#ubuntu-doc 2005-03-14
<froud> African Greetings
<froud> enrico: I have added OMF files for FAQ and QG. Build needs to install them.
<froud> enrico: you got the updates
<enrico> hello froud!
<froud> hello
<froud> you got the message re OMF
<enrico> You mean, yesterday's changes?  Yes, I've seen them last night
<froud> no todays
<froud> check list
<enrico> I fixed the makefile to point xsltproc to DocBook 4.2.1's catalogs
<froud> :-) thannks
* enrico checks list
<enrico> oh, great!
<froud> so the build needs four omfs and registration
<froud> we can't get it into array 6, Kamion already just released it
<froud> Array 6 does install the doc packages though :-)
<froud> so users will get our updates
<enrico> oh, so we're already in the main seed and stuff
<enrico> or desktop seed
<froud> sure
<enrico> (I still haven't gotten around so know these seeds things very well)
<froud> once we have the new build it will show in Yelp
<froud> At present they dont show
<enrico> froud: is faq.omf about the FAQ Guide?
<froud> yes
<froud> rename if you need
<enrico> ok, I'll change the title then (It's the Unofficial Ubuntu Guide)
<froud> Perhaps we can work on that for Grumpy and make it official :-)
<enrico> And the creator is more like Chua Wen Kiat
<froud> yes
<enrico> And it's (argh) for Warty
<enrico> (now that I see the title on ubuntuguide.org
<enrico> )
<froud> yes, I know
<enrico> Now that the quickguide is almost finished, we could coordinate with Chua about upgrading the guide for Hoary
<froud> yes but it must be done in svn
<froud> otherwise plovs work was for nothing
<enrico> sure. It could be the moment in which we converge
<enrico> Another thing I had in mind for post-quickguide was to get access to some document in /usr/share/doc/<package>
<enrico> I'll make a wikipage for post-hoary docteam ideas
<froud> yes, it bothers me that everyone is off doing their own thing. We need a focused effort
<enrico> like a brainstorming page
<enrico> which calls for a meeting soon
<froud> like there is an Unofficial User Guide :-(
<froud> All this defocused stuff will get confusing for the user
<froud> b'side we need the help
<enrico> 2 new people subscribed to our commits mailing list today
<froud> I asked ari if he will be staying with us for grumpy develop. If he is we should create him an account.
<froud> enrico: did you manage to build it and see it in yelp
<enrico> I built.  Now I try to install it
<sivang> morning all
<froud> boker tov
<enrico> morning sivang !
<sivang> hey enrico, froud 
<sivang> froud: did you get along with making the docs appear in yelp?
<froud> :-) yep
<froud> we're cooking with gas now
<froud> sivang: enrico is just testing the packaging build
<enrico> froud: Ok, I get them inside the "Generic" category"
* froud sets reminder to file bug for mdz about scrollkeeper, db 4.3 and xml catalog problem
<froud> enrico: ok let me build an dtest it too
<froud> all your commits in
<enrico> Things show up nicely, except the image in the "Abount Ubuntu" page
<enrico> froud: there's a very new commit fixing the title in the QUickGUide OMF
<sivang> froud: yep, it's mportant :)
<sivang> enrico: Howdy!
<froud> enrico: nice, all there and working. Now it would be better if we can get the Ubuntu Docs on the default yelp page
<enrico> froud: yes... dunno how to do it, though
<froud> that make two of us
<enrico> but I can try to figure out
<froud> :-)
<froud> gimme a hint and I will help
<enrico> I'm reporting some tons of bug atm
<sivang> enrico: I think I can help here
<enrico> sivang: Please do
<sivang> enrico: (wrt your last question in -devel)
<froud> sivang: go on then what do we need to do
<sivang> enrico: is the omf file available from the source pkg?
<enrico> froud: and how about the image in the about ubuntu document?  Does it show up in your yelp?
<sivang> thom appears to hav already helped you 
<froud> no yelp is to stupid
<enrico> sivang: yes, but his help is not accessible
<sivang> enrico: oh how come? :-/
<enrico> sivang: the mail has not reached the list (possibly moderated)
<sivang> enrico: anyway , svn co url is the way to go if you just want to checkout the doc repor without having an account right? (I'm doing a couple of thins in between and can't set up my account now)
<enrico> sure: plese svn co the thing
<sivang> enrico: k, thanks.
<sivang> http//docs.ubunut.com right?
<froud> sivang: https://docteam.ubuntu.com/repos/trunk
<sivang> froud: tnx
<sivang> checking out
<sivang> enrico: where in trunk are the omf files?
<enrico> sivang: debian/
<sivang> eh found
<sivang> enrico: yes, sorry
* enrico goes for lunch
<sivang> enrico: I'm trying something at it , let's see what comes out :)
<enrico> nice snow storm here
<enrico> sivang: thanks!
<sivang> enrico: hey I envy you for being in Italy in a nice snow storm
<sivang> :)
* enrico feels too cold to be envied
<sivang> enrico: ping again
<enrico> pong
<sivang> enrico: I think I can creat a topleve catagory for our docs , still checking :)
* sivang is building a new yelp with the elleged catagories in
<sivang> bah it takes long to build
<enrico> sivang: sure it does :(
<sivang> finished :)
<sivang> installing (over my system)
<sivang> now let's check 
<sivang> got it!
<sivang> I did it :)
<enrico> it works?  WOW!  I want to see
<sivang> enrico: it's only an catagory addition, would you like to take on from here?
<sivang> enrico: I have some bugs I'm fighting with at moment besides that
<sivang> :)
<enrico> sivang: just show me what you did
<sivang> enrico: but that was satisfactory
<sivang> enrico: sure :)
<enrico> a patch (svn diff) or something
<enrico> if it's short, paste it here
<enrico> froud: do you still need a hand for those validity errors?
<sivang> enrico: how do I hand install file to scrollkeepr database?
<froud> enrico: yes
<enrico> froud: gnam gnam, let's see...
<enrico> sivang: scrollkeeper-install?
<enrico> sivang: post that patch! :)
<froud> enrico: http://scrollkeeper.sourceforge.net/documentation/writing_scrollkeeper_omf_files/ar01s08.html#skomf-registering
<enrico> sivang: that link is for oyu
<froud> you can also test it
<froud> scrollkeeper-install -i -p foo_db_dir foo.amf
<froud> omf
<sivang> enrico: eh, I see now I only managed to add a toplever catagory in yelp, but there is apparently more work to do to make it a "section" with the docs underneath it 
<froud> enrico: dunno if I will get to those valid errors in FAQ
<enrico> froud: what would the 'base' attribute do in the <chapter> element?
<enrico> sivang: would you mind telling us HOW you did it?
<sivang> enrico: ok, I don't think you would need a patch for that, here goes:
<sivang> enrico: go to /usr/share/yelp
<sivang> enrico: then edit the file toc.xml
<sivang> enrico:  <toc id="UbuntuDocs">
<sivang>     <title>Ubuntu Documentation</title>
<sivang>     </toc>
<sivang> add this
<sivang> and you get a nice toplevel catagory in yelp
<sivang> now, how do you make it corrospond to a scrollkeeper databse entry..
<enrico> oh, ok.  That's a problem for me anyway, because my .debs can't change a file belonging to another package
<sivang> enrico: a patch for this file should go into yelp source package,
<sivang> enrico: if you want it to get installed. and yelp is the package which installs it
<enrico> oh, yes, trye
<enrico> oh, yes, true
<sivang> enrico: I hope I helped a bit :-/
<enrico> I forgot that we have the freedom of patching the other packages :)
<sivang> enrico: hehehe
<froud> enrico: where do you have a @base?
<sivang> enrico: I can patch it for you if you like, I am just still trying to figure how to match between yelp toc.xml and the db catagories
<sivang> enrico: and seb would review/upload
<enrico> sivang: sounds good, let's try that.  When you got how to have an "Ubuntu" cagetory, we can just use that
<enrico> that'd be really nice!
<enrico> froud: it's when validating things: it tells me "faqs/GettingStarted.xml:9: element chapter: validity error : No declaration for attribute base of element chapter"
<enrico> I'll start fixing all of them, as soon as I can understand the error message :)
<enrico> froud: ops.  While googling I see that someone asked the same question, but got few results
<enrico> froud: and he was some "Sean Wheller" :)
<enrico> it's happened to me before to look for my problem in Google and to find... my problem, reported by me (or someone working with me) months ago already
<froud> Hmm the xml base problem.
<froud> Docbook 4.1.2 did not know what to do if xinlcude docs are not in the same dir as the including file
<froud> Obviously that was one of the reasons why I used Docbook 4.3 :-)
<enrico> uhm... thinking
<froud> so solve this we can mv all docs in faqs to ..
<froud> then change the fileref values
<enrico> that was what I was thinking
<froud> you want to do it or shall I
<enrico> I do it
<froud> ok
<froud> enrico: more of a problem is what is the sect-general that all those xrefs link to
<froud> I don't see any section called General Notes
<enrico> froud: that is?
<enrico> Oh.  You can see it in ubuntuguide.org
<enrico> it's like a disclaimer
<enrico> strange it's not in the repo
<froud> Hmm ok
<froud> found it
<froud> wierd it is in the document &general-notes;
<enrico> froud: committed: now it works
<enrico> I'll also rename faq2.xml in something else
<enrico> I'm checking Chua Wen Kiat's blog: he appeared in another 2 newspaper articles!
<sivang> enrico: any progress?
<enrico> sivang: the FAQ Guide now validates
<enrico> froud, sivang: DocteamPostHoary !
<sivang> enrico: what?
<enrico> sivang: it's a wiki page
<sivang> enrico: I can't figure out what needed to be done furhter to make the yelp catagory valid
<sivang> enrico: sorry
<enrico> sivang: no problem
<sivang> enrico: darn, this yelp --> scrollkeepr relationships stuff is pretty complex
* froud wants to kill yelp altogether. The days of help viewer apps is gone
<froud> Oh and Jeff agrees
<froud> :-)
<enrico> I don't know what to say: at the conf they liked the idea of the about page showing up in yelp...
<froud> about page and ubuntu docs should be under firefox
<froud> use mono to create a toc
<froud> much easier
<froud> people who use man, use cli
<froud> enrico: did you rename faqqqq2.xml
<froud> enrico: did you rename faq2.xml
<sivang> froud: since when did he agree with that?
<froud> since he sent mail yesterday
* froud knows sivang does not actually read the list
<enrico> froud: no, I didn't rename it
<sivang> froud: you mean to the doc list?
<froud> are you going to
<sivang> froud: I don't get how mono creates documentation tocs :)
<froud> sivang: the one and only
<enrico> froud: i thought about doing so, if that is not a problem
<sivang> froud: or how it can be used to created documentation either
<froud> enrico: let do it
<froud> sivang: huh now you lost me
<sivang> well, I can't give hand to this :) I'm a shaunm fanboy and on his mub ;-))
<sivang> too bad his not around at the moment, otherwise he would help us alot 
<froud> sivang: most of the packaging problems we are having are caus eof yelp/omf/scrollkeeper
<enrico> froud: "faqguide.xml", allright?
<sivang> we just don't know them too well :)
<froud> enrico: not particular just give it a name
<froud> but remember to update the build
<froud> I will adjust  the makefile
<enrico> froud: renamed.  Testing...
<enrico> froud: committed.  Makefile should be ok as well
<enrico> now I'm considering renaming the OMF files adding the language code
<froud> I think it is a good idea. thom is right about that
<enrico> I'm on it, then
<froud> thanx dude you're a star. I just don't have much time now to get into new things
<froud> Trying to prepare for Linux World JHB
<froud> but I had a brain fart and cant think waht to write
<enrico> froud: white page panic?
<froud> enrico: brain fart two para then stop
<froud> delete
<froud> two para
<froud> delete
<froud> two para
<froud> delete
<enrico> froud: take some playing cards, and some post-it notes
<enrico> froud: brainstorm silly ideas for contents on the post-it notes, and stick one idea to one playing card
<enrico> froud: (use the back of the card, so that the image doesn't distract you)
<enrico> froud: after you have your deck of ideas, spread it on the table
<enrico> froud: then, group them without thinking, according to your instinct
<froud> its always easy to write for everyone else but never easy to write for ones self
<enrico> froud: don't ask yourself questions and don't think while you group them (also while you brainstorm them, if you want)
<enrico> froud: after you're satisfied with grouping, turn your rational mind back on and look at what you have and what are the groups
<enrico> froud: this is called "Card sorting" and it's very useful
<froud> does that work
<enrico> froud: very well for me
<froud> must be an Italian thingy
<enrico> it allows you to "touch" your ideas, work on them freely on a large surface with two hands
<froud> never heard of it
<froud> lets try
* froud goes to get a deck of card
<enrico> froud: They do it, for example, when deciding which action goes on which menu on a user interface
<froud> and that's why the GUI is so confusing :-)
<enrico> they prepare the cards, one card per program function, then ask a sample of users to group them
<froud> I didnt know that
<enrico> that allows to have the actions sorted according to the brain model of the users and not the one of the developers
<froud> cool ide
<froud> idea
<enrico> I don't know, however, which applications have been designed like this
<froud> OK I am going back to the drawing board. Is there anything else left before I move
<enrico> I'm quite satisfied with today.  I could upload the new packages to Hoary and then look for mdz
<froud> sounds good
<enrico> I have tons of things to ask him: freeze dates, yelp or not yelp, post-hoary goals, docteam meeting, notify us when app features change...
<enrico> :w
<enrico> ops
<froud> we still need to close some of those new menu items
<froud> I posted about them to the list
<enrico> Seen it
<froud> pitty if we did not finish them
<froud> once we have done that we can do a final check and then final package
<enrico> yes
<froud> then tag
<froud> and meet
<enrico> I'll post a recap of things needing help in the list
<enrico> yes!
<froud> and decide new directions for grumpy
<sivang> are you guys planning a meeting?
* froud nods
<sivang> ah ok, I'll have to catch up a lot on -doc to see when and where.
* froud looks at kubuntu and wonders how this will impact docteam
<enrico> froud: around?
<froud> enrico: what's up
* froud just got back from 3 hours of lectures. enrico I am off for the night. send mail for the morning.
<enrico> froud: ok.  I had a chat with mdz, I'll post the results
<abelli> sivang: enrico: ChrisH 
<abelli> ping
<abelli> Kinnison: ciao r you here?
<sivang> abelli: pong
<abelli> sivang: http://socrates.homedns.org/cms/
<abelli> tell me what you think
<abelli> please
<abelli> :))
<sivang> abelli: A M A Z I N G ! ! ! !
<abelli> sivang: is it this bad?
<abelli> ahh.. right ;)
<sivang> abelli: I want this also for my local website, simple CMS?
<abelli> yes
<sivang> abelli: amazing, really.
<abelli> sivang: but let's see if ill be the italian loco leader anymore :(
<sivang> abelli: why?
<abelli> sivang: a person, complained about how, he said, i do direct the community..
<abelli> :((
<sivang> eh I se
<sivang> see
<sivang> well , what can say
<abelli> the problem is, i didnt direct anything..
<sivang> hmm
<sivang> well, then start directing :)
<abelli> because ive been working on a proper website
<abelli> to give support and blah blah blah..
<abelli> i did only one big mistake..
<abelli> :(
<abelli> because i didnt want to leave user without a website..
<abelli> we had www.ubuntuitalia.it, opened up some weeks ago, 
<abelli> and this person helped with forums
<abelli> ...now he goes here and there, saying hes ubuntuitalia..
<abelli> when i asked him to respect the code of conduct, he just complained with smurfix..
<abelli> im so sad
<abelli> ..let make things clear..
<abelli> the other 99% of the ppl that worked in ubuntuitalia is with me..
<abelli> but im still sad
<sivang> well, talk to smurfix and you would be alright
<sivang> :)
<abelli> sivang: he has no time for me today, hes going in london to tomorrow
<sivang> abelli: eh, good for him :)
<sivang> abelli: what's going on in london?
<abelli> hmm dunno
#ubuntu-doc 2005-03-15
<froud> African greetings
<Burgundavia> salut
<Burgundavia> I have been out of the loop for too long. What is release critical?
<froud> Burgundavia: we have a few nodes with status help in the Quick guide
<Burgundavia> where on the wiki would I find that?
<froud> Burgundavia: not on wiki, in SVN
<Burgundavia> and did you migrate users/pwds from the john's svn to the offical one?
<froud> no, enrico posted for people to send user and passwords pgp key etc
<Burgundavia> ah, ok, I missed that post
<Burgundavia> nev mind
<froud> you can do checkout from https://docteam.ubuntu.com/repos/trunk
<Burgundavia> ok
<froud> Ask enrico to create your account, then do svn switch
<froud> for now just do plain checkout and post patches
<Burgundavia> ok, I found the old email
<Burgundavia> It was not tagged reference for some reason
<Burgundavia> you are Sean Wheller, no?
<froud> Yes
<froud> why
<Burgundavia> just confirming
<Burgundavia> I have a question about this: during installation, Ubuntu creates a special user account called 'sudo'.
<Burgundavia> This is strictly speaking not correct
<froud> Burgundavia: OK what is correct then
<froud> remember the audience here
<froud> If you want to explain it better, you can
<Burgundavia> Better, IMHO, to do an end run around the issue. Simply state that when you need to upgrade the system you need to enter your password for security
<froud> sure that's a good idea
<Burgundavia> however, how to do I create a patch to send to you?
<froud> svn diff > foo.diff
<froud> svn diff quickguide.xml > foo.diff
<Burgundavia> sounds good
<Burgundavia> another note, <xref linkend="qg-ubuntu-update-manager" endterm="title-qg-ubuntu-update-manager"/>, or any link like it breaks
<froud> Burgundavia: yelp does not handle the endterm
<froud> gnome docs is notified
<Burgundavia> ah
<Burgundavia> what is quick fix, as hoary is almost upon us?
<froud> for details on how t patch see http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/DocteamStepByStepRepository
<froud> Burgundavia: no quick fix
<Burgundavia> uck
<froud> must patch yelp
<Burgundavia> the other thing I was playing with in Mataro was SVG with PNG screenshot
<froud> yelp does not support properly
<Burgundavia> however, GIMP screenshots embedded in SVG in DocBook break horribly
<froud> yep
<Burgundavia> b/w and normal colour work find, just not screen shots
<froud> we use imagemagick
<froud> see http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/TakingScreenshots
<Burgundavia> I have an unconfirmed bug in Gnome bugzilla, if you want to confirm it, we might be able to get some action on it
<froud> uri to bug please
<Burgundavia> getting it
<Burgundavia> http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=161374
<Burgundavia> I haven't had internet access until 2 days ago
<Burgundavia> That is why I haven't worked on anything
<froud> For Grumpy I am suggesting that we won't use Yelp for Ubuntu Docs, but just a plain web browser
<Burgundavia> hmm
<froud> We need cross desktop compatability
<Burgundavia> Yelp has the advantage of not needing the webrowser
<froud> yelp is gnome stuff
<Burgundavia> yes, I realize that
<froud> we will still install yelp for gnome
<Burgundavia> This may sound stupid, not being a KDE user, but doesn't KDE have something similar?
<froud> but I would like ubuntu docs to be viewed from browser
<froud> kdehelpcenter
<froud> works on plain html
<froud> ie static doc
<froud> yelp is dynamic
<Burgundavia> Then I think we need to look beyond just static documents
<froud> not exactly
<froud> what about users on other desktops
<Burgundavia> Ok, several points
<Burgundavia> 1. yelp looks like windows help
<froud> the fact that yelp runs xml through xsl is not of any use to the user
<Burgundavia> 2. we are primarily a gnome based distro
<froud> for now
<Burgundavia> 3. Dynamic looks and responds a lot faster than static
<froud> not true
<froud> Burgundavia: the days of help viewing apps is long dead
<froud> 1]  we can make it look just like windows help under browser
<froud> but I am not inclined to want to ape the windows help system
<Burgundavia> yes, but the 2 pane does work quite well
<froud> you can have the same under browser
<froud> I plan to develop using XUL
<froud> the ubuntu toolbar
<froud> and ubuntu navigator
<froud> the navigator is the tree view you want'
<Burgundavia> ok, so instead of one DE we are going to lock ourselves to one browser
<Burgundavia> hmm, really dn'
<Burgundavia> don
<Burgundavia> like that
<froud> If I run kubuntu, why should I be forced to install yelp to view ubuntu docs
<froud> Bug
<froud> Burgundavia: no users can still access the help
<froud> perhaps you can suggest a better way
<froud> I was thinking HTML help
<Burgundavia> I agree that it is messy any way we go
<froud> it gives the tree view you want
<froud> mes yess
<froud> rather deal with the mess and remain cross desktop
<Burgundavia> Here is another point Yelp - start is ~1s
<Burgundavia> Firefox ~4s
<froud> yes, but you are splitting hair on a startup
<froud> once a browser is loaded
<froud> the plain html is faster to load
<froud> Burgundavia: I must take my daughters to school. be back in 5 min
<Burgundavia> ok
* froud leaves for a few minutes
<Burgundavia> Ok, some thoughts
<Burgundavia> Yelp uses gecko, just a different wrapper
<Burgundavia> Jeff Waugh mentioned that we might be able to use bounty money if we have need, such as that SVG issue
<Burgundavia> There are some accessablity issues with Yelp currently, that are caused by gecko. Does firefox solve this?
<froud> back
<Burgundavia> see my 3 points
<Burgundavia> I have one further, regarding the getting started section of the quickguide
<froud> Burgundavia: yes firefox solves this
<Burgundavia> can I collapse it back into one section?
<Burgundavia> how and can we utilise it?
<froud> if you want to collapse it
<Burgundavia> yes?
<froud> explaining how is a long story
<froud> Burgundavia: you have mentioned on yelp issue
<froud> issues
<froud> here is a list of features yelp does not support because it only partially impliments docbook and the nwalsh xsl
<froud> no support for 
<froud> glossary
<froud> index
<froud> external link (oolink)
<froud> xlink
<froud> profiling
<froud> no ability to control the xsl
<froud> through custom layers
<froud> no ability to use CSS
<froud> that is just some of the stuff
<froud> take for example the quick guide
<froud> today we speak about gnome
<froud> tomorrow we may add kde to the same document
<froud> how to profile the output to derive two docs from the same source
<froud> answer: we cant with yelp
<froud> next
<froud> external cross-reference between docucuments
<froud> in yelp you must use ghelp value
<froud> this does not work in any other system
<froud> so we must create a xref for ghelp and a plain olink for everything else
<froud> what I am saying is that yelp limits the features and locks us to gnome
<froud> ubuntu docs are not about gnome
<froud> they are about ubuntu
<froud> the admin guide is on my list
<froud> it has zero to do with gnome
<froud> the release notes and about ubuntu too
<froud> shaunm acknowledges all these problems
<Burgundavia> and how much work to get it implemented?
<froud> to get what implimented
<Burgundavia> the various things you just mentioned?
<froud> we do it inline to writing
<froud> the problem is to reduce our overhead
<Burgundavia> what do you mean?
<froud> we can't maintain a kde and gnome and other desktop book for each book
<froud> we can't cater for the specific stuff of gnome yelp
<froud> and then also kdehelpcenter
<Burgundavia> Lets also talk practical. We have NO kde docs right now
<froud> exactly
<froud> but we will in the future
<froud> because ubuntu started with gnome
<froud> does not mean it is a gnome distro
<froud> mako is already porting user linux
<froud> that adds new things
<froud> kubuntu is alive
<Burgundavia> by user linux, you mean the Bruce Perens' effort?
<froud> but uses only upstream
<froud> yes
<froud> seems the project is dead
<Burgundavia> what exactly is being ported?
<froud> ask mako
<Burgundavia> ok
<froud> using native docbook enables far more possabilities
<Burgundavia> Ok, we have implemented the entire quickguide using things that are broken in yelp, how to we move forward to someting that looks good
<froud> we have the html version
<Burgundavia> so what are we going to ship?
<froud> both
<Burgundavia> Are they going to be installed by default?
<Burgundavia> We are generated our html off the docbook?
<froud> yes
<Burgundavia> to both?
<froud> the packages are done
<froud> both
<froud> the xml is our source
<Burgundavia> if we are moving forward with straight html, why don't we just switch to that?
<froud> the html will hopefully be our format for viewing
<Burgundavia> easier to edit, with less barriers to new people
<froud> religious questions
<Burgundavia> ok
<froud> using docccook is goo
<froud> good
<froud> we can later do PDF
<Burgundavia> ture
<Burgundavia> rue
<Burgundavia> true
<Burgundavia> 3rd time right
<froud> and can do xhtml html html help
<Burgundavia> and if evince goes in the right direction, we can ship pdf
<froud> we remain neutral
<froud> yes
<froud> what is evince
<froud> ?:-)
<Burgundavia> http://www.gnome.org/projects/evince/
<froud> oh
<Burgundavia> a brand new doc viewer
<Burgundavia> they have also just forked xpdf
<froud> didnnt know about it
<froud> thanks
<Burgundavia> a new freedesktop project called poppler is creating a commond pdf library for gnome/kde
<froud> cool
<froud> what about acroread
<Burgundavia> I think this is the way forward
<Burgundavia> acroread is a pile of adobe crap
<froud> hmmm I have this on kde
<froud> on my suse 9.2
<Burgundavia> and it is gtk1 or tk
<froud> tk
<froud> or qt
<Burgundavia> ugly would be the word
<Burgundavia> no, I think tk
<Burgundavia> might also be wxwidgets
<froud> ok
<froud> point is pdf std is open so I dont care what viewer people use
<Burgundavia> In any case envince and this new backend might solve our issues quite nicely in the nearish future
<froud> cool I will look atit
<Burgundavia> however, for hoary, given the state of the quickguide I got today, I say we don't ship it
<froud> if people can fix the problem with endterm then I dont see why
<Burgundavia> is that is the ballpark for 2.10?
<froud> what problems are you specific about
<froud> 2.10 is grumpy
<Burgundavia> the linkend, which makes the document look absolutely horrible
<froud> its the endterm problem
<Burgundavia> ok
<froud> fact that yelp is messed should not stop shipping
<froud> we have the html
<Burgundavia> by 2.10, I mean the 2.10 gnome release
<froud> oh
<Burgundavia> Ok, then lets ship the html and not the docbook until the yelp issue is fixed
<froud> we must speak to enrico
<froud> he will read the irc log
<Burgundavia> HEY ENRICO, READ MY LAST LINE
<Burgundavia> there, now he will
<froud> or get somebody to fix yelp
<froud> fast
<Burgundavia> 2.10 is already in hard code freeze
<froud> we hope they fixed it then
<froud> I gave up talking to deaf ears
<froud> both at gnome and ubuntu devel
<froud> long ago I advised to stay clear of yelp
<Burgundavia> Ok, lets put together a document outlining our specific needs and get it to mdz/jeff
<froud> but it's a religious question
<Burgundavia> we might get 2.10.1 or 2.20.2
<Burgundavia> our release comes after 2.10.1 I believe
<froud> I am just writing an email outlining this
<froud> it will be posted to ubuntu-doc and cc mdz
<Burgundavia> ok
<froud> started it when you came on :-)
<Burgundavia> Another thing, is there a plan to make the wiki useful?
<Burgundavia> I edit WP almost every day and I love the features that it offers
<Burgundavia> zwiki sucks donkey balls in comparison
<Burgundavia> wikis also allow very low barriers of entry to new people
<froud> they do, but putting your docs in wiki is a sure fire way to messup the docs
<Burgundavia> why do you say that?
<froud> I dont like wiki for this stuff
<froud> ask any FOSS doc manager and they will agree
<froud> wiki is a bad idea
<froud> right now what bothers me is that there is so much effort being dispersed
<Burgundavia> you can set to disallow anon's, which would get rid of most things that are bad for wikis
<froud> everyone is off on their own thing
* froud stays clear of wiki and is focused on svn
<froud> which we would like to be baz
<froud> but team wont move
<froud> :-(
<froud> wiki is not designed for this type of stuff
<Burgundavia> so post hoary here are things I would like to see-
<Burgundavia> 1st point of entry - wiki
<Burgundavia> HTML docs, doing the things that are nice about Yelp
<Burgundavia> Move to baz
<Burgundavia> Wiki *is* designed for documentation writing. Look at Wikipedia for an example
<Burgundavia> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Main_Page
<Burgundavia> tell me that we cannot adapt to have something like that for our main page
<froud> Burgundavia: is that is so then how do you plan to get wiki into the distro in pdf
<froud> please add your thoughts to https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/DocteamPostHoary#bottom
<froud> Burgundavia: have you read the docteam web site
<froud> we have several method people can use to write docs
<froud> even methods to port from wiki to docbook
<froud> nobody uses them
<froud> we don't have the human resources for this
<froud> every effort is being duplicated instead of focused
<froud> we now have an unofficail user guide
<froud> WTF
<Burgundavia> I am saying that we drop docbook
<froud> if that effort had been in svn we would have had a better one
<froud> Burgundavia: then I drop the project
<Burgundavia> Docbook sets the barrier too high, IMHO
<froud> wiki is a mess
<Burgundavia> wiki is a mess not because it is a wiki, but becuase the markup language sucks
<froud> and you wantto move to something that sucks
<froud> locked in 
<Burgundavia> what do you mean?
<froud> no easy port to different formats
<froud> wiki sucks
<froud> how do you plan to create html and xhtml and pdf and hml help from wiki
<Burgundavia> no, wiki allows really fast editing, precisely what good documentation needs
<froud> how do you plan to keep formatting consistant
<froud> so does docbook
<Burgundavia> html is easy, the wiki engine is already doing it, just take that output
<froud> controlled in svn
<froud> so why do most FOSS doc projects use docbook
<Burgundavia> I think we have a fundamental misunderstanding here
<froud> yes
<froud> ubuntu docs and wiki are two different things
<Burgundavia> WP is very very successful because they have set the bar for entry very low, but still produce quality docs
<froud> who is WP
<Burgundavia> Wikipedia
<froud> oh crap
<Burgundavia> ah, another person who thinks WP is crap
<froud> look postyour thoughts to the list
<Burgundavia> ok, I will compose something right now
<froud> but if the project drop docbook I drop the project . period
<Burgundavia> Who else uses docbook?
<froud> TLDP KDE GNOME
<froud> and many other projects
<Burgundavia> and one of the most common things I have heard about computer documentation is that is sucks
<Burgundavia> doesn't matter what project/os/etc.
<froud> because you have developers writing it
<froud> the format has nothing to do with the authors
<Burgundavia> and the barrier to entry is set beyond the reach of most people
<froud> most people dont write doc
<froud> very few writers actually contribute
<froud> so net admins and developers do it
<froud> beeep wrong
<Burgundavia> but the writers don't contribute, IMHO, because they can't just write, they have to deal with xml, etc.
<froud> oss doc projects, with the exception of GNOME, dont have a doc manager
<froud> Umm XXE is near to WYSIWYG as you can take it
<Burgundavia> docbook != WYSIWYG
<froud> have you seen XXE
<Burgundavia> XMLmind XML Editor?
<froud> there are numbe rof other structured editors
<froud> Conglomerate is one
<froud> Morphon another
<Burgundavia> congolmerate is a mess, I have tried to use it
<froud> yes it is a mess agreed
<froud> they tried to be too much
<froud> you donthav eto use vim or emacs
<froud> XXE is also good
<froud> the benefits of xml far out weigh not using it
<froud> are you on our commit list
<Burgundavia> not currently
<froud> you should be
<froud> because we use xml and svn we get updates of all patches submitted
<froud> only the diff,
<froud> makes knowing what changed nice and easy
<Burgundavia> yes
<froud> our src is revision controlled
<froud> we can tag and branch
<froud> we can do vendor drop
<Burgundavia> I am somewhat familiar with these things
<froud> well in the future
<froud> dont get me wrong we dont discourage wiki. If people want to write something ten let them do it
<froud> see https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/DocteamWork
<froud> https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/ConvertWikiToDocbook
<froud> https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/ConvertTroffToDocbook
<froud> https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/WritingDocbookWithOpenOffice
<froud> to date nobody has used any of these methods
<Burgundavia> yes, because the ubuntu wiki has some very strange features, like page parenting
<froud> so what about OOo
<Burgundavia> never tried it myself
<froud> I can convert from docbook to wiki 100%
<Burgundavia> but OOo is not exactly the easiest to use either
<froud> I cant do it 100% in the opposite direction
<froud> Oh come on
<froud> you say wiki is easier that OOo writer
<froud> no ways ddude
<Burgundavia> I have seen somebody work 3 hours to cleanup a document with a mix of manual and auto syling
<Burgundavia> s/syling/styling
<froud> yes, but the method we document solves that
<froud> atleast with docbook styling is not an issue
<froud> the doc is valid or it is not
<froud> formatting is the job of the xsl
<froud> The other day I took a gedit user who had no idea about svn and docbook and helped her to start writing.
<froud> The result
<froud> was a number of nice patches within a day
<froud> enrico took the IRC conversation and made a cool doc out of it
<froud> https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/DocteamStepByStepRepository
<froud> if this person can do it then anyone can do it
<froud> and that using gedit
<Burgundavia> My question is, how long did you have to walk her through it?
<froud> 30 mins
<froud> jeffsch: helo dude
<jeffsch> froud: hey man
<froud> you just started with the project
<froud> had you used docbok and svn before
<froud> you have given us some great patches
<Burgundavia> I had started in Mataro, but I haven't had internet for the past 2 months
<jeffsch> I fooled around with xml a couple years ago
<jeffsch> and cvs a little
<froud> how hard did you find it to get started with the project
<jeffsch> I knew the concepts, so not much to do to learn
<froud> ok
<jeffsch> the hardest part was finding the info on the wiki
<jeffsch> it is spread all over the place
<Burgundavia> froud and I were discussing furture directions
* froud smiles
<Burgundavia> wikis need not be hard to edit and disorganized\
* froud agrees with jeffsch 
<jeffsch> I saw - i read the log first...
<froud> and what is your thinking on help viewer tools
* froud thinks they are dead
* Burgundavia likes the low startup time for yelp
<jeffsch> perhpas they *shold* be dead, but people still use them
<froud> so in time they will be dead
* jeffsch doesn't like less than perfect docbook support in yelp
* froud agrees with jeffsch 
<froud> would you drop docbook in favour of wiki only
<jeffsch> if we can get a handle on the wiki
<Burgundavia> with the added caveat that we do some serious work on the wiki, code wise
<jeffsch> it's a mess, but doesn't need to be
<froud> jeffsch: and how would you get HML/XHMTL PDF and HTM Help
<jeffsch> on the other hand, I like how docbook is single source
<Burgundavia> I heard in Mataro the main reason we didn't go with mediawiki is that it is PHP, and Shuttleworh doesn't like it
<Burgundavia> PHP that is
<froud> who cares what Shuttleworth wants. this is a community project it is what thee community wants
<Burgundavia> I believe we use zwiki, which is python based
<Burgundavia> and ties into zope and plone
<jeffsch> plone, right?
<jeffsch> zoiks! i typing too slow... :(
<Burgundavia> I like the consistent interface
<froud> wiki and docbook are for different applications
<Burgundavia> I just want watchlists
<Burgundavia> and a proper history form
<Burgundavia> move away from Camelcase
<Burgundavia> get rid of page parenting
<Burgundavia> categories
<jeffsch> froud: I see how you are correct re: wiki and docbook for different applications
<Burgundavia> but is there any technical reason why they need to be?
<froud> single source
<jeffsch> perhaps there is a social reason...
<jeffsch> wiki seems more "free-for-all"
<Burgundavia> Ok then, I challenge this:
<Burgundavia> Stick with me for it all
<Burgundavia> Wiki becomes primary source
<Burgundavia> We drive pdf and docbook off it
<Burgundavia> wiki = html
<Burgundavia> what we would need would be watchlists (commit list) both web and email
<Burgundavia> and maybe even rss
<Burgundavia> and all the things I just mentioned about what is missing from our wiki above
<Burgundavia> Wiki allows very low bar of entry
<Burgundavia> But we can still control by disallowing anon access
<Burgundavia> What do people think?
<froud> how do you prose to drive docbook off wiki
<Burgundavia> wiki --> html --> docbook
<froud> no way
<froud> and how to expect to get valid docbook
<Burgundavia> then skip docbook
<Burgundavia> html --> pdf
<Burgundavia> use evince and all the stuff I talked about earilier
<Burgundavia> s/earilier/earlier
<Burgundavia> With wiki as primary source, we don't need docbook for anything. PDF covers print, etc.
<froud> The Quick Guide, FAQ Guide, Admin Guide, Release Notes, About Ubuntu and User Guide will remain in docbook
<froud> if they move to wiki, I move projects
<Burgundavia> At our current point, we cannot do what I suggest
<froud> what people want to do in wiki is up to them. I focus on the docs in SVN
<Burgundavia> froud: But this is a community effort, as you said, and the team can move as the team decides
<froud> I would rather have a core team of people who write docs in svn and docbook than have a mess in wiki
<Burgundavia> But you wouldn't have a mess in the wiki, with the technical things I just mentioned added and fixed
<Burgundavia> there is a reason most new wikis are mediawiki (the wiki engine that drives WP) and not zwiki
<froud> you really believe that
<Burgundavia> yes I do
<Burgundavia> WP is not a mess
<froud> Burgundavia: how long have yu been in the documentation business
<Burgundavia> long enough to know that what we are doing now isn't really working
<froud> then you should know that xml is the way to go
<froud> not wiki
<froud> if you can get wiki to edit xml I would be with you
<Burgundavia> Why do you need xml?
<froud> single source, valid docs
<froud> the list goes on
<Burgundavia> valid docs?
<froud> you really dont have much undersatnding about xml
<Burgundavia> yes, I understand xml/html validation
<froud> so why do you ask
<Burgundavia> if we eliminate xml, then we don't need to worry about validating xml
<froud> and how do you prose to make markup consistant in wiki
* jeffsch steps out for 10 minutes
<Burgundavia> by choosing one style
<Burgundavia> and then applying it
<Burgundavia> the ubuntu wiki is the only wiki I have seen that allows people to choose their markup style
<Burgundavia> rest/plain text/etc.
<Burgundavia> Have you editing Wikipedia?
<froud> and do you know how many people come to this list asking how to markup wiki
<Burgundavia> yes, because we offer them several confusing choices in the wiki
<Burgundavia> I would burn that away to one
<froud> look WP is great, but it is a different thing when you are writing a user guide
<Burgundavia> I am saying that it is not
<froud> then ther eis the issue of using upstream content
<froud> how can I resuse docbook xml content from upstream
<Burgundavia> how much do we currently reuse?
<froud> at present non, but that is because of a technical issue
<Burgundavia> what issue>
<froud> we want svn 1.1 or higher to do vendor drops and use symlinks
<Burgundavia> ok, that one
<Burgundavia> what exactly is a vendor drop?
<froud> take a snap of gnome and have it in our reposs
<froud> resuse content
<froud> reuse
<froud> if we make changes in the drop we push itupstream
<Burgundavia> ok, have never heard the term but understand the idea
<froud> for example if it would have been good to use content from gnome docs in quick guide
<froud> Burgundavia: the point is that wiki locks us in to a what we can do. With docbook for the Ubuntu Documentation we are not
<froud> we can programatically access our docs in wiki we cant
<froud> today our status reports are autogenerates
<Burgundavia> say again?
<froud> http://people.ubuntu.com/~mako/docteam/status/qg-report.html
<froud> that doc is generated
<Burgundavia> And is there a technical reason that couldn't be generated from a wiki page?
<froud> you have a way of marking status in wiki inside the document src
<froud> in plone it can be done
<froud> in fact in plone you have a full review cycle
<froud> but plone is heavy
<Burgundavia> then I state that the last statement was a red herring
<Burgundavia> and docbook/yelp is not heavy?
<froud> docbook and yelp are two sperate things
<froud> docbook is a semantic markup
<froud> yelp just reads that markup 
<froud> plone is heavy on resources and server side
<Burgundavia> I was talking about the packaging in docbook and reading in yelp, the whole process
<froud> we run a make file
<froud> all books are generated from source
<froud> in what every format you want it
<froud> you want a man page I give it to you
<froud> you want a pdf I give that too
<Burgundavia> again, is there a technical reason that couldn't be done from a wiki?
<froud> you gonna devel it
<froud> in docbook I alreadyhave it
<froud> I just transform to what you want
<froud> also for the translators
<froud> docbook and po files works well
<Burgundavia> I see at least 2 different programs for doing html to pdf
<froud> gnome and kde both have tools for this
<froud> no one source
<froud> two xsl
<froud> xml > xsl > html
<froud> xml > xsl > xsl:fo > pdf or rtf or ps
<froud> xml > xsl > htmlhelp
<froud> xml > xsl > wiki
<froud> xml > xsl > man
<froud> xml > xsl > info
<froud> xml > xsl > xhtml
<froud> one src
<froud> the xsl's are different
<Burgundavia> Yes, that is great, but are you producing good documentation?
<froud> so does gnome and kde
<froud> with more team members we can
<froud> the idea of good or bad docs has 0 to do with the technology
<Burgundavia> But I am saying that more team members will not be added due to the mental cost of learning docbook, which most people have NO interest in doing
<froud> the docbook community is large
<froud> it is also an OASIS stsd
<froud> std
<Burgundavia> the user community is much much larger
<froud> sure
<froud> and hence we give ways for them to write
<froud> but that does not mean ubuntu docs should be in wiki
<Burgundavia> But there is a cost for filtering through the docteam, and that cost is time
<froud> and how to package wiki in distro
<Burgundavia> you package wiki in distro by exporting from the wiki into other formats
<froud> really how many and how much must we develop to do  that
<Burgundavia> what is time cost of that development vs doing the documentation with much fewer people?
<froud> there is stuff that must be in wiki and stuff that must be in docbook
<Burgundavia> but that violates the principle of single source, which we both happen to like
<froud> the problem is that everyone is doing what they want and most people are not writing docs
<Burgundavia> The wiki would also allow for quick entering of the howtos from the user forums
<froud> we have methods to enable everyone to write
<froud> sure
<froud> that we do today
<Burgundavia> But they need filters (people) which we don't have
<froud> but a howto does not go into the docs
<Burgundavia> yes it does
<froud> not at present
<Burgundavia> but it needs to, IMHO
<Burgundavia> most people think in a task oriented way
<Burgundavia> ie, I want to write a letter
<froud> sure and howto's e.g those from TLDP are in Docbook
<Burgundavia> not I want to use gedit
<Burgundavia> TLDP - to hard to find, and to hard to search
<Burgundavia> s/to/too
<froud> the howto docs are mostly in docbook format
<froud> not only those from tldp
<froud> and lets sperate betwen presentation and a data layers
<Burgundavia> so does css
<froud> we still have css with docbook
<froud> in fact the releas enotes use the wiki css
<froud> slight modification
<Burgundavia> My main thrust is that we should (might want to) rethink the entire documentation process
<Burgundavia> We should focus on very task oriented docs
<froud> rethinking is always good
<Burgundavia> ie. "I want to send an email to aunt betty"
<froud> The user guide and admin guide should be task orientated
<froud> see FAQ Quide
<froud> but task orientation is not always the best thing
<Burgundavia> I brought this up earlier. Quick means fast. Fast means task oriented
<froud> especially when you want to explain issues
<Burgundavia> why do you say that?
<Burgundavia> can you tell me an example?
<froud> explain DHCP in task
<froud> or DNS
<Burgundavia> I can
<froud> yeah
<froud> do 1 2 3
<Burgundavia> I want to have my machines get an address
<froud> and the person has no clue what it is that way
<Burgundavia> what do you mean?
<froud> DNS needs install and config
<froud> the person must know tcp/ip
<Burgundavia> Ok, but the task oriented and the program oriented doc can point to the same place
<froud> you see you have two levels task and not task
<froud> task is good fo rsome audiences
<froud> try reading the how to docs
<Burgundavia> For a quick rundown on me go here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Burgundavia
<Burgundavia> task is good for most basic computer users
<Burgundavia> ie: Ubuntu's target audience
<froud> there are multiple audience
<froud> users is one
<Burgundavia> yes, but for the desktop target audience, it is users
<froud> they need task
<froud> yes
<Burgundavia> there are far more users than sysadmins
<froud> sure
<Burgundavia> There are also very good linux sysadmin guides out there
<froud> does that mean a Admin Guide must be task
<froud> yes
<Burgundavia> there aren't very many good task oriented docs out there
<froud> no
<Burgundavia> the precise kind that do well in wiki's, as they can change rapidly
<froud> why are you frowning on that page
<Burgundavia> I was making a face for the camera
<froud> :-)
<froud> and you gave grown big dark patches around the ears :)
<Burgundavia>  I am in a small plane
<froud> Ah ha
<froud> I agree that user docs should be task orientated, but we have not yet gotten to the user guide
<Burgundavia> People are already writing the task based stuff in the forums, and they are crap
<froud> the quick guide is like a tour of the desktop
<Burgundavia> we can do much better
<froud> yes writing task needs special skills
<Burgundavia> however, there will always be another one that we need to write quickly
<froud> most oss writers donthav ethem
<froud> task needs planning
<Burgundavia> docbook/svn doesn't really allow it to be done easily and released quickly
<froud> yes it does
<Burgundavia> to the stable release?
<froud> we even have an element task
<Burgundavia> element task?
<froud> <task>
<froud> </task>
<froud> I write task orientated docs often
<Burgundavia> oh
<froud> hold with me on this
<froud> I write a doc
<froud> It supports both structures
<Burgundavia> But what I want is to take all those Howtos and rewrite them in the wiki and then tell the forum about it
<froud> I transform to target formats form one doc
<Burgundavia> I want them to be webbased, so I can revise them
<froud> you can revise them in docbook
<Burgundavia> Currently users are getting advice like install xmms, which is a pile of crap
<froud> well that is because noone can check the wiki
<froud> its too big
<Burgundavia> No, it is not too big, merely the tools we have to edit it suck
<froud> our docs are focused
<Burgundavia> No categories, watchlists, etc.
<froud> I cant change that
<Burgundavia> nor can I really
<froud> I can only do what I do in the src
<froud> in svn we have a controlled env
<froud> it may not be open to all
<froud> but it works
<Burgundavia> in a wiki you have one too
<Burgundavia> that is what history is for
<Burgundavia> a real history, not this crap the Ubuntu wiki has
<froud> well you will have to get lots of people to support you
<Burgundavia> http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Detroit_Metropolitan_Wayne_County_Airport&action=history
<Burgundavia> this kind of history
<froud> yes now revert 
<froud> merge
<froud> switch
<froud> at endour dev we will tag
<Burgundavia> "at endour dev we will tag" ????
<froud> the hoary docs stay like they are forever
<froud> we tag at code freeze
<froud> the trunk is moved into tag
<froud> you cant edit it
<froud> we can build from it
<froud> we continue to dev in trunk
<Burgundavia> export a copy out and do the same thing
<froud> in addition, if I want to make intrusive changes I can branch
<froud> make changes and merge back to trunk
<froud> why do I want to do that I do that only at build
<froud> we all collab on the svn
<froud> the same way the coders do
<Burgundavia> Documentation != code and never should
<froud> in svn the build can always be accesses
<Burgundavia> that is why most foss documentation sucks
<Burgundavia> the same way the coders do - this is exactly the statement that I cringe at
<froud> no, it sucks because the people writing are not technical writers
<froud> I run customer projects in docbook
<froud> I have over 2 tera of documents
<froud> and it works in perfect order
<Burgundavia> do you write the stuff by yourself?
<froud> with teams that are geographically everywhere
<froud> no
<froud> some by me
<froud> some by other technical writers
<Burgundavia> are you trying to lower bar to allow more people to write?
<froud> the devs also write in the same way
<froud> as do the testers
<froud> and project management
<froud> most stuff is dynamically transformed under tomcat
<froud> some stuff is on a cron job
<froud> releases are specific and yet we preserve the old release docs
<Burgundavia> Here is something common I have/can see happen: What can I do. Write docs. How to do I do that? Learn svn and docbook (or something else). No thanks
<froud> so you will see docs for each version over time
<jeffsch> you don't have to learn all of docbook to contribute
<Burgundavia> Why are we so concerned about freezing the docs aside for translators?
<froud> Docbook and svn are not that hard
<Burgundavia> harder than a wiki
<froud> no
<Burgundavia> yes
<froud> Burgundavia: you you run a gnome desk
<Burgundavia> "you you run a gnome desk" ???
<froud> do you
<froud> my bad
<Burgundavia> do I use Ubuntu at home?
<Burgundavia> yes, exclusively
<froud> ok
<Burgundavia> I just left my job, which was with windows
<froud> so install eSvn
<froud> once you have svn installed eSvn will give you a gui
<froud> frontend to svn
<froud> that will take care of learning svn 
<froud> now you take XXE and you write
<Burgundavia> not really
<froud> that's it
<Burgundavia> you still have to learn the concepts
<Burgundavia> that is difficult thing for most people
<froud> eSvn is so simple
<froud> not really
<froud> they use only a few functions
<froud> update
<Burgundavia> menu items with 11 items are not simple
<froud> mostly
<froud> push the updat ebutton on theeeee toolbar
<froud> I must step out for a minute
* froud will be back 
<jeffsch> Burgundavia: you are in Victoria? I'm in vancouver
<Burgundavia> yep
<Burgundavia> crazy
<Burgundavia> the debian release people are meeting in Vancouver this weekend
<Burgundavia> http://lists.debian.org/debian-project/2005/03/msg00015.html
<jeffsch> i didn't know that
<Burgundavia> ya, but they don't say where
<Burgundavia> You have been following our discussion jeff?
<Kinnison> Morning
<Burgundavia> hey
<jeffsch> Burgundavia: yes
<jeffsch> want my two cents?
<Burgundavia> Kinnison: read the logs for this channel and tell me if I am completely off my rocker
<Burgundavia> yes
<Burgundavia> jeffsch: yes
<jeffsch> wikipedia is wiki, and ubuntu wiki is a wiki, but you can't compare wikipedia to ubuntu wiki
<Kinnison> Burgundavia: I'm about to upgrade my router; can I do that when I get back?
<jeffsch> ikipedia has different purpose than ubuntu wiki
<Burgundavia> Kinnison: whenever
* Kinnison waves
<jeffsch> ubuntu wiki page needs to change everytime software it covers changes
<jeffsch> wikipedia page tends to be static after first few changes
<jeffsch> I love wikipedia - if i want to know about einstein, there's the info
<jeffsch> i can get lost in WP for hours
<jeffsch> but for info on how to use a program, i want it fast
<jeffsch> I don't have time to wander around. my network may be down.
<jeffsch> the info needs to be organized, it needs to be structured.
