#ubuntustudio-devel 2010-05-10
<ScottL> detrate, i watched that video, that hella cool!
<detrate> I picked one up today and downloaded ableton.  lots of fun
<detrate> I like the way ableton sells their product versus how competitors do
<detrate> it's a full feature application but you cannot save or export.
<detrate> others will used 30 minutes sessions or gimped functionality
<detrate> ableton is a very smooth, strong application, it is far more solid than virtual dj or traktor
<scott-work> upcoming meeting is up on the wiki:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/Meetings/2010May16
<rlameiro> scott-work: thanks, maybe we could make a google calendar for the team, and the team just subscribes to the calendar
<rlameiro> the ones with smrtphones etc, its very handy :D
<astraljava> Agreed.
<scott-work> rlameiro: that's a good idea!
<scott-work> damn, he left already
<scott-work> i was going to ask him to do it ;)
<scott-work> quadrispro: you just saved me a lot of work :)  thanks!   re: zynjacku
<scott-work> i think i have a google calendar set up at:  http://www.google.com/calendar/embed?src=tv04341i2sesk9mvhmc0im53o8%40group.calendar.google.com&ctz=America/Chicago
<scott-work> i hope the time is right
<scott-work> due to time zones
<detrate-> scott-work: I'll check out those emails tonight, I was just enjoying my weekend and exercising my creative / technical mind by getting my audio setup built up a bit
<detrate-> it's still not fully configured... and it's almost a myth that setting up audio equipment is easier on winodws
<detrate-> I still have to figure out how to route my applications through jack so I can mix virtual dj and ableton before going to the soundcard
<scott-work> detrate-: no problem, i just wanted to get my part done and to you so it's ready
<scott-work> and lols @audio on windows myth
<detrate-> traktor + my controller = pain in the ass to configure
<detrate-> virtual dj just worked (though it's a LE version specific to my controller)
<detrate-> ableton was pretty easy to get right
<detrate-> ableton is magic
<detrate-> I've been working on getting my controller(s) working with linux
<detrate-> no such luck yet... I have the controller recognized... but no communication with mixxx yet
<scott-work> i've never used ableton but i've heard some good thing about it though
<scott-work> i've used Home Studio by Cakewalk and Ardour only
<detrate-> I highly recommend you try ableton
<detrate-> very solid feel to it
<andyzweb> is PAE enabled or disabled in the 32-bit x86 10.04 kernel?
<astraljava> andyzweb: Since there is a linux-generic-pae kernel package available for i386, I would assume it's disabled for the default one.
<rlameiro> ScottL: ping
<ScottL> rlameiro, pong
<rlameiro> ScottL: did you looked at the mail i sent you?
<rlameiro> I am aware now, that about the same time you also made a calendar...
<rlameiro> :D
<rlameiro> i love the irc logs on this channel, its awesome:D
 * ScottL just realized the kids spilt yogart on the floor
<rlameiro> oops, thats is not good
<ScottL> rlameiro, yes i looked at the email, i had to change the language to english from porteguese
<ScottL> :)
<rlameiro> sorry, i forgot
<rlameiro> you have the account
<rlameiro> you can change the password
<rlameiro> and also the secondary e-mail, for future uses of the team
<ScottL> i was going to use my own personal email account but i like this better, that was a good idea
<ScottL> afk a bit
#ubuntustudio-devel 2010-05-11
<rlameiro> hey scott-work :D
<scott-work> hi rlameiro :)
<rlameiro> scott-work: i was thinking on this yesterday, maybe we should integrate the calendar stuff on the website, maybe on the dev section, or maybe add a option to anyone interest to add his/her email to be warned/paged when meetings are comming
<scott-work> i tried it briefly yesterday but the code didn't work correctly (well, at all actually)
<scott-work> but maybe i did something wrong, why don't you try it also
<scott-work> i tried it on wiki.ubuntu.com.  maybe it might work on help.ubuntu.com
<rlameiro> hummm i think you would need to bypass the wiki parser thing
<rlameiro> i dont know if that is allowed on ubuntu's wikis
<rlameiro> that could do a lot of harm, or be used for malicious purposes
<scott-work> when the website is updated we can always include the google calendar into it
<scott-work> rlameiro: what do you teach at your university?
<scott-work> aren't you working on a masters or doctorate also?
<rlameiro> finishing master on teaching music
<rlameiro> i am thinking on aplying next year for PhD on music
<scott-work> don't you use pure data at school?
<rlameiro> investigating someting related with opensource/libre technologies for the use on music and show arts
<scott-work> studying the effects of open source/libre software in the university (benefits to students and university) would be a great meta-research paper :)
<scott-work> rlameiro: take a look at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/ReleasePlanning
<rlameiro> well, if i make, will be on a performance perspective, and how would it be used or if it can be usefull for a musical show performance
<scott-work> i would like to explore developing some new, additional audiences which would include univeristy audio labs as we have discussed previously
<rlameiro> also, maybe develop, my own tools for it
<scott-work> i'm hoping that you, stochastic and I can research their needs
<rlameiro> scott-work: yeap, its a long run, but a worthy one
<rlameiro> scott-work: i am thinking on creating a kind of debate group about this
<rlameiro> i know ubuntu has edubuntu, but there are big differences on what we want to acomplish, and implement on a university
<rlameiro> there is a lot of things to address on this point
<rlameiro> technically speaking and philosophically
<rlameiro> scott-work: so, maybe a working group could be made to address this
<rlameiro> there are a number of persons useing puredata on universities and a lot of them use it on ubuntu/ubuntustudio
<rlameiro> we could group with software groups to ask what they would expect for a media distro on a college enviroment
<rlameiro> and maybe we can "develop" a speciffic metapackage that address the speciffical needs
<rlameiro> for instance, ubuntustudio doesnt come out of the box with super collider/ clam libs etc
<rlameiro> faust and some other more in depth tools that are used on composition college courses
<rlameiro> going away now
<rlameiro> tests time
<scott-work> rlameiro: technically speaking, i believe if a application (or suite of applications) is in the ubuntu archives then it could be included in a default installation with a few caveats
<scott-work> one of those caveats might be restricted items, such as mp3 codecs
<scott-work> but my larger point is that we, as the Ubuntu Studio team, have latitude to include the applications that we feel serve the needs of our audiences
<astraljava> I like the idea of using tasks for that. Not perhaps in the default installation, but that should be discussed. I believe it is anyhow for this cycle?
<scott-work> we could use tasksel during the alternate installation to choose these things as well (heh, i think this might be what astraljava just said)
<scott-work> astraljava: i'm not sure i understand your comment about this cycle?
<astraljava> Exactly. :)
<astraljava> scott-work: Well I assume that US is supposed to take a closer look at what it's trying to deliver, and most importantly, to whom.
<astraljava> ...or that's anyway what I understood of the little talk a while back with Troy et al.
<scott-work> i was hoping that this cycle we could explore who are current audience is, what their needs are, and how are we addressing those needs :)
<astraljava> I think that's exactly what I was trying to say, but poorly. :D
 * astraljava isn't a native English-speaker, so doesn't always make his point clear.
<scott-work> towards the end of this cycle i was hoping that we might start exploring other additional audiences, just identifying them and what we think their charactersitics are and maybe decide which ones to research
<scott-work> astraljava:  i don't think unclear points are limited to non-native English speakers due to this medium (IRC), there are several native English speakers that i routinely misunderstand ;)
<astraljava> Hehe. :) I guess you have a point there.
<scott-work> i'm wondering if we could use tasksel to allow the users to select items not included on the ISO to install as well, i'm thinking specifically of mp3 codecs?  would it download say, ubuntu-restricted-extras and install it?
<scott-work> this would be a potential way around "not shipping on the ISO" although a bit dodgy admittedly
<astraljava> If the network gets configured before that, I don't see why not. Something to think about, anyway.
<astraljava> Off to a baseball game, see ya later. :)
<detrate-> scott-work: have you read shuttleworths post about ubuntu light?
<scott-work> i have detrate- , it seemed to address notebooks quite a bit (and interestingly freedesktop and kubuntu)
<scott-work> oh, and 7 sec internet
<detrate-> well for 10.10 it's strongly aimed towards netbooks but they have a desktop version planned
<detrate-> btw, wordpress 3.0 is set to release this month
<detrate-> and it makes some moves towards being more of a CMS
<scott-work> i fear that eventually Shuttleworth, et all, are going to implement something so horribly invasive it's going to change Ubuntu Studio (re: changes in 10.10)
<scott-work> good news about wordpress 3.0 (unless it's horribly buggy)
<detrate-> well, ubuntu netbook remix already starts LOCKING things down
<detrate-> you cannot edit the main panel
<detrate-> they call this a 'feature'
<detrate-> because it's really a cheap workaround to stop conflicts if you change to "desktop mode"
<detrate-> but I do not like the idea of being locked out of an open-system, feels very OS X like
<detrate-> also scott-work, I think I've found someone to do the design of the new website
<detrate-> which frees up more of my time to do the technical parts
<rlameiro> scott-work: well, the software/tools i talked about are on the ubuntu repos, no restricted things, so it could be "easy" to make a specific metapackge that address that
<rlameiro> also we can "advertise" that on the upstream channels of each software/tool and look at the feedback
<rlameiro> I think we should keep with ubuntu, but we cant forget mainstream, we are to little, and niche distro to only look at ubuntu as a "example"
<rlameiro> we need to listen users, and needs, and i think we also have an moral obligation in the implementations of techonological things like jack2/lv2/pulseaudio/ etc
<rlameiro> and making pressing on development circles to port software from OSS to ALSA/pulseaudio
<rlameiro> or to support natively jack and etc
<rlameiro> this will never be made by ubuntu, because we have the niche needs that ubuntu vanilla doesnt have
<scott-work> detrate-: hey, that's some good news!
<scott-work> keep in mind i will certainly be available do make copy, content, etc for the new website as well
<scott-work> rlameiro:  all that you said sound good :)
 * scott-work is going to one of my weekly meetings :(
<rexbron> detrate-: To play devils advocate for a moment, the main reason that Shuttleworth is 'locking' things down like that is for the OEMs (which ubuntu Light is only available for irrc)  and the audience it is ment to serve
 * scott-work is back from meeting
<detrate-> rexbron: NBR isn't ubuntu light
<scott-work> abogani: ping
<abogani> scott-work: pong
<scott-work> we were discussing -rt kernel earlier and i got distracted, just to make sure i understand (sorry if i'm being dense or obtuse) a 2.6.32 -rt kenerl does *NOT* exist for either i386 or amd64?
<abogani> scott-work: rt for 2.6.32 never exist neither for Ubuntu nor for any others.
<abogani> scott-work: Don't worry feel free to request as you needs.
<detrate-> is it safe to use ext4 for /boot these days?
<abogani> detrate-: Yes safe for me at least.
<abogani> little doubt: "I suggest to you" or "I suggest you" ?
<detrate-> :-P I'll be a risk taker, whatever
<detrate-> I haven't had any problems using it as / or /home for the past few months
<abogani> jussi: I think than we should evaluate an "exit strategy" for rt kernel into Studio/
<scott-work> abogani: how is your PPU application proceeding?
<abogani> detrate-: The best is place /boot on a different partition with a simple fs like ext2 and use it ro.
<abogani> scott-work: My application was the only one rejected.
<abogani> scott-work: little doubt: "I suggest to you" or "I suggest you" ?
<detrate-> yeah, I've been using ext3 for my /boot
<detrate-> but I figured I'd give ext4 a shot
<scott-work> abogani: i'm really, really sorry to hear that about your application :(
<abogani> scott-work: And I don't found a job yet. :-(
<abogani> scott-work: What is the right: "I suggest to you" or "I suggest you" ?
<scott-work> depends on context really, it could be "I suggest you jump off a building" or "I suggest that you consult a medical professional"
<scott-work> you could also say "I would suggest to you that she is the reason it is wrong"
<abogani> scott-work: Ok. Thanks.
<scott-work> abogani: glad to help.  anytime you need help just let me know
<abogani> scott-work: Thanks your kindness.
<abogani> scott-work: https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-studio-users/2010-May/006243.html
<scott-work> lol abogani, you responded to the email that reminded me of our conversation
<abogani> scott-work: :-)
<abogani> scott-work: If you notice (now and in the future) some big errors let me know, please!
<scott-work> abogani: i thought your email response was quite fitting and well stated
<abogani> scott-work: By the way (and last thing) Is there a Lead for UbuntuStudio?
<scott-work> abogani: I have requested to be lead
<abogani> scott-work: Could you give me 15 min?
<scott-work> certainly
<abogani> scott-work: Ok :-)
<scott-work> okay
<abogani> scott-work: Please go ahead!
<scott-work> oh, okay :)
<scott-work> so far several people have given me encourangment and their support
<scott-work> but i haven't really made a formal declaration either about my intent
<scott-work> but of course since this a logged channel i suppose i have now :P
<scott-work> quadrispro: when I was working on the zynjacku package i noticed that two binaries were built: zynjacu and lv2rack
<scott-work> from the debian bug report i didn't notice any mention of lv2rack, is it included still?
<scott-work> abogani: i'm sorry if that seems anticlimatic after possible buildup derived from the delay
<quadrispro> ehy scott-work, I'm leaving right now, however I don't know, i will see later
<scott-work> quadrispro: okay, no rush, i was just curious
<abogani> scott-work: Sorry Scott but I'm not sure to have well understand what are you trying to say me. 
<astraljava> scott-work: Yeah you can't back down now. :)
<scott-work> lol astraljava
<quadrispro> scott-work, lv2rack is powerful jack rack for lv2 plugins 
<quadrispro> and yep, it's included
<scott-work> quadrispro: i had built and submitted zynjacku for REVU but persia slayed me with comments :P
<scott-work> all deserved i'm sure as it was my first reall attempt at packaging
<scott-work> but yes, i agree about lv2rack, which why i was so concered ;)
<scott-work> and thanks for looking so quickly
<quadrispro> you're welcome, we still have a lot of work to do
<quadrispro> scott-work, now I'm working together with Jaromir, that guy demonstrates everyday his great packaging skills
<quadrispro> scott-work, many packages are arrving through NEW queue :)
<quadrispro> guys, see you later
<abogani> scott-work: :-?
<scott-work> abogani: is that question in response to my "anticlimatic" statement?
<abogani> scott-work: No. Simply I don't understand your statement. And FIY I never heard "anticlimatic" word. :-)
<abogani> *FYI
<abogani> scott-work: Don't worry to be polite with me :-)
<rlameiro> lol
<abogani> scott-work: but please be simple to understand for stupid person like me ;)
<abogani> scott-work: If you think that your statement is simply too rough for channel you can send it via private message.
<scott-work> abogani: a climax (can be sexual) but also a dramatic point in a movie involving suspence...it usually builds up to quick, sharp resolution, that resolution is a climax
<scott-work> i thought perhaps you had left the channel to get a drink and some popcorn waiting for a good story or intrigue and felt like my explanation of the lead situation was rather meager
<abogani> No way I don't understand at all...
 * abogani run to read all back logs
<abogani> Ahhhhhhhhh
 * abogani missed _totally_ that: "scott-work: abogani: I have requested to be lead"
<abogani> scott-work: Sorry without that sentence there isn't a chance for me to understand all follow statements  :-)
 * abogani is stupid
<rlameiro> abogani: you are to hard with yourself...
 * abogani surprised he ever supposed that stochastic became lead and Scott follow him as "right arm".
<abogani> "Right arm" is comprehensible for you?
<abogani> rlameiro: Never enough
<rlameiro> hehe, well Right arm is also a portuguese expression, i do get it
<abogani> rlameiro: :-)
<abogani> rlameiro: Portuguese du Brasil?
<rlameiro> no, from Portugal
<abogani> rlameiro: Beautiful 
<rlameiro> IIRC you are from Milan, aren't you?
<abogani> rlameiro: No. I'm live in Prato at 17 km near Florence in the middle of Italy.
<rlameiro> hummm Florence :D are you a Fiorentina fan?
<abogani> rlameiro: No I don't like "calcio" (football soccer) at all :-)
<abogani> rlameiro: Coimbra?
<rlameiro> abogani: i am teaching here at Coimbra, but I live in Porto, and i am from Aveiro
<rlameiro> did you checked my IP?
<abogani> rlameiro: No I prefer request directly.
<rlameiro> abogani: i thought you checked my ip GEO, because i am in Coimbra :D
<abogani> rlameiro: I force myself from use whois or other trace tools.
<abogani> rlameiro: No simply it is my favorite city in Portugal ;-)
<rlameiro> abogani: its tempting, isnt it :D
<rlameiro> yea, really beautifull, but there are others too
<abogani> rlameiro: For example?
<rlameiro> Evora, Braga, Some parts of Porto and Lisbon, Aveiro, and some more small cities/places
<rlameiro> abogani: http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%89vora
<abogani> rlameiro: I'm prefer Coimbra over Braga. About Porto and Lisboa beautiful cities but I don't like "metropolis". Evora I missed it.
<abogani> scott-work: In any case I'm very happy to know that you'll became new Leader. I regret that probably I don't see the result of you work. Good luck for all! :-)
<rlameiro> abogani: yea, thats the reason i mentioned parts of it :D, Aveiro its also beatyfull, people call it the portuguese venice
<rlameiro> well need to go
<scott-work> abogani:  i was hoping stochastic would transition into the lead position also, and as you say I was expected to support him as much as i could (ala "right arm")
<scott-work> but it appeared to no one was assuming the leadership role
<scott-work> s/to/that
<scott-work> ubuntu studio is too important to me so i am happy to fill the position as i best can
<scott-work> abogani: why do you say you probably will not see the result of the work?
<abogani> scott-work: Simply because I sell my things and the next are: ADSL, laptop and car. 
<abogani> s/sell/'m selling
<abogani> scott-work: Accept an suggestion: please be essential. Don't do too much things and don't let yourself overwhelmed by Studio needs.
<scott-work> abogani: i didn't realize that your situation was that dire!  that is upsetting to hear
<abogani> scott-work: Unfortunately life isn't easy without a job. :-)
<andyzweb> is there anything about the 10.04 ubuntustudio i386 ISO that I should know about before doing a fresh install
#ubuntustudio-devel 2010-05-12
<abogani> wiki.ubuntu.com/Audio
<crimsun> yeah, we're populating that slowly
<rexbron> jussi: how goes UDS?
<jussi> rexbron: damn busy
<rexbron> cool
<rexbron> anything interesting AV wise?
<jussi> not overly, sound indicator for ubuntu is getting a workove
<jussi> I havent been in that close to all that stuff
<ScottL_> wiki.ubuntu.com/Audio->how to stop pulseaudio    heh, that looks like a really good guide
<ScottL_> if the information is factual that would be a good wiki page to push to the users and make them aware
#ubuntustudio-devel 2010-05-13
 * abogani waves
 * abogani waves
<astraljava> o/
<irv_> yarrrr
<astraljava> Yes?
<andyzweb> so does ubuntustudio manage a seperate repo of any kind?
<astraljava> andyzweb: Nope. All Ubuntu official repositories.
<astraljava> andyzweb: There's talk about a Ubuntu Studio PPA, mainly for backports, but that's to discuss in the next meeting on Sunday.
<andyzweb> Are there packages in the official repositories that are contributed primarily by ubuntustudio folks?
<astraljava> andyzweb: There are, but since I've been away during the last couple of releases, I can't recall which. I tried to find this info from the wiki or help.u.c, but to no avail.
<astraljava> andyzweb: I think mscore was prepared by Toby Smithe, and I believe he got it into Debian as well, but am not up-to-date on how it's doing these days.
<astraljava> andyzweb: But I'm sure there are others. Ask around, when others are awake.
<andyzweb> astraljava: ok I plan on being here for the meeting, I put it in my calendar
<astraljava> andyzweb: Good to hear! :)
<rlameiro> crimsun: how is going UDS?
<rlameiro> I am looking at your interview :D
<irv_> do you guys need any visual basic coders
<scott-work> andyzweb: http://qa.ubuntuwire.com/multidistrotools/ubuntustudio.html#notinA
<scott-work> these are packages that are not in Debian at all, so I would say they are maintained by Ubuntu folk
<scott-work> perhaps not all by active ubuntustudio people, but some might be
<scott-work> rlameiro: how are you looking at his interview?  it is a webcam thing?  can you post a link?
 * scott-work has been listening to Sly and the Family Stone and feeling *funky*
<rlameiro> scott-work: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7gvTeI6-bms
<scott-work> LOL, i had no idea dtchen was crimsun !
<astraljava> irv_: Unlikely, isn't that restricted to Windows platforms?
<rlameiro> astraljava: well, ther is mono
<astraljava> rlameiro: But doesn't it run C# binaries? Or am I totally mistaken?
<rlameiro> astraljava: actually i dont know.... maybe just c#....
<astraljava> irv_: Okay, I'll take that back. According to http://www.mono-project.com/Language_BASIC, there is now support for visual basic .net in mono.
<irv_> astraljava: ha ha
<rlameiro> astraljava: http://www.mono-project.com/Language_BASIC
<irv_> astraljava: it was more of a joke, but sweet.
<irv_> :p
<rlameiro> but isnt VB a BAD lang ;P
<astraljava> irv_: Just come up with a cool idea for an application, and we'll welcome it with open arms. :)
<rlameiro> in python :D
<andyzweb> mono is an implementation of the Common Language Infrastructure
<astraljava> rlameiro: Haven't researched it at all during its .Net times, might have evolved quite a bit.
<andyzweb> so any language that compiles to the Common Intermediate Language bytecode should run in mono
<astraljava> andyzweb: I don't know, the page mentioned above seems to indicate a separate compiler for VB is needed after all. But /me is willing to admit he knows next to nothing about mono overall... :)
<andyzweb> astraljava: Mono is not too bad Think of it as Java with better syntax but less security or cross platform compatibility (at this point anyway)
<andyzweb> Bye the way I am going to install UbuntuStudio 10.04 on my macbook pro today/tomorrow. Is there somewhere I should report my results?
<astraljava> ubuntustudio-users@lists.ubuntu.com? ubuntuforums.org in Ubuntu Studio section?
<scott-work> i did a clean install of ubuntu studio 10.04 yesterday on an i386, but i haven't really used it yet
<scott-work> i'm hoping to use this machine for a presentation and then give the computer away to one person at the presentation!
<scott-work> just the comptuer, which was a $70 p4, 2.8 ghz + $30 1gig memory
<astraljava> scott-work: Cool. Do you also provide personal support for that? :)
<scott-work> astraljava: in this case, yes
<astraljava> scott-work: My hat's off to ya. :)
<scott-work> but i have also told several people at work that if they want to use an old machine to install studio I will make sure they get it up and running
<scott-work> and show them how to use it for rudimentary recording
<astraljava> That's nice.
<astraljava> I watched a presentation of setting up a LoCo during the latest UOW, and started contemplating about doing so here. It's a 120,000+ town after all, and a huge proportion of students, so might actually get lucky.
<scott-work> this would be a first meeting of what might be a LoCo
<astraljava> Oh cool. Where do you live btw.?
<scott-work> two of the people actually have Ubuntu and use it, probably the other four or five will eventually use ubuntu studio as their are hobbyist musicians
<scott-work> i live in montgomery, texas, usa
<astraljava> Ok.
<scott-work> historic old town, not many people, but i work in Conroe which is just north of Houston
<scott-work> and Houston is huge
<scott-work> apparently Conroe had a population of 55,429 in 2008
<astraljava> Right. Actually I'm some 20 ml. from the center of the town, the village I live in only has some 5k or so.
<scott-work> Houston has their own LoCo but they tend to meet on the south side of town, so i'm hoping to get a group of friends together, announce it on the LoCo mailing list and pull from the group that do not regularly attend because of the meeting location
<astraljava> Yeah. I bet there are users on the north side of that huge metro.
<scott-work> i really don't want to lead a LoCo though, I've already got too much going on already
<scott-work> although if it was based in Montgomery it would be the MoCoLoCo ;)
<astraljava> :D
<quadrispro> hello folks
<astraljava> Hi.
<quadrispro> scott-work, finally I've decided to try to become DD :)
<astraljava> Nice. :)
<scott-work> quadrispro: what is a DD?
<astraljava> Debian Developer.
<scott-work> that's what I thought it meant
<scott-work> but i thought you already were one quadrispro
<scott-work> or were you only part of the Debian Multimedia team?
<quadrispro> scott-work, eh no, I am debian maintainer
<scott-work> either way, awesome it is!
<quadrispro> and part of Debian Multimedia team
<quadrispro> yep, some other italian DDs have convinced me
<scott-work> good for you :)
<scott-work> i wish i had more time to devote to packaging
<astraljava> ...and for us as well. :D
<quadrispro> :)
<quadrispro> scott-work, now we (me and another Deb-Multimedia guy, Jaromir Mikes) are working hard on LV2 related stuff
<quadrispro> plugins, synth, hosts etc
<scott-work> that is really cool as well :)
<quadrispro> so please, instead of dputting packages to REVU, get in touch with me
<astraljava> quadrispro: Actually I've been meaning to start developing for Debian as well, so maybe we could work together if I'm of any assistance?
<quadrispro> we hope to give maverick all the most popular LV2 tools
<quadrispro> astraljava, of course
<quadrispro> yes
<astraljava> I just need to move at the end of this month, after that I'll have much more time for these kind of hobbies.
<astraljava> But am already following debian-multimedia team on mailing list and IRC.
<quadrispro> cool, do you already have an account on alioth?
<astraljava> Actually already filed a couple of ITPs a while back, but haven't got time for them since we started building the house.
<astraljava> quadrispro: No, not yet.
<scott-work> quadrispro: that is incredibly awesome that you (and Debian Multimedia) are helping out
<astraljava> I think so too. That's why I want to give my thanks by contributing back.
<quadrispro> astraljava, it may be a good first step, after subscribing on alioth please send us a short presentation
<quadrispro> and tell about your ITP, sure you'll find some good sponsor
<astraljava> quadrispro: Sure I will do that. Might go until June, but I'll definitely be on that, thanks!
<quadrispro> scott-work, we are in the same family :)
<scott-work> that's funny you say that because I'm working on a blog post that says the same thing, but in a Sly way
<quadrispro> ehehe
<quadrispro> astraljava, you're welcome!
<quadrispro> guys, leaving right now for a beer
<quadrispro> see you later!
<scott-work> bye :)
<astraljava> Later. :)
<rlameiro> scott-work: what do you think of a RSVP thing?
<scott-work> rlameiro: for the meeting calendar?
<rlameiro> for the meeting, to have an idea of who will come or not
<rlameiro> something like that
<rlameiro> scott-work: http://wordpress.org/support/topic/376735 http://drupal.org/project/rsvp
<astraljava> For a non-mandatory meeting, I don't see a point. However, I do think that there ought to be mandatory meetings too, especially when drawing the lines of where the distro is bound to be headed.
<rlameiro> yeap, but fisrt the team needs to be defined to have a mandatory meeting
<rlameiro> but i agree with you astraljava 
<astraljava> rlameiro: You have a point there, _if_ there is to be a strict team structure.
<rlameiro> astraljava: well, at least a minimum core team
<astraljava> rlameiro: That is true.
<scott-work> ah, rlameiro left already
#ubuntustudio-devel 2010-05-14
<rlameiro> scott-work: we really need to tackle the network bug ASAP
<scott-work> rlameiro: i might be wrong but i don't think it's in our hands right now
<rlameiro> I just helped now a fellow teacher in the music school to install the network
<rlameiro> the cd thing doesnt works easyly
<scott-work> and those with the clout to persuade those responsible are at the UDS probably
<rlameiro> I needed to comment the lines from the internet to install it, and then i only installed a package at a time....
<rlameiro> definitively not easy to make as a first user or tech unaware...
 * rlameiro remebers now he forgot to uncomment the apt-sources list.... 
<scott-work> in the bug Milan mentioned the core devs being responsible and it is assigned to a "lucid - updates" milestone
<scott-work> i agree it's not friendly for the first time user, but hopefully from this release forward we shouldn't see this problem again
<scott-work> but i also notice that it has an importance of "high" so hopefully the bug will be addressed shortly after they begin to work on the lucid updates
<rlameiro> scott-work: well, maybe is the best place to push for it :D
<scott-work> apparently "ubuntu desktop" is the maintainer for "gnome-system-tools" and I'm not sure whom within that group is directly responsible for this application
<scott-work> we would also need to directly talk with The.Muso, juss.i or per.sia while they are at UDS
<scott-work> i wouldn't expect lucid updates to begin in earnest until after the UDS
<scott-work> so i would suggest we wait until after the UDS to try to push this effort
<scott-work> but you should do what you feel is appropriate
<rlameiro> well, i hope it is possible to respin the isos...
<rlameiro> scott-work: well, we must wait, but as this is a LTS, the ISO needs to be as stable and Bug free as possible, hence my concern
<scott-work> rlameiro: you are correct that this would be an extreme problem with a new install for an uninitiated user
<scott-work> i cannot comment on respinning the ISO, i will defer to others about the potential for this
<scott-work> rlameiro: but would you be willing to create a wiki page about correcting the problem and email the mailing list and post on the forums about it?
<rlameiro> the problem here, is that there is no other solution, you do need to have it working, because all the other possible solutions would need networking
<rlameiro> scott-work: i would, but i dont know how to fix it...
<scott-work> i thought you had installed network manager from the disc and used it instead?
<scott-work> it is also possible to edit /etc/network/interfaces by hand
<scott-work> in the bug Milan also suggested "install nm-applet (network-manager-gnome) package, and maybe run it using 'nm-applet' "
<astraljava> Before NetworkManager has been measured again, I'd suggest editing /etc/network/interfaces by hand. It's not _that_ hard. :)
<rlameiro> oh, a work around, well i could try to do it but at the moment i am a little bit busy finishing my final works for the Uni
<rlameiro> astraljava: yea, true, i did that, but you need a wired network.... configuring wireless like that is no easy task
<scott-work> this really makes me wonder about our user's hardware (i.e. desktop or laptop) and how their connecting to the internet
 * scott-work suspects more and more users are using laptops (with firewire audio) and wireless for internet
<rlameiro> well, the teacher i just helped was using a laptop
<rlameiro> and he uses a 3G connection device(usb) one, so he really needs the network manager
<astraljava> Yeah, I hate it when you can't get it working with plain wvdial or something.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2010-05-15
<rlameiro> does anyone have some audio related news from the UDS??? please share :D
<astraljava> I think only Jussi was there of this team, so probably not too many things related to us happened.
<astraljava> Oh wait, Luke was there too?
<astraljava> And Dan. Man, I'm out of my mind. :D
<astraljava> But we should definitely get this derivate more up there, a couple of years ago there was members supported to UDS from this team, I think none this time.
<rlameiro> yea, it would be nice :D
#ubuntustudio-devel 2010-05-16
<ScottL> hi troy_s 
<troy_s> Greets ScottL
<ScottL> someone posted a good, simple way to install network manager from an Ubuntu Studio disc   http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1479788
<jussi> astraljava: we had Dan, Luke and myself
<ckontros> Because of that damn Intel bug, I gotta run Debian-testing on the lappy. :(
<astraljava> Not too bad a choice, IMHO. :)
<ckontros> Yeah. Still a pain. I do like the ubuntu polish. ;)
<ckontros> jussi: Around?
<ckontros> jussi: Hit me up in PM when you can.
<TheMuso> ScottL: Basically we hope to have pulseaudio step asside for jack2 when jack2 wants to use a sound card, hopefully for Maverick. I don't know what else there is to say really. :)
<TheMuso> Oh yeah, I am awake as I am not really tired from my flight, as I slept on the last leg when I probably shoudln't have.
<astraljava> TheMuso: Does that mean you'll be able to attend to the meeting?
<TheMuso> astraljava: no
<TheMuso> I hope I can lie down and go to sleep in a little while.
<astraljava> TheMuso: Gotcha.
<TheMuso> astraljava: And if you didn't know, I have resigned from the project.
<TheMuso> So even if I was around, I wouldn't be attending the meeting.
<astraljava> TheMuso: Yeah, now I recall.
<ScottL> TheMuso, thanks!
<TheMuso> ScottL: np
<ScottL> TheMuso, astraljava mentioned several ubuntu studio members going to a UDS, has that happened in the past?
<TheMuso> ScottL: Yes it has.
<ScottL> TheMuso, was it quite beneficial?
<TheMuso> ScottL: To an extent.
<irv_> what time is the meeting
<ScottL> irv_, in about two hours
<ScottL> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/Meetings/2010May16
<rlameiro> ScottL: 2 hours from now?
<ScottL> rlameiro, i believe so
<rlameiro> ok, because i am always confused with the daytime savings in here
<ScottL> i believe it is 17:00 UTC right now (approximately)
<rlameiro> in theory i am on UTC, but now we are at summer time
<rlameiro> yea, i think so
<rlameiro> ScottL: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntustudio/+bug/580744
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 580744 in ubuntustudio "Broadcom BCM57780 Enet broken in Lucid Studio (dup-of: 570828)" [Undecided,New]
<rlameiro> and they start to appear
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 570828 in gnome-system-tools "gnome-network-admin on UbuntuStudio doesnt allow to configure either wired networks or wireless" [High,Triaged]
<rlameiro> i marked it as a duplicate
<ScottL> yeah, i saw that, good job
<ScottL> i was going to link this rudimentary howto to the bug later   http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1479788
<rlameiro> well, rudimentary it is :D
<rlameiro> the only problem is that i am swamped until, at least, 16 June
<ScottL> well, i remember that some people have had trouble accessing the ISO as a repo and thought this should work for everyone :)
<rlameiro> If i had time i would do a proper how to, or even make a script that people could copy to a text file and run it and it would do that for them...
<rlameiro> ScottL: yeah, that is one of the problems...
<rlameiro> to do that i would need to install a new ubuntu from scratch and documment the process
<rlameiro> well, going out and do some stuff out the house, i will be here on time :D
<rlameiro> looking forward for the meeting
<andyzweb> meeting here in a half an hour?
<astraljava> andyzweb: yep
<rlameiro> well, 10 minutes to go :D
<scott-upstairs> hello all, are we ready for the meeting? :)
<scott-upstairs> the agenda is here -> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/Meetings/2010May16
<scott-upstairs> i'll give a minute or two to make sure people are here
<rlameiro> quadrispro left ... :(
<astraljava> o/
<crimsun> (present)
<rlameiro> present
<scott-upstairs> who else is here for the meeting?
<rlameiro> stochastic: ping
<rlameiro> crimsun: congrats for the interview :D
<scott-upstairs> looks like rlameiro , astraljava and crimsun      fewer than I had hoped but more than it could have been :)
<scott-upstairs> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/Meetings/2010May16   is the agenda
<scott-upstairs> anyone have anything to amend to it?
<rlameiro> i dont have
<astraljava> Nothing from me.
<scott-upstairs> okay, first thing is LV2:  quadripro told me two days ago that they are making good progress, lv2rack and zynjacu are already in debian new
<scott-upstairs> he also mentioned that he has another person who is quite gifted with packaging that is assisting him
<rlameiro> thas great
<rlameiro> if it is on debian is only a matter of syncing it isnt it?
<scott-upstairs> if the package is in debian and not in ubuntu we will autosync it at the beginning of every release cycle
<astraljava> rlameiro: Yes, until Debian import freeze.
<scott-upstairs> okay, moving on then
<scott-upstairs> JACK2 and Pulse Audio:
<scott-upstairs> early The.Muso said that they are hopeful that this will be completed by the end of Maverick
<scott-upstairs> granted he didn't go into too many specifics, just that they were working on it
<scott-upstairs> crimsun, do you have anything you would like to add?
<scott-upstairs> if we can get this complete it would alleviate one of our users biggest complaints :)
<crimsun> Luke and I spoke briefly at UDS-M about it; in Debian multimedia it currently takes over the existing JACK (v1) packaging, but that isn't a big deal infrastructure-wise.
<crimsun> More interesting are a couple points, the first of which is probably more important:
<crimsun> 1) With the introduction in Lucid of Pulse's reliance on udev (well, ConsoleKit and udev acl) for @audio permissions, it is vital that users are *not* added to @audio if PulseAudio is used.
<crimsun> 2) Connor Curran may have resources this cycle to investigate one-click enablement of JACK from indicator-sound.
<scott-upstairs> wow, #2 is sounds incredible!
<scott-upstairs> but on #1, how will -rt work if the user is not part of the audio group, crimsun?
<crimsun> scott-upstairs: the active seat, in ConsoleKit terms, already is granted access to /dev/snd/*
<crimsun> example:
<crimsun> getfacl: Removing leading '/' from absolute path names
<crimsun> # file: dev/snd/controlC0
<crimsun> # owner: root
<crimsun> # group: audio
<crimsun> user::rw-
<crimsun> user:crimsun:rw-
<crimsun> group::rw-
<crimsun> mask::rw-
<crimsun> other::---
<crimsun> getent group audio                                            
<crimsun> audio:x:29:pulse
<crimsun> i.e., if you're at the keyboard, you'e the active seat, so you have access to @audio
<crimsun> (note how my user is not in the audio group)
<scott-upstairs> oh, so it's by association   (associative property x=y and y=z therefore x=z, sort of)   clever, clever
<rlameiro> crimsun:how will it work  with plug in devices, like firewire and usb?
<scott-upstairs> but i noticed when checking users on my lucid install that i am in the audio group
<crimsun> scott-upstairs: yeah, you want to remove those users from @audio if you plan to have on-the-fly user-switching in GNOME
<crimsun> notably:
<crimsun> gnome-system-tools (2.29.91-0ubuntu2) lucid; urgency=low
<crimsun>   * debian/patches/26_user_profiles_conf.patch:
<crimsun>     - Don't add users to the audio group. This is consistent with
<crimsun>       user-setup and fixes an issue with sound device permissions when
<crimsun>       switching between users. Thanks to Igor Wojnicki for spotting
<crimsun>       this (LP: #433654)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 433654 in gnome-system-tools "[Karmic]&[Lucid] Only one user has sound; no hw shows in Sound Preferences" [Medium,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/433654
<crimsun> (sorry for spamming :-) )
<scott-upstairs> lol
<crimsun> rlameiro: it's transparent, presuming the correct permissions are assigned in the udev rule
<crimsun> rlameiro: i.e., they should contain to have the devices readable & writeable to @audio
<crimsun> arg, s/contain/continue/
<crimsun> rlameiro: i.e., no impact
<scott-upstairs> anything else anyone wants to add?
<andyzweb> in general or on that topic?
<scott-upstairs> okay, moving on to the network manager bug   https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/gnome-system-tools/+bug/570828
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 570828 in gnome-system-tools "gnome-network-admin on UbuntuStudio doesnt allow to configure either wired networks or wireless" [High,Triaged]
<scott-upstairs> andyzweb, whichever, go ahead
<andyzweb> nvm, continue
<scott-upstairs> okay, but please mention though
<scott-upstairs> s/mention/mention it
<scott-upstairs> the network bug is the other big complaint from users
<scott-upstairs> thanks to rlameiro for filing the bug
<rlameiro> np
<scott-upstairs> it has been assigned to lucid-update, does anyone know how soon we might see some progress on this?
<rlameiro> we need someone to know if a iso respinn can be done for this, since this is a LTS version and a lot of people rely on LTS
<astraljava> Won't the discs be respun for 10.04.01?
<rlameiro> scott-upstairs: its not assigned to anyone, the milestone is lucid updates
<crimsun> is Ubuntu Studio 10.04 actually LTS?
<rlameiro> well, i dont know, maybe we dont have lts...
<astraljava> What do the release notes say?
<scott-upstairs> astraljava, i would assume the ISO would be respun for 10.04.01
<crimsun> I think at this point it may be a lost cause; we definitely want it to get into lucid-proposed, however
<scott-upstairs> crimsun, persia was pointing out that we don't *have* to support an LTS version
<crimsun> right, since US is a community project, but that in effect means we have to :-)
<astraljava> Well there's no mention in the release notes, so I suppose it is not an LTS. :)
<rlameiro> well, there is something that was bothering me about this
<scott-upstairs> rlameiro, which part bothers you?
<rlameiro> did someone got notified on that change on the package? is there some system that warn flavours on changes made on the vanilla version?
<rlameiro> since we depend on that package and ubuntu deprecated it in favour of nm-applet...
<scott-upstairs> that's were having core developers on the studio team really helps :/
<rlameiro> well, how i see it, to correct it, we will force all the other versions onto a regression
<rlameiro> so, we have 2 options, either test and try network manager
<scott-upstairs> well, whether we consider lucid an LTS i imagine the discs will be respun for 10.04.01 and therefore we need to get it into lucid-proposed as crimsun mentioned
<rlameiro> or make a regression
<scott-upstairs> well, perhaps we should defer this until persia can offer some insights as well and perhaps some other disucssions with luke as well
<rlameiro> k then
<scott-upstairs> but testing network manager would also be a good thing to accomplish, we just need people
<scott-upstairs> rlameiro, would you be able to do it?
<rlameiro> i use network manager
<rlameiro> i just dont know how to test it
<scott-upstairs> okay, we can work on that part later :)   we just need to get more people to help us test then
<astraljava> Make it public on ubuntu-studio-users@?
<scott-upstairs> certainly, and post in ubuntu forums / ubuntu studio
<scott-upstairs> it was suggested to work with upstream as well if we test and find it lacking
<scott-upstairs> moving on, ubuntustudio-controls update and redesign
<scott-upstairs> since jack is now handling rtpri and memlock in /etc/security/limits.d/audio.conf  we need to update -controls to stop putting it into /etc/security/limits.conf
<scott-upstairs> and rlameiro has some suggestion as far as a redesign as well
<rlameiro> yeah, but with the new things comming, maybe it needs another rethink
<scott-upstairs> we need to at least update it to stop adding "@audio rtprio xx" and "@audio memelock xx" though
<scott-upstairs> does anyone have any other thoughts, suggestions, complaints about it?
<rlameiro> well, that seems fairly easy to do, just removing the code from it
<scott-upstairs> what about removing the "nice" setting?  it has been argued that this doesn't help with -rt audio anyway
<rlameiro> the nice thing... i really dont know about that, maybe crimsun can help on this
<crimsun> right, I don't think renicing gains us anything
<rlameiro> so take it away is the way to go
<rlameiro> so sttudio controls will be only to enable raw1394
<scott-upstairs> are there anything else that users routinely do after installation that we might add here also?
<scott-upstairs> like installing 'ubuntu-restricted-extras"
<scott-upstairs> or enabling the ubuntu studio ppa for other available kernels?
<rlameiro> well adding the ppa is a good idea
<astraljava> I think it would only be stuff that doesn't have relatively easy GUI at the moment.
<crimsun> I think it'd be a very good idea to partition the ppa, namely, we should make a habit of documenting a stable ppa vice a development ppa.
<astraljava> So -1 for installing ubuntu-restricted-extras.
<rlameiro> crimsun: +1 to the 2 different ppas
<crimsun> in fact, anything that belongs in the stable ppa we should probably get into Debian and Ubuntu first as much as possible
<rlameiro> so the US controls only goes for the stable things
<rlameiro> well, kernel is not easy to push AFAIK
<scott-upstairs> astraljava, re: easy GUI, my thought would be to consider putting anything that a user routinely does after installation to get his box set up into -controls
<crimsun> right, but those sorts of things can be expected to sit in a ppa.
<scott-upstairs> astraljava, but only if it's worth it (not for just one additional installation or setting)
<rlameiro> What do you think about the script that is on the Arch Linux wiki?
<rlameiro> it search for lots of things
<astraljava> scott-upstairs: Yeah, but the problem is that you're trying to solve the problem that some other app already solves, and more maturely.
<scott-upstairs> astraljava, true :)
<rlameiro> hdd setups, hpet clocks
<scott-upstairs> rlameiro, i don't know much about that rtirq script
<rlameiro> its not rtirq
<scott-upstairs> lol, that proves how much i know :) 
<rlameiro> its a perl script that test the configurations of your system, rtirq tries to alocate the irq in a way the rt kernel can use the devices more efficiently
<scott-upstairs> i'll have to look at that script then, probably tomorrow evening then
<rlameiro> http://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Pro_Audio
<astraljava> Maybe that should be made into a blueprint or something, at least a wiki item where devs can give test reports and other suggestions on how it should be implemented on US. I doubt that it would be possible to integrate it straight away.
<scott-upstairs> great idea astraljava , can either you or rlameiro make it happen?
<astraljava> rlameiro: Do you want that one?
<rlameiro> well, i dont know any perl, just python..
<astraljava> rlameiro: No need to be able to tweak it, just create the wiki page or something?
<rlameiro> ok
<rlameiro> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/ControlsRedesign
<scott-upstairs> good, you work fast rlameiro ;)
<rlameiro> :D
<scott-upstairs> the ppa question of -controls actually ties into the next topic which is possibily maintaining our own backports ppa
<rlameiro> i will make a chapter for a system tester script then
<scott-upstairs> thanks
<scott-upstairs> john dong basically said that the backports team is stretched pretty thin usually and suggested we maintain our own backports ppa
<scott-upstairs> especially for a LTS version (if we have one)
<rlameiro> i can test backports
<rlameiro> i will have a VM with a LTS version for that
<rlameiro> or a partition for kernel and hardcore software testing
<astraljava> I'm interested in working with backports, and possibly even integrating into the team in the future. So a big fat +1 for backports PPA. :D
<scott-upstairs> i like backports as well :)
<scott-upstairs> i asked jdong about a member from our team being included on their team, he wasn't reticent as much as he demured from the subject at this time
<scott-upstairs> i think his concern was quality and effectiveness
<astraljava> Well yeah, I assume they want to see a proven track record for these things.
<scott-upstairs> he wants someone who does a quality job and actually *does* the job, not just someone who wants to be on another team
<scott-upstairs> but if we maintain the backports ppa this may be a vector into it
<astraljava> Absolutely understood.
<rlameiro> only one thing about it
<rlameiro> What is qualified for backport?
<rlameiro> any app? just on the main repo?
<scott-upstairs> rlameiro, are you asking about ubuntu's policy or asking if we can slip something else into *our* ppa?
<rlameiro> no, just iff we can backport any software we use on ubuntustudio
<rlameiro> for instance a new jack
<rlameiro> or a new ardour
<crimsun> I'd argue that we consider even further partitioning of the ppa in that case.
<scott-upstairs> we need to test it first, but i think any software in the archives is acceptable to backport
<rlameiro> ok, understood
<scott-upstairs> crimsun, are you saying that because of libraries?
<crimsun> scott-upstairs: yeah
<scott-upstairs> rlameiro, weird things can happen if we start introducing something like JACK2 into lucid via backports
<scott-upstairs> detrate, do you have anything to say about the website update?
<astraljava> Can a team have several PPAs, or just the one?
<rlameiro> so we can conclude we need to make various ppa with specific functions and teams
<crimsun> astraljava: as segmented as desired
<astraljava> crimsun: Okay, I need to read about that further. At the moment I have no idea how it works. :)
<scott-upstairs> moving on:  we are also updating the website, detrate is helping us
<scott-upstairs> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/TaskWebRevamp  is the list that i forwarded to detrate (who has someone else helping him)
<scott-upstairs> please feel free to amend and update it
<scott-upstairs> it would appear that the new website will probably be based on word press
<astraljava> Surely there's a deadline for the updates? I mean, they must have a feature freeze at some point.
<scott-upstairs> astraljava, do you mean for the website?
<astraljava> No objections towards wordpress.
<astraljava> scott-upstairs: Yes.
<rlameiro> i dont like the facebook think so much, but it could work :D
<scott-upstairs> well, i don't think the feature freeze will have any impact on updating the website since it isn't actually part of the ubuntu development process
<rlameiro> alse there is already a !ubuntustudio group on identi.ca, maybe we can send updates to the subscribers of the group
<scott-upstairs> i was hoping to have detrate here to discuss current status and a generalized time table, but oh well
<scott-upstairs> does anyone have anything else to add about the website update?  anyone want to particpate in it?
<scott-upstairs> okay, moving on:  the next one is a good one,  reducing the delta between ubuntu packages and debian packages
<scott-upstairs> http://qa.ubuntuwire.com/multidistrotools/ubuntustudio.html
<scott-upstairs> this provides a list of package that are in both ubuntu studio and debian and it categorizes them
<scott-upstairs> we should focus on the following:  http://qa.ubuntuwire.com/multidistrotools/ubuntustudio.html#sameversionbutlocalinB
<scott-upstairs> and http://qa.ubuntuwire.com/multidistrotools/ubuntustudio.html#outdatedandlocalinB
<scott-upstairs> these are packages with local changes, i.e. ubuntu specific
<astraljava> scott-upstairs: Sorry, was afk for a while. If not tied to distro release dates, then no feature freeze for the website, you're right. Moving on now. :)
<scott-upstairs> we should evaluate these packages and see if the ubuntu specific changes are: 1) necessary  and 2) can be pushed back "upstream" to debian to be incorporate into their pacakges
<astraljava> I can start tracking this, like already discussed with quadrispro, I'm interested in working together with debian-multimedia, so I'd think this falls under that umbrella.
<scott-upstairs> eliminating ubuntu specific changes allows us to request a sync from debian instead of hand packaging the changes
<scott-upstairs> fantastic astraljava , i would also like to help with this as well
<astraljava> Ok.
<scott-upstairs> good, moving on:  testing procedures
<scott-upstairs> stochastic, are you here?
<scott-upstairs> i was hoping that since eric is the head of the ubuntustudio-testers group in launchpad that he would help with this
<scott-upstairs> but my thoughts were that if we *really* want more feedback from users then we need to codify our expectations
<astraljava> Shows how out I am of this game, I didn't even know about such a team in LP. :)
<rlameiro> well i can do iso testing
<scott-upstairs> we should establish the testing that we would like done, we should document it well, and then we should ask for help :)
<rlameiro> but we do need some procedures
<scott-upstairs> rlameiro, thank you, but i was hoping a small team could develop those procedures :)
<scott-upstairs> basically, we have nothing right now, so something is better than that :)
<scott-upstairs> anyone want a crack at it? or shall I wait and see about stochastic ?
<rlameiro> well, there are some studio esting procedures made by ckontros somewhere
<scott-upstairs> i have all the links i could previously find somewhere convienient if you would like me to forward them to rlameiro 
<scott-upstairs> it sounds like you may be interested in helping?  :)
<astraljava> Is there a wiki page for this?
<scott-upstairs> astraljava, there are several, but none really finished or completed
<rlameiro> well i am on the testing team (i joined myself...) so i can try to help on that, but only after finishing my college related things
<astraljava> Okay, so we need to unify them together and work on that to create the policy.
<scott-upstairs> certainly, rlameiro
<scott-upstairs> my thought was that a small group should get together and discuss this, agree to which itesm should be tested beyond installation of ISO
<scott-upstairs> for example, run jack, record something in ardour
<rlameiro> yeah
<scott-upstairs> just come up with the bullet points of *what* should be tested, the rest is downhill (easy)
<rlameiro> and try to have a core team that can test diffrent situations
<rlameiro> like firewire, usb pci cards
<rlameiro> laptop/desktop
<rlameiro> etc
<rlameiro> i will try to ping stochastic on that
<scott-upstairs> but once it's documented i think we might see more support from users as well :)   tell them *specifically* what to do to test
<rlameiro> and maybe holstein 
<scott-upstairs> i know the opensourcemusicians would love to help :)
<scott-upstairs> once it's documented, that is
<rlameiro> ok
<scott-upstairs> rlameiro, so you are going to work with stochastic on this?  astraljava, do you want to help as well?
<rlameiro> i can get to it with stochastic if he is interested in it
<astraljava> scott-upstairs: Absolutely.
<scott-upstairs> rlameiro, if he isn't i will help as well
<scott-upstairs> that is fantastic!
<scott-upstairs> this ties into the last topic:   where to put documentation?  wiki.ubuntu.com or help.ubuntu.com
<scott-upstairs> hi _guitarman_ 
<_guitarman_> hi scott-upstairs 
<scott-upstairs> does anyone have particular thoughts about wiki vs. help?
<rlameiro> finally _guitarman_ 
<rlameiro> _guitarman_: is a good candidate for a testing team
<astraljava> I don't have an informed opinion, sorry.
<rlameiro> he plays alot in it
<rlameiro> sorry for the regression scott-upstairs 
<scott-upstairs> right now there seems to be a mish mash between the two
<_guitarman_> rlameiro: we can talk about that later
<rlameiro> yeap
<scott-upstairs> no problem rlameiro :)
<scott-upstairs> my thoughts are that we try to use help.ubuntu.com for the user facing documentation, i.e. the howtos, etc
<rlameiro> about the next topic i think a good idea to diferentiate wiki from help
<scott-upstairs> the wiki.ubuntu.com is what developers and contributors work on to help development
<rlameiro> and make wiki more dev centric and help more community
<scott-upstairs> absolutely :)
<astraljava> Sounds good to me.
<scott-upstairs> it wouldn't hurt to deprecate the ubuntustudio page on  wiki.ubuntu.com and put up an index for our stuff then
<astraljava> Please elaborate.
<scott-upstairs> 'tis a nice page, i would move it somewhere and link to it, not delete it :)
<scott-upstairs> astraljava, right now it has things like team members, how to contact the team, this is not very "development" like
<astraljava> scott-upstairs: Okay, understood.
<scott-upstairs> that information can be moved to the help.ubuntu.com as required
<scott-upstairs> okay :)
<rlameiro> well i do have some things to trough in
<scott-upstairs> yes?
<scott-upstairs> and i think astraljava had something as well
<rlameiro> well the main topic is the audience and the meaning of ubuntustudio
<rlameiro> who? why? where? are very important questions
 * scott-upstairs nods his head
<_guitarman_> you also have ubuntustudio.com
<rlameiro> for instance why do we need a media distro and for whom
<rlameiro> and find a "user base" and go for it 
<_guitarman_> as an end user its always been a bit confusing having so many places to go
<_guitarman_> not knowing which is the right place etc.
<rlameiro> i had an idea of what can be done, but people could find this intruding
<astraljava> rlameiro: Be brave. :)
<scott-upstairs> _guitarman_, that is a *very* good point, we shall have to address it as well
<rlameiro> make a feedback software that would fireup on the first install, maybe atacched to a launchpad id (to avoid duplicates)
<rlameiro> and make a kind of poll
<_guitarman_> scott-upstairs: its my belief most people are going to be starting on the ubuntustudio.com web site
<scott-upstairs> _guitarman_, that's good information, thanks!
<_guitarman_> scott-upstairs: so if you want to funnel them in appropriately, you should have a help tab, and a developer tab
<_guitarman_> and on that is how you can direct traffic appropriately
<scott-upstairs> absolutely :)
<rlameiro> _guitarman_: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/TaskWebRevamp look and see what can be improved
 * _guitarman_ isn't sure if he's being a pest or not
<scott-upstairs> _guitarman_,  you are offering good opinions and advice, not being a pest :)
<_guitarman_> rlameiro: ah thanks
<astraljava> Currently we have links to both wiki.u.c and help.u.c on the website, but perhaps clarifying what they mean is in order.
