#ubuntustudio-devel 2010-08-23
<quadrispro> hi all
<falktx> hi
<quadrispro> falktx, http://bugs.debian.org/593985, http://bugs.debian.org/594075, http://bugs.debian.org/594041
<quadrispro> falktx, NASPRO is pending
<falktx> quadrispro: cool
<falktx> quadrispro: did you got it working ?
<falktx> eheh, I package it for my ppa without really knowing how to make it work...
<quadrispro> yep
<quadrispro> it's really cool
<quadrispro> I touched upstream, too
<quadrispro> he's italian
<falktx> quadrispro: it bridges dssi-lv2 or what?
<quadrispro> no, yes it does too
<quadrispro> naspro-bridges-bad
<falktx> quadrispro: did they make any tutorial/explanation/doc on how to make it work ?
<quadrispro> regarding bridges I can't find anything at the moment
<quadrispro> but naspro-core provides a bunch of interesting examples
<falktx> that's the problem...
<quadrispro> http://git.debian.org/?p=pkg-multimedia/naspro-core.git
<falktx> the code is there, we just don't know how to use it
<quadrispro> naspro-core gives some good stuff
<falktx> I never coded a plugin
<scott-work> it looks like gnome-network-admin has a fix to allow configuration of connections :)
<falktx> scott-work: will you use it or change to nm-applet ?
<scott-work> falktx: probably stay with gnome-admin since it uses less resources
<falktx> scott-work: oh, ok
<scott-work> falktx: do you think we should swtich to nm-applet?
<falktx> scott-work: not sure... depends on who will use it
<falktx> scott-work: i think the dvd should at least contain it, for those who will prefer to install it
<scott-work> falktx: it still does contain nm-applet and network-manager as well
<falktx> scott-work: ok, that's cool 
#ubuntustudio-devel 2010-08-24
<scott-work> super sweet...guitarix is now is debian :)
<falktx> hm guitarix wasn't on debian until now ?
<scott-work> i think just recently actually
<scott-work> it should have synced to ubuntu at the beginning of maverick
<scott-work> according to the debian changelog it was july 26 when it was introduced to debian
<falktx> i hope to get festige there soon
 * falktx -> home
<scott-work> i hope they get ladish into debian
<scott-work> but i don't know if they will according some of the emails on the debian multimedia mailing list
<scott-work> i think there may be licensing issues, but maybe i'm confusing this with something else
<ckontros> ScottL: Around?
<scott-work> ckontros: yes?
<ckontros> scott-work: PM me when you get home. Whenever.
<scott-work> ckontros: will do
#ubuntustudio-devel 2010-08-26
<falktx> i'm doing some experiments right now
<falktx> what do you guys think about an ubuntustudio live dvd ?
<falktx> (2.6.33-rt kernel)
<holstein> falktx: i failed building a few
<holstein> i have a friend in town here
<falktx> holstein: i just make a testing kxstudio build now
<holstein> he said he would help me
<holstein> we just havent had time to get together
<falktx> holstein: bad thing my laptop... cant boot USBs...!
<falktx> i made a 64bit iso and now I can't test it
 * falktx needs to buy a dvd-rw
<holstein> yeah
<holstein> i got a light-scribe external one
<holstein> handy
<holstein> hey guys
<holstein> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/tasksel/+bug/562706
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 562706 in tasksel (Ubuntu) "On i386, selecting the ubuntu studio packages fails to install" [Critical,New]
<holstein> this *has* been fixed, correct?
<holstein> i'll mark it so...
<persia> has it?
 * persia knows GrueMaster is currently around, so may be able to replicate on whatever hardware was used, or share more information.
<holstein> persia: i was assuming this it the installer bug
<holstein> if you select a certain pacakge the installer fails
<holstein> i bet i can find that one
<holstein> and mark it a duplicate
<holstein> at least
<persia> Oh, maybe.  But the installer team hates it when folks merge bugs, because lots of times very similar things are different bugs (there are a lot of little sneaky bugs in the installer)
<holstein> OK
<holstein> i'll just email the list with a link
<holstein> and let the chips fall where they may
<persia> I'd just catch GrueMaster in #ubuntu-bugs, and ask if he can still replicate it, and close it if he can't.
<holstein> hell
<holstein> i can replicate it
<holstein> i havent chosen any of those packages at install in years ;)
<persia> So the default tasks for studio break?  We probably ought change the task to not include them.
<holstein> sure
<holstein> whatever it takes
<holstein> last time i brought it up in here
<holstein> it seemed like a well known issue
<holstein> and a fix was in place for maverick
<persia> Do the packages only not install in tasksel, or do they also not install with apt-get install?
<persia> Well, maverick is what needs testing now.
<holstein> after the install of the OS
<holstein> everything seems fine
<holstein> i did test it with an early maverick
<holstein> and it was still doing it
<holstein> but since then, i had mentioned it in here
<persia> Oh, if it was broken, and now works, then it's probably fixed.
 * persia apologises for the noise, and shuts up until common understandings are absorbed through idling a bit more
<holstein> persia: nah
<holstein> im glad your here :)
<holstein> i havent had a successful test of it functioning as it should
<holstein> yet
<holstein> so its really more of a question
<holstein> if its fixed in maverick
<holstein> we can mark that bug accordingly though
<falktx> last time I tried, the ubuntustudio installer complained about not finding the kernel
<persia> Really?  That shouldn't happen.
<falktx> that was some weeks ago though, in virtualbox
<persia> even so, but sometimes the dailies are unstable.
<holstein> falktx: maverick?
<holstein> OH yeah
<holstein> daily issue probably
<holstein> persia: i think we should have a live disc
<holstein> i went on about it in bugs just now ;)
<persia> I saw.
<persia> The fear has always been that the latency is so bad that audio folk will say US isn't any good.
<persia> But talk to ScottL
<holstein> did you ever check out the old dyne-bolic?
<persia> Yep.
<holstein> i was always surprised at the performance from it running live
<holstein> i know we arent going to get that kind of performance
<persia> Certainly not.  they stripped that down quite a bit to achieve that, and the software was all less bloated back then.
<falktx> holstein: yes
<holstein> hggdh: hey
<hggdh> cheers
<falktx> we could have a dialog pop-ing up in the live dvd, saying like: "this will get slow, install to get full-speed"
<holstein> is there a dev mailing list?
<persia> Yep.
 * holstein found it
<persia> https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/Ubuntu-Studio-devel
<troy_s> crimsun_: If you are around, I'd love to hear your thoughts on ratelimit.c supressed events and the correlation with a stuttery laggy system during those log postings.
<troy_s> crimsun_: I don't think it is a culprit (although likely gets blamed) but certainly correlates with log outputs on supressed events... perhaps because of some other lag up?
<scott-work> hi holstein , persia , troy_s  :)
<holstein> scott-work: :)
<troy_s> scott-work: Greets. How goes it.
<scott-work> troy_s: 'tis okay, but work is making me slightly insane :/   grrrrrrrr
<troy_s> scott-work: I believe that is the second Universal Truth(TM). It is slightly less well-known than it's brother... ;)
<scott-work> troy_s:  i'm beginning to wonder if all the improvements we make at work to help people isn't causing them to be lazy and stupid
 * scott-work realizes that is a slightly pessimestic viewpoint
<troy_s> scott-work: Is it lazy or busy? Most people are busy trying to do other things.
<troy_s> (Which has a side tangent about bug reporting in Libre. It's goofy to assume that someone is going to put down _work_ and set aside _what they are doing_ to report a bug. Goofy. Stupid. Ridiculous. It is a problem that needs a well designed solution.)
<scott-work> troy_s:  the more we make standardized drawings and designs the more simply studid and inattentive mistakes seemed to be made
<scott-work> interestingly we have a bug report system also called Action Items
<scott-work> since i'm in charge of the detailing department (and to a lesser degree the engineering department as a whole) I get to answer these
<troy_s> scott-work: Personally "Bug Report Systems" should be an anachronism.
<scott-work> LOL  i mispelled stupid earlier....is that meta-stupidity?
<troy_s> Hyperreality perhaps.
<scott-work> persia: as far as the live disc, i talked to luke about it as well, he seemed to think it would present some obstacles from a ISO building aspect
<scott-work> not that it couldn't be done but that it might be putting additional work load on other peoples
<scott-work> falktx builds his images himself, possibly with remastersys or something similar i believe
<scott-work> holstein might be in a better position to explain how falktx builds his ISOs though than i
<holstein> im taking it on as a learing project
<holstein> so theres going to be an ubuntustudio live CD
<holstein> and i'll put it up somewhere
<holstein> and i'll be able to link to it in the support channel
<holstein> scott-work: if you dont want to have it officially integrated, thats cool
<holstein> i just know there is a need for it where i am
<holstein> in the irc channel
<holstein> so i dont have to say 'just blow out a partition, install, and some back in a couple hours, and we'll see if that device works for you'
<holstein> OR suggest other live distros
<scott-work> holstein:  i'm not really terribly adverse to it as i've mentioned before...i think it's a great PR aspect
<holstein> cool
<holstein> i want to know how to make iso's anyways
<scott-work> but i'd rather focus first on tightening up the distro first
<scott-work> as i mentioned to you before as well ;)
<holstein> yeah
<holstein> then you guys can do your thing
<holstein> and the live disc is a community project
<holstein> i totally dont want to pull any resources away to make it happen
<scott-work> that would be sweet actually
<scott-work> abogani: are you around?
<persia> scott-work, Building a LiveCD only requires additional work from other folks if we don't have someone doing it.  Needs work in casper, ubiquity, livecd-rootfs, ubuntu-cdimage.  At least casper and ubiquity are fairly fast-moving targets: I know they consume about 50% of one of the Kubuntu folk.
<persia> If there's a volunteer who's sufficiently dedicated, that becomes manageable.
<persia> Oh, also requires slightly more than twice as much work from the testers.
<scott-work> persia: and luke also mentioned that it would requires more time and load on the ISO building machines, i don't have a framework to quantify this though
<persia> It does: and nobody except the cdimage folk can quantify that.  That said, we can always ask about space there: if we're serving a sufficient number of users, there may be space.
<troy_s> persia: Some issues there - not the least of which is quantifying "sufficient number". Posting on touch points (Forums, UbuntuStudio.org, etc.) would probably be a good bit of research. Of course, people that answer polls tend to be of archetypes that answer polls so your data is biased out of the gate. Alas, that's the realm of sociologists.
<persia> Since there are know sociologists among the cdimage folk, it tends to be based on having a sufficient subset of user who volunteer to take care of testing agressively :)
 * scott-work is going home...yay!
<troy_s> persia: Not so much the testing, but whether there are numbers to support it. I sincerely doubt, given the current state of uS, that there are.
<troy_s> persia: I'd be most interested in some actual quantifiable bits of data regarding how many installs there are at the moment anyways. And within that, how many are just hobby installations and how many are people trying to create something.
<troy_s> persia: As there is a huge gap there. If I had to wager 99% of most installations of _Desktop Linux_ are hobby / in-passing / non primary. 
<troy_s> (Or at least a ridiculously high value there)
<persia> I'd agree that 99% of folks installing fall into that category, but I know folks that do >5000 installs daily, and I know that's not for hobby purposes.
<persia> So I have no idea of the percentage in terms of number of users.
<persia> Err, number of installs.
<holstein> persia: im into learning and being that person
<persia> OK.  You probably want to idle in #ubuntu-install, and start investigating the casper and ubiquity codebases.
<persia> There should be a process to request stuff sanely by the time you get comfortable there.
<persia> Given beta freeze, it's unlikely anything official can happen before natty opens, but you can at least start playing around with the code, and seeing how it works.
<holstein> persia: i just want to do one for the LTS really
<holstein> but id like to learn
<persia> No chance of that, officially.
<holstein> true
<persia> But if you get one working in natty, you can then refine it so it's not unpleasant to use for natty+1, and probably have something in good shape for the next LTS.
<holstein> that works
<holstein> is it #ubuntu-install?
<holstein> persia: i'll find it
 * holstein gotta go to dinner
<holstein> thanks
<persia> #ubuntu-inseraller
<persia> Err, #ubuntu-installer
<persia> Sorry
<holstein> persia: AH
<holstein> im there now
<persia> Yeah.  Time for food :)
#ubuntustudio-devel 2010-08-27
<troy_s> persia: Surely you jest. At >5000 daily you are ... well ... it must be in the realm of hyperbole.
<troy_s> persia: That's uh... well... the math doesn't work.
<persia> troy_s, That's the bottom-end number for a single factory line running for 8 hours.
<persia> Mind you, it's not every day, but it's not uncommon.
<persia> Last time I was contracted to an OEM to work on a preinstall device, the first month's run was 40,000 units (just over a week's output for a line).  I wasn't renewed, so don't know numbers for follow-up months.
<troy_s> persia: And those are all Ubuntu Studio installs?
<persia> No, _Desktop Linux_ installations
<persia> Far as I know, nobody is selling preinstalled Ubuntu Studio in volume (although some folks are selling it piecemeal)
<persia> (and nobody is going to run a factory line if they aren't selling something)
<troy_s> persia: But those aren't done by a live CD for the love of all things good.
<persia> Well, hacked, but kinda.
 * persia tries to find the code Dell instructs their factories to use, which uses an LiveCD as input
<troy_s> persia: Which brings us back to the value and need for the Live disk. I would bet the need is less than 0.1% of current users, and current users is... well... let's say low. ;)
<persia> http://en.community.dell.com/support-forums/software-os/w/linux/building-base-ubuntu-factory-iso.aspx
<persia> troy_s, I agree.  That said, I believe that if someone (e.g. holstein) wants to spend several hours a week working on it, I have no business telling them not to do so unless it actively disrupts something I'm doing.  In the worst case, it motivates the person doing the work to also fix related bugs (which affect users in more interesting ways)
<troy_s> persia: Yes. Agree.
<troy_s> persia: It is hard to deduce value in any component given the fact that no one really uses the bits.
<persia> I know a fair number of people who use the bits in the repos.  I'm less confident about the number of users who use the install images.
<troy_s> persia: The problem that I'd think most have (in my case especially) is that the actual useful bits are horrifically out of date with the nature of the development speed. FFMPEG for example. This greatly reduces the actual 'real-world' usage of the various PPAs.
<troy_s> persia: uS might do well to adopt a more bleeding edge GIT / SVN daily / weekly repository script setup to bring value to those that need the bits.
<persia> My mother would disagree with that.  She doesn't like change.
<troy_s> persia: uS isn't for your mother likely.
<persia> Funny.  She uses it daily.
<troy_s> persia: Although with the clear lack of audience, it is difficult to tell exactly what it is for.
<troy_s> persia: What does your mother use it for?
<troy_s> persia: (It is also why I suggested perhaps daily / weekly flavours. I know that I'd happily hope on a PPA system if it were available)
<persia> Recording, songwriting, preparing stuff for students, email, browsing, minor accounting, mastering.
<persia> That mostly requires someone motivated to keep that up to date (and with the time to do so)
<persia> If someone did that, getting stuff into Ubuntu Studio for the 6-monthly cycle would likely be smoother.
<troy_s> persia: Some of those components must be somewhat scriptable no?
<troy_s> persia: Like some of the other daily / nightly builds on Launchpad?
<persia> Indeed, and there's a few scripts about that do it.  I think fta has the most mature ones.  Still, he spends nearly 3 hours a day just watching *one* package to have dailies available.
<persia> (including support, bug tracking, upstream coordination, etc.)
<troy_s> persia: Brutal.
<troy_s> persia: There has got to be a better way.
<persia> Not really.  If you build it, they will come.  If you don't have a plan to receive them, there will be fires and riots.
<ScottL> lol
<troy_s> persia: That's not really true actually.
<troy_s> persia: PT was a little off course.
<troy_s> persia: ;)
<troy_s> persia: If you build it you can struggle like mad to have it built and then watch nothing happen.
<troy_s> persia: Case in point, watch blog stats. ;)
 * persia would claim you failed to build the right thing in that case :)
<troy_s> LOL
<troy_s> That's a cheat.
<persia> But, yeah, in the case where nobody uses the dailies, they are easy to support, but one then as to ask: what's the point?
<troy_s> Avoiding the breakage in "Build it and they will come" and marking it as "Works as expected. Won't Fix"
<persia> If folks use them, they become harder to support, etc.
<persia> that's not quite in the spirit of the CoC: something about respecting others.
<persia> If folks want unsuppported stuff, they ought pull upstream directly.
<troy_s> persia: It just takes me to the usefulness of the various bits. I know that for example, I might be someone that could long shot be interested in using uS, but I wouldn't because of the nature of Ubuntu's packages.
<troy_s> persia: Just way too damn old.
<persia> I guess.  Speaking for myself, I don't care about the age, so long as they work.
<persia> I can wait a few months for them to work better.
<ScottL> persia, what kind of music does your mother make?  which applications does she use?  is she using jack?
<persia> Yes (she's an ethnomusicology consultant), mostly hydrogen/muse/qsynth, yes.
<persia> (well, and openoffice and firefox, but we don't maintain those)
 * abogani waves
<abogani> ScottL: I am here now.
<scott-work> abogani: good morning
<abogani> scott-work, To you.
<scott-work> abogani: are you working with the UKT to get the -rt kernel into maverick?
 * scott-work doesn't think that it's morning in Italy though ;)
<abogani> scott-work, You are thinking well ;)
<scott-work> after talking to Jfo i got the impression that they were expecting you (or as it was referred to as "community") to provide the 2.6.35 (?) -rt kernel
<scott-work> i'm presuming the 2.6.35 kernel is in maverick, i don't recall at the moment
<persia> It is
<scott-work> Jfo even mentioned that the kernel team was probably going to consider the -preempt or -latency kernels because they felt that they would be duplication of work considering the inclusion of the -rt kernel
<scott-work> ARGH
<scott-work> probably NOT going to consider
<scott-work> my impression from Jfo was that they felt the -generic and -rt kernels would cover all use cases
 * scott-work is not sure he agress with that logic though
<abogani> scott-work: I maintained and offered via kernel.ubuntu.com and PPA -lowlatency kernel. If they don't want accept it I can't really do more.
<persia> They do, but if they want to rely on -rt, they need to be more inclusive of abogani 
<scott-work> persia: that would my concern as well and i voiced that to Jfo (who is really only a messenger in most of our conversations)
<persia> Right.
<persia> abogani, What are you doing the last week of October?
<abogani> scott-work: The -rt/-realtime stick on .33. Non one in the world have an more recent version of it.
<scott-work> abogani: according to Jfo it would seem that the UKT would like (and is expecting) the -rt kernel from you
<persia> Can't, but -lowlatency is possible.
<abogani> persia: Sorry?
<scott-work> are we saying that there isn't an upstream -rt patch for 2.6.33 ?
<persia> abogani, If you're free the last week of October, maybe it would help to meet UKT people in person.
<abogani> scott-work: Which exactly the version they expect? 2.6.35?
<persia> scott-work, Rather there isn't an upstream -rt patch for 2.6.35 : only for .33
 * scott-work apologizes, hasn't really kept up with which kernel versions has -rt patches available
<scott-work> argh, yes, and .35 is going into maverick, right
<abogani> scott-work: I made -lowlatency for two reasons:
<scott-work> well, then i expect more conversation with Jfo and UKT is in order
<persia> Indeed.
<abogani> 1) It is simple to keep in sync with -generic and a lor of people are happy with -generic
<persia> scott-work, I'd suggest talking to smb and ogarasawa about it.  smb has previously expressed interest in -rt, and ogarasawa is managing the mainline kernel sequencing this release cycle.
 * abogani give up
<scott-work> persia: i shall then, i have already pinged Jfo in #ubuntu-community-team but will move onto #ubuntu-kernel then and see if i can talk to them, i've been warned that they are sometimes slow to come up out of code
<scott-work> abogani: please don't do that, we will get this sorted
<scott-work> i would like to believe that if we talk to a few select, directly responsible people then we can clear any confusion up, establish clear expectations, and develop a framework in which to achieve those expectations :)
<abogani> scott-work: Really I *can't* do different. I sold all my computers and my car and now I have a little job for three months (after that probably I'll return unemployed). Moreover I don't want explain to UKT *every time* how -rt releases works. I'm really exhausted.
<persia> -lowlatency is probably a better target for the meantime.
<persia> -rt is just too hard without stronger support from upstream.
<scott-work> abogani: would it be possible to attend UDS in October ? (i realize you said you had 3 months of work)
<scott-work> you could talk directly to the kernel team and the face to face communication would probably clear up a lot of problems ;)
<abogani> scott-work: I don't be able to speak English so well. :-)
<scott-work> abogani: i would expect that sponsorship might be worked out to get you there
<scott-work> abogani: bah,  i think your english is better than a metric tonne of American's IMO
<abogani> scott-work: Write and speak are very different things.
<scott-work> and it's not like there will not be many, many non-native English speaking people there as well
<abogani> persia, for example. :-)
<scott-work> wait, i said that last sentence wrong...LOL i used too many double negatives and confused myself
<scott-work> there will be many people there who are not native Englishy speakers as well :-)
<abogani> Ahhh
<scott-work> abogani: please really consider it
<scott-work> i don't think the UKT has us in their minds as a first priority and tend to forget what we have discussed previously
<scott-work> i think it will take persistance and perserverance with them to get ubuntu studio into their collective conciousness and psyche
<scott-work> and that might take a trip to UDS and presenting ourselves to their faces in person
<scott-work> if the -rt kernel isn't the way to go because of the fickle nature of upstream then we should dicsuss it with them once and for all
<scott-work> and decided a CONSISTENT direction forward for both  the UKT and ubuntu studio
<scott-work> if the -rt isn't going to be always available then we go -lowlatency then all the time and make UKT understand how important it is and why
<scott-work> but if we can establish it then we can move forward without all this mucking about ...hopefully :)
<scott-work> (of course we can always offer -rt kernel in PPA when it is available though)
<scott-work> but anyway, consider UDS this October... as i said, i imagine we could secure sponsorship for you
<scott-work> abogani: ^^^ last sentence is important
<abogani> scott-work: I'll help in any way I'll can but my "energy" is almost run out.
<scott-work> i can only imagine your frustration and weariness of trying to maintain a kernel for ubuntu studio abogani 
<scott-work> from my short experience with the team i witnessed some of it and i expect that it certainly has been happened well before i came here
<scott-work> s/happened/happening
<scott-work> does that mean you'll go to UDS? :)
<abogani> scott-work: Sorry I don't know. :-( I would prefer that Ubuntu Studio project find a replace for me.
<scott-work> abogani:  i understand if you feel that you don't have the energy to keep doing this (i think you've been doing this for almost four years?) but i don't think anyone is available to replace you anyways
<falktx> abogani: what kinda problems the rt kernel has?
<falktx> abogani: the proprietary driver compilation and what else?
<abogani> falktx: It isn't aligned with Maverick -generic.
<falktx> abogani: ah, so fixes won't come as usual, right?
<abogani> falktx: -rt is died, at least on official archives.
<falktx> abogani: that's sad...
<falktx> abogani: anyway, thanks for your work on this
<astraljava> abogani: That's interesting, as not many days ago there was a kernel team member here talking about interest towards -rt.
<astraljava> Haven't followed the discussion though, so it might not have happened after all.
<abogani> astraljava: :-)
<astraljava> Jeremy something, nick JFo.
<astraljava> jeremy@ubuntu.com
<scott-work> holstein says his name is jeremy foshee
<holstein> https://launchpad.net/~jeremyfoshee
#ubuntustudio-devel 2011-08-22
<ScottL> *sigh* it's deja-vu all over again
<ScottL> W: Failed to fetch file:/srv/cdimage.ubuntu.com/ftp-universe/dists/oneiric/main/binary-amd64/Packages.bz2  Hash Sum mismatch
<ScottL> no ISO's this weekend :(
<falktx_> ScottL: what's that error all about?
<ScottL> astraljava, i'm going to make a few changes myself to the seeds, hopefully tonight, rather than suffer you with it
<ScottL> falktx_, apparently its the syncing of packages
<ScottL> my (bad) understanding that packages are being updated but not synced fast enough and we end up with hash sum mismatches
<ScottL> cjwatson said that when they get new hardware this shouldn't be a probelm
<falktx_> damn
<ScottL> i am positing that the changes are happening faster than the current hardware can sync given the comments i've heard (including one of yours)
<falktx_> I have no idea whatsoever about how these things work :(
<ScottL> perhaps during a less busy cycle this would not be as bad as they appear
<falktx_> ScottL: I think the feature freeze is in now, right?
<ScottL> !calender
<ScottL> !calendar
<ubottu> calendar is at http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event
<holstein> lol
<ScottL> forget that one
<ScottL> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/OneiricReleaseSchedule
<holstein> ubottu is a dork
<ubottu> holstein: I am only a bot, please don't think I'm intelligent :)
<holstein> oh... dont you worry ;)
<ScottL> LOL
<ScottL> i wish i remembered how to set it to recognize calendar correctly
<falktx_> haha
<falktx_> ScottL: i think the ubuntu feature freeze is now in place, so there should not be too many package updates now
<falktx_> it's the right time for US fixing I guess
<falktx_> ScottL: btw, what to do with all the artwork in the wiki?
<ScottL> which artwork do you mean?
<ScottL> falktx_, ^^^
<falktx_> ScottL: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/Artwork/
<falktx_> there is some pretty cool stuff in there
<ScottL> to be honest and direct, probably nothing right now
<ScottL> cory isn't active and no one else really knows about packaging artwork at this point
<ScottL> unless you want to help
<falktx_> I wish I could put some use to that artwork...
<ScottL> you can
<ScottL> also considering that we can't get an image to test i'm not sure where we will stand
<falktx_> ScottL: can we just add new wallpapers?
<ScottL> falktx_, i would say that we could
<ScottL> i would prefer something not so busy as we have had since hardy
<ScottL> falktx_, my favorite (but it's not *quite* exactly what i want) is the first on one the oneiric link
<falktx_> has US changed his logo to the new font?
<ScottL> yes
<ScottL> look at the bottom of the oneiric link
<falktx_> ScottL: this one - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/Artwork/OfficialOneiric?action=AttachFile&do=get&target=ubuntustudio_v3_logo.svg
<falktx_> ?
<falktx_> I guess yes
<falktx_> ScottL: have you considered changing the theme?
<falktx_> afaik, gtk3 apps will be a problem
 * falktx_ hopes qtcurve gets gtk3 support soon
<ScottL> falktx_, yes, i believe that is the one we are going to use
 * ScottL is sorry to be in and out of the conversation, but is at home by himself with the kids
 * ScottL also likes to talk about himself in the third person ;)
<ScottL> falktx_, i would like to change the theme...very badly, but again, i don't know how at this time and don't have time to learn how
<falktx> sorry my network stopped
<falktx> stopped after 'ScottL: have you considered changing the theme?'
<ScottL> <ScottL> falktx_, yes, i believe that is the one we are going to use
<ScottL> * ScottL is sorry to be in and out of the conversation, but is at home by himself with the kids
<ScottL> * ScottL also likes to talk about himself in the third person ;)
<ScottL> <ScottL> falktx_, i would like to change the theme...very badly, but again, i don't know how at this time and don't have time to learn how
<ScottL> * falktx_ has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
<ScottL> that's what i said :)
<falktx> ScottL: I guess the focus now is to get a working image, all the rest comes afterwards
<falktx> my work for the PPAs will really help US this time, I have some cool plans...
<falktx> I'm just sad I don't know how the US processing really works
<ScottL> falktx, i have been told that it wasn't quite the lethargic in the past
<ScottL> apparently it was very robust during the beginning
<scott-work> *sigh* no image built today :(
<holstein> we dont need one ;)
<holstein> "we've already got one... its very nice"
<falktx> holstein: who said thatÂ»
<falktx> ?
<holstein> falktx: i was trying something from monty python
<holstein> "we seek the grail"
<holstein> "we've already got one... its very nice!"
<falktx> ok
<holstein> falktx: we do need an image :/
<holstein> well, at some point we doo
<scott-work> hahah, just saw this :)
<astraljava> Hey folks, sorry I've been AFK (well not really, but from hobbies.) Gimme another hour, and I'll start hacking.
<astraljava> Almost two hours, but what the heck. Sat down now.
<astraljava> No disks for two days, damn.
<astraljava> Xubuntu, on the other hand, does have an alternate for today.
<astraljava> But I didn't see a healthy check for neither yesterday nor today. Damn.
<scott-work> i'm feeling frustrated
<ailo> scott-work, You need to de-frust
<astraljava> So, it's not a direct dependency that's pulling gnome-session in, that apparently pulls unity in.
<scott-work> ailo: lol
<scott-work> like, i should be 'grunted' rather that disgrunted?  ;)
<astraljava> Damn, network-manager-gnome pulls in libgtk-3-0
<falktx> astraljava: I think gtk3 is ok
 * falktx updates to check out this issue
<falktx> btw, I'm running oneiric now, so I can dig this too
<scott-work> charlie-tca: what does xubuntu use for network manager?
<scott-work> falktx: that would be very helpful :)
<scott-work> astraljava:  if  netowrk-manager causes problems maybe we use whatever charlie-tca is using for xubuntu
<charlie-tca> network-manager
<charlie-tca> It mostly works. What about wicd?
<falktx> charlie-tca: xfce uses gnome network-manager?
<charlie-tca> yup
<charlie-tca> I show 'network-manager' and 'network-manager-gnome'
<falktx> I guess wicd would be an option here
<charlie-tca> I think Xfce recommends them too
 * astraljava grumbles
<astraljava> IT's all alacarte's fault.
<falktx> scott-work: unity is probably pushed by a recommends, not a real dependency
<astraljava> It brings in gnome-panel, which brings in gnome-session, which brings in unity.
<falktx> ah, astraljava, right
 * astraljava grumbles again
<scott-work> i'm not even sure what alacarte is used for 
<scott-work> ah, menu editing
<scott-work> maybe we pull alacarte for now and see if we can work a solution
<astraljava> Yeah I'm definitely taking it off.
<falktx> hm, nm-gnome does not push gnome-panel
<astraljava> But I'm gonna read up on germinate output for other unneeded stuff, the .iso is HUUUUUUUGE
<falktx> scott-work: alacarte doesn't seem to be the problem either
 * falktx installs US metas
<astraljava> Yeah, I suppose network manager is alright, xubuntu seems to have it too.
<astraljava> falktx: I just checked from germinate output.
<charlie-tca> You have to pull alacarte with a --no-recommends to not get most of gnome with it
<astraljava> charlie-tca: Is that what you're doing?
<charlie-tca> We don't install alacarte by default
<astraljava> Okay, then I seem to have left it by accident.
<astraljava> germinate seems to take recommends to the images nowadays.
<falktx> astraljava: it is the default since karmic
<charlie-tca> We just tell the users:
<charlie-tca> For Xfce 4.8, 'sudo apt-get install alacarte --no-install-recommends' in a terminal will let you use an editor to change the menus.
<falktx> charlie-tca: so the problem is "gnome-menus" pushed by alacarte
 * falktx is still installing the metas
<charlie-tca> right
<charlie-tca> and debian won't change that, either
<astraljava> Judging from: gnome-panel                            | gnome-panel                    | alacarte (Recommends)
<charlie-tca> It is considered a "gnome-menu"  editor
<scott-work> which since we are ubuntu xfce we don't really need ;)
<falktx> but how xfce does this then?
<astraljava> Ex-friggin'-actly.
<falktx> it has alacarte in there
<charlie-tca> They are just a desktop environment, so they don't have to worry about throwing things together to fit the users needs so much.
<falktx> oh, I see lighdm being pushed, is that what US will use?
<astraljava> falktx: Yep.
<astraljava> We just don't have a theme for that, yet. *grin*
<falktx> charlie-tca: yes, but using alacarte should push unity, or am I missing something?
<falktx> hm, I can hack a theme
<charlie-tca> no, it will push gnome3 instead, I think
<astraljava> falktx: That's what I just tried to explain.
<falktx> astraljava: but are you sure it's alacarte?
<astraljava> alacarte -> gnome-panel -> gnome-session -> unity
<falktx> other packages could be pushing gnome3 too
<falktx> I see a lot of stuff that we don't need in the metas... :(
<astraljava> Yeah, that's why I'm combing the germinate logs to make sure it doesn't happen from any other direction.
<falktx> astraljava: gnome-bluetooth should be removed
<astraljava> scott-work: Agree?
<falktx> hm, he's probably busy
<scott-work> falktx: astraljava :  agreed
<scott-work> i had that on a far range culling of the seeds
<astraljava> Okay, taken.
<astraljava> But that was already taken. So something else pulls it in.
<falktx> hm, ubuntustudio-recording depends on audacious, why?
<astraljava> Xubuntu-dev meeting, bbl.
<astraljava> Ha. Looks like we're going by the default lightdm greeter theme.
<astraljava> UI freeze this Thursday.
 * astraljava is so sorry
<falktx_> thursday?
<astraljava> The day that comes after Wednesday.
<astraljava> *grin*
<falktx_> beh, still enough time!
<falktx_> astraljava: which is the default US wallpaper right now?
<astraljava> If you're an excellent artist, knowing how that works, then by all means, have at it, please. :)
<astraljava> falktx_: I'm not knowledgeable about the artwork at all.
<falktx_> hm, there's a qt greeter in there...
<falktx_> scott-work: ?
<falktx_> hm, I need some starting theme
<scott-work> falktx_: i'm not sure i understand your question
<scott-work> are you asking if a qt greeter can be removed?
<charlie-tca> lightdm-gtk-greeter is working now, and looks not too bad
<falktx_> scott-work: I'm asking what is the current default wallpaper
<scott-work> falktx_: it's the same as we had for natty right now
<scott-work> astraljava: falktx_ : do either one of you know if we have lightdm in the image right now?
<falktx_> scott-work: it's pushed by *-desktop
<falktx_> astraljava: creating a lightdm theme seems easy
<falktx_> not sure how to change themes though
<scott-work> falktx_: you could see what xubuntu is doing, i'm okay with leaving default for now though
<astraljava> falktx_: We'd need to nail the configuration in (probably) less than three days, too, so..
<scott-work> falktx_: but thank you for knowing that and telling me :)
<astraljava> scott-work: Thanks! :)
<falktx_> I'm using the mythbuntu lightdm theme as base, seems easy
<falktx_> scott-work: astraljava: default US font?
<astraljava> falktx_: madnick over on #xubuntu-dev has worked on it for quite some while, to get it look cool. I'm not sure we can do that in a few days, but if we can, then yeah, let's get it on. It's not like it'll cost us anything.
<falktx_> astraljava: I'm sure I can do this in a matter of minutes now
<falktx_> I just need to know the details
<falktx_> scott-work: astraljava: should guest logins be enabled?
<scott-work> falktx_: i think default us font is fine....wait, you mean the old font or the new font?
<falktx_> scott-work: new font, the default on desktop
<astraljava> falktx_: No, none at all. That's a huge pain in the 4$$.
<scott-work> falktx_: astraljava: i don't think guest shoudl be enabled myself
<astraljava> scott-work: Whole-heartedly concur.
<scott-work> i should say that i think all this hacking is cool :)  sadly i'm not directly participating :(
<scott-work> i still want to update the language packs tonight
<falktx_> damn, I can't remember the default wallpaper
<astraljava> scott-work: Oh but you are, by voicing opinions (which we interpret as orders) :D
<falktx_> is it the mixing table photo?
<scott-work> falktx_: is the weird six sided extruded polygons...i'll see if i can find a pictures on google
<scott-work> http://screenshots.debian.net/thumbnail-with-version//ubuntustudio-wallpapers/0.40
<scott-work> it's small but that's it
<falktx_> scott-work: thanks
<scott-work> http://www.linoob.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/Ubuntu-Studio-Gnome-Desktop-1024x576.png
<scott-work> bigger one
<falktx_> it's ok
<falktx_> scott-work: but the default font?
<scott-work> i would actually prefer a very simple, uncluttered desktop
<scott-work> the ones we have used are pretty but not very functional IMO
<scott-work> !artwork
<ubottu> Find your themes at: http://www.gnome-look.org - http://art.gnome.org - http://www.kde-look.org - http://kubuntu-art.org - http://themes.freshmeat.net/browse/58/ - http://www.guistyles.com - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/ - Also see !changethemes and https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuEyeCandy
<scott-work> bah
<scott-work> i like the first image on this page:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/Artwork/OfficialOneiric
<scott-work> move the logo to the bottom right out of the way and maybe fade it a bit and that would be better IMO
<scott-work> that is NOT an order, just an opinion
<astraljava> Heh, one other thing. Do we have a plymouth theme? I guess we do, as plymouth was already used in natty, right?
<falktx_> astraljava: yes
<astraljava> *phew*
 * astraljava has totally dropped the ball
<astraljava> *frown*
<scott-work> ach, webchat froze right after i said to please disagree :/
<falktx_> astraljava: US is not in such bad state!
<scott-work> i thought hte channel had gone strangely quiet ;)
<astraljava> scott-work: :D
<astraljava> scott-work: Sounds good to me.
<astraljava> But I'm not really graphical person.
<falktx_> ok, ready to test!
<scott-work> even if it is in a bad state, i think we have a much clearer path to make it better since we identified an audience we want to address
<falktx_> time to test the lightdm theme!
<scott-work> cool :)
<astraljava> charlie-tca> UI freeze is at August 25, 2011 at 21:00 UTC
<astraljava> So, yeah. Three full days.
<astraljava> Ahh... sorry, two full days. "Last minute updates should be done 1 full day earlier"
<scott-work> astraljava: i caution everyone again, given our currest status and that we serve a niche audience, we probably have some latitude
<scott-work> that is not meant to imply we should do nothing until after the UI freeze, mind you ;)
<astraljava> Sure, sure. :)
<falktx> damn it,
<falktx> it's not picking up the us theme
<falktx> nor any other theme at all
<falktx> I have no idea how lightdm works :(
<falktx_> sorry, bad network
<scott-work> falktx:  does the default theme work?
<falktx_> I was saying
<falktx_> the theme installs, but I can't get lightdm to change themes
<falktx_> I have no idea how lightdm works, but there's no proper docs out there too :(
<astraljava> falktx_: I'll try to have the xubuntu guys here soon, hopefully even after the meeting. Stay put, if you can.
<falktx_> how do I change the lightdm theme?
<falktx_> ok
 * falktx_ asks in #ubuntu-devel
<falktx_> damn, how is that such simple thing is not documented?
<falktx_> finally!
<scott-work> did it work or did someone tell you how to do it?
<falktx_> scott-work: I got it working
<scott-work> sweet :)
<charlie-tca> it's all changed so much so fast, the docs are way behind
<falktx_> haha
<falktx_> http://kxstudio.sourceforge.net/tmp/scr023.png
<falktx_> scott-work: astraljava: charlie-tca ^
<scott-work> falktx_: you continually amaze me :)
<astraljava> AAAAWWWWEEEESSSSOOOOMMMMMEEEE!!
<falktx_> scott-work: it seems to be using gtk3, so the theme doesn't catch up?
<astraljava> Now to package it, then file a FFe.
<falktx_> we'll still need a way to set the default greeter method to gtk
<falktx_> ubuntu sets it to unity
<astraljava> Yeah, true.
<scott-work> i have code to set GDM to gnome 'classic', i wonder if that will still work
<scott-work> might also look at the xubuntu code as well (that's where i stole it from)
<charlie-tca> w00t! looking good
<falktx_> packaging here - kxstudio.sourceforge.net/tmp/ubuntustudio-lightdm-theme_0.1.tar.gz
<falktx_> oops
<falktx_> http://kxstudio.sourceforge.net/tmp/ubuntustudio-lightdm-theme_0.1.tar.gz
<falktx_> astraljava: it's almost ready (YES!), just tweak where needed
<falktx_> scott-work: please take a note of this:
<astraljava> falktx_: Excellent! Well done!
<falktx_> we need to change a value in this file - /etc/lightdm/lightdm.conf
<falktx_> greeter-session=lightdm-gtk-greeter
<falktx_> and it will work
<falktx_> astraljava: thanks, I'm just trying to help ;)
<scott-work> falktx_:  do we need to add the /etc/lightdm/lightdm.conf to the ubuntustudio-default-settings package?
<astraljava> falktx_: Not necessarily, there's a way for derivatives to do this without touching the original.
<falktx_> don't ask me how it's done
<astraljava> But hopefully we have the xubuntu guys explain it how it's done.
<falktx_> astraljava: the package comes from mythbuntu-light-theme, so I assume it works fine
<astraljava> Oh okay, cool.
<astraljava> falktx_: Can you push that to LP as a code tree? You're currently in studio~dev, right?
<falktx_> astraljava: I prefer to leave that to you
<falktx_> I have plenty of stuff to do now
<astraljava> falktx_: Sure, that's fine.
<falktx_> I'm happy I contributed something
 * astraljava is happy too :)
<falktx_> astraljava: you probably know it better than me
<astraljava> I bet you've done a lot more packages then me. :)
<falktx_> astraljava: my work is more about backports and re-using/fixing stuff, not much as creating packages from scratch
<astraljava> Sure, sure.
<falktx_> heck, I don't agree with the debian rules at all...
<astraljava> falktx_: The meeting is about to end. Do we need the guys here now?
<falktx_> too many stuff, gets complicated
<astraljava> Yeah, but it does have advantages, ultimately.
<falktx_> astraljava: maybe to know how to set gtk greeter as default
<astraljava> Okay, I'll ask if they have time.
<astraljava> falktx_: Are you in a hurry? madnick needs to take care of something, before he wishes to join here. But can come briefly, if it's really urgent.
<falktx_> astraljava: no prob
<astraljava> Cool, thanks!
<falktx_> I can watch another episode of leverage
<falktx_> hehe
<astraljava> Hehe, coolness. :D
<scott-work> ah falktx left, i was going to tell him i am happy he is contributing to this too
<astraljava> He should be around soon enough.
<astraljava> falktx: madnick: Hey there, so how about that lightdm, then?
<astraljava> Do we need to change a value in file /etc/lightdm/lightdm.conf?
<falktx> afaik, we need to change the greeter engine from [default] unity to gtk
<astraljava> IIRC, xubuntu had some tweak for that, so that derivates don't need to patch/update that file directly.
<madnick> Yes
<madnick> You change the seat-defaults
 * astraljava hasn't yet had time to read the backscroll when this was discussed over on #xubuntu-devel
<astraljava> falktx: Does that mean anything to you?
<madnick> Well, I am not sure what you guys are wondering :) But http://people.ubuntu.com/~robert-ancell/lightdm/reference/ and the gtk-example-greeter provides alot of insight into greeter development :)
<madnick> http://www.madnick.se/~madnick/xubuntu/xubuntu-greeter-draft8.png
<madnick> What I've done, is integerated a html renderer, in it, to render the UI
<astraljava> Oh cool.
<falktx_> sorry, my network is having issues
<scott-work> madnick: i think the goal is to make sure that the lightdm session is set to xubuntu directly after the initial installation for the default user
<scott-work> we did soemthing similar with GDM last cycle to use the 'gnome classic' session rather than unity
<madnick> I have not looked into anything like that, Im just the code monkey :) you may want to ask mr_pouit, he has made that utility :)
<astraljava> Right, okay. :)
<scott-work> madnick: have you hear the jonathan coulton song "code monkey"?  http://www.jonathancoulton.com/2006/04/14/thing-a-week-29-code-monkey/
<madnick> yes :)
<madnick> Infact I never heard the expression before I heard that song :P
<astraljava> Well, hopefully we can now work on that issue with these instructions. Thanks, madnick, for sharing!
<astraljava> I don't wanna stress you more, seeing as you're swamped already. :)
<astraljava> But feel free to hang around.
<astraljava> There's good people in here. :)
<scott-upstairs> astraljava, i'm am making changes to the 'ship' seed to adjust the language packs
<scott-upstairs> i'm tired of the 400+ lines of "unknown ship package" from the build logs
<scott-upstairs> see for reference:  http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-archive/cd-build-logs/ubuntustudio/oneiric/daily-20110527.log
<scott-upstairs> lol, was looking for some notes and ran across this:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/Sandbox
<scott-upstairs> i forgot how decent i made this part of the wiki look ;)
<scott-upstairs> falktx_, okay, my notes to add ladish, gladish, and laditools
<scott-upstairs> any objections, corrections, suggestions?
<falktx_> scott-upstairs: hm, gladish is enough
<scott-upstairs> really? will it pull in the others?
<falktx_> gladish depends on ladish, and recommends laditools
<falktx_> yes
<scott-upstairs> rightyo
<falktx_> scott-upstairs: "keep it simple"
<scott-upstairs> hmm, how do you write that?  righty-o
<scott-upstairs> right-y-o
<scott-upstairs> ?
<scott-upstairs> don't know
<falktx_> don't ask me
<falktx_> I usually just say 'yep'
<falktx_> yep
<scott-upstairs> i think it's righty-o
<scott-upstairs> yep
<scott-upstairs> sounds like hank hill from that cartoon show
<scott-upstairs> oi, and that jack pulse bridge thiingie
<falktx_> pulseaudio-module-jack
<scott-upstairs> pulseaudio....yeah, that one
<scott-upstairs> the only problem i had with this is this....
<scott-upstairs> i got decent latency with onboard sound card
<scott-upstairs> i got very good latency with delta44
<scott-upstairs> when i added the pa-jack module onboard was practically unusable via jack but delta44 remained pretty good
<scott-upstairs> are we sure we want to add this?
<scott-upstairs> falktx_, any plugins you recommend to be added?
<falktx_> scott-upstairs: adding that won't do anything
<falktx_> scott-upstairs: only when the user activates it via special commands, it will work
<scott-upstairs> ah, okay...what's the command?  i made it work before
<falktx_> for any other things, it won't affect jack at all
<falktx_> pactl ... whatever
<falktx_> I just use my pulse-jack script for this
<scott-upstairs> i think i used instructions from david h. in an email
<scott-upstairs> okay, done
<scott-upstairs> pushing to bzr
 * falktx_ is making launchpad slow with all his uploads
<madnick>  /names
<madnick> sorry
<falktx_> lol
<scott-upstairs> changes pushed, yay!  time to celebrate with dinner
<falktx_> yep
<falktx_> time to eat something
<scott-upstairs> adding stuff to the seeds is much more fun when others are around hacking together ;)
#ubuntustudio-devel 2011-08-23
<ScottL> no image again to day :(
<astraljava> Ahh... yeah, due to imsomnia for the past 6 months, I'm now finally beginning to fall asleep. So much so, that I fell asleep with my laptop still in my hands last night. Thus I didn't get to push the seed changes, nor notify Luke for uploading them. I'll get to that tonight, so we should have images tomorrow. Sorry about that.
<astraljava> &win 21
<astraljava> Nice.
<astraljava> Levi always switches the key layout to US.
<charlie-tca> no images again. errors appear to be server side errors
<charlie-tca> asking in -release to have it checked out
<charlie-tca> cjwatson is investigating now. He did kick another spin though
<charlie-tca> If the images fail to build, and the errors are what is in today's log at 
<charlie-tca> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-archive/cd-build-logs/ubuntustudio/oneiric/daily-20110823.log
<charlie-tca> the main errors being 
<charlie-tca> W: Failed to fetch file:/srv/cdimage.ubuntu.com/ftp-universe/dists/oneiric/main/binary-amd64/Packages.bz2  Hash Sum mismatch
<charlie-tca> E: Some index files failed to download, they have been ignored, or old ones used instead.
<charlie-tca> make: *** [apt-update] Error 100
<charlie-tca> notify #ubuntu-release to kick another build. 
<charlie-tca> scott-work: cjwatson moved the build of ubuntustudio by 12 hours in hopes of making it work better.
<astraljava> charlie-tca: Oh! that means it's gonna be rolled in a couple of hours, then?
<charlie-tca> They are out already
<charlie-tca> Got images for today, 23.1
<astraljava> Hmm, I seem to recall that they are built at around 10 UTC. Maybe my recollection fails.
<charlie-tca> but now the build will spin 12 hours from where it was, to try and avoid the build errors. 