<jeffsch> xml, semantic markup. Docbook
<Burgundavia> is there any technical reason that a wiki could not also do those things?
<jeffsch> in theory, probably not.
<Burgundavia> The major technical challenge I see that I cannot easily solve is tranlating, and keeping that in sync
<jeffsch> but there are other reasons. not just technical ones
<jeffsch> people are people, if you know what i mean
<Burgundavia> froud was already talking about XUL and browser based stuff anyway
<Burgundavia> I totally understand the non-technical stuff. I have lurked on the list for the last few months
<Burgundavia> There are also some serious technical challenges that froud presented
<jeffsch> i can see how someone might be afraid of changing wiki - it's very public
<Burgundavia> WP is also getting more organized. The issue with Mediawiki is that they must deal with all the scaling issues that WP is having
<jeffsch> shy people may find it  a greater barrier than xml on svn
<Burgundavia> hmm
<Burgundavia> I have never heard of that, but it may happen
<jeffsch> i don't think WP is a good model for ubuntu wiki - they both use same technology (essentially)
<jeffsch> but they each serve different purposes
<Burgundavia> they both use the same concepts, very different underpinnings
<Burgundavia> WP has pushed the wiki concept in a lot of very interesting directions
<Burgundavia> encyclopedia and docs in general have to solve the same set of issues
<Burgundavia> it is primarily cateogorizing info so that people can get to it quickly and easily
<jeffsch> they are used at different times by different people for different reasons
<Burgundavia> the wiki concept allows quick changing of that
<Burgundavia> the era of static docs is dead
<Burgundavia> they need to die like the help viewer
<Kinnison> Morning again all
<Burgundavia> long time, no chat
* Kinnison nods
<Burgundavia> how is my favourite gay Englishman?
<Kinnison> Gosh; such honour
* Kinnison is good thanks
<Burgundavia> well, I am still available to be the cameraman
* Kinnison laughs
<Kinnison> How's your girl?
<Kinnison> (I can't remember her name because I'm crap)
<Burgundavia> We broke up 2 days after I got back, but I only moved out 2 days ago
<Burgundavia> We are still good friends
* Kinnison hugs
* Burgundavia hugs back
<Burgundavia> Kinnison: can you tell me why cupsys-driver-gimpprint is broken? Is this an issue larger than just me?
* Kinnison doesn't know
<Burgundavia> hmm
<Kinnison> I'm not on the distro team remember :-)
<Burgundavia> ya ya
* Kinnison recommends you check bugzilla; blahblahblah
<Burgundavia> how was capetown
<Kinnison> Warm
* Burgundavia hates the interface of bugzilla
* Kinnison missed out on going to vancouver. The Debian release team are having a meeting there
* Burgundavia wonders when you lazy launchpad people will finish malone
* Burgundavia wants to crash debian party in vancouver
<Kinnison> It's not so much a party as a very very very serious and scary meeting
<Burgundavia> but then there will be much drinking. I want to in on that
* Burgundavia is now unemployed and enjoying every minute of it
<Burgundavia> boy, did I kill the conversation or what
<Burgundavia> anyway, back to docteam stuff
<Kinnison> You're unemployed too?
* Kinnison sends more hugs
<Burgundavia> voluntarliy unemployed
<Burgundavia> I quit
<Burgundavia> I hate windoze
<Burgundavia> and helpdesking said os
<Kinnison> I see
<Burgundavia> to install corel draw 10 as non-admin user
<Burgundavia> 1.5 hours
<Kinnison> yeesh
<Burgundavia> 2 registry key permissions
<Burgundavia> 2 folder permissions
<Burgundavia> 2 service pakcs
<Burgundavia> must be done before program is ever run
<Burgundavia> which meant I had to reinstall
<Burgundavia> apt-get intall corel-draw-10 didn't work for some reason
* Kinnison grins
<Burgundavia> I was most annoyed
<Kinnison> I'll go over the scrollback in a sec
<Burgundavia> oh, the best part, before I discovered this fix, the error is merely a blank error box with a red x in it
<Burgundavia> all this for one user
* froud agrees with Burgundavia on the windoze stuff
<froud> btw you are not off your rocker
<froud> there is much merit in what you are saying
<froud> in an ideal world
<Burgundavia> dammit, I want my ideal world now
<froud> :-) speak to santa
<Burgundavia> right
<froud> is there anything else you wanna cover, I need to get back to doing some work
<Burgundavia> no, I was just hashing stuff out. I will write something to the list and we can all chop it apart
<froud> ok
* jeffsch has rum out of run and is going to bed
<Kinnison> Burgundavia: you look fairly sane to me
<froud> hello Kinnison 
<Kinnison> hi froud
* Burgundavia has got them all fooled
<froud> I gave you a hug the other day under the pretence you were a Linux chic now I find out differently :-)
* Kinnison said he was chic
<Kinnison> and I am
<Kinnison> dsilvers@petitemort:~$ dict chic | grep adj
<Kinnison>        adj : elegant and stylish; "chic elegance"; "a smart new dress";
<Kinnison> I didn't at any time claim to be a girl
<froud> so why does Burgundavia refer to you as an mad gay Englishman
<Burgundavia> damn, I wish I had my pictures online
<Kinnison> froud: because I am ?
<Burgundavia> then I could show froud the real thing
<Kinnison> Burgundavia: Yeah well; we have our pitiful snow
<froud> oh dear
<froud> I must realy be more careful who I hug :)
* Kinnison took some photos and put them at http://users.pepperfish.net/dsilvers/jdub/ for jdub :-)
<Burgundavia> ugh, white stuff
<Kinnison> Burgundavia: it's not *real* snow by canadian standards; but it's what we have :-)
<Burgundavia> still too much white stuff for me
* froud agrees
<Kinnison> Burgundavia: it's actually quite warm still
* Kinnison expects most of it to be gone by tonight
<froud> 29deg in Johannesburg
<froud> sun and blue sky
<Burgundavia> joburg != england
<froud> working in shorts with door wide open
<froud> I know I lived in London for 4 years
<Burgundavia> When I flew into London after Spain it was very depressing
<Kinnison> froud: I was in CT at the start of Feb. I was too hot
<froud> :-)
<Burgundavia> the english had not one, but 2 layers of overcast
<froud> for an Englishman yes
<Kinnison> Burgundavia: Just to make sure :-)
<Burgundavia> yes
<froud> I just got back from CT
<Burgundavia> wouldn
<Burgundavia> want any sun getting through
<Burgundavia> its bad for you, y'know
<froud> we had great weather
<froud> and some rain to cool it down
<Burgundavia> currently sunny and about 10 here
<Kinnison> http://www.geekhouse.no/Albums/fosdem2005/p2260028.sized.jpg
<Kinnison> And the moral of the story is... When Kinni get drunk; his friends do too
<froud> ah african weather is great
<Burgundavia> dammit, I need to move to Europe
<Kinnison> Burgundavia: yay
<Kinnison> come to the dour overcastness
<Burgundavia> west coast is where the devs come to have "serious and scary" meetings
<Kinnison> Cambridge is where they come to get pished
* froud thinks Kinnison needs some sun
<Burgundavia> Kinnison: I was thinking southern spain
<Burgundavia> or france
<Kinnison> Burgundavia: Andalucia is gorgeous
<Burgundavia> and linux mad
* Kinnison was in Seville at the very very start of Feb at the Guadalinex meetings
<froud> people, see ya
<froud> I is off
<Burgundavia> http://old.hispalinux.es/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=188&mode=&order=0
<Kinnison> Burgundavia: yep; cool isn't it?
<Burgundavia> BC Gov has standardized on AD and Win2k3
<Burgundavia> ugh
<Burgundavia> and Exchange
<Burgundavia> they also have consolidated all the ministries IT staff to one ministry
<Burgundavia> Kinnison: anyone seen plovs around recently?
* Kinnison was asleep until about an hour ago
<Kinnison> lovely sleep
<Burgundavia> is 2am here
<froud> enrico: hi
<enrico> Hi froud!
<enrico> I still haven't posted about my conversation with mdz
<enrico> I'll make a couple phone calls and I'll be on it
<froud> I read it on the channel
<froud> devel
<Burgundavia> hey
<froud> ho
<Burgundavia> see the post to the list?
<froud> here is something different
<froud> "When you play a Microsoft CD backwards you can hear demonic Voices...
<froud> thats nothing - when you play it forward it installs Windows"
<froud> Burgundavia: yes
<Burgundavia> where is that from?
<froud> gauteng linux user group mailing list
<froud> any Solaris fans here http://madpenguin.org/cms/?m=show&id=3542
* froud is very happy about Solaris
<Burgundavia> Please continue reading after you have stopped laughing. - I like that line
<Burgundavia> I am skeptical
<froud> I'm not but you must read the fine print in the license VERY CAREFULLY
<enrico> Burgundavia: hello!  How are you doing?
<froud> you've been warned
<Burgundavia> enrico: good. I haven't had internet in 2 months
<Burgundavia> it sucked
<froud> I will die without Internet for 1 day
<Burgundavia> i barely survived
<froud> everytime I go on holiday the Internet comes with me
* Kinnison survived without for a week on holiday at xmas
<froud> XML manifests. This is where things get different. Every service has an XML file that holds information about the service. What other services does it depend on? What services does it not depend on, but are recommended? All these relationships and more are stored in the manifests.
<froud> SMF
<froud> cool
<froud> Burgundavia: can we expect a patch from you today
<Burgundavia> what I did completely borked, so I have to work on it some more
<Burgundavia> it is also 4am here
<Burgundavia> expect it by today later ~ 12 hours
<enrico> lunch
<Burgundavia> all right, night/morning all
* froud will be out of office for a few hours
<froud> enrico: 
<froud> enrico: what is the mailman url for subscription management to comit list? I cant find it in wiki
<enrico> froud: lists.ubuntu.com has an index.  Let's see...
<enrico> http://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-doc-commits
<froud> thanks
<enrico> np
<froud> enrico: just wanted to update https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/ForTheHasty
<enrico> froud: great!
<froud> enrico: why is there the option for this computer only on the screen resolution interface
<froud> system > preferences
<enrico> Don't know.  My Virtual Hoary is still updating, so I can't even check :-(
<enrico> Could it be because of things like XDMCMP and remove tessions?
<froud> dunno but typical user has no use for it
<froud> admin could
<enrico> s/remove/remote/
<froud> enrico: how do I configure the bittorrent thing
<froud> it wants a mata file
<froud> meta
<froud> where can I find a meta file for bittorrent
<enrico> froud: never used the bt thing
<froud> me neither hence I ask
<froud> enrico: I just ran a build of ubuntu-docs local and installed and they dont show in yelp other
<froud> enrico: ok ignore that last message I acidently screwed my scrollkeeper system
<froud> now it is fix and the ubuntu-docs show
<enrico> froud: on,nice!
<froud> yeah panic set in for aminute
<froud> then I realized what I had done
<froud> got my omf databases mixed up
<froud> sorry for the false alarm
<froud> enrico: next release I can going to use the xsl's from either GNOME or TLDP to automatically make the OMF files
<enrico> Automatically from what?
<froud> from the docbook
<enrico> Oh.  That'd be cute!
<froud> I did not spend much time looking at OMF until now and I see xsl's from gnome and tldp can do this for us. with a few changes for ourselves
<froud> that way the omf files are automade during our build
<enrico> That'd avoid some dangerous duplication of text
<froud> no need to hav ethem in svn
<froud> they will be create din the build dir
<froud> but boy what a song and dance to get things in OMF and yelp
<froud> mission stuff, for something so simple
<enrico> froud: I agree.  I think it's so because noone ever cared about the output
<enrico> developer-side, it's a fire-and-forget: you drop a OMF file there, and it'll show up somewhere
* froud decides that early to bed is a good idea tonight. b c'ing ya
<sm> hey all
<sm> the ubuntu site's  code style has an unreadable red background, see eg http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/WikiTips
<sm> I'd like to make it lighter.. this will affect the whole site
<sm> shouldn't cause problems, right ?
<enrico> sm looking...
<enrico> BLEAH!
<enrico> yes, please, do change it!
<enrico> sm: thanks!!
<abelli> ciao a tutti
<sm> thx enrico.. changed now, better suggestions welcome
<abelli> enrico: thank you for the warm welcome. ;)
<enrico> abelli: I'm fairly busy
<abelli> enrico: i understand magister, sorry if i doubted of her ;)
<enrico> I can't convince hoary's gdm to display the date in the bottom-right in English :(
<Burgundavia> hmm
<abelli> maybe it's french.. 
<Burgundavia> did you see the debate that froud and I had?
<enrico> yes... but I'm just postpoining thinking about it until the docteam meeting
<Burgundavia> ok
#ubuntu-doc 2005-03-16
<sm> is it just me, or does the ubuntu-doc list deliver kind of slowly ?
<Burgundavia> seem to be getting it fine
<froud> African Greetings. Another sunshine morning in Johannesburg
<maskie> morning froud from a hot sticky cape town
<froud> sunny but cool this morning, guess there are benefits to not having an ocean near.
<maskie> at least i can go jump in the sea when it gets to hot ...
<froud> I have a salt water swimming pool in the front yard
<froud> but no wave machine
<froud> and no white beach sand
<froud> well that could be a blessing, the sand thing I mean
<maskie> and the water is not as cold as in the sea here
<froud> yes, so I found out. Thought I was never going to see my you know what again.
<froud> Ah pool heating
* froud always know when maskie is gonna be online because of call-more time :-)
<maskie> unfortunately not all of us have the joys of dsl
<froud> Ah that reminds me. What about the new packages telscum are doing
<froud> they could be good for you
<froud> Hmmm but then there is the cap
<froud> Ho Hum. Does anyone care to review and close my last commits :-/ pretty please
* froud note to enrico release notes now contain images. I have modified "make imagelist:" to create a txt file that provides the list of images for your input. You may have to update imgsel and other stuff.
<froud> Anyone want to add ubuntu-docs to the release notes :-)
<jeffsch> hi froud. I looked at your latest in quickguide
<froud> ok
<maskie> froud, problem with dsl is that on top of the adsl line cost you have to pay high ISP costs ... my ISDN dialup ISP costs at very low at the moment
<froud> *our* latest quick guide
* froud smiles at maskie 
* froud hugs his 512 dsl
<jeffsch> I don't feel qualified to convert from "review" to "complete"... spelling is ok though...
* froud hopes the price comes down
<froud> US Spelling is good. Go for it
<froud> any patches for grammar and spelling problems welcome
<froud> not all contributors are doing spellchecks and most are not english speakers. so go for it
<jeffsch> I am burning latest hoary disk... i boot it soon to see if and how new apps work... :-)
<froud> do you have warty
<froud> you can just upgrade online
<froud> to hoary
<froud> it's fatser and you can see the changes incrementally
<jeffsch> yes, i have warty... how do i upgrade... using synaptic
<froud> yes lemme get the uri's fo ryou
<jeffsch> thanks
<jeffsch> someday it would be nice to see a style guide for ubuntu docs
<jeffsch> something similar to http://developer.gnome.org/documents/style-guide/
<jeffsch> I am booting hoary on laptop, but don't want to install
<jeffsch> how to run as live cd?
<froud> install qemu
<froud> sorry I had to step out now back
<froud> yes, styleguide will develop in time
* jeffsch is googling qemu
<froud> here comes the info
<venda> jeffsch, in synaptic select Settings > Repositories
<venda> click add
<venda> type = binary
<venda> uri = http://archive.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/
<venda> distribution = hoary
<venda> sections = main restricted
<venda> next
<venda> add again
<venda> this time
<venda> type = source
<venda> uri "as above"
<venda> distribution = "as above"
<venda> sections = "as above"
<venda> next
<venda> add again
<venda> type binary
<venda> uri = http://security.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/
<venda> distribution = hoary-security
<venda> sections = main restricted
<venda> next
<venda> add again
<venda> type source
<venda> uri = http://security.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/
<venda> distribution = hoary-security
<venda> sections = main restricted
<venda> thats it
<venda> oh remember to deselect warty
<froud> jeffsch: hope that helps
<froud> jeffsch: trickie is also looking for review of the release notes if you feel like doing it ;;;;;;-)
<jeffsch> venda: done. so now i just select all upgradeable packages?
<froud> jeffsch: yes
<froud> btw. venda is me on another host
<jeffsch> froud: i still irc newbie... when you say "here comes info" and then "hope this helps" ????
<jeffsch> DOH!!! venda = froud!!!!
<froud> after you have done the upgrade the Ubuntu Update Manager will do the rest for you
<froud> you can configure the update-manager to download the updates for you but not install until you tell it to
<froud> handy really
<jeffsch> ok i do it now. wish me luck...
<froud> every now and then I just run the update manager and see what it has for  me. Then I upgrade to the next step in hoary
<jeffsch> that's what i've been doing with warty, but i didn't know until know how to get hoary.
<jeffsch> thanks eh
<froud> cool, you can also use update-manager to see the changlog of what happened on a package. That is how I check to see if anyting impacts on documentation we are doing
<venda> for example the note "Added acpi-support to desktop-ia64" may add something to the desktop so I go looking to see once the ubuntu-desktop package is installed
<froud> jeffsch: I do caution if you plan on using the same method post hoary release for grumpy. It is likely that the distro will, at first, become unstable during grumpy devel
* froud is off for awhile
<jeffsch> hmmm... i try try to install hoary on my laptop, but it tells me that it will destroy existing partitions
<jeffsch> am I missing something? surely it will install beside windows(spit)
<abelli> jeffsch: have you tried to chose to partition the disk by yourself?
<jeffsch> there is a choice: Erase entire disk, or Manually edit
<jeffsch> I chose manually edit
<jeffsch> DOH!!!
<jeffsch> I missed something...
<jeffsch> it didn't seem obvious to me which item on the list to select....
<jeffsch> I chose the IDE1 master (hda) blah blah blah
<jeffsch> instead of the  #1 primary blah blah blah, which is indented and not looking like its own selection... :(
<jeffsch> ok. now i see "You are editing partition #1 of IDE1 master (hda). This partition is formatted with the ntfs"
<jeffsch> Use as: do not use, Bootable flag: on, Size: 80.0 GB
<jeffsch> how to partition? in warty install (IRC) it seemed obvious what to do, but now.... :(
<jeffsch> froud: i will take a look at release notes by trickie after my hoary upgrade is complete
<jeffsch> ok. that does it. I am not putting hoary on my laptop. I am too afraid it will destroy my existing partition
<froud> jeffsch: does your partition take the whole disk
<froud> the ntfs one
<jeffsch> yes
<froud> you can do a resize, but it can be risky
<froud> no sur eif the hoary install does a resize safely I never tested it
<jeffsch> i don't recall seeing a resize option. it only seemed that I could overwrite or not install
<jeffsch> but I could be wrong - it is 2am afterall
<froud> Hmm dunno really. My SuSE 9.2 it just does a resize for you
<froud> best to do this type of thing with a clear head
<froud> perhaps look for a tool that will help you resize the partition. Use that to do the work and then just install hoary to the new partition
<froud> have you asked on #uubuntu
<froud> #ubuntu
<jeffsch> zoiks!!! a clear head!!!! too much trouble!!! hehe :-)
<jeffsch> hoary update on main machine is progressing, but it keeps asking questions to which i don't know the answer
<froud> what are the questions
<froud> keyboard stuff
<jeffsch> questions like "overwrite this conf file here,  or keep the original?"
<froud> unless you have specific settings just overwrite
<jeffsch> I don't know if the new file is essential for haory, or if it is essential for existing config
<froud> if you have made changes to a config file then you should keep the original or you can redo the settings
* froud must go for a bit
<jeffsch> too late. successfully did all changes. I will restart. wish me luck!
<jeffsch> auughhhh!!! not good not good not good
<jeffsch> only screen resolution available is 800x600
<jeffsch> whew! got it fixed. I copied old cofig file over one installed by hoary upgrade
<jeffsch> time for bed... see yall later
<enrico> jeffsch: good night!
* froud is back
<abelli> jeffsch: ciao
<abelli> buona notte
<froud> ello
<abelli> froud: woza
<froud> yebo
<froud> sawubona abelli, gunjani wena. Funani
<froud> Funani?
* froud goes to lunch
<abelli> enrico: how would you translate Release Schedule?
<abelli> froud: im sorry but today i havent been able to answer... i was missing a word
<enrico> abelli: Piano per il rilascio?  ma  orrendo
<abelli> enrico: yeah it is
<abelli> :)
<enrico> it pretty much depends on the context and the public
<abelli> what about Programma.. mmm.. i'm translating the website
<enrico> Programma delle Release
<abelli> enrico: yeah thank you
<abelli> what does "to end up in violent agreement" mean?
<enrico> to agree *a lot* :)
<abelli> ok
<abelli> there's a mispelling in the License Policy page, 
<abelli> or at least i thing so
<abelli> ...mmm well is "sustainably" english?
<enrico> sustainable is, so sustainably looks like a good adverbization of it
<enrico> "adverbization" probably doesn't exist, though :)
<abelli> eheh:)
<froud> enrico: abelli: there is no word "sustainably" in the English dictionary. However it is possible to use it as a term and may be used in colloquial speach.
<abelli> it's the ubuntulinux.org website
<froud> abelli: you have to give a uri, please
<abelli> froud: sorry
<abelli> http://www.ubuntulinux.org/ubuntu/licensing/document_view
<froud> the tone of this para would qualify as colloquial so I would just add quotes around the word.
<abelli> froud: what about "tipically"?
<abelli> aint it typically?
<abelli> ...another thing. i dont know if this is your duty or not..
<abelli> but in some pages only "3 components" are listed..
<abelli> in others, as i think it should be, multiverse is also cited
<enrico> abelli: please make a list of the pages as you see them and post it in the list
<abelli> yeas sorry
#ubuntu-doc 2005-03-17
<froud> African Greetings
<maskie> morning froud
<maskie> from rainy cape town
<froud> morning maskie 
<froud> Sun and a bit of wind up hear . Goo dto hear you guys have some rain. You need it
<maskie> was not much but we will take every little bit
<maskie> froud, btw how was your trip to cape town
<froud> Most excellent, we spoke about this last Sunday
<froud> Should have a few more trips planned
<froud> now that I have more customers in CT
<maskie> you must just be carefull ... you might just like this place and move here
<froud> the risk is high
<froud> actually if I get enough customers I will do it
<maskie> change always has risks
<froud> Just rent my home in JHB and move
<froud> no worries
<froud> Kinda like Hout Bay
<froud> secluded but not to far from central
<maskie> it is a nice area .. did you know they have their own "passport"
<froud> yes and I understand people actually used it to enter some countries
<froud> eventhought it is not a recognized one
<froud> :-)
<froud> I want a hout bay passport too, whaaaaa
<maskie> so buy some property there and you can have one
<froud> The view from Chapmans Peak over that region is magnifico
<maskie> it is but be carefull of chapmanspeak ... rocks might just faal on you
<maskie> s/faal/fall
<froud> yes they have those rock barriers
<froud> scary stuff
<froud> Longbeach also looks lekker
<maskie> which sometime break when we have rain ... but since we do not have rain it is not a problem
<froud> hey thanks for the late warning there was rain the day before we went through
<froud> see I did bring some rain with me
<froud> you asked I delivered
<maskie> the light rain we get these days in no problem
<froud> He he it was not light rain the day before
<froud> I could not see where I was driving
<froud> and of course we decided to go up Table Mountain that morning
<froud> as we got to the top the clouds closed in 
<maskie> what did you think of stellenbosch
<froud> Actually did not get there
<maskie> ok
<froud> I got confused
<froud> I thought TSF was there, but they are in Durbanville
<froud> so saw Durbanville instead
<froud> nice wine land
<maskie> i stay just next to durbanville ... both my kids are in durbanvile at school ... know exactly where tsf is ... who did you meet there - thomas
<froud> Yes. Met with Thomas on some work
<maskie> nice offices  they have ....
<froud> Interesting thing about CT is that you guys still have lots of small shops on the high street
<froud> yes very posh
<froud> here in JHB those small shops are disappearing
<froud> we have malls, malls and malls
<froud> but when you get back to JHB from CT, you realize just how big JHB is
<froud> dam it takes 1 hour from the airport to my home in Northcliff
<maskie> and that is outside peak time
<froud> yes
<froud> and at 120 per hour
<maskie> our traffic now gets very bad from durbanville area into town
<froud> yes traffic is not good in CT
<froud> I got stuff comming out of central is peak traffic
<froud> needless to say my left leg got a good workout
<maskie> problem is we have limited entry points into town 
<froud> yes
<froud> btw spent the last day in Kirstenbosh Gardens
<froud> oh boy
<froud> my legs were hurting for two days
<froud> man that place is bug
<froud> big
<froud> we thought it would be a nice restful way to end the stay
<froud> boy were we miss guided
<froud> Just the day before we did Cape Point
<froud> of course we walked up
<froud> and down
<froud> nice view, but boy did I hurt
<froud> made me realize how unfit I am
<froud> spending too much time between the keyboard and the seat
<maskie> then next time you here you must go up table mountain but not by cable car but climb
<froud> He he, you kidding me right. I wantch people younger than me trying it and it looked very painful.
<froud> Down maybe, up, uh uh
<froud> you will have to carry me up. On your back
<froud> Geeks dont do so well with all that macho physical stuff
<maskie> it is easier up than down .. and depending on what route you take it is not tha bad ... the one from kirstenbosch is not that bad
<froud> says maskie who is probably a fitness fanatic
<maskie> i think the next ubuntu conf must be in cape town .. that is the one after sydney
<maskie> not really froud
<froud> oh most definately
<froud> Canonical are you listening. WE WANT THE NEXT MEETINGIN CAPE TOWN
<froud> Aussie is too far away
<froud> Besides we need the tourism more than they do
<maskie> i think we need to wisper something in sabdfl's ear ... some suttle e-mails from time to time
<froud> Mmmmm. Yes, let me see who else can we brainwash
<froud> perhaps we can also bribe them with free wine
<froud> maskie: when are they gonna fix all those shacks in the route out of the airport
<froud> those poor people
<froud> does the major not have a conceince
<froud> oh       btw I got some great penguin shots
<froud> at Boulders
<froud> you can watch those penguins forever
<froud> small but funny creatures
<abelli> ciao a tutti
<maskie> that is a real problem but it goes back lot of years ... the major tries but it is a question of money 
<froud> sawubona abelli 
<froud> gunjani wena
<froud> maskie: well they must do something. It looks bad
<maskie> goeie more abelli
<froud> maskie: I was giving abelli zulu lessons yesterday :-)
<maskie> agree ... it everywhere like that just ours is near the airport
<froud> perhaps you can give him Afrikaans lessons
<maskie> in exchange for some italian
<froud> actually here in Gauteng it is improved
<froud> much
<froud> the problem is in Alexandra Township
<maskie> but you guys have more money than us ... :)
<froud> but they are making amazing progress
<froud> true
<abelli> no..it's too much
<froud> abelli: what
<abelli>  < froud> sawubona abelli
<abelli> 09:52 < froud> gunjani wena
<froud> oh ok
<abelli> :)
<abelli> i need time 
<abelli> ;)
<froud> wait I have notstarted to teach you the click sounds yet :-0
<maskie> froud looks like you have to start again
<maskie> luckily afrikaans has no click sounds
<froud> just the cccccccch
<froud> or is it ggggggggh
<abelli> i've seen a documentary on the telly,
<maskie> more the ggggggh
<froud> like ggggggghaan
<abelli> that explained how some children in a village in Africa
<abelli> learnt how to use a computer without keyboard..
<abelli> they were able to write emails...
<froud> he he cool
<abelli> withouth having ever seen a computer before... smart people
<maskie> abelli, what did they use ... touch screens
<froud> how do they write
<abelli> a trackball
<abelli> i think copy n paste
<froud> whew that must be slow
<froud> but then it's African time
<froud> abelli: did you know we dont use watches here in Africa, only tel time by the sun
<froud> ;-)
<abelli> my mum doesnt even know how to do it with the keyboard
<froud> it's really amazing
<froud> we take using a computer for granted
<froud> I dont think we really understand the barrier to learning a how to use a computer yet
<froud> We try make it easy, but that barrier still remains
<abelli> mmm how can you follow the sun withouth knowing what month is?
<froud> I think that speach recognition technologies need to improve more so anyone can do it
<froud> who care what month it is
<froud> we care about seasons
<froud> of course if you are in Natal (Durban) there are only two seasons
<froud> summer and winter
* froud wonders how a computer will interpret a click sound
<abelli> maybe with a click?
<froud> there are many click sounds
<froud> each slightly different
<froud> some high pitched and some low pitched
<froud> and a spectrum between them
<froud> maskie: now there is something worth programming
<abelli> froud: they will be interpreted in different ways..
<froud> yes
<abelli> obviously you may need a little time of learning
<abelli> because every user has different ways...
<abelli> of doing it.
<froud> maskie: do you feel like reviewing the Ubuntu Update Manager User manual for me
<froud> It's nearly finished
<maskie> froud, it will have to wait for about a week ... i am f
<maskie> gpne for most of the week
<sivang> froud: have you managed to rearrange the docs in a proper catagory in yelp?
<froud> sivang: no you were on it
<sivang> froud: ok, I thought there was some progress, well, it appear we have to create a new scrollkeeper catagory in ubuntu
<sivang> froud: to make this work. (I talked with shaun)
<maskie> have to run .. have to go find out all i can about mad cow desease 
<sivang> maskie: why so?
<froud> good go for it, I understand the changes need doing in Yelp first then we can change the omfs
<froud> maskie: dont say your cows have caught it
<maskie> one of my kids have some project on it and dad have to help
<sivang> froud: eh, well the changes in yelp are pretty trivial as I have shown to enrico, the hard part is making it a scrollkeeper catagory
<sivang> maskie: ah I spooked, since it's a very deadly deaseas
<maskie> yeah i know .... 
<froud> do you have cows
<sivang> maskie: we has once uncertainty here a couple of years ago, since then the heath department is always alert on this specific 
<maskie> luckily not me 
<froud> well good luck
<froud> tot siens
<maskie> thanks ... see ya later
* froud is looking for reviewers to the Ubuntu Update Manager Manual. Any takers, let me know
* froud is now off to the movies. b c'ing ya
<abelli> froud: ciao
<abelli> froud: this is Sicilian..
<abelli> like your Afrikaan... 
<abelli> "baciamo le mani"
<sivang> froud: btw, is there a bug report on our inability to create a new catagory?
<froud> sivang: no there is not since you said you were on it and gonna fix the problem. If you cannot, then I suggest you clearly state that you cannot do it and we will either make another solution or file a bug report and pray for help.
<sivang> froud: currently I'm lost wrt to it, so I'd suggest to go ahead and open a bug about it - if I have any future directions I will add a patch/comments on the bug report.
<sivang> enrico: Hi !
<enrico> hi sivang!
* froud files bug #7239 "Display Ubuntu Documents in first page of yelp" https://bugzilla.ubuntu.com/show_bug.cgi?id=7239
<sivang> froud: thanks :)
<jeffsch> hi all
<jeffsch> froud: do you still need reviewers of the Ubuntu Update Manager Manual?
#ubuntu-doc 2005-03-18
<froud> African greetings
<froud> jeffsch: yes I will need an editor after the developers have done a technical review
<jeffsch> How big is the manual?
<froud> jeffsch: 799 lines of XML :-)
<froud> Hello Liz
* froud must go the school run BRB
<Liz> hii..
<Liz> and ok
<jeffsch> froud: hmmm... if i print it out real small, 80 lines per page, that's only 10 pages!
<jeffsch> I can do that.
<jeffsch> hello Liz
<jeffsch> do you know how i can convert docbook to pdf?
<Liz> hi jeffsch..no idea im sorry
<Liz> never had to do that
<Liz> doesnt help that i cant see docbook neway
<Liz> it wont open in my browser
<jeffsch> use yelp
<Liz> i dont think i have yelp
<jeffsch> if you have ubuntu and are using gnome desktop, you have yelp
<Liz> oh..there it is
<Liz> yes i have it..its open
<Liz> now that i can see it..it looks really good
<froud> jeffsch: yes
<froud> you need to transform to xsl:fo using the fo stylesheets
<jeffsch> it's fop that i need after that, right?
<froud> then run the xsl:fo file through a formatting object processor like fop
<froud> yes
<jeffsch> how to find fop? which repository?
<froud> fop is at apache.org
<froud> I assume you already have either Saxon or Xalan/Xerces installed
<froud> no it's ok you hav exsltproc
<froud> xsltproc
<jeffsch> yes, i can do xml to fo with xsltproc
<froud> you should not that xsltproc does not support the docbook extensions
<jeffsch> so what is the best way to do it?
<froud> using saxon
<froud> the docbook extensions are not required
<froud> but if you want to use them then you need one ofthe java xslt processors
<froud> for example if you are using fop you will want to us ethe fop extensions
<jeffsch> I'm looking at http://xml.apache.org/fop/running.html and it seems everything I need is in the one download
<jeffsch> except for java of course
<jeffsch> what's a good directory to install it in?
<froud> jeffsch: you can put it anywhere. JUst export the path to your env
<froud> jeffsch: normall installe din /user/share/java/
* froud looks for people to do "GNOME BitTorrent" in the Quick Guide
* jeffsch looks for someone to tell him how to run file roller from the command line
* jeffsch he doesn't know the app name...
<Liz> i use bittorrent
<Liz> but i never could get gnomes one to work
<froud> jeffsch: if you are on the command line just use tar and gzip
<jeffsch> yes.... but I really wanted to try file roller... :(
<froud> if you want to run the GUI do file-roller
<froud> on ubuntu file-roller is called Archive Manager
<jeffsch> hmmm... a general question... how does one find out the name of an app on a gui menu?
<Liz> i gotta go
<Liz> see you all later
<froud> jeffsch: take a look in Synaptic
<jeffsch> I've got fop installed and ready to go, I'm still figuring out the entire process...
<jeffsch> froud: fop is throwing out of memory exception. I try to fix tomorrow. time for sleep
<jeffsch> see ya
<froud> jeffsch: ok
* froud is famous at last Yayyyy!!! http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/050307/lam011_1.html
<enrico> Hooray for froud!!
<froud> and it went out on all the pr channels
<enrico> "noted technical author and information architect" !
<froud> after nearly a year writing its about time
<froud> pretty cool book though
<froud> even if I say so myself
<enrico> :)
<froud> enrico: do you know if anyone is taking on that bug I listed about yelp
<enrico> no, I don't
<enrico> But I'll try to keep an eye
<froud> Oh well, gave mvo update-manager manual today
<enrico> coolness!
<enrico> going for dinner
<enrico> I can't say "trust me, we committed to transparency" :)
<enrico> sorry, this was for another channel
<mdke> hi there, anyone home for a chat? i wanted to talk about ubuntu documentation
<mdke> afaics the documentation online is very higgedy piggeldy and the local docs are not much better, and I wondered if there is any initiative in motion or pending to set this right?
* mdke reads bugzilla
<mdke> anyway lemme know if someone reads my message, i would be interested in discussing it and happy to do anything i can to help out
<enrico> Hey there!
<enrico> Welcome mdke!
<mdke> hi enrico
<enrico> We mainly focused on making books, yes
<enrico> those things at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocteamProjects
<mdke> hmm
<enrico> but the website is definitely lacking
<mdke> i tell ya what bothers me
<mdke> there are loads of docs 
<mdke> but they are all in different places
<enrico> Oh, yes
<mdke> there is a wiki, a wiki faq, an ubuntu faq, an ubuntu howto list etc etc
<mdke> and its impossible to search them
<mdke> i was looking for some simple information just now and it took me ages to fail to find it ;)
<enrico> The current plone sucks
<enrico> we're all waiting for a redesign
<enrico> And someone actively hacking on the website
<mdke> yeah i appreciate that
<mdke> but the problem for me is not the design, its the structure
<enrico> what do you mean?
<mdke> what i said before about all the docs being in different places
<mdke> imo the website needs a simpler structure for the help docs
<mdke> combine the faq, the wiki faq, the wiki howtos, the ubuntu howtos, the ubuntuguide etc etc and have them in the same place
<enrico> The difference between the website and the wiki is that the website would list "official" informations, while the wiki is free for everyone to edit
<mdke> sure
<mdke> i think in an ideal world the wiki would not have docs in
<mdke> just brainstorming
<mdke> but that will take a lot of time
<mdke> hmm
<mdke> enrico, have you seen how the docs for gentoo are organised?
<mdke> http://www.gentoo.org/doc/en/list.xml
<enrico> that's quite a long list
<mdke> yeah but its all in one place
<mdke> hmmm
<mdke> maybe i'm talking rubbish
<mdke> i guess what I am asking for is for an integration of ubuntuguide and the wiki with the official "support" section of the website, but maybe its not feasible
<enrico> the other thing is that the ubuntuguide is far from being completed
<mdke> ah
<mdke> right fair enough
<enrico> (and plone wouldn's support documents on multiple files, so putting it in there would be hard)
<enrico> that's why the quickguide is not there either
<mdke> is the quickguide different to ubuntuguide?
<mdke> gosh
<enrico> But I think a wishlist for the website would be very needed
<mdke> hmm
<mdke> i'll subscribe to your list
<enrico> quickguide: http://people.ubuntu.com/~mako/docteam/quickguide/
<mdke> btw sei italiano?
<enrico> mdke: si si!
<mdke> :)
<mdke> io no
<enrico> The quickguide is quite cool
<mdke> but i speak italian
<enrico> ma lo parli
<mdke> :)
<mdke> si l'ho imparato
<mdke> mi piace molto l'italia
<mdke> i'll check out the quickguide
<enrico> it's an introduction to things, not really a user guide
<mdke> where is it found locally?
<mdke> nm found it
<mdke> heh
<mdke> the ubuntu related guides could have their own section in the Help Topics
<enrico> the QG is just an introduction, but I wish every system had one like that
<mdke> they look out of place alongside the "GNU time command"
<enrico> It's quite cute to get you started
<mdke> hmm
<enrico> oh, yes: we're trying to fix yelp cathegories
<mako> mdke: hola!
<mdke> hi mako
<mdke> pleased to meet ya
<mako> mdke: so i hear you want to help with the website :) 
<mdke> i would like to
<mako> i would like you to!
<mdke> i'm reading
<mdke> i don't know docbook
<mako> so what you should know is that (a) most stuff is in the wiki of which anyone can just edit
<mdke> yes
<mako> and (b) most of the stuff that is in the website proper, anyone can edit
<mdke> ah
<mako> ther are only a dozen pages or so that are locked
<mako> things like the front page, the governnace pages, the code of conduct
<mdke> i was thinking that the website proper "support" section could do with having more stuff in it. the wiki is not the most desirable place
<mako> totally
<mdke> hmm
<mako> our thought was that as things get "stable" in the wiki, stuff can be moved over
<mdke> is there a policy on what can go in the support section?
<mako> so if there are excellent high quality pages in the wiki that haven't changed in a long time, you can move them over
<mako> mdke: umm. high quality and stable are the two major criteria for inclusion i think.. and correct
<mdke> i tell you what is really needed: the RestrictedFormats stuff. But problem is that the wiki is really bad
<mako> ok, so in that case, the work to improve it should be done in the wiki and then, when it's high quality and stable, it can be moved over :)
<mdke> hmm
<mdke> the problem with that is that the wiki grows rather than develops
<mdke> people don't want to just scrap the previous stuff, so they add things, instead of replacing them with clearer things
<mako> yes, i've seen that
<mdke> its the nature of a wiki
<mako> the only solution is for someone to take on an editorial role and edit
<mdke> that might be a good solution
<mdke> how do they do it on wikipedia? ;p
<mako> editorial collectives
<mako> or committees
<mako> or whatever they call them
<mako> editors
<mdke> well i am happy to try and work privately on some editing, and then submit them to someone with power for approval.
<mdke> but only if you want
<mako> we have full version control. go ahead and make the changes. they can always be reverted
<mdke> oh i c
<mako> if you are unsure, make the changes and then point them out to this channel or to me
<mako> or to #ubuntu-devel
<mdke> i would be nervous about rewriting the RestrictedFormats wiki
<mako> to ask for a second opinion
<mdke> and changing it without approval
<mako> it can always be reverted
<mdke> i don't want to get lynched ;)
<mdke> ok
<mdke> then maybe i will give it a go
<mako> reorganization is fine
<mako> wiki's need gardening
<mako> gardeners even
* mako coughs in enrico's direction
<mdke> if i do something, i'll come and discuss in here or on the list
<arsre> hello
<mdke> mako, btw was that your unhappy birthday site i saw the other day?
<mdke> hi arsre 
<arsre> can any body help me 
<mako> mdke: yes, that was mine
<mdke> mako, heh that was great
<arsre> about ubuntu
<arsre> graphichs
<mako> arsre: perhaps
* enrico has a full-time job
<mako> arsre: whatcha need?
<mdke> lol
<mdke> enrico, di dove sei?
<enrico> mdke: di Bologna
<mdke> che bello
<arsre> i my resoluton and graphics are poor
<arsre> cant reed what is happing on screen
<mdke> arsre, you need to ask in #ubuntu, they will be better placed to help
<mdke> arsre, there is more of them too
<mdke> (or do you guys do support in here?)
<arsre> ok thanx
* mdke treads on toes
<enrico> mdke: how about you?
<mdke> enrico, london, UK
<mdke> enrico, i spent last year in firenze
<enrico> mdke: not much support here, unless to people writing docs
<mdke> k
<mdke> enrico, and one year in siena a few years ago
* mdke shudders
<enrico> mdke: wow.  You got fluent in tuscanian vernacular as well :)
<mdke> per fortuna no
<mdke> ho incontrato una ragazza calabrese...
<enrico> WOW
<mdke> but i haven't learnt calabrian yet ;)
<enrico> Did she teach you Pizzica?
<mdke> hmm
<mdke> spicy?
<mdke> her sister married a guy and they lived near bologna for a while 
<mdke> in grizzana and then castiglione dei pepoli
<mdke> lovely place
<enrico> Pizzica is a dance from the south.  Like Tarantella.  It's really fun, and it has some extremely interesting sides
<mdke> heh
<mdke> i've gotta learn it
<enrico> grizzana and castiglione are really lovely
<mdke> i like the mountains
<mdke> smells much nicer than florence ;)
<enrico> Pizzica and Taranta can be fun, can be extremely seducing, and can be danced in a way that gives you mistical visions :)
<mdke> cool
<enrico> Oh, Florence's air is quite bad
<mdke> heh
<mdke> *sighs
<enrico> mdke: what happens?  Someone kicked you out
<enrico> okno
<enrico> sorry, silly me
<mdke> ping
<mdke> the ping monster
<mdke> hey something has struck me
<mdke> there is no way the restrictedformats wiki could aspire to go on the site
<mako> why is that?
<mdke> ubuntu distances itself from much of that content no?
<mako> in some ways
<mdke> paste:
<mdke> **Note:** these are unsupported and may be illegal in your jurisdiction, we in no way endorse the use of these packages.
<mako> but that doesn't mean that cleaning it up is a bad thing
<mdke> oh sure i'll try and clean it up too
<mdke> need to find out the difference between the mplayer-ubuntu build and the mplayer-woody build in marillat
<mako> debdiff
<mdke> hmm
<mdke> difficult to resolve inconsistencies in this wiki
<mdke> compare:
<mdke> 1. "LAME can be used to encode MP3s if you install gstreamer0.8-lame."
<mdke> then further down
<mdke> 2. Also, for MP3 encoding, the following repository needs to be used:
<mdke> ::
<mdke>    URI:            http://apt.cerkinfo.be/
<mdke>    Distribution:   unstable
<mdke>    Section(s):     main contrib non-free
<mdke> If the packages in this repository don't work with your distribution (as they track sid), try the packages
<mdke> at http://henrik.synth.no/deb/ for MP3 encoding.
#ubuntu-doc 2005-03-19
<mdke> i've changed the RestrictedFormats wiki. Feel free to change back/correct mistakes. i've sent an email to the list too
<mdke> bed time now
<mdke> nice to meet you all
<froud> African Greetings
<froud> me sees some very interesting discussion in the irc log.
<froud> Burgundavia: morning. You should read IRC log, it will interest you ;-)
<Burgundavia> am doing now
<Burgundavia> who is mdke?
<Burgundavia> cool about the yahoo press release
<froud> Burgundavia: thanks, dont know mdke
<froud> mdke is a new entrant
<Burgundavia> alright, where should I send my patch?
<Burgundavia> ok, I have an issue with the links. They are not working correctly
<Burgundavia> maskie: you have commit access to the svn repo?
<froud> Burgundavia: you can send patches to the list
<froud> If you send it now I will check it. Thanks.
<Burgundavia> ok, I am almost done. Lots of language cleanup primarily
<Burgundavia> svn -diff?
<Burgundavia> should I include in the email or attach the patch?
<Burgundavia> all 500 lines of it?
<froud> attach the patch
<froud> which doc is it for please
<Burgundavia> quickguide
<Burgundavia> done
<froud> got it thank
<froud> Burgundavia:  nice one thanks, I have applied it
<Kinnison> Morning guys
<froud> Burgundavia:  in some places your checking was a bit intrusive. In other words your personal preference. But that's ok ;-)
<froud> Kinnison: morning
<froud> Burgundavia: we actually wanted more text than less :-)
<Burgundavia> froud: hmm
<Burgundavia> morning
<Burgundavia> I cut out some stuff that was better left explained elsewhere, IMHO
<Burgundavia> feel free to add anything you feel back in
<Burgundavia> I will have another patch for you in about an hour
<Burgundavia> much smaller this time
<Burgundavia> Kinnison: I wanted to thank for your 30 sec. intro to OO programming. That 30sec was more useful that 3 years of school
<froud> Burgundavia: sure, no worries, I will leave it in community hands now. However, it is always good to work in small patches. Work in a node, make changes and make a patch. That way it is easier to apply/not apply, role forward and backwards ;-)
<Kinnison> Burgundavia: *grin*
<abelli> Kinnison: what kind of introduction?
<abelli> Kinnison: ruby right? ;)
<Kinnison> abelli: naah; python in this instance because it's what we had to hand
<abelli> eheh :)
<abelli> Burgundavia: kinnison is the best teacher you could have had. :o)=
<Burgundavia> dammit, I want committ access to the svn repo
<Burgundavia> s/committ/commit
<Kinnison> svn is so crud. It ate my boyfriend's repository
<Burgundavia> well it is what they use
<abelli> Burgundavia i think that after having washed 300 times elmo's car.. youll easily have it :)
<Kinnison> Burgundavia: It's amazing. 1 working repo... rsync it... 1 non-working repo
<Kinnison> svn is so shit
<Burgundavia> ouch
<Burgundavia> so has he moved to baz then?
<Kinnison> And we rsynced the entire /home to a new OS installation
<Kinnison> he won't touch baz
<Kinnison> http://www.livejournal.com/users/nunfetishist/20189.html
<Burgundavia> Kinnison: what is the timeframe for moving bugzilla-->malone?
<froud> Kinnison: he did not configure live spanshot right
<froud> snapshot
<froud> All revision systems are prone to problems, the trick is to be a good admin and plan for disaster recovery
<froud> enrico: can you arrange with Burgundavia to setup svn commit account, please?
<Kinnison> froud: I don't like VCSs where the disaster recovery tools don't work
<froud> Kinnison: Hmm strange I have had good experiences with SVN.
<froud> I have corrupted my database a few times. Everytime I was able to recover
<enrico> froud: sure
<enrico> Burgundavia: around?
<Burgundavia> yep
<enrico> Burgundavia: please send me your preferred username and GPG key ID, and I'll forward that to Elmo
<enrico> If you have no gpg key, then please send me your preferred username, and the password encrypted with Elmo's GPG key
<Kinnison> Burgundavia: bet you're glad I convinced you to have a GPG key now :-)
<Burgundavia> Kinnison: actually, that key got munched when the hdd died on that laptop
<Kinnison> Burgundavia: boo hiss
<Kinnison> Burgundavia: You suck :-)
<Burgundavia> Kinnison: the only place it went to was the old svn repo
<Kinnison> Heh
<Burgundavia> that is why I didn't join the key signing
<mdke> morning all
<froud> hello mdke 
<mdke> hi
<froud> read your intersting discussion yesterday
<froud> nice ideas
<mdke> heh
<mdke> i find it easy to place myself in the boots of an ubuntu n00b
<mdke> worryingly
<mdke> >_>
<mdke> ,_<
<mdke> i think that since ubuntu is such a great user friendly distro, its docs should be user friendly too
<mdke> froud, anyway pleased to meet you, my name is matt
<froud> sorry I was on the bongo-drums (phone)
<mdke> lol
<froud> yes, all help is welcome
<froud> I dont touch wiki much
<mdke> hmm
<froud> only for Documentationteam stuff
<mdke> is there a space on the official website which refers question to wiki entries?
<froud> mostly workin in SVN on Docbook
<froud> frankly I have no idea
<froud> wiki is not for me
<froud> :-)
<mdke> np
<froud> I can work with it but find it better to focus
<mdke> i'll have a look
<abelli> froud: don't worry mdke feels comfortable writing on wax tablets
<froud> nice meeting you
<froud> abelli: lol
* mdke sends abelli to a far away country
<abelli> mdke: are you in italy now?
<mdke> nope
<abelli> good 
<mdke> sunny london
<froud> italy is a far away country
<mdke> good? harsh
<abelli> eheh
<mdke> bbl
<mdke> ciao cmq
<abelli> mdke: ciao bello
<froud> Com eto sunny South Africa dude
<mdke> ciao belli
<abelli> froud: will you host us?
<abelli> :)
<froud> no problem
<froud> and if I cant maskie will
<froud> and if he cant we will just hijack the tsf offices
<abelli> ehe
<abelli> where?
<abelli> where's tsf located?
<froud> Cape town
<mdke> nice
<mdke> bad luck on the cricket btw :p
<froud> what cricket
<mdke> well...
<mdke> the english cricket
<abelli> froud: yep, but is it in any particular building?
<mdke> i'd like to visit SA
<mdke> must be amazing
<froud> bong drum
<froud> did we play you
<froud> who won
<froud> you guys
<abelli> the italian rugby team graze perfection
<froud> yeah yeah
<abelli> mdke: you're not in ubuntu-it, doh.
<abelli> http://www.liberation.fr/page.php?Article=195004&Template=GALERIE&Objet=32832
<froud> Oh dudes, btw the yelp processing instruction is now enabled in Quick Guide
<froud> I mention this because some may be wondering wtbh it wont validate
<froud> if you nnneed to validate just comment the processing instruction
<mdke> abelli, the italian rugby team is doing equally well as the english one
<abelli> really?
<Burgundavia> test
<enrico> froud: ok, meeting.  What do we do?
