#xubuntu-devel 2011-05-16
<charlie-tca> Good morning
<micahg> good morning ChanServ 
<micahg> oops
<micahg> good morning charlie-tca 
<charlie-tca> Good morning, micahg 
<davmor2> charlie-tca: how did we miss each other dude?  I was looking out for you and persia describe you and I thought I saw him :(
<davmor2> charlie-tca: I hope you had an uneventful flight home :)
<charlie-tca> davmor2: had a good flight home. 
<charlie-tca> tried to find you, but sometimes, it just doesn't work out
<charlie-tca> I had time to talk with persia this time. It was Great!
<davmor2> charlie-tca: yeah 600 people in a confined space doesn't help
<davmor2> yeah persia is a dude
<charlie-tca> yeah, exactly. 
<charlie-tca> Then try to find someone you don't know at all, too
<davmor2> charlie-tca: Yeap that too
<davmor2> charlie-tca: best of it is you spoke to one of my colleagues a couple of times at breakfast dsowen
<charlie-tca> heh
<charlie-tca> I spoke to a lot of people, I think
<charlie-tca> davmor2: next time, look for the elderly gray haired guy!
<davmor2> with a stick
<charlie-tca> yeah, that one
<davmor2> charlie-tca: well hopefully I'll be at the next one too so should be good
<charlie-tca> That would be great!
<charlie-tca> I did finally get to meet some of the other people, though. I guess a few at a time works.
<charlie-tca> I even got to meet pleia2 in person!
<charlie-tca> It is really hard to meet up with the one called cody-somerville though. Maybe we can get together in orlando, too
<davmor2> charlie-tca: Cody is easy to find just look for some one else and he always seems to be there :D
<charlie-tca> I didn't try that one :-)
#xubuntu-devel 2011-05-17
<charlie-tca> Good morning
<holstein> charlie-tca: o/
<pleia2> can someone speak to this/confirm? https://bugs.launchpad.net/xubuntu-website/+bug/784020
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 784020 in Xubuntu Website "download page lies about disk size requirements" [Undecided,New]
<charlie-tca> valid
<pleia2> ok, I'll update the reqs on the site
<charlie-tca> The ubiquity installer per Ubuntu requirements needs 4 GB, we get caught up in that, even though the actual Xubuntu install only needs 2gb
<charlie-tca> I think we should give that but to ubiquity
<charlie-tca> Using the alternate installer will not force the same statement from the installer
<pleia2> the bug is actually against the website, so a separate one should be filed against ubiquity
<charlie-tca> I will run another test, since I did install in less then 4gb during testing. I split a 3 gb partition to install in
<ochosi> great, i saw quite a few people in #xubuntu inquire about that lately
<pleia2> thanks charlie-tca, I've gone ahead and updated the site to say: "To install Xubuntu with the standard installer (Ubiquity), you need 4.4 GB of free space on your hard disk. The Alternate Install CD only requires you to have 2 GB of free space on your hard disk."
<charlie-tca> If it rreally requires the 4 gb, I will file a bug against ubiquity, but I think it is only a matter of wording
<pleia2> ochosi: I still owe you a nice firefox screenshot, right?
<pleia2> ochosi: here's the updated one: http://people.ubuntu.com/~lyz/xubuntu/natty/n-xubuntu-firefox.png
<pleia2> let me know if it's ok :)
<micahg> does anyone else experience pink notify-osd alerts in natty?
<davmor2> micahg: no
<davmor2> micahg: I am on Ubuntu rather than Xubuntu
<micahg> davmor2: I was referring to xubuntu :)
<micahg> ubuntu stuff works fine
<charlie-tca> not any more
<knome> hey pleia2, i suppose there is no update on the wp staging site for xubuntu?
<charlie-tca> micahg: I had off-color notifications, until I got both xfsettingsd and xfwm4 to start 
<pleia2> knome: no update :(
<pleia2> everyone was at UDS last week though, so no surprise there
<knome> someone could have pointed that to the IS guys
<knome> with a sharp knife
<knome> :|
<micahg> charlie-tca: will check when I'm near that machine again, thanks
<ochosi> pleia2: ah right, @work atm, will check when i'm home :)
<pleia2> ochosi: thank you :)
<ochosi> pleia2: any chance this will hit the hp anytime soon? (or is it connected to the wordpress-migration)
<pleia2> ochosi: hp?
<ochosi> pleia2: homepage
<pleia2> ochosi: oh, yeah I already updated the screenshot on the homepage, the ones you're doing now are for xubuntu.org/tour
<pleia2> I updated the top one, waiting on firefox for the bottom one
<pleia2> and just updated xubuntu.org/about this morning
<pleia2> I'm going through the site and reporting bugs against other stuff we need to update so I don't lose track
<charlie-tca> lots of bugs, I hope ;-)
<pleia2> charlie-tca: yes, and some for you! xubuntu.org/contribute/qa_bugs_testing needs love :)
<pleia2> charlie-tca: I know qa_bugs_testing needs updating, when you have some time can you go through the rest of http://xubuntu.org/devel to see what else does?
<charlie-tca> okay
<ochosi> pleia2: ok, i just finished the ff-shot, here you go: http://imagebin.org/153721
<pleia2> ochosi: thanks!
<ochosi> pleia2: btw, the about-screenshot is a bit lame with the virtualbox parts... ;)
<ochosi> you could send the original to me and i can remove that if you want
<ochosi> (or is it intentional?)
<pleia2> oops
 * pleia2 fixes
<ochosi> charlie-tca: btw, suggestion for xubuntu+1 default install: https://code.google.com/p/touchegg/
<ochosi> (kubuntu are doing it as well, i think the move makes sense)
<knome> ochosi, have you tried that yourself?
<ochosi> knome: yes
<knome> okay
<ochosi> with an apple trackpad
 * ochosi hides
<charlie-tca> ochosi: kubuntu will look at it because it is using QT - TouchÃ©gg is a multi-touch gestures recognizer written in C + + using the Qt 4 and utouch-geis. 
<charlie-tca> We do not have QT installed by default, and it does increase the size of things considerably
<ochosi> right, didn't think of that
<ochosi> i guess when i installed it i already had qt
<ochosi> so i didn't notice
<charlie-tca> it is a good fit for KDE
<ochosi> well anyway, i think xfce/xubuntu could be a bit better with touchpad configuration
<ochosi> atm it's really very basic
<charlie-tca> disclaimer:  charlie-tca will be testing kubuntu accessibility this cycle
<charlie-tca> agreed, we could stand to be better, but not through QT 
<pleia2> https://www-admin.xubuntu.org/tour done \o/
<pleia2> err
<pleia2> xubuntu.org/tour :)
<ochosi> charlie-tca: nice, this way we can compare their accessibility to ours
<charlie-tca> Theirs is not quite as good as what we don't have
<ochosi> you speak in miracles, charlie-tca 
<knome> pleia2, nice screenshots! :)
<charlie-tca> Xfce 4.10 will include accessibility
<ochosi> well done pleia2 
<charlie-tca> for now, we use gnome stuff
<ochosi> k, get what you mean now
<ochosi> well, it'll be a while till xfce 4.10 i guess...
<charlie-tca> I would like to see at-registryd installed by default, so that the other accessibility that relies on it will just work, though
<ochosi> unless the latest cycle has changed their release policy
<charlie-tca> yup
<charlie-tca> we are looking at maybe 12.04 for 4.10
<ochosi> would be nice, since it's the next lts if i'm not mistaken
<charlie-tca> yeah, which means three years without 4.10 if it doesn't make it
<charlie-tca> ochosi: thanks for looking out for better accessibility stuff. 
<knome> pleia2, as it seems like it's going to take a while before we get the staging site, would you be ready to work with me to integrate the new logo into the xubuntu site?
<pleia2> knome: yep, but I want it to be as little work as possible :)
<pleia2> if we can just swap out the logo that'd be nice
<knome> pleia2, i think we could drop the curve on the white area, and also get rid of the top baby blue bar
<ochosi> charlie-tca: sure, np. maybe we can still find some solution for touchpads or whatever. i also hope to be able to improve greybird and make it even more accessible
<charlie-tca> We just have to keep looking. We can find something, I am sure.
<ochosi> knome, pleia2: having something like the ubiquity installer slideshow on the frontpage, is that for after the wordpress migration?
<knome> ochosi, yeah.
<pleia2> knome: the drupal theme code is at lp:xubuntu-website and that can just be pushed when we are ready (I just nudge cody)
<knome> okay...
<knome> ugh :)
<knome> i didn't want to hear that, but okay
<pleia2> knome: we might just have to suffice with updating https://www-admin.xubuntu.org/themes/xubuntu810/img/xubuntu_logo_slogan.png
<ochosi> bbl
<pleia2> the curve remains, but we can at least get the logo sorted
<knome> well...
<knome> while i'm on that, i'd rather just drop the curve really
<pleia2> it just seems that dropping the curve is going to require a lot more work
<knome> of course, but it's still not massive, really :)
<knome> there's no more work for you
<knome> i'll edit the css with web dev extension
<knome> so i can make sure it works
<pleia2> ok
<knome> do we want to keep the slogan?
<pleia2> I don't think so
<knome> okay
<cody-somerville> ugh oh.
<cody-somerville> my xfce4-settings-helper on my maverick laptop dies horribly with _chunk(): invalid pointer
<cody-somerville> : - (
#xubuntu-devel 2011-05-19
<Animental> Hola!
<charlie-tca> Good morning
<holstein> charlie-tca: o/
<holstein> im excited about ubuntustudio using XFCE :)
<charlie-tca> holstein: I am too. I think that is a good move for ubuntustudio
<holstein> agreed
<holstein> we are being met with some negativity from the ubuntustudio community
<ochosi> holstein: what are the main concerns?
<charlie-tca> That will always be the case. There are those who still insist Ubuntu should include gnome2 in 11.10, too
<holstein> change in general
<charlie-tca> They don't seem to realize gnome3 is replacing gnome 2 and is a major change to it
<holstein> most seem to be unaware that gnome2 is EOL
<ochosi> mhm
<ochosi> holstein: do you plan to switch to xfce-apps as well? (as in: replace nautilus with thunar etc.)
<holstein> ochosi: thats the idea
<ochosi> right
<holstein> *we hope to get away with that
<charlie-tca> ochosi: using Xubuntu as the base instead of Ubuntu
<holstein> theres no reason why we cant
<holstein> i think we are checking for dependancies that might want/need nautilus
<ochosi> yeah, tbh feature-wise i'm not concerned with gnome2 vs. xfce
<charlie-tca> As I see it, it will greatly simplify the way it is put together
<holstein> or some other component that would want to pull gnome in
<pleia2> charlie-tca: so, according to the latest email from IS we can't actually use the staging site for staging our theme
<charlie-tca> yeah, I saw that. Maybe I don't understand what staging is?
<pleia2> looks like we'll need to set up our own instance and do our development there :\
<pleia2> I think *they* don't understand what staging is
<charlie-tca> It seems like they are using it as a pre-approval site only, instead of a place where the user can build and play before making the site real
<pleia2> yeah
<pleia2> now both knome and I have resources to run our own, but if we knew we couldn't use staging for staging we would have done this months ago, and it's kinda annoying :)
<charlie-tca> I agree. 
<charlie-tca> It seems really backward to have to work this way
<pleia2> yeah
<charlie-tca> I was going to try and push it, but I am afraid of losing it completely by making them angry
<charlie-tca> They are slow enough to respond. No point making it worse
<pleia2> agreed
<pleia2> I'll set up a test instance, but probably not today, need to get over demotivation from this disappointment first :)
<charlie-tca> It is really frustrating though, since we could have built several test sites already
<pleia2> yeah
<Pjotr> Hello, I'm a member of the upstream Dutch translation team for Xfce. Recently, RawChid spoke to mr_pouit about transferring critically improved Dutch translations of Xfce 4.8, to the updates of Xubuntu 11.04.
<Pjotr> mr_pouit then advised to make a separate bug report on Launchpad, for each newly translated Xfce package. I've done that a week ago. mr_pouit is not here, it seems.... can somebody else inform me about the progress in this matter? :-)
<micahg> Pjotr: I haven't seen the bugs, but the process would be, get the new translations in the versions in oneiric, then you can SRU them to natty
<Pjotr> How can I get them in oneiric? They are now here:  https://translations.xfce.org/projects/p/xfce/r/xfce-4-8/l/nl/
<charlie-tca> They will come into oneiric when we sync the packages shortly
<charlie-tca> Then we will push them back into natty, normally
<charlie-tca> By having the bugs, we won't forget them
<Pjotr> OK, sounds great.... when will the next sync happen?
<charlie-tca> I don't have dates, but I belioe
<charlie-tca> I believe it is in progress now, so should be within a week or two
<micahg> autosync is happening from Debian, so I assume Debian is packaging these new versions
<charlie-tca> That's the normal route. If mr_pouit sees they are not up to date, he packages to Debian and then syncs the packages
<Pjotr> charlie-tca: That's pretty quickly. And how long do you think it'll take after that, to push back the translations into natty?
<charlie-tca> I don't really have a timeframe for that. 
<charlie-tca> Alpha1 is june 2, so the sync has to happen soon
<micahg> ? what does one have to do with the otehr
<Pjotr> charlie-tca: maybe you can give a rough estimate for the push back into natty? 
<charlie-tca> Usually want the latest stuff in the first milestone, if possible
<charlie-tca> Pjotr: can't even begin to guess
<micahg> is there a list of bugs?
<charlie-tca> https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/781039
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 781039 in exo (Ubuntu) "Critically improved Dutch translation available upstream" [Undecided,New]
<Pjotr> micahg: I can provide it, if you have a moment...
<micahg> Pjotr: or just give me your LP id name and I can see which bugs you reported :)
<charlie-tca> That should have most of the packages attached
<micahg> Pjotr: nm, got it
<Pjotr> this is my Launchpad ID: https://launchpad.net/~computertip
<micahg> so, we have 13 packages to update
<Pjotr> Yup, I've been pretty busy... :P
<charlie-tca> :-)
<micahg> so, if mr_pouit gets this into Debian, we can sync them over into Ubuntu and then get them into Natty
<Pjotr> I've tried contacting mr_pouit through his Launchpad account, but received no response yet
<Pjotr> I have to go now. Thanks for your answers. I trust the matter is in good hands. :-)
<charlie-tca> Thanks for those bugs.
<scott-work> hi charlie-tca , just wanted to make sure you were aware that ubuntu studio is strongly considering moving to xfce as the DE
<charlie-tca> Thanks. Yes, and I think it would be a good move for ubuntustudio
<charlie-tca> We will try to give you whatever help we can if you do it.
<holstein> charlie-tca: thanks
<holstein> hopefully, it can be a pooling of resources at some point
<holstein> as the US team grows
<charlie-tca> scott-work: I think it might be easier than trying to tie in Unity, too
<scott-work> charlie-tca: i expect the same as well
<scott-work> and thanks :)
<charlie-tca> Good luck! Oneiric promises to be interesting either way
<scott-work> charlie-tca: it certainly does, ubuntu studio has several substanital improvements in process, i hope we can sucessfully complete them
<charlie-tca> As a non-leader, let me know if I can help out. Not a developer/packager, but I can do testing and bugs if you need help with them?
<charlie-tca> I can't speak for Xubuntu on that, but for myself, I would be happy to lend a hand
<micahg> charlie-tca: non-leader?
<charlie-tca> bad words. non-leader == individually, not as Xubuntu 
<charlie-tca> brain still not back from UDS
<scott-work> lol, thank you charlie-tca, that is very gratious of you and greatly appreciated :)
<scott-work> there is discussion about getting the faenza icon set into the repos for use, but i don't know how this would look within xfce
<charlie-tca> Just want help here and there
<scott-work> does anyone have an opinion about it?
<charlie-tca> I thought faenza was already in the universe
<charlie-tca> faenza-icon-theme
<charlie-tca> We looked at it for Natty, but decided it was not quite right. Elementary was a better fit.
<charlie-tca> scott-work: ochosi did quite of bit of work with faenza, but is not around right now
<scott-work> charlie-tca: oh!  that might be really, really good then, but i'll look at elementary as well
<scott-work> but it still looks like faenza might only be available in PPA :(
<charlie-tca> hm, maybe I got the ppa enabled then
<micahg> charlie-tca: looks like it, I can't see it in the archive
<charlie-tca> edubuntu was looking at faenza too
<charlie-tca> nope
<charlie-tca> it is in main for natty
<micahg> charlie-tca: pkg name?
<charlie-tca> faenza-icon-theme
<micahg> charlie-tca: nope
<charlie-tca> version 0.7
<micahg> charlie-tca: https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+search?search_type=source&text=faenza
<charlie-tca> it shows in synaptic as component :  main
<micahg> charlie-tca: all PPA packages are in main (public ones at least)
<charlie-tca> crap
<charlie-tca> i give up. looks like I got too many ppa's now
<micahg> charlie-tca: apt-cache policy foo will tell you where it's from
<charlie-tca> This theme is still under development.
<charlie-tca> 100 /var/lib/dpkg/status
<charlie-tca> last line for apt-cache
<micahg> charlie-tca: the only source shown?
<charlie-tca> no source given for it
<micahg> ah, yeah, then the repo was disabled at some point or it was deleted from th erepo
<charlie-tca> even better!
 * micahg runs off to do various things now
<charlie-tca> I'm going hide again. This one got me
<scott-work> lol, but thank you for looking :)
#xubuntu-devel 2011-05-20
<charlie-tca> Good morning
<charlie-tca> Sucessfully installed Xubuntu 11.04 using xubuntu-desktop-i386.iso. Manually partition 3072Mb for / and 1024Mb for swap. Total size for installation = 4Gb. Verified on info page that 4.4Gb is required for install, but that is simply a warning to insure ubuntu will work.
<charlie-tca> I will run an install using a total of 2Gb available later today.
<charlie-tca> I will have to swap out drives for it.
<pleia2> charlie-tca: using the alt installer for your next test?
<charlie-tca> Using desktop for both, if it works, I know the alternate will
#xubuntu-devel 2011-05-21
<charlie-tca> *Gm
<charlie-tca> Good morning
<Unit193> Good afternoon!
<charlie-tca> Maybe I will start going by UTC instead of Mountain time
<Unit193> I just go by my time... Do you happen to know where the recordings of UDS are? (I can look, I just don't know offhand)
<Unit193> Sat May 21 17:06:19 EDT 2011   Local
<charlie-tca> I don't know offhand
<charlie-tca> I could go search them out if you want
<Unit193> I didn't find them (Maybe I'm blind...)
<charlie-tca> http://www.youtube.com/user/ubuntudevelopers
<charlie-tca> has the videos
<Unit193> Ah! I didn't look at YT... (And I thought it would be audio...) /me fails
<charlie-tca> There are audio streams of all the sessions too, the videos are only plenaries and some sessions
<charlie-tca> Unit193: here are most of the session streams - http://mirrors.tumbleweed.org.za/uds-o/
<Unit193> charlie-tca: Thanks! Sorry for the bug!
<charlie-tca> huh?
<charlie-tca> bug?
<Unit193> s/bug/bugging/
<charlie-tca> no problem
<charlie-tca> That mirror page takes a while to load
#xubuntu-devel 2012-05-14
<ochosi> morning
<Unit193> Hello.
 * genii-around makes a fresh pot of coffee
<ochosi> good idea
<knome> hai.
<knome> uoh
<ochosi> where are all the u-studio guys? :)
<knome> heh, no idea
<knome> we should see if the proposed roadmap items are doable
<knome> eg. i don't think "new panel plug in (applet)" is in the scope for xubuntu developers
<knome> or, i don't know, but if the team is the same, it's not doable
<ochosi> haven't looked at the roadmap lately
<mr_pouit> especially since there are already several "monitor" plugins, more or less unmaintained
<knome> mmh
<john-> guys, is there a package that contains the default xfterm4 color scheme? Xubuntu's new scheme infers with almost every application I'm trying to use. (like mc, aptitude, but even nano)
<mr_pouit> you can edit /etc/xdg/xdg-xubuntu/Terminal/terminalrc and drop ColorPalette*
<mr_pouit> (well, all color options actually)
<john-> ty
<ochosi> john-: we're reviewing our term-colors for the next release, would be great if you would participate (at least by giving your feedback or by testing)
<john-> sure thing, I saw that point in the roadmap plan on the wiki
<ochosi> ah ok
<ochosi> just wanted to be sure to mention it
<ochosi> there aren't that many users around here who use lots of term-apps
<ochosi> i use irssi and vim, those two look ok
<ochosi> (and man obviously :) )
<john-> :)
<ochosi> john-: i read you wanna help out with xfce?
<john-> to me, terminal is a selling point in Linux, or even on a Mac. Okay, Windows got cmd, and powershell, but I still can't get myself to learn all the powershell applets, syntax, etc.
<john-> yepp. I checked out the Xubuntu bugtracker first, but I figured it out if you import all the Debian packages at start anyway, helping XFCE would be better
<ochosi> right, what areas were you thinking of?
<john-> uhm sorting out the bugs (bugtracker), helping with bugs (bugfixing, see if I can fix some of them, propose patches that fix the problem, and won't introduce new ones)
<ochosi> sounds good
<john-> nothing *too* big at first, but something that would help the project
<ochosi> xfce can definitely use your help
<ochosi> and yeah, you're right, it's probably best to work with upstream
<knome> +1
<ochosi> although we could also use helping hands :)
<ochosi> our maintenance load will increase with the next release (we'll have to maintain the gtk2-indicators ourselves)
<knome> xubuntu benefits from fixing bugs in xfce, and if we didn't benefit from *all* fixed bugs, i'm still happy
<knome> :)
<john-> just tell me which area you need the help and I'll take a look 
<ochosi> mr_pouit: do you think it's realistic that we fix power-man to use a gtk2-indicator?
<john-> as far as I saw, even sorting out the stupid reports would help a lot :))
<ochosi> heh
<ochosi> true
<knome> john-, http://xubuntu.org/contribute/qa/
<mr_pouit> ochosi: nick touched a bit xfpm for 4.10, so maybe he cleaned it up (so then it might be feasible)
<knome> john-, \o/
<knome> err, mr_pouit ^ :D
<john-> on it knome , ty!
<knome> john-, there's other things too if you have more "appetite" for them, but otoh, that definitely is a good starting point :)
<knome> madnick, ?
<knome> "a way to save a xfce4 Panel config for using it when we add a new user"
<knome> isn't that just backuping the panel preferences and copying to new user?
<knome> or using skel
<ochosi> mr_pouit: i dunno how far he really cleaned it up, i just remember him complaining about it a lot
<knome> well, doesn't complaining a lot eventually make the code clean itself?
<ochosi> bbl
<astraljava> It's like cursing, it takes away the pain. :)
<knome> ochosi went complaining? oh my :)
<madnick> knome: ?
<knome> madnick, you still up to updating the lightdm and plymouth themes? :)
<madnick> yes
<knome> ok, so what about maintaining the lightdm gtk-greeter?
<madnick> the old one?
<madnick> original*
<knome> yeah, many people still use it
<knome> i don't think it needs much updating, just keeping it in one piece :P
<madnick> is the current maintainer giving up?
<knome> ask mr_pouit for details :)
<madnick> oh he is the maintainer
<andrzejr> Guys, just wanted to let you know that xfce4-panel optionally uses some features from libwnck 2.31.0.
<andrzejr> if you look at the second screenshot at http://www.webupd8.org/2012/05/install-xfce-410-in-xubuntu-1204.html the workspace switcher has a distorted aspect ratio.