<scott-upstairs> we currently have a user base, but i don't think anyone could accurate define it well
<rlameiro> well that is the idea of this software
<rlameiro> you could do a feedback app that would send usefull info about the usage
<rlameiro> for instance, it could send the hardwae the people use, what for(audio video or 3d/2d
<_guitarman_> astraljava: i would venture to say that the user will be confused with a redirect - if there is a way to make it appear that they are still on the ubuntustudio website that would be less confusing even if you are bringing in content from the other sites. if this makes sense
<scott-upstairs> that does make sense _guitarman_ 
<astraljava> _guitarman_: Noted. Don't know how it's possible, but something to think about.
<scott-upstairs> i'm not sure if it's possible :/  we can ask detrate for his input though
<rlameiro> maybe using a iframe with the link
<scott-upstairs> rlameiro, if we did go the 'feedback app' route it would take time to get through REVU though
<_guitarman_> the user needs a 1 stop shop, ideally it would all be on the ubuntustudio web site...
<_guitarman_> if your goal is to get less developer types and hacker types, then they don't really care about anything but ubuntustudio.com
<_guitarman_> what i mean is - if you want to widen the audience, you have to deliver something like a super tasty potato chip... the bag has to look good, and the contents have to be refined and just the right stuff.
<_guitarman_> anyways - you get the idea i imagine and i'll just listen in for a bit
<astraljava> _guitarman_: I'm getting the feel that help.u.c would be integrated to us.org, _not_ wiki.u.c/us though. That might make perfect sense, actually.
<rlameiro> _guitarman_: you are right, i never liked the ubunsutstudio website because of that
<astraljava> scott-upstairs: I hear ya regarding the feedback app. It takes time to design and spec such an app, and getting it in before feature freeze might prove out to be difficult.
<astraljava> Perhaps for Maverick+1?
<rlameiro> astraljava: maybe there is a way to parse the help.u,com webpage and use it as a "native look" inside ubuntustudio.org
<astraljava> rlameiro: _guitarman_: Please add this as a feature to the TaskWebRevamp page, so detrate et al. can design it in.
<rlameiro> well the feedback app has very deep implications, that go into the ubuntu core 
<scott-upstairs> i had planned on discussing audience in the next meeting so i'm not as prepared as i had hoped
<scott-upstairs> but we obviously need to understand more about our audience's wants and needs
<rlameiro> scott-upstairs: np, but as astraljava mentioned, this stuff takes time
<scott-upstairs> i had thought that an online survey would help and had started developing questions for it
<rlameiro> so we need to start ASAP to get it on Maverick+1
<scott-upstairs> we could post the link in the -users mailing list, the forums and the irc channel
<rlameiro> scott-upstairs: online survey will help for the immediate time
<scott-upstairs> but i fear that most users are somewhat apathetic to helping and we may need another vector to gather information
<rlameiro> but i always tought that it is a missing piece on the ubuntu sphere
<astraljava> I'm just thinking about popcon, and its problems in getting users reveal their habits and other "sensitive" information.
<rlameiro> maybe it is purposed, so i am afraid it will be dismissed very hard
<scott-upstairs> "popcorn" astraljava ?
<astraljava> scott-upstairs: No, popcon.ubuntu.com. :)
<astraljava> There's an app that gathers information regarding packages installed etc.
<astraljava> But it has to be turned on, as turning it on by default is considered a privacy violation.
<scott-upstairs> oh, bloody fantastic!  i didn't know that existed till fifteen seconds ago
<rlameiro> well, i dont meant to do packages
<rlameiro> I tought more on a survey like thing
<scott-upstairs> i was hoping to understand user's workflows as well
<astraljava> rlameiro: I understand, but it might be perceived as the same thing.
<rlameiro> astraljava: yeap, i know it is really sensitive stuff
<scott-upstairs> but it does become important for us to understand what the users want/need in order to provide it to them
<astraljava> But yeah, as a totally volunteered "if you like, please take part in this survey" kind of app.
<rlameiro> astraljava: that was the idea
<rlameiro> the app show on the startup, or maybe after 10 reboots
<astraljava> scott-upstairs: Forums have polls, don't they?
 * rlameiro 10 reboots seems better
<scott-upstairs> i think ubuntu forums has polls
<rlameiro> well, maybe we will need a meeting just for this matter :D
<astraljava> rlameiro: There is the way to make those lightbulbs appear in the panel, that might work as an information pop-up as well.
<rlameiro> astraljava: great idea
<astraljava> rlameiro: True, but let's not wait too long for that.
<holstein> rlameiro: sorry i missed the meeting :/
<holstein> i had a session
<holstein> and im off to a gig now :)
<rlameiro> he he
<scott-upstairs> hi holstein , bye holstein !
<rlameiro> lol
<holstein> next time
<scott-upstairs> astraljava, didn't you have something else you wanted to mention?
<astraljava> scott-upstairs: Hmm... I don't know, did I? :)
<astraljava> scott-upstairs: Any idea what it was referring to?
 * astraljava had a tough day at the construction... :)
<scott-upstairs> sorry, it was andyzweb 
<astraljava> Ok.
<scott-upstairs> andyzweb, do you want to mention now what you started to say earlier?
<scott-upstairs> whew, it's been a two hour meeting
<rlameiro> wow
<rlameiro> i need to eat
<rlameiro> lol
<astraljava> Goes to show that a meeting was in order. :)
<scott-upstairs> does anyone else have anything to add?
<astraljava> Next meeting?
<scott-upstairs> i'll add audience to the next meeting agenda soon
<scott-upstairs> astraljava, should be in approximately one month
<astraljava> scott-upstairs: Okay good.
<scott-upstairs> we try for second sunday each month
<rlameiro> scott-upstairs: i think we could schedule more often
<rlameiro> maybe specific meetings
<rlameiro> like testing team meeting 
<scott-upstairs> absolutely!  that's a good idea
<scott-upstairs> i'll summarize the meeting during this coming week and see about setting the next meeting up as well and post to the -dev mailing list
<rlameiro> k
<astraljava> Great!
<scott-upstairs> thank you for participating :)
<astraljava> Does the meeting log get posted?
<scott-upstairs> yes, this channel is automatically logged
<astraljava> Oh, right. :)
<scott-upstairs> i will include links to it on the meeting agenda page along with the summerization
<scott-upstairs> s/summerization/summary
<astraljava> Cool.
<scott-upstairs> that sounded german
<astraljava> Heheh... :)
<rlameiro> he he
<astraljava> Thank you ScottL for organizing this. :)
<astraljava> Just one thing came to mind, too late of course. What about the team positions?
 * _guitarman_ plays defense
 * _guitarman_ jokes
<astraljava> Hahah! :)
<rlameiro> lol
<rlameiro> ScottL: is not upstairs now... maybe spending sometime with the family
<rlameiro> I vote on _guitarman_ to the testing team
<rlameiro> he uses a lot of audio features everyday, besides beeing a podcaster
<astraljava> Hopefully he can join the team. Is it an open team? Well I guess I can take a look at it myself. :)
<astraljava> Ahh... I'm already an indirect member. Guess I should pay more attention to my LP affairs. ;)
<_guitarman_> rlameiro: i'd love to be helpful, i'm just very concerned about the commitments i already have. :( testing an iso out from time to time and contributing a thought here and there may be my max at this point ... i'm just not sure, i've got the full time job, the podcast, the kids, and a tech contract outside of that
<rlameiro> _guitarman_: well, you could test things out when isos ae released
<rlameiro> and maybe only testing one of them
<_guitarman_> yes, i did one of those this time around
<rlameiro> that would be very helpfull already
<_guitarman_> probably my usefulness will extend to communicating what the team has to say - like the interview we did with scott
<_guitarman_> i'm open to conveying whatever the team wants to send out
<rlameiro> and as a musician you would go to the straight points, like hardware working, or jack unnig and things like that
<_guitarman_> we are almost at 1500 downloads / month
<_guitarman_> hopefully grow more and more
<rlameiro> well, i think a PR positions isnt a bad idea...
<_guitarman_> hehe we shall see - i'll sit in on the next few meetings and see if anything comes natural to how i can be of service
<rlameiro> maybe a shout out to test isos when its needed 
<_guitarman_> yup or if the team needs help developing an app to do X
<_guitarman_> or this or that
<_guitarman_> next time we won't fail so bad on getting the word out sooner
<rlameiro> well you can help alot just with that
<rlameiro> but also, you are an "heavy" audio user, so you imput is very important also
<rlameiro> software releases worth to include, or some things that dont work wood
<rlameiro> that feedback seems important to me
<_guitarman_> yeah, something that is really useful that kxstudio did is the pulse to jack bridge being on by default
<_guitarman_> this solved my podcast problem with skype
<_guitarman_> i setup a mumble server
<_guitarman_> do the voip on that
<rlameiro> and after all you are a power user.... slackware pain lover
<_guitarman_> use pulse to jack audio bridge to route the other voice in ardour
<_guitarman_> i tested this today, it works
<rlameiro> well, the problems is that the bridge is not on the ubuntu repos
<rlameiro> so here you go, you found a thing to implement :D
<_guitarman_> yes, it must be in falks ppa
<_guitarman_> as it is, his distro is more suitable with that being implemented for my uses.
<_guitarman_> i can get ubuntustudio to do the same i imagine if i drop the ppa in
<_guitarman_> i might do this
<_guitarman_> on my mininote
<_guitarman_> the implecation is huge - the lack of dependance on a non free tool
<rlameiro> well, maybe we need to try to push the package to the ubuntu repos
<_guitarman_> i will drop slack like a hot rock
<rlameiro> hehe
<_guitarman_> here what i think kxstudio does right - the latest apps, the pulse to jack sync
<_guitarman_> in a way, fragmentation is a bit of a problem - blessing and a curse
<rlameiro> _guitarman_: what is the name of the bridge?
<rlameiro> from the binary 
<_guitarman_> hmmm lemme see if its easy to grep
<_guitarman_> i actually don't know
<_guitarman_> i still have that livedvd in the pc
<rlameiro> oh never mind
<rlameiro> i will find it later
<_guitarman_> pulseaudio-module-jack
<_guitarman_> is one
<_guitarman_> they are on jack2 though as well etc.
<_guitarman_> its all the experimental stuff
<_guitarman_> ladi
<_guitarman_> etc
<_guitarman_> i dont really know if thats where ubuntustudio wants to go
<_guitarman_> anyways - that module in particular is of use to podcasters wanting to use pulse voip and record it in ardour
<_guitarman_> a lot of linux podcasters would find that useful
<_guitarman_> well, i just installed that on the mininote
<_guitarman_> which is running lucid
<_guitarman_> i'll let you know if thats all that was needed
<rlameiro> well, it is on the repos
<rlameiro> where do you strt it?
<rlameiro> from the pachooser?
<_guitarman_> rlameiro: we can probably take this over to #opensourcemusicians so we don't flood the log
<rlameiro> yeap
<rlameiro> :D
<astraljava> Please don't, it's useful information for this project as well. :) Nevermind the log.
<rlameiro> yea
#ubuntustudio-devel 2011-05-09
<Kokito> bbiab
<holstein> ScottL: did you see that email?
<holstein> just came in on the list
<holstein> social-media consultant
<ScottL> i haven't yet holstein 
<ScottL> but i will now
<ScottL> that's interesting, it certainly seems it would be worth following up
<Kokito> howdy
<ailo> ScottL, holstein: We talked about the meeting time yesterday - me and astraljava, and we think it wold be ok for us if you pushed the meeting to 17.00 UTC. That should make it easier for everyone to attend, right?
<holstein> ailo: yeah
<holstein> i think thats 1pm for me
<holstein> instead of 10am
<holstein> there was a reason why we had it that early
<holstein> and i can remember why right now
<holstein> i say lets go for it
<holstein> the team is all over
<holstein> so, if we need to move it around a bit at first
<holstein> or, have a couple different meetings
<holstein> we'll sort it out
<ailo> The problem with the last meeting time was that it was to late for us 01.00 am. But this time, I don't think the meeting time has been too late for anyone. Though now, it seems to be too early for some
<ailo> At 17.00 UTC, unless we have members east of Finland, everyone should be able to attend
<holstein> i think it was autostatic
<holstein> that happened to be here
<holstein> when i was picking a time
<ailo> He's in Holland, right? It's about the same time as myself
<holstein> i forget
<holstein> but, we cant please everyone
<ailo> Do we have members in Asia or Australia?
<holstein> lets try 17:00
<holstein> ailo: we might get some aussies at some point
<holstein> but i dont think we do right now
<ailo> If we do get aussies, then one time will not work for everyone.
<ailo> They are about 08.00 +
<holstein> lets hope that having too many team members is a problem we need to address :)
<detrate-> 5/close
#ubuntustudio-devel 2011-05-10
<Kokito> so, what's news in the UbuntuStudio world today?
<ScottL> holstein, ailo  if you want a different meeting time then send an email suggestions the new time for this coming meeting
<ScottL> otherwise i'll just remember next month and change it then
 * abogani waves all
<ScottL> morning abogani , how are you doing?
<ScottL> ailo, holstein :  sorry, i didn't explain myself very well, that's what i get for posting when i first wakw up
<ScottL> ailo, holstein : reply to the last email about rescheduling the meeting till this weekend, suggest a new time, if no one strongly objects then we rock the new time this weekend
<abogani> ScottL: Well  thanks.
<abogani> ScottL: By the way What have you decided about kernels? Which kernel do you want that I maintain?
<abogani> scott-work: ^
<scott-work> abogani: i missed the message when i left for work, i'm checking the logs now
<abogani> scott-work: No problems.
<falktx> abogani: hey there
<falktx> abogani: I want to say thanks to you for working the the rt/lowlatency kernels
<falktx> thanks to you, I made lowlatency for lucid and maverick, they work great!
<abogani> falktx: Really?
<falktx> abogani: yes, take a look - https://launchpad.net/~kxstudio-team/+archive/kernel/+packages
<falktx> there is there also rt-31 and rt-33 for maverick and natty, not just lucid
<falktx> rt-33 fails to boot on natty though...
<abogani> falktx: You have to remove gxf line in grub menu.
 * abogani start to think that -lowlatency doesn't work well...
 * abogani have started to think that -lowlatency kernel wouldn't work well...
<abogani> falktx: Thank you for KUbuntu ;)
<falktx> hehe
<falktx> abogani: what is gfx ?
<abogani> ScottL scott-work: In brief: I'll phasing out from kernel work in Ubuntu (FYI Ill return to work upstream) so I won't able to maintain a lots of kernels. So we have to choice. 
<abogani> falktx: The rt-33 fails in Natty for a line about graphics in grub (sorry I don't care of GRUB) which requires some support from kernel (which rt-33 doesn't have got).
<abogani> falktx: Is one of the first line in the interactivve GRUB menu.
<falktx> abogani: oh, thanks for letting me know
<falktx> abogani: any way to disable that automatically in a deb postinst ?
<abogani> falktx: You are welcome. Sorry I don't have time to handle this. :-(
 * abogani isn't a debian packaging expert
<abogani> scottL scott-work: So do you want that I'll continue to support -lowlatency on Natty or prefer I'll working on -lowlatency on Oneric? Or do you want  that I'll revive -realtime kernel?
<falktx> ok, abogani, thanks for the info, I'll try and see what I can do
<abogani> falktx: Thank to you! Please let me know if you find the fix!
<falktx> sure
<scott-work> abogani: sorry, got busy with work
<scott-work> abogani:  our current plan is to move forward with the -lowlatency kernel
<scott-work> abogani:  and since we should be able to address irq conflicts without the -rt patch it would seem that only specific niche use cases require -rt kernel then
<scott-work> abogani: so i would advocate we neither provide nor support -rt kernel at this point
<scott-work> abogani:  i am still planning on maintaining the -lowlatency kernel for oneiric
<scott-work> abogani: the only help that i know i will immediately need is that you maintiain your git repository
<scott-work> abogani: if you can do that
<abogani> scott-work: Sure it shouldn't be a pain.
<abogani> scott-work: What should I do with the natty's one?
<scott-work> abogani: lowlatency or rt?
<abogani> scott-work: ll (lowlatency)
<scott-work> i presume some people will still try to use your kernels unless you want to start telling them to use falktx's kernels
 * ckontros waves.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2011-05-11
<Kokito> good evening folks
<macinnisrr> scott-work_: was wondering what you've decided as far as a DE for ubuntustudio 11.10. Is Unity feasible in your opinion, or will we be diverging from stock Ubuntu?
<scott-work_> macinnisrr: i would say it almost a definitive that we are going with
<scott-work_> xfce
<macinnisrr> scott-work_: ok. Good to know. I know that gtk2 themes work with xfce, and wallpapers are the same, so I'll just have to do a little digging into their window and panel decorations to come up with some ideas.
<scott-work_> macinnisrr:  cory has been working on the UI a bit and has some stuff, he was talking to me about pushing it to the repos
<scott-work_> remember anyone can branch from bzr and get the code
<scott-work_> macinnisrr: but apparently the repos are closed at the moment during the UDS
<scott-work_> they probably should open next week
<macinnisrr> scott-work: aha. Who is Cory, and is there anywhere that I can see what he's been working on?
<macinnisrr> BTW: I've been looking into adding package selection to the installer for the liveDVD, and it seems like a simple thing to implement (being based on edubuntu-live's inclusion of the same). Not only that, but replacing the generic kernel with lowlatency is also an easy fix.
<macinnisrr> Currently, the Ubuntu liveCD installer will install a PAE enabled kernel on i386 systems by default, and a generic kernel if PAE is not supported, and it's a simple search and replace option in the source to make the same work with lowlatency as well.
<macinnisrr> scott-work_: ah, is Cory=Cory K, who used to head UbuntuStudio?
<scott-work_> macinnisrr: only read the last line at this point (phone call) but yes you are correct
<macinnisrr> scott-work_: I was just checking out ckontros' wiki, and am very intrigued. Once again, it seems we're ending up on the same page as far as design goes. He has a link to the breathe icon set, which is based on oxygen, and that's exactly what I've been doing with hydroxygen (and was planning on suggesting as default
#ubuntustudio-devel 2011-05-12
<ckontros> ScottL: ping
<scott-work> ckontros: i'm about to leave work, i should be home in about 1 hour
<ckontros> Ok. Im tinkering on the email to xubuntu-devel.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2011-05-13
<scott-upstairs> ckontros, i'm home
<ckontros> scott-upstairs: Ill hit you up in a bit. Tomorrow at the latest. Im off and got busy now but I have some emails written. Ill have you give em a once over.
<scott-upstairs> ckontros, sounds good
<ckontros> ScottL: Let me know when I can pastebin you stuff to look over.
<ScottL> ckontros, you can catch me at work today (scott-work), i should be there in about 1.25 hours
<ScottL> or you can catch me back at home (ScottL) at around 6:00CST
<ckontros> scott-work: Want me to go ahead with those emails?
<scott-work> ckontros: it looks good, i only have one syntactic correct to suggest
<scott-work> ckontros: for the list and planet:  "The team simply feels..."  rather than "The team simple feel..."
<scott-work> oh, blogger is up
<ckontros> I forgot an "s". :P But yeay, feel free to edit as needed for Planet. Add stuff, whatever.
<ckontros> *yeah
<ckontros> Ok. Im gonna post these and contact the artists.
<ckontros> scott-work: Surprisingly, xubuntu-devel list is as quiet or quieter then ours.
<scott-work> ckontros: look at this as well:  http://paste.ubuntu.com/607064/
<scott-work> the end isn't fully developed, i kinda ran out of steam and i'm going to rework it at some point
<scott-work> but i also will just review the whole thing yet again before i post
<ckontros> Ok. Ill read in a min.
<ckontros> scott-work: I'd change the "One notable suggestion" part to something more definitive as it's a done deal. I'd also mention that while we will be using XFCE we will be working toward leveraging the awesome power of AWN heavily. Or some such nonsense. :P
<ckontros> scott-work: Hmm... I'd almost change your example as well. As we will be changing up the UI a bit.
<ckontros> I gotta say, using _just_ AWN and no panels has been great. Hasn't changed workflow a bit. I even changed it on 2 other boxes here and the family quickly adjusted.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2011-05-14
<Kokito> howdy
<holstein> Kokito: o/
<Kokito> hey holstein 
<Kokito> day of big announcement, eh? :)
<holstein> yeah :)
<holstein> im stoked
<holstein> some silliness though
<holstein> like samba support
<holstein> that that is somehow connected to the DE
<holstein> but, whatever
<holstein> im sure we'll win some and lose some
<Kokito> there is no perfect world :)
<Kokito> Sakamoto-san does make some valid points, though
<holstein> sure
<holstein> but, gnome2 is going away
<holstein> its just a matter of when
<holstein> and *if* we all decide that gnome3 and unity are not appropriate
<holstein> which we seem to have decided that
<holstein> then, we are really just getting prepared
<holstein> for the future
<Kokito> I just wonder if it would not be worth giving Unity an opportunity to evolve
<holstein> sure
<holstein> but, we had talked about it
<holstein> and decided that we wouldnt really like that either
<holstein> assuming it evolved
<Kokito> I see :)
<holstein> Kokito: but, i see what you mean
<holstein> i think, in the long term
<holstein> going to XFCE keeps things more like they are now
<holstein> which is arguably more appropriate for ubuntustudio
<holstein> we could always move to unity if we wanted*
<Kokito> right
<holstein> im really enjoying a recent dual monitor setup i got going :)
<Kokito> nice!
<Kokito> I read the news that 11.10 will not have a video editor by default
<holstein> yeah
<holstein> why should it really
<holstein> is that a common needed task?
<holstein> i think its kinda nice
<holstein> it'll save some space on the iso though
<Kokito> I think a light video editor would not hurt
<Kokito> what video editors does US include?
<holstein> i need to look at openshot
<holstein> Kokito: thats a good question
<Kokito> yeah, I was reading about it myself
<holstein> i havent looked at the -video metapackage in a while
<Kokito> I should install US :)
<holstein> i have both
<Kokito> ok, sorry, but have to go
<Kokito> will probably be back online later
<holstein> Kokito: laterx :)
<Kokito> just finished dinner past midnight...
<scott-work> new blog post for those interested:  http://dullass.blogspot.com/2011/05/ubuntu-studio-moving-to-xfce.html
<scott-work> TheMuso:  did you manage to talk to andy yet about the -lowlatency kernel or is this too early?
<scott-work> i sometimes think that kenneth who posts to the mailing list is a troll :/
<holstein> scott-work: is that ralf ?
<holstein> nm
<holstein> i see kenneth koym's post
<holstein> scott-work: see, i think in your blog
<holstein> As most reading this blog should be aware, Ubuntu has recently moved from using GNOME 2
<holstein> even that isnt true
<holstein> i mean, it is
<holstein> but thats not the point
<holstein> gnome is moving from using gnome2
<holstein> gnome2 is EOL
<scott-work> i can understand ralf's post, and you are right, i don't think he knew about gnome2 EOL and ubuntu moving away from it...that's cool :)
<scott-work> holstein: ^^^
<scott-work> but i have a hard time with kenneth because he seems to be slightly "out there" with cryptic statements that border on conspiracy theories and little to base his charged or explosive statements
<scott-work> granted, i engaged in a little hyperboly when describing kenneth's comments, but that's how i feel it comes across
<holstein> scott-work: i asked for clarification
<holstein> from kenneth
<scott-work> i don't expec thim to respond (if he follows previous patterns )
<holstein> i didnt understand his statement at all
<scott-work> yeah, i didn't either
<scott-work> but it seems that people who write the way he does, kinda rambling without clear breaks between statements, themes, or concepts, also think that way
<scott-work> and perhaps his thougths aren't all that logical (or moderted by inhibitions) either
<holstein> its challenging
<holstein> this is *not* the first post about xfce
<holstein> and the move
<holstein> the one about samba
<holstein> i mean
<holstein> that was well thought out
<holstein> clear
<holstein> to the point
<holstein> a decent argument
<scott-work> but even if it was the first post, most of his statements still do not hold water
<holstein> i didt like that either since buntu in general should all have the same samba
<holstein> and ability to use samba
<holstein> still, i understand that post
<scott-work> holstein: oh yeah, there have been some great posts in this thread (and not just the one's who say it's a good idea ;P ) and have been backed by solid arguements or descriptive feelings/understandings
<holstein> the default applications argument
<holstein> its the FUD though
<holstein> looks like ralf got home from work
<holstein> and just started firing off at each comment ;)
<scott-work> while i think that certain concerns were valid earlier over kde apps rendering well in gnome and gnome rendering well in xfce might have been true in the past, i do not believe it is the same anymore
<scott-work> holstein: LOL, yeah
<holstein> scott-work: also, the change from KDE to KDE4 is not in any way similar to the change from gnome2 to gnome3
<scott-work> some has posited that i might be in terms of usability
<scott-work> that is, it would lack usability because some (most?) functionality was broken
<scott-work> but i don't think this will be the case
<holstein> LXDE is like gnome-light :)
<scott-work> my understanding is the kde4 really, really was broken for a majority of items...some accused it of being a developer release rather than a full blown release
<scott-work> s/the/that
<holstein> totally
<holstein> im more thinking now
<scott-work> i've played around with kde4 lately and i think since 4.6 they really have gotten things together
<holstein> when its stable
<holstein> compating KDE4.6 with KDE3
<scott-work> holstein: regarding LXDE...i've tried a few distros with it and i find it ugly
<holstein> comparing*
<scott-work> i think xfce has a very simple elegence compared to lxde
<holstein> you could say KDE is a prettier, newer version of KDE
<holstein> whereas gnome3
<holstein> thats a workflow change
<holstein> from gnome2
<holstein> anyways...
<scott-work> i know you like lxde and i'm not trying to be mean, but lxde just isn't me :P
<holstein> yeah, LXDE is nice and light
<holstein> but i think XFCE is much more polished in everyway
<scott-work> i find gnome3 much closer to supporting an audio workflow than unity
<scott-work> i simply do not enjoy navigating the desktop with unity....at all
<holstein> i heard jono's interview on the linux action show
<holstein> in defending unity
<scott-work> if i kept both hands on the keyboard at all times then it would be as big a deal
<holstein> personally, i think unity *is* great
<scott-work> screw jono, he's got to carry the company line in this
<holstein> and i think what the buntu team did in the short amount of time is awesome
<holstein> but, i have to agree with lunduke
<scott-work> now if someone from fedora was defending unity, that would be something :)
<holstein> why not just customize gnome3?
<holstein> scott-work: hehe
<scott-work> oh yeah, the team made awesome progress in the short time
<scott-work> but to me it does seem to be a bit of gnome3-lite
<scott-work> but i think the important issue is that unity (and ubuntu) will be moving to wayland
<holstein> as customizations get added
<holstein> i think it will seem more full-featured
<scott-work> and i don't think gnome3 is ready to do that...perhaps i'm wrong though
<holstein> yeah, everybody will eventually go to wayland
<scott-work> i wouldn't be surprised though, if the delta between gnome3 and unity decreases over time
<scott-work> gnome3 has some great functionaly that unity doesn't have now and i can't see them not incorporating these things over time
<scott-work> again, i think gnome3 more closely supports our desired work flow better than unity
<holstein> i think, if unity wasnt happening though
<holstein> and ubuntu was running gnome3
<holstein> we would still be talking about and moving to XFCE
<scott-work> qutie possibly
<scott-work> i've been giving some serious thought to various things:  the purpose of ubuntu studio, who we support, how long will i be lead
<scott-work> i think ubuntu studio shouldn't make ground breaking changes like ubuntu did with unity
<scott-work> i think our palce is to provide a stable environment for users to create art
<holstein> agreed
<scott-work> i don't even like some of the small, minor changes between each release
<holstein> even some of the ML questions
<holstein> like samba
<scott-work> yeah
<holstein> im a bit like 'who cares'
<holstein> thats not what US is about
<scott-work> why should i HAVE to relearn my desktop each six months because something stupid changed
<holstein> as long as we have the official repos, which we have to do
<scott-work> but then again, that's why i've been rocking the LTS version mostly
<holstein> then, folkds can get whatever they want going on easy enough
<scott-work> i'm defintely going to do a blog post about my feelings in this regard
<scott-work> eventually :P
<holstein> scott-work: yeah, i thought about responding to that
<holstein> since, i am running 10.04
<holstein> as well
<scott-work> but
<holstein> and am still not considering moving my production machine yet
<holstein> however, testing and preparing for 12.04
<holstein> thats important
<scott-work> yeah, me too...i've already backed up stuff and should install natty this weekend
<holstein> and we have a lot of work to do
<scott-work> oh, i misread what you said
<holstein> yeah, i have testing boxes
<scott-work> i thought you said you WERE going to move your production box
<holstein> that i'll run 11.10 on 
<holstein> ASAP
<scott-work> for what i do i feel comfortable moving to 11.04
<holstein> yeah, thats just my decision
<holstein> i dont feel like its 'unstable' really
<scott-work> i belive 11.04 provides significant improvements although some may be considered trivial
<holstein> its more just being comfortable with the packages
<holstein> and how it works
<scott-work> yeah, i understand
<scott-work> but if we openly declared that each release would be wild and varied and MIGHT NOT WORK and would have the latest, crazy shit...
<scott-work> BUT, would keep the LTS very, very stable and sane
<holstein> hehe
<scott-work> then i could see people being more open to things
<holstein> jono talked about that
<holstein> for the main release
<holstein> how thats not really clear
<scott-work> and i wouldn't feel that we needed to be stable, and consistent, and stable for the users
<holstein> whats the difference in the LTS's and non LTS's
<holstein> they are not really 'testing' releases
<holstein> and not reall 'stable' either
<scott-work> sort of like development relelases i guess
<holstein> he was implying that the higher-ups were trying to sort that out
<holstein> and make it more clear
<holstein> i mean, to a normal user
<scott-work> where is this interview?  i think i'd like to listen to it
<holstein> or someone running OSX or win
<holstein> its just *not* possible to communicate what these different releases are
 * holstein looking
<scott-work> but the system of LTS every two years is a bit of a detraction to me
<scott-work> things change SOOO much during that time
<scott-work> desktops get sexier, better looking, providing more functionality and performance
<scott-work> in the corporate world i guess it wouldn't matter as much
<scott-work> but i stayed with hardy until lucid was ready
<holstein> http://www.jupiterbroadcasting.com/7902/jono-talks-natty/
<scott-work> and holy shit it was a change
<holstein> yeah, i feel like i need to keep my finger on the pulse
<holstein> and see whats changing along the way
<holstein> hardy to lucid
<scott-work> ew, it's an hour long video...i'll save the link and listen to it later since i'm leaving work soon
<holstein> thats quite a change
<holstein> scott-work: i get the audio version
<holstein> on my droid
<holstein> jono had better respond to my email soon ;)
<scott-work> i'll see if i can get it on freedom hating itunes
<scott-work> call him out in other places :P
<holstein> he says a couple times 'i dont care what people use as long as its open'
<scott-work> i should even blog about it too :)
<holstein> im going to keep my eye on the prize though
<holstein> i just want him to help US
<holstein> however
<scott-work> downloading it now on my freedome hating iphone
<holstein> he's too high profile in music *not* to be talking about US
<scott-work> i agree wholeheartedly
<holstein> breakfast.. BB
<scott-work> i'm leaving work in five minutes as well :)
<ScottL> i'm not responding to kenneth anymore regarding this matter
<ScottL> oh, and thanks holstein for the link to that interview with jono, he should have been doing this sort of thing before
<ScottL> holstein, maybe we should up the intensity on jono for using non-free applications for audio AND not even offering suggestions to us
<ScottL> that interview (which i haven't finished) seemed to want to give him a hard time with his mixer and i thought...
<ScottL> what if many people blogged questioning him about what he does without offering suggestions for improvements
<ScottL> what if podcasts discussed it too
<ScottL> what if enough people emailed him asking him about it
<ScottL> would it build enough momentum to publicly force him to do something?
<holstein> ScottL: thats the problem though
<holstein> he has been asked about using open solutions for audio production
<holstein> and said that its not up to par
<holstein> and thats not cool
<holstein> i dont necessarily feel like jono does
<holstein> where, i dont care as long as people use open tools
<holstein> i think folks should use what works for them
<holstein> even jono
<holstein> BUT, by saying its not up to par
<holstein> thats bad
<holstein> i equate that to his uphill battle
<holstein> selling folks on ubuntu desktop use
<holstein> and getting the normal 'its not up to par because of MS integration'
<holstein> or whatever
<holstein> which, we all know is not true
<holstein> BUT
<holstein> at the same time
<holstein> if you are a desktop user in a community that used .doc's
<holstein> you need MS office to have the easiest and most compatible experience
<holstein> and thats fine
<ScottL> but if he would at least offer suggestions where it is deficient then at least he's helping
<holstein> BUT, its one of jono's jobs to change that viewpoint
<holstein> ScottL: exactly
<holstein> a person of his community envolvment
<holstein> he could actually get things fixed
<holstein> i see he is hiring a developer
<holstein> thats all i want
<holstein> i want jono to help us get to a higher profile
<ScottL> right, so we overwhelm him with peer pressure to do _something_ to help
<holstein> so we can have a full time cannonical paid studio dev
<holstein> ScottL: thats what i wish he had done
<holstein> instead of just saying 'this doesnt work'
<holstein> i mean, thats what linux desktop was like when he got on the scene
<holstein> and he has arguably been one of the bigger players in helping change that public view
<holstein> and, for a high profile member like him
<holstein> i am thinking strongly, if you're not part of the solution, you are part of the problem
<holstein> by saying linux audio is not up to par
<holstein> that directly effects ubuntustudio
<Kokito> did my friend Jono get in trouble again? :P
<holstein> and the public view of it
<holstein> Kokito: not yet :)
<Kokito> oh, so the best is yet to come, eh? :)
<holstein> Kokito: we'll see
<holstein> i have an email-plea out to him
<holstein> Kokito: i have decided we need his help
<Kokito> in what way?
<holstein> building community
<holstein> really just what he's good at
<holstein> just carry that over to ubuntustudio
<holstein> and not help spread the FUD about linux audio not being capable
<Kokito> ic
<holstein> Kokito: if you guys are friends, ask him if he got my email :)
<holstein> i tried to catch him in a /query first
<holstein> but he was busy
<holstein> and then.. UDS
<holstein> i know he's a busy guy
<holstein> but, we need him
<Kokito> met him a couple of times, but not really friends
<ScottL> hi Kokito , do you want to do a ubuntu studio newletter?
<holstein> ScottL: i think we handled this XFCE thing wrong
<holstein> now that i think about it
<Kokito> ScottL:  could help with the editing, but I do not know about US nor its use cases enough to write anything useful
<ScottL> holstein, you mean my emails to kenneth :P
<holstein> we should have made the fact more clear that gnome2 is EOL
<holstein> i think kenneth and others think we are just changing
<ScottL> Kokito, there really isn't a newsletter at this point
<holstein> for the hell of it
<ScottL> but holstein that's why i pointed out my blog for the reasons
<holstein> ScottL: OH, i hear you
<holstein> its like theres a carbon-monoxide leak in the ML
<Kokito> ScottL: if you want to start one, you will need people to write the content; I can't be one of them.
<holstein> maybe a blogspot blog
<holstein> and we can post to it
<Kokito> ScottL: I think we should try to use the website as a vehicle for newsletter-like content
<holstein> Kokito: yeah
<holstein> you're right
<holstein> the site should just have that functionality
<ScottL> Kokito, no, i agree with that...i'm just kinda messing around anyway, i was hoping you would say "yeah, that's what i've always wanted to do and i already started one"
<Kokito> heh
<ScottL> i would seriously like other contributors to ubuntu studio to be able to post at the new website in certain areas for updates and thoughts
<ScottL> ailo_'s testing of the kernels would have been a good deal
<ScottL> get that infomration out there
<ScottL> like gnome2 EOL
<holstein> yeah
<holstein> i mean
<holstein> i feel like it was clear
<holstein> but, maybe not clear enough
<holstein> we should have had it really clear like that
<Kokito> ScottL: to open up the website for broader collaboration is technically feasible (and desirable IMHO)
<holstein> gnome2 is going away
<ScottL> but i will say that cory could have started the post clearer with some simple facts, but he asked me to proof read it as well and i failed to note that
<holstein> period
<holstein> SO, we are... 
<holstein> ScottL: i think, in light of the information
<holstein> its clear
<holstein> i just assume that folks are in the know
<holstein> and they are not
<holstein> if you're not in the IRC
<ScottL> well i thought my blog post clearly outlined the logic behind the move, but perhaps i'm too close, did it make sense to you guys?
<holstein> i feel like some of the news slips by
<holstein> ScottL: i thought it was crystal
<holstein> your post
<holstein> but, whatever
<Kokito> I have a question: since US is moving to XFCE, does that mean that it will be based on XUBUNTU?
<holstein> again, we are not going to please everyone
<holstein> however
<holstein> the comments are like 'keep gnome you idiots'
<ScottL> Kokito, no, we will just replace the gnome-panel packages with xfce ones
<holstein> and the one time i have aske for clarification
<Kokito> ScottL: I see, thanks
<holstein> from ralph
<holstein> he didnt know gnome2 was EOL
<holstein> or, what gnome3 was
<Kokito> ScottL: do we have access to the existing website stats?
<ScottL> holstein, this has been a consistent problem with communication around ubuntu studio
<ScottL> Kokito, not that i am aware, others might know like ckontros or jussi or themuse or persia
<holstein> yeah, its challenging to plan for all the opinions
<ScottL> holstein, to quesh ignorance or misunderstanding i have had to consistently repeat statements
<holstein> and i think, i expect a certain amount of education to occur
<holstein> self-education
<ScottL> but perhaps it's a systemic problem holstein 
<Kokito> ScottL: are these people that you mention (ckontros, jussi, themuse, etc.) MIA?
<holstein> and thats not right i suppose
<holstein> i mean, the one guy said 'whats XFCE'
<holstein> i valid question
<holstein> but, i would expect someone to just google it
<holstein> and read
<ScottL> holstein, Kokito , if we had the new website up and going and we consistently post news to it then we could THEN expect our users to dervie information ffrom there 
<ScottL> Kokito, ckontros is cory kontrols who has been around more and more lately, but the others are involved, but peripherally generally
<holstein> i think part of this early adoption is that we *could* jump back to unity
<ScottL> in some cases they get directly involved, but those are special occassions
<holstein> in theory
<holstein> before 12.04
<holstein> well, not back to unity, but you know...
<ScottL> holstein, i'm using unity right now and i don't like it, but i force myself to keep using it to become familiar with it (not because i think i've been bad and need to be punished)
<jussi> can someone briefly tell e what you want to know so I dont have to read scroll back right now? 
<ScottL> jussi, Kokito was asking about stats for the existing website (ubuntustudion.org)
<ScottL> jussi, Kokito is helping update to a new website and is doing wonderful things :)
<jussi> I think I have made it fairly clear that I am not really active, Im not MIA, but backing off to do other stuff
<Kokito> hi jussi 
<jussi> I know not much about the status of the website.
<ScottL> holstein, but if we make the website with a news section and we keep posting continual information then i would expect the users to keep up with it and be more knowledgeable
<holstein> right
<holstein> BUT, i dont think we can expect anything
<holstein> i mean, im the same way
<holstein> or was at least*
<holstein> i think folks assume theres a big team somewhere
<ScottL> yeah, they think that ubuntu studio is an operating unto itself and a well paid and highly mobilized team is working it
<ScottL> interesting, and not unreleatedly, i found out that the xubuntu team is not quite as robust as i imagined as well, apparently most of the packages come from debian
<ScottL> other than just the settings, plymouth theme, etc
<ScottL> which is very similar to us ;)
<holstein> yeah
<holstein> i think it could be mutually benificial
<Kokito> ScottL: the fact that US is a volunteer based initiative can be articulated in the new website in a more prominent way
<holstein> OR, i get loud
<holstein> and get us some funds for a dev
<holstein> or dev team :)
<holstein> i dont want to lose the control we have though
<holstein> ScottL: i wouldnt want it to be taken over
<holstein> it would be nice to have someone chewing on backports
<holstein> and kernel maintaining
<holstein> fixing packages
<holstein> or some heavy lifting rewriting packages for US
<holstein> it would be great if something died
<holstein> and we could fork it
<holstein> and have an ubuntustudio maintained pacakge
<ScottL> hi troy_s 
<ScottL> i'm going to start blogging more and being a little more ruthless about what i post i fear
<holstein> ScottL: good :)
<ScottL> holstein, what would you have die?
<holstein> ScottL: well, i didnt mean that the way it sounds
<holstein> i just meant
<holstein> *if* something died off
<holstein> like a plugin
<holstein> or soemthing handy 
<holstein> if we had the resources to maintain it 
<holstein> in house
<holstein> it would be good for us to be contributing like that
<holstein> AND, folks would notice i think
<ScottL> oh, i got you, not to be replaced but to be fixed, i'm with you again
<ScottL> reaching out to other distributions to help would be good
<troy_s> ScottL: Greetings.
<ScottL> argh, mark shuttleworth keeps hacking into my computer and making it lock up
<holstein> hehe
<holstein> hes like that
<holstein> ScottL: im serious
<holstein> a carbon-monoxide leak
<holstein> another 'why change? gnome is great' message
<holstein> to that same thread
<ScottL> yeah, i saw that and responded
<ScottL> i almost said "did you read anything above?"
<holstein> yeah, me too
<holstein> ;p
<holstein> im starting to feel like i might need to unsubscribe
<ScottL> heh, yeah it's kinda draining and makes me want to choke something
<astraljava> Haven't read mail in a couple of hours, still debating about the switch to XFCE?
<holstein> astraljava: well, we arent debating really
<holstein> we are moving
<holstein> we're just getting some rather off the wall statememts
<astraljava> holstein: Yea sorry, wrong term. Complaining? :)
<holstein> like "why are you switching DE's"
<holstein> astraljava: complaining to uninformed FUD creation
<astraljava> Yuppers, reading the mail now. *rolls eyes*
<holstein> astraljava: i just visited the fluxbuntu site
<holstein> :/
<holstein> i see thats still held up in whatever
<holstein> too bad
<holstein> i had to let some things go
<holstein> i feel like i can grind an axe for ubuntustudio
<holstein> and thats about it
<astraljava> holstein: Yeah we dropped the ball, once again.
<astraljava> There's some interesting talk going on, though.
<astraljava> Wonder if we could pull that through, might really breath some life into the project.
<astraljava> breathe*
<raboof> gnome-panel will be retired along with the rest of gnome2? even though I don't really run gnome, i thought that was one of the nicest panels around :(
<raboof> awn is pretty nice, but has some elements that make it not play nice with my windowmanager of choice (notion)
<ailo_> As long as I can choose what desktop system I can use, I don't care
<ailo_> Ubuntu Studio could be added in part to any Ubuntu derived distro
<astraljava> ailo_: That's, quite amusingly, the exact reasoning as to why I sometimes wonder why we're actually providing an install .iso in the first place. :)
#ubuntustudio-devel 2011-05-15
<ailo_> astraljava, I suppose to offer a system perfectly tuned towards multimedia. And that has been the case with some of the release, but not all
<astraljava> ailo_: Yeah, but all the tweaks could be written into packages (via postinsts etc.), such as removing NetworkManager and the like.
<ailo_> astraljava, That's true
<astraljava> There's only one thing that comes to mind; if the intended machine will not be connected to Internet, so you can download most everything you will need in one file.
<astraljava> In exactly how many cases will this materialize?
<astraljava> No one knows.
<ailo_> It is becoming less and less common for people not to have Internet for sure. But, then there's the live image variant, which can be very useful too
<ailo_> I wonder how much resources the awn together with XFCE takes compared to Unity or Gnome3
<astraljava> I guess. I have a hard time figuring out a session where you've loaded the whole OS into RAM, and then start recording/processing/whatever. But it might happen, I could just be totally ignorant regarding such incidents.
<ailo_> Maybe there should be a multimedia panel, that replaces all other panels :)
<astraljava> Not altogether a bad idea. :)
<ailo_> astraljava, You would never record on to RAM. You would use the existing hard drive or an external one
<ailo_> But, loading apps into RAM is what you do either way
<ailo_> And it works just as well, only loading the apps is slower
<ailo_> From CD especially, it's slower to load tha apps
<astraljava> ailo_: Of course, but the data doesn't go directly to the disk without running through RAM first,  or does it?
<astraljava> ailo_: I guess you're right, it shouldn't be any different.
<ailo_> astraljava, I believe the OS runs pretty much identically, only that it reads programs from the live image when it loads, so it takes longer time
<ailo_> But running them is the same
<astraljava> Yep, don't know what I was thinking. :)
<ailo_> puredyne has a persistant live image, which you can create users on, and even install programs. 
<ailo_> Using usb stick that is
<ailo_> It's really handy
<ailo_> You can bring your own system to any other machine
<astraljava> Yeah, never used but am aware. That's pretty nifty.
<ailo_> I used puredyne 911 as a live machine. Installed on hard drive. XFCE. The rt kernel from karmic. A very nice system
<ailo_> The live image comes in two sizes. CD and DVD
<ailo_> So, you have all the combinations you can think of
<ailo_> I would probably use the Puredyne live image creation as the base for an Ubuntu Studio live image
<Kokito> howdy
 * Kokito is listening to Santana while shredding old useless documents
<ScottL> astraljava, one of the benefits of providing an install ISO for ubuntu studio is what we choose to exclude :)
<ScottL> oh, i see someone pointed this out
<ScottL> holstein, i just read in LXF that even though gnome3 has a fallback option to gnome panel, it is configured to behave like gnome shell
<ScottL> so, this means yes, we could try to default to gnome panel that is included with gnome 3 but it will still perform and look like gnome 3 without the 3d acceleration
<holstein> ScottL: yeah
<holstein> thats what im thinking
<holstein> im looking for the option on the live CD i have
<holstein> i'll have to get a new live CD though
<holstein> ScottL: chkontros?
<holstein> ckontros?
<astraljava> It's only 11 am, he can't possibly be up yet. *grin*
<holstein> hehe
<holstein> astraljava: is it chontos?
<holstein> chontros
<astraljava> ckontros, and he's not even on the channel.
<astraljava> holstein: What do you use for IRC?
<holstein> astraljava: yeah, thats why i cant remember his nick ;)
<holstein> astraljava: i have irssi in screen
<astraljava> Okay, so you should have nick completion in tab.
<astraljava> Very useful to tell whether someone's on channel or not, as irssi doesn't show joined nicks by default.
<holstein> astraljava: yeah
<holstein> im not looking for him
<holstein> i want to refer to him in an email
<holstein> and couldnt remember the nick
<astraljava> Ahh... sorry. :)
<holstein> no worries
<holstein> i wasnt clear about it ;)
<astraljava> Yeah it's ckontros, c for Cory.
<astraljava> holstein: Trimming is recommended. :)
<holstein> trimming?
<holstein> i thought maybe i had accidentally sent that long, bitchy email i composed
<holstein> to the mailing list ;)
<astraljava> No I mean when responding to others' posts, scrap the irrelevant portion.
<astraljava> :)
<holstein> astraljava: i thought i had
<astraljava> When there's 257 lines in the post, it becomes tiresome checking it all for content.
<holstein> or, i thought it was not shown
<astraljava> gmail?
<holstein> it just shows up and 'quoted text' for me
<holstein> yeah
<astraljava> Yeah.
<holstein> that thread is ridiculous anyways
<holstein> thats it for me
<astraljava> It doesn't show it to you, but it will still be sent.
<astraljava> Yeah I agree it got out of hand.
<holstein> its just emotional
<holstein> which is good in a way
<holstein> even that last one
<holstein> 'i dont know what XFCE is, but..'
<holstein> its like, go Fn look 
<astraljava> That's partly true, but...
<holstein> theres xubuntu and puredyne
<astraljava> Yeah exactly.
<holstein> and that other hard-on
<holstein> that was like 5 or 6 back and forth threads
<holstein> and then, "OH, i thought we were talking about LXDE'
<astraljava> Haha! Yeah cracked me up. :D
<holstein> its a passionate crowd though
<holstein> and thats good
<holstein> we just need to get them in here
<holstein> and involved
<astraljava> Yeah I guess.
<holstein> involved in testing
<holstein> and fixing, instead of bitching
<holstein> *something i have been guilty of
<holstein> thats partially why i wanted to get involved with fluxbuntu
<holstein> stop bitching and fix it
<holstein> so, now that i dont have time
<holstein> i cant bitch about it anymore ;)
<astraljava> Well of course you can. :) People are allowed to have opinions. :)
<holstein> hehe
<ScottL> oi, i'm here
<ScottL> i find the "we're changing to xfce" thread to be wearing thin on my patience
<astraljava> Maybe let it die already? :)
<ScottL> yes, you are right astraljava 
<astraljava> But in hindsight, maybe Cory should have mentioned Gnome2 going away? Might have dismissed many who now nag about not using that.
<astraljava> Or GNOME 2, whatever.
<ScottL> yes, that would have helped quite a bit too ;)
<ScottL> but it would be helpful if people would read the rest of the thread to see if there is other information
<astraljava> Yeah, mailing list etiquette is lost on so many of us.
<ScottL> or if they would provide something tangible to argue against using xfce
<ScottL> i really welcome ANY information, pro or con
<ScottL> it would give us _some_ basis
<astraljava> Mostly people are just not comfortable for leaving something they have used for a long time.
<astraljava> Oh crap, did we have the meeting soon?!
<ScottL> oh....
<ScottL> i think we missed it :/
<ScottL> lol, i'm a bad lead :(
<astraljava> No no, wasn't it 17:00 UTC?
<astraljava> In less than half an hour.
<ScottL> eh, i thought it was 1.75 hours ago, but either way we don't have a published agenda :(
<astraljava> Ahh... true.
<holstein> ScottL: dood
<holstein> i had a long message like that earlier
<holstein> that i deleted
<holstein> im *so* glad that went out :)
<holstein> astraljava: i agree
<holstein> we could have announced it better probably
<holstein> however, there are threads with that information in them
<astraljava> holstein: True, but most people only see the official statement, and neglect to read the rest of the conversation.
<astraljava> Okay I'll be watching hockey for a while now, maybe see ya later.
<ScottL> holstein, you mean the post where i explained the reasons again?
<Kokito> howdy
<ScottL> hi Kokito 
<Kokito> sorry that I missed the meeting
<ScottL> we didn't really have a meeting, its been overshadowed by the "we're moving to xfce" thread i fear
<ScottL> i think it made everyone forget the meeting ;)
<ScottL>  
<Kokito> ouch
<ScottL> i could have handled some of the emails better
<ScottL> i realize that i probably should have simply responded by acknowledging their position (xfce=bad) and then ask if they can provide more information
<Kokito> I thought you showed a lot of patience
<ScottL> lol, Kokito , thank you but i fear you are being gracious with that adjective :P
<ScottL> i tend to be very objective orientated with points and conterpoints and very direct engagement
<ScottL> i have a point to discussing and i want you to attack my position with logic and reason
<ScottL> i score "major" points with my wife you can probably guess ;)
<Kokito> :)
<ScottL> Kokito, since you are here, how is the website going?
<ScottL> oh, i'll probably do an apology email later on about this whole xfce thing, apologizing for not explaining it well originally and how i reacted by getting short with people
<ScottL> Stuzz from #opensourcemusicians helped me with some drums:  http://tinyurl.com/Braaiinnzzz
<holstein> ScottL: thats nice :)
<holstein> * the track
<Kokito> hey holstein 
<Kokito> ScottL: I don't much of an opinion on the XFCE debate
<ScottL> Kokito, and i respect that position
<ScottL> i also respect the position that says "it's bad for X reason"...i was looking forward to this actually
<Kokito> my only observation would be that, in Ubuntu, of all Unity is most likely to get the most development push/resources and thus seems to me the preferable choice if you consider long term growth.
<ScottL> i wanted to understand really how people felt and fully wanted to validate our decision by exploring where people felt it as wrong for a particular reason
<ScottL> Kokito, i'm not sure i agree with that argument because xfce is an upstream development, just like gnome was before
<Kokito> staying with the mainstream Ubuntu may give you a better chance at cross-polination of resources
<ScottL> hmmm, that's an interesting thought though (cross pollination of resources)
<ScottL> but development should continue with xfce  without ubuntu's involved (which i imagine was little anyway)
<ScottL> i mean development in a general sense for xfce, not our development with xfce
<ScottL>  
<ScottL> if we were going to use something besides xfce i would prefer gnome3 at this point over unity however
<ScottL> simply because i think it is a more refined, stable, and functional base than unity AT THIS POINT
<ScottL> i fully expect unity develop to keep up the amazing pace they have demonstrated last cycle
<Kokito> ScottL: in my ignorance, adopting XFCE instead of Unity also feels like moving away from Ubuntu/Canonical. This has nothing to do with technical viability, but I am not sure if it may or may not have an (negative?) effect on the relationship with Canonical. Maybe I am just a bit too paranoid :)
<ScottL> Kokito, haha, i don't think that's paranoia , just practical sense
<ScottL> but my perspective is that canonical views ubuntu studio, not with disdain, but perhaps indifference
<ScottL> i don't think, but i may be wrong, that shuttleworth is concerned that a niche derivative moves away from unity
<ScottL> at least i am unaware of _any_ correspondence to anyone on the team from anyone in canonical in regards to the DE
<Kokito> I never thought there was any disdain towards US. I tend to think, though, that staying on the mainstream Ubuntu (ie., Unity) gives you a better chance of being seen as potentially of value to Ubuntu core
<Kokito> if instead of switching to XFCE the US team helps address whatever workflow shortcomings Unity may have, then your value (from a Canonical POV) increases; in contrast, moving to XFCE will most likely result in more indifference
<Kokito> perhaps the change to Unity opens an opportunity to become more engaged with the Ubuntu core dev team, which cannot be bad IMHO
<Kokito> but what do I know anyway Ã=
<Kokito> oops! that was meant to be a :)
<Kokito> bbl
<holstein> yeah, i can relate with that opinion
<holstein> however, #2 with canonnical is kubuntu
<ScottL> that was a good point
<holstein> ScottL: did you see robert klaar's email?
<holstein> i just responded
<holstein> that is a great email
<holstein> thats what we need*
<holstein> healthy educated debate
<holstein> actually, thats what we needed
<holstein> its too late now
<holstein> back when we had the thread about discussing the UI change
<holstein> that would have been a great time for the debate
<holstein> but, whatever
<ScottL> yeah, that's good stuff, including hartmut and michaels 2nd response
<holstein> yeah
<holstein> things are much more clear now that you put the hammer down ;)
<holstein> i can work with that
<ScottL> but still the majority seems to think it will be a good move, including hartmut :)
<holstein> michael is the same guy that said twice 'i think theres a compatibility mode' too
<holstein> thats quite an improvment from 'i think there might be a way to keep gnome2'
<ScottL> oh....well, he's right though, there is one...it's just not probably what he thought it would be :P
<ScottL> lol
<ScottL> yeah
<ScottL> i wonder if we could translate this into more testers, bear with me...
<ScottL> what if we said we're still moving with xfce, BUT...