<enrico> Even if I schedule it on the last allowed hour (19:00-20:00), you'll be there for half of the hour only
<enrico> OTOH, you're one of the most active people in the team
<enrico> I'm stuck
<mdke> enrico, giorno
<enrico> mdke: ciao!
<mdke> :)
<mdke> i was gonna try and work on the Docbook/DocBook wiki integration
<mdke> enrico, which to use as the final version?
<enrico> mdke: sorry, I didn't undertsand the question
<mdke> enrico, which address: wiki/Docbook or wiki/DocBook
<enrico> Ah! :)  Sorry
<mdke> my fault
<enrico> Boo.  I didn't know we have 2 different pages
<mdke> me neither
<enrico> http://www.docbook.org/ says "DocBook"
<mdke> DocBook is also the more developed wiki so that is easy
<mdke> ok devo andare
<mdke> a  piu tardi
<enrico> mdke: ciao!
<froud> enrico: dunno what to do. my bad
<enrico> froud: not many people replied to me.  We can still reschedule, even if it's not funny.
<Burgundavia> enrico: the tim eis good for me
<enrico> But it's better to have a crowded rescheduled meeting than a meeting with two people
<enrico> Burgundavia: ah, ok
<Burgundavia> yes
<Burgundavia> I just forgot to respond, sorry
<enrico> the other problem is that, as Burgundavia shows, I don't know if people didn't answer because they can't come, or if they didn't because they could come at any time
<Burgundavia> enrico: send another around saying rsvp or we reschedule
<enrico> Burgundavia: good idea
<froud> what about weekend
<froud> sorry enrico I totally forgot that I have lectures
<froud> but lectures come before FOSS
<enrico> so far it's me, john levin, corey, jeff and sivang
<enrico> Is there someone from the american west coast?
<enrico> Burgundavia: you are not from Vancouver, aren't you? :)
<Burgundavia> victoria
<Burgundavia> across the water
<enrico> timezone?
<Burgundavia> NA PST
<enrico> UTC+/- ?
<Burgundavia> -8
<enrico> argh
<Burgundavia> currently I don't work, so I can be up at any time
<enrico> I imagine you don't wake up at 6:00am
<Burgundavia> well, I have been up all night?
<Burgundavia> and it is 7am now
<enrico> omg
<Burgundavia> like I said, I currently don
<Burgundavia> t work
<enrico> I mean: 15:00UTC is 7:00 NA PST and 02:03 in Sidney
<Burgundavia> works for me
<Kinnison> have you slept at all yet??
<Burgundavia> since we last talked, no
<Kinnison> dude, that is not good for you
<enrico> uhm... but 22:00UTC is quite nice for many
<enrico> unless we start having russians in the team
<Burgundavia> Kinnison: yes, I know
<enrico> Burgundavia: I still haven't received the details for your svn account
<Burgundavia> haven't sent them yet
<Burgundavia> ah yes, I had flagged your previous email as todo, but had not done it yet
<enrico> Burgundavia: no problem.  I think your best priority is to get some sleep
<Burgundavia> I will email you later today
<froud> enrico: I told you so, "Participation in FOSS projects leads to sleep deprevation."
<enrico> ...and lots of fun!
<froud> oh yes
<froud> you added that
<Burgundavia> sleep is good
<froud> Hmm I think so
<froud> but I must do lectures now, so I will love you and leave you for about 3 hours
<froud> enrico: let us know via the list
<froud> oh you already have
<enrico> froud: :)
<froud> no flies on you dude
<mdke_laptop> anyone home who understands how the MoinMoin code of the wiki works?
<enrico> mdke_laptop: what do you mean?
<mdke_laptop> enrico, i need a doc which explains how to code the wiki using MoinMoin markup. I've basically understood headings, bullet points and numbered lists, but i need to figure out how to intent things
<enrico> HelpOnEditing
<enrico> wiki.ubuntu.com/HelpOnEditing
<mdke_laptop> thanks
<enrico> there are various other HelpOn* pages
<mdke_laptop> enrico, great ty
<sivang> mako: ping
<mako> sivang: hola
<sivang> mako: hola mako, still in spain? :)
<mako> sivang: no.. but i might be in columbia this time next week
<mako> where, unlike new york where i am now, there is probably not a snow storm
<sivang> mako: oh :) probably. what are you going to do there?
<mako> talking about why ubuntu rocks
<mako> rocking about ubuntu even :)
<sivang> mako: good for yoou, travelling all over the world for this ...
<abelli> mako: ping
<mako> abelli: hey dude
<abelli> mako: ciao
<mako> whats up
<abelli> mako: i don't think you need me on that meeting
<abelli> mako: mmm things are much better now
<abelli> mako: just wanted to let you know i won't be there.
<mdke> evenin
#ubuntu-doc 2005-03-20
<Burgundavia> we have an issue with the quickguide
<Burgundavia> my latest patch borked it
<Burgundavia> I think
<mdke_laptop> anyone here?
<mdke_laptop> can wikis have multiple parents?
<Burgundavia> I believe so
<Burgundavia> I would try it with some test pages
<mdke_laptop> i asked in #devel
<mdke_laptop> mdz said not
<mdke_laptop> i can't find an option to do it
<mdke_laptop> sucks big time
<Burgundavia> I think parenting is very counter intuitive, and shouuld be scrapped for a more flexible system
<mdke_laptop> yeah agreed
<mdke_laptop> who decides these things?
<mdke_laptop> is it a software limitation?
<Burgundavia> yes, it is a software limitation
<Burgundavia> the version of wiki software we use doesn't have a lot of useful features
<mdke_laptop> hmm
<mdke_laptop> who deals with this?
<Burgundavia> about hacking the wiki? talk to mdz
<Burgundavia> have you ever edited wikipedia?
<mdke_laptop> no
<mdke_laptop> is it good?
<Burgundavia> their wiki software has things called categories
<mdke_laptop> i read it quite often when i want to know something
<Burgundavia> and watchlists
<mdke_laptop> hmm
<Burgundavia> categories are similar to parenting in concept
<Burgundavia> by a page can be part of multiple categories
<Burgundavia> I personally think that mediawiki(the wiki engine that Wp runs on) is one of the most advanced and that we should either use it or steal its features
<mdke_laptop> i'm gonna post an inquisitive message on the list and see if people will discuss it
<mdke_laptop> shall we try and drag mdz in here to discuss it?
<mdke_laptop> he looks busy
<Burgundavia> I posted something to the list about switching to the wiki as primary source
<mdke_laptop> Burgundavia, what's your real name?
<Burgundavia> Corey Burger
<mdke_laptop> oh sorry
<Burgundavia> why?
<mdke_laptop> well i could have done a whois
<mdke_laptop> forced you to type more than necessary ;)
<Burgundavia> the meeting at the end of this week will cover that and much more
<Burgundavia> np
<mdke_laptop> ok
<mdke_laptop> i'll come to the meeting because i'm keen on helping out with the wiki
<Burgundavia> I suspect that I am outnumbered regarding the wiki as primary source idea
<mdke_laptop> what do you mean?
<Burgundavia> I want to drive all our docs out of a wiki. No svn
<Burgundavia> and change primarily over to writing task-based howtos
<Burgundavia> which is what most people really need, IMHO
<mdke_laptop> what is svn
<mdke_laptop> excuse my ignorance
<Burgundavia> subversion
<Burgundavia> revision control system
<mdke_laptop> i'm not sure you would be in the minority
<Burgundavia> http://subversion.tigris.org/
<mdke_laptop> the ubuntu docs are in a bit of a state
<mdke_laptop> there are too many sources
<Burgundavia> yes, we have quickguide, userguide and faqguide
<Burgundavia> I was thinking that we should get ubuntuguide.org and turn that into our wiki
<mdke_laptop> hmm
<mdke_laptop> people would revolt
<Burgundavia> faqguide is from ubuntuguide.org
<mdke_laptop> but i tell ya something
<mdke_laptop> gentoo has no wiki
<mdke_laptop> and it has the best docs i've ever seen
<mdke_laptop> website howtos + forum. full stop
<Burgundavia> wikis allow a very low barrier to entry
<Burgundavia> I just took a quick skim through the gentoo stuff
<mdke_laptop> it's not so much the wiki format i dislike, but the fact that docs are impossible to find, and there are so many sources
<Burgundavia> yes, I agree that they are good docs
<mdke_laptop> i can't tell you about the content
<Burgundavia> but they are targeted at a different group of users
<mdke_laptop> but the structure is good
<mdke_laptop> hmm
<Burgundavia> ubuntu-->average user
<mdke_laptop> yeah good point
<Burgundavia> gentoo-->power user
<mdke_laptop> but i think for average users
<Burgundavia> there are currently very few good docs for the average user
<mdke_laptop> the local stuff is the most important thing
<mdke_laptop> you know those guides you guys are working on
<mdke_laptop> quickguide
<Burgundavia> yes, the quickguide is a good step
<mdke_laptop> that is all they need
<Burgundavia> not really
<Burgundavia> quickguide is program based, not taskbased
<mdke_laptop> oh
<Burgundavia> it tells you about Evolution, not how to send an email
<mdke_laptop> i c
<mdke_laptop> so what tells you how to send an email?
<Burgundavia> nothing currently
<Burgundavia> see the prob?
<mdke_laptop> lol
<mdke_laptop> shit
<Burgundavia> That is where a wiki comes in
<Burgundavia> small, easy to digest docs
<mdke_laptop> yes
<Burgundavia> able to edit easily
<Burgundavia> keep very well organized
<mdke_laptop> well i will try and help out with the wikis cos they are in a mess
<Burgundavia> http://www.ubuntuforums.org/forumdisplay.php?f=15
<Burgundavia> that is the faq forum
<Burgundavia> that stuff should be a in a wiki
<mdke_laptop> hmm
<mdke_laptop> that's exactly what gentoo do
<mdke_laptop> http://www.gentoo-wiki.com gets the well developed forum tips and tricks topics
<Burgundavia> that is mediawiki, if you care to know
<mdke_laptop> you know i'm not much of a geek, but I can easily work on turning that stuff into wikis
<Burgundavia> I hate the current wiki
<mdke_laptop> but the wiki needs to be made accessible for users. The frontpage is about as useful as a kick in the head
<Burgundavia> I am a heavy WP editor, and I miss all the really nice stuff about mediawiki
<Burgundavia> there is a front page redesign in the works
<Burgundavia> we need the front page to point to a doc portal
<Burgundavia> like that gentoo page
<mdke_laptop> oh
<mdke_laptop> who works on the frontpage?
<Burgundavia> there was a contest that just finished to redesign the front page. I believe that somebody from canonical is working on it now
<mdke_laptop> i mean the wiki/FrontPage
<mdke_laptop> not the main website
<Burgundavia> oh
<Burgundavia> That would be us
<mdke_laptop> ok cool
<mdke_laptop> i wanna help
<Burgundavia> cut loose
<mdke_laptop> yay
<Burgundavia> it is a wiki, that is the point
<mdke_laptop> the wiki frontpage has been redesigned a couple of times
<Burgundavia> what we need is to break the actual docs away from the talking about docs stuff
<mdke_laptop> heh
<mdke_laptop> what do you have in mind when you say that?
<Burgundavia> I propose we try and get ubuntuguide.org to the offical docs
<Burgundavia> and we leave the wiki on ubuntu.com for talking about docs
<mdke_laptop> what do you mean by talking about docs?
<Burgundavia> there are already a lot of links to ubuntuguide.org, so it would be fairly transparent
<Burgundavia> the backend chatter between the doc team members
<mdke_laptop> oh
<mdke_laptop> well that must be like 1% of the wiki
<Burgundavia> like this irc channel
<mdke_laptop> well i suppose the idea is that things get pushed into the official guides when they are mature enough
<Burgundavia> yes
<Burgundavia> but if we make the wiki the offical stuff, then we don't have to worry about "pushing stuff into the offical docs when they are mature"
<mdke_laptop> i found a dud link in the wiki/FrontPage today, and can't find the relevant document. Can i just remove it? its' quite a prominent link
<mdke_laptop> Burgundavia, i thought you said you wanted to cut docs out of the wiki?
<Burgundavia> by cut I mean I want to create out of the wiki for the local desktop
<mdke_laptop> but continue using the wiki for developing?
<Burgundavia> The wiki would be the primary source still
<Burgundavia> we would just ship some of the howtos locally so those who have crap internet connections can still view them
<mdke_laptop> right
<mdke_laptop> but they would continue to be edited online?
<Burgundavia> mdke: regarding editing the wiki, the WP motto is "be bold". I like that
<mdke_laptop> really?
<mdke_laptop> WP is so good
<mdke_laptop> why don't more people muck it up?
<Burgundavia> mdke: We would probably freeze the stable stuff, so that it can be translated
<Burgundavia> they do, but most of the time it gets caught be people who actually want to create an encyclopedia
<Burgundavia> and reverted
<Burgundavia> people like me
<mdke_laptop> editors?
<mdke_laptop> we could do with editors
<Burgundavia> there are 3 classes of people at wp
<Burgundavia> editors -- everybody
<Burgundavia> admins -- who can delete pages and ban people
<Burgundavia> bureaucrats -- who can do some more things
<mdke_laptop> right
<mdke_laptop> i c
<mdke_laptop> yeah my use of "editors" was misplaced
<Burgundavia> anyway, it should be an interesting meeting
<mdke_laptop> yeah i will come and try and contribute
<mdke_laptop> is there a search tool on the wiki?
<Burgundavia> not that i know of
<Burgundavia> another flaw
<mdke_laptop> yeah that is shocking
<Burgundavia> the wiki is shockingly neglected
<mdke_laptop> ok consider me onboard
<mdke_laptop> name's matt btw
<mdke_laptop> nice to meet ya
<Burgundavia> likewise
<mdke_laptop> oh there is a search
<mdke_laptop> just not advertised
<mdke_laptop> oh it is advertised
<mdke_laptop> DOH!
<Burgundavia> yah, I just saw it as well
<mdke_laptop> the "installing ubuntu" link on the Frontpage is a dud link
<mdke_laptop> shame
<Burgundavia> i just sent an email to owner of ubuntuguide.org to see if he might be receptive to putting a wiki there
<mdke_laptop> you mean to replace the original one?
<Burgundavia> the current site is static warty stuff
<mdke_laptop> yeah i mean a wiki on ubuntuguide to replace the wiki on ubuntu.com?
<mdke_laptop> on in addition to?
<mdke_laptop> *or
<mdke_laptop> oh sorry, i'm beginning to understand what you were proposing earlier now
<Burgundavia> ubuntu wiki -- for dev stuff, of all stripes, not just doc
<mdke_laptop> Burgundavia, you might end up setting up a site in competition with the ubuntu.com site, given that that site has an official docs section too
<Burgundavia> ubuntuguide - where users go for info
<mdke_laptop> hmm
<mdke_laptop> but users might also go to ubuntu.com/support/documentation
<Burgundavia> the stuff on ubuntu.com would be migrated
<Burgundavia> we control everything on ubuntu.com
<mdke_laptop> hmm
<Burgundavia> thus all those would be pointed to ubuntuguide.org
<mdke_laptop> even the non-wiki stuff?
<Burgundavia> yes
<mdke_laptop> ok now this is sounding like a really good idea
<Burgundavia> absolutely everything would go into the wiki, in an organized fashion
<Burgundavia> one source
<Burgundavia> one place
<mdke_laptop> reduce the number of different sites
<Burgundavia> one doc to rule them all
<mdke_laptop> lol
<mdke_laptop> to bind them
<mdke_laptop> i will support this idea
<Burgundavia> and find them in the night
<mdke_laptop> heh
<Burgundavia> now we just need to get the stuck in the mud docbook users to sign on
<mdke_laptop> but the local docbook stuff would continue i guess
<mdke_laptop> i don't know much about docbook
<mdke_laptop> but presumably the local and online docs could both use that format
<Burgundavia> yes, for hoary, but for hoary+1, all wiki, with shipped html/pdf
<mdke_laptop> hmm
<mdke_laptop> and what about when grumpy is released?
<Burgundavia> grumpy is going be a rolling unstable, from what I understand
<mdke_laptop> oh
<mdke_laptop> interesting
<mdke_laptop> ok i'm gonna sleep
<mdke_laptop> cya again
<Burgundavia> there is no "official" codename for the next release
<Burgundavia> cya
<mdke_laptop> nite
<froud> African Greetings
<Burgundavia> hey
<Burgundavia> new patch to the list now
* froud wonders how long it will take before somebody updates the default page of the About Ubuntu option?
<Burgundavia> where is it?
<froud> System > About Ubuntu
<froud> Burgundavia: we need to hash out some work procedures
<Burgundavia> no, where is the doc to work on?\
<froud> I know people were apposed to this previously
<Burgundavia> flesh your idea out please
<froud> Burgundavia: the doc is done it is packaged in ubuntu-doc
<froud> work procedure
<froud> people didn't want hem
<froud> but I think we do
<Burgundavia> yes, rules tend to be constricting unless done right
<froud> I noticed that you are fixing things that once were not broke
<froud> this is notgood
<Burgundavia> ok
<Burgundavia> I understood string freeze to be this friday
<froud> all thos Not instead of not
<froud> dunno 
<froud> well see
<Burgundavia> is Not correct english?
<Burgundavia> I personally have never seen it written
<froud> true but in prior version it was not
<Burgundavia> hmm?
<froud> thi smeans it has creaped in
<froud> mainly because of large patches
<Burgundavia> it was in the doc that I first pulled down
<froud> In a previous revision it was written "not"
<Burgundavia> very odd
<froud> somebody did an autoreplace and the patch was applied
<Burgundavia> for Not?
<froud> seems like it
<froud> anyway
<froud> I think we need to focus on topics
<froud> make small patches
<froud> especially at late stages in the revision steps
<Burgundavia> I intend to, however, I don't have access right now to svn, and that is being worked on
<froud> sure
<Burgundavia> Do you have a major objection to the stuff I am doing?
<froud> then the best is to do change, create patch, then revert
<froud> then do new change, create patch, revert
<froud> I know it's a bitch
<froud> It's not your fault
<froud> look in the begin of a doc large patches are needed
<Burgundavia> well, I intend to wait until I get access, or until that patch I sent to the list gets applied before I do some more stuff
<froud> but near the end I think small ones are safer
<froud> I applied it
<froud> It was a good patch and in this case needed to be one patch not many patches
<froud> Anything that is a global replace of the same thing should be a single patch
<Burgundavia> But the langage stuff, you haven't seen anything that causes you issues?
<froud> anything that is a specific text edit should be a single patch
<froud> No your patches are good
<froud> the only thing with some of your changes was that they were intrusive to the paragragh of the original author
<froud> However, if something is a grammar, punctuation or spelling change it was in order
<Burgundavia> I don't think I understand
<froud> In principle somebody wrote a para
<froud> in some cases you have rewritten the para to your own taste
<froud> and made shorter
<froud> I did not always agree
<Burgundavia> Is it an issue to be rewritting other peoples stuff?
<froud> dunno if others feel the same
<froud> to a degree yes
<Burgundavia> Ok, 2 points
<froud> ok
<Burgundavia> 1. It is Ubuntu doc stuff, not there personal stuff. Not to be mean, but we are writing collective stuff
<froud> next
<Burgundavia> 2. There is some, IMHO, very bloated sentences. Shorter is generally better, both in sentences and words, as it is easier to translate
<froud> 1. because it is collective stuff we must respect the method that one author uses to explain something.
<froud> If the author says please review
<froud> then it is open to edit
<Burgundavia> But who is to judge that something is finished?
<froud> however, if it has gone through review then it should only get changes that are spelling, grammar, or punctuation
<Burgundavia> I happen to like this line from WP: If you do not want your writing to be edited mercilessly and redistributed at will, do not submit it.
<froud> In general deciding waht gets closed is not formal yet. This is one of my other points for work
<froud> We dont have a person acting as  editor
<Burgundavia> You see, I think that we should hack apart anything anybody writes if you think you can write it better.
<froud> I think as the team forms we need to appoint one or two editors
<Burgundavia> I completely disagree
<froud> Burgundavia: you are not being sensitive to certain human issues
<Burgundavia> I dislike that cathedral method of doing things
<Burgundavia> Ok, sorry
<Burgundavia> I have been up a very many hours
<Burgundavia> However, what I really care about is good, easy to read docs at the end of the day
<Kinnison> Burgundavia: have you been to sleep yet?
<Burgundavia> Kinnison: nope
* Kinnison sends Burgundavia to bed with a cocoa
<Burgundavia> Kinnison: well, since we last talked, yes
<Kinnison> dude; get your body clock fixed
<froud> you need to take into consideration that what is good to you may not be good to another
<Burgundavia> I totally understand that
<froud> Some people contribute because they get to see their text in the doc
<Burgundavia> so do I
<froud> yes but you arrive late and then hate the shit out of what others did
<Burgundavia> It is much easier to rip apart something after it has been done
<froud> that's not on imho
<froud> and may cause people to say well why should I bother if this is going to happen
<Burgundavia> I happen to think that the quickguide is a really cool idea and 95% is well written
<froud> and you endup doing it by yourself
<froud> what I am saying is add value and fix, but leave others taste in tact
<froud> there are many things I would like to have rewritten
<froud> but I do  not
<Burgundavia> but what if add value involves removing what I think are redundant words?
<froud> there are many of your things I want to change
<froud> I do not
<Burgundavia> then change them
<froud> so when does it stop
<Burgundavia> I have no emotional attachment to anything I have written
<Burgundavia> at string freeze
<froud> what I am saying is at this stage it is not the time to add your flare
<froud> or opinion to how someting should or should not be said
<Burgundavia> I think there is a fundamental misunderstanding about what I am trying to do
<froud> I understand what you are doing and really I   appreciate the efforttttt
<froud> I just ask for you to be sensitive to others
<Burgundavia> Ok, now I feel like screaming
<Burgundavia> If none of us ever edit each others stuff, then the docs will go nowhere
<froud> as a collective effort this kind of consideration is required I think
<Burgundavia> The evolutionary process of writing works very well
<froud> there is edit and there is rewrite
<froud> After the release please hash it to hearts content
<froud> Burgundavia: you see you came in late
<Burgundavia> I realize that
<froud> and your changes , some of them , are good
<froud> but some of them are not IMHO
<Burgundavia> then revert the ones you don't like
<froud> hard when it is in one patch and besides
<froud> I have other stuff to do
<froud> if we constantly go changing what we wrote it becomes a cycle that is hard to break
<Burgundavia> Yes, we are very close to release. I realize that
<Burgundavia> However, we are NOT yet at string freeze
<froud> because we are working in the bazaar model
<froud> we need to take consideration of the other writers
<Burgundavia> we should not be wasting time that could be valuably spent tweaking docs to make them flow better
<froud> matters of opinion and taste are done at review stages
<Burgundavia> this is the review stage
<froud> not at complete
<Burgundavia> every second of every day is the review stage
<froud> no status="complete"
<Burgundavia> until string freeze
<froud> only changes should be gramatic err, spelling or punctuation 
<Burgundavia> for me status != complete until string freeze
<froud> we are going to find it hard to work with one another then
<froud> as I said before
<froud> there are things other authors have written
<froud> that I myself want to change
<froud> I have not done so
<Burgundavia> I recognize that
<froud> I have limited my edit to spelling, grammar and punctuation
<froud> not my own opinion of what is better
<Burgundavia> I find that attitude very puzzling
<froud> please dont get me wrong, I respect your efforst
<froud> efforts
<Burgundavia> I absolutely respect the other authors, but I expect my stuff to be edited. Some times the words just come, and sometimes they dont
<froud> yes, but if another person explains something, and it can be understood, leave it be at this late stage
<froud> If you feel however that you have something to add, then do so.
<froud> naturally this may require modification of the autors text
<froud> but try make it less intrusive at this late stage
<Burgundavia> But sometimes in order to add to the greater understanding, removal is good
<froud> Yes but you have this approach as blanket
<froud> sometimes what you wanted to say could have been added without deleting what was already written
<froud> sometimes you replace the original authors point with another point that you think to be more important
<froud> consider that a few people have been reding these docs
<froud> reading
<froud> you are comming in at a later stage
<froud> if the text is what it is at this time then perhaps people are happy with it
<froud> sometimes a radical change is required
<froud> for example I misunderstood sudo and you did an excellentfix to it
<froud> and you were right to
<froud> because it was technically incorrect
<froud> so what I am saying is the degree of intrusion depends on the problem
<Burgundavia> Ok, I have just posted something to the list regarding this
<froud> Ok
<Burgundavia> I am interested to see what other people think
<Burgundavia> See, I couldn't disagree with you more on the what to edit points
<froud> Ok
<froud> OK we can agree to disagree
<Burgundavia> For the future, I gather you would like it if I just left anything marked complete alone?
<froud> At late stage in development it is good to limit to spelling, grammar and punctuation
<froud> early stages are much as you describe in your email
<froud> but at some point we must stabilize
<froud> as I said, remember for the pass few months at least five other people have been reviewing
<Burgundavia> see, I would say that there is always room for one more set of eyeballs
<froud> many eyeballs is good
<froud> what action they take at what stage is the issue
<froud> there are a million ways something can be explained
<froud> put 10 people in a room and each will explain it differently
<froud> all are right
<froud> and at a certain stage in the development radical change is great
<Burgundavia> Ok, I see one major issue with lots of late editing: tranlations
<Burgundavia> but i haven't seen anything regarding our contact with the translation people
<froud> luckily in this doc it is not the case
<Burgundavia> what do you mean?
<froud> mean about what
<Burgundavia> luckily in this doc it is not the case
<froud> well we have maily just captured the main screen
<froud> in startup state
<froud> but in some docs a specific state can complicate issues
<Burgundavia> from what I understand of other places, after string freeze, the translators kick into high gear
<froud> yes, but an png does not involve a string change
<Burgundavia> I am referring more to lots of changes to the text
<froud> yes, but they will translate what there is. 10 words or 100
<Burgundavia> I understand your issues with late changes. I just don't see them as such a huge issue. I see translation as a far bigger one
<froud> the only way to improve the translation process is to apply Simplified English
<froud> by you dont want to go there
<froud> unless you have a good team
<Burgundavia> I didn't say I did
<Burgundavia> What I did say was that a shorter words tends to be easier to translate
<Burgundavia> and so does a shorter sentence
<froud> When writing it is better to concerntrate on clarity
<froud> not what will the translator have to do
<froud> Translation is only made easier by using simplified english
<froud> what makes translation hard is grammar
<Burgundavia> but I think, IMHO, that that fails to look at the bigger picture of Linux as mulit-lingual. You want to look at both
<froud> No you want to focus on your audience
<Burgundavia> which is multi-lingual
<froud> tranlations manages just fine
<Burgundavia> I see the ubuntu audience as multi-lingual mostly non-techy people
<froud> The language is not the object
<froud> the audience is
<froud> how translations does it is thier concern
<froud> and to date I see they do a good job
<froud> the translation process is largely automated
<froud> it's just the grammar that needs human checking
<froud> altough, over time, translation memories do get very accurate
<froud> they are not perfect
<froud> in every instance
<Burgundavia> No, we need to facilitate them, by simplifying our language (by which I also include grammar).
<Burgundavia> Also simpler language helps our target audience of non-techies
<froud> Then they only way to help is use Simplified English
<froud> The problem with our audience is that more explaining is required as apposed to less
<froud> the more technical the audience the less you need to say
<froud> As Winston Churchill sais, "Sorry I wrote such a long letter, I did not have enough time to write a short one."
<Burgundavia> But we really don't need to explain how things work. We just need to explain how to do it
<froud> said
<Burgundavia> There are lots of docs for those who need to know things work
<froud> The idea behind quick guide was to say what things are
<Burgundavia> insert how before things in my last statment
<froud> in some places authors add ideas how they may be used
<froud> Anyway this is going off topic
<Burgundavia> yes
<froud> btw. I do like the fact that together we bring bradth of perfective to the team
<froud> breadth
<froud> we may not agree but at least there is a good side
<froud> :-)
<froud> IMHO
<froud> we are both over powering types
<froud> we say what we think and feel
<froud> and that is a good thing to some extent
<froud> so please know that I do respect and appreciate the effort you are putting in and the ideas you are raising
<Burgundavia> It is good to have someone to check me sometimes
<froud> likewise ;-)
<froud> and that is the strength of open-source
<Burgundavia> You come from the traditional way of writing docs, which can be a very good thing
<Burgundavia> I come from the rough and tumble, every edits everything, WP
<froud> what is the traditional way :-)
<Burgundavia> Big monolithic docs
<froud> GNOME once worked like that
<Burgundavia> Well organized
<froud> not really
<Burgundavia> With things like cutoff dates and the like
<Burgundavia> I say work until the very last minute
<froud> Well once GNOME was a free for all and it was a mess
<froud> I must go there is a GNOME party tonight and I am already late
<froud> nice chatting
<Burgundavia> free for all edit != free for all organization
<Burgundavia> hmm
<Burgundavia> sleepy
<Burgundavia> is 7am and I haven't slept yet
<froud> yeah you must be dead
<froud> b c'ing ya
<Burgundavia> indeed
<Burgundavia> hey
<Kinnison> Burgundavia: GO. TO. BED.
<mdke_school> hi
<mdke_school> hi kinnison
<mdke_school> i haven't met you yet
<mdke_school> my name's matt
* Kinnison is Daniel
<mdke_school> yeah i saw
<mdke_school> sorry to have moved your wiki ;p
<Kinnison> hmm?
<mdke_school> i reparented your wiki
<Burgundavia> Kinnison: but in bed you get no hacking done
<mdke_school> hope you don't mind
<mdke_school> Burgundavia, sleeeeeep
<Kinnison> Burgundavia: go to bed; or I'll take you there myself and you won't enjoy that
<Kinnison> mdke_school: Not at all
<mdke_school> :)
<mdke_school> kinky
<Burgundavia> hey, I only said I would be the cameraman
<Kinnison> Burgundavia: exactly :-(
<Burgundavia> ah poor you
<Burgundavia> doesn't look like I am coming to aussieland
<Kinnison> bah
<Burgundavia> unless you can convince your employer otherwise
* Kinnison glances to his right
<Kinnison> doubt it
<Burgundavia> I haven't done enough for Ubuntu due to extended non-internetness
* Kinnison nods
<Burgundavia> are you in London right now?
<Kinnison> yah
<mdke_school> yay for london
<mdke_school> london is great
<Burgundavia> matt, where are you?
<mdke_school> at school in holborn, london
<Burgundavia> ah
<mdke_school> i read your discussion about editing docs
<mdke_school> tricky question
<Burgundavia> which of many?
<Burgundavia> the recent one?
<Burgundavia> I seem to exist currently to challenge people
<mdke_school> lol
<mdke_school> discussions are good
<mdke_school> as Mill would have said
<mdke_school> he might have put it even better actually
<Burgundavia> Kinnison can vouch for the fact that I am not stark raving mad in person
<Burgundavia> Mill?
<mdke_school> the philosopher guy
<mdke_school> anyway, yes, the recent one
<Burgundavia> John Stuart Mill (1806-1873)
<Burgundavia> this one
<Burgundavia> ?
<Kinnison> Burgundavia: you're not?
<Burgundavia> Kinnison: HEY!
<Kinnison> Burgundavia: did you send a stand-in to the ubuntu conference?
<Burgundavia> I expected support!
<Kinnison> Burgundavia: You only want to be the cameraman and you expect support?
<Kinnison> pah
<mdke_school> ok i have to go do some work
<mdke_school> back later
<Kinnison> cya
<Burgundavia> alright, I go sleep now
<abelli> allo
<abelli> how can i htmlize a man page?
<abelli> enrico: can you help?
<abelli> how can i htmlize a man page?
<enrico> abelli: something like groff -man -Thtml
<abelli> enrico: unbelievable as ever.
<abelli> grazie
#ubuntu-doc 2006-03-13
<LaserJock> It would be cool if we had a style guide validator script :-)
<robotgeek> phew, had a blast fixing Package Manager (Adept) to Adept (Package Manager)
<robotgeek> luckily, i wrote a script in python
<Burgundavia> what is the window title?
<Burgundavia> ie, what does it say on the menus?
<robotgeek> well, the default dapper has Adept (Package Manager), but i moved my .kde folder from breezy, so i had Package Manager (Adept)
<robotgeek> i did not realise it till yesterday
<corey_> salut jsgotangco
<jsgotangco> salut
<LaserJock> hi jsgotangco and Burgundavia 
<LaserJock> hi Madpilot 
<Madpilot> hi LaserJock 
<LaserJock> how's it going?
<Madpilot> good
<Madpilot> we've got prettier docs than we had yesterday - cool banners on them
<LaserJock> yeah
<LaserJock> prettier docs are always nice to have
<Madpilot> we've got a hardcore grammar geek on the list now too - good :P
<kgoetz> hi all :)
<LaserJock> hi kgoetz 
<kgoetz> hi LaserJock
<trappist> am I the only word nazi on the list?
<LaserJock> Madpilot: yeah, except I'd like to turn him into a script ;-)
<Madpilot> LaserJock, did you see one of robotgeek's emails, he mentioned using aspell for spellchecking our xml docs - I hadn't thought that was possible
<trappist> hey I asked earlier but nobody responded - how about replacing unicode punctuation with html entities in html docs?
<Kamping_Kaiser> Madpilot: i tried, but it asks for every tag - he must have a custom dict
<LaserJock> I've used ispell/aspeel before with vim but I didn't know you could set the tag stuff
<Madpilot> trappist, that would depend on the scripts used to build the HTML from our source XML/DocBook
<Madpilot> Kamping_Kaiser, yeah, I've been meaning to ask on-list for more details about robotgeek's aspell trick
<trappist> Madpilot: hrm.  I was looking at the source.  lemme refer to my original comments real quick so I can know what I'm talking about...
<trappist> ubuntu/quicktour/quicktour.html
<trappist> what's that built from?
<trappist> nm, I see it
<Madpilot> nothing, AFAIK, it's always just been HTML
<trappist> there's a quicktour.xml in ubuntu/quicktour/C
<trappist> with the unicode punctuation
<Madpilot> ah, so there is - had no idea :P
<robotgeek> hey Madpilot 
<Madpilot> hi robotgeek 
<robotgeek> aspell --mode=sgml --rem-sgml-skip="<screen>" -c add-applications.xml 
<robotgeek> Madpilot: ^^
<Kamping_Kaiser> hi robotgeek (brb :D)
<Madpilot> thanks, noted
<robotgeek> Madpilot: that's straight outta aspell --help :)
<Madpilot> heh - servers me right for never really looking :P
<Madpilot> *serves, rather
<robotgeek> Madpilot: i looked it up for some other thing, really. for tex stuff, about 3 months ago
<jsgotangco> robotgeek, are you sanskrit-savvy?
<robotgeek> jsgotangco: unfortunately no
<robotgeek> jsgotangco: i can read, i think. i just would not know what it means
* jsgotangco is trying to look for cool words for a brand
<robotgeek> jsgotangco: hmm, i can refer you to an online dictionray
<robotgeek> i would google for it anyways, lol
<Kamping_Kaiser> hi robotgeek
<robotgeek> hey Kamping_Kaiser 
<robotgeek> wb
<Kamping_Kaiser> ty.
<Madpilot> we're supposed to be using en_US for our stuff, right?
<Burgundavia> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DapperUbuntuAppInstaller <-- sweet
<Madpilot> hi Burgundavia 
<robotgeek> Burgundavia: it's almost empty?
<Burgundavia> no, look at what they are doing
<robotgeek> i was looking for shiny screenshots :P
<Madpilot> robotgeek, do you know if there's a way to force aspell to use a different locale? I run en_CA, it's trying to "correct" the en_US spellings in our docs
<jsgotangco> its just an entry for -ugly
<jsgotangco> but still a big leap with regrads to easy install of restricted formats
<robotgeek> Madpilot: aspell --help | less, look under Available Dictionaries
<Madpilot> thanks - in the middle of running it now, faster to just ask here :P
<robotgeek> Madpilot: hmm, i just got there and look :P
<Kamping_Kaiser> Madpilot: we use "C" don't we (aka en_US afaik)
<robotgeek> Kamping_Kaiser: yes
<robotgeek> Kamping_Kaiser: are you going to translate to en_au, mate ;)
<Kamping_Kaiser> robotgeek: don't tempt me ;)
<Madpilot> How to translate to en_CA: add "eh?" to the end of ~30% of all sentences. :P
<Burgundavia> jsgotangco: I wonder why just ugly
<Kamping_Kaiser> lol Madpilot
<Kamping_Kaiser> mate :p
<robotgeek> wow..www.python.org underwent a huge transformation
<robotgeek> the documentation still sucks though
<robotgeek> Madpilot: commit sprint, i see
<Madpilot> committing two files counts as a sprint? :P
<robotgeek> i've committed two also :)
<Kamping_Kaiser> ah, so that's where all that spam comes from :P
<Madpilot> trappist, are you Rocco?
<robotgeek> Madpilot: yes, Rocco is trappist 
<Madpilot> thought so
<jsgotangco> nice patches
<robotgeek> yup. 
<jsgotangco> Burgundavia, ping?
<Burgundavia> jsgotangco: pong
<jsgotangco> Burgundavia, do you know any good browser turn-based games?
<Burgundavia> I play UrbanDead
<Burgundavia> kind of fun, zombie game
<jsgotangco> url?
<Burgundavia> urbandead.com
<Burgundavia> why do you ask?
<jsgotangco> its for work
<Burgundavia> ah, there are lots out there
<Burgundavia> Earth 2025 was one a played a very long time ago. There is also a space merchant one that is quite good
<Burgundavia> There are a few medieval/fantasy ones I have dabbled in over the years
<jsgotangco> i wonder if there is something open source
<Burgundavia> bryce harrington is working on mint
<jsgotangco> ?
<Burgundavia> http://endarchy.org/
<Burgundavia> don't think it is playable
<Burgundavia> the idea was to create a game to showcase SVG in the browser
<jsgotangco> interesting
<jsgotangco> i dont see an svg
<jsgotangco> heh
<Burgundavia> development is stalled however
<jsgotangco> i'll look into this
<Burgundavia> is your company looking to find an open source to work on?
<jsgotangco> there was a concept by the art team
<jsgotangco> but then, they're art people
<jsgotangco> :)
<jsgotangco> i want to check a framework
<jsgotangco> and base on it if its workable
<Burgundavia> there is also some concept are on the enarchy server. ping bryce
<jsgotangco> the codebase for Mint is nowhere to be found though
<Burgundavia> there is a development mailing list
<mdke> morning
<Burgundavia> morning mdke
<jsgotangco> interesting
<jsgotangco> ...
<Burgundavia> google for mint-devel
<jsgotangco> i could not connect to his website
<Burgundavia> http://lists.outflux.net/mailman/listinfo/mint-devel
<Burgundavia> very cool, someone has worked out pdf upstream
<Madpilot> pdf upstream for what?
<mdke> for the gnome docs
<Burgundavia> automatic generation of pdf from docbook
<mdke> Burgundavia, it's more a question of "how to install java" than "how to build pdf", that part is easy
<jsgotangco> yeah
<mdke> nice backgrounds though
<Burgundavia> ick, java
<jsgotangco> it works
<Burgundavia> so does windows, doesn't mean it good
<jsgotangco> its what we have for now so bear with it
<jsgotangco> heh
<jsgotangco> until we have a free tolchain
<jsgotangco> Burgundavia, mdke sure makes a fine doc leader eh?
<jsgotangco> :)
<Burgundavia> sounds good to me
<Burgundavia> is there some reason why you said that? (confused)
<rob> jsgotangco, you've been giving a bit of mdke love lately :)
<jsgotangco> none at all i was waiting for an mdke reaction heh
* mdke slaps js 
<mdke> damn
<mdke> cheeky bugger
<Madpilot> heh
<mdke> nice work on the DG, Madpilot 
<mdke> cool spellchecker thing
<Madpilot> it's robotgeek's trick, it was in one of his commit comments, I think
<mdke> i haven't seen any of your comment questions, what is on your mind?
<Madpilot> it's also built right into Bluefish, I've just realized :P
<Madpilot> in our "how to install a .deb", there's no mention of the graphical deb installer?
<Madpilot> or is that the 'just double-click on it' part? (need to fire up flight4 and find a .deb to install, obviously)
<mdke> yes, it's the double click on it part
<mdke> flight 4 doesn't have it in, but it will be working for dapper
<Madpilot> OK
<Madpilot> we still need a plain-English way of describing "spatial mode"
<mdke> true
<Madpilot> one that doesn't offend the folks who actually like that mode :P
<Madpilot> most of the rest of the comments in UDG are about Dapper's possible changes in menu layout, so they'll have to wait a bit longer
<mdke> oh right
<mdke> what changes?
<Madpilot> some of the utilities we mention have moved, I think - the System Tools menu is gone in Dapper, AFAIK
<mdke> ok
<mdke> we should use the menu entities to manage those things
<mdke> &terminal; etc
<Madpilot> yeah - I need to figure out how that stuff works, but it makes a lot of sense
<mdke> it's pretty easy, see ubuntu/libs/gnome-menus.ent for the list of them
<mdke> if you need to add one, make an entry there, and create the corresponding xml file by copying one of the existing ones :)
<Madpilot> ah, OK - entry in gnome-menus-C.ent, and a new xml file in ubuntu/menus/C - that makes sense
* mdke copies some stuff about spatial mode from the gnome docs
<mdke> Madpilot, i've committed the spatial thing, tell me what you think
<Madpilot> yeah, that works, explains both modes
<mdke> hmm two weeks before doc freeze
<Madpilot> yeah - I think we're in good shape, though
<mdke> me too
<Madpilot> I'd like to add entries for the GIMP & Inkscape to Common Tasks, but they'll be short - "<app> can do <several cool things> and is on the menu <here>"
<mdke> ok
<mdke> inkscape comes up in gnome-office, and gimp is a dependency too, although I haven't mentioned it
<mdke> you could deal with it there, or elsewhere if you prefer
<Madpilot> so gnome-office is another big meta-package?
<mdke> yes, I've written about it in common tasks/office
<mdke> not a lot though
<Madpilot> yeah
<Madpilot> the GIMP is in by default, AFAIK - don't think Inkscape is
<mdke> that's right
<Madpilot> anyway, I'll think about that tomorrow - need sleep.
<Madpilot> later, mdke 
<mdke> night
<jsgotangco> heh nice what i see on gnome-doc list
<jsgotangco> it means our toolchain works
<Burgwork> morning all
<highvoltage> morning Mr Burger
<highvoltage> Burgwork: did you know, one of the big newpapers in South Africa is called "Die Burger" ?
<mdke> hi Burgwork 
<Burgwork> that means, The Citizen
<Burgwork> oh, wait, sorry highvoltage 
<Burgwork> I read LaserJock for some reason
<highvoltage> no, it does, you're right :)
<highvoltage> hi mdke
<mdke> yo
<Burgwork> salut mdke 
<Kamping_Kaiser> hi folks
<Burgwork> highvoltage, do you speak Afrikaans?
<highvoltage> Burgwork: yep, my first language
<Burgwork> i have great grandad or something that was president of one of the boer repulics
<Burgwork> republics, even
<highvoltage> weird :)
<glatzor> any gnome-app-install or update-manager documentation guys arround?
<LaserJock> hmm, might be some
<LaserJock> do you have a question/suggestion about it?
<glatzor> It is about the used terminology. I am doing a string review.
<LaserJock> ah, you might be better off emailing the ubuntu-doc list
<glatzor> i will try later again. so bye LaserJock
<Burgwork> mdke, they actually gave you upload rights?
<LaserJock> Burgwork: I think it was just because he had the changelog entry
<Burgwork> likely, but I wondered if they were loosing their minds ;)
<LaserJock> naw, they just decided to give the doc team members core-dev status ;-)
<Burgwork> really?
* Burgwork goes to upload gnome-session to revert to upstream's logout dialog
<LaserJock> good luck
<highvoltage> bye!
<mdke> Burgwork, yeah what LaserJock said
<mdke> does the latest docs package work alright?
<LaserJock> are their any newer iso's than Flight4 that are working
<trappist> I thought we had a Flight5 now
<mdke> dailies maybe
<LaserJock> I'd like to install dapper something in OSX but Flight4 didn't work
* mdke tries the new docs package
<mdke> i changed the browser homepage a bit, it seems to work here
<LaserJock> if I had dapper at the moment I'd test it :(
<trappist> if you guys have a few minutes, I wonder if you have any input on my recent posts to the list
<mdke> trappist, ok. on the server guide point, go ahead and make patches for the commas: the main server guide maintainer isn't a native english speaker so corrections are fine
<trappist> mdke: yeah I've been doing all kinds of comma stuff.  My point there was that maybe the styleguide should get a clarification.
<mdke> trappist, ok, i have no problem with that
<LaserJock> having a style guide that people use is probably the other issue
<mdke> indeed
<mdke> but grammatical errors will always be present
<mdke> review is good
<trappist> yeah, it's actually kinda hard to find.  I don't think there's a link to it from our team page.
<trappist> I find myself referring to the friggin xml because I can't remember where it is online.
<Burgwork> UI freeze is tomorrow
<mdke> trappist, doc.ubuntu.com
<mdke> Burgwork, *nod*, I'm hoping seb will get to my yelp color patch :/
<mdke> trappist, what were the other ones?
<mdke> personal pronouns...
<mdke> i have no view. I actually have no problem with "They" but I avoid using personal pronouns at all if possible
<LaserJock> "they" seems better than "he/she" which is what a lot of people here do
<Burgwork> why not just rewrite to say "you"?
<trappist> well in this case, for example, the party in question is definitely in the third person, and I think any attempt to make it otherwise will only make things uglier.
<trappist> anyway I think we need a policy for it, and I vote for 'he'.  Then for 'she', and I'd take 'he/she' before I'd be ok with 'they'.
<mdke> he is fine
<mdke> hey Burgwork did you see our new sexy html?
<mdke> file:///usr/share/ubuntu-docs/html/desktopguide/C/index.html
<Burgwork> on doc?
<mdke> also on doc, yeah
<mdke> -> bed
<robotgeek> mdke: typo alert in common-task.xml, openoffice.org section, "suit" should be suite
#ubuntu-doc 2006-03-14
<trappist> robotgeek: I just submitted a patch for it, thanks
<robotgeek> trappist: thanks, i will wait till someone who works on UDG comits it
<Burgwork> robotgeek, no patch is too small
<Burgwork> robotgeek, don't you have upload rights now? (I am so behind on who does and doesn't)
<robotgeek> Burgwork: i have commit rights
<trappist> mmm... commit rights...
<robotgeek> if i commit something there, and they don't svn up before working, mess will ensue for them
<trappist> not usually
<trappist> svn is pretty slick about merging changes
<Burgwork> robotgeek, that is there problem, not yours
<robotgeek> Burgwork: heh
<Burgwork> s/their/there
<Burgwork> hmm, ok. I can type and write English, honest!
* trappist &
<robotgeek> trappist: committed, thanks
<Madpilot> hi all
<LaserJock> wow, we seem to be on a grammer/spelling blitz. 
<LaserJock> maybe the status reports would be good for this
<LaserJock> who did the installation guides?
<Madpilot> no idea - but the grammar/spelling tear is needed :P
<LaserJock> I agree, but it might be a waste of effort to do a lot of work on docs/sections that are still in flux
<robotgeek> i swear the spelling nazi is aspell
<LaserJock> probably, but the grammar is a killer ;-)
<Madpilot> Bluefish actually has aspell built right in, with a useful little GUI and everything - I only found it last night
<LaserJock> I have a nice key mapping in vim for it
<robotgeek> LaserJock: care to share?
<LaserJock> robotgeek: map <Leader>as <Esc>:!aspell -c --dont-backup "%"<CR>:e! "%"<CR><CR> 
<LaserJock> is what I have now for aspell
<robotgeek> LaserJock: okay, the leader thing confuses me, how do i use it ;P
<LaserJock> it just uses whatever your leader is, usually \
<LaserJock> but you can change that
<LaserJock> so to spell check I do "\as"
<robotgeek> thanks...figured it out 
<robotgeek> too many things to remember for a text editor :P
<robotgeek> LaserJock: nice mapping , it woeks
<LaserJock> well, that was my biggest frustration with vim
<robotgeek> works, i might now do my xml filetype thing with this
<LaserJock> yeah
<LaserJock> I was going to do that
<robotgeek> well, maybe later on. i gotta finish some kdg stuff
<LaserJock> how close is it to being finished do you think?
<robotgeek> well, i think it's almost done. but it never is
<robotgeek> only 3 sections with help needed (mostly need verification) 
<robotgeek> the rest are all review
<robotgeek> with about 10 in progress
<LaserJock> I don't have any that are done :(
<robotgeek> I did not know there was a www.kubuntuforums.net
<LaserJock> crimsun_: I don't suppose you've had a chance to look at the packaging guide yet?
<crimsun_> LaserJock: no progress since last week
<crimsun_> I'm working on some alsa fixes to push to benC, will see if I can work some doc changes in tonight before I head to bed
<robotgeek> hey Burgwork 
<robotgeek> hey Burgundavia rather
<LaserJock> crimsun: np, I can understand trying to get fixes in ASAP
<robotgeek> mdke: did you know there was a www.kubuntuforums.net ?
<LaserJock> robotgeek: looks pretty new
<robotgeek> LaserJock: hmm, i am getting a better response there, actually :)
<LaserJock> robotgeek: for the KDG?
<robotgeek> yup
<Burgundavia> salut robotgeek
<robotgeek> i am wondering if i should use wiki.ubuntu.com or wiki.kubuntu.com
<robotgeek> they are the same site, the wiki.kubuntu.com is prettier. but it does give a nasty certificate error
<Burgundavia> robotgeek: can you file a rt bug about that?
<Burgundavia> we might be able to get that fixed before release
<robotgeek> lemme check if it happens again, need to clear cache and stuff
<robotgeek> the name on the security certificate is invalid or does not match the name of the site
<robotgeek> Burgundavia: should i file a bug for that message? what's a rt?
<Burgundavia> robotgeek: rt is a ticket tracker
<robotgeek> Burgundavia: happens even for www.launchpad.net, ;P
<robotgeek> Burgundavia: any idea on how to file one, i am lost really
<Burgundavia> robotgeek: you need to email rt-admin@canonical.com I believe
<robotgeek> Burgundavia: hmm, okay. will do
<robotgeek> howdy bhuvan 
<bhuvan> hello robotgeek
<Burgundavia> bhuvan: long time no see
<Burgundavia> highvoltage: are you going to make me happy and package willow?
<highvoltage> Burgundavia: it's not packaged yet?