<andrzejr> the new libwnck version fixes it (the panel has to be rebuilt in order to make use of it)
<ochosi> andrzejr: oh yes, i noticed that before (i mean the problem, not the solution)
<ochosi> andrzejr: thanks for the heads-up!
<ochosi> mr_pouit: did you notice you were downgraded to a "xubuntu contributor" by webupd8? :D
<baizon> =)
<ochosi> ahoi bluesabre 
<bluesabre> hey, hows it going?
<ochosi> good good, a bit busy, but generally fine
<ochosi> on your end?
<bluesabre> pretty slow, but not too bad
<ochosi> good
<bluesabre> did you get some feedback on blackbird?
<ochosi> no, nothing so far :]
<ochosi> just looking at your xfconf-query code
<bluesabre> I think it looks pretty good.  Just a bit too dark for me (been spoiled by bluebird)
<ochosi> guess calling the shell is rather costly
<ochosi> ah, you tried it?
<ochosi> nice
<bluesabre> For a little while
<ochosi> it still has quite a few quirks, mostly treeviews etc
<ochosi> but yeah, i wanted to try something really dark
<bluesabre> I've been working on the vala port for the kso.  m8t pointed me in a few directions for getting the valas with xfconf in c/vala
<bluesabre> *values
<ochosi> right, does it look manageable?
<bluesabre> yeah, should have something functional this week
<ochosi> cool
<ochosi> i guess some of the plugins could also serve as examples for querying xfconf
<bluesabre> yeah
<ochosi> have you tried adding buttons like notifyd does?
<bluesabre> I haven't.  What kind of functionality would we use buttons for?  Go to keyboard shortcuts?
<ochosi> yeah, i'd add an edit-button to each header that takes you directly to the corresponding settings-window
<bluesabre> That's a good idea
<ochosi> because the shortcuts are split up in different dialogs
<ochosi> so users would have to dig to find a specific setting
<bluesabre> true
<bluesabre> I'll add that in.
<ochosi> theoretically we could also let them assign keys from the overlay, but that's kinda duplicating...
<bluesabre> that might be more difficult.  The overlay should probably only show when holding the launcher/modifier key, right?
<ochosi> yes, that was the original plan
<mr_pouit> ochosi: yeah, I know, but I didn't feel pedantic enough to tell them (a developer is a contributor after all :p)
<ochosi> mr_pouit: say, do you have a clue how we could call a programm when the super-key is held down for e.g. 2 seconds minimum?
<ochosi> usually it's either you press the shortcut, or you don't
<bluesabre> ochosi: I was thinking of having the program start as a minimal mode with a timer, then if the key is still held down, show the interface.
<bluesabre> (assuming you're talking about the kso)
<ochosi> yup, i am :)
<bluesabre> though there might be a better way :D
<ochosi> yeah, i was wondering about that
<ochosi> whether there is something in X or xfce we can use instead of running our own little timer
<bluesabre> and that would be good, because I can detect press and release events, but I have no idea how to tell if something is already pressed when the program starts
<ochosi> just imagine someone hits the super-key twice exactly in the right interval for the timer by accident :p
<bluesabre> good point
<ochosi> well, you could poll for the shortcut more often than twice (beginning and end)
<bluesabre> yeah
<ochosi> i have no clue whether that would create much overhead with people using the super key a lot
<bluesabre> still not sure how to tell button states.  I don't think its doable in python-gi, but probably with vala or c
<ochosi> yeah, that's why i thought i'd start asking around 
<mr_pouit> you can't do that with xfce4-settings afaik (it's only here for kbd shortcuts, so it only detects keypresses)
<mr_pouit> you'll have to do like xfce4-volumed I guess, session-autostart and grab the key youself
<mr_pouit> +r
<ochosi> ah right
<ochosi> volumed is a good place to look
<ochosi> (although jannis didn't really praise the code last time we talked about that)
<mr_pouit> (yeah, simply close your eyes when you see the list of keys grabbed)
<bluesabre> ok
<mr_pouit> e.g. it grabs XF86AudioRaiseVolume plus all possible modifiers, by hand: http://git.xfce.org/apps/xfce4-volumed/tree/src/xvd_keys.c#n84
<ochosi> uargh
<ochosi> did you _have to_ link directly to the ugliest section? :}
<bluesabre> haha
<GridCube> :/
<GridCube> the "brainstorming" passed along me and i didnt even noticed it
<GridCube> can we really, really, really have schudeled meetings please?
<ochosi> did you have any ideas you would've wanted to put in the roadmap?
<knome> GridCube, feel free to add your ideas to the brainstorming now, but do it ASAP
<knome> GridCube, i'm going to run votes at the end of this week (or start of next)
<knome> GridCube, and i've already called for assignees too, so people are probably looking already
<GridCube> yes i know thats why i said it
<GridCube> :(
<GridCube> i wanted to propose use of arandr and cheese as pre-installed programs
<knome> please do it now â technically, the roadmap has been open for submissions since i created that page, so longer than it was officially on
<GridCube> can i add it as a late entry box and leave it there to be considered with a maybe?
<knome> nah, just add it to the regular table
<ochosi> +1
<GridCube> i know is that the mail got lost 
<knome> we haven't started "considering" yet
<knome> that's what we reserved this week for
 * knome is investigating how the launchpad polls work
<ochosi> ah, polls
<ochosi> good idea
<ochosi> was wondering how we'd do it
<knome> hehe
<knome> yeah, you know, that's why i set the test poll today for ~sp :P
<knome> so we can see how that looks like
<ochosi> knome: stuff like "re-think panels", would you put that as a separate work-item? i didn't yet because it's something we _should_ do every cycle anyway...
<knome> no, that doesn't really need a blueprint
<knome> you got to remember the items on the list are blueprints, which can contain a lot of work items and bugs that are attached
<knome> so it doesn't make sense to add every little thing to the list, just add those little things as work items
<ochosi> yeah
<ochosi> i saw you haven't merged the "appearance-improvements" yet
<knome> no, not yet
<ochosi> sorry, i also didn't get round to it
<GridCube> done
<knome> GridCube, thanks :)
<knome> so...
<knome> who's going to volunteer as an assignee for the application blueprints?
<ochosi> pff :)
 * ochosi hides
<knome> the monitor management item (as well as the apt-offline item) is merely a decision-thing
<knome> no need for huge comparisons, or even assignees
<ochosi> you mean whether we throw one of the monitor-plugins into the panel by default?
<ochosi> what's "Add optimum partitioning option to install options" ?
<knome> no, i mean seeding arandr/grandr
<knome> i've no idea
<knome> i'm thinking it might mean that somebody wants the installation to calculate something
<knome> or just propose 10GB / and rest as /home, if HDD space >40GB
<ochosi> yeah, but that's completely out of our hands anyway
<knome> or sth...
<knome> well, i suppose we could affect that, but i'm not sure how useful that is
<ochosi> dvd support is an interesting proposal
<knome> for majority of people, installing to one partition is completely fine, even makes sense
<knome> aren't we seeding *something* with the package already?
<knome> and libdvdcss...
<ochosi> are we?
<ochosi> i'm not sure
<knome> i thought there was going to be something like the flashplugin-nonfree-installer
<ochosi> if we are, then we can delete that item
<knome> so libdvdcss would be downloaded automatically
<knome> (currently you need to run a bash script from /etc/docs or sth)
<ochosi> anyway, i think that we should make it easier to install the restricted extras via ubiquity
<ochosi> currently people can only decide to install mp3 codecs
<knome> yeah. i'm wondering why the mp3 -codecs appear there, but not the -extras
<knome> mm-hmm
<ochosi> instead they should be able to install restricted extras
<ochosi> that's what most want anyway
<knome> yup, that makes sense
<ochosi> question is: do we have anyone who can take on this task
<ochosi> astraljava maybe?
<knome> well, astraljava worked with ubiquity the last cycle
<knome> and i'm sure we'd get help from stgraber most probably anyway
<ochosi> wow, lubuntu-software center is really light
<ochosi> ~1mb
<knome> mmh, btw, i realized one day
<knome> i want to keep synaptic, because i *really* prefer it to any other package manager i've seen
<knome> but i don't use it pretty much at all anyway, i'm just using apt-get
<knome> (and apt-cache)
<ochosi> i'm not sure keeping synaptic is a consistent choice
<ochosi> i mean with the general direction of the distro
<knome> no, probably not
<ochosi> personally i think it's overly complicated for newbies
<ochosi> and i use it only sometimes
<knome> imo it's really simple...
<ochosi> but it's not hard for me to install it
<knome> just type your search, then install
<knome> but...
<astraljava> ochosi: knome: I'm sorry, what exactly? I haven't looked at the blueprints at all, yet.
<knome> astraljava, hehe, well, please do look at them this week, and set yourself as assignee to a few ;)
<ochosi> astraljava: just the "random" idea of throwing an option to install xubuntu-restricted-extras into ubiquity-installer
<knome> astraljava, we were discussing the option to offer installing -restricted-extras instead of just the mp3 codecs
<knome> astraljava, -> Analyze and optimize boot times 
<knome> astraljava, i'm waiting for you to pick that up
<knome> :)
<astraljava> ochosi: Ahh... yes, I should be able to take that. I need to work on the ubiquity tasks anyway.
<bluesabre> +1 for lubuntu-software-center
<ochosi> knome: take a look at lubuntu-software center please. it's not too bad. if we get a chance to work on it with them, it might be ok instead of USC
<bluesabre> never used it before you guys just mentioned it, but its nice
<astraljava> knome: Well, sure, I'm interested about that as well.
<knome> astraljava, yeah, me too, but i'm not setting me as an assignee before somebody with technical skills is on it.
<ochosi> bluesabre: it does seem to have some flaws, like not really showing all results...
<knome> ochosi, the preferences -dialog is a bit confusing, with no descriptions
<knome> ochosi, and is that a custom widget??
<ochosi> knome: which one?
<knome> ochosi, the on/off
<knome> ochosi, in preferences
<ochosi> knome: no, that's the gtk-switch. it's not themed correctly with greybird as it is in 12.04, patch has been in git for a while already
<knome> ok
<ochosi> it's a new gtk3 widget
<knome> astraljava, well i just removed you from the "app sets" ;)
<astraljava> I noticed. Why?
<knome> well, i'm not sure if we will run that.
<knome> but yeah, feel free to be the assignee
<astraljava> Yep.
<knome> just be ready for the situation where you have less work than expected
<knome> OMG!!
<ochosi> why?
<ochosi> i mean why wouldn't we want the app-sets?
<knome> ochosi, well, what's the status of the a11y set?
<bluesabre> ochosi: yeah, it also has some issues with hovering certain results
<knome> ochosi, orca is not working? we don't have anybody to test the a11y?
<ochosi> yeah, but "pure" xfce is a valid app-set as well and good enough to test whether we can get a11y together
<knome> ochosi, there are a few things that make me uncertain if we are ready to ship the a11y set
<ochosi> maybe not yet, but i think it's ok to test app sets one by one
<knome> well yeah, but i'm not sure if i want to introduce yet an another screen to the installer just for the xfce-only set
<knome> i mean, i'm afraid many people will select that
<knome> *especially* if we say it's only for advanced users
<knome> people then think "YAAAAAHHH i'm up for it!"
<knome> then they join #xubuntu because the system is borked
<knome> and the xubuntu default theme isn't installed
<knome> and everything looks bad
<ochosi> well, how prominent we make that choice is totally up to us
<bluesabre> knome, you are very familiar with the 'advanced' users it seems
<bluesabre> :D
<knome> bluesabre, well, i'm familiar with *people*
<knome> that's how people are
<bluesabre> true
<knome> "ooh, that's for experts only - if i use that, i'm better than the others"
<knome> and with this kind of options, they are completely in problems
<knome> is installing "xfce-only" possible with alternative already?
<knome> or should we enable it there only?
<GridCube> ooh, it just came to me, the thunar bug should be fixed on 12.10 because of 4.10
<GridCube> and thats why we are going to keep having it on all the LTS for over 2 years :D
<knome> mm-hmm.
<knome> generally, i tend to tell people the normal xubuntu releases are quite stable too, so installing them shouldn't be any problem
<ochosi> GridCube: what thunar-bug?
<knome> ochosi, slow startup?
<GridCube> yes
<knome> is there any other bugs worth mentioning?
<GridCube> that are anoying and always happening?
<knome> well, any bugs
<GridCube> just that one and the plugin indicator not respawining properly one
<GridCube> those happens all the time
<knome> plugin indicator? :)
<GridCube> yes, the one that has the conectivity/sound/mail icons
<GridCube> if you close it, it will restart, but only with the network icon
<GridCube> no sound or mail
<knome> ah
<knome> i was referring to thunar bugs ;)
<ochosi> GridCube: close == remove from panel?
<GridCube> ochosi: yes
<ochosi> GridCube: if yes, then that's expected. sound and mail don't have systray fallbacks
<ochosi> GridCube: so if you remove the indicator plugin, the indicators aren't there anymore (sounds logical, doesn't it? :) )
<GridCube> welp then the plugin indicator should come back for no reason
<ochosi> why should something come back when you remove it?
<GridCube> i dont know
<GridCube> it does
<ochosi> it's only nm-applet that "returns"
<ochosi> because it also has a systray-mode
<GridCube> well yes
<ochosi> so if you remove the indicator, it respawns as a systray
<ochosi> end of story
<GridCube> well, thats wrong, 
<GridCube> because its not called "nm-applet", in the panle
<ochosi> why would a fallback mode be wrong?
<GridCube> is called Plugin Indicator
<ochosi> oh man...
<knome> ochosi, the fallback mode sounds wrong
<GridCube> and people want their soundcontrol back
<ochosi> the indicator-plugin currently holds _all_ indicators you have installed on your system
<ochosi> it's a single plugin
<GridCube> and they dont have it
<ochosi> knome: why?
<GridCube> well, is not working as it should
<knome> ochosi, i mean, if you have javascript, you see the enhanced page -> if you disable, you have the regular page -> if you re-enable, you still have regular ??
<knome> ochosi, i mean, re-enabling the indicator area should have a "hook" or system call or anything that tells the apps that it is available again
<ochosi> knome: i have no clue what you're talking about cause it works exactly like that (and like you said you would expect it should work) here
<ochosi> knome: indicators > disable > systray > enable > indicators
<knome> ochosi, do you realize that doesn't work for GridCube then? ;)
<GridCube> ochosi: some programs open indicators on the plugin indicator, most others dont, so in other to close the program you do right clic>close, but on the plugin indicator that means killing the plugin indicator, you do that unnoticing,then the Plugin indicator respawns, but theres only a network icon on it, no sound no mail, how is that correct?
<GridCube> or expected?
<GridCube> i think is wrong and annoying
<ochosi> GridCube: well there are the two concepts of systray and indicators. if you only want one of them, remove the other one from the panel
<ochosi> knome: i don't think you understood GridCube's problem ;)
<knome> ochosi, that's possible too ;)
<ochosi> hehe
<ochosi> GridCube: i agree that they're inconsistent, but there's not much we can do about that (other than patch all panel-plugins or not use indicators)
<GridCube> ok
<ochosi> we decided to have the indicators for good reasons though
<GridCube> yes and i like them
<GridCube> but they need to be consistent
<ochosi> there are upstream (xfce) plans to rework that plugin
<ochosi> but i think that'll take more time
<GridCube> if it closes it: 1) should not come back, or 2) everything should come bacl
<ochosi> you haven't understood 1) it seems
<ochosi> it's not the indicator-plugin that comes back. it's nm-applet
<ochosi> that's why it comes back "incomplete"
<ochosi> all your indicators are gone when you remove the plugin
<ochosi> ok, i gotta go
<ochosi> seeya
<knome> hehe
<knome> see you...
<GridCube> yes, but you dont seem to understand that it doesnt come back as nm-applet, it comes back as indicator plugin
<GridCube> :) good luck ochosi 
<knome> wb micahg :)
<knome> micahg, have any insight on apt-offline?
<micahg> knome: hi, and no
<knome> ok :)
<micahg> FTR, I haven't looked at any of the Xubuntu blueprints yet
<knome> micahg, time to do that then! :)
<micahg> knome: not this week probably
<knome> micahg, we're going to approve at the end of week or beginning of next, so...
<knome> anyway, i'm off for a few hours at least. see you later!
<micahg> knome: meh, I have to catch up on work this week
<bluesabre> knome: I noticed that "Add DVD support" is on the blueprint as a possibility, as well as possibly moving to a different media player.  Wouldn't VLC solve both problems?
<bluesabre> knome: nvm, I misread that it is "add dvd support to xubuntu-restricted-extras"
<knome> bluesabre, vlc is pretty much ruled out anyway, as it uses Qt
<bluesabre> That's true.  Audience seems pretty promising (from the limited testing I've done of it)
<Unit193> http://ubottu.com/ljl/apt/?repo=Oneiric&arch=i386&package=vlc&have=xubuntu-desktop  I don't even remember installing all that.
<bluesabre> wowza
<Unit193> It's about 35M all in all.
<knome> that's bad, that's not the worst thing
<ochosi> hi everyone
#xubuntu-devel 2012-05-15
<Unit193> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Installation/SystemRequirements#Lightweight_GUI_alternative_.28Xubuntu_and_Lubuntu.29 That right for what we say is the requirement?
<pleia2> hm, I can't even find the page on the site where we mention specs
<pleia2> oh, on the download page
<pleia2> we do say 512 is "strongly recommended" but it can run with 256
<pleia2> I'd say the specs on the help wiki are fine
<pleia2> thanks for keeping an eye out Unit193 :)
<Unit193> I'd say the others are outdated, but it'd depend on the processor I guess.
<pleia2> well, things like flash won't work so well :\
<pleia2> but it never works well
<Unit193> Flash has more to do with CPU, 2G computer doesn't do as well with 1G computer. :P
<micahg> you need at least 512MB at this point to run flash half decently (gnash might sip less)
<knome> bug 994816 \o/
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 994816 in Ubuntu QA Website "Buttons for adding bugs found in previous builds of a product" [Wishlist,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/994816
<ochosi> morning
<knome> hey ochosi :)
 * knome should poke js to learn some drag&drop
<ochosi> mhm
<knome> not only because of the bug, but generally i think that would be useful
<ochosi> i almost finished blackbird 0.1 yesterday btw
<ochosi> yeah, sounds useful
<knome> great
<ochosi> 0.1 == gtk2/xfwm4 complete, initial gtk3 version
<knome> ochosi, the test vote is up
<ochosi> i already voted last night ;)
<knome> aha
<knome> dang
<knome> apparently we can't see the results until the poll is over
<ochosi> well that is good
<knome> in a way, yeah
<ochosi> otherwise there could be tactical votes
<knome> yeah, but poll admin
<knome> or creator...
<ochosi> or people could wait with voting until they're a tie-breaker etc
<knome> i mean, what's his motivation to give tactical votes
<ochosi> well still, why should anyone see that?
<ochosi> because he's a secret dictator rather than a democrat? :)
<knome> if we do a user survey-like poll, isn't it stupid we need to wait for the poll to end to see the results?
<knome> say, we set the poll time to 2 weeks to gather maximum number of votes
<ochosi> i thought we'll use this as tool for team-decisions?
<knome> sure, but i'm also investigating if it could be used in other things as well
<knome> and i thought the team-decisions would be open...
<knome> i mean
<knome> it doesn't make much sense in a 10-person team to have closed votes
<knome> "i won't tell you what i think"
<knome> that doesn't encourage discussion
<ochosi> well they can be open afterwards
<ochosi> or: they have to be open afterwards
<knome> sure, i see your point for the votes not to be shown
<ochosi> i can see why you'd wanna have the numbers beforehand, but i think there are no real downsides to not having that (other than practicing your patience â and i don*t mean the game "patience" ;) )
<knome> lol
<knome> well, if we'd know the results before, we could start doing the work for the blueprints ;)
<knome> i'm guessing some of the items are going to be something that we all agree anyway
<knome> like "analyze and optimize boot times"
<knome> who wouldn't want that in?
<ochosi> yeah, and if we knew the results before, we even wouldn't have to set up polls ;)
<Unit193> Nobody wants that.
<knome> especially if you don't have to do that...
<ochosi> well boot times... ubuntu takes care of that for us
<knome> nah
<knome> we can make it better
<ochosi> so i'd say let's boot this item from the list :D
<ochosi> (woohoo! word-play before even having coffee)
<knome> ubuntu doesn't take very good care of that for us then, since my 12.04 boots much slower than 11.10
<ochosi> yeah, but it could be related to upstart rather than to our session
<knome> well actually, i suppose it *does* relate to our session
<baizon> but the shutdown process is much faster with 12.04
<knome> but we should investigate
<ochosi> baizon: +1
<knome> baizon, don't know about that, been really fast for me for a long time
<ochosi> baizon: in fact i think 11.10 was the only really slow shutdown i ever had
<baizon> agree
<knome> if we can cut even 0.5seconds off the boot with fast machines, that's much for the slower
<ochosi> mr_pouit: would you take care of the technical side of getting more dialogs into the settings-manager? (i would â along with others â try to get a selection/list done)
<ochosi> mr_pouit: i'm referring to the 12.10 roadmap and putting us as assignees
<knome> ochosi, isn't that just editing the .desktop files, thus a good item for somebody just starting to contribute?
<ochosi> yeah, i guess
<ochosi> but we still need an assignee before next week
<knome> mmh.
<knome> remember, we can approve items later in the cycle too
<knome> "Any items added to the list after the brainstorming phase and those that were decided to postpone at the approving phase will need to be approved by the Xubuntu project leader along with the concerning team leaders."
<ochosi> right, good point
<Unit193> To be honest, I'm waiting to see if there is any low hanging fruit after better people have already taken some.
<knome> that actually sounds easier than "... the Xubuntu team will approve or reject the proposed blueprints by a simple majority vote."
<knome> Unit193, ^ that would be one
<ochosi> yup
<ochosi> it's mostly compiling a useful/meaningful list
<Unit193> http://ubottu.com/ljl/apt/?repo=Oneiric&arch=i386&package=apt-offline&have=xubuntu-desktop problem, ossifer?
<knome> ossifer?
<knome> :D
<Unit193> And I didn't remember less wasn't already installed. >_>
<knome> is more installed then?
<knome> (not a pun...)
<Unit193> I generally like less better, in many cases.
<knome> i don't have a preference
<Unit193> Task: minimal
<knome> more has better help
<knome> at least when typing 'more' and 'less' as is
<Unit193> So, apt-offline a problem?
<knome> probably not
<knome> just needs to be added to the seed, if the team approves it
<knome> unless we want to start a more complete meta-talk about tools
<knome> like "which tools are worth including, or should we include any case-specific tools"
<knome> a bit like pastebinit
<knome> "is it really useful for most of our users"
<Unit193> Useful to me when they try to paste a 30 line file into #xubuntu :P
<ochosi> i think apt-offline has a meaningful role in a default install
<knome> yes, you, but "for most of our users"
<ochosi> it's fairly different from pastebinit imo
<ochosi> (i mean its role)
<knome> yes, but they both are tools whatsoever
<ochosi> for pastebinit you can simply do apt-get install blah. with apt-offline it's not that easy (assuming you're in a scenario without internet)
<Unit193> Doesn't synaptic have that?
<Unit193> !offline
<ubottu> If you need to download Ubuntu packages using another machine or OS, check the desired packages in Synaptic and select File > Generate package download script. Alternatively, try http://ubottu.com/ljl/apt/ - See also !APTonCD
<knome> we're probably dropping synaptic for 12.10
<knome> so we can't count on that
<Unit193> What? That's crazy...
