#ubuntustudio-devel 2010-07-12
<ScottL> hi troy_s , i noticed you did some nice work for ubuntu-women
<ScottL> hey, i'm also doing to dive into blender and do some video i think
<troy_s> ScottL: Thanks for that. They asked me to give it a kick so I did.
<ScottL> i'm working on a song and i'll try to make a video of myself standing around my room using node compositing
<troy_s> ScottL: Lyz published the wrong still photo though. Slightly modified.
<ScottL> troy_s, well, it looks real nice, elegant even..refined :)
<ScottL> troy_s, i poked around you website because i saw the blender tag and i saw one of your pictures that showed all the nodes
<ScottL> troy_s, and this tied into other confluencing influences and i'm given blender a wack
<ScottL> troy_s, trouble is my video card, ati stopped supporting it so the new drivers don't work with it
<ScottL> troy_s, and the old drivers which do work with it don't work with xorg1.6 :(
<ScottL> i installed karmic on a spare hard drive and viola, all the drivers and xorg line up and work and my blender works nice and smooth and punchy
<troy_s> Yikes.
<troy_s> Well... Blender has some issues when you get into motion picture work. FFMPEG is the name of the issue. Lol. It works fantastic once you get a custom compile up and running, but getting there can be a bit of a PITA.
<ScottL> troy_s, in the video i'm hoping to have myself playing in front of the computer for the rhythm guitar and other "me"s poking in and out for vocals, lead, back up vocals
<troy_s> ScottL: Ubuntu's ffmpeg is pretty badly behind.
<ScottL> troy_s, will using frames of still instead of video help?
<troy_s> ScottL: Relatively intermediate level as a guess. You basically need to do a few things. If you are interested in knowing what they are, ask. 
<ScottL> troy_s, i am interesting but, alas, for the moment i must attend to my extremely tired, whiny son...man, he's really tired, and therfore really whiny 
<troy_s> ScottL: Well you are dealing with a few things. First thing you need to do is get to a final picture lock aka final cut. Which means cutting all of your footage such that the timing is all perfectly established. You can use opacity to get a feel as to how the 'popups' will look.
<ScottL> troy_s,  keep typing i'll catch back up in a bit
<troy_s> ScottL: Ping me. I'll step you through it.
<ScottL> troy_s, cool, it'll probably be twenty minutes (give or take)
<troy_s> ScottL: No rush.
<ScottL> troy_s, oh, have you heard from cory lately...i pm'ed me a while back and i've tried to catch him on irc, email him (thought about smoke signals) but he's not responding :/
<troy_s> ScottL: He occasionally pings me on IRC when all the planets align.
<troy_s> ScottL: But I think he is avoiding the whole scene as he likely knows he falls back into the timesuck mode.
<troy_s> ScottL: And the family takes a beating.
<troy_s> ScottL: (Not a literal one, LOL)
<ScottL> troy_s, okay, i'm back...tell me about blender please
<ScottL> troy_s, it's just weird that he pinged me and then isn't responding...and a little frustrating actually :P
<ScottL> troy_s, oh, and i don't really like the new font :/  and people are wanting to change some of the studio logos
<troy_s> ScottL: 1) Assembly. Snap your bits together into a loose string. Don't fuss over timing and don't start at the same point all the time. Work from beginning to end and snap it all together. If you take a time out, don't start at the beginning again - start at the middle. The point is very much forest through trees.
<troy_s> ScottL: 2) Rough cut. Refine your timing. Use overlays with opacity where you intend to have popup Scotts so you can see the exact timing. Again, keep forest through trees or your beginning will get finished at the expense of the project. Worry about getting the _whole_ thing done.
<troy_s> 3) Final cut. Lock the timing. Make sure you get things timed as you like as once you head into post production, you _cannot_ adjust the cut. This is referred to as 'picture lock'.
<ScottL> troy_s, you know that makes a lot of sense and it's probably exactly what i /wouldn't/ have done without advice, heh
<troy_s> 4) Post work. This will require keying your little popup heads as rotoscoping is... well... let's say well beyond your patience and ability at this point. This would require you to have shot against white (luminance key) or a solid colour (chroma key.) This will require using nodes generally. You take your strip that you overlaid in the VSE and key them. What results is a travelling mask that leaves little Scott head isolated aga
<ScottL> troy_s, i was going to find a green bedsheet (or buy one specially for this) for the popup scotts
<troy_s> 4.1) You will need help. You only need to worry about 4 when shooting. If you try to use a luminance key against white - it needs to be significantly different exposure from your tones in your skin. As in bright white or pitch black. Chroma key is easier if you can find a consistent tone. It needs to be lit relatively evenly to prevent godawful amounts of post work. When you get to (3), we can cover this in depth.
<troy_s> That's about it.
<troy_s> But make no mistake, what you are trying to do is _intermediate_ ability, which means you can save boatloads of time doing:
<troy_s> A) Tests. Do a short test against your keying background. Make it work. Get a feel for it. Figure out how much work it is with scenario A versus scenario B and get a handle on how you want to approach it. Failure is good as it saves you time.
<ScottL> troy_s, hah, that's exactly what i was thinking, do a miniature just to get the methods down
<troy_s> B) Keep it simple stupid. This is your first project and it is damn intermediate. That means keep it damn simple. Ridiculously simple. So simple that you think it is ridiculous to even bother. Remember, you are doing TWO things here - Doing a simple project _and_ learning a pretty complex program in _two_ areas simultaneously.
<troy_s> ScottL: You are _well_ equipped to do it. But you can't expect magic. Learning any program is hard enough, let alone a process and several techniques.
<troy_s> ScottL: When you itemize all of the Scott Is Learnings, you will see that the list is quite long.
<ScottL> troy_s, oh, i expect to take months to do it :) and craploads of reading on tutorials, forums, and websites
<ScottL> i would also like to use blender to make a ubuntu studio movie later on...like lmms did    http://lmms.sourceforge.net/screenshots.php
<ScottL> look at the bottom-ish of the screen
<ScottL> troy_s, that would be a good thing to have on the front of a reworked ubuntu studio website
<troy_s> ScottL: Months translates into never finished. Which is why I would advise yourself to build up to it so that you end up with a 'I did this and I can do this' attitude from the start. Limping out with an unfinished project will likely kill all future attempts.
<ScottL> troy_s, well, given my available time i would expect two to three months to complete it (of course it's a rather ignorant guess)
<ScottL> troy_s, by the way, this is the article from the magazine that's inspiring me again to work with blender http://www.linuxjournal.com/article/9831
<ScottL> talks pretty heavily about nodes and such
<ScottL> troy_s, seems pretty simple if you take each part alone but it does build up some good stuff
<troy_s> ScottL: It is all pretty "simple", but so is Chinese to someone that knows it. That's one of the toxic terms. ;)
<troy_s> ScottL: Did I ever point you to the UI Garden article on Intuitive is a meaningless term?
<troy_s> ScottL: http://www.uigarden.net/english/easy-intuitive-and-metaphor
<ScottL> troy_s, i think you did, but i'll read it again, you always pick up more when you revisit things
<troy_s> ScottL: It cuts to the bleeding core of our primary issue in Libre software. We make gross assumptions that words mean things. ;)
<troy_s> ScottL: The issue is, at its core, a nasty bit of philosophical semantics. Unfortunately, in order to _cross_ the divide, we really need to figure out how to deal with it.
<troy_s> ScottL: If North American law can more or less define terms in a useful and usable manner via examples and culture, I'd hope that we can do the same for Libre design.
<ScottL> troy_s, bedtime for me, thanks troy
<troy_s> ScottL: Nacth
<troy_s> ScottL: Nacht even
#ubuntustudio-devel 2010-07-14
<ScottL> persia, are you available yet to answer a few questions?
<ckontros> yo yo
<ckontros> ScottL: Kickin' 'round?
<ScottL> ckontros, yes, yes i am
<ckontros> ScottL: Duuuuude. Got a story. Skype or PM?
<ScottL> ckontros, probably pm because the kids are outside and i'm in and out (more in though)
<ckontros> Sure sure. ;)
<falktx> hi guys
<falktx> i have made some modifications to the pulse-jack thing
<falktx> it now auto-creates ~/.pulse/client.conf and disables autospawn
<falktx> there was no other way, since kde 4.5.0 will now use pulseaudio too...
<ScottL> that could be a useful script to studio users
<falktx> i really didnt want to disable auto-spawn... but there really no other way
<falktx> pulseaudio is more annoying then me...
#ubuntustudio-devel 2010-07-15
<quadrispro> hello guys!
#ubuntustudio-devel 2010-07-16
<scott-work> met the guy that does slackermedia in IRC today   http://www.slackermedia.info/
<scott-work> multimedia based on slackware
<scott-work> plus he did the Linux Multimedia Sprint   http://www.skyehaven.net/blog/linux-multimedia-sprint/
#ubuntustudio-devel 2010-07-18
<quadrispro> TheMuso, I'm very happy to have another ubuntu-guy in the team! Please join #debian-multimedia on OFTC
<quadrispro> hi persia!
<ScottL> i hoping to have an SRU for the ardour mute bug for 10.04.1
<ScottL> https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ardour/+bug/581786
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 581786 in Ubuntu Studio "Mute button not enabled by default in Ardour 2.8.6 Lucid AM64" [High,Fix released]
<ScottL> since no one made a patch for the qjackctl renamed port bug it can be handled by backports
<ScottL> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/qjackctl/+bug/490436
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 490436 in qjackctl (Ubuntu) "port renames are ignored" [Undecided,Fix released]
<ScottL> since the ardour bug includes a malformed configuration file and creates an incorrect configuration file in the user's home directory it needed to be handled via SRU
<ScottL> this prevents the incorrect configuration file which really can't be effectively fixed by a patch after installation
<ScottL> however the qjackctl bug is easily fixed via update through backports
<ScottL> i'll push for a backport next
<ScottL> hi troy_s 
<troy_s> ScottL: Greets.
<ScottL> troy_s, i managed to take two videos and alpha one over the other using blender's node editor!
<troy_s> ScottL: It's relatively easy stuff once you wrap your head around nodal compositing.
<ScottL> troy_s, however, i've noticed that blender seems to drop some frames when compositing and rendering to an .avi file
<troy_s> ScottL: It shouldn't.
<ScottL> troy_s, oh, the nodal compositing is easy and it makes easy sense to me
<troy_s> ScottL: The main thing to note is that Blender _only_ knows frames.
<ScottL> troy_s, i had noticed it but expected the frame drop issue to be something i did, however someone (nonKlattu from #oggcastplanet) made a mention of it as well
<troy_s> ScottL: So if you have say, 100 frame piece at 29.97 (30/1.001) you will have 100 frames in Blender. The sync will be off if your framerate is set to say, 25/24, etc. (or even a  flat 30)
<troy_s> ScottL: Haven't seen it. Don't encode to Ogg Theora here - it's shite.
<troy_s> ScottL: Likely the encoder.
<ScottL> troy_s, i started with .png files that i created in inkscape...each frame contained a number that incremented and moved across the screen
<ScottL> troy_s, i created an .avi from these in VSE in blender
<troy_s> ScottL: You can also do what many do which is two pass the whole thing. Work in lossless still images and then encode to the flavour of your choice. Little more hd space, but much versatility and upside.
<ScottL> troy_s, then alpha'd over and dumped this to another .avi
<ScottL> troy_s, hmmm, didn't know that, i will explore it though :)  thanks for the direction
<ScottL> troy_s, oh, a friend of mine is going to help my video this using his HD camera...it's getting interesting :)
<troy_s> ScottL: Needless to say, I have yet to see Blender drop frames so it is almost certainly the encoder side of things. Theora isn't really all that up to snuff.
<troy_s> ScottL: HD is a misnomer.
<troy_s> ScottL: It is like me trying to tell you that a Tango icon will be better if we double the resolution.
<troy_s> ScottL: (Which, I'd add, some will try.)
<ScottL> troy_s, i rendered using ffmpeg and it worked fine, but created a .dvd file
<troy_s> ScottL: That's just the wrapper it denotes. In the encoding settings you can pick which wrapper and what internal codecs you can use.
<troy_s> ScottL: There is a bit of a misunderstanding between wrappers and internal codecs, as you likely know.
<ScottL> troy_s, i've been informed that HD means a specific resolution (something like 1920 x 1080) and some other stuff that i've written down but haven't mentally assimilated yet
<ScottL> troy_s, sorry, having two conversation in two channels...yes, it appears to most certainly be a codec situation
<troy_s> ScottL: There is HD and FullHD or TrueHD - 1280x720 in the former and 1920x1080 in the latter. Still a moot point.
<ScottL> troy_s, my larger issue with the HD is that since the bar is being raised i'll need to bring up my production a bit ;)
<troy_s> ScottL: There have been cameras around for ages that shot HD but they still look like poop regardless of what people try to say. It has to do with receptor size. Basically what you are loosely referring to in your head is cinema - trained up over your 30+(?) years of living and watching movies.
<troy_s> ScottL: It's funny, some think that when shooting HD over film. Not many people realize that film is roughly (depending on ISO and a plethora of other details) three times the resolution of HD.
<troy_s> ScottL: Anyways, the advent of DSLR motion picture work has brought that cinematic look into reality (with other issues such as skew of course.) It is the first time you can actually shoot cinematic looking things _ever_ - HD or otherwise.
<ScottL> troy_s, my friend at work shoots video for weddings and the such, so whatever he has is better than my $350 camcorder ;)
<troy_s> ScottL: Quality is a floating bar. The T2i shoots better quality (if we speak in an agreed upon language) than a 4000$ Panasonic HVX200 
<troy_s> ScottL: The main thing that the video camera of uber-expensive origins fails miserably at is aesthetic of look. The sensor is teeeeeeeeeny. As such, your lenses need to be much much wider to get anything to land on them (basically the projected image needs to be much smaller as it has to land on that sensor.)
<troy_s> ScottL: As a result, because we can't bend optics, the optical nature of the wider lenses remains - depth of field that sees far too much - nothing really out of focus.
<troy_s> ScottL: And _that_ smashes into your 30+ years of visual reading that you have learnt from the movie theatre.
<ScottL> i've read some about DSLR in my Sound on Sound magazine, the prices are coming down a bit, even a Rebel(?) camera and record it
<troy_s> ScottL: So while you may not know what the difference between 'film look' and 'video look' is if I asked you, if I showed you would likely be able to spot it in a heartbeat. Soap operas used video cameras for example, as does some lower end television.
<troy_s> ScottL: The T2i is an incredible investment for anyone interested in motion picture work.
<troy_s> ScottL: http://www.bccamera.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=7_16&products_id=4401&zenid=uscutliaf8c5e9u1jhigmh6u65
<ScottL> troy_s, oh, i've also managed to get a delay in one of the videos starting after the other :) ..so i'm feeling pretty good about what i've learned so far, but of course there will be more hurdles i'm sure
<troy_s> ScottL: Just keep hammering stuff together.
<troy_s> ScottL: It will get closer and closer to those empty words known as "easier" and "intuitive"
<ScottL> troy_s, lol, it is already...the node editor is really simple and understandable to me...just the ignorance of which node i need is hampering me
<troy_s> ScottL: Once you get used to Blender, you may want to check out Ramen too. It has developed pretty well recently.
<ScottL> troy_s, i'm still wrapping up the lyrics and restructuring the song...then i'll rerecord it and finally i'll be ready for the video
<ScottL> troy_s, it's all a gas and cool to be able to complete all in house (literally!) with common equipment (more or less)
<troy_s> ScottL: Once you get all the technical stuff down, then it comes down to getting your head rammed into the nebulous 'how the hell do I create a compelling piece of work with pathos'
<ScottL> troy_s, hopefully, this can show what is capable for musicians, just like you did with the blender video you did
<troy_s> ScottL: Yeah I have no real idea why that thing got the legs it did. There is another one stuck in the pipe. Unfortunately another project has jumped ahead of it in the line.
<ScottL> troy_s, i was talking to someone in #oggcastplanet (i think) and they said it was too "artsy-fartsy"...i told them, DUH, that was the point!  LOL
<ScottL> talking to them about your video, that is
<troy_s> ScottL: Well ... that's an accolade. The day that I see things on the same aesthetic level that the ridiculous ftarddom does in our culture will be the day that I will happily lay down.
<troy_s> ScottL: Seriously... that's like having someone at McDonalds criticize your food.
<ScottL> troy_s, and i suggested to a few people that we could do a compilation album to show off linux based music so that we individually didn't have to do so much work but get a product out there...this might have some legs too :)
<troy_s> ScottL: Our culture is busted.
<troy_s> ScottL: The main problem is that it is one thing to have the distribution and tools at our disposal. It is another to deliver a bloody product that has emotion and is appealing to a given audience.
<ScottL> troy_s, well, they said the liked it and it was impressive
<troy_s> ScottL: If it were all easy stuff, people would be doing it everywhere. The monetary cost isn't even a factor - you have huge studios trying to tickle that nerve with bottomless pockets.
<troy_s> ScottL: While I was going through Uni I remember very vividly the 'If only I had the...' syndrome. It is though we wrap our failures up in the belief that some external thing was the governor between our ability to deliver something.
<troy_s> ScottL: You would need to have a very clear picture of what you want and figure out how to get it. Music wise that is.
<troy_s> ScottL: I'm not entirely certain there is a large enough body of work out there to pull the most compelling bits out of it.
<ScottL> troy_s, the T2i you linked is the camera that the SoS magazine reviewed :)
<ScottL> troy_s, oh i agree with music and the believe that a new piece of gear will make you or your music "better"
<troy_s> ScottL: It's the best option for anyone wanting to shoot motion. Deadly affordable and delivers a solid look because of the huge sensor (in terms of motion picture work.) APS-C sized sensors are smaller frames than traditional SLR, but they are identical in width to professional grade motion picture film camers (24mm wide as the film travels vertically)
<troy_s> ScottL: It obviously would be near impossible to create an Olympic swimming pool with only a shovel, so I'm not ruling out the particular need for certain bits.
<ScottL> troy_s, i've secretly admired tom morello of rage against the machine because he sticks to a pretty small subset of equipment yet is inventive as hell
<ScottL> troy_s, also in my last band the singer/rhythm guitarist was deluded about equipment
<ScottL> troy_s, both are examples of why i try to stick to my stock equipment and explore myself to be more inventive and creative
<troy_s> ScottL: Equipment is a weird thing. I'd hope that the vision always comes first and that the gear is always subservient to that vision. If the gear must come along to serve the vision, so be it. But when the gear leads the vision, there was likely no vision there at all.
<troy_s> ScottL: (Unless of course you are communicating precisely on that wavelength perhaps... making a statement as Mr. McLuhan would have said...)
<ScottL> troy_s, do you remember which format you rendered out your blender video?
<troy_s> ScottL: mpeg4 iirc.
<troy_s> ScottL: May have been an x264 pass for YouGoo? Not entirely certain.
<troy_s> ScottL: There is some secret mojo you can encode to for YouGoo that doesn't get a full re-encode.
