#ubuntu-doc 2004-12-13
<George^D^Work> hi all
<enrico> Hello George^D^Work 
* enrico goes to bed
* #ubuntu-doc  [freenode-info]  why register and identify?  your IRC nick is how people know you.  http://freenode.net/faq.shtml#nicksetup
<lulu> morning all :o)
<ChrisH> lulu: Hey... :)
<lulu> ChrisH: Hiya! countdown.....!
<ChrisH> Indeed. :)
<ChrisH> Everybody... don't forget to bring your PGP keys for the keysigning. :)
<hornbeck> good morning
<enrico> hornbeck: hello!
<enrico> hornbeck: nice to see you around!  how are you doing!
* enrico hugs hornbeck 
<hornbeck> tired
<hornbeck> can't sleep
* enrico cuddles hornbeck
<hornbeck> haha
<hornbeck> its 4am 
<enrico> argh
<hornbeck> where do you live?
<enrico> Bologna, Italy
<hornbeck> ahh
<hornbeck> you where the only person that I talk to that I did not know where you lived
<enrico> Just woke up.  But last night I couldn't sleep either
<hornbeck> I had a disturbing call last night that I think is causeing me to not sleep
<enrico> Hope everything is allright
<hornbeck> yeah, just a ex-girlfriend
<hornbeck> Italy huh, you into Vespa?
<enrico> ARGH!
<hornbeck> what?
<enrico> Vespa what?
<enrico> The motorbike: cute!
<hornbeck> the scooter not the wasp
<enrico> The anchorman: /me vomits
<enrico> The wasp: preferable to the anchorman
<hornbeck> haha
<hornbeck> there is a anchorman named Vespa?
<enrico> Yes.  He's leading political talk shows on behalf of the government in the major national TV
<hornbeck> ahhh
<hornbeck> I was talking motorbike
<hornbeck> the good Vespa
<enrico> He's hosted so many outright biased things for all his career that he become an epythome of it
<enrico> Vespa scooters are geat!
<hornbeck> yeah they are
<enrico> Supertweakable.  When I was in junior high school, everyone had a tweaked vespa
<hornbeck> nice
<hornbeck> I had a 1975 TS 125
<enrico> The common one is when you change the engine with a bigger one, and the engine cover doesn't close anymore
<hornbeck> now I have a frame for a '63 Allstate
<enrico> Kind of cute :)
<hornbeck> I was into making mine faster
<hornbeck> they are big in the punk/skin sceen here in the US
<enrico> Oh, nice.. I prefer the trend of vespas to the trend of SUVs..
<hornbeck> yeah
<hornbeck> I now own CUV
* enrico likes the idea of americans in Vespas
<enrico> CUV?
<hornbeck> Compact Utility Vehicle
<hornbeck> a Pontiac Vibe
<enrico> yup yup!
<enrico> They are so common in Italy: less expenses in fuel, and you do find parking
<hornbeck> cool
<enrico> We also have "Smart" cars 
<hornbeck> Smart cars are coming to the US finally
<enrico> Mako said he'd like one, but other americans would not see it and run over it
<hornbeck> I would love to bring my wife to Italy
<hornbeck> more than likely
<enrico> hornbeck: there are various cheap flights from US to Italy afaik
<hornbeck> I don't think I can get the time off
<hornbeck> ever
<hornbeck> :-)
<hornbeck> I had to basicly kill to get some time off this month
<enrico> hornbeck: are you coming to the conf?
<hornbeck> no, I could not get a passport in time
<hornbeck> to short of notice
<hornbeck> takes 6-8 weeks and I only had three
<enrico> wow... that's long
<hornbeck> yeah it is
<enrico> 6-8 WEEKS?
<hornbeck> yep
<enrico> Man, it's 2 days in Italy...
<hornbeck> man I wish it was 2 days here
<hornbeck> I would be on my way to Spain
<enrico> But you did manage to get some day off anyway?
<hornbeck> yeah to take my wife to Las Vegas
<hornbeck> her mom lives there
<enrico> Las Vegas sounds so strange seen from overseas
<hornbeck> we have a new baby who she wants her mom to see for christmas
<hornbeck> it is strange
<hornbeck> well I think I am going to try and go back to bed
<hornbeck> at least get a few more hours sleep
<hornbeck> so goodnight
<enrico> hornbeck: good night!
<enrico> hornbeck: (and if you are in bed and can't sleep, try sex ;)
* sid77 hi!
<enrico> hi sid77!
<sid77> ehi
<sid77> how are you?
<enrico> quite well!
<sid77> lol, ! madness!
<ChrisH> Ah! WLAN works now. Matar... I'm coming. :)
<ChrisH> Great that we have the conference at the hotel. We can even surf from the hotel rooms...
<enrico> ChrisH: in Oxford hotel rooms were not covered, or were covered with the hotel service, which needed payment
<enrico> ChrisH: (needed payment unless you did IP over DNS)
<ChrisH> But in the Ciudad de Mataro we will probably have it.
<ChrisH> Everybody: remember that the keyparty preparation period ends tomorrow! Everybody who wants to participate in the keysigning party needs to take action quickly.
<lulu> ChrisH: that would be a good warning on the Ubuntu channel too :o)
<ChrisH> k
<ChrisH> announcement flooded
<enrico> lulu: I have a short question to ask
<lulu> enrico: np
<enrico> sorry, micro black-out.  If you sent me something, please resend
<lulu> sivang: hiya!
<sivang> hey lulu! what's up?
<sivang> hi plovs
<plovs> hi sivang 
<sivang> plovs : I've seen the map you posted :) did you manage to understand anything from it?
<plovs> how's the laptop?
<sivang> plovs : fine, your's ?:)
<plovs> i was planning on using the force to find the hotel
<plovs> mine comes tomorrow, i borrow one from a friend
<sivang> hahah
<sivang> oh good
<plovs> you've got ubuntu running?
<plovs> or debian
<sivang> I am still puzzled for how I can get to the hotel from the train, whatis EUP on that map,
<sivang> and really, how much walk it is and/or if there are any dangers in the way :)
<plovs> it'll be ok, i'm sure
<plovs> off course i have the uncanny  ability to get lost in a turning door, that might make this a bit more ... interesting 
<sivang> plovs : hehe
<plovs> brb have to reboot the firewall
<sivang> plovs : are you bringing your scrable board for a few matches? :)
<sivang> plovs : kidding we'll have plenty of hacking and bof talking to do..
<plovs> am i back?
<plovs> yes
<sivang> you rebooted the firewall and we didn't even notice :)
<plovs> after banging my head against the wall for a week, i have a headache and a more or less working system
<sivang> plovs : at least it's working, now take an Advil and go rest a bit :)
<plovs> squid is not yet working 100% and vpn is not working at all, and i want to finish it before tuesday
<plovs> mail-routing i'll do when i get back
<sivang> plovs : why the hurry? Can't you use the network as it is?
<plovs> people need the vpn to get material from another site
<sivang> ah I see
<sivang> when you set this up, this is a great interconnetion for coprorations, it allows them also to add voip without and additional costs.
<plovs> that is something i have been thinking about as well, i love networking
<sivang> enrico : got the gnocatan source pacakge, I see a few omf thingies hanging there.
<enrico> sivang: are you finding your way on it?
<sivang> enrico : I found some traces of omf , I'll know better in a sec
<sivang> enrico : You wouldn't believe it, do "man dh_scrollkeeper"
<enrico> coool!
<sivang> how come this isn't documented anywhere? Or maybe it is.....
<sivang> In Joey's debhelper manual? :)
<enrico> well, if it has a manpage, it's documented :))
<sivang> yes, but how would I find out about that command besides from reading a debian/rulez file?
<enrico> sivang: common practice is reading debian/rules files
<enrico> :)
<sivang> ok, then I guess I'm on the right path..
<sivang> :)
<sivang> enrico : was cool if Joey Hess attended the conf, this is one man I think debian/dervied should be thankful to
* enrico at the phone
<enrico> back
<lulu> night all :o)
<enrico> Hello!
<enrico> I discussed with mako swapping the newmaint bof and the docteam bof, so that I'll be able to join the docteam one as well
<enrico> The change is still not confirmed, but there shuold be no problems in doing it
<enrico> (unless someone raises some, of course)
<ChrisH> Not really. I just need/want to attend to both so it would be nice to have them between the 8th (4 p.m. ->) and the 11th (<- 10 a.m.)
<enrico> ChrisH: right.  I didn't feel like scheduling anything on the 8th, though, as people will be quite busy arriving
* enrico goes out
<enrico> Bye!!
#ubuntu-doc 2004-12-14
* #ubuntu-doc  [freenode-info]  why register and identify?  your IRC nick is how people know you.  http://freenode.net/faq.shtml#nicksetup
* sid77 hi!
<enrico> Hello everyone
<ChrisH> enrico: hey :)
<enrico> ChrisH: hi!
<enrico> I'm about to post a message to ubuntu-doc asking for topics that people would want us to talk about in Matar
<enrico> I wanted to ask here first, though, to start putting some content int he mail
<enrico> however, there's not much people here yet and I've been called for lunch
<ChrisH> Me, too. I'll think about it.
* netjoined: irc.freenode.net -> niven.freenode.net
<enrico> I'm about to send to the list a mail asking for things one wants to be discussed during the docteam meeting in Matar
<enrico> Someone has some suggesion I can put in the mail already?
<ChrisH> A few... but I'd rather think about it once again and answer to the ML.
<enrico> ChrisH: ok
<enrico> I'm putting down some in the mail
<enrico> sent!
<ChrisH> enrico: good boy... :)
<enrico> :)
<sivang> hi all
<ChrisH> sivang: Hey! :)
<sivang> Hi ChrisH !
<enrico> hello!
<sivang> Hi enrico!
<enrico> I've been at the computer until now and the channel was dead, I decide to go and take a shower and do some shopping, and everyone gets in! :(
<sivang> oh :(
<sivang> enrico : sorry
<enrico> Well, the shower is mostly needed: see you later :)
<sivang> laterz!
<enrico> sivang: ehi: no reason to be sorry!
<sivang> I was busy with last minue preperations
<sivang> :)
<enrico> sivang: last minute preparations on friday?
#ubuntu-doc 2004-12-15
<enrico> sivang: did you find anything interesting about scrollkeeper
<enrico> sivang: like getting it to install?
<sivang> enrico : well, mostly an example file, and the dh_ thingy
<sivang> enrico : other then that, not much on how to actually invoke it to install documentatio :(
<enrico> sivang: oh, right.  Invoking such things in cdbs is non-trivial
<enrico> Or rather, undocumented
<sivang> yes, if I could find someone to tell my about it it would be great.
<sivang> I have talk with tseng a week ago about cdbs , maybe it's worth asking him when his around?
<enrico> I should have it somewhere
<sivang> you mean documentation?
<enrico> uh, no... but an example
<enrico> try this rule in debian/rules:
<enrico> binary-install/ubuntu-handbook::
<enrico>         dh_scrollkeeper
<enrico> try it also with a single colon if it doesn't work
<enrico> and the spaces before dh_scrollkeeper are _one single tab_
<sivang> but I need to have an omf file available right?
<enrico> Oh, right!
<sivang> ok, I have an example
<trickie> hi all, i hope Spain is fun... i wish i could i come...
<trickie> i was just at the OSCD in MElbourne, Aust, and it was great... conferences can be sooo fun!
<ChrisH> enrico_: Hey... you'll be spending the night with Martin? :)
<enrico_> Yes!
<enrico_> argh!  Someone dared to use my nick!
<ChrisH> enrico_: Tell him I'm still stuck in the Debian NM queue. :)
* enrico_ loads the gun
* enrico blows on the smoking gun
<enrico> ChrisH: so many people are stuck in the NM queue :(
<ChrisH> enrico: Just kidding. I know how he thinks about that.
<enrico> What did he says about that?
<ChrisH> enrico: It was after a "state of the nation" talk last year. He said he is aware that the project has problems and that he is trying to fix those. But he also admitted that he tried before and the structures in Debian are sometimes a little complicated and that it's not always easy to get things moving.
<enrico> right
<ChrisH> I assume he can't just walk up to certain people and tell them they are fired.
<enrico> No, that wouldn't be polite :)
<ChrisH> But helpful for the whole project.
<ChrisH> If I were an obstacle I wouldn't expect to be handled very politely.
<enrico> Not necessarily: sometimes there is experience and know-how that you don't want to throw away
<ChrisH> What about "everybody is replaceable"? :)
<enrico> The risk is throwing away the baby together with the water (does this proverb translate?)
<enrico> "everybody is replaceable" would be the goal to attain, imho
<enrico> but replacing some of the people now, would be a superhellofapain
<ChrisH> From my point of view the gear is already jammed. I see nothing moving at all. I get asked about when Sarge is about to release, when the DAM will accept new maintainers etc.
<enrico> Me too.  I prefer to think that the gear is slow and someone is looking for a way to oil it, though
<ChrisH> The DDs seem to do a good job. Very current packages. Good cooperation in smaller groups. But the pieces that are responsible for getting it all together seem to be on vacation on a far-away beach. :)
<enrico> Well, we have a working release team at the moment, which I think it's a very good step forward
<enrico> a tiny one, but a good one
<enrico> What was a "person" became a "team"
<ChrisH> I'm indeed confident that the RM has improved.
<ChrisH> Perhaps I shouldn't come to the conference with a "Die, Debian, Die" t-shirt. ;)
<enrico> Uh, no, you shouldn't :)
<enrico> ChrisH: so, are you ready with the fingerprint on the business cards?
<ChrisH> enrico: Hehe... not really. I only have biz cards from work and they contain nothing important.
<enrico> ChrisH: fingerprints!  Fingerprints!  You need a lot of fingerprints!
<ChrisH> enrico: I always carry some PGP snippets with me. There is a LaTeX tool somewhere that creates them.
<ChrisH> enrico: amu said when he signs my key I already have 3000 sigs. :)
<ChrisH> sivang: Hey, the holy one!
<enrico> ChrisH: I'm fairly well connected as well
<enrico> let me check
<sivang> Hey all!
<sivang> Hey ChrisH, nm master :)
<sivang> hi enrico
<ChrisH> enrico: Not the top 1000 MSD list again. :)
<sivang> talking gpg signing?
<ChrisH> enrico: I suggested to amu that he sells sigs on eBay. :)
<ChrisH> sivang: Yep.
<enrico> sivang:  hi!
* ChrisH should print the key ID on his t-shirt
<enrico> ChrisH: wow!  Good idea!
<ChrisH> ...or get a PGP tatoo :)
<enrico> uh, amu is better than me
<enrico> I'm 19th, he's 11th!
<ChrisH> enrico: Like it's important who is better signed. :)
<enrico> Wow!  Amaya is 50!
<ChrisH> I'm creating a new t-shirt anyway. But it may look mad to have it printed on.
<enrico> But inside the Debian keyring, I'm 12th and amu is 23rd :)
<ChrisH> I'm proud owner of a single signature. :)
<enrico> ChrisH: your self-signature? :)
<ChrisH> enrico: Nah, one *real* sig. :)
<ChrisH> The other people either forgot to bring their ID cards or lost their keys afterwards or created new ones.
* enrico likes playing with www.lysator.liu.se/~jc/wotsap
<enrico> ChrisH: what's your key id?
<ChrisH> enrico: 79CC6586
<enrico> Bu!  Wotsap's not working today :(
<sivang> who is amu?
<ChrisH> sivang: Andreas Mller - a german DD who I talked to a few days ago.
<sivang> ah, I see :) he also going be on the conf
<ChrisH> Yes. He's also holding a BOF IIRC.
<enrico> amu is supercool
<enrico> amu rules
<ChrisH> Because of his number of signatures?
<enrico> Rather because of his license plate on his car.  But not only that
<ChrisH> Uh huh...
<enrico> He's generally a great person
<plovs> hi guys, all ready to go?
<sivang> hehe 
<sivang> plovs : you?
* enrico is almost ready
<enrico> I'll leave tomorrow morning superearly
<plovs> forgot to send my gpg key, am reading it now
<enrico> plovs: send it now!
<ChrisH> plovs: Blame the time zone and just send it. :)
* plovs mutters about time-zones
<ChrisH> plovs: If that doesn't work then you have to contact everyone and exchange sigs. I'd even do that.
* plovs also has to study how all this gpg stuff works
<ChrisH> plovs: gpg --export -a your-email-address > your-email-address
<enrico> plovs: you can get explanations from anyone at the conf
<plovs> enrico: would be nice to do it beforehand, i suppose
<plovs> enrico: and then get some more explanation afterwards
<enrico> plovs: no, not really.  Beforehand you just have to do the export and marking the md5sum of the file on its printout
<enrico> then, you can get explanations just before the keysigining
<plovs> enrico: sounds good
<plovs> ok, i exported it as ChrisH said, now i just send it to mako as an attachement?
<enrico> yes
<plovs> ChrisH: studying your postfix docs, atm, i have to update the mailserver and will use it as base
<plovs> nice start postfix-tls: broken package
<plovs> unbroken :-)
<ChrisH> plovs: oops... broken? In sid?
<plovs> sarge, but it is unbroken again, i missed something in my sources-file
<sivang> enrico :  I seem to not be able to understand how to isntall the scrollkeepr stuf..
<sivang> enrico : any idea ? the cdbs lines won't work at all
<enrico> sivang: I'll have dinner and then we'll look into it.  In the meantime, please commit your last changes
<enrico> See you in 30/40 minutes
<sivang> ok
<enrico> back
<sivang> enrico : ok, I'll svn update
<enrico> you mean svn commit? :)
<sivang> enrico : ah yes :)
<sivang> enrico : commited
<sivang> enrico : what is the compat file for?
<enrico> ChrisH: around?
<enrico> it tells debhelper which interface it should export
<enrico> if you put a different number there, debhelper scripts work a bit differently
<sivang> interace?
<enrico> (iirc)
<sivang> what is an interface in means of debhelper?
<enrico> the interface of its scripts
<enrico> They probably changed some commandline options in version 4, and provided a compatibility mode
<sivang> enrico : ok, I commited 
<enrico> trying to update
<sivang> ok
<enrico> Could not connect to server http://69.etc..)
<sivang> strange
<sivang> anyway, I just found out that the package does not install the xml files and the parts subdirectories
<enrico> WELL
<enrico> uhm..
<enrico> I'm doing a traceroute
<enrico> It's really slow, dunno why
<enrico> but it eventually gets through
<sivang> I'll see if it likes my update 
<sivang> (svn update)
<enrico> I can't even do a "telnet 69.155.172.150 80" (it times out)
<enrico> And ECN is disabled
<enrico> the machine seems down from here
<enrico> gosh
<enrico> where was the Matar map with the station and the hotel?
* enrico almost forgot it
<sivang> enrico : http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/ConferenceMaps
<enrico> sivang: thanks! 
<enrico> sivang: can you reach the svn server?
<sivang> enrico : it appears not :(
<sivang> svn: PROPFIND of '/faq': could not connect to server (http://69.155.172.150)
<enrico> In the meantime, I printed the map
<sivang> ah good idea
<enrico> And the address of the hotel
<sivang> good, althouh I have already talked with someone who arrived at the hotel already (IRC dutch channel moderator) and he said it as easy as in the wiki
<sivang> you are out of the train station then turn left,
<enrico> oh, people already there!
<sivang> yes!
<sivang> :)
<sivang> <Treenaks> the line below (at "Train station") starts where you would expect it :)
<sivang> <Treenaks> If you follow the 'Exit' signs in the station
<sivang> <Treenaks> you get to the starting point of the line, exactly
<sivang> <Treenaks> so with your back to the station, turn left, at the roundabout, turn right, third street left, and it'll apprear at your right hand (after the "JUSTICE" building)
<sivang> <Treenaks> (the justice building is on your left though)
<sivang> <Treenaks> really, it's as easy as described on the wiki
<sivang> <Treenaks> (and I'm not an experienced traveller)
<sivang> <Treenaks> but the train seemed like a pickpocket place, yes.. guard your stuff :)
<enrico> yup!
<enrico> Don't forget a good book for the trip!
<sivang> enrico : saw this on the cdbs wiki?
<sivang> his class adds the following make environnement variable : GCONF_DISABLE_MAKEFILE_SCHEMA_INSTALL=1
<sivang> (This is necessary because the Gconf schemas have to be registered at install time. In the case of packaging, this registration cannot be done when building the package, so this variable disable schema registration in 'make install'. This procedure if defered until gconftool-2 is called in 'debian/postinst' to register them, and in 'debian/prerm' to unregister them. The dh_gconf script is able to add the right rules automatically for 
<sivang> you.)
<sivang> It can handle the following dh_* scripts automagically :
<sivang> dh_gconf
<sivang> dh_scrollkeeper
<sivang> Moreover it adds some more clean rules :
<sivang>     *
<sivang>       to remove intltool generated files
<sivang>     *
<sivang>       to remove scrollkeeper generated files
<sivang> To use it, just add this line to your 'debian/rules', after the debhelper class include :
<sivang> include /usr/share/cdbs/1/class/gnome.mk
<sivang> apart from including that in the rules file, I am not sure what else I need to do
<sivang> enrico : moreover, how can I copy the xml source tree to prefix/usr/share/doc/ubuntu-handbook ?
<enrico> remove my attempt :)
<sivang> Already did,
<enrico> to copy that...
<enrico> uhm...
<sivang> the xml files (as they in the pkg source) need to be copied to somwhere , then maybe registed 
<sivang> why not use "postinst"
<sivang> ?
<enrico> just try adding the source directory to debian/docs
<enrico> that cdbs rule should add the right parts to postinst for you
<sivang> how will it know to take the xml files? they already exist, so it doesn't have to make them - that's why I think it ingoes them
<enrico> you already use the debian/docs to copy the html directory, don't you?  Use the same logic for the parts directory
<enrico> else, we need to add to the makefile a rule to install the xml files
<sivang> you mean add /xml under the html/ line?
<enrico> is there a xml directory in your source tree?
<sivang> no
<sivang> parts
<enrico> yup
<sivang> and upper then that, users-guide.xml in the faq/
<sivang> so add those..
<sivang> let's check
<sivang> done
<sivang> touch debian/stamp-autotools-files
<sivang> chmod a+x /home/pooh/devel/docteam/faq/faq/./configure
<sivang> chmod: cannot access `/home/pooh/devel/docteam/faq/faq/./configure': No such file or directory
<sivang> make: *** [config.status]  Error 1
<sivang> ???
<enrico> it probably expects to have autotools installed
<enrico> let's extract the scrollkeeper part of that cdbs class.  Wait a sec
<enrico> ifdef _cdbs_rules_debhelper
<enrico> $(patsubst %,binary-install/%,$(DEB_PACKAGES)) :: binary-install/%:
<enrico>         dh_scrollkeeper -p$(cdbs_curpkg) $(DEB_DH_SCROLLKEEPER_ARGS)
<enrico> endif
<enrico> that's the snipped you can use instead of including the gnome class
* enrico is about to go to bed
<enrico> tomorrow, early wake up
#ubuntu-doc 2004-12-16
<sivang> you fly tommorow?
<enrico> yes
<sivang> ok, then have a good trip
<sivang> I'll try that snippet 
<sivang> Maybe we'll continue this from mataro :)
<enrico> yes!
<sivang> no go :(
<sivang> some semicolon problem
<sivang> nevermind :)
<enrico> going to bed
<enrico> See you from Matar
<ChrisH> The log bot will be back online later... it was running on mentors.debian.net which got hacked today. :(
<sivang> not a prob
<sivang> plovs : hi
<sivang> hey lulu
<lulu> hey sivang! here at the conference...filling up with people
<sivang> lulu : can't wait to come :)
<lulu> sivang:it's going to be a great one - it's good to put faces to names.
<sivang> lulu : I'm sure, I bet we would get some good work done also, having each other personally met and communicate in real life
<lulu> sivang :o)
<ChrisH> lulu: How's the hotel?
<lulu> ChrisH: Hiya! 
<sivang> ChrisH : yo!
<ChrisH> sivang: reyo
<ChrisH> lulu: Do you have any directions how to get from the train station to the hotel? I couldn't find any map.
<lulu> ChrisH: we have 4 meeting rooms.
<lulu> they are great
<lulu> bandwidth 13Meg
<sivang> ChrisH : http://foodfight.org/fotos/2004/12-05%20Walk%20from%20Matar3%20train%20station%20to%20hotel/
<ChrisH> lulu: Nice.
<lulu> train station to hotel. our road is parallel to the train station
<lulu> beach, train station, our road.
<ChrisH> sivang: error 404
<sivang> oops
<sivang> xchat eated some chars there
<sivang> ChrisH : "http://foodfight.org/fotos/2004/12-05%20Walk%20from%20Matar3%20train%20station%20to%20hotel/"
<sivang> hmm
<sivang> it did it again
<ChrisH> lulu: is the "cami ral" starting at the train station?
<ChrisH> lulu: Although it will quite a hassle with wife and baby I'm confident it will be a funny time. :)
<lulu> 5 mins walk. out of station, go under the subway.walk up a side street perpendicular to the beach road and the next main street up is our Hotel road.
<sivang> ChrisH : go to the Maps section on the wiki, it has the link there, by the kind help of hte deuth IRC channel moderator :)
<sivang> he has photoed the whole walkthrough from the train station to the hotel
<ChrisH> sivang: very good
<sivang> see it now? :)
<sivang> now that's reassurment ha?
<sivang> I asked to do a photographed walkthrough, today he sent me tha lin :))
<sivang> (yesterday)
<lulu> but Chris a taxi is about 4 euros and 5 mins away. so best with baby :o)
<ChrisH> lulu: Sure? I wanted to go by foot because of the baby. I don't believe the taxis have baby seats. And they are known for their kamikaze driving style.
<lulu> ChrisH: fair enough - 5 mins walk.
<lulu> have to go! see you later :o) dinner....
<sivang> ChrisH : pitti told me the cabs are not that bad, you should them the address on a papaerm and it's 3.20EU but don't hold me againss it if it's wrong :)
<sivang> amazing
<ChrisH> sivang: I'm just worried about the baby seat.
<sivang> all canonicals just logged out - dinner
<sivang> :)
<sivang> at the same exact time..
<sivang> hehe
<sivang> anybody know what with the hornbeck server?
<sivang> it went offline yesterday, I am wondering if it's back on.
<sivang> ok, it's on. just checked.
<sivang> ChrisH : do you know anything of packaging yelp documentation? 
<sivang> ChrisH : I am trying to make the handbook register under scrollkeeper using dh_scrollkeeper but to no avail.
<ChrisH> sivang: I haven't ever worked with scrollkeeper.
<sivang> ok :)
<ChrisH> sivang: We should find out over a calimocho. :)
<sivang> ChrisH : who?
<ChrisH> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calimocho
#ubuntu-doc 2004-12-17
<enrico> LET THE CONFERENCE BEGIN!
<ChrisH> Hehe... :)
<ChrisH> enrico: Are you there already?
<ChrisH> Is there an official IRC channel during the conference?
<enrico> uhm uhm uhm...  let's ask
<enrico> Mako doesn't know of anything but #ubuntu-devel
<ChrisH> Uh huh... would be nice to have one for organisational things there.
<ChrisH> #mataro? #ubuntu-conference?
<enrico_> As I was saying, *when my computer won't crash* I'll be hanging on here and keeping people updated
<ChrisH> lulu: Hey. :) How's breakfast?
<lulu> ChrisH: excellent :o) all sorts of allsorts!
<ChrisH> lulu: I assume everone has a laptop on the table. ;)
<enrico> AS I WAS SAYING
<enrico> When my laptop crashes
<enrico> That is, when my laptop does not crash, I hang out here
<enrico> ghghgh
<enrico> And I'll be posting some updates in the list about what happens
<enrico> All the BOFs will have notes on the wiki as well
<lulu> ChrisH: yes. lots of laptops
<ChrisH> lulu: Enough wall sockets? :)
<ChrisH> How many are there actually? 20? 50? 200?
<ChrisH> Would be nice to have a web cam. :)
<enrico> ChrisH: wall sockets?  huge
<enrico> I'll try to post pictures
<enrico> I took some pictures, now I have to fetch the cable to get them out of my camera
<ChrisH> enrico: Can't you wear a helmet cam?
<ChrisH> enrico: How crowded is it already?
* ChrisH is scared of the WLAN reliability in Mataro :)
<enrico> laptop's so much crashy today
<enrico> So, posts to the list
* enrico types
<ChrisH> enrico: Is it crowded already? :)
<enrico> uh, quite
<enrico> around 55 people already
<ChrisH> So the BOFs are probably more like conferences...
<enrico> yeah, although not everyone's in a BOF
<ChrisH> What are you doing? Hacking? :)
<enrico> Well, rebooting my laptop over and over, mainly :(
<enrico> Plus, talking with cenerentola and fixing the notes I've taken
* enrico looks for a place to put pictures online
<ChrisH> enrico: what about a public gallery? I can set one up in no time.
<enrico> ChrisH: do you have bandwidth enough?
<ChrisH> enrico: 0.5 Mbps
<enrico> ChrisH: uhm, that's going to be hammered
<ChrisH> enrico: No problem. :)
<enrico> In that case... :)
<ChrisH> enrico: At least I wanted to put my photos online there. Let's burn the line. :)
<enrico> I'm tring to put my pictures on my  server atm
<enrico> First report sent!
<enrico> well, sending...
<ChrisH> sivang: Hey... a late entry. :)
<sivang> yes :)
<sivang> Have been up late packing :)
<ChrisH> You mean you watched your gf pack your bag? :)
<sivang> something like that :) hehe
<sivang> I would be lost without her 
<sivang> :)
<sivang> yo plovs!
<plovs> hi!
<plovs> ole?
<plovs> sivang: you in Barcelona yet?
<sivang> plovs : I wish :) not yet
<plovs> ? i thoought you went today?
<ChrisH> plovs: Hey... :) Flying today or tomorrow?
<ChrisH> plovs: My plane is going tomorrow at 11:30
<plovs> tomorrow morning at 7:00
<ChrisH> Uh. That's not really tomorrow. :)
<plovs> i'll be there at 13:00 or so
<ChrisH> plovs: Direct flight?
<plovs> no, more like tonight
<plovs> no, riga - prague - barcelona
<plovs> ChrisH: you?
<ChrisH> plovs: I'll arrive at 13:45.
<plovs> tomorrow?
<sivang> ChrisH : when are you arriving the barcelona?
<ChrisH> plovs: I got a direct flight that longs 2:30 hours
<ChrisH> plovs: On Wednesday.
<ChrisH> sivang: 13:45
<plovs> ah, ok, nice to see you all irl
<sivang> ChrisH : tommorow?
<ChrisH> sivang: wednesday
* enrico is waiting for everyone here, arms spread
<ChrisH> enrico: At the front entrance? :)
<plovs> enrico: thanks, for the first write up
<enrico> ChrisH: I'll hand out the room keys :)
<enrico> plovs: my pleasure.  More will come this afternoon
<ChrisH> Launchpad... sounds nice.
<sivang> enrico : can you come pick us up from the train station? :)
<plovs> enrico: yeah, with a limo, a white one, but if that is not possible then a black is ok as well, we're easy
<enrico> sivang: I'll send the armed guards for that
<sivang> I want cavier and champane 
<enrico> plovs: helycopter is allright?
<enrico> sivang: no champagne here, but a good cava will do
<plovs> enrico: armed guards is good, i got this funny package in my suit-case from france
<sivang> enrico : yes, but make it the luxury ones , you know with the hot tub in it
<enrico> (cava is the local champaigne)
<enrico> sivang: hot jacuzzi, one each
<ChrisH> enrico: Wow... power! endless power! :)
<enrico> you can sleep in a jacuzzi here, they give you special inflatable pillows for that
<plovs> enrico: does wireless work in the rooms yet?
<enrico> plovs: Haven't been in the room today :)  But wlan works in all the places I've been
<plovs> enrico: nice
<enrico> ChrisH: there's a red phone here, I didn't try to pick it up.  Maybe that can help you :)
<sivang> enrico : they have a jacuzzi?
<enrico> sivang: uh, really, no
<ChrisH> sivang: It's a bad hotel. No swimming pool at all.
<enrico> The hotel is nice, one of those hotels that are the same all around the globe
<sivang> enrico : ok then, now how in the _world_ don't they provide 2 keys per room?
<enrico> TV, frigobar, shower, tub, toilet and *bidet*!
<enrico> Italians need bidet
<enrico> Air conditioning, too
<ChrisH> enrico: Bidet is nice... but I'd rather have a whirlpool.
<enrico> And the breakfast buffet is really good
<sivang> enrico : where do you leave the laptop when you want to just walk around and hang?
<sivang> enrico : do they have enough power outlets for the less, ACPI blessed ubuntu boxes out there? :)
<enrico> sivang: lots of power outlets: check the pictures (announced in the list)
<enrico> (tehre's also a ConferenceGalleries wiki page now)
<enrico> sivang: where to leave the laptop... uhm... the room has a safe, but it's kind of small
<enrico> sivang: best option is keeping on you
<plovs> enrico: an airport running windows is not really faith-inspiring afaik, but nice pics anyway
<enrico> plovs: hang on a sec
<sivang> enrico : do they have any sort of belongings keeping ?
<sivang> enrico : even paid?
<ChrisH> Who's the guy in the background here: http://foodfight.org/fotos/2004/12-05%20Ubuntu%20Hacker%20Crowd/?img_0003.jpg
<ChrisH> I've seem him before at the LinuxTag.
<enrico> plovs: http://lento.uncasino.it/enrico/galleries/2003-10-22-Sofia/foto/thumb/dscf0113-1-0.html
<ChrisH> enrico: does not look like windows :)
<enrico> ChrisH: you mean the guy with glasses next to the wall?
<ChrisH> enrico: Yes, behind Mark (if that's him)
<ChrisH> Would be nice to have a few photos of people. I have no idea how elmo or mdz look like.
<ChrisH> enrico: But I'm sure you'll introduce us to all. :)
<enrico> About keeping belongings, the hotel rooms are fine.  There's also this locker you can use
<enrico> ChrisH: that guy is "spiv"
<enrico> I'll introduce everyone to everyone until everyone will be sick of me introducing people :)
<enrico> (that's what I usually do anyway ;)
<enrico> It's however more fun to meet people IRL anyway
<enrico> Photos spoil the expectations
<ChrisH> enrico: That's right. It will probably make my head explode to learn 50 names.
<enrico> ChrisH: well, 50 so far.  More will arrive :)
<enrico> hornbeck: !!
<enrico> hornbeck: how're you doing?
<enrico> lunchtime updates at lento.uncasino.it/enrico/ubuntuconf
<hornbeck> I am here, I am doing fine
<ChrisH> enrico: Can't you just wear a helmet camera? :)
<hornbeck> I am done with a truck load of work for my job, so back to Ubuntu this week
<enrico> hornbeck: Wow!  So not in super-hectic-swamped mode anymore!
<hornbeck> nope, done with all that
<hornbeck> only thing I have today is like two clients and a meeting
<lulu> hornbeck: welcome back!
* enrico opens a bottle of champaigne for hornbeck 
<hornbeck> so the rest will be doc writing
<hornbeck> lulu: thanks
<hornbeck> so is everyone except me at the conferance?
<enrico> hornbeck: no, not yet
<hornbeck> ahh
<enrico> hornbeck: just me and lulu, from the current subscriber list of the channel
<enrico> ChrisH: I know you ask that because you want to spy my passwords! :)
<hornbeck> where is ChrisH, plovs, and sivang?
<hornbeck> thought they where first responders also?
<plovs> hornbeck: right here, working
<plovs> hornbeck: i go tomorrow
<ChrisH> hornbeck: I'm here. :) Hi, John.
<ChrisH> hornbeck: I'll be in Spain from Wednesday to Saturday.
<hornbeck> good deal guys
<hornbeck> have alot of fun for me
<enrico> sivang is probably busy packing, like in the last 3 days :)
<hornbeck> I am going to start my passport process in january that way if this every pops up again I can just go
<enrico> hornbeck: buy a lead case for it, though: I heard that new american passports have biometrics on RFID
<enrico> hornbeck: oh, no, they tell me it's not yet working
<ChrisH> enrico: At least your airline didn't go bancrupt this time.
<enrico> ChrisH: eh
<enrico> ChrisH: but the train company tried to keep me away of the airport
<ChrisH> enrico: Were you too ugly? ;)
<enrico> ChrisH: the ticket office was closed, and the train driver didn't allow me in saying that the ticket office was open
<ChrisH> enrico: Did you get anything done today? Or are you just sitting in the reception hall being on IRC? :)
<enrico> ChrisH: the italian railway police officer I asked things later told me to call the railway police next time, because they'd like to beat some train driver since they are annoyed at them doing that  (of course he didn't say "beat")
<enrico> ChrisH: I'm trying to get the hang of this secretary job and to work out and organize what are the initiatives I'll undertake
<enrico> Then I'll make some annoucement in the list
<ChrisH> enrico: Ah, the italian train. I thought you had trouble in Barcelona.
