#ubuntu-mobile 2007-08-20
* Starting logfile irclogs/ubuntu-mobile.log
<mdz> Mithrandir: ubuntu-meta doesn't seem to have been updated for lpia in a long time. do you know what's wrong?
<Mithrandir> nobody has uploaded it lately, I would suspect?
<Mithrandir> hm, no, Riddell uploaded it last week.
<mdz> Mithrandir: it's at 1.58, while everywhere else is 1.64
<Mithrandir> probably just not built lately
<Mithrandir> I'll fix it
<mdz> it's been 'needs building' for 3 days despite a very high score
<Mithrandir> building it now.
<mdz> Mithrandir: how do you force it?
<Mithrandir> un-manual the buildd.
<Mithrandir> I've trickled it through
<Mithrandir> iirc, they're on manual since we're now ready to drop the hacked apt that does i386+lpia
<Mithrandir> once infinity rebuilds the chroots with that unheld, we'll put them on auto again.
<Mithrandir> and he said he'll do that today.
<agoliveira> No, it was based on hildon 1.x and 2.x and 3 has changes on headers, functions, etc, so it needs a few changes on the code. Nothing big tough.
<agoliveira> Hmmm... abiword and gnumeric have hildon support upstream.
<CharliefJohnson> agoliveira: What city in Brazil are you in ??  
<agoliveira> CharliefJohnson: Hi. I'm in Joinville. Why?
<CharliefJohnson> agoliveira: What's the timezone?  (That is why I was asking?)
<agoliveira> CharliefJohnson: Almost all the country uses GMT-3 when not on DST.
<agoliveira> CharliefJohnson: And that's my case, of course. Right now it's 12:50.
<CharliefJohnson> So you're ahead of us hear in Portland by 4 hours.
* agoliveira is happy that tasks seems to work :) Now, backtrack and properly packaging and testing...
* agoliveira still thinks that Pimlico's names should be a little less generic...
* agoliveira is being reminded how many nested dependencies hildon has...
<kylem> win 25
<agoliveira> ?
<kylem> i was changing windows.
<mjg59> agoliveira: Has the dates package been uploaded yet?
<mjg59> Ah, yes
<mjg59> Sweet
<agoliveira> mjg59: Are you checking lpia arch?
<mjg59> agoliveira: Source is the same for all archs
<agoliveira> Ok, just to wanr about the conditional compilation.
<mjg59> Yeah, spotted that
<mjg59> Just wanted to use the same code :)
<mjg59> dates has no hildon support as yet, btw
<agoliveira> Yes, they are exactly the the
<mjg59> But I'll do contacts now, if that suits?
<agoliveira> It will be fine.
<agoliveira> BTW, dates does have hildon. Contacts, does not.
<mjg59> Ergh.
<mjg59> Sorry. Contacts has no hildon support as yet. Tasks does.
<mjg59> I'll do tasks now, if that suits? :)
<mjg59> Need to pay more attention to which directory I'm in
<agoliveira> mjg59: I already did tasks. I'm taking care of the dependencies.
<mjg59> Ok.
<mjg59> In that case I'll handle Haze.
<agoliveira> Haze?
<mjg59> Telepathy->libpurple bridge
<agoliveira> Oh
<kwwii_> agoliveira: so, I got my Q1 today and i have a few questions
<kwwii_> agoliveira: got time for me to bother you? :-)
<agoliveira> kwwii_: Hi. I was about to leave but I can spare a few minutes, no problem.
<kwwii_> agoliveira: no worries, I can bug you tomorrow as well
<agoliveira> No problem at all, go ahead
<kwwii_> one quick question though: does the SD card reader work?
<kwwii_> and does USB work?
<agoliveira> USB, yes, SD, didn't try
<kwwii_> so I have to mount the device in a terminal by hand?
<agoliveira> You mean like a USB drive?
<agoliveira> Yes, should work.
<kwwii_> yes
<kwwii_> tomorrow I would like to talk to you about how I can tweak the artwork locally on my laptop and then build a usable/testable system for the Q1
<kwwii_> the image-builder seems to work much better than the lpia stuff but I do not know how to edit the source in that method
<agoliveira> kwwii_: No problem.
<kwwii_> cool, have a nice evening :-)
<agoliveira> kwwii_: You too.
<kwwii_> I have an evening of playing around with a nifty device  ;-)
<agoliveira> kwwii_: Yes, it is pretty cool. Too bad a have to keep installing image after image :)
<kwwii_> yeah, that was one of my next questions: how often do I need to update the image ;-)
<kwwii_> I assume all the time
<agoliveira> About that
<agoliveira> I didn't do it today yet but I'm downloading it right now.
<kwwii_> so now is the time when it would help me most to be in one room with you guys :p
<kwwii_> a few months too late
#ubuntu-mobile 2007-08-21
* Starting logfile irclogs/ubuntu-mobile.log
<Mithrandir> derjoerg: don't ask to ask; just ask your question.
<derjoerg> OK, I tried to install (PXE) 7.04 on an embedded system with AMD Geode LX processor and a CF-card (PRIMARY SLAVE). The installation went well and I had the following partitions /dev/hdb1 - root-filesystem and /dev/hdb5 as swap. When I reboot the system GRUB is displayed (console) and the loading-process starts, but at the end I only see "ALERT! /dev/hdb1 does not exist. Dropping a shell!" and a BusyBox starts. When I start the rescue-mode over PXE
<derjoerg> -card as /dev/hdb1 and make a chroot to it.
<derjoerg> So I think, the installer and the rescue-system loads specific modules, which the "normal" boot doesn't
<derjoerg> Does anybody have an idea, which module(s) I can load (/etc/modules) so that I can correctly use ubuntu?
<derjoerg> Nobody an idea, which ide-modules are loaded during installation?
<Mithrandir> hm, unsure.  You might have more luck in #ubuntu-installer
<derjoerg> Mithrandir: Ok, thanks :-(
<K3nto> is anybody available to help me out with obex?
<amitk_> K3nto: This channel is for ubuntu for mobile devices such as tablet PCs, MIDs, UMPCs; not for ubuntu with mobile phones. Try #ubuntu
<mdz> Mithrandir: xulrunner needs building on lpia.  are we still on manual for some reason?
<mdz> derjoerg: I believe the installer explicitly loads some modules which are expected to be loaded automatically during boot.  the best place to take your problem is to the kernel team (and file a bug report on linux-source-2.6.20 with lspci)
<Mithrandir> mdz: no, we're on full auto
<Mithrandir> build rescored, it'll be built next
<mdz> Mithrandir: once that's built, ubuntu-mobile should be installable on lpia again
<Mithrandir> except it ftbfs
<Mithrandir> I'll poke it
<doko> mdz: why does mobile need xulrunner? Shouldn't it use midbrowser?
<Mithrandir> doko: gtkmozembed
<doko> Mithrandir: firefox-dev does provide that
<mdz> doko: ->asac, I'm just looking at what's installable
<mdz> doko: mobile-basic-flash depends on libxul0d
<mdz> which is from xulrunner
<mdz> and is independent of midbrowser
<mdz> http://launchpadlibrarian.net/8915774/buildlog_ubuntu-gutsy-lpia.xulrunner_1.8.1.4-2ubuntu2_FAILEDTOBUILD.txt.gz
<mdz> (when did we start using launchpadlibrarian.net?)
<Mithrandir> been a while
<mdz> js.o: In function `GetLine':
<mdz> /usr/bin/ld: js: hidden symbol `readline' isn't defined
<mdz> /usr/bin/ld: final link failed: Nonrepresentable section on output
<Mithrandir> needs older gcc for now
<doko> that is fixed with the current midbrowser build (currently building). mobile-basic-flash should b-d on that
<asac> doko: mobile-basic-flash needs some work in order to run with midbrowser (or firefox) as its just a panel applet (and thus cannot tweak LD_LIBRARY_PATH) ... i talked to intel about that, but iirc nobody is really working on that atm
<asac> given that cwong in on holiday
<doko> asac: hmm, so apply the same fix to xulrunner (and firefox) as we did for mibrowser?
<Mithrandir> I'm doing a test build of that now.
<asac> doko: well i would hate to do that as i actually would like to give a reason to do the work needed to make that work happen ... but if its a blocker right now we can do that.
<asac> Mithrandir: take the patch out of midbrowser
<asac> force-no-pragma-visibility-for-gcc-4.2_4.3
<asac> ok lunch
<Mithrandir> asac: ok, that's the right fix?
<Mithrandir> asac: rather than using gcc 4.1?
<asac> yes
<Mithrandir> ok, cheers.
<kyleN> Hi Bob
<Mithrandir> hi kyle, bob
<kyleN> Hi Mithrandir
<kwwii_> hi bob, kyle, tollef
<kyleN> good morning, at least from my perspective ;)
<kyleN> kwii, I am taking a look at your comments. thx.
<kyleN> kwwii, do you know whether slicer includes extracted file distribution?
<kyleN> and, can you describe more the tool you proposed to make the "metatheme"?
<doko> asac, Mithrandir: midbrowser did scucessfully build.
<asac> re
<asac> doko: there is something wierd going on ... 
<asac> doko: http://launchpadlibrarian.net/8881777/buildlog_ubuntu-gutsy-i386.midbrowser_0.1.6a-0ubuntu3_FULLYBUILT.txt.gz
<asac> search for -fvisibility
<asac> there not a single match
<asac> while http://launchpadlibrarian.net/8916005/buildlog_ubuntu-gutsy-lpia.midbrowser_0.1.6a-0ubuntu3_FULLYBUILT.txt.gz ... is built as expected
<doko> hmm ...
<doko> looking at PR26905
<doko> checking For gcc visibility bug with class-level attributes (GCC bug 26905)... yes
<doko> checking For x86_64 gcc visibility bug with builtins (GCC bug 20297)... no
<asac> crazy
<asac> apparentyl our gcc is only fixed on lpia?
<doko> any reason why this fails? that was fixed one year ago and is in the 4.2 branch
<doko> asac: yes, let me look at 4.1, fc does have a backport to 4.1
<asac> hmm ... we have gcc-4.1 everywhere expect on lpia right?
<doko> yes
<asac> i think it would be worth to have it as firefox should be a lot faster with visibility hidden according to bsmegdberg
<kwwii> kyleN: I assume that at some point in the build process the sliced files are automatically copied to the right place
<kyleN> that would make it hard for the designer to check his work in situ as he goes, wouldn't it? maybe we could add a makefile for that
<kwwii> kyleN: I think that some graphical client which allows one to pick the template file(s) and other parts ...it could perhaps show some kind of preview as well
<kwwii> kyleN: actually, I guess that some makefile is what copies the pics to the right place now
<kyleN> kwwii, do you agree that a thrid party designer would want to copy his files into a working target? or is that beyond their scope?
<kyleN> hi horace
<kwwii> kyleN: I think that is the only real way to test it
<horaceli> hi, kyleN
<horaceli> is bspencer here?
<bspencer> horaceli: hello
<kwwii> one hard thing about doing this artwork is the resolution of the devices...just looking at the pics on a normal computer is not enough
<horaceli> hi, kwwii.
* bspencer rubs his eyes
<kwwii> hi horaceli
<kwwii> morning bob
<kyleN> if they run xypher and a target from image-cretor, is that enough for the artist to check his work?
<kwwii> kyleN: for some test it would be enough, but in the end it needs to be done on a device I think
<bspencer> kyleN: mostly, except for color depth issues on the device I'd guess
<kwwii> bspencer: the size (dpi) is important too
<kyleN> hmm, if they are actually developing a theme for a real device, maybe they can create a real image with image creator and boot the device with it to check their artwoork
<kwwii> kyleN: that is exactly how I am doing it now
<bspencer> kwwii: you got a Q1 finally?
<kyleN> when I launch xypher, I set the dpi...
<kwwii> bspencer: yepp, arrived yesterday
<kwwii> so I stayed up late last night tweaking things :-)
<kwwii> and in doing so broke two of my toes :p
<kyleN> lol
<bspencer> really?
<horaceli> should the artwork support different resolutions?
<kyleN> horace, I don't think so 
<bspencer> I do  :)
<kwwii> yes, it has to
<kyleN> because the theme would be for a specific device with a known resolution
<kwwii> every device might have a different resolution
<bspencer> not true.  Each device might have variable res.  besides orientation 
<kyleN> ok.
<bspencer> (not true to Kyle)
<horaceli> yep, like screen rotation.
<bspencer> and it would also be nice for a theme to span multiple devices if possible
<kwwii> zooming, when we have that might be a problem as well
<kwwii> bspencer: I am guessing that at least certain parts will be reused from device to device
<bspencer> mm, not sure how zooming would work
<bspencer> so how does a theme handle multiple res ?
<bspencer> all graphics have to be stretchable in the right direction
<kwwii> right, scalable or tile-able, depending on the situation
<doko> asac: what's the problem jsut explicitely building with 4.2? I really don't want a 1800 line backport ...
<bspencer> so I don't have an agenda for our theme chat.  What should we cover, and how to proceed.
<kyleN> I would like to cover certain things...
<kyleN> ;)
<kwwii> I guess we should talk about the best formats to use, and roughly what we need to change
<horaceli> and the schedule to create a first UME theme package.
<horaceli> as a sample?
<kwwii> horaceli: yes, good point
<kyleN> that's good, horaceli
<horaceli> I am happy everyone cares about this. :-)
<asac> doko: ... i am unsure if its ok to build firefox with not-default gcc
<kyleN> I think some of my topics from my emails should be discussed
<doko> asac: why?
<kyleN> for example: what's the expecation for themeing an app for ume
<kyleN> what's the expectation for the thrid party theme designer (can he test his theme)
<kwwii> well, until we have some mechanism to switch themes the only way to test it is going to be to replace pics and build an image
<asac> doko: so its ok? (firefox shouldn't have any problems from what i see)
<bspencer> test:  replace pics and restart Xephyr
<kyleN> kwwii, yes, so why not give him the licer and a makfile?
<horaceli> kyleN, I am not sure if we will cover every app theme. like we may cover some built-in apps.
<kyleN> (darn typos)
<kwwii> kyleN: sure, the slicer is there already (alhtough it needs work)
<bspencer> ok.  let's talk about that first:  what needs to be done with the tools
<kyleN> can a designer be expected to use slicer? is it too hard?
<horaceli> but for other third-party applications, they might create their own theme, right?
<bspencer> horace and I could work on the tools, while Ken works on the pics
<kwwii> kyleN: right now it is probably too hard
<horaceli> kyleN, it is not too hard.
<kyleN> if slicer is too hard,maybe we need to make it esaier?
<kyleN> sorry, I misunderstood...
<horaceli> and actually designers could take a sample Makefile ans just create their artwork.
<kwwii> horaceli: yeah, third party apps might add their own stuff like icons, splash screen images, and special artwork for special widgets, etc.
<horaceli> and use the Makefile to do slicing.
<doko> asac: it's a stable release (4.2.1), so the only thing that can go wrong are packages b-d on firefox-dev and using the default gcc. we should see these build failures easily. otoh changing the compiler at this point of time?
<kwwii> horaceli: sure, just changing the existing artwork is easy - edit the pic
<kwwii> horaceli: but changing sizes or such is a bit harder
<horaceli> kwwii. yep. that could be
<bspencer> how can we update slicer to handle multiple res ?
<horaceli> the picture size and position in template could be configurable in layout config file.
<bspencer> or is that just a matter of making the right graphics?
<horaceli> and for slicer tool, I read its source code, it should just read the information from the config file, and then slice the template
<kwwii_> bspencer: the only way I know to do that would be to do it all in svg and then export to different sizes (although that will not always work right either)
<horaceli> so if some picture size and postion changed, updating the layout file should be ok.
<asac> doko: probably not before tribe-5 :) ... no seriously, I will think about it ... but I think we should just stick to no use visibility hidden for gutsy
<bspencer> kwwii_ so after the graphics have been sliced there will exist muliple versions of graphics in the "theme" directory for each resolution posibility?
<bspencer> currently Hildon can inteligently stretch the panel graphics by duplicating them
<bspencer> so if the graphics are dithered in the right direction it looks nice
<horaceli> bspencer, that should be icon theme. as far as I know, hildon theme image only support single resolution.
<kwwii_> bspencer: we could come pretty close to that - as long as the svg's are pretty simple and can be rendered with something running on the build server and/or one exported pics beforehand for every size
<bspencer> perhaps we should organize the pieces of a theme that will be resized in a certain section of the template.png so artists know they will be stretched.
<kyleN> different version of each image file for each resolution. there ren't that many possible resolutions adn it it known at build time what they are
<kwwii_> bspencer: yeah, it would help to know which pieces are stretched, which ones tiled, etc
<kwwii_> kyleN: agreed
<kyleN> is stretching going to look good enough for a serious UME product?
<doko> asac: make it conditional for lpia/other
<kwwii> kyleN: that was my worry as well
<kwwii> for some thing it will work for others not
<bspencer> kyleN:  by stretching I meant dupllicating a graphic, not really stretching it
<kwwii> ok, I call that tiling :-)
<kyleN> I think for a real product they would know the resolutions they would need in advance and be willing to create all needed graphics that fit well
<kwwii> one just has to be sure that the pic in question is suitable to be tiled
<kyleN> and, that the list of app would be known in advance too
<bspencer> the most complex scenario is a device has 2 resolutions, with two orientations for each (vert and horiz).  1024x600 and 800x480, for example.
<kwwii> kyleN: what about third party apps that are installed afterwards?
<kyleN> that's up to the user, whether themeing extends to that, well, that's extra credit
<kyleN> the thing that is needed is coherent theme of everythign at build time
<kyleN> and, a clear 'theme api" for apps: this is how you UMEize the app to fit themeing
<kwwii> right, as well as having the infrastructure available for third party apps to put their pics in a decent location
<kwwii> exactly
<bspencer> it'd be nice to have a doc that explained this
<bspencer> so what has to be changed in the slicer?
<kyleN> so, should we define the tools and procedure from the point of view of a designer an on the app theme api?
<kwwii> yes, we should write docs while creating the first themes
<kwwii> bspencer: nothing more than sizes and locations
<bspencer> how can we figure out what are all the graphics needed for a theme?
<kwwii> bspencer: the first revisions will probably just use the same stuff we have now I guess, and we will see where we need to change things after that
<horaceli> yep, then tools might be reusable. we could just change the layout file.
<kwwii> bspencer: by looking at what each pic does after being cut up
<bspencer> k
<kyleN> there's a lot to do
<kwwii> bspencer: and by making a list of other graphics used and their purpose which are not included in the template
<bspencer> horaceli: something I've noticed is that some apps show a border around the window, some do not
<kwwii> kyleN: no doubt :-)
<kyleN> bspencer, yes a lit of what is in the template.
<horaceli> bspencer, I should remove the border by default.
<kyleN> for example: NOT boot splash images?
<bspencer> in general our apps are currently not too well behaved or consistent
<horaceli> but for toolbar widget, its theme still has border now
<kwwii> bspencer: I think that is how nokia showed the difference between windows and pop-ups
<bspencer> kwwii: I think it is ok to have a border, but our apps are mixed
<kwwii> ouch
<bspencer> and the ones with borders are ugly (only right and bottom border)
<bspencer> so it is a framework issue
<bspencer> we'll also have headaches if we deviate too much from Hildon because we'll be merging with them.  So we should think about how our changes can be accepted by the Hildon project
<kyleN> if its windows and popups, isn't that controlled by matchbox theme?
<horaceli> I think currrently one possible way to tell what images are used in theme is to read through the gtkrc, and gtkrc.maemo-af-desktop as well as matchbox theme.xml
<kyleN> we shouldn't deviate from hildon unless necessary, but how much of theming is iIN hildon anyway?
<kyleN> i would like to propose that themeing CAN include gtk images, but that is extra credit
<kwwii> bspencer: I'll ask tigert to look in on this so we can work out issues like that, or at least have a good starting point to discuss it with others
<kyleN> that the template.png MUST include all desktop specific images and icons and CAN optionally iknclude gtk images
<bspencer> kyleN:  all the references to the graphics is in the Hildon-desktop code
<bspencer> so we have to use the same graphics names, or update the Hildon code
<kwwii> horaceli: yeah, but that gtkrc stuff is nasty
<kyleN> bspencer, so your "mb_" image names are hard coded in hildon?
