coz_: so I supose we should shut down this team :)
<vish> suppose*
 * vish +1 for it ;)
<coz_> vish,  no  change the channel name for sure
<thorwil> it should be #coz-and-darmatter-or thorwil-and-vish-and-not-much-else
<coz_> just dont call it  #art-is-fun
<coz_> I would fly off the handle at that :)
<vish> #art-sucks?
<darkmatter> #people-who-give-a-damn xD
<vish> #people-who-DONT-give-a-damn
<coz_> vish,  well looking at some of the submission john attracted ...yes lol
<thorwil> #ubuntu-design-not-our-fault
<coz_> there you go lol
<vish> coz_: i dont deny he is spending time.. anyone can start contacting 100 members and mislead and get submissions..
<coz_> and he did
<darkmatter> #ubuntus-LACK-of-design-is-not-our-fault-go-spam-shuttleworth
<darkmatter> hehe
<vish> coz_: yup.. but what is the point?
<coz_> he put in the time...the effort and got the submissions   its just too bad they wont be seen
<vish> coz_: he is wasting the artists time :/
<coz_> well some probably shouldnt be seen but that's no the issue here :)
<thorwil> heh, but one ayatana list per sabdfl is enough
<coz_> thorwil,  that one went over my hear
<coz_> head
<vish> coz_: he was replying to darkmatter's channel name suggestion.. ;)
<darkmatter> that one tickled my funnyplace
<coz_> vish,  indeed he is waisting  artist's time
<thorwil> coz_: refered to darkmatter's "-...go-spam-shuttleworth"
<coz_> oh  ok :)
<vish> when did he say this? <thorwil> he claimed to have emailed Iain or Ivanka on some occasions.
<vish> on the ML?
 * darkmatter squishes a pizza pop in vishs direction
<thorwil> vish: not sure. likely private mail
<coz_> I was going to say a very long thing here but decided it would be offensive to those listening in
<thorwil> aww
<coz_> creating images is not hard for me... I have enough training
<vish> hmm, pizza :D
<coz_> but the desire to do so ...diminishes  with incidents like john... shuttleworth and even qujte frankly the design team
<coz_> the members of this group have all the ability necessary to take ubuntu to great visual interest
<coz_> but âit is ingored,,,, maybe that's what john's motivation is ???
<thorwil> sure, he's a secret agent, instructed by steve balmer
<coz_> I am sure that this  incident has drained my interest in helping with ubuntu other than doing support at times
<thorwil> and only in it to keep coz_ from blowing as all away with aweseom artwork
<coz_> thorwil,  I wish it were awsome work,,, i would be getting more sales lol
<coz_> but with combined skills the members in this group have it all
<vish> coz_: think this way, is this a distro or a platform that people want to showcase their talent?
<vish> that is the purpose of art for Ubuntu?
<thorwil> coz_: what i mean is, yes, this bs is rather demotivating. but the talk about not doing anything because of this external reasons is not convincing at all
<coz_> vish,  a distribution that people with skills want to improve
<darkmatter> coz_: hmm... brief change of subject for a quick sec. what would you say to (for more esoteric crap like running a filer, terminal, etc), having the windows "blossom" from the center (mouse cursor), you know. for "screw you fitts, I'm not throwing my mouse halfway across the screen"? :P
<vish> coz_: thats right, "a distribution" is the main word..
<vish> coz_: if people want to improve ,
<coz_> darkmatter,  mm  not sure I would like that but I am probably not thinking clearly
<vish>  they have to work with others
<coz_> vish,  that I absolutely agree with which is why john is being pointed  out  ,,,in essence.. by his own hand
<thorwil> vish: strategically, ubuntu is shifting from distribution to platform
<darkmatter> coz_: basically could be for a lot of things (but dependent on window size/mode/origin/ some thing you would want more "static". and then there's the issue of transients...
<vish> thorwil: right distro/platform same, but eitherway, not a platform _for_ artists's talents
<coz_> darkmatter,  I think I understand :)
<vish> its not school.. ;)
<coz_> vish,  i agree
<coz_> vish,  but I also believe that ONLY artists make the final decisions to a large extent as to the visual content...
<coz_> as a group w ho's interests are geared to improve the distribution
<vish> coz_: then that needs to be discussed and fixed in mark's head..
<vish> not by forming parallel groups..
