#ubuntustudio-devel 2010-11-08
<holstein> http://blogs.computerworld.com/17303/ubuntu_abandons_x_server_for_wayland?source=rss_blogs
<holstein> i think we are going to have to look at a good lond term solution
<holstein> instead of just using gnome from the repo
<holstein> when unity becomes default
<holstein> long term solution*
 * abogani waves
<abogani> Anyone know if fglrx works on Lucid -rt kernel (2.6.31)?
<ScottL> http://gnuguitarinux.sourceforge.net/     interestng, livecd for guitarist basically
<astraljava> abogani: Sorry, no hardware to test that.
<abogani> astraljava: Thanks anyway. :-)
<abogani> falktx: May I disturb you for a couple of simple questions?
<falktx> abogani: sure
<abogani> falktx: Thanks
<abogani> falktx: About that packages https://launchpad.net/~falk-t-j/+archive/lucid/+sourcepub/1279298/+listing-archive-extra
<abogani> falktx: Is it works?
<falktx> abogani: yes
<falktx> at least they compile
<falktx> (cant really test it cause I have intel)
<abogani> falktx: No any further test?
<abogani> falktx: Moreover why you have chose 8.762 when in Lucid there is 8.723? 
<falktx> abogani: i think a user reported it to work
<falktx> abogani: i copied it from xorg-updates ppa and added the rt patch
<abogani> falktx: Ah ok.
<falktx> I'll update them again when I have time
<abogani> falktx: Ok
<abogani> falktx: That's all! Thank you very much and sorry for disturb!
<falktx> abogani: you dont disturb
<falktx> i'm always glad to help anywhere I can
 * abogani is wondering if there are any fglrx users here...
<holstein> abogani: i'll look at this laptop i just got in
<holstein> assuming i can get it to boot ;)
<holstein> i could run some tests with it before i give it back
<holstein> other than that i would have older ATI hardware
#ubuntustudio-devel 2010-11-09
<abogani> holstein: Sorry to bother you. I would want know if there a working combination with -rt/-realtime kernels and fglrx driver. For example Lucid -rt kernel (2.6.31) works with Lucid fglrx driver?
<quadrispro> ScottL, naspro is available in Natty
<quadrispro> then (new software in natty)...
<quadrispro> jack-mixer
<TheMuso> quadrispro: Thanks for your help re rtkit.
<quadrispro> TheMuso, ehy! you're welcome!
<quadrispro> TheMuso, how are you? Do you have other good things for Debian?
<TheMuso> quadrispro: Yes, but on other fronts, mostly a11y. Being frozen atm is a slight pain however.
<quadrispro> ah ok
<quadrispro> have you had a look at new JACK stuff uploaded?
<TheMuso> quadrispro: Do you mean jack clients, or the jack servers themselves?
<quadrispro> JACK toys (-mixer,-keyboard)
<quadrispro> and more are coming
<TheMuso> Right, no I haven't looked.
<TheMuso> SOmewhat busy with more important audio matters, and unity a11y for this cycle.
<quadrispro> ah yes, I understand
<ScottL> quadrispro, awesome!  thanks
#ubuntustudio-devel 2010-11-10
<aiyer> Hi, i'm interested in helping out with UbuntuStudio
<quadrispro> bye guys, going to sleep
<aiyer> I read this blog post -- http://dullass.blogspot.com/2010/08/state-of-ubuntu-studio-2010.html and thought that I would like to get involved in open source development.
<aiyer> Although, I know that the post is 3 months old, I thought i'd inquire and see if I could offer any assistance
<aiyer> So, whom do I contact and what do I say?
<ScottL> hi ariyer 
<ScottL> doh, sorry, thought you were aiyer
#ubuntustudio-devel 2010-11-12
<abogani> From https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UDSProceedings/N/Final: "low-latency will remain a community supported flavour. "
<falktx> hi abogani
<falktx> abogani: do you plan to keep/maintain the natty lowlatency kernel ?
<abogani> falktx: I really don't know.
<falktx> abogani: it would be nice if you did
<falktx> many people seem to use the lowlatency kernel, and I understand why
<falktx> it's like realtime, but it doesnt have the issues
<abogani> falktx: Not so much evidently.
<scott-work> but firewire users will still need the realtime kernel :(
<quadrispro> falktx, I had a look at j2sc
<quadrispro> without trying, I should do it soon
<falktx> quadrispro: it's outdated
<quadrispro> falktx, does it work fine with jackd2?
<quadrispro> ah well :)
<quadrispro> scott-work, hello!
<quadrispro> hi abogani !
<falktx> quadrispro: let me push a new release to sourceforge...
<quadrispro> falktx, take your time :)
<scott-work> hi quadrispro , how are you doing
<quadrispro> scott-work, fine here, thanks! and you?
<scott-work> quadrispro: how hard do you think it would be add JACK functionality to an app like mumber?
<scott-work> quadrispro: i'm overwhelmed right now by work and family life :/  i think i'm going slowly mad :P
<scott-work> s/mumber/mumble
<falktx> scott-work: i already have a patch for audio output through jack
<scott-work> falktx: is it a patch that can be submitted into the archives?
<scott-work> that would be my goal
<holstein> its not ideal though
<holstein> right falktx ?
<holstein> just a quick and dirty fix?
<falktx> holstein: yep, someone send it to me once
<holstein> i think thats why its not submitted
<falktx> yep
<quadrispro> pardon, the phone
<quadrispro> scott-work, no too hard, if done by upstream :) otherwise it needs a bit of time
<falktx> quadrispro: you should check this - http://repo.or.cz/w/cadence.git
<falktx> screenshot - http://kxstudio.sourceforge.net/tmp/scr002.jpg
<scott-work> quadrispro: eh, upstream didn't seem to happy about it really
<falktx> not yet ready, but works
<quadrispro> what's this falktx ?
<scott-work> falktx: i like the little icons on the top, left
<falktx> quadrispro: scott-work: my new app
<falktx> or apps
<falktx> just try it
<quadrispro> cool, I will
<falktx> get the code, compile (needs python and python-qt4-dev) an run "python src/catia.py"
<falktx> quadrispro: tell me what you think
<quadrispro> falktx, ah please, don't rely on a Makefile, use distutils instead
<falktx> quadrispro: i have to check on a tutorial first
<quadrispro> so: write a small setup.py script, it would be better to manage through DH
<quadrispro> falktx, if I find some time, I'll provide you a brief script
<falktx> i'll look into it later
<falktx> quadrispro: what do you think about festige ?
<falktx> i removed the pyjack dependency
<quadrispro> scott-work, omg, I have ~30 channels,queries opened, I'm going mad too :(
<quadrispro> falktx, sincerely: I don't remember :) there were some issues which blocked us to make a package...
<falktx> quadrispro: i'll be happy to solve this issues
<falktx> quadrispro: j2sc new release - https://sourceforge.net/projects/j2sc/files/0.1.1/
<falktx> quadrispro: have you tried it?
<quadrispro> not yet
<quadrispro> falktx, please file an ITP for festige
<falktx> ITP ?
<quadrispro> Intent To Package
<quadrispro> falktx, reportbug wnpp
<quadrispro> no falktx, sorry
<quadrispro> $ reportbug -B debian wnpp
<falktx> i'll try
<falktx> quadrispro: first time i do this...
<scott-work> after natty seeds and the updated website progress a bit more i'm hoping to get a "Ubuntu Studio Store" started like cory had intended previously
<quadrispro> falktx, there is always a first time :))
<scott-work> i hope to use the proceeds to fund some development work
<scott-work> e.g. adding JACK to mumble (or something similar)
<falktx> scott-work: US store ?
<scott-work> falktx: i imagine that i need to clear all this with canonical first, but i wanted to talk to linux outlaws about their store and hopefull it will be global (or US and non-US)
<falktx> cool
<quadrispro> guys, I have to leave
<quadrispro> see you later
<falktx> cya!
<scott-work> by quadrispro 
<scott-work> er bye
<quadrispro> byeguys
<holstein> quadrispro: :)
 * falktx just send the bug report to debian
#ubuntustudio-devel 2011-11-07
<scott-upstairs> i want to email most of the people that i met and basically tell them that i enjoyed meeting them :)
<astraljava> That's good. I wish I could do that.
<scott-upstairs> astraljava, have you ever been to a uds?
<scott-upstairs> i don't know that i can fully describe the effect it had on me
<scott-upstairs> this reminds me when i first really got into computer and hacking on things
<astraljava> Nope.
<scott-upstairs> the energy is palpable and infectious
<scott-upstairs> all i want to do is work on ubuntu stuff now...seriously :)
<scott-upstairs> i still need to write a final blog post about uds
<scott-upstairs> i was overwhelmed by the first three days
<knome> scott-upstairs, uds has a powerful effect on you... but don't let it fool you. not all the people are really that excited about it as you are.
<scott-upstairs> the last two were more about understand how effective i can be with what i learned
<knome> scott-upstairs, everybody always say "yeah let's do x, y and z" in uds, but that rarely happens
<knome> sorry to be so negative
<scott-upstairs> knome, oh, i know
<knome> but that's what i learned from uds :P
<scott-upstairs> and i am trying to be very careful about the goals i set, especially for the team
<scott-upstairs> we have tried to do too much every cycle
<scott-upstairs> i have considered our goals very serious for several weeks now
<knome> yeah
<scott-upstairs> and even pointed it out to many people on the team to evaluate what we are going to do
<scott-upstairs> my concern is that everyone said, "yes, we can do this"
<scott-upstairs> but i worry that everyone will not be doing it
<knome> that's the problem
<scott-upstairs> aye
<scott-upstairs> but i still think it is possible even if i become extremely involved with almost everything
<knome> just remember not to micromanage
<scott-upstairs> i will continue to delegate work at most opportunities
<knome> let people work on the details and the bigger things too
<knome> and just approve general lines
<scott-upstairs> but i have a feeling that i will be 'plan B'
<knome> ;)
<scott-upstairs> okay, dinner time, back in a bit
<knome> will be back tomorrow
<scott-upstairs> i'm back
<len> hello. First time on IRC... anyway I have been following the logs a bit and had some thoughts on the reybird or other themes.
<len> I use focus follows mouse though that may make not much difference. But I find greybird has the window decoration so close between focus and not it is hard to find which text box I am using. I sort of enjoyed the phasex theme (dark) as the focused window is bright green and easy to see.
<len> But... text box colours had for/background the same colour and unreadable.
<len> I ended up using the window manager theme "Biz" for really clear textbox use and xcfe-stellar for the appearance theme. For a neutral theme but clearly marked focused window for better work flow.
<len> Just put mail in the mailing list sorry to repeat.
<ScottL> hi len, reading what you wrote
<ScottL> oh, don't apologize!  we appreciate the feedback
<ScottL> i will look at the "biz" theme later
<jasonmchristos> I think the switch to xfce wasnt the best idea
<jasonmchristos> A studio machine shouldnt really be a netbook it should be able to run the full featured desktop
<holstein> jasonmchristos: have you checked out unity?
<jasonmchristos> especially since xfce doesnt come with disk utility
<jasonmchristos> disk utility is necisarry to format drives for recording
<jasonmchristos> and gparted isnt the most versatile
<holstein> jasonmchristos: our xfce can come with the disk utility
<jasonmchristos> well put it on there
<holstein> i prefer gparted though, and hadnt noticed yet
<holstein> jasonmchristos: you want to suggest that via the email list?
<jasonmchristos> well the benchmarking is important
<holstein> eh
<jasonmchristos> gparted doesnt tdo benchmarking also
<holstein> there are other tools though
<jasonmchristos> you need to know disk throughput for live recording
<jasonmchristos> very important
<holstein> sure
<holstein> but, lets say you run a test
<holstein> and the disk is not 'happening'
<jasonmchristos> but disk utility does both in one
<holstein> what are you going to do?
<holstein> you cant do anything about it
<holstein> you format ext and 'get what you get'
<holstein> not that im against that tool
<jasonmchristos> you change drives
<holstein> its in the repos though
<holstein> you just install it
<jasonmchristos> doesnt matter
<holstein> we have access to the same packages
<holstein> jasonmchristos: ?
<holstein> how so?
<jasonmchristos> lower the recording bps
<holstein> its installable for you
<holstein> the package
<jasonmchristos> ok
<holstein> you feel like its manditory?
<holstein> i like it on the live CD's for sure
<jasonmchristos> should come by default
<holstein> jasonmchristos: i see it in my xubuntu install here
<holstein> jasonmchristos: what are you referencing?
<jasonmchristos> how else does someone calculate the proper recording bps to be handled by the disk throughput
<holstein> just that XFCE probably doesnt have it?
<holstein> because i think xubuntu has it
<holstein> and we'll likely just have it
<jasonmchristos> disk utility palimpset with the bnchmarking feature
<holstein> jasonmchristos: i just format properly personally
<holstein> and dont track to the same disk my OS is on
<jasonmchristos> doesnt matter 
<jasonmchristos> you need to know throughput exactly
<holstein> but, 'disk utility' is in xubuntu
<holstein> jasonmchristos: ?
<holstein> right
<holstein> but what do you do about it?
<holstein> it is what it is
<holstein> you can change it
<holstein> cant*
<jasonmchristos> to calculate what quality that you can record at
<holstein> so who cares
<jasonmchristos> also adding the sync mount option
<holstein> jasonmchristos: listen
<jasonmchristos> holstein: you decide what bit depth to record to it by what it will take
<holstein> im not arguing it shouldnt be ther
<holstein> e
<jasonmchristos> and you may be able to change it
<jasonmchristos> you might notice the DMA settings are off
<holstein> jasonmchristos: yeah, im just not sure i agree
<holstein> i dont juggle my quality settings aroung like that
<jasonmchristos> but even if you cant you then change the size of the bitstream you re writing
<holstein> i just do a clean multiple of 44.1
<holstein> and call it a day
<holstein> but again
<holstein> im not arguing it shouldnt be there
<holstein> jasonmchristos: what makes you think its not there?
<holstein> it might be..
<jasonmchristos> i installed 11.10
<jasonmchristos> and it had gparted
<holstein> ok
<jasonmchristos> no disk utility
<holstein> and you want the disk utility
<jasonmchristos> nothing to benchmark with
<holstein> jasonmchristos: in the mean time, you can install it
<holstein> jasonmchristos: yeah
<holstein> i get it
<holstein> jasonmchristos: you want to send an email to the dev list?
<jasonmchristos> you cant get the live recording done proper unless you calculate disk throughput
<holstein> jasonmchristos: right
<jasonmchristos> you need to be writing sync
<holstein> yup
<jasonmchristos> otherwise you run out of buffer
<holstein> i understand
<holstein> i just have *never* had that problem
<jasonmchristos> well what do you do?
<holstein> i test 24/96 with 8 channels
<holstein> and it works
<holstein> no xruns
<holstein> and i just move on
<holstein> but, its in the repos for 11.10
<jasonmchristos> that has nothing to do with xruns
<holstein> and it can be added
<holstein> jasonmchristos: it can be added man
<jasonmchristos> im talking about writing to the HD
<holstein> its not a big deal
<holstein> jasonmchristos: i am too ;)
<holstein> i can write 8 tracks of 24/96
<holstein> no issues
<jasonmchristos> no xruns has to do with bitstreams of the in/outs 
<holstein> but i dont do that
<jasonmchristos> once its outed it needs to be written
<holstein> right
<jasonmchristos> to HD
<jasonmchristos> or outed to a magnetic tape
<holstein> and its *never* been a problem for me
<holstein> but, i like the disk utility
<holstein> i like the testing features on the live CD's
<jasonmchristos> ok
<jasonmchristos> why do you guys want input
<holstein> that has nothing to do with XFCE though right?
<jasonmchristos> if you never listen
<holstein> jasonmchristos: ?
<holstein> im listening
<holstein> and agreeing actually
<jasonmchristos> im telling you put disk utility on by default
<holstein> im not a dev either
<holstein> jasonmchristos: right
<holstein> we cant go back and put it in 11.10
<holstein> thats over
<holstein> it'll have to be proposed for 12.04
<holstein> unless it was just a glitch that its not in 11.10
<jasonmchristos> ok
<holstein> jasonmchristos: +
<jasonmchristos> im just trying to help
<holstein> sending an email to the dev lise is the way to go
<jasonmchristos> i reverted to 10.10
<holstein> 10.04 is the LTS
<holstein> FYI
<holstein> thats what im running on my production rig
<jasonmchristos> yeah i shouldve done 10.04 because it has the RT kernel
<holstein> anyways, is that all about XFCE?
<holstein> the move to XFCE was not done in haste
<holstein> we feel its the most like what we had
<holstein> the most 'desktop' feeling
<holstein> and the most like gnome2
<jasonmchristos> i thought 10.10 would also i liked 10.10 better because it comes stock with mc cloning in the network settings
<jasonmchristos> so the move to xfce was done because of gnome 3
<holstein> we had to do something
<holstein> change was forced on us all
<holstein> and thats fine
<jasonmchristos> i see
<jasonmchristos> good point
<holstein> ive been living in XFCE for a week now
<holstein> i like it
<holstein> its not my studio box, but i feel like it'll be nice there too
<jasonmchristos> you didnt think kde wouldve been better ?
<holstein> *i* didnt
<holstein> KDE is too heavy feeling in my opinion
<holstein> but, its nothing like gnome2 for sure
<holstein> and the apps are quite different
<jasonmchristos> xfce is just so stripped and something doing live audio production should handle a bulkier desktop system
<holstein> or you could argue that system resources should be given to the system, not the desktop
<jasonmchristos> seems like with the RT options it doesnt hurt ecause any daemons are locked out for the RT processes
<holstein> we'll just need to do some testing for that
<jasonmchristos> so it shouldnt hurt to have a bulkier desktop with benchmarking capabilities
<holstein> sure
<holstein> but, again, you can install kubuntu, and add the studio stuff
<holstein> or studio, and install KDE
<holstein> its not set in stone
<holstein> its just the most like gnome2
<holstein> the base
<jasonmchristos> i agree it was likely a better option than that gnome 3 netbook looking desktop
<holstein> the end user always has the option
<holstein> LXDE is nice, and was on the list as well
<holstein> but we felt that was *so* light
<jasonmchristos> i think gnome2 shoyld be forked myself
<holstein> eh, its over
<holstein> it will be, but its over
<jasonmchristos> dead?
<holstein> yeah
<jasonmchristos> someone killed the gnome?
<holstein> gnome2
<holstein> gnome is there, and in the repos too
<jasonmchristos> hmm
<holstein> gnome shell or whatever it is
<holstein> but, XFCE is well maintained and not bare-bones minimal
<holstein> with a nice light set of core apps
<jasonmchristos> ok
<ScottL> wow,holstein, you handled that better than  i think i would/could have :)
<ScottL> i was getting frustrated just reading that conversation ;)
<astraljava> Mike's the man.
<astraljava> We need to hold on to him as best we can, we can't afford to lose him.
<holstein> astraljava, ScottL, hehe
<holstein> i thought i had lost a bit of patients and crossed a line maybe
<holstein> im glad it doesnt seem that way
<holstein> some folks just want to have a problem though
<holstein> i can relate with the frustration though
<holstein> finding where/who to complain to can be challenging
<holstein> and taking the extra step of *not* complaining and actually helping fix things is ideal i suppose
<astraljava> holstein: I didn't know you were a doctor, and apparently not a very good one at that.
<scott-work> wuh?  i missed this one
<astraljava> < holstein> i thought i had lost a bit of patients and crossed a line maybe
<scott-work> oh! i think i know where this is from then, he did better than i would have
<astraljava> You're missing the point.
<scott-work> sorry, i'm a bit distracted being back at work because i really don't want to be back at work and i just want to work on ubuntu or ubuntu studio.....badly
<astraljava> I understand that. And it's different for you native speakers, cause you see how it's pronounced and get it with the context.
<scott-work> but i think i understand our point..."patients" as in a doctor and lossing it as in a patient dieing
<scott-work> your, not our
<scott-work> just a moment, i'm going to relog as i realize i'm messing a few channels
<astraljava> Ok.
<scott-work> okay, back, i now have a few more channels like i expected
<scott-work> firefox with pinned tabs behaves slightly wonky sometimes
<scott-work> oh, one more missing, brb
<scott-work> argghh!
<scott-work> okay, i think that is it
<scott-work> astraljava: i forget where you are from and i don't want to insult you by guessing ;)  can you tell me again?
<scott-work> oh, and i'm going to make a prediction (although i hope it isn't true)....
<scott-work> the lowlatency kernel will not be accomplished until quite late in this cycle
<astraljava> Finland.
<astraljava> How late?
<scott-work> i'm still amazed at how so much of the rest of the world can speak multiple languages compared to the us, astraljava , it's bloody impressive
<scott-work> oh, i'm just guessing about the kernel, i don't actually know anything about it, just a gut feeling
<scott-work> but i think the kernel guys will get wrapped up in their own stuff but i'm going to try to keep up with one of the guys who is most involved and poke him from time to time ;)
<astraljava> Well, you have the advantage of being natives for one of the most universal languages. The rest of us have to struggle.
<astraljava> Sounds like a plan.
<scott-work> astraljava: most everyone i interface with (including yourself) do a wonderful job!  i am very serious about that
<scott-work> i find most actually write it better than many of those that are native speakers
<scott-work> quite frankly, it's a bit humbling
<astraljava> Thanks. We also learn it differently. We often lack in pronunciation, but might even do better in spelling.
<astraljava> That's only because we're taught differently.
<astraljava> We don't hear it all the time, so we need to learn how words are spelt, and after that we learn how they're pronounced.
<astraljava> And we need to think about everything more, so we're more careful.
<scott-work> astraljava: i feel that most americans do not spell very well and that our written language is being corrupted by people who don't value speaking or writting properly
<scott-work> irc and text messaging doesn't help on that front either
<astraljava> True. And tweeting makes it all the more worse.
<scott-work> i don't say banish the tools, i wish we could just appreciate writing and speaking more
<scott-work> i don't mind slang, but it should be balanced with the ability to use the proper words as well
<scott-work> but i'm funny like that and other areas as well
<scott-work> books, for example.  i really don't like writing in a book or folding a corner over as a bookmark
<astraljava> Well, whatever it's worth, I'm with you there.
<scott-work> look at this - ubuntu studio on g+: https://plus.google.com/102125777892703446963
<astraljava> Nice.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2011-11-08
<ScottL> new blog post:  http://dullass.blogspot.com/2011/11/uds-p-day-4-and-5-or-efficacy-is-eight.html
<ScottL> get's kinda weird, but oh well
<len> The Oneiric Ocelot link leads to Precise Pangolin. Is there anything on there worthtesting yet?
<len> Should I download it? The mailing list seems to say there are some uninstallable things on it, but are there other things that need testing?
<holstein> len: hey
<holstein> im looking at dual head
<holstein> i was probably just going to install xubuntu for now
<len> So I should download install and try dual head? Xubuntu has the same stuff?
<len> I can test dual head on my netbook easy, but the desktop would be much harder.
<holstein> len: well, its not so much testing it
<holstein> but seeing what works, and how
<holstein> im looking at arandr right now
<holstein> the included tool does mirroring or cloning
<holstein> whatever you call it
<holstein> to do spanning, i needed another tool
<holstein> tried grandr
<len> So hardware is not the issue so much as software right now.
<holstein> eh
<holstein> depends
<holstein> len: you have anything USB 3?
<holstein> that would be nice
<holstein> i have firewire
<holstein> and some USB gear
<holstein> len: we need to see how JACK is working with the -generic kernel for folks
<len> I have mostly old stuff and cheaper stuff. I have a family to feed
<holstein> and different hardware cases
<holstein> len: thats fine
<holstein> even if its old internals
<holstein> thats still a test case
<holstein> len: welcome, by the way :)
<holstein> \o/
<len> I have a d66
<len> Thanks
<holstein> are you from the mailing list?
<len> Ja
<holstein> len: COOL
<holstein> let me re-read your email
<holstein> ive been meaning to reply to that
<holstein> len: awesome
<holstein> i was going to go for http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/xubuntu/daily/current/
<holstein> as soon as i have a minute
<holstein> len: not on anything mission critical of course
<len> How is that the same/different from US?
<holstein> really, just installing that and some studio stuff, and just trying things right now
<holstein> len: we are using XFCE now
<holstein> you can try our dailies... not sure
<holstein> http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/ubuntustudio/daily/current/
<len> So US is some extra pkgs on top? or are there other things
<holstein> there will be other things for sure
<len> I think I will try downloading it and see.
<holstein> but, not too different from xubuntu really
<holstein> its all the same repos anyways
<holstein> its all just buntu :)
<len> Not unity though
<holstein> well, unity is in the repos
<holstein> so, i you install ubuntustudio, and want it, you can have it
<holstein> same for all the derivitives
<holstein> we all use the same repositories
<len> No thanks... it messes to much with other sessions.
<len> I had it and saved my directory and wiped my system to get rid of it
<holstein> hehe
<holstein> im not a fan either
<len> My netbook is now xubutu 11.10
<holstein> im enjoing XFCE
<holstein> ive been in it for about a week now
<holstein> full time
<holstein> on my netbook
<holstein> same as you... 11.10
<holstein> otherwise, i have 10.04 on everything else
<len> I think I have US 11.04 on my desktop
<holstein> len: you using the stock generic kernel?
<len> No, I put in the lowlat.
<holstein> did you try it against the other one?
<holstein> gen vs lowlat?
<len> Not any bench mark just seems less trouble
<holstein> xrun wise?
<holstein> or support for hardware somehow?
<len> I am more a stage player, don't do so much recording so not as much real testing as I would like
<holstein> len: cool
<holstein> what do you play?
<len> crashed less.... may have been the version of ardour/jack I was trying ardour 3
<len> I am playing bass right now, but I fill what is missing. I also play guitar or drums though drums has been a long time.
<len>  Did some Christmas songs (already) over at the hospital with my YF on guitar.
<holstein> cool
 * holstein plays bass
<holstein> upright bass
<len> Can't aford onr :-) Im using fretless right now... ripped out the frets and filled them in.. lowered the nut
<holstein> nice
<holstein> i got a j bass recently and put a warmoth neck on it
<holstein> dont like playing electric bass though
<holstein> i played a gig on it while my bass was in the shop
<holstein> its nice.. but...
<len> This was a (badly ) used squire from rentals... Its my test bass. I have an old pre 76 Rick I use too.
<holstein> nice
<len> I go from chord charts... don't read music fast enough
<holstein> eh... im not the quickest sight-reader either
<len> Ok downloading the latest US now. I'l play on both my cpmuters withit... don't type so well either.
<holstein> len: hehe
<holstein> i think you're doing great :)
<holstein> programming background too eh?
<holstein> thats awesome
<len> Its going to take a while... says about 2 hours... I'll be gone by then
<holstein> gone?
<holstein> from here you mean?
<len> It has been a while since I did much programing
<len>  gone to bed
<holstein> OH
<len> I used to run a BBS before Inet
<holstein> cool
<holstein> i read about that
<holstein> thought about setting one up
<len> I was alone and worked evening. it was one way i had some social life
<len> Programing stand alone stuff is ok.  Redid login to allow setting new users up... grab some info sort of thing. Have done some tcl/tk stuff at work... 
<holstein> well, im glad you made it here
<len> I have not done packaging though
<holstein> i was going to follow up with you on the list and invite you here
<len> Wish I had more time to spend on it, but testing will probably be most of what I can do
<holstein> len: thats great
<holstein> sounds like you have a very appropriate batch of hardware
<len> Glad to help. 
<len> I should get going... bye now
<holstein> len: o/
<scott-work> TheMuso:  didn't you tell me that something funny was going on with the ia32-libs package?
<scott-work> TheMuso: nevermind, i got an answer in -motu and have a link to stevel's email about it (but i'll have to digest it later)
<astraljava> scott-work: When you mentioned the meetingology usage; last night in the xubuntu-devel meeting, knome really showed the proper way to utilize it's properties.
<astraljava> scott-work: The #info command is real efficient in the minutes portion of the log. That way you get a quick glimpse of what the talk was about, without having to browse through the whole file.