<knome> no, it's not, synaptic is not really maintained
<knome> or, that's what it is, maintained, but not developed
<Unit193> Heh, well it's loooads better than USC...
<ochosi> ... and we currently have 3 methods of installing packages
<knome> Unit193, but we're probably dropping USC too.
 * ochosi is currently investigating a cooperation on lubuntu-software-center with elementary/lubuntu/xubuntu
<Unit193> That saves a purge for me.
<ochosi> maybe we should involve u-studio as well
<knome> mm-hmm
<knome> sc[tab][tab][tab][tab] -- GAAH he's not here!
<knome> ;)
<ochosi> where are the studio folks, i mean really?
<knome> taking a break?
<Unit193> Heh, back when making it I had already thought "lightweight-software-center) rather than Lubuntu.
<knome> it's a good time to do it now.
<knome> i have to say i don't fancy any "software center" :/
<ochosi> hm right, i didn't know they are taking a break
<knome> i don't know if they are
<ochosi> was wondering whether they're taking a break from xubuntu
<knome> just guessing...
<knome> lol
<Unit193> Quite, all I need is terminal and apt.
<knome> no, scott isn't in #us-devel either
<ochosi> k
<knome> when i want to search or find apps i don't know well enough (like, i want a "dvd ripping app"), i go to GUI
<knome> and i think the way synaptic shows the packages is way superior than the software centers
<knome> they all make me feel like i need to be shepherded
<ochosi> many users need to be shepherded
<ochosi> (if that verb even exists)
<knome> hahah, i know
<knome> now it does! languages are dynamic!
<ochosi> the main problem i see with synaptic is that the gui is a bit too messy and that "technical items" are mixed with "apps"
<ochosi> i mean for newcomers
<knome> yeah, but there is the ubuntu logo...
<knome> oh, that's there for the libs too
<knome> bleh
<knome> how does SC make a difference between the apps and libs?
<knome> there must be an apt tag
<knome> it would be insane to control that manually
<Unit193> gmusicbrowser, sc, parole, disk-creator, and a few others are purged within minutes of install/upgrade.
<knome> Unit193, well yeah, i suppose most power users will always remove certain packages after installation, no matter what the default seed was
<Unit193> I understand this, but it also means I don't happen to know how to use them.
<Unit193> I expect this.
<ochosi> knome: afaik they make that distinction based on desktop files (there was a bug with xfce packages a while ago)
<knome> ochosi, i'm wondering if synaptic could have that feature too
<ochosi> sure
<knome> (yes, it would still be ancient, but that'd shed some hope)
<ochosi> it could probably even use the same source as usc
<ochosi> s/source/method
<ochosi> but i don't see anyone maintaining synaptic
<knome> isn't mvo maintaining it
<ochosi> it would also need a port to gtk3, so why not just write something new?
<knome> so, again, somebody wants to join xubuntu-team
<knome> do we know "aman sharma" ?
<ochosi> never heard of
<knome> yeah...
<knome> i love when people do not have the patience to read the team description
<ochosi> hmmhm
<knome> it very clearly states:
<knome> Please note that only users who have contributed to Xubuntu perpetually will be approved to the team.
<knome> and then tells the people:
<knome> To start contributing, join us at #xubuntu-devel or the Xubuntu development mailing list and introduce yourself as well as your skill set. Thanks for your interest and understanding.
<knome> we probably should link to our website too
<ochosi> yeah
<thauriswulfa> Ok I got it I'll have to make contributions first
<ochosi> :)
<ochosi> hi thauriswulfa 
<knome> thauriswulfa, aha, so it's you ;)
 * knome just fed up with the people who aren't even on IRC, or anything...
<thauriswulfa> yep its me
<knome> thauriswulfa, so, what are you interested in?
<thauriswulfa> yep
 * Unit193 is never on IRC.
<thauriswulfa> don't worry approve me only when my contributions to project will be significant enough
<knome> hehe, yeah, i will ;)
<knome> so, to ask again, where would you like to contribute to?
<knome> development? community? documentation?
<ochosi> artwork?
<ochosi> =)
<thauriswulfa> development
<knome> thauriswulfa, so, would you like to pick up a blueprint?
<knome> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Roadmap/Goals/Quantal
<thauriswulfa> thanks
<knome> To start contributing now, navigate to http://xubuntu.org/contribute/. The page will give you some good starting points to get involved as well as list the areas where you can help.
<knome> ochosi, ^ sounds good?
<ochosi> yup
<knome> k, done
<knome> Unit193, so, you'd like to take the "settings manager" -item?
<Unit193> Asking me at 03:53 isn't a good idea, but if nobody else does and an idiot can actually do it, why not?
<knome> Unit193, feel free to think until tomorrow ;)
<knome> thauriswulfa, is there something specific in development you are interested in?
<knome> thauriswulfa, unfortunately, we don't have up-to-date documentation of how to start developing and/or what areas we could use help with... but i don't think fixing bugs would be a bad start, for example :)
<thauriswulfa>  thats what I am trying to find out. I've been using xubuntu since a long time so I wanted to contribute and I am already subscribed to mailing list but didn't have time in past
<thauriswulfa> I'll find my way to contribute
<knome> thauriswulfa, okay, great :) mr_pouit and micahg (not around right now) are our main developers
<thauriswulfa> :-)
<knome> astraljava started helping us out too in the precise cycle
<knome> feel free to poke them if you need something to do, or are lost :)
<knome> others can help too, but those three are on top of the development issues best
<thauriswulfa> ok I'll
<mr_pouit> o hai
<Unit193> Howdy.
<thauriswulfa> hello mr_pouit
<mr_pouit> ochosi: if nobody else wants to do it, why not (but as knome said, it's something easy enough for a newcomer who wants to be involved ;-)
<mr_pouit> (or not newcomer, anyone :p)
<knome> well, yeah, it's something really anybody can grasp during the development phase of the cycle, which is a few months :P
<knome> astraljava, sent personal messages via LP to those three, who were in the wiki, but not in the LP team
<knome> madnick, you here?
<knome> Unit193 too :P
<knome> madnick, Unit193: you need to enter your information to https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Testing/Testers
<astraljava> knome: ACK, thanks.
<mr_pouit> ah, I forgot to apply a patch from xfce4-utils to xfce4-session in the ppa
<mr_pouit> (alacarte will try to use gnome-desktop-item-edit ;-)
<bluesabre> knome: I can help with testing as well (I love finding bugs) :-D
<knome> bluesabre, add you information to https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Testing/Testers, join the team at https://launchpad.net/~xubuntu-testers and see http://xubuntu.org/contribute/qa/ for more information on how to get started
<knome> bluesabre, right now there is not much to test, but it's good to prepare for that :)
<bluesabre> yup
<ochosi> mr_pouit: oh, also: i noticed something with xfce4-notifyd-config must be wrong, it doesn't show up in the new settings-manager (and the rest of the menu)
<ochosi> bluesabre: yeah, i noticed you love finding bugs :)
<bluesabre> hehe
<knome> bluesabre, erm, did you miss the wiki-part? ;)
<knome> GridCube, \o/
<GridCube> i assigned myself to the items i added on the wiki
<GridCube> :)
<knome> good
<GridCube> ohai knome o/
<GridCube> i did some searchs and i found that the only xrandr frontend thats left its arandr, all the rest are gone
<knome> heh
<GridCube> !info arandr
<ubottu> arandr (source: arandr): Simple visual front end for XRandR. In component universe, is optional. Version 0.1.4-1 (precise), package size 48 kB, installed size 376 kB
<bluesabre> knome: working on the wiki part right now
<bluesabre> :D
<GridCube> !info grandr
<ubottu> Package grandr does not exist in precise
<knome> bluesabre, good, i'll approve you once you're done :)
<GridCube> oh, look at that
<GridCube> !info lxrandr
<ubottu> lxrandr (source: lxrandr): simple monitor config tool for LXDE. In component universe, is extra. Version 0.1.2-1ubuntu1 (precise), package size 53 kB, installed size 812 kB
<GridCube> o:
<GridCube> mm, but doesnt seem to have all the tools arandr has
<bluesabre> knome: finished adding
<knome> bluesabre, approved
<bluesabre> lightning fast
<knome> yeah, i get wiki notifications ;)
<astraljava> ...into your cortex.
<GridCube> :/
<ochosi> btw, if we go for arandr that should go into the settings-manager _instead_ of the xfce-display-settings imo
<GridCube> second
<GridCube> i have a question though, because i still use 4.8, maybe in 4.10 theres a better monitor management system?
<GridCube> i havent tried that yet
<mr_pouit> ochosi: re xfce4-notifyd: yep, it didn't get a new release for 4.10 (it's not in core). That's why its desktop file still uses categories for the 4.8 settings manager
<bluesabre> GridCube: Just opened the display settings, looks like the 4.8 version.  Can't really test it though, in vbox atm
<mr_pouit> I'm waiting for someone to design + code a clean ui for xfce4-display-settings...
<mr_pouit> no, it didn't change
<mr_pouit> (many people complain, or tell that it's easy to update by adding comboboxes, but it'll be plain ugly)
<ochosi> mr_pouit: i can do the design part, will you do the coding part then? :p
<ochosi> i mean the stuff is all there, the functions
<ochosi> i'm using the extended desktop right now
<ochosi> wow, adding new stuff to the settings-manager is really easy...
<mr_pouit> yeah, most functions are there, you just need to do some ninja moves with xfconf-query
<mr_pouit> ochosi: it depends on the ui you propose (things like drag'n'drop of outputs like arandr, I can't do, that's why nothing changed ;-)
<ochosi> listen up everyone: mr_pouit is a ninja!
<ochosi> well we can do something simple for starters
<ochosi> anyway, if you're serious i can set up a page in the xfce design wiki for it
<mr_pouit> +1, I feel bad letting it rot, as I was the one to rewrite it for 4.8 (with jeromeg)
<ochosi> ok, cool
<ochosi> btw, amazing stuff nick did there with the new settings-managwer
<ochosi> after editing a desktop-file, the launcher appears _live_ in the settings-manager or changes category without restarting
<mr_pouit> garcon rulez :P
<ochosi> yup
<mr_pouit> one fun thing could be to extend launcher plugin with bamf to track open apps like a dock :P
<ochosi> yeah, i would be more than just up for that
<ochosi> there's a very immature project in xfce-git
<ochosi> maybe you saw
<ochosi> btw, i think the settings-manager needs debugging
<mr_pouit> I remember the discussion, but forgot the project name ;>
<ochosi> seems like i can't add an endless amount of launchers
<ochosi> mr_pouit: is it possible that multiple categories interfere with each other?
<mr_pouit> ochosi: what's your issue?
<ochosi> mr_pouit: at some point the desktop-files i edited stopped showing up in the categories
<ochosi> or in settings-man at all
<ochosi> might have to test a bit more whether it's related to specific launchers
<ochosi> is there a reason why they wouldn't show up?
<ochosi> e.g. software sources
<ochosi> oh right, it had NoDisplay=true 
<ochosi> stupid me
<ochosi> pavucontrol also doesn't show up
<ochosi> currently i have these btw: http://www.zimagez.com/zimage/screenshot-05152012-053003pm.php
<ochosi> they really add up quickly
<baizon> i will switch to that theme right away :D
<baizon> after it is relesed :>
<ochosi> baizon: a first version will hopefully be out before the weekend. but there are still so many things to tweak and fix...
<baizon> ochosi: will it be available for 12.04?
<ochosi> baizon: well themes are easy to install, in fact you can "mkdir ~/.themes; cd ~/.themes; git clone git@github.com:shimmerproject/Blackbird.git" and then set blackbird in the appearance and wm-settings
<baizon> hmm, your right
<baizon> thanks :)
<ochosi> np
<ochosi> i need testers anyway
<ochosi> so don't hesitate to try it and give me feedback
<baizon> ok
<ochosi> mr_pouit: ok, maybe something is wrong with pavucontrol.desktop, at least i can't get it to show in the settings-manager
<ochosi> scott-work: just fyi, i'm working on a dark theme that bears some similarities to the previous u-studio default theme
<scott-work> ooooooh!  that is very interesting news, ochosi. i look forward to that :)
<ochosi> scott-work: you can test blackbird in the shimmer github-repo (mostly gtk2 and xfwm4 atm)
<ochosi> scott-work: btw, i'm not sure i'd recommend it as a default theme though. dark themes are really problematic. already came across a few libreoffice and smaller qt issues
<scott-work> cool, i look forward to testing this next week :)
<knome> more access for xubuntu-team in xubuntu.org \o/
<mprice> out of curiosity what is going on with the xubuntu-docs? I would like to bring it back to life instead of the sad state that its in now
<mprice> *help
<knome> mprice, there's plans to update them during the 12.10 cycle - feel free to join us
<knome> more details will be sent out to the development list later
<knome> but the process is definitely open for everyone, and i'm making sure it is really easy to hop in
 * GridCube points that not even the logos in the documentation are closely right
<mprice> the version number isn't even correct and in launchpad the development version is still stated as natty
<Unit193> Docs? Something other than manpage and archwiki?
<mprice> I'm more than willing to help clean it up and update it 
<knome> Unit193, applications menu -> help
<knome> mprice, great to hear that :)
<knome> we'll be start soon enough
<knome> GridCube, and yeah, we will update the logos and the appearance too ;)
<bramwelt> Any update on hosting an xubuntu mirror at the OSUOSL? I haven't recieved any mail from the list. :)
<knome> mprice, are you subscribed to the xubuntu-devel mailing list?
<knome> bramwelt, pleia2 should have been investigating it
<knome> bramwelt, if she didn't, i'm sure she'll go "oops" as she got that ^ ping ;)
<mprice> ya I am 
<knome> mprice, good. so stay tuned :)
<bramwelt> knome: Thanks! Just wanted to know if it was being looked at. :)
<knome> yup, we're on it
<Unit193> knome: Hmmm... Wrong channel again.
<knome> Unit193, what is?
<Unit193> I is.
<knome> heh. :)
<knome> don't worry
<knome> we should probably start logging -offtopic though to catch all the devel talk ;]]
<Unit193> Heck no.
<knome> well i'm just teasing you. ;)
<knome> and will continue, if dev talk continues at -ot ;)
#xubuntu-devel 2012-05-16
<pleia2> bramwelt: sorry for the delay in mirror thing, the Ubuntu Developer Summit was last week so I've been pretty snowed under (and so has everyone I've tried to talk to :)), we do appreciate the offer and I hope to have a response soon
<knome> hey pleia2 - the new plugin is in at xubuntu.org, so people on -team can now edit all not-yet-published posts and pages as well as upload images
<pleia2> sweet
<knome> got to sleep
<knome> catch you later
<bramwelt> pleia2: No worries, we just want to help you guys out! I appreciate you getting back to me, and I completely understand being overloaded. Thanks for the help! :)
<laite> ochosi: \o/
<ochosi> laite: welcome! :)
<baizon> =)
<Unit193> Heyho.
<laite> thanks
<baizon> o/
<ochosi> laite: we're currently putting together our roadmap for xubuntu 12.10
<laite> ok
<ochosi> this is kinda instructive: http://xubuntu.org/news/brainstorming-the-12-10-release/
<ochosi> you can easily see in the graph how our release process works
<ochosi> currently we're in the "roadmap brainstorming > finding assignee" part
<ochosi> you can also check the link to the actual roadmap to see what has been added there so far
<ochosi> we're a pretty small team, so there aren't too many items
<laite> I've actually begin to think about getting more involved with distro developing, as it's nice to give something back :)
<ochosi> cool
<ochosi> what kind of contributions would you be interested in?
<laite> Well, I'm not much of an artis but I could help with theming if needed
<ochosi> oh yes :)
<laite> I really don't know what kind of tasks are involved in xubuntu
<ochosi> that would in fact be swell
<laite> I mean, how much come straight from ubuntu
<ochosi> most of it
<ochosi> the xfce part mostly comes straight from debian
<ochosi> then there is a small group of packages that we touch a lot ourselves
<ochosi> much of that is artwork
<ochosi> and settings
<ochosi> (and a few distro-specific patches)
<ochosi> but generally we try to keep the delta with debian/upstream at a minimum
<laite> Right
<laite> I guess xfce 4.10 is coming to 12.10?
<ochosi> yeah, there is a ppa for 12.04 though
<ochosi> and it works really well, for as much as i've tested/used it so far
<laite> nice
<ochosi> yup, thank mr_pouit ;)
<ochosi> he and micahg are doing the packaging for xubuntu
<laite> I gotta take a better look at roadmap a bit later, but I'll start idling here in the meanwhile =)
<ochosi> ok cool
<ochosi> if you need any pointers always feel free to ping me
<ochosi> i'm (remotely) always here, if i'm away i'll read the backlog and reply when you're back
<baizon> ochosi: the window border is broken
<baizon> http://i.imgur.com/keVKC.png
<ochosi> baizon: you have to switch the window-manager theme to blackbird as well
<ochosi> you're obviously still using greybird there...
<baizon> a ok
<ochosi> actually the same is true for notifications, but i haven't changed them yet
<ochosi> so they're the same in blackbird and greybird
<ochosi> (considering to make them bright in blackbird though)
<baizon> ok there is one thing i dont liek
<baizon> like
<ochosi> yup?
<baizon> http://imgur.com/GI6N2
<baizon> when you select an item it is too dark
<baizon> imo
<ochosi> you mean in the new settings-manager?
<baizon> yes
<ochosi> yes, i agree, i haven't found time to fix that yet
<baizon> and update manager is broken
<baizon> the font color
<ochosi> update-manager is gtk3
<ochosi> i haven't really touched gtk3 yet
<baizon> ok
<ochosi> if you have the time/energy, put your current issues on a list somewhere
<ochosi> maybe a piratepad or something we can follow up on
<baizon> ok
<ochosi> bbl
<laite> one thing I would really like to see in Xubuntu 12.10 is a proper dual monitor-setup GUI - that caused me some problems before I learned how to set it up
<laite> does xfce 4.10 have anything better that 4.8?
<baizon> laite, arandr
<laite> baizon: yep, but imho it should be installed by default
<baizon> laite: it will be
<laite> great :)
<baizon> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Roadmap/Goals/Quantal
<ochosi> i'm working on a better display-dialog with mr_pouit 
<ochosi> see here: https://wiki.xfce.org/design/xfce4-settings/display
<ochosi> laite, baizon ^
<ochosi> input is appreciated
<baizon> omg
<baizon> very nice
<baizon> planned for 4.12? 
<baizon> the 1. mockup looks better imo
<ochosi> i guess
<ochosi> well yes, but it's also far more complex to implement
<baizon> yes, because of the preview 
<ochosi> hopefully much of that can be taken from ristretto's wallpaper-dialog
<laite> ochosi: looks really nice
<knome> baizon, again, please note that things on the roadmap doesn't mean they will be included.
<baizon> knome: i know :(
<baizon> im sorry
<knome> baizon, i told you this once, please try to remember
<baizon> will do :)
<knome> thanks
<baizon> i promise
<knome> it just confuses people..
<baizon> yes, your right
<baizon> hmm, ochosi blackbird is problematic with libreoffice, its hard to recognize the top icons 
<ochosi> baizon: i know, it's also problematic with some qt apps
<ochosi> not sure whether that's fixable
<baizon> ok
<baizon> but the window border are awesome
<ochosi> thanks :)
<baizon> will use them as default from now on
<laite> about the terminal theme: I find it a bit odd to have gray background, black is so much more 'traditional'
<ochosi> laite: it's supposed to create a flat terminal in combination with greybird
<mr_pouit> ochosi: yeah, 1 is better, but I don't know gtk/cairo enough to do it (volunteers welcome :P)
<ochosi> mr_pouit: check ristretto
<ochosi> mr_pouit: i mean specifically the wallpaper-dialog, pretty much all you need is there i think
<ochosi> it even adjusts the ratio of the rectangles to the screen resolutions
<ochosi> baizon: mind to post a screenshot of your libreoffice problems?
<baizon> ochosi: yep
<baizon> ochosi: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1cwT-kuOe3Lxxam0peOMi2enZdgKYZqlWV_pIsKkiFS4/edit
<ochosi> baizon: which ones are hard to see? the greyed-out ones?
<baizon> yes
<baizon> at the bottom
<ochosi> ah, in that case you should specify that you mean the statusbar
<ochosi> and it's in fact the text that isn't readable
<ochosi> not the icons
<baizon> done
<ochosi> mind to make that doc open so i can edit as well?
<baizon> ochosi: yep will do, sec
<baizon> done
<baizon> ok, alacarte isnt working with xfce 4.10 :(
<mr_pouit> what's the issue?
<mr_pouit> (also check that you have the latest xfce4-session from the ppa~)
<baizon> when i try to add an item it crashes
<baizon> mr_pouit: yes i have
<baizon> but i'll check right away
<baizon> hmm your right
<baizon> got the old one
<mr_pouit> I updated it this morning, so that's not surprising ;-)
<baizon> ok
<baizon> ochosi: added an example
<baizon> btw. the font is broken within USC
<ochosi> USC is also gtk3
<ochosi> you have to check the gtk-version for the apps, otherwise adding bugs doesn't make sense
<baizon> ochosi: yes yes i know, thats why i just added "an example", not a new bug
<ochosi> oh, ok
<baizon> brb restart
<baizon> yep working again
<baizon> thanks mr_pouit 
<baizon> not perfect, but working
<baizon> hmm
<baizon> mtpaint isnt bad
<baizon> but no 3.40 version
<laite> ochosi: I've been reading all things concerning xubuntu-developing, roadmap etc. but I'm not really sure what I could do to help ...I mean, it is already an excellent distro :)
<ochosi> laite: ooh, there are _so_ many projects in my head
<laite> =)
<ochosi> also, if you want to help with artwork, you're always more than welcome
<ochosi> and bugfixing/testing or writing docs is also an endless task
<laite> I guess from earlier in channel you're building new, dark theme for xubuntu
<ochosi> yup
<ochosi> won't be default, but yeah, i'm workin on it
<laite> Btw, I gotta say that xubuntu is one of the most beautiful distros I've tried
<ochosi> thanks :)
<laite> good work
<ochosi> if you wanna take a look at the dark theme (it's WIP), you can find it here: https://github.com/shimmerproject/Blackbird
<laite> I installed xfce 4.10 and it's really nice
<laite> gotta love that new application launcher
<ochosi> yup, it's great
<ochosi> also the new settings-manager
<ochosi> it's so easy now to plug in external dialogs/launchers
<laite> is 'selected item' going to be that light blue in final blackbird
<laite> it's a bit light for my taste
<ochosi> well that's the current plan
<laite> other than that, looks really good
<laite> k
<ochosi> ah, colors aren't finalized, if you mean that
<laite> yes
<ochosi> atm these are "general directions"
<ochosi> a starting point
<laite> It's a bit inconvinient that one has to change appearance and window title from different places, but I can see why they are grouped like that in xfce
<laite> I've been using bluebird since installing xubuntu, it's somehow refreshing theme =)
<ochosi> actually there is already a branch in xfce-git with these dialogs merged
<ochosi> i mean a real "appearance" dialog that has gtk-theme, icons and wm-theme
<ochosi> it wasn't finished in time for 4.10
<laite> oh, that would be welcome
<ochosi> laite: if you wanna work on bluebird btw, that'd be great
<ochosi> i haven't had enough time to take good enough care of it
<ochosi> (the gtk3 port is somewhat sloppy)
<laite> sure, I could do that
<ochosi> cool
<laite> Is the purpose of gtk3 to mimic gtk2 as well as possible?