<ScottL> troy_s, obviously i need to explore more about rendering options, and i shall
<troy_s> ScottL: Don't sweat it too much... just worry about creating the bits. Encoding is another matter.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2011-07-11
<holstein> astraljava: alternate install with unet worked fine :)
<astraljava> holstein: Good to hear. :)
<astraljava> bug 803645
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 803645 in Ubuntu "Sync mudita24 1.0.3-1 (universe) from Debian unstable (main)" [Wishlist,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/803645
<astraljava> \o/
<ScottL> oh that is good :)
<astraljava> Yup, can be added to meta package now.
<scott-work> abogani: i tested your -lowlatency kernel and it halved stable latency as expected :)
<scott-work> abogani: i was beginning to package it but it would appear that you do not have it in the git repository as before
<scott-work> abogani: should i take the source from your /broken ppa and use it?
<abogani> scott-work: Sorry?
<abogani> I updated git tree few minutes ago...
<scott-work> abogani:  i don't mind using the source from ppa (unless there is a particular reason not to), but i was trying to follow the procedure from before when i noticed it was not in git
<abogani> Could you tell me what exactly are you trying  to do?
<abogani> scott-work: ^
<scott-work> abogani: i was packaging the 3.0 -lowlatency kernel so it can be placed into the repository
<scott-work> ala https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ScottLavender/scratchpad
<abogani> scott-work: Ahhhhhhhhh
<scott-work> :)
<abogani> Simply  replace natty with oneiric in "Clone git Kernel" section. As you can see from http://kernel.ubuntu,com/git I work on latest version and so backport on older ubuntu releases.
<abogani> scott-work: ^
<abogani>  http://kernel.ubuntu.com/git
<scott-work> oh, i feel really stupid now...
<scott-work> i did try to search the git website looking for a 3.0 kernel
<abogani> scott-work: Why? :-?
<scott-work> because i didn't think about 'natty' vs. 'oneiric'
<abogani> :-)
#ubuntustudio-devel 2011-07-12
<falktx> howdy!
<scott-work> hi falktx 
<falktx> hey scott-work
#ubuntustudio-devel 2011-07-13
<astraljava> TheMuso: Cripes! I forgot to ping you about the seeds. :( Noticed the daily CD health check.
<ScottL> astraljava, did cory ever get in touch with you?
<ScottL> if not, maybe we should just go forward and see what breaks
<ScottL> ailo_, can we talk about documentation with holstein ?
<ScottL> TheMuso, unless someone strenuously and vocally disagrees, i think we should move forward with germinating
<TheMuso> ScottL: Ok will try to get to it today.
<ScottL> TheMuso, thank you :)
#ubuntustudio-devel 2011-07-14
<astraljava> ScottL: No, never heard of him.
<TheMuso> ScottL, astraljava, anyone else who worked on the seeds. Here is a list of what has been added/removed, and I think there is a fair amount in here that you may not want on the studio disks. http://paste.ubuntu.com/643670/
<TheMuso> ScottL, astraljava, I am not uploading until I hear back as to whether you wish to make more changes, or go with what is there.
<TheMuso> astraljava, ScottL, the above is from the changelog entry for ubuntustudio-meta with the recent seed changes.
<ScottL> astraljava, i talked to cory via google chat and he's good with what you have done (not that he looked with much depth to be forthcoming)
<ScottL> man, we added a lot without removing that much :/
<ScottL> astraljava, basically i told cory that i thought we should try the " forward, see what breaks, and try to fix it" method
<holstein> whats replacing brasero?
<astraljava> ScottL: Like I said, I merged from Xubuntu without really knowing what not to include. Development stuff, sure, but not really anything outside.
<astraljava> TheMuso: Thanks for the output! We seriously needed to have the discussion, but as you probably noticed, there wasn't any. :-/
 * persia notices backscroll and wonders why abiword should be included.  Same for orage, parole, vinagrr
<astraljava> We didn't have any office tools by default before? Okay, I'll scratch all of that.
<astraljava> No idea what the rest are.
<astraljava> So with abiword, we ought to get rid of gnumeric, too?
<persia> Depends on the plan.
<persia> If we think people need to be able to do flyers and calculate how much money they lose for signing with a major label, then perhaps we want those tools.
<persia> Alternately, we could tell folk who want an office suite to install one of libreoffice, gnome-office, or Calligra, depending on their preference.
<persia> orage is a calendar, parole is a media player, vinagre is a remote desktop client.
<persia> Again, there might be good reasons to have them.
<astraljava> persia: For Xubuntu, or us? Once again, desktop is pretty much directly copied from Xubuntu's. I left out some pretty obvious choices only (e.g. development tools and the like)
<persia> There are definite reasons for Xubuntu to have that stuff.
<persia> But I always presumed there was a reason that we had a separate desktop seed, related to wanting/not wanting certain things from Ubuntu Desktop.
<persia> If we want to have the same behaviour when using Xubuntu, I would expect the same filters to be applied.
<persia> If we just want the Xubuntu Desktop as-is, with our stuff on top, then we could just have "xubuntu-desktop" in our seed, or not even have an ubuntustudio-desktop package, and just have the other ones.
<astraljava> persia: I highly doubt we want it as-is, hence the discussion. But stuff like "there might be good reasons to have them" only apply for the reason that it's currently a product of direct copying.
<astraljava> persia: I am just not well-enough informed to make the call for removing individual packages.
<astraljava> That's why we wanted, especially, Cory's input on it.
<astraljava> persia: Ahh... your meaning wasn't "there might be reasons why they are there", but rather "there might be reasons people would want them to be there". Gotcha. Sorry. :)
<persia> I firmly believe that for Ubuntu Studio to be useful, it has to provide a coherent experience based on some vision.
<persia> I'm not at all confident that I understand that vision: I have opinions, but I know I don't have enough time to keep track of what folk are thinking closely.
<persia> So, if having an office suite is part of that coherent experience, then it needs documentation targeting the Ubuntu Studio userbase, etc.
<persia> But I believe it to be different than the past experience, and wasn't sure if that was intentional.
<astraljava> Yep. Well, Scott can put his foot down on this, once we have gathered enough input on the matter. Your points were excellent, though, so thanks! I'll keep that in mind.
<persia> Heh, yeah :)  I should also say: nice work in sorting the migration.
<persia> It will be nice to have buildable images again.
<astraljava> Agreed, I hate when we couldn't test. Also, I'm highly stoked to see the new desktop. :)
<falktx> hey there
<astraljava> Hi falktx!
<falktx> hi
<falktx> are the new ISOs building now?
<falktx> (gnome-session and lash fixed?)
<astraljava> At least I didn't receive any notion of uninstallable binaries in the daily health check, but I haven't attempted a test install yet.
<astraljava> err... s/binaries/packages/
<astraljava> Nah, installation still fails, and obviously so because Luke just informed us that he hadn't updated the seeds due to confusing nature of desktop's contents.
<falktx> ah, too bad
<astraljava> falktx: If you could, please take a look at the desktop in the ubuntustudio.oneiric seed.
<astraljava> We could use the opinion in the application selection area.
<falktx> I can take a quick look
<falktx> it seems like oneiric has more GCC bugs than natty had
<ScottL> astraljava, i have luke's pastebin and i'll parse it later today (hopefully, work is pretty busy again)
<ScottL> hi falktx 
<astraljava> ScottL: Yeah, no sweat. We still have a few weeks until alpha-3 (but time flies) :D
<ScottL> yes and i still want to make additional changes to add new plugins, etc, one xfce is sorted, so that makes the time even shorter
<falktx> ScottL: did you ever tested my xfce menu patch for real?
<falktx> I can see a lot of plugins missing
<falktx> guitarix is not available, so it should be added
<falktx> yoshimi is a good choice too
<falktx> hm, it seems to me the seed are very short right now... did someone removed lots of apps?
<falktx> I can't see invada-plugins in there, but I remember US using it before
<falktx> ah! generation.seed adds a few more
<astraljava> I see plugins in audio-common and audio-plugins
<falktx> damn, I need to sleep
<scott-work> astraljava: did you ever get ubuntu studio installed on your mac?  did you dual-boot by chance?
<astraljava> scott-work: I never got the mac. I had some financial issues, and when they were resolved, Apple had switched from nVidia to ATi/AMD, so I didn't bother anymore.
<scott-work> ah, gotcha
<scott-work> one of the hosts for the "terminal geeks" podcast is thinking about using a mac and was curious about dual booting it
<astraljava> I understand there's nothing really irky about it anymore. EFI works really well for that.
<scott-work> astraljava: what is EFI?
<scott-work> oh, and i'm still going to get you information about the back porting situation, there's just too many irons in the fire for my time
<astraljava> scott-work: No fear, natty/lucid is not going anywhere for a while. :)
<astraljava> scott-work: The BIOS equivalent on Macs, I believe.
<charlie-tca> EFI is something in the 64bit macs, that's the reason we have have a special release for mac 64
<astraljava> The Unified Extensible Firmware Interface BIOS (UEFI) is a specification that defines a software interface between an operating system and platform firmware. UEFI is a replacement for the older BIOS firmware interface present in all IBM PC-compatible personal computers. (from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unified_Extensible_Firmware_Interface)
<astraljava> I don't see how that limits to 64-bits only, though.
<charlie-tca> I don't understand much of it, but there is something about the 64bit system that requires a special cd spin
<persia> EFI is an earlier revision of UEFI, used by Apple, Dell, HP, and maybe some other folk.  Apple did it first, and in a special way that doesn't match what everyone else did, hence the amd64+mac images.
<persia> The i386 images either don't support the Intel macs *OR* do something special to get into some "compatibility mode".  I forget which, but suspect the former.
<astraljava> Thanks for the correction, persia!
#ubuntustudio-devel 2011-07-15
<holstein> ScottL: sorry im out
<holstein> i'll help with that FW device when i can though
<holstein> we can make an appointment if needed
<ScottL> holstein, i don't think it's a rush :)   i pointed them at the FFADO website, we might not need to intervene at all
<scott-work> bassburner:  your name is andrew, correct?
<falktx> scott-work: i need to talk to you, do you have some time?
<scott-work> falktx: sure
#ubuntustudio-devel 2011-07-16
<ScottL> holstein, you around?
<holstein> ScottL: pong
<ScottL> holstein, got a second to talk?
<ScottL> probably a minute or two, actually
<holstein> sure
<ScottL> persia, i'm working on packaging the -lowlatency kernel, it's going to take me a bit longer than expected
<ScottL> for example, the control file is much larger than i expected
<ScottL> however, if i do not leave town for a funeral this weekend, i hope to have something for you to check within two days
<persia> ScottL, As ever, no particular rush, except that as the cycle proceeds, it gets harder to get NEW :)
#ubuntustudio-devel 2011-07-17
<scott-kernel> persia, i'm having the following lintian error but i am unsure how serious it is given the context
<scott-kernel> section-area-mismatch
<scott-kernel> i believe this kernel is going into the universe repository
<persia> The package shouldn't know which component it will end up in.
<scott-kernel> but doesn't the control file dictate this?  in Section:
<scott-kernel> if i leave Section: as devel or admin it builds without errors
<persia> Ah, right.  You have "universe/foo" in Section:.  It should be "foo".
<persia> No, it's dictated by the archive overrides.
<scott-kernel> right, but here's the weird part...the kernel builds with universe/devel giving errors and devel not giving errors
<scott-kernel> meta is the inverse, where universe/devel doesn't give errors and devel does :/
<scott-kernel> ah, "builds" = debuild -S -sa
<persia> No control file should ever specify the component.
<persia> What errors do you get from the meta?
<scott-kernel> sorry, phone call from father
<scott-kernel> but i'm back and getting error
<scott-kernel> E: linux-meta-lowlatency source: section-area-mismatch Package linux-headers-lowlatency
<scott-kernel> E: linux-meta-lowlatency source: section-area-mismatch Package linux-image-lowlatency
<scott-kernel> E: linux-meta-lowlatency source: section-area-mismatch Package linux-lowlatency
<scott-kernel> E: linux-meta-lowlatency source: section-area-mismatch Package linux-headers-lowlatency-pae
<scott-kernel> E: linux-meta-lowlatency source: section-area-mismatch Package linux-image-lowlatency-pae
<scott-kernel> E: linux-meta-lowlatency source: section-area-mismatch Package linux-lowlatency-pae
<scott-kernel> W: linux-meta-lowlatency source: native-package-with-dash-version
<scott-kernel> i'm guessing the last warning isn't a show stopper and have decided to ignore it for the moment as i can't find a way to fix it
<scott-kernel> persia, hmmm, i just noticed part of the problem now, it seems that the control file is being built and the packages that are added are being assigned as Section: universe/devel which the package defined in the control.stub is Section: devel
<persia> hah!  You found the culprit.
<scott-kernel> i presume that i need to look in the rules file then
<persia> grep -rin the source for "universe/devel" and change that to "devel" and the error should go away.
<persia> I don't believe it's in the rules file, but yeah, if you want to *understand* why it's "universe/devel", the rules file is a good place to start.
<scott-kernel> i forget (and tired after six hours of driving today), are the quotes necessary for grep
<persia> No, except when you have something you need to quote.
<persia> To put that differently, some strings are interpreted by the shell before grep even sees them
<persia> So, for example, `grep \\ myfile` and `grep '\' myfile` are the same.
<scott-kernel> grep -rin universe/devel
<scott-kernel> is that correct? because it seems to be hanging up
<persia> Neither really does what you want, because grep then also parses the string.  So to really search for literal '\', you need \\\\ or '\\'.
<persia> `grep -rin universe/devel .`
<persia> It's waiting for you to give it input, since you didn't specify a location for it to search.
<persia> Ctrl-D will tell it you're done giving it input, and it will exit.
<persia> The final '.' in my command is the location (current directory)
<scott-kernel> okay, found it
<scott-kernel> oh, was i correct to ignore the 'native-package-with-dash-version' warning?
<persia> Yeah, go ahead and ignore that.
<persia> There's reasons it needs the dash, and if I remember correctly, reasons it needs to be native.
<ScottL> persia, https://launchpad.net/~slavender/+archive/broken
<ScottL> linux-lowlatency should be fine because i had already removed the universe/* and the only warning or error was the native-package-dash warning
<ScottL> linux-meta is uploading again, ppa1 was wrong but ppa2 (uploading still) will be correct (again, less the native-package-dash warning)
<ScottL> i'm super tired and going to bed
<persia> I'm grabbing ~ppa2 for the meta?
<ScottL> persia, aye
<persia> OK.  I have linux-lowlatency_3.0.0-5.6~ppa1.dsc and linux-meta-lowlatency_3.0.0-5.6~ppa2.dsc
<persia> Would you prefer me to review, fix, and upload or review, complain, wait for you?
<ScottL> yes, that should be correct
<ScottL> be gentle, i expect you to point out lots and lots 'o stuff that i'll need to fix :P
<persia> So, which way do you want it?
<persia> I can complain a bundle, and you can go fix it.
<persia> Or I can upload the package, fixing along the way, and you can see what I changed (and I'll be happy to explain each change)
<persia> But do tell me which you want, as it affects when I can do things.
<persia> Note that I'm not doing anything too soon, as I'm supposed to leave for a concert in the next (short) while.
<ScottL> persia, i suppose it would be easier for you to fix it, however, i expect that it would be a better educational experience if i fixed it
<ScottL> so, i think you probably should complain a bundle and let me fix it
<ScottL> and i do feel responsible for it
<ScottL> ailo_, ping
<ScottL> oh, i see the linux-meta didn't build in my ppa either :(
<persia> ScottL, Sounds like a plan.  I'll dig into it, and give you a list.
<ScottL> persia, did i disappoint you?
<persia> No.
<persia> I haven't looked at it yet, because I've been away from my computer, and I'm not looking at it now because I'm just checking backscroll before sleeping.
<persia> I don't really care which way you'd prefer to deal with the package: the key is that it is the way you believe you learn best.
<persia> Some folk prefer to have their problems identified, with suggested ways to find solutions.  Other folk prefer to have solutions demonstrated, with explanations.
<persia> As far as I can tell the choice between the two seems to be completely independent of most demographic variables.  I have a suspicion that it's a combination of what their caretakers did when they were three and how they felt about their caretakers.
<persia> (but this could be completely wrong)
#ubuntustudio-devel 2012-07-09
<ailo> status.ubuntu.com for US looks really bad :(. That will change soon though
<scott-work> ailo: many times it is because we haven't updated a blueprint
<scott-work> i.e. to say "DONE" or "INPROGRESS"
<ailo> scott-work: May be. But I also think we have a lot in progress right now that will end up being done, just a bit later
<scott-work> ailo: i found that many times last cycle that i would say "crap!  we're soooo behind the curve (or straight line)" and then update the blueprints and BAM, we were actually ahead of schedule :)
<scott-work> i think the "status by asignee" is also a very telling section
<ailo> I feel pretty confident about the current situation, but it'll get a little crazy for a while, I would think
<scott-work> hehehe, it seems to, i guess getting more done earlier is better
<len-dt> ailo, I am not sure what I will work on... so when I start it is inprogress.
<len-dt> ailo, the comments I have got on application changes (2 of them) have been all positive. I will change the seeds next.
<ailo> len-dt: Yeah, I will have to lay low for another couple of weeks, as promised, and then see how best I can make those blueprints get done in best order
<ailo> Feel like I'm building Noahs Arc
<ailo> Been sort of working on the same thing now for almost 3 years
<ailo> And this summer it just has to get applicable enough for live use
<len-dt> ailo, I'll keep pecking away at things.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2012-07-10
<ailo> Seems like Fedora people are working on a PA/jack app
<scott-work> ailo: do you have a link?
<ailo> scott-work: No, someone just mentioned it on opensourcemusicians
<ailo> They are also packaging falktx app, Cadence
<scott-work> that's cool :)  i'm happy for him
<ailo> I should probably extend the documentation for the sound system on Ubuntu. Since I use so little of it myself, makes me not realize some things
<ailo> Didn't realize alsa works fine for many apps
<len-dt> ailo, so long as something else isn't using it at the same time.
<ailo> Not unlike jack, not that long ago
<len-dt> Jack still blocks the alsa port it uses.
<len-dt> PA is different. It doesn;t block, but gets blocked if you use the port it is using.
<ailo> len-dt: jack has code in it that does that these days, suspending PA, if you set it to use the same device
<ailo> Wasn't like that before
<ailo> If you started jack when PA had that device, jack would not start
<ailo> Also, the other way around
<len-dt> I see. 
<len-dt> In any case there is a lot of confusion around jack, pulse alsa
<ailo> Problem with alsa is that there's very little visible from guis
<ailo> So, you need to know what's under the hood to get alsa
<ailo> I mean, even from a laymans perspective
<len-dt> The problem with alsa from desktop POV is that only one app can use it at a time. So if system sounds grabs it nothting else can.
<ailo> Would make sense to have alsa tools just as we hace jack, and PA tools
<len-dt> Pulse and jack mix more than one input.
<len-dt> The alsa tools are there... just not GUI.
<ailo> alsa wasn't like that before, I mean as a desktop sound system. But I don't really understand what is a alsa desktop sounds system
<ailo> So, maybe I got something wrong now. Apps that support alsa have the alsa interface builtin, so they don't need any alsa server in between
<ailo> That is why they grab the entire card
<len-dt> Yup, that I figured out
<len-dt> That is why arts, pulse etc showed up.