<astraljava> That bundled together with #action and #agree will give you everything you need, unless you really wanna see everything that was typed.
<scott-work> astraljava:  is there a good place to learn the commands, the link i found (or you provided, don't remember) wasn't really thorough
<astraljava> scott-work: Maybe there is, but I just copied them to a notes entry, the bot presents them at the start of each meeting.
<astraljava> scott-work: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ScribesTeam/MootBot
<astraljava> Don't know if that's up-to-date, though.
<scott-work> astraljava: thanks!  i put in the last meeting ntoes that i would chair the next meeting
<scott-work> but perhaps if we switch to a euro friendly time then perhaps i may not be able to if i am unable to attend
<holstein> i got a brunch gig :/
<holstein> puts me out of the current time
<holstein> not every sunday though
<holstein> not that we gotta rearrange the meetings for me
<holstein> i can catch up
<astraljava> Yeah, I have no problems chairing whenever I can attend, which should be almost everytime, though.
<astraljava> But do take your turns whenever you feel like it.
<astraljava> Someone's gotta have the experience too.
<holstein> well, it can be a drag for the chair-person
<holstein> i appreciate you covering it for us astraljava :)
<scott-work> astraljava: i think we should defintely each get turns just so we don't fall apart when the normal chair isn't there
<astraljava> I don't mind. And since Scott's presenting most of the issues, it helps to ease his load a bit.
<scott-work> maybe not necessarily switch every time, but we should each get experience
<astraljava> Yeah, agreed.
<scott-work> astraljava: aye!  it really does
<scott-work> ^^^ help to distribute the load
<astraljava> You get a bit of time to type what you have to say on the topic, while someone else is typing the mandatory commands etc.
<astraljava> I need to look into the voting, next.
<astraljava> I see it's quite an efficient way to handle a lot of things, witnessed in the council meetings and such, when they're voting on upload privileges etc.
<knome> scott-work, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<knome> scott-work, *anybody* can use #info, so you don't have to duplicate stuff
<knome> scott-work, our minutes from yesterday are at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Meetings/Archive/Minutes/2011-11-08, if you want to see how that looks (it's slightly modified from the raw output, but i've been talking with AlanBell to push some changes to the bot soon, so we can get a hassle-free copy+paste from the output. i've also filed a bug about the wiki producin margin for list items that have <a>, <em> or <strong>)
<scott-work> oh cool
<scott-work> working with kate steward (the release manager) on the blueprints
<scott-work> here is what i call the ubuntu studio "header" blueprint:  https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/topic-precise-flavor-ubuntu-studio
<scott-work> this allows her to track the progress of our blueprints
<scott-work> if you look on the bottom of _that_ blueprint in the 'dependencies' area you will see our blueprints attached, and you can click them to go to their respetive blueprint pages
<knome> scott-work, is this something the official flavors are required to do?
<knome> scott-work, btw, the LTS cycle length problem is something ubuntu studio and xubuntu have in common
<knome> scott-work, xfce can't really be supported for five years, until you have a large amount of people who are willing to push fixes to xfce after the xfce devs have dropped the support
<scott-work> knome: not sure exactly, but i think the official derivatives are encouraged to do it
<scott-work> knome: oh, and i see what you mean about LTS for this
<knome> yeah, we need to look at those requirements and stuff this week, and maybe decide about it on our next meeting
<scott-work> hmmm, that is something to ponder i suppose
<scott-work> is it possible to upgrade xfce during this time by backporting it?
<knome> you should really have a chat with mr_pouit
<scott-work> is he going to yell at me about backporting it ;)
<knome> he's going to tell what's possible and what not
<knome> we don't believe we can do the 5-year LTS cycle.
<knome> that's mostly because of xfce
<knome> the current cycle is okayish
<scott-work> knome: jono asked me directly about supporting ubuntu studio for five years, i said i thought we could do it
<scott-work> perhaps i was in error
<knome> lol
<knome> that was his IIIVÃL plan
<scott-work> perhaps we should also talk to kate or steve l about this
<knome> you probably can, but xfce is not supported...
<scott-work> what is IIIVOL?
<knome> IIVÃL == EVIL
<scott-work> ahhhhhh...other's probably agree with you on that
<scott-work> :P
<scott-work> gonig to lunch
<knome> bon appeitt
<knome> ugh
<knome> *appetit
<scott-work> oh, knome you might want to talk to kate steward (skaet in irc) about the blueprint stuff
<knome> okay
<scott-work> i imagine charlie knows about it but i have a vivid imagination :P
<knome> hehe
<knome> he probably does, we need to sit down for some time together
<knome> i'm hoping i can push the work of release manager to somebody else :PP
<astraljava> Scott! You did WHAT?!
<knome> astraljava, those americans.
<astraljava> Bloody h*ll.
<knome> i'm sure you can revert that comment
<knome> if you promise to blog how awesome jono is everyday for the next 5 years
<astraljava> Haha!
<scott-work> back
<TheMuso> scott-work: Ah yes, multi-arch.
<scott-work> TheMuso: another question if you don't mind, how could we implement sane defaults for jack settings?
<scott-work> which package do you think we would need to touch for this?
<scott-work> -settings?
<scott-work> the jackd package?
<scott-work> would this be a delta against the debian package?
<astraljava> No, let's not touch that, so we can just sync straight from unstable.
<scott-work> i would prefer not to create a delta uneccessarily, astraljava , but i would like to solicit input from others to make sure we are doing it the 'right' way
<scott-work> not to disrepect you, astraljava 
<astraljava> No worries. That's just my opinion.
<scott-work> although another approach might be to talk to quadrispro and see if they would consider a change as well ;)
<astraljava> That sounds good, sure.
<scott-work> i met quadrispro at uds, i was surprised to do so
<astraljava> Hmm... right. He's active, so I'm not sure whether I was expecting that, but it sure didn't surprise me one bit.
<scott-work> i had no idea he would be there, but then i was very ignorant about many topics pertaining to uds as well
<astraljava> It's a potpourri for sure.
<scott-work> he very passionately told me that we should remove pulse audio because it was adversely impacting jack's latency
<scott-work> i explained that it would exceedingly difficult to manage such a feat
<scott-work> perhaps requiring shifting to a different desktop environment
<astraljava> Yeah, I'm on a fence about that.
<astraljava> I mean,  I don't particularly like it, but I would want a better UX for audio, and it's got potential, so I have no beef with it either.
<scott-work> i think pulse is improving and the integration is improving greatly
<astraljava> Yeah, agreed.
<scott-work> i haven't noticed any particular latency problems myself, i can get quite low latencies still
<scott-work> and i would suggest that perhaps he was not using the latest versions of certain packages
<scott-work> his main complaint was with using ladish
<scott-work> i spoke to falktx about this and falktx seemed quite sure that it isn't such a problem as quadrispro described
<scott-work> however, i'm still unsure what the best practice to get jack settings implemented
<astraljava> Right. It'd be good to get them both in for a chat some time.
<scott-work> i was hoping TheMuso might offer a suggestion
<scott-work> the only other vector i can think of at the moment woudl be to add it to the -default-settings package in the copy file
<scott-work> but i am not a packaging czar ;)
<astraljava> That's what I'm thinking.
<scott-work> astraljava: i would presume that actual setting end up in the /home directory under .jackd or similar
<scott-work> and aren't we to avoid doing funny stuff in the /home directory
<scott-work> or what that be the .qjackctl directory actually
<scott-work> and doesn't qjackctl actually create that directory when first used
<scott-work> wouldn't qjackctl have some standard settings somewhere before it's used?
<astraljava> Doesn't jackd store something in /etc?
<scott-work> i might check this when i get home then
<scott-work> i did a quick search in google and it looks like .jackdrc is creating in the home directory when qjackctl is started
<scott-work> i'll verify this tonight on a separate machine
<scott-work> maybe i should ask in #ardour as i know las hangs our there 
<falktx_> hey there
<knome> oi
<falktx_> nice work on the website
<knome> thanks :)
<falktx_> I'l glad to see US going along for a rock 12.04 release
<falktx_> let's hope things keep moving forwards
<knome> yep
<knome> same with xubuntu
 * falktx_ is preparing the Cadence docs for it's first alpha release
<knome> even we are not expecting many "new" things
<falktx_> so XFCE is the deal, right?
<knome> yeah, that's why it's "X"ubuntu ;)
<falktx_> I mean US
<knome> heh
<falktx_> we're going for XFCE full way
<falktx_> right?
<knome> yeah
<knome> that's a big change for US
<falktx_> do we have a list of things needed for *-controls?
<knome> i've no idea
 * falktx_ is uploading files, so internet is slow
<astraljava> Damn, that's a lot of files.
<knome> yeah. you're slowing down my internet too.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2011-11-09
<ScottL> falktx, what do you envision -controls doing?
<ScottL> falktx__, what do you envision -controls doing?
<ScottL> would this be like cadence and control studio usage?
<falktx__> ScottL: yes
<ScottL> what about helping users set up (or tune) their systems like ailo would like?
<ScottL> i would like it to also control installing and removing work flows as well
<ScottL> or at least assist doing that
<falktx__> ScottL: yes, I plan to do most of that
<ScottL> oh good !
<falktx__> ScottL: I was looking for a list of features to do
<ScottL> that's about all i can think of at this time
<falktx__> adding/removing worksflows seems like a nice option
<ScottL> i think that and the set up are the best for the use case where people want to use a ubuntu install for studio work
<ScottL> makes sure they have the right kernel and are in the audio group (and creates it if necessary)
<falktx__> yep, system checks
<ScottL> knome, when you get back can we talk about website update?  i would like to talk to you and stochastic to clear up a plan of action
<ScottL> falktx__, i talked to some people about how edubuntu and kubuntu website pull information from wiki.ubuntu.com
<ScottL> i think that is the 'iframe' stuff you were talking about
<ScottL> after we get the website implemented we might look into that for adding the user documentation to the website
<falktx__> cool
<stochastic> hey everyone what's the current suggested xfce theme to start building upon
<stochastic> or what are the contenders?
<holstein> stochastic: greybird
<stochastic> holstein, has a particular Ubuntu Studio set been started anywhere?  bzr or anything?
<holstein> stochastic: i dont think so
<holstein> i wanted to go to greybird, and put our old wallpaper in
<holstein> and if we get to more at some point, great! :)
 * stochastic recalls there was a recent e-mail suggesting a darker theme...
<holstein> stochastic: it was more of a fight
<holstein> about whats too dark
<holstein> greybird is darkish, without messing things up
<stochastic> okay
<holstein> stochastic: we have a plymouth theme to put in somewhere too
<stochastic> holstein, where is that?  or do you mean we need to build one too?
<holstein> stochastic: ScottL said we already had one made
<holstein> stochastic: and im not sure where that stuff is
<stochastic> gotcha
<stochastic> holstein, I notice greybird isn't even packaged yet
<stochastic> or am I not seeing it?
<holstein> stochastic: should be... im using it in xubuntu 11.10
<holstein> not sure how things work though
<holstein> madnick might know
<holstein> or knome 
<stochastic> there is a ppa listed on the site
<stochastic> but when I apt-cache search for greybird I get nothin'
<holstein> stochastic: me too
<holstein> so its gotta be some other package
<holstein> default-themes
<holstein> xubuntu-themes
<holstein> something like that maybe?
 * stochastic will look
<micahg> I think it's in murrine-themes
<stochastic> that it is.
<stochastic> perfect.
<knome> stochastic, greybird is in murrine-themes
<knome> right, somebody answered that already :)
<knome> for the darker version: https://github.com/shimmerproject/Blackbird (very WIP)
<knome> it's been worked on by ochosi and DAZ1 now
<knome> ScottL, sure, go ahead
<ScottL> knome, stochastic: i wanted to make sure progress continues on the ubuntustudio website
<ScottL> stochastic, are you still waiting for me to review the rest of the website?
<ScottL> stochastic, the changes that i suggest in the blueprint spec, can you do those or do you need knome 's input?
<ScottL> look at "website content", first image:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/update-website-spec
<ScottL>  
<ScottL> stochastic, what are you concerns about social media on the website?  don't think we need any at all?  want to only support open ones (i.e. not twitter, etc)?
<ScottL>  
<ScottL> as far as the changes i suggested, i'm not sure i can some/most/any/all of them but i also didn't want to move unilaterally and wanted some feedback at least from you two, stochastic, knome 
<ScottL> "note sure i can MAKE some/most/any/all"
<ScottL> basically i'm pretty sure it would take me a while to make significant changes to make changes to borders or padding or whatever required for minimizing vertical height
<ScottL> and at this point i am unsure that i know how to add a "Blog" menu item on the front page and then make the additional page for it :P
<ScottL> i'm sure i could figure it out but probably either of you could do it much, much faster ;)
<knome> blog menu item in the tabs, or just in the top navigation?
<ScottL> knome, i was going for something like the first image under "website content" section:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/update-website-spec
<ScottL> sorry, trying to get kids ready for school/daycare right now as well
<ScottL> knome, to be more explicit, i don't want to make all these changes at this time, i was hoping for feedback, if none is coming then i suppose we will move forward then
<ScottL> i think stochastic was going to email the list with his concerns over social media on the website
<len_> Re: social media - I personally find it annoying.
<len_> I don't use it. 
<astraljava> FB was annoying, G+ works okay-ish.
<holstein> len_: morning!
<holstein> astraljava, len_, stochastic, ScottL
<holstein> i agree with jussi that it should be opt in
<holstein> i dont think that is optional
<holstein> i think it should be something that the 'purist' can easily ignore/tolerate
<holstein> i also dont think it would be out of place to have a note "why is an open project using closed avenues like FB and G+?... to reach and recruit users in the mainstream"
<holstein> i can go either way on it really because i can see and appreciate both arguments
<holstein> i know i have actually seen and reponded to some questions on twitter
<len_> Is there an overhead to maintain/generate the extra content?
<holstein> len_: resource-wise?
<len_> People wise
<holstein> i mean, i think we can handle making the embeddables or whatever
<holstein> i think it depends on just what all in entails
<holstein> len_: thanks for actually testing that iso and reporting in such detail
<len_> Does every website update eqire something sent  or added ?
<holstein> i would give it a week or so at least before trying again
<len_> No peroblem
<holstein> len_: theres an email i get that talks about what is broken
<len_> There are dialy reports but the site still shows the no7 build
<holstein> let me see if i can figure out how to get you that
<holstein> len_: it might not build if there are errors?
<len_> I get the daily build repot
<holstein> im still not 100% on how it all works
<holstein> len_: OK... cool :)
<holstein> the watson report... i read it like the NYtimes ;)
<holstein> len_: you mean, will every site update be this intense?
<holstein> depends on what we are doing i think
<len_> Hmm I am thinking I can ty changing the options to install everything even with erors to see what else is wong. the daily build report did not mention the ubuntu 1 thing
<holstein> AFAIK simple content edting will be easy
<jussi> holstein: which cms are you using(if at all) ?
<len_> CMS?
<jussi> Most CMS's have twitter and other feed plugins
<jussi> len_: content management system - aka drupal, joomla et al
<holstein> jussi: we're doing to have drupal?
<holstein> pretty sure its drupal
<jussi> holstein: Ive no idea, Im asking? 
<len_> Not, I do hand coding of my html
<holstein> knome: thats correct?
<len_> oops, sorry for interupting, Just realized I was answering questions dirrected at someone else. Not used tom this yet.
<knome> it's wordpress
<knome> and yeah, there is plugins for twitter for wordpress
<knome> ..but all those need to go through canonical IS review :P
<scott-work> good morning (again)
<madnick> morning :)
<holstein> i just knew it wasnt joomla ;)
<scott-work> holstein: what wasn't joomla?
<scott-work> oh and holstein, do you have time to line a few things out for the blueprints with me today?  this morning or afternoon?
<scott-work> question for anyone who would like to answer (and i really would like feedback on this)
<scott-work> i've been thinking long term about goals for ubuntu studio
<scott-work> i will be extremely happy to share my thoughts on this with this group later when i have it firmed up and in a presentable form, however...
<scott-work> do you think it will be beneificial to share this also with the community at large?
<astraljava> But of course. Transparency will be welcomed, even though it will generate a lot of debate. But in the end, being open will be welcomed.
<astraljava> That came out really bad, but I hope you get the picture.
<knome> astraljava, try to behave the next time scott asks you something
<astraljava> knome: I think he knows better not to ask me anything anymore.
<astraljava> But I keep responding. I'm like that.
<knome> :(
<astraljava> Did I forget the smileys? Silly me.
<scott-work> lols
<scott-work> well, i suspect i really had a different question in my mind than the one i really asked
<scott-work> astraljava: i welcome your comments, there are insightful and extremely useful :)
<astraljava> I doubt it, but hey, who's counting.
<scott-work> i suspect what i really meant to ask would be, "would it increase confidence in the distribution and encourage involvement if we present a comprehensive road map with staged goals and required task per goal?"
<scott-work> i stress the "encourage involvement" part
<scott-work> and perhaps "staged" would be more explantory as "scheduled"
<astraljava> Again, I would say absolutely. We discussed about this with jussi the other day. People are much more likely to take on a task that's specified, than coming around and being pointed at the repository or, say, the wiki, and asked to "be helpful".
<jussi> ++
<astraljava> Naturally there needs to be the people with the initiative, but most of the contributors don't have the vision.
<scott-work> jussi: why did you type "++"?
<scott-work> i've seen this before from someone else and wondered about this
<falktx__> ++
<jussi> scott-work: means I agreed with the last comment
<jussi> like $comment - plus plus to that.
<scott-work> astraljava:  "more likely to take on a task that's specified"  that's why i did this page:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/ContributeToDevelopment
<scott-work> i'm going to finish another page first then i'll post to the list about it
<astraljava> Sounds good.
<scott-work> jussi: i've only seen it as "+1" so far
<astraljava> scott-work: That's like +1, but a traditional coding convention.
<scott-work> oh, this is a python thing, isn't it?  ++ to add one
<astraljava> Works in C/C++ and probably in lots of others as well.
<astraljava> Java, perl etc.
<scott-work> having done the blueprints for this cycle ties into my nature to organize and plan and i've been inspired to collate my generalized and random thoughts for improving ubuntu studio
<scott-work> i believe a natural delineation between tasks exists and i want to further this concept into a more structured plan
<scott-work> what i would like to find at some point is a way to graphically convey this information as well, although i would rather not resolve to a static chart made in inkscape
<scott-work> it would be nice if there was an online tool to do this
<scott-work> i should note that i am speaking about using something other than launchpad as it doesn't seem to have the graphical conceptual presentation that i would like
<astraljava> Hmm... I dunno, have to think about that. I'm sure some exist, but probably most of them aren't free.
<scott-work> dont worry about it right now astraljava, i've got some more thinking to do ;)
<astraljava> Sure.
<holstein> scott-work: hey!
<holstein> i was trying to tell jussi what CMS the site was on earlier... thats what the joomla comment was about
<scott-work> oh crap, i don't remember what i pinged you about :P
<holstein> i had forgotten it was wordpress
<holstein> anyways...
<holstein> scott-work: im eating dinner, but i can look at some things
<scott-work> oh, yeah, reading backscroll it seems it was about the blueprint stuff
<holstein> and im home in a bit for probably a few hours before rehearsal
<scott-work> eat dinner, i'll catch you in a few holstein 
<astraljava> Dinner? Isn't it late lunch-time for you?
<scott-work> holstein: when you get back look at : https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntustudio/+spec/other-p-ubuntustudio-misc-improvements
<scott-work> i would like you to lead the multi-head tasks please
<scott-work> i'll be happy to help with documenting it since i know you generally do not like wiki stuff
<holstein> cool
<scott-work> but i also wanted to discuss use cases with you about multi-head
<holstein> right now, im thinking arandr and the included tool
<holstein> theres not really one thing to do both mirroring and cloneing
<scott-work> so, let's say currently we can think of two use cases 1) spanning the desktop across multiple monitors and 2) cloning for use with a projector
<holstein> arandr looks really nice too
<holstein> simple, clean
<scott-work> i wouldn't think #2 would be a very common use case for us, but i do think that #1 is
<scott-work> and you are suggesting we use arandr for #1?
<holstein> and, this would be easy for us too
<holstein> just add arandr and we're done
<holstein> make some documentation
<holstein> scott-work: right
<scott-work> cool :)  has this been testing with ait and radeon cards?
<scott-work> err, ati
<holstein> scott-work: nah
<astraljava> scott-work: With laptops getting more powerful all the time, I could see someone using Studio on one that is sometimes connected to a projector at times.
<holstein> nvidia is going to be the hassle i think
<holstein> i can test ati easy enough
<astraljava> Then again, I always like to use separate desktops in those cases as well.
<holstein> for me, i dont mind the spanning on the projector as well
<holstein> thats my preffered way of connecting
<scott-work> astraljava: i was thinking that too but i wonder if we should start simple
<holstein> but, i think we should support both since we can
<astraljava> ++
<holstein> all of this stuff comes down to hardware though at some point
<scott-work> holstein:  is the setup automatic for you? or did you have to go to the menu and start 'arandr'?
<holstein> i mean, if an ati card or nvidia is not supported, theres nothing we can add to fix that
<holstein> scott-work: i started it
<scott-work> i think i used the ati or radeon driver to do mine actually
<astraljava> I have to use xrandr, forgot to test arandr, sorry.
<holstein> astraljava: no worries
<scott-work> holstein: "ati or radeon card not supported" but we shoudl test this and document it for the users so they don't bang their heads trying to get it to work though
<holstein> i dont have my nvidia hardware moved yet
<holstein> and i have to install xubuntu on the ati hardware i have
<holstein> scott-work: yeah... its challening
<holstein> gets into why is it not supported?
<holstein> i mean, it works
<holstein> everything on our end works
<scott-work> i wonder if having a card with digital and analog vs two digitial outputs generates different results as well
<holstein> scott-work: i know some folks locally with hdmi, but i think thats even more scarry depending on driver support
<scott-work> ooh, yeah, i don't want to get into that right now ;)
<scott-work> astraljava: do you have an radeon card?
<holstein> we could just have a general statement about non-supported hardware, and who's 'fault' that is
<scott-work> i wonder if falktx has one?
<scott-work> holstein: absolutely
<holstein> we could link to those support addresses for nvidia
<holstein> maybe get some acutal feedback where it should be going
<holstein> that can be down the road
<holstein> im just saying... we cant test every case.. as long as the overall process is sound
<astraljava> scott-work: I do, if I get the laptop to switch to it. It now goes to use the integrated intel GPU by default.
<holstein> and we are doing all we can to provide support...
<astraljava> scott-work: I also have nVidia on the desktop.
<scott-work> holstein: well, i suppose where i am going with this is...
<scott-work> can you please lead this while doing a good cross section of testing so we know what to expect
<scott-work> i'll be happy to test any specific test cases you would like, i can check which hardware i have available
<scott-work> and if you can summarize what packages we should use, the testing results, and how to set it up i will be happy to document it all in the wiki
<holstein> scott-work: sure
<holstein> i think next week i can suggest a plan
<holstein> right now im leaning towards the included too, and arandr
<scott-work> i have a lot of other tasks falling on me (live dvd, ubiquity patch, website stuff, probably theme as well) so this is something i would really like someone else to direct
<holstein> and labeling arandr well in the menu
<scott-work> good :)
<holstein> i still say for the theme..
<holstein> right now, put that login theme, and our old wallpaper in
<astraljava> scott-work: We can discuss in the meeting about sharing your load a bit, I still haven't looked at them at all, assigning-wise.
<holstein> and just greybird or whatever
<holstein> and be done for now
<holstein> if we get to more, great
<holstein> if not, that'll do
<scott-work> holstein:  there is more to it than that, we need to integrate those things into our bzr branche and packages
<scott-work> and there isn't necessarily a 1:1 match
<holstein> great
<scott-work> so it's not necessarily a drop in replacement
<scott-work> i'm not saying there isn't, but no one has looked yet
<scott-work> (i don't think)
<holstein> can we just take what xubuntu has? and drop the panel and add our wallpapre?
<holstein> drop the bottom panel*
<scott-work> i think that is an agreed approach, at least in some small circles
<scott-work> although i'm not sure we should drop the bottom panel, is it?
<holstein> depends
<holstein> whatever is easy
<holstein> its not right for us as-is
<holstein> and we've never had one
<holstein> so, i was thinking it would be easy to just drop it at first, and if we get to workflows down there, thats gravvy!
<holstein> wavvy gravvy
<scott-work> i've been thinking about priorities and my involvement
<scott-work> i was really, really thinking of completing some misc. documentation and my involvement in the website by end of next week to focus on the theming
<scott-work> alpha 1 is dec 1st, i was hoping to have the theming done before that
<scott-work> we are waiting on the kernel crew for the -lowlatency bit (i plan to poke them shortly after alpha 1)
<scott-work> and we can slot the livedvd and ubiquity patch for before alpha 2 then
<scott-work> i was secretly hoping falktx would do the bulk of the work on the theming issues (theme, ui, icons, lightdm) because he is alreay pretty knowledgeable about them
<scott-work> but i don't know that he will be available before alpha 1
<scott-work> ochosi has volunteered to help with the transition from the xubuntu-devel team
<astraljava> scott-work: I need to pick up the slack and get done with the testing documentation I didn't do last cycle, but I can add some other tasks as well.
<scott-work> astraljava: which testing documentation was that?  i'm doing some stuff already
<holstein> yeah... i like that time frame on the theme
<astraljava> scott-work: The stuff we talked about copying from Xubuntu. Dailies, milestones etc.
<scott-work> my overarching goal was to develop an infrastructure of docuement to transition people into helping us with testing
<scott-work> all in an effort to reduce our work load throughout the cycle
<astraljava> Yep, that's what I'm talking about as well.
<scott-work> a persistant place that acts as a repository of knowledge so that when people leave, others can easily come in and assist as well
<scott-work> astraljava: okay then, tomorrow i will have a broad outline to you about my thoughts on it then and we can collaborate and get it done twice as fast ;)
<astraljava> scott-work: Sounds like a plan.
<scott-work> i was parsing some of the documentation efforts that i would like to accomplish so that this cycle we were addressing documentation that might benefit our development
<scott-work> astraljava: can you think of any other documentation that might reduce our work load or benefit us in any other ways?
<scott-work> i dont' really want to touch user documentation for this cycle, perhaps start it later in the cycle if our scheduled tasks are done
<astraljava> scott-work: I'll look up the dailies spreadsheet we used for Xubuntu last cycle.
<astraljava> You should have mail.
<scott-work> astraljava: what does the red cells mean in that spreadsheet?
<astraljava> scott-work: They were used to indicate which tests Charlie wanted us to concentrate on that day.
<scott-work> ah, okay
<astraljava> So we didn't have to stress about doing them all each and every day.
<scott-work> that certainly makes sense
<scott-work> i'm surprised at the robustness to test the dailies everyday
<scott-work> i'm not sure we can provide that level of testing
<astraljava> We don't have to, at least outside of milestones approaching.
<astraljava> But we can use that as an example.
<scott-work> astraljava:  do have you a minute to discuss the purpose of the wiki page(s) for ubuntu studio testing?
<scott-work> i suppose this defines the scope and maybe the philosophy of what you and i want to accomplish
<astraljava> Sure.
<scott-work> astraljava: do you have a brief minutes to discuss our goal for the ubuntu studio testing wiki page(s)?
<scott-work> this would be an almost philosophical discussion i suppose
<astraljava> Yep, I'm free now.
<scott-work> good
<scott-work> here's my thoughts
<scott-work> i don't know that we need to expansively define what testing is or all the testing that _could_ be done
<scott-work> my thoughts have been that we should frame this as getting people to help us with important testing, not all testing
<scott-work> i.e. the qa iso testing
<scott-work> be very specific to minimize our time spent on the documentation that will hopefully generate the most return
<scott-work> also, to just get it done :)
<scott-work> that's about it as far as purpose or philosophy at this point
<scott-work> astraljava: what did you envision?
<astraljava> Well, there's a lot of docs out there about what testing is about. We'd probably just wanna specify the things important for our derivative specifically.