<ochosi> yes, i'd say so
<ochosi> but you can also fiddle with the gtk2 if you want
<ochosi> i don't see myself having enough time to work on bluebird for real in the future
<laite> do you have recommendations with testing/modifying themes, applications-wise etc.
<ochosi> laite: hmm, what do you mean exactly?
<laite> for example something that'll show all gtk-elements for selected theme etc., preferably for both gtk2/3
<ochosi> oh right
<ochosi> well there is "the-widget-factory"
<ochosi> you can find a gtk3 version on launchpad or elsewhere
<ochosi> and you can install the gtk2 version from the repos
<ochosi> be aware though that the gtk3 version doesn't show all widgets
<ochosi> (at least most likely)
<ochosi> the gtk-switch usually isn't there
<laite> Cool, thanks
<ochosi> and: there are lots of special cases that you can't see with twf
<ochosi> you might also wanna take a look at gtkparasite
<ochosi> there's a gtk2 version and i think the gtk3 version is in progress
<ochosi> on github
<ochosi> with gtkparasite you can find out widget-names and hierarchies
<baizon> canonical should switch to git :)
<ochosi> especially useful if _one_ app is borked
<ochosi> or for application specific theming
<laite> aww, I love gtkparasite already
<laite> so cute
<ochosi> hehe
<ochosi> yeah
<ochosi> and practical
<ochosi> very practical
<ochosi> ok, i gotta go home now, be back in ~2hrs
<GridCube> knome, ping
<laite> ochosi: have you tried awf (A Widget factory), it can show both gtk2 and gtk3 in separate windows and select theme from menu: https://github.com/valr/awf
<ochosi> laite: no, i haven't, sounds promising!
<ochosi> laite: cool, i just installed the oneiric-package in precise, works great
<ochosi> i'll copy that package to the shimmer ppa for ease of installation
<laite> ochosi: I'm thinking of changing Bluebird's close-button to simple cross like in graybird, do you have any objections?
<laite> instead of 'cross within a filled circle'
<ochosi> don't think i have objections, no
<ochosi> bbl
<bluesabre> knome: I think I saw that Ubuntu Q is going to try to ship python3 only.  Are there similar plans for Xubuntu?
<micahg> no
<micahg> unless I missed a blueprint :)
<bluesabre> I didn't think there were, just checking
<micahg> it'll be enough work to get transitioned to 4.10 and maybe a gtk3 panel
<bluesabre> Understandably
<ochosi> laite: i guess you need commit/push rights to bluebird-github
<ochosi> laite: you're now in the bluebird-group so you can push to that repo. would be nice if you develop in branches, so we can review and then merge the stuff
<ochosi> bbl
<laite> ochosi: ok, thanks - just to be sure, I should create a new branch in shimmerproject/Bluebird where I push my modifications?
<GridCube> knome, ping
 * scott-work is wondering what work awaits the ubuntu studio team for xfce 4.10 and gtk3  Oo
<micahg> scott-work: you'll get most of it for free
<micahg> scott-work: and if you can point out any duplicated effort you need that shouldn't exist, we can try to consolidate it
<scott-work> micahg: defintely! (point out duplicate effort and try to consolidate)
<scott-work> micahg: the email between you and alessio for backporting has been very intriguing, the backport tools have greatly improved
<scott-work> going home :)
<ochosi> laite: yup, something like that
<ochosi> GridCube: i think knome is away till friday or so
<GridCube> oh
<GridCube> :(
<ochosi> at least iirc
<GridCube> i have a website questioning
<ochosi> what kind of?
<GridCube> i have to include images on the tutorial im making and i dont know how to do it properly
<GridCube> they are A LOT of screenshots
<ochosi> do you want a gallery with next|previous buttons or just post them in a row?
<GridCube> i dont know
<ochosi> but is it for the xubuntu site or somewhere else?
<ochosi> for the x.org there should be a plugin that does the slideshow (like on the frontpage)
<ochosi> haven't looked into it though
<GridCube> ochosi, is for the xubuntu.org
<ochosi> well anyway, friday is not that late, maybe best to wait for knome :)
<pleia2> GridCube: slide show like on the current front page?
<GridCube> prolly
<pleia2> that one is knome's photoslider plugin: https://github.com/knomepasi/WordPress-plugins/tree/master/photoslider
<GridCube> or maybe i should add an image after each point
<GridCube> thats what i wanted to ask knome 
<pleia2> is this for an article, or..?
<GridCube> an article, the alternate ISO installing guide
<pleia2> ah, gotcha
<pleia2> is it a lot different from the ubuntu one?
<GridCube> i don't think so
<GridCube> no
<pleia2> why have our own docs for it?
<GridCube> http://xubuntu.org/?p=1165&preview=true
<GridCube> what?
<pleia2> I'm wondering why we'd want to write our own alternate install directions if it's similar to the existing ones for Ubuntu (and Debian)
<GridCube> oh
<GridCube> i don't know
<GridCube> i never found one that was good enough
<pleia2> seems like the time is better spent contributing to the wider docs
<GridCube> :P
<ochosi> well, if GridCube has already done it then i don't see any harm putting this up
<pleia2> and they are working next cycle to do away with the alternate installer entirely, bundling an ncurses one into the regular CD
<GridCube> D:
<pleia2> (it's a real pain to spin up and maintain whole separate isos just for a separate ncurses installer)
<pleia2> ochosi: yeah, I'm just wondering if it would be better on help.ubuntu.com/community/
<ochosi> pleia2: hmm, i agree
<pleia2> and maybe add a https://help.ubuntu.com/community/GraphicalInstall/Xubuntu too while we're at it (Kubuntu has one!)
<GridCube> :P yes i understand
<pleia2> GridCube: sorry, I don't mean to be discouraging, just want to make sure our docs and help resources don't end up getting all scattered like our dev-wiki-website stuff has
<GridCube> :)
<GridCube> ok
<pleia2> half on the website, half on the wiki, no one can ever find anything ;)
<GridCube> im not discouraged
<GridCube> i do think stuff should be on the help 
<pleia2> maybe put it on help.ubuntu.com and then do an article on the website advertising that it's now there and updated?
<pleia2> I can help write a GraphicalInstall/Xubuntu too so we can announce both!
<pleia2> docs improvements are on our roadmap this cycle, we should probably be fleshing out a comprehensive strategy for all this (maybe someone is, I don't really know all that much about how xubuntu docs are managed :))
<GridCube> :)
<ochosi> pleia2: hummyeah, thing is, xfce-docs are now online-only
<ochosi> so either we pull their wiki into an offline resource or help will only be available for those with internet access
<ochosi> (not sure about the size of the wiki btw)
<pleia2> http://www.howtoforge.com/the-perfect-desktop-xubuntu-12.04 is interesting (adds a bunch of tools to make it a "full-fledged replacement for a Windows desktop")
#xubuntu-devel 2012-05-17
<ochosi> pleia2: is there a second page or is it really just the app-selection?
<pleia2> ochosi: there are 4 pages to the article
<GridCube> :D
<GridCube> yes is pretty nice
<GridCube> i like that last app recomendation
<GridCube> nightdale
<laite> ochosi: I created branch 'BBird-laite' and pushed my modification for simpler close-icons
<laite> I think it looks pretty nice, but of course there's the question of tradition/continuity with Bluebird-theme
<ochosi> laite: right. well we'll see. i don't think tradition should matter all that much, the most important thing to me is if it's maintained properly :)
<ochosi> laite: (and since it's git, people can always download the "original" window borders)
<ochosi> one more note: for theme-development stuff you might also head over to #shimmer, that's where our commit-bot is running and where we usually discuss fine-tuning of themes
<laite> k, cool
<laite> If somebody wants to say an opinion, here's pic with old buttons: i.imgur.com/CMTU0.png and here's the same picture with simpler close-button: i.imgur.com/skcrF.jpg
<ochosi> what are those funny faces in the right-top corner? :)
<Unit193> (Little bit of NSFW warning on the second)
<laite> ochosi: I have no idea =D
<ochosi> heh
<chelz> i kinda like the old buttons
<ochosi> laite: you also seem to have quite a funny screen-resolution (or is it cropped?)
<chelz> but i always change themes anyway
<chelz> kapy terry everywhere
<laite> ochosi: it's cropped, my workspace is 2x(1920x1080)
<ochosi> laite: oh right, that makes more sense
<laite> One (obvious) idea: since xubuntu is considered 'newbie-friendly' distro, could it have something similar on first boot that mint currently has - dialog with a lot of options for newcomers who don't know what to do with linux and how
<laite> http://tinyurl.com/d25w7xr
<laite> ^pic of linux mint's welcome-dialog
<baizon> not needed imo
<ochosi> not a totally bad idea
<ochosi> but kinda windowsy, those welcome-screens
<baizon> yes
<baizon> windows xp got it
<baizon> but was droped with vista and 7
<baizon> 90% wont look at it
<baizon> the first thing i did installing mint was disabling that window :D
<baizon> it would be kinda nice "help" window
<baizon> or "about"
<laite> I agree that (at least) 90% close and disable it immediately without even looking, just remembered my own first installation of linux and the 'ok, I've got os running - what do I do now?'-feeling I got
<laite> when everything is new and scary :P
<baizon> even when i first got the xp installation i didnt watch at the welcome window
<baizon> nobody likes to read, people like to test / learn :)
<laite> yeah, but that was truly horrible with animated windows and everything =D
<laite> and it seemed to load forever
<baizon> yes thats why i think this window would do great as help or about, but not as a "welcome screen"
<laite> right
<ochosi> well yeah, we have to do something about our help and doc anyway...
<laite> in roadmap there is 'Refresh the offline documentation ', but what exactly and where is this documentation?
<laite> I've deleted 'help'-item from my main menu *blush*
<laite> I looked into mintwelcome (https://github.com/linuxmint/mintwelcome) and it's a quite simple python program, shouldn't be too hard to do something similar
<ochosi> mhm
<ochosi> well the thing is that atm the xfce doc is in a wiki
<ochosi> (before it was in mallard)
<ochosi> so they keep their doc online-only
<ochosi> the question is whether we want to ship a static version
<ochosi> and if we do, whether it should be in wiki-form
<bluesabre_laptop> ochosi: Wanna have a look at the GTK3 catfish with zeitgeist suggestions?  https://launchpad.net/catfish-gtk3
<ochosi> bluesabre_laptop: woot, you mean you actually already started??
<ochosi> bluesabre_laptop: ok, the gtk3 part looks great
<ochosi> i don't get any suggestions yet
<ochosi> do i need extra stuff for that?
<ochosi> (already have zeitgeist and activity journal installed)
<ochosi> btw, one really easy thing to fix would be to search when hitting enter (when the gtkentry has focus)
<ochosi> another would be to have the home-folder selected as default search location instead of catfish's own folder (which is kinda useless imo)
<ochosi> oooh, now i do get suggestions
<ochosi> great stuff!
<ochosi> still getting quite a few warnings:
<ochosi> (catfish.pyc:6524): Gtk-WARNING **: /build/buildd/gtk+3.0-3.4.1/./gtk/gtkliststore.c:851: Unable to convert from gint to glong
<ochosi> (and the mimetype icons aren't found, but that's not so important)
<bluesabre_laptop> yeah, I was going to fix each of those things that you just mentioned.  That's just what I threw together overnight. A lot of what is displayed to terminal would probably be displayed by the gtk2 version too.  I added some extra output for temp debugging
<ochosi> yeah, but really, this is so cool! :)
<bluesabre_laptop> awesome
<ochosi> i'm a huge fan already
<ochosi> i think with a few UI tweaks this will be a great step forward
<ochosi> i'll draw up a quick mockup
<bluesabre_laptop> Good to hear.  Let me know any suggestions you have for the UI.  For this, I just tried to get a working clone
<bluesabre_laptop> cool
<bluesabre_laptop> doesn't have to be too quick.  I won't be back online for at least an hour
<bluesabre_laptop> :D
<ochosi> heh
<ochosi> well i'll go out to play boccia in an hour or so
<ochosi> i'm thinking something like appfinder
<ochosi> very minimal
<ochosi> and then the results-window pops up underneath the searchbar
<ochosi> (not entirely sure yet, just an idea)
<ochosi> bluesabre_laptop: something very simple maybe: http://imagebin.org/212684
<ochosi> basically the menu-button on the top-right would reveal the settings that the sidebar currently shows
<ochosi> oops, i forgot to add the "folder-to-search-in"-widget...
<ochosi> better now: http://imagebin.org/212685
<ochosi> the sidebar could also be shown/hidden with an arrow-button (instead of the properties/menu-button)
<ochosi> but really, a lot of buttons/widgets have to go from the sidebar
<ochosi> the close-button, the find-button, and the catfish-title at least
<ochosi> (at a later point, we could throw this in a panel-plugin, that'd be really kewl)
<ochosi> bbl
<bluesabre> I'm back
<bluesabre> ochosi: I like that mockup (and I'm sure the elementary team would love it).  That would be easy to implement, I'm sure.
<bluesabre> ochosi: Another option would be to have an "advanced" button next to the search box that would unhide a second toolbar with the settings.  But the AppMenu is probably a better option.
<knome> bluesabre, re: python3, we're following ubuntu on what they do, but that's not one of our specific goals
<bluesabre> Cool.  Thanks for getting back to me knome
<knome> no problem, just got home from summer cottage
<knome> i think generally the stance about 4.10 should be exaclty "unless you really need it, don't install it"
<knome> ok, bbl
<bluesabre> ochosi: I think the new InfoBar widget might be useful to display while the search is running.  Just show that the search is in progress, and have the cancel button there.  Thoughts?
<ochosi> bluesabre: hmm, infobar is always a good idea yes, but i'm not sure it's ideal for progress
<ochosi> bluesabre: but i'll try to include that in a mockup, then it's easier to imagine/think about it
<bluesabre> ochosi, not so much for displaying progress as saying * Search in progress...      [Cancel]
<ochosi> ok right
<ochosi> well the "classical" thing to do would be add a gtk-spinner somewhere
<ochosi> but that's usually not in an infobar
<bluesabre> true
<ochosi> maybe the most elegant place to position the spinner would be the results window
<ochosi> ah wait, no i have to draw a mockup of that first :)
<ochosi> bluesabre: theoretically you could throw the spinner and the cancel button inside the search-gtk-entry
<bluesabre> hmmm
<ochosi> too much?
<bluesabre> hadn't thought of that
<ochosi> i mean the cancel-button could just replace the searchglass
<bluesabre> right
<bluesabre> I could do that
<ochosi> that would kinda make sense to me
<ochosi> i guess progressbars don't make sense in this context, hm?
<bluesabre> nope
<bluesabre> unless you use one of the silly bouncing ones
<ochosi> cause then you could do it like web-browsers do to indicate the page-load process
<bluesabre> but those rarely make sense
<ochosi> hehe, no, those are really silly :)
<ochosi> bluesabre: a quick mockup of how i's imagine a panel-plugin: http://imagebin.org/212727
<ochosi> in this case it would have to be a kind of "global" search (or maybe a search of /home)
<ochosi> cause i think a folder-combo would be a bit too much there
<bluesabre> I agree
<bluesabre> but that does look cool
<ochosi> the borders aren't really perfect yet
<ochosi> in fact it should be possible to abuse the UI code of the linelight-plugin for that
<ochosi> it's pretty similar iirc
<bluesabre> sounds promising
<ochosi> it's this one: http://goodies.xfce.org/projects/panel-plugins/xfce4-linelight-plugin
<ochosi> meh, of course i can't install it here because it's still built against the old panel :(
<mr_pouit> ochosi: it's in the ppa afaik
<ochosi> mr_pouit: aha. strange then
<mr_pouit> (the only one that uses some api removed from libxfce4util 4.10 :p)
<ochosi> meh
<ochosi> yeah, i mean it's not soo useful, it never worked so well
<ochosi> i just wanted to look at it again to see whether there's anything we can use for a potential catfish-panel-plugin
<ochosi> mr_pouit: so i assume you've already commenced to work hard on the display dialog refresh? :D
<ochosi> there's in fact one thing i forgot in the mockups: a "reload display-list"-button
<ochosi> also: we could pop up huge numbers ("1", "2") on the displays with the respective numbers, so users could more easily identify them
<mr_pouit> no, I didn't start :p
<knome> heh, today we beat ScottL's country ;)
<knome> have i missed something from the blueprints already registered in launchpad?
<knome> https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/topic-quantal-flavor-xubuntu shows a quick tree to access them all
<knome> (i'm mostly referring to the work items, is there something obvious missing)
<bramwelt> d/win 3
<pleia2> astraljava: we should chat soon about qa/testing stuff (I learned lots at UDS!)
<knome> mm-hmm
<knome> don't do that on saturday, i'm going to be offline for most for the day
<knome> well, until 7pm-10pm UTC most probably
<knome> but i'm going to be dead tired when i get back ;)
<pleia2> the weekend following is a holiday weekend in the states and I'll be out of town
<pleia2> but I'll be around this sunday
<knome> sunday should work relatively fine
<Unit193> Wait, it is?
<pleia2> Unit193: memorial day weekend
<Unit193> Sweetness! We may be going out of town!
<pleia2> no no, I am going out of town, you are staying here with Xubuntu :)
<knome> haha
<knome> WITH ME
<Unit193> ...I'm getting message pop up sounds, so weird.
#xubuntu-devel 2012-05-18
<astraljava> pleia2: knome: This Sunday could work fine, yeah.
<pleia2> great :)
<pleia2> what time UTC is good for you? (keeping in mind that it's 23:30 yesterday right now here ;))
<astraljava> pleia2: I should be awake from about 0600 UTC until 2100 UTC, and thus far I'm only watching the ice hockey finals on that day. Well maybe go roller-skating if it's a nice weather. :) But that means, any time of day between those times is fine.
<pleia2> ok cool, I'll probably pop on around 17:00 and give you a nudge
<astraljava> That's great! Thanks for pushing things. I've been surprisingly busy on this early cycle, so haven't had a chance of getting a control really, yet.
<astraljava> I'll try to get up to speed before our meeting.
<knome> 17 utc sounds good
<ochosi> morning everyone
<knome> hey ochosi 
<ochosi> hi
<ochosi> bbl
<knome> clearly a troll in #x earlier
<astraljava> Obviously.
<knome> hai!
 * knome has now a few kg's less hair
<bluesabre_laptop> ochosi: Fixed and added some stuff to catfish.  Default location is home, search starts when you hit enter.  Locate is now a backup/additional suggestion backend.
<bluesabre_laptop> bbl
<mr_pouit> ochosi: is blackbird ~usable~? (i.e. can I upload it to quantal, or is it too early?)
<ochosi> mr_pouit: well, it's kinda usable, the gtk3 version still sucks though :)
<ochosi> mr_pouit: maybe in a similar state as albatross, so the answer is maybe yes ;)
<ochosi> bluesabre_laptop: cool, pulling from bzr right now!
<ochosi> bluesabre_laptop: works great! btw, it's really funny how the locate/zeitgeist suggestions are fast and the find-search is slow :D
<ochosi> bluesabre: not sure you read the messages i posted before
<ochosi> bluesabre: anyway, seems to be working great
<mr_pouit> ochosi: ok, do you have a short desc for blackbird? (check the description of shimmer-themes if you want to change something too ;-)
<ochosi> mr_pouit: you mean the desc in launchpad?
<mr_pouit> of the package yeah (I guess it shows up on lp too)
<ochosi> for blackbird i'll quickly update the README if that's fine with you
<ochosi> mr_pouit: the desc of the package looks ok to me
<ochosi> mr_pouit: i'll pastebin you a similar paragraph about blackbird (the readme is really something different)
<bluesabre> ochosi, thanks!  Yeah, I wasn't able to see the previous messages
<ochosi> bluesabre: ah ok, all i said before that it's funny how the suggestions with locate/zeitgeist are fast and the actual search with find is slow =)
<bluesabre> haha
<ochosi> is catfish seriously using glade?
<bluesabre> yup
<bluesabre> well
<bluesabre> kinda
<ochosi> i thought glade was superseded by something else for gtk3
<bluesabre> Kinda
<ochosi> mkay
<bluesabre> Glade is now done with GtkBuilder
<ochosi> ah right, that was it
<ochosi> i'm fiddling with the layout now
<ochosi> just dropped the "close" button :)
<ochosi> is there also a GUI for gtkbuilder like there was for glade?
<bluesabre> The newer version of glade
<bluesabre> I think there are 2 packages now
<bluesabre> glade and glade-gtk2
<bluesabre> glade being the newer one
<ochosi> bluesabre: quick and dirty :p http://www.zimagez.com/zimage/screenshot-05182012-044051pm.php
<ochosi> i mean i could now drop the stuff in the sidebar entirely to get the layout, but then again, doing that without adding a menu is limiting the functionality quite a bit :)
<bluesabre> True.  I was investigating how to make a button with a menu, which is easy enough, but to get the darn menu to fall beneath the button (instead of the cursor) seems to be a challenge
<ochosi> there is certainly c-code i can point you to that does that
<ochosi> i can also offer perl :)
<bluesabre> haha
<ochosi> whatever seems easier for you
<ochosi> or in fact vala, not c
<bluesabre> sure, send me something and I can have a look at it
<ochosi> bluesabre: check this https://github.com/shimmerproject/gmusicbrowser/blob/4a0644db1f84f6d5f65e3bf50b3af303a8515329/gmusicbrowser_layout.pm#L3841
<ochosi> this creates a toggle-button that stays pressed as long as the menu is open and displays a normal gtk-menu below it
<ochosi> so pretty much exactly what elementary does in its apps
<ochosi> bluesabre: i can also try to dig up the midori code for the popup menu (that would be the vala-example)
<bluesabre> that's all right.  I'll figure it out.  The popup function has a pos parameter which you pass to it and its supposed to be a callback function.  Haven't had much luck with that working though.
<bluesabre> I'd set it up, and then python would segfault.  I'll ask around to find something out
<satop> why a separate audio and video player in xubuntu 12.10 ? lets use vlc for both as i already did
<ochosi> satop: vlc is qt and therefore not an option
<ochosi> bluesabre: just asked in elementary, seems like this is a python app with the menu-button implemented: http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~elementary-apps/dexter-rolodex/dexter/files
<bluesabre> O.o sweet jesus it worked
<ochosi> cool!
<satop> what has Jesus to do with it 
<ochosi> bluesabre: have you pushed it already? :)
<bluesabre> not yet.  I was just testing it.  Still want the interface to look like this?  http://imagebin.org/212685
<ochosi> i'd say so, at least i haven't had any better ideas up to now :)
<ochosi> theoretically we could throw a file-type filter somewhere
<ochosi> that's also something people might wanna access quickly
<ochosi> but anyway, i think cleaning up the interface like this is a good start
<ochosi> we can always add new stuff to it
<bluesabre> alrighty.  I'll probably get on that here shortly.
<ochosi> great!
<bluesabre> ochosi: thoughts on limits, filtering, and search method in an "advanced" dialog?
<ochosi> bluesabre: we could make the advanced dialog a toolbar underneath the searchbar
<ochosi> bluesabre: i'm not 100% happy about the filetype widget, but i have to think of something else first
<bluesabre> ochosi: want to have a button to show the advanced toolbar?  if so, have a preference where?