<ScottL> you think unity is better, fine, help us develop a way to test this and include it as an install time option
<ScottL> edubuntu does this
<ScottL> er, but then again, this might just shut people up
<holstein> well, it might just chill folks out to know that we are planning on testing apps in unity
<holstein> which we will/can
<holstein> and that the current vanilla install would render unitystudio
<holstein> pretty much
<ScottL> ailo__, i'm putting natty on my main rig so i can test the -lowlatency with other hardware now
<ailo__> ok
#ubuntustudio-devel 2012-05-07
<ailo> This is the patch for threadirqs https://lkml.org/lkml/2011/2/23/513
<len-dt> ailo,  I didn't think we were running a 2.6 kernel.. I guess we were at the time.
<ailo> len-dt: Linus changed how the versioning is done after 2.6.39. In a way, the 3.x.x kernels are 2.6 kernels
<TheMuso> ailo: No I don't know.
<ailo> TheMuso: Thanks. Are very occupied in the coming future? I was thinking about maybe starting to document the kernel maintenance bit. At least it would be really helpful for me to get an idea of your current steps to update it
<ailo> I mean to ask, are you very occupied in the coming future. Didn't realize I was leaking words
<ailo> len-dt: Also, the threadirqs option was included with 2.6.39, if I remember correctly. Either that, or the version before
<TheMuso> ailo: Its UDS this week, so will be flat out with that, probably not till I return, eta Monday week.
<ailo> TheMuso: Ah, right. Well, I'm not in any particular hurry, so whenever you can is fine with me
<TheMuso> Ok no problem.
<len-dt> OK, ailo the network-manager is another of those respawn things.
<ailo> len-dt: How's your skill in reading C?
<len-dt> It has been a number of years to honest. No real training, just read the part of the book needed for the next project ;-)
<len-dt> ailo, what would you like me to look at?
<ailo> I'm looking at the kernel patch. Unfortunately, I don't read C very well. Trying to figure out where the threadirq function is defined, or whatever, and where it in that case could be enabled without having to add a boot option
<ailo> len-dt: I pasted the patch here http://paste.ubuntu.com/972612/
<ailo> The interesting part I guess starts at around line 87 .. linux-2.6-tip/kernel/irq/manage.c
<len-dt> ailo, I had just sort of figured that out..
<ailo> len-dt: I was just reading a comment there, which talks about some buses being slow, like maybe the irq for your network card
<ailo> It's a little frustrating not having a good picture of the whole. I really should go to school and study these things
<len-dt> ailo, I'm a bit old for that ;-) I've had enough school forever...
<len-dt> ailo, it has to be the bit at the begining of manage.c (lines 95 to 105)
<len-dt> To really tell I would have to know the way the kernel deals with CL parameters.
<len-dt> ailo it seems to be a call to early_param()
<ailo> len-dt: I think this might have to do with it too, lines 155,156
<ailo>  	sched_setscheduler(current, SCHED_FIFO, &param);
<ailo>  	current->irqaction = action;
<ailo> Wondering about &param particularly
<ailo> But then, I don't really know what I'm reading
<ailo> SCHED_FIFO is important at least http://lwn.net/Articles/296419/
<len-dt> Part of the problem is that the rest of the file is missing. It would be best to look at manage.c with the patch added. It would add context to things
<ailo> len-dt: I suppose you are right
<ailo> Still, the part which makes threadirqs option readable is in that patch
<len-dt> Yes. but what it does with it is not.... maybe...
<ailo> Well, it's always interesting to learn half a story of something new :P. I'm hoping someone will pick up on the subject on LAD and explain how the threadirq option can be added into the source.
<ailo> Now it's time to go to bed!
<len-dt> QasMixer has some nice features over the xfce mixer for setting levels while using jack.
<ailo> len-dt: Well, it seems there is a way to add boot arguments to the source, without the need to hard code it. It can be done adding the argument to /arch/<arch>/Kconfig under a couple of places, but I don't think this is how -lowlatency does it
<ailo> len-dt: I started a discussion about the rtirq script on LAD
<ailo> http://lists.linuxaudio.org/pipermail/linux-audio-user/2012-May/084809.html
<ailo> LAU, I mean
<ailo> Anyway, I really want to get to the bottom with this
<ailo> You have your NM causing problems in spite of the rtirq script
<ailo> I want to know if we can make your problem go away without stopping NM
<ailo> len-dt: Also, about the threadirq, it can be passed as a kernel config option argument. Just trying it now
<len-dt>  ailo hi, just woke up. I am certainly willing to try things. My netbook is about the worst HW likely to be used for audio.
<len-dt> ailo, there is probably slower HW around, but this is about as anti-audio as they get ;-)
<ailo> len-dt: Sounds like a perfect machine for testing then
<ailo> One thing I realized I haven't really tried is running stuff without realtime privilege, to see what the difference is
<len-dt> ailo, I figure so. I played with recording using the internal audio IF and an external (cheap) mixer.
<len-dt> I turned the internal card way down (mic boost off) and the mixer as high as I could with out clipping.
<len-dt> I used a dynamic mic (no phantom power) with an xlr to phone jack adaptor.
<ailo> Running jackd without privileges on -lowlatency is sort of like running jackd with privileges on -generic
<ailo> Working pretty decently at -p 128
<len-dt> I was able to record quite a quiet stuff. It is not studio quality for sure, but good enough pod caste for example.
<ailo> Allthough, I believe -generic is worse
<ailo> len-dt: Not bad :P
<len-dt> -p 128 is the lowest jack will even start at on my netbook
<ailo> I'm more and more thinking that when it comes to system configuration, only the kernel and privileges are absolutely needed. And that the rest is very hardware dependant. Perhaps solvable by hacking the kernel
<ailo> It would be nice if the kernel could be easily made more audio friendly, either by patching the vanilla source, or by adding ways to tune the kernel easily either during boot, or runtime
<ailo> By patching I mean making it permanent for all kernels that derive from the vanilla kernel
<ailo> I don't see why we need to shut things off in order to get rid of xruns
<ailo> If audio is prio, then it should be able to make it prio more easily
<len-dt> ailo, sorry, I was helping someone on the other channel connect a midi keyboard to qsynth.
<len-dt> ailo, I think part of my problem may be the wlan driver.
<len-dt> I'm not sure how unless the irq top half has more in it than it should.
<len-dt> There may also be internal bus issues.
<len-dt> ailo, the netbook is all about doing things with the least. I wonder if the wlan chip(set) uses system bus for some things. So NM tells wlan to scan and waits for irq when done, but wlan uses system bus while scanning preempting the cpu for a short time.
<len-dt> I do know the video chip uses system bus, but it knows how to interleave better.
<ailo> len-dt: Perhaps it is a driver issue then, and that the wlan is being rude by taking up too much time, or something? But, how do drivers work? Aren't they limited by something else in the kernel, or can you really create havoc for realtime applications with badly written drivers
<ailo> If it is driver specific, then all hardware using that drivers could have the same issue
<ailo> And in that case it's a matter of doing something to the driver, which is probably not open source
<len-dt> ailo, the driver is supposed to be divided into top half and bottom half. the Top half is supposed to answer/reset the interupt and call the bottom half.
<len-dt> If the top half does too much that would be a problem.
<len-dt> The netbooks share a lot of stuff. It may even be that the wlan chip and the sound chip share things too.
<len-dt> ailo, it will be interesting to see how my USB audio IF handles things.
<ailo> I'm not sure I got the right picture, but I'm guessing it's something like this. The bottom half is either activated by whatever it is physically connected to, and since it doesn't have it's own way of storing a lot of the data coming through, it will want to pass that on to the top half, which in turn tells the kernel it is ready to send it's data, no?
<ailo> Either activated by that, or the top half which wants to send info out..
<ailo> It seems to me the problem is not in managing what is coming to the device, but in how network-manager handles it
<ailo> And that the kernel allows network-manager to do something odd
<ailo> Or, allowing the wlan device to execute a number of tasks in que instead of breaking it up
<ailo> I'm being unclear as usual. I need to start reading about this stuff. Never been interested in drivers, hardware and that sort of things before
<ailo> len-dt: What did you say the driver was called?
<ailo> Found a nice tutorial on how to write device drivers for linux, as well as modules. Both are something I don't really what they are right now. http://www.freesoftwaremagazine.com/articles/drivers_linux http://www.linuxtopia.org/online_books/linux_kernel/linux_kernel_module_programming_2.6/index.html
<ailo> I'd love to learn all that right away, but it's time to do other things for a while
<Len-nb> ailo, netbook driver is ath9k.
<Len-nb> The list of modules is much longer... aht9k, mac80211, ath9k_common, ath9k_hw, ath, cfg80211
<Len-nb> probably the ath9k_hw is probably the one that plays with the irq
<ailo> Len-nb: Well, at least that driver is FOSS http://linuxwireless.org/en/users/Drivers/ath9k
<len-dt> ailo,  the question is if the problem is that or NM
<ailo> len-dt: What is the model name for that notebook. I had a crazy idea. I might try to find a used one and buy it :P
<len-dt> It says KV60
<ailo> And he brand?
<len-dt> acer aspire one netbook
<len-dt> the acer aspire is a series of netbook/laptops.
<len-dt> ailo, I have found it is one of the more usable netbooks. My wife has the HP (don't buy one) which has had more HW problems and has no pgup or pgdn keys even with funct.
<len-dt> As a small computer the netbook is wonderful, it is light and small and yet complete.
<ailo> I've actually had good experience with HP's
<len-dt> I think the HP laptops are probably better, it is the netbook I don't like.
<ailo> And ACER I often find is cheap for the performance you get, but it gets hot and noisy instead
<len-dt> Cut too many corners...
<len-dt> I have not found it too hot... though it does get warm. The atom chip is cooler than others.
<ailo> len-dt: The IEEE that I've been using gets pretty hot with the atom, though it's kind of old. More recent notebooks are pretty splendid for the cost
<len-dt> ailo, I will say that the HP battery seems to be lasting longer. My 3.5 hour battery is down to about 1.5 or so hours.
<ailo> The HP's I've seen around seem to last forever
<ailo> A more recent HP was a lot worse quality wise. Really bad keyboard
<ailo> But there are thousands of models. Some are bound to be bad
<len-dt> ailo, The HP has a less nice wlan chip, it drops connection more often than the acer. Not a big thing though, might be antenna placement.
<ailo> I think I need to change strategy. Perhaps assemble a list of computers that are know to cause problems, and then try to find one for sale. 
<ailo> I should put an ad: Looking for really badly behaving hardware. Will pay a reasonable amount for it!
<len-dt> I just added a note to the ubuntu aspire page about the internal mic. The left and right have to be unloacked and one full one and the other full off.
<len-dt> The HW sends left and right inverted and alsa mixes them...
<ailo> len-dt: You should probably mention this at alsa-devel list, and maybe a pulse list as well
<ailo> Or maybe a bug-report?
<ailo> To alsa, I mean
<len-dt> The pulse/alsa devs are aware. "there will be no fix"
<ailo> ok
<len-dt> The problem is that it can't be auto detected.
<ailo> It's not the same at each boot?
<len-dt> The same chip is used different in different models.
<len-dt> So if they fix my problem they break someone elses box
<ailo> And they don't do model specific fixes
<ailo> Why did you think the HP was worse again? M)
<ailo> ;)*
<len-dt> I don't know if they can. 
<len-dt> keyboard is lacking keys I use all the time. wireless seems less sesitive. HD light is hard to see. no line in jack for audio.
<len-dt> Seems to me I had problems with the card reader too at one point. I haven't tried it for a while though.
<len-dt> the card reader on the acer had problems at one kernel release too.
<len-dt> Its funny because the OS sees it as a usb device and a usb stick or a USB card reader works fine...
<len-dt> even with the same SD card.
<len-dt> HP has had problems with the sound. But not with 12.04, when we first got it I had to manually switch the output from headphone to speaker... some config change or something. It seems to be fixed though. I put 12.04 in and it just works.
<ailo> I'm getting more and more convinced about the HP. At least for audio use :P. I would guess you can run jackd at a lower latency and without xruns caused by the network manager
<len-dt> But no audio in.
<len-dt> So what would the point be?
<Len-nb> ailo, when I get the usb audio IF, I will try it on both.
<ailo> Len-nb: I,ve rarely used builtin devices for recording, so that would be no problem for me. But, when usb is the only option otherwise, I guess that is a problem in itself. At least from how it seems
<ailo> I think this must be the single biggest problem in the linux pro audio world right now in fact
<ailo> In a modern world you'd like to be able to move away from pci cards
<ailo> Firewire is great, if you have a port for it. For now, that is the only type of notebook I could imagine getting for audio use
<ailo> Also since I already have a functioning firewire device
<ailo> We use my friends macbook at times with it, since we only use puredata
<ailo> I'd love to install linux on it, but it's not my hardware, so :D
<Len-nb> ailo, the big plus with the netbook is size. If there was a proper USB2.0 audio standard then I think the max number of inputs likely to be used would be available.
<Len-nb> Really, once I start carrying more than two mics, the size of a notebook computer doesn't matter and the advantage of using a netbook is gone.
<Len-nb> ailo, having said that... the one port (fast even) that every computer has these days is Ethernet. It would be nice to see cheap ethernet sound IFs.
<Len-nb> With an open standard. It should be possible to add an ethernet plug to any of the FW/USB sound IFs now available.
<Len-nb> Just put jack-net on there....
<Len-nb> ailo, how about a little box with two eth connectors and one FW connector.
<Len-nb> ailo, just put a message on the list with some thoughts about latency and workflows.
<ailo> I still don't believe in shutting down stuff that should work
<ailo> Something like the NM should not be causing problems for audio
<ailo> Nothing should
<ailo> I can understand not including processes that are useless on a audio desktop
<Len-nb> I conclude that the few uses where really low latency matters are not uses where networking needs to be on.
<Len-nb> we have talked about a "record mode", but I think it makes more sense to think in terms of latency levels.
<ailo> I don't agree with that
<ailo> I think that is backwards thinking suitable for 2001
<Len-nb> we have a new ISO in our daily.
<ailo> A standard desktop is not causing any problems on most systems
<ailo> I can put 100% load on both my cores, and that will not affect audio performance
<ailo> Or not much
<Len-nb> I agree with that because even my 8 year old desktop has no problems with it.
<ailo> I'm more into not having to do any adjustments at all, and that someone can add stuff to their desktop without breaking audio performance
<ailo> Since xruns aren't caused easily
<ailo> All I need to do is add two config options to the kernel and recompile + add realtime privilege
<ailo> That's it
<ailo> All desktops work just as well. Gnome3, XFCE, Unity
<Len-nb> ailo, for most uses, with latency set to reasonable levels. This netbook is fine.
<ailo> No software that I know of is causing xruns for me
<ailo> Instead of making things complicated for the user, it might be better to solve some techincally complicated problems
<ailo> Since then there would be no need to fix anything from the user side
<ailo> Also, I don't see why LTS 2012 should put too much weight on being compatible with machines from 1002
<ailo> 2002*
<ailo> It's going to be the LTS for 4 years
<ailo> And 4 years from now, computers from 2002 will be 14 years old
<ailo> That's pretty old
<Len-nb> the only use that would cause problems with this netbook are live uses. And really i am not sure that this is the appropriate hardware for that seeing as HW synths are more robust anyway. and so are guitar effects. maybe cheaper too.
<ailo> 5 years back makes more sense to me
<Len-nb> ailo I was not suggesting making 8 year old machines work, only pointing out I have one that does... without any trouble or extra configuration.
<ailo> The older netbooks are a bit like P3 computers, aside from having slightly better graphic cards
<ailo> At least the single core ones
<Len-nb> This Netbook is less than two years old
<Len-nb> The new ones are not any better. They are not made for audio, but for browsing. I would not suggest that an audio distro be based on one.
<ailo> I didn't mean to say we shouldn't support netbooks. I think they are fine, and support reasonable graphic load as well. Their weak point may be processing power, which is not really that much affected by the desktop and its processes in my experience
<Len-nb> It is interesting to see how much can still be done. I just want to see how far I can push it.
<ailo> So, they will perform poorly nevertheless, except they can support a more modern UI
<Len-nb> The nice thing is that they can be used for audio at all. And they can do it reasonably well. One's expectations have to fit the HW.
<Len-nb> ailo, anyway, assuming a reasonably new machine.... what changes should we be making for 12.11 now that there are daily builds...
<Len-nb> ailo, I have been looking qasmixer for audio IF that do not need their own mixer.
<Len-nb> This is not to replace pavucontrol, but to be in the mixers menu
<Len-nb> for use when setting up levels to use with jack.
<ailo> I'll have a look
<ailo> Len-nb: Pretty neat
<ailo> Nice to have both pulse and alsa there
<ailo> Strange things happen when I move the pulse level
<ailo> Both pcm and master are affected
<ailo> I can see that some people would prefer that to the pulsemixer
<Len-nb> ailo, try setting pavucontrol beside and control PA with that while watching what happens to the alsa levels.
<Len-nb> I was not thinking to replace the pulse controller, but the xfce mixer
<ailo> I didn't mean that you should replace it
<ailo> But, I still think some people might use this one more often than pavulcontrol
<Len-nb> It is nice to everything on one page.
<Len-nb> I could even use it for the envy24 for most things.
<ailo> I do think it would be good to have a trouble-shooting helper
<ailo> Sort of like the "record mode" you have been talking about
<ailo> I guess it would be convinient to be able to toggle many things with one button
<ailo> But, I wouldn't want to call it "record mode", since it's really more of a last resort
<ailo> More like a workaround for specific issues
<Len-nb> ailo, "record mode" was not my name for it. just what was being used.
<Len-nb> low latency tweak might be better.
<ailo> I don't think it would get you lower latency either
<ailo> Shutting off NM would only fix issues for normal latency on certain machines
<ailo> It won't lower it for anyone
<ailo> And I don't expect there are any other tweaks that will do that either
<ailo> I don't expect there will be anything that will enhance performance much at all
<ailo> That is why I object to the idea of having a "record mode" button, because it would be falsely suggesting that you do get a performance boost, when most likely it does nothing at all
<ailo> Other than shut down things that you might now need to shut down
<ailo> Just out of nowhere I'm having huge problems with xruns using my builtin card
<Len-nb> ailo,  on this machine minimum latency without NM is -p128 but with, it is 1024 with no xruns. 
<ailo> Len-nb: Yes, and I'd say 128 is quite a high latency on a modern system, so we're not talking about improving latency. More so about fixing an uncommon problem which prevents you from having "normal" operation
<ailo> The goal should be at least 64 on a fairly modern machines, like dual core and onwards
<ailo> 128 to me is a bit too slow
<ailo> Depending on the machine probably, but still
<ailo> Netbooks are a bit like P3 when it comes to processing power, so 128 is probably a good lowest latency for them
<ailo> That's what I would get with a P3 and a realtime kernel, not too long ago
<len-dt> ailo, I will see what I get with the usb IF when I get it. The 128 may be a hardware thing to get away with a cheaper card.
<ailo> 20
<ailo> len-dt: Interesting. The kernel that had "threadirq" put as a config option for the build was giving me xruns like crazy
<ailo> With the rtirq script using that kernel I got the opposite effect of what you would expect
<ailo> I'm on the same exact kernel now with the only diff being that this boot option was not added during the build
<ailo> "threadirqs"*
<ailo> It's the same with using it during boot-time. Just checking to be sure :P. I didn't notice this before
<len-dt> ailo, fun with tuning.
<len-dt> amybe that option turns it off?
<len-dt> s/amybe/maybe/
<ailo> len-dt: No, it turns it on for sure
<ailo> I've found that this machine will start misbehaving with the rtirq script enabled
<ailo> I double-checked with the -lowlatency on Ubuntu Studio, and it's the same thing
<ailo> Don't have the energy to find out why today. But I'm coming to the conclusion that in normal cases the rtirq script is superfluos and should perhaps only be used to fix problems
<ailo> Having it on by default may cause just as many problems as it fixesa
<ailo> Or the script just needs to be edited
<ailo> len-dt: Did you ever try moving moving away the script and try without it?
<ailo> All though, it doesn't fully help because threadirqs are enabled anyway
<len-dt> ailo, no. I haven't. It doesn't seem to hurt this desktop anyway.... well I did move all the pci cards around.
<ailo> We need a kernel to test without that option enabled, but with PREEMPT config
<len-dt> ailo, the web pages to do with it do say that somethings are high with out the script.
<len-dt> USB is kinda wonky anyway. on some machines some of the internal peripherals use USB ports too
<ailo> len-dt: Normally the rtirq script should do nothing at all, since normally you don't have a problem. I never heard of someone getting problems because of it though, and this is the first for me. That is why I would like to see if it is the same for you
<len-dt> ailo, How do I test then?
<len-dt> How do I turn it off?
<ailo> len-dt: First we need a kernel without the threadirqs enabled, since -lowlatency has it hardcoded
<ailo> It's edited into the source code. I checked with abogani before
<ailo> I could build one and pass a link later
<ailo> Maybe tomorrow, or the next day
<len-dt> OK, whenever.
<len-dt> As always I'm not always available...
<ailo> len-dt: What arch btw?
<ailo> No matter. I should build both anyway
<len-dt> ailo, 32 bit... both machines
<len-dt> ailo, I just took out the yamaha rm602 mixer and put the mackie 1604 in... 
<len-dt> there is a big diff in sound even with an avi file.
<ailo> len-dt: That Yamaha looks a bit old :)
<len-dt> The mackie is not much newer actually. It is one of the first 1604s with the 6 mic preamps
<ailo> I have an older Heath & Allen, which can be controlled with a commodore 64. Used to cost a whole lot. Got it cheap some years ago. Killed it unfortunately :(
<ailo> Or is it Allen and Heath?
<len-dt> ailo, the yamaha was made to use with an old cassette porta studio kind of setup.
<ailo> Been mostly using a Behringer, 16 ch mixer. Not bad really
<ailo> len-dt: Ok, so it wasn't exactly top notch
<ailo> With our live setup with the band we're down to using only the firewire device
<len-dt> It was easy to access and hook up when we moved in. There wasn't room for the mackie. Now that I need the phantom power...
<ailo> That and a laptop, + our instruments
<len-dt> Ya mixers are not really needed for recording any more.
<len-dt> less stuff to hook up and everything.
<ailo> I have a couple of really decent preamps, and mics to go with them, so vocals, and anything acoustic stereo is going to sound really ok
<ailo> For the rest it's mostly sm58 and mics like that
<ailo> A couple of audo line CM3's
<len-dt> Thats why I'm getting the ART pre. It is a lot easier to lug around than the mackie.
<ailo> You only need a lot of mics for drums, or when you record stuff live
<len-dt> I started on drums, but I haven't had a kit for years now.... I have an 8pad box and hydrogen...
<len-dt> I kind wish I at least had a snare... so many different sounds depending on how it is played.
<ailo> I'm a drummer too, though I began plauying guitar at the same time. I also play piano. Have a trumpet, but haven't had the time to learn it. Strange instrument :P. Played some violin too
<ailo> So, mostly string instruments and percussion
#ubuntustudio-devel 2012-05-08
<len-dt> hmm interesting. The ART tube pres have to "warm up" for a few min before use. Ok makes sense (been a while since I used tube equipment), but that is not just before using, it is also before plugging into the computer. Or so the manual says.
<len-dt> Spdif rate and USB rate do not have to be the same. And it seems can (not sure why) be used at the same time.
<ailo> len-dt: Perhaps to control another machine that does not support up to 96kHz?
<ailo> I know very little about those things. I've only synced my m-audio cards so far, and I barely knew what I was doing
<len-dt> ailo, well I will be using it for that too. I have a d66 so this will give me 6 analogue inputs should I ever need it... and two tube pres anyway.
<len-dt> I have been reading the online manuals... and saw this...
<len-dt> Though the USB Dual Pre is compatible with USB 1.1
<len-dt> and 2.0 interfaces, USB 2.0 is preferred for the cabling and computer connection as it allows for more
<len-dt> system bandwidth. If you must use a hub, it should be a powered USB 2.0 compliant hub for best
<len-dt> results, This is especially important if you plan on using multiple units for more channels of simulta-
<len-dt> neous digital audio input.
<len-dt> ailo, Looking at that got me thinking... it may be better to buy two or three USB1.1 units or USB2.0 units running as 1.1 than messing with making a 4x4 USB2.0 box.
<len-dt> ailo, I was reading stuff on the RT kernel page... in the FAQ actually and came across this bit:
<len-dt> For example, if a device grabs the PCI bus for long periods during DMA activity, that can introduce significant latencies in the system. In addition some firmwares can stop the system for housekeeping activities via Service Management Interrupts (SMI's) on x86 and x86_64 architectures; SMI's can not be trapped by the OS, so latencies introduced by SMBIOS routines can only be addressed by working with the firmware designers of the motherboard. 
<len-dt> It may have something to do with the xrun/minute (or worse) the netbooks have.
<len-dt> So while the ath9k driver may be open, the wlan TX firmware is set and may not be able to be changed.
<len-dt> I suspect on better systems there is an additional layer of hardware (small processor?) between the TX and the CPU that deals with this stuff outside of the system bus.
<len-dt> anyway I'm going to work now.
<ailo> len-dt: Interesting.
<ailo> In other words, in these cases your hardware sets the limits for you, and there's nothing you can do about it
<ailo> But that would mean the same problem will appear with Windows with other drivers
<ailo> But in your case there's a clear connectin with the software too
<ailo> connection*
<ailo> len-dt: If you ever intend to record more than 4 ch, I'd recommend getting another m-audio, like the LT-1010. Would seem easier than to combine usb with m-audio on two different machines
<ailo> I got my M-66 + LT-1010 working, but rarely do I need them
<len-dt> ailo, I don't know about the windows thing, but it wouldn't surprise me. The sales people who sell the netbooks are very careful to recommend them only for browsing and light use. I suspect they have had too many complaints about what can't be done with them.
<len-dt> I thought about the using more than one usb audio IF and decided ART doesn't know what they are talking about. There is no way to sync more than one interface to another.
<ailo> len-dt: If there's spdif, and the ability to adjust clock from internal to external you should be able to sync it
<len-dt> And... as the netbook is marginal for audio anyway
<len-dt> The IF I am looking at has spdif out but not in. I can use it to get 6 audio ins from my d66
<ailo> If you want both devices controlled by the same machine you need a custom alsa config at least
<ailo> I only know that you can use two of the same chip on the same machine, synced, on the same audio server
<len-dt> alsa has trouble with more than one card at a time in anycase even when they are synced.
<len-dt> alsa wants to have one control for the card and so when combining cards alsa only sees the control section of one card.
<len-dt> can cause the odd hicup.
<len-dt> Jack needs to be set up to see more than one card at a time. Jack is a "pro" audio setup and as such should realize there are audio cards designed to sync for that purpose.
<len-dt> ailo, I would consider it a jack bug that two cards can not be used by jack at the same time
<ailo> len-dt: http://www.jrigg.co.uk/linuxaudio/ice1712multi.html
<ailo> That's how I got my m-audio cards synced. It worked, but I didn't fool around much with it
<len-dt> Thats about what I have seen before.
<ailo> OSS is much easier when it comes to that, I noticed while using puredata in the past
<ailo> You can have any number of cards enabled at the same time
<ailo> For puredata that's fine, as long as you don't use any other programs
<ailo> Didn't much look at how well it performed latency wise though
<len-dt> ailo, I notice none of thew alsa configs on that page do controls stuff. That may be why it works. Set stuff with mudita24 and just use jack to move audio data.
<len-dt> It does say there were/are problems with this setup and the RT kernel.
<len-dt> but low latency should be ok.
<len-dt> ailo, That page seems to suggest that for the delta series cards the spdif link is better that the word clock.
<len-dt> ailo, I like this mod... http://www.jrigg.co.uk/elec/interface.html
<len-dt> Actually someone did that with three ensoniq cards successfully too.
<len-dt> ailo, on the page you gave me, did you see the last paragraph?
<ailo> len-dt: Yeah. But, I didn't do enough testing myself to see if I had the same problem
<len-dt> I thought you were saying things where worse with the rtirq script... was that the same machine ailo ?
<ailo> len-dt: Same machine as what?
<len-dt> With the two delta cards
<ailo> len-dt: No. I synced the two cards on a different machine. One that does not seem to change behaviour with or without threadirqs and rtirq
<len-dt> ailo, just checking...
<ailo> len-dt: I guess you read on the devel list about the kernel
<ailo> It would really make things simpler for us
<len-dt> I am just finishing it up... 
<len-dt> Yes it would be nice to just have it build auto.
<ailo> Can't say I have gone through every kernel config option to see what it does, but just reading about the shortly, it seems they are set right
<len-dt> I have also been doing some reading on the realtime kernel. There are some interesting things.
<ailo> Ubuntu Studio would only need to maintain the config options, and just that is a bit of work
<len-dt> ailo, There may be one more thing in the kernel config to change that may help midi.
<ailo> len-dt: Yes?
<len-dt> it was a timer thing... I'm looking...
<len-dt> Try enabling tickless timer support (CONFIG_NO_HZ)
<len-dt> this is from the realTimeConfigQuickScan.pl
<len-dt> script from http://wiki.linuxmusicians.com/doku.php?id=system_configuration
<ailo> len-dt: I've been meaning to take a look at that
<ailo> So far, I haven't commented on configs I'm not sure about
<ailo> Would be good to see what the difference is
<len-dt> Thts the only thing other than the kernel not being real time that the script complains about.
<ailo> So far, with the configs that are default to both Ubuntu and Debian kernels, and adding just two configs, I get what I need
<len-dt> It also complains about some other system configs though...
<ailo> Yeah, about the hard disks
<len-dt> looks for noatime
<len-dt> scaling_governor
<ailo> Yeah
<len-dt> Checking swappiness... 60 - not good
<len-dt> ** vm.swappiness is larger than 10
<len-dt> set it with '/sbin/sysctl -w vm.swappiness=10'
<ailo> I think those we need to test
<len-dt> Checking checking sysctl inotify max_user_watches... < 524288 - not good
<len-dt> Checking access to the high precision event timer... not readable - not good
<len-dt> /dev/hpet found, but not readable.
<len-dt> Checking access to the real-time clock... not readable - not good
<len-dt> /dev/rtc found, but not readable.
<ailo> It's a good page, but for me, aside from not having tested midi much, I can't say any of those configs make a difference for me
<ailo> But it would be good to test and see
<ailo> And look at implementing them for US
<ailo> Can't say I've done much studio recording with linux though
<len-dt> Setting the governer to performance may help my netbook.
<ailo> So, the hard disk option I haven't really tested in practice
<ailo> len-dt: I've only shortly looked at how the governor works, and mostly it's at maximum
<ailo> For me
<ailo> But yeah, perhaps
<ailo> It won't be idle much when you're active at least
<len-dt> There is supposed to be a newer style coming out that looks at dsp load as well.
<len-dt> The problem with the governer is that it is scalable and can kick in even at as much as 50% cpu (maybe more... going from memory) I can record my first track or two at 20% or less.
<ailo> I still haven't put my machines up for testing. Been having some router issues
<ailo> But, this is exactly why I'm putting them up, so I guess it's just to start testing away
<len-dt> The swappiness thing concerns me too. Though I haven't seen the effects of it. Basically, it seems to be saying that even though there is 70% of memory left we will start swapping things out anyway.
<len-dt> But I would think in an audio chain everything is in constant use which should hold it in memory anyway.
<ailo> len-dt: I guess that might become a problem when loading lots of samples
<ailo> I could see what happens using 512MB of memory.
<ailo> I mean, on a machine with 512MB RAM
<len-dt> ailo, it would be hard to detect if that was causing problems or not. In audio, then general thing is to run everything in memory... like no swap at all.
<ailo> Ok, so while some things might get sluggish, audio won't?
<len-dt> ailo no, what I mean is a good audio setup would be to have no swap memory configured.
<len-dt> Swap and low latency do not go hand in hand...
<ailo> Maybe we should start a wiki page discussing these possible configurations
<len-dt> Your example with the sampler ailo was great, each octave might have different samples, or even every third octave. So a sample may sit not being used long enough that it gets swapped out.
<len-dt> ailo, video editing may have similar problems.
<len-dt> ailo should we start another wiki page about it? or just ask questions on the ones out there about audio already?
<ailo> len-dt: Much of these things could be things that the user might want to toggle, or tweak, so that brings again up the discussion on having a -controls application to do this.
<ailo> len-dt: I have lost orientation on what pages are out there right now. It's a bit hard to keep track
<ailo> There's nothing in the Ubuntu Studio wiki page that links to anything relevant I think
<len-dt> Yup, controls is good. maybe even more important than workflow stuff. I don't know half of what is out there let alone keeping track of it :P
<ailo> len-dt: I realized earlier that ubuntustudio-controls is available in the repo for precise. I thought it had been removed
<ailo> It will override jackd's /etc/security/limits.d/audio.cong file, if used
<ailo> And the firewire stuff doesn't apply anymore
<ailo> I'm thinking about what would be a good title for the page. Primarily I think it's about evaluting what things apply to a ubuntustudio-settings meta
<ailo> And if a -controls application is created, it should belong to that group
<ailo> ubuntustudio-settings testing?
<ailo> Or just ubuntustudio-settings, and make a subpage for testing etc
<ailo> Going to see what the package ubuntustudio-default-settings contains
<len-dt> default-settings is mostly look and feel stuff ailo.
<ailo> len-dt: Seems so
<ailo> Perhaps a ubuntustudio-audio-settings, or ubuntustudio-multimedia-settings?
<len-dt> workflow-settings or a settings for each workflow.
<len-dt> ailo, So ya, audio-setting, videa-settings, graphic-settings.
<ailo> I don't like the workflow term in this situation, since it's not really about changing settings depending on worklow, but more about optimizing for at least audio, but perhaps also video, as you suggested
<ailo> Well, I guess that works
<ailo> Since I don't do a lot of graphics and video, I tend not to consider those
<ailo> Just because I don't even know what would benefit them
<len-dt> ailo, workflow is a bad term yes, as there are broad workflows and narrow workflows and it just gets confusing.
<ailo> Ok, so if we begin pages for those three, I know at least one that I would like to start filling :P
<len-dt> ailo, I am the same. audio is what I know. But I feel very much like the video/graphics/photo part of our distro are largely ignored.
<ailo> I think so too. It would be good to have someone on board who knows more about those. If we do start pages for them, we could at least do some research on what might be missing from US
<len-dt> Ya, there was at least someone who was talking about monitor calibration
<len-dt> Gotta go for now...
<ailo> len-dt: Ok. I'll put the pages up, call them: audio-settings, video-settings and graphic-settings. The links will be under https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/. I'll just add a few lines of text for now
<ailo> len-dt: I put up the pages and made it somewhat easy to orientate by adding parent links. I put links for them in https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/TeamResources.
<knome> it's a bit of work, but think of starting to use a "header menu" like xubuntu does: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu
<knome> ( https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Toolbox/Menu is simply included from every page )
<ailo> knome: Thanks for the tip
<knome> ailo, no problem :)
<knome> ailo, the big hard work is in the beginning
<knome> after that, it's sooo easy to change the menu in all the pages since it's included :)
<ailo> knome: That is definately something I've missed
<knome> hehe, yeah
<knome> it's not obvious
<knome> and of course, you need to add the include in any new page you create
<knome> but that's the easy part :)
<knome> we are just undergoing a huge wiki cleanup too - most done though
<knome> that's why the front page is so clean!
<ailo> It looks very clean and orderly
<knome> i've been pushing any things that users might want to read - including instructions on how to contribute - to xubuntu.org
<knome> the wiki serves as things that only developers need
<len-dt> ailo, I have to fix your page already...
<len-dt> ailo, You have "graphic-settings - testing and documenting possible configs for audio users "
<len-dt> ailo, I have changed it to: "graphic-settings - testing and documenting possible configs for graphics and photography users"
<ailo> len-dt: Yeah, that was bound to happen. I was copying the same text for all the pages
<ailo> I added a kernel category for audio-settings
<len-dt> Ok
<len-dt> ailo, We may wish to list what we have done so far that goes beyond Ubuntu vanilla, what we have read or heard that might be good, and then which of those things we at US think we should actually change and why.
<len-dt> The why would include testing and results.
<ailo> len-dt: Yeah. I put a release page for 12.04 on audio-testing, which I thought we could do for all the pages later, to document what is in this release
<ailo> Not only for our own sake, but for anyone who later wishes to join the team
<len-dt> ailo, does that need to go to another page? or is the list short enough for inline?
<ailo> It's probably not a long list, but I think at least we should separate stuff made for a single release
<len-dt> Or could we have a short point form list inline and a more detailed set on the other page? I was thinking that if it is on the same page, it is easy to compair where things have been and gone and are going.
<knome> remember you can include pages, even sections of pages
<knome> if you want to assemble different stuff together later
<len-dt> Makes sense
<knome> my take is: make the structure as logical as possible
<ailo> We can always organize things around later. Perhaps we should not make pages subpages to subpages as I have done though
<len-dt> My wife puts things away in a logical order... I've just never figured out what that logic is.
<knome> len-dt, lol
<ailo> If everything is named /UbuntuStudio/pagename, then we can put things in any order we want
<knome> as long as everything related to say, testing, is under US/Testing/, it's relatively fine :)
<len-dt> I think what knome is saying is that we can make things separate pages and then use some command to have a part of those separate pages appear on a main page.
<micahg> you can do includes in the wiki
<knome> our page tree can be seen at: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Cleanup
<knome> micahg, as i've said ;)
<micahg> knome: ah, sorry
<knome> micahg, if you have time by any means this week, try to sit down with pleia2 and talk a bit about our pages about development in the wiki+website
<ailo> len-dt: I got that, but if we want to reorqanize all the pages later, it would help not naming them as deterministically as I have done for subpages
<len-dt> This is a little bit beyond the plain html I learned (3.0)
<ailo> Everything will relate to UbuntuStudio, so at least have that as the root
<knome> "what is the most usual use case/way of looking at data X"
<knome> ^ that's another good starting point for organizing stuff
<knome> especially in the ubuntu wiki, since it's damn slow, and you don't want to do kinky stuff all the time ;)
<ailo> To begin with, we need to collect all the configs we can find for audio. List them, and add links to relevant pages. 
<len-dt> ailo, I am thinking when looking at audio settings that rather than having just the word "kernel", put "Ubuntu Studio uses the Ubuntu kernel with low latency settings enabled"
<len-dt> Then the linked to page could have the specifics about how.
<ailo> It also involves discussion about the -rt kernel
<len-dt> That way without following the link the reader has an idea of why the kernel is mentioned
<ailo> But, you could add some descriptive text after the link
<ailo> kernel - description
<len-dt> Ya, like that.
<ailo> Well, it's late. Better use a fresh mind tomorrow, and add some stuff. I like the strategy to first have a look at what we already have, and then as you said, have a look at what we don't have.
<ailo> Only later start thinking about testing and applying
<len-dt> ok ailo have a good rest. I'll be home tomorrow... sick again...
#ubuntustudio-devel 2012-05-09
<ailo> len-dt: Get better. Feel free to rewrite everything if you want :)
<len-dt> ailo, I am sure it will take several rewrites...
<len-dt> holstein, heard you (ok saw) talking about mics other channel.
<len-dt> interesting.
<holstein> len-dt: hehe
<holstein> i had talked gear with that cat before
<holstein> those mics are awful though
<holstein> i have been there
<len-dt> Just bought a realatively cheap mic... at2020.
<holstein> buying like $50-$70 crap gear
<holstein> by the time i have 3 or 4 pieces, i could have just gotten an at2020
<holstein> and been happy with it
<holstein> not that i have one of those, but i know they are decent
<len-dt> sounds not to bad. But anyway. Just for people like that guy... there are three mics the at2020, at 2035, at 2050
<holstein> len-dt: i dont think you need to spend several grand necessarily to get a "good" sound
<holstein> but, you cant make a dollar out of 15 cents
<len-dt> the price range is $100 to about 280
<holstein> yeah... sometimes you see that 2020 paired with something
<holstein> headphones.. speakers... another mic
<holstein> its a good value mic i think
<holstein> and durable
<holstein> and theres a USB version if memory serves
<len-dt> but they are all the same capsule. the difference is that the 2050 has two of them for pattern change. the 2035 has pad and roll off. the 2020 is bare.
<holstein> i think a USB mic is too "uni-tasking" for my taste.. but its a cheap way to get in the computer clean
<holstein> len-dt: ive used one in the 4000's
<len-dt> What I am saying I guess, is that the difference between a $300 dollar single capsule mic and the 2050 might be pretty big. The single capsule mic at that price is probably a lot better.
<len-dt> even though they are about the same price.
<len-dt> Or perhaps I am saying the cheapest mic in the series is often the best deal ... if used right.
<len-dt> holstein, If a fig8 pattern is needed, or your lead vocal is a screamer who can't resist eating the mic... pattern and pad switches might be worth something ;-)
<holstein> len-dt: AT makes good stuff too
<holstein> good reputation
<len-dt> holstein, a USB mic is a bad idea. It locks the computer to one track. It can not be used along side another interface at the same time because of sync issues.
<holstein> len-dt: agreed
<holstein> but, for that "podcaster" or the person who doesnt have a preamp... might be the most cost effective
<len-dt> I heard lots of good stuff about the at2035. There were non in stock though, but I realize the 2020 is the same without the pad and rolloff. I'm not renting out ;-) 
<holstein> i use a little AT pro35x live often for my bass
<holstein> live and recording sometimes
<holstein> that was around $100
<holstein> and i beat it up on the road too
<len-dt> holstein, it does sound nice :-) I am happy with it. It sounds more open than the dynamics I spent $250 on way back.
<holstein> sometime, when i asee a good deal, im going to get a pair of the 2020's
<holstein> i was going to get a pair, then i saw the rode nt5's on sale and went with them
<holstein> i like rode.. and im happy with them
<len-dt> pvm 520NTs I think. I was single and had money back then ;-)
<holstein> really differnt mics though... i already have a nice large diaphragm condencer i like
<holstein> the nt5's fill out my collection a little better
<holstein> len-dt: hehe
<len-dt> holstein, my wife, who has never used much more than sub sm58 mics... was really impressed with the at2020...
<len-dt> shes a singer, i'm a player..
<holstein> nie
<holstein> nice*
<holstein> yeah... the 2020 is not *that* much more than those other crap mics either
<len-dt> I paid $100 canadian
<holstein> still, that guy wants to get a $10,000 project from free software and a $40 mic
<holstein> its just not realistic or practical
<holstein> len-dt: i actually linked him/her the 2020 the first time
<len-dt> holstein, I looked the mic he wants up. It was $70 or so the one I saw, but it came with a case and a fancy "looking" mic holder, so thge mic must be much cheaper than that. My at2020 is a bare mic.
<len-dt> holstein, sometimes the way to learn is to spend money and fail. He may learn something about recording along the way. may find out it is not something hes ready for... it is a lot different than stage work.
<holstein> len-dt: im afraid he will just have a sub-par time in linux and get frustrated
<len-dt> I found I can record someone else not to bad, but not myself.
<holstein> if i have time, i can do OK
<len-dt> holstein, I think he will have a sub-par time where ever.
<holstein> len-dt: lol
<len-dt> I play a lot better now than I did in 1974, hes just starting recording, it takes practice too.
<len-dt> holstein, anyway, I should go eat.
<holstein> len-dt: right on! ...bon appetite
<Len-nb> holstein, ailo about ardour and their policy. I have a suggestion.
<Len-nb> our version is ubuntu specific or debian?
<ailo> I believe it's debian
<ailo> Not sure though
<ailo> Len-nb: Do: apt-cache show ardour | grep Maintainer:
<ailo> It should say Debian Multimedia Team
<ailo> It should say Debian Multimedia Maintainers*
<micahg> yeah, we have the Debian version unchange
<Len-nb> I wonder if they would be willing to change the name of the *desktop file.
<micahg> *unchanged
<Len-nb> that way, a user could drop in the stock ardour package if they wanted support on the ardour site and it would not interfere with the one we installed.
<ailo> I haven't really followed what the issue was with that
<ailo> Len-nb: Have you subscribed to the debian multimedia list(s)?
<ailo> You could drop a suggestion on their mail list
<Len-nb> ailo, a user who asks for help at ardour who tells them they are running ubuntu, first gets told install the version from the ardour site or we won't talk to you.
<ailo> And the same goes for Debian?
<Len-nb> Any self compiled version.
<Len-nb> The dev wants to know exactly what they are working with, not what some other person might have done to make it work with other libs or add extra features.
<Len-nb> It sounds nasty, but I can understand it.
<Len-nb> ailo, honestly, any modern machine has the diskspace for a static build. I don't know about memory... 
<ScottL> len-dt, you can talk to quadrispro when you see him in channel, he's an awesomely awesome debian multimedia mainatiner
<Len-nb> ScottL, I will. and I am not even thinking that the debian version has the slightest problem either. We have a people problem...
<Len-nb> The best place for a US user of ardour to get help should still be at ardour. But right now it is not.
<Len-nb> Making US so that either or will work means that support is better.
<Len-nb> Ardour's version installs in it's own directory in /opt already. The only thing that might collide with the debian version is the desktop file... though ardour tends to include version info in theirs.
<Len-nb> ailo, micahg do either of you use a virtual box for testing? Have you heard of a bug with the intel HD sound emulation?
<Len-nb> there is a user on #ubuntustudio who says ac97 works ok but not HD.
<micahg> I used to use that, maybe talk to debfx, he maintains it in Debian I believe
<Len-nb> micahg, the user has corrected me... it is a problem with a hardware install. Sorry.
<ailo> I use virtualbox sometimes, but I've found it's not reliable for testing installs and a few other things. 
<ailo> Nice way to try different distros, just to get an inside look
<ailo> Not really suitable for multimedia anyway
<Len-nb> ailo, it seems the user was mixing up more than one problem. Not a native english speaker or writer. he is running on hardware now.
<Len-nb> ailo_, Tried all the stuff on the linuxmusicians web page on my netbook. None of them seemed to help with my xrun/min problem. PCI latency seems to turn itself off. I can see it being set to 64 with dmesg but when I list it they are all 0. So PCIe interfaces
<Len-nb> ailo_, before I do anything else, like figure out how to stop and start NM from user space (though I may do that for the fun of it anyway), I will wait till I have tried it with a good USB audio IF to see if it is something with the internal audio chipset.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2012-05-10
<ailo_> Len-nb: Most of those settings I guess are only valuable for certain tasks
<ailo_> There's one for midi (timer), one for multi track recording (disk)
<ailo_> rtirq is good for solving the type of headache that you have, all though it does not seem to solve it for you
<ailo_> We should put together a list of things to test
<ailo_> Multitrack recording, live audio processing. I guess a bit workflow based
<ailo_> Didn't do much today for the wiki today. Haven't had the time. 
<ailo_> Another day tomorroq
<ailo_> We could automate the test with a script
<ailo_> Get some measurement data from what is measurable
<ailo_> Anyway, gn
<len-dt> ailo_, ondemand/performance (cpu throttling) gets reset to ondemand on my netbook. Maybe by powerd or something. I need to look more.
<len-dt> network-manager starts some things that it does not stop. Rebooting with NM disabled is wonderful, stopping NM (and wireless BTW) is worse.
<len-dt> Cron, anacron and atd can be stopped by changing runlevel. This is probably more important than we might guess as it is much more random, having apt update it self in the middle of a session could be a pain.
<len-dt> Hydrogen uses very little resources compared to (other) sound generators
<len-dt> I was able to run 5 synths at the same time (cpu60%) with no problem. (-p 128 as low as I can start Jack)
<ailo_> Hudrogen mostly plays samples, but I'm sure you can make it use more cpu if you add some fx to it
<ailo_> Hydrogen*
<len-dt> The reason I could only run that many is because I ran out of memory and swap.
<ailo_> len-dt: The cpu throttling gets reset during your login?
<len-dt> I mean swap became a problem
<len-dt> I am not sure when cpu throttling get s set
<len-dt> Just that it did not seem to end up where I left it.
<ailo_> Aught to be a default config for it to be set somewhere. I haven't dabbled much with it
<ailo_> So, what other implicactions are there in changning runlevel?
<len-dt> Run levels 2345 are all the same right now. So changing the config for cron like stuff just affects them.
<len-dt> I used *.override files so the original files are untouched.
<len-dt> That is installing a config change can be unistalled.
<len-dt> Because of my memory limitations, the PA-jack bridge wasn't really a problem.
<len-dt> ailo_, I think though that memory is cheap enough that upgrading to at least 2G ram could be a strongly suggested first improvement.
<len-dt> I was using virt/keyboard to stress test, so a max of 4 notes polyphony was the best I could do.
<len-dt> I will try tracking when I get the USB audio IF. Down the road... I am deciding if I should get a usb midi if or a USB KB. I have a lot of little midi KB around already though.
<len-dt> ailo_, I'm off to work today... bye now.
<ailo_> 2GB seems like a minimum for a typical linux based OS right now
<ailo_> Perhaps not for everything audio related, but just for the usual programs, like firefox and chrome
<ailo_> A P3 will often have a maximum 512MB limit, or maybe 1GB, so they are barely usable anymore
<ailo_> Also, finding graphic cards for them that you can use to just browse the web is hardly worth the trouble
<ailo_> netbooks may have less processing power then your usual PC, but the other components are up to date, and you can usually install at least 2GB RAM
<ailo_> So, I agree. 2GB is a good lowest limit to recommend at this time
<ailo_> For people who like to work with large sample libraries, you need at least 4GB, or more
<len-dt> ailo_, what does memlock do?
<len-dt> I guess what I am asking ... is there a way for an app to say don't swap this out?
<len-dt> I wonder what the max memory a netbook can take is...
<holstein> i have 2gb's in one of mine
<holstein> the one that i use only for field recording has 1gb
<ailo_> len-dt: Don't know exactly what memlock does. I just know you can use it to lock down memory for @audio applications. If you want anything other than unlimited, you need to specify it manually
<ailo_> I think you specify with KB, not MB. Don't remember. The Ubuntustudio-controls application does this correctly, only it edits the wrong file
<ailo_> I've just spent days programming something that more or less already existed right in front of me :(
<ailo_> Sometimes, not always, it can be good to take the long way around
<len-dt> holstein, 1 Gig for recording would be fine. I am trying to find out what the limits of the device are and found that with midi softsynths, memory ran out before cpu power.
<len-dt> holstein, I'm just testing more as a documentation project than anything. I can at least recognize the difference between not enough memory and not enough cpu, some users can't.
<len-dt> holstein, I think for my use, two tracks of recording will be about as much as I ever do.
<len-dt> ailo_, according to what I can find on some of the mysql pages, memlock locks the memory used by a process in memory and prevents it from being swapped out.
<len-dt> The downside of using memlock, is that on running out of memory, the kernel starts killing processes :-)
<len-dt> ailo_, none the less, it would make sense to me that any audio software that is well made, would use memlock for at least the thread that does the audio work.
<len-dt> ailo_, That being so, the swappiness value may have less effect than it would seem.
<astraljava> Set it to 0?
<len-dt> ailo_, also, the user should be aware of how close to swap they are when using their machine for realtime uses anyway... or at least that there is such a problem.
<len-dt> ailo_, we, through the jack install, set memlock to unlimited for audio devices/applications that know how to use it, but each application sets what it wants as well.
<ailo_> len-dt: Then I the issue must be that without /etc/security/limits.d/audio.conf the user cannot  start a process which will use memlock
<ailo_> The same as with rtprio
<ailo_> I've been asking around for another way to grant those privileges to processes, but it seems pam is what many prefer
<len-dt> astraljava, The standard swappiness is 60, suggested for audio is 10... that is start swapping when 10% memory is left. But well written audio apps should lock their memory anyway...
<astraljava> len-dt: Yep.
<ailo_> There are some people that prefer not using memlock unlimited, since that may cause a system freeze, when using up all resources
<len-dt> ailo_, There is that too, but we set it. And the page a got the swappiness from setts it too.
<ailo_> But to set it at any other level we need a startup script that measures memory, and sets something like 95% instead
<ailo_> Or less
<len-dt> ailo_, hyrdogen uses enough lock that it needs to be very close to unlimmited on "my" !Gig machine.
<len-dt> ailo_, it seems a sliding scale would work... 95% for a 1Gig machine, 75% for a 2Gig and 50% for higher.
<ailo_> In that case, maybe 95% would cover all of them
<ailo_> Since 5% is quite a big chunk on larger memory sizes
<len-dt> ailo_, Ok, I just thought that the sizes we would likely see are 1, 2 and 4G so 950m, 1.5G and 2G for anything else would work...
<ailo_> People who use big sample libraries will use more than 2GB easily
<ailo_> Don't know about video processing
<len-dt> ailo_, point.
<ailo_> I wold think unlimited is just fine, unless it didn't cause any danger, as it seems to do
<ailo_> las thinks unlimited is preferred, and ardour will object if you don't have that (or something close to it)
<ailo_> But they may have changed that
<len-dt> ailo_, I have pushed it as hard as I could, but I think some of my audio apps do not use memlock.
<len-dt> an application does not look for unlimited, but a certain amount I think. Still, it may look at what there is and ask for all of it.
<ailo_> ardour pops up a warning message, or used to at least. Haven't tested for a while
<ailo_> So, it's a lookup think during ardour startup, to tell the user what settings it prefers
<len-dt> ailo_, something like that should be settable. but it seems that while an app may say it needs x amount of memlock, it doesn't take it till it needs it. So hydrogen asks for 900M or so, but runs with a lot less and is ok with other apps using/locking what it is not using.
<len-dt> Looking at some of the cpu shield stuff for multi-core machines was quite interesting and could be of use to audio stuff.
<len-dt> basically, they move all the system procs to one cpu and use the other cpu(s) for one user's processes with RT.
<len-dt> ailo_, that way there is always one cpu running system stuff that can control things like shutdowns and kills.
<len-dt> ailo_, anyway, all those little changes did seem to help with the stability of all my softsynths running at the same time.
<len-dt> However, I think they should be mostly "if you need them" kinds of things not default.
<ailo_> len-dt: Interesting. I was trying to find out how to set memlock. Not on Ubuntu now. If you'd like to see quickly, install ubuntustudio-controls. Use it to set your memlock to something small, like 50% or less. The change will appear in /etc/security/limits.conf. Take the values form that file, delete the @audio entries and add the memlock amount to /etc/security/limits.d/audio.conf instead
<ailo_> If you like, you can quickly edit the python file for that program, so it will edit the right file
<ailo_> len-dt: It's a line in the pythonfile called ubuntustudio-controls. I don't remember where it ends up, but the file is this:
<ailo_>  memlock = ChangeSettings("/etc/security/limits.conf", "@audio\s-\smemlock (\d*)", "")
<ailo_> The line, I mean
<ailo_> Er...
<len-dt> ailo_, search of the file name in other words..
<ailo_> It's either /usr/share/ubuntustudio/ubuntustudio or a python folder
<ailo_> I guess for just tweaking memlock, it might be useful to use that app for now
<ailo_> I did a whole new ubuntustudio-controls a bit over a year ago, but it was a bit hacky, even if it worked. So, I had a chance to do some python coding with gtk
<ailo_> len-dt: Anyway, if you just replace the "/etc/security/limits.conf" with "/etc/security/limits.d/audio.conf" you'll be happier using ubuntustudio-controls for tweaking memory
<ailo_> The other controls you don't need to touch
<len-dt> ailo_, For me... manual is almost easier ;-)  I think we want it do some more things before it gets used in release though.