<astraljava> I agree that just a few of us can do dailies or on-demand testing when we know something has just changed, that's probably affecting us.
<astraljava> But get more people involved with ISO testing when milestones are approaching.
<scott-work> astraljava: also considering that we would be asking people unfamiliar with some aspects of ubuntu studio, we should not ask them to do dailies IMO
<astraljava> Yeah, that's too heavy a burden, and quite frankly, not that interesting.
<scott-work> we should try to focus their efforts to the milestone testing
<scott-work> yeah, they get to test and go to a soon to be updated website to log their results :)
<astraljava> I just got a spare HD for dailies, so I can take a lot of that on me.
<scott-work> so do you feel okay with the immediate wiki page to focus on people not currently involved helping with qa testing?
<astraljava> I'm not that keen on virt, even though I acknowledge the speed advantage they give us.
<astraljava> Yep, seems to me we're on the same page here.
<scott-work> good
<scott-work> :)
<scott-work> i wouldn't mind other documentation and threading this one so it would fit within a larger structure
<scott-work> "other documentation" = other testing documentation
<scott-work> but i am unsure how that would affect this particular documentation for new users doing qa testing
<scott-work> most likely the audience would remain the same even if we had other documentation for testing i suppose
<astraljava> Yeah. And I don't think we need to re-invent the wheel there. We can point to already existing ones, and encourage people to ask if they find something puzzling or whatever.
<scott-work> oh yeah, i definitely agree
<scott-work> but i did kinda want to do some very low level explanation as well
<astraljava> Just get the certain Studio-specific cases there, that are important for our work flows.
<scott-work> stuff like...
<scott-work> * purpose of qa testing
<scott-work> * contrast against dailies
<scott-work> * links to qa website and daily images
<scott-work> * methods of testing (i.e. vm or iron)
<scott-work> there are other things, but i think most of these can be one sentence descriptions
<scott-work> but i defintely want to link to other pieces of information for the testers
<astraljava> I don't think we should even confuse anyone doing QA ISO testing with the daily concept at all. Maybe explain the difference elsewhere, if needed.
<scott-work> oh, oh, oh...maybe we can tie this in with stochastic 's -testers team
<scott-work> astraljava: hmmmmm, that is a good point
<astraljava> Yeah, that sounds wiser.
<scott-work> i know that i found the two confusing and didn't understand their purposes and wanted to contrast them in a very topical manner
<scott-work> but if we are considering having complimentary documentation then i agree that we don't need to mention it here and it would confuse things
<astraljava> I agree it's important to make the distinction, but to the people who we only point to the QA ISO testing pages, they shouldn't need to know about it, until (and only if) they become interested about further contributing.
<scott-work> agreed
<scott-work> or...
<scott-work> ++
<scott-work> ;)
<scott-work> okay, getting ready to go home, talk to you later :-)
<astraljava> Alrighty.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2011-11-10
<ScottL> we are now showing up on status.ubuntu.com: http://status.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-precise/
<ScottL> this is a great page as well, it breaks down per blueprint and even by person: http://status.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-precise/group/topic-precise-flavor-ubuntu-studio.html
<scott-upstairs> knome, i hope you are feeling better today :)
<knome> a bit
<knome> but i must get out of the apartment today
<knome> (order from wife)
<astraljava> I did mention a certain flight company, but I'm not sure that's what the wife actually meant.
<knome> that would work for her.
<astraljava> Oh you're thinking of sending her here? Yeah, I'll take that as well.
<knome> lol
<knome> i meant her sending me there
<astraljava> OH! Oh okay. Yeah, man. Whatever works for you. *damnit* </whisper>
<knome> haha
<knome> i can ask her if she'd like a trip to oulu though :P
<knome> the problem is, she has a morning-shift tomorrow
<scott-upstairs> astraljava, here is a first pass, note that i didn't finish the last section: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/TestingQA-ISOImages
<scott-upstairs> it isn't perfect and i would like to revisit the structure to make it flow a little smoother
<scott-upstairs> but i have to stop this and get the kids up and ready and finish start getting ready myself, ciao
<astraljava> ScottL: Alright, I'll have a look at home in the evening.
<scott-work> astraljava: did you have a chance to look at my first pass of the qa testing wiki page?
<scott-work> knome: when you get a few minutes can you and i talk about the ubuntustudio website?
<astraljava> scott-work: Not yet. I'm still at work. I'll let you know when I have read it and have some comments.
<scott-work> okay, cool, thanks astraljava 
<scott-work> i think this page is bloody brilliant!  http://status.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-precise/group/topic-precise-flavor-ubuntu-studio.html
<scott-work> i like that it shows our goals, tracks progress, and shows distributed responsibilities
<scott-work> it's so freaking easy to understand our current status
#ubuntustudio-devel 2011-11-11
<l33_> hi
<astraljava> Howdy.
<l33_> hey ;)
<l33_> ;)
#ubuntustudio-devel 2011-11-12
<Valentin2> can anybody tell me where the gtk (theme) file for gimp is located?
<astraljava> Hi. Sorry, I wouldn't know much about gimp at all. If it's not following the global gtkrc, I am totally stumped. Have you tried #gimp, yet?
<Valentin2> yes
<Valentin2> already tried it in #gimp
<Valentin2> till now i figured out that the problem is gimp uses gtk2, but gnome shell uses gtk3
<Valentin2> now i need to figure out how to change themes for all gtk2 based programms in gnome shell
 * falktx doesn't like gtk3 and his "hidden features"
<Valentin2> me2
<Valentin2> its really annoying
<falktx> gimp gtk3 won't come until gimp 3.x, so...
<Valentin2> omg
<Valentin2> ok 
<falktx> the new one (single-mode window) is not even ready
<falktx> and that will be gtk2
<Valentin2> so its even more necessary to figure out how to change gtk2 themes in gnome shell
<falktx> yep
<Valentin2> i know
<falktx> I'm happy I changed to xfce
<falktx> kde is getting bloated
<Valentin2> im waiting for gimp 2.8 
<falktx> Valentin2: me2
<falktx> ;)
<Valentin2> i never liked kde
<l33_> good morning
<l33_> bye
#ubuntustudio-devel 2011-11-13
<astraljava> Informal meeting in about an hour.
<ScottL> hehe, you beat me astraljava :)
<astraljava> I'm so sorry, are you badly hurt?
<ScottL> LOL
<ScottL> jussi01, is there any way to get  cjwatson@nusakan.canonical.com added to the mailing list without asking colin to do it
<ScottL> asking colin to confirm his new email for the build errors
<ScottL> they changed to a new build server
<astraljava> What benefits will that give us?
<ScottL> so i don't have to keep approving his messages
<astraljava> I meant the new server.
<ScottL> faster build times for the images
<astraljava> Good, good.
<ScottL> he's quite proud of the improvement i believe :)
<astraljava> Good to hear. Should compliment him for his efforts.
<craigs63> is the meeting on this channel, in 15 min or so?
<ScottL> aye craigs63 
<craigs63> thx
<ScottL> i believe this is the relevant page for the meeting: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/Workflows
<ScottL> stochastic, holstein , ailo: ping for meeting
 * ScottL is worried that not many people will show up for meeting despite assertions of attendance
<astraljava> Looks a bit that way.
<JonReagan> did we have others say they were going to be here?
<astraljava> But, let's give it a bit of time, we're informal, anyway, so no strict schedule.
<JonReagan> sounds good
<ScottL> JonReagan, do you have particularly strong opinions about the task derived work flows?
 * ScottL is sorry to put you on the spot ;)
<ScottL> just trying to feel people's opinions out
<JonReagan> haha well I wouldn't say that I have particularly strong opinions
<ScottL> my general feeling is that we should replicate current functionality with a few extremely selective additions
<ScottL> JonReagan, okay, any particular non-strong opinions ;)
<ScottL> or how about this...
<ScottL> JonReagan, what would you like included?
<JonReagan> I will say that I like the example workflows up on the wiki, particularly the focus on photography, which is one I would definitely like to see included
<JonReagan> but that could just be because I like photography  ;)
<craigs63> One thing I see on XFCE I don't like, the menus no longer have a "tooltip" (whatever it's called) - i.e. a little box that tells what each program does ("CD player", "bitmap paint", etc).
<falktx> meeting right now?
<JonReagan> I feel that if we are a multimedia-focused distro, then the major art forms (photography, music, video) should have their own workflows
<ScottL> falktx, aye!
<falktx> there is a chance Gnome will drop fallback mode
<ScottL> JonReagan, i agree with the photography inclusion, shnatsel has given thought to this, and i would like this to be one of the ones we include this cycle
<JonReagan> awesome!
<ScottL> falktx, hmmm, then that makes our decision to move to xfce more fortuitous
<ScottL> craigs63, that is interesting, i would like us to investigate this
<falktx> the main "issue" was that Gnome3 only worked in hw-accererated mode, but now it has gallium support or whatever, so 3.2 won't need 3d drivers anymore
<falktx> let me search it
<falktx> http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=MTAxMjI
<ScottL> falktx, did you see craigs63 's comment about missing "tooltip" for menu items?
<ScottL> falktx, craigs63> One thing I see on XFCE I don't like, the menus no longer have a "tooltip" (whatever it's called) - i.e. a little box that tells what each program does ("CD player", "bitmap paint", etc).
<ScottL> do you have any insight on this?
<ScottL> if not that is okay, we can research it later
<JonReagan> is a move to XFCE under consideration for the next release?
<ScottL> JonReagan, we have already started the transition
<JonReagan> ah, cool
<ScottL> last release is using xfce but we didn't complete the theming, menu, settings, etc
<ScottL> it looked kinda ugly but did function
<falktx> ScottL: no idea about tooltips
<falktx> btw, red hat dev say about gnome3:
<ScottL> falktx, okay, i'll add that to my list for things to work on
<falktx> "But based on what they've said in the past, I expect that once most hardware that previously needed the fallback mode is covered, fallback mode will die."
<falktx> ScottL: is it really needed?
<ScottL> falktx, craigs63 was asking about it, so i imagine if finds it helpful others will too
<falktx> ScottL: craigs63: what do you think of this -> http://kxstudio.sourceforge.net/screenshots/klaudia.png ?
<len> Only gort two minutes... just a quick idea maybe not for this cycle. Has anyone thought of a musicpad workflow for net/notebooks?
<JonReagan> musicpad?
<ScottL> len, what is musicpad?
<ScottL> scoring?
<craigs63> faltx: looks nice
<stochastic> hey all sorry I'm late
<ScottL> or like lilypad where you write the notes on a staff for midi?
<len> For doing music "scribbling" on the road. Something that con rec ord.. maybe a notation thing.. just thought of it not really thpougght out.
<ScottL> falktx, you might explain to craigs63 what klaudia can do
<falktx> craigs63: basically it just lists the software available and it's features
<craigs63> klaudia needs a tooltip!
<falktx> craigs63: more complete than generic menus
<ScottL> len, definitely think though it, especially think through what the purpose is (what the use will accomplish) then work downwards through work flow and tool chain
<ScottL> len, but i would certainly like to hear more about it
<ScottL> stochastic, hi, we haven't really started yet, just gabbering
<stochastic> gotcha
<len> Anyway, I'll try fresh it out in the list, but I have to play in an hour.
 * stochastic reads backscroll a bit anyway
<falktx> ScottL: this is one app that is ready, and has no special dependencies. maybe later we can create a package for it?
<craigs63> The other day I was just trying to play a CD on my laptop, I thought it was annoying to have to google the names that are listed on my 'multimedia' menu...
<ScottL> stochastic, i think the only real comment for work flows was support for the 'photography' work flow (especially since shnatsel, who did the workflow, also got darkroom into debian and then ubuntu)
<ScottL> falktx, that is certainly a possibility :)
<JonReagan> craigs63: that would be annoying!
<ScottL> craigs63, we will be tightening up the menu this cycle (along with other xfce things) and we will look into the tooltips
<len> gotta run bye...
<stochastic> ScottL, who all is here to talk workflows?
<JonReagan> Well, I hate to say this, but I gotta run too, time to meet some family for lunch.
<ScottL> i would say that astraljava , craigs63 , falktx , me, JonReagan 
<ScottL> oh well, scratch JonReagan from that list ;)
<ScottL> bye JonReagan 
<stochastic> JonReagan, what's your take on workflows before you go?
<stochastic> any quick ideas or concepts?
<JonReagan> I'm looking forward to having them. ;)  Definitely in support of the photography workowkkdkflow would you mind sending me an email after the meeting is over and just let me know what I can do?   I'll check the meeting logs, but I'm definitely up for helping develop a toolchain for a workflow
<JonReagan> wow, sorry, last message got a little garbled... using empathy and it froze
<stochastic> okay sounds good
<ScottL> JonReagan, you should probably review the work flows for your interest
<ScottL> if you see a different way to do something, add that to the wiki page
<astraljava> JonReagan: Meeting won't be specially logged, you need to comb the channel logs over.
<ScottL> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/Workflows
<falktx> ScottL: I have 2 workflows of my own that are not possible because of missing packages
<falktx> openoctave and linuxsampler are missing from debian
<ScottL> falktx, can you work towards getting them into debian
<falktx> so as non-daw and non-mixer
<JonReagan> thanks Scott, I'll take a look through there and see if I find something.  I guess before I start which workflows are those 2? ;)  Don't want to waste time on something we know is already impossible
<ScottL> that's what shnatsel did for the photogrphay work flow
<ScottL> oh, linuxsampler is probably a no go
<falktx> ScottL: not sure, my debian skills are not the best, and I want to move to arch soon
<falktx> ScottL: why not linuxsampler??
<ScottL> quadrispro can help too falktx , get it packaged and then submit to the debian multimedia team mailing list
<stochastic> okay so let's set some targets for this discussion, i.e. we want roughly four workflows from each of the major categories?
<ScottL> isn't linuxsampler the one with the restrictive license (i.e. can't make money) 
<ScottL> stochastic, what do you consider the major categories?
<ScottL> audio, video, graphics?
<stochastic> yup
<ScottL> okay :)
<JonReagan> +1 for what stochastic said.  Alright everyone, have a good meeting!
<stochastic> is four a solid target number?
<falktx> ScottL: it has a restriction about putting linuxsampler on hardware boxes, nothing else
<stochastic> we can go over on some, under on others
<ScottL> it is at least a good base number
<ScottL> start with audio then?
<stochastic> sure
<stochastic> before we begin
<stochastic> I do want to mention that some of the workflow design is to pair down the number of apps in our packages
<astraljava> What does pairing down mean?
<stochastic> and there are general tools in the packages that no workflow mentions
<stochastic> reduce
<astraljava> Ok.
<craigs63> pare   :-)
<stochastic> I'd hate to see those general tools disappear because 
<stochastic> oops, spelling gaff
<ScottL> can you list some of those general tools?
<falktx> audacity!
<stochastic> ones that come to mind are gcolor (I think is the name, a color picker for the screen), ladish might fall into that category
<falktx> most generic audio tool ever
<stochastic> anyway, maybe I'm just too worried about neat helper tools being taken away from new users
<stochastic> let's start paring down to the golden workflows
<falktx> mastering should be first, right?
<ScottL> stochastic, we can always confer later and reevaluate if we feel something is missing
<falktx> Ardour and LV2 plugins
<stochastic> sounds good
<ScottL> falktx, have you looked through the workflow wiki page?  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/Workflows
<ScottL> stochastic, i'd say that we should focus on at least two work flows for audio:  recoding live instruments, and recording synths, sequencers,midi
<falktx> oops, sorry I will look again
<ScottL> i shouldn't say "focus on"
<craigs63> Is # 7. Miscellaneous:  meant to cover things like "send an email", "browse the web", "play a CD", etc. ?
<ScottL> i really should say that i would suggest those two at least
<stochastic> ScottL, by synths, seqencers, midi are you considering them all to be software based, not hardware?
<ScottL> stochastic, i suppose it doesn't have too, but i'm not a midi guy really, kinda out of my expertise
<stochastic> craigs63, I'm pretty sure the Desktop tools will remain
<falktx> hm, Ardour is used pretty much in all workflows, but not in recording?
<ScottL> stochastic,  will it involved additional packages to support hardware as well?
<craigs63> stochastic, yes I assume they will stay on the disc, but will the workflow doc explain what they do?
<ScottL> falktx, recording what?  it is used to in recording live instruments and midi stuff
<stochastic> craigs63, ahh, good point
<ScottL> should it?
<ScottL> do we need a work flow for email?
<falktx> ScottL: 'Simple recording of concert, conversation etc'
<stochastic> at least link to the generic ubuntu docs on that stuff
<craigs63> Yeah, I don't know if this web page assumes we all know Ubuntu programs
<ScottL> falktx, ah, i didn't put that in there, someone else did to support audacity (i think)
<falktx> but I guess Ardour is a bit too complicated for a simple task like this
<astraljava> I think this is purely multimedia related, no?
<astraljava> We don't have to duplicate what desktop distro already does.
<ScottL> astraljava, i had intended the work flows to focus on multimedia tasks, yes
<ScottL> generally the mainstream desktop uses don't really need a "work flow" because it's a single app
<astraljava> True enough.
<ScottL> does anyone have any suggestions for "work flows" for audio?
<ScottL> i've suggested 'recording live instruments' and 'recording midi, synths'
<stochastic> so under audio on the workflows page we have five major sections
<stochastic> let's look at each one really briefly and talk
<ScottL> and by suggestions i mean "work flows that we should include for the next release"
<ScottL> stochastic, that sounds good, i have limited time and i would like this meeting to make more progress
 * ScottL realizes that sounds mean and it wasn't intended directly at stochastic 
<stochastic> ScottL, I think audio is the big one so lets power through that
<ScottL> aye
<stochastic> in the recording section I see a great deal of overlap in the workflows
<ScottL> keep in mind these work flows are not perfect and we are not beholded to them
<stochastic> in general I think those who record audio would want plugins to tweak it
<ScottL> definitely
<stochastic> and mastering of that audio in the end would be a natural progression
<ScottL> i think plugins shouldn't be a choice anymore, if you select any audio work flows they should be included with them
<astraljava> +1
<ScottL> stochastic, so probably some of these work flows can actually be combined (i.e. record audio -> mix and master = record, mix, master audio)
<falktx> plugins don't take too much space and are always useful
<ScottL> agreed falktx 
<falktx> I think we should put there as many plug as possible
<stochastic> then I'm in support of all the subsections of the "Recording and Editing" being combined into one package, maybe documentation can be segmented
<falktx> (those that work well)
<stochastic> the only oddity is Hydrogen appearing in the recording and editing section
<ScottL> stochastic, do you want to segregate the midi stuff from the recording real instuments?
<stochastic> yes, to start
<ScottL> +1
<ScottL> can you explain the hydrogen oddity a little, stochastic ?
<stochastic> well it's a program that generates audio
<stochastic> everything else in there is intended to adjust an audio signal
<ScottL> very true
<ScottL> but it does support the 'bedroom' musician who doesn't have drums but practically everything else
<ScottL> but i'm not stuck on it being there
<stochastic> yes, some users want a drum track to back their acoustic accordion playing, but they might also want a bass track
<ScottL> true
<ScottL> hmmmm
<stochastic> where's the line to be drawn between the recording and the synthesis
<ScottL> and ardour will eventually have midi capability
<ScottL> stochastic, i was doing that on the basis of the capabilities of the person making the music
<falktx> ScottL: don't count on ardour3 being released so soon
<ScottL> i think they typically play instruments (guitars, bass, maybe some keyboards) or they don't play anything
<falktx> oh, I just remembered something
<ScottL> falktx, i know, but it will at some point
<falktx> http://www.linuxdsp.co.uk/download/beta/linuxdsp_ardour/index.html
<falktx> ^Ardour2 "fork" with a bit more features
<falktx> could be a plus for US
<ScottL> but let's not get hung up on hydrogen, we can eliminate it from the 'record live' and evaluate it later if need be
<stochastic> sounds good
<ScottL> okay, so...
<stochastic> p.s. Live should be a word we use to describe performing live, let's call it record audio
<ScottL> #1 combine recording edit for recording audio
<ScottL> #2 separate work flow for synths, sequencers, midi
<ScottL> #3 remove hydrogen drums from #1
<stochastic> Hydrogen appears in #2 anyway
<ScottL> do we want to support any other audio work flows for this cycle?
<ScottL> DJ stuff?
<ScottL> scoring/composing?
<astraljava> dholbach could like that.
<stochastic> I would like too
<astraljava> And I would like the latter.
<falktx> does US currently has any app for playing midi files?
<ScottL> are the work flows adequate for your interests?
<stochastic> I think it's of minimal effort while we're designing these workflows to make them the way users have come to expect
<ScottL> astraljava, stochastic^^^
<ScottL> falktx, yes, it was seq24 but is now qtractor
<stochastic> I'd like to see a workflow that incorporates "Professional Playback"  - i.e. DJing, podcasting, etc...
<ScottL> as seq24 was geared more to live playing
<falktx> ScottL: ah, qtractor is _not_ a  midi player
<astraljava> ScottL: The scoring/notation does look good, I'm no DJ so I have no say on that.
<stochastic> I'd also like to see a 'Notation' workflow
<craigs63> in 2.3 or broken out separate?
<ScottL> astraljava, stochastic : for those work flows you desire, can you improve what he have on the wiki?
<ScottL> i don't think they will get done otherwise
<stochastic> also a "live performance" workflow would be nice
<stochastic> but not essential
<stochastic> craigs63, what do you mean?
<ScottL> i would also like to mention two things:
<ScottL> #1 i don't think we should worry about all the things we "could" have right now, minimal is probably the best option now
<craigs63> stochastic:  2.3 on the workflow now, mentions notation.
<astraljava> ScottL: Absolutely.
<ScottL> #2 i would like to develop a way latter to manage work flows after installation (i.e. add or remove them)
<ScottL> s/latter/later
<astraljava> #2 is an interesting idea.
<ScottL> perhaps in -controls
<astraljava> I think that should be it, yeah.
<stochastic> craigs63, the "coding and experimental synthesis" part of that is probably excessive
<ScottL> so, i think we agree on "record audio" and "record synths" as supported work flows
<ScottL> do we want to include others mentioned so far?
<falktx> ScottL: if you could do a mock-up of what you want for -controls and managing workflows, I can easily code it for you ;)
<ScottL> thank you falktx , we can certainly do that later :)
<astraljava> I think we better go with as few as possible, while still maintaining a usable setup that benefits those who install US.
<falktx> ScottL: I would try a welcome screen, mini-doc wizard, and small -controls in one app. what do you think?
<ScottL> falktx, let's talk about this later if you don't mind
<stochastic> ScottL, is there a reason not to include the "Professional Playback" and "Notation" workflows?
 * ScottL apologizes if being rude but i really want to get some things decided about work flows, we have already been here one hour
<falktx> sure, np
<ScottL> stochastic, if you think they are complete, then i will not disagree
<ScottL> but we will need someone to work up a wiki page probably describing the work flow in greater detail
<stochastic> yes, the sub-sections do need to be combined in the meta package, but okay
<astraljava> stochastic: I think those (at least the Notation) require more love until we can commit to them.
<stochastic> astraljava, how so?
<astraljava> Well, I might be wrong, and maybe I have missed something, but perhaps there are things to be investigated, still? I at least haven't seen them mentioned very often on this channel.
<stochastic> but graphics are hardly ever talked about in this channel either, doesn't mean we should ignore that workflow
 * stochastic doesn't mean to have attitude there, just a counter example
<astraljava> stochastic: I didn't mean we should ignore them. I was just being careful.
<ScottL> okay, stochastic and astraljava, how about we try to include them but give them some special attention as well during this process to validate them?
<astraljava> I at least want to spend more time on that specific work flow until I can honestly say I can commit on delivering it.
<ScottL> +1
<stochastic> I would gladly take on the bulk of work associated with a "notation" and a "professional playback" workflow
<astraljava> Ok, if you feel like it, then fine by me.
<stochastic> astraljava, I'd love to know what you think is required
<ScottL> i'll work on the 'recording audio' and 'recording synths' unless others want to them or to assist with them
<stochastic> maybe after the meeting
<ScottL> are we through the audio work flows then?
<astraljava> Sure.
<stochastic> I think that covers Audio, yes.
<ScottL> graphics next?
<stochastic> okay
<ScottL> i wouldn't mind a generalistic work flow for creating a scalable vector graphic which would basically be inkscape
<ScottL> because it can be used for so many things (fliers, title screens for movies, icons, etc)
<ScottL> i think a generalized work flow for editing digital pictures would be helpful too
<falktx> inkscape, gimp, and some color picker is more than enough for me
<ScottL> but i think the question for editing digital pictures would be the application - gimp or mypaint come to mind
 * ScottL also agrees with falktx 
<falktx> blender comes to mind too
<ScottL> falktx, what would you suggest blender be used to accomplish?
<falktx> 3d fx on images
<falktx> blender can do crazy effect
<ScottL> stochastic, astraljava : any thoughts in this area?
<falktx> err, blender can do everything!
<ScottL> hehe, true
<stochastic> as we discuss this, I'll admit that I'm an amateur at best in this dep, but I'd love to see us begin to cater to real professionals in some workflows by putting together stuff that isn't suggested in the standard Ubuntu
<astraljava> ScottL: Sorry, no. Not a graphics person.
<stochastic> there are some great tools out there, and maybe it won't happen this release, but we should think about pro image/printing/design studios
<ScottL> stochastic, i cannot tell you have much i agree with this statement, i know the libre graphics magazine think this way too
<ScottL> how about i talk to some people outside this group and help develop this more?
<ScottL> shall we move onto video and photography?
<ScottL> or will this progress the same as with video?
<astraljava> I don't understand the question.
<astraljava> But yeah, if you know people who could help with the professional graphics, please do.
<ScottL> yes, i meant i will approach professionals who use the tools for their input
<astraljava> That part I did get. Not the latter.
<ScottL> my last two questions were showing my impatience to be honest as i need to go and do other things
<astraljava> Yeah ok. We can move on.
<stochastic> so are we leaving graphics and video workflows to be determined at a later date?
<ScottL> well, i meant that if video and photography discussion are going to progress the same as the graphics then i will probably withdraw now
<ScottL> stochastic, i would say so
<stochastic> video needs some debate as to which editor is best
<stochastic> but that's not something I know about, I've heard blender is great
<ScottL> stochastic, i feel very strongly about blender as the "professional" video editor
<falktx> I would vote for kdenlive
<stochastic> is OpenShot a contender?
<falktx> kdelive is made by the same devs that make MLT (the backend, also used by openshot)
<ScottL> plus it includes a compositor which is essential for film grade work flows (i.e. green screen but also severe color bending amongst other abilities)
<falktx> ScottL: what about blender and kdenlive?
<ScottL> i don't have much opinion between openshot (which has improved very much and development continues) and kdenlive
<ScottL> i have heard that both applications are buggy or crashes for some, but work perfectly for others
<ScottL> okay, i need to leave the discussion
<astraljava> Thanks, at least we got somewhere.
<astraljava> Good start for these.
<ScottL> wait
<knome> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Roadmap, if you lot are interested what is happening with xubuntu :)
<ScottL> i'll offer this about video
<ScottL> i will be supporting a film making/music video work flow with blender
<astraljava> knome: Thanks! I'm sure many are, but I at least plan on working on the system-level link between Studio and Xubuntu. Not alone, of course (or at least hopefully).
<ScottL> i'll be working with a group called "nofilmschool" who use DSLR camera to shoot movies
<astraljava> ScottL: Intriguing.
<ScottL> i would still suggest that we can develop and support a 'make a home movie' work flow with kdenlive or openshot or whatever
<astraljava> Valuable experience.
<ScottL> astraljava, yes, i am very, very excited about this and i should be buying a dslr camera this christmas to do this (along with lenses, etc)
<ScottL> okay, i'm gone this time ;)
<stochastic> I might suggest that we offer essentially two workflows each for graphics and video, one professional trac, one hobbyist trac
<astraljava> stochastic: Good idea!