<Burgundavia> highvoltage: afaik, not
<highvoltage> hmmm... seems not
<highvoltage> i'll ask ogra, afaik it's going to be in dapper edubuntu, which means that it's got to be packaged somewhere.
<highvoltage> perhaps it was dapper+1, i'm not sure
<Burgundavia> he said dapper+1
<highvoltage> but if it's not packaged, i'll certainly look into it, might be something fun to do over the weekend :)
<Madpilot> what's willow?
<Burgundavia> content filtering
<Burgundavia> keep da kiddie from lookin at daddies pr0n
<Madpilot> for depriving all the kids of their daily porn dose?
<highvoltage> Madpilot: type willow proxy in your firefox address field and press enter
* robotgeek sees bounty on lp
<highvoltage> ah, here is the url: http://www.digitallumber.net/software/willow/
<Madpilot> interesting, it comes with it's own stash of p0rn :P
<Burgundavia> I had a great conversation with SILC about Ubuntu and Edubuntu
<highvoltage> on SILC or with SILC?
<Madpilot> Burgundavia, that was just this afternoon, right? Went well, then?
<Madpilot> http://silc.ca/
<Burgundavia> she was thrilled that I showed up, as they didn't have an Ubuntu person they could easily tap
<Burgundavia> still waiting to hear back from ReStore. Might have to call them tomorrow
<Madpilot> so what're silc planning with Ubuntu?
<Burgundavia> it is going to be their platform of choice to recommend to partners to deploy
<Burgundavia> ie: No Windows
<Madpilot> very cool
<Burgundavia> mostly they are targeting groups that need help with the digital divide
<Burgundavia> this includes Natives, urban poor, prostitutes, adult illiterate, etc.
<robotgeek> Burgundavia: sent off mail to rt-admin
<bhuvan> Burgundavia, i use to come online often.. but may not speak much :)
<Burgundavia> robotgeek: cheers
<Burgundavia> Madpilot: thanks for BasicCommands
<Madpilot> Burgundavia, glad you like it  :P
<Madpilot> you using it for yourself, or were you showing it to the SILC folks?
<Burgundavia> Appendix A of the Ubuntu book is going to borrow heavily for that and linuxcommand.org
<Madpilot> guess we should get the wiki license sorted out, then...
<Burgundavia> I just bought a rather expensive router cause the cheap one was caused me grief
<Madpilot> so, if I'm adding sections on GIMP & Inkscape to the UDG, should I stuff them in Common Task's Office section, or create a new Graphics section in Common Tasks?
<robotgeek> Madpilot: graphics section sounds better
<robotgeek> and i think makes it easier to find
<Burgundavia> for the UDG, can we remove or move the gnome office stuff?
<Madpilot> Burgundavia, the Gnome Office stuff is mdke's baby - ask him about it
<Madpilot> the gnome-office meta-package is large - if people just want Dia or something, it's a bit much
<Burgundavia> better to break it out and talk about each program, where they are not duplicative
<Madpilot> Burgundavia, that's what we had - at least for Dia & Planner - until a few days ago, when mdke__ decided to mention the entire gnome-office package
<Burgundavia> ah, I see
<Madpilot> the GIMP is still in Dapper by default, right?
<crimsun_> yes
<Madpilot> thanks
<Burgundavia> there would be screams over that one
<Madpilot> yanking it, you mean? I can imagine :P
<Burgundavia> I would like to see Inkscape added for dapper+1
<highvoltage> Burgundavia: i think the cd space is a problem there :(
<Burgundavia> highvoltage: not if the windows copy of OO.o was chucked
<Madpilot> so, I've got the GIMP, Inkscape & Blender - anything else I should mention?
<Burgundavia> pornget?
<Madpilot> um, probably not. :P
<robotgeek> Madpilot: comeone
<robotgeek> err, i meant come on 
<Madpilot> anyone?
<Burgundavia> you people are boring
<Burgundavia> glabels?
<Burgundavia> much nicer lable program that openoffice
<Madpilot> I'd say gLabels belongs in Office apps, not really Graphics - but I might add it later
<Burgundavia> sure, missed what part you were working on
<trappist> I started going through the serverguide today, correcting mistakes, cleaning some things up and filling in some missing sections, especially about iptables and firewalls.  it'll probably take a good week.  should I do something like send a patch a day as I go through it, or wait until I'm done and send the uberpatch to the list?
<Burgundavia> f-spote?
<robotgeek> trappist: send it daily
<Madpilot> trappist, patch-a-day, or per major section - less risk of edit conflicts from other ppls work
<Burgundavia> f-spot
<trappist> Madpilot: yeah that was my concern.  I'll do that then.
<Madpilot> Burgundavia, was thinking of gThumb, but only because I use it myself
<Burgundavia> smaller patche sare much better
<Burgundavia> Madpilot: gthumb is installed, so I guess use that
<trappist> ooh ooh imagemagick!
<Madpilot> Burgundavia, so eog is gone from Dapper?
<Burgundavia> trappist: commandline crap
<Burgundavia> Madpilot: no, just hidden from the menus
<Madpilot> Burgundavia, but gthumb is the default now, anyway?
<Burgundavia> nope
<trappist> Burgundavia: there's a gui interface, but it sucks.  and yeah it's command line, but it's anything but crap.  I dunno what I'd do without it.
<trappist> s/gui interface/gui/
<Burgundavia> trappist: this is a desktop guide
<trappist> right.
<Madpilot> Burgundavia, might do a gThumb entry later, going to commit what I've got so far
<Madpilot> hmm.. does "svn commit" not send newly-created files up?
<Burgundavia> you need to svn add them first
<Burgundavia> 'svn add'
<Madpilot> thanks
<Madpilot> does svn add take comments like commit does?
<Burgundavia> no, svn add the files
<Madpilot> nevermind, I see it doesn't
<Burgundavia> then svn committ again
<Madpilot> I think that's got everything
<Madpilot> svn add isn't as intelligent as svn commit, is it?
<Burgundavia> they are different commands
<trappist> add just puts a file/directory under version control
<Burgundavia> add tells you local copy about the programs, you still need to upload the files
<Madpilot> no way to just say "add anything in directory <foo> that isn't already under svn control", though 
<Burgundavia> you might be able to add teh directory
<trappist> I think you can svn add foo/* and it'll skip everything that's already under version control
<Burgundavia> and it would sort out what is needed and what is not
<trappist> shell expansion should take care of it even if svn doesn't
<Madpilot> Burgundavia, I tried just the directory, it failed with an error - didn't try trappist's /* though
<robotgeek> Madpilot: if that doesn't work, i gotta nice bash command :)
<Madpilot> heh
<robotgeek> alias svntemp='svn status | grep "?" | sed "s/\?[ ] *//g"'
<Madpilot> can someone svn up, and try to run UDG in Yelp? It'll yell if I've forgotten any of the new menu files
<robotgeek> for i in `svntemp`; do svn add $i; done
<robotgeek> Madpilot: http://paste.ubuntu-nl.org/9895
<Madpilot> robotgeek, svn up again & try it, those should all be there now (I hope)
<Madpilot> rev.  2557
<robotgeek> Madpilot: yep, it validates now
<Madpilot> good
<Madpilot> hi rob
<rob> hi Madpilot 
<rob> some people on the list need to relax a little methinks
<robotgeek> rob: heh
<robotgeek> i did see that reply
<Burgundavia> have you lot seen the new help menu in Dapper?
<Burgundavia> it is sweet
<trappist> if somebody could hack bash-completion to ignore .svn directories my life would be so much easier
<robotgeek> trappist: hmm, interesting 
<rob> trappist, you didn't take that the wrong way, did you?
<trappist> rob: not at all, but you did misspell compliment ;)
<rob> heh, stupid thunderbird spellcheck!
<trappist> I have some pretty good spellcheck stories.
<trappist> anyway I'm stoked to be involved in a group that actually appreciates spelling and grammar correction.  tough to find online.
<rob> good stuff
<robotgeek> trappist: do you have a nice bash completion set already? 
<trappist> I just get mine from the package.  I tried to hack the svn thing in but I guess my bash foo isn't up to the task.
<robotgeek> trappist: i have some subversion thing in /etc/bash_completeion.d
<trappist> I assume it's for completing svn commands - I'm looking to be able to cd <tab> where there's only one directory, without getting hung up on recognizing the .svn directory
<robotgeek> trappist: hmm, okay. might be tough. let's see
<trappist> it's tough.  or else I'm dumb.
<robotgeek> trappist: i have an alias for kdg and udg, so all i do is cd $udg / cd $kdg
<trappist> robotgeek: you could use your CDPATH environment variable for that
<robotgeek> trappist: i just found cdpath too confusing
<robotgeek> there are not too many directories i browse in, so i have them aliased
<trappist> robotgeek: export CDPATH=/path/to/ubuntu-doc/kubuntu, then cd desk<tab>
<robotgeek> trappist: neat, i will add that in addition to my aliases. sometimes $kdg is faster :)
<trappist> I'd end up doing #<backspace>%<backspace>@<backspace>$kdg every time
<robotgeek> trappist: i don't even look :)
<trappist> I have lots of trouble with those characters.  slows down my programming a lot.  less since I ditched php for ruby, though :)
<robotgeek> trappist: i still do bash, though slowly moving to python
<trappist> after two python projects I've made up my mind to stay away from it.  ruby 4 life and all that.
<Burgundavia> trappist: we are a little python mad around here
<robotgeek> trappist: hmm, cool. i am a hobby programmer
<trappist> Burgundavia: around here as in the doc team, or as in ubuntu in general?
<robotgeek> ubuntu
<trappist> yeah I've noticed that
<robotgeek> docteam hacks around in only xml and makefiles i guess
<trappist> I've come to terms with the fact that I'm going to have to deal with python to make contributions to some of the packages I care about
<trappist> really the only thing that bothers me about it is that whitespace errors really piss me off.
<robotgeek> trappist: okay, i don't see the whitespace
<robotgeek> j/k
* trappist backspaces
<trappist> :)
<robotgeek> vim folding really helps to see the xml structure
<robotgeek> trappist: hmm, one more to commit heh
<robotgeek> trappist: shouldn't it be "as a part of the ubuntu project" vs "as part of the ubuntu project"
<trappist> I don't see a problem with either one
<robotgeek> trappist: okay, i'm lazy
<robotgeek> trappist: Committed as revision 2558.Thanks
<trappist> cool
<mdke__> Madpilot, separate graphics section sounds like it might be doable. Is there enough to put in it?
<Madpilot> mdke__, it's already in - GIMP, Inkscape & Blender so far
<mdke__> Madpilot, great
<Madpilot> might do a gThumb entry too
<mdke__> Burgundavia, what's up with gnome-office?
<trappist> that reminds me.  the firewall stuff needs filling in on the serverguide, and I might be just the guy for that.  I'm thinking something like this: a blurb about iptables, some usage examples, some small howtos on common tasks like flushing your rules, and some links to more complete documentation like iptables-tutorial.frozentux.net.  what do you guys think?
<mdke> trappist, sounds great
<Burgundavia> mdke: I am concerned about duplication
<mdke> of which?
<Burgundavia> open office
<mdke> ??
<Burgundavia> speicifially abiword and gnumeric
<mdke> some people might not like openoffice
<mdke> there are loads of places in the guide where we give them a choice about software
<mdke> that's what its all about, it's not up to us to choose software for them
<Burgundavia> hmm, but I thought we had generally agreed not to talk too much about things which the default install already did, for fear of confustion
<mdke> I didn't hear that. But if it's confusing, that is a bug definitely
<mdke> but the intro talks about openoffice and is quite clear, I think.
<mdke> does anyone know anything about xsl stylesheets?
<trappist> I'll never admit to knowing anything about them
<mdke> haha
<robotgeek> mdke: i just want to add a section on wireless, is it okay to copy stuff from the wiki now?
<Burgundavia> night all
<mdke> robotgeek, don't see why not
<robotgeek> mdke: cool, let see how it goes
<mdke> Madpilot, gparted is in System -> Administration, isn't it?
<mdke> Madpilot, and we now have two entries for menu-editor and alacarte-menu-editor
<Madpilot> mdke, in Breezy gparted is Apps->System Tools->Gparted
<mdke> Madpilot, in dapper it is in System->Administration
<Madpilot> mdke, the alacarte- one is mine, but the info in menu-editor is out of date
<mdke> so let's harmonise those
<Madpilot> mdke, my fault - I didn't ask here before creating that
<mdke> i'll grep around and see which are used
<Madpilot> I actually didn't see the menu-editor.xml file at all - which is why I created alacarte-menu-editor.xml
<mdke> np
<mdke> did you use it anywhere?
<Madpilot> alacarte-menu-editor? It's used in the Alacarte article in config-system.xml
<Madpilot> later all
<trappist> I sent a biggish patch to the list and it's awaiting moderation due to the size.  can somebody let it through?
<robotgeek> trappist: maybe you can resend after gzipping it?
<trappist> good thinkin
<robotgeek> jsgotangaco is the list admin, and he isn't here
<robotgeek> trappist: personal experience :)
<trappist> that got it well under the limit
<trappist> the limit sucks.
<mdke_> over 250 members on the list, large emails would be bad
<trappist> but 40kb?
<robotgeek> trappist: depends on which part of the world you are in
<trappist> I guess I am spoiled with my fat pipe :)
<Burgwork> mdke_, your patch made it
<robotgeek> hmm, finally i think we can get rid of the limewire section
<robotgeek> i wrote up instructions on getting apollon to work with gnutella and fasttrack
<LaserJock> that sounds  good
<robotgeek> i've always hated limewire for it's javaness 
<robotgeek> LaserJock: folding in vim makes it so much easier to deal with xml :)
<trappist> robotgeek: what's your foldmethod
<robotgeek> trappist: i just use syntax
<LaserJock> robotgeek: hmm, haven't tried folding too much
<trappist> robotgeek: :set foldmethod=syntax?
<trappist> doesn't work here
<mdke_> Burgwork, the yelp one? yes
<trappist> I usually use marker
<robotgeek> set fdm=syntax 
<robotgeek> then zM 
<trappist> not doing anything here :/
<robotgeek> trappist: maybe you need to enable it, try zi and then zM
<trappist> nothin
<robotgeek> trappist: hmm, maybe you should have a looksie at my .vimrc?
<trappist> might help
<robotgeek> trappist: http://paste.ubuntu-nl.org/9923
<LaserJock> wow, I did ":set fdm=syntax" and it folded up nice and neat
<trappist> ah, let g:xml_syntax_folding = 1
<trappist> yeah that did it
<robotgeek> yeah, one of those settings :)
<trappist> I keep mine online: http://linuxkungfu.org/files/home/dot_vimrc
<robotgeek> trappist: i have to write a syncing script or lftp cronjob
<trappist> to sync what?
<robotgeek> my .vimrc to my online files
<mdke_> trappist, nice work with the patch. hopefully the serverguide maintainer will get to it soon, don't be discouraged if it isn't applied immediately, we like to leave patches to the maintainer of the specific doc
<robotgeek> i have an older version at http://robotgeek.org/dotfiles/vimrc
<trappist> mdke_: cool, thanks
<trappist> robotgeek: I don't sync mine, because I break my stuff a lot and sometimes it takes me a while to get it fixed.  I like to publish when things are working right :)
<robotgeek> trappist: hmm, yes.
<LaserJock> mdke_: who's working on the serverguide?
<robotgeek> trappist: did you see the nice mapping to disable arrow keys :)
<robotgeek> i used kate like twice, and got my ugly habits back
<mdke_> LaserJock, bhuvan works on it. and bshumate
<trappist> robotgeek: I use my arrow keys and I like em :)
<LaserJock> mdke_: ah, ok
<robotgeek> trappist: you won't like them if you use macros :)
<trappist> mdke_: I'm slowly making my way through the serverguide.  there's a lot of <put something here> type stuff and I was gonna fill in a few things like firewall stuff.  how active are the serverguide maintainers?
<mdke_> trappist, relatively. But its a great idea to add stuff
<mdke_> we have 2 weeks until the freeze, so
<trappist> I mean
<trappist> if I get that stuff to the list, is there a decent chance if it making it in before the freeze?
<mdke_> trappist, 100%
<trappist> ok cool
<mdke_> :)
<LaserJock> mdke_: have we got commit access tied to the LP team yet?
<LaserJock> hmm , I could probably use some work on my .vimrc. I have tons of stuff I don't know the purpose of that I just grabbed from the web
<robotgeek> LaserJock: yes, i do that all the time too. then i break something, and so i have to figure it out
<jjesse> mdke_: thanks for the kind review :)
<trappist> jjesse: and thanks for yours :)
<trappist> <-- rocco
<jjesse> trappist: cool this should make ever\ything look more professional :)
<trappist> jjesse: that's my whole motivation here
<jjesse> a worthy goal
<Burgwork> LaserJock, no
<LaserJock> so I started thinking about dapper+1 the other day, wondering what the doc team will do
<LaserJock> Burgwork: is that in the works or will it be a "eventually" thing?
<Burgwork> LaserJock, eventual
<robotgeek> Burgwork: patch for wireless setcion in Ubuntu Desktop sent
<Burgwork> robotgeek, cool. Excellent.
<robotgeek> just a bunch of wiki links
* robotgeek gets confused on who is working on what all the time 
<LaserJock> I wonder if we could start getting some more advanced user docs in dapper+1
<Burgwork> task focuses docs would be nice
<LaserJock> yeah
<LaserJock> I was thinking of a Python Cookbook, CLI tricks, and Multimedia coolness
<Burgwork> a good python tutorial would be great
<LaserJock> I do too and I think it would be in line with Mark's goals
<LaserJock> although I was more inclined towards a cookbook style doc because we already install Dive Into Python
<Burgwork> dive could be rejigged
<LaserJock> Burgwork: do we usually write of specs for new docs?
<Burgwork> we can
<LaserJock> well, I gotta get Dapper docs finished before I get to into Dapper+1
<Burgwork> I am also looking at even easier docs for dapper+1
<Burgwork> ie, first intro to computers docs
<LaserJock> I have a hard time with those. I just have a difficult time getting into the brain of a non-computer user. Plus I just don't often use my computer they way they do so I just don't know the info very well. :(
<mdke_> jjesse, i didn't do it yet. Hopefully I'll get it done tomorrow. But I told her it would be short because the chapter is so good ;)
<Burgwork> I am involved in a project taht needs exactly that
<LaserJock> so would it be people who haven't used a computer at all?
<Burgwork> yep and those who are really not comfortable with one
<Burgwork> written in teh style of simple.wikipedia.org
<LaserJock> in some ways I would find that easier than the entrenched Windows user docs ;-)
<LaserJock> hmm, simple.wikipedia.org would be good to show my Freshmen chem lab students
<LaserJock> simple.wikipedia.org is pretty cool
<LaserJock> it has some good chemistry info :)
<trappist> there's a guy with multiple nicks from Cam@209.91.114.236 spamming lots of channels with these need to go today 2 laptops, both made by good manufacturers. price is 500$ each for them and include shipping, case and wireless router.  message me if interested on aim at ogd443 or msn at mcsltd2@hotmail.com
<LaserJock> hi theCore 
<LaserJock> trappist: thanks for spamming #ubuntu-doc with it ;-)
<trappist> oh crap I had just joined ##bookmark, thought I was in there
<trappist> now I know why it didn't show up :)
<theCore> hello LaserJock
<robotgeek> hah, one more commit
<theCore> LaserJock: so how the PG is going?
<LaserJock> theCore: oh, well, it's going :/
<LaserJock> theCore: I talked to the author of the packaging guide I was sorta redoing
<LaserJock> theCore: he is going to merge some stuff back in
<LaserJock> theCore: the problem is he doesn't have a lot of time and I don't seem to either.
<theCore> LaserJock: I am not alone then ...
<LaserJock> no
<LaserJock> but I'm hoping if we get enough people with not a lot of time we can equal one person with a lot of time ;-)
<theCore> :)
<theCore> I hope you're right
<trappist> man, crimsun is everywhere
<crimsun> (I have to be)
<trappist> oh.  you do this full time, I guess.
<crimsun> no, in my spare time
<trappist> awesome.
#ubuntu-doc 2006-03-15
<Burgwork> mdke_, ping
<Burgwork> mdke_, unping
<LaserJock> hmm, I didn't know you could unping
<crimsun> sure, you'd just RST
<crimsun> granted, it's not like echo "un"request or anything
<robotgeek> mdke_: ping
<Madpilot> hi all
<robitaille> Hi manicka 
<robitaille> Hi Madpilot 
<manicka> hi :)
<robotgeek> hey all
<Madpilot> The Freeze is Nigh Upon Us! Flee, for we are all doomed! </raving lunatic>
<Madpilot> ;)
<Madpilot> robotgeek, did you add that wireless section to UDG, or should I? (sort of lost track of commits today...)
<robotgeek> Madpilot: yes, i did commit it
<robotgeek> Madpilot: i was not sure if you wanted it there, so i did not commit intially
<Madpilot> ah, there it is. Looks good.
* robotgeek is happy
<robotgeek> otherwise i would have to copy back from you 
<mdke_> robotgeek, pong
<mdke_> Burgwork, unpong
<robotgeek> hey mdke_ 
<mdke_> hiya
<robotgeek> mdke_: now i don't remeber, and i don't have a log
<mdke_> heh
<mdke_> you just came in, said ping, and left
<robotgeek> heh, i'll ping again later
<robotgeek> i'm trying to recover all my mail, i screw my machine up 
<mdke_> word up
<Madpilot> hi mdke_ - I just fixed the menu stuff that I messed up last night
<mdke_> oh cool, I forgot about that
<mdke_> bhuvan, hey dude
<bhuvan> hello mdke_
<mdke_> Madpilot, the gparted menu entry is now "Gnome Partition Editor" fyi
<Madpilot> mdke_, that leads into my next point:
<mdke_> bhuvan, what do you think about removing the gnome-app-install section of the server guide?
<Madpilot> one thing we **must** do before freeze - get some Dapper users to sanity-check the menu entries in UDG...
<bhuvan> both me and brian were in dilemma. we are certain it can be removed
<mdke_> yes indeed
<mdke_> bhuvan, i agree it should be removed
<bhuvan> mdke_, ok. i'll take care
<mdke_> it's gnome-specific
* bhuvan goes to have lunch
<mdke_> buon appetito
<mdke> Madpilot, I've got a dapper install
<Madpilot> mdke, I'm still running Breezy; I'll have a go w/ a Flight4 livecd this weekend, though
<Madpilot> hi Burgundavia 
<mdke> Madpilot, the menu entries might change late-ish, like gparted did yesterday
<Madpilot> mdke, how late is 'late-ish', and what does that mean WRT our string freeze?
<Burgundavia> salut Madpilot
<mdke> Madpilot, next thursday is string freeze so they can't change after that
<mdke> we have a week after that
<Madpilot> OK, I'll leave the menu entries for now, and we can blitz them next week
<mdke> yeah
<mdke> we need to take a look at About Ubuntu :/
<Madpilot> it's still going to be just a web page for Dapper, right?
<mdke> an xml file
<mdke> I think we can just transpose the changes we've made to the about ubuntu section of the desktop guide and move it across
<Madpilot> Just had a look at Breezy's About Ubuntu... Bug Number One: It doesn't say which version of Ubuntu I'm running
<mdke> absolutely
<mdke> although that's fixed now
<Madpilot> yeah, just comparing what's in SVN
<robotgeek> now to figure out how to make gmail will keep the from address as venkatvc@ubuntu.com
<mdke> robotgeek, use an email client!
<robotgeek> mdke: how do i setup the smtp? 
<mdke> you use your isp's smtp?
<mdke> or your own, if you have one
<robotgeek> i use gmail's smtp
<mdke> ok
<mdke> I'm sure that works in a mail client, right?
<robotgeek> yeah, i was seeing if i could make gmail rewrite the from header when i send it from kmail
<robotgeek> that seems possible only in the webinterface
<mdke> get kmail to write the from header
<bhuvan> robotgeek, you can set it in gmail too
<robotgeek> bhuvan: i did set it up in gmail, venkatvc at ubuntu.com is the default
<bhuvan> robotgeek, ok. so, whats your problem ?
<robotgeek> bhuvan: i am actually sending from venkatraghavan at gmail.com using gmail's smtp, i want to find out if there is a method by which i can use gmail's smtp to make it look as it it is from venkatvc at ubuntu.com
<robotgeek> it may not be worth spending too much time on :)
<Madpilot> mdke, suggestion for About Ubuntu - move the "Components" section up so it's second, then Get Help and finally Participate
<robotgeek> anyways, back to work on kdg
* Burgundavia writes the GNOME 2.14 press release
<bhuvan> robotgeek, gmail->Settings->Accounts doesn't help ?
<robotgeek> bhuvan: not if you are not using the gmail interface
<bhuvan> ok
<robotgeek> bhuvan: plus it does put in gmail as the sender, so there's no point :)
<bhuvan> robotgeek: frankly, i dont understand your problem :)
<robotgeek> bhuvan: heh
<robotgeek> nvm, it's a waste of time, really
<bhuvan> robotgeek: all emails i sent as 'bhuvan@ubuntu.com' are sent from gmail web interface
<bhuvan> robotgeek: fine, no problem. leave it
<robotgeek> bhuvan: exactly, the same thing doesn't happen if i use kmail, even if @ubuntu.com address is default
<robotgeek> language help needed: Each release will be supported for 18 months after it's
<robotgeek> release date."
<robotgeek> vs Each release is supported for at least 18 months.
<robotgeek> Kamping_Kaiser: ^^ 
<Madpilot> "is supported" is simpler & has less verbiage
<Kamping_Kaiser> agreed
<robotgeek> i'm going over some suggestions from the kubuntuforums
<Madpilot> I always vote (and try to edit) in the direction of less verbiage :P
<robotgeek> http://kubuntuforums.net/forums/index.php?topic=3946.msg15149#msg15149
<robotgeek> Madpilot: some suggestions there could go into UDG too
<Madpilot> robotgeek, thanks, I'll look into that tomorrow
<robotgeek> Madpilot: cool, very minor for you. a one liner
<Burgundavia> night all
<robotgeek> night bhuvan 
<robotgeek> Burgundavia: err
<robotgeek> mdke: ping
<robotgeek> i saw your planet.ubuntu.com post, and comments are welcome as bugs?
<mdke> robotgeek_zzz, sure, however you prefer
<jsgotangco> hey guys
<Kamping_Kaiser> hi
<jjesse> morning jsgotangco
<jsgotangco> hey!
<trappist> sometimes we have American spellings and sometimes British.  Should I change behaviour to behavior, or vice versa?
<trappist> (just an example)
<Burgwork> we should international, IMHO
<Burgwork> so use behaviour, not behavior
<trappist> aight
* trappist whips out his perl foo
<Burgwork> you might want to raise it on the list first
<trappist> good call
<trappist> done
<trappist> I'll leave it alone until there's some kind of consensus
<Burgwork> arghh!!!
<Burgwork> why are we experimenting with theme AFTER UI freeze????
* Burgwork hulk smashes his table
<LaserJock> poor Burwork
<LaserJock> that's gotta hurt
<mgalvin> hi all, DapperFlight5 is just about all set (i just need to add an OOo screenshot), if anyone has time to review it and be a grammer nazi that would be great, it will be moved to the main site (www.ubuntu.com) soon so it needs to be ready as flight 5 will be released probably today, thanks in advance
<jjesse> mgalvin: what are you trying to say here on DapperFlight5:The new Ubuntulooks theme engine which is based on the very popular Clearlooks theme engine brings
<jjesse> it doesn't read correctly to me for some reason
<mgalvin> just that the ubuntulook theme is not totally new, its based on cleatlooks
<mgalvin> and that the ubuntu improvements include...
<jjesse> hmm maybe i didn't read it right, but it just seeems wrong for some wierd reason?
<mgalvin> jjesse: there is probably to many ideas in that single sentence
<mgalvin> i will reword it
<mgalvin> jjesse: how does that sound?
<robotgeek> trappist: i'm guilt of writing in both
<trappist> mgalvin: what exactly needs to be work-nazi'ed?
<mgalvin> trappist: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DapperFlight5
<trappist> on it
<mgalvin> thanks
<mgalvin> i just added the screenshot numbers so you know
<mdke_> Burgwork, because the theme itself was added after ui freeze :(
<Burgwork> mdke_, indeed. I am not happy
<mdke_> well that's Ubuntu
<mdke_> it happens every cycle
<Burgwork> this is exactly what I spoke about at UBZ
<Burgwork> looks like I will be rasing it in Germany
<mdke_> yes
<Burgwork> again...
<mdke_> not to mention that the new theme sucks balls
<robotgeek> hmm, mdke maybe start using kde. come over to the blue side?
<Burgwork> I feel like sending an email to -devel "How not to shit on your documentation team"
<LaserJock> Burgwork: the next developer meeting is in Germany?
<Burgwork> but that probably wouldn't be useful
<Burgwork> LaserJock, yep
<mdke> Burgwork, it's not so much shitting on us, because it doesn't really affect our work
<mdke> it's just very bad practice to introduce massive changes at the end of the cycle
<mdke> when this means that the changes get no community feedback
<mdke> and are difficult to fix
<mgalvin> hmm, the themes are very easy to switch between, and i think the idea of pushing flight 5 out today is to get that feedback (1 day after the theme was added)
<LaserJock> yeah, but I think the feedback is already pretty negative, I don't think it will take Flight 5 to figure out it sucks ;-)
<mdke> mgalvin, ui freeze was nearly 48 hours ago. it's not easy to get feedback
<mdke> given that nothing can now be changed
<Kyral> Whats the new theme?
<mdke> 4 months ago would have worked
<LaserJock> well, they will probably change it in the next few days, I would guess
<mdke> I can only hope so, the theme is too broken to respect the ui freeze
<mgalvin> Kyral: see it here https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DapperFlight5
<trappist> mgalvin: DapperFlight5 is all fixed up
* Kyral has been thinking about doing a clean reinstall when Dapper is released...
<trappist> I plan to do that
<mgalvin> trappist: thanks!
<Kyral> Somethin' is screwy with my GTK apps
<Kyral> or rather GNOME
<LaserJock> I thought you went to the dark side :)
<Kyral> Why would I use Windows?
<LaserJock> no, KDE
<Kyral> ..
* Kyral sighs
* robotgeek smacKs LaserJock 
<LaserJock> lol
<mgalvin> mdke: true, of course the earlier the better
* mgalvin thinks ubuntulooks looks like a holloween theme :-/
<LaserJock> mgalvin: actually your screenshots look better than my yelp
<jjesse> mgalvin: looks fine now
<mgalvin> jjesse: thanks
<trappist> bleh.  kontact issues holding up my british/american spelling patch.
<robotgeek> mdke: ping. i now remember why i pinged you yesterday
<robotgeek> mdke: basically, the padding left=0 mkaes it very close to the screen edge
<robotgeek> trappist: ^^
<robotgeek> of course, this is better than unclickable links :)
<mdke> robotgeek, he fixed that, iirc
<trappist> yeah I said padding-left=1em;
<robotgeek> mdke: the unclicable links, yes. but now it is too close to the screen edge?
<trappist> where it originally said padding=1em; which was breaking clickability
<robotgeek> http://doc.ubuntu.com/kubuntu/desktopguide-web/C/ch02.html for example
<mdke> hmm
<robotgeek> is it a problem on my screen, or is "Linux Basics" at the bottom too close to the screen
<mdke> oh yeah
* mdke has no ideas at present
<robotgeek> just to let you know that i remembered why i pinged you yesterday
<mdke> cool, thanks
<trappist> that Linux Basics is position: absolute; left: 0px;
<robotgeek> trappist: css guru :)
<trappist> it looks pretty deliberate
<trappist> kmail has decided I don't get to send emails.  /me resorts to mutt to send this patch.
<robotgeek> trappist: better thank deleteing your .kde
<trappist> that would suck.
<robotgeek> trappist: i redownloaded all my mail, and setup new filters yesterday
<robotgeek> i need to move to mutt+procmail+fetchmail solution, but i like kmail too much
<trappist> I was a kmail guy back in the day, then went to mutt for a coupla years, but I came back
<trappist> sent the patch, anyway
<trappist> I like mutt a lot, but it was really just part of a misguided goal to go console for practically everything
<trappist> to prove I was a real man or something
<mdke> thanks for the patch trappist 
<mdke> ignore the xfce docs from now on though :)
<trappist> can do
<mdke> and don't change pot files
<Burgwork> is xubuntu doing docs elsewhere?
<mdke> Burgwork, not that I know of
<mdke> trappist, and, a patch per document if possible too, so each contact person can check & apply
<trappist> at first I just said for file in $(find . -type f ! -whole-name '*/.svn/*'); do perl -pi -e 's/([Bb] )ehaviour/$1ehavior/g' "$file"; done but the results of that sucked.
<trappist> mdke: can do that too
<mdke> trappist, thanks. Would you remail the patch with those things in mind? I'm just mailing the list now
<trappist> sigh.  ok, back to mutt :)
<mdke> sorry
<Burgwork> mdke, sweet, pdf!
<Burgwork> we should be able to munge a good release notes out of the excellent Flight stuff mgalvin has beendoing
<trappist> ok I think I sent it again
<trappist> cool.  I seem to have somehow fixed kmail.
<mdke> Burgwork, the pdfs are pretty rubbish at the moment sadly
<mdke> they aren't styled at all
<sdquinn> hi all again
<sdquinn> meeting in 30min correct?
<mdke> holy crap
<mdke> did you see mark's email?
<sdquinn> saw a bit of it
<sdquinn> on [ubuntu-art] ?
<mdke> thank god
<Burgwork> indeed
<Burgwork> great
<mdke> trappist, thanks for re-diffing
<trappist> np
<trappist> who is this mark shuttleworth bozo talking about delaying dapper?
<jjesse> the guy in charge of ubuntu
<sdquinn> aaaaah
<sdquinn> "I'm writing to propose a six week delay in the release date of Dapper,"
<trappist> I know, kidding ;)
<sdquinn> i missed that part. :(
<trappist> I have mixed feelings about that
<mdke> that would be a good thing. I think we would have the same string freeze for docs though, myself
<trappist> I lean toward delaying it, but I don't think my vote counts yet
<trappist> there's something to be said for the "when it's done" release cycle philosophy, but I don't like the way it works in debian.
<mdke> well there is a good argument that dapper is special in the context of the ubuntu cycles
<trappist> yeah
<mdke> may 6 weeks is a little much
<jjesse> i wonder how they picked 6 weeks?
<jjesse> why not just a month
<trappist> from browsing lists and hanging out on the various channels I get the feeling we've got a really good pace going and that with a little more time we could put out a significantly better release
<LaserJock> so what would that mean for the docs?
<mdke> we'll have to wait an see
<mdke> I would say, string freeze stays the same, more time for translation
<LaserJock> hmm
<mdke> or moves slightly
<mdke> there is a lot of stuff to get translated this time, and the docs are pretty much nearly ready
<LaserJock> except the Packaging Guide
<mdke> haha
<mdke> is it in bad shape?
<LaserJock> I'm getting pretty concerned
<mdke> how come?
<LaserJock> well, one of the problems is I need patches and review from the developer community but they are working hard on developing 
* mdke nods
<LaserJock> I'm not sure what it is going to look like by string freeze
<mdke> well don't worry
<mdke> perfection is impossible
<LaserJock> yeah, but sorta complete would be nice
<mdke> do what you can, no worries. Shall we call on the devs in a more formal way?
<LaserJock> It also looks like the Ubuntu Developer's Reference that Diziet was going to do is deferred
<LaserJock> mdke: not yet, I think most of the devs that would have an interest know, but I can push a little harder
<LaserJock> some of it is me just setting aside a block of time to work on it
<mdke> sure
<LaserJock> my research advisor is pushing me a bit at the moment
<trappist> I'll do what I can with the packaging guide, but having never made a .deb it'll probably be all word nazi stuff.
<LaserJock> anyway, it is pretty much my top priority right now so I hope to get some major work done soon
<mdke> yay, don't let it stress ya though
<LaserJock> trappist: well, I'll call on your expertise after we have stuff pretty set
<trappist> LaserJock: probably a good idea
<trappist> anything anybody can tell me about what needs the iron grammar fist will be helpful
<LaserJock> trappist: I wouldn't want to waste your time on something that I'm just going to screw up ;-)
<trappist> right :)
<LaserJock> mdke: well I need the stress to get motivated. Unfortunately, university has taught me some bad habits.
<mdke> ok, stress out!
<LaserJock> mdke: but I have been totally committed to this doc and I hate to have it not be in Dapper
<trappist> LaserJock: maybe we'll all luck out and get another six weeks
<mdke> you can do it :)
<LaserJock> mdke: will the packaging guide be translated? how would that work?
<mdke> LaserJock, if it's done in time, sure. It will get translated in rosetta
<LaserJock> I don't know anything about translations so sorry for the stupid questions. Where will the translations go? Are they a part of the ubuntu-docs package?
<mdke> yes
<mdke> questions are fine :)
<Burgwork> I think translations become part of the language packs
<LaserJock> so the translations for all the packages for a given language that is translated are put in the lang pack. Those must be huge.
<mdke> Burgwork, no, they are in ubuntu-docs
<Burgwork> oh
<mdke> Burgwork, http://doc.ubuntu.com/test
<mdke> we need to sort out proper styling for the admonitions, most importantly of all
<mdke> I might try and steal some of brent's stuff for GNOME
<mdke> then add some brown or something
<mdke> -> bed
<Burgwork> mdke, not bad, at least they work
<mdke> yeah
<robotgeek> night mdke 
<mdke> night
<LaserJock> good night mdke
#ubuntu-doc 2006-03-16
<manicka> hi bustacap
<bustacap> gday manicka
<Madpilot> is there an svn command to merge a diff I've been sent into my local copy? svn merge looks right, but I can't figure out the syntax
<LaserJock> hmm, not sure
<Madpilot> I've created a fair number of diffs, but never bothered figuring out how to handle them further :P
<LaserJock> is your local copy clean?
<Madpilot> yes
<LaserJock> then you should just apply the patch then
<LaserJock> yikes, bad grammar there
<Madpilot> svn's help is being non-helpful - which *is* the 'apply this patch' command, anyway?
<Burgundavia> Madpilot: svn not being helpful. What a shock
<Madpilot> Burgundavia, by man-page standards, svn help is reasonable :P
<LaserJock> Madpilot: why not use patch ?
<Madpilot> the regular console command patch? (there doesn't seem to be an "svn patch"...)
<LaserJock> yeah, that is what I always use
<Madpilot> Ah, OK. bleh - given that svn uses it's own patch-creation routine, I was expecting patch-merging to be in svn as well
<LaserJock> well, you aren't supposed to do anything outside of the repo so ;-)
<Madpilot> I'm still confused - what's the 'usual' method of dealing with diffs, then?
<LaserJock> patch
<Burgundavia> patch -p0 patch.patch file (I think)
<Madpilot> and if it's a diff encompassing multiple files?
<LaserJock> usually you have to adjust the -p to -p1 or -p2 depending on how deep it is
<Madpilot> "patch -p0 udgaddperiod.diff
<Madpilot> " - but all it does is sit there until I hit Ctrl+C, no matter which directory I stick the .diff in before I start - wtf?
<LaserJock> oh, use < to pipe the file in
<LaserJock> patch uses stdin for the diff
<Madpilot> ah
<Madpilot> that finally worked - thanks
<LaserJock> np Madpilot 
<LaserJock> hi robotgeek 
<robotgeek> hey LaserJock 
<Madpilot> hi robotgeek 
<robotgeek> hey Madpilot 
<robotgeek> had to /remove someone in #kubuntu
<LaserJock> really?
<robotgeek> yeah, i hate it when people paste without reading /topic
<crimsun> lj: will review packaging guide later this weekend (a bit more time now that the alsa patches have been spun)
<LaserJock> crimsun: ok, cool. I really got to get a lot done on that this weekend
<crimsun> ok, I'll see if I can svn up before sunday, but I'm away from Ubuntu this weekend visiting my gf in Atlanta
<robotgeek> Madpilot: seveas fixed the nice script for me and nalioth
<Madpilot> robotgeek, which script?
<robotgeek> irssi only, but it basically ops and deops you automatically after performing the required action
<Madpilot> ah, that one. Doesn't someone have an XChat version too? (Seveas?)
<robotgeek> hmm, maybe
<robotgeek> nalioth and I owe seveas some beer for fixing perl code!
<robotgeek> Madpilot: apparently the java version is not at update 6. i will make those changes, with some added instructiosn for ppc also
<robotgeek> Madpilot: i'm wondering what is the best way to do this
* robotgeek does wiki work so that he just give out link in Desktop Guide
<Burgundavia> hey robitaille
<robitaille> Hi Burgundavia 
<robotgeek> mdke: ping
<Madpilot> hi all
<Burgundavia> salut Madpilot
<robotgeek> hey Madpilot 
<robotgeek> Madpilot: can you take a look at the java section in kdg and see if you like it?
<Madpilot> robotgeek, sure - maybe not tonight, though
<robotgeek> Madpilot: it's a small section, i will commit the changes for you too :)
<Madpilot> robotgeek, just a minute, then I'll have a loook
<Madpilot> robotgeek, shouldn't the Java section be somewhere more conspicuious than "Misc. Tips"?
<robotgeek> Madpilot: hmm, did you guys move it already? :)
<Madpilot> in UDG it's in Internet, in with the other Firefox setup tips
<robotgeek> Madpilot: no, it's in programming
<Madpilot> gah, you're right - I'm behind the times too :P
<Madpilot> there's a link to it from the Internet section though
<robotgeek> Madpilot: yeah, i see that. I will do the same. 
<robotgeek> but other than that, the content is fine?
<Madpilot> Yes
<robotgeek> cool, i'll move it and commit it
<Madpilot> I'm going to steal your warning about what Java applies to for UDG
<robotgeek> Madpilot: i was planning to copy over the java section to UDG and commit too
<robotgeek> since you seemed to be in a hurry :)
<Madpilot> sure, go ahead - thanks
<robotgeek> i also updated the versions
<robotgeek> Madpilot: Committed as revision 2574.
<Madpilot> robotgeek, thanks
<robotgeek> Madpilot: there are a couple of ppc things which i will be doing, hopefully
<Madpilot> robotgeek, do you run PPC?
<robotgeek> yes
<robotgeek> hence the "help needed" sections on the guide, i can't install all that stuff even if i wanted to
<Madpilot> anyone active on the docteam run AMD64, do you know?
<robotgeek> nope, i know nalioth runs amd64
<robotgeek> welcome tonyyarusso 
<tonyyarusso> I have arrived.
<Madpilot> hi tonyyarusso 
<tonyyarusso> Madpilot: Hi.
<Madpilot> tonyyarusso, there's a docteam mailing list as well, if you're interested in joining that
<tonyyarusso> Madpilot: I may.  First I need to take a few minutes to get my e-mail under control.
<tonyyarusso> My nautilus-list things are already somewhat annoying, and no longer relevant, so I should probably part with that, and maybe use a different account next time.
* robotgeek is planning email
<tonyyarusso> (Not a fan of when my gdesklet says 12 new messages and they're all mailing list)
<robotgeek> +1 tonyyarusso 
<tonyyarusso> What was that?
<robotgeek> i used to get pissed off about those mails too :)
<tonyyarusso> So are there some good little wiki things outlining good practice for things like documenting an installation experience, describing an OS, etc.?  A large portion of my hopeful intended audience is Windows users that I want to inform about alternatives, especially now that Vista is on the horizon.
<tonyyarusso> robotgeek: I see.
<Madpilot> tonyyarusso, see the /topic here for a bunch of good links that should get you started - quick questions here, longer questions to the ML
<tonyyarusso> I joined initially to ask about selecting files, like the Windows Explorer behavior.
<tonyyarusso> Madpilot: Gotcha.
<tonyyarusso> The /topic says next meeting a week ago...
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-doc:Madpilot] :  Ubuntu Documentation Team - general discussion - backlog at http://people.ubuntu.com/~fabbione/irclogs | Website http://doc.ubuntu.com | Get involved: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam | SVN - https://docteam.ubuntu.com/repos | Please observe the Ubuntu community code of conduct @ http://www.ubuntu.com/community/conduct | Next meeting: TBA, 3rd week of Mar 2006 21UTC https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/MeetingAgenda |
<Madpilot> Not anymore, it doesn't :P
<Burgundavia> Madpilot: see my followup to the disucss list
<Madpilot> Burgundavia, on freegeek victoria, you mean? Sounds interesting, too bad ReStore can't participate 
<tonyyarusso> Madpilot: What's the TBA about?
<Madpilot> tonyyarusso, we don't have an exact date, but our meetings are always every two weeks - so right now it's just "sometime in the 3rd week of March"
<tonyyarusso> Madpilot: I was told this coming Tuesday would have a meeting about possibly delaying 6.04.
<Burgundavia> tonyyarusso: indeed it will
<Madpilot> tonyyarusso, yeah, I read Mark Shuttleworth's email
<tonyyarusso> Madpilot: So shouldn't that info be in that?
<robotgeek> tonyyarusso: do you have a x86 machine and a kubuntu dapper iso?
<Burgundavia> ah, crap Flight 5 made the front page of Digg and it is not even released
<robotgeek> lol
<Madpilot> tonyyarusso, probably - the announcement was only this morning, though
<tonyyarusso> robotgeek: x86 with Ubuntu, ShipIt disks.
<tonyyarusso> Madpilot: Point.
<robotgeek> tonyyarusso: hmm okay
<tonyyarusso> Actually, Danielle has my last disk now.  I guess I need Dapper soon to have a disk!
<tonyyarusso> robotgeek: Why do you ask?
<robotgeek> tonyyarusso: testing what i wrote, i am a ppc user. a full list of things is currently being emailed :)
<tonyyarusso> robotgeek: ah.
<Madpilot> robotgeek, send your list to the ML too - I've got Flight4 CDs of both Ubuntu & Kubuntu burned
<robotgeek> Madpilot: yes, i am mailing the list, and point nalioth the url :)
<Madpilot> cool
<robotgeek> sent
<tonyyarusso> Hey, if you haven't kept track in the past, can you check for a list of all of the wiki pages you have edited somehow?
<Burgundavia> tonyyarusso: probably, but not easily
<Burgundavia> tonyyarusso: there is "User contributions" button ala Wikipedia, if that is what you mean
<tonyyarusso> Burgundavia: Is that user-tied or page-tied?
<Burgundavia> tonyyarusso: in wikipedia?
<tonyyarusso> Burgundavia: Either?
<tonyyarusso> Whatever you think tells me what I need to know.
<Burgundavia> mediaiwiki is per user as well as per page
<Burgundavia> moin currenlty only does per page, unless there is a(nother, sigh) hidden feature
<tonyyarusso> Hrm.  'k.
<mdke> hiya
<Madpilot> hi
<jpatrick> hi
<Madpilot> night all
<jpatrick> night Madpilot 
<mkde> does anyone know where the admonition icons we use came from? I need some slightly larger versions
<mkde> ah hell
* mkde enlarges them in GIMP
<mkde> let's see how that looks
<LaserJock> trappist: I hope something develops fom your init scripts thread in u-devel
#ubuntu-doc 2006-03-17
<Burgundavia> hmm, nice opinion piece on lxer. Novell should by linspire, xandros and canonical
<LaserJock> hi mkde 
<mkde> hiya LaserJock 
<mkde> all well?
<LaserJock> oh, frantically working on many different projects
<LaserJock> trying to get taxes done this weekend :(
<LaserJock> trying to figure out if I can fix anything in Universe
<mkde> ouch
<mkde> hate the damn taxes
<LaserJock> well, I just realized that I might not have all the info I need so I've got to got rooting around to find it :/
* mkde nods
<mkde> shall I do a pdf for the packaging guide?
<LaserJock> mkde: I don't know if it would be all the usefull at this moment  but I'd like to have it in the future for sure.
<LaserJock> is it built like the html at doc.ubuntu.com?
<mkde> no, it's rather different
<mkde> it's a bit sucky right now, I don't know how to do snazzy colours and such
<LaserJock> if it is a big deal don't worry about it. it would be nice to have it eventually though
<mkde> no, it's not a big deal at all, I've made them for the server/desktop guides
<LaserJock> mkde: do you have to do them by hand? or do you have a cronjob?
<mkde> so far I've done them by hand
<mkde> still playing
<LaserJock> yeah, I saw the serverguide pdf. It looks pretty cool even though it doesn't have the colors
<mkde> I'm gonna put a new one up, I've added some admonition images
<LaserJock> ah, I did notice that they weren't there. I am rather fond of them :)
<mkde> uploading now
<LaserJock> mdke: URL? I forgot already
<mkde> http://doc.ubuntu.com/test
<mkde> packaging guide is there
<LaserJock> cool
<mkde> I'd like to get some coloured links, and such
<mkde> but I don't understand pdf making in any way
<mkde> is a table of contents a good idea for the pdfs
<mkde> ?
<LaserJock> hmm, it is nice if they are linked
<mkde> yes they are
<mkde> although right now, the page numbers are wrong :D
<LaserJock> hmm, well that would be a problem
<mkde> no, my bad
<mkde> actually, i just didn't realise the page numbers of the pdf are different to the page numbers of the document
<mkde> man, I'm thick
<mkde> ok /me masters the table of contents
<LaserJock> sweet
<mkde> reuploaded
<mkde> now then
<mkde> the tricky bit
<LaserJock> ohhhh, preeety :)
<mkde> those blank pages before the TOC, and the crappy invisible-to-the-naked-eye linking
<mkde> ROCK
<mkde> blue links!
<LaserJock> uploaded?
<mkde> uploading
<Madpilot> mkde, which doc is this for?
<mkde> Madpilot: all the Ubuntu ones, i might do the kubuntu ones too
<mkde> uploaded. http://doc.ubuntu.com/test
<mkde> mmm
<Madpilot> looks good. How much fine control do you have?
<Madpilot> on pg23 of desktopguide.pdf, the title "Browse Network Computers" is on the end of one page, but all the actual content of that section is on the top of the next page
<mkde> that is doable
<LaserJock> Madpilot: man, the layout nazi. mdke has just been trying to get the links to work ;-)
<Madpilot> I read the backscroll, saw the links & pictures were working, and brought up the next thing I noticed :P
<mkde> :))
<mkde> i love this group
<Madpilot> interesting how much whitespace the <procedure> tag generates above itself in those pdfs
<mkde> might be a while before I get on to that one though
<mkde> I still haven't got a clue what I'm doing
<Madpilot> which app are you using for creating the pdfs?