<ailo_> ubuntustudio-controls is in the repo
<ailo_> At least the last time I checked
<len-dt> I know, but not this release... I think.
<ailo_> I saw it the last time I looked
<len-dt> Yup, still there.
<ailo_> So use it. At least it's good for something :)
<len-dt> Ok, so why am I changing memlock from unlimited again?  :-)
<ailo_> len-dt: You could see what happens when you start ardour for example.
<len-dt> Ja, yust yolking..
<ailo_> Also, it will let you know the right way to edit memlock
<len-dt> what does "enable raw1394 access do? Or is that now in group audio?
<ailo_> len-dt: It's the old way to enable firewire
<len-dt> ailo_, I don't have firewire stuff anyway
<ailo_> Was still needed for 10.04
<ailo_> The old firewire stack
<len-dt> OK, and nice doesn't really do anything seeing as our audio apps aren't nice anyway ;-)
<ailo_> Since then, there's a udev rules file that identifies all known devices and gives them access through @audio group. ffado is talking about adding that to their source now
<ailo_> Yeah, I don't know if nice was ever needed. Hasn't been used for a while
<len-dt> ailo_, is ffado stuff being added to alsa as well?
<ailo_> len-dt: That's what I've heard.
<len-dt> ailo_, what direction is US going? Or is tha on hold till after web page release?
<ailo_> len-dt: What do you mean with direction?
<len-dt> What are we trying to accomplish this cycle. I sort of have some ideas... but there seems to be no real roadmap.
<ailo_> For my own sake, I'm in this mostly to make sure Ubuntu and all its derivatives are more easily made audio capable. To me, that is a responsibility US has, since it's in the main repo. I recognize that US is it's own distro, with it's own goals, but for me, I have already enough to think about with the former to be able to contribute to both for a long time
<ailo_> len-dt: I'm sure ScottL will start making one shortly.
<ailo_> A roadmap, I mean. He was asking for ideas a few weeks ago
<len-dt> ailo_, Ok. That would explain why you are most vocal just now :-)
<ailo_> Like you, I'm getting some ideas recentlyu
<len-dt> Ja he was and writing things down in a list... but I guess we are waiting for it to be somewhere I can see it.
<ailo_> I think ScottL is just occupied with the Ubuntu get together right now
<len-dt> And the web page... which to be fair all of us want to see ASAP.
<len-dt> I should probably sit and fix up the menu some more. So that when audio/video/graphic/photo apps we don't ship get added the menu listing ends up in the right place.
<len-dt> ailo_, I am thinking we may want an audio utilities submenu as well. Depends what everyone else thinks though. I will just fix what we have now for now.
<ailo_> len-dt: btw, I just read something where the maintainer who takes care of ardour, and a bunch of other packages claims that Ubuntu does some subtle changes to those
<len-dt> ailo_, That is why I think we should make it as easy as possible to run both versions
<ailo_> I meant the maintainer of the Debian packages
<ailo_> So, they are not unchanged, according to him
<len-dt> What kind of changes?
<len-dt> I expect to make it use whatever libs we have. So we don't have to run two...
<ailo_> len-dt: I was thinking about just doing a simple diff between packages to see what sort of differences there are
<ailo_> Downloading now
<len-dt> The ardour realease is static. Our libs change almost with the weather, but are (hopefully) more secure
<len-dt> ailo_, ubuntustudio-controls does not work well with our stock audio.conf file: 
<len-dt> len@music:/etc/security/limits.d$ cat audio.conf 
<len-dt> # Provided by the jackd package.
<len-dt> #
<len-dt> # Changes to this file will be preserved.
<len-dt> #
<len-dt> # If you want to enable/disable realtime permissions, run
<len-dt> #
<len-dt> #    dpkg-reconfigure -p high jackd
<len-dt> @audio   -  rtprio     95
<len-dt> @audio   -  memlock    unlimited
<len-dt> @audio - memlock 975007
<len-dt> #@audio   -  nice      -19
<len-dt> ailo_, you can see that it does not remove the old (sorry original) value.
<ailo_> len-dt: I guess cause it's not identical with the spacing
<len-dt> ailo_, is there a difference between 100% and unlimited as far as apps are concerned?
<ailo_> len-dt: Just remove the unlimited line all together, and it should work
<ailo_> len-dt: I don't think so, except that ardour let's the user know that it would prefer something else
<ailo_> If it still does that
<len-dt> ailo_, I will test...
<ailo_> len-dt: I just looked at the ubuntu version of ardour-i686. It does say that the maintainers are from Ubuntu
<ailo_> len-dt: I suppose you'll need to log out and log in again for changes to take effect too
<len-dt> Ja, but one of the better places to get help is at ardour.
<ailo_> orignal maintainers are Debian. There were quite a few diffs
<ailo_> len-dt: I'm not arguing that. I'm just trying to find out what the deal is with the Ubuntu version
<ailo_> If one would decide that ardour in Debian or Ubuntu repo is not up to par, I'd rather fix the one we have than ask users to download manually
<ailo_> Another option would be not to include it all, which would be strange
<len-dt> ailo_, my personal feeling is that US should ship what is on our repo, but freely encourage people to use ardours if they want to.... and please tell us if there is something that work in the ardour one that doesn't in ours.
<ailo_> Yeah. But what about the desktop file btw? Doesn't it work as it is?
<len-dt> Ours should be the same from any use point of view. But use less memory.
<len-dt> I am not sure, it works with ardour3b3, I don't know about ardour2rel though.
<len-dt> ailo_, I will have to download it and see.
<len-dt> I made a copy of our ardour.desktop just in case.
<len-dt> The real reason there is no support for ubuntu/debian users is that they don't have to navigate through tons of beg screens. Even downloading from the ardour site they say there is no support for linux users who pay $0 dollars.
<len-dt> ailo_, Oh, and by the way, the "free" version "The free version of Ardour 2.8.12 for OS X Intel does not support saving AudioUnit plugin settings, or using presets for AudioUnit plugins. If you prefer a version without this limitation, please return to the previous page and choose to make a financial contribution to the project."
<ailo_> len-dt: Though you can always build it yourself of course. 
<len-dt> Ah, wrong download
<len-dt> That was the OS X version. I was wondering what a dmg file was... 
<len-dt> ailo_, The linux version is complete.
<len-dt> I could build it... but I would still have no support. They only want to talk to people who have downloaded their static build and paid something.
<astraljava> Non-free support is one thing, and totally acceptable. But ridding features from free releases... meh.
<len-dt> Ja, I notice _not_ from the linux releases, but from the OS x releases.
<len-dt> I guess MAC owners are used to it...
<len-dt> And $5 is a lot less than what they normally pay for anything.
<astraljava> Perhaps. I do not intend to pay for any, though.
<astraljava> I'd rather fight with the compiling etc.
<knome> hey astraljava :)
<astraljava> o/
<len-dt> As long we are willing to give freely of our own stuff, why would I pay?
<astraljava> Exactly.
<len-dt> ailo_, I don't know where they put their *.desktop files... still it doesn't seem to interfere with ours.
<ailo_> len-dt: I'd be more concerned with the /bin file, but maybe that doesn't conflict either
<ailo_> I've forgotten what their version of ardour2 is like
<ailo_> /usr/bin/*, I mean, if it has one
<len-dt> bin file is in /opt/ardourwhatever/bin
<ailo_> ok
<ailo_> las offers quite a lot of support, and I would think a lot of it is free too
<len-dt> So US should be saying we will help as we can, but if you need more help you will need to pay for it at ardour and install that version. It should work just like ours... please let us know otherwise.
<len-dt> Actually pay for it can be $1
<ailo_> There's other means of support too, like the floss manual
<ailo_> http://www.flossmanuals.net/ardour/
<len-dt> I would have to send a cheque... no pay pal no way...
<ailo_> It would be good to look around for more of such manuals and save their links
<ailo_> There's a lot of docs out there, but a lot of users don't know about it
<len-dt> Anyway. I'm out for a bit.
<len-dt> Its pick kids up time.
<ailo_> Why not dollar bills, lol
<len-dt> ailo_, we don't have any dollar bills any more... or deuces either..., but yes I get the point.
<knome> "just my two cents for the development"
<len-dt> GA
<knome> i wonder which expression you was referring to? http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=ga
<knome> ;)
<len-dt> Go Ahead...
<knome> heh no, that was just a pun
<knome> i mean, supporting ardour with "two cents" for the development
<knome> as in literal $.02 ;)
<ailo_> I never knew there was an opposite to BA
<knome> yeah. AB.
<len-dt> I think the stamp is $.80 or so...
<knome> what if you pay via paypal?
<knome> they'd actually lose money if you sent less than like $2
<len-dt> I prefer to ignore them... also for them to have none of my personal info.
<len-dt> I'd like to be rich enough for a credit rating of zero too, but life is the way it is.
<knome> mmh
<len-dt> It is somewhat difficult to find much information on cpu throttling... a cpu throttle meter would be nice...
<len-dt> It doesn't appear that this machine scales.
<len-dt> It is older after all.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2012-05-11
<Len-nb> Jack running with pulse bridged, hydrogen running (playing audio), ardour recording two tracks of audio. Dsp at 33%.... CPU at 800Mhz. Switching workspaces flips it up to 1.6Ghz momentarily.
<Len-nb> ailo_, xrun/min seem to go away while cpu speed is higher.
<ailo_> Len-nb: Makes sense
<ailo_> That means less chance of getting xruns because of NM if CPU is fast
<Len-nb> Now if I could just get it to stay set to performance...
<ailo_> Should make the netbook hotter too
<Len-nb> such is life...
<ailo_> Len-nb: How are you changing it now?
<Len-nb> ailo_, I have yet to catch the CPU at the two in between speeds...
<Len-nb> I had a line in rc.local that set it to performance.
<Len-nb> But something shut it off to on demand.
<Len-nb> portable devices must keep checking or something. I have not changed from power to battery or anything like that though.
<ailo_> Len-nb: Do you have some laptop specific stuff installed?
<ailo_> You might have conf files for them that override others
<Len-nb> just US. Anything else is desktop apps or games.
<Len-nb> The same as i would put on my desktop
<ailo_> cause laptops seem to have their own conf file to set all kinds of things
<Len-nb> There is a daemon running called ondemand
<Len-nb> It may do different things because a battery is present.
<ailo_> Len-nb: There's a utlity called cpufrequtils
<Len-nb> Thats how I am watching the cpu freq.
<ailo_> You should be able to set default settings with it's conf file
<ailo_> /etc/default/cpufrequtils
<Len-nb> Thats also what I call to set performance on boot.
<Len-nb> I'll look.
<ailo_> If I remember correctly, you can edit a file in /sys/* to do it manually
<ailo_> echo performance > /sys/devices/system/cpu/cpu0/cpufreq/scaling_governor
<Len-nb> Nope, file not there. I think I have to keep ondemand from running _and_ then set things to performance.
<Len-nb> Ja, I saw that on the audio setup page. I got the way I do it from there too.
<Len-nb> Maybe try the other too.
<ailo_> But that's only for the first processor though
<Len-nb> I do it twice one for each cpu.
<ailo_> Len-nb: How about sysfsutils?
<ailo_> Len-nb: An old link http://superuser.com/questions/179329/disable-frequency-scaling-ondemand-daemon-on-ubuntu-10-04
<ailo_> Still, strange that it changes for you
<Len-nb> It will take me some playing around. But probably worth doing in my case.
<Len-nb> Hmm, did /etc/rc.local freq stays at 1.6 and is now governed by "performance"
<Len-nb> Pulled power on battery, still full speed, plugged back still ok. Maybe I have a timing issue with upstart.
<Len-nb> rc.local runs before whatever sets ondemand. I think I will try a wait 30 or 60
<Len-nb> sorry, use a sleep.
<Len-nb> Now I have xrun/2minutes...
<Len-nb> ailo_, how come I see this in syslog:
<Len-nb> May 10 16:31:03 len-netbook pulseaudio[1802]: [pulseaudio] module-jack-sink.c: JACK error >Cannot use real-time scheduling (RR/72)(1: Operation not permitted)<
<ailo_> Len-nb: Did you remove the lines from the wrong file /etc/security/limits.conf?
<ailo_> And what does jack say when you start it, in its' messages?
<ailo_> us-controls edits the wrong file, as I mentioned. If you want to use the memlock values, either paste them into the right file, or edit the program ubuntustudio-controls, which is a python file
<ailo_> Probably in /usr/share/ubuntustudio-controls/ubuntustudio-controls
<ailo_> Ah, sorry
<ailo_> I remember now
<Len-nb> Ya, it was before this boot.--Thu May 10 18:46:01 2012: JACK server starting in realtime mode with priority 77
<Len-nb> Thats from right now
<ailo_> I'm exhausted. Bugs caused by bugs
<ailo_> Time to hit bed
<Len-nb> The line above was before but from the pulse half. So maybe it is complaining about jacksink not being able to be RT as jack is because pulse is not...
<ailo_> Len-nb: I think pulse uses audio group too, which is why probably jack will begin to use a new group later called realtime
<ailo_> Not sure. There's something about that group anyway
<Len-nb> That should confuse things.... think about all those slightly old audio howto pages ;-)
<Len-nb> ailo_, instead of "record" mode it should be "performance" mode.
<Len-nb> still confusing... maybe "high performance" mode.
<Len-nb> ailo_, found out what happens... ondemand gets set 60 sec after boot "to give user time to logon". So I logon and check and it says performance.... then a few sec later it becomes ondemand :P
<Len-nb> As I have been setting up runlevel 3 as my performance level... I have set thing to switch that way. I may still have some problems yet.
<micahg> FYI, http://www.freedesktop.org/wiki/Software/PulseAudio/Notes/2.0
#ubuntustudio-devel 2012-05-12
<ailo> Another productive friday is now since long flowing under the bridge
<ailo> I hope the lake where we get the water from is not running dry
<Len-nb> ailo, holstein I can fix my xrun/minute problem without a reboot.
<Len-nb> I tried a number of things... stopping netman made it worse. Though disabling and rebooting worked well.
<Len-nb> sending many different commands to wpa_supplicant had no effect... there is a suspend command that seems to work temporarily for a few minutes.
<Len-nb> in the end modprobe -r ath9k is what works.
<ailo> Len-nb: By removing the driver than
<Len-nb> It is certainly not a generic fix
<Len-nb> But then the problem may be that driver.
<Len-nb> I can reload the module and networking just starts working again.
<ailo> Len-nb: Probably not your kind of music, but who knows http://infinitenihilationcode.com/
<Len-nb> ailo it seems that when the module is loaded it does nothing.
<ailo> It's my band. Not really activve at the moment
<ailo> Len-nb: But does it cause xruns when it is loaded?
<Len-nb> I'm trying to figure out what "my kind" is :-)
<Len-nb> The module can be loaded and untill NM is started there are no xruns.
<ailo> That's a song I made a couple of hours before a rehersal just so we had something to record
<ailo> It's a live recording
<ailo> I'm on the "percussion"
<ailo> Part playback, which is probably the first for me
<ailo> Len-nb: btw, since English speaking natively, how does the name sound? Is it weird?
<ailo> Since I'm not..*
<ailo> It probably won't matter at this stage. We'll probably just go with it
<Len-nb> The name works. There are lots stranger names. It is nice to hear music... don't get that on the radio...
<ailo> We're mostly focused on improvisation and live performance. I suppose as a reaction against what has been popular the last years - studio sound
<Len-nb> The commercial stuff is pretty much all elevator music, or vocal gymnastics.
<ailo> I use puredata as the core for everything
<Len-nb> I like live. Generally more MORish (whatever that is any more... I hated what used to be called MOR)
<ailo> Not in this particular recording though
<Len-nb> I like playing more than listening ;-)    I can enjoy playing kinds of music I don't want to listen to.
<Len-nb> How do you use PD on stage?
<ailo> That's a common thing for me too. Jazz for example, I don't ever listen to. But it
<ailo> But it's fun to play
<ailo> I use pd as a instrument. Recently I've been working on a saving module. Next step will be loadable modules. I do everything with it
<Len-nb> John Rigg's page has some good stuff on system setup, One of the samples he has on his site is a good example dynamic range. It is not overly compressed.
<Len-nb> So you "play" PD with a KB? Or pads?
<ailo> We're two musicians and one vocalist. Everything is passed through the computer and thus processable
<ailo> All of us have controllers and we can all control whatever the programming lets us, which is determined by me at the moment
<ailo> Midi controllers, audio triggers, to control audio, or midi. It's all pure data
<Len-nb> ailo, so controllers can be whatever happens to put out midi and you can modified audio (miced) as well.
<ailo> Whatever goes in can be processed as well as whatever goes out
<ailo> By anything
<Len-nb> Wow, sounds like more than three people.
<ailo> That's the idea
<ailo> The computer becomes a super-musician
<Len-nb> Or supper sound man?
<ailo> The song I linked is not a good example, and perhaps nothing will be for a while.
<Len-nb> How much of your playing time is spent tweaking PD?
<Len-nb> Or is it all preset?
<ailo> pd is a programming language
<ailo> But graphical
<ailo> I spend far too little time with it
<ailo> It's fast to use. Well performing
<ailo> Perfect for multimedia
<ailo> Or audio at least
<Len-nb> So, do you use midi contollers to advance settings as well as input performance data?
<ailo> There are "externals" for video too, but depending on what you want to do, other languages might be faster to work with
<ailo> We use midi controllers quite a lot. 0-127 notes, 0-127 control values and such. What those control, is up to the programming
<Len-nb> I would guess there needs to be a framework of sounds effects set up to improvise off of.
<ailo> I'm setting up an environment that let's you load modules, and save them. Like sample players, midi interfaces, and so on
<ailo> Since it's all live, you don't need to think linearly
<ailo> All you need is stuff that you can trigger
<Len-nb> So for each song you would have a setup you switch in or load?
<ailo> YEah
<Len-nb> Or do you have a standard set of things?
<ailo> During song making, we use a program to load stuff, but when we play live, it's all loaded all the time, and we just switch between different setups
<ailo> That's the plan anyway
<Len-nb> I'm "just" a bass player in a band. I find out what I am playing 30 min before we start.
<Len-nb> Sometimes I get chord charts so I don't have to watch the guitarists hands  ;-)
<ailo> holstein is "just" a bass player too
<ailo> I played bass in a band once, but only because the singer was so great. He's the one doing the vocals on the track I linked to
<Len-nb> We expect the audience to sing along... compared to holstein ... I really am "just"
<ailo> I have a 5-string Yamaha
<Len-nb> I play much better than I have a right to... figuring how much I practice.
<ailo> Pretty bad, but at least I have a bass guitar when I need one
<ailo> Len-nb: I'm sure you have the needed experience to make it swing :)
<Len-nb> I have a fretted Rickenbacher and a squire I stripped the frets off.
<Len-nb> I carry heavy stuff around for work all week, so I have been using the squire mostly because it is a lot lighter.
<ailo> This is a band I've been adding keyboards to http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QAYQRmVwxhw
<ailo> That recording is really bad :)
<ailo> This is a song of mine I made for them http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6KjxHQHDFBc&feature=relmfuV
<ailo> I play all the instruments
<ailo> Except for the vocals
<ailo> Did the mixing as well, all it sucks
<ailo> My first love was Death Metal, so that's what I know the best, as a musician
<Len-nb> We are mostly 3 people, some times we have a KB step in or the guitarists son will play drums.
<Len-nb> Mostly two vocals, a guitar ands my bass.
<ailo> For someone who doesn't like Death Metal, I suppose this it the best track for that band. We actually made a Spanish girl weep on one of our live gigs. Anyway, won't keep posting links after this one
<ailo> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OkoxmydFa6g&feature=relmfu
<ailo> Len-nb: Is it a cover band?
<ailo> And the song I posted last is not mine, but I did arrange the keyboards.
<Len-nb> Church band. Some cover some of our own. Some just go where ever and impovise.
<ailo> I used to play organ for a while
<ailo> I was practicing for it when I was young and unemployed
<ailo> Met the organist at our local church. He took me in at the time
<ailo> I didn't pursue it as a career, but got a small insight into church music
<Len-nb> We are more rocky than hymns. Not as heavy as some though.
<Len-nb> Christian music as a whole has many of the same problems as secular.
<ailo> Whatever makes your big toe stand up in your boot, as little Richard once said
<ailo> He might have reffered to something else, I don't really know :)
<Len-nb>  The "saving grace" (pub intended) is lots of local music. each church has their own band. 
<ailo> Len-nb: Canada, or USA?
<Len-nb> I like local, no hype, personal (dealing with the musician's life experience) kinds of music.
<Len-nb> Canada, Vancouver Island
<ailo> USA seems a lot more religious than any country in Europe, Italy included (the home of the Vvatican)
<ailo> Is it the same in Canada? I always think of Canada as more of a liberal version of a north European country
<ailo> I'm originally from Finland, btw. But I've lived in Sweden my whole life
<ailo> I know some other people here are either from USA or Finland
<Len-nb> The roots of a lot of Canadian immigrants (or north american) comes from people looking for a place they can worship freely.
<Len-nb> It has become pretty formalized and conservative on one hand, or over sensationalized on the other (like a magic show or something)
<ailo> I like Canada for the most part. Should come and visit soon
<Len-nb> Most of that is just TV though.
<ailo> All countries are weird in their own ways
<ailo> Really weird
<Len-nb> In both the US and Canada, I would say we are like outlaw Motor cyclists.... one percenters
<ailo> Len-nb: You and your band?
<Len-nb> For me it is a relationship with my maker.
<ailo> I wish they set a rule for people in Hells Angles that they should not be allowed to call themselves that if they had not flown a fighter yet
<ailo> After all, that's how Hells Angels was born
<Len-nb> Our band is part of a church. We are pretty open about things.
<Len-nb> What i meant was that there are about 1% North americans who are believers.
<ailo> I don't have a problem with religion, but it's pretty seldom I hear anyone talking about it
<Len-nb> less than 10% go to church at all.... any kind of faith.
<ailo> My grandmother is the only one in the family. I did go to Sunday school, but that was mostly because of tradition.
<Len-nb> The antis are very vocal.. we are quiet.
<ailo> If it feels ok, it must be. That's how I like to sum it up :)
<ailo> I guess I'm mostly towards Buddhism in that sense
<Len-nb> One of our couples runs "Stepping stones" a home for women wishing to get out adictions.. so we have about half our crowd comes from there.
<ailo> Don't like labels though. Never had
<Len-nb> I don't like labels much either.
<Len-nb> Though I guess you call what we do "Folk music" Something to sing together and enjoy each other's company with.
<ailo> To me, almost everything is "folk music", just under all sorts of social categories
<Len-nb> It's maybe part of the reason I haven't done to much recording.
<ailo> Just about the onlu thing that isn't is the kind of music that is either meant to support another art form, or is strictly about music and nothing else
<Len-nb> ailo,  hear you, and agree. I guess I like to thin k it include audience particpation.
<ailo> Len-nb: This is a g German composer, who spent a lot of time on very short pieces. His whole creation was not may hours long, maybe a couple. He got shot by an American soldier during the occupation of Germany. It's very mathematical http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bBf2K4S4Nmk
<Len-nb> Still thats just me. Music, is a form of communication. If it comes from the heart or says what is on the palyers mind it is valid
<ailo> Sort of the dawn of music for only the sake of music, event though it of course existed long before
<ailo> He's not extremely important from a historical point of view, but his music is interesting to have experienced
<ailo> I deem Death Metal folk music, because folks go to the shows and "dance" to it
<Len-nb> For me it would be something I hear in the background rather than play close attention to. (webern) but that my me with most orchestral stuff.
<Len-nb> ailo, I can see that with the death metal. Might be hard for people to hear themselves sing anyway.
<ailo> It probably takes a certain temperament to listen to this kind of stuff seriously. For most people, this kind of music only becomes alive when there's something visual to go with it, like movies
<Len-nb> Or I've had too much media input...
<ailo> I think if you like it you do. It's as simple as that
<ailo> Some people have an issue with elitism, and stuff like that. I think, listen to what you like. And let others do the same. What else do you need to care about?
<ailo> After all, which composer was ever an elite? Servants for someone. Like Mozart
<ailo> And understanding their music begins by trying to understand history, and the people
<ailo> If there's no interest, anything, whatever it is, will just be a poster with a label
<Len-nb> Ya, my wife likes 50s and 60s radio stuff. like karaoke. Shes phlip. (most people not asian)
<Len-nb> They all sing where she comes from.
<Len-nb> People come over, it's magic mic time...
<ailo> I likeall of it :). Stevie Wonder is a great favorite of mine
<ailo> I have a particular song even, which is deeplu personal
<Len-nb> Capenters works for her. It's funny, when I was young most of the music she likes would have been a chanel changer for me.
<ailo> Don't know why. Even as a 12 year old boy I just loved this song http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bBf2K4S4Nmk
<ailo> To me, it's like something written by Mozart, tonally. Very simple, and beautiful. But then there's the lyrics too
<Len-nb> But she takes her guitar and sings for older people at the hospital and it gives them peace and she comes home glowing.
<ailo> Len-nb: What sort of songs does she sing?
<ailo> A happy face already does a lot
<Len-nb> Stuff that was popular when the people she sings for were younger
<Len-nb> She will learn stuff they ask for. But it is mostly happy music. A lot of these people have dementia
<ailo> I must have been black in my previous life. Rhythm is my nature!
<ailo> is in* my nature
<Len-nb> I'm not sure you sent the right link...
<ailo> Not thinking about this track in particular, even though it also has some interesting changes. It's not only what happens in the course of one bar, but over the whole song
<ailo> One such example is Michael Jackson
<Len-nb> Its not stevie wonder anyway
<ailo> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g4tpuu-Up90&ob=av2e
<ailo> It's a little lame, but it's also very rhythmical
<ailo> Sort of like this, in a way http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qc98u-eGzlc
<ailo> Since there's somethings that aren't easy to pick up
<ailo> A Swedish band, btw
<ailo> Len-nb: Right. This is the Stevie Wonder link http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=khN3MqgLJao
<ailo> That's one song I couldn't have lived without
<Len-nb> Wow, thats the first micheal jackson song thats not to bad... that I have heard.
<Len-nb> Most of his stuff I don't like.
<ailo> I would have guessed. You should like the Stevie song at least 50%
<ailo> Listen to the lyrics, if nothing else
<ailo> And the harmonica solo
<Len-nb> Stevie wonder's stuff is not generally my style. but for some reason I have always liked most of wonder's suff. I think he sings wirth a lot of heart.
<ailo> When I was a kid, it was all Stevie Wonder, Michael Jackson, George Michael, and such
<ailo> Later I got into metal, and stuff like that
<Len-nb> I think I would like wonder in concert too.
<Len-nb> I liked metal before it got to be metal ;-)   I turned 52 this week...
<ailo> The best concert I ever went to was the first one. Gary Moore, Still got the blues. My dad took me there
<ailo> I guess around 90 or so
<ailo> I returned the favor a few years later with the Stones, but that was not really worht it
<ailo> Len-nb: You mean like Black Sabbath?
<Len-nb> I once saw the "rhythm aces" in the 70s It was good stuff. I liked ARS, lynyrd skynyrd
<Len-nb> journey whenthey first came out 76ish.
<Len-nb> More main stream than sabbath
<ailo> Sort of like Van Halen
<Len-nb> Ya, but less commercial..
<ailo> Positive energy
<Len-nb> VH was 80s after the producers started to have a lot more control of things. I liked their early stuff before harrar sang though
<Len-nb> Haggar
<ailo> In a way, a lot of Metal I think is about that. It's about doing something, not being still. But then of course, there's a lot of controversy with lyrics and so on.
<ailo> How about Def Leppard?
<Len-nb> Funny, I liked some of sammy haggars stuff before that.
<Len-nb> I haven't heard that much. the bit I heard was ok. But I didn't buy LPs/cds that much so I was limited to the radio.
<ailo> Rhythmically, this a song that not everyone will get the point of http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cfOa1a8hYP8
<ailo> Especially with the way the chorus is laid out (or whatever it is)
<ailo> Rhythm is not just about what happens in one bar
<ailo> But what happens during the course of an entire song
<Len-nb> That guy is good.
<ailo> He's like a genious :P
<ailo> You should listen to some of their records
<ailo> Radiohead
<Len-nb> What he is doing reminds me of my son... who dances like that.
<ailo> Very simple stuff
<ailo> Yeah?
<ailo> You should send your son to some music conservatory right away
<Len-nb> He has sensory problems slightly autistic. I don't think the guy in the video is thoough
<ailo> He might be, to a degreee
<ailo> Not perfectly "normal" anyway
<ailo> They say people like Mozart and Beethoven were slightly so
<Len-nb> Mark, could sing perfect pitch, timing, and with dynamics before he could talk. Hear a song one day and sing it the next.
<ailo> I think I am, to a degree
<ailo> My sisters sang songs at two
<ailo> Not me though
<Len-nb> He has lost all of it. Itb has been a long road to get him to sing at all any more.
<ailo> But I was early too
<Len-nb> I always liked music, I started drums at ten... never stopped playing something 
<Len-nb> I might have started playing earlier if I had the opportunity... but keyboards was not for me.
<ailo> takes a certain kind of temperament to like it 
<Len-nb> The way they wanted to teach me kryboards was lots of whole notes.... really boring
<ailo> I didn't start because of confusion. Didn't understand Swedish enough. No one saw it. But there was never anyone more talented than me
<ailo> Takes a musician to spot one, I guess
<ailo> In the town I grew up, probably not a single soul would have had anything to offer me anyway
<Len-nb> One sister plays keys at home, the other plays sax. My oldest son plays sax
<ailo> sax is a great instrument
<Len-nb> The two of them sound completely different.
<Len-nb> Angela plays sax like a french horn, Jeff likes swing and a harsher sound.
<ailo> Girls, though you would not think it, are often more straight forward
<ailo> Also, it takes time
<Len-nb> Ja, lots of time... mine has been spread out over a lot of years.
<ailo> Len-nb: You seem to be able to put a lot of work into something you find interesting
<ailo> Something not everyone is able to do
<Len-nb> Sometimes. my two younger kids take care of themselves. Wife is out.
<ailo> I believe your dedication to finding out things, and testing already are invaluable to US, and will have a major impact on the distro as a whole if you keep going
<Len-nb> testing is pretty important. I think a lot more people might help if they knew.
<Len-nb> testing is not hard, just try things out. It can be a bit boring.
<Len-nb> I do have some idea where to look for things on a system i guess. I know where the logs are.
<ailo> Also, you are well educated on computers enough to find ot low level system solutions
<Len-nb> I know how to read?
<Len-nb>  ;-)
<Len-nb> I am mostly self taught
<ailo> As am I, both when it comes to computers as well as music (spent a lot of hours in the library reading about music)
<Len-nb> I had some teaching in 78 or so. Basic programing, pdp8 (8 bit) machine and 8080 code.
<ailo> I realized no one had any answers to my questions, during High School, music major, so I went ahead and read about it mysle
<ailo> You can't ask someone about Mozart, if he isn't Mozart
<ailo> Too much info missing
<ailo> Len-nb: Programming in 78. That's like when they invented programming at all?
<Len-nb> c was 72 as was unix
<ailo> At least C must not have been very old, or standardized by then
<Len-nb> I learned all console and tape stuff though
<Len-nb> I ran a BBS on an atari mega, then a 286 then a 386 with OS/2
<Len-nb> My first sequencing on a computer was with the atari. 16 chanels but 1024 tracks.
<ailo> My mom got a Apple, con't remember the brand. It had 512kb RAM
<Len-nb> really solid time wise.
<ailo> An uncle used a modded Atari for internet at around 2000. I thoutght that was pretty cool
<ailo> Friends had Commodore, Amiga
<ailo> I never had one though
<ailo> Did learn a bit of basic on my moms machine
<ailo> She was learning to become a computer engineer for a little while until she realized that was nothing for her, and went towards teaching. She's pretty much running half of the school world now
<ailo> I still have my uncles Atari. It can switch between two kinds. 512 adn 1024 I think, or if it was double
<Len-nb> 93 I started using linux
<ailo> Woo, that was early
<Len-nb> yygdrsell or something like that... live cd even ... with x!
<ailo> Crazy!
<Len-nb> needed a floppy to boot
<Len-nb> went to slackware soon after and made BBS software for that.... then internet got big and BBSs died.
<Len-nb> I still have a 16 interface serial card around here somewhere
<ailo> Cool as hell ;)
<Len-nb> I only ever had two or three modems though.
<ailo> Only...
<ailo> Who had even one?
<ailo> Remember a friend using his to call a friend
<ailo> They did nothing useful, and I did not even realize it was important for another 15 years
<Len-nb> When I was dating my wife I gave her an old dumb terminal with modem. We were able to do live chat.
<Len-nb> hey... just like this :-)
<ailo> Len-nb: That the way you turned her over?
<Len-nb> I had had a horibble 
<ailo> Pretty romantic for the standard of the day
<Len-nb> horrible first marriage and I wanted to really get to know her before things got mushy
<Len-nb> we taked a lot.
<Len-nb> talked.
<Len-nb> things have been _much_ better
<ailo> Seems to have worked out ok
<ailo> Takes time to even learn oneself
<Len-nb> anyway, She is home now and I should go and help get kids put away for the night
<Len-nb> ailo, bye now
<ailo> Len-nb: Later
<Len-nb> I have move bug #671240 from inactive to confirmed and added my info.
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 671240 in linux (Ubuntu) "ath9k locks kernel in 10 ms, causing e g audio dropout" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/671240
<Len-nb> I suspect that the ath9k is a cheap chip that requires locking the cpu out just to work. I think the the answer is going to be documenting the quirk and the workaround.
<Len-nb> good night
<len-dt> ailo, do you know of an application that can split a midi stream into two (or more) channels based on note range?
<falktx> zonage does that (part of the arpage tool)
<len-dt> Thanks. there is a user who could use it. I just missed him though. but I will take a look.
<len-dt> It sounds like something we should include in US
<len-dt> not in repo though
<len-dt> Ah, pre-alpha.
<falktx> I have a package if you want to take a look
<falktx> https://launchpad.net/~kxstudio-team/+archive/ppa/+sourcepub/2274012/+listing-archive-extra
<len-dt> ailo, do you know if the specimen project is dead? There is a package (petri-foo) that claims to be a "successor of specimen". It is a fork.
<len-dt> ailo, (or anyone else) it appears we do not have a midi filtering package as part of US. The one falktx mentioned has conflicts with the normal US install... and is pre-alpha just yet. SO I have downloaded midish, qmidiroute and python-mididings to try out.
<len-dt> I suspect midish is not what we want. It is CLI we are GUI oriented.
<len-dt> and python-mididings though installed... I can't find either in the menu or on a terminal. I don't know what the executable is. Not very intuitive...
<len-dt> ailo, astraljava ScottL I would nominate qmidiroute to be included in US this round. It installs easy, runs easy, intuitive to use... I was easily able to split my dx7 keyboard to qsynth for two different sounds.
<len-dt> I can think of a number of places this functionality might be useful.
<len-dt> another use for me would be to change a drum sound from my ancient yamaha dd11 drumpads. Limiting parts of a keyboard velocity... actually what got this whole thing rolling.
<len-dt> On another note... could someone with a relatively new desktop do a:
<len-dt> cpufreq-info in a terminal? I want to see if cpu throttling is happening.
<len-dt> One of the files that starts up "ondemend" seems to check if the machine is a laptop or not. I want to see if that is true.
<len-dt> ondemand seems to get started twice.
<len-dt> You may have to install the cpufrequtils package to do so.
<len-dt> falktx, that package requires libs that conflict with my install
<len-dt> that is US 12.04
<len-dt> I have suggested we add qmidiroute to 12.10
<len-dt> I was able to split my dx7 easily with it and it is in repos and pulls in no new depends
<falktx> len-dt: what conflicts?
<len-dt> The following packages have unmet dependencies:
<len-dt>  libjack-jackd2-0 : Conflicts: libjack-0.116
<len-dt>                     Conflicts: libjack0 but 1:0.121.0+svn4538-3ubuntu1 is to be installed
<len-dt>  libjack0 : Conflicts: libjack-0.116
<len-dt> I don't know if upgeading to the new package will hurt something else
<falktx> I never got anything like that
<len-dt> how do I back track and find out what package uses libjack-0.116?
<len-dt> aptitude does that, but we don't have that installed.
<falktx> just skip it
<falktx> you can compile arpage manually
<len-dt> I would have to install some more stuff to do that too.
<len-dt> ./configure complains
<len-dt> I think I will wait telling a user they need to download and build something from source is not something I want to do.
<len-dt> If I am helping someone, I want to tell them the easiest thing possible. The person I was talking to was not even aware of the idea of note velocity.
<len-dt> falktx, thankyou for the idea though.  I would like to see the project continue.
<falktx> len-dt: I have quick solution for you, but not sure if you like it
<falktx> len-dt: https://launchpad.net/~kxstudio-team/+archive/ppa/ ;)
<len-dt> I wondered if it was from there ;)
<len-dt> falktx, how do I add it to apt? it seems to think there should be a word after that... like main or something... actually they show two words in their example 
<len-dt> deb http://archive.ubuntu.com/ubuntu precise main
<falktx> don't do it that way
<falktx> just use:
<falktx> sudo add-apt-repository ppa:kxstudio-team/ppa
<len-dt> Wow, falktx it now wants to update a chunk of my system
<falktx> I dio
<falktx> *do
<falktx> 12.04 is already outdated
<len-dt> applying.
<len-dt> I'm getting wine. but then I guess I had already installed it... 
<len-dt> falktx, so this version of alsa includes the FW stuff?
<falktx> make sure you're in the audio group!
<falktx> alsa? huh
<falktx> alsa != firewire
<len-dt> falktx, is that likely to change?
<falktx> no idea what you are talking about
<falktx> but now have to go
<falktx> later
<len-dt> falktx, I had heard they were adding FW drivers to alsa.
<falktx> I don't use fw
<falktx> cya
<len-dt> bye
<len-dt> falktx, when you get back... how do I un-upgrade. a2j crashes now.
<falktx> len-dt: un-upgrade??
<len-dt> falktx, Ya, take all those upgrades you just had me out again... itbreaks too much
<len-dt> a2j is something I use a lot.
<falktx> wtf? breaks too much?
<falktx> what?
<len-dt> a2j doesn't work with the new jackd2
<falktx> it does, just reboot
<falktx> len-dt: trust me, I've been using this system for 4 months now
<len-dt> I'll try cya
<falktx> len-dt: btw, never run "a2jmidid", but use "a2j" instead
<falktx> a2j -e
<len-dt> falktx, I was trying a2j_control as well.
<len-dt> That did the trick. they do work.
<len-dt> Are we planning on adding KXStudio bundle for 12.10?
<falktx> no, they are distinct projects
<len-dt> falktx, I understand that, but I had the idea US may install some of the apps by default.
<len-dt> zonage works fine, but requires either midi raw or a2j -e to work.
<astraljava> len-dt: falktx's PPA is just that, a PPA. We will not ship anything in those directly.
<falktx> len-dt: zonage is jack midi, so yes you need that
<astraljava> len-dt: And if you need to get rid of a PPA, there's that ppa-purge or something that is made for just that purpose.
<len-dt> astraljava, ok. so only if they end up in the debian and flow down to ubuntu repos.
<len-dt> astraljava, ya getting rid of the repo was not the problem. But thanks.
<astraljava> len-dt: The Debian step isn't necessary. It just needs to be in Ubuntu proper.
<astraljava> But it's of course preferable to get them to Debian first.
<len-dt> Ja, I figured something like that, but they would have to be to release stage first.
<len-dt> hmm, lv2 rack now starts ladi, is that new or something I missed?
<falktx> len-dt: my packages support ladish completely, some that debian/ubuntu has missed
<falktx> lv2rack/zynjacku is one of them
<len-dt> falktx, there is a difference between support and require :-)
<falktx> remove all references to liblash then ;)
<len-dt> I'm not upset, just not to using ladi on a daily basis... or at all yet.
<falktx> got it. I didn't know lv2rack would start ladish though, that's new to me
<falktx> but if you remove all liblash* packages, it will start without ladish
<len-dt> ladi is a part of US though, I want to keep things reasonably stock
<len-dt> falktx, and I need to learn how to use it
<ailo> I haven
<ailo> len-dt: I haven't really been using a lot of sampling or midi applications, since I do most things in puredata
<ailo> Not very difficult to dabble with midi in puredata. 
<len-dt> ailo, I found an app called qmidiroute that seems to do the job well
<len-dt> It is really easy to use and doesn't seem to pull any depends.
<ailo> len-dt: I guess it might be good to assemble a list of midi utility apps. 
<ailo> Or maybe one is enough
<len-dt> ailo, I think it is time to start thinktanking for 12.10
<len-dt> If we list utility apps we can try them out and decide what to include.
<len-dt> ailo, falktx had me looking at arpage/zonage for this use and it would work too, but it is alpha and not yet in our repos for that (and maybe other) reason.
<ailo> len-dt: Is there a workflow page where all apps used in US are listed? If there isn't, we should probably start one
<ailo> falktx did one nice thing in KXstudio. He has an application where you can see a list of multimedia software and what they support
<len-dt> ailo,  there is a workflow page, but it covers way more than we support.
<ailo> I think it would be good to have such a list on a web page somewhere. Not only the apps that are installed, but also those that are not
<len-dt> it is more of a dream page.
<len-dt> ailo, I think maybe two pages... one that we are doing right now and one with what we would like to do.
<ailo> I won't have any time to do anything today. Will try to get something done tomorrow though
<len-dt> I am working on an email with some ideas.
<len-dt> Nothing much will happen till Scott gets back anyway. but ideas will give us something to work on till then. (or till the web page goes up)
<ailo> len-dt: I look forward to reading it
<len-dt> ailo, it is my second try... I rebooted part way through the first time :P
<len-dt> ailo, message posted
<len-dt> I'm off for some family time...
#ubuntustudio-devel 2012-05-13
<ttoine> hi
<ttoine> hi
<astraljava> -hta
<astraljava> -hat*
<astraljava> grr
<ttoine> hi astraljava
<astraljava> Hi Antoine. HOw's it going?
<knome> 22:45 Â» ttoine [~ttoine@89-93-244-22.hfc.dyn.abo.bbox.fr] has left #ubuntustudio-devel []
<knome> 22:50  astraljava: Hi Antoine. HOw's it going?
<knome> hurr?
<astraljava> Wah?
<astraljava> Oh. Well I have joins/parts filtered.
<astraljava> It's only a problem if people start commenting on that. See, it woulda been only one unnecessary line, but you just made it six more entries.
<astraljava> So shame on you.
<astraljava> That's seven, now.
<knome> \o/
<astraljava> Err... eight.
<knome> yeah.
<astraljava> ARGH!
<knome> i'm trying to take over ubuntu studio too.
<astraljava> You evil evil nasty person you.
<knome> astraljava, he's back ;)
<ttoine> knome: great to see you there
<knome> ttoine, hey :)
<ttoine> I am very curious to know why the new website is not online...
<knome> ttoine, scott should go throught the content and ACK me to publish it
<knome> ttoine, after that i'll file a ticket for canonical IS and it'll be published soonish
<ttoine> I am so sorry I was not available for a couple of week. I am launching my new business and it takes all my time
<knome> no problem:)
<knome> good luck with the business though!
<knome> may i ask, what is it? 
<ttoine> thanks... I have so much hope with that
<ttoine> knome: it is in french
<ttoine> http://libre-factory.com
<ttoine> My aim is to work with small business and independant and manage their web presence
<ttoine> I do that for a long time for a few people : internet, social network, computer maintenance and those people told me that I do a good job and I should start my own business...
<knome> :)
<knome> yeah
 * knome does some of the same :)
<ttoine> The other side would to try to get a deal with some social services to be able to offer to lone people IT courses
<ttoine> for example old people so they can follow their grand children accross the world
<knome> mm-hmm
<knome> ++
<ttoine> or for people with handicap so they can stay in touch with friends and family
#ubuntustudio-devel 2013-05-06
<Len-nb> qas shrinks nicer too.
<zequence> xfce, as in the alsa mixer gui?
<zequence> And, what don't we need? 
<Len-nb> let me look downstairs at a more complex card
<Len-nb> yes the xfce mixer, called "audio mixer"
<Len-nb> That is the only one we have right now
<zequence> alsa mixers don't have pulse controls
<zequence> Some levels are share by alsa and pulse mixers, but that doesn't mean the alsa mixer has pulse controls
<zequence> or, qasmixer only has two controls for pulse, output and input
<zequence> I don't think qasmixer is adding anything that we didn't already have, does it?
<len-1304> Niether one of them makes sense on my old ensoniq card. :P
<len-1304> I have to enable the playback on line in before I can set it to record?
<len-1304> zequence, One thing I will say about "audio mixer" is that I can't even get all my playback controls on the ice on one screen. QASmixer gets playback, capture and all the switches on less than 2/3 screen.
<len-1304> zequence, QAS allows much finer adjustment and actually show db. using the up down keys with QAS gives 1 db steps, Audio mixer does 4db steps, but I can only see that from QAS. alsamixer in a terminal is about the same as QAS
<len-1304> QAS can be set to a level with text input, "Audio mixer" doesn't understand the need for such fine adjustments, alsamixer doesn't allow text input either.
<smartboyhw_> zequence: Are we allowed to blog about Ubuntu Studio future targets? ;P
<smartboyhw_> For S and T.
<zequence> smartboyhw: Sure, and I'm going to do some posts on that on our website and social sites too. On my personal blog, I might just write more personal stuff (like someting about my personal projects), since we already have a common "propaganda" apparatus for Ubuntu Studio
<zequence> smartboyhw: You can prepare posts for Ubuntu Studio too, if you like. But, if you don't mind, I then would like to have a look at them first
<smartboyhw> zequence: Heh, if you are going to post things on the website I'm not going to:P
<zequence> smartboyhw: I don't mind if you do it. I'd actually like it if more people would write stuff, so we can post things more often
<smartboyhw> zequence: OK. But you reminded me to actually write my own goals for 13.10 in my blog:P
<smartboyhw> zequence: BTW what do you think of https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Lubuntu/CommunicationsTeam/WOWLubuntu/StartUbuntu ?
<DarkEra> posts on the main/Home page or the planet?
<zequence> We can link Ubuntu Studio posts to the planet. It's not worked out yet (just needs a correct address for the planet Ubuntu feed, I think)
<zequence> smartboyhw: Very smart goal
<smartboyhw> zequence: Try 
<smartboyhw> We have a category
<DarkEra> just reading the log because i missed something 
<smartboyhw> Just that it's not properly feeded
<zequence> One of the things I think we should be doing is prepare Debian/Ubuntu so that companies like Pro Tools would feel it's a good platform to support
<smartboyhw> DarkEra: Some:P
<zequence> Right now, the audio system is messy, and we are in a position where we can do something about that, at least from top down. 
<smartboyhw> zequence: I think you need to purchase an actual whiteboard to brainstorm ideas (like what Scott did for team structure in his blog) ;P
<zequence> I'm not really brainstorming right now. These are firm goals, but I just haven't put them in writing yet
<zequence> We should contact some companies and see if they have any interest in Ubuntu/Linux
<zequence> And if yes, what they think the problems are, etc
<smartboyhw> zequence: Great
<zequence> Doesn't mean we need to serve them, just that it's good to get an idea about what the situation is
<smartboyhw> zequence: I tried to search the Ubuntu Studio trademark's registration, no luck :P
<zequence> Yeah, google is dry of it. I still haven't emailed anyone about it..
<DarkEra> sad news by the way, in the Netherlands 3 shops that sell PC's/laptops with Linux on them are closing their doors because it's harder to get computers without Windows installed from the vendors
<zequence> Need to go out for a while. bbl
<DarkEra> me to in a bit
<DarkEra> too*
<smartboyhw_> zequence: Are we seriously doing a vUDS session? It's next week man.
<smartboyhw_> Welcome back DarkEra
<DarkEra> heya smartboyhw_ thanks
<DarkEra> welcome back yourself :D
<smartboyhw> DarkEra: Meh, I touched "Disconnect" accidentallyâ¦
<DarkEra> smartboyhw, that can happen. accidentally close xchat sometimes
<DarkEra> myself
<DarkEra> always fun i a meeting for example: hey where did DarkEra go?
<DarkEra> vUDS is next week already? Time passes quickly... wow
<smartboyhw> DarkEra: Yep
<DarkEra> cool
<DarkEra> i need to check something later on. It seems Ardour 2 didn't save the crossfades 
#ubuntustudio-devel 2013-05-07
<smartboyhw> zequence: ping
<smartboyhw> Hello madeinkobaia
<madeinkobaia> Hi smartboyhw :)
<zequence> smartboyhw_: pong
<smartboyhw_> zequence: Are we doing a vUDS session? (for user suggestion)
<zequence> smartboyhw_: Yes, I will try to set something up for that.
<smartboyhw_> zequence: It's next week!!
<smartboyhw_> That's good:)
<smartboyhw_> Hello DarkEra ;)
<DarkEra> hi smartboyhw_ and all the others
<madeinkobaia> Hi all, any problems on freenode ? I am disconnected from the room without reasons.
<DarkEra2> madeinkobaia, me too
<madeinkobaia> Hi darkera, ok so the problem comes from freenode.
<DarkEra2> hi buddy, could be
<zequence> The Extix guy changed his wallpaper now http://www.extix.se/extix-13.04-live-desktop-screenshot.jpg
<DarkEra> ah cool, thanks for letting know, i somehow almost forgot about it
#ubuntustudio-devel 2013-05-08
<len-1304> zequence, went through all the mixers I could find. sent email to the list.
<smartboyhw> 1 day till EOL of Ubuntu Studio 10.04 LTS and Ubuntu Studio 11.10
<smartboyhw_> zequence: http://www.theorangenotebook.com/2013/05/people-behind-ubuntu-quality-howard.html?m=1
<zequence> smartboyhw_: That's great. Nice to see a picture of you too. Didn't know you were into fencing. You look like you might be good at it :)
<smartboyhw_> zequence: That time was my only medal:P
<smartboyhw_> Heck, it's 2 years ago
<zequence> Even one medal is something :)
<smartboyhw_> zequence: Heh:
<smartboyhw_> :P
<smartboyhw_> zequence: You did what dholbach said in #ubuntu-community-team ?
<smartboyhw_> about vUDS
<zequence> I haven't got around to that yet. Maybe tomorrow
<smartboyhw_> zequence: Okies
<DarkEra> good afternoon every one
<smartboyhw_> Hello DarkEra http://www.theorangenotebook.com/2013/05/people-behind-ubuntu-quality-howard.html?m=1
<smartboyhw_> :P
<smartboyhw_> Ah you left a message
<DarkEra> ;)
<smartboyhw> wb DarkEra
<DarkEra> smartboyhw, thanks :)
<DarkEra> just reading a mail from the mailinglist
<smartboyhw> DarkEra: ?
<DarkEra> someone is looking for the next version of Jack and Ardour on 12.04 and asks if we plan that
<smartboyhw> DarkEra: We might backport. Dunno, ask zequenceâ¦
<DarkEra> that'll be the best to do before giving a answer. But afaik ardour 3 won't show up until the 13.10 release
<DarkEra> ah, holstein just answered, exactly what i expected and wanted to answer too :)
<zequence> Ardour3 is the kind of application you might want to backport to an LTS. We could add it ourselves to the Ubuntu repos right now, but I'd wait for the sync from Debian, which will be possible soon as Debian Wheezy is now released, and Debian Testing and Unstable are being actively updated now
<zequence> The Ardour3 package is not yet released AFAIK, but should be shortly
<zequence> We'd need to backport more than just Ardour. A few dependencies
<DarkEra> heya zequence , cool and yeah, now wheezy is released everything is rolling again
<zequence> Considering for how long the LTS will be supported, I think it makes sense to keep supporting it even after the next LTS is out
<DarkEra> i agree on that
<smartboyhw> zequence: Would it be a good idea to tell people on #ubuntustudio what releases are supported, or what has (in 10.04 LTS and 11.10's case, soon will be) EOL?
<smartboyhw> using the channel topic
<DarkEra> Ubuntu Studio 13.04 and 12.04.2 Now Released http://ubuntustudio.org/download and supported
<smartboyhw> DarkEra: How about 12.10?
<DarkEra> that was copied from the topic in #ubuntustudio just add that "and supported" maybe and 12.10
<smartboyhw> We will need to ask holstein or astraljava to chan 
<smartboyhw> *change
<smartboyhw> (if we change)
<DarkEra> if it still can be added, i believe topics are limited 
<DarkEra> to a certain amount of characters
<smartboyhw> yep
<smartboyhw> !version
<ubottu> To find out what version of Ubuntu you have, type Â« lsb_release -a Â» in a !shell - To know the available version of a package, Â« apt-cache policy <package> Â»
<smartboyhw> meh
<DarkEra> lol
<smartboyhw> sleep bye!
<DarkEra> smartboyhw, you're going to attend on UDS next week
<DarkEra> ?
<DarkEra> ok laters :)
<smartboyhw> DarkEra: NO
<DarkEra> k
 * holstein can update the topic if you guys want..
<holstein> i like the idea of a factoid.. !supported
<zequence> Adding factoids is never wrong, I think
<zequence> The topic should not say more than needed, IMO
<holstein> zequence: i like a concise topic
<zequence> I wonder how I can manage to push an entire kernel to github without it getting stuck half way through
<zequence> I'll be hopefully taking over maintenance for all kernels, including the development release during saucy
<zequence> all -lowlatency ones, that is
<zequence> I get up to 300MB, then it chokes
<zequence> After 4 fails, I guess it's time to contact support
#ubuntustudio-devel 2013-05-09
<micahg> zequence: if people do the testing, I'm happy to push the buttons for the backports, at this point, you'll have to backport through raring and quantal (requestbackport from ubuntu-dev-tools will show you what needs to be tested)
<smartboyhw> !testers
<smartboyhw> Meh
<zequence> micahg: Thanks. I should probably work on helping getting Ardour3 into Unstable first. Doesn't seem like there's a flood of uploads happening there yet, and I suspect the package still needs some tuning to get it to build properly.
<smartboyhw> zequence: Up that early?
<smartboyhw> Do you want the !support factoid?
 * smartboyhw can set it up:P
<zequence> !support should be about where one can get support
<ubottu> zequence: I am only a bot, please don't think I'm intelligent :)
<zequence> !supported-versions, or some word like that would be better
<ubottu> zequence: I am only a bot, please don't think I'm intelligent :)
<smartboyhw> zequence: How about !supported ?
<zequence> smartboyhw: It's best if the factoid points to a wiki page too, otherwise you will need to maintain the factoid each time there is a change
<smartboyhw> zequence: OK then. So maybe !supported-versions is "The currently supported Ubuntu Studio versions are 12.04 LTS, 12.10 and 13.04. Other releases are not supported. Please see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Releases for details."
<smartboyhw> zequence: So do you like it or another suggestion?