<stochastic> ScottL, ^^ last tidbit
<christof> ls
<stochastic> astraljava, will you be around in 15min to discuss work needed on the workflows I'll be spearheading
<astraljava> stochastic: Yep, sure will.
<stochastic> hey astraljava, so what's required for a workflow beyond a meta package and some documentation?
<astraljava> stochastic: I have no grief with the work flow itself. I'm just not overly familiar with the tools, myself, but I have interest in Notation, so that's why I said I cannot say I can commit to delivering until I've done further research.
<stochastic> ahh understandable
<astraljava> So I was not under-estimating your efforts there.
<stochastic> out of curiosity though what do you think a workflow requires before release?
<astraljava> Just speaking from my point-of-view solely.
<stochastic> to turn it from an idea on paper to a great software package
<astraljava> Well, tested tools, steps, and some consensus from the team that the quality is acceptable.
<astraljava> By tools I mean the apps.
<astraljava> By steps I mean that several people have run them through, and verified that it works as documented.
<astraljava> By quality I mean that the apps are of good quality, and the end result is nothing to be ashamed of, artistic values aside.
<stochastic> okay, interesting take
<stochastic> I like
<stochastic> I was more thinking that we'd want some documentation for each workflow, like step-by-step of the basics, we'd also want it tested etc...
<stochastic> but I like your criteria
<astraljava> Well, what you are suggesting kinda leads to that, when done properly.
<stochastic> yes
<astraljava> It's just that at some milestone, we have to keep those in mind when making the decision of whether or not to release said work flow.
<astraljava> It's easy to put people to work on them when those are specified. When the steps are clearly defined, asking people to reproduce is the simplest way of finding bugs.
<stochastic> well please feel free to yell at me if you feel either the Notation or the Professional Playback workflows are not making the grade by New Years Day
<astraljava> I can only commit to one work flow, so far, cause I want to get more involved with the stuff under the hood. That's why I'm participating more in the Xubuntu devel work.
<stochastic> great
<astraljava> stochastic: Gotcha. But don't think you have to do it alone.
<astraljava> I will assist, at least if you need it. But you can certainly head them.
<craigs63> I can take a look at the Notation stuff, at least as far as trying what the wiki says ,  I've never used the Musescore program.
<craigs63> And as always, nitpicking for spelling and grammar.
<astraljava> I'm also gonna try to put more effort into the bug fixing. We've probably got the worst track record on supporting older releases, out of all derivatives.
<stochastic> true
<stochastic> we generally exude the opinion that we're too busy working on new stuff to worry about those old releases
<astraljava> Exactly. Which makes me feel very, very ashamed.
<stochastic> knome, can we get the code for the new site to be moved to bzr sometime in the near future https://code.launchpad.net/~ubuntustudio-dev/ubuntustudio-resources/website
<ScottL> stochastic, can we use a bzr branch under the website team please?  restriction of access and all that
<ScottL> you are a member of that team
 * ScottL is now reading backscroll while waiting for next text
<ScottL> task, not text
<knome> stochastic, i'll look at that early next week
<stochastic> ScottL, that branch is now owned by the website team.
<stochastic> https://code.launchpad.net/~ubuntustudio-website/ubuntustudio-resources/website
<ScottL> stochastic, oh good, thank you!
<holstein> AH!
<holstein> i should have said i would be in a concert today
<astraljava> No prob. You've got most of the work flows assigned.
<holstein> cool
<holstein> i think...
<astraljava> The rest of us are gonna spend the winter in the Bahamas.
<holstein> lol
<holstein> good plan
<astraljava> We should have said that would happen if someone misses this one.
<holstein> whats up with that thread about the RT kernel?
<holstein> i feel like thats about 3 cycles too late
<astraljava> Hmm... no idea.
<holstein> maybe its just that Ralph and I get a long so well
<astraljava> Best mates, huh?
<holstein> yeah
<holstein> we go way back
<knome> anybody interested in xubuntu stuff, feel free to join our meeting in 1h 45mins at #xubuntu-devel 
<astraljava> Seriously, who'd that be?!
<knome> no idea.
<stochastic> ScottL, astraljava, holstein, falktx, in our refinement of the Graphics and Video workflows, we should probably browse some pages like this: http://distrowatch.com/search.php?category=Multimedia
<stochastic> Let's combine Notation and Graphics Print Production into just "Print Production"
<stochastic> ^^workflows
<ScottL> good idea stochastic
<stochastic> an interesting review of video editors for Ubuntu: http://ubuntuforums.org/showpost.php?p=11454037&postcount=11
<ScottL> stochastic, interesting
<ScottL> we've been shipping both, openshot and blender, for a cycle or two i think
 * ScottL can't actually remember for sure
<ScottL> but i know we did ship both, maybe openshot got pulled
<ScottL> stochastic, i'll offer a single critique to that post, if you use the concept of "scenes" then it _isn't_ to slow or hard to edit long form video
#ubuntustudio-devel 2012-11-05
<persia> micahg: zequence: http://bugs.debian.org/335568 is the end of the saga: I don't find the middle anywhere convenient, but I suspect it's somewhere in b.d.o archives for linuxsampler (along with rationale why non-free wouldn't work)
<ubottu> Debian bug 335568 in phpmyadmin "phpmyadmin: Apache 2 configured without permission" [Normal,Fixed]
<persia> err, debian bug 336568
<ubottu> Debian bug 336568 in ftp.debian.org "RM: linuxsampler -- "may not be used in COMMERCIAL software or hardware products"" [Normal,Open] http://bugs.debian.org/336568
<persia> micahg: Everyone who runs flash runs binaries installed by untrusted sources: that's the point of -installer packages.
<persia> Ah, there it is: debian bug 328121 - with rationale why it can't be non-free, and reports of discussions with upstream.
<ubottu> Debian bug 328121 in linuxsampler "linuxsampler: Inconsistent and non DFSG free license" [Grave,Open] http://bugs.debian.org/328121
<persia> (hint: when searching for very old things, search for archived bugs)
<micahg> persia: I don't consider Adobe an inherently untrusted source
<persia> micahg: You can't know it was compiled at Adobe: there isn't a crytographically verifiable record from notice of build to delivered source.  I don't disagree that most folk are willing to trust Adobe, but I don't see a philosophical difference between trusting one upstream (Adobe) and another (LinuxSampler).
<persia> For extra fun, flashplugin-installer doesn't download from Adobe anymore: now it downloads from Canonical, and while most users trust the path by which either the source or binary gets from Adobe to Canonical, it's not inherently trustworthy, it just happens that users coincidentally trust the vendors involved.
<len-dt> In the same way that most of us don't trust a down load from MS?
<persia> len-dt: Perhaps, although when the MS font package was hosted by MS, most folk did trust MS.  Now they trust some random guy who claimed to have downloaded it from MS before MS stopped hosting it.  Trust is a funny thing.
<persia> But I didn't intend to get into a diatribe about trust: the point was only that *-installer packages were intended to install stuff that the distribution couldn't trust, so users had to make their own trust decisions.
<len-dt> Ya, I thought about that as I was writing it. There is a difference between font and executable.
<len-dt> It also lets the user know what the vendor expect in it's use.
<persia> I don't know enough about the environment in which font hinting code runs to agree or disagree with you.
<persia> Yes, indeed, it does integrate the vendor experience with the distribution.  When done properly, it further allows the user to manage the installed content as they might manage any other package on the system.
<micahg> -installer packages are less about trust and more about distribution rights
<persia> micahg: Then I don't understand "I don't think we'd want an installer installing binaries built by untrusted  sources
<persia> "
<persia> If it's not about trust, then why do we care?
<micahg> well, I guess I took the trust for granted in those cases, but the reason why they're needed is distribution rights
<persia> Sure, I can agree with that :)
 * micahg steps away for a bit...bbl
<persia> So, setting trust aside, I'm not convinced that users actually receive a license that allows them to run linuxsampler after downloading it, but there are lots of things on the internet like that ...
<persia> (and there are only a few places that have laws that prohibit copying without license (e.g. DCMA))
<len-dt> persia, the user doesn't receive a licence to run LS, They already have that. What they get is something that lets them know the licence is not like the rest of the deb/ubuntu licences and allows them to decide before installing if they wish to do so.
<len-dt> All the SW we offer has restrictions on how it can be used. LS is no odd that way.
<len-dt> It is rather what those restrictions are that is odd
<persia> What license to use do they receive?  My understanding is that the additional restriction invalidates the no additional restrictions clause of the GPL.
<persia> And the additional bit doesn't say anything about the right to copy or use it otherwise...
<len-dt> Or not to.
<persia> Right, but in places not Hondouras or Nicaragua, the Berne convention applies, which means there isn't any license to copy or use by default.
<persia> I don't happen to be in one of those places, and suspect this is also true for most of our users.
<len-dt> I'm not a lawyer for sure.... I would guess a lawyer would have a harder time with it than I would though.
 * persia is also unlicensed to dispense legal advice
<len-dt> Good point :)
<persia> That said, when we're just passing on a license that appears to allow arbitrary use, it seems sane to me.  When something more complicated happens, I seek counsel.  In this case, counsel I retain wouldn't be able to give a statement that would help Ubuntu Studio distribute linuxsampler, so I haven't bothered to do so.
<len-dt> It sounds like you are saying though that with an addon the GPL part becomes invalid and so the only licence is the addon.
<persia> That's my understanding, yes.
<persia> Under GPL section 10 (see /usr/share/common-licenses/GPL)
<len-dt> I can wrap my head around that.
<len-dt> Even without rereading it.
<persia> I totally sympathise with what upstream is trying to do, but I believe they should review that with counsel, and come up with something that has broader consensus of compliance.
<persia> Until then, I certainly wouldn't be comfortable having a copy on any system I took to the US or the EU (and I ought to refresh my understanding of affected regions)
<len-dt> section 10? Part of the no warranty part?
<len-dt> Or am I reading the wrong one?
<persia> 10. Automatic Licensing of Downstream Recipients : third paragraph.
<len-dt> I 3was looking at version1 not 3
<persia> Section 6 of GPLv2
<persia> I don't think that many folk still use GPLv1, but it is section 6 there as well.
<len-dt> It's ok I am reading 3 now.
<persia> Mind you, the only real way to get an answer is for someone to have a dispute in court, in a sufficient set of jurisdictions that a consensus develops, but I don't think anyone wants that to happen: frightful waste of resources.
<len-dt> generally personal resources.
<persia> Depends.  A couple weeks ago I went to an event where 90% of attendees were paid by their employers to review open source licenses.  All volunteer and contributory resources, but not all personal.
<len-dt> So basically, it sounds like someone (not me :) needs to write either a straight GPL or commercial offering that works the same with a clear licence. (we would prefer GPL, but what is there is worse than paying for the same thing)
<persia> Except that if it isn't GPL, it may not be able to link against all the GPL libraries it uses, making this very complicated.
<persia> Given the history, I suspect some copyright holders thought they were contributing under the GPL, and others under the non-commercial bit, making any change potentially difficult.
<persia> The easiest way (although perhaps the most expensive) would be to purchase a license to redistribute the material under arbitrary terms from the authors, then distribute that as GPL, removing the restriction.
<len-dt> Ya, but what I am saying is that what is there is really not legal for anyone to use right now... it just has the understanding that only under certain uses will legal action be taken.
<persia> That matches my understanding.
<persia> Which is annoying, because lots of folk like it.
<len-dt> Yet the FLOSS world has gone to a lot of work to make this kind of SW legal and easy to distribute and distributing something without that protection of knowing it is right doesn't make sense.
<len-dt> Even without the threat of law suit
<persia> Indeed, and there are other models that folk use that are accepted: GPL+CLA+commercial license options, or MIT+trademark, etc.
<persia> With either of these, it is easier to pay upstream to use something commercially than navigate the potential exceptions available.
<persia> (This is why Debian has iceweasel and Ubuntu has Firefox: Canonical pays Mozilla to work around the trademark restriction)
<len-dt> I didn't know that
<len-dt> I did find out that it is best to leave the home page as is in the distro ...
<persia> Why?
<persia> Did all the browser-branding patches drop out over the past couple years?
<len-dt> the mozilla licence says some interesting things.
 * persia hasn't looked at rebranding the browser experience since 2009
<persia> Heh, yes it does :)
<micahg> persia: yeah, dropped in 10.10 and in 10.04 after the move to rapid release
<micahg> (browser branding)
<len-dt> It is ok to add book marks. But it does say somethings about the home page.
<persia> micahg: Ah, thanks for the update.
<len-dt> I wasn't confident I could interpret it well enough...
<persia> micahg: Is there anything else that partially replaced it, or are we back to where we were in 2006?
<micahg> persia: nothing replaced it, lack of maintainer for the branding (and rapid release made it not worthwhile)
<persia> Makes sense.  It might be nice to have a cleaner API for changing default bookmarks and homepage contents for different flavours, but that needs highly motivated folk to do.
<persia> Homepage might be just an alternatives implementation, but bookmarks are trickier.
<micahg> yeah, would be nice to have that again
<len-dt> persia, I gave up after spending a week I could have been doing something better.
<persia> Are the default bookmarks hardcode and changing, or are they something we can dig into?
<micahg> hardcoded ATM
<persia> len-dt: I totally understand.  I spent about a week trying to use the branding infrastructure when it was there for a contract arrangement, and we were never quite satisfied, so don't think my comments are "it was wonderful in the old days".
<len-dt> There is a mozilla dir in /etc where the mozilla site tells how to use it, but the ubuntu version uses something else
<persia> micahg: And they change per upstream release (potentially)?
<len-dt> Yup.
 * persia has a richer understanding of why 40% of the desktop flavours default to alternate browsers
<len-dt> persia, I ended up making *.desktop files to add to a submenu on the main menu.
<len-dt> This works for studio with xfce, but I would guess not unity
<persia> len-dt: That's slightly more scalable, because folk like me who don't use Firefox can still access them.
<persia> Could work in unity fine, if one sets up the right lenses or installs other menu providers (e.g. classicmenu-indicator)
<persia> But it's decidedly less obvious :)
<len-dt> Yes it uses whatever the default browser is.
<len-dt> I ended up doing our IRC channel that way too
<persia> Err, well, default URI MIME handler, which might not be the browser the user typically launches, but yeah.
<persia> A .desktop file for the IRC channel?  Do all the IRC clients even declare support for that?
<len-dt> Uses exo-open --launch WebBrowser http://ubuntustudio.org/ for exec
<len-dt> IRC is python /usr/lib/ubuntustudio/irc_auto_starter.py   oops zequence put a script in there
<persia> Ah, so not the XDG MIME stuff at all.  You might want to trigger sensible-browser, rather than WebBrowser, but that's an implementation detail.
<len-dt> it was xchat. Yes it does support that
<len-dt> I set xchat up to open in the xchat client already open or open a new one.
<persia> Cool
<len-dt> zequence, added the dialog so tha the user knows they are going to a live chat.
<len-dt> Whats the difference with sensible? I just used what xfce suggested.
<micahg> persia: exo-open is the handler similar to sensible-browser
<persia> sensible-* are provided by Debian, and Ubuntu had adopted them.  They are scripts that try to get something that does what you want from all the packages that provide it, rather than depending on interrelationships not documented in the package metadata
<micahg> exo-open uses the system settings (like default system browser)
<persia> micahg: By "system settings", you mean the XFCE configuration?
<micahg> well, I'm not sure which implementation it's using on the back end
<len-dt> The xfce settings manager has a preferred applications setting
<persia> That means we're probably using the Xfce Preferred Applications Framework
<len-dt> I am not sure if they are stored in the env though.
<persia> The settings GUI only exports a subset.  I don't know if it uses upstream defaults, or has a maintainer script to determine the installed state of the system and make best guesses.
<len-dt> The settings GUI is what our user sees, so it needs to work as that does.
<persia> I'm a fan of xdg-mime and xdg-open, but since we're using Xfce, these may not be the best choice currently.
<persia> Indeed.
<len-dt> As the default browser I can choose "debian sensible broser" :)
<len-dt> *browser
<persia> Which probably ought be the default default, but that's another conversation :)
 * persia runs errands
<len-dt> This is my raw 12.10 disk so I don't have another browser installed to try different settings to see what works.
<len-dt> micahg, I created the bug for jack... when you said regression-release and release name does that mean quantal, or a package name? I am not sure if it is pulse or jack that is the problem.
<len-dt> Bug #1075044
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1075044 in jackd2 (Ubuntu) "jackdbus unable to aquire port from pulseaudio" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1075044
<zequence> falktx: pong
<zequence> len-dt: About the bug. Do you ever get jackdbus to grab the audio card?
<zequence> micahg: persia: I assume that the logic around allowing flash is that it's on a trusted url, and that it has been tested. 
<falktx> zequence: hey
<persia> zequence: rather, it's that Canonical has a license to distribute the binary.  I think it gets tested, but I don't know.
<persia> The key thing for distribution being permission to distribute, rather than anything related to quality of distributed material.
<zequence> persia: Ok, so they have "permission"
<persia> Right.  I don't know details, but I suspect a commercial contract between the two parties.
<zequence> falktx: I'm just about to get out the door. I started remembering stuff after asking thelonious to tell you stuff
<zequence> falktx: Your jackd2 on Quantal is the same as on Precise, no?
<falktx> zequence: pretty much, yes
<zequence> From the orig changelog, it seems like it's the Precise package (with the added patch we've discussed)
<falktx> zequence: I had to adjust the multiarch a bit to fix the updates, but that's all
<falktx> zequence: I'll soon bring jack 1.9.9 though
<falktx> currently in testing
<zequence> falktx: I'm trying to get jackd2 updated on all releases where we have trouble with it. 12.04-13.04
<falktx> I use a custom jack version, so mine is different
<falktx> my current 1.9.8 has lots of backport fixes, ladish integration, and prefer dbus over jackd
<falktx> my 1.9.9 is the ladish version and dbus-prefered
<zequence> Eh, why does the jack2 git source not have a 1.9.9 tag?
<falktx> it's not released yet
<zequence> Ah, yes
<zequence> falktx: Ok, so it's about to be release soon. I think that will take care of things what 13.04 is concerned
<falktx> cool
<falktx> afaik stephan was just looking for people to test latest git and report issues
<falktx> I've reported some, now fixed
<falktx> so hopefully it won't take too long now
<zequence> falktx: So, you would build jackd2 differently? What else than build options for 1.9.9?
<falktx> zequence: I build jack2 very differently from debian/ubuntu
<falktx> for starts, no jack1 & jack2 combo
<falktx> that's just awful
<falktx> jack2 is the default, ever
<falktx> I also increase the max-client and ports
<falktx> throw it ladish support, and a patch to prefer dbus over jackd
<zequence> falktx: How about suggesting a new jack2 package for Debian, in the way you do it?
<falktx> because it's not gonna be done
<falktx> they want both jack versions
<zequence> falktx: So, you can't start jack1 from your package?
<falktx> in kxstudio, jack1 doesn't even exists
<falktx> to get jack1, you need to add a special ppa that will replace current jack2 version with jack1
<falktx> there's only 1 version of jack present in the system
<zequence> falktx: Well, I don't see jack1 being a problem anyway. It's how we get jackd2 working, as it is that which is causing problems for us right now
<falktx> either jack2 by default, or jack1 if the special PPA is enabled
<falktx> zequence: what problems?
<zequence> falktx: The jackd2 package in Debian/Ubuntu is still suffering from the bug that leaves jackdbus running in the background after a failed stop
<zequence> On both 12.04 and 12.10
<falktx> ah, you need to backport 2 fixes from git
<zequence> falktx: We'd SRU it
<falktx> https://github.com/jackaudio/jack2/commit/aa02feeacfa533a07f04e916334637b57eaac5a2
<falktx> https://github.com/jackaudio/jack2/commit/700489b429b0edb7046b169278e3e6751e3e59fc
<zequence> falktx: So, two patches? We won't need to change anything else than the orig source for jackd2?
<falktx> ^those fixes the shutdown issue
<zequence> falktx: Thanks man
<falktx> there's also other issues though
<falktx> but those are the most important
<persia> zequence: For Debian, those ought be pushed as RC for wheezy, and we'll SRU for precise/quantal in Ubuntu.
<zequence> persia: RC?
<zequence> Opps. I'm late. bbl
<persia> zequence: wheezy is frozen, so only release-critical bugs can be uploaded.  Once the freeze completes, it's *lots* harder to get the fixes approved as stable updates.
<zequence> persia: I see. Thanks
<len-dt> zequence, on login if PA has never run any audio stream it seems to always work. After PA uses the port then it fails. I am wondering if PA writes to disk when it gives up the port and the delay is too long for jack so jack tries to pick up the port before PA has released it.
<len-dt> Or there is some other delay.
<zequence> len-dt: What was the bug nomber again?
<len-dt> Bug #1075044
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1075044 in jackd2 (Ubuntu) "jackdbus unable to aquire port from pulseaudio" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1075044
<zequence> len-dt: I'm wondering who or where would be good to ask about this.
<zequence> falktx: Do you know anything about this?
<zequence> ..PA not releasing card to jackdbus
<zequence> btw, I applied the two commits to the Precise jackd2 source. Building now, to try it out
<zequence> High time to learn about how administration of patches work
<falktx> zequence: sorry no, I handle pulseaudio in a different way
<zequence> falktx: Right. Is there a package for that in your repo?
<zequence> falktx: And, your version of jack2 is probably a part of your solution?
<falktx> no, jack2 version doesn't matter much for my solution
<falktx> my solution is cadence
<zequence> falktx: I see. Thanks
<zequence> len-dt: So, we don't know what happens with the whole dbus thing. But, I would put my money on pulseaudio adding to the problem
<zequence> len-dt: There's a #pulseaudio channel. Perhaps hang out there, and bother them for some help on finding out what the error might be?
<zequence> len-dt: Or, in #jack
<zequence> Or both
<astraljava> falktx: Oh, I wasn't "giving you credit", I was just linking to the page that _has_ them, because as you put it, abogani tends to not provide them occasionally, which was at that time. :)
<zequence> I can't since I don't have 12.10 here. And, besides, not getting the same kind of problem, I think
 * smartboyhw just upgraded to 13.04 so...
<zequence> len-dt: Another way is to poke David on this, all though, I don't think he's responsible for jackd being able to grab the card. But, he may be interested in helping solving the problem
<zequence> His nick is diwic. 
<zequence> Ok, so I've been trying to make dbus crash for a while now. Will try the same thing on 12.10 when I get home. Sweet.
<zequence> jackdbus, not dbus :)
<scott-work> zequence: sorry i haven't replied to any emails lately, been a very, very busy weekend
<scott-work> zequence: although i did start creating/acquiring assets for the mode/workflow video i want to create :)
<scott-work> ..
<scott-work> incidentally, i have an "almost finished" mix of my first song from the album i am currently working on
<scott-work> i'll need to talk to the guy with whom i am working and ask if he's cool with me linking it to some places for people to hear
<scott-work> ..
<scott-work> i hope to tidy up the PR blueprint some more this week with an email to the ML about a few points (e.g. making sure others have a voice in posting news, etc)
<scott-work> zequence: i may also go ahead and take ownership of a few other blueprints in which i am particularly interested, unless someone objects
<zequence> scott-work: Doesn'
<zequence> scott-work: Doesn't seem like we have that much action on workflows just yet. Hopefully we can work on attracting some people later
<zequence> scott-work: I'm just going to finish getting jackd2 updated, and then I'll start working on dev docs
<zequence> I think if we get some basic stuff down, it'll be enough as basis for the general reveloper
<zequence> developer
<zequence> Should help, when introducing them to what we do
<zequence> I should put up a bzr repo for the system startup script
<zequence> i don't have US dev access yet
<zequence> ..(not that I need to)
<scott-work> zequence: i was planning on taking the video and maybe the graphics workflow blueprints and making sure they see progress
<scott-work> zequence: do you want me to deactivate the "kaj ..." account and add "zequence" to us-dev team?
<zequence> scott-work: That would be helpful, yes. There was a bug while merging the accounts. It seems to have been solved, while the accounts have yet not been merged
<scott-work> zequence: done and done
<zequence> scott-work: Great. Thanks!
#ubuntustudio-devel 2012-11-06
<zequence> Had the most wonderful memory leak. 8GB was flooded awesomely quickly
<zequence> Seems to be Java related
<falktx> nice :S
<zequence> hmm. upload to ppa seems to succeed, but nothing happens for hours, and no error mail
<zequence> ..nothing happens in the PPA I created
<falktx> it takes time for things to build
<falktx> have you checked the ppa page?
<falktx> if the package is built successfully, you won't get any email saying so
<zequence> falktx: Nothing in the ppa. No activity at all
<zequence> falktx: Do you have a nice workflow for patching packages and uploading to ppa?
<zequence> falktx: This is what I did https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ubuntustudio/UploadingToPPA
<falktx> I usually do it like this:
<falktx> 1. create package
<falktx> 2. edit changelog as needed
<falktx> 3. create source package for upload -> "debuild -S -sa"
<falktx> 4. upload -> "dput ppa:kxstudio-team/ppa *.changes"
<zequence> falktx: But isn't that for when you create a new package?
<zequence> How about patching an existing one?
<falktx> on that case you skip 1.
<falktx> and for 2, do:
<falktx> dch -i
 * persia usually uses edit-patch or checks the patch system in use, and uses that directly
<falktx> then do 3. and 4. as usual
<falktx> zequence: do you have your debian-sources somewhere? I can test the upload
 * persia also generally generates local binary packages with sbuild prior to testing, as testing source directly sometimes has unexpected consequences when the changes end up in the package
<persia> For current PPA issues, also see Bug 1071562
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1071562 in Launchpad itself "UEFI signing failures cause binaries to be republished continuously" [Critical,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1071562
<persia> This has apparently caused the PPAs to be out of space (see #launchpad /topic)
<zequence> persia: falktx: thanks for those tips. I'm writing all this stuff down for docs
 * persia thought LP had a PPA page with instructions to patch a package for a PPA
<persia> Also, I generally don't use PPAs as part of development: I don't generally see the point: if the change is good, it ought go into the distro, and if it's not good, then it needs fixing.  Test-building locally is almost always faster than waiting for the PPA queue
<zequence> persia: Having it on a PPA does make it easier for multiple people to test it, if needed
<astraljava> One more perk is that when you're without internet connection, your [s]chroot won't mind. :)
<zequence> persia: Actually, I'm thinking of what would be the right procedure for this. Patching jackd2, testing, and then doing an SRU
<astraljava> zequence: If you intend to do SRUs, then PPA won't qualify as the testbed anyway. You'd be better off with creating the chroot with buildd option.
<persia> FOr multiple testers, if it's a SRU, I'd rather get their test reports in the SRU bug so the SRU team considers them, and if it's not, that's why they call it a development release :)
<persia> So, for jackd2: I'd apply the patch to the development release first, and if that seems to work, port the patch to quantal, test locally, and push as an SRU candidate.  Once it gets published to -proposed, call for testers to the bug, and the SRU team can make an informed decision.
<zequence> persia: Ah, right. -proposed. In this case, the development release is the same as Quantal, so no change there. But, I'm doing SRU on both 12.10 and 12.04, and those are a bit different
<zequence> Well, naturally
<zequence> I should go to making the SRU requests, then
<persia> zequence: The point of the upload to raring is twofold: firstly you get to test the patch in an environment where nobody minds a bit of bugginess, and secondly because you can't SRU somthing that isn'T fixed in the development release.
<persia> The porting of the patch to precise will naturally involve some potential for it not working properly: that's why we stage SRUs in -proposed, so that they can be tested.
<persia> If it turns out that your local testing of the precise version wasn't enough, that gets caught in -proposed, the SRU team removes it from the archive, and you get to try again.
<zequence> persia: Aha, I need to patch the development version first. How do I do that?
<zequence> I mean, how do I request to get the patch added?
<persia> Your wiki page has a good procedure, except change the dput line to a sponsor request :)
<persia> I'm not up on current sponsoring procedures, but the way we did it when I was last paying close attention to this was that one prepared a new candidate version (integrated patch, changelog, etc.) all set for dput.