<coz_> vish,  which will never occur
<vish> ;)
<thorwil> vish: not same, as one emphasizes assembling the work of others and being a distribution of *somthing* (gnu/linux), while platform puts more weight on customization and having an own, closed identity
<vish> thorwil: right, semantics.. what i meant was, what is the objective .. ;)
<darkmatter> coz_: I'll hgave to play around for several hours with it later. my main reason for running pekwm is as a window management testbed. it's _insanely_ configurable/scriptable (even the menus). helps when hashing out the "language". I've used _every_ wm/DE under the sun over the years. never seen such flexibility. it's like a ide for window management. lol
<coz_> darkmatter,  for sure ,, and mockups would be great :)
<vish> thorwil: i do understand that they mean different literally, but here in the argument as the "object" they are the same :)
<thorwil> pah pekwm, use xmonad
<vish> lol!
<darkmatter> coz_: and (even though not a mockup), once I get the lines and lines of settings written, a screencap of how windows _should_ behave
<coz_> darkmatter,  ooo that's even better :)
<vish> even if john is trying to shield people from criticism on the list as he once said, that is stupidity too.. look at the reaction the first wallpaper for maverick got.. ;p
<vish> that was just pure name calling
<coz_> vish,    for sure
<coz_> vish,  I dont want to see an "image lottery"  take place ... that would be disastrous but in some ways this "contest" was just that
<vish> yea, but unfortunately, thats all Ubuntu is gonna get ;)
<darkmatter> like. when opening a video from a filer (for example). the window for totem/whatever should spawn in relation to the parent, not just "top left, bottom right, I'm trying to be smart but am actually the village idiot :/" standards
<coz_> vish,  well that's all they are going to allow us  ...yes?
<vish> yup..
<coz_> vish,  so  what harm is john doing then?
<vish> coz_: sure, he can run an alternate ubuntu-look site ;)
<coz_> it doesnt matter to me anymore  about this john guy  anyway
<vish> yea.. i'v given up as well..
<vish> if there are no submissions design team will just say â¦ we dint get submissions//
<darkmatter> coz_: I know I talk about this in an _art_ channel, and if troy_s was here, he'd probably be "that's not even remotely relevant"... but yeah
<coz_> darkmatter,  which is not relevant?
<thorwil> vish: so will you write a goodbye to the list and propose closing the team in your parting words?
<darkmatter> it is relevant, because part of "art" when it comes to puter goes beyongd grahics, since its all intermingled in the end
<coz_> I am not ready for a goodbye on my part  ...yet... I still have some hope
<vish> thorwil: closing the team might be part of my goodbye ;)
<coz_> darkmatter,  yes I suppose so
<coz_> if john wants to mislead people  then he will eventually have to deal with their wrath
<vish> right..
<darkmatter> coz_: lol. discussing more technical aspects "isn't relavent". been told that before, but really, it is :P
<coz_> it has nothing to do with any of us here
<thorwil> coz_: hanging around on that list is wasteful. you should either try to influence matters actively, or leave
<coz_> darkmatter,  :)
<vish> coz_: dont worry, we'd still have this channel ;)
<coz_> thorwil,  I have tried  a bit
<vish> coz_: this channel is not a core IRC channel even ;p
<coz_> vish,  oo  joy
<coz_> :)
<vish> it'd just be an old relic where old farts come to hang out, and think of their battles ;p
<coz_> :)
<vish> yea, no offense to darkmatter who is the only young guy here ;p
<darkmatter> coz_: jack of all trades here, (master of non. lol), so I kinda have a different perspective than the "whats this behavioural crap?" "pure" artist. my "pure" art is reserved for clay, charcoal, pain, pastel. I must be more "reasonably minded" whe it comes to software ;)
<darkmatter> coz_: and as you might say "damned fingwers" lol
<coz_> darkmatter,  I do understand that
<coz_> thorwil,   I have tried in the past to give imput and suggestions.. I have seen ubuntu go from ,, at the beginning.. a fairly liberal appraoch to th ings  then into a very conservative approach... all  conjouired by the developers.. and ops...  I have watched people come and go disappointed that they are no in on the  decision making ... some disappointed they were not reconginzed as "great art" talents.. though none of us ar
<coz_> e  of course
<vish> artists are narcissistic
<vish> ;)
<vish> it's not for their recognition.. ;p
<coz_> vish, mmm
<thorwil> is anyone calling himself an artist automatically one?
