#ubuntu-mobile 2007-09-18
* Starting logfile irclogs/ubuntu-mobile.log
<ToddBrandt> Mithrandir: who is the owner of the network-mananger package?
<dholbach> good morning
<amitk> good morning'ish
<agoliveira> Mithrandir: Good mornig. Feeling better?
<Del_pIero> hi
<Del_pIero> can anyone help me
<Del_pIero> anyone
<ian_brasil> hi
<ian_brasil> Del_piero:what is your problem...dunno if i can help but i try
<Del_pIero> iv got a nokia e65
<Del_pIero> i want to unlock it to any network
<mjg59> Del_pIero: This isn't a channel about mobile pones
<Del_pIero> erm can someone direct me to the ryt direction
<ian_brasil> http://www.oreillynet.com/onlamp/blog/2003/11/unlocking_your_nokia_phone.html
<Del_pIero> thnx
<Charliefjohnson> Mithrandir: Are you online?  I just sent you an email about schedule.  Can you please respond?
<Sciri> Quick question for Mithrandir, HappyCamp, or anyone else who might be paying attention. :) We need to setup a way to view our bzr backups on our internal Web server like gitweb for git or viewvc for cvs and svn. Any suggestions or should I continue to just poke through Launchpad for a project that actually has some code? ;)
<HappyCamp> Sciri, Sorry don't know.  Haven't used bzr yet.  But I'm sure they have something similar to gitweb.
<Sciri> HappyCamp: Indeed...I searched Launchpad and found a deprecated project and a few other projects that seemed Alpha. Not sure if there's something for bzr as easy as "apt-get install gitweb". ;)
<HappyCamp> Sciri, my guess is that it would be part of the default bzr install.  Well I would check there first.
<rustyl> i can browse code for bzr code in launchpad.  I don't know what implements the back-end, but an example would be http://codebrowse.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-mobile/hildon-desktop/ubuntu/files/horace.li%40intel.com-20070830054331-3vmznt9g77auu143
<Sciri> HappyCamp: Yeah, I did a quick dpkg -l on bzr and bzrtools but didn't see anything that jumped out like a Web interface.
<Sciri> rustyl: Cool, I'll take a look at that. Thanks!
<mdz> rustyl: it's called loggerhead
<smagoun> Sciri: look at the the giant 'loggerhead' button at the bottom of the page rustyl linked to...
<mdz> Sciri: as rusty says, anything which is hosted or mirrored on launchpad can be browsed using that tool
<Sciri> mdz: Awesome, thanks, I had just clicked that button.
<scheater5> Lotta people in here for no traffic...I'm hoping someone is around who knows something about Archos brand media players?
<mjg59> scheater5: No
<agoliveira> scheater5: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileAndEmbedded/FAQ
<scheater5> agoliveria: thanks for the response, and I've already been to that page.  I've been trying to find out what the architecture is on Archos' 5th generation players for the possibility of installing ubuntu mobile or MIDINUX on one
#ubuntu-mobile 2007-09-19
<HappyCamp> Anyone know if it hurts to remove "ubuntu-desktop"?  I want to stop that darn trackerd process from running and sucking away my CPU cycles.  If I remove it, it will also remove ubuntu-desktop.
<HappyCamp> remove meaning: apt-get remove tracker
<scheater5> Ok, I was in here earlier asking about Archos media players.  I have since found out that Archos uses "Davinci Technology" for it's processors, and they are "programmable systems-on-chips (SoCs) tailored from DSP and ARM cores" - does anyone know any more about what that might mean?  
<dholbach> good morning
<ToddBrandt> Mithrandir, you on?
<sodarock_home> Is Mithrandir awake?
<sodarock_home> Mithrandir: any chance that we can push image creator into Gutsy?  It has been a couple weeks since it has been updated, I think.
<sodarock_home> I'm off to bed.  Have a good day.
<dholbach> sleep tight sodarock_home
<sodarock_home> Have a good day dholbach .  Hopefully I'll see you at UDS in Boston.  I'll try to book my flight tomorrow.
<dholbach> rock and roll :-)
<agoliveira> dholbach: Hi Daniel. Could you take a looks at bugs 138725 and 140845?
<ToddBrandt> agoliveira: do you know which file I add to to have a process kick off right at startup? 
<agoliveira> ToddBrandt: You mean on UME? It deppends on what do you mean by "right at startup". You mean at system, X or user session startup?
<ToddBrandt> Where gnome-settings-daemon would normally start up, probably at the C level
<ToddBrandt> X level I mean
<ToddBrandt> Since I manage the control panel I;ve never had to kick off a master process until now, I've altered gnome-settings-daemon into a smaller, more compact daemon called moblin-settings-daemon
<ToddBrandt> It's auto started by the various control panel applets that use it, but I need it to be running right from the start
<agoliveira> ToddBrandt: I guess you could use /etc/X11/xinit/xinitrc
<ToddBrandt> hmm, interesting
<kwwii> hi
<agoliveira> kwwii: Ok ;)
<agoliveira> kwwii: I was talking to Matt yesterday and he wants to have the theme package uploaded ASAP, even if it's not working.
<kwwii> agoliveira: ok I will see that it gets uploaded today....do you know how to upload something to launchpad?
<agoliveira> You mean via bzr?
<kwwii> I mean the first time you upload a package
<kwwii> I guess with bzr or such, no idea, never done it :-)
<agoliveira> kwwii: The usual way is via sponsorship but as in this case is a new package I guess the things are a bit different. Mithrandir can explaing you better.
<agoliveira> Mithrandir: BTW, could you ping me back when you have a few minutes? Thanks.
<Mithrandir> agoliveira: hi
<Mithrandir> sodarock_home: sure, can do that
<agoliveira> Mithrandir: Hello. Feeling better?
<Mithrandir> yes, much so, thanks.
<agoliveira> Mithrandir: Cool. Yesterday Matt asked me to ask you if you have a timeline for the lpia build (I'm preparing a status report update for him). Do you?
<Mithrandir> give me ten minutes and I can give you an estimate, I've spent most of today catching up from the last two days.
<agoliveira> Mithrandir: No problem. Also, can you see to upload galculator and evince? bugs 138725 and 140845. I asked Daniel but he seens to be afk.
<Mithrandir> agoliveira: best case would be Monday, fairly sure it can happen by next Thursday.
<agoliveira> Mithrandir: Thanks. I'll add that.
<Mithrandir> agoliveira: I'm on my way home now, sorry I didn't get around to getting galculator and evince uploaded.  Can you prod them about them tomorrow if dholbach doesn't get around to them first?
<Mithrandir> agoliveira: also, if you could send out the meeting reminder for me today, that'd be swell.
<agoliveira> Mithrandir: No problem (2 acounts :) )
<Mithrandir> excellent, thanks.
<agoliveira> Mithrandir: Bye
* Mithrandir hugs Adilson and runs into the rain
<agoliveira> Mithrandir: Rain getting out of a flu doesn't strike me as a good move :(
<dholbach> agoliveira: did you file sponsoring bugs for those two?
<agoliveira> dholbach: Yes, https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/galculator/+bug/138725 and https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/evince/+bug/140845
<dholbach> agoliveira: ubuntu-universe-sponsors is not subscribed and ubuntu-main-sponsors not on the other one
<dholbach> agoliveira: that way they don't get sponsored
<agoliveira> dholbach: Damn... I knew I was forgetting something. You'r right, of course.
<agoliveira> dholbach: Done. Better late than never.
<dholbach> agoliveira: can you set a different encoding on the galculator patch?
<dholbach> http://launchpadlibrarian.net/9351646/diff
<dholbach> ok changed it myself
<agoliveira> dholbach: That's weird... I didn't do anything different but run debdiff
<dholbach> yeah, but you have to set the content type in launchpad
<agoliveira> What could have caused this?
<agoliveira> dholbach: That's new to me.
<dholbach> well, I just set it to text/plain from text/html
<agoliveira> dholbach: In what moment I should do this?
<dholbach> I dunno, I just changed it by clicking on the (edit) link
<agoliveira> dholbach: Funny thing is that's the only one. Perhaps I forgot to mark the "this attachment is a patch" option.
<dholbach> right, probably that was it
<agoliveira> dholbach: Well, I would be surprised if it was gone all right in the first try :)
<agoliveira> dholbach: So, how do they look like? Better than the previous I hope...
<dholbach> agoliveira: I'm doing a bunch of other things atm, not checked it yet
<agoliveira> dholbach: Oh, fine. No problem, I just thought you had. Let me know when you do, please.
<dholbach> will do
<agoliveira> Thanks.
* agoliveira is suffering from post-lunch depresion combined with sleep hours so don't mind if I'm a bit slow this afternoon :)
<agoliveira> s/sleep/few sleep
<agoliveira> (see what I mean?)
<ian_brasil> even better is 'little sleep' ...few sleep does not exist!
<agoliveira> ian_brasil: The better (or worse) part of it is that I know that :)
* agoliveira will be back in 10
<ian_brasil> agoliveira: you need a lie down 
<kwwii> agoliveira: pushing an early version of the theme now
<agoliveira> ian_brasil: ...or industrial quantities of coffee the way you know we do here ;)
<agoliveira> kwwii: Cool :)
<ian_brasil> agoliveira: caramba, be careful...drinking too much of this stuff makes me shake like an epileptic
<agoliveira> ian_brasil: It's not our fault if you're grown as a sissy tea drinker :-D
<ian_brasil> damn, i've been outed
<agoliveira> ian_brasil: Don't worry. A few more years here will cure you or you can try the Santo Daime around there for a quick fix ;)
<ian_brasil> agoliveira: ha ha...too late , i am already cured of all known western illnesses (apart from laziness , obviously)
<agoliveira> ian_brasil: That's something that the Manaus weather won't help you to cure, that's for sure...
* ian_brasil yawns
<HappyCamp> Mithrandir, thanks for picking up image-creator!
<smagoun> HappyCamp: Thanks for the load/save features in the new MIC. I've tested here + it seems to do exactly what we want!
<HappyCamp> smagoun, Glad to hear it works :)  That is always a good feeling.  I don't get that feeling often ;)
<smagoun> Now if only there were a "load project" button in the gui for the lazy people here... :) Maybe I can whip that up this afternoon
<HappyCamp> smagoun, Feel free.  We appreciate contributions.
<agoliveira> HappyCamp: Hi. Have a minute?
<HappyCamp> agoliveira, sure
<agoliveira> HappyCamp: Nice. How's the MOTU process going?
<HappyCamp> agoliveira, not as good as I should be :(
<HappyCamp> I need to get my guys to give me stuff to commit.  I sent an email out and none of my guys responded :(
<agoliveira> HappyCamp: Actually that's a part of my question. I need to know how's the level of integration between Intel's code and Ubuntu. How's the movement to include this code into Gutsy.
<HappyCamp> I think we want to, I just haven't gotten very much movement yet from my guys.  I need to bug them more.
<agoliveira> HappyCamp: hold on a sec, please, door bell...
* agoliveira is back
<agoliveira> HappyCamp: We really need to improve this. Our time is running *very* short. Can you please poke the people there really hard?
<agoliveira> (in the eye, if possible) :)
<HappyCamp> agoliveira, I will do that.  Also feel free to post to dev@moblin.org to bug them too.
<agoliveira> HappyCamp: Good idea. I will.
<agoliveira> kinik: Hi Gary. Is Kyle around? He asked for me but I was in a meeting.
<kinik> Hi Adilson, he actually left the office just a few minutes ago.  He wasn't feeling well.
<kinik> agoliveira: I'll let him know that you checked back.
<agoliveira> kinik: I'm about to leave so tell him please that he can email me or poke me tomorrow morning.
<kinik> agoliveira: Will do, have a good night.
<agoliveira> kinik: Thanks. You too.
<Mithrandir> HappyCamp: happy to help
#ubuntu-mobile 2007-09-20
<HappyCamp> Mithrandir, If possible I would like to work with you on getting moblin-applets into gutsy.
<HappyCamp> Probably tomorrow, from the time I am sending this message.  I will be in early tomorrow.
<packman86> hey
<packman86> anybody there?
<dholbach> good morning
<Peter_u2> hello kwwii, you around?
<dholbach> Peter_u2: he might still be sleeping, it's 7:40 in germany
<kwwii> Peter_u2: yepp, got up early today
<kwwii> hi dholbach :-)
<dholbach> wow... early bird :-)
<Peter_u2> Thanks dholbach.:)
<Peter_u2> Cool kwwi. 
<kwwii> just read your email
<Peter_u2> your comments?
<kwwii> I missed the arrows and eject icons...they should naturally be in the icon theme under actions
<Peter_u2> Yes, I agree.
<kwwii> all the other little arrows do belong in it though as they are normally in the widget theme and not in the icon theme
<Peter_u2> You mean the arrows belong to icon theme, right?
<kwwii> nope, I mean that the little arrows on the scrollbar (for instance) do belong in the widget theme, not in the icon theme
<kwwii> basically the ones that DO belong in the icon theme are the back/fore buttons for the browser and the eject symbol
<Peter_u2> Ah, yes. 
<Peter_u2> Do you agree what I described in item 13?
<Peter_u2> on how to figure out pieces.
<kwwii> Peter_u2: yes, I agree (that will be the ugly part)
<kwwii> Peter_u2: from looking at it I think that we can remove a lot of the pieces
<kwwii> Peter_u2: I guess my job is to help create the new png file
<kwwii> Peter_u2: my suggestion would be to identify the pieces we do not use...I would then first simply put a bright green piece over those parts in the png file to test that they are not used anywhere
<kwwii> Peter_u2: once we know exactly which parts we do need, we can reorder the template layout and png
<kwwii> Peter_u2: one question, when you installed the theme, did you install it from the .deb package or did you do it manually by running make install?
<Peter_u2> kwwii, sorry for late response. Some network error. I come back now. Kwwi, I will give a list by end of Friday.
<kwwii> Peter_u2: excellent, I can start editing the png file as soon as we have that
<Peter_u2> Bad wireless. I run from source code. Ah, I know, you install by apt-get install. I believe it's due to incorrect dependency setting in debian control. 
<Peter_u2> kwwii, ping, sorry. bad wireless network.
<kwwii> Peter_u2: no worries :-)
<kwwii> Peter_u2: cool, I'll do it via the makefile then
<Peter_u2> kwwii, good.
* kwwii gets breakfast
<Peter_u2> kwwii, have a good day
<heno> I've written up a UME test case: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Testing/Cases/UMEdesktop could someone with mobile experience check it for sanity and fill i a few blanks?
<heno> Also, what is the best way to install a test environment on a PC? Is there a wiki page about that?
<heno> I'd like to add a guide here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Testing/Cases/UMEinstall
<amitk> heno: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileAndEmbedded/HildonDesktopManualProcedure
<heno> amitk: thanks!
<amitk> and https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileAndEmbedded/CreatingAnImageForUMEDevice
<amitk> heno: the guide looks like a good start
<heno> amitk: thanks. I've marked some obvious blanks in [bold] 
<amitk> heno: Perhaps there should be a section about configuring 'connectivity'?
<heno> amitk: yes, I might leave that for https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Testing/Cases/UMEhardware where I plan to test bluetooth, wireless, etc
<heno> although if there is an NM equiv, I should cover that
<amitk> ok
<kwwii> erm, does anyone know how to change the layout of the keyboard?
<kwwii> I am using an external keyboard and it is driving me crazy having to use the english layout
<agoliveira> kwwii: You're american, you're supposed to use it :)
<kwwii> agoliveira: grrrrr
<kwwii> tell that to my keyboard
<ian_brasil> kwwii: https://garage.maemo.org/projects/maemo-xkb-plugi/
<kwwii> I spend half the time typing and half the time poking around to figure out where the right eky is
<kwwii> ian_brasil: thanks, I'll check that out
<kwwii> dholbach: when you get a chance, I need to talk to you about including the new theme package in our build system and setting it as default, etc
<agoliveira> kwwii: Ok, seriously, I didn't try myself but you could try xkbmap or xmodmap
<agoliveira> kwwii: ...or the link that Ian just sent :)
<kwwii> agoliveira: right, if I only remebered how to edit them :p
<dholbach> kwwii: build system?
<kwwii> dholbach: well, I have a theme package (taken directly from the nokia stuff) and we need to see that it gets built and that it is set as default for mobile
<dholbach> kwwii: *phew* I have no idea how to do that
<dholbach> kwwii: I can help you with the packaging, but I don't have a mobile environment or something like that
<dholbach> so I wouldn't know which bits to change in which way
<kwwii> agoliveira: any idea on that?
<kwwii> in any case, we should discuss this tonight at the meeting
<Mithrandir> kwwii: just run setxkbmap de in a terminal.
<kwwii> Mithrandir: excellent! thanks :-)
<kwwii> you just saved me soooo much time
<agoliveira> kwwii: Sorry, idea on the keyboard or packaging? I missed the thread.
<Mithrandir> (or uk, or jp or whatever you want, of course. :-)
<kwwii> agoliveira: on the packaging 
<agoliveira> kwwii, dholbach: An lpia chrrot won't help there?
<agoliveira> or chroot into the target image created by image-builder
<dholbach> I'd prefer to not have to set up image builder or stuff to make changes on that
<kwwii> I have no idea...I've pinged Peter_u2 and others per mail...let's see what comes out of it in the meeting tonight
* kwwii has to run to the store before the meeting starts...bbl
<agoliveira> kwwii: Yep. Add that as an agenda item.
<kyleN> by the way, I was out on vacation for a week, but I've been thinking about mobile help requirements
<kyleN> one thing I've thought is that Yelp switches focus from the app some that could be confusing to the "soccer mom" target user
<kyleN> a new help browser that rolls out and takes half screen, maybe with a translucent-to-opaque background, that isn't modal but stays on top would be a nice solution
<kyleN> xml content, possibly xslt'd at build time to customize versions...
<kyleN> probably no need for xslt transform at run time though.. why bother if its already xhtml?
<HappyCamp> Mithrandir, ping?
<kyleN> so if anyone has thoughts on this matter, please email me.
<Mithrandir> HappyCamp: hiya
<Mithrandir> HappyCamp: afk for some food, but I'm generally around
<HappyCamp> Hi, good evening.
<ian_brasil> kyleN: maybe write a mozilla XPCOM component app?? 
<HappyCamp> Okay.  I had a request from one of our guys.  ToddBrandt wants us to get moblin-applets into the repository.  Mithrandir 
<HappyCamp> I mean into Gutsy
<HappyCamp> Off topic.  Anybody found a cheaper yet close in hotel than Hotel @ MIT?  $229.00 + tax, seems like a lot of money.  I will have to sweet talk my management.
<kyleN> ian_brasil, I'm trying to chat with you offline so I can undertand your idea better
<HappyCamp> Though I guess for the people from Europe it is no problem.  Dollar at new low against Euro: http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/09/20/dollar.euro.ap/index.html
<ian_brasil> kyleN: welcome to the proxy from hell..we are being routed through a machine in argentina so i think personal chats are out ...i will mail you 
<kyleN> ian_brasil. OK - thanks
<HappyCamp> agoliveira_lunch, When you get back from lunch.  Lets chat about the packages that need to get into Gutsy.
<Mithrandir> HappyCamp: dollar at a new low against CAD. :-P
<HappyCamp> Mithrandir, Nice for you, sucks for us, unless I'm selling stuff :(
<Mithrandir> indeed.
<Mithrandir> 5.62 NOK to a USD, down from 9 less than ten years ago, iirc.
<agoliveira> HappyCamp: Hi. About the hotel, maybe our chaps @ Papper can help but IIRC, this is around the usual values around there and about the packages, what can I do to help?
<agoliveira> s/Papper/Pepper
* agoliveira is suffering with post-lunch dumbness...
<agoliveira> need... coffee... fast...
<Sciri> agoliveira/HappyCamp: I'm not up on the hotel rates but if you ping Mary Ellen or Len they should be able to point you at some favorites. Although if all else fails there's always Boston Hostel for $27.99 a night. ;) http://www.bostonhostel.org/reservations.shtml
<Mithrandir> asac,agoliveira,kwwii,amitk: Present for the meeting?
<agoliveira> Mithrandir: Indeed.
<Charliefjohnson> Charlie & Don from Intel UMG are on.
<amitk> Mithrandir: here
<Mithrandir> hi Carl
<cwong1> hi
<ToddBrandtClone> I'm here, still working on my status update, will send in a few minutes
<kwwii> hi
<HappyCamp> I'm here for the meeting.  Sorry I'm late.
<kwwii> I cannot stay for very long though...perhaps we can discuss the themeing earlier rather than later?
<Mithrandir> kwwii: sure, we can sneak it in at the beginning?
<kwwii> sounds good
<HappyCamp> What's the email address to send the status reports to??
<Charliefjohnson> Mithrandir: Are collecting agenda items ??  I'd like to add a schedule update.
<Mithrandir> ubuntu-mobile@lists.ubuntu.com
<Mithrandir> Charliefjohnson: yes, I am
<HappyCamp> thanks!
<Mithrandir> hi Mauri
<Mithrandir> is Peter joining us too?
<mawahlen> Good Morning
<mawahlen> I believe Peter should be here, I'll go see
<kwwii> my guess is that it is way too late for Peter_u2
<Mithrandir> I was thinking the other Peter
<mawahlen> It's a different Peter, Peter Tung who is a manager for our embedded broup
<cwong1> peter will be joining shortly
<kwwii> well, if we are going to discuss themeing we really would need Peter_u2 and bspencer
<mdz> morning folks
<Mithrandir> Bob's on a plane today, so he won't be in attendance.
<Mithrandir> hiya mdz
<kwwii> then I guess I can just give a status report on the themeing and we can work out the other stuff when we talk to everyone
<HappyCamp> beginmeeting?? :)
<asac> Mithrandir: here
<Mithrandir> yeah, we'll start now.
<Mithrandir> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 15:55. The chair is Mithrandir.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC] , [IDEA] , [ACTION] , [AGREED] , [LINK] , [VOTE] 
<ptung1> Peter is here
<Mithrandir> hiya Peter
<mawahlen> Is Rusty around?  He was also travelling
<ptung1> Rusty went to Seattle today to meet with a customer
<Mithrandir> his IRC client is, but it appears idle.
<Mithrandir> kwwii has requested that we start with the theming, since he needs to leave early.
<Mithrandir> [TOPIC]  Theming
<MootBot> New Topic:  Theming 
<Mithrandir> kwwii: shoot
<kwwii> so...here is where we are:
<kwwii> I have put a theme on launchpad based on the existing nokia theme stuff
<kwwii> Peter_u2 made a list of the graphics we really need and the ones we do not
<kwwii> we need to get his stuff into some kind of package which is selected as default and installable at least at build time so that I can start tweaking and testing
<kwwii> for the time being we can use the theme that I have put on launchpad, it is black and orange and at least partially what we want
<kwwii> basically it has way too many pic
<kwwii> s
<Mithrandir> what's the reason we can't use the same build system Nokia uses for their themes?
<kwwii> Mithrandir: we can use their stuff, I guess but I really have no idea about that
<kwwii> it builds fine, but is uninstallable as a deb because of some dependency
<kwwii> so for now doing make and make install will install it
<Mithrandir> hm, ok, we need to get it into a package ASAP.
<Mithrandir> agoliveira: any chance you could do that?
<kwwii> but the themeing that we have in now is just a hack (pics that were simply copied over)
<agoliveira> Yes, I can take a look.
<Mithrandir> ok
<kwwii> if someone takes the stuff that I have on launchpad and sees that it works as default we can start from there
<Mithrandir> [ACTION]  agoliveira to investigate packaging of Ubuntu theme from what's on Launchpad
<MootBot> ACTION received:  agoliveira to investigate packaging of Ubuntu theme from what's on Launchpad 
<agoliveira> kwwii: Let's talk privately later (or tomorrow) so I can speed it up ok?
<kwwii> after that we need to merge Peter_u2's changes so that we reduce the extra work
<kwwii> agoliveira: sounds good
<agoliveira> Deal.
<Mithrandir> absolutely, less work is always good :-)
<Mithrandir> moving on?
<Mithrandir> [TOPIC]  Action items from last meeting
<kwwii> well, aside from that we need to get the icon theme going as well
<MootBot> New Topic:  Action items from last meeting 
<kwwii> but that is all from me
<Mithrandir> http://kryten.incognitus.net/mootbot/meetings/ubuntu-mobile.20070913_1554.html has the previous set of action items.
