#ubuntu-accessibility 2010-11-22
<charlie-tca> Pendulum: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Accessibility/Testing 
<charlie-tca> check out the heading Application Testing for Accessibility
<charlie-tca> Anyone should be able to use those tests, disabled or not.
<Pendulum> charlie-tca: I think we need to make the Getting Involved Page a little less "here's where to go for help"
<Pendulum> (which is how it reads to me now)
<charlie-tca> Okay. Let me work at that then. Thanks
<Pendulum> maybe something more like "Here are areas in which you can get involved" and then list out documentation, testing, etc. and then link to the ToDo list?
<charlie-tca> Just waking up now
<Pendulum> no worries
<Pendulum> i'm busy sorting my resume and such so I can apply for jobs :-/
<charlie-tca> w00t! more fun for you?
<Pendulum> heh
<charlie-tca> Oh, that page! Yes, that is on my "todo" list for a re-write
<Pendulum> okay, I'm having a moment of "Pendulum, jfdi"
<Pendulum> so I'm doing it as a break from the job application stuff
<charlie-tca> Sorry, sometimes it takes a minute for things to make it through the brain
<Pendulum> s'ok
<Pendulum> i'm fixing what I think needs to be fixed and then if you can look at it? I'm also not really doing any proofreading or putting links in
<Pendulum> i think the getting involved page needs to be short, simple, and to the point
<Pendulum> with details to be on other pages linked off that list
<Pendulum> i'm not moving stuff like the "testing" bit off it now because I don't have time, but I think we should
<charlie-tca> agreed. Thanks for doing that.
<Pendulum> okay, i did what i can do now
<Pendulum> i'm also going to overhaul the contacts page a bit
<Pendulum> charlie-tca: nigelb AlanBell mhall119 UndiFineD or anyone else, I've just overhauled https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Accessibility/GettingInvolved can anyone review?
<charlie-tca> I like it, at a quick glance
<charlie-tca> I will do a better review after I get these 225 natty updates in
<charlie-tca> Pendulum: that's pretty much what I was hoping we would get, eventually. Thanks for doing that
<Pendulum> cool
<Pendulum> charlie-tca: also, I have create the blog!
<UndiFineD> looks good Pendulum 
<UndiFineD> The Blog!
<charlie-tca> Where is it?
<charlie-tca> Wow! 
<Pendulum> ubuntuaccessibility.wordpress.com
<UndiFineD> :D
<AlanBell> yay
<charlie-tca> You do know, I don't blog good or even more than once a year, right/
<Pendulum> charlie-tca: if you have a wordpress.com account, I can add you in as a poster/editor. and as some point after that's happened can you go through the choices for themes and find the most accessible
<charlie-tca> Mrsy
<Pendulum> btw, i'm fixing the contacts page now
<charlie-tca> uh, well, nothing like the wrong keys
<Pendulum> so that it starts out with a general contact list and then has the specific people to talk to farther down
<charlie-tca> I have to check if I have an account there. I will let you know
<charlie-tca> As far as themes go, kubrick is always good, if I remember right.
<Pendulum> contacts page is now updated
<Pendulum> I will actually set-up the planet feed and do an intro post on the blog either tonight or tomorrow
<charlie-tca> Great!
<Pendulum> and at some point some of the info I took off Getting Involved needs to go on the testing/bugs page
<AlanBell> I am alanbelltolc on wordpress.com
<Pendulum> AlanBell: what e-mail is that associated with?
<AlanBell> good question
<Pendulum> yeah
<AlanBell> alan.bell@theopenlearningcentre.com
<charlie-tca> heh, the joys of more than one email address
<Pendulum> yeah
<Pendulum> and rather than asking you to add someone's wordpress username, they ask you for the e-mail address associated with the account
<Pendulum> AlanBell: you should get an e-mail with a confirmation link shortly
<AlanBell> cool, thanks!
<AlanBell> oddly it doesn't seem to work, it shows an error and bounces me to votegeek.org.uk for some wierd reason
<Pendulum> odd
<Pendulum> btw, if anyone has anything for me to bring up, i'm meeting with jono now ;)
<Pendulum> AlanBell: it's not showing that you clicked the link either :-/
<AlanBell> "An error occurred adding you to this site. Back to the homepage."
<Pendulum> urgh
<nigelb> Pendulum: looks great
#ubuntu-accessibility 2010-11-23
<mhall119> Pendulum: we're in jacksonville again today, I'll check the page later
<Pendulum> mhall119: no worries! loads of people have looked at it by now so it's less of a concern.
<Pendulum> mhall119: I hope all goes well today!
<mhall119> thanks
#ubuntu-accessibility 2010-11-24
<Pendulum> TheMuso: are you up?
<TheMuso> Pendulum: Yep, I'm here.
<TheMuso> Pendulum: I can verify that keyboard nav for the launcher has been pushed to alpha 2.
 * UndiFineD waves @ hajour 
<hajour> waves @ Undifined
#ubuntu-accessibility 2010-11-25
<hajour> hello Pendulum , do you have a bit of time for me?
<AlanBell> hi hajour 
<AlanBell> hajour: Pendulum is in the states, not sure if she is going to be very available today as it is thanksgiving
<hajour> hai AllanBell
<UndiFineD> vacations, great times to make progress
<hajour> :)
<hajour> I got some sugestions for the accessibility program
<AlanBell> great
<hajour> but i dont now where to offer them
<AlanBell> here is a great place
<AlanBell> there is also the mailing list
<AlanBell> what sort of thing did you have in mind?
<hajour> by exsample take orca
<Pendulum> hi hajour, I'm in and out today so will try to answer stuff when I'm around :)
<hajour> hai pendulem
<hajour> pff sorry for the falts
<hajour> what i have see is this
<hajour> long lines.fond sizes
<hajour> dificult words
<hajour> undifined helps some times
<hajour> i got dislectie
<hajour> not good eyes
<hajour> and apraxie
<hajour> if it have to be accessebel for persons like me
<hajour> its better that it have short lines.
<hajour> simple words
<hajour> fonds needs wider space
<hajour> and for some people speak guidence
<hajour> people with handicaps like to be indipent
<hajour> take s some time to type sometimes
<hajour> then i ask advice from undifined how to type a word
<UndiFineD> :P
<hajour> he just say then i write them stil bad :)
<hajour> then there is the fact 50% of people that have ad(h)d have a kind of dislectie.
<hajour> so page s need to be clear
<hajour> no distraction is the best
<AlanBell> ok, is this in relation to applications in Ubuntu or on the various websites we have?
<UndiFineD> All alan
<AlanBell> it would certainly be great to have bugs filed against things that don't work well, they get a priority boost if they are accessibility related
<UndiFineD> I just explained the bugs thing, I will set up a LP account for her
<hajour> ok also color is importent
<hajour> i sal look to the relatet website s
<hajour> with some help from undifined
<hajour> i should be nice if a dilection program also have a automatic spelling corection
<hajour> disalection program 
<hajour> hoppe you can understand my line s
<hajour> hope i mean
<Pendulum> hajour: All of this stuff you're willing to do is great. It's hard for us to know what everyone needs sometimes, although some of the things you've mentioned are definitely things we already wanted to get fixed
<Pendulum> hajour: and I understand what you're saying without problems :)
<hajour> ok i am just a little bit unsecure .never bin on this sort of chats
<Pendulum> hajour: We're happy to have you and you're doing fine :)
<hajour> have you also have thought about a sound alfabet for deaf people.i now it sounds crazy.but deaf people cant hear sound .but they can feel them
<Pendulum> hajour: I know about deaf people and feeling soundwaves, but I'm not sure how that would translate into software for computers.
<Pendulum> To be honest, the deaf people I've talked to say their two computer related concerns are generally having visual alerts along with sound alerts and captioning video
<UndiFineD> with certain frequencies and pulses changing, you could make a feelable alphabet for the deaf
<hajour> thank you undifined
<JanC> I think something like that might be an interesting project students to investigate
<JanC> *project for students*
<hajour> already talked it treu with undifined before i came here
<Pendulum> JanC: yes. I think you're right. 
<hajour> i was not sure ore i could help here.
<JanC> it certainly would need research into what frequencies work best, how much they need to differ, etc.
<Pendulum> JanC: by the way, the CFP for the FOSDEM accessibility dev room should be out soon
<JanC> nice
<Pendulum> hajour: other than things that you're interested in getting fixed, what are you interested in doing?
<JanC> I think her ideas written out on the wiki would be useful (maybe with help from UndiFineD ?)