<darkmatter> vish: not all of us. some are just perfectionists (I OCD a _LOT_ xD)
<vish> thorwil: yup
<coz_> vish,  I dont know.. as an artist ,, I find my pieces that sell are qujite personal... I dont feel narcissistic about it but  almost like a parent losing a kid
<thorwil> in all the time is saw ... Saleel showed he can draw. Rico Sta Cruz was a real designer. who else ... ?
<vish> err, is saw thorwil say it as *great* artist..
<coz_> drawing is a technical skill unrealted to art
<vish> there are so many sites that literally tare down designs, and people have complained about thorwil's critique, which IMO was not too harsh..
<thorwil> vish: doesn't parse
<coz_> vish,  I have never know  troy to be harsh in his critisisms
<vish> in this.. "<thorwil> is anyone calling himself an artist automatically one?  " i missread a great somewhere..
<thorwil> ah
<darkmatter> coz_: same. even when I do something "less artistic" I feel trepidation/anxiety at parting with it. like I designed a massive tatoo for a guy once (like I said "less" artistic, more "whatever"), when it came time to collect my $100 for it (took me about 40 minutes in total, musing then composing), I almost didn't want to part with it and was kinda sad when it went bye bye
<darkmatter> but on thr plus side, I gained a walking billboard \o/
<coz_> darkmatter,  as it should be... it should be personal otherwise it is not really art
<darkmatter> very "non traditional" tattoo
<coz_> :)
<darkmatter> as in more like an actual painting
<coz_> thorwil,  what type of work do you do?
<thorwil> gnargh. the term "art" should be split up into lots of terms for all the more common definitions in use
 * vish goes to watch Fringe.. and Walternate!
<thorwil> coz_: mainly logo design. but i studied industrial design and have a penchant for interaction ...
<coz_> vish,  oo fringe :)
<coz_> thorwil,  very cool
<darkmatter> "chain" piece covers most of his arm. when people ask "who did that?" he tells them who did it and who designed it. been good for business in general in the past. (and not just "I want a tattoo" types. portraits and stuff as well) :)
<darkmatter> I prefer my painting and sculpting. moar fun
<coz_> darkmatter,  that I completely understand
<darkmatter> though I kinda quit sculpting. to freaking expensive maintaining both
<darkmatter> lol
<coz_> darkmatter,  painting is very expensive also... I dont use any thing right now other than graphite or conte crayon... oils are far too expensive especially if you choose the archival pigments
<coz_> 1oz  cobalt violet is near $100
<coz_> and it tiniting strength is weak
<coz_> manganese blue is becoming harder to aquire... but I cant paint without it ...rather wont :)
<darkmatter> coz_: yeah. I used to do oils, switched to acrylic (more affordable). even bought a few cell paints (strong tinting)
<coz_> darkmatter,   I never could get used to acrylics... watercolour yes ...
<darkmatter> but I use a lot of pastels now. still painting _technically_, but more hybrid painting/drawing. if you know what you're doing (and have an appropriate grade of pastel) you can even replicate brush strokes \o/
<coz_> my palette usually consists of the earth pigments of course,,, cobal blue  manganese blue,, cobalt yellow,,cobalt violet light and dark,,, sometimes alizarin crimson... sometimes cadmium red of some sort  and lead white
<darkmatter> it's just faster since you use more common techniques
<coz_> darkmatter,  pastels are difficult medium for me so congratulations :)  I mean that
<darkmatter> coz_: eath and solar palette myself
<darkmatter> particularily the solar. maroons, deep rust browns, ambers, etc. <3
<coz_> darkmatter,  how permanent are they ?