<ailo> Which was the system before PA, arts?
<ailo> Debian Squeeze doesn't have PA, I think?
<len-dt> arts was kde
<ailo> Oh, right
<len-dt> There was another one gnome used.
<len-dt> (yet another one)
<ailo> So, it's always the app the chooses the audio device, when using alsa directly
<astraljava> esound?
<ailo> And no need for any other gui, except a mixer
<len-dt> Yup
<len-dt> astraljava, that sounds right
<len-dt> qas has a nice mixer
<len-dt> Actually the xfce mixer works ok for that too.
<ailo> The last I looked at it, it looked fine
<ailo> The docs just need more clarification on using Alsa with applications
<ailo> More clarification in general
<len-dt> ailo, just a thought. We were talking about setting PA not to start with the session. The only problem is that if the user selects sound settings from the tray icon, pavucontrol starts pulse anyway...
<ailo> len-dt: Why would we want to disable pulse?
<len-dt> There seem to be a whole lot of people asking how to get rid of PA
<ailo> Ah, you mean how to it properly, after an install
<len-dt> I was thinking of a conversation with a user we had a day or two ago.
<ailo> Never tried to do that much myself
<ailo> I figure, if someone really doesn't need multi application desktop audio, then maybe there would be a point to get rid of PA completely
<len-dt> PA doesn't cause problems that I can see. The bridging can if PA/alsa is not set up right
<len-dt> Once I have PA/alsa set up right, even bridging doesn't seem to have any impact
<ailo> pasuspender does suspend PA, but once you try to start a web browser with flash, the flash audio plugin part gets stuck
<len-dt> ailo, another topic... Scott has mentioned adding various apps in the bluprint... should we jsut add them?
<len-dt> As it should
<ailo> len-dt: Why not. We should not add the apps to the seeds without asking on the list, I guess
<ailo> PA doesn't interrupt alsa AFAICS, when pasuspender is used
<len-dt> if you are recording a vocal to tape the studio speakes should be off too, so with flash... it is still flick the right switch.
<ailo> I think pasuspender is a nice short term solution
<len-dt> Recording audio with a computer still requires some intelligence, just as recording to tape.
<ailo> The Fedora audio people are probably going to create a gui with a start/stop for PA
<ailo> I agree. 
<ailo> But it depends a bit on what you are doing
<ailo> If you do multi channel studio recording, you need to know a lot of things
<ailo> Can't just expect the tools to do things for you
<len-dt> yes. A clear display of what is on and off would be nice.
<len-dt> A switch panel
<ailo> We could add that to controls. We just need to find a good way to shut off PA, and keep it shut off
<len-dt> pasuspender will do that. Just tie it to a script that does wait forever.
<ailo> There may be some problems still
<len-dt> Kill the script when it should restart.
<ailo> Actually, when I come to think about it, starting PA apps may cause xruns for jack, when using the same card, even if PA us suspended. Would need some testing
<holstein> does this need tested in 12.10?
<holstein> can we use 12.04 to test?
 * holstein still running 10.04 ;)
<holstein> i have a normal ubuntu 12.04 install, but i rarely use it
<ailo> holstein: 12.04 should be fine
<ailo> Doesn't seem like much has changed yet. Same jack version
<frewsxcv> Anyone know a good software synthesizer for Linux?
<len-dt> Most of the changes in 12.10 are xfce from .8 to .10
<holstein> i need to go back to a testing partition on a seperate hard drive
<ailo> frewsxcv: You could ask on #ubuntustudio or perhaps #opensourcemusicians, would be more appropriate
<holstein> frewsxcv: zynadd, yoshimi... some soundfont player that plays whatever samples you want... linux sampler
<holstein> xsynth, whysynth
<frewsxcv> ailo: Yeah good call
<holstein> i would try and catch [lsd] in #opensourcemusicians.. he's my go to MIDI guy
<holstein> http://wootangent.net/category/music/tutorials/
<holstein> ^^ thats from [lsd]'s site
<ailo> Hey, that's a good site
<ailo> I'll add it to our community wiki
<holstein> yup.. he's quite the guru
<len-dt> :) I was waiting for that...
<frewsxcv> I remember the early days of this channel
<frewsxcv> We'd have Tremulous tournaments
<holstein> i had some nice tremulous battles over the holidays this past year.. with my family
<frewsxcv> Does cory kantos still stop by?
<astraljava> Kontros*, and no I don't think so. Haven't seen his nick in years, probably.
<astraljava> All the oldies are gone; joejaxx, and the other founder... But that one gentleman from France just stopped by the other month.
<astraljava> Come to think of it, Dan isn't here either, anymore.
<astraljava> So it's probably Luke who's the senior in rank now. :)
<astraljava> ttoine is the nick I was thinking of.
<ailo> Apparently for me, jack did not suspend PA anymore
<ailo> Only works if no app is using PA
#ubuntustudio-devel 2012-07-11
<frewsxcv> astraljava: Do you remember the packager from England who used to be a part of the team?
<frewsxcv> He must have been lik 15 at the time
<frewsxcv> ]/buffer #opensourcemusicians 
 * frewsxcv fails
<astraljava> frewsxcv: Yeah, Toby. Haven't seen him around either.
<len-dt> ailo, interesting, Scott wanted to try out kdenlive this cycle. Its in the bluprints.
<ailo> len-dt: Seems like it's a much preferred application
<len-dt> Scott was wanting to switch it with something, but I would install both for seeing which is better. It should be added to our "supported" apps anyway.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2012-07-12
<len-dt> ailo, http://lists.linuxaudio.org/pipermail/linux-audio-user/2012-July/085677.html this looks promising.
<len-dt> If jack/alsa can see all the input tracks on the R16 or R24, that would add to the list of USB units that just work
<len-dt> The R8 is 2i/o but the 16/24 are 8in/2out
<len-dt> What does make me a little leery of things is the suggestion on the zoom web site that two units can be synced via USB... to within 2ms
<len-dt> I guess they are talking time code sync, not audio. Don't put stereo across the two machines.
<len-dt> Oh and the syncing is only for stand alone use.
<len-dt> My local music store doesn't have them so I can't try.
<ailo> len-dt: It's usb 1.1, so that explains it
<len-dt> 24 bit?
<ailo> The R8 doesn't require drivers as far as I can see
<ailo> I'll check the manual
<len-dt> says it requires a USB2.0 port.
<len-dt> The manual is a long downlaod
<ailo> It is
<ailo> len-dt: I found something about a driver now..
<ailo> http://www.zoom.co.jp/downloads/r8/software/
<ailo> It says it offers lower latency being ASIO
<ailo> So, maybe not actually needed for full functionality
<ailo> len-dt: I'm starting a list here, but not putting links for it anywhere yet. Would like to go through a bunch of known devices and add them first
<ailo> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuStudio/SupportedHardware/ListOfSupportedUSBDevices
<ailo> len-dt: Reading the manual. It wasy 96kHz/24 bits, but haven't got to how and when
<ailo> Also, seems like a great tool
<ailo> Has sampler builtin, and sequencing
<ailo> If you don't mind its' interface
<len-dt> ailo, seems good to use away from the computer for sure.
<ailo> But it says if you import stuff into it, it can only handle up to 48kHz
<ailo> And on Mac, no driver needed
<ailo> So, I don't know
<ailo> The trouble with jack is that you don't know if it's actually running in 24 bits
<ailo> Even if you are using that for your project on whatever software you use
<len-dt> Wed Jul 11 19:38:31 2012: ALSA: final selected sample format for capture: 32bit integer little-endian
<len-dt> This from the jack log
<ailo> There is a way to know, but I have forgotten. Thinking about implementing that to -controls.
<len-dt> That is for the d66
<ailo> len-dt: Yes, but that's not what the card is doing
<ailo> Knowing what sample rate the card is working at is what I mean
<ailo> I mean, bit rate
<len-dt> With my USB1.1 device it says 16  bit
<len-dt> I can't remember what it says with my HD internal.
<ailo> If that is so, then that would do it
<ailo> I just remember asking las about it, and he gave me a hint
<ailo> It says 32 bits for me too, but my card only supports 24 bits, and I don't think there is still a device that supports more
<len-dt> I wonder if L&M would rent me their R24... (I can't aford to buy one.)
<ailo> I could probably try a lot of devices here.
<ailo> Just need to prepare something, so I can store the results
<ailo> And get my finger out of my ..
<ailo> There are plenty of shops around
<len-dt> It may be that alsa uses 32 bit for anything bigger than 16
<ailo> I think so
<len-dt> I think Ardour uses 32bit internal too no matter what the input is.
<len-dt> floating point?
<ailo> Yes
<ailo> Usually you can choose between 16, 24 and 32
<ailo> But when you set the device, it's either 16 or 24
<len-dt> It is interesting:â¢	 USB hubs are not supported.
<len-dt> â¢	 IntelÂ® chipsets recommended.
<len-dt> I wonder if they are talking about the USB chip set
<len-dt> just to confirm:
<len-dt> Wed Jul 11 20:08:51 2012: ALSA: final selected sample format for capture: 16bit little-endian
<len-dt> ailo, That is my USB1.1 device
<ailo> Cool
<len-dt> My old ensoniq is the same.
<ailo> I'm really getting too little done right now. I was hoping to finish this puredata project (or at least wrap the major part up) within this week, but it just keeps draggin on
<ailo> The problem is, I can't find the peace of mind to do anything else until it's done
<ailo> But it doesn't help trying too hard either
<len-dt> ailo, the heat is getting to me, I end up coming home and sleeping.
<ailo> Just has the opposite effect
<ailo> Well, no need to worry too much. Just try to relax and have a bit of fun
<ailo> I would probably share the project with other people, but I don't think I will be able to get even one other person to help on it, or not very easily
<ailo> len-dt: Have some lime drink. I usually like that on a hot day
<ailo> Think I'm going for a run soon. bbl
<len-dt> ailo, I'm ok now, it is just after a 3 hour fast walk with weight, I'm done for a bit
<ailo> I can imagine that will make you hot :)
<len-dt> I look for sprinklers
#ubuntustudio-devel 2012-07-14
<len-dt> ailo, astraljava knome  whoever. Please have a look at: http://www.ovenwerks.net/UStudiodocs/menu.html
<len-dt> refresh it if you have looked at it before. I have also posted this on the list, so feel free to answer there too.
<len-dt> this is from the bluprint (workflows) "try setting software center up to only show one workflow worth of software at a time"
<len-dt> a further comment, I don't know if it matters, but I suppose it would be nice if the Software Centre window was a bit smaller.
<len-dt> The standard X command line things should fix this, but it would reduce the space for adding to the software list.
<len-dt> micahg, when you get to releasing ubuntustudio-look and ubuntustudio-default-settings, it looks like the ubuntustudio-desktop meta needs to be rerolled as well.
<len-dt> the -settings package is most important as it is mostly fixes that apply to both 12.04 and 12.10. The next stuff will be 12.10 only. So I would like to get the 12.04 fixes done and tested.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2012-07-15
<len-dt> ailo, can you try something for me? I can save profiles with envy24control but not with mudita24.
<len-dt> if you are running US12.04 envy24control has to be run from the command line.
<ailo> len-dt: I'm on Wheezy, but should be the same version?
<ailo> 1.0.3+svn13-4
<len-dt> I think so. That was the one we tried before getting it put in ubuntu
<len-dt> this says 1.0.4 0
<ailo> len-dt: Cannot open profiles file '~/.envy24control/profiles.conf' ...
<ailo> Use current settings.
<ailo> You can store this settings to profile no. 1 in file '~/.envy24control/profiles.conf' by pressing save button.
<ailo> Inhalt : test
<ailo> Going to install envy24control to have a look. I'd think after creating the file, it should be usable
<ailo> So, worked fine in envy24control
<ailo> len-dt: Mudita tries to open .envy24control/profiles.conf, while envy24control saves in the non-hidden envy24control/profiles.conf
<ailo> And, of course Mudita should be able to create the file itself
<len-dt> Ok, two different files... but mudita24 doesn't save...(not religious?)
<ailo> Changing the source should not be too hard, at least for changing the path where to look for the config
<ailo> And then maybe adding the code that creates the dir
<len-dt> So if I create the directory it should work... probably it creates the old directory but saves to the new.
<len-dt> It may just be a typo. forgot the .
<ailo> Let me try again, removed the dir now
<ailo> len-dt: hmm, there is a hidden dir there
<ailo> But no config in it
<ailo> Going to delete that dir too
<ailo> len-dt: Saving with mudita24 creates the dir, but not the file
<ailo> len-dt: even after manually creating profiles.conf, mudita24 does not touch the file
<ailo> Also, it won't read from the other, non-hidden dir either
<len-dt> Ya, that is what I thought..
<len-dt> when mudita24 is run from the terminal it says Cannot open profiles file '~/.envy24control/profiles.conf'
<ailo> len-dt: Er, just to be clear. mudita24 creates the hidden dir,  but no file
<len-dt> if I try to save a profile, it says: Cannot find file '/home/len/.envy24control/profiles.conf'.
<len-dt> This operation will create a new profiles file '/home/len/.envy24control/profiles.conf'.
<len-dt> Cannot find program '0'.
<len-dt> You must specify path for '0'.
<len-dt> Cannot store profile '1' for card '0'.
<len-dt> Obviously it does not create the file or save anything there.
<ailo> len-dt: It can read a config file, if I copy the one made by envy24control
<ailo> It will still not add anything to it, if I try saving new profiles
<ailo> So, the problem is clearly only when writing, not reading
<len-dt> Good.
<ailo> len-dt: Actually, no. The profile name is read, but the settings don't change when I select it
<len-dt> Oh :(
<len-dt> But envy24control does work ... at least for me.
<ailo> For me also
<len-dt> I don't think this is a ubuntu version problem but upstream.
<len-dt> It is mentioned on The LAU list. and the name given is envy24control not mudita. So it may be another distro has packaged it as envy24control.
<ailo> It's the Debian version, I would assume
<ailo> I'll make a Debian bug for it, and see about fixing it
<ailo> I'm trying to get into the Multimedia team eventually, and fixing bugs is a good place to start
<len-dt> ailo,  what did you think about the link above? (http://www.ovenwerks.net/UStudiodocs/menu.html)
<ailo> len-dt: I like the idea of being able to install multimedia specific software
<len-dt> I need a list of what software to have installable from which menu.
<ailo> I wonder what things do, and do not appear in Software Center
<len-dt> It is configurable if I could only figure out how :P
<ailo> Most applications should, but not things like plugins or proprietary codecs, etc
<len-dt> I should be able to point out the PPA even... but I couldn't get it to work.
<len-dt> Anyway, I am willing to make up the *.desktop files if I have a list of what things should be installable in each category
<len-dt> ailo, I have been trying it out from a terminal to try out command lines. It sure puts out a lot of errors. I think the software center is a work in progress
<micahg> len-dt: ok, I'm piloting monday, will take a look then
<len-dt> great! Thanks.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2013-07-08
<OvenWerks> holstein: ZFS looks pretty good. I think in a higher class production facility where a number of disks are used in a machine, disk read/write speeds could be improved as well as the data protection benefits.
<OvenWerks> Fuse zfs would not help though.
<OvenWerks> interesting how open sw licences can conflict.
<zequence_> alright, vacation!
<zequence> I have a few things to take care of today, but I'll have about 3 weeks to spend at my will, so hopefully I can help forward the development progress somewhat during that time
<smartboyhw> DarkEra, hello! zequence is now on holiday:p
<smartboyhw> So he can spend more time with us:)
<DarkEra> smartboyhw, hi
<DarkEra> smartboyhw, well, for now my time is over, my laptop died
<smartboyhw> DarkEra, :O
<DarkEra> all i have at the moment is this old crappy netbook
<smartboyhw> zequence, DarkEra I will be leaving for London on Wednesday, will not stay in computer till 31st July.
<smartboyhw> STUDY TOURE
<DarkEra> ok :)
<DarkEra> see you later, gotta go
<zequence> smartboyhw: Sounds like a fun trip
<smartboyhw> zequence, heh
<zequence> OvenWerks: I was investigating options on how to override stuff from other DEs, and finally, decided to see just how much would work from installing xubuntu-desktop and ubuntustudio-default-settings, logging in with the Ubuntu Studio session
<zequence> Haven't looked so much at the details yet, but pretty much everything worked, except for the icons
<zequence> I'm kind of leaning towards dropping our desktop completely from the seeds, and just depending on Xubuntu
<zequence> I think if we can "blacklist" some dependencies, we could fine tune that a little
<zequence> if needed
<zequence> OvenWerks: Since you're turning the menu into its own package, we might just as well do it that way
<zequence> ah, well. that's not really a factor come to think of it. 
<zequence> but, for some DEs, maybe all we need is the DE and some extras, like the menu package, linux-lowlatency, etc
<zequence> then there's the question, do we override artwork at all? At the very least, one might want to change a menu icon and the wallpaper
<zequence> ..this is for any non-default DEs
<OvenWerks> zequence: there are a few things we may need to watch for to do that. In the same way we have set the libav-extra libs to get loaded first there is at least one other package we load in the desktop seeds that needs to be there. (the one I added when our ISO would not build, I would have to look it up)
<OvenWerks> xubuntu has fixed their menu file now so ours should just work over top. If we add our settings, it would override that anyway.
<OvenWerks> zequence: would we name the sessions ubuntustudio-kde -gnome -unity? would xfce be just ubuntustudio? or would it be ubuntustudio-xfce?
<OvenWerks> I am not asking becasue it matters what, but so that we take it into concideration.
<OvenWerks> I think our icon-theme will work with whatever. I think it should be possible to have our backdrops all in one place and still have the different DEs use them. They do need to be in /usr/share/whatever/ though so that they can be used for lightdm also.
<OvenWerks> I would like to see all of our settings for all DEs in one package. At boot time it should be easy enough to set up an upstart config that looks to see which DEs are there and creates a link (or kills one) to a presetup session for that DE.
<OvenWerks> that way There would be no ghost sessions (sessions the user can see listed but don't work).
<OvenWerks> it would also give us the oportunity to remove a plain DE session. For example, if KDE is installed, there would be a KDE session with KDE defaults. We would want to replace that with a ubuntustudio-kde session with our defaults. It would be the same for xfce, gnome, lubuntu or whatever.
<OvenWerks> Looking at our current install in /usr/share/xsessions/ there are two desktop files one for ubuntustudio and one for xfce. Removing the one for xfce would leave us with just the one session and not confuse people. I am not sure of the correct way of doing that though. Just removing that might mean it is just replaced on any xfce update or that xfce never gets updated.
<OvenWerks> I have had this problem with my kernel on my server becasue I have set it up to use a serial device as console by editing a config file the system holds them back untill I force the new ones to instal. an apt-get upgrade won't touch them.
<zequence> OvenWerks: I'll experiment with that tomorrow. On icons, they weren't loaded by default - on a clean (yet unpopulated) user home
<zequence> this was when installing: xubuntu-desktop and ubuntustudio-default-settings
<zequence> bb tomorrow
<OvenWerks> zequence: ubuntustudio-icon-theme has to be installed too.