<ChrisH> enrico: So you are the logging officer?
<enrico> ChrisH: for the ubuntu-doc channel, yes
<enrico> Sorry, for the ubuntu-doc community
<ChrisH> Do we have a seperte community? :)
* ChrisH is asking too many questions today
<enrico> ChrisH: you mean, a doc community outside of the channel?  I think so.  There are many more people in the list than in the channel
<enrico> Some are active in the book, for example
<hornbeck> well I am off to work guys
<enrico> hornbeck: see you later!
<hornbeck> have fun, and I will be checking in
<hornbeck> :-)
<enrico> hornbeck: I'll have some things to ask you about the book
<hornbeck> ok, I will be back later
* enrico remembers that for people who are not here, in the ConfAgenda the BOF names will turn into links to the BOF summaries a little time after the BOFs are closed
<sivang> enrico : was it sunday that the ticket office was close?
<enrico> sivang: yes
<sivang> enrico : I heared from Treenaks (Martin Van Streek) that they have an automatic machine there,
<enrico> sivang: but you won't need to get a train ticket in Rome, since you won't get out of the airport anyway
<sivang> hehe
<enrico> sivang: sure, but the automatic machine was out of order
<sivang> Now I get it,
<sivang> I thought it was in Barcelona :)
* enrico goes to non-latin input BOF
<enrico> (since I'll be in Taiwan for some time...)
<enrico> I moved upstairs
<enrico> Wlan still works
<enrico> And there are lots of power plugs
<enrico> mako opens the BOF: A goal for hoary is having input methods for as many scripts as we can figure out what to do
<enrico> some (many) input methods have been mentioned to show the current mess
<enrico> there is a need to see what people are actually using
<ChrisH> enrico: If I may ask... I can't attend at the LaptopSupportAndPowerManagement BOF. Care to take a few notes? That the most FAQ here at work how the "power state of the nation" is currently.
<enrico> ChrisH: ok!
<ChrisH> enrico: thanks
<enrico> ChrisH: that'll be tomorrow afternoon, I'll be there, 
<enrico> ChrisH: anyhow, every BOF has a notetaker and has notes published
<ChrisH> enrico: Okay, that should do it.
<enrico> ChrisH: however, if you want to be online, I can tell you what happens and report questions for you (like, interfacing you with the bof)
<ChrisH> enrico: Wednesday will probably the most interesting day for me. I can offer to take notes there.
<ChrisH> enrico: Thanks for the offer. But I will probably not be online during that time because I need to get a few things ready for the flight.
<enrico> ChrisH: ok
<enrico> Dinnertime!
<enrico> (more or less)
<enrico> See you all tomorrow (I'll try to hack up a nightly report)
<enrico> Bye!
<ChrisH> Yeah, right... my notebook is making trouble. Argh!
* ChrisH gets another one
#ubuntu-doc 2004-12-18
<enrico> Good morning!
<enrico> The Ubuntu Conference is slowly fading into existance around me
<ChrisH> enrico: Not enough sleep? :)
<ChrisH> Obviously...
<ChrisH> End of breakfast? :)
<enrico> *burp*
<enrico> Yes!  The whole thing started!
<enrico> I just joined the network detection and autoconfiguration BOF
<enrico> Started with showing netapplet and network-manager
<ChrisH> enrico: Tell them I still can't connect to Windows Server shares. :)
<enrico> ChrisH: :)
<enrico> plan for hoary is to pick one of the two and make it kind of right.  Post-hoary, something better can be investigated
<enrico> now talking about which connection types to support
<ChrisH> isdn, external modem, ethernet, wifi (should be configurable in the future through a gnome interface)
<enrico> wifi will be configurable in hoary already
<enrico> ChrisH: all you mentioned will be in
<ChrisH> enrico: has sivan arrived already?
<enrico> ChrisH: no, or at least I haven't seen him.  What time was he due to arrive?
<ChrisH> enrico: night or early morning IIRC
<enrico> I'll wait to see someone looking suspiciously worried
<ChrisH> That wouldn't be Sivan, that would be me. ;)
* netjoined: irc.freenode.net -> niven.freenode.net
<ChrisH> enrico_: Nick stolen again?
<enrico_> oh..  your laptop can't crash a second and someone is already there getting your nick .. :)
<ChrisH> enrico: Nickserv rulez. :)
<enrico> I'm back
<sivang> hi all!
<sivang> hi plovs!
<sivang> hey enrico :)
<plovs> ok, life is back to normal
<enrico> hey everyone!
<enrico> ChrisH: please notice the IPs :)
<sivang> heheh
<sivang> :)
<ChrisH> plovs: Hey, Alex! :)
<sivang> Hi ChrisH !
<ChrisH> sivang: Sivan!
<ChrisH> Now I'm the one who is misplaced, huh? :)
<sivang> nahh :)
<ChrisH> sivang: No terrorist attacks during the flight? :)
<sivang> Btw, Barcelona is just nice and sound :)
<sivang> nahh, we almost crashed landing in barceloina, but apart from that the food was very good and the hotel is very very nice.
<ChrisH> sivang: Didn't you arrive this morning already? You're late!
<sivang> also, I am sitting next to enrico, and already met Mako, seen lamon, martin pitt and alot more bunch of people which I don't remember the name :)
<ChrisH> sivang: Or did it take the spanish policy that long to release the hostages?
<ChrisH> When tomorrow there is a completely confused family walking around at 3 p.m. that's probably us. :)
<sivang> ChrisH ; actually, coming from the ME , my bagage has been specially tagged , and the police officer asked me some question which I couldn't answer knowing no spanish :)
<sivang> ChrisH : nothing to be confused about, it's as easy as butter :)
* ChrisH hates butter
<sivang> hmm
<ChrisH> sivang: So why are you so late?
<enrico> ChrisH: he stopped a while with some hot chica latina on the way here
<sivang> hehe, I she just took my tickets and gave me boarding passes, that's all
<sivang> nothing more !
<sivang> ;-)
<ChrisH> I'll probably get the truth once we are all drunk tomorrow. :)
<sivang> hehe
<sivang> plovs : where are you?
<ChrisH> I'm going home for now... need to pack my things. See you later.
<sivang> laters
<enrico> ChrisH: later!
<plovs> sivang, upstairs, i'll be down in a couple of minutes
<sivang> no prob, just wondered were you vainshed.
<sivang> anything already on the wiki regarding whaat we've just discussed?
<lulu> sivang:nope! just finished long discussion!
<sivang> lulu : Ah, sorry to have left..This BOF is about the desgin and decision of how to ease software installation for the users..
<sivang> I was more interested about creating packages :)
<sivang> lulu : btw, how is dinner is handled here ? :)
<lulu> sivang:we have 13 euros a day to spend on dinner.
<sivang> how are we organized? groups go together etc?
<enrico> sivang: when you see people disappearing around you, start being alerted :)
<sivang> hehe
<lulu> sivang:we group together and go out!
<sivang> ah great!
<sivang> can I have freinds over?
<sivang> (also canonical sponserd)
<enrico> sivang: !
<ChrisH> Is the dinner okay at the hotel? Or are you running around the ghetto? :)
<sid77> hi
#ubuntu-doc 2004-12-19
<plovs> morning all
<ChrisH> plovs: morning :)
<plovs> hi, so all packed?
<ChrisH> one notebook just broke... I have to prepare another one. 7 hours sleep left.
<plovs> ChrisH, you'll like it here, lot's of really smart people, but you do need a notebook
<ChrisH> plovs: I'll come with one!
<plovs> good!
<plovs> the hotel is nice, networking everywhere 
<ChrisH> Unless mine breaks, too, which would be the worst case.
<plovs> ChrisH, let's hope for the best
<ChrisH> :)
<ChrisH> plovs: ogra just said he's lonely. He does not know how to play "mao" and he is a smoker. ;)
<plovs> yes, i saw hime walking around, i went to my room already, wanted to chat with natasha a bit and do some work
<ChrisH> ...as long as sivang does not snore :)
<plovs> i sleep like the dead, he can snore all he want :-)
<plovs> i borrowed a laptop with wireless and it worked out of the box, i'm impressed
<plovs> and today i updated to hoary, nice as well
<ChrisH> "borrowed"? :)
<plovs> yes, mine is too old, i use it as x11 frontend only
<plovs> this one is has a centrino 1.4 and wireless
<ChrisH> nice... just have P3/400 here
<plovs> plent of people here with older machines
<plovs> but also some with *really* nice laptops
<ChrisH> I use a notebook so rarely that I don't really need a big machine
<plovs> if you do not travel, then why bother, besides these guys are mostly single, no kids and with a nice income
<ChrisH> Pamela wants me to save my income for our house. :)
<plovs> women! don't have priorities! bless them :-)
<ChrisH> I bring her. Do *you* want to tell her? :)
<plovs> the bofs are great, you can see debian being developed
<plovs> no no! 
<plovs> ;-)
<plovs> sivang just came home
<ChrisH> she laughs :)
<plovs> will be nice to meet her
<sid77> bye all
<sivang> hello all!
<jiyuu0> hello
<sivang> hey jiyuu0
<sivang> what's up?
<jiyuu0> nothing much
<jiyuu0> hagin around
<jiyuu0> how bout u?
<enrico> jiyuu0: hello!
<sivang> I'm cool, working form the hoary conference in Mataro :) 
<jiyuu0> hoary conference?
<jiyuu0> cool
<jiyuu0> who organized
<enrico> jiyuu0: if you check the IP addresses, we happen to be all coming from the same IP :)
<jiyuu0> enrico, hello :)
<jiyuu0> oh
<enrico> Which may in fact look weird :)
<jiyuu0> doc team?
<enrico> jiyuu0: yes!
<sivang> read all about it here : http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/Conference/
<jiyuu0> cool
<jiyuu0> i'm going to launch ubuntuguide.org soon
<enrico> jiyuu0: ubuntuguide.org?
<jiyuu0> yub
<enrico> jiyuu0: the name is cool!  What's going to be there?
<jiyuu0> the unofficial ubuntu 4.10 starter guide
<jiyuu0> moving there
<jiyuu0> with new look
<enrico> jiyuu0: wow!  I didn't see that earlier, but other people here say it's a very nice guide!
<enrico> jiyuu0: did you write it all by yourself?
<jiyuu0> :)
<jiyuu0> 1 or 2 topic contributed
<enrico> (for other subscribers: http://desktopos.com/ubuntu-starter-guide/)
<jiyuu0> the new version printable
<jiyuu0> nope...
<jiyuu0> kitech
<jiyuu0> is the main
<jiyuu0> it's more updated there
<enrico> Right: so: http://kitech.com.my/ubuntu/4.10/index.html
<jiyuu0> yub
<enrico> jiyuu0: is that allright?
<jiyuu0> 2.0 is coming up
<jiyuu0> yes
<jiyuu0> but it's getting long... 41 pages
<jiyuu0> thinkin to split it
<enrico> jiyuu0: that's a really interesting approach to writing tutorials!
<lulu> jiyuu0:Hi Chua - welcome :o)
<enrico> jiyuu0: there's Andrea here that wanted to do some documentation with the same approach, he may join in later
<jiyuu0> cool
<lulu> jiyuu0: it looks great. Who has worked on it with you and where have you got your data from?
<jiyuu0> so far.. alone
<jiyuu0> the data... all around
<jiyuu0> ubuntulinux... ubuntuforums
<lulu> wow - that's a lot of work.
<jiyuu0> here and there
<lulu> the mailing lists, FAQs, How Tos?
<jiyuu0> ya
<jiyuu0> just want to compile 1 starter guide for users
<jiyuu0> so that they need not source around
<jiyuu0> save em time
<lulu> excellent. Thanks for your hard work. Would you like some of the developers to have a look through it from a technical standpoint to help check it? or have you already contacted some Ubuntu developers?
<douglas> hi people !
<jiyuu0> that a great idea
<douglas> is there any brazilian portuguese project on ubuntu ?
<jiyuu0> u want to have a preview look on 2.0?
<jiyuu0> suppose to launch today... but hosting haven enable the site yet
<lulu> douglas: http://www.ubuntulinux.org/support/local 
<lulu> jiyuu0:Before you launch, it would be good to check this document to ensure that the advice you give is completely accurate....
<jiyuu0> lulu, given u the link
<lulu> jiyuu0: this one is working: http://desktopos.com/ubuntu-starter-guide/#jre
<jiyuu0> maybe server down
<jiyuu0> shud find reliable server
<jiyuu0> :(
<lulu> jiyuu0: We are very keen to keep documentation available on the ubuntu site. Would you be willing to have us host it and you can maintain it and get help from the ubuntu community to comment on it?
<jiyuu0> but i've registerd the .org
<jiyuu0> lulu, the link is up
<jiyuu0> temporary there while waiting to be moved
<sivang> enrico : how do I set another mail account in mutt?
<lulu> jiyuu0: Ok - well that's cool. It would be good for us to link to it from our wiki. When it's activated, will you place a link in the Ubuntu documenation area on the wiki? so people can find it easily?
<jiyuu0> ok
<cenerentola> hi there
<lulu> jiyuu0: It looks great. Well done. Please could you send an email to trademarks@ubuntulinux.org to ensure that trademark use of the logo is tracked and explain a little about your project.
<lulu> jiyuu0: Here's some more information: http://www.ubuntulinux.org/ubuntu/TrademarkPolicy/
<jiyuu0> oh... ok
<cenerentola> jiyuu0: are u the unofficial ubuntu guide guy?
<cenerentola> jiyuu0: really a good job
<jiyuu0> thank u :)
<lulu> thanks! and good luck with the document - it really will be fantastic for the ubuntu community. Thank you!
<jiyuu0> it's my contribution back to the community
<cenerentola> TheManu: are you "avaible"?
<jiyuu0> the hosting for ubuntuguide.org is up... yeah
<jiyuu0> temp page http://ubuntuguide.org/temp/
<cenerentola> "<A HREF="javascript:history.forward()">You Text Here</A> "
<cenerentola> if you want to show text as back button
<jiyuu0> thank...
<jiyuu0> now configuring the new site
<cenerentola> "<A HREF="javascript:history.back()"><IMG SRC="http://yoursite.com/image1.gif" border="0"></A>" if you want to have an image
<jiyuu0> thanks
<cenerentola> ull be linked by http://ubuntu.btlug.it ... well the url is actually under heavy workings... the interface u see now is old
<jiyuu0> checkin now
<jiyuu0> italian
<cenerentola> very very bad-looking site..
<cenerentola> and empty at the moment
<cenerentola> they taken/dumped away part of the fs
<jiyuu0> seems ok
<jiyuu0> clean
<plovs> jiyuu0, nice site
<sivang> plovs : where are you? you have the key with you?
<plovs> sivang, yes, i'm in the hall on the 1st floor
<sivang> ok, good to know you have the key with you
<ChrisH> Here we go. :)
<sivang> hey ChrisH!
<jiyuu0> An early Christmas gift to all the Ubuntu Community Users...
<jiyuu0> Announcing http://ubuntuguide.org (Unofficial Ubuntu Starter Guide)
<jiyuu0> *Previously located at http://kitech.com.my/ubuntu/4.10/index.html
<plovs> jiyuu0, looks good
<jiyuu0> thanks
<enrico> jiyuu0: COOL!
<enrico> jiyuu0: the new page layout is also very nice!
<jiyuu0> =)
<enrico> now we've got to figure out where we can put the link around the Ubuntu website
<jiyuu0> glad u all it
<jiyuu0> i mean
<jiyuu0> glad u all like it
* jiyuu0 gone to bed
<enrico> jiyuu0: good night!
<enrico> jiyuu0: good night and thanks again!
<sivang> enrico : ping me when we go to eat ,please
<enrico> sivang: <ping>
<enrico> sivang: we are not offended if you decided to pay us a visit sometimes anyway :)
<sivang> enrico : ofcourse! I apologize, I am curretnly with paul sladen working otwards tommorow's W2P bof..
<sivang> enrico : I was sure it was one more day from me, but took a look on the wiki and 
* sid77 hi!
* sid77 bye
#ubuntu-doc 2005-12-19
<mgalvin> grrr, no combination of [(attachment|inline|display):image.png here]  works either :-/
<mdke_> [:attachment:image.png here] ?
<mdke_> the first colon?
<mdke_> oh no sorry
<mdke_> scrap that
<mgalvin> i tries like 10-15 different ways to no avail
<mdke_> you need to link to the address
<mdke_> as if it were an external url
<mgalvin> the help* says not to do that, but i will anyway since it seems to be the only way to get it to work
<mdke> yeah i think the help is a bit paranoid
<mdke> think/hope
<mgalvin> +1
<mgalvin> hmm, using the "view" and "get" url makes it show up at the top of the page :-/
<mgalvin> seems i can only display them by themseleve on a wiki page
<mgalvin> themseleves
<mdke> hmm
<mdke> example?
<mgalvin> never mind, that doesn't work either it just shows the link
<mgalvin> [https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DapperFlight2?action=AttachFile&do=view&target=flight2-usplash-big.png https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DapperFlight2?action=AttachFile&do=view&target=flight2-usplash-thumb.png] 
<mdke> gah
<mgalvin> same with [attachment:...png https://...]  :-/
<mgalvin> what about the idea of just storing the images on d|h.u.c
<mdke> okay
<mgalvin> how much bandwidth does it have?
<mdke> lots
<mdke> it's the ram that is the issue ;)
<mgalvin> ah
<mdke> hmm
<mdke> do you want to send me a tar or something?
<mgalvin> i can or you can just grab them from the wiki
<mgalvin> i am not done with them yet
<mgalvin> so maybe i will just send you a tar when i am done
<mdke> ok i'll upload them tomorrow then
<mgalvin> ok, sounds good, back to finishing writing it
<jsgotangco> robitaille, USERS ARE IDIOTS
<jsgotangco> hehe
<robitaille> I got all sort of comments  all day long at work...we're  are a mostly KDE shop except me :)
<jsgotangco> vmware are idiots then
<jsgotangco> heh
<jsgotangco> i tried out the image though..its pretty neat
<robitaille> every 6 months or so, I give KDE a try for a while, and everytime I go back to Gnome.  Been like that  for years.  Obviously I'm an idot
<robitaille> I tried VMplayer a few weeks back, but it didn't like my 256meg computer...
<jsgotangco> i got a 2GB desktop, i gave the player 256 and its pretty useful
<mgalvin> DapperFlight2 is i think mostly all set, if anyone could review it that would be great, thnx
<mgalvin> mdke: how shall I send you the images?
<jjesse> mgalvin: it looks great, i was looking it as you were changing
<mgalvin> :)
<mgalvin> hmm, does anyone else around have upload access to d.u.c?
<mdke> mgalvin_away, tar is fine
<mgalvin> mdke: sent
<mgalvin> was there ever a consensus on wiki licensing?
* mgalvin sees tumble weeds blowing bye ;)
<Burgwork> nope
<mgalvin> is it ok for me to stick a by-sa on a page?
<Burgwork> nope
<mgalvin> ok then
<LaserJock> hi theCore 
<theCore> hello!
<theCore> LaserJock, how it's going with the PackagingGuide ?
<LaserJock> well, I worked on the introduction a bit
<LaserJock> but I've been pretty busy with work and such
<theCore> i'm quite busy right now too with some french work ...
<LaserJock> sometime after the 1st of the year there is going to be a MOTU Open Day for people interested in helping the MOTU to get help, mentoring, etc.
<LaserJock> It would be great to have a rough draft of the Packaging Guide to have for them to use and test
<theCore> sure
<theCore> we just need to work on some examples and put explanations
<LaserJock> yep
<LaserJock> "just" ;-)
<theCore> i was thinking that we could have a "testing" reporistory server for the guide, it would make the guide more pratical
<LaserJock> ?
<LaserJock> what do you mean?
<theCore> so the readers could upload their work, and test it as they would use the real ubuntu server
<LaserJock> I think that that is what REVU is for
<theCore> ah, okay ...
<theCore> why my ideas always exist? :|
<LaserJock> that happens to me all the time ;-)
<theCore> some time ago, i though about an open source website project
<theCore> i realized later that was called a wiki
<LaserJock> lol
<theCore> I was kinda disappointed, but at same time I was happy to know that idea was great
<LaserJock> yeah, that happens a lot to me with bug reports
<mdke> Burgwork, well said :D
<mdke> mgalvin, actually I'm going to upload the images to the svn server, that ok?
<jjesse> wow someone's responding to old messages
<mgalvin> mdke: fine by me, just let me know the url I can use to hit them from the wiki
<mdke> k
<mdke> /ubuntu/images
<mdke> not yet tho
<mgalvin> k
<jjesse> mgalvin: on the page you have the link for flight2 for kubuntu, but none of the screen shots are kubuntu specific
<jjesse> mgalvin: should there be a seperate wiki (kubuntuDapperFlight2)??
<Burgwork> mdke, about mgalvin and licensing?
<mgalvin> jjesse: Kamion added that in, you can create a kubuntu version if you would like to, i don't use kubuntu and don't have time to do that too
<jjesse> mgalvin: i'll work on it tonight then
<mgalvin> the release it going to be very soon
<mgalvin> ok cool
<Burgwork> jjesse, flight 2 is likely to be out by then
<mgalvin> jjesse: if you do manage to sqeeze it in by then, the doc only covers the flight 1-2 delta, not everything since breezy
<jjesse> mgalvin: i'll see what i can squeeze in
<mdke> Burgwork, yeah :)
<mgalvin> jjesse: too late i guess :)
<jjesse> to late for what?
<mgalvin> colin just sent out the announcement
<jjesse> ah just saw it
<jjesse> oh well
<mgalvin> although of course you can still do it
<jjesse> i'll see how this evening comes across
<mgalvin> mdke: any eta on those images?
<Burgwork> hmm, wonder if jerome is going on this asian business trip
<mdke> damn
<mdke> the damn images haven't arrived mgalvin
<mdke> come back!
<LaserJock> lol
<mdke> my email is playing up again :(
<LaserJock> sweet, I see a new ubuntu-docs just hit debian-changes
<mdke> in dapper yeah
<mdke> breezy one coming tomorrow :D
<LaserJock> cool
<mdke> s/debian/dapper i hope
<LaserJock> doh, yeah
<mdke> aha
<mdke> mgalvin!
<mdke> get my mail?
<mgalvin> hey mdke!
* mgalvin goes to check email
<mdke> mgalvin, don't bother
<mdke> the message was: your mail hasn't arrived yet (my mail is crap): upload em yourself to repo
<mgalvin> read it, ok, i'll commit them in just a sec
<mgalvin> any place special they should go?
<mdke> yeah
<mdke> ubuntu/images/
<mgalvin> mdke: done!
<mgalvin> i gotta run for a few min
<mdke> cool nice one
<mgalvin> be back in about 30 min
#ubuntu-doc 2005-12-20
<mdke> mgalvin, images are up
<mgalvin> mdke: sorry, where exactly are they
<mdke> http://doc.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/images/C/
<mgalvin> thnx
<Burgwork> salut rob1 
<mdke> hi rob1 
<mgalvin> ok the images are now getting pulled from d.u.c
<mgalvin> thnx mdke
<mdke> cool
<mdke> they are taking ages to load ;)
<mdke> that stupid server responds slowly
<mgalvin> yea i see
<mgalvin> maybe i should just use my server for now, it looks bad to have it take this long
<mdke> the page has been open 3 mins or so, still no images
<mgalvin> been 30 seconds now :-/, i am going to roll it back to use my server for the time being
<mgalvin> k reverted for now
<mgalvin> oh well
<mdke> sorry bout that
<mgalvin> no prob, not your fault
<mgalvin> as long as I don't go over i think 20GB transfer/m i don't mind
<mdke> that damn doc server is just not responding at all right now
<mgalvin> does it look ok for you know that i reverted it?
<mdke> yeah
<mgalvin> k, cool
<mdke> are the thumbnails on the wiki?
<mgalvin> yea, and they link to the full images
<mdke> eh?
<mdke> looks to me like the thumbnails are on your server too
<mdke> might be an idea to have them hosted on the wiki, to save space, if poss
<mgalvin> oh, sorry, yes all the images are on my sever
<mdke> it might save you bandwidth to have the thumbs on the wiki
<mgalvin> no worries for now, got plenty to spare for the time being
<mdke> not everyone will click :)
<mgalvin> true, but was that whole problem with not being able to use the attachments in a link
<mdke> -> bed
<mgalvin> night
<mdke> mgalvin, you should be able to do [http://yoursite/bigimage https://wiki.ubuntu.com/whatevertheaddressis.png] 
<mdke> night
<jsgotangco> jdub, yo!
<jdub> yo!
<LaserJock> is there a reason to have "<!ENTITY ubuntu '<phrase>Ubuntu</phrase>'>
<LaserJock> other than not having to capitalize?
<jdub> LaserJock: branding
<LaserJock> jdub: how so?
<jdub> if someone creates a derivative called "Shockmaster 3000", they can replace all the ubuntu bits with Shockmaster 3000
<LaserJock> ahh, ok
<LaserJock> so it's easier for them to use our stuff ;-)
<jdub> indeed
<LaserJock> ok, well as long as I know it is there for a reason
<LaserJock> hi theCore 
<theCore> LaserJock, hello
<jsgotangco> wow guys the docs in flight 2 are awesome
<jsgotangco> hey all
<jjesse> hiya jsgotangco
<jsgotangco> hey jjesse 
<jsgotangco> what's up?
<jjesse> not much, just installed flight2 of kubuntu
<jsgotangco> how did it go?
<jjesse> smooth
<jsgotangco> mine was pretty bad
<jsgotangco> for this laptop
<jsgotangco> got no sound
<jjesse> really? this is an old dell desktop that i use for testing, worked fine
<jsgotangco> i did an oem and its currently broken
<jsgotangco> would it be a good time to update the quickguide?
<jjesse> yeah i think it would be
<jjesse> quickguide and release notes
<jsgotangco> ok
<jsgotangco> i should get flight 2 of kubuntu later then
<jjesse> i haven't had much time to work on docs also do to some things been working on windows partition all week
<jsgotangco> hmm it would be nice if we could do something like what matt galvin did on the wiki
<jjesse> started on KubuntuDapperFlight2 but then didn't get a chance to finish
<jjesse> i didn't know that dapper flight2 was so readay to be releasedd
<jjesse> maybe i'm not subscribing to the right mailing lists or something
<jjesse> but i found out whne mgalvin started working on it
<jjesse> or posted about it
<jsgotangco> its ok no rush i guess we 2 are the kubuntu doc people still
<jjesse> i got another user who wants to work on the desktop guide for kubuntu docs,  i gotta email him again
<jjesse> so what mailing list would i need to subscribe to know when the next flight is comming out so i can work up a KubuntuFlight3 or whatever wiki page beofre the announcment??
<mgalvin> ubuntu-devel-announce@lists.ubuntu.com
<mgalvin> but it was also sent to -users
<mgalvin> its called Flight CD 2
<mgalvin> from colin
<jjesse> ubuntu-users?
<mgalvin> yea
<mgalvin> the email header said it was cc'd to -users
<jjesse> how did you know about it before it was released so you could have it done before the announcement?
<mgalvin> jjesse: i hang around on #ubuntu-devel -kernel -boot and had been working on a problem with colin and fabio 
<jjesse> hmm i didn't see much on #kubuntu-devel on flight2 being ready, i guess i must have missed it someplace
<LaserJock> hi theCore 
<theCore> LaserJock, hello
<theCore> LaserJock, are you working on the PG ?
<LaserJock> little bit
<theCore> cool
<LaserJock> I think I got the intro done for now and am starting on Getting Started
<LaserJock> theCore: have you done anything more on the PG?
<LaserJock> theCore: wb
<theCore> LaserJock, yes ?
<LaserJock> have you done any more work on the PG?
<theCore> LaserJock, i'm working on some examples
<theCore> nothing fancy, however...
<LaserJock> using what?
<theCore> debhelper
<LaserJock> k
<theCore> it's just a matter to getting the proper commands, and put some explainations around them 
<theCore> how should we make the reader get the hello pkg ?
<theCore> `apt-get source hello' or from a tarball from the web ?
<LaserJock> apt-get source I think
<LaserJock> it is the easiest
<theCore> however, it doesn't represent the reality of a maintainer ...
<LaserJock> well, for the most part it actually does
<LaserJock> there really aren
<LaserJock> that many new packages
<LaserJock> it is usually merges and bugfixes that are done
<theCore> then, we should put the two examples: one with apt-get, and another with wget
<LaserJock> I think it can be all in one example
<theCore> hmm, how we would do that ?
<LaserJock> I mean you basically go through what all the elements of the /debian directory are
<LaserJock> I mean when you do apt-get source you get the tarball so there really isn't a difference
<theCore> that right, and with the package from scratch example, spliting the example shouldn't be necessary
<theCore> we use `hello-debhelper', right ?
<LaserJock> I think it is easier to explain the /debian directory than have the reader make it. maybe we can have a little box with some of the "from scratch" stuff
<LaserJock> theCore: I think so, I haven't taken a look at it yet
<LaserJock> I just used hello
<LaserJock> but I think hello-debhelper should be good too
<LaserJock> I think we might have to create a hello-cdbs ourselves
<theCore> there is `hello-dbs' is it for cdbs ?
<LaserJock> no it is for dbs, which is different
<LaserJock> it is crazy how many different systems there are for packaging
#ubuntu-doc 2005-12-21
<Burgwork> LaserJock, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/HowToBuildDebianPackagesFromScratch
<mdke> evening all
<LaserJock> hi
<LaserJock> Burgwork: yeah, seen it.
<LaserJock> thanks
<LaserJock> mdke: just got an email from breezy-updates, cool
<mdke> ah good
<mdke> now to get it approved...
<Burgwork> LaserJock, mind merging the relevant parts into your own doc and then turning that into a redirect?
<mdke> i thought their doc wasn't on the wiki
<LaserJock> Burgwork: hmm, well I will certainly cover the relevant parts but I'm not sure about a redirect
<Burgwork> mdke, that is some other doc
<Burgwork> LaserJock, they cover the same subject material
<mdke> LaserJock, we don't want wiki pages with the same stuff if possible, it's confusing
<LaserJock> is it usually ok to redirect wiki to doc.u.c
<LaserJock> mdke: well, honestly the Packaging guide will probably replace many wiki pages
<LaserJock> that is one of the main points
<LaserJock> there is packaging info literally all over the wiki
<LaserJock> but it is scattered and sometimes wrong
<mdke> redirecting to doc.u.c is not really possible
<mdke> you can link there obviously
<mdke> it would be nice to tidy up some of the packaging info around the wiki, especially the wrong bits
<LaserJock> yeah, that is one of my tasks
<LaserJock> I need to work on w.u.c/MOTU/DocTodo also
* mdke reboots
<LaserJock> hmm, so maybe I just make a wiki page that has links to all the Packaging wiki pages
<mdke> LaserJock, something like https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DeveloperResources
<mdke> or https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DevelopersDocumentation
<LaserJock> argghh, there is just too many to keep track off
<mdke> just pick one :)
<LaserJock> but I'm trying to pool info together, decide what is correct and what isn't and get it in a good form
<LaserJock> DeveloperResources is a good starting point
<LaserJock> shoot, there is DeveloperDocumentation and DevelopersDocumentation
<mdke> heh
<LaserJock> man I wish the wiki could be cleaned up
<LaserJock> I liked BetterWikiDocs, btw
<mdke> ah cool
<Burgwork> LaserJock, it will come, with better tools
<mhz> any one here working on edubunt ucookbook?
<Burgwork> mhz, jsgotangco is/was
<mhz> yup
<jsgotangco> mhz, at the moment, its kjcole and elkner in a bzr rep
<mhz> kjcole and jelkner too
<mhz> so you dont know which branch it is?
<mhz> hmmm, interesting... https://launchpad.net/products/?text=edubuntu
<mhz> shows both doc teams working on edubuntu
<mhz> jsgotangco: http://pchb1f.gallaudet.edu/~kjcole/Edubuntu/Cookbook/ is the branch
<mdke> hey jerome
<jsgotangco> mhz, like i said in a previous email, its a totally different document to what I have started
<jsgotangco> mdke, hey dude, you've been busy lately what's up?
<mdke> workin ;)
<mdke> nearly christmas tho
<mdke> how's your job going?
<jsgotangco> yes, ive been pretty busy myself
<mhz> jsgotangco: so you want me to collaborate where?
<jsgotangco> mhz, i cannot commit to edubuntu atm, i'm just overwhelmed by commitments
<mdke> mhz, it's up to you
<mdke> makes sense to work on the active doc tho
<jsgotangco> mdke, job is good i've been exposed to a lot of mobile porn lately though
<mdke> lol
<mdke> jsgotangco, you say that like it's a bad thing
<jsgotangco> mdke, yeah especially if one section of the company devotes to gay porn
<mhz> hehehe
<mdke> lol
<mhz> eeeek
<mdke> all legal i hope
<jsgotangco> but i'm just a solutions architect, i make the infrastructure decisions irregardless of whats the content heh
<jsgotangco> mdke, sure of course, its perfectly normal to have such an adult mobile culture in au
<mdke> :)
<mdke> these aussies....
<jsgotangco> think of it as mobile king's cross hah
<jsgotangco> but its only like 2% of the business most of it are targeted to teens
<mdke> ouch
<mdke> sounds like the porn side is better
<jsgotangco> hahaha
<jsgotangco> we have this old ivr machine which is an interesting piece of work
<jsgotangco> i wouldn't delve into details but i won't be calling an adult chat line for sure after learning who's behind those voices...
<mdke> hahaha
<mdke> scary
<jsgotangco> yeah dude i'm pretty shocked as well
<jsgotangco> hehe
<jsgotangco> imagine people pay $3au for that crap
<jsgotangco> per minute
<mdke> hmm
<mdke> does sound a bit silly
<jsgotangco> interestingly enough we still get good revenue from the old system, but mobile has been the cash cow
<jsgotangco> mdke, how come you're still not aggregated?
<mdke> jsgotangco, apparently planet is broken still
<mdke> i find it weird because planet is the simplest software ever to run, you just need a cronjob and access to config.ini, and you're away
<jsgotangco> yeah
<mdke> it's annoying me recently because I want to post about so many things related to ubuntu-it and ubuntu-docs
<mdke> actually I might send a few emails to sounder now
<jsgotangco> ah k so people are stuck at the moment with our crappy posts
<mdke> not crappy at all :)
* jsgotangco starts to blog linus you're developing for idiots
<jsgotangco> mdke, we should seriously start looking into bzr
<jsgotangco> its been very very usable lately
<mdke> yes
<mdke> i've made a few brief excursions onto the wiki
<mdke> so far I'm not convinced...
<jsgotangco> really?
<mdke> I would be convinced if we had more stable contributors, so that people would take charge of supervising merges to particular docs
<mdke> but a centralised system works well for us, IMO, until that happens
<jsgotangco> yes
<mdke> we'll see
<jsgotangco> perhaps till 6.10
<mdke> the one big advantage to bzr
<mdke> is LP
<mdke> much better integration there
<mdke> LaserJock, what is the status of the packaging guide in our svn?
<LaserJock> very old
<LaserJock> theCore and I am doing a complete rewrite, however I think it is best to keep the old one up until we have a rough draft
<mdke> do you have a new version you wanna upload?
<mdke> ah ok
<mdke> LaserJock, where is your current work?
<LaserJock> on my computer ;-)
<mdke> oh right
<mdke> wiki page?
<mdke> any spec?
<jsgotangco> mdke, awesome work on flight2 docs
<LaserJock> we are using https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuPackagingGuide/Outline as an outline
<LaserJock> I am currently getting feedback from -motu on it
<jsgotangco> mdke, and yelp speed has improved even on xml
<mdke> jsgotangco, you're not going to convince me :) we really need to ship html IMHO
<mdke> LaserJock, thanks
<mdke> jeez this is the worst spec ever
<mdke> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocsPackaging
<jsgotangco> mdke, well i do admit the html css is great
<jsgotangco> eh? there's nothing in it
<jsgotangco> and it seems to have my name as well
<jsgotangco> tee hee
<mdke> i'm deleting it, ok by you?