<mkde> something called fop
<LaserJock> I used that in Windows once to build pdfs of the packaging guide
<LaserJock> btw Windows really sucks for tying to do docbook work
<mkde> heh
<LaserJock> and OSX only seems to work because I can install the *nix programs to do it
<mkde> Madpilot: looks like we can't fix the windowed sect2 titles
<mkde> at least with fop, it doesn't do it
<Madpilot> ah well 
<mkde> commercial software is required, it seems
<Madpilot> or more complex stuff like importing our stuff into Scribus, which would be a lot of work
<mkde> i don't think we can solve the procedure whitespace issue either :/
<rob> hi
<rob> have you all seen this? http://live.gnome.org/LiveDocumentationEditing
<rob> there is a live demo, it looks pretty good
<rob> note that it hasn't been maintained in at least 6 months, but I could probably do something with it
<mkde> cool
<mkde> that danilo guy is fricking awesome
<rob> yeah, he emailed me the other day about it
<mkde> oh yeah?
<rob> he was sponsored under the google summer of code
<mkde> he saw your email to -devel?
<rob> yeah
<rob> its pretty much what I eventually envisioned, even more so
<mkde> i wonder if he uses Ubuntu
<rob> but needs a fair bit more work
<rob> but thats where I'll come in :)
<rob> I was originally going to help out on gai, but they pretty much have that covered (the new version is awesome)
<rob> mdke, how is the 6 week extention on dapper going to affect the docs?
<theCore> hi LaserJock
<mkde> rob: there has been no decision on either thing
<mkde> the extension, or the effect on the docs
<rob> well if it goes ahead (which it most likely will), will the docs be given the extra time too?
<mkde> my view would be to keep the string freeze the same, or move it by about a week
<mkde> and lump the extra time on translations
<rob> they could use the time I guess
<mkde> very much so
<mkde> there is a LOT of stuff to translate
<mkde> and the docs are in great shape
<mkde> but anyhow, who knows if it will be delayed or not
<theCore> a 6 weeks extension ?
<rob> mark emailed the lists
<mkde> Madpilot: ok actually the whitespace in lists thing is solved
<theCore> lemme check this out
<LaserJock> hi theCore 
<theCore> LaserJock: is there a section you would like I work out ?
<mkde> ok, I've gone about as far as I am likely to get on the pdfs
<mkde> get em here: http://doc.ubuntu.com/pdf
<LaserJock> theCore: could you work on the appendix a bit?  fill it out
<mkde> feedback to the list :)
<theCore> LaserJock: no problem
<theCore> rob: which mailing list ?
<mkde> theCore: -doc, -devel-announce, -art, etc
<Madpilot> theCore, sounder, at least - don't think it went to doc
<LaserJock> theCore: particularly filling in the Additional Resources with little descriptions and adding a little text (Probably from the Debian New Maitainer's Guide) for the .ex example files.
<mkde> yeah was on doc too
<mkde> launchpad, fridge
<LaserJock> also on the forums
<LaserJock> theCore: basically you missed out ;-)
<theCore> LaserJock: I work a lot these days, so I can't really keep up
<theCore> My mailbox has 300 unread messages
<LaserJock> theCore: well, do what you can and send me short diffs, OK?
<theCore> okay
<theCore> there something funny in my install ... 
<theCore> ( /etc/skel/Examples/Video/mdzzzz.ogg ;)
<mkde> theCore: yes
<LaserJock> arrghhh, I hate taxes >:(
<mgalvin> bah, gmail is starting to annoy me
<mgalvin> mdke: those pdf's look really great
<mgalvin> if any issues can be worked out i would say to push forward and use the,
<mgalvin> they also provide readers with a way to properly print out the guides if they so choose
<mkde> I think they are shippable already
<mkde> I don't think they are going to improve much from here
<robotgeek> mdke: nice job on the pdf's
<Burgundavia> indeed. They look fine
<Burgundavia> fine as in mighty fine
<mkde> heh
<Burgundavia> not fine as in not great
<mkde> gotcha
<Burgundavia> damn language
* Burgundavia goes back to grunting
<robotgeek> why did dapper's delay hit slashdot
<robotgeek> proposed nonetheless
<Burgundavia> because slashdot is not news?
<Burgundavia> well flight 5 hit digg yesterday
<Burgundavia> I saw a great piece on cbc about marketing cool
<Burgundavia> and how Apple is cool
<Burgundavia> Ubuntu is gaining something similar
<mkde> night all
<robotgeek> night mdke 
<robotgeek> Madpilot: ping
<Madpilot> hmm?
<robotgeek> http://packages.ubuntu.com/dapper/libs/libdvdread3 says libdvdcss2 is unavailable, how do dvd's work in dapper?
<Madpilot> no idea. I don't actually own any DVDs
<robotgeek> same problem here
* robotgeek reads changelogd
<Madpilot> I can pick one up from work Monday, though, and test it on the Flight5 liveCD I'm torrenting. (I've got two optical drives)
<robotgeek> nice, let me know
<robotgeek> Madpilot: i think the nvidia settings needs to be changed in udg too, "nvidia-settings" is not installable in dapper
<robotgeek> however, the binary is a part of the package itself, leading to a one line fix :)
<Madpilot> robotgeek, I've got an ATI card here - ask on the list for Nvidia owners
<robotgeek> nvidia-glx package, i mean
<robotgeek> Madpilot: i asked, you want me to go ahead and change it?
<Madpilot> might as well
<robotgeek> crap, Tm_T was wrong. 
* robotgeek goes to smacK Tm_t
<Burgundavia> you need libdvdread3 as well as the css one
<Burgundavia> and gstreamer0.10-dvd, but I don;'t know if that has been ported yet
<robotgeek> Burgundavia: hmm, but libdvdcss is not available?
<Burgundavia> that is only avaibable through marilliat
<Burgundavia> there are legal issues with having it availabe
<Burgundavia> available, even
<robotgeek> they got rid of the script?
<Burgundavia> what script?
<robotgeek> okay, it is still in there. 
<Burgundavia> the one to download libdvdcss2?
<robotgeek> someone complained about a amd64 version
<Burgundavia> the sticking point is that with totem-gstreamer, there is gstreamer0.10-dvd plugin yet
<Burgundavia> ok, asking on #gstreamer about dvd playback
<Madpilot> hi jsgotangco 
<Burgundavia> salut jsgotangco
<robotgeek> hey jsgotangco 
<jsgotangco> hi!
<jsgotangco> hey all, nice to be back home :)
<mgalvin> i was going to commit all my screenshots to svn
<mgalvin> where are we keeping new ones now (C|en|both)?
<jsgotangco> ohh i didnt know flight 5 came out already
<mgalvin> yup, digg.com jumped the gun on the announcement so tollef released it today
<jsgotangco> the pumpkin release
<jsgotangco> heh
<mgalvin> :)
<jsgotangco> that's the problem with sites allowing communities to actually post
<jsgotangco> :/
<mgalvin> yea, on that note, to prevent further ramblings on the review pages, henrick and i move all the flight reviews to www.ubuntu.com
<mgalvin> its a better setup to handle the load anyway
<jsgotangco> yes that's better
<jsgotangco> a lot of press has been using the wiki lately as reference and dub it official
<mgalvin> meh, i will just commit them in both places (since that is how it is now) and we could always remove what we don't need
<mgalvin> i figure we could probably use some of them for other things too
<jsgotangco> what you'll have to prepare now is consolidate all the changes in the future to be used a release notes
<mgalvin> yup
<mgalvin> has anyone worked on the dapper release notes at all?
<jsgotangco> none yet
* Burgundavia volunteers mgalvin
<jsgotangco> well i used to have a draft
<jsgotangco> for breezy
<jsgotangco> well it was actually used for breezy
<Burgundavia> have you seen what davyd has done with the gnome 2.14 stuff?
<mgalvin> Burgundavia: yup
<jsgotangco> you can just continue DapperReleaseNotes and consolidate everything
<mgalvin> how does the string freeze effect release notes?
<mgalvin> would i have to get in done with the next few days or so
<jsgotangco> not at all
<mgalvin> yea, i see the breezy notes in svn
<jsgotangco> its a very dynamic doc and its much better to do it on a wiki
<jsgotangco> so that even the others can contribute to it
<Burgundavia> gnome builds their release notes out of cvs with docbook
<Burgundavia> we should investigate how they do this and harness for ourselves
<mgalvin> yea, i like doing the reviews on the wiki but they are less official... the official release notes should probably live in svn/docbook
<mgalvin> i can certainly investigate gnomes process a bit
<Burgundavia> we can probably build a wiki markup instead of an html markup
<mgalvin> i will probably take a crack at putting together the dapper release notes over the next few days
<jsgotangco> if you're going to do it in svn, i'll look at it too since i did the previous one
<mgalvin> hmm, true, we could easily build both
<jsgotangco> my wiki monitoring has been out of control lately
<mgalvin> ok cool
<Burgundavia> salut robitaille
<robitaille> Bonsoir Burgundavia 
<mgalvin> are both the release notes docs going to be used or should i just create a new one for dapper and leave the old one alone?
<Burgundavia> mgalvin: you talking about the breezy ones?
<mgalvin> Burgundavia: yes, there is release-notes.xml and breezy-release-notes.xml... should i create dapper-release-notes.xml and update release-notes.xml or just create the new dapper-release-notes.xml and leave the other as is?
<jsgotangco> lol i post a picture of a girl on planet and it gets 40 hits in less than an hour
<mgalvin> hehe :)
* mgalvin will go make 41
<jsgotangco> lol
<robotgeek> 42
<jsgotangco> stupid phone camera can't even make decent photos at 1.3MP
<robotgeek> i need to track the visits to my blog, 1377 visits since march 02, 2006. seems unnatural :P
<jsgotangco> the G-A-I screenshot i made had 1,521 hits
<mgalvin> jsgotangco: when you created the breezy-release-notes.xml did you also update release-notes.xml?
<jsgotangco> no
<jsgotangco> release-notes.xml is very very old
* mgalvin *cough* DapperFlight4 got 119,000 hits :) *cough*
<mgalvin> ok, then i will leave it alone
<jsgotangco> lol
<mgalvin> everybody loves screenshots
<mgalvin> except ISP's
<Burgundavia> no, they love them too, if you pay them per GB
<mgalvin> oh yea! :) i've had over 200GB of data transfer since making those... hence another reason for moving them to the main site
<mgalvin> although luckily is have stayed under the limit
<mgalvin> s/is/i
<jsgotangco> i have a dedicated server on the west coast that has 2,000GB of data transfer but its not cheap either
<Burgundavia> jsgotangco: west coast of where?
<jsgotangco> us
<Burgundavia> ah yes
<Burgundavia> ok, why the hell is my editor still up at 3am?
<jsgotangco> they have lots of bandwidth
<Burgundavia> and checked her work mail?
<jsgotangco> lol
<jsgotangco> don't you like that
<jsgotangco> heh
<Burgundavia> I think I am going to write a book called "Writing a book is hard"
<jsgotangco> robotgeek: why is there a section about installing quake?
<robotgeek> jsgotangco: hmm, it was in udg, so i left it in there
<robotgeek> http://doc.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/desktopguide/C/games.html
<Burgundavia> probably a remnant of the ubuntuguide
<jsgotangco> is quake packaged or redistributable?
<robotgeek> if you ahve the cd
<jsgotangco> robotgeek: personally, what is not in our repositories should be removed
<robotgeek> i think you can also apt-get install quake3?
<robotgeek> lemme see
<Burgundavia> no
<Burgundavia> there is free data for quake and quake2, but nothing yet for quake3
<robotgeek> yeah, i wouldn't mind nuking it
<robotgeek> i don't play games anyways :)
<jsgotangco> wonder if someone packaged aleph one
<Burgundavia> games are for people avoiding doing things like *cough* writing books *cough*
<mgalvin> gdebi is really neat for these late tired and lazy 2 am hacking sessions
<mgalvin> one less command to type :)
<robotgeek> heh, commented out. 
<robotgeek> oh, i have to copy over the graphics section now
<Burgundavia> robotgeek: just nuke it
<robotgeek> Burgundavia: okies
<Burgundavia> commenting out is like #ifdef-ing stuff
<Burgundavia> it means that you are trying to avoid pissing somebody off
<Burgundavia> and can't come to consensus
<robotgeek> yeah, i'll nuke it
<jsgotangco> robotgeek: my rationale for nuking some sections like quake is that dapper will have 3 years on the desktop hence, an admin will have to bear with 3 years of users installing such apps
<robotgeek> jsgotangco: +1
<mgalvin> good night all
<jsgotangco> ciao
<robotgeek> night mgalvin 
<Burgundavia> our release notes should be more graphical
<Burgundavia> our press release can be non-graphical
* robotgeek commits
<robotgeek> should scribus be in office or in graphics?
<robotgeek> i have no clue about dtp
<robotgeek> and graphics too :)
<robotgeek> is Krita the kde equivalent of Gimp
<Burgundavia> graphics
<Burgundavia> and yes
<robotgeek> grumbles
<robotgeek> jsut when i thought i wa done :)
<jsgotangco> yes
<jsgotangco> robotgeek: just install a new kubuntu build and it should be in a correct category
<robotgeek> i actually havent seen scribus in action yet
<jsgotangco> lol
<robotgeek> step 1 -> open adept, step 2 -> isntall step3 -> launch from Kmenu -> wherever
<robotgeek> done!
<robotgeek> jsgotangco: beat this, i has menu entries in both graphics and office :)
<robotgeek> i'm putting it in graphics, i don't care if you use it in your office 
<Madpilot> Burgundavia, in Ubuntu, Scribus is in the Office submenu
<jsgotangco> hrmmm
<jsgotangco> jeezz its probably around 31C here at the moment
<robotgeek> nice
<Burgundavia> Madpilot: hmm
<Madpilot> It's around 2C here, we had actual snow a few nights ago
<robotgeek> Madpilot: i am wondering how to include the bookinfo credits for you guys
<Madpilot> for the Ubuntu Desktop Guide authors, you mean?
<robotgeek> kdg is based on udg, so the current author list from udg must get credit
<Madpilot> put the KDG group first, then say something like "KDG is based on the UDG, which was worked on by the following additional people:"
<robotgeek> there is not group, as such. for kdg
<robotgeek> i basically had to rewrite the entire sections
<robotgeek> :w
<robotgeek> sorry, wrong window
<robotgeek> committed, i'm out
<Madpilot> later, robotgeek 
<Burgundavia> anybody else having issues with google?
<jsgotangco> mine is pretty good
<Burgundavia> night all
<LaserJock> hi mdke_  and Madpilot 
<Madpilot> hi
#ubuntu-doc 2006-03-18
<LaserJock> is it better to show the URL of a link or use the words of the sentence?
<mgalvin> LaserJock: i would say it depends on your audience but words can always be more descriptive and friendly
<LaserJock> mgalvin: I generally go for words unless there is something important about the URL but I didn't know if there was a "best practices" for it
<mgalvin> LaserJock: not that i am aware of
<LaserJock> hi theCore 
<theCore> hello LaserJock
<theCore> LaserJock: should we add a section about meta-packages ?
<LaserJock> perhaps, that actually would be quite usefull for people
<theCore> ubuntu tend to use a lot meta-packages
<LaserJock> yeah, and people can use a meta-package for all there personal packages so then when the reinstall they just install their personal meta-package and get all their "goodies"
<theCore> I don't think we need explain how to make one, though. Just a quick definition about it would be fine.
<LaserJock> well, yes. Once you know how to package  building a meta-packages should be easy
<Burgundavia> wow, much todo about nothing on digg today
<Madpilot> isn't that standard for digg?
<Madpilot> it's like slashdot, without the diversion of the +5 Funny posts
<theCore> LaserJock: we should really emphasized on giving the reader a deep understanding of the debian package format, so they can develop their own techniques 
<LaserJock> theCore: sure
<Burgundavia> Madpilot: indeed. You going out to dad's tonight for dinner?
<Madpilot> Burgundavia, yes
<Burgundavia> ok
<Burgundavia> if I hadn't just blogged, I would blog again about how this is a tempest in a teakettle
<LaserJock> which one ;-)
<Burgundavia> this Ubuntu issue, or the OS X fud that ran around earlier this week
<theCore> LaserJock: I don't want make the guide as a long tutorial which teach nothing to the reader except standard procesdures
<LaserJock> theCore: sure. I'm just stuggling to fill the current outline. I'm not sure how much we can do for Dapper
<theCore> oka, I need to go
<theCore> cya later
<LaserJock> anybody around? is there a way to get monospace fonts without using <filename>?
<robotgeek> LaserJock: hey there
<LaserJock> hi robotgeek 
<robotgeek> long day today
<LaserJock> yeah?
<robotgeek> yeah..pretty tired, went out to friends place early today
<LaserJock> good time?
<robotgeek> yeah..lots of fun. ended with fondue :)
<robotgeek> in the meantime, i guess a ubuntu bug was discovered and fixed
<LaserJock> good
<robotgeek> but i am running dapper :P
<LaserJock> good
<LaserJock> first install?
<robotgeek> hmm, been running dapper as my main os for about 2 months now
<LaserJock> ok, cool
<robotgeek> mdke__: ping, did you install that java FOP for the xml to pdf conversion?
<LaserJock> I started running it right after the repos opened. It has been a lot more stable than Breezy was before release
<robotgeek> nice
<LaserJock> bhuvan: ping?
<bhuvan> LaserJock pong
<LaserJock> bhuvan: did I ever mention that I didn't like "Packaging"  as a title for that section?
<bhuvan> LaserJock, i guess not
<LaserJock> bhuvan: I think I might have talked to mdke about it once
<LaserJock> bhuvan: it just doesn't seem to be the best word to describe that section
<bhuvan> LaserJock, oh ok. so ?
<LaserJock> bhuvan: oh wait, I think it was already changed. sorry
<robotgeek> manicka: hey
<manicka> hi
<robotgeek> manicka: hows it going?
<manicka> can't complain... busy busy as usual
<manicka> yourself?
<manicka> how's the kubuntu guide going?
<robotgeek> it needs reviewing
<robotgeek> other than that, complete i guess
<LaserJock> robotgeek: lucky ;p
<robotgeek> LaserJock: udg is complete, so is kdg :)
<LaserJock> well, the upg isn't, although I did get a couple commits in tonight
<robotgeek> nice
<manicka> upg? packaging?
<LaserJock> Ubuntu Packaging Guide
<manicka> robotgeek: I'll try to do some proofing later when I'm sick of looking at work stuff
<robotgeek> thanks manicka 
<Madpilot> hi all - greetings from a very orange place :P
<robotgeek> Madpilot: where ?
<robotgeek> okay, i get it
<Madpilot> robotgeek: Dapper Flight5 LiveCD - the default Dapper theme is more orange than brown
<robotgeek> heh
<Madpilot> and XChat-Gnome isn't even included by default, which sucketh
<robotgeek> i wonder if *our* flight 5 will be blue/green
<Madpilot> and XChat-Gnome has stupid defaults - XChat will connect you to FreeNode/#ubuntu by default, but XChat-Gnome just sits there
<manicka> title bar is back to brown in metacity
<Madpilot> manicka: in the daily build of Dapper?
<manicka> in the latest update I have, yes
<Madpilot> bleh - XChat-gnome can't colour nicks like XChat can
<Madpilot> I am once again unimpressed by XChat-Gnome... :(
<robitaille> irssi :)    and it seems it comes installed in a default dapper install
<robotgeek> Madpilot: move to irssi!
<robotgeek> amen!
<LaserJock> Madpilot: was it installed by defualt? I didn't think so
<Madpilot> LaserJock: it's not, I had to install it
<manicka> hmmm, I still had clearlooks on
<Madpilot> thankfully this machine has enough ram to handle actually installing stuff on the LiveCD :P
<robotgeek> Madpilot: so, you are going to take a dig at my issues?
<LaserJock> robitaille: it is installed by default with Flight5?
<Madpilot> so some obscure cli-based IRC client is included by default, but Xchat/Xchat-gnome is not- sorry, but that's screwed up
<robitaille> LaserJock:  I think it is...but not 100%.  I can't remember installing  it in the last 24 hours since I installed flight 5
<robotgeek> Madpilot: irssi is not obscure :)
<robitaille> for some people cli commands are obscure :)
<LaserJock> well, I didn't think there was supposed to be *any* irc client installed by default so...
<robitaille> but irssi is not easy to configure initially
<Madpilot> robotgeek: the terminal is inherently obscure :P
<robitaille> gaim does irc.  
<robitaille> but not very well
<robotgeek> yeah, take that Madpilot . gaim is the answer. or you can move to kde :)
<Madpilot> XChat-Gnome doesn't do IRC very well either, IMO...
<Burgundavia> Madpilot: the x-g is breezy sucksw
<robitaille> LaserJock:   if I try to remove irssi, it tries to remove ubuntu-desktop.  So I guess it came by default in flight 5
<Madpilot> Burgundavia: I'm running Flight5 LiveCD, and XChat-Gnome still bites
<highvoltage> yay :)
<LaserJock> I like Xchat-Aqua myself :-) although I'm using Windows Xchat at the moment
<LaserJock> robitaille: ok, cool
<Madpilot> That's interesting - Flight5 doesn't seem to put icons in the desktop switcher like Breezy does
<LaserJock> I much prefer Xchat over Xchat-gome since I actually use my user list
<Madpilot> likewise
<manicka> agreed
<Madpilot> I've also customized XChat's right-click menus, so the stuff I actually use is easy to get to
<Madpilot> I've also customized XChat's colours, so the screenful of text is easier to follow
<manicka> hasn't xchat-gome been removed from flight 5?
<Madpilot> it doesn't look like X-Gnome allows any of that stuff
<Madpilot> manicka: it has, I installed it
<Burgundavia> ugh, peole on digg are taking credit for "helping" with this vuln
<robotgeek> comments on digg don't deserve to be read, even
<manicka> so there's no xchats by default anymore
<Madpilot> digg - it's as bad as slashdot, without the entertainment of the +5 Funny comments :P
<Madpilot> manicka: nope
<manicka> interesting
<robotgeek> Madpilot: +1 on /.
<DiReCTOR> hello
<Madpilot> hi
<Burgundavia> salut DiReCTOR
<DiReCTOR> a quick question, odes ubuntu supports Intel 2200 wireless card
<Burgundavia> DiReCTOR: yes, but this is not really the correct channel to ask that in
<DiReCTOR> alrite, where then
<Madpilot> DiReCTOR: /join #ubuntu
<DiReCTOR> can i ask a general question
<Madpilot> DiReCTOR: #ubuntu is probably a better place, but go ahead...
<DiReCTOR> can you suggest any site or book for linux 
<DiReCTOR> like general commands and stuff
<Madpilot> for Ubuntu, start at http://wiki.ubuntu.com or http://help.ubuntu.com
<DiReCTOR> alrite 
<Madpilot> hi mdke
<mdke> hello
<mdke> robotgeek, re: fop, yes I installed it
<robotgeek> mdke: yeah, got it figured out. i was missing fop.jar
<mdke> robotgeek, ok
<robotgeek> mdke: not bad at all, i need to mess with the xsl stuff. 
<mdke> robotgeek, how come?
<robotgeek> i am now officially tired of customizing resumes for text/pdf format
<robotgeek> http://xmlresume.sourceforge.net/ does what i need well
<mdke> oh, I thought you had some ideas for changing our pdfs
<robotgeek> mdke: no, i got the diea from there tho, thanks :)
<mdke> heh
<mdke> did you succeed in building a pdf of the kubuntu quickguide?
<mdke> mine crashes
<robotgeek> you mean the java?
<robotgeek> i doubt mine will survive, ibm java and stuff
<mdke> i'll get the error message
<mdke> Exception in thread "main" java.lang.OutOfMemoryError: Java heap space
<mdke> it says that after page 125 or something *grin*
<robotgeek> maybe you can increase the java heapspace?
<mdke> maybe
<robotgeek> mdke: http://forum.java.sun.com/thread.jspa?threadID=636872&messageID=3716437
<mdke> thanks
<mdke> robotgeek, no idea how to do that :D
<robotgeek> mdke: moment
<robotgeek> mdke: in fop.sh
<robotgeek> add that option to JAVACMD
<mdke> in its definition?
* mdke wonders how much memory to give it
<robotgeek> yes
<mdke> it's still crashing on page 125
<mdke> i gave it 400M
<robotgeek> eggs mdke to curse java
<robotgeek> mdke: ask in ##java, they might know
<mdke> i will ask another time
<mdke> robotgeek, i hope you're not a cricket fan
<robotgeek> mdke: used to be, i did hear the news
<mdke> :(
* Burgundavia hulks smahes OO.o
<robotgeek> we are talking about SA vs Aus?
<mdke> India are beating England
* bhuvan is watching that match :)
<robotgeek> mdke: not to worry, i did not know a match was going on. 
<Burgundavia> ok, so I got the same document, reviewed by jorge and quim gil. OO.o says "cannot merge documents"
<mdke> bhuvan, grrrr
<mdke> Burgundavia, don't you want to read their changes first?
<Burgundavia> no, I want to merge all comments into a single document
<Burgundavia> so I can look at both comments side by side
* mdke shrugs
<Burgundavia> it is just annoying, because I know the documents are essentially the same
<robotgeek> i got in on the action too. 
<Burgundavia> robotgeek: action?
<robotgeek> the cricket action
<robotgeek> mdke: nice shot :)
<Madpilot> poningru: why aren't we discussing doc stuff here, instead of -offtopic? :P
<poningru> oh hehe
<poningru> true
<poningru> but yeah wanted to work on ubuntu desktop starter guide unless its already finished
<Madpilot> the stuff on the website gets built twice a day from the SVN
<Burgundavia> poningru: docs are never finished
<poningru> hehe
<Madpilot> poningru: the Ubuntu DG seems fairly complete, but go ahead and edit/add to/etc
<Madpilot> just keep in mind that our string freeze for Dapper is coming up on March 23rd
<poningru> 0.0
<poningru> crap
<poningru> should have started a while ago
<Madpilot> ten days yet
<poningru> true
<poningru> will work on other stuff too then
<poningru> yeah I was looking through the stuff seems pretty complete
<Madpilot> if Dapper is delayed, that'll push our freeze back too
<poningru> ah ic
<robotgeek> bhuvan, poningru : yay! 
<Madpilot> I'm going to add a gThumb section to UDG tomorrow, and I'll have a look thru the rest of it too
<robotgeek> alrite, i'm out. 
<robotgeek> i need to add kipi-pluigigs to kde too
<poningru> night dude
<Madpilot> later, robotgeek
<sander> mdke: I found a spelling error in the packaging guide pdf, first page in the paragraph about ./configure: "...Standard Debian packaging tools US it and so it is important..."
<Kyral> sander, the Packaging Guide is LaserJock's area
<jjesse> is it on the guide along with the pdf?
<sander> Kyral: http://mdke.blogspot.com/2006/03/pdf-documentation.html -> it was Matthew East (mdke) who created thse pdf's correct?
<Kyral> sander, I dunno
<sander> but ok, if you say so
<Kyral> I have been outta it for the past couple days lol
<jjesse> yes but if they are on the document, doc.ubuntu.com then it is something that laserjock needs to change
<sander> jjesse: I have only read the pdf
<Kyral> and I am not at my normal computer so I'm not checking email
<sander> oh ok
<Kyral> God how much email will I have to download on Sunday...
<jjesse> i had over 600, didn't download for a week
<Kyral> yah
<Kyral> I'm on Spring Break
<Kyral> which == VACATION :D
<Kyral> I mean I'll help out in #ubuntu
<Kyral> but right now its also study time and whatnot
<Kyral> I think I'll start on a Xen Webserver HowTo though
<sander> so should I contact laserjock then, or can you can people put my notification of this spelling error through? to be honest I don't have much time, and I don't like to subscribe to the mailing list
<Kyral> Xen Webserver == Ubuntu Breezy as Domain 0 with the different server components as XenGuests
<jjesse> drop a note to laserjock
<Kyral> so LAMP in Domain 1, MailServ in Domain 2, FTP in Domain 3, etc etc etc
<Kyral> would that be useful?
<Kyral> anyone?
<sander__> hmm, accidentally pressed shift + backspace and Xgl caused me to log out :x
<Kyral> lol
<Kyral> I don't use XGl
<Kyral> it doesn't like me for some reason
<sander__> jesse: how do I contact laserjock then, I don't see him in the channel here?
<Kyral> and anime doesn't play well
<jjesse> drop an email to ubuntu-doc@lists.ubuntu.com
<sander__> hmm ok, that's the mailing list I assume... but if I'm not subscribed, the ML mod will have to approve my e-mail, correct?
<sander__> I mean, it won't take days for a mod to approve my message?
<sander__> Kyral, Xgl is working reasonably on my box, for alpha software then... but you're an anime fan? what series do you watch?
<Kyral> sander__, ohh
* Kyral tries to list off what is on his HDs
<Kyral> Right now on my computer (over 180 GBs)
<sander__> over 180 GB's? that's a lot...
<Kyral> After War Gundam X, Ai Yori Aoishi, Ai Yori Aoishi Enishi, Air, Azumanga Daioh, Love Hina, Love Hina Again, Shuffle, DearS(why do I have this..), School Rumble, Suzuka, Trigun, Cowboy Bebop, Gundam SEED Destiny, Gundam SEED, Turn-A Gundam, Fruits Basket, Gundam Wing, Victory Gundam, Gundam Double Zeta, Inuyasha, .Hack//SIGN, One Piece, Infinite Ryvius, Ah! My Goddess, Rurouni Kenshin, Samurai Champloo, some Excel Saga...
<Kyral> I know I am leaving some out...
<sander__> I like Gundam as well, SEED was good, but SEED Destiny was mediocre... currently I'm following Black Cat and Mai Otome
<Kyral> Destiny was good until Kira took over the show
<sander__> it's a bit unfortunate though that GStreamer in Dapper can't handle H.264 fansubs well, as soon as you use the seek bar it crashes....
<Kyral> I got mine from Seed Fansubs
<Kyral> although I do admit to using w32codecs
<sander__> concerning w32codecs, any way to get it working with GStreamer 0.10?
<Kyral> dunno
<Kyral> I use Xine
<Kyral> and VLC
<Kyral> I ditched GStreamer back in the Hoary days
<sander__> back in Hoary and Breezy I disliked GStreamer as well, but I have to say that it works like a charm in Dapper
<sander__> ok, e-mail is sent... one more question, is it planned to make the packaging guide easily accessible from yelp once Dapper final is released, or will it be hidden somewhere in the Ubuntu wiki?
<sander__> hmm, nevermind, I can already see it in yelp
<sander__> bye all
<jordi> hey
<jordi> mdke: what's the latest version of the docs up for translation? Are they in rosettA?
<jordi> or should we feed my translators something else while rosetta is unfucked?
<robotgeek> jordi: maybe should wait for doc-string freeze
<Burgwork> hmm, secunia rates our weekend fun as "less critical"
<jordi> robotgeek: nod
<jordi> hmm
<jordi> robotgeek: we may actually translate the breezy versions too
<robotgeek> jordi: not too much, slightly over a week to go
<jordi> yeah
<jordi> 10 days
<theCore> hi LaserJock
<LaserJock> hi theCore 
<theCore> I started some work on the appendix. (isn't it bizzare that we start the appendix before finishing the guide? ;)
<LaserJock> hmm, well since the whole thing is sort of bizarre at the moment I think it is pretty normal ;-)
<jjesse> hey LaserJock, someone was talking earlier in the channel about a typo in the packaging guide, did he ever get with you about it?
<LaserJock> hmm, don't think so
<LaserJock> jjesse: do you happen to remember who it was?
<jjesse> LaserJock: no i don't sorry
<mdke_> jordi, I haven't included the pot templates in the source package yet
<jordi> mdke_: where should we fetch the stuff for now?
<mdke_> jordi, nowhere yet, the docs aren't quite ready for translating
<mdke_> jordi, when they are, we'll upload with the pots and I'll post to every mailing list I can think of
<jordi> k
<mdke_> jordi, is that a reasonable plan?
<mdke_> should be next week-ish
<jordi> sure
<mdke_> jordi, cool. there was a post to -translators today you might wanna take a look at re: rosetta
<jordi> it's just that I have a few volunteers waitinf for an assignment
<jordi> let me have a look
<mdke_> basically saying that it hasn't been synched with upstream for ages
* LaserJock feels the whip. "Back to work!" ;-)
<jordi> Serious problems?
<jordi> ohm an
<jordi> I really don't know what to say anymore
<jordi> sigh
<mdke_> well, you could say, "it's gonna be fixed" :)
* jordi uses some social skills magic.
<mdke_> heh
<jordi> there goes
<trappist> I'm editing /ubuntu-doc/kubuntu/switching/C/switching.xml - is this on the list of documents not to pay attention to?  it's sorta "not like" the others.
<trappist> Also I'd like to ask again about unicode punctuation vs. html entities - I brought it up here twice and on the list once, but haven't really gotten a response.
<trappist> and I ran across this -> http://www.dwheeler.com/essays/quotes-in-html.html  and it makes a lot of sense to me.
<LaserJock> yeah
<LaserJock> although I didn't see anything weird in the test pages
<LaserJock> hi jpatrick 
<jpatrick> hey LaserJock 
<jpatrick> how's it going?
<LaserJock> oh, very busy.
<jpatrick> me too
<jpatrick> spent the last 4 hours trying to get amarok-1.4beta2 to package nicely
<LaserJock> ughh
<jpatrick> amarok1.3.8 => amarok1.4-beta2 == big change
<LaserJock> lots of improvements?
<jpatrick> gstreamer0.10!!!!
<jpatrick> ;)
<jpatrick> It's got some nice new things according to the changelog
<LaserJock> cool
<LaserJock> I'm still trying to get the packaging guide going
<trappist> jpatrick: oh, let me know when that's done.  a fatal issue (for me) in beta1 has been fixed, and I've been waiting to test beta2
<jpatrick> trappist: today is your lucky day
<trappist> LaserJock: unicode vs. html entities aren't a recognizable issue when you're just viewing a document.  it gets ugly when you copy and paste or try to parse (and in some cases convert) the document.
<trappist> jpatrick: awesome
<jpatrick> ** please test amarok1.4-beta2 for Kubuntu Dapper x86 packages: http://tiber.tauware.de/~jpatrick/debs/amarok1.4-beta2/ - thanks
<LaserJock> trappist: ah
<LaserJock> trappist: actually I have noticed that when I was pasting from the wiki into Windows once.
<trappist> I notice it pasting into irssi too.
<LaserJock> well, we should definitely try to be as universal as we can
<trappist> yeah there's that too.
<LaserJock> so we basically need to replace all the " and ' ?
<trappist> well that too, actually - that's invalid xml - but I was referring more to stuff that shows up as wacky control characters in vim, and pastes as \uXXXX
<LaserJock> ok, so now I'm confused. What do we need to replace as what?
<trappist> my original point was... open ubuntu/quicktour/quicktour.html in vim and look at the first few paragraphs, and you should see what I was referring to.
<trappist> but additionally things like &, " and ' are invalid xml, but that's a separate issue.
<trappist> youll be impressed.
<trappist> I dunno how that shows up in your irc client, but here it's a mess.
<LaserJock> ok, but is it a problem outside of quicktour.html?
<trappist> I dunno, I haven't looked that hard
<trappist> that stuff is hard to grep for
<LaserJock> the reason I ask is I don't think we use quicktour anymore. I think it was dropped.
<trappist> gah.  do we have a list of stuff like that?  I seem to end up spending a lot of time on stuff we don't use anymore.  maybe the svn tree needs to be cleaned up?
<Kyral> ohh lemme!
<Kyral> Lemme go on a delete spree!
<LaserJock> Kyral: heck no
<Kyral> damnit :P
<LaserJock> trappist: I think it was. I  think we kept it around in case we wanted it again or something. mdke_ would now *hint* ;-)
<LaserJock> trappist: but you can also look at doc.ubuntu.com
<Kyral> Actually there is a program known as Kleansweap that, among other things, seeks and destroys all those pesky Emacs backup files
<trappist> that should be easy with a 'find' oneliner
<trappist> with vim, anyway.  maybe emacs backup files are harder to identify.
<trappist> jpatrick: when I hover over the systray icon the tooltip appears at the top of the screen (when my panel is at the bottom)
<jpatrick> odd
<trappist> yeah all the other ones are right.  no idea if that's a packaging issue.
<mdke_> mm?
<mdke_> summarise scrollback for me?
<jpatrick> new amaroK package
<LaserJock> mdke_: is quicktour.html used anymore?
<mdke_> LaserJock, thanks. No, it's not
<mdke_> sorry trappist 
<trappist> mdke_: how to know which files not to bother with?  basically I wake up in the morning and eeny-meeny-miny-mo a file to work on.
<mdke_> trappist, start with https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/Projects
<mdke_> that _should_ be relatively up to date
<LaserJock> trappist: eeny-meeny-miny-mo on doc.ubuntu.com ;-)
<mdke_> but if you fancy a good project, I think the serverguide is in need of some frenzied section contributions before string freeze
<jjesse> hmm i wonder how up to date that is kubuntu wise ?
<mdke_> jjesse, not too bad AFAIK
<mdke_> jerome updated it recently
<jjesse> hmm just noticed i wasn't subscribed to that page
<trappist> erm.  quicktour is on there and marked as finished.
<mdke_> trappist, gah. that's where the _should_ comes in...
<LaserJock> hmm, how come me and the wiki are out by our lonesome?
<LaserJock> I must have messed up the table when I added the Packaging Guide
<trappist> LaserJock: fixed the table
<trappist> and took care of some word nazi issues
* mdke sighs @ the internet
#ubuntu-doc 2006-03-19
<Burgwork> ompaul, you still working on the FAQ?
<Burgwork> ompaul, oh, wait, did I already move it? (am confused)
<ompaul> I am not, it is not moved :)
<Burgwork> ok, hmm
<ompaul> after I stopped madpilot gave it a once over fixed a couple of bits and I have stayed away from it since
<ompaul> not sure if I can add more value
<Burgwork> ok, I should be able to find time to look at it this week
<ompaul> it is not as meandering at this stage
<ompaul> but where to next :-)
<LaserJock> hi theCore 
<theCore> hi LaserJock
<theCore> LaserJock: did you work on the guide?
<theCore> s/k/ked/
<LaserJock> theCore: yeah, a bit
<LaserJock> I think doc.ubuntu.com has what I have more or less
<theCore> I didn't work on the guide, but instead on something closely related to it: packaging
<LaserJock> cool
<theCore> I trying to make a package that would configure Postfix and Fetchmail for Gmail. I'm kinda going nowhere but at least I'm trying
<theCore> does ubuntu is down?
<theCore> *.ubuntu.com
<LaserJock> could be. there was an email that it was going down for a while. I can't remember when though.
<theCore> nice it works!
<theCore> (not the package but the config)
<robotgeek> i can't belive this. http://www.ubuntuforums.org/showpost.php?p=821554&postcount=8
<robotgeek> in eed to post to clarify
<theCore> mdke_: ping
<robotgeek> theCore: hmm, i have configured fetchmail with gmail, also with postfix
<robotgeek> theCore: nbsmtp was easier to setup than postfix, however
<theCore> I'm still trying to get postfix working with smtp.gmail.com
<robotgeek> theCore: do you want a link to a howto, i used it almost step by step
<theCore> robotgeek: yeah, please
<robotgeek> theCore: http://souptonuts.sourceforge.net/postfix_tutorial.html
<theCore> LOL
<theCore> same as mine
<robotgeek> yeah, install the package ca-certificates to reduce pain and suffering
<theCore> robotgeek: can't send email though
<theCore> robotgeek: are you able to ?
<robotgeek> theCore: i just use nbsmtp now. it is much easier to get working
<robotgeek> are you using port 587?
<theCore> no 995
<robotgeek> theCore: 995 is for fetching, not sending
<robotgeek> for pop, basically
<theCore> robotgeek: how do you deal with the mailing list ?
<robotgeek> theCore: i setup procmail, i don't use it now, however
<robotgeek> http://robotgeek.org/wiki/Main/PerfectEmailSetup . i am working on it :)
<theCore> thanks for the tips
<theCore> robotgeek: I will probably try to improve it
<robotgeek> theCore: okay, let me give you a edit password then :)
<theCore> oh :)
<theCore> robotgeek: do you have my email ?
<robotgeek> theCore: i /noticed you, check your server window
<theCore> oh I see (boy I'm still IRC noob;)
<robotgeek> theCore: we all are, when we start out. we learn :)
<robotgeek> hey bhuvan 
<bhuvan> hello robotgeek
<robotgeek> mdke_: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IrcRules says "bad solutions such as using install-css.sh from libdvdread" (seveas said that). We however suggest that method for getting dvds to work. we should investigate  
<LaserJock> robotgeek: where?
<robotgeek> helping: be helpful
<LaserJock> but what doc do we recommend that?
<robotgeek> LaserJock: in both the desktop guides
<robotgeek> video, dvd section
<LaserJock> I see it now
<LaserJock> hmm, so maybe we should ask what the "correct" method is
<robotgeek> yeah, i want to grab hold of seveas, he said that it was broken in dapper or something to that effect long time ago
<Madpilot> robotgeek, Seveas is generally on early morning his time, about 0300 or so your time (~0100 here, Pacific Standard)
<robotgeek> Madpilot: maybe i'll catch him on my way out
<Madpilot> you can always /memo him and ask him to email you or the docteam list
<robotgeek> yeah, maybe i can do that too
<Madpilot> Could someone please sanity-check my lastest updates to UDG, the "getting to #ubuntu w/ XChat-Gnome" part?
<LaserJock> I pinged him in -devel but I havn't got an answer
<Madpilot> I'm not sure it's as clear as it could be, and I"m not in Dapper right now...
<Madpilot> it's only about 5am in .nl right now
<LaserJock> Madpilot: any reason to do XChat-Gnome over Xchat?
<Madpilot> LaserJock, in Dapper XChat has been pushed into Universe, X-G is now in Main
<Madpilot> frankly, I really dislike X-G, but it's there... :P
<LaserJock> Madpilot: hmm, ok. I thought they were both in Main
<Madpilot> XChat is in Main in Breezy, but it's not for Dapper
<LaserJock> I see, well that at least makes sense.
<Madpilot> I think I offended one of XChat-Gnome's developers over the weekend, by being a bit too blunt about that app's shortcomings... https://launchpad.net/malone/bugs/34715
<theCore> viva Irssi ...
<Madpilot> bleh. XChat is a UI disaster, but IMO so is XChat-Gnome, in the opposite direction...
<Madpilot> it's a major over-reaction to XChat's let's-let-it-all-hang-out uber-configurability
<LaserJock> my gosh, they obviously haven't used any KDE apps
<LaserJock> XChat isn't all that configurable
<Madpilot> by current Gnome standards I guess it is :P
<Madpilot> I usually like the "sane defaults" theory of Gnome, but with XChat-Gnome they've killed all the configurability without providing sane defaults...
<LaserJock> yeah, I really have a hard time with Gnome standards. I'm not sure if I agree with it philosophically
<Madpilot> Most of the time it works. Epiphany, SoundJuicer, Gnome-App-Install - they're all brilliant. The XChat-Gnome folks have just gone a bit overboard, I think.
<LaserJock> to me it really just seems dumbed down. I mean they usually have pretty good defaults (better than KDE to me) but once you try to think outside their box ...
<Madpilot> KDE always strikes me as too much an XP-clone - which I know is unfair, but that's how it feels & looks to me
<LaserJock> yeah, in some ways it does but you can configure it to be whatever you want. that is what I like about it
<LaserJock> but I do like the general look-n-feel of gnome
<LaserJock> but I don't like most Gnome apps
<LaserJock> because once I need to configure them I find I can't
<LaserJock> there is no control
<LaserJock> anyway, time for bed
<LaserJock> cya guys
<Madpilot> later
<Madpilot> OK, enough commits from me for one evening :P
<Madpilot> hi highvoltage 
<nate_> ok ok, maybe someone here can help, anyone know of any good docs for ubuntu's implementation of d-i and specifically the setup of preseed files?
<robotgeek> Madpilot: that is so unfair, kde is highly configurable. xp if you want xp, os x if you want os x
<Madpilot> robotgeek, I didn't say it was a fair impression of KDE, but it's always been mine :P
<robotgeek> Madpilot: i thought so to intially, but now i am pretty impressed by how much i actually do with the gui, without loss of configurability
<robotgeek> s/to/too
<theCore> Mar 14 00:39:54 localhost postfix/smtp[13181] : CC8712D02BC: to=<avassalotti@gmail.com>, relay=none, delay=31, status=deferred (connect to smtp.gmail.com[72.14.205.109] : Connection timed out)
<Madpilot> hi jsgotangco 
<jsgotangco> hey
<Madpilot> dsas, you patch got committed w/ my commits a few hours ago
<dsas> thanks madpilot
<Madpilot> dsas, np, I was planning exactly that change already, you saved me some work
<dsas> That's good, it occured to me it should be done on the way to work yesterday for some bizarre reason.
<Madpilot> yeah, I spent last night playing with a Flight5 LiveCD and making notes for the UDG - having to install XChat-gnome was one of them
<dsas> looking at things you've used Xchat-Gnome and the other use is Xchat-GNOME, shouldn't they be the same? Yours looks nicer but the other way is how it's done in the menus.
<Madpilot> Gnome in all CAPS?
<Madpilot> hadn't noticed
<Madpilot> ah, so it is, it's XChat-GNOME in Breezy's Add Apps too - I'll fix that later, I guess
<dsas> some applications have the information on starting them in the file, others are defined in ubuntu/menus/C/, should i move all apps into ubuntu/menus/C ?
<Madpilot> if you really want to - I've been doing the new ones I add, but leaving most of the rest
<dsas> hmm, ok. I didn't know whether or not there was an underlying reason which meant it was something we should e
<dsas> whoops, 'something we should be doing.'
<robotgeek> dsas: thanks for the reminder :)
<dsas> robotgeek: no problem, tbh I'd not looked at the kubuntu docs, so I don't know whether or not the 'problem' exists there.
<Madpilot> as far as I can see, it's useful for two reasons: for the apps that get mentioned repeatedly (Firefox, say) and for the stuff that's likely to change before Dapper release
<robotgeek> dsas: well, most of the stuff applies to kdg too :)
<dsas> Madpilot: oh, ok. Not a priority then.
<dsas> robotgeek: oh ok, I've not looked at them tbh. I've been meaning to try kubuntu since the breezy released and still haven't got round to it :)
<robotgeek> dsas: get it now :) 
<dsas> robotgeek: maybe tonight, my laptop doesn't have a cd drive. I've not saw kde for about 3 years I think :)
<robotgeek> dsas: well, i moved over to kubuntu from ubuntu. it si very nice. :)
<dsas> robotgeek: hmm, I struggle to imagine not using gnome now, I was a kde fan years ago but I struggle to imagine not using gnome now.
<dsas> wow, it's early. I'm repeating myself.
<robotgeek> dsas: i mostly use cli, but all the apps i use are kde. amarok/k3b/akregator
<Madpilot> robitaille, you staying up for the community meeting, or catching the 2nd one tomorrow?
<robitaille> I'm going to bed soon...  :)
<Madpilot> likewise, I don't work Tues. morning so I'll join the 2nd meeting @ 1000 our time
<robitaille> Maybe I'll lurk for the meeting tomorrow.  It's not always obvious to be on IRC from work
<Madpilot> heh, just be good at swapping desktops or alt+tab :P
<robotgeek> irssi with grey colors looks like coding :P
<robitaille> I can't use irc directly from work.  So I ssh into my home machine to do it.  But sometimes the kids are in Windows to play games, thus I lose my irc access :)
* Burgundavia is glad to have a Linux workplace
<robotgeek> robitaille: install ssh server on windows also?
<robitaille> Burgundavia:  I use Linux at work...government firewall blog IRC and I haven't bothered finding a way around the restriction
<robitaille> s/blog/block
<Madpilot> Burgundavia, you staying up or going to the mtg from work?
<Burgundavia> robitaille: you should be able to tunnel irc through port 80, but I never got it to work when I worked for microservew
<Burgundavia> I will go to the meeting from work
<robotgeek> i think it's a forgone conclusion, the meeting?
<Burgundavia> there are influential people on both sides
<Madpilot> it should be interesting, regardless. Anyway, my cold virus and I need sleep. Later, all
<robotgeek> later
<Burgundavia> I have to finish the gnome 2.14 press release
<robitaille> Burgundavia:  I'm too lazy...I connect to home when I can, or piggyback on the university wireless via the classroom network one room up from my office.  Or I simply read the logs afterward and do actual work at work :)
<Burgundavia> bah, work
<robitaille> pays the rent...actually I like spending my days coding in fortran
<mdke_> robotgeek, how is that a bad solution?
<mdke_> (dvdcss)
<robotgeek> mdke_: i don't know, i have to ask seveas
<mdke_> robotgeek, apart from anything else, it is the recommended debian way, and is on RestrictedFormats
<robotgeek> mdke_: yes, and it also works
<mdke_> indeed
<mdke_> I hate it when these irc people get all arrogant and dismissive :D
<robotgeek> i was just surprised that ircrules page suggests that it is a bad solution, i have no idea why
<robotgeek> it might just easier to edit the wiki page, but seveas usually knows what he is talking about :)
<mdke_> ok
<robotgeek> i'll grab him today :)
* mdke_ sighs at rob
<robotgeek> mdke_: ping
<mdke_> robotgeek, yeah
<robotgeek> http://paste.ubuntu-nl.org/10208
<robotgeek> my conversation with seveas in #ubuntu-offtopic , just now
<mdke_> man
<mdke_> he is so arrogant
<robotgeek> heh
<mdke_> i'm not ditching realplayer
<robotgeek> anyways, that is the info we need i guess
<mdke_> no.
<mdke_> there are two solutions for realplayer, one is to install using real's binary, the other is the package
<mdke_> the latter is recommended on RestrictedFormats
<mdke_> and I also prefer dvdcss from the debian source to unofficial packages versions
<mdke_> if he thinks it is wrong, he can tell us why, and I'll listen
<robotgeek> yes, but it apparently is going to go away
<mdke_> robotgeek, from the debian package?
<robotgeek> yes, that is what he claims
<mdke_> i'd like to see evidence of that
<mdke_> anyway, talk later, gtg to work
<bustacap> haha I just got back from work
<bustacap> :D
<Burgundavia> I need to sleep
<bustacap> the Aussie/Asian SABDFL meeting is due to start in 30 mins..
<Burgundavia> night all
<robotgeek> night Burgundavia 
<jsgotangco> hmm
<jsgotangco> mdke_: is the plain text in our FF frontpage bluish???