<OvenWerks> I am not sure that settings depends on it... it should
#ubuntustudio-devel 2013-07-09
<OvenWerks> zequence: I just checked, setting does not depend on -icon-theme. I think it should. I can fix, but would like to make sure you don't disagree :)
<smartboyhw> OvenWerks, +1
<OvenWerks> g'morning
<smartboyhw> OvenWerks, good morning
<OvenWerks> zequence wrote to me while I was working, now he is sleeping :)
<smartboyhw> OvenWerks, LOL
<zequence> OvenWerks: No, it's fine that it doesn't depend on it
<zequence> OvenWerks: We just need to add that as a dependency if we minimize our desktop meta to depend on xubuntu-desktop ubuntustudio-default-settings
<zequence> ..and ubuntustudio-menu (once it's available)
<smartboyhw> zequence, so, since you made the kernel maintenance page available, can I try Bug 1199252?;P
<ubottu> bug 1199252 in Kernel SRU Workflow "linux-lowlatency: <version to be filled> -proposed tracker" [Medium,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1199252
<zequence> smartboyhw: no, sorry. It requires for you to have a signed gpg key, which UKT can accept
<smartboyhw> zequence, heh meh
<zequence> kernels are a little different from other packages :P
<smartboyhw> zequence, wait, UKT or CKT?
<zequence> Ubuntu Kernel Team
<zequence> ah, yeah
<zequence> Canonical Kernel Team, or whatever
 * smartboyhw points zequence to his Launchpad page at https://launchpad.net/~smartboyhw
<smartboyhw> zequence,  in my profile page: Ubuntu Kernel Team Joined on 2013-06-18  (LOL)
<smartboyhw> Jesus, I got 8605 karma !!!
 * smartboyhw exceeds zequence in karma yay
<smartboyhw> (LOL)
<zequence> it's not a comptetition, and frankly, why are you a member of so many teams? Do you interact with all of them?
<smartboyhw> zequence, sometimes
<smartboyhw> zequence, well at least the karma I earned mainly from is good
<smartboyhw> (a.k.a. packaging)
<zequence> smartboyhw: you joined ubuntu-kernel-team manually?
<zequence> smartboyhw: that team doesn't have any special privileges, and being a member of it doesn't necessarily mean you are in a "kernel team", as a developer.
<zequence> smartboyhw: I can't let you maintain the kernel. It's a long term commitment, and it would require for me to meet you in person so I can sign your gpg key.
<zequence> you are always free to test the process in a PPA, and even do changes to the kernel, if you want to learn more about doing that
<smartboyhw> zequence, what would have happened if you started maintaining it in saucy and there's no UDS?:P
<smartboyhw> Just imagining
<zequence> smartboyhw: I would have needed to meet someone in Sweden, such as David H
<zequence> ..who works for Canonical
<smartboyhw> zequence, hell. There's a Hongkonger who works for Canonical, but he's in Beijing now;P
<zequence> I'm probably meeting a few people in Switzerland again in August
<zequence> during DebConf13
<smartboyhw> zequence, you're lucky that you can attend these things
<smartboyhw> I missed this year's KDE Akademy due to study tour
<smartboyhw> *will be missing
<zequence> smartboyhw: I'm 35, you're 15. You have time, don't worry ;)
<smartboyhw> zequence, ;) 
<smartboyhw> zequence, I got my report sheet today
<zequence> smartboyhw: is that about your school work?
<smartboyhw> zequence, yeah
<smartboyhw> Break a few self records
<smartboyhw> Rank: 6 in form (out of 187)
<smartboyhw> Conduct Grade: A (FOR THE FIRST TIME)
<smartboyhw> And I got a generally improvement award (LOL)
<smartboyhw> And I got a subject prize for the second term in Computer Literacy (that happens every year)
<smartboyhw> FIrst;P
<zequence> that's good. you have a good brain for school
<smartboyhw> zequence, 6 is my career high at Secondary school
<smartboyhw> 13 -> 21 -> 36 (career low) -> 19 -> 6 -> 6 (That's why I got *general improvement* LOL)
<smartboyhw> zequence, and now due to my rank my parents don't need to pay school fees at Form 4!
<zequence> paying for school kind of sucks
<zequence> glad you're doing so well
<smartboyhw> zequence, I thought of one thing: Ubuntu contributions increases my rank!:P
<zequence> what rank?
<zequence> in school?
<zequence> It might be worth something when applying for educations or jobs later on, depending on how the people approving you value work on Ubuntu
<zequence> OvenWerks: I'm putting the menu and the icons to our development PPA
<zequence> OvenWerks: source for the icon theme?
<smartboyhw> zequence, yeah
<OvenWerks> zequence: the -icon-theme src in my PPA is now old. Mish has done more work yet.
<OvenWerks> I am surprised that settings would not depend on the icon-theme. How can you set a DE to use something (have a setting that points at) you don't depend on? 
<OvenWerks> However, so long as there is something that does depend on it (the xfce desktop does right now).
<OvenWerks> I guess that would be our desktop.
<OvenWerks> zequence: So I am guessing the idea is to have a much trimmed down desktop meta/seed that includes the xubuntu desktop?
<zequence> OvenWerks: I'm just playing with that idea right now, but if our aim is to keep in sync with Xubuntu, and it's easy enough just to do things this way, then why not
<zequence> OvenWerks: I mean like the bzr source for the icons
<zequence> you haven't done any changes to it since January something?
<zequence> OvenWerks: Never mind about the icon theme. I'm on top of it now :)
<Mish> zequence: You're on top of it?
<OvenWerks> zequence: Mish's changes are all a lot more recent than that, but I have not yet merged any of them in pending revue by art lead and Mish being finished.
<zequence> Mish: Just about which source is which. Nothing about the icons themselves
<zequence> Mish: madeinkobaia may be a bit abscent currently, and so I don't know how much feedback we will get from him. Are you in touch with him about the icons?
<Mish> in touch other than with mailing list/IRC, no
<Mish> I mean I haven't emailed him personally yet
<zequence> Mish: What is the origin of these icons? Did you create them from scratch?
<Mish> Yes from scratch
<zequence> Ok, just asking. Some images look classic enough to look like you've seen them before :)
<zequence> Mish: Would you be interested in making a colored version of them?
<Mish> Well objects depicted are iconic of that particular thing
<Mish> Like Headphones for audio, shutters for photography, paintbrush for graphics etc
<zequence> Yes, and I think it's a good thing that you can easily identify them.
<zequence> If adding colors, one idea I could bring to the table is using one color for each
<Mish> About coloured version, yes I can work on them, but first I'll have to figure out how to adapt to a coloured version
<zequence> Or, having one color being the main color of each, if you know what I mean
<Mish> I mean when I initally made them, all I had in my mind was a classic monochrome scheme
<Mish> Yes I understand
<zequence> Sort of like the different slides you see on our website. Each workflow has a different color
<zequence> When you see them all together, you'll easily be able to identify which is audio, video, graphics, just by the color
<Mish> Yes that'd be good
<zequence> And it might be interesting to think about which colors go best with which workflow too
<Mish> um where exactly on the website do we have those colours? When yous said slide show, I thought you were talking about the feature tour 
<zequence> The slides on our website could be an inspiration perhaps, but they are not well thought out. I did some of them myself, which you can spot by noticing the bad quality of some of them :) (I used gimp to alter the color of the first slide)
<Mish> because then we could match those colours, to make it consistent
<zequence> They are on the home page. It's the slides where the first one says "Welcome to Ubuntu Studio "
<Mish> Ah ok understood
<zequence> They aren't consistent. Both audio and video are blue
<zequence> Photography is quite red, and publishing green
<Mish> That actually looks reallly good
<Mish> I never paid attention before XD
<Mish> but then I don't visit the site very often
<Mish> yes photography red is a bit strong but otherwise it's great
<Mish> and I like the green one, but may be a little biased
<zequence> The quality is more in how the color is contrasted. If you compare with the first slide, you'll notice a very different quality in contrast
<zequence> This is because the first one is probably made in Inkscape originally, and the red and green I did in Gimp, using the png image
<zequence> You can clearly see lines between lighter green and darker green, for example
<Mish> Which is not a bad thing :D
<zequence> Well, if I had done the green and red with inkskape, using the original project, the contrast would have been smooth
<zequence> no lines
<Mish> banding gradients are used aesthetically in lots of places
<zequence> I could imagine audio being red, like the record button. Also, publishing could be green. There's a bit of room to play around with these colors I think. 
<Mish> and you can produce smooth gradients in GIMP as well :D
<zequence> I mean, publishing could be yellow (like paper or something)
<zequence> Just an idea, about the colors. But I think it would be good both aesthetically, as well as functionally
<Mish> Once we do decide on a colour for each of the five menus, do the submenus in audio have to have something as well?
<Mish> And by coloured version do you mean icons maintaining the flat look but having a colour scheme different than plain B?W, or do you mean traditional icons with shading?
<zequence> Sure. And I don't think you can create a perfect logic for the colors so easily. I think it's enough if some are somehow logical, and the others just fill out the other possible colors
<zequence> Mish: I think it's hard to say about flat vs shaded. If the icons stand out very much (which they will if the icon theme is very different anyway), that may just enhance the experience of those belonging to Ubuntu Studio, and that doesn't need to be a bad thing
<OvenWerks> +1
<zequence> by icon theme, I mean the icon theme chosen by the user, whether it is default or not
<zequence> but I think I prefer colored over black and white. That's my position at this time anyway
<OvenWerks> But two colour (black and colour or white and colour) is still a similar style.
<Mish> zequence : So flat icons with different colours?
<OvenWerks> I was thinking colour with clear, but depending on the BG the Icon could vanish.
<OvenWerks> Have you seen the libreoffice icons?
<zequence> Mish: If that is what you'd prefer, I'm willing to see how that works. I can't really tell until I see the result :)
<Mish> OverWerks: The ACYL icon theme has a python script to change the colour of the icons to prevent that thing, and I don't know but other icons sets might also using such scripts
<Mish> zequence: Alright, I'll prepare some test icons and then post them on the mailing list 
<OvenWerks> zequence: I would also like to incorperate these icons into the menu package. They would end up in hicolor in case the user chose another icon theme besides ubuntustudio.
<OvenWerks> They do not have to be the saem as our icon theme, but nicer than mine would still be nice.
<zequence> OvenWerks: Yes, I was under the impression that these icons were specific for the menu, so I suppose that would make sense. Since the ubuntustudio-menu is not a standard one, either the icons need to be fetched from existing standards, or custom made
<zequence> and my understanding is that we're working towards custom icons for the custom Ubuntu Studio menu entries
<zequence> OvenWerks: the menu is now auto built to this PPA each day https://launchpad.net/~ubuntustudio-dev/+archive/devel
<zequence> I added a recipe for it earlier today
<OvenWerks> zequence: Ok, when we have a better idea what ones we will use I will drop them in.
<zequence> OvenWerks: I'm behind you on adding icons to it right now, so whenever you want to. We'll wait with uploading until we feel it's ready for public testing, and then of course, we have until feature freeze to decide on the details
<OvenWerks> zequence: the menu package already has icons in it. But they are mostly my old artwork.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2013-07-10
<holstein> OvenWerks: i think i was about to react negatively to the removal of pulse
<OvenWerks> holstein: Lumpy's machine is one use only. I am surprised that he couldn't get it working. He is right towards thge edge of what the machine can do. Pulling two mp3 files to audio streams then recoding to mp3 stream. Also some compression in there too. medium latency (50ms or so).
<OvenWerks> No reason to have pulse on it though, but rather than remove it I would just turn it off.
<zequence> Was supposed to get some stuff done, but been baby sitting the past two days :P
<zequence> maybe tomorrow
<Lump|AFK> yeah OvenWerks I am stumped
<Lump|AFK> though i think the icecast server connection issues are router related
<Lump|AFK> i shot you an email this AM
<Lump|AFK> i will be hereish today so hail away
<smartboyhw> zequence: OvenWerks I will be back after three weeks. See ya!
<ttoine> hello
<Mish> hello ttoine
<Mish> zequence: I did some tests on the Audio icon. You can see them here  ---   https://www.wuala.com/Mishrito/Icons?key=CRBaTkk2DEln
<Mish> I don't know why one can;t download the whole folder at once but that;s the way it works
<Mish> There's two of the 3d shaded icons
<Mish> and one flat one, which is basically identical to the old one except for the blue-pale yellow colour scheme
<Mish> is that similar to what you had in mind for using the colours?
<zequence> Mish: quite dark, but I'd really need to see all of them used with the menu to get a good idea
<zequence> thought you weren't going to do shaded
<Mish> you were undecided last time I asked, so I did tell you I'd do some tests; with both shaded and flat
<Mish> is the flat one somewhat like what you had in mind?
<Mish> oh and for the shaded version, there's one for light themes and one for dark
<zequence> will we be able to switch them? my understanding so far is that these will be custom icons, not a part of any icon theme
<Mish> IMO it'd actually be better if there were two icons sets, something like UbuntuStudio-Light and UbuntuStudio-Dark
<zequence> my understanding is that these icons will be for the menu specifically, and not go with any specific icon theme, since they are custom
<Mish> yes but the manu background is affected by whatever theme the user chooses :D
<zequence> so, if the icons aren't apart of a theme, that means they won't be switched when you change themes
<Mish> icons never change automatically when themes are changed
<zequence> and that would also mean the icons need to be generic enough to work in any situatioon
<zequence> I'm talking about icon themes
<Mish> yes
<Mish> Theming in linux happens independently for all the different things
<zequence> are you seriously explaining how theming works in Linux to me?
<Mish> as in you have themes for Window manager, GTK/QT theme, icon set, and cursor theme
<Mish> no not explaining 
<Mish> pointing out a specific thing
<Mish> but basically only dark and light themes need to be catered for
<zequence> I'm still missing the part where the icons are switchable with icon themes. Or, how the switching of the icons would be done
<zequence> they need to work with other themes than just ubuntustudio icon themes
<Mish> user would go to appearance settings and then change icon theme
<Mish> but that wouldn't change gtk/qt theme etc
<zequence> so, are you saying these icons will, or will not be a part of an icon theme?
<zequence> I'm still only talking about icons and icon themes
<Mish> they will be a part of a theme
<zequence> ...and not the menu package
<Mish> if it's part of the menu package then it'll become default
<zequence> again, my understanding is that these icons would be a part of the menu package, and not any specific icon theme. Is this correct, or not?
<Mish> so that if user changes to a different set the menu icons won't be broken
<Mish> come to think of it, yes
<Mish> sorry my mistake
<Mish> usually icons would be part of a specific icon set, but in this case there has to be a default so it'll go into the menu
<zequence> I haven't looked into how exactly the icons are loaded, or what the intention is for the future. So I could be missing something of course
<Mish> no sorry my mistake
<Mish> I was all jumbled up 
<Mish> zequence: what about the flat one?
<zequence> Mish: White background?
<Mish> As in should the icon go with a white background?
<zequence> I still feel pretty much the same as yesterday, that it would be nice if each workflow was easily identifyable by color. 
<Mish> in the folder that I linked to there's the flat icon which is basically the same as the old one, except the background is blue and the object is pale yellow.....is that similar to what you had in mind?
<zequence> Mish: I was invisioning really clear colors. Something that would work with any icon theme.
<zequence> I thought that icon was a bit too dark for one to be able to see the color
<Mish> ok got it....so colour needs to be lighter.... and would you like to see alternate designs? may be with  gradients, transparencies etc?
<Mish> or is that design ok?
<zequence> I would try without shading first. I have a feeling it will have too much of its own thematic feel
<zequence> Mish: You know, actually it might not be a bad idea to use the classic Ubuntu Studio blue for audio
<zequence> and then go from there, making the other colors look similar
<Mish> ok understood
<zequence> I think there are lots of icons that are like that, very minimal, like traffic signes
<zequence> signs*
<zequence> I'm open to other ideas myself, but this to me seems more or less water proof, and should work in any situation, no matter which icon themes, and other themes are used
<zequence> Mish: Do you have the classic blue? The color scheme is at the bottom of this page otherwise https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/Artwork/OfficialFeisty
<Mish> Yes I do have the SVG of the Ubuntu Studio logo
<Mish> I'll take the blue from there
<zequence> which logo is that?
<Mish> the first one on the page you linked to
<Mish> but the palette is handy too
<OvenWerks> zequence: there are some problems I think with what you were discussing with Mish.
<OvenWerks> You may recall, we wanted to use standard categories and names for things.
<OvenWerks> so ihave styled all the icon names after the standard icon names for other standard menus.
<OvenWerks> What this means, is that some of the icons I use (or will use when they are done) in the menu package will not show up in our menu because they are "themed over" or overriden by themes farther up the theme inheritance chain.
<OvenWerks> That is why we are using the icon-theme to make sure our icons show up in our iso.
<OvenWerks> zequence: there are two paths we can go with this:
<OvenWerks> 1) use icon themes as Mish suggested, one dark and one light that inherit other dark and light themes. Mish seems to have found nice ones.
<OvenWerks> 2) Rename our icons non-standard so they show up no matter what icon theme is used.
<OvenWerks> I am sure Mish's confusion is my falt and I appologize.
<OvenWerks> I should probably drop this in the mailing list :)
<lumpy__> heya OvenWerks thanks for the emails
<lumpy__> but i think i have only made it worse
<OvenWerks> give me a sec
<lumpy__> take your time
<lumpy__> i am finishing a writing assignment
<lumpy__> so i tied up for 20-30 minutes at least
<OvenWerks> Ok, had to do an email. I am switching to the support channel :)
#ubuntustudio-devel 2013-07-11
<zequence> OvenWerks: Standard categories is fine, but will those exist in non Ubuntu Studio icon themes?
<zequence> I mean, the ones you have used for the menu
<zequence> If these icons are meant to be used in a theme, then of course, they should go into the icon theme package
<zequence> ..as they are now
<zequence> But, the most important thing is that there will be menu icons with any theme. 
<zequence> Most, if not all icon themes inherit HiColor at the end, so it is quite possible to add a postinstall script to create symlinks to the icons in the Ubuntu Studio theme for categories if those do not already exist
<zequence> That should make sure there will be icons no matter what
<zequence> but, maybe this is not a problem to begin with?
<zequence> Let me put this on list too, btw
<holstein> interesting discussion going on in #xubuntu-devel about xMir
#ubuntustudio-devel 2013-07-12
<OvenWerks> zequence: I don't know if you saw any of it or not. Xubuntu had a meeting yesterday and the the logs would be interesting if you haven't already.
<OvenWerks> zequence: much talk about MIR, mostly about how it works (or doesn't) and how ready it is likely to be for 13.10.
<OvenWerks> zequence: Xubuntu will be deciding on XMIR/xorg mid August.
<OvenWerks> zequence: going into the future, Ubuntu has said MIR will be _the_ X that is supported.
<OvenWerks> After 13.10, Canonical intends not to support xorg. I do not know that is a problem. We use a lot of SW now that is in the Ubuntu repos, but not supported.
<OvenWerks> zequence: XFCE has no plan to ever support or write a MIR back end. There are very few devs (two?) and there is not enough time etc.
<OvenWerks> What this means is that come 14.04, when XMIR is to be replaced with MIR, Xfce's experience with MIR's X compatability will be a good indication for Studio if our SW will work with MIR or not.