<kwwii> kyleN: I am really against including icons in the template
<horaceli> bspencer, I think graphics names are used in gtkrc file.
<horaceli> and in Hildon code, it just set style name or something.
<kwwii> horaceli: right, that is how I understood it as well
<bspencer> horaceli: yeah
<kyleN> kwwii, why against desktop-specific icons in the template?
<horaceli> kwwii, yes, you are right. I will try tomorrow to see if I could write a script to collect the png list in gtkrc.
<bspencer> I didn't mean the file name -- just that the theme file matched a value in code.  If that file isn't there it is a problem.
<kyleN> the gtkrc files used to be named in the xinitrc file
<kwwii> kyleN: because updating them is harder
<kyleN> why is it harder?
<bspencer> I don't see icons in the current themes
<kwwii> because the existing icon themes are not in that format
<kwwii> bspencer: they are not, now (and I'd like to keep it that way)
<kwwii> so everytime a theme changes one has to tweak it into that file
<kyleN> I am thinking from the point of view a thrid party trying to design a theme, one way is simpler than many ways
<bspencer> are we talking about putting icons in the template.png, or something else?
<bspencer> I don't think icons should be part of the template.png
<kyleN> bspencer: yes that is the topic
<kwwii> bspencer: yes, we are talking about putting icons in template.png
<kwwii> :-)
<bspencer> why not have them in the icons-related folder 
<kwwii> exactly
<bspencer> didn't we chat about that?  /usr/share/icons/<theme>
<bspencer> and hicolor as the backup
<kyleN> that's fine, I just want it to be easy to communicate to a real thrid party designer
<kwwii> yes, exactly
<horaceli> yep, I agree with bspencer
<kyleN> how do they know the list of valid icons, jusgt evey single one in there?
<kwwii> icons should really be the only thing that is not included in the template though
<bspencer> so 3rd party designer steps are what then?
<horaceli> 'cause the designer who create theme might not be the one who create the icon right?
<kwwii> 1) edit the template 2) edit gtkrc 3) edit icons
<bspencer> why #2?
<kwwii> because it also includes some line thickness, centering, and colors, I think
<bspencer> what are they changing in the gtkrc file?
<kyleN> is #2 extra credit, and why wouldn't the designer create the icon?
<doko> asac: no chance for a backport
<bspencer> kwwii: ok.  ugh.  gtkrc editing is tedious
<kwwii> for instance, if I change the current them to black, there will stil be lots of white stuff showing up
<bspencer> kwwii: good point
<kwwii> bspencer: yeah, I know (and hate it)
<bspencer> desktop backgrounds -- are they part of the theme?
<kwwii> I have just been using bash to change color values
<bspencer> (e.g. plankton includes a default one)
<kyleN> bspencer: YES
<bspencer> but not part of the template.png
<bspencer> ?
<kwwii> yes, it should be a part of the metatheme
<horaceli> kyleN, I am not sure , like on currrent gnome desktop. gtk theme is seperated with icon theme.
<kwwii> horaceli: right, gtk has become flexible enough to have it seperate
<bspencer> I don't think plankton's default background is part of their template.png
<bspencer>  /usr/share/backgrounds
<bspencer> not in the theme/images folder
<kwwii> it can now define spacing between colors and then figure out the exact color itself (allowing one to simply change colors on a running machine)
<kyleN> mobile-basic-flash specifies the background
<bspencer> so we would have icons /and/ backgrounds separate from the template.png
<kwwii> and probably any splash screens
<bspencer> ok.  
<bspencer> so are all of these part of the same debian theme package?
<kyleN> I am not sure why we want to separate all of this stuff from template.png. it makes it harder and harder to track and communicate with thrid-party designers
<kwwii> bspencer: they should be but are not at this time, that is why I suggest making a metatheme which pulls in all these pieces
<bspencer> kyleN:  I don't know if the backgrounds should be separate, I'm just saying I don't see it in the current Hildon plankton template.png
<kwwii> it is not in it now
<kwwii> but I do not see what we win by putting it in that way
<kyleN> I think we should focus on keeping it simple and manageable, which to me means one approach to graphical themeing
<kwwii> we cannot then include different wallpapers
<bspencer> kwwii: metatheme:  sounds good.  It might be nice to have a "theme checker" that validates a theme.  (some day)
<asac> Mithrandir: in case you didn't do ... you have to update the 99_configure.dpatch patch for xulrunner after adding in the patch i gave you (note: its autoconf2.13 your have to run) ... xulrunner doesn't run autotools during build.
<kwwii> most will want to include several wallpapers so that the user has a choice
<kwwii> bspencer: nicest would be to have a GUI app to plug in all these pieces and create such a metatheme
<horaceli> in the way that we put all these images into one theme package, a designer who is going to create a hildon theme would have to provide background, splash screen and icon theme too
<kwwii> then the artist only sees one interface for creation
<kwwii> horaceli: right
<kwwii> and the usplash will always be a pain, no matter what
<kyleN> that sounds promising
<horaceli> will that be a bit complicated for the designer?
<kwwii> I do not think so, we just need to keep the number of different pieces down to a minimum
<kwwii> and document this stuff very well
<horaceli> also user would probably like to change their own background image
<horaceli> so maybe seperate background image is better, what do you think?
<kwwii> horaceli: and pick their own colors as well
<kwwii> although that is probably secondary
<bspencer> kwwii: how do they pick colors ?
<horaceli> kwwii, right
<horaceli> I sometimes do that. :-)
<bspencer> can a theme support different colors?
<asac> Mithrandir: at best let me do it ... the patch has a bug (for non lpia archs) ... so i will upload midbrowser + xulrunner + firefox with a new version today.
<kwwii> bspencer: yes, the gtkrc can be flexible enough to handle that
<bspencer> default font colors -- or border colors?
<kyleN> sure. matchbox themes and gtkrc styles support colors
<bspencer> k
<bspencer> startup splash -- is that part of the theme package?
<bspencer> I was thinking it was separate
<kyleN> it is a part of the theme, absolutely
<kwwii> it probably should be
<bspencer> because you might have a device with a "Ubuntu" startup splash, but the user can't change that
<kyleN> not user-settable themes though
<bspencer> or more particularly another company logo
<kwwii> bspencer: right, it is only change by root
<kyleN> set at build time never to change
<kwwii> it will probably be set at build time and not changeable afterwards (without skills)
<bspencer> ok... what is a "user-settable" theme vs a normal theme ?
<kyleN> usesr settable and normal are different
<bspencer> is there one theme package, or a theme for startup splash and the normal theme.
<kyleN> i doubt users will ever set gtk stuff for example
<kwwii> there is a default theme which is shipped, some of that is settable by the user
<kyleN> user settable may be limited to colors and backgrounds
<kwwii> or one could make the whole metatheme switchable, as nokia does now
<bspencer> ok.  you mean user-settable is a UI-supported change-at-runtime thing
<kwwii> bspencer: exactly
<kyleN> b spencer, yes
<bspencer> we should identify that too
<kyleN> let's make a list of exactly what we think a build-time default theme consists of
<bspencer> so I can start making those changes.   maybe that is in the control panel theme changer utilities
<kyleN> boot splash images, right?
<kwwii> the usplash seems like the only thing that should not be changed by the user to me
<kwwii> sa more often than not it is pure branding
<kyleN> yes, but it is a part of the theme that a third party would want to set, right?
<kwwii> s/sa/as
<kwwii> kyleN: yes
<kyleN> what else, desktop background, right?
<bspencer> I have to stretch my thinking.  Before I thought the user would change a theme by replacing which /usr/share/themes/<theme> folder was used.  But there are more options than that
<kwwii> theoretically they will want to change everything, I guess
<bspencer> so if the user downloads a new theme package, then that package might have a different uplash image in it?
<kyleN> no, not everything
<kyleN> not layout
<kwwii> bspencer: no, that would need root rights to change the usplash
<kwwii> I would avoid that 
<bspencer> ok... so break the pieces up for me
<kyleN> so desktop background is or is not a part of the graphical theme? yes, i think
<kwwii> the usplash is the only thing that a third-party theme (installed and selectable by the user) should not include I think
<horaceli> so in that case, should we seperate usplash from the theme package?
<bspencer> kwwii: ok.  that makes sense.  usplash = multiple splash files that show during boot (bios, kernel load, X startup)
<kwwii> horaceli: no, that will still be part of what others will change, but that will not be a part of theme which is installable on top of the existing default theme
<bspencer> kwwii: ok, that's where I get lost.
<bspencer> how to overlay one theme on default theme
<kyleN> horaceli, I am looking at it differently. I look at it from the point of view of communicating with the third party designer, not switching themes at run time. so the uboot splash images are a part of the graphical theme
<kwwii> kyleN: right
<bspencer> and how and end user downloads a new theme, but not the usplash, etc.   (this is in addition to making changes inside an existing theme like colors, font, etc)
<horaceli> kyleN. I see. just considering installation, I have the same question with bob, how to overlay a new theme on a default one.
<kyleN> good questions, but I think usplash is not changeable
<kwwii> a new theme would replace parts of the existing theme (by installing the necessary pieces and then pointing to them in some preference
<kwwii> my idea was to have one package which an artist from a vendor can download and start changing instead of him/her having to find all the pieces themeselves
<kyleN> kwwii, is that your metatheme idea? can you please elaborate?
<kwwii> so the usplash is seperate from the metatheme 
<kwwii> the metatheme would contain all the pieces except the usplash
<kwwii> it could be one package including the usplash, only at build time the usplash is not put into the metatheme but rather put where in seperately
<bspencer> right now when I change themes it is all contained in one folder.  If I want to change anything, I have to change everything
<kwwii> bspencer: but that does not change the usplash, or?
<bspencer> no, because right now usplash isn't in the themes folder :)
<kyleN> themes are spit into theme and icont theme folders now, not all in theme
<bspencer> but I'm not doing it intelligently now
<kyleN> is the "package" more complicated than necessary? more complicated for example than a template.png with documentation?
<bspencer> but let's say there is a debian package with a /usr/share/themes/<theme> folder, /usr/share/icons/<theme>  and /usr/share/backgrounds/<themebk.png>     Where is the usplash stuff and how does the process of changing themes work?
<kwwii> it seems like we need 1) a total theme package (all artwork that a company will want to change for their device) and 2) a method for installing "themes" (everything except the usplash) in a running system
<kyleN> kwwii: YES
<kyleN> and I think we need to define 1) 
<kwwii> so 1) would create a 2) +  an usplash and set it all as default
<kyleN> personally, i think 1) includes icons, because a vendor will want it to
<bspencer> kwwii: yes, and 3) a UI mechanism to allow the user to change parts of an installed theme (colors and font), or change to a new theme altogether
<kwwii> bspencer: right
<kyleN> and, we need to define how applications implement a UME theme
<bspencer> horaceli: note:  when we're done you should talk with martin about how he is doing the usplash stuff and make sure we are in sync.
<bspencer> kyleN:  "implement" ?  or use?
<horaceli> bspencer, ok
<kwwii> bspencer: btw, you need to add a new config file for the current stuff so that the pic does not get scaled as it does now
<kyleN> how to port an app to UME that supports our themeing approach
<bspencer> kyleN:  right.
<bspencer> kwwii: where does that happen now?  
<bspencer> kwwii: how do I do that? 
<kwwii> bspencer: in the usplash package there is a config file...it is really easy to understand. basically it looks like we just need to add the needed resolution pic
<kwwii> bspencer: I can look into it as I created the current version
<bspencer> kwwii: ok.  I haven't looked at that package
<kyleN> I have been trying to define 1) total artwork to theme. There does not seem to be agreement whether this includes icons or not. can we address this point?
<bspencer> theme :   a debian package with a /usr/share/themes/<theme> folder, /usr/share/icons/<theme> and /usr/share/backgrounds/<themebk.png> 
<bspencer> the theme is created from a template.png and a set of icons and backgrounds
<bspencer> icons and backgrounds are included in the theme packgae, but are not part of the template.png
<kyleN> bspencer, ok. what is the list of required icons?
<kwwii> bspencer: exactly, as well as the gtkrcs
<kwwii> which would be in /usr/share/themes/<theme>
<bspencer> right.   and also matchbox/theme.xml 
<kwwii> yupp
<bspencer> also included in <theme> folder
<bspencer> kyleN:  no idea :)
<kyleN> I agree. how do we know the list of all icons that must be themed?
<bspencer> (about icons)
<kyleN> ok. 
<kyleN> ;)
<bspencer> let's think about it
<kwwii> kyleN: for anyone who is going to take existing icons from any other project it will be more work to paste new versions into the template file
<kyleN> that takes care of what I call the "desktop theme" now, how about the applilcation theme api?
<bspencer> kyleN:  wait
<kyleN> ok
<bspencer> I want to talk about icons
<kyleN> ok
<kwwii> basically the apps are themed just as the desktop is...the only thing they might want to add is extra icons and perhaps a splash screen
<bspencer> what icons does a theme include?  Does it include application icons or just those present in the framework?
<kyleN> and by the way, the background is currently set by mobile-basic-flash plugin, which doesn't seem right
<Mithrandir> kwwii: worst case as for resolutions> some of those devices have VGA out, like the Q1..
<kwwii> icon themes include all app icons as well (third party apps put their icons in hicolor)
<kyleN> kwii: yes
<kwwii> Mithrandir: ouch, good point
* kwwii has to hobble to the bathroom, brb
<kyleN> someone has to figure out if icon themeing actually works now
<Mithrandir> kwwii: I'm not sure if and how we should handle that
<bspencer> kwwii: app icons -- how does a theme know about apps?  do gnome themes do this?
<bspencer> kyleN: yeah, we are working on that.  mobile-basic-flash should  pick up the default background 
<kyleN> brb -- bathroom break
<kwwii> bspencer: the app looks for the icons in the heirarchy...apps installed by the user add their icons to the right places in that list
<kwwii> Mithrandir: not sure if there is any easy way to do that
<bspencer> Mithrandir: how about this:  it just looks really ugly :)
<kwwii> :p
<Mithrandir> bspencer: that's non-ideal. :-)
<bspencer> it would be nice to have a device to take to presentations and hook up to the projector
<kwwii> we should implement a feature where the usplash only does one fixed size/ratio and then pads everything around it to a given color (probably black)
<bspencer> so is that 640x480?
<bspencer> kwwii: sure.  centered image
<kwwii> exactly
<kwwii> having a fullscreen splash was a feature at the time :-)
<bspencer> we want to have a fullscreen splash right up until the UI homescreen is displayed
<bspencer> this involves 3 images
<kwwii> at this time, yes it is at least three images
<kwwii> background, throbber_fore and throbber_back
<kwwii> but that is also changeable (although you have to know C to change that)
<horaceli> kyleN, kwwii, bspencer, I am a bit lost in the topic. so will icons as well as backgrounds be included in template.png?
<kwwii> we should probably just keep the usplash as simple as possible
<kwwii> horaceli: I would rather that they stay seperate
<kyleN> horaceli, the feeling seems to be no they won't be included. but if not, i am not sure how the designer knows the list of icons he has to theme
<horaceli> kwwii, I agree with you
<kwwii> we need a good list of icons and their purposes (often the name of the icon gives it away)
<bspencer> horaceli: not in template.png... but included in the debian theme package
<kyleN> again, I am thinking about communicating this stuff to vendors.
<bspencer> yes, we need a list of icons to include
<kwwii> one point: when I say icons, I do not mean the arrows and such used on the widgets
<kwwii> all of those small pieces should be in the template
<kyleN> yes, lets define icons better
<bspencer> which is what I'm not sure about -- what applications are "most important" and included in a theme
<bspencer> is the browser theme in the theme?
<bspencer> email, chat, camera, bob's-foo-app
<Mithrandir> kwwii: feature> usplash already supports that, by design.
<kyleN> is the browser theme a special case (since it is much more complicated)?
<bspencer> icon = standard icons, not widget graphics
<kwwii> icons as I see them are images used to represent either: actions, mimetypes, apps, devices, emblems, emotes, filesystems, places, status, categories and animations
<bspencer> 32x32, 64x64, svg, etc.
<kyleN> kwwii, you took that from the freedesktop icon theme standards didn't you ;)
<bspencer> yeah.  so someone should write the list of icons needed.
<kyleN> are they ALWAYS square?
<kwwii> kyleN: yepp, although looking back filesystems should not be there I guess
<kwwii> kyleN: yes, always
<kwwii> although animations might not need to be
<kyleN> ok, then the current applications toolbar button background is not an icon
<kwwii> kyleN: it should be, and it should be square to fit in with the rest
<kyleN> (the one that looks like a miniature screenshoot of the desktop)
<kwwii> although that might be a point of discussion as it look pretty neat to have a non-square icon there
<kwwii> much more like MS
<kyleN> is there a usage difference between icons and non icons?
<kyleN> like, icons are on widgets, non icons are not?
<bspencer> kyleN: the current app icon isn't 48x48?
<kwwii> some icons are used on widgets (like the "ok" and "cancel" icons)..the arrows and checks and such are not icons
<kyleN> why are the arrows and checks not icons?
<bspencer> kwwii: right
<kwwii> erm, note that when I saw they are square that does not mean that the whole square is filled with colorfull pixels
<kyleN> the mb_apps_menu.png is 48 x 42
<kwwii> kyleN: because they normally only use one size and are often much smaller than the other icons (like 8x8 or 10x10)
<kwwii> and logically they belong to the widget theme, not the icon theme
<kwwii> visually as well
<kyleN> hmmm
<kyleN> by widget theme you mean gtk
<kwwii> yes
<kyleN> which means they aren't in /usr/share/icons bu in /usr/share/themes...
<kwwii> if the gtk theme defines a checkbox, the check that is shown on that should not be changeable with the icon theme as it might no longer fit with the rest of the widget theme
<kwwii> right
<kyleN> kwwii, right
<kyleN> that's good because it limits the number of basic themable icons
<kyleN> (gtk images are themeable, but that's extra credit ;)
<kwwii> right :-)
<kwwii> changing the background and the icons will be the main tweaks for most I guess
<kyleN> and the colors...
<kwwii> and the usplash...
<kwwii> ;-)
<kyleN> themeing has two parts: build/design time, and user change time. the two are not identical sets of things
<kwwii> yepp
<kyleN> i would like us to get really specific about which parts fall into which categories
<kyleN> boot splash; built theme, not user changeable, right?
<kwwii> right
<kyleN> desktop background, built theme and user changeable, right?
<kwwii> right
<kyleN> desktop icons (which includes all icons that ship with the product) build theme and maybe someday user changeable, right?
<kwwii> right
<kyleN> gtk themes (styles and images) build theme and probably not user changeable in the real world anytime soon, right?
<kwwii> probably only the color will be changeable soon
<kyleN> ok, would that be done by modifying the actual gtkrc files, or just there in memory representation?
<kyleN> (or some other way...)
<kyleN> matchbox theme: built, not user changeable, right?
<kwwii> no the gtkrc would not be changed, only some definition of the base colors would be changed
<kwwii> the matchbox theme, like gtk, would only change colors
<kyleN> isn't the base definition IN the gtkrc file?  but this is a detail
<kwwii> we might have to simply offer several color variations (in gtk and matchbox config files)
<kwwii> much like nokia does now
<kyleN> OK, i think gtrc files have inheritance rules so you can have multiple definitions of the same thing...
<kyleN> so that roughly a definition of what is graphical themeable, now, how about packaging/tools for the designer
<kwwii> at this time, you change the pics you want to change and wait for a developer to include it in the build
<kyleN> yes, but I am thinking about making it doable for a vendor. 
<kwwii> having some simple GUI app to select pics (and check sizes at the same time) would be nice
<kwwii> then you do not need a check list
<kwwii> but I guess we are a long way from that 
<kyleN> yes, but that is user settable themes, I mean how to design/implement the default theme(s) for a third party who might want to use UME
<bspencer> kyleN: I think he was talking about a tool that thrd party would use to create a theme
<kyleN> does that include slicer, or is it a replacement?
<bspencer> in addition
<kwwii> aside from the usplash there is little difference between user created themes and third party themes except that third party themes will be set as default at build time I think
<kyleN> can we try to define this more, i still don't quite get it
<kyleN> kwii, ok. what is given to a third party theme designer to enable them to get to work?