<mdke_> jsgotangco, black
<robotgeek> mdke_: meeting underway
<jsgotangco> they look bluish on my lcd
<jsgotangco> probably because of the size
<mdke_> could be
<mdke_> try resizing them
<rob> its amazing how civil it is in there
<mdke_> robotgeek, got work to do, sorry
<robotgeek> mdke_: oh okay, stay safe :)
<jsgotangco> its still bluish
<jsgotangco> heh
<jsgotangco> its not as black compared to google..probably the fonts
<jsgotangco> we started civil so people just became civil too
<rob> its also amazing that +m hasn't had to be used.. credit to the community I say
<poningru> they need someone in meeting....
<poningru> nm
<jsgotangco> bustacap: namaan?
<bustacap> yep..
<bustacap> :)
<bustacap> naaman.
<jsgotangco> please stop this thread before it becomes a mini flamewar
<robotgeek> jsgotangco: the one on sounder?
<jsgotangco> yes
<bustacap> what thread is that? (URL please)
<rob> jsgotangco, its not a flamewar, I'm just offering my thoughts and someone took it to heart
<jsgotangco> point taken and you have valid arguments and i said "before"
<rob> just because I'm a member and every other joe bloggs who blogs is not doesn't mean I can't still offer constructive criticism
<jsgotangco> i agree on that, i did something like this before, but not on doco
<jsgotangco> i think its was for a11y
<rob> I didn't out right say "Ubuntu is crap", I just said that this simple thing should change, and gave reasons why
<jsgotangco> do it in en_US next time heh
<jsgotangco> kidding
<rob> nice pickup
<mdke_> I have a different definition of "constructive" criticism that doesn't include criticism done in a deliberately provocative and inflammatory way
<rob> its a simple question, the fact that you would get so heated about it suggests there is substance behind it
<rob> its not like I'm burning flags to get my point across, as was done recently here in aus
<mdke_> there may or may not be substance behind it
<mdke_> but implying that Ubuntu doesn't care about documentation is just ridiculous
<mdke_> you must be able to see that
<rob> so you disagree that the use of Documentation should be encouraged to the fullest extent?
<mdke_> no
<mdke_> i disagree that you make wide and unjustified assertions
<mdke_> when making a simple point
<rob> the adminstrators of the web site obviously consider documentation important, just none other then the wiki existed when they first created the site
<mdke_> yes
<rob> this legacy link needs to be changed to reflect the documentation project as a whole
<mdke_> you continue to misunderstand me. I'm not saying you are wrong, I'm saying that you make your point in a totally disproportionate and provocative way
<rob> thats the point I'm making, and I beleave its a relevent way of making it
<mdke_> yes I know
<mdke_> but you are wrong, it is not a relevant way of making it
<rob> the question isn't "Ubuntu doesn't care about its docs, so why should we?" the question is "Does ubuntu care about its docs?" and if it does, why does it bury it down three clicks
<rob> quite simply, I'm happy for the administrators of the web site to prove me wrong
<mdke_> it's not a question at all
<mdke_> you're saying "the missing link demonstrates that ubuntu doesn't care about documentation"
<rob> no I'm not
<mdke_> and that defies any logic
<rob> I'm saying "Does the missing link demonstrates that ubuntu doesn't care about documentation?"
<mdke_> haha
<rob> s/demonstrates/demonstrate
<mdke_> it's a rhetorical question and you know it, but let's leave it there
<rob> its not a statement, its a question designed to cause discussion and hopefully a solution
<mdke_> ok, well you've seen mine and corey's point.
<rob> your putting words into my mouth
<mdke_> I disagree
<rob> what, exactly, is your problem with such a question? 
<rob> note I said question, not statement
<rob> if you took the time to properly read the whole article you would see infact I say that Ubuntu clearly does care, and that this link should be changed to show the average user that
<mdke> putting that question implies that the answer is no. Especially since it is wholly unrelated to the point you are making.
<mdke> I've read the article
<mdke> but the title is more prominent than the rest of the article
<mdke> that's what a title is
<rob> its kind of pointless arguing about the intent and meaning of an article with the person who wrote it, don't you think?
<mdke> rob, i disagree entirely. the meaning of an article depends on the reader
<mdke> it's like saying "Does Ubuntu care about its downloads?" and then making the point that there is no first level download link
<mdke> it's a good point, but the question doesn't follow
<rob> re-read the second last paragraph
<rob> "We all know the opposite is true, but to the new user the Ubuntu web site is currently quite intimidating."
<mdke> I've made my point on that
<rob> the "intent" of the article is clearly written in the last paragraph also
<rob> I've lost count of the amount of times I'm mentioned to users and authors of articles alike that the official docs exist and the response been one of surprise
<mdke> yes, that's part of your point on the absence of the link
<rob> good night mdke, nice chatting to you :)
<mdke> good night
<highvoltage> win 11
<nate_> hey documentation guys, I have a request for some documentation on creating dummy-packages
<nate_> i don't know if you take requests ;)
<mdke> sure we do, especially if they include the text
<mdke> if you mail the list with more details, that might be the best idea
<nate_> ok
<bustacap> hey guys - updated UserDocumentation on the Wiki..
<mdke> mgalvin, hiya. Is there a special reason you've got screenshots in both ubuntu/images/en and ubuntu/images/C ?
<mgalvin> mdke: when i went to commit them i looked in both of those dirs... they both had the images so i put them in both places (i was not sure which was actually being used :-/) please feel free to remove what we don't need
<mdke> mgalvin, ok, I think en shouldn't be there. I'll look into it, cheers
<mdke> mgalvin, so you're working on some releasenotes in svn?
<mgalvin> mdke: i started to take a crack at them... jerome, cory and i were talking about them the other day and we decided I would start working on them in svn...
<mgalvin> we were also thinking of building both the html and moin markup for it so we could copy/paste it onto the wiki
<mgalvin> this is just for the finial release notes
<mgalvin> those alpha reviews i have been doing will still be worked on in the wiki
<mdke> cool
<mdke> will you liase with mdz and co on the releasenotes?
<mgalvin> yup, will do
<mdke> cool
<mdke> are you working on it in docbook xml?
<mgalvin> yea, following same format and procedure as the previous ones... for now i really just copied breezy-release-notes.xml to dapper-release-notes.xml
<jjesse> that's how i did it for kubunut release notes if i recall correctly :)
<mgalvin> :)
<mdke> cool
<mdke> you know the website will take html? moin format isn't necessary
<jsgotangco> hey guys
<mgalvin> even better
<mgalvin> hey jsgotangco
<mgalvin> mdke: i will try that first then, just gen the html and copy/paste
<mgalvin> mdke: jsgotangco may also help out with the release notes as well
<jsgotangco> well i did wrote the last one for breezy
<jsgotangco> it *was* hard
<trappist> say.  is there any reason to keep the .pot files in the svn repo?  if these are generated files and not to be mucked with, if nothing else it sould save a little bandwidth and disk space to svn rm them.
<jsgotangco> they're not that big compared to the unused images right?
<trappist> mostly true, I think - I'm arguing for cleaning up the repo in general.  I'm all for doing away with those too.
<mgalvin> +1 for spring cleaning
<trappist> works for me
<jsgotangco> well not really cleaning
<jsgotangco> i'd rather branch the old stuff
<jsgotangco> might be useful at one point
<mgalvin> right of course, always save old stuff... you never know when we might need it
<trappist> it'd still be there as an old rev
<jsgotangco> trappist, yeah we branch after every release then clean up then merge back to trunk
<mgalvin> and the old branches, e.x. breezy still have the old stuff
<jsgotangco> i believe we currently have 2 branches
<jjesse> should be trunk and breezy
<mgalvin> trappist: it might be best to propose a cleanup process and such and then being the cleanup process after the dapper release
<mdke> leave the pots alone please
<mgalvin> this way we could create the dapper branch then clean up what is necessary
<trappist> where is the document that describes the markup we use, and when to use what?
<trappist> or are we all using some cool docbook editor and I'm just using vim like a chump?
* mgalvin uses gedit or vi
<trappist> mgalvin: how do you decide what markup to use for, say, an application name?
<mgalvin> trappist: well since there is no guide for that (that i know of) i generally follow the conventions of the doc i am working on
<mgalvin> based on what is already in it
<trappist> gotcha.  since that doesn't seem to be consistent among the docs, maybe this new meta-document should be on our to-do list.
<trappist> for dapper+1 of course :)
<mgalvin> yup :)
<mgalvin> we should have a doc describing our conventions
<mgalvin> right now i think and valid doc-book is game
<jjesse> isn't that the styleguide or ??
<trappist> I thought the styleguide was more about linguistic conventions
<trappist> but maybe it does belong in there
<mgalvin> right the style guide says nothing about docbook tags
<jsgotangco> its supposed to be, but it'll make a the styleguide a chapter or something then another chapter dedicated to docbook conventions
<jsgotangco> in effect, creating an ubuntu documentation guide
<trappist> I like that
<trappist> do we have some kind of lint checker? or is there a way for me to see how my changes will appear in the wiki?
<mdke> trappist, there is a preview button under the edit box
<trappist> I'm editing with vim in the repo - should I be doing the wiki thing instead?
<mdke> trappist, what wiki are you talking about?
<mdke> the repo is a separate thing
<trappist> I'm looking at http://doc.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/serverguide/C/firewall-configuration.html and editing generic/serverguide/C/network-applications.xml
<jjesse> build the guide locally
<mdke> ah, that's not a wiki
<mdke> trappist, do "make server" from the ubuntu/ folder, or simply open the xml in yelp
<trappist> oh you're right, it just looks a lot like the wiki :)
<trappist> mdke: that's what I was looking for.  Thanks.
<mdke> there's also a validation script in the top level of the trunk repo.
<trappist> excellent
<mdke> oh actually, you can do "make server" in the generic folder too
<mdke> it calls the same target
<trappist> is there something as cool as yelp that serves as an editor?
<trappist> some things have not turned out as I expected and it's hard to see why
<mdke> fraid not
<mdke> the validate script will tell you what is wrong with the code
<LaserJock> conglomerate is suposed to be close but I crashed a couple of times when I tried to open up some of the docs in the repo. They are too much for it I think ;-)
<trappist> yeah it can't seem to handle network-applications.xml
<trappist> anyway I'm filling in the blanks on the firewall section, which is all blanks.  of course I have to cover iptables, but how deep should I go and at what point do I defer to the awesome docs that already exist on the intarweb?
<mdke> your own judgment I'd say, I'm just happy to have blanks filled in
<mdke> bhuvan might be able to give better indication
<trappist> found a couple of java docbook editors on sourceforge that might not suck once I figure them out
<mdke> it's all about gedit
<LaserJock> *cough* vim *cough*
<trappist> yeah, looks like gedit is a text editor, and I'm pretty much a vim guy.  I just want a live preview to help me get acquainted with the markup.
<LaserJock> I usually just use yelp for that. Not perfect for sure. Especially since I edit and preview on 2 different machines ;-)
<mdke> yelp is good
<LaserJock> but it isn't very "live"
<LaserJock> actually, I really wish there was a reload button
<trappist> yeah I was just looking for that.
<mdke> ctrl R
<trappist> oh cool
<mdke> >_<
<trappist> why can't they just use f5 like all the cool guys
<trappist> or even ctrl-l like vim
<mdke> gnome uses ctrl r
<trappist> I see.
<LaserJock> or put a button or at least have it in the menu
<mdke> users don't need to refresh yelp
<mdke> only doc writers :D
<mpt> F5 is for turning the volume up
<jjesse>  no Fn+Page Up is for turning up the volume
<trappist> I think it's ctrl-alt-meta-shift-escape-pagedown-enter to refresh in emacs
<robotgeek> LaserJock: about the previews, i use html so that i can refresh easily
<trappist> is that ok?
<trappist> I can write html with my butt cheeks.
<LaserJock> robotgeek: well, it is easier for me to use yelp than to build the html and view it
<trappist> I know maybe half a dozen docbook markup tags
<trappist> so I'm sure I'm using some of them inappropriately
<LaserJock> well, you still need to know the docbook 
<LaserJock> to make the html
<mdke> trappist, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/DocbookTags
<trappist> awesome.  I was trying to ask for that earlier :)
<LaserJock> mdke: what? that isn't linked to from the other Docbook wiki pages
<LaserJock> I didn't know that existed
<mdke> other docbook wiki pages?
* mdke goes home
<LaserJock> mdke: wiki.ubuntu.com/DocBook
<LaserJock> mdke: and DocBookReference
<LaserJock> mdke: DocbookTags isn't linked from any of the docteam wiki pages, e.g. DocumentationTeam/GettingStarted
<trappist> dangit I screwed up the xml so bad yelp can't open it now.
<jjesse> trappist: revert :)
<trappist> not if I don't have to :)
<trappist> got it.  spurious </para>.
<Madpilot> trappist, the validation script sometimes gives better results than yelp's error messages
<trappist> Madpilot: the validation script already produces so much output from "listitem" tags it doesn't like in this particular file I was saving it for a last resort
<robotgeek> checkXML is sometimes better than the validate.sh, lot slwoer
<robotgeek> trappist: no, we are not forzen yet. not for another 10 days
<trappist> ossum
<Madpilot> I'm still unclear as to how this six-week delay is going to affect our timetables...
<trappist> Madpilot: are you on #ubuntu-meeting?
<Madpilot> yes
<Kyral> Its like a FREE FOR ALL!!
<trappist> oh there you are :)
<trappist> yeah it's a mess
<robotgeek> Madpilot: techboard decides
<robotgeek> the previous meeting was so much more civil
<Madpilot> robotgeek, ah OK
<robotgeek> Madpilot: i am considering making a progress report of sorts for the doc team
<Madpilot> cool
<Madpilot> we should start work on the 3rd edition of our Docteam News 
<trappist> that would be very helpful to me, as I have lots of time and not much info on what needs what kind of work
<Madpilot> trappist, have you found the existing status reports for our docs?
<robotgeek> trappist: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/Projects
<trappist> yes, but it's apparently out-of-date enough that the specific document I'd been working on and was told was no longer used was still listed there
<Madpilot> trappist, which one? There are a few old docs still hanging around
<trappist> so I'm not sure how much to trust it
<trappist> Madpilot: quicktour
<Burgwork> quicktour currently has no lead
<Burgwork> I might pick it up again
<trappist> my personal primary goal is to fix spelling/grammar/style issues.  secondary is to fill in blanks on topics I'm sufficiently familiar with.  any tips on what docs need the most of that kind of attention would be most helpful.
<Madpilot> trappist, our major docs for this release are the two Desktop Guides, the Server Guide, and the Install Guide
<trappist> cool, I guess I phrased my question correctly this time :)  that's what I'm looking for.
<robotgeek> Madpilot: who is working on the install guide?
<Madpilot> hmm, nobody - my mistake. :P
<Madpilot> I meant the Packaging Guide - sorry
<Madpilot> quicktour seems to have been overtaken by sabdfl's About Ubuntu stuff?
<robotgeek> http://doc.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/install/ 
<LaserJock> Kyral was working on the install guide I think
* Kyral blinks
<Kyral> I though someone took i over
<Kyral> I mean the threads on the ML suggested as such
<Madpilot> on our project page the Install Guide is still listed as none/help wanted/no work done yet...
<trappist> with 10 days left until freeze it would be useful to make this info easy to find and up to date, so nobody's wasting time or getting their changes stepped on
<Kyral> ...did you swipe this from the Debian Install Guide
<Madpilot> trappist, stick with the two Desktop guides & the Server Guide, we *know* those will be shipped & are being worked on
<jjesse> agreed Madpilot
<LaserJock> trappist: and if you have some spare time after those you can ask me about the Packaging Guide ;-)
<trappist> Madpilot: right, I just don't want to be proofreading stuff somebody else is rewriting, if it can be avoided
<trappist> LaserJock: can do
<Madpilot> trappist, I can only speak for the Ubuntu Desktop Guide, but from my point of view major writing on UDG is done - mdke might have some plans, but I don't currently
<robotgeek> trappist: the "awaiting review" stuff will not be touched. 
<robotgeek> same on kdg, except that there are few sections which need love
<trappist> robotgeek: I don't see anything awaiting review
<robotgeek> http://doc.ubuntu.com/kubuntu/status/kdg-report.html
<robotgeek> more than 80% is :)
<trappist> ah.
<trappist> oh, that's a great page
<Madpilot> http://doc.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/status/dg-report.html <- UDG's version of the same page
<trappist> obviously I'm still finding my way around
<Madpilot> trappist, follow the Status links from that table on /Projects
<trappist> right
<trappist> anybody available to review my serverguide patch?
<robotgeek> trappist: i dunno anything about servers and firewalls, sorry
<trappist> robotgeek: if you could peek at the non-content stuff... like, should I have updated the status tags, used different markup, etc.
<robotgeek> trappist: okay, sure
<robotgeek> trappist: please look at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/Contribute for naming conventions
<trappist> gotcha
<trappist> another good doc I haven't seen before
<robotgeek> trappist: maybe you should bookmark https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/GettingStarted 
<robotgeek> trappist: it does not validate?
<trappist> it didn't validate before I started :/
<robotgeek> trappist: err, it validates when i did?
<trappist> ok, let me check that out...
<trappist> yep it does.  I must have done something before I got started and forgot to revert back to the repo copy...
<trappist> k, got it validating.  will now peruse some docs and see that it conforms in other ways... thanks :)
<robotgeek> cool
<jjesse> what was that link again for desktop guide status?
<jjesse> robotgeek: you are the lead on that right?
<robotgeek> yessir
<robotgeek> http://doc.ubuntu.com/kubuntu/status/kdg-report.html
<jjesse> robotgeek: email address ?  i have an email from soemone in hungray that wants to help out on kubuntu docs and i would like to includee you in on it as you are lead :)
<robotgeek> jjesse: venkatvc at ubuntu.com
<jjesse> sent
<robotgeek> thanks jjesse 
<jjesse> np robotgeek thanks for all the work you do, it means al ot to not be the lone wolf in kubuntu doc land
<robotgeek> jjesse: i've kind of decided to stay on the documentation side of stuff. not motu stuff for me
<robotgeek> lack of documentation on anything pisses me off now. 
<jjesse> grin :)
<jjesse> robotgeek: to me that has always been the problem with Open Source software
<robotgeek> jjesse: i found out the hard way last year, during my thesis work. lol
<robotgeek> is the Ubuntu book downloadable etc? 
<jjesse> robotgeek: i haven't heard about that yet
<robotgeek> okay
<robotgeek> jjesse: can you join #ubuntu-meeting?
<jjesse> sure whats up?
<robotgeek> jjesse: do you know anything about translations and stuff
<jjesse> not really, i know that the docs get put into rossetta
<_nagyv> hello! I would like to help you out in the Kubuntu docs, but I am quite new to this type of helping. Is there an easy way to check out the Users Guide? Is there any recommended DocBook editor for 1.0 users?
<jjesse> this will be the first release for kubuntu docs in rosetta
<robotgeek> _nagyv: quanta is good, so is kate
<jjesse> _nagyv: wiki.ubuntu.com/DocteamGettingStarted is a good place to look
<_nagyv> is it a problem if I am not a native english speaker? I would prefer to write in english,but it can need corrections. Hungarian translation is a bit too big to be worthwile.
<robotgeek> _nagyv: sure, i can review and upload
<jjesse> _nagyv: anything you send to the ubuntu-doc mailing list we will review before committing
<IceTox> Anyone here have ever tried running xpde at ubuntu?
<Burgwork> IceTox, no, but this is not the correct channel. Best to try #ubuntu
<IceTox> tried
<IceTox> sorry
<IceTox> I've got the solution tho :-)=
<IceTox> thanks
<Burgwork> hmm, there is not ubuntu.com/com
<Burgwork> make that /about
<Burgwork> I think I will create a quicktour like doc, in moin, and then move it there
<LaserJock> Burgwork: thanks for being at the TB meeting
<Burgwork> np
<LaserJock> Burgwork: I couldn't make it and I was hoping to be there
<mdke_> how does one make a statement to the TB about the freeze?
<mdke_> "The TB is asking for a statement from us"
<LaserJock> mdke_: they have there own private ML
<Burgwork> we write a statement and one of us can present it to them. We can also mail them beforehand
<LaserJock> mdke_: could I possibly suggest we do b) ?
<LaserJock> I know that the Packaging Guide isn't very important to users but I would really like to see it in Dapper
<mdke_> LaserJock, the alternative would be to freeze docs at different times
<mdke_> translation of the desktop/server guides is more important than for the PG, so it could start earlier
<mdke_> whereas polish on the PG is more important, so it could freeze later
<LaserJock> I think 2 week extension would be OK for the PG
<LaserJock> but I'm not sure if I can make the current freeze
* LaserJock mumbles about devs not having enough time to write docs
<mdke_> ok, we'll discuss on list for a while
<mdke_> Burgwork, when do they want the statement?
<robotgeek> mdke_: i like the freeze docs at different dates idea
<mdke_> robotgeek, will the KDG be ready in a week?
<LaserJock> but I agree that more time need is needed translations
<Burgwork> mdke_, they gave no time, but I think we can come to an agreement pretty quickly
<LaserJock> Burgwork: I agree
<mdke_> me too
<LaserJock> I just think b) is better than a) for me
<robotgeek> mdke_: yes, i will have to get rid of the sections which are not complete/need verification.
<Burgwork> I just wasn't prepared to sign off on anything without other doc team members
<mdke_> I'm glad you didn't
<LaserJock> robotgeek: would 2 extra weeks be enough?
<mdke_> 6 weeks is way too long
<LaserJock> I agree
<mdke_> LaserJock, what about no change for the docs except for the packaging guide, which gets 2 more weeks?
<mdke_> I'd like to hear bhuvan's opinion too though on the server guide, and jjesse on other kubuntu docs
<robotgeek> LaserJock: i don't know if it would help. my request for help mail has been in there for about a week with no response, i am not sure if 2 more weeks is the right answer
<LaserJock> k
<LaserJock> mdke_: your suggestion is definitely ok with me.
<LaserJock> I just don't want to get anybody mad at me because I *get* two extra weeks ;-)
<robotgeek> LaserJock: no, take your time. i expect to learn to package from that one :)
<mdke_> i have a further alternative
<mdke_> two extra weeks for all docs, and we start translating slightly earlier than that
<mdke_> then update the translation templates at freeze
<robotgeek> mdke_: i have no idea about details of the translation process, could you explain slightly?
<mdke_> we create templates (pot files) and upload them to the archive. these get imported to rosetta, translators translate them, we download the translated version and convert it into xml, ship it
<mdke_> during that process, if docs change slightly at an early stage, it's no big deal to reupload, the new strings appear in rosetta
<mdke_> but late changes are a Bad Idea
<mdke_> hence the freeze
<robotgeek> maybe it's a good idea for translators to start with sections that are "complete"
<mdke_> there's no _easy_ way of doing that
<mdke_> the best plan is to get most things complete, then start them off
<mdke_> I'd be fine with 2 weeks slippage
<mdke_> let's see what others say
<LaserJock> I agree with mdke_ though that 6 weeks is way to long
<mdke_> I'm off to bed
<mdke_> see ya later
<LaserJock> cya mdke_ 
<LaserJock> theCore: hi, how's it going?
<theCore> LaserJock: pretty good, you?
<LaserJock> theCore: ok, very busy.
<LaserJock> theCore: are  you going to be able to send me any diffs in the next day or 2?
<theCore> LaserJock: maybe
<LaserJock> theCore: ok. I'm going to try to start at the Introduction and work my way through.
<LaserJock> theCore: I want to get at least the Introduction and Getting Started sections pretty much set today
<theCore> LaserJock: btw, why we need a specific kubuntu section ? 
<LaserJock> theCore: well, I'm going to see if we need that in the end. There are some differences but I'm not sure if they are big enough to justify a whole section
<LaserJock> mostly there are a couple patches for using cdbs and you need to be aware of the kde dependencies
<theCore> LaserJock: the guide render quite differently on KDE ... 
<LaserJock> I'm going to bug jpatrick or maybe raphink about it to see if we need a secion or not
<LaserJock> theCore: does it? good or bad?
<theCore> LaserJock: it's outdated
<LaserJock> ah, yeah that is because the kubuntu-docs package is a little older than the ubuntu-docs package
<LaserJock> they take their svn snapshots at different times
<theCore> LaserJock: who is Ankur Kotwal? 
<theCore> LaserJock: the original author ?
<LaserJock> Ankur wrote the "Intro Developer Doc" that I started with
<LaserJock> he recently contacted me and wants to work on the Packaging Guide
<LaserJock> he was going to merge some of his material with ours for the example sections
<LaserJock> but I haven't heard back from him
<theCore> LaserJock: can you take a seconds, and see the guide on 
<theCore> kubuntu?
<LaserJock> not really. I don't have a kubuntu setup at the moment. Could you (or robotgeek maybe ) put a screenshot somewhere?
<robotgeek> LaserJock: screenshot of what?
<LaserJock> robotgeek: the Packaging Guide from KDE?
<robotgeek> LaserJock: okay, from khelpcenter?
<theCore> LaserJock: I got one
#ubuntu-doc 2007-03-12
<LaserJock> nixternal: around?
<nixternal> yup
<LaserJock> nixternal: did you see mdke's question to me about what items we want on the front page?
<nixternal> I seen something about it, but I didn't notice the specific items
<nixternal> are Ubuntu docs getting installed as well?
<LaserJock> yes
<nixternal> ok, it would be nice to kind of keep their layout, but add like the 3 links to the Edubuntu docs
<nixternal> Handbook, Release Notes, and School Advocacy?
<nixternal> that is my opinion on it
<LaserJock> what about About Edubuntu?
<nixternal> ooh, forgot that one, yes that too
<LaserJock> School Advocacy is a little odd
<nixternal> then remove that. I wasn't sure on its status
<LaserJock> well, I just think the name is weird
<nixternal> I think for Feisty+1, Edubuntu docs needs to go TBH, and either keep the handbook for PDF/HTML for say the Wiki or somewhere else, or get rid of it
<nixternal> they need to hurry up and open up translation for Feisty
<nixternal> we are coming down to a month left
<nixternal> I can already see the doc bugs, "docs are translated for my language, or some sections are and some aren't"
<LaserJock> it's not much use to translate stuff if you're just going to have to translate it again
<LaserJock> ok, so do you know how About Edubuntu and Release Notes are doing?
<nixternal> I never messed with them, so they are probably the same as they always have been
<LaserJock> which means they need to be rewritten :-)
<nixternal> don't know about rewritted but possibly updated
<nixternal> can we do that with string freeze
<LaserJock> well, I think it'd pretty large reworking
<LaserJock> those docs are at least 2-3 releases old
<nixternal> actually with About Edubuntu you are looking at possibly and hours worth of work
<nixternal> and?
<nixternal> of about an hours worth of work
<nixternal> http://doc.ubuntu.com/edubuntu/about-edubuntu/C/
<nixternal> brb
<nixternal> k, back
<LaserJock> ok
<LaserJock> so do you have any time to look at About Edubuntu and Edubuntu Release Notes?
<LaserJock> nixternal: ^^
<nixternal> yes
<nixternal> I am working on Mailody docs for KDE, just getting it started really. I am going to go get some ice cream and then I will work on Edubuntu docs. sound good?
<LaserJock> good
<nixternal> good deal, I shall return then and get to work on it
<nixternal> should I work in trunk or feisty branch with this?
<nixternal> I think working out of the feisty branch will be fine
<nixternal> LP isn't even open for translations yet
<LaserJock> yeah
<LaserJock> I think Edubuntu won't get much translation this go around
<LaserJock> I think it's more important for use to get decent docs
<nixternal> hiya jjesse
<jjesse> hiya rich
<jjesse> i think i just sent the last changes/fixes to the book
<jjesse> i hate hotel living :(
<jjesse> nixternal: i noticed you didn't have to change the whole universe/multiverse thing
<nixternal> jjesse: because when you told me about it, I went ahead and made all of the fixes then
<jjesse> cool
<jjesse> trying to figure out how i want to setup my laptop
<LaserJock> hmm
<LaserJock> decisions decisions ;-)\
<jjesse> yeah unfortnately for work i  need windows
<jjesse> so i need to calculate how i'm going to partition things
<boredandblogging> hi guys
<boredandblogging> can anyone point me to a non-technical description of Linux and Ubuntu? I would like to put it on our LoCo page.
<LaserJock> the ubuntu.com website doesn't have enough
<boredandblogging> more along the lines of if someone doesn't quite know what linux is
<nixternal> LaserJock: when pronouncing Edubuntu is it ed-oo-boon-too or edu-boon-too
<nixternal> the proper way I guess
<LaserJock> hmm, I think the 1st one
<nixternal> think? :)
<nixternal> hey, they dropped support for PowerPC didn't they?
<LaserJock> official support
<LaserJock> they are still making .isos
<nixternal> hrmm, I didn't see any for 7.04
<LaserJock> I think are there
<LaserJock> hmm, I don't see Herd 5
<LaserJock> maybe it didn't make Herd5
<LaserJock> but the will be spinning CDs
<nixternal> ok, that is all I needed to know
<nixternal> I am almost done with the about doc
<LaserJock> I think you could just say that PPC is community supported
<nixternal> none of the Edubuntu devs are paid are they?
<nixternal> Canonical just employs Ubuntu devs, and 1 Kubuntu dev
<LaserJock> no
<LaserJock> Edubuntu technically has more than Kubuntu
<LaserJock> ogra is Canonical
<nixternal> K, well that is 1 :)
<LaserJock> well, there's also RichEd and willdvl and rodrigo
<nixternal> OK, true :)
<LaserJock> but ogra is currently the only Edubuntu dev
<CIA-4> Ubuntu Documentation: nixternal feisty * r3968 /edubuntu/about-edubuntu/C/about-edubuntu.xml: complete - review
<nixternal> LaserJock: there is a new shell to work with, go through and see if you need more added/changed. I am thinking a little more "Education" info possibly
<nixternal> hrmm, the release notes shouldn't really be packaged should they? I thought that was what the website was for?
<LaserJock> I feel like they should be both, but maybe that's just me
<nixternal> Ubuntu and Kubuntu aren't shipping release notes
<LaserJock> well, then we can not if you want
<nixternal> I swore the release notes were supposed to get absorbed into some Ubiquity slideshow
<nixternal> LaserJock: it is up to you, the almighty Edubuntu and MOTU man
<LaserJock> bah
<nixternal> haha
<LaserJock> we should ask ogra about ubiquity
<LaserJock> nixternal: hahaha @ planet
<Admiral_Chicago> i saw that in akregator
<Admiral_Chicago> expected a graphic...
<nixternal> :)
* Admiral_Chicago waves frantically for nixternal's attention
<Admiral_Chicago> :(
<LaserJock> man, totally ignoring you
<Admiral_Chicago> I should just call his phone, wake him up at 4 AM.
* Admiral_Chicago waits 3 hours
<LaserJock> do it!
<Admiral_Chicago> nixternal: i really wasn't going to but LaserJock told me to...
<Admiral_Chicago> its out of my hands now...
<LaserJock> lol
<Admiral_Chicago> 1...6...
<Admiral_Chicago> nah i wont because I am asking him a favor
* nixternal shuts off phone
* LaserJock must find out nixternal's address
<nixternal> 1600 Pennsylvania Ave
<Admiral_Chicago> lol
<LaserJock> haha
<LaserJock> you wish
<nixternal> 1:30 already
<nixternal> argh
<crimsun> (nuts, man. That would be a horrendous address.)
<LaserJock> you could do it!
<crimsun> imagine the junk mail that goes _there_
<LaserJock> I want to see Ubuntu dev /President
<LaserJock> no kidding
<LaserJock> I'm guessing the bug reports can be a little more urgent as well ;-)
<crimsun> err, I have lecture in <4 hours
<crimsun> blah for not sleeping
<Admiral_Chicago> \o?
<Admiral_Chicago> err.
<Admiral_Chicago> \o/
<LaserJock> crimsun: what class?
<crimsun> operating systems
<LaserJock> do you like teaching it?
<Admiral_Chicago> fun. they offered that at my school, didn't take it..yet
<crimsun> yeah, quite fun even if the hour is ungodly
<Admiral_Chicago> 8 AM?
<crimsun> yeah
* LaserJock wishes he could teach CS classes
<LaserJock> I don't want to get another PhD though
<LaserJock> one would be quite sufficient
<crimsun> c'mon, everyone loves insanity
<Admiral_Chicago> 8 AM, i forget that hour existed before this semster
<LaserJock> the dept. sys admin ( a CS grad student) wants to teach a "CS for Chemists" class with me
<LaserJock> but we'd need to get people interested
<crimsun> pizza, semester/quarter stipends, and promises of removing FORTRAN should do it
<Admiral_Chicago> FORTRAN rocks
<LaserJock> almost everything we do is Fortran
<crimsun> it does, but not for Ubuntu ;)
<LaserJock> but we need info on shell scripting and stuff like using python to analyze data
<LaserJock> the sys admin wrote a simple bash/perl script and saved a grad student like a weeks worth of work
<LaserJock> just needed to randomly move some H atoms
<Admiral_Chicago> Fortran rocks is what i wanted to say
<LaserJock> in it's own way
<LaserJock> not so great for GUIs, IMO
<nixternal> fortran? get out of here
<nixternal> c++ rocks
<nixternal> ocaml
<nixternal> stuff like that
<nixternal> Python (once I learn it better)
<Admiral_Chicago> definetly not, we have a GUI problem that I'm hacking on right now...that's my break
<LaserJock> fortran is easy and fast
<nixternal> LaserJock: the 1970's called and said they want their programming language back
<LaserJock> but I prefer my Fortran as a python library
<Admiral_Chicago> our grid computer running FORTRAN will destrou you
<nixternal> oh I forgot, you are a scientist
<LaserJock> yes
<Admiral_Chicago> LaserJock: what field?
<nixternal> fortran was probably the first thing I started to learn in the early 80's
<LaserJock> Physical Chemistry
<nixternal> nuclear physisisisist at area 51
<LaserJock> lol
<LaserJock> close
<Admiral_Chicago> P Chem, cool.
<nixternal> BizMgt > all of um
<Admiral_Chicago> i half expected "psychology"
<nixternal> well LaserJock I am thinking of PhD, either CompSci (doubt it), Electrical Engineering (possible), Business (more than likely)
<Admiral_Chicago> haha. that's not a science...(people get really mad when I say that)
<Admiral_Chicago> do business nixternal!
<nixternal> more than likely I will
<Admiral_Chicago> then go around trying to get people to let them operate on you
<nixternal> I already have 2.5 degrees in it
<LaserJock> yuck
<Admiral_Chicago> I'm doctor nixternal. let's see that pancreas.
<nixternal> hahaha
<LaserJock> business is for type A personalities with control issues ;-)
<LaserJock> j/k
<nixternal> that's me!
<Admiral_Chicago> lsl
<nixternal> lsd
<Admiral_Chicago> err lol...dang qwerty keyboards...
<nixternal> now it is qwerty's fault, last week it was dvoraks
<nixternal> I seen a dvorak keyboard with my very own eyes finally, and I must say, absolutely retarded
<Admiral_Chicago> dude I didn't bring my keyboard home
<nixternal> just get the happy hacker, caps become cntrol and so on
<nixternal> dvorak almost wants to be an emacs or vi keyboard
<nixternal> and people who use keyboards are stupid, microphone. I sit here and yell "LOL" all day long
<Admiral_Chicago> dude, those text editoes hate dvorak
<nixternal> jeesh
<crimsun> yes, they certainly do
<crimsun> I remember using dvorak for the first time with vim
<crimsun> that was a nightmare
<Admiral_Chicago> yea I just stay away from vim / emacs...thats the final frontier to all out geekdom
<Admiral_Chicago> that and Star Trek
<nixternal> I don't like star trek, and Kate > Emacs && Vim
<LaserJock> gedit FTW!
<nixternal> never
<nixternal> I can validate, build, test, whatever w/o ever leaving Kate
* crimsun resists the urge to make a precedence comment about rich's statement
<nixternal> figured as much
<Admiral_Chicago> oh thats where my phone is..
* nixternal holds tongue
<mdke> morning
<bhuvan> morning mdke
<bhuvan> mdke: shall i remove incomplete sections in branches/feisty server guide?
<mdke> bhuvan: yes please
<bhuvan> ok mdke
<bhuvan> mdke: i modified generic/serverguide (yet to commit); should i modify generic/server as well?
<CIA-4> Ubuntu Documentation: bhuvan feisty * r3969 /generic/serverguide/C/ (8 files):
<CIA-4> Ubuntu Documentation: Feisy fix for server guide:
<CIA-4> Ubuntu Documentation:  * Remove unused sections
<CIA-4> Ubuntu Documentation:  * Fix the status
<mdke> bhuvan: we need to update generic/server with the latest strings from serverguide, basically just copying over all the relevant files. You can do that if you like!
<mdke> i have to go to work, cya later
<bhuvan> ok, i'll do it; thank you
<CIA-4> Ubuntu Documentation: bhuvan feisty * r3970 /generic/ (3 files in 3 dirs):
<CIA-4> Ubuntu Documentation: Make the server guide document compatible for Feisty Fawn.
<CIA-4> Ubuntu Documentation: * generic/serverguide/sample/sources.list
<CIA-4> Ubuntu Documentation: * generic/serverguide/C/package-management.xml
<CIA-4> Ubuntu Documentation: * generic/libs/generic.ent
<CIA-4> Ubuntu Documentation:  Change the reference from dapper to feisty
<CIA-4> Ubuntu Documentation: bhuvan feisty * r3971 /generic/server/ (13 files in 2 dirs):
<CIA-4> Ubuntu Documentation: Synchronize generic/server with generic/serverguide directory. Copy over
<CIA-4> Ubuntu Documentation: the files from generic/serverguide to generic/server and remove
<CIA-4> Ubuntu Documentation: unused/incomplete files.
<CIA-4> Ubuntu Documentation: Suggested by: mdke
<CIA-4> Ubuntu Documentation: philbull feisty * r3972 /ubuntu/add-applications/C/add-applications.xml: universe/multiverse now enabled by default, closes bug 91355
<Ubugtu> Malone bug 91355 in ubuntu-docs "Universe and Multiverse enabled by default" [Medium,In progress]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/91355
<CIA-4> Ubuntu Documentation: philbull feisty * r3973 /ubuntu/musicvideophotos/C/musicvideophotos.xml: Fixes one small typo (string change, sorry)
<CIA-4> Ubuntu Documentation: philbull feisty * r3974 /ubuntu/ (10 files in 8 dirs): Update section statuses (no string changes)
<CIA-4> Ubuntu Documentation: philbull * r3975 ubuntu/add-applications/C/add-applications.xml: Merge changes to add-applications from branches/feisty
<nixternal> Laser_away: have you had a chance to look over the About Edubuntu page yet?
<Laser_away> nope
<nixternal> roger. I was hoping it built already on doc.ubuntu.com but it hasn't
<Laser_away> I just saw an edubuntu MIR approval
<nixternal> it would be nice to be able to initiate that cron job
<nixternal> ooh, cool, is it edubuntu-docs?
<Laser_away> edubuntu-docs MIR that is
<nixternal> sweet!
<nixternal> woohoo, translations are open
<nixternal> now, how do we upload for translation? :P
<LaserJock> I think they should come from the *-docs packages
<nixternal> yes, as long as the pot files are included
<mdke> nixternal: we need to do some manual things with the rosetta guys, I'm on it
<bodhi_zazen> hi all :0
<LaserJock> hi bodhi_zazen
<bodhi_zazen> LaserJock thanks for your help the other night :)
<LaserJock> bodhi_zazen: no problem
<bodhi_zazen> I was told this channel is not so active ...
<LaserJock> it depends
<LaserJock> "active" is sort of a relative term
<bodhi_zazen> he he ..
<bodhi_zazen> Well I am going to try to raise the level of awareness of the wiki on the fourms
<bodhi_zazen> wanted to let you know, I am not wanting to re-create the wheel
<bodhi_zazen> I want to add guidence for new users
<bodhi_zazen> I would like to integrate rather then re-create of up root ;)
<bodhi_zazen> *or
<LaserJock> it seems to me that we've always had a bit of a weird/strained relationship with the forums
<LaserJock> I'm not sure why exactly
<bodhi_zazen> sorry to hear that...
<LaserJock> except that forums people seem to not want to work outside the forum
<LaserJock> and doc people seem to not want to work on the forums
<LaserJock> as a gross generalization
<bodhi_zazen> One of my gaols when I "applied" for leadership of the beginners team was to bring the wiki to the noobs so to speak :)
<bodhi_zazen> I see my team as a potential bridge
<bodhi_zazen> we are at #ubuntuforums-beginners
<bodhi_zazen> and we are just starting
<bdmurray> bug 67022 is against the installation-guide is that a docteam package?
<Ubugtu> Malone bug 67022 in installation-guide "example-preseed.txt is .gz" [Undecided,Unconfirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/67022
<LaserJock> bdmurray: I don't think it is
<LaserJock> usually cjwatson takes care of it, I *think*
<bdmurray> LaserJock: okay, cool.  I just wanted to make sure.
<Ubugtu> New bug: #91749 in kubuntu-docs (main) "file confict with ubuntu-docs" [Undecided,Unconfirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/91749
<LaserJock> uh oh
<nixternal> mdke: come back :)
<LaserJock> nixternal: did you see my conversation with ogra WRT release note?
<nixternal> not yet sweety, was it good?
<nixternal> ;p
<nixternal> dude, it is in the 60's here today, I got to finally take the bike out today and ride
<nixternal> LaserJock: so we are putting them on the wiki, groovy
<LaserJock> so we should take them out of the svn repo
#ubuntu-doc 2007-03-13
<nixternal> I will do in a bit, time for some bbq burgers
<jjesse> hmmm no comments from editor tonight so that must be good
<jjesse> i'm considering the book done :)
<nixternal> woohoo
<nixternal> all Feisty docs complete!
<nixternal> well, I still have to do the release notes, but that is for kubuntu.org
<jjesse> cheer
<jjesse> congrats
<nixternal> congrats to you as well
<nixternal> LaserJock: how do you think I should go about fixing that bug?
<nixternal> renaming the firefox-index in kubuntu do something else?
<Admiral_Chicago> nixternal: the kubuntu-docs apt error?
<nixternal> yes
<nixternal> bug 91749
<Ubugtu> Malone bug 91749 in kubuntu-docs "file confict with ubuntu-docs" [Undecided,Unconfirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/91749
<LaserJock> how was it done before?
<Admiral_Chicago> yup, I can repoduce
<nixternal> LaserJock: it was never named firefox-index
<nixternal> all I have to do is change firefox-index.html to something else
<nixternal> firefoxindex.html maybe
<LaserJock> but I don't understand what happened to cause this
<nixternal> LaserJock: I changed the firefox homepage
<nixternal> it used to be the about-kubuntu
<nixternal> but I created a new one emulating those found in the other projects
<nixternal> so all I have to do is change the name in postinst and it will work
<nixternal> which I can do seeing it isn't a string
<LaserJock> I see
<nixternal> so naming it to something different will close that bug and fix the issue
<nixternal> I can fix it, create the debdiff and then see what Riddell says about it
<nixternal> kfirefox-index.html
<Admiral_Chicago> nixternal: can you explain what you are doing to me
<Admiral_Chicago> fwis, that bug is on our end.
<Admiral_Chicago> oh wait, different bug
<Admiral_Chicago> you are talking about the conflicts right?
<nixternal> correct. my latest package I created I made a new firefox-startpage
<nixternal> yes, conflicts
<nixternal> in my debian/postinst file I had it symlink to firefox-index.html which is what ubuntu-docs package uses. So you can't symlink like that in the same directory
<nixternal> so just by changing the name, it will create a new symlink and fix the issue
<nixternal> I am building it now and will install it shortly to test
<nixternal> Admiral_Chicago: you have that issue as well you said?
<nixternal> if you do, I want you to test my package and see if it fixes the issue
<Admiral_Chicago> nixternal: can do
<Admiral_Chicago> nixternal: there is another bug, Fx opens its own splash screen and about kubuntu page.
<nixternal> link me
<nixternal> ahh
<Admiral_Chicago> which is a bug on the Mozilla Team end, we are fixing it tomorrow
<nixternal> ya, nothing on my part
<nixternal> why tomorrow?
<Admiral_Chicago> i thought you were talking about that one
<nixternal> you do realise the freeze is on this week due to beta release
<Admiral_Chicago> our packager is asleep
<nixternal> jeesh, you need more packagers then
<nixternal> although mozilla packagers tend to be picky
<Admiral_Chicago> i saw the bug in the Mac Store today
<Admiral_Chicago> a guy looked at me like I was crazy because I had Gmail and bug reports for 50 straight emails
<Admiral_Chicago> on a massive monitor
<Admiral_Chicago> either way, that bug is being taken care of by the end of tosay
<Admiral_Chicago> today*
<nixternal> heh, LP has my name pasted all over the kubuntu-docs now
<Admiral_Chicago> yea, I keep getting kubuntu doc emails and more KDE related stuff
<Admiral_Chicago> LP has a smart tracker that beings to notify you of stuff you work on right?
<nixternal> so it seems
<nixternal> argh, forgot to rename it in the rules file as well
<nixternal> I hate debian/postinst
<Admiral_Chicago> nixternal: did you update it already
<Admiral_Chicago> apt is showing me an update...
<nixternal> not yet, postinst is being a pig. /etc/alternatives can be a pain
<nixternal> LaserJock: you have anyways to tweak postinst so I can get it to actually change the darn the link in /etc/alternatives?
<Admiral_Chicago> okay, what version am I using then...
<nixternal> I have tried changing the priority up, and it didn't work
<Admiral_Chicago> its showing me Candidate: 7.04-2
<nixternal> that is the latest
<Admiral_Chicago> that is broken.
<nixternal> I am working on 7.04-3
<Admiral_Chicago> the one you are working on -3 will fix this dependency issue and install
<nixternal> actually, my current 7.04-3 package may work for you, but it doesn't for me just yet
<nixternal> actually it won't work for you either
<Admiral_Chicago> haha, upload it to your server whenever and ping me about ti
<Admiral_Chicago> it*
<nixternal> roger
<LaserJock> nixternal: what do you mean?
<nixternal> LaserJock: well it seems that update-alternatives is set to manual mode
<nixternal> that is killing me
<LaserJock> hm?
<nixternal> if update-alternatives was set to --auto, then it would grab the highest priority item
<LaserJock> the current update-alternatives line doesn't work?
<nixternal> LaserJock: http://paste.ubuntu-nl.org/10139/
<nixternal> no it doesn't work
<nixternal> it doesn't change the link in /etc/alternatives
<nixternal> but update-alternatives --display firefox-homepage shows the kfirefox-index.html and labeled "best" but it doesn't select it due to the manual update-alternatives setting used
<LaserJock> I have a priority of 41 here
<LaserJock> I'll brb
<nixternal> LaserJock: is it OK to use --set with postinst for update-alternatives?
<LaserJock> I don't really know
<LaserJock> but I don't see why you can't use the previous postinst
<nixternal> LaserJock: I can, but it breaks the link from /etc/alternatives because it will not *automatically* use the link provided in postinst
<nixternal> let me grab another package and see how the postinst is configured
<mdke> morning
<Madpilot> morning mdke
<mdke> hi Madpilot, how goes it?
<Madpilot> good - middle of the work-week for me.
<mdke> ah
<Madpilot> I'm also trying to study, and keep allowing myself to be distracted by IRC ;)
<mdke> quite right
<Madpilot> heh. some of the docs I need I can only get online, and online is not a good place for sustained concentration
<mdke> what are you studying?
<Madpilot> for the Commercial Pilot Lic. written test, which is a monster
<mdke> ah right
<mdke> good luck with that
<Madpilot> thanks. I'm far readier for the CPL Flight Test than I am for the written - but I  have to have the written passed before I can do the flight test...
<mdke> damn rules
<Madpilot> ya. The worst thing about that written-before-flighttest rule is that it's new as of last summer - if I'd done my CPL a year or two ago it would be someone else's problem, not mine...
<Madpilot> the perils of procrastination
<mdke> :)
<mdke> nixternal: I've asked carlos to sort out the translations for kubuntu-docs, it requires some manual touches.
<mdke> -> work
<AndrewB> Is there any way to show on my user wiki, all the other wiki's I have contributed on? FullSearch works, but not for help.ubuntu  any way of doing so?
<nixternal> mdke: rock on. Just let me know the manual work. Right now I need to fix this one bug (conflict between kubuntu ff startpage and ubuntu ff startpage)
<Ubugtu> New bug: #91927 in kubuntu-docs (main) "Old doc directories not empty/deleted on upgrade" [Undecided,Unconfirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/91927
<Ubugtu> New bug: #91936 in ubuntu-doc "dpatch instructions in packaging guide are misleading" [Undecided,Unconfirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/91936
<LaserJock> mdke: around? our docs don't use xchat at all do they?
<LaserJock> mdke: in dapper or edgy
<bodhi_zazen> quick question ~ if one wanted to add screen shots to a wiki page, is there a central repository on your server or link from external ?
<Burgwork> bodhi_zazen: upload them to the wiki page itself
<Burgwork> under the drop down menu, choose add attachments
<bodhi_zazen> thanks
<Burgwork> bodhi_zazen: did you get it?
<bodhi_zazen> Yes ...
<bodhi_zazen> thanks :0
<bodhi_zazen> Not to toot my own horn ...
<bodhi_zazen> But I am the team lead on the Beginners Team
<bodhi_zazen> Arising from the forums
<bodhi_zazen> :)
<Admiral_Chicago> nixternal: did you build that doc package?
<nixternal> shush
<Admiral_Chicago> just wonderin cuz irssi disconnected
<Admiral_Chicago> kk, ping me if you have it
#ubuntu-doc 2007-03-14
<Ubugtu> New bug: #92076 in kubuntu-docs (main) "kubuntu-docs will not upgrade" [Undecided,Unconfirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/92076
<mpt> mdke, https://blueprints.beta.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/topic-based-help may need updating the status
<poningru> when is the freeze for feisty gonna happen?
<poningru> I wanna add bunch of stuff for serverguide
<nixternal> poningru: the freeze happend 5 days ago
<nixternal> :)
<poningru> D*MN
<nixternal> yup
<nixternal> we had a couple of extra days only because LP didn't open for translations
<poningru> there goes my dream of hardened portion to the guide :(
<poningru> adding*
<poningru> nixternal: you think I can convince md*e to give me exception?
<poningru> if I write it up till end of this week
<nixternal> I highly doubt it, but it is always worth a try
<poningru> crap :(
<mpt> "insert a keyword"? oy
<CIA-4> Ubuntu Documentation: nixternal feisty * r3976 /kubuntu/ (11 files in 5 dirs): fixed errors to close 2 bugs - 91749 and 91927 - no strings changed at all
<CIA-4> Ubuntu Documentation: nixternal * r3977 kubuntu/ (11 files in 5 dirs): merging feisty changes for packaging
<LaserJock> go nixternal go
<Admiral_Chicago> even better, we will see if it actually works..