<OvenWerks> It will also be a good indication if there will be performance issues of the translation layer in MIR that takes X commands and tells MIR how to render them.
<OvenWerks> I would suggest that going forward, Audio will become less of a testing priority and video/graphics/GUI will require more of our attention.
<OvenWerks> That is, we will need to spend more time testing video applications, particularely KDE based apps. (which should still work with MIR)
<OvenWerks> One question I have not even seen asked, is if there is any thought given in The MIR group to supporting/translating wayland interfaces... where the rest of the Linux community and SW are going.
<zequence> OvenWerks: My understanding is that xorg will be community supported from there on. How good/bad that is, I have no clue - and what that will do to the other flavors in the long run, but since we always have the choice to use something else, or whatever works, we won't of course be technically affected, like some of the other flavors
<zequence> We could engage in the problem, to give opinions and support to the others. We could play a role in the community.
<zequence> Me, personally, won't have the resources to add much to it. And my goal is really to understand the maintenance infrastructure better, packaging, ISO building, seeds, etc
<zequence> and how to adapt Ubuntu Studio to other flavors
<zequence> I've been thinking about the possibility to add us to other flavor installers, at least the audio workflow
<zequence> already my goal is to change from audio group to something else, and make it default on all flavors, so jack always works in realtime when installed
<zequence> some of these things just need to be organized, and the technical aspects solved, and then try push for the change
<zequence> was disconnected from the internet for about 24h, so again, not able to get much done :P
<zequence> by adding us to other flavors, I don't mean the audio applications, just the core components to make any flavor audio friendly - kernel, settings and maybe jack
<Mish> zequence: I've made some icons with colours. They are in here  ---   https://www.wuala.com/Mishrito/Icons/?key=CRBaTkk2DEln
<Mish> They are for Audio and Graphics and I took the colours from the slideshow of the UBS homepage you showed me
<Mish> There are two versions of each, one with the object and one with the corresponding letter
<Mish> But that probably wouldn't work out since I'd be stuck at photography and publishing since both start with P
<Mish> but I put it there anyways so you can see what it looks like
<Mish> Is it similar to what you had in mind?
<zequence> Mish: I thought your original icons looked quite nice, so I was just imagining those with colored backgrounds. As for the content of the image, the headphones, brush, etc, I suppose I imagined those white, just as they are originally. If you'd like suggestions for colors, I could have a moment to think about that, but otherwise, just choose which ever ones you feel is right yourself.
<zequence> That's just how I pictured it. Doesn't matter what it ends up being, as long as it works :)
<Mish> So just the old icons with coloured background?  Ok I'll do that. And I'll just take the colours from that slideshow for consistency
<zequence> Mish: Don't worry about the slideshow. Those are really random
<Mish> So can they be changed easily?
<zequence> I'd rather create a more sensible set of colors, and later adapt the slideshow to those
<zequence> We just create new artwork for that later, and also, we could use the colors for our workflows in other situations too
<zequence> like in documentation, or the feature tour
<zequence> the choice of colors might be a really interesting one, especially as it seems some colors have very different meaning in different cultures
<zequence> maybe they don't need to make sense, just look pretty, I don't know
<zequence> photo could be red, or black (like film), audio could be blue or red (like the rec button). publishing could be white as paper (but then the content would need to be black), or yellow, etc
<zequence> the classic blue is a nice blue, I think. I would start with that, and make the other colors have similar strength in color
<zequence> Mish: I used three colors for our wiki https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio
<Mish> with colours the main thing would be to make them look good in both light and dark environments. I've been pained by so many apps, mostly java apps using SWT that don't respect GTK+ apps properly and end up forcing white backgrounds despite me having a dark GTK theme, making text sometimes unreadable and graphics look ugly
<zequence> not sure if that blue is the classic one, actually, but probably close
<Mish> for that reason I tend to avoid java apps
<Mish> ok cool got it
#ubuntustudio-devel 2013-07-13
<OvenWerks> Question, in an sudo application, is it least confusiong to the user to ask for authorization before startup or only after the user is asking for an action that requires upgrading authority?
<OvenWerks> synaptic uses the first and the user managment app uses the second.
 * OvenWerks is thinking out loud
<Mish> AFAIK I've seen only synaptic do that
<Mish> I mean the package management utilities that I use like deborphan ask only when it is required
<OvenWerks> I am thinking  that the first is prefered unless there are actions that can be preformed that don't require permitions.
<Mish> but I don't know if that's better or not
<OvenWerks> This is for my studio meta installer
<OvenWerks> The only safe option is exit :)
<OvenWerks> I think it makes sense to just run the whole thing under pkexec
<OvenWerks> Asking for a password right off informs the user they are doing system changes right away
<OvenWerks> Anyway, thanks for the input. I am off to bed.
<zequence> OvenWerks: depends on what the application does. If it's strictly for administration, and nothing for non admins stuff, then the whole app could be sudo
<OvenWerks> zequence: that was what I finally figured out. In my case, the only non-admin selection is "cancel" which exits the program.
<OvenWerks> zequence: Re: getting Jack etc. RT priv. When installing our audio meta (from a GUI) right now we need the user to be in the audio group. You are working on something better. should I include an option to put the user(s) in the audio group?
<OvenWerks> next question :) do we want to allow removing metas? There are Alligators in these waters, removing the meta will not remove the applications it installed if it was installed from the ISO.
<OvenWerks> This goes farther, even if we remove all the apps listed in the meta, the packages brought in as depends will not be removed. Also, some packages in one meta are dependants of other metas...
<OvenWerks> Ok, forget that, I have talked myself out of allowing removale of metas.
<OvenWerks> question 4) should there be an option to remove the generic kernel? Or at least the upgradability?
<OvenWerks> Aside from all that, Kubuntu has set things up so that their GRUB entry actually shows "Kunubtu". I would like to use the same method in our settings package for us as well I think it is important to make sure the lowlatency kernel is always default even if a generic somehow gets installed. (via distro upgrade for example)
<OvenWerks> Hi Mish
<Mish> Hi OvenWerks
<OvenWerks> Mish: I was hoping to have at least one release of ubuntustudio-menu as is because it is such a change from the last version. (from pre xfce days)
<OvenWerks> but if all the icons are going in there we should at least start working on a mergable branch I would guess.
<Mish> What is the deadline before testing starts?
<Mish> I mean if there is one
<Mish> I don't exactly know how the process works
<OvenWerks> I am not sure, but I think we are opting in for beta 2
<OvenWerks> As I have built and tested -menu as is, it is probably safe to make changes in icons though.
<OvenWerks> Changing the names of icons, means editing all the *.directory files as well.
<Mish> yeah
<OvenWerks> I guess I should change the names first then you can branch for icon work.
<OvenWerks> I am going to eat breakfast with my wife for a bit. Back later.
<zequence> OvenWerks: the idea was that we make a -controls application to handle stuff like realtime privilege and audio group - it's a two part problem, and both need to be in place in order to get things right. But, since then, I realized it's better to solve the problem by setting a standard that exists everywhere, both Debian and Ubuntu, and in that way, we won't need to create a tool for it. Still, it might be interesting to tweak many opt
<zequence> I made a -controls app all in python/gtk in the past, where one portion of it was bash and the gui thing you are using now (I forget the name)
<zequence> so, I already did something quite similar to what you are doing now
<zequence> or, I did that partly for the -controls I did
<zequence> it didn't install workflows, but it was able to set realtime options, as well as install restricted extras
<zequence> Mish: We have the chance to make changes easily until feature freeze
<zequence> Mish: Testing is done continuously, and only after feature freeze do we do proper bug testing. The features should already be in place by then
<zequence> Feature freeze is aug 22 https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/DevelopmentReleaseSchedule
<Mish> ok cool thanks
<OvenWerks> zequence: my thought was that the time to ensure RT was at the time jack/lowlatnecy was installed.
<OvenWerks> certainly setting group should be a temporary thing that we hope see fixed "soon" (ish)
<OvenWerks> This would not be a tool for tuning or turning these things on and off. Just setting things to what an ISO install would be.
<OvenWerks> It occures to me we have two kinds of setting in our -settings pkg. DE settings and tweaks.
<OvenWerks> should they be two packages?
<OvenWerks> The reason I ask is because DE settings are part of xfce while the tweaks are part of audio really
<OvenWerks> with another DE the tweaks on their own are worthwhile, but the DE settings could be a problem.
<zequence> OvenWerks: If we need to have separate -settings packages, it would be best to separate DE specific stuff, yes
<OvenWerks> I am thinking a -tweaks package
<OvenWerks> zequence: ubuntustudio-meta-install ok for packagename/scriptname?
<zequence> I'd just call it ubuntustudio-installer
<OvenWerks> ok will do.
<zequence> or, if only installing metas, ubuntustudio-meta-installer, but the former might be handier, if adding things to it
<OvenWerks> yes There is a possibilty of using it to replace USC for our extras menu items so they are DE agnostic
<OvenWerks> zequence: So much for that.... pkexec does not to forward the stuff needed for a GUI to work. So authentication will happen for the action instead.
<OvenWerks> Good news is that all the user input stuff ends up being gui.
<zequence> OvenWerks: What's pkexec?
<OvenWerks> it is the only gui bassed sudo that seems to be in all flavours.
<zequence> I solved it by doing apt-get install commands with the -y parameter, however, it's important to do an update too of course
<zequence> ah
<zequence> why not just make gksudo a dependency?
<OvenWerks> kubuntu doesn't have gksudo
<zequence> I mean to ubuntustudio-installer
<OvenWerks> That pulls gtk libs into kubuntu
<zequence> ah
<OvenWerks> mind you I think all our metas do anyway.
<zequence> yeah, probably, but still..
<OvenWerks> but I wanted the installer to be very light weight
<zequence> Kubuntu uses pkexec for the same sort of stuff?
<OvenWerks> yes
<OvenWerks> it is part of the mini.iso image I think
<zequence> well, as long as it works, I guess
<OvenWerks> it will also work cli
<OvenWerks> there are reasonable security concerns with giving gui access to an su app.
<OvenWerks> At least on a system with many users :)
#ubuntustudio-devel 2013-07-14
<OvenWerks> zequence: Actually, if I use a little apt-cache magic, It should be possible to have The package names on the commandline and generate the menu from that. The desktop file could then determine what packages are shown.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2014-07-07
<jimbohertz> hi
<jimbohertz> i still received no answer
<jimbohertz> about
<jimbohertz> the website...
<jimbohertz> and
<jimbohertz> um...
<holstein> jimbohertz: ?
<holstein> jimbohertz: what do you need to know, friend? 
<jimbohertz> i asked zequence
<holstein> jimbohertz: ok.. he's in the channel..
<jimbohertz> information on what goes on here and
<holstein> jimbohertz: what do you need to kno?
<jimbohertz> well i dont know man i just asked if i could like redesign the website/work on it
<jimbohertz> but i got ignored
<jimbohertz> over and over
<holstein> jimbohertz: sure.. we dont need that
<jimbohertz> so should i just give up ?
<jimbohertz> ah ok
<holstein> jimbohertz: we dont need it "Redesigned"
<holstein> but, we need help
<jimbohertz> alright
<jimbohertz> hlep for testing isos
<jimbohertz> ha
<jimbohertz> yeah sure
<holstein> jimbohertz: sure. thats actually quite helpful
<jimbohertz> k
<jimbohertz> lets sing
<jimbohertz> holstein: sing
<holstein> and documentation. and there were some test cases on the mailing list about kernels. did you do that? i havent had a chance
<holstein> and about work flows...
<jimbohertz> yeah...
<jimbohertz> i just dont see how i can help
<jimbohertz> not that I have nothing to give
<jimbohertz> and
<holstein> jimbohertz: ?
<holstein> jimbohertz: did you test the kernel?
<jimbohertz> but i dont know
<jimbohertz> what kernel?
<holstein> jimbohertz: you want to help with the newsletter?
<jimbohertz> what
<holstein> that team *always* needs help
<jimbohertz> i dont follow
<holstein> jimbohertz: have you tested the kernel?
<holstein> if not.. you can do that
<jimbohertz> what kernel
<jimbohertz> beMORESPECIFIC
<holstein> if you are still saying "i dont know how to help" then, would you like information on the ubuntu newsletter team?
<holstein> jimbohertz: the realtime kernel that we discussed, here. in person.. via PPA.. from the mailing list
<jimbohertz> what
<jimbohertz> i can test it ?
<jimbohertz> wait
<jimbohertz> we did ?
<holstein> there were other test cases in the mailling list as well.. did you do any of them?
<jimbohertz> you said it was useless !
<holstein> jimbohertz: are you on the mailling list?
<jimbohertz> yes i am
<holstein> jimbohertz: i never said "useless".. i implied it was likely not that necessary for the future, and that im not personally interested in it
<holstein> jimbohertz: im literally only suggesting things for testing purposes
<holstein> jimbohertz: how about the newsletter? thats a great team that needs help
<jimbohertz> i just find the process really awkward
<holstein> jimbohertz: what process?
<jimbohertz> working with the newsletter
<holstein> its just a small team, friend
<holstein> jimbohertz: so, you are not interested in helping? with the newsletter?
<jimbohertz> well
<jimbohertz> its just not
<holstein> jimbohertz: not what?
<jimbohertz> it doesnt feel right
<jimbohertz> i dont even know how the newsletter work and
<jimbohertz> eh..
<holstein> jimbohertz: its a place to help. it works like this.. you read a story, and write a summary.. and it gets published..
<jimbohertz> meh
<jimbohertz> feels old
<holstein> jimbohertz: ?
<holstein> jimbohertz: just let me know if you want to contribute,. the site needs not be redesigned
<OvenWerks> holstein: pressing and persistant?
<holstein> OvenWerks: just making friends
<holstein> :)
<OvenWerks> :)
<OvenWerks> It sounds like gime the kar keys..... NOW!
<holstein> right?!
<holstein> i thought i was going to get the newletter team a helper, though.. 
<zequence> [6~[6~[6~[6~joji	
<xequence> holstein: That jimbo guy just needs to get on the mail list and present himself. I'm usually asleep in the middle of night (which was the case when Jimbo was on just before)
<xequence> Can't answer someone who's not logged in either
<xequence> The new CD should be building within one or two weeks
<holstein> xequence: im not sure what the story is there.. seems like, if we dont want the website redesigned, he's not interested in helping
<xequence> holstein: :)
<xequence> A lot of people have passed by and have ideas. We also have an art lead, who has some ideas on that. But, if someone wants to do anything, they're always free to come with suggestions, examples of work, etc.
<elfy> people are awesome at passing by with ideas
<holstein> we just revamped the site not too long ago
 * elfy just meant generally by the way
<elfy> xequence: do you have any ideas about what to do with this testcase stuff?
<elfy> s/do you have any ideas about what you want to do with this testcase stuff?
<holstein> elfy: what are your thoughts?
<elfy> my thoughts are that no-one appears to be interested in helping
<elfy> I'm just here to try and corral it :)
<elfy> that's not strictly true - one person has done one
<holstein> elfy: i was thinking, back when the cases got added, it may be a little "overkill" for the team
<elfy> holstein: yea - I'm having the same conversation with stgraber re Edubuntu
<holstein> elfy:  i mean, no doubt we should be doing some JACK and audio production specific testing, but, does it need to be an official test case?
<elfy> I didn't have anything to do with adding the testcases I add :)
<elfy> holstein: depends how studio wants to do it I guess
<holstein> elfy: i was thinking, just do the bare minimum.. like basically whatever xubuntu has, and we can deal with other specific cases on our own
<elfy> it is a *small* team  - even smaller than the xubuntu one 
<holstein> yup
<holstein> but, i think if the cases were the same, the xubuntu team would help out, and typically does... and has been *quite* helpful
<elfy> speaking completely frankly I think that the best thing to do would be 
<elfy> invalid all the bugs
<holstein> elfy: personally, when i see the test case list, i find it daunting..
<elfy> then pick them one by one
<elfy> holstein: exactly
<elfy> I look at it and don't even know what the things are lol
<holstein> elfy: well, you have my vote.. not sure who added the cases.. it would be nice to get an OK from that person.. was it zequence ?
<holstein> elfy: *not* having them officially listed there doesnt mean we cant test them..
<elfy> I'd guess that what would be nice would be to try and get some stuff ready for the next LTS - little by little
<elfy> I'm happy to hang about helping with it 
<holstein> elfy: and cheers for helping ! :)
<elfy> holstein: of course not, it just means you can't do 'official' testing and 'tracking' 
<holstein> and, i suppose the tracking may be a deal breaker.. but, i think now, its just overkill, and, we can track them as bugs... 
<elfy> holstein: I can 'manage' things to the best of my ability and do this manual stuff
<elfy> so I do it where I can for who wants it :)
<elfy> holstein: no it wasn't anyone from any team who added all the bugs - chilcuil did it for *everyone* at some point
<elfy> I look at it as a testcase admin working with manual stuff and see ~150 bugs just sitting there :)
<holstein> lol
<holstein> yeah, we should address that..
<elfy> not just studio obviously - edubuntu aren't too bothered either - they've got a smaller team than studio :)
<elfy> I could write simple tests - but if no-one is actually going to run them - it's pointless
<holstein> yeah.. its got to be able to be managed
<elfy> and what *your* stuff needs is NOT simple tests :)
<holstein> right.. and we shoud be testing.. we have a different custom kernel and all that.. and JACK is not trivial
<holstein> i dont think we should expect that of a casual iso tester, though
<elfy> indeed
<holstein> the iso test should be more that.. iso test.. not help with debugging
<elfy> I did at least make you some image tests that included your menu
<elfy> not sure if they're actually being used tbh
<elfy> I've been trying not to get too disheartened with the test response for our stuff mostly - everyone *buntu wide is a bit pheeeeeeew atm :)
<elfy> I wonder if studio would actually be better served with say
<elfy> an audio image test and a general audio testcase "Use what you use- report bugs"
<elfy> a photo one - the same - just really quite basic - but at least you'll get some feedback
<elfy> you could run audio apps for ~3 months - start a test result - leave it as pending and just add bugs
<holstein> yeah.. even listed on a wiki, less formal.. something anyone can edit
<elfy> just an idea
<holstein> elfy: i like it
<elfy> holstein: yep - which is why I did that wiki for studio
<elfy> as long as there are some *rules* on it - if you do a testcase - don't waste peoples time - let them know for instance
<holstein> i get overwhellmed on wikis.. and TBH, i wanted to just claim a "bankruptcy" or sorts a while back (probably 12.10) and just delete some that are old... 
<holstein> but, the wiki system is great.. its strengths are its weaknesses, so to speak
<elfy> yea
<elfy> I think what I'll do is write a mail to the list re all this - the standard system isn't going to work for a while 
<elfy> put my thoughts down and let you all mull it over
<holstein> elfy: i like it.. its a great idea to thin that out, for sure
<holstein> elfy: you'll send to studio devel?