<charlie-tca> If they were building around 10 AM, it will move to 10 PM
<charlie-tca> It seems kind of drastic to me, but if gets the images to build... 
<astraljava> Yeah okay. So the next build is in a little bit more than 24 hours from now.
<astraljava> It doesn't really matter in the long run.
<astraljava> As long as people know when it happens, they can time their uploads (unless falling asleep while preparing the uploads, like in my case)
<charlie-tca> right
<charlie-tca> It might build new ones tonight, in about 5 hours
<charlie-tca> but anyway, at least you got images now
<falktx> hm, nice, are they installable?
<charlie-tca> You have to sync again for today, since the first set failed again. Hopefully, you start getting them everyday again
<astraljava> Yeah, but it's without the changes we needed. And I'm not sure whether I am finished with work in time, and whether there's anyone pushing the seeds in case i am.
<charlie-tca> I don't know about installable, my thought was no images means you can't even find out
<astraljava> Exactly.
<falktx> hm, oneiric is failing to download updated packages, anyone has this issue?
 * falktx wonders if archive.ubuntu.com is down
<charlie-tca> That one seems to be hit and miss. Maybe the archives are updating right now?
<falktx> probably, but it never happened to me like this
<charlie-tca> They pushed a new kernel yesterday, did it break everything again?
<charlie-tca> checking updates; I use the us.archive.ubuntu.com
<scott-work> charlie-tca: is he permantly setting the studio build to later?  might his fix the continuing problem of the failed builds?
<charlie-tca> yes, permantly. He is hoping it will fix the problem
<charlie-tca> me too hoping. I keep bugging him to get them built again, and it really is a server problem
<falktx> hm, ubuntu repo seems good again
<falktx> weird
<charlie-tca> Yup, you hit during an update then
<falktx> hehe, later
<scott-work> he left already, but i'll have to thank charlie about this
<astraljava> I think the newly-found cooperation with the xubuntu guys is already paying the overhead off thousandfold, no?
<scott-work> haha, yeah!
<scott-work> astraljava: did you see my comments last night about changing/pushing to the seeds?
<scott-work> i added gladish, removed lashd, added some plugins, added pulseaudio-module-jack
<astraljava> Sadly, I haven't yet had time to read the backscroll. I thought I'd get out of work early today, but still here I am, stumbling around in the dark.
<scott-work> after talking with a few people i think i will also add swh-ladspa back into the audio-plugins
<astraljava> Oh good! Did you touch the desktop seed?
<scott-work> i had removed it when i added swh-lv2 but apparetnly it's not a feature parity between then
<scott-work> astraljava: no, i did not touch desktop seeds
<astraljava> Okay cool, saves me from merging.
<scott-work> i did, however, forget to make changes to the fonts seeds which i should do tonight
<scott-work> good :)
<scott-work> we work good together, without any coordination we managed to not step on each other's toes :)
<scott-work> i had a good conversation in google chat last night with cory about the direction of ubuntu studio
<astraljava> Right on. :) Yeah, I'll try to come up with an updated desktop tonight BEFORE I'll fall asleep again, but I'm afraid it won't hit the delayed image spin.
<scott-work> i'm laying out my thoughts on choosing newbies as our audience and he plays the devil's advocate
<scott-work> ;)
<astraljava> Yeah, well it wouldn't have been a big issue, I'd just have had to make a three-way merge, that's all.
<astraljava> Hahah. :)
<scott-work> he's not being bad or a downer, he's actually being very constructive and helping me really think this through and make sure it's the right thing :)
<astraljava> Well, that's good to hear.
<scott-work> i've completed a few things and very shortly i should write an email, probably back to cory's email, about the direction we are taking
<scott-work> probably should also post it in the ubuntu forums
<astraljava> Has he made that wiki page he promised?
<astraljava> I have seen no mention of it since.
<astraljava> Okay, I'm home now, so gonna walk the dog, eat some, and then roll the sleeves.
<scott-work> sorry astraljava, webchat froze up on me, don't know how long it had been before i realized it, i'll check the log to make sure i read everything
<scott-work> cory has made a wiki page for his ideas but i don't know that he has added to it much
<scott-work> found the page:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/NewStudio
<scott-work> we have an image now :)
<scott-work> http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/ubuntustudio/daily/20110823.2/
<astraljava> Okay, but that still won't do. The desktop seed hasn't been updated.
<astraljava> I ran out of time.
<charlie-tca> That one might be the new time for it. being .2, that is the second set for today, so expect a new image about the same time tomorrow
<astraljava> Isn't that the third? Without the dot and a number is the first, .1 being the second etc.
<charlie-tca> right, which is what makes me think that is the cron job that was reset today
<charlie-tca> Kind of a strange time to kick it, but if it works, it will be okay, after today.
<scott-work> sorry, was just pointing out that it seemed to work at this time of day
<charlie-tca> That was the logic used to move it, too. something about parallel builds?
<charlie-tca> and updating main and universe at the wrong times
<charlie-tca> At least we got the images :)
<scott-work> charlie-tca: absolutely!
#ubuntustudio-devel 2011-08-24
<ScottL> astraljava, i have done my (additional) changes, do you have any more before we ask luke to germinate?
<falktx> hehe, funny word, germinate
<astraljava> ScottL: I need to do some mods, so I can ask Luke when I'm done.
<astraljava> #"Â£$!â°@ can't get my schroot to work!
<charlie-tca> sory
<charlie-tca> I am still hoping for the images to work today... 
<falktx> even if the images don't build, I'll create an ubuntustudio live dvd
<charlie-tca> I didn't know you get live dvd's. I thought studio was alternate installer only?
<falktx> yes
<falktx> charlie-tca: I'm just saying, I can make a custom live-dvd, personal build
<falktx> not official
<charlie-tca> very nice!
<astraljava> Well wasn't that a struggle.
<astraljava> TheMuso: I don't suppose you have time to push our seeds so that the image spin gets it?
<astraljava> I'll ask on #ubuntu-release just in case.
<charlie-tca> oh, I don't know how the seeds get updated, but the change in times for the builds shouldn't affect the seeds
<astraljava> It doesn't, but seeing that the images are likely to be built soon-ish, I'd want the seeds to be uploaded so that we could in fact see an up-to-date image even tonight.
<charlie-tca> I guess that is an advantage
<scott-work> astraljava: you might even ask cjwaton, i think he's done that before for us to fix stuff that he was working on
<astraljava> scott-work: Good point, I'll hilight him just in case. Hope he won't get annoyed, though.
<charlie-tca> and the new time worked! ubuntustudio has a new image
<falktx> nice!
<falktx> haha, http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/ubuntustudio/daily/current/
<falktx> 24-Aug-2011 18:45
<falktx> no kde dependencies
<falktx> unity is still being pushed though
<astraljava> Yep, my commit hit LP a minute before the images were created. So they're effective tomorrow.
<falktx> oh, no worries, if it's tomorrow
<falktx> astraljava: so alacarte is gone?
<astraljava> I did remove it, yes.
<scott-work> falktx: how did you determine no KDE deps?
<falktx> scott-work: no kde packages on the list of files
<falktx> not even kdelibs
<scott-work> right, okay, that's the way i check, i was hoping you knew a better way ;)
<scott-work> astraljava: so we believe that removing alacarte will prevent a long line of deps that result with unity on the image?
<falktx> scott-work: i believe other packages will push unity too
<falktx> not just alacarte
<scott-work> but we removed enough packages for tomorrows image that we feel will not ship unity?
<astraljava> From the looks of it, it seemed that way. Unity (and gnome-session) brought a shitload of stuff with them, so I'm actually expecting to see a lot smaller .iso tomorrow.
<astraljava> But since I haven't had time to re-create the simulation (read: germinate) locally, I cannot be certain.
<scott-work> roger that
<scott-work> the image today does seem to be about 0.3G bigger than natty
<astraljava> Indeed. 2GB is getting a little bit out of hand, even though we're not counting.
<astraljava> But granted, everything bloats all the time.
<astraljava> Do we care?
<scott-work> I'm am less worried about any arbitrary size rather than the incremental delta.
<astraljava> I read that as "ever-growing image." So you're not worried about the numbers, but rather that we're bloating all the time. Am I even close?
<ScottL> i think that is a good way to summarize how i view the size
<ScottL> i don't think there is a "perfect" number or size for the iso, but i think i would worry if we increased 0.3GB every cycle
#ubuntustudio-devel 2011-08-25
<ScottL> we had a bad thunderstorm come through and lost power for several hours
<holstein> ScottL: :/
<scott-work> astraljava: did you get all your changes made and luke update the metas?
<scott-work> i ask because there was _one_ package that i realized i wanted to add yesterday and wasn't able to last night because of power outages due to weather
<falktx> ubuntu is entering beta
<falktx> I saw some package changes to reflect it (string changes)
<wisevoyager> U means beta 11.10?
<falktx> yes
<astraljava> scott-work: cjwatson uploaded the seeds, but they missed yesteday's images. Should be in today's, but I haven't had time to check up on them yet. I'll do that in an hour or so.
<astraljava> Images failed to build due to some weird debootstrap error. Asked on -release, hopefully someone can explain what's it about.
<astraljava> As suspected, archive inconsistencies. Should work on tomorrow's build.
<Kokito> howdy my US friends
<astraljava> grr
<astraljava> scott-work: What was that package that you mentioned? I made some changes to desktop, but can include others since we have plenty of time to get the seeds uploaded before the next image spin.
<scott-work> astraljava: let me find the exact package name
<scott-work> astraljava: it's zita-at1
<scott-work> it should go into the audio-plugins seeds
<scott-work> it will be okay if we dont' get it in but it would be really nice ship
<Kokito> hey scott-work 
<scott-work> hi Kokito :)
<scott-work> how are you doing?
<astraljava> scott-work: Done.
<scott-work> astraljava: capital!  :)
<Kokito> still adapting, but doing well scott-work , and you?
<scott-work> Kokito: i suppose okay, work is getting busy, but there's been some changes in ubuntu studio
<scott-work> for the good i should add
<scott-work> Kokito:  an event happened that pushed several of us to greatly articulate what we feel the audience and goals should be for ubuntu studio
<scott-work> which had actaully been lacking
<Kokito> that's cool/ is that some kind of focus shift? or just an articulation?
<scott-work> i would say a little of both
<scott-work> i think some thought we served a different audience
<scott-work> also, no one had clearly articulated it before
<scott-work> we have now
<scott-work> i hope to do so on the mailing list as well this weekend
<scott-work> rolling out and heading home
<astraljava> Don't think I'm seeing the same results on a local germinate run when compared to buildd. So, just gotta keep experimenting later on. But meanwhile, TheMuso, could you please upload our seeds again for Friday's (26th) images? Thanks!
#ubuntustudio-devel 2011-08-26
<holstein> this came in on the xubuntu list
<holstein> I'm an avid user of Ubuntu Studio, however customized to run with Xubuntu desktop.
<holstein> Is there a xubuntu-studio in the works?  I'd be very interested in this, including participating the packaging, developement, and testing.  I already have a working prototype :P
<ScottL> yay!  send him an email to join the channel :)
<holstein> ScottL: i replied... we'll see
<ailo> holstein, I hear it's becoming windy around your parts
<holstein> ailo: nah
<holstein> not yet
<holstein> im really far from the coast though
<holstein> like 9 hours from there by car
<ailo> Just read about this girl Irene on the news
<ScottL> i really hope we get an image to test tomorrow
<falktx_> I'm all about to create a new ubuntu bug -> "Unity is too buggy to use"
<falktx_> :)
<falktx_> but I guess I should wait for final release, then report that bug
<falktx_> ScottL: hey there, I'm planning to do something you might be interested/happy with
<ScottL> falktx_, what is that?
<holstein> lol
<falktx_> to make it easy to users to use linux, I want to create a full from-install->full-setup tutorial series
<ScottL> falktx_, yes, i do like that :)
<falktx_> I will first document what distro to use, etc, and I would really like to recommend 11.10 US for the install
 * falktx_ hopes UbuntuStudio succeeds to have a Oneiric ISO
<falktx_> basically, users should install US 11.10, add the selected repos, and make a few tweaks
<falktx_> ScottL: I just want to say that I really want to see US coming on time for Oneiric
<falktx_> kde, unity and gnome are failing for musicians
<falktx_> and Xubuntu brings too much unnedded stuff
<falktx_> so, UbuntuStudio seems the best choice possible
<falktx_> (or a custom net-install +install-what-you-want, like Arch does)
<falktx_> ScottL: are you ok with me recommending US +KXStudio stuff, right?
<falktx_> wow, someone is uploading to my PPAs, someone that are not part of the team!
<falktx_> wtf? launchpad bugs???
<falktx_> here - https://launchpad.net/~kxstudio-team/+archive/hydrogen/
<falktx_> ^ that ppa has only hydrogen inside, but somehow other people uploaded new packages, people that are not in the kx-team
 * falktx_ reports bug
<falktx_> holstein: did you ever saw anything like this ^?
<holstein> falktx_: whats the deal?
<falktx_> holstein: check the page, https://launchpad.net/~kxstudio-team/+archive/hydrogen
<holstein> thats not you?
<falktx_> holstein: do you see 'luminance' in there? 
<holstein> you didnt upload 4 minutes ago?
<holstein> falktx_: i dont see luminance
<falktx_> holstein: please check this link
<falktx_> https://launchpad.net/~kxstudio-team/+archive/hydrogen/+packages?field.name_filter=&field.status_filter=published&field.series_filter=
<falktx_> holstein: anything suspicious there?
<holstein> falktx_: yeah
<holstein> dhor uploaded
<falktx_> ah, so you see it
<holstein> amr
<holstein> yeah, i see it there
<holstein> thats odd
<falktx_> holstein: thay ppa should only have hydrogen stuff...
<falktx_> how did this happened?
 * falktx_ is already in #launchpad
<holstein> :/
<falktx_> did someone copied them by mistake?
<holstein> maybe
<holstein> lets hope
<falktx_> yes, because if not...
<falktx_> it's a launchpad bug... it's very serious
<falktx_> *if it's
<falktx_> it seems to be multimedia content... maybe it was really a mistake?
<falktx_> all uploads are copies for natty
<falktx_> ScottL: ping
<ScottL> falktx_, hello, yes?
 * falktx_ repastes
<falktx_> ScottL: are you ok with me recommending US +KXStudio stuff, right?
<ScottL> i suppose so
<falktx_> ScottL: please note that I don't want to stand in US way, I just wanna help
<falktx_> since US official repos is a hard thing, kxstudio may help there
<falktx_> plus, I can throw my own software there
<falktx_> ScottL: if US gets an oneiric backports ppa, I'm here to help in that
<falktx_> holstein: found it, Dick from dreamstudio copied those packages, probably by mistake
<holstein> falktx_: OH
<holstein> thats not so bad then
<falktx_> yep
<falktx_> holstein: I will have a word with him though ;)
<holstein> hehe
<falktx_> heh, this really scared me here
<falktx_> hm, I never heard of him again, I wonder what happened...
<falktx_> I know he was working on a new cinelerra skin, that would be really nice to have
<falktx_> anyway, 4am here, time to sleep
<falktx_> cya
<craigs63> Good evening all.
<holstein> craigs63: hello
<craigs63> I'm new to the group and very rusty at IRC, other than that, rareing to go!
<holstein> craigs63: welcome :)
<holstein> you joined the mailing lists?
<craigs63> yeah, the devel and the user one. I haven't yet looked at the archives.
<holstein> craigs63: you'll catch up in here... i just wanted to make sure
<craigs63> I have changed a couple of typos in the wiki docs, I figure that's as good as a place to start, as any. 
<craigs63> "The Ubuntu Studio development team regularly meets on the second Sunday of every month at 17:00UTC in #ubuntu-meeting on irc.freenode.net"
<craigs63> Is this supposed to say "first Sunday"?
<falktx> just noticed new seed about software center removed
<falktx> is synaptic there to replace it?
<falktx> if not, it should be
<falktx> astraljava: ^?
<astraljava> falktx: Good point. Didn't think it through, I just needed to get the s-center out due to it's gnome dependencies.
<falktx> yep, I was <not-sure-what-to-put-here> when I saw it, cause it meant US had software center
<astraljava> falktx: Actually, it's still there.
<astraljava> jaska@lagavulin 14:30:58 ~/src/ubuntu-seeds/ubuntustudio.oneiric$ sgrep synapt .
<astraljava> ./desktop:85: * (synaptic)               # default GUI package manager
<falktx> ah, nice, astraljava, I just wanted to make sure
<falktx> synaptic is a nice tool, and a must have
<astraljava> Nah, aptitude's way better, along with apt-[cache|file]. :D
<falktx> astraljava: no, aptitude no longer works fine after the multilib thing
<falktx> astraljava: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/aptitude/+bug/831768
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 831768 in aptitude (Ubuntu) "aptitude cannot handle the same packages of different architectures being installed" [Undecided,Confirmed]
<falktx> bbl
<astraljava> Ooohhh nnnoooooo...
<astraljava> I better catch up with micahg for that one.
<ckontros> Boo11
<ckontros> !! rather
<holstein> ckontros: o/
 * ckontros is here to dedicate ~8hrs to tinkering. I was gonna look over the *-settings pkg and see if I can drop in our GNOME layout using XFCE. I know I /can/ do it. Just gotta see where things are at.
<holstein> cool
<holstein> astraljava: ping
 * ckontros fires up VMware.
<falktx> ckontros: using the same US gnome layout but for XFCE?
<falktx> ie, top menu +window list ?
<ckontros> For now, yes.
<ckontros> Anyone know if latest Xubuntu disks are building? I figure using that would be the best was to make sure things work.
<scott-work> co
<scott-work> hmm, cory left
<scott-work> hi abogani :)
<abogani> scott-work, Hi! :-)
<ckontros> astraljava: msg me when you're around.
<falktx> hm, I just had a crazy idea...
<falktx> fork unity-2d!
<falktx> it's Qt, so I know that to do
<falktx> and there's old code for u-remixes that can be reused
<falktx> for me, it sounds like a cool project for after oneiric release... :)
<ScottL> heh, i'm asking in #ubuntu-release about moving to a one year release cycle
<ScottL> hope it goes well and my head isn't bitten off ;)
 * astraljava is not gonna have much time until Sunday evening, so don't panic if I won't respond until. I'll read the backlog.
<ScottL> astraljava, cory was working on the porting of our desktop to xfce and wanted you for some reason, don't know exactly
<astraljava> Yeah, sent him an email.
<astraljava> We could move to one year release cycle, for sure, but only after 12.04.
<ScottL> right, that is what i said as well
<ScottL> i haven't really received a "formal" response but there has been banter that doesn't preclude it and suggests ways for this to happen
<astraljava> Alright. Well, I'll read the log on Sunday. Got friends over, so I'll be busy until they leave.
<ScottL> have fun :)
#ubuntustudio-devel 2011-08-27
<acmeinc> anyone around?
<acmeinc> im trying to find a dev release of 11.10 for testing...thx
<acmeinc> also the background.png does not load on the web site...throwing that out there
<astraljava> acmeinc: You can find the images @ http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/ubuntustudio/daily/
<astraljava> I have no idea about the state of its installability at this moment, though.
<acmeinc> astraljava: thx, i'll try to install this tomorrow
#ubuntustudio-devel 2011-08-28
<falktx> bug report about controls failed to build
<falktx> seems like a simple s/2.6/2.7/ will do the trick
<craigs63> hi all
<falktx> hey there
<craigs63> I'm reading some of the mailing list archive, getting up to speed.
<holstein> hey craigs63 
<holstein> welcome back
<craigs63> thanks!  The meeting is 14 1/2 hours from now, right?
 * holstein looking
<craigs63> Reading the workflow wiki, where was this 4 years ago  :-)
<holstein> craigs63: nah... its on the 4th
<craigs63> oh yeah! oops
<holstein> craigs63: where ever you were reading should say 'first sunday'
<holstein> what says the 2nd sunday?
<holstein> a wiki?
<craigs63> can't blame the time zone difference for that
<craigs63> the wiki used to before I changed it
<holstein> craigs63: THANKS!
<holstein> those wikis are a challene to keep up with
<craigs63> It looks like historically they were on the 2nd, then started going to the 1st Sunday.
<holstein> i think i might have instigated that when we moved to the *-meeting channel
<holstein> i forget
<craigs63> Yeah, it seems like the docs need some help. A lot of references to old releases too
<holstein> craigs63: what TZ are you in?
<craigs63> Central
<craigs63> US
<holstein> OK
<holstein> craigs63: the ubuntu global jam weekend? i plan on wiki'ing as much as possible
<holstein> im making the local LUG meeting on the jam
<holstein> i have 3 folks dedicated to the jam so far
<craigs63> I hadn't heard about that?
<holstein> im busy that weekend though
<holstein> its this weekend coming up
<holstein> the 2nd throught the 4th
<holstein> through*
<holstein> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuGlobalJam
<holstein> im sure im supposed to have added it to that wiki ;)
<craigs63> I just googled it
<craigs63> Are regular people reading docs supposed to know Natty and Oneiric and all that?
<craigs63> oops, ranting...
<holstein> craigs63: well, i think it could say both ideally
<craigs63> dumb question, what's a seed?
#ubuntustudio-devel 2012-08-20
<len-dt> ailo, fun fun. Also, take a look at the conversation I had on #ubuntustudio. with newagepunk/DataJuggler. How has he installed that is different from what we tested?
<len-dt> Is it just a strange keyboard language setup?
<ailo> len-dt: I'm pretty sure he didn't choose the correct keyboard layout
<ailo> Let me check about the audio group for amd64
<ailo> len-dt: groups works for me
<len-dt> Well he says he has the wrong KB for the language
<ailo> When you choose keyboard layout, you also need to specify the exact layout. There are usually multiple for each language
<ailo> For example, Swedish has about 5 or more
<ailo> Most are for language minorities
<smartboyhw> knome: I'm wondering: Why isn't there a "Get involved" section in ubuntustudio.org?
<knome> smartboyhw, i don't know. i'm not managing the content
<smartboyhw> knome: Then who is? I thought you manage the website...:)
<knome> i only helped create the website style
<smartboyhw> Oh, sorry, knome...
<knome> https://launchpad.net/~ubuntustudio-website
<smartboyhw> OK, that's weird, I will ask someone later then. Thanks knome
<knome> no problem
<smartboyhw> BTW, why isn't there a "Upgrade Ubuntu Studio" in the ISO QA Tracker? astraljava please fix it.
<astraljava> smartboyhw: It wasn't supported before due to the DE change. For 12.10, we could enable it again, but we won't for precise.
<smartboyhw> astraljava: Thanks, but what do you mean by DE change?
<astraljava> Desktop environment, previously we had GNOME 2, now it's XFCE.
<smartboyhw> Oh, so now since it's more stable, I think we can add it to 12.10
<astraljava> Well, it's possible. The question is do we support it.
<smartboyhw> astraljava: Why not?
<astraljava> I'm not 100% up-to-date on all changes in the project-related packages, we'd have to start testing it and make sure all transitions are in place. Granted, gut-feel suggests there aren't that huge changes this cycle, but I'm not overly confident before I get enough results. If you have time, please run it a few times, with a mixed application set.
<smartboyhw> OK
<smartboyhw> astraljava: Can you help the problem in #ubuntustudio for a bit for Jonny1?
<smartboyhw> astraljava: Ignore the previous message, no need now.
<smartboyhw> scott-work: Why isn't there a "Get involved" section in ubuntustudio.org? I asked knome, he said it's other's job to manage the content
<scott-work> smartboyhw: there are probably several reasons for this, which i will share
<scott-work> smartboyhw: but what information would you put there?
<smartboyhw> No, just wondering there should be one... Maybe info on dev and testing and documentation?
<scott-work> we have talked about putting something there but sometimes it becomes difficult to actually accomplish something when you can't agree or define exactly what must be done
<scott-work> maybe we should start by defining the problem:
<scott-work> "users do not have an easy or informative way to learn about contributing to ubuntu studio"
<scott-work> perhaps?
<scott-work> could we add to the statement or change it to be more accurate? take something away?
<scott-work> smartboyhw: oh, just to help you understand his position - kn.ome is the lead for the xubuntu team, which ubuntu studio shares many of the programs, and has graciously helped ubuntu studio with the web development, he's not really responsible for it though
<smartboyhw> Wow.....
<smartboyhw> I agree with the problem definition
<scott-work> it is harder than it looks :P
<scott-work> i agree with you that something probably needs to be done
<scott-work> i think it is obvious we need something there to help people transition to contributing to ubuntu studio, but defining _what_ is was became very difficult
<scott-work> however, smartboyhw, if you want to think about it and through out some ideas...well, that would be very, very helpful
<smartboyhw> So where can I spit out those ideas on?
<smartboyhw> ;)
<scott-work> the mailing list is a good place that is transparent and easily accessed
<smartboyhw> OK, I will write a email to it.
<scott-work> smartboyhw: how are you doing on the documentation for ailo?
<smartboyhw> scott-work: Still need some time, I'm a bit busy these days
<smartboyhw> ;)
<scott-work> smartboyhw: can i ask that you finish the documentation _befure_ you start other tasks?
<smartboyhw> OK
<smartboyhw> Just wondering!
<scott-work> this isn't to pick on you, this is a common issue with all of us :P
<scott-work> _everything_ is far too interesting to complete anything before moving on to the shiny, new, exciting next item ;)
<scott-work> happens to me as well
<smartboyhw> !
<smartboyhw> scott-work: kidding, but will there be any changes to the 12.04.1 image now?
<smartboyhw> BTW, since I'm busy these days, I will install 12.04.1, then continue to work on the documentation.
<scott-work> smartboyhw: i am not aware of any changes for 12.04.1
<smartboyhw> Thanks scott-work
<scott-work> it would have been nice to have an updated lowlatency kernel for 12.04.1 though
<scott-work> *sigh* but i guess that is partly my fault for not talking to apw instead of waiting on him
<smartboyhw> scott-work: ...
<scott-work> which reminds me...thanks astraljava for sending out an email for the ISO testing
<scott-work> smartboyhw: yes?
<smartboyhw> scott-work: ... means *sigh* for me:)
<smartboyhw> astraljava: Status report on upgrading: Upgrading from 12.04 to 12.10, will tell you the results later
<len-dt> ailo, scott-work I am just looking at the docs for module-jackdbus-detect. They are very sparce :) but it is possible to have the bridge default to no auto connect.
<smartboyhw> len-dt: You happy with 12.04.1?
<len-dt> I am going to test this
<smartboyhw> Well, you tested it already, didn't you?
<len-dt> smartboyhw, I am as happy as i can get. It would have been nice to use 12.10 as LTS
<len-dt> the testing is about pulse.
<smartboyhw> len-dt: I agree about 12.10 being LTS
<len-dt> However, the next LTS... if there are no big changes in DE, should be really nice
<smartboyhw> len-dt: Memory problem: I forgot what is DE
<len-dt> Desktop Environmet
<len-dt> In this case xfce
<smartboyhw> Ah, yeah, let's see will there be an update on Xfce
<len-dt> 12.04 has xfce4.8 and 12.10 has xfce4.10
<astraljava> For the next LTS, we _might_ get full GTK3 port. :D
<len-dt> There are a number of fixes I like in 4.10. The theme still needs a few tweaks
<smartboyhw> astraljava: You're back! Also, next LTS: +`
<smartboyhw> *+1
<len-dt> astraljava, I figured out how to add things to the xfce settings manager BTW
<astraljava> len-dt: Oh cool! Do tell, I'll read the backlog later, must leave the office now.
<smartboyhw> len-dt: Congrats
<len-dt> astraljava, very simple just set the categories right
<astraljava> scott-work: Next time you see an email stuck in the queue due to that too many recipients message, leave it there, I'll look into it more carefully.
<len-dt> astraljava, in the desktop file
<smartboyhw> :)
<astraljava> scott-work: Any news from apw re: -lowlatency refresh on precise? We're running out of time soon.
<scott-work> astraljava: sent apw pm about it
<len-dt> ailo, I would suggest adding to your controls starting pulse with no pa-jack bridge auto connect.
<smartboyhw> astraljava: Upgrade from 12.04 to 12.10 succeeded for me:)
<ailo> len-dt: I've been thinking about that. Also, looking at a simple jack control. 
<ailo> For connections, I'd use patchage
<ailo> len-dt: I might not get that much done before 12.10 though
<len-dt> ailo, to have pa-jack not auto connect the file /etc/pulse/default.pa has a line: load-module module-jackdbus-detect
<len-dt> change that to: load-module module-jackdbus-detect connect=no
<ailo> len-dt: Ok. I'll save that somewhere :)
<smartboyhw> ;)
<ailo> Saved in resources for -controls. I'm actually planning on making it as Debian friendly as possible. Was thinking about a name for it: pro-audio-controls
<smartboyhw> ailo: I like that name:)
<ailo> While the version for Ubuntu Studio would still be called ubuntustudio-controls
<ailo> smartboyhw: Did you already post at the mentors list?
<smartboyhw> ailo: What do you mean?
<ailo> smartboyhw: About the package you wanted to upload
<smartboyhw> ailo: I need to recommit, will take some time
<smartboyhw> Well, bye for now!
<ailo> I'm participating in a little IT course, involving php among other things for a couple of weeks. Old PC's. Was allowed to install ubuntu on one. 
<ailo> UI performance was terrible, so I installed awesome
<ailo> And it was awesome
<ailo> I takes something like 30MB of RAM
<ailo> No, sorry. 6MB
<len-dt> ailo, the user having trouble with audio group at install printed a dvd from the iso and it was ok.
<len-dt> The use that failed to put the user in the audio group was writing the ISO to a USB stick in windows. using Universal-USB-Installer-1.9.0.6. This is the program suggested by the ubuntu how to page.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2012-08-21
<ailo> len-dt: Wow. Wonder how that changes the install procedure then
<ailo> len-dt: I'll add a non-recommend to use that with the Ubuntu Studio image
<ailo> unetbootin works a lot better
<ailo> Well, at least it works :)
<ailo> I see there is a bug report
<ailo> Maybe I should look more into this. I'll try creating a usb stick on Windows, using unetbootin to see if that makes a difference
<len-dt> ailo, I wonder. On Linux it is not called done until it has successfully dismounted the device. I wonder if in windows most of the stuff is still in memory buffers when the usb stick was pulled out.
<len-dt> The same user also said it took "longer" when he created one on Linux and longer to install.
<len-dt> ailo, re. web content... should we be saying/advertising that US has libav rather than ffmpeg?
<len-dt> (on the video page)
<len-dt> (see thread on #ubuntustudio)
<ailo> len-dt: I have no idea about those things :). But, if you have a recommendation for what to change on the site, I can make the changes
<len-dt> It seems that ffmpeg is just a link to avconv
<len-dt> Hmm no it isn't.
<ailo> len-dt: After a quick check, avconv is a part of libav-tools
<len-dt> but when you run ffmpeg there is a message: *** THIS PROGRAM IS DEPRECATED ***
<len-dt> This program is only provided for compatibility and will be removed in a future release. Please use avconv instead.
<ailo> len-dt: ffmpeg installs libav-tools, so I think it's right
<ailo> Well, gotta go. I'll try to set up a small devel env at my "work" place. Seems I will have the opportunity to work from there
<ailo> I think for the touch screen setup, it might be enough to point to community docs
<ailo> Anyway, not supposed to be here already
<smartboyhw> Anyone have comments on the e-mail that I just sent?
<knome> i imagine they will reply over email
<smartboyhw> knome: OK
<smartboyhw> I forgotten: Who's working on the release notes of 12.04.1? Just a question:)
<knome> for ubuntu studio, i don't know
<smartboyhw> Wait, I'm checking the meeting log
<smartboyhw> It's stochastic to write a changelog between 12.04 and 12.04.1...
<smartboyhw> BTW, if anyone is here, what has submerged after we talked about a graphics and publishing sub-commitee in the meeting a week ago?:)
<smartboyhw> Another thing: Could someone add http://ubuntuforums.org/forumdisplay.php?f=335 ( Ubuntu Studio forum) to http://ubuntustudio.org/support/ (Support on website)
<knome> done
<smartboyhw> Thanks, knome:)
<smartboyhw> astraljava: Any updates on the kernel refresh? I don't think it is a good idea to do so, since that we only have 2 days till release. So I don't recommend to refresh the kernel. That's my view, at least
<astraljava> smartboyhw: Ask Scott when he's around, he's been in touch with the relevant kernel people.
<smartboyhw> OK
<holstein> question is, when do you guys think we can stop with the kernel?
<smartboyhw> holstein: What do you mean?
<holstein> i would like to always be testing the *-generic kernel
<holstein> it would be nice to just have the one kernel developed for us
<smartboyhw> Linux kernels always evolve...:)
<smartboyhw> Hmm........ I actually like *-generic more then *-lowlatency
<holstein> i know, when i was "lobbying" for the lowlatency kernel, i had hoped for it to be more of a temporary bandaid
<holstein> smartboyhw: it was not giving RT priority, and it was considerer, through actual testing and reporting, that the lowlatency one was important and necessary and wouldnt break anything for anyone else
<smartboyhw> holstein: Then... I am starting not to understand about it...Maybe let's wait for scott-work to appear:)
<holstein> smartboyhw: this is more of a question
<holstein> not a statement, or call to action
<smartboyhw> OK, so what do we like?
<smartboyhw> lowlatency or generic? 
<holstein> im wondering if anyone is testing the mainline kernel? or noticing if there is RT privs
<holstein> not so much "what do you like?"
<astraljava> Hmm... I was not aware for it to become just temporary, but then I haven't done exhaustive audio testing to verify the reason of its existence. If -generic performs well enough for most, I suppose it can be dropped. Whether there's a chance it'll happen anytime soon, I cannot tell.
<holstein> its more like, does the generic do the job.. when it does, i think its safe to stop with the lowlatency
<holstein> i should say *if* it does
<smartboyhw> I think ailo got len-dt to test a 3.5.1-lowlatency i386 kernel
<astraljava> ailo has done most of such testing, I suppose. Chat him up when both of you happen to be around at the same time. :)
<holstein> astraljava: i know thats why debian is not doing one officially
<holstein> yeah, ailo would have good first hand experience
<astraljava> Yeah. Someone's doing the -rt unofficially there, or at least every once in a while. But I know not more of it.
<smartboyhw> Let's wait for him
<holstein> well, its not like we need to wait.. if you want to see, try a generic mainline kernel.. fire up JACK, and look in the messages for something like "realtime is not happening"
<holstein> i havent done that since pre 12.04 release
<holstein> i wanted to make sure that the LTS had a relavent kernel... now my motivation would be so that when we (meaning scott and others) dont need to be working on the kernel, we dont have to
<astraljava> holstein: He's already done some 3.5.1 testing, that's on gitorious. I seem to recall he saying not being happy about -generic, but that might be bollocks, and I'm too lazy to double-check the logs. :D
<holstein> astraljava: last time i asked, it was still a no-go
<smartboyhw_w8> Hmm
<holstein> and the word is, it might not ever "do the trick"
<astraljava> I don't suppose it has changed since.
<smartboyhw_w8> :)
<astraljava> 'k, /me -> homebound
<smartboyhw> holstein: You'd better ask len-dt now
<holstein> smartboyhw: asking Len-nb what?
<smartboyhw> About the kernel? He's been testing it for ailo
<holstein> OH.. well it was more of a general shout out
<holstein> i would like some folks to be testing the mainline generic kernels
<smartboyhw> ok
<holstein> when they support RT, theres no need for the lowlatency kernel
<holstein> then, we can talk about dropping it or whatever
<holstein> that day may never come though
<smartboyhw> holstein: Hopefully it will
<holstein> upstream already implied that it was happening... several years ago
<smartboyhw> astraljava: It is possible to upgrade from 12.04 to 12.10. Add it back to the ISO QA Tracker for Quantal Builds:)
<smartboyhw> Bye for now anyway:)
<ailo> Are language files in Xubuntu much different from those in Ubuntu?
<ailo> Ah, I guess installation language may be a bit custom
<ailo> I mean, the text during installation
<knome> yes, it's definitely different :)
<knome> especially the slideshow.
<ailo> knome: There was a bug about the Ubuntu Studio installer menu #1039339. The guy has offered to help with translation, but I have no idea where the files are. I was thinking maybe you would know
<ailo> A lot of languages to choose from btw. I guess only a few lines are custom?
<ailo> knome: Oh, but this one? bug #1039216
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1039216 in Ubuntu Studio "wrong keyboard layout after installation of ubuntustudio 12.04" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1039216
<knome> i believe the menu is created from .desktop files
<knome> it should be the same during installation and when installed
<ailo> knome: This is only the boot menu for the installer medium
<knome> hmm, the debian-cd boot menu?
<ailo> The first thing you see, when booting the DVD
<knome> does that even exist anymore.. ;)
<knome> i suppose that's debian-cd
<ailo> I guess the first line is the only new one, since US went live
<ailo> The other line is created by the program USB-Installer, so not our problem
<ailo> I'm thinking of "Install Ubuntu Studio to HDD"
<knome> as long as it affects you, it's your problem too :]
<ailo> I added a non-recommend to the download page
<ailo> It doesn't create a full installation media. Some things are missing
<Len-nb> ailo, speaking of missing.... A lot of the application help files come in a package called ubuntu-docs. Like help for nautilus for example.
<Len-nb> We don't ship this file.
<Len-nb> s/file/package
<Len-nb> The problem is it also has the docs for a lot of stuff we don't have, like unity.
<Len-nb> I am wondering if this would be confusing for the user.
<ailo> Len-nb: I guess optimally, Ubuntu Studio would require its' own docs, since if I understand correctly, those docs are for the distro in general, not individual applications
<knome> ^ that's what xubuntu is doing.
<knome> we're currently doing a docs rewrite, and we're pointing to other docs as much as possible/sensible
<knome> eg. it's not at all necessary for us to maintain firefox documentation
<ailo> I assume there is a XFCE based documentation for just the desktop system. If Ubuntu Studio would use standard XFCE setup, at least there would be easily inheritable docs for the those applications. Then there are some Ubuntu speficic stuff, but I don't know how much of that is really relevant. Pulseaudio, perhaps
<ailo> Using Nautilus and such, which are Gnome applications, make things a bit harder.
<ailo> If it is felt important to have documents for those
<ailo> knome: Sounds like a smart approach
#ubuntustudio-devel 2012-08-22
<smartboyhw> scott-work: holstein has been asking about the kernel, he wants it to be changed to -generic. What are your ideas?:)
<smartboyhw> BTW, any news that a new kernel will be placed in 12.04.1?
<len-dt> smartboyhw, I didn't get that from what I have seen holstein  say.
<smartboyhw> OK
<smartboyhw> Maybe I'm a bit wrong in describing
<len-dt> there is acually very little difference from generic to lowlatency
<smartboyhw> len-dt: The diff is RT, right?
<len-dt> holstein, has said that a lot of people would do just fine with generic.
<len-dt> It is not a RT kernel, that is different again.
<smartboyhw> Oh man
<len-dt> real time or preempt requires a patch to the kernel source
<len-dt> lowlatency uses the same source but builds with different options
<len-dt> (same source as generic)
<len-dt> That makes a huge difference in maintenance work
<len-dt> There are some dangers with using a RT kernel. a bad application can lock the system up solid.
<len-dt> RT works well with multi-core systems where c-groups can be used to set some cores RT and at least one to allow some time for other processes to run.
<len-dt> that provides some safety to the system with the ability to shutdown a rogue process.
<holstein> smartboyhw: ?
<smartboyhw> Well, the kernel thing.
<holstein> smartboyhw: i want us to be testing mainline generic kernels for rt priv support
<smartboyhw> OK
<len-dt> holstein, how are your channels numbered in ffado for your FW IF? Are they channels 1 to n or 0 to n
<holstein> len-dt: they were 1 through 8
<holstein> so far with the new stack, the are left1 right1 left2 righ2... so on
<holstein> i dont think ive ever had anything labeled 0 yet len-dt 
<len-dt> So if someone has a FW device that is 0 to n that would be the driver for that device.
<smartboyhw> BTW, we really need testers, the 12.04.1 images? only len-dt and I reported to ISO QA Tracker:(
<len-dt> There is someone on LAD who seems to have a FW device that comes up in Jack as 0 to 8 or whatever.
<holstein> len-dt: interestings... it used to bother me the inconsistency.. now i think of it as "the ghost in the machine" ;)
<holstein> smartboyhw: imagine what its been like before you were here
<len-dt> If it was alsa a fake device with renumbered channels would fix it.
<smartboyhw> holstein: You mean that I am rude?
<holstein> never really bothered me len-dt ...as long as i can tell whats what
<len-dt> He's having problems with things that auto connect
<holstein> smartboyhw: ? ...no, im just saying, before you came along, it would have just been len-dt having tested the iso
<smartboyhw> holstein: Oh....:(
<holstein> smartboyhw: im a glass half full kind of guy
<len-dt> smartboyhw, and that means only 32 bit
<holstein> you might think of it as "oh know, we need testers" and im thinking "wow, we have another tester"
<smartboyhw> holstein: OK, that's weird
<holstein> lol... i said, "oh know" ;)
<len-dt> holstein, the generic kernel could be made so that a boot time commandline switch would do the trick.
<holstein> len-dt: put me down for testing that
<holstein> anything to make life easier
<holstein> assuming that would be easier
<smartboyhw> holstein: :)
<holstein> i feel like i know just enough about it to be dangerous
<smartboyhw> holstein: It IS dangerous
<len-dt> holstein, I'm not much better
<holstein> len-dt: nah... you are our top contributor, and i already have a christmas card picked out for you!
<len-dt> holstein, so how do get our branches uploaded?
<smartboyhw> len-dt: I will write one to you and also holstein and actually almost everybody:)
<holstein> len-dt: great question!
<holstein> for astraljava , stochastic , or scott-work 
<holstein> or knome maybe
<len-dt> I think people are busy with .1 right now.
<holstein> yup.. and thats good too
<smartboyhw> True
<holstein> .1 is what interests me most personally
<holstein> i consider non lts releases "testing"
<smartboyhw> .1, .2, ,3 and .4 interests me
<len-dt> it has been suggested to me (should be on the list) that we make a new package called -docs
<len-dt> to replace ubuntu-docs which we don't ship.
<smartboyhw> len-dt: Good suggestion
<holstein> probably not a bad idea... depending on our target audience i suppose
<len-dt> anyone know where the branch is kept?
<smartboyhw> Dunno:)
<holstein> if we target current windwos/mac users doing audio, then it really isnt all that important
<holstein> those folks dont look in the OS for help like that
<holstein> i think thats a big change for new-comers
<smartboyhw> It's a GENERAL guide
<len-dt> Well the help stuff for nautilus is missing and maybe others too.
<holstein> there is no "windows-studio" or "macOSX-audio" or whatever
<holstein> its a little foriegn i think for folks to come to from windows for sure, where *everything* is different
<holstein> not that we have to address or respond to that
<holstein> just thinking outloud
<len-dt> Ya, the idea of connecting applications together is a linux thing.
<holstein> which is something we can celebrate, and is really one of 2 things that makes it impossible for me to leave linux for audio or whatever
<len-dt> I am just thinking that without the docs these apps look broken.
<holstein> len-dt: well.. are they?
<len-dt> They have a help button that gives an error
<holstein> nautilus is really doing some odd things i know.. main ubuntu is going with an older version
<holstein> len-dt: i think we should consider another FM
<holstein> maybe just the XFCE one.. and soon
<len-dt> The user can choose thunar if they like
<holstein> i think keeping nautilus in the LTS was a good call, and an effort to keep a legacy vibe with gnome2's apps
<holstein> but, if nautilus is changing from that, and thunar is more like gnome2's nautilus, then maybe we should consider that
<len-dt> nautilus provides two things (I can think of) that we would not have otherwise.
<holstein> or, give up on the lagacy look and feel as well... which im OK with too
<len-dt> file search, and remote connect
<len-dt> I use both.
<holstein> len-dt: theres always something im missing when running xubuntu.. i use and prefer gigolo now for remote connect
<holstein> len-dt: not that we need to include it...
<holstein> len-dt: i also use something like kupfer for "search"... again just me
<len-dt> We have gigolo, but not all the backends
<holstein> len-dt: i find it odd that nautilus is the only one that really has all this
<holstein> all this in by default, and out of the box
<len-dt> nautilus just comes with everything, thunar needs extras to do almost anything
<len-dt> holstein, this probably means nautilus has a bigger memory footprint
<len-dt> but then thunar with all the extras to make it work the same probably uses a lot of memory too.
<len-dt> maybe more
<holstein> len-dt: yeah, i personally like having one app, even if its bigger/slower that does it all
<holstein> len-dt: especially since i feel like we need those things, since we used to have them, and users arguably need them and expect them
<len-dt> I have had people ask how to search, and I use remote for keeping my webpage up and backup stuff.
<holstein> thunar is great though, and i suppose to be fair, someone should add that functionality and test the performance
<holstein> prolly not something we need worry about soon hopefully
<len-dt> I have had some flaky things with thunar when it auto opens an inserted USB drive.
<len-dt> This is not a problem in 12.10 where we don't auto open things
<scott-work> smartboyhw: my latest talk with apw indicated that we will not receive an updated lowlatency kernel in time for 12.04.1 release
<smartboyhw> scott-work: Thanks
<holstein> smartboyhw: not a deal breaker though, you think?
<smartboyhw> OK, so the image won't be changed anyway, and I can focus on #ubuntu-testing now. YEAH
<scott-work> as len-dt and holstein report, the generic kernel has been getting better and better as RT features have been rolling into the main branch
<scott-work> however, i would still point out that the lowlatency kernel has demonstrated it can improve latency by at least a factor of 2 (i.e. cut latency by half) in some cases considerably larger factors
<holstein> scott-work: cool!.. we'll see if its ever up to the task we need it to be
<smartboyhw> !
<scott-work> i think holstein was using his firewire device with 1.97msc latency, i have used dell computer onboard sound with 1.97 msec latency...mind you, this is stable latencies
<scott-work> smartboyhw: re: testing in ISO QA - as long as we meet the minimum number of tests we can get the image released, so i wouldn't get too upset or dramatic if we don't have more testers
<holstein> yeah... i can get quite a bit done under 1ms with the old RT kernel and firewire
<scott-work> doesn't mean we don't want more, rather it isn't dire
<holstein> on 10.04
<smartboyhw> !
<scott-work> len-dt: uploading branches - i would subscribe -sponsors and announce in #ubuntu-motu about needing sponsor (i disremember the link currently)
<scott-work> re: thunar, i wish it would do tabs :(
<scott-work> i think the developer stated in a forum that thunar would never do tabs, that is confusing to me
<len-dt> scott-work, micahg had already started looking at them. I don't want people to do the same work over again...
<smartboyhw> !
<scott-work> sorry :)
<len-dt> nautilus is now set up much like chromium
<len-dt> (no menu bar)
<ailo> holstein: In my estimate, the -generic kernel is nowhere near usable for live audio
<ailo> holstein: But, if you can talk UTK into replacing it with -lowlatency, the problem would be solved
<ailo> I'm in a sweet position at the moment. For the next month, I'm coding 24/7
<ailo> I'll try to wrap up the testing scripts as soon as possible
<smartboyhw> ailo: That's serious
<len-dt> I go wonky when I code that much... or even less.
<ailo> I have so many things that need to be finished in that area, and I'm looking forward to having finished it all within this month
<smartboyhw> I got headaches when coding...
<smartboyhw> I mean big projects...
<ailo> I think on both Mac and Windows you can get pretty low latencies. The downside is, most programs won't let you know when there's a "xrun"
<ailo> And I don't think you can get the same latencies as you can with -lowlatency, on either Mac or Windows
<ailo> Could be wrong, but that's my general experience
<ailo> -generic however, is not nearly as reliable as either Mac or Windows
<ailo> I share holstein's hope for a simpler future for pro audio on Linux. jack could be fully automated, and all of the sound systems could be seemlessly working together, without performance issues. All you'd need was one audio control interface, with a window for making connections
<ailo> Full blown session support. Just save any configuration, or make it into a template. Use whatever applications you want, for anything, with anything
<scott-work> in a similar manner, i had some interesting feedback on UX and content creation from my post: https://plus.google.com/u/0/100313956509426913392/posts/953vgozPPDm
<smartboyhw> astraljava: Please tell me if I can add a upgrade testcase for US 12.10, I'm now a testcase admin:)
<scott-work> i think this shows a desire by non-geek musicians for a simpler way to use ubuntu studio for content creation
<ailo> Someting I would think is
<ailo> sorry..