<UndiFineD> yeah we can do that :)
<Cheri703> Pendulum: I've been lurking around for a while, and I would like to help in some way, but I'm not a developer in ANY capacity. I'm not entirely sure what I can do...(though the on-screen keyboard thing is still an issue)
<Pendulum> UndiFineD & hajour : are you two in the same location? I know you're in the same country
<Pendulum> Cheri703: on screen keyboard issue?
<UndiFineD> hajour says: I don know anything about software, and because of dyslexia this has always been hard to learn
<UndiFineD> we're a couple
<charlie-tca> Would it be best to add them to https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Accessibility/Team/Goals ?
<Cheri703> if you are using the on-screen keyboard, and you need to put in the password for administrative tasks, it greys out ALL other programs...including the keyboard...which seems counter productive (also unless you know how to go in and edit the main menu, there is no way to access it initially without using a keyboard)
<charlie-tca> Cheri703, I am not a developer either. Just used to be a simple user.
<Pendulum> I'm also not a developer
<Cheri703> ok :)
<charlie-tca> Cheri703, is there a bug for that?
<Cheri703> no clue
<Pendulum> Cheri703: can you file one?
 * Cheri703 isn't super up on the bug thing
<Cheri703> would it be 2 separate bugs?
<Cheri703> one for keyboardless access, one for being unable to enter passwords?
<hajour> i just now only a lot about dislectie ,apraxie ,add ,adhd ,motor skils disfunction, not good seeing
<charlie-tca> if not, can you file one against at-spi using         ubuntu-bug at-spi
<charlie-tca> single bug is okay. I will sort it out if need be
<Cheri703> I don't even know what at-spi is...?
<charlie-tca> That is the assistive technology package
<hajour> and a some about autisme
<Cheri703> ah, ok
<charlie-tca> It will then get to the right place. Let me know what the bug number is, please.
<Cheri703> ok
<Cheri703> also, I did check, and it would seem to be an issue still on 10.10 (I generally use 10.04), so which version should I file it against?
<Cheri703> or?
<Cheri703> like I said, new to the bug reporting world :/
<Cheri703> I think I found it...
<charlie-tca> 10.04 is fine. I will process the bug into all versions
<charlie-tca> sometimes having people that are willing to file bugs is a huge help
<charlie-tca> The biggest thing when filing a bug is to tell how to reproduce the issue clearly.
<UndiFineD> What you expected to happen; What actually happened; The minimal series of steps necessary to make it happen.
<UndiFineD> from https://help.ubuntu.com/community/ReportingBugs
<charlie-tca> Bug 681412 , importance high, ubuntu completely unusable without using the traditional keyboard
<ubot2> Launchpad bug 681412 in at-spi (Ubuntu) "Can not enter password for Administrative tasks using Onboard Keyboard (affects: 1) (heat: 8)" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/681412
<hajour> pendulum i sure would like to help.i dont now where to start and where i could help
<Pendulum> hajour: well, not even thinking about computers for a second, what do you like to do?
<hajour> i like to make things.i design clothes and make them.i paint.i make poems.i write.i play piano,clarinet,and sing.i make delicatesses without chemical igredients,like candy cake bread enz.
<hajour> and gather information about al kinds off research related to food alergie,adhd ,dislectie enz
<Pendulum> Okay. My first thought is that you can definitely do testing of new stuff. I'm also going to think about other things that you could do that use the skills you already have because I think they're all skills that could be very useful for us!
<Pendulum> hajour: also, I'm jealous that you can do clothing design! I can't sew anymore so I don't even make my own clothes anymore, but I've never managed design
<hajour> and put that information together to combine .to come to easyer and more fun ways to learn things
<Pendulum> :)
<hajour> thank you :) it not always works.it depends how my hands function
<hajour> on good days i can do what i want
<hajour> i type with 1 hand
<hajour> but i want to do something where other people are helped with to.
<Pendulum> :)
<hajour> o btw there are sewing machines with posibility s to conect to pc.program on the pc.and the machine do the most of the work.
<hajour> like a desighn s.dont be afraid to try out.if it dos not work.just try again but only a different way
<Cheri703> charlie-tca: still around?
<charlie-tca> yup
<charlie-tca> onboard in menu is bug 622415
<ubot2> Launchpad bug 622415 in onboard (Ubuntu) (and 1 other project) "Onboard keyboard in not in the menu (affects: 1) (heat: 8)" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/622415
<Cheri703> one other thought on the on screen keyboard that I haven't tested at all, but will look into: is it accessible from the login screen? I know there is definitely no option from the lock screen, but not sure about login
<hajour> and it depends what your body can do ore mind.ore boths
<Cheri703> (in windows, you can pop up the keyboard for login)
<charlie-tca> as far as I know, it is fully usable from the gdm login screen. Click the little accessibility icon in the lower part of the screen and turn it on.
<charlie-tca> hajour, agreed
<hajour> and never look what you can not do but to look what you can do
<Cheri703> ok, I'll poke at it
<Cheri703> thanks charlie-tca :)
<Cheri703> I'm off for thanksgiving dinner :) have a good holiday / thursday, depending on what part of the world you're in.
<hajour> have fun cherie
<hajour> pendulum just have read back.i am wonder wich of the skills are usefull.and sure i would  help with testing.:)
<Pendulum> design/art abilities have potential and research abilities are always good :D
<Pendulum> plus anything you can write up about how you do things can possibly be used in documentation
<hajour> i have to eat now. after diner i come back.:)
<hajour> think it sal be tomorrow that undifined and i make my profie on wiki for ubuntu.
<hajour> when undifined works on a idea ore program he often forget to sleep.so now he was very tired and is sleeping
<charlie-tca> Great!
<charlie-tca> We are glad to have some more help and suggestions
<hajour> i sal do the best i can :)
<charlie-tca> That's what we all try for
<hajour> :)
<hajour> i now i have to learn a lot.but i am happy i can help also.that feels good.
<charlie-tca> I desire to help and willing to learn is the most important part. Sometimes it does become too much, though. 
<hajour> i think you have to look good to what you can handle.and dont take to much in 1 time
<charlie-tca> I did that, for a long time. Now, they are trying to keep me busy here and in Xubuntu.
#ubuntu-accessibility 2010-11-26
<charlie-tca> I couldn't take it anymore...
<charlie-tca> bug 681622
<ubot2> Launchpad bug 681622 in ubuntu-website "Can not read gray on gray text on https://wiki.ubuntu.com (affects: 1) (heat: 6)" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/681622
<charlie-tca> first of many to be filed against the website
<TheMuso> heh
<hajour> hello i have a question  .every time i log in .in this chat.i see *Recieved aCTCP VERSION from frigg.what does that mean?
<hajour> already now the answer from undifined
<kinouchou> hello
<hajour> so i have put al lot of information on my profile.its not yet ready but after 3 hours work.i found it enough for now
<hajour> realy need some coffee now
<cprofitt> Pendulum: for the wiki page on accessibility and wiki headers...
<cprofitt> should that page be off the accessibility page?
<hajour> i dont see pendulum on the list.think see is not online
#ubuntu-accessibility 2010-11-27
<UndiFineD> hajour has a "finished" wiki page: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/hajour
<MichelleQ> sounds like she might be a real benefit to having on the accessibility team
<MichelleQ> I can't sentence today...  Let's try that again.  It sounds like she'd be a real benefit to the team
<UndiFineD> :D maybe she can help dutchie on the persona profile of Simon
<dutchie> well, do it for me considering the amount of work i have on
<dutchie> although term finishes a week today \o/
<MichelleQ> dutchie: which persona is Simon?  I've forgotten
<dutchie> http://pad.ubuntu-uk.org/simon
<MichelleQ> Ah, OK.  
<dutchie> wonder how much i could simulate simon by taking my glasses off
<dutchie> might try that over the holidays
<MichelleQ> I'm supposed to be working on the cognatively impaired persona...  She might be able to pitch in on that, too
<MichelleQ> I'm hoping to have a chance to get to work on that, just as soon as I'm not spending every third day at the clinic.
<UndiFineD> youre a nurse ?
<MichelleQ> haha, no, I wish. 
<MichelleQ> Patient
<UndiFineD> dutchie, hajour says: she likes to work on the profile together, first project you see
<dutchie> oh, ok
<dutchie> fair enough
<UndiFineD> dutchie, hajour says: you can emulate the sight with 2 cocktail glasses
 * MichelleQ recruits hubby for sight-impairment testing
<UndiFineD> ;)
<dutchie> UndiFineD: i am very short sighted, i was wondering how close my unaided eyes are to an officially visually-impaired person
<UndiFineD> I use font size increasement, alot
<MichelleQ> without his lenses, he's pretty impaired.  I'm sure he'd be willing to help out.  :-)  What's one more project?