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://kryten.incognitus.net/mootbot/meetings/ubuntu-mobile.20070913_1554.html has the previous set of action items. 
<mawahlen> Note - Peter Zhu is on vacation now so please make sure to include Bob on any items related to themes
<Mithrandir> mawahlen: ok, thanks.
<Mithrandir> Charliefjohnson: you were to follow up with Steve wrt EXA 2.1 patch
<Mithrandir> Charliefjohnson: what's the state of that?
<Charliefjohnson> We're still discussing. I have a round of emails from Bryce that I have fully digested.
<Charliefjohnson> have NOT fully digested!
<smagoun> Charliefjohnson, what's the ETA on a decision?
<Charliefjohnson> smagoun: Were you on that last Bryce email ??  I didn't check.
<Charliefjohnson> Also the problem goes away if we rebase on Hardy Heron.
<smagoun> I haven't received any mail from you or Bryce, other than one that said Alan H. had an unspecified problem with the patch.
<Charliefjohnson> I'll forward it.  And also put it on the ubuntu-mobile list.
<smagoun> thanks
<Mithrandir> Charliefjohnson: mind if I give you an action item so we see this through to its conclusion?
<Charliefjohnson> That's fine.  
<Mithrandir> [ACTION]  Charlie to continue following up psb/EXA 2.1 patch with Steve and Bryce
<MootBot> ACTION received:  Charlie to continue following up psb/EXA 2.1 patch with Steve and Bryce 
<Mithrandir> ToddBrandtClone: you were to investigate dbus for gconf, what do you have to report?
<ToddBrandtClone> well, as I understand it, gconf 2.6 and greater has dbus bindings added
<ToddBrandtClone> ubuntu gutsy uses 2.1
<ToddBrandtClone> so we're still corba based
<ToddBrandtClone> So we can try to upgrade to 2.6 but I don't know what the implications are
<Mithrandir> libgconf seems to be in sync with the gnome version, which means we're at 2.20
<ToddBrandtClone> on gutsy?
<ToddBrandtClone> hmm, maybe they just didn't update the version number in the documentation
<Mithrandir>     gconf2 | 2.20.0-0ubuntu1 |         gutsy | source, amd64, i386, powerpc
<ToddBrandtClone> well there you have it, ok but I don't see any dbus bindings for gconf in the target, as far as I can tell it just uses corba
<Mithrandir> but gconftool isn't linked against libdbus, just libORBit, so.
<Mithrandir> yes, but you were going to check out the feasability of switching it to using dbus?
<ToddBrandtClone> ok, I still must not understand what Bob wanted with this one
<ToddBrandtClone> I'll ping him offline and we'll resolve this
<Mithrandir> [ACTION]  ToddBrandt to talk with bspencer about gconf and dbus and report back
<MootBot> ACTION received:  ToddBrandt to talk with bspencer about gconf and dbus and report back 
<Mithrandir> I was to get mobile-application-service removed from the archive, that's done as of today.
<Mithrandir> bfiller_,rustyl and bob were to work out the event mechanism in mobile-basic-flash
<Mithrandir> bfiller_: you around and can comment on that?
<bfiller_> yes
<bfiller_> we made some good progress on some of the issues
<bfiller_> comments are all posted on ubuntu-mobile list
<bfiller_> I'm working on a patch that implements some of the proposed changes and will be sending to Bob within the next couple of days
<Mithrandir> ok, sounds good.
<bfiller_> Bob made a bunch of changes too and his stuff is checked in
<Mithrandir> I was to raise scheduling and freezes on the mailing list, something I failed to do due to a bit of flu.  There's an agenda item for it later on, so I suspect I'll take an action item then.
<bfiller_> some of the issues are still ongoing, and we'll need to continue a dialog to come up with a solution
<Mithrandir> sure.
<Mithrandir> amitk: you were to work out how to work around such problems as we've been having with unionfs
<Mithrandir> have you had a chance to talk with the relevant people, etc?
<amitk> Mithrandir: yes
<amitk> the only solution is testing. I am afraid if that sounds like a cliche
<amitk> on the other hand with save/restore functionality in m-i-c, it shouldn't happen too often
<Mithrandir> it'll still break dailies, though.
<Charliefjohnson> amitk: Is there an update?  FYI - This daily build breakage is very visible.
<amitk> Charliefjohnson: the fix is working in internal testing
<Charliefjohnson> amitk:Is there an ETA?
<amitk> there is a kernel upload going on as we speak.
<Mithrandir> I'll be testing (and fixing, if possible) any problems with tomorrow's dailies.
<Charliefjohnson> Mithrandir: On your Crown Beach?
<amitk> Charliefjohnson: The daily build breakage was unrelated...
<Mithrandir> Charliefjohnson: on my crown beach and on my Q1, yes.
<Mithrandir> amitk: the dailies have been useless due to the unionfs problem, though.
<amitk> Charliefjohnson: same here
<Charliefjohnson> amitk:  There's the fact that the daily builds weren't occuring and then the fact that they won't install.  Yes different issues.
<Mithrandir> I failed to send Charlie an updated list of licences, so I'll take that as a new action item.
<Mithrandir> [ACTION]  tfheen to send CharliefJohnson updated list of licences for UME components.
<MootBot> ACTION received:  tfheen to send CharliefJohnson updated list of licences for UME components. 
<Charliefjohnson> mdz: sent it to us yesterday.
<Mithrandir> oh, the complete list?  Good.
<Mithrandir> agoliveira: you were to update the wiki with which applications have been chosen, this is done now, right?
<agoliveira> Yes, with Charliefjohnson's help I might add.
<Mithrandir> thanks
<Charliefjohnson> Mithrandir: I think it was the complete list.  I can't really know.
<Charliefjohnson> agoliveira: Yes I now know how to do Wiki tables.
<Mithrandir> Charliefjohnson: well, we'll be wanting to send it to you periodically, I suspect, so.
<Mithrandir> hm, I guess I could extract it as part of the image build process..
<Mithrandir> moving on
<Mithrandir> [TOPIC]  Status reports
<MootBot> New Topic:  Status reports 
<Mithrandir> mawahlen: can you give us an update on Bob's specs, or haven't he given anything to you?
<mawahlen> I haven't seen anything from Bob, I'll check on it
<Mithrandir> ok, he's travelling, but it would then be good if he had sent it out last week.
<mawahlen> Mithrandir: just so I make sure, are you talking about the status?
<Mithrandir> mawahlen: yes, the current status of the mobile UI and the media player.
<mawahlen> I'll chat with him today
<Mithrandir> thanks.
<Mithrandir> Charliefjohnson: we got the graphics update from you, but I didn't see anything about the USB client or the hardware decode bits, can you give us an update on those?
<Charliefjohnson> mawahlen: If Bob knows he's going to miss the IRC meeting, can we make sure that status update occurs or someone is designated to represent?  
<mawahlen> Charliefjohnson: yes, that is true
<Charliefjohnson> Mithrandir:  I sent them a reminder yesterday.  But didn't get an update.  Unfortunately - those teams don't actively participate here.  
<Mithrandir> ok. :-/  If you could prod them again, that'd be good.
<Charliefjohnson> Mithrandir: I'll nag them again.
<Mithrandir> thanks
<Mithrandir> Peter_u2 isn't around, but do we have anybody present who could give an update on mobile-chat?
<Mithrandir> oh well, nobody, it seems.
* agoliveira yawns :)
<Mithrandir> Peter_u2: if you could send a status update to the list, that'd be welcome.
<Mithrandir> [TOPIC]  moblin.org -> UME syncing, status?
<MootBot> New Topic:  moblin.org -> UME syncing, status? 
<Mithrandir> HappyCamp: how's the flow of new and updated packages going?
<Mithrandir> does the process work for you?
<HappyCamp> ToddBrandt wants me to get moblin-applets into UME
<mawahlen> For Chat - here is the status Peter left me
<mawahlen> For chat, I'll continue working on wireframe UI and EDS and voip integration after vacation. Empathy maintainer is taking a detailed look at my code. But he suggests having this hildon branch hosted in moblin. This is not surprise. Most of applications of hildonization from gnome/gtk are hosted in garage.maemo.org like pidgin-hildon. I'll continue delivering bug fixes and some common...
<mawahlen> ...features improvements to Empathy as usual. And I will continue merging upstream Empathy improvements as well. 
<HappyCamp> Nobody else has asked.  So I was hoping to work with Mithrandir today to get moblin-applets in.
<HappyCamp> I will bug the rest of our guys.
<HappyCamp> Question though.  Do you want everything pushed into Gutsy?  Everything that we have on Moblin.org?
<ToddBrandtClone> Mithrandir/HappyCamp: let me know if there's anything I can provide to help with this process
<Mithrandir> HappyCamp: it's probably useful if you go around and nab their code and push it in, so we have a good flow going.
<HappyCamp> If so, I will bother more people.
<HappyCamp> Okay.  I can just go ahead and take their code and work with you.
<Mithrandir> HappyCamp: in my ideal world, you would not need to host stuff on moblin.org at all.
<Charliefjohnson> mawahlen: I'm confused.  Is UME going to use the MOBLIN chat?  I thought UME had a different chat chosen?  
<HappyCamp> Or if there are other MOTUs I can work with, let me know.
<Mithrandir> HappyCamp: are there particular pieces of code you are concerned about?
<HappyCamp> Mithrandir, that would be fine with me personally.  Though I am not in charge and don't know all the great reasons we have for hosting stuff on moblin.org.
<asac> Mithrandir: HappyCamp: if you are short of reviewers/sponsors, I could help out i guess.
<HappyCamp> I can be the team mushroom at times. 
<HappyCamp> Kept in the dark, fed b*#l sh*t ;)
<HappyCamp> asac, Okay.  Let me know if there are any particular packages you prefer to approve.  Can do that offline.
<Mithrandir> asac: if you could help HappyCamp, that'd be very helpful, yes.
<mawahlen> Mithrandir: you'll have to answer the question on what chat application you intend to you.  I know you took Peter's code.  
<asac> HappyCamp: i prefer to be a more or less dedicated sponsor for some packages ... instead of random ones ... i suggest to just start and i say stop when i have enough :)
<agoliveira> Charliefjohnson: IFIAK, it's the moblin-chat, yes, at least at least for now.
<Mithrandir> mawahlen: yes, I'll follow up on that email.
<agoliveira> Charliefjohnson: Sorry, I didn't see you ask mawahlen directly.
<HappyCamp> asac, okay.
<asac> HappyCamp: if you have a package to review/sponsor, just ping me
<Charliefjohnson> agoliveira: OK.  The fog is clearing.
<Mithrandir> oh, sorry, yes, we're taking moblin-chat, which is basically empathy + hildon patches
<Mithrandir> and that's going to be the chat client of choice for UME
<Mithrandir> Charliefjohnson: how are your teams doing wrt getting code ready to put into Ubuntu?
<Charliefjohnson> Mithrandir:  I assume you're talking about graphics, video decode, etc ?
<Mithrandir> Charliefjohnson: correct.
<Charliefjohnson> Mithrandir:  The way it has been working is that these team drop a "reference" driver then between myself and Mauri's folks and the relavant Canonical maintainer, we package it into Moblin and UME.
<Charliefjohnson> Mithrandir:  One discussion that needs to occur is how to handle the closed source pieces.  Since I had have had a drop any of that yet, I haven't worked it out.  
<Charliefjohnson> Mithrandir: Who's the right Canonical person to start discussing this with?
<Mithrandir> probably the relevant maintainer, again.
<Mithrandir> it'll have to go to restricted or multiverse as appropriate, but that's something you know
<Charliefjohnson> Mithrandir: Bryce for graphics.  It's been helpful that he is in the same timezone.
<Mithrandir> I can imagine.
<Mithrandir> if you start out by fleshing out a process with Bryce, that's probably good and we can use the same one for other components as appropriate.
<Mithrandir> moving on?
<Mithrandir> [TOPIC]  Schedule update
<MootBot> New Topic:  Schedule update 
<Mithrandir> Charliefjohnson: your agenda item
<Charliefjohnson> Have you incorrporated the intermediate builds we've requested into the schedule yet?
<Charliefjohnson> Mithrandir: When can you re-publish?
<jpan_laptop> Charliefjohnson , FYI we had a process between Bryce, Waldo, and Calvin w.r.t. graphics and libva. i will send you a link
<Mithrandir> Charliefjohnson: early next week, this week has mostly gone down the drain due to being sick.
<Charliefjohnson> Mithrandir:  Commit to a specific day?
<Mithrandir> end of my Tuesday?
<Don_Johnson> The current schedule shows a BetaFreeze today (Sept 20th). It does not sound like that is happening.  When do we expect to do that Beta Freeze?
<Mithrandir> Don_Johnson: it's Ubuntu Beta Freeze, and that is happening.
<Don_Johnson> OK, thankyou
<Charliefjohnson> Mithrandir: Sep. 20 - Autobuilt images with flash?  (Complete?)
<Mithrandir> Charliefjohnson: no, not complete, delayed due to lpia images being late.
<Charliefjohnson> Mithrandir: Can you send out a marked up schedule ??  So we know where we are?
<Mithrandir> yes, I can do that with the updated one on Tuesday.
<Don_Johnson> OK, that should take care of it
<Mithrandir> any other business?
<Mithrandir> adjourned.
<Mithrandir> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 16:56.
<asac> thanks
<agoliveira> Yeay! Almost 1 hour :)
<HappyCamp> Wow, quick meeting.
<HappyCamp> I thought I was going to be able to brag about my save/load project feature in MIC ;)
* agoliveira runs for a coffee
<agoliveira> HappyCamp: Too late :)
<Mithrandir> HappyCamp: didn't you do that in the status report sent to the list?
<HappyCamp> I did 
<Mithrandir> good :-)
<HappyCamp> asac, I would like to work on getting moblin-applets into Gutsy.  What can I do to help you do that?  "Help me, help you" (Jerry Maguire quote)
<asac> HappyCamp: hehe :) ... what timezone are you in?
<HappyCamp> PDT, Oregon timezone.  Same timezone as California.
<HappyCamp> So it is 10:16 am right now.
<asac> HappyCamp: in general the best is to provide me a ready package
<asac> HappyCamp: you already have those applets as packages in moblin, right?
<HappyCamp> asac, Yep.
<HappyCamp> asac, http://www.moblin.org/build-results/projects/moblin-applets/
<asac> Mithrandir: whats the idea about bringing moblin packages into gutsy? do we want diff.gz orig.tar.gz?
<Mithrandir> asac: we've done .tar.gz so far.
<Mithrandir> since they don't do normal upstream releases as such
<asac> ok ... but they bump versioning properly?
<asac> i look at http://www.moblin.org/build-results/projects/moblin-applets/ ... its versioned 0.5
<HappyCamp> asac, is that wrong?  Is there a prefered versioning that we aren't using?
<asac> HappyCamp: nono ... its just important that you bump the version whenever you release.
<asac> but you probably do that ... otherwise moblin images won't receive an upgrade on dist-upgrade.
<HappyCamp> asac, We try to bump the version whenever it goes into Gutsy.  We have been doing that whenever Mithrandir pulls in Image Creator.
<HappyCamp> We are also planning on fixing our build system at Moblin.org so that we only build the package and put it into our apt repository when the person bumps the version.  Not yet done yet.  So any time a commit happens it gets built and put into the apt-repository.  Which is bad and we know it.
<HappyCamp> Kind of a homebrew build system that we made.
<HappyCamp> Or more precisely, that I made.
<asac> HappyCamp: ah ok ... that resolves my concerns.
<asac> separating debian/ dir and upstream source is not an option for you?
<HappyCamp> asac, What upstream source?
<HappyCamp> How would I go about separating?
<HappyCamp> Moblin applets is our very own package.  Some of the other packages that we have though are temporary (hopefully) forks.
<HappyCamp> So if there is something I need to do different, please let me know.  I am not a debian package guru, unfortunately :(
<bfiller_> HappyCamp, Mithrandir: can I bother either of you for a git question?
<HappyCamp> bfiller_, go ahead, I can try.
<bfiller_> I git-cloned mobile-basic-flash from moblin and have made and commited changes to my local clone.
<bfiller_> HappyCamp, now I want to diff and make a patch vs. what's upstream
<asac> ok ... its not a problem ... just uncommon :) ... usually one develops a software and then someone else builds a package on top of it ... which is why we usually talk about "upstream source" (a source release without debian/ dir) and the debian packaging source (usually shipped in a diff.gz)
<HappyCamp> asac, We have made them as native debian packages from the start.
<HappyCamp> bfiller_, git diff HEAD^
<asac> right
<amitk> does anyone know how to change touchscreen sensitivity on the samsung?
<bfiller_> HappyCamp, cool, I'll give it a try (thought it would be more complex :)
<asac> HappyCamp: we can start this way now. I am now almost done for today, so I can start tomorrow ... if you have more apps that need a sponsor, let me know.
<HappyCamp> The ^ means one before.
<bfiller_> HappyCamp, one before what?
<HappyCamp> asac, Okay.  Whatever I can do to help let me know.  I just bumped the version in our repository.  So it is 0.6 now and says UNRELEASED rather than feisty.
<HappyCamp> It should be built soon.
<HappyCamp> bfiller_, You can also do HEAD-1 = HEAD^  HEAD^^^ = HEAD-3 and so on.
<HappyCamp> bfiller_, one before the HEAD
<HappyCamp> That is what I meant by ^ means one before.
<bfiller_> HappyCamp, thanks for the help
<Mithrandir> bfiller_: git diff $sha1_of_where_you_branched_off..HEAD will give you that delta
<Charliefjohnson> Mithrandir: Are we done?
<bfiller_> Mithrandir, how do I figure out what the $sha1_of_where_you_branched from?
<bfiller_> Mithrandir, and I did a clone, not a branch if that matters
<amitk> bfiller_: 'git diff master' is what you want :)
<Mithrandir> Charliefjohnson: with the meeting?  About 40 minutes ago.
<bfiller_> amitk, ah, sound easy. That will give a diff of my latest vs. upstreams latest?
<Charliefjohnson> Mithrandir: I missed the #endmeeting.  Thanks.
<amitk> bfiller_: yes... to be precise, it will give you your _local_ changes made on top of _your_ copy of upstream
<bfiller_> amitk, I and update my  copy of upstream by doing git fetch, followed by git rebase origin, is that correct?
<amitk> bfiller_: that is correct
<bfiller_> amitk, great, thanks
<HappyCamp> asac, amitk or others.  Does anyone know an easy way to have debuild ignore the .git/ directory when building the source package?
<HappyCamp> I assume have to add something into debian/rules
<HappyCamp> Oh, on an unrelated note:  Intel announced http://www.lesswatts.org/  Which has info which should be useful to the mobile community.
<amitk> HappyCamp: just add it to the .gitignore file in the toplevel directory
<amitk> HappyCamp: nevermind... 
<HappyCamp> amitk, Huh?  Add the .git/ directory to the .gitignore file?
<HappyCamp> Okay, that confused me :)
<amitk> my answer was for git to ignore debuild :-p
<HappyCamp> LOL
<amitk> HappyCamp: I don't know the answer to your question.. 
* amitk points to Mithrandir
<HappyCamp> amitk, thanks for trying!  I appreciate it.
<HappyCamp> Maybe I'll try the scary channel known as #ubuntu  So much traffic there :(
<smagoun> Fewer! It should be "fewer watts," less is grammatically incorrect. </pedantry>
<asac> HappyCamp: i use dpkg-buildpackage -rfakeroot -i.git ... to ignore .git
<HappyCamp> asac, sweet thanks!
<asac> maybe -i is available for debuild as well
<HappyCamp> thanks.
<ToddBrandtClone> asac: FYI: I'm making a temporary fork of the network-manager source on moblin.org in order to try out some changes to nm-applet. I haven't decided if we actually want to create a separate version of nm-applet or maybe just add some changes that could be pushed upstream.
<asac> ToddBrandtClone: whats your idea?
<ToddBrandtClone> asac: the major change is that nm-applet for moblin needs to call the control panel applet "network configuration" via libosso. Is there any chance that we could make this small change and encapsulate it with a ./configure option and push it back to you?
<asac> ToddBrandtClone: you mean for "manual configuration ..." ?
<ToddBrandtClone> asac: yea
<ToddBrandtClone> asac: also we just want a temporary build environment where we can test out some GUI ideas
<asac> how do you invoke network configuration with libosso?
<asac> maybe there is a wrapper binary available, so you don't have to link against it?
<asac> what other gui ideas do you have?
<ToddBrandtClone> asac: there's a function in the hildon include files that calls a control panel applet directly, basically nm-applet would have to sync with libosso and call that function instead of spawning network-admin
<ToddBrandtClone> actually for other GUI ideas I don't have any specifically, there just may be some minor tweaks to make things fit on a small form factor
<asac> ToddBrandtClone: yes i understand that there is a lib function ... i wondered if there is a wrapper binary ... 
<ToddBrandtClone> asac: do you mean some executable that can be called which will spawn a control panel applet?
<asac> right ... the point is that allowing nm-applet to spawn other admin frontends is a valid feature that would even be suitable for upstream
<asac> while configure tweaks for libosso et al is pretty hacky
<ToddBrandtClone> asac: ahhhh, I understand now
<ToddBrandtClone> asac: I could create a wrapper binary easy
<asac> so basically we could add a test if this or that binary is available and then spawn that
<ToddBrandtClone> asac: sounds perfect
<asac> so we wouldn't need a configure switch for that
<ToddBrandtClone> asac: do you have the bandwidth to make that change in nm-applet? Or would you mind if I tried it?
<asac> feel free to try it.
<ToddBrandtClone> asac: ok, will do, thanks!
<asac> its probably best if the same person does the config launcher and the nm-applet integration
<asac> we can then take a look
<asac> on the other front ... if you have specific ideas on how to make nm-applet more suitable for small-form-factors let me know
<asac> though while looking at it the applet drop-down appears pretty well suited for touch screens et al.
<ToddBrandtClone> asac: yea, I honestly don't expect to change it, I just don't want to rule it out
<asac> ToddBrandtClone: i am pretty open to patch network-manager applet if you really need it
<asac> ToddBrandtClone: but at best thats not needed ;)
#ubuntu-mobile 2007-09-21
<scheater5> I've been in here and #ubuntu+1 asking about archos media players, but there's one question I haven't asked yet
<scheater5> Just how far along is embeddedubuntu
<scheater5> The wiki seems to suggest it's still in early stages of development
<mjg59> Fairly far along, but it's currently only aimed at x86
<scheater5> I thought that was Ubuntu mobile, and embeddedUbuntu was aimed at ARM
<mjg59> No, it's the same project
<mjg59> We currently don't support Arm
<scheater5> Ok, it's not that I don't believe you, but that's most definitely what the information out there says.  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/EmbeddedUbuntu 
<mjg59> scheater5: That's a spec for something else
<scheater5> Well that's what I'm inquiring about.  I am now all but certain the Archos media players are ARM-based, so my question is how far along is EmbededdedUbuntu
<mjg59> It looks like it consists of one wiki page
<mjg59> You'd have to contact the people who wrote it to see if they've done anything else
<scheater5> ic.  
<mjg59> I'm afraid it's nothing to do with UME
<scheater5> I figured they were separate projects, considering they are for separate architectures, but the official list of ubuntu irc channels says this channel is for "Ubuntu Mobile and Embedded development."  
<scheater5> If it seems like I'm grasping at straws here, I am.  Finding information about embedded linux systems has been proving quite the headache.  
<mjg59> Right. Ubuntu Mobile and Embedded is the project name of the distribution currently targetting mobile and embedded x86 platforms
<mjg59> Given sufficient demand or interest, that might branch out to ARM
<mjg59> It's unlikely that we'll be directly involved in porting the kernel to new platforms, though
<scheater5> Well, if I understand correctly, the kernel porting is long since done - the very media player I am talking about is based on linux, and Debian has an ARM port.  
<AaronL2> bspencer, sodarock:  was anything determined regarding the issue with the ubuntu-mobile package?
<AaronL2> just got back
<dholbach> good morning
<guardian> i just setup an ubuntu mobile image to run on a samsung q1 ultra. testing the image on my feisty workstation, i noticed there's an input method selector selector icon on the top right of the screen
<guardian> it enables me to select different virtual keyboards
<guardian> what's the input method framework being used please ?
<agoliveira> kwwii: Hi Ken. Do you want to talk about the themes now?