<smartboyhw> :)
<ailo> Something I think is coming soon is more advanced web based applications. In all sorts of areas
<smartboyhw> BTW, very strange: Someone asked that if we are only doing LTS->LTS releases. Strange....
<scott-work> oh, and i just found this blog: http://audio-and-linux.blogspot.com/
<scott-work> interesting stuff
<scott-work> anybody remember an application for starting and monitoring jack from the panel? the developer has hung out in this channel quite a bit (note: this pre-dates falktx)
<scott-work> think it was a german developer
<ailo> I think maybe only holstein would know
<smartboyhw> ;)
<len-dt> laditray sort of does that
<ailo> qjackctl can be made to do that too
<ailo> It has an option for it
<scott-work> it was something like "jack-panel" or similar
<scott-work> used pyjack or was related to pyjack
<smartboyhw> Guys, we have a problem, the people doesn't know the difference between Mythbuntu and Ubuntu Studio.
<scott-work> which people
<len-dt> "the people"?
<smartboyhw> Well, my friends in Ubuntu QA Testing...
<len-dt> Lots of people do know
<smartboyhw> They seemed to think the two are the same thing...
<len-dt> meaning?
<smartboyhw> They don't even know what's Ubuntu Studio:(
<len-dt> I think anyone who is looking for what studio provides will not have that problem.
<smartboyhw> Hmm....That is the most awkward thing I've ever heard about Ubuntu Studio...
<len-dt> studio is not for everyone
<smartboyhw> OK, but that's sad...:(
<len-dt> it does fill a large number of rolls, but there may be other flavours that do one thing or some things better.
<len-dt> I don't think that is sad
<smartboyhw> !
<len-dt> That is why there are flavours in the first place.
<smartboyhw> Hmm
<scott-work> you can tell them that mythbuntu is for mythtv/PVR functionality (recording and watching tv on a computer) and ubuntu studio is for content creation
<smartboyhw> That's what I did.
<smartboyhw> Actually, does Ubuntu Studio and Mythbuntu use the same kernel? I mean 0lowlatency?
<smartboyhw> *-lowlatency
<scott-work> found my application - jackpanel: http://www.hans-baier.de/wordpress/jackpanel
<smartboyhw> Congrats
<len-dt> Someone who is interested in creating will not look at myth for long, someone who is setting up a mutimedia sysem will go there.
<smartboyhw> !
<holstein> ailo: you have an estimate about the generic kernel? you think it ever will be appropriate for US?
<len-dt> scott-work, I can make qjackctl look the same as the controller... the tray display is different though
<smartboyhw> News: I am now Ubuntu Testcase Admins!
<ailo> holstein: Not with its current design and configs. And it might also depend on the sound system. I can't really tell. All I know is that without the preempt config enabled, latency might be ok, but very frail. How to change that, I don't know? 
<holstein> ailo: did you see len-dt 's statement? a boot time "argument" to the generic kernel?
<ailo> If they can make the preemption more dynamic, allowing single applications to be very preempt(and whatever resources they need), just while they request it, that might work on a -generic/standard kernel
<ailo> But, is that already how it is on -lowlatency? I don't even knowe
<ailo> holstein: You can boot the -generic kernel to support threadirqs with a boot argument
<holstein> ailo: i have no idea...
<ailo> holstein: The only real difference between generic and lowlatency right now is two configuration options
<smartboyhw> Bye for now, off to bed!
<ailo> Apart from the threadirqs patch, which can be replaced by a boot time argument
<len-dt> ailo, RT is that way. If you use no applications that ask for preempt then RT behaves like generic.
<len-dt> bye smartboyhw 
<ailo> len-dt: Then, -generic must be that way too. But, perhaps the Hz 1000 makes a tiny difference though
<smartboyhw> Bye holstein len-dt scott-work ailo
<ailo> smartboyhw: bye
<len-dt> Can HZ1000 be set for boot time?
<ailo> len-dt: Don't know. Don't think so. It would be interesting to find out about both configs though. I would think it's just a matter of adding patches to the code
<ailo> Even if that was so, you still need to make the change happen manually. It won't be activated until the user requests it, either using a gui that supports such a feature, or by editing the grub config file by hand
<len-dt> run it past the kernel team (upstream)
<len-dt> We could ship our own grub config.
<len-dt> PR wise it would be a loss :)
<len-dt> Being able to say low latency kernel is nice.
<ailo> len-dt: It would be kind of sweet to be able to do things with -generic that no one thought could be done. But, as most people don't know what -lowlatency is, they don't realize it is already being done
<len-dt> ya, I know. The kernel team knows too... so there is a general why bother attitude with them
<holstein> most folks likely just bail thinking they need a realtime kernel and dont know what that means
<ailo> There's -server, and -generic. Since -generic is not meant for servers, it might just as well be configured for preempt, and not voluntary preempt, as now. 
<ailo> Come to think of that
<ailo> I should build two more kernels
<ailo> One with preempt, but with slow HZ. The other vice versa
<ailo> Which of the two does the most difference, really?
<ailo> Might be -generic would suffer no problems at all being configured for preempt.
<ailo> For whatever targets it is built for (a wide range)
<holstein> ailo: no hit in battery life on the laptops?
<ailo> holstein: Perhaps, due to the higher Hz
<len-dt> The sense is that cpu governing has minimal impact even.
<ailo> Yea
<ailo> there's gotta be some kernel tests for finding that out at least
<ailo> http://www.phoronix-test-suite.com/
<ailo> hmm, it's in the repo in fact
<ailo> phoronix-test-suite
<ailo> len-dt: ^
<ailo> There's one test that measures battery power usage
<ailo> There's also one called idle-power-usage
<scott-work> len-dt: scott-work, I can make qjackctl look the same as the controller... the tray display is different though
<scott-work> heheh, i was going to apologize for getting into a meeting which spilt into lunch and that's why i'm now replying
<scott-work> when i was interrupted during this apology
<scott-work> len-dt: ailo: holstein: i would like your input on a thought:
<scott-work> i want to make it easier for users to experience the different content creation methods
<scott-work> i have mentioned various changes we could do, e.g. different panels, menus, icons, "docks", etc
<scott-work> this would streamline the various immediate options (or uses) based on the desktop
<scott-work> would using a different (and additional) set of xsessions be useful?
<scott-work> (consider this if we were to include some applet in the panel for controlling jack)
<scott-work> (or maybe a -controls applet as well)
<scott-work> or perhaps i should ask...if you had a perfect setup for audio to make it as simplistic and easy for you to use, how would it function?
<scott-work> forget scripts or existing apps, think abstractly!
<scott-work> think future perfect state
<scott-work> shift paradigms
<len-dt> scott-work, ... extra xsessions.. I am not thrilled with this idea on current HW. All of the workflows we support tend to be resource intensive. The idea of "wasting" resources on more than one xsession hurts.
<len-dt> Switching the look and feel along with what is running sounds fine.
<len-dt> That would mean saving everything in a session. (takes time) before starting the next.
<len-dt> Of course, with 64Gram and 16 cores... anything may be possible. However, when we get there the software will have evolved to use it all :P
<ailo> scott-work: I'm going to implement jack controls to ubuntustudio-controls, and I'm kind of playing around with how to make it really simple. Obscure details that aren't important for running jack by hiding them in an advanced settings category. 
<ailo> With falktx jacklib.py, it's pretty easy to control jack
<ailo> len-dt: I don't know what exactly an x session is, but what's the difference between loading one application at a time to loading them all at once (assuming I'm not misunderstanding something)
<ailo> Current HW today should be regarded minimum dual core with 2 GB of ram
<ailo> Some notebooks and netbooks have a bit slower cpus' but the 2GB limit is quite fair
<ailo> I think a few people still use P4 based cpu's with older graphic cards, but they can hardly be used with a modern web browser
<scott-work> len-dt: the idea of a separate xsession would be to log into it, so therefore it wouldn't be extra resources, would it?
<scott-work> ailo: i really like falktx's cadence and i have asked him to incorporate a patchage functionality into it and it would be THE application used to control jack IMO
<scott-work> ailo: so i certainly appreciate controlling jack, but what else would -controls do? should these functions be parsed into separate apps?
<len-dt> scott-work, why do the logout/login thing? The idea of mode changing is to achieve the same thing in the current session. There should be less time from one mode/session type to the next that way.
<scott-work> i don't have a problem with that, i was just brainstorming about possible implementations
<scott-work> would we need to switch modes during a live session? should we? i don't know
<scott-work> can you change panel applets, desktops, panels, etc easily without logging out?
<len-dt> The main thing missing is to be able to know what apps have been started in this "subsession" so we know to exit them.
<len-dt> Ya, it can be done. But better would be to change them on the fly.
<len-dt> So far as changing modes as subsessions and for on the fly applications... there can be more than one kind of mode... called by different names :) but the idea is the saem in either case
<scott-work> okay :)
<len-dt> I don't know if xfce-panel is the best panel to use with this.
<scott-work> i was sitting in the meeting at work thinking about how jackpanel could change our interpretation of the desktop, or at least what we expect from it, and i thought about how the panels could change for different categories of work flows (audio vs graphic vs video, not just different audio work flows)
<scott-work> len-dt: but xfce-panel uses xml files, is that not good?
<len-dt> with the xfce panel to shift things the files have to be moved in and out.
<scott-work> and i realized that we already control the panels, etc via xsessions and realized we could provide different xsessions so the user could log into a particular session for a specific category of work flow
<len-dt> with different xsessions you need different users too
<scott-work> len-dt: could we not have a couple of specific xml files (e.g. foo.xml, bar.xml, etc) and copy them over default.xml ?
<len-dt> if you used different xsessions but the same home dir....
<scott-work> len-dt: why would we need different users for different sessions? i'm doing that right now actually 
<scott-work> i have my laptop with the default unity session and then i added xfce to it as well
<len-dt> It would be easier to mv a link to different .config/xfce4 directories
<scott-work> i use unity for one thing and the xfce as another
<scott-work> okay, a link would work then, correct?
<len-dt> xfce and unity store their desktop in different places
<len-dt> if a link didn't work, two mv operations would.
<scott-work> oh, i think i understand what you are saying
<scott-work> multiple xsessions for the same DE and user would cause some conflicts
<len-dt> The one problem is alacarte
<len-dt> changes made there are stored in .config/menus (I think)
<len-dt> Though again that could be switched out
<len-dt> we would have to make a decision about what settings would stay with the session and which would move with the mode.
<len-dt> maybe call it workflow or something else.
<len-dt> A new workflow would require the user to tell us they wanted to create a new one. Would need an icon that said create new workflow. In which case we would mv the current WF out and replace it with nothing. When the panel started it would grab system default.
<len-dt> scott-work, next problem would be how to ship it. Our program would have to start up before xfce stuff. grab the wf syetm defaults and install them... the same as xfce does.
<scott-work> len-dt: are you considering changing the entire or portions of the desktop per actual work flows (even between specific audio work flows)?
<scott-work> s/specific/discreete
<scott-work> for example...
<scott-work> let's say we shipped support for audio-recording, audio-generation, audio-podcasting, and audio-live work flows
<scott-work> -recording for recording live instruments (including vocals) and -generation for synths and such
<scott-work> i would not expect the desktop to change between those
<scott-work> i think we could include jackpanel applet integration and side panel icons for each of the work flows and keep things consistent
<scott-work> however, for other types of work flows (video, graphical, etc) we might consider changing the desktop or excluding things (like the jack applet)
<scott-work> again, i would prefer to keep the menu stock in these cases (since we are addressing work flows with side panels or similar)
<len-dt> scott-work, anything is possible... certainly small things like changing the background could be done. But I was mostly thinking about the panel
<scott-work> len-dt: i am asking when have you been considering a change necessary
<scott-work> were you thinking about changing between each and every discreete work flow or just between the general types of work flows?
<len-dt> That is open.
<len-dt> The amount of work to do it is kinda constant no matter how often you switch.
<len-dt> I think there are a number of workflows that are combined, though.
<len-dt> scott-work, you started by saying be open (my words not yours) to anything.
<scott-work> i understand :)
<len-dt> Really this is where my workflow bar was going
<len-dt> It is a panel that can change.
<scott-work> i was just asking your expectations about how often changes would be required based on work flows
<len-dt> scott-work, I think the availability of the software will dictate when and where it gets used.
<len-dt> as people have it to use, new ideas of how will show up, extensions will get made.
<scott-work> oh, i agree
<scott-work> but based on the current application sets i'm not sure too much needs to be done for different setups
<scott-work> i was just curious as to people's expectations about how many would need to be made
<len-dt> The thing when starting is to come up with a good framework for storing the workflow so those extensions don't require a rework of the whole thing.
<len-dt> I think in some ways many of the workflows we support (including graphics ones) have a lot of the same needs
<scott-work> agreed, in fact i'm working on a blog post that basically says the same thing (i.e. develop a flexible and/or extensible framework rather than hard code a static solution)
<scott-work> I found this very interesting video about music synthesis on Bob Owsinski's blog: http://bobbyowsinski.blogspot.com/2012/08/new-musical-instrument-monday-ractable.html  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0h-RhyopUmc
<scott-work> click last link for video
<len-dt> scott-work, that could be a nice IF for audio.... as opposed to sound gen.
<len-dt> I was thinking a drawing tablet could be too.
<scott-work> len-dt: IF?
<scott-work> i wonder if patchage or jack connections can be made an applet too
<scott-work> this would put most jack infrastructure functionality in the panel rather than another application in the window list
<len-dt> scott-work, should I have made ui? User interface
<scott-work> ah, i understand
#ubuntustudio-devel 2012-08-23
<len-dt> ailo, how goes? I don't suppose you have seen the logs from earlier?
<ailo> len-dt: For some reason my server, which hosts this irssi client sometimes falls asleep
<ailo> I'll check..
<ailo> What Scott is talking about concerning jack is pretty much what I'm aiming for with -controls
<ailo> Simple jack control from an applet (start|stop), and "connections" which opens patchage
<ailo> Patchage needs to be opened in no-start-jack-automatically mode
<ailo> Also, one might consider readapting patchage to be as plugin, so that only some of the code would need to be custom
<ailo> About the workflow panel..
<ailo> len-dt: I still think the only good answer is a dedicated software for it, like your panel
<ailo> I'm on a usb install of lubuntu precise at the moment. One thing that seems to be a lot different is cpu freq
<ailo> It likes to stay on lowest, and tries to quite agressively with the ondemand option
<ailo> Both cores are fluctiating even when I have a few flash videos playing. They hardly stay at full juice, and one of them is often down at 800MHz. Seems quite effective
<len-dt> ailo, patchage... does it handle alsa midi connections as well? or does a2j have to run?
<len-dt> I agree about the workflow panel for two reasons: one the panels we have are not made for switching on the go, so it would be a hack. The panels we do have _are_ made to be changed by the user... and those changes stay even after a distro upgrade. Our own app can have system workflows we can change from release to release... or add with a meta. The user could add their own too.
<len-dt> ailo, I found even with qtractor, 4 synths and hydrogen, I could run at forced 800MHz on my netbook. (single core)
<len-dt> I didn't try two flash videos at a time, but one was not even 50% cpu.
<ailo> len-dt: Patchage is both midi and audio in the same view
<ailo> Haven't yet explored it much more. It autostarts jack if you don't give it a flag
<ailo> I like it since it's mostly just a jack connections app
<ailo> Would like to just keep that part
<len-dt> ailo, I meant does patchage do both jack mid and alsa midi.
<ailo> len-dt: Yep
<ailo> len-dt: It can also change frame/period while running
<ailo> It can't save connections, but I would assume it is, or will be ladish compatible
<ailo> It should be able to save, but it's disfunctional on this install anyway
<knome> us website now has a favicon
<smartboyhw> astraljava: You here?
<smartboyhw> News: The ISO QA Tracker declared the ISO images of the 12.04.1 builds READY!
<smartboyhw> strange: no one goes to test the amd64 images...But 2 or 3 tested i386...Real weird!
<smartboyhw> I mean no one except me for amd64
<len-dt> smartboyhw, That is an interesting fact. So there are actually still lots of people using i386 machines.
<smartboyhw> len-dt: Uh oh
<len-dt> This is interesting because it is getting hard to buy 32 but machines besides atom based.
<smartboyhw> len-dt: That's true
<smartboyhw> o/ scott-worj
<scott-work> thanks knome for fixing the favicon!
<smartboyhw> scott-work: The ISO images is declared ready
<scott-work> hi smartboyhw 
<scott-work> good :)
<len-dt> hi scott-work we were just noticing that there are more tests on 32nit machines
<len-dt> *bit
<smartboyhw> Only me on amd64
<len-dt> I was thinking I was the only odd one with 32 bit HW, but I guess there is still a lot out there tha is 32 bit
<len-dt> scott-work, both ailo and I feel it would be better (maybe easier as well) to make our own panel/workflow app, than to muck with the panel(s) we already have
 * len-dt has played around with other panels besides just xfce
<smartboyhw> len-dt: +1
<scott-work> len-dt: hmmmm, i don't know about a new test, nothing in -release channel mentions it from what i can see (although i only logged on)
<smartboyhw> New test?
<len-dt> There is no new test
<scott-work> sorry, did i misread your comment?
<smartboyhw> scott-work: He meant to implement another panel besides xfce
<len-dt> There has been talk that some flavours will only come with 64bit kernel
<scott-work> oh, i see what you are saying (sorry, i got phone call and people at my desk while reading)
<smartboyhw> len-dt: Really? Not us, I think
<scott-work> len-dt: i'm pretty agnostic about implementation, but i ask one big thing
<scott-work> len-dt: i would ask that we clearly define what we are trying to do and make sure it makes sense before we go willy-nilly into coding
<len-dt> server will come with either a 64b server k or 32b generic
<smartboyhw> Well, server is better in 64-bit.
<len-dt> Only if you have the HW to support it
<scott-work> i have serious concerns about how some are trying to revive -controls without being able to say what its purpose would be
<len-dt> a lot of small servers are whatever HW is left over.... 32 bit
<scott-work> i feel very, very strongly that we need to have a *very* clearly defined goal for our app(s) before we code and implement it
<smartboyhw> scott-work: Agree. +1
<len-dt> That is a good thought.
<scott-work> i have equally large concerns that we might be trying to fit too much into -controls (or possibly any single app)
<smartboyhw> :)
<len-dt> scott-work, I would not worry about that unless it is something we expect to leave running
<scott-work> i don't think -controls should be for 1) setting user in audio group, 2) getting a kernel, 3)starting/setting jack, 4) adjusting workflows, 5) installing new work flows, etc
<len-dt> 1) is ok IMO, setting jack could be ok, but not starting. getting a kernel? I think we ship what we ship.
<smartboyhw> I agree setting Jack. People having problems in Ubuntu Forums about jack mainly
<len-dt> adjusting workflows to me would include installing... sort of. Most WFs should be installed by a meta that includes the SW needed
<len-dt> starting WFs should be a separate (small quick) app
<ailo> -controls is all about settings. If you can't make settings with it, what is it good for?
<len-dt> ailo, I agree
<smartboyhw> o/ ailo. I agree
<len-dt> We have different words, controls/config but they mean the same thing
<ailo> There are two things I have in mind for -controls. 1. it should be simple and help the user easily configure the system on any ubuntu derived distro (not only Ubuntu Studio). 2. it doesn't matter if it has more than it needs, as we need feedback from users to find out what features are needed and which are not.
<ailo> I'm making it plugin based
<smartboyhw> ailo: Complete agree from me. It works. 
<len-dt> Even us as devs need to have it so we can look at it
<ailo> So, it's not one huge application
<len-dt> ailo, by plugin you mean that the plugin is called just as needed?
<ailo> len-dt: I mean, I'm splitting it up in many packages.
<ailo> There's a main package that will create an applet in the panel
<ailo> Each plugin will populate the applet, or add to windows that are opened from the applet
<ailo> It could also be put in a worflow panel
<ailo> I mean, instead of the main panel
<ailo> scott-work: I really don't understand your standpoint in this. If you want something done, you have to do it. 
<smartboyhw> ailo: +1
<ailo> You can't plan things in detail before hand
<ailo> scott-work: But, if you feel you'd want to, I won't stop you
<ailo> I'm thinking about creating a one for all audio control interface. Simple as can be. If someone needs something more advanced, the other applications will still be available. 
<ailo> As a part of the applet
<ailo> Also, we've been talking about modes
<ailo> I'd like to add that too
<smartboyhw> ailo: Are you sure you can deal with so many things at once?
<ailo> I'm also making two versions of the whole thing. I'm pushing a more general version into Debian, calling it something like "pro-audio-controls"
<ailo> So, even if for some reason it is not approved, it will be available in Ubuntu anyway
<ailo> I mean, approved for Ubuntu Studiop
<smartboyhw> Wow wow wow, ailo, I am seriously wondering that your brain is full of code now:)
<ailo> smartboyhw: It's not that much code really. But of course, it takes some time to write it
<smartboyhw> LOL
<ailo> scott-work: I think one big problem in how you think about Ubuntu Studio is you are not worrying about any other debian/ubuntu based distro in the equation. To me, the whole purpose of Ubuntu Studio is to improve multimedia on Ubuntu based distros generally, and serve as an example of a well configured version of it
<smartboyhw> ailo: YEAH!@
<smartboyhw> That's why I like Ubuntu Studio.
<smartboyhw> Strange: So is it ailo and len-dt and me vs. scott-work now?
<ailo> It would be d slightly ifferent, if Ubuntu Studio was not an official derivative.
<ailo> smartboyhw: I think you might be in your own team ;)
<smartboyhw> Yep, but since now it is:)
<smartboyhw> ailo: What da?
<smartboyhw> ailo: What do you mean?:(
<ailo> scott-work: If you want to realize your ideas about workflows, I say, go the full length. Stopp messing with XFCE menus and panels, to try to find a shortcut. 
<ailo> And, as always, if you want to collaborate on something, document first
<ailo> Otherwise, it doesn't exist
<smartboyhw> !
<len-dt> ailo, I think because we are doing something new we need to have code we can look at and try out.
<smartboyhw> len-dt: Yeah. I'm willing to try it out
<scott-work> ailo: my point is pretty simple, i believe - i don't want -controls to be a "catch all" for any functionality that we might want to incorporate
<len-dt> So I need to do my own PPA so I can have other people try out what I have
<scott-work> ailo: i'm not planning everything out, i think i'm doing some common sense activities, thinking about what we are trying to accomplish before we start
<holstein> scott-work: i saw your ping yesterday
<scott-work> ailo: i think it would be beneficial to have a clear set of goals (issues we want to address and possibly conditions of success to gauge if we have address the issue) before we get it all done
<holstein> scott-work: i think i would need to see the xsession idea to really wrap my brain around it
<len-dt> holstein, that is the thing. we need something to look at and try.
<scott-work> holstein: len-dt explained to me that not using xsessions would be a better approach
<smartboyhw> Wow, that's almost the most active discussion since I joined here:)
<smartboyhw> I want to try new things:) That's why I like testing
<ailo> scott-work: As len-dt said, as long as there isn't anything to testrun, or even documentation that can give a picture of what something does, it's hard to have an opinion about it
<ailo> scott-work: I'm making the application nevertheless, and I believe my approach is as optimal as can be from all angles
<ailo> scott-work: Plugin based means it can be whatever you want
<smartboyhw> :)
<len-dt> scott-work, if I had to logout/in every time I changed functions... I would not use that functionallity
<holstein> http://iso.qa.ubuntu.com/qatracker/milestones/230/builds is this the current 12.04.1 page?
<smartboyhw> Yep
<smartboyhw> 2 people for i386 (one is len-dt), one person for amd64 (me)
<len-dt> change of workflow should be able to happen with one click
<holstein> smartboyhw: not where im looking.. says we are done, and xubuntu has a few cases left
<smartboyhw> True, I'm testing Xubuntu alternate amd64 now:)
<holstein> smartboyhw: you just asked the xubuntu-dev channel for help testing the iso's?
<smartboyhw> holstein: Good work
<smartboyhw> True
<smartboyhw> I did, no one is testing Alternate for them
<holstein> oh i see... to see if anyone is one it already... i usually mark myself early... just like when im working on the newsletter
<smartboyhw> Good work means the e-mail you just sent
<holstein> i put my name on the articles im about to start working on so we dont duplicate efforts
<smartboyhw> I'm thinking that my CPU is going to explode soon due to too much usage on testing OSes.
<holstein> hehe... work it!
<len-dt> scott-work, ailo changing workflow: 1) close or at least alert the user of any non-workflow apps.
<len-dt> 2) start or ask user if they want to start base processes such as jack/a2j
<len-dt> 3) if it is a session based workflow, start a session (may require user input to decide which session/project))
<len-dt> That is maybe a bit simplified...
<smartboyhw> len-dt: Good job:)
<ailo> smartboyhw: I wasn't able to answer your PM's as this nick isn't properly logged in, just so you know
<smartboyhw> Oh
<ailo> smartboyhw: Don't worry too much about what I say though. 
<smartboyhw> LOL
<scott-work> len-dt: just for the record, i was thinking about using changing xsessions when changing modes, rather than just work flows (which is why i was querying you about how often you thought about changing modes vs. work flows yesterday)
<scott-work> but of course, it appears that changing xsessions is certainly not an optimal solution :P
<len-dt> scott-work, that is why we need to know _what_ has to change.
<scott-work> agreed
<len-dt> Changing menus is probably not that hard
<len-dt> changing what is running system wise is not that hard either... but starts to get distro specific real quick. This takes away from Ubuntu's "give back to the community" ideals
<smartboyhw> :)
<len-dt> I think both ailo and I want something that can be used in *ix systems in general not just US.
<scott-work> len-dt: to be honest, if an stand-alone app is used for work flows then we probably don't need to worry about adjusting menus, doe we?
<len-dt> I don't know, scott-work, the only way to find out is to build it and try it on real projects
<smartboyhw> len-dt: Let's see:)
<scott-work> i'm sure i don't explain myself very well, but i'll try
<scott-work> i mentioned before about defining what the problems are that we are addressing, and conditions for successfully addressing the problem.
<scott-work> this is implementation agnostic. both in sense of what method is used to implement and the actual action
<scott-work> for example, work flows are not immediately obvious to user could be the problem
<scott-work> without talking about panels/apps (implementation) or changing modes/menus (actions), we can still define the problem and...
<scott-work> "having a visual element on the desktop (one that would draw user's attention and invite investigation" could define the success condition
<len-dt> The reason I don't know if having a menu change would help is that I was thinking that a workflow pannel would have the main apps on it in the order of use, but extra tools and utilities may be better not cluttering that up and so a mini menu might be usefule
<scott-work> this is how i like to approach problems, in an somewhat abstract way
<scott-work> len-dt: right!
<scott-work> this is why i was asking people to reimagine the desktop, without constraints, yesterday to envision a perfect future state of what we would like to use
<len-dt> Some of us are unable to think that way and need a picture at least, but prefereably a working app to try
<scott-work> len-dt: i understand, ailo helped me quite a bit to see some of my deficiencies
<len-dt> It is easy to come up with ideas, but there are tons of apps that on first look are really, really useful, but once installed _never_ get used.
<scott-work> agreed, totally
<scott-work> which is why i wanted to make sure that we are actually solving a problem and that people will want to use our solution
<scott-work> oaky, i need to finish talking to people before a meeting but i'll be back in a few hours and hopefully continue this conversation
<len-dt> scott-work, when you get back... xfce panel is happy to get it's menu via a link
<len-dt> Rather than put this in the bottom/extra panel (which some people just throw away anyway) I would put it right next to the tray. Call it a context menu. With just applications related to the workflow.
<len-dt> It would seem like a tray icon.
<len-dt> An example of where this would be useful (ok might be) is for things like mixers. I wouldn't want a mixer starter in a workflow panel because there are so many for different audio cards.
 * scott-work is about to go downstairs for meeting
<scott-work> but i wanted to put this out there...
<ailo> len-dt: It would be cool if the proper mixer would appear only if its' device was loaded and present
<scott-work> seeing jackpanel application made me reimagine the desktop for audio and think, "what _should_ be an applet on the panel for default? what do we use ALL the time for audio?"
<scott-work> i think jack controls would be helpful for one
<scott-work> ailo: very true
<scott-work> should the work flows "menu" or "icon" what whatever be an applet in the top panel?
<smartboyhw> Well, bye bye now
<scott-work> by smartboyhw 
<scott-work> i am also heading downstairs for the meeting now
<len-dt> so having a menu to take care of it might be handy... or the user might just reach for the main menu they are used to.
<len-dt> ailo, ya, it would be nice. What are the downsides of that?
<ailo> len-dt: The only problem is making sure a database of devices for the functionality is up to date
<ailo> One would need to list them manually
<len-dt> What if a USB device is plugged in. the mixer would have to change/get added on the fly
<ailo> There are services for that
<ailo> Just like how nautilus updates its' contents, if you create a file using a terminal
<ailo> Well, maybe not "just like"
<ailo> I don't know how exactly, but surely it can be done
<ailo> That's probably not the first thing you'd want to develop though
<len-dt> Ya, it should be able to be done. how often do we want to scan for new devices so we can add new devices?
<ailo> Even though, I think it's important to keep things like that in mind, cause that will enable you to strategically design the software to be able to use such functionality later, if added
<ailo> len-dt: Any usb devices that have dedicated mixers, btw?
<ailo> len-dt: One way to do it is to search for devices each time you open the menu
<len-dt> ailo, I am not sure. Many of them have no mixer... levels are controlled on the box.
<ailo> That way, you don't need any particular service. The only downside may be that opening the menu is slower
<ailo> len-dt: But, I'm imagining dedicated software now, not XFCE menus. Not sure what you are thinking of right now
<len-dt> I was thinking some of each :) a panel/dock that has the major apps for the function and an xfce menu for utilities.
<len-dt> However, having the workflow start the applications needed is another way to go.
<len-dt> that would be what session managers are for.... but for graphics and publishing too
<ailo> A few years back, I imagined a panel much like the Unity panel, but unlike unity, one that was totally dynamic. In the upper corner, you'd have a global control/button. Say, you point your mouse there, and the whole panel becomes global. As soon as you take it away, the panel becomes customized for what application is up. You push it, you get a global menu system. The custom mode could system controls in the lower corner, that are 
<len-dt> Though maybe for graphics or video or whatever things are done more in a sequential manor. In audio (in Linux) it is normal to use a number of apps at the same time
<len-dt> ailo, that was what I tried to do with my workflow panel
<ailo> As for the exact content in the middle, it's hard to imagine off the bat. It needs to be worked out, by getting down and dirty with the code
<len-dt> I didn't think of using hovering to bring up the global menu though :)
<ailo> Me neither, in the past
<ailo> That is something you get from gnome-shell
<len-dt> or unity for that matter
<ailo> Something to condider is that some applications may fit many workflows
<len-dt> OK, why would that be odd?
<ailo> If you make the panel show only a certain workflow, it gets confused if you want to use an application for a different workflow
<ailo> I really don't have a clear idea about the details. I do think the user should be able to customize stuff
<ailo> Let's say, the workflow content is just a set of launchers. And we have our standard workflows with applications we have chosen for them. A user might want to create their own custom workflows, adding whatever applications they want
<ailo> Didn't you do something like that? adding starters from a list in a file?
<ailo> Aside from launchers, one would want to have some system controls. Jack control for audio (and perhaps choosable also for video)
<ailo> I'd put those at the bottom
<ailo> The launchers should be docks for the applications too, or whatever you call it. 
<ailo> After an application is launched, pushing the icon should only bring that app up front. Not start a new one, unless doing right-click, open new
<ailo> Just like the mac/gnome-shell/unity panels
<ailo> Perhaps a tool button at the bottom. A generic toolbox for workflows, where you can add controls or starters however you want. Mix anything with anything
<ailo> Finally, the workflow is actually more like a profile
<ailo> Another solution with hovering, is to expand the panel to show all the workflows(profiles) next to each other. Important to have the possibility to delete some, since probably no one will use them all
<ailo> I could imagine using the panel not just for multimedia, but for everything
<ailo> A wizard of some kind would be good to have. One that creates a template for you.
<ailo> How would it work, if you'd combine menus with started applications, in the same panel?
<ailo> The docks and menus would be like the submenus
<ailo> like the submenus in the main menu
<ailo> len-dt: I do think what you have is a good foundation, which allows for these kind of ideas.
<ailo> So, all that is missing is just starting to develop some of those
<ailo> I mean, anyones ideas..
<ailo> I'm sleeping early today. bb refreshed, tomorrow
<len-dt> Gn then ailo .
<scott-work> len-dt: a single application for work flows could also control a panel (perhaps on the side looking like a "dock"), and you could set the "mode" and a different panel would be loaded
<scott-work> which would only show the pertinent work flows
<scott-work> damn, it's very weird reading ailo's comments, it's like he's been reading my not published blog post :P
<scott-work> here is what i had been working on: http://paste.ubuntu.com/1162983/
<scott-work> wow, i wrote that on my laptop using libre office write during a vacation trip, pasted that into blogger, and now pasted it into pastebin....that did wonders for the formatting :P
<len-dt> scott-work, I think each US meta should come with its own workflow(s) as needed. As such each workflow configuration needs to be it's own file
<len-dt> The files a meta comes with would be in /usr/share/something
<len-dt> each user would have a workflow directory in .config/something/
<len-dt> this directory would have both workflow files but also a config file. System workflows that are not used or replaced with a user custom one would be recorded here so that system WF would not be displayed.
<len-dt> That way if a new meta is downloaded it's workflows would show up by default
<scott-work> oh, interesting idea...you are saying include the work flow configuration along with the meta, i was viewing it as another package that would have the configuration file in it...hmmmm
<len-dt> scott-work, what I am saying by talking "nuts and bolts" is that the current panel gets disconnected at install time
<scott-work> i was worried about this due to the ubiquity plugin and if a meta was not installed, your method may solve this problem
<len-dt> That is the first time a user logs in the current panel gets set in stone and no change to the system template will show up.
<scott-work> using the work flow app as a frame work (as ailo said) and view things as plugins (as ailo said) for which the meta's provide the "plugin", this might work very nicely indeed
<len-dt> We don;t want our workflows to be unchangable, we want both user cusomisation as well as the system to be able to add things.
<len-dt> I think a configuration utility should allow reset. If a user customizes a workflow they should be able to go back to stock if they want.
<len-dt> So there are two kinds of cutom workflows, those started from scratch as new WFs and those that modify an exsiting WF
<len-dt> there could be a third kind that uses an existing WF as a starting template but does not replace it.
<scott-work> oooogh, really good idea len-dt ! a "reset button" is a must
<scott-work> this is the kind of abstract thinking i like! :P
<stochastic> hi all
<scott-work> hi stochastic :)
<len-dt> hello
<stochastic> the release notes for 12.04.1 seem pointless - it's just a bug fix release
<stochastic> I can't even find any Ubuntu 12.04.1 release notes
 * stochastic isn't sure if we should even publish them
<knome> stochastic, they are integrated to the 12.04 notes
<knome> xubuntu didn't change anything
<stochastic> I don't think we need to publish anything then.
<knome> tell that to skaet @ #ubuntu-release and she will stop worrying :)
<stochastic> knome should we publish the previous release notes on the website (those that haven't reached EOL)?  I notice only 12.04 is published, but people might be interested in seeing the earlier release notes
<stochastic> they're written as drafts currently behind the scenes
<knome> umm
<knome> if you think that helps, then go for it
<knome> we did that
<knome> (xubuntu)
<stochastic> okay I think it'd be good to do.  It gives new users proof that this isn't our first release too.
 * stochastic will take care of that
<stochastic> scott-work, I was thinking about how we've been pairing down our meta packages to only the key tools and it gave me an idea
<stochastic> I personally like to have lots of options for my productions but understand this isn't optimal for our ISO purposes.   Maybe we should look into creating a audio-extras meta that would include all the bells and whistles.  Similarly with the other metas
<stochastic> ^^ or if scott-work is busy others can share their opinions
<stochastic> those metas would obviously not ship with our ISO, they'd just be useful for people wanting all options for sequencers or notation programs or wave editors or etc...
<scott-work> stochastic: i believe that is similar to what len-dt has mentioned before :)
<scott-work> stochastic: are you basing this on work flows, perhaps? ones that are created but we don't necessarily want to ship be default?
<scott-work> i think it sounds like a great idea
<stochastic> scott-work, no, not on workflows but rather on the plethora of tools in the repos that a new user might want to explore
<stochastic> I think it would be useful for the extras package to stay away from the workflows idea simply because that process is a great tool for limiting the applications to just the best or primary ones but these packages should contain everything else
<scott-work> stochastic: what would be the criteria for selecting the applications?
<stochastic> I would say any package that could be seen as multimedia production related and functional
<scott-work> that could be a *very* large package, no?
<stochastic> well we'd segment them into audio/video/graphics/photography/etc... extras
<stochastic> but yes they'd be very bloated
<stochastic> the impetus behind this would be that some users can find workflows that they prefer that us all-knowing devs haven't even conceived of yet (or haven't determined fit into our meta structures)
<len-dt> stochastic, what I have done instead of that (and it can be changed) is to add an menu item that opens software center with a list of things the user may want to install.
<stochastic> I guess that's a cleaner way of doing it len-dt
<len-dt> If we can ever get our -default-setting released, I would like other people to look at it
<stochastic> I'd love to see it
<stochastic> :)
<stochastic> all in due time I assume
<stochastic> is FF today?
<len-dt> I don't know. But this has been commited for over a month now I think.
<stochastic> okay
<stochastic> I'm pretty sure FF and 12.04.1 happened on the same day irc
<len-dt> micahg, said he was doing it... but I haven't see him for a bit
 * stochastic won't hold his breath but will expect it done soonish
<stochastic> :)
<micahg> len-dt: yeah, I'm on vacation, but unlike my other vacations, I've been busy with family :0
<micahg> but will try to get to it
#ubuntustudio-devel 2012-08-24
<len-dt> micahg, if you see this, do you want me to ask someone else? (who?) or would it take them a lot more time because you know where things are? i'm ok either way.
<micahg> part of the problem is there are only a handful of people with commit access to the repo and upload rights
<len-dt> Ya, I figured. Just so long as it makes it into 12.10...
<len-dt> micahg, I have watched some of the traffic in the release channel. No worries.
<micahg> yeah, I don't see feature freeze as an issue for flavor packages that don't affect anyone else
<smartboyhw> knome: Did you update the download links in ubuntustudio.org?
<smartboyhw> The download links are in http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/ubuntustudio/releases/12.04.1/release/
<smartboyhw> ailo-w: Do you have the code to ubuntustudio.org?
<ailo-w> smartboyhw: No. Why?
<ailo-w> I think it's being uploaded somehwere, or perhaps already is
<smartboyhw> THe download links are not updated
<ailo-w> smartboyhw: I can edit the website directly. No need for code
<ailo-w> smartboyhw: What is not updated about them?
<smartboyhw> OK, please help to update the download links
<smartboyhw> http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/ubuntustudio/releases/12.04.1/release/
<smartboyhw> It's still 12.04
<ailo-w> Aha. It's released now
<ailo-w> smartboyhw: I'll fix it right away
<smartboyhw> Thanks
<smartboyhw> I'm writing an email to the mail list too for an announcement
<ailo-w> smartboyhw: Done
<smartboyhw> thx
<smartboyhw> ailo-w: Actually what's the big diff between 12.04 and 12.04.1?
<ailo-w> smartboyhw: What I heard, not much. I haven't been keeping track. I think len-dt and the Xubuntu folks would know
<ailo-w> smartboyhw: You sure you should announce it? I think someone was preparing something for that already
<ailo-w> smartboyhw: Ask ScottL__ 
<ailo-w> smartboyhw: Don't make official announcements without checking with someone first
<smartboyhw> OK, I will just save the email first
<smartboyhw> ailo-w: I may be stupid but then is there actually Ubuntu Studio for Wubi?
<smartboyhw> Stupid question here: Is there Ubuntu Studio on Wubi?
<holstein> smartboyhw: you can make any ubuntu into ubuntustudio, so you can use ubuntustudio with wubi
<smartboyhw> holstein: LOL okay
<holstein> i would probably try using the wubi.exe with the ubuntutsudio iso in the same directory
<holstein> i would expect that to install using our iso instead
<smartboyhw> holstein: Just installed 12.04.1 Ubuntu Studio:)
<scott-work> hi everyone, how are you doing today?
<holstein> \o/
<knome> hey scott-work 
#ubuntustudio-devel 2012-08-25
<smartboyhw> Why did I got such a lot of e-mail talking about build failure?
<smartboyhw> len-dt: Are you here?
<len-dt> almost
<smartboyhw> Do you know about the build error e-mails?
<len-dt> The key lines are always on the bottom.
<smartboyhw> Yeah, I'm a bit perplexed...No daily builds for now?
<len-dt> It looks like some packages have been up graded and others not.
<smartboyhw> Uh oh
<len-dt> It is beyond me though.
<smartboyhw> Yeah, it's ScottL and astraljava's job...
<len-dt> maybe not
<smartboyhw> Oh, then who's job is it:)
<len-dt> I don't know.
<smartboyhw> Ur.....
<len-dt> I am not an oracle...
<smartboyhw> len-dt: If you are, I will try to sell you :) LOL
<len-dt> Not for sale either... my wife would be miffed.(to put it mildly)
<smartboyhw> len-dt: Just for entertainment purposes. Anyway, hope the problem will be fixed soon:)
<len-dt> yes.
<smartboyhw> len-dt: Why do you think people like to use i386 builds, in reference to the testing results of Ubuntu Studio 12.04.1?
<len-dt> Like? I don't think it is choice. I can't run the 64bit build on any of my machines
<smartboyhw> len-dt: You don't have a 64-bit processor?
<len-dt> no
<smartboyhw> Oh, that's weird. How old are your machines? I'm only doing all my work from a 2-year-old Compaq Presario Notebook by HP.
<len-dt> My desktop is at least 8 years old (P4 I think) but the netbook is newer... however it has an atom CPU in it
<smartboyhw> Er, OK...........
<len-dt> I'm not sure how that would be "weird" though. Think about how long your personal experience with computers is. I started playing with them late 70s in school and early 80s as a hobby.
<smartboyhw> len-dt: OK
<smartboyhw> len-dt: Bye
<len-dt> bye
#ubuntustudio-devel 2012-08-26
<ailo> holstein: I'm a little curious why you always seem to want to make a point to new users that they might not need low latency capability.
<ailo> I'd say it's only a small amount of musicians who'd not need it
<smartboyhw> ailo: Maybe that he just likes the generic one:)
<ailo> smartboyhw: Please. I wasn't asking you. And that's not why.
<smartboyhw> :)
<ailo> holstein: At least at some point, you need it
<ailo> holstein: We can't help that that problem is as complicated as it is.
<ailo> holstein: The easy answer to people is always, install Ubuntu Studio, right?
<ailo> holstein: even at jack default settings, you might get xruns, if you're not running jack in realtime mode
<ailo> I mean, qjackctl default settings
<ailo> Which is almost the same thing
<len-dt> ailo, remember he also suggests jack is not always needed either.
<ailo> I don't believe that to be true for musicians, who will be using software that depend on jack
<len-dt> Yes.
<smartboyhw> len-dt: The main problems in the Ubuntu Studio section in Ubuntu Forums mainly involve Jack, that shows people using Ubuntu Studio do need Jack.
<len-dt> He has spent a lot of time helping people though and I think has found people who want to record some stereo sounds and think they need something really special rather than pulse and audacity.
<len-dt> I see that when he is talking to people on the forum who have trouble, he is trying to find out what they are trying to do. If they are doing something that requires special SW.
<len-dt> Trying to find the right tools to use match.
<len-dt> look at what he uses personally... it is low lat or RT.
<ailo> It's a little hard to double guess what people are after. If you don't ask them about it first.
<smartboyhw> Actually, then, a question: Is it possible for me NOW to install the generic kernel?
<len-dt> yup
<ailo> But, if someone says "full music production", you kind of anticipate that this person will be using jack software, and requires a reliable platform
<len-dt> yes to that too
<smartboyhw> Hmm, let me go and install a generic kernel and see if there's any diff:)
<ailo> holstein: I think you've done an awesome effort helping people out in general. I've just seen this tendency from you lately, that I guess is because of what len said - that often people are looking to only do one thing, which they don't need jack for
<len-dt> however, if the person's understanding of production is that they have never done any... having to learn ardour and jack and all the stuff that goes with it be fore they record _anything_ is probably not the best starting point.
<ailo> Good point
<len-dt> maybe recording the bands live gigs is a better start.... pulse and audacity
<len-dt> stereo off the board.
<ailo> I would still recommend for someone to learn the tools they are going to use, nevertheless
<ailo> If you need multitrack recording/mixing, you need to learn how to use a DAW
<len-dt> yes
<ailo> jack is a separate issue though
<ailo> You can use Ardour with alsa
<ailo> But turning jack on is not that complicated after all
<ailo> You can even let Ardour do it
<smartboyhw> ailo: I do agree, strangely those guys in Ubuntu Forums seemed perplexed...
<ailo> smartboyhw: I don't think turning jack on is the big problem
<smartboyhw> ailo: I said I don't think it is an problem, I said those guys in Ubuntu Forums has...
<len-dt> ailo, routing seems to be an issue for some though.
<ailo> len-dt: To Ardour channels, or in general?
<len-dt> For those of use who have played with recording to tape, jack is wonderful
<ailo> len-dt: I mean, if you're using routing with jack for other things, then there's no reason not to learn how that works
<len-dt> lots of people just getting into audio now are from the it just works set.
<smartboyhw> Hmm, a LOL thing: When I look at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/Artwork/OfficialPrecise it's still not yet filled in. Real weird since it's already 12.04.1:)
<ailo> I lied about ardour starting jack
<ailo> Maybe A3. Some software will do it
<ailo> smartboyhw: Maybe you can do it?
<ailo> smartboyhw: How's your documentation work coming along?
<smartboyhw> ailo: What? I am not reponsible for artwork. On the documentation, I'm better free after coming Wednesday, and I will hand it in around Sat or Sun:)
<len-dt> Of the linux music I have heard probably 75% of it is totally electronic... all synth. Many people seem to be looking for something more like LMMS
<ailo> smartboyhw: IÍ'm just making a point that this team is not big, and LOLing at unfinished work is not going to help finish it
<smartboyhw> Uh oh.
<ailo> smartboyhw: So, if you feel something needs to be done, and no one's doing it, you can always pick it up yourself
<smartboyhw> ailo: But where do I find the artwork?
<ailo> smartboyhw: Don't ask me. I don't care about that page
<knome> smartboyhw, if there is no artwork in the wiki, there is no artwork at all
<smartboyhw> Uh oh.
<knome> feel free to contribute, as ailo said.
<ailo> smartboyhw: Also, I'm reorganizing the wiki later this fall
<smartboyhw> ailo: Really? How?
<ailo> smartboyhw: It's in the blueprints
<smartboyhw> Uh oh, give me the blueprint link again:)
<knome> smartboyhw, can you find something yourself?
<ailo> smartboyhw: https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/topic-quantal-flavor-ubuntustudio
<smartboyhw> knome: Sorry.
<knome> smartboyhw, it's not helpful to ask others to fetch you everything and waste their time
<smartboyhw> knome: Again, I'm sorry. ailo: OK, I read the blueprint about documentation, but then there's really a lot of TODOs...
<len-dt> smartboyhw, yes
<knome> smartboyhw, that's how things are when somebody hasn't seriously started working on them.