<dutchie> my prescription is -10 dioptres and i have only met one person who is as bad as me
<hajour_> hai all
<hajour_> its 4 o clock at night here so i stay 10 minits .then i go to sleep
<MichelleQ> good gracious, hajour!
<UndiFineD> tomorrow we 'll let her sign the CoC
<MichelleQ> It's 10pm my time, and I'm struggling to maintain consciousness.
<hajour_> dutchie  if you take to glasses with thick soil and look treu it.then you see like the person
<dutchie> 3 am for me \o/
<dutchie> hajour_: ah, thanks. i will try that when term has finished
<hajour_> the memory person. is that problems with short memory just like me?
<MichelleQ> if memory serves, it's a short-term impairment, yes
<hajour_> ok
<hajour_> imagine you go to a page but you don t find it immediately.and you are 3 pages far.then you already forgot what you are looking for
<hajour_> ore maiby at page s 2 already
<hajour_> is there no spellings control on this chat?
<hajour_> now i have to go to google translate every time
<hajour_> what good help with that problem is.a place in the corner of the monitor  were can note what the person is looking for
<hajour_> i have to study the persons better.but that was coming right in my mind.
<hajour_> if 1 of you want to ask something about me about that sort of things. just ask.you sal not hurt my feelings ore something :P
<hajour_> michelleQ  dont fall asleep on your keyboard else you got tommorow a alphabet tattoo on your face :)
<dutchie> hmm, i will finish this problem sheet in the morning
<dutchie> goodnight everyone
<hajour> i reely need to sleep. tomorow i sal be on chat again.mostly in the evening here
<hajour> sweet dreams dutchie
<hajour> i dont now how late it is in outher country s then
<dutchie> it's 20 past 3 here in the UK
<hajour> here a hour later
<MichelleQ> Night everyone.  I'm headed to bed, too.  :-D
<hajour> night michelle.
<hajour> sweet dreams everyone i am going to sleep to.
<hajour> hai all
<AlanBell> hi
<hajour> already got some information on my wiki page.
<hajour> if i have it understand correctly pendulum is on vacation
<hajour> AlanBell, if i got understand correctly pendulum is on vacation.
<AlanBell> it is thanksgiving weekend in the US
<AlanBell> which seems to be a bigger deal than Christmas
<hajour> but i wonder .if i got a question about the program.wo i can talk to then
<AlanBell> just ask your question
<AlanBell> either someone will know the answer, or perhaps not!
<AlanBell> or we might be able to point you in the right direction to get it answered
<hajour> ok because its the first time i ever work about something like this
<hajour> beter say .i have not got a job in about 18 years because of my handicaps.i just being looking around 1 month.because i now finally can concentrate thanks to the medicin i have from 2 months ago.
<hajour> all i now and can do i have learned myself by doing and reading on internet so mutch i can.
<hajour> and by experience
<hajour> AlanBell,  your person  Faisal got rheumatoid arthritis. this sal be mutch more bad. if the disease sal  progressing.he sal not be able to use his hands at all.he needs a speach commando program with voice recognition.the voice recognition is needed.because he need it also in class 
<mhall119> Pendulum: I created a new series in ubuntu-website: https://launchpad.net/ubuntu-website/light-a11y-theme
<Pendulum> mhall119: thanks :)
<mhall119> you can start targetting your a11y bugs there, and if the design team doesn't get off their butts on this we'll just start doing it ourselves
<mhall119> I'm tired of this back and forth
<Pendulum> so'm I
<mhall119> I just want to see something done
<Pendulum> thanks
<mhall119> so if you and charlie-tca can start collecting ideas of what would make it better, put it there
<hajour> AlanBell, i now it because my mother got that disease
<mhall119> np
<hajour> and i got the beginning symptoms
<hajour> Pendulum,  what you think about my wiki page.its it clear enough for other people?
<hajour> wiki.ubuntu.com/hajour
<UndiFineD> great work mhall119 
<Pendulum> hajour: you have 4 children? how do you manage to ever have time for yourself? ;-)
<Pendulum> hajour: the only thing I'd suggest is removing one of the headings that says "hajour"
<Pendulum> otherwise looks good for now :)
<hajour> i have no time fore myself.:))
<hajour> the 2 times hajour was not the meaning.undifined is already looking at it
<Pendulum> :)
<hajour> the inmoprtant thing is.is that it is understandeble for others
<hajour> i got to look for some spelling control for here in chat :(
<hajour> what also need to be in my wiki profile is:sometimes my the fingers of my left hand refuse to cooperate
<hajour> then i cant use them at all.by exsample then my daughter cut my meat with diner
<hajour> mhall119,  i have heard from undifined what you going to do.realy great
<hajour> o and i already have found 10 alfabet sighn Languages
<hajour> stil looking for the french
<hajour> who has person Henrietta?
<hajour> Faisal need also contrasting colors.because he seeing al kind of grey .meaning more like black on white
<hajour> instead of by exsample yellow he seeing light grey
<hajour> my cousin is colorblind thats why i now it :)
<hajour> Pendulum i now a lot of things for the persons but i can type there because my writing is very bad.undifined was last night 2 hours bussy to make my page with out mistakes :(
<hajour> before that i had checkt already on google for spelling and then with google translate.
<hajour> so 3 and half hours work for me and stil not good
<hajour> mhall119,  i got a question
<Pendulum> hajour: wow. tbh, that's better than a lot of early wiki pages I've seen
<hajour> o i dont now ore it have to be a question on you mhall119 
<hajour> thank you Pendulum 
<hajour> mmm what means tbh
<Pendulum> hajour: sorry, tbh means to be honest
<hajour> ok:)
<hajour> i have put some information in chat 
<hajour> i have tried to use.short lines as posible.pity i could not Select other  fonts
<hajour> Pendulum, think the program can be used on a note book.? i mean taking into account of the strength from the Proccesor?
<Pendulum> hajour: what program?
<hajour> the accessible program
<Pendulum> (sorry, i've been drafing a long e-mail and not paying a huge amount of attention)
<hajour> np :)
<Pendulum> as far as I know, Orca runs fine on a notebook, I know the on screen keyboards and dasher work fine on them
<Pendulum> hajour: does that answer your question?
<hajour> this machine i am using is an  eeepc 901
<Pendulum> heh
<hajour> runni9ng xubuntu 10,10
<Pendulum> I haven't tried Orca on something that small
<hajour> my old pc is dead
<Pendulum> I do use on screen keyboards on my Dell Mini10v, though
<hajour> undifined have say to me orca is to heavy
<Pendulum> ah
<hajour> thats the problem
<hajour> Pendulum, how i can give al of my knowledge for the persons.with out put the chat full of it.they ask me to do some persons.but i have a great problem with writhing.and that is not only in english.also in my own laughwich
<Pendulum> hajour: are you asking how to give feedback without writing it or how to give feedback on a place other than IRC?
<Pendulum> If you are okay giving written feedback, you could e-mail me: pendulum@ubuntu.com , the mailing list: ubuntu-accessibility@lists.ubuntu.com , or possibly AlanBell (but I won't give out his e-mail without his permission)
<Pendulum> If you'd rather do oral feedback, if you can do it in English, we could either set up a call using something like skype for some point in the next week or so or you could record your feedback and mail it to me or post it somewhere and I could transcribe it
<Pendulum> hajour: welcome back :)
<hajour> pust the wrong button
<Pendulum> I do that all the time :)
<hajour> then the notebook was out
<Pendulum> Unfortunately, I know almost no Dutch so I can't help as much with the Dutch -> English issue
<Pendulum> (I started learning Dutch a bit over a year ago and then was really ill for a while so it got put on hold and I've not gotten back to it)
<hajour> Pendulum, i have not al the lines what you just have say from my question till hajour welcom back the part between i miss
<hajour> i just have look back on undifineds pc
<hajour> mmm already lost what there was write down.
<Pendulum> hajour: are you asking how to give feedback without writing it or how to give feedback on a place other than IRC?
<Pendulum> hajour: are you asking how to give feedback without writing it or how to give feedback on a place other than IRC?