<kwwii> agoliveira: sure, I was trying to work on it a bit last night and simply got confused
<kwwii> agoliveira: if you look into the hildon-theme-tools package there is a script which sets up a basic package
<kwwii> hildon-theme-bootstrap
<agoliveira> kwwii: Fine.
<sodarock> asac: are you able to edit the ubuntu-mobile metapackage?
<kwwii> calling that asks you a few simple questions about which layout, name, place to install, etc. and then creates a basic package
<kwwii> at this time, we have no layout of our own...eventualy we will need to add our new layout to that tool
<kwwii> but for now, I have taken the package that it produces and added a template.png file and a wallpaper
<sodarock> agoliveira: are you able to edit the ubuntu-mobile metapackage?
<kwwii> after looking at what I put in launchpad it turns out that it is kinda nasty, as I already built the theme before I put it in bzr, which is a mistake - we need to remove that package and put a decent one up
<agoliveira> sodarock: Sorry, I don't have the power for that.
<asac> sodarock: i think i could, but would rather not do that ... is Mithrandir not available?
<sodarock> agoliveira: thanks
<sodarock> asac: He didn't respond to my pings, I'll try later, maybe it is lunch time.
<sodarock> I've got time.  I still haven't got out of bed yet.  7am here in Oregon.
<agoliveira> kwwii: Ok, let me get this straight. The hildon-theme-tools is fine, you just need a good package for it?
<asac> sodarock: good ;)
<sodarock> I will ping you later asac to work on getting moblin-applets in.  FYI I am also known as HappyCamp_
<kwwii> agoliveira: we need a good package from the theme package that it creates
<sodarock> sodarock: is my home nick.  probably uncessarily confusing :(
<agoliveira> kwwii: 
<agoliveira> kwwii: I see.
<kwwii> the hildon-theme-tools themselves are already in and work fine
<agoliveira> Ok, let me run this little guy here and see what comes out. I'll contact you later if I have any doubts.
<asac> sodarock: ah :) ... now i know who you are ;)
* sodarock wanders off to go get ready to go into work.
<kwwii> agoliveira: cool
<kwwii> agoliveira: I am heading out for while...bbl
<agoliveira> kwwii: Ok, I'm also going lunch in a few minutes.
<kwwii> bon appetit
<agoliveira> kwwii: It will be a microwave lazanha so we both know it's emergency food at best ;)
<agoliveira_lunch> but thanks any way ;)
<HappyCamp_> asac, if you are up for it, I'm ready to work with you on getting moblin-applets into Gutsy.
<asac> HappyCamp_: let me take a break for a few minutes :) i will come back to you
<HappyCamp_> asac, no problem
<agoliveira> kwwii: You there?
<kwwii> agoliveira: yepp, but I am eating dinner in a bit
<agoliveira> kwwii: If you're going to return, there's no rush, I have more things to do.
<kwwii> we can take care of it now
<kwwii> still waiting for my son to come home from his bike trip
<agoliveira> Ok. I was checking the hildon-theme-teste and, apart from a small dependencies change, it creates a valid package for what I've seem. What exactly you need to do from there?
<agoliveira> kwwii: err... hildon-theme-tools I emant
<agoliveira> meant
* agoliveira is still feeling some side-effects from the party last night :)
<kwwii> agoliveira: we need to get that theme in our build and see that it is set as default
<agoliveira> kwwii: You don't need to add anything to it?
<agoliveira> ...or change
<kwwii> agoliveira: actually, yes, I need to remove a lot of stuff first
<kwwii> but it will be a continual improvement process
<kwwii> we can wait until we set it as default the first time, but after that it should include any changes in the theme package when the stuff gets built again
<agoliveira> kwwii: Ok, I see no problems with the package itself but I have no upload privileges so we will need Tollef's help (or anyone's who can upload stuff).
<kwwii> agoliveira: cool :-)
<agoliveira> kwwii: I'll fix the dependency version problem with on the hildon-theme-tools package and see how to upload the first theme.
<kwwii> agoliveira: cool...the one thing I still need to do on the stuff I checked into launchpad is call a "make clean" on it (it now has all the many pixmaps in it which should be created at build time)
<agoliveira> kwwii: Sorry but I got a bit confuse now. Did you upload a theme package to LP or a modified theme-tools package?
<kwwii> agoliveira: I uploaded a theme package
<kwwii> agoliveira: we still need to upload a modified package but that will take some time
<agoliveira> kwwii: And you wan the changes there into the "official" package?
<agoliveira> kwwii: I'm asking because the changes there might requeire changes on the tools package.
<kwwii> agoliveira: yes, I thought we could update the existing themeing with what I have for now, and once we have the new layout and such done we can work on adding that later
<kwwii> we will not be changing the theme-tools, but rather the theme-layout
<kwwii> but we are at least a week away from that
<agoliveira> kwwii: Hmmm... it's that the theme-tools apps download the layout from somewhere (in this case maemo's repository) so this will have to change.
<kwwii> erm, right...didn't think about that
<kwwii> although, you have to have the layout already installed to create the theme package I thought
<kwwii> there is a package for hildon-theme-layout4 or such
<kwwii> we will be tweaking that, but we are not that far along yet
<kwwii> I have no idea what the theme-tools download from the maemo repo's though
<agoliveira> kwwii: Exactly. So, we have to think what to do in this case. I wonder if wouldn't be better if I modify the tools to use a local set of files that will deppend on a package (the theme package) so you could modify the theme files locally, build it with the tools and, once satisfied, upload it so it will be used as the theme by the UME itself and as a base for you.
<kwwii> agoliveira: that definitely sounds like the best idea - we will be tweaking this stuff for quite a while I think
<kwwii> in addition, and 3rd party vendors will want to do the same
<agoliveira> kwwii: Ok, I'll see to it.
<kwwii> agoliveira: sweet, thanks man
* agoliveira grabs the chains and the whip...
<agoliveira> kwwii: No problem :)
<AaronL2> kwwii:  still there, bspencer suggested that I talk to you regarding issues with icon themes and gtk
<AaronL2> I mean, still there?
<AaronL2> also, does anyone know if the issue with ubuntu-mobile and the incorrect dependency has been fixed?
<Mithrandir> yes, it was fixed some hours ago
<AaronL2> Mithrandir:  thanks
<AaronL2> hi, anyone here familiar with XSETTINGS and GTK?
<AaronL2> I mean, as XSETTINGS is used by GTK
<HappyCamp_> agoliveira, Do you know off the top of your head, how to build a debian package as lpia on an i386 based system?
* HappyCamp_ wonders if asac forget about poor little old HappyCamp_
<agoliveira> HappyCamp_: You make a lpia chroot.
<HappyCamp_> Ah, with pbuilder :)
<HappyCamp_> Now I remember, I think somebody said that to me when we were in Boston.
<agoliveira> HappyCamp_: Glad to help :)
<HappyCamp_> Now I just got to go dig through pbuilder info.  Thanks agoliveira 
<agoliveira> HappyCamp_: or debootstrap directly.
<HappyCamp_> agoliveira, I just figured the debootstrap part out :)  Now I have to figure out if I can just say --arch=lpia
<agoliveira> HappyCamp_:  sudo debootstrap --arch lpia gutsy your_dir_goes_here http://ports.ubuntu.com/ should do the trick
<HappyCamp_> agoliveira, sweet thanks :)
<agoliveira> HappyCamp_: My pleasure!
<Mithrandir> you don't need the ports.ubuntu.com bit
<asac> HappyCamp_: can i just clone your git branch to review? have you set tags?
<agoliveira> Mithrandir: Interesting. I didn't knew that.
* agoliveira just sees that the <mirror> parameter on debootstrap is optional.
<Mithrandir> yes, and it's smart enough to know that gutsy/i386 lives somewhere else than lenny/amd64
* agoliveira thinks that those tools are growing too smart already :)
<agoliveira> Talking about smart tools: http://www.technologyreview.com/player/07/09/19Greene/1.aspx
<asac_> HappyCamp_: i was off ... if you said anything, please paste again
<kwwii> seb128: ping?
<seb128> kwwii: hi
<AaronL2> seb128:  Hi, I've been chatting with kwwii regarding problems with icon themes and GTK
<kwwii> seb128: do you understand how xsettings works?
<AaronL2> I'm probably going to send an e-mail about this to ubuntu-mobile, it seems that an additional component, the xsettings manager, is necessary, for this to work
<seb128> kwwii: not the details but I've somewhat, why?
<AaronL2> kwwii:  would you like me to describe the issue?
<AaronL2> seb128:  not sure what happened, but I can describe the problem.  I've been porting the maemo VNC viewer project to MIDs, and I use one of the icons from the hildon icon theme.  Unfortunately, it doesn't display, and instead, the missing icon icon displays.
<AaronL2> seb128:  I dug into the GTK/GDK code, and the code for icon themes is primarily implemented in gtkicontheme.c.
<AaronL2> It will typically only load at most three icon themes, the main icon theme, the fallback icon theme, and the default icon theme.  The default is always hicolor.
<seb128> right
<AaronL2> It tries to get the main and fallback icon themes from the xsettings manager--this code is in gdk/x11/xsettings-client.c
<AaronL2> The XSETTINGS manager is actually a separate window--it queries the window using an X atom.
<AaronL2> there are various XSETTINGS settings, including the main icon theme and the fallback icon theme.
<AaronL2> of course, on MIDs, there is no XSETTINGS manager window
<AaronL2> so, it falls back to "hicolor" for the main theme and NULL for the fallback theme.
<AaronL2> it will also add any icon themes that are inherited by the hicolor icon theme (as declared in its index.theme file), but there aren't any.
<AaronL2> As far as I know, the XSETTINGS manager is provided by GNOME's control panel.
<AaronL2> the main icon theme that is returned is the one that corresponds to the overall current theme the user has chosen, I think
<AaronL2> the fallback is always "gnome"
<AaronL2> Without modifying GTK, it seems that we need an XSETTINGS manager to get things done properly--perhaps the fallback could be hildon.
<AaronL2> there is no "default" implementation for an XSETTINGS manager
<AaronL2> another option would be to patch the index.theme file for the hicolor icon theme and add an Inherits line, but that's kludgy
<AaronL2> seb128:  what do you think?
<AaronL2> for the purpose of porting already existing maemo applications, I think that the hildon icon theme needs to be available.
<seb128> you can inherit from the maemo theme in the theme index
<seb128> if you need it
<AaronL2> do you mean the hicolor index.theme file?
<seb128> no, whatever theme you are using
<AaronL2> gtkicontheme.c ignores that--it depends on an XSETTINGS manager to retrieve that information
<seb128> you don't need a xsettings manager
<seb128> you can either use the xsettings or use a .gtkrc for example
<AaronL2> I couldn't find anything in the gtkrc file having to do with icon themes
<AaronL2> plus, the code in gtkicontheme.c does not do anything with gtkrc
<AaronL2> I tried modifying the mobilebasic theme file, that didn't change anything
<seb128> hum, right
<AaronL2> I don't think GTK's icon theme code is examining any of these things
<seb128> sorry, that's for GTK themes
<seb128> well, you can create an icon theme
<AaronL2> yeah, although it is possible to specify the icon theme that is used by the GTK theme
<seb128> and have an Inherits=othertheme
<AaronL2> but again, I don't think it will use this information
<AaronL2> seb128:  right, but either the programmer will have to manually enable this icon theme or patch hicolor
<seb128> why?
<AaronL2> well, just because the icon theme is added to /usr/share/icons doesn't mean it will be automatically used
<seb128> no, that's where you have to use xsettings
<AaronL2> if that were the case, then the hildon icon theme would automatically be added to the list of icon themes maintained by GTK
<AaronL2> ok, then xsettings, where are these xsettings stored?  I debugged through the xsettings code
<AaronL2> and it only gets them from an XSETTINGS manager window
<AaronL2> if it cannot contact an XSETTINGS manager window, then it fallback back to "hicolor" for main and null for fallback
<AaronL2> s/it fallback back/it falls back
<seb128> xsettings are not "stored"
<kwwii> hrm, I see that in the gtkrc of mobile-basic it sets hildon as the fallback theme which is apparently not used if you what you say is correct
<seb128> gnome-settings-daemon read /desktop/gnome/interface/icon_theme
<seb128> and applies it as xsetting
<seb128> that GTK uses
<AaronL2> okay, well, I tried that
<AaronL2> I modified /desktop/gnome/interface/icon_theme and changed it to hildon
<AaronL2> I used gconftool
<AaronL2> that didn't change things
<seb128> do you run gnome-settings-daemon?
<AaronL2> is it enabled by the platform?
<AaronL2> gnome-settings-daemon is probably supplying an XSETTINGS manager window
<seb128> I've no idea what you call "the platform"
<AaronL2> I mean
<AaronL2> by an image generated by Image creator
<seb128> gnome-settings-daemon runs on the ubuntu desktop
<seb128> I didn't run a mobile environment
<seb128> no idea, you need to ask somebody from ubuntu-mobile
<AaronL2> ok, then maybe we need gnome-settings-daemon on MIDs
<seb128> from reading the mailing list probably not
<kwwii> seb128: I do not think it is run on mobile
<seb128> no
<seb128> let me look to the list
<seb128> somebody wrote about an hildon-setting-manager I think
<seb128> "Moblin Applets (moblin-utilities) Status Update"
<seb128> "Replaced gnome-settings-daemon with a customized version called 
<seb128> moblin-settings-daemon. This daemon is based on the gnome version's
<seb128> code but will have all the pieces moblin doesn't need stripped out."
<AaronL2> this was from Todd Brandt?
<seb128> "Brandt, Todd E <todd.e.brandt@intel.com>"
<seb128> yes
<ToddBrandt> that's me, reading back
<AaronL2> :-)
<seb128> this setting daemon should probably apply the theme xsetting then
<AaronL2> ToddBrandt:  the XSETTINGS stuff is documented at freedesktop.org
<ToddBrandt> AaronL2 and seb128: gnome-settings-daemon was build and installed by gnome-control-center, which has been supplanted by the moblin-applets package
<ToddBrandt> moblin-applets now uses a modigified version of gnome-settings-daemon called moblin-settings-daemon] 
<seb128> ok
<seb128> looks like it should read some gconf key and apply the corresponding xsettings then
<ToddBrandt> It does have a themes section in it taken from gnome-settings-daemon, is that what you're trying to enable?
<ToddBrandt> yep
<AaronL2> well, yes and no
<AaronL2> it needs to be able to work with GTK's XSETTINGS client
<seb128> there is no "client"
<AaronL2> GTK queries a hidden window (well, most likely a hidden window) that provides a certain atom
<seb128> a GTK application will use the xsetting
<seb128> the manager just needs to set it
<ToddBrandt> hmm, I haven't looked too deeply at the theme code in gnome/moblin-settings-daemon
<AaronL2> seb128:  I don't think that's the way it works, I stepped through the code yesterday.
<seb128> AaronL2: how do you think it works?
<seb128> AaronL2: run applications under GNOME, change the theme, notice that they update automatically
<AaronL2> seb128:  right
<AaronL2> I'm talking about under the surface
<AaronL2> exactly how the GTK process gets this information
<seb128> under GNOME the theme manager updates the key, the settings-daemon watch the key and update the xsetting and GTK use the change
<AaronL2> the settings daemon is in a separate process
<AaronL2> there is a mechanism that GTK is using to query the settings daemon
<AaronL2> it uses X atoms
<seb128> no
<AaronL2> here's some code from xsettings-client.c in GTK
<seb128> right, there is no communication with the daemon
<seb128> the settings daemon update the xsetting
<seb128> and the app gets it from there
<AaronL2>   sprintf(buffer, "_XSETTINGS_S%d", screen);
<AaronL2>   atom_names[0]  = buffer;
<AaronL2>   atom_names[1]  = "_XSETTINGS_SETTINGS";
<AaronL2>   atom_names[2]  = "MANAGER";
<AaronL2> then it uses XInternAtom to form atom IDs
<AaronL2>   client->selection_atom = atoms[0] ;
<AaronL2>   client->xsettings_atom = atoms[1] ;
<AaronL2>   client->manager_atom = atoms[2] ;
<AaronL2> ok, it gets the manager window as follows
<AaronL2>   client->manager_window = XGetSelectionOwner (client->display,
<AaronL2>                                                client->selection_atom);
<AaronL2> and it queries the manager window for the XSETTINGS info as follows
<AaronL2>       result = XGetWindowProperty (client->display, client->manager_window,
<AaronL2>                                    client->xsettings_atom, 0, LONG_MAX,
<AaronL2>                                    False, client->xsettings_atom,
<AaronL2>                                    &type, &format, &n_items, &bytes_after, &dat\
<AaronL2> a);
<seb128> GTK will pick the theme change automatically, you just need the settings daemon to apply it correctly
<seb128> that works with gnome-settings-daemon
<AaronL2> yes, I think we are probably talking about the same thing, just at differnet levels
<seb128> if that doesn't work using moblin-settings-daemon this one is probably doing something wrong
<AaronL2> I think from the low-level perspective, it is using the XSETTINGS manager/client thing as I mentioned
<AaronL2> that's how the communication occurs
<AaronL2> but, at the higher level, these settings are managed by the settings daemon
<AaronL2> and the settings daemon populates them to the XSETTINGS manager window
<AaronL2> it seems that moblin-settings-daemon must provide this entire support mechanism, including the XSETTINGS manager window
<seb128> right
<ToddBrandt> seb128 and AaronL2: at the moment when you use the moblin platform neither gnome or moblin-settings-daemon run, I am (this very minut) adding in moblin-settings-daemon to be autorun when the GUI starts. Thusfar all I've changed from the gnome-settings-daemon code is the keybindings functionality, the xsettings functionality is identical and should still function with the gnome gconf keys, The latest moblin-applets
<ToddBrandt>  will be ready in about an hour.
<AaronL2> Todd:  so, the fallback icon theme is still "gnome", I take it?
<seb128> gtk+ uses gnome and hicolor in any case
<AaronL2> perhaps the mobilebasic icon theme (if there is one), can inherit from Hildon
<seb128> hicolor is upstream
<AaronL2> somehow, hildon needs to be available....
<ToddBrandt> AaronL2: it's whatever control-center-2.18.1 defined it as, which is gnome, yes
<seb128> and we patch it in ubuntu to use gnome because otherwise it was creating issues
<seb128> whatever icon theme you use should Inherits of the other themes which are required
<AaronL2> so, the main icon theme, the one returned by the settings daemon, should inherit from hildon, right?
<seb128> yes
<AaronL2> Todd:  do you know if there is a mobilebasic icon theme?
<AaronL2> I wonder what it will be using--if I recall, the icontheme specified in the mobilebasic theme file is Default
<AaronL2> and of course, there is no Default icon theme provided
<ToddBrandt> AaronL2: I thought there was, it was what we used on the Zi9s I think
<AaronL2> the only icon themes in /usr/share/icons, I think, are emacs22, hicolor, hildon, and gnome
<kwwii> until now we are planning on using a UME theme for certain specific icons, Tango, then Gnome and then Hicolor
<AaronL2> there might be more on images created for the Samsung
<kwwii> this means that tango would replace hildon in our case
<AaronL2> kwwii:  well, as long at Tango includes all the icons from hildon, that will be fine
<AaronL2> there are some specialized icons in hildon
<kwwii> AaronL2: those icons would end up in the UME theme then
<AaronL2> how would the UME theme be used?
<AaronL2> would Tango inherit from UME?
<kwwii> it would be the theme on top
<kwwii> yes
<AaronL2> ok, then that should work--this might result in an install issue for already existing maemo applications, if they are specifically installing icons to an icon theme named hildon
<AaronL2> one additional porting task....
<kwwii> right, we will have to look into those problems as they come up
<kwwii> officialy by the xdg spec, 3rd party apps should install their icons in to hicolor
<AaronL2> well, I would hope that you would continue to have the hildon icon theme
<AaronL2> and UME might inherit from hildon
<kwwii> yeah, we might not get around it
<kwwii> our main issue is to make this as easy to theme as possible (for hardware vendors)
<AaronL2> but, you're right, it is probably best to just install to hicolor, I think that will work on the Nokia Internet tablets as well
<kwwii> yepp, I am discussing this with the nokia people as well
<AaronL2> well, I think the solution to this issue with icon themes is known, kwwii, seb128, Todd, thanks for your help
<AaronL2> Todd: it looks like much of these issues will be rectified when the mobile settings daemon is enabled
<AaronL2> possibly, other theme issues as well
<kwwii> hehe, I am good at pointing a finger at someone else :p
<AaronL2> and now, no need for me to write an e-mail to ubuntu-mobile :-)
<ToddBrandt> AaronL2: yea, that daemon is pretty important and hasn't been run until now, if you have any issues with it let me know
<AaronL2> plus, Todd sits near me, I can go and pester him :-)
<ToddBrandt> :)
<AaronL2> well, if you aren't working from home :-P
<AaronL2> ToddBrandt:  I need a user name?
<ToddBrandt> AaronL2: oh, wait, go here
<ToddBrandt> http://moblin.org/projects_moblin-applets-development.html
<ToddBrandt> That explains how to download and build the source without a username
<ToddBrandt> using rsync
<AaronL2> that's working, thanks
<bfiller> I have a debian packaging question was wondering if anyone knew the answer too..
<bfiller> I have a debian/gconf-defaults file defined. I know I need to add something to my debian/rules file to make this get installed
<bfiller> but not sure what. The current rules file just includes /usr/share/cdbs/1/rules/debhelper.mk. I think I need dh_gconf somewhere?
<ToddBrandt> bfiller: you do that with a .schema file
<bfiller> ToddBrandt: pls explain
<ToddBrandt> bfiller grab the latest moblin-applets and look at the rules file, there are two changes to debian/rules and the addition of a schemas directory  which install a huge bunch of default gconf keys
<bfiller> ToddBrandt: cool, I'll take a look, thanks
<ToddBrandt> you can even compare between the two git commits, that will show exactly what was changed to add in gconf stuff
<ToddBrandt> This is the commit where I added all the gconf stuff from scratch (well, copied and modified from gnome-control-center, but fomr scratch from git's point of view ;) )
<ToddBrandt> commit e07f69051c09e814e4ddcad2db60ad7b2f5e2e60
<ToddBrandt> Author: Todd Brandt <todd.e.brandt@intel.com>
<ToddBrandt> Date:   Tue Sep 18 23:21:55 2007 -0700
<ToddBrandt>     Replaced gnome-settings-daemon with a lighter weight
<ToddBrandt>     version called moblin-settings-daemon. This should
<ToddBrandt>     now be run at startup so as to handle the keybindings.
<ToddBrandt> 
<ToddBrandt>     Keybindings now functions for a new set of moblin
<ToddBrandt>     specific gconf keys in
<ToddBrandt>     /apps/moblin-settings-daemon/keybindings
<bfiller> ToddBrandt: thanks. My problem is my deb package has no source, so the rules file is empy. I'm not sure what to add to it to just do the gconf stuff
<ToddBrandt> bfiller: if you just want to install gconf keys, I'd add this line to the install part of rules first
<ToddBrandt>         GCONF_DISABLE_MAKEFILE_SCHEMA_INSTALL=1 $(MAKE) DESTDIR=$(CURDIR)/debian/moblin-applets install
<ToddBrandt> replace moblin-applets with your project name
<ToddBrandt> then add dh_gconf to the binary stage
<ToddBrandt> then add in the schemas directory and automake (with the install-data-local action)
<ToddBrandt> Basically GCONF_DISABLE_MAKEFILE_SCHEMA_INSTALL just keeps the schemas directory from being installed while the binary is being built (lest they would end up on your workstation), then dh_gconf creates the scripts which will install the .schemas and puts them in the binary
<bfiller> ToddBrandt: I understand, thanks
<HappyCamp_> asac, I'm back.   I went to lunch.  You still awake?
<bspencer> Mithrandir, (or other)   the UME build currently causes the system to hang during boot.  The last message is "Activating Swap"
<bspencer> alek, told me that this is related to a recent update of unionfs with upstream
<bspencer> (is that right ? )
<bspencer> and also that a fix had been identified and would be in soon.
<bspencer> is this correct info and is there anything we can do to help accelerate this?  
<AaronL2> bspencer:  can't help you with this, but are you by chance at your desk?
<bspencer> AaronL2, yes, but not avail temporarily
<AaronL2> bspencer:  no prob, let's talk next week
<bspencer> AaronL2, or in 30mins
#ubuntu-mobile 2007-09-22
<corevette> are there any previews of ubuntu mobile?