<len-dt> pick one with no name beside it that interests you and go for it
<ailo> He's already working on one thing
<smartboyhw> len-dt: Almost all items has names:)
<smartboyhw> Let me write back my publishing documentation down:)
<len-dt> smartboyhw, in your testing of 12.10 ISOs have you noticed scroll bars on the install slideshow?
<smartboyhw> len-dt: Yep, new thing in ubiquity, I think
<len-dt> they showed up in 12.04, but I personally have not seen scroll bars on any test install I have done.
<smartboyhw> Uh oh.
<len-dt> ^^^  for about a month or two
<knome> len-dt, i saw them when i installed xubuntu on my laptop
<knome> len-dt, i'm going to tweak the xubuntu slideshow for Q though
<len-dt> this is a good thingg
<knome> len-dt, but still don't know what causes that...
<smartboyhw> I saw them in Ubuntu Desktop too.
<knome> len-dt, maybe cut the images to exact sizes, but i'm not sure how that relates, because xubuntu had them too even if the images were cut
<len-dt> I was thinking that upstream had fixed it because I haven't seen it for a while.
<len-dt> even testing 12.04.1, but I do get it on the original 12.04
<len-dt> when installing from live... looking at the main menu made them vanish
<ailo> I removed myself from some of the tasks. Don't even remember putting myself on them
<len-dt> knome, when was the last date you installed a xubuntu ISO
<knome> len-dt, it's not too long ago
<knome> len-dt, but the last time i saw them was when installing my laptop, start of this month
<ailo> smartboyhw: I would recommend you subscribe to the blueprints that you are interested in
<len-dt> 12.10 or 12.04?
<smartboyhw> Wait, I will subscribe them now:
<smartboyhw> :)
<knome> len-dt, 12.04
<knome> len-dt, maybe it's fixed. i don't know. haven't done too many 12.10 tests yet
<len-dt> Ya, it was a problem there. I was just wondering because there is a blueprint item for that I was hoping to make DONE
<smartboyhw> Wait, I do see a fix scroll bar in ubiquity slide show item in the liveDVD blueprint
<len-dt> Yes smartboyhw 
<smartboyhw> len-dt: Sorry, I pressed enter a second after you
<len-dt> There have been a few things to fix that got fixed upstream.
<len-dt> As I said I haven't seen them for a while, so they may have been fixed. It is something all our alpha/beta tests should look for.
<smartboyhw> OK.
<smartboyhw> BTW, I think I will write a testcase soon for upgrading Ubuntu Studio, astraljava disabled it due to DE change, I think we can re-enable it for 12.10/
<smartboyhw> len-dt: I think I'll wait for a new build of Ubuntu Studio Quantal to test to see if scrollbars exist. Seems like there's build errors these days:(
<len-dt> Yes. 
<smartboyhw> Excuse me, big bug: How come when I click "Help" in Ubuntu Studio 12.04.1 Firefox says it can't find it? I am reporting this:(
<len-dt> It may be because we don't include ubuntu-docs.
<smartboyhw> True. Then what should we do? I'll report the bug now.
<len-dt> It is fixed in 12.10
<smartboyhw> Wait, what is this package named? I mean the help one.
<len-dt> smartboyhw, I think you mean the help icon on the main menu?
<smartboyhw> Yes
<len-dt> That is a different issue, it is fixed in 12.10 already
<smartboyhw> I know, then should I still report it?
<len-dt> No,  I don't think so. I did do a patch of the file involved forr 12.04, but interest in including it was not there
<len-dt> It seemed that fixing it in 12.10 was acceptale.
<len-dt> https://code.launchpad.net/~ubuntustudio-dev/ubuntustudio-default-settings/UbuntuStudio.precise
<smartboyhw> len-dt: I'm seriously wondering: Maybe you didn't use an Launchpad account to do the patch?
<smartboyhw> Because I looked at the revisions part, and it sounds like you're not using an Launchpad account to upload the patch.
<knome> smartboyhw, seriously, that's the least of the worries. he HAD to use a launchpad account to be able to upload the branch.
<smartboyhw> Hmm, weird.
<knome> len-dt, 'bzr launchpad-login len-ovenwerks'
<smartboyhw> But why I can't even click on his link to his Launchpad profile in the Revisions part?
<knome> smartboyhw, because the launchpad integration isn't working perfectly.
<smartboyhw> len-dt: Use 'bzr launchpad-login' first to check if you are using launchpad.
<smartboyhw> knome: Uh oh, that's why
<knome> smartboyhw, but please, stop wasting peoples' time. he was able to push, so what if his nick isn't linked?
<smartboyhw> Oh.
<knome> thanks for understanding
<smartboyhw> Sorry again knome. :(
<holstein> ailo: i dont know that you do need lowlatency
<holstein> sometimes i do sand sometimes i dont
<holstein> i feel like its a waste of time for me to show someone, and for someone to care about how to get lowlatency for 90% of what we all do
<holstein> its really just live soft synths and live effects that need "realtime" ish latency
<holstein> other than than, its a non-issue
<holstein> ailo: i feel like the out-of-the-box config is something we all have thought long and hard about, and its good for most tasks
#ubuntustudio-devel 2013-08-19
<cub> I've run a lot of tests, but not much success for the screen reader support so far.
 * cub broke his saucy :(
<knome> oi! don't break it!
<cub> stupid. I installed Gnome to try out Orca. Then removed Gnome again but something else probably was removed as well.
<cub> Well, it's not entirely broken. Just won't start xmir again. :P and well, other stuff I haven't noticed yet
 * cub thought adding Orca would be easy since it's in the repos
<knome> my experience about accessibility stuff is that it's never easy, and unfortunately, rarely works
<cub> it seems so. Perhaps better to get Vinux to include the low-latency kernel instead. ;)
<cub> the Ubuntu Accessibility team seems to have ceased to exist. At least they are very hard to reach.
<knome> heh
<xequence> cub: There's one guy who does some work on that
<xequence> he used to be a ubuntu studio team member
<cub> yes Luke.
<xequence> yes
<xequence> themuso is his nickname
<knome> yes, that
<xequence> you can find him on #pulseaudio too
<cub> I tried to ping him on IRC. Now I emailed the list, but if no answer there I will try to email him directly.
<xequence> He can be a bit slow at answering sometimes :)
<cub> there is too many factors so far. Is it not working because I'm doing something wrong, or is it a xfce issue, or a saucy issue, or an Orca issue, or all of the above? :P
<xequence> Did you try a clean install of regular UBuntu?
<cub> I've tried different version of US, Xubuntu, Ubuntu and Debian Wheezy with Xfce
<xequence> this stuff should work from a VM, no?
<cub> xequence, yes, it somewhat worked but didn't read things correct.
<xequence> easier to manage a VM. take a snapshot, and you can roll back changes
<cub> yes, last test I have been running in VM. But since it didn't work at first I tried on a real installation just to rule out if it was a VM issue
<xequence> ah, if it's not fully working, then it's probably not a good idea then 
<knome> xmir won't run in a VM afaik
<cub> best results so far: Ubuntu Studio 12.04 and Debian Wheezy.
<cub> no the xmir I run on my eee pc installation.
<knome> :)
<cub> well, did, until I broke it. :P
<knome> haha
<cub> the common thing with US 12.04 and Debian Wheezy is Xfce 4.8. That might be it.
<cub> how does it work with Feature Freeze? Could one get an app included and still work out the kinks with it until release?
<knome> sure, bug fixes will be allowed after FF
 * cub also wonders if he is doing a lot of work only to provide accessibility for one person...
<cub> Is there any documentation on how I go about to get like Orca icluded?
<xequence> cub: we just add it to our seed file
<xequence> cub: seed files include all the applications that get preinstalled on the ISO
<xequence> cub: https://code.launchpad.net/~ubuntustudio-dev/ubuntu-seeds/ubuntustudio.saucy
<cub> xequence, but someone has to do some magic to get it into the seed file?
<xequence> cub: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/Seeds
<cub> ah tnx
<xequence> you get the source. add/remove one item, make a commit
<xequence> in your case, you'll need to upload to your own branch and make a merge request
<xequence> bzr push lp:~<username>/ubuntu-seeds/ubuntustudio.saucy
<xequence> I think that should work
<xequence> then make a merge request
<xequence> cub: One commit per change. Once you're done, push the code
<xequence> cub: I should add you to the contributors team
<cub> I'll read up and give it a go.
<xequence> cub: What's your LP name?
<cub> xequence, jimmy-sjolund
<cub> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/cub
<xequence> cub: I added you to two teams, ~ubuntustudio, which is a user team, and ~ubuntustudio-contributors, which is like junior devs
<cub> Nice, thank you.
<xequence> cub: I added a seed branch for contributors
<cub> ok
<xequence> cub: so, if you didn't already get the source, you could get this one instead
<xequence> https://code.launchpad.net/~ubuntustudio-contributors
<xequence> bzr branch lp:~ubuntustudio-contributors/ubuntu-seeds/ubuntustudio.saucy
<xequence> then when you push, just do: bzr push
<xequence> Just e
<xequence> sorry
<xequence> easier to work that way, I think
<xequence> since all contributors and devs will have access to those branches
<cub> we'll see what I'll manage to set up then. :)
<xequence> cub: In order to push code, you need to have your ssh key both in LP and your ~/.ssh folder - usually id_rsa
<xequence> well, the public keay goes to LP
<xequence> which is id_rsa.pub
<xequence> you could also do: bzr login-launchpad jimmys-sjolund, but it's not strictly needed
<xequence> never ever publish the private key of course (id_rsa)
<cub> yeah, it was part of the devel setup
<xequence> yes, but just reminding just in case :)
<smartboyhw> xequence, still at DebConf?
<xequence> smartboyhw: Last day was saturday
<xequence> I'm still in Switzerland though
<xequence> going back tomorrow
<smartboyhw> xequence, oh
<smartboyhw> xequence, so, what's your experience?
<xequence> smartboyhw: I got a good idea of how things work
<xequence> that was my first reason to go
<smartboyhw> xequence, great:)
<xequence> the other to get involved with the Debian Multimedia Blend
<smartboyhw> xequence, yeah, I hope to see your great creation soon:P
<smartboyhw> xequence, eh, we need to start 12.04.3 testing soon
<cub> smartboyhw, is the release this week?
<smartboyhw> cub, yes
<smartboyhw> Thursday
<smartboyhw> We can get it out easily
<cub> how can we test it?
<smartboyhw> cub, just test the live session and install the ISO
<smartboyhw> And report it at iso.qa.ubuntu.com
<smartboyhw> it = test results
<smartboyhw> Check out wiki.ubuntu.com/Testing/ISO/Walkthrough
 * smartboyhw is sort of an expert in ISO testing:P
<cub> I'm not. I can't even find the iso
<smartboyhw> cub, I will send an email to devel and users mailing list tmr
<smartboyhw> That will teach you 1. where to get it
<smartboyhw> 2. How
<smartboyhw> :P
<cub> but in reality, two days of testing seem a bit short. :P
<smartboyhw> cub, well, yeah, but that's ALWAYS the case.
<smartboyhw> That's why Ubuntu is relatively buggier than others:P
<smartboyhw> (All Linux distros are buggy, but some are more buggy than others -- Maxim)
<cub> that's not good. We wouldn't want to break things for LTS users (or any user for that matter)
<smartboyhw> cub, yeah
<smartboyhw> Unfortunately, that's what happens.
<cub> How come? Because the release was not available until late? Or because everyone has been too busy to look at it?
<DarkEra> not that i can do anything but what's up with the failing iso's since the last couple of days
<smartboyhw> DarkEra, package problems.
<smartboyhw> Actually, conflicts
<DarkEra> that much?
<smartboyhw> DarkEra, yes, frankly
<DarkEra> 6 days in a row isn't good
<smartboyhw> DarkEra, because we haven't got time to fix it...
<cub> Isn't there a limit on how many days in a row it can go on before the iso is dropped or something?
<smartboyhw> cub, DarkEra: No...
<smartboyhw> I'm asking the Ubuntu Release Team for help
<cub> No? I thought I remember someone saying that when the build was failing the last time
<smartboyhw> cub, well if there's a problem with it before release then it won't be released
<smartboyhw> But, we can still solve it well before Beta 1.
<DarkEra> smartboyhw, i see
<DarkEra> got to go, might be back later again
<xequence> smartboyhw: the problem with our ISOs is most probably the libav packages
<xequence> new ones should appear there shortly
<smartboyhw> xequence, great:)
<xequence> there's libav and libav-extra. one of them is the wrong version, I think
<smartboyhw> xequence, thank you:)
<madeinkobaia> Hi all : )
#ubuntustudio-devel 2013-08-20
<micahg> gah sorry, forgot to upload, doign so now
<OvenWerks> micahg: that was two hours ago now but thank you if you are still up. (The branches don't show the release yet, so I am not sure if it is finished)
<OvenWerks> Yahoo, new libagv-extras are out. Maybe our ISO will build now.
<smartboyhw> zequence, back from Switzerland?
<smartboyhw> Hey cub
<cub> Good morning smartboyhw ;)
<cub> I'm reading up on seeds so I can try to include gnome-orca in US before FF. Big breakthrough. :P
<cub> Also got some good feedback from the ubuntu-accessibility maillist from visually impaired people on how the get Orca to work in Xfce.I haven't had time to test the different suggestions yet though.
<smartboyhw> cub, sure:)
<smartboyhw> hey DarkEra
<DarkEra> hi smartboyhw 
<zequence_> hi. Did you know Brussels airport is so cheap with electricity you have to cykle to ccharge your laptop
<cub> haha
<zequence_> I forgot to bring my sweat pants
<zequence_> Probaby got a big wet stain in the back of my pants now :P
<cub> to keep all thos EU lobbyists fit.
<zequence_> free ethernet, so at least thats smetthing
<zequence_> cub: The actual applications go into the seeds, but settings go elsewherre
<zequence_> Right now we have ubuntustudio-default-setttings for that
<cub> I'm not following..?
<zequence_> so, if you know which settings need to be changed, we could help out in adding them
<cub> ah yeah sure
<zequence_> cub: about Orca
<cub> first I need to get it to work on my laptops
<cub> so I know what the fixes are
<zequence_> adding orca is as simple as adding the package name to the correctt seed file
<zequence_> ok
<cub> yes, I have read the documentation but not downloaded the seed yet
<cub> I'm getting there slowly in between work and family
<cub> but from what I understand Germinate will take care of any dependencies?
<zequence_> Yes. Just like installing with apt in that regard
<cub> hmm my shirts are being held by DHL?? "Due to a surcharge, the shipment could not be delivered and is being stored. The recipient has been informed."
<zequence_> someone didnt pay their bills to DHL?
<cub> I payed when I ordered...calling them now
<cub> adn I haven't been informed at all, I just saw this since I traced my package
<zequence_> Im thinking the company who pays DHL
<zequence_> i.e. spreadshirt
<zequence_> What a contrast to how fast I got my stuff
<cub> Weird. According to DHL sweden they can't even track it because HDL Germany has different codes.
<cub> And on top of that DHL DE hand the shipment over to Posten in Sweden to deliver, not to DHL SE.
<cub> And voila, the say it's being held while it's actually delivered to Posten. DHL SE apparently get lots of calls about this. The sad part is that I now have no valid tracking number. 
<cub> DHL SE didn't there was any extra charge but that Posten would deliver it and the DE system has a crappy status put in. :D
<zequence_> how ungerman of them
<cub> I want my cup dammit.
<zequence_> yerr cub-cup
<cub> hehe
<cub> Yet another tech at work reinstalled his Ubuntu with Fedora. They are mocking my eee pc with US saucy. The mug will bring back balance.
<zequence_> it will change everything!
<cub> oh yeah. The girls will hang at my office, Sales will bring me gifts. It will be awesome.
<cub> right, so Posten has actually got my package which was delivered last Friday. But it seems they notice to me has disappeared. But I got a new tracking number which I can use to collect it tonight. #win
<zequence_> That happens aaall the tie
<zequence_> and they always blame you
<zequence_> at least at my local store
<zequence_> good to hear your stuff has arrived saffely
<cub> yeah, I just love when my phone bill doesn't arrive and then I get a penalty a week after for not paying it. "But I didn't get it?!" "YHes you did, pay up."
<cub> but cool, I ordered the other mug and a couple of different colors so it will be fun to check them out later today
<cub> smartboyhw, any news on 12.04.3?
<smartboyhw> cub, NO.
<smartboyhw> The release team are still preparing the tracker:O
<cub> and we can't test until that's done?
<smartboyhw> cub, yep
<cub> hehe ok
<cub> good thing we are spread out around the globe to be able to work 24/7. :D
<smartboyhw> cub, :D
<OvenWerks> cub: I am wondering how a blind or nearly blind person works.
<OvenWerks> What applications do they use?
<OvenWerks> For example, if I was blind and wanted to create a document or a book, I would think using a text editor and something like TeX or even html for formating would make more sense than using libreoffice with some kind of support.
<OvenWerks> a mouse would not be much use in the normal way and in factmight get in the way.
<OvenWerks> My opinion (how much is that worth when I am sighted?) is that it might be easier to use a server install rather than a gui session at all.
<OvenWerks> Any blind people I know (all two and a half that I "see" in person and two I have talked with via email) are much better with the keyboard than I am.
<OvenWerks> They seem also to have a much better memory for commands.
<cub> yeah, I've seen mostly three types of work flows or rather tools
<cub> Visually impaired who is not blind might use screen enhancements and a big screen. Other I worked with used speech (which was quite impressive when jumping around within a program) or braille readers
<OvenWerks> So my question becomes: if I was a blind musician, would I be better starting with studio and adding things to help me work with it, or start with a distro that worked for me and add the tools to that for audio?
<cub> At the visually impaired centre where I worked everyone used the same office applications
<cub> yeah I talked some to Josh Kennedy who emailed the list about that. Since there is Vinux aimed for the visually impaired and it's based on Ubuntu 12.04, why not just add a low-latency kernel to it?
<cub> Instead of installing Ubuntu Studio and hope everything else works
<cub> Then again, there seem to be a small community who would like to use Ubuntu Studio anyway, so why not.
<OvenWerks> The two people on LAU who are blind, use nama and midish instead of ardour.
<cub> Josh, in this case has already got hydrogen and the apps he wanted up and running in Vinux, seems he was not about to do like live audio recordings.
<OvenWerks> we do not ship nama (or it's depends)
<cub> no I took a look at them wehn you mentioned them before.
<OvenWerks> midish has no real depends.
<OvenWerks> nama is I think using git now and I know many people use it with ardour as well.
<cub> But yeah, like I wrote before. Am I doing a lot of testing for something noone will actually use? :D
<OvenWerks> zequence: maybe we should add git or something like it.
<cub> you can use nama with Ardour?
<OvenWerks> one or the other
 * smartboyhw likes git;P
<smartboyhw> And bzr out of the most
<smartboyhw> Just PLZ, no SVN..
<cub> Haha on Nama Screenshot page: "Nama's GUI is ugly. There, I've said it."
<OvenWerks> nobody uses the gui.
<cub> I like the idea to do recording without a gui and the be able to import it to Ardour on a workstation for mixing
<OvenWerks> The reason nama works for the blind person is the CLI.
<cub> yes
<cub> Would the low-latency kernel work on any ubuntu based distro?
<OvenWerks> yes
<cub> just like the wiki "how to make your vanilla Ubuntu = Ubuntu Studio"
<cub> so perhaps I should make a wiki of "How to make Vinux -> Vinux Studio" instead. :P
<OvenWerks> I don't think I would add ubuntustudio-audio though
<cub> why not?
<OvenWerks> too many extra apps that would never be used :)
<OvenWerks> and others that need to be added.
<cub> ok
<OvenWerks> maybe that doesn't matter.
<OvenWerks> most of the plugins work for a blind pperson with nama.
<cub> on another note, I saw a thread in the forums on why an installation of VLC would uninstall a couple of ubuntustudio- on saucy, any idea why?
<OvenWerks> but they still require X.
<OvenWerks> VLC uninstalls some of the libav things we use.
<cub> was it like before as well? I don't remember removing anything when I installed vlc
<cub> then again, it was some time ago
<OvenWerks> It may be that VLC has switched to using some of the ffmpeg libs which conflict.
<cub> aha
<OvenWerks> It may be instructive to read up on ffmpeg vs. avlib...
<OvenWerks> And other similar messes like cdrecord vs: wodim
<cub> crap I'm late again. Gotta go! =)
<OvenWerks> bye
<zequence> OvenWerks: I know there are git based backup applications. If there's something specific for multimedia, or used for that, I see no problem in adding it
<zequence> Back home, finally
<zequence> On a Swedish keyboard :P
<OvenWerks> zequence: I am not sure about git or how to add it in a useful manner. I just know that there are a number of people on LAU who have mentioned that use git to store ardour snapshots.
<OvenWerks> ardour is supposed to be able to store it's own snapshots too, but I guess (at least in the past) that has be probematic
<OvenWerks> s/be/been
<OvenWerks> nama now (or will soon) use git natively as it's backup/snapshot option.
 * OvenWerks seems to be in broken english mode today :P
<zequence> There's one that deals with backing up the /etc directory
<zequence> etckeeper
<zequence> it can do multiple, git, and others
<zequence> automatic backup of any changes
<zequence> I'm sure that should be possible to adapt to any application
<OvenWerks> That might work then. I just don't want to add something without knowing how it works. Without knowing it adds something worth while.
<OvenWerks> Going on some people have meantioned they use it is not enough to make me comfortable.
<zequence> I dont think etckeeper as it is would work, I dont really know, but the concept - and using something like git
<nickgbro> holy, ive been away a while...
<nickgbro> what's new?
<cub> OvenWerks, are you around?
<cub> never mind, catch you tomorrow. :)
#ubuntustudio-devel 2013-08-21
<Hyuri> seems to me that in the case you have 2 HDDs with one windows 7 installed on each, ubuntu studio delete completely one of them and installs itself in the place
<Hyuri> on a normal installation
<Hyuri> i don't know if it is a bug and your are aware of this or i had a isolated problem, but i lose a windows 7 installation and all the data in this scenario
<cub> OvenWerks, the new icons, they are only for the Ubuntu Studio specific applications right? I noticed that the Power indicator in the tray doesn't shrink if you change the upper panel to 16.
<zequence> cub: They are only for the menu, unless you're thinking about our icon theme, which is based on another - just swapping out the logo pretty much
<cub> Yeah, so the power indicator is someone else's problem. :)
<zequence> I think itÅ elementary icon theme
<cub> zequence, so you know why cinelerra is not available in the repos?
<cub> do
<knome> cub, can you talk about the non-shrinking icon with ochosi @ #xubuntu if it happened to be elementary?
<cub> how can I check if it's elementary? My icon settings is marked "Ubuntu Studio".
<knome> he can help you debug that :)
<cub> ah
<knome> and, um, #xubuntu-devel is better :)
<cub> :)
<knome> he's around now, if you have the time
<cub> yup, just need more coffee. :D
<smartboyhw> My phone is declared dead...
<Noskcaj> smartboyhw, what phone, why?
<smartboyhw> Noskcaj, Samsung Galaxy Pocket, just wouldn't boot (even when charging_)
<Noskcaj> ok
<cub> smartboyhw, so get an Ubuntu Edge
<smartboyhw> cub, it will fail I think:P
<smartboyhw> cub, can you help test the 12.04.3 images?
<smartboyhw> http://iso.qa.ubuntu.com/qatracker/milestones/301/builds/51842/testcases for amd64
<smartboyhw> http://iso.qa.ubuntu.com/qatracker/milestones/301/builds/51843/testcases for i386
* smartboyhw changed the topic of #ubuntustudio-devel to: Ubuntu Studio Development Channel | https://code.launchpad.net/ubuntustudio | find Ubuntu Studio stable Releases at https://ubuntustudio.org/download/ | latest current ISO http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/ubuntustudio/dvd/current/ | Please help test the 12.04.3 images at http://iso.qa.ubuntu.com/qatracker/milestones/301/builds
<cub> Sadly, yes. Still people call it the most successful crowdfunded campaign ever. But....if it doesn't reach it's target there will be nothing. How is that successful?
<cub> smartboyhw, sure, I should be able to fire up some Vboxes here
<smartboyhw> OvenWerks, zequence DarkEra ^
<Noskcaj> smartboyhw, i would, but crappy laptop, internet and wrist
<smartboyhw> Noskcaj, focus on Xubuntu first maybe
<Noskcaj> same issues
<DarkEra> smartboyhw, i can't help because i don't have a machine at the moment to test or help further in development. I told a couple of times before that my laptop died a while ago and am not in a position to  buy a new machine anytime soon
<smartboyhw> DarkEra, OK sure.
<DarkEra> otherwise i would jump in straight away ;)
<cub> smartboyhw, is that the test cases they have been talk about us updating?
<smartboyhw> cub, what do you mean, *updating*?
<cub> I saw some discussions (or emails) about updating the test cases. And check number 3 "Unity interface is displayed". No I hope not! ;)
<smartboyhw> cub, uh hum, that's the problem with 12.04.3
<smartboyhw> We didn't update the testcases for Precise:P
<smartboyhw> The newer testcases are availble for Raring+ only
<cub> aha ok
<smartboyhw> cub, which architecture will you want to test?
<smartboyhw> i386 or amd64?
<cub> I figured I'd run both?
<smartboyhw> cub, well, I can assist you here
<cub> it will be on virtualbox though, if that's not an issue?
<smartboyhw> cub, I mean, I can run i386 while you run amd64 ..
<smartboyhw> that saves you time
<smartboyhw> (Don't tell me you want to run 2 VMs at the same time)
<cub> hehe no one at a time
<cub> but shouldn't as many as possible test both?
<cub> because of different HW and so on?
<smartboyhw> cub, here's the fact: I run i386 and you run amd64, then if we find any bugs we can tell each other and re-run:P
<cub> yup
<cub> first issue. Download failed due to disk full. Doh.
<smartboyhw> LOL LOL LOL
<smartboyhw> zequence, please post the testing announcements to G+ and social media
<cub> smartboyhw, about the testcases. The Live session contains 3 tests, tc-dls-001/002/003 but the page to report "passed with no bugs" I can't pick them each, just to clear that all worked. Seems odd?
<smartboyhw> cub, eh, just mark them on the ISO QA Tracker
<cub> smartboyhw, http://imgur.com/h3hmq8L
<cub> Am I at the wrong place?
<smartboyhw> cub, yes you are at the wrong place
<smartboyhw> You should choose the Precise 12.04.3 milestone.
<cub> hmm I end up at the same place.
<smartboyhw> cub, you can't see "Passed with no bugs"?
<smartboyhw> WEIRD
<cub> yes
<cub> I can. but as I can only run 001 and 002 but not 003 at the moment
<cub> it should be possible to check each test case as you go along, I thought
<cub> as 2 out of 3 can be successful
<smartboyhw> cub, just click in the live one
<cub> and as I can only mark "Live Session" and click "Passed with no bugs" I have to been successful at all three
<smartboyhw> Report the result, and mention that you didn't do tc-dls-003
<smartboyhw> Actually, I can't even do that either..
<cub> nope it just set everything as passed then. crap.
<smartboyhw> cub, what?
<smartboyhw> I mean, click INTO the live testcaes
<knome> if you couldn't do something, then set it to failed
<knome> cub, you can edit the result later.
<smartboyhw> knome, mark it as "In Progress"
<smartboyhw> Failed?
<cub> knome, part 001 and 002 is to start the live session and end it
 * smartboyhw doesn't think so
<cub> which was fine.
<knome> smartboyhw, if you can't run -003
<cub> 003 I need to create a persistent usb stick and run
<knome> or is -003 persistence?
<cub> which I can't do now
<knome> BAH
<smartboyhw> knome, -003 persistence:P
<knome> now *THAT'S* a bug (that it is still not a separate testcase)
<smartboyhw> knome, fix it:P
<smartboyhw> (You are admin after all)
<knome> smartboyhw, that's not as simple as just doing it. the hardest part is the social side.
<smartboyhw> knome, the issue is that all the testcases you find for testing raring and saucy aren't used for precise (they still use the ancient part)
<smartboyhw> Eh
<cub> I could edit my result afterwards and add notes
<knome> i think we could do that after 12.04.3 but before 13.04 tests
<smartboyhw> knome, we have splited for 13.10
<smartboyhw> We just didn't do that (for 12.04 specifically)
<knome> (yeah i mean 13.10)
<knome> okay
<knome> then let's leave it
<smartboyhw> cub, just leave a comment saying that you didn't do -003.
<smartboyhw> Is that OK for you?
<smartboyhw> I will do the persistence ones for you, I got 2 spare USBs.
<cub> I added the notes and put it as "In prgoress"
<cub> I can run it later on today when I get home
<smartboyhw> cub, which architecture are you testing now currently?
<cub> amd64
<smartboyhw> cub, good:P
<cub> need food. bbl.
 * smartboyhw can do the persistence for you
<cub> ok, I edit to successful then
<cub> will run the installation test after lunch.
<cub> smartboyhw: #fail or #ok? http://i.imgur.com/jtJnlBg.png
<knome> heh, xubuntu logo :)
<cub> yup
<cub> sneaky. ;)
<smartboyhw> cub, it was originally a bug supposed to be fixed.
<smartboyhw> The problem: It is a bit TOO complicated.
<cub> really?
<smartboyhw> cub, you know, in 12.10 to fix that bug I think we modified at least 3 packages or somewhat (with 1 entirely new I think)
<smartboyhw> !package ubuntustudio-icon-theme 
<cub> interesting. It's "just" a logo. :P
<smartboyhw> https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/1077372
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1077372 in ubuntustudio-icon-theme (Ubuntu Precise) "When installing Ubuntu Studio, the logo in the auto-paritioning step is wrong" [Medium,Triaged]
<smartboyhw> Make it a pass
<smartboyhw> But, this bug, hmm
<cub> yeah I did
<smartboyhw> I would rather mark it "Not fix"
<smartboyhw> "Won't fix" rather...
<smartboyhw> OvenWerks, zequence any ideas? ^
<cub> Should I be useing the Testing tracker while running my Saucy eee pc?
<smartboyhw> cub, um, what do you mean? 
<cub> Since there are test cases for Saucy, perhaps I should update everytime I re-install my Saucy laptop
 * smartboyhw is making an amd64 persistance 
<smartboyhw> USGB
<smartboyhw> *USB
<smartboyhw> cub, you should:P
<cub> I didn't know about these pages. :D I done i386 suacy installations last time yesterday. :D
<cub> anyhow, gotta do some work.
<smartboyhw> Rebooting for persistence testing, see ya.
<smartboyhw> Hmm, I
<smartboyhw> am not sure if live session passed for me
<smartboyhw> cub, OK, Unetbootin is an idiot
<smartboyhw> Persistence doesn't work, can't use Firefox, etc.
<cub> I've had trouble with unetbootin and persistence before.
 * smartboyhw hates unetbootin...
<cub> but I have had trouble with any creating-usb-stick how-to I use
<smartboyhw> cub, LOL
<smartboyhw> cub, I don't think we can try persistence...
<smartboyhw> Just ignore it
<cub> for a while dd was working the best. But it ended a couple of weeks ago so now I'm back to unetbootin
<cub> How can we improve to the next time to have more time for testing?
<smartboyhw> cub, probably we can run the images earlier
<smartboyhw> Find the bugs earlier
<smartboyhw> So we can have a bug-free test for pre-release testing
<cub> I thought they weren't released until today?
<smartboyhw> cub, actually, they are always available:P
<cub> for Daily?
<smartboyhw> cub, yeah
<smartboyhw> cub, I will probably be trying AGAIN this time.
<cub> I feel a bit bad to test a new release for LTS the day before release.
<smartboyhw> Let me see if I can get it working
<smartboyhw> cub, me too
<cub> the users should be able to count on LTS to like..stay stable. :P
<smartboyhw> cub, it is stable
<cub> we don't know that?
<smartboyhw> cub, ?
<smartboyhw> cub, BTW have you started testing i386?
<cub> Between us we might have run at least each test one time. I wouldn't be confident that's proof of stable. On the few machines we tried it on, yes. But for all other, who knows?
<cub> no only the amd64
<smartboyhw> cub, if you can start doing the i386 it would be great:P
<cub> maybe later on, I need to get som work stuff out of my way for a while
<knome> cub, people should file bugs, and there are automated mechamisms to find out if backports break older releases
<cub> knome, ok. And how big of a difference is a completely updated 12.04.2 against the 12.04.3?
<knome> not too much, and those updates are specifically under the radar for regressions
<cub> smartboyhw, I'll set up th ei386 test and I can run them on my way home today
<cub> Starting out with the dreaded usb persistant. ;)
<smartboyhw> cub, LOL
<cub> smartboyhw, to clarify on the persistence test. Am I supposed to create the USB within the Live Session? Or should I just create a USB persistence on whatever pc I want and then boot into that and run the tests?
<smartboyhw> cub, second optioin
<cub> ok
<cub> smartboyhw, did you run the i386 live tests yet? I didn't get the questiong to "Remove install media and press ENTER" when shutting down. Otherwise it went fine.
<smartboyhw> cub, no.
<smartboyhw> cub, it's usual in virtualbox
<cub> I ran it on my laptop, no Vbox.
<smartboyhw> cub, uh?
<cub> on the amd64 I got the question, running vbox
<smartboyhw> weird
<cub> will try in a vbox
<smartboyhw> zequence, what upstream Linux kernelis the latest precise linux-lowlatency kernel based on?
<smartboyhw> Need it for release notes
 * smartboyhw can't load it from github, it complains about too long:O
<smartboyhw> Oh My
<smartboyhw> Sorry, this tree took too long to generate.
<smartboyhw> ......
<smartboyhw> zequence, BTW I deleted the upgrade testcases for 12.04.3 Ubuntu Studio
<smartboyhw> If you want it back, tell me or mark it in ISO tracker yourself
<smartboyhw> Eh, ignore that part, stgraber realized it is WRONG
<smartboyhw> zequence, ignore that whole thing, I found it out myself
 * smartboyhw goes draft the release announcement
<smartboyhw> zequence, the draft is there in the website
 * smartboyhw wonders where zequence today
<smartboyhw> cub, how's the testing?
<cub> good so far. Though I just realized I kind of skipped one step
<smartboyhw> heh
<smartboyhw> cub, I'm ready here with the release notes and announcement, needs zequence approval
<cub> when installing during the "Where are you" I should have changed city and time zone. I just clicked continue since it was correct.
<smartboyhw> cub, eh, it WAS supposed to
<smartboyhw> So, not a probkem
<smartboyhw> *problem
<cub> yeah
<cub> but the test included to be able to change anyway. buuut well it problably works. :P
<cub> waiting for the last installation to finish.
<cub> once it's released, what do I as a user need to do to upgrade form 12.04.2? Just update && upgrade?
<cub> and done. smartboyhw, updated for i386 tests.
<smartboyhw> zequence, marked all images as ready on ISO QA Tracker.
<smartboyhw> I'm ready here for the release.
<OvenWerks> the ubuntu grub2 documentation is less than as complete as I would like
<smartboyhw> OvenWerks, oh:(
<OvenWerks> I would like to ensure the default entry is always the latest lowlatency kernel
<OvenWerks> rather than just the latest.
<smartboyhw> OvenWerks, will we fix Bug 1077372 sooner or later? I would rather mark it "Won't fix" if it's impossible.
<ubottu> bug 1077372 in ubuntustudio-icon-theme (Ubuntu Precise) "When installing Ubuntu Studio, the logo in the auto-paritioning step is wrong" [Medium,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1077372
<OvenWerks> The sense I got was that the PTB concidered it fixed if fixed in the new version.
<OvenWerks> It is ok to do "won't fix" bu me
<OvenWerks> *by
<smartboyhw> Well, won't fix then..
<OvenWerks> It appears that the icon only shows in one use case... to me it is more of a bug that it does not appear in more places.
<OvenWerks> For example, I would like it to appear in the resize display and the something else partition display
<OvenWerks> (or even some text)
<OvenWerks> Another personal wish, is that the installer would honor partition labels, or allow the user to set them at install.
<smartboyhw> As the old motto say: "If you want to have some feature, implement it yourself":P
<smartboyhw> OvenWerks, ^
<OvenWerks> One step at a time
<OvenWerks> The reason for this is that for unmounted partitions they get mounted on a directory named by the UUID which is quite long and besides gives the user very poor feedback as to what they are looking at in the case of more than one being mounted at a time.
<OvenWerks> However, If I am going to work on something (after getting settings done :)  I would probably start with a better grub menu.
<OvenWerks> I would really like to see grub when auto configured by a new kernel install, run set root on a partition selectable by the user.
<smartboyhw> OvenWerks, marked as "Won't fix"
<OvenWerks> TY
<OvenWerks> I guess I should have done that before
<smartboyhw> OvenWerks, if you can propose a fix to it, we can re-enable it back:P
<OvenWerks> I won't. The importance level is too low on my list of stuff to do...
<smartboyhw> OvenWerks, OK sure:)
<OvenWerks> That icon is going to end up being the only reason we need an icon theme at all.
<OvenWerks> It looks like xfce is going to fix their default menu merge line so we will be able to use it as is with our merge.
* smartboyhw changed the topic of #ubuntustudio-devel to: Ubuntu Studio Development Channel | https://code.launchpad.net/ubuntustudio | find Ubuntu Studio stable Releases at https://ubuntustudio.org/download/ | latest current ISO http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/ubuntustudio/dvd/current/ |
<OvenWerks> zequence: re:grub, I have made changes in my personal grub on my server before (to use a serial console) and in doing it the way _all_ the documentation suggests I do it, my kernel will no longer upgrade unless I manually force it to. This is because I have changed one of the system files ...
<OvenWerks> /etc/default/grub in fact as suggested.
<OvenWerks> I want to avoid making any similar problems show up in our ISO and so any fixes I do to grub make take some time in coming as I will want to test them over upgrades of both kernel and grub.
<cub> I got to pick up my US shirts and mug today. The shirts are really nice! Good fit, good quality and great print. Only thing is that the Dark Grey shirt is quite greenish grey rather than dark grey.
<knome> cub, so where in sweden do you live?
<cub> The mug itself is good, great handle and normal size mug. The print is not great. The CoF logo is placed quite near the handle and not at the right side as described.
<cub> knome, Stockholm or more exact in EkerÃ¶. :)
<knome> oo
<cub> The print of "ubuntustudio" is not opposite of the handle as I expected but somewhere in between the middle and the right. Sadly the print is cut in the bottom so the fonts are a bit flat.
<cub> knome, are you in Helsinki?
<knome> yup
<cub> The blue color on the mug is also a bit too light I believe. I will upload some pictures tomorrow.
<knome> cub, there was some discussion about a nordic contributors meeting at one point..
<cub> that would be cool. There seem to be quite a few Nordics around
<knome> yup, zequence too ;)
<knome> and astraljava and rowboatnick and Sysi
<cub> ah I was just writing a question about that. :D
<knome> and other,b ut not in the US/xubuntu project afaik
<knome> projects too
<cub> my "mormor" and "farfar" were from Finland.
<knome> cool
<cub> And then I lived in Haparanda for two years and that is Finland in most Swedes eyes. ;)
<knome> lol
<knome> and sweden in most finns eyes...
<cub> I'd like to live in Helsinki sometime, but when I almost had a shot I left the company. :P
<knome> aww :P
<cub> hehe
<knome> if you ever take a trip here, just ping me and we can sit down for a beer or so
<cub> certainly, and if you come to Sweden as well.
<knome> sure, i'll have to let several people know ;)
<cub> we should bring zequence over then too
<knome> yeah
<cub> hehe that's the thing. You end up just meeting all the people and not having any vacation
<knome> yeah but vacation wouldn't be my objective anyway :P
<knome> just meet people, eat and maybe visit a board game store to buy a game
<cub> :D
<cub> what do you do when you're not handling xubuntu?
<knome> what do you mean? ;)
<cub> work? student? slacker?
<knome> :P
<knome> i'm an entrepreneur... but i fit in the last group
<cub> aha
<knome> ;)=
<cub> Is there a new Mir version tomorrow? Any news on that?
<cub> xmir
<knome> seriously speaking, outside my work and foss involvement, i try to fit in as much nice things as possible; i'm a board game enthusiast so that and then music and other nice stuff.
<knome> there should be tomorrow, or friday if the mir teams internal testing fails
<knome> there was some discussion about that in #xubuntu-devel just a few minutes ago
<cub> You should talk to one of my collegues, he's a big fan of board games
<knome> cool! can you name his favorites?
<knome> i mean, do you remember
<cub> Nope. :D I'm not a fan.
<cub> but he arranges board game evening at work and they are quite popular
<knome> aww. but you've played, right?
<knome> that's cool!
<cub> noo not for like..20 years
<knome> i do that too, but nobody ever shows up!
<cub> haha
<knome> (just kidding, i'm running my business alone)
<cub> we have more nerds then
<knome> he has told you boardgames are something much more fun and interesting than monopoly, right?
<cub> If you want to expand your business to Stockholm we are in need of good *nix engineers
<cub> oh yeah, the games he bring look awesome. But I'm swamped with all the other stuff I hope get done in the evenings
<knome> thanks for the offer, but i doubt :)
<knome> i'm mostly working with graphics/printing/websites
<knome> and my "main" area seems to shift around between those three every 6-12 months :P
<cub> ah, we only take care of things once they are done.
<knome> mhm :)
<cub> like the largest dating site in Finland. :P
<knome> hah
<knome> not your customer then ;)
<cub> but no, we only have their mail platform now.
<knome> heh
<knome> my previous company did something similar, but when we split, i've kind of tried to get out of that
<knome> not completely, i do some maintaining stuff, but only for my clients as an additional service
<knome> (which also gives some additional money)
<knome> do things well -> easy to maintain; ask for regular maintaining prices -> more extra for you
<knome> (and no surprises!)
<cub> hehe
<cub> the dog is complaining, time for a walk.
<knome> have fun!
#ubuntustudio-devel 2013-08-22
<OvenWerks> zequence: more grub stuff... After having a look at all the grub stuff I can find... I think that grub could be changed upstream in a way that might be good for more than just studio.
<OvenWerks> I think another parameter could be added to /etc/default/grub (GRUB_DEFAULT_KERNAL_NAME or something) where the name might be anything. Generic, lowlatency, RT, experimental... or whatever.
<OvenWerks> It could even be used to limit the default to a kernel series where there were two in the same release... for example to default 3.11.* over 3.12.* if there was a problem with 3.12 in the users use case.
 * smartboyhw just wants zequence to approve the release notes and release announcement and stuff:(
<OvenWerks> There is a point where a list of kernels is passed to a "find latest kernel" script and it would be easy to limit that list to one that only includes $GRUB_DEFAULT_KERNAL_NAME. The list could then be expanded to add the rest for the rest of kernels for the rest of the entries.
<OvenWerks> smartboyhw: I don't think I have that power
<smartboyhw> OvenWerks, maybe just have a read?
<OvenWerks> where.
<smartboyhw> Wait
<smartboyhw> OvenWerks, release notes: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/PrecisePangolin/ReleaseNotes/UbuntuStudio
<OvenWerks> releasse notes would only have generic ubuntu plus any new kernels
<smartboyhw> OvenWerks, don't worry the kernel info is up-to-date:P
<smartboyhw> OvenWerks, http://paste.ubuntu.com/6012528/ for announcement
<OvenWerks> are we 5 year or 3 support ofr LTS?
<OvenWerks> *for
<OvenWerks> I guess whatever the original anouncement says we have to go with
<OvenWerks> (12.04.0)
<OvenWerks> That is all that sticks out to me.
<OvenWerks> The family needs my attention for a few hours now.
<smartboyhw> OvenWerks, 5 years.
<OvenWerks> ok
<smartboyhw> zequence decided that:P
<OvenWerks> be back in an hour or so
<smartboyhw> OvenWerks, sure
<OvenWerks> smartboyhw: didyou get anywhere?
<OvenWerks> Hmm, is there any reason we ship an empty /etc/skel/ ?
<OvenWerks> ubuntustudio-default-settings.gconf-defaults looks kinda old/invalid too.
<OvenWerks> .postinst and .postrm both mv a file that doesn't exist...
 * OvenWerks has some cleanup to do...
<OvenWerks> .preinst too. None of them need to be there in the form they are now I think.
<OvenWerks> Maybe a try at upgrading 11.04 11.10 plus.
<OvenWerks>  Probably better off not to though.
<zequence> smartboyhw: I've been really busy
<zequence> I'm working as a teacher during day time now
<OvenWerks> Good stuff
<zequence> Just for this and the next week, so it's only temporary
<OvenWerks> micahg seems to have gone too.
<zequence> I'm a student otherwise, but currently looking for work. Looking for some Unix/Linux type of jobs right now
<zequence> smartboyhw: Looks fine to me
<zequence> At the moment, I can't do any work at all. I passed my Linux+ exam yesterday
<zequence> I'm just swamped with other responsibilities right now
<zequence> So, -controls and whatever else needs to wait until next cycle, I'm afraid
<OvenWerks> zequence: is there some command that needs to be issued to make his work publish? or can smartboyhw do it on his own?
<zequence> OvenWerks: Is there something that still needs to be uploaded for you
<zequence> ?
<OvenWerks> two packages ready to go.
<zequence> OvenWerks: No, he just passes the link to the release team.
<zequence> ubuntustudio-menu and -installer?
<OvenWerks> -settings needs some work still.
<OvenWerks> but the other two packages need to be avaiable first not to break things
<zequence> OvenWerks: I'm looking for help on #ubuntu-motu
<OvenWerks> It looks like stock xfce menu is going to get fixed so we won't need to have one on our settings package. Our menu stub will do the whole thing
<OvenWerks> sounds good
<OvenWerks> It may be tomorrow before someone answers though. but I'll be around
<OvenWerks> I willmonitor ubuntu-motu
<smartboyhw> OvenWerks, zequence OK:)
<smartboyhw> Thank you:P
<smartboyhw> xequence, hello:)
<xequence> hi smartboyhw. you know a good irc client for android?
<smartboyhw> xequence, AndroIRC, that's what I use
<smartboyhw> When I am at mobile ofc
<smartboyhw> I just bought a new phone (so whopping new, it just came out less than a week:O)
<xequence> mine is whopping old and if I
<xequence> nope need to change client
<xequence> no autocomplete...
<smartboyhw> xequence, well, try another one
<cub> xequence, I'm about to write up an evaluation on the mug I bought. Should I spam the devel-list with that or keep it to you and ttoine? Perhaps madeinkobaia.
<cub> zequence, ^
<OvenWerks> cub is your intent to see if things can be improved? or to suggest other people should/should_not buy?
<OvenWerks> If you are looking for improvement or are suggesting it get changed, talk directly.
<cub> yes it's printing mistake related. The font is cropped in the bottom, the colours seem a bit too light etc.
<OvenWerks> ttoine (did I spell it right) would be the one to talk to.
<cub> yup, just sent an email with pictures
<smartboyhw> OvenWerks, but that normally involves zequence and made
<OvenWerks> Colour should be easy to change
<smartboyhw> *madeinkobaia
<cub> yes all three got it. :)
<cub> Now I will go and fill the mug with hot coffee for the third time today.
<OvenWerks> what one sees on a monitor and what prints are often not the same. cropping can be fixed by shrinking.
<OvenWerks> cub: I am on my first... it is only 0600 here
<knome> OvenWerks, "only"? that sounds like a really late night ;)
<smartboyhw> LOL
<cub> ouch OvenWerks I woke at 0558 when my daughter coffed. But both of us went back to sleep.:P
<OvenWerks> I'm on hollidays so I can get up late :)
 * knome woke after noon today, and it's a regular "working day"
<xequence> cub,  mine also had less color, but it was acceptac
<OvenWerks> My Yf got up at 0500 to go to work and I find once up I am better off staying up.
<xequence> Acceptable
<cub> xequence, yes it's still blue and looks good.
<xequence> But cropped fonts sound bad
 * OvenWerks would like a mug,
<knome> bbl
<cub> the handle on the mug is excellent. Fits my hand perfectly. I could go for it to contain more coffee but you can't get everything
<OvenWerks> I would like stickers.