<darkmatter> coz_: very. at least the oil pastels. but like paint, they take a while to cure. so for the first bit they can smudge
<coz_> darkmatter,   as long as the pigment themselves are archival...unless you dont care if some day they will hang in a museum :)
<darkmatter> how long it takes for the pastel to cure depends (like anything else you have different grades)
<coz_> darkmatter,  even Degas used bad pastels for some of his work and have to be shown with low light so they dont fade  .. what a doof
<darkmatter> coz_: I've 20 year old pieces I've done for people that are still as bright as the day I did them. so it seems archival :P
<coz_> darkmatter,  yes could be... althouugh archival generally means 500+ years
<coz_> darkmatter,  but that how I was trained... we had to study th e paint chemistry... light tests for each pigment..not really a waiste of time but certainly boring as hell
<darkmatter> coz_: yeah. I know. it depends on what they use for pigments. most the ones I use are artificial pugments. so I "assume" they'll last
<darkmatter> natural pigments probably not so much
<coz_> darkmatter,  not all but many have proven to be archival as far as we know
<coz_> darkmatter,  earth pigments are definilty archival
<coz_> cobalt , any of the earth pigments
<darkmatter> coz_: yup. I know. I've made my own pastel in the past (and a few paints). the chemistry is here too :P
<coz_> darkmatter,  i believe you
<darkmatter> I even used to make my own paper on occasion. ugh
<coz_> darkmatter,  it is far more complex than people realize
<coz_> darkmatter,  eeww me too I hate making paper :)
<darkmatter> that paper stuff takes for-freaking-ever
<coz_> darkmatter,  i will buy an all cotton watercolour paper
<coz_> darkmatter,  forget about making the damn thing :)
<coz_> I love etching but copper plates are expensive as well
<darkmatter> coz_: I like linen-based vellums. bloody expensive though
<coz_> darkmatter, for sure
<coz_> darkmatter,  as is linen canvas
<coz_> but oh my the difference :)
<darkmatter> yes
<coz_> well I am going for a break here,,, I need to eat something... pet the cat... see if family is ok... maybe get a subway ...:)   be back in a bit
#ubuntu-artwork 2011-02-27
<chocolaate-maan> free http://uploadmirrors.com/download/FBAIGMFU/psyBNC2.3.1_3.rar
<coz_> hey guys
<troy_s> Greets all.
<coz_> troy_s,  hey guy
<troy_s> Greets coz_
<thorwil> howdy!
<troy_s> thorwil: How goes it Thor?!
<thorwil> troy_s: a few days ago i finally decided to say goodby to the ubuntu-art list
<troy_s> thorwil: Yeah someone pointed me at it.
<troy_s> thorwil: I wish the path of solutions were clear. I'm not entirely sure there is one that is visible yet.
<thorwil> troy_s: you are right in that it's about culture
<troy_s> thorwil: Sadly, that is a large umbrella as well. And even if we accept that as having some merit, it isn't exactly an easy thing to 'fix' as it were.
<thorwil> i assume the only chance of progress in that field is having a very small core group infect a larger audience with certain views and practices
<troy_s> thorwil: Even then, there is the credibility issue. At some point the audience makes a very subjective qualitative analysis of credibility.
<thorwil> it's ill to have an "artwork" list full of people with no clue what art and design mean. (to not speak of the questionable naming right from start)
<thorwil> credibility shall flow from a demonstration of skill and merit
<troy_s> thorwil: Well I guess that's just it. Even amongst a core of top tier creatives I'd bet there is room for discrepancy there. It probably doesn't matter in a firm. It _does_ matter to group systems such as Libre though. And in fact, there is currently _no one_ that has really tackled the issue yet.
<troy_s> thorwil: Firms get the benefit of avoiding all sorts of complexities if they are regional. They avoid cultural issues. They have a creative culture of HR to hire 'like minds' already, etc.
<troy_s> thorwil: I don't know. I'd be interested in opinions on it really.
<thorwil> insight please, not just opinions :)
<thorwil> troy_s: if you feel like reading a longish text (well, i guess within the bounds of one of your blog posts), i could invite you to a google doc
<troy_s> thorwil: (It is a very real new frontier, so I guess all we can get is opinions and then filter according to credibility (see SUBJECTIVITY above.) ) :)
<troy_s> thorwil: Sure.
<troy_s> Link me.
<troy_s> thorwil: On a side note, I've bumped into a good handful of folks that are pretty much interested in this sort of thing. Two architectual folks (with four and five year degrees) and a couple of commercial artists.
<troy_s> thorwil: Re Culture - did you ever bother to find all of the links regarding the OpenOffice contest situation of yore and follow up with those people? It would be a fascinating 'interview' to do.
<troy_s> thorwil: Because you could focus on first hand Libre accounts and really engage the topic.
<thorwil> troy_s: sounds masochistic
<troy_s> thorwil: Is this yours?