<Pendulum> bah, that didn't work
<Pendulum> let me trying pasting that again ;)
<Pendulum> If you are okay giving written feedback, you could e-mail me: pendulum@ubuntu.com , the mailing list: ubuntu-accessibility@lists.ubuntu.com , or possibly AlanBell (but I won't give out his e-mail without his permission)
<Pendulum> If you'd rather do oral feedback, if you can do it in English, we could either set up a call using something like skype for some point in the next week or so or you could record your feedback and mail it to me or post it somewhere and I could transcribe it
<hajour> I will not be annoying to fill the entire chat by spamming
<hajour> of my knowledge
<Pendulum> :)
<hajour> sorry it takes long.have to check first and then translate
<Pendulum> that's fine
<hajour> first i read back
<AlanBell> hi all
<AlanBell> alanbell@ubuntu.com gets to me
<Pendulum> hey AlanBell 
<AlanBell> but chat here or on the list is best because more people see it that way and can learn from it
<Pendulum> yeah
<Pendulum> I was just thinking on personas-specific things it may be more useful to e-mail one of us directly
<hajour> ok
<Pendulum> AlanBell: btw, you may want to check out the long conversation had in -locoteams today
<AlanBell> yes, I have seen some of that
<hajour> i have put some info here for your person to AlanBell 
<AlanBell> just reading back here too
<hajour> :))
<AlanBell> thanks for that hajour, really helpful
<hajour> ok.was hoping already that you har something on it
<hajour> hat i mean
<hajour> wo have henrietta?
<hajour> she looks like me thought :P very bad memory
<Pendulum> hajour: MichelleQ does, although I don't think she's here right now. I suspect she'd love any help you want to give!
<hajour> already now solution in monitor
<hajour> for that person
<hajour> and speak memory program
<hajour> i head is full of idea s
<hajour> to bad i only can up idea s and not more then that
<Pendulum> :)
<hajour> ok i going to eat now.i sal think how i is the best way.o and i dont have a microphone.
<hajour> for i forget.is there also thought about persons wit discalculie?
<Pendulum> hajour: we'd love to think about that, but we just don't have information on it. One of the major limiting factors when it came to personas was where we did or didn't get survey respondants
<UndiFineD> to compute, to calculate, then why is a computer so bad at doing that ?
<hajour> a friend of my daughter got discalculie
<hajour> I can gather information about that
<hajour> I have enough resources where I can get the information from
<hajour> just think about spreadsheets by exsample for office work
<hajour> ore programs fore on school
<hajour> there  is almost nothing fore discalculie
<hajour> children get discalculie abacuses in klas.en that in the year 2010
<hajour> why not a pc program?
<hajour> the  programs that are available are mostly very exspensive.schools dont buy them because of that
<hajour> most of the schools anyway in netherland.same count for the programs for dislectie.i realy find this program realy great
<charlie-tca> mhall119, thank you for helping on that bug
<xrdodrx> Hi guys
<xrdodrx> Kind of an odd question here: Are there any plans to add speech recognition to ubuntu?
<AlanBell> hi xrdodrx 
<AlanBell> perfectly good question :)
<AlanBell> there are two types of speech recognition, speech control which has a limited vocabulary of commands usually trained by the user
<AlanBell> and natural language recognition which is computationally much harder
<xrdodrx> I mean the second one
<xrdodrx> I'm very accustomed to using Dragon and that's one of the reasons I don't use Ubuntu all the time :-(
<xrdodrx> By I'm not here to complain. I just wanted to know about were any plans to add it in the future
<xrdodrx> :)
<Pendulum> xrdodrx: there are technically a couple programs in universe that do voice recognition, however, as far as I know none of them work very well. The problem is that voice recognition is a wider problem in open source software and until the program exists somewhere else, Ubuntu can't add it
<xrdodrx> Oh, I think I'm confused about it then.
<xrdodrx> I thought Ubuntu made its own Acessibility software
<xrdodrx> Sorry :(
<Pendulum> that's okay :)
<Pendulum> most of our accessibility software comes from GNOME
<Pendulum> but GNOME didn't develop all of it
<xrdodrx> Well, we can only hope that one day someone will develop it
<xrdodrx> Or that Nuance open-sources its software
 * xrdodrx laughs :P
<Pendulum> heh
<xrdodrx> thanks anyway :D
<Pendulum> there was an early version of ViaVoice that actually worked on debian and red hat, but this was 5-6 years ago
<Pendulum> doesn't exist anymore :(
<Pendulum> and what I'd like to see is one of the projects that's out there now such as Sphinx or Julian to get to the point where it works well, especially, since they're both still active projects
<xrdodrx> Yeah.
<xrdodrx> What's really strange is why proprietary companies don't release Linux versions :(
<Cheri703> Nuance encompasses a LOT of software these days (they make one of the scanning packages that xerox ships)
<Pendulum> they don't care about it
<xrdodrx> Cheri703: yeah, OmniPage
<xrdodrx> I've used them both
<Pendulum> they don't see Linux to be as important to revenue to bother to port stuff to it
<Pendulum> plus Linux is so varied that it's hard to release "a linux version"
<AlanBell> I think the projects to watch are the ones that get into devices like GPS systems for cars
<AlanBell> or telephone voice control
<Pendulum> not impossible, but you can't release one place
<Pendulum> AlanBell: unfortunately a lot of that is being done by places like Dragon
<xrdodrx> AlanBell: and then you could use that codebase?
<Pendulum> I don't know if you're interested in contributing, but I've been told a couple times that one thing that they always need is more voice samples
<AlanBell> or something like http://live.gnome.org/GnomeVoiceControl for devices without keyboards
<Pendulum> they = the open source voice recognition projects
<xrdodrx> Pendulum: I could do that
<xrdodrx> I don't know how to code, but I could talk :P
<AlanBell> actually there is a nice list of applications for sphinx http://cmusphinx.sourceforge.net/wiki/sphinxinaction
<Cheri703> xrdodrx: apparently DNS in wine works for some people
<xrdodrx> Cheri703: I use DNS on a lot of machines; the one I'm on right now is a netbook. Wine would slow it down terribly :(
<Cheri703> :/
<Cheri703> well, for reference: http://grcomputerworks.blogspot.com/2010/05/installing-dragon-naturally-speaking-in.html
<xrdodrx> But I have used it in Wine before ^^
<Cheri703> ah, ok
<xrdodrx> Also, voice recognition isn't really just an accessibility thing: sure, it's helpful for disabled people, but it's also very useful just for writing documents.
<xrdodrx> (IMO)
<Pendulum> xrdodrx: I agree :)
<Pendulum> AlanBell: is Sphinx in the software center, do you remember?
<Pendulum> I keep thinking it isn't, which is frustrating because it's generally the first open source voice recognition people mention IME
<AlanBell> !info spinx2-bin
<ubot2> AlanBell: Package spinx2-bin does not exist in maverick
<AlanBell> !info sphinx2-bin
<ubot2> AlanBell: sphinx2-bin (source: sphinx2): speech recognition utilities. In component universe, is optional. Version 0.6-2.1 (maverick), package size 126 kB, installed size 488 kB
<Pendulum> \o/
<xrdodrx> Only 500 kB?
<Pendulum> I happen to know a few people who've used it successfully to program robots to respond to voice commands
<xrdodrx> That doesn't sound possible xD
<AlanBell> xrdodrx: I think it pulls in other stuff
<xrdodrx> Ah.
<Pendulum> also, I'm not sure if it has a GUI
<AlanBell> !info pocketsphinx-utils
<ubot2> AlanBell: pocketsphinx-utils (source: pocketsphinx): lightweight speech recognition - command-line tools. In component universe, is optional. Version 0.5.1+dfsg1-0ubuntu1 (maverick), package size 22 kB, installed size 112 kB
<AlanBell> that too
<xrdodrx> Pendulum: That would kill it for me.
<xrdodrx> (make it useless)
<Pendulum> yeah
<AlanBell> yeah, last time I looked they seemed like "here is an awesome library, all you have to do is write an entire front end to it"
<Pendulum> OTOH, the library is generally the hard part
<AlanBell> yes, very true
<AlanBell> !info python-pocketsphinx
<ubot2> AlanBell: python-pocketsphinx (source: pocketsphinx): lightweight speech recognition - Python module. In component universe, is optional. Version 0.5.1+dfsg1-0ubuntu1 (maverick), package size 35 kB, installed size 180 kB
<xrdodrx> Well, I guess we'll just have to see what the future holds :D
<AlanBell> I was trying to get the python wrapper to talk to me (or vice versa as it happens)
<xrdodrx> If someone gives me somewhere to send voice samples, I can do that much
<xrdodrx> :)
<Pendulum> one of the things that I've noticed with a lot of open source accessibility software is that it's done by universities
<xrdodrx> Probably people that want to work for Nuance
<xrdodrx> or similar
<Pendulum> nah. a lot of the people have moved on to do nothing in accessibility at all
<AlanBell> yeah, lots of almost identical not quite finished things done by students who move on
<Pendulum> right
<Pendulum> or where it gets moved on between students over time (i.e. dasher)
<JanC> there isn't much money to gain in accessibility for linux currently, while there are innitial costs for research etc.