<Admiral_Chicago> nixternal:  /var/cache/apt/archives/kubuntu-docs_7.04-2_all.deb
<Admiral_Chicago> err, actualy erroe E: Sub-process /usr/bin/dpkg returned an error code (1)
<Admiral_Chicago> I know that -3 fixes the error with -2 but i did an update before I updated and still tries to do -2
<nixternal> LaserJock: man, that was a pita, but it works like a super champ
<nixternal> that is the most beautiful package ever :)
<nixternal> it detects other doc packages, and when uninstalled will revert back to other installed firefox-homepages
<nixternal> it doesn't conflict
<nixternal> I love it!
<nixternal> dude, I am now the update-alternatives master!
<CIA-4> Ubuntu Documentation: nixternal feisty * r3978 /kubuntu/debian/dirs: we don't need that
<CIA-4> Ubuntu Documentation: nixternal * r3979 kubuntu/debian/dirs: and we don't need that either
<Admiral_Chicago> have any ideas about my error richard?
<nixternal> what error?
<nixternal> I just fixed that
<nixternal> that is the same as bug 91749
<Ubugtu> Malone bug 91749 in kubuntu-docs "file confict with ubuntu-docs" [High,In progress]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/91749
<nixternal> and bug 91927
<Ubugtu> Malone bug 91927 in kubuntu-docs "Old doc directories not empty/deleted on upgrade" [High,In progress]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/91927
<Admiral_Chicago> wth, candidate is still -2
<nixternal> yes
<nixternal> I just now finished -3 and will create a debdiff here shortly
<Admiral_Chicago> uploaded, not commited
<Admiral_Chicago> dammit, i thought it was in the repos already
<Admiral_Chicago> grrrr.
* Admiral_Chicago stops playing with APT, returns to graphic work
<nixternal> wo0t
<nixternal> 14k debdiff, nice and small
<LaserJock> 14k?!?
<nixternal> very small ;p
<Ubugtu> New bug: #92157 in kubuntu-docs (main) "kubuntu-docs fails to install (dup-of: 91749)" [Undecided,Unconfirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/92157
<avno> How do I participate in a System Documentation translation team...?  What is the appropriate link in the Rosetta website?
<Ubugtu> New bug: #92227 in ubuntu-doc "Wrong url for Scribus in ubuntu-docs/office for Feisty" [Undecided,Unconfirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/92227
<nixternal> mdke: I get the kubuntu-docs package fixed up so it doesn't conflict with any other docs right, it is a sweet package now :)  Well, it gets uploaded, and breaks the build server!
<nixternal> haha
<nixternal> damn the luck
<nixternal> btw, what needs to get done manually? how do I get the firefox index for kubuntu translated as well? and I need a .desktop file translated as well
<etchian_> How many people are part of your documentation team, overall?
<nixternal> etchian_: quite a few, only a handful really active right now though
<etchian_> is that 10, 100 or 1000?
<dsas> etchian_: there's probably less than 10 active.
<nixternal> 20 at the most, less than.......what dsas just said
<etchian_> So who writes the doc then?  Canonical?
<nixternal> etchian_: nope, hopeless people like us
<nixternal> well at least I am hopeless, I would rather not speak on everyone's behalf
<etchian_> So you mean you have a team of about 10 people to write the whole stuff.  Wow.
<etchian_> Ever thought of changing your documentation team approach in the wiki?
<LaserJock> heh
<LaserJock> we do what we can
<LaserJock> if you have a better idea we're all ears :-)
<etchian_> just a sec
* nixternal is listening while trying to study
<LaserJock> nixternal: did you catch the doc stuff from the Edubuntu meeting
<nixternal> kind of. I can't figure out what LTSP docs he is talking about
<nixternal> that would be bad if people are writing docs and not sharing here
<LaserJock> nixternal: that stuff sbalneav wrote
<LaserJock> nixternal: ogra said it's not there
<nixternal> it is there, everything that he wrote and put on HedgeMage's server is in our docs
<nixternal> unless he has been writing behind the scenes
<etchian_> What I am trying to understand, nixternal, is how can one help without having to deal with all these "ja buts" on the wiki about the documentation.
<nixternal> ja buts? that is a new one to me
<nixternal> hehe
<etchian_> It leaves the impression that unless you really are wiz-guru crack and a very good writer you better abstain.
<nixternal> etchian_: that would be the furthest from the truth, take me for example
<LaserJock> etchian_: where do you get that impression?
<nixternal> there is no doubt our wiki docs need to be updated (2yr+ in age)
<etchian_> I read the wiki documentation - learn the style, learn to communicate, learn to be concise, know the other pages so you don't repeat.
<etchian_> Join a team (and how is somewhat evasive), fill those in progress, done, flag, "in approbation" (that was another term, but I forgot).
<etchian_> In the end, I just figured it would be simpler to make my own blog.
<etchian_> How many people react like me.  Looks like a lot, from the doc member numbers you are giving me here.
<LaserJock> hmm
<LaserJock> I just got an account and started editing
<LaserJock> not much to it
<dsas> maybe we should just have "it'd be nice if you read this stuff, but if you can't be bothered just start writing"
<etchian_> That's what I usually do.  Then I get noticed because I tend to be consistent, then... and the whole process develops.
<LaserJock> well, I personally don't want people to working on the wiki if they aren't going to write anything decent
<LaserJock> because then we have to go fix it
<etchian_> And I acknowledge that it is a very difficult job you are doing.
<LaserJock> it's mostly just time consuming
<LaserJock> because, as you said, we don't have a lot of people
<etchian_> We're back to :  better be sure you make a good job before doing anything.  It's a circular thing.
<etchian_> OK.  Fair enough. I was just curious.
<LaserJock> well, I'm just saying we need to "try" to have some sort of quality threshold
<LaserJock> but maybe the docs aren't very clear that it's a pretty low bar
<LaserJock> we certainly don't want to scare people off
<etchian_> Well, if you are difficult to approach you will continue seeing good documentation being developed outside the Ubuntu mother-ship.
<LaserJock> are we difficult to approach?
<etchian_> Yes.
<LaserJock> I think of the doc team as being very approachable
<LaserJock> the wiki is open to all
<LaserJock> we have open communications
<LaserJock> we encourage contributions
<LaserJock> I'm not quite sure why we'd be unapproachable :(
<etchian_> bodhi_zazen, hi.
<etchian_> How is your team coming along, bodhi_zazen?
<bodhi_zazen> etchian_, I am quite happy with the team
<etchian_> How many did you get so far?
<bodhi_zazen> I am starting to get them to work on FAQ and learn their way arrount the wiki
<etchian_> From the forum material, or from something else?
<bodhi_zazen> Strting with the forums ...
<bodhi_zazen> *starting
<etchian_> I see.  Just curious, what about the other bunch of people working on forum.  Are they wiki-ing the same material?
<bodhi_zazen> UDSF ?
<etchian_> Yes.
<bodhi_zazen> UDSF seems to concentrate on the how-to 's
<bodhi_zazen> user submitted how-to's that is :)
<etchian_> I see.
<etchian_> I visited the forum, last night.  At least your section, and the doc section.
<bodhi_zazen> :)
<bodhi_zazen> Thank you for visiting
<etchian_> Well, I could not visit #ubuntu-beginners, so I visited the forum.
<bodhi_zazen> LOL
<bodhi_zazen> #ubuntuforums-beginners
<bodhi_zazen> #ubuntu-beginners has been re-directed to #ubuntu
<etchian_> Yes, I have seen that. The first time, I thought I was missing a bolt in my brain.
<etchian_> The second time, I realized it was not to be.
<bodhi_zazen> Sorry for the confusion ...
<etchian_> If you invite somebody to contact you today, where would that be?
<bodhi_zazen> you are welcome to #ubuntuforums-beginners any time :)
<bodhi_zazen> I usually invite follks to the irc ...
<bodhi_zazen> is that what you are asking ?
<etchian_> You beginner pages clearly says that to reach bodhi_zazen, join #irc-beginners.
<bodhi_zazen> Oh nooooooooo .
<bodhi_zazen> Which page ?
<etchian_> Oh yesss, lol.
<etchian_> I am looking for it.  I have to many Ubuntu wiki pages open, lol
<bodhi_zazen> wiki page or forums ?
<bodhi_zazen> I got it, thanks :)
<etchian_> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Beginners/Team?highlight=%28Beginners%2F%29 https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Beginners/Team?highlight=%28Beginners%2F%29
<bodhi_zazen> refresh your page, should be fixed :)
<bodhi_zazen> thanks for that
<bodhi_zazen> #ubuntuforums-beginners
<etchian_> NP.
<etchian_> Anyway, thank you for the information, people.
#ubuntu-doc 2007-03-15
<bodhi_zazen> etchian_ you are welcome to come on over any time :)
<mdke> nixternal: not sure about the firefox page. For everything else, you just wait
<etchian_> Tx, bodhi_zazen
<bodhi_zazen> LOL, I should be thanking you for bringing that wiki page to my attention :)
<LaserJock> hi mdke
<LaserJock> are you really up? it's gotta be really late or really early
<etchian_> Well, I was reading the wiki...
<mdke> LaserJock: going to bed now
<LaserJock> mdke: do you still need a list of Edubuntu topics for yelp?
<mdke> LaserJock: yep please, with scrollkeeper ids if possible
<LaserJock> mdke: ok, I'll get that cleared up and email you
<mdke> thanks
<mdke> I thought there would just be one
<mdke> how many are there?
<LaserJock> well, About Edubuntu and the Edubuntu Handbook for sure
<LaserJock> we also have a short sort of advocacy/marketing type doc in the repo
<LaserJock> as well as Release Notes which we are going to remove
<LaserJock> the advocacy doc would be similar to the About Edubuntu I suppose
<mdke> we haven't got about ubuntu in the list for Ubuntu, on the basis that it isn't Help
<mdke> you could maybe think about something similar, just have it in the menu...
<mdke> anyhow, shoot me an email
<LaserJock> in the gnome menu?
<mdke> yes
<LaserJock> ahh, not sure how hard that'd be
<LaserJock> I'll ask ogra and get back to you
<mdke> I assumed it was there already
<LaserJock> no
<mdke> ok
<LaserJock> so far Edubuntu menus and help have been entirely Ubuntu
<mdke> I'll wait for your email, no immediate rush anyhow, it's not a string break
<mdke> good night
<LaserJock> this is the first release that'll have any sort of Edubuntu branding for docs
<LaserJock> cya
<jjesse> wow trying to move from one laptop to another is a pain, especially when you have 5 virtual machines :)
<LaserJock> lol
<jjesse> seriously don't know what i'm going to do :)
<jjesse> 4 hours left on my transfer
<jjesse> but i love the resolution
<jjesse> !beryl
<jjesse> doh wrong one
<jjesse> nixternal: ping
<jjesse> nixternal: you are doing 3d right?
<jjesse> ok got beryl to work on my laptop, it looks great
<CIA-10> Ubuntu Documentation: mdke feisty * r3980 / (19 files in 19 dirs): updating pot templates, some new strings
<CIA-10> Ubuntu Documentation: mdke feisty * r3981 /debian/changelog: changelog entry
<mdke> crap, ubuntu/windows/C/windows.xml isn't working very well
<mdke> mpt: about that. At the moment we've simply imported wholesale a few of the chapters from the "Switching from Windows" guide, but it isn't working
<mdke> mpt: for a start, the chapter on migrating cross refers heavily to the chapter on "preparing", which we've omitted
<mdke> mpt: your ideas about how to solve that are appreciated!!! :)
<mdke> and anyone else's too
<mpt> mdke, has anyone translated it yet?
<CIA-10> Ubuntu Documentation: mdke feisty * r3982 / (4 files in 4 dirs):
<CIA-10> Ubuntu Documentation: * fixing invalidity in administrative.xml - string freeze
<CIA-10> Ubuntu Documentation: exception, sorry but it's unavoidable
<CIA-10> Ubuntu Documentation: * removing pot template for switching to windows - this is not to be
<CIA-10> Ubuntu Documentation: translated
<mdke> mpt: no
<mpt> mdke, so are there any administrative problems with breaking string freeze in that case?
<mdke> mpt: no, it's bad enough that if we do it quickly it should be no problem
<mdke> what are you thinking?
<mpt> altering it to remove the references
<mdke> I was thinking that the "preparing" and "migrating" chapters are kinda interdependent
<mdke> not sure that one can sit ok without the other
* mpt updates to read the chapter in question
<mdke> maybe we should include the preparing chapter, after all people who've installed a dual boot system can go back to windows and do that stuff
<mpt> oh, "and have followed the instructions in the chapter"
<mpt> ___ chapter
<mpt> hrmmm
<mpt> I see
<mpt> mdke, I concur
<mpt> Including the chapter would be better
<mdke> ok, we'll do that
<mdke> i'll raise it on the ML
<mdke> thanks mpt
<mdke> --> work
<philbull> Hi guys
<philbull> Could someone take a look at bug 92227 for me please?
<Ubugtu> Malone bug 92227 in ubuntu-doc "Wrong url for Scribus in ubuntu-docs/office for Feisty" [Medium,Confirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/92227
<CIA-5> Ubuntu Documentation: philbull feisty * r3983 /ubuntu/office/C/office.xml: Correct url for scribus (closes bug #92227)
<Ubugtu> Malone bug 92227 in ubuntu-doc "Wrong url for Scribus in ubuntu-docs/office for Feisty" [Medium,Confirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/92227
<CIA-5> Ubuntu Documentation: philbull * r3984 ubuntu/office/C/office.xml: Fix url for Scribus
<nixternal> mdke: I was wondering what the manual uploads/fixes we had to do for docs were? Also how do I go about getting the firefox-startpage (kindex.html) translated for Kubuntu?
<Knightlust> nixternal: yeah, im here, its pretty minor, its just that i dont think it's only Kubuntu who has it. i think all the other distro has it and accdg. to the copyright, it was last updated 2002 and we just need to add a feature
<Knightlust> well, will be documenting this and i'll pm you before i send my draft.
<Knightlust> or do i file this as bug?
<nixternal> what doc are we talking about?
<Knightlust> nixternal, the kooka doc
<nixternal> have you checked websvn.kde.org to see if the kooka doc is the same there as it is in Kubuntu?
<nixternal> actually, Knightlust this would 99.9% of the time be a KDE issue
<Knightlust> that's what i thought, that's why i asked in #kde-docs. well, im checking on the process
<Knightlust> and thanks for your help nixternal
<nixternal> Knightlust: no problem. just to note, this issue hasn't been reported in bugs.kde.org so you would be fine adding that as a bug, and then note in it that you are working on it
<LaserJock> mdke: got a sec?
<LaserJock> nixternal: available?
<LaserJock> my contentless pings seem to be usless against their /ignore LaserJock :-)
<nixternal> LaserJock: in a few. I am leaving class right now
<nixternal> LaserJock: what's up?
<LaserJock> nixternal: well, I was digging around to figure out what to do with About Edubuntu
<nixternal> the newest one I created?
<LaserJock> About Ubuntu is done via a .desktop file shipped with gnome-panel-data
<LaserJock> so it appears in the System menu
<nixternal> create an aboutedubuntu.desktop
<LaserJock> I think we could ship an About Edubuntu in edubuntu-docs
<LaserJock> and I think it should add to the menu
<LaserJock> then the only think we'll add to the yelp frontpage is the Handbook
<LaserJock> I'm waiting for my feisty machine at work to dist-upgrade so I can test it out
<nixternal> cool
<nixternal> where at in the repos is the about ubuntu .desktop?
<dsas> gnome-panel-data
<nixternal> mdke: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/node/820   <- needs editing and posting ASAP - HUGE STORY!
<LaserJock> nixternal: oh?
<nixternal> Ubuntu is now in a system that helps with the treatment of HIV+
<nixternal> w/o a doubt the most "Ubuntu" type story I have seen to date. Definitely doing good!
<nixternal> I can't send email to the list either from school as they jammed all of the ports
<LaserJock> I could dig up some good chemistry ones ;-)
<nixternal> heh
<LaserJock> not sure if our HIV researchers are using Ubuntu here
<nixternal> but helping treat such a horrible disease. that is pretty big
<LaserJock> but the big nanomaterials group does quite a bit
<nixternal> heh
<nixternal> I have no clue wth nanomaterials is, beside small materials ;p
<nixternal> sounds like my wallet
<LaserJock> the future, that's what they are ;-)
<nixternal> OK, that is all you had to say, I know what they are working on then
<nixternal> nanotechnology
<nixternal> my dad is getting involved with that in the broadcast engineering field right now
<LaserJock> it's just a buzz word to get funding :-)
<LaserJock> hardly any of the stuff is really "nano"
<nixternal> I want to see that OLED screen where they have fit like a 1024x768 resolution in a 1" square
<LaserJock> nixternal: I've seen a ship where they put 10,000 miniture diving boards in less than 1" sq
<nixternal> heh
<nixternal> wth
<LaserJock> all hooked up to individual electrical leads
<LaserJock> science is fun! ;-)
<nixternal> midterm time, back in a bit
<Knightlust> nixternal, do you know where the kubuntu feisty desktop is located? is it still under development?
<LaserJock> Knightlust: how do you mean?
<Knightlust> LaserJock, is it online? like the desktop guide found in help.ubuntu.com
<LaserJock> sure
<Knightlust> the edgy is here: https://help.ubuntu.com/6.06/kubuntu/desktopguide/C/index.html ... so how about the one for feisty?
<LaserJock> all the in-progress docs are hosed on doc.ubuntu.com
<LaserJock> we only put them on help.ubuntu.com once they have been released
<Knightlust> ohh, thanks for answering my question LaserJock. appreciate it
<LaserJock> Knightlust: no problem
<mdke> nixternal: looking now, presumably too late?
<dsas> hmm, ubuntu-docs is solely licensed under cc-by-sa now?
* dsas is wondering why vrms doesn't complain about it.
<LaserJock> mdke: do you know off hand how the About Ubuntu item gets there?
<mdke> dsas: most of it
<LaserJock> dsas: well, certain parts are GPL, scripts and stuff
<mdke> LaserJock: it's in gnome-panel I guess
<dsas> LaserJock: the one in the menus comes from gnome-panel-data
<LaserJock> if it only looks for GPL in the copyright it will find GPL
<LaserJock> I know *where* it comes from
<LaserJock> I'm trying to figure out how  it gets in the menu
<mdke> nixternal: for translations - no need to do any uploads as long as the pot templates are in the package in the archive, I've asked carlos to handle everything else
<LaserJock> I'm thinking it's got to be hard coded somewhere
<mdke> nixternal: as for firefox, no idea - we do it manually
<mdke> LaserJock: ask seb I guess
<LaserJock> mdke: that's not my favorite answer, but oh well
<mdke> it's the only one I guess
<LaserJock> mdke: is relation seriesid="ca0556e4-b4db-11db-866f-a1b2f0a0b745" what you are looking for the yelp frontpage?
<mdke> LaserJock: that sort of thing yeah
<LaserJock> mdke: what more do you need? we decided the Edubuntu Handbook would be all we'll put in
<LaserJock> so that's the seriesid in the .omf
<mdke> LaserJock: that's enough then
<mdke> can you mail it too, I'm a bit frantic atm
<LaserJock> mdke: np, do you need a description too or just name and series id?
<mdke> that's fine
<LaserJock> k, it'll be too you shortly
<mdke> ty
<dsas> LaserJock: it's hardcoded in gnome-panel indeed
<LaserJock> :(
<dsas> it gets copied in the debian/gnome-panel-data.install file
<LaserJock> well, yeah
<LaserJock> that's where it is installed
<LaserJock> I need to figure out how it gets in the menu
<LaserJock> I copied the about-ubuntu.desktop to about-edubuntu.desktop and changed the names
<LaserJock> left the Categories the same, etc.
<LaserJock> but it doesn't seem to show up
<dsas> ah, sorry. I completely misunderstood.
<LaserJock> np
<dsas> LaserJock: ok, i actually found it this time. it's hardcoded in debian/patches/01_layout.patch
<LaserJock> in gnome-panel?
<dsas> +   if (g_file_test (DATADIR"/omf/about-ubuntu/about-ubuntu-C.omf",
<dsas> +            G_FILE_TEST_IS_REGULAR))
<dsas> +     panel_menu_items_append_from_desktop (menu, "ubuntu-about.desktop", NULL);
<dsas> LaserJock: yeah
<LaserJock> freaking heck
<dsas> I guess you can put a edubuntu one in there looking at that patch...
<LaserJock> it makes it so hard on any derivative to hard code everything
<dsas> not that I know much about C and less about gnome :)
<LaserJock> dsas: no, thanks a ton
<LaserJock> I'm pretty sure I grepped that but I guess not
<dsas> no problem. it gave me an excuse to procastinate.
<LaserJock> ;-)
<LaserJock> glad I could help
<LaserJock> nixternal: pingy pingy
<nixternal> LaserJock: pongy pongy :)
<LaserJock> nixternal: you feel like doing some edubuntu-docs packaging?
<LaserJock> :-)
<nixternal> I can do that
<nixternal> give me a few minutes if possible
<LaserJock> well, I just wondered if you wanted to do it
<LaserJock> I opened a bug against gnome-panel to get us a menu item
<nixternal> ahh, OK
<nixternal> sure, I can do it here in a bit
<LaserJock> but we need to install a .desktop :-)
<nixternal> easy
<mdke> LaserJock: what is the handbook omf file called? I can't find it
<mdke> ah, I see it now
<mdke> LaserJock: the other thing I need to know is where it should go in the list
<LaserJock> well, I'm not sure
<LaserJock> I'd say 1st or right above Advanced Topics
<LaserJock> it might be good to have all the Ubuntu content first
<mdke> lemme know :)
<LaserJock> before they launch into the Handbook
<mdke> ah, the new website is out
<LaserJock> nixternal: what do you think?
<LaserJock> it is? finally
<nixternal> I think I am hungry ;p
<nixternal> LaserJock: I would say dead last with the handbook since it is a work in progress. However...I would like people to read it and file bugs against it as well
<nixternal> so maybe dead last will either keep it out of their view
<LaserJock> nixternal: so how about right before Advanced Topics
<nixternal> sounds good to me
<LaserJock> Advanced Topics is kinda like a "everything else" thing
<LaserJock> mdke: right above Advanced Topics it is :-)
<mdke> ok
<nixternal> that was easy :)
<LaserJock> executive decisions
<LaserJock> much easier than KDE4 in Universe debate :-)
<LaserJock> mdke: is the new website drupal?
<mdke> yes
<LaserJock> what was it before?
<LaserJock> moin?
<mdke> yeah
<Ubugtu> New bug: #92658 in ubuntu-docs (main) "debian/copyright information is incorrect" [Undecided,Unconfirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/92658
<LaserJock> ?
<LaserJock> dsas: pingy pingy
* mdke hands that bug to LaserJock 
<LaserJock> well, it's wrong
<LaserJock> as far as I can tell
<LaserJock> I need to figure out what version he's looking at
<LaserJock> I think everything is consistent and correct unless I overlooked some minor detail :/
<dsas> Laser_away: pong!
<dsas> version 7.03.2 in the debian/copyright file
<dsas> Laser_away: actually. it's me being wrong (again!)
<dsas> i was looking at an old svn checkout, rather than the version I apt-get sourced.
* dsas blames the lack of chinese food and gets ordering.
#ubuntu-doc 2007-03-16
<nixternal> Laser_away: ubuntu-docs package doesn't install a .desktop file, so that is coming from somewhere else.
<nixternal> But that doesn't matter, just tell me where this .desktop file is supposed to go and that is all I need to know, what dir is it going into
<dsas> nixternal: it's installed by gnome-panel if you're talking about about-ubuntu.desktop
<dsas> but I guess edubuntu-docs is the correct place for the edubuntu one, as long as gnome-panel is patched to look for it
<dsas> ubuntu-docs is probably the right package to install the about-ubuntu.desktop too really...
<LaserJock> dsas: yeah
<LaserJock> gnome-panels is what sets up the menu
<LaserJock> so it kinda makes some sense to put it in gnome-panels-data
<LaserJock> but we need to keep things a bit tighter
<dsas> who do I have to bug to get revert rights on h.u.c ?
<LaserJock> revert?
<LaserJock> probably mdke or Burgundivia
<dsas> I want to revert a wikipage from rev 46 to 44
<LaserJock> are you a member of the wiki team?
<LaserJock> I honestly don't know how the ACLs on h.u.c are set
<dsas> LaserJock: I'll try that.
<dsas> bah, moderated team.
<dsas> if someone who does have rights could revert https://help.ubuntu.com/community/WifiDocs/Device/CompaqW200?action=info to revision 44 I'd be greatful :)
<dsas> I could do it manually I guess.
<bimberi> dsas: I can do it (although by the looks of the comments I'm too late)
<dsas> yeah, thanks for the offer anyway bimberi, I just did things the "manual" way
<bimberi> Righto.
<bimberi> dsas, LaserJock: delete/rename/revert rights on h.u.c/c are assigned by someone with administrative access to Moin.  mdke has it (iirc). Not sure who else.
<bimberi> it's intended that it be linked to membership of the LP wiki team but I'm fairly sure it's not been implemented.
<Kamping_Kaiser> There used to be a wiki page detailling how to port ubuntu to a new platform. does anyone know what happened to it? i'v been sewarching for about 30 min and cant see a sign of it
<mdke> morning
<Kamping_Kaiser> hi
<CIA-5> Ubuntu Documentation: mdke * r3985 / (26 files in 20 dirs):
<CIA-5> Ubuntu Documentation: * large string changes to windows.xml, as discussed on mailing list
<CIA-5> Ubuntu Documentation: * refreshing pot templates
<Madpilot> spambot
<Madpilot> ;)
<Kamping_Kaiser> when did -docs grow another bot?
<Madpilot> fairly recently
<mdke> it took many months to add it but we've been looking for it for ages
<mdke> it's pretty cool!
<Kamping_Kaiser> hehe. i only just saw one in another chanel... i feel like i'm being stalked by CIA-* bots ;)
<Madpilot> of course the CIA is watching you. We're all Communist penguin-lovin' Open Source freaks, right?
<Kamping_Kaiser> s/O*/Free/g
* mdke nods
<XiXaQ> should this page really be on help.ubuntu.com? https://help.ubuntu.com/community/VHCS
<LaserJock> nixternal: got a sec?
<mdke> XiXaQ: well, the subject matter looks right. It's pretty ugly though
<XiXaQ> I think it should be on the wiki instead.
<LaserJock> why?
<XiXaQ> because it doesn't explain anything, and it sais it's a work in progress.
<LaserJock> so?
<Burgwork> XiXaQ: feel free to edit it
<Burgwork> in progress is from may of last year
<LaserJock> help.u.c vs wiki.u.c is help documentation vs developer documentation not good doc vs. bad doc
<XiXaQ> oh
<nixternal> LaserJock: yo yo
<LaserJock> nixternal: sorry, was picking up my car from the shop
<LaserJock> nixternal: did you have a chance to look at the About Edubuntu stuff?
<nixternal> LaserJock: I just need to know where to place that .desktop file. telling me gnome-panel doesn't help
<nixternal> need the absolute directory
<dsas> could someone revert RestrictedFormats/PlayingDVDs to revision 18 or so?
<nixternal> I can't do anything on h.u.c/community
<nixternal> I can edit a page and that is it
<dsas> can anyone? :(
<nixternal> rediculous the way it is setup
* dsas wonders why it's locked down so tight
<dsas> someone removed the post-dapper instructions for reading dvds anyway.
<nixternal> call it community documentation yet it is restricted
<dsas> oh hang on.
<dsas> i'm losing my mind.
<nixternal> heh
<dsas> do you need libdvdread3 *and* libdvdcss2 ?
<nixternal> dsas: I don't think so, but I am not 100% positive
* dsas shouldn't assume things
<nixternal> hehe
<LaserJock> well there are a few issues with the wiki stuff
<LaserJock> the problem is that right now it's sort of "all or nothing"
<nixternal> LaserJock: I need a MOTU mentor! I am going for MOTU this next build cycle no matter what!
<LaserJock> so people who can delete, etc. have virtually complete admin rights to the wiki
<nixternal> I can't do anything but edit
<LaserJock> right
<nixternal> which defeats the purpose, but who am I?
<LaserJock> the plan is to let all wiki team members have delete/rename, etc. rights
<LaserJock> it's not designed that way
<LaserJock> it's a bug
<LaserJock> one that is not easy to fix apparently
<nixternal> ya, for about 6 months now
<nixternal> hehe
<nixternal> you beat me to the punch on that one
<nixternal> we need to update moin as well or switch to mediawiki
<LaserJock> yes that's another item
<LaserJock> it's all Canonical so it's a bit tough
* nixternal leaves that one alone
<LaserJock> well, there used to be problems
<LaserJock> we couldn't easily upgrade moin
<LaserJock> I'm not sure if it was because ubuntu.com was running moin or not
<nixternal> MoinMoin is a pain to admin, I will give them that
<nixternal> we use it at school and recently did an upgrade to the latest version
<nixternal> it wasn't fun, but it wasn't that crazy
<LaserJock> we might be able to do better now
<LaserJock> but it still means getting sysadmins to do it
<LaserJock> we've wanted to upgrade for over a year now
<dsas> haven't they upped their sysadmin power over the last few months though? I think there's 3 of them now...
<nixternal> ya, and towards the end of a build cycle isn't the best time for them either I am sure
<LaserJock> and Corey keeps wanting to move to mediawiki ;-)
<LaserJock> dsas: yes
<nixternal> LaserJock: sabdfl wants to move to mediawiki
<LaserJock> which is funny
<nixternal> he stated it in a blog post about 6 months back
<LaserJock> since the reason we went with Moin was because they wouldn't let PHP on the Canonical servers
<LaserJock> we've got so much data, it's not easy to just up and migrate
<LaserJock> we'll probably have to discuss it for Feisty+1
<nixternal> and feisty+2, feisty+3, and so on... ;p
<LaserJock> nah
<LaserJock> one of the reasons we stayed with Moin is because it was better for developer work, I think
<LaserJock> now that we have help.u.c we can separate the 2
<LaserJock> but then we put quite some effort into moin->docbook
<LaserJock> I really like moin for personal use (Desktop Moin)
<nixternal> really?
<dsas> and there's possibly the launchpad -> Moin integration
<nixternal> I was thinking about using it
<LaserJock> for personal use it's great because you just drop it in and go
<LaserJock> no MySQL or Apache or anything
<dsas> dvd page is fixed I think.
<dsas> doesn't kde have a equivalent to tomboy?
<LaserJock> basket
<LaserJock> perhaps
<LaserJock> I think that's how it's spelled
<nixternal> basket is correct, but far from equivalent to tomboy
<nixternal> basket is way more involved and complicated. you can do so much with it, but hell it is nuts
<LaserJock> I so wish I could get tomboy for OS X
<dsas> sounds like kde </troll>
<nixternal> I like tomboy because 1) super easy, and 2) wiki effect
<dsas> I still use a scattering of text files and paper notes.
<nixternal> hrmm, actually I have looked at tomboy and noticed it is a fairly straight forward and easily coded app, wonder how difficult it is to port from gtK to Qt
<dsas> nixternal: does qt have mono bindings?
<Burgwork> nixternal: use basket
<nixternal> dsas: yes
<dsas> cool, didn't know that
<nixternal> Burgwork: basket is more than what I need
<Burgwork> KDE is more than I need
<nixternal> more than what many people need
<Burgwork> indeed, why I use GNOME :)
<nixternal> sorry, been 10 years with KDE. I won't go anywhere else :)
<nixternal> I would rather use Vista :)
<dsas> ouch.
<nixternal> LaserJock: http://moinmoin.wikiwikiweb.de/MoinX
<LaserJock> yep
<LaserJock> I used it a fair bit
<LaserJock> works very well
<nixternal> ahh, I just brain farted
<LaserJock> but not quite as light as tomboy
<nixternal> you said tomboy for mac, not moin
<LaserJock> yeah
<LaserJock> although it's sorta similar
#ubuntu-doc 2007-03-17
<Jisao> Is there a feedback team for the new ubuntu.com site?
<tonyyarusso> Jisao: No idea - but if you babble here there's a more-than-decent chance the appropriate folks will see and/or hear about it later.
<dsas> Jisao: yeah.
<dsas> Jisao: you can file bugs on it here: https://beta.launchpad.net/ubuntu-website/+filebug
<dsas> the editors are listed here: https://beta.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-website
<Jisao> This new download ubuntu page is bad.  Too many questions.
<Jisao> tx
<dsas> or you can email webmaster@ubuntu.com
<tonyyarusso> dsas: much better answer :)
<Jisao> I don't think an opinion would qualify as a bug...
<tonyyarusso> Jisao: Note that you'll need to remove the beta. if you aren't a beta tester
<tonyyarusso> Jisao: "wishlist" - sure it can!
<Jisao> Oh, I see.
<Jisao> No, I am not a beta tester.  Just an interested user.
<Jisao> I just find it annoying to need 5 slides to explain how to choose the right iso.image instead of one.
<tonyyarusso> Maybe there should be a long explanation as well as an "I know what I'm doing, gimme" button.
<Jisao> I don't know.  I liked the debian explanation:  "If you don't know what we are talking about, then choose this one" :-)
<Jisao> They omitted the name of the version.
<tonyyarusso> From the iso names?  Yeah, I've heard that - and think it's shockingly dumb
<tonyyarusso> I thought that was being fixed
<Jisao> Nope.  I deal with new people to Linux.  They are going to freak reading that page.
<Jisao> But I better get over the shock, otherwise I am going to come across as a first class complainer.
<dsas> Jisao: filing bugs is all about complaining.
<Madpilot> Jisao, if you click the silver 'download' button in the top orange banner on ubuntu.com, you get one screen with four sets of choices, then you get the ISO.
<Madpilot> where's the '5 screen' version?
<Jisao> not screens, slides.  As in a slide show.
<Jisao> I need to explain more about this page now than before.
<Madpilot> just aim people straight to http://www.ubuntu.com/getubuntu/download
<Jisao> There are going to be a s...load of broken links on the internet, believe you me.
<Madpilot> how? I think the old URL was ubuntu.com/download, which now nicely forwards to the URL I just gave...
<Madpilot> and if links directly to ISOs have broken, that just proves that you shouldn't link directly to ISOs...
<dsas> oh dear, they're pushing IdeaPool on the mainpage now, as if it hasn't been cesspooly enough.
<dsas> s/mainpage/mainsite
<Jisao> Yes, it seems many links forward.  Good.
<Madpilot> Jisao, every link should forward if URLs have changed, If you find one that does, file that as a bg
<Madpilot> bug, even
<Jisao> ok
<Madpilot> that's just basic good webmastering - do not break links
<Jisao> You'd be surprised at how many people don't do that.
<Madpilot> there's lots of crap websites out there. Ubuntu's generally aren't among them.
* tonyyarusso should finish the work on the CESA site even though he isn't really obligated anymore, merely b/c I'll be the only competent person for a long time most likely
<Jisao> Well, that will be a premiere:  my first bug report in Linux.
<Jisao> Bug #92999
<Ubugtu> Malone bug 92999 in Ubuntu "Error 404 on page of the ubuntu.com web site " [Undecided,Unconfirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/92999
<Madpilot> Jisao, that URL you get a 404 on redirects to http://www.ubuntu.com/getubuntu/releasenotes/610
<Madpilot> there is no 404
* mdke mornings
<kalon33> good morning !
<Jisao> good morning
<Jisao> See the bar on the right hand side of this page to view our draft documents which are currently under development for release with Ubuntu 6.06 Dapper Drake!
<Jisao> Does that need to be updated, or you are still developing for that?
<Jisao> http://doc.ubuntu.com/
<mdke> yes, it needs updating
<Jisao> To Feisty?
<mdke> right
<Jisao> ok.
<mdke> (done)
<CIA-5> Ubuntu Documentation: mdke * r3986 / (2 files in 2 dirs): small fix for Universe/Multiverse, as per bug 91355
<Ubugtu> Malone bug 91355 in ubuntu-docs "Universe and Multiverse enabled by default" [Medium,Fix released]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/91355
<bodhi_zazen> anyone know a quick link to wiki guidelines for screen shots ?
<mdke> bodhizazen: DocumentationTeam/TakingScreenshots is the best we've got. But I don't think it is particularly up to date or well prepared
<mdke> damn, I mean https://wiki.ubuntu.com/TakingScreenshots
<bodhizazen> mdke, thanks
<bodhizazen> mdke not exactly what I was looking for
<bodhizazen> I thought I had run across a page asking for default desktop
<mdke> what are you looking for?
<bodhizazen> and suggesting taking screen shots with a virtual machine
<bodhizazen> sound familiar at all ?
<mdke> screencasts maybe?
<mdke> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ScreencastTeam?action=show
<mdke> bbl
#ubuntu-doc 2007-03-18
<coopster> hey, i'm making a page on how to configure a G15 keyboard.  first page, any pointers?
<coopster> fdskajdfk, does ubuntu's wiki cache things that you make a preview of?  that doc was just pure gold and now it's dead.
<mdke_> coopster: no, I don't think it does
<mpt> coopster, try https://wiki.ubuntu.com/<yourwikinamehere>/MoinEditorBackup
<mdke_> ah, nice. Was wondering if that was in 1.3 already
<mdke_> how are you mpt
<mpt> It's been in Moin since I've ever used it
<mpt> mdke_, ok, I even have e-mail now
<mpt> How are you? :-)
<mdke_> very well thanks
<mdke_> you lost email?
<mpt> Yeah, for 1.5 weeks
* mpt should stop being such a cheapskate and get a paid Imap account
<mdke_> I'll give you an imap account if you like
<mdke_> I have loads and loads of space going on my shared hosting with dreamhost
<mpt> Dreamhost are down more often than my e-mail account is :-)
<mpt> But thanks anyway
<mdke> heh. They're not so bad
* mdke tries to remember what he needs to do Ubuntu-wise atm
<coopster> mpt, thanks.  i only wish now that i had made the home page first like the wiki recommended ;)
<Ubugtu> New bug: #93437 in ubuntu-doc "'Sample' links give 404 error" [Undecided,Unconfirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/93437
<alefteris> hi everyone, how can i translate the firefox frontpage for feisty?
<Ubugtu> New bug: #56958 in gdm "GDM Login font become super large after enabling Nvidia Driver" [Undecided,Unconfirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/56958
<Admiral_Chicago> why is that showing up in here
<dsas> someone filed it wrong.
<dsas> uhm, but that was fixed months ago.
* dsas shrugs
<Admiral_Chicago> i just saw it in my email today...oh well
#ubuntu-doc 2008-03-10
<Kamping_Kaiser> is there somewhere i can check the current system requirements? i wasunder the impression it was ~384mb of ram now, but cant find a reference.
<sommer> Kamping_Kaiser: for desktop or server?
<Kamping_Kaiser> sommer, desktop (edubuntu workstation)
<sommer> ah, I'm not sure either I would say 256, but maybe that's just xubuntu
<Kamping_Kaiser> i'll look in the ubuntu docs bzr and see what that says
<Kamping_Kaiser> doesnt seem to specify. oh well. i'll see if anyone else knows
<sommer> have you checked the main site?
<sommer> it may be there
<Kamping_Kaiser> i have, but i'll check again.
<frank23> Kamping_Kaiser: you need 384MB RAM for the LiveCD.
<frank23> Kamping_Kaiser: you can install alternate cd with less
<kgoetz> back.
<kgoetz> frank23: thanks
<kgoetz> fwiw: my cars running well :D pity the breaks are soft again o_0
<kgoetz> gah
<kgoetz> wrong channel
<kgoetz> :|
<kgoetz> who does kubuntu docs?
<kgoetz> actually, it probably says on the wiki
<kgoetz> will 8.04 be using policykit?
<kgoetz> should 'nvidia' be Nvidia or NVIDIA in the docs? their website uses the latter.
<mdke> kgoetz: in that case, when referring to the company, it should be NVIDI
<mdke> +A
<mdke> and jjesse and nixternal take care of kubuntu docs
<kgoetz> mdke: thanks.
<kgoetz> nixternal: must be a busy little beaver
<mdke> believe so
 * Kamping_Kaiser wonders what timezone nixternal is in
<jpatrick> Kamping_Kaiser: Chicago I think
<Kamping_Kaiser> jpatrick, so GMT-5~hrs iirc
<Kamping_Kaiser> nixternal, you available yet?
<spiderbatdad> monkbow
<spiderbatdad> !ubuntu-doc
<ubotu> Sorry, I don't know anything about ubuntu-doc - try searching on http://ubotu.ubuntu-nl.org/factoids.cgi
<sommer> anyone getting this error when trying to commit? http://paste.ubuntu-nl.org/59161/
<sommer> nm... I think I checked out the wrong branch
<sommer> nope I've got the correct branch... mmme
<keisho> I get a 403 error trying to get to https://help.ubuntu.com/community ... is this just me, or is there something I'm missing?
<seisen> actually I got that error when I clicked on the community docs tab
<keisho> Thank goodness it's not me, then. Can this be fixed? I can still access Google caches of the pages, but it's a pain in the rear...
<mdke> sommer: looks like you are trying to commit to http
<mdke> keisho, seisen - seems to work here, are you still having the problem?
<seisen> working now
<seisen> hey mdke are teh docs froze yet?
<mdke> seisen: no, not yet
<sommer> mdke: I did a bzr co --lightweight, following the repository page guide... is there something I missed?
<seisen> ok I need to finish that compiz section then
<mdke> sommer: a checkout is read only, you'll need to do a branch and push via ssh or sftp in order to push to the launchpad branch
<sommer> mdke: ah... I'm with ya, doh
 * sommer is used to bzr commit
<keisho> Sorry was afk there. Yes, the docs work now.
<sommer> does bzr push allow you to create a log entry?
<mdke> sommer: no, you do that in the commit bit
<sommer> mdke: gotcha, but if I did a --lightweight can it be converted to be able to commit?
<sommer> or can you do a bzr branch --lightweight
<mdke> sommer: i think the latter may work, but a checkout is always read-only. But I'm not 100%
<sommer> mdke: ah I see, I'll try the branch, thanks
#ubuntu-doc 2008-03-11
<mdke> moin
<kgoetz> ello
<kgoetz> catch you in a few hours - i'm leaving work
<mdke> sommer: nice work on the serverguide, it's becoming a monster
<Kamping_Kaiser> there are times i *hate* docbook :| i removed stuff and it broke :(
<Kamping_Kaiser> seems to work ish still, so np
<Odd-rationale> I have a quick question. What is the difference between help.ubuntu.com/community , wiki.ubuntu.com ,  and doc.ubuntu.com ? Thanks!
<Gabz> the name...
<Kamping_Kaiser> aiui, doc is 'offical', help is WIP, and wiki is free for all
<Odd-rationale> So documentation moves from wiki -> help -> doc ?
<Kamping_Kaiser> doc.u.c/community is wiki pages that are mostly stable too
<Odd-rationale> help.ubuntu.com seems to be the most "official" while doc.ubuntu.com has a bunch of broken links...
<Kamping_Kaiser> perhaps i have my sub domains mixed up
<Odd-rationale> Which would be the best place to start getting involved? The wiki, i assume?
<Kamping_Kaiser>  topic has https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam , which is a useful link
<Odd-rationale> ok thanks, Kamping_Kaiser.
<Kamping_Kaiser> Odd-rationale, hope its helping
<ryanakca> A comment on the bug suggests forwarding it to Ubuntu-bugs? bug 135263
<ubotu> Launchpad bug 135263 in gnome-app-install "idea: table of replacements of Windows software in Linux in the pack manager" [Wishlist,Incomplete] https://launchpad.net/bugs/135263
<ryanakca> ... but I think it has already been done :)
<ryanakca> If so, can you close the bug please?
<sommer> mdke: thanks, I was thinking that it was starting to get pretty long too... and there's still a some updates and maybe a new section :-)
<frank_> Odd-rationale: help.ubuntu.com is user documentation, wiki has a lot of other ubuntu-related things
<ubotu> New bug: #201131 in ubuntu-doc "Documentation for gnome-control-center does not mention PolicyKit" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/201131
<ubotu> New bug: #201199 in ubuntu-doc "Suggest to use aptitude instead of apt-get" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/201199
<ubotu> New bug: #201200 in ubuntu-doc "Document a method to receive notifications about new packages available (in the server)" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/201200
<mdke> sommer: I'm slightly worried about more sections being added - there is not much time allowed left for review of the new material and translation
<sommer> mdke: the only new section would be one on the bacula backup application
<sommer> and updates :-)
<sommer> I did ask for an extension on the new sections, back before FF
<mdke> yes, I remember
<sommer> bacula is actually a topic of tomorrow's meeting, ivoks is/was working on getting it into main for hardy, but he's been sick for a while and it may not make it
<mdke> but I'm just a bit worried
<mdke> when do you expect the new sections?
<sommer> I should be able to have the section in by the weekend
<sommer> the thought is that only covering simple shell scripts for backups isn't very "enterprise like"
<mdke> that's true. it depends on what tools are available
<sommer> I guess my concern is that if bacula does make it into main, and that makes it a new "feature" of hardy it'll be marketed but not documented
<sommer> trying to not have documentation a minus with regards to ubuntu server... basically because that one "journalist" gave a somewhat bad review of gutsy
<mdke> that's the problem with such massively late feature freeze exceptions
<sommer> you can't please everyone so, it's not a huge deal either way... plus the bacula site has quite good docs
<sommer> totally, and having the main dev out for so long has jammed things up pretty good
<mdke> we can certainly do our best to get them in
<sommer> here's a rough draft of what I was thinking about: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Bacula
<mdke> that's cool
<mdke> I guess just try and find out asap whether the feature is going to be in hardy or not
<sommer> sure, should know tomorrow around 17:00 or 18:00 utc
<mdke> good news
<mdke> sommer: what sort of progress did you make in relation to that issue about broken ulinks in the help website?
<mdke> I was thinking of starting to get ready a similar system to the one we used last release, with sed
<mdke> except build it into the Makefile rather than do it as a manual script
<sommer> mdke: ya, I haven't had time to look at it for a while
<sommer> basically my idea was for the python script to get the easy #doc#section ones, then prompt for the harder ones
<mdke> that's a nice idea
<sommer> should make it more copy and paste anyway
<mdke> although it will make it difficult to use it for auto builds like doc.ubuntu.com
<mdke> or if an auto build is required for a particular package
<sommer> ya, didn't really take that into account at the time :-)
<mdke> but is it safe to say this would be a goal for hardy+1 rather than hardy?
<sommer> what's the time table for that part?
<mdke> I'm not really sure
<mdke> I think I'll just start using the old version and then we can see how your work goes
<sommer> my plan was to kuckle down and work on that after SF, hopefully having something by the release date
<sommer> ya, that's probably a good plan
<mdke> cool, thanks again for working on that
<sommer> sure, nop
<sommer> np, even
#ubuntu-doc 2008-03-13
<sommer> mdke: bacula should make it into main... so is it cool if the new section is in this weekend?
<mdke> sommer: yeah, go ahead
<ubotu> New bug: #201781 in kubuntu-docs (main) "Kubuntu-docs: faulty strings (#59) in games" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/201781
<ubotu> New bug: #201785 in kubuntu-docs (main) "Kubuntu-docs: faulty strings (#58) in games" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/201785
<DarkRaven> .
#ubuntu-doc 2008-03-14
<crimsun> there seems to be a grammatical error in the index.html
<crimsun> The Ubuntu community is made up of software developers, documentation writers, translators, graphic artists, and most importantly, the people who are using Ubuntu in their everyday life.
<crimsun> ^^ "life" should be "lives"
<ubotu> New bug: #202296 in ubuntu-docs (main) "pomoc s pÅekladem" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/202296
<ubotu> New bug: #202312 in ubuntu-docs (main) "Please apply a patch to update Finnish (fi_FI) browser-startpage" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/202312
<mdke> crimsun: fixed thanks
#ubuntu-doc 2008-03-15
<ubotu> New bug: #202301 in dell "Firefox default home page not localized with other languages" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/202301
<jonasbjork> hi ppl!
<Hattory> Hi guys, I just translated this page: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/Translation , In the last section (3. Importing the translations back into our repository), in the second point there is a link that go to a non-existent page.
<Hattory> the right link should be: https://translations.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/dapper/+source/ubuntu-docs/+pots/desktopguide , ??
<mdke> Hattory: no, I don't think that is likely to be right; I'll fix it though, thanks for pointing it out
<Hattory> mdke, ok thanks
<mdke> Hattory: but you probably shouldn't translate that section, only the "Translators" section is needed
<mdke> Hattory: ok, that section is a bit more up to date now, thanks
<Hattory> mdke, yes.. probably you are right, i send a mail in the ML but nobody reply me :D
#ubuntu-doc 2008-03-16
<lxsu> hmmm.. Ã¤r detta en svensk kanal?
<cody-somerville> Hey
<cody-somerville> I'm having trouble getting the Xubuntu docs to build
<cody-somerville> Is this a known issue?
<cody-somerville> "make -C xubuntu" seems to work...
<mdke> cody-somerville: "make all" works alright. Xubuntu docs are done slightly oddly though. What seems to be the problem?
<cody-somerville> Well, it turns out I can build it just fine if I type "make -C xubuntu"
<cody-somerville> It seems that the Makefile in the xubuntu branch needs updating
<cody-somerville> mdke, Also, I've just regenerated the pot files. So I need to upload them to launchpad right?
<mdke> no, they will be imported fine if you do an upload
<cody-somerville> For example, I'd visit https://translations.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/hardy/+source/xubuntu-docs/+pots/about-xubuntu/+upload and upload the pot for about-xubuntu
<mdke> cody-somerville: so "make all" didn't work for you?
<cody-somerville> There is no taget all :)
<mdke> sure there is
<mdke> I just did it
<cody-somerville> I'm running this from the top directory
<cody-somerville> not in xubuntu/
<mdke> all: clean style index
<mdke> right, you need to do it from xubuntu/
<cody-somerville> Okay, so can I update the Makefile in the top directory to do just that?
<cody-somerville> Or will that break things?
<mdke> I doubt the Makefile in the top directory is used at all
<mdke> we can remove it
<cody-somerville> Okay, sounds good
 * cody-somerville does some tidy work
<cody-somerville> mdke, Do the xubuntu-docs really need to depend on the ubuntu-docs? :)
<cody-somerville> in the build-depends
 * cody-somerville will try building without it.