<mdke> it's done anyway
<jsgotangco> np
<jsgotangco> maybe you can put on a wiki how your method
<mdke> it's quite standard I think
<jsgotangco> blah awesome english
<mdke> anyway, anything important is in debian/README
<jsgotangco> yeah
<jsgotangco> PSG-01   mdke (Matthew East)   
<mdke> hmm?
<mdke> i can't see most of those characters
<jsgotangco> its in hangeul (korean)
<HrdwrBoB> because your client is not UTF8
<jsgotangco> i think they were discussing about docs
<jsgotangco> i've been idling at the korean channel lately although most of the time i have no idea what they are discussing
<mdke> HrdwrBoB, term_charset = UTF-8
<mdke> jsgotangco, that was in there eh?
<jsgotangco> yeah in another server
<jsgotangco> ive been helping out the team
<mdke> ah cool
<mdke> i'm very big in korea
* mdke coughs
<mdke> jsgotangco, so tell us about this asia business tour thing
<mdke> who's going?
<jsgotangco> sabdfl and some canonical staff
<mdke> looks like a pretty damn cool idea
<mdke> is it top secret who is going?
<jsgotangco> i wont be surprised if the devs based in london would come
<jsgotangco> not at all
<jsgotangco> we just have no idea who else is going
<mdke> ah right
<mdke> are you travelling too?
<jsgotangco> probably cvd would come
<jsgotangco> most likely around asean only
<jsgotangco> (south east asian nations)
<mdke> cool
<jsgotangco> it doesnt cost that much to travel between ASEAN nations
* mdke nods
<mdke> i gotta sleep
<mdke> see you later
<jsgotangco> night
<LaserJock> mdke: here is a quick list of packaging resources on the wiki and elsewhere: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuPackagingGuide/Resources
<Madpilot> http://paste.ubuntu-nl.org/5817
<Madpilot> ^^^ getting that validation error w/ common-tasks.xml
<Madpilot> WTF does it mean?
<Madpilot> I copied the layout exactly from the next entry down, and it still doesn't validate...
<Madpilot> nevermind, fix the damn thing... f'ing XML... ;)
<Madpilot> fixed, even...
<LaserJock> what was wrong?
<LaserJock> I usually get stuff like that when I forgot to use / to close a tag
<Madpilot> no, I misspelled a tag :(
<Madpilot> fixed now, diff generated, it'll be off to the list in a moment
<LaserJock> doh, that will do it ;-)
<Madpilot> patch sent - BitTorrent now has a basic entry in common tasks
<LaserJock> Madpilot: cool
<Madpilot> LaserJock: do you own an iPod? if yes, do you want to write that section? there's nothing there now... :)
<LaserJock> Madpilot: unfortunately no, maybe after Christmas though ;-)
<Madpilot> hehe
<Madpilot> was considering treating myself to an iRiver for Xmas - they play .ogg, I have about 30Gb of music in .ogg here :)
<LaserJock> yeah, that is what I am trying to figure out
<LaserJock> I have quite a bit of .ogg too ~2GB
<LaserJock> I wish iPods would play .ogg, that would rock
<Madpilot> some of the iRivers look pretty cool - about the size of an iPod shuffle, but with actual controls & a screen
<jsgotangco> yeah
<jsgotangco> iRivers rock
<LaserJock> like what model?
<Madpilot> I was looking at the 799 or 899 - they're identical except for the external skin... (marketing causes strange things...)
<Madpilot> only 1Gb flash drive, but that's enough for a lot of .ogg files...
<LaserJock> hmm
<LaserJock> but with an iPod nano you get 2GB
<Madpilot> but no .ogg
<LaserJock> true
<LaserJock> I would like to support .ogg from a philosophical stand point
<Madpilot> I'm supporting .ogg because I've already go masses of music ripped to it...
<Madpilot> got, not go...
<LaserJock> well, I can make .mp3's if I need to, but ...
<Madpilot> likewise
<LaserJock> maybe a H10 would be better
<LaserJock> oh, wait. They don't say the support .ogg
<Madpilot> I think they do
<Madpilot> I just want a music player, a tiny colour screen is a waste of money for me - that's why I'm looking at the 799/899
<LaserJock> they just say MP3, WMA, and ASF on their website
<LaserJock> Madpilot: true, I just want something that is going to last a while
<LaserJock> hmm, the battery lifetime is much better with the 799/899 than the others
<sqrat1121> greetings... what's the best way to install fop on breezy? I'm semi-newb but I'll rtfm and do whatever it takes. Any advice?
<Madpilot> meeting in five minutes?
<jjesse> yup
<Madpilot> cool
<Madpilot> good morning, and all that
<jjesse> morning Madpilot 
<jjesse> hmm where's the setting in konversatation to keep the window always on top?
<jjesse> morning jsgotangco 
<jsgotangco> hey
<mdke> hello all
<mhz> hi
<mdke> how's the meeting?
<Madpilot> no meeting yet, but there's a few of us in -meeting already
<mdke> who's around?
<mhz> mdke: can the wiki be used as personal Blog to register anything regarding your hardware testings, kernel configs, etc?
<mdke> mhz, sure
<mhz> mdke: okis.
<mhz> mdke: and do you have 'ground rules' we can use to invite necomers to wikis, not to use wiki names like tHISiSmYwikiPAGE
<mhz> ?
<mdke> not to my knowledge
<mdke> except for WikiGuide
<Madpilot> there's some mention of "good wiki page titles" in WikiGuide, isn't there?
* mdke can't remember
* mhz opening tab
<mhz> Could we have a bot to provide us with wiki URL's ?
<Madpilot> yeah - 4th bullet point in Style & Guidelines
<mhz> indeed
<mhz> 5th
<mdke> jsgotangco, iosn looks cool
<jsgotangco> except it lacks money
<jsgotangco> sadly, its terribly undermanned
<mdke> oh well, at least it exists
<jsgotangco> mdke, yeah jdub's wife is also involved with it
<mdke> ok
<jdub> mdke: you'll be pleased to know that i am about to try and unfuck the planet situation again (knowing that elmo is around to pick on him if anything's still broken)
<mdke> jdub, very pleased :) seriously what is the trouble with giving you write access to a server? you're a trustworthy chap
<mdke> henrik has access to wikiconfig.py iirc
<jsgotangco> jdub, how about a hackergotchi/
<jdub> i have write access to a different server, where planet will be moved, but it is not set up correctly
<jdub> jsgotangco: for you?
<jsgotangco> yeah
<mdke> i was gonna say jsgotangco 
<mdke> nice hackergotchi
<jsgotangco> i have one in lp
<mdke> i saw it on the wiki page
<mdke> jdub, anyway, awesome news, thanks
<jsgotangco> you think that's good? i thought it was bad...not really good at gimp
<mdke> it's loads better than mine
<mdke> damn laptop touchpads...
<jsgotangco> jdub, yeah it sucks to look like a chess pawn in planet
<jdub> jsgotangco: yeah dude, that's a nice one!
<jdub> well done!
<jdub> noice
<jdub> jsgotangco: was that your first? most people don't get it right on the first go.
<jsgotangco> 2nd
<jdub> ahr
<jdub> cool original photo too
<jsgotangco> i tried to smoothen it further but it looked worse
<jsgotangco> gaussian blurs can be double edged swords
<jdub> i think the best hackergotchis are the ones where, if you look at the original complete photo, it looks like the hackergotchi stamped onto a generic background image
* jsgotangco thought most hackgotchis in p.g.o. aren't gimp jobs
<jdub> well
<jdub> hrm
<jsgotangco> they look to clean to me
<jdub> so you do know that most gnome developers are actually real people, with complete bodies and so on, right? :-)
<jsgotangco> haha
<Madpilot> really? :P
<jdub> little known fact
<jdub> we don't live in jars, either
<jsgotangco> i finally believed that when i got to eat dimsum with jdub
<jsgotangco> heh
<jdub> dude
<jdub> seriously
<jdub> i will tell you again
<jdub> that i WASN'T FLINCHING at the jars
<jdub> AT ALL
* jsgotangco cracks up
<jsgotangco> jdub, have you seen DapperFlight2 wiki page?
<jjesse> it rocks
<jdub> hmm, it has been sitting in a browser tab, unread
<jdub> fie on these so-called "innovations"
<jdub> thanks for reminding me :)
<jdub> WHO WROTE THIS?
<jsgotangco> its mgalvin 
<jdub> TELL ME NOW
<jsgotangco> he did the whole thing
<jdub> dude
<jdub> seriously
<mgalvin> hey
<jdub> i am going to go to galvinia
<jdub> and kiss you
<jdub> on a mountain
<mgalvin> glad you like it, but my wife might get jealous ;)
<jdub> she can come too
<jdub> i'll bring pia
<jjesse> as long as you don't compare who is the better kisser
<jdub> it'll be great
<jsgotangco> hahahhaa
<mgalvin> hehe
<jdub> then we can base jump from MOUNT GALVINIA
<jdub> dude
<jdub> see
<jdub> *most* of this is about BENEFITS
<jsgotangco> yeah
<jdub> which is THE BOMB
<jdub> mgalvin: only recommendation i'd make is that in the few places you're focusing on features ahead of benefits, switch them around
<jsgotangco> benefits first, features last?
<jdub> well, first you say what the benefit is, then back it up by describing the feature that enables the benefit
<jdub> FASTER STARTUP TIME
<mgalvin> good point, i'll keep that in mind for DapperFlight3 :)
<jsgotangco> ahhh
<jdub> - hardware detection speed, gnome desktop optimisations
<jdub> - bootchart for developer analysis of startup issues
<jdub> - blah blah
<jdub> then your contents list is all benefits too :-)
<jdub> faster startup time
<jdub> new applications
<jdub> improved look'n'feel
<jdub> increased hardware support
<jsgotangco> jdub, one thing i notice on *most* software writeups are about features though..that can overwhelm the reader...
<jdub> yeah
<jsgotangco> i get your point now
<jsgotangco> :)
<jdub> but this is so on the money in terms of presentation and focus
<jdub> mgalvin: ROCK ON!
<mgalvin> thnx :)
<jdub> mgalvin: do you generally get this out post-release?
<jsgotangco> no it got out during flight2 release announcement
<jsgotangco> Kamion mentioned it
<jdub> awesome
<jdub> good
<mgalvin> well its the first full one i have done and it was done right on time
<jjesse> and hopefully if somoene can let me know we can get a kubuntu dapper flight 3
<mgalvin> yea colin mentioned it in the announcement
<jjesse> and link that to kaimon's announcment
<mgalvin> i will usually track the dev pretty closely so I can certainly do them pre-release so the link can be in the announcements
<mgalvin> s/will//
<jdub> mgalvin: i will chat to kamion, ask if he would be willing to sync up more formallyish
<jdub> and when i say "ask" i mean "encourage"
<mgalvin> sounds good
<mdke> mgalvin, how about adding menu improvements (MenusRevisited)
<jdub> good one
<mdke> would come under 4
<mdke> ui improvements
<mgalvin> jdub: i am usually around all day too, so i am easy to get a hold of
<mgalvin> mdke: +1
<jdub> mgalvin: where are you based?
<jsgotangco> new york
<jdub> ui improvements == feature :-)
<mgalvin> ny
<jdub> some day i will get there
<mgalvin> cool
<jdub> haha
<jdub> interesting to see the ubuntu article on slashdot
<mdke> btw is there a good way to report bugs in planet?
<jdub> devel@lists.planetplanet.org
<jdub> i will have to make a launchpad entry for it sometime
<mdke> thanks
<jdub> or maybe i have
<jdub> i forget
* mgalvin worries about ./ effect since the images are still on my sever :-/
<jsgotangco> oh it got into slashdot?
<mdke> mgalvin, i don't think that page has been /.'ed
<jdub> mgalvin: ok, we'll have to sort that out for you
<mgalvin> nope, i don't see it there
<mdke> maybe you can get the images uploaded to the wiki server or somewhere else
<mgalvin> jdub: mdke and I did move the images to doc.ubuntu.com but  that server has speed/mem issues from time to time
<mgalvin> so i am still hosting the images
<mgalvin> they are also in the doc svn repository so anybody can grab them easily
<jsgotangco> it is?
* jsgotangco didnt know that
<jsgotangco> oh right
* jsgotangco remembers downloading a bunch of pngs
<mgalvin> jsgotangco: we put them there the other day but it was taking minutes and the images still were no loading
<mgalvin> so i switched back to my box
<mdke> yeah the server was blocked
<mdke> it's not powerful enough to handle help.u.c
<jsgotangco> i gotta sleep
<jsgotangco> see you later folks
<mgalvin> night
<mdke> ciao
<jsgotangco> jdub, are you joining the asia tour?
<jdub> maybe for bits of it
<jdub> we'll see
<jdub> i'll be busy at lca and possibly other things
<jsgotangco> right
* mgalvin -> lunch
<LaserJock> theCore: ping?
<theCore> LaserJock, pong
<LaserJock> theCore: I added a new page wiki page, UbuntuPackagingGuide/Resources
<theCore> cool
<theCore> that page gonna be helpful
<LaserJock> if you come across web pages or wiki pages that have good packaging info add it to the list
<theCore> sure
<LaserJock> I especially want to nail down the Ubuntu wiki pages
<LaserJock> we need to see what the wiki has and what we will be replacing ;-)
<theCore> it doesn't seem you missed a single wiki page about packaging
<LaserJock> well, I did searchs for package, packaging, and developer
<jdub> http://mail.gnome.org/archives/gnome-doc-devel-list/2005-December/msg00020.html
<LaserJock> jdub: very interesting
<mdke> yep, good news if it works
<LaserJock> would that effect the decision to ship .html?
<mdke> not for me
<jdub> mdke: you're going to have to figure out some reasons why it makes sense, if you want to convince us that it's sane
<mdke> jdub, are you saying that I haven't done that?
<mdke> also, who needs convincing?
<jdub> a) yes, b) desktop team
<mdke> ok
<mdke> jdub, can you justify a) a bit more? I think my post to the desktop list was pretty compelling
<mdke> also, not a single person responded giving one reason to ship xml
<jdub> - if we're going to give the docs stylesheets some love, it should effect the entire installed set (and the easiest way of doing that is through yelp's css)
<jdub> - i don't believe loading speed will continue to be an issue
<jdub> - same format stuff doesn't matter, we can render whatever wherever we want
<mdke> jdub, (a) the entire installed set includes much html already, which we can't customise (b) there is no reason why we shouldn't have a different css for ubuntu-specific docs
<mdke> loading speed is an issue
<jdub> a) the objective is to fix that, by shipping docbook
<mdke> ??
<mdke> you're gonna ship (e.g.) cups docs in docbook?
<jdub> b) there is - why should ubuntu docs be specially different? a consistent ubuntu-branded theme across the docs would be a very positive step
<jdub> where possible, we should ship docbook where available (such as mutt upstream docs, etc)
<jjesse> is anyone doing any upstream docs?
<jdub> i don't think "all the other non-desktop docs" is a reasonable excuse for ubuntu docs :)
<mdke> i really don't follow your arguments
<jdub> i'm not entirely convinced the language stuff is sorted, but i'll have to play again
<mdke> jdub, can we continue on that thread by email, it might be easier to discuss that way
<jdub> ok
<mdke> the documentation team without exception are in favour of html as far as I can see, so it's just a question of convincing you
<jdub> disintegrating a subset of our desktop documentation makes no sense
<mdke> the ubuntu specific documentation is not a subset of desktop documentation
<mdke> and if the desktop documentation itself was integrated, I'll agree, but it's not
<mdke> anyhow, gtg
<jdub> right, so because in terms of content it's not a subset, that's a good enough reason to disintegrate it from the help system?
<mdke> yes, and in any case, I don't think my proposal is correctly described as "disintegration"
<mdke> it works really nicely in the same help viewer
<jdub> a) it looks ugly (potentially fixable)
<mdke> of course its fixable
<jdub> b) you can navigate it the same way, it's pointlessly different
<jdub> s/can/can't/
<jdub> c) it won't benefit from search, other viewer features
<jdub> d) why are we being different for the hell of it?
<mdke> for the hell of it?
<mgalvin> i have always prefered docbook (but thats just me)
<mdke> dude you are really just not listening
<mpt> (b) is a feature, not a bug :-)
<mdke> at least pay some respect
<mpt> (c) is vaporware
<mpt> (d): for reasons already described on the mailing list
<mpt> (including it being LIGHT-STORMINGLY FASTAR)
* mdke looks for search in yelp, doesn't find it
<jdub> mpt: (b) -> let's talk about this seriously
<jjesse> shouldn't search be a basic tennet of help?
<jdub> i know what you want out of the help system
<jjesse> kinda like print
<jdub> but that is *not* what our help system is right now
<jdub> so there's no point pining for the fjords
<jdub> shoving navigation into shitty html doesn't help the situation
<jdub> being needlessly different doesn't help the situation
<mdke> ok, with that I give up
<mdke> you're way too aggressive
<jdub> i think (b) is really important later on, when we don't have HULK-SMASH man pages for graphical software anymore
<jdub> (c) is implemented and going to ship with 2.14
<jdub> (d) isn't sufficiently supported from my POV
<jdub> jjesse: yeah.
<jdub> mpt: and the speed issue is being very soundly addressed
<jjesse> sorry for being the newbie here, but it seems stupid not to be able to search help files and hsouldn't that be a focus of the help system?
<mpt> jdub, cool, any links for that?
<jdub> mdke: i am really listening. but i'm totally not convinced. we really ought to ship optimal help for both environments.
<mpt> jdub, using HTML is a very easy way of improving the navigation. Saying "we can't do that because that's not what our help system is right now" is begging the question, in the original sense of the phrase.
<jdub> mpt: see the link above
<jdub> mpt: no, it's not. as soon as we choose html, we're choosing to stand out from everything else.
<mpt> What "everything else"? Other distros?
<jdub> mpt: you want our help system to be the right thing, right now. it isn't, and there's no point forcing it.
<jdub> every other piece of desktop documentation (rah rah, our docs cover more, sure, but not significantly more, and i regard the differences in the other docs as bugs we need to fix, so why add more by choice, etc.)
<jjesse> wow i just got lost in the converstation
<mpt> If you mean it's worse for some docs to have a table of contents frame and others not, than for all to have a navigation frame, I disagree
<jdub> meanwhile, i'm attempting to start yelp with a different locale, and nothing magic is happening
<jdub> mpt: the combination of not integrating properly into the help system *and* being needlessly different in the process is a net loss
<jdub> mpt: gaining or losing a sidebar... not really important. being different to the rest of the desktop docs for no reason... quite unfortunate.
<mpt> different in what way?
<mpt> presentation?
<mpt> i.e. CSS?
<jdub> document (a) has a nice TOC sidebar
<jdub> document (b) does not
<jdub> we have quite a few document (b) bugs hidden in there
<jdub> because we pull lots of non-gnome docs in
<mpt> IMO, "a nice TOC sidebar" is an oxymoron for on-screen help
<jdub> but adding more document (b) bugs doesn't make sense
<jdub> mpt: which is *irrelevant* right now
<jdub> i know what you want from the help system
<jdub> the current one doesn't give it to you
<jdub> and there's no point forcing it by doing silly things
<mpt> granted, which leaves the question of why using HTML is "silly"
<jdub> facts of life: all our docs are man pages for GUI programs, which sucks, but that's what we've got, and that's what our help viewer is optimised for
<mpt> and if you say "because it doesn't have a sidebar", that's circular logic :-)
<jdub> because by shipping HTML we disintegrate those docs from the help system, we ship stuff that works/appears differently for no good reason
<mpt> What do you mean by "disintegrate ... from the help system"?
<mdke> here you go with the "no good reason" again. pft
<jdub> mdke: because i don't have one that really satisfies my disbelief that we should deviate from the standard
<jdub> mpt: translations, search, etc.
<mdke> translation?
<jdub> i've just been sitting here testing - no evidence that it works
<mpt> jdub, as I understand it, translations are no longer an issue, and search, as previously mentioned, Does Not Exist
<jdub> search will ship with 2.14
<jdub> translations appear to be an issue
<mpt> will Dapper have 2.14?
* jdub is going to get seb to look into it
<jdub> ubuntu ships with the latest gnome, every release dude
<mpt> sorry, I'm not familiar with those version numbers
* mpt hides
<mpt> if search will be in Dapper and will only work with docbook, then I change my opinion
<theCore> I don't know if shipping html docs whould be a good idea ... however it would speed up things but at the cost of losing the centralization of the docs
<jjesse> what did we decide during the meeting and thru the mailing list?
<jjesse> i think the arugments presented in those two locations were good enough to convince people at the meeting today
<mpt> jjesse, HTML, but apparently minus some important evidence
<jdub> jjesse: thing is, we keep going through this every release, and we've yet to have a good reason to diverge from the standard
<mpt> jdub, will search work for docbook only?
<jdub> mpt: highly likely
<jdub> we'll see
<jjesse> will we see by dapper?
<jdub> but that alone won't convince me either
<mpt> docbook-only search would be enough for me to say "use docbook", but it would be the only concrete reason you've presented so far, afaics
<jdub> translation
<jdub> needless divergence
<jdub> even if search and translation are sorted, i want to be convinced why we should just randomly diverge
<mpt> "divergence", "integration", "centralization", all abstract nouns which don't tell me what the precise problem is
<jdub> we have a standard
<theCore> btw, does yelp can read html ?
<jdub> theCore: yes
<mpt> not that I'm the one who needs convincing :-) .., but I can see why mdke is getting annoyed
<jdub> tell me why we need to diverge from the standard
<jjesse> does anyone have the email thread that was started available?
<jdub> because the advantages in the xml or html post aren't sufficient (though i could be ultimately tempted by speed, if everything else was resolved, but at that point, i'd want to ship everything in html)
<jdub> and the problem with that is that we'd be mostly needlessly diverging from upstream
<jjesse> if none of the docs that we write are going upstream does it matter? (silly question I don't really know the answer)
<jdub> jjesse: "xml or html for Ubuntu Guides"
<mpt> I thought we were talking about Ubuntu-specific docs anyway
<jjesse> mpt: that's as far as i knew
<jdub> jjesse: upstream tests a particular setup, if we diverge significantly from that, we're into dangerous territory
<jdub> the fact that we're trying to make decisions exclusively to ubuntu specific content indicates we're on the wrong track, from my POV
<jjesse> jdub: even if that divergence is the documentation that is specific to our distro?
<jjesse> i'm really trying to understand the discussion, i hope it comes across that way
<jdub> jjesse: if there were really good reasons for shipping html, i would want to ship all of our docs in html (and when i say 'our', i mean all the documentation we ship, not ubuntu specific docs)
<jjesse> hopefully my stupid questions don't offend
<mpt> jjesse, http://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-doc/2005-December/004486.html
<jdub> not at all
<jdub> i want to help you guys understand the problem space
<jdub> because the desktop team start flinching and stuff when these things come up
<theCore> i don't get it, what is difference at the end ? normaly we write docbook then export to html, isn't it? so, we wouldn't diverge from upstream ?
<mpt> so mdke's reasons are (1) easier stylability, (2) much faster, (3) can be put on help.ubuntu.com in the same format
<jdub> i guess an important point is that we need to stop thinking about ubuntu-specific docs separately from the rest of the documentation we ship
<jdub> mpt: do you need answers to those?
<mpt> well, I can see (1) isn't necessarily a benefit, if you want to style the docbook stuff in the same way, you have to put in as much if not more effort
<mpt> (2) you've shown some evidence will be addressed
<jdub> (1) -> it's branded css either way. by branding the standard stylesheet, we brand everything in one hit. maximum payoff.
<mpt> (3) is ho-hum, they could be compiled to HTML for help.ubuntu.com in the same way as they'd be compiled to HTML for yelp
<jdub> (2) -> potentially still an issue, but rapidly being addressed upstream, and not worth diverging for at that point, even if marginally faster
<jdub> (3) -> yeah
<jjesse> what if yelp supported searching in html
<jdub> still wouldn't clinch the deal for me
<mpt> and for me (4) it would mean that at least some of the docs didn't have a sidebar, which I regard as an advantage even if some of them still do
<mpt> but, bah
<jjesse> wow i wish we ccould have had this discussion at the meeting this morning
<mpt> none of our docs are help yet anyway, so that's really a non-issue
<jdub> mpt: inconsistent, appeals only to your hope that our documentation will not be man pages for GUI software some time in the future
<mpt> indeed
<jdub> jjesse: i'm disappointed that it keeps coming up without the right people involved in the decision - this stuff has serious desktop/documentation ramifications
<mpt> I don't think consistency is an issue *at all* -- people use the Web just fine despite inconsistent navigation styles
<mpt> but not having actual help pages does mean it's a meaningless point at the moment
<jdub> mpt: inconsistency == bugs
<jdub> as in, people report this stuff
<jdub> "my blah blah doesn't have a navigation tree!"
<jdub> etc.
* mpt wonders if people report that bug to apple
<jdub> don't be fatuous
<mpt> seriously
<mpt> their help's a haphazard mixture of framesets
<mpt> HTML 3.2 city
<jdub> so the thing that really disappoints me here is that it all comes across as an us vs. them thing
<mpt> eh? :-)
<jdub> when really, i'm trying to make sure we have a really rocking doc story on our desktop
<mpt> who's "them"?
<jdub> docteam vs. desktop
<jdub> docteam has made this decision, what, three times now?
<jdub> and to be honest, but not wanting to offend, it has always been a bit misguided
<mpt> I see that now
<mpt> because the docteam didn't know about those things that you're announcing now about yelp in 2.14
<jdub> that's minor
<mpt> lack of information --> bad decisions
<jdub> back in hoary it was a bad idea
<jdub> we don't need to diverge from the standard
<jjesse> there then needs to be beter communication from the dekstop team
<mpt> wait, now you're into the abstract nouns again :-)
<mpt> hoary's yelp was faster at docbook than breezy's
<mpt> in my experience
<jdub> jjesse: whenever this discussion has come up, we've tried to help out - the problem is, we continue to disagree that this is a useful strategy
<jdub> mpt: abstract noun or not, you actually need a reason to diverge from the standard; a good one.
<mpt> which mdke presented
<mpt> and we thought they were good reasons
<mpt> but, in case they weren't, he cross-posted to the desktop list and said "let discussion commence"
<mpt> and there was a deafening silence from the desktop team
<jdub> so we've knocked those down
<jdub> now i'm trying to get at the premise
<mpt> so even if the decision was wrong, it was not the fault of anyone on the doc team.
<jdub> because it's going to suck if this keeps happening
<jjesse> seems like a problem on the deskotp team
<jdub> mpt: i was away when that mail was sent, i don't think seb or daniel want to approach the issue
<jdub> mpt: deafening silence from vuntz, who asked the very same questions i did, but was less demanding about it
* jdub is giving seb and daniel stick atm
<jdub> mdke: there? have skype or sip or gtalk or something?
<jjesse> jdub: i think he went to bed?
<jdub> bummer
<mdke> jdub, yeah I'm here now, but I don't have that, sorry
<mdke> mpt, I _still_ think they are good reasons ;)
<LaserJock> so is there wiki page or something doc team goals or objectives for each doc?
<LaserJock> or status or something
<mdke> DocteamProjects
<mdke> each doc should have a spec, linked on that page
<mdke> (in theory)
<jdub> mdke: hrm, phone?
<LaserJock> hmm, ok. I just wanted to get a better overall feel for what's going on and progress
<mdke> jdub, yeah I have one of those
<mpt> yes, please talk to jdub, mdke
<mdke> ok
<mpt> this is a giant communication problem
<mpt> the more bandwidth, the better :-)
<jdub> it is not too giant :-)
<mdke> jdub, i'm pretty tired tho, maybe just a few more comments in here, then bed?
<jdub> mdke: ok, let me know when you're around next, we'll hook up
<mdke> will do
<mdke> i don't think the communication problem is so big
<jdub> planet is waiting on firewall and baz fixage :-)
<mdke> i read (and so do most others) that gnome-doc-devel list
<jdub> but don't bother elmo/znarl about it :)
<mdke> i won't
<jdub> because they will sautee my testicles in wasabi and soy
<jdub> which is, so i hear, rather uncomfortable
<mdke> i guess so
<jdub> albeit quite tasty
<mdke> ok, on speed. My concerns are (a) that I haven't seen it yet, and (b) that in any case, it is still doing xml->html, which will have at least a non-trivial effect on the speed
<jdub> not that i've tried
<mdke> (a) is not a biggie
<LaserJock> mdke: none of the status links on DocteamProjects work
<mdke> shaun gives quite good statistics in his post
<mdke> LaserJock, yeah they aren't maintained, click the names of the docs for the specs
<mdke> ok, on fragmentation. I don't think jdub's concerns about fragmenting the docs is a problem, because the Ubuntu docs appear in a totally separate section in the yelp homepage to other docs, and also html means that they can be viewed by people who (shock horror) don't run gnome. This is especially important for the server guide.
<mdke> also, it's a gross exageration to call them "man pages for gui's"
<mdke> the whole point is to turn them into "help", as mpt calls it
<mdke> sure, it's not there yet, but it can get there, and working on the basis that it will is a good thing, IMO
<mdke> on customised stylesheets for all documents, I'll believe it when i see it
<jdub> mdke: all the desktop documentation is manpages for guis (this is more of an issue with gnome than ubuntu docs, but we've followed in the same footsteps)
<mdke> did you see the serverguide and desktopguide? their aim is to be help
<jdub> mdke: dpkg -L yelp | grep css
<mdke> jdub, when I saw I'll believe it when I see it, I mean that I'll believe it when I see the work being done to customise it
<mdke> obviously, I know that yelp uses stylesheets
<jdub> serverguide -> if read on the desktop, awesome that it's integrated properly with the documentation viewer, otherwise it's most likely to be read on a website independently of the machine it's on
<jdub> ok, i'll do it
<jdub> it's disasterously easy
<mdke> ok, in the meantime I'll upload an australian translation of html with the next dapper package
<jdub> dude, i tried putting everything in the right place (according to your scheme) for a different translation, as did seb -> no go
<jdub> anyway
<jdub> all of this is "let's ship html -> here are some reasons"
<jdub> not "why should we diverge from the standard"
<mdke> the standard needs reasons too
<mdke> it's the same question if you realise that
<jdub> you want to diverge from the standard, which satisfies the needs of the entire set of desktop documentation
<jdub> i don't think the onus is on the desktop team to prove that it's worth sticking with the standard :)
<mdke> ok two things
<mdke> 1) I accept that the onus is on the changer
<mdke> 2) stop this desktop team vs docteam nonsense
<mdke> there is no such battle
<jdub> i'm not suggesting there's a battle
<jdub> but there are two stakeholders here
<mdke> I disagree
<mdke> we have the same stakes
<jdub> and there's two of us
<jdub> let's not play semantics
<mdke> what I'm saying is
<jdub> desktop team needs to integrate your work
<mdke> we have the same objective, people just think differently
<jdub> you guys need to write cool docs for desktop team
<jdub> that's right
<mdke> doesn't matter what team they are in
<jdub> and we're helping each other solve different parts of the problem
<jdub> that's not the point, please stop assuming i think there's a 'battle' here
<jdub> i am here to solve a problem
<mdke> good
<jdub> the problem, in my mind, is not "how do i help the docteam ship html?"
<mdke> ok well the question I am trying to address is not that one either
<jdub> it's "how do i help the docteam ship their docs in the best possible way for our users?"
<mdke> it is "what is best for the user?"
<jdub> right, so thus far, i've yet to see a reason to diverge from the current standard
<mdke> so what do you say about speed?
<jdub> the only one which *may* have currency is the speed stuff, but that's being fixed, and ultimately, even if it's a tad slower, t
<mdke> in the light of my last comment
<jdub> ot
<mdke> fixed is a loose word
<jdub> it's not worth the inconsistency
<mdke> that's the difference between us
<mdke> i think it is, because I don't think the inconsistency is problematic
<mdke> indeed I think that customising only the ubuntu specific docs has advantages
<jdub> well that's a problem that we need to work through
<jdub> continuing to think about the ubuntu docs team as a project to work on ubuntu docs is not optimal
<mdke> ?
<mdke> oh i see
<LaserJock> could we ship both for for now and see how people like it?
<mdke> LaserJock, that is what we are doing
<jdub> LaserJock: they're both in the current dapper package
<LaserJock> right, but can't we let the user's decide so to speak?
<jdub> LaserJock: no
<mdke> here's the key
<jdub> mdke: one of ubuntu's biggest wins is deep integration; that's where we can do our best work
<mdke> what we need to do is to ensure that people will use the onboard docs, rather than just websites
<jdub> in docs land, i'm seeing more entirely original work than integration, which i think is unfortunate
<mdke> heh
<jdub> not because it doesn't rock, but because there's so much more we could be achieving
<jdub> glue documentation is part of that
<jdub> overview documentation is part of that
<mdke> this all comes back to that magic email you promised to write about 6 months ago, if I'm not mistaken
<jdub> but clearly there are a lot of wins to be had by using what we already have
<jdub> which i did
<mdke> well I haven't heard a lot about glue documentation or overview documentation before
<mdke> sounds good, sure
<jdub> that's the stuff that ties everything else (upstream docs) together
<jdub> they're not technical terms
<mdke> no, i understand what they are
<LaserJock> but not ubuntu docs?
<LaserJock> or ubuntu docs that glue upstream docs together?
<jdub> LaserJock: we're going to need some ubuntu-specific documentation, and i think what we've got so far is focusing on largely the right areas for that
<jdub> but by focusing purely on "ubuntu documentation", we're missing out on the holistic approach
<jdub> we can't write documentation for everything on our system
<LaserJock> ah
<mpt> I don't imagine anyone rewriting man pages
<jdub> anyway, now this is going into la-la land
<mpt> but I do imagine, for example, the Nautilus help being rewritten
<jdub> mpt: that wouldn't be an ubuntu doc
<mpt> because the upstream is ... beyond words
<mpt> (and because it wouldn't occur to people that the file manager was a separate program)
<jdub> (also, yelp has two new co-maintainers, which should increase the work being done on it)
<mpt> and trying to push such a rewrite upstream would probably piss people off
<LaserJock> jdub: I might be just dense here, but what would an example of a gluing doc be?
<jdub> LaserJock: "how do i connect to the internet?"
<jdub> LaserJock: try answering that with one application document ;-)
<jdub> particularly given the man-pages-for-gui-programs docs we have now
<mdke> i think we are trying to answer it in the desktopguide
<LaserJock> so like the Starter Guide?
<jdub> LaserJock: albeit less independent
<mpt> (Random note to anyone editing the desktop guide: "Configuring the network" should be called "Connecting to the Internet", and should be in the "Internet" section, not the "Configuring your system" section. Configuring your system is not a goal. Using the Internet is the goal.)
<mdke> mpt, mental note made
<mpt> (same applies to much of the stuff in the "Configuring your system" section)
<jdub> i always misread system as cistern
<jdub> which i only very rarely want to configure
<jdub> and probably couldn't stomach the documentation
<LaserJock> lol
<LaserJock> so does Kubuntu use yelp? I assume no
<mpt> no, it uses an HTML viewer
<LaserJock> btw, should I edit the UbuntuPackagingGuide spec?
<mdke> in what way?
<LaserJock> add stuff, there is nothing there right now
<LaserJock> does it matter?
<mdke> sure, if you like
<mdke> just point it at the spec you're working on, probably better
<LaserJock> what spec? the outline?
<mdke> yeah, that's all there is, isn't it?
<LaserJock> that is a subpage of the spec
<mdke> ah fine
<LaserJock> well, I have another resources page
<LaserJock> also a subpage
<LaserJock> I just didn't want to go mucking about with other peoples stuff
<LaserJock> I still haven't gotten the wiki mentality down ;-)
<mdke> you can go ahead
<LaserJock> k
#ubuntu-doc 2005-12-22
<mdke> ah fuck
<mdke> jdub, i can't get the translations working either
<mdke> it's kinda crazy tho because I see no reason why they shouldn't work
<mdke> perhaps an error in the omf files I'm trying
<LaserJock> what's up theCore ?
<theCore> some troubles ...
<Madpilot> like being gagged in #ubuntu & -offtopic...
<theCore> yea like that ... :/
<LaserJock> what?
<theCore> my little bros taken my session, and spamed the channels
<theCore> with stupidity
<LaserJock> hmm, bummer
<theCore> that destroyed my reputation for sure
<LaserJock> well, can't you politly explain?
<LaserJock> that should help
<theCore> yea, maybe ...
<theCore> but, still, now everybody think I have bad security habit ... ;) 
<theCore> anyway
<Madpilot> theCore: System menu --> Lock Screen - no more dumbass relatives spamming channels, or doing something more dangerous to your computer... :)
<theCore> Madpilot, i know ... 