<Pendulum> I know :(
<xrdodrx> Other than my eternal gratitude
<xrdodrx> XD;
<Pendulum> also, this is not an issue for something being worked on by graduate students, but I know as an undergrad in the programming courses I took, we never worked on developing anything using a GUI
<Pendulum> actually, not quite true, we did do java applets
<Pendulum> but that was it
<Pendulum> and I know that the python and C classes didn't do any developing of a GUI program
<Pendulum> (and the current students at my uni would even get the java applets since they no longer teach java at all)
<xrdodrx> Still, this would probably hurt nuances business. It wouldn't take long for a very useful Linux application to be ported to Windows
<xrdodrx> I just sometimes wish that it would work vice versa
<xrdodrx> :-)
<Pendulum> heh
<JanC> you can buy nuances technology for linux, just no end-user stuff
<JanC> it's used in the embeded market though
 * xrdodrx is an end-user
<xrdodrx> Embedded market? Do you mean like cell phones and stuff?
<JanC> more like phone menus and other stuff
<xrdodrx> Because most cell phones are based on Linux/Unix
<xrdodrx> As far as I know
<JanC> actually, most cell phones are based on Symbian
<xrdodrx> Symbian?
 * xrdodrx goes to Google
<JanC> OS from Nokia, became open source recently
<Cheri703> symbian is rapidly losing market share though
<xrdodrx> I was talking about iPhone (unix/Mac OS), 
<JanC> Cheri703: they have > 50% of the smartphone market, and a huge lump of the ordinary phone market
<Cheri703> android is linux though
<Cheri703> *too
<xrdodrx> Android (linux), that other one that starts with an M...
<Cheri703> meego I think? maybe?
<xrdodrx> Yeah
<JanC> Maemo/Meego
<xrdodrx> I was thinking of Maemo
<xrdodrx> actually
<JanC> there are no Meego phones yet, but it is a fusion of Maemo with Intel's mobile linux
<Cheri703> http://blog.connectedplanetonline.com/unfiltered/2010/11/10/android-ios-overtake-rim-hone-in-on-symbian/
<Cheri703> symbian (according to these numbers) has more like 37% and falling
<Cheri703> (smartphone)
<xrdodrx> Wait, is the BlackBerry OS Linux or Symbian?
<Cheri703> but most "dumbphones" won't be having speech recognition included in general
<xrdodrx> LOL dumb phones
<JanC> Blackberry is an OS based on AROS or something like that IIRC
<Pendulum> I wish I could find a stat on Symbian that wasn't off their own website (which is where the >50% thing comes from)
<Pendulum> I have also been under the impression that Symbian was on a downturn and whether they can reverse that or not has yet to be seen
<JanC> oh no, QNX
<Cheri703> supposedly symbian.org is closing down next month
<Cheri703> Pendulum: search "android ios symbian market share"
<JanC> ah no, it's their new OS that is based on QNX
<Cheri703> that's where I found that link
<AlanBell> I remember QNX, they did an amazing OS on a single floppy
<JanC> well, Nokia is working on Meego to replace Symbian for high end phones
<JanC> for Smarphones basically
<JanC> AlanBell: the Blackberry tablet OS is based on QNX
<Pendulum> Nokia has some major issues with selling smartphones in the US
<Pendulum> or at least has in the past
<JanC> Pendulum: they are still the largest smartphone manufacturer in the world
<Pendulum> (largely because they haven't managed to strike deals with the mobile phone networks so things like the N95 were $800)
<Pendulum> yeah
<Pendulum> but even they admit that that's not due to sales in the US
 * Cheri703 is an HTC fan
<xrdodrx> I do not even think that any Nokia phones are offered by my carrier
<Pendulum> I like my iPhone. I've liked the Nokia smartphones I've used, but I'd never be able to afford them in the US
<Pendulum> xrdodrx: who is your carrier?
<xrdodrx> Cheri703: yeah, I have an HTC EVO
<xrdodrx> Pendulum: Sprint
<JanC> locking a phone to a carrier is forbidden in Belgium  :P
<Pendulum> heh
<Pendulum> I wish it were here too
<Cheri703> I'm lusting after the evo, I'm due for an upgrade, but waiting til the price drops a bit
<Cheri703> I have the hero
<Pendulum> I think it's forbidden in France as well
 * xrdodrx wishes it was forbidden in the US
<xrdodrx> Well, we can't even get net neutrality, but that's a whole different matter
<Pendulum> on the other hand, the phones might end up being as expensive as unlocked phones are generally 
<Pendulum> JanC: how expensive are smartphones in Belgium?
<JanC> phones are expensive, but you can get free or cheap phones with some contracts, they just can't lock the phone to it
<Pendulum> ah, okay
<JanC> you still have to pay the contract of course
<Pendulum> so that does still happen
<Pendulum> yeah
<Pendulum> we can get free, cheap, or cheaper-than-full price phones in the US with contract
<JanC> but no "iPhones only work with network X"
<Pendulum> or we can get really expensive phones that aren't locked to one network
<Pendulum> (like the Nokia smartphones)
<xrdodrx> JanC: do they sell iPhones in Belgium?
<JanC> xrdodrx: they do (first refused to do so while they lobbied to get the law changed, but that didn't work :P )
<JanC> even "cheap" contracts that don't come with free/cheaper phone are more expensive than prepaid for me, so I'm totally not interrested in any of those expensive contract offers that come with "a cheaper smartphone"...  :P
<AlanBell> mhall119: got a sec to talk about this light-a11y-theme thing?
<mhall119> AlanBell: sure
<AlanBell> so looks like it is based on light-base-theme
<AlanBell> I haven't really used that, what is it for?
<AlanBell> and is this series something that would ever get deployed anywhere?
<mhall119> AlanBell: right now it's a direct copy of light-base-theme
<mhall119> but it's going to be the place I start implementing accessibility changes
<AlanBell> great
<AlanBell> we learned some interesting things over the last few days, principally that ubuntu-website is nothing to do with website design
<mhall119> it's goal is to be the implementation of the design team's designs
<mhall119> light-a11y-theme is going to break from that unless and until we get an accessible design from the design team
<AlanBell> ok, so what prevents us doing a stack of work on light-ally-theme which then sits there not being used on any websites?
<mhall119> I'm hoping it won't be more than alternate css stylesheets, so they can be adopted by the other light-*-theme branches
<mhall119> AlanBell: well, I maintain the light-django-theme, so I'll make sure it goes there
<mhall119> you're doing light-moin-theme, aren't you?
<AlanBell> well kind of
<AlanBell> in fact no, I am not
<mhall119> well, however maintains those others would be responsible for incorporating the accessible design changes
<AlanBell> I have offered code to fix some bugs in light-moin-theme
<mhall119> all light-a11y-theme will do will be provide them with the settings
<mhall119> kind of like what light-base-theme was
<AlanBell> there isn't any direct inheritance of base theme though is there?
<mhall119> not technically, though light-django-theme uses unmodified css from the base theme
<mhall119> but I think light-django is the only one that does
<AlanBell> ok, I have done stuff with light-moin-theme and light-wordpress theme but I don't recognise much in light-base-theme
<mhall119> I think light-wordpress-theme used an existing wordpress theme and modified that to look like the base theme, instead of going the other way
<mhall119> not sure how moin came about
<mhall119> who is maintaining the moin theme?
<AlanBell> newz2000 is maintaining it
<mhall119> ok
<AlanBell> it wasn't on launchpad until I made a fuss about it
<AlanBell> and now the trunk on launchpad is behind the production server as some live changes were made
<mhall119> glad you did, cause I've got some changes to it for him
<mhall119> live changes, FTL
<AlanBell> indeed
<AlanBell> especially as there is an outstanding approved merge request with the changes in
<AlanBell> some bits got cherry picked from that and implemented live without updating trunk
#ubuntu-accessibility 2010-11-28
<cprofitt> Pendulum: you here?
<cprofitt> hey Cheri703 
<undifined_> o/
<cprofitt> hey undifined_ 
<undifined_> hmm, got disconnected i see
<cprofitt> lol
<cprofitt> that used to happen to me a lot
<cprofitt> not sure what has changed
<UndiFineD> less downloads :p
<cprofitt> no... the only thing I can think of is I switched to irssi
<UndiFineD> well, it aint telnet, so it is user-friendlier
<cprofitt> lol
<cprofitt> hey telnet was the shizzle in the fay
<cprofitt> day
<Cheri703> hi
 * MichelleQ waves
<cprofitt> hello MichelleQ 
<cprofitt> getting to work on the accessibility page for making table menus
<UndiFineD> hey Cheri703 , MichelleQ 
<Cheri703> what is the best way for me to help with accessibility related things? I've got a relatively limited skillset I think when it comes to these things :/
<cprofitt> you guys think that should be part of the accessibility wiki?