<ochosi> i'm wondering whether it's too hidden if we throw it in the menu
<ochosi> with a gtk-check "Advanced search options" or something
<ochosi> and if it's ticked, the toolbar is there, otherwise it's not (not==default)
<bluesabre> that doesn't sound like a bad idea
<ochosi> btw, one more thing we should fix at some point is set the window-icon correctly
<ochosi> at the moment it's hardcoded in glade
<bluesabre> yeah
<ochosi> which is why it doesn't show up in xfwm-tabwin (alt+tab)
<ochosi> and it's not themeable
<ochosi> i can draw a new appicon for it if we want something more fancy than a simple searchglass :)
<bluesabre> maybe
<ochosi> for the filetypes: maybe we could show a sidebar or something that shows a list of the filetypes
<ochosi> that filters the result-set
<ochosi> so they wouldn't be just pre-defined but based on the actual result-set
<ochosi> (just an idea)
<laite> perhaps something similar than what comes in google's imagesearch, the sidebar with a few date/type/etc. options (just an idea :)
<ochosi> laite: yeah, probably a sidebar is better than a toolbar for the advanced search stuff
<bluesabre> I agree.  The extra toolbar begins to get cluttered with options anyway
<ochosi> google might not be the worst source of inspiration for the search :)
<ochosi> i'll try to come up with a mockup for the advanced search mode a bit later today/tonight
<bluesabre> I might have a rough version of an advanced sidebar sometime within the hour
<ochosi> wow nice
<bluesabre> glade and python let you do things quickly
<bluesabre> sometimes without thinking
<ochosi> :)
<ochosi> never used glade
<ochosi> always did my packing with perl by hand
<bluesabre> (which occassionally comes back to bite you in the future)
<ochosi> which is fun, but also a bit tedious
<ochosi> yeah, maybe if/when there's a vala-port ;)
<ochosi> although i'm not sure python would be the bottleneck with this app anyway
<ochosi> i mean the interface is minimal
<bluesabre> yeah
<bluesabre> the app is bottlenecked no matter what you do because it will always rely on system calls
<ochosi> mhm
<ochosi> i guess at some point we should ask kalikiana whether he minds if we supersede the old catfish with this
<ochosi> so that it can get packaged properly (and everywhere)
<bluesabre> true
<ochosi> (i think he won't mind)
<bluesabre> according to his page, he's looking for a new maintainer
<ochosi> btw, this also sounds like a good idea "add filter for executables/ desktop files"
<bluesabre> yeah
<ochosi> and not that hard to do
<bluesabre> saw the todo list too, huh?  :D
<ochosi> hehe
<ochosi> yeah
<ochosi> cleaning up my tabs ;)
<ochosi> ok folks, i'll be back in a bit
<bluesabre> ochosi: glade preview of sidebar: http://imagebin.org/212897
<ochosi> very cool!
<ochosi> let's really make this look a bit like google-images
<bluesabre> good idea
<ochosi> maybe a text-only list of types (Image,Video,Music,Application, etc)
<ochosi> i'm wondering whether we should swap the combo and the search-entry...
<bluesabre> No requests for filtering on color size :P
<ochosi> not sure what's the more "logical" place for it
<bluesabre> *color
<ochosi> hehe
<ochosi> well, nothing too image-specific i'd say
<ochosi> ok, now i really gotta run
<ochosi> bbiab
<bluesabre> ochosi:  something a little more like this?  http://imagebin.org/212909
<ochosi> not sure the limit-results is needed that much
<ochosi> the rest looks very good already!
<ochosi> the search method should probably also go somewhere else
<ochosi> i'm wondering whether we should use locate-only by default
<bluesabre> locate doesn't find new files though
<ochosi> and then show an inforbar or something to search with find
<bluesabre> you have to update the database, which is either done automatically or by admin
<bluesabre> ah
<ochosi> i'm thinking like this: first show a quick list of results â then ask the user: did you not find the droid you were looking for? search thoroughly
<bluesabre> lol
<bluesabre> that might be a good idea
<ochosi> just to take the edge of the long wait for search results with find
<ochosi> i don't know enough about how you get the result-sets, but another way would be to search with locate and incrementally add results found with find
<bluesabre> not a bad idea
<ochosi> i mean letting locate and find run in two different threads
<ochosi> not sure how easy that is
<ochosi> but then the user can always cancel when his files are found
<bluesabre> threads can get finicky
<ochosi> yeah, maybe the other variant is easier to implement and good enough
<bluesabre> I kinda like the idea of a second, super search
<ochosi> mhm
<ochosi> maybe we could also add a menuitem to update the search-index
<ochosi> about the sidebar: let's not use italic headers for that and drop as many labels as we can :) (less work for translators)
<ochosi> i think it's intuitively clear what the different items filter on
<ochosi> s/Past week/Last week/ (but yeah, up to you, you're the native speaker ;) )
<bluesabre> I just copied google
<ochosi> ah
<ochosi> interesting, didn't notice it there
<ochosi> oh noes, my google is german... :)
<bluesabre> haha
<bluesabre> yeah, this version of the interface will have the sidebar, menu, and infobar
<bluesabre> once I can finish putting it together in a little bit
<bluesabre> lol
<ochosi> hehe
<ochosi> so for the sidebar, it should contain only this imo: "Any time|Past week|Other|Custom<Separator/spacer>Documents|Pictures|Music|Videos|Applications|Other|Custom"
<ochosi> all the other labels and stuff are kinda too much
<bluesabre> I agree.  I think Limit Results might be beneficial to keep around though.
<bluesabre> but maybe not
<bluesabre> I don't think most tools have any option to limit how many results you get back
<ochosi> i'm not sure i see the point of limiting results
<ochosi> the search isn't faster
<bluesabre> yeah
<bluesabre> let's throw it out
<bluesabre> then the sidebar is just for filtering
<bluesabre> and can be much cleaner
<ochosi> mhm
<ochosi> we can always put stuff back in
<ochosi> but there are maybe other â more useful â filters we might wanna add
<ochosi> and let's maybe swap the search-entry and the folder-selector
<ochosi> it's somehow more logical in terms of hierarchy
<bluesabre> http://imagebin.org/212915
<ochosi> let's drop the "filter results" label as well :)
<bluesabre> Agreed
<ochosi> let's try to drop the other two as well (maybe just comment them out) to see whether it still looks intuitive
<bluesabre> maybe  http://imagebin.org/212916
<ochosi> looks good
<ochosi> maybe a spacer on top of anytime
<bluesabre> that helps
<bluesabre> oh yeah, the reason for the search method was so you could search with beagle or other backends
<bluesabre> but...
<bluesabre> does anybody use beagle anymore?
 * micahg thought we dropped that from the archive
<ochosi> yeah, i think locate and find and zeitgeist are sufficient
<micahg> yep, dropped in natty IIRC
<ochosi> the only other alternative i know of is tracker
<bluesabre> ochosi: it might be a little bit.  the interface is plugged in and shows now, but for some reason my queries no longer work
<ochosi> hihi
<ochosi> ok
<ochosi> no worries
<Unit193> ochosi: See me comment on searchmonkeye?
<ochosi> Unit193: yeah, haven't looked at it yet
<ochosi> bbiab
<Unit193> Coolio.
<bluesabre> ochosi: nvm, I had exact search on.  A few more tweaks and I'll upload the latest.
<bluesabre> http://imagebin.org/212923
<ochosi> cool
<bluesabre> ochosi: check it out.  filters currently do not work though.
<ochosi> bluesabre: will do in one sec, going for a smoke :)
<mr_pouit> Xubuntu will be less great because of that smoke! ;P
<bluesabre> yes, ochosi, mr_pouit is right.  :D
<bluesabre> ochosi: went ahead and committed another change.  bzr commit -m "Find icon changes to cancel icon when running.  Sidebar widgets can now enable/disable custom buttons."
<micahg> mr_pouit: I took care of ristretto
 * GridCube ponders if he got into the #mafia channel
<Unit193> I kinda read it the same as GridCube. ;P
<GridCube> ristretto is gone Unit193, its gone, dont think about it anymore
<ochosi> mr_pouit: hihi
<ochosi> bluesabre_laptop: looks and works great!
<ochosi> well, that was a longish cigarette...
<micahg> mr_pouit: mousepad done as well
#xubuntu-devel 2012-05-19
<mr_pouit> micahg: thanks! (nice to known mousepad doesn't use the dropped functions :p)
<ochosi> mr_pouit: do you need anything from me for the display-dialog? i mean is there any way i can help you with it (apart from what i did already)?
<mr_pouit> ochosi: do you have a mockup for the --minimal dialog box?
<ochosi> mr_pouit: not yet, good point
<ochosi> i think what i'd want there is a quick way to extend/clone the desktop (with best guess) and a button to go to the actual settings dialog
<mr_pouit> yeah, the mockup from the spec isn't too bad I guess
<ochosi> you mean from ubuntu's spec?
<ochosi> (wow, solarized is such a beautiful terminal-color-theme)
<ochosi> i think that's what we should use for 12.10
<ochosi> would be nice to have support for multiple color-palettes in xfce4-terminal
<mr_pouit> meh, I'm not happy, at this rate, 4.12 will be gtk2
<ochosi> nick just isn't happy with gtk3
<ochosi> he has repeatedly stated that now
<ochosi> and since he does all the work, i think it's pretty safe to assume now that they'll stick to gtk2
<ochosi> would you mind if we patch a launcher for catfish into thunar?
<ochosi> instead of the "home"-button next to the locationbar
<ochosi> a simple "search in this folder" launcher
<mr_pouit> (but it's naive to assume that gtk3 will have fixed all issues after xfce 4.12 anyway)
<mr_pouit> there's already a custom action on right click?
<ochosi> yes, but it's not discoverable enough imo
<ochosi> and now that sean is pimping catfish i think we can dare to make it more prominent
<ochosi> (yes, i totally agree. i've no clue what the long-term - or even mid-term - strategy is here. it's more just a "boo, gtk3 sucks"...)
<mr_pouit> I think thunar uses the pathbar style by default
<mr_pouit> (no home button)
<mr_pouit> but feel free to replace it
<ochosi> what if we patch the search-button into the pathbar as well?
<ochosi> i mean just pack the pathbar inside a hbox: "pathbar | search"
<ochosi> pathbar is a toolbar and takes care of it's overflow anyway
<ochosi> so it shouldn't be a real issue
<ochosi> just a few lines of code for opening catfish in the current-dir
<ochosi> at least i'd love to do that as long as we don't have a panel-plugin for catfish
<ochosi> or would that create a potential dependency issue?
<ochosi> (i mean thunar would then depend on catfish because of the stupid button)
<ochosi> (or just add a check whether catfish is there, otherwise hide the button?)
<mr_pouit> yeah, better with the check :p
<ochosi> :)
<ochosi> that would have to be there at runtime i guess
<ochosi> mr_pouit: i'll be on a train without internet in 20min, but i'll probably design a few things for the display dialog on the way
<mr_pouit> okay, nice
<mr_pouit> I'm still busy rebuilding all panel plugins against xfce4-panel 4.10 ;-)
<ochosi> this was the right spec, right? https://docs.google.com/document/d/1aHvJ-iIw-59bXTYBmIhQqEx0za2h9jpFE_RhZ2VOvJc/edit?authkey=CJO5wPkH&hl=en_GB&pli=1
<ochosi> hehe, i see
<mr_pouit> yeah
<ochosi> i'd really love to have a line-light-like plugin for catfish, but as long as catfish is python that's just wishful thinking i guess..
<ochosi> mr_pouit: i'll probably also take a stab at a multihead-spec for xubuntu, not as comprehensive as ubuntu's, but trying to aim a bit higher than just the display-dialog button-layout
<mr_pouit> okay
<mr_pouit> bbl
<satop> it is possible to use vlc instead of different audio and video players in xubuntu 12.10 without qt by using gnome-media-player it only needs to be fixed :-) it is broken :-(
<bluesabre_laptop> satop: Is there any reason we avoid mplayer?  I've had as much success rate with mplayer as vlc for most media
<satop1> bluesabre also for wma files ? 
<laite> I really think it's best to have one good application for each specific task, and imo playing video and audio are so different from one another that they require separate programs
<bluesabre_laptop> laite: I agree.  I wasn't paying attention to the conversation, I thought this was just for replacing parole
<bluesabre_laptop> satop1: The wma files probably do present a problem, unless you've got w32codecs/w64codecs, but they're in the medibuntu repo (licensing issues, right)?
<bluesabre_laptop> ochosi: catfish -- fixed the thumbnail display and sorting by date (probably).  Added about dialog.
<satop1> ok
<satop> hello i have a problem with the mouse cursor theme in xubuntu 12.04 with xfce 4.10 i installed oxygen-icon-theme from the repositories changed the setting in xfce settings and in update-alternatives --config x-cursor-theme ... so i have the same cursor everywhere ... but when i try to resize window i see another "ugly" cursor theme 
<ochosi> bluesabre_laptop: very cool! i'll check it out right now
<ochosi> mr_pouit: ok, i put together a good part of the spec, or at least how i'd imagine it
<ochosi> mr_pouit: i'll put it somewhere on the xubuntu-wiki for now. although it's relevant to xfce as well, it's more a distro-issue...
<ochosi> bluesabre_laptop: oh btw, it would be useful if the treeview-headers were "fixed" (as in html, so they always stay at the same position, even if you scroll)
<ochosi> bluesabre_laptop: it seems you forgot to add that you fixed the window-icon! very nice :)
<ochosi> mr_pouit: the spec is not finished yet, but there's already some essential parts you might wanna read through / comment on: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Roadmap/Specifications/Quantal/MultipleMonitors
<ochosi> knome: i know you get emails about wiki-pages anyway, but i started with a multi-monitor spec for xubuntu today
<ochosi> knome: this is obviously connected to the display-dialog improvements that are planned with lionel
<ochosi> knome: feel free to read through and give feedback. anyway, it's still WIP
<ochosi> bluesabre_laptop: one interesting feat would be loading thumbnails (like thunar) where possible through tumbler
#xubuntu-devel 2012-05-20
<bluesabre_laptop> ochosi: I was considering using thumbnails in the --thumbnails mode and/or having a tooltip with a small thumbnail and additional data
<micahg> mr_pouit: it builds at least :)
<bluesabre_laptop> ochosi: latest catfish commit now has the 'find' search infobar pop up after doing a locate search.  Check it out.  =D
<knome> hey.
<Unit193> Jello.
<ochosi> hi everyone
<ochosi> currently on a train :)
<ochosi> bluesabre_laptop: nice stuff!
<ochosi> bluesabre_laptop: the infobar is quite huge though, maybe we should think of something more subtle (maybe in the statusbar?)
<pleia2> astraljava: about? just getting some notes together for our QA discussion
<pleia2> knome: oops, we link /TestinInfo on our website, but it was deleted
<pleia2> astraljava: just give me a ping when you're around :) I should be here for at least the next hour or so
<astraljava> pleia2: Hiya, just came home from rollerskating. :)
<pleia2> :D
<astraljava> Sadly I haven't looked into the material so far, but I'm sure we can just start the process initially, and set goals for the following meetings.
<pleia2> yeah, what I have to talk about is mostly just some links and stuff I learned at UDS
<pleia2> we can discuss further after you research at the proper meeting :)
<astraljava> Right, sounds good to me.
<pleia2> ok, so the first one I attended was about how (and if?) there needs to be improved communication between the QA/Testing teams
<pleia2> there are lots of them: http://www.theorangenotebook.com/2012/03/whos-who-on-quality-in-ubuntu.html
<astraljava> Okay, that's handy.
<pleia2> it was pretty much decided that the teams operate themselves so no need for consolidation of volunteers was needed (lubuntu folks are happy to work with lubuntu testers, etc)
<astraljava> Fair enough, but we do have that one QA/testers weekly meeting, already.
<pleia2> yeah, they were wondering if they needed something beyond that to consolidate further
<astraljava> Oh okay.
<pleia2> so they might do another meeting twice a cycle or so to check in with some of the QA/Testing leads to see if they need help or anything
<pleia2> I also asked a bit about the http://testcases.qa.ubuntu.com/ wiki
<pleia2> we should move our testcases wiki pages there soon:
<pleia2> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Testing/TestingInfo/Short
<pleia2> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Testing/TestingInfo/Long
<pleia2> and if we want to write our own Install pages to be linked from the QA tracker, that's cool too (instead of relying upon generic Ubuntu ones)
<astraljava> I guess we should, we will have varying ubiquity tasks at least.
<pleia2> yeah, I don't see it as a huge deal since we seem to manage ;) but it might be nice
<pleia2> the little post install tasks are all ubuntu-specific too, but they can all be done in xubuntu without much trouble at all
<pleia2> just things to think about
<pleia2> the last thing I learned was about Checkbox
<pleia2> http://testcases.qa.ubuntu.com/CheckboxTestCases
<pleia2> automated testing for applications, we could write some :)
<astraljava> Yeah, I was intrigued about this one.
<pleia2> I poked around the wikis some, this seems to be the most comprehensive page about it and links to other resources
<pleia2> shows how to write them, submit them, etc
<astraljava> I've been writing some test automation in python at work before, so I'll have some interesting times ahead to see how it fares with the existing ones.
<pleia2> cool
<pleia2> that's pretty much it
<astraljava> Okay, thanks for sharing! I've been very psyched about getting this progressing during the quantal cycle, but unfortunately real life stepped in the way for the beginning. Hopefully it'll now calm down a bit.
<astraljava> Would you be interested in setting some semi-regular work meetings for this?
<astraljava> I'm not sure how often we'll have other meetings, so it might help in coordinating the thing.
<pleia2> sure
<astraljava> Once every three weeks or so?
<pleia2> sounds good :)
<astraljava> Do we have a Xubuntu calendar somewhere?
<pleia2> yeah, sec
<pleia2> http://www.google.com/calendar/embed?src=383qgn907l43kd425bteqjg850%40group.calendar.google.com
<pleia2> ical: http://www.google.com/calendar/ical/383qgn907l43kd425bteqjg850%40group.calendar.google.com/public/basic.ics
<pleia2> nothing on it yet since we haven't decided next meeting yet ;)
<astraljava> Shall we schedule the next one three weeks from now?
<astraljava> Oh wait, I'm going to a gig that night. You're UTC-7, right?
<pleia2> yeah
<astraljava> Is 17th good for you?
<pleia2> probably
<pleia2> I'll let you know if something comes up :)
<pleia2> 16:00 UTC is probably better than 17:00 though
<astraljava> Isn't that quite early for you?
<astraljava> Oh, no.
<astraljava> Sorry.
<pleia2> 9AM
<astraljava> A little preoccupied, watching the ice hockey finals at the same time. :D
<pleia2> I usually don't have plans on weekends until 11 or later, so 9 or 10AM seems to work ok
<astraljava> So, 17th of June, 1600 UTC. Let's see if I can create the event.
<pleia2> I can add it
<astraljava> Ok, thanks. I don't have authority to do it, seems like.
<pleia2> done \o/
<astraljava> Cool, thanks!
<astraljava> I'll post to the -devel list about this a little closer to the event.
<pleia2> great, thanks
<GridCube> lol only me and madnick answered the doodle
<GridCube> no one else did
<GridCube> thats nice
<GridCube> not even knome 
<astraljava> What doodle?
<GridCube> the one knome sent to the mailing list http://www.doodle.com/6gifbcka8fzvrzz9
<GridCube> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/xubuntu-devel/2012-May/008218.html
<pleia2> I have a flexible schedule and am not traveling any of those days, wherever it lands is fine
<GridCube> mark all the times and hours then
<pleia2> not really worth my time
<Unit193> I'm open all days, except for ones I'm not.
<astraljava> Does my entries show up now?
<astraljava> Do*
<astraljava> Ahh, it wants for each day of the week, not only Sunday the third.
<astraljava> WTF? It won't let me save.
<astraljava> I have to create an account for that?!
<astraljava> Well apparently OpenID should work, but still it won't let me save.
<astraljava> So, tough luck.
<bluesabre_laptop> ochosi: catfish -- filtering works for mimetypes and dates now.  Also, I have enabled live filtering, so when you have results, you can add or remove filters and it will be applied immediately.  :D
<ochosi> bluesabre_laptop: cool :) we should definitely tell kalikiana about this
<bluesabre_laptop> true, I'll post a message to him on xfce-dev
<ochosi> wow, works great
<ochosi> i'm fairly impressed :)
<bluesabre_laptop> good to hear
<ochosi> one more thing i thought about today:
<ochosi> when the zeitgeist-suggestion is a single filename, it's kinda stupid to then search for it
<ochosi> cause usually you'd get a single file as result-set
<bluesabre_laptop> yeah, didn't really know how else to use the suggestions though
<ochosi> and that takes longer than the original suggestion
<ochosi> so i was wondering whether we should try to make users execute the "exo open" command on them
<ochosi> i mean: add a second row to the suggestion-box with an icon
<ochosi> it's either a searchglass or the stock_open icon
<ochosi> if it's a filename with ending, use the stock_open icon and clicking it executes exo-open on the file
<ochosi> in fact in the other case maybe no icon is better than the searchglass
<bluesabre_laptop> That's a good point.  But as long as we don't have a button for search, isn't it better to keep the searchglass?
<ochosi> no, i meant really add those icons to the popup-list
<knome> anybody interested in moderating the xubuntu mailing lists?
<Unit193> I'm not on the users one, but I'm at leaset subscribed to -devel. :P
<knome> + ochosi, we should probably think about the team structure, now that i think about it; does it make sense somebody is in the artwork team if he's not in the xubuntu team?
<knome> Unit193, then you don't seem like a good candidate :P
<Unit193> Riiiight.
<knome> Unit193, i mean, messages to -devel is fine, there aren't so many of those to moderate
<ochosi> knome: haven't given the team structure much thought tbh
<ochosi> knome: but it's a good point. we'll have to talk about this sometime soon (have a presentation tomorrow and am already pretty tired)
<knome> mmh, i'm tired too
<knome> and i should do a few things before going to sleep..
<ochosi> bluesabre_laptop: one more thing i just noticed: i think it's better to drop the horizontal padding on the sides of the treeview, but add it for the statusbar
<ochosi> bluesabre_laptop: the other thing i noticed (but if you're aware of it, forget it) is that the menu-button should be a toggle-button instead of a normal button (i.e. stay pressed down as long as the menu is open)
<ochosi> knome: i updated the terminal-colors-spec and linked to a github repo from where you can test the color-scheme i linked you to recently
<knome> could you actually just send an email so i don't forget?
<knome> x-devel is fine too, and you might get more feedback
<bluesabre_laptop> ochosi: not a fan of the padding?  On the menu button, I knew about it, just being lazy to fix it.  I'll have that on the next commit
<ochosi> bluesabre_laptop: i'm a fan of the padding everywhere but the treeview i think (now that i use it, i know i had it in my first mockup...)
<ochosi> i think what looks oddest is the infobar with padding
<bluesabre_laptop> I agree with that
<bluesabre_laptop> I might toy around with it a bit
<ochosi> sure sure, anyhoo, never take my comments as much more than suggestions
<ochosi> after all, you're doing the heavy lifting
<bluesabre_laptop> doesn't hurt to have an extra opinion though
<ochosi> yup
<ochosi> not sure whether you already had plans for the custom-button in the time-section, but you could hook that to a gtkcalendar
<bluesabre_laptop> I thought there was a calendar widget!  Thanks for the tip.  Didn't see one in glade so I was making a minimal thing
<ochosi> :)
<ochosi> for the documents i guess the easiest thing is let people add file-endings for now
<bluesabre_laptop> I was considering using the mimetypes class and having a combobox with known mimes or let the user enter file extensions
<bluesabre_laptop> ()
<bluesabre_laptop> woops
<ochosi> another point for later is the search-syntax ("$string $string" == match $string & $string instead of match "$string $string")
<ochosi> (or allowing regexp or what do i know)
<bluesabre_laptop> that might be an easy fix
<ochosi> yeah, i just don't wanna distract you with 1000 things at the same time
<ochosi> knome: ok, mail sent
<ochosi> darn, i'm really tired and as i mentioned before i have a presentation tomorrow...