<persia> Then one ran `debdiff current-revision candidate-revision` and generated a package patch (as opposed to the software patch)
<persia> One then attached that to a bug in LP, and subscribed the ubuntu-sponsors LP team.
<persia> A sponsor would then catch it in the next few days (depending on sponsor availability) and upload it.
<persia> If you want to get information about the current procedure, you can ask in #ubuntu-devel
<persia> Alternately, put the debdiff somewhere I can find it, and ask me to review/sponsor.
<zequence> persia: Thanks. I'll do that
<zequence> But, now it's lunch time :)
<persia> zequence: To be clear, my goal here is to get you enough sponsored uploads that you have access to upload to all Ubuntu Studio packages (not all the packages we use, but all the packages we use that other flavours don't use)
<persia> Enjoy your lunch :)
<zequence> persia: Ah. I didn't know that was a merit needed for that. 
<persia> I'm no longer one of the folk that decides who can upload to Ubuntu, but generally one needs to 1) have been working in development for at least one release cycle, 2) demonstrate familiarity with the set of packages one intends to upload, and 3) be suitable as an Ubuntu Member
<persia> And if one intends to work as a developer in the Ubuntu project, one may as well be able to upload: otherwise one is stuck with out-of-archive flavours or PPAs alone
 * persia looks at astraljava and falktx 
<astraljava> persia: Aww... making me feel guilty for real? :)
<astraljava> I am not even a Ubuntu member. Yeah, I guess I should do something about that.
<persia> astraljava: Only a little: I never know if it's that you don't have the time or if you just don't get around to it :)
<falktx> persia: I have some packages in universe
<falktx> https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/dssi-vst/0.9.2-1ubuntu3
<falktx> :)
<astraljava> persia: Mostly it's my instability. :) I lack persistence.
<falktx> and this - https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/zyn/1-0ubuntu2
<persia> falktx: I know: I'm hoping you'll get enough to be confident applying for developer status at some point
<persia> astraljava: Given enough time, one is declared to persist, even if one is inconstant along the way: it all averages out
<persia> (although I can't speak for the current DMB, so I can't be sure)
<falktx> persia: afaik I can fix packages as I am right now. just need to get a debdiff
<falktx> persia: I think I'm able to apply for maintainership of specific packages too. but i'm not sure...
<persia> falktx: Main differences are just 1) you need a sponsor and 2) you can't vote for the TB, support a flavour, or do other governance things
<persia> falktx: You could, but there should be a consistent theme for the packages you're maintaining, and it's preferred if you're one member of a team co-maintaining a set of packages.
<falktx> well, considering that I'm against some debian policies... I stop worrying about this long ago
<persia> Which sorts of policies?  Do they also apply in Ubuntu?
<falktx> but now that my little cadence tools are getting ready, I'm starting to worry again
<falktx> persia: mostly about license issues
<persia> Oh, yeah.  Ubuntu is a bit more flexible than Debian, but those hosting our mirrors only allow so much.
<falktx> linuxsampler example is the best one
<astraljava> persia: Right, I do understand that. I guess I'm also a bit insecure. It made me look other commitments, which in turn made me burn out a little. I suppose that maybe during 13.10 dev cycle, I could seriously get back to development duties again.
<astraljava> Now is the time to get my music-related skills polished. :)
<falktx> persia: but main reason is that I'm just too busy
<persia> Technically, PPAs are supposed to have the same limits as Ubuntu, but they aren't as carefully policied (I think Canonical just removes any PPA that gets a compliant and doesn't do anything else)
<falktx> persia: I'm learning that I need to backoff sometimes, too much work is bad for the mind...
<persia> astraljava: My recommendation is just do a bit every week: don't worry about doing lots and lots: this prevents burnout.
<persia> falktx: Indeed :)
<astraljava> persia: True, this was indeed my problem.
<astraljava> I hogged all responsibility I could get. :) But I was in a very dark place in other ways, too, so I'm guessing I might be more balanced in the future.
<astraljava> I still haven't given up my dream of becoming a Ubuntu dev, some day. :)
 * falktx wants falktx@ubuntu.com :)
<astraljava> Oh you're not a Ubuntu member, yet, either?
<persia> As long as you're both motivated, I'm happy: that was the point of my look.
<persia> Remember that by getting the LP badges, you're also setting an example for those that follow, so they don't feel like it's impossible (Hey, that person has been doing this for *years* and still can't upload: I'll never get there)
<astraljava> persia: No way, I'm not losing that very easily. I still intend to get more active on debian-front, as well.
<persia> Cool!
<astraljava> True, never thought of that.
<falktx> persia: I hate how debian wants to build everything in debug mode though, I still don't get that
<persia> falktx: The idea is that one builds in debug mode, and splits out the debug symbols later in the build process, stripping the binaries like if one hadn't built in debug mode.
<persia> One then produces two packages: the regular package and the debug symbols package.
<persia> If a user has an error, they can install the debug symbols package, and debug it directly, without a rebuild.
<persia> But normal users don't waste space or execution speed on the debug symbols.
<persia> Best of both worlds, ideally.
<falktx> persia: that idea is plain wrong
<falktx> it just shows they know don't how programming works
<falktx> it makes me very sad
<falktx> like it's a toy/joke to them
<falktx> debug symbols != debug mode
<persia> Indeed, that sounds wrong, and I've never been told that is how it had to be done in Debian.
<persia> I suspect someone was confused.
<falktx> that is very bad for a pro-audio distro
<persia> And I suspect that if such an issue was brought up for discussion on the debian-multimedia list, others would agree that one only needs to expose debug symbols
<persia> It's bad for a toy distro.  Bad for everything, if it requires extra cycles.
<persia> Are we inheriting anything from Debian built in such a way?
<falktx> some packages, yes
<falktx> most recent ones are like that
<persia> Is there a way to build them to expose only the debug symbols?  I think we want to patch them that way (and probably want to discuss with debian-multimedia about doing it that way)
<falktx> for example: https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/lv2/1.2.0~dfsg1-1
<falktx> debian/rules has there: '--debug'
<falktx> :(
<falktx> persia: debug symbols are there by default when there's no stripping
<falktx> the sentence "debug symbols" sounds wrong though
<falktx> there's nothing about debug in the symbols
<falktx> they're just symbols
<persia> Yeah, but folk mostly use them for debugging, and the phrase has stuck
<falktx> a debug build always has symbols
<falktx> otherwise it's useless
<persia> Depends on what else debug does
<falktx> no optimizations
<persia> Hrm.  waf is confusing.  Has anyone asked alessio why it's this way?
<falktx> astraljava asked on debian-multimedia mailing list I believe
<falktx> no response
<persia> No response probably means everyone was too busy.  I haven't seen quadrispro around for some time, but he usually had reasons to do things.
<astraljava> Alessio is in Aberdeen as an Erasmus student, probably too much partying to pay attention to us mere mortals currently. :)
<ttoine> falktx, thanks for fixing the ardour lv2 problem in you repo for 12.10
<zequence> ttoine: What problem was that?
<zequence> Is there a bug report onit?
<falktx> ttoine: no prob
<falktx> zequence: the 12.10 package doesn't show gui for some plugins
<falktx> it might be fixed in 13.04, https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ardour/1:2.8.14-2
<falktx> I don't know how to request a backport for that... :S
<zequence> falktx: Ok. I'd like to fix that in the main repo too, if possible. I'll need to see what does not work, and would be greatful for a patch for this
<falktx> zequence: that package should have the fix, you just need to request a backport
<falktx> it's same package as in 12.10
<zequence> ok
<falktx> I can make a debdiff
<falktx> but I forgot how things work...
<astraljava> falktx: Backporting requires no debdiffs. It wants the package as-is, and needs to be tested by a few volunteers, forget how many, probably two.
<astraljava> There's a tool for that, request-backport (I believe, not on an ubuntu machine now).
<falktx> I'm not on 12.10, so I can't even test
<astraljava> falktx: Doesn't have to be you, though. :)
<persia> Needs two testers.  Testing on VM counts, for those with kvm or virtualbox
<astraljava> I can do it, now that I still have 12.10 on the desktop. Won't be long, though, as I hear raring will be even more stable during the dev cycle than quantal was.
<ttoine> I am on 12.10
<ttoine> the ardour package in the kxstudio repo works with lv2 gui
<zequence> persia: I was able to backport qjackctl to 12.04 with only me testing it
<zequence> ttoine: It doesn't help Ubuntu Studio to have working packages in ppa's 
<zequence> ttoine: If there's a bug, someone should file a bug report
<zequence> Then, someone should see about fixing it
<zequence> This is something we need to get much better at. Probably more bugs out there, if we start looking
<astraljava> zequence: Most definitely. This is actually the area where I want to focus nowadays; I stepped down from the "managerial" position, now I just need to roll up the sleeves in the "hands-dirty" position. :)
<zequence> astraljava: Sounds good. You having some experience in this. We definately don't have enough of that right now
<astraljava> zequence: I'm a little out of touch, been for the past couple years. I used to do lots more a few years back.
<astraljava> But maybe it isn't too big of a hurdle to get back in the game.
<astraljava> The music hobby certainly does wonders to my mental health, so who knows, maybe I'll heal quicker than I thought. :) Yesterday was the best day in such a long while.
<zequence> astraljava: For me, exercise was the only thing to change my ship around
<zequence> Seems like http://developer.ubuntu.com will be a good resource to link to
<zequence> I know it's probably more tuned towards other developers than flavor devs atm, but it'll hopefully be a bit better formatted than the wiki
<astraljava> zequence: Yeah, I'm doing that too. Badminton, walking/jogging and gym/hand-weights.
<astraljava> I think that'll be a good reference for anybody wanting to get into Ubuntu dev.
<smartboyhw> Hi scott-work
<scott-work> morning smartboyhw , how are you today?
 * smartboyhw wants to restart the dev of linux-rt kernel
<scott-work> i'm curious to why you want to do that
<smartboyhw> scott-work: good
<scott-work> smartboyhw: this is my view on the rt kernel:
<smartboyhw> ok
<scott-work> i believe for most computers and applications the lowlatency kernel provides plenty of "oomph" (i.e. low enough latency and little-to-no xruns)
<scott-work> btw, "most computers" != 286 machines or atom processors
<smartboyhw> yeah.
<zequence> smartboyhw: Any evidence of that -rt is better than -lowlatency? I think not
<scott-work> some 386 machines do well with onboard audio, some don't. but if you are serious about audio then you shouldn't be using onboard audio then
<zequence> Also, -lowlatency is good enough, so no need for -rt
<scott-work> even within that subset (386 machines and above) you probably should have plenty of memory, say 2g minimum (making up a nice number), but even more if possible
<scott-work> so, given that even reduced subset, there are going to be people who continue to have problems with xruns/latency....like ralph
<scott-work> two things to mention about people like this: they are a minority most likely and it is probably hardware specific
<smartboyhw> zequence, scott-work: call this a sideline project, main focus is testing (+ testing docs)
<scott-work> rt kernel _might_ fix their problems, but then again it might not....especially if there are interrrupt problems
<smartboyhw> my sideline
<scott-work> and then you start coupling the invasive nature of the patch, the need to recompile for video drivers....
<scott-work> the lowlatency kernel is an outstanding success compared to the -rt kernel
<scott-work> it's just a matter of educating the public, IMO
<scott-work> like holstein says, "people just _think_ they need the -rt kernel because that is what they read/hear....but they don't"
<zequence> Also, you might not get -rt patches for every kernel version, so some releases would either need an older kernel, or no -rt at all
<scott-work> zequence: yes, yes. i forgot about that 
<scott-work> good points as well
<zequence> It's just more work for no gain
<smartboyhw> yeah. Just want to see whether it works for now....
<smartboyhw> zequence: I don't gain anything:-P
<scott-work> smartboyhw: please, don't forget about the additional testing things i mentioned. if you want to brainstorm together, i would be gladly available to do so, even if all we do currently is establish topic that should be fleshed out
<smartboyhw> scott-work: Add it to the blueprint then
<scott-work> smartboyhw: add which part to the blueprint, the brainstorming? the topics i think should be there?
<smartboyhw> scott-work: yes
<ttoine> zequence, for all my trials, the ardour package don't support the lv2 gui, and it has always been the case. That's why I am using the package in kxstudio, and was not thinking it was a bug in Ubuntu Studio 
 * smartboyhw is applying to become a #ubuntustudio IRC o
<smartboyhw> *op
<smartboyhw> channel op I mean
<smartboyhw> zequence: Interested?
<scott-work> right, i will add items to the blueprint
<smartboyhw> :-D
<zequence> ttoine: Still, it won't help Ubuntu Studio, if 1. no one is informed there is a bug 2. Therefor no one can do anything about the bug
<ubottu> Error: Launchpad bug 2 could not be found
<zequence> ttoine: The activity on solving bugs has not been very high, something we would like to change now
<zequence> ttoine: So, if you do find a bug, please report it
<smartboyhw> lol it triggered the bot
<zequence> ttoine: And if you know of a solution, like knowing the kxstudio has this fixed, please do tell about that too (as you did)
<zequence> Somehow, we need to get the fix into the Debian package -> Ubuntu
<zequence> It doesn't help us if the fix is in a PPA
<zequence> We are not a PPA distribution
<zequence> This is an official flavor of Ubuntu
<zequence> And Ubuntu relies on Debian
<falktx> the fix is there, just needs a backport
<falktx> zequence: this was a different case since the package he was running was not from Ubuntu
<falktx> by concidence the problem is present in Ubuntu too
<zequence> falktx: Your build of ardour is different, right?
<zequence> falktx: vst? What else?
<scott-work> falktx: where is the fix? just in your PPA? a patch from ardour?
<zequence> falktx: You mentioned no debug symbols
<scott-work> if it is a patch from paul then we can just ask debian multimedia to update ardour, no?
<scott-work> and then have ubuntu sync it
<falktx> zequence: not different per say, but the libs it builds upon are not the same
<zequence> scott-work: It seems the raring version should be ok
<micahg> zequence: for backports, there's a requestbackport script in ubuntu-dev-tools
<zequence> micahg: Yep. I've done one backport already.
<falktx> scott-work: it's already fixed in 13.04, and the package is the same. it just needs a backport
<falktx> zequence: I have updated libs of several stuff (mostly lv2 related), and since this was an lv2 related issue it might not happen in Ubuntu itself
<zequence> falktx: Ok, so the bug was perhaps only in the kx version then..
<zequence> ttoine: Sorry about the noise.
<falktx> zequence: yep
<zequence> I still haven't had the time to check this myself. 
<zequence> Of course, we should not be considering kx bugs Ubuntu bugs anyway
<zequence> And I have the feeling falktx is quite active on fixing and reporting bugs on that front, as it is
<zequence> At least against the software developers (as in the case with jackd)
<falktx> yes, things like these are easy to fix
<ttoine> falktx, it is not a coincidence, actually
<ttoine> LV2 GUI don't works with the current ardour in Ubuntu
<ttoine> And I reported to you because your package for 12.04 works with LV2 GUI, and I was disapointed with 12.10 don't working
<zequence> ttoine: Which Ubuntu?
<zequence> ttoine: I mean, which Ubuntu is it where ardour does not work (the stock package)
<falktx> zequence: the bug is in 12.10
<ttoine> 12.10
<ttoine> but I am not sure that the package in 12.04 works better
<falktx> the 12.04 version uses old lv2 libs, so it's not affected
<falktx> plus, it's an older ardour version
<zequence> ttoine: Thanks.
<ttoine> you are welcome
<zequence> ttoine: Could you give me an example plugin that does not work. I will try on 12.04
<ttoine> falktx, I use your repo for Ardour with my 12.04 workstation, to get LV2 support
<ttoine> zequence, invada lv2
<ttoine> the matter is there are not a lot of lv2 plugins in Ubuntu repo
<ttoine> zequence, you may try too this
<ttoine> http://www.linuxdsp.co.uk/download/lv2/download_dsr500/index.html
<falktx> linuxdsp work fine
<falktx> the issue is with gtk2 uis, linuxdsp use external-ui
<falktx> so as lv2fil, so those will work even with the bug
<ttoine> falktx, even on 12.04 ubuntu ardour ?
<falktx> 12.04 shouldn't have this bug at all
<zequence> Nope. I don't seem to have any problems with the guis
<zequence> ttoine: I have the linuxdsp plugins
<zequence> Also mixbus
<zequence> Had I more time, I would be using it a lot more :)
<zequence> Invada was new to me (but then I haven't really been searching).
<zequence> Cool guis (haven't yet heard them in action)
<ttoine> it is not the better plugins I heard... but for free software it is not so bad
<scott-work> what lv2 gui are we speaking about? i have used the calf stuff in ardour on 12.04 without any problems
<scott-work> so i'm surprised that ttoine is saying that he is using kxstudio version of ardour for lv2 support
<zequence> scott-work: I'm sure ttoine has other reasons for using kxstudio, but it does seem like only 12.10 was affected. Going to try now
<zequence> Right, so the lv2 guis do not show. Instead you get the standard guis that you always get
<scott-work> oh, okay. i understand, i believe
<scott-work> the lv2 gui's are very much nicer than the standard ones :P
#ubuntustudio-devel 2012-11-07
<len-dt> zequence, interesting thing with the new PA. When jack-sink is available, it becomes default even though pavucontrol still shows the device as default. (this is a good thing)
<len-dt> zequence, so if jackd manages to start, then the stream transfers to jack. Good deal.
<len-dt> I think the new problem is because PA takes just a bit longer to release the HW than jack takes to aquire it (or try to).
<len-dt> It may be worse on my system because it is slower or maybe has a slower drive.
<persia> Might also be an architectural thing.  JACK might not want to advertise a working device to PA until it has claimed a device, and PA may not wish to release a device until there is an alternate available.
<persia> When a machine is fast enough, the two things happen "simultaneously", making it unnoticeable.
<persia> That said, I haven't actually looked at the code to see if it is anything like this.
<len-dt> I don't either (know what the code looks like). But PA does stop/release it's stream.
<len-dt> I don't know if there is a way to find out who has an alsa port
<persia> You can look at lsof output to see what is claiming the device
<persia> `lsof | grep /dev/snd` should show you most stuff, although you might get some permission denied errors for some processes (unlikely to be sound-related).
<persia> You can make it quieter with 2>/dev/null or sudo, but the output should otherwise be the same.
<persia> Mind you, this only reports which kernel devices are currently being accessed: mapping that to specific ports might be a bit trickier, especially if someone is running a multiplexor inside ALSA, or other sorts of interesting configuration.
<persia> I believe that by default, Ubuntu doesn't have much fancy ALSA mappings: just definition of 2-channel defaults for cards that don't advertise this well.
<len-dt> We don't add any plugins. I will try as I have time.
<persia> Heh: take a look in /usr/share/alsa/ sometime if you're curious: there's more than a few cards for which there are special arrangements :)
<len-dt> Interesting, Jack has the sinks/sources, but PA retains control of some of the controls.
<len-dt> when I cause the problem, Jack says it can't access the hw because some other application has it, but none of the sinks/sources show connections.
<len-dt> However, when I killall -9 jackdbus PA takes them back at that time.
<persia> JACK might not be able to attach to the sinks/sources without a control connection
<len-dt> Ya, but it looks like many things can connect to the controls at the same time.
<len-dt> Looks like about 8 things right now.
<persia> Hrm.  That's confusing.  Maybe there's some setting in the control that indicates exclusive access, or maybe JACK has higher requirements?
<persia> This is deeper than I understand :)
<len-dt> When jack is running, PA actually grabs more controls.
<len-dt> PA on it's own only uses two channels, but when it's connected to jack it uses 10, because jack sees ten outputs.
<len-dt> (12 inputs)
<len-dt> Every time I have started jackdbus, PA is running. The difference is only if PA has accessed a port or not.
<len-dt> That is why I think timing may be something to do with it. When PA is idle it can give up the ports faster
<len-dt> In this version of PA it does more things as it gives up the port. (nice things actually)
<len-dt> It seems to have figured out that jack is replacing a port and redirects that stream to jack.
<smartboyhw> Hey scott-work, how are you?
<scott-work> good morning smartboyhw , slight headache today. but i expected it since i was having some sinus issues lately *shrug*
<scott-work> smartboyhw: yesterday (and probably today) have been real busy at work because of a small crisis with one of our jobs in the field, but i do hope today to add some to the blueprint for testing
<smartboyhw> scott-work, oh no on the headache and work, :-D on the blueprints
<scott-work> P)
<scott-work> oops :)
<smartboyhw> scott-work,lol
<astraljava> scott-work: You got something wrong on the right lens of your goggles.
<scott-work> astraljava: just a note to say that i increased the max size limit for emails to the ubuntustudio-devel mailing list because the nansukan ones for the images keep getting hung up
<scott-work> hmmm, however, i just though i might be able to uncoditionally approve those emails and keep the limit the same
 * scott-work is digging back into the mailman options
<scott-work> eh, cdimage@nusakan.canonical.com was already on the "automatically accepted" list, so it looks like the limit size is considered separately after approval
<scott-work> leaving it with the size increase then
<zequence> Damn. I never got the beta steam client, as all members of UDS were to get
<zequence> The "wine" version works just fine for me though
 * micahg hasn't gotten one yet eitehr
<scott-work> we keep getting errors building the i386 version of the image, it looks like blender, -video, and -graphics are problems, they might all stem from blender
<ttoine> zequence, steam was demonstrated on Ubuntu ?
<ttoine> at the UDS, I mean ,
<ttoine> ?
#ubuntustudio-devel 2012-11-08
<persia> There was an announcement that it would be ported, and a plenary from someone at Valve.  Video should be findable with your favorite search engine
<persia> zequence: I don't have it yet either: they may not have sent them out yet
<ttoine> But they didn't demonstrate it "live" at the UDS
<persia> Not to my memory
<smartboyhw> Grrr I actually discovered that the 20121106 build for i386 actually didn't fail and is available for download
<zequence> The wikipedia page about Ubuntu Studio is a bit outdated http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ubuntu_Studio
<zequence> i added a section about linux-lowlatency, but it might be nice to do some more work on that page
<zequence> And add sources for some claims, etc
<smartboyhw> zequence, yeah
<smartboyhw> zequence, you live in Sweden right?
<zequence> smartboyhw: Yes
<smartboyhw> zequence, two days ago a Sweden choir came to perform at our school
<smartboyhw> forgotten it's name though
<zequence> smartboyhw: We have a lot of that here. Don't know the names of many choirs though. Only two of the big ones
<smartboyhw> zequence, give me the two big ones. Let me see which one it is:D
<zequence> Eric Ericson Choir, and the Swedish Radio Choir
<smartboyhw> no then
<smartboyhw> hmm let me try to search the name
<smartboyhw> Hmm I am sure blender is the problem
<smartboyhw> it returned a error to me when I finish my apt-get upgrade
<smartboyhw> http://paste.ubuntu.com/1342259/
<smartboyhw> Here
<persia> Needs porting to python3, or someone to do the (ugly) magic to make it not use python3.
<persia> barry (usually in #ubuntu-devel when the sun is over the Americas) has written up some nice docs on porting.
<smartboyhw> I am gonna report a bug
<persia> I think there's already a python3 tracker, but yeah, it deserves a bug, as *some* solution should be SRU'd
<persia> I suspect the same error occurs to folk who try to install blender directly
<zequence> But, this is on 13.04, right?
<persia> Oh, right.  The change to python-defaults is raring-only
<smartboyhw> zequence, yes ONLY for 13.04
<smartboyhw> python 3.3 is messing everything up
<smartboyhw> Even the new live images
<persia> That's why it's a development release: development needs doing :)
<zequence> persia: Does Ubuntu import everything from Debian Experimental?
<zequence> I mean, sync
<smartboyhw> :P
<persia> Generally only on request, but I think packages that were last synchronised from experimental might be resynchronised from experimental until told otherwise (I don't remember precisely)
<persia> I think the sync code has been under heavy modification recently, but I don't remember the location.  Someone in #ubuntu-devel likely knows, if you want to check for sure.
<persia> zequence: Found the code: lp:ubuntu-archive-tools
<zequence> persia: Thanks. I did find something about the dev release here https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopment/ReleaseProcess
<smartboyhw> Bug reported
<smartboyhw> Bug 1076230
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1076230 in Quickly community templates "Close .ui file after reading in qt and qtquick" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1076230
<smartboyhw> Damn wrong
<smartboyhw> Bug 1076320 
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1076320 in blender (Ubuntu) "blender can't be upgraded in 13.04 (Raring Ringtail) due to Python 3" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1076320
<zequence> And there's a blacklist for what packages to merge from debian http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-archive/sync-blacklist.txt
<smartboyhw> Yes this one
<zequence> python 3.2 is on the blacklist, so I suppose this is something that Ubuntu does a custom package for
<persia> doko maintains that package in both distributions, so I presume he put it there for a reason.
 * smartboyhw is asking for help about blender in their channel
<persia> They probably need a python3 patch, and I suspect they want to also do python2, as not every distribution has migrated yet.
<zequence> I'm currently setting things up for recording. Going to be recording thousands of percussive sounds, so not much activity on US for me today. Was a bit in dispair for a moment, as I couldn't open my pd program that I've created for recording, cutting and saving samples
<zequence> Was just a tiny git merge conflict
<astraljava> Ahh... gotta love those.
<smartboyhw> zequence, :D
<zequence> It's not a fun feeling when you've spent weeks on coding something, and you find it may not even start suddenly
<astraljava> Yeah, those are usually the worst. A friend on another game project said he was pretty frustrated when he had quadruple-checked everything and thought there just _is not possible_ to remain any bugs, yet the project wouldn't work.
<astraljava> Turns out it was just a not-rebooted-after-several-kernel-updates situation.
<smartboyhw> That IS the worst
<ttoine> hi
<smartboyhw> Hi ttoine 
<ttoine> hi
<ttoine> somebody knows if this possible to embed video (youtube or vimeo) on the wiki ?
<astraljava> ttoine: From moinmo.in:"As you can see, [[...]] sets a link to the target, {{...}} embeds the target, which is especially useful for pictures." Doesn't mention video there, so I guess you can just give it a shot.
<ttoine> astraljava, thanks.  So we definitively should create an illustrated doc on the wordpress site, with pictures and howtos videos
<smartboyhw> ttoine, I agree
<smartboyhw> Though I have a question though: Since there is a website team for Ubuntu Studio, should we just incorporate it into the forecoming PR team?
<astraljava> Incorporate what? Doc vs. team, I don't see the connection.
<smartboyhw> astraljava, here is the issue
<smartboyhw> There is a website team right?
<smartboyhw> Then since the new PR team should have a right to import news/others into the website, they (the PR Team members) should be in the website team
<ttoine> smartboyhw, I agree
<ttoine> knome : I can't see pleia2 online, for the Twitter account
<astraljava> Ahh... so different issues altogether. Gotcha.
<smartboyhw> astraljava, yeah
<jta> good news folks, i moved my synth to the left of my computer finally!  woohoo!
<smartboyhw> jta, yeah
<jta> smartboyhw: you know what a rearranged workstation means don't you?  MORE PRODUCTIVITY!  YIPPIE!
<smartboyhw> jta, so yeah:P
<jta> Lol...having my synth on the right was a pita to get anything done, lol....
<jta> I can use a mouse left handed but it just wasn't working out, lol....
<jta> so it should help me with the blender and audio/jack workflow...plus digitizing my midi files to use as soundtracks for video
<jta> all part of making a workflow for the combo graphics/audio heads and the distro
<jta> wb smartboyhw 
<jta> who all here does graphics?
<jta> i have a minute to chat about the graphics workflow on the distro
<smartboyhw> Hey scott-work 
<len-dt> jta that is our biggest problem, not having enough graphic people.
<len-dt> Scott does some Mish when he is around too
<len-dt> jta, we are lopsided towards audio
<jta> lol... true len-dt that's ok, i always ask for input first then i go off on my own, then I will ask for feedback, more of a courtesy and open door policy
<jta> len-dt: for sure, just putting it out there...this distro started because of latency/RTS issue so that is understandable
<len-dt> I personally would like to see us cover the rest of our workflows to the same extent as audio
<holstein> im exited about lightworks!