<Pendulum> cprofitt: I think it should
<cprofitt> Cheri703: well... I know there are some testing guidelines being created
<cprofitt> and those are always helpful
<Pendulum> since the point is specifically how to make accessible wiki tables
<cprofitt> Pendulum: cool... I will start making it there... and add a link
<Cheri703> testing guidelines?
<cprofitt> Cheri703: I believe charlie-tca has some tests that people can perform
<cprofitt> given parameters to simulate lacking a sense or fucntion
<cprofitt> that will help test if accessibility is truly working
<Cheri703> ok
<Cheri703> I gotcha
<cprofitt> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Accessibility/Testing/ColorAndContrast?highlight=%28CategoryAccessibility%29
<cprofitt> is an example
<cprofitt> sorry about the long url
<Cheri703> np
<Cheri703> ok, that makes sense
<MichelleQ> Cheri703: Pendulum and I are working on testing guidelines - dos and don'ts- with a goal of having them written by Alpha1
<Cheri703> ah, ok
<MichelleQ> love to have you help with those, if you feel so inclined
<Cheri703> I'd suggest adding a "does it work when needing an administrative password?" check...the keyboard doesn't, I wonder if screen reading software would cut out when it greys out everything but the password window
<Cheri703> uhm, sure?
<MichelleQ> I'll ping you when we set off to work on those.  Gonna be a little while, just because of scheduling
<Cheri703> kk
<cprofitt> anyone want to proof ready
<cprofitt> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Accessibility/MenuDesign
<MichelleQ> My only issue - hyphenate "one column" and "three column"
 * cprofitt nods
<MichelleQ> because I'm assuming you're making one-column headers, and three-column headers, right? 
<MichelleQ> as opposed to one column-header, and three column-headers?
<cprofitt> I do not understand that difference
<cprofitt> let me grab Strunk and White :-)
<MichelleQ> tables, I mean
<MichelleQ> so, a table made up of one column, and a table made up of three columns, yes?
<cprofitt> yes...
<MichelleQ> then yes, hyphenate
<cprofitt> we will have one table made up of three columns
<cprofitt> and included in it will be three tables that are one column each
<MichelleQ> ok, so one three-column table, made up of three one-column tables
<MichelleQ> does that make sense?
<cprofitt> yes
<cprofitt> changes made -- can you make sure I caught the correct ones
<MichelleQ>  Will check
<cprofitt> thanks
<cprofitt> appreciate the help
<MichelleQ> perfect!
<cprofitt> cool...
<MichelleQ> now there's no room for mis-interpretation
<cprofitt> Pendulum: do you want this to be linked from a specific page or to become a menu item in one of the tables?
<hajour> MichelleQ,  for to think like how your person Henrietta experience with memory.take a time watch.put that on about 30 sec.go look on by exsample a recepie on google.if the timewatch go s off.you already forgot where you was looking for.
<cprofitt> hey nigelb 
<nigelb> heya
<hajour> sugestion for a ssolusion is just put in my wiki
<UndiFineD> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/hajour/accesibility
<hajour> MichelleQ,  i got the same handicap as your person henrietta
<hajour> so i have tryd to think about it.
<Pendulum> cprofitt: ultimately we need a documentation wiki page which is where I want it to go. let me think about where it should be right now (but I don't know if I'll have an answer tonight)
<cprofitt> Pendulum: sounds good... it is there for you to do what you will
<UndiFineD> oh here is a good one, hajour forgets where she has left her files, now ofcourse we have a search function, but she also forgets how she named things ...
<Cheri703> does ubuntu have a "search for text in file" option?
<Cheri703> I could see the case sensitivity being an issue in that case
<UndiFineD> yes it is called grep
<UndiFineD> find . -name "?" -exec grep -ilr '?' {} \;
<Cheri703> k, perhaps including something that will do that for people? if I'm having trouble remembering where my document is, I'm a. not likely to remember to use grep, and b. likely to remember the syntax
<hajour> i name  the file,i put it somewhere.the moment i have put it there.i already have forgot.how the name was and where i put it
<hajour> and that is very annoying and frustrating
<hajour> also very annoying and frustating is every time to have to go to google translate for the same word
<hajour> its so good for your self image
<hajour> nott
<maco> Cheri703: tracker/beagle (whatever it is) indexes file contents (including pdf) so you can do that
<Cheri703> ok, I don't know what that is, but it sounds neat :)
<JanC> best use tracker these days, I think
<Cheri703> hajour: can you start a local dictionary for yourself? copy/paste from google translate as you look things up?
<hajour> google got not al words.i just have many time asked undifined how to wright words
<hajour> if i hat not undifined.I probably never dared to come here to chat
<maco> don't feel bad if you forget a word in a foreign language a few times before it sticks
<maco> i would certainly not be doing nearly as well as you are if i was in a not-english chatroom
<hajour> i also got the same problem in my own language
<maco> ah you mean referring to spelling? you mentioned dyslexia, right?
<hajour> i often wright a word the same way like spoken
<hajour> yes
<maco> i often wish languages worked that way
 * maco shakes fist at russian professor who claimed it was all phoneti
<maco> *phonetic
<hajour> very bad combi dislecie and memory problem
<maco> (if a russian ever tells you their language is phonetic, they are a liar)
<UndiFineD> da
<JanC> well, it's more phonetic than English probably
<maco> JanC: thats a point
<hajour> i never understood that they calles the writing problem diclecie i every time forget how to write it .what a joke
<maco> but the thing where the o's become a's if they're right before the stressed syllable (i think? or maybe they're only o's in that case and a's otherwise?) ... that part is evil for my reading abilities
<JanC> hajour: what chat-client do you use?
<hajour> ???
<UndiFineD> xchat JanC 
<hajour> maco,  ???
<maco> hajour: in russian, O's are said like A's if they are in certain parts of the word, so i can never look at russian words and read them out loud without sounding silly
<hajour> in netherland you got a o u e au ou eu ai enz
<hajour> a oke :))
<hajour> mmm i dont now ore i have put the ue au ou in the right way
<hajour> i always mix them.
<JanC> always the "u" as the second one
<hajour> :) try to remember al my life
<hajour> its hard to explane.because i dont now how the schools work in by exsample amerika.but i trye .because of my problem i have done school 2 levels lower then i good
<hajour> my reason for helping.that hopfely others can do 
<hajour> my goal is next year to go to school again.the idea already shiffers me :))
<hajour> if it is not hard to read.you can say it.then i ask undifined to wright it good
<UndiFineD> write
<hajour> hehehe
<JanC> to be honest, many native English speakers write words like that wrong
<JanC> English is really difficult to write correctly, except by memorising all those words
<hajour> XD my netherlands its also bad in writing
<hajour> just looked up in google by exsample netherlans word for fish is vis.i often wright fis
<JanC> your dutch isn't that bad for being dyslexic  ;)
<hajour> XD undifined is being 2 hours busy to get the falts out of my wiki
<JanC> BTW: xchat does have a spelling checker, but only for the language you installed the OS in
<hajour> mmm oke 
<maco> hajour: i proofread for other native english speakers *plenty* ... i have one friend, who every time he writes a blog post, i send him corrections
<UndiFineD> indeed it JanC it highlights which wors is spelled wrong, but does not correct it
<hajour> but then i bin longer busy to look for get the falts out then go looking on google translate 
<hajour> and google translate only works if you write the word in your own laugwich good
<hajour> i just often taking a chance for how to writhe
<hajour> mmm write just read back :))
<hajour> btw JanC  if i bin in ubuntu nl i look every time on google how to writhe
<hajour> grrr write
<JanC> this makes me think, I once chatted with a dyslexic programmer who wrote a special programming editor for himself (for use on Windows)
<hajour> i got linux
<JanC> because humans can understand what you mean when it's wrong, but computers don't
<UndiFineD> nah their just being lazy 
<hajour> XD
<hajour> but JanC  is right
<UndiFineD> OO.o does do word replacement
<UndiFineD> hte becomes the
<hajour> i just looked on the clock and the time remindet me that i realy need to sleep
<hajour> its 4.35 in night now here
<JanC> xchat can do that too
<JanC> UndiFineD: ^^^
<Cheri703> I was just about to say that JanC :)
<hajour> so good night all
<UndiFineD> how ?
<JanC> slaapwel hajour 
<hajour> i go sleep for a couple of hours
<hajour> :)
<JanC> UndiFineD: Instellingen -> Uitgebreid -> Auto vervangen...