<kwwii> right now, the packages with the pics are given and instructions on what each pic does and the process/tool for cutting up the template, I guess
<kyleN> I don't know what you mean, sorry for being thick. What packages with pics?
<kwwii> the source code packages
<horaceli> kwwii, kyleN. I am going offline. it is quite late in PRC.
<kwwii> what we could do would be to seperate the actual pics into sub-packages
<kyleN> that seems like too much to give to a designer. 
<horaceli> thanks for the chat
<kwwii> horaceli: cool, sleep well, see you soon
<kyleN> thanks a lot for your thoughts horaceli
<horaceli> is you have any summary, please send email to me.
<horaceli> s/is/if
<kyleN> ok, I'll try
<kyleN> sub-packages? explain further please
<bspencer> what is the minimum we can give a 3rd party:   template.png, control file (how to split up template), a list of required icons, and 1 sample background image
<kyleN> two possibilities on the table; bspencers, and kwii's. pros and cons?
<kwwii> kyleN: our ways are the same, really
<kwwii> the wording is different
<kyleN> ok
<kyleN> does this enable the designer to tryout his theme with relative ease
<kwwii> not really
<bspencer> "relatively"
<kyleN> that seems like a problem
<kwwii> hehe
<bspencer> because we need a way to package his results
<kwwii> they would submit their stuff to some build process and then test it in an image
<bspencer> I don't know if the slicer does packaging, right?  That is a non-automated step
<kyleN> right. how about: thye have image-creator. we also provide a build file to move the images into the target
<kyleN> wouldn't that work?
<kwwii> we could make a script to copy the pics to the right location but at this time the image-builder needs to get it's stuff from servers
<kyleN> maybe we can assume they have image-creator adn have made a project and target
<bspencer> but if they are tweaking a theme, we could document how they would get it setup with a target and Xephyr
<kwwii> kyleN: they would also need a full local source tree
<kyleN> that's a "prerequisite" to theme creation
<kyleN> why would they need the source tree?
<bspencer> kwwii: what are you talking about "source tree"  :)
<kwwii> bspencer: can image-biulder work with local sources?
<bspencer> kwwii: no.  But after you create an image you can replace files manually in your target file system (on the workstation)
<bspencer> without needing a device
<kwwii> bspencer: ahhh, right...that would work
<kyleN> manually, or with a makefile we provide 
<kwwii> we simply need a script to copy the files to the chroot in the right places
<kyleN> right, no source tree needed
<kyleN> ok, so the we create a theme sdk package that includes all of this
<kwwii> a series of makefiles would do that...they would just need to keep the same directory stucture
<kyleN> the theme sdk dicates the dir structure
<kyleN> dictates
<kwwii> right
<kyleN> how much work is this theme sdk package?
<kyleN> to create
<kyleN> assuming we've figued out the icon list and so forth...
<kwwii> once we know which parts are what, it shouldn't be too much work I guess
<kwwii> documenting it will be the most work I think
<kyleN> I can probably help out there, assuming adequate communications
<kwwii> as we are not radically changing anything in the process, just moving small parts
<kyleN> can the theme sdk also apply to themeing apps that are a part of theu build?
<kyleN> or is that really all in the app's source code
<kwwii> kyleN: as of now, other apps will not have that much themeing of their own (an icon or two, a splash screen perhaps)
<kwwii> if things are different it will be on a source code level
<kyleN> kwwii, yes, I agree
<kwwii> and that is beyond simple themeing
<kyleN> what are the big pieces of work that need to be done, can we make a list?
<kwwii> seperate the parts, document while changing them, make it easy to test with a script or such
<bspencer> I hate to suggest it, but #1) go through and identify all the graphics that are needed and map this to the Hildon code so we know where each pixel is being used.
<kwwii> bspencer: yeah, good point
* bspencer feels tired already
<kyleN> 1) identify all "desktop" images
<bspencer> there are 500 of them
<bspencer> currently
<kyleN> 2) identify all desktop icons
<kwwii> and figure out which images are really used in code, which are doubled, etc.
<kyleN> 500 USED ones?
<bspencer> and somewhere we need to identify how, where, and which graphics will be "tiled"
<kwwii> I can easily imagine that
<kwwii> luckily the tiling and such only occurs in the template stuff and should be defined as such in the gtkrc
<bspencer> kyleN:  540 image in plankton.  Once we're done we'll probably be similar
<bspencer> kwwii: right, and tiling is limited to certain areas, like panel backgrounds
<kyleN> that's a lot, if that's not managed somehow to deleted outdated images, themeing gets harder andharder to do 
<kyleN> is it feasible to programmatically require new themed images get registered somehow?
<kwwii> kyleN: right, but I do not see a way around that
<kwwii> we just need to keep the sdk up to date once it is ready
<kyleN> programmatically or through work-flow rules
<kwwii> but once a company changes the context or functionality of an app they will need to add and change things anyway
<kyleN> a master list of themed images and an automated process to find new non-registered ones and send appropriate hate mail perhaps? ;)
<kyleN> kwwii, so each vendor has to amintain their own sdk? interesting
<kwwii> kyleN: no, they will need to change ours according to their own needs probably
<kwwii> if they add some app with a new action it will necessarily need a new icons to describe that functionality
<kyleN> i suspect they'll have there own code (derived from us) and won't want to change "ours" 
<kyleN> their, I meant
<kwwii> sa we cannot make pics for every possible purpose in advance without knowing their intentions
<kwwii> like, if they add a plugin, it will need new icons - no way around that I think
<kyleN> right, but why can't they do that to their own repository?
<kwwii> they could, but if that new app or plugin replaces one of ours they will need to also remove the icons they no longer need as well
<kyleN> in other words, any third party that would actually build a product would want to keep this to themselves, without breaking licenses of course
<bspencer> I have to go.  I'll follow up with your guys in email.  thanks a lot
<kyleN> thanks a lot bob!
<kwwii> have fun bob
<kyleN> kwwii, would they "have to" remove unused icons?
<kwwii> kyleN: I don't think it matter whether they keep it to themselves or not
<kwwii> kyleN: they might want to if it comes down to the size of the harddrive or such
<kwwii> but they do not have to
<kyleN> yes
<kwwii> but their pics should stay in their tree only, and not influence ours
<kyleN> so the sdk covers ume standard graphical themeing, but vendors can further customize and that is up to them how to do it?
<kwwii> yes, that is pretty much how I see it
<kwwii> I mean, adding pics to the right places, perhaps removing some...not much more than that on the artwork side
<kyleN> what is needed to better define the app theme "api"?
<kwwii> if they add apps, if will be included with the app source...but if it is in the base system it will be more than that
<kwwii> we need to define where people should install their pics so that they are used with their apps
<kyleN> right
<kwwii> and so that they do not randomly pick places to put pics
<kyleN> right
<kyleN> is the icon theme for apps well defined now, or are their holes. I don't know exactly how it works even after reading the standard and poking aournd
<kyleN> "there" i meant ;)
<kwwii> the icon theme for apps fits directly into the normal icon theme, with the exception that an app can add a pic in it's own dir and use that before defaulting back to the normal theme
<kwwii> they both have the same structure
<kyleN> ok, so for example. foo app results in /usr/shar/icons/foo/32x32/(folder)/file?
* agoliveira have quite some backlog to catch-up today...
<kyleN> or is it /usr/share/icons/(theme)/32x32/foo/file?
<kyleN> the latter, i suppose... 
<kwwii> no, foo app would either add icons upstream to /usr/shar/icons/<THEME> and add it's app icon to /usr/share/icons/hicolor
<kwwii> if it does not go into the main theme, it would be included in the /usr/share/apps/<APPNAME>/images 
<kyleN> i see. upstream to support multiple themes, hicolor to support no theme default
<kwwii> right, the icon loader always defaults back to hicolor
<kwwii> at this time, I think it only uses hicolor anyway
<kwwii> as no special theme is defined
<kwwii> or included
<kyleN> yes, in other words, icon themeing isn't turn on yet
<kwwii> exactly
<kyleN> i think we covered a lot of ground
<kwwii> yes, we are definitely further than we were two hours ago ;-)
<kyleN> is it your sense that folks generally agree with the details we articulated in the lst phase of the conversation?
<kyleN> last phase
<kwwii> yes
<kyleN> I will attempt a concise summary and email the parties
<kwwii> killer - thanks :-)
<kyleN> corrections/comments welcome/appreciated as always ;)
<kwwii> great
<kyleN> gotta go - cheers
<kwwii> time for me to cook dinner
<kwwii> see you
<asac> Mithrandir: xulrunner and mibrowser wait approval ... please let them through
<Mithrandir> accepted
<bspencer> Mithrandir: you alive and kicking?
<bspencer> Mithrandir: I want to push they keyboard a little to get something functional and pretty for some upcoming presentations.
<Mithrandir> bspencer: alive and kicking> yes, but not very present
<bspencer> Mithrandir: what do I need to get the automatic-launch functionality working (you said you saw)
<Mithrandir> it should be working now if you're using the package from Ubuntu
<bspencer> just the matchbox keyboard -- or somehitng else?
<Mithrandir> just matchbox-keyboard
<bspencer> k.  I'll try.  thx
<Mithrandir> Version: 0.1+svn20070815-0ubuntu4
<Mithrandir> that one should work fine
<Charliefjohnson> Mithrandir: Did you see my email concerning the daily build ??  
<mdz> Mithrandir: I have, and will follow up with Tollef
<rob_> Mithrandir / amitk_ : is there something up with the apt repos ? i'm getting unmet dependencies on the linux-image-ume package when attempting to create a target image for the crown beach platform
<Charliefjohnson> mdz: Thanks Matt.
<agoliveira> bspencer: Hi Bob. There yet?
<bspencer> there
<bspencer> agoliveira, hello
<agoliveira> bspencer: Cool. Can you refresh my memory about the expected support for VoIP? I'm looking for alternatives to Ekiga.
<bspencer> agoliveira, keep looking :)
<bspencer> we are looking at voip to add to our chat application (Telepahty based)
<agoliveira> Ah...
<bspencer> but are still in the very early stages.
<bspencer> just have one guy doing that
<bspencer> and the chat app still has lots of work before it is ready doing the basic stuff
<bspencer> but per Rob (Telepahty guy) it should be straightforward to add it
<agoliveira> Have you seen this one: http://tapioca-voip.sourceforge.net/wiki/index.php/Landell
<agoliveira> bspencer: or http://tapioca-voip.sourceforge.net/wiki/index.php/Ereseva
<agoliveira> Both are based on Telepathy
<agoliveira> Tapioca, actually which is a frameowork based on it.
<bspencer> I haven't seen that
<agoliveira> bspencer: You should :) Anyway, should I keep looking for something or can I assume that you will take care of this with your IM application?
<bspencer> well, we like your tips if you have them.  We'll try to get something wiggling but it will be new code, nothing stable like we might find
<agoliveira> bspencer: I don't have any, unfortunately, but those. I don't feel confortable using Ekiga if I can avoid as it's big and there's no hildon support on it.
<bspencer> agreed
<agoliveira> bspencer: Let me give a shot on those little guys above and see what happens.
<bspencer> k
<Mithrandir> Charliefjohnson: mdz followed up on that, I see.  I'm hoping we can have them building again tomorrow.
<Charliefjohnson> Mithrandir : Did you pick up your Menlow yet ?
<Mithrandir> Charliefjohnson: yes, it's safely under my desk now.
<Mithrandir> I could possibly have had the images working today, were it not for debootstrap having a bug which broke the image creator.
<Charliefjohnson> Mithrandir: OK. Great
<amitk_> rob_: details of the unmet dependencies?
<mjg59> agoliveira: I've just uploaded haze. Mission-control and empathy have both been updated to cope.
<mjg59> So that should provide a solid MSN and AIM implementation.
<agoliveira> mjg59: Cool.
<agoliveira> mjg59: Could you please take a look how difficult would be to hildonize Pimlico's contacts?
<mjg59> Yeah, will do
<mjg59> I suspect it'll involve writing a new UI to get it to a decent level
<mjg59> But I'll check with the OH guys
<agoliveira> mjg59: Nice. Thanks.
<mjg59> agoliveira: OH say "Hahahahaha"
<agoliveira> mjg59: I don't know if I like this... :)
<mjg59> Looks like they've had to rewrite it for openmoko
<agoliveira> mjg59: Oh great...
<agoliveira> mjg59: As dates and tasks already have a hildon interface I assumed it wouldn't be difficult to do it with contacts
<mjg59> agoliveira: Quite different apps, sadly
<mjg59> It's basically a matter of writing a new ui from scratch
<agoliveira> mjg59: In this case we maybe consider fall back to GPE.
<mjg59> I'll check into it. It might well not be too bad
<agoliveira> mjg59: Well, take a look at this anyway please. If it's really this time consuming we'll see what to do.
<mjg59> It's really just a matter of writing a new layout for the widgets
<mjg59> I'd guess a few hours, but not too many
<agoliveira> mjg59: If you think that's the case, go for it if you can.
<Mithrandir> agoliveira: uh, falling back to GPE wouldn't have solved anything, firstly because I don't believe they use evolution-data-server, secondly because gpe doesn't seem to use hildon.
<agoliveira> GPE 2.8 does;
<agoliveira> Mithrandir: and, I didn't say we should do it, I was considering the options like it's better than nothing.
<Mithrandir> uh, no, it doesn't.
<agoliveira> Sorry, let me be more explicit, it does not use evolution-data-server but it does have hildon suport.
<Mithrandir> http://www.linuxtogo.org/gowiki/GPERoadmap doesn't list any hildon libraries.
<agoliveira> * Improved support for the Maemo platform (gpe-timesheet, gpe-filemanager,  gpe-calendar, Starling) 
<agoliveira> The first stable release of GPE for the Maemo environment is now available.  GPE for Maemo includes the following applications: gpe-calendar, gpe-contacts,  gpe-todo, gpe-timesheet, gpe-filemanager, starling (audio player) and  gpesyncd.  The most important changes since 2.7 are:      * A heavily improved gpe-calendar and related libraries     * Improved import/export and synchronisation support     * Starling - a new audio playe
<agoliveira> It was released about 2 weeks ago.
<agoliveira> Mithrandir: Strange they don't have anything in the link you posted. There's been was some patches for hildon support for some time already IIRC.
<Mithrandir> GPE doesn't use hildon.  Some GPE apps have hildon UIs too, which is something entirely different.
<agoliveira> Mithrandir: Ok, I'm not arguing about this minucia I just said that it could be an alternative.
<Mithrandir> mjg59: last I talked with OH, they talked about a doing a rewrite of contacts.
<Mithrandir> (last being at guadec)
<mjg59> Mithrandir: Yeah, it's been done
<mjg59> But no hildon UI yet
<Mithrandir> which would make hildonising it quite simple, at least so they claimed.
<mjg59> It's basically mechanical
<mjg59> But probably still ~2000 lines of code
<Mithrandir> ugh, ok.
<Mithrandir> that's a bit.
<Mithrandir> even for SMOP.
<mjg59> Mostly not from scratch
<mjg59> A lot of it can be cribbed from the vanilla or openmoko code
<Mithrandir> still a bit of work.
<agoliveira> So, what should we do? Add a hildon interface to the current code or poke the guys to see if their timetable fits us?
<Mithrandir> they weren't going to do it themselves, short-term?
<mjg59> Nope
<mjg59> Not without a contract
<mjg59> Nokia have something that works already, so no great incentive for the moment
<Mithrandir> ok..
<Mithrandir> how much work do you think it'll be to fix it up?
<agoliveira> mjg59: And it's based on GPE iiRC.
<mjg59> Mithrandir: I suspect a small number of hours
<Mithrandir> mjg59: if you want to work on it, please.
<mjg59> Mithrandir: Probably be next week
<Mithrandir> sounds good to me.
<rusty_> Mithrandir, fset installation is broken at the moment.  The linux-image-generic fails because it can not install linux-ubuntu-modules-2.6.22-10-generic
<rusty_> or maybe i should be pinging amitk_ 
<rusty_> just a heads up... i'm guessing the apt repository is in flux
<Mithrandir> rusty_: could well be, we're having some trouble with the current batch of kernels.  We're working on it.
<agoliveira> mjg59: Cool. I'll continue with the other stuff. fbreader is an a** to compile.
* agoliveira wonders why the last comment popped out of his head...
<agoliveira> Just found this: http://live.gnome.org/Vala Looks interesting.
<agoliveira> Here's a simple hildon application: http://live.gnome.org/Vala/HildonSample
* agoliveira gave up Landell as VoIP alternative. Old, unmaintened code in C# that depends of a lot of mono bindings and libs... ugh...
<agoliveira> mjg59: You told me you prepared a hildon interface fro Cheese? Where is it? Upstream?
<mjg59> agoliveira: Not yet
<mjg59> Still a couple of issues to fix up
<agoliveira> mjg59: Ok, just checking.
<amitk_> rusty_: Hmm.. How does it find 2.6.22-10? That failed to build
<rusty_> amitk_, the linux-image-generic package dependencies call for linux-ubuntu-modules-2.6.22-10-generic
<amitk_> rusty_: buggy kernel upload. Being worked on.
<lucasr> hei all
<lucasr> how are things progressing? :-)
<bspencer> lucasr, good -- we got control panel working now with small workaround
<lucasr> bspencer, cool
<bspencer> we (I) need to have a chat with hildon-libs list about things we've done wrt Hildon
<bspencer> and talk about how these could get upstream
<bspencer> lucasr, what is your timeframe for freezing code for Sept release?  Are changes slowing down already/
<bspencer> we've been debating when to re-sync with the latest Hildon 
<lucasr> bspencer, we're mostly in bugfixing mode now
<lucasr> bspencer, we're already slowing down on the real changes
<bspencer> lucasr, i figured so.
<rob_> amitk_, this was the error i was getting from apt-get: The following packages have unmet dependencies:
<rob_>   linux-image-ume: Depends: linux-image-2.6.22-10-ume but it is not installable
<rob_>                    Depends: linux-ubuntu-modules-2.6.22-10-ume but it is not installable
<rob_> E: Broken packages
<kylem> yes, they're broken, i'm working on it, should be fixed in an hour or so.
<rob_> kylem, thanks
<kylem> np
<kylem> hopefully it will build fast...
#ubuntu-mobile 2007-08-22
<rusty_> amitk_, any word on the kernel breakage?  we are getting a train of people stuck on image creation
<rob_> rusty_, kylem is working on it... haven't heard any updates other than what he posted above
<mjg59> rusty_: It's generally the case that there will be stages during the development cycle where important parts of the distribution are uninstallable
<kylem> (i'm still working on it)
<agoliveira> Mithrandir: Hi. Is there any problem with the applications I've being sending you? I didn't see any of them on the lpia build yet.
<Mithrandir> agoliveira: I haven't had time to review them; I've been flat out with getting the menlow fset installable
<agoliveira> Mithrandir: Right. Just to know.
<mdz> Mithrandir: if you don't have time for them, perhaps mjg59 can help?
<mdz> Mithrandir: or dholbach
<Mithrandir> I'll ask dholbach if he can help
<kylem> rob_, things should be back to normal now, sorry about the mess yesterday.
<Charliefjohnson> Mithrandir: Any progress on fixing the menlow builds?
<Mithrandir> Charliefjohnson: yes, doing a test build now.  If that works, I'll upload the new moblin-image-creator and trigger fresh dailies.
<Mithrandir> I'll send you an email with the state before I leave for the day.
<Charliefjohnson> Mithrandir: OK. Thanks.
<Mithrandir> built fine, uploading new moblin-image-creator
<Charliefjohnson> Mithrandir, mdz : Can you two to 14:00 UTC on Friday?
<agoliveira> Charliefjohnson: Hi. By that time I believe htey are gone already. I sugest email them.
<Charliefjohnson> agoliveira: that is 3:00pm & 4:00pm in the afternoon for them.  I'd expect them to be there.
<agoliveira> Charliefjohnson: I meant now. They may not see you message :)
<Charliefjohnson> They should use /away then.  I can never tell if they are on.
<agoliveira> Charliefjohnson: Agree but anyway, I suggest you email them. Messages here can be lost if one have a crash and our emails are IMAP.
<Charliefjohnson> agoliveira:Email has been sent.
<agoliveira> Cool.