<len-dt> I would like to see us do something about multihead system support
<smartboyhw> :D
<jta> len-dt: yes, same here, I am working on that with blender...
<jta> i need it for my live event work...
<len-dt> I can set things up so that it works from boot to boot, but I think I should be able to set things up and change from single to multi on the fly without breaking things or having to resetup.
<len-dt> In other words there should be multiple setups with auto selection depending on what is plugged in.
<len-dt> gnome, unity xfce don't seem to do this well.
<jta> len-dt: well if you have been researching it you know there are issues...especially with the display layers in Linux.  Which in theory should make it easier
<jta> in reality, you can't trust the software programming techniques for the apps that run on the OS
<jta> and multi head on the fly means many things
<jta> but you are correct, it should "just work"
<len-dt> Anyway, I have to go make sandwiches for my kids.
<jta> there is a student working on a fix, he's in my notes.....
<jta> len-dt: cut them in multiple shapes, they will love it...
<jta> don't just cut them in half
 * len-dt smiles, he doesn't cut them at all!
<jta> len-dt: trust me, they will love it...
<jta> cut it off set diagonally then make multiple cuts on the bigger side...
<jta> or just cut a circle in the middle...
<jta> my kids loved it
<scott-work> jta: i have felt for quite a while that blender has been the most powerful and stable video editor in linux
<holstein> len-dt: i think we could find someone in the xubuntu team to get with us on multihead.. they need it too
<scott-work> i had greatly desired to work up an appropriate work flow around it so that ubuntu studio can support the profession video/film maker
<scott-work> len-dt: holstein : multihead works very nicely with stock ubuntu with ubuntu
<holstein> scott-work: yup
<holstein> scott-work: i dont think we can use any of that though, correct?
<smartboyhw> scott-work, still haven't add things to the testing docs blueprint eh?:D
<scott-work> holstein: i don't know, i would expect we could snag some portions of it, like we did with the color stuff than len-dt was doing
<jta> scott-work: cool.  Lightworks is exciting but it comes at a cost, blender I think is a better choice all things considered since many audio people want to do their own event fliers and 3D is popular for that
<scott-work> smartboyhw: last two days, and it looks like today as well, have been pretty hellish
<holstein> scott-work: sure, but why has xubuntu not done that?
<smartboyhw> scott-work, yeah your headache is still on I think. I won't bother you then:D
<scott-work> jta: i think the biggest thing blender missed out of on was to make some stupid python scripts to automate the stuff people want to do, like lower thirds, etc
<holstein> thats soemthing i see in there at least 3 or four times a week... multihead sucks comments
<scott-work> jta: i really think they could have mopped up the entire linux video world right there and people might not hold lightworks as the second coming
<jta> the issue with multi-head is as explained, you can't do it on the fly...setting it up to boot works, but autodetect sucks...
<holstein> i got it with my nvidia package.. a custom xorg.conf for it
<smartboyhw> holstein, ask knome about why Xubuntu didn't:D
<jta> scott-work: i have a small team working on the VSE to make it a better NLE...we should have something posted soon...we are also working with devs that have popular plug-ins for it
<holstein> jta: but, we *should* be able to have that
<jta> holstein: for sure
<holstein> jta: i wish i understood more about why we dont
<scott-work> smartboyhw: it's not the headache that has been the largest pain, it's the problems that i have had to solve and that are time sensitive that have made it hellish
<holstein> or why xubuntu doesnt
<smartboyhw> scott-work, ah ah ah OK
<scott-work> smartboyhw: i haven't even touched the work i was suppossed to do this week yet
<holstein> might literally be man power..
<smartboyhw> scott-work, grrrrr 
<jta> holstein: i have to have it eventually for my live event work...it has to hot swap or I have eliminated part of my workflow
<smartboyhw> It's Thursday already
<scott-work> jta: do you have a website that you blog under?
<scott-work> blender VSE ?
<holstein> jta: its arguably more of an issue for US.. xubuntu is more for one screen desktop users where we would be more likely to want dual head for audio/video tasks
<holstein> smartboyhw: o/
<scott-work> http://blendervse.wordpress.com/
<smartboyhw> holstein, o/
<scott-work> that is the blog i follow, but it's labeled "blender VSE" on the page
<scott-work> i follow a few others too
<jta> scott-work: no web presence yet...I had one and am rebranding, it will be up over the winter break...next week is my last week for big/long events
<jta> until about mid January
<jta> scott-work: no I am not directly affiliated with that website or 3point edit, the blogger, he's active on blenderartists.org and we are in those circles
<jta> 3pointedit on ba
<jta> scott-work: yes, it's a good blog
<jta> we have not officially announced our intentions yet, and there are other people looking at and starting to work on the VSE, so it is alive and well
<jta> I think a stronger blender and supporting app presence on ustudio will make it more attractive for VJays
<jta> they can install their own VJ fav apps but a good core is important to start with, and that way they will not have to mess with blender, we will have it all set up
<scott-work> i agree and i certainly want to empower and support them
<scott-work> also it's crazy stupid how small the blender package is compared to other available NLEs, if i remember correctly
<jta> scott-work: exactly, and there are a lot of other fine points that make it an optimal choice
<jta> for one, it just doesn't crash like lightworks does...
<scott-work> i seem to remember they were working on hardware acceleration for HD video, i hope that is still happening, although i believe that dumping to image sequence still happens quite often in profession movie making
<scott-work> one thing that kdenlive and others do well is just import the video whatever the format is and kdenlive can automatically create proxies for you
<scott-work> no need to avconv (again), but this time for a reduce resolution
<jta> scott-work: blender vse does auto proxies also
<jta> auto proxies are a good workflow point
<scott-work> jta: ooooh, sweet. i haven't played with it in a while and when i did i had a book for the 2.4.9 version (i think), but i certainly haven't played very much with the current version
<scott-work> aye, they are
<jta> scott-work: wow, the whole UI has changed, we are up to 2.64 now...2.65 soon
<jta> scott-work: the devs are going node crazy also...so there is a new tiles based compositor and lots of nodes...the interaction with VSE is still a bit odd but it's getting better
<scott-work> that's incredible news!  i am going to really start looking at it again for video now :)
<smartboyhw> :)
<scott-work> i've been using kdenlive and getting very, very comfortable with it....it's quite smooth in many areas
<scott-work> but i really hate to bring in crap loads of kde dependencies just for a NLE
<scott-work> and the node editor is just amazingly powerful (if slightly complicated for most)
<scott-work> (node editor in blender)
<jta> scott-work: yes it is, but i am working with professional compositors in southern california and we are coming up with good instructional material that we will share with the community...so it should make things a lot quicker in the workflow/learning curve aspects
<jta> scott-work: like sometimes you have to do little things to get output right...and that is cryptic/enigmatic...
<jta> kdenlive is a great program for what it does...
<jta> does anybody here use a typical webhosting service for a shell account?  as in setting up IRC listening?  I want to have a 24/7 irc connection that I can shell into
<scott-work> i use a VPS that has a shell account, it's around 15 USD per month (obviously slightly less if paid bi-annually or annually)
<scott-work> i would imagine that (but i'm not an expert) that any shared plan might not have shell access, but just FTP
<jta> scott-work: i already have a good web host so I am not looking to add more $$$, I may just set my old laptop up and run it 24/7...but I would rather run it on my hosting service
<jta> shell access is not a shell account with what I want to use it for scott-work  
<astraljava> jta: I use IRC just as you described. I pay â¬30 a year for debian squeeze shell account, has 50GB space, apache2 with PHP+mysli, pretty much everything you can think of. Read my email from there with mutt etc.
<scott-work> jta: looking at the blender news i see some improvements like i mentioned. for example the new green screen compositing nodes
<scott-work> that is exciting news
<astraljava> Downtime probably around few hours a year, maybe not exactly 99.999% uptime, but close.
<jta> scott-work: for sure, the new Mango Open Movie Project/Tears of Steel really added a lot of VFX and live action capabilities, especially with match moving/camera tracking/green screen/compositing
<jta> astraljava: i will look in to that becasue that actually gives me some other benefits on the debian front
<astraljava> jta: Well, I'm not sure you'll qualify for this particular service, though. http://www.kapsi.fi/english.html
<astraljava> We can set something up, though.
<astraljava> :)
<jta> well i like finish heavy metal music, does that count as a connection to Finland astraljava ? lol...
<jta> Finnish
<astraljava> Oh, which bands?
<astraljava> jta: Well, we could set up a project that somehow deals with this area, or anything remotely linked to this country. What would you be interested in?
<astraljava> Then you could say you want provider close to the origin, and they would fit the need better. :)
<jta> astraljava: I am working with blender and they are in the same time zone...so the shell account is mostly intended to monitor european chat while I am asleep or have my computer off
<jta> and I am working towards providing better blender/3d/graphics support for this distro
<jta> blender is out of amsterdam, and there are a lot of finnish users and a few devs
<jta> that would be the most solid connection
<astraljava> jta: Yeah I noticed that, but failed to welcome you. So, welcome! :)
<astraljava> I guess you could use that as the argument for the application. :)
<jta> astraljava: thanks
<astraljava> Since you're the biggest-into-graphics-guy in here, what's your take on Cinelerra?
<jta> cool..I will put it in my notes..i am researching using my own webhost atm
<jta> astraljava: it's a dead project and not community driven or heavily supported...
<jta> it has some great features, just too many "issues"
<astraljava> I tried to get that going, and talked to some guys on some of their IRC channels (this is way back, so I'm forgetting the details already), but it seemed even their own community wasn't really sure how/which version/whatever would be suitable for any given distribution.
<jta> blender is alive and well
<astraljava> Yeah.
<jta> astraljava: it's too hardware dependent...blender will run on just about anything to one degree or another
<jta> and it's multi OS so I am a big supporter
<astraljava> Yeah, it sounds like a clear winner.
<astraljava> Alright, let's get the Studio jam sessions going: http://www.jamwithchrome.com
<knome> well, we're working on a monitor setting up display
<knome> that's what will be it from our side
<zequence> ttoine: Please have a look at what has been suggested on both documentation, as well as public relations in blueprints
<zequence> ttoine: Some of the things you suggest have already been suggested
<zequence> ttoine: On user docs https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/ubuntustudio-r-user-documentation
<zequence> ttoine: PR https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/ubuntustudio-r-public-relations
<scott-work> jta: do you use a particular ppa (presuming you use blender on ubuntu) for blender?
<jta> ppa? scott-work
<jta> i use a ubuntu flavor
<scott-work> Personal Package Archive
<jta> ah, no, not yet...
<scott-work> you can build and host your own code (including variations of code in the repo)
<jta> yes, I have been discussing that with one of my project leads
<scott-work> although it looks like 2.63a is the repos for quantal and raring
<scott-work> 2.62 for precise
<scott-work> okay, i just wanted to make sure i could get some of the latest versions for playing with it this weekend
<jta> we were talking about debian squeeze also
<jta> 2.62 is fine...the mango stuff is in 2.64
<jta> under debian flavors you should be able to unpack the offical linux download and have it work...may get a library or two fail...
<jta> just run it from terminal and watch the window...don't dc it
<jta> you can gui to it, then open a terminal and ./blender
<jta> it will give you all the feedback you need
<astraljava> jta: And is Ubuntu considered as a flavor in this case?
<jta> for sure
<jta> astraljava: 
<jta> hey, how to you do the two up carrots in chat?  aka cones
<astraljava> ^^
<astraljava> Depends on keymap. :)
<jta> yes..what's the key strokes?
<jta> erm...standard english usa?
<astraljava> Shift - 5
<astraljava> err...
<astraljava> Shift + 5
<astraljava> :D
<astraljava> err...
<jta> %
<astraljava> Shift + 6
<jta> ^^
<jta> oh...I thought people did the double thing with some type of chat shortcut
<jta> lol...like '/lookupthere'
<jta> so you didn't have to do what we just did, lol...
<astraljava> I don't think so, but I could be wrong. It's been documented to happen before.
<jta> i just see the double carrot so much I thought there was a shortcut
<astraljava> jta: But I _loved_ what we just did there. *blink* *blink*
<jta> like '/payfooknattentionplease'
<astraljava> I THOUGHT YOU DID TOO!!!1oneeleven
<jta> lol....
<astraljava> *sniff*
 * jta hands astraljava some tissue for that sniff
<jta> yes the communicable interaction was fabulous...just the attempt at a short cut was a complete fail, lol...
<jta> ^^^^^^^^^
 * jta goes carrot crazy
 * jta hands astraljava some java flavored chocolate to make ammends
<astraljava> Whee!
<astraljava> I feel so much better already.
<jta> woohoo!
 * jta whistles to the 7 dwarves song, "I owe, I owe so off to work I go, la da ti da la da ti da I owe..."
<astraljava> Have fun.
<scott-work> i did find a ppa for blender 2.64a https://launchpad.net/~irie/+archive/blender
<astraljava> It soothes me not even remotely as well as java-flavored chocolates.
<scott-work> the blender mango page (http://mango.blender.org/about/) has a great section that mentions some goals in the first paragragh
<scott-work> this is something that i have been wanting to accomplish for ubuntu studio for a while
<ttoine> zequence, great !
<len-dt> scott-work, how does multi-head in vanilla respond to adding or subtracting a monitor in the middle of a session?
<scott-work> pretty well from my limited experience
<len-dt> does it remember how it was set up before?
<scott-work> i did have some problems at one point with a certain set of monitors and it not working well (because it was trying to exceed to max size apparently)
<scott-work> but that was with a laptop and a widescreen external monitor
<scott-work> i think
<scott-work> "does it remember...", i'm not sure i understand the question, len-dt 
<len-dt> for example if two monitors were side by side and one is unplugged when plugged back in is it still side by side or super imposed?
<scott-work> there isn't previous settings available i think
<scott-work> ah, not sure
<len-dt> That in my opinion is the bigest problem 
<scott-work> i can test this out tonight if you would like?
<scott-work> it might not remember specific settings per monitor, but it might remember general settings
<len-dt> Maybe I should try it... my Yf is out of town and her machine has vanilla.
<len-dt> I wish I had another monitor. I could sure use dual head for audio.
<len-dt> I have a few old S3 cards around. I should drop one in my machine.
<len-dt> scott-work, as I recall xrandr (that everthing seems to be a gui for) doesn't beside very well. The monitors have to be offset by so many pixels.
<scott-work> len-dt: i'm not sure what vanilla is using as a front end, but i'm pretty sure it isn't xrandr, at least as i know it
<len-dt> I will say that any of the performance software I have tested (impress etc) seems to work OOTB
<len-dt> scott-work, as far as I know any setting change is done as a call to xrandr.
<len-dt> I think any save too. At least xfce, yrandr and arandr do.
<scott-work> len-dt: i'll do a quick test. plug in 2nd monitor, move it somewhere, unplug it, plug it back in
<len-dt> Ok, also look for what happens in one monitor mode after pulling the plug.
<scott-work> i don't think i have actually done more than have both monitors side by side and extend the desktop
<scott-work> what do you mean by "one monitor mode"?
<len-dt> When I pull the plug I end up with the screen that is left as a window in the middle of a big virtual screen I can't see the menu bar etc.
<scott-work> oh. i don't remember experiencing that
<len-dt> Happens in xfce.
 * len-dt is off to pick his son up.
<scott-work> going home now
<ttoine> zequence, are you still here ?
<ttoine> knome, if you are here, pleia2 seems to be always  away
<knome> ttoine, here i am
<knome> ttoine, pleia2's still traveling. wait until next monday and she'll be around much much more
<ttoine> oh ok. can't know that ;-)
<knome> no problem
<knome> is there something you want to go through with me?
<knome> i now notice i didn't go through the wordpress stuff with ailo, as i promised. oops. :)
<zequence> ttoine: I'm here for a little while longer
<zequence> ttoine: I don't think GRUB has anything to do with linux-generic being installed when doing an update
<zequence> If linux-generic is not installed, it should not be installed when doing the update
<len-dt> zequence, some of us have generic as well because it uses less battery.
<len-dt> I find where I need battery I don't need low latency.
<zequence> len-dt: That is a different issue. If you install linux-generic, than it being updated when doing an update, is quite natural
<len-dt> None of my machines with just low latency are getting generic updates.
<len-dt> But I will add 12.10 lowlatency has gotten a low latency update :)
<zequence> I'd need to find out if -generic got installed somehow, without installing it manually. I seem to remember this happening sometime in the past
<len-dt> I personally have not had it happen in either 12.04 or 12.10 and have had both up for over two weeks.
<len-dt> 12.04 for 6 months
<zequence> I can't find any reason why it would. 
<zequence> The guy who claimed had that happen was installing some firmware
<persia> There are some outstanding issues with the kernel -header packages and dependencies that may cause -generic to be installed unexpectedly.  I know this has been a continuing source of annoyance for the server folks for some years.
<persia> Ah, installing firmware almost certainly will do it, as most of that depends on linux-headers, which depends on linux-generic-headers | ..., so if there are not yet kernel headers installed, will end up installing -generic because it can't know which is the right set of headers.
<zequence> I think some firmware have linux-image as recommend, which in turn depends on linux-generic
<zequence> apt-cache rdepends linux-image
<zequence> Shows a bunch of firmware
<zequence> But, dkms also recommends linux-image
<zequence> I don't know. Could be the guy installed something by mistake too
<zequence> 10
<ttoine> zequence, I don't say that this is because of grub. What I say is that the latest kernel are installed for security purpose, be it a -generic or a -lowlatency. And grub is configured to load the "freshest" kernel
<ttoine> so the matter is more a problem of choice at startup
<ttoine> and is more a matter for people using laptops, as they will install -generic for battery
<ttoine> that's why I suggest we change the grub setup so it will show the menu, and save the last choice
#ubuntustudio-devel 2012-11-09
<zequence> ttoine: I don't find that the latest -generic is installed, if -generic is not installed at all
<zequence> ttoine: Also, the GRUB menu usually does show for me, for about 10 sec
<len-dt> zequence, I don't think he said that
<len-dt> I think he is saying that because people do install generic, this would be a better way of doing grub
<zequence> But, I don't know why GRUB shows. Perhaps for me because I have multiple OS's
<len-dt> I have had it off and on too. Not sure why.
<zequence> len-dt: The discussion started because of the addition ttoine made to this https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/ubuntustudio-r-misc
<len-dt> Ya, I saw the email.
<zequence> Perhaps ttoine misunderstood what I meant. 
<len-dt> I was going by what he said three or so lines up
<len-dt> I also feel the grub menu is less than great for US
<zequence> It would be handy with a boot order tool. I think there are some
<len-dt> The default item is just "Ubuntu"
<len-dt> I think it should always have the word lowlatency if it is.
<zequence> len-dt: I agree. That should be changed. Did you add a workitem for it?
<len-dt> I don't remember. I have been kind of out of it this cycle.
<len-dt> I have not added much
<zequence> I added both about changing the menu back to default, as well as making it show for 10 sec by default
<len-dt> Yup, was just looking.  ;)
<zequence> Could this be the file that creates the custom Ubuntu stuff? /etc/grub.d/41_custom
<zequence> I can't understand something about that script
<zequence> Like, how "config_directory" works
<len-dt> While we are at it, it would be nice if the initrd works at leas as nice as the one on the live ISO.
<len-dt> zequence, to change from hidden timeout to visible is quite easy. See file /etc/default/grub
<len-dt> zequence, GRUB_DEFAULT can be changed from 0 to saved. Then GRUB_SAVEDEFAULT can be set to true.
<len-dt> I just don't know if /etc/default/grub gets changed with SW updates.
<ttoine> I use the save option too, very usefull. Altough, it will not load the latest Lowlatency if there is an update
<len-dt> There are some other options in there as well. Not sure how they work though.
<ttoine> len-dt, if grub is updated, and the file is not the original, there is a list of choice like (keep modifications / put the original again / etc.)
<ttoine> zequence, https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Grub2
<len-dt> I think it is also possible to add a file to /etc/grub.d that points at a different file.
<ttoine> by default, grub2 is setup so the menu is not available if only ubuntu is detected. But it will show if several Linux distros are detected, or if other system like Windows are detected. The way to show the menu if there is only Ubuntu is to press the shift key at startup, if my memory is good
<len-dt> Yes, that sounds right.
<ttoine> len-dt, or perhaps to put different rules in a file in /etc/grub.d
<len-dt> ttoine, if we add a file there will be no upgrade issues but if we change one there may be.
<ttoine> would it be difficult to setup grub so there would be a choice like "latest generic" and "latest lowlatency", and remember the default choice 
<ttoine> ?
<ttoine> the better is to add a file in /etc/grub.d, for sure.
<len-dt> I don't think any of us are grub gurus here
<persia> I think that it makes sense for someone from here, someone from the server team, and someone from the kernel team to set up a chat with cjwatson to find the right solution.
<persia> So the user can pick between sensible options for their kernel, based on whichever they have installed.
<ttoine> have a look at /etc/grub.d/README , perhaps we should jsut create an entry at the top. And then, change the default grub setup to "save latest choice"
<ttoine> len-dt, of course we are not gurus
 * len-dt has a sore brain just thinking about it.
<len-dt> I am going to have to choose 1 or two things to do this cycle and ignore all else I think.
<ttoine> hum, perhaps persia is right. But would it be possible to chat with kernel team and server team, without being a guru ?
<ttoine> someone like me, for example ?
<len-dt> :)
<len-dt> I think knowing what you want. Say make a mockup listing of what you want our menu to look like.
<ttoine> the same, but instead having only default ubuntu, having a new line with lowlatency ubuntu
<ttoine> and the possibility to save the choice
<len-dt> Ubuntu  lowlatency
<len-dt> ubuntu
<len-dt> then extra like they have now (expert I think)
<len-dt> I think for US lowlatency should be first.
<len-dt> I don't know if the word generic needs to be there.
<ttoine> yes. but as only audio users may be interested by this choice, and not at all startup if they use a laptop on battery, it would be good to have the save option
<ttoine> no ?
<len-dt> I was assuming save would be set. I do not know if the order changes with the saev setting or the second one may get high light
<ttoine> len-dt, and what about -rt kernel ? perhaps it would be good to ask grub to show a menu entry for every kernel family ?
<len-dt> Sort of anything other than generic should have a label then
<len-dt> And the one shown should be the latest.
<len-dt> (or the last used? don't know if that is possible)
<ttoine> len-dt, the order don't change for me, whatever is my choice. with the current grub (12.04 and 12.10 are very similar) there is just a line Ubuntu, and a line "older ubuntu" is highlighted as default saved choice
<len-dt> That works.
<ttoine> if I click on older ubuntu, I have the complete list all kernel
<ttoine> and the latest I used is highlighted
<len-dt> I think older has been changed to "expert"
<ttoine> not in vanilla ubuntu
<ttoine> wow... 2am here, I must go to sleep. sorry to have to end the chat
<len-dt> In our case that is probably not the best wording.
<persia> ttoine: You're perfectly qualified to talk to other teams: the key is (as len-dt says) to be sure of what you want: the server team probably has similar requirements (and some of them have reason to use low-latency also).
<ttoine> I don't have the time now
<len-dt> have a great night
<len-dt> I have to get a meal ready for my kids.
<persia> The tricky bit is that the postinst for *any* kernel wants to tell grub it provided a new kernel, which makes it tricky to "save last", because the most recently booted kernel may not actually be the one the user should boot into next time.
<persia> ttoine: Just responding to "like me?": no pressure implied.
<ttoine> but len-dt or persia, can you just write something on the blueprints about that (whiteboard) so we can chat about that and confirm it, before I start chatting with kernel team ?
 * persia doesn't have a clear idea of the requirements
<len-dt> I will add an item
<persia> len-dt: Thanks
<ttoine> thanks
<len-dt> persia, we are talking about requirements just now just that we should discuss it
<ttoine> oh, and "good morning/afternoon/evening"
<len-dt> *are not
<persia> Oh, heh
<len-dt> ScottL, I sent email to the list you may like to read.
<ScottL> i shall read it :)
<ScottL> i'm trying the multi-head stuff in vanilla now
<len-dt> The email tells what I found.
<ScottL> oh!
<ScottL> ack, i was tyring to get this to work quickly before reading the email and i failed horribly
<ScottL> reading email now
<ScottL> i defintely agree with defining use cases
<len-dt> ScottL, it pretty much just works... so long as you like the way it works
 * ScottL cannot stress that enough across the board :P
<ScottL> len-dt: good description!
<len-dt> ScottL, I didn't confirm that they are using different workspaces for each display.
<len-dt> I may test that when the battery is charged.
<ScottL> huh, i could not make the monitors side by side, i had to put one over the other
<ScottL> this is probably a function of my video card (which is ATI gpu built into the board)
<ScottL> it maxes out at 1600x1600 and two widescreen monitors way exceed 1600 ;)
<len-dt> I am using a netbook with intel chipset
<len-dt> That says something about three displays. though that would probably mean more than one GPU
<len-dt> Anyway gotta run and get supper ready.
<ScottL> or SLI video cards, or the triple-matrix thingie
<ScottL> right, len-dt , i gotta attend to the kids too
<zequence> Nice of ttoine to get busy with the GRUB thing
<ttoine> hi
<len-dt> zequence, just a comment, I don't know if we will find a better menu editor.
<len-dt> There seems to be a move away from main menus, certainly in unity, but also in Gnome3... but at a much slower pace.
<len-dt> I think we need to have an understanding of what failed for the user (and why they did not file a bug)
<len-dt> it seemed to me they where worried about not being able to set up their menu in the order they wanted
<len-dt> that is perhaps more than can be expected from a small utility like that. It also does not have the ability to place custom app starters in a submenu of the users choosing.
<len-dt> I suspect we would end up having to create our own application to overcome these problems.
<scott-work> len-dt: are you speaking about ala carte ?
<zequence> len-dt: As of now, I have no idea about how to edit menus for XFCE. But, if someone wants to be able to, I'll want to see about if and how it is possible, and see if we are making it possible, etc
<zequence> And that's pretty much as much as I have thought about that yet
<ttoine> zequence, alacarte don't work with xfce ?
<zequence> zequence: I haven't tried yet. I think it does, but maybe not as expected
<zequence> If someone wants to find out, that person could take over that workitem
<zequence> I don't need to know myself
<zequence> I will find out only if I do that workitem
<zequence> This is the good thing about workitems
<zequence> We all can see what needs to be done
<zequence> But, only one person needs to do each workitem
<ttoine> zequence, ok, I will test Alacarte and tell you
<zequence> So, we save time, by not having to talk about everything. We just put up workitems, and do them, until we need help with something
<zequence> This is also what makes us able to work independently
<zequence> hehe, I seem to have addressed myself there..
<zequence> ttoine: It's great seeing a new name among the workitems
<ttoine> zequence, I know that I can do it alone, report it, etc.
<ttoine> for most of item, I am not skilled enough in development
<ttoine> and a lot of things are still moving on workitems at the moment. It will be easier for everybody when all will be fixed
<ttoine> not fixed. stable
<zequence> ttoine: I try to think more in the direction of interests. People have different interests, so they will choose different blueprints and workitems
<zequence> ..and there is room for all kinds of blueprints and workitems, for all skill levels
<scott-work> i have found ala carte to work fairly well, even with xubuntu i believe
<ttoine> scott-work, me too. but we can check again.
<scott-work> ttoine: i'm very glad you are helping ubuntu studio again
<micahg> if anyone has time, the ISOs are broke, I probably won't be able to have a look until some time next week
<ttoine> scott-work, I am very glad too
<zequence> scott-work: So, if Blender is breaking the ISO, should we remove it from the seeds until it's fixed?
<zequence> As it seemed, python 3.3 is causing mayhem
<zequence> And it's not imported from Debian
<zequence> While Blender is
<scott-work> i'm not sure blender is breaking it actually, i looked at blender in launchpad and it seemed to be building correctly, i'll dig more into the build fail
<len-dt> scott-work, alacart works fine. It does what it does with no problems. it is just that some users expect more :)
<scott-work> what else would they want?
<len-dt> zequence, ^^^
 * scott-work really doesn't understand how else others might expect it to perform
<len-dt> well the short comings are that it does not seem to allow formatting a menu or submenu.