<JanC> that's how I do: âº
<UndiFineD> but there is just one word in that list
<JanC> you can add your own
<UndiFineD> o_O, why not produce one huge list and make it available for all apps
<UndiFineD> and like hajour says next to me: if you do not know how to spell it correctly ... how would that work
<Cheri703> well, some words you might accidentally type like write as right, but when you DO want right, you don't want it to autocorrect to write...if that makes sense
<JanC> yeah, it's especially bad in English  ;)
<UndiFineD> it does for me
<UndiFineD> but weirt should become write and such a list could be devised
<UndiFineD> unless is was meant as weird
<Cheri703> yeah
<Cheri703> that's the hard part UndiFineD 
<UndiFineD> add a bit of AI and it could read sentences
<JanC> not to mention when the incorrectly spelled word is also a valid English word  ;)
<UndiFineD> even then, a good AI would see you meant something diffirent
<JanC> if an AI that good existed, everybody could write an operating system by explain to the computer how it should work...  ;)
<UndiFineD> I have seen working AI that way
<UndiFineD> I will find such a thing tomorrow
<UndiFineD> as I am heading for bed as well now
<JanC> a grammar checker could help...
<JanC> and some intelligence in a spelling checker
<UndiFineD> ok 
<UndiFineD> o/
<hajour> hai all
<hajour> undifined just have put some more of my idea s and note in my wiki accessibility page
<hajour> undifined s pc just have crased again treu to run the orca program
<hajour> there are note s and idea ad for memory and Partially Sighted and blind people
<UndiFineD> Speech Dispatcher crashes frequently on a dual processor system -> Install Speech Dispatcher 0.6.6 or later. It fixes important SMP bugs.
<UndiFineD> which is not in maverick
<UndiFineD> oh, it is 7.5 but still not resolved
<hajour> from last night we have add 5 new adiea s bij wiki hajour accessibily page
<hajour> make it add 9 idea s note s by wiki hajour accessibility
<hajour> very strange no one on the list  what i hsave see by undifined got dislectie/adhd  ore related.10 % of allpeople in the world got a kind of dislectie.
<hajour> 50 % of poeple with adhd ore related have a kind of dislectie
<mhall119> it's possible that there are people with dislexia that just don't know it
<UndiFineD> ignorance is bliss
<UndiFineD> for some that is
<hajour> ok but its only logicol that one of the personalty s got something like that mixed with something else
<hajour> some ask me to work also on the persons.i sal do what i can.but it sal need spellingcontrol from someone else.google translate .gives not always the right words.
<hajour> AlanBell, is it allowed  in a attached page tu put a few poems?
<hajour> from own writhing?
<dutchie> hajour: i'd imagine it would be ok as a sub page, so on say http://wiki.ubuntu.com/hajour/Poems
<hajour> thats what i ment
<UndiFineD> :)
<hajour> undifined sal check on spelling
<hajour> 2 dutch poems if we can translate them to english to and 1 english
<hajour> it are not bad poems i think
#ubuntu-accessibility 2011-11-21
<AlanBell> anyone started any precise testing yet?
<AlanBell> gah, nothing works :( it can see the frames but both orca itself and ubiquity are inaccessible
<AlanBell> TheMuso: do I need to do some magic to get orca to read ubiquity in precise? It reads window titles but says ubiquity is inaccessible
<maco> it didnt used to read window titles for ubiquity. funky
<TheMuso> AlanBell: I don't know. I need to have a look myself.
<TheMuso> maco: I think he means the title bar, i.e the part that is rendered by the window manager.
<TheMuso> AlanBell: I think I know why ubiquity is not accessible.
<TheMuso> Actually, I am sure I know why,.
<TheMuso> Easy enough fix, will push it today.
<AlanBell> ok, nothing is accessible when I get to the desktop either
<maco> TheMuso: wait does it ust say "installer frame" or something?
<AlanBell> yes, something like "installer frame inaccessible"
<TheMuso> AlanBell: Yeah, I know why.,
<AlanBell> ok, great
<TheMuso> AlanBell: Temp fix: sudo ln /usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/gtk-3.0/modules/libatk-bridge.so /usr/lib/gtk-3.0/modules
<AlanBell> there was some chatter in -desktop earlier about harmonising the ubiquity timzone selector and the time/date indicator selector
<AlanBell> both are pretty rubbish with orca I think
<TheMuso> I made the atk bridge for at-spi2 multi-arch, but GTK3 is not yet multi-arch enabled.
<TheMuso> Ok making them the same makes sense, we then only need to work on the one.
<AlanBell> but if someone is poking about there then it might be an opportunity to get that working
<AlanBell> it is because it is a fake dropdown widget
<TheMuso> Riiight.
<TheMuso> I.e a custom widget, which means it likely needs some atk code.
<TheMuso> *sigh*
<AlanBell> yeah
<AlanBell> that temp fix works
<TheMuso> Yup thought it would.
<TheMuso> I'll move the atk bridge file back to where it was for now, till GTK3 is enabled for multi-arch.
#ubuntu-accessibility 2011-11-22
<Pendulum> maco: fregl, can one of you do a write up on Kubuntu a11y plans for Precise that can go on the Ubuntu A11y team blog? (or find someone else who can write it?)
<maco> Pendulum: i think "make it stop exploding" is the gist of it
<Pendulum> maco: yes, but I'd like to do something for the blog :P
<Pendulum> jono is going to do a general a11y plans post, but I'm going to aim to get specific blog posts out about the plans broken down the way we broke down the blueprints out on our blog as well (so one for Kubuntu, one for testing, one for devel, and one for community)
<maco> other than that, i think we kinda are stuck for a qt version of orca
<joanie> Orca will have a qt-based ui before too long for what it's worth
<maco> joanie: yeah i know its on the roadmap, i just dont know if itll be ready for precise 
<maco> we cant fit gtk on the cd to ship orca :-/
<joanie> depends on when I get a chance to focus on it
<joanie> maco who are you? I'm Orca project lead :)
<joanie> I might could be persuaded to do the work sooner ;)
<maco> oh shiny that
<maco> i'm a worry-wart :P (oh no i turned into mum)
<maco> joanie: if there's a qt version of orca, i'm the person who'll be trying to figure out how to make the installer set it up to run by default if used during install (and also getting the installer to offer it for use during install)
<fregl> maco: I would not see it as drastically - make orca play nice is already a good goal
<fregl> maco: the bigger problem is that plasma won't be able to use it any time soon
<maco> ugh yeah.... :-/
<joanie> +1 to that goal fregl 
<joanie> where are we with that anyway?
<fregl> Pendulum: I won't really get around to writing it
<maco> i think kde still explodes when a11y is turne don
<joanie> I've started installing KDE on all my systems but I've not yet had a chance to look at Orca with it 
<fregl> joanie: I run my apps with qt a11y just fine. very seldom something crashes. now finetuning and corner cases are needed.
<fregl> joanie: only with qt 4.8, most distros ship 4.7 which is useless
<joanie> fregl I think F16 is 4.8
 * joanie looks
<maco> fregl: were things only exploading with the bridge, but working with kaccessible?
<fregl> ah, nice
<maco> (i dont remember explosions when i tested kaccessible on natty)
<fregl> maco: I think yes
<fregl> maco: good point, I keep forgetting about kaccessible
<joanie> fregl: confirmed. I have qt 4.8 
<maco> last cycle, i got kaccessible into the default kubuntu install
<maco> but didnt get it hooked into the installer
<maco> and then it was all "bridge bridge no more kaccessible" and then it didnt seem worth doing...and then things exploded...
<fregl> joanie: wow, I should test fedora - building the stuff is easy - so I'll need to find someone to create a package
<joanie> fregl: so then it is indeed worth it for me to prioritize making a Qt gui for Orca?
<fregl> joanie: according to kubuntu folks yes
<joanie> suhweet! :)
<maco> in kubuntu we can either ship kaccessible or a qt version of orca. we dont have space for gtk. trouble with kaccessible is that if the user installs any gtk app later....they get squat
<maco> regardless of which is chosen to be shipped, as fregl says, plasma is still sadface so im not really sure how the user will launch applications...but im sure some workaround can be found
<fregl> yes, plasma it's either a) very hackish solution but I don't have time or b) properly done by adding graphicsview support which would require more time even
<joanie> what's the story with plasma?
<fregl> joanie: it's based on the graphicsview framework which we don't really have in scope to get accessible - the successor is qml/qt quick which will be. plasma will move. but not any time soon.
<joanie> ah
<maco> fregl: i wonder if itd be possible to port krunner to qml/qt-quick so that there's a way to launch things
<fregl> maco: krunner uses a line edit - that should just work TM
<fregl> I should try some time...
<fregl> hm, it's not as easy as changing ld library path, this will have to wait :(
<maco> uses a line edit?