<rob_> kylem, i'm still getting the dependency issue "linux-image-ume: Depends: linux-ubuntu-modules-2.6.22-10-ume but it is not installable"
<kylem> rob_, er, odd, let met look into it
<kylem> er, is this using an internal mirror?
<kylem> it seems fine to me.
<Mithrandir> Charliefjohnson: 1400 UTC is a bit late, can we do 1300 UTC instead?
<Charliefjohnson> Mithrandir: 1300UTC is 6:00am PDT - Pretty early for me.
<Mithrandir> ugh, point.
<Mithrandir> is this a one-off-move or a permanent one?
<Charliefjohnson> Mithrandir: One off.  This week only.
<Mithrandir> ok, 1400 UTC it is, then.
<Mithrandir> as in, that works for me.
<Charliefjohnson> Mithrandir:Hopefully it will work for mdz tool
<Charliefjohnson> s/tool/too./
<Mithrandir> yup
<Charliefjohnson> Mithrandir: Any build update?  Is it a image-creator fset issue ?  I heard something about a kernel build issue?
<Mithrandir> Charliefjohnson: I started a build literally a minute ago.  I'll tell you once I have anything more for you.
<Mithrandir> Charliefjohnson: however, my local build was fine, so I think this one will work fine.
<Charliefjohnson> Mithrandir:OK
<Mithrandir> so I'll give you feedback when it's done.
<rob_> kylem, yes it's using our internal mirror of your repo...let me give it a try using the ubuntu repo directly
<kylem> ah, probably just hasn't rsynched that package across, my ume chroot upgraded fine. but let me know if you have problems.
<Mithrandir> Charliefjohnson: http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/moblin/menlow_full/20070822.1/
<Mithrandir> I haven't tested it, but it now at least built successfully.
<Charliefjohnson> Mithrandir:Ok I'll try it out.
<Mithrandir> I'm off to bed now, it being half past ten in the evening.  Leave a message or send me an email if it blows up and I'll see what I can do tomorrow.  I'm going to test it anyway.
<Mithrandir> Charliefjohnson: do you want this per email too, or is just IRC fine?
<Charliefjohnson> Mithrandir: IRC is OK.  I'm downloading now.
<Mithrandir> ok, cheers.
<Mithrandir> see you around, then
<Charliefjohnson> Mithrandir: I'll send an email concerning my results.
<rob_> kylem, the problem went away when i switched to not using our internal mirror. it would appear our internal mirror is behind in it's rsyncing
<kylem> ah, ok, cool.
<rob_> i would have thought by now that it would have caught up by now 
#ubuntu-mobile 2007-08-23
<bspencer> Mithrandir, how do we get a new blueprint on launchpad?
<bspencer> Mithrandir, we wanted to make a new "mobile-chat" blueprint
<Mithrandir> bspencer: https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu -> register blueprint.
<bspencer> Mithrandir, thanks
<bspencer> when I went to https://blueprints.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-mobile  there was no such link
<Mithrandir> bspencer: yeah, it's a bit confusing.
<amitk_> Mithrandir: what is the difference between the fsets "crownbeach full-mobil" and "moblin crownbeach full-mobile"?
<Mithrandir> amitk_: you have to read the definitions of them.
<amitk_> agoliveira: know how to get to BIOS on the samsung if I don't have a USB keyboard handy?
<agoliveira> amitk_: Hi Amit. Yes, you can hold the R "mouse" button on the right
<amitk_> agoliveira: does your speaker make a sound like it's a popcorn maker?
<agoliveira> No. Actually, now that you mention, I don't recall to hear anything from it but I didn't activelly tested.
<mjg59> Ok. How the hell do I generate a working initramfs on the installed system?
<Mithrandir> good morning, everybody.
<Mithrandir> mjg59,amitk_,agoliveira: all of you around for the meeting?
<mjg59> Yes
<agoliveira> yep
<amitk_> yes
<rustyl> morning
<Mithrandir> rustyl: care to round up bob and mauri and whoever else from your side is attending?
<rustyl> there's bob
<rustyl> and Carl is on the way
<HappyCamp> I'm here for the meeting
<bspencer> morning y'all
<HappyCamp> Mauri will not be attending today.  She has an all day meeting.
<Mithrandir> oh, ok.
<rustyl> Mithrandir, i'm not sure if Mauri will be able to make it.  She is in an all day meeting today (but she might sneak in)
<kwwii> evening
* agoliveira is hungry and ready and waves all.
<Mithrandir> agoliveira: you should learn to eat during other meetings. :-)
<Mithrandir> ok, are we missing anybody?
<amitk_> all day meetings... what fun she has!
<Mithrandir> bspencer: before the meeting starts, I'd like to shame you for failing to post status reports to the mailing list.
<Mithrandir> please make sure to do so next week?
* bspencer bows his head
* AtomicPunk is ToddBrandt
<bspencer> k
<Mithrandir> let's start then
<Mithrandir> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 15:53. The chair is Mithrandir.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC] , [IDEA] , [ACTION] , [AGREED] , [LINK] , [VOTE] 
<Mithrandir> I notice the clock on MootBot is still wrong by almost ten minutes.
<agoliveira> Let's try to make it in 1 hour this time, please? :)
<agoliveira> or less
<Mithrandir> sure
<HappyCamp> agoliveira, I hope you got a snack :)
<Mithrandir> We'll go through any of the specs which haven't had status reports sent to the list, then any other business.
<Mithrandir> sounds like a plan?
<rustyl> yes
<Mithrandir> today, we'll start with the mobile-utilities, by AtomicPunk 
<agoliveira> Yes, I'm having a fruit now to hold for another hour :)
<Mithrandir> [TOPIC]  mobile-utilities
<MootBot> New Topic:  mobile-utilities 
<AtomicPunk> ok
<AtomicPunk> so... did you want a status update?
<Mithrandir> yes, please.
<AtomicPunk> oh, sorry
<Mithrandir> current status, any blockers and such.
<AtomicPunk> ok, basically the moblin-applets package is building and running with 7 applets
<AtomicPunk> I'm still pulling out irrelevant gnome code but for the most part the warnings have ceased
<Mithrandir> sounds good, does it need any other packages than what's already in Ubuntu?
<AtomicPunk> I'm also in the process of setting up a new project page for moblin-applets on the moblin site with documentation on how to use the various applets, and eventually with a nice tutorial on how to enable new pugins in the package with glade guis
<AtomicPunk> nope, it's running well
<AtomicPunk> that's about it, I'm also working on pulling in the gnome-system-tools code so that we can have a complete applets set
<rustyl> AtomicPunk, you should talk about the path to adding the new moblin-applets package into Ubuntu Gutsy
<AtomicPunk> well, I'm sortof new at that, I'm just waiting for feedback at the moment, what's the next step?
<Mithrandir> AtomicPunk: what's your plan to avoid duplicating g-s-t and playing catch-up forever?
<rob_> hi everyone
<rustyl> a lot of what g-s-t does is not applicable
<AtomicPunk> Mithrandir: basically the moblin applets is a fork of gnome-control-center and gnome-system-tools, it stops at version 2.18.1
<AtomicPunk> I'm pulling out as much gnome-desktop stuff as possible and am making it hildo specific
<AtomicPunk> hildon
<Mithrandir> AtomicPunk: ok, and you intend to keep it that way and merge updated functionality by hand?
<AtomicPunk> actually I don't intend to merge again, we'll manage these packages separately
<AtomicPunk> We're just using gnome as a starting point
<bspencer> if we see some nifty or important upstream feature we'll merge by hand
<Mithrandir> ok
<AtomicPunk> Yea, if it's really cool
<Mithrandir> I'll see what I can do to get moblin-applets into the repository, but it might not happen today.
<AtomicPunk> no problem
<bspencer> is there a remedy planned to help alieviate the Mithrandir-in-the-middle bottle-neck?
<AtomicPunk> oh, bspencer, incidentally, I added in the kepyboard applet as a starting point for Jian's keyboard work
<bspencer> AtomicPunk: thanks
<Mithrandir> bspencer: yes: getting more of you guys able to upload and getting more staffing from our side.
<rustyl> the process for pushing changes into Ubuntu should be it's own topic
<bspencer> Mithrandir: ok.  want to reduce our bugging you as soon as we can
<Mithrandir> bspencer: so do I. .-)
<bspencer> (though we'd prefer to clone you)
<Mithrandir> s/.-)/:-)/
<Mithrandir> AtomicPunk: thanks for your update.
<Mithrandir> let's move on then.
<Mithrandir> [TOPIC]  mobile-image-creation
<MootBot> New Topic:  mobile-image-creation 
<Mithrandir> HappyCamp: that's your baby now, right?
<HappyCamp> Yep
<rustyl> more like red headed step child :->
<HappyCamp> I burp it every night :)
<HappyCamp> Uh, am I supposed to say something here???
<Mithrandir> can you give us a status update?  Are there any changes going on, any blockers, etc?
<HappyCamp> I have been continuing to fix bugs and try to improve things that I feel need to get better.
<HappyCamp> At the moment I don't know of any blockers.  We of course had some issues in the last two days with the Gutsy repo, but I don't believe that was our fault.
<mdz> I think the issue of desynchronization between the image creator config and what's in gutsy needs to be addressed
<HappyCamp> Rusty did create an Ubuntu staging area for FSets.  Maybe he would like to describe that.
<mdz> but perhaps we can do that as part of the general moblin->ubuntu discussion as rustyl suggested
<agoliveira> mdz: +1
<Mithrandir> mdz: I worked around it by yanking out all the problematic bits from the fsets, but that's hardly the right way to do it.
<bspencer> we felt that
<Mithrandir> rustyl: can you say something about the staging area?
<HappyCamp> rustyl, would you like to describe the Ubuntu staging area fset?
<rustyl> We added a new fset called 'ubuntu-stagin'
<bspencer> g
<rustyl> this fset is dedicated to packages that are currently in moblin, ...
<rustyl> and are ready for pushing into ubuntu...
<rustyl> but are not there yet.
<rustyl> The toplevel full-stack fsets do NOT pull in this fset
<HappyCamp> So this would be for packages which do NOT exist at all in Ubuntu??
<rustyl> so this makes it easier to do testing fo the packages while making it very clear that the packages are not in gutsy
<rustyl> HappyCamp, yes
* HappyCamp plays dumb or maybe he really is :)
<rustyl> then we have successful ume builds
<rustyl> it facilitates testing and also helps document what needs to be pushed 
<rustyl> for new packages that is
<rustyl> we still have the issue of existing packages needing to push updates
<rustyl> thoughts anyone?
<agoliveira> rustyl: So one have to add a high level fset and this one to have it?
<amitk_> will the packages disappear from moblin once they are merged into ubuntu?
<rustyl> people have to add an additional step when creating target images
<HappyCamp> amitk_, some packages will disappear from moblin but others will remain.
<Mithrandir> rustyl: I'd like to address the pushing bit as a separate topic.
<rustyl> amitk_, but gutsy is pulled first
<rustyl> ok
<agoliveira> ok
<Mithrandir> HappyCamp: thanks; let's move on
<HappyCamp> k :)
<Mithrandir> [TOPIC]  mobile-mediaplayer
<MootBot> New Topic:  mobile-mediaplayer 
<bspencer> I compiled a long list of functional specifications
<Mithrandir> (skipping those specs with status reports, and anything from Charliejohnson_ as he's not here)
<bspencer> after chatting with the Pepper guys a little we realized that htere were some holes in our current list
<bspencer> the scope of media is quite large, actually
<bspencer> I'm in the middle of updating the online blueprint
<Charliejohnson_> Mithrandir: I'm monitoring but am in an all day meeting.  
<bspencer> should be done by end of meeting
<Mithrandir> Charliejohnson_: ok.
<bspencer> the media player is at a state of being ready to be pulled in (with moblin-applets)
<Mithrandir> I've run into some problems pushing the media player into Ubuntu.  Short summary is python-hildon is quite annoying to get to behave properly.  Once I've fixed that I'll push it in.
<bspencer> it is currently called "mobile-player" but we'll be renaming it to "moblin-media"
<Mithrandir> could we do that before pushing it?
<bspencer> Mithrandir: ok.  I know that horace worked on that piece
<bspencer> Mithrandir: yes.  we'll rename it today
<bspencer> horace also had some problem with python, but he fixed it
<bspencer> perhaps only in moblin... I don't recall.  I'll have to check into that
<agoliveira> bspencer: moblin-media or moblin-media-player?
<bspencer> the former 
<Mithrandir> can you punt the blueprint back to awaiting approval once you've edited it?
<agoliveira> Werid... :)
<bspencer> Mithrandir: will do
<bspencer> agoliveira: well, complain now
<bspencer> :)
<bspencer> moblin-media-viewer
* agoliveira complains now
<agoliveira> ;)
<kwwii> it is more than either a player or a viewer, I think the general name is probably more understandable
<rustyl> how about project-builder 
* rustyl gets back under his rock
<bspencer> one of the areas that we are still not covering gracefully is getting content on the MID
<agoliveira> bspencer: You probably have like 3 milion marketing guys in your building. Let them do that :)
<bspencer> agoliveira: done
<kwwii> rustyl: just cause you want an icon, don't take it out on me
<bspencer> currently our sync plan is to have a USB interface to the PC.  That's it.
<bspencer> but we might want to extend that for user simplicity.
<bspencer> But in general we are making good progress on the player
<bspencer> the blueprint is nearly done
<bspencer> hoping to have discussion on it this week
<bspencer> <end status>
<agoliveira> lenkawell: Hi Len.
<lenkawell> agoleira, hi!
<Mithrandir> ok, I'm quite interested in seeing how it
<mdz> lenkawell: (meeting in progress)
<Mithrandir> 's looking now
<bspencer> I'll send a screenshot to the list in the next few minutes
<Mithrandir> ok, moving on.
<Mithrandir> amitk_: you haven't sent updates to the list, have you?
<amitk_> Mithrandir: no time today...
<Mithrandir> [TOPIC]  power-management-in-ubuntu / mobile-kernel
<MootBot> New Topic:  power-management-in-ubuntu / mobile-kernel 
<Mithrandir> amitk_: you get to do it live, then. :-)
<amitk_> ok... so the list is SDIO stack, FB_VESA and thermal
<amitk_> SDIO stack got integrated with -10.30
<Mithrandir> does it generate uevents properly, so it can be taken out of /etc/modules?
<mdz> 2.6.22-10.30 is what's in the current daily builds
<amitk_> Mithrandir: haven't tested SDIO yet on the crownbeach
<Mithrandir> do you have any sdio hardware?
<amitk_> FB_VESA was enabled on request from Intel, but protests from mjg59
<mjg59> There should be no reason for FB_VESA to be built in
<mjg59> usplash uses its own VESA implementation
<amitk_> Mauri promised to send me a SDIO WLAN card .. still waiting on that
<amitk_> perhaps an ACTION?
<Mithrandir> ? on what?  test sdio hardware when it arrives?
<Mithrandir> or take FB_VESA out?
<amitk_> to send me an SDIO peripheral for testing :)
<amitk_> I am also working on moving UME and LPIA to a binary-custom.d build
<Mithrandir> what does that mean, in practice?
<Mithrandir> I think she already knows, but I can follow up on that.
<amitk_> in preparation for the gutsy update that might have the upstream MMC stack
<amitk_> does anybody have problems with that? Users shouldn't notice the difference
<Mithrandir> no, it just took me a minute to remember what it meant
<Mithrandir> it means we can do crazy patching with new, fresh code and such which doesn't touch the normal builds, right?
<amitk_> To clarify further: this is to allow us to patch only a single flavour (UME/LPIA) with patches
<amitk_> right
<amitk_> ok.. so moving on
<Mithrandir> ok, coolie
<Charliejohnson_> amitk_: So it sounds like this will allow us to have UME running on its own schedule from gutsy?
<amitk_> Charliejohnson_: not entirely on its own, but you could put in more breakage-inducing stuff in there :)
<mdz> Charliejohnson_: it's a partial decoupling on the kernel side, yes
<Mithrandir> amitk_: ok, so moving on to FB_VESA.
<amitk_> after that, I will merge the thermal patches that have been languishing all this week due to our kernel upload problems
<Charliejohnson_> mdz:OK great.  Will take this into account in the re-plan.
<amitk_> mjg59: ?
<mdz> amitk_: usplash makes VESA calls directly, it doesn't use fb
<mjg59> It /can/ use fb, but if it needs to on x86 then that's a bug
<mjg59> It should be fixed in usplash, not worked around in the kernel
<rustyl> then there must be a bug in usplash
<mdz> amitk_: you said FB_VESA was requested from Intel...who?  and was it for usplash or something else?
<mjg59> rustyl: Sure. I need someone to file a bug with hardware information.
<Mithrandir> rustyl: .. or in the VESA implementation on the silicon. :-P
<rustyl> rob_, you have more info... right?
<amitk_> Alek Du and Rob
<mjg59> Mithrandir: Eh. If it works with the kernel code, it can't be that bad
<Mithrandir> mjg59: point.
<amitk_> mdz: it was for usplash problems
<rustyl> well, alek isn't on the meeting (he lives in Shanghi), and i can't go into more details
<jpan_olympia> rustyl, alek is probably on the plane to JF now
<Mithrandir> amitk_: can you take responsibility for talking with Rob and mjg59 and getting it worked out?  If mjg59 says we shouldn't need FB_VESA, I trust him and we should get the usplash bug fixed.
<rob_> i can fill you in
<Mithrandir> ah, there's rob
<rob_> alek found out that usplash wasn't working in the UME kernel and he thought it was because FB_VESA was disabled
<rob_> we have FB_VESA configured on our kernel and it works fine
<mjg59> Enabling FB_VESA and passing vga=whatever will cause usplash to fall back to using the framebuffer interface
<Mithrandir> ok, so we should probably try flipping that and see if it works around the problem, and if so, take it from there?
<rob_> i believe he recompiled your kernel with FB_VESA turned on usplash began to work also on your kernel
<mjg59> If you're not passing vga=, it'll do nothing
<mjg59> (You shouldn't be passing vga=)
<mjg59> There seems to be an issue with our modular vesafb at the moment, tha tresults in it failing to work properly if you pass a vga= option - the bootloader will put the hardware in a vesa mode, but vesafb won't be initialised properly
<mjg59> But again, you shouldn't be passing vga= on the kernel command line
<mjg59> (And if you're not, vesafb won't do anything regardless of how it's built-in)
<Mithrandir> it seems to me this is a bit hard to debug in the meeting without Alek here.
<Mithrandir> given that he's spent some time debugging it
<mjg59> Yeah. If someone could file a bug, we'll work through it.
<amitk_> rob_: bug?
<rob_> alek did file a bug
* rob_ goes to look it up
<robr> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux-meta/+bug/133557
<mjg59> Ah, yeah, got it
<amitk_> It's sparse on details
<mdz> rob_: bugs should be filed on the appropriately versioned kernel package, not on linux-meta.  if you put the expansion of linux-image-`uname -r` into the package box, it should do the right thing
<Mithrandir> let's move on, and you can work on it out of band?
<mjg59> Sure.
<Mithrandir> amitk_: power/thermal stuff is just waiting to be merged and has been blocked on the kernel hilarity earlier in the week?
<mjg59> (Oh, turns out I'd replied to that bug already)
<amitk_> basically yes. Plus the conversion to binary-custom.d. Since I am not entirely comfortable with the size of the patches. I will share it on kernel-team (mjg59, you on it?)
<Mithrandir> ok, sounds good to me.
<amitk_> that's all from me
<Mithrandir> move on to how to get stuff from moblin into Ubuntu, then?
<rob_> mdz: i'll pass the info onto my team. we're still learning how your bug process works. 
<Mithrandir> [TOPIC]  moblin/Ubuntu synchronisation
<MootBot> New Topic:  moblin/Ubuntu synchronisation 
<mdz> I have another meeting in 2m :-/
<bspencer> agoliveira's stomach does too ;)
<mjg59> amitk_: I am
<mdz> rustyl: you took an action to follow up on this from the last meeting; can you summarize the outcome for us?
<rustyl> yes
<agoliveira> bspencer: I alredy had 2 apples, can wait a bit longer ;)
<rustyl> we are changing the way our build process works
<rustyl> currently...
<rustyl> when ever anyone makes a change, we automatically generate a new package and push it into our apt repository
<rustyl> we will be changing this so that the autobuild still happens (to assist in unit testing), but...