<Madpilot> so, do ;)
<theCore> i will, for sure
<LaserJock> Madpilot: btw, you have to do ESC and the :wq to get out of vim ;-)
<LaserJock> or :q! to get out without saving
<LaserJock> or :q if nothing has been changed
<Madpilot> LaserJock: or just close the damn terminal, and use a sensible editor! :P
<LaserJock> lol, that too
<LaserJock> I just started using vim not long ago so I am still noobish with it
<LaserJock> nano is much easier for simple edits
<LaserJock> but I do all my programming and doc writting in vim
<Madpilot> for basic config file editing, what does vim do that nano can't?
<LaserJock> not much
<LaserJock> the only thing I can think of is it is easier to search and replace
<LaserJock> if you know how to use it I guess
<theCore> Madpilot, highlighting ?
<LaserJock> If I write docs where I need to specify an editor I go with nano/pico
<robitaille> vi rules!  :)
<robitaille> but not user friendly....
<Madpilot> robitaille: as I think I demonstrated :)
<theCore> it's efficient however
<robitaille> I have been using it daily for the last 15 years
<LaserJock> I
<LaserJock> am still going back and forth between emacs and vim. I like them both
<robitaille> very efficient, especially when you are searching for strings in a document
<robitaille> I have never been able get the hang of emacs or xemacs;  tried it multiple time, and always came back to vi.
<LaserJock> robitaille: I am the opposite, I started with emacs and it is hard for me to get used to vim ;-)
<LaserJock> although I am starting to see the light :-)
<theCore> LaserJock, any update on the PG ?
<LaserJock> hmm, not too much
<LaserJock> I am trying to get more -motu support
<LaserJock> but they are usually too busy to worry about docs :(
<LaserJock> and I am leaving town for Christmas vacation for 2 weeks on Tuesday so I am trying to get stuff done at work before I leave
<LaserJock> but I was going to try to fire up the old vim for a bit tonight and see if I can get a little bit done
<theCore> cool
<theCore> i will try too
<LaserJock> theCore: what are you going to work on?
<theCore> the examples
<LaserJock> got a partiular one in mind?
<theCore> the debhelper one
<LaserJock> cool
<LaserJock> I might try to finish up Getting Started
<theCore> in the Getting Started chapter do you cover the tool installation ?
<LaserJock> a little bit
<LaserJock> I have build-essential, devscripts, and dpkg-dev to start with
<theCore> so i need cover it in the examples ?
<LaserJock> and then I am going to just this the rest, but I would like to start each example with a list of programs neeeded to complete the example
<LaserJock> I think it is more instructive and modular that way
<theCore> LaserJock, yep, i like the idea
<theCore> then we just need to put a small box labelled "Dependencies" or something like that
<LaserJock> right
<LaserJock> maybe "Before You Begin"
<theCore> or maybe "What you need"
<LaserJock> If you did "Before You Begin" you could also say something like "Review the Simple Packaging Walkthrough section of Getting Started and install the following programs: "
<theCore> lol
<theCore> it's kinda long for nothing
<theCore> i was thinking about something similar to the LFS headers: http://www.linuxfromscratch.org/lfs/view/stable/chapter05/coreutils.html
<LaserJock> well, say somebody wants to know about using debhelper, they will naturally skip to the debhelper example so we need to make sure they are aware of what they need to know before starting the example
<LaserJock> that might be cool
<LaserJock> but we need examples to work on before we can worry about this stuff too much ;-)
<theCore> we could put links too
<theCore> yea
<LaserJock> the only thing I think we should keep in mind is that a lot of people would probably not read this linearly
<LaserJock> at least if it is as long as I think it is going to be
<theCore> i will do my example on a LiveCD, so i will be sure they works
<LaserJock> we need to make sure people can enter at each example and know what they need to do to get up to speed on that for that example
<LaserJock> hmm, good idea actually. that would be a good way to test
<theCore> LaserJock, we to make it short too, we don't clutter the page for peoples who have already install all the needed packages
<theCore> s/we/we don't/
<theCore> oups , s/we don't/we don't want to/
<LaserJock> right, that is why a box, or header like that LFS page would be good
<LaserJock> just links to stuff, not actuall content so much
<theCore> we could make one `installation' page a put all the install stuff there
<LaserJock> but I want to seperate out what needs to be installed for each example
<LaserJock> for instance, you don't need debhelper for the first example
<theCore> sure, that is why we need to use some header with links to the proper packages
<theCore> like Require section of the BLFS: http://tlgp.sourceforge.net/blfs-book-6.1-html/gnome/libgnome.html
* theCore love the LFS books
<LaserJock> theCore: I know, the are pretty cool
<LaserJock> I had never seen them before you showed them to me
<LaserJock> ok, let me whip of a quick example of what I am talking about
<LaserJock> theCore: ok, check out the Packaging Scenarios section at http://www.chem.unr.edu/~mantha/ubuntu/packagingguide/C/
<theCore> well, it isn't what I was think but it's okay ... 
<shadeofgrey> ah - excellent.. people here!
<shadeofgrey> hi!
<theCore> shadeofgrey, hello
<LaserJock> hi
<shadeofgrey> im Chris - friends and family call me gimp - and your all welcome to.  Id like to lend a hand
<LaserJock> theCore: how would you change it then?
<shadeofgrey> writing is my life, so, if youd like for me to help with docs im more than happy
<shadeofgrey> to...
<LaserJock> shadeofgrey: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam is the wiki entry point for the doc-team
<LaserJock> you can also check out doc.ubuntu.com
<shadeofgrey> okay
<shadeofgrey> so step one is learn the tools
<shadeofgrey> do i need to install anything through synaptic or something?  or are they browser based tools?
<LaserJock> do you know HTML or Docbook XML?
<Madpilot> shadeofgrey: Bluefish does Docbook (Screem might too, haven't checked)
<shadeofgrey> i'm dreamweaver proficient, which means my html knowledge is...  decent.  XML is totally new to me
<shadeofgrey> bluefish is a program?
<Madpilot> it's an HTML/etc editor
<LaserJock> ok, well docbook isn't too bad if you know HTML
<shadeofgrey> which is best?
<theCore> LaserJock, i would make a direct link to install info on the require tool name
<Madpilot> which what is best?
<theCore> shadeofgrey, it depend of your style, i like blufish
<shadeofgrey> Bluefish or Screem?
<LaserJock> theCore: but that shouldn't be necessary, all they need is the name I think
<shadeofgrey> okay bluefish it is then.
<Madpilot> I know Bluefish does DocBook, I haven't checked Screem - but I assume it does. They're both good programs
<LaserJock> I would install xsltproc and  docbook-xsl
<theCore> LaserJock, like that, we could short the ``requirement'' to one line
<LaserJock> and check out the doc-team svn repository at by checking out https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocteamStepByStepRepository
<shadeofgrey> i also have nvu installed
<theCore> LaserJock, Required tools: automake gnupg lintian
<Madpilot> I doubt Nvu would do DocBook, shadeofgrey
<Madpilot> shadeofgrey: have you joined the doc mailing list?
<theCore> LaserJock, and make the name link a # link on the install page ( like #lintian )
<shadeofgrey> no i havent joined the mailing list
<shadeofgrey> but i just got bluefish installed
<LaserJock> theCore: hmm, maybe I don't want to have a ton of links to one liners though
<Madpilot> shadeofgrey: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocteamCommunications
<theCore> LaserJock, it wouldn't be a ton
<theCore> LaserJock, most scenarios would take 3 up to 6 tools
<LaserJock> theCore: Well linking to something that is only a line or two is not good I think. Probably better to link to the section
<LaserJock> theCore: but that is just a small thing. I think we have the general idea down
<theCore> LaserJock, okay
<shadeofgrey> do i need to leave my last name too
<shadeofgrey> i dont mind
<theCore> anyway, i need to go bed
<theCore> cya later
<LaserJock> theCore: we can deal with that more when we have a better idea of what we need exactly
<LaserJock> theCore: me too cya
<Madpilot> shadeofgrey: send an email to the list introducing yourself
<shadeofgrey> okay
<LaserJock> shadeofgrey: maybe include some of your interests in the doc team, maybe projects you are interested in
<Madpilot> I've got to go, I actually need to shut this machine down to change something :(
<shadeofgrey> can somebody please paste a link that helps explain how to properly use bluefish
<Madpilot> back later
<LaserJock> cya Madpilot 
<shadeofgrey> ..the interface is intimidating
<shadeofgrey> okay...  firsty things first lemme go write that email
<shadeofgrey> brb
<LaserJock> hmm, I don't. I don't use it so I can't help you much there
<shadeofgrey> okay well
<shadeofgrey> which program do a majority of you use?
<shadeofgrey> id rather not be in the minority if i can help it
<LaserJock> probably bluefish or just gedit
<LaserJock> it really doesn't matter
<LaserJock> you could use notepad for all we care
<LaserJock> it is just what you find to be the most useful
<shadeofgrey> okay well
<shadeofgrey> all id like are instructions on how to best use bluefish to better the docteam
<LaserJock> bluefish has got some good stuff because it has lists of XML tags in the toolbar
<shadeofgrey> so
<shadeofgrey> we arent just writing
<shadeofgrey> we're creating xml compliant pages that contain our writing
<shadeofgrey> okay im with you.
<LaserJock> actually, you might try getting the docs from the svn repo and opening up them yourself
<shadeofgrey> lemme write the email first
<shadeofgrey> be back in a few minutes
<LaserJock> well, most of the docs will be shipped in Ubuntu so they can be read in gnome-help 
<LaserJock> and it renders Docbook and HTML and we can create HTML from the Docbook
<shadeofgrey> okay im dsigning up on the docteam info page
<shadeofgrey> do i want everything as a digest?
<LaserJock> hmm, probably not
<LaserJock> there aren't that many emails so it is nice to get them when they get sent rather than waiting around for the digest
<shadeofgrey> oh
<shadeofgrey> i chose digest
<shadeofgrey> LOL
<shadeofgrey> okay lemme write my introduction and ill go back and change that in a second
<shadeofgrey> by the wy does it matter that i onlyspeakj english?
<shadeofgrey> i didnt make that clear before
<LaserJock> I only speak English, so I hope not
<shadeofgrey> well...  good english and very profane english to be specific
<shadeofgrey> by theway
<shadeofgrey> most oif my work will probably be pretty slow compared to other people
<LaserJock> well, try to minimize the profane part since we should adhear to the Code of Conduct ;-)
<shadeofgrey> im very severely handicapped and can only type with three fingers on my left hand
<LaserJock> hmm, well I don't think it is so much the number of fingers as the brain running them ;-)
<shadeofgrey> i can push 70 words a minute if im not drunk and its really important but that takes serious effort and a few painkillers
<shadeofgrey> but thats the one goood thing about being gimp and american
<shadeofgrey> the drugs are really good
<shadeofgrey> they cost the other poor taxzpayers a bundle
<LaserJock> I don't think speed will be an issue, we just do what we can.
<shadeofgrey> i get to kill my liver nd kidneys absolutely scott free
<LaserJock> lol
<shadeofgrey> i have a very healthy somewhat demented sense of humor buy theway
<LaserJock> well, many of us do too
<shadeofgrey> my hope is that i inspire people to live their lives more cognisant of the fact tahtthere are thoseof us out there that cant get the simple stuff
<shadeofgrey> like tying shoes
<shadeofgrey> 'and walking
<shadeofgrey> running
<shadeofgrey> that sort of thing
<LaserJock> yeah
<shadeofgrey> because unless someboey does something really drastic really soon i probably wont do any of those in my lifetime
<shadeofgrey> which wouldnt bother me as much if i got laid regularly
<LaserJock> ok, well I gotta get to bed. It is nice to meet you gimp.
<shadeofgrey> pleasures all mine jock
<shadeofgrey> catcha later
<LaserJock> I will probably be around here tomorrow
<shadeofgrey> yeah ill probably begone after i write my email
<shadeofgrey> its almosy 2 am
<LaserJock> and just remember to check out the wiki and such
<shadeofgrey> i will i promise
<LaserJock> cya
<shadeofgrey> anybody else here alive and down to conversate?
<shadeofgrey> guess not
<jsgotangco> hey
<Madpilot> back...
<jsgotangco> hey
<Madpilot> had to reconfigure IRC to get back... irc.freenode.net isn't working right now...
<jsgotangco> same here
<jsgotangco> had to change it to chat.i.n
<Madpilot> yeah
<jsgotangco> damn spambots
<jsgotangco> heh
<Madpilot> meh... no actual time announced yet for the CC Meeting on the 20th...
* #ubuntu-doc  [freenode-info]  If you're at a conference, please contact freenode staff to make sure we've made special allowance for many users coming into our network from a single internet address ( http://freenode.net/faq.shtml#gettinghelp ). Private messages from unregistered users are currently blocked, except to network staff, services and participating registered users ( http://freenode.net/faq.shtml#privmsg )... Thanks!
<mdke> or rather, hey jdub 
<rob1> hi mdke 
<mdke> ello
<mdke> how are you?
<rob1> not too bad, yourself?
<mdke> good, thanks
<KingBahamut> anyone alive?
<mdke> KingBahamut, yes
<KingBahamut> just checkin
<KingBahamut> bad morning here
<mdke> ah right
<KingBahamut> and you?
<mdke> a lazy saturday
<KingBahamut> I havent gotten that far
<KingBahamut> found myself in a bottle of Lagavulin 25 last night
<KingBahamut> lol
<mdke> sounds dangerous
<KingBahamut> Scotch clouds the mind
<KingBahamut> lol
<jsgotangco> jdub, ping?
* teroedni is Away, Reason: ( back soon ) | Since: ( Saturday December 17 2005. 14:11:56 ) Xlack v2.1
* teroedni is back ( Away 1 hour 2 mins 14 secs )
* teroedni is Away, Reason: ( is being away ) | Since: ( Saturday December 17 2005. 14:11:56 ) Xlack v2.1
<mdke> teroedni, could you turn off public away notices pls?
<teroedni> sorry i trying to find out how to do it
<mdke> k thanks
<KingBahamut> mdke you round?
<KingBahamut> or anyone for that matter?
<mdke> KingBahamut, yeah briefly, sup?
#ubuntu-doc 2005-12-23
<xulMunkee> hi. can anyone help me with xmltex? it does an emergency stop when i run 'xmlto pdf ...'
<xulMunkee> rather, all the XML-FO based formats for xmlto are failing with same error
<xulMunkee> it happens with dvi, pdf, and ps
<xulMunkee> hmm. how about: has anyone successfully converted from docbook-xml to PDF using xmlto on ubuntu?
* bhuvan was unable to attend docteam meeting. isp have ruined the plan
<Madpilot> hi bhuvan
<bhuvan> Madpilot, hello
<Madpilot> bhuvan: you going to be able to make the Desktop meeting at 1700Z?
<bhuvan> Madpilot, it would be 22:30 here. so i afraid, i cant
<Madpilot> too bad - 1700Z is 0900 here
<mdke> hey highvoltage 
<highvoltage> hey mdke 
<highvoltage> how are you?
<highvoltage> got your message on #launchpad.
<mdke> highvoltage, I'm fine thanks
<mdke> did you get that email of mine about wiki licensing?
<highvoltage> yes, i did.
<mdke> any thoughts?
<mdke> we've amended the spec slightly since then I think
<highvoltage> i read throw it along with a whole bunch of e-mails, and found it confusing and decided to get back to it later, things have been a bit hectic, sorry for not following up, let me just look at it again.
<mdke> no problem
<mdke> highvoltage, i was thinking of taking it to the next community council meeting, so anytime between now and then is great :)
<highvoltage> ah, i see.
<highvoltage> yes, i wouldn't mind looking at the spec. not that i'm a lawyer ;)
<mdke> :)
<mdke> i'd appreciate it, I wanted the view of someone who worked a fair bit on the edubuntu wiki
<highvoltage> elmo said that Mark wants creative commons sharealike by attribution on ubuntu content.
<mdke> oh
<mdke> bugger
<highvoltage> geez, I don't know if I qualify as someone who did a fair bit on the edubuntu wiki, but thanks.
<highvoltage> what licence did you choose?
<mdke> public domain
<highvoltage> interesting.
<mdke> attribution on wiki content would be pretty harsh
<highvoltage> true.
<mdke> but I mailed elmo, mark, mako and Kamion the spec, and had no response :(
<mdke> they could have mentioned it
<highvoltage> can i see the spec too?
<mdke> it's at WikiLicensing
<highvoltage> i haven't seen public domained licenced material for any free software project yet. i'm not sure what the reasons are for that though.
<highvoltage> i'm interested to see what the CC will say about it.
<highvoltage> when is the CC meeting?
<mdke> tuesday i think
<mdke> no time set yet
<mdke> an attribution license on the wiki would be disastrous
<mdke> imagine having to credit each and every contributor to a page
<mdke> highvoltage, elmo said that mark wanted that license on the _wiki_, or on something else?
<highvoltage> mdke: hold on, I'll find the e-mail and forward it to you
<mdke> highvoltage, not if it's private tho :)
<highvoltage> found the e-mail, it was more broad than I remembered, and a bit vague.
<highvoltage> forwarding to you now..
<mdke> highvoltage, thanks, i think that is more something else
<mdke> but on the other hand, we may have to think about giving the ability to put other licenses on specific pages i suppose
<highvoltage> i liked what you said about imposing a licence instead.
<mdke> yeah that's what I'd prefer certainly
<highvoltage> having too many licenses will be confusing.
<mdke> certainly for documentation
<highvoltage> if someone wants another licence, they can keep it on their own page, like you said.
<mdke> what about development material?
<mdke> i suppose those aren't really copiable anyway
<highvoltage> i think development material is always nice under a free license
<highvoltage> so if someone is in a rush to use it, and they'd like to fix it up, they can.
<mdke> :)
<highvoltage> i see you that you understand :)
<mdke> yeah i totally agree
<highvoltage> i think that the CC will add some good insight. as far as i can tell, your rational for licensing for the wiki is completely sound.
<highvoltage> i don't think you'll have much of a problem with the doc-licensing suggestion.
<mdke> doc-licensing?
<highvoltage> ignore that :) i meant the wiki licensing proposal
<mdke> ah cool
<mdke> thanks dude
<highvoltage> no problemo
<highvoltage> how's london? from the weather reports it seems that it's very cold there.
<mdke> cold, but lovely
<mdke> it hasn't rained for like a month
<mdke> better than July
<highvoltage> woe.
<highvoltage> wow even.
<mdke> :)
<highvoltage> July was funny. it was winter here, and I came to London, the weather was almost exactly the same as here :)
<mdke> hehe
<highvoltage> the days were much longer there though. sun setting at 11 at night. in cape town it was dark by 5.
<mdke> it's dark now here (5pm)
<highvoltage> bbl. connected through cell phone and have to make call now...
* mdke pokes Madpilot
<Madpilot> morning - sorry I'm running late
<mdke> no problem :)
<mdke> no one else is here
<Madpilot> ah, never mind
<mdke> Madpilot, :( Are you around for a bit, maybe we can see if someone comes...
<Madpilot> yeah, I'm here for a while
<mdke> cool
* burglaptop is bored or sitting around at home
<mdke_> burglaptop, obviously canadian television isn't covering the snooker final, huh?
<LaserJock> hmm, I'm here but I'm trying to get ready for Christmas vacation
<burglaptop> mdke_: I am at my GFs and she doesn't have television
<burglaptop> plus I am recovering from surgery so I am lying in bed a lot
<mdke_> ouch, hope it went well
<burglaptop> I will end up taking more time away from work than I anticipated, due to it being more complex than imagined
<burglaptop> but it did go well
<mdke_> good
<LaserJock> recovering from surgery and no tv. I would go insane! Unless I had some DSL and could chat here and do some Ubuntu work ;-)
<burglaptop> I borrow wireless from the neighbours here
<LaserJock> oh, well that's good, I guess 
<burglaptop> it is nice and fast and competely free, thanks to our friends at linksys
<LaserJock> While I am gone for 2 weeks over Christmas I will be lucky to get dialup. My parents line is like 24.4KB
<burglaptop> ouch
<burglaptop> I intend to spend a maximumof 12 hours on christmas this year
<mdke_> don't go!
<burglaptop> that includes transportation to and from my step mothers mothers place
* mdke_ nods approval
<LaserJock> I get to spend 1 week with the inlaws and 1 week with my parents. My wife and I get to drive 1000 mi. through snow to get there.
<LaserJock> but I'm so excited ;-)
<burglaptop> oh, and that also includes shopping for said holiday
<mdke> argh inlaws
* mdke finds a cool wiki diff:
<mdke> Hugelmopf: Reorganizing and extending the dialup/modem pages.
<mdke> wicked
<burglaptop> nice, that needed to be done a very long time ago
<mdke> yep
<burglaptop> I wish we had a good way to contact people through the bloody wiki
<burglaptop> mdke: well, hey, he contacted us
<KingBahamut> They havent made a PMer for wiki's yet burg.....that i know of 
<mdke> burglaptop, ?
<burglaptop> KingBahamut: umm, mediawiki allows in wiki communication through talk pages as well as automatic emailling of contributors (without shwoing those addys)
<KingBahamut> Ill try to bring that up in the current meeting Im having
<KingBahamut> thanks 
<burglaptop> mdke: he emailed ubuntu-devel on a thread about modem users pain
<mdke> ah cool
<mdke> i don't read that list
<burglaptop> just cc-ed us
<mdke> thanks
<mdke> oh rock
<burglaptop> salut mhz
<mhz> salut burglaptop 
<mhz> burglaptop: how many nicks do you have?
<burglaptop> 3
<mhz> oh
<burglaptop> for where I am
<mhz> nice
<burglaptop> Burgundavia is for at home, Burgwork at home and Burglaptop for when I am on my laptop, usually at my GF
<mdke> hey KingBahamut, you were looking for me yesterday?
<KingBahamut> if I was capn 
<KingBahamut> I have long since forgotten why 
<KingBahamut> my sorries capn
<mdke> ah ok
<mdke> nothing important then :D
<mhz> burglaptop: GF?
<mhz> GeekFree?
<mdke> sort of
<mdke> girl friend
<mhz> duh!
<mhz> hehehe
<KingBahamut> if it was mdke 
<KingBahamut> Id be spammin yer mail and irc whisper window 
<KingBahamut> trust me
<mdke> cool
<mhz> burglaptop: and she lets you use 'your' time on IRC?
<littlepaul> mdke, did you heard about the ubuntu-motu-school?
<mdke> vaguely... i read something about it on planet
<mdke> y?
<mhz> littlepaul: hi. motu-school, very nice idea
<mhz> unfortunately, I missed it
<littlepaul> my thought was to make something similar for ubuntu-doc :)
<mhz> :(
<mhz> yup, good idea!
<mdke> littlepaul, aha. what did you have in mind?
<LaserJock> yeah, motu-school rocks
<mhz> I offer myself for a Moin-School
<LaserJock> the only problem with motu-school that I have seen is lack of people willing to set aside enough time to help people. The MOTU are pretty busy as it is.
<littlepaul> mdke, I would be happy if you or someone else could make a presentation regarding the whole doc thing ( in a few sesions) - I'm sure it would help
<littlepaul> LaserJock, sure :(
<mdke> littlepaul, would this be video, irc, wiki page, what?
<LaserJock> motu-school is on irc
<littlepaul> mdke, similar to motu first irc and then in wiki
<littlepaul> the summary goes to wiki
<mdke> i'd be glad to help if I can
<LaserJock> but it will be transferred to wiki and eventually the Ubuntu Packaging Guide if everything goes well
<littlepaul> right
<mdke> there is already loads of material on the wiki we can use
<littlepaul> mdke I am aware about this material but I think something practically would make it more interesting :)
<mdke> littlepaul, sure, i agree. How shall we go about trying to get people involved and planning stuff?
<littlepaul> mdke,  the problem ist that many users to not join this forum - maby via ubuntu ml?
<LaserJock> maybe just email the list and offer up a time and place for people to come and see mhz dazzle us with Moin?
<littlepaul> mdke, sounder?
<mdke> sure, and the forums too
<mdke> but the problem is that people are always in different timezones and it will be tricky to get enough people
<littlepaul> 12:00 UTC Saturday or Sunday?
<mdke> preferably not next week
<mdke> :)
<littlepaul> :)
<mdke> i can post it to planet too (*nudges jdub*) or we can get jerome/corey to post there
<littlepaul> mdke first I can make a announce on the ml to check the interest and then as a second step planet
<mdke> sure good idea
<littlepaul> I mean you should make this announce :)
<littlepaul> mdke,  do you know the motu report and den ubuntu desktop news?
<mdke> i saw the desktop news post
<mdke> you think we should do one of those too?
<littlepaul> could the ubuntu-doc team offer a monthly or periodical report?
<mdke> yeah we could
<mdke> another good idea
<littlepaul> :)
<mdke> i post to sounder every so often, but we could do something a bit more formal if you like
<littlepaul> this could be a chance to involve people
<mdke> yeah, we really need to :)
<littlepaul> mdke, such formal reports are like "milestones" 
* mdke nods
<littlepaul> the interest is bigger because people are waiting for such news 
<littlepaul> mdke, we can talk further about this in 2 weeks if you wish
<mdke> i'm happy to talk further about it whenever you like
<mdke> how do you want to proceed now?
<mdke> you want to mail some lists, or shall I?
<littlepaul> I hope that you get enough time to collect some ideas in the next weeks and maby it would be possible for you to create a formal thing
<mdke> on the school idea or the newsletter idea?
<mdke> the newsletter should be relatively easy
<littlepaul> ok
<littlepaul> so pls bring it on the ml and announce this school idea
#ubuntu-doc 2005-12-24
<mdke> ok sure
<mdke> i'll do it now, thanks littlepaul 
<mdke> you subscribed to -doc?
<littlepaul> great
<littlepaul> not yet :)
* mdke gasps
<littlepaul> mdke, but http://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-doc.mbox/ubuntu-doc.mbox is in my evolution
<mdke> ah great
<mhz> re
<littlepaul> wb mhz
<mhz> LaserJock: good idea. Actually I had some doubts if people would like the idea so asking in the ML's is nice.
<mhz> littlepaul: thx :)
<mdke> i'll write something up
<littlepaul> mdke, thx
<littlepaul> mdke, is it possible to organize such a "brainstorming" session on the ml; the involved people could give useful hints about the school idea
<mdke> yes
<mdke> littlepaul, what is your real name?
<littlepaul> Andreas Brunner
<mdke> thanks
<mdke> are you the same as ompaul?
<littlepaul> no
<mdke> :)
<littlepaul> just littlepaul, a potential ubuntu-doc-school pupil
<mdke> :D
<mdke> would you envisage the school idea to be (a) a general talk about how the docteam is organised and how to get involved, or (b) a specific talk about the tools, or (c) both
<littlepaul> both; but for the first session the answer fits to a :)
<littlepaul> you could naturally make report regarding a and start with directly with b
<mdke> heh
<mdke> i'm not convinced we'd be very good at (b)
<mdke> it's kinda learn-as-you-go
<littlepaul> sure...
<LaserJock> hmm, I'm starting to wonder if it would be possible to set up some kind of common framework for these -school type ideas
<mdke> hehe
<LaserJock> I think they are nice for people wanting to contribute
<littlepaul> LaserJock, could you specifiy your thought?
<mdke> ok posted
<LaserJock> well, if there is going to be stuff like doc-school and motu-school maybe there is enough commonality that they could share some stuff. For instance, maybe make a wiki page that has places for people to sign up to "teach" classes or maybe what people want to see. Maybe a common calendar and it would be good to try to maybe work on some of the communication tools, etc. Then people interested in contributing to Ubuntu can g
<mdke> LaserJock, we saw up to "contributing to Ubuntu can g"
<LaserJock> ...go to a central place and then see what's going on.
<LaserJock> sorry
<mdke> np
<mdke> you have to take a breath :)
<littlepaul> LaserJock, mdke thx for your interest :)
<LaserJock> I mean, what is hard for many people wanting to contribute is to really see at a glance what is going on and where things are taking place
<littlepaul> the common framework could be moodle :)
<LaserJock> littlepaul: well, I helped with motu-school so I think the idea is good. The only thing I see is that MOTU is much bigger 
<LaserJock> littlepaul: I've never heard of moodle, it looks really cool. That is kinda what I was thinking about
<littlepaul> LaserJock, moodle is maby someday in edubuntu
<mdke> LaserJock, ubuntu.com/community/participate?
<littlepaul> LaserJock, I think that ubuntu has some important columns; some of this columns: motu and doc; because motu is big there is a need to enhance also doc :)
<LaserJock> mdke: right, I think that we need to launch from ubuntu.com/community/participate to how to get involved in those areas, what is currently going on, how to get trained, etc.
<mdke> sure
<mdke> the wiki is an obvious place
<littlepaul> all this steps conduct someday to the ubuntu certification (lpi++) program
<LaserJock> something like moodle would be really nice, but I think it would be quite some work.
<littlepaul> LaserJock, "moodle" could evolve to something important like "launchpad/melone" for the community - in one year or so :)
<LaserJock> littlepaul: sure, just need to get sabdfl to crack the whip ;-)
<littlepaul> hehe
<Burglaptop> LaserJock: the advantage to putting all in moodle is that the work would really only need to be done oncwe
<littlepaul> Burglaptop, good point
<LaserJock> right, that is very very important
<LaserJock> I have been helping people learn to package and I have to go over the same stuff over and over
<mdke> what is moodle?
<LaserJock> mdke: www.moodle.org
<mdke> nm, checking website
<Burglaptop> mdke: it is education and python
<LaserJock> it's in Ubuntu
<Burglaptop> mdke: sabfdl drools over it
<mdke> i can immagine
<littlepaul> http://wiki.edubuntu.org/MainInclusionReportMoodle
<Burglaptop> sorry, moodle is php but early versions were python
<Madpilot> whois Madpilot
<Madpilot> bleh... /me is not paying attention, and can't type...
<Burglaptop> Madpilot: a bloody hell, my nick is unregged, just a sec
<LaserJock> I would think you would know ;-)
<Madpilot> LaserJock: was trying to remember what a regged nick looked like vs an unregged one :)
<LaserJock> lol
<LaserJock> I wonder how hard it would be to get moodle going for these -schools
<Burglaptop> LaserJock: you need to get php past elmo
<Burglaptop> bloody xchat-gnome
<LaserJock> hmm, seems like it's hard to get anything past elmo ;-)
<Madpilot> elmo is PHP-phobic? 
<Burglaptop> any sane sys admin is php phobic
<LaserJock> hmm, well are there any moodle alternatives?
<mdke> the wiki?
<LaserJock> probably, at least to begin with
<littlepaul> LaserJock, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Managed_learning_environment
<LaserJock> littlepaul: cool, thanks. lots there
<littlepaul> http://www.edutools.info/course/compare/byproduct/index.jsp nice comparison site :)
<littlepaul> gtgn, thx for talking :)
<LaserJock> hmm, there are some none PHP moodle-like apps
<Burglaptop> none with the market share and developers than moodle has behind it
<jsgotangco> hey ho
<Burglaptop> salut jsgotangco
<LaserJock> ok, well I gotta go but I might have to think about this moodle idea
<jsgotangco> hey Burglaptop how's work and life?
<Burglaptop> jsgotangco: not bad
<mhz> LaserJock: I got back from tea time and read your posts on schools.. I agree with you
<mhz> Burglaptop: Moodle is very good
<mhz> Burglaptop: but you can also make Moin very good for learning instances
<jsgotangco> mhz, blah :)
<mhz> after all, the importance is focused on Content rather than a tool
<mhz> jsgotangco: hehehe, it's true. moin is already there and we use maybe 60% of its potential only
<mhz> and we don't have to worry about php sec. issues
<jsgotangco> yeah
<LaserJock> hmm, well maybe I should give some thought to what the best way to help potential Ubuntu contributors learn what they need to get plugged into various teams
<jsgotangco> i'd still go the moodle route though, its well established already on this regard
<jsgotangco> It *Just Works* (TM)
<mhz> yup, Moodle is very good. Also, we could use eXeLearning
<mhz> integration
<mhz> OR, we could use InterWiki feature to 'sync' content on diff Wiki servers
<mhz> and maybe even include the WikiLearn concept
<theCore> LaserJock, hi
<LaserJock> hi theCore 
<theCore> the yelp fix is awsome :-)
<theCore> do you know about it ?
<LaserJock> wich one?
<theCore> the <xsl:import href="../../gettext/gettext.xsl"> one
<LaserJock> theCore: I saw it, I haven't tried it out yet
<LaserJock> I just got yelp to not segfault on me
<theCore> lol
<theCore> sudo gedit /usr/share/xml/gnome/xslt/docbook/common/db-{title,xref,label}.xsl
<theCore> then remove the <xsl:import href="../../gettext/gettext.xsl"> line
<theCore> and yelp will be speed up by 200%
<LaserJock> ok, just a sec. I gotta load up my vnc connection
<LaserJock> hmm, that is nice
<theCore> there's no need for shipping html, with that fix
<jsgotangco> yes
<theCore> except maybe for having a search tool
<jsgotangco> we get printing though
<jsgotangco> heh
<LaserJock> well, search is coming for yelp isn't it?
<theCore> jsgotangco, that true
<theCore> :)
<jsgotangco> LaserJock, there is no upstream patch for such at the moment, just printing and yelp speedups
<jsgotangco> speeding up yelp alone is a major breakthrough
<LaserJock> http://blogs.gnome.org/view/shaunm/2005/12/16/0 says that 2.14 will do search
<jsgotangco> previous versions had some simple search
<jsgotangco> at least we can say the itch was addressed due to something that doesn't work in ubuntu
* jsgotangco is still docbook crack fiend
<LaserJock> lol
<LaserJock> mhz: got done with the dishes?
<mhz> yup
<mhz> everything here is manual
<mhz> :)
* jsgotangco also manually washes dishes
<LaserJock> yeah, I am lucky to have a dish washer
<LaserJock> although it is so crappy I sometimes wonder if I should do it by hand
<mhz> we couldnt use dish wahser in my family. AFAIK, they consume too much energy and we -humans- need to save energy :)
<jsgotangco> it doesn't clean as well compared to doing it by yourself unless you are a very crappy washer from the start :)
<mhz> lol!
<Madpilot> I wait until the counter vanishes, then do dishes... :P
<jsgotangco> Palmolive and a sponge is all you need heh
<mhz> indeed
<LaserJock> Madpilot: I would do that but my wife doesn't agree ;-)
<mhz> we should have ubuntu-housekeepers
<LaserJock> lol
<Madpilot> I'm actually trying to breed self-washing dishes, so all that stuff on the counter is actually experiments, not a mess! :P
<LaserJock> I'm sure we could arrange a mailing list ;-)
<mhz> LaserJock: we can cry there
<mhz> happily
<mhz> and jsgotangco could recommend some creams and stuff
<jsgotangco> hah
<mhz> for hands
<jsgotangco> its not like i do it everyday :P
<LaserJock> I just wish housekeeping could be a cron job
<mhz> oh
* jsgotangco is not really into hand creams and lotions
<mhz> lol
<mhz> LaserJock: if it were a cron job we'd be scrwed
<jsgotangco> oh well we're bordering already to offtopic anyways
<mhz> on a second thought... I think i dont have a cron for housekeeping but i do have a daemon running after me, chasing me... my-wife
<LaserJock> have any of you seen Mark's talk at debconf 5?
<LaserJock> mhz: I agree
<mhz> LaserJock: i bet
<LaserJock> I just watched the .mpeg of his talk and I think it should be required or something for ubuntu-user subscribers
<Madpilot> LaserJock: link for that?
<mhz> please
<Madpilot> meh... two days until the next CC meeting, and they **still** haven't fixed a time for it...
<LaserJock> a direct link is http://meetings-archive.debian.net/pub/debian-meetings/2005/debconf5/mpeg/2005-07-14/02-Ubuntu_Talk-Mark_Shuttleworth.mpeg but it is over 100 MB
<LaserJock> or 200MB I mean
<Madpilot> broadband is wonderful :)
<LaserJock> oh, yeah. I download 4 talks
<LaserJock> Mark's was the longest though
<LaserJock> 1hr11min I think
<mhz> Madpilot: what if time were rotating 3 hours every meeting?
<LaserJock> but it seems to me that a lot of the arguments on ubuntu-users and elsewhere would be greatly reduced if people just watched his presentation
<Madpilot> mhz: not sure what you mean?
<mhz> let's say last meeting was 12 UTC, then next meeting should be 15 UTC
<mhz> and so on
<Madpilot> ah, OK
<Madpilot> I think it would just confuse people, to be honest :)
<mhz> so, we'd know already
<LaserJock> mhz: I don't think that would happen because the CC wouldn't care to get up that early
<mhz> hehehehe
<Madpilot> or stay up that late...