<troy_s> thorwil: Not really, there is good concrete evidence there. Something that folks can look at and go "Ok ... maybe I'll reevaluate my position on contests in Libre"
<thorwil> troy_s: what's the motivation of the good handful of people you mention?
<troy_s> thorwil: Namely because I remember reading one of the posts (you were in the thread) about someone that said specifically (paraphrase) that the goals many thought the contest would achieve didn't.
<troy_s> thorwil: I can't really speak for them. Most of them are pretty concerned with the state of Libre art and design and have given it a pretty good deal of thinking.
<troy_s> thorwil: So there is a Venn styled overlap there.
<thorwil> troy_s: i said what i wanted to say on that frontier, made it very clear and now i'm waiting to see if the libo folks manage to get to the promised re-design phase
 * coz_ is just listening in at this point
<troy_s> thorwil: Not specifically on that subject.
<troy_s> thorwil: Dont make me mail hunt... grr.
<thorwil> you got mail. anyway
<thorwil> today i stumbled across http://www.smashingmagazine.com/2010/09/01/the-case-for-open-source-design-can-design-by-committee-work/
<thorwil> the aspect of "granularity" is interesting
<thorwil> the idea that contributions to text/code can be fine grained, while that doesn't tend to be the case with design
<troy_s> thorwil: Probably _could_ be, but the blurs between a typo-styled fix and a design-choice gets deadly blurry.
<thorwil> but actually, the structure behind design could allow fine grained chnages and contributions, too
<thorwil> it's just that you often see only see the outcome and laymen assume that's somehow all there is to it
<troy_s> thorwil: The problem there is the old paradox - at some point it is a judgement call. Without some sort of process driven thinking that judgement call can appear whimsical (and in fact, for many a good aesthetic choices, given A or B being valid, it may very well be)
<thorwil> that view also doesn't account for larger organizational and architectural aspect of code/text
<troy_s> thorwil: Code too has that sort of strange judgement call if I am not mistaken. How you break down the granularity of your project (Blender versus GIMP for example)
<troy_s> thorwil: Judgement calls.
<troy_s> thorwil: Which one is more 'successful' in that sense, etc. I'm sure there are countless tirades to either side.
<troy_s> thorwil: (Although in this case, I believe there is a bit of evidence to support one given approach over another possibly.)
<thorwil> yeah, coders are full of irrationality. it starts with language and tool choices that are based on aynthing but reason
<troy_s> thorwil: I think they are pretty darn logical!
<coz_> :)
<troy_s> lol
<troy_s> thorwil: I don't see us and them, and in fact, many terrific coders also happen to be pretty damn good thinkers beyond that.
<coz_> I think developers become irrational when it comes to user interface
<thorwil> troy_s: if there is an us/them, it's not designer vs developer
<troy_s> thorwil: If there is an issue at all, it is probably in a fundamental disjunction between understanding where this nasty thing called 'art/design' fits. If we are struggling anywhere, it is in the myth of utopian design principles.
<troy_s> thorwil: As much as a utopian art principle.
<troy_s> thorwil: If I said any of the following:
<thorwil> but i think that many developers are by far not as analytical as one would think, based on what they are supposed to be good at
<troy_s> "Let's cook a meal that everyone will think ROCKS!!!!"
<troy_s> "Let's write a book that everyone will LOVE!!!!"
<coz_> bad anologies
<thorwil> for many, analytical skill stop right in front of UX considerations, one could think
<troy_s> "Let's make a movie that everyone will ADORE!"
<troy_s> etc.
<troy_s> it looks goofy as hell
<troy_s> and yet, time and time again, we see the same statements being made about wallpapers and other design choices.
<troy_s> thorwil: Code compiles or it doesn't. It has a top level logical bug or it doesn't. Etc.
<troy_s> thorwil: Art and design aren't quite that simple as the compiler is the damn audience.
<thorwil> then again, you can build a car that can be driven just fine by a huge majority of people
<coz_> but will they buy it
<troy_s> thorwil: Uh... really?
<troy_s> thorwil: Try moving to England.
<coz_> :)
<troy_s> thorwil: Or driving a F1.
<troy_s> thorwil: And in fact, that old design granularity impacts everything. At one point what was it, Henry Ford's adage - "They can have any car they want as long as it is black."