<rustyl> the only time the package is pushed to our repository is when the maintainer updates the changelog entry from UNRELEASED to anything else
<Mithrandir> can you have it skip it when it's changed to "gutsy", since that means it'll be in Ubuntu soonish?
<rustyl> then then maintainer is on the hook to also push the package (following whatever process we have) into gutsy
<rustyl> Mithrandir, that shouldn't be too hard
<rustyl> so upload on anything but UNRELEASED or gutsy
<Mithrandir> that, together with purging anything that's older in moblin than gutsy and then publishing Packages.gz in a more readable format somewhere should be a nice "list of outstanding work".
<Mithrandir> or at least, outstanding uploads.
<rustyl> hmmm.... seems like we could have a page on moblin that parses Packages.gz to indicate what is pending updates to gutsy
<rustyl> and it could link directly into the source repository to make it easy to see diffs
<rustyl> HappyCamp, thoughts?
<rustyl> BTW, HappyCamp will be in Boston so you guys can iron out any wrinkless in the new process
<agoliveira> Cool.
<HappyCamp> sorry, I was distracted with trying to book my travel :(
<Mithrandir> sounds good.
<HappyCamp> rustyl, I'm sure we can do that.  It's just 1s and 0s
<HappyCamp> I'll see if I can get time for it.
<agoliveira> Everything is ;)
* HappyCamp thinks we may want to create bugs for these ideas in the moblin bugzilla.
<rustyl> this allows for the moblin work flow to more naturally fit into the ubuntu work flow, but we still need to address the hand off of packages into gutsy
<Mithrandir> rustyl: yes, it doesn't actually make the packages flow faster, but it makes it possible for me to get an answer to the question "is $package outdated based on what's in moblin?"
<rustyl> before we talked about starting some Intel guys on the path the enlightenment (or... motu)
<Mithrandir> yes, that's something I'd still like to pursue.
<rustyl> is there anything else we can do before that?
<Mithrandir> [ACTION]  HappyCamp to create page on moblin.org which lists packages which are newer in moblin than gutsy
<MootBot> ACTION received:  HappyCamp to create page on moblin.org which lists packages which are newer in moblin than gutsy 
<agoliveira> rustyl: path for enlightenment -> http://www.enlightenment.org/
<Mithrandir> rustyl: ideally, I'd like whoever ends up being your point man for that to be in Boston too, since dholbach is going to be there.
<rustyl> hmm... sounds like HappyCamp is up for bat
<HappyCamp> sounds like it.
<rustyl> since he tends to be our build guy, it makes sense
<Mithrandir> and he gets to yell at the rest of you when you make silly mistakes. ;-)
<rustyl> oh crap
<bspencer> HappyCamp enjoys that
<HappyCamp> BOFH!
<Mithrandir> so while this won't be fixed very-short-term, it should be better in the medium term and even less painful long-term
<Mithrandir> we'll also be staffing up so I'm less of a bottle-neck
<Mithrandir> (and Adilson should get upload access once he's been mentored a little bit more)
* rob_ thinks HappyCamp already yells at us for making stupid mistakes
* agoliveira waits to get suppa pawars
<Mithrandir> rustyl: do you think this is adequate, or are there more steps we need to make things happen more quickly?
<Mithrandir> cloning me is unfortunately not really an option. :-P
<agoliveira> Mithrandir: You should think about fatten up a bit so you would be less of a bottle-neck :P
<rustyl> i think it's worth a shot
<rustyl> or would that be shoot
<Mithrandir> shot.
<Mithrandir> ok, sounds good then.
<rustyl> either way... we could have a standing agenda item to revisit how this is working
<Mithrandir> I'll make a note about that.
<Mithrandir> [AGREED]  Revisit moblin/Ubuntu synchronisation next week.
<MootBot> AGREED received:  Revisit moblin/Ubuntu synchronisation next week. 
<Mithrandir> does anybody have any other business before we close?
<mjg59> Mithrandir: From the application point of view, OH have just commited hildon support for their development branch of contacts
<agoliveira> Cool!
<kyleN> I have a question
<Mithrandir> mjg59: yay, that's great news.  Any idea when it'll be in a released version?
<mjg59> Mithrandir: No clue. We may need to package it separately.
<Mithrandir> mjg59: ok, thanks for the update.
<Mithrandir> kyleN: shoot
<kyleN> I've been chatting with various people about firming up graphical themeing. Should this be a formal part of the plan?
<bspencer> kyleN: I think it should
<bspencer> it's big enough
<kwwii> definitely
<bspencer> I didn't know there was "a plan" :)
<kwwii> plan=get everything done
<Mithrandir> yes, it should be written down somewhere as a spec.
<agoliveira> sub_plan = one way or another
<Mithrandir> kwwii: plan: 1. create ubuntu mobile 2. ... 3. profit.
<kyleN> we have for example discussed creating a theme sdk package that uses splicer and other related activities
<kwwii> kyleN: btw, I have been looking into the themeing tools and there is much more than just the slicer...I'll try to document things as I create my first test theme
<kyleN> i sent a summary of our irc chat on this topic to the folks who were involved, should I send this to the list?
<bspencer> Mithrandir: lol 
<Mithrandir> kyleN: would probably be useful, yes.
<kyleN> will do. 
<Mithrandir> it would be useful as a conversation starter, and if kwwii jumps in too, it'd a dialogue rather than a monologue too.
<kyleN> it's been a multipart conversation so far.
<Mithrandir> that's good
<kwwii> kyleN: will you start a spec or should I?
<kyleN> Can you?
<kwwii> sure, no problem
<Mithrandir> ok, any other business?
<agoliveira> I'm ok.
<Mithrandir> adjourned, then
<Mithrandir> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 17:16.
<Mithrandir> not under one hour, but at least under one and a half
<rustyl> that's an improvement
<agoliveira> SO it seems :) GOing lunch now...
<bspencer> not too shabby considering that bspencer didn't send status
<Mithrandir> with status from you + amit, I think we can make an hour next week
<bspencer> Mithrandir: we'll see
<kwwii> so how does one mount a usb stick on a running Q1?
<rustyl> kwwii, i don't have my device in front of me, but you should just be able to drop into a terminal and do a 'mount /dev/sda /mnt' or something similar like using /dev/sda1 if you have partitions on the stick
<rustyl> but that is if you booted off the hd
<rustyl> otherwise it will be sdb
<rustyl> kwwii, long term we will have hal up and running an the automount will take care of this
<kwwii> hrm, I tried to mount pretty much any sd* I could think of and it keeps saying that it is already mounted or /mnt is busy (but /mnt is not mounted to anything)
<kwwii> hehe, now I get it
<rustyl> kwwii, hmmm... maybe hal is already on it
<kwwii> I booted off the hard drive but it find is as sdb
<rustyl> see if it automounted to /media/something
<rustyl> ok
<kwwii> thanks :-)
<kwwii> btw. it would be nice for us non-techies to have some kind of notice when we can update our systems without worries of ruining things (like when the current system won't boot right or such)
<kwwii> and a list of installable apps would be nice too :-)
<rustyl> yes, that should be handled by the nightly build, where we not only kick off a build but also have some amount of testing to find if the image is usable and then a notice when the results look good with something like a change log... or maybe nightly is a little too often
<rustyl> at the very least, it would be nice to have tribe UME builds
<kwwii> right
<kwwii> even better would be a few developers to hold my hand everytime I change something :p
<rustyl> pass that thing... don't be a hog.  some others would like to have a hit or two
<kwwii> ;-)
<agoliveira> This may be interesting: http://www.speech.cs.cmu.edu/pocketsphinx/
<seb128> agoliveira: could you attach the diff rather than copy it to the description?
<seb128> agoliveira: and also explain what you patch is doing?
<agoliveira> seb128: Sure.
<seb128> agoliveira: speaking about the tasks bug
<agoliveira> Ok, just let me organize things here because I made the same mistake with stardict
<agoliveira> Sorry
<seb128> that's ok
<seb128> everybody needs to learn ;)
<seb128> I'm happy to sponsor the update if the bug is done correctly :)
<agoliveira> seb128: Now I saw the mistake. Is there a way to just delete it?
<seb128> agoliveira: the bug? no
<seb128> agoliveira: you can edit the description and replace it with some text
<seb128> and then add an attachment
<agoliveira> Ok, I'll do that hold on.
<agoliveira> seb128: Hmmm... I just noticed that there's a different path if I need to update the code base as well isn't it? In one case, I need to first update stardict to 3.0 and then apply the patch.
<seb128> agoliveira: I'm not sure I understand your question
<seb128> I only looked at the tasks bug
<agoliveira> I'll return to that subject later. It's just something that I saw. Let me fix the others first.
<seb128> the " subscribe ubuntu-universe-sponsors" seems to be not working
<seb128> the team is not subscribed
<agoliveira> seb128: Can you check if I've done correctly this time?
<agoliveira> seb128: and, btw, be gentle with the patch. It's the first time I patch debian/rules so albeit it works, you will probably frown over it :)
<agoliveira> If it's ok, I'll send the rest.
<seb128> agoliveira: looks good
<seb128> let's look at the patch itself now
<seb128> not good
* agoliveira wonders why :)
<seb128> the package use a patch system
<seb128> that's not to put random changes in the diff.gz
<seb128> when you have one change that's ok
<agoliveira> Sorry, don't get it.
<seb128> when you have 10 changes mixed this way updating the patches or dropping them is not easy
<seb128> when, you should have one diff in debian/patches
<seb128> and not change random files in the package
<seb128> the patch is applied at build time
<seb128> like
<seb128> apt-get source tasks
<seb128> cd task-0.11
<seb128> mkdir debian/patches
<seb128> cdbs-edit-patch 01_hildon_build
<seb128> make your changes
<seb128> exit 0
<seb128> and you have a nice patch with what you changed
<agoliveira> Ok but what about when you have a lot of changes?
<seb128> ?
<seb128> cdbs-edit-patch does a copy of the directory
<seb128> you can do as many changes you want
<seb128> run autotools
<seb128> etc
<seb128> when you exit 0 it creates a patch with everything you did
<seb128> having changes directly to the package as you did is not easy to manage
<agoliveira> seb128: Ok, I'm just worried how difficult it would be in the case of packages like claws that needs changes in quite a few files due changes on hildon headers.
<seb128> how is the number of change relevant?
<seb128> cdbs-edit-patch log you into a shell to do your changes
<seb128> you change whatever you want and exit
<seb128> you have to do them anyway
<seb128> directly on the patch or in the edit patch environment
<agoliveira> Oh... I see.
<seb128> only in one case it's mixed to the source
<seb128> and in the other case it creates a nice patch
<Mithrandir> HappyCamp: so, I've been thinking about moving the initramfs scripts out of moblin-image-creator and into ume-config-*.  Do you have any opionion on that?
<seb128> if you don't use patch and have several set of changes after some time it's getting hard to know what change is doing what
<HappyCamp> Mithrandir, I don't really have an opinion on it.  rustyl or rob_ may.
<agoliveira> One last question: above you did cdbs-edit-patch 01_hildon_build. Why 01_hildon_build? Just a random name or it has a meaning?
<seb128> random name
<rustyl> Mithrandir, in the past when we built the initramfs in the buildroot, then it was problematic, but now it's possible
<seb128> we try to use names describing what the patch is doing though
<agoliveira> seb128: Ok. Thanks Sebastian. I'll try that.
<Mithrandir> rustyl: it makes it slightly more easy to get kernel updates going on the device itself.
<rustyl> Mithrandir, HappyCamp , sounds like a good idea actually
<seb128> agoliveira: you're welcome
<Mithrandir> rustyl: ok, I'll implement, test and upload, then.
<Mithrandir> rustyl: I've also been thinking about putting the common config from ume-config-* into a ume-config-common package which could become part of the ubuntu-mobile metapackage, so it'd be installed in "bare" chroots too.
<Mithrandir> and it'd leave us with one place to update common code.
<seb128> agoliveira: for desktop packages we tend to split the code changes and autotools, it's easier to maintain, you might want to do the same
<seb128> agoliveira: the code changes are usually easy to update
<rustyl> so... what do we have so far that is common?
<Mithrandir> rustyl: but if we want to do that, I imagine you guys might want to host it on moblin.org?
<seb128> the autotools changes often don't apply so we just have to run those again rather than trying to figure what is conflicting
<Mithrandir> rustyl: session script, hostname, hostname mangling, interfaces.
<agoliveira> seb128: Thus creating 2 patches?
<Mithrandir> hm, session script is slightly different, but that could be accomodated.
<rustyl> Mithrandir, true
<Mithrandir> ume-gui-start would be common
<rustyl> Mithrandir, we can create a new project
<Mithrandir> I'm not sure if the touchscreen.rules are the same or not.
<rustyl> not the same, but it wouldn't hurt to have rules that don't apply
<Mithrandir> what do you need for that to happen?  "<Mithrandir> yo, plz creat project, kthx!" or something more?
<rustyl> if you create a source tree then i can get it up on moblin
<Mithrandir> sure
<HappyCamp> Mithrandir, Either rustyl or I can put it up there.
<Mithrandir> there's no way to copy files from another git repo, preserving history, is there?
<HappyCamp> Mithrandir, If you clone the repo, and then start from that as your working point then it should have the history.  I would think.
<seb128> agoliveira: that's usually easier to maintain
<agoliveira> seb128: Got it. Thanks.
<Mithrandir> HappyCamp: yeah, but it'd have lots of irrelevant history too.  Oh well, it's not that interesting history.
<HappyCamp> I am not a git expert so not sure if there is a super fancy way to split up just the stuff you want.
<seb128> agoliveira: what did you change? only the configure.ac?
<agoliveira> seb128: On tasks? No, also debian/rules and a few fixes on headers IIRC.
<seb128> agoliveira: you only need to run autoconf in this case
<seb128> looks like you ran automake
<agoliveira> seb128: I don't think so but I don't actually remember right now so I'll just check. 
<seb128> ok
<Mithrandir> HappyCamp: please clone git://git.err.no/ume-config-common to somewhere on moblin.org, then
<HappyCamp> Mithrandir, okay.
<HappyCamp> Mithrandir, what package would you say ume-config-common is most closely associated with?
<HappyCamp> Of the ones on moblin
<Mithrandir> samsung-q1-ultra-config and crown-beach-config?
<HappyCamp> Okay.  Thanks :)  Now I wonder who should be allowed to modify those packages.
<Mithrandir> I'd like to. :-P
<HappyCamp> You will be able to.
<Mithrandir> whoever can write to the other config packages should be fine.
<HappyCamp> Yeah, I'm just thinking who that should actually be.  At the moment it is kind of wide open but we want to restrict things a little bit more.
<Mithrandir> ok
<HappyCamp> We have locked down image-creator and the kernel.
<HappyCamp> And a few other packages.
<Mithrandir> make it a small list and post to dev@ saying "I've made it a small list of people, if you think you should be able to change it, mail me with a rationale"?
<HappyCamp> So that people don't suprise the maintainer with changes.
<Mithrandir> yeah, makes sense.
<HappyCamp> rustyl, rob_ any ideas on who you think should be able to edit the *-config-* packages?
<Mithrandir> : tfheen@xoog ..t/samsung-q1-ultra-config > git log | grep ^Auth | sort -u
<Mithrandir> Author: Alek Du <alek.du@intel.com>
<Mithrandir> Author: Frank Li <Frank.Li@intel.com>
<Mithrandir> Author: Horace Li <horace.li@intel.com>
<Mithrandir> Author: Rusty Lynch <rusty.lynch@intel.com>
<Mithrandir> (with me from various different machines)
<Mithrandir> Author: Tollef Fog Heen <tfheen@err.no>
<HappyCamp> Mithrandir, thanks :)
<Mithrandir> for c-b-c it's a few more:
<Mithrandir> Author: Bob Spencer <bob.spencer@intel.com>
<Mithrandir> Author: Jacob Pan <jacob.jun.pan@intel.com>
<Mithrandir> Author: Rob Rhoads <rob.rhoads@intel.com>
<Mithrandir> (but then, Bob and Jacob only have one commit each, Rob and Rusty have three, Alek has 6, I have 33, for c-b-c)
<Mithrandir> http://rafb.net/p/3rzhAb84.html has the counts
<Mithrandir> if you want to have a cutoff
<HappyCamp> Mithrandir, Thanks.  I have created a group and put rusty, rob, alex, and yourself in it.
<HappyCamp> For all the config packages.  I'll see if anyone complains.
<Mithrandir> possibly mail dev@ saying you've put the restrictions in place too
<HappyCamp> Good idea
<agoliveira> seb128: Much nicer patch now I guess :)
<agoliveira> Tip: I'm a fan of midnight commander since I started with linux and I know that you can press enter on a .tar.gz or .zip (among others) and have it open like a filesystem that you can navigate and even add, delete, modify files deppending of the format. Now I discovered that you can do the same with .patch files :)
* Mithrandir ruffles emacs.
* agoliveira does not need another OS. :)
<stgraber> agoliveira: it's also a good ftp/sftp/smb client
<agoliveira> Seriously, emacs is amazing but I never took the time to really learn it
<agoliveira> stgraber: Yep. I use it for that too.
<agoliveira> Once I had RMS seatted by my side for about 2 weeks and watch him using emacs is really something :)
<agoliveira> ...once you get used with him, of course :)
<kyleN> Ken created the theme SDK spec. Thanks! May I add some specifics?
<kwwii> kyleN: please do
<seb128> agoliveira: the debian directory changes don't go in the patches
<agoliveira> seb128: You mean like the debian/rules changes?
<seb128> yes
<agoliveira> What should I don in this case?
<seb128> the debian directory is copied from one version to the next one
<seb128> edit directly, there is no debian directory conflict on update since that's distribution specific
<agoliveira> and attach the files or what?
<seb128> debian/patches has changes to use on the upstream sources
<seb128> copy this patch to debian/patches
<seb128> edit debian/rules
<kyleN> kwwii. here goes
<seb128> add an another patch with the configure update
* agoliveira feels this is getting more and more complicated :(
<kwwii> kyleN: btw, there are several tools in addition to the slicer...once I figure out how they all work and what exactly they all do I
<kwwii> 'll share that info
<agoliveira> seb128: Sorry, maybe I'm thick but I don't get it. Is this documented somewhere because this page https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SponsorshipProcess does not talk about it.
<seb128> agoliveira: that's basic packaging, you might want to read the MOTU documentation
<seb128> agoliveira: basically edit debian/rules
<seb128> adding your patch without those changes to debian/patches
<seb128> add an another one for the autoconf update
<seb128> update debian/changelog
<seb128> do a debdiff and attach it to the bug
<agoliveira> Sorry it's just that I have a feeling that each time I'm told how to do this I'm told differently.
<asac> agoliveira: you want another opinion ;) ?
<agoliveira> Guys, sorry, I don't want to be mean. I'm probably just too tired.
<seb128> agoliveira: if somebody recommended you to not use a packaging system tell me who ;)
<asac> agoliveira: i don't see what is wrong with what seb128 tells you ... its good old school ;)
<seb128> asac: what else would you recommend? ;)
<asac> nothing :)
<seb128> excellent ;-)
<agoliveira> seb128, asac. Of course there's nothing wrong guys, I'm just a bit frustrated and tired. I'm going to stop for now and return later with a fresh head and go over this again.
<seb128> agoliveira: I can do this update if you want
<seb128> your patch has the changes
<seb128> and the configure update, changelog etc are done quickly enough
<seb128> otherwise we can continue tomorrow
<agoliveira> seb128: Thanks. I really need to learn this for good but we need those applications there badly fast so if you could help me with those ones I'll apreciate.
<kyleN> kwwii: I added a few specifics to the Summary section of the SDK theme spec as fodder ;-)
<agoliveira> Well, I really need to leave for a bit so I'll try again later and we can continue tomorrow as it's probably late for you already.
* agoliveira thinks he's becoming a bit old to this kid of stuff...
<kwwii> kyleN: great, I'll check it out
<kwwii> kyleN: looks good. I fixed one small typo
<kwwii> kyleN: that document will change over time, so no worries about changing it when you feel the need
<kyleN> kwwii, cool!