<Madpilot> jsgotangco: what time (local) is 1700Z, btw?
<theCore> LaserJock , lol it's a mepg video, isn't ubuntu should use free formats?
<LaserJock> oh, there is oggtheora too
<LaserJock> but I'm on Windows right now so I got the .mpeg
<theCore> LaserJock, feeew
<LaserJock> http://wiki.debian.org/?DebConf5Talks is the page that has all the links though
<mhz> indeed
<mhz> I loved the logo!
<Madpilot> http://meetings-archive.debian.net/pub/debian-meetings/2005/debconf5/ogg_theora/368x288/2005-07-14/
<Madpilot> ogg videos there ^^^
<theCore> i had already found it, but thanks
* LaserJock is downloading "Package Management and Revision Control, A wedding" presently
<theCore> LaserJock, Package Management ? hmm, i must get that video too
<LaserJock> Mark talks about how packaging over time really is like branches in a revision control system. He was talking about the possibility of running the packaging using baz or something to that effect
<LaserJock> I suspect that might be what this talk is about but I don't know
<jsgotangco> Madpilot, that's 3am on my side and probably around 5am on rob's
<jsgotangco> oh wait that's only 2am
<Madpilot> jsgotangco: yeah, I just figured that out - sorry, for some reason I was thinking 1700Z was only about midnight in your part of the globe!
<jsgotangco> Madpilot, you can always refer to timeanddate anyways =)
<jsgotangco> i could tolerate such meetings till 2am i guess but it'll be much harder for those in au
<Madpilot> so even the 1400Z meetings start at 2300 local for you, right?
<jsgotangco> right
<jsgotangco> thats still early for me
<theCore> Mark seem nervous on that video ...
<LaserJock> well, it is a Debian conference. There are still quite a few people that don't really appreciate Ubuntu.
<theCore> lol, that's true
<mhz> 'just quite a few' :D
<theCore> good night, all! 
<jsgotangco> night
<Madpilot> interesting - Mark did seem a bit jumpy all thru that talk at debconf... 
<LaserJock> Madpilot: have you seen other talks by him?
<Madpilot> some short videos from UBZ
<Madpilot> not sure if they're still available somewhere, but he's noticably more relaxed in the UBZ stuff
<LaserJock> oh, I have never seen any other talk by him so I didn't notice it much
<littlepaul> a thought about all the logfiles (people.ubuntu.com/~fabbione/irclogs/ and http://netz.smurf.noris.de/logs/freenode/2005/) arround. I think there is much unused potential. A webfrontend that searches through this logfiles would help to  raise the relevance of the included content
* mdke considers unsubscribing from sounder
<mdke> blimey it is heavy stuff
<LaserJock> what is heavy?
<mdke> the incessant long posts about anally retentive subjects
<Burglaptop> welcome to a sign of a maturing community
<mdke> _maturing_?
<Burglaptop> we have lots of people and some of them like to listen to themselves post
* mdke nods
<mdke> some of the posts are pretty interesting, others are just a pita
<Burglaptop> sweet, daf is back
* mdke sighs again at sounder
<LaserJock> man, I just don't understand what they are even arguing about, if they are
<mdke> no, as burg says, just loving the sound of their own voice
<Burglaptop> I used to be really bad for that fault, so I have a good idea how to spot it
<mdke> lol
<Burglaptop> if you listen to Madpilot, I still am
* Burglaptop wonders if it is a bad thing that a relative is involved in my hobby
* mdke listens to Madpilot 
<mdke> where is Rob these days?
<mdke> >_<
<jjesse> afternoon :)
<LaserJock> hello
<LaserJock> jjesse: you run KDE, right?
<jjesse> yup
<LaserJock> cool, I'm doing irc from Konversation right now
<jjesse> both breezy and dapper
<jjesse> version of kubuntu
<LaserJock> I thought I would take the plunge and try KDE out
<LaserJock> on Ubuntu at least
<jjesse> its a lot better then gnome :P
<LaserJock> I used to use it on SuSE and Gentoo
<Burglaptop> jjesse: arguable
<Burglaptop> I am going stircrazy stuck in this house
<jjesse> Burglaptop: i know i was being sarcastic 
<jjesse> Burglaptop: to each thier own
<LaserJock> Burglaptop: how long do you have to be there?
<LaserJock> I tried Kubuntu once in Hoary and it didn't seem that great
<jjesse> alot of chnages have taken place
<Burglaptop> LaserJock: until I recover, several days at least
<Burglaptop> jjesse: NO, everybody much use the one true desktop! ICEWM!!!
<LaserJock> Burglaptop: well, I hope you recover quickly
<jjesse> one desktop to rule them all...
<LaserJock> Burglaptop: arrgghhh, I hate ICEWM
<LaserJock> only FVWM
<Burglaptop> LaserJock: it is going well, but the operation took 45 minutes in what should have been 10
<LaserJock> or maybe Openbox for the light hearted
<LaserJock> Burglaptop: that's no good. My mom had surgery on Friday. She will be recovering over our Christmas vacation
<Burglaptop> LaserJock: ouch. Thanks to the powers of the neighbours internet and Canonical's laptop, I can continue to do work while stuck here
<LaserJock> Burglaptop: are the Canonical laptops good? I have heard about them but I don't know the specs.
<mdke> every on is different
<mdke> on/one*
<mdke> otherwise there would be no point testing em ;)
<LaserJock> yeah, but do the spend lots of money on them or are they cheapos
<LaserJock> I just wondered. It is a cool idea
<mdke> varies i guess
<mdke> see LaptopTestingTeam on the wiki
<LaserJock> My wife has a laptop but I don't think she would like me putting Ubuntu on it.
<Burglaptop> LaserJock: mine is a low-end business model
<mdke> sure she would :)
* Burglaptop brings out his sales and marketing wonk hat
<Burglaptop> LaserJock: it is not that hard. Simply find out what annoys her about using the computer and then match the features of Ubuntu to that "pain". That is the value you can sell
<Burglaptop> either that or break her XP install
<Burglaptop> that worked for Madpilot
<mdke> mine lappy is nice /me hugs laptop
<Burglaptop> other than the battery life (1.5 hours), mine is great too
<LaserJock> I think the problem is that I would be taking over her laptop too much. ;-)
<LaserJock> "Honey, I just need to test one more thing and then you can surf Ebay."
<Burglaptop> LaserJock: I would handle that objection by saying you will need to do less work on the laptop overall
<Burglaptop> less to make it Just Work, that is
<LaserJock> I think it would be better for me to go with, " I need to buy a new laptop so that I don't take over yours all the time"
<mdke> i find Ubuntu a lot more productive than windows
<LaserJock> mdke: I certainly don't, I just spend all my time doing Ubuntu work and not real work ;-)
<LaserJock> but that's my problem
* mdke nods
<LaserJock> and now my one Ubuntu box at work is going to be replaced with an iMac so it will be interesting to see how much I will be able to test stuff.
<jjesse> LaserJock: dual booting is easy to setup, then one day jsut forget to boot back to windows and see if she complains :)
<mdke> stick Ubuntu on that too
<LaserJock> mdke: not that easy. I need quite a bit of software for my reasearch that is only on Mac or Windows :(
<mdke> change research
<LaserJock> lol
<jjesse> LaserJock: i'm in the same position as you
<jjesse> need a lot of windows only software at work
<LaserJock> I'm 4 years into my PhD. I don't think I'm going to abandon it for Ubuntu. I will definately still be working, I just need to move some stuff around
<LaserJock> I think I will set up my Ubuntu box at home and then ssh and vnc to it from the iMac
<LaserJock> We just need Ubuntu to take over the science field and then it will be better.
<mdke> what software is it that is the blocker?
<LaserJock> Right now a lot of people are moving from Windows to OSX. I  hope they will then move from OSX to Ubuntu ;-)
<LaserJock> mdke: usually data collection and analysis. For me at least
<mdke> why haven't the geeks written linux versions?
<LaserJock> mdke: because we are doing research not programming 
<mdke> brb
<LaserJock> I think that is the essential problem. Scientist might be willing to write a program for there specific need but it is usually not very good for general use
<LaserJock> as Helen Faulkner said at Debconf5 many linux developers think that scientist should be allowed to write programs :-)
<LaserJock> s/should/shouldn't/
<LaserJock> part of the problem I suppose is also that science is generally well funded
<LaserJock> my boss has no problem dropping $300/person on data analysis software
<LaserJock> even though he his a dedicated linux user (couldn't use Windows to save his life) he find OSX to be easier and more productive for him.
<LaserJock> of course the most recent linux experience he had was with Fedora Core 1 running FVWM so ...
<Burglaptop> LaserJock: I feel sorry for him
<LaserJock> I do too, but now he thinks OSX is wonderful because he can do the linux things that he was used to but also run MS Office, etc.
<Burglaptop> OS X is both our greatest blessing and our greatest curse
<LaserJock> I agree
<Burglaptop> hmm, the beeb article is wrong about the IE stuff
<Burglaptop> they state that 1 in 10 websites don't work with FF, but forget to mention that some of those websites only work on IE on windows, not on Mac
<mgalvin> dang, ok enough, ubuntu under attack -> trash
<Burglaptop> ugh, lack of namespaces in our wiki pisses me off, again
<mgalvin> gesh
<LaserJock> Burglaptop: how so?
<Burglaptop> LaserJock: very hard to see what is a doc, what is person, etc.
<LaserJock> ahh, I see.
<Burglaptop> makes sorting RecentChanges a painful exercise
<LaserJock> yes I suppose
<bshumate> Burglaptop: did I read you right yesterday, in that you're borrowing your neighbor's WiFi access?  if so, how do you give it back when you're done? ;-)
<bshumate> Burglaptop: did you just jump on their open access point then?  i mean do your neighbors know you're using it?
<Burglaptop> bshumate: I just jump on their open access point
<Burglaptop> and no, they don't know i am using it
<jjesse> i can get my neighbors upstairs in the bedroom
<Burglaptop> jjesse: I didn't know you had it in you!
<jjesse> grin i only do it once in awhile
<mdke> all the neighbours here have closed APs
<jjesse> have to be in a specfic location
<mdke> grrrr
<bshumate> isn't that essentially stealing though?  i mean aren't there laws against this kind of thing?
<mdke> _sharing_
<mdke> it's the open source way
* mdke digs out mako's blog post about it
<Burglaptop> bshumate: likely but it is pretty harmless theft
<mdke> blimey mako needs a search engine on his blog
<mdke> http://mako.cc/copyrighteous/reflections/20050730-00.html
<theCore> Burglaptop, if the guy, that you suck the internet, has bandwidth limit, it can be harmful to him
<bshumate> "harmless theft"?  i tend to think theft is theft. sounds unethical to me.  sharing is more apt to involve both parties knowledge.  i know if you were "sharing" my electricity from my house without my knowledge, I'd sure not be happy about it!
<Burglaptop> but in Canada you don't pay by the bit
<Burglaptop> you pay a flat cost, ergo I don't cost them anything
<theCore> Burglaptop, it debend of your ISP
<mdke> bshumate, i'd argue that them leaving the AP open is consent to you using it
<bshumate> hmmm... the article doen't seem to make any good points.
<mdke> for the pure reason that people need to get smarter
<mdke> sure the article makes good points
<bshumate> in the case of the access points specifically, both parties should be held accountable....the owner for leaving it open, and the person who uses it without permission.
<Burglaptop> theCore: yes, but both Shaw and Telus charge a flat rate up to an extremely high cap
<mdke> Every time my Internet connection at home goes down, I take advantage of one my neighbors APs. To balance things out, I make sure I always run an open AP for others out my home.
<mdke> doing so is about being a good neighbor
<Burglaptop> kamion runs a dual network, an open AP for the world and a closed AP for him
<bshumate> mdke: so long as everyone understands that to be the arrangement, then i am fine with that...that *is* sharing
<bshumate> but to just take, without the other party's knowledge, is theft really.
<mdke> i really don't think it's a big deal
<bshumate> interesting nonetheless.
<Burglaptop> bshumate: as mdke can tell you, part of the test for theft is how much damage you have cost the person you stole from
<mdke> heh
<mdke> not in our law :)
<mdke> you guys obviously changed it :p
<Burglaptop> Canuck law is an odd hybrid of US, UK and French law
<bshumate> Burglaptop: so you are stating that morally, it is ok to steal a penny, but not a hundred bucks?
<Burglaptop> bshumate: nope
<mdke> depends on who you steal if from
<bshumate> Burglaptop: but the "damage" is different, is it not?
<Burglaptop> bshumate: I am saying that my use doesn't cost them anything and thus does not damage them
<mdke> Gates isn't gonna miss it
<bshumate> mdke: ohhhhh...
<bshumate> mdke: interesting angle / philosophy there. ;-)
<Burglaptop> nor do I engage in illegal activities with their connection
<mdke> not really
<mdke> its a fairly uncontroversial aspect of morally to focus on the damage done to others
<bshumate> mdke: it is the classic "Robin Hood" mentality towards theft, actually...
<mdke> yes
<mdke> as i said, uncontroversial
<mdke> everyone agrees that Robin Hood was not an immoral man, except for the leotards
<Burglaptop> mdke: the leotards are arguable as well
<mdke> LOL
<bshumate> mdke: heh heh
<mdke> Burglaptop, did you say you had a _girl_friend?
<mdke> omg they are still at it on sounder
<bshumate> interesting, and enlightening chat, fellows.
<Burglaptop> mdke: I do indeed have a girl friend. Madpilot can even verify that
<bshumate> what is this sounder business?
<mdke> bshumate, a mailing list @lists.ubuntu.com
<bshumate> ahhh,
<mdke> so Burglaptop 
<mdke> i started writing a slimmed down about-ubuntu.xml
<jjesse> i take it sounder is a high traffic mailing list?
<mdke> really short, it looks pretty boring but i might commit it and you can have a go at it
<mdke> jjesse, not that high... but it can get painful to read
<jjesse> ah i don't need another list like that
<Burglaptop> mdke: I can take a look at it, but I have very little concentration right now, due to pain
<theCore> sometime there are good tips that show up 
<mdke> Burglaptop, :( you don't have to look now
<theCore> like the one about yelp that mdke sended
<mdke> on sounder???
<theCore> mdke, the tip about how to speed up yelp
<mdke> maybe on -doc?
<theCore> yes
<Burglaptop> the yelp speedy up stuff is being discussed upstream
<mdke> and one of the devs posted it on our list
<theCore> Burglaptop, i made the fix on my yelp, it's wonderful how yelp is fast :)
<mdke> theCore, really, it works well?
<mdke> that is awesome news
<theCore> mdke, it's like magic
<mdke> Burglaptop, committed
<mdke> ok, we may have to abandon the "shipping in html" then
<mdke> if we haven't already :)
<theCore> but yelp still support for searching and printing
<theCore> still need*
<mdke> it has printing
<mdke> in dapper
<theCore> good
<mdke> and search, if you use beagle
<theCore> mdke, did you fix it on your system?
<mdke> not yet
<theCore> get it a try
<theCore> s/get/give/
<theCore> sudo gedit /usr/share/xml/gnome/xslt/docbook/common/db-{title,xref,label}.xsl
<theCore> then remove <xsl:import href="../../gettext/gettext.xsl"/>
<theCore> it's around the 24 line
<theCore> it's located*
<mdke> ahhhh that is awesome stuff
<mdke> but presumably, they'll need to figure out another way to replace whatever it is that gettext.xsl was doing
* bshumate marvels at the quality entertainment that is "Ubuntu is under attack" on the sounder list
<LaserJock> mdke: I seemed to me that what they said was that the gettext.xsl calls were redundent because is was called elsewhere
<bshumate> should call it the "cacophony" list ;-)
<mdke> bshumate, you are obviously a masochist :)
<mdke> LaserJock, i didn't follow the discussion closely, you might be right
<theCore> mdke, gettext.xsl wasn't doing anything in those files ...
<bshumate> mdke: naw naw...just fascinated with the sociology of it all really.
<mdke> ;)
<mdke> it's not always that bad
<theCore> macgyver2, the problem was that yelp imported it 4 times 
* mdke nods
<mdke> obviously dapper is gonna be rocket fast in every respect :)
<LaserJock> yeah, good response, fast boot, quick help, it should be a great release
<mdke> GNOME feels faster to me too
<LaserJock> KDE is feeling pretty snappy today for me
<mdke> cool
<theCore> with such fix there's no need to upgrade my PC ;)
<theCore> i will just need to install dapper
<LaserJock> theCore: lol, but think how fast it would be with an upgraded computer ;-)
<mdke> twice as fast
<theCore> LaserJock, yea, but my celeron 533 is doing the job for me
<LaserJock> I've got an AMD 1800+ but will be getting a new iMac G5 after Christmas for work
<LaserJock> those G5's are pretty fast
<theCore> mdke, actually it would be more like 4 or 6 time faster
<theCore> LaserJock, least compatible though
<LaserJock> theCore: yeah, but I can't do anything about that
<LaserJock> have any of you had any experience running Kate in gnome?
<theCore> LaserJock, it worked well for me when I was on FreeBSD
<LaserJock> unfortunately, I really like Gnome but I really like some  KDE apps
<LaserJock> Amarok has worked ok from me in Gnome so far. It takes longer to load but that isn't a big deal
<LaserJock> but I also like Kate, Kile, Kontact, Akregator, and Konsole
<mdke> what is akregator?
<LaserJock> a RSS reader
<theCore> ok I gotta go, I'm going to do bike ride outside at -17 degree celsius with 40 centimeter of snow, it's gonna be a fun ride :)
<mdke> theCore, good luck!
<LaserJock> theCore: stay warm ;-)
<LaserJock> hmm, that was a fast 20
#ubuntu-doc 2005-12-25
<Liz> jsgotangco: 
<jsgotangco> Liz!!!!
<Liz> :)
<Liz> may i pm you?
<jsgotangco> sure
<jsgotangco> robitaille, http://distrowatch.com/weekly.php?issue=20051219#2
<jsgotangco> heh
<jsgotangco> file it under idiot users dept.
<robitaille> "dumb down" and "idot" seem to be the words of the week in Ubuntu-Land
<Madpilot> Linus's comments were last week, actually ;)
<robitaille> ok...last 7 days :)
<jsgotangco> bleah obviously the mini article is just a personal troll
<robitaille> why did he didn't do "apt-get install gcc" and be done with it????  
<robitaille> I don't get it...
<Madpilot> doesnt't build-essential have all that compiling stuff in it?
<jsgotangco> if youre going to package...
<robitaille> yes.  and build-essential will install "gcc", and gcc is at 4.0 in Breezy
<robitaille> unless you want to compile the kernell then you probably want gcc-3.4
<jsgotangco> oh wait
<jsgotangco> he installed 3.x
<jsgotangco> haha
<jsgotangco> i just noticed it now
<jsgotangco> he'll get creamed
<robitaille> maybe I should send an email to te sounder list with it :)
<Burglaptop> robitaille, jsgotangco, think I should write a rebuttal?
<jsgotangco> sure
<jsgotangco> he obviously wrote it as a troll
<Burglaptop> yes but trolls on major news sites need answering
<jsgotangco> yes
<Burglaptop> I think I shall focus on where we are going with dapper, rather than directly answering him
<Burglaptop> robitaille: do you have a default debian install?
<Burglaptop> does a default debian install come with build-essential installed?
<jsgotangco> afaik it doesn't even on the base install cd
<robitaille> http://packages.debian.org/build-essential
<Burglaptop> I will need to make certain that is correct before I write my rebuttal
<bshumate> Burlaptop: where is this troll?! i need it for my thesis!
<bshumate> eyurgh *Burglaptop*
<Burglaptop> bshumate: tab completion is your friend
<robitaille> I keep thinking I should install a debian install on my computer...
<bshumate> Burglaptop: shnikes!
<bshumate> even in gaim it appears to function!
<bshumate> Burglaptop: so where is the troll in this major news site? upon which topic does the sub-bridge-dweller write?
<jsgotangco> bshumate, yes
<Madpilot> http://distrowatch.com/weekly.php?issue=20051219#2
<jsgotangco> about gcc
<robitaille> Burglaptop,  I would ask on #ubuntu-devel or #debian.  Someone must know if gcc comes on by default with a default debian installation. (last time I install Debian was Woody 2 years ago)
<jsgotangco> ask -devel
<bshumate> woweee...lots of free operating systems ship without a compiler, or development tools of any sort-  or some make you select a "Developer" subset of components to install them. it is somewhat sad that his apt-get install gcc didn't leave him with a sane environment, but where's the "dumbing down" part come in?
* bshumate cries
<Burglaptop> bshumate: that was his follishness
<jsgotangco> thats great editing at work
<bshumate> I believe that fine chap Kevin Cole who recently laid the smack down upon me with his high quality UNIX beard would say something like :  it's "Linux for Humans" non?  not "Linux for Developers" 
* jsgotangco cracks up
<Burglaptop> possibly first para (pasting dump)
<Burglaptop> Ubuntu is going to piss some people off. It is also going to make some people love us. That is ok. Ubuntu strives to be the best Linux distribution in existant (Does not every distribution?). We have clear goals and clear objectives. We are opinionated. We make choices, bold choices and sometimes stupid choices, but we make them. This is no different than any other distribution out there. It is just that sometimes ours are a lit
<Burglaptop> tle more bold more out there.
<Madpilot> WTF is a "high quality UNIX beard"?
* jsgotangco doesnt want a high quality unix beard
<bshumate> it's awesome
<bshumate> a quality gnu/linux distribution
* Burglaptop is growing a beard due to forgetting his razor at home and is pretty much trapped at his GF's house
<jsgotangco> won't you get noticed as a computer lovin' redneck?
<whiprush> Burglaptop: a well thought out blog post should do the trick
<Burglaptop> whiprush: currently working on it now
<Burglaptop> then I tell osnews, etc. about it
<bshumate> Burglaptop: yes, but is it of this scope and scale?  :   https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KevinCole   Now THAT is a high-quality UNIX beard!
* whiprush reads it
<bshumate> no offense to Mr. Cole at all of course.  I happen to sport a junior sized beard myself.
<whiprush> Burglaptop: sounds like the guy just needs to be told about build-essential. No big deal, it's on the CD and well documented.
<Burglaptop> whiprush: we need to answer it because it hit distrowatch
<Burglaptop> whiprush: it is more we need to address his hidden objections
<whiprush> like I say in my talks. The tools are available for experts willing to read the documentation.
<whiprush> IMO if the user needs to compile something then we've already failed at that task.
<whiprush> but yeah, I see what you're trying to say.
<Burglaptop> and the whole "ubuntu/gnome dumbed down stuff"
<whiprush> yeah
<whiprush> but that's just the flavor of the month.
<Burglaptop> the way I am wording it will sort of move beyond the debate
<whiprush> there's a silent majority of people who just want their stuff to work. :) 
<whiprush> and we try to provide that.
<bshumate> "Ubuntu dumbed down.  Recently, the new version of Ubuntu GNU/Linux, 8.10 "Enigmatic Emu" was found to have no terminal applications, nor command-line shell environments at all.  Only graphical environments on X further indicating a conspiracy by Microsoft to dumb down this popular distribution."
* bshumate  works on his copy for the Onion
<Burglaptop> bshumate: you need to go one further
<Burglaptop> we simply won't ship an X server or DE
<Burglaptop> nor any tools, nor a kernel
<whiprush> I deal with people like this every day at work.
<whiprush> "I can't root. I can't do foo ..."
<whiprush> just a bit of patience and some guidance goes a long way.
<Burglaptop> clear communication of the goals also helps
<whiprush> I can feel the frustration though, sometimes I want to drive their heads through a wall, but commmunication does the trick.
<whiprush> right
<whiprush> what you just said. :)
<bshumate> Burglaptop: ship the documentation though!!!
<bshumate> cause EVERYONE reads THAT!!! ;-P
<Burglaptop> bshumate: yes, all you get are docs telling you how you should go outside because you dont need a computer
* Burglaptop resists the urge to have more icecream to deal with the pain
<whiprush> Burglaptop: blog soon though, I've been giving it alot of thought and want to do the same and I don't want to collide posts on planet. :)
<Burglaptop> whiprush: should be up within the hour
<whiprush> k
<Burglaptop> I would let me talking about the same subject stop you from blogging
* jsgotangco starts hugging his pcbsd box
<Burglaptop> ok, the pain won. I am having more icecream
<jsgotangco> wow when i try to update dbus im asked to download a quarter of the size of the distro
<jsgotangco> heh
<jsgotangco> haha it removed like 80% of gnome functionality
<Burglaptop> jsgotangco: the ca. mirror must be behind. I don't have the dbus yet
<Burglaptop> whiprush: posted
<whiprush> k
<robitaille> Burglaptop,  the ca. mirror is always a bit behind.  I always point to the uk mirror on my dapper machine
<Burglaptop> robitaille: I am not concerned
<jsgotangco> heh oh well
<jsgotangco> it definitely screwed my unit
<jsgotangco> dbus love =)
<Madpilot> the actual time for the next CC meeting *still* hasn't been posted...
<jsgotangco> yay we'll be meeting all night
<Madpilot> if it's another 1400Z meeting, I can make it but I'd better go to be soon; if it's a 2200Z (or whatever) meeting then I'll be at work...
<jsgotangco> are you on queue?
<Madpilot> for Membership? No, I've been waiting to see when this next meeting is... ;)
<whiprush> Burglaptop: awake still?
<jsgotangco> mr. fridge!
<robitaille> mr. fridge?
<whiprush> no no
<whiprush> jdub is mr. fridge
<whiprush> I merely stock it.
<robitaille> and you are doing a very good job at it
<whiprush> nah nah
<whiprush> need more content
<whiprush> actually ... we need to showcase some docteam work 
<rob1> grrr
* robitaille wishes he had more time to provide actual content
* rob1 same
<rob1> the end of the year is so busy for me
<rob1> all my free time lately has been devoted to getting my wireless network and media centers set up
<whiprush> we're all in the same boat.
<whiprush> so much to do, so little time.
<jsgotangco> whiprush, would fridge jr. do?
<jsgotangco> hehe
<whiprush> a college fridge!
<whiprush> it'd be all beer. :)
<jsgotangco> no no that's not the point
<jsgotangco> the point is to spoil the fun
* whiprush just blogged a rant ...
<jsgotangco> heh
<rob1> mmm.. beer
<jsgotangco> whiprush, my desktop is dumber than your desktop hah
<whiprush> unlikely.
<rob1> jsgotangco, using gnome?
<jsgotangco> yes im very stock gnome while whiprush isn't
<whiprush> hey, so for fun, at our last lug meeting I took a desktop poll.
<jsgotangco> heh
<whiprush> 50/50 gnome/kde.
<whiprush> All stock wallpapers and desktops.
<rob1> its like 80/20 gnome/kde at mine
<jsgotangco> i have a bsd desktop here on kde and it ok
<whiprush> well, my point was that they all had stock desktops.
<Madpilot> whiprush: all stock? where's the fun in that?
<rob1> I guess we are all Linux n00bs
<whiprush> nah...
<jsgotangco> Madpilot, on my part, i just have no time to tweak my desktop
<rob1> well, 80% of us
<whiprush> jsgotangco: bingo!
<Madpilot> tweaking the desktop saves time, though!
<jsgotangco> the easiest tweak isa wallpaper change
<jsgotangco> Madpilot, and for most part, the default works, and i rarely go to gconf
<jsgotangco> although most people coming from windows hate spatial because it reminds them of stock windows95 explorer behavior
<whiprush> yeah.
<Madpilot> spatial's awful - all those windows popping up everywhere...
<whiprush> but, as I've been deploying gnome desktops at work ...
<whiprush> I'm starting to find ...
<whiprush> that people don't care about things like that
<jsgotangco> yes
<jsgotangco> as long as they know how to navigate
<whiprush> they care about more fundamental things
<whiprush> like ... "why can't I print?"
<jsgotangco> right
<whiprush> "I bought a dvd at the store, I put it in, and it doesn't work."
<whiprush> grrr.
<jsgotangco> people udnerstand the change with linux on my side
<jsgotangco> and they're interested to see the difference
<jsgotangco> sure they can make comparisons but it doesnt mean they can't be productive
<Madpilot> whiprush: good rant!
<whiprush> Madpilot: I like to rant.
<whiprush> blog while drunk, it's the best place to be!
<jsgotangco> whiprush, the store clerk tells you "dude you're in asia, that's region 3"
<jsgotangco> heh
<whiprush> To be honest, when linus posted his thing, at work we were like "wow, he can print? dude shouldn't look a gift horse in the mouth."
<whiprush> I mean, when esr did his gnome rant 2 years ago, he didn't even get that far ...
<whiprush> so i guess there's progress being made there. :)
<Madpilot> ha... but I did spend a LOT of time on linuxprinting.org before buying my current HP inkjet...
<whiprush> well, kudos to hp, I've yet to run into a printer from them that they don't have a linux driver for.
<whiprush> recently anyway.
<Madpilot> I nearly bought a Canon... bleh!
<whiprush> we bought at ricoh at work, bad news
<whiprush> rpms for rhel only.
<jsgotangco> we bought a brother...bad news too
<whiprush> we made it work .. but ...
<whiprush> they don't stop by anymore. :)
<jsgotangco> what's worse its an all-in-one machine
<jsgotangco> they didnt even *ask* me
<whiprush> heh
<jsgotangco> they got too excited getting a free printer after buying one
<jsgotangco> greed
<whiprush> the trick is to get a working relationship with the printer guy.
<whiprush> "look dude, we run linux, you buy what I tell you. Or you don't get invited to bar night."
<whiprush> then after a while the local vendor figures it out.
<whiprush> "vote with your dollars" and all that.
<jsgotangco> hmm dapper still doesn't get the automount ntfs parition right
<whiprush> if only consumers had the same buying power as companies. :-/
<Madpilot> en mass, they might - there are twice as many HP printers on the wiki's printer page as any other company...
<whiprush> jsgotangco: I've been wrestling with cups all day so i'm kind of picking on it in the blog post.
<rob1> try a lexmark.. its hit or miss. 
<whiprush> frustration++
<jsgotangco> hmm
<rob1> the older models work best, my lexmark only just began to start working
* jsgotangco waits for newer dbus
<rob1> with dapper
<whiprush> hey so jerome
<whiprush> run this by the doc team dudes for me ...
<whiprush> I'd like to start showcasing doc team stuff on the fridge
<Madpilot> my former printer was an old Lexmark - Z32 - it was only partly working when I moved to Linux, and I never did get it to print properly...
<whiprush> do you guys have like a list of the best ever wiki entries or something?
<whiprush> just some good content that I can point people to?
<whiprush> like a "best of the wiki" or something?
<Madpilot> BasicCommands is good, whiprush
<rob1> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UserDocumentation is about the only list
<whiprush> Madpilot: looking
<jsgotangco> DocteamProjects is pretty good =) but im biased
<rob1> heh
<jsgotangco> so guys
<jsgotangco> is it ok if i proofread the docs this weekend
<jsgotangco> i won't do any invasive changes
<jsgotangco> i'll just make comments to the docs
<rob1> sure, but I dunno how the dg is going
<whiprush> wow, UserDocumentation rocks.
<Madpilot> UserDocs is mostly just "the big list of everything"
<jsgotangco> i can look on it, i won't make any big changes, just comments since i didnt start the doc at all
<whiprush> Yeah
<jsgotangco> i don't want to disrupt the work of other people
<jsgotangco> i think it could work if there are some people who review/proofread
<whiprush> so hey Madpilot ... what do you think about doing something like "Wiki page of the week" or something?
<whiprush> where we do linkage to a certain page...
<jsgotangco> Wiki page of the week
<jsgotangco> hehe
<jsgotangco> how about member spotlight
<jsgotangco> Member of the Week: Jorge Castro
<whiprush> could do that too.
<whiprush> hah
<whiprush> that guy's a loser.
<rob1> heh
<rob1> who is he?
<Madpilot> Page of the Week would be interesting - not sure we've got enough really great wiki pages to go for a lot of weeks, though ;)
<jsgotangco> some beer loving dweeb i heard
* jsgotangco hides
<whiprush> yeah
<whiprush> he's a drunkard.
<whiprush> rob1: he's referring to me. :)
<jsgotangco> he only gets good work done when he's drunk!
<rob1> ah
<rob1> hehe now I get it!
* rob1 is fast
<whiprush> So like, when I was doing thin clients at work, this dude wrote up the entire thing on the wiki.
<whiprush> Surely we can do a page biweekly or something of really gold wiki content.
<Madpilot> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/WhatWindowsUsersWant <-- interesting, but messy to look at
<jsgotangco> that's a pretty old page
<rob1> http://members.cox.net.nyud.net:8090/jmccorm/santa.html
<jsgotangco> that's pre-UDU
<rob1> hehe drunk santa
<whiprush> Can you guys think of a good wiki page that's good quality and relevant to breezy users?
<whiprush> or a certain topic I mean.
<rob1> RestrictedFormats?
<whiprush> hmmm, how about something more general?
<Madpilot> media formats is pretty general, isn't it?
<rob1> thttps://wiki.ubuntu.com/ApacheMySQLPHP?action=show&redirect=LAMPForHoary
<Madpilot> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ApacheMySQLPHP <-- simpler URL ;)
<rob1> -> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ApacheMySQLPHP
<rob1> yeah
<whiprush> Madpilot: yeah but that gets complicated with different countries and whatnot, I was thinking of getting something easy in first.
<whiprush> then move towards more advanced stuff
<rob1> what about https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Cedega
<whiprush> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/NanoHowto
<whiprush> too simple?
<rob1> maybe
<whiprush> oh oh
<whiprush> got one
<Madpilot> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/FoldingAtHome
<whiprush> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/RootSudo
<whiprush> My line of thought is "Brand new ubuntu user."
<Madpilot> that's got to be the most-cited wiki page ever on #ubuntu...
<Madpilot> all the "why didn't I get asked for a root pw" questions ;)
<whiprush> Madpilot: yeah, but the fridge is more general than that.
<whiprush> we're still just getting started
<rob1> whiprush, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MultimediaApplications
<whiprush> it's linked from the homepage. ie. "my mom doesn't go to #ubuntu"
<rob1> very basic, and lots of pics
<whiprush> rob1: oh dude now that's what I dig.
<Madpilot> pictures are good
<whiprush> yeah
<rob1> some good links at the top to other more advanced multimedia stuff if people want to know more also
<whiprush> this page is exactly the kind of stuff I think would go well on the fridge
<whiprush> rob1: exactly!
<whiprush> rob1 / Madpilot: So what are the chances you guys can find pages like this on a regular basis. :)
<rob1> not all are that good
<whiprush> well, we'd have to find the good ones.
<Madpilot> whiprush: well, it might inspire more cleanup efforts :P
<rob1> Madpilot, maybe
<Madpilot> someone recently did a great job on the modem/dailup pages
<whiprush> Madpilot: link?
<Madpilot> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DialupModemHowto
<rob1> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/RootSudo <- isn't bad as a more advanced one for users switching from other Linux distros
<whiprush> rob1: I was thinking the same thing
<whiprush> man .. that dialup page is ouch
<whiprush> didn't realize we sucked in that area so badly.
<Madpilot> whiprush: you should have seen all the pages that one replaced... that was hideous
<whiprush> I can imagine
<whiprush> I think I'll play it safe and go with rootsudo as a writeup.
<whiprush> see how it goes.
<whiprush> are you guys cool with pinging me on cool wiki pages?
<jsgotangco> I heard wiki.ubuntu.com/JorgeCastro is an awesome page
<whiprush> i'd like to get more wiki/docteam content on the fridge ...
<whiprush> but i need someone to yell at me with "hey dude, RUN THIS PAGE!"
<whiprush> and jsgotangco is busy being a speaking star in his hemisphere ...
<jsgotangco> oh drop it will ya
<whiprush> heh
<Madpilot> whiprush: ask on the mailing list, too
<whiprush> ROCK STAR.
<whiprush> Madpilot: I will do so.
<jsgotangco> whiprush, theres really not much awesome wiki entries out there..but will ping you when something comes out as well as update you on docteam news/meetings we haven't been really good on documenting ourselves lately though
<whiprush> well, ideally, if you guys are scrubbing along fixing articles, I'd like to highlight the stuff as it becomes documentation gold.
<whiprush> Like, the dude who did the sunray stuff ... is just /awesome/.
<rob1> man I must be the only freenode staff member anywhere near my timezone
<rob1> just about everyone else is sleeping or been idle for ages
<jsgotangco> lots of requests?