<zequence> smartboyhw: Or perhaps !supported-releases "See http://wiki.ubuntu,com/Releases to see which releases are supported"
<zequence> Or, if there is a way to script the factoid, to use a Ubuntu command to find out
<smartboyhw> Hello DarkEra
<DarkEra> hi smartboyhw 
<smartboyhw> zequence: We are asked to use !releases instead
<DarkEra> we're going to need to post the EOL  announcement of 10.04 LTS and 11.10 on the community G+ site etc. too soon
<smartboyhw> DarkEra: Why too soon? And for the postings in G+, zequence will do that
<zequence> !releases
<ubottu> Ubuntu releases a new version every 6 months. Each version is supported for 9 months to 5 years. More info at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Releases & http://wiki.ubuntu.com/TimeBasedReleases
<smartboyhw> I need to wait for the Ubuntu Release Team to announceâ¦
<DarkEra> not too soon, i mean soon too... brain is fried
<smartboyhw> DarkEra: LOL
<DarkEra> :P
<DarkEra> i'll be back later on the day, got some things to do. :)
<zequence> I'm setting up a cron job system for posting things to the list that needs attention
<zequence> Packages that need fixing (-devel list), and further, packages that need testing (-testing list)
<smartboyhw> zequence: Good one.
<smartboyhw> How about the vUDS work?
<zequence> vUDS is not an absolute priority for us
<zequence> I will have a look at it, don't worry
<smartboyhw> zequence: You said you will set up a session:p
<zequence> I said it would be good for us to do that
<smartboyhw> zequence: Heh
<smartboyhw> OKies
<smartboyhw_> zequence: Mmm what do you mean by that we need to deal with merges?
<zequence> smartboyhw_: Those are merges between Debian and Ubuntu packages that need to be done manually. I haven't yet done any myself. We should start doing this for packages that we ship. For me, it will be one step towards getting upload rights
<zequence> There will be a list like that posted every Monday from now on
<smartboyhw_> zequence: Heh, I have Kubuntu merges to deal with
<zequence> smartboyhw_: Maybe you could change the vowel in "Heh" now and again, to give it some variation: "Hah", "Huh", "Hih" ;)
<smartboyhw_> zequence: Eh, that's Oba Kubuntu style
<zequence> A lot og empty chairs in LAC2013. Sure wish I had been there
<smartboyhw_> zequence: Ouch. How many?
<zequence> I didn't count them
<zequence> http://lac.linuxaudio.org/2013/stream
<zequence> Aargh, his using Windows
<zequence> he's*
<zequence> The bottom line is that if you always try getting changes upstream, to Debian and to application developers, it doesn't matter what happens in Ubuntu in the long run, because none of your work will have been wasted
<zequence> Rather, it will have been the most used, and the best tested in the Linux community.
<zequence> It would be different, if there were restrictions on that point. If somehow, any of your changes would need to only be local to Ubuntu, or that they even would be copyrighted. But, that is not the case. It's free software. And it's free for everyone
 * smartboyhw_ is wondering if zequence is talking to somebody or just shoutingâ¦
<zequence> falktx: This is why, I find it strange, that you do not try to get your changes upstream in the distro, even if I know you do communicate with developers
<zequence> Ah, wronge channel actually
<smartboyhw_> ROFL
<smartboyhw_> bye sleep time
<falktx> zequence: hm?
<zequence> matching changes posted in a mail list to a text on the web proved to be much more work than I initially though
<zequence> falktx: How are you building your ISOs btw?
<zequence> falktx: Have you seen this? https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/SetupLocalIsoBuildServer
<falktx> I just build using a chroot to make a squashfs file
<falktx> I've put some useful functions in a script, https://github.com/falkTX/kxstudio/blob/master/scripts/kxstudio-create-iso
<zequence> One of the jobs I'm doing, and been doing for a while is figuring out all the different parts of flavor development. Was kind of hard to get a picture as I don't think there is any documentation based from that angle
<zequence> Might happen I try copying the process on a personal server later on
<zequence> It's all being documented here, all though this is just a scratchpad so far https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/DeveloperDocumentation
<zequence> Needs a lot more work
<zequence> And, the goal is to make it universal for all flavors
<falktx> I'm the last person that will ever participate on writing docs... I personally hate that...
<falktx> don't know why, but I can't force myself to write documentation or translation for more than 5mins at a time
<zequence> Think I've written 100% of the content on the Ubuntu Studio wiki the past year. Or, at least 95%. Not many people like writing docs
<zequence> But, I don't know of a better way to establish a way for people to work independently - as I plan to try to grow this team with people who might not have the same kind of patience some of us others have
<zequence> One needs to be able to get all the info one needs from one place
<zequence> There's nothing more frustrating than spending hours googling for minor details
<zequence> Add to that, having tools for simplifying many tasks (many exists, but are hard to find without guidance)
#ubuntustudio-devel 2013-05-10
<th3pr0ph3t> Ubuntu Studio needs a guided tour: when I first booted Ubuntu Studio I asked myself: "Now what do I do with all this?" -- of course the knowledge base is there but there should be something friendlier. Is someone already working on this? Can I help?
<zequence> th3pr0ph3t: We'd love to get more people involved in working on things like that. We don't really have anyone working on user documentation, and what we have on the website is not edited very often http://ubuntustudio.org/tour/
<zequence> There is a structure laid out for a written user guide https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuStudio/UserGuide
<zequence> We've had plans for making videos
<zequence> And, adding something to the ISO itself
<th3pr0ph3t> :O
<zequence> All we really need is for someone to create some material. We can host stuff on our website, or on the ISO. Depending on the format, and so on
<th3pr0ph3t> and are there some rules on how to extend, the information in there?
<zequence> There's really just what you see at the moment
<zequence> I did the structure for the user guide sometime last year, but you don't really know what is best until you start working on it
<zequence> I also did the feature tour for the website, but that was really more of completing it in order for us to be able to publish the new website (you might have seent he older one, which was quite different)
<th3pr0ph3t> Yes, I returned to ubuntu studio after a few years and saw many changes
<th3pr0ph3t> maybe in a few days I could add something that could work as a starter guide for inkscape, maybe?
<zequence> th3pr0ph3t: Don't forget that there may be good tutorials already out there. Maybe all you need is to add links to them, and making the links pretty
<zequence> It's best to try make use of existing material as much as possible. 
<zequence> But, some really basic introductions aren't wrong of course
<zequence> Especially if it's more in the line of introducint Ubuntu Studio rather than specific applications
<zequence> The user guide should focus mostly on Ubuntu Studio specific stuff, and point towards other sources whenever there already is something ready out there
<zequence> The main focus when it comes to applications is probably from a workflow point of view. And that could involve not only one, but a multitude of applications
<th3pr0ph3t> that's true... :/
<zequence> That is also something I mention on the User Guide structure
<zequence> Some kind of intro to common tasks an artist/producer would do, and what applications they could use for that
<zequence> So, it would be like a short introduction on what you can do with Ubuntu Studio
<zequence> One could combine that with videos
<th3pr0ph3t> It would be nice if those introductions to each set of tools looked the same: same visual style instead of links to external tutorials..
<zequence> I would avoid getting into details. Just a quick run through of some of the features
<zequence> th3pr0ph3t: Well, if you are up for the work, then you are free to do it :)
<th3pr0ph3t> I think I'll just stay on the channel until there's something I can do to help
<zequence> The problem with large documentation is that few people have the time to complete it
<zequence> So, to be able to get the docs to be as all encompassing as possible, it's much smarter to make the docs be a gateway to other information portals for the detailed stuff
<zequence> And only put energy on creating clearly Ubuntu Studio specific  documentation, that couldn't be found elsewhere
<th3pr0ph3t> yet ubuntu studio is overwhelming, it has a lot of tools and it would be nice if it took the user by the hand to give the first steps, then tell him: there are more tutorials over there, go.
<zequence> Exactly
<th3pr0ph3t> I felt overwhelmed with the audio tools, of which I don't know much
<zequence> There's a problem with the audio workflow. It's too complicated. Docs is one way to solve it. Another is to simplify it by developing it further
<zequence> th3pr0ph3t: One of the tasks none of us really has the time for (or interest), is to take an entire workflow, such as audio, or graphics, or video, and only work at researching what applications exist, what we should include, and if the applications are working the way they should (built with the correct features)
<zequence> th3pr0ph3t: In fact, the only time you can clearly get someone to very simply tell you what you could help out with is when it is time to do testing. But, that is only a couple of times before each release
<zequence> The rest of the time, it's really up to each individual, to focus on some task, and work independently
<zequence> ..with the feedback and assistance from fellow team members of course
<th3pr0ph3t> alright, I'll make a habit to open xchat on this channel and stay tuned
<zequence> th3pr0ph3t: Great. I'm sure that if you stick around, you'll get the feeling for it
<smartboyhw> holstein: Do you think the EOL announcement that I posted is good enough?
<holstein> smartboyhw: sure
<holstein> several people seem to have noticed it
<smartboyhw> holstein: :)
<smartboyhw> zequence: Can you post the EOL announcement as "Ubuntu Studio" and post it to the Ubuntu Studio Community please?
<zequence> smartboyhw_: You should post in the user list too.
<zequence> Really more interesting to users, since we don't do any direct support for those releases, and don't have to be adjusting our work at all based on which releases are currently supported
<smartboyhw_> zequence: Which I did
<smartboyhw_> I send to -users and -devel at the same time
<zequence> Right you are
<zequence> Seems like I've found a problem with my email filter
<zequence> Or, rather, my email server :(
<smartboyhw_> zequence: :(
<TheresNogod> hi
<smartboyhw> Hello TheresNogod
<smartboyhw> Hello DarkEra
<DarkEra> hi smartboyhw 
<zequence> kind of lonely in here.. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XFHzYlnDB_g
<len-1304> :)  That bad ?
<zequence> Oh, I'll survive.. 
<jablo> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=596qaxm-u4o ?
<zequence> Just wondering where all our devs are at, but maybe there's a holiday I don't know, or I'm just crazy thinking people want to develop Ubuntu flavors on a friday
<zequence> Nice cover
<zequence> I took a step towards creating universal dev docs for flavors by drafting this https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/DeveloperDocumentation/Scratchpad
<zequence> Trying to find a nice format for it, so you can quickly get an overview if you're totally new to it, but also be able to find every little detail about any task you need to do
<zequence> It's going to be multi paged later
<zequence> Once I feel I have something substantial, I'll start poking different people, in other flavors and Ubuntu devs to give me some feedback
<zequence> Don't think anyone has requested anything like this, but I'm hoping it might improve chances for more activity. Just wondering why in a world with so many billions of people, so few find their way to the most popular multimedia content production Linux distribution, and want to help
<zequence> It's like one in a billion, isn't it?
<zequence> All though, it's not fair to say that, since not everyone has a computer
<zequence> Or, is the proper age, etc
<zequence> It's still less than one in a million
<jablo> Million to one chances crop of 9 times out of ten. Well-known fact.
<zequence> jablo: Hi. Haven't seen your nick before, so I'm assuming you are new here? :)
<jablo> I'm new on the forum. Listening in. Since there was quiet, I thought it ok to be just a tad off topic.
<zequence> Yes, we aren't always very formal in here, mostly because there is less activity than on many other dev related channels
<zequence> We don't really require an off topic channel, like many others have for that reason, I think
<jablo> :)
<jablo> In regards to "...why in a world with so many billions of people, so few find their way to the most popular multimedia content production Linux distribution..."... Between work, home, children, actually *using* ubuntu studio (and learning in the process), there's very little time to contribute :(
<zequence> Better not get children, wives and try to avoid too much work :)
<jablo> lol.
<zequence> But, sure. Many people are in that hamster wheel
<jablo> For me, I never did combine music and computers until recently (year or so). So learning DAW etc. has been quite enough computers (outside work). Did contribute some stack traces on the ardour list a while back, though. Not much, but hey :)
<zequence> You are fast to contribute then. I started out using computers at around 2001 or so, and didn't begin to contribute until 2010 or so
<zequence> But, I wasn't using Linux at first. The first Ubuntu Studio installation I did was at around 2008
<jablo> I'm old (45). Been using computers "all my life" (since at the age of 12 I met a Z80 based computer). 
<jablo> just not for music. 
<zequence> You're probably younger than len-1304
<zequence> Well, I was referring to when I started using the with music myself. All though, I was never a big computer user, my first interaction was with a Macintosh back in the 80s. 512kb RAM
<zequence> I'm 35 myself
<jablo> ah.
<jablo> Ubuntu studio is just so nice!
<zequence> The main reason I started learning stuff was because things weren't always working, and now I'm the project lead of Ubuntu Studio :P
<jablo> !!!
<zequence> Yes, Ubuntu Studio has had its ups and downs, but it really does fill a purpose
<jablo> As long as there's a working lowlatency kernel. That's a must-have in my experience.
<zequence> Yes, definitely
<zequence> There was a -rt kernel in the past, but was not included with all releases
<zequence> Finally, when the vanilla kernel included enough of the rt patch, a reconfigured -generic was good enough for low latency audio
<zequence> So, that is when it was introduced
<zequence> Originally maintained by Alessio Bogani
<jablo> Yeh. Actually, I think it's more than 1year. Come to think of it, 2 or so at least; I remember I had a nice working setup on an old laptop, with working lolatency or -rt kernel. And a 2 port USB sound card. Taught me absolute basics of sound recording. Upgraded, then nothing worked and waited for months until suddenly there was a new -rt or lowlatency kernel. 
<zequence> But, nowadays maintained by me. And, things are rolling pretty well now. New stable release updates about every 3 weeks, in cadence with -generic
<jablo> oh so you are my ubuntu-studio life saver. Thanks!
<zequence> Well, I only took over the boring work, after the important things had already been done by others :)
<zequence> I was involved in testing it, and propagating for it being included in the repositories, which I guess was important too
<jablo> That's always how it seems I think. To the one doing the job, it's easy. Everyone else stands in awe.
<zequence> Really, it's mostly just administrational work. Following bug reports, running a script, and then testing it to make sure it works
<zequence> Anyone could do it, if they knew the right steps
<zequence> The hard part is to set it up
<jablo> Ye. The getting-started part. The "hello world" like learning curve.
<zequence> Really, most of the work that is required to make Ubuntu Studio a great OS does not need any skills at all. Just a bit of time
<zequence> Like choosing and testing applications. Reporting bugs, etc
<zequence> Writing documentation, doing PR or user support, and so on
<jablo> I'll hang around - even if I started out whining a bit before (time), I really would like to do something.
<zequence> I've written up the maintenance procedure for the kernel here https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/KernelMaintenance
<zequence> jablo: You are welcome. And even if you only find time to do something for a few days, we'd be grateful
<jablo> One thing that bothers (long explanation follows): I use 2 ICE1712 based sound cards, synchronized with spdif. I combine them into one virtual card with asoundrc. Works really well UNLESS i click "enable d-bus interface" in jack. Where the **** would I start looking for why that is a problem?
<jablo> it seems jack ignores asoundrc virtual combined device when dbus interface is on
<zequence> Oh, that is interesting
<zequence> I have two ICE1712 card myself, and have only tried that once. Never needed them for that (I usually do multitracking at a friends studio, when recording drums)
<zequence> When disabling dbus in qjackct, it really just means, you are starting jackd and not jackdbus
<jablo> (nice write-up of kernel maintenance)
<jablo> So it's a jackdbus question (for the #jack channel?)
<zequence> jablo: I would ask people in #jack about this. Ask them, why are you not able to run both cards as one with jackdbus, when you can do it with jackd
<zequence> jablo: Some information for you: to start jackd from the terminal: jackd <options>, to start jackdbus from the terminal, you use the script jack_control (in /usr/bin/jack_control), and you do: jack_control start
<zequence> The kernel maintenance page probably does not work for anyone but myself now, as only I have access to my repos, but it's reflects how I do it
<zequence> Come to think of that, I should start a project for Ubuntu Studio at github for things like this
<jablo> zequence: I was just going to say that - 
<jablo> it's getting a but late, but I think I'll try your description soon. For ardour I ended up following instructions on the #ardour channel and compiled lv2-1.2.0.tar.bz2, sratom-0.2.0.tar.bz2, lilv-0.14.4.tar.bz2, suil-0.6.10.tar.bz2, sord-0.8.0.tar.bz2 and ardour3 from git repository myself.
<jablo> so my ardour runs more or less out of my home directory. Who does the ardour package for ubuntu studio?
<zequence> jablo: All packages are done in Debian, which is where the package for ardour3 is being prepared
<jablo> ah. of course
<zequence> jablo: I've built it on my ppa. You can get it with: ppa:zequence/testing
<zequence> It's not a permanent ppa, mind you
<zequence> So, I would only use it once to install ardour, and then remove the ppa
<zequence> To add the ppa: sudo add-apt-repository ppa:zequence/testing
<zequence> Afterwards, you can delete it from /etc/apt/sources.d/
<jablo> I don't remember why I ended up downloading and compilling all those extra tarballs - probably they were needed to compile (as opposed to merely running) ardour. So you build a dist of ardour3 regularly?
<jablo> Failed to fetch http://ppa.launchpad.net/zequence/testing/ubuntu/dists/quantal/main/source/Sources  404  Not Found
<Len-nb> jablo, some people have found starting jackd(bus) with one card and using zita-aj for the second works a lot better.
<jablo> Lan-nb: Would zita-aj still do some resampling even if I keep the two cards on sync with spdif ?
<jablo> Len-nb: What I mean is - zita-aj seems like a software solution to synchronizing the cards, which I can do much better in hardware. And thus would prefer.
<Len-nb> In the current incarnation yes.
<Len-nb> The author has talked about doing a straight through version
<Len-nb> or switch.
<Len-nb> Maybe if enough people bug him about it will actually get done :)
<jablo> hehe
<jablo> Not shure I'm in a bugging position. eh.
<zequence> jablo: Ah, I only have raring packages there :(
<Len-nb> Fons is on the LAU mailing list, you could ask there.
<jablo> zequence: sry. I can't fnd my way aound these animal-version names. Raring being...?
<zequence> jablo: 13.04, the latest release
<jablo> Hehe. NOw we get to the other reason I started to hang around here... to spy on others having done the upgrade, and hear about the results. Sounds like I have an upgrade coming.
<zequence> heck, we'll all be running 13.10 soon
<zequence> But, not as production machines :)
<jablo> production... production... music'ing etc. is my hobby. there's not a production machine in sight here.
<jablo> Oh well, I'll take a backup of my home dir and start the upgrade before (going to sleep anyway now, yawn).
<Len-nb> jablo, Apparently pcm-multi is not working so well right now. You are not the first person to have problems with two indentical cards
<jablo> Len-nb: it's been a while since I last used my cad in combo. 
<Len-nb> I have only one card (a D66) so I have not ever tried to set it up
<Len-nb> I keep thinking it would be nice to have a 1010 or two, but the reality is I rarely even use two channels right now.
<jablo> Len-nb: well, it was "easy" (following a link, I can dig it out again); once I figured out the dbus/non-dbus problem. It just works I use the combined device to record my band when we practice (7 mics drums, 1 bass, 1 guitar, 2 keyb, 1 vocal). Using the built-in mixer we get 0-latency and quite a decent recording. There's some bleeding between drums and vocal. But it's for practising, so...
<Len-nb> I only have 6 mics anyway. I might be able to mic a drum kit....
<jablo> Oh - we used 3 mics for the drums the fist 2 times... then he went and bought a set of mics to mount. 
<Len-nb> using zita-aj I could get up to 8 channels, but then I run out of mic preamps too. So upgrading starts to get pricey quick.
<jablo> My cards each have 2 preamps, drummer had 1 already, guitarist had a dual, we have an older 6 channel mixer too which amounts to 1 preamp, I use "effect send" on the bass amplifier. Guitarist has a multifunction board and its output level is ok for recording. So it just barely works out. Could get pricey though.
<jablo> I have a couple of extra preamps on my borthday/christmas present wish list. sigh.
<jablo> well, it's linux upgrading time and  I wont' sit here looking at the download. Be back tomorrow.
<zequence> Yay, another one man team https://github.com/ubuntustudio-kernel
<DarkEra> zequence ----> the one man army :D
<zequence> DarkEra: I started sketching on a more thoroguh documentation for flavor developers https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/DeveloperDocumentation/Scratchpad
<zequence> Still just a sketch, but hoping it might be helpful
<DarkEra> going to have a look :)
<DarkEra> zequence, wow, nice work you've done there so far
<DarkEra> a lot of useful stuff to read that i will dive into
#ubuntustudio-devel 2013-05-11
<len-1304> zequence, have you ever heard of these? http://www.audioscience.com/internet/products/sound_cards/asi564x.htm
<len-1304> They seem to actively support linux. They have 8i/o PCIe cards with the ability to have up to 4 cards in a system (32 channels)
<len-1304> In/outputs can be either/or AES or line level and are generally grouped in pairs. (the AES3 standard)
<len-1304> They appear to be designed for broadcast work and are likely to be pricey for that reason.
<len-1304> $1300 - $1700 depending on options :) The lower price is for either audio i/o or AES. The higher price is for both.
<zequence> len-1304: Nope, never heard of them. I guess I would only know about cards that appear in different audio specific stores, generally. And even there, it's seldom I take a look around these days
<len-1304> zequence, the audio science cards have some interesting features for streaming.
<len-1304> It is certainly a name to remember if someone asks about HW for broadcast, either on air or internet
<len-1304> It may also have some use for multi-channel (surround) mixdown. as it allows a set of channels to be locked as one stream. With just one set of controls.
<len-1304> They have one set of cards with on board MP3. That is an MP3 stream can be sent to the card and get audio out or audio in will generate an MP3 stream
<len-1304> Digigram also advertises Linux support. Alsa shows as of 1.0.25.
<len-1304> Wow, thats the first time I have seen this: "Due to the reduced length of the PCI EXPRESS bus connector and the resulting lack of mechanical stability, we strongly advise against transporting cards installed in a computer"
#ubuntustudio-devel 2013-05-12
<Len-nb> zequence, on a netbook 4 workspaces are not enough.
<Len-nb> (not that we should base studio on a netbook)
<Len-nb> zequence, we have some double settings dialogs.
<Len-nb> There are two keyboard input methods config applets, and there are two online account managers
<Len-nb> I will only put the xfce version in our settings manager.
<zequence> Been doing some mixing with ardour3, finishing up a project I initially started doing on Ardour2. Not too bad. Calf plugins are pretty nice, plus I have the LinuxDPS plugins as well
<zequence> And Ardour3 isn't in the way too much. One crash so far, but the project could be recovered
<Len-nb> A2 crashes sometimes too. But normally from a plugin.
<len_1304> zequence, qamix sounds  interesting. Not in our repo though. It doesn't come with a configure script though... harder to build.
<smartboyhw> Happy Mother's Day len_1304 zequence :P
<len_1304> I'll pass that to my Yf   ;)
<len_1304> zequence, qamix is by the same author as ams
<len_1304> It has persound card profiles and is midi controllable. Once I manage to build it I will be able to tell how it looks ...
<Len-nb> micahg, when  you have time, ubuntustudio-default-settings needs to be released.
<Len-nb> zequence, ^^ when it gets released, I would like opinions :)
<Len-nb> I have moved all the settings into the settings manager and removed the settings menu... similar to xubuntu. 
<Len-nb> The settings manager has a new audio section for the LADI bits, but could include other audio config stuff
<Len-nb> Unlike xubuntu, things like software installation and gparted are still in system.
<Len-nb> I could put a graphics section in as well for colour setup if that makes sense.
<smartboyhw> Hello DarkEra 
<DarkEra> Hi smartboyhw 
<len_1304> smartboyhw_, our page https://launchpad.net/ubuntustudio seems out of date. Do you know how to fix it?
<zequence> len_1304: Those are done manually
<zequence> There's actually no point in doing that, since we aren't using Ubuntu Studio as the project for our releases anymore
<len_1304> Ya, but I don't see an edit button
<zequence> That's probably because ubuntustudio-core is the maintainer
<len_1304> Ok
<zequence> I've moved over ownership to that team for most things recently
<zequence> Once can get an overview of things from there too https://launchpad.net/~ubuntustudio-core
<len_1304> Not  problem really. I am less sure how to change it anyway.
<zequence> There's no real logic behind the teams right now, I think
<zequence> The projects, I mean
<zequence> I think Ubuntu Studio had its own repos and stuff in the past
<zequence> So, it made sense to have a project, and a bug tracker for that
<zequence> Since we're all apart of the Ubuntu project these days, we don't really need a Ubuntu project. But, I still use it for some things, like the blueprints that aren't release specific
<len_1304> Yup. Well the menu is just about finished
<zequence> I mean, we don't really need a Ubuntu Studio project, is what I meant
<zequence> len_1304: We should start packaging ourselves, so let's set up a PPA for that
<len_1304> Ok.
<smartboyhw_> Hello madeinkobaia
<zequence> len_1304: That means, we build the package, and then someone can sponsor by just copying it from PPA
 * smartboyhw_ just done some merging for Kubuntu, heh;P
<len_1304> zequence, that also means other team members can test them sooner.
<zequence> len_1304: Yeah
<smartboyhw_> A PPA is certainly best
<madeinkobaia> Hi smartboyhw :) Hi all, I added a new version for the 13.04 "box banner" : http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~ubuntustudio-art/ubuntustudio-resources/art/view/head:/ON-AIR/ubuntu-studio_box-banner_1304_02_by_madeinkobaia.png
<madeinkobaia> zequence ^
<len_1304> madeinkobaia, looks good to me.
<smartboyhw_> madeinkobaia: Nice job!
 * smartboyhw_ rather wants madeinkobaia to focus on making 13.10 wallpapers :P
<madeinkobaia> Hi len_1304, thanks : )
<zequence> madeinkobaia: I thought it looked just good. Couldn't remember what the changes were, so looking at the older version it seems you have moved the background a bit, and lightened the blue text
<zequence> I like it
<madeinkobaia> smartboyhw_ : I started working on wallpapers ; )
<zequence> micahg: So, I was thinking we should start building our own packages, and put them in a PPA so we can ask to get them copied from there, but would there be any problems with that? I'm thinking of gpg signatures
<smartboyhw_> madeinkobaia: \o/ We have so many good wallpapers from the community. 
<zequence> smartboyhw_: I'm sure madeinkobaia knows best himself what to focus on, being the art lead and all
<madeinkobaia> zequence : You caught the changes perfectly well : )
<madeinkobaia> zequence : Let me know when its on line, I am curious to see the result : )
<zequence> smartboyhw_: Do you build the packages, and upload to a PPA first? How does it work?
<zequence> ..or does someone else build it for you?
<smartboyhw_> zequence: PPA or branch reviewâ¦ I always upload to the PPA and see whether that guy wants a bzr m.p. insteas
<zequence> I had to personally meet someone to get my gpg signature signed, in order for it to be trusted when doing linux-lowlatency uploads
<smartboyhw_> In this merge case, yes
<len_1304> and how do you tell the build to be 32bit or 64 bit or both?
<zequence> len_1304: One only builds the source package, and that's more about building the diff and changes. When uploaded to PPA, only the diff is uploaded, and the rest is built on the server, both arches
<smartboyhw_> I like PPAs:P
<zequence> len_1304: It's pretty straight forward. I'll set up a page for that, as soon as I've confirmed that we can proceed this way
<len_1304> i'm getting confused already... I'm thinking about -settings and think what I'm working on is already src
<len_1304> That should help make things clear.
<zequence> len_1304: There are two kinds of packages. The source, and the binaries. When uploading, you only upload source. The binaries are built on the server. The Debian source package build includes some files that you probably recognize, *changes, *dsc, *diff, *orig. What you upload is really just the diff and the changes file, signed with your gpg signature
<len_1304> Ya, that is what bzr is doing now.
<zequence> The bzr branch is just for keeping track of changes. Also, you make changes to the debian folder
<len_1304> I branch a package change it and bzr makes a diff and pushes it
<zequence> Well, yes, the changes are documented in debian/changes
<zequence> But, it doesn't become a package until you build it. The build instructions are in debian/rules
<zequence> It's like a makefile
<len_1304> I can build the binary from that branch so it is the source. If the package is built at the server what is a PPA for?
<zequence> You can also build the source package from that branch
<len_1304> I thought the ppa was for installable packages.
<zequence> Both
<zequence> Just like the repos
<zequence> I mean, main, univers, etc
<zequence> You have both binary and source packages tehre
<zequence> A source package is what you get when you do: apt-get source <package>
<len_1304> So I shold be taking the branch and creating a set of deb src files (3 I think?)
<zequence> Yes, you need to build the source package from the bzr branch
<zequence> And, then, upload it
<len_1304> Seems like a lot of work for some thing like settings where the src is effectively already the binary.
<zequence> The gpg signature you use to sign it is like your ID
<zequence> So, that is how people can see it was really you who did the package
<zequence> You can't install something, unless you make it into a package
<len_1304> Yes. That part is obvious.
<zequence> You don't upload the entire source each time either
<zequence> Just the diff
<zequence> ..which is signed
<len_1304> same with bzr
<zequence> well, sure, but it's not a Debian package. It's a bzr branch with Debian source in it
<zequence> You can set up bzr branches to autobuild though
<len_1304> To a source package or binary or both?
<zequence> both
<len_1304> I can learn whatever. First is setting up pgp. I need to do that on my other machine though.
<len_1304> This one is a testing drive always changing
<zequence> len_1304: I made short howto on that here https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/SetupDeveloperEnvironment#Create_a_GPG_Key
<zequence> Similar ones exist a little here and there
<len_1304> Ya, I have seen them, I will look at yours too. But I need to get ready to go out. I'm playing in a few hours.
<zequence> Alright, I need some food
<micahg> zequence: I don't see any reason to use PPAs for that
<micahg> zequence: what problem are you trying to solve?
<micahg> zequence: please don't use the kernel packages as standard fare, they are special
<zequence> micahg: So, what you are saying to get packages sponsored, we stick to bzr branches?
<zequence> micahg: Doesn't really matter. Even if building them is another step in learning how it all works
<zequence> We can still keep our PPA for testing
<zequence> or, a PPA
<micahg> zequence: bzr branches, debdiffs, syncs from Debian
<micahg> zequence: since you're a member of the Debian Multimedia packaging team, you can push stuff through there as well
<zequence> micahg: This is just about our own packages
<zequence> the ubuntustudio stuff
<micahg> yeah, you want to test build locally or in a PPA to make sure things are fine
<micahg> zequence: oh, yeah, sponsoring from the branch is best as it has the history
<micahg> we should make it so core-devs can commit as well so that you have access to more sponsors
<micahg> it requires creating/assigning a mailing list for the ubuntustudio-devel team
<zequence> in launchpad?
<micahg> yeah
<micahg> if there's either an ML or an address associated with the team, it won't send changes to members
<zequence> do I invite a team to ubuntustudio-dev?
<zequence> ..for them to get access I mean
<micahg> so, for https://launchpad.net/~ubuntustudio-dev , you need to set an e-mail address or create a mailing list so that the members aren't mailed directly anymore (so as not to spam core-devs) and then we can add the team
<zequence> The team is called core-team?
<micahg> it's ubuntu-core-dev or something, but first you need to fix up the studio dev team in LP before adding them
<zequence> I'm creating the mail list right now
<zequence> micahg: Isn't MOTU able to sponsor as well?
<micahg> yeah, was thinking to just add MOTU
<micahg> core dev is a member of MOTU
<micahg> ok, I'll propose the addition and you can accept
<zequence> I already added MOTU as a member
<zequence> https://launchpad.net/~ubuntustudio-dev
<micahg> oh, that works then, you have 150 available sponsors now :)
<zequence> Well, hopefully I can get upload rights not too far into the future, and we'll have that problem solved
<micahg> zequence: yes, but the packageset is much more than those few sources
<len_1304> zequence, I am not sure what this new mailing list is for.
<micahg> len_1304: the new ML is so that the members of the team aren't spammed with bug comments and what not
<micahg> otherwise, you can't have MOTU as a member as most people don't care about the day to day stuff
<len_1304> Ok thank you micahg Did you get my other note about settings?
<micahg> Len-nb: no, sorry
<len_1304> Settings needs to be uploaded
<len_1304> It may have scrolled off the top of chat by now :)
<micahg> len_1304: ACK
<len_1304> Thankyou micahg 
<zequence> len_1304: I made a more extensive description of the uploading to PPA process, as I'm kind of directing it towards beginners. But, you should find some useful info in there https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/UploadingToPPA
<len_1304> Ok, I have figured out the pgp thing... Finally. Guess I am someone...
<zequence> len_1304: Yeah, it's a little bit tricky at first :P
<zequence> Even though, it's also very simple
<zequence> I'm deleting the PPA that we had
<zequence> The last package was for Karmic, so don't think anyone will miss it
<zequence> len_1304: I set up this ppa now https://launchpad.net/~ubuntustudio-dev/+archive/devel
<zequence> ppa:ubuntustudio-dev/devel
<zequence> For our own packages, that we have in bzr branches, etc
<zequence> Whenever we want to try one out, or if we decide to set up daily builds, or whatever
<zequence> We could do that for all the bzr branches if we want
<zequence> ..or I should check how that works more thoroughly first, probably
#ubuntustudio-devel 2014-05-05
<OvenWerk1> Has anyone tried menulibre? should we use it to replace alacart?
<OvenWerk1> xubuntu has moved to menulibre so far as I know.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2014-05-06
<holstein> OvenWerk1: you like wisker?
<holstein> we could emulate upstream more..
<OvenWerk1> Not so sure about wisker. I guess I could try it out, but it seems to be best for some one who has a small well thought out workflow.
<OvenWerk1> (just looking at the web page screen shots)
<OvenWerk1> The advantage of the formal menu we have now (over the newer search assited menus) in my mind, is that it helps the new person find software they don't know they have.
<OvenWerk1> Or don't think they might need... and so would never search for it.
<OvenWerk1> ... ok, just installed it. It is sort of KDEish but not as good. It does read all the menu files, but does not follow all the style hints at all.
<OvenWerk1> As a result, the custom sub menus are spread all over the place,
<holstein> yup
<OvenWerk1> wisker does not do all the sub or sub-sub menus we use to make things easier to follow
<holstein> im not wilde about it
<OvenWerk1> so our audio production menu is a huge list of apps with no rhyme or reason.
<OvenWerk1> I think the application finder might be more useful.
<OvenWerk1> If I turn show menu hierarchy on it is much better. But you still need to click on the submenu before it shows rather that just hoover over it.
<OvenWerk1> Well I can set that too, for the main catagories, but not for the submenus
<OvenWerk1> I have KDE on two machines here (for my wife and son) and in both cases we have selected a menu type of classic.
<OvenWerk1> So I would guess it is something that could be done, but I think it would slow me down and I would probably on my machine use the standard menu. 
#ubuntustudio-devel 2014-05-07
<zequence> Still working on feature definition organizing. Will begin discussions on many topics on the mail list as soons as I have gathered what we already have
<zequence> This time around I will put a lot of emphasis on feature specs, and make sure we all agree on things before we move forward
<OvenWerk1> Anyone know if it is normal on a multicore cpu for one core to run much cooler than the rest? My core 0 is 5C less than all the others and less than the the overall cpu temp too.
<OvenWerk1> Or should I assume that this is an error in the temperature probe
<OvenWerk1> Speaking of temperature in cpus... I have been playing around with setting different speeds on the cpu and running the core full out (100%) to see where the temperature falls.
<OvenWerk1> This is mostly to see if it matters if I use "performance" mode or need to use userspace at some slower speed to keep heat down. It appears not. My CPU is a 3.2Ghz top end (without boost turned on and as the OS doesn't control speed changes with boost on... it is off)
<OvenWerk1> It actually runs a little cooler at 3.2G than at 3.0G. I have also found that running cooler cores faster than hotter ones does not ballance the cpu temperature, but instead makes the hotter ones (at lower speeds) even hotter.
<OvenWerk1> Basically, what I have found is that all cores at one speed is cooler than having some cores going slower. So "performance" mode will run cooler than "ondemand" mode in some cases.
<OvenWerk1> holstein: ^^^ this is with regards to what we were talking about before.
<OvenWerk1> I think we should allow the user to choose to run their machine in "performance mode" from boot if they wish. I have heard it makes a difference with video work as well.
<OvenWerk1> I think for a production computer, performance/lowlatency is more important than energy savings for our uses.
<OvenWerk1> The settings for CPUgovernor are (still) in init.d so we should have no problem adding a custom file to do this. It _should_ still continue to work after ubuntu has switched to systemd. which seems to be on the way.
<OvenWerk1> zequence: ^^^
 * OvenWerk1 is off to get son from school
#ubuntustudio-devel 2014-05-08
<zequence> OvenWerk1: I'm taking that the fan does not run in the same speed at all times?
<zequence> OvenWerk1: Would be good if we could make cpugovernor editable from a gui. Not everyone will need it after all, and the computer can be used for other things as well
<zequence> I got the idea that we might be able to sync linux-rt from Debian directly. Talked with apw, and he suggested I try with getting it to build in a PPA, which I will try once I get a chance
<zequence> OvenWerk1: What would you like to do for 14.10?
#ubuntustudio-devel 2014-05-09
<aleb> I read the "[ubuntu-studio-devel] First Call for Contributors for the 14.10 cycle of development" email - what type of work would you have for software engineers (Python)?
<zequence> aleb: We have some of our own application development, and python would work well for that.
<elfy> zequence: meant to post to your list - but here will do - if you need any help with QA type things - just shout 
<zequence> elfy: Thanks. We would definitely need some work on our testing routines
<elfy> I'll be less busy this cycle I hope - many things are already set up and running 
<elfy> zequence: yep - package testing is not so easy for me to help with as I don't use many of your packages, though basic tests are easy enough to get started - depends if there is any value in doing that
<zequence> elfy: I'm sure you have a lot of experience that would come to use for us, especially in how to structure it, using the tools available, and so on. But sure, the focus is a bit different. The most advanced topic is testing audio.
<zequence> Since most of us do only audio, not much work is done testing graphics and video
<zequence> Surely, also advanced topics, to the people who know that stuff well
<elfy> then I would guess the best thing would be too find some people to write the advanced things
<elfy> I would guess that most of the 'normal' stuff you seed you can forget as much is tested elsewhere
<elfy> given that you don't appear to have a huge number of people about - I'd be looking at the long plan - get everything up before 16.04
<elfy> it DID take us a whole cycle to get our stuff ready - and we had quite a lot of people writing them
<elfy> a list of apps you want to test would be a good start :)
<zequence> elfy: Planning long term for 16.04 is very much in line with how I think.
<elfy> then I am sure I will be able to help you then :)
<elfy> zequence: if you can get me some sort of list - with some sort of importance of your apps - then I can start looking at it, assuming you want to of course
<elfy> but I'm away now - wicked headache most of the day 
<OvenWerk1> zequence: been sick all week... so it iskind of hard to have an interest in anything :)
<OvenWerk1> I have (for my own use) been working on an audio mode systray app.
<OvenWerk1> I don't know if Studio would want to use it or not.
<OvenWerk1> The system side part may be useful if Studio would prefer to use a more generic controls tool.
<OvenWerk1> I am using python with pyqt for the gui. But system side will probably be sh scripts... just because I can copy some things that are already there.
<zequence> OvenWerk1: Ubuntu Studio controls, as I've been working at, is a systray app
<zequence> OvenWerk1: Sure you are not reproducing the same work?
<OvenWerk1> Probably not quite.
<OvenWerk1> But that is why I asked if it was even useful for Studio.
<zequence> OvenWerk1: Would be great to see what you are planning on doing, and what you have done
<OvenWerk1> It is useful for what I want on my machine :)
<zequence> Well, that is probably not what everyone needs - but some of it might be
<OvenWerk1> I have set my system up so that jackdbus starts at session start.
<zequence> That is one thing I'm working at as well
<OvenWerk1> Ay app sets latency of jack as well as pa-jack bridge on off. I am working on also controlling if CPU governor is ondemand or performance depending on latency.
<zequence> autostarting jack - also, controlling jack through dbus
<OvenWerk1> Right now I have 5 modes, but I am finding my new machine doesn't really need all of them.
<zequence> OvenWerk1: Would be nice to see the code you've done. My first job for ubuntustudio-controls will be to SRU the existing one in trusty, to make it do something useful, but that will only administer rt privilege. Later, I'll start summing up my previous work - perhaps also see if falktx (who already has made quite extensive work on a systray app) would like to work with us on that
<zequence> falktx systray app supports all DEs
<OvenWerk1> I have a desktop mode... high latency, pulse on. I have a low latency phone mode with pulse still on. Then three different latencys for pulse off, recording live and mixdown.
<OvenWerk1> That was why I went with QT for the gui.
<zequence> Both GTK and QT supports all DEs. I was more referring to the systray part
<zequence> indicator and systray are separate. Also, Gnome has it's own thing, but can support systray and indicator apps with plugins
<OvenWerk1> That was the part I meant too. The gtk2/3 systray stuff has been in the air for a while.
<OvenWerk1> Anyway, I have found that my recording mode and live mode don't seem to need different settings.
<zequence> You seem to have worked out a logic for things, and are still figuring that out. You would probably benefit from feedback, unless of course, you are only working on that for yourself
<OvenWerk1> So I am thinking of doing just four modes. One thing I would really like to be able to do is find the min/max latency for a sound card.
<OvenWerk1> Feed back would be fine.
<zequence> The simpler, the better. One mode would be best of all.
<zequence> Tuning cpu governor is of course a nice thing to do
<OvenWerk1> I tried doing userspace with different speeds. Basically I don't need it.
<OvenWerk1> I can run in performance at 100% cpu on all cores without getting too hot.
<OvenWerk1> I seem to have a good 10C head space
<zequence> OvenWerk1: Did you see the mail about suspend?
<zequence> We should see about that, and SRU it
<OvenWerk1> In fact performance seems to generate less heat than ondemand when pushed.
<zequence> Getting a bit late. Will be back tomorrow. Need to address some mails, and finalize the structure for planning, so we can go forward with defining out specs for this release
<OvenWerk1> OK, I will go pick up my boy.
<aleb> zequence, so if I volunteer, what would you ask me to do, could you give me an example?
#ubuntustudio-devel 2014-05-10
<OvenWerk1> aleb: Sorry we kind of left you hanging.
<OvenWerk1> We do not have a nice list of things we people to work on... not that organized
<OvenWerk1> aleb: For the most part we have been each looking for things that bug us and fixing/improving them.
<OvenWerk1> aleb: zequence is starting to make things more organized and formal so our focus is more aligned.
<OvenWerk1> aleb: in general Studio is "workflow oriented". This has two main implications:
<OvenWerk1> first, we select applications so they fit into a defined workflow. So we try to have all the apps needed to do that workflow without flooding our menu with duplicate apps.
<OvenWerk1> second, we are looking at setting our menu(s) up so that these applications are easy to find in these workflows. We are also looking at utilities to make system setup for a workflow a "one click" operation.
<OvenWerk1> aleb: if you have been on the mailing list for a while, you will have seen some posts about the "blueprints" being changed. They are still being set up 14.10, but that would be the place to look for things we have already identified as things we wish to try and do.
<OvenWerk1> aleb: A few extra things: none of us are paid employees, so this is a hobby for any one of us... if we seem slow to answer it is just because we are busy with life (real job, family, etc.) or that the computer is just not our passion right now.
<OvenWerk1> aleb: so while there are "dead lines" for getting something done for a release... there is not really a dead line for getting something finished. Other life may come first.
<zequence> aleb: Yeah, sorry for not answering you before. This next cycle will be a lot more organized than previous ones I've been involved in, I could better answer your question in a few days time
<zequence> OvenWerk1: I just found something that makes categorization of packages a lot simpler
<OvenWerk1> ok
<zequence> OvenWerk1: Have you heard of debtags? Not sure exactly how that works, yet, but Debian has done a lot of work on finetuning categorization7
<zequence> OvenWerk1: There are made up of debtags http://blends.debian.org/multimedia/tasks/
<zequence> To see a debtag, install debtags, then on any installed package, do: debtags show <package>
<zequence> For amb-plugins, it is a line like this: Tag: implemented-in::c++, role::plugin, works-with::audio
<zequence> OvenWerk1: btw, that link is for finding packages belonging to the pure blend of Debian multimedia. It's sort of like Ubuntu Studio, but without their own install image
<OvenWerk1> I kind of figgured.
<OvenWerk1> I would guess that those tags depend a lot on the developer?
<zequence> They are done in Debian, so I would think not so much actually
<OvenWerk1> Or are the debian packagers adding too?
<zequence> Yes
<zequence> Not sure how it works yet. Just started reading about it here https://wiki.debian.org/Debtags
<OvenWerk1> One of the problems we have seen in the desktop catgories is each developer does things differently.
<zequence> I remembered talking to this guy who was working on defining blends last debconf, and he showed this stuff about Debian multimedia. I had just not realized the core components of it all
<OvenWerk1> One of the other problems is that different tagging systems are appropriate for different workflows.
<OvenWerk1> but a rich set of tags could make that easier to deal with.
<zequence> Exactly. debtags seems pretty well figured out, if you ask me
<zequence> but.. the debtags when I look at them now don't always make sense
<zequence> They would need to be worked at - something we could assist in
<zequence> And I realize the debian multimedia-* packages aren't based on those after all
<OvenWerk1> With all the convergence in UI going on, I am seeing a few directions showing up. There is the desktop use for home/buisness use where the number of apps is reall quite small. The developer setup with many more apps, but well known so search based menuing works well. However there is a third group of people who want to do something, but who don't really know what it is or what the tools that might do that are, these people work best with the old 
<OvenWerk1> Tags seem to be designed with "what to install" in mind. though there may be other uses.
<zequence> I don't think the job of the menu is to showcase applications. 
<OvenWerk1> That may be true... so maybe we need some thing else that does.
<zequence> debtags can be used to create application lists, into a database, and use that database for all sorts of things
<zequence> the installer could make use of them
<OvenWerk1> Yes
<zequence> or even ubuntu-software-center (which maybe it already does)
<OvenWerk1> I had thought of that
<zequence> The problem I guess is how to make it easy for people to browse for applications
<zequence> Installed, or not
<OvenWerk1> The problem with doing things that way is that the tags are set up from a world wide POV. (world wide meaning all SW)
<zequence> If an application finder of any kind can use those tags, searching will become easy, as long as the tags are intelligently made
<zequence> I think it's up to us to define what the tags should be - us, and debian-multimedia
<zequence> Don't think they have put a lot of work into that
<OvenWerk1> Being able to refine a search can be hard for some people to do.
<zequence> I don't agree. There aren't that plenty of keywords that come to mind
<zequence> Things like recording, mixing, plugins, midi, etc
<OvenWerk1> plugins for example will yield a large group of sw, much of it not useful.
<zequence> And then, combining them
<zequence> plugin + eq, for instance
<zequence> I think these debtags are the best tool for this type of categorization so far. And, best of all, it's upstream
<zequence> For us, anyway
<OvenWerk1> Yes, I agree it has the right setup.
<OvenWerk1> The tags are populated on a volunteer basis?
<zequence> Seems like it, yes
<OvenWerk1> What state are they in right now?
<zequence> I already began work on categorizing applications, for Ubuntu Studio. I think it would take a bit of work, but we could go through with that, and then update the debtags in Debian.
<zequence> ..with the categories that we define (as closely in line with upstream as possible, only adding when needed)
<OvenWerk1> Ya, I would like to use upstream tags.
<OvenWerk1> I am not so worried about apps we ship so much as apps our users may wish to add.
<OvenWerk1> I see Studio as a working starting point that can do the workflows we set up, but realize that most users will need/want extra tools that I would like them to be able to find easily. (this is what the extra installer is for)
<OvenWerk1> So the head end of our installer is what needs the most work. The displaying and actuall installing is fine and can be changed or whatever.
<zequence> Yes, I was considering creating ubuntustudio-<workflow>-all metas, but don't think that's the way to go. Searching and finding apps easily is what is needed. 
<OvenWerk1> but the choosing of what to show the user is the big thing
<OvenWerk1> So far, I have just been making a list by hand.
<zequence> Yeah, that won't work in the long run. We need to work against standard systems - otherwise we either get a maintenance problem, or scewed categorization since too few heads were involved
<OvenWerk1> But for future we would want to make the search terms by hand and let the app find the apps to display
<OvenWerk1> It may also make sense to display the search terms on the top in a tree or hierarchiac manner and let the user add to or modify it.
<OvenWerk1> While all of the sw installers have a method of searching... I have found them all to be obscure... unless you are used to CLI ways of doing things and knew regx well
<OvenWerk1> The word frustrating comes to mind.
<OvenWerk1> (google isn't any better by the way)
<OvenWerk1> zequence: So I guess what I am talking about is a search interface.
<zequence> Tree view makes sense to me, with pre-defined categories. When searching for a keyword, if it is found in packages in many sub-categories they still get separated
<zequence> Rosco2: Hi Ross. I saw your email. Haven't got to answering those yet
<zequence> Rosco2: Just preparing a mail about what we have so far, and start discussions about what to do coming cycle
<zequence> Rosco2: But, one thing that does come to mind is the debug build problem that falktx has talked about sometimes. 
<zequence> Rosco2: That would be a job for debian-multimedia though, which is where we should do most of our packaging work anyway
<zequence> OvenWerk1: packages often belong to more than one category though, so it should show up in all it belongs to. A tree view could still work.
<zequence> OvenWerk1: One thing that would be absolutely great to have is having the link to the homepage of each application. It's found in control files for packages usually, so not difficult to add.
<zequence> Definitely the best source of information for an application IMO
<OvenWerk1> zequence: I would also like some kind of relevance feature... like when was the last time this package was updated? though cp probably hasn't changed much...
<OvenWerk1> Ya, USC has the homepage.
<OvenWerk1> In our case, we are just showing the first line of the description. perhaps hovering over description could show the whole description too.
<zequence> There could be a side view with the full description
<elfy> good afternoon 
<OvenWerk1> good morning
<zequence> But, it's also possible we could just help improve ubuntu-software-center instead, or another installer
<zequence> Hi elfy 
<OvenWerk1> A number of people remove USC as a first task after install.
<zequence> That is really up to them
<zequence> But, they probably get by fine with a terminal
<OvenWerk1> Yes, I am just saying building on top of USC may not be the best place.
<elfy> others probably do what I do - leave USC installed, lose it from menu and install synaptic 
<OvenWerk1> I do that.
<OvenWerk1> We have synaptic on the ISO though
<elfy> 'we' don't - I'm just in here as an interested party :)
<OvenWerk1> I know :)
<elfy> just making sure :p
<OvenWerk1> I follow the xubuntu dev on irc a bit.
<elfy> I just saw you in there - I'm not very observant :)
<OvenWerk1> We base Studio on the xubuntu desktop roughly, so it is good to watch where it is going
<elfy> yep - I'm kind of floating about with the aim of helping with QA for studio where I can
<OvenWerk1> debtags is not installed by default zequence 
<zequence> OvenWerk1: I'm aware. And, as I said before, I don't know yet how it all works
<zequence> Just that we should make use of them
<OvenWerk1> Downloading a browser to look.
<OvenWerk1> searching for Audio LV2 plugin reverb gives only one package :P (mda-lv2)
<OvenWerk1> removing the search term "plugin" adds invada-studio-plugins-lv2.
<Rosco2> zequence: Happy to help with build problems, have made a note of falktx
<OvenWerk1> removing the search term "audio" adds ir.lv2
<Rosco2> zequence, I got as far as listing all the packages with "debug" on. Only chased through 3 or 4.
<zequence> Rosco2: If you like, you can ask falktx in #kxstudio, who probably has a good idea which packages are affected - and at the same time, you could ask him about any other problems that Debian packages may have (in his opinion)
<zequence> He does his custom builds of many of the packages in his PPAs
<OvenWerk1> zequence: it seems to me that while we do ship ir, we do not ship any impulse files to go with it. Is there usch a package?
<zequence> OvenWerk1: No idea
<zequence> Aren't those created manually?
<zequence> I haven't got around to explore IR yet
<OvenWerk1> There are sites that have files that work wih it.
<Rosco2> Being new - Easy way to find packages we care about?
<OvenWerk1> I don't know what the legal aspects would be to packaging these files.
<zequence> Rosco2: We were just discussing categorization. You have the sections sound, video and graphics. I guess sound is the most interesting right now
<zequence> Rosco2: There are debtags too, which I've found to be a great tool, but packages don't seem to have correct tags, and I don't yet know how to use them for efficient searching
<zequence> Rosco2: Debian Multimedia Blend has these tasks http://blends.debian.org/multimedia/tasks/index
<zequence> Rosco2: Then, of course, you have ubuntustudio-audio, ubuntustudio-audio-plugins, etc
<zequence> Rosco2: The sound section in utopic http://packages.ubuntu.com/utopic/sound/
<OvenWerk1> zequence: searching for the search term "reverb" in a package menager turns up more packages than searching with debtags. Tap-plugins is missing from debtags.
<OvenWerk1> So debtags plus may be the way to go. Work on getting debtags to "catch up" at the same time.
<zequence> OvenWerk1: the package manager will search also in the description, but that is not always what you want though
<zequence> I guess for searching it is fine, but not for browsing
<zequence> In the case of reverb, that word will probably come up only when a reverb is involved. 
<Rosco2> Yes talk of debtags got me searching through my email archives. There was a call for people to help with tagging. Just reread the wiki.
<OvenWerk1> I am thinking debian linian needs to check to at least see the package is listed in the debtags BD and sugest the dev/packager add it.
<Rosco2> Trouble is debtags are not in Debian Policy, so not checked by Lintian?
<OvenWerk1> Thats what I mean.
<OvenWerk1> Rosco2: right now we have an installer utility for SW that many people might use but we don't want to ship by default.
<OvenWerk1> We spec what sw it shows by hand on the CL.
<OvenWerk1> we would like to change that by using a search based term(s) instead
<OvenWerk1> However we would like to maintain the close relevance we have now.
<Rosco2> OvenWerk1, Thanks - just looked at ubuntustudio-installer & the meta packages zequence mentioned
<Rosco2> Now I am a little more clued up!
<OvenWerk1> Rosco2: One other thing to mention, is that this installer is also used for those who have some other Ubuntu flavour besides ubuntustudio (lubuntu, kubuntu or vanilla ubuntu) and wish to install the Studio apps in that. This is why I have trid to use a simple UI that should be in all packages or is at least small to add. Probably in the future that might be qt. tk is supposed to be the default ui for python, but some falvours don't ship it to kee
<OvenWerk1> In the end, a person that installs very many studio apps ends up with GTK, tk, qt and maybe the kde libs too.
<Rosco2> I made that mistake in my early days with one package :-)
<Rosco2> Thought I would submit bug to Debian PTS to ask that missing debtags are highlighted.
<Rosco2> But it has already been looked at: https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=708772
<ubottu> Debian bug 708772 in qa.debian.org "improve the integration between debtags and the PTS" [Wishlist,Open]
<zequence> I'm gonna try get people to help out with tagging multimedia applications this cycle. Need to find out more about how it works though
<Rosco2> https://wiki.debian.org/Debtags
<zequence> Yep, haven't had the chance to read through it yet
<zequence> doing kernel maintenance currently
<Rosco2> I haven't tried, but wiki says anyone can do it
<zequence> Yes, it even seems one can do it directly using a web interface
<zequence> But, not sure where tags are defined. And who holds the keys
<zequence> Anyways, I'll be looking into that later
<zequence> OvenWerk1: Just realized that installing extra packages from the menu only shows packages aside from those in our metas, be they installed or not
<zequence> If only installing the menu, or as now with trusty, ubuntu studio without any of the recommends to the metas, the extra install option becomes a little peculiar, like it was missing most of the goods. Using the meta installer would of course fix that, but it would be better if the installer always compared to installed packages, or like synaptic, just showed installed packages as checked (and unchecking would uninstall)
<zequence> In this case, it would also make sense to use tags or categories to populate installable applications, instead of adding them one by one
<OvenWerk1> zequence: Yup, that is true. It was designed when there was no choice but to install the whole meta or not.