<kwwii> kyleN: it really might have been worthwhile for us to sit in a room for a day or two to work out the details on this - the tools avaiable turned out to be pretty powerfull but pretty complicated, I am sure we can improve on things
<agoliveira> seb128: Let me get this straight. YOu're telling me to:
<agoliveira> 1) Get the original source
<agoliveira> 2) On that edit debian/rules
<agoliveira> 3) Use cdbs-edit-patch to create a patch for the code itself
<agoliveira> 4) Again to the autoconf stuff
<agoliveira> 5) Once done edit the debian/changelog
<agoliveira> 6) Create package
<agoliveira> 7) debdiff old.dsc new.dsc > diff
<agoliveira> 8) Attach diff to the bug report
<agoliveira> Is that correct or should I just give up and open a fruit store?
<kwwii> agoliveira: do you know if the sound and other applets (in the panel) should start by default?
<seb128> that's correct ;)
<kyleN> kwwii, where are you? (geographically)
<agoliveira> seb128: JHC! Finally! :)
<kwwii> kyleN: Germany - wanna come and have a real beer?
<kwwii> :p
<kyleN> Absolutely!
<seb128> agoliveira: it's getting late here, I'll go to bed soon, maybe you can work on that, attach the debdiff later and I'll upload tomorrow morning if that's ok
<agoliveira> kwwii: Sorry I really don't know.
<agoliveira> seb128: Sure. I have to leave now for some time too.
<agoliveira> Thanks a lot.
<seb128> agoliveira: if some other changes are required I'll explain you what to do when you are around tomorrow and then upload
<kwwii> agoliveira: no worries, just thought you would know more than I
* agoliveira raise his hand to Ken's idea! I love a weissbier!
<kyleN> hmmm.. Oktoberfest? ;-)
<agoliveira> Oktoberfest is for tourists :)
<kwwii> I am about an hour and half north of Munich
<kwwii> agoliveira: totally true
* agoliveira is going to make a cheat-sheet with the list above an glue to the wall!
<kyleN> (darn - someone figured out I'm a tourist )
<kwwii> it is for australians and japanese
<kwwii> it starts in a month though
<agoliveira> kyleN: I live about 100Km from Blumenau where there's even bigger Oktoberfest than Munich's
<kwwii> most people think that oktoberfest is in october but it is not
<kyleN> Now you'll tell me leiderhosen and scnapps ain't really German? ;-)
<kyleN> s/scnapps/schnapps/
<kwwii> kyleN: where I live people really wear lederhosen and beer is not legally alcohol - it is a foodstuff
<kyleN> there's alcohol in beer?
<agoliveira> Some say so...
<kwwii> so we have beer machines in most places of employment and when you go out for lunch your boss will buy you one :-)
<kyleN> No wonder I feel woozy
<kyleN> not to say "boozy"
* agoliveira remembers 3 week's in Augsburg a few years ago :)
<kwwii> agoliveira: yeah but augsburg is not bavaria
<kwwii> close but no cigar
<agoliveira> Close enough :)
<kyleN> agoliveria, kwwii, to ask a dumb question, do you two both speak German?
<kwwii> kyleN: I speak German, and another dialect spoken in the area I live in
<bspencer> and if you've chatted with kwwii you'll find he speaks another dialect of english few know too
<kyleN> lol
<kwwii> bspencer: lol, that is because I have lived here too long :-)
<kwwii> I am not to being used to the english anymore
<kyleN> A friend of mine moved to Berlin five years ago and is happy and never wants to come back
<kwwii> hehe, Berlin is killer
<kwwii> berlin is totally different than the rest of Germany
<kyleN> how so?
<kwwii> hard to describe, the people are not so hard-core old-school German and you have a feeling of freedom that doesn't exist in the rest of Germany
<kyleN> Sounds great. Hope to visit some day.
<kwwii> I spend a few weekends a year in Berlin visiting a good friend of mine (from Spain)
<agoliveira> kyleN: I don't speak german but I want to. I'm brazilian and as such I speak portuguese natively.
<mawhalen> robr - ping
<kyleN> My grandfather came from Germany in the 1920s. My last name is Nitzsche
<kwwii> yeah, I was wondering if you were a philosopher :-)
<kyleN> I think, therefore I spam
<kyleN> ago, you've got me beat: English and a smattering of French
<agoliveira> kyleN: "I drink therefore I am"
<agoliveira> :)
<kyleN> lol
<kyleN> you win
<kyleN> the bartender asked Descartes whether he wanted a beer
<kwwii> kyleN: from your name I would guess that your grandfather came from northern Germany?
<kyleN> Decartes said, I think not, and disappeared
<agoliveira> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=653s-FBXpTA
<kyleN> Leipzig...
<kwwii> my grandfather came from Germany as well, he never spoke english - no wonder I picked it up so quick
<kwwii> Leipzig is pretty nice too, very old-school German in ways
* kwwii lives in the conservative catholic south
<kyleN> MPython youtube clip, ladies and bruces
<kwwii> the best thing about the catholics is that they drink a lot and have lots of holidays :-)
<kwwii> lol, been a while since I saw that one
<kyleN> kwwii, ago, gotta disappear. cheers
<kwwii> cheers, see you soon
<kwwii> bspencer: is there a good reason for the text editor being named "mousepad"? confused me at first (oh, and the icon sucks)
<bspencer> kwwii: ask the people who made it.  We just grabbed it from maemo project
<bspencer> and I made the icon
<bspencer> which entailed blowing up a smaller icon (obviously)
<kwwii> bspencer: trying to cut into my job eh? be carefull or I'll start coding again
<bspencer> if you code as well as I make icons I've got no worries
<kwwii> the last coding I did was making the first boot splash which was a nasty kernel hack - trust me you don't want me coding
<kwwii> btw. I was wondering how I should go about changing the artwork - should I simply start replacing things?
<kwwii> I was thinking about putting some of my test stuff in just to show what is easily changeable and what relies on other parts
<kwwii> kinda afraid that people would complain when I break things though
<bspencer> kwwii: we'll complain if you break things, but not if the graphics change
<bspencer> you could also create a new theme and we could try it out, maybe not hte default until it is usable
<bspencer> the only issue I can think of is that we have something ready for Sept conferences.  So if the theme is totally broken (more than the sorry state of today) then it could be frustrating
<kwwii> well, in a few weeks I can fix most of the major problems (and until now it is mainly tweaking the existing theme)
<kwwii> I would like to get things looking somewhat nice and halfway different than the maemo stuff for september
<kwwii> so that people can at least see the direction we are heading in
<kwwii> but I know that when I start changing things now I will fsck things up for a while
<kwwii> another thing to do would be to use graphics from the correct dirs (we seem to have hacked things into other places)
<kwwii> I thought about sending kyle a list of pics just to scare him ;-)
#ubuntu-mobile 2007-08-24
<gnomeza> lo all
<antoinexp> hello evrybody !
<antoinexp> is there anybody ?
<kwwii> agoliveira: feel like helping me figure out how to use the theme tools? I have a template pic ready
<agoliveira> kwwii: Hi. I can try, sure, but right now I have to finish something to upload. Can you wait a bit?
<kwwii> agoliveira: sure, no hurry
<agoliveira> Cool
<agoliveira> I'll ping you back
<kwwii> cool
<kyleN> my favorite topic ;)
<kwwii> it won't be once you hear how it works :p
<kwwii> the one good thing I've found so far is that the colors used in the theme are also defined in template.png
<asac> kwwii: hi bavarian master ;) ... how is the theming going?
<kwwii> asac: coming right along
<asac> kwwii: i think bob already asked you ... do you expect to run into issues to theme GtkMenus the same way as the other hildon menus?
<kwwii> yes, but I haven't tested things enough yet really
<kwwii> I think it will be a matter of making them look nearly the same
<asac> ok ... no problem ... so you cannot say if its possible or not?
<asac> hmm
<asac> kwwii: is a hildon menu technical different from a gtk menu (from theming pov)?
<kwwii> yes, I think so as the hildon version uses pics to define the look iirc
<kwwii> implementing our test theme should clear up a lot of issues (and raise others)
<agoliveira> kwwii: Hi. Want to take a look at those tools?
<kwwii> agoliveira: love to
<kwwii> basically, take a look at the hildon-theme-bootstrap 
<agoliveira> kwwii: Ok, what can I do for you? I actually just fixed a bug and packaged it :)
<agoliveira> Hmmm... what do you need specificaly?
<kwwii> it seems that this tool downloads a whole environement to build in, and creates a new copy of the existing theme with new names (so one can simply replace pics)
<agoliveira> Yes, so it seems.
<agoliveira> kwwii: Did you check the maemo wiki about this?
<kwwii> yes, all I found was info that there was no documentation yet
<agoliveira> kwwii: Weird... there was some information about how to make themes.
<kwwii> http://maemo.org/development/documentation/how-tos/3-x/howto_customization_bora.html
<kwwii> that is the best I could find
<kwwii> and that has nothing to do with these tools
<kwwii> it does explain the pieces pretty well though
<agoliveira> I see. I'm sorry but I cant' help you with that. Maybe you should ask one of the Nokia guys or at the maemo maling list. They should be able to help you.
<kwwii> I asked the person who made the other theme but I think he is on vacation
<agoliveira> Oh crap...
<kwwii> I promise you that I will not be able to figure this out alone and still get my other work done
<kwwii> :-)
<kwwii> this tool creates a clean package, so if I change the artwork in it (all the names, etc are changed) how can we build this to see if it works?
<agoliveira> kwwii: Let me try to figure something out but I may not have the time to do it for you today as I need to deliver some uploads before you-know-who nail my b**** on a table :)
<kwwii> no problems, I just want to move forward on this sometime soon
<Charliefjohnson> Need help on USB NIC - Drivers loaded but no interface.  (SMC USB NIC on a Menlow) Any ideas ?  
<Mithrandir> Charliefjohnson: ifconfig -a doesn't list it?
<Charliefjohnson> No
<mjg59> Charliefjohnson: Correct driver?
<Mithrandir> what does the last couple of lines of dmesg say when you plug in the driver?
<Charliefjohnson> I'm wrong.  ifconfig -a does show it. 
<Mithrandir> ok, just do dhclient eth0 ; apt-get update ; apt-get upgrade and reboot and it should be fixed.
<Mithrandir> moblin-image-creator is broken and doesn't build images correctly right now and I don't think I have time to fix it before the weekend
<Charliefjohnson> Mithrandir: What about the GUI.   I assume I have to install the flash player first ??
<Mithrandir> yes, you can install flashplugin-nonfree too
<Charliefjohnson> Then is it just a "startx" ??  Or is there some other step to get the GUI up ?  Right now if you "startx", you just get Xwindows with a xterm.
<Mithrandir> no, if it upgraded ume-config-crown-beach, then just reboot.
<Mithrandir> (you should have 0.10)
<Charliefjohnson> I downloaded the 20070824.1 build, so how do I know ? The manifest says ume-config-crown-beach 0.3
<Mithrandir> yeah, probably due to said moblin-image-creator bug.  Just do the apt-get line I wrote above.
<Charliefjohnson> Mithrandir: I'll try it thanks.
<Mithrandir> please tell me if that fixes it.  (It does for me, but independent verification is good)
<Charliefjohnson> Mithrandir: OK. Another dumb question.  Does the current UI have way to get to an xterm ??  
<mjg59> Running it from the menu appears to work
<mjg59> (top left corner)
<Charliefjohnson> mjg59: It isn't there on the ume-config-crown-beach package.  (i.e. the Menlow build instead of  the Samsung.)
<mjg59> Oh, sorry, confused
<Charliefjohnson> Mithrandir: Can we work on getting Menlow on par with Samsung ??  
<Mithrandir> Charliefjohnson: it should be now.
<Mithrandir> Charliefjohnson: it's the item above the network tools, iirc
<Mithrandir> we should just get whatever prevents the titles from being shown fixed.  It's silly.
<Charliefjohnson> Mithrandir: Not there.  The Extras menu just shows Calculator and Network Tools
<mjg59> xterm is in utilities, not extras, IIRC
<Mithrandir> Charliefjohnson: yes.  Click just above it.
<Mithrandir> this is the same way on the q1
<Charliefjohnson> Mithrandir:  OK.  Got it. Thanks
<Charliefjohnson> Mithrandir: Got GUI, Network and even Browser up on Menlow.  Thanks for bearing with me.  
<Mithrandir> Charliefjohnson: ok, sounds good.  No problem
<Charliefjohnson> Mithrandir: Do we expect ume-config-crown-beach 0.10 to be in Monday's daily build ?
<Mithrandir> Charliefjohnson: I hope so.  I need to fix moblin-image-creator, and given it's getting a couple of hours outside my work hours already and I'd like to spend some time with my wife before flying to boston, it might not happen for Monday morning.
<Mithrandir> I'll do a build when I have something working, thouh
<Mithrandir> though.
<Mithrandir> I'll tell you once I know more
<seb128> agoliveira: did you do the tasks changes since yesterday?
<agoliveira> seb128: Hi. DOing it right now. Will upload in a few minutes.
<seb128> agoliveira: I do a work break now, I'll look at the update later
<agoliveira> seb128: Ok, thanks.
<agoliveira> seb128: Tasks sent
<mjg59> I've uploaded contacts-snapshot - this includes a hildon version that will be built on lpia
<mjg59> (Oh, oops - except I think I've probbly forgotten the build-depends for lpia)
<mjg59> There's no ability to edit contacts in the hildon interface yet
<mjg59> With luck we'll get that added over the weekend
<mjg59> Mithrandir: Weirdly, the fan on my Q1 just started working again
<agoliveira> mjg59: Does it have a fan? Didnt notice.
<Mithrandir> mjg59: weird.
<agoliveira> mjg59: Could you please also upload Cheese, even with the bugs you mentioned? I would like to have as much applications as possible available next week.
<mjg59> agoliveira: Yeah, working on it now
<seb128> agoliveira: what is required in cheese?
<agoliveira> seb128: Hildon interface.
<agoliveira> seb128:  mjg59 is working on it.
<seb128> k
<seb128> 0.2.2 has been uploaded today
<seb128> just for information
<Sciri> agoliveira: Will this new updated Cheese that's getting uploaded be configured to use V4L2 instead of V4L1? On our test box Cheese doesn't work out of the box with our camera because the camera is V4L2?
<mjg59> It tries v4l2 by default
<mjg59> It always has done
<agoliveira> seb128: But falls back to VL1
<agoliveira> V$L1
<agoliveira> duh... V4L1 :)
<Sciri> Hmmm...odd. Thanks mjg59, I'll look at it some more. Tony in the office here said that the problem was it didn't work with V4L2...
<Sciri> Something about gstreamer pipelines needing to get configured properly
<agoliveira> seb128: Thanks. BTW, I have a question for you. The hildon support for stardict requeires version 3.0.0 and we have 2.4.8 in the repo so I need to request a sync first and then send my patch?
<seb128> yes
<seb128> and you also need an UVF exception now to get a new version
<seb128> agoliveira: did you try to build this package?
<agoliveira> seb128: Which one?
<seb128> the tasks update I mean
<agoliveira> Yes, sure.
<seb128> weird
<agoliveira> seb128: Why? What`s wrong?
<seb128> you patch configure.ac and don't update configure
<seb128> so the change should not be used during the build
<agoliveira> seb128: Strange... let me check this. Anyway, is the format right this time?
<seb128> agoliveira: yes, the configure.ac should be in the same patch though
<seb128> and the second patch I was mentioning was the autoconf run to update the configure
<agoliveira> So the patch would also to have configure file on it?
<agoliveira> Or a patch to an updated configure?
<seb128> agoliveira: 01_hildon_build.patch would have the changes which are in your 02_autoconf.patch at the moment
<seb128> agoliveira: 02_autoconf.patch is made this way
<seb128> cdbs-edit-patch 02_autoconf.patch
<seb128> autoconf
<seb128> rm -rf autom4te.cache
<seb128> exit 0
<agoliveira> seb128: Weird because AFAICT, I did exactly like that.
<agoliveira> Geez... let me see this.
<seb128> http://launchpadlibrarian.net/8973228/tasks_diff
<seb128> that's the diff you attached
<agoliveira> seb128: Ok, I can see there's a code patch, an autoconf patch, changelog and rules patches. You're telling me that the second pacth is missing a patch for configure file, correct?
<seb128> agoliveira: the build uses the configure, not the configure.ac
<seb128> if you edit the configure.ac you need to run autoconf to get the configure updated
<seb128> and your changes used
<agoliveira> Ok, let me try again
<lenkawell> agoliveira, hi
<agoliveira> lenkawell: Hi Len. Just a sec.
<agoliveira> lenkawell: DId you get my message?
<lenkawell> yes, did you get my reply?
<lenkawell> agoliveira: yes - did you get my reply?
<agoliveira> lenkawell: No. I guess that's because I'm registered user and you're not. I had this problem before. Would you mind to email me? Even better.
<lenkawell> agoliveira: will do
<agoliveira> Thanks
<agoliveira> lenkawell: Got it. Thanks.
<lenkawell> agoliveira: ok, great
<kyleN> agoliveira, how would I figure out what the current control panel applets are (paths and packages)?
<agoliveira> kyleN: Sorry but I don't understand what you're asking.
<kyleN> I recall there was mention at the status meeting ago about new control panel "applets", wasn't there? 
<kyleN> I am wondering what we now have
<kyleN> a "week" ago (left out the word week)
<mjg59> Woo. Cheese working nicely.
<agoliveira> kyleN: Sorry, I didn see youa;;;;;;;[;;;s;.;;;
<agoliveira> kyleN: Gee... sorry again. I didnt see you're message before. You shoud ask some Intel guys. They are working on the applets.
<agoliveira> I think that rob_ can answer that.
<agoliveira> robr ?)
<mjg59> agoliveira: Just doing one last test build, then I'll upload cheese
<agoliveira> mjg59: Cool. Thanks Mathew.
<mjg59> Ok. Cheese works happily with a plug-in webcam
<mjg59> Fits the ui nicely
<agoliveira> Cool. Is this camera recognized as v4l1 or 2
<agoliveira> ?
<Sciri> I had cheese working fine with a Creative Webcam on our menlow test system yesterday...it's just that prototype board camera I can't get Cheese to recognize.
<Sciri> I can get luvcview to see the prototype board camera by giving it a -f luv but cheese complains about /dev/video0 can't read memory...
<mjg59> agoliveira: This is a v4l1 device
<mjg59> I suspect that the issue is driver functionality rather than v4l1/2
<agoliveira> mjg59: Nice. Should work on mine too. I'll give it a try later if I have time.
<Sciri> mjg59: That's what I figured...we're looking into the driver issue now...
<kyleN> rob_, how can I determine what's been added to control panel applets in the last week or so?
<kyleN> Hi, are there any intel folks who could help me get a handle on what's been added in the way of control panel applets in the last week? thx
<kyleN> I'm striking out here in my efforts to get a sense of control panel plugin status ;-)
<seb128> agoliveira: the diff looks ok now, I would rather do the configure.ac change to 01_hildon_build.patch to split code change and autotools run but that's up to you
<seb128> agoliveira: you should likely add Build-Depends on some hildon package on lpia though 
<seb128> I doubt it'll build without it
<agoliveira> seb128: Finally :) Thanks. I'll keep that in mind.
<agoliveira> seb128: Now I'm strugling with quilt :(
<agoliveira> Totally different approach
<seb128> agoliveira: the tasks upload still need that Build-Depends changes before being uploaded
<agoliveira> seb128: Ok. Can you give me a tip on this case that the Build-Depends is specific to an arch?
<seb128> agoliveira: libhildon-1-dev [lpia] 
<agoliveira> seb128: I understadn what to put, just not sure about the syntax of debian/control in this case.
<seb128> I just give it to you
<seb128> s/give/gave
<seb128> what else do you want?
<agoliveira> seb128: I meant, should I create a whole new entry like this:
<agoliveira> Package: tasks
<agoliveira> Architecture: lpia
<agoliveira> Depends: ${shlibs:Depends}, ${misc:Depends}, libhildon-1-dev
<agoliveira> Description: a simple to do manager
<agoliveira> Or this can be simpler?
<Mithrandir> why do you force it to lpia?
<Mithrandir> and why on earth does it depend on libhildon-1-dev?
<agoliveira> Mithrandir: I'm not, I'm trying to understand seb128 instructions.