<ochosi> bluesabre_laptop: sorry, gotta hit the sack now, i'll probably not be around tomorrow much (meetings all day) but will be around more again on tuesday the latest
<bluesabre_laptop> k, seeya
<bluesabre_laptop> look forward to some big updates for catfish
<ochosi> i do already :)
<ochosi> (i might just quickly pull and test in a break tomorrow ;) )
<ochosi> night everyone!
<knome> ochosi, thanks ;)
<knome> night!
#xubuntu-devel 2013-05-13
<Laney> hey guys, I'd like to draw your attention to bug #1178373
<ubottu> bug 1178373 in xfce4-session (Ubuntu) "Restart spawns a password box" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1178373
<Laney> it's to get suspend/reboot/shutdown/hibernate working properly in xubuntu/saucy
<Laney> from the session menu, that is
 * pleia2 has returned
<elfy> welcome back pleia2 
<pleia2> thanks :)
<elfy> you well and all that I trust :)
<pleia2> very well, thank you
<elfy> excellent
<ochosi> wb pleia2 !
<pleia2> ochosi: thanks!
<pnarciso> hello
<elfy> hi pnarciso 
<pnarciso> how thinks going?
<elfy> pretty good here thanks - nice to see you 
<pnarciso> :)
<pnarciso> I heard there's a meeting tomorrow
<elfy> did you - I've not seen that 
<elfy> xubuntu one?
<pnarciso> UDS
<pnarciso> and there's xubuntu
<elfy> oic - yea - I think there are some xubuntu specific ones - not sure what time though 
<pnarciso> everything is open, xfce 4.12 release is uncertain
<pnarciso> I've read that ubuntu is ditching firefox to chromium
<elfy> again - heard that before
<pnarciso> personally I think is a better choice than firefox
<elfy> not keen on chromium personally 
<pnarciso> I don't use it either, I'm running chrome 28 dev, and it's so much faster than firefox that it isn't funny :)
<pnarciso> I uses more memory though
<elfy> I find it more than adequate for my use - I'd doubt I'd see enough to make me use it 
<pnarciso> there's the advantage of updated flash
<elfy> maybe so - but I'd still not use it :)
<pnarciso> :)
<elfy> did you see I added to that forum thread 
<pnarciso> yes
<elfy> k 
<elfy> I should add it to the bug I suppose lol
<pnarciso> it' s a bug
<elfy> yea
<pnarciso> xfce latest stable build is not yet uploaded, it could fix the problem
<elfy> yea - read that in the bug 
<knome> pleia2, woooo! congrats again and welcome back!
<pleia2> thanks :)
<knome> pleia2, got some time to get back to the loop later today?
<pleia2> I will try, but my "urgent" backlog is about 14 miles long :)
<knome> yeah... ping me when/of you have time
<pleia2> will do, working throught $paid_job stuff now
<knome> yup, strength
<knome> i'm around if people want to test out things.
<elfy> hi knome 
<elfy> I spoke to balloons re testcase stuff - it's all being done via release teams apparently
<knome> elfy, what testcase stuff?
<elfy> you wanted me to talk to him about being able to edit things at iso.qa
<knome> oh... no, you didn't need to :)
<knome> but it doesn't hurt that you did!
<elfy> which is not what you said the other day :D
<knome> humm
<knome> oh well... :)
<elfy> yep :)
<elfy> what's going to be happening over the next 3 days with meetings? does anyone know yet
<knome> we should have a meeting each day at 20UTC
<elfy> k - I can manage all of those then :)
<knome> we're doing it outside vUDS hours so they should be doable if you can simply stay up long enough...
<elfy> I can manage 9pm :)
<Unit193> knome: I should be able to test too.
<knome> great
<knome> what are we testing? skype?
<knome> i mean... i can simply enable G+ for my account for those three days, then re-disable
<elfy> I'll not be doing any of that - so if it's all skype and video - you'll have to give me logs
<Unit193> The theory was to use 3 people and see if it actually works, I saw a couple things saying not, but might actually.
<Unit193> elfy: Would you be alright installing something, rather than a signup?
<knome> yeah, i also want to make it accessible...
<elfy> I've no camera nor any sort of mike Unit193 
<knome> elfy, are both G+ and skype completely out of question?
<Unit193> elfy: I see.
<knome> i suppose you can chime in without either
<Unit193> You can listen in with Skype.
<elfy> that helps 
<knome> i suppose you can even see the cams with skype
<elfy> Unit193: point me where to go and I can install it 
<knome> elfy, it should be in the partner repositories
<elfy> ok
<knome> elfy, before installing please note that you will also need to register an account
<Unit193> Enable partner and skype-bin, if that's what we're using.
<knome> we should at least test that, whatever we end up using.
<elfy> knome: k - I expected that
<Unit193> knome: Yes, because a couple things indicated premium was needed for more than 2 video users.
<knome> Unit193, yes... but things that shouldn't have worked have worked for me on linux before
<knome> day pass for premium is 4.01â¬
<Unit193> Or, we could use mumble, sip, or G+.
<knome> 8,04â¬ for a month.
<Unit193> elfy: You going to be the third person in a test?
<elfy> trying to sort an account now
<knome> Unit193, i thought we wanted to test videoconferencing, so we would need another one with a webcam
<Noskcaj> elfy, both G+ and skype let you text chat at the same time
<elfy> stupid account page
<Noskcaj> also, headphones and mics can be bought for $1 on ebay
<elfy> Noskcaj: nice 
<elfy> easy to do things if you can 
<Noskcaj> what was the thing about testcases? i'm an admin on the tracker
<Noskcaj> at least the part the QA team does
<elfy> well - fill in the account form and it just refreshes without saying a thing
<Unit193> Little red mark at the top?
<Noskcaj> i'm online for sype if you want me to do something
<elfy> Unit193: nothing like that at all - in fact the webpage looks like something from netscape days ;)
<Unit193> Hrm, I'll actually have to put on pants and get the computer with a webcam, won't I?
<knome> pants?
<knome> aren't obligatory if you are not zooming there
<elfy> nope can't get an account sorted 
<knome> meh
<Unit193> elfy: Mind if I make it and send you pass? :P
<elfy> that's fine
<elfy> hang on 
<elfy> somethign dodgy with f/f 
<knome> ochosi will also join us shortly
 * knome eats a cookie
<knome> Noskcaj, sorry, i missed your msg earlier. join us shortly in a videoconference test.
<elfy> Unit193: done
<Unit193> elfy: I'm adding hobgoblin or elfy?
<elfy> I done it now :)
<Noskcaj> i'm jackson.doak if anyone needs to add me
<knome> Noskcaj, added
<knome> Unit193, are you set?
<elfy> well I got an account and I got skype started 
<knome> awesome
<Unit193> Need a minute.
<knome> account name?
<knome> sure.
<Unit193> elfy: Add Unit193! ;D
<knome> i can start the conference call.
<elfy> elfyesq knome 
<elfy> Unit193: I did 
<Unit193> I saw, added.
<elfy> knome: you pasi there I assume
<lderan> do you have enough to test with?
<knome> <- knomepasi
<knome> sure
<lderan> ok
<ochosi> so now we wait patiently for knome to initiate the conference call or what?
<knome> i'll do that in a sec.
<knome> ringing
<knome> well apparently the video button is striked out
<knome> haha
<knome> success
<lderan> woo
<Unit193> Fail? :D
<Noskcaj> :)
<elfy> kinda :)
<ochosi> well voice seemed okayish tbh
<knome> 2/5 people without mics?
<knome> yeah
<ochosi> no video is kinda fail though
<knome> yeah, that sucks
<knome> i'll also get my headphones
<elfy> if I can get the lappy working tomorrow then I'd have both
<ochosi> (not sure how bandwith would be affected by video)
<knome> the fridge+freezer is humming relatively loudly
<knome> (not ubuntu fridge)
<elfy> lol
<elfy> I got a cat doing that ... 
<ochosi> your mic is quite sensitive, knome :)
<knome> is it?
<knome> it was not me tapping!
<ochosi> i could hear you type loud and clear
<lderan> lol
<knome> was my voice loud too then?
<elfy> nope 
<knome> it might be that i'm just hitting the keys hard...
<knome> actually, i use to do that, so...
<elfy> just louder than Simon's not so sensitive mike :)
<ochosi> hmpfyeah, not sure why it is so insensitive now
<ochosi> must be related to pulseaudio somehow
<knome> well mine is next to the keyboard, so..
<Noskcaj> i should get my mech keyboard for the conference ;)
<elfy> I must have some weirdness in my f/fox profile with regard to skype - it never searches for it - the account page was just text 
<knome> woo, get started...
<ochosi> i just added some crazy muxing now via alsamixer, so we'll see whether that boosts your eardrums in our next test
<ochosi> knome: have you added me on g+ yet or are you still creating your account?
<Unit193> Was I too quiet?
<elfy> did you say something then?
<knome> ochosi, just added.
<ochosi> knome: you're displayed as offline
<knome> i've no idea why
<ochosi> Unit193: were you the third person with a mic? i could hear something at some point
<elfy> how do you add people in g+
<ochosi> Unit193: not as loud and clear as pasi, but seems he's the only one with a decent mic/setup
<ochosi> k, installing plugin for hangout now...
<knome> me too...
<knome> i've created a hangout
<Unit193> ochosi: I'm in live. :P
<Unit193> knome: Link?
<knome> do i post the hangout window urk?
<Noskcaj> link?
<Unit193> I don't know, but some how there is a link to pass. :P
<knome> https://plus.google.com/hangouts/_/8517325154e7868d00626c83c6561c7c1e8b1a89?authuser=0&hl=en ?
<elfy> yep - can see you botyh
<elfy> I've got no mike or cam 
<lderan> i can sign in if need be easily enough
<ochosi> lderan: sure, join in
<knome> mmh, that was better
<ochosi> yeah, good enough
<knome> we really should keep the sessions under an hour
<elfy> yep
<ochosi> agreed
<elfy> I think hangouts timeout at an hour don't they?
<knome> no idea
<ochosi> not sure whether this is really worth an extra spot on the agenda, but we could consider doing this more often for meetings
<knome> that's somewhat sucky, if we are just wrapping things up
<lderan> the video was stable for me tho i did get disconnected once
<ochosi> lderan: yeah same here
<elfy> http://gappstips.com/more/googleplus-tips/view/56/google-hangout-time-out-limit
<Unit193> Not made for netbooks, the computer that had a webcam. :P
<elfy> 90 minutes it seems 
<knome> i suppose i could see if i could get a headset for tomorrow as well
<knome> my head is too big for most, but...
<Unit193> Hah.
<ochosi> haha
<knome> no, seriously
<Unit193> Yeah, but it's funny.
<ochosi> i can use headphones tomorrow
<knome> they don't extend enough to be comfortably on *both* ears...
<lderan> aye i have that issue too ;_;
<Noskcaj> knome, use in-ear headphones and hang a mic off your head. that's what i was doing
<knome> Noskcaj, that's not very comfortable...
<Noskcaj> knome, you'd be suprised
<ochosi> knome: break the microphone-part off the headset and use scotch-tape to fix it to your cheek
<knome> awh
<knome> you are telling me to waste money
<knome> you capitalist pigs!
<lderan> the horror
<ochosi> knome: it's not a waste!
<knome> meh
<ochosi> btw, bluesabre also has g+ with video-capability as far as i can tell
<knome> good
<ochosi> so that should be fine with him too
<ochosi> (at least his avatar has the video-icon in my buddy-list, so i assume it'll be fine)
<knome> i've seen micahg and pleia2 do that before with cams too
<knome> ...that didn't come out right, did it?
<lderan> it did not
<ochosi> harhar
<pleia2> hahaha
<knome> i meant uds sessions naturally.
<ochosi> pleia2: will you join vUDS tomorrow too?
<pleia2> I will try, need to read backlog and figure out when they are ;)
<knome> pleia2, xubuntu sessions at 20UTC tue, wed, thu
<knome> (whatever the UDS schedule says...)
<pleia2> should be fine, I'll make sure to wear pants
<ochosi> awwwh
 * knome is sad!
<pleia2> :P
<knome> we should do a pantless meeting some day
<knome> "let me just pick up a file on the floor behind me...oops." 
<Noskcaj> knome, i'm rather scared of you after your last few comments
<knome> Noskcaj, i'm just kidding
<lderan> would you accept the english definition for pants, it would be less mentally scarring for all
<Noskcaj> knome, good
<knome> Noskcaj, pleia2 can assure i'm a harmless guy
<ochosi> OR CAN SHE?
<ochosi> >:D
<knome> i'll leave that decision to her
<pleia2> knome <3
<knome> pleia2 <3
<knome> bbl
#xubuntu-devel 2013-05-14
<elfy> well I got laptop with mic - whether it works or not is another thing altogether
<pleia2> I can't find the xubuntu sessions on the schedule, what am I doing wrong? :)
<elfy> not reading the mail that says they've been removed :)
<pleia2> x_x
<elfy> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/xubuntu-devel/2013-May/008901.html
<elfy> try that one :) 
<elfy> doing it ourselves 
<pleia2> I see
<elfy> well - I installed what I thought was 13.04 on a laptop but was actually 13.10 ... 
<Unit193> elfy: Haha!  Testing already then!
<elfy> :)
<GridCube> where will the meeting be held?
<knome> G+
<knome> and this channel
<GridCube> will the video be streamed outside the g+?
<GridCube> :)
<knome> we will need to look at that.
<GridCube> P: i dont have any sound anyway so never mind for me side
<lderan> could stream the window to something like twitch.tv
<knome> i would imagine it's not too hard to stream to youtube from G+, they are both google products..
<GridCube> i've seen that done a few times
<knome> yeah
<knome>  You don't need special software to record your conversation. Every Hangout On Air is automatically saved to your YouTube account. 
<lderan> ah thats cool
<knome> we just need to make it "on air"
<knome> overtime.
<knome> be back shortly
<knome> \o/
<knome> finland wins
<lderan> huzzah
<knome> yay
<knome> also won the group stage
<elfy> that'll be good then :)
<knome> yeah, will be facing slovaks again next
<knome> does somebody have a verified youtube account?
<elfy> what does that mean?
<elfy> oh nvm - not even reading properly 
<knome> i suppose you both need to have a youtube account and have verified it with an SMS
<knome> "on air" requires one
<elfy> read youtube as google ... 
<knome> in most cases, you can...
<elfy> I've done it, it seems
<elfy> you can just use the google account to do it
<knome> mhm, i suppose, as long as it is verified
<knome> i get the option, but when i enable it, it tells me i need to verify...
<knome> somebody who has done that should start the hangout then
<elfy> yea - I did - sent it to the phone
<knome> cool
<elfy> not sure it'd be a good idea to do it from here though - interwebs can be dodgy
<knome> mmh, let's see if other people have such setups as well
<knome> so who's here for the first night of xubuntu?
<elfy> I am - with voice if it works if not without :)
 * drc would rather be at The Proms :)
<lderan> i dont know how much i would be able to contribute :P
<knome> lderan, doesn't matter
<elfy> indeed not lderan - the first bit looks like gobbledygook to me :)
<lderan> sounds good to me :P
<Noskcaj> hello
<elfy> hi Noskcaj 
<lderan> Hellos
<knome> pleia2, ochosi 
<pleia2> knome
<knome> <3
<knome> Unit193, 
<knome> pleia2, do you have a verified youtube account?
<knome> pleia2, and can you make the meeting in whole?
<pleia2> I have no idea
<knome> haha. have you send an SMS to google?
<knome> (or are you willing to)
<knome> i'm not sure if i want to 1) enable the youtube side 2) send an SMS to google 
<elfy> google to send you one ... 
<knome> oh.
<knome> then i don't want to send them my phone number
<elfy> :)
<knome> whatever it is they ask me to do, i don't want to do it!
<knome> except if it involves me getting money
<lderan> it takes a min or 2 for it to start streaming by the looks of it
<knome> lderan, that's fine as long as we can record it :)
<knome> so people who want to join the hangout and probably say things, tell us your google names or email addresses
<elfy> elfyesq@gmail.com
<Noskcaj> noskcaj@ubuntu.com or doak.jackson@gmail.com
<lderan> beetyrootey@gmail.com
 * pleia2 @gmail.com
<knome> hihi
<knome> <- pasi@shimmerproject.org
<knome> pleia2, so.. can you make the whole session?
<pleia2> yeah
<knome> wooo
<elfy> cool 
<pleia2> except for when my grocery delivery arrives
<pleia2> :)
<knome> i'm thinking whether we should take meetingology notes
<pleia2> but just like 5 minutes for that
<knome> pleia2, that's fine, you can grab it
<knome> pleia2, and we can look you eating
<knome> :)
<elfy> as long as you have cake 
<knome> the cake is a lie
<elfy> knome: meetingology might be good 
<pleia2> lunch is after session ;)
<knome> pleia2, so... what about that verified yt account?
<knome> pleia2, if you have it, i think it would be best if you created the hangout
<pleia2> I don't even know what that is
<knome> pleia2, you need to send google your phone num
<knome> pleia2, then insert the code you get to some input box
<knome> and ta-dah!
<Unit193> knome
<knome> pleia2, then you can stream the hangout to your youtube account
<knome> Unit193, woo :)
<pleia2> k, let me try
<knome> pleia2 <3
<knome> it's been so.. empty without you here in the xubuntu universe 
<knome> i'm not saying you're fat!
<knome> (you're not!)
<pleia2> ok, it's verified
<pleia2> hahaha :P
<knome> nice
<pleia2> so I start the hangout and invite you all?
<knome> now can you initiate a hangout with the email addresses above? :)
<knome> yup
<Unit193> I'm all hot and sweaty, so don't want to see me dripping right now. :P
<knome> Unit193 <3
<Unit193> Also, I may not be here long, sadly.
<knome> pleia2, invite Unit193 disregarding what he says.
<Noskcaj> i may have issues talking because it's 6am and everyone else is asleep, as i have no webcam and a mic hanging from my ear
<knome> heh
<elfy> Noskcaj: don't wake people up - I know what I'd say and everyone in the hangout would hear it :)
<knome> heh
<knome> elfy, does that concern me as well? (23 here...)
<knome> (or 11pm)
<elfy> yep - I'd shout at you as well :p
<knome> you're not my mum!
<elfy> as my lad knows only too well ... 
<Unit193> elfy: Me too I'm sure, it's 1606 here.
<pleia2> ok, it invited a bunch of people
<knome> pleia2, just paste the link here
<knome> pleia2, that should allow people to join
<pleia2> http://youtu.be/lDZiuOmt-6Y
<knome> because at least i can't see an invite..
<pleia2> oh, other link
<knome> hehe
<knome> yeah..
<pleia2> I don't know how to use this stupid thing
<knome> but that's good as well
<knome> just paste the url from the hangout window
 * knome gets a sheet of paper for the mouse
<pleia2> https://plus.google.com/hangouts/_/c59caae1bd65acf7efbdf323a2c2e0b552989670?authuser=1&hl=en
<pleia2> I'll hit start broadcast when we're all ready
 * drc misses the old TV test patterns :)
<pleia2> no knome voicey
<knome> bling!
<knome> nice doorbell
<pleia2> broadcast should be at that youtube link now
<knome> https://blueprints.launchpad.net/xubuntu-desktop/+spec/client-xubuntu-1305-dev
<knome> elfy, you there?
<pleia2> elfy: milestone releases topic
<elfy> yea - no mic though
<elfy> so you'll have to read me :)
<knome> i am reading
<elfy> that makes sense to me 
<elfy> yea - we need a plan - obviously we have the release dates - whether we want to do them all or not 
<elfy> which I guess we can discuss now
<elfy> is it easier if I chat in the google window ?
<knome> elfy, not really
<elfy> k
<elfy> well I'd be inclined to say do as many as we can - be more likelihood of getting people to do some then
<Unit193> knome: Yeah, pcman seems to be doing it pretty much himself. :P  They are teaming up with razor-qt in areas.
<GridCube> are you using meetingology ?
<pleia2> no
<knome> GridCube, see the youtube link
<Unit193> Than there are the Ubuntu tools.  What used to be jockey, ubuntu one, etc.
<GridCube> yes, i saw it, but i dont have sound
<GridCube> so its pretty pointles
<GridCube> sorry 'bout that
<Unit193> I couldn't get the question.
<Unit193> Mainbuntu is going with Mallard, Lubuntu may well go with it, don't know what K uses.
<GridCube> what do we use? just wikified text?
<Unit193> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/xubuntu-docs/ ?
<Unit193> GridCube: Docbook.
<elfy> I can join in that - reviewing at least 
<Unit193> Yeah, I've noticed a few problems.
<Unit193> I'd like an option it it's config for fade or effects, but seems like it could be handy.
<Unit193> I need to leave, I generally like it, but however.
<elfy> thanks
<knome> ta
<pleia2> cool, youtube video is up immediately
<pleia2> (same link as before)
<elfy> excellent
<knome> pleia2, yeah!
<lderan> ooo cool
<elfy> is there a uds meeting tomorrow that will have a bearing on which alpha/beta we want to test for?
<knome> elfy, we can decide ourself which alphas/betas we opt-in
<knome> i mean the biggest question is when is xfce 4.12 released
<elfy> I thought we were going to do that today lol - but yea - I want to get cracking on trying to get interest in testing if I can
<knome> well, yeah.
<knome> we can decide something today
<elfy> I'd 'imagined' a main mail - this is the plan, followed up with regular - 'this  is coming up' 'we'd really like this app tested' things 
<elfy> cool - that'd be useful 
<knome> i'm leaning towards alpha 2 or 3, but i'm fine with 1 as well.
<elfy> just looking at the schedule 
<knome> skellat noted that he'd like alpha 2
<knome> i mean, that's pretty nice schedule-wise
<elfy> 1 is a month away - so I'd assume there'd be a need - we can always backpedal a touch - and not remind when 1 is near 
<knome> i agree with him that it leaves us good breathing space before the beta to fix bugs and stuff
<knome> the current state of the testing team isn't so good though
<elfy> nope
<knome> i'm just worried that we might not have enough testers to make it worth the while
<knome> ochosi, you still around?
<mutzs> I'd like to help on the testing side
<knome> mutzs, awesome!
<elfy> mutzs: cool
<elfy> knome: I'm going to talk to one of the FC admins - he's quite heavily involved in the forum +1 area - see if we can drum up some interest there
<mutzs> i did some tests for the last Cycle and think it's the right thing for me
<knome> elfy, nice
<elfy> well we will have at least one extra - I'm here after being missing 
<elfy> and every post I make there links to xubuntu/development - so every little helps
<elfy> wb Noskcaj 
<elfy> knome: I'll get a main mail out tomorrow then re testing 
<knome> elfy, great
<elfy> both lists
<elfy> possibly a good starting point with the other admin would be a 'flavour' based sticky - most of the talk in there is ubuntu - I'm sure the others would like some limelight too 
<elfy> I'll try and get hold of the various other QA leads re that - but obviously I'm more interested in getting people to test for us :)
<knome> :)
 * elfy has to have a fair head on over there :p
<elfy> Noskcaj: I'll try and catch up with you on all this tomorrow - but I'm about to crash for the night now 
<lderan> good night elfy
<knome> nighty elfy and thanks :)
<elfy> old man in the corner snoring :p
<elfy> night all 
<Noskcaj> elfy, thanks, and good night
<Noskcaj> what happened in my absence? 