<len-dt> and if the user adds an item it will only show up in "other" and can not be moved from there.
<len-dt> When alacart makes an app starter for the user, it ends up in ~/.local/share/applications and alacart puts a set of lines in there that assigns anything found in that directory to other.
<len-dt> The purpose of alacart seems to be to be able to move an item from one submenu to another, or to create a custom starter.
<len-dt> The custom starters do not have a category tag either.
<len-dt> scott-work, My personal attitude is that the user should leave the main menu alone unless they know enough to hand edit the menu overlay in their home directory. The better place would really be in the panel to do custom stuff.
<scott-work> ah, that explains it, thank you len-dt 
<len-dt> scott-work, in some ways I would prefer the user to have to install something like alacart on their own so that if they mess up their menu.... we don't have to help them trouble shoot it :)
<scott-work> hehe, that is a good point
<jta> scott-work: what version did you build?  Don't build the SVN daily...build the offical release version...
<jta> 2.64 is the current official release
<jta> they just added py3.3 and are working out the cmake settings
<jta> only grab svn if you are a dev or want bleeding edge features...like there is the new bevel/chamfer code being added as we speak
<jta> actually 2.64a
<jta> scott-work: http://www.blender.org/download/source-code/
<jta> scott-work: blender devs are at a bcon level where several things have been merged so they are fixing what that has broken...
<scott-work> jta: 2.64a is available from a ppa which is what i installed
<scott-work> i hope to play around with it this weekend, kinda go through the work flow i already developed with kdenlive
<jta> 2.64a shouldn't require py3.3...iirc
<jta> the new 2.65 will use py3.3
<jta> scott-work: just remember in the VSE where the mouse cursor is effects a lot of things...like when you add a clip where on the timeline it shows up, and when you use keyboard shortcuts, if the mouse is over the wrong area of the editor, you have different shortcuts
<jta> i should say mouse pointer...the "cursor" is what blender calls the current frame marker bar
<scott-work> right, it has changed quite a bit from 2.49 ;)
<jta> check out Olson's NLA vid tutorial, it works in conjunction with the VSE  http://getblended.org/2012/07/absolute-basics-of-the-nla-editor/
<jta> blender cookie has the best getting started series of videos, I don't recall if there is a VSE section...
<jta> I have some material I am preparing for a class but it's not ready for general consumption yet...
<jta> scott-work: http://cgcookie.com/blender/get-started-with-blender/  it's a tad dated but it's good none the less
<jta> scott-work: if you search for video tutorials...some are labeled VSE, some don't mention the acronym, they just say sequence editor...
<jta> so search on sequence editor also
<jta> these tips should save you quite a bit of time...and remember the location of the mouse pointer makes a difference on the hotkeys and your right click to select things usually...
<jta> scott-work: http://blendervse.wordpress.com/ is also a good place for info on the VSE...
<jta> ok, enuf spam, lol...
<scott-work> jta: no, no. that is great, i will defintely look over these pages this weekend
<jta> #blender for general help questions...some of the regulars know the VSE also...and I usually hang out in there...
<scott-work> one thing i really haven't even touched is the 3d modeling aspect of blender, actually :P
<jta> well with the compositing and tracking features, that's way fun to overlay 3d onto live action video....you will for sure get bitten by the bug, lol...
<jta> ok, going afk for a bit...
<scott-work> long day for me and i'm going home now
#ubuntustudio-devel 2012-11-10
<ttoine> hi
<ttoine> zequence, so you set my first job with editing menu tool to done ?
<smartboyhw> ttoine, eh where is that tool?
<ttoine> apt-get install alacarte
<smartboyhw> ttoine, aren't that included in the live images?
<ttoine> smartboyhw, perhaps, but not installed because we had user complain
<smartboyhw> ttoine, eh I just reinstalled my Studio 12.10 and i have that....let me see
<smartboyhw> ttoine, ah I know why now...Does that user use 12.04.1?
<ttoine> smartboyhw, so ? alacarte is in Studio 12.10 ?
<smartboyhw> ttoine, yes:P
<ttoine> smartboyhw, I don't know
<ttoine> so alacarte is not in 12.04 ?
<smartboyhw> ttoine, look at here. It's not in 12.04
<smartboyhw> http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/ubuntustudio/releases/12.04.1/release/ubuntustudio-12.04.1-dvd-amd64.manifest
<smartboyhw> ttoine, yet though 
<smartboyhw> http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/ubuntustudio/releases/12.10/release/ubuntustudio-12.10-dvd-amd64.manifest
<smartboyhw> It is included in 12.10
<ttoine> ok
<smartboyhw> ttoine, probably you will have to SRU that to 12.04
<ttoine> so perhaps it was a 12.04 user, yes. The aim was to check too that alacarte works well
<ttoine> works well in XFCE, I mean
<ttoine> smartboyhw, would it be possible to add it to default install for 12.04.2? (if there will be 12.04.2, of course)
<smartboyhw> ttoine, yes. But then you either backport or SRU it
<ttoine> ok. but it will not be ;-)
<persia> Um, we really don't want to add stuff to the default install in an SRU, if we can avoid it.
<persia> And backporting the metas is just raw madness, because it means that we'll have different sets of users on the same release with different sets of software.
<persia> The rationale for not adding stuff is that the behaviour of adding a recommendation to a metapackage in an update depends on the tool used to perform the upgrade, so may not actually do what we want.
<smartboyhw> Yeah I do agree
<smartboyhw> ttoine, just tell that user to install 12.10
<persia> Setting something as a dependency of a metapackage forces install for some tools, but will cause other tools to refuse to apply the update, which may cause users to not be able to confidently update anything else.
<persia> Rather, just tell that user to install alacarte: it's present in 12.04, just not installed by default.
<persia> Whether a user upgrades or not is a complex issue, but we should assume that nearly every user has some extra packages or has removed some packages from the default install.
 * persia bzr up's ubiquity
<smartboyhw> persia, where is it stored, that is MOST important
<persia> It's not, precisely :)  xnox is explaining.
<smartboyhw> LOL
<astraljava> If user is missing alacarte only, then why is installing it a solution to the problem?
<astraljava> not a solution*
<persia> smartboyhw: Hint: (i) is the current bug: we need to change ubuntustudio-icon-theme
<smartboyhw> persia, yeah I do think
<smartboyhw> so
<ttoine> persia, why ?
<persia> ttoine: ubiquity branding.
<persia> It's confusing because we're chatting in two channels.
<ttoine> ok
<smartboyhw> ttoine, to join full discussion join #ubuntu-installer
<ttoine> no no
<ttoine> I just didn't understand why you spoke about that here
<persia> Because I was away too long, and got asked to be quiet there: I need to commit a few things to ubiquity to regain credibility :)
<smartboyhw> persia, LOL
<smartboyhw> persia, you sure? In ubuntustudio-icon-theme I saw only a debian directory and in it only has five files...
<persia> smartboyhw: Right: we need to provide the distribution-logo logo (or at least it's definition).
<smartboyhw> !?
<persia> When my ubiquity branch is up-to-date, I can tell you more.
<smartboyhw> LOL
<persia> Right.  The file "distributor-logo" in the icon path sets the icon shown there.
<persia> Right now we probably depend on some xubuntu icon package that provides that.
<persia> We'd need to provide something different, which might mean splitting/forking the relevant xubuntu icon package.
<persia> I don't have a current raring install, but if you do, check which package provides the distributor-logo now, and that gives us a good path to find the thing to change.
<smartboyhw> persia, ubuntustudio-look
<smartboyhw> It has a distributor-logl.svg
<persia> Provides distributor-logo?
<smartboyhw> *-logo.svg
<persia> Does any other package provide a distributor-logo file?
<persia> Maybe we're just running into a cache order issue.
<smartboyhw> persia, not so I think
<smartboyhw> Ah distributor-logo.png actually in ubuntustudio-look
<persia> Do you have a live image that boots with the wrong icon available?
<smartboyhw> persia, simple. The 12.10 live image and the 12.04.1 live image
<smartboyhw> They use the Xubuntu logo
<persia> What happens if you run `find /usr/share -name distributor-logo* -print` in such an image?
<smartboyhw> Oh wait then
<smartboyhw> Ah persia I saw the problem. It uses the elementary-xfce distributor-logo's but they are the Xubuntu ones
<smartboyhw> Hmm we should then probably create a elementary-studio thing
<persia> Right.  So we need to either fork the icon themes, or split them differently so that the distributor-logo isn't in that package, but in the packages that depend upon it.
<persia> I think it would be better for ubuntustudio-look to provide that one file, and depend on elementary-xfce.
<persia> And for there to be a xubuntu-look package that also depended on elementary-xfce.
<persia> Unless you think we want to maintain a completely separate icon theme.
<smartboyhw> persia, no.1 should we say that ubuntustudio-look conflicts xubuntu-look?
<persia> Yes, two packages that provide the same file must conflict.
<smartboyhw> persia, OK I added xubuntu-artwork and xubuntu-icon-theme to conflct
<persia> Um, that's not enough.
<persia> You also need to make sure those packages aren't being pulled by default.
<persia> And I thought you said that the package providing the offending file was elementary-xfce
<persia> So you need to work with the xubuntu team to ensure that there is an agreed plan of where that file belongs.
<persia> Otherwise the issue doesn't go away.
<smartboyhw> persia, hmm 1. There is no elementary-xfce package
<smartboyhw> They just include it in xubuntu-artwork package
<persia> Ah, OK.
<persia> So then there *should* be an elementary-xfce package that doesn't include xubuntu-specific stuff if we want to share.
<smartboyhw> persia, OK then
<smartboyhw> PING knome 
<persia> So that xubuntu-artwork and ubuntustudio-look could depend upon it.
<persia> But this can only happen if there is consensus with the xubuntu team: if they need the current structure for some reason, we need a different icon theme.
<smartboyhw> yeah
<persia> (which could be a trivial fork, with just that logo changed)
<persia> *or* we need a way to replace *just that file* in that package sanely, which may be possible with close coordination.
<smartboyhw> persia, so "aren't being pulled by default" I just add xubuntu-artwork and xubuntu-icon-theme to "Replaces:" I think
<persia> No, that's a seed-level thing.
<smartboyhw> persia, uh 
<persia> Better than Conflicts: is Breaks:+Replaces:, but first we have to know the right version numbers.
<smartboyhw> Actually I rather ubuntustudio-look depends on ubuntustudio-icon-theme
<persia> Who maintains that icon theme?  Do you have the extra time?
<persia> Or do you mean as a lightweight package just providing the logo, and in turn depending on a shared theme?
<smartboyhw> persia, 1. I am not even a member of the dev team 
<smartboyhw> and 2. ubuntustudio-icon-theme is just a placeholder to depend on elementary-icon-theme
<persia> I like -look depending on -icon-theme also, as long as -icon-theme stays without significant content.
<persia> But I think we'll both do better to discuss this when the sun is on our side of the world :)
<smartboyhw> persia, I think ubuntustudio-icon-theme is abolished... Can't seem to find it in the 12.10 live image manifest
<smartboyhw> persia, the sun is NOT on my side of the world it is 11:00 PM
<persia> rmadison says it's in the archive.
<smartboyhw> persia, yeah tell me it is in http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/ubuntustudio/releases/12.10/release/ubuntustudio-12.10-dvd-amd64.manifest
<persia> Right: that's why I suggested we continue the conversation later: I'm an hour east of you.
<smartboyhw> persia, ah alright:D
<knome> smartboyhw, what?
<persia> I believe you it's not in the image: I'm just saying it's in the archive, so it's not gone, just not being used.
<smartboyhw> knome, we still have that "Xubuntu image is used when auto-partitioning in ubiquity in Ubuntu Studio live image"
<persia> knome: We're tired, but briefly, there are two packages providing distributor-logo on the ubuntustudio images, and so we'd like to have a plan to split the xubuntu-artwork package differently so that each flavour can ship a different logo and still share most of the rest of the icons.
<smartboyhw> persia, :D
 * smartboyhw is starting to not understand which package should he report a bug at
<knome> smartboyhw, persia: you might want to talk with mr_pouit who knows more of the packaging
<smartboyhw> OK
<persia> We probably do.  WHat are best days/times to catch him?
<knome> i'm not sure why ubuntu studio is directly depending on xubuntu artwork either; they do share some stuff and they base the work on our stuff, but it's still completely different
<persia> Someone got lazy :)
<smartboyhw> and the packages got hooked
<knome> he's GMT+1
<smartboyhw> knome, persia I found xubuntu-icon-theme in the 12.10 live image manifest
<persia> Does he usually hang around days or evenings, his time?
<smartboyhw> Now that's a problem
<knome> persia, day/eveningish, not too late usually
<persia> knome: Thanks.  We'll try to catch him then.
<persia> smartboyhw: Ping me in the morning, and we'll track down precisely where the bug should be filed.  If we're lucky, we'll have a plan by the time mr_pouit shows up.
<smartboyhw> persia, sorry I am only on at night. School for me
<persia> Then when you're done with school.
<smartboyhw> persia, ok
<smartboyhw> holefully
<persia> (Sundays too?  That's a lot of school!!!)
<smartboyhw> persia, tmr I have a fencing competition:P
<persia> Ah, good luck.
<knome> persia, another person you might have some luck with too (though probably not how it's split) is micah
<knome> persia, not sure the timezones work any better for you though
<persia> Yeah, it's the precise nature of what is split where and why that needs explanation.  We can do email if timing doesn't work.
<smartboyhw> Oops actually ubuntustudio-lightdm-theme and ubuntustudio-desktop depends on xubuntu-icon-theme
<persia> knome: The key is to dig through and figure out what we want to share and what we want to have separate, and how the current package split matches that.  I expect we'll ask for a slightly different split, but I don't have enough information to be sure yet.
<knome> persia, what's the actual problem for you? the icon theme?
 * persia calls it a night
<knome> oh right. sleep tight and see you later
<persia> knome: The content of the icon cache at install time, at least.  Potentially a couple other namespace clashes, but I don't know enough to say for sure right now.
<smartboyhw> yeah IDK why but then UbuntuStudio LightDm Theme depends on xubuntu-icon-theme
<smartboyhw> Grr
<knome> smartboyhw, probably because it needs some icons from it.
<smartboyhw> knome, no I think. Maybe because of the wallpaper but then it is also included in ubuntustudio-look
<knome> persia, right
<knome> xubuntu-icon-theme doesn't have any wallpapers in it
<knome> if the lightdm theme is ripped off of xubuntu, the top panel in lightdm has some icons, and i believe those are the reason why you are depending on the xubuntu icon theme
<smartboyhw> knome, yeah maybe
<smartboyhw> knome, not maybe now. It is true (from the changelogs)
<smartboyhw> The icon theme and icon = Greybird
<smartboyhw> so.....
<knome> yes
<smartboyhw> God this problem is so complicated 
<knome> it is not.
<smartboyhw> Anyways
<smartboyhw> Bug reported:
<smartboyhw> Bug 1077372
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1077372 in ubuntustudio-look (Ubuntu) "When installing Ubuntu Studio, the logo in the auto-paritioning step is wrong" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1077372
<len-dt> smartboyhw, Just read the above. We need an icon theme anyway.
<smartboyhw> len-dt, oh ok
<smartboyhw> Let's create one then!
<len-dt> We have a set of icons that are ours we need to put somewhere.
<smartboyhw> OK
<len-dt> we need to create some more icons yet too.
<len-dt> this is something we started (just barely) last cycle.
<smartboyhw> Oh?
<len-dt> We have a number of menu items that are ours that are using other peoples icons.
<len-dt> Those icons may vanish if we no loner use those packages or they change the name of those icons in future releases.
<len-dt> There is a utility for making a default-settings package that helps setting up an icon theme (and other things which we should not use) That would probably be helpful.
<smartboyhw> len-dt, where is that utilty?
<len-dt> let me look...
<len-dt> ubuntu-defaults-builder maybe?
<smartboyhw> len-dt, we alerady have a -default-settings you want to overwrite the whole thing?
<len-dt> No, tyhe idea would be to use it to create n icon theme in /usr/share/icons
<smartboyhw> len-dt, that's another package...
<len-dt> then just grab that directory and either create a new meta just for that or add it to look
<smartboyhw> Ooh
<len-dt> There is lots of stuff in there we don't want at all too.
<len-dt> There is actually a package called ubuntustudio-icon-theme too... probably from 11.10
<smartboyhw> len-dt, my suggestion: Copy the xubuntu-icon-theme package code, delete those Xubuntu images and replace them with ours, then release it as ubuntustudio-icon-theme, then add it to the meta, then (yes) ditch xubuntu-icon-theme from dependency of xubuntu-lightdm-theme and replace with ubuntustudio-lightdm-theme
<smartboyhw> len-dt, actually ubuntustudio-icon-theme isn't in the 12.10 live images
<len-dt> No it would have been in 11.10 only as a transitional package.
<smartboyhw> len-dt, yes as a transitional.
<smartboyhw> So we need to rewrite the WHOLE thing
<len-dt> There is also a package called icontool.
<len-dt> I would not replace xubuntu package.
<len-dt> At least not without looking at it.
<len-dt> We depend on too many things from xubuntu that may change from release to release.
<smartboyhw> len-dt, yeah we just replace those things that shouldn't be in our ISO (e.g. their distributor-logo, which caused ubiquity to produce a Xubuntu image during a Studio install)
<len-dt> It is better to have our icon theme depend on theirs.
<smartboyhw> len-dt, yes:D
<len-dt> We don't have to "replace" icons, just add our own 
<smartboyhw> len-dt, at least the distributor-logo.....
<len-dt> The icon tree starts at one theme and looks till it finds a name if it doesn't it goes down one level and tries again.
<len-dt> It finally ends up at hi-color which everything depends on.
<len-dt> So what I am saying is that we do not need to remove anything from the xubuntu version, just add the same filename to ours and that is what will be used.
<smartboyhw> yeah
<smartboyhw> len-dt, so you are gonna work on it?
<len-dt> Maybe that is a good thing for me to do. I have been sort of at loose ends as to what I wanted to work on.
<smartboyhw> len-dt, :D
<len-dt> I am not a good artist, but I can at least set up the frame work so that when we get good icons we can just drop them in.
 * len-dt made the icon for the photography menu.
<smartboyhw> len-dt, wow
<smartboyhw> len-dt, I am gonna assign that bug to you then
<len-dt> I will also do some work on dual headedness. I put a second video card into my system last night.
<smartboyhw> Why must it BE a team????/
<len-dt> No worries... punch in te bug number again?
<smartboyhw> Bug 1077372
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1077372 in ubuntustudio-look (Ubuntu) "When installing Ubuntu Studio, the logo in the auto-paritioning step is wrong" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1077372
<smartboyhw> And strangely Launchpad can't even search for the Ubuntu Studio dev team
<smartboyhw> to be the assignee
<len-dt> there refresh and be happy
 * len-dt is now assigned
<smartboyhw> len-dt, yeah
<smartboyhw> len-dt, add an workitem to the blueprint so EVERYONE can see
<len-dt> smartboyhw, The work item on the BP should be worded different.
<len-dt> Something about creating a theme
<len-dt> *icon theme
<smartboyhw> len-dt, like "Create an icon theme for Ubuntu Studio:
<len-dt> Ya, do you have a link handy for the PB?
<smartboyhw> len-dt, no:P
<smartboyhw> Wait though
<smartboyhw> https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/topic-r-flavor-ubuntustudio
<smartboyhw> Wait broken link
<smartboyhw> https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/topic-raring-flavor-ubuntustudio
<smartboyhw> This one:P
<smartboyhw> len-dt, the second link
<smartboyhw> BTW it seems zequence's account is still not merged:P
<len-dt> No prob, I will put in artwork
<smartboyhw> len-dt, :D
<smartboyhw> Bye gotcha sleep (12:30 AM with fencing competition tmr)
<zequence> ttoine: I went through the alternatives for editing the XFCE menu
<zequence> ttoine: I found different tools for editing menus, but none for XFCE (at least recent ones)
<zequence> ttoine: And, I added a new user doc paget about the Ubuntu Studio Desktop
<knome> zequence, menulibre
<zequence> knome: I checked it out
<zequence> Same as all the others
<knome> zequence, it is recent, but works with xfce well
<zequence> It doesn't see the XFCE menu structure
<zequence> Or, at least not the custom one
<knome> zequence, maybe you don't have a specific configuration file attribute
<knome> zequence, alacarte started working much better after that too
<knome> zequence, you probably should talk with sean (bluesabre), he's the author
<knome> zequence, we're migrating to that in 13.04 if at all possible
<knome> zequence, (sean is also a xubuntu developer)
<knome> anyway, g2g
<knome> see you later
<zequence> knome: Ok, thanks
<zequence> ttoine: I saw you added some text on the whiteboard for user docs on HW support. There's a link to a page I created about this a few months back https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuStudio/SupportedHardware
<zequence> ttoine: Please do check it out
<zequence> ttoine: You'll notice a lot of what you suggest is on that page already
<zequence> ttoine: It is named a "resource", as it is a possible example (or a bad example) on how to create the Hardware Support page
<Len-nb> zequence, why would xfce be different in menuing?
<Len-nb> alacarte works fine so far as it tries to.
<Len-nb> But xfce uses the standard open desktop stuff. Alacart sees the right menu as defined by the session
<Len-nb> It is just that users expect more...
<zequence> Len-nb: I have no problem with alacarte. It's not a XFCE menu editor
<zequence> You can use it to create starters
<zequence> Not XFCE menus
<Len-nb> But it doesn't have to be
<zequence> Who said it had to be?
<zequence> I only asked the question was there a XFCE menu editor around
<Len-nb> It seems to make xfce menus ok
<zequence> It doesn't do anything with the XFCE menu
<Len-nb> xfce uses the open desktop standarde
<zequence> Yes, for the .desktop files
<Len-nb> for .menu files too
<zequence> Len-nb: Ok, so if you know a way to edit the XFCE menu with an editor, please do tell.
<Len-nb> alacarte creates a standard menu overlay in .config/menus
<Len-nb> when xfce starts up it finds it there and merges it with the main menu
<Len-nb> It is not there to create new menus, but the make a pathc to the system menu
<Len-nb> *patch
<Len-nb> the patch is merged real time
<zequence> Len-nb: The XFCE menu won't see alacarte created menus
<Len-nb> Works here
<zequence> Len-nb: Menus that you created with alacarte?
<Len-nb> Changes I did
<Len-nb> It is not a menu creator, but a patcher
<zequence> Len-nb: Again, the only question I had about this was if there was a menu editor for the XFCE menu
<zequence> And I have so far not found one
<zequence> What alacarte can do is to me besides that point
<zequence> As long as it's not editing the XFCE menu, as you see it
<Len-nb> Ok, if I start alacarte up and uncheck the phoyography menu. it goes away on the main menu for that user.
<Len-nb> The xfce main menu for that user has been changed/edited.
<zequence> Len-nb: I suspect there is something different about my user files, since I don't see a Photography section in alacarte
<Len-nb> 12.10 or 12.04?
<zequence> 12.10
<zequence> I also have Gnome3 installed
<Len-nb> let me go downstairs.
<zequence> I really need to start keeping very clean Ubuntu Studio releases installed
<len-dt> I acn see photography there too in 12.10
<len-dt> *can
<zequence> I don't see any of the XFCE menu items
<zequence> And in the XFCE menu, I don't see some of the alacarte menus
<len-dt> Even logged in an xfce session?
<zequence> I need to recheck a couple of things while logged into XFCE, but to do this right, I'll do some VB installs
<len-dt> alacart would create different menu patches for different sessions (I think).
<zequence> Would be a smart practice to start keeping snapshots of the install. Be it virtual or not
<len-dt> So alacarte would allow you to have a different menu for xfce sessions and gnome2 sessions for example.
<len-dt> BRB
<zequence> Len-nb: For the Ubuntu Studio icons, we should create a Ubuntu Studio icon theme that inherits the icon theme in use
<len-dt> Just checked... on my 12.04 machine the change happened immediately, but on 12.10 I had to logout and in
<len-dt> That may be because that is the first time I used alacarte on here though.
<len-dt> I'm not happy with the "Restore System Configuration" button in alacarte though. It leaves a menu stub around.
<len-dt> xfce4.10 behaves differently than 4.8
<len-dt> zequence, it seems xfce4.10 does not reread the menu files every time the main menu is selected, xfce4.8 does.
<len-dt> That is, since 12.10, after alacarte has been used to change a menu, the user must log out and then in to see changes.
<len-dt> This probably makes the main menu response quicker.
<len-dt> I think I will give up on using my old S3trio as a second video card. Xorg seems to have problems with it. The device driver doesn't initialize the card... it relies on the bios to do that at boot... which means my other card does not get initialized. A USB adaptor seems the way to go.
<len-dt> Wow, looking at USB2VGA adaptors and actually see that the manufacture's page list Linux support. Wish the audio ones did too.
<zequence> Len-nb: I guess you don't have PCI-E slots on that MB. Would only cost you something like 30$ to get a new card
<zequence> ..I imagine
<ttoine> zequence, I was just testing Sound Converter, and I see that the version in Ubuntu is old and bugged
<ttoine> I did a bug report. but would it be possible to update with the current version (the project is on Launchpad) ?
#ubuntustudio-devel 2012-11-11
<ttoine> bug 1077508
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1077508 in soundconverter (Ubuntu) "2.0.1 is bugged, update to 2.0.4" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1077508
<Len-nb> zequence, dumb question, right now most of our icons are in the -settings package.
<Len-nb> it would make sense to me though that a set of icons should be in the -look package.
<Len-nb> However... our only purpose for an icon set is to fill out places we have added such as submenus which are defined in the setting package.
<zequence> Len-nb: We should create a proper icon theme, and a new package for it. Then have it inherit the icons from the other theme. I think you can even have it inherit icons from a third theme, if the second is not available
<Len-nb> Our icon theme now goes several levels down
<Len-nb> We are not trying to make a theme really, but cover places where there are no icons now.
<zequence> I think one of the problems with the custom menu all along has been it being custom
<zequence> The menu is custom. The icons is custom
<zequence> It's being developed as if it was an application in itself
<zequence> Because there's no workflow application in its place
<Len-nb> In my opinion. The reason for developing a custom menu is because the workflows tend to end up with unmanageable submenus with the list of apps flowing off the screen
<Len-nb> So the custom menu is to make things like "multi-media" manageable.
<Len-nb> zequence, really what I am saying is that I feel the "standard" main menu is broken. The Categories spec in open desktops is broken or under used.
<Len-nb> I think this is part of the reason things like unity have shown up.
<Len-nb> the main menu is a mess.
<zequence> What Unity, Gnome3, Windows 8 and the Launchpad in OS X does is not solve the problem of a broken menu, but takes a step into the future, by introducing a new way to find applications
<Len-nb> Anyway, all that aside, there is an icon theme package already. It is almost empty having only the debian directory. I guess it would make sense to use that.
<zequence> I was just looking at http://standards.freedesktop.org/menu-spec/latest/apa.html
<zequence> It's weird how Audio and Video must be lumped together
<Len-nb> For the average desktop it makes sense. there is not that much there
<Len-nb> for us that is almost the whole menu
<zequence> Len-nb: There's the additional categories here as well http://standards.freedesktop.org/menu-spec/latest/apas02.html
<Len-nb> There are actually a lot of standard categories that could be very useful, but because the standard main menu setup doesn't deal with it most appliaction devs don't use them.
<zequence> I think if we work according to the standards, and find good solutions, we could suggest changes in some areas upstream
<Len-nb> This is why we are stuck with customizing a menu, or dumping the main menu and customizing a launch panel
<zequence> heh, there's a "adult" category there
<Len-nb> Yes but the stock menu doesn't use it.
<Len-nb> any application that used it would end up in "other"
<zequence> I'm aware of that. But, if we do follow the standards, or at least have it as reference, once we come up with useful categorization that we feel work well with the standardizations, we could suggest changes upstream
<zequence> I've never felt comfortable with how the stock menu is categorized
<Len-nb> well if we start now.... maybe by version 20.10 :P
<Len-nb> upstream fixes to the main menu are a start.