<seb128> Mithrandir: bug #134336
<seb128> Mithrandir: the patch uses --enable-hildon on lpia, that requires a Build-Depends on some hildon lib, no?
<Mithrandir> seb128: yes, it does, but the line above was Depends, not Build-Depends.
* agoliveira feels like being caught in a middle of a fire fight...
<seb128> agoliveira: hum, no, you just want to add the packages to Build-Depends with a "[lpia] " next to them to specify it's for this arch only
<agoliveira> Sorry
<agoliveira> I miswrote the line
<agoliveira> So it should just be Build-Depends: cdbs (>= 0.4.37), debhelper (>= 5), intltool, libecal1.2-dev, libgtk2.0-dev... libhildon-1-dev [lpia] 
<agoliveira> Not miswrote, I actually misread seb128's message.
<seb128> agoliveira: right
<agoliveira> Cool. Fixing. Sorry for the mess.
<seb128> and probably some others as well
<seb128> I didn't check but the configure has 
<seb128> libosso,  libossomime
<agoliveira> Yep.
<seb128> so you need to add the package shipping those .pc as well
<agoliveira> Hmmm...?
<agoliveira> You're talking about the libs metioned having the .pc files? If so, they are ok already.
<agoliveira> Oh, understand now
<Mithrandir> the point is you need to build-depend on what provides those.
<agoliveira> Mithrandir: Got that. Just got a little confuse on the phase above.
* agoliveira makes a quick break for a coffee
<Charliefjohnson> agoliveira: What chat apps is being considered ??  (are you still on ?)
<agoliveira> Charliefjohnson: Hi. Chat is what sense? irc, im? (if I'm here, I'm on :) )
<Charliefjohnson> instant messaging.  
<agoliveira> This is to be privided by intel according to the last info I have.
<Charliefjohnson> agoliveira: It does say that in the SOW that I'm looking at. Let make sure that is an agenda item next time.  
<agoliveira> Charliefjohnson: Just raise your concern and we can discuss that, no problem but last time we speak abot this, there was concernregardign add stuff like giam/pidgim due problem with patents over the protocols.
<Charliefjohnson> agoliveira: Yes. I just talked to Mauri about it.  Empathy is a possibility right ?
<agoliveira> Yes, technicaly, there's no problem. I can say legally thougt as this kind of silly patents are not valid here in Brazil but if you use jabber you will fine AFAIK.
<agoliveira> s/can/can't
<_Fanfare_> Hi there
<_Fanfare_> anyone with wacom knowlege here?
<_Fanfare_> any chance to get my usb wacom tablet Bus 004 Device 002: ID 056a:0090 Wacom Co., Ltd to work?
#ubuntu-mobile 2007-08-25
<_Fanfare_> no one here?
<ToddBrandt> Hi KyleN, sorry I didn't get your message earlier
<ToddBrandt> There are currently 9 of them in there, and they come straight from gnome-control-center
<ToddBrandt> Network Proxy, About Me, Background Properties, Font, Menu & Toolbars, Screen Resolution, Sound Properties, Keybindings, and Keybord Properties
* mjg59 gets suspend/resume working on the Q1
<Mithrandir> mjg59: oh, shiny.
<ziritrion> hiya
<ziritrion> anyone?
<ziritrion> ...
<ziritrion> k, I'll be back some other time
#ubuntu-mobile 2007-08-26
<IamEthos> is Ubuntu mobile being planned to work on Palm Tungsten devices?
<Mithrandir> IamEthos: it's not part of our initial set of devices we target.
#ubuntu-mobile 2008-08-18
<ChickenCutlass> test
<Celtiore> hi from france
<Celtiore> i have a question please
<Celtiore> i want to know if gigabyte mid528 or aigo p8860 mid, work correctly with ubuntu mobile ?
<lool> Celtiore: Probably, but might require some fiddling
<lool> Celtiore: It seems it the later runs midinux, so you quite certainly have all bits available to make Ubuntu MID work on them
<Celtiore> thanks you
<lool> Not sure about the gigabyte one
<lool> It's Atom as well at least
<lool> The problematic question is usually graphics, especially 3D
#ubuntu-mobile 2008-08-20
<DamageInc> Hola, alguno habla espaniol?
<DamageInc> Hi! some know if is possible install Ubuntu Mobile in palm treo 750v?
<CShadowRun> DamageInc please don't pm people without asking permission
<CShadowRun> keep your questions in the channel
<CShadowRun> DamageInc you need to find out what processor you have in the palm treo
<DamageInc> ok im sorry
<Alibb> DamageInc, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freescale_DragonBall
<DamageInc> ok thanks to all
<CShadowRun> DamageInc i'm adding you to ignore now
<DamageInc> hello I apologise to everyone, I want to know if I can install UME on a Treo 750v with 300 MHz Samsung SC32442A processor
<GrueMaster> Sure, instructions are in the FAQ; link at the top of the IRC channel.
<DamageInc> ok thank you very much for your answer, sorry
<latouche> hi everyone
<latouche> we were speaking on #navit about doing regular navit packages
<latouche> and someone told me that you may or may not be looking for a gps application
<persia> latouche: "May or may not" is fairly accurate.
<persia> More generally, we source packages in Ubuntu, so the first step would be to make sure that the navit in Ubuntu was up-to-date and in good shape.
<persia> After that, one would open a bug against the "mobile-meta" package asking for inclusion in the seeds.  Generally, we like to see a few successful test reports that the application integrates well in the environment, and meets some set of users specific needs in the bug.
<persia> Note that it might be excluded only because of size, as there are some users of the mobile seeds that only have about 2G of disk available, including space for user data, so we tend to be cautious about adding too much.
<latouche> ok
<latouche> the application is not really big (~500K)
<latouche> what take the more space is maps
<latouche> and it depends on user needs
<latouche> so we will first see to have the package included in Ubuntu main branch
<persia> That makes sense.  Including a small application with a good interface telling people what needs to be done for local maps is the sort of solution that is likely to be approved.
<persia> It first needs to get included in the Ubuntu repositories generally.  It doesn't have to be on any of the CDs or anything.
<latouche> for now, the packages will be build from the svn, the last released version is too old
<persia> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopment/NewPackages describes the process.  The further that you're willing to push it, the faster it will likely happen.
<latouche> ok
<persia> We can accept VCS snapshots, although we prefer releases.  I don't suppose you're close to something that might be a release milestone that could be distributed as tar.gz, are you?
<latouche> i will speak of that with the others
<persia> It needn't be a "final production release", but at least something that you're willing to help support for bugfixing, etc. for the 18 month support cycle of an Ubuntu release (really, about 22-24 months considering our freeze schedules)
<latouche> it's improving quite rapidly those days so maybe something will be released soon or later
<latouche> ok
<persia> Most of the time, we don't need heaps of support, but it's nice when we can ask and expect to get an answer other than "Just grab the newest SVN and see if that fixes it".
<persia> Excellent.  Now, an unfortuntate point:
<persia> Our freeze for the next cycle starts 28th August, so it may be a little late to try to get it in for the October release.  Things look much better for the April 2009 release.
<latouche> are you speaking of ubutu mobile or ubuntu ?
<persia> Both :)  They have the same schedule.
<latouche> ok :)
<latouche> as you said, it may be too late
<persia> Unfortunately.
<GrueMaste1> persia (or someone):  how can I set up a chroot build environment for intrepid, similar to a MIC project?
<persia> GrueMaste1: Well, I've just been experimenting with that today, but I don't think there is an official answer, because it's not done yet.
<GrueMaste1> Ok.  I need to at least get the lpia kernel headers so I can port the video drivers.
<persia> What I did was to grab https://code.launchpad.net/~stevenk/livecd-rootfs/trunk and run `livecd.sh -d intrepid ubuntu-mid` from inside an intrepid/lpia chroot I had created with debootstrap.
<GrueMaste1> Ok, I'll  give that a whirl.
<persia> That created a squashfs for me, but I've not yet really tested it much.  Note that doing it that way doesn't currently create an image that installs, but it should create one that boots.
<persia> I've been fussing with the installer, and hope to have something for the meeting tomorrow.
<persia> (but it doesn't work for <600 vertical pixels yet)
<GrueMaster> What I tried earlier was to build a Hardy snapshot, then change the sources.list* to point to intrepid.
<GrueMaster> But it didn't get the kernel.
<persia> I encountered some oddities about the kernel when I was testing ~12 hours ago, but I don't really understand either what happened or the implications of it.
<GrueMaster> ï»¿/msg NickServ identify 1GrueM
<persia> Ideally, the procedure you used should work if performed in a chroot, but may not work if performed on an actual device (due to the filesystem layering, etc.)
<GrueMaster> That's where I tried.
<GrueMaster> In a MIC project area
<persia> Hmm.  It might be related to the general changes in how kernels are being maintained for intrepid, but again, I'm not entirely sure.
<persia> GrueMaster: Looking in my debootstrap intrepid/lpia chroot, it seems that the "linux" package pulls a lpia kernel.  I'm not sure if that matches the name that was used in hardy.
<GrueMaster> I have noticed the kernel packages seem a bit off.  The last lpia was 2.6.26-1, but the current main linux-headers is 2.6.26-5
<GrueMaster> It is.
<persia> RIght, that's probably still related to issues with settling down ABI transition processing as part of the migration to the new per-architecture kernel maintenance plan.
<persia> (and yes, it ought be fixed: please file a bug)
<emgent> nxvl: o/
<nxvl> emgent: :D
<nxvl> what's the password for ume user?
<nxvl> on the kvm image
<nxvl> nevermind, found it
<nxvl> did someone know what do i need to run netbook remix on a kvm?
<nxvl> just install ubuntu and install the software from the ppa?
<ogra> likely
<lool> GrueMaster: Do change nickserv password; this chan is publicly logged
<ogra> nxvl, but you wont have much fun with UNR without composite
<lool> GrueMaster: The bulk of the work for a chroot would be debootstrap; what persia told you are good instructions to get a Ubuntu MID environment though
<nxvl> ogra: tno other way?
<GrueMaster> Yea, I know.  Stupid Pidgin forwarded my msg to the room instead.
<lool> GrueMaster: If you're under hardy and need intrepid, you can install intrepid's debootstreap under your hardy box and then create a chroot with it
<ogra> nxvl, the launcher is written in clutter 
<ogra> 100% composite usage
<lool> GrueMaster: Otherwise, you could play with VMs; we have tools to create Ubuntu MID VMs or generic hardy/intrepid VMs
<GrueMaster> I'm working on that now.  My build machine was actually Fiesty, but I'm in the process of upgrading to Hardy now.
<lool> The tools are ubuntu-vm-builder (generic) and virtual-mobile-builder (Ubuntu MID wrapper around uvb)
<lool> GrueMaster: Hmm yeah definitely a good idea
<nxvl> ogra: but the question is: do i need to change the repos or just add software to my normal ubuntu instalation
<ogra> there is a howto on the UNR launchpad page
<nxvl> ogra: https://edge.launchpad.net/netbook-remix <- this one?
<ogra> nxvl, right
<nxvl> ogra: thank you
 * nxvl HUGS ogra 
<ogra> :)
<GrueMaster> finally, my system is functional again after upgrading to Hardy.
<GrueMaster> I'm going to save the msg log so I can follow the steps for building an intrepid build environment.
#ubuntu-mobile 2008-08-21
<persia> So, I'm working on a new ubuntu-mid-default-settings package that will replace ume-config-* for intrepid.
<persia> Basically, I'm presuming that xinput hotplug should be doing the right thing for intrepid, so we really only need the startup and shutdown stuff.
<persia> Some of the environment creation stuff will become the responsibility of the installer.
<persia> Also, looking at the moblin-applets package, it seems to do very policy-incompliant with gconf: if anyone can sort that out to work for arbitratily named users, it would be great.
<lool> persia: The gconf defaults mechanism in dh_gconf is not user specific, that would be a good option
<persia> lool: Sounds good.  Is that something you have time to chase?
<lool> Depends for when it's due  :-)
<lool> Another thing I noticed is that moblin-applets is using the /desktop/gnome namespace
<lool> There might be a good reason for that such as relying on the real GNOME applets to change the keys
<persia> I wouldn't think that changes to the postinst to be policy compliant would violate FeatureFreeze, so we ought be safe there.
<persia> That said, I'd only extremely limited understanding of why it's doing what it's doing.
<lool> persia: I poked dev@moblin.org on this stuff; I fear we're putting the finger in "cleaning up GConf key usage" across moblin
<lool> persia: What I fear is that we approach feature freeze and hildon related changes to Ubuntu main packages end up being considered feature additions
<persia> That makes sense.  I don't think we can clean everything for intrepid, but I don't think anyone else uses moblin-applets, so it ought be OK.
<persia> In other words, as long as the chances of breaking anything for anyone else are nil, and we're dealing with something so incredibly messy in one of our packages, I think it will make our lives easier to fix it.
<lool> persia: I'll try to remember to move these to dh_gconf
<lool> persia: Did you rename ume-config-common already?  Are you aware it's an upstream module?
<persia> I wasn't renaming, so much as dropping it entirely in favour of something else.  I wasn't aware it was an upstream module.
<persia> My specific rationale is that I don't think that we get any useful benefits from hardcoding each config: it essentially means that we can't create images that work properly on arbitrary hardware,
<lool> persia: Anyway, I agree it should die; I just mention it FYI
<persia> lool: OK.  I was afraid you had some reason to keep it.
<ogra> you guys want global gconf changes ? why dont you do them in /usr/share/gconf/defaults/ ?
<ogra> (thats why my gnome MID desktop will do at least, i think we use it stadardized in the main distro as well)
<persia> ogra: I thought you were working on ubuntu-mobile, not ubuntu-mid.  Am I mistaken?
<ogra> no, i still get the wording wrong :)
<ogra> though what i understood from davidm was that he wants me to do http://people.ubuntu.com/~ogra/ume/
<ogra> which is definately closer to -mid atm
<persia> Hrm.  I thought we were using hildon again for -mid, and using that for -mobile.  We definitely need to block out and document the featureset better next cycle.
<ogra> definately
<ogra> but next cycle we wont be busy with merges and PPA moving for 2/3 of the development time
<ogra> and we will be able to write proper specs in advance
<persia> Well, there's that.  Also, next cycle we'll get to start at the beginning, rather than having our release be well after UDS.
<ogra> right
<lool> ogra: That's where we intend to have them
<persia> OK. I lose.  I wanted to make the system not depend on the username, but without depending on the username, we can't autologin.
<persia> That said, I'd like to change the username from "ume" to "ubuntu".  Any objections?
<lool> ogra: dh_gconf is the best way to put them in /usr/share/gconf/defaults
<ogra> ah, i usually just put the file with keys/values in there and run update-gconf-defauls :)
<ogra> i bet thats what dh_gconf does in postinst then 
<ogra> persia, since ubuntu is what we use on the liveCD that sounds fine
<lool> ogra: Putting the files and running update-gconf-defaults is what dh_gconf does!
<lool> But then you must have missed its introduction as both tools were written at the same time
<ogra> heh
<ogra> i didnt do that from packages since ages :)
<ogra> (its about a year ago that i touched edubuntu-artwork last, which does these settings for edubuntu ... in the classmate the installer puts the file in place and calls the command)
 * ogra-Q1 hates daily disconnects
<ogra-Q1> wow, cellwriter really makes a good kbd
<persia> ogra-Q1: screenshot?
<davmor2> ogra-Q1: isn't it cellwriter that is predictive or is that something else?
 * ogra-Q1 is in "eat your own dogfood" mode today
<ogra-Q1> davmor2, cw is actually writing recognition... but comes with an internationalized kbd as well
<davmor2> ogra-Q1: okay cool :)
<ogra-Q1> the o ly drawback is that it sts on top with metacity
<ogra-Q1> persia,  http://people.ubuntu.com/~ogra/cellwriter.png
<persia> ogra-Q1: Looking very nice indeed :)
<ogra-Q1> with  a bitmore trainig and better screen calibration i could rellally type like with any other kbd
<ogra-Q1> i got relly fast within 10 mins of usage
<lool> Meeting in 5 mns in #ubuntu-meeting
<lool> Meeting starting soon in #ubuntu-meeting
<emgent> lool: ok thanks
<nxvl> good afternoon
#ubuntu-mobile 2008-08-22
<iwein> ne1 here know if MID will work on EEE?
<iwein> http://forum.eeeuser.com/viewtopic.php?pid=331892
<persia> iwein: We've had lots of people ask that question.  So far, I can say that it appears to be troublesome to do, and that most Eee users prefer something designed for a lower-DPI environment.
<iwein> ok thx, that probably saves me a few hours ;)
<persia> Please feel free to try installing the McCaslin image: I understand it ought to mostly work.  If it does, or it definitely doesn't, please let us know.
<iwein> I could at least give it a go, it's paperweight now neway
<iwein> I'll get back on that today then probably
<StevenK> persia: What are the packages remaining in the PPA that have older version in Intrepid?
<iwein> I'm trying to install McCaslin image on my EEE, seems that it is hanging on the install already.
<iwein> i don't know if that qualifies as mostly working, but I guess not
<persia> iwein: That would mean it wasn't working.  Thanks for the feedback.  I'll tell people that it can't be installed in the future.
<persia> I suspect there is a way to jam it in place, with a net install or something, but there's no installer available that supports that, which makes it awkward.
<persia> I don't expect that intrepid Ubuntu MID will work on the Eee, although there's work on an Ubuntu Mobile that would be nice for those devices (although I can't promise it will be ready in time).
<iwein> yes, I didn't really dig very deep, so I suspect there are ways to get it running
<iwein> I'll just go for a standard Ubuntu and dress it down. there is plenty of doco's on that.
<persia> Indeed, which is probably better for that device anyway.
<persia> Ubuntu MID is really designed for 4-6" screens, and things don't look so ideal on a 7" or 9" device.
<iwein> true, but it's always fun to try it anyway :D
<iwein> I don't think a full Gnome desktop is going to look very pretty either
<persia> No, it needs something inbetween.  Hence, Ubuntu Mobile.
<persia> Unfortunately, that's still in heavy development, and for intrepid onwards only, so I can't tell you want to install now.
<iwein> yep, it all makes sense. I'll be waiting for a beta on that and see what I can do with a standard install for now. Seems like the least hassle option at the moment
<iwein> hey, while I was chatting the install moved on cancel that negative, it was just really slow apparently.
<iwein> I'll get back later to confirm if it works for real
<iwein> it smells a little like burning plastic in here, but I'm booting ubuntu... hehe
<persia> Cool!  Yeah, it's not very interactive, and needs to format the disk, but it's great news that it seems to be working.
<iwein> yes, I just thought it would be faster, so if there would be some output you'd get less false negatives I guess
<iwein> so, mostly working seems right. It looks really slick actually
<persia> iwein: You mean it does just work on the Eee?  That's excellent news.  Thank you very much for being patient enough to try it.
<iwein> but, and this is a bit of a bummer, I have no mouse whatsoever. The eee doesn't have a touchscreen, so I need to find a way to install mouse drivers without a mouse I guess.
<persia> If you can get a terminal, you can modify /etc/X11/xorg.conf-samsungq1ultra to not hardcode the touchscreen settings, and it ought work that way.
<persia> Try switching to a VT with Alt-F2 or some such.
<iwein> I'm a bit of a rookie here, so bare with me, this is going to take time
<persia> Not hardcoding stuff is another intrepid goal.
<iwein> Alt-F2 doesn't do anything, Ctrl-Alt-Bksp restarts gnome, and spacebar selects home. I do have keyboard, but am clueless as to what to do with it
<persia> Oh, that's my mistake.  Ctrl-Alt-F2
<iwein> yep
<iwein> told you I was a rookie ;)
<iwein> is there a user/pass I should try
<iwein> or a document I should read before asking :)
<persia> User "ume", no password
<persia> Heh.  Better to ask.  If you get somewhere where there's a document, I'll let you know.
<iwein> yeah, i'm modifying xorg, but with that tiny EEE keyboard it's going to take me a while...
<iwein> are you sure about that filename?
<iwein> got it
<persia> Something like that.  /etc/X11/xorg.conf is ignored entirely (and yes, this is another bug)
<iwein> ok, so I should change the input device right?
<persia> RIght.  In the Core Pointer section, you want /dev/input/mice rather than the touchscreen.