<knome> to all participants, does this look accurate: http://paste.ubuntu.com/5665789/ ?
<lderan> yup
<pleia2> yep
 * skellat states in the words of http://identi.ca/x11r5: "i r back"
<knome> lderan, pleia2: ta :)
<knome> will send an email to the list with that shortly
<knome> skellat, we were able to cover pretty much half or even more of the agenda for all three blueprints
<skellat> :-)
<knome> i think we had beat the dev and milestone pretty much dead before the meeting already
<skellat> Which alpha, if any, are we doing?
<knome> that's still unclear; depends on xfce 4.12 schedule
<knome> but we "decided" to have one
<knome> i mean... as offical as that gets with the project and testing leads :)
<skellat> Cool.  We'll probably need to ping Colin Watson & Adam Conrad prior to that session tomorrow.
<knome> for what? :)
<skellat> Let them know our intentions
<skellat> Though, then again, that's what that session is for come to think of it
<knome> i though the *session* was for that discussion
<knome> and not even that really
<knome> that was just to set some ideas and set a date when we need to "decide" if it's anything like the last UDS
<skellat> Yeah.  It gets weird when you have a UDS session with no blueprint.
<knome> decide in quotes because during R, you could opt-out of something you had said you would opt-in, and the other way around
<knome> even if people said "it's set in stone, you need to know now"
<skellat> Yep
<knome> but two betas it is
<skellat> Which is great
<knome> as long as we have testers with motivation that extends to all milestones, i'm ok with even all alphas.
<skellat> That goes to elfy and noskcaj to come up with
<skellat> And I take it from the paste we've got docs fun coming up too
<knome> yup
<knome> the other thing i discussed with ochosi was to try to get the team test xubuntu too
<skellat> All in all, how did you think the G+ session went?
<knome> a bit slow at the start, but it got better
<knome> at latest when ochosi joined in
<knome> ;)
<skellat> I look forward to reviewing the video in a bit
<skellat> What's the agenda for night two then?
<knome> continue on subjects that were left partly open and start discussing on the ones that we didn't cover yet :)
<skellat> Excellent.
<skellat> At least I should be there for night two
<knome> you can also check the paste.ubuntu.com link to have a quicker recap
<skellat> It'll be nice to put faces to the IRC nicks
<knome> sure :)
<lderan> i didn't do much besides nodding :P
<knome> i concentrated on speaking on top others at times
<skellat> That happened in the community roundtable with Jono when I wore my LoCo leader hat
<knome> who outspoke who?
<skellat> Jono and Jorge Castro took turns...and then I did cut off others at least once or twice
<knome> awwh.
<knome> back soon
<skellat> Later
<knome> i'm back.
<skellat> Okay then.  I had to shoo the cat off the printer
<knome> heh
<knome> i don't need to do that
<knome> i don't have a car.
<knome> nor printer.
<ochosi> cat!=car
<skellat> ochosi FTW!
<skellat> :-)
<knome> haha!
<knome> i don't have a car either.
<skellat> Well, I gotta get figure out dinner.  I may or may not throw together a blog post later tonight.  As to packageset permissions...I'll leave that to tomorrow's round of discussions.
 * skellat wanders off to the kitchen
<knome> bon appetit
<lderan> im up for helping out as much as I can :D
<knome> with the dinner? me too
<knome> pleia2, still around?
<GridCube> knome, as im the one proposing the consideration of development of HUD for xubuntu, and considering that i would very probably not be able to join tomorrow, do you want me to create a small rationalization for
<GridCube> it
<micahg> GridCube: I'd suggest it being HUD for Xfce, not just Xubuntu
<knome> GridCube, yes please
<knome> GridCube, can be on the blueprint or elsewhere, as long as you link to it from the blueprint
#xubuntu-devel 2013-05-15
<pleia2> knome: did you put your flyer drafts somewhere?
<knome> not yet i think
<knome> i'll do that tomorrow when i'm on my desktop
<pleia2> ok, thanks :)
<knome> the magazine still hasn't been published.
<knome> i need to extend two more articles one more time for tomorrow
<knome> or tell the editor to do "something" :)
<pleia2> ah yes, I haven't gotten to those emails yet
<knome> i suppose i'll look at them, they both only need 200 chars
<knome> yeah, i think he dropped you from the last mails... :/
<knome> let me forward
<pleia2> I won't have time tonight anyway
<knome> oh wait, he did
<knome> i think you were lost at some point, maybe my fault
<knome> oh, hmm, no, his
<pleia2> I haven't even read the ones I got ;)
<knome> i'll look at them
<pleia2> thanks
<knome> this hasn't been working as i expected
<knome> i mean i thought we would have gotten the magazine out already.
<knome> i don't even want to think about how long we will need to be in touch with him to finalize everything
<knome> anyway, i sent him the xubuntu logo and some color suggestion and he promised to make the xubuntu section blue
<knome> yay
<knome> brb, need to boot
<knome> yay, i'm in raring
<GridCube> knome will do it on a wiki under my name
<knome> GridCube, sure. thanks :)
<GridCube> :)
<GridCube> :/ i cant log in to the wiki
<knome> you can even use a simple paste
<GridCube> sure
<GridCube> i will do that
<knome> ok, i'm off for today
<knome> see you all later! :)
<GridCube> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/GridCube/HUD_in_Xubuntu_Rationale
<GridCube> pleia2, knome ^
<GridCube> micahg, ^
<GridCube> please add any question you think its relevant and ill try to answer it
<GridCube> i will also consult with tedg who told me to do so, to add/correct any wrong information
<Noskcaj> If we discuss Qt any more tomorrow, lubuntu are definitely going with it. https://launchpad.net/~lubuntu-dev/+archive/lubuntu-daily
<Noskcaj> will have the Qt packages soon
<knome> humm, from that it looks like only pcmanfm is switching
<GridCube> knome, :) did you saw the wiki?
<knome> GridCube, no... did you just send an email to the list or edit the blueprint?
<GridCube> i just pasted it here
<GridCube> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/GridCube/HUD_in_Xubuntu_Rationale
<knome> umm.. okay
<knome> i missed that
<GridCube> want me to mail it anyway?
<GridCube> and btw tedg has already reviewed it and he said it looke alright
<knome> no, i'll just add it to the agenda, that's more important
<GridCube> :) ok
<GridCube> please do tell me if theres any question i might have left behind to try and answer it
<knome> i looked through it quickly and it's a good basis for a discussion
<GridCube> perfect :)
<GridCube> im sorry i cant properly attend :( i will try to be in the irc channel though
<elfy> GridCube: I'll be in IRC - I can watch them and hear them - but that's all 
<lderan> one small spelling mistake (witch -> which)
<elfy> there's others - but I'm not sure we need to worry too much atm 
<GridCube> yeah... i always mix those up
<knome> mr_pouit, you around?
<knome> or somebody else who is following debian stuff?
<ochosi> knome: ask Corsac in #xfce-dev
<ochosi> (if it's debian-xfce related)
<knome> i was just thinking if we have problems with the debian freeze date
<knome> i mean the debian import freeze
<knome> so probably not just xfce stuff
<knome> i believe we're good with that though
<ochosi> not sure what the question is :}
<knome> cjwatson was asking whether people were okay with the debian import freeze date or if we'd like to move it
<knome> we're probably moving it forward
<ochosi> hm
<knome> to week 12 on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SaucySalamander/ReleaseSchedule
<knome> i'll have a short break, let's start around .05ish
<pleia2> k
<elfy> sounds good
<Noskcaj> hello
<elfy> hi Noskcaj 
<lderan> hello
<knome> who's here for the meeting?
<elfy> I am - very very shortly
<elfy> I'm here now 
<pleia2> oops, right I am supposed to set this thing up
<skellat> Ready and waiting
<elfy> pleia2: try and make it non dropping it one :D
<pleia2> I need email addys again
<skellat> smkellat@gmail.com
<elfy> elfyesq@gmail.com
<lderan> beetyrootey@gmail.com
<Noskcaj> doak.jackson@gmail.com
<pleia2> https://plus.google.com/hangouts/_/9e70ee7486b8172cfa5230aa4b4b1619f816cd83?authuser=1&hl=en
<drc> and a link for those of us just window shopping?
<elfy> pleia2 should have a youtube link I think drc 
<knome> pleia2, actually, you don't...
<knome> pleia2, just the google url would've been enough
<pleia2> http://youtu.be/s2pnZuYvyTY
<pleia2> haven't hit broadcast button yet
<knome> i'm fine to go
<skellat> Rock on
<knome> me too (water)
<drc> elfy: I know, it was just a gentle reminder...newlyweds tend to be a bit absent minded :)
<elfy> :)
<elfy> except that the release schedule was completely wrong
<elfy> yea - I'll wait before I type next time 
<knome> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SaucySalamander/ReleaseSchedule
<Noskcaj> when i click the link it makes me sign in with my school email, which has  google talk disabled 
<ochosi> (someone wrote inthe youtube comments that he/she wants to join)
<knome> ochosi, joining?
<ochosi> in a little while, yeah
<knome> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/GridCube/HUD_in_Xubuntu_Rationale
<elfy> https://blueprints.launchpad.net/xubuntu-desktop/+spec/client-xubuntu-1305-software
<elfy> oh that one lol
<knome> yeah it's linked on the blueprint
<ochosi> knome: can you invite me or something? got no clue how to join with g+ on the ipad and i don't wanna type that endless url on a touch-keyboard
<Noskcaj> i can't join, can someone invite me via gmail/G+
<Unit193> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Unity/HUD for those of us that don't really know well.
<lderan> ah that thing
<ochosi> pleia2: or can you send an invite plz?
<Unit193> Yeah...  I'm not fond of it, but if we do decide to do it, I'd want it easy to disable and remove.
<knome> ochosi, Noskcaj: did you get the invites?
<elfy> Unit193: I agree with that 
<ochosi> nah, not yet
<Noskcaj> no
<ochosi> wait
<ochosi> worksforme
<ochosi> (hopefully)
<ochosi> meh, just says "waiting for other participants..." :(
<pleia2> :\
<pleia2> Noskcaj: I sent it to doak.jackson@gmail.com a few minutes ago
<Noskcaj> pleia2, i've stil got nothing
<ochosi> pleia2: haha, now says "this hangout is already over"
<ochosi> (using your email invite)
<pleia2> Noskcaj: sent another
<pleia2> ochosi: you were on it earlier :\ maybe try the link in channel above again?
<ochosi> pleia2: with the laptop it works, i wanted to use the ipad because the mic works better there...
<pleia2> ah
<elfy> hi ochosi 
<pleia2> it's weird seeing ochosi as a person, I think of him as a lego dude
<knome> haha
<elfy> lol
<skellat> Okay, this is actually coming up TOMORROW where Ubuntu is looking at shifting from Firefox to Chromium: http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-1305/meeting/21788/foundations-1305-chromium-default-browser/
<elfy> people will do that regardless of what we ship - if we ship A they'll want B 
<pleia2> indeed
<elfy> I always install clementine for instance - I'm just not loud about it :)
<GridCube> i install audacious P:
<Noskcaj> I've always installed libreoffice, and i think most people do
<knome> Noskcaj, i muted you because there's a lot of bg noise
<Noskcaj> knome, i'd noticed
<pleia2> Noskcaj: where do you get these stats saying most people install it on xubuntu?
<elfy> the way I see it is if people want to not use defaults and want to add things that they use then there's the minimal 
<knome> who has that loud bg noise still?
<Noskcaj> pleia2, a guess
<elfy> not me knome :)
<pleia2> I don't have any, and as many people as I see saying they install libreoffice I see people saying they like that we ship with something that doesn't take 3 minutes to load on their old system ;)
<pleia2> (admittedly, most of these people are like me and don't use docs/spreadsheets on my desktop much, just need a basic app for sometimes)
<mutzs> It would be nice to choose on install which Standard Progs to use
<Noskcaj> we should start HUD developement, but keep it to a PPA till 14.10 at least
<pleia2> Noskcaj: volunteering to work on that?
<Noskcaj> pleia2, i know very little about python, nothing about any other code. i'll tst it as much as possibe though
<pleia2> it may be a different conversation if someone got us a proof of concept together for review to confirm we have the resources to write and maintain it and can see what beneft it brings
<elfy> pleia2: +1 
<skellat> Yep
<skellat> I end up using a -default-settings package across the family's computers regardless of the DE they choose to enforce which packages they have available so that there is a consistent environment.  My parents use Lubuntu while I use Xubuntu.  We at least keep a common core of installed applications.
<elfy> from a user point of view - people will be used to the current shortcuts - is there any reason to change them?
<Unit193> Dang, think it's me.
<elfy> :)
<pleia2> Unit193 was vacuuming
<lderan> :P
<elfy> ha ha ha 
<skellat> Unit193: I know you're not near Cleveland Hopkins International Airport...sounded like a turbo-fan jet overhead
<Unit193> I was getting ready to say some things too. :(
<Unit193> skellat: But we do have military planes overhead all the time.
<elfy> ochosi: I tend to not have a need to use it much at all 
<skellat> Unit193: The big aircraft noise here is rotary-wing aircraft taking patients from Ashtabula County Medical Center to Cleveland Clinic or UHHS Case Medical Center
 * elfy too 
<Unit193> I mean, otherwise I just use alsamixer.
<lderan> i get helicopters randomly flying overhead
<Unit193> skellat: C130 here. :P
<elfy> foghorn here ... 
<skellat> Unit193: That's right, there is an Air Guard base in the Mansfield area isn't there.
<Unit193> skellat: You have pulse in L?
<skellat> Yeah
<Noskcaj> can we go to another topic, because there's a heap of other things on the blueprint
<skellat> Noskcaj: Where would you like to go to topic-wise?
<Noskcaj> skellat, either of the keyoard shortcut topics, they both would be short-ish topics
<elfy> Noskcaj: we went through those 2 :)
<Unit193> We kind of already did..
<Noskcaj> elfy, oops, i wasn't there.
<elfy> :)
<elfy> the consensus was a yea to ctrl+alt+t and nah to the other I think
<Unit193> Noskcaj: Re: "We should add the shortcut, it's very annoying for someone swapping flavour to either learn a new shortcut or use the launcher"  You wouldn't have to, easy to add.  I have.
<elfy> I'll be rewriting the 'help us test' 
<elfy> suits me 
<Unit193> knome: But not late for your internal clock.
<pleia2> elfy: yay!
<elfy> thanks everyone 
<mutzs> ochosi: maybe an upgrade to the UI of pavucontrol would be good but the functionality is just perfect
<knome> Unit193, not at all. but neighbours...
<elfy> :)
<ochosi> mutzs: yeah, i don't wanna touch the functionality
<knome> does somebody want to write a summary of todays session?
 * Unit193 figured someone wanted to be last out.
<elfy> pleia2: yay to which? 
<skellat> I know I could not be an over the highway long haul trucker...I gotta get up and move around...
<pleia2> elfy: rewriting
<Unit193> knome: Also, we can still use pads for note taking.
<knome> pleia2, i had a PM with micah and he also promised to look at the developer docs at xubuntu.org
<elfy> pleia2: oic - I knew I should have waited a day lol :p
<knome> Unit193, i know, but i don't want to harrass people with my typing :P
<pleia2> knome: great
<pleia2> elfy: hehe
 * pleia2 lunch
<knome> "want to look at the dev docs?"  "didn't i do that already?"  "no"  "omg"
<elfy> have a good lunch - I'm off to the kitchen for a late night beer
<Unit193> pleia2: You are, or are going for it?
<knome> pleia2, bon appetit!
<knome> elfy, i *am* in the kitchen!
<elfy> :)
<knome> i hope bluesabre appreciates my lighting more than yesterday!
<Unit193> And hopefully I was trolling less. :D
<knome> not trolling at all, sir
<knome> gosh this chair is uncomfortable
<skellat> knome: Isn't that a prerequisite for doing sessions like this?  I've got an uncomfortable chair too.  Then again, I had to drive a wee bit to get back in time so I spent half an hour in the car beforehand too.
<elfy> I've spent all day driving 
<elfy> which is normal for work lol
<knome> skellat, i have a hard kitchen chair, not even a "work" one..
<knome> let me take a pic..
<knome> skellat, http://temp.knome.fi/other/videoconferencing-at-11pm.jpg :)
<knome> if you look closely, you can see the chair seams aren't keeping up as they should...
<skellat> knome: Not bad.  I'm sitting at the podcast production computer.
<lderan> oh dear :P
<knome> what a wonderful setup to sit in for 2 hours! :P
<knome> and try to look not too suffering..
<knome> skellat, what's wrong with that?
<skellat> knome: Nothing.  It is just that when we record podcasts I'm normally standing the whole time I'm recording and somebody else is in the production engineer's seat.
<knome> skellat, cool, you got to sit this time? :)
<skellat> Yeah.  I prefer to stand.  I normally have a script in-hand when we record The Burning Circle and LISTen: An LISNews.org Program.
<knome> ergonomic
<elfy> knome: that looks REALLY comfy ... ;)
<knome> elfy, definitely!
<knome> does it still look like a cave?
<elfy> nope
<knome> (courtesy of bluesabre after seeing the recording from the first night)
<elfy> my cave has paintings on the wall :p
<elfy> they paint prison walls that colour in this country ... 
<elfy> :p
<knome> awwh
<elfy> :)
<elfy> so - one last real thing before I sit in a comfier chair - as soon as the release schedule has been updated I will redo what I did today 
<knome> good
<knome> be in touch with me if you want me to review
<elfy> subscribing to it
<elfy> knome: ok 
<elfy> hi bluesabre 
<knome> hey sean
<bluesabre_> Hey guys
<knome> bluesabre_, i just posted a pic of my cave: http://temp.knome.fi/other/videoconferencing-at-11pm.jpg
<knome> i hope you appreciate the added lighting today
<elfy> ha ha ha 
<bluesabre_> Nice touch! 
<elfy> oh one more thing - when we starting meetings up? 
<elfy> one more one more thing - wwe need to think about what description to have for settings manager now it does more - lderan is sort of with the bug I reported
<knome> elfy, i'm about the schedule one for next week of the following
<Unit193> Yeah, so I had a wood chair, and already rather sore from yesterday. >_<
<elfy> knome: okey foke
<knome> Unit193, guess where i sat yesterday's session as well? :P
<lderan> ah yeah, my setting manage currently hails hypnotoad
<lderan> manager*
<knome> what was the outcome of the -core packages again?
<elfy> it was a bit ... nothing much got decided I thought 
<Unit193> If it doesn't make devs cranky.
<knome> ah yeah
<bluesabre_> Aren't all devs just happy people? 
<skellat> Outcome of -core was for me to write up a further discussion of the issue and some proposals of what such would look like
<knome> goodie
<elfy> skellat: thanks 
<knome> bluesabre_, mostly, lionel isn't
 * knome hides
<lderan> you can not hide from a developer :P
<elfy> I can 
<elfy> I'm a myth
<bluesabre_> But developers can hide from you 
<knome> unfortunately
<elfy> lol
<Unit193> skellat: http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~lubuntu-desktop/+junk/lubuntu-meta/files  and  http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~lubuntu-dev/ubuntu-seeds/lubuntu.raring/view/head:/core for examples.
<skellat> Unit193: I intend to take at least a couple days working out a nice rationale and proposal.
<knome> skellat, i'll happily assist with that
<Unit193> knome: I'd just assume you can't switch to using a proposed -core for dist-upgrades? :P
<knome> or you can work on it yourself and then bring it to us to be laughed on ;)
<skellat> I also want to wait and see what comes of the "dump Firefox for Chromium" discussion
<knome> Unit193, hmm. i see no reason why not?
<Unit193> knome: Know what I mean?  When you upgrade, it'll pull in xubuntu-desktop, and all the programs you've already purged. :P
<bluesabre_> skellat, I'm also interested to see what comes of that 
<knome> Unit193, i do
<knome> Unit193, but i don't know the internals why that happens
<skellat> As it is structured, you'd have to yank one metapackage first and replace it with the other before you did that.  It wouldn't remove the depends of the old metapackage, though.  Going from xubuntu-desktop to a xubuntu-core will leave in place what xubuntu-desktop already had installed.
<knome> Unit193, i assume if you installed with the -core, you would upgrade with the core
<skellat> knome: Bingo
<Unit193> knome: Not that it matters, but here's my purge list after upgrade http://pastebin.com/xGsziUG4 (couple dupes.)
<knome> Unit193, not sure about bluetooth in that, but otherwise it looks fine
<knome> (at least after a really quick glance)
<Unit193> (My personal one, I'm not proposing that for anything. :P )  Just an example.
<knome> i understand
<knome> it's some kind of starting point anyway
<skellat> That's why I figured I'd do some thinking today and tomorrow and then start writing
<skellat> And possibly set up some VMs
<knome> people who attended, can you check if that's accurate? http://paste.ubuntu.com/5668999/
<Unit193> http://pastebin.com/kqfMZQiG this is what was installed for the upgrade to happen, if it matters to you.  I also saved it from the other computer too.
<knome> did i miss something or did i remember something wrong
<Unit193> knome: First point in HUD, unfinished.
<knome> oops. :)
<knome> http://paste.ubuntu.com/5669003/
<knome> new paste
<skellat> "skellat: Get apt-offline added to the seeds" should be "skellat: Work with micahg to get apt-offline added to the seeds"
<Unit193> (I don't get why core would need a browser, but that's beside the point.)
<elfy> other than specifics of who and what that looks right knome 
<Unit193> Yep.
<knome> is there something wrong with the specifics then? >:)
<elfy> no 
 * knome is considerate and goes with "Work with a package uploader to get apt-offline added to the seeds"
<elfy> though skellat thought so :)
<Unit193> Technically, second point of keyboards?
<elfy> he said that though 
<knome>   Â» ochosi: Work with a package uploader to get an additional shortcut for Terminal (Ctrl+Alt+T) added to the default settings
<knome> happy?
<skellat> Yep
<skellat> Ooh
<elfy> technically Unit193 probably won't be :)
<Unit193> And one random point no one will want to hear, synaptic is GTK3 now, and somewhat maintained.
<Unit193> elfy: When is he ever?
<elfy> thursday last 
<skellat> Should add the point: "ochosi and skellat: Work to gain packageset uploader rights for xubuntu through Developer Membership Board process"
<knome> ah, right
<knome> and bluesabre
<elfy> now you're just adding things from elsewhere 
<elfy> :p
<knome> elfy, no. that was discussed in the meeting
<elfy> unless I'd lost you all at some point 
<ochosi> Unit193: yeah, i know. i've seen mockups of the UI and kinda disagreed, but it should improve the situation still
<elfy> aah ^^
<ochosi> skellat: me? packageset uploader? :)
<Unit193> ochosi: Oh?  They're changing it?
<skellat> ochosi: We'd get a hurdle removed for maintaining artwork & documentation
<bluesabre_> Actually, those maintainers of Synaptic have enlisted my help, if I get a chance to help them 
<ochosi> Unit193: yeah, afaik they're revamping the UI
<bluesabre_> Yeah, complete overhaul 
<elfy> of synaptic?