<elfy> I'm talking to balloons later re this hackfest coming up - I'll try and have a chat with him about studio too 
<elfy> holstein: yep
<holstein> occasionally i try and get "Fact time" with jono RE: studio
<holstein> i would like for him to just do *anything* with the technology related to his music.. and post about it
<elfy> it could be if we make then a kind of meta-testcase we could have a tracker set up for studio in a month or so 
<elfy> which would be good for all concerned
<holstein> elfy: agreed.. simpler, and cleaner
<elfy> hard to pin jono down with anything other than 6"nails and a big hammer at the moment I'd guess :p
<holstein> i would love to have a larger overall "goals" kind of talk about studio
<holstein> see if we can get a clear idea, that is attainable for the next LTS
<holstein> for now til the next LTS..
<elfy> I'd try and make myself available for something like that from *my* pov
<holstein> see if we cant get some interest going, and momentum, or, quite frankly, just let it go
<elfy> as I said - I'm happy to hang about and do what I can
<holstein> i dont think its constructive to just have it flailing along and half meeting needs..
<elfy> possibly not - but I don't actually use studio so can't comment on that
<holstein> i also dont think it would be out of the scope of the current team size to *really* have a nice product
<holstein> the current is quite nice..
<elfy> I used to play about with a few software synths a few years back - but that's all gone now
<elfy> well edubuntu ONLY do LTS - so it's not new
<elfy> pretty sure myth do similar
<elfy> more emphasis on SRU's and backporting perhaps - I don't know for sure
<elfy> maybe that would work for studio - I don't know 
<holstein> elfy: i would be interested in entertaining that..
<holstein> elfy: the older team lead came in and had, actualy, a great suggestion about not having an official iso release. but, just maintaining the meta packages
<elfy> sometimes it takes someone outside looking in to point out the obvious - though having not been about I don't know if you've discussed that beforehand 
<holstein> problem for me was, that was like 2 weeks before 12.04 was to release.. and we had been hustling to get it out, so i was against canning all that work at that time.. then, he went MIA again
<elfy> mmm
<elfy> trouble with doing it in spare time I guess
<holstein> there is also talk of having more of a generic installer that integrates with any desktop, which i actually think is a great idea as well, but maybe too ambitious for us
<elfy> tbh from where I stand 
<elfy> I see you, cub, OvenWerks and zequence talking - no-one else 
<holstein> and who is really using studio? who is the target audience? do they need ultimate choice like that? or whatever..
<holstein> elfy: its a small team..
<elfy> if that is the case then perhaps not doing a 6 month release would do everyone a world of good
<holstein> im not a code contributor, so i get in over my head quickly..
<elfy> holstein: I am exactly the same :)
<elfy> all voodoo to me ... 
<holstein> i cant do any of the hands on heavy lifting..
<elfy> yep - understoof
<elfy> d
<elfy> that's why I do what I do for xubuntu - I want to help - and this way I can :)
<holstein> elfy: :)
<elfy> which is why I offered my help to you :)
<holstein> and, i feel like us sticking with a solid xfce release allows for the team to be helped more
<holstein> it doesnt hurt the xubuntu team...
<elfy> I'll have a chat later with balloons  re testcases then I'll make some suggestions on the list 
<holstein> yup.. and i like just getting some text in the channel here about the future..
<elfy> yea - having an extra team using xfce helps us too 
<holstein> momentum!
<elfy> yea - always good that :)
<elfy> or mostly :p
<xequence> elfy: We are short of people for sure. I will take some time to write one or two, and that way get a feeling for what is required. In the end, I believe only a few things are really critical to test.
<xequence> ..so, we should be alright. If we can get more people involved the next couple of years, that would be good too.
<xequence> I think it'll be easier for me to fish for people, when I'm more clear on exactly what we need to have done.
<holstein> xequence: do you agree that there is no need to have those test cases up at iso testing?
<holstein> can we do more of a simple iso test that would mirror xubuntu?
<xequence> holstein: We only need to do the application testing once, after Debian freeze
<xequence> ..at any time, more or less
<xequence> or, when anything was updated for those applications. A dependency..
<holstein> sure, but do you agree that application testing can be done elsewhere? other than iso testing?
<xequence> Yes
<holstein> cool.. i think that was the idea.. just thinning out the iso tests..
<xequence> As quickly we can, after Beta 1 release (Debian import freeze), so we have time to do something about bugs before Beta 2
<cub> Hi ttoine, I made the same footer for the web site as on the spreashirt site. It's not live on the site yet though
<cub> mockup site at http://bandforum.info/ubuntustudio/
#ubuntustudio-devel 2014-07-08
<xequence> OvenWerks: I'm doing the first SRU version of -controls in GTK, as that is what I know.
<xequence> Need only a couple of days of work to finish it, I think
<cub> same ol' same ol'
<zequence> cub: Watching the game? :D
<cub> nope
<cub> eating cheese and drinking wine. :P
<cub> is it a good one? I don't even know who's playing
<zequence> cub: Germany-Brazil, 7-1
<zequence> Well, I still think the Dutch will grab the gold
<zequence> I'll retire now. Been out on a trip. Best get some sleep :)
<cub> woaw crazy result
<cub> see ya zequence, I'm on vacation as well. Half way to Gothenburg.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2014-07-09
<zequence> cub: are you staying long? Tought maybe we could meet up. I'm only available on Thu though, as I'm travelling again on Fri. Will be back the following Thu again.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2014-07-10
<zequence> OvenWerks: If you're interested, I just pushed a GUI demo of the SRU version of ubuntustudio-controls. Doesn't do anything yet, but the barebones are all there.
<zequence> The code is badly organized. Latest push checks if settings are good or not (sort of).
<zequence> I'll only need one or two days to finish it up. But, won't have time again until a week from now.
<zequence> OvenWerks: holstein: elfy: Just a heads up that I'll be gone for a week, and will be completely unreachable during that time.
<elfy> yep - saw that zequence - have fun if it's fun you're off for :)
<zequence> elfy: A week of Robinson Crusoe, basically, except it's a small island on the east coast of Sweden
<zequence> I'm bringing my cell phone, so if I do have connection, I'll at least be able to watch the football final
<elfy> sounds awesome - have enough fun to last a long time :)
<zequence> yep, will try my best :)
<OvenWerks> zequence: Have a good time.... hope to do about the same in august
<zequence> OvenWerks: See you next week
#ubuntustudio-devel 2014-07-11
<OvenWerks> I should have looked at this sooner. I guess most of the libavcodec-extra packages are no longer, so they are removed from our seeds... unfortunately the one left seems to be the wrong one.
<OvenWerks> Or perhaps the one left in the repos has the wrong name... and is missing updates?
#ubuntustudio-devel 2015-07-06
<Sakrecoer> hi! i'm sorry i take such time to get started.. i'm having a bit of a logisitcal issue to install de dev version... need to resize my encrypted drive but it seems i will have to reinstall everything for that....
<Sakrecoer> but i should be able to get it done this week...
<Sakrecoer> but the live-version of 15.10 menu looks very good!
<Sakrecoer> zequence: on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/FeatureDefinitions/MultimediaApplicationCategorization#Phase_1:_Make_suggestions it is stated:
<Sakrecoer> "Install the package that the desktop file belongs to, if needed, in order to learn what the application that you start with the desktop file is used for. "
<Sakrecoer> is it likely that those packages aren't yet installed in the 15.10 dev?
<Sakrecoer> and if so, do i proceed with a simple apt-get install or do i need to use some ..ehm..."manual" proceedure?
<Sakrecoer> i'm sorry if it's a stupid question... if it is i am affraid it might not be the last one :D
<Sakrecoer> i'll be back soon :) have a great week y'all!
<OvenWerks> Sakrecoer-readin: apt-get install is about as manual as it gets. synaptic may be more useful as it will tell you what the names of the files are that it installed. If you right click on any installed package and select properties, a dialog comes up with one tab being installed files. This can help find the exact name of the desktop file if:
<OvenWerks> ls /usr/share/applications/*appname* doesn't find it first.
<OvenWerks> There will be for sure a commandline method of finding out the installed files in a package... but I don't know what that is.
<OvenWerks> My thought is that because we are working on UbuntuStudio, we should start with the applications we actually ship first.
<OvenWerks> I am glad you like the menu as it sits, but you do need to know that every <Filename> line in /etc/xdg/menus/applications-merged/studio.menu is an application that does not have the categories we would like to see.
<OvenWerks> I have had to use the <Filename> tag to force it to be where it is. The good news is I am doing less of that than before... 
<OvenWerks> You may notice that some of the filenames in there are for apps we do not ship, that is because it is based on my system and I have added SW I need/wanted to try out.
 * OvenWerks is not sure why studio does not even have a guitar tuner
<Sakrecoer> OvenWerks: thank you for the feedback :) and also, you've been doing an amazing job!
<Sakrecoer> everyone really..
<Sakrecoer> :)
 * Sakrecoer votes in favour of a guitar tuner
#ubuntustudio-devel 2015-07-07
<zequence> sakrecoer-ZzZz: The packages in the list are the full total of all packages in Debian sections sound, graphics and video, so not just the ones we ship
<zequence> Our menu would be useless, if it only works with applications that we ship, so before we can use it the way we want to, ALL desktop files need to be done correctly
<cub> Hello people
<cub> zequence, do we have any interest in a Writer's application? Such as Scrivener, but open source?
<cub> I have had some contact with a developer doing a Novel writer solution, but open source which Scrivener might not be in the end. I think it would be a nice addition to Ubuntu Studio in the future even though is more being creative with words than audio/video
<cub> http://www.plume-creator.eu/
<cub> Since I like this kind of application I'm thinking of helping him/them out with some community stuff is possible
<cub> I suppose, once there is a stable release, one should try to get it into Debian repositories though I'm not sure how hard that is.
<zequence> cub: Isn't it already, package: plume-creator
<cub> oh I didn't even check..haha
<zequence> I'm not against adding it. It does not belong in any of our three main categories though, right?
<cub> True, it is already in Debian. I feel a bit stupid now.
<cub> No it's not any of the main catagories
<zequence> YOu can find a lot of strange things packaged
<zequence> Like, svtplay-dl
<cub> :D
<cub> I just figured it wasn't included since it's offered in download form on the web site/sourceforge
<zequence> We haven't considered a workflow for writing at all. These days, I can't imagine anyone using a pen, or even a type writer
<zequence> The web site looked pretty plain
<cub> That's the old stable version though, 0.66. He is doing make over in Python for the next release so kind of from scratch
<cub> yeah, it's only one developer and an author in the "team" I think
<zequence> Wonder what writers usually like to use
<cub> he wanted a writer app for himself and coded it.
<zequence> other than Worrrd
<cub> It seems Scrivener is very popular where you can gather everything in one place
<cub> A friend of mine has published 4 books now done in Word and multiple sources for keeping track of notes
<cub> He is going to buy Scrivener for the next book since he thinks it is quite hard keeping everything together using just an editor like Word
<cub> http://www.bokus.com/cgi-bin/product_search.cgi?authors=Peo%20Bengtsson
<zequence> Can't find scrivener googling it. Sure you spelled it right?
<zequence> That's a bunch of books
<cub> https://www.literatureandlatte.com/scrivener.php
<zequence> Ah, yes I found it.
<cub> And the linux version: https://www.literatureandlatte.com/forum/viewforum.php?f=33
<zequence> plume creator looks very archaic
<cub> The Scrivener linux version looks more or less the same
<cub> There is an option for themes, but I haven't tried it out yet. Not sure how much I will meddle with the 0.66 version since it's not going be developed further
<zequence> plume creator doesn't seem to be well translated from French
<zequence> Some stuff missing
<zequence> Usually the other way around :)
<cub> That's what I thought, but apparently some of the names for things are supposed to be in French
<cub> He's French though so the translation might be lacking. Something I might be able to help out with
<zequence> Mise en scÃ¨ne? I haven't been to writers school
<cub> me neither, I had to look it up
<zequence> Has some nice ideas
<zequence> Multiple drafts
<zequence> Gui is not fully functional on this DE at least (Gnome)
<zequence> Some tooltips are just white, no content
<cub> did you install through apt-get or .deb?
<zequence> Version 0.66+dfsg1-2 on Debian Jessie
<zequence> I use Debian on my main machine
<cub> nice, so it's a recent version in the repos
<cub> yeah, I'm actually on Debian Jessie now as well
<cub> We'll see how the development goes with 1.5
<cub> it could be something for 2016 or 2017. Would be good to get a few more people involved...if he's interested in that.
<zequence> Auto saving is nice. Something all applications should have. You should only need to worry about revisions, not about saving data
<zequence> One guy can only do so much
<cub> Yeah, Scrivener works in the same way. He told me there is an issue in 0.66 with losing data once every 1000 time or something, so the recommendation have been to use Dropbox or similar to be able to bring back an older History version.
<cub> Happened to me at my first try. :D
<cub> Weird though, because the text I wrote is not visible in the app, but when I do an export it's there. But won't be fixed as he's only working on 1.5 now
<cub> It's basically just the one developer and an american author as a tester
<cub> so far
<zequence> The underground movement of the underground movement
<zequence> 2 people out of 7 billion
<zequence> Almost at the level of what Ubuntu Studio is now
<zequence> It's kind of fascinating, when you start to think about it
<cub> Still, there's a new comment or question on Ubuntu Studio every day
<zequence> Everyone eats food, but not everyone makes it
<zequence> Ok, time for some grub (food)
<OvenWerks> cub: book publishing was... what the publishing workflow was supposed to be about
<cub> With the thought of the actual creation of the book to be published?
<OvenWerks> The thing with any of these creative tools is having someone who uses that workflow involved in Studio to make good comments on properly supporting it.
<cub> It would fit in there quite well then
<OvenWerks> That is my thought too.
<OvenWerks> I think Studio started as an Audio creation tool and has expanded to cover artistic creation in general
<OvenWerks> Now that we have the ability to choose which SW to include in the install we should be able to include those things.
<cub> Sure, there has also been some talks/questions about whether html editors should be included
<OvenWerks> Yes
<cub> hmm I thought it was a good idea to add some fonts to my system...but 1.5 GB seems a  bit over the top.
<cub> all in one package.
<OvenWerks> it was kicked around 3 or 4 years ago and the general feeling was that people picked their own preference anyway... but I feel it would be nice to have one anyway. I use bluefish, but that is just because that is what I started with. I don't know that it is the best.
<zequence> Publishing is not about writing books though
<cub> I used Bluefish for many years
<cub> but now I just use vim
<OvenWerks> zequence: that is true, but back when Scott was first talking about, it was about books or ebooks. I am not stuck on that myself though. My thought is to support what we have people using.
<zequence> And, I would say Studio has been allround for quite a while. If not, since the beginning. I only started using it at about 2008
<OvenWerks> cub: I use "joe" for my text editor.
<zequence> books, ebooks, yes, but printing them is one thing, and creating the stories another
<OvenWerks> I have never felt at home with vi*
<OvenWerks> Lyx anyone?
<zequence> I've sometimes wanted to learn joe. It looks nice,
<OvenWerks> joe is based on the text only "word processors" of yester year. I keybindings were pretty standard over a number of products.
<OvenWerks> It is a lot like nano but with a lot more features.
<OvenWerks> If you have ever used wordstar, joe is like that.
<OvenWerks> MixBus3 is out. The price is very nice at $79. It is based on Ardour 4.
<zequence> The got some plugins too, but they were not as cheap :P
<OvenWerks> zequence: the plugins cost more because you can't download the source and build... and they are all in house. MB is based on a lot of comunity help.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2015-07-08
<zequence> Would be interesting to know how good the plugs are. I'm sticking with the free stuff, for now.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2015-07-12
<OvenWerks> rolling release is looking better all the time...
#ubuntustudio-devel 2016-07-11
<sakrecoer_> i contacted community council to help us evaluate and mediate the current situation. i did no attempt to paint myself as better than anyone, and i hope you believe me when i say i am deeply sorry about how i managed the situation and the group dynamic this might have generated.
<sakrecoer_> i hope the council will be able to evalute my position as lead and help me learn from my mistakes. i do not plan on bailing you, but i will leave if that turns out to be the best option we can find.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2016-07-12
<zequence> sakrecoer: That's the right move.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2018-07-09
<Eickmeyer> cyphermox: Done, take a look
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: re: ubuntustudi-plasma seeds... starting over :P
<OvenWerks> I realized that all the meta packages can not be added the same way as our seeds.
<OvenWerks> If I make an audio-core file for example, when the seeds get meta-ed then there would be two ubuntustudio-audio-core packages or worse there would also be a ubuntustudio-plasma-audio-core package that was the same.
<OvenWerks> So, I am starting with https://code.launchpad.net/~kubuntu-dev/ubuntu-seeds/kubuntu.cosmic which is a bzr package by the way, and after taking out desktop.minimal-remove and taking the packages in there out of desktop... I can add a metas file that adds our metas.
<Eickmeyer> Oh cool!
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: I am also looking at the current seeds and think that some of the stuff in desktop-core would be better in desktop... but oh well. later perhaps.
<Eickmeyer> Yeah, let's not get our elbows any deeper than they have to be. :)
<OvenWerks> Is PIM something we don't want?
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: I am looking at the things kubuntu removes for the short version and wondering if it's worth it. We don't want to remove libreoffice for sure.
<Eickmeyer> No, not at all. Should we just keep Kubuntu and load our stuff on top?
<OvenWerks> I am begining to think that may be best
<OvenWerks> just use kubuntu-full as the desktop.
<OvenWerks> in any case, seeing as we don't want to offer something full for the ISO and then remove some, if we start with full as is and then just remove things from the iso if we decide we don't need/want then, that would be easier.
<Eickmeyer> Uh, probably shouldn't do kubuntu-full. Kubuntu-full isn't what's included with Kubuntu by default, but default plus the kitchen sink.
<Eickmeyer> kubuntu-desktop does the trick.
<Eickmeyer> I could throw the Ubuntu Studio customization of KInfoCenter into -look, because that will essentially rebrand it.
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: what I have included (so far as I can tell) is what their live iso looks like.
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: https://code.launchpad.net/~ubuntustudio-dev/ubuntu-seeds/ubuntustudio-plasma.cosmic
<OvenWerks> feel free to take a look.
<OvenWerks> Once we get a working ISO, we can look at what we have and start weeding it out and down.
<OvenWerks> What I have done so far, is to use their desktop and our packages. I do not know that I even have the lowlatency kernel in there... baby steps I guess
<OvenWerks> I think once we have an ISO, the next thing is to make sure we have installed user in audio group, lowlatency kernel, working rt permisions. I will be creating two or three packages soon :)
<OvenWerks> a) ubuntustudio-plasma-settings
<OvenWerks> b) ubuntustudio-xfce-settings
<OvenWerks> c) remove xfce stuff from ubuntustudio-default-settings
<OvenWerks> when I next have time... I will copy kde's settings package and create a studio one. I think it should get along with -default-settings just fine.
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: looking at the seeds, I can't see where lowlatency gets added
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: there seem to be some things our iso does that are not done by the seeds file.
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: I have the feeling that lowlatency is pulled-in as a dependency of -default-settings. It's a dependency somewhere.
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: that doesn't seem to be true.
<OvenWerks> also there is the fact that generic isn't pulled in
<Eickmeyer> Standby...
<OvenWerks> It is like there is yet another file that does some things
<Eickmeyer> I'm looking, and I don't see it as a direct dependency of any of our packages. I'd think that -audio would depend on it, but apparently not.