<corevette> what it's going to look like?
* Starting logfile irclogs/ubuntu-mobile.log
#ubuntu-mobile 2008-09-15
<ian_brasil> persia: http://paste.ubuntu.com/47069/ if you can have a look at this script it would be great
<persia> ian_brasil: Perhaps it could take the new image file name as an argument as well?
 * persia imagines grow-image ubuntu-mid.img 10000
<ian_brasil> persia: ok
<persia> ian_brasil: Also, it looks like you're coying one image into another.  I think you need to mount -o loop the old image, and copy -arP the contents of the old image into the new image.
<persia> Of course, I'm guessing.  If it works, then it works :)
<ian_brasil> persia: http://paste.ubuntu.com/47075/
<StevenK> ian_brasil: How much bigger do you want the image?
<persia> StevenK: On Friday we were discussing the two use cases of someone who wants to download and play (but doesn't have much bandwidth) vs. someone who wanted to be able to modify an image at their heart's content with ogra's script, and no fear of running our of space.  This script seemed like a good way to address both use cases.
<ian_brasil> StevenK: i want to run dogtail tests on the ui and this means pulling lots of things in i believe https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/moblin-ui-framework/+bug/155927
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 155927 in moblin-ui-framework "cannot enable assistive technologies in ubuntu mobile" [Wishlist,Triaged] 
<StevenK> ian_brasil: And I'd rather not increase the dailies to add 100MB or so.
<ian_brasil> StevenK: yes, persia suggested the script as an easy to maintain way for people to increase the img size 
<ian_brasil> so you don't have to do this
<ian_brasil> persia: actually when i run ogras script on the new increased size image i do not get the chroot just the question whether i want to re-roll it
<ian_brasil> the larger image runs in kvm fine however
<persia> ian_brasil: Odd.
<persia> On the other hand, having it boot is an excellent thing :)
 * persia tries
<persia> ian_brasil: usage notes: 1) it stomps on a local /images directory: you might want to use a tmpdir 2) I'm used to commands in the format command source destination, but this seems to be command destination source.  3) The final result ends up in a subdirectory, which is a little confusing.
<persia> Lastly, it appears that the result image contains a directory containing the source image.  I think you want `sudo cp -arP images/tmpfs/* images/fobpath/`
<persia> ian_brasil: After changing images/tmpfs to images/tmpfs/*, edit-image works for me again.
<StevenK> persia: You don't, since * will miss the .disk directory on the image
<persia> Right.  Then it needs something else.  Perhaps a tar construction?
<ian_brasil> sudo cp -arP images/tmpfs/*.??* images/fobpath/ 
<ian_brasil> maybe
<ian_brasil> persia:  when you say works do you mean you increased the size and then ran ogras script to get the chroot?
<persia> ian_brasil: Sorry for the delay.  Yes, tha is precisely what I mean.
<crevette> hey persia
<crevette> sorry I didn't had time to look to update bluez-gnome
<crevette> I'm Baptiste Mille-Mathias
<persia> crevette: No worries.  It's something that needs testing as much as anything else.  What features have you been testing?  input?  comms?  audio?
<crevette> persia, my test was weak, I just tested the empty plugin name in the UI
<crevette> I didn't look at other stuff
<persia> crevette: Heh :)  That seems common.  While it's *excellent* that the display bug is fixed, I'm not sure it's best to update if it breaks other things.
<persia> I'd rather have a bad display than have it not work with bluetooth keyboards & mice.
<crevette> I didn't tried to do the merge stuff also I didn't what is differnet from a plain update form latest ubuntu
<crevette> persia, the package is just bluez-gnome oso id shouldn't impact except the applet and the properties UI
<crevette> sorry for typo
<persia> crevette: "shouldn't": I agree.  Still, needs testing :)
<crevette> persia, so https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/bluez-utils/+bug/258738 could be moved to bluez-gnome then ?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 258738 in bluez-utils "intrepid regression: bluetooth services without name in tab "Services"" [Undecided,Confirmed] 
<crevette> perhaps we can also Marcel to give some hints
<persia> crevette: Moving the bug to the right package sounds like a good idea :)
<persia> Also, who is Marcel?
<crevette> Marcel Hottman, upstream developper
<persia> Oh, right.  I think we probably want to actually test what we have before we do that :)
<persia> It's just a matter of getting all the right people to test.
<crevette> persia, it is just i'm not sure if it is bluez-gnome or bluez-utils fault as per comment https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/bluez-utils/+bug/258738/comments/5
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 258738 in bluez-utils "intrepid regression: bluetooth services without name in tab "Services"" [Undecided,Confirmed] 
<persia> crevette: Right, but you also said that updating bluez-gnome to 0.28 fixed it for you, right?
<crevette> yep
<persia> So, it's probably a bug because of different versions of bluez-utils and bluez-gnome.  Given that bluez-gnome is out-of-date, I think bluez-gnome is the place to fix it.
<crevette> okay so I move the component to bluez-gnome
<persia> crevette: Do you need assistance merging the code, or do you welcome that task?
<crevette> persia, I need guidance
<persia> crevette: OK.  Have you ever merged Ubuntu changes previously.
<crevette> and I don't knwo when I'll be able to do it, because I'm a new father, and my time is limited
<persia> Yes indeed.  That can limit time :)  Congratulations!
<crevette> thanks
<crevette> persia, I did merge but a while back
<crevette> at least more than one year
<persia> crevette: If you have time in about 20 minutes, I could walk through the merge with you.  If not, I'll chat with slytherin (who has also been working on it), and we'll process the merge.
<crevette> I seen there is a doc in the wiki regarding merge
<crevette> I won't be available tonight before 21:15 GMT tonight
<persia> crevette: OK.  We'll try it in the meantime, and hopefully have something for you to test then.  Have a good day :)
<crevette> thanks
<crevette> anyway I'm interested to have a good bluetooth stack in GNOME
<crevette> I did some patches on upstream (like gnome-user-share) to improve user experience
<crevette> but my free time is shorten now
<persia> crevette: Understood.  Any way you can help is appreciated :)
<crevette> persia, bluez 4 is planned for intrepid+1 ?
<crevette> I seen Fedora 10 wich will be issued in same time than intrepid will have it, but I don't know it it implies a lot of changes in dependents packages
<persia> I don't know that anyone is specifically planning BlueZ 4 for jaunty, but I'd be surprised if nobody updated it.
<ogra> ian_brasil, https://code.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-mobile-dev/ubuntu-mobile/mobile-scripts has a grow_image.sh script as well now
<ogra> i wrote it in a way that no root access is needed (uses mtools)
<christian_> hello
<christian_> I wonder whether ubuntu mid is meant to be an mobile phone OS
<christian_> or is it just for netbooks and alike?
<persia> christian_: Nope.  It's for little tiny devices.  Like the Nokia N810 or the Sharp Zaurus.  But it doesn't run on those, because they are ARM.
<persia> For netbooks and the like, there's a new flavour being developed: "Ubuntu Mobile", but it will be new for intrepid.
<ian_brasil> persia: when i try to run ogras script on the new image i get this error
<ian_brasil> /tmp/image/casper/filesystem.squashfs: No such file or directory
<ian_brasil> chroot: cannot run command `mount': No such file or directory
<ian_brasil> chroot: cannot run command `mount': No such file or directory
<ian_brasil> chroot: cannot run command `mkdir': No such file or directory
<ian_brasil> chroot: cannot run command `mount': No such file or directory
<ian_brasil> cp: cannot create regular file `/tmp/mergemount/etc/': Is a directory
<ian_brasil> chroot: cannot run command `su': No such file or directory
<ian_brasil> chroot: cannot run command `rm': No such file or directory
<ian_brasil> chroot: cannot run command `umount': No such file or directory
<ian_brasil> chroot: cannot run command `umount': No such file or directory
<ian_brasil> chroot: cannot run command `umount': No such file or directory
<ian_brasil> chroot: cannot run command `rm': No such file or directory
<persia> christian: I suppose if you've a phone with a high enough resolution, and the right processor, you might be able to run Ubuntu MID, but it doesn't have a dialing app, so it wouldn't be very useful for a phone.
<persia> ogra: ^^ ?
<christian_> persia: thanks
<ogra> ian_brasil, did you use my new grow_image.sh ? 
<ian_brasil> ah sorry, please ignore...i just saw ogras script
<ogra> :)
<ogra> i'll add a shrink_image.sh later as well that strips out empty blocks again ... and a wrapper to call the three in a row
<ian_brasil> that rocks
<ogra> the edit_image.sh definately needs error checking and cleanup routines 
<ogra> lease check for stale mounts if it fails
<ogra> before running it again
<ian_brasil> ogra: ok, i will be hammering it today so if there is something wrong i imagine it will show up
<ogra> thanks for that :)
<ian_brasil> ogra: i just grew an image and then ran edit_squashfs on it and i get this
<ian_brasil> /tmp/image/casper/filesystem.squashfs: No such file or directory
<ian_brasil> chroot: cannot run command `mount': No such file or directory
<ian_brasil> chroot: cannot run command `mount': No such file or directory
<ian_brasil> and it offers to re-roll but not the chroot
<ogra> did you check for stale mounts before ? 
<ian_brasil> how can i do that?
<ogra> (that includes /proc and /sys
<ogra> mount
<ogra> :)
<ian_brasil> ha ha
<ogra> there might be mounts from the failed attempt hanging around 
<ogra> i really need to add more error checking to edit_image
<ian_brasil> ogra: i just rebooted but still do not get a chroot
<ogra> can you do the steps of the script manualy step by step ? 
<ogra> that should expose what exactly doesnt work
<ian_brasil> ok
<ian_brasil> it is falling over here
<ian_brasil> sudo mount -o loop -t squashfs /tmp/image/casper/filesystem.squashfs /tmp/squashfs
<lool> you have squashfs support?
<lool> modprobe squashfs
<ogra> another option is that you ran out of loop devices ... 
<ian_brasil> lool: yes
 * ogra isnt really a friend of loop mounting ... thats why the grow_image script doesnt mount anything at all
<ogra> does /tmp/image/casper/filesystem.squashfs exist ? 
<ogra> and /tmp/squashfs
<ian_brasil> /tmp/image/casper/filesystem.squashf this does not exist
<ogra> so you have an empty image :/
<ogra> or the image isnt mounted and thats only a subsequent error
<ogra> mount|grep /tmp/image
<ogra> what does that return ? 
<ian_brasil> /home/ian/Dev/modified_images/ubuntu-mid.img on /tmp/image type vfat (rw,loop=/dev/loop0)
<ogra> ok
<ogra> and /tmp/image/casper exists ? 
<ian_brasil> ogra: no
<ogra> weird
<ian_brasil> /tmp/image/ldlinux.sys
<ian_brasil> just that
<ogra> thats after you used grow_image ? 
<ian_brasil> i assume so
<ogra> dpkg -l mtools
<ogra> ?
<ogra> ogra@osiris:~/Devel/branches/mobile-scripts$ grep Requires image-tools/grow_image.sh 
<ogra> # Requires: mtools, syslinux
<ogra> :)
<ian_brasil> Desired=Unknown/Install/Remove/Purge/Hold
<ian_brasil> | Status=Not/Installed/Config-f/Unpacked/Failed-cfg/Half-inst/t-aWait/T-pend
<ian_brasil> |/ Err?=(none)/Hold/Reinst-required/X=both-problems (Status,Err: uppercase=bad)
<ian_brasil> ||/ Name           Version        Description
<ian_brasil> +++-==============-==============-============================================
<ian_brasil> ii  mtools         3.9.11-0ubuntu Tools for manipulating MSDOS files
<ogra> hmm
<ogra> do you have enough diskspace ? 
<ian_brasil> i have 50GB free
<ogra> the FS you wokr on should have 2x the imagesize plus the amount you grow
<ian_brasil> now it is working
<ogra> weird
<tonyespy> mterry, tremolux, DebbieFoghorn, bfiller: have any of you tried this morning's install?  Looks badly broken to me!  ;(
<bfiller> tonyespy: wrong channel :)
<ian_brasil> couple of questions: why does apt-get dist-upgrade in a chroot pull in firefox as well as midbrowser?..also is the preferred way to enter s3 sleep to use the script or pm-suspend?
<tonyespy> bfiller: doh
<ogra> ian_brasil, pm-suspend imho ... as it takes care for several extra things ... but opinions here differ a bit ... i think lool isnt a pm-utils fane :)
<ogra> *fan
<ogra> no idea about the dist-upgrade ... might be through a recommends
<ian_brasil> ogra: ok
<lool> ogra: Oh I'm not against pm-utils as a concept, but it's reputed slow
<ogra> because we call to many useless scripts 
<lool> We should aim at having the kernel suspend properly, and that will be increasingly the case with kernel modesettings
<ogra> on a MID you will only need to use a subset
<ogra> you will always have misbehaving modules needing a special treatment
<lool> ogra: You mean restricted modules?
<ogra> lool, no, just modules
<ogra> the r8169 is a typically misbehaving free module 
<ogra> due to the fact that new HW comes out and gets added 
<ogra> you will always have kernel releases where modules wont behave properly and you will need workarounds
<lool> ogra: It feels to me it would be a cleaner approach to fix the modules or flag them in kernel rather than in user space
<ogra> or HW that doesnt do the right thing (think IBM)
<ogra> right, an many cases the kernel is the right place to fix 
<ogra> but if you are in a freeze and the fix is to intrusive a scripted workaround might be better 
<ogra> and somethimes you simply have the case where a fix breaks on one HW while it fixes the other and you have to special case
<lool> The problem is that we pile mass of checks which are run for all hardware despite being hardware specifics -- just checking whether you have the hw by poking hal or running scripts which parse xml configs takes ages
<lool> While in the kernel, quirks are at least driver specific
<ogra> most of the stuff pm-utils does *is* to apply these quirks 
<lool> Nobody really knows how accurate the userspace quirks are these days
<ogra> like vbetol stuff 
<lool> For instance some thinkpad quirks have been applied to some models and removed for others, but the difference is actually the bios version
<ogra> right
<ogra> but tats nothing you can easily solve in kernel
<ogra> if you look at /usr/lib/pm-utils/sleep.d/ ... most of the things in there are actually userspace fices
<ogra> *fixes
<lool> it strikes me that it would be more efficient to source the functions once
 * ogra lols about the comments in 95led and 05led
<ogra> they are nearly the same scripts and both of them suggest to merge with the other 
<ogra> you wont get rid of stuff like 90clock
<ogra> or 10NetworkManager
<ogra> 94cpufreq is definately a time hog
<ogra> but can be dropped once the module behaves
<ogra> 95anacron even cals the initscript ... thts likely slow as well
 * ogra urghs about 98smart-kernel-video
<ogra> woah
<lool> ogra: You will if instead of piling shell foo, you implement it in C and over dbus
<ogra> smart_kernel_nvidia || smart_kernel_fglrx || smart_kernel_intel ...
<ogra> sigh
<lool> Anyway, it's in the works
<lool> ogra: See :)
<ogra> so on intel it will wait for the return onf the nvidia and fglrx functions before even starting to think
<ogra> thats a waste
<ogra> wow, 99video is a real monster
<ian_brasil> for the time being the script is a nice workaround? ..i am thinking of extending the shutdown applet rbelem wrote with this script..you think it is a good idea? 
#ubuntu-mobile 2008-09-16
<persia> ian_brasil: Firefox was pulled by midbrowser in some of the earlier images, but the recommends chain that brought it should be gone.  I suspect you've started with an old enough image to still have it.  Try purging it, or pull a new image.
<StevenK> persia: http://paste.ubuntu.com/47308/
<persia> StevenK: This is (loosely) based on applications.menu?
<StevenK> persia: Incredibly loosely.
<persia> Right.  Since the applications.menu from gnome-menus needs modification, and m-b-f doesn't respect <DefaultMergeDirs/> let's start with applications.menu
<persia> Just above where it has <!-- Accessories submenu --> add a section for <!-- Home submenu ==>
<persia> s/=/-/g
<persia> This contains <Menu> containing <Name>, <Directory>, and <Include>
<persia> <Include> contains a bunch of <Filename> links
 * StevenK digs up {applications,settings}.menu
<persia> Also, there needs to be a /usr/share/desktop-directories/home.directory, but this can be incredibly sparse, as we don't use the Comment or Icon or GenericName or anything.
<persia> Basically home.directory only needs [DesktopEntry], Type=Directory, Encoding=UTF-8, and Name=Home
<StevenK> persia: Thinking about including all this stuff in -default-settings, too
<persia> That means m-b-f needs to Depend on -default-settings.
<StevenK> Hm.
<StevenK> We need to upload m-b-f anyway
<persia> Right.  That's why I think it belongs in m-b-f :)
<StevenK> Do we want to kill any menus from applications.menu?
 * persia looks
<persia> I'd rather not have the "Extras" menu
<StevenK> That doesn't exist in applications.menu :-)
<persia> Multimedia is mostly empty, but I'm guessing that we'll want audio/video stuff there.
<persia> Development is mostly empty, but it won't be if someone wants to do development.
<persia> So, Extras is the only one I want to kill, and you can't do it with the XML.
<StevenK> src/mobile-basic-home-plugin.c:                         i->cat = g_strdup ("Extras");
<StevenK> Ah ha.
<StevenK> That line has "if (!i->cat)" before it
<persia> Does that mean "Extras" is a catch-all for anything not shown elsewhere?
<persia> That is actually useful, although ideally we won't actually present it.
<StevenK> I guess it means Extras is a catch-all for anything that doesn't define a category
<StevenK> For example, it currently has Menu Editor, copa_ap_cp_name, OpenJDK Java 6 Runtime and Panel Manager
<persia> Right.  OpenJDK Java 6 Runtime should go away, as should copa_ap_cp_name
<persia> I'll take another look at Menu Editor and Panel Manager
<persia> Menu Editor goes away with no longer depending on gnome-menus for {applications,settings}.menu
<StevenK> Ah, neat.
<StevenK> A few other things should drop out, too
<persia> Panel Manager comes from matchbox-panel-manager
<persia> How much of matchbox do we really use?  Could we get away with just installing matchbox-window-manager?
<StevenK> I have no idea. Try it? :_)
<persia> It looks to me like that's a spurious dependency in ubuntu-mid-default-settings : it ought depend on matchbox-window-manager, rather than matchbox.
<persia> I'll try it;
<persia> Seems to work.  Updating ubuntu-mid-default-settings
<StevenK> I think I have the m-b-f changes too
<persia> Excellent.  Have you looked at hildon-desktop to drop copa_ap_cp_name ?
<StevenK> That's hildon-control-panel
<StevenK> We use that :-/
<persia> Do we use copa_ap_cp_name?  Does anyone else?  Is there any reason to ship the .desktop file?
<StevenK> It runs controlpanel
<StevenK> Maybe we just want to give it a category and fix the name
<persia> That works too :)
<StevenK> No Home with my new m-b-f
<persia> What do you have for applications.menu?
<StevenK> I have to head off about nowish. Shall I put my source up?
<persia> Please push it.  I'll fiddle, and see if I can get it to have Home.
<StevenK> persia: http://people.ubuntu.com/~stevenk/mobile-basic-flash_0.44-0ubuntu2.dsc
<persia> At some point we probably ought to tell germinate about -mid :)
<StevenK> persia: Any news?
<persia> StevenK: Nope.  Just redownloaded the images, and upgraded them.  Booting now to fiddle.
<persia> (or once the squashfs finishes)
<persia> (and actually got distracted by upstream VLC showing up)
<StevenK> persia: On real hardware?
<persia> No.  Virtual.  While I don't have any disks to fiddle with the installer right now, the live image boots.
<StevenK> Ahh
<persia> StevenK: Where was that gconf key in which the categories to be displayed were listed?
<StevenK> persia: /apps/marquee-plugins/categories or so
<persia> Hrm.  Putting it there shows "Home" as an option in the menus, but the contents aren't the Home menu :/
<StevenK> What are the contents?
<persia> Whatever the last shown menu contained.
<StevenK> Odd.
<persia> Indeed.  It appears that it puts it in the menu, but then doesn't actually display the contents.
<persia> Hmm.  I wonder if it's that "home.directory" != "Home.directory".
 * persia tries other things.
<StevenK> Mm. Maybe.
<persia> Grumble.  I'm not finding the defaults file for gconf, so have to set it *each* time.
<persia> Gah!  It's m-b-f being even more non-XDG-compliant.
<StevenK> \o/
 * persia dislikes debugging non-crashes, as there's no handy stacktrace
<StevenK> persia: Sprinkle abort(); into the code? That would give you a stack trace ....
 * StevenK chuckles
<persia> StevenK: Found it.  It's around line 922.  Notice the lack of anything parsing <Filename>
<persia> StevenK: Yes, but it still means I need to find the right function.  Just getting a random stacktrace doesn't help so much.
<StevenK> persia: I see that.
<persia> I much prefer to read code when I have a map telling me what is important to read :)
<StevenK> I'm guessing it needs to be patched. More. :-(
<persia> StevenK: So as I see it, we have two choices: either add a check for <Filename> in the loop starting at line 928, or implement a hildon plugin for gnome-menus and drop this package entirely.
<persia> Given that we're all sorts of frozen, I think it's a patch.
<StevenK> Indeed
<StevenK> Not sure how to crowbar Filename into it.
<persia> Well, actually, I suppose you could implement Home in a different manner, but I'm kinda partial to the XDG menu definition format.
<persia> I'm not sure either.  I think it needs entries in the hash table, but those all assume we're selecting based only on categories.
<persia> On the other hand, I think the code is a little confusing.
<StevenK> I've added the else case
<persia> I think that the variable "category" actually means a given submenu.
<persia> Excellent.  Does it work?
<StevenK> Agreed. Nope, since I'm still in cdbs patch
<persia> Hah.  Found it.
<persia> StevenK: Do you know anything about bug #209870 ?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 209870 in acton "xsettings added back to moblin applets " [Critical,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/209870
<persia> (specifically the matchbox-window-manager task)
<persia> So, the reason fvwm1 is in the daily images is bug #145517 (patch attached)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 145517 in matchbox-window-manager "Matchbox Window Manager doesn't provide x-window-manager virtual package and alternative :(" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/145517
<StevenK> Ah ha!
<StevenK> persia: Can update-alternatives be run multiple times like that in the postinst?
<persia> Multiple times?  You mean --slave?
<StevenK> persia: Nope. You don't guard the update-alternatives run with configure or any other arguments
<persia> Oh.  I just stole the code from fvwm1
<persia> Let me look at a less deprecated example.
<persia> Anyway, rerunning the same update-alternatives command should have no impact.
<StevenK> I'd just rather it was only run on $1 == configure, personally
<persia> OK.  Shall I fix that, or do you want to change it?
<StevenK> Fix it and upload, I say
 * persia can't upload
<persia> fixing now ...
<StevenK> You're seperated from your key, or matchbox is main?
<persia> the latter.
<persia> Anyway, new debdiff going up now...
 * StevenK will happily upload it
<persia> http://launchpadlibrarian.net/17637002/matchbox-window-manager_1.2-2ubuntu2.debdiff
<StevenK> persia: Uploaded.
<persia> StevenK: Thanks.  I'm up to 'p' in other package review.  Nothing else strikes me as quite so egregious as fvwm1 though :(
 * StevenK looks at m-b-f code again
<StevenK> persia: Suggestions? :-)
<persia> What happened when you added the else clause?
<StevenK> Nothing, since the else clause doesn't do anything yet
<persia> RIght.  Hold on while I bring up that code again
<persia> else {} starts on line 932?
<StevenK> I added "else if (!strcmp ((gchar *)iter->name, "Filename"))" on line 931
<persia> Before or after "continue" ?
<persia> Also, why iter->name rather than iterchild->name ?
<StevenK> Which continue?
<StevenK> And everything else there is using iter->name, such as "else if (!strcmp ((gchar *)iter->name, "Include"))"
<persia> I had "continue" on line 931.
<persia> And for me, everything else is using iterchild->name
 * persia tries debian/rules patch to see if that helps
<persia> Nope.  no rule to make target 'patch'.
<persia> So, I'm looking at source retrieved by dget http://people.ubuntu.com/~stevenk/mobile-basic-flash_0.44-0ubuntu2.dsc
<persia> Should I be looking at something else?
<persia> Should I do anything special to get the source in shape to compare?
<persia> (debian/README.source is silent on the matter)
<StevenK> I did cdbs-edit-patch <lala>
<persia> RIght.  lala it is.