<maco> im confused
<fregl> oh, maybe it is
<fregl> ok, krunner works
<fregl> at least the text entry which is the most important thing I guess... maybe
<fregl> argh, but the list below
<fregl> maco: well, the line edit in krunner is working fine, the list below is not... I guess that's not good enough
<jono> Pendulum, do you have that content yet?
#ubuntu-accessibility 2011-11-23
<Pendulum> Has anyone heard from Charlie since UDS?
<AlanBell> is charlietca Charlie Kravetz?
<AlanBell> yes it is
<AlanBell> Pendulum: alive and well on G+
<AlanBell> https://plus.google.com/101985057333807748578/posts
<Pendulum> okay, so I've just either not seen him on IRC or he hasn't been on IRC
<Pendulum> either is possible
<jono> Pendulum, AlanBell, TheMuso is there a big version of https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Accessibility/HeaderMain?action=AttachFile&do=get&target=accessibilityteam.png anywhere?
<AlanBell> I drew it, one sec . . .
<AlanBell> jono: http://people.ubuntu.com/~alanbell/accessibilityteam8.png
<jono> AlanBell, perfect, thanks!
<jono> AlanBell, can you review a draft in a moment for me?
<jono> I want to make sure the entry covers everything
<AlanBell> sure jono 
<jono> thanks AlanBell, just finishing it up now, will be a few mins
<jono> AlanBell, can you see http://www.jonobacon.org/2011/11/24/ubuntu-12-04-accessibility-plans/ ?
<jono> this is not published yet
<jono> hence the disqus error at the bottom
<AlanBell> just a 404 for me
<jono> bah
<jono> AlanBell, ok, will mail you the text
<AlanBell> great, me @ubuntu.com
<jono> sent
<AlanBell> reading
<jono> I would like to highlight some other members of the team at the bottom too
<jono> if you can recommend some names
<AlanBell> maco TheMuso 
<Pendulum> Alan Bell, Mackenzie Morgan, Charlie Kravetz, Luke Yelavich, Frederick (whatever fregl's last name is)
<TheMuso> Gladhorn
<Pendulum> TheMuso: did I spell your last name correctly?
<TheMuso> Yes.
<Pendulum> yay!
<AlanBell> The Kubuntu team is going to work to integrate more accessibility into
<AlanBell> their desktop. This will include improving the *qt-at-spi* integration
<AlanBell> with *at-spi*
<AlanBell> should that be at-spi2 ?
<AlanBell> or at-spi-2?
<Pendulum> ooh, good point at-spi2
<AlanBell> it does say at-spi on the blueprint https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/desktop-p-kubuntu-accessibility
<Pendulum> it says dbus, though
<Pendulum> which is at-spi2
<AlanBell> ok, so apart from that I can see no issues jono
<jono> thanks AlanBell
 * jono updates
<jono> now it says "This will include improving the *qt-at-spi* integration with *at-spi2*"
<jono> thanks
<jono> ok, this will go live tomorrow
<jono> thanks all for your input
<AlanBell> thanks jono 
<jono> :-)
#ubuntu-accessibility 2011-11-25
<joanie> TheMuso: ping
<Pendulum> http://www.h-online.com/open/news/item/Ubuntu-sets-out-accessibility-plans-for-12-04-1385188.html
<AlanBell> ooh, nice
<phillw> Hi AlanBell would you be so kind as to pop meetingology onto #sii, thanks :)
<AlanBell> done phillw 
<phillw> AlanBell: thanks :)
<TheMuso> joanie: yo
<zkriesse> SUP
<TheMuso> joanie: Ok seems like youre not around, just ask your question and I'll answer when I am around.
#ubuntu-accessibility 2011-11-26
<joanie> TheMuso: yo back at ya. It's not a question as much as a statement.  I saw Jono's blog and the associated blueprint item re Qt frontend for Orca. I am doing some preliminary changes (moving the rest of Orca's gui away from GtkBuilder). Then I will tackle a Qt gui for Orca.
<TheMuso> joanie: Sweet. IMO its not a priority, but it is certainly a nice to have.
<TheMuso> As this cycle I was going to at least look at what was required, but since you seem to want to take a stab at it, thats great.
#ubuntu-accessibility 2011-11-27
<kurisu> hi guys is it possible to use compiz with 11.10 & gnome 3
<kurisu> .... partly blind and need the colour filters that compiz provides
<joanie> kurisu: In theory you can use it in "fallback mode." But not gnome-shell.
<kurisu> hmmm
<kurisu> so I have to use unity if I want to use 11.10 and compiz
<joanie> or fallback mode in gnome 3
<joanie> slowly but surely they are re-adding the missing functionality (at least with respect to color filters, etc.) into gnome-shell. I'm photophobic so I need the reverse contrast and feel your pain.
<kurisu> apt-get install gnome-session-fallback???
<kurisu> already did that but cannot get compiz working 
<joanie> kurisu: no :)
<kurisu> oh
<joanie> it's a system setting
 * joanie looks
<kurisu> oh right
<kurisu> thanks
<joanie> it's under System Info
<joanie> so gnome-control-center (or that 'name' menu in the right)
<kurisu> I basically used reverse contrast filters for everything
<joanie> system settings if you use the menu route
<kurisu> ok in there
<joanie> then under system info it's under graphics
<joanie> log out, log back in, and compiz should work
<joanie> (be launchable)
<kurisu> just states "Experience: Fallback"
<kurisu> no options
<AlanBell> kurisu: so what is wrong with unity? is it that compiz doesn't affect it?
<kurisu> I hate unity
<kurisu> ... basically
<kurisu> I want gnome... with compiz
<AlanBell> which bit do you hate?
<kurisu> ... (need compiz to be able to see _
<kurisu> everything
<kurisu> its just not a very good desktop in my opinion
<joanie> kurisu: yes, experience is fallback
<joanie> and then log out
<joanie> log back in
<joanie> then launch compiz, ccsm, etc.
<joanie> if you are not familiar with compiz-launching, I think it's compiz --replace but I cannot test on this system at the moment
<kurisu> ok i'll try thanks
<kurisu> hmm that didn't go so well
<kurisu> just got loads of errors... looked like compiz had 'taken over' but none of the kb shortcuts worked and everything was unuseable
<AlanBell> you might need to configure some more of the compiz plugins
<kurisu> hmmm I just loaded my old compiz config
<kurisu> just checked the errors: (unity-window-decorator:5315): Gtk-WARNING **: Unable to locate theme engine in module_path: "pixmap",
<kurisu> does that mean unity is still being used?
<AlanBell> I think it means that the plugins are horribly messed up if you are not using unity
<kurisu> oh
<AlanBell> unity is a compiz plugin, and a load of others are turned off as conflicts
<AlanBell> you might need to turn off the unity plugin
<kurisu> It's already off
<joanie> kurisu: look for the gnome keyboard/compatibility plugin in ccsm
<joanie> that gives you your shortcuts I believe
<kurisu> the kb command plugin?? 
<kurisu> seem to have nothing set
<joanie> kurisu: I'm being summmoned for dinner. But on a machine at home I got this all working.... I can try to look later if you cannot sort it out.
<kurisu> ok thanks
<TheMuso> It would have been nice to know why he doesn't like Unity.
<TheMuso> Other than he doesn't think it a very good desktop.
<AlanBell> it would
<AlanBell> most people who don't like unity just don't like it, without specifics
 * AlanBell doesn't like the alt-tab, application switcher so I use a different window switcher
<AlanBell> the global menu I am not a fan of, but it is OK
<AlanBell> window buttons on the left are fine, really don't care
 * TheMuso nods.
<AlanBell> the launcher is fine on the left, but I set it to never hide, popping in and out was annoying
<AlanBell> the applications lens is fundamentally badly designed, it is rubbish at showing me the applications I have and puts more effort into showing me applications from the software centre that I don't have, so I built a new lens that groups them by category like the menu used to
<TheMuso> To each their own.
<TheMuso> Cool.
<AlanBell> http://people.ubuntu.com/~alanbell/appmenulens.png
<TheMuso> Nice.
#ubuntu-accessibility 2012-11-23
<Pendulum> is anyone else following the converation on the list with the guy who has just installed Ubuntu for the first time since the change to Unity? I'm reading and I think he's getting advice based on 12.04 when he said he was using 12.10.
<Pendulum> Since my brain is not fully working can someone confirm and either reply pointing out the differences from 12.04 or I can reply pointing out the major difference which is that Unity 2D doesn't exist any more
#ubuntu-accessibility 2012-11-24
<Fudge> helloha
#ubuntu-accessibility 2014-11-19
<Fudge> how can i use commandline t oburn an iso to a blueray disk