<mdke> cody-somerville: no idea I haven't ever touched xubuntu-doc packaging. Can't think of a reason though
<mdke> is it including a document from /usr/share/ubuntu-docs maybe?
 * mdke leaves for a bit
<cody-somerville> OooOoo... it probably is
<mdke> serverguide?
<cody-somerville> the serverguide doesn't seem to be in the bazaar branch
<cody-somerville> mdke, Shouldn't xml2po be in the make all rule?
<cody-somerville> or atleast src-tarball?
 * cody-somerville assumes you want update pot files when you create the src-tarball
 * cody-somerville wonders if teamstuff needs to be in the xubuntu branch
<cody-somerville> mdke, the dependency is:
<cody-somerville> /usr/share/ubuntu-docs/common/prepare-firefox-startpage-translations
<mdke> cody-somerville: no, we don't update pot files when building the source
<cody-somerville> So how goes launchpad get the pot files again?
<cody-somerville> *does
<mdke> it imports them from the source package
<mdke> cody-somerville: why did you remove build/ ?
<cody-somerville> mdke, Because it isn't required
<cody-somerville> mdke, When you tell it to build, it'll re-add it
<mdke> but having it at least shows people where stuff is building
<mdke> all the other branches use it...
<cody-somerville> It is superfluous
 * mdke shrugs
<cody-somerville> I don't have a strong feeling about it
<cody-somerville> I was just cleaning things up
<cody-somerville> It should be as close to what I would take to package as possible
<cody-somerville> IMHO
<mdke> well, the branches *are* what you package
<mdke> they build straight out of the branch, that's the whole point
<mdke> I have no problem with cleaning up, but I'm just surprised you removed it while all the other branches use it
<cody-somerville> Xubuntu continues to use it
<cody-somerville> It just doesn't exist in the clean branch
<mdke> cody-somerville: yes, I understand what you've done
<mdke> dsas: thanks for the work on the browser homepage - works great
<cody-somerville> mdke, Would you prefer that I put it back? :)
<mdke> cody-somerville: I just think that having it there means that people will be aware of where they can find the html if they build it. It's not a big thing though
<cody-somerville> I'll put it back because the clean rule in debian/rules deletes it for me anyhow
<mdke> cody-somerville: thanks
<cody-somerville> Pushed up to revision 3663.
<cody-somerville> mdke, What do you think of my proposal to ubuntu-doc?
<mdke> cody-somerville: I'm not sure about it
<cody-somerville> The fact that I can't properly associate the package with a series is annoying
<mdke> cody-somerville: does it prevent you from doing anything?
<mdke> i think that launchpad eventually will support having more than one branch associated with a series
<cody-somerville> It makes my life easier as a packager :)
<mdke> cody-somerville: is there anything more than simply the lp: shortcut?#
<cody-somerville> When I'm in the source package pages, I can quickly jump to the appropriate bazaar branch
<mdke> cody-somerville: can a source package page not be linked to a branch which isn't associated with a series?
<cody-somerville> Sadly, no
<mdke> brb
<cody-somerville> It has to do with bug reporting and stuff too
<cody-somerville> launchpad is complicated
<cody-somerville> but neat
<mdke> cody-somerville: yes. It is doable I suppose, but I'm a bit sceptical about whether it is likely to cause any further fragmentation between the various branches
<mdke> cody-somerville: also I'm concerned that a project which doesn't really exist outside of Ubuntu should have so many separate projects and even an umbrella project
<mdke> cody-somerville: I just wonder whether the correct solution isn't to get Launchpad to support more than one branch per series
<mdke> or open more series...
<cody-somerville> You could get rid of the current model, yes.
<cody-somerville> instead of by release, by derivative
<mdke> or by both
<cody-somerville> Why not just have separate products then?
<mdke> because different projects means different urls, different teams associated, and more maintenance
<cody-somerville> What maintenance do you have to do now?
<mdke> cody-somerville: bug lists and release series, I guess
<cody-somerville> Currently you can only manage the release series for Ubuntu's docs
<mdke> that's right
<cody-somerville> Launchpad was not designed to work this way
<cody-somerville> Xubuntu docs and Ubuntu docs are separate products
<cody-somerville> So there should be two products
<cody-somerville> Branch ownership will remain the same, etc. etc.
<mdke> that's where we differ
<mdke> I think they aren't separate projects :)
<cody-somerville> But we'll be able to take advantage of the launchpad infrastructure
<cody-somerville> I'm not saying they're separate projects, mdke :)
<cody-somerville> I'm saying they're separate products
<cody-somerville> And thats why launchpad offers the super-project
<mdke> that's just linguistics
<mdke> Launchpad calls them projects though
<cody-somerville> They have transitioned to that language, yes.
<cody-somerville> How about I get some sleep before we discuss this further? :)
<cody-somerville> Because I know what I want to say but I can't seem to get it out right
<mdke> that's fine, I haven't made my mind up either
<cody-somerville> mdke, Did you see the Xubuntu meeting announcement on the ml?
<mdke> I don't think so
<cody-somerville> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel-discuss/2008-March/003620.html
<cody-somerville> It would be really cool if you could come
<mdke> cody-somerville: I'll see, although i don't know much about xubuntu or its direction
<mdke> what's the basic problem?
<cody-somerville> Lack of direction
<cody-somerville> :)
<mdke> from your email it sounds like there are more than one competing directions
<mdke> not too sure about the grammar of that, but you get the idea
<cody-somerville> I would agree with that statement
<mdke> about grammar?
<cody-somerville> We have the "lets provide a lightweight desktop" crew and the "lets provide an xfce4 extremist desktop" crew
<cody-somerville> no, about the competing directions
<mdke> i see. is an xfce4 extremist desktop lighter than the first type?
<mdke> or heavier?
<cody-somerville> much lighter
<cody-somerville> And buggier :(
<mdke> cody-somerville: i understand
<cody-somerville> I'd like Xubuntu to be useful
<cody-somerville> So have community input (ie. not just xubuntu-specific people) would be a Good Idea (TM) IMHO
<mdke> i'll see what I can do
<cody-somerville> *having
<mdke> sommer: what's the status of that new material for the serverguide?
<sommer> working on it... do you mean the bacula section?
<mdke> sommer: yeah
<mdke>  far away?
<sommer> ya... haven't started converting the wiki article to docbook yet
<mdke> ah ok
<mdke> sommer: did you see my email to the list about the test wiki for wiki->docbook conversion?
<sommer> ya, haven't had much time to try it out though
<mdke> that should quicken things up, you just need to run it through tidy afterwards... and last time I looked there were some problems with whitespacing
<sommer> I usually do the conversion by hand, because it also allows for proof reading :-)
<mdke> fair enough
<sommer> the new section should be ready in a couple of hours at most
<mdke> perfect
<mdke> I was going to request an ubuntu-docs upload tomorrow
<sommer> if for whatever reason it's not I'll let you know... definitely by tomorrow morning
<mdke> no worries, if not possible we can upload the pot template manually to rosetta to start people working on it
<sommer> there's still a couple of updates... installation section, likewise-open, and jeos section as well
<mdke> I removed generic/server this evening
<sommer> ya, noticed the commit message, cool
<mdke> sommer: by update do you mean new material?
<sommer> nope mostly corrrections/updates to commands
<mdke> fine
<mdke> looking pretty good for string freeze on thursday
<sommer> the jeos section update may be some significant content though... it was orginally written with vmware in mind, but now jeos supports kvm really well
<mdke> if only we can sort that dvd stuff out
<sommer> ya, I was thinking that when I'm done with the server stuff I could take a look at it
<mdke> isn't jeos a different flavour of Ubuntu to the server edition?
<mdke> what's the relationship?
<sommer> yes and no
<sommer> jeos is a customized server edition flavour geared toward running as a virtualized guest os
<sommer> basically it's only the drivers and software needed to load into vmware, qemu, kvm, etc
<sommer> it's pretty cool stuff
<mdke> and it is used as a server?
<sommer> it can be no dooubt about it
<mdke> interesting
<sommer> doubt even
<mdke> so it's like a virtual server :)
<sommer> precisely
<sommer> the total install is like 300M, or there abouts it's pretty slick
<mdke> do you think it's better to be included in the serverguide, or as a separate document? is it something people running the server or desktop editions will use?
<sommer> heh... I've wondered that myself
<sommer> I think it can be either, but at this point I'd say mostly centered around server
<mdke> so you can use it from one of those two editions?
<mdke> or at least install it
<mdke> the serverguide is pretty enormous right now so I'm just concerned to ensure everything is appropriately placed in there
<sommer> sure, but the server edition has more virtualization optimizations then desktop, so it will probably run better using server
<mdke> ok
<mdke> it takes ages to load the doc in yelp :(
<mdke> should the jeos section be inside the Virtualisation section?
<sommer> maybe, but since there are so many subsections it's a little hard to navigate
<mdke> it's a little hard to tell what it is from the title unless you know already
<mdke> still, not a bit issue
<mdke> big*
<sommer> since it's getting pretty late in the game for hardy, do you want to leave it as is for now, and if there's need we can move it for ibex?
<mdke> I guess it would be difficult to move it?
<mdke> yes, let's leave it, we have enough to do
<sommer> shouldn't be too bad, just changing sect1 > sect2; sect2 > sect3
<mdke> argh
<sommer> ?
<mdke> i hate that stuff :)
<sommer> heh
<sommer> sigh... bacula package is still borded
<sommer> borked even
<sommer> mdke: when's the latest I can submit the new bacula section?
<sommer> aside from the 20th :-)
<sommer> mdke: at this point I'm thinking bacula section will have to wait for ibex
<j1mc> mdke: are you around?
#ubuntu-doc 2009-03-10
<mdke> sommer: nice work on all the bug fixing recently on the serverguide. Please can you include a short description of what the bug you are fixing is in the bzr commit log so that I can just copy/paste to the changelog entry?
<mdke> sommer: obviously, that applies to the future ones, past fixes I can dig out
<sommer> mdke: ya definitely, I'll do that
<sommer> mdke: I keep thinking the automated LP stuff will sort out a lot of that
<mdke> sommer: this is just for my benefit, so that when I do a changelog entry, I can include something short which makes it clear what the fix is
<mdke> sommer: lp doesn't yet automate changelog entries :)
<sommer> true, I guess I was thinking about the auto-closing thing
<mdke> sommer: e.g. what you've done in revision 229 is perfect, whereas 218 needs to be a bit more descriptive
<sommer> gotcha
<mdke> the serverguide is looking excellent at the moment, nice work
<sommer> thanks... I think it's almost complete
<sommer> at least it took me a while to think of more topics for karmic... but I've got a few: monitoring, chat services, vpn
<mdke> :)
<mdke> those sound sensible definitely
<mdke> I'll do an upload now with those latest fixes
 * mdke is loving having upload rights for ubuntu-docs
<mdke> oh, actually I'd better wait until after the alpha release
#ubuntu-doc 2009-03-11
<Rocket2DMn> hey mdke , i was hoping to get your 2 cents on the email i sent last weekend re: RootSudo page and enabling the root account
<mdke> Rocket2DMn: I tend to agree with Phil, that it's better that we document it with an appropriate warning than not, because otherwise those interested will just go elsewhere
<Rocket2DMn> Ok.  IMHO, it would be ok to do for server documentation, but not for desktop
<Rocket2DMn> I seem to have been overruled on this point though :)
<Rocket2DMn> thanks for the feedback
<mdke> Rocket2DMn: I don't feel particularly strongly about it, which is why I've left it to others to debate
<Rocket2DMn> I can live with it, but from a security-oriented background, it makes me twitch sometimes
<mdke> Rocket2DMn: what are actually the security implications of enabling the root account?
<mdke> most linux distros have a root account I think, so it's not the end of the world, surely
<mdke> the RootSudo documents a few things, but none of them strike me as screaming huge security  issues
<Rocket2DMn> mdke, the world isnt going to end
<Rocket2DMn> For one, Ubuntu disables it by default as part of its security model
<Rocket2DMn> It favors sudo, which is more configurable, and has to be used in order to make system changes, whereas when logged into root, you dont get prompted or have to type anything extra.  users may not even realize changes they are making
<Rocket2DMn> in cases where people enable remote connections, root is often the first account to be targeted
<Rocket2DMn> Users often want to sacrifice security for ease of use, which is often though of as a Windows mindset (though thankfully, Windows is changing that)
<Rocket2DMn> I think we should be showing users the Ubuntu way of doing things, rather than circumventing the security model for convenience
<Rocket2DMn> There are many arguments to be made from both sides, needless to say its still an ongoing debate, which I don't want to drag out :)
<mdke> Rocket2DMn: I think the page still dooes show users the Ubuntu way of doing things, even on Phil's proposed way
<mdke> because it explains the disadvantages quite clearly and gives a disclaimer
<Rocket2DMn> Yeah, there is a lot of good information on that page.  What worries me most is that people won't read it.
<mdke> you kind of have to if you are going to get any information from the page
<Rocket2DMn> Users often get frustrated and just jump to what looks like the easiest way to achieve their goals
<mdke> also, the warning on the "enabling the root account" could be made a bit more explicit, I think that's Phil's suggestion
<Rocket2DMn> Yeah I think taht section of the page was a little awkward, I will go through and clean it up a bit
<Rocket2DMn> which leads me to my next question :)
<Rocket2DMn> I am planning on holding a meeting with the Beginners Team Wiki focus group next week.  we haven't met in a few months, and you are invited
<Rocket2DMn> next tuesday at 8pm EDT.  That is midnight Wed UTC
<Rocket2DMn> I am hoping to get some users to help get community docs ready for Jaunty
<Rocket2DMn> Do you have anything specific you would like us to work on, mdke ?
<Rocket2DMn> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BeginnersTeam/FocusGroups/Wiki
<mdke> Rocket2DMn: nothing that springs to mind. I think the Bluetooth documentation could do with some work if there are people with some bluetooth devices. That way we could use the documents produced to add some system documentation on the subject
<Rocket2DMn> ill mention that mdke
<Rocket2DMn> We might try for another summer of documentation like we did last year.  This seems to be a good time to get volunteers as people tend to take time off and students are out of school
<Rocket2DMn> I want the Focus Group (FG) members to be working as part of the doc-team/wiki-team.  We are not a separate entity, we just happen to be on another team together which encourages users to get involved in other areas of ubuntu
<Rocket2DMn> for that reason i dont setup a mailing list for our FG or have a separate IRC channel for them
<Rocket2DMn> some FGs do
<mdke> Rocket2DMn: yes, I think that would be good. I'd like to use the same mailing list.
<mdke> Rocket2DMn: I'd be happy to add the LP group to ubuntu-doc, if you have one
<Rocket2DMn> mdke, i dont have a separate LP team for our wiki fg either, i have them join the WikiTeam and ubuntu-doc-students
<mdke> Rocket2DMn: that's fine
<mdke> would be great if you could lead a summer of documentation in terms of publicity on the fridge and elsewhere
<mdke> we should extend it to the whole community, not just the forums, and the key is to ensure that we have healthy and updated task lists for both system docs and wiki docs
<mdke> one way to kick it off would be to appeal to people about what they would like to see documented
<Rocket2DMn> mdke, the forums are my primary mode of communication b/c that's where i dedicate most of my time.  This may be of interest to you as well, from our Education Focus Group
<Rocket2DMn> http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1093535
<mdke> yes, I'm not saying you should ignore the forums, just extend the idea
<Rocket2DMn> proposed topics for sessions - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BeginnersTeam/FocusGroups/Education/Proposals
<Rocket2DMn> there could be one on wiki documentation
<Rocket2DMn> ah, there sorta is already "How to use the Ubuntu Wiki"
<Rocket2DMn> its not just for BT or forums, its for anybody, both teachers and students
<mdke> sure
<Rocket2DMn> i believe matthew helmke blogged about it, should be on planet
<mdke> I saw the post from bodhi.zazen
<mdke> (on the planet)
<Rocket2DMn> ah yeah i guess they both did
<Rocket2DMn> as much fun as it would be to try and organize users from all over, i have to focus my efforts a little in the interest of time
<mdke> ok, thats fine.
<Rocket2DMn> the BT has some really cool connections in the community, so we do manage to reach others as well
<mdke> it won't take any effort to take what you are doing and get it covered on the fridge
<mdke> someone else can do it :)
<Rocket2DMn> yeah, it can go in the fridge, and in uwn
<mdke> that's all I had in mind
 * Rocket2DMn write stuff down
<mdke> the key is just to ensure that when you post something, you don't limit participation in any way or make it seem like only members of the forum team can help - that way we will automatically get contribution from all over
<mdke> ok, i have to go now, cya later
<Rocket2DMn> I think one of the easiest things to have people do is work on pages that already exist, so this is what I like to focus on.  However, if people have new topics, that is cool, too.  I forgot who I was talking to, but I tihnk they metnioned bluetooth as well
<Rocket2DMn> peace mdke
<LjL> i might be mistaken, but wasn't there (at least as a work in progress) a hardware support list in the form of a database somewhere?
<LjL> as in, not the one on the wiki
<Rocket2DMn> LjL, i believe there are some universal ones for linux, but most ive seen specifically for Ubuntu have not lasted
<LjL> no, i was thinking Ubuntu specific. i vaguely recall hearing about that during the Open Week, or some meeting
<Rocket2DMn> http://www.ubuntuhcl.org/ ?
<LjL> Rocket2DMn: possibly that. but probably i was thinking http://hwdb.ubuntu.com/
<LjL> the latter at least seems something official.
<Rocket2DMn> ah, i didnt know about that
<Rocket2DMn> so where are the directions on how to use that?
<Rocket2DMn> is that just from System->Administration->Hardware Testing?
<LjL> Rocket2DMn: not sure. but i think it's really just the output from the, uh what's it called, the Reporting tool
<LjL> yes i do think so
<LjL> how good is ubuntuchl anyway?
<LjL> hcl even
<Rocket2DMn> i have no idea
<LjL> the wiki is sometimes a bit... uh, contradictory and confusing, it looks like
<LjL> which is not surprising when it comes to lists of hardware
<Rocket2DMn> yeah, the stuff on the wiki re: specific hardware, cant be trusted
#ubuntu-doc 2009-03-12
<vadi2> Hi, I have a question about a certain wiki page
<vadi2> Can https://wiki.ubuntu.com/TakingScreenshots be updated to include graphical tools?
<Rocket2DMn> hi vadi2 , it certainly can
<vadi2> Alright
<Rocket2DMn> wiki.ubuntu.com documentation is kinda thrown all over the place
<Rocket2DMn> most of our efforts focus on help.ubuntu.com
<Rocket2DMn> h.u.c houses the official documentation and also the community docs wiki at h.u.c./community
<vadi2> yeah
#ubuntu-doc 2009-03-13
<sayakb> hello. is it possible to allow only a specific usergroup of users to access certain pages on the wiki?
#ubuntu-doc 2009-03-15
<j1mc> mdke: are you around?
<j1mc> i'm going to be building the xubuntu-docs, and wanted some advice on what i should include for the debian changelog.
<j1mc> cody-somerville recommends listing the build as 9.04... but i'm not sure what to do about the ubuntu-doc history going all the way back to hoary.
#ubuntu-doc 2010-03-15
<antileet> Hey, I wanted some feedback on a documentation tool I'm working on. It's described here - http://www.scribd.com/doc/28414174/Tuxtorial . thanks
#ubuntu-doc 2010-03-17
<ZachK_> Hello??
<rww> ZachK_: hi!
<ZachK_> rww: What up?
<rww> ZachK_: nothing much, just reading how to use bzr :)
<ZachK_> A bazaar eh?
<ZachK_> rww: U on the wiki team?
<rww> ZachK_: I'm a newbie in the documentation team. I edit help.ubuntu.com very occasionally.
<ZachK_> rww: Any questions then?
<ZachK_> rww: ??
<rww> ZachK_: nope, thanks :)
<ZachK_> rww: Ok just wondering as wiki is my thing
<ZachK_> Hmmmm
<arand> Would it be okay to create a new MetaPackage page which links to MetaPackages? If so, how does one do a straight redirect like that?
<arand> Okay, I've just created https://help.ubuntu.com/community/EnablingPAE2 as a proposed start for cleaning up EnablingPAE, should I seek comments first or simply replace current EnablingPAE?
<geirha> If someone has any problems with it, it can easily be reverted ...
<arand> okay
<nixternal> groovy, phil is coming to the desktop help summit this weekend in chicago too...now if only we could have got that bum mdke out of the uk for a few days :p
<shaunm> I was surprised to see that phil was coming.  was pretty late before he confirmed
<nixternal> figures, the weather will be ass this weekend too
<nixternal> rain on saturday, snow on sunday
<nixternal> today, people are out in shorts, damn near 70
<nixternal> tomorrow will be even nicer
<shaunm> yeah
<nixternal> you are only 3 hours south right?
<nixternal> 2.5
<nixternal> 2.25 with a good tail wind :)
<shaunm> yeah, depending on your starting point
<shaunm> or ending point, from my view
<shaunm> O'Hare is basically a solid three hours for me
<nixternal> wait, i thought your were in southern illinois
<nixternal> or central rather
<nixternal> like champaign/urbana
<nixternal> for us in chicago, anything south of I80 is southern Illinois :)
#ubuntu-doc 2010-03-18
<gnomefreak> anyone think they will have time to write a page wiki or not to change the window control buttons to right hand side in Lucid? there are a few ways to do it but im finishing up updates and im gone for a day or 3
#ubuntu-doc 2010-03-19
<MegaTrousers> Greetings. I seem to be able to find the Ubuntu Packaging Guidelines for Edgy, but I can't seem to find its wiki for Karmic. Anyone have any ideas?
<MegaTrousers> Greetings. I seem to be able to find the Ubuntu Packaging Guidelines for Edgy, but I can't seem to find its wiki for Karmic. Anyone have any ideas?
#ubuntu-doc 2010-03-20
<ZachK__> ATTENTION ALL WIKI FOCUS GROUP MEMBERS
<ZachK__> Please pm me if you're currently a member of the wiki focus group or would like info on how to join
<ZachK__> hellooooo?
<ZachK__> heya vish
<vish> ZachK__: hi..
<ZachK__> vish: question for ya
<vish> ZachK__: shoot
<ZachK__> you a member of the Ubuntu Beginners WIki FG?
<vish> ZachK__: nope
<ZachK__> vish: know what it is?
<vish> ZachK__: not really , have you tried the #ubuntu-beginners channel?
<ZachK__> LMAO
<ZachK__> I'm a Master on that team
<vish> ZachK__: ah righto ;) now i remember you ;p
<vish> ZachK__: so who is it that has started a wiki without even your knowledge ;)
<ZachK__> I'm in the process of trying to figure out who's actually with the Wiki FG as I might be leading it soon....
<ZachK__> it's a subgroup of the team
<vish> ZachK__: let me see , i recall someone working on it.. it was issyl0 or nigelb i think
<ZachK__> nigelb is with Ubuntu Learning helping Pleia
<ZachK__> this is the group I'm referring to https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BeginnersTeam/FocusGroups/Wiki
<vish> ZachK__: I'm not really sure , i'm just taking wild guesses ;)
<ZachK__> gotcha
<ZachK__> look at the link?
<vish> yeah , saw the link and it seemed very unfamiliar :)
<ZachK__> gotcha
<pleia2> fwiw, I think it was mostly Rocket2DMn
<pleia2> (not me)
<pleia2> but I haven't really kept up
<philbull> Hey guys, I'm here at the Desktop Help Summit
<philbull> There's an IRC channel: #desktop-help on Freenode
<kjs_> any of you guys on twitter follow me @nixJedi
#ubuntu-doc 2011-03-14
<j1mc> hi all
<Lars2011> If I understand the instructions correctly on https://help.ubuntu.com/10.10/serverguide/C/nagios.html - the author implies we're to create a separate host file for every host we want to monitor. That's certainly different than in the past - am I missing something?
<Lars2011> quit
#ubuntu-doc 2011-03-15
<j1mc> hi all
#ubuntu-doc 2011-03-16
<jono> hey folks
<jono> I think it could be fun to have a Unity walkthough - anyone want to help with https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UnityFeatureWalkthrough ?
#ubuntu-doc 2011-03-17
<me2> is there any way to completely stealth my computer from the net ??   running "maverick" on amd 64
<j1mc> hi all
<zkriesse> j1mc: Wazzup!
#ubuntu-doc 2011-03-18
<zkriesse_> Hallo all
<zkriesse_> Who here would be interested in One: Helping out the Ubuntu Beginners Team with it's Wiki/Doc focus group and Two: Get more people (Hopefully) involved in wiki/doc work
<camelinahat> Huh.. thanks zkriesse_ .. I wasn't even familiar with the beginners team. Probably somewhere I should spend some time myself (particularly the wiki)
<zkriesse_> camelinahat: If you'd like to get involved please join #ubuntu-beginners-team
<camelinahat> Thanks I will
#ubuntu-doc 2011-03-20
<peppe84> bug #687450
<ubot2> Launchpad bug 687450 in ubuntu-docs "Replace totally F-Spot" [Low,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/687450
<peppe84> bug #723001
<ubot2> Launchpad bug 723001 in ubuntu-docs "no screensaver capability" [Medium,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/723001
<peppe84> need more fixing
#ubuntu-doc 2012-03-12
<bkerensa> Good Morning
<sagaci> morning bkerensa
#ubuntu-doc 2012-03-15
<skaet> https://launchpad.net/bugs/956554
<ubot2`> Launchpad bug 956554 in ubiquity-slideshow-ubuntu "[UIFe] Changes accumulated in the slideshow branch after UI freeze" [High,Triaged]
<skaet> we just discovered a bunch of string's had changed without a UIFe in the slideshow.
<skaet> in the process of uploading some translations.    To get things back into synch and pick up some other approved changes,  path of least pain was to accept the changes.   Not ideal.
<skaet> Please let me know if this change has caused problems.
 * skaet will try to catch jbitcha when he's online next
<skaet> jbicha even... sigh.
#ubuntu-doc 2012-03-16
<skaet> jbicha, around?
<skaet> jbicha, we discovered a bunch of string's had changed without a UIFe in the slideshow yesterday,  and couldn't intersect you to discuss .     Decided to go ahead as path of least total long term pain, and to get them infront of the translators as soon as possible.  However we may have overlooked something, and wanted your input - can you think of any?
<skaet> https://launchpad.net/bugs/956554
<ubot2`> Launchpad bug 956554 in ubiquity-slideshow-ubuntu "[UIFe] Changes accumulated in the slideshow branch after UI freeze" [High,Fix released]
 * skaet would rather take corrective action now, than cause panics next week.
<kjs> Hi guys, I am wanting to write an article on how to install wordpress on ubuntu, should I place this on the wiki? If so where?
<jbicha> skaet: we don't really document the normal installer so I would have given my +1 anyway
<kjs> jbicha: was that a response to me/
<skaet> jbicha,  coolio.   thanks,  I'll cross it off my tracking list.  :)
<jbicha> kjs: no, previous conversation; you can add that guide to the wiki, I don't know of a specific location off-hand, just look around & see what the other pages are doing
<kjs> jbicha: cool, thanks
<kjs> Sounds dumb, but how do I create a page? Normally on a wiki I would search for a topic and click create page if one does not already exist?
<jbicha> kjs: just visit the URL you want https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ThisIsMyNewAwesomePage and click Create a new empty page
<kjs> jbicha: thank you.
<kjs> How do i quote code on here? normally I would use preformatted or formatted text? What wiki are ubuntu using and I will look up the syntax.
<jbicha> kjs: the wiki is moinmoin
<kjs> ok I am stoked I can't find a decent category for Apache docs
<kjs> server team i guess
<peppe84> hi all. I've been try to build gnome-user-docs in html format. using italian language. anyone can explain me this error? http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/886807/
<peppe84> build in english languages works properly but I receive this messages: http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/886810/
<jbicha> peppe84: I believe the 886810 error is harmless
<peppe84> jbicha, I suppose. here work fine http://37.9.231.137/build/index.html
<peppe84> but in the firt case I don't know and I don't fine any docs that explain how to build in different languages.
<peppe84> s/fine/find
<jbicha> ./autogen.sh --prefix=/home/contumacia/precise/ubuntu-help/install/
<jbicha> make
<jbicha> cd ubuntu-help/it
<jbicha> yelp-build html *.page
<jbicha> I think...
<jbicha> actually, skip the commands after make and do cd html
<jbicha> edit the Makefile to do LN=it instead of LN=C
<jbicha> make
<peppe84> jbicha, .po generation now work. now I'll try to fix the style http://37.9.231.137/build/index.html
<peppe84> jbicha, but thanks a lot at the moment! :-)
<jbicha> the style should come from running make in the html directory
<peppe84> ok! now I'll try again ;-)
<peppe84> jbicha, yes, now is perfect http://37.9.231.137/build/ :-)
<jbicha> peppe84: now you just need to translate the screenshots too :)
<jbicha> but you should probably wait until after we make the screenshots for 12.04
<peppe84> we need to do some work :-) will look like this: http://ubuntu-it.org !
<jbicha> I think I'm going to have to beg skaet and the translators to push the documentation freeze back a week
#ubuntu-doc 2012-03-17
<littlegirl> Does anyone in here do any work on the Kubuntu docs?
<j1mc> littlegirl: i'm not sure. maybe Darkwing does, but i'm not sure.
<littlegirl> j1mc: Yeah, he does, thanks, but he isn't on. I got around it by rewriting that section. (:
<j1mc> ok : )
<jbicha> j1mc: howdy, good to hear work's going well for you
<j1mc> hey jbicha - thanks
<j1mc> i will feel better once i have the offer in hand, but i think it's a formality at this point.
<jbicha> it looks like we'll be down to the wire again for Ubuntu docs, I meant to blog more asking for contributors
<j1mc> when is string freeze?
<j1mc> i've been focusing more on gnome lately, but could pitch in some.
<jbicha> lol, docs freeze is supposedly in 5 or 6 days which isn't enough time
<jbicha> I'm going to ask for 1 more week, that should still give the translators plenty of time
<jbicha> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/PrecisePangolin/ReleaseSchedule
<j1mc> one more week makes sense
<j1mc> bbiab - laundry is done.
<jbicha> at least there was more time after UI Freeze than last cycle, & the UIFE's so far haven't really messed with Docs stuff as much
<jbicha> getting GNOME Shell 3.4 into Ubuntu took a lot of my effort the past two weeks, that was a headache
<jbicha> j1mc: you ever use meld? it's a lifesaver for merging the GNOME user guide into Ubuntu's fork
<j1mc> jbicha: no, i haven't used that. what is it?
<littlegirl> I was told string freeze is March 22.
<jbicha> littlegirl: that's correct
<jbicha> j1mc: http://meldmerge.org/
<jbicha> I couldn't imagine doing the merge without something like that
 * j1mc nods
<j1mc> it pulls in sweet, sweet dependencies, too.  "libbonobo2, libgnomeui"  :)
<j1mc> old skool
<littlegirl> I'm doing my first bzr push ever to the Launchpad server and this is what it says to me:
<littlegirl> he authenticity of host 'bazaar.launchpad.net (91.189.90.11)' can't be established.
<littlegirl> RSA key fingerprint is 9d:38:3a:63:b1:d5:6f:c4:44:67:53:49:2e:ee:fc:89.
<littlegirl> Are you sure you want to continue connecting (yes/no)?
<jbicha> haha, oh does it?
<littlegirl> Is there something I should have done in bzr first to establish the authenticity of the RSA key fingerprint?
<jbicha> littlegirl: I just hit yes, ssh does that the first time you connect
<j1mc> littlegirl: if it's your first push, i would say it's ok to accept it.
<j1mc> you didn't need to do anything beforehand
<jbicha> j1mc: meld recommends python-gnome2 which pulls in the old stuff
<littlegirl> Thanks. I may have waited too long. Trying it again.
<jbicha> littlegirl: yeah it gives a far more scary message if the key ever changes
<littlegirl> Hmmm, now it says this:
<littlegirl> Permission denied (publickey).
<littlegirl> bzr: ERROR: Connection closed: Unexpected end of message. Please check connectivity and permissions, and report a bug if problems persist.
<littlegirl> This is the command I've been using: bzr push lp:~littlergirl/kubuntu-docs/basics
<j1mc> littlegirl: did you set up your ssh key on launchpad?
<littlegirl> By the way, I totally agree about Meld. That program rules. (:
<littlegirl> j1mc: Yep, I did that last night. Is there somewhere I need to go to tell bzr about it?
<littlegirl> I don't know if you're able to view this page since it's within my account, but the key shows up here: https://launchpad.net/~littlergirl/+editsshkeys
<j1mc> littlegirl: when you do  "ls -l ~/.ssh/" what do you get?
<j1mc> it might be ssh permissions on your local computer
<littlegirl> -rw-r--r-- 1 little little  540 2012-03-16 22:03 known_hosts
<littlegirl> -rw-r--r-- 1 little little  646 2012-03-16 00:48 logofcreationofsshkey.txt
<littlegirl> -rw------- 1 little little 1743 2012-03-16 00:37 MySSHKey
<littlegirl> -rw-r--r-- 1 little little  399 2012-03-16 00:37 MySSHKey.pub
<littlegirl> The logofcreationofsshkey.txt file is something I made by copying everything in Bash so that I'd have a record of how it went.
<j1mc> can you try "chmod 644 MySSHKey.pub" and then re-enter the "ls -l" command?
<j1mc> sorry, "chmod 644 ~/.ssh/MySSHKey.pub"
<jbicha> I don't see her SSH key at https://launchpad.net/~littlergirl mine is listed on https://launchpad.net/~jbicha
<j1mc> sorry again. try this: "chmod 600 ~/.ssh/MySSHKey.pub"
<j1mc> jbicha: agreed
<littlegirl> -rw------- 1 little little  399 2012-03-16 22:10 MySSHKey.pub
<littlegirl> I generated it with kgpg. Should I try doing it another way?
<littlegirl> Whoops, never mind - that was my pgp key. Too many keys in too short of a time. (:
<j1mc> littlegirl: ok - i think your key permissions are set correctly now. but we still don't see your key up on launchpad.net
<j1mc> if you look at https://launchpad.net/~jwcampbell  ...  you'll see my SSH keys
<littlegirl> j1mc: Can I delete it and put it in again?
<j1mc> same for if you go to https://launchpad.net/~jbicha
<littlegirl> j1mc: Yeah, I see yours. Mine just has a little pencil for editing, but when I click edit, it's there.
<j1mc> you don't need to delete the keys and put them up again...
<littlegirl> Weehaw, now you should see it. (:
<littlegirl> I deleted it from Launchpad and pasted it in again and it took it. (:
<j1mc> littlegirl: https://help.launchpad.net/YourAccount/CreatingAnSSHKeyPair
<j1mc> look at "registering the key with launchpad"
<j1mc> littlegirl: ok - i see your key on launchpad now
<j1mc> you can try your upload again
<j1mc> "SSH keys: little@MYCOMPUTER"
<littlegirl> Trying the upload again gives me this: Permission denied (publickey).
<kjs> morning
<littlegirl> Morning. (:
<j1mc> littlegirl: try "chmod 600 ~/.ssh"
<littlegirl> j1mc: Hmmm, it still won't let me upload.
<littlegirl> It still says Permission denied (publickey). even after that command.
<j1mc> ok - maybe give it a few minutes - you just uploaded that key
<littlegirl> j1mc: Okay, will do. I feel bad, because I promised I'd get going on the documentation and I've got one done and am ready to do more. (:
<j1mc> littlegirl: also... can you move those "instructions" out of your .ssh folder?
<jbicha> littlegirl: don't feel bad, the first contribution takes a lot of effort
<j1mc> i doubt that owuld have an affect, but it can't hurt to not have that file in there.
<j1mc> jbicha: do you think launchpad might need a few minutes to fully register her key, or is there something else you can think of.
<littlegirl> LOL, I'm not allowed into the folder now. It says permission denied. How do I undo that last chmod 600 command?
<j1mc> littlegirl: sorry, try "chmod 644 ~/.ssh"
<jbicha> yeah the ssh key is there which is a good sign
<littlegirl> It still says access denied. I even closed Dolphin and opened it again.
<j1mc> ... see, i was writing up docs for seahorse, but didn't get them finished. this is what i get.
<j1mc> :(
<jbicha> littlegirl: what's your computer named? ie what comes after the @ sign in your terminal prompt?
<littlegirl> MYCOMPUTER
<jbicha> ok, just checking
<littlegirl> cd ~/.ssh
<littlegirl> bash: cd: /home/little/.ssh: Permission denied
<littlegirl> This has to be a government conspiracy. (: (: (:
<j1mc> littlegirl: sorry, try "chmod 700 ~/.ssh"
<littlegirl> j1mc: That worked. Okay, the log file I had made is gone. Trying the upload again...
<littlegirl> Nope, it's still giving me permission denied because of the public key.
<j1mc> can you enter the "ls -l ~/.ssh/" command again?
<jbicha> oh the government doesn't want you contributing to Kubuntu docs?
<littlegirl> jbicha: -rw------- 1 little little  399 2012-03-16 22:10 MySSHKey.pub
<littlegirl> jbicha: Anything is possible. (:
<j1mc> what about the other files?
<littlegirl> j1mc:
<littlegirl> -rw-r--r-- 1 little little  540 2012-03-16 22:03 known_hosts
<littlegirl> -rw------- 1 little little 1743 2012-03-16 00:37 MySSHKey
<jbicha> uh oh, what did you do with your MySSHKey.pub ?
<j1mc> jbicha: shouldn't there be something like "id_rsa.pub" or something?
<j1mc> not MySSHKey.pub?  :/  i'm not sure
<j1mc> not sure if it matters
<jbicha> this is mine: http://paste.ubuntu.com/887272/
<littlegirl> j1mc: Yeah, I'm reading the instructions page from the link above and I think, since I apparently didn't use a common name for the file, it's considered a custom file name, and it suggests I edit the config file and tell it which file to use for Launchpad.
<j1mc> i would probably use a common file name
<jbicha> id_rsa is default
<littlegirl> Then my permissions on my pub file are definitely wrong because groups and others can't read the file.
<littlegirl> Can I rename the file manually or will SSH get mad if I tamper with it?
<j1mc> i would try changing the files to "id_rsa" and "id_rsa.pub"
<j1mc> i think manually should be ok
<littlegirl> j1mc: Okay, trying that...
<j1mc> littlegirl: the permissions on keys are supposed to be more restrictive.
<jbicha> littlegirl: I don't think you necessarily have to let groups & others read your public keys, that's just the default
<j1mc> if they are set less restrictively, the server will reject them.
<littlegirl> That worked! Thanks so much!!!!
<littlegirl> Apparently it cared what the key names were. (:
<j1mc> woo!  the government ban on your kubuntu contributions has been rescinded!
<j1mc> sweet freedom. :)
<littlegirl> Weehaw! And you all were there for my very first push. (:
<j1mc> congrats
<littlegirl> j1mc: Thanks! I might still need help. I have a few more steps to follow before I'm done with it officially. (:
<j1mc> ok
<littlegirl> Oh, that is so cool. It looks like I'm good to go, and can have some fun with documentation. (:
<littlegirl> Thank you so much to all of you - I couldn't have done it without your help. (:
 * littlegirl hugs everyone
<vibhav> (12:25:08 PM) sabdfl: if Linux is just another way to run Windows apps, we can't win
<Steveiwonder> Hey All, I'm new to ubuntu im a windows bum  but want to change, can anyone recommend a good place to start? or should i just dive in ?
<bkerensa> Steveiwonder: should just dive in :D
#ubuntu-doc 2012-03-18
<littlegirl> Hey there, does anybody in here know the syntax for linking to another section in the same xml document?
#ubuntu-doc 2013-03-12
<knome> we need raring series for https://launchpad.net/xubuntu-docs - somebody can do that for us?
<knome> or would pushing something to lp:xubuntu-docs/raring create that?
#ubuntu-doc 2013-03-16
<knome> is there somebody who could bump  https://launchpad.net/xubuntu-docs  to raring series?
#ubuntu-doc 2014-03-13
<bkerensa> godbyk: we are getting close to doc freeze... Are things going good? Is there anything that needs attention?
#ubuntu-doc 2014-03-14
<knome> dsmythies1, the tarh graphic is up.
<dsmythies1> knome: Thanks. Yes, I saw it and I updated Desktop help docs yesterday.
<knome> ok, good
<pleia2> \o/
<dsmythies1> shaunm: are you around?
<dsmythies1> shaunm: So that people don't have to keep updating reference links, on help.ubuntu.com we have a generic link to the latest stable release documentation.
<dsmythies1> Example: https://help.ubuntu.com/stable/
<dsmythies1> I was wondering if GNOME might consider the same thing. For exampe for: https://help.gnome.org/users/cheese/
<dsmythies1> So that we don't have to change https://help.gnome.org/users/cheese/3.8/ to https://help.gnome.org/users/cheese/3.10/ in our external link changer script in the HTML compile every time the version changes.
<shaunm> dsmythies1: good news, that already works! :)
<shaunm> seems there's no links to it, but replace the version number with stable and it works
<dsmythies1> shaunm: Aghhh... Cool.  And yes, on the "no links to it" part, the same is true for help.ubuntu.com. I think I'll add note about it, with links, this cycle.
#ubuntu-doc 2014-03-15
<pleia2> hey doc friends
<pleia2> I had a chat with rickspencer3 (VP + Engineering guy at Canonical) earlier this week and we're hoping to find someone on the doc team who wants to work on the "what's new" section of the docs
<pleia2> so he can put said person in touch with someone in engineering who can help with that
<pleia2> so, volunteers? :)
<dsmythies1> pleia2: Gunnar, godbyk, and I have had some e-mails about the "what's new" section. Also Gunnar asked Stephen Webb for help. Gunnar has the lead (reluctantly) on this, and was going to work on it this weekend.
<pleia2> dsmythies1: ok, glad to hear it! feel free to ping rickspencer3 if you need more
<pleia2> he said he's happy to talk to anyone who needs, and is aware this is an issue every release
<dsmythies1> pleais2: We need more.
<pleia2> ok, want me to loop you, godbyk and gunnar in on an email with Rick?
<dsmythies1> Yes, please, that would be great and as a segway.
<pleia2> will do momentarily
 * dsmythies1 wonders why he stilll shows as dsmythies1 to others but dsmythies on this own machine, and even after forcing the nickname yesterday...
<pleia2> lots of netsplits :\
<pleia2> makes things weird
<knome> dsmythies1, /msg nickserv ghost dsmythies
<knome> dsmythies1, /nick dsmythies
<dsmythies> knome: Thanks.
#ubuntu-doc 2015-03-15
<Na3iL> hey folks!
<pleia2> hello Na3iL
<Na3iL> hiya pleia2 hows u :)
<pleia2> great, you?
<Na3iL> fine :)
<Na3iL> am thinking on a new project to contribute to Ubuntu.. called TalkUbuntu where we did a deadline for a meeting with Ubuntu users and advocate open-source, coffees something like this
<Na3iL> what u think?
<pleia2> I think a better channel for that is #ubuntu-locoteams
<pleia2> Local/Community (LoCo) teams are the ones that arrange that sort of in person meetup :)
<Na3iL> I understand but I was here just to search for an interested pple
<pleia2> you might also check out Ubuntu Hours https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Hour many teams do them
<Na3iL> ah I see
<pleia2> this channel is for talking about Ubuntu documentation, not for recruiting people for your teams
<Na3iL> haha xD oups sorry :)
<pleia2> no worries, just want to make sure you get to the right place :)
<Na3iL> thanks pleia2
<Na3iL> by the way how i can help with Ubuntu documentation..
<pleia2> it depends on what you want to work on and what your expertise is in, we always need folks reviewing desktop documentation and server documentation, as well as updating articles as they find errors on help.ubuntu.com/community/ (which is a wiki)
<Na3iL> I see, am always turning around in the wiki.ubuntu.com
<pleia2> wiki.ubuntu.com isn't for ubuntu user documentation, that's used for teams
<pleia2> so it's not really something we work on here
<Na3iL> ah am a member on the Ubuntu-tn LoCo team, so am always there helping with documentation for our events.. for that I was wondering that
#ubuntu-doc 2016-03-17
<ric_s> Hi. I can not log in to the wiki. Iâm in the "Ubuntu Etherpad instance" team. The error it gives is this: "OpenID error: Nonce already used or out of range.â Anyone know how to log in on the wiki?
<pmatulis> ric_s: which wiki?
<ric_s> Ubuntu Wiki
<knome> ric_s, you could try to explicitly log out first via https://wiki.ubuntu.com/?action=logout&logout=logout
<ric_s> from what I read, because of spam problems, just who is in some teams can edit, but I can not
<knome> the team you are in should be enough
<ric_s> knome, did not work...
<knome> some peopple have ended up in some blacklist for a while
<knome> so maybe it's that...
<knome> if you have a small one-time edit, i can do that later if you tell me what you want to change though
<ric_s> I reported some bugs related to this list: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/AppStream/Icons/IconErrors
<ric_s> needed update Claimed field and Bug
<knome> ric_s, if you tell me which lines/bugs/nick, i can do the edit for you
<ric_s> ok knome, wait a moment. Thank you
<ric_s> but it is annoying I can not edit, I see no reason to be in blacklist
<knome> yes, the situation is not ideal, but...
<ric_s> knome, I will send the links in pvt
<ric_s> Tks knome :)
#ubuntu-doc 2016-03-19
<dsmythies> tsimonq2: Yes, I am here. Note: I am not normally here.
<tsimonq2> dsmythies: hello :)
<dsmythies> We appreciate your help.
<tsimonq2> I'm glad to lend a hand. :)
<dsmythies> tsimonq2: I did my push of the serverguide, if you want to to pull to start from there.
<tsimonq2> I'm working on a merge proposal now to replace apt-get with apt. :)
<tsimonq2> okay, I'll check it out quick
<dsmythies> tsimonq2: I am only aware of Ted Cox doing other edits, which might lead to conflict.
<tsimonq2> Alright
<tsimonq2> dsmythies: it's a little sad we don't have more MPs :)
<dsmythies> tismonq2: It is very sad indeed. Myself, for this cycle, I lost an enormous amount of time attempting to get a working 16.04 server.
<tsimonq2> wow
<tsimonq2> dsmythies: By the way, tab autocompletion is a thing. :)
<tsimonq2> (in IRC)
<dsmythies> tsimonq2: Oh, very cool. I am not very IRC savy.
<tsimonq2> dsmythies: we all start somewhere :)
<knome> dsmythies, or typing-savvy ;)
<tsimonq2> dsmythies: would it be a good idea to link https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/SystemDocumentation/UbuntuServerGuide or https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/SystemDocumentation on https://launchpad.net/serverguide ?
<tsimonq2> because I think it is a good idea
<dsmythies> knome: I am an engineer, and can not spell. I stump spell checkers on a daily basis.
<knome> dsmythies, no worries, i'm just kidding. :)
<dsmythies> tsimonq2: Yes, that is proably a good idea.
<dsmythies> probably
<tsimonq2> dsmythies: well, like, "To contribute to the Server guide, visit LINK"
<tsimonq2> dsmythies: https://code.launchpad.net/~tsimonq2/serverguide/apt-get-to-apt/+merge/289552
<dsmythies> tsimonq2: I'll look right away. I emailed Ted, that there might be changes to the file he is working on. There were many changes by me yesterday also.
<tsimonq2> alright :)
<knome> time to go to bed
<knome> night! :)
<tsimonq2> have a good night knome :)
<dsmythies> knome: good night.
<dsmythies> tsimonq2: I do not see a "-y" option in the man pages for apt. However I do for apt-get. Reference line 938 of your MP.
<tsimonq2> dsmythies: this enough proof? http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/15421445/ :)
<tsimonq2> dsmythies: itm ight not be in the man page
<tsimonq2> *it might
<tsimonq2> I'll double check and submit a pull request for their man pages if it's a problem :)
<dsmythies> tsimonq2: O.K. looks good. I'll merge into mine, do a check build (takes considerable time), then push.
<dsmythies> Oh, it is at rev 269, I expected 260.
<dsmythies> I mean 270
<tsimonq2> dsmythies: do you have a beefy computer or not? if not, merge into your branch, link me and get me instructions, I have a 6 core AMD processor with 16 GB of RAM. :)
<dsmythies> tsimonq2: My server is beefy enough, and older i7 (4 core, 8 CPU) and 16GB. Build is largely single threaded and I build all 60 plus languages.
<tsimonq2> oh nice, okay :)
<tsimonq2> you 2up me on CPU cores :D
<dsmythies> tsimonq2: It is also running some busy VM's at the moment.
<tsimonq2> ahh okay
<tsimonq2> well if you need my machine's help, I'm here :)
<dsmythies> tsimonq2: I'll be out of time soon, as I have to make dinner for my wife and daugther. They are at workout at the moment, so we eat late on Friday night.
<tsimonq2> alright :)
<tsimonq2> dsmythies: what's your time zone?
<dsmythies> tsimonq2: Pacific (Vancouver Canada) 19:29 now.
<dsmythies> tsimonq2: How about yourself?
<tsimonq2> Central time :)
<tsimonq2> dsmythies: whoops lol replied twice to the MP :)
<dsmythies> tsimonq2: Still building...
<tsimonq2> alright :)
<dsmythies> tsimonq2: Merged. Thanks.
<tsimonq2> cool, thanks dsmythies :)
 * dsmythies off to make dinner.
<tsimonq2> okay, thanks again dsmythies, bye! :)
<kmph> Since I cannot edit https://help.ubuntu.com/community/ParentalControls even after creating an account just for this purpose and logging in
<kmph> Where can I request an edit to be made?
<kmph> The issue is that you suggest Firefox addons for parental control
<kmph> And I found at least one of them to be easily bypassable by anyone who has at least rudimentary technical knowledge or simply some wits
<kmph> Also the very idea to enforce parental control via browser add-ons seems unsound
<kmph> If you recommend this way to do parental control please put a notice that this is not a very secure way
<dsmythies> kmph: Is that you that emailed the doc-team list just now? If yes, that was the correct thing to do. The site is locked down due to spam. I think the admins would like your exact suggested edits, I'll try to find a reference e-mail, but can not look at this moment.
<kmph> dsmythies: Yes, I mailed the doc-team list. Not sure what you mean by âa reference e-mailâ?
<dsmythies> kmph: I mean this: https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-doc/2016-February/019691.html
<kmph> ah, thanks. Just a sec.
#ubuntu-doc 2016-03-20
<tsimonq2> dsmythies: fixed up that MP :)
#ubuntu-doc 2017-03-13
<nicomachus> hi all. The openJDK/java page is pretty well out of date: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Java
<nicomachus> "Currently, there are two versions available, openjdk-6 and openjdk-7."
<nicomachus> apt-cache search only lists 8 and 9 though