<OvenWerk1> The whole selection process now needs to be redesigned
<OvenWerk1> Using the CL to list apps or even search may no longer work. I will have to think about it. I had wanted the app to be generic, but it seems that will not be possible. I think we will end up with a commandline config file That holds what each instance should show. It should be able to handle a mix of package names and search criteria.
<OvenWerk1> It probably needs a way to understand when a package is a meta or not.
<OvenWerk1> This will also keep the desktop file from getting messy
<OvenWerk1> It could still be generic using switches. -m meta package -c configfile etc. Packages could still be just listed as is so long as they are first.
<OvenWerk1> So a command line might be:
<OvenWerk1> installer package1 package2 -m metapackage1 metapackage2 -c configfile -s search terms
<zequence> You don't think that makes it overly complicated, and still too custom for the exact situation you are designing it for?
<zequence> One way to go would be to use a db, sort of like the debian package cache, but with categorization that we have determined, with the help of sections (such as sound, graphics, video), and debtags?
<zequence> Then, let the installer show all packages, but with the ability to browser. 
<zequence> It's called ubuntustudio-installer, so it doesn't need to be more generic than that
<zequence> browse*
<OvenWerk1> Parsing CL is not that hard as there are tools just for that. So building that in is not hard. Keeping a local DB sounds like it would require mainaining.
<zequence> That is the work we need to do anyway, with debian tags
<zequence> Until the tags are worked out upstream, one could use a static file. Also, one needs to work out how to use the tags with the installer, if wanting to build a cache from just the debian package db
<OvenWerk1> There are some kinds of packages we would never show like lib* or *-dev
<zequence> tags take care of that too
<zequence> One can use tags to both whitelist, and blacklist
<OvenWerk1> I think we need an app spec.
<OvenWerk1> I think we should break it up into features to work on first and then second.
<OvenWerk1> So we can start with enough features to use now and then add more as we go.
<OvenWerk1> So if we start where we are with an app list, the next thing is to list both installed and not with the installed marked.
<OvenWerk1> the next thing is to add meta expansion.
<zequence> I'm working on how to discuss feature specs for this cycle. I think I will start one email subject for each project blueprint that seems relevant, trying to address the most important stuff
<OvenWerk1> Ok
<zequence> This is what I've written down so far https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/UtopicUnicorn/WhiteBoardSpecs
<zequence> Going to split that up into several emails
<OvenWerk1> My thought with the installer is to always have a working app and have steps in managable sizes so whoever is working on it keeos from giving up.
<OvenWerk1> I am trying to think longer term in other words because I know I sometimes take some time away.
<OvenWerk1> It would be nice if we could build directly on someone elses flavour.
<OvenWerk1> Like take xubuntu's seed set and just overlay our own.
<OvenWerk1> +1 for ubuntustudio-audio-minimal
<OvenWerk1> It should set up jack and the user for RT work auto matically.
<OvenWerk1> zequence: ^^
<zequence> OvenWerk1: I will try to address that in other ways. Either making rt-kit working with jack, or creating a new default group
<zequence> For trusty, I still need to make ubuntustudio-controls administer realtime
<zequence> Possibly, it will need to do that for utopic as well, if nothing else was done
<OvenWerk1> zequence: how it is done, I don't care, but it should just work without having the user do something.
<zequence> Yes, agreed
<zequence> OvenWerk1: Seems Xubuntu has a new project lead: ochosi
<OvenWerk1> zequence: Re: linux-rt part of this will be our grub setup. Our controls app should be able to set which kernel is default.
<OvenWerk1> I had heard they were changing. He should do well.
<zequence> OvenWerk1: Added it to blueprints whiteboard, so I don't forget
<OvenWerk1> zequence: (from reading the BP on controls) using ms is fine, but internal audio like HDA needs 3 periods for lowest latency. Might be an idea to go in steps of frames and periods. 256/2-10.7ms 128/3-8ms 128/2-5.33ms 64/3-4ms (HDA lowest) 64/2-2.67ms (My HDA will not let jack start at 64/2)
<zequence> OvenWerk1: Yes, I
<zequence> 've considered that
<zequence> Not sure how to do that in the best way
<OvenWerk1> zequence: so long as it is in spec the details can come later.
<OvenWerk1> It may be enough to set the user at 2periods or 3 and just change the frames.
<zequence> OvenWerk1: I'm considering moving detailed specs into wiki pages from now on, and make workitems more hands on, and related to bugs
<OvenWerk1> That would be fine.
<OvenWerk1> Each project could have one feature request bug added as the work progresses if that helped.
<zequence> Might be enough we just make a list of features on a wiki page we want to have, then implement them as best as we can
<OvenWerk1> That is where we should start certainly. change things if it looks like it would help.
<zequence> OvenWerk1: Also, I'm going to make a point of making specs as clear as possible before week 9 or so, of this cycle, and then I will look through each one and approve them, before they are good to go
<zequence> After that, we do as little specs as possible. Just work on what we have agreed on
<zequence> Or fix new bugs that come along
<OvenWerk1> ok.
<aleb> I subscribed to https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntustudio-meta/+spec/ubuntustudio-video-u, this is what I'm interested in. Curious to see what the workflows will be. :)
<OvenWerk1> Ahh, aleb perhaps you can guide us in that.
<zequence> aleb: You do any video production?
<aleb> I'm only an amateur
<zequence> I'd say all of us are, in the video area
<OvenWerk1> aleb: the workflow might be: import video -> reformate for editting -> edit video -> add sound -> render to final format -> add menuing for DVD -> print to DVD
<OvenWerk1> But I susspect it may be a lot more rigorous than that.
<OvenWerk1> We have no SW for story boarding for example. There are a number of administrative things that would normally happen before shooting any video.
<OvenWerk1> As an amateur, most of us would do these things in our head
<OvenWerk1> But writing them down first is better. Having a clear idea of what shots are needed can save a lot of time.
<OvenWerk1> Once the shooting is done, however, the video needs to be converted into a format that works well with whatever video editor is chosen. Some editors are very good at doing this internally. Some are not. Some offer the ability to have a script set to do this too.
<OvenWerk1> most of the editing will be done in one program. Effects will be added here too. On a simple project audio may be done within as well.
<OvenWerk1> on a more complex project the whole audio workflow for audio recordng may apply as well.
<OvenWerk1> The editor will normally render it to whatever video format(s) needed and so the video ends up as a file(s).
<OvenWerk1> then it has to be packaged. (printed to DVD or uploaded or whatever) For a DVD menus ned to be added with whatever art work. There may be art worl for the front of the DVD and case as well.
<OvenWerk1> aleb: probably the two most used workflows for video might be some one who videos events such as weddings and prints them to DVDs and someone who makes videos to upload to youtube... like instructionals.
<OvenWerk1> VJing might be another, but that would tend to be a one app workflow and depend on that app more than anything.
<OvenWerk1> Note: I have left a lot out. While I have worked Broadcast at one time (early 80s), TV and video making are not the same thing.... and I did everything with tape.
<aleb> Are people still using DVDs? :)
<OvenWerk1> :) someone who is videoing a wedding will be printing DVDs
<aleb> I imagine the list of needed shots could very well be written / sketched on paper. I wonder what pro software can be used for this.
<OvenWerk1> I don't know. I wish I could see a complete list of how someone like the "tube" project did things (Blender.org)
<OvenWerk1> http://urchn.org/
<OvenWerk1> One thing they and some audio people use is git. It may be that we should be shipping that.
<OvenWerk1> One of the DAWs actually uses it for saves.
<OvenWerk1> http://urchn.org/post/managing-animation-pipelines has a long list of sw used in production. This is an animated film so there are some tools a recorded video production might not use.
<OvenWerk1> aleb: ^^^
#ubuntustudio-devel 2014-05-11
<OvenWerk1> rakarrack does not like flying latency changes :)
#ubuntustudio-devel 2015-05-04
<OvenWerks> zequence: is there a correct way to copy our seeds from ubuntustudio.vivid to ubuntustudio.wily?
<DalekSec> OvenWerks: It'll be done for you.
<OvenWerks> DalekSec: Thankyou, sounds great. That is why I have never been involved before.
<zequence> OvenWerks: Yeah, we don't mess with the seed branch other than edit it
<zequence> I think cjwatson used to go through all the metas and update them to point to the new seed as well
<zequence> He's been doing other things for a while
<zequence> I'm putting together some sort of list we should go through for each release
<zequence> Making sure the config for the meta is correct is on it already
<zequence> I don't think W is open for business yet though. Haven't seen any annoncements
<OvenWerks> has a name though...
<zequence> http://ubuntuonair.com/
<zequence> They usually announce it. They need to set up the build tools first, etc
<OvenWerks> So when ISOs start rolling everything is set, got it.
<zequence> They might have some problems with compilers, other things. Don't think they've had a lot of time since release to work on it.
<zequence> There's probably no archive to upload to yet either
<zequence> We can of course work on our branches in the mean time
<DalekSec> Yeah, nothing to upload to yet.  I'm inpatient.
<DalekSec> -release topic will say, right now it only says Archive: Go For Beer
<DalekSec> Toolchain, then rest will follow
<zequence> Wonder how big the audience is for the keynote
<zequence> I'm in the IRC channel, and it's pretty empty
<DalekSec> Was busy.
<zequence> Ah, it's not live
<zequence> I'm kind of slow sometimes
<zequence> I'm soon off to pick up my ubuntu phone
<zequence> I've taken a quick look at the phone
<zequence> The system looks very much the same under neath
<zequence> The repos are all derived, and smaller. Filtered.
<zequence> You can find jackd, but no regular window applications from what I can see
<zequence> The version is not a regular Ubuntu release either
<zequence> I guess I need to find out a bit more about how this all works. What will happen when you add repos, or install GTK or QT apps
<OvenWerks> zequence: one has to remember the smaller memory footprint too. Both for RAM and non-volitile storage.
 * OvenWerks feels funny about call a chunk of memory a "disk" or "hard drive".
<DalekSec> OvenWerks: You will have to update all the -artwork and -settings bzr branches though.
<OvenWerks> DalekSec: I don't think we call them by a version outside of changelog.
<OvenWerks> maybe I am missing something...
<DalekSec> Ah.
 * OvenWerks doesn't do the uploads
#ubuntustudio-devel 2015-05-05
<DalekSec> Looks like ardour4 is about to make it.
<DalekSec> ardour3 4.0~dfsg1-1 uploaded by JaromÃ­r MikeÅ¡
<zequence> Nice
<zequence> Wily Werewolf is now open for development
<holstein> werewolf?
<elfy> yep
<OvenWerks> holstein: I don' know, who's wolf?
#ubuntustudio-devel 2015-05-06
<zequence> These namings make me learn more English
<zequence> Think I'm going to do a couple of apps for the phone this month, to see how that works
<zequence> Would be nice to get controls for jack to begin with. Also, some simple recording software.
<zequence> ..and I'd like to be able to run pd patches on it as well
<zequence> Actually, might as well make -controls have an app version, which can set up rt privilege and control jack, and PA integration
<zequence> I'll start working on that next week, once I get inemployed again
<zequence> unemployed*
<zequence> I'm thinking of scopes too. We should add a Ubuntu Studio scope
<OvenWerks> zequence: how is the latency? Are you dealing directly with alsa? It seems to me the docs I have read indicate that androids latency problems come not from HW so much as the extra layers between alsa and the application.
<zequence> OvenWerks: Seems to be PA. Haven't actually investigated
<zequence> I tried the simple piano app, with which you can play one note at the time
<zequence> There is latency, no doubt
<zequence> But it's not half a second. It's small, but very audible
<OvenWerks> zequence: on android a simple piano is not playable because of latency
<OvenWerks> I also put a "drum kit" on it and it was a waste of time for latency
<zequence> Haven't tried anything with jack yet. There's probably nothing I can run with it
<OvenWerks> zequence: I think PA can be set to different latencys (buffer size)
<zequence> Still know all too little about the system, but I'm assuming you can have it run jack in realtime pretty easily
<zequence> Haven't actually tried PA latency on the desktop, so don't know how it compares
<OvenWerks> for most desktop use latency doesn't really matter
<OvenWerks> phone use is the only one.
 * OvenWerks considers tracking/swsynth not to be desktop use.
<zequence> Time to head home. bb in a while
<OvenWerks> ok
<OvenWerks> I just woke up :)
<zequence> OvenWerks: Good morning then :)
<zequence> The browser is ok on the Ubuntu phone, and I can make calls and sms's. Also, there's a pretty ok Kodi app, which I just found.
<zequence> Other than that, it's just good looking
<zequence> And, the indicator menu is not very fun to navigate, all though it looks cool
<zequence> I need owncloud support. Hard to get on any platform so you can get all-in-one
<zequence> I'm still going to prefer it over almost any other kind of phone right now.
<OvenWerks> zequence: my wife keeps threatening to give her old nex4 to me in which case I will be trying touch for sure.
<zequence> OvenWerks: I just had a go using the Ubuntu SDK. A lot of stuff I've never dealt with. 
<zequence> I think it was Nokia who developed QML, which is a javascript way of creating QT interfaces
<zequence> Then, you have a lot of other stuff to figure out too. And you can use C++, which I have never learned
<zequence> Also, not sure 2 month old examples are going to work on the latest IDE
<zequence> ..and libraries
<zequence> There are a lot of options for sure
<zequence> Going to take some time to get into it, and also learn a bit of C++ while I do that
<zequence> When you plug in the phone with USB, what you see is the home folder. Very simple. Music, Pictures, Downloads, etc
<zequence> I like that.
<zequence> Yeah, you might get a bit inspired too perhaps, if you get one in your hand :)
<OvenWerks> zequence: c++ is slow going for me. I can at least write working c, though I often find debugging someone elses code tough. I don't do so well writing c++ though.
<micahg> bug 1450992 was accepted to -proposed if anyone's interested in doing the verification
<ubottu> bug 1450992 in ardour3 (Ubuntu Utopic) "audio and MIDI files irreversibly deleted from disk" [Critical,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1450992
<OvenWerks> micahg: thankyou. Will take a look... after I figure out (again) how to enable proposed.
<micahg> OvenWerks: there's a link in the bug to do that
<OvenWerks> Good, what I was doing showed everything but ardour.
<micahg> s/to do/on how to do/
<kubotu> micahg meant: "OvenWerks: there's a link in the bug on how to do that"
<micahg> hi kubotu 
<kubotu> salut, micahg
<OvenWerks> Maybe it hasn't made it in there yet? (64bit)
<OvenWerks> got it
<OvenWerks> installed
<micahg> normal usage stress testing would probably be sufficient, I've never used it, so can't really speak to what testing is appropriate
<micahg> and that existing files open ok in the new version
<OvenWerks> micahg: That seems to be a problem... I have moved some sessions and they don't work anymore, but then they don't work in ardour 4 either. A new session works, records, plays back etc. and sessions that have not been moved work ok too.
<micahg> hrm
<micahg> that sounds like a big problem
<micahg> 3->4 can be understandable (would warrant a NEWS entry, but understandable), 3->3 seems problematic
<OvenWerks> micahg: At this point I really can't say when the last time I opened one of those sessions was. The saved file format for ardour 3 and 4 is supposed to be interchangable.
<OvenWerks> As I say, I may have mess them up when moving things around to clean things up give more disk space.
<OvenWerks> My project directory is now a link to another disk. This works fine for new projects.
<OvenWerks> *** Error in `/usr/lib/ardour3/ardour-3.5.403~dfsg-3~ubuntu14': double free or corruption (fasttop): 0x00007fc9780015c0 *** doesn't sound real good
<OvenWerks> Things created recently seem to work.
<OvenWerks> Things created with A4 work.
<OvenWerks> MIDI i/o works (for control surfaces anyway)
<OvenWerks> micahg: The stuff that is causing trouble was done in 12.04. And some that I have tried are originally a2 projects.
<OvenWerks> Anything current works, and anything that works with binaries from the ardour site works with the new a3 too.
<micahg> can you downgrade and create one in utopic or trusty and then upgrade again?
<OvenWerks> I am running trusty, I will try on an older partition.
<OvenWerks> B in bit.
<micahg> OvenWerks: I meant downgrade ardour :)
<OvenWerks> micahg: Thats ok. booted 12.04 (wow have things changed sinse then...)
<OvenWerks> created an ardour session with ardour 2 and one with ardour 3.
<OvenWerks> the new ardour 3 is able to load and play both of them.
<micahg> awesome
<OvenWerks> trying the downgrade ardour option too.]
<micahg> 12.04 doesn't have ardour3
<OvenWerks> Mine does...
<micahg> haha
<OvenWerks> (binary dl from ardour.
<OvenWerks> micahg: all of the sessions that didn't work on the new a3 don't work with 308 either
<OvenWerks> So I would put that down to bad files/sessions.
<micahg> ok, that's good, can we please also check if our ardour3 files created in trusty work with the new upgrade?
<OvenWerks> just doing that now.
<micahg> great, thans
<micahg> s/thans/thanks/
<kubotu> micahg meant: "great, thanks"
<micahg> salut kubotu 
<kubotu> yo micahg :)
<OvenWerks> I guess I have to upgrade again now... to try it out in 403
<micahg> right :)
<OvenWerks> looks good, plays back old project and was able to add another track and record. session saves and reloads too.
<micahg> awesome, so that means 14.04 passes?
<OvenWerks> micahg: this is not a real complete test, but that would really take a long time
<OvenWerks> I would pass it yes.
<micahg> well, I'll leave it to you and zequence how much testing you want to do for the SRU
<micahg> I'm just here to push buttons :)
<OvenWerks> Ja, where do I go to call it verified?
<OvenWerks> On the bug report I guess
<micahg> yeah, there should be instructions in the second link about SRU verification
<micahg> 14.10 will need to be checked as well
<OvenWerks> basically says add a comment to the bug.
<micahg> and the comment mentions updating the tag from verification needed to verification-done, but I'd suggest adding something like verification-done-trusty
<OvenWerks> right.
<OvenWerks> I don't have 14.10 available to me. zequence may have a loaded copy already.
<OvenWerks> zequence: I have tested ardour3 in proposed on trusty, do you have 14.10 installed somewhere?
<OvenWerks> zequence: it needs a verify there.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2015-05-07
<zequence> OvenWerks: micahg: Great. I will do some testing myself this morning.
<zequence> Ah, damn. Don't have U here. Need to do it once I get home. Lucklily I have a few projects that I've been working on that I can test on.
<OvenWerks> zequence: great. I am not sure, but I think I saw mention that ardour 4.0.0 is getting dropped into debian under ardour3. That should confuse people...
<zequence> OvenWerks: It's still packaged as ardour3, yep.
<zequence> But, I think the idea is to remove ardour, then make ardour4 be the one and only ardour
<zequence> The repo for ardour3 http://anonscm.debian.org/cgit/pkg-multimedia/ardour3.git/
<zequence> Get it with: git clone https://anonscm.debian.org/git/pkg-multimedia/ardour3.git
<zequence> Then, checkout the new ardour4 branch with: git checkout master-a4
#ubuntustudio-devel 2015-05-08
<zequence> Never had the chance to do testing yesterday. Will try get it done today instead.
<zequence> Was running around the city looking for deralailleur adapters and tools all day
#ubuntustudio-devel 2015-05-09
<OvenWerks> I have a question about our kernel... or maybe apt settings.
<OvenWerks> I also run ubuntuserver and it seems to keep about 3 kernel versions before it starts telling me I can use autoremove, in my Sudio machine I have over ten and no autoremove.
<OvenWerks> Is there something in the kernel package itself that sets this or somewhere else?
<OvenWerks> Is it maybe a matter of cleaning out the repo of older kernels?
<DalekSec> zequence: As promised: https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/dvdstyler/2.9.2-0ubuntu1
<zequence> DalekSec: Nice.
<zequence> We shold SRU that.
<DalekSec> :3
<DalekSec> Do people (try to) use that?
<zequence> Well, we have it in our meta, and it's not working apparently, so we should at least try to fix that for trusty, I think
<DalekSec> I've, err, still not used it myself, ever.
<zequence> Well, depends on if you have any use for DVDs at all, I guess. 
#ubuntustudio-devel 2015-05-10
<sakrecoer> hi
<sakrecoer> i have been mindmapping a few ideas and questions, but i'm hesitating as to _where_ to bounce the map...
<sakrecoer> i find the wiki to be a great tool. is it ok to write a sort of.. ehm.. blurb there? :)
<sakrecoer> wrong time of the day :)
<sakrecoer> or night :D
<zequence> sakrecoer: You could start with the mail list. I could point you in the right direction in the wiki, once I know what is what so to speak.
<sakrecoer> zequence: tahnks!
<sakrecoer> zequence: could we set a meeting here on irc sometime? many of the nodes and path in my mindmap are probably already deeply discucssed by you guys, hence i find it difficult to formulate by email..
<zequence> sakrecoer: I'm going to be here for the rest of the day pretty much, so you can bounce some stuff on me, if you like. Others will read the backlog and fill in later, no doubt.
<sakrecoer> cool!
<sakrecoer> i'm all tied up in the workflow brainstorm :)
<sakrecoer> i think its brilliant
<sakrecoer> but i wonder about its translation into menus
<zequence> Yes, Scott - the project lead before me, is the one who started the whole aspect of workflows, I believe.
<sakrecoer> i feel the "graphics, photography, video and publishing" are all "visuals"
<zequence> Sure. But, there are specific applications for all of them.
<sakrecoer> yes!
<zequence> graphics is kind of broad
<sakrecoer> just like with audio
<zequence> Yes
<sakrecoer> yet audoi is heavily subdivided
<zequence> The audio workflow is not subdivided into workflows that much though. Only tool types.
<sakrecoer> i feel like mixing is to audio, what graphics are to "visual"
<sakrecoer> no! but it is in the menu
<zequence> You mean mixers?
<sakrecoer> let me try that again :)
<zequence> I understand the remark you made of mxing to audio what graphics is to visual
<zequence> But, what subdivisions of audio workflows do you see in the menu?
<sakrecoer> the workflows should remain like they are, but i wonder about the translations of workflows into menus
<sakrecoer> if a selection was to be made from 2 roots: audio and visuals. i think half the path to menuless DE is paved.
<sakrecoer> i'm thinking purely on a interface level...
<zequence> Each meny item has one or more categories
<zequence> When you search for it in a menuless system, you can search on any of those categories
<zequence> In a menuless system, one application can have many purposes, and you can search on any of the purposes
<zequence> At least, ideally, it would be so
<zequence> The current categories used in the menu are freedesktop categories
<zequence> http://standards.freedesktop.org/menu-spec/latest/apa.html
<sakrecoer> i see..
<zequence> I would have liked to develop that. Make sure all the desktop files have correct categories, and invent new ones if needed
<sakrecoer> publishing is not a part from it?
<sakrecoer> ok
<zequence> Don't remember actually.
<zequence> I never had the time to get started on this myself
<zequence> The menu we have now is populating the items using a custom list in the menu file
<sakrecoer> maybe taht link you gave me is old?
<zequence> I would rather the meny was autopopulated from correct categories
<zequence> It's old, but it's the standard
 * OvenWerks would like that too.
<sakrecoer> well, it seems to me ubuntustudio is already breaking that standard?
<zequence> There's also another system in the works, called debtags
<zequence> Yes, but we did that before we started talking about freedesktop categories
<sakrecoer> ok
<zequence> What we do is not only for Ubuntu Studio, but for all of Debian.
<OvenWerks> sakrecoer: if we don't "break" the standard then all the audio apps are one big mess.
<sakrecoer> i understand
<zequence> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/FreedesktopCategories
<sakrecoer> thanks!
<zequence> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/WorkflowCategories
<zequence> These are just stubs more or less
<OvenWerks> The problem as I see it is that the standard has stopped moving or keeping up with people's needs.
<sakrecoer> its poorly updated...
<sakrecoer> yes..
<sakrecoer> i would very much like to help you push it forward :)
<zequence> Well, it's cause no one has been working on it :)
<zequence> This too https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/Debtags
<OvenWerks> Part of that is that newer desktops are moving towards a more Android like experience.
<OvenWerks> So there is no push from big players to move the standard forward.
<sakrecoer> if you don't mind i would very much like to update the wiki, to be able to work from that.
<sakrecoer> i'm thinking this in 2 phases:
<sakrecoer> 1. synchronise wiki with current DE state of ubunstudio
<sakrecoer> 2. tweak it till it Hz :p
<zequence> You are free to help with this work. One guy has been involved in this in the past, and should be aware of whatever changes you make though.
<zequence> Let me get his name..
<zequence> Ross Gammon
<zequence> It's enough you announce any work on the mail list, and he will know
<zequence> Also, he might have opinions. He's been especially interested in the deb tags part
<zequence> He's the guy who edited the pages last time
<zequence> FreedesktopCategories and DebTags
<OvenWerks> zequence: is there a spec for debtags?
<zequence> Nope
<OvenWerks> zequence: is there a format in the desktop file for them?
<OvenWerks> same as  Catagories?
<zequence> I don't remember what it was I was thinking before
<zequence> Probably I wanted to sync the two
<zequence> ..as much as possible
<zequence> deb tags can be used to find software when you use a package manager
<zequence> Not sure any package managers do that yet
<zequence> Our installer could do that
<sakrecoer> i will reach out to Ross :) thank you
<zequence> Let me find the email he sent on his last work. It was 10 months ago
<zequence> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-studio-devel/2014-July/006016.html
<sakrecoer> ah great! :)
<zequence> I think that could be all of what has been done so far on that subject
<zequence> Ross did express interest in continuing the work, so just make sure to discuss or inform using the mail list, so he has the chance to catch up
<sakrecoer> of course! :)
<zequence> I added the deb tags page to the Dev Side Bar in the wiki, so it's easier to find now
<sakrecoer> thanks!
<zequence> sakrecoer: My idea of how we do things here is pretty similar to how Debian works. As long as no one has any objections to your work, we include it. If someone objects, or has counter ideas, we discuss it and try find the best option.
<OvenWerks> zequence: just reading about debtags... it appears they are not in the desktop files at all, but part of the package and stored in the *.deb file and therefore apt's cache.
<OvenWerks> This means it can be used for choosing a package to install, but might also be used when looking for an already installed package to run as well.
<OvenWerks> in the case where a package contains a colection of utilities, the debtags would relate to all of them and one hopes the desktop Categories helps sort things to an application level.
<OvenWerks> neither one of these things helps the cli user ;)
<OvenWerks> I suppose a cli browser could list commands included inside a package that matches a search though.
<zequence> We could make ubuntustudio-installer use deb tags
<OvenWerks> zequence: we should.
<zequence> Also, not sure about Unity and gnome-shell, and others that use search as basis. Could be they could use that too
<OvenWerks> zequence: the question may be what lib or utility browses that... do any of the apt tools?
<zequence> But, yes, hard to add that to the menu, unless we have some sort of fancy script that generates the menu as a hook after each time someone installed something
<zequence> Not sure. I never delved much deeper into that back then
<OvenWerks> zequence: I am seeing that we do not have a web page IDE at all. maybe we should include one.
<OvenWerks> zequence: in publishing maybe?
<zequence> I was thinking the same thing, but that's not what you would usually call it I guess
<zequence> We could include another workflow - development
<OvenWerks> Ya, but where does that one stop?
<OvenWerks> web page creation could be a sub use for all the workflows.
<zequence> html and css could be seen as belong to some sort of graphics workflow, but I guess generally you'd put it under development
<OvenWerks> If we start a development workflow does it include tools for c? qt? gtk? cairo?
<zequence> pure data is in part coding
<zequence> supercollider too, though we don't include it, I tihink
<OvenWerks> yes and so is php and there are other things too. the question is how wide do we want to go?
<sakrecoer> jekyll would fit nice in webpage creating as it includes a webserver on :4000
<OvenWerks> The installer does allow the user _not_ to install whole groups of packages or to cherry pick.
<zequence> But, isn't jekyll more about content creation than development?
<sakrecoer> no, its about site devloppement
<sakrecoer> to create content for jekyll you need text editor or audio/video editor.
<sakrecoer> whats is interesting is that it is made for static websites in html(5)
<zequence> I'm not against adding a development side to what we offer. Especially if the user has the option to not install stuff, as is the case now pretty much.
<sakrecoer> yes, indeed... i don't think jekyll is an imperativ in any way :)
<sakrecoer> but speaking of web publishing and audio visual: http://sourceforge.net/p/kid3/feature-requests/59/
<OvenWerks> How much should be included in the ISO?
<zequence> We have a lot of space. I would like to see a CD size ISO before we increase the current DVD size though
<sakrecoer> i remember there used to be a file tagger included before. i believe it was with thunar, but is there any ID3 tagging app by default in ubustu now a days?
<OvenWerks> It would be nice to include new things in an after ISO install desktop installer first. It would be great if it sent back stats as to what SW people actually install.
<sakrecoer> since i havn't found any, i've been a heavy kid3 user lately...
<zequence> Is that for tagging audio files?
<sakrecoer> yes
<zequence> Don't think anyone mentioned that at any time. Guess most of us don't use'em so much. I do sometimes, but tbh, hadn't thought about adding one
<zequence> We should, I think
<OvenWerks> yes.
<zequence> Ok, let me introduce sakrecoer to our feature specifications
<sakrecoer> Kid3 is my favorite, i've tried many... but it just an opinion.
<sakrecoer> :)
<zequence> Generally we only include one application for each specific task. In some cases, we make exceptions
<OvenWerks> Many audio file creation apps will allow one to specify tags at creation time, but being able to modify them after is very worthwhile.
<zequence> Like, we include both ardour and qtractor
<zequence> sakrecoer: Feature specifications are called blueprints at launchpad.net
<zequence> sakrecoer: Here's all of our blueprints so far for the X release (16.04) https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntustudio/+spec/ubuntustudio-topic-x
<zequence> Consider 15.10 a Beta of 16.04
<OvenWerks> kdi3 is KDE? we do have some kde apps so it would not add much, but running a KDE app leaves extra kde BG stuff running after the app closes. So for a small app like this that is not the best.
<zequence> The page you are looking at is the main topic. It has dependencies to all other blueprints further down
<zequence> sakrecoer: This is the meta blueprint. It has dependencies to all of our metas https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntustudio-meta/+spec/ubuntustudio-meta-x
<sakrecoer> yeah, i'v thought about that kde issue, its the downside of Kid3, i'm not superfond of kde... but the other ID3 taggers available in software center i haven't had very great experience with...
<zequence> In the case of an audio file tagger, I would put it in ubuntustudio-audio
<OvenWerks> Someone doing Audio creation is not likely to be using kdenlive and so a kde file tagger would be the only kde app in the audio workflow.
<sakrecoer> thanks zequence :)
<sakrecoer> i've been wanting to ask about blueprint thing :)
<OvenWerks> How about kid3-qt?
<zequence> So, I added a line on the Whiteboard for https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntustudio-meta/+spec/ubuntustudio-audio-x
<sakrecoer> oh... thats the one i run ... hmm...
<sakrecoer> kid3-qt
<zequence> sakrecoer: If you have further ideas on what to add to any of the metas, just put something on the whiteboard.
<OvenWerks> kid3-qt has no kde deps.
<sakrecoer> true... missed that completly...
<sakrecoer> thanks zequence!
<zequence> sakrecoer: The first few weeks we do feature definition. There's a rough schedule here https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/DevelopmentCycle
<OvenWerks> kid3-qt shows no kde BG running when it does so that is fine.
<zequence> The main date to look out for is when feature freeze happens. We can add and change stuff until then, without problems. After feature freeze, we need permission each time we do an upload.
 * OvenWerks has a list of apps to exclude from media playback and add to audio production...
<OvenWerks> *in the menu stub
<zequence> Ah, yes. The menu might need to be refreshed a bit
<OvenWerks> There are some audio tools that might be interesting... like the jaaa and japa tools, also a tunner (guitar or otherwise) would be nice
<zequence> sakrecoer: Oh, if you want too keep up with changes for the blueprints, make sure to subscribe to the ones you care about
<sakrecoer> about the schedule: weeks are counted from 1 week of the year right? :D
<zequence> No, from when development begins
<sakrecoer> oh...
<zequence> Roughtly the last week of April, or the first week of May for this cycle
<sakrecoer> so... how do i read the dates?...
<zequence> There's no actual schedule yet
<zequence> But, consider May feature definition period
<sakrecoer> ok :)
<sakrecoer> so when you write: "Oh, if you want too keep up with changes for the blueprints, make sure to subscribe to the ones you care about" thats in launchpad right?
<zequence> OvenWerks: I haven't kept up to date at all with changes in the repo
<zequence> sakrecoer: Yes. There's a blueprint for each package basically. That's how I'm organizing them
<sakrecoer> ok :) thanks!
<zequence> ubuntustudio-meta is the source code package for all of our meta packages
<zequence> That's always a good place to start
<OvenWerks> I am only mentioning tools I happen to use. The two ja* tools are useful for live sound
<zequence> OvenWerks: Would be good for us to go though the whole categories of audio and graphics, etc, to find out what else is out there
<zequence> I made a script that created a list of stuff at one time
<zequence> There could be other ways
<OvenWerks> I think a submenu for audio utilities may be in order.
<zequence> Sure
<OvenWerks> We group some of the high use ones in the main audio menu, but for less used ones it would make sense.
<zequence> We could have a submenu for jack
<zequence> If I can get -controls to control jack and PA, then that would be the beginners first choice
<OvenWerks> what would go in there... or what would not go in there :)
<sakrecoer> aha... now i think i see how tightly interconnected the workflow concept is to the menu system...
<zequence> qjackctl at least, and any other jack control app
<zequence> But, audio utilities might be better, yes
<OvenWerks> Yes I was thinking -controls would replace things like qjackctl... or could even lanch it if needed
<OvenWerks> *launch
<zequence> I'm thinking -controls launches at boot. User makes some first time settings, like does the user want jack always running, etc
<zequence> It also has a system check script which runs at each login, and informs if something is not working right
<zequence> I still need to finish the simple version, which only handles RT privilege, and SRU it to trusty
<zequence> Way behing in the schedule
<OvenWerks> qjackctl seems to be more robust as a connections manager than patchage, though I like the patchage layout
<zequence> Yep. Patchage only starts jackd as well
<zequence> At least last time I looked
<OvenWerks> I have had patchage crash on me to many times to use it all the time.
<sakrecoer> i always confuse patchage and gladish...
<zequence> sakrecoer: The menu became a direct reflection on the workflow idea
<sakrecoer> personaly i use the patchbay in qjackctl ...
<zequence> I never really liked adding audacity to the video workflow, or strictly speaking - to the video meta
<zequence> There are a couple of other packages that are duplicated in the metas
<OvenWerks> sakrecoer: that is why you will find some apps in the menu twice.. in different workflows
<sakrecoer> yeah... that "audio" enrty in video is very confusing..
<zequence> Well, actually. Having it in the meta is not bad. But, you would always look for audio applications in the audio category
<zequence> So, let me change my words there :)
<zequence> Our ubiquity plugin is not that smart though. It doesn't handle duplicate packages well
<OvenWerks> I have no problem with taking the audio sub out of video.
<zequence> Would be better to just let the user choose between the metas, not the individual packages
<zequence> ..or smartify the plugin
<zequence> If an application can be used for both graphics and video, I can understand it being in both those categories
<OvenWerks> zequence: last time I installed it seemed to handle individual packages even across two metas. disabling a package in one meta automatically removed it from the other as well.
<zequence> But, audacity is not used for video, so I agree on removing it too
<zequence> OvenWerks: Really? I have not changed the code. I need to check that behaviour again
<zequence> Not good if it removes a package from the wrong meta
<sakrecoer> i would really like to push for a "visual" node in the blueprint.. this node would then connect to photo, graphics, video and publishing...
<sakrecoer> by node, i think i mean meta... or maybe its meta-meta?
<zequence> sakrecoer: The blueprints are organized after the actual meta packages
<OvenWerks> I would think if a user chooses an app they don't want in any workflow they just don't want it. but if unchoosing a whole meta removes things from other metas that is no good. I did not check that.
<zequence> What you are suggesting is we have a visual meta that includes all the graphic metas
<OvenWerks> That does not make sense
<sakrecoer> yes, ubless it would imply intolerable amounts of headbending and work...
<zequence> sakrecoer: I still think there's a difference in how we organize the audio menu to how you think of suborganizing the visual workflow
<sakrecoer> unless even
<zequence> IN the audio menu, we suborganize by tool type - not workflow
<zequence> This is not true for the categories of video, photography and pulbishing
<sakrecoer> thats what i owld like to see in the "visual" menu..
<zequence> While, I agree that graphics is a broad field
<zequence> Ah, right
<sakrecoer> tool types would be: 2d, 3d, video and publishing.
<zequence> So, you think we should organize our metas by the tool types too, in sub metas?
<sakrecoer> i feel to unexperienced with the thinking thinkering to claim we should... but i'm playing with the idea, yes
<zequence> I also think we should not forget photography, even if it has great similarities to 2D in general
<OvenWerks> The problem with sub menus, is that not all DEs handle them very well.
<sakrecoer> true... i was seeing photography in 2d...
<OvenWerks> The clasic menu in gnome3 is a good example.
<OvenWerks> (or bad)
<sakrecoer> i see... 
<zequence> OvenWerks: Perhaps we can join -installer with -menu, making it an app that you can use for browsing, starting, and installing
<zequence> falktx has something similar, I think
<OvenWerks> Unless we assume that desktops today are desined for casual use and development work (which all our workflows are) should have a real menu and desin a menu for the systray/indicator.
<zequence> If we have our own app, we don't depend only on the menu
<OvenWerks>  :)
<zequence> You had the idea of a systray meny app. That's worth exploring too, I suppose
<zequence> Unity is in a way that. It has categories, installed an non-installed. Even internet results
<OvenWerks> I would have no problem with incorporating the installer.
<OvenWerks> I think the icon needs to indicate if the application is already installed or not.
<OvenWerks> (or the text)
<zequence> A menu in the systray should probably not show non-installed apps, but a browser could
<zequence> Unity separates installed an non-installed in two different fields
<OvenWerks> It could...
<OvenWerks> They could show up as "Install some app" and then just "some app" when local
<zequence> Problem is if you have too many uninstalled application in the menu, just taking up space
<OvenWerks> I have seen things ship with an "install firefox" menu item for example
<OvenWerks> Well right now we have one menu item for install more * applications
<OvenWerks> We could leave it at that
<sakrecoer> software center?
<zequence> Yes, and I could even go with a single "Find more apps" button
<OvenWerks> no sw center
<OvenWerks> sakrecoer: we have our own (not very good yet) installer
<sakrecoer> right, i read that but forgot...
<OvenWerks> sakrecoer: we want to take the ubiquity plugin and use that instead.
<zequence> I need to go away for a bit, but I'll read the backlog
<sakrecoer> is that what you are discussing? as in not discussing the menu?
<zequence> Alternatives to the menu
<OvenWerks> and in addition to
<sakrecoer> i see ) sorry..
<OvenWerks> The two things are intwined
<sakrecoer> yes.. makes sense.
<OvenWerks> One of the things we want to do... is give DE choice or make adding Studio to an already installed *buntu a possibility.
<OvenWerks> So both our menu and installer needs to work with any DE
<sakrecoer> in many ways i think the current options to install aditional sw is very good.. but of course if it has to be integrated in many different DE it becomes more complicated...
<OvenWerks> Or maybe less
<OvenWerks> to put it another way it may have to be less complicated to work at all
<sakrecoer> yes, that is the optimal situation..
<sakrecoer> i mean... i see what you mean... :)
<OvenWerks> I would really like to have the menu applet from xfce as an indicator/systray applet
<sakrecoer> how is that different from now?
<sakrecoer> sorry if that is a dumb question... i guess i'm not sure about what an indicator/systray is as opposed to how the menu is now...
<OvenWerks> in xfce it would not be different, but in unity, there would be an indicator that was a menu
<sakrecoer> ok...
<OvenWerks> unity does not have a menu per say, in a systray menu I would not put the whole menu, just our workflows.
<OvenWerks> The menu has two functions:
<OvenWerks> 1) to start applications. unity does not need us to duplicate that. If the user knows what they want unity already works
<OvenWerks> 2) to show users what they have to work with. That is apps they don't know how to find in unity or new apps they have never tried before.
<OvenWerks> An experienced user might never use a systray menu and might disable it all together
<OvenWerks> Thats ok.
<sakrecoer> i see... but wouldnt' we need to do that for all DE available to ubuntu then?
<OvenWerks> systray/indicator covers them all
<sakrecoer> this asked, i agree that adding only the workflows to the existing menu is optimal..
<sakrecoer> perfect!
<OvenWerks> systray is the older spec and indicator is newer
<sakrecoer> ok... i'm too unaware of these two elements to have a relevant opinion i guess :)
<OvenWerks> There is code that looks to see if an indicator area is available and use it or systray if not.
<OvenWerks> indicators normally fit in with the desktop theming better
<OvenWerks> unity does not come with a systray
<OvenWerks> xfce has both
<sakrecoer> which DE uses systray only?
<OvenWerks> lxde might
<OvenWerks> fvwm and others like that
<sakrecoer> ok
<OvenWerks> In some ways I would like an indicator that has a systray in it. There are some nice audio app systrays
<OvenWerks> I normally run qjackctl to start and stay in the systray for example.
<sakrecoer> i'm getting closer to a vision of what you are aiming for :)
<sakrecoer> dang it.. i have to get AFK....
<OvenWerks> I have to go to... gotta play in an hour or so,
<sakrecoer> thank you for your patience and thought food!
<sakrecoer> rock on1
<sakrecoer>  :)
<OvenWerks> any help would be wonderful!
<sakrecoer> count me in!
<sakrecoer> :)
<zequence> sakrecoer: Yes, thanks for joining us.
<sakrecoer> cya soon!
#ubuntustudio-devel 2016-05-09
<sakrecoer> autumna: the new latest version of font-manager works fine. It does hang on CFF fonts (first time i hear of the filetype, there are about 8 of them, i believe its noto for japanese)
<cub> sakrecoer zequence Ubuntu Studio and the new Project Lead got a mention in the Ubuntu Podcast episode 9, think it was around 26:10 something
<zequence> cub: Think you're getting IRC rights. Someone poked me about it.
<zequence> sakrecoer: YOu as well?
<zequence> The guy who poked me said we can just contact them directly when we want to add/remove people, since our channels are so small
<cub> yup got the email this morning
<cub> It must have been a long time ago we filed that request? I didn't even remember at first
<zequence> A few months, I believe
<sakrecoer> but i was poked too, about cub's application. obviously only answered good good and honest things.
<cub> I heard that Unit193 was elected to the IRCC as well. 
<OvenWerks> cub: I think unit193 would be a renewal. he has done things for us in the past.
<cub> OvenWerks maybe, I understood it as it was new elections to the council, but might be re-election though
<DalekSec> OvenWerks: Nope, elected not renewal.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2016-05-12
<sakrecoer> on the facebook-page, in the thread inviting to contribute to the feature-definition, quite a few people are saying that they miss synaptic and gparted.
<autumna> sakrecoer: were they supposed to be there?
<OvenWerks> autumna, sakrecoer: they used to be there yes. We lost them due to sync with xubuntu-desktop. May I suggest a ubuntustudio-utilities meta?
<autumna> OvenWerks: what I meant was was the change intentional. and I think ubuntustudio-utilities wouldn't be a bad idea
<OvenWerks> Note ubuntu (and perhaps debian) would really like to get rid of synaptic.... but I have not found any GUI that replaces it.
<OvenWerks> synaptic is not snap aware...
<OvenWerks> The desision to sync with xubuntu was intentional. The loss of these utilities was not. But being DE agnostic has been considered more important.
<autumna> no its just.. at least gparted was on livecd but not in install
<autumna> ergo I wasn't sure if the package was just missing accidentally or got removed by design so to speak :D 
<autumna> but yeah
<OvenWerks> gparted is used by the installer... so it is there as part of that and like the installer it is removed/not copied on install.
<OvenWerks> gedit, gparted and synaptic were originally added by design after xubuntu stopped including them.
<autumna> *listens*
<OvenWerks> mousepad has come a long way since then and so gedit is probably not needed. The other two are applications I install pretty quick on my machine.
<OvenWerks> In fact I install them just for testing a lot of the time. Synaptic in particular allows easy access to an application's depends and a list of installed files.
<OvenWerks> This is more important to someone developing a distro than using the distro for sure though.
<OvenWerks> One of the features of synaptic I consider very important is that it tells you what packages it is going to remove so it can install whatever it is you are thinking of installing.
<OvenWerks> niether USC or Software do that.
<autumna> OvenWerks: nah if you are a power user it does end up becoming handy too (synaptic) 
<autumna> I have mixed feelings about gnome software. it feels a bit clunky right now. 
<OvenWerks> autumna: gnome software is there so ubuntu can push commercial developers to use snap packages.
<OvenWerks> Or perhaps this is at the request of these people.
<OvenWerks> I think snap is diven by money interests rather than practical interests.
<autumna> what is the advantage of snap for commercial developers?
<OvenWerks> 1) it carries a specific version of libs with it.
<OvenWerks> 2) I think there are some security things in there that help with code blobs
<OvenWerks> 3) Something like synaptic will not tell the user what files are included :)
<OvenWerks> perhaps others.
<OvenWerks> Basically the packager has much more control and the user has less.
<OvenWerks> synaptic seems to be in maintenance only... some bugs are fixed from time to time... there are 4 merge proposals waiting right now.
<zequence> sakrecoer: I say we create a new meta package which is useful on all DE environments - and add synaptic and gparted to that meta
<zequence> Neither of those are DE specific
<OvenWerks> someone is trying to add snap packages to synaptic it seems
<zequence> sakrecoer: OvenWerks: we were discussing the option of adding a new package called ubuntustudio-desktop-common, and seemingly we have two candidates for that new package
<zequence> Two candidates for dependencies, that is - synaptic and gparted
<OvenWerks> zequence: sounds good. Perhaps make a diff from 14.04 and 16.04 (-desktop) and see if there are any other differences that make sense. (some things are better to let go of, gedit is no longer needed)
<OvenWerks> zequence: is desktop-core a part of desktop?
<OvenWerks> Not so easy as I thought :P
<zequence> OvenWerks: desktop-core is inherited into -desktop, so everything in -desktop-core is also in -desktop
<zequence> This is done in the file STRUCTURE
<zequence> OvenWerks: I'm pretty sure that most of the difference is of not matter - things that you can find on all DEs
<zequence> A text editor, a browser, etc.
<zequence> synaptic is no longer in any flavor, I think. gparted may be in some DEs
<zequence> gparted is IMO a DE agnostic disk manager, and is probably not absolutely needed
<zequence> ..since there are already disk management tools on all DEs
<zequence> But, I guess you could say gparted is to disk management what synaptic is to package management - slightly more manual
<zequence> ..and more advanced
<zequence> OvenWerks: I didn't know about the problems with editing the menu, btw. It's too bad ours is broken by the existing tools
<zequence> Wonder how much trouble it would be to fix those making them do things right
<sakrecoer> zequence, OvenWerks : such a meta is a very good idea.
<OvenWerks> zequence: Re: menu editors... No one is really interested in fixing things even with a merge or patch to do it for them. Even the opendesktop site says one thing in text and then the example menu layout goes against it. I put in patches for lxde, xfce, gnome, and xubuntu. The only one that was accepted was xubuntu.
<OvenWerks> The truth is that DEs are moving away from menus as fast as they can and while there is still a system menu available in xfce's panel... no one wants to improve it.
<OvenWerks> There are a lot of people who like the search style of application starting/finding.
 * OvenWerks finds proof of dinasourism in himself ;)
<autumna> yeah but one isn't a replacement for other.. 
<OvenWerks> autumna: that is correct, I use the system menu. Someone using the pc for entertainment is probably not using UbuntuStudio.
<autumna> well even if you are using the pc for entertainment. games, video players, other software, categorization never hurt anyone
#ubuntustudio-devel 2016-05-13
<cub> What is the alternative to gparted? Is there an alternative?
<zequence> cub: Gnome has gnome-disks. I'm sure KDE has something similar
<zequence> Don't actually remember what we and XFCE has
<zequence> have*
<cub> I've only used gparted so no idea
<cub> but gparted was dropped by Xubuntu as well? I wonder what they have as an alternative then. If they provide an alternative in the default installation
<OvenWerks> cub: so far as I can tell xubuntu does not come with any GUI based partition manager. fdisk and cfdisk are of course inherited from the base linux stuff.
<OvenWerks> I have not found any xfce partition manager. As Gparted does not have any itegration with any DE there is perhaps no need to make such a thing.
<OvenWerks> It just seems funny to me that we ship gparted on the ISO but do not install it :P
<flocculant> OvenWerks: afaik most of the *buntu things have gparted on the live, but not installed
<OvenWerks> flocculant: right, ubiquity needs it
<flocculant> yup - so do I often in live :p
<OvenWerks> In our case it would seem like a no brainer to just allow it to install as well.
<OvenWerks> flocculant: I can understand ubuntu valilla or xubuntu not having a partition manager. It can be a support problem if someone messes with partitions. The partitioning options in ubiquity are mostly of the "user doesn't know what they are doing we have to do it for them" type. The do something else is almost hidden and worded in a way to discourage it's use.
<OvenWerks> *vanilla
<autumna> OvenWerks: disk partitioning/formatting is pretty basic work through, and it is hardly the only way a user can mess up their system
<autumna> (frankly I know I have done more damage installing and uninstalling packages with apt-get than I did with partition even through the risk is there)
<OvenWerks> autumna: yes. I would include gparted. But there seems to be a notion within ubuntu that it should not be there.
<autumna> *nods*
<OvenWerks> It is certainly easier to use than fdisk.
<autumna> *snorts*
<autumna> that's like 2 very opposite ends of the spectrum
<autumna> I do personally find gnome-disk a bit more intuitive than gparted to be honest
<OvenWerks> yes but we (and all ubuntu) do ship fdisk
<autumna> (if gnome-disks is what I think it is)
<zequence> People will at least need to be able to format and partition external drives, so a disk partitioner is always needed in some form
<OvenWerks> there is gnome-disk-utility
<autumna> I'd much rather have the user know what they are doing with gparted even with the risk, than try to figure out how to use fdisk and risk even more breaking something because they don't understand what they are doing
<OvenWerks> gparted seems to be the only one that offers partition resizing.
<autumna> gnome-disks is really nice in that the other disks aren't hidden. but yeah gparted has a bit more options
<OvenWerks> I didn't think gaprted hid the other disks besides sda. But "Disks" does have them all very visible.
<cub> I think that if anyone feels they are savvy enough to play with partitions. They are also savvy enough to do apt-get install gparted.
<cub> Problem solved. :D
<OvenWerks> cub: anyone doing audio should be savvy enough to know they need jackd and install that too.
<autumna> I am with OvenWerks on this one. 
<autumna> somebody can be savy but not have time to google everything and be already familiar with linux
#ubuntustudio-devel 2016-05-15
<OvenWerks> Interesting, Taking a screen shot with show mouse off, still shows the mouse's shadow :)
#ubuntustudio-devel 2017-05-13
<OvenWerks> ifconfig
<krytarik> ip!
<OvenWerks> wrong keyboard... I guess
<OvenWerks> ls
<krytarik> >_>
<OvenWerks>  :P
<OvenWerks>  working on my pi with a second kb...keep missing.
<krytarik> lol
<OvenWerks> for some reason the dhcp client on the pi seems to have stopped working.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2018-05-07
<tarzeau> it'd be easy to upgrade qtractor to 0.9.0 (from 0.8.5)
<tarzeau> (even with the official packages)
<OvenWerks> tarzeau: step one, get qtractor upgraded in debian. Step two ask for a sync in ubuntu.
<OvenWerks> tarzeau: so check if there is already a bug report asking for update and create one if not.
<SlidingHorn> What are people's thoughts on adding Cadence & Carla?
<OvenWerks> Carla yes. cadence not as sure... the next ubuntustudio-controls pretty much replaces it
<OvenWerks> (and adds to it)
<SlidingHorn> I didn't even know USC was a thing...lol
<OvenWerks> SlidingHorn: I have been waiting to see one or the other make it into debian. So far no one has touched it... due to licencing?
<OvenWerks> -controls next starts jack at session start allowing using more than one audio device and allows seeting which ports pulse gets connected to.
<OvenWerks> -controls next will auto connect a USB device to jack as well
<OvenWerks> this will allow using the USB mic
<OvenWerks> (lets not call it a pro-mic :P
<ErichEickmeyer> OvenWerks: Cadence is GPL, there's no reason why it can't be added.
<ErichEickmeyer> https://github.com/falkTX/Cadence/blob/master/COPYING
<ErichEickmeyer> That said, with -controls being so good, it might just be something to add to the repos, but we'd have to work with upstream.
<OvenWerks> SlidingHorn: take a look at yesterdays log of #ubuntustudio for some of the problems Cadence gives for trouble shooting.Cadence is, Carla can be if some things are left out (like linux sampler) Carla would be a much better addition as there is nothing else that does what it does any more.
<OvenWerks> Opps the last part of that was in responce to ErichEickmeyer comment
<OvenWerks> Cadence makes system changes that are hard to revert temporarily without removing cadence.
<OvenWerks> I am not sure if that is good or bad :)
<OvenWerks> -controls makes any changes to pulse on the fly. Cadence does not deal with USB mics.
<OvenWerks> Adding cadence to the repos if -controls is default would result in conflict. Both can not be installed at the same time.
<ErichEickmeyer> Yeah, that's true. I think that is something that needs to be left to the user to decide, tbh. My biggest issue (and advantage for Cadence) is that, when using a dummy card, I can specify how many ports it has in & out, whereas with qjackctl I cannot. Is that something we can put in -controls?
<SlidingHorn> I didn't know about -controls to begin with, so I'll be playing with that to see how it works
<OvenWerks> Once I have -controls working as it should, it should be possible to allow both to co-exist.
<OvenWerks> I could certainly add dummy as an option and allow for number of ports in and out
<ErichEickmeyer> Well, here's my idea: I'll work on packaging both Cadence and Carla (and Calf 0.90.0) and have them in my PPA and, when -controls can do it, we'll try to push Cadence upstream. Carla and Calf can be more immediate.
<OvenWerks> I am finding I will have to rework the GUI yet again anyway :)
<ErichEickmeyer> OvenWerks: Oh man, sorry. :/
<ErichEickmeyer> Is the goal for -controls to be able to replace much of qjackctl's funtionality?
<OvenWerks> Well, in playing with USB stuff I am realizing that if the user has more than 1 USB device, things get wierd. I need to allow the user to tell which usb device to use as master if they want that.
<OvenWerks> qjckctl will be changing for sure Rui has announced that we should all watch his LAC presentation this year :)
<ErichEickmeyer> OH good. For all of its functionality, it definitely needs a revamp.