<cub> xequence, is there any documentation on applications that hvae been considered for Ubuntu Studio but didn't make it? With some explaination on why it was dropped?
<OvenWerks> It would be in the workflow documentation if anywhere.
<xequence> cub could take a picture of the font
<OvenWerks> app inclusion has eveolved...
<OvenWerks> for a long time we stayed away from the kde libs
<OvenWerks> (for size reasons)
<OvenWerks> But mainly we are trying to include just enough apps to be able to do the workflow well
<xequence> cub currently theres Noone working on that. Someone just needs to pick a workflow and start working on that
<OvenWerks> apps have to be available in our repos.
<OvenWerks> apps that are not on our ISO can still be added to the "extra sw installer".
<OvenWerks> apps that need another repo can be added to the "extra sw installer" too, but will only show up if/when the repo it belongs to is added.
 * OvenWerks would like to see the non mixer available.
<OvenWerks> cub: we have also tried to make sure that even apps we don't include at all are in the right menu.
<cub> xequence, the are pictures in the email I sent you about 15 mnutes ago
<xequence> cub ok. Will check later
<cub> xequence, OvenWerks, ok I was wondering since I saw a question about Cinelerra. It's not in any repos and even though it's open source it's not a community product. But there is community cinelerra-cv so I wondered how similar things was handled.
<OvenWerks> cub: That has to be user installed
<cub> some documentation on "App Xyz was not included because unstable/no repos/licensing issues/etc". Then everyone would know and it would be easier when reviews later on that "oh with this new version we could add it."
<OvenWerks> wiki page?
<cub> OvenWerks, how do you manage the menu for applications that is not included? Do you list every possible app you've heard of? :D
<OvenWerks> I try to.
<cub> yeah, a wiki page would probably be the best..if someone would have the time and will to maintain it.
<OvenWerks> I have installed lots of things we don't include just to find out what the desktop file is called
<OvenWerks> cub thing is we could over fill a DVD if we included everything.
<cub> yeah
<cub> and then all the people screaming "bloatware" would have a field day.
<OvenWerks> The thing that keeps getting pushed back but we really want.. is for all the SW to be on the live ISO but to be able to just install a subset.
<OvenWerks> For example just the video workflow.
<cub> while we are online at the same time OvenWerks, the gnome-orca I'm trying to add to the seed. In the branch there is a file "desktop" but there's also a "desktop-gnome" file.
<OvenWerks> use desktop
<cub> and the desktop-gnome have the gnome-orca in it. I suppose it just to copy the same thing to the "desktop" file?
<OvenWerks> desktop-gnome is experimental just now.
<OvenWerks> sure.
<cub> cool. Won't be until later this week though
<OvenWerks> desktop-gnome and desktop-kde are for "spinoff" ISOs
<cub> aha
<cub> Workflow installations would be sweet. I'm also thinking of setting up a mini audio installation for my eee pc following your links on nama
<OvenWerks> personally, I am leaning more towards some thing that just installs studio on top of other DEs
<cub> It would be awesome to be able to run a terminal only installation on my eee pc, record a session with ecasound and then bring it home to Ardour for mixing.
<OvenWerks> like maybe have an ISO that has an installer, and all the SW on it (maybe including the extras) but no live de.
<smartboyhw> OvenWerks, cub you want an alternate ISO!!!??!?!
<OvenWerks> cub you would have to import it as wave files
<smartboyhw> :O
<smartboyhw> Only Lubuntu has it now
<OvenWerks> smartboyhw: no
<smartboyhw> OvenWerks, that is an ISO with no live de and with instaler
<smartboyhw> *installer
<cub> no I would most likely install US and then strip it down.
<cub> or install another mini, like Debian and add a RT kernel
<OvenWerks> cub that is what I did
<cub> OvenWerks, yes but it should work if all the tracks start at the same time. I hope. It's all theory so far.
<OvenWerks> but I am finding I don't have enough memory to keep jack happy
<cub> hmm how much RAM is minimum?
<OvenWerks> ya that would work, I just wanted to make sure you didn't think it was a one step process
<OvenWerks> I only have 192m
<cub> wow
<smartboyhw> OvenWerks, you should use LXDE:p
<OvenWerks> It is an old P300
<smartboyhw> Maybe not, Lubuntu doesn't even recommend 192MB I think
<OvenWerks> smartboyhw: it is neadless
<cub> smartboyhw, No DE is even better. :P
<smartboyhw> OvenWerks, neadless?
<OvenWerks> no monitor
<smartboyhw> OvenWerks, :O
<OvenWerks> headless
<OvenWerks> the session manager is screen
<cub> OvenWerks, do you have any experience with recording to SD cards?
<OvenWerks> need more ram
<OvenWerks> basically you need enough ram for the whole song
<OvenWerks> (probably all tracks too)
<OvenWerks> sd writing is pretty slow.
<cub> For my needs I would probably need to record 1-2 tracks and playback of 8-16 tracks.
<OvenWerks> 1gig should be enough
<cub> which is what I have. :D
<OvenWerks> I don't know how much smaller you can go
<OvenWerks> but I was able to do quite a lot with my netbook
<cub> The newer SD cards should have ok writing, no? Since they are used for video recordings
<OvenWerks> and that had a GUI running
<OvenWerks> I am going by USB sticks which are the same tech. Writing is about 1/4 to 1/2 read speed.
<cub> I haven't checked, but would USB be slower than SD?
<OvenWerks> The way I look at it is: I have a USB(2.0) hard drive and find it quite acceptable speed wise. A USB stick is much slower... as in not usable
<OvenWerks> The USB IF is not the bottleneck the memory write is
<cub> Hmm I could bring my external usb harddrive in that case. But it's much bigger than to just pop out the SD card.
<OvenWerks> The SSD disks get around it by doing multi writes
<cub> I need to investigate it further when I come back to recording. Which might be in 2017...
<OvenWerks> it will be a hwole new world by then
<cub> and my computers will be staggering if not dead by then :D
<OvenWerks> my P 300 will probably still be running, but much newer stuff will be dead...
<zequence> I stil have an Atari that my uncle used to use for web browsing in the late eighties. If all else fails..
<zequence> late 90s, I mean
<smartboyhw> zequence, OvenWerks can you give me some sort of change summary for Ubuntu Studio 13.10?
<OvenWerks> smartboyhw: still waiting for it to happen :P
<smartboyhw> OvenWerks, at least things before FF :P
<OvenWerks> created our own installer, new menu icons, grub screen now will say UbuntuStudio
<OvenWerks> new menu
<smartboyhw> OvenWerks, GRUB actually shows UbuntuStudio now? Awesome
<OvenWerks> should be only one session (no xfce session)
<smartboyhw> OvenWerks, ?
<OvenWerks> It does on my machine, the change is not up yet
<OvenWerks> Right now there is an xfce session with stock xfce menu that confuses people, we just want the studio session to be available
<OvenWerks> I am also working on adding the latest lowlatency as default even if there is a newer generic installed for some reason
<OvenWerks> After FF I think I will see if I can do some grub changes upstream... for example to make multi-ubuntu partitions easier to tell apart.
<OvenWerks> I would like to see ubiquity: A) keep a partition's label intact when it uses that partition to install on. B) offer to name/rename the partition's label.
<OvenWerks> this would make sysadmin and unmounted partition use much easier. Trying to recongize which UUID in /media goes to which drive is painful. If the partition has a label, the mounter uses that instead.
<cub> smartboyhw, I'm working on putting in Accessibility tools to simplify the installation process for visually impaired, in the form of screen reader. Though, we'll see if it will actually work so very preliminary.
<smartboyhw> cub, will you be able to finish it before FeatureFreeze?
<holstein> cub: ping
<cub> the application will be there before FF.
<cub> since it's already in Ubuntu.
<smartboyhw> cub, OK
<holstein> oh.. you are there :)
<smartboyhw> cub, that shouldn't be difficult:P
<cub> not to get it in there no. To make it work in xfce is another matter. :P
<cub> but that I can continue to work out after FF
<cub> holstein, pong!
<smartboyhw> cub, but don't forget: three options for Xfce implemenation: 1. Request FFe or 2. Leave it till 13.10
<smartboyhw> Oops, 14.04 LTS:P
<holstein> cub: i/we had done a few things since you mentioned changing the topic, and i wanted to get your thoughts
<cub> yes, but I would like to get it in for 13.10 so we can evaluate properly if it will stay in there for 14.04
<OvenWerks> cub: soon as you have a merge let me know... or subcribe me/askfor review.
<smartboyhw> cub, we can request FFe (not for the app itself, but for your Xfce implemetation)
<cub> OvenWerks, will do. Won't be until the weekend at the earliest
<OvenWerks> NO prob
<cub> smartboyhw, I don't follow?
<smartboyhw> Paperwork for FFe and SRU is unfortunately what I normally do:P
<zequence> For 14.04 we should really make the planning solid. And get all of our unfinished work done, that is hanging around
<smartboyhw> cub, you said you want to make it work in Xfce right?
<cub> yes.
<holstein> zequence: ping
<zequence> holstein: pong
<smartboyhw> cub, and the work will be done after FF?
 * holstein is pinging everyone ;)
<zequence> :D
<smartboyhw> LOL
<smartboyhw> :D
<cub> from what I gathered from the orca community it works with xfce, but you might have to do a few tweaks to get it to work perfectly
<OvenWerks> smartboyhw: I don't think he knows
<smartboyhw> cub, FF = FeatureFreeze. FFe = FeatureFreezeException
<smartboyhw> FFe is used when you want to implement a feature AFTER FeatureFreeze.
<holstein> zequence: before you came on, the mixbux folk where wanting to make ubuntustudio the "official" distro for it.. i had told them that we would talk about it, but i dont think anything ever happened
<cub> smartboyhw,  I hope to have everything done before FF. But will concentrate on getting the gnome-orca included first so it's at least in there from the start.
<zequence> holstein: Was that a really long time ago?
<smartboyhw> cub, I do have to remind you: FF is exactly one week later
<cub> I was told that after FF I would be alo
<cub> allowed to fix buds
<holstein> zequence: i had told the mixbus folks that nothing we were doing was preventing them from doing that anyway.. but it might be nice to have that conversation with harrison, or whatever.. since AVlinux is "dead"
<cub> bugs
<smartboyhw> cub, if you apply for a FFe you will also be allowed to implement new things.
<holstein> zequence: at least 12.10 or 12.04
<smartboyhw> Huh, that's LONG time ago:P
<zequence> holstein: 12.04 is pretty decent now, so that should work
<zequence> 14.04, hopefully, will be exceptional :P
 * smartboyhw +1's zequence 
<cub> holstein, I think the topic change might have improved the public behaviour some. Though it's hard to say for sure. I haven't anyone storm out of the channel screaming since though.
<zequence> holstein: I guess, like you said, we don't really need to help decide that
<zequence> holstein: But, we could assist by answering any questions they have
<holstein> cub: well, let me know if you want to re-visit your concern.. i agree that it is/was an issue, and we'll just try somethings and see if we can address it :)
<zequence> holstein: What's the irc channel for mixbus, do you know?
<holstein> zequence: let me casually mention it to the channel
<OvenWerks> #ardour-mixbus I think
<holstein> #ardour-mixbus ^^ yup
<cub> smartboyhw, since the application is already in the Ubuntu live dvd it should be easy for us to add it to our seed, right? So it will be ok for FF? If we are lucky it will be enough and work out of the box. (Though form what I've seen it doesn't but you never know).
<cub> Or would that mean we should go for FFe?
<smartboyhw> cub, here's the situation.
<zequence> cub: Just add the application(s) you want right away
<smartboyhw> Of course we can easily get orca within our seeds
<smartboyhw> And before FF
<smartboyhw> BUT, after FeatureFreeze if you want to make it work better in Xfce and make it available, you need FFe.
<zequence> cub: There's nothing preventing us to add anything we want
<zequence> except common sense of course..
<cub> zequence, how and where do I make the "application"?
<smartboyhw> cub, the seeds
<zequence> cub: Have you checked the seeds yet?
<cub> ah sorry misunderstodd
<zequence> Just read through the files, and you'll know how it works
<cub> I mixed up application as in program and application as in "application form". :P
<zequence> We don't need to ask anyones permission
<zequence> We just add what we want
<cub> zequence, yes I have checked them and all the information I would add is actually already in the desktop-gnome file.
<zequence> or, what we need, more accurately
<cub> but I have a few other questions around how to do it, but won't have time to start meddling with that until the weekend.
<zequence> cub: The desktop-gnome file is not used for anything. It's there for testing the gnome deskto
<zequence> nothing in the desktop-gnome file ends up on the image
<zequence> Let me remove it..
<cub> yeah I talked to OvenWerks about that. But the correct formatting for gnome-orca is in there so I would just copy that to the correct desktop file.
<zequence> cub: Well, sure. What is that you need for it anyway, besides "orca"
<zequence> ?
<cub> Only the dependencies
<smartboyhw> cub, the dependencies will get automatically in
<zequence> cub: You don't need to list dependencies
<cub> exactly
<smartboyhw> So, just need to add orca
<cub> yes.
<OvenWerks> Added gnome-orca to desktop
<smartboyhw> OvenWerks, we need a ubuntustudio-meta upload for that
<OvenWerks> It should show in the next ISO
<smartboyhw> micahg can help:P
<cub> did you do it already OvenWerks ?
<zequence> OvenWerks: cub is supposed to do that, so he learns how it works
<OvenWerks> The meta upload is not neede for seeds
<OvenWerks> Would you like it undone cub?
<smartboyhw> OvenWerks, but if somebody installs it using Stock Ubuntu, it might be better to use the metas
<smartboyhw> it = Ubuntu Studio
<smartboyhw> Every time when there is a seed update, it would be the best to also at the same time update the meta.
<zequence> OvenWerks: Never mind. And also, cub is not working on the main branch. He's working on a separate branch that he'd need to do merge requests from
<cub> No leave it in. Then I can compare with my "version" and I might add the brltty as well to improve on the braille output
<OvenWerks> micahg will do it when he is back
<OvenWerks> He seems to be out for the week.\
 * smartboyhw thinks OvenWerks and zequence should learn to do a meta-upload
 * cub is tuning in on the xubuntu-devel meeting
<zequence> I removed desktop-gnome as well now
<zequence> We won't need the seed file anyway, even if we will be providing metas for other DEs
<zequence> as they won't be on the image, but need to be downloaded - if installed, even during installation
<OvenWerks> zequence: is our metas branch derived from seeds? (or partly)
<zequence> OvenWerks: Yes, fully. But, we can also add metas that have specific lists of dependencies - not deriving from seeds
<zequence> In the case of all of our current metas, we want them all to be on the image, so using seeds is needed
<OvenWerks> Ya, ok that is what I meant by partly, the seeded metas plus others
<zequence> We don't have others currently. Only metas generated from seeds
<OvenWerks> ok
<zequence> The additional DEs should probably not be on the image, so they should also not be in seeds
<OvenWerks> I hadn't looked that close
<OvenWerks> I agree
<OvenWerks> For those who didn't see, xubuntu will not run xMIR for 13.10
<smartboyhw> So we won't.
<knome> smartboyhw, you can if you want.
<OvenWerks> knome: we will probably lag behind xubuntu.
<knome> sure, but please realize that you're not locked with X with our decision :)
<OvenWerks> however, we will be doing testing with MIR as it shows up and stablizes as some of work will end up on DEs that do use MIR.
<knome> yup
<knome> sounds fair
<Navion> Does anyone know of a a cheap (under $150 US) 1U appliance that can run Ubuntu Studio? Would be cool if it could run from a 12V power supply.
<OvenWerks> zequence: I think I can put another entry in the grub menu above what is now the default that will always be the latest lowlatency kernel.
<OvenWerks> (without putting a patch against grub)
<OvenWerks> The end result would be:
<OvenWerks> UbuntuStudio (lowlatency)
<OvenWerks> UbuntuStudio
<OvenWerks> Advanced Options
<OvenWerks> etc.
<OvenWerks> The second item would hit the same kernel as the first if it happened to be the latest of all kernels.
<OvenWerks> I could also put:
<OvenWerks> UbuntuStudio (lowlatency)
<OvenWerks> Advanced Options
<OvenWerks> The grub menu the way it is now...
<OvenWerks> That would make it seem that there was one more partition than there is.
<OvenWerks> That is why I chose the first option.
<OvenWerks> The third option is to replace /etc/grub.d/10_linux with our own version. Bad idea as a grub update will either fail or overwrite it.
<OvenWerks> option 4... chmod -x /etc/grub.d/10_linux (one of the suggested methods actually) but I don't know what happens on grub being updayed to a new version... same as above...
<zequence> OvenWerks: No way to make the first entry be rule based, i.e. if there is lowlatency, make that default, else whatever else
<zequence> ?
<zequence> I'd rather just have:
<zequence> Ubuntu Studio
<zequence> Advanced Options
<zequence> I think it would be a good idea to have a real meeting at least at every second UDS
<zequence> so, right after release, in October/November, there will be one
<zequence> I'm really set on creating a solid planning for next cycle
<zequence> Just mentioning..
<zequence> Need to think about this some more. 
<zequence> I'm really starting to get a good grasp of how we can make LP, projects and blueprints useful
<zequence> Still a couple of months away, so not really important right now
<OvenWerks> zequence: yes the top/default can be rule based. I am just rtying it on a partition that actually has some generic kernels... that are newer than the lowlatency.
<OvenWerks> back in a bit... will be doing some rebooting :)
<zequence> Ah, seems I messed up the seeds :P
<OvenWerks> I will take pictures.
<OvenWerks> opps
<zequence> I forgot to remove desktop-gnome from STRUCTURE
<zequence> should work tomorrow
<OvenWerks> !paste
<ubottu> For posting multi-line texts into the channel, please use http://paste.ubuntu.com | To post !screenshots use http://imagebin.org/?page=add | !pastebinit to paste directly from command line | Make sure you give us the URL for your paste - see also the channel topic.
<OvenWerks> zequence: http://imagebin.org/268425
<OvenWerks> zequence: that is just with adding 09_lowlatency to /etc/grub.d/
<OvenWerks> Not touching any of the files grub installs
<OvenWerks> If I can replace or disable 10_linux in the same directory without making trouble for upgrades to the grub package(s) I could do anything :)
<OvenWerks> I would rather make patches to grub upstream (either in the ubuntu package if it is already a patched version, or farther upstream if not.
<OvenWerks> It could be there is a ubuntu version of the /etc/grub.d/ files that is in it's own package... in which case we can make a ubuntustudio-grub.
<zequence> OvenWerks: Nice work. Getting a bit late here. Will be in sporadically tomorrow. 
<zequence> Maybe on saturday I could get some time to do something useful
<OvenWerks> zequence: if that is ok, I will add it as is to -settings for 13.10
<zequence> OvenWerks: So, how does it work now, exactly?
<OvenWerks> zequence: it takes the code that 10_linux has, which makes the current partition part of the menu and just takes the first kernel with the word lowlatency in it.
<OvenWerks> instead of looping, it ends after it has made one menu entry.
<OvenWerks> Then 10_linux starts over and adss the normal stuff
<zequence> OvenWerks: And if there's no lowlatency kernel?
<OvenWerks> I may have to do an install to see, I think it just keeps going, but I will make sure
<OvenWerks> I may have to add an if statement, because the loop sort of tookcare of that, but I will check.. if that works and it looks good I will add it. If it ends as a bug It is a one file removal.
<OvenWerks> micahg: was wondering what happened to the two packages (-installer and -menu).
<OvenWerks> I got the idea you were looking at them last weekend.
<Noskcaj> OvenWerks, my branch is at https://code.launchpad.net/~noskcaj/ubuntustudio/ubuntustudio-menu 
<Noskcaj> Everything looks ready though, just add a -0ubuntu1
<TheDrums> That's generally used if there's Ubuntu cruft over a Debian package.
<OvenWerks> Noskcaj: why? all of the the ubuntustudio- packages are numbered
<Noskcaj> OvenWerks, Isn't it a requirement, in case debian ever get's the package? if not, ignore me
<OvenWerks> Noskcaj: thankyou for the stuff in control
<OvenWerks> Noskcaj: another dumb question... least it seems it should be dumb.. is there a way to do direct merging or do I need to merge with a branch on my system and push?
<Noskcaj> OvenWerks, i think you have to go onto your system. That's the only way i know
<OvenWerks> ok.
<OvenWerks> Noskcaj: it makes sense, that is the only way it can make a (two) secure transaction(s).
<OvenWerks> Noskcaj: What would be my next step?
<Noskcaj> OvenWerks, Wait for a MOTU or core dev to upload this. So be vocal in the -motu and -devel channels
#ubuntustudio-devel 2013-08-23
<smartboyhw> Hey cub 
<smartboyhw> Unfortunately, we still can't release 12.04.3 yet:P
<cub> doh
<cub> what's holding it back?
<cub> and good morning smartboyhw :P
<smartboyhw> cub, Wubi.
<smartboyhw> And late respins of alternates
<smartboyhw> Wubi is seemingly the biggest problem though
<cub> but that's not only for US, but affects everyone?
<cub> adn wubi schmubi! ;)
<smartboyhw> cub, EVERYONE
<smartboyhw> That will mean we will have to wait until America wakes up
<smartboyhw> Well, we aren't anxious for this release at least:P
<Noskcaj> :'(
<smartboyhw> Anyways
 * cub likes to keep deadlines
<smartboyhw> cub, it was extended to Fridays sometimes
<cub> smartboyhw, hon the G+ page you replied "After the Xubuntu meeting, the Ubuntu Studio developers have agreed that we are not going to include Mir. Some of the factors are Xubuntu-related I can say, but because we think that Mir is unstable enough. " but I can't see anything in the logs that there was a decision made?
<smartboyhw> cub, well, that's at least mine and OvenWerks's idea
<smartboyhw> And I think zequence has not objected to that.
<cub> Sure, the discussions have pointed to "probably not until 14.10" but I think I have missed any final decision on the issue?
<smartboyhw> cub, just look at yesterday's logs (after the meeting for #ubuntustudio-devel)
<cub> I did.
<smartboyhw> cub, now "probably no until 14.10" is wrong
<cub> three times.
<smartboyhw> cub, can you clarify the "probably not until 14.10" part?
<smartboyhw> In G+
<cub> the 14.10 comment is not on G+, it is my conclusion from the discussion that have been made here in the channel.
<smartboyhw> cub, OvenWerks	For those who didn't see, xubuntu will not run xMIR for 13.10	15:38
<smartboyhw> smartboyhw	So we won't.	15:39
<smartboyhw> knome	smartboyhw, you can if you want.	15:39
<smartboyhw> OvenWerks	knome: we will probably lag behind xubuntu.	15:39
<smartboyhw> knome	sure, but please realize that you're not locked with X with our decision :)	15:41
<smartboyhw> OvenWerks	however, we will be doing testing with MIR as it shows up and stablizes as some of work will end up on DEs that do use MIR.	15:42
<smartboyhw> knome	yup	15:42
<smartboyhw> knome	sounds fair
<smartboyhw> We didn't EVER say 14.10
<smartboyhw> At least yesterday
<cub> yes. But that is a two row discussion. I don't see that as a definite decision until zequence says so.
<smartboyhw> zequence, are you in support of Mir?
<cub> And no, as I wrote my 14.10 comment is my conclusion after earlier discussions here in this channel.
<smartboyhw> cub, em, obviously your second comment is WRONG.
<cub> :D how can it be wrong?
<smartboyhw> cub, sure, give me evidence to why you think it's 14.10.
<smartboyhw> Maybe we said it before, but I don't remember it
<cub> it's my interpretation of the discussions from several weeks back. It can't be wrong or right.
<smartboyhw> cub, several weeks BACK, oh
 * smartboyhw forgotten
<cub> smartboyhw, I think you misunderstand me. I don't mean a particular sentence at one specific time. When there has been discussions from time to time 14.10 keeps coming up as a possble earliest time. Nothing set in stone or decided. Just discussions.
<smartboyhw> cub, let's see anyway
<smartboyhw> Now, if zequence says yes to XMir for 13.10, I think that IS surprising:P
<cub> yeah
<smartboyhw> Maybe I should edit my G+ comment to "most"
<smartboyhw> At least, me and OvenWerks 
<cub> I wouldn't run it on any important computer yet. Then again, 13.04 messed up my laptop bad in an important meeting after release. :D
<smartboyhw> lol lol
<cub> I was not a happy camper.
<cub> I was the one supposed to take the meeting notes as well.
<cub> "Sorry my computer just died and deleted the last 30 minutes of discussions". :P
<smartboyhw> huh
<cub> and when it happened four times during the meeting people started to get a bit annoyed.
<cub> So, I run 12.04 now. :PO
<smartboyhw> oh oh
<smartboyhw> cub, yeah, it's at least LTS:P
<cub> Jono Bacon is coming to Stockholm in November. I'm hoping to facilitate so I can be on the sessions
<smartboyhw> cub, oh>
<smartboyhw> ?
<cub> http://internetdagarna.se/english/ He's one of the keynote speakers
<smartboyhw> I do hope to meet people like jcastro when OpenStack Summit happens in HK
<cub> though in the programme it seems Jono will only do a 30 minutes session..:/
<smartboyhw> that's better than 0, cub 
<cub> yes, but it's 125 euro
<smartboyhw> Hah
<smartboyhw> cub, well it's 150 USD here too
<smartboyhw> But I heard that if I submit some code, I can go in for free.
<cub> but that would be an ubuntu event?
<smartboyhw> And that's from a Ubuntu Community Council member:P
<smartboyhw> cub, NO
<smartboyhw> OpenStack is cloud technologyu
<smartboyhw> Ofc, Ubuntu Cloud support OpenStack
<cub> aha the one you mentioned
<smartboyhw> cub, yep
<cub> The internet days in Stockholm is arranged by a government company. No free admissions here!
<cub> zequence, are you around?
<cub> smartboyhw, you used trello.com right? I got an invite to a new system KanbanJovi that's tied into Google Hangout.
<smartboyhw> cub: eh?
<smartboyhw> Hello DarkEra:)
<smartboyhw> cub: what's that?
<smartboyhw> I mean, KanbanJovi
<DarkEra> hi smartboyhw
 * smartboyhw uses Trello for Kubuntu
<knome> brother of jon bon jovi?
<cub> A similar service but you can start a google hangout directly from the board.
<cub> knome, my thoughts too when I got the link..hehe
<smartboyhw> cub: oh
 * smartboyhw doesn't normally use Google+ Hangouts so don't ask him
<cub> aha then it's to no use for you. :)
<smartboyhw> Sigh, time to sign up for a Ubuntu Member certificate...
<cub> I thought you were already
<cub> oh wait cert
<smartboyhw> cub: cert:P
<knome> what's the point of the cert?
<smartboyhw> knome: university applications (LOL)
<cub> CV?
<knome> hah
<knome> but it's quite easy to get the membership, right
<smartboyhw> knome: Right, that's why I'm going in for MORE programs.
<cub> Is it? I've skimmed the process pages but gave up. :D
<smartboyhw> I will participate in Google Code-In this year.
<cub> smartboyhw, cool. 
<knome> cub, i mean in the sense that if you contribute to ubuntu, you will eventually get it
<knome> cub, you don't really need to specifically think about it
<smartboyhw> cub: One day when we think you are ready to apply, we will tell you. (So as DarkEra)
<cub> haha ok
<smartboyhw> cub: For how long have you joined us?
<cub> oh I don't know what date that might count as "official"
<smartboyhw> cub: Just when?
<knome> smartboyhw, oi, don't pressure the guy
<cub> I've been active in the community since 2004ish
<cub> but I didn't hang out in thhis channel until a couple of months ago or something
<smartboyhw> cub: Uh!
<smartboyhw> knome: I'm not pressuring, just knowing when:P
<cub> but I'm not listed in any wiki pages so I guess I'm a hangaround. :P
<smartboyhw> cub: we will list you one day, for sure.
<smartboyhw> You seem to be even better than me:P
<cub> well I'm not here for the glory. :D
<smartboyhw> cub: Of course:)
<smartboyhw> :P
<cub> I'm here for World Domination.
<cub> ;D
<smartboyhw> cub: oh
<smartboyhw> Well, this is a small world.
<smartboyhw> If you want to be in a bigger world, work much harder.
<zequence> smartboyhw: cub: It is true that we are following Xubuntu on this, and that has been the general idea all along
<zequence> But, we haven't really agreed on anything
<zequence> I mean, we haven't taken a stand, as the question hasn't really been out specifically
<zequence> If Xubuntu would have chosen to go with XMir, then it would have been something to discuss
<zequence> So, in this way it would be incorrect to claim that we have agreed on something about XMir
<smartboyhw> OK, /me deletes post
<zequence> smartboyhw: It's ok
<smartboyhw> zequence: or, do you want me to change it to another form?
<zequence> smartboyhw: If you want, you could edit it. But, I personally don't think it's that important
<zequence> good to think about this in the future though. It can be tricky to speak on behalf of an organization sometimes
<smartboyhw> zequence: yeah
<cub> many seem to have strong opinions around the question as well
<smartboyhw> Anyways, zequence we aren't doing it for 13.10 right?
<zequence> smartboyhw: No. There's no reason to start doing that this late in the game, especially since Xubuntu is not doing it
<smartboyhw> Phew:)
<zequence> Our main interest is to offer a practical and stable solution for multimedia. A further goal is to become DE agnostic. So for us, the discussion about technologies is not idelogically as important
<zequence> But, of course, if any of us feel very strongly about Mir, those opinions should of course be aired
<cub> Nah if it works and use less resources I will probably use it. But that's possible no matter what we ship as default.
<smartboyhw> Well, I like Mir, tbh
<smartboyhw> But, not stable enough
<smartboyhw> Quite different from my Kubuntu people who has more hatred towards it:P
<cub> zequence, when you have the time I have a couple of questions around the seed stuff
<zequence> cub: shoot
<cub> When downloading the seed, should I do "bzr branch" as we talked about, or "bzr checkout" as the https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SeedManagement instructs?
<smartboyhw> bzr branch
<cub> 2) When I'm going to upload, should I do that to the lp:~ubuntustudio-contributors/ubuntu-seeds/ubuntustudio.saucy or my personal lp?
 * smartboyhw recommends personal lp, dunno for zequence
<zequence> cub: We don't say upload, we say push. And, if you just do "bzr push", it will push to where you got the branch
<zequence> cub: you should push to the contributor branch
<cub> Shouldn't I do commit before push?
<zequence> doesn't matter if it gets messed up. That's the point in having that branch
<zequence> cub: Yeah
<smartboyhw> cub: ofc
<zequence> cub: make one commit for each change
<zequence> cub: if you add one application, commit it separately
<zequence> It's a good general rule
<cub> so I could make one change, one commit, a new change, a new commit, then push?
<smartboyhw> yep
<zequence> yeah
<cub> and last one for the actual desktop file
<zequence> which desktop file?
<zequence> seeds don't have desktop files. Just instructions on which packages to include on the image
<cub> there's only one file called "desktop"..?
<zequence> Ah, right
<smartboyhw> cub: Oh, you mean that desktop
<cub> :)
<cub> to my understanding I should put in: * gnome-orca
<zequence> cub: do this. edit "desktop". do "bzr status"
<cub> and not: * (gnome-orca)
<zequence> cub: It should say "desktop" was changed
<zequence> then do: bzr commit -m "your message"
 * smartboyhw wonders should gnome-orca be really a hard depend instead of recommends
<cub> ok 
<cub> smartboyhw, I'm not sure. But if it's in (gnome-orca) it won't be included when you boot from a USB?
<smartboyhw> cub: Let me check
<cub> but I don't have run germinate locally before I commit or push?
<smartboyhw> cub: I think so
<cub> smartboyhw, about which question?
<smartboyhw> network-manager-gnome is included in the ISO with a recommends
<smartboyhw> cub: hard depend or recommends
<cub> ok
<smartboyhw> For gnome-orca
<smartboyhw> zequence: what's your view?
<cub> in the desktop-gnome file that was in the seed it list "* ati-spi2-core" and then "* (gnome-orca)" and "* (brltty)" so perhaps the best way to go?
<smartboyhw> cub: gnome-orca is included in the ISOs for ubuntu-gnome
<zequence> To my understanding recommends will be included unless you do: apt-get install --no-install-recommends
<smartboyhw> Which, I think images do install recommends
<cub> ok
<zequence> I think it's better to set it to recommends, if it's not absolutely needed
<smartboyhw> It should be recommends
<smartboyhw> I think
<zequence> Job interview on Monday. Starting to hold my thumbs already :P
<cub> I'll give it a shot, push and then someone will take a look I suppose?
<zequence> cub: OvenWerks already added gnome-orca
<smartboyhw> zequence: what's the job?
<zequence> cub: What you could do is first pull from the main branch
<smartboyhw> zequence: did he add he as a recommends?
<smartboyhw> (it
<zequence> then push to contributors
<cub> yeah I know. But not in the contributor branch
<smartboyhw> Even OvenWerks make it as a recommends;P
<cub> smartboyhw, he put it as recommends
<smartboyhw> cub: so you should!
<zequence> cub: One nice way to keep track of branches is to add them as variables. Add to your .bashrc: export SEEDS=lp:~ubuntustudio-dev/ubuntu-seeds/ubuntustudio.saucy
<zequence> then just: bzr pull $SEEDS
<smartboyhw> zequence: you missed a source ~/.bashrd
<smartboyhw> *~/.bashrc
<OvenWerks> cub: The reason to use recomends, is that in the case of a depends, if someone decides to remove that application it then removed the whole meta.
<smartboyhw> Which will be a disaster:P
<OvenWerks> cub: but if it is a recomends then removing one app just removes that app.
<zequence> cub: You need to either do: "source ~/.bashrc" to reload the settings, or start a new terminal shell
<cub> OvenWerks, that would suck. :D
<OvenWerks> cub sometimes knowing why helps things make sense
<zequence> Well, the meta would be removed, but not the applications for it
<smartboyhw> zequence: What if a user runs sudo apt-get autoremove?:P
<OvenWerks> there is also a difference in things installed by the ISO (first install) and metas installed after that.
<zequence> smartboyhw: Shouldn't remove things, I don't think
<smartboyhw> zequence: I doubt that.
<zequence> give it a try
<zequence> remove a ubuntustudio meta, and see if autoremove wants to remove some apps from the meta
<zequence> one which has recommends in it
 * smartboyhw tries
<zequence> OvenWerks: I put out the question on #ubuntu-devel as well
<zequence> OvenWerks: Are you subscribing to the ubuntu-motu mail list? I'm thinking maybe that could be effective as well
<OvenWerks> Thank you I was about to do that
<OvenWerks> I will try the ML
<smartboyhw> OvenWerks: yeah, you're correct!
<smartboyhw> Oops, that's to zequence:P
 * OvenWerks thinks it shouldn't be this hard
<OvenWerks> cub, smartboyhw: Re (x)MIR, It is pretty much a non-issue for us. From our pov, while we use xfce, MIR should act like a drop in replacement for X. That is all apps built against the X libs should function.
<smartboyhw> OvenWerks: the problem is that at 14.04 there will be NO fallback from XMir to X.
<OvenWerks> yes. but it still has to act like X to an x program. I don't know the future plans of the MIR team, but, I think being x like in the future may also mean accepting wayland commands.
<OvenWerks> I don't know if there are plans for that or not.
<smartboyhw> OvenWerks: Just ask in #ubuntu-mir:
<smartboyhw> :P
<OvenWerks> If MIR works really well and gets released in thhe debian side of things... and works better than...
<OvenWerks> then it may not matter so much.
<OvenWerks> it might even become standard.
<OvenWerks> upstart and systemd came out at the same time and most of the linux world has gone systemd, that doesn't seem to matter much as that interface only stops and starts things, any admin should be up to the task of writing a config in either case.
<OvenWerks> with MIR/X/wayland, the SW is interacting with it all the time. It affects machine performance and feel. People are much more likely to select which they use based on feel.
<OvenWerks> If MIR is being used while wayland is still in development, that will change things too.
<OvenWerks> this is even more true if MIR is noticably faster/smoother than x
<cub> zequence, where's the job interview and what kind of work?
<OvenWerks> unity has been slow on x (my experience), but if MIR can make it perform better than xfce on x, then they have solved one of unity's biggest downsides.
<zequence> cub: It's through Manpower/Expiris. Not sure for what yet. They've sent my CV to a couple of places, Ericson among others
<cub> alright
<zequence> Something Unix-y
<cub> You mean something GNU/linux-y ;)
<zequence> cub: Maybe. Depends on the job :/
<zequence> Of course, I'd rather play with penguins then Eunuchs
<zequence> Mostly just cause I feel bad for eunuchs. Nothing wrong with them otherwise
<OvenWerks> smartboyhw: where do I run bzr launchpad-login? Does it need to be run on every package?
<OvenWerks> I set it.
<OvenWerks> I will see on my next push if it works
<cub> isn't that saved in your ./bazaar/bazaar.conf after the first time?
<OvenWerks> It looks like a once only thing.
<OvenWerks> It may be something got lost when I reistalled the OS
<cub> hehe that might be it.
<zequence> Not sure if it's a Xubuntu/Ubuntu Studio thing
<zequence> But, makes sense about logging in while in the branch
<OvenWerks> It did work when I used it the first few times
<zequence> I haven't thought about that. And, also, haven't put so much effort on it. After all - you need an ssh key to push
<zequence> So, it's secure in that way
<smartboyhw> OvenWerks: It's run once:)
<OvenWerks> Thanks
<OvenWerks> I will see when I do the next -settings push
<OvenWerks> smartboyhw: did you see this: http://imagebin.org/268425 ?
<smartboyhw> OvenWerks: I admit I didn't.
<OvenWerks> That is on a machine that also has newer generic kernels on it.
<smartboyhw> Now I did:P
<smartboyhw> But for the god's sake, why is there a Ubuntu 11.04?!?!!?
<OvenWerks> It will show ubuntustudio, but that is a different patch
<OvenWerks> (different directory too)
<smartboyhw> Great
<OvenWerks> I am not sure if the current 10_linux is the same as debian or already patched by ubuntu, but I would like to send a patch upstream that allows the user/distro to flag a kind of kernel to be default... such as lowlatency or RT or whatever
 * OvenWerks celbrates the releaase of his first ever sw package :)
<smartboyhw> OvenWerks: \o/
 * smartboyhw hugs OvenWerks
<OvenWerks> ubuntustudio-installer is now in the ubuntu repos
<smartboyhw> OvenWerks: NOT YET
<smartboyhw> It still needs to go through NEW I imagine
<smartboyhw> Yep, xnox confirmed it
<smartboyhw> It hasn't appeared yet:P
<OvenWerks> thats ok, I still have to do settings to get it to work right. That is what I am working on now.
<smartboyhw> OvenWerks: Let me tell Riddell to be specifically straight in ubuntustudio-installer NEW review, so you can taste failure (LOL)
<OvenWerks> At my age, I have tasted many failures already. Anything here is minor.
<smartboyhw> OvenWerks: at least, your first failrue of a NEW pacakge;P
<smartboyhw> *package
<cub> zequence, I just did a push to the https://code.launchpad.net/~ubuntustudio-contributors/ubuntu-seeds/ubuntustudio.saucy . I think it looks ok ...
 * cub is feeling hi-tech doing push from the bus over 3G modem
<cub> hey OvenWerks congrats on the sw package! :D nice work
<OvenWerks> Thank you.
<OvenWerks> smartboyhw: How do we get SW out of new?
<OvenWerks> can our devs test? or does it need something more?
<OvenWerks> zequence: I have tested my grub lowlatency patch on a system with no lowlatency kernels. 
<smartboyhw> OvenWerks, it will be manually reviewed
<OvenWerks> update grub runs with no errors and the boot screen is as if our addition was not there.
<OvenWerks> So it is safe either way.
<smartboyhw> zequence, I REALLY HAVE TO SLEEP. So can you do the tiresome job of updating the download links, send the announcements, post the annoucnements to website and social mediae?
<OvenWerks> smartboyhw: you may be waiting a while for that answer :)
<OvenWerks> but that should be ok
<smartboyhw> zequence, and on that reason, I think it might be a better idea if we can add ~len-ovenwerks to ~ubuntustudio-release.
<OvenWerks> I would not normally be available at this time either... but I am on hollidays :)
<smartboyhw> OvenWerks, oh:P
 * smartboyhw is on summer holiday too
<smartboyhw> But it's 00:20 here
<OvenWerks> However, if you need sleep, go do it.
<smartboyhw> That's why I hate delaying into Fridays and waiting for the Americans...
<smartboyhw> Even though we have no choice
<OvenWerks> knome: quick question, if some our our packages (like -menu) are depends of our -settings package do I (or should I) still add it to the seeds?
<OvenWerks> zequence: ^^
<xequence> OvenWerks, Yes, I think you should add it, even if you don't have to
<xequence> We should add each individual package that we explicitly want for it's own purpose, if you understand what I mean
<xequence> Some packages have their own purpose, but are also depends to others
<OvenWerks> xequence: right. Will do. I am trying to figure out why my LP id does not show up with my uploads. I will use my pushes to check changes I make.
<OvenWerks> It looks like xfce will be fixing their .menu file. This is good as we will be able to just run our merge against the stock xfce file... one less thing to maintain
<OvenWerks> xequence: our settings package has an empty /etc/skel directory. do we need it?
<xequence> OvenWerks, I suppose not :)
<OvenWerks> Ga!, there are hidden files in there after all. forget I said anything
<OvenWerks> xequence: I can't add the two packages to seeds untill -settings is uploaded. 
<OvenWerks> I am still working on that
<knome> OvenWerks, what xequence said is correct. you probably should if it's essential even if it would be pulled anyway
<OvenWerks> knome thanks. I am realizing it will have to wait till the new verion of settings is uploaded. Other wise our ISOs will break :)
<knome> :)
#ubuntustudio-devel 2013-08-24
<OvenWerks> zequence: (and othes) -settings is ready for upload as soon as -menu and -installer make it to the wild.
<OvenWerks> grub-common is quite heavily modified from debian. It would seem upstream could use a makeover/big_patch that allowed more flexability with how the menu was displayed based on one config file instead of ubuntu having to change a pile of things in lots of files.
<OvenWerks> Many of these changes could be generic rather than ubuntu specific.
<zequence> OvenWerks: Just get it uploaded now. We only have until tuesday after all
<zequence> OvenWerks: Doesn't matter if the ISO breaks. 
<zequence> Bugs can be dealed with after FF
<zequence> micahg: YOu aren't around by any chance?
<zequence> OvenWerks: I've asked to have it uploaded. A MOTU person said it would be nice to have it in a queue - following MOTU documentation about it did not clarify things much for me yet
<zequence> Sort of like a maze
<smartboyhw> zequence, it is like you report a bug and subscribe MOTU?
<cub> Hi smartboyhw , I was suprised when running an update today on my 12.04.2 that I didn't get any updates.
<smartboyhw> cub, because it's already 12.04.3
<cub> and here I was hoping for some new gadget.
<smartboyhw> cub, what new gadgets?
<zequence> smartboyhw: Yes, I think that's the way it works
<cub> I don't know. When there's an upgrade I just hope tp notice. :P
<zequence> cub: Did they stop mocking you at work, or they laughed at the cropping on your cup?
<zequence> anitklimax sort of thing
<zequence> anticlimax*
<cub> They have been quiet actually. 
<cub> Now I'm trying to get work to pay for my Internetdagarna-ticket so I can get the chance to meet Jono.
<cub> but good service from Spreadshirt to send a new one, no hassle.
<OvenWerks> zequence: good call. Thanks. micah won't be around till later. 
<smartboyhw> zequence, BTW, please post to social mediae about the 12.04.3 release.
<cub> If  I would like to add a keyboard shortcut as deafult in the next release. Where in ubuntustudio-default-settings do I find that?
<smartboyhw> OvenWerks, ^
<smartboyhw> cub, you will have to give us a justification of why that shortcut will be convenient to most users though:P
<cub> I have two suggestions: ctrl + alt + t which is default in any other xfce release, except ubuntu studio
<cub> and something to start Orca with on the live boot
<smartboyhw> cub, for the second one: Maybe ask why Xubuntu didn't use it?
 * smartboyhw thinks we inherit these from Xubuntu
<smartboyhw> Oops, first one:P
<smartboyhw> Second one we can add it
<cub> yes, they have added it back now.
<smartboyhw> cub, then why we didn't?
<cub> I don't know?
<smartboyhw> And maybe check where the shourtcuts are defined in Xubuntu?
<cub> I have only traced it to "xubuntu-default-settings" but can't find where in there it is
<cub> I figured someone might know right away instead of searching for it further
<OvenWerks> cub I am sure we can find it.
<OvenWerks> teh first thing is to find where it goes in your home directory
<OvenWerks> perhaps /etc/xdg/xdg-xubuntu/xfce4/xfconf/xfce-perchannel-xml/xfce4-keyboard-shortcuts.xml?
<OvenWerks> property name="&lt;Super&gt;t" type="string" value="exo-open --launch TerminalEmulator"/>
<OvenWerks> opps missed the < on the front of that
<OvenWerks> To add that to ubuntustudio look for the same file, but replace the xdg-xubuntu with xdg-ubuntustudio.
<OvenWerks> ubuntustudio-default-settings has had a lot of chnages, so you may wish to do a bzr pull to make sure it is mostly up to date.
<OvenWerks> cub: just so you know, the first time you log in, that whole directory gets copied to your home directory in ~/.config/xfce4/
<cub> ok, thanks for the info. I will poke around and get familiar before I actually will change anything.
<OvenWerks> No problem. It may not make it for 13.10, but 14.04 should be fine.
<cub> Why not? Isn't FF the 29th?
<OvenWerks> It has been taking a lot of time just getting the packages released
<cub> On the other hand, it might already be there if we pull anything from xubuntu
<OvenWerks> No we don't, it is not there.
<cub> aha and another change in the default-settings require a new release?
<OvenWerks> not yet.
<OvenWerks> we are waiting for someone to help us release it.
<cub> ok
<smartboyhw> Well, if it is just a keyboard shortcut change, I will rather opt for applying for a FFe.
<OvenWerks> so changes today should be ok.
<smartboyhw> After FF
<cub> It would be good to be able to add as UBuntu CTRL + S to start Orca on the live session.
<OvenWerks> Is that what xubuntu does?
<cub> no "normal" ubuntu
<smartboyhw> OvenWerks, does Xubuntu include Orca in the first place?
<cub> xubuntu doesn't include orca
<cub> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Accessibility
<OvenWerks> If xubuntu's shortcuts are mostly the same, we could import their file as is.
<cub> Starting Orca on the Live CD
<cub> download and burn the Ubuntu ISO boot from it wait until you hear a sound from your sound card. This may take several minutes on a CD drive. press CTRL+s Within a few minutes, Ubuntu will be loaded with Orca running"
<smartboyhw> cub, live session ONLY?
<cub> I'm not sure, but when discussed I think knome said they had included it again
<cub> smartboyhw, yes live only. Otherwise it might collide with the other standard ctrl+s I suppose
<OvenWerks> If that happens before xfce loads it is not a shortcut
<smartboyhw> cub, what if Ctrl+S is included in live?
<cub> that's what I was going to check when asking about the files :)
<cub> It's a rather strange choice, I think, but if Ubuntu use it it might be good to try to keep the same.
<OvenWerks> cub does the control s have to happen while plymouth is still running?
<OvenWerks> (ubuntu on screen with moving dots?)
<cub> no it's once the session is loaded and you can click the "Install" icon
<OvenWerks> ok
<cub> however, a blind person wouldn't be able to tell if plymouth is running still or not
<cub> and might press ctrl+s too early. Would that mess something up?
<cub> :D
<OvenWerks> But it sounds like the sound doesn't happen till the session starts
<cub> I think it refers to the old drum roll
<OvenWerks> That is orca gets loaded as part of the session.
<cub> which is not there anymore is it?
<OvenWerks> I think what you have is a script that gets run from the session startup that looks for a ctl s and then once the user has selected it... the autostart has it added.