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: in our iso there is preseed/ubuntustudio.seed
<OvenWerks> where does that come from?
<OvenWerks> It seems there is a recipe for making iso somewhere that adds to our seeds
<Eickmeyer> The seed is under tsimonq2's git repos.
<Eickmeyer> https://code.launchpad.net/~tsimonq2/ubuntu-seeds/+git/ubuntustudio/+ref/cosmic
<OvenWerks> That is just a copy of what we have as bzr
<Eickmeyer> I can't find where lowlatency is specifically called. It must be a dependency of a dependency.
<OvenWerks> I think there is another config file.
<Eickmeyer> Probably. Though, iirc, when I installed Artful, it didn't automatically pull-in -lowlatency, I had to install it with -installer.
<Eickmeyer> At the time, I told people it did not come installed by default.
 * Eickmeyer might have to play around with this some more
<OvenWerks> then Artful would have been broken.
<Eickmeyer> Except it wasn't. It had the generic kernel.
<Eickmeyer> which is pulled-in by ubuntu-core, which is definitely a dependency somewhere.
<Eickmeyer> Sorry, ubuntu-minimal, which is installed in everything.
<OvenWerks> Studio somehow installs lowlatency, but not generic. When that doesn't happen that iso would be broken, it will install and run but be incorrect.
<OvenWerks> anyway breakfast...
<Eickmeyer>  o/
<cyphermox> Eickmeyer: thanks, I'll review and upload this pm
<Eickmeyer> cyphermox: Thanks!
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: I just ran the live CD again. Yeah, I'm stumped. Paging tsimonq2, sakrecoer, Wimpress.... anybody? We're trying to figure out how linux-lowlatency gets called by our seed.
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: https://code.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-cdimage/ubuntu-cdimage/mainline
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: the code looks for projects or project files.
<OvenWerks> ubuntustudio is listed as one of the projects, but I have not found what it does with that... time to branch it so I can us grep...
<Eickmeyer> Yeah. :/
<OvenWerks> well at least the word lowlatency shows up when searching for studio
<Eickmeyer> Haha! Yeah, I found that out too. I searched synaptic for lowlatency, came up with the kernel and -default-settings.
<OvenWerks> https://bazaar.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-cdimage/ubuntu-cdimage/mainline/view/head:/lib/cdimage/livefs.py
<OvenWerks>             if project == "ubuntustudio":
<OvenWerks>                 return ["lowlatency"]
<Eickmeyer> Aha! Therefore, it should still work with a new seed, right?
<OvenWerks> what a mess, all of these things _should_ be in a config file rather than sprinkled through the code.
<Eickmeyer> So long as that seed convey it's ubuntustudio
<OvenWerks> there will be about 30 places in the code that have to be fixed.
<OvenWerks> not so easy, we have to add ubuntustudio-plasma in each place I can find ubuntustudio
<Eickmeyer> smh
<Eickmeyer> I wonder if tsimonq2 had to go through this with lxqt.
<OvenWerks> I say we, but it probably means someone with access
<OvenWerks> he would have only had to make 20 or so changes :)
<Eickmeyer> Well, then I suppose we should branch it and ask for a merge request?
<Eickmeyer> Or, ask in #ubuntu-release.
<OvenWerks> I have a branch... but I have to figure out how it all works.
<Eickmeyer> It has slangasek's name all over it. Literally. All those commits.
<OvenWerks> I haven't yet found out how I make the installing user have audio group or make jackd2 install with rt yes.
<Eickmeyer> I just asked slangasek if anything needs to be tweaked in ubuntu-cdimage to facilitate our new seed. I highly doubt that, unless the project name is anything other than "ubuntustudio" that it'll have to change.
<Eickmeyer> We'll see what he says.
<OvenWerks> the image has to have a different name. lubuntu and lubuntu-next are listed separate
<Eickmeyer> Then it might be that he makes those changes. We shouldn't have to worry about changing that code, imo, unless he wants a pull/merge requet.
<Eickmeyer> *request
<Eickmeyer> BTW, for Cosmic's purposes, lubuntu is lubuntu-next and lubuntu-next is depricated.
<Eickmeyer> So, it could be that the code hasn't changed to reflect that yet.
<Eickmeyer> That's _literally_ slangasek's job.
<OvenWerks> the code has everything in it since the dawn of time (or the dawn of ubuntu anyway)
<Eickmeyer> Yeah.
<OvenWerks> there is still stuff in there for hardy
 * Eickmeyer 's mind is blown
<OvenWerks> it looks like things are listed as <something> is true starting with <cycle>
<Eickmeyer> Stuff in there for historical reasons until a particular version is EOL'd so that the build system knows not to build it, but the code isn't deleted for history sake?
<Eickmeyer> Â¯\_(ã)_/Â¯ 
<OvenWerks> job security?
<Eickmeyer> Haha!
<OvenWerks> anyway, first try at a seed is done.
<OvenWerks> if anyone wants to look through the desktop... oh, I probably need to rename that to desktop-plasma
<Eickmeyer> Haha!
 * Eickmeyer still needs to add the KInfoCenter mod to -look
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: <infinity> Eickmeyer: And while it all happens on "our end", MPs welcome to ubuntu-cdimage and debian-cd and ubuntu-archive-scripts
<Eickmeyer> <infinity> Eickmeyer: If it uses the same seed layout as studio (and for your sanity, I hope it does, that's much less pain to wrap your brain around), it should just be a matter of grepping around for studio and sprinkling some studio|studio-plasma here and there.
<OvenWerks> MPs = Members of Parlement?
<OvenWerks> Military police?
<Eickmeyer> LOL... hang on...
<OvenWerks> merge proposals I think
<Eickmeyer> Yes, that'd be most likely.
<Eickmeyer> And verified by slangasek
<OvenWerks> when I first moved here I wondered why people were talking about NIC all the time (network interface card?) then I found out it was North Island College
<Eickmeyer> Haha! Same, when I lived in Idaho: North Idaho College
<Eickmeyer> And then CSI: College of Southern Idaho
<Eickmeyer> And UI: University of Idaho
<Eickmeyer> smh
 * tsimonq2 waves
<tsimonq2> Sup
<tsimonq2> Eickmeyer: Yeah, this was an absolute royal PITA for LXQt... but now that I've been through it, I know what I'm doing. ;)
<tsimonq2> Eickmeyer: ubuntu-cdimage can proudly build almost any image from any version; that isn't going away. ;)
<Eickmeyer> tsimonq2: That makes sense. OvenWerks, there's our answer.
 * Eickmeyer was out running an errand #shocker
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: When you have ubuntustudio-plasma-settings ready, I have a couple items to merge-in.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2018-07-10
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: it looks like I have 6 packages to look at to get one :P
<Eickmeyer> Wow.
<OvenWerks> I think we can leave kubuntu-web-shortcuts in place. We can maybe learn from it and add to it. We sort of do the same with -menu anyway but this will document plasma itself. (we leave xfce help stuff in now)
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: That made me curious, and now I'm looking at the code tree. XD
<Eickmeyer> Yeah, I see no reason why not keep those. Only one of them is kubuntu specific.
<Eickmeyer> A pretty cool idea, in fact!
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: we can mod it I suppose, but I would rather use it as is so we don't have to maintain it...
<Eickmeyer> Yeah, I have no problem with that.
<Eickmeyer> Looks like ubuntustudio-plasma-settings is going to have to conflict, provide, and replace kubuntu-settings-desktop since we'll have at least one file that will overwrite it.
<OvenWerks> which one? (but yes anyway)
<OvenWerks> I find it interesting that the kubuntu-desktop does not directly bring in sddm.
<Eickmeyer> the /etc/xdg/kcm-about-distrorc I made. Points to an ubuntustudio-icon-theme file and changes the distro name and website to reflect ours.
<Eickmeyer> Also means ubuntustudio-icon-theme will be a dependency.
<OvenWerks> Ah, ok.
<Eickmeyer> And probably -look.
<OvenWerks> I think I already added those to metas
<OvenWerks> https://bazaar.launchpad.net/~ubuntustudio-dev/ubuntu-seeds/ubuntustudio-plasma.cosmic/view/head:/metas
<OvenWerks> I guess the whole works (almost) should be * (package)
<cyphermox> Eickmeyer: do you also have a pristine-tar branch? because for some reason I can't seem to build the package
<krytarik> Eickmeyer: https://askubuntu.com/questions/945531/change-distribution-logo-in-kinfocenter - it would seem something like "/etc/xdg/xdg-ubuntustudio-plasma/kcm-about-distrorc" should work too - might be a better option for the Kubuntu folks as well, now that more than one flavor is about to use the Plasma desktop.
<OvenWerks> that is the way we do xfce already
<krytarik> Well, given that Kubuntu aren't doing this already, just thought I'd first make somewhat sure it also works. :P
<OvenWerks> krytarik: so far as I know, Studio is the only flavour that does so.
<OvenWerks> The xdg spec seems to allow for this.
<krytarik> Well, the spec yes, but not all apps follow it or fully.
<OvenWerks> :)
<OvenWerks> in some ways kde has been better than gnome... some not so much
<Eickmeyer> krytarik: Kubuntu has a custom /etc/xdg/kcm-about-disrorc, so no that wouldn't work.
<Eickmeyer> cyphermox: Did it not go? I definitely have a pristine-tar branch.
<krytarik> Eickmeyer: My suggestion would rank it before that one though.
<Eickmeyer> krytarik: Oh, okay.
<krytarik> Same as the specific Xfce stuff ranks before the generic one currently.
<Eickmeyer> krytarik: Right, but that's confusing since the Kubuntu one is custom.
<krytarik> Yes, hence my suggestion to move that as well.
<Eickmeyer> cyphermox: Fixed
<cyphermox> ta
#ubuntustudio-devel 2018-07-11
<cyphermox> Eickmeyer: I haven't forgotten you; reviewing stuff is sometimes time-intensive, and I've been busy with other things
<cyphermox> so, I have some requested changes
<cyphermox> https://paste.ubuntu.com/p/kyVRmcZzsz/
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: regarding adding /etc/xdg/xdg-ubuntustudio-plasma sub directory... What is in /etc/xdg that you think should be replaced?
<OvenWerks> That is, if there is nothing in there that needs to be replaced... the original menu is fine (for once)
<OvenWerks> never mind, just need to figure out how.
<OvenWerks> that said, whatever package this comes from: /usr/share/glib-2.0/schemas/20_ubuntustudio-default-settings.gschema.override
<OvenWerks> should be updated
<OvenWerks> picture uri is 1404
<krytarik> OvenWerks: https://git.launchpad.net/ubuntustudio-default-settings/tree/debian/ubuntustudio-default-settings.gsettings-override
<OvenWerks> I thought it might be
<OvenWerks> the picture uri should probably be changed to the default one. Now that we use a default name.
<krytarik> Yeah.
<OvenWerks> still, I would like to have a Studio-plasma iso to play with so I know what comes with it now.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2018-07-12
<Eickmeyer> cyphermox: Fixed as much as I could.
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: /etc/xdg/kcm-about-distrorc which should read: https://paste.ubuntu.com/p/qpndxCQYp9/
<cyphermox> ta
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: Should the session name be ubuntustudio-plasma or can it still be just ubuntustudio? If the xfce4 stuff is removed from -default-settings, both could use the same session name. However, if someone ever installed -xfce4-settings things would collide.
<OvenWerks> anyway, I may not be at my desk next week. It would be a delightful surprise to see -controls actually released and a ubuntustudio-plasma ISO when I get back...
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: We should have separate sessions, just in case somebody wants to install both, which, imo, shouldn't be hindered.
<OvenWerks> I think I figured that out. It is just that ubuntustudio-plasma is long and unweildy
<OvenWerks> maybe we could just do studio-plasma and studio-xfce?
<Eickmeyer> You mean in terms of the Session file or the display name? I guess either way is fine.
<OvenWerks> I am probably being lazy :)
<Eickmeyer> hehe
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: https://code.launchpad.net/~ubuntustudio-dev/+git/ubuntustudio-plasma-settings
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: this is very basic rebuild and not nearly ready. But I figure by getting up others can figure out what I can't.
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: basically everything in desktop/ needs something to be done with it. The original install file does not say where these files go nor seem to put them anywhere.
<OvenWerks> The stuff in etc and usr could be checked but should be ready to go.
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: this package should not be added to the seeds until it has been tested and _released_ otherwise any iso build will fail. An auto build package can be added to a pre built iso for testing.
<OvenWerks> (in other words we can build for the ppa and test before release)
<OvenWerks> The above repo needs to be rejistered as a project so it can be lp:ubuntustudio-plasma-settings
<OvenWerks> I could not figure out how to do that
<OvenWerks> building soon...
#ubuntustudio-devel 2018-07-13
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: I could probably figure that part out as I did with Carla. But, alas, it's been a long day and I have some pertinent plans involving my bed and my head on my pillow. Also, tomorrow is looking to be a little interesting as my wife found a leak in the kitchen sinc.
<Eickmeyer> *sink
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: https://launchpad.net/ubuntustudio-plasma-settings
<Eickmeyer> I couldn't simply link it, I had to clone and re-upload. That said, it still appears as owned by ubuntustudio-dev.
<Eickmeyer> So, I'll delete your original and we'll use lp:ubuntustudio-plasma-settings from now on.
<OvenWerks> ok
<OvenWerks>  Glad I found out I was about to upload changes
<OvenWerks> (mostly removal of uneeded stuff
<Eickmeyer> Oh, okay. Just 'git remote set-url origin lp:ubuntustudio-plasma-settings' and bob's your uncle.
<OvenWerks> it seems that many old no longer used directories of stuff were just laft in place
<Eickmeyer> Just outdated way of doing things supplanted by new ways?
<Eickmeyer> BTW, I did a big test on Wednesday using ubuntustudio-controls, catia, and Ardour. 0 xruns the entire time.
<Eickmeyer> All on Plasma with compositing enabled.
<OvenWerks>  :)
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: all we need now is to get it released.
<OvenWerks> it = -controls
<Eickmeyer> Yep. I still think it needs a way to monitor xruns, but if we have tools like catia and ardour, those are more than capable. I think the bigger challenge is going to be getting Cadence (with catia) released since its changelog especially is a cluster.
<OvenWerks> if you have cadence installed in order to get catia, can you have a normal no jack pulse desktop?
<Eickmeyer> You don't have to have cadence installed in order to get catia.
<OvenWerks> hmm, no jack running but pulse runs normally
<OvenWerks> Ah.
<Eickmeyer> Catia doesn't depend on cadence, but Cadence depends on catia.
<Eickmeyer> That's why it's an ideal drop-in replacement for patchage.
<OvenWerks> yes
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: That said, Catia will run without Jack and can even start Jack, but the interface (read: graphical patchbay) will not function without Jack running.
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: we would prefer catia (and any other sw) not to start jack :)
<OvenWerks> the auto start function will start jackd rather than jackdbus.
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: Yes. Catia is aware if jack is already running in some form.
<Eickmeyer> It won't let you start it if it's already running.
<OvenWerks> That does not hard -controls really, because -controls will killall -9 jackd as part of starting up.
<Eickmeyer> Right.
<OvenWerks> s/hard/harm/
<Eickmeyer> It will let you stop Jack, and can restart using its own settings, but only if you tell it to do so. The advantage there is that you can use the dummy audio driver and specify number of ports on in/out, which is especially useful if simulating a setup.
<Eickmeyer> However, for live production, letting -controls handle the connections is better.
<OvenWerks> At some point I should look to see if cadence is running and only do things that add to cadence's capability like adding a usb device via zita-ajbridge
<Eickmeyer> Yeah, the USB live plugging is something that no other graphical jack controller is currently handling.
<OvenWerks> but right now I just want to get it out there
<Eickmeyer> Indeed. Were you working with tsimonq2 or cyphermox? Or did we want to send Ross an email?
<OvenWerks> I think tsimonq2 was looking at it. I cleaned up the lintian problems then I have heard nothing.
<Eickmeyer> Okay. He's a busy guy, but I know he's watching. hehe
<OvenWerks> I don't know so far as getting ubuntustudio-plasma.iso going
<Eickmeyer> I alerted infinity and slangasek about it, but I don't know what's going on from there. Infinity says he'd welcome MPs.
<OvenWerks> But once it gets started... then I will try our auto build of the settings against what is there
<Eickmeyer> From their perspective, it's a new flavor, but we don't have to jump through the hoops that a new flavor needs to get started since we're already established.
<OvenWerks> So basically go through the script set and add the plasma stuff along any studio things we find.
<OvenWerks> fun, fun
<Eickmeyer> Yeah, pretty much. I'd recommend jumping into #ubuntu-release and working with them there. Some of that stuff is a bit over my head.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2018-07-14
<OvenWerks> tsimonq2: said something about creating a meta package from the seeds first.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2019-07-10
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: is it realatively simple to chmod -x /etc/grub.d/10_linux when we install /etc/grub.d/09_lowlatency?
<OvenWerks> This would allow us to use /etc/grub.d/09_lowlatency to replace /etc/grub.d/10_linux
<OvenWerks> This would get rid of the second confusing entry we have now as well as listing them as RT, lowlatency and generic if they exist. I would also like to all the user to set default.
<OvenWerks> IE, next boot please use generic. (would be in controls of course)
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: anyway, I will start a new 09_lowlatency (should it be 09_ubuntustudio? for easier blame?) with the assumption we can do that. I will also add a RAEDME.ubuntustudio that explains the how and why of what was done to keep people from going "hey I use linux, why is 10_linux turned off?"
<Eickmeyer[m]> OvenWerks: Good idea. In the ER now with abdominal pain. Just make sure that +x is set on the file and it should translate like the other one does.
<OvenWerks> huh, I'll talk later then :) working on it anyway
#ubuntustudio-devel 2019-07-11
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer[m]: I have added a postinst to lowlatency, I have added a README.lowlatency.
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer[m]: how be the gut?
<Eickmeyer> Better. They're thinking it was viral gastroenteritis, and largely gone. They couldn't see anything apparently wrong, so that's the only thing they've got.
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer[m]: I am thinking to make an RT (if exists) default and then lowlatency with generic being the backup. On second thought... I will make the order lowlatency, generic and then RT
<Eickmeyer> Careful with that. We don't want to implicitly support an RT kernel if we don't provide one.
<OvenWerks> I think lowlatency should be default because that is what we support as default. Then generic as the other one ubuntu suports
<OvenWerks> if there is no RT kernel it will not show up in the menu
<Eickmeyer> I understand, but by putting it in the code, that implies that we support it.
<OvenWerks> Well, thats easy, I won't add it for now, I don't have it anyway, so I don't have an itch to scratch in that direction...
<Eickmeyer> :)
<Eickmeyer> Other than that, yes. lowlatency by default, generic second if it's available.
 * OvenWerks doesn't knpow why he bothered explaining...
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: The "Why would I need low latency" thing made me cringe, tbh.
<OvenWerks> I think what is latency was the real question
<Eickmeyer> Well, they were being really stubborn and, quite frankly, rude.
<OvenWerks> That was part of the reason I didn't say much till late in the conversation  ;)
<OvenWerks> On the other hand, it does point out the need for a per audio device set up... I don't know if we will get there this cycle or even next.