<persia> OK.  That's the problem.
<StevenK> Hm?
<persia> We're looking at different code and passing back and forth line numbers.
<persia> So, the loop that actually pulls in the Categories appears to start on line 933 (post-lala)
<persia> Mind you, this will break, as it fails to recognise the negations in applications.menu, but wedging in a real XML parser would be fairly painful.
<persia> So it's just going to skip over the negations.
<persia> I think it's in that loop that we also want to pull the <Filename> entries.
<persia> I'm just tracking through to figure out what m-b-f later does with c=>cat_table
<persia> Lines 1040 and 1041 lead me to believe it's supposed to be interative
<persia> Unfortunately, I'm not getting a good idea what the context is supposed to contain at the end.  Do you have a mental model for that?
<StevenK> Not really
<persia> Grumble.  The solution to buggy .desktop files was to delete the last four characters of an icon name if the icon string contains '.'.
<persia> Not fixing the .desktop files, or anything.
<persia> OK.  Found it.
<persia> So, c->cat_table is a list of supported categories.
<persia> It gets checked against the .desktop files on line 877.
<persia> Since this is at several removes and indirections from parsing, there's no good way to pass the <Filename> hints.
<StevenK> Argh
<persia> So, either we fix m-b-f to do it right (actually parse the menus, and the .desktop files and construct something dynamically), or we build a hardcoded wedge in somewhere.
<persia> (perhaps based on some configuration file)
<StevenK> Which one is quicker? :-)
<persia> Ummm...
<persia> Well, if you know python reasonably well, and you know how to create a hildon-desktop plugin in python, there's a fairly simple API that lets you access gnome-menus from python.
<persia> Probably 200 lines of code or so.
<persia> If you know XML parsers well, and want to rip open m-b-f, parse against the DTD cleanly, and then use that to generate your icon sets, that's some fun in C.
<persia> Probably about 400 lines, but a fair number are going to be comments and braces
<StevenK> I know Python reasonably well, but I don't know how to create a hildon-desktop plugin in Python
<persia> If you want to just stuff something in, add some extra logic checking some other configuration list around line 883 of m-b-h-p.c
<persia> That's probably around 50-70 lines of C, but you'll have to operate within the context of m-b-f code, which means it will take longer than writing 50-75 lines from scratch.
<persia> You probably want to extract most of that into a separate comparison function, just to keep the concerns separate.
<StevenK> Sigh.
<StevenK> I wonder if it's just quicker to just write something in Python
<persia> I'm not sure.  Hence my lengthy answer to "Which one is quicker?" :)
<StevenK> Hah, yes
<StevenK> I'm not sure my C knowledge will stand up to hacking m-b-f either
<persia> It's exceedingly indirect C.
 * persia likes C as a *functional* language: it's a little odd when it's used as an object-oriented language
<persia> StevenK: I came up with a fairly short hack-in model.
<persia> insert around line 886
<StevenK> Woot
<StevenK> I was looking at writing a plugin in Python.
<persia> You keep doing that.  I'll test my hack and see if it actually works.
<persia> It's essentially setting a hardcoded list of names, and matching on i->name in a loop to artifically stuff i->cat = "Home" as duplicate entries.
<persia> Erm.  Actually, that won't work, because it removes the entries from their regular locations.
 * persia looks more
<StevenK> Right. I've written the hildondesktop bits
<StevenK> Where's the docs for the Python API into gnome-menus?
<persia> http://bazaar.launchpad.net/%7Eogra/ograsac-desktop/launcher/annotate/3?file_id=launcher.py-20080602112229-01ljdznuwbnymvb5-2 might help on some of the python <-> gnome-menus bits.  Mind you, that code is *not* ready for production.
<persia> Note the use of the xdg.Menu object.
 * persia grumbles about the inconvenience of test cycles for non-native environments
<persia> Right.  I'm not understanding the code well enough.  http://paste.ubuntu.com/47353/ ought to show the "Buttons" app in "Home" in m-b-f.
<StevenK> Hm
<StevenK> My Python app has broken my Q1
<persia> Well then.  How broken is it?
<StevenK> m-b-f still loads
<StevenK> But I removed the desktop file for it
<persia> Just purge it.  Your python app would be a complete replacement.
<StevenK> Trying to tell if my one is working is not helping
<StevenK> Hm.
 * persia tries to extract xfce4 from the images
<StevenK> Mine is not getting called.
<persia> Right.  I'll try another hack with C then.
<persia> By the way, how important do you think it is to be able to print from mousepad?
<StevenK> I'm not sure. Why?
<persia> Or rather, how important do you think it is to have the Xfce print manager to check on the status of printing from mousepad.
<persia> Because if mousepad doesn't Recommend xfprint4 (already seeded by xubuntu-desktop, so no impact there), then we get to drop gtk2-engines-xfce, xfce4-icon-theme, xfce4-mcs-manager, xfce4-mcs-plugins, and xfprint4
<persia> So, if you don't think it's important, I'll go double-check with the xubuntu folk, and drop the recommendation to a suggestion
 * StevenK has brutally hacked the start up script to run hildon-desktop under strace
<StevenK> Ah ha
<StevenK> WARNING **: Unknown Plugin Loader type: python
<persia> Right.  Let's hope this particular revision of lala does something useful then...
<StevenK>         * src/Makefile.am: Removed support of python. Now it's splitted
<StevenK>         * configure.ac: Removed python support.
<StevenK> From the changelog
<StevenK> of hildon-desktop, that is
<persia> I see.  I wonder what "Now it's splitted" means.  Is there another useful package?
<persia> somewhere in python-hildon perhaps?
<persia> Hrm.  Maybe not.
<StevenK> If anything python-hildondesktop
<persia> That's not something I can find though.  Is that not in Ubuntu?
<StevenK> https://code.edge.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-mobile/python-hildondesktop/ubuntu
<persia> Nope.  That version of lala just broke it entirely.
<persia> I see.  That's not in Ubuntu, and not in the PPA.
<persia> Shall we fiddle with REVU, or wait for lool (who gets to make the decision wrt REVU anyway)
<StevenK> I'm quickly building python-hildondesktop to see if that fixes it
<StevenK> hildondesktop.c:988: error: implicit declaration of function 'hildon_home_area_set_batch_add'
<StevenK> Bah
<persia> Right.  m-b-f is smarter than I.
 * StevenK gets python-hildondesktop to build
<StevenK> python-hildondesktop doesn't help
 * StevenK grumbles at m-b-f
<StevenK> What was your last version of lala?
<persia> My last version of lala was a sledgehammer: add 2 lines after line 908.  The first set i->cat, and the second appended i to c->app_list again.
<persia> The result was that *every* file showed for *every* submenu, which was very much not what I was expecting.
<persia> I even tried again after shutting down gconfd, and adjusting the .gconf configuration for the ubuntu user by hand to force inclusion of "Home" in the list.
<persia> That's when I decided m-b-f was smarter than I.
<StevenK> I think we want lool, at this point.
<persia> Right.  So, invoking the magic token to match the filter:
<persia> lool: m-b-f is broken in several ways, and we can't add a Home menu.  Trying to hack a quick replacement with python-hildondesktop didn't succeed.
<lool> hmm
<lool> I expect python stuff might be broken, and would like to receive test results
<lool> I ripped off -fm bits from python-hildon, and that was a bit crude
<StevenK> lool: The problem with the Python stuff is that hildon-desktop doesn't support Python plugins any more
<lool> Concerning mbf, what's the matter?  You're trying to get the Home menu to work?
<persia> lool: Right.
<lool> What's the current WIP?  you told mbf to parse an additional file and to use the Home menu as the default?
<persia> lool: Essentially, m-b-f doesn't actually implement the spec very well.  It conflates Categories with submenus.
<persia> lool: We've gone far beyond that.  m-b-f can't parse anything except on a Categories basis.
<lool> Well what mbf give you in the drop down are category filters so to speak
<persia> The last hack was to try to force an additional hardcoded condition in the parse_desktop_files function, which didn't work.
<persia> Right.  But we don't want category filters.  We want support for <Filename> or in the absence of that, some way to feed it a hardcoded list.
<lool> Hmm right now it just skips over anything else than category
<persia> Yep, and it does it in a way that only builds a category list, so injecting stuff there isn't very helpful.
<persia> That category list is then examined in parse_desktop_files and used as a comparator when populating the menu hash.
<persia> (specifically context->app_list)
<lool> The stupidest thing is that mbf used to call into gnome-menus in the past
<lool> as in API calls
<ogra> persia, so whats your prob with grub-installer ? 
<persia> ogra: No idea.  I need to get my virtual disks working, and troubleshoot it.
<ogra> ah
<lool> If I look at this honestly, I can only think that mbf's code to parse the menus is completely wrong; it's so wrong that I think it's fair to consider replacing mbf as you tried to do or replacing the menu parsing part
<lool> If we replace the menu parsing part, we should go with the gnome-menus lib I guess
<ogra> you need gnome-menus since it brings in the xdg parsing pieces
<lool> ogra: Right now, mbf doesn't give a shit about xdg
 * ogra can just point again to edubuntu-menus
<ogra> hmm, right, you had that hardcoded defines 
<lool> If you grep its C source for XDG, you're only going to find the two pathnames pointing at the menu files -- /etc/xdg
<persia> ogra: Nope.  m-b-f only uses applications.menu and session.menu.  We copied those by hand, and mangled them.
<persia> lool: StevenK reimplemented m-b-f in python today, but hildon-desktop won't load python modules.
<ogra> bah
<ogra> StevenK, did you have an opportunity to test the new hal-info on the Q1 ? 
 * ogra isnt sure if he got all keycodes riht to behave like in hardy 
<StevenK> ogra: I didn't, no, sorry
<ogra> no hurry :)
<StevenK> So now we get to reimplement m-b-f? :-(
<ogra> the patch is in at least ... all keys and the joystink work i can shuffle codes aroubd 
<ogra> (in case they are wrong)
<ogra> sadly the kernel uses quirk keywords in hal, no keycodes 
<ogra> thats why i'm unsure 
<StevenK> persia: matchbox-window-manager is DEPWAITing on libxsettings-client-dev
<persia> StevenK: Thanks for reading my mail for me :)  I'll go take a look.
<StevenK> Heh
<lool> StevenK: what was the issue with python modules?
<StevenK> WARNING **: Unknown Plugin Loader type: python
<StevenK> lool: ^
<lool> StevenK: You had python-hildondesktop installed?
<persia> StevenK: Well, it seems that someone arranged an MIR for it without actually promoting the dependencies.  It's been unbuildable for a while.  Shall we kick it back to universe?
<StevenK> lool: Yes
<StevenK> persia: I think that's the simplest way forward
<persia> Right.  I'll check for demotion impact
<lool> StevenK: Do you get any other error during hd startup?
<persia> StevenK: bug #270824
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 270824 in matchbox-window-manager "Please demote matchbox-window-manager to universe" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/270824
<StevenK> lool: To get that error I had to *strace* hildon-desktop
 * StevenK moves to his archive-admin hat
<lool> I think you missed an earlier error when loading python support
<lool> Ok; /me needs to finish packing; it's unlikely that I fix this today
<lool> I checked the module loading code in hildon-desktop, it's relatively straightforward so i'd look why python support doesn't work
<StevenK> lool: I don't see that error
<lool> And if we can't get python to work, we will have to revert back to gnome-menus for parsing
<StevenK> I see very little in the strace output for Python
<StevenK> persia: matchbox-window-manager demoted
<persia> StevenK: Excellent.  I'll try some rebuilds.  See, this is why pushing stuff into main isn't always ideal :)
<StevenK> persia: It was promoted for hardy
<StevenK> It built then, too
<persia> It *shouldn't* have built.
<persia> Given that the same version was in gutsy, and there was no upload for hardy, I don't believe it ever was built against the main ogre restrictions.
 * StevenK starts looking at hildon-desktop again
<persia> Towards the goal of replacing m-b-f, or is this a new goal?
<StevenK> persia: Replacing m-b-f
<StevenK> persia: Reading hildon-desktop code about "WARNING **: Unknown Plugin Loader type: python"
<persia> Bother.  libmatchbox has been manual-dependency-wait for the entire cycle because of excited MIRing
<StevenK> It needs demotion love too?
<persia> Indeed.  There are probably more.  I have the sense that the drive to promote a chunk of stuff to main was interrupted about half-way through.
<persia> Looking at the history, it seems to be fallout from bug #209870
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 209870 in acton "xsettings added back to moblin applets " [Critical,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/209870
<persia> StevenK: bug #270866
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 270866 in libmatchbox "Please demote libmatchbox from main to universe" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/270866
<StevenK> persia: Help would be welcome, if you can.
<persia> StevenK: OK.  gobby?
 * persia isn't sure how to help
<persia> Or do you mean just tracking the error, and finding out why Python doesn't load?
<StevenK> The latter.
<StevenK> Hm. python-hildondesktop should do it
<persia> StevenK: Could you paste the .desktop for your module?
<StevenK> Not easily
<persia> OK.  I'll just try to imagine it :)
<StevenK> http://paste.ubuntu.com/47438/
<persia> Thanks.
<StevenK> Ah ha
<persia> ?
<StevenK> There's a hildon-desktop-python-loader package too
<persia> heh.  That sounds like just the ticket.
<ogra> doesnt that .desktop need an Exec= line ? 
<persia> ogra: Nope.  It's not a real .desktop file.  It's just a config file for a hildon-desktop module loader
<persia> look for xdg complaince somewhere else
<ogra> heh
<persia> ogra: See http://pastebin.com/f23284f55 as an example from upstream 
<ogra> so x-path would be the executable ? 
<persia> Well, not quite.
<persia> The plugin must be in e.g. /usr/lib/hildon-desktop/$(X-Path).py
<persia> But it's not exactly executed.  It's loaded into the context.  While *everything* in hildon is run within the context, most things are specifically executed, rather than just loaded.
<persia> The difference being that loading something won't necessarily run that something unless it's providing some feature for which a hook has been received.
<persia> (which may depend on the activation of some event, or other initiation path)
<persia> StevenK: You've seen https://stage.maemo.org/svn/maemo/projects/haf/trunk/python-hildondesktop/?  Seems to be a source package that provides both binary packages.
<StevenK> It's in LP, too
<StevenK> It's installed on my Q1 now
<persia> and you successfully reimplemented m-b-f in under a day?
<StevenK> I wouldn't call it a success reimplementation
<StevenK> Still doesn't run yet
<persia> Same or different error?
<StevenK> It's loading the python code
<persia> Excellent.  That's a step in the right direction, and ought give you more flexibility in debug output options.
<StevenK> Ah ha.
<StevenK> 'import hildondesktop' breaks
<persia> \o/
<StevenK> persia: This keeps breaking
<persia> StevenK: define "this".
<StevenK> persia: python -c 'import hildondesktop'
<persia> Were you able to load your plugin?  Is it infrastructure code, or new code?
 * StevenK merges from upstream
<persia> The vcs-imports branch?
<StevenK> Yes
<persia> StevenK: I'm building 0.0.1-1ubuntu1 now for testing.  As I wait for pam_mount to time out, I'm remembering having import issues with update-manager-hildon
<persia> Specifically, when I first packaged it, I didn't provide all the right python packaging hints for it to work cleanly.
<persia> Could it be something like that ?
 * persia has only a weak understanding of python packaging
<StevenK> persia: Possibly
<ogra> there is a wikipage :)
<StevenK> persia: I'm getting unknown symbols
<persia> ogra: Indeed.  I've read it *many* times.  I tried using it to review packages, and routinely found that PAPT members would find 17 things I'd missed.
<persia> StevenK: Which symbol is unknown?
<StevenK> persia: hildon_home_area_set_layout_mode is the latest one
<StevenK> persia: There was one before that I removed.
<StevenK> Which I reverted
<persia> OK.  Are these expected python symbols, or bindings issues?
<StevenK> I thought they existed, at least
 * StevenK builds 0.0.2
<StevenK> Woot
<persia> 0.0.2 works?
<StevenK> 0.0.2 doesn't display the same problem
<persia> How many merge conflicts?
<StevenK> 3
 * persia merges
<StevenK> All of them in debian
<StevenK> It still doesn't work
<StevenK> Oh, right
<StevenK> That was the second problem I didn't fix
<StevenK> python -c 'import xdg.Menu' fails
<persia> ogra: ?
<StevenK> persia: I don't have the module
<StevenK> So I just to figure out which package I'm missing
<persia> StevenK: Right.  ogra knows which module you need.
<StevenK> python-xdg or so
<StevenK> Which source is pyxdg. *of course*
<ogra> right
<ogra> import xdg.Menu
<ogra> import xdg.Locale
<ogra> import xdg.IconTheme
<ogra> thats what i use in the ograsac launcher
<StevenK> Right, so now I think the first line of my thing probably runs
<persia> Isn't it a basic axiom that the py$(foo) source package generates the python-$(foo) binary package?
<persia> StevenK: I got conflicts in changelog and control, but I don't see the third.
<StevenK> Hm.
<StevenK> But I don't get anything showing up
<StevenK> persia: The third was due to my changing the hildon-dekstop*.install
<StevenK> I hacked 0.0.1 to support python 2.4
<StevenK> Er, 2.5
<persia> OK.  I shan't worry then.
<StevenK> Yay, progress
 * StevenK gets a hello world button to appear
 * ogra applauds
<StevenK> I think I'm missing something in terms of the menu parsing code
<StevenK> Ah ha.
<StevenK> It doesn't work since /etc/xdg/menus/* has buggered off
<persia> Oh.  You need gnome-menus back :)
<StevenK> Yes.
 * persia digs up the Home hints based on the assumption of proper XDG support
 * ogra thought python-xdg depended on gnome-menus
<persia> ogra: Shouldn't, as not everything XDG is GNOME
<StevenK> It doesn't
<ogra> ah, no there was a dep between gnome-menus and python-gmenu
<persia> Hmm.  Do we want to use python-xdg or python-gmenu?
<ogra> well, python-xdg shold suffice for a start 
<ogra> i'm not sure it respects the menu editor changes though
<StevenK> Hm
<persia> Essentially python-xdg means we do it from scratch, and are responsible for the menus.  python-gmenu means that we inherit the menus from Desktop, and can modify as we like with /etc/xdg/menus/applications-merged/
<persia> If we want to use the GNOME menu editor, we probably ought use python-gmenu.  If we're going to use python-xdg, we should populate /etc/xdg/menus/ manually.
<ogra> XDG_CONFIG_DIRS is what you need
<ogra> which is used by python-xdg
<ogra> python-gmenu will just sit on top of it
<persia> ogra: Bah.  XDG_CONFIG_DIRS should just be /etc/xdg/menus/
<persia> Changing that is a hack.
<persia> (and not in a good way)
<ogra> nah
<ogra> you can use it like the PATH variable 
<ogra> and its supposed to be like that
<ogra> XDG_CONFIG_DIRS="/my/weird/hildon/dir:/etc/xdg"
 * persia clears throat, sucks teeth, clears throat, and fails to say anythign substantive
<ogra> that way stuff gets merged automatically
<persia> Yes, but one is intended to merge stuff with DefaultMergeDirs
<persia> That's *why* DefaultMergeDirs exists.
<persia> XDG_CONFIG_DIRS should *always* be /etc/xdg/menus/ for a FHS-compliant system, or people like me who have spent hundreds of hours reading the XDG specs will get very frustrated debugging things.
<persia> (like the full day I spent trying to describe how to define a Home menu before I realised just how broken m-b-f was)
<ogra> i didnt say you should drop /etc/xdg from it :)
<ogra> just prepend the dirs you want stuff merged from
<persia> Yes, but it's ^/etc/xdg/
<persia> What do you have against DefaultMergeDirs?
<ogra>  less /etc/xdg/user-dirs.conf
<ogra> :)
<ogra> nothing
<persia> Yes, but that's so *users* can override stuff.  Not for us to touch.
<ogra> thats a system file
<persia> StevenK: In case you want it again, http://paste.ubuntu.com/47129/ should be the bits to make a Home menu with an XDG-compliant menu parser
<persia> Obviously, /etc/xdg/menus/home.menu could be longer
<StevenK> I'm trying to get it parse what I have so far
<persia> The hacked applications.menu ?
<StevenK> No, gnome-menus itself
<persia> Oh.  Right.
<StevenK> Right.
<StevenK> I have a launcher that works. Ish.
<StevenK> Looks like complete crap, too
<ogra> yay
<ogra> did you define the proper icon size ? 
<StevenK> Icon support doesn't exist yet
<ogra> oh
<StevenK> Neither does scrolling
 * StevenK will look more tomorrow
<StevenK> I find it strange I can't close anything
<persia> StevenK: Congratulations!
<StevenK> persia, ogra: http://people.ubuntu.com/~stevenk/IMG_2091.JPG
<ogra> wow, thats bling :)
<persia> Cool!  Does the drop-down work to select menus?
<StevenK> Nope
<StevenK> Since that is set via dbus
<StevenK> I need to shrink the text, and add icons
<StevenK> Essentially, I want it to look like m-b-f
<StevenK> Just without the crack
<persia> StevenK: Very nice work.  Now that you have a menu, making icons is the easy bit.
<persia> Plus, we'll get to unseed m-b-f for Alpha-6, which is one more step towards the light.
<StevenK> I'm not happy with it yet
<StevenK> So far it's only 38 lines of Python.
<StevenK> Ah ha. I thought it looked wrong
 * StevenK grumbles at Dath'Remar still being offline
<ogra> is that all buttons?
 * persia waits for another publisher cycle to *finally* build matchbox-window-manager
<ogra> in a table 
<ogra> StevenK, have a look at the iconview widget :)
<ogra> instead of using a table with buttons
<StevenK> ogra: Yeah, it's a table with buttons
<ogra> well, in the end you probably resemble ograsac launcher heh
<ogra> though your xdg handling might be saner
<StevenK> Hehe
<StevenK> My XDG handling is like 8 lines
<ogra> heh, mine too
<ogra> but mine parses the files directly as your m-b-f did ... it was a quick shot
<StevenK> ogra: My plan was add icons to the buttons
<ogra> i wouldnt use buttons
<StevenK> And change the font on the buttons to be smaller
<ogra> iconview looks cleaner 
<ogra> and gtk has an oddbehavior that doesnt let you make buttons really transparent
<ogra> an iconview can just carry a wallpaper
<ogra> i stopped focusing on the icon stuff in ograsac launcher though and went for stacked eventboxes for a special smooth scroll mechanism
<ogra> but i never finished that 
<ogra> so my launcher isnt functional at all right now
<ogra> but scrolls very sweet :)
<ogra> i.e. translation the pixels of the full lenght of the launcher logarhitmically inot the screen size 
<ogra> that way you dont have to lift your finger to scroll to top or bottom
<ogra> screen top is launcher top, screen bottom is launcher bottom when scrolling
 * ogra notices thats really hard to explain without showing it ... its pretty cool UI behavior though
<ogra> StevenK, did you check if the menu editor actually influences the applist ? 
<ogra> (i.e. does ~/config/*/*.menu get respected as it should)
<StevenK> ogra: You never implemented the actual launching bit
<ogra> i did in an old version 
<StevenK> If so, that code isn't on Launchpad
<ogra> but the eventbox is layered above the iconview and scrolledwin
<StevenK> Revision 1 still has no .connect
<ogra> oh, right
<ogra> i ditched that to work on the eventbox stuff
<StevenK> Heh
<ogra> since it first needs to translate the eventbox coordinated to iconview coordinated
<ogra> *coordinates
<ogra> then the eventbox just needs to proxy a click event to the icon
<StevenK> The finger scrolling stuff should be addable
<ogra> well, if it works :)
<StevenK> Adding a scrollbar is work for later, though
<ogra> the prob is that an eventbox layered over your app will catch clicks 
<ogra> so they dont reach the icons 
<StevenK> Yes ...
<ogra> thats the point where i had stopped with my launcher
<ogra> i should probably finish that part and you can just use it 
<persia> I'd rather start from StevenK's implementation, because it runs in the target environment, even if the other bits aren't quite as cool.
 * StevenK goes to bed before he gets tempted to rewrite bits again.
<ogra> persia, its pygtk
<ogra> there is no target arch
<persia> StevenK: wise decision
<ogra> and i developed it inside a vbox ume install 
<persia> ogra: Not "envionment" as architecture, but "environment" as hildon, and I thought ograsac was non-hildon.