<rob1> strangly no, and currently I'm the only one listed as online
<rob1> gee this is a bit dodgy looking: http://cgi.ebay.com.au/200-FREE-Guaranteed-Make-Money-the-Easy-Way_W0QQitemZ4810436987QQcategoryZ1057QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
<rob1> there is even a dodgy ebay comment from someone else saying how great it is..
<whiprush> ok so fellas, I'll hit up the list tomorrow on fridge-able wiki pages ...
<rob1> okie dokie
<whiprush> jsgotangco: docteam meta-stories will always be accepted of course.
<whiprush> I was mostly asking about normal content.
<whiprush> of course I'll run your meeting summaries, calls for help, etc. etc., as usual.
<jsgotangco> ok wilco
<jsgotangco> err guys
<jsgotangco> how would you react if a long time DD is willing to join the docteam?
<rob1> DD?
<jsgotangco> err
<jsgotangco> nevermind
<rob1> what the heck is a DD?
<jsgotangco> Debian Developer
<rob1> oh
<robitaille> we would welcome him?
<robitaille>  :)
<jsgotangco> hmm but he wants to get paid heh that just deflated my spirit
<rob1> pfft
<jsgotangco> yeah so like i said, nvm
<jsgotangco> =)
<robitaille> jsgotangco,  see it like the paid-developpers in Ubuntu vs the volunteers/motus/etc
<robitaille> if he is paid, then you get a full-time person working on docs.
<jsgotangco> robitaille, i think we're doing good as volunteers, if he gets paid/hired, that's a corporate decision
<jsgotangco> and makes him a visible target (?) for us
<jsgotangco> heh
<rob1> my question is how would decisions then be made? does he get the final say?
<jsgotangco> nah let's not go there....
<robitaille> the doc team makes the final decisions.
<robitaille> it just happens that one member can spend 40+ hours a week helping
<robitaille> anyway, it's not our decision.
<jsgotangco> yep
<rob1> I met a guy last week that is going to set me up with some part-time paid doc writing work next year if all goes well
<robitaille> but generally I would say more staff from Canonical is more a positive than a negative to help the project as a whole
<rob1> it will all be in house stuff though
<rob1> and windows apps
<jsgotangco> rob1, i can hook you up with some as well
<rob1> jsgotangco, sounds good
<jsgotangco> rob1, i'm doing some at the moment for iosn (www.iosn.org) but they need more people in our region
<rob1> hmm 404 not found
<jsgotangco> arrrrgghh
<jsgotangco> iosn.net
<rob1> is it mainly open source stuff?
<jsgotangco> well yeah, its not called IOSN if they sell proprietary stuff
<rob1> heh sure
<jsgotangco> s/sell/promote
<jsgotangco> it may not pay that much compared to other commecial projects but hey its UNDP looks good on your CV
<jsgotangco> =)
<rob1> yeah
<rob1> but still, something is better then nothing
<rob1> and your cv
<rob1> who do I need to contact?
<jsgotangco> well i'll ask sunil first if they need more people
<rob1> ok
<jsgotangco> i'll let you know soonest
<rob1> ok sounds good. thanks jsgotangco 
<rob1> hmm about half an hour until the pool is filled up
<rob1> yay
<jdub> whiprush: ha ha, fridge jr.
<jsgotangco> hey all
<Kaiser_Away> hi jsgotangco jjesse
<jjesse> morning Kaiser_Away 
<jsgotangco> Kaiser_Away, good evening
<jsgotangco> jjesse, :)
<jjesse> morning jsgotangco 
<Kaiser_Away> :)
<jjesse> jsgotangco: started working on release notes for dapper
<jsgotangco> jjesse, yeah i noticed
<jsgotangco> do you want me to grok on the kquickguide this weekend? 
<jjesse> that would be awesome
<jsgotangco> i'm using ubuntu at the moment, but I can easily switch
<jjesse> i will be at my in-laws who are basically !internet this weekend so i will have some time to do some editing of docs
<jsgotangco> lol so internet is a cause for docteam inactivity
<jsgotangco> haha
<jsgotangco> =)
<OgMaciel> hi guys
<OgMaciel> good morning
<jsgotangco> OgMaciel, hey dude
<jjesse> no activity not inactivity
<OgMaciel> jsgotangco, how is it going?
* jsgotangco looks at horrid bootchart result of his laptop at the moment
<jsgotangco> 46 seconds :(
<OgMaciel> wow
<OgMaciel> which part takes the longest for you?
<jsgotangco> ipw2200
<jsgotangco> definitely not acceptable
<OgMaciel> really?
<jsgotangco> i've seen results < 30 seconds
<OgMaciel> I have the same wireless card and it is working fine with me
<jsgotangco> how long did it take on your side?
<OgMaciel> about 20 secs tops
<OgMaciel> definitely not 46
<jsgotangco> wow
<OgMaciel> ;)
<jsgotangco> that's incredible
<OgMaciel> what are you using to benchmark it?
<jsgotangco> for any graphical linux system that's really good
<OgMaciel> sometimes I kill the network detection script
<OgMaciel> that really speends it up
<OgMaciel> hehehe
<jsgotangco> well ok i guess thats the reason
<jsgotangco> mine is just stock
<jsgotangco> cheater!
<OgMaciel> hehehe
<OgMaciel> but what are you using to benchmark it?
<jsgotangco> a toshiba set
<OgMaciel> but you're not using a stopwatch, right?  ;)
<jsgotangco> nah hahaha
<OgMaciel> ;)
<OgMaciel> jsgotangco, which program are you using to "time" it?
<jsgotangco> isn't bootchart doing that?
<OgMaciel> bootchart?  dunno that one
<jsgotangco> oh its a new dapper add-on made by Keybuk
* OgMaciel not using Dapper yet
<jsgotangco> it basically "charts" the boot process and shows how much time its taking for each module/device/etc.
<jsgotangco> its pretty neat, you get a png file for the report
<OgMaciel> I think I saw it on someone's post on one of the planets
<OgMaciel> it is pretty sweet
<OgMaciel> was it Frederico?
* jsgotangco shrugs
<jsgotangco> not sure
<OgMaciel> anyhow, have you heard of anyone having successfully isntalled Dapper on VMWare by any chance?
<jsgotangco> i can try later
<jsgotangco> i have a windows machine that has an eval of  5.5
<OgMaciel> am thinking of giving it a whirl
* OgMaciel has the Linux 5.0 version
<jsgotangco> i download the 5.04 vm and its pretty sweet
<OgMaciel> jsgotangco, I haven't tried VMWare on 64 bits but it should be fine
<jsgotangco> i haven't tried it myself altough i just bought a dual core system a month ago
<OgMaciel> niice
* jsgotangco no time!
<OgMaciel> same here
<jsgotangco> maybe this christmas
<jsgotangco> hehe
<OgMaciel> am only here b/c of the stupid NYC transit strike
<jsgotangco> but my wife will kill me
<jsgotangco> whoa
<OgMaciel> hehehe
<OgMaciel> I hear that
<jsgotangco> there's a transport strike?
<OgMaciel> in NYC
<jjesse> yeah started yesterday right?
<OgMaciel> all buses/trains/subways
<jsgotangco> wow
<OgMaciel> today
<jsgotangco> even cabs?
<OgMaciel> at mid-night
<OgMaciel> nope
<OgMaciel> not cabs
<OgMaciel> but the fares are astronomical
<jsgotangco> that's still terrible, is NY on a gridlock at this time?
<OgMaciel> pretty much
<OgMaciel> jsgotangco, I want to help out with the documentation
<OgMaciel> jsgotangco, can you gimme a quick walk-through?
<jsgotangco> sure
<jjesse> OgMaciel: is there a specific portion of documentation you want to help w/?
<jsgotangco> Ubuntu/Kubuntu?
<jsgotangco> Edubuntu
<OgMaciel> no preference...  whenever you need help the most
<OgMaciel> wherever
<OgMaciel> not whenever
<OgMaciel> ;)
<jsgotangco> well i was thinking of something
<jsgotangco> since some people started writing from the start
<jsgotangco> i wouldnt want to invade their work but still want to help out
<OgMaciel> k
<OgMaciel> makes sense
<jsgotangco> i wouldn't want to disrupt their flow of thought
<jsgotangco> so i was thinking of organizing peer reviews
<OgMaciel> hummm
<OgMaciel> that is an interesting idea
<jsgotangco> we still get to edit the doc, but instead, we do it in comments
<OgMaciel> it would give them (writers) the freedom to go about their work
<jsgotangco> yes
<jsgotangco> let's say i grabbed jjesse's work
<jjesse> jsgotangco: that is a good idea, a lot of sections in a doc get marked status="review" and i always wondered who did the review
<jsgotangco> yes
<jsgotangco> its either 1) they just mark it 2) they forgot to change the mark
<jsgotangco> for example, i wouldn't dive into bhuvan's current work since he already has a TOC from the start
<jsgotangco> but it doesn't mean i can't suggest
<OgMaciel> right
<jsgotangco> so what i do is that i edit parts of the doc but do it in comments
<jsgotangco> so that it doesn't build but its there for him (bhuvan) to notice
<jjesse> or you could go through and make comments on the sections flagged for reivew
<jsgotangco> right
<jsgotangco> exactly
<OgMaciel> and the author would then accept them or not?
<jsgotangco> im pretty sure the author would accept it
<jjesse> that way the maintainer can change them and mark them as complete or whatever the next tag is
<OgMaciel> interesting ide
<OgMaciel> a
<jsgotangco> and people interested in diving in can make a contribution even if its not a writing contribution
<OgMaciel> that all sounds good
<jsgotangco> if we get to start it, we can have a much cleaner doc in the coming milestone releases
<OgMaciel> and it would allow more people to hit the ground running
<jsgotangco> right
<jsgotangco> the setback though is that
<OgMaciel> ?
<jsgotangco> 1) you'd still need commit access to edit the doc and upload
<OgMaciel> hummm
<jsgotangco> 2) or have someone patch it
<OgMaciel> which one would be viable?
<jjesse> both would be viable, start submitting patches you can get svn commit access
<jsgotangco> well there's no problem with some of us, we already have commit access, we just haven't been active in writing lately (others do)
<jsgotangco> DOCU REVU
<jsgotangco> :P
<OgMaciel> jjesse, ok... one question... so far I've only seen the "work in progress" on the web... is that how I should be working?  by reading them and sending in my suggestions via the mailing list?
<jsgotangco> OgMaciel, that's not even accurate if you ask me...
<jjesse> jsgotangco: i agree, i think the docteamproject page isn't as current as it should be
<OgMaciel> hummm
<jsgotangco> the status should work, its only a cron job on the server, but i still suspect if its being done regularly
<jsgotangco> or maybe the status script doesn't work at all
<OgMaciel> I either did not understand the "instructions" on getting started or it is not obvious to me  :/
<jsgotangco> well yes
<jsgotangco> OgMaciel, actually, we're not so good in documenting ourselves :)
<OgMaciel> hehehe
<OgMaciel> jsgotangco, maybe I could help out once I understand the process
<OgMaciel> ;)
<jjesse> heck sometimes we struggle coming to our own meetings :P
<jsgotangco> jjesse, yeah dude i hear ya
<OgMaciel> I hear that
<jsgotangco> OgMaciel, well ok its a pretty simple process
* OgMaciel has a hard time attending the CC meetings
<jjesse> OgMaciel: I started by checking out the source from svn and looking at the docs and just trying to make corrects
<jsgotangco> we basically work in DocBook
<jjesse> corrections
<jsgotangco> you need subversion on your machine so you could checkout a working copy
<OgMaciel> jjesse, lemme chek the wiki again...  don't remember reading anything about svn access
<jsgotangco> you can download the sources but can't commit
<OgMaciel> I see
<jsgotangco> so what you do is make a patch
<jsgotangco> its terribly tedious at the moment
<jjesse> isn't that at w.u.c/DocteamGettingStarted or something likethat?
* OgMaciel is reading the page
<jsgotangco> i think its in DocteamStepByStepRepository
<OgMaciel> jsgotangco, not found
<OgMaciel> ;)
<jjesse> isn't that at w.u.c/DocteamGettingStarted or something likethat?
<jjesse> doh
<jjesse> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocteamStepByStepRepository
<jjesse> thats what i menat :)
<jsgotangco> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocteamStepByStepRepository
<OgMaciel> got it
<OgMaciel> hehehe
<OgMaciel> thanx
<OgMaciel> so the first step is to download the files using svn... then I'll start reading and commenting
<jsgotangco> yeah
<jsgotangco> if you make changes, you can make a patch
<jsgotangco> and send it to the list
* OgMaciel is checking for instructions on creating a patch
<jsgotangco> try editing the styleguide...its a non-invasive doc that needs some review and editing
<OgMaciel> jsgotangco, will do  ;)
<jsgotangco> good night
<jjesse> mdke: master of the wiki? :)
<mdke> lol
<jjesse> fear him he's the master of the wiki
<OgMaciel> hhe
<OgMaciel> hehe
<jjesse> so upon becoming a ubuntu member you get a .ubuntu.com email address?
<OgMaciel> jjesse, yup
<jjesse> so how do i go about getting access to jjesse@ubuntu.com or whatever it is?
<OgMaciel> it is supposed to get created automagically
<mdke> jjesse, it's automatically your launchpad id
<OgMaciel> it gets forwarded to your LP account email
<mdke> at the moment changing it is broken
<jjesse> ah i didn't know that
<mdke> you have to ask a LP admin to change it
<jjesse> any other secret handshakes or something that i'm missing as a member?
<mdke> lol
<OgMaciel> jjesse, atm, lots of patience helps
<OgMaciel> hehe
<mdke> OgMaciel, patience?
<jjesse> OgMaciel: grin im not in a hurry i don't want to be missing out, don't know if someone was supposed to let me know things differently or not
<OgMaciel> mdke, been asking elmo to change my email for 5 weeks now
<mdke> there is no automatic right to free toys...
<mdke> elmo's a busy guy, but I sympathise to an extent ;)
<OgMaciel> hehehe
<OgMaciel> thanx
<OgMaciel> I understand he's got bigger fish to fry
<OgMaciel> but it has reached a certain threshold
<OgMaciel> for he won't even ackknowledge me
<mdke> the more he acknoledges, the more people will ask
<mdke> and the more time he loses
<OgMaciel> mdke, I meant he didn't reply to my emails...  all he had to do was spend 2 secs to say "fuck off" or something... ;)
<mdke> OgMaciel, lol
<OgMaciel> ;)
<jjesse> anyone following the converstation about the channels in #u-m ?
<mdke> OgMaciel, he gets a LOT of mail
<mdke> yeah
<jjesse> what was the issue?
<mdke> no idea
<OgMaciel> jjesse, am there..
<mdke> people get banned and don't know what to do
<OgMaciel> seems to be something between 2 people in here
<jjesse> oh well i got lost in the dicussion about bots, centralized organization and someone getting banned :P
<jjesse> so i went back to work
<mdke> quite right
<OgMaciel> got my email squared away
<OgMaciel> pheeew
<mdke> heh
* Burglaptop is bored, bored, bored
<jjesse> i'm bored bored as well but i'm at work :)
#ubuntu-doc 2006-12-18
<nixternal> thanks mdke, i just got one year of hosting (nixternal.com) for $22! :)
<mpt> gah
<mpt> How do I take a screenshot of a menu?
<mpt> ah, gnome-panel-screenshot --delay=whatever
<mpt> it would be nice if I could do that from the GUI
<tonyyarusso> I don't know of a way to do that, but you can always take a fullscreen and crop if necessary.
<tonyyarusso> byzanz can also do portions of the screen if you want an animated screenshot
<mpt> Yeah, I meant, "how do I take a screenshot at all while a menu is open, given that PgUp is ignored and I can't get to the screenshot menu item without closing the menu" :-)
<mpt> PgUp -> PrtSc
<Burgundavia> gimp can do it
<nixternal> i use ksnapshot and it does it...
<nixternal> you can use the import from imagemagick as well
<tonyyarusso> gimp is nice; you can do it from console as well though, with a number of tools
<mpt> oh, now that's just broken
<nixternal> sleep 5 && import -depth 8 -dither <filename.png>
<mpt> Gimp's screenshot tool is better than Gnome's? :-(
<Burgundavia> gnomes is very basic
<nixternal> kdes is pretty good actually...i have never used the gimp one either
<nixternal> mpt: that must be a gtk+konqi problem. i attached a screenshot of what it looks like in kde
<La_PaRCa> Hey guys. Is there a particular tag to add little flags next to links in the wiki? For example if I wanted to link to something in a different language?
<Burgundavia> La_PaRCa: sorry, don;t know the answer here either :)
<Burgundavia> hey froud
<froud> Hey Burgundavia
<froud> Seasons greetings
<La_PaRCa> hahaha, I'll just get some from rosetta or something
<La_PaRCa> wow, the little flag in rosetta is the same for all languages O_o
<mdke> nixternal: oh, awesome.
<mdke> La_PaRCa: there is a way to add a flag
<mdke> La_PaRCa: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/HelpOnSmileys
<mdke> nixternal: you used my referral code?
<nixternal> yes
<nixternal> thanks for posting that
<nixternal> $22 for an entire year
<nixternal> can't beat that
<mdke> no, you're right :)
<Ubugtu> New bug: #76254 in ubuntu-doc "Point out that WLAN with WEP only" [Undecided,Unconfirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/76254
<Ubugtu> New bug: #76257 in ubuntu-doc "file system compatibility" [Undecided,Unconfirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/76257
<mpt> willvdl, pong
<mpt> cancel that, wrong channel
<willvdl> mpt, hey. just remembered -->#c
#ubuntu-doc 2006-12-19
<nixternal> mdke: http://www.nixternal.com   THANKS!
<mdke> nice job
<rob> new domain name?
<mdke> I recommend the one-click install system if you're looking for wordpress, or similar
<nixternal> ya, im going to setup wordpress in a bit
<Admiral_Chicago> wordpress is slow imo
<nixternal> im trying to create my own theme, but i think i would do better as a brain surgeon right now
<Admiral_Chicago> i use it for a web log i keep.
<rob> bah, works fine for me
<nixternal> just turn off the wysiwyg editor in wordpress and it is great..w/o a doubt the best blogger i have used to date
<nixternal> ya rob, finally broke down and got my own domain, only because of mdke's great offer blogged at http://www.mdke.org :)  (shameless plug)
<rob> heh
* rob takes a look
<mdke> I've reduced the offer now
<mdke> so if any more people sign up, I will get a cut
<mdke> still, it's an excellent discount
<nixternal> rock on
<nixternal> ooh. i have subversion too :)
<rob> I do get free hosting though, unlimited, and $2/month for unlimited pop3 mailboxes, so I can't complain
<nixternal> heck no rob, that is a great deal
<nixternal> i really like the imap feature with dreamhost as well
<rob> but, thats through a friend of a friend
* mdke hugs imap
<nixternal> ya, imap is great when working with multiple computers
<nixternal> however, i have kind of starting using my new laptop as the main setup
<Admiral_Chicago> btw nixternal i found out what was hapenning with the lappy
<nixternal> with the wifi?
<mdke> dreamhost has fairly good webmail too
<Admiral_Chicago> ubuntu doesn't se wl0 at all
<Admiral_Chicago> yea
<nixternal> ya, im looking at the webmail now..it looks similar to what comcast uses
<Admiral_Chicago> lspci shows the hardware but there is only eth0, no wl0
<Admiral_Chicago> not sure how to fix it yet\
<Admiral_Chicago> the drivers are installed and work though
<nixternal> odd it is using wl0 and not eth1 with ndiswrapper, but that is for another channel :)
<mdke> nixternal: could the switching from windows guides for ubuntu and kubuntu be merged, do you think?
<mdke> as in, do you think it is a good idea?
<nixternal> hmm. i think it can be merged, but it would become a fairly large document
<mdke> well, most is common between them, presumably?
<nixternal> the only thing that will pretty much be the same would be the office portions, however there is a lot of common....you got it :)
<mdke> well, the early chapters
<nixternal> true
<mdke> mull it over
<robotgeek> well, i'm back!
<nixternal> it would be a very easy document if we did all command line :)
<mdke> ah, welcome back robotgeek
<nixternal> welcome back robotgeek !!!
<robotgeek> ty
* robotgeek will setup vmware today
<Admiral_Chicago> btw nixternal i'm free for an hour or so, any work you want me to do?
<nixternal> we could create a Synaptic chapter and an Adept chapter and link installation notes from the other chapters to them
<crimsun_> it would be a good idea to merge such work.
<nixternal> ya crimsun_, i kind of feel the same way as well. at first i was a bit of a seperatist, but now that I understand "Ubuntu" it is all about the togetherness :)
<mdke> nixternal: or, make those chapters alternatives, so build one version for Ubuntu, another for Kubuntu
<nixternal> ya, i know that was corny
<mdke> I need to investigate whether that is possible
<mdke> froud would know...
<nixternal> i think it is possible. i mean, jjesse has been working on the adept guide again, so linking to that would be easy
<mdke> froud: do you know if it's possible to develop docbook which is profiled, and then generate non-profiled xml for each profile via xmllint?
<nixternal> mdke: did you take a look at kubuntu/C/games/new_games.xml to see if that is how we might go with breaking up the "Questions"?
<robotgeek> http://rafb.net/paste/results/Sr6j9E38.html would be nice, i think
<robotgeek> however, writing content might be difficult with this format, but makes sharing easier
<mdke> nixternal: well, you should have a sect1 for each game, rather than a sect2
<nixternal> robotgeek: that isn't a bad idea, and then we could actually turn that into a TBH document quite easily as well
<mdke> but otherwise, looks promising
<nixternal> ok. i think i did sect1 for each question..i have to look again
<mdke> robotgeek: yeah, that's what I mean by profiling
<robotgeek> mdke: oh okay. i'm just a poor doc writer :)
<mdke> nixternal: stop saying "question" to describe things that aren't questions!!
<mdke> robotgeek: dude, we just used two different ways to say the same thing, I don't know anything about it, except that it can be done
<robotgeek> :)
<nixternal> well, i broke it into common questions. i.e., Where are the games?, since Kubuntu doesn't come with games pre-installed
<nixternal> or should i just do a sect1 with the topic "Installing games in Kubuntu"
<mdke> oh, I didn't update. /smacks
<nixternal> lol
<mdke> but don't use questions, we abandoned them on purpose a couple of releases back
<nixternal> ok, how about "common topics" then?
<mdke> nixternal: do an introduction for the front page, then a section per game, I think.
<nixternal> ok, that is easy enough
<mdke> you can build on games.xml
<mdke> definitely don't use questions as section titles
<nixternal> alright. i will work that up and commit later, so when you wake up you should have something to look at :)
<mdke> heh. and an arbitration to go to
<nixternal> well, i started the new_games.xml as an idea
<mdke> merge em :)
<nixternal> cool
<mdke> good night
<nixternal> g'nite sir, and thanks again!
<robotgeek> night mdke
* nixternal goes to see what the dog is tearing into :)
<nixternal> i can hear him causing trouble
<robotgeek> nixternal: working on trunk or topic-based-help branch, for kubuntu
<robotgeek> i meant that as a question, btw!
<nixternal> heh
<robotgeek> nixternal: so is the kubuntu stuff in trunk or tbh?
<nixternal> trunk/kubuntu/C
<nixternal> that is the beginnings of tbh
<ryanakca> can I take over bug 76320 , bug 76315  and bug 76312 ?
<Ubugtu> Malone bug 76320 in doc-linux "doc-linux-html is messy and inconsistent" [Undecided,Confirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/76320
<Ubugtu> Malone bug 76315 in doc-linux "Some -HOWTOs have been removed" [Undecided,Confirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/76315
<Ubugtu> Malone bug 76312 in doc-linux "doc-linux-html includes files that automatically open pages online" [Undecided,Unconfirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/76312
<ryanakca> 76312 can be confirmed as well, just waiting to know if I should assign it to myself while I'm at it
<nixternal> issue Madpilot?
<Madpilot> nixternal, you mean the klines? Not sure wtf is going on
<nixternal> nalioth would be my first bet on that one :)
<Madpilot> first one was due to testing the D C C thing in #ubuntu-ops & getting zapped by nalioth's auto-script
<nixternal> ahh
<Madpilot> not sure what the the 2nd & 3rd ones are for...
<Madpilot> apparently the autokill script is now working in -ops too, it didn't used to be
<nixternal> i wonder if he did that purposely or on accident
<Madpilot> no clue
<Madpilot> users who get dropped by D C C attacks in #ubuntu are redirected to #ubuntu-read-topic & then to -ops so we can test to make sure they've fixed their problem
<Madpilot> running D C C is needed to test the fix, obviously, and running that in -ops itself never used to be a problem...
<nixternal> ahh
<mdke> morning
<Madpilot> hi mdke
<mdke> nixternal: thinking about games.xml, I thought maybe you could explore trying a sect1 for each *group* of games, i.e. each type. Dunno if that's workeable or not. also, grab some material from https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Games
* mdke goes to work
<ryanakca> can I take over bug 76320 , bug 76315  and bug 76312 ?
<ryanakca> [20:49]  <Ubugtu> Malone bug 76320 in doc-linux "doc-linux-html is messy and inconsistent" [Undecided,Confirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/76320
<ryanakca> [20:49]  <Ubugtu> Malone bug 76315 in doc-linux "Some -HOWTOs have been removed" [Undecided,Confirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/76315
<ryanakca> [20:49]  <Ubugtu> Malone bug 76312 in doc-linux "doc-linux-html includes files that automatically open pages online" [Undecided,Unconfirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/76312
<nixternal> mdke: when you say section, you mean like Arcade, Cards, Table, etc. or do you mean like KDE Games, GNOME Games, etc.?
<nixternal> and the h.u.c/c/games is a horrid page
<willvdl> hey folks.
<willvdl> what should I do with pages like https://wiki.edubuntu.org/%e9%a6%96%e9%a0%81?
<willvdl> seems to be an attempted translation of our edubuntu wiki frontpage
<willvdl> that stopped after the title was translated
<Admiral_Chicago> contact WillVanDerLeij but you're gone already...
<mr_pouit> Burgwork: ping about medibuntu ? bapoumba told me that you would be interested to add it in the ubuntu wiki (to replace debian-multimedia), but that you still have some questions.
<mdke> nixternal: both, I suppose.
* nixternal scrolls up since he can't remember
<nixternal> ok, i see.
<mdke> use your discretion!
<mdke> I'm told the new ubuntu-docs package is uploaded now, so you should get it in feisty
<ryanakca> nixternal: kk, ty, should I redownload all the howtos from TLDP in a .tar.gz and add an index page for them all?
<ryanakca> or just work with the current ones?
<mdke> nixternal: the Ubuntu version of games.xml is in relatively good shape. Have a look at that, and maybe add to it :) I like the idea of having that file the same for Ubuntu and Kubuntu... after all, kde games work fine in Gnome, and vice versa
<nixternal> +1
<ryanakca> nixternal: can you do me a favor and send me an encrypted e-mail? I'm testing kmail see if gpg decryption works now..
<nixternal> ryanakca: gpg key?
<nixternal> grrr...lp prolly has it
<ryanakca> pub   1024D/E95EDDC9 2006-02-22
<ryanakca> did you get that notice with my mailing lists e-mail?
<nixternal> attempting to get the key now
<ryanakca> kk
<nixternal> sent
<nixternal> i think i did that right
<nixternal> i need to do some key cleaning it seems
<ryanakca> http://rkavanagh.homelinux.org/E95EDDC9.gpg
<ryanakca> lol
* ryanakca needs to get his key signed
<ryanakca> erm... nope
<Lutin> hello Burgwork
#ubuntu-doc 2006-12-20
<bdmurray> hello?
<mdke> hello
<bdmurray> Hi, I was reading over the documentation team repository instructions and I was curious about bug reports versus submitting svn patches to the mailing list.
<mdke> bdmurray: what in particular is your query?
<bdmurray> Are bug reports appropriate if you are submitting a patch yourself?  If not when are bug reports appropriate?
<mdke> you can submit a patch either on the mailing list or via bug report. If you just have a suggestion, or want to point out an error, a bug report is probably the best way
<bdmurray> So, a bug report for suggestions w/o patches and mailing list for patches?
<mdke> tbh, either for either
<mdke> whichever you prefer
<bdmurray> Thinking about it, it seems that trivial (typographical / grammatical) might be best via bug report.  Those requiring discussion might be best submitted to the mailing list.
<mdke> bdmurray: that's fine. Any contribution is most welcome
<bdmurray> okay, thanks
<mdke> bdmurray: anything specifically you're interested in working on?
<bdmurray> mdke: I've been using Ubuntu for a while now but thought I'd read through the documentation. ;)  I wanted to help with things as I notice them.
<mdke> that would be great
<bdmurray> mdke: do you have a minute?
<mdke> bdmurray: yes
<bdmurray> I was looking at http://doc.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/desktopguide/C/linux-basics.html and noticed that some of the sentences are active and some are passive.
<bdmurray> "Starting the Terminal" vs "Switch to Console mode"
<bdmurray> Then looking through the svn repository those phrases appear a lot
<mdke> those are both active, afaik, but I think I see your point
<bdmurray> maybe I don't have the right term then.  but some end in "ing" and some don't.
<mdke> yeah
<bdmurray> What would be the best way to approach that?
<mdke> well, a discussion on the mailing list. I don't recall if our style guide deals with that
<mdke> "Starting the Terminal" sounds appropriate for titles to me, while "Switch to..." sounds like an instruction
<bdmurray> I think that using "Starting" and "Switching" are appropriate because if you read that section that is what you will be doing.
* mdke nods
<crimsun_> mdke: hi
<mdke> ah yay
<crimsun_> (I'm in a meeting; my responses are lagged)
<mdke> crimsun_: flash, is it broken in feisty or is the method for installing it going to change? (lagged responses gratefully accepted)
<crimsun_> it's not known-broken; do you have a case where it fails?
<mdke> it's not working on my system
<crimsun_> where does it barf?
<mdke> it is installed, but doesn't seem to work. And I can't find the update-flashplugin command that used to be around
<crimsun_> update-flashplugin is obsolete; we killed it when we migrated to the betas of 9
<mdke> ok, that explains that
<mdke> mental note to nuke that from the docs
<mdke> so simply installing it should work?
<crimsun_> yes
<crimsun_> ls -l /usr/lib/flashplugin-nonfree* >/dev/null 2>&1 ; echo $?
<mdke> 0
<crimsun_> ok good
<mdke> i saw some posts about removing the package and reinstalling it, I haven't tried that yet
<crimsun_> which Web browser(s) are you testing against?
<mdke> firefox/epiphany
<crimsun_> ls -l /usr/lib/mozilla-firefox/plugins/*flash*
<mdke> nothing
<crimsun_> ls -l /usr/lib/flashplugin-nonfree
<crimsun_> also, do you use a network proxy?
<mdke> whoa
<mdke> matt@kalliope:~$ ls -l /usr/lib/flashplugin-nonfree
<mdke> total 0
<mdke> never seen "total 0" before
<crimsun_> ok, how about ls -l /usr/lib/flashplugin-nonfree-unpackdir
<mdke> yes, that has wgetrc in it
<mdke> and "total 4"
<crimsun_> but no FP9_plugin_beta_112006.tar.gz ?
<mdke> correct
<crimsun_> what are the contents of wgetrc?
<mdke> noclobber = off
<mdke> dir_prefix = .
<mdke> dirstruct = off
<mdke> verbose = off
<crimsun_> ok, so let's rehash: you -do- use a proxy?
<mdke> no
<mdke> at least not knowingly
<crimsun_> ok, please --purge flashplugin-nonfree, then reinstall it
<mdke> if that solves the problem, is it going to lose debugging material?
<crimsun_> no
<crimsun_> it'll be the same problem that has existed since 7.0.63
<crimsun_> there's nothing we can really do about flaky upstream proxies and the like
<crimsun_> I can merge a newer Debian unstable source package, but it won't help this issue at all
<mdke> upstream proxies?
<crimsun_> if your isp does funky things
<crimsun_> (back to your 'knowingly' comment)
<mdke> yeah
<mdke> or potentially I was disconnected during the upgrade?
<crimsun_> that could be it, too
<crimsun_> postinst no longer bails if the package fails to download, because it could prevent other packages from being configured
<mdke> so there is no equivalent fallback command for redownloading afterwards, like with update-flashplugin?
<crimsun_> not a good solution, but it's arguably better than killing a dist-upgrade
<crimsun_> you can try dpkg-reconfigure flashplugin-nonfree
<mdke> really this should all be done from firefox... how hard would that be?
<crimsun_> from within a browser window?
<mdke> well, the window that appears when you try to view a flash page, and you click on the broken window
<mdke> that should install the required package, or dpkg-reconfigure it, if installed already
<mdke> (works now btw, thanks)
<crimsun_> there's no reliable way to hook into that.
<mdke> crimsun_: they are doing it with totem, aren't they?
<crimsun_> Bart and I spent quite a while debugging, and it breaks on too many cases.
<mdke> ah, ok: if you've looked at it already
<crimsun_> mdke: with the plugins? No idea; totem is not used here.
<mdke> there is some plan to install codecs as required by files the user is trying to play, I think
<crimsun_> is that a Ubuntu spec or in the upstream code?
<mdke> Ubuntu spec, but the fact you're not aware of it is making me nervous
<crimsun_> it shouldn't make you nervous; I've had no time to keep up with Ubuntu things in the past month :/
<mdke> it has been quite a prominent spec over the last 6 months though
<mdke> what was it called...
<crimsun_> the education one?
<crimsun_> easy-codec-installation
<mdke> that's it
<mdke> I was only able to find https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopTeam/CommonInstallHook
<crimsun_> lp/distros/ubuntu/+specs
<mdke> so, you think a hook into firefox would be out of the question?
<mdke> if you think it might be a long term option, I'll file a bug or something
<crimsun_> I'll have to look at libgimme-codec
<mdke> that's clearly grounds for me to file a bug
<crimsun_> if it does what I think it does, it won't help at all
<mdke> gah
<crimsun_> it seems to be a wrapper to g-a-i, which will just pull down a package, which will pull down flashplugin-nonfree
<crimsun_> so what can be automated is the fetching of the package, yes, but it won't at all resolve the issue you encountered
<mdke> which won't help?
<mdke> well, it fixes another issue. What about dpkg-reconfigure if the package is already installed?
<crimsun_> may resolve one corner case
<crimsun_> feel free to file a bug, but someone else will have to action it
<mdke> it's already filed
<mdke> bug 36544
<Ubugtu> Malone bug 36544 in epiphany-browser "We should suggest to install the proper package is a plugin is missing" [Wishlist,Confirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/36544
<crimsun_> I'm not at all happy with it.
<mdke> with the bug?
<crimsun_> in ff's case, we're simply reimplementing what firefox already does
<mdke> does firefox actually do it successfully?
<crimsun_> people report that it does.
<crimsun_> several folks in #edubuntu, actually. I was shocked.
<mdke> oh, I thought it didn't.
<mdke> anyway, feel free to adjust the bug report if you disagree
<crimsun_> it's a valid bug report imo
<crimsun_> I'm just not happy with it :)
<mdke> aha
<mdke> i have to sleep, thanks again for your help
<crimsun_> np
<nixternal> mdke: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KubuntuDesktopGuide/Structure#head-703356a6365ef19b1be181925b7e8556d8f6f1bc
<mdke> nixternal: I'm not sure, I think more categories would work better. A user can't really tell what is going to be in a section called "KDE Games". The ubuntu version uses one game per section
<mpt> Are the status="complete", status="review" etc attributes still in use?
<matthewrevell> Morning all
<matthewrevell> In case you don't know me, I work for Canonical as part of the Launchpad team.
<matthewrevell> I'm interested to see if I can help you chaps with documentation for Ubuntu users that explains where Launchpad fits in
<matthewrevell> and how to use it.
<matthewrevell> mdke: Perhaps you might be able to help me with that?
<rob> that sounds pretty useful actually
<matthewrevell> cool :)
<matthewrevell> From what I can see, a thorough explanation of how Launchpad fits into the Ubuntu world is missing, at the moment.
<matthewrevell> I'd like to work as part of the ubuntu-docs team to help provide that.
<mpt> ugh
* mpt runs into a mess with svn
<mpt> "Nuke it from orbit and checkout again. It's the only way to be sure."
<Ubugtu> New bug: #76527 in ubuntu-doc "Abrreviation change at about-ubuntu.xml" [Undecided,Fix committed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/76527
<Ubugtu> New bug: #76326 in kubuntu-docs (main) "Konqueror should be able to parse .lnk files" [Undecided,Unconfirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/76326
<willvdl> is there a discussion anywhere I can read on the policy around translating wiki pages?