<iwein> I don't see a Core Pointer section.. I see a section for Mouse0 and one for touchscreen
<iwein> should I just remove the touchscreen section?
<persia> Let me look at the config again
<persia> Oh, sorry, I've given you poor advice (because I hadn't looked at the config in a while).
<persia> Change /dev/input/mouse2 to /dev/input/mice in the Mouse0 InputDevice section, and try restarting X.
<iwein> ok
<ogra> you might want to drop the touchscreen though
<ogra> if there is no device there is not much pint in having a config for it
<ogra> *point
<ogra> specifically from the ServerLayout section
<iwein> yep, i did that and removed the whole section too
<iwein> restarting now
<ogra> and you likely want a section for asynaptics touchpad
<ogra> *a synaptics
<ogra> guessing thats what the eee comes with by default
<iwein> yep, but I have a usb mouse attached, should that work out of the box?
<iwein> it does
<ogra> yes, with /dev/input/mice
<iwein> hrm, x doesn't come back up
<iwein> i can see the screen with the mouse pointer > black > repeat
<iwein> I guess I made a mistake somewhere
<iwein> ok that was annoying, it kept restarting X or something. I just gave it a pkill X and now I'm back at the terminal.
<persia> iwein: How did you restart X?
<iwein> first a reboot, then with X command
<persia> X command?
<iwein> it was complaining about coming up from hibernation, so I suspect that there is something wrong there
<iwein> yes, if you type X it starts X
<persia> No, it's just that the hibernate scripts are similarly hardware-specific unfortunately.
<iwein> i looked for init.d/gdm or xdm, but the were not there
<persia> Try `sudo stop session; sudo start session` to restart X, which ought to launch the desktop.
<iwein> well, I'm still looking at the terminal, should I do something to get back at the desktop?
<persia> Alt-F7 ought get you back to VT 7, which ought have the desktop
<iwein> yes, I tried that, but that gives me a black screen too
<iwein> (showing the output for Alt-F7 to be precise)
<iwein> tty1 has some errors on it: FreeFontPath: ... refcount is 2 should be 1
<persia> Hmm.
<ogra> thats ok
<ogra> check the end of /var/log/Xorg.0.log
<ogra> it should tell you about the exact errors
<ogra> font path issues are not perventing X from starting
<ogra> *preventing (heh)
<iwein> that was helpful: Undefined input device, that could be it :D
<ogra> how does your ServerLayout section look like ? 
<ogra> any input devices in there you dont have defined ? 
<iwein> yes, I commented out SendCoreDevice and now x is starting fine
<iwein> with mouse :D
<ogra> good
<persia> Excellent.
<iwein> I'll look up the def for asynaptics later, next thing is getting wifi to work, I think i saw a reference on that.
<iwein> first I'll celebrate with a coffee
<iwein> wow, the touchpad already works I'll have two coffees then
<persia> ogra: Do you happen to know when dh_gconf needs to be called?  I'm calling it in binary/$(package):: with CDBS, but I'm not getting a postinst or prerm.
<ogra> in rules
<ogra> but not sure where in cdbs 
<ogra> i'm not a big cdbs fan/user ... only if i have to
<persia> But it belongs in the binary rule, doesn't it?
<ogra> err, i'D put it into install
<persia> Hmm.  I'll try that.
<ogra> or if its an indep package at least into binary-indep
<persia> Right.  I am an idiot today.  This is why I prefer tracking down things that a broken for someone else: they already thought of all the obvious things, and I only have to look at what's left :)
<ogra> :)
<persia> Still, putting it in install: worked, so now we can actually launch X in intrepid \o/
<ogra> yay
<ogra> hmm, having working calibration shouldnt actually be to hard with hal-input .... hal-set-property is callable from userspace
<ogra> might need an additional hal handler
<ogra> and a file to store the values
<ogra> whch this hal handler reads then 
<ogra> if i get that going it shuldnt be to hard to just use different touchscreen drivers either :)
<iwein> im fiddling with the EEE network drivers now, but it is a bit of a nag because don't have build-essentials. doco's I find assume that you already have network, quod non. is there a shortcut?
<persia> The network drivers depend on DKMS now?
<iwein> dkms?
<iwein> http://www.ubuntu-eee.com/index.php5?title=Getting_the_network_drivers_working_on_the_901
<iwein> those native ralink drivers need to be built with make
<persia> You're runing Ubuntu MID on a 901?  Isn't that the large screen one?
<iwein> no it's the 7, but the procedure is the same afain
<persia> OK.  I have a 7" device, and Ubuntu MID isn't so bad, but I just couldn't imagine it on a 9"
<iwein> i have 7'' too
<iwein> the instructions are for 9, but the basic steps are the same
<iwein> you need to make; make install, that's the problem
<davmor2> persia: I've seen UNR running on both 7 and 9 inch and it looks great on both :)
<persia> davmor2: Reeally?  Some of the icons were getting blocky on my 7", which is why I thought they'd be especially bad on the 9".
<persia> Mind you, I've seen Ubuntu Desktop on a 3.7", which has quite a different set of issues :)
<iwein> well, it's superbly better than the Xandros stuff they ship them with
<persia> iwein: I don't find any shortcuts from a quick look about.  It appears you need to compile it.
<davmor2> persia: No at LugRadioLive Uk 08 on of the exhibitors was Efficient PC (Ubuntu Partner IIRC) and he had installed UNR via manual hacks and said it was much better on the smaller screen due to the add space you gained.  Then proceeded to ask me about when UNR would be released as a really desktop and save him the hassle of the manual hacking :)
<persia> If you've a desktop and some way to copy files from the desktop to the laptop (e.g. USB key), you might either add packages to the Eee, or compile it on the desktop (remember to compile for the lpia architecture).
<iwein> yes, that's what I'm doing.
<iwein> it is a hassle though with one usb stick :D
<persia> davmor2: Oh, UNR is rather different than Ubuntu MID (although the color scheme is similar), and yes, it's better tuned for that size device.
<iwein> I think I should go for UNR. MID isn't really a good fit for the EEE (although it does look ok). Mostly works is a fair assessment I think.
<nxvl> good morning
<GrueMaster> Any truth to the buzz about 2.6.27 in Intrepid?
<mkrufky> i think that's what they've decided, GrueMaster
<persia> There's buzz, but I'm not sure the decision is final yet.  Depends on feedback.
<persia> The current thread on the mailing list includes two positive comments and no negative comments, so it's likely we'll get an update.
<ogra> depends on kernel.org as well
<iwein> @persia @ogra I was here 10 hours ago when trying MID on EEE. I tried some different options after that and if anyone asks you should point them to http://www.ubuntu-eee.com/
 * ogra knows ubuntu-eee.com ... i assumed you did too 
<iwein> with literally no extra work everything is just working
<iwein> yes, i knew, but didn't try yet
 * iwein is better for trying MID too
<ogra> i'D love to see that integrated in the main distro though
<ogra> instead of running as separate project 
<iwein> yes, and you guys have the .img done way better. I couldn't prepare the usb from a mac.
<iwein> it feels like cheating, but it saves a lot of time
<iwein> (meaning the use of http://www.ubuntu-eee.com/
<iwein> )
<shishirm1> has any1 tried ubuntu netbook remix??
<iwein> neway, thx for the help today and kudos. hope you guys support the iPhone soon ;)
<ogra> unlikely :)
<ogra> unless all the HW specs get revealed by apple 
 * iwein was expecting something like that
<shishirm1> ï»¿ogra: hey have u guys tried ubuntu netbook remix??
<ogra> we'll likely start supporting arm at some point in the future
<ogra> shishirm1, its only four apps, feel free to try
<iwein> I didn't find netbook remix very mature, although it looks promising
<shishirm1> ya but i wanted to know i can switch back to gnome as usual if i dont like it!!
<shishirm1> has any1 tried that
<ogra> you can remove the four apps indeed
<ogra> and revert the config changes you need to make
<ogra> https://launchpad.net/netbook-remix
<shishirm1> i had put ume for a while on my khojinsha sh6 looks good waiting for a proper release
<ogra> its not clear that there will ever be a public release 
<ogra> its for OEMs
<ogra> so you might hav to buy a device with it preinstalled and customized for the device 
<ogra> but who knows ... there might be someone making a public release for tesing or so
<shishirm1> ok
<ogra> (its called -remix- ) 
#ubuntu-mobile 2008-08-23
<ogra> mumble
<ogra> Q1 in intrepid is a pain
 * ogra doesnt get the wlan to connect
<persia> We're using mumble now?
<ogra> heh
<persia> Which arch are you running?
<ogra> well, i got my complete custom gnome setup ported 
<persia> Cool!
<ogra> all seems to be fine 
<ogra> incl touchscreen with new .fdi file (i'm missing some options though)
<ogra> but i cant a) get the ath9k driver to scan any networks and b) the conncet attempts just die 
<ogra> oh, and i just took -generic
<persia> Odd.  I thought that most of that was ironed out now.  Then again, we did have an Eee user in here recently with similar issues (but that was hardy)
<ogra> manual bootstrapped, remover firefox and evolution, added devilspie, cellwriter, thunderbird, midbrowser, xautomation and the evtouch driver 
<ogra> the rest is only configuration and the .fdi file for the touchscreen
<ogra> *removed
<persia> Nifty.  Any other changes planned?  Have you pushed that to the seed yet?
<ogra> i need to roll the config into a gconf and panel-defaults file and need to create three .desktop files
<ogra> and the theme needs some small adjustments (wider scrollbars and rulers )
<persia> ubuntu-mobile-default-settings?
<ogra> well, should that actually be -mobile ? 
<ogra> it rather resembles ume 
<ogra> (and is definately touchscreen centric)
<persia> Yes, it should be "mobile", as ubuntu-mid-default-settings is the stuff for the mid seed, and we've only two seeds to play with now.
<persia> Maybe we can make more seeds for intrepid+1, but I wonder just how many flavours we really want to support :)
<persia> As far as I'm concerned, -mobile is for the 7-9" devices, many of which have touchscreens.  Things like your Q1U or my SR.
<ogra> well, i'd see this one rather as a hildon replacement (no idea how it works on 800x480 though)
<ogra> ok, then thats fine 
<persia> Umm, yeah.  Replacing hildon sounds good, but I don't think we can do that by Thursday.
<alienseer23> if this is the right place to ask: I am running ubuntu netbook remix on my eeepc, and would like to be able to log out of gnome, and switch sessions into a regular gnome desktop from time to time, but am unclear on how to do that, since netbook remix becomes the default gnome sesion. How?
<persia> alienseer23: Not precisely the right place, but I'm not sure where else to send you.
<alienseer23> h'm
<persia> That said, I've not personally run the netbook remix, so have no idea  Sorry.
<ogra> well, you likely need a new user who doesnt have the four netbook apps defined as desktop
<alienseer23> ogra, I thought of that, but isn't there a way to be able to pick different session settings saved AS a new session at login?
<ogra> no idea if that works with UNR ... 
<ogra> its very intrusive ... once you have the launcher running it wants o stay
<alienseer23> doesn't it shut off when you log out of gnome?
<ogra> i guess so ... but its still autostarted i think
<ogra> we're all not big in UNR here ... i tried it once
<ogra> its a remox after all
<ogra> *remoix
<ogra> bah
<ogra> *remix
<alienseer23> yeah, I was thinking the same thing, not really a remix
<alienseer23> oops
<alienseer23> not what you said
<alienseer23> it's essentially just a different launcher
<persia> No, it is really a remix.  It confusingly has the name "Ubuntu" in it, but it's just a few extra apps stuck in, and some different settings.
<persia> Exactly what those are, or how they work is something not well known here, although for many cases, it's the same apps, so we can try to help.
<ogra> but essentially its trageted towards OEMs to be preinstalled on devices and customized for that HW
<alienseer23> there are 2 things added to start-up: maximus and UME desktop launcher, that and a few panel add ons. Is there a way to create a totally different session, using the same login, that would simply use the original defaults?
 * ogra doubts that
<ogra> you likely need a second user 
<alienseer23> drat
<ogra> but try it
<alienseer23> is there a place you could direct me that could help me figgure out How to try that?
<ogra> not really, as persia said ... UNR has no specific channels or something
<alienseer23> ok
<alienseer23> thanks for your help, I'm going to just add another user
<alienseer23> ciao
<ogra-Q1> yay
 * ogra-Q1 waves
<persia> Cool.  What was it?
<ogra-Q1> ath9k doesnt work,but ath_pci does
<ogra-Q1> ath_pci is still in lrm
<ogra-Q1> but not defaulted to
<ogra-Q1> anyway, Q1 is perfect now :)
 * ogra-Q1 goes to prepare dinner and do some cooking
<ogra-Q1> oh, and according to the changelogs 2.6.27 ath9k works with this card 
<ogra-Q1> so lets hope ben does the switch actually
<ogra-Q1> persia, btw http://paste.ubuntu.com/39954/
<ogra-Q1> for the tochscreen
<persia> Beautiful work.  It's nice to see an entire flavour come alive over such a short time.  Let me know when you've the seen and task ready, and I'll try an install on my Kohjinsha.
<ogra> http://people.ubuntu.com/~ogra/ubuntu-mobile-intrepid.png
<persia> Looking very nice indeed.
#ubuntu-mobile 2009-08-17
<xcrileyx> Hello
<xcrileyx> Is anyone here than can help a newb out?
<xcrileyx> ?
<xrileyx> good morning, is anyone here that could help out a new guy?
<ogra> !ask
<ubottu> Please don't ask to ask a question, simply ask the question (all on ONE line, so others can read and follow it easily). If anyone knows the answer they will most likely reply. :-)
<xrileyx> well i did last night
<xrileyx> and on one responded
<xrileyx> so i just wanted tos ee if anyone was in today
<xrileyx> Im looking to build a carputer, and to save space i was going to run the UMPC from a usb flash
<xrileyx> is the only option for doing that a "Live Session"
<ogra> you cant do a normal install to the flash indeed
<xrileyx> dang.. not even if i get one of those 16gb drives?
<ogra> sorry, typo
<ogra> s/cant/can/
<xrileyx> oh.. so i CAN get ubuntu to install to a flash and recognize the flash as my main drive?
<ogra> sury 
<ogra> *sure
<xrileyx> I know that the upsides to this are: less space required, less heat, and faster boots
<xrileyx> what would be the downside?
<ogra> ubuntu usually only cares for the UUID of the drive 
<ogra> so you should be able to use any media that had a filesystem and is known by the kernel for your rootfs
<xrileyx> fantastic!
<xrileyx> thanks
<ogra> no downside apart from the hardware induced ones
<ogra> dont use a swap partition ;) it will wear out your flash
<xrileyx> swap partition?
<ogra> yes
<xrileyx> oh, this is the equivilant of page size in windows?
<derekS> hey guys. 2 questions: 1) is there any tutorial on encrypting the home directory? 2) are there any articles on optimizing for SSDs? 
#ubuntu-mobile 2009-08-18
<davidm> ogra: can you ask randa at hq to spread the word in the company to SMS my cell to contact me today please, I had to turn off my ringer, in meetings all day. Thanks
<ogra> will do
<davidm> thanks
<ogra> davidm, i'll just send an annouce to the internal ML (and tell randa indeed)
<davidm> by the by this is being sent from a portable  ARM device prototype :-)
<ogra> WOW !
<ogra> the dove kernel sits in the new qeue btw ... 
<ogra> seems to be a day of good news :)
<davidm> ogra can you sms randa's cell number to me please, I can't reach the lookup machine right now, again thanks
<ogra> ok
<amitk> ogra: I didn't understand from the scrollback what the actual problem was with the marvell buildd?
<ogra> amitk, the kernel on the machine shomehow influences how the squashfs is compressed
<ogra> amitk, our option was to a) roll a new untested kernel (we take the machine out of production anyway soon, so wasted time) 
<ogra> b) use qemu (slow makes us fall behind even more)
<ogra> c) use other hardware (which we decided to do)
<amitk> ogra: ok, so root cause wasn't determined. Only that it happened on a particular HW
<ogra> with a particular binary kernel
<ogra> lamont didnt dig into if its the hw or the kernel 
<derekS> hey guys. 2 questions: 1) is there any tutorial on encrypting the home directory? 2) are there any articles on optimizing for SSDs? 
<lool> ogra: HEAD http://people.canonical.com/~lool/mobile-status.html
<lool> Last-Modified: Tue, 18 Aug 2009 07:55:33 GMT
<lool> I *did* setup a cronjob  :)
<lool> What I cant cron is for people to go update the status in the spec though!
<ogra> but it should run directly before the meeting i guess :)
<lool> ogra: I can run it more frequently, it would be nice if people would simply update their status regularly though
<ogra> i updated it during the day 
<derekS> hey guys, i am sure you have seen this, but something like: http://media.boygeniusreport.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/maemo5-screen.jpg would be nice for unr
<r00s> the panel is working fine for me
<r00s> i'd like to have a 'today' screen though
<r00s> my workaround is to write the  contents of a todo file to the desktop background picture
<r00s> there are a few free pixels below the favorites on the right
#ubuntu-mobile 2009-08-19
<davmor2> hey lool todays image is fried :(
<davmor2> autologin failure
<davmor2> dropped to shell login: ubuntu password:   login failed
<davmor2> is there now a password for ubuntu live session?
<GrueMaster> davmor2: what are you seeing?  Which image?
<davmor2> unr karmic 20090819.  image gets to desktop and seems to crash out.  At which point it tries to auto log back in but fails.  cycling back round to auto login where it fails again etc
<davmor2> GrueMaster: ^
<GrueMaster> I'm running the live image now, and not seeing this.  I'll try installing.
<davmor2> GrueMaster: I'm going to run md5sum on the pen drive and check it's not screwed
<GrueMaster> How are you imaging the pen drive?
<davmor2> GrueMaster: usb startup disk creator on jaunty
<GrueMaster> ok.
<GrueMaster> heh.  partimage detected moblin on the HD, didn't give an option to dual boot.  Just nuke & pave.
<davmor2> well the local iso checks out 
<davmor2> right freshly formatted my pendrive try again
<davmor2> Yay worked this time must of been the constantly over written pendrive phew
<davmor2> GrueMaster: did you log the fact that add/remove is missing?
<GrueMaster> add/remove?  Missing from which?
<davmor2> unr
<davmor2> karmic
<GrueMaster> I believe it is already documented.   Give me a sec to look into it.
<davmor2> at least the install is in favourites again now :)
<GrueMaster> (I'm kind of multitasking at the moment).
<davmor2> GrueMaster: that's bad for your health you need to stop that right now :D
<GrueMaster> Oh, if only you knew what else I'm working on.  You have no idea how bad for my health this is.
<dannyboy1121x> Hello .. Just a quick Q about Ubuntu Mobile .. Is Ubuntu-Mobile likely to be a viable alternative to Symbian or are the target machines limited?
<davmor2> dannyboy1121x: it's aimed mostly at netbook-y type machines currently
<GrueMaster> Ubuntu Netbook Remix is dedicated to x86 hardware at the moment.
<dannyboy1121x> ahhh .. so not mobile phones. Ok .. thanks for info.
<GrueMaster> Odd how many times I get asked if Ubuntu Mobile supports cell phones.
<lool> GrueMaster: Add a FAQ entry https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileTeam/FAQ !
<GrueMaster> lool: done.
#ubuntu-mobile 2009-08-21
<Guest95006> Hi there - I've got a question about installing ubuntu on a UMPC.  I have a Samsung Q1 Ultra, and I know there's a build of 8.04 that's specifically for it, but should I install a newer version anyway?  Like 8.10?
#ubuntu-mobile 2009-08-22
<derekS> hey, i just downloaded the daily iso, and i am trying to install it on my dell mini via usb harddrive. i have done it succesfully with img files, but iso's are different. how do i copy an iso to make it bootable
<lool> derekS: Use usb-creator
<lool> The Ubuntu version is in Ubuntu, the Windows version might be on the CD already
#ubuntu-mobile 2010-08-28
<FleurTheRock> hi
<FleurTheRock> i'm italian boy, i have htc p3600!
<FleurTheRock> i can install ubuntu mobile?
<FleurTheRock> you peach italian?
<FleurTheRock> you speack italian?
<FleurTheRock> http://nexusonehacks.net/nexus-one-hacks/how-to-install-ubuntu-on-your-nexus-oneandroid/