<ogra> no,, its not but the launcher is a plain pygtk app
<StevenK> Mine isn't
<StevenK> Mine is a Hildon Desktop python plugin
<ogra> ah
<persia> This is why I want to start from StevenK's launcher
 * StevenK adds eight fixme items
<StevenK> "# - Actually launching stuff"
<persia> Bother.  It does need another publisher cycle.
<ogra> StevenK, http://paste.ubuntu.com/47490/
<ogra> that has the exec bit
<ogra> (on_select())
<ogra> surely needs improvement
<ogra> oh, that launcher still works actually
#ubuntu-mobile 2008-09-17
<ia> hello, everybody. Could you tell me please, does exists some howto about installing ubuntu mobile at nokia internet tablets (such as n800/n810)? Is that possible to install ubuntu mobile at this devices?
<ia> oh, i've already found answer to my question: "Ubuntu does not currently provide ARM binaries for any flavour." :-)
<persia> ogra: When you are around, please consider merging  lp:~persia/ubuntu-seeds/mobile.intrepid
<theseinfeld> lool
<theseinfeld> lool, you changed the xserver-xorg-video-psb to get the redirection to libexa.so.xserver-xorg-core
<theseinfeld> lool now I am getting a strange error when starting X on the hardware: failed to load module Xpsb module does not exist. Any idea why?
<ogra> StevenK, did you catch my paste with the launcher code yesterday ?
<ogra> persia, done
<StevenK> ogra: Yes
<ogra> good
<StevenK> ogra: http://people.ubuntu.com/~stevenk/IMG_2095.JPG
<ogra> SWEET !!
<StevenK> ogra: And http://people.ubuntu.com/~stevenk/IMG_2096.JPG
<ogra> wow
<StevenK> ogra: With a large license notice, it's less than 100 lines of Python
<ogra> yeah :)
<StevenK> Now, tell me I'm awesome :-P
<ogra> if i'm back from berlin i'll care for some gtkrc hacking so we get wide scrollbars 
<ogra> youre awesome StevenK \o/
<StevenK> :-D
<ogra> how long does it take to start up ? 
<ogra> i tested my old code yesterday when i found it again and noticed it easily takes 20sec
<ogra> but that might be the odd way of parsing the .menu files
<StevenK> Um. Not sure
<StevenK> hildon-desktop is a pig itself, so not much on top of that
<ogra> yep
<ogra> did you try wth 36px icons instead of 48px ? that could give us 5 in a row and get rid of the big whitespace on the right 
<StevenK> That's 64 pixels
<ogra> oh
<ogra> another option would be to put the iconview in a hbox and add something on the left and right sides ... i guess it looks better if centerd
<ogra> *centered
<ogra> though that will get hard with wallpapers ... 
<StevenK> I'd rather it was transparent, too, but I couldn't do that
<ogra> well, we need a ui for setting background colors and/or wallapers that appl to teh iconview i guess
<StevenK> We have one, it just works below that
<Celtiore> hi
<ogra> bgcol = gtk.gdk.color_parse('#584c40')
<ogra> fgcol = gtk.gdk.color_parse('#ffffff')
<ogra> iconview.modify_base(gtk.STATE_NORMAL, bgcol)
<ogra> iconview.modify_text(gtk.STATE_NORMAL, fgcol)
<ogra> from my code 
<ogra> iconview.modify_base is the background
<StevenK> I think it gets set in gconf, so I'll look at it tomorrow
<StevenK> ogra: Yes, I've already done it.
<ogra> ah, k :)
<Celtiore> ogra, i have one question please :p
<ogra> Celtiore, shoot
<Celtiore> do you have infos about aigo p8860 and idctouch drivers for last kernel version ? 
<ogra> Celtiore, apart from the fact that you come up quite often in a google search for it ? no ... :)
<Celtiore> i find : http://article.gmane.org/gmane.comp.handhelds.moblin.devel/252
<Celtiore> last time, persia says to ask to you
<ogra> yes, i try to get the X/hal side of things working
<ogra> the prob with it is the closed driver 
<Celtiore> yes, we need to wait gigabyte m528 perhaps ?
<ogra> if i dont get a /dev/input/eventX for it i cant do much about it 
<Celtiore> some guys talk about ubuntu mobile on m528
<ogra> and that device is provided by udev if a working kernel driver exists
<ogra> do you have the system working aart from that ? 
<ogra> *apart
<Celtiore> yes
<Celtiore> one guys releases ubuntu 7.10 with idctouch drivers from orignal midinux aigo, and i put last 8.04.1 to test
<Celtiore> i try the evtouch driver, but when i touch the screen, cursor move randomly
<Celtiore> sorry for my bad english :p
<ogra> oh, thats good
<ogra> (randomly moving means you get events
<ogra> )
<Celtiore> yes
<ogra> do you use the nid desktop or a normal ubuntu one ? 
<ogra> afaik the only working calibration tool we currently have is in miblin-applets
<ogra> *moblin
<Celtiore> mid desktop
<Celtiore> but it's not a calibration problem
<Celtiore> i have try the evtouch calibration tool, and nothing good
<ogra> nah, thats crap
<ogra> the one from the mid desktop is working 
<ogra> i'll try to fix the evtouch one for intrepid but didnt come around to that yet
<Celtiore> ok
<ogra> StevenK, btw, are you happy with the joystick and buttons ?
<StevenK> ogra: I've not checked :-)
<ogra> :)
<persia> ogra: Thanks.  -mobile ought work on lpia now :)
<ogra> great 
<ogra> did you see scotts screenshots ? 
<ogra> ergh
<ogra> stevens 
<ogra> *sigh*
<ogra> so sorry .... :/
<persia> Yep.  I'm *very* excited.  I've been looking forward to seeing that for a couple months now.
<ogra> you shuould have told me :P my old launcher would have worked already i bet
<ogra> not as sweet as stevens but enough to show something 
 * ogra would love to finish that event translator for it at some point ... so we could get rid of all scrollbars 
<ogra> (in the launcher only though)
<davmor2> ogra: link?
<ogra> for the screenshot ? 
<ogra> http://people.ubuntu.com/~stevenk/IMG_2095.JPG
<ogra> and http://people.ubuntu.com/~stevenk/IMG_2096.JPG with selected category
<davmor2> cool :)
<ogra> about 100 lines of py code incl. license :)
<ogra> and properly using xdg
<ian_brasil> maybe i asked this already ..i forgot but anyway..in /usr/share/ume-config-common/ume-gui-start
<ian_brasil>  why is the matchbox theme hardcoded to mobilebasic
<ian_brasil> and why does the matchbox theme.xml have lots of maemo images stillin it
<ian_brasil> things like qgn_plat_application_status_bar_background.png 
<persia> Erm.  Maybe someone thought it was a good theme and didn't want to create a theme selector?  Also, perhaps the theme was created by copying something from Maemo and editing it?
 * persia doesn't know the real answer, and is just guessing
<persia> Anyway, ume-config-common was dropped for intrepid, so the next release oughtn't have that problem.
<persia> Do you see the same behaviour in the 8.10 images?
<ian_brasil> i will have a look
<persia> Thanks.  I'm tempted to just ignore all the bugs in ume-config-common, unless they break some functionality significantly, as we've dropped the package, but I'm concerned about any behaviours that are undesireable.
<ian_brasil> persia: i am downloading the current image now..i pulled the source of hildon-theme-mobile-basic-0.37 which has these maemo images still in it which seems rather odd
<persia> Then the new image probably has it.  I'm not sure there's been any significant changes to hildon-theme-mobile-basic
<persia> Are the images non-free, or just suprisingly duplicated?
<ian_brasil> they are Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike 2.5 i believe..maybe it is that ume does not use these dialog images and it busts gtkrc if you remove them
<persia> Could be.  I don't know much about themes, and I don't know that we've anyone specific who is chasing the themes and art for either of Ubuntu MID or Ubuntu Mobile.
<persia> It's probably just leftovers because they happened to work and so there was no bug that attracted someone's attention.
<persia> If you've a replacement .gtkrc that you think would work better, I'm sure that it could be reviewed.
<ian_brasil> i just changed the colors like style "osso-logical-colors" {
<ian_brasil> 	color["DefaultTextColor"]        = "#303030"
<ian_brasil> 	color["EmpTextColor"]            = "#204a87"
<ian_brasil> 	color["PaintedDefaultTextColor"] = "#ffffff"
<ian_brasil> 	color["DisabledTextColor"]       = "#babdb6"
<ian_brasil> 	color["ProgressTextColor1"]      = "#000000"
<ian_brasil> the file is nearly 8000 lines long so a bit scary
<persia> Yeah :)
<robr> smagoun / tonyespy : ping
<smagoun> robr: pong
<tonyespy> robr: pong 
<robr> tonyespy / smagoun: hi. do you guys ever see that boot hang on menlow where during kernel startup the system hangs for a while and then continues booting after a period of time
<smagoun> robr: yup
<robr> how frequently?
<smagoun> robr: We saw it primarily (only?) on install
<smagoun> Happened almost always on install
<robr> any chance you guys can try an experiment where you build the install boot kernel with the HPET timer disabled and see if it still happens?
<robr> smagoun: i guess that is a no
<tonyespy> robr: according to ChickenCutlass, we explicity has to set the hpet as the clock source to get past the hang
<smagoun> robr: I think we've been doing that since Feb. Checking now
<tonyespy> robr: i'll leave to smagoun though...
<smagoun> robr: tony's right - we use clocksource=hpet:
<smagoun> usb_kernel_cmdline = initrd=initrd.img boot=usb clocksource=hpet
<smagoun> robr: you're suggesting that we *not* use the HPET instead?
<robr> smagoun: so with the clocksource=hpet, you don't see the boot hang issue?
<smagoun> robr: correct
<robr> smagoun: i'm trying to find out if the boot hang problem you see is related to an hpet timer issue
<robr> and issue in the chipset
#ubuntu-mobile 2008-09-18
<persia> Meeting in #ubuntu-meeting in 5 minutes
<persia> davidm: You need a MID with a proper offset keyboard, and useful tactile response.
<ogra> persia, the n810 kbd is quite good, just missing some essentials like the tab key
<persia> ogra: Isn't it one of those that implements the silly idea that one should have the keyboard be a regular grid?
 * persia goes and looks at images before spreading more FUD
<persia> Yeah.  That's exactly the keyboard style that has convinced me not to make a purchase previously.
<ogra> its a qwerty
<ogra> but yes, in a grid layout
 * ogra is running out of battery
<persia> (the actual product I didn't buy for this reason was http://technabob.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2007/02/sharp_em_one.jpg)
<ogra> just needs a bit of getting used to
<persia> ogra: We can chat about foolishness in keyboard layouts adn thumb-based ergonomics another time then.  Go find some joules.
<ogra> loic made me intrested in another smoke ... which i'll do now :P
<ogra> bbl
<ian_brasil> i downloaded the current image last night and the the desktop icons are still mixed up
<ian_brasil> for instance clicking a terminal starts time and date which then hangs in kvm
<persia> Yeah.  The launcher isn't working.  A replacement is underway: see http://people.ubuntu.com/~stevenk/IMG_2096.JPG for a screenshot of the work-in-progress
<persia> (and yes, not having a white background might make that prettier, but that's not so critical as it actually launching the selected program)
<persia> Apparently it's gone from being ~1800 lines of C to ~70 lines of python.
<StevenK> It now has a black background
<ian_brasil> cool
 * persia failed to remember that the URL would be a highlight (x_x);
<ian_brasil> any idea when this will be ready and intrepid images willwork?
<persia> There was an action item to get the updated launcher into the repos at the meeting just concluded.  If they aren't in the Saturday images, they ought be in the Tuesday images. (I have little faith they will be in the weekend images)
<ian_brasil> persia: thanks
<tonyespy> DebbieFoghorn: which Dennis PV unit do you have right now ( SKU / SN )?
<latouche> which window manager is used by ubuntu mobile?
<latouche> it looks quite nice
<persia> latouche: matchbox
<persia> latouche: Note that matchbox itself is quite limited.  I suspect you're being impressed the envionment more generally, rather than just the WM.
<latouche> i already tried matchbox but the screenshots i see on ubuntu website are much more beautiful
<latouche> maybe that i need a lot of tweaking :)
<latouche> i will probably test ubuntu mobile
<persia> latouche: Which screenshots?
<latouche> is there a "live cd" that i can boot from a usb key?
<latouche> http://www.ubuntu.com/products/mobile >> here persia 
<persia> There's a live-environment USB key for intrepid, but it has several issues (like the launcher launching the wrong applications).  For hardy, there is no available live environment.
<persia> latouche: The top screenshot is roughly accurate.  I'm not sure how the two at the bottom were generated.
<persia> Probably some example OEM/ODM customisations of some sort (guessing by the nearby text)
<latouche> ok
<latouche> http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-mid/intrepid/current/ >> is this one the live-environment ?
<persia> Yep, but it's quite buggy, so be careful.
<Graham70> good day room 
<latouche> thanks persia 
<persia> latouche: What hardware are you using?
<latouche> an eee pc 701
<persia> I suspect you'll find the interface interesting, but a little confining after a while.  There's work-in-progress to generate a flavour (Ubuntu Mobile) that's more well suited for that sort of device, but there aren't any images yet.
<latouche> well, i'll test it and maybe install it or keep the good ideas for my current system
<latouche> but, first, i'm going to bed
<latouche> good night/evening/morning/...
<persia> latouche: Have a good night.
<latouche> thanks
<crevette> heya
<crevette> persia: around?
<persia> crevette: Usually.
<crevette> :)
<crevette> hello
<crevette> did you manage to merge bluez-gnome ?
<persia> I haven't looked at it.  slytherin was chasing it last weekend, but I don't remember the results.
<crevette> I can perhaps do it right now
<crevette> my son is sleeping for a while
<crevette> :)
<persia> crevette: That would be great!  I was heading to bed, but I'll stay up to review/check/test the results.
<crevette> ah already ? where do you live ?
<crevette> just give the steps, and I'll do the merge
<crevette> then I'll put the package somewhere and mail you once done
<crevette> No sure how long my son will continue to sleep
<persia> I live in Japan (where it's late).
<persia> Steps are to grab the new upstream package, review the changes in the Debian package between 0.25 and 0.27 and see if there's any patches we want, review the patches we have against 0.25 to see what is already upstream, and what is still required, and then put it all together into a 0.28 source package.
<crevette> okay
<crevette> I'll try to do that tonight
<persia> crevette: Good luck.  If you only finish part, but you can post your results somewhere, that could be helpful for the next person.
<persia> I did a quick look at 0.27 vs 0.28 for Debian, and found that 0.28 was compatible with the 0.27 Debian packaging.
<ethana2> Okay, I'm running ubuntu desktop edition combined with netbook edition
<ethana2> i found that ubuntu netbook edition had some great tools that i now rely upon with my new ubuntu dell
<ethana2> i was wondering if there may be any similar packages in ubuntu mobile..
<ethana2> hmm
<ethana2> ethan@home:~$ install ubuntu-mobile
<ethana2> whoa, looks like i found it
<ethana2> okay, if i install this metapackage, i'll have another session option to load from gdm, correct?
<persia> If you're running intrepid, that should do the right thing.  If you're running hardy, you may get unexpected results.
<ethana2> Also, will I be able to use a mouse with it?
<ethana2> oh
<ethana2> i'll probably be installing intrepid today with alpha 6
<persia> For hardy, the metapackage for Ubuntu MID is confusingly named "ubuntu-mobile".  It has a different way of doing many things.
<persia> For intrepid, this was resolved, and the ubuntu-mobile metapackage should provide a good experience for those with 7-9" devices.
<ethana2> well i have a 14" inspiron 1420n
<persia> I understand there are still a few bugs to be ironed out, but it should work fine with a mouse, etc.
<ethana2> but i use window-picker-applet from ubuntu netbook and maximus
<ethana2> oh sweet
<persia> I find your use case surprising, but then I'm the sort of person who runs full -desktop on a 7" laptop.
<ethana2> well the window list applet is visually noisy as heck
<ethana2> and when i want to do one task at a time, title bars are simply a waste of space
<ethana2> plus having the close window button in the top panel brings me more into harmony with Fitt's law
<ethana2> ok, looks like alpha 6 hasn't gone gold yet
<ethana2> persia: don't mind my use cases, they surprise /everyone/
<persia> I guess.  I tend to like to have at least two windows (the thing I'm changing and the thing to which I'm referring for data).
<ethana2> i'd love to have two side by side frames; two workspaces on one screen
 * ethana2 shrugs
<persia> ethana2: Of course :)  You may find ubuntu-mobile is perfect for you, despite not having the hardware expected for use with it.
<ethana2> exactly what i'm figuring
<persia> Yeah.  Two side-by-side is good.  If you use terminal apps a lot, and like the fullscreen model, you can do that with terminator.
<ethana2> the thing i really love about maximus is the way it helps me work with compiz
<ethana2> i have this..  urge to keep everything minimized
<ethana2> ....but if i can only see one window at a time, the urge goes away and i can use the cover flow switcher
<ethana2> (X windows don't exist when minimized and the compiz folks think it's 'hackish' to cache mipmaps)
<persia> Interesting.  Highlighting the compiz cover flow switcher may be interesting in mobile.  I'm curious how it works from ubuntu-mobile without the netbook-remix stuff.
<ethana2> i had to take ghex2 to my compiz binaries because of an apple patent, you know, for the genie effect
<ethana2> ....went to the linux mint irc channel to ask them how they handled that but i didn't get a response
<persia> I don't know anything about that.  I don't actually use compiz where I can avoid it (saves battery life for me).
<ethana2> i turn it off for battery life also
<ethana2> along with my wireless and screen brightness
<ethana2> my 56 WHr battery lasts 2.5 H, which is pretty good
<persia> crevette: I'm going to have to wish you luck.  Please post your results for however far you get, and I'll take an interested look when I return.
#ubuntu-mobile 2008-09-19
<ian_brasil> i have some question about the installation of an image to a device
<persia> ian_brasil: What's the question?
<ian_brasil> it copies the content of the image to the device like (e.g. /dev/sda1)
<ian_brasil> and then does syslinux /dev/sda1
<ian_brasil> ?
<persia> For hardy or intrepid?
<ian_brasil> intrepid
<persia> (the installers are rather incredibly different)
<persia> Right.  It formats the target disk, copies the contents of the squashfs onto the target, configures a couple outstanding things, removes a bunch of installer-related packages, and is supposed to do the grub install.
<persia> I know the grub install didn't work a few days ago, but I've not tested since adding the lpia hint for grub-install (and hope to get that working today).
<ian_brasil> and the partitioning of the disk...how is this?
<persia> It's a flexible wizard.
<persia> You can give the installer-in-progress a test by running "ubiquity" from a terminal, or DISPLAY=:0.0 ubiquity from an alternate virtual console.
<persia> I've not added an icon for it because 1) there were reports it didn't work perfectly yet, 2) the launcher has issues anyway, and 3) I haven't gotten to it yet.
<ian_brasil> persia: np..thx for the info
<latouche> persia: where are you in japan?
<persia> latouche: TOkyo.
<latouche> then we are not far
<latouche> i am in tokyo too for an internship
<crevette> hello
<persia> Good morning crevette
<crevette> persia, hey
<crevette> persia, I didn't finish the merge, but from what I seen it is not tha difficult; I'm only stuck with the patch from fedora
<persia> crevette: Which patch?
<crevette> in bluez-gnome
<crevette> http://patches.ubuntu.com/b/bluez-gnome/extracted/80_from_fedora_fix_nautilus_sendto_compatibility.patch
<crevette> it's doesn't apply cleanly
 * persia looks at the upstream VCS history
<crevette> I tried to get the git branch but I'm not really fluent with git so I didn't cuceed
<crevette> succeed
<persia> crevette: It appears that Fedora did have 0.28 at one point, and had an updated patch.  I'm attempting to dig it out now.
<persia> crevette: Try the following:
<persia> export CVSROOT=:pserver:anonymous@cvs.fedoraproject.org:/cvs/pkgs
<persia> cvs co bluez-gnome
<persia> Take a look at the bluez-gnome/F-9/bluez-gnome-sendto-palm.patch.
<persia> I think that's the right one, although I could be mistaken.
<persia> More generally, the patches in bluez-gnome/F-9/ will be all the Fedora patches for 0.28.
<persia> Hrm.  Actually, the bluez-gnome-sendto-palm.patch file may not actually be applied.
<persia> There are three patches though, that probably would benefit from review: take a look at the files listed from grep ^Patch[0-9] bluez-gnome/F-9/bluez-gnome.spec
<mgolisch> is there a ubuntu version for netbooks?
<mgolisch> MID seems to be for touchscreen enabled things like tablet pcs and such
<BenLauDC> Betbook remix
<BenLauDC> Netbook Remix
<mgolisch> looks nice
<persia> Erm, that's not strictly an Ubuntu version, but it's about as close as exists for hardy.
<persia> For intrepid, there's work in progress for a proper flavour to handle that use case, called Ubuntu Mobile.
<ian_brasil> anyone used the battery toolkit from intel?
<ian_brasil> i just ran a test and it shows capacity of the battery dropping down after load 10..but 10 what?
<ian_brasil> maybe i will ask in moblin
<crevette> persia: around
<latouche> I've just tested ubuntu-mid on my eee pc
<latouche> the interface is really beautiful
<latouche> but I had no network ...
<latouche> the drivers (atl2 and madwifi) are missing
<ian_brasil> what is hppa? i am reading through the changes in the mobile-meta package
<sgeorge> anyone in here have experience with Jax10 platform image setup?
<sgeorge> I successfully built a USB install image. It installs and boots up on an Aigo Mid. No touchscreen or Wifi seem to be working.
<sgeorge> any suggestions as to which packages I would need to complete the target?
#ubuntu-mobile 2008-09-20
<ian_brasil> i just updated to the intrepid version of kvm and when i run it it gives
<ian_brasil> kvm
<ian_brasil> QEMU PC emulator version 0.9.1 (kvm-72), Copyright (c) 2003-2008 Fabrice Bellard
<ian_brasil> usage: qemu [options] [disk_image]
<ian_brasil> why is itusing qemu?
<persia> ian_brasil: hppa is the Hewlett Packard Precision Architecture (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PA-RISC_family).  I don't know of any portable devices that use it, but it's supported for Ubuntu and we try to be relatively architecture-independent.
<ian_brasil> persia: ok
<sgeorge> could someone point me to a touchscreen driver for jax-10?
<persia> sgeorge: Celtiore is probably your best guide for the Aigo MID.  I'm not sure who can help with the Jax10
<sgeorge> i have an aigo
<persia> ian_brasil: Also, KVM is based heavily on qemu: it's basically a branch of qemu that uses the processor shortcuts, rather than either true emulation or the kqemu modules.
<ian_brasil> ok..before when it executes in the title pane it said kvm/qemu but now just qemu so maybe i am using just the software emulation
<ian_brasil> all the kvm checks look ok
<persia> sgeorge: Then you're the second person here who does.  From reading traffic, I remember there being issues with touchscreen calibration, but I don't know if they are solved.  I don't remember seeing traffic about the WiFi modules: http://www.umpcportal.com/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=3672&forum=31 might have some useful pointers.
<persia> ian_brasil: Is it incredibly painfully slow?  If not, it may just be that the qemu team and KVM team are moving more towards a common codebase.
<sgeorge> yes I have been following that thread. And Yes I saw a bug listed for calibration not working. But I think that the actual driver isnt packaged in the distribution due to licensing....
<ian_brasil> well i dunno..it is quite difficult to judge latency!..i will have a play tomorrow anyway
<sgeorge> i did install a 7.01 build that worked but it had to many other issues to be usable
<ian_brasil> i backported the kvm in intrepid to hardy
<persia> ian_brasil: heh.  Yeah.  My experience with running non-KM qemu on an A110@800MHz was that it took about 15 minutes for the image to boot.  If you're not seeing that level of latency, you're probably using the accelleration.
<ian_brasil> ah cool...then it is using kvm
<persia> Good.  It's probably just closer merging with qemu then, which is good, because then there's fewer lines of code to maintain, and we'll likely see more improvements.
<ian_brasil> i wish they nad not change the window title though..ijust spent a couple of hours thinking that 1. my backport had not worked 2. I was completely dumb for not working out why kvm was not running
<persia> Yeah, that's a little confusing.  You might file a bug: if nothing else, the change ought be listed in the release notes.