<willvdl> hey folks, https://help.ubuntu.com/community/EdubuntuFaq is an Italian translation of the Edubuntu FAQ.
<willvdl> Is it really in the right place?
<newz2000> willvdl: just looked at the moin docs, it seems many people wish there was a way to have multiple translations of the same page automatically built in, which implies that the capability isn't there yet.
<newz2000> i.e. nothing like the content negotiation we use for help.ubuntu.com
<willvdl> content negotiation?
<newz2000> suggested workarounds were to simply link to the translated pages
<newz2000> yeah, that means the webserver automoatically knows what languages you can read and sends you the version you want.
<willvdl> eg h.u.c/pagename/es ?
<willvdl> of course ja
<newz2000> kind of
<willvdl> hmmm. will think on this. thanks
<newz2000> if you ask for index.html and you speak hu then it will look for index.html.hu and give you that if it exists
<newz2000> moin doesn't have that. Instead, you would want to link to EdubuntuFaq/IT or EdubuntuFaq/EN or whatever.
<newz2000> Maybe the docteam knows a better way
<willvdl> I see some of the LoCo teams are doing parallel translations: e.g. https://wiki.edubuntu.org/ItalianRedirect
<willvdl> must be a tonne of work
<newz2000> yeah, that's cool though.
<newz2000> that's one of the charters of the loco teams
<newz2000> (maintaining localized help)
<newz2000> willvdl: see the source of that page? https://wiki.edubuntu.org/ItalianRedirect?action=raw
* willvdl looks
<newz2000> Notice that they used the 'language' feature to specify translated portions of that page
<newz2000> {it} ... {en}...
<willvdl> aha
<willvdl> how does that help I wonder
<newz2000> I think it would only help on small pages like this
<newz2000> I love your little mouse for community. He's cool.
<willvdl> yeah. we like mice
<willvdl> thanks newz2000, gotto run to town
<newz2000> ok, ping anytime. :)
<nixternal> well well well if it isn't my old chap matthewrevell :)
<nixternal> what's up?
<newz2000> my goodness the UWN again was totally packed with awesome information
<nixternal> awesome "old" information :(
<newz2000> only old if you know everything... most of it was new to me. :)
<nixternal> true
<nixternal> hey, get to hacking mailman, and make a "add all to:" and a "ban all" selection
<nixternal> ;)
<nixternal> that would be easier than going through 100 spam emails collected in the mailman traps
<newz2000> I did some mailman hacking this week as a matter of fact...
<nixternal> and the spamassassin on the mailman server is subpar
<newz2000> I added js links that check "reject" for all the pending messages.
<nixternal> probably nees a sa-update if it isn't in cron
<nixternal> if you reject, doesn't the email sender get a notice about it being rejected?
<newz2000> oh, right. I added it to the other option, where it drops the message.
<nixternal> discard
<newz2000> but on my personal mailman, not the ubuntu/canonical mailman
<newz2000> yeah, that's it
<nixternal> but there is a button at the top that will auto discard everything marked defer already
<nixternal> ahhh
<nixternal> ok
<newz2000> not on the version I use.
<nixternal> orly
<newz2000> I'm still running redhat 7.2 on that beast.
* newz2000 hides
<nixternal> haha
<nixternal> thats still a good server, rocking that 2.2 kernel quite hard, unless you have upgraded to at least 2.4 :)
<newz2000> I think that is up to 2.4
<newz2000> I think 7.1 had 2.2
<nixternal> ya, you are right
<newz2000> I've mostly upgraded it to 7.3 via fedora legacy. Next month I'm getting a new server though, so it will have dapper server on it.
<newz2000> a friend is letting me put it in his rack and is only charging $10/mo
<nixternal> i am running a sarge server here, and an edgy server
<nixternal> im moving all of the sarge stuff over to the edgy server eventually
<newz2000> I'm thinking about using edgy...
<nixternal> it is definitely stable
<newz2000> I don't like messing with remote server upgrades though, so I'm a little hesitant
<nixternal> it was up for 2 months before my dog unplugged the power to it
<matthewrevell> nixternal: Howdy :)
<nixternal> yo yo homey :)
<nixternal> how is work? life? and I know how LUGRadio is rockin' :)
<matthewrevell> nixternal: Both work and life are busy, but good :)
<matthewrevell> nixternal: you?
<nixternal> good to hear
<nixternal> same pretty much, finish up this semester tonight with my last final, then i am clear for about a month
<nixternal> just took a marketing/business management consultancy job with the Chicago Cubs as well
<matthewrevell> nixternal: Cool :)
<nixternal> probably about a 6 to 8 month contract
<matthewrevell> nice
<nixternal> ya, i hope there is plenty of free tickets to the games though :)
<Lutin> Burgwork: are you around ?
<Burgwork> Lutin: busy
<Lutin> Burgwork: ok
<bronson> LaserJock: here now.  Sorry about that.
<LaserJock> no problem
<LaserJock> it looks pretty good
<bronson> Thanks.  It's a little disorganized because it's been growing badly...
<LaserJock> I'm the maintainer of the Ubuntu Packaging Guide
* bronson looks it up
<LaserJock> and generally do a fair amount of the packaging doc work around MOTU
<bronson> Ah, good.
<LaserJock> some of the "how to package" type stuff should probably go into the packaging guide
<bronson> I saw that guide earlier.  It's got a lot of information that isn't in my pages and vice versa.
<LaserJock> the repo stuff is also very nice
<bronson> Definitely.
<LaserJock> I wonder if it would also be a good addition to the packaging guide
<bronson> Is there an all-on-one-page verison of the packaging guide?
<LaserJock> I don't think so
<LaserJock> there is a PDF
<bronson> Drat.  Little hard to search.  :)
<bronson> That'll do.
<LaserJock> it'd on help.ubuntu.com
<LaserJock> you don't happen to know docbook XML do you?
<bronson> I do.
<bronson> Or did.  :)
<bronson> Haven't used it in years.
<LaserJock> well, I write the packaging guide in docbook and it's in the doc team svn repo
<LaserJock> you are more than welcome to work on it and incorporate your material
<LaserJock> some of the stuff (particularly the repo material) should also be on the wiki
<bronson> Mostly what I wrote about is how to maintain an apt-gettable repository.
<bronson> The packaging guide doesn't appear to cover that at all...  is that intentional?
<LaserJock> not really
<LaserJock> I hadn't really thought of it before because I don't maintian a repo myself
<LaserJock> but it might be a nice addition
<bronson> I find repos are really handy in many-computer maintenance situations.  For instance, keeping a school's computer lab up to date.
<LaserJock> exactly
<willvdl> I'd love to see that. Would be very valuable
<bronson> OK, I'll see what I can do.
<bronson> I won't worry about package building much since it looks like you've got that covered.
<LaserJock> the info on the doc team svn repo is at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/Repository
<LaserJock> the packaging guide is in the generic/ directory
<LaserJock> I'm kinda busy right at the moment but if you have any questions my email is mantha AT ubuntu.com
<bronson> will do.
<Ubugtu> New bug: #76647 in ubuntu-doc "Searching via apt not covered in Command-Line Package Management" [Undecided,Unconfirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/76647
#ubuntu-doc 2006-12-21
<mdke> I hate it when people don't idle 24 hours in here
<LaserJock> why?
<LaserJock> :-)
<mdke> LaserJock: it means I can't contribute to discussions which took place many hours ago >_<
* mdke emails
<LaserJock> ah the LP thing?
<mdke> well that, but more specifically will's question about translations
<mdke> popey: here?
<popey> yes mdke
<popey> not for long tho
<mdke> popey: sorry I didn't catch up with you today, was a long day
<popey> no probs, I understand
<mdke> all well?
<popey> yeah, work is a bit busy as it's my last week :)
<mdke> oh yeah
<popey> people keep taking me down the pub also
<mdke> heh. down the tapas bar in my case
<popey> :) nice
<mdke> so they can spill wine on me and put christmas hats on me
* mdke puts on his scrooge mask
<popey> haha
<popey> off to bed for me actually
<popey> unless there was anything specific you pinged me for ?
<mdke> popey: no, good night
<popey> nn
<bdmurray> mdke: Looking at the Linux Basics Headings and changing "Switch to Console mode" to "Switching to Console mode", I noticed that phrase appears multiple places in svn tree.  Should I make 1 patch per document, i.e. one for ./ubuntu/C/newtoubuntu/basic-concepts.xml and 1 for ./kubuntu/C/newtokubuntu/basic-concepts.xml? Or one that covers all of them?
<jjesse> sorry a little lagged
<jjesse> but one patch for both
<bdmurray> Okay.  There are actually 4, so one patch for all four?
<jjesse> just worry about what is in /ubuntu/C/ and kubuntu/C is that what you are asking?
<bdmurray> The phrase "Switch to Console mode" appears in /ubuntu/C/, /kubuntu/C/newtokubuntu/ , /kubuntu/C/misc/ and /kubuntu/desktopguide/ .  Should all the occurences be patched?
<jjesse> don't worry about kubuntu/desktopguide
<jjesse> one patch for /ubuntu/C
<jjesse> and one patch for kubuntu stuff would be fine imo
<bdmurray> okay, cool. thanks.
<Ubugtu> New bug: #76016 in ubuntu-doc "Not obvious enough how to contribute to Ubuntu documentation" [Undecided,Confirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/76016
<Burgundavia> ok, grumble
<Burgundavia> mdke: will nuked a bunch of stuff he should have refreshed
<nixternal> Burgundavia: can any of it be saved?
<Burgundavia> nixternal: it has been moved to the help wiki, but he didn't leave refreshes behind
<nixternal> ahhh
<nixternal> need help with them?
<nixternal> i can take a break from this games document
<Burgundavia> nope, done
<nixternal> roger, back to the games doc :)
<nixternal> updated kubuntu/C/games/games.xml with a new look/layout. so far have kde games implemented and will work on more tomorrow..just want to know if the layout is what you are looking for in regards to tbh
<nixternal> mdke ^^
<nixternal> g'nite all
<mdke> Burgundavia: now's your chance
<Burgundavia> willvdl: hey will
<mdke> yay, lots of patches
<matthewrevell> Hey guys
<Madpilot> hi matthewrevell
<matthewrevell> I'm just making some notes about the Ubuntu Yelp format docs, with my suggestions for where we might have another couple of Launchpad mentions. Would it be best to send that to the mailing list?
<Madpilot> yes
<matthewrevell> cool
<matthewrevell> thanks
<TLE> Hey guys, any bugsquashers in here ?
<TLE> I was reading through some of the bugsquashing wiki pages yesterday, and found a number of "old" references in them and I was wondering if somebody wanted to correct them
<TLE> I'd do it myself exept I'm new to WIKI editing and even newer to bugsquashing
<matthewrevell> TLE: When you say "old" references, do you mean that the wiki pages described an old way of doing things?
<TLE> matthewrevell: hey sorry, I was away. At https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuBugDay?action=show&redirect=UbuntuHugDay we have the text "We've now released the beta for Edgy Eft"
<ktogias> I want to work on translating some of the community documentation (help.ubuntu.com/community/) pages to greek...  Should I create the greek pages at the help.ubuntu.com/community/ wiki or it is a bad place for them? Should I instead use the ubuntu-gr.org wiki?
<ktogias> I have created a cuple of "sample" greek pages  under help.ubuntu.com/community/ . I name them as el/EnglishPageName (eg. see help.ubuntu.com/community/el/CommonQuestions).
<ktogias> The pros of this approach is that greek pages are searchable and accessible from the main help.ubuntu.com/community site and links to not yet translated pages point with no modification to the correspoding english ones.
<ktogias> Should I continue working this way on the help.ubuntu.com/community/ (with coordination with my loco team), or should I move and continue at ubuntu-gr.org space?
<mpt> ktogias, as long as you follow a consistent pattern, if we decide later that we need to organize things differently, we can automate whatever change needs to be made
<mpt> (e.g. changing URLs)
<ktogias> ok... I have decided to put everything under help.ubuntu.com/community/el/PageName and create Redirection pages with the corresponding greek name under help.ubuntu.com/community/ (e.g. help.ubuntu.com/community/ ) in order for the page to be searchable by the greek title. I do not use the greek title at first place, because greek characters on urls are translated to hex values resulting in long, ugly and mea
<ktogias> ningless referring urls (eg. help.ubuntu.com/community/%ce%a3%cf%85%cf%87%ce%bd%ce%ad%cf%82_%ce%95%cf%81%cf%89%cf%84%ce%ae%cf%83%ce%b5%ce%b9%cf%82)
<ktogias> Any problem with this approach?
<willvdl> ktogias, is there a Greek LoCo team?
<ktogias> yes... I am a member of it
<ktogias> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/GreekTeam
<ktogias> And we have the ubuntu-gr.org space
<matthewrevell> I delayed mentioning docs in launchpad-user to start speaking to potential user panel people, and thought I'd speak to them about docs at first instead.
<matthewrevell> wrong channel
<willvdl> ktogias, I think translations are better suited to the LoCo team websites. I'm not sure how the other LoCo's do it (having not looked yet)
<ktogias> I think it is a good thing to have the localized documentation centralized to the main help.ubuntu site. Someone with ignorance of the ubuntu-gr.org site, would be able to be aware of the existance of greek docs with a search to the help.ubuntu.com/community site...
<ktogias> And moving the few (at the beginning) translated pages to ubuntu-gr.org will isolate greek docs from the rest documentation and we will have to change links to pages not yet translated to point to help.ubuntu.com corresponding English pages, or have them to point to empty pages (not a good thing for a reader that could continue his reading in english if the greek page was not available)
<willvdl> I agree with you. Thing is there is no current way to handle localisation or content filtering in the moinmoin wiki.
<ktogias> I know :(
<willvdl> what some do is they maintain a working copy of the wiki (rsynced to their site) that gets translated as they go
<ktogias> I find this far more complicated... And who/when should we sync?
<ktogias> This could lead to obsolete/unsyncronized docs in our "mirror"...
<willvdl> I just noticed an Italian group doing that a while back.
<willvdl> well, I'm not really the one to ask but if something like rsync is set properly then it could happen as changes are made
<willvdl> The thing with using unicode titles is that even help.ubuntu.com/community/  becomes hex in the url
<ktogias> Ok... As i see there is not a standard path for having localized Community documentation.... Thanks for your suggestions, I will discuss them with the members of greek loco team.
<willvdl> as mpt said though, as you follow a consistent pattern things would probably work out
<mdke> evening
<Burgwork> evening mdke
<mdke> how goes it Burgwork ?
<Burgwork> not bad
<nixternal> hmm. it seems that the 3d chess game in gnome games only works with opengl, when it states it works in either 2d or 3d mode, and also states it comes with gnu chess as the default ai, however none of this is true with Ubuntu
<Burgwork> no, it works in 2d for me
<Burgwork> in fact, i cannot get it into 3d
<nixternal> hmm. it will not start up in feisty for me (on Kubuntu) because it can't find the glade module
<Burgwork> file a bug
<mdke> sounds like a missing dependency
<nixternal> ya, im looking at the package now
<nixternal> thats what i love about Linux..i find an issue, i report the bug, i fix the issue, and close the bug :)
<mdke> yes, works here on Ubuntu too. Must be a missing dep
<nixternal> ya, i installed python2.4-glade2 and it works
<mdke> easy one :)
<nixternal> hehe
<mdke> bdmurray: nice work on all these patches, much appreciated
<bdmurray> mdke: no problem, thanks.
<bdmurray> I see there are still a couple I have submitted via launchpad.  Are changes applied more quickly when sent to the mailing list?
<mdke> yeah, I guess I've noticed them more prominently
<mdke> bdmurray: are you feeling relatively comfortable about docbook and our other tools? Any questions or anything like that?
<bdmurray> I'm not really clear on the differentiation between the directories in svn.  If that question makes sense.
<bdmurray> Well, I guess it isn't really a question per se.
<mdke> can you explain a bit more?
<bdmurray> when I run 'find . -name '*.xml' | xargs grep -H "Users and Groups"' the phrase appears multiple times in the tree.  Some of which I would expect some of which I wouldn't.
<mdke> in which places?
<bdmurray> I would expect in to show up in kubuntu , xubuntu and ubuntu.  But not in kubuntu/C/misc/linux-basics.xml and kubuntu/desktopguide/C/linux-basics.xml
<mdke> ok, that has an innocent explanation
<bdmurray> and /kubuntu/C/newtokubuntu/basic-concepts.xm
<mdke> kubuntu/C/misc/ is a dump directory to store files which we are not sure about whether we are going to integrate elsewhere
<mdke> kubuntu/desktopguide/ is an old directory that nixternal will remove when he is satisfied that the migration to the new structure has been completed
<mdke> and kubuntu/C/newtokubuntu is the right place :)
<mdke> it's basically because we have recently messed around very significantly with our structure
<mdke> and still need to clean house a bit
<bdmurray> Okay, that makes sense then.
<nixternal> mdke: should I put a NOTE or README in that directory, or even a DO_NOT_USE for the time being?
<nixternal> actually, i could just remove it, because i put the files in kubuntu/C/misc
<bdmurray> maybe there should be a top level README regarding the structure
<mdke> yeah
<bdmurray> because what I was doing wouldn't have found it
<mdke> ok, patches all committed, good job!
<mdke> bdmurray: please poke me or someone else if a patch of yours has not been applied.
<mdke> if you think you will continue to contribute in this way, I'd like to arrange svn access for you so you can do so directly. You seem to know what you're doing
<Ubugtu> New bug: #76542 in ubuntu-doc "Verbage change in basic-concepts.xml" [Undecided,Fix committed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/76542
<Ubugtu> New bug: #76545 in ubuntu-doc "Sentence order change in basic-concepts.xml" [Undecided,Fix committed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/76545
<Ubugtu> New bug: #76547 in ubuntu-doc "verbage change in add-applications-introduction" [Undecided,Fix committed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/76547
<mdke> Seveas: Ubugtu is telling us about bugs which aren't new. Please discipline him in whatever way seems best
<nixternal> lol
<Seveas> mdke, that'sbacklog
<nixternal> i can picture Seveas sitting there spanking his computer...bad computer
<mdke> Seveas: hmm?
<bdmurray> mdke: okay, thanks.
<Seveas> ubugtu was down
<mdke> ah, ok. Those were bugs I just changed the status of, so I got the wrong impression I guess
<Seveas> bugs coming in during downtime will be seen as new at the first reply to that bug when he's back up
<bdmurray> mdke: let me think about the svn access and how much time I can commit.
<mdke> Seveas: ah, that makes sense now, thanks
<mdke> bdmurray: certainly. We don't have any requirements about that, a number of contributors come and go a good deal
<mdke> hell, without me and nixternal svn would fall asleep half the time
<mdke> and jjesse
<bdmurray> heh, okay then I'll help keep it awake.
<mdke> you're on. Welcome aboard
<nixternal> lol
<bdmurray> Thanks.
<nixternal> only because jjesse only recently got his commit rights back
<nixternal> or password correct
<mdke> Burgwork: you ok with bdmurray, right? I'd also quite like to add linuxphotogeek who has been doing some good patches recently
<Burgwork> mdke: sounds good
<bdmurray> Will my username and password for svn commits be the same as for launchpad?
<mdke> yeah
<Burgwork> hey willvdl, did you get my ping earlier?
<willvdl> hey. sorry no. basically logged on and moved away :|
<willvdl> very distracted today
<Burgwork> no worries
<Burgwork> I basically said that if you move stuff from wiki.u.c to the help wiki, leave a refresh behind, as I did with the edubuntu pages you nuked
<willvdl> ah. yes
<willvdl> Burgwork, I made a mistake there, only read the policy bit afterwards.
<Burgwork> no worries
<Burgwork> no major harm done
<willvdl> well, I was cleaning up edubuntu wiki and looked for last edit dates and any references to the moved pages. Those with none got nuked.
<nixternal> mdke: http://paste.ubuntu-nl.org/38275/
<nixternal> have you ever used the <keyword> stuff in a document? will this help with searching possibly?
<bdmurray> hrm, I'm having a hard time making a commit.  Should I be able to now?
<nixternal> you received your password already?
<bdmurray> nixternal: no, I thought mdke said it would be my launchpad username and password.
<nixternal> you will use your launchpad username, but canonical will email you a password
<bdmurray> nixternal: okay thanks.  I'll try and be more patient. ;)
<nixternal> the email will be encrypted, but seeing as you are probably on launchpad and on the team, I am guessing you already sent your key, and then signed the CoC
<bdmurray> Yes, I have a launchpad account and I have sent my key and signed the CoC.  However, I don't see myself in launchpad listed as part of the team.
<nixternal> ok, mdke will add you as soon as he can
<bdmurray> okay, not a big deal.  Do you know how long it takes to get the svn password?  I'm trying to decide if I should sit on the change / patch or e-mail it.
<nixternal> i received mine fairly quick, so from now until i would say a day at the least
<nixternal> as long as they aren't busy and an admin is around to do so
<bdmurray> Cool, thanks for the information.
<nixternal> no problem
<nixternal> are you a Kubuntu user or Ubuntu?
<bdmurray> More Kubuntu, but I have an Edubuntu system around here too.
<nixternal> woohoo!
<nixternal> the Kubuntu side of docs is getting bigger..that rocks
<nixternal> well as it stands, most of the stuff right now is done by jjesse, robotgeek, trappist, and myself, with ryanakca and a couple of others just getting into it
<bdmurray> Some of the documentation seems generic too.
<nixternal> right now on the Kubuntu side of things, just like the Ubuntu side, we are concentrating heavily on the Topic Based Help
<nixternal> also, the About Kubuntu section will get sucked into Ubiquity for a nice presentation while the system is installed
<nixternal> bdmurray: the reason for the generic feeling is because in the beginning a lot of the Kubuntu documentation was sucked from the Ubuntu side
<bdmurray> I didn't really mean generic but that some tools appear in both.
<nixternal> with Edgy docs, we were under a super tight deadline and it got busy quick, but a lot of us were dealing with other things at the same time, making it difficult to concentrate 100%
<nixternal> bdmurray: i know what you meant, but there is a lot of rather generic usage..hopefully with the time we have now we can fix most of that if not all of that
<nixternal> if you are up to it, feel free to grab a section out of trunk/kubuntu/C/ and hack away. i am working on the game section right now, but for the rest of the guys i don't knwo what they might be hacking on
<nixternal> usually, i just send an email to list to find out who is doing what in kubuntu
<bdmurray> Is the projects page in the wiki current?
<nixternal> i'm affraid not
<mdke> generic = good
<nixternal> only if it applies equally is it good though
<nixternal> there were some sections in the old kdg that referred to gnome ways, which really are boogs more than they are being generic
<mdke> sure
<nixternal> but of course, trying to do things the same way that works for all makes life so much easier
<nixternal> i.e., the games section
<nixternal> i have kde game and gnome games pretty much covered..i want to insert some of the popular games, windows replacements (which are already pretty much covered, so possibly a small section with xrefs back to the original content
<bdmurray> lunch time here, cya
<nixternal> and then a small write up that it is possible to play WoW, Quake 4, and such non-natively by using Cedega
<nixternal> like 1 para that it is possible, and that you should review the cedega site, and of course it isn't free, gonna cost ya a few bucks a month/year
<nixternal> cya later bdmurray
<mdke> ma /win 11
<nixternal> heh
* mdke coughs
<nixternal> hehe
<nixternal> thats alright, i find myself trying to change windows by doing cd
<mdke> Burgwork: have you tried the CMSs yet?
<Burgwork> mdke: not yet
<mdke> I can't log in
<Burgwork> ah
<mdke> was my foolishness
<mdke> popey: around?
<jjesse> hello mdke
<mdke> hi jjesse
<popey> mdke: unfortunately just off to bed
<popey> saw the mail though, thanks!
<popey> ooo, a reply from ubuntuclips
<mdke> yeah
<mdke> popey: when you have some more time, we can chat about maybe creating doc.ubuntu.com/screencasts or similar
<popey> yup
<mdke> cool
<mdke> night
<popey> i would also like to see some kind of direction
<popey> I am making it up as I go along
<popey> if peopls have a core list, that would be great
<popey> at the moment I am working off my own list to do, but have taken input from some of the how-tos on help.u.c
<popey> for example the one about dual booting was a direct lift of the dual boot how to
<popey> as was the cd burning one
* mdke nods
<mdke> we can definitely get some ideas going on the doc list
* popey fires a brief reply
<popey> nn
<mdke> night
<popey> oh, and it's my last day at work tomorrow - if you see me on irc after about 3pm, /ignore me, I will likely have had one too many guinnesses
<popey> I should setup some kind of drinking lock on my pc
<mdke> heh, have a good one
* mdke beds too
#ubuntu-doc 2006-12-22
* Starting logfile irclogs/ubuntu-doc.log
-ChanServ(ChanServ@services.)- [#ubuntu-server]  Ubuntu Server Discussions (development and support)
* Starting logfile irclogs/ubuntu-doc.log
<nixternal> ok, have i totally forgotten my xml or what. i want to create a link in kubuntu/C/games/games.xml to ../add-applications/add-applications.xml (kubuntu
<nixternal> err
<nixternal> kubuntu/C/add-applications/add-applications.xml
<mdke> nixternal: you can use <link> or <ulink>
<nixternal> mdke: ok i will change that, i gave olink a shot, <ulink url="../add-applications/add-applications.xml">blah</ulink> is good then
* nixternal beds "g'nite"
<mpt> I never thought that getting involved with Ubuntu would teach me about Hebrew grammar
<Madpilot> the surprising benefits of open-source projects ;)
<Madpilot> how did Hebrew grammar come up?
<mpt> bug 47504
<Ubugtu> Malone bug 47504 in ubuntu-doc "Gender conventions notice in documents" [Medium,Confirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/47504
<Madpilot> ah, that one. I've been letting the bug emails go past unread - hadn't realized it concerned Hebrew specifically
<jenda> nixternal: I read the email - it's a tough position we're in. I'm too tired to think about what to do next, I'll respond later.
<Ubugtu> New bug: #76886 in ubuntu-docs (main) "Software Sources" [Undecided,Unconfirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/76886
<mdke> evening all
<jjesse> hello nnonix
<jjesse> ment this one hello nixternal
<jjesse> :0
<Burgwork> mdke: do you have a quick moment to talk about the website?
<nixternal> hiya jjesse!
<nixternal> hiya Burgwork
<Burgwork> hey nixternal
<mdke> Burgwork: go ahead
<mdke> nixternal: can you give me the link to your khelpcenter mockup pls?
<nixternal> http://blog.nixternal.com/stuff/doc/ktbh
<mdke> thanks
<nixternal> no problemo
<Burgwork> mdke: have you got a good idea of what you are looking for in the new stuff?
<mdke> Burgwork: which new stuff?
<Burgwork> the joomla and drupal tests
<mdke> oh, no. I didn't bother because I spoke to newz yesterday and he said that he would be deciding today
<mdke> Burgwork: he said Joomla was a shoe-in
<Burgwork> right
<mdke> mpt: here?
* mdke is beginning to play around with yelp
<mdke> http://mdke.org/tmp/yelp.png
<bdmurray> looks nice
<mdke> bdmurray: any ideas about how you'd like it to look, what info you'd include?
<bdmurray> nothing brilliant at the moment
<bdmurray> The OpenOffice information seems a bit thin.
<bdmurray> mdke?
<mdke> yeah, it is
<mdke> openoffice has its own docs, I wonder if we can link to them
<mdke> looks like the man pages are in yelp, but that's about it. Suck!
<bdmurray> I was just thinking about adding more about compatability with MS Office.  If you get a Word doc you can open it with OO
<mpt> mdke, yes
<mdke> that would fit well in the New to Ubuntu/Windows section that we hope to get
<bdmurray> maybe a mention that OO is cross platform too so Ubuntu users could get Windows users to install it
<mdke> mpt: I'm playing with the yelp frontpage. Got any thoughts on what to do with it?
<mpt> yep
<mpt> I could draw a picture
<mdke> mpt: lemme just upload the latest screenshot I have
<mdke> mpt: http://mdke.org/tmp/yelp.png
<mpt> cool
<mpt> How are you achieving that?
<mpt> Is it HTML?
<mdke> I think perhaps we can nuke the "contributing" and "getting more help" in favour of a short section in the right hand column
<mdke> mpt: yes, it's dead easy
<mdke> I'll do a couple of patches
<mdke> once we have a good scheme sorted out
<mdke> the right hand column is all hard coded as html
<mdke> mpt: any immediate thoughts? I might just get this uploaded as it is so more people can give feedback.
<mpt> Well, the main issue I think is that it's too much
<mdke> on the left? or everywhere?
<mpt> everywhere
<mdke> go ahead
<mpt> I think the default window should be about half that width
<mpt> and maybe 2/3 that height
<mdke> what's a default window?
<mpt> so that it can go alongside what people are trying to do
<mpt> the default Yelp window size, I mean
<mdke> alright, what would you propose?
<mpt> * drop the category descriptions
<mpt> * say "Ubuntu Help" only once, not three times :-)
<mdke> no one reads window titles, though.
<mdke> maybe twice is enough
<mpt> hmm, true
<mpt> yeah
<mpt> that "some kind of introduction" can be one sentence
<mpt> something like "Enter keywords in the search field, or click a category on the left."
#ubuntu-doc 2006-12-23
<mdke> what do you think of the left/right split? maybe there should be one
<mdke> there are something like 14 topics... they won't fit well
<mdke> we could relegate the "Getting more help" and "Contribute to Ubuntu" topics to the interweb
<mpt> well, if it was ok to put "Getting more help" on the Web site, people would already know to look on the Web site for more help ;-)
<mdke> that makes no sense!
<mdke> all it does it point to the various parts of the internet support community anyway, all it would add is an extra click, to the website
<mpt> ok, but even if it's just a direct link to the Web site, it still needs to be on the front page
<mpt> but the number of topics probably could be reduced
<mdke> oh I see
<mdke> you're not reading my mind.
<mdke> What I meant to say was "relegate the X and the Y topics by adding a sentence about them to the front page"
<mpt> Replace a topic link with a sentence?
<mpt> Wouldn't that take more room?
<mpt> I'm probably not understanding
<mpt> It's too early in the afternoon
<mdke> well, the sentence would be in the right column
<mdke> and have a link to the website
<mdke> the topics would be down the left
<mdke> mpt: i'll try and do a mockup... it's a bit late, I'm explaining myself badly
<nixternal> mdke: for a GNOME app :)  that looks pretty good
<mdke> nixternal: check out the scrollback - mpt has some good ideas for your mockup too
<mdke> or rather, his ideas apply equally
<mpt> I don't think "Games" or "Programming" are suitable as top-level categories
<mpt> and "Office" I'm not sure of, either
<mdke> mpt: what would you do with em?
<mpt> This isn't an index to everything we have help for, it's help on the OS-in-general
<mdke> this is true, but it's nice to have documents available from navigation as well as search
<mpt> Games have their own Help menus
<mpt> That's the navigation
<mdke> mpt: do you think that there is value in documents which talk about what extra applications the user can install? that's essentially what those documents do
<nixternal> mdke: ya, i am going to take some of them into account. we might actually just utilize konqueror with the help:/ linking for our help, since it is better and easier than khelpcenter
<mpt> Not much
<mpt> Maybe a few paragraphs in the section on adding/removing software
<nixternal> im also working upstream on that stuff as well a little bit with kde, awaiting my svn access
<mpt> under "What software can I install?"
<nixternal> i do like the fact of making it skinnier so-to-speak in order to allow the user to read it and do it at the same time
<mdke> mpt: I think you may be right. this would mean essentially nuking games.xml, office.xml and programming.xml
<nixternal> im not nuking games.xml thats for sure :)
* mpt cowers
<nixternal> hehe
<nixternal> mpt: only because i just got done, or am in the process of finishing the games section :)
<mdke> I think it sounds sensible. Obviously, the useful bits might integrate well with the add-applications section, as mpt suggests
<nixternal> oh without a doubt they could fall in the add-applications section
<nixternal> there is a lot that could fall under that as well
<nixternal> since the entire games section is about installing games anyways with a brief exerpt about each game
<mdke> quite
<mdke> I think I'm with mpt on this, it would also ensure that the topics are focused on substantial sections
<mdke> not quite sure the best way to proceed, though. Should we seek further views or simply update the wiki page and get on with it?
<mdke> it seems to me that me, nixternal and mpt are driving this topic-based-help ride so maybe we can just go ahead
<nixternal> it would be nice to get some extra views, maybe open it up for a few days or so and then if we don't get much, lets just go ahead and rock with it
<mdke> alright
<nixternal> holidays will make it difficult right now to get some extra views as well
<mdke> yes, true
<nixternal> mdke: maybe a simple blog post could spark the attention we are seeking about it as well
<nixternal> a "what do you think of this" type post, or unleash it to the wolves in #ubuntu
<mdke> when I have a good mockup, I'll do that, certainly
<nixternal> ya, i need to rework mine as well
<nixternal> ooh, time to roll..dad's birthday
<nixternal> bbiab
<mdke> have fun
<mdke> ah great, I've introduced a crash to yelp with my simple patches :)
<mdke> aha, invalid html
<bdmurray> mdke: I have some time over the holidays and wanted to work some more on documentation, but I haven't received an svn password yet.
<bdmurray> I'm happy to keep sending patches but thought having the write access might be easier.
<mdke> bdmurray: it's waiting on the admins I'm afraid. They may not be working at the moment, I'll try and find one to get it sped up
<bdmurray> mdke: no problem, I understand it is the holidays. ;)
<mdke> chasing up now
<mdke> mpt: http://mdke.org/tmp/yelp.png (you'll need to help with fixing that bullet pointed list
<mdke> but, as a draft, is that better?
<bdmurray> maybe Application Management?  That seems more concise
<mdke> we'll need to improve the names, definitely. The server one is totally out
<bdmurray> The layout looks better though
<mdke> mpt: so, those topics can be reduced by 5 (and we can add 2 from Gnome)
<mdke> net reduction of 3, which should make it an acceptable size
<mdke> mpt_: did you see that last mockup?
<mdke> not sure if you were pinging out
<mdke> you'd have to have a pretty long pingout, mind
<mdke> mpt__: here is one with the topics removed, reordered, and the serverguide reworded: http://mdke.org/tmp/yelp.png
<mdke> oh crap, not reordered
* mdke fixes
<mdke> mpt_: dude!
* mdke slaps mpt_'s connection with a fish
<mpt__> mdke, http://mpt.net.nz/temp/ubuntu-help.png
<mdke> mpt: heh. quite a lot more radical?
<mdke> also, you get to add topics which we haven't written, that's not fair. I can only work with what we have
<mdke> mpt: ok, my last try for the night: http://mdke.org/tmp/yelp.png - quick feedback?
<mdke> it's missing the two topics that would come from Gnome
<mpt> continuous improvement :-)
<mdke> mpt: if I get a working patch I think I'll attach it to a bug somewhere. The stuff in the right hand column needs to be made translatable, and we need to improve the css a bit... but I've been struggling so much with the patch system that I'll be pleased to get a patch out of it
<mpt> ok
<mpt> The bullets problem might merely be because you don't have <ul> ... </ul> around them
<mdke> no, I have em
<mpt> hmm, odd
<mdke> http://paste.ubuntu-nl.org/38453/
<mdke> bug 76944
<Ubugtu> Malone bug 76944 in yelp "Improve yelp index layout" [Undecided,Unconfirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/76944
<mdke> mpt: ok, any more ideas on layout/categories welcome at any time, I am very positive about a great outcome for Feisty
<mpt> excellent
<Ubugtu> New bug: #76952 in ubuntu-doc "basic-concepts.xml is missing the word "them"" [Undecided,Unconfirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/76952
<mdke> oh great, another tutorial website :(
<nixternal> [      mdke]  oh great, another tutorial website :(
<nixternal> haha. they are everywhere
<nixternal> the more that pops up the more different each howto becomes
<mdke> such a shame
<mdke> nixternal: I've written to the guy to ask about why he didn't feel able to contribute directly to the Ubuntu documentation, I suspect however the website makes him money, I don't know
<nixternal> link me
<mdke> I'm referring to the tutorial website that arrived on planet today, hang on
<mdke> http://ubuntu-tutorials.com/
<nixternal> oh wow
<nixternal> ya, i read his post on the planet..the vim one
<nixternal> wow, each post has adsense garbage
<mdke> my blog has adsense too, it's earning me well over $0.02 every day
<nixternal> lol
<mdke> but maybe he does better :)
<mdke> and he has a donation button
<nixternal> i have some as well, but i haven't had one click that i know of
<mdke> I think I'll remove em, they suck
<nixternal> ya, me too
<nixternal> btw, i like your new layout...very clean
<nixternal> i am going to eventually get around to doing a clean theme hopefully from scratch when i get some time
<mdke> nixternal: cool
<mdke> hi mpt
<mdke> mpt: what do you think of this structure of the "New to Ubuntu 7.04?" topic: http://mdke.org/tmp/newtoubuntu.png
* mdke loves bugging mpt
<mdke> popey: around?