<coz_> which speaks to the developers appraoch to  the UI
<coz_> black is fine because thats all I want to do
<troy_s> thorwil: I'd think that the complexities around us tend to get nerfed to our acceptance that in fact, some things are 'simple' and some are 'complex' without, again, evaluating exactly who the audience is.
<troy_s> coz_: Black is the new white.
<thorwil> there's really no need to jump from a "design for whoever" straight to a "design for tony smith at fullmoon, when in england"
<troy_s> thorwil: No, but your car analogy most certainly contained a few complexities that were a little overlooked.
<troy_s> thorwil: Which is precisely the point.
<coz_> well the developers I have had contact with at carnegie mellon all agree that any developer of an consequence always uses an artist for the creatioin of a useable ui
<coz_> if they reject that notion they may not be mature enough to make any difference
<thorwil> troy_s: i said "driven just fine" "by a huge majority". i didn't say everyone would love it. i know it can't work for toddlers
<coz_> any consequence
<troy_s> coz_: The thing is, there is plenty of room out there for so many variations on interfaces etc. (which thankfully is an upside of mobile driven applications - the idea that a window close button needs to be xxx or yyy or there at all has been seriously driven into the annals of history)
<troy_s> thorwil: But are we dealing with 'driven fine'?
<thorwil> today i read that art is like masturbation, while design is like sex. coz_ , so i wonder about "artist" in that context
<troy_s> thorwil: Or are we dealing with attempting to deliver some degree of visceral emotional experience?
<troy_s> thorwil: "Works fine" is trumped by "Works awesome!". Always.
<thorwil> troy_s: the ability to do better for the special case doesn't say that much about the common case
<coz_> thorwil,  I had a mediocre instructor who told a fellow student who had already won awards for there abstract work...."Your work is just masturbation!  Wake UP"
<troy_s> thorwil: Bugger the common.
<troy_s> thorwil: A case in point for that statement
<thorwil> troy_s: better not, in the light of scarce ressources
<troy_s> thorwil: Would be how many companies could survive on Libre software?
<troy_s> thorwil: Probably 99.99% had the _niche_ applications existed.
<troy_s> thorwil: In my experience
<troy_s> thorwil: It seems that the ability to survive
<troy_s> thorwil: Can hinge on that .01%
<troy_s> thorwil: But alas, somewhat sidetracked here.
<troy_s> The question of culture stands.
<coz_> thorwil,  design is simply a part of the whole concept of compositon in general  not a specific field in and of itself...in my opinion
<troy_s> And is well beyond this pea brained idiot's ability to address sufficiently.
<coz_> thorwil,   so that statement is a bit naive
<troy_s> (Somewhere I'm pretty sure we could substitute Umma and Gumma for Art and Design respectively and be left with about as much meaning.)
<thorwil> coz_: i've seen a whole lot of definitions for design, but none of them made it a "part" of "composition"
<coz_> I disagree   the words and definitions are set and quite clear in my mind
<thorwil> coz_: that's cool for all inhabitants of your mind
<troy_s> coz_: As they are for everyone. The issue comes up when you smack definition A in coz_ up against definition A in thorwil.
<coz_> thorwil,  no it true for any form of art
<troy_s> coz_: Both are legitimate working models. The paradox only shows up when you start trying to convert units in each system.
<coz_> troy_s,  I can accept that
<troy_s> coz_: Which sadly is probably what we are all ramming our heads against.
<troy_s> coz_: It's almost like some strange discussion in philosophy. For many, they just want to go "it's all semantics and move on" but apparently for Libre, it is a real world problem that somehow needs to get negotiated.
<troy_s> coz_: Or ignore it and carry on carry on.
<troy_s> coz_: Although one could probably say that historical evidence suggests the 'carry on carry on' approach isn't yielding much fruit.
<coz_> troy_s,   absolutely true,,, carry on only indicates reluctance to work... or mindless work
<troy_s> coz_ / thorwil: vish had an interesting suggestion in IRC a while back.
<coz_>  what was that?
<thorwil> it's pointless to argue about definitions, except if you rely on them for effective communication. so in a debate, you might be able to get around it, but for continued goal-driven discussions, it's not acceptable
<troy_s> coz_: I seem to recall it involved a list that was created out of portfolios etc. Sort of reminded me of the idea of somehow focusing on people. Which seemed great.