 * ian_brasil looks for release notes
<persia> They aren't written yet :)  But filing a bug ought get the ubuntu-virt team to either add it to the release notes or to change the user-visible behaviour.
<persia> There could possibly be something in /usr/share/doc/kvm/ but that's not very visible.
<Celtiore> hi
<persia> Celtiore: Hey.  You just missed sgeorge who also has the Aigo.
<Celtiore> yep i see
<Celtiore> 05:21:15 :p
<Celtiore> <persia> sgeorge: Celtiore is probably your best guide for the Aigo MID.  I'm not sure who can help with the Jax10
<persia> Heh.  Oops.
<crevette> hello
<crevette> persia: hey
<persia> crevette: Hey.
<crevette> persia: I did some review of the patches
<persia> crevette: Anything useful there?
<crevette> so from F-9 I took bluez-gnome-0.26-handle-error because it display a message on tranfer error a,d nit could help on other bug to know what happen when it fails
<persia> Cool.  Were you able to prepare a candidate for testing?
<crevette> I didn't took bluez-gnome-remove-class-file-sharing because it disable file sharing over bluuetooth; because fedora installs gnome-user-share and it does the same function
<crevette> so they conflict
<crevette> I put bluez-gnome-0.28-services-running but I didn't understand what it solves, I see it was had to avoid a crash on pairing
<crevette> s/had/added/
<crevette> persia: I don't know if I have to take the patch 000_bluetooth-applet-xfce.patch from debian
 * persia looks
<crevette> I updated the patch 99_automake
<crevette> persia: you can find the package at https://launchpad.net/~bmillemathias/+archive
<persia> I'd probably grab 000_bluetooth-applet-xfce.patch.  It looks minimal, but useful.
<crevette> I kept it in the package
<persia> Cool.  I'm grabbing the merge now.
<crevette> I'd need to change the changelog format
<crevette> I'm not sure I use the rightone
<persia> Yeah, and collapse the last couple entries, but the current stuff is good for testing.
<crevette> persia: you'll try it
<crevette> I didn't have a lot to try
<persia> I'll test it for audio and comms.  We need someone to test keyboard and mouse.
<crevette> I can only test it for file transfert
<crevette> I don't have input device
<persia> I'll look in a shop tomorrow and see if I can find an inexpensive bluetooth keyboard or mouse, but I don't really want to spend too much just to test it :)
<crevette> :)
<persia> For debian/rules, it would be nice to add --enable-hildon to DEB_CONFIGURE_EXTRA_FLAGS for lpia.  That would make it work better with the hildon framework for Ubuntu MID.
<persia> (yes, this isn't the right way to do it, but nobody runs Desktop on lpia anyway)
<crevette> I don't know :/
<persia> changelog looks pretty good, but you'll want to add the old Ubuntu changelog entries, and mention that you've merged with Debian.
<crevette> persia: where I had the ubuntu changelog, as the latest in 0.25 for ubuntu and 0.27 for debian
<persia> crevette: Right.  It's considered best practice to extract each of the changelog entries that show Ubuntu variation and insert them in the Debian changelog when merging.
<persia> I can probably do that within the next hour, if the above doesn't make sense.
<crevette> persia: http://dpaste.com/79311/
<crevette> you want the changelog like that
<persia> No: for the new entry, what you did is perfect.
<crevette> okay
<persia> Take a look at 0.11-0ubuntu1 ... 0.13-1 ... 0.13-1ubuntu1 at http://changelogs.ubuntu.com/changelogs/pool/main/b/bluez-gnome/bluez-gnome_0.25-0ubuntu2/changelog
<persia> See how the Debian and Ubuntu entries are interleaved?
<crevette> persia: not sure, but I forgot to modified the maintainer field also
<persia> Oops.  Yeah, that too :)
<persia> crevette: I've got to run off for a bit, but I'll take another look (and put together the changelog if you need) as soon as I get back.
<crevette> okay
<xsacha> hi
<xsacha> hey, any progress on ubuntu MID on ARM? also, how is the touchscreen support?
<persia> xsacha: Ubuntu MID on ARM won't happen until Ubuntu generally supports ARM.  No MID-specific progress.
<xsacha> k thx
<persia> Touchscreen support is fairly good for some devices, and there's a reasonable framework to provide hints for anything using evdev, although the number of hints files isn't particularly large right now.
<persia> https://launchpad.net/+builds is probably a good page to watch if you are curious about architecture support, although I suspect there will be some sort of announcement if/when ARM is properly supported.
<xsacha> also, will it ever be supporting radios? (phone)
<persia> xsacha: That's really a kernel thing, rather than specific to Ubuntu MID.
<persia> Personally, I expect to see good support for embedded 3G modems well before there is proper support for phones.
<persia> Mind you, there's no reason there couldn't be an Ubuntu Phone flavour, but I suspect it's likely to be different.  Ubuntu MID targets 4-6" screens, and is more for the PDA/MID/pocket tablet sort of use case.
<persia> I suppose it might work for a phone, but having a MID that is even smaller (3.5" screen and not running Ubuntu) that also works as a phone, I'll say that generally the UI for phones is really different than the UI for MIDs, and that trying to have one thing that works for both is probably not ideal.
<persia> GIven the recent news of Debian on the OpenMoko, I wouldn't expect it to be too hard to get something working on a phone-like device for Ubuntu 9.04 (assuming processor support), but it's not likely to be Ubuntu MID (unless more manufacuturers decide to make ~400g "phones")
<ach> oh ok, i read this on xda: http://forum.xda-developers.com/showpost.php?p=2346047&postcount=5
<persia> ach: There are a number of community efforts currently underway to port Ubuntu to ARM, including a few people who run it on the Zaurus.
<persia> Ubuntu MID is a fairly good flavour for the Zaurus (although I really need to fix mine and test that).
<ach> k
<persia> But a Zaurus is *not* a phone.  There are some phones that are that big, but most of them don't make for very good phones.
<persia> Sharp's most recent significantly oversized phone (the D4) comes with a separate bluetooth handset with a dial-pad because Sharp knows it's not a very good phone :)
<persia> Some of the HTC devices are about the right size, but again, aren't very good phones.
<persia> Ubuntu MID is really targeted at things like the Nokia n810 or the Zaurus (except using lpia processors, so it doesn't work on these).
<ach> the new sharp ones are winmob tho, right?
<ach> is it still easy to change ROM to a linux distro like ubuntu?
<persia> Yeah, but Ubuntu MID will support them (although maybe not the phone).  Some people have been testing with the Aigo MID.
<ach> oo ok
<persia> I suspect there are some other devices that work, but the Sharp D4 and the Aigo MID are the only two that I know people are using that match the intended spec.
<persia> You could probably use it on the little Fujitsu devices as well, but I've not yet heard any reports about success/failure.
<lool> persia: Not sure you should mention non-lpia devices as examples of what Ubuntu MID is targetting :-P
<persia> lool: Well, most people have never heard of the D4 or the Aigo.  It's the use-case I'm trying to describe.
<persia> The Gigabyte M528 might be the right size.
<persia> Or the BenQ S6
<ach> is lpia for specific devices or does it work with any i386?
<persia> ach: It's targeted for the A100, A110, and Atom processors, but it also works on many other newer i386 processors (but may not take full advantage of those processors).
<ach> ok
 * ach dreams of a day when this fully locked-up winmob samsung i780 runs linux
<persia> ach: What kind of bootloader does that have?  One of the reasons it's easy to load something different for lpia devices is that they tend to have a fairly normal PC BIOS, and let you boot off USB.
<ach> hardSPL i think?
<ach> "The good thing about SGH i780 is that the bootloader seems to run on a very sturdy HardSPL which makes it very resilient to rom changes"
<persia> heh.  That's not very promising.
<persia> It's well off topic here, but it seems some of the xda-dev folk have a linux hack for HardSPL.  Might try there.
<ach> k
<persia> Probably several steps to get Ubuntu, but linux might be possible (mind you, I have no idea how this might affect the use of the device as a phone)
<ach> o well im satisfied with the winmo (this device is fast!) so i might just upgrade to 6.1 :)
<ach> one day..
<crevette> hello
<persia> crevette: Hey.  Did you get the changelog sorted out?  Shall I post my version?
<crevette> persia: post your
<crevette> yours
<crevette> I was away
<persia> No problem.  Hold on a minute whist I collect it.
<crevette> persia: in the log you can say the new upstream fixes https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/bluez-gnome/+bug/258738
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 258738 in bluez-gnome "intrepid regression: bluetooth services without name in tab "Services"" [Undecided,Confirmed] 
<persia> http://paste.ubuntu.com/48624/ should include everything.
<persia> Let me just check a couple things...
<persia> Yep.  Just remember to set XSBC-Original-Maintainer: in your control file.
<persia> You'll need to bump to 0.28-0ubuntu1~ppa3 if you upload to the PPA again, and if it looks good, change to 0.28-0ubuntu1 when attaching a debdiff to 258738
<crevette> okay
<crevette> thanks persia
<crevette> I seen what was missing in the changelog
<persia> crevette: Thank you *very* much.  This is something I've wanted to do for a couple months, but it's never risen to the top of my TODO list.  I really appreciate your help to get it all merged and the latest available patches applied.
<crevette> :)
<crevette> thanks it could help you
<crevette> persia: who should I set as maintainer ? you N
<crevette> ?
<persia> No.  " Ubuntu Core Developers <ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com>"
<persia> I'm not actually one of them :)
<crevette> okay
<persia> We'll have to get one to upload it, but if the three of us who are most interested all report good test results, I suspect we ought be able to do that.
<crevette> persia: it's build on tmy ppa
<persia> crevette: Excellent.  It's late for me here, but I'll be testing it in 16 or 17 hours.  slytherin has said he will try to test it sooner.
<persia> I presume it's working perfectly for you?
<crevette> I need to do further testing
<persia> heh.  We probably can't get it uploaded until Monday anyway so there's a bit of time.
<crevette> persia: I can put a comment on bluez-gnome bugs to ask for testing for those using intrepid ?
<persia> crevette: At least for 258738.  Are you expecting it to close any other bugs?
<persia> I think it also closes 256994
<persia> crevette: In fact, it appears I'm still assigned to 256994.  I'll assign that to you :)
<crevette> hey
<persia> You're doing all the work :)  If anyone has questions about the status, you're a better person to ask.  I'm happy to help you, but I don't think I should get credit for working on it when you are actually doing it.
<crevette> bah I did nothing
<crevette> vredits goes upstream, fedora and debian
<persia> If you think that's nothing, ask me in November: there's a lot of nothing needs doing :), but yes, credit for it actually working belongs indeed to those who are solving the problems, and not those who are preparing the solution for the Ubuntu users.
<persia> Anyway, good luck with the tests: I must be away
<crevette> persia: good night
<ian_brasil> persia: i found this link http://www.linuxquestions.org/questions/linux-general-1/use-squashfs-as-647320/  to install the ume image/squashfs etc by hand it looks more or less like this? 
<ian_brasil> ah sorry ..it must be late there in japan
<persia> ian_brasil: Well, for hardy, kinda.  Personally, I think that's not a very good way to do it because of how updates apply to a system.  A system constructed that way is a poor choice for developers, and can be awkward for end users if there are a number of updates.
<persia> (yes, well past my bedtime)
<persia> For intrepid, the plan is to not use the squashfs on the installed system.  The majority of devices available these days have at least 4GB of storage, which is sufficient to not use a squashfs (including space for user data).  Many devices have significantly more (30GB is not too hard).
<persia> Depending on how the device market develops, and what devices people tend to have, I'd be open to revisiting this for jaunty, but only if there is significant market penetration of devices with less than 4G available secondary storage.
<ian_brasil> ah cool ...but what about a device without that luxury?
<persia> Of course, I'm not the only person with an opinion, so it may be that we'll definitely do squashfs for jaunty if enough others feel strongly about it.
<persia> Do you know of any currently available devices that don't have 4G secondary storage?
<persia> Also, for an equipment manufacturer use-case, there's no reason one couldn't build an image for flashing on the device that included a squashfs.
<persia> (mind you, this would involve some effort on the part of the OEM or IHV, but not so much: it's just a change to the initrd and a different way of formatting the disks)
<ian_brasil> not offhand but maybe some kiosk type devices?
<ian_brasil> and manufactures look to have less space in order to reduce costs
<persia> I could see that, but 4G is rapidly dropping in price, and if one is building a kiosk, I'd guess that using a full flavour is probably overkill anyway: be better to just pull some smaller subset of packages.
<persia> (for example, the kiosk probably doesn't need all the different networking tools, or all of open office, or a full Java stack, etc.)
<ian_brasil> yes, that makes sense
<ian_brasil> and the viewpoint is more valid in the first world than here in the third ;)
<persia> Mind you, part of this is because it's tricky to figure out how much storage is available, and whether to optimise for user data with few updates or an updatable system :)
<ian_brasil> especially in  Brazil where we pay 90% tax on hardware which is imported
<persia> That's probably true.  I'm biased based on where I live, and it shows.
<persia> I thought it was only 80%.  Did it go up?
<ian_brasil> it is 84% if i remember correctly
<persia> Ah.  Then 80% and 90% are both accurate within the limits of their precision :)
 * persia hasn't lived in Brasil, only heard stories
<persia> And there is no local manufacture of flash?
<ian_brasil> no
<ian_brasil> unless local == china
<persia> Yeah, that makes it more awkward.
<persia> No :)  China isn't that local to Brasil
<ian_brasil> so if you had to do it the way shown in the link is probably the thing to do or is there some better way?
<persia> Well, some of the hardcoding is variable.
<persia> Essentially, create some filesystem layout somewhere, run mksquashfs to create your squashfs, dd that to your target / partition.
<persia> Make sure you have a different boot partition.
<persia> It's a good idea to use aufs or unionfs to merge an empty partition with your squashfs partition to handle file changes.
<persia> If you're using squashfs for /, this is especially critical to support changes in /etc and /var
<persia> (and software updates).
<persia> I'd recommend having /home be a separate partition from either of those, and if you use swap, that also needs to be separate (although you may want to look into a compressed swap solution if you're really that limited in secondary storage)
<persia> squashfs and unionfs/aufs need to be enabled in the initrd for this to work.
<ian_brasil> ah, this is cool...so mount some dirs like tmp , var and run as tmpfs
<persia> If you want to see an example of a working configuration, install the hardy image to a KVM drive constructed with `qemu-img -f raw ${file} ${size}`. mount the resulting image, and take a look at the configuration.
<ian_brasil> very nice persia
<persia> Well, /var as tmpfs gets a little risky: you *really* want /var/lib to persist over reboots.  It's probably safe to lose /var/cache /var/lock, and /var/run.
<persia> /var/spool depends on what you are doing on the system: you may want to persist it.  /var/log is handy to keep so you don't lose your logs on an unexpected reset, and can track it down.
<persia>  /tmp should *definitely* be /tmpfs if you are limited in secondary storage.  If you have a use case for a large /tmp, I think it's probably better to have a large swap, and use tmpfs anyway, as that way you only allocate disk space as it is used, rather than all the time.
<persia> (I use that even on systems with ~100G secondary storage, just because /tmp is wiped on reboot anyway, and I typically want RAM access times for stuff in /tmp)
<persia> For the hardy image, I think /home is partially in the squashfs (standard user data), and partially in the overlay.  The reason I suggest this is dangerous is that if you change the squashfs, it may corrupt the overlay, which could result in a loss of user data.
<persia> Anyway: any quick questions about squashfs, or are you planning to go test and play for a while?
<ian_brasil> just one ...about fstab ...to mount squashfs as root...there is something special to do
<ian_brasil> i will play on a device with @2GB of staorage
<persia> For the kiosk case you might want this.  For a personal system, I still think most people would want to pay an additional ~15 reais to have a MID with enough storage.
<persia> You have a 2G device?  Oh, that changes things.  I thought this was a theoretical discussion.
<ian_brasil> no, we are trying to lend one to make these  tests
<persia> I actually don't remember what you need in fstab.  I think you just define the union fs there, and the unionfs definition is where you put the compressed and overlay details.
<persia> The hardy installer image installs a system with a layout as described, and looking there is likely your best example.
<ian_brasil> excellent
<persia> OK.  I've not seen any for sale anywhere, despite persistent rumors that one might exist, so I've someone assumed they were fictional.  If you can test on an actual device, then they exist, and it's probably worth at least putting together a wiki page explaining how to do it.
<ian_brasil> right...that would help
<persia> It's probably also not that hard to construct a script that would extract the squashfs from the live images, delete the installer, and tweak a couple things to turn it into something that would be suitable for direct copy to such a device.
<ian_brasil> ah, so this is what we want to do here!
<ian_brasil> exactly what we were think about
<persia> I ultimately think the introduction of any such devices will be a market failure, even in Brasil, because of the rapidly falling cost of flash, and the increasingly common availability of 1" rotary drives, but that doesn't mean some people won't end up with them.
<persia> Yeah, that's probably the easiest method.  The other would be to construct a debootstrap chroot, install the ubuntu-mid package, and use that as a base for a squashfs.
<persia> In either case, I still think that it makes more sense to pick some subset of ubuntu-mid than try to use the whole thing (OO.o and OpenJRE are prime candidates to be dropped), but it really depends on the expected ultimate use case for the device.
<persia> In that case, you'd debootstrap up a base chroot, install ubuntu-minimal, and then add packages as you need.  Clean up the apt-cache (apt-get clean), and construct the squashfs.
<ian_brasil> yes, this is what we are doing 
<persia> With judicious trimming, and some attention to use cases when selecting the software, I expect you could get the squashfs down to about 350M.
<ian_brasil> this is interesting and to quickly change the subject ..is there some public info somewhere about use cases and selecting software for UME or is that just common sense?
<persia> I've had trouble with /boot of only 256M previously, but that is only an issue when there are two kernels installed simultaneously.  150M is probably sufficient if you don't expect a kernel upgrade (or can reflash the device on kernel upgrade), which should get the base system in ~512M.
<persia> I don't know of anything.  I think cgregan was working on documenting some, but I believe it's a work-in-progress.
<persia> For the most part it's been about supporting what seem like common use cases (including arguing about what is actually common).
<persia> And then trying to find applications that work with a smaller screen, and can be adjusted to support finger navigation and the like.
<persia> Anyway, too many of my words are malapropisms for me to stay confident any longer.  Good luck with your project, and ask me about it again in ~15 hours if you like.
<ian_brasil> excellent info ..thanks a lot..i will poke you when the scriptis ready
<ian_brasil> in python
<persia> If you do get something working, please also post instructions to the wiki.  While I hope they will be completely useless for everyone else, this may not be true if you have access to actual 2G devices.
<ian_brasil> ok, will do
<ethana2> http://i38.tinypic.com/11hxdgl.png
<sgeorge> any Aigo owners around?
#ubuntu-mobile 2008-09-21
<s0003995931> Hi
<venome> hi everyone, I just installed the ubuntu-mobile packages up on my xubuntu installation, I managed to set up the hildon session to run from the login screen, but I have some minor issues ... for example, I'm not able to run the control panel .. is there a special package required for that?
<die2> halo everyone
<die2> is there anyone who has tried installing UM&E on a regular notebook?
<die2> 've tried to install my laptop with regular hardy, but it needs quit sometime to upload the system
<die2> I hope using the UM&E, will increase the upload speed.
<die2> any comment?
<ethana21> die2: are you talking about ume-launcher?
<ethana21> die2: I tried ume-launcher on my notebook but decided that I preferred the regular menus, so I uninstalled it
 * ethana21 is confused, meh
<ian_brasil_> what is the way to launch clutter now that moblin-clutter-home is not in intrepid
<ian_brasil_> so desktop-launcher  does not exist
<ian_brasil_> maybe be is to add the ppa to sources.list?
<persia> ian_brasil_: moblin-clutter-home wasn't in hardy either, as far as I see.
<persia> Oh.  I found it.  Nevermind.
<persia> Yeah, you'd have to add the PPA.
<persia> I wonder how I missed that one.
<ian_brasil_> :)
<persia> There is (an updated) clutter in intrepid, so I suspect there's another way to use it effectively.
<ian_brasil_> you are talking about libclutter-0.8-0 ?
<ian_brasil_> i think SevenK looked at the launcher and dropped it
<ian_brasil_> oops...even StevenK
<persia> I do mean libclutter, and yes, I do think that the clutter-based launcher was dropped for intrepid.
<persia> (although I could be mistaken)
<ogra> if you try it in intrepid it would be intresting to know if it has the same issue as netbook-launcher in bug 269150
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 269150 in netbook-launcher "No text under icons with Intrepid alpha 5" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/269150
<ian_brasil> i just built a live usb image using MIC and when i boot the in kvm it keeps sleeping for 5 seconds while checking device /dev/sd[abcd] for installation source
<ian_brasil> probably #moblin is better
#ubuntu-mobile 2009-09-14
<lool> asac: Hey I wonder whether awe and you made progress on the libgeoclue and modemmanager stuff?
<lool> (for MIRs)
<asac> lool: bluetooth was just uploaded. licensing was a mess
<asac> modemmanager is fix committed as you know
<lool> asac: Ok cool
<lool> asac: Is there any new MIR to look at from the stack?
<lool> asac: At some point you pondered geoclue
<asac> we dont need that in main necessarily
<asac> its an optional runtime dependency
<lool> Oh ok
<lool> So just a suggests and done
<asac> i added it to Suggest: now
<asac> yeah
<lool> asac: Ok cool; I was just checking whether you guys were blocking on anything on my side
<amol> hi to all, i am new to mobile OS i have used desktop edition .what is difference between desktop edition and mobile edition?
<lool> Since it took me ages to process the MIRs in the first place
<asac> yes ... you were really brave ;)
<lool> amol: We dont build a mobile edition anymore
<asac> i am working on gnome-web-photo ... looking if we can make upstream fix
<lool> asac: A crasher was just reported BTW
<asac> build system fixed i noticed that it really uses internal symbols ... so no-go.
<lool> bug #429125
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 429125 in gnome-web-photo "gnome-web-photo segfaults on simple command line usage" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/429125
 * asac checks
<amol> lool, sorry i mean MID edition and desktop edition
<asac> hmm. not much of a backtrace yet
<lool> amol: We dont build the MID edition anymore either
<lool> amol: It used to be targeted at, well, MIDs and based on the Hildon stack
<lool> It might be resurrected at some point in the future
<amol> lool,in MID or ARM based edition all packages recompiled for specific processor or just kernel,drivers and installer recompiled for specific processor?
<lool> amol: MID used to be built from the lpia architecture
<lool> Which meant roughly i686
<lool> But MID is obsolete
<amol> MID is obsolete why?
<lool> the ARM images are of Ubuntu Desktop Edition and built from the armel architecture
<amol> any specific reason?
<lool> amol: Lack of interest on the Canonical side and nobody cared for the packages/image since we stopped
<lool> Some people recently stepped up again and were willing to do a MID release in karmic
<lool> But that's going to be though
<amol> what has to be done to do karmic release is there any documentation?
<amol> karmic release for MId
<lool> amol: Well you might want to sync with ian when he's around
<lool> Basically, first define what you want in it (Mer?  upstream Hildon?  Moblin 1 still?), then test the upstream image of this project and identify packages which need to be prepared/updated then do these merges/upload in Ubuntu karmic (with relevant freeze exceptions) then do an image out of it
<epuzarne> jcollado: ping
<jcollado> epuzarne: pong
#ubuntu-mobile 2009-09-15
<eggonlea_> well, I've thought Ubuntu MID would continue with Mer as upstream.
<eggonlea_> 17:34 < lool> But MID is obsolete
<eggonlea_> ARM, as well as LPIA
<XPPRESP3> hello all 
<XPPRESP3> i want to build a device with some applications and use ubuntu 8.01
<XPPRESP3> how do i get started with the user interface customization ?
<XPPRESP3> do i need to read much about window managers and stuff ?
<XPPRESP3> any pointers would be helpful for getting started
<lool> XPPRESP3: Ubuntu 8.01?
<lool> XPPRESP3: It's a bit too vague to help you specifically; what environment do you target what type of image and device etc.
<XPPRESP3> ok, i have Intel Atom processor, and GMA 500 for the graphics 
<XPPRESP3> it is a touchscreen device
<XPPRESP3> what i'am trying to ask is more of a getting started question 
<lool> XPPRESP3: Well you need a precise goal/vision; there are so many ways you can change Ubuntu that it's hard to give you general advice
<lool> Do you want to change the app selection?  The theming?  The software stack entirely?