<popey> yes
<mdke> popey: do you fancy trying to set up something like doc.ubuntu.com/screencasts?
<popey> sure
<mdke> preferred username?
<popey> using what? drupal or something?
<mdke> for logging in
<popey> in order of preference, alan, popey, alanpope
<mdke> ok
<mdke> popey: query
<popey> already there
<mdke> ah
<popey> oh, hang on, am I not identified
<popey> can you see my replies?
<mdke> no
<popey> doh
<mdke> you'll get an error if you're not identified
<popey> yeah, in another window waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay over there
<popey> :)
* mdke nods
#ubuntu-doc 2006-12-24
<mpt> mdke, why is another tutorial Web site bad?
* mpt catches up with scrollback
<mdke> mpt: several reasons: first it demonstrates that someone was not interested in contributing to our work, and felt the need to establish a separate site. second, users looking for documentation will have to search yet another site.
<mpt> Understood on the first, but as for the second, Google will get it all :-)
<mpt> anyway
<mpt> mdke, there are various kinds of people who are new to Ubuntu 7.04
<mpt> * people who were last using Ubuntu 6.10
<mdke> the search engine in yelp won't, and nor will the one on our website
<mpt> * people who were last using 6.06
* mdke blinks at bullet point 2
<mpt> oh wait, we won't support that
<mpt> So that'll be true for 7.10, but not for 7.04
<mpt> LTS->LTS
<mpt> and LTS-1 -> LTS
<mpt> * people who have primarily been using Windows
<mpt> * people who have primarily been using the Mac
<mpt> * people who haven't really used computers before at all.
<mdke> yes, agreed on all the others
<mdke> one moment.
<mdke> 23:28:24 < mpt> So that'll be true for 7.10, but not for 7.04
<mdke> do you know something we don't?
<mpt> No, this was discussed on ubuntu-devel@ iirc
<mpt> it might not be 7.10, but whatever the next LTS is
<mpt> the plan is to support LTS->LTS upgrading
<mdke> yes, that's true. I thought maybe you had heard that 7.10 would be an LTS release
<mpt> no, I haven't
<mpt> I was just extrapolating
<mdke> fine, carry on
<mpt> So, I suggest a subcategory (or maybe just a page) for each of those
<mdke> well, those coming from other versions of Ubuntu don't currently have any material available. but we could do it that way for the others
<mpt> possibly the last three would all contain links to the same "Parts of the Ubuntu screen" page, aka "Desktop overview"
<mpt> ugh, I'm not good at coming up with names when I'm still in bed
<mdke> mpt: the only categories we have info for in fact are the last one, and the Windows one. On that basis, would you still propose just having two subsections, rather than something along the lines of my screenshot?
<mpt> A-ha, that's a good way to shame me into writing them
<mpt> I'll be more useful doing that than trying to reorganize the "Connecting to the Internet" section, anyway
<mpt> oh, that reminds me
<mdke> I tell you what. Get my latest updates to trunk/ubuntu/C/newtoubuntu, explore, and see what you come up with
<mpt> ok
<mpt> anyway
<mpt> We have a structural problem
<mpt> We are a bunch of writers who don't necessarily know about the things that need writing about
<mpt> Meanwhile there are developers who know the answers, who never write anything
<mdke> yes. Did you see my exchanges with mdz about that?
<mpt> no, where was that?
<mdke> well, about the latter problem
<mdke> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-doc/2006-December/007459.html
<mpt> One way to handle this would be a post to the forums
<mpt> e.g. "Has anyone ever connected a hard disk by a COM port and got Ubuntu to read it? If so, how did you get it working?"
<tonyyarusso> So many matthews.... :P
<mdke> heh. Just searching the forums will sort that out
<mpt> and include the answers
<mdke> I was thinking about this in relation to "Common questions"; identifying common problems via surveys and such
* mpt laughs at http://aptgetanarchy.org/node/6#comment-34
<mdke> heh
<mpt> tonyyarusso, it's a conspiracy
<tonyyarusso> mpt: of course.
<mpt> but people who aren't named Matthew are still very welcome
<mdke> not as welcome as those who are though
<mdke> mpt: btw, in the newtoubuntu.xml doc there are lots of links, which are links to Gnome documents that I haven't yet added to the repository
<mdke> so those won't work
<mpt> Weren't they in the repository already?
<tonyyarusso> hehe.  Probably more important is "Welcome are those with the time to do all the ubuntuy things they'd like to"
<mdke> mpt: don't think so. In any case, I haven't added them because they might still change upstream
<mpt> ok
<mdke> tonyyarusso: you know there are another three Matthews aside from those just mentioned?
<mdke> and probably loads more besides
<mdke> it's cos we are a bit more intelligent than those with other names
<tonyyarusso> mdke: I didn't; that's even more terrifying
* mpt bops mdke with a pillow
<mdke> either that or slightly less intelligent...
<tonyyarusso> Anyway, I'll let you get back to what sounded like work.
<mdke> no, work is much more boring
<mdke> don't tell anyone I said that though
<mpt> This is a simulation of work
<nixternal> if htdig worked in Kubuntu the way it does in SuSE, then doing the TBH would be a breaze
#ubuntu-doc 2007-12-17
<ekimus> hello I just created https://help.ubuntu.com/community/FirefoxMandatoryPreferences could some native english speaker have a quick readthru for mistakes/things that aren't understandable, the steps do work on at least 7.10.... thanks.
<seisen> is bzr always this slow
<dsas> seisen: yes.
<seisen> ok
<seisen> just wondering
<dsas> seisen: are you doing a full branch or a lightweight checkout?
<seisen> full branch I think
<seisen> for xubuntu documentation
<dsas> seisen: Yeah, that can take ages then. apparently bzr 1.0 is faster.
<seisen> I was wondering because its slow as molassas and I have a fast connection
<dsas> seisen: it took me ages to do it as well. once you've done it once, it's fast enough to keep it updated though.
<seisen> good
#ubuntu-doc 2007-12-19
<ubotu> New bug: #177356 in ubuntu-doc "MD5 Checksum differents for ubuntu-7.10-server-i386.iso" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/177356
<ubotu> New bug: #176343 in ubuntu-docs (main) "migration introduction on liveCD is wrong about partitioning" [Undecided,Incomplete] https://launchpad.net/bugs/176343
<ubotu> New bug: #177376 in ubuntu-doc "Kernel Virtual Machine howto: clarity and corrections" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/177376
<ubotu> New bug: #177461 in kubuntu-docs (main) "Typo: additional space" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/177461
<kyleN> hi. I notice the https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopment page has a link to https://help.ubuntu.com/6.10/ubuntu/packagingguide/C/ . But the "6.10" in the URL implies an outdated ubuntu version. So, my question, is there a more recent version of the packaging guide and the link needs to be updated?
<kyleN> I've emailed the ubuntu-doc list with the previous observation/question.
<somerville32> kyleN, The packaging guide is managed on the wiki now anyhow
<kyleN> somerville32: thx. I'm wondering whether the link points to the wrong place though
<somerville32> What is the context of the link?
<kyleN> it refers to the "Ubuntu Packaging Guide" and links to the 6.10 url above
<somerville32> Ok
<somerville32> Ask in #ubuntu-devel about it to make sure you can update it to point to the new work in progress
<kyleN> What is the link to the correct current version of the ubuntu Packaging Guide?
<kyleN> somerville32: my and my workmates are headed out in minutes for holiday cordials and appetizers, so I've posted the question to the ubuntu-doc email list and hope for responses there. Cheers
<somerville32> ok
<somerville32> laters
#ubuntu-doc 2007-12-20
<sommer> mdke: http://www.markshuttleworth.com/archives/134 ...maybe the "daily pdf" can be done for bug #173104
<ubotu> Launchpad bug 173104 in ubuntu-docs "doc.ubuntu.com/  needs updated" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/173104
<sommer> just a thought anyway
#ubuntu-doc 2007-12-21
<bwarrene> longtime linux user - new to Ubuntu.  Now only running Ubuntu 7.04 and Mac OS X Tiger on a couple machines
<somerville32> :)
<ubotu> New bug: #165276 in ubuntu-docs (main) "broken links in G77 & G77-3.4 info files" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/165276
<nixternal> mdke: remember when we were doing the Forums->Wiki stuff and we sent out request emails? well, I got my first response today :)  that was probably a year or so ago we did that
<Liz> speedy of them
<nixternal> tell me about it
<ubotu> New bug: #164975 in ubuntu "Troubleshooting help page out of date (dup-of: 141491)" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/164975
#ubuntu-doc 2007-12-22
<gary4gar>  how to make deb files?
<ubotu> New bug: #178064 in ubuntu-docs (main) "Documentation Error: IP Masquerading" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/178064
#ubuntu-doc 2008-12-16
<DougieRichardson> Anyone around?
<jgoguen> yea
<DougieRichardson> Who is this Juan Sebastian Cano?
<jgoguen> No idea
<DougieRichardson> OK thanks for that. I should have been clearer - any doc team members?
 * jgoguen goes back to his corner :)
<DougieRichardson> ;-)
<DougieRichardson> The guy keeps setting our bugs to fix released and I've no idea who he is
<crimsun> ah, the issue for which i responded to jesse
<DougieRichardson> yeah
<crimsun> dunno what that's on about
<DougieRichardson> checked out some of his other bugs and he has set them to fix released in other projects too
<crimsun> we are seeing a rash of spammers and random people closing/invalidating
<DougieRichardson> If he is a spambot he is pretty sophisticated.
<DougieRichardson> but his bad grammer is a wonder to behold
<DougieRichardson> He popped up in the Fedora boards too
<DougieRichardson> Pretty sure he's doinf it for karma
<crimsun> hah, karma. how useless.
<DougieRichardson> depends on your point of view, but in launchpad terms I quite agree
<DougieRichardson> hi jjesse
<jjesse> hello DougieRichardson
<jjesse> prett confused on all those bugs being "closed"
<DougieRichardson> We were just talking about that
<DougieRichardson> Matthew and I have been resetting them over the weekend
<jjesse> yeah?  antyhing interesting?
<jjesse> i saw mdke had changed a lot
<DougieRichardson> I noticed that he has hammered some other packages - freemind and so on
<jjesse> ouch
<jjesse> we should ban him
<DougieRichardson> I agree
<Rocket2DMn> yeah i saw that guy
<Rocket2DMn> he was confirming his own bugs too i think
<nixternal> jono, mdke, jjesse: if this guy is spamming our LP bugs and what not, we need to look at having his LP account revoked..though he will more than likely create a new account because last I checked you couldn't ban IPs
#ubuntu-doc 2008-12-17
<Saleesh> Is this chat active?
<Saleesh> Dear Ubuntu team. I admire Ubuntu and am currently promoting the same among my friends and business associates. But I would like to do something more for ubuntu. I wish to help in the documentation of "Malayalam" an Indian Language. I am a native speaker of the language and have good command in both Malayalam and English. I have gone through the Malayalam version of Ubuntu and have seen that the translation made is not effective. If you give me a chan
#ubuntu-doc 2008-12-18
<hischild> Good afternoon people! https://help.ubuntu.com/8.10/serverguide/C/ebox.html seems to be wrong. Who should i contact about this?
<hischild>  To be more specific, Ebox is broken on intrepid and can't be used.
<hischild> !ebox
<hischild> stupid bot isnt here ...
<sommer> hischild: ya, we'er currenlty working on that
<sommer> hischild: should have an update soonish... early next week maybe
<hischild> alright, i'll check again later then :-)
<hischild> sommer, thnx
<sommer> hischild: in the meantime there are packages of a newer version of ebox in the ebox ppa
<hischild> i'll give those a go later
#ubuntu-doc 2008-12-19
<ashiswin> hello
<ashiswin> I am a new member
<ashiswin> could mdke please add me
<ashiswin> i have signed up
<ashiswin> ?
<ashiswin> hello
<nixternal> ashiswin: howdy
<ashiswin> yay
<ashiswin> someone is listening
<ashiswin> umm who is a admin for the doc team?
<nixternal> ya, you are in a relatively quiet channel...a lot of people are probably in bed as they are across the pond somewhere
<ashiswin> cos if u r please add me
<nixternal> mdke is the only admin...
<ashiswin> o
<ashiswin> *boo hoo*
 * ashiswin starts to cry
<nixternal> hehe, no worries, he should be up and around in about, oh....4 more hours I am guessing
<nixternal> he is quick to respond when he is awake
<ashiswin> o
<ashiswin> well
<ashiswin> i hope i will b on then
<ashiswin> so howcome ure awake?
<nixternal> what area of the docs are you looking to get involved in?
<nixternal> I am in Chicago waiting for 1 foot of snow
<ashiswin> i'm not sure
<nixternal> it is only 22:15 here
<ashiswin> i wanted to ask him
<ashiswin> where are you in the world
<ashiswin> and 22:15 is late
<nixternal> Ubuntu, Kubuntu, Xubuntu?
<nixternal> Chicago, IL USA
<ashiswin> o
<ashiswin> i am singaporean
<ashiswin> i wanna do ubuntu doc
<nixternal> groovy....then ubuntu docs you shall do...if Matt will have all of that info for you when he comes to
<ashiswin> but how do u do docs?
<ashiswin> u see my windows com conked out and the only thing that works on my com is ebuntu
<ashiswin> ubuntu
<ashiswin> well
<ashiswin> how do i do docs?
<ashiswin> ?
<ashiswin> umm nixternal?
 * ashiswin is so lonely on this silent channel
<nixternal> sorry, working on some dev stuff.... check out https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam for more information
<nixternal> we do all of our docs in DocBook/XML which is a markup language. If you understand HTML, then DocBook/XML will be fairly easly to learn
<ashiswin> ok
<ashiswin> thx
<ashiswin> but for now i will be working on the wiki
<ashiswin> mdke
<ashiswin> ?
<ashiswin> what does TLE stand for?
<ashiswin> Time limit exceeded?
<TLE> no
<hischild> Since i love to see flaws, i often find them. Here's a broken link --> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DevelopmentCodeNames, with the link https://features.launchpad.net/products/launchpad/+spec/grumpy-groundhog
#ubuntu-doc 2008-12-20
<rootsnatch> hello!
<rootsnatch> I want to help out with documentation
<rootsnatch> what can I do to help?
#ubuntu-doc 2008-12-21
<jjcave> can pretty much any application be added to the community wiki and put in the applications list?
<jjcave> can pretty much any application be added to the community wiki and put in the applications list?
<BulatSirazetdino> ï»¿Hi! I've had a look at LatopTestingTeam wiki on Ubuntu.com. Information about currently tested versions of Ubuntu is incorrect, and the list of tested laptops has not been split into supported/unsupported Ubuntu version for a long time now. Should I do the split ? Or is it left this way on purpose ? (crimsun in #ubuntu-laptop suggested to ask at ubuntu-doc mailing list, so I decided to ask here at first, and then go to mailing-list if no 
<DougieRichardson> evening all
<DougieRichardson> Anyone got any experience with modems in Linux? Haven't used one in years and there is a need to update that section of the documentation
#ubuntu-doc 2009-12-14
<AtomicSpark> Anyone awake? :)
<jpds> AtomicSpark: Possibly.
<AtomicSpark> Ha. You tricksters! I was trying to grab the bzr of the server guide and the wiki's example was for kubuntu. :3
<AtomicSpark> It's way too late/early to be that observant.
<AtomicSpark> So the wiki says I can edit something and then submit it? Does that mean there is a public upload access that is... reviewed?
<jpds> AtomicSpark: Bzr branches for the ubuntu-docs are at https://code.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu-docs
<jpds> AtomicSpark: Which wiki are you referring to?
<AtomicSpark> Yes I found that. Just removed the 'k' ;)
<AtomicSpark> Somewhere around https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/Mentoring
<jpds> bzr branches â reviewed, wiki.u.c â open to edits from all.
<AtomicSpark> so how do i submit my edit for review? do i just bzr update?
 * AtomicSpark isn't used to bzr
<jpds> AtomicSpark: http://doc.bazaar.canonical.com/bzr.2.0/en/tutorials/using_bazaar_with_launchpad.html
<AtomicSpark> i figured update was one way. just updated my local checkout.
<jpds> AtomicSpark: I suggest you read: http://doc.bazaar.canonical.com/bzr.2.0/en/mini-tutorial/index.html too.
<AtomicSpark> My question is more what to do, rather than how to use bzr. Am I supposed to checkout the file I want to work on and then push for review? Or is that type of access only avalable to members?
<jpds> AtomicSpark: You have to push it to a separate branch on Launchpad and then submit a merge proposal for it.
<AtomicSpark> Hmm.
<jpds> AtomicSpark: An example of mine being: https://code.edge.launchpad.net/~jpds/launchpad/fix_176396/+merge/16082
<AtomicSpark> That makes sense.
<jpds> (This one is for launchpad though, not the docs.)
<AtomicSpark> In theory, it's the same thing. :)
<jpds> Yep.
<AtomicSpark> Do i need to retain the paths of the original branch? Let's say I want to edit karmic/serverguide/C/file.xml, do I need to have the path karmic/serverguide/C in my branch? or just the file.xml?
<jpds> Either one. :)
<jpds> AtomicSpark: Did you create your own branch first by branching lp:ubuntu-docs?
<AtomicSpark> Yes.
<jpds> Groovy.
<AtomicSpark> I was just going to create another and just copy the relevant file over.
<jpds> AtomicSpark: You can do that with: bzr branch ubuntu-docs my-branches-for-changes .
<AtomicSpark> jpds: So I assume you find it easier to have a global launchpad project and just do individual branches for bugs? probably is the easiest way to go about it. might even be de facto!
#ubuntu-doc 2009-12-15
<mistrynitesh> nixternal: i am reviewing the cli section of docs, came accross explanation for command 'cd'
<mistrynitesh> it says something about using 'cd' with 'sudo', so tested it on konsole
<mistrynitesh> nixternal: when i give 'sudo cd ~' , it shows "sudo: cd: command not found"
#ubuntu-doc 2009-12-16
<AtomicSpark> When pushing my branch for the first time (lp:~atomicspark/ubuntu-docs/karmic), I recieved: Using default stacking branch /~ubuntu-core-doc/ubuntu-docs/lucid at lp-65401296:///~atomicspark/ubuntu-docs
<AtomicSpark> Is this expected and normal?
<skiquel> j1mc!
<skiquel> :)
<j1mc> skiquel: howdy
<j1mc> skiquel: what are you doing in ubuntu-doc?  are you helping with the kubuntu docs?
<Rocket2DMn> AtomicSpark, were yo upresented with any errors when you pushed?
<Rocket2DMn> AtomicSpark, also, you should assign the bug to yourself and mark it In Progress if you're working on it.
<AtomicSpark> Ah.
<AtomicSpark> That works. :)
<AtomicSpark> Sorry if there was... spamming. I was playing around with my branch. Done now.
<Rocket2DMn> its actually easier if you just get a local branch of ubuntu-docs, make your change, then post a patch on the bug
<AtomicSpark> Oh?
<Rocket2DMn> like: bzr diff > ~/some_file.patch
<Rocket2DMn> then just attach that file
<Rocket2DMn> that way the committers don't have to pull from your branch, we can just apply the patch to our own copies
<AtomicSpark> That's much easier for me too. :\
<Rocket2DMn> hehe, good
<Rocket2DMn> well, thank you for helping out AtomicSpark , we really appreciate it
<Rocket2DMn> im gonna sign off right now though, if you post some patches sometime, i'll check them out when i get a chance
<AtomicSpark> So after I post a patch, should I change it to fix commited?
<AtomicSpark> Not quick enough!
<AtomicSpark> So, what is the difference between wiki.ubuntu.com and help.ubuntu.com/community. which should someone use when writing articles for software?
<cody-somerville> wiki.ubuntu.com is not for help docs
<cody-somerville> Its for Ubuntu teams
<AtomicSpark> So why do people push the wiki? Just out of habit or ignorance? :P
<Flannel> AtomicSpark: Help docs are the latter, the former is for team stuffs
<Flannel> AtomicSpark: They're both wikis, depending on your realm of content, each is appropriate
<AtomicSpark> A well disguised wiki. :)
<Flannel> AtomicSpark: Not when you're logged in
#ubuntu-doc 2009-12-18
<Guest56317> hello
<Guest56317> just wondering if somebody can help me with ubuntu 9.10
<Guest56317> experiencing too many crashes
<Madpilot> Guest56317, technical questions are best in #ubuntu
<Guest56317> got ya
<Madpilot> this channel is for the documentation team
<Madpilot> thanks
<Guest56317> ah
#ubuntu-doc 2009-12-19
<AtomicSpark> After I change status to In Progress, assign myself, and then attach a patch, should I change the status or unassign myself so that people dont think that I'm going to apply the patch (since I cannot)?
<Akos> hi everyone
 * ZachK_ enters through cloud and shadow....
<ZachK_> Greetings to you I extend
<Akos> I thank thee for the warm welcome
<Akos> *bows*
 * ZachK_ is somewhat of a Yoda speaker
<Rocket2DMn> hey mdke , if you're around today, I still have some things I'd like to run by you
<Rocket2DMn> otherwise, I'll catch ya after Xmas, so enjoy the holidays :)
#ubuntu-doc 2009-12-20
<SkippyX> Any signs of life in here this fine Sunday?
<j1mc> howdy SkippyX
<j1mc> i'm working on docs now, so i'm kind of busy, but did you need help w/ something?
<j1mc> i can help if it's not too complex.  :)
<SkippyX> Sort of. I'm afraid it seems a bit complex to me. Might not to you (I hope).
<SkippyX> Thanks for the offer.
<SkippyX> Hullo, btw!
<j1mc> SkippyX: Hullo :)
<j1mc> well, feel free to ask your question, and I'll see if I can answer, or . . . maybe someone else will be around
<SkippyX> Here's my circumstance. My father lives down 4 miles of dirt road in the middle of a national forest. His only internet option is dial-up.
<SkippyX> He has 3 computers - 2 laptops and a desktop.
<j1mc> ok
<SkippyX> He would like to be able to sit in his rocking chair with his laptop and connect w/out stringing wires.
<SkippyX> So, I thought "no big deal. do a dial-up server/router sort of thing".
<j1mc> Hm, well, it's not really a question for the doc team, but I can tell you that he would need a router...
<j1mc> and i don't think there are any wireless routers that connect to dial-up services
<j1mc> at least none that i know of
<SkippyX> True.
<SkippyX> None I know of either.
<SkippyX> So, I was thinking of a pc/dial-up server/router mashup
<SkippyX> I posted in the forums, and someone said there was some documentation to be found in the docs, but I can't seem to find it.
<SkippyX> I was hoping someone in here might be able to point me in the right direction.
<j1mc> hmm... if it exists, it would be in the community wiki
<SkippyX> k - let me go check the wiki.
<j1mc> https://help.ubuntu.com/community
<SkippyX> thank you.
<SkippyX> Actually, I'm surprised this isn't a relatively common thing. It's my understanding that dial-up is still widely used.
<j1mc> this page looks like it may be a good place to check: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/NetworkDevices
<j1mc> i have to go, but best of luck.
<SkippyX> Ok - Thank you again for your help!
<j1mc> you're welcome. :)
#ubuntu-doc 2010-12-21
<magn3ts> Hi, I have some suggestions for an immutable ubuntu wiki page. Who can I share these thoughts with/
<magn3ts> Le sigh. Whatever. I guess other people will have to suffer like I did then.
<mdke> magn3ts: you often need to wait a long time for a response here. If it's the Ubuntu team wiki, mail ubuntu-devel. If it's the help wiki, mail ubuntu-doc.
<mdke> cjohnston: yes, I agree and will amend the page
<mdke> cjohnston: feel free to reassign any open bugs there
#ubuntu-doc 2010-12-22
<gobbe> Hello! I'm interested about contributing to Ubuntu documentation
<jjesse> yay
<zkriesse> lol jjesse
<zkriesse> gobbe: Well that's awesome
<gobbe> that should be ;-)
#ubuntu-doc 2010-12-25
<prabhu> how to upgrade from 10.10 to 11.04
#ubuntu-doc 2010-12-26
<vikingur> The page BinaryDriverHowto/Nvidia/ on the wiki mentions a package called linux-restricted-modules-XXX (where XXX is the kernel version) that does not exist for kernels 2.6.30 and later. Those modules have presumably been moved to another package or packages -- the article should be updated to reflect this to avoid confusion when users don't find the package in the repos. Anyone know where the restricted modules are now?
#ubuntu-doc 2012-12-20
<HappyPsychoD> Good day, I found a small issue with the docs at https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Xen for the grub config the name is wrong. It should be whatever shows up in the boot menu and for xen it currently is "Ubuntu GNU/Linux, with Xen hypervisor".
<tsimpson> it's a wiki, you can edit it
<HappyPsychoD> I logged in and it says Immutable Page.
<sagaci> I logged in and I can edit it
<HappyPsychoD> Hmm, let me logout delete cookies and try again.
<HappyPsychoD> Ok, just made the edit. I had to logout, login on launchpad first then logon to the wiki (I had just created my account using the wiki not launchpad), when on the sign-on page I didn't have a Username field, just full name and email address.
#ubuntu-doc 2013-12-16
<slickymaster> morning all
<belkinsa> ballons: ping
<belkinsa> balloons: ping
<balloons> belkinsa, pong
<belkinsa> Well, finally I caught you.  But anyways, about your blueprint action item (the one about documenting the workflow of the team).  Mind if I help on it?
<balloons> belkinsa, not at all
<belkinsa> Thank you.
<balloons> belkinsa, and yes we finally caught up :-) When is a good time for you?
<belkinsa> After 5 PM EST today can work.
<balloons> belkinsa, ping me then and we'll try and get some initial work done. sound good?
<belkinsa> Sure, that works!
<balloons> belkinsa, :-) See you then
<belkinsa> See ya.
<slickymaster> bbl
<belkinsa> balloons: ping
<balloons> belkinsa, give me about 20 mins or so :-)
<belkinsa> Alright.
<belkinsa> balloons, sorry for that.  Computer froze.
<balloons> sorry.. I got swamped with a meeting
<balloons> belkinsa, ^^
<belkinsa> It's cool.
#ubuntu-doc 2013-12-17
<belkinsa> ballons: ping
<cge> I believe I'm being affected by bug 1130352, where old wiki page subscriptions are impossible for me to unsubscribe from. Who should I contact to stop the spam?
<ubot2`> Launchpad bug 1130352 in Ubuntu Website "can't unsubscribe from wiki pages" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1130352
<slickymaster> morning all
<cprofitt> hello all
<knome> hey cprofitt
#ubuntu-doc 2013-12-18
<slickymaster> morning all
#ubuntu-doc 2015-12-14
<pmatulis> i got this added:
<pmatulis> https://codein.withgoogle.com/tasks/?sp-organization=4568116747042816&sp-status=2&sp-is_exhausted=False&sp-search=docs
#ubuntu-doc 2015-12-20
<gloriole> Why the "@" at cmd instruction "@synclient HorizTwoFingerScroll=1" at Lubuntu/Mouse ?
#ubuntu-doc 2017-12-18
<jon_p_> hi everybody
<nishantparhi> hey
<nishantparhi> i am not getting how to pull request on git hub
<nishantparhi> please help
<evilnickveitch> Dear people, if you quit the channel 2 mins after asking for help, you aren't going to get any!
<Naitik> Hi ;)
<sri_> hi
<Guest33378> hi
<Guest33378> hello
<ArnavN> Hi
<ArnavN> How are you doing
<Joshita> Hi Documentation Team!
#ubuntu-doc 2017-12-19
<Nihal> Hi
<prateekrao_> Hi
<arnav> hi
<sabu3> hello
<shreekanth> hi
<Sahil> hi
<Littlewil35> Hello!
<VSauce01> hi
#ubuntu-doc 2017-12-20
<adoadith> Hi
<adoadith> Hello
<adoadith> Hi
<adoadith> Hello
<adoadith> Hello
<adoadith> Anyone
<adoadith> Hello
<adoadith> Hi, Hello
<Danish> hai
<Sagar> Hi Guys
<davidcalle> Hi Guest90394 o/
<davidcalle> Welcome!
#ubuntu-doc 2017-12-21
<Phanthom_Thief> hi
<Phanthom_Thief> hi evilnick, degville, pmatulis and davidcalle
<davidcalle> Hi Phanthom_Thief, welcome
<heeral> hi
<davidcalle> heeral: hello and welcome o/
<heeral> i have to create a app or web page in ubuntu or else?
<heeral> ubuntu 17.10 is not avauilable so which version we download
<davidcalle> heeral: 16.04 will do fine, which task are you doing?
<heeral> installation of ubuntu
<davidcalle> Ah ok :) So yes, 16.04 will be fine!
<heeral> sorry we got it on ubnutu site
<Sounit> hi
<davidcalle> Sounit: hello and welcome o/
<parthpro> hiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii
<parthpro> who are u?
<parthpro> hiii heral work is going on
<davidcalle> parthpro: hi and welcome
<parthpro> thank u
<parthpro> how many task are of this?
<parthpro> like installation are of that
<Varun__> hi
<davidcalle> Hi Varun__ , welcome
<Varun__> Thank You :)
<Varun__> What should I do in this task now?
<davidcalle> Varun__: is it the How-to tutorial task?
<Varun__> Yes.
<davidcalle> Ok, read through each step of the tutorial and try to actually do step 8, you need to submit a screenshot of the result to finish the task
<davidcalle> ...
<heeral> hi
<heeral> if ubuntu os will install in virtual machine
<heeral> it will apply
<davidcalle> heeral: sure!
<LyzardKing_> Hi! I'm the maintainer for ubuntu-make. I need to change the page in wiki.ubuntu.com, but it's set to immutable. Do I need to join the wiki editorson launchpad to be able to edit it?
<davidcalle> LyzardKing_: yes, should do the trick
<LyzardKing_> Ok, thanks!
<davidcalle> LyzardKing_: I'll approve you
<LyzardKing_> Great! Thank you!
<LyzardKing_> request sent! Another question is, the tool is on github, and the up to date ppa is on my launchpad account (one of the changes I need to do to the wiki...). Can I link to my ppa on the wiki?
<LyzardKing_> davidcalle: Thanks for approving the membership. The page still says immutable, is it an option to change or do I just need to wait a while? also, as I asked, can I add a "personal" ppa in the wiki?
<davidcalle> LyzardKing_: I was checking the recent activity on ubuntu-make related things, I guess it would be useful for you to chat with willcooke in #ubuntu-desktop to get access to the ubuntu-desktop/ubuntu-make (unless the Desktop team is not willing to host these packages anymore), but yeah, as the maintainer, feel free to add your PPA, of course
<davidcalle> popey: do you know why it's still immutable? ^
<popey> hm?
<popey> oh
<popey> logout, log back in, make sure you tick the box which has the group name in when you go through the u1 sign on dance
<LyzardKing_> Ok, now I can edit!
<popey> and when in the wiki, do a refresh
<popey> hahah, magic
<davidcalle> Thanks popey :)
<popey> np
<popey> thanks for sorting scummvm out
<LyzardKing_> the magic of logging out and in...Thanks!!
<popey> I pushed it to the store last night
<davidcalle> popey: thanks!
<popey> 2.0.0 in stable :)
<davidcalle> \o/
<aarindom> hi
<davidcalle> Hi aarindom, welcome!
<aarindom> hi i am from google code in
<aarindom> a student
<aarindom> claimed the task
<davidcalle> Yes, I figured, do you need help with a task?
<aarindom> yes about the tutorial
<davidcalle> aarindom: ok, what kind of help do you need?
<aarindom> i have a windows 10 but it is mentioned ubuntu 16.04
<davidcalle> Ah right, you can only do this tutorial on Ubuntu. One way who be to install Ubuntu with VirtualBox
<davidcalle> would be*
<aarindom> can you help me in installing ubuntu
<nikigameplay> I can help you installing ubuntu
<davidcalle> aarindom: you could follow this guide https://blogs.systweak.com/2017/08/how-to-install-ubuntu-on-windows-10-using-virtualbox/
<nikigameplay> I had to install ubuntu on VMWare because website didn't let me to download normally because my laptop is Lenovo and there's an issue with Lenovo laptops
<Dhruv> hi
<Abhy> Hi!
#ubuntu-doc 2017-12-22
<Sharvil> hi
<Sharvil> i am in for the first ubuntu how to tutorial
<Nayana_> hi evilnick, degville, pmatulis and davidcalle
<Kulesh> Hi
<Nayana_> Hi
<parthpro> hii
<Aayushi> Hi! My name is Aayushi and I will be working on some of the UBUNTU tasks.
<devansh> hi
<davidcalle> Hi devansh o/
<dmdabir> hi
<davidcalle> Hi dmdabir and welcome!
<dmdabir> thanks
<Guest67162> Viju has joined Ubuntu .com
<sattu> hey there! community
<sattu> Hi Ubuntu Documentation Team!!
<sattu> Hi evilnick, degville, pmatulis and davidcalle!!
<Dj> may i know where the how to tutorial would be?
<davidcalle> sattu: hello, welcome
<Sagnik> Hi documentation team!
<davidcalle> Hi Sagnik, welcome !
<pavva> hello
#ubuntu-doc 2017-12-23
<Rishi> Hi
<mudit_015> hi there !
<Guest37189> Hi evilnick, degville, pmatulis and davidcalle
<Anuj> Hello
<Anuj> Hello evilnick, degville, pmatulis and davidcalle
<Anuj> How are you all doing ?
<freddie_> hello documentation team! :D
<Deepshul> hi
<Guest87584> Hi!
<Guest87584> so...now what?
<PCGG> Hi everyone!
<Guest87584> hi
<Guest87584> Who're you?
<PCGG> Hello
<PCGG> I'm a 13 year old student
<PCGG> Serious fan of Harry Potter
<PCGG> Does anyone know about HP?
<Guest87584> Me
<Guest87584> I love HP
<PCGG> Let's see.
<PCGG> What is your house?
<Guest87584> Gryffindor
<PCGG> Oh.
<PCGG> Ravenclaw.
<Guest87584> You?
<Guest87584> OH
<PCGG> And your wand?
<Guest87584> Sycamore wood, unicorn core, 14 and a half inchs
<Guest87584> Your?
<Guest87584> I'm 14 by the way.
<PCGG> Acacia, dragon heartstring core, 13 Â¼" in length
<Guest87584> I wanted a pheonix one
<PCGG> I REALLY wanted the Elder
<PCGG> BTW I GTG TTYL
<Guest87584> TTYL
<Guest87584> I like this thing...
<Guest87584> Anyone else around?
<sanjith> hi
<Guest87584> HI
<Guest87584> Who are you?
<sanjith> what's your name
<sanjith> my name is sanjith
<Guest87584> Swamesh
<Guest87584> You're an Indian?
<Dhaniska> Hello.
<Guest87584> HI
<Dhaniska> I have claimed this task only today.
<Guest87584> Who're you?
<Guest87584> Me too
<Dhaniska> My name is Dhaniska. Who are you ?
<Guest87584> Swamesh
<Guest87584> I'm 14
<Guest87584> And you?
<Dhaniska> Could you please tell me about this task ?
<Guest87584> Well, we gotta read the tutorial
<Dhaniska> Right. Thank you.
<Guest87584> I've just started reading it
<Guest87584> Welcome.
<Dhaniska> Oh. Go on then. Best of luck.
<Guest87584> Thanks.
<Dhaniska> Bye, then.
<Guest87584> Bye.
<swameshb> Hi
<swameshb> I'm Swamesh.
<swameshb> Is anyone close to completing the task?
<Sree> Join
<Dhruv> Hi
<Guest57720> what is wrong with the nickname dolphin
<Guest57720> hello how can i change my nickname from Guest57720 back to Dolphin
<swameshb> Hi
<reena-m> hello !!
#ubuntu-doc 2017-12-24
<Vijay> hi
<sh117> hi
<F1nD3R> JOIN
<Pratham> hi
<Asmita> Hi
<Asmita> Hello !!
<Asmita> Can i talk with you ?
<Asmita>  Hi
<Asmita> Hello
<Asmita> Where is page 8
<harshchauhan> hi
<raakesh> hi
<P> hi
<ali> hi
<joshmj> hi!
<darkknight_> hi
<darkknight_> claimed the task recently