<cub> I think we could also do a wiki for the accessibility installation and instead do "press ALT+F2 and type 'orca --replace'"
<cub> No need for keyboard shortcut, but requires the person to type alright without a screen reader
<cub> sadly though, the last apt-get upgrade made orca not running at all in Saucy.
<OvenWerks> cub: one other difficulty with orca and studio... is that with some of the (semi)pro audio cards come up silent.
<OvenWerks> I would think a blind person would have their internal audio connected though... (I don't)
 * OvenWerks disables internal audio in bios
<cub> Before the initial installtion one could hope that the internal audio is connected
<OvenWerks> I think a blind person is more likely to leave the internal sound active
<OvenWerks> cub: -settings is being reviewed now. SO I can't add anything.
<cub> Ok
<OvenWerks> cub: I would suggest you put a bug in marked "wishlist" and mark yourself as "assigned to"
<cub> I'm not sure that the Ubuntu Accessibility page is up to date either. My tests on Ubuntu Saucy the shortcut didn't work and the screen reader kind of worked but read "Menu icon", Menu icon, menu icon for everything which wasn't really helpful when trying to find like firefox. :D
<cub> OvenWerks, for the ctrl+alt+t?
<OvenWerks> a work in progress then.
<OvenWerks> yes
<cub> ah ok
<cub> bbl
<OvenWerks> cub: when you do the change log after you have added it, put (lp: #bugnumber) at the end of your line and use debcommit. That will auto add the --fixes to the commit which will clear the bug when that is released.
<cub> Any particular reason Ubuntu Studio ship gedit instead of mousepad?
<holstein> i prefer it
<holstein> it can be changed..
<holstein> i think it was to stay more like main ubuntu and the older ubuntustudio
<cub> nah I use neither. Was just reading on applications that work well with Orca.
<holstein> less change all at once at least
<OvenWerks> cub: that was what was voted at the time.
<holstein> yeah.. and i might have been the deciding vote or whatever.. but im with you guys
 * smartboyhw likes gedit
<smartboyhw> Sorry:P
<OvenWerks> we have no reason to use a minimal editor. We are not trying to save space. We already have the libs anyway. gedit has more "usefulness"
<smartboyhw> cub, does mousepad give you code syntax support?
<OvenWerks> cub: I think mouse pad had problems at the time as well.
<OvenWerks> xubuntu was using leafpad at the time
<OvenWerks> some of our branches have been updated to a new bzr version.
<OvenWerks> be warned you may have to rebranch to use them... so don't do much work without trying a pull first... and rebranch if  needed.
<cub> Ah no I have no interest in mousepad. I was just reading up on Orca and Xfce and it came up that mousepad apparently worked well with Orca, while other applications didn't. I think from a Orca POV gedit is better since Orca comes from Gnome.
<OvenWerks> zequence, knome, TheDrums, micahg: We now have two packages in proposed (and one in new), is there action we need to take? or will they get to the wild on their own?
<OvenWerks> After monkeying around google and ubuntu search engines, I am not finding anything usefull
<zequence> OvenWerks: I think they are automatically transferred after a little while, not sure actually
<zequence> That's for the packages in -proposed
<zequence> I have no idea about new
<TheDrums> For Debian NEW, it just takes a little time, and for Ubuntu proposed, things get lined up and make sure there's no breakage.
<OvenWerks> holstein: so far as I know, Ardour will start jackd if it is not running. The problem is it starts jackd and not jackdbus
<OvenWerks> killall -9 jackd fixes that though.
<OvenWerks> zequence: Are we still supporting 10.04? There is a (or more bugs) against ubuntustudio-menu in that era. Can I at least mark it as won't fix?
<OvenWerks> No I can't ok Invalid then...
#ubuntustudio-devel 2013-08-25
<cub> OvenWerk1, are you around?
<smartboyhw> Sure, the one asking for help isn't around:P
<OvenWerk1> smartboyhw: My BZR pushes link again....
<smartboyhw> OvenWerk1, :O
<smartboyhw> AGAIN!?
<OvenWerk1> Ya, it worked when I first started then stopped..
<smartboyhw> Eh
<smartboyhw> WEIRD
<OvenWerk1> It seems I needed to put <> around my address
<smartboyhw> OvenWerk1, it's like
<smartboyhw> bzr whoami "Howard Chan <smartboyhw@gmail.com>"
<smartboyhw> bzr launchpad-login smartboyhw
<smartboyhw> (PLEASE DO NOT USE MY DATA OR INFORMATION OR I WILL KILL YOU:P)
<OvenWerk1> Why would I do that?
<smartboyhw> OvenWerk1, I am not talking about you, but who knows
<OvenWerk1> Anyway, All fixed.
<OvenWerk1> I think I have done any of the mods I will do for 13.10
<smartboyhw> OvenWerk1, that's good;)
<smartboyhw> Now we can plan for 14.04 (LOL)
<OvenWerk1> ardour3
<OvenWerk1> netjack2 with opus
 * OvenWerk1 thinks he might do some patches for grub2 upstream
<OvenWerk1> So what is the package x264? And why is it failing to build? Why are we building a lucid package every night?
<smartboyhw> OvenWerk1, you mean, in Ubuntu Studio?
<smartboyhw> x264 would probably mean a codec name for me
<OvenWerk1> Ya, I get email every day
<smartboyhw> Apple stuff I think
<smartboyhw> no;p
<smartboyhw> OvenWerk1, https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/x264
<OvenWerk1> thankyou
<OvenWerk1> I don't see anywhere that it belongs to Studio though
<smartboyhw> OvenWerk1, the main question is: Why are you getting these notifications?
<OvenWerk1> âUbuntu Studio Nightlyâ team gets them
<OvenWerk1> It seems someone started this a long time ago and never turned it off
<smartboyhw> Mmm
<smartboyhw> Basically, I don't even understand the existence of Nightly team
<smartboyhw> zequence, is it possible to remove it?
<OvenWerk1> I think we have it for newer stuff too.
<OvenWerk1> The idea is that we can have current packages in a US PPA we can try.
<smartboyhw> OvenWerk1, but now that PPA is with lucid and maverick
<smartboyhw> And in ~ubuntustudio-dev we got our own PPA.
<smartboyhw> Anyways, it might be possible to stop the build charm
<OvenWerk1> I am not directly in that team
<OvenWerk1> It belongs to development
<smartboyhw> OvenWerk1, me too
<smartboyhw> OvenWerk1, would it be a better idea if I switch the x264 build recipe to "Build on request"?
<smartboyhw> OvenWerk1, or maybe you should unsubscribe to the mailign list itself
<OvenWerk1> I think we need to fix the problem. It is not a good idea to waste resources on this.
<OvenWerk1> We are building 12 packages for nothing.
<smartboyhw> zequence, what do you think? ^
<OvenWerk1> Anyone who wants "bleeding edge" is not running mavrick or lucid
<smartboyhw> OvenWerk1, and actually we have already stopped support for Lucid (let alone Maverick)
<OvenWerk1> At the very least they should be set to trunk
<OvenWerk1> I think that way they would build for whatever is current. maybe for the LTS too
<smartboyhw> OvenWerk1, yeah
<smartboyhw> Not such old rotten releases
<OvenWerk1> Also we should look at the packages, The stable release might be mature enough not to need this.
<OvenWerk1> I suspect that when these were started, the ubuntu version was not usable for some things.
<smartboyhw> OK
<OvenWerk1> Are all those packages a part of blender? (or depends?)
<smartboyhw> OvenWerk1, at least x264 isn't included in saucy
<OvenWerk1> But there is a build for it anyway
<OvenWerk1> Ga! even worse, the versions that are being built are hard coded so they are older than what is in the main repo now.
<smartboyhw> SIGH\
<smartboyhw> We should create our own nightly PPA in ~ubuntustudio-dev and just abolish this team.
<smartboyhw> i.e. ~ubuntustudio-nightly
<OvenWerk1> I stopped blender from building
<OvenWerk1> I don't know where the others are though
<OvenWerk1> smartboyhw: ok is turned off
<OvenWerk1> (the one that failed)
<OvenWerk1> owner says Andrew Hunter, but I was able to stop the recipes, so maybe we have the access to drop this team.
<OvenWerk1> Should pass it by zequence  though.
<OvenWerk1> We do have a PPA already.
<smartboyhw> OvenWerk1, OK
<OvenWerk1> smartboyhw: I have put a list of new stuff for saucy in the ML
<OvenWerk1> it can be used with whatever else happens for the saucy release notes
<smartboyhw> OvenWerk1, I know, replying. Do you remember the first name of cub?
<smartboyhw> Ah, Jimmy
<zequence> smartboyhw: OvenWerk1: That team is not apart of Ubuntu Studio anymore. Andrew still uses it for something. I know Scott was in contact with him. I could send him an email about it as well
<zequence> It's not a Ubuntu Studio team. But, it's not bothering us either, so there's no hurry to get that solved
<smartboyhw> zequence, OK...
<smartboyhw> OvenWerk1, zequence sent a reply to the list of saucy things:P
<smartboyhw> It looked like an appraisement mail-.-
<OvenWerk1> smartboyhw: you forgot Mish who did most of the icon work :)
#ubuntustudio-devel 2015-08-17
<zequence> Did an interview for manumit podcast last friday. Here's the interview http://www.musicmanumit.com/2015/08/ubuntu-studio-150816-music-manumit.html
<zequence> I'm going to install the latest build of Wily now, and make sure we are all set for FF. Also, I need to package -controls finally. 
<zequence> I'm actually going to try to do all of the work I will ever be doing for Ubuntu Studio over the next weeks, and then not be as involved anymore.
<zequence> Aming at having someone else take over before or after the release of 16.04, there around.
<zequence> We don't have a lot of candidates for that currently. I think OvenWerks is probably the only one both active and knowledgable enough.
<zequence> But, if I put this out in good time, perhaps other people will feel the urge to become involved, who are doing other things right now?
<zequence> I think it would be good for the project, if there were more people involved, in one way or another.
<zequence> I used an Audio Line CM3 for the interview. A simple Swedish made small diaphragm condenser mic :).
<astraljava> zequence: Cool! =)
#ubuntustudio-devel 2015-08-18
<zequence> For some reason ardour3(4) was not installed when I did a full install of the latest ISO.
<zequence> I'll forget about syncing with Xubuntu. No time before thursday, so I'll just upload -controls when I finish packaging it.
<zequence> Ok, new version of ubuntustudio-controls uploaded.
<holstein> zequence: how about a meeting? to discuss the lead issue?
<holstein> i would like to emulate what the other teams have/do, where, there would be voting for the lead, on a regular basis
<holstein> personally, i would also like to discuss the overall relevance, and decide if we even need to keep doing studio, generally.. 
<DalekSec> zequence: Oh dang, that's a bummer!  Moving on to Debian?  (IIRC that's what you used)
<astraljava> zequence: It's been pretty much the problem for this project since probably '09 or so. Niche market does that. My hat's off to all of you who have done so much. Wish I could have done more. =/
#ubuntustudio-devel 2015-08-19
<zequence> holstein: I'd rather use the mail list for the discussion. A regular voting would require a healthy community with more than one candidate.
<zequence> DalekSec: I might do that later. Think I will spend some time not being involved at all for a little while, and see what that is like :).
<holstein> zequence: voting is how its done.. i dont want you to just hand it over, in the background, and someone eles sits on the position, without a clear notion of the term of the office, so to speak
<holstein> thats how its done, in the other communities, i should say.. and, if we want, we can document how it is done now
<holstein> where, basically someone hands off the position, behind closed doors, and that person holds on to it til they get burned out.. that can be documented, though, i dont think its reasonable, or necessary
<holstein> we have at least 4 or 5 regular folks, who, we can see if they show up at a meeting, or not..
<holstein> i mean, if you are saying to me "no, i dont want to do that, i will just hand it off as it was handed off to me, and im not interested in there being a meeting", thats fine, just say that, and i will let it go.. entirely
<holstein> but, i see this as a chance to get a regular, and more normal setup going.. one that would mimic the xubuntu team structure, ideally
<holstein> i mean, honestly, i would think, if len is interested, he would take it over.. and that would be great... but, i would like to, ever if its just literally 3 of us, have a meeting, here, and elect him.. and define the positions, and the term of office.. when the next election is.. are we having regular meetings? etc
<zequence> holstein: I'm not against voting. But, if you want more candidates, make them appear
<zequence> I'm not going to hunt for them. In one way or another, someone will have to take over, or Ubuntu Studio dies.
<zequence> If you read my post to the mail list, you know exactly my thoughts on this. And, I'd prefer you answer it instead of writing here.
<zequence> Damn, seems like a lot of folks are having problems with no space for kernel updates in /boot (EFI installes always have a small /boot partition)
<astraljava> Not a Studio issue for me, but I have a similar problem on my laptop, where I made an LVM2 installation.
<astraljava> That is a Xubuntu installation, but all of these use the same installer nowadays, no?
<OvenWerks> astraljava: I have ubuntuserver and if I run apt-get autoremove it only keeps two kernels. on studio it keeps them all.
<astraljava> Oh, well that's not good.
<astraljava> On the laptop, there are kernel versions 18, 20, 21, 23, 25 and 26. image-extra even for 15.
<astraljava> Sorry, read that wrong. headers are left for that first list, but images are only for the last three.
<zequence> astraljava: linux-lowlatency, or -generic?
<astraljava> -generic
<zequence> Ok.
<cub> Feature Freeze is tomorrow, right? zequence I just sent an email to the list about the menu and category for Plume Creator. No obvious choice there. But if it would be decided to be included, should I add it or should you or Len perhaps? I'm a bit rusty so the safest way would be if you would add it ...
<holstein> zequence: i didnt say, "i want more candidates".. all im saying is, rather than, behind closed doors, you choosing someone, *we* get to vote, and that person knows how long they have the term
<holstein> zequence: im afraid, that i do know your thoughts on it, and that you want to just hand it off to someone, in the background..
<holstein> and, if thats what you want, thats fine. but, we need to document that.. and let newcomers know, its not a traditional ubuntu team, where, they can work towards being lead, for example.. that, it just has to come from the current lead.. and no one knows when, just when that person gets burned out, or wants to hand it off, and, to whom ever they like
<DalekSec> Well if there's no one else to hand it off to, it's not like there's much point in voting for just one option.  You'd also want someone heavily involved and actually knows what's going on.
<OvenWerks> DalekSec: :) :) heavely involved? I am not sure there is one right now.
<DalekSec> OvenWerks: Hah, well compared to others! :P
<holstein> the vote is important, to set that up, and, to state the terms of the office..
<OvenWerks> imo, knowing how is less important than knowing what.
<OvenWerks> holstein: I have no disagreement with that. We have some time anyway.
<OvenWerks> having a good idea of direction is what a leader needs.
<OvenWerks> Vision if you wish.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2015-08-20
<holstein> and, if its literally, just me and zequence voting you in, OvenWerks, and, we determine when the next vote is, thats fine with me
<holstein> i think aiming for a normal type of community, like the others, is not a bad goal
<OvenWerks> holstein: Honestly, I think there are more people around than just us three :)
<zequence> Sure, there are. But, there aren't that many possible candidates.
<zequence> If anyone can think of someone, who could/should/would be interested, now is the time to talk to that someone, and that someone will have time to prepare.
<zequence> Actually, it may be good to have a vote a few months before I pass it on, so that there's time for that someone to learn what is needed.
<zequence> Like, three months before. January, in other words. I'll mention it on the mail list.
 * DalekSec votes for himself, just to be a horrible person.
<astraljava> As if you'd be the first candidate ever to do that. :D
<zequence> cub, we can still add it after feature freeze, though we shouldn't. But, perhaps it can wait until the next LTS?
<cub> zequence, Plume Creator, waiting until the LTS we might also be able to include the re-coded 2.0 version. 
<zequence> cub: Yeah, that's what I thought too.
<zequence> Also, we have more time to figure out -writing, or whatever.
<cub> yup
<cub> As for Project Lead candidates, I was having high hopes when I started trying to contribute. However as you all know, I haven't had much time to actually do so. It would be sad to see the distro fading away entirely due to noone having the time to run it. Then again, it will do just that without people dedicating their free time volunteering. 
<astraljava> I concur, cub, and am pondering heavily on whether to volunteer as a "lay-over" leader if no one else shows up. For the time being, I don't really have any clear visions on where to take the flavor to, but at least to keep the wheels rolling would be something. This has, after all, a very soft spot in my heart after all these years. :)
<cub> I had and have ideas, but without being able to commit to the time involved it won't do anyone any good
<zequence> If we have at least one developer who can do packaging, and is committed for 2 years, then the lead does not need to be a champion at that.
<zequence> Currently, I'm the only one with upload rights. And, I will be available in the future for doing that, even though I think developers here should strive to get upload rights themselves.
<zequence> OvenWerks is capable of packagin, so if he would commit to two years, no matter being lead or not, then the lead could focus more on other things.
<zequence> I think astraljava has some idea on how to do that too.
<zequence> But, again, neither has upload rights, so they always need to ask someone else to do the uploads.
<zequence> None of us is a master at it though. And, that is a bit of a problem actually. There is always a danger that someone does something weird, or against packaging policy (Debian Policy)
<cub> in an ideal set up the project lead could "just" lead, but with a small team it proves to be necessary to get your hands dirty so to speak. Also because it's easier when you know how to make things happen within Ubuntu and upstream
<zequence> I'm thinking, whoever is elected will have the chance to learn all about the structure in the three months before taking over. I would put some effort into that. So, that's actually not a big, big problem.
<zequence> So, the candidate could be someone from outside, someone who knows about maintaining a Linux distro, but not Ubuntu Studio, or any other Ubuntu flavor specifically.
<zequence> Or, at least has some experience in software development.
<cub> yes, but someone with the time to do that for the three months as well
<zequence> Of course.
<zequence> I'm thinking of people like the AVLinux guy, or falktx, or whoever, if there is any kind of interest.
<zequence> They are sufficiently active, but it is not certain that their mind sets are good for the project. But, that is what the voters will have to determine.
<cub> yes, that's why I added a note about getting some thoughts from the future PL on where and how Ubuntu Studio is going. There's a reason some start their own distributions as they don't want a team around to meddle with things
<zequence> Yep
<astraljava> zequence: Yes, from the skillset POV, I am not worried. It's more about having enough time to think about where to drive the flavor, and how to do that.
<zequence> I'm new to this https://www.debian.org/doc/packaging-manuals/menu.html/ch3.html
<zequence> scribus doesn't have a desktop file, but it does have a menu file, which goes in /usr/share/menu/&
<zequence> scribus doesn't have a desktop file, but it does have a menu file, which goes in /usr/share/menu/
<zequence> doesn't show up in our menu though
<OvenWerks> Has scribus dropped the desktop file since 14.04 then? It had a desktop file then.
<zequence> I guess so
<zequence> I'm sure the command "update-menus" rings a bell. You see it sometimes during package installation.
<zequence> Though, I can't find what it belongs to, and how to run it.
<astraljava> I seem to recall some similar issues back in the day, can look into it tomorrow to ring some bells.
<zequence> There's a package called menu
<zequence> I'm assuming you still need a desktop file.
<zequence> Well, other packages that have menu files also has a desktop file, so I'm going to assume scribus is missing one. Reporting a bug
<zequence> If someone would like to double check, on wily...
<zequence> bug 1487031
<ubottu> bug 1487031 in scribus (Ubuntu) "desktop file missing" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1487031
<zequence> OvenWerks: If you would like to pursue upload rights, I will back you, btw. Would be about time you became an Ubuntu member as well.
<holstein> OvenWerks: i agree.. i think there are more folks that would be interested in attending a meeting
<holstein> i say, we literally just copy what the other teams do.. 
<holstein> especially, xubuntu
<zequence> scribus is fixed in Debian, but there's a problem with getting the fix downstream. I'm sure it will be fixed one way or another soonish.
<zequence> holstein: There is a discussion going on the mail list about this, so if you want to add your thoughts about it, please do
<holstein> zequence: sure.. and i waill
<holstein> will*
<holstein> zequence: unless, you are saying, i *shouldnt* say something here, i'll do both
<holstein> i mean, thats the trick.. we will need to have the meetings here, on the IRC
<holstein> the vote.. etc..
<zequence> Why is IRC better than the mail list?
<zequence> For one thing, it is pretty hard to get everyone to attend
<zequence> We already have this channel, where we can discuss things
<zequence> What's going to happen if we have a meeting, that won't happen on the mail list?
<zequence> holstein: mean, what is it that you feel will happen during a meeting that can't happen on the mail list?
<cub> a more rapid discussion which might be easier to follow, I think. But then there is the issue with finding a good time for it with time zones, work times etc
<cub> but Xubuntu also do mail list voting and decisions
<zequence> I just think that if someone has any ideas, or objections to someone elses ideas, it is easy enough to write about it on the mail list
<zequence> Usually, I find, not many have opinions anyway, so the meeting becomes more of a coffee and donuts gathering.
<zequence> Probably good for team bonding, or something, and I'm probably not very sensitive to that.
<cub> yeah, but when a couple of others then have a few questions and/or comments to different parts of that email it quickly gets complicated
<zequence> It's important to record stuff on the wiki, which is what I'm doing with the discussions we have now
<cub> but back to the question on if there would be a vote, who would vote?
<zequence> If you want, you can just hang back until there's a proposal, and then read the wiki to see if you like it or not
<cub> the team is loosely gathered unless you would just count the Core team
<zequence> I think anyone who is involved in one of the moderated or restricted teams should be allowed to vote
<zequence> And, I as I mentioned in the mail list, I can make sure everyone of those are members of -contributor
<zequence> That way, we can just say, members of -contributor are allowed to vote
<cub> I think that is a good idea.
<cub> so what is the best way to put the 15.10 iso to an usb nowadays? My experience with dd or disc creator is random at best
<zequence> dd always works for me
<zequence> I haven't been using anything else for a good while
<cub> about half the times it won't boot for me
<zequence> I wouldn't blame dd
<zequence> Don't think anything is as straight forward
<zequence> And, don't think anything else does some sort of error checking
<holstein> zequence: irc is in realtime.. and, its easy.. there is a barrier for *all* things
<holstein> i mean, we could meet, and argue doing meetings via something like skype, or google hangouts.. but, the upstream ubuntu community provides a room for meetings in irc, that logs the meetings, etc
<holstein> its just easy for us to take advantage of that
<holstein> its easier than crowd-sourcing all the aspects, and, having one person dictate the terms.. we literally vote on everything.. copy paste the xubuntu setup to a wiki page agenda.. everything is a bullet point
<holstein> we show up, and vote.. in the ubuntu community team meeting channel.. everyone gets say-so.. and can add points to the agenda.. and, the agenda is up, and anyone can add a point to it
<cub> anyone installed 1510 to actual harddrive yet? I only have one laptop and is a bit nervous as to break the boot or grub
<holstein> any community member can vote.. we could say, "in order to vote, please sign the COC,.. etc
<zequence> cub: I have
<cub> great, I'll set it up then
<cub> Sadly, I only find myself with some time today since my daughter is home with a fever. She's quite happy to hang around in the sofa with a book or ipad then
<holstein> what happens here, in realtime, that doenst happen on the list is, realtime collaboration.. and voting.. "next point of order, team lead term.. option 1, 2 years, option 2, 6 months.. !vote"
<holstein> thats what we cant do ^.. on the email, it just bounces around, and someone dictates a decision
<holstein> zequence: i feel, you are just saying, you dont want to have a meeting like the other communities do.. *all* of the other communities, and teams.. why?
<holstein> zequence: why are you opposed to having a normal meeting time? and terms that all community members vote on? 
<holstein> it would be like that, similarly, in the future.. "next point - publication menu section discussion".. then, voting on things, and getting things done
<holstein> the channel that is provided for us to use logging the decisions, and, the tasks.. etc
<cub> Jono Bacon favour Google Hangout or Freenode for meetings, but sure that's only one suggestion
<cub> holstein, one of the difficulties with an online meeting is the time schedule to allow for as many as possible to participate
<holstein> cub: sure.. and *all* other teams deal with that
<cub> other than that, I also prefer "live" meetings for some thigns
<holstein> what do you do? vote on the meeting times.. absentee voting?
<holstein> read the official logs
<holstein> *nothing* cant be addressed..
<cub> I think Xubuntu have a log for absentee voting
<holstein> yup ^
<holstein> we just literallly copy paste what xubuntu has, and have a meeting to vote on all of those as bullet points
<cub> though that also means you vote in advance and can't take into account stuff that might come up in the discussion
<holstein> allowing folks to add whatever they want to it.. or, options..
<zequence> holstein: While you say all this, I am preparing a wiki page of what is being discussed on the mail list. 
<holstein> theres no perfect solution.. but, if we have a meeting, and you show up, you vote, and get say-so..
<cub> How about you for nomination holstein ? You've been around for a long time
<zequence> holstein: No one is dictating anything.
<holstein> zequence: lol
<holstein> zequence: the team lead position its self has been dictated for literally 6 years, or, as long as ive been here
<holstein> zequence: we have no community meetings.. or, community outlet for input.. im not stating anything but facts
<cub> well there isn't much of a community
<zequence> that's total bullshit
<holstein> folks have nothing to join, here.. its just not the same as the other communities.. and, i for one, would just like to try implementing
<holstein> zequence: its not..
<holstein> zequence: it was dicated to me.. and the rest of the community.. and, thats fine
<holstein> im not asking for changes retroactively.. or oppologies.. just, that we try and emulate the other teams, going forward
<holstein> try having meetings.., letting folks vote, and accept tasks..
<zequence> holstein: Guess how many active contributors we had last autumn, actually doing something?
<holstein> zequence: sure, and why?
<zequence> holstein: Just to make a point
<zequence> Give me a number
<holstein> zequence: what team are they joining?.. you know?
<holstein> i think we can argue chicken or egg there.. but, we can both agree, we have a small team
<zequence> 1
<cub> 2?
<holstein> im only proposing emulating the larger teams.. 
<holstein> there is infrastructure in place to help us.. 
<zequence> For this cycle, we have had a lot more interest, but how many have actually done anything else but discuss?
<holstein> zequence: what do they do?
<holstein> zequence: you cant show a bullet point, or a vote.. etc.. i mean, are we aruging to *not* emulate al the other teams?
<holstein> the ones that are thriving? and growing?
<zequence> holstein: What you want is for you to be able to attend meetings and vote for stuff that 1 or 2 other people will have to do
<zequence> Are you seeing my point yet?
<holstein> zequence: i didnt say that
<holstein> the attendees can accept tasks, or, someone can ask for help from upstream, or, on the mailing list.. etc
<holstein> i mean, how is this a negative thing? having a team meeting?
<holstein> i dont think it would hurt to try having simply monthly meetings.. all things can be voted on.. the meeting time, for example.. if someone wanted to move it
<holstein> its not up to 1 or 2 people to do everything, and shouldnt be.. and, thats something that the meetings would facilitate a conversation about
<zequence> I'll agree to that the day there are more than 2 active developers
<holstein> zequence: yes, but, again, thats *you* dictating
<zequence> Well, there are three now, tbh. But, still, a few more than now
<zequence> holstein: You are not a developer
<holstein> zequence: so
<zequence> holstein: You are just here chatting
<zequence> What is it that you want us to do?
<holstein> im a community member.. offering to assist with infrastructure, and community structure..
<cub> well holstein is pitching a good part in the support 
<holstein> zequence: i am only proposing we try and emulate a team that i would think we can both agree could make for attracting more members
<holstein> the xubuntu team
<holstein> we literally just copy paste, and vote on the points.. then, we get that as a frame work, but, we have plenty of time for each of the interested parties to review and edit.. and add voting points
<zequence> The problem is not about how we communicate. There's more than enough communication going on here
<holstein> im not trying to be a developer.. nor, do i intend to be one.. but, that doesnt make my voice less important.. and *that* is why im proposing we are not growing a community
<zequence> The problem is in getting people to do some actual work
<holstein> zequence: sure.. and, i can agree with that
<holstein> zequence: so, we have a meeting, where folks are clearly accepting tasks.. or, accepting the task of asking for help doing something
<holstein> just a factual thing that we can point to "you said you would get testers together for the lowlatency kernel for the 16.04 cycle, how is that going?"
<holstein> and, we check in.. im propsing simply monthly to start..
<holstein> since, i konw we are all busy..
<zequence> I'm just now calling out for Beta testers. And I will do that in all our channels, website, etc. Usually, it's me and someone from Xubuntu testing our ISOs
<zequence> Don't think a lack of meetings is causing that
<holstein> zequence: sure.. and i know, i appreciate that. but, what if we had a team? where, you can just ask someone else to do that? and put that as a bullet point? 
<holstein> *anyone* can do that..
<holstein> you dont need to be emailing.. and, you dont ask for help with it..
<holstein> you dont have to be a developer to edit wikis and send emails.. etc.. thats something that i think one of the newer contributors would be excited about taking on
<zequence> If you want to fix a hole in a tire, you must first have a tire.
<holstein> zequence: lol
<holstein> we *have* a tire..
<holstein> anyways, i wont send anything to the list til we are in agreement.. as a courtesy
<holstein> zequence: i would not mind scheduling time to discuss with you, in particular, and hash this out..
<holstein> folks are here, and they are ready for tasks.. they are not being given them..
<zequence> That's simply not true
<holstein> we happen to have had about 5 strong in this channel over the past few days.. and, thats really all it would take
<holstein> zequence: if its not, then, its not.. and no one will come.. and who cares? right?!
<holstein> zequence: what is the problem with trying to emulate the xubuntu team?
<zequence> I mean, people have already committeds to all sorts of tasks
<holstein> right,a nd in the meeting, we can say, "hey, hows that going? do you need help?"
<holstein> rather than, 6, 8 months later, kind of half remembering a conversation somewhere.. or whatever
<holstein> we have upstream support.. we have lots of help with the xubuntu team, who, im sure would help someone with whatever we would need help with
<holstein> im not asking to take anything over. or, away from anyone.. im only asking for open-ness, and, regular meetings. and democratic voting.. and delegation.. etc
<holstein> if you want to keep things as they are, and just dictate the team lead to everyone, in the background, and, keep things going as they are, we can surely discuss that..
<zequence> I have never said anything else than that we should have a vote
<zequence> And, I never discuss anything behind any doors
<zequence> ..if it involves the whole team, that is.
<holstein> *everything* needs to involve the whole team
<zequence> It's all very, very open holstein 
<zequence> It's like this: you want to do something, you do it, unless someone objects, and then we have a discussion.
<holstein> zequence: again, all i can say is, it hasnt been, and there are no meetings for me to attend to vote in.. me, or new members..
<zequence> holstein: Just read the damn mail list, and the wiki for information
<zequence> It's all there
<holstein> im not making things up.. the team lead position has not been voted on, factually, for years.. 
<zequence> I know that, but that is some time ago. And, Scott was not in a position to make a vote happen when he left.
<zequence> I was barely able to take over. It was pretty difficult to get things done then
<holstein> its not scotts position to do so
<zequence> I didn't want to become lead, even
<holstein> if its an open community, then, its open.. and it wasnt
<zequence> But, there was no other way
<holstein> im *glad* you are lead. and think you have done a great job.. im only talking about, the future.. and facts about the past
<holstein> a vote would have been the other way..
<zequence> There will be a vote, if candidates can be produced.
<holstein> we dont even need "candidates".. even if its just OvenWerks ..which is fine.. we *still* vote
<holstein> we still have say so, and welcome him, and define the terms.. etc..
<zequence> holstein: If you like, we can have meetings over the next cycle, which will be my last. You get to do all the work in preparing for them, but I will at least need to look over the structure and make sure it's in line with how we do things
<holstein> zequence: i actually wasnt going to offer to blanketly do "all the work for it", but, i was also going to offer to assist someone else in doing it..
<zequence> Oh, then who?
<zequence> Me?
<holstein> zequence: if i need to, i can.. and, i will make sure you and i are in agreement before i send anything to the list
<holstein> zequence: *you* are the one telling me work to do ;) not me telling you
<zequence> So far, I think only you feel really strong about it, and maybe cub is leaning your way. So, there's the two of you
<zequence> But, perhaps there are more who would be willing on the mail list
<holstein> zequence: to be clear, im not asking that you do any preperation work
<zequence> Some people come and go.
<holstein> i wont send anything surprising that we dont dicuss to the list.. but, think this over, and you can let me know, before i formulate the mail
<zequence> You can write whatever you like on the mail list. It's not up to me, you know
<holstein> that, we would basically have a meeting, in the official meeting channel.. start a wiki agenda for it, copy past the xubuntu team info, and allow folks to add what they want to it, for voting bullet points..
<cub> I support having meetings. But I also understand the point that if only 1 or 2 show up it's not worth the administration around it
<holstein> zequence: yes. but, im not interested in crowd-sourcing it there.. for discussion.. id like to have the date worked out, and the agenda up, and folks can edit as they want, prior to meeting, or, ask for the time to be moved, etc..
<cub> like myself, I could organise meetings but then something comes up concerning work or family and I will have to bail out. That's even worse than not having meetings
<holstein> but, even if its just 2 in the meeting, in the future, and that one person can ask for help with something, thats helpful..
<holstein> if the administration is too much, we discuss..
<holstein> the channel does most of the work, for the post meeting.. AFAIK.. these days, that helps out a lot
<cub> yes when you have learned the irc meeting bot the notes are done when the meeting's done
<holstein> we used to have to do it manually :/
<cub> but someone need to learn (and remember how to) and then run it every time
<zequence> Here's the page for how to vote for a project lead https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/ProjectLeadVote
<holstein> that was some crazy overhead.. for a team that didnt do much..
<holstein> anyways, im back to work here.. its been a real pressure talking with you..
<holstein> i mean, pleasure ;)
<zequence> I'm mergine the "core" and "developer" sections in the wiki later. Everything that a Ubuntu Studio developer needs to know will be in the "developer" section
<cub> haha
<cub> perhaps both, holstein 
<cub> The hard part is to attract more people to contribute. It's a quite narrow field since you need to be interested in open source and sort computers and then music/audio/graphics/video.
<cub> It's not like Xubuntu whose targets are everyone
<zequence> I think I will be ready with all the stuff that I felt lacked when I started out, just by the time I decide not to do it anymore
<zequence> The wiki will be awesome when its finished
<zequence> People just need to read it
<cub> zequence, really? That is nice though
<zequence> You should have seen the wiki when I started.
<zequence> There was no structure whatsoever. Not for many years
<cub> time to put the kid to bed ...
<zequence> cub: Sweet dreams to her
<zequence> Could be some folks are deterred from doing this, since they feel they don't have good enough experience of multimedia production
<zequence> ..but would otherwise be really good at all of the other stuff, like packaging, and bug fixing
<cub> I think many think you need to be a savvy computer geek, excellent coder, know several programming languages, to be able to contribute. There's a hurdle to get over to reach people and make it clear to them that a team need many different skills
<cub> It took me a while to get over, even though it's there on the web page you still think "well I'm not a coder so I'm to no use"
<holstein> cub: and, i think thats a conversation i would like to have, for sure
<holstein> like, are we relevant as a distro? do we need to just make it a "plugin" for any other flavor? i know mate is doing that.. an ubuntu-mate audio editing version, for example
<holstein> do we need code contributors?
<holstein> we are not even allowed to contribute much into the repos.. 
<holstein> and, thats something else that we could talk about.. going "unofficial" and maintaining a PPA.. basically something like what kxstudio is doing.. 
<holstein> these are the kinds of things we could entertain before anyone starts working on 16.04.. i know cory had come in, and suggested that, which, i actually thought was worth entertaining. but, it was about 5 weeks before the release of one of the versions.. prolly 12.04
<cub> I think being an official distro is an advantage, I'm always a bit skeptic about PPAs myself. But it all comes down to having enough people to spin it around
<zequence> holstein: I don't think you have a very good understanding of the whole development process, and that is one of the problems I have with a lot of your opinions
<zequence> It's not true that we don't have access. Everyone in this world has access to all sources.
<cub> there's already the plan or idea of being WM agnostic
<zequence> I have upload rights to all Ubuntu Studio packages. Also to all Debian multimedia package sources
<holstein> zequence: sure, and why?
<holstein> you are  not a MOTU?
<zequence> What do you mean why?
<holstein> is it just because, we dont have the team in place? or, is it just access to configs? etc
<zequence> No, as I said, I have upload rights to all of the Ubuntu Studio packages
<holstein> i mean, i dont want just *anyone* uploading into ubuntu.. there are checks in place, for a reason
<zequence> At any time, I can upload a new version of any of our packages
<holstein> and, if we dont have access to build, and add packages, we dont really need developers
<holstein> we certainly dont need a lot of them
<holstein> i think, i deally, one of us would be a MOTU, or, even ideally, a paid developer, with our specific interests in mind
<cub> with developers we could do much more though
<holstein> having a paid developer is quite unlikely, since, even the KDE paid dev is not paid anymore.. and, AFAIK, that was the last of the flavors that had paid development
<holstein> but, i dont think we are missing developers.. and, if we get contributors, some of them will likely either be developers, or, interested in development
<cub> but otherwise it's more or less just puzzling together what apps to include
<holstein> or, they are just musicians, and can ask *others* for assistance, with the specific needs.. like, a liason with debian, or whatever
<holstein> it doesnt require coding experience to talk about packages in debian that we get
<holstein> zequence: i dont have *any* idea about development, and dont want to
<holstein> zequence: im not interested in doing development, and thats not a requiment of being a contributor to the community here.. and i dont think we need to give that impression, or, that its really something we specifically lack
<holstein> since, we are not really given the control of the development
<holstein> now, as im saying, and generally asking, for discussion, we *could* break off, and do something else, where, we would have more control, and need for developers..
<zequence> We ARE IN CONTROL OF DEVELOPMENT
<holstein> zequence: please, no caps
<holstein> zequence: no caps, no cussing.. less attacking vibe towards me, please.. generally
<zequence> We have full control of everything
<holstein> im not attacking you. im simply suggesting, that, we really dont have need for developers.. we cant develop an app, and just drop it, willy nilly, in the repos
<holstein> if we can, then, why are we not adding falks stuff? the stuff that is being requested that we have? and that folks leave ubuntustudio for kxstudio over?
<zequence> As long as we comply with policies, we are able to do what we want and need to do
<cub> we could, ubuntustudio-controls is something like that, no?
<zequence> Sure, but the best way is to do it in Debian, which has already been under way for many years
<zequence> Don't ask me why it hasn't happened yet
<holstein> sure. but, who do we ask? and if we have control, we dont have to
<holstein> we just stick them in.. lots of folks want them
<cub> that's something I have been toying with for a while, why don't we do Debian Studio
<zequence> anyone can package falktx packages and put them in either UBuntu or Debian repos
<zequence> There's nothing stopping them
<cub> but since Jessie is the first Debian that actually worked right away on my laptop I haven't considered it more until now
<holstein> i think there is something stopping one of us from dropping them in the ubuntu repo
<zequence> holstein: There isnÃ¤t
<holstein> but, if there is not, then, i think we can simply ask falk to do it
<zequence> isn't*
<zequence> Like I said, you don't seem to know a whole lot about how packaging works
<holstein> ok.. so, we do that at the meeting, then, i'll ask falk to assist packing, since, he already does it, and we put them in
<holstein> zequence: i dont want to konw, friend..
<zequence> falktx doesn't want to package his stuff for Debian
<zequence> falktx doesn't want anything to do with either Debian or Ubuntu developers and their policices
<zequence> That's at least the impression I have got from him
<zequence> He doesn't like rules
<cub> If Falk was interested wouldn't he be involved already? I've got the impression he wants to do his own thing
<cub> exactly
<holstein> well, i'll actually ask him, if we actually have the rights to put them in
<zequence> holstein: Anyone can put anything in, as long as it complies with policies
<zequence> holstein: That's what free software is all about
<zequence> If you don't have upload rights, you need a sponsor. That's all
<holstein> sure.. a motu sponsor, correct? the person that *actually* puts the stuff in..
<holstein> i get that.. and, thats fine.. but, all i want to do is constructively talk about getting some of the things that i think we can all agree, folks move away from ubuntustudio to get
<zequence> But, any package that has a free license should go into Debian. From there it will automatically be imported into Ubuntu
<zequence> Folks have strange ideas, and often thanks to people with strange opinions
<holstein> or, we can just not do ubuntustudio,a nd assist falk, or make our own PPA's.. if we cant do pro audio within the confines of the policies, which, im not saying we cant, just that, if thats true, we can just stop trying
<zequence> Ironically, a lot of people hostile to Ubuntu are people with little or no experience with it
<zequence> holstein: I really urge you to put your thoughts down and write an email instead
<holstein> well, its fashionable to not like ubuntu..  and, thats something larger than ubuntustudio.. but, when folks go to #ardour, for example, and the major piece of advice is "whatever you do, dont use ubuntustudio", i would like to think about why
<zequence> to the mail list, that is
<holstein> zequence: ? do you not understand that it would take weeks to have this kind of back and forth?
<zequence> There are a lot of things that you are missing about how things really are, and why they are as they are
<zequence> It would be good for you to get those things straightened out
<holstein> zequence: sure
<zequence> I gotta do some family time now. I'll be back tomorrow
<cub> g'nite zequence 
<holstein> cool.. email sent.. reply as you wish..
<zequence> holstein: That looked more like trolling, but I
<zequence> but I'll answer it anyway
<zequence> holstein: Please make sure to read it, and read it well
<zequence> You've been around here for I don't know how many years. If you want to discuss development, please do us the courtesy to at least find out how it works
<holstein> zequence: have i ever *not* done that?
<holstein> zequence: i will read it, and please, no caps, cussing, or ordering me, or anyone to do things.. thanks
<holstein> zequence: i enjoy your perspective, but, thats still not really what i was even talking about, which, i will repond to, after i read
<holstein> what im getting at is, we dont really need code contributors.. thats all
<zequence> How do you know that?
<holstein> but, if some come along *great*. but, in the mean time, if we can make it seem as though *anyone* is welcome, since, they are..
<zequence> You know that both me and Len are code contributors, right?
<zequence> And, in a way, all packages have code in them.
<holstein> i mean, if you want to produce a crop of code contributors, thats great.. but, as cub and i were discussing, it may just be musicians that are interested
<holstein> and, im not saying you are *not* contributing code.. just that, if we dont atract code contributors, but, just folks to help wtih emails, and with documentation, etc.. that would be helpful
<zequence> Do you want to help with PR?
<zequence> Cause, I have asked you that before, you know.
<holstein> sure, and thats something i can do, and actually do
<zequence> That would mean getting us interviews, making posts on social channels, getting people to read about us, and getting them insterested
<holstein> right.. and you see me doing that
<holstein> developing interest.. and helping folks with installs, converting.. etc..
<holstein> but, im not trying to have a "who does more good" talk. i know, i dont do the same level of heavy lifting that you do, and thats fine
<holstein> i appreciate all the code contributing folks that help with what makes up our distro
<zequence> I'm not talking user support. I'm talking about being responsible of all our social channels, the website, and getting articles for us on different places
<zequence> Being active with PR, so that people can read about us
<zequence> Also, always have that small sentence somewhere, that we are looking for people to help us out
<zequence> I don't have time for that, but I do make posts about it sometimes
<holstein> sure, thats soemthing i can do
<zequence> And, usually a few people respond
<holstein> thats something i try and do constantly. in person.. irc, FB. where ever i feel it makes sense
<holstein> i used to bother jono, personally, to try and get him to use US..
<zequence> So, please do. Start planning the whole thing. There's a wiki section for PR & Support. Consider it yours
<holstein> zequence: i wont
<zequence> Do whatever you like. 
<zequence> Why not?
<holstein> zequence: i will, though, bring it up and the meeting, and see if others are ok with me doing so
<holstein> otherwise, i will do what i have been doing, and take a look at the wiki
<zequence> What do you mean, see if others are ok with you helping us out with PR?
<holstein> and, maybe, we can get your input, and others input on what that looks like
<holstein> zequence: well, i do PR now
<holstein> but, you are saying, you want it a certain way, and that i can "take it over" somehow
<zequence> There's no one who has time for that holstein 
<zequence> This is what I'm talking about
<zequence> Either you do something, or you don't. It's up to you
<holstein> zequence: righth, and i *alreayd* do
<holstein> and you say, its not quite what you are talking about
<holstein> but, again, im not saying no.. im just saying, we can define that roll, and look at how xubuntu and others do it, and what they do that works
<holstein> maybe, pull in  some of the same info.. i try and help with that FB page, when i have time.. articles used to be easier, when i was on the news team, but, i felt as though i was "Staging" news. just for us to have an article
<holstein> also, why are folks not wrting about US? i suppose i took a few steps back, and tried to think about why folks were *not* using the product..
<holstein> but, that is the kind of thing that users like me can do, and im not saying no.. and i'll answer and read your email, and look at your wiki page, etc..
<zequence> holstein: This is the PR sections https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/PublicRelationsDocumentation
<zequence> It's a mess. Why? Cause no one is taking charge of it
<zequence> And, why not you do that?
<zequence> Aside from development, there are only so much you can do. It's "Testing". There's a section about that too
<zequence> I mean, there's "Testing"
<zequence> PR & Support, though two different things, but kind of go in the same category
<zequence> Documentation, which anyone can do. Only developers can do dev docs, though
<zequence> And artwork, which you need to be an able artist for
<zequence> So, take your pick
<zequence> I've always thought of you as the PR guy
<zequence> holstein: If you want a bigger community. Meetings. Votes. The best place to start IMO is getting more people involved, and PR is the best weapon for that
<OvenWerks> Wow, long talk.
<OvenWerks> zequence: holstein: I think doing a distro from the repos is worth while. Running a PPA is already there, in ubuntu, redhat, debian, arch. We don't need to do it again.
<OvenWerks> I am getting less excited about something that can be added to any flavour too as I think we have found the sweet spot with xfce. But I am still willing to work in that direction.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2015-08-21
<holstein> OvenWerks: seems like, it would be duplication, right?
<holstein> i agree with that.. that, doing a PPA is already being done.. but, if we are always going to be seen as, not as good as kxstudio, or avlinux, then, do we need to, or can we address that?
<holstein> i think, we always have the ubuntu brand, and repos in our corner, so to speak..
<holstein> OvenWerks: what do you, personally, think about an LTS only iso?
<holstein> personally, i consider stalking the #ardour channel, and addressing anti-ubuntustudio comments to be PR
<OvenWerks> holstein: I actually think with enough people either way can work. Make the in between releases good enough for production or keep the LTS up to date.
<holstein> OvenWerks: personally, i dont think it would take that much more help..
<OvenWerks> kx is based on LTS and the audio apps are built against them
<OvenWerks> Falk watches LAA and some of the faster moving IRC channels and updtaes the apps as soon as new versions are out
<OvenWerks> *updates even
<holstein> yup.. but would that be something we would even want to do?
<holstein> seems like, we could break something, pretty quick, or, end up needing to fix other packages, or deps.. but, maybe its easier than that, and just a lack of man power
<OvenWerks> The best we could do would be to see about getting tings from debian to the LTS via backports.
<holstein> i know, backporting should be relatively easy.. im just not sure that i will even be able to address that, at least, anytime in the near future..
<OvenWerks> Ardour4.2 just works on anything because it ships with extra libs. but I can build it on 14.04 with not much trouble too
<holstein> anyways, backporting doesnt seem like something that would take amazing coders to show up..
<OvenWerks> just time.
<holstein> seems like, we could just target a few key ones.. as well
<holstein> having the most recent ardour,.. although, step one, at #ardour is "if you have a problem, build ours from git, then we talk about support"...
<holstein> we cant compete with that, for sure.. and likely dont need to
<OvenWerks> #ardour will support the latest release as well.
<holstein> the latest, thats not our "repackaged" one.. AFAIK
<holstein> anyways, providing the latest stable release would be ideal.. do you think that would break anything?
<OvenWerks> our latest one in wiley is 4.0 (package name ardour3)  :P
<OvenWerks> in the lts it is the very last 3.5
<holstein> it would be nice to have that backport into the LTS
<holstein> since, its supported a bit more.. and all that
<holstein> but, again.. is anyone using it? 