<XPPRESP3> all the apps iam writing are totally new 
<XPPRESP3> so i wont need anything from ubuntu
<XPPRESP3> i mean the applications 
<lool> Ok why do you need Ubuntu for?
<lool> s/why/what
<XPPRESP3> i heard that ubuntu has a project for this stuff,  i mean with clutter and has a very stable multimedia framework 
<XPPRESP3> so i thouhgt i should try
<XPPRESP3> i have not finalised what to use yet
<lool> XPPRESP3: Ok perhaps you should start by writing your apps or writing down your design goals, then split the integration work into tasks and we can perhaps help you
<davmor2> XPPRESP3: is this a scratch your own itch thing or a uni project type thing?
<XPPRESP3> the former :-)
<XPPRESP3> how do i handle communication between the apps, as to who is in focus, is that the job of the window manager , i need some theroetical knowledge on this one, iam not sure where to find 
<XPPRESP3> my question basically is, let us say i have 5 applications, written using gtk , clutter etc., i have the ui for launching them , let us say 
<lool> hmm
<lool> XPPRESP3: You could read the ewmh specification, that might be a good start
<XPPRESP3> and now , how do i mange these applications , i mean if i'am showing the user the open applications, how do i switch between them ?
<XPPRESP3> like we have in mobile phons
<XPPRESP3> phones, i mean
<lool> XPPRESP3: I'm afraid this knowledge is slow to grasp, you want to write your own minimal Xorg programs and print debug over what the WM is doing
<lool> XPPRESP3: You could also look at the metacity/compiz source code
<XPPRESP3> ok, now , i understand it will be difficult to grasp, i'am looking for something which is already there, and a bit easier to learn and customize
<XPPRESP3> i will look at the options you sent, thank you 
<lool> I'm afraid it's not easy; but the EMWH spec has pointers to the Xorg bits and that should cover 90% of the API which WMs use to handle windows
<XPPRESP3> ok, what's the best route for me, as i need to build a prototype, 
<XPPRESP3> maybe i can go into the gory details, later
<XPPRESP3> metacity , is something i should look at , right ?
<lool> Sure
<lool> or compiz
<XPPRESP3> ok, great, thank you for your time 
<XPPRESP3> and suggestions
<Ajay> hi to all ,is there .deb package for PassiceTex 
<lool> Ajay: Never heard of that; is the spelling correct?
<Ajay> lool, yes it is correct
<lool> Ajay: It doesn't seem to be in the Ubuntu archive; the Ubuntu wiki explains how you can request new packages
<lool> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopment
<lool> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopment/NewPackages
<lool> NCommander: Did you update the meeting page with the last two weeks of actions?
<dereks>  /topic
<lool> dereks: Topic for #ubuntu-mobile: http://qa.ubuntu.com/reports/ogasawara/weatherreport.html | https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileTeam/FAQ
<lool> :-P
<ogra> heh
<dereks> lool: yeah :) i had a space
<dereks> thanks :)
<wutzara_netbook> njpatel: Hey Neil. Did you know, how to compile the netbook-launcher? The INSTALL dont give me a solution to solve the compile-process.
<lool> plars: I tried looking at which teams I'm in to set release tracking
<lool> plars: I think that's the one: https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-drivers/+members
<lool> plars: I'm in via UDS Organizers
<plars> lool: ok
<lool> plars: Most QA folks are in via canonical-qa
<lool> plars: Not sure how to fix this
<plars> lool: I'll take a look, but do you know if there are any historical criteria for what gets targetted?
<lool> plars: What do you mean?
<plars> lool: as in, what are normally the criteria for deciding if, and by when, a bug should be targetted to a release?
<lool> plars: Oh you're not in ubuntu-bugcontrol?
<plars> lool: I am
<lool> ah probably you are, it's just paged
<lool> Right saw you
<lool> it didn't make any sense t ome
<njpatel> wutzara_netbook: sudo apt-get install build-dep netbook-launcher && ./configure && make && make install ?
<playya_> or use pbuilder
<lool> plars: Perhaps the easiest to sort this is to chat with the QA team and see whether they can grant you access?
<lool> plars: or with release team
<lool> either would know
<wutzara_netbook> njpatel: he didnt find build-dep. What is that for a packet?
<lool> I'm not 100% sure myself
<lool> plars: Criteria > well it's a rough feeling on impact and severity
<njpatel> wutzara_netbook: it installs all the dependancies of a package, so you can build it
<ogra> but its written wronglx
<lool> is everybody affected, is it data loss, is it security vulnerability, does it break the system etc.
<ogra> *wrongly
<ogra> wutzara_netbook, its: sudo apt-get build-dep netbook-launcher
<ogra> no "install" in there
<lool> plars: So it's some kind of feel/score you see on the bug; a crasher in a specific setup / corner case is not as important as a crasher for 50% os users on boot etc.
<plars> lool: but targetting it to a specific release, I kinda feel like I'm making promises about when someone is going to fix it by - wouldn't that be better left up to whoever is going to be assigined the bug?
<njpatel> ogra: ah, dammit, thanks for that
<ogra> ;)
 * njpatel blames the fact that he's ill
<lool> plars: Bug targetting is really about saying "Wow this bug is important enough that we should make sure we track status in the foo series"
<njpatel> wutzara_netbook: sorry, what ogra said
<lool> plars: And hence puts it on the release team's radar
<lool> There's an implicit commitment that we will get poked about it
<wutzara_netbook> njpatel: ok he download some packages - thanks for that hint. but i dont have a configure skript in the actual branch
<lool> But if the bug is truly that important then it's the right thing to do
<njpatel> wutzara_netbook: ah, you using bzr; do ./autogen.sh instead of ./configure
<plars> lool: understand
<plars> lool: have to run afk for a bit, back soon
<lool> plars: It's hard to give you a perfect algorithm; perhaps the release team has better recommendations on the heuristics they follow
<wutzara_netbook> ok - thanks. I will try it. Thanks a lot for the Tricks. i am want to participate in this project but i dont get it to compile - thats really ashamed :(
<lool> plars: Attend a release meeting to see how it works if you like
<lool> plars: Or read the log
<plars> lool: I usually lurk on it
<lool> plars: Ok; I think that gives a good feel on the purpose / handling of these items
<lool> win 1
<lool> Ups
<wutzara_netbook> njpatel: ok all worked so far. is it essential that i run make install? or can i test the launcher without to install it in /usr/ ?
<njpatel> wutzara_netbook: the launcher has data such as images that it references and expects in the target, so make install is necessary
<wutzara_netbook> njpatel: ok but if i had the launcher already installed. I only want to test some changes in a *sandbox* before i crash my running system
<njpatel> wutzara_netbook: if you've already got it installed in /usr, and you ran ./autogen.sh --prefix=/usr, then it should work
<wutzara_netbook> njpatel: ok - and which file i  should start after compiling. Sorry for the beginner-questions
<njpatel> wutzara_netbook: src/netbook-launcher
<njpatel> wutzara_netbook: you can start with "-w" option, if you don't want it to take over your desktop
<wutzara_netbook> njpatel: thanks alot. all worked like you said. I wondering that no clutteranimations is showed in windowed mode
<njpatel> wutzara_netbook: they should be, not sure why they aren't
<njpatel> wutzara_netbook: the only animation that won't show is the one when the launcher is out of focus and fades a bit...the rest should work as normal
<wutzara_netbook> njpatel: its all there - but the backgound is not showed - no rectangle around the icons and so on. I can post a picture
<davmor2> Guys do you know that today's daily is a little pear shape?  I get a block top left that has a a down arrow in it and a tiny block that overlaps that one slightly and that's it
<davmor2> GrueMaster: did you get your AAO back yet?
<GrueMaster> Just got word that it is in route to me.  Should get it in a couple of days.
<davmor2> Yay
<lool> davmor2: Build of what? UNR?
<davmor2> lool: yes
<lool> davmor2: Do you think it's related to the boot stuff?
<davmor2> lool: This seems to be the menu systems but in miniature.  However I burnt from karmic.  I'm about to try again with one burnt from jaunty usb creator and see if it's just an issues with that
<davmor2> lool: okay that's better but still not right.  I get the top bar with default gnome gfx.  the cursor is the circle and it's constantly spinning, and there is no menu or backdrop
<davmor2> lool: damn I click on the bar now it is the same as the other was
<davmor2> lool: http://www.davmor2.co.uk/unr.jpg
<lool> davmor2: Can you launch a terminal?
<lool> davmor2: Did you see xsplash?
<davmor2> lool: yes saw xsplash
<davmor2> I can access ctrl-alt-Fx
<davmor2> lool: does it use clutter to display?
<lool> davmor2: Yes
<lool> davmor2: Can you check .xsession-errors?
<davmor2> lool: ps aux says no clutter running
<lool> davmor2: clutter is just a lib
<lool> No process
<davmor2> ah
<lool> davmor2: Check for a netbook-launcher process
<davmor2> there are .xsession errors just trying to get them for you
<lool> davmor2: Perhaps plugging wired ethernet NM will autoconnect?
<lool> davmor2: Otherwise use cmdline ethernet setup
<davmor2>  yes and if that fail another usb pen drive 2 ticks
<davmor2> lool: try http://www.davmor2.co.uk/.xsession-errors
<lool> davmor2: Could you dpkg -l apport\*?
<lool> davmor2: actually no need thanks
<lool> The apport failures are odd
<lool> gnome-session[5103]: WARNING: Could not launch application 'gnome-keyring-daemon.desktop': Unable to start application: Failed to execute child process "gnome-keyring-daemon" (Input/output error)
<lool> davmor2: You're getting IO errors
<lool> davmor2: Looks like your hardware is defunct
<lool> or you have a serious kernel issue
<davmor2> lool: this is running from a new pen drive
<lool> davmor2: Hmm I wonder what would explain IO errors then
<lool> davmor2: Check dmesg?
<davmor2> knickers squashfs error abound
<davmor2> I'll try reformatting the drive and drop it back on again
<lool> Ah
<lool> that explains
<lool> davmor2: Try the ISO in a VM too if you can
<davmor2> lool that's not pretty in vm 
<davmor2> lool but at least the taskbar was correct :)
<lool> davmor2: It should work in virtualbox
<davmor2> I use kvm and virt manager
<lool> problem is that you get no 3d
<lool> virtualbox can pass through the opengl stuff
<lool> davmor2: I am booting the current ISO
<davmor2> lool: same again meh
<lool> davmor2: Well dig the first squashfs errors in your dmesg
<lool> davmor2: They might be a kernel issue
<davmor2> I'm dropping vbox on 2 ticks
<davmor2> lool: works in vbox
<davmor2> burnt it to cd I'm going to try it on real hw
<davmor2> so the cd works too it's just got to be the transfer to usb :(
<lool> too bad
<davmor2> I just used gparted on unr to format the pendrive so lets try again :)
<davmor2> right formating with vista
#ubuntu-mobile 2009-09-16
<adn1> hi!!!
#ubuntu-mobile 2009-09-17
<orkyahaalhai> how to run mobile games on linux??
#ubuntu-mobile 2009-09-18
<lool> ogra: I just received my reminder to prepare for the release meeting
<lool> ogra: So would you mind preparing the report?   :-)
<lool> I can proofread it if you like
<ogra> if i have found the d-i issue :)
<ogra> i dont want to pause that work atm
<lool> ogra: I need to know if you're writing it or not though
<ogra> sure i do
<ogra> i still have last weeks open
<ogra> will just carry over and adjust
<lool> Ok
<lool> asac: Hey
<lool> asac: How did things go with gnome-web-photo?
<asac> slow progress 
<lool> asac: If it looks like it will take a bit more time, perhaps we should defer to karmic+1
<asac> can we get that in karmic+1
<asac> hehe
<asac> yeah
<lool> asac: Since we're into UI freeze etc.
<lool> asac: Alternatively if you tell me you're sure you'll manage to fix it we could approve it to main and target the bug at beta
<asac> its directly linking into libxul.so i can tell that on the MIR
<lool> It's just that I think we should decide now whether we take it or not
<asac> lool: no i cannot guarantee that i will fix it. its fixable
<lool> asac: Ok so let's defer to karmic+`
<asac> but i have lots of things to do
<lool> +1
<lool> asac: That's fine by me
<lool> njpatel: You around?
<wutzara_netbook> Will the Ubuntu moblin remix get an official release?
<lool> njpatel: I'd love to have a quick chat with you on Humanity/theming
<lool> wutzara_netbook: Official?  No
<lool> wutzara_netbook: We're already having a hard time getting it to build
<wutzara_netbook> lool: Why then porting the packages?
<lool> wutzara_netbook: Why then what?
<lool> wutzara_netbook: Porting which packages?
<njpatel> lool: got a few minutes, whats up?
<lool> njpatel: Can I give you a quick phone call?
<wutzara_netbook> lool: in Launchpad are many packages to build a moblin Interface in Ubuntu - but without a official release why package these library's?
<lool> Hold on
<lool> wutzara_netbook: Well we need to start somewhere
<wutzara_netbook> lool: ok so will the moblin remix get finetuning? There are some obscure behaviour in the interface. Like the window in the upper left corner
<ogra> lool, i assume bug 425547 is still in progress ? 
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 425547 in Ubuntu Karmic "Ubuntu Moblin Remix: Merging ~moblin PPA packages into karmic" [Undecided,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/425547
<ogra> StevenK, lool, should bug 430277 be on the release team report ?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 430277 in humanity-icon-theme "ubuntuone icon is colorful while the other panel icons are dark" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/430277
<StevenK> ogra: Nah, lool had a plan
<ogra> ok
<ogra> plans are always good :)
 * StevenK goes back to his holidays
<lool> wutzara_netbook: Sorry I'm on the phone two secs
<lool> wutzara_netbook: So there are two angles to this
<lool> wutzara_netbook: One is the Ubuntu one and the other is the Canonical one
<lool> wutzara_netbook: Other Canonical employees and myself are tasked with packaging Moblin bits and assembling a basic image in Ubuntu
<lool> Even if these were not officially released upstream
<lool> This started in a PPA a while ago and is being merged in karmic (see the bug ogra mentionned)
<lool> We can't merge everything we did in karmic, like UI changes or changes to common bits such as GNOME bits
<njpatel> lool: https://edge.launchpad.net/~canonical-ux
<lool> wutzara_netbook: But we can merge as much as possible and hope that it's useful
<wutzara_netbook> yes i understand that. Then i can build a Moblin Interface in Karmic?
<lool> wutzara_netbook: Over time, things will improve but right now they are messy; also Canonical is not supporting the Ubuntu Moblin Remix officially; it's some developer demo if you like
<lool> wutzara_netbook: You can do what you want!
<lool> njpatel: thanks!
<lool> StevenK: So we're dropping Humanity for karmic; might readd in karmic+1
<lool> njpatel: BTW consider UDS sponsorships for Humanity folks if you think that's useful for UNR in karmic+1
<njpatel> lool: sure, will do
<lool> ogra: bug 425547 > yes still in progress
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 425547 in Ubuntu Karmic "Ubuntu Moblin Remix: Merging ~moblin PPA packages into karmic" [Undecided,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/425547
<wutzara_netbook> lool, thanks for that answer. So its maybe possible to get in the future a moblin remix but it isnt planned
<lool> ogra: Concerning the icon theming bugs, we will revert to Human
<ogra> lool, ok, but i guess that doesnt need mentioning in the report 
<lool> ogra: That should certainly be a highlight in the meeting that we will rollback from humanity-icon-theme to human-icon-theme
<ogra> ok
<lool> It's a UI change and quite a visible one so I think it's worth a high level note, perhaps in the highlights along the report's URL
<lool> wutzara_netbook: What are you asking about?
<lool> wutzara_netbook: We're building a daily image from karmic+ppa; currently it's failing to build due to a transition
<lool> We're working on that issue but it's non-trivial
<lool> We should solve it in the next week we hope
<wutzara_netbook> lool, there is still no official release for moblin remix. My problem is that i use a Celeron M processor on my netbook. So my last hope is that i can get the moblin interface (which is quite attractive) with ubuntu which dont need SSSE3
<ogra> lool, can you milestone bug 430277 and add info about the plan ? 
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 430277 in humanity-icon-theme "ubuntuone icon is colorful while the other panel icons are dark" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/430277
<lool> wutzara_netbook: Ok so we are providing images but they will not be as high quality as the other Ubuntu ones; make your choice beween ubuntu moblin remix, the UNR image, other Ubuntu images, or the upstream Moblin image
<lool> ogra: Yes was about to do that
<ogra> thanks
<wutzara_netbook> lool, yes i use for my productive netbook the UNR. But if moblin will be useable i will switch to moblin as soon as i can. upstream Moblin dont work because of the CPU.
<lool> wutzara_netbook: So wait some time and reevaluate
<lool> wutzara_netbook: But moblin remix wont be as nice as UNR
<wutzara_netbook> lool, yes i like the UNR Interface - but the integration of social web isn't as good as moblin. One sneak of peak and i see my tasks and my appointments. Perfect Twitter integration and so on. Maybe this is the only advantage ;)
<lool> njpatel: ^ he says UNR sucks
<lool> njpatel: I'd cut his tongue or something
<wutzara_netbook> roooofl
<wutzara_netbook> no no lool - i like UNR i swear
<njpatel> lool: LOL, point him to moblin remix...he'll soon be back :)
<wutzara_netbook> :) i AM be back form that
<njpatel> wutzara_netbook: social integration is on the radar, hopefully for 9.10
<njpatel> wutzara_netbook: er, 10.04
<njpatel> wutzara_netbook: heh, good to hear :)
<lool> What's that social thing?
<lool> It's like IRC?
<wutzara_netbook> Twitter?
<wutzara_netbook> Feeds?
<lool> Bah I have email already
 * ogra has a mobile phone !
<wutzara_netbook> thats one point that i missing. Maybe it is possible that a deamon search for new mails and show them on the UNR
<wutzara_netbook> without to start evolution
<lool> davidbarth: ogra updated the releasestatus page
<lool> davidbarth: Anything specific you want to raise for DX?
<DBO> plars, you around? :)
<plars> DBO: yes
<DBO> I am on Neil Patels team (actually interning on his team) and am looking to see if we cant help apport get some extra info for us out of some related crashes
<DBO> we are getting lots of crashes inside of clutter-glx lately, this is most likely a driver bug, however the bug reports so far as I can see do not contain any info about the video card/driver/mesa/xorg version
<DBO> making it rather hard to figure out what render path inside of mesa/xorg/some random driver, actually contains the bug :(
<DBO> i understand you either can help, or can point me at a person who can :)
<plars> DBO: ah, I saw a comment about that in a bug today
<DBO> that was me
<plars> DBO: right
<plars> DBO: so... best thing I can suggest is that we start asking for that information on those bugs
<plars> DBO: unfortunately, I haven't been able to reproduce any of them myself
<DBO> is there any way to help get this information in the future automatically
<DBO> I suspect upon release we are going to get floods of these things
<plars> DBO: I take it that it's impossible to proceed without that information?
<DBO> pretty much
<DBO> there are just too many code paths to explore
<plars> DBO: yes
<plars> DBO: I'll look at that, though it may not be possible this cycle, will have to see
<DBO> what about just getting a xorg log in there?
<plars> DBO: basically it would involve writing an apport hook for netbook-launcher (where the problems are usually showing up) to grab that information
<DBO> oh so the hooks go into netbook-launcher?
<DBO> where can I get documentation on adding those hooks, I can pound that stuff out
<plars> DBO: so... wishlist time: for a bug against netbook-launcher, what information would be useful to have for debugging?
<plars> DBO: I can write the hook if you want, or you can, matters not to me
<plars> DBO: I've been wanting to talk to you and Neil for a while now when we all have some free time, to get these kind of hook written for all of the UNR things
<DBO> useful information, a Xorg log, kernel log, that would actually about cover it
<DBO> since the xorg log would contain almost all the info we need
<plars> DBO: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Apport#Per-package%20Apport%20Hooks
<DBO> sweet, so we can hook this without changing apport? (sorry, I know nothing of how apport works yet)
<plars> DBO: I know that launcher spits out some other data if you run it from console, is there anyway to capture that if you didn't run it from console?
<plars> DBO: yep, it just goes in with the netbook-launcher package
<plars> DBO: assuming it's not breaking some Freeze, then it's pretty straightforward
<plars> DBO: and the hooks are pretty simple to write
<DBO> I dont think I have had to break any freezes yet personally
<DBO> everybody gets 1, right? :P
<whitetiger00> hi all
<plars> DBO: of course, for the bugs that are already out there, we need to just ask on the bug for the submitter to attach the xorg log after reproducing
<whitetiger00> Can someone suggest a good PCMCIA wireless card that will work fairly well, out of the box, with 9.04???
<plars> DBO: oh, for launcher, what about .xsession-errors? anything useful there?
<DBO> plars, while I dont disagree, my experience is that most of those pleas will go unanswered
<plars> DBO: they may, and it would be great if you can proceed without the information.
<lool> plars: Let's just call the source_xorg hook in the netbook-launcher one
<lool> Or add a symlink
<DBO> plars, I doubt anything will end up there thats not in the xorg logs, but it wont hurt
<plars> DBO: but! - if the bug is impacting enough people, then chances are that someone will see it when they try to submit the bug, and attach the log even if it isn't the original submitter
<DBO> yes I know, I will go through each of the bugs asking for it
<DBO> we'll see if anyone bites :)
<lool> DBO: Check /usr/share/apport/package-hooks/source_xorg.py does it include what you want?
<DBO> lool, if that even just grabs a xorg log it gets what I want
<plars> lool: that would probably suffice, but I was wondering from DBO if there was any way to get the stdout/stderr output from netbook-launcher.  I've seen njpatel ask for that on some bugs in the past
<DBO> mmm yeah that does get what I want
<lool> It grabs all of them
<DBO> plars, I need to convert the way unr does logging
<lool> plars: haha checkout the compiz hook
<DBO> there is too much usage of g_print'ish commands
<lool> it copy-pasted the xorg one and grabs .xsession-errors
<lool> I find it sad that so many hooks dup the xorg log bit
<lool> plars: You wanted to write that hook?  Do you mind if I do?
<ogra> lool, you skip a call to do more work ?
<mac_v> lool: hi... i didnt understand why the FFE was needed for UNR ,and the Humanity theme... if you dont want the greyscale icons we could just revert them! i dont want to cause unnecessary confusion , Daniel has spent several days to get the greyscale icons conceptualized
<plars> lool: sounds like it's just going to be a cut and paste of the xorg or compiz one!
 * ogra shakes head
<lool> plars: hehe then dont :)
<plars> lool: what were you thinking of doing instead?
<lool> plars: I have something nicer
<lool> plars: http://paste.ubuntu.com/273588/
<plars> lool: great, have at it then! :)
<lool> mac_v: Ah
<lool> mac_v: I'm glad you ping me
<plars> lool: much nicer
<lool> mac_v: I intended to drop Humanity fron UNR
<mac_v> why so?
<mac_v> over my comment! :(
<lool> mac_v: I have a list of issues for which it's getting late for fixing
<lool> mac_v: but perhaps we can sort them out
<lool> mac_v: Let me forward them to you; emaiL?
<mac_v> lool: was this decision before my comment or after?
<lool> mac_v: It was about 8 hours ago
<mac_v> lool: aw! ..sure you can send the problems by mail
<lool> mac_v: But I was not getting feedback on the humanity issues; now that you popup perhaps we can still fix that?  :)
<lool> mac_v: which address?
<mac_v> lool: yup , sure
<mac_v> oh my , lp has the id
<lool> ah just got your ping on #ubuntu-desktop
<lool> Hmm ok
<mac_v> yeah  , i realized that was in the wrong room ;)
<lool> mac_v: sent
<lool> mac_v: So if we really want to do that, we need to test all notification-area icons in the default UNR image
<lool> mac_v: I'm sorry, it's getting a tad late for me to discuss this and I'm a bit tired; do you mind if we resume on Monday?
<lool> or you can email me
<mac_v> lool: sure no probs... :)
<lool> -rw-r--r-- root/root       182 2009-09-18 18:25 ./usr/share/apport/package-hooks/source_netbook-launcher.py
<lool> DBO: plars: ^
<lool> uploaded
<DBO> oh man
<DBO> love you
<lool> DBO: Let me know if you want that for other source packages
<lool> e.g. clutk or whatever
<braindump03> Hey, is there already a working Ubuntu MID build for the Nokia N810?
<robbiew> StevenK...around?