<zequence> In the long run, I don't expect menus will be used as much in the future anyway
<zequence> Who knows
<Len-nb> but those changes would have to go upstream to each and every application we ship as well
<zequence> I would rather start thinking about developing workflow applications, like the panel
<Len-nb> Out of all our mixers I think there are two in the mixer category
<Len-nb> Yes that too
<zequence> Perhaps we should start adding changes for Desktop files in Debian packages then?
<zequence> I don't think it needs to go further upstream than that, as long as the changes aren't too radical
<Len-nb> the very best thing would be to start suppying patches to the application devs
<zequence> Yea. I've been talking about joining the Multimedia Team for a while now
<Len-nb> I think if we came up with an audio menu that the audio distros liked, and made just that one sub menu sort of standardized the devs would follow.
<Len-nb> I don't know our other workflows well enough to know if there are enough apps there to do the same there.
<zequence> The additional categories in http://standards.freedesktop.org/menu-spec/latest/apas02.html all have "related Categories", which sort of make all of the additional categories standard submenus
<zequence> If every desktop file has at least two categories, 1. the main category, 2. the sub category, it's possible to use the standard scheme and let all of the submenus just import by category
<zequence> I guess it's not possible to use %% || logic for adding starters to menu categories
<zequence> Cause, then you'd be able to do: Audio && Sequencer
<zequence> And only those Desktop files would end up in a submenu called Sequencers
<zequence> For the Dash in Gnome or Unity, this is not a problem, since you just search by the category itself, and you only get relevant hits
<zequence> I need to look more into how the menu behaves
<Len-nb> zequence, the only problem is that all of those submenus don't exist in standard main menus. The menu has to be customized to use them.
<zequence> Len-nb: It's not a problem if all the Debian packages include desktop files with correct standard categories
<zequence> Then custom menus aren't as custom
<Len-nb> It is possible to do and/or in the menu. Using keywords instead of symbols
<Len-nb> Yup, that would be nice.
<Len-nb> The standard gnome menu (and maybe kde) had some pretty good game subs, but xfce doesn't add those.
<Len-nb> I think maybe we need to work with the xfce team then.
<Len-nb> gnome 2 is gone anyway.
<zequence> gnome2 may be gone, but not the categories
<zequence> They are still used within both gnome-shell and Unity
<Len-nb> Ok, that makes sense.
<Len-nb> zequence, it would still be nice if xfce used them too... 
<zequence> Len-nb: Yea
<Len-nb> Anyway, I think my project this cycle is to do the icon theme. If we can get xfce to add some more to the stock menu they would be welcome to use those icons.
<Len-nb> We should probably add categories (sub) to all of our submenus.
<Len-nb> In all we should think in terms of making our menu what the stock menu should be.
<Len-nb> The only customization should be the main layout. Putting the important categories at the top.
<zequence> I like the sound of that
<Len-nb> It would be really nice if sub categories would only populate when there was more than one or two items otherwise the item would just show one level up. so if we have one mixer (for example) it shows in audio menu, if there are two or more they show in a submenu.
<Len-nb> That way a desktop with minimal audio SW wouldn't be overloaded with submenus.
<ttoine> hi
<zequence> ttoine: Hello
<zequence> ttoine: Seems my experiences with alacarte were quite different from others
<zequence> ttoine: I put your task done, cause I read it as if you were done with it. I also did some extra work on that, by trying out other options, and started a new doc page about it
<zequence> Seems the issue is not fully solved yet
<zequence> And there has been more discussion on the structure of the menu
<ttoine> ok
<zequence> ttoine: We're looking at following standards more. http://standards.freedesktop.org/menu-spec/latest/apa.html
<zequence> There are a bunch of "additional" categories to choose from as well
<ttoine> perhaps you should put a structure draft on a blueprint white board, so everybody can see that and give is opinion, even if he was not online for discussion
<zequence> ttoine: I think it's better to discuss thing on the mail list
<zequence> ttoine: We were talking about patching Debian packages making them have correct categories, so that our menu would not need as much custom work
<ttoine> ok
<ttoine> I hope this is not too complicated
<ttoine> zequence, does patching in debian allow having patch for US -R
<ttoine> ?
<zequence> ttoine: We'd patch packages in Debian and have them synced to Ubuntu R
<ttoine> ok
<zequence> Until then, I guess we can start thinking about how to structure the menu according to those categories
<zequence> ttoine: That is actually something you could do, if you like. It doesn't require much coding skills
<zequence> The menu has a format, which is a bit self-explanatory
<ttoine> and why not put that on a whiteboard ? I mean, when there is a change, everybody is notified
<zequence> Both me and Len-nb have been working on it
<zequence> ttoine: If you want to have a look, it's here /etc/xdg/xdg-ubuntustudio/menus/xfce-applications.menu
<zequence> ttoine: I just woke up :)
<ttoine> ok
<zequence> And we only discussed this before I went to sleep
<ttoine> zequence, what is your time reference ? (so I know when you are off)
<zequence> ttoine: I'm in Sweden, so about one hour later than you, right?
<zequence> I woke up a bit late today. But it's Sunday after all
<zequence> ttoine: The source package is ubuntustudio-default-settings
<zequence> I guess there's no big hurry with that though
<zequence> You have other interests too. I think the PR bit might be better to get working first :)
<knome> zequence, hey, you have some time?
<ttoine> zequence, yes, something like that. for me it's Paris time
<ttoine> zequence, yes, I think that setting the PR would be great. I am already skilled for that. for menu and package patching, I will have to learn
<zequence> knome: Sure
<smartboyhw> Oh I missed the conversation
<zequence> knome: I'll be away for a bit, but just PM me
<smartboyhw> Hey len-dt :D
<len-dt> morning...
<len-dt> I have the start of an icon theme done.
<len-dt> It only has one icon in it :)
<smartboyhw> len-dt, LOL
<len-dt> I think I have to have it released before I add the icon-theme to seeds.
<len-dt> But micah isn't around right now.
<smartboyhw> len-dt, yes you do or if not you get killed:P
<smartboyhw> I gained 1000 karma in a day!
<smartboyhw> Hmm weird Launchpad
<len-dt> I don't know if it matters too much because the old theme is empty and the depends don't hurt anything.
<smartboyhw> len-dt, yeah
<len-dt> Still it would be nice to have the new package available and install to a LIVE ISO and see if it fixes the install icon.
<smartboyhw> len-dt, ah......
<len-dt> RE: plymouth... I think I am going to do the email list vote for deciding if we should have the version number in the text version.
<len-dt> Does that make sense?
<len-dt> I have decided I don't really care that much one way or the other.
<len-dt> But micah would like a decision on that.
<len-dt> Then I will pull the commits out that put in what we have and redo it.
<smartboyhw> len-dt, OK good:D
<len-dt> smartboyhw, I have sent it.
<smartboyhw> len-dt, send what?
<len-dt> The vote email for above.
<smartboyhw> Ah ah ah
<smartboyhw> len-dt, replied:P
<len-dt> Thanks.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2013-11-04
<cub> g'day
<smartboyhw> Hello cub
<smartboyhw> Got to write sth in the bp soon
<cub> hi smartboyhw, running for council I see? :)
<smartboyhw> Sorry for not being available the past 3 weeks, too many tests
<cub> I haven't been around for some weeks either
<smartboyhw> cub: I don't have a high chance, I'm just trying. It isn't wrong to try:P
<cub> quite busy
<cub> smartboyhw, of course. If you'll make it though, will you have time?
<smartboyhw> cub: Yes. I shall have time.
<zequence> smartboyhw: If nothing else, people should become more and more aware of you being quite reliable and hard working, which is quite often the most important charasteristics to have
<smartboyhw> zequence: :)
<smartboyhw> zequence, cub: Which subjects do you guys study at high school?
<smartboyhw> (Just asking)
<cub> hmm I'm not sure what age high school was?
<cub> When I went to school we couldn't choose much until we were 16
<cub> before that it was just if we wanted to add another language besides English, and we could only choose French or German. :D
<knome> smartboyhw, few languages, math, physics, chemistry, psychology, philosophy
<cub> psychology knome? That would have been fun. We were only forced into Religion.
<knome> ah, religion too of course.
<knome> cub, yeah, in upper secondary
<knome> i think we had something like 4 courses of that (if you wanted)
<knome> i think one might've been obligatory
<cub> cool
<cub> I studied philosophy at university later on instead.
<cub> since we didn't get that in any school beforehand
<knome> mhm
<knome> there weren't too many philosophy courses... maybe 3 or 4, and again, one obligatory
<smartboyhw> Nobody study biology:(
<knome> ah, we did that as well
<knome> one obligatory..
<knome> you might sense the pattern here...
<smartboyhw> What I study are: Chinese, English, Maths (Core + M2, i.e. Algebra and calculus), Physics, Chemistry, Biology
<smartboyhw> Basically full science
<zequence> I majored in Music during High School. And, didn't much worry about other subjects, not even music mostly. I learned most of what I know from the city library
<zequence> It's faster
<zequence> Well, in some ways. Sometimes it's a lot faster if someone gives you a couple of hints, so you don't need to read through a whole shelf to find out a single idea
<smartboyhw> zequence: I learn via school library and bookstores instead
<zequence> I should perhaps mention it is always a good idea to get a degree..
<zequence> Not the same thing as studying to learn something
<cub> exactly, I read a lot in my days but have no degree to flash on my CV
<cub> It didn't matter that much before but nowadays I feel that every job is asking for some kind of a degree
<cub> so if you're going to learn, get a degree at the same time...or start your own business. :P
<cub> yay, I get to go to the Internetdagarna in Stockholm. Jono is keynote speaker.
<zequence> cub: Work related?
<cub> the rest of the day, yes. Incident management, so work is paying for the day
<cub> zequence, how's work going, weren't you going to a new interview?
<zequence> cub: No contracts signed yet, I'm afraid.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2013-11-05
<holstein> !text
<ubottu> To start your system in text-only mode append 'text' (without the quotes) to the kernel line in the grub menu. You can access the grub menu by pressing Esc (Grub legacy) or Shift (Grub2) during boot. For more info see https://help.ubuntu.com/community/BootOptions#Text%20Mode
<holstein> !tty
<ubottu> To get to the TTY terminals 1-6, use the keystroke ctrl + alt + F1-F6 respectively (Alt+F7 will get you back to your graphical login).  To change the resolution for your TTY, see https://help.ubuntu.com/community/ChangeTTYResolution
<holstein> !tty
<holstein> sorry..
<holstein> 21:53 < holstein> !text
<holstein> lol
<holstein> its been a long day..
<incisivejoshua> Hello. I'm interested in contributing. How can I help?
<zequence> incisivejoshua: Hi. In any way you like
<zequence> There's the technical side of things, coding, packaging, fixing bugs - that kind of thing (which is nor that hard, but takes some time to learn)
<zequence> then there's the less technical bits, testing, writing docs, PR, interacting with the community, etc
<zequence> incisivejoshua: Do you have any experience beforehand? (you absolutely don't need to have)
#ubuntustudio-devel 2013-11-07
<OvenWerks> zequence: It looks like we can remod -settings to set grub to "UbuntuStudio" again.
<zequence> OvenWerks: Did you make sure? If so, just do it.
<zequence> OvenWerks: firewire devices can be daisy chained. Not all will work. Don't know how common it is for devices to work/not work. 
<zequence> I know many do work, with ffado
<OvenWerks> zequence: I don't have a MB with the new bios to check it with. So I am less willing to try if there is not someone who can test it.
<OvenWerks> zequence: I don't know that much about FW stuff. I can't aford to buy some to try it out either. I do know, that getting sub ms latency with any IF takes some playing around with HW and bios settings. Hyperthreading pretty much forces 4ms or more. HW is moving away from good latency performance towards brutforce throughput. I also think there are getting to be more things that "borrow" cpu cycles without asking the OS... or even without the OS kn
<OvenWerks> PCI(e) slots are going away, FW ports have already gone away... Minimum latency with USB devices seems to be about 5ms anyway... internal audio is almost double (HDA). Kernel makes no difference for that.
<zequence> OvenWerks: I mean, did you look at the code changes for GRUB?
<OvenWerks> Not yet, I have been busy with life
<zequence> ..and all I was saying about firewire was that it's not the same as with ALSA. You just connect multiple devices in daisy chains, and in theory they should work as one card
<zequence> OvenWerks: That's why I'm askin, cause until someone makes sure, we don't know what was fixed
<OvenWerks> The problem Is too, that I don't know the how the new bios stuff works... so I will have to learn some. I will watch what kubuntu does.
<zequence> OvenWerks: I'm just worried they fixed the problem for Kubuntu, but not us
<OvenWerks> Well, I should be able to figure our that much.
<OvenWerks> gotta go get my son.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2013-11-09
<Noskcaj> Does anyone have time to fix the build of transcode on amd64? It's a case of patching three implicit declarations, shown at http://qa.debian.org/bls/packages/t/transcode.html
<Noskcaj> If you know C, this should be an easy fix
<Noskcaj> Has anyone (who knows C) got a few minutes to fix the transcode FTBFS? It's just a case of making a patch that fixes the three errors show at http://qa.debian.org/bls/packages/t/transcode.html
#ubuntustudio-devel 2014-11-07
<zequence> Time for Vivid planning. Though, the main goal is of course the next LTS. Will have some time next week (been busy with work for a few weeks).
<zequence> So, will go through the old bluescripts, and see what I can make of it.
<zequence> We still would need more developers, which is a stupid problem to have, and not do something about it.
<zequence> So, I hope I can be more active with that. We have lot's of time before the next LTS, but sooner is better.
 * zequence is holding two courses - Linux and Audacity. Promoting free software to the unemployed.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2014-11-08
<holstein> zequence: o/
<holstein> do you want to try and start having meetings?
<zequence> holstein: Nah, I think the mail list works fine for discussion and information spreading in between the devs
<zequence> Perhaps if there were more of us
<holstein> zequence: i would like to take a look at upstream xubuntu's structure, and try and emulate that
#ubuntustudio-devel 2014-11-09
<OvenWerks> holstein: for the most part we have been doing so, looking for new changes in xfce and xubuntu to add to ubuntustudio.
<OvenWerks> holstein: xubuntu was talking about having sort of a basic xubuntu meta that they would add to for the the main xubuntu. We were hoping to use that as well.
<OvenWerks> holstein: That is still the goal I think. I have been able to work on next to anything as I have no system at all to work with as my studio was flooded out and my computer is in storage.
<OvenWerks> holstein: this is my wife's computer. My netbook can not be reloaded because I can't see the boot screen on it and the last week or so the drive has started to show signs of giving up too :P
<OvenWerks> We have been promised new flooring/walls/ceiling by Christmas. So next year I should be able to be more active.
<OvenWerks> holstein: So we want to more than emulate xubuntu, we want to use it as is as a base. There may be more than one reason for doing so as xubuntu is following the trend of less menu by switching to wisker and dealing with that may help us have something that works ok with what menu is left in gnome and unity. That is, we seem to need to rethink our menuing anyway to work with the lack of menu facilties in other DEs.
<OvenWerks> So ubuntustudio on your phone/tablet may end up being a reality as DEs move that way and phones/tablets become smarter/faster.
<OvenWerks> It appears that SSDs are becoming more reliable than disk drives... the new disk drives are sporting 2 year warranties and some of the SSDs are up to 10 year... The drive in my netbook is about 2-3 years old and I am thinking switching to SSD in that as the drive fails.
<DalekSec> Did you have any questions about that Xubuntu minimal metapackage?
<OvenWerks> DalekSec: I would, but not till the new year... or I will forget by the time I start working with it. What I need to do is take that and see how the ubuntustudio metas work installed on top.
<OvenWerks> So far I have been able to drop our metas on top of kubuntu/xubuntu/lubuntu with minimal problems, but that was 2 versions ago
<OvenWerks> I will need to get up to date. I was following xubuntu development quite closely, but have stopped since I have had no system to work with.
<holstein> OvenWerks: where are you? if you dont mind me asking.. 
<OvenWerks> holstein: Vancouver Island
<OvenWerks> My main problem is having room to set up, I will replace the drive (or machine) in my netbook.
<OvenWerks> But they don't seem to make them any more. The laptops are bigger than I want and the small ones are pads with Arm/Android in them.
<holstein> i like the netbooks
<OvenWerks> The biggest problem with mine is there are no open graphics drivers. :P what is there is ok for what I do though.
<holstein> yeah.. i have an early via one.. pain
<OvenWerks> I'll probably end up with an i3 based deal, just up in size. But I really liked the atom because they run cooler.
<OvenWerks> Wife home... I loose use of computer  :)
<zequence> Had forgotten about jokosher. Seems it has been removed from the Debian repos for the upcoming Jessie release
<zequence> The project seems abandoned
<zequence> Too bad really. Seemed like a nice garageband type of app
<holstein> folks are always wanting a garageband type thing
<DalekSec> http://www.linuxalt.com/linux-software/jokosher.html doesn't help much...
<DalekSec> holstein: Oh, if you wanted to try and like Aqualung 1.0, I packaged it to try it too. :P
<holstein> DalekSec: i remember kind of liking it
<DalekSec> Aha, really?  It's been removed in Debian/Ubuntu, but 1.0~rc1 is out and works (fixing the reasons for it's removal.)
<holstein> maybe someone at debian will put it back,t hen
<DalekSec> Adam CÃ©cile?  He seems to be MIA.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2015-11-02
<zequence> sakrecoer_: I believe there are only three people interested in PR and Support, you, me and Jimmy
<zequence> But, I agree, better to use the wiki, and keep all things in one place
<zequence> sakrecoer_: If you can go 2-3 months without smoking, that should do it :)
<zequence> OvenWerks: I put kid3-qt back. There are new seeds now
<zequence> Going to set up the new meta for xenial, as it is called
<zequence> Well, maybe later, anyway
#ubuntustudio-devel 2015-11-06
<sakrecoer_> i seem to always sleep when someone is asking question in #ubuntustudio
<sakrecoer_> could we have ubottu give a message after 5-7 minutes of post-question silence?
<sakrecoer_> reffering to the list...
<sakrecoer_> maybe its hardcore stuff to fix... i'm think chats thats finish with a question mark, if no answer after x minutes, then ubottu say "hi, i'm sexybot, have you try list?"
<sakrecoer_> had funky dream btw, this guy had fixed a program that took the gpg sum and the 2 keys to recreate the file. and then we emailed petabytes to eachother :D
<zequence> There's already one bot out there with immense powers. They're calling it Google :)
<zequence> But, it's a great idea. If it remembers who it has given information in the past, it won't need to repeat itself
<zequence> We do have the welcoming text which could be used for that though
<sakrecoer_> yes!! those who tend to leave before they get an answer, tend to join the channeljust briefly before asking the quesiton...
<sakrecoer_> so wellcoming text would be equal to ubottu AI addition...
#ubuntustudio-devel 2016-11-07
<OvenWerks> 0
<krytarik> 1
<eylul> 2
* krytarik changed the topic of #ubuntustudio-devel to: Ubuntu Studio development | Support in #ubuntustudio | http://ubuntustudio.org/contribute/ | Testing: http://iso.qa.ubuntu.com/ ~ http://packages.qa.ubuntu.com/
#ubuntustudio-devel 2016-11-08
<sakrecoer> 7
<sakrecoer> FYI
<sakrecoer> https://archive.org/details/ubuntustudio_featuretour_by_chamois
<sakrecoer> https://git.launchpad.net/ubuntustudio-website/commit/?h=assets&id=a737444609adc1df31becf80a514062471d793e3
#ubuntustudio-devel 2016-11-13
<chamois> Hello everyone! http://pasteall.org/pic/index.php?id=108733
#ubuntustudio-devel 2017-11-08
<flocculant> do you guys know how to get studio on to the tracker for bionic? 
#ubuntustudio-devel 2017-11-10
<flocculant> I see it's done - out of channel now, guess you are all completely au fait with all the stuffs you need \o/
#ubuntustudio-devel 2017-11-11
<astraljava> Someone had pinged me but it's now scrolled over the back buffer. But I'm sure it's not relevant anymore. :D If it is, though, please try again, I'll try to respond quicker this time around. :)
<OvenWerks> astraljava: that must have been many days ago, I can scroll up 5 days and not see anything.
<astraljava> OvenWerks: Yeah, and considering I was last here probably a few months ago... :D
#ubuntustudio-devel 2019-11-06
<Eickmeyer> Ok, everyone, here's where we're at: I'm working on updating hydrogen to 1.0.0-beta1, which was "released" in March 2018. The reason being is that we need to remove Qt4, and this is the last bit.
<Eickmeyer> Unfortunately, I'm running into build errors, notably the "install" section.
<Eickmeyer> teward: Perhaps I can enlist you to help? https://code.launchpad.net/~ubuntustudio-dev/+git/hydrogen
<Eickmeyer> teward: As you can see, I'm running into FTBFS. Looks like it's occurring in the dh_install phase: https://launchpad.net/~eeickmeyer/+archive/ubuntu/ppa/+packages
<teward> got build logs?
<Eickmeyer> Yep.
<Eickmeyer> Right there in the link for every arch.
<teward> your failures on amd64 are in the build package ohase
<Eickmeyer> Ok, yes.
<Eickmeyer> Looks like in the doc section.
<Eickmeyer> teward: Looks like I need to fix something in debian/rules, but I'm not sure what.
<teward> and specifically that portion of the rules are failing
<teward> let me look
<Eickmeyer> ok
<teward> so it *looks* like: *** No targets specified and no makefile found.  Stop.
<teward> at what point does data/doc get built I wonder
<teward> let me spin this in a local sbuild which I can interact with after a failure
<Eickmeyer> Ok.
<teward> you use gbp for this don't you :P
<teward> Eickmeyer: Okay, so...
<teward> you might be missing things in this
<teward> missiong libraries in the output
<teward> unless you WANT to not have TAR, LADSPA, OSC, OSS support in this
<OvenWerks> OSS support is questionable. The rest are more important
<teward> well yer missing libraries for them
<teward> https://paste.ubuntu.com/p/yCbQhPJd6H/ <-- relevant output
<teward> error reproduced on amd64
<Eickmeyer> teward: TBH, the only thing I've done to the rules file is change it to point to Qt5. Before that, the last upload to debian was in 2016, so this rules file is pretty ancient.
<teward> okay so in amd64 the data/doc directory is created but there is no make file in it so make errors out
<teward> in THEORY we can remove that from d/rules
<teward> but that would only fix amd64
<teward> i have to run other schroots to test the other archs
<teward> and you need a lot more build-deps for the otherbits you want to keep
<teward> for the others, the dh_systemd_enable stuff is obsolete
<teward> you need to use dh_installsystemd instead
<teward> that error is selfexplanatory
<teward> > dh_systemd_enable: dh_systemd_enable is no longer used in compat >= 11, please use dh_installsystemd instead
<teward> so you need to look up the differences between the two and how to rewrite the rules to use dh_installsystemd instead
<Eickmeyer> Yeah, I couldn't figure out where dh_systemd_enable is even being called.
<Eickmeyer> teward: ^
<teward> yeah not sure here either
<teward> oop i think i found it
<teward> it's in cdbs
<teward> it's in /usr/share/cdbs/1/rules/debhelper.mk line 241.
<teward> and that file is included in line 23 of the rules
<teward> I unfortunately cannot help you much with the CDBS stuff :/
<teward> might ask for an assist in #ubuntu-devel maybe?
<teward> unless tsimonq2 wants to dig into cdbs hell.
<teward> so it looks like you have a lot of different problems, some are possibly CDBS introduced some aren't.  I haven't ever used CDBS for anything
<Eickmeyer> Yikes. Keep me posted, I'll be monitoring @ubuntu-devel
<Eickmeyer> *#
<Eickmeyer> s/@/#
<teward> Eickmeyer OK so I think the problem is that it uses CDBS and not DH
<teward> which is going to introduce these issues
<Eickmeyer> Ok, so that means we need to rewrite the rules file.
<teward> so unless we can remove CDBS from the equation (which we can't do unless we know CDBS, which I don't) I'm not sure how to proceed
<teward> you'll need someone more experienced than me to fix this
<teward> also note
<teward> https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=874907#38
<ubottu> Debian bug 874907 in src:hydrogen "[hydrogen] Future Qt4 removal from Buster" [Serious,Open]
<teward> notice the last message there.  Probably a good idea to check with Debian on this, and see if they have a solution to get rid of CDBS and use short-form DH as was suggested
<Eickmeyer> Unfortunately tsimonq2 wants this done ASAP, so I'm not sure what to do now.
<teward> we have two options:
<teward> (1) tsimonq2 can assist with the CDBS -> DH transition and push the issue in Debian
<teward> (2) remove hydrogen from consideration
<teward> (and drop it, which sounds like it might be a 'bad idea'?)
<teward> tsimonq2: wake up and read
<teward> *kicks Simon around*
<Eickmeyer> I'd rather go with option 1. Dropping Hydrogen would be bad.
<OvenWerks> Kind of like saying we don't do audio any more?
<teward> I unfortunately am not familiar with the package enough to do a CDBS -> DH transition, nor do I know CDBS that well either.  Unfortunately.
<teward> pretty sure SImon doesn't know cdbs either unless he's hiding something
<studiobot> <teward001> @tsimonq2 wake up, time to sin!
<studiobot> <teward001> :P
<teward> Eickmeyer: also, you need to `update-maintainers` if there's an Ubuntu specific variation on this, system wouldn't let me gbp buildpackage it so I had to make a local change to make it behave :P
<teward> at least, just for consideration.  It should still work in Ubuntu/Debian but not when it FTBFS
<Eickmeyer> teward: Ok.
<Eickmeyer> teward: Done.
<Eickmeyer> Of course, if we don't end up having an Ubuntu version of this, it won't matter.
<teward> trued
<teward> true*
<teward> solution: fallback to compat 10 for now
<teward> per infinity in #ubuntu-devel
<Eickmeyer> teward: yep, pushed. Building now.
<teward> cool.
<teward> let me know if it FTBFS again
<teward> for all we know this fixes all the issues xD
<Eickmeyer> teward: Looks like it's working, but arm has yet to build.
<Eickmeyer> Just gotta clean-up a couple of lintian items, then we'll get it uploaded.
<studiobot> <teward001> Nice.  I take it this isnt part of the packageset you have upload privs to?
<Eickmeyer> @teward001: I don't have a packageset. So, no.
<Eickmeyer> Only one who has the packageset is Ross, but you're a core dev so you've got even more access.
<teward> i have full upload rights lol
<Eickmeyer> teward: Exaaaaaactly.
<teward> let me know if all builds succeed AND the package worls
<teward> works*
<teward> Qt can be a pain so we want to make *sure* it works before I do any uploads
<Eickmeyer> Builds succeed, but haven't tried the package yet. Got a lot going on.
<teward> and I"ll do some stringent testing on copyright, etc.
<teward> that's the order of things
<teward> FORTUNATELY you have time :)
<Eickmeyer> Exactly.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2019-11-07
<Eickmeyer> teward: No more FTBFS, installed, ran, checks good.
<Eickmeyer> The only issue I have is a weird copyright issue, might be legacy.
<teward> got details on it?
<teward> (I'm not moving until tomorrow at the moment)
<teward> (I need some rests :P)
<Eickmeyer> teward: NO worries. 
<Eickmeyer> teward: So, basically, the copyright file shows GPL-2+, but it's daying GPL-2+ != GPL-2.0+, so it's possible the copyright for a file got updated at some point to 2.0+. I've gotta rerun lintian on it.
<studiobot> <teward001> GPL-2+ isn't GPL-2.0+ by nature of naming.  You should always use the full form I believe too.
<studiobot> <teward001> so yeah you have to update and rerun lintian
<OvenWerks> While I agree it is best to put gpl2+, gpl2only is the odd one out...
<OvenWerks> That is you have to change the wording of gpl2 to make it gpl2 only otherwise it would be gpl2+
<Eickmeyer> @teward001 Yeah, that copyright file is very much legacy. I only added my name to it for debian/*.