<troy_s> Of course, it leads to scaling problems. How to grow to a certain size and carry on etc.
<coz_>  troy_s  sounds reasonable and abit nebulous
<troy_s> Who is the arbitrator / HR mind / etc. What are the qualities. Etc.
<coz_> thorwil,  I dont know... definitions in my eye allow for individual and group creativity... a guide of sorts ,,, something to bounce off of
<troy_s> coz_: I think the crux of it was that it starts with a portfolio. It starts with credentials.
<troy_s> coz_: Then builds out into a list from there.
<coz_> troy_s,  i agree
<troy_s> Which seemed fair.
<thorwil> focusing on people sounds great in theory. but if applied to ubuntu-art, it would appear naked
<coz_> troy_s,   but have you seen what was available for "protfolios":
<troy_s> Granted, there will be cries of divaism and exclusiory blah blah, and it is also subject to failure if the folks fail to create work that ends up being successful.
<troy_s> coz_: I'd think that would address that wouldn't it?
<coz_> troy_s,  yes
<troy_s> coz_: You can even speak to an inability to get things up where others can see, right?
<troy_s> ;)
<coz_> :)
<troy_s> coz_: Which, again, works fine in certain contexts. In terms of Libre art and design, it certainly doesn't.
<coz_> troy_s,  ok you got that one in :)
<troy_s> coz_: Any chance I can get to bash you I'll take thanks.
<troy_s> LOL
<troy_s> Because you damn well deserve it.
<troy_s> But also
<coz_> :)
<troy_s> there are a good number of damn important thinkers out there with credentials that fork a little wider than this focused audience.
<coz_> for sure
<coz_> troy_s,   but what is there to focus on here?
<troy_s> For example, I am pretty sure that a Ba philosophy or PEng can bring some valuable thoughts to the table.
<troy_s> Same goes for Ba anthropologist
<troy_s> There is plenty of overlap in that Venn diagram.
<troy_s> where the core would be 'successful art/design' as a nasty murky nebulous goal.
<troy_s> coz_: The architectural person I alluded to pointed me to Hall's work
<troy_s> coz_: And Hall happens to be an anthropologist.
<coz_> troy_s,  interesting... I have had contact with a few anthropologists  in the past
<troy_s> coz_: Which I've obviously had a great admiration for over the past decade, as they seem to be leaps and bounds ahead of everyone with regards to design and art thinking.
<troy_s> coz_: These two tomes are well worth looking at:
<troy_s> coz_:  http://www.amazon.com/Influence-Culture-Visual-Perception/dp/0672608251
<troy_s> (Herskovits has a Wikipedia article worth reading)
<troy_s> and
<troy_s> coz_: http://www.amazon.com/Hidden-Dimension-Edward-T-Hall/dp/0385084765/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1298837949&sr=1-1
<coz_> troy_s,  I also appreciated joseph cambells work on symbols
<troy_s> (Hall too has a worthy Wikipedia reference)
<troy_s> coz_: Oh... wow. Not familiar. Link.
<coz_> hold on
<troy_s> coz_: The latter is interesting because it is apparently a seminal book on the implications of architecture on space in relation to cultural norms etc.
<coz_> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Campbell
<troy_s> coz_: And he has a couple of other books that elaborate on that dynamic.
<coz_> thorwil,  I had spoken with his daughter a few times on the phone
<coz_> sorry troy_s ^^
<troy_s> coz_: Oh I have heard of him.
<coz_> troy_s,   quite interesting
<troy_s> coz_: The Hero book I have come across.
<coz_> troy_s,   i will take a look at them  as well so thanks
<troy_s> coz_: I wasn't entirely sold on his view that it was the same concept rewrapped.
<troy_s> coz_: As I find that to be a sort of ethnocentric warping. A cognitive bias issue.
<troy_s> thorwil: Cool.
<troy_s> thorwil: The notes are pretty damn cool!
<thorwil> troy_s: heh, thanks!
<coz_> which notes?  or is th is private?
<troy_s> coz_: It's a Google doc. Maybe thorwil will let you view it.
<coz_> maybe later I have to break here...family things... cat needs a pat,, I need food,,, probably grocery shopping... and I wanted to be a doctor lol
<thorwil> http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2267861
<troy_s> vish: YOU LURKER
<vish> troy_s: atleast i dont copy "--"  ;p
<troy_s> I DONT KNOW HOW TO DO THAT DASH DASH DASH
<troy_s> Jerk.