<holstein> i mean, i do, but, i just get it from ardour..
<OvenWerks> All of my bug fixes are 4.1 and beyond  ;)
<micahg> if you need stuff backported, I can help with uploading, just follow the testing listed when creating the backports bug with requestbackport
<OvenWerks> micahg: Thankyou, I think ardour 4.0 is the last one we should BP. I will download the src and play with it. In 4.1 they add trim which shouldn't break anything, but it does change the session a bit.
<OvenWerks> 4.0 is a bugfix for 3.5 more than anything.
<zequence> bug 1487137
<ubottu> bug 1487137 in ubuntustudio-meta (Ubuntu) "ubuntustudio metapackages reference lv2fil, jack-rack, specimen, phat removed from Debian" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1487137
<zequence> OvenWerks: I'm thinking we should wait until 4.2
<zequence> Once it's packaged in Debian (hopefully very soon), we can request a sync to Wily, and then backport it
<zequence> We'll need to backport first to 15.04, then to 14.04
<cub> Good morning, I read up on the irc logs and want to pitch in on the PR and community bit
<cub> I have had a wish and thoughts on using the social channels more to grow the community and get the word out more. There are people who show up on Facebook etc but with more activity I think that would be beneficial
<cub> However, I was also holding back due to not being able to commit time or know how much or little I would be able to pitch in
<cub> but, perhaps even a small amount of PR, social activity is better than none. So if possible I could get access to the different channels and try to make use of them
<cub> it's easier for me to use small breaks of time to check up and communicate, than to wait for a larger amount of time and do like extensive testing.
<cub> What I can't really contribute nowadays is on the forums as I have not used the platform for audio or video work in quite some time, so my support skills are rusty at best.
<cub> anyways, let me know. Gotta go entertain my daughter. :D
<zequence> cub, it would make sense for more people to have access, yes. I'll look into that
<cub> I think we could push the interview zequence did and the article that was posted recently on the Ubuntu Studio channels. Maybe evaluate which social channels we should focus on and if different information should be targeted at different channels. G+ is considered more technical than Facebook. And how about Snapchat to snap the younger generations?
<cub> It's good with spread, but too many channels and it becomes too much to keep everything flowing and might water out the information
<zequence> Yes, I was intending to post the interview. And, it would be good for us to get more interviews with more team members
<cub> So rather have few with good and relevant postings
<zequence> I always post the same stuff on all of them
<zequence> I usually do the actual article on our website, and post the link on the different social channels
<cub> yeah makes sense
<cub> I noticed that the changes I made to the website branch is not live yet?
<cub> Anyone heard from madeinkobaya recently?
<zequence> Ah, I just haven't asked to have it uploaded
<zequence> I was thinking we should revamp the site for the release of the next LTS. I'll see how much time I will have for that
<zequence> Been some time since I heard from madein
<cub> Ok, I was thinking of the very light grey comments and links
<zequence> I'll contact him soon and ask if he's willing to do some stuff for X
<cub> It would be nice with some updates graphically
<zequence> It's pizza day today, btw
<zequence> Every other friday in this family :)
<cub> haha I'm doing iTrim and do one free meal day a week which is tomorrow
<cub> so mabye pizza then
<zequence> I try to run, but my knee has been bothering me last 2 1/2 years.
<zequence> I run maybe twice a week now. Get the pump pumping
<cub> bummer, I damaged my knee last year just before Stockholm Marathon, haven't run much since then
<zequence> I might not be very active during the weekend. I can spend the whole weekdays for Ubuntu Studio now, so that is basically my day time job currently
<cub> cool
<cub> well, good for ubuntu studio but maybe not that great for you=
<cub> zequence, did you see the Xubuntu tracker? http://tracker.xubuntu.org/
<zequence> As long as I can get whatever I want to get done within a couple of months. That's what I'm aiming for. Max three.
<zequence> Cool
<cub> I don't know if they pull that from blueprints, Trello or otherwise
<cub> but if/when there start to be many things to do it could be useful
<zequence> It looks very useful
<zequence> The calendar is a nice addition. I have set up one for us, but haven't really maintained it
<zequence> The calendar is not showing for me though
<zequence> Ah, I had a blocker on
<zequence> It's actually one of the most useful parts, I think. Especially if all people involved sync to it and have alarms and what else to make sure they are available for different stuff
<cub> That would be good
<cub> I don't see a calendar either?
<zequence> Are you using some sort of cookie blocker?
<cub> is it on the xubuntu tracker page?
<cub> I shouldn't have anything but Adblocker
<zequence> http://tracker.xubuntu.org/#tab-calendar
<zequence> google calendar
<cub> hmm nope
<cub> are you using chromium or other browser?
<zequence> maybe google is blocking you?
<zequence> I always use FF
<zequence> I best tend to weekend matters. Cheerio
<cub> see ya
<cub> hmm right, I get two more tabs in FF than in Chromium.
<micahg> zequence: since 14.10 is now EOL, you can skip backporting through 15.04 since there's not a supported upgrade path from 14.04 to 15.04 anymore
#ubuntustudio-devel 2015-08-22
<zequence> micahg: Oh
<zequence> Cool
<sakrecoer> hey
<sakrecoer> do ubuntu ever organise meetings in physical realm?
<sakrecoer> there is this http://ubuntu.meetup.com/ thing... but i can't figure out to what extend it is pushed by users on a local level..
<sakrecoer> or wether its international events?
<zequence> sakrecoer_Z: I haven't seen that before
<zequence> DebConf videos http://meetings-archive.debian.net/pub/debian-meetings/2015/debconf15/
#ubuntustudio-devel 2015-08-23
<zequence> cub: hi
<cub> hello zequence 
<cub> I took some advantage of the twitter account just now. A few good tweets to retweet.
<cub> I'm starting to draft some kind of plan for PR, what to use when and so on
<zequence> Someone at Fox News uses Ubuntu Studio?
<zequence> Ah, no. I misread
<zequence> cub: Sounds good.
<cub> hehe yeah he was critizings Fox News view on Win10 I think
<zequence> Ah, yes
#ubuntustudio-devel 2016-08-22
<sakrecoer> OvenWerks: interesting! i guess the box vonverts the DVI to usb, hence doind the drivers jobb...
<sakrecoer> *converts
<flocculant> sakrecoer: I'll try and be about a bit for you this week - we're not having anything to do with the b1 milestone so have a bit of time :)
<flocculant> work now though :)
<sakrecoer> flocculant: very kind of you, highly appreciated! :)
<flocculant> cya later :)
<sakrecoer> :) cya o/
<flocculant> try and watch -release - I just pinged infinity and laney re your iso 
<geirdal> sakrecoer,  are we still going to do the gallery idea? I have at least 10 images that I can donate
<sakrecoer> yeah, i think so :) not sure we have the appropriate format yet, but it would sure be a good thing to have.
<geirdal> is autumna  working in it?
<sakrecoer> right now she is on holliday, never the less, feel free to suggest anything in that regard :)
<geirdal> she wanted to do this from scratch, we could start this by donate our work. I think that could work and then call for peoples art when website is up
<geirdal> we need sound, I can give my art and we need video
<geirdal> you had some sounds sakrecoer 
<sakrecoer> i do.. i'm not too sure i want to be the first adding sounds... i get enough frontrow as it is hehe.. but we should be on the look out for material. probably do an anouncement/campaign..
<sakrecoer> i know for sure mike holstein has got sweet music made in ubuntustudio, maybe zequence? would be a good tribute to feature the founders and past contributors maybe? :)
<geirdal> yes
<geirdal> I still think its a good idea to use for video Blenders open movie projects for inspiration
<sakrecoer> definitly :)
<geirdal> there is a wallpaper contest, we could show some of that
<flocculant> sakrecoer: fyi, I see you said studio doesn't install in -release, I've successfully done so on kvm this morning
<sakrecoer> flocculant: hm.. with the daily, or the one from 18th in the tracker?
<flocculant> one from the tracker, it's your only working iso :)
<sakrecoer> i tried hardware install on both my machines with the daily and it failed...
<flocculant> not sure who you need to talk to about packages and dependencies 
<sakrecoer> flocculant: this one http://iso.qa.ubuntu.com/qatracker/milestones/360/builds/129062/downloads?
<sakrecoer> because i tried this one: http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/ubuntustudio/dvd/current/
<flocculant> mmm if you look at http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-archive/cd-build-logs/xubuntu/yakkety/daily-live-20160822.log
<flocculant> at the bottom you can see it thinks it's purged old images and successfully added at 02:23 this morning
<flocculant> I think someone on -release needs to whack the tracker a bit 
<flocculant> and yea that one 
<sakrecoer> ok... thank you!
<flocculant> one on the 19th likely had no networking nor desktop - that would have been smack bang in the middle of some systemd problems iirc
<sakrecoer> ok.. yeah, bothe DE and networking were bananas in the live session.
<flocculant> yup
<flocculant> you should find that when you have a real iso on the tracker those will be fixed - they are for us
<sakrecoer> oh wait... that log is for xubuntu..
<flocculant> oh whoops :p
<flocculant> just change xubuntu to ubuntustudio then :)
<sakrecoer> yeah... http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-archive/cd-build-logs/ubuntustudio/yakkety/
<flocculant> I did wonder why you were suddenly building at the same time as us lol 
<sakrecoer> i mean... http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-archive/cd-build-logs/ubuntustudio/yakkety/dvd-20160821.log
<sakrecoer> so.. "LiveBuildsFailed: No live filesystem builds succeeded."
<flocculant> aah yes 963 bytes - that'll be a fail build then :D
<flocculant> sorry for getting your hopes up ...
<sakrecoer> but hey, at least got a chance to taste embarassment in -release whcih is good because my skin gets harder :D
<sakrecoer> i might sound cynical, but i'm super greatfull for your tip flocculant :)
<flocculant> you can see more about 'what' failed at https://launchpadlibrarian.net/280197910/buildlog_ubuntu_yakkety_i386_ubuntustudio_BUILDING.txt.gz
<sakrecoer> yeah tahnks! that is what was emailed .. good to know where to find those!
<flocculant> https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-cdimage/+livefs/ubuntu/yakkety/ubuntustudio
<flocculant> anyway - afaik Laney is running b1 from the canonical side if flavour people help - so he's likely the one to talk to
<flocculant> meantime - off out again now :)
<sakrecoer> ok! ryl! o/
<sakrecoer> thank you flocculant :)
<geirdal> sakrecoer, would like to see the gallery in a magazine format hybrid gallery
<sakrecoer> and how does such a format look?
<sakrecoer> geirdal ^
<geirdal> can make a mockup
<sakrecoer> sure.. :) keep in mind it has to work with wordpress
<geirdal> ok
<zequence> New ardour in debian
<zequence> Now would be a good time to do a request-sync. I can't do it atm. Will have to be somewhere soon.
<zequence> I'll notify the mail list
<OvenWerks> zequence: is that 5.0.5?
<sakrecoer> i'm looking at this, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SyncRequestProcess but i don't realy know how to "ensure the Ubuntu changes have been merged"..
<OvenWerks> sakrecoer: I am not worried if this is merged or not. I would assume (could be wrong) that this is the 5.0.5 release. So far as I know this release does not add or fix anything in Ardour itself but rather something that allows the Ardour.org packages to build correctly.
<OvenWerks> So if Ardour 5.0 bulds correctly, and installs/runs ok we may not gain anything anyway.
<sakrecoer> OvenWerks: :) i guess i was hoping to read it was super easy, and that i could easily discharge some work payload..
<OvenWerks> 5.1 would be worthwhile
<OvenWerks> But it is not here yet
<sakrecoer> :)
 * OvenWerks pushes yet another bit for the Ardour OSC setup GUI...
<sakrecoer> :/ iso failed 20 minutes ago...
<sakrecoer> same error, with gnupg..
<sakrecoer> and kactivitymanagerd
<OvenWerks> Ya I see that. Has anyone dropped a bug on that package?
<sakrecoer> i poked the release team about it, they were looking..
<sakrecoer> but i don't know... are we the only one to distribute those?
<OvenWerks> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/gnupg/+bug/1615039
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1615039 in gnupg2 (Ubuntu) "[FFe] /usr/bin/gnupg --version should be 2.1" [Undecided,New]
<OvenWerks> part of this maybe?
<sakrecoer> maybe.. apw said "have renamed gnupg to gnupg1 in debian, which will wreak havoc with our delta"
<OvenWerks> there is a gnupg2 as well.
<sakrecoer> "looks a little like they- have renamed" etc..
<sakrecoer> < xnox> apw, yeah, and we need to merge new gpg2 to take that.
<sakrecoer> the mysteries of the universe in my head: why is it only breaking ours? :D
<OvenWerks> Well, initramfs-tools-ubuntu-core needs it which may mean nobody is building.
<flocculant> OvenWerks: we're building fine
<OvenWerks> Maybe we depend on an older version of one of it's depends
<OvenWerks> flocculant: just got two emails that says different
<flocculant> OvenWerks: you said 'may mean nobody is building' and in this context from me, we is xubuntu :p
<OvenWerks> Ah :)
<sakrecoer> http://iso.qa.ubuntu.com/qatracker/milestones/360/builds
<sakrecoer> looks like most flavours had a successfull build today
<OvenWerks> so we should be looking at the depend that is failing and seeing what we have that requires it.
<flocculant> sakrecoer: except kubuntu - who'll be wanting the other one you're failing to build with at least
<OvenWerks> sakrecoer: can you paste the line from the failure? I seem to have gotten rid of it already :P
<sakrecoer> you mean this: The following packages have unmet dependencies:  gnupg1 : Breaks: gnupg (< 1.4.20-6+exp1) but 1.4.20-6ubuntu1 is to be installed, kactivitymanagerd : Breaks: kactivities (< 5.20~) but 5.18.0-0ubuntu1 is to be installed
<sakrecoer> OvenWerks ^
<OvenWerks> yes
<sakrecoer> flocculant: :)
<sakrecoer> well.. not that it makes me happy, but its good to know we are not alone lol
<OvenWerks> it appears we have something that says it requires gnupg1
<OvenWerks> I am not even sure what we have that requires gnupg
<OvenWerks> we do not ask for it directly
<sakrecoer> how can we find out?
<OvenWerks> sakrecoer: I do not know how to trace what gnupg is a dep of that we have.
<OvenWerks>  We could install a xubuntu ISO and then add our metas to till it chokes.
<OvenWerks> But I would bet someone with more packaging/apt-get experience has a command that would trace things back.
<sakrecoer> apt-cache rdepends gnupg showed me snapd among a big bunch of others..
<sakrecoer> althoug admitdely, i have installed a hole bunch of things on this machine..
<sakrecoer> thigns that mught be using it.
<OvenWerks> sakrecoer: the things is, it is the one thing on there that is looking for gnupg1
<OvenWerks> (or something that is inside it)
<sakrecoer> OvenWerks: ? the one thing? in where?
<OvenWerks> a depend that is looking for gnupg or even gnupg 1.4.20 will not fail. there is something that wants 1.4.20-6+exp1 which comes in gnupg in debian these days.
<OvenWerks> What do we have that is a new version since 16.04?
<OvenWerks> what are the packages we just added in our meta update?
<sakrecoer> OvenWerks: this item list: https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/ubuntustudio-y-development
<sakrecoer> as far as i know,...
<sakrecoer> OvenWerks: kryten gave me this link the other day: https://code.launchpad.net/~ubuntustudio-dev should list the lastest changes
<sakrecoer> OvenWerks: maybe this one is better: https://code.launchpad.net/~ubuntustudio-dev/ubuntu-seeds/ubuntustudio.yakkety
<OvenWerks> sakrecoer: I am going through the commits
<OvenWerks> Ya that
<sakrecoer> easier to see what has happened in the seeds
<sakrecoer> thanks OvenWerks :)
<sakrecoer> maybe i should ask in -release?
<OvenWerks> I don't know
<flocculant> OvenWerks: you might make more sense of the discussion in -release about gnupg and kactivitymanagerd >https://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2016/08/22/%23ubuntu-release.html#t14:23 
<flocculant> seems that the 2 issues for studio are related
<OvenWerks> Ah, It just seemed to me that the last seed update came very close to the time we started having trouble.
<flocculant> you, edubuntu and kubuntu are the only people to use kmanagerd, (edubuntu doesn't show on tracker now)
<OvenWerks> so we should look for things that are kde based like kdenlive
<flocculant> I'd think so 
<flocculant> also look in ubuntustudio-audio, as that's where apt-cache show gnupg1 points
<OvenWerks> None of the late additions directly uses gnupg that I can see.
<flocculant> maybe so - but kubuntu have been all over the place this cycle so maybe something has gone on over there that's impacted you 
<OvenWerks> flocculant: really... ok. I don't have a 16.10 partition yet so hard to test.
<flocculant> OvenWerks: http://paste.ubuntu.com/23079393/
<OvenWerks> I would have thought graphics or video (even office) where we have known kde stuff
<flocculant> yea
<flocculant> understood - I'm just giving you what I see from apt 
<sakrecoer> yeah that is odd.. i can't imagin any of those audio packages would need gpg.. but what do i know...
<flocculant> but I also end up floundering a bit
<sakrecoer> would "recommends" pull it in?
<OvenWerks> kid3?
<sakrecoer> that would be new...
<OvenWerks> it doesn't ask for any kde libs though
<sakrecoer> kid3 needing it... woudl be new...
<flocculant> sakrecoer: doesn't need to need gpg - needs to need kmanagerd according to xnox - which should use gnupg onstead
<sakrecoer> its QT afaik
<sakrecoer> flocculant: ok...
<flocculant> I think that's right anyway lol
<flocculant> could be the blind leading the blind here ;)
<sakrecoer> lol :)
<sakrecoer> better than no one helping no one :p
<OvenWerks> I think I am back to DL and install xubuntu and adding metas...
<sakrecoer> flocculant: didn't the iso from he 18th install alright?
<OvenWerks> sakrecoer: we include all the recomends in the metas.
<sakrecoer> ubuntustudio, you told me you tried that one didn't you?
<flocculant> anyway - this is all magic to me - I'm only about to help when needed for beta1 :p
<flocculant> sakrecoer: yea the iso on the tracker installs fine
<flocculant> sakrecoer: I wonder if you try the one you have which failed - but don't tell it to install -audio 
<sakrecoer> OvenWerks: http://iso.qa.ubuntu.com/qatracker/milestones/360/builds/129062/downloads
<OvenWerks> What date is that one?
<flocculant> the time is now 2112 - seems like a good time to stop this and put 2112 on instead - night all :)
<flocculant> OvenWerks: 18th
<sakrecoer> OvenWerks: that on is from the 18th.
<sakrecoer> flocculant: worth trying...
<OvenWerks> mine says 19th
<sakrecoer> OvenWerks: i tried installing the 19th yesterday and it wouldn't install on 2 machines..
<OvenWerks> I wonder about curl
<flocculant> sakrecoer: what I find a bit bizarre is that I supposedly got 18th from tracker, zsync from your 19th iso made no changes
<sakrecoer> yeah, thats weird...
<flocculant> I can quikcly try installing that in vm without -audio 
<OvenWerks> krita takes kde runtime
<sakrecoer> it does, krita, kdenlive.. those are the ones i can think of...
<OvenWerks> and kde-helpcenter
<OvenWerks> kdenlive does not ask for kde runtime as happens.
<sakrecoer> hmm.. i'm confused now
<OvenWerks> krita pulls in a buch of calligra... makes one wonder we don't just include that.
<OvenWerks> *bunch
<OvenWerks> It looks like https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/gnupg/+bug/1615039 may be the fix of it though
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1615039 in gnupg2 (Ubuntu) "[FFe] /usr/bin/gnupg --version should be 2.1" [Undecided,New]
<flocculant> that'd be the one sakrecoer should point -release team at I would assume for when you've got no images to test beta against 
<sakrecoer> sorry guys, had to get emergency sandwich
<sakrecoer> flocculant, OvenWerks i poked in -release and linked to that bug...
<sakrecoer> not too confident on what to tell them.. let's see how they respond ..
<OvenWerks> "No ISO to test"?
<sakrecoer> < sakrecoer> hello, our iso still fails for same reason. we are having troubles finding what is using gpg1, we have no working image to look in... could this have something to do with it? https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/gnupg/+bug/1615039
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1615039 in gnupg2 (Ubuntu) "[FFe] /usr/bin/gnupg --version should be 2.1" [Undecided,New]
<sakrecoer> OvenWerks: what... do you mean? 
<sakrecoer> ah.. a suggestion of what to tell them?
<sakrecoer> "will work for ISO" :D
<sakrecoer> OvenWerks: < jbicha> sakrecoer: deken depends on python-gnupg which depends on gnupg1
<sakrecoer> https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/deken
<sakrecoer> jbicha added: 
<sakrecoer> < jbicha> sakrecoer: here, let me revert python-gnupg to 0.3.8-2  to see if that fixes things for this week
<OvenWerks> I wondered if it was one of those python things.
<sakrecoer> OvenWerks: he said he "found by digging through germinate"...
<sakrecoer> what is germinate?
<sakrecoer> OvenWerks: ok, i see its a tool
<sakrecoer> For the log, if anyone else wonders: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Germinate
<sakrecoer> i have to sign off... 
<sakrecoer> thanks for your help flocculant and OvenWerks ! :)
<sakrecoer> let's hope we have an ISO tomorrow. g'night o/
<sakrecoer> OvenWerks, flocculant, and everyone... i forgot to forward this
<sakrecoer> 23:33 #ubuntu-release: < jbicha> sakrecoer: done, so we'll just have to retry  the iso build tomorrow once germinate has  picked up the change
<flocculant> read it there :)
<sakrecoer> :)
<sakrecoer> it hit me before slumber, thought OvenWerks might want to know :)
<sakrecoer> bye now! o/
<flocculant> night :)
#ubuntustudio-devel 2016-08-23
<flocculant> sakrecoer: I've triggered a rebuild of your iso - apparently gnupg1 isn't showing, if that doesn't show signs of movement in an hour or so you'll need to find someone to sort out the tracker for you in -release
<sakrecoer> thank you flocculant ! \o/
<sakrecoer> it failed again..
<sakrecoer> kactivitymanagerd : Breaks: kactivities (< 5.20~) but 5.18.0-0ubuntu1 is to be installed
<sakrecoer> plasma framework and calligra (scribus?) seem to require it if under stand the germinate thing right.
<sakrecoer> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-archive/germinate-output/ubuntustudio.yakkety/all
<zequence> sakrecoer: plasma-framework is pulled in because of kactivities, while kactivitymanagerd is pulled in by plasma-framework
<zequence> sakrecoer: Check with the Kubuntu team. Perhaps they will know more
<zequence> They do the packaging of those packages, most probably.
<zequence> Logic (if mine is sound) dictates that they should be having a problem as well
<sakrecoer> < Laney> sakrecoer: libkactivities6 has a Recommends  on kactivities, which is a package that  kactivities-kf5 has dropped
<sakrecoer> zequence: that is what i was told in -release.. also just got suggested to reach out to kubuntu-dev
<zequence> ok
<zequence> ardour is already in the archive
<zequence> So, updating seeds and our meta
<sakrecoer> looks like its night time in kubuntu...
<sakrecoer> oh.. could be lunch too...
<zequence> Should be lots of Europeans in there. Think KDE was most popular in Germany, at least in the past
<sakrecoer> just got a response :) apparaently yofel need to look into it, and he will back this evening... 
<flocculant> I'll let simon guide you then - works for me :)
<flocculant> I can just smoketest if needed
<flocculant> which is useful as gnome asked for help from me via someone else ... 
<sakrecoer> thank you flocculant :) you are a peamond!
<sakrecoer> woo
<sakrecoer> i ment diamond
<sakrecoer> weird... my irssi shell get banans as soon as i type a non standard character...
<flocculant> :)
<sakrecoer> ÃÂ¤wanted to put it in swedish first, we say "you are a perl"
<flocculant> perl or pearl :p
<sakrecoer> hmm.... good quesiton :D
<sakrecoer> the shiny ones that grow from sand in sea shells
<flocculant> software or oyster irritation :D
<sakrecoer> obviously not in irssi shels :D
<flocculant> \o/
<sakrecoer> hahahahaa!
<flocculant> I love being an irritation :p
<sakrecoer> i never thought of ti like that :D
<flocculant> trust me to ;)
<sakrecoer> :D
<sakrecoer> so it seems Krita is the responsible for pulling in kactivitymanagerd
<sakrecoer> a memeber of Kubuntu-devel said krita and caligra needed to be updated..
<sakrecoer> asked if we had a MOTU member, or "someone who can upload stuff"... i reckon that would be you zequence ? how to update it, i don't know..
<sakrecoer> the log isn't up to date as of now... but it starts here: https://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2016/08/23/%23kubuntu-devel.html#t16:12
<zequence> sakrecoer: I can't upload anything beyond our own packages
<sakrecoer> ok..
<zequence> By our own, I mean packages starting with "ubuntustudio"
<zequence> Our own original source, that is
<sakrecoer> it seems krita didn't make it into yakkety...
<zequence> Kubuntu used to have plenty of uploaders in the past, but I guess they have suffered a bit since their last project lead was forced down
<zequence> What do you mean, didn't make it?
<sakrecoer> well.. the latest krita isn't there... needs to be uploaded, if i understand clivejo correctly...
<zequence> Since they are in charge of those packages (the Kubuntu package set), it is their job to make sure those are working and functional
<zequence> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-archive/packagesets/yakkety/kubuntu
<zequence> Hmm, Krita is not in there it seems
<zequence> It's a KDE app, but I guess since they don't include it by default
<zequence> What exactly is needed then? Is the package updated in Debian (in that case one can do a request-sync)?
<zequence> Our package set is not updated. But, none of us has upload rights to that yet, so
<zequence> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-archive/packagesets/yakkety/ubuntustudio
<sakrecoer> i don't know what exactly is needed i'm affraid...
<zequence> Well, which version of Krita and Caligra are needed?
<sakrecoer> clivejo suggested we do https://wiki.ubuntu.com/FreezeExceptionProcess
<zequence> And, to check which versions are in Debian, you can use rmadison, like so: rmadison -u debian caligra
<sakrecoer> supposidly version 3
<sakrecoer> hmm... "rmadison -u debian caligra" returned nothing 
<zequence> Well, yes, you always need to create a bug when you need someone to sponsor your upload
<sakrecoer> http://paste.ubuntu.com/23082515/
<zequence> sakrecoer: That's cause there's no package named caligra. Which is the right name?
<sakrecoer> caligra is the old name i think...
<zequence> For what?
<zequence> Try the command with krita, anyway
<zequence> rmadison -u debian krita
<zequence> Seems the version in unstable is 2.8.5
<sakrecoer> old name for krita
<zequence> No, sorry. There's nothing in unstable. Weird
<zequence> It may have been removed from unstable because of a critical bug that was never fixed
<sakrecoer> yeah... tsimonq2 stepped in and said he was in the mood for "bribing a sponsor"...
<zequence> calligra is the old name, not caligra
<zequence> Or, it is a suite (Calligra)
<zequence> calligra only exists as source in unstable.
<zequence> Well, this would be a good time to learn more about where packages are, and why they aren't where they should be
<zequence> Question is where to find the cause, and how to solve the problem
<sakrecoer> perhaps you should join in the #kubuntu-devel discussion, zequence ?
<sakrecoer> zequence: now that we are back at US, maybe we should let kubuntu be..? but perhaps, lets stay in there if they get back to us?
<sakrecoer> thanks for stepping in though :)
<sakrecoer> ...there is only so much i can forward blindfolded...
<zequence> There's plenty for me left to learn as well. Like, finding out why a package was dropped from Debian, and why it is not maintained
<zequence> Always possible for someone to step in and do some packaging work
<zequence> Ross may be interested in doing that
<zequence> I think he is kind of eager to get more hands on experience with that, though he may not have all the time in the world
<zequence> Rosco2: Hi
<zequence> Just answered your post on the mail list
<Rosco2> ok - just reading
<sakrecoer> hi Rosco2 o/
<Rosco2> Hi
<zequence> The build problems we have this cycle must beat some kind of a record
<zequence> At least for us
<sakrecoer> :D kindof reliefed to read that though...
<sakrecoer> but until we have it packaged, should we drop it?
<zequence> If krita is not fixed, it may even need to be removed from the archive (along with the whole calligra suite) - since it is in fact not being maintained currently, as it seems
<zequence> Yes, we should drop it from our seeds, and update the meta, so we can get our ISO built and tested
<sakrecoer> i'm for that, at least for now...
<sakrecoer> we still have mypaint which is pretty good in fact...
<Rosco2> I will drop it from the seeds now, and trigger a build to confirm
<zequence> Rosco2: Let me update the meta before you rebuild
<sakrecoer> you can't really compare krita and mypaint, but... if we don't make it till final, we can hide between the argument that it is to encourage the use of snap, and if someone pull the "nvidia not working with snap" card, we can blame it on nvidia not being open :p
<zequence> Rosco2: Would you be interested in updating the calligra source? I get the feeling you would like to do that kind of work, though it is a bit of a challenge taking on something like that.
<zequence> I haven't done that kind of thing myself yet. Think the debian wiki is fairly informative about the git procedures
<zequence> I might be able to do it. Just got sick (for the first time in 1 1/2 years). So, will be at home at least for one more day.
<zequence> There's always the chance that there are a lot of details one needs to understand and deal with, before finishing the update. Then, of course, one needs a sponsor to get it pushed
<zequence> But, perhaps the pkg-kde team could use some help, and are eager to get more people involved. So, could be simple enoughto get rights
<zequence> ..also, the upload after dealing with the source. Lot's of stops and turns.
<Rosco2> Just pushed the seed update
<Rosco2> Will do what it takes to help out. But I don't like to take on something with bugs if there is no support upstream.
<zequence> Rosco2: Ok, will take some time to update the meta. Actually, might not be built and published in the archive for a bit of time
<zequence> Might be best to wait until morning with a rebuild, come to think of it
<zequence> Rosco2: upstream is ok. Krita, at least. Not sure what Calligra actually means
<flocculant> zequence: won't be a rebuild unless someone physically does so from the tracker
<zequence> Krita is past version 3, but last published version in Debian was 2.8 (the git repo is at 2.9, but never uploaded)
<zequence> flocculant: Yes, but we need to update some stuff before we do one
<flocculant> zequence: yes - was just making sure people knew :)
<Rosco2> Never worked out if the Live CD takes the metapackage state, or the germinate output directly
<zequence> Rosco2: Not sure exactly either, but one would think that things may go wrong during installation at least, if the meta is not up to date
<Rosco2> Makes sense
<Rosco2> Might trigger a build anyway as a test once germinate is up to date. We can do another once the meta is done to be sure
<zequence> Rosco2: Sure
<Rosco2> Would check it more scientifically - but I am multitasking here :-)
<zequence> Rosco2: How about applying for upload rights? Not sure how much packaging you have done, but I'm fairly sure you have done more than me. Either you apply for the specific packages (which is a list of our own packages), or for our package set (which needs to be updated before you apply)
<sakrecoer> flocculant: where on the tracker does the rebuld triggering happens?
<zequence> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-archive/packagesets/yakkety/ubuntustudio
<zequence> sakrecoer: You need to login as a member of the -release team, in order to be able to do it
<sakrecoer> Rosco2: from the discussion with jbicha yesterday, i think i understood that it takes sometime for the germinate process to pick up changes in seed... but yeah... you want to double check that information, comming from me..
<Rosco2> We could try PPU rights for us-* packages with your support
<zequence> Rosco2: I would prefer that. So, you have my support.
<Rosco2> I tried to become a Contributor, but was turned down
<zequence> Ok. Why?
<Rosco2> ANd that was wothout upload rights :-)
<Rosco2> NO support from sponsors was the reason
<zequence> Ah
<Rosco2> Holidays is my excuse
<zequence> Yes, in that regard, I am of some help, but not as much as I would like to be.
<Rosco2> Didn't chase up
<zequence> I mean, I'm not exactly a veteran at packaging. More of a do-it-when-it-needs-to-be-done
<Rosco2> sakrecoer, You need to log in to tracker as member of us-release team
<Rosco2> Then you will find the option at the bopttom of the screen
<sakrecoer> zequence, Rosco2: ok, i am a memer of us-release, so you guys can discharge on me if needed.. i wouldn't dare press any buttons there without consulting you first anyways.
<Rosco2> Whoops I am repeating
<sakrecoer> :) better than risking things left unsaid, Rosco2 
<zequence> sakrecoer: The buttons are for you to press. If you need a rebuild, and one is not already happening, just press the buttons.
<Rosco2> Yeah its best that one person does it - incase we confuse the build machine
<zequence> The tracker lets you know if a rebuild is on the way
<zequence> Sometimes the rebuilds may choke. It's not a perfect
<Rosco2> You can always ask for someone in the release team to log in a fix it - if we ever Â¤%& up
<zequence> At least we know we can depend on Rosco2 to make sure the releases are happning
<zequence> I mean, he is taking responsibility of the release procedure, very much. But, we who have rights can always chip in as well, if we feel we need to, is what I mean
<Rosco2> Yeah - all seemed to go OK when I was on hols
<sakrecoer> :)
<sakrecoer> thanks guys, good to know all this
<Rosco2> Bug #1616175
<ubottu> bug 1616175 in ubuntustudio-meta (Ubuntu) "Ubuntu Studio Live CD build failing due to dependency loop" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1616175
<sakrecoer> thanks Rosco2 ! :)
<zequence> is krita installable at all, right now?
<sakrecoer> zequence: in yakkety, i don't know. i erased the partition for 14.04.5 since then everytime i've tried install has failed.
<sakrecoer> in xenial, yes.
<zequence> The krita problem should only have happened quite recently, as some other packages were updated but not krita (or, the calligra source)
<Rosco2> VM still installing. Will try installing krita when done
<Rosco2> Just ammusing myself looking at the 3 release critical bugs for krita in Debian
<zequence> Not sure what is going on with the Kubuntu deal. Someone is packaging krita, and trying to get it into Debian, but has no interest in Debian.
<Rosco2> It apears there are non-free files in the package
 * sakrecoer slaps the copyright realm with a large bass
<zequence> Rosco2: I was trying to find bugs like that myself, earlier.
<zequence> https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/pkgreport.cgi?pkg=krita;dist=unstable
<zequence> Am I missing something?
<Rosco2> Try https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/pkgreport.cgi?src=calligra&archive=no&pend-exc=pending-fixed&pend-exc=fixed&pend-exc=done&sev-inc=critical&sev-inc=grave&sev-inc=serious&repeatmerged=yes
<zequence> Right, of course. Calligra, not Krita
<zequence> It's a mess
<Rosco2> All looks fixable. But will take time to work with upstream, and get latest into Debian first
<zequence> A lesson for the future: keep track of packages that were removed from Debian ustable :)
<Rosco2> Yes - I want to write some little scripts to do that. Can check for required merges as well.
<zequence> My apt source checkup tool could probably do that, but it's unfinished and a little bit buggy. 
<zequence> Well, that's about all I can handle tonight. Will be back tomorrow. Meta just got done, and will upload now.
<Rosco2> Thanks
<sakrecoer> thank you zequence !
<OvenWerks> Both lrita and calligra show release activity this year. No upstream? Unmaintained? sounds odd.
<OvenWerks> *krita
<Rosco2> Ovenwerks: The problems seem to be QT4/5 conversion, library dependency changes & non-free files in Debian
<Rosco2> Upstream have Qt5 version but call it unstable.
<Rosco2> We have not stnced from Debian for a long time-. But we are not keeping it up to date either.
 * Rosco2 finishes for the day
<OvenWerks> we do have qt5, but licence changes would be a killer.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2016-08-24
<flocculant> sakrecoer: good luck :p
<sakrecoer> ye...
<sakrecoer> lol...
<sakrecoer> very quiet in there...
 * sakrecoer signs the ISO-blues into the void of a silent interweb
<sakrecoer> flocculant: you know how to use rmadison? :D
<zequence> sakrecoer: man rmadison
<sakrecoer> thanks zequence, it didn't quite clear it up, but i got the command from apw in -release :)
<zequence> sakrecoer: Think perhaps your problem was in interpreting the results
<zequence> The different pockets (proposed, updates, etc)
<sakrecoer> well... that, yes.. also, finding out what source to query, and how to use the -a flag...
<sakrecoer> but apw anticipated my doubts and explained to me how to read the output
<zequence> The -a flag in this instance was pointless, because there is no binary package called ubuntustudio-meta
<zequence> You get the same result without "-a source"
<sakrecoer> this is what apw gave me: "rmadison -a source ubuntustudio-meta"
<zequence> Yes, I saw that. And, as I said, you get the same result without "-a source"
<zequence> ..because there is no binary package called ubuntustudio-meta
<sakrecoer> ok..
<sakrecoer> :)
<astraljava> True, but the former takes considerably less time. :)
<sakrecoer> indeed astraljava ..
<sakrecoer> didn't think about it until you pointed it out..
<sakrecoer> thought it was my conneciton or something
<sakrecoer> weird... the 0.160 didn't move up...
<sakrecoer> it disapeard, and yakkety/unierse is still att 0.159
<sakrecoer> probably patience is my answer...
 * sakrecoer runs ./relax.sh
<astraljava> Curiously 'Weightless' by Marconi Union cues. :p
<sakrecoer> astraljava: very nice! video is amazing!
<sakrecoer> suits me, since i'm kindof in this mood: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yw9GNz-EYP8 :p
<sakrecoer> SILVER BULLET- 20 SECONDS TO COMPLY 
<astraljava> I only listed it as it is apparently the most relaxing song ever, according to science. :D
<sakrecoer> haha! ...i wonder what sceintific processes are used to define such a criteria :D
<astraljava> You can read more about it here: http://www.makeuseof.com/tag/most-relaxing-songs-all-time-science/
<sakrecoer> thanks astraljava ! very interesting.
<sakrecoer> ok, just triggered the rebuid.
<astraljava> No probs, yeah it's always fascinating to see what science has to say about things that are seemingly very unique.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2016-08-25
<OvenWerks> Ardour 5.1 may hit debian real soon
<sakrecoer> i am having huge issues with i386 iso...
<sakrecoer> it install ok... but keyboard is in wrong layout..
<sakrecoer> network manager refuses to start, so impossible to send bug repport..
<sakrecoer> is there a way to send the output of ubuntu-bug to an usb key?
<sakrecoer> to be fair, it could be due to my live-usb, although i have tested 2...
<sakrecoer> when i dd the i386 to a usb, the usb become unmountable... but it works fine in live-session and well, installation completed sucessfully
<sakrecoer> gparted tells me the usb is corrupt, if i erase the partition, then it mounts ok, and displays the content of a live-usb, but gparted regards it as empty
<sakrecoer> hmm.. NM/applet restarted after a long while..
<sakrecoer> but "plain" swedish is missing from keyboard layouts...
<sakrecoer> i have dvorak, macintosh, and something that would translate into "with muted keys removed"...
<sakrecoer> svdorak and yeah.. lots of things i don\t have
<sakrecoer> oh... ubuntu/bug xfce4-keyboard-settings gives me "cannot be repported, problem bleongs to a package that is not installed"
<sakrecoer> although i did spell it correctly in the terminal >p
<sakrecoer> and it starts ok, if i start it from terminal...
<zequence> sakrecoer: dd does something weird. Next time, try setting bs= to something, like bs=512
<zequence> But, that stuff is not related to running the OS.
<zequence> Has anyone checked changes in Xubuntu lately, and if it would be wise for us to sync some of that?
<zequence> DE stuff is not our field, but if we leaver our DE unmaintined, bad things can happen
<zequence> I'm not going to do that, since I'm trying to uninvolve myself from development. I'm merely here to prevent disasters and help with technical problems until I'm not needed anymore
<zequence> sakrecoer: I would get Xubuntu's seeds and check changes in the past 1/2 year
<sakrecoer> thank zequence. of course i understand... i think we were good with the xubuntu sync...
<sakrecoer> i'll try that dd thing
<sakrecoer> i'd have to double check the xubuntu sync though obvisouly..
<sakrecoer> another interesting bug, is that calibre crashes if one starts hydrogen
<sakrecoer> the repport generated must be mb big beacuse it takes for ever to upload.
<sakrecoer> i know krytarik checked it, but that was a few weeks ago
<sakrecoer> sorry context... he checked the xubuntu sync
<zequence> Once or twice I tried to develop a sort of schedule for the development work https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/DevelopmentCycle
<sakrecoer> intersting, the calibre bug gets marked as private..
<zequence> One could go further with that and add specifik tasks to be done during specific periods.
<sakrecoer> nice zequence !
<sakrecoer> i have seen that page before, but recently i was looking for and couldn't find it
<zequence> Currently, since we are copying Xubuntu, we should check changes just before FF, and before each Beta and before the RC
<zequence> The link is under "Planning Documentation" on the sidebar, and the link "Development Cycle"
<sakrecoer> wasn't there a scheduleing for contribution calls?
<sakrecoer> thank you! :) 
<zequence> What are contribution calls?
<sakrecoer> call for contribution..? :P
<sakrecoer> i mean, like "hey everyone in user, want to be a dev? we need you to be dev!"
<zequence> Always good to do that in the beginning of a new cycle.
<zequence> But, you can also do one when testing begins after Beta1
<zequence> The beginning is more for those who want to be in for a half year, and learn the whole thing
<zequence> Testing is a good and simple way to get involved, and get to know people
<zequence> I tried doing that now and then, but would have liked someone else to be responsible for the whole PR part of things
<zequence> Ross is the only one with a clear area of responsibility right now
<zequence> Or, sort of clear. Perhaps it could be made even more clear.
<zequence> Maybe he would prefer that as well.
<zequence> One thing I never tried was calling for specific contributors. Like - we need a PR person
<zequence> or, we need people who would like to do documentation - both video and writing
<zequence> Chances to find even one are always small, but if you don't try, chances are even smaller
<sakrecoer> :)
<sakrecoer> yeah.. everyone is doing a bit of everything right now, that is an issue indeed...
<sakrecoer> but being such a small team sort of makes it so..
<sakrecoer> zequence: bs=512 fixed dd's bad behaviour
<zequence> sakrecoer: Yes. Not sure what dd does otherwise. But there seems to be some confusion around sector sizes, or something like that, if you do not use that option
<zequence> But, again, it will have no effect on running the OS. Will just make it easier using disk managers
<sakrecoer> zequence: the odd thing is that i've used dd like that since i first installed a daily in october last year, never noticed this rpoblem before.. but, yeah that is exactly what gparted complained about: the particition apears to be 2048 but linux says 512...
<sakrecoer> haha.. particition... i am the particitian from mars
<zequence> Could be the ISOs are done differently recently. When you dd, you copy a whole filesystem onto something, and everything that goes with it
<zequence> On that note, I'm preparing a LFS system on a less than 16GB partition, which I will be storing as an image file with dd
<zequence> No package management. Everything built from source. Going to update it now and then. Going to try to make it studio friendly, as a hobby project
<zequence> Easily shared by just sharing the image file
<zequence> Actually, one could make that a rolling release, if /home and let's say /opt and /usr/local are on one or more separate partitions
<zequence> And /snap, of course
<zequence> A bit OT, but it will have systemd and gnome3
<sakrecoer> amd64 failed again on hardware for me...
<sakrecoer> haven't been sucessfull with that one since 20160805
<sakrecoer> bug #1616901
<ubottu> bug 1616901 in ubiquity (Ubuntu) "Installation of Ubuntu Studio 16.10 beta1 failed" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1616901
<zequence> sakrecoer: Are other flavors having similar problems? Did you check the error files?
<sakrecoer> ubuntu mate on powerpc... otherwise non seem to have the same problem
<zequence> Check the error logs that are added with the bug report
<sakrecoer> error files or attached in the bugg repport...
<sakrecoer> 14:11:06 hostname /plugininstall.py[14274]: apt_pkg.Error: E:Write error - write (32: Broken pipe)
<zequence> Which file is that?
<sakrecoer> JournalErrors.txt
<zequence> Could be a problem with our ubiquity plugin. Just guessing
<zequence> Wonder why that would only happen on AMD64 though
<sakrecoer> yeah... 
<sakrecoer> how do i escalate it?...
<zequence> No, I don't think our plugin is the cause, but who knows
<sakrecoer> i don't know either... i'll try without encrypting the home folder one time... thats all i can think i do differently since i installed the daily succesfully last time
<zequence> sakrecoer: That is actually a common bug recently
<zequence> sakrecoer: So, yes, do not use that
<sakrecoer> zequence: no difference...
<sakrecoer> anyone else in here who could do a hardware install test for our amd64?
<sakrecoer> we can't exclude my hardware is dead...
<sakrecoer> and it appears to eb working with a VM, ross marked it as passed on VM..
<sakrecoer> the beta1 amd64  release candidate that is
<zequence> I'm unable to a full install. I say pass it, but try to figure out why your AMD64 is not installing
<zequence> I mean, your test didn't pass
<zequence> Well, perhaps Ross should be asked too about the whole thing. When to mark the ISOs ready, that is
<sakrecoer> definitly
<sakrecoer> kyline be like http://bomarpestcontrol.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/houston-pest-control-01-1024x1024.png
<sakrecoer> zequence: do you know where the files for the first menu that appears when booting a live session are located? 
<sakrecoer> they should be here: https://launchpad.net/ubuntustudio-look
<sakrecoer> but it doesn't really look like they are..
<sakrecoer> in that menu, where the "try ubuntustudio without installing" is located, it looks like "progress_box.png" is used, but it isn't.. it would also be nice to translate the first entry, since the QA test includes a step to specificaly verify all entries get translated according to language selection
<sakrecoer> "progress_box.png" being the old ubuntu studio woodmark
<zequence> sakrecoer: I've never checked that, actually.
<sakrecoer> i've been looking all over the place for a long time, but i can't find it..
<zequence> My guess it is with whatever package that is responsible for that menu.
<zequence> It is the same menu we had before going with live images
<sakrecoer> yeah.. my guess is ubiquity, but i can't find the ubuntustudio specific one..
<sakrecoer> ho Rosco2 !
<sakrecoer> hi even
<sakrecoer> sorry
<zequence> No, it's not ubiquity
<zequence> ubiquity is a GUI application that you can install
<zequence> ubiquity does not handle boot
<zequence> It's something much older than that
<Rosco2> Hi there. Was just checking the status and reading Set's installation failure.
<Rosco2> I asked for more information on the bug. Srry if that was already provided here :-)
<OvenWerks> nor grub for the iso. 
<sakrecoer> Ross, i don't have much more info.. but let me look at what you wrote..
<sakrecoer> Rosco2: ^
<zequence> Perhaps debian-installer
<Rosco2> Have there been other ubiuity bugs on the other flavours?
<sakrecoer> not that i've seen...
<sakrecoer> i answered on the bug,..
<sakrecoer> Rosco2: "I get to do all the steps; it fails after copying the files, during installation/unpacking process."
<sakrecoer> i don't really know what else i can say...
<sakrecoer> i coudln't find drumgizmo by the way... only dgedit..
<zequence> sakrecoer: dpkg -s drumgizmo
<zequence> Doesn't seem to have a desktop file
<Rosco2> Mate had one (ubiquity bug) related to internationalisation
<sakrecoer> It looks like we need to work on the desktop files anyways.
<zequence> Don't think it includes one
<Rosco2> Googled the error message in the log attached to your bug
<Rosco2> Found another bug with the same error
<Rosco2> Bug 1611010
<ubottu> bug 1611010 in ubiquity (Ubuntu) "yakkety desktop - non-english installation crashes with /plugininstall.py: ValueError: invalid literal for int() with base 10: ''" [Critical,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1611010
<sakrecoer> Rosco2: we've had an internationalisation bug for very long now. bug #1550186
<ubottu> bug 1550186 in ubiquity (Ubuntu) "First entry of boot-menu "Try UbuntuStudio without installing" do not get translated into the chosen language" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1550186
<Rosco2> A fix was released for that (apt) 5 hours ago
<sakrecoer> oh, that looks like a more real one..