<OvenWerks> -controls is not set up to make connections or to show them.
<ErichEickmeyer> Yeah, that's where something like Carla could come in, and of course Ardour can manage connections.
<OvenWerks> -controls will start jack and add extra clients from hw changes.
<OvenWerks> patchage can work too.
<ErichEickmeyer> Unfortunately, patchage is unmaintained. :/
<OvenWerks> true
<OvenWerks> The author has gotten a real job... (with Ableton?)
<ErichEickmeyer> If we can get Carla in the repos, then I'd honestly recommend dropping patchage from our metapackages.
<OvenWerks> maybe look at Catia as a patch bay
<ErichEickmeyer> Catia is part of Cadence.
<ErichEickmeyer> Can't be separated.
<OvenWerks> the kxstudio repos show it as separate
<ErichEickmeyer> Strange. Any time I compile Cadence from source it installs /everything/. 
<ErichEickmeyer> Or if I install cadence from the KXStudio repos.
<ErichEickmeyer> They're not separate in github.
<OvenWerks> Ya, I see that, I downloaded Catia from kxstudio and Cadence is in there too.
<ErichEickmeyer> Yep.
<ErichEickmeyer> Carla, however, is separate.
<OvenWerks> Yes. I have built it here a few times... will have to again for 18.04
<OvenWerks>  I will see if I can build Catia separately
<ErichEickmeyer> Is it a build option?
<OvenWerks> looks like.
<OvenWerks> make catia should work
<ErichEickmeyer> Oh cool! If that works and can be packaged, there's our solution. That said, having Carla couldn't hurt, it's a good (potential) competitor to Waves Central.
<OvenWerks> I haven't played with cadence at all
<ErichEickmeyer> Try it out. Maybe we can take ideas and integrate them into -controls.
<OvenWerks> ErichEickmeyer: the hard thing about Carla packaging is that it does not use any auto build
<OvenWerks> When it builds it just seems to build with whatever resources it can find.
<ErichEickmeyer> Hmmm... I'll play around with it and see what I can come up with. Probably just needs some build dependencies defined.
<OvenWerks> I could not figure out how to set up a src package when I tried.
<OvenWerks> It needs a build script
<ErichEickmeyer> Might even be a matter of working with upstream (FalkTX). He seems like a reasonable guy.
<OvenWerks> (a custom build script)
<OvenWerks> falktx (now that he is no longer doing MOD) may be packaging for debian himself.
<ErichEickmeyer> I thnk he is, but he's still using his PPA as his repo.
<ErichEickmeyer> Perhaps, if that's the case, then it's just a sync request?
<OvenWerks> Yes, but it is easy to create a binary package... but debian/ubuntu require a buildable src package first
<OvenWerks> So the KXstudio stuff is binary, but there are no src packages I know of
<ErichEickmeyer> There's got to be a way.
<OvenWerks> That is why controls is in python rather than c++ in case you were wondering  ;)
<ErichEickmeyer> Easier to code, I get it. :)
<OvenWerks> I am sure there is a way... I just don't have the time and patience to learn it at this time
<ErichEickmeyer> No worries. If I were you, I'd focus on -controls. It's good stuff. :)
<OvenWerks> I really do want to get -controls our in the next 3 months
<OvenWerks>  And I have a half done bit in Ardour I want to get done before Paul adds his huge chunck of code.
<ErichEickmeyer> I'll see what I can do about Carla. I'm no coder (haven't coded since MS BASIC 2.0 on a C64) but I've been learning packaging.
<OvenWerks> It would be no problem to have catia run from with in -controls.
<OvenWerks> Carla is very easy to build (from my POV)
<ErichEickmeyer> Would you just call Catia from a button?
<ErichEickmeyer> Or make it a tab?
<OvenWerks> I think getting the depnds right is the hardest part.
<OvenWerks> from a button. Unless it is written in python.
<ErichEickmeyer> Pretty sure all of Cadence (incl. Catia, et al) is written in Python.
<OvenWerks> If it is written in python it would not be so hard to swallow it
<OvenWerks> Catia is a binary
<ErichEickmeyer> https://github.com/falkTX/Cadence/blob/master/src/catia.py
<OvenWerks> The Catia I downloaded from KXStudio is a binary file
<ErichEickmeyer> Which makes sense since he's probably compiling it before uploading it.
<OvenWerks> So maybe it is written in python but compiled to a binary for dist.
<ErichEickmeyer> That's what I'm gathering.
<OvenWerks> It is qt4
<ErichEickmeyer> The binary, yes. The code on github is ported to Qt5.
<OvenWerks> I was reading INSTAL.md
<OvenWerks> I guess it is out of date
<ErichEickmeyer> He just recently finished the port and hasn't updated his docs yet.
<OvenWerks> ya it says he finished the qt5 port 2 months ago.
<ErichEickmeyer> Yep. I'm subscribed to the watch ML for the project.
<OvenWerks> if you play with it his INSTAL file suggests libjack-dev don't install that!
<OvenWerks> you have to install the jackd2 version :)
<OvenWerks> Oh and they are all QT4 of course.
<ErichEickmeyer> Yeah, looks like he needs a branch to fix the Install file and a pull request to follow.
<OvenWerks> Catia when run is still looking for qt4
<OvenWerks> ModuleNotFoundError: No module named 'PyQt4'
<ErichEickmeyer> Sounds like a bug report needed.
<ErichEickmeyer> Or a dependency issue: python3-pyqt4
<OvenWerks> In any case, Carla just builds. Just make and it builds. Running make features tells what it wil (or has already) include. If there is something not included... look for the missing dep.
<SlidingHorn> so is the -controls application supposed to have a GUI?  It asks me for my admin password and then nothing (when selecting from menu)
<OvenWerks> SlidingHorn: that would be the old one
<OvenWerks> It should show the GUI with no password.
<OvenWerks> https://launchpad.net/~ubuntustudio-dev/+archive/ubuntu/autobuild
<OvenWerks> I normally down load the file and install it
<SlidingHorn> just add that ppa & install the new version
<OvenWerks> I dl just the file so I don't get all the stuff in there :)
<OvenWerks> But I think controls is the only active one right now.
<SlidingHorn> should I just grab the deb, or do I need the whole source package?
<OvenWerks> deb is fine.
<OvenWerks> once installed it will not do much till you have logged out and back in.
<OvenWerks> I see something else I could change/improve
<OvenWerks> (added to NOTES)
<OvenWerks> SlidingHorn: I use this on my daily machine. I have used something similar (not as refined) for over 3 years now.
<SlidingHorn> required cpufrequtils & libcpufreq0 - got everything installed
<SlidingHorn> will check it out in a min
<SlidingHorn> watching youtube vids and don't feel like logging yet lol
<OvenWerks> I should make it so it doesn't need cpufrequtils as that package doesn't really work right
#ubuntustudio-devel 2018-05-08
<SlidingHorn> All these xruns :/
<ErichEickmeyer> Anybody know how to get Debian to get their own package into unstable? https://salsa.debian.org/multimedia-team/calf
<tarzeau> OvenWerks: there isn't a bug asking for an update, but since i'm part of the maintainers, i've done an update, will try to get it sponsored
<tarzeau> if anyone wants to pre-try/test (i don't have usb/midi equipment)
<tarzeau> http://sid.ethz.ch/debian/qtractor/
<OvenWerks> I can run it I think, not a tracker kind of person. But I can make sure midi goes in and out and audio goes somewhere.
<OvenWerks> tarzeau: I notice the only .deb in there is 32bit. Is that going to pull lots of 32 bit libs into my system for testing?
<OvenWerks> tarzeau: I have saved the deb, later when I boot to a test partition that I don't mind being poluted with extra libs I will install/test ;)
#ubuntustudio-devel 2018-05-09
<tarzeau> OvenWerks: no my build/test host is 10 years old i386 that's why. preferred is source package
<tarzeau> OvenWerks: i can rebuild it for amd64 though (don't install i386 pkgs on amd64, that's BAD)
<tarzeau> should appear here, when finished building: https://people.phys.ethz.ch/~myczko/debian/qtractor/
<tarzeau> done, reload. feedback welcome
<OvenWerks> tarzeau: everything I know how to test works :P this is not much really. I can record audio or midi, I can add plugins both with GUI and with generic gui supplied by qtracktor. I can manipulate individual midi notes by time and frequency but have not figured out how to edit velocity
<OvenWerks> tarzeau: I do see lots of "QXcbConnection: XCB error: 3 (BadWindow), sequence: 3118, resource id: 9353275, major code: 40 (TranslateCoords), minor code: 0" kinds of messages, but that may be because the lib versions are sightly diffetrent from your machine to mine (yours is debian based mine is ubuntu 18.04)
<OvenWerks> However these do not seem to affect performance I have had no hangs crashes etc. RUI obviously thinks differently than I do. It would not be hard for me to use qtracktor for what I do, but not optimal either. But then I have been recording strickly audio where Ardour shines.
<OvenWerks> WHat I do find interesting is that qtrcktor seems to have audio/midi preferences... that is Audio is jack no questions, not alsa, not pulse, not OSS (thankfully) Midi is alsa, not jack or anything else. Though of course qtrcktors midi ports show up in jack through a2amidid
<OvenWerks> Now that may be because jack was running before I started qtracktor, I dont know. Certainly, qtracktor expects to be packaged with qjackctl :) it borrows connection graphs etc. :)
<tarzeau> OvenWerks: sounds good!
<tarzeau> so i should go for updating it, i guess?
<OvenWerks> tarzeau: I don't see why not.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2018-05-10
 * OvenWerks is now trying plasma, notices that it did not have an ugly orange boot screen
<OvenWerks> The default theme is the best default theme I have used yet.
<OvenWerks> Wow, that was odd. synaptic normally makes a dialog to ask about RT for jackd... this time it did not, I had to type yes into synaptics details
<OvenWerks> -controls is set to build for cosmic
<krytarik> https://code.launchpad.net/~ubuntustudio-dev/+recipe/ubuntustudio-controls-daily - then you must have disabled it again.
<krytarik> Nvm, I guess you never enabled it, and just did a one-time manual request.
<OvenWerks> we added bionic but not cosmic
<krytarik> Well, it didn't exist yet when I updated it last..
<OvenWerks> right
<OvenWerks> krytarik: just installed the ubuntostudio-audio meta... when I installed -controls,using apt apt is telling me that all the stuff from that meta is no longer required and I can remove them with autoremove :P
<OvenWerks> anyway, I will do a login and see where things go.
<OvenWerks> to be perfectly honest, I am sure I could have force installed the bionic version with no ill effects.
<OvenWerks> That controls is not as up to date as on my disk. I think.
<krytarik> Pretty sure it isn't, yes - because Ross reverted stuff earlier.
<OvenWerks> No because I haven't pushed yet :)
<krytarik> Dooooh!
<OvenWerks> Most of it works, but the cpu governor and Boost on/off don't get set at boot.
<krytarik> https://code.launchpad.net/~ubuntustudio-dev/+recipe/ubuntustudio-controls-daily/+edit - here, click dis, and enable Comics!
<OvenWerks> Quite honestly, plasma has so far been the best out of the box experience for audio
<OvenWerks> Even the audio controler is much better than it used to be.
<OvenWerks> As for the window stacking... I don't know how to tell what is right :P
<OvenWerks> Thats wierd, I installed ubuntustudio-audio in plasma with synaptic... everything installs fine. then I use apt to install the latest -controls... it shows all the apps in -audio as "no longer needed and can be removed...
<OvenWerks> I then used apt to reinstall -audio and it installs about 5 packages that require similar packages to be removed and everything is now fine.
<OvenWerks> I think it is in the order -audio tried to install things
<OvenWerks> (or synaptic tried to install things)
<OvenWerks> Hmm, I managed to crash plasma
<OvenWerks> Apparently the trick to get plasma to do the right thing with Ardour is: http://manual.ardour.org/ardour-configuration/system-specific-setup/kde-plasma-5/
<OvenWerks> I end up with a file ~/.config/kwinrulesrc which has:
<OvenWerks> [1]
<OvenWerks> Description=Settings for Ardour
<OvenWerks> above=true
<OvenWerks> aboverule=2
<OvenWerks> types=288
<OvenWerks> wmclass=Ardour
<OvenWerks> wmclasscomplete=false
<OvenWerks> wmclassmatch=2
<OvenWerks> in it.
<OvenWerks> ls
 * OvenWerks wants focus follows mind...
<ErichEickmeyer> OvenWerks: That solution presented by Ardour should be scriptable (plasma has decent UI scripting support). Think we could make a package with a script that does that by default as part of an "ubuntustudio-plasma-ardour-fix" thing?
<ErichEickmeyer> Oh and this guy made an awesome wallpaper: https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=1907210685957047&set=pcb.10155494658970509&type=3&theater&ifg=1
<OvenWerks> ErichEickmeyer: if it is in ~/.config it should be addable to /etc/xdg/ where kwin seems to keep it's system settings
<OvenWerks> The problem is knowing what the file name should be
<ErichEickmeyer> Yeah, but I'm thinking for people installing _after_ installing Plasma. Making a default setting at install time is one thing, but don't we want to offer both, i.e. the ability for US to be an add-on?
<OvenWerks> The plasma dev's attitude stinks: https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=172615#c26
<ubottu> KDE bug 172615 in general "Gimp 2.6 utility windows do not stay on top of the main window" [Wishlist,Resolved: wontfix]
<OvenWerks> The end comment is that gimp is usable as a "one window" application anyway so won't fix :P
<OvenWerks> this is someone who has never used a workflow where one window is not the best solution
<ErichEickmeyer> Uh... that's a bug from the 4.x days of Kwin.
<ErichEickmeyer> Probably long gone.
<OvenWerks> I would imagine 5.0 if it has the same problem for Ardour would require the same fix. The atitude remains
<OvenWerks> We will probably have to add a like part for gimp.
<ErichEickmeyer> I just played around with the mult-window in GIMP 2.8, and yes, when bringing up the main window of GIMP it kept the other windows below any other window. So, same problem as Ardour, but I don't think it's a bug in Kwin so much as Kwin is just not designed for how Ardour and GIMP have made their windows. The workaround would be a win if it's something we can script for our users.
<OvenWerks> Right
<OvenWerks> I am wondering if instead of looking for "Ardour" in the window tile we can look for everything :P or do we have to do this for each application that uses a tools window?
<ErichEickmeyer> Or, really, the ones that matter: GIMP and Ardour.
<ErichEickmeyer> I don't know of any other non-Qt apps that use mutiple windows so regularily.
<OvenWerks> none of the other paint programs use extra windows?
<ErichEickmeyer> It seems to handle most other apps well.
<ErichEickmeyer> MyPaint is single window, as is Krita.
<OvenWerks> it would be very easy to script or even add a file to /etc/.skel... they hate that though
<ErichEickmeyer> Yeah, I wouldn't add to .skel, otherwise we could be looking at a rejected package. It really should be scripted.
<ErichEickmeyer> You *could* even add something to -controls if it detects it's launched in Kwin.
<ErichEickmeyer> Like a button or checkbox: "Workaround for Kwin use in Ardour and GIMP"
<OvenWerks> For the size of the file... it could be added regaurdless  :)
<ErichEickmeyer> The only problem I'm having with Plasma is my computer's inability to wake from sleep. I need to further investigate, but it seems to be isolated.
<OvenWerks> I tend to forget about such things :)
<OvenWerks> But I know many/most people expect that to just work. I know jack has trouble with sleep waking too.
<OvenWerks> The default on a laptop is sleep when lid closed
<OvenWerks> anyone who is using kde or has been for a few years: has there been a lot of change every cycle or just continued movement?
<ErichEickmeyer> OvenWerks: Just continued movement. They seem to be adding more than changing, except when, for Plasma 5.12, they did a TON of optimization which resulted in a lower memory footprint, processor usage, and startup time.
<OvenWerks> That is what I thought. 
<OvenWerks> I have not installed kdesince 14.04 I think. so it seems a big difference to me
<ErichEickmeyer> Well, 14.04 was still Plasma 4. Everything is Plasma 5 now.
<ErichEickmeyer> Which was a huge change, but a welcome one.
<OvenWerks> :)
<OvenWerks> I used kde as my desktop for a number of years way back when I was using slackware before I got Studio
<ErichEickmeyer> Honestly, we could customize our defaults for Plasma to be identical to what we have in Xfce now in terms of layout.
<OvenWerks> I just did :)
<OvenWerks> well I did pretty muc before I booted back to Studio
<OvenWerks> ErichEickmeyer: however, I think if we choose another DE we should try to make the best use of the DE rather than make it the same as before.
<ErichEickmeyer> I understand, but easing transition should also be a priority. We could keep the default Breeze theme, change the background, change the "start" button to our logo, and move the panel to the top. That is all that would really need to be done.
<ErichEickmeyer> At that point, it's identical, but with the functionality of Plasma.
<OvenWerks> The default kubuntu theme is better than the breeze theme
<ErichEickmeyer> Uh... the default Kubuntu theme IS the breeze theme. Workspace is Breeze Dark, and window color & borders are set to Breeze.
<ErichEickmeyer> I wouldn't bother with Numix at all (our current default theme)
<OvenWerks> ErichEickmeyer: it would seem that way but when I switched from kubuntu to breze it changed
<OvenWerks> maybe I missed something
<OvenWerks> I am back in xfce again so I can't check
<OvenWerks> but yes, we could make those few changes. I like the panel at the top because my desk is cluttered and I sometimes can't see the bottom of the screen
<ErichEickmeyer> I think you were looking at the "Workspace Styles" which is basically a combination of different settings themed into one. The Kubuntu theme is Breeze Dark workspace and Breeze window borders and colors. The Breeze theme is Breeze workspace (not dark) but otherwise same as Kubuntu. Then there's Breeze Dark, which is Breeze Dark everywhere.
<OvenWerks> that could be. Theme naming is not very inuitive.
<OvenWerks> or to put it another way, the group of settings that make up the desktop look is confusing
#ubuntustudio-devel 2018-05-11
<OvenWerks> Muon looks like a good replacement for synaptic. it offers all of synaptics plus sides but runs as the user except when it needs to install.
<ErichEickmeyer> OvenWerks: I just responded to your email, and TL;DR: couldn't agree with you more.
<ErichEickmeyer> And, agreed. Muon is blowing Synaptic out of the water anymore.
<OvenWerks> ErichEickmeyer: I am not so sure about a ubuntustudio-next option, I think it is too much work.
<ErichEickmeyer> Probably. I just threw it out there and tried to see if it would stick.
<ErichEickmeyer> I'm expecting a negative email from Ralf any minute.
<OvenWerks> (On both of our's)
<ErichEickmeyer> Yep.
<OvenWerks> ErichEickmeyer: do you know if there is a way to set the size of konsole in charactors instead of pixels from the commandline?
<OvenWerks> I use two sizes quite frequently
<OvenWerks> This one is 90X40 and the rest are 80X25
<ErichEickmeyer> Probably not from the command line, but you could make separate profiles and specify those from the command line.
<ErichEickmeyer> One profile at one size, the other at the other size.
<OvenWerks> ErichEickmeyer: Ah, and then choose a profile from the CLI
<OvenWerks> Another thing I am wondering is if there is a best image format to use for our backdrops.
<OvenWerks>  the new BD are jpg but the current ones are png and I think the last contest had png as the target as well.
<OvenWerks> I know that jpg is "lossy" but I also know that the BD gets resized to fit the screen which is also a lossy process or at least it adds artifacts to the image.
<OvenWerks> In other words I am wondering if we should back out the last commit in -settings and use png only backdrops at least as default.
<ErichEickmeyer> OvenWerks: I'd try to move toward .png. It has decent compression and it seems to be more universal.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2018-05-12
<OvenWerks> ErichEickmeyer: maybe add that to next meetings discusion
<ErichEickmeyer> OvenWerks: Done
<ErichEickmeyer> Okay, time to give this bot a whirl...
<ErichEickmeyer> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Sat May 12 19:00:14 2018 UTC.  The chair is ErichEickmeyer. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
<ErichEickmeyer> #chair ErichEickmeyer
<meetingology> Current chairs: ErichEickmeyer
<ErichEickmeyer> #chair eylul
<meetingology> Current chairs: ErichEickmeyer eylul
<ErichEickmeyer> #chair krytarik
<meetingology> Current chairs: ErichEickmeyer eylul krytarik
<ErichEickmeyer> #chair captain-tux_
<meetingology> Current chairs: ErichEickmeyer captain-tux_ eylul krytarik
<ErichEickmeyer> #chair OvenWerks
<meetingology> Current chairs: ErichEickmeyer OvenWerks captain-tux_ eylul krytarik
<ErichEickmeyer> #chair sakrecoe1
<meetingology> Current chairs: ErichEickmeyer OvenWerks captain-tux_ eylul krytarik sakrecoe1
<ErichEickmeyer> Anybody else here?
<OvenWerks> WOW, I have never used meeting-whatever before
<ErichEickmeyer> LOL
<krytarik> It accepts multiple nicks at once btw.
<ErichEickmeyer> Good to know.
<ErichEickmeyer> How is everyone?
<OvenWerks> yes, very how.
<ErichEickmeyer> Such what, very how, super where. Wow.
<SlidingHorn> I'm here - sorry
<captain-tux_> #aggree
<SlidingHorn> wasn't paying attention
<ErichEickmeyer> Okay, not seeing eylul or SlidingHorn just yet, and the first item is involving them, so .... oh, there's SlidingHorn
<ErichEickmeyer> o
<ErichEickmeyer> o/
<SlidingHorn> o/
<captain-tux_> Oops
<ErichEickmeyer> Okay, so here comes the first topic:
<ErichEickmeyer> #topic New Website Theme (Eylul, SlidingHorn)
<ErichEickmeyer> So, how's the progress on that, SlidingHorn?
<SlidingHorn> Unfortunately I haven't gotten anywhere on that, my apologies.
<SlidingHorn> I'm not aware of what exactly needs to be done, however
<ErichEickmeyer> Well, it's really a matter of migrating the theme on eylul's site to ubuntustudio.com.
<ErichEickmeyer> And maybe getting some photos on there as well.
<ErichEickmeyer> As for the rest, she has more info.
<ErichEickmeyer> We can table that topic for now if you'd like.
<SlidingHorn> Okay, I'll make a point of contacting eylul within the next 24 hours to get that moving
<ErichEickmeyer> Okay, cool. I think if we got that theme going, we'd make a very public statement that we're making progress and moving forward.
<OvenWerks> I don't think eylul has been around... some of what we were saying yesterday should have gotten a comment...
<ErichEickmeyer> Yeah. I'm sure she'll turn up.
<ErichEickmeyer> Probably busy. Happens.
<ErichEickmeyer> Let's move on.
<ErichEickmeyer> #topic Desktop Environments
<ErichEickmeyer> OvenWerks: Loved your review of Plasma. Expressed my sentiments very well.
<OvenWerks> I think we should see if we can add a ubuntustudio-plasma meta to our repo.
<ErichEickmeyer> Agreed. I honestly think that should be our first addition, and maybe stick with Xfce as the default.
<OvenWerks> We should probably rename the current one to ubuntustudio-xfce
<ErichEickmeyer> Yeah. That'd be a good idea.
<OvenWerks> we could then take the current name and point it at one or the other as default.
<ErichEickmeyer> A transitional dummy package.
<OvenWerks> probably not transitional, but as a way to point people at the default who have no idea what xfce or plasma mean
<eylul> *sneaks in to the room*
<OvenWerks> o/
 * ErichEickmeyer notices a wild eylul appears
<ErichEickmeyer> Quick! Get me a pokeball!
<captain-tux_> (stealth check failed)
<eylul> :) oh dear.
<ErichEickmeyer> haha
<ErichEickmeyer> Welcome!
<SlidingHorn> *natural 1*
 * eylul quickly catches up to the backlog
<ErichEickmeyer> ROFL
<eylul> and please continue the discussion don't let me disrupt the meeting. sorry for being late
<ErichEickmeyer> No worries.
<ErichEickmeyer> OvenWerks: Do you think you could take the kubuntu-settings-desktop package and modify it to be more "Studio" like? Simply put, wallpaper and start button.
<OvenWerks> ErichEickmeyer: I will try...
<ErichEickmeyer> Okay, cool.
<OvenWerks> I have both a bzr -controls and a git -controls sitting here and will try converting the LP version to git.
<ErichEickmeyer> #info OvenWerks to work on forking kubuntu-settings-desktop package and create ubuntustudio-plasma package.
<ErichEickmeyer> (may have misused that command)
<OvenWerks> I will try starting the plasma as git.
<ErichEickmeyer> Perfect. That would get us migrated easier, I think.
<krytarik> That's #action
<OvenWerks> I was about to say that...
<krytarik> #undo
<meetingology> Removing item from minutes: INFO
<ErichEickmeyer> #action OvenWerks to work on forking kubuntu-settings-desktop package and create ubuntustudio-plasma package.
<meetingology> ACTION: OvenWerks to work on forking kubuntu-settings-desktop package and create ubuntustudio-plasma package.
<ErichEickmeyer> Awesome. So, I think we've established our first alternate environment. Should we stick with Xfce by default for now?
<OvenWerks> We have time to decide that when we have a working plasma desktop...
<ErichEickmeyer> Cool. Let's roll forward with ubuntustudio-plasma and decide whether xfce or plasma will be default in 18.10 at a later time.
<OvenWerks> So yes default stays xfce, unless we vote something else 
<eylul> honestly considering timelines... even if we planned to switch defaults, 6 months really isn't a long time :)
<ErichEickmeyer> That's true. Maybe we make the Plasma alternate and consider changing default for 19.04?
<OvenWerks> right, but if we get to beta with either or being able to load... it would be a choice.
<ErichEickmeyer> Right. That's a choice we can put into the installer via radio button dialog, I think.
<eylul> *nods*
<ErichEickmeyer> The ISO will have to have a default, however. I think for size sake, Xfce is a safe default still.
<eylul> you know.... 
<eylul> and I am putting this out here, just as a long term idea because we definitely don't have the packaging-testing power at the moment but...
<eylul> we could possibly perhaps maybe have ISOs with both? so people can download what they want. *ducks the incoming objects from multiple directions*
<ErichEickmeyer> If we have the manpower...
<OvenWerks> eylul: how far do we go with that?
<ErichEickmeyer> I know Lubuntu did this for a while with LXQt, and they have a similar staffing situation to us.
<OvenWerks> how many iso should we keep?
<eylul> this could be a good idea if we had 2 DEs. probably a very bad idea for all 5 of them.
<OvenWerks> right.
<eylul> I wouldn't offer this if not for glowing review of plasma from OvenWerks. usually his and my user cases are very different so it makes me hopeful about it
<ErichEickmeyer> Well, let's look at it like this: The top two default desktops for multimedia creation are Xfce (probably because of Studio) and Plasma (KXStudio, Fedora Jam)
<OvenWerks> while I would suggest that budgie, cinnamon, cnome are not suited as defaults, there is not reason not to offer them as install time options.
<ErichEickmeyer> I can agree with that.
<OvenWerks> MATE, xfce and plasma are doable.
<ErichEickmeyer> So, then that begs the question about new desktops: Plasma for 18.10 and then add MATE for 19.04?
<OvenWerks> unless lxqt basically takes over the xfce world in the next few years... I don't know that it would be worth spending time on right now.
<eylul> I am just hoping maybe having a separate ISO would get people to try it out and test it beyond the regular testing process.
<eylul> ah
<ErichEickmeyer> eylul: That's exactly what Lubuntu did with Lubuntu-Next for LXQt, so I don't see why we can't do it.
<ErichEickmeyer> Especially since I'm working relatively closely with tsimonq2.
 * eylul nods at OvenWerks
<krytarik> Notice that they never actually *released* the LXQt until now though.
<eylul> ErichEickmeyer: this might be a good route IF we decide that something other than XFCE is the new default
<ErichEickmeyer> I didn't mean we'd do UbuntuStudio-Next. I mean we'd do UbuntuStudio-XFCE and UbuntuStudio-Plasma.
<OvenWerks> It would not be hard to have two iso if 32bit is gone.
<ErichEickmeyer> That's a good point, too!
<OvenWerks> the installer bit would have to be part of the desktop meta.
<OvenWerks> (it would be different for each iso)
<ErichEickmeyer> As long as we can get the metapackages sorted out, it should fall into place.
<ErichEickmeyer> BTW, related: until MyPaint gets upgraded, our ISOs are going to continue to fail to build.
<OvenWerks> I don't see anything upstream for that.
<ErichEickmeyer> I'll work with the release team on perhaps getting a git snapshot, which was suggested by jbicha.
 * OvenWerks is not watching their dev work closely
<ErichEickmeyer> Either that, or we'll have to remove MyPaint from default.
<OvenWerks> our graphics meta fails to load as well
<ErichEickmeyer> That's because of the GIMP-MyPaint discrepency.
<OvenWerks> right
<ErichEickmeyer> Anyhow...
<eylul> it does look like the code is updated at least. so the work is ongoing
<eylul> (sorry was checking their forums and github for any progress*
<ErichEickmeyer> #action Erich to work on GIMP-MyPaint conflict with release team.
<meetingology> ACTION: Erich to work on GIMP-MyPaint conflict with release team.
<ErichEickmeyer> So, did we reach the decision on adding Plasma as the first alternate desktop?
<ErichEickmeyer> I'm in favor.
<krytarik> +1
<SlidingHorn> +1
<eylul> +1
 * OvenWerks seconds
<SlidingHorn>  sd
<SlidingHorn> (sorry was wiping off my keyboard)
<OvenWerks> looks like a vote
<ErichEickmeyer> That looks like a majority if not unity.
<ErichEickmeyer> #agreed Adding KDE Plasma as first alternate desktop environment in 18.10
<ErichEickmeyer> Okay, with that, we'll drop the survey idea.
<ErichEickmeyer> Anyhow, let's move this along.
<ErichEickmeyer> #topic Wallpapers
<ErichEickmeyer> #subtopic Targeting PNG format vs JPEG for submissions
<ErichEickmeyer> OvenWerks: Can you fill us in on this one?
<OvenWerks> I can try...
<OvenWerks> because of the hurry at the end of last cycle, we ended up with a backdrop we were going to add that was JPG. and required changing two packages.
<OvenWerks> we should probably avoid this in the future by settling on a format to use
<ErichEickmeyer> Agreed. PNG seems like the logical solution.
<eylul> my main concern at least with this wallpaper was that the png file ended up being huge
<OvenWerks> it seems to me in the past PNG was specified for contest entries and defaults.
<eylul> the wallpapers from the contest seemed to be a mix, the defaults are created as vector. I am not against png as default. I am just not sure at which point
<OvenWerks> My main question is how do the two formats deal quality wise with sizing?
<eylul> what do you mean OvenWerks?
<ErichEickmeyer> Isn't PNG basically lossless compression?
<OvenWerks> everyone has different screen sizes,
<OvenWerks> resizing affects png too
<eylul> ErichEickmeyer: not sure it scales up when the original is not a vector art
<OvenWerks> a hw screen has an exact number of pixels.
<OvenWerks> So the backdrop is resized on the fly I would guess
<OvenWerks> this might mean a jpg would actually resize better.
<ErichEickmeyer> Well, then, what if we had both?
 * OvenWerks doesn't know how closely graphics is to audio in this respect.
<OvenWerks> the reason we want one to be default is that we only have to change one package to set default not two (or three)
<eylul> could we modify the script
<ErichEickmeyer> TBH, svg is the most scalable, but that's not common for wallpapers.
<eylul> so that we can specify the file type on one package?
<eylul> Also Erich we would still have to have started with a vector art to use that.
<OvenWerks> I don't know how plasma deals with this, but xfce needs the file name in a certian place
<eylul> yes auto-trace got a lot better, but not quite that good :)
<ErichEickmeyer> Plasma also needs the files in a certain place, but I had great luck with symbolic links for the wallpapers.
<OvenWerks> we do specify the type in one package... but we keep the image in another.
 * eylul is testing exact file sizes of png output again while talking.
<ErichEickmeyer> Xfce looks in /usr/share/backgrounds, plasma looks in /usr/share/wallpapers
<OvenWerks> link would fix that.
<OvenWerks> and plasma would handle a full path.
<OvenWerks> (same with xfce)
<ErichEickmeyer> Yep. All I did was 'ln -s /usr/share/backgrounds/ubuntustudio/* /usr/share/wallpapers/*
<OvenWerks> now if we could use wildcards image.* that would be fine, but I don't think so.
<eylul> well.. we now have time to test it out
<ErichEickmeyer> Yeah. Let's test this and report back next meeting?
<eylul> also.. speaking of testing we should probably test that the high res image (png or jpeg) is not bogging down a low end system.
<ErichEickmeyer> How low are you talking?
<OvenWerks> the path to image has to be in the -desktop-DE meta but the images should be in a package common to both.
<eylul> how low do we support I honestly have no idea if this would be an issue or not.
<OvenWerks> eylul: I don't think that is a problem, the image gets resized once on load?
<eylul> the image is over 5MB for each screen (6-7 for png) not sure if it is a problem or not. 
<eylul> ah
<ErichEickmeyer> Well, as I've said before, if you're running many of our apps you either have a higher-end system or have unworldly amounts of patience.
<eylul> :D
<OvenWerks> ErichEickmeyer: yes but...
<OvenWerks> screen size is not the same thing
<ErichEickmeyer> That's true.
<eylul> also the problem is that we are putting a very large image for even someone who has 1/4th area of the screen.
<OvenWerks> There are both lower power/memory systems than mine with higher rez screens and more powerful ones with lower rez..
<ErichEickmeyer> Yeah, and it has to render that every time the desktop is shown. That adds up to problematic quickly.
<eylul> exactly
<ErichEickmeyer> So, do we, say, go roughly 720 and scale up, or meet somewhere in the middle at 1080?
<eylul> Erich for context, I am on a 4K screen.
<ErichEickmeyer> I'm on a 1080.
<eylul> that's double of a 1080p on each dimension
<OvenWerks> 1920x1080?
<eylul> :D
<ErichEickmeyer> My former system was 1280x800.
<OvenWerks> I think that was what we were looking for last time
<ErichEickmeyer> Before that I had a system at 1366x768.
<OvenWerks> mine are 1600x900
<eylul> *nods* a lot of newer laptops are 1920 or HiDPI through. it is a lot more common than it was 2-3 years ago. :)
<ErichEickmeyer> Then, set 1080 as a target?
<OvenWerks> gotta compete with apple...
<OvenWerks> I think that is still valid
<ErichEickmeyer> But, this still has the question of whether PNG or JPG. Would the two of you be able to test and report back by next meeting?
<eylul> we can go with png. it is not a problem.
<eylul> I just need to know how much MB size I can go with before we start bogging down systems badly.
<eylul> and I am not sure how to check that.
<eylul> it might be that we don't need to worry and that a few MB sized wallpaper is perfectly fine
<ErichEickmeyer> Most low-end systems handle PNG fairly gracefully, in my experience.
<eylul> which size is the question here. ;)
<ErichEickmeyer> Okay, so we'll go with PNG, and size TBD?
<eylul> which file size. yes
<eylul> as in if we have a maximum or not
<OvenWerks> eylul: in a 20inch screen is there that much noticable difference from 1920x1020 and 4k?
<eylul> I'll look for background but on browser
<eylul> I definitely notice stuff that is low rez
<ErichEickmeyer> On my 42-inch 1080 screen at work, I can definitely see pixelation, but that makes sense.
<eylul> *nods*
<OvenWerks> 42 inch is too big for my desk...
 * OvenWerks can't land f18s on it either...
<ErichEickmeyer> Yeah, but I make videos for a living, so having something native is good.
<ErichEickmeyer> So, should we table this for more testing?
<eylul> yeah
 * eylul wishes had space for a 42" screen.
<OvenWerks> it would be possible to have default and optional.
<ErichEickmeyer> Okay. eylul and OvenWerks to do testing?
<OvenWerks> I can do a bit, but my screens are small and low res
<eylul> *nods* I'll check what things look like on my screen if they are low rez. I think what I need is someone to make sure the current ones I did post are not causing overhead
<eylul> too badly when used.
<ErichEickmeyer> OvenWerks can check higher on low, and eylul can check lower on high.
<ErichEickmeyer> Perfect comparison.
<eylul> the ones I did link were high resolution. :)
<OvenWerks> of course 8k is "future proof" for a bit longer :)
<eylul> so if they don't cause problems then we don't have a problem.
<eylul> is there 8K screens out there outside of large displays?
<eylul> ;)
<ErichEickmeyer> #action eylul and OvenWerks to test various wallpaper resolutions and report back.
<meetingology> ACTION: eylul and OvenWerks to test various wallpaper resolutions and report back.
<ErichEickmeyer> #agreed Using PNG as default format for wallpapers
<ErichEickmeyer> We need to move this along.
<ErichEickmeyer> #topic Welcome App & Software Boutique
<ErichEickmeyer> I'm just going to give a brief status update on this one.
<ErichEickmeyer> I'm working with tsimonq2 on forking ubuntu-mate-welcome since we can collaborate. He's doing it for Lubuntu, I'm doing it for Studio. It's up to Wimpress, but I have the feeling he could give us tips along the way if needed.
<ErichEickmeyer> So, that's part of the flavor collaboration we've got going on.
<OvenWerks> budgie uses it too.
<eylul> \o/
<ErichEickmeyer> Yep, and bashfulrobot is probably a good resource as well.
<ErichEickmeyer> So, with that, since this is a project I'm focusing on, I'll take this one on.
<OvenWerks> I notice it is a snap package and that the mounted patitions remain after the app is closed.
<ErichEickmeyer> #action ErichEickmeyer to work with tsimonq on ubuntustudio-welcome and ubuntustudio-software-boutique in collaboration with Lubuntu, with Budgie (bashfulrobot) and MATE (Wimpress) as possible additional resources.
<meetingology> ACTION: ErichEickmeyer to work with tsimonq on ubuntustudio-welcome and ubuntustudio-software-boutique in collaboration with Lubuntu, with Budgie (bashfulrobot) and MATE (Wimpress) as possible additional resources.
<ErichEickmeyer> OvenWerks: I'll ask Wimpress about that. Chances are he'll see this.
<eylul> ErichEickmeyer: question, would having 2DEs duplicate your work or one package will be usable for both plasma and XFCE?
<ErichEickmeyer> One package would be usable for both.
<eylul> nice :)
<OvenWerks> no problem, snap may do some of this at boot too for  all I know.
<OvenWerks> Ya, that would work for as many as we ever have.
<ErichEickmeyer> It's pretty desktop-independent.
<ErichEickmeyer> Anyhow... we're running a bit overtime, so...
<ErichEickmeyer> #topic Next Meeting
<ErichEickmeyer> As you saw from the email, I'm not available next week. We can take the week off or I can write-up an agenda and one of you runs the meeing. Thoughts?
<OvenWerks> just a general caution. check any package before uploading to make sure it has not changed from bzr to git.
<OvenWerks> A week off would not hurt. I have stuff to do.
<ErichEickmeyer> OvenWerks: Absolutely. I think it's more of a base than a fork. :)
<OvenWerks> I am available on the 26 though
<SlidingHorn> I would actually be gone next weekend as well, most likely
<ErichEickmeyer> I should be available on the 26th as well. Memorial day weekend, and my family will be in Idaho.
<ErichEickmeyer> Okay. eylul, thoughts?
<eylul> I wouldn't mind a break.
<ErichEickmeyer> Cool.
<ErichEickmeyer> #agreed Next meeting will be May 26th
<ErichEickmeyer> Alright. That's all I've got. Any additional items?
<eylul> I was going to ask if Slidinghorn or anyone else wants to co-manage the mastodon account.
<eylul> so that we can be more active there. Just asking because I need to share the account info with you. 
<eylul> if that is the case
<SlidingHorn> eylul: Sure
<ErichEickmeyer> That reminds me, I have yet to make the Telegram group.
<ErichEickmeyer> #topic Additional Items
<ErichEickmeyer> #action SlidingHorn to help eylul with Mastodon account.
<meetingology> ACTION: SlidingHorn to help eylul with Mastodon account.
<ErichEickmeyer> #action ErichEickmeyer will continue to investigate Telegram and Telegram-IRC bridge.
<meetingology> ACTION: ErichEickmeyer will continue to investigate Telegram and Telegram-IRC bridge.
<ErichEickmeyer> Anything else?
<eylul> not from me.
<captain-tux_> No
<OvenWerks> -controls has not really moved porting to git today.
<ErichEickmeyer> That's okay. Still working on that?
<OvenWerks> I have the fun of getting it on to launchpad.
<ErichEickmeyer> Joy. /s
<ErichEickmeyer> Unless you weren't being sarcastic with the "fun"
<ErichEickmeyer> #action OvenWerks to continue to get ubuntustudio-controls migrated to git.
<meetingology> ACTION: OvenWerks to continue to get ubuntustudio-controls migrated to git.
<OvenWerks> it was a one linner to get it to git on my system.
<ErichEickmeyer> Wow! That's.. incredible!
<OvenWerks> some of the links in the instructions are bad though :P
<ErichEickmeyer> Hmmm.... Documentation. :/
<ErichEickmeyer> Anyhow, shall we adjourn or do we have any other items to discuss?
<OvenWerks> I guess I can bug it.
<OvenWerks> was that a move?
<ErichEickmeyer> I move to adjourn. Second?
<OvenWerks> o/
<ErichEickmeyer> Okay. Meeting adjourned.
<ErichEickmeyer> #endmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting ended Sat May 12 20:23:58 2018 UTC.  
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntustudio-devel/2018/ubuntustudio-devel.2018-05-12-19.00.moin.txt
<ErichEickmeyer> Oh man! NO MORE MANUAL NOTES!!! :D :D \o/
<captain-tux_> Thanks.
<captain-tux_> Well, it's kinda manual, still. :P
<ErichEickmeyer> Yeah, I see the #agreed items didn't get in there.
<ErichEickmeyer> Off to spend a little longer with my family before heading to work. I'll ge the notes emailed and post the news as soon as I can.
<ErichEickmeyer> Bye all! o/
<krytarik> o/
<captain-tux_> See you around.
<eylul> bye :)
<SlidingHorn> OvenWerks: when you're doing your testing, are you just doing all of this in a VM?
<OvenWerks> I only test hw
<OvenWerks> I have three working partitions, 16.04.4, 18.04 and 18.10
<OvenWerks> My home is on yet another...
<OvenWerks> (or part of it is) I like ~\.config etc. to stay with the working partition.
<captain-tux_> OvenWerks, what are you usually doing to your installation to test the Studio stuff? Just installing lowlatency kernel and the studio-meta repository? I'd like to have a look at it, since your description of KDE doesn't match up what I remember of it. :P
<OvenWerks> captain-tux_: It did not match what I remembered either :)
<OvenWerks> I had installed kde on my son's computer some years ago and did not like it.
<OvenWerks> for the most part I have installed ubuntustudio-menu and at least one of the metas.
<OvenWerks> I have not worried about the kernel as there is not a lot of difference.
<OvenWerks> The default menu is close enough to whisker as can be, (application launcher) but I normally change that to the application menu as my preference. I have moved the panel to the top as a preference, but was working with it on the bottom for a while with no problems as well.
<OvenWerks> I also change away from whisker to the xfce application menu when using xfce BTW.
<OvenWerks> captain-tux_: if you can be specific as to what you remember as being different from my report... 
<OvenWerks> let us know. This is not a one man show by any means.
<captain-tux_> OvenWerks, it's been a while since I've used KDE, we have it running on a VM at work, but I don't usually do much with that. I mainly remember it as being bloated interface-wise and the opposite of consistent (as you described with the gnome apps being nicely integrated), just felt too cluttered and not really defined. This is basically only an UI/UX thing that I remember, which left me scarred since those days.
<captain-tux_> So I have extreme expectation bias, but I'm willing and dare I say also a little bit curious to try it out nowadays.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2018-05-13
<ErichEickmeyer> OvenWerks: Is there any chance that, for the time being, you wouldn't mind removing MyPaint from the -graphics metapackage to get our dailys rolling again?
<OvenWerks> ErichEickmeyer: So far as I know we fix the seeds and the metas are creted from there.
<OvenWerks> But I don't know the process.
<OvenWerks> (or have the upload rights.
<OvenWerks> release rights?
<OvenWerks> I can change the seeds though
<OvenWerks> ErichEickmeyer: seeds are changed
<OvenWerks> ubuntustudio-meta shows unreleased since trusty as well as some changes that are unrealeased
<OvenWerks> this makes me wonder if it is truely used.
<kashem> hi?
<kashem> how do i get source code of ubuntu studio-18?
<SlidingHorn> I think I finally figured out how I was breaking XFCE - Now to fix it without having to delete everything...I would change my .Xresources to make my urxvt pretty, and the font would be tiny...to fix it, I'd run xrandr --dpi $size  and that's what screws me
<kashem> is it possible to know if anyone pinging me?plz...Help
<kashem> is it possible to know if anyone pinging me?plz...Help
<OvenWerks> is it possible to stay on line?
<SlidingHorn> OvenWerks: I was going to try to find a polite way to inform them that search engines exist...
<OvenWerks> "in your browser type: stuff"
<OvenWerks> SlidingHorn: "ping" is ambiguous in irc also. And, I think irc uses a ping to check if you are still online...
<SlidingHorn> OvenWerks: lolol
<OvenWerks> I was temped to say irc is pinging you...
<ErichEickmeyer> OvenWerks: Thanks for changing the seeds. I'll let jbicha know, he has upload.
<OvenWerks> k
<ErichEickmeyer> Annnnd done.
<OvenWerks> so we have a respin?
<ErichEickmeyer> That'll happen automatically sometime in the next 24 hours.
<OvenWerks> ErichEickmeyer: by the way, xfce only resizes the image it uses as backdrop once at load time. There is a noticable delay when I change the image but not when changing desktops etc.
<ErichEickmeyer> OvenWerks: So, is this a bug or just an inefficincy in code?
<OvenWerks> it is in regaurd to our question from the meeting about large images for backdrop.
<OvenWerks> basically a large image over a smaller one is a non-issue as it only gets loaded at session start
<ErichEickmeyer> Oh, okay. So, basically, large images don't scale well in Xfce as far as performance. Did you check in Plasma as well?
<ErichEickmeyer> Oh, okay. So, basically, we could go with 1080 images?
<OvenWerks> I don't see why not.
<ErichEickmeyer> Cool. We'll see what eylul reports back.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2019-05-06
<M_aD> Can we include exfat-fuse and exfat-utils in the next release? I have a Sony audio player but i couldn't use the device and the sd-card at first. After installing exfat-fuse and it's dependency exfat-utils, they auto mounted and i was able to put files on it. Would be great if we have it working ootb.
<Eickmeyer> M_aD: Good question. I also want to look into including OBS. afaik not even stock Ubuntu carries exfat.
 * Eickmeyer goes asking around.
<M_aD> since both are in the repos i don't see a issue. Or don't we have the freedom to add/remove what we want?
 * M_aD will be back later
<Eickmeyer> M_aD: Here's the answer I got, and it appears to be an ongoing discussion. https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/exfat-utils/+bug/1649537
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1649537 in fuse-exfat (Ubuntu) "[MIR] exfat-utils and fuse-exfat" [Undecided,Won't fix]
<Eickmeyer> Basically, it's not a good idea for licensing/patent reasons, but that's the part of the discussion that is ongoing.
<M_aD> Eickmeyer: i just read through it, thanks and understood :)
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: Got that crash, not sure what happened. Controls won't start. Not sure if this is a bug, or what's going on here.
<Eickmeyer> https://paste.ubuntu.com/p/3jnjvQRtz4/
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: Nevermind, looks like I was missing python3-jack-client. Installed, will add to deps.
<Eickmeyer> Added and pushed.
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: I like the indicator, but in materia it's hard to read as it is grayed-out as if it were a button or something.
<OvenWerks> I think that is more text size?
<Eickmeyer> Perhaps, that might help.
<Eickmeyer> And, uh, oops, looks like I omitted a comma.
<Eickmeyer> I'll screenshot it.
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: https://imgur.com/a/7PPdK5P
<Eickmeyer> The text looks like that when it's running too.
<OvenWerks> Ya, the text stays the same.
 * OvenWerks needs to find a LED indicator.
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: leaving that aside how are other things?
<Eickmeyer> Other than that, it works great. No issues here.
<Eickmeyer> Well, once I added the python3-jack-client package, that is. :P
<OvenWerks> I need to get some more things done so I can commit my current work and then rebase over master.
<Eickmeyer> Ok
<OvenWerks> I do not know why I didn't have to, I must already be using it elsewhere
<Eickmeyer> Yeah. Well, nobody else should be running into that. Added as a dep.
<OvenWerks> Thank you.
<Eickmeyer> Hey, that's why I'm here, right? ;)
<OvenWerks> Gotta have someone to test
<Eickmeyer> Yep. I can't code, but I can test and package.
 * OvenWerks is reading the school long range facilities Plan 2018 - 2027
<OvenWerks> lots of "should" and "could"
<Eickmeyer> Yikes. If that's anything like stuff here in the states, then I can only imagine the thickness of that plan.
<OvenWerks> Im on page 36 of 52
<Eickmeyer> Here, 52 pages would just be the summary.
<OvenWerks> my wife in the mean time is taking an online "wound management" course
<Eickmeyer> Heh, interesting.
<OvenWerks> she is a practicing nurse, this is an upgrade/scope of practice increase.
<Eickmeyer> Oh, good for her!
<OvenWerks> And generally good to know stuff anyway.
<Eickmeyer> Indeed.
 * OvenWerks gets to see the gory pics as well :P
<OvenWerks> one of our schools is running at 179% cap...
<Eickmeyer> YIKES! That's not good. The new high school that was built in my parents' area, to replace the one I went to, was already at 110% cap when it opened. Failure to forecast is a conastant in government.
<OvenWerks> Oh it's not really, there are two schools on the same property and they share classrooms (el and mid) so the overall is under 100%
<OvenWerks> The school my son is going to (middle school) went from 7-9 to 6-9 and the local el went from k-6 to k-5 for the same reason.
<OvenWerks> The midlle/high schools show lower percentages but I am thinking that they are also including "special use" class rooms like cooking, wood work and metal work in those numbers.
<OvenWerks> Those rooms may not be able to have 90% usage and yet still need to be there.
<Eickmeyer> I guess I should restate then. Failure to forecast is a constant in Washington State's government.
<OvenWerks> It is a problem here too. It is also a matter of making the best use of facilities
<OvenWerks> whatever happens, all secondary schools are a bus ride away so my yomger son will have to learn bussing the year after next.
<OvenWerks> I think we have to pay for it too :P
<Eickmeyer> Yeah. The schools where I live have free bus service, and even though it's a short drive, I have my son take the bus to school every morning. I get him in the afternoon.
<Eickmeyer> I find it funny. When I go into #ubuntu-release or #ubuntu-devel, even if there's an active conversation, if I ask for a MOTU to look at lsp-plugins they all scatter.
<OvenWerks> :)
<Eickmeyer> I can see them all looking at each other, putting their fingers on their noses, saying, "Nose goes!"
<OvenWerks> A short statement to that effect would be "polite"
<Eickmeyer> Agreed.
<Eickmeyer> The room just goes completely quiet and stays like that for hours after I do that.
<Eickmeyer> "Erich Eickmeyer: Thread Killer"
<OvenWerks> so that means yes we know it needs to be done, but none of us wants to take it on.
<Eickmeyer> Exxxactly.
<Eickmeyer> It's not even a complicated package. Yet, I think people are in shell shock after Carla, which was a gigantic bit of work.
<Eickmeyer> I feel like I'm doing pretty good when I package something and lintian has nothing to say about it.
<OvenWerks> --pedantic?
<Eickmeyer> Even pedantic has nothing to say!
<OvenWerks> Is it in debian?
<Eickmeyer> Nope.
<OvenWerks> Oh, no MM maintaner there
<Eickmeyer> It has also been brought to my attention that MuseScore is out of date. Yet, for some reason, I still get MM emails about people doing stuff with MuseScore 2 when 3 has been out for over a year.
<Eickmeyer> Oh, nm, not over a year. January, as I look at github.
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: I think a policy of keeping sw that is ahead of debian/ubuntu in our back port PPA even the same day as release might make sense.
<OvenWerks> ubuntu has a debian first attitude
<OvenWerks> debian is slow... adding the Studio backports as part of install may make sense.
<Eickmeyer> Yeah. I'm looking at it and Thorsten Glaser is the maintainer for MuseScore, he's active.
<Eickmeyer> Looks like he has a package for MuseScore 3 in experimental.
<OvenWerks> Or adding the add ppa button to -controls as well as installer.
<Eickmeyer> Let's keep the ppa button in installer since it's the... installer. 
<OvenWerks> Anyway, I am taking Yf and son out so have to get ready.
<Eickmeyer> Okay, have fun. o/
#ubuntustudio-devel 2019-05-08
<studiobot> <Eickmeyer> (New chat photo, 640x640) https://i.imgur.com/jYVJj6U.jpg
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: dumb question time... If I start -controls for the first time (no rc file) and jack is already running by some means... what should -controls do?
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: Without any interaction?
<OvenWerks> The default in the case of a config save is to save the default jack state which is stopped.
<OvenWerks> This will also stop jack (probably wrong)
<Eickmeyer> If it detects Jack is running, then it should make the RC keep that seting.
<Eickmeyer> That's just my opinion.
<OvenWerks> It would not be hard to set jack to True. but should it also say something about having started jack some other way?
<Eickmeyer> Perhaps. At least as a warning that a non-default setup was detected?
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: if someone started jack by commandline or qjackctl there is probably not a problem... cadence that is a problem
<OvenWerks> cadence is blacklisted so maybe not a problem.
<Eickmeyer> Yeah, cadence is also a conflict in the package.
 * OvenWerks just tried rm .config/autojackrc for the first time :)
<Eickmeyer> Nice. Debugging for first-use, I take it.
<OvenWerks> Ya, I actually think it didn't check what I want to check... but realize what I wanted to check doesn't matter
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: now if the user has used -controls at least once and turned jack off and the next startup of -controls finds jack running... same thing?
 * OvenWerks thinks so
<OvenWerks> I think that because the jack indicator shows jack is running, the saved value should be set that way.
<Eickmeyer[m]> I agree. I think if someone makes a change outside of Ubuntu Studio, it should warn them.
<Eickmeyer[m]> Rather, outside of -controls
 * Eickmeyer had ot jump over to Matrix for a screenshot of the shenanigans in #ubuntustudio
<OvenWerks> warning may be added later
<OvenWerks>  If the person starts -controls and finds jack is running, they can puzzle over how that may have happened...
<OvenWerks> :)
<Eickmeyer[m]> Right. We want this to be user-friendly, which means making sure they understand what their system is doing.
<Eickmeyer[m]> M_aD, OvenWerks : RE: that reddit post: I did a little bit of trimming of an old, outdated, and horribly written wiki article. And by a little trimming, I mean practically replaced the whole thing: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuStudioPreparation
 * OvenWerks has built a new -controls for people to break if possible.
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: please take a look at the new jack status indicator.
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: updating now
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: Looks like it's built but not published. I'll be waiting for paint to dry.