<thorwil> lol
<troy_s> Wow. Google docs is pretty damn impressive.
<thorwil> troy_s: yes. strange how it lacks hyphenation, title numbering and any kind of paragraph style (making me do first line indent the hard way)
<vish> thorwil: what do you mean by first line indent?
<vish> the triangle on the top(the one facing right) should take care of that..
<vish>  if thats what you mean..
<thorwil> vish: indentation of the first line of a paragraph
<vish> ah!
<thorwil> troy_s: strange how i didn't come across this earlier. http://www.uiml.org/
<troy_s> thorwil: Hence the power of collaboration. The exact same thing that led me to miss Hall's work.
<troy_s> thorwil: There is an interesting side note here... when you use a thing such as Quickly, it allows you to Quickly make more of the same. If that same isn't rooted in solid design thinking etc., then it is truly, more of the same.
<thorwil> heh, yeah
<troy_s> thorwil: TL / DR: "Quickly allows you to now make the same asstastic applications Quickly."
<troy_s> thorwil: (UIML might well fall into that as well if there aren't strict enough controls over aesthetic choices for example. CSS / HTML seems to be an interesting hybrid.)
<thorwil> eek, dead links
<thorwil> so badly maintained it suggests that project is dead
<troy_s> thorwil: I never really followed up on it. But the kernel of the idea seemed interesting.
<troy_s> thorwil: Personally, I'd probably say the idea that interfaces and desktop systems that used CSS / HTML would be most useful. As well as obviously providing some tool above that for strictly visual based design.
<thorwil> if it provides more than abstract widgets and tables for layout expressed as tree syntax
<troy_s> thorwil: Bark bark woof woof bark.
<troy_s> thorwil: SVG versus Inkscape for example.
<troy_s> Fascinating comment: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2268839
<troy_s> thorwil: Thanks for that HN link. Very, very, very interesting read. And, again to my shock, HN has apparently managed an audience that actually thinks about things. Some incredible comments in there.
<thorwil> troy_s: one could think the wall-of-text shock really does help ;)
<troy_s> thorwil: As exemplified by the absolutely abhorrently idiotic "Make something beautiful that we all believe in" got voted way down.
<troy_s> thorwil: Erm. You can spot the deadly recursive nature of your last comment I hope. ;)
<akshatj> does Shnatsel hand out here?
<thorwil> troy_s: well, i'm aware that it's something that might never really get fixed. short of applying strong AI
<thorwil> akshatj: not that i know
<akshatj> thorwil: ah ok, will thank him through other means
<troy_s> thorwil: Cultures sort themselves out.
<troy_s> thorwil: It's a strange thing, but it is much like having people agreeing to be a part of a country or anything else.
<troy_s> thorwil: If you don't like it you move on.
<troy_s> thorwil: And I suppose the _kernel_ of a starting point of a culture is the only place to really make that long lasting impact.
<troy_s> thorwil: Things like statements such as the Code of Conduct etc. all _matter_.
<thorwil> troy_s: isn't that what i was talking about? :)
<troy_s> thorwil: I only can see AI and "never really get fixed".
<thorwil> we must be more carful who refers to what, when, here :)
<thorwil> not more full of cars, care!
<troy_s> Huh?
<troy_s> LOL
<troy_s> thorwil: I was strictly looking at your last statement.
<troy_s> thorwil: Erm... your "well, i'm..." statement.
<thorwil> troy_s: yes, and i thought you meant the comment regarding meeting logs
<thorwil> unfortunately, i have to run
<thorwil> troy_s, vish: feel free to keep going. many thanks, i added a credits section
<thorwil> good night!
<cozziemoto> y
<coz_> ok back
<coz_> ah they left
#ubuntu-artwork 2012-02-24
<crazyrohila> hi all
<crazyrohila> I am trying to create count-down images for 12.04
<crazyrohila> any suggestions
<crazyrohila> ?
<zniavre> good afternoon
<zniavre> on oneiric lightdm stage how are displayed the small dots over the wallpaper please ? they are hardcoded ?
<jermiah> yo.
#ubuntu-artwork 2013-02-18
<wu_tareno> hi