<sakrecoer> it is defenitly related to pluginstall.py, what i ahve...
<zequence> drumgimo is lv2, but the standalone seems gui-less
<sakrecoer> well... i don't knwo for sure... but the log message speaks about it a lot
<Rosco2> Sorry - copy & paste error
<Rosco2> Bug 1611010
<ubottu> bug 1611010 in ubiquity (Ubuntu) "yakkety desktop - non-english installation crashes with /plugininstall.py: ValueError: invalid literal for int() with base 10: ''" [Critical,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1611010
<sakrecoer> Rosco2: no, i pasted the other bug :)
<sakrecoer> the one you pasted seem more serious and likely to be what i have
<Rosco2> OK - have to go pick up my son
<sakrecoer> alright! :)
<Rosco2> Anyone else in the middle of testing?
<zequence> Not me
<sakrecoer> not that i know, maybe OvenWerks ?
<Rosco2> OK. As it is probably fixed and confined to non-english installs we can probably mark it as ready
<Rosco2> I will update the release notes when I get back
<sakrecoer> well... my install was in english... only desktop layout is in swedish
<sakrecoer> but... sure...
<Rosco2> Yes - that sees to be the problem
<Rosco2> Tell it you live in New York :-)
<sakrecoer> ok...
<sakrecoer> i will try that!
<Rosco2> Thats what one of the comments was to the other bug
<OvenWerks> sakrecoer: I am in the middle of printing to a USB stick. But I need to get ready to go out.
<sakrecoer> oh damn it... my grub is screwed..
<sakrecoer> OvenWerks: ok :) do as you can :)
<sakrecoer> i started ont this: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/YakketyYak/Beta1/UbuntuStudio
<sakrecoer> If the install succeeds with keyboard layoutin english, i will add it to known issues.
<sakrecoer> \o/
<sakrecoer> it wooooorked!
<Rosco2> Are you sure it was the keyboard layout?
<Rosco2> I was able to choose Copenhagen, Danish Keyboard and English language on the laptop
<sakrecoer> well... sure is big word...
<sakrecoer> but i found this: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ubiquity/+bug/1612448
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1612448 in ubiquity (Ubuntu) "Ubuntu MATE 'entire disk' installation crashes (16.10, ppc)" [Undecided,New]
<Rosco2> :-)
<sakrecoer> althouhg its ppc...
<sakrecoer> Rosco2: do you reckon there could be a difference between hardware and VM install on that.. ehm.. localization level
<OvenWerks> sakrecoer: I see the problem with the menu. One of the system files we were using is no longer there. I will create a Studio specific one and put it in. (after I get back later today)
<sakrecoer> thank you OvenWerks ! :)
<sakrecoer> OvenWerks: a hole bunch of new tools were pulled in by dispcalgui, perhpas they should go with iamge magic, can setc, but that undercategory be renamed to something in the lines of utilities?
<sakrecoer> Rosco2: do you think we should marka s ready?
<sakrecoer> i mean, you said so, but... :D didn't change your mind?
<sakrecoer> i'm sure it can wait until you are back anyway
<Rosco2> WHoops. I probably should have mentioned that I had already created https://wiki.ubuntu.com/YakketyYak/ReleaseNotes/Beta1/UbuntuStudio
<Rosco2> It was basically a copy of Xenial Beta (modified to Yakkety) 
<Rosco2> I will delete it in a bit - incase you want to scan it
<Rosco2> Marked images ready in the tracker!
<sakrecoer> ok... np :) it takes two person to be off synch :D
<sakrecoer> thank you for marking ready, will scan your wiki Rosco2 :)
<Rosco2> My danish install was in a VM - so that could be the difference
<Rosco2> My hardware install was on the desktop which has an Engilish keyboard
<sakrecoer> ok, i finished the wiki page :)
<sakrecoer> if anyone fancies a proof read: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/YakketyYak/Beta1/UbuntuStudio
<Rosco2> LGTM - a good compilation :-)
<Rosco2> Deleted the other one just now
<sakrecoer> thanks Rosco2 :)
<sakrecoer> i really want you to feel in charge of release, Rosco2. I hope you understand my sole interest was to relief you from workload, given you said you would be tight on timing this round. Also since i got involved with holding it for the flavours, i just went with the flow.
<Rosco2> No probs - don't care how - as long as it gets done
<sakrecoer> however, as i see it, in that domain, you have the last word :)
<sakrecoer> cool!
<Rosco2> Next time I will let you know
<Rosco2> I knew you might be busy chasing other release notes too this time :-)
<sakrecoer> :) yeah.. i am also responsible for not communicating that wiki page with you earlier :)
<OvenWerks> sakrecoer: what about dispcalgui itself? Should it be in graphic utility too?
<sakrecoer> OvenWerks: yes, or settings manager :)
<sakrecoer> i mean, its supposed to be fiddeled with once, and then forgotten until next freshinstall...
<sakrecoer> OvenWerks: which in is it though?
<sakrecoer> dispcalgyu itself...
<sakrecoer> DisplayCAL?
<sakrecoer> oh wow... i plays a tune on start up :O
<sakrecoer> need to hustle myself in to a studio where someone has one of those devices...
<OvenWerks> Ok we need someone to upload/release ubuntustudipo-menu - zequence or ???
<sakrecoer> OvenWerks: probably.. but i think we ahve until UI freeze on the 20th september to arrange that. :)
<sakrecoer> OvenWerks: ah... sorry... 8th of september..
<sakrecoer> week 20 of the cycle :/ i always confuse those numbers
<zequence> OvenWerks: I'll have to do it tomorrow. Getting late, and being too sick tonight.
<zequence> sakrecoer: Might be easier to think backwards. 1 month before release - Beta 2, 2 months before release - Beta 1, etc
<OvenWerks> zequence: Thank you. It appears there is no rush
<sakrecoer> That dispcalgui looks like a really powerfull tool...
<sakrecoer> i'm eager to be able to test it...
<sakrecoer> and the doc looks super consistent...
#ubuntustudio-devel 2016-08-26
<zequence> OvenWerks: I uploaded the new ubuntustudio-menu.
<sakrecoer> thank you zequence :)
<sakrecoer> and thank you OvenWerks !
<sakrecoer> i'll be away today.... no special reason, just need to deal with some stuff..
<OvenWerks> Are we still having daily builds to test?
<OvenWerks> Must be coming up soon.
<flocculant> OvenWerks: should have - seems something is awry on the tracker - someone needs to sort that out in -release
<flocculant> OvenWerks: and as I've just been reminded - there's a cron for daily builds - studio hasn't happened yet ;)
<flocculant> 17 18 * * *	for-project ubuntustudio cron.dvd --live
<flocculant> just so you're aware of when it should build, UTC time afaik
<OvenWerks> flocculant: and looking at: http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/ubuntustudio/dvd/current/ it looks like I should be looking around 18:45UTC, it is just 17:53
<flocculant> OvenWerks: this page is handy - https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-cdimage/+livefs/ubuntu/yakkety/ubuntustudio
<OvenWerks> well that site says we have a build... not showing in http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/ubuntustudio/dvd/current/ yet though
<flocculant> OvenWerks: takes a little while for all to sync
<OvenWerks> Starting to transfer now. Old stuff gone.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2016-08-27
<FManTropyx> now, I'm not sure what to do with my download mirrors: I don't have enough space on those small VPSs those host all 4 images - maybe I will just support the 64-bit version or perhaps simply replace the 16.04 images with 16.04.1
<sakrecoer> thats kind of you FManTropyx :)
<FManTropyx> not being sure what to do? :P
<flocculant> FManTropyx: in a simple world the difference between 16.04 and point releases is that all the updates between one and next is all the updates between are not needed
<flocculant> eg .1 will be 16.04 updated
<flocculant> however I'm not sure how HWE impacts on point releases
<flocculant> also, if you keep them all you'd end up with 16.04, .1, .2, .3, .4, .5
<sakrecoer> OMGubuntu always forget to mention studio...
<sakrecoer> except for that dvd iso size melodrama.. :D
<flocculant> imagine that
<sakrecoer> maybe we need more controversy to be promoted by them :D
<flocculant> :)
<autumna> I am back from traveling. where are we with the krita problem? do we still need somebody to package it? 
<OvenWerks> autumna: it is removed from our iso for now I think.
<OvenWerks> FManTropyx: I would suggest to have 16.04.1 (then .2 when it comes out)
<autumna> ok
<autumna> owenwerks: so what needs to be done is to package it for debian, or help the kubuntu team? I have been trying to skim through the chat but slightly confused
<OvenWerks> autumna: I am not any less confused :) just that it has something to do with moving to qt5
<autumna> (and yeah mypaint is great although they are not replacements to each other. I actually love using MyPaint for early sketching, and krita for a lot of work including even some of the photography work these days)
<autumna> OvenWerks: I would really like to help, I am just confused from conversations I saw what to do  - if there is anything that can be done
<OvenWerks> I would really like to help you help  :)  but even though I code other sw... packaging just makes my eyes glace over.
<autumna> yeah I have the same reaction a bit
<autumna> but considering I wanted to already package some other stuff as well so that we can add to US
<autumna> need to learn how to do it at some point.
<sakrecoer> autumna, pick up on Ross offer to teach via the mailing list
<sakrecoer> autumna: https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-studio-devel/2016-August/008023.html
<autumna> oooh
<autumna> sure will do
<autumna> if he has time through
<sakrecoer> autumna: if you do it via the mailing list, it might be a bit slow, but it would help others (me! :D) and  he could do it wheneer he's got time..
<autumna> that sounds like a good plan
<autumna> I just wanted to check in briefly because it wasn't clear to me from IRC logs if somebody was on it?
<autumna> or that the situation was outside our ability to do, or if it was just discussing options
<sakrecoer> another kindof game killer in the graphics workflow is this bug #1579536
<ubottu> bug 1579536 in font-manager (Ubuntu) ""Querying installed files" process on start-up takes abnormally long (~20minutes)" [Medium,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1579536
<sakrecoer> seems font-manager in debian is super old...
<sakrecoer> and well, it would be nice to package/maintain it aswell...
<autumna> sakrecoer, whoever else is interested, maybe we can schedule a time, to, well, each pick a package sit together in devel chat, and try to package and upload something 
<autumna> then we can email rosco whatever we get stuck at. etc
#ubuntustudio-devel 2016-08-28
<sakrecoer> i am up for that autumna ! excellent motivation!
<sakrecoer> the font manager issue is bothering me a lot.. its a small yet almost crucial piece in the graphics workflow...
<sakrecoer> i'm willing the call the workflow broken without it. at least any graphic work with typography
<sakrecoer> of course its still possible to work wthout it, but it gets annoying without it if there are +1000 fontd in the system, and i think we have +1200
<autumna> sakrecoer: I agree. well you can package that and I can try to see if I can get krita to work, although I should probably make sure I can build krita first. 
 * sakrecoer looks at the mountain of knowledge he has to ingurgitate
<sakrecoer> i will try my best.. font-manager will require an SRU... 
<autumna> SRU?
<sakrecoer> stable release upgrade
<sakrecoer> so that it reaches 16.04 users too..
<autumna> ah
<sakrecoer> nobody has the patience to wait for the fonts to load..
<autumna> yeah well, I also thought the thing crashed that first time
<sakrecoer> it works, but not as it should. that id a lot faster
<autumna> *nods*
<autumna> I'll need a bit of time to fix my setup before I can do the packaging. what is the deadline to get krita into yakkety?
<autumna> or is that even possible?
<sakrecoer> yesterday? .. we will need some exception and a sponsor..
<sakrecoer> more like 2 weeks ago tbh.. but i think it is doable  
<autumna> *is nervous*
<sakrecoer> maybe you should join #kubuntu-devel and look if you can team up efforts
<autumna> sure
<sakrecoer> not sure how it would be best done tbh..
<autumna> we'll figure it out while doing it? right now what I am going to do first, is to re-read this manual, and figure what I need to put into my VM to build krita
<autumna> then figure out if I CAN build krita
<autumna> once that happens
<autumna> then I can ask for help
<sakrecoer> sounds like a fair plan :)
<autumna> what is the issue with the non-free things through? do you know?
<autumna> I saw the IRC chat between you and zequence and others but I am a bit lost. 
<sakrecoer> something with the new qt.. not too clear either..
<sakrecoer> if i got it right, something with new qt don't conply with debian policy..
<sakrecoer> *comply..
<sakrecoer> but yeah, as usual, information about such things, when comming from me, needs doublechecking :/
<autumna> ok maybe I should begin by joining kubuntu-devel
<sakrecoer> be considerate, i know you will, but i know they are kindof stressed atm...
<sakrecoer> so, just saying :)
<autumna> when I am not considerate? :D but thanks for the heads up
<sakrecoer> well.. 'stresed' is a big word, but they hada game stopper during betaq..
<sakrecoer> beta1*
<autumna> oh no
<OvenWerks> autumna: there is qt and there is qt... Our repos already do have qt 5.5, but maybe krita got acidently built against the non-free version.
<OvenWerks> It would seem to me that should not be that hard to fix, but it may be that the free and non-free versions of qt have different numbers.
<OvenWerks> autumna: there is qt and there is qt... Our repos already do have  qt 5.5, but maybe krita got acidently built against the non-free  version.
<autumna> hi (fyi ovenwerks if you just said before the last line I probably missed it, IRC setup hiccup)
<sakrecoer> 15:53 < OvenWerks> autumna: there is qt and there is qt... Our repos already  do have qt 5.5, but maybe krita got acidently built  against the non-free version.
<sakrecoer> 15:55 < OvenWerks> It would seem to me that should not be that hard to fix,  but it may be that the free and non-free versions of qt  have different numbers.
<autumna> ah
<autumna> thanks OvenWerks (and thanks sakrecoer)
<autumna> brb
<sakrecoer> OvenWerks, is it an option to package something in ubuntustudio, while waiting for it to get to debian? i understand it is what we will do with numix, but would it work for apps like font-manager or krita?
<OvenWerks> sakrecoer: what might be an option is to see if the package in 16.04 would just work in 16.10 and repackage that.
<OvenWerks> qt4 has not gone away.
 * autumna tries to catch up to the conversation
<OvenWerks> in other words use krita 2.9.7
<autumna> OvenWerks if that works, it would be a good backup
<sakrecoer> OvenWerks: that could be an option.. for fontmanager it isn't: the version in ubuntu and debian are years old..
<autumna> while we sort this problem out
<OvenWerks> that may not work if some of the other kde bits have advanced too far. I don't know the whole dependancy chain.
<sakrecoer> well... old is not the problem.. its pretty broken..
<OvenWerks> sakrecoer: I was talking about krita in this case.
<OvenWerks> fontmanager is different.
<sakrecoer> yeah.. sorry.. my bad for mentioning both i my question
<OvenWerks> fontmanager may be suffering bitrot.
<sakrecoer> OvenWerks: the one in debain and ubuntu is, but it is actively developed upstream
<OvenWerks> so it needs someone in debian to do something.
<sakrecoer> OvenWerks: so packaging it for ubuntu is not an option? that means it will be ready for 17.04, right?
<sakrecoer> OvenWerks: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/font-manager/+bug/1579536
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1579536 in font-manager (Ubuntu) ""Querying installed files" process on start-up takes abnormally long (~20minutes)" [Medium,Confirmed]
<OvenWerks> font manager bangs one of my core to 100% while loading. It is not taking 20 mins... we have 0.5.7
<sakrecoer> OvenWerks: you trying it on 16.10?
<OvenWerks> it only took 2 or 3 minutes to load here
<OvenWerks> 04.
<sakrecoer> current fontmanager from devs personal ppa is 0.7.2 
<sakrecoer> OvenWerks: really? with all fonts installed?
<OvenWerks> sakrecoer: whatever Studio comes with.
<sakrecoer> ok...
<sakrecoer> right
<sakrecoer> OvenWerks: its not the first time you load the fonts right?
<sakrecoer> the second time it works better, but try install a new font and see what happens
<OvenWerks> I don't recall having run it before since install.
<sakrecoer> i think you checked when i reppoerted the bug, but i might be not recal correctly..
<sakrecoer> and maybe you have resintalled since then :)
<OvenWerks> But really, the repo should be kept up with the devs site.
<sakrecoer> you mean the debian repo?
<OvenWerks> Has a bug been added to debian's packge to upgrade?
<OvenWerks> sakrecoer: have you tried the newer fontmanager from the ppa? does it solve the problem?
<sakrecoer> OvenWerks: yes
<sakrecoer> it solves the problem
<OvenWerks> Then the bug for debian to upgrade should include that info.
<sakrecoer> i mean this ppa: https://launchpad.net/font-manager
<sakrecoer> and it adds features!
<sakrecoer> for example it reads the super weird mac font format..
<sakrecoer> and it enables those files for use with all software.
<OvenWerks> At this point we get into politics :)
<sakrecoer> really?
<sakrecoer> its not the only new feature though
<OvenWerks> but we need to ask if we can take the source package from that ppa and use it in the ubuntu repo till debian gets thgeir act together
<sakrecoer> ok, who do we ask?
<OvenWerks> perhaps run it through lintian to see if there are any debian probalems with policy and repackage for debian too if no one else will.
<OvenWerks> autumna: font manager may be a good place to start with packaging seeing as someone already has done most of the work.
<autumna> OvenWerks: I was planning to let sakrecoer do that
<OvenWerks> :)
<autumna> since I already have a package in mind that is easier, if krita turns out of to be problematic
<OvenWerks> cool
<autumna> (godot, is supposed to be VERY easy to build)
<autumna> (and has very few dependencies which probably means less problem with policy)
<autumna> OvenWerks I did miss a good portion of what you were saying earlier. was the leaving the old version of krita a backup solution? or were you suggesting that we might not be able to get 3.0 in?
<OvenWerks> autumna: I was saying put the old version in if we can.
<autumna> I see
<autumna> well I assumed that old version was breaking the iso which started all this but.. *shrugs* 
<OvenWerks> the problem I see is that it requires calligra-libs = 2.9.7
<OvenWerks> which means exact
<OvenWerks> but then it was those libs that were the problem? so backing off on those might be a good idea too.
<OvenWerks> Next question, there are no other applications that do what krita does?
<autumna> OvenWerks not really no 
<OvenWerks> Well all of my thoughts are from someone who's understanding of packaging is close to nil.
<autumna> MyPaint is great lightweight software but it is for sketching, not finished work. Krita has tons of features that it doesn't has, such as effect layers, 32bit images etc (actually I would almost say krita is better in some image tasks at the moment than even gimp is)
<autumna> OvenWerks it still is helpful
<autumna> but yeah basically missing krita, is a bit like audio-meta missing ardour, for graphics :D
<sakrecoer> krita is the ony picture software we have that supports cmyk..
<sakrecoer> ..and missing font-manager is like missing qjackctl :D
<OvenWerks> cinepaint seems to be dying
<sakrecoer> (almost)
<autumna> heh
<autumna> OvenWerks: I think gimp is supposed to get features that cinepaint brings, if i understand correctly
<OvenWerks> so they are both crtical then. Who is the person who packaged the last font manager in debian? are they still around/interested?
<OvenWerks> autumna: I thought cinepaint came into being because gimp didn't want that.
<OvenWerks> but maybe as 4k monitors get cheap (and memory) that has changed.
<autumna> OvenWerks: I know they intend to support 32bit images on next version
<autumna> I mean I THINK they do if I understood the roadmap on the wiki correctly
<OvenWerks> does gimp support a stream of images in a directory (individual video frames) the way cinepaint does?
<autumna> define support?
<autumna> as in support modifying them in batch?
<OvenWerks> :) I can't really, I just remember it being mentioned as one of the differences from one to the other.
<autumna> gimp doesn't allow batch editing by default, but there is a plugin that does it quite well. (which requires building unfortunately) 
<OvenWerks> remember, I am not a graphics video person... I just remember stuff I read once.
<autumna> ;)
<autumna> sorry just curiosity
<autumna> OvenWerks I remember somebody linking a list of all packages in ubuntustudio. do you remember where it was?
<autumna> nevermind just found it
<OvenWerks> no, I don't. I do see a file in the same directory as the download.
<OvenWerks> http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/ubuntustudio/dvd/current/yakkety-dvd-amd64.manifest
<OvenWerks> There are a lot of k5 things in there.
<OvenWerks> I wonder if the old krita might be kept alive by making it a snap package?
 * OvenWerks still misses GCDMaster
<sakrecoer> OvenWerks: there is a snap version, but snap breaks for people using nvidia... so krita via snaps + nvidia drivers = broken
<OvenWerks> sakrecoer: and someone doing graphics/video is more likely to have a graphics card nicer than thge MB intel ;)
<sakrecoer> yes
<OvenWerks> Someone who is Audio will probably use the MB intel on purpose just because it breaks the least things.
<sakrecoer> and we would have to investigate into how to ship snaps with the iso...
<sakrecoer> i was about to say, someone doing Audio will probably want to have soundcard, to have enough in an out puts... but what do i know?
<OvenWerks> sakrecoer: these days, some one doing audio with a small buget will probably want to buy a new USB card...
<autumna> I think they fixed the snap issue for one version of nvidia driver 340 but yeah the bug persists overall. 
<sakrecoer> i mean, someone doing graphics for fun and editing holliday video in opoesnhot is also more likely to use MB... for someone with a higher ambition will look into equipment
<sakrecoer> OvenWerks: yeah, i guess so :)
<OvenWerks> MB USB do not do low latency audio well. http://crimeandtheforcesofevil.com/blog/2016/07/25/so-hey-usb-chipsets-totally-matter/
<sakrecoer> i'm desperatly looking for the tool to get debian sources wiht ubuntu..
<OvenWerks> This is what people found with firewire audio too... except in that case a bad chipset just didn't work at all. I think as part of a system scan for audio... the USB chipset should be looked at as well as what the USB port the AI is plugged into has sharing with it. (irq, other usb clients, etc)
<sakrecoer> debcheckout, but if it is i canÃ¤t find the right url
 * sakrecoer is trying to use lintian
 * OvenWerks has to go.
<OvenWerks> bye now.
<sakrecoer> o/
<autumna> bye ovenwerks
<autumna> sakrecoer: I have one suggestion. write down everything as you figure out how to do
 * autumna is regretting not doing that last time zequence explained things
<autumna> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ubuntustudio-meta/+bug/1616175
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1616175 in ubuntustudio-meta (Ubuntu) "Ubuntu Studio Live CD build failing due to dependency loop" [Undecided,New]
<autumna> ok looking at this ross suggests blacklisting kactivities. did we try that? 
<sakrecoer> i donÃ¤t know..
<autumna> zequence: re the krita issue did we try blacklisting kactivities and see if we can get krita in that way as ross suggests? apologies if I am rehashing tried solutions. trying to figure out where the situation is. (I see that currently krita is off the metas - I think)
<autumna> (sakrecoer I think ross' suggestion was after zequence's changes to the meta, but yeah)
<sakrecoer> OvenWerks: i found this, so i guess the debian maintainer has moved on. https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=796817
<ubottu> Debian bug 796817 in font-manager "font-manager: version 0.7.2 is available" [Important,Open]
<sakrecoer> (filed last year aÃÂ¶most exacly
<sakrecoer> i'm reaching out to the maintainer Alessio
<sakrecoer> nothing to lose from a friendly reminder. at worst he'll tell me to get lost or never answer..
<sakrecoer> greetings eylul! :)
<eylul> hi sakrecoer :) 
<flocculant> sakrecoer: do I read stuff about font-manager correct - eg issue is it hanging? 
<flocculant> cos debian 814433 
<ubottu> Debian bug 814433 in font-manager "font-manager: If fonts-noto-cjk is installed, hangs on startup" [Important,Open] http://bugs.debian.org/814433
<flocculant> wandering off again 
<sakrecoer> flocculant: yeah, i saw that. was poked by Gunnar who wrote this: http://askubuntu.com/a/815354
<sakrecoer> doesn't change the fact that it is a very old version of a software that has seen lots of improvement
<sakrecoer> flocculant: in fact, the latest version has no problem with noto-cjk
<sakrecoer> but yeah, its' not hanging, just looks like it did for ~20 minutes. which will lead many to just assume it is broken
<sakrecoer> flocculant: but thank you anyways :) i'm still not very skilled so i appreciate you making sure i understand things allright
<sakrecoer> flocculant: oh i didn't read you correct. :D
<sakrecoer> but yes, it faints hanging when fonts-noto-cjk is installed.
<sakrecoer> long enough to make everyone think it hung
<flocculant> right
<sakrecoer> this is solved in the current version, so it would be nice to have that packaged, instead of asking people to remove cjk or install from ppa
<flocculant> :)
<OvenWerks> sakrecoer: I think the debian maitainer for font-manager may be just too busy, I have seen that name in too many places. I am sure debian would be happy for someone to take over. Or even do a repackage to current.
<OvenWerks> Hey all. Ardour 5.3 is out... 5.3 is what 5.1 should have been.
<OvenWerks> sakrecoer: looking at this page: https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/pkgreport.cgi?maint=alessio%40debian.org
<OvenWerks> font-manager is classed as: "Outstanding bugs -- Serious (policy violations or makes package unfit for release); Unclassified (4 bugs)"
<OvenWerks> So not lack of maintainer. shows as: font-manager: FTBFS: /usr/bin/ld: cannot find -lfreetype-lfreetype-lglib-2.0 and: font-manager: FTBFS: src/lib/fm-pyfontutils.c:28:22: fatal error: ft2build.h: No such file or directory
<OvenWerks> https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=805663
<ubottu> Debian bug 805663 in src:font-manager "font-manager: FTBFS: /usr/bin/ld: cannot find -lfreetype-lfreetype-lglib-2.0" [Serious,Open]
<OvenWerks> https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=830469
<ubottu> Debian bug 830469 in src:font-manager "font-manager: FTBFS: src/lib/fm-pyfontutils.c:28:22: fatal error: ft2build.h: No such file or directory" [Serious,Open]
#ubuntustudio-devel 2017-08-25
<DjMaoMix> hola buenos dias
#ubuntustudio-devel 2018-08-25
<eylul> Hey Eickmeyer
<Eickmeyer> eylul: Hey!
<eylul> working on pdf
<eylul> not done.
<eylul> :) we need a better system for this next time ;) but that's pretty much my only update
<eylul> just wanted to drop it now. I hope all is well?
 * OvenWerks has been playing with a huion tablet. It seems the kernel uclogic module is not being kept up...
<OvenWerks> The tablet does not work without adding the new uclogic even on 18.04. The module web page says this tablet (610pro) has been in the kernel since 3.17 or so, but obviously not.
<OvenWerks> This same driver covers 4 or 5 kinds of tablets, not just huion ... probably all of them that are no wacom, so I think it makes sense to make getting and installing the new module real easy.
<eylul> Ovenwerks: do you think you could document this as you go along?
<eylul> like step by step as you do them, what you tried
<eylul> what worked. what didn't what was the issue
<OvenWerks> I would like to do better than that
<eylul> so that we have detailed notes. if it won't be too much trouble.
<eylul> oh well if you can actually find time to fix it its even better. but we are already piling a lot of work on you :)
<OvenWerks> There is a *.deb package available from the github site.
<eylul> ah
<OvenWerks> It is not in debian though
<OvenWerks>  (or ubuntu)
<eylul> we can probably make a case for it getting into ubuntu even if we cannot to debian
<OvenWerks> They claim to be submitting patches to kernel upstream
<eylul> oh
<OvenWerks> The current uclogic module was written by the same people, I am just not sure how far along this stuff is.
<OvenWerks> I am even wondering if a change to udev rules would help
<Eickmeyer> Yeah, I really haven't touched anything on my plate in the past two weeks. This is what happens when your only co-worker in your department gets married and goes on his honeymoon.
<eylul> o.O
<Eickmeyer> Yeah. I think I bit-off more than I could chew with Plasma at the moment. I'm sure you saw the email.
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: I don't think it was ever the intent to release US-plasma this round... a spun iso would be nice though, even if we don't release it.
<Eickmeyer> Yeah. Good point.
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: so there are no freeze dates this cycle.
<OvenWerks> (for the plasma iso) as we are working on it for 1704 already.
<OvenWerks> *1904
<Eickmeyer> So, does that mean we can get things into the repos up to release date for 18.10?
<OvenWerks> nothing that affects any project that will release.
<OvenWerks>  But seeds and metas that only affect plasma we should be able to
<OvenWerks> Of course we would have to explain this each time we asked for something to be uploaded :)
<Eickmeyer> Okay, that clears things up.
<Eickmeyer> So, since you're both here, do we want to start our meeting in 35 minutes?
<OvenWerks> maybe even four of us
<Eickmeyer> Yeah, perhaps.
<OvenWerks> re mypaint and picopixel: there is not "permanent" :) but whatever is there at release is there for this cycle.
<OvenWerks> So whatever is working at time of freeze should be what we run with this cycle.
<Eickmeyer> Okay, that's good to know. I highly doubt MyPaint will be releasing anything based on their github development. It's glacially slow.
<OvenWerks> kind of like lmms...
<Eickmeyer> Yeah, but lmms isn't conflicting with anything. My problem with lmms is the lack of lv2 support.
<OvenWerks> I am told that git is a ways beyond release.
<Eickmeyer> re: mypaint or lmms?
<OvenWerks> I don't find lmms useful at all, but there are a lot of people who like to workthat way
<OvenWerks> lmms, there have been a lot of "internal releases"
<OvenWerks> not fit for public?
<Eickmeyer> Must be.
<OvenWerks> There are a lot of people who have submitted patches/fixes who are frustrated because they have been added but there is no release they can use.
<OvenWerks> I guess I could say the same about Ardour at this point :)
<Eickmeyer> Well, that's the problem I've been running into with Calf. There are releases, but getting them upstream to Debian and then synced to Ubuntu is a pain in the neck.
 * OvenWerks wonders which Calf plugin can't be replaced :)
<Eickmeyer> Well, here's the thing: the only reason Ardour has problems with Calf is because the calf-ladspa plugins are depricated and Debian has been refusing to remove it from their repos because of the lmms people. So, to work around that, Calf have decided to make them non-coinstallable since coinstalling the LV2 and Ladspa versions creates the conflict that causes Ardour to crash.
<Eickmeyer> Many of those bugs are fixed in 0.90.1 which is what I've been trying to push upstream.
<tsimonq2> Eickmeyer: How is it a pain in the neck? :)
<OvenWerks> there are other issues. Like the odd time the reverb puts out +1000 db peaks. None of the fixes deal with this.
<Eickmeyer> Where's the bug report on that? I haven't ever experienced it myself.
<Eickmeyer> Also, the release in November was a major release, so it may have been corrected with that. The one we have in our repos is over 3 years old and is very buggy.
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: when calf moved from sourceforge to where they are now, they did not import the old issues.
<Eickmeyer> Have you tried 0.90.x?
<OvenWerks> I personally have not, I do know some people who do though. but never mind, lots of people like the GUIs and when they work they are ok. animating levels is another problem area.
<OvenWerks> Most people don't do that though.
<OvenWerks> s/animating/automating/
<Eickmeyer> Well, a lot changed between 0.60.x and 0.90.1, and the fact that it isn't getting pushed upstream is infuriating and causing these opinions and lack of bug reports against them. Can't get eyes on stuff they don't know even exists.
<OvenWerks> getting the latest out would be good yes.
<Eickmeyer> I guess I'm frusterated because it wasn't this way with Fedora, but that's probably because they /are/ the upstream.
<Eickmeyer> Also, having to write MPs when I don't even know how or where.
<Eickmeyer> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Sat Aug 25 19:00:07 2018 UTC.  The chair is Eickmeyer. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
<Eickmeyer> #chair eylul OvenWerks captain-tux
<meetingology> Current chairs: Eickmeyer OvenWerks captain-tux eylul
<Eickmeyer> Well, let's get started with documenting this.
<Eickmeyer> eylul: You said PDF is nowhere?
<Eickmeyer> #topic Audio Handbook
<OvenWerks> maybe paste from the back scroll...
<Eickmeyer> <eylul> working on pdf
<Eickmeyer> <eylul> not done.
<Eickmeyer> <eylul> :) we need a better system for this next time ;) but that's pretty much my only update
<Eickmeyer> If there was only a way to change the page source of the markdown directly to HTML for printing or something.
<Eickmeyer> Unfortunately, that wiki engine's markdown isn't exactly standard.
<Eickmeyer> Anything to add? Anybody?
<Eickmeyer> Okay, moving on...
<Eickmeyer> #topic ubuntustudio-plasma
<Eickmeyer> Pretty sure this is on hold until we've got an iso spun.
<OvenWerks> yes
<Eickmeyer> Okay.
<OvenWerks>  While it would be possible to add more there is no way of testing it.
<Eickmeyer> #info On hold until iso can be spun from a seed
<Eickmeyer> Okay. Moving on...
<Eickmeyer> #topic website
<Eickmeyer> I've got nothing to report on this. Life has been getting in the way, and since we have a working website now, it's not a huge priority. I'd rather spend energy on other things like packaging.
<Eickmeyer> #topic Packaging
<Eickmeyer> I really want to get Cadence done in time for 18.10 for Catia alone. I fear I might not get -welcome or -boutique done.
<OvenWerks> that sounds reasonable
<Eickmeyer> Yeah. Patchage needs to be dropped, but we can't do that without a suitable replacement like Catia.
<OvenWerks> welcome/boutique are longterm objuctives I think
<Eickmeyer> Agreed.
<Eickmeyer> #agreed Welcome and Boutique are long term objectives
<Eickmeyer> Definitely something for 20.04 at the latest.
<OvenWerks> right
<Eickmeyer> Anyhow...
<OvenWerks> hopefully testing before then.
<Eickmeyer> #topic PikoPixel
<Eickmeyer> We should hold a vote on this.
<Eickmeyer> #vote include PikoPixel in Ubuntu Studio seed
<meetingology> Please vote on: include PikoPixel in Ubuntu Studio seed
<meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (for private voting, private message me with 'vote +1/-1/+0 #channelname)
<Eickmeyer> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from Eickmeyer
<OvenWerks> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from OvenWerks
<Eickmeyer> eylul? captain-tux?
<captain-tux> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from captain-tux
<Eickmeyer> I'm pretty sure eylul is for this too.
<Eickmeyer> Based on a previous email.
<Eickmeyer> #endvote
<meetingology> Voting ended on: include PikoPixel in Ubuntu Studio seed
<meetingology> Votes for:3 Votes against:0 Abstentions:0
<meetingology> Motion carried
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: If you wouldn't mind adding that to the seed?
<OvenWerks> ok
<Eickmeyer> #action OvenWerks to add PikoPixel to the Ubuntu Studio seed starting with 18.10
<meetingology> ACTION: OvenWerks to add PikoPixel to the Ubuntu Studio seed starting with 18.10
<Eickmeyer> I'll go ahead and send an email to the upstream developer to congratulate them.
<Eickmeyer> #action Eickmeyer to notify upstream
<meetingology> ACTION: Eickmeyer to notify upstream
<Eickmeyer> #topic Additional Items
<Eickmeyer> Okay, this one wasn't on the email, but I need to figure out what everyone is working on.
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: I'm guessing you're whittling away at Plasma?
<Eickmeyer> #subtopic Current Assignments
<OvenWerks> no waiting for an iso on that. Looking at adding tablets setup to controls.
<Eickmeyer> Okay.
<Eickmeyer> #action OvenWerks is adding tablets setup to -controls
<meetingology> ACTION: OvenWerks is adding tablets setup to -controls
<OvenWerks> (mostly summer hollidays this past while :)
<Eickmeyer> captain-tux: Do you have anything you're working on?
<Eickmeyer> eylul: Same
<Eickmeyer> Rather, same question. I know you're working on the PDF. I have an idea that might help, but we'll see.
<Eickmeyer> #action Eickmeyer still working on Cadence, -welcome, -boutique.
<meetingology> ACTION: Eickmeyer still working on Cadence, -welcome, -boutique.
<captain-tux> Not specifically, I've had a look at Mastodon, but have been a little stressed out the last weeks, so I haven't had time for anything else..
<Eickmeyer> captain-tux: Understood.
<Eickmeyer> At least you're participating. :)
<captain-tux> That was nice. :D
<Eickmeyer> Which brings us to our most difficult topic, one that I've been avoiding, but it needs to come up.
<Eickmeyer> krytarik: What does your current contribution to Ubuntu Studio look like these days?
<krytarik> Nil.
<krytarik> Well, except from handling the mailing lists, of course.
<Eickmeyer> Well, that's something. However, I'm kindof noticing a pattern here, and other than that, I'm not any contribution, and this is the most I've seen you participate in these meetings.
<Eickmeyer> *I'm not seeing any contribution
<krytarik> So what?
<Eickmeyer> The difficult question: Are you interested in being on this team still? I'm honestly just concerned.
<krytarik> I'm still willing to fill the posts I've got, yes.
<Eickmeyer> By that you mean managing the mailing list and this IRC channel?
<krytarik> Pretty much, yes.
<Eickmeyer> I see no problem with that. :)
<Eickmeyer> #action krytarik to reamain IRC channel admin and Mailing List admin.
<meetingology> ACTION: krytarik to reamain IRC channel admin and Mailing List admin.
<Eickmeyer> I just want to make sure we're moving forward and nothing is holding us back. I realize we've had a lot of burnout over the years, and if that means taking a break from stuff, then so be it.
<Eickmeyer> Honestly, I'm getting burnt--out on a lot of the buraucracy I'm seeing since I'm having to learn how to do stuff by doing it wrong, being corrected, then doing it right.
<Eickmeyer> But, that's just how I feel.
<Eickmeyer> Still plowing forward.
<OvenWerks> you are doing well... I normally do things wrong several times first
<Eickmeyer> I guess the issue is the bottleneck at the MOTU and Debian levels. I need to apply for membership and MOTU in order to get this ship out of drydock and sailing.
<Eickmeyer> Anyhow, that's all I've got.
<Eickmeyer> Anybody have anything else for the meeting?
<OvenWerks> I have nothing more.
<Eickmeyer> Cool.
<Eickmeyer> Motion to end meeting?
<OvenWerks> so moved
<Eickmeyer> #endmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting ended Sat Aug 25 19:33:23 2018 UTC.  
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntustudio-devel/2018/ubuntustudio-devel.2018-08-25-19.00.moin.txt
<Eickmeyer> I'll get the minutes out sometime in the next couple days. Like I said, things are busy.
<Eickmeyer> I think 33 minutes is a new record for us.
<captain-tux> No. Just thanks for managing everything around here! 
<Eickmeyer> Thanks, captain-tux! I'm doing my best. We have a great team, and my vision is to make sure we're moving forward and nothing and nobody is holding us back.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2018-08-26
<Eickmeyer> krytarik, OvenWerks, eylul: Just looking for an opinion. We have a person on the facebook page that posts every day at the same time of day posts which are links to linux-related articles but usually aren't Studio related in scope or otherwise. 
<Eickmeyer> All of the articles appear to be to his own website, which means he's simply just driving traffic, and the fact that it is the same time of day means its automated. In my book, that's spam. Should I remove him?
<krytarik> I'd agree, yes.
<Eickmeyer> krytarik: Thanks. Was mostly looking for your opinion. :)
<eylul> +1
<Eickmeyer> Okay, removed and blocked, and posted a friendly warning.
<Eickmeyer> I had muted him before for 7 days, but after the mute was over he persisted.
<krytarik> Oh, it would appear the Google+ situation never got resolved yet?
#ubuntustudio-devel 2019-08-20
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks, teward: raysession is in eoan, and I just got done updating the seed replacing gladish (which pulls-in all of the LADI tools). As far as I am concerned, Ubuntu Studio is, for the first time in a long time, ready for FF prior to FF.
<teward> nice
<OvenWerks> \o/
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: when will it be in the iso?
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: does that mean the metas have been rebuilt as well?
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: Yes. I'm guessing tomorrow's ISO.
<Eickmeyer> I rebuilt the metas. Looks like gimp-ufraw is no longer included, so that'll get noted in the release notes.
<OvenWerks> how important is gimp-ufraw? what does it do?
<Eickmeyer> It allows GIMP to use ufraw as a plugin. It's been removed from ufraw, it was very buggy.
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: ^
<OvenWerks> sounds reasonable.
<teward> Eickmeyer: sounds like it wasn't suitable to have around if it was that buggy :P
<Eickmeyer> teward: Exactly. I never used it, but I have seen a number of bug reports.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2019-08-22
<Eickmeyer> FYI: I'm going to be out of town this week on a vacation. I might be available, but not as much as usual.
<Eickmeyer> This week as in today through next Wednesday.
<cjoke> Cheers! Happy hollidays! :) 
#ubuntustudio-devel 2019-08-23
<Sax> Hi, I suggest to make a repository with (half)professional media software only and throw out the kiddy stuff. For audio you need rosegarden, ubstudio is the only distribution with the old version 18. For video you need kdenlive and cinelerra, not more. If you want to install software you have first to install the installer, costs me half an hour to
<Sax>  find out how to do, for this I got libreoffice, the last thing I need in a media distri. The distri is over 2GByte and includes a lot of old stuff that must first be updated. I suggest to make a minimal system. Thanks in advance
<Eickmeyer> That was rude.
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: no worries
<OvenWerks> it is either why isn't this application included or why all this stuff
<Eickmeyer> Forgetting the fact that the Ubiquity plugin lets you pick and choose what to install.
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: it sounds like they were using installer
<Eickmeyer> I didn't read that into it. Looked like (with the libreoffice implcation) that they were using the ISO.
<Eickmeyer> But, you could be right. Thing is the "installer" could also mean Ubiquity.
<OvenWerks> He complains about having to install the installer and taking a half hour
<OvenWerks> Anyway people with ideas and no help or discusion are not helpful
<Eickmeyer> Exactly.
<OvenWerks> the old my way or the highway.... 
<Eickmeyer> This goes under E:Wishlist/WontFix
<OvenWerks> no bug doesn't need that even :)
<studiobot> <teward001> *Wishlist/Invalid*  *shot*
<studiobot> <teward001> :P
<OvenWerks> Though adding the ability to choose within metas is on the roadmap... wasn't there someone who wanted to do some programing?
<Eickmeyer> Yes. cjoke?
<Eickmeyer> @teward001: Indeed.
 * OvenWerks is dyslexic and has trouble with remebering such thngs
<OvenWerks> but I would welcome someone taking that project over and converting to python as well as adding that functionality
<Eickmeyer> Ah, it was dianmos, who isn't here right now.
<Eickmeyer> I suppose I could throw it in a blog post and see who bites.
<OvenWerks> or even the mail list
<cjoke> Eickmeyer: < Eickmeyer> FYI: I'm going to be out of town this week on a vacation. I might be available, but not as much as usual.
<cjoke> =)
<Eickmeyer> cjoke: 1) I can still check-in from time-to-time, and 2) I'm a volunteer just like everyone else; this isn't my real job.
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: my first (of three) cheap (under $3) usb audio devices. It is the top of the range at $3something with shipping included
<OvenWerks> it has mutes and levels built in
<OvenWerks> it can pretend to be up to 7.1 which it would convert to stereo (somehow)
<Eickmeyer> Oh, cool. I just got a $23 behringer XLR2USB device, which can only do 44.1k or 48k, but it's just like a lot of other devices people have been having issues with, but it works perfectly in my testing.
<OvenWerks> My hope was that it would be single sample rate that I could play with but it has both 44k1 and 48k so no luck there
<OvenWerks> So I will wait for the two under 1$ devices I ordered and hope one of them is worse :)
<OvenWerks> Oh and now there is a dog leash that can recharge your phone....
<OvenWerks> my new USB audio if has the insiring name of "Device"
<OvenWerks> I guess that is only slightly worse than my ART DualTubePree which is called "CODEC"
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: I guess that you do not have access to the XLR2USB device while on vacation?
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: I do have it. It's form factor is that of a cable.
<Eickmeyer> It uses a C-Media chipset.
<OvenWerks> could yu check in /proc/asound/<device>/stream0 to see what it says? maybe pastebinit?
<Eickmeyer> Sure, hang on...
<OvenWerks> probably cat /proc/asound/card*/stream* |pastebinit
<OvenWerks> it seems the stream0 file is unique to USB cards
<Eickmeyer> https://paste.ubuntu.com/p/fGbwDX93Kc/
<OvenWerks> thanks
<OvenWerks> identical to this one
<Eickmeyer> Probably. C-Media is a cheap chipset.
<OvenWerks> I was thinking I could use that file to find out what sample rates a device uses, but I have now realized that I use the zita-ajbridge code for internal devices too which do not have that file.
<OvenWerks> once the device is in use, there are other files that give SR but I need that info before I connect
<cjoke> Eickmeyer: duh, I think you did miss my intentions, I just granted you happy holliday, nothing else, soz. <3
<cjoke> Im just straight forward, no fear kinda guy, old man in fact :) 
#ubuntustudio-devel 2019-08-24
<Eickmeyer> cjoke: No worries. :)
<cjoke> Eickmeyer: ^ :) 
#ubuntustudio-devel 2020-08-18
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer[kde]: re https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/1892020
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1892020 in ubuntustudio-default-settings (Ubuntu) "ubuntustudio-default-settings must not ship python2 scripts" [Critical,New]
<OvenWerks> that code is not used any more. It is a starter for xchat which we don't even ship. (isn't even a depend I guess)
<OvenWerks> I can remove the two files, but so far as I know you would have to mess with it anyway to release it.
<Eickmeyer> I'll just do it.
<OvenWerks> so usr/lib and all it's contents can just go
<OvenWerks> oh, no it can't
<OvenWerks> usr/lib/ubuntustudio can go.
<OvenWerks> systemd needs to remain.
<Eickmeyer> Yeah, I knew that. The deed is done.
<OvenWerks> ubuntustudio-session.target looks outdated as well
<OvenWerks> (xfce4-session.service?
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer[kde]: did you remove the python2 from depends?
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer[kde]: doesn't look like it
<Eickmeyer> I can still do that.
<Eickmeyer> Sorry, having some personal battles with trebmuh. He's a jerk.
<Eickmeyer> It was a kick, not a ban.
<Eickmeyer> Just tired of him lurking in this channel, never participating, and saying how much he hates Ubuntu elsewhere.
<Eickmeyer> His unkindness is a CoC violation, so that's the reason he was kicked, just so everyone knows.
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: Fixes pushed.
<Eickmeyer> uploaded even.
<OvenWerks> https://code.launchpad.net/~ubuntustudio-dev/ubuntustudio-default-settings/+git/ubuntustudio-default-settings/+ref/master doesn't see to show it.
<Eickmeyer> Well, uploaded to the archive.
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: Ok, pushed now.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2020-08-19
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: it just keeps getting better: https://lists.linuxaudio.org/archives/linux-audio-user/2020-August/113306.html
<Eickmeyer> Wim Taymans is the guy behind pipewire.
<OvenWerks> yes
<OvenWerks> but not the guy behind the new alsa module.
<OvenWerks> They are all out by 8
<Eickmeyer> But, a non 2-power not working for an internal sound card??????
<OvenWerks> That seems like a bug
<OvenWerks> some are higher and some are lower
<Eickmeyer> Yeah. That doesn't seem right at all.
<OvenWerks> but they are all "attached" to power of 2 sizes
<Eickmeyer> I hope falktx is aware of this. I think there's some weird kernel regression causing all of these Jack issues.
<Eickmeyer> He seems to think the issue in Fedora is libc related.
<OvenWerks> I think there are a number of applications and plugins that expect power of 2 buffer size or crash
<OvenWerks> I wonder if there is a way to read the media clock directly and use that to run the dummy back end or generate ones own irq
<OvenWerks> better to fix the bug
<Eickmeyer> yep.
<Eickmeyer> Easier to fix the bug in Jack than libc or the kernel, tbh.
 * OvenWerks is glad his family did not get to camping yet. Looks like rain for 3 days.
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer:  it is the alsa module that needs fixed
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: Gotcha.
<OvenWerks> The same HW did work with the old module
#ubuntustudio-devel 2020-08-21
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: FYI, I may be out of contact for some days... 
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: Same.