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: my work on a grub module is 19.10 only. I am seeing that 10_linux has changed somewhat since I first created 09_lowlatency. So the 19.10 version will be based on the changes.
<OvenWerks> I will keep a diff to see if we can run that against new versions of grub as they show up.
<OvenWerks> I am wondering if this may have anything to do with differences in performance from 16.* to 19.*
<Eickmeyer> Very, very p;ossible
#ubuntustudio-devel 2019-07-12
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: The Papirus team made custom icons for Carla, Carla Controls, and Ubuntu Studio Controls.
<OvenWerks> cool
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: how is you sh/bash fu?
<Eickmeyer> Not sure about how I feel about the Ubuntu Studio Controls one, since it's just the CoF.
<Eickmeyer> Define sh/bash fu (I feel like I'm novice, but I'm probably better than I think I am).
<OvenWerks> I have a line:
<OvenWerks> while [ "x$list $list2" != "x" ] ; do
<Eickmeyer> Eek... seems a little clumsy if you're doing a while...do.
<Eickmeyer> Unfortunately, that's a bit over my head. :/
<OvenWerks> I am thinking that $list and $list2 are evaluated when that line is run the first time. so if I then make list="$list $list2" that should not affect that line's work.
<Eickmeyer> teward: Can we pick your brain? ^
<OvenWerks> I think I have my answer...
<Eickmeyer> Oh?
<OvenWerks> a few lines down they redo list
<OvenWerks> They remove the part of the list they have already dealt with
<Eickmeyer> Oh, okay.
<OvenWerks> so, if I combine list and list2, I have to make list2=""
<Eickmeyer> That makes sense, therefore removing items from the list as it progresses.
<OvenWerks> Basically, list is the list of *lowlatency and list2 is the list of *generic kernels
<OvenWerks> So I want to make sure there is still some kernel to add to the list
<Eickmeyer> Ok, I get it now.
<Eickmeyer> Had no idea what you were trying to accomplish until I got the context. :P
<OvenWerks> But after I have done the first two entries I then want to combine the lists for the submenu.
<OvenWerks> Basically, if there is only a generic kernel I still have to have a default selection
<Eickmeyer> Right.
<teward> Eickmeyer: still need to pick my brain?
<teward> sorry i missed the highlight (@teward001 so it shows up always on my telegram pings too btw)
<Eickmeyer> teward: Nah, OvenWerks figured it out.
<teward> OK
<teward> i pay attention to my telegram pings more than my IRC pings heh
<Eickmeyer> No worries.
<teward> right now I need the SRU team to let a no-changes rebuild through to bionic-proposed for NGINX :p
<teward> for OpenSSL 1.1.1 stuff
<Eickmeyer> Oh, fun. :P
<teward> well thankfully it's a no-brainer since there's no changes, we just need to queue a rebuild xD
<Eickmeyer> Oh, that's good.
<Eickmeyer> Triggering no-changes rebuilds. Fun.
<teward> yep.  nginx inherits whatever OpenSSL is available to it, in this case it was built on 1.1.0 so it needs to rebuild for some TLS 1.3 fun
<teward> but no changes in NGINX, just needs to get OPenSSL 1.1.1 libs for its build :P
<Eickmeyer> And, of course, then the pain of getting something simple like that through an SRU. :P
<teward> pain for you maybe
<teward> but the OPenSSL SRU was already done :p
<teward> this is just one of fifty things that still need a rebuild :P
<Eickmeyer> Joy. /s
#ubuntustudio-devel 2019-07-13
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: is your bios efi?
<Eickmeyer[m]> Yes
<OvenWerks> and the grub menu still puts the lowlatency kernel separate?
 * OvenWerks guesses yes
<Eickmeyer[m]> Yes
#ubuntustudio-devel 2019-07-14
<OvenWerks> Well, thats about the wierdest thing I ever had...
<OvenWerks> My mouse just stopped working (cheap logitech thing) like really stopped, the LED went out the whole works.
<OvenWerks> I grabbed another old (switches bouncy as they come) and plugged that in and continued as I could.
<OvenWerks> After a few minutes I chanced to look over at the better mouse and noticed the red LED was on again.
<OvenWerks> pulled the plug on the old jucky mouse and went back to using the normal mouse.
<OvenWerks> In all that I did not unplug or otherwise reset the mouse that had turned off.
<OvenWerks> The normal mouse is plugged into the back of the computer and hard to get at.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2020-07-07
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: FYI, Ardour 6.1 tagged... from some of the conversation, 6.2 may be earlier than expected. So not sure it is a great idea to pull in 6.1.
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: -controls has moved a pace. 
<OvenWerks> my old AudioPCI card has an AudioPCI,1,0 which zita-ajbidge can not open though I think jack can (could before).
<OvenWerks> This may have been part of what I was seeing the other day. but there were other things too (now fixed) that were git master specific.
<OvenWerks> so not in release. PCH,1,0 (playback) and PCH,2,0 (capture) do both work as extra devices and more cleanly than before.
<OvenWerks> Headphones is part way there.
<OvenWerks> if jackmaster is HDA and head phones get plugged into, head phones will switch when plugged in.
<OvenWerks> and back when unplugged.
<OvenWerks> alsa mixer will still switch even if not jackmaster... at least if PCH is called the headphone device. If another device is called the headphone device (like USB) then the usb un/plug event will be used to switch... but this requires more code to move the connections from jack master to PH device. I guess I should keep track of these connections because if the device is pulled the ports may 
<OvenWerks> vanish before I get a chance to move them.
<OvenWerks> I have already added a jack client to autojack and will be working on this next.
<OvenWerks> The code I have now for making connections from devices to pulse bridges will be moved from external calls to this client as well.
<OvenWerks> This will also allow something like use a usb device and decide to be quiet... plug HP into computer, noise from usb device goes away to headphones in PCH device... are we having fun yet?
<OvenWerks> I will say this is farther than I ever expected autojack to go when I whipped up a quick bash script to set up the usb device for my wife's computer.
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: in other news, I DL AVLinux and ran live. It says it supports the echofire 12... so someone has gotten it to work. mine doesn't. The only thing I haven't tried at this point is a new cable... so I have prdered another one (9 pin to 6pin instead of 6 to 6). This is my last stab at things fw unless someone comes along with lots of time to try things for me or who has one already 
<OvenWerks> running.
<OvenWerks> I may try installing AVL to see installed makes any difference.
<OvenWerks> I don't like it so much in my tests. but lots of people do use it so it is at least something to go by.
<OvenWerks> I think ubuntustudio is still better.
<OvenWerks> Anyway, good night
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: Sorry for the radio silence, just read through all of this. Good progress!
<Eickmeyer> RE: AVL: If there's one thing that it has that we don't is an RT kernel. That said, Holstein and I tend to agree that RT kernels aren't the fix-all that people think they are. 
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: no RT kernals are not a fix.
<OvenWerks> generally it starts with getting lucky with hardware
<OvenWerks> it seems ardour 6.1 is tagged but not released ;)
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: I have found the reason I can not use zita-ajbridge with the AudioPCI,1,0 device. I thought I would try alsa_out and it failed too. However, it at least told me why it could not open the device. It seems that while AudioPCI,0,0 will open fine at 48000, AudioPCI,1,0 is 44100 only.
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: because the card is as old as it is... pre AC97 even. there is no easy way for me to find that out. USB has a stream file and HDA has a Codec file which give the allowable rates.
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: jack doesn't care, jack opens the device at whatever rate it is running at even if it fails to set the rate.
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: Interesting.
<OvenWerks> Looking at the alsaaudio module for python... it can try to set rate and fail but does not seem to have a way of querying availabale rates
<Eickmeyer> So, that means it figures it out by trial and error and probably goes toward the lowest SR, right?
<OvenWerks> I think the python alsa module just fails if you ask for the wrong SR just like zita or alsa_out
<Eickmeyer> Fun.
<OvenWerks> I think I might write a quick script just to test it. There is a command alsaaudio.pcms([type=PCM_PLAYBACK])
<OvenWerks> with the description: "List available PCM devices by name."
<OvenWerks> but looking at the c code it looks like it does a lot more.
<Eickmeyer> Nice. That might help.
<OvenWerks> Nope, I would have to write something in c. There alsapcm_setup works like: snd_pcm_hw_params_set_rate_near() then: snd_pcm_hw_params_get_rate()
<Eickmeyer> Oh, fun. :P
<OvenWerks> but that is not available in the python bit I think.
<OvenWerks> And besides I don't really want to actually open the device.
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: What I can do: I can set rate in python, check: /proc/asound/<device>/<subdev>/hw_params for rate:
<Eickmeyer> In theory that should work. Nice.
<OvenWerks> I think it will actually be better than trying to find the right file for the device type to parse
<OvenWerks> So for this device, 48000 gives a rate of 5512 and 44100 gives a rate of 44100
<OvenWerks> What is interesting is that sub 0 and sub 1 giv e two different results as if they have two different clocks
<OvenWerks> rate is specified like: rate: 44100 (44100/1) with the first number bing what it is set for and the second being actual
<OvenWerks> that is sub 1, sub 0 is: rate: 44100 (1411200/32)
<OvenWerks> and even worse: rate: 48000 (1411200/29)
<OvenWerks> Maybe that is how the clock gets it... so 48k is actually: 48662.068 and 44k1 is right on. Interesting.
<Eickmeyer> Very interesting. Seems like an arbitrary sample rate for 48k for that device.
<OvenWerks> try to get close I guess
<Eickmeyer> It's clear that it's made specifically for 44.1k.
<OvenWerks> yes
<OvenWerks> I think AudioPCI,1,0 is a digital out (spdif-ish
<Eickmeyer> My audio interface is capable of 192k, but I don't know why I'd ever run it that high unless I were recording bats.
<OvenWerks> The main device does 32k but the sub1 doesn't
<OvenWerks> So try to set the device to jack-rate if it fails, try one step up if 44k1 down if 48k then try 96k then try 32k... then give up :)
<OvenWerks> (some webcam devices are 32k)
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: my opinion is that if we are already going through an SRC stage (zita) then any possible gain from 96k or up is lost anyway.
<Eickmeyer> I know someone who swears by 96k. I told him that he must have supersonic hearing then.
<OvenWerks> The problem is that there are some devices that are 96k only (A&H new 32 channel mixer for example)
<Eickmeyer> Yep, some Roland mixers do 96k. I mean, I get it as far as sample rate, but you're never going to be able to hear what that is capable of sampling.
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: there are some (poorly made) plugins that do benefit from a higher sample rate... properly made ones will upsample inside instead
<Eickmeyer> Which makes sense.
<OvenWerks> digital mixers use 96k for latency in snakes... and in the case of A&H because they use all int math (so also 48 bit or more bit depth)
<Eickmeyer> Ok, maybe that's why 96k sounds better in live venue settings.
<OvenWerks> It just works better with the DSP chips they use... no real cpu ecept for control
<OvenWerks> Also no discounting the Sales PR it gives  ;)
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: is there a place where you keep depends for studio-controls?
<OvenWerks> we will need to add python3-alsaaudio
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: is python3-alsaaudio in the repos?
<Eickmeyer> It is. Not hard to add that as a dep. Just make sure it's documented somewhere.
<Eickmeyer> Already exists in Fedora as well, so looks like we've mostly got our bases covered.
<OvenWerks> mention it in the changelog?
<Eickmeyer> Sure.
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: mcpdisp in the NEW queue.
<OvenWerks> cool
#ubuntustudio-devel 2020-07-08
<OvenWerks> ACK! output is an input...
<Eickmeyer> Oh no....
<OvenWerks> just a thinko
<OvenWerks> when getting jack output ports (like playback) have to think of then as inputs
<OvenWerks> (when searching for *:playback* ports)
<Eickmeyer> I see.
 * Eickmeyer will be out most of today
<studiobot> <teward001> so you won't be bothering the archive admins then xD
<studiobot> <teward001> :P
<studiobot> <Eickmeyer> Uh, I can still give them a ping.
<studiobot> <Eickmeyer> @teward001 Unneeded ping my left deformed foot. :P
<studiobot> <teward001> *drops an anvil on your foot*
<studiobot> <Eickmeyer> Joke's on you, my foot is too small for your anvil to land on.
<OvenWerks> cool, Jack master is M66, plug in headphones (PCH) Headphones get un muted and vol up, everything tied to system:playback_1/2 gets switched to PCH,0,0-out:playback_1/2
<Eickmeyer> \o/
<OvenWerks> Ok, designate a USB device as headphone device, on plugging in that device, output audio is switched over or back.
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer or teward: If one of my options is running a user provided script for our python script, am I better using shell=True or adding /bin/bash as part of the command line?
<teward> shell=True should work assuming it has the shebang in the beginning pointing at Bash
<teward> unless you can execute it without issue with shell=False
<teward> there's a lot more security issues with shell=True because it is literally running in a shell
<OvenWerks> ya, I know, but if I am running a shell script I have to provide a shell somehow
<OvenWerks>  I don't know if there is a prefered way
<OvenWerks> I would prefer that the environment is not passed to it for example.
<studiobot> <teward001> @OvenWerks then run it without shell=True, to start
<studiobot> <teward001> you can also specify an env for it - like env vars, etc.
<studiobot> <teward001> either way it's run as a subshell outside of Python so
<OvenWerks> yeah, it is there as an option for users who have a situation we haven't thought of when a status change happens
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: https://discourse.ardour.org/t/ardour-6-2-is-released/104385
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: Wow, that was quick. I'm sure someone will pick it up in Debian since we're back to auto sync there.
<OvenWerks> good
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: I am replacing all the jack_(dis)connect sys calls with jack client calls from within controls/autojack. That means no disk access for those operations.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2020-07-09
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: Cool!
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: I have one problem... I can detect when HP are plugged in, but not if they are plugged in at startup
<studiobot> <teward001> here's a question: is there even a mechanism that could be used to DETERMINE if it's plugged in or not at startup
<studiobot> <teward001> because I know there's system-level detect triggers for "new device plugged in" during initial handshakes to make it work
<studiobot> <teward001> but not sure if there's an exposed flag or such to that end that indicates 'connected' at boot, at least at a way you'd be able to do it easily
<studiobot> <teward001> 'course you guys know more about it than I do :)
<studiobot> <teward001> *lurks more*
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: I am also wondering if I should monitor anything that gets connected to the speaker output and auto reconnect that to the hp device (if they differ)
<OvenWerks> teward: yeah, I can find a one line difference in /proc/asound/PCH/codec#0.
<OvenWerks> The only problem is if it is there in the same place on all (or even most) systems
<Eickmeyer> @teward001: Yeah, HP = headphones, and that gets reported by the hardware weirdly.
<OvenWerks> so Control: name="Front Playback Switch" has Pin-ctls: 0x00: that changed depending on plugged...
<OvenWerks> but: Control: name="Headphone Playback Switch" does not change :P
<studiobot> <teward001> Eickmeyer: yep, it does ð
<studiobot> <teward001> 'course... depending on the headphones, mine're USB-C and probably aren't going to get reported right anyways XD
<studiobot> <teward001> *shot*
<OvenWerks> Actually, I can deal with USB headphones
<Eickmeyer> @teward001: It's been something we've been working on for quite some time. Users are reporting difficulty when they have Jack running and want to use their headphones: nothing is switching it.
<Eickmeyer> @teward001: USB headphones are easier to deal with.
<OvenWerks> if the device exists... usb headphones are in :)
#ubuntustudio-devel 2020-07-11
 * OvenWerks has a firewire device
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer[m]: I just got another FW cable delivered... and right from the get go, a2jmidid was showing the midi from my audiofire 12.
<OvenWerks> \o/
<OvenWerks> So alsa shows this as an alsa device but shows no controls... which is a problem because it's last use was with sync set to wordclock
<OvenWerks> ffado mixer does show all the controls (It appears the alsa team just didn't bother to roll this part into the alsa drivers)
<OvenWerks> however, it will not allow me _set_ anything :P
<Eickmeyer[m]> OvenWerks: YAY! aw....
<OvenWerks> It's all good. It means at least I have something to work with. It means that if I get another motherboard in a few years an I can't get a pci adapter to wor with my D66, I have another option. It means I can get rid of the AudioPCI if there in only one PCI slot.
<OvenWerks> but make supper for my son and I first I think. (I will also finish the stuff I am doing with -controls)
<Eickmeyer[m]> Cool!
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer[m]: I have made a Master output ports variable so that when switching to/from headphones it switches the right ports if the user is using spdif out (system:playback_9/10  or 11/12 on some systems)
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer[m]: question, should autojack look for applications connecting to sytem:playback_1/2 and auto move them to those master ports?
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer[m]: firewire seems to be easy.
<OvenWerks> I added a file like: https://paste.ubuntu.com/p/Wdmvg4zJxv/ called blacklist-studio.conf to /etc/modprobe.d/
<OvenWerks> then rebooted.
<OvenWerks> after reboot FFADO mixer gave me full access and I could change sync to internal
<Eickmeyer[m]> Oh sweet! Maybe we can about-face and support Firewire then.
<OvenWerks> I think so.
<OvenWerks> The port names are odd... firewire_pcm:0014860268b568f1_Unknown_in
<Eickmeyer[m]> Nice. Great work!
<OvenWerks> firewire_pcm:0014860268b568f1_Unknown0_in
<OvenWerks> But I think now that I have changed the sync to internal, I could go back to the alsa modules.
<OvenWerks> then the port names would make sense
<OvenWerks> I think my mixer controls (aside from sync and sr) would still work too.
<Eickmeyer[m]> That's really cool.
<OvenWerks> qjackctl has given me hints for the commands to give... no device name, 3 periods
<Eickmeyer[m]> Well, if it works it works.
<OvenWerks> I will add a switch to -controls->system tab to switch between alsa and ffado
<Eickmeyer[m]> Perfect. :)
<OvenWerks> with a warning that a reboot is required
<Eickmeyer[m]> Even better.
<OvenWerks> I have felt bad to remove FW from the start.... I am using even older hardware after all.
<OvenWerks> with my next mother board I may be forced to move to firewire.
<Eickmeyer[m]> Yikes. PCIe audio interfaces are expensive.
<OvenWerks> PCIe firewire interfaces are not bad though :)
<OvenWerks> the fw interface I paid the shipping
<OvenWerks> gn
 * OvenWerks notes that the pages at: https://www.alsa-project.org/wiki/Main_Page are sadly out of date.
<OvenWerks> While it is true that the ALSA API has not changed much if at all, the list of devices, articles etc. is of no use unless someone actually has one of the listed devices.
<OvenWerks> There are many broken links, some of the articles are 20 years old...
<OvenWerks> The jack FW backend is backwards to ALSA. The FW backend show the raw device instead of the system:type_number alias
<OvenWerks> but those are there too.
<OvenWerks> I think the reason for this is that with firewire, more than one device can show up and will automatically all be connected. (if they are not synced there will be xruns) Also, it seems jack FW will pass on device portnames.
<OvenWerks> so if the device calls a port mic2 that will show up and another port might be line_in
<OvenWerks> However it means for at least some things I will have to look up port aliases... and soon maybe "pretty names" as well.