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: We have a problem. https://paste.ubuntu.com/p/5wcRw2Dg9d/
<OvenWerks> which version OS?
<Eickmeyer> 19.04
<OvenWerks> Ok
<OvenWerks> 18.04 here.
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: So, it won't start unless Jack is already running.
<OvenWerks> Can you stop jack after it is started?
<Eickmeyer> I could start Jack from qjackctl, and then start it. After that, I could stop it and start it.
<Eickmeyer> However, if I stopped it, closed it, and tried reopening it, it wouldn't reopen.
<OvenWerks> Ok, I don't think I have tried that :)
<Eickmeyer> Only workaround was to start Jack manually and then opening it.
<OvenWerks> nope, I need to fix it
<Eickmeyer> Okay.
<Eickmeyer> I have some errands to run. I should be back in a couple hours.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2019-05-09
<Eickmeyer[m]> m_ad, OvenWerks : message from tsimonq2 about a "flavor meeting". https://paste.ubuntu.com/p/QYQjjsfBh4/
<m_ad[m]> Thanks, will have a look
 * OvenWerks sees some difficulties with controls as it sits...
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: Such as? (btw, just updated http://ubuntustudio.org/tour/audio/).
<OvenWerks> having more than one PA-jack bridge, dealing with two device with the same name
<Eickmeyer> Yeah, that's problematic. Should only have one PA-Jack bridge. Is there any way to make two devices with the same name renamed *-1 and *-2? or whatever numbering scheme?
<Eickmeyer> BTW, got the latest controls. Works great, except the indicator could use being spaced from the edge of the window a little. Wouldn't hurt if it were centered and, therefore, obvious.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2019-05-10
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: it seems that changing import dbus.glib to from dbus.mainloop.glib import DBusGMainLoop works fine in 18.04. Do we need to test it in anything older?
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: No. 16.04 is EOL.
<OvenWerks> I am assuming I need to do this to autojack as well...
<Eickmeyer> If that's what the API requires, then yeah.
<OvenWerks> Hmm, maybe not, it seems to be that way already
<OvenWerks> I will leave it as is.
<Eickmeyer> Sweet.
<Eickmeyer> Woah. 4 Chroot problems in a row. That's unusual.
 * Eickmeyer blames Launchpad
<OvenWerks> it is more likely that I did a commit in the middle of the build because I didn't know it was running.
<OvenWerks> But now it doesn't want to build :)
<Eickmeyer> Doubtful, but I just manually requested a build.
<Eickmeyer> Looks like it's going swimmingly now.
<OvenWerks> if the build tries to copy the src into the chroot while it is being updated it would fail
<Eickmeyer> Maybe that is what happened then. Just bad timing. Â¯\_(ã)_/Â¯
<OvenWerks> Ya, I had forgotten to update the changelog...
<OvenWerks> so two commits instead of one.
<Eickmeyer> Meh, happens.
<OvenWerks> Adding two spin boxes for number of pulse-jack bridges (input and output) this means the user can have 0 or more pulse inputs and 0 or more pulse outputs.
<OvenWerks> Given that, should we retain the pulse bridge check box as well?
<OvenWerks> Obviously 0 in both boxes is the same as off
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: ^
<Eickmeyer> Yes. There are reasons to disable Pulse if Jack is running, the biggest of which is to lower the latency (buffer).
<OvenWerks> 0 bridges in both boxes already does that
<Eickmeyer> Oh! Multiple bridges? I'm having trouble understanding why we'd need multiple.
<OvenWerks> pulse with the dummy backend has no effect on either jack latency or cpu use, so it runs all the time. This also allows us not to mess with the pulse configuration.
<OvenWerks> need for more than one bridge? simple, think about a podcast where one of the speakers/guests is on skype. Now we want to play back something from a browser but want to mix it in a jack app
<OvenWerks> In such a case one input bridge and two output bridges would be needed
<OvenWerks> It would also allow someone to choose an output device from inside pulse where jack has more than one
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: if you run the latest -controls from CL should not longer give the dbus error.
<OvenWerks> Published 35 min ago now :)
<Eickmeyer> Cool. 
<Eickmeyer> RE: Pulse bridge: Oh! Yeah, that makes sense!
<OvenWerks> I could just use one number for bridges (input = output) but I think it is not worth the performance hit.
<Eickmeyer> I would like the ability to, with the dummy driver, specify the number of in/outs. That becomes extremely handy when doing setups without the physical hardware available, i.e. having Ardour or Carla all set and ready to go/saved with all connections, then adding the physical hardware later.
<Eickmeyer> Especially handy for portable setups.
 * OvenWerks adds it to his list
<OvenWerks> It may be that some boxes should not even be visible in some modes. For example, the USB master box should not be visible in FW mode. But I have not been able (so far) to hide boxes.
<Eickmeyer> I agree with that. It's pretty clear that USB and Firewire don't mix. (no pun intended).
<OvenWerks> As master no, but bridged yes.
<OvenWerks> Can't bridge fw of course, unless it is using the alsa driver
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: Confirmed, no more dbus errors.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2019-05-11
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: I should have asked, does it also (after some time say "autojack is running
<OvenWerks> "?
<OvenWerks> (that would tell us controls has gotten a dbus message from autojack)
<Eickmeyer[m]> I didnât notice that.
<Eickmeyer[m]> I can check tomorrow.
<OvenWerks> I actually am surprised you answered tonight :)
<OvenWerks> we just finished celebrating the "old fart's" Birthday.
<Eickmeyer[m]> I got the ping on my iPad, where I was reading an article.
<OvenWerks> GN
<Eickmeyer[m]> GN!
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: Found a nasty bug, but basically it comes down to people installing ubuntustudio-gnome-branding on a deault Xfce install, which is pulling in all of GNOME and a few other things because people aren't reading that it's for the default Ubuntu install only. Removing it from -installer and conflicting ubuntustudio-gnome-branding with the ubuntustudio-look metapackage.
<OvenWerks> does it have to depend on Gnome?
<OvenWerks> Is it anything more than config files?
<OvenWerks> If it doesn't break the package to remove the gnome depends, I would do that
<Eickmeyer> In order to brand it with the gray background in gdm, it pulls in gnome-session. which pulls in the gnome dependencies.
<Eickmeyer> But, since it's not part of -look but only an add-on, I'm making it unavailable to the default Xfce install, which makes sense.
<OvenWerks> I will have to look at the package, to be honest I have had no interest in it because I find g-session unsuitable for my style of computing.
<OvenWerks> Or perhaps because I suffer from Dyslexia... or something.
<OvenWerks>  ;)
<Eickmeyer> Hehehe
<OvenWerks> However, from what you have said, I do not see how it is more than just config files that without gnome would just sit and do nothing.
<Eickmeyer> Unfortunately, GDM is taking over and changing the default to Gnome, causing people to get confused when they restart their computers.
<Eickmeyer> Check all three questions by Juan: https://askubuntu.com/questions/tagged/ubuntu-studio
<OvenWerks> but do you have to add GDM to make it work?
<Eickmeyer> No, gnome-session adds gdm as a dependency.
<OvenWerks> right, that makes sense
<Eickmeyer> Or, gnome-session adds gnome adds gdm.
<OvenWerks> right, but for you to set the gdm backdrop to something, you only need to add a config file in some directory or is that not so?
<OvenWerks> In other words does gdm have to be installed for the configuration to be sitting in the system?
<OvenWerks> for example, for years the menu config file for both gnome and kde were sitting there even in a stock xfce install (don't know why)
<OvenWerks> but they did nothing except take up (very little) space
<Eickmeyer> Sadly, not anymore. It's all CSS now.
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: on the other hand, we could change installer to not show packages that are not relevant
<Eickmeyer> But, it's an "update-alternatives" to change from the default Ubuntu purple to gray.
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: That's a good idea. Can installer ignore packages that would break or conflict?
<OvenWerks> I tought ubuntu was orange... guess they changed it
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: only if we make it that way
<Eickmeyer> Okay. I removed it from installer for now, if we can make it ignore conflict or break, then that would serve the purpose.
<OvenWerks> For that one case (and other like plasma) we should be able to look for files in /usr/share/xsessions/
<OvenWerks> right at the top of the script we set default_packages
<OvenWerks> We could set it by making smaller strings and concatonating them
<OvenWerks> strings could be added or not with simple if statements.
<Eickmeyer> So "if exists /usr/share/xsessions/ubuntu.desktop | /usr/share/xsessions/gnome.desktop then; show option ubuntustudio-gnome-branding" or cleaner code than I know how to wrote?
<Eickmeyer> *write
<OvenWerks> Ya something like that
<OvenWerks> I have not really looked at it.
<Eickmeyer> Okay. 
<OvenWerks> I would have to look up the tcl way of globbing :)
<OvenWerks> (it would be the same for python or perl BTW)
<Eickmeyer> Right. 
<OvenWerks> I need to at least finish the pulse bridge part of controls I am working on before I look at it.
<Eickmeyer> No worries.
<tsimonq2> Eickmeyer: Need anything sponsored, while I'm patch piloting?
<Eickmeyer> tsimonq2: I was working with vorlon on this, but we seem to have stalled as it installs a single library directly into /usr/lib: https://launchpad.net/lsp-plugins
<Eickmeyer> I don't know what his rationalle is on that, considering it's not the only thing that installs a library there.
<Eickmeyer> He just really didn't like it.
<tsimonq2> Eickmeyer: You can override that.
<tsimonq2> sec
<Eickmeyer> k
<OvenWerks> what kind of plugin are they? lv1, lv2 lxvst?
 * OvenWerks is just wondering why they are not in /usr/lib/lv2
<OvenWerks> maybe the dsp is separate from multiple wrappers
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: RE: LV1, LV2, LXVST? Yes.
<Eickmeyer> It's all.
<Eickmeyer> But they're also standalone plugins that can be run directly from the command line and/or desktop.
<OvenWerks> That is based on the build/dev kit it uses.
<OvenWerks> dev once deploy x4
<OvenWerks> (it is probably also able to put out vst/macvst too
<Eickmeyer> Not a bad way to do it, really.
<Eickmeyer> It can also put out vst/winvst.
<OvenWerks> juce or pugl
<Eickmeyer> That I couldn't tell you.
<Eickmeyer> I didn't see juce as sa dep..
<OvenWerks> I would guess the second then :)
<OvenWerks> there may be others too
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: Looks like it's completely libgl and cairo. No sign of using anybody else's toolkit. No static linked libraries. Completely self-made.
<OvenWerks> Could be
<Eickmeyer> Either way, they did an excellent job.
 * OvenWerks would like to see hexter as an lv2, I hear it sounds slightly different than dexed
<Eickmeyer> I mean, how many times do you see a 32-band parametric EQ?
<OvenWerks> not many 3rd octave eq at all
<OvenWerks> Though not sure why I would need 32 channels in any case. 10 already seems like overkill
 * OvenWerks needs to note I do have the Harrison plugin set which includes a "Drawable" eq.
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: Heh, we have finally maxed-out the autobuilds repo. I just asked the Launchpad team if we could get a space bump.
<OvenWerks> Are we keeping old versions of things we can delete?
<Eickmeyer> Yeah, I just deleted some old Trusty stuff.
<Eickmeyer> Just deleted anything pre-bionic.
<Eickmeyer> Annnnd we're still beyond limit.
<OvenWerks> remove any that are newer version available?
<OvenWerks> remove any that are dups with backports?
<Eickmeyer> It could be that we just need a bump. 
<Eickmeyer> Usually the launchpad folks are more than happy to oblige. tsimonq2 had done it before with lubuntu.
<Eickmeyer> On another note, I accidentally corrupted the git repo for -look, so I'm working on restoring it now.
<Eickmeyer> No idea how I did it, but may have lost the commit history.
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: ^
<OvenWerks> Umm it's gone.
<Eickmeyer> I'm reuploading it now.
 * Eickmeyer thinks we should look at backing everything up to github.
<OvenWerks> If you have the git repo on your machine it should have the master at least
<OvenWerks> with all the history
<Eickmeyer> I have every branch. We're good.
<OvenWerks> but it may not have the branches
<OvenWerks> Ah ok
<Eickmeyer> Just the history somehow got corrupted and wouldn't let me reupload, so I had to rebuild it.
<Eickmeyer> I was able to switch between branches, just not push.
<Eickmeyer> Only action I could take was to copy the master to a new local repo, branch it and add each branch back.
<OvenWerks> git <something> --hard sounds right
<Eickmeyer> We'll still have everything, just not the commit history.
<OvenWerks> you should have the commit histroy in whatever you [push
<Eickmeyer> Yes, but that's what got corrupted both on LP and locally.
<OvenWerks> my last version of look is bzr
<OvenWerks> Do you want me to try cloning it and back the commit off?
<OvenWerks>  (though I am not sure how to do that with no log)
<OvenWerks> does git log work for you?
<Eickmeyer> I think what I did will be enough. We still have the changelog for most of everything.
<Eickmeyer> Git Log does work, so I might find a way to at least merge the logs since what I've got (and am uploading) is a new repo for all intents and purposes.
<OvenWerks> so can you do a git reset to the last good commit?
<Eickmeyer> Tried that, it failed.
<Eickmeyer> Okay, it's up. I might be able to do a git push --force now.
<OvenWerks> maybe not if everything is back and it seems to be.
<Eickmeyer> Okay, it seems to be working.
<Eickmeyer> Before it wasn't even letting me push at all.
<Eickmeyer> Nope, it failed.
<Eickmeyer> Oh, spoke too soon. 
<Eickmeyer> Not failing. I was looking at the wrong fail.
<OvenWerks> Here is a ya it works but why? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cEfhDqMup2Y
<Eickmeyer> Yeah, what would you do with something like that?
<Eickmeyer> Why not direct induction like most electric motors? There's no way that's more efficient.
<OvenWerks> It is an electric motor.... with a lot of extra vibration... so why?
<Eickmeyer> Exactly. Seems to defeat the purpose.
<Eickmeyer> Cool concept, poor application.
<OvenWerks> One of the things people have been trying to get rid of in recip engines forever is vibration...
<Eickmeyer> Ugh, re-uploading our largest git repo (-look) is like watching paint dry. My upload is only ~100Kbps.
 * Eickmeyer blames Comcast
<OvenWerks> That may be why it got broken in the first place.
<Eickmeyer> Very possible.
<Eickmeyer> Thankfully everything locally was still good, or so it seems.
<Eickmeyer> Looks like things are getting back to normal. Fixing the backports now.
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: Everything is back to normal now.
<OvenWerks> yup
#ubuntustudio-devel 2020-05-04
<studiobot> <teward001> Eickmeyer: what package did you need me to look at again?
<studiobot> <Eickmeyer> @teward001 [Eickmeyer: what package did you need me to look at again?], https://code.launchpad.net/~ubuntustudio-dev/materia-kde/+git/materia-kde
 * OvenWerks lost power for a few minutes
<OvenWerks> So no back scroll
<Eickmeyer> Oh, there wasn't much.
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: https://irclogs.ubuntu.com/latest/%23ubuntustudio.html
<Eickmeyer> That hasn't caught-up yet/.
<Eickmeyer> Probably in another 25 minutes it'll show.
<OvenWerks> Ya seems to catch up on the hour or so.
<OvenWerks> I was more explaining why I vanished from the #ubuntustudio
<Eickmeyer> Yeah, I saw the ping timeout. I knew something was up, and I usually assume it's ISP-related.
<Eickmeyer> Not far from the truth.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2020-05-05
<OvenWerks> Ok, that was frustrating. In plasma, what do I set so that when I plug a PTP/MTP device in it shows up in the file manager?
<OvenWerks> I can go to settings and set up all kinds of things about my camera. Removable deviced should be mounted... but while I can put the sd card into a reader and see it... it doesn't see the camera when I plug it in.
<OvenWerks> Considering all the trouble Kubuntu goes to to be artist friendly and all the stuff it has for detecting my camera (it can even see it's serial number) I am surprised it is not more obvious
 * OvenWerks son needed pictures transfered to the computer for homework.
<OvenWerks> Looks like I can teather it easy enough though
<OvenWerks> Actually I don't want automount so much as autodetect.
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: Strange, I've never had an issue. Perhaps try a card reader?
<OvenWerks> Ya the card reader works... but with thunar the camera just shows up as a mountable device... well it did in 18.04
<Eickmeyer> Rapid Photo Downloader is amazing, btw.
<Eickmeyer> You might also try Digikam.
<OvenWerks> Something I need to learn then
<Eickmeyer> RikMills: Any idea if there's something we can do in our config for PTP/MTP devices?
<Eickmeyer> Rapid Photo Downloader hardly takes any know-how.
<OvenWerks> Not worried about that, just used to opening the file manager and copy/paste or cut/paste
<OvenWerks> Seems odd I would have to use something else
<OvenWerks> Sort of like I have a 16oz hammer in my hand, but for silver nails I have to set it down and pick up the 18 oz hammer
<Eickmeyer> I mean, that surprises me. I've never had a problem when plugging-in my camera or my son's camera.
<Eickmeyer> We might have to install mtp-tools by default.
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: Try installing mtp-tools.
<Eickmeyer> Or go-mtpfs
<OvenWerks> Which one?
<Eickmeyer> go-mtpfs might already be installed.
<Eickmeyer> Try mtp-tools.
<OvenWerks> ripid-photo dl works ok... so how does one delete the copy on the camera then?
<Eickmeyer> There should be an option to auto-delete upon download. If not, then erase all images from the camera?
<OvenWerks> clear completed downloads
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: Hamburger menu (three lines), .... ^ Yeah, that.
<Eickmeyer> RPD is nice because it does a bunch simultaneously as opposed to a file manager which does one at a time, hence rapid.
<OvenWerks> Ya
<OvenWerks> in dolphin get an editable address and put in camera:/
<OvenWerks> The clear did not work... the pictures are still there :)
<OvenWerks> OK dolphin deleted my pictures. I was able to add a Camera to places on the sidebar. Clicking on that does go to the camera (well actually it opens a screen with a list of cameras) it does seem to show my camera twice for some reason, with both seeming to go to the same place.
<OvenWerks> Now I unplug the camera and one of the camera folders remains
<Eickmeyer> So, the sidebar is nothing but bookmarks, not like the traditional "places" of old.
<Eickmeyer> (this is for my beneift, just looking something up, ignore this: bug 1437180)
<ubottu> bug 1437180 in ubiquity (Ubuntu) "Desktop Icons show on the install only desktop" [Medium,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1437180
<Eickmeyer> Ok, that's what that was for. (cleaning the dvd-live seed)
<studiobot> <Eickmeyer> @teward001 It looks like you've had some more urgent, pressing matters, but materia-kde is still a thing: https://code.launchpad.net/~ubuntustudio-dev/materia-kde/+git/materia-kde
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer[m]: pulse does provide network out (and in). I did not know that was winders compatable but I am not surprised.
<Eickmeyer> Yeah, but that's not something easily set-up, and I have reason to believe his issues are somewhere in that setup.
<OvenWerks> I do not doubt that at all.
<OvenWerks> Though if they use -controls at all it restarts pulseaudio when jack gets turned off which might unload the net module.
<OvenWerks> another odd bit of info... a new install, start jack with controls right away and the user will need to turn up/unmute the audio card manually. Normally Pulse would do this for the user when the first appliaction connects and requests audio out...
<OvenWerks> I am not sure if this is true in all cases but it was yesterday
<Eickmeyer> Interesting. I wonder if alsa has introduced some odd defaults.
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer[m]: with my ice1712 it always has been -inf levels on all the analog signals and I have to remember to set them with every new install. Pulse does not know which ports are the actual outputs :)
<OvenWerks> On the first logout all alsa settings are saved so next boot/login is fine
<OvenWerks> What I would really like is an alsa backend for jack that has level control that can be set by level keys and the audio applet in the tray
<OvenWerks> What pulse does for these things is really quite good (except for input levels on cards with boost)
<OvenWerks> However, I suspect pipewire will get done before I get so far as making such a thing
 * OvenWerks is fixing bugs in Ardour foldback GUI
<RikMills> getting ready to upload new plasma bugfix release ;)
<Eickmeyer> RikMills: To Groovy, I assume?
<RikMills> for starters
<RikMills> I'll SRU the packages with bugfix changes for focal, but that is by the by for studio
<Eickmeyer> Right.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2020-05-06
<RikMills> I got this startup crash with krita on your iso https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=419947
<ubottu> KDE bug 419947 in General "Segfault QtPrivate::RefCount::ref" [Normal,Resolved: fixed]
<RikMills> I will try to fix that later
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer[m]: I wonder if it would help to add an "active timezone" to the irc title for #ubuntustudio
<OvenWerks> or an auto respond bot during the 0000hours to 0600hours PST
<RikMills> plasma 5.18.5 is all in release pocket
<Eickmeyer> RikMills: Thanks!
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: Yeah, not a bad idea.
 * Eickmeyer throws a bag of salt at @teward001
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: ardour 6.0 is hoping to release may 15... rc2 by the end of the week.
<Eickmeyer> Oooooo!
<Eickmeyer> Hopefully Debian picks it up so I don't have to do anything but make a PPA and upload.
<OvenWerks> so while I am working on some things to add, I won't merge them till after release to be in 6.1
<Eickmeyer> Looks like trebmuh has been at work there.
<Eickmeyer> trebmuh: I assume you've been following Ardour 6.0?
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: the intention is to release a new 6.* every two months until work on 7.0 takes over
<Eickmeyer> Oh cool!
<Eickmeyer> Better release cadence then.
<OvenWerks> cadence?
<Eickmeyer> Not the application cadence, the cadence of releases. :P
<OvenWerks> I thought that was depricated
<OvenWerks> Ah
<Eickmeyer> I don't think Cadence (capital C) is depricated, just in maintenance mode, afaict.
<OvenWerks> perhaps on paper, but I don't think there is any mainenance going on...
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: how far is pipewire along?
<Eickmeyer> Not sure, i need to play with it. I've been concentrating on the Plasma transition, which is tough when our ISO fails to build. I had to temporarily remove inkscape and openshot to get the builds working again.
<OvenWerks> I know the API has been frozen for about 4 releases now. Are any of the distros including it
<Eickmeyer> Fedora has Pipewire by default included, but not enabled.
<OvenWerks> can it just be installed without wide spread changes?
<Eickmeyer> It can, and it also installs a script that needs to be executed to "turn it on" as it were.
<OvenWerks> I know it can run "beside" jack, can it do the same with pulse?
<Eickmeyer> Not yet, afaik.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2020-05-07
<OvenWerks> matrix is gone?
<Eickmeyer> No, Matrix isn't gone. Every now and then they reset the bridge.
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: New icon for Studio Controls? https://www.svgrepo.com/svg/233175/circle-oval
<Eickmeyer> Another idea: https://www.svgrepo.com/svg/8167/circles
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: the first is too close to the ubuntustudio one I think... might lead to confusion
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: That's why I saw the second one and thought it might work with a little tweaking.
<Eickmeyer> They're CC0 so they don't even need credit.
<OvenWerks> https://www.svgrepo.com/svg/8176/split-circle has both S and C if it was flipped upside down...
<OvenWerks> However, you have better graphics skills than I do so feel free to use whatever seems to work.
<OvenWerks> maybe it doesn't need to be flipped
<Eickmeyer> I don't think it needs to be flipped. Just not a fan of the lime green, but that can be changed.
<OvenWerks> of course there is the extra D (SCD?)
<OvenWerks>  :)
<Eickmeyer> Studio Controls for Dummies? hahaha
<OvenWerks> :) that is certainly where it started out.
<Eickmeyer> Hahaha
<OvenWerks> anyway, I need to get my wife out the door to work.
 * OvenWerks has been working on adding a meter to the foldback bus
<Eickmeyer> Nice. :)
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: I played with it and came up with this: 
<Eickmeyer> Uhhh...
 * Eickmeyer[m] uploaded an image: g90.png (19KB) < https://matrix.org/_matrix/media/r0/download/matrix.org/YJRItJtVmDPVXVzKvlEWCxHX >
<Eickmeyer[m]>  That.
<Eickmeyer[m]> OvenWerks: ^
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: Unrelated, new upload of hexter just hit Debian.
<OvenWerks> I'm fine with that
<Eickmeyer> Cool. I'll get working on it.
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: New icon is added. I've begun working on the actual, non-native packaging. How do you feel about using what we've got as a 1.99.0 release in preparation for a 2.0 release as studio-controls?
<Eickmeyer> By release I mean tag?
<Eickmeyer> 1.99 basically pre-release.
<OvenWerks> sure
<Eickmeyer> Ok.
<OvenWerks> There are some things I would like to get out for G though on top of that.
<OvenWerks> but having a release means it can be packaged
<Eickmeyer> Well, sure. This just gives us a baseline to start. I made launchpad.net/studio-controls to be staging for the packaging.
<OvenWerks> so like cadence... ubuntustudio-controls can't be used at the same time :)
<Eickmeyer> Right, nothing in the debian/control file is changing in that regard.
<OvenWerks> oh but it does need to be change to add conficts with ubuntustudio-controls
<OvenWerks> or provides or replaces
<Eickmeyer> Right. It will be Conflicts: ubuntustudio-controls <= whatever and then I'll upload a new ubuntustudio-controls as a transitional dummy package.
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: Feel free to put all code/bugfixes in s-c on github. Any fixes will land in s-c.
<Eickmeyer> teward: "new" package at https://launchpad.net/studio-controls. Literally replaces ubuntustudio-controls as an unbranded, cross-distro application.
<teward> if it replaces do you have a migration plan to switch ubuntustudio-controls -> studio-controls (i.e. metapackage)
<Eickmeyer> Yes, all ready to go. studio-controls needs to land first for obvious reasons.
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: right, That was my plan anyway... but it will be after Ardour 6.0 Or at least RC2 I think.
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: Sounds good, which means my timing on getting this transition going is right.
<Eickmeyer> I just don't want you to have to put code in two different places.
<OvenWerks> :)
<OvenWerks> Foldback meter: http://www.ovenwerks.net/paste/foldbackmeter.png
<OvenWerks> I am realizing it is the only horizontal meter in Ardour.... so I am getting prepared to be told to make it vertical :)
<Eickmeyer> OMG... if I had a nickel for every console that had vertical meters but also had one horizontal meter, I'd be a rich man.
<Eickmeyer> Their argument is invalid.
<Eickmeyer> That said, looks good.
<OvenWerks> It's not my toy and Ben has a lot to say about it too cause it lands in MB. 
<Eickmeyer> Yeah, that's fair.
<OvenWerks> Vertical would mean the level knob would be offset probably
<OvenWerks> My original reasoning was that the reason people wanted the plugin box bigger was because they wanted to put an inline meter in there which would be horizontal...
<Eickmeyer> Yeah, that might look a little funny, but I guess it's not your call.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2020-05-08
<OvenWerks> It has gone in horizontal.
<OvenWerks> Paul likes the contrast to "other" strips
<OvenWerks> I have tried to get it to use application colours/theme so it should match other stuff in MB
<Eickmeyer> Nice.
<krytarik> Eickmeyer: https://git.launchpad.net/studio-controls/tree/debian/control#n26 - just noticed it's spelled "-contols" there. >_>  But also, nice move to make the tool distro-agnostic!
<Eickmeyer> krytarik: Oof....
<Eickmeyer> teward: We missed something. ^
<Eickmeyer> Not a huge issue yet.
<krytarik> Yeah, just as see it..
<teward> we can REJECT the upload :p
<Eickmeyer> True.
<Eickmeyer> teward: typo fix pushed, feel free to reupload as soon as we get that reject.
<Eickmeyer> krytarik: But yeah, it's something that OvenWerks and I had been contemplating for a while.
<teward> Eickmeyer: that was rejected I just pulled from git again, this ready to go now?
<Eickmeyer> Yes, typo is fixed.
<teward> okay pushed again
<Eickmeyer> Ok
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: WRT bug 1872187, I have looked at the code and the docs on the same code... unless python has changed or the gi lib, I don't know what that would be.
<ubottu> bug 1872187 in ubuntustudio-controls (Ubuntu Groovy) "[SRU] ubuntustudio-controls crashed with IndexError in refresh_dropdowns(): list index out of range" [High,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1872187
<OvenWerks> sorry not that one
<OvenWerks> the one in the email I just got:
<Eickmeyer> I feel as though that was a false positive, but I need to hear back yet. It won't let me look up the error for some strange reason.
<OvenWerks> Bug 1867705
<ubottu> Error: Launchpad bug 1867705 could not be found
<Eickmeyer> That's a private bug.
<OvenWerks> you have now marked it as a duplicate
<OvenWerks> Ah right
<OvenWerks>  I remember, I can get to it
<OvenWerks> I am wondering if this is one of those wayland things
<Eickmeyer> Might be, but it was a prerelease version anyhow. Also, "Argument 1 does not allow None as a value" screams as though the audio device had no descriptor.
<OvenWerks> argument 1 of __init__
<Eickmeyer> Oh, I see, so it's dying on launch, you think?
<OvenWerks>     def __init__(self): is what is there... maybe self is not initialized before it gets to there
<Eickmeyer> So is it a duplicate or no?
<OvenWerks> Except self is argument 0? I would think
<Eickmeyer> Also StevenJayCohen hasn't reported this kind of bug, so I think it might have been an isolated incident.
<OvenWerks> Is there a choice in vanilla to use wayland or x?
<Eickmeyer> Yes, during login.
<Eickmeyer> I've used it both ways myself and had no issues.
<OvenWerks> Are there actually applications written to use wayland natively?
<OvenWerks>  So maybe can't reproduce?
<Eickmeyer> Yes, but ours uses Xwyaland, I think.
<Eickmeyer> Cant reproduce.
<OvenWerks> wayland has a x compatability layer... but it is not fully compatable... and the developers of wayland don't care "because x is wrong anyway"
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: Mar 16 22:39:34 hostname gnome-shell[1859]: Connection to xwayland lost
<Eickmeyer> Looks like they were having a plethora of video-related errors too.
<Eickmeyer> Here's the kicker though: hostname /usr/lib/gdm3/gdm-x-session
<Eickmeyer> They weren't even running Wayland.
<Eickmeyer> The other thing is the date: March 16. The final version of GNOME 3.36 hadn't even hit the archive yet.
<Eickmeyer> There's too much wrong with this bug report to say what definitively went wrong.
<OvenWerks> So long as you have run it on vanilla both x and wl I am happy
<OvenWerks> I would go with does it happen in 20.04 release... or something.
<OvenWerks> Yup like that
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: Ooof... that same bug appeared in the version headed into the archive: https://pastebin.ubuntu.com/p/BS8dNqknj4/
<Eickmeyer> Definitely Wayland related.
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: Nope, might not be Wayland related. I'm going to give this a few tests in Ubuntu proper and see if I can duplicate the bug. I've assigned this "critical", so, unfortunately, we're going to have to get this resolved before we can work on studio-controls by itself.
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: I was able to duplicate the crash. Seems like a newer version of Python is to blame?
<Eickmeyer> wonko: If you're around, we could use some Python help with ubuntustudio-controls
<Eickmeyer> ALL HANDS ON DECK: This is a CRITICAL bug.
<Eickmeyer> Launches fine from the terminal.
<Eickmeyer> And then it's fine.
<Eickmeyer> Strange.
<wonko> Yeah, what's up?
<Eickmeyer> wonko: So, we have an interesting bug in Ubuntu Studio Controls that's happening when it's first launched on Ubuntu (proper, GNOME desktop). 
<Eickmeyer> ypeError in __init__(): Argument 1 does not allow None as a value Edit
<Eickmeyer> *TypeError in __init__(): Argument 1 does not allow None as a value Edit
<Eickmeyer> minus the "Edit"
<Eickmeyer> Traceback is here: https://launchpadlibrarian.net/469360059/Traceback.txt
<wonko> Without seeing the code or having a system to test on I'm going go guess that screen.get_active_window() is returning None and that's not valid?
<Eickmeyer> That would make sense, but I'm no python expert.
<wonko> do you have a link to the code?
<Eickmeyer> wonko: https://git.launchpad.net/ubuntustudio-controls/tree/usr/bin/ubuntustudio-controls
<Eickmeyer> Looks like it's the unused Wacom tablet settings.
<wonko> so what you should do is get the results from screen.get_active_screen() and if it's None skip that next bit. That's just a WAG not having followed the entire progam flow, however.
<Eickmeyer> wonko: Well, that makes logical sense.
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: Thoughts? ^
<teward> could also try/accept in that section of the code to skip on error.
<teward> which makes more sense than attempting to store the value first before handling
<teward> (saves memory long-run)
<teward> (albeit a tiny bit of memory but still)
<teward> Eickmeyer: OvenWerks: ^
<teward> s/accept/except/
<Eickmeyer> teward: I don't have any idea how to do that, I'm not a python coder.
<teward> i do ;)
<teward> OvenWerks probably does too
<teward> but i don't want to futz with controls unless I can avoid it :)
<teward> minor packaging issues, sure, but not the source :)
<Eickmeyer> I totally get that.
<Eickmeyer> I'd rather OvenWerks or wonko took this on, personally.
<Eickmeyer> Bug 1867705 is now public.
<ubottu> bug 1867705 in ubuntustudio-controls (Ubuntu) "ubuntustudio-controls crashed with TypeError in __init__(): Argument 1 does not allow None as a value" [Critical,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1867705
<wonko> yeah, try/except is probably a better way. good call teward.
<teward> python 101 :)
<wonko> I'm trying to write less python these days. :)
<teward> Eickmeyer: isn't https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ubuntustudio-controls/+bug/1877612 a dupe of 1867705?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1877612 in ubuntustudio-controls (Ubuntu) "/usr/bin/ubuntustudio-controls:TypeError:/usr/bin/ubuntustudio-controls@1081:__init__" [Critical,New]
<teward> if these're dupes then I can dupe em
<Eickmeyer> teward: Yeah, it's a dupe. I marked it as such.
<teward> cool
<OvenWerks> If it is the tablet stuff... it will most likely be removed. I have found out that the tablet's "area" has nothing to do with the screen anyway.
<OvenWerks> I have some school to do with my son for an hour or so. then I will look at it.
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: do you want me to just remove the tablet code? For what direction we are planning for that it looks like I will have to start over anyway :(
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: Yeah, might as well. It's causing issues. :/
<Eickmeyer> RikMills: Are you around? I'm trying to figure out how to configure the default GTK theme.
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: Let me know when you have this fixed.
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: it needs testing on a problematic system
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: I had another idea... but it is not de agnostic.
<OvenWerks> I was thinking a button on the tablet page that goes to the setup applet for plasma's tablets.
<OvenWerks> I don't know if we could have a list of known setup applets and run the first one we find...
<OvenWerks> anyway, that is for later. The fix is in us-c but not s-c
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: Yeah, I can spin-up a default Ubuntu system and do the diagnostic.
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: I got the fix, looks like it worked. I'll go ahead and SRU this.
<OvenWerks> :) thanks
<OvenWerks> That was a bit of a long drop out... Cable is not as good as the old copper ADSL...
<Eickmeyer> Yeah, that's the downside. The upside is, at least theoretically, it's faster.
<OvenWerks> Much faster even upload
#ubuntustudio-devel 2020-05-09
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: Since Debian is being slow, I'm sure you saw my email, but jackd2 1.9.14 is headed into backports.
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: just got home from grocery so not yet :)
<OvenWerks> Is that the one that has "pretty names"?
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: It's the latest, so *shrug*
<OvenWerks> It should have then
<Eickmeyer> Yup.
<RikMills> Eickmeyer: since the Breeze GTK theme became good enough to keep by default, I have lost track of what bit of plasma sets up the config when 1st time for a user
<Eickmeyer> RikMills: I got an answer from #kde-devel, and it basically use /etc/skel. :P
<OvenWerks> Ewe
<RikMills> ick
<Eickmeyer> Very ew.
<OvenWerks> nothing in /etc/xdg?
<OvenWerks> ls
<Eickmeyer> They basically have no way of setting the default via override. There's no config API for it for the GTK settings.
<RikMills> yeah, I think plasma is hard coded to use breeze if no existing user config is there
<RikMills> now I think of it
<Eickmeyer> It's really non-vendor friendly.
<OvenWerks> where does the user config go?
<OvenWerks> (and why does my kubuntu + studio system have a /etc/xdg/xfce4/ directory?)
<Eickmeyer> Something is pulling it in.
<RikMills> ~/.config/gtk-3.0/settings.ini
<Eickmeyer> RikMills: Yep, that's what I'm having to put in /etc/skel.
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: something about libexo bringing it in.
<OvenWerks> ok, odd I thought that was a gnome-ish thing.
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: Looks like libxfce4ui-common is being pulled-in by something.
<OvenWerks> But yeah that makes sense. we use that fr menu-add
<Eickmeyer> Probably leftovers on our end.
<Eickmeyer> Ohhhhh... yeah, that would do it.
<OvenWerks> I don't know if there is a qt/kde equiv
<OvenWerks> On the other hand... we could roll our own. The only real thing I use it for is searching for icons.
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: right-click on your "start" menu (kickoff or whatever) and click "Edit Applications". Using that is how I got lsp-plugins to cooperate and put that in ubuntustudio-menu.
<Eickmeyer> It follows xdg standards and uses an override in the user directory.
<OvenWerks> So knowing which icon theme is in use and then following down through the tree unless there is a python lib that does that already
<Eickmeyer> Yeah, I don't know. All I know is it uses whichever icon theme is in use, and, actually, doesn't care.
<Eickmeyer> It doesn't seem to override any icons unless you explicitly tell it to do so.
<OvenWerks> Basically, I create a desktop file template using the user selected name and some boilerplate info then run it through the exo edit to get icon, and executable. Then I add the line that tells it where in the menu structure to go. The only hard part to replace in the edit function is setting the icon
<OvenWerks> Of course :)
<OvenWerks> if you change a system desktop file, it takes it as is, lets you edit it and then writes it to the user's ~/.local/share/applications/ dir
<OvenWerks> I think it even keeps translations intact
<Eickmeyer> Yep. You could, theroretically, take that anywhere then.
<OvenWerks> As I say, the only real use I make of the editor that would not be (relatively) easy to do is an icon chooser.
<Eickmeyer> RikMills: So, after a brief conversation in #kde-devel with the kde-gtk-config developer, it is indeed hardcoded to Breeze, and there's no way to override the default except with user configs. I told him he needs implement a way to configure the default the same way the rest of Plasma does (with $XDG_CONFIG_DIRS).
<RikMills> sigh
<Eickmeyer> Seems like a gigantic oversight on his part.
<OvenWerks> sounds like a bug report to me.
<OvenWerks> That would give reason for adding to skel
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: Which is exactly what I had to do.
<Eickmeyer> Unfortunately, that kind of bug report becomes "Feature Request, wishlist".
<OvenWerks> Thats ok so long as it gives a good enough reason to add to skel
<Eickmeyer> Well, they shouldn't be adding to skel. We shouldn't be adding to skel. They need a variable that sets the default, not a hardcode.
<OvenWerks> So bug.
<Eickmeyer> Yep.
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=421240
<ubottu> KDE bug 421240 in kcm_style "Create a way to set a variable for downstreams to customize default GTK theme" [Normal,Unconfirmed]
<Eickmeyer> RikMills: ^
<RikMills> Eickmeyer: ack. if that gets a fix that is not in the Plasma version we end up with in 20.10, I'll try to cherry pick it from the plasma master branches
<Eickmeyer> RikMills: You are a gentleman and a scholar.
<RikMills> I probably score 0.5 out of 2 on that really!
<Eickmeyer> Haha
<cjdg> hi there
<cjdg> :)
<cjdg> i would like to see how i can help ubuntu studio
<OvenWerks> cjdg: sounds good stay tuned ( Eickmeyer ^^^) one of us will be around in a bit
 * OvenWerks has a birthday to get ready for...
<Eickmeyer> Actually... I'm not going to be around much longer today.
<Eickmeyer> cjdg: Would you mind uh.... staying connected indefinitely? XD
 * Eickmeyer really shouldn't be doing Dev work on the weekends.
<cjdg> will try
<cjdg> i have 1 kid and a newborn
<cjdg> by the way i saw the news about implementing kde into the next release
<Eickmeyer> cjdg: What did you think of that?
<Eickmeyer> eylul[m]: @azbulutlu: If you try the latest daily ISO, the first thing I want you to do is lock the screen and tell me what you think.
<Eickmeyer> (there is no password to get back in)
<cjdg> well really?
<cjdg> i think is a good thing
<Eickmeyer> cjdg: There have been two sides of that. One is love, the other is hate. I just wanted to see which camp you were in. :)
<cjdg> im not so much into kde, but there are some things with the current desktop that are quite odd, mostly about the file manager,  which lacks a lot of features, the only thing that concerns me is performance, i use a lot ubuntu studio for both devel and making art and music performances
<Eickmeyer> cjdg: Well, I addressed that in the news posts, we have noticed negligible performance degredation, if any.
<cjdg> great
<cjdg> now the big question is 
<cjdg> how to make the next realease to move from old desktop
<cjdg> to new kde without broke things
<Eickmeyer> cjdg: We can't support it, sadly.
<cjdg> so will be necessary a fresh install?
<Eickmeyer> Yes.
<cjdg> ok, so the new iso has kde ?
<Eickmeyer> The daily, yes.
<cjdg> ok then i will start to test it
<cjdg> by the way
<cjdg> also i had working with a lot of developres
<cjdg> developers from apps like natron and praxis
<cjdg> do you know those programs?
<Eickmeyer> Not really.
<cjdg> natron is a video composition soft like adobe
<cjdg> and praxis is a creative coding lang based on java
<cjdg> im promoting ubuntu studio at art festivals
<cjdg> and so on
<cjdg> by example piksel in norway
<cjdg> transpiksel in america
<cjdg> efusion in mexico
<cjdg> i believe ubuntu studio is the best one!
<cjdg> and about the packages
<cjdg> years ago there was the idea to use snaps for mostly all the packages right? so it can be updated automatically, there is still that plan ?
<cjdg> or has changed?
<Eickmeyer> We haven't followed that plan for Studio.
<Eickmeyer> cjdg: Nor can we really use Snaps for everything. They don't allow for plugins.
<Eickmeyer> cjdg: So, to get involved, I'd encourage you to participate here when able, and follow the conversations. Finding a spot to serve works best that way. Let us get to know you, and you'll figure out where you belong pretty quick.
<cjdg> thanks
<Eickmeyer> cjdg: Also, we like to see people helping other people out in #ubuntustudio (the support channel).
<cjdg> im there also
<Eickmeyer> cjdg: Perfect. :)
<cjdg> one question were can i download the daily isos?
<Eickmeyer> cjdg: cdimage.ubuntu.com
#ubuntustudio-devel 2020-05-10
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: s-c is now updated with bug fix
<OvenWerks> Hope fully I can just move forward now...
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: Agreed. That regression was a PITA.
<Eickmeyer> Technically not a regression, but whatever.
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: What do you make of bug 1877806?
<ubottu> bug 1877806 in calf (Ubuntu) "ardour crashes when saving lv2 plugin preset" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1877806
<StevenJayCohen> I'm planning an article about installing Studio into other flavors. Is it okay to mention the eventual goal of Studio Controls not being exclusive to Ubuntu? 
<StevenJayCohen> Building the article around a reference to Janet from The Good Place: Girl/Not-a-girl becomes Flavor/Not-a-flavor
<StevenJayCohen> So, yes, I am implying that UbubtuStudio is a Janet
<Eickmeyer> StevenJayCohen: I'd rather publicly announce that on our site first, but one idea I had for you was giving you access to the website to do some posts there.
<RikMills> kde frameworks 5.70.0 landing in proposed
<StevenJayCohen> That's why I thought to ask. It felt like something requiring an official announcement. I've got enough to make a post without that part anyway. Reminding people that Studio can work inside any other flavor seems like enough for an article. We're both using wordpress, right? If I remember correctly there is a way to syndicate a post. Or I can keep my personal posts about my personal experience and figure
<StevenJayCohen> out how to generalize the advice for posts to the official blog.
<Eickmeyer> RikMills: \o/
<RikMills> maybe /o\ https://pointieststick.com/2020/05/10/why-the-animations-in-your-plasma-5-18-feel-slow-now-and-when-it-will-be-fixed/
<Eickmeyer> RikMills: uhoh...
<RikMills> I wish plasma devs would tell me these things before they release things!
<Eickmeyer> StevenJayCohen: Yeah, keep your personal posts separate. I'm sure you can come up with stuff for the site though. And maybe Twitter, too.
<Eickmeyer> RikMills: So, slugfest for a month then, it seems.
<RikMills> unless I can safely revert the commits in question via a patch
<RikMills> I am not sure how long until we get 5.19, as it requires new qt and 2 new sources
<Eickmeyer> Are we waiting on Debian for new qt or....?
<RikMills> yes debian, and then a transition here
<Eickmeyer> Ok
<RikMills> we might get our transition done 1st, but not all qt 5.14 is packaged yet
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: Calf plugins are not known for stability, dsp quality, care is coding etc.
<OvenWerks> Ardour does not "sandbox" plugins as some other sw does or allows because it does not scale and there are Ardour users who regularily use Ardour with well over 100 channels in live situations where their livelyhood depends on quality.
<OvenWerks> Ardour is profesional sw, Calf plugins are not.
<OvenWerks> I wish people would not suggest the use of calf plugins except where there is no other sw that can do the same job (almost never)
<OvenWerks> I would (if it was up to me) drop the package from US.
<OvenWerks> They are working on replacing the the gui tool kit with a unique built in kit.
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: Right, and lsp-plugins are more complete nowadays anyhow. Might be worth dropping calf from the default, but we can't drop it from the repo. That bug was originally filed against Ardour, should I remove Ardour from the bug report?
<StevenJayCohen> I mostly use: AirWindows, GVST, and LSP plugins. Then again, I rarely use virtual instruments.
<StevenJayCohen> The LSP plugins have an odd glitch graphically, but I think its the plugins and not Ubuntu Studio at fault.
<Eickmeyer> Got a screenshot?
 * StevenJayCohen uploaded an image: image.png (48KB) < https://matrix.org/_matrix/media/r0/download/matrix.org/bWTXPVTeSGkugnuqgBIYqNpJ >
<StevenJayCohen> I've seen this on windows when VSTs don't properly request a window size, some hosts just collapse
<StevenJayCohen> I can resize it and use it fine
<StevenJayCohen> That's not Reaper, Reaper works fine.
<Eickmeyer> Ok, so yeah, that means the plugin isn't requesting a proper window size. Might be worth filing a bug report with the developer. https://github.com/sadko4u/lsp-plugins
<StevenJayCohen> I had that on my todo list ;)
<Eickmeyer> As a matter of fact, looks like you've got nothing to do then: https://github.com/sadko4u/lsp-plugins/issues/101
<Eickmeyer> Known issue. :)
<StevenJayCohen> I'll just chime in there then.
<StevenJayCohen> My screenshot was in OcenAudio https://www.ocenaudio.com/
<Eickmeyer> Looks like it's fixed, just awaiting a hotfix.
<StevenJayCohen> I don't get the error in Reaper at all
<Eickmeyer> Still might get fixed in the hotfix. I'd wait until after that is released. Will probably be 1.1.20 when released.
<Eickmeyer> I track this pretty closely and try to backport when able.
<StevenJayCohen> true
 * Eickmeyer notes that 1.1.19 still needs to be pushed to groovy, but ERR:PackageSetRightsDelayed
 * Eickmeyer *ahem*teward*ahem*
<Eickmeyer> And yes, I know Rafael was working on them, but this sure is taking a while.
<teward> i have a headache what
<Eickmeyer> Packageset. Go back to your hangover. :)
<teward> 1.1.19 of what?
<teward> not a hangover
<Eickmeyer> 1.1.19 of lsp-plugins
<teward> allergies + sinuses
<teward> Eickmeyer: is it ready to go?
<Eickmeyer> teward: Yes. lp:lsp-plugins
<StevenJayCohen> Now I can't remember, did Studio come with GVST installed or did I add that?
<Eickmeyer> StevenJayCohen: I'm not 100% sure on that.
<teward> Eickmeyer: on radar for BeforeBedtime today
<StevenJayCohen> I think they haven't been updated in a few years (the linux and mac versions).
<Eickmeyer> teward: Ok, go nurse your headache. :)
<teward> can't
<teward> work requires attention
<Eickmeyer> teward: My condolances and regrets. :(
<StevenJayCohen> These: https://www.gvst.co.uk/portpage.htm
<Eickmeyer> Innnnterrrresssssting.
<StevenJayCohen> teward: Sorry about the headache. I get them too.
<Eickmeyer> Yeah, I don't think we carry that by default.
<StevenJayCohen> Guess I added it and forgot
<StevenJayCohen> THey are solid and simple
<Eickmeyer> Yeah, but where's the source code?
<teward> StevenJayCohen: meh it happens.  I also need my caffeine but E:NOCOFFEE
<StevenJayCohen> Right, I wasn't sure on that
<Eickmeyer> Yeah, doesn't look like they're open source.
<StevenJayCohen> been there
<Eickmeyer> Unfortunatelly, means I have to Nack adding them.
<teward> if it's not open source we can't package it normally.  we'd need to touch base with Canonical, etc. to see if it needs to go into multiverse or such
<teward> yeah which means we can't include them per licensing policy
<teward> *yawns*
<teward> Eickmeyer: we need to set up a trello board or something with tasks to assign :P
<teward> Lubuntu has Phabricator
<teward> maybe we just need something similar
<StevenJayCohen> Probably added it when I grabbed this: https://loudmax.blogspot.com/
<Eickmeyer> Yeah. I'll look into it, but first; housecleaning, because Mother's Day, and my wife deserves a day.
<StevenJayCohen> Universe would be a great place for OcenAudio - quick QT based sound editor - free, project from a Brazilian University, not open source packaged in a deb file.
<StevenJayCohen> https://www.ocenaudio.com/whatis
<teward> > not open source packaged
<Eickmeyer> ^ That
<teward> so the source isn't available.
<teward> if we can't get the source we can't ship it
<StevenJayCohen> Much slicker than AUdiacity, QT based, and respects theming
<Eickmeyer> We cannot include anything that's not open source, StevenJayCohen .
<teward> ^ this
<StevenJayCohen> right, but would that be Universe? or not?
<teward> it can't be universe
<Eickmeyer> That would technically be Multiverse.
<teward> because we can't ship non-open-source packages
<teward> Eickmeyer: and even then we STILL need source access
<Eickmeyer> ^True.
<StevenJayCohen> Multi -- got it
<StevenJayCohen> I wonder if they'd be open to that?
<Eickmeyer> We would still need the source code, even if in multiverse.
<teward> i'd have to consult with Release Team and Archive Admins
<teward> as well as Canonical
<teward> because I need to cover our butts legally :P
<StevenJayCohen> Yep, understood.
<teward> MOST closed source things are not open to it
<teward> and Multiverse isn't default enabled last I checked.
<Eickmeyer> That's correct.
<StevenJayCohen> Performance-wise, it wipes the floor with Audacity (if all you need is a single track editor)
<Eickmeyer> So, even if it was in Multiverse, we can't include it by default.
<StevenJayCohen> Yeah, I get it -- too bad really.
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: we can point out places where people can get other sw that may be approriate to their workflow
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: We have to be careful with that. The open source zealots would have a field day if we endorsed anything that's closed-source. Something on the website might be good, though. 
<OvenWerks> it would be nice to add zyn/fussion now that fussion has been released open
<RikMills> Eickmeyer: I'm told that kde animation commit should be fine to revert for now
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: I would n ot add a utility that points to them or even urls, but a web page that list some sites was all I meant.
<Eickmeyer> RikMills: Cool. That could be a decent stopgap until we know for certain if 5.19 is going to drop with the new qt.
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: Yeah, we're on the same page.
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer, teward: Is this a valid licence: https://github.com/zynaddsubfx/zyn-fusion-build/blob/master/COPYING
<Eickmeyer> The WTFPL? Yes. It is definitely valid.
<OvenWerks> As in valid for inclusion in debian?
<OvenWerks> (acceptable)
<Eickmeyer> I don't see why not, it's probably not the first time a Debian package has been WTFPL.
<tsimonq2> I've seen it. Don't ask. :P
<tsimonq2> As long as it's documented in debian/copyright, it's a legit license.
<OvenWerks> Cool we should change the upstream for zynaddsubfx
<tsimonq2> ...was it relicensed or just forked?
<tsimonq2> Sorry, I'm missing some context.
<OvenWerks> the fussion gui adds controls to function ality that the old gui doesn't
<OvenWerks> relicenced
<OvenWerks> the first year out it was closed source (just the GUI)
<tsimonq2> Might be slightly sketchy if there are still original files with an older license.
<tsimonq2> Ohh, okay.
<tsimonq2> And the vendor gave permission to relicense?
<OvenWerks> The vender did the relicence
<tsimonq2> Okay.
<tsimonq2> That works then.
<tsimonq2> Just make sure you do a full copyright check - so check every file for anything which may say that it could still be closed.
<tsimonq2> It's tedious and it's the worst part of packaging but it's vital.
<Eickmeyer> tsimonq2: Oh, look what that cat dragged in!
<OvenWerks> It was part of the business plan from the day it was released. Make the new gui paid for the first year and then release the code open source after that.
<OvenWerks> The actual dsp with the old gui remained open source the whole time.
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: So, I'm trying to understand this thing. This is a build script on TOP of zynadsubfx for the fusion GUI?
<OvenWerks> It loks so. I am looking at https://lists.linuxaudio.org/archives/linux-audio-user/2020-May/113013.html
<Eickmeyer> I'm getting a strong whiff of this requiring a repack to be a valid package.
<OvenWerks> where it seems to that cloning that will auto pull in the other?
<OvenWerks> could be.
<Eickmeyer> Yes. We can't simply do that in packaging.
<Eickmeyer> I mean, RPM packaging is capable, but this is running into the limitations of DEB packaging.
<Eickmeyer> This seems to use two separate repos to build zyn-fusion.
<Eickmeyer> Theoretically, it could be done with a repack, but this is debian packaging gymnastics for sure.
<Eickmeyer> I'd just have to patch the build script to ignore a whole bunch since you can't be "git clone"-ing anything inside a Debian package build.
<OvenWerks> I now understand why this has not happened yet
<Eickmeyer> I'm also leery anytime I see the name rosea grammostola. Technically, that's the name of a tarantula, but in this case it's the moniker of a very pushy, militant, "I know what's best for the Linux Audio community and I represent it" person.
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: but it is a pointer to the repo that I was interested in more than the poster who was posting in responce to another person.
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: Right, gotcha. So, the big thing is that the build script clones the main zynaddsubfx repo, not like a typical submodule thing.
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: re:pitivi, I had thought when we put that one in, it was because it was a live videa editor... sort of half way between other editors and obs. However, I just opened it up and it is nothing like I remember so maybe I was thinking of something else...
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: Yeah, it's pretty much a basic video editor now. It's done by Gnome, IIRC.
<OvenWerks> Anyway, from my POV those changes are fine
<OvenWerks> RE: most plugins... If we could not install the jack client variety I would be happy
<Eickmeyer> So, even lsp-plugins since I made that submenu?
<Eickmeyer> I'm not against it, by any means.
<Eickmeyer> Rather, not against that proposal.