<ochosi> skellat: yeah sure, i'd prefer to work via PPAs though that _actual_ packagers can then upload :) (at least atm i don't feel confident about that yet, not sure if i have enough time to dive into packaging)
<skellat> ochosi: :-)
<bluesabre_> Yeah, ochosi probably has the links to the mockups 
<ochosi> indeed: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/FreyjaDev/SynapticNext
<bluesabre_> Since he seems to always know where everything is 
<elfy> bluesabre_: did anything ever come of looking at the lubuntu software thing? 
<elfy> as I just got reminded that it actually exists ... 
<ochosi> elfy: yeah, it's on the "might be removed from lubuntu in 13.10" shortlist ;D
<elfy> lol 
<bluesabre_> It's not worth our time if it doesn't have access to the paid apps 
<skellat> ochosi: It would be a long-term goal perhaps.
<ochosi> skellat: ok, as a long term goal i don't mind (long term goals can always be "carried forward" ;))
<bluesabre_> And non paid but free partner apps
<skellat> ochosi: Yep
<skellat> ochosi: At least we can get that started this cycle though
<ochosi> elfy: rather check appcenter (by the elementary team), not sure whether the future of that one is brighter though
<ochosi> skellat: we can give it a try
<Unit193> ochosi: ...So not enough people like USC, and prefer synaptic, so they're going to turn synaptic into USC?
<elfy> ochosi: I'll look
<ochosi> Unit193: i think most people don't like USC for it's incredibly slow interface
<ochosi> Unit193: the history-tab might be a nice addition, and the packages-tab seems to do what synaptic does now
<Unit193> I personally don't like the UI, and lack of control over it.
<lderan> aye i dont go into the USC if i don't have to
<elfy> I really never use usc
<ochosi> USC is really not made for people who know how to use irc
<elfy> ha ha ha 
<ochosi> it's for people who have a hard time controlling their mouse
<skellat> Unit193: This might be what they have in mind for a paradigm: http://tinysong.com/vJDM
<Unit193> lderan: Purged a long time ago, useless to me.
<elfy> usc is made for peopel who think adding jockey to software sources was a good plan
<bluesabre_> Handy to install Steam
<knome> tut tut. :)
<bluesabre_> Ha 
<elfy> :)
<Unit193> Sorry for being very negative.
<elfy> it wasn't very 
<ochosi> ok, just a quick note about pavucontrol etc: unity uses gnome-control-center's audio dialog, so those two are the same
<ochosi> and it looks like this: http://i.stack.imgur.com/OeHrF.png
<knome> that doesn't look very promising
<ochosi> output contains what is currently in pavucontrol > configuration plus some more effects (that we won't use)
<ochosi> the listview still works better for the soundcard selection imo than the combobox we have atm (with lotsa options)
<ochosi> and less tabs is also good
<ochosi> and a tab specifically for apps
<knome> i don't think the soundcard selection should be given too much focus
<knome> i suppose that's my main problem with that layout
<knome> let's say i have one soundcard, you've just wasted a lot of screen estate
<ochosi> in that case we'd have to differentiate between advanced and normal users, which would result in two dialogs, no-one wants that
<ochosi> currently we have a separate tab just for the soundcard, that's also a waste imo
<ochosi> but anyway, i'll try to come up with a better layout and then we can discuss it again
<skellat> From a production perspective though, you do want to have that level of granularity to have different controls for different sound cards.  Even if you're not going full out for Ubuntu Studio, having multiple sound cards allows for possibilities like multi-track recording.  That may be either a prosumer case or, in our case, where we cannot dedicate hardware strictly to functions at the moment but it is a use case for that.
<elfy> I'm happy to do that discussing - I wish I could do more than that - but some of us can read voodoo others can't ;)
<ochosi> skellat: yeah, that's why i wouldn't wanna "dumb it down"
<skellat> And before my cat wanders across the keyboard, I gotta go feed him
 * skellat off to do kitchen duties
<knome> have fun
<ochosi> seeya skellat 
<elfy> I think the main thing we need to do from a user perspective is not lose control they have now 
<elfy> they will complain 
<ochosi> all features will remain there
<elfy> making it easier to use I can understand 
<ochosi> yeah, we have output/playback and input/recording, which is potentially confusing
<elfy> and thinking about it - I'm not so sure that involving studio would be much help - don't they have things like Jack ?
<ochosi> they still use pavucontrol, as we found out in the hangout
<elfy> ochosi: yea - I hate looking at the tab titles in pavucontrol
<elfy> ochosi: do they actually use it - or have it there? there is a difference
<elfy> I guess that's the question 
<ochosi> we'd have to ask them, but i think both
<ochosi> anyway, gotta go sleep now, we can discuss that next week when i hopefully had time to put something together
<elfy> I'm wondering if I can contribute more to this sort of thing by being the one that aasks these people these questions - I am only too aware I'm not able to do any of the dirty work and am happy to help where I can 
<elfy> night ochosi 
<ochosi> elfy: that'd be great if you could get in touch with them
<ochosi> i also seem to be totally unable to find usable screenshots of all tabs of the mixer in gnome3
<ochosi> so if you wanna take any of these things that'd be a great help
<elfy> k - we can talk more about that generally tomorrow 
<elfy> see things like that I can do - saves you all time to do 'stuff' :)
<elfy> but night then :)
<ochosi> k, night! :)
<lderan> night :)
<lderan> :P
<lderan> oops wrong window
<elfy> I'd not worry abou that after what I did in #xubuntu :(
<knome> elfy, hmm? :)
<elfy> yea - was a bit of a fail I'm afraid 
<knome> what was... :)
<elfy> * WhereIsMySpoon_ (~james@teamfrag.net) has joined #xubuntu
<elfy> <elfy> over the moon with the plate I'd assume
<elfy> <ntzrmtthihu777> whut?
<elfy> <elfy> whoops - sorry WhereIsMySpoon - wrong channel :)
<elfy> that was 
<knome> heh
<knome> that's fine
<elfy> good job they came back 
<elfy> oh it wasn't 'bad' I just don't like screwing up like that in a support channel - they might have not come back 
<elfy> hi WildTux 
<lderan> is there anything else i can do to help out?
<elfy> I'd expect so - just don't take any of the simple non-coding things from me lol
<elfy> you can fix settings manager for someone to upload I guess :D 
<lderan> woo
<elfy> we just need to decide whether to change the description to something that relates to what it is now :)
<lderan> indeed we do
#xubuntu-devel 2013-05-16
<pjotr> Hello, I've encountered the following bug: In Xubuntu, resizing an application window of LibreOffice may cause display corruption. The solution is to install libreoffice-gtk, which fixes the problem.
<pjotr> Can someone fix that, so that libreoffice-gtk will be pulled automatically upon installing (components of) LibreOffice in Xubuntu?
<knome> mrpouit, micahg: ^
<len-1304> ochosi, elfy, yes UbuntuStudio uses pavucontrol. We also have a wish list in for changes to the PA people :)
<len-1304> pavucontrol is Studio's "desktop audio control" and aslo sometimes used with Jack. Some broadcast type applications require both.
<elfy> thanks len-1304 - there was a conversation in -offtopic earlier with knome and zequence amongst others 
<len-1304> For what it does pavucontrol is fine... not something we are likely to changing.
<len-1304> Ah good. I am at the "late" end of the world.
<elfy> :) 
<len-1304> On my way out to work, bye now.
<elfy> have fun if you can 
<Germar> Hi,
<Germar> Where can I report a bug with dbus that regards only xubuntu but not ubuntu?
<Germar> It is about a timeout on dbus during import keyring in a python program running with sudo
<Germar> I'm not sure if this is caused by the keyring or by dbus config.
<Germar> All packages are the same version on ubuntu and xubuntu. I even tried to copy over the dbus config and root's home wihtout luck
<Germar> to reproduce you can run 'sudo python'
<Germar> import dbus
<Germar> bus = dbus.SessionBus()
<Germar> bus.get_object('org.freedesktop.secrets', '/org/freedesktop/secrets')
<Germar> afk for ~30min
<skellat> Here's where Lubuntu Core gets selected in lieu of Lubuntu when installing from mini.iso: http://www.zimagez.com/zimage/screenshot-05162013-035346pm.php
<knome> mh
<ochosi> skellat: looks good to me
<knome> i would be more interested how the desktop installer separates those
<ochosi> skellat: btw, if you find out the name of e.g. that HP-icon in your systray i can try to add a monochrome version for it to our icon-theme
<knome> hello people
<knome> who's here for the last of the three nights for xubuntu? raise your hand
<knome> o/
<skellat> o/
<knome> #startmeeting Three nights of Xubuntu: Night 3
<meetingology> Meeting started Thu May 16 20:04:00 2013 UTC.  The chair is knome. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
<knome> #chair skellat 
<meetingology> Current chairs: knome skellat
<lderan> o/
<pleia2> o/
<elfy> o/
<knome> We won't be having a Hangout today, and we've ran through all the items on the session blueprints, so the word and agenda are free: is there something else you'd like to discuss?
<knome> #chair pleia2 elfy 
<meetingology> Current chairs: elfy knome pleia2 skellat
<knome> #chair lderan 
<meetingology> Current chairs: elfy knome lderan pleia2 skellat
<ochosi> o/
<knome> #chair ochosi 
<meetingology> Current chairs: elfy knome lderan ochosi pleia2 skellat
<knome> #topic Blog article about "Three Nights of Xubuntu"
<knome> #info knome, skellat and pleia2 have put up an article about the two Xubuntu sessions to be posted on xubuntu.org
<skellat> A last look by others prior to posting would be helpful, I presume.
<knome> yes
<knome> i will be pushing it to xubuntu.org today
<knome> #info knome will move it to xubuntu.org today for reviewing
<skellat> Do we have a link that can be shared to the current draft?
<knome> not at the moment
<knome> it's invite only, but i'll move it after the meeting, so it'll be accessible soon
<skellat> OK
<skellat> pleia2: Any thoughts as to the article?
<pleia2> it's good
<knome> i was wondering if we're pointing out too much that we're "in line" with other flavors
<knome> it's brought up twice, and it got my attention
<skellat> I'm iffy on that.  Yes, I wrote it.  I just felt at the time some strange need to show small-u unity.
<knome> anyway, we can think about that when i've moved it to xubuntu.org
<knome> #topic Xubuntu team members
<knome> i propose to add skellat to xubuntu-team!
<ochosi> +1
<knome> imo other prospective contributors for memberships are lderan, jack fromm (docs guy) if they keep on contributing as they have done so far
<lderan> i do plan on doing so
<knome> that's great :)
<elfy> :)
<ochosi> sounds good to me
<knome> otoh,  people who need to step up to keep their memberships are: GridCube, maddernick, Unit193
<knome> Unit193 has been showing raised motivation though :)
<Unit193> I have? :P
<ochosi> (sounds a bit like the "tip-of-the-hat â wag-of-my-finger segment of stephen colbert, for those that know it)
<knome> (just speak up more often and don't think it's unnecessary!)
<ochosi> +1
<knome> i'm thinking this also because...
<elfy> I'd +1 that as well - but then I'd be saying too much :)
<Unit193> Yeah, that part...
<knome> #topic Strategy Document reviewing
<knome> i discussed it with various members in the team, and we all thought it would be more appropriate to have xubuntu-team voting the new XPL, not xubuntu-users
<knome> #action [knome] Rewrite the XPL voting part in the SD for the team to review and vote on: TODO
<meetingology> ACTION: [knome] Rewrite the XPL voting part in the SD for the team to review and vote on: TODO
<knome> (sorry for being lazy and using the work item syntax directly....)
<knome> #chair Unit193 
<meetingology> Current chairs: Unit193 elfy knome lderan ochosi pleia2 skellat
<knome> (if you want to start a new topic, just say "#topic New topic" so it's added to the minutes)
<knome> (those who aren't in the chairs list, poke one of the chairs first to add you)
<skellat> #topic UDS Day 3 Community Roundtable's Discussion Assessing vUDS Structure
<skellat> #info skellat was present in capacity as a LoCo leader. (SEE ALSO: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=dF-5Ba4ApgA)
<skellat> #info Discussion ensued among those present as to the hours and nature of the meetings.
<skellat> #info Laura Czajkowski raised the issue of seemingly fewer women attending.
<skellat> #info Randall Ross asked that weekend hours be considered to better accommodate potential participants.
<skellat> #info skellat noted that Xubuntu was holding a parallel set of meeting hours to accommodate divergent available hours as well as to include members across Asia and the Pacific.
<knome> +1
<skellat> #info At this time Jono's group is reviewing how the second virtual UDS has run and we may or may not see further changes by the next anticipated sessions in August 2013.  Time zone shifting was discussed as a possibility to better accommodate Asia/Pacific and Eastern Europe.
<skellat> #idea It is recommended that we consider our actions during the May 2013 UDS timeframe and assess how we might utilize our current experience in holding further computer-mediated team sessions during the Saucy Salamander cycle.
<knome> was there any discussion about a possible real-life uds?
<skellat> Nope
<skellat> I did raise the point that in-person discussion works better
<skellat> That point really didn't go anywhere
<knome> it's weird that they give out that recommendation now - as if they had already decided that they'll keep with the virtual meetings
<skellat> Oh, that's my recommendation
<knome> oh, ok :)
<ochosi> i'm also wondering whether we should do hangouts more often as a team...
<knome> then nvm me.
<knome> ochosi, +1 now and then
<skellat> knome: It is okay
<Noskcaj> ochosi, +1
<knome> but preparation should be better then
<ochosi> yup
<elfy> ochosi: might be good - I'd maybe even get a mic ... 
 * ochosi admits he was poorly prepared...
<knome> or we should have a clear agenda with people marked running each item
<skellat> Randall Ross was a big proponent of trying to get people together in groups to participate to leverage further the upper limit on available Google Hangout sessions
<Unit193> ochosi: So was I.
<ochosi> knome: +1 on clear agenda with assignees
<knome> life got in the way for me too, but of course that's not a good reason to not be prepared
<ochosi> that could help with preparation
<elfy> +1 to that from me as well 
<knome> it was slightly scary too when people were so quiet on night 1 that lyz needed to tell us to say something
<ochosi> assignees could 1) quickly sum up the topic (for those who didn't prepare ;)) and then 2) propose their $whatever and then 3) we could commonly discuss
<elfy> I did try to speak up :p
<elfy> ochosi: +1
<skellat> Need a Vuvuzela for moments when silence reigns
<knome> and tbh... 20UTC is not ideal for me at all
<ochosi> skellat: +100
<knome> haha
<elfy> knome: too late?
<ochosi> skellat: haven't heard those evil things in such a long time :]
<knome> elfy, yeah, it's 11pm here and i'm worried about speaking too loud
<knome> also, if wife has morning shifts the next day.. not good either.
<Unit193> knome: Do note that text meetings are far better to catch up on when you missed them.
<elfy> I understand - I'd be the same - little one is in bed directly above me 
<skellat> Partly timing comes down to compromises.
<knome> Unit193, definitely, especially if we are taking notes as poorly as we did this time
<elfy> to some extent skellat 
<ochosi> Unit193: yeah, agreed to that
<knome> definitely, but otoh, we should make sure the people that are essential to any given item should be able to join the session
<Unit193> (I'm thinking this because much earlier wouldn't work nearly as well.)
<elfy> that's logical 
<skellat> knome: Jono discussed that a bit and noted how he's up at 1 AM and 6 AM in California for Ubuntu-related meetings
<knome> i'm saying that if all artwork people are based in europe, we probably should have an artwork-related meeting at a suitable time for the european participants
<elfy> for me - and probably only me this time is perfect
<Unit193> elfy: Nope, great here.
<lderan> its not too bad for me as well
<knome> skellat, being up at 1am or 4am isn't a problem for me really.
<elfy> knome: +1 - but it needs proper notes for those elsewhere to be able to read
<knome> skellat, it's external things that make the times bad for me
<skellat> knome: Understood
<knome> elfy, we did do proper notes... after the meeting
<elfy> yea - I'm just saying :)
<knome> the point is that it might be hard to follow the meetings if taking notes at meeting time was bad
<Noskcaj> for me, i'm awake 2000UTC-1100UTC
<elfy> knome: I agree - maybe if we're having a hangout type - someone who's ont so involved in discussion can do note taking
<elfy> s/ont/not
<ochosi> yeah, or a person without a microphone ;)
<lderan> I'm available 1900~2300 UTC
<knome> elfy, otoh it's hard to do that if you're not too involved either
<elfy> all you need do is be listening :)
<knome> sure
<elfy> ochosi: I was that man ... 
 * ochosi is definitely totally not looking at elfy when he says that
<knome> i'm bad at that... ;)
<ochosi> ok, knome doesn't do note-taking, cause he sucks
<Unit193> elfy: I was almost. :P
<ochosi> ;)
<knome> i mean, i'm bad at listening to something and being really focused if i can't participate
<elfy> I can do that knome 
<knome> i'm good at remembering most things from a 1 hour meeting though if i have any agenda
<knome> i barely take any notes from meetings with clients either
<elfy> lol
<ochosi> yeah, i think having a clear agenda and assignees should also ease note-taking though
<knome> definitely
<elfy> ochosi: +1
<knome> the assignees could even handle the note taking for their own items
<lderan> ochosi, +1
<elfy> but - I'd not want to see hangouts take over from IRC meetings though
<knome> that way nobody would need to just sit in the corner and shut down.
<ochosi> oh, and may i add: this is the most verbose irc-meeting in quite a while, and i dare say it's not unrelated to the hangouts...
<elfy> maybe once every 6 weeks or so 
<Noskcaj> on another topic (i'm not a chair yet), Should we try having LSC in for this release?
<knome> ochosi, probably, and also because we had our last irc meeting in january or sth.
<elfy> gives me time to not eat for a day or so and but a mic ... so ochosi stops bullying me :D
<knome> Noskcaj, let's get to that once we've finished with this item
<ochosi> Noskcaj: in the lubuntu meetings it is currently discussed to drop it
<skellat> Any further discussion as to UDS status?
<knome> if we have a meeting every two weeks, a hangout every 6 weeks sounds about right
<ochosi> elfy: before you do that PM me your address and i'll mail you one ;)
<elfy> lol
<skellat> #topic Inclusion of Lubuntu Software Center
<elfy> hang on skellat 
<knome> skellat, heh, okay :)
<knome> one more thing
<elfy> knome: that sounds good to me 
<skellat> #undo
<meetingology> Removing item from minutes: <MeetBot.items.Topic object at 0x324d110>
<knome> #action [knome] Set up meeting schedule (IRC and Hangout meetings with vUDS in mind) and send to ML: TODO
<meetingology> ACTION: [knome] Set up meeting schedule (IRC and Hangout meetings with vUDS in mind) and send to ML: TODO
<knome> i'm fine with that item now.
<ochosi> question wrt hangouts
<ochosi> (sorry)
<elfy> I'd say we need to get the first one pretty soon
<knome> ochosi, yeah?
<ochosi> what is our policy on keeping our meetings available on youtube
<ochosi> some of us might have privacy concerns wrt keeping the meetings online/available "forever"
<knome> i would say drop them soonish.
<Unit193> ^
<knome> we have the notes from those in the ML
<elfy> I'd say not - we can put notes up in wiki 
<ochosi> yeah, that's what i was hoping
<ochosi> but i'm also saying that wrt future hangouts
<knome> yes
<ochosi> wondering whether we should even stream them to youtube...
<knome> probably not
<ochosi> (or if we do, drop them immediately afterwards)
<knome> unless we have participants that can't fo G+
<knome> yes, definitely
<elfy> I don't see a need - if we're in IRC as well - people can ask there 
<knome> do we want to set a deadline when we drop the vUDS videos?
<skellat> #idea Consider retention policy for hangouts on YouTube compared to the retention policy for IRC logs?
<Unit193> I'd say stream them, and keep them for a week.
<knome> i'm proposing dropping vUDS videos week after the meeting, other videos as soon as we've done.
<knome> err, we're
<elfy> till the next meeting? 
<lderan> sounds good
<skellat> Keep video at least until next meeting
<knome> elfy, i'm most probably proposing and meeting every two weeks
<knome> s/and/a/
<elfy> so if we had hangout today, IRC in fortnight - drop the youtube on the day we next meet? 
<ochosi> until next meeting would mean keeping the yt-video for 6 weeks?
<skellat> elfy: +1
<elfy> I guessed a fortnigjt :)
<knome> i would simply say...
<ochosi> (with hangouts every 6 weeks)
<elfy> ochosi: no the next meeting - not the next hangout 
<knome> one week. period.
<elfy> I'll sit on the fence on that then :)
<ochosi> yeah, i'm kinda on knome's side here, if we take notes anyway, what are the videos good for?
<knome> but that's of course open for discussion
<pleia2> whynot keep it forever?
<knome> i would even say only the vUDS-timed videos need to be up after the sessions
<ochosi> what about re-evaluating that after the next hangouts?
<pleia2> keeping it forever is easy (default), removing it takes effort and I don't know the value
<knome> pleia2, privacy concerns, eg. some ugly monkeys don't want their face showing up forever in youtube
<pleia2> boo
<knome> (^ i'm referring to myself)
 * ochosi feels like an ugly monkey now
<elfy> why do you think I've no web cam ... :p
<pleia2> ochosi: you're lovely :) and not a lego
<lderan> take them off youtube and host them somewhere else maybe?
<knome> we should've had a hangout for this so i could've seen simon's face when i said that!
<ochosi> elfy: ok, in that case i'll also mail you a camera
<elfy> ha ha ha 
<knome> i don't think the problem is youtube
<ochosi> :)
<knome> it's rather just keeping the videos up
<ochosi> yeah
<Unit193> knome: Ugly monkey?  That feels directed...
<elfy> I don't really see a need if the notes are good enough to keep the video up 
<knome> i don't want a policy that says "if you don't want to show up in a video, don't join the hangout" either.
<skellat> Unit193: I thought it was a reference to the new Google Plus layout
<pleia2> I think we benefit from the internet having too much stuff on it ;) who will ever actually go dig these up ever again who isn't us?
<knome> pleia2, employers?
<ochosi> pleia2: imagine you say something stupid or look bored and future employers confront you at the job interview "you always looked so bored in the meetings!" imagine that!
<knome> haha!
<elfy> I just thought that keeping till the next meeting was a good compromise
<knome> yes!
<pleia2> if an employer is going to go scan through hours of UDS videos to find something to pick apart, I don't really want to work for them
<pleia2> that's strange and creepy
<elfy> lol
<pleia2> (and unlikely)
<knome> i can't see the added value of meeting videos being up after the meeting as long as we have notes
<knome> notes are easier and faster to go through
<ochosi> pleia2: yeah, but the vUDS videos are different from regular meetings imo
<lderan> indeed they are
<skellat> pleia2: It may be strange & creepy...but it is the new normal for HR.  That and all those bloody eHarmony-style personality tests that are being required these days.
<pleia2> saying stupid things on mailing lists is much more likely and searchable
<elfy> how about we see how good the notes are - if they are as good as IRC logs - that's enough
<lderan> those are a pain skellat 
<pleia2> ochosi: ours aren't vUDS videos
<knome> and hangouts are going to be like "... *silence* .... (lyz:) say something" anyway
<pleia2> ochosi: ours are on my private youtube, not linked to other vUDS things
<pleia2> since ours aren't official sessions
<knome> pleia2, still.
<ochosi> pleia2: hmright.
<pleia2> well, official for us, not official for UDS
<Unit193> Lyz: say something!  Unit193: Something.
<pleia2> :)
<knome> yeah, like that
<elfy> ha ha ha 
<ochosi> we can always have a vote on that...
<knome> do you think that looks good on any of us?
<knome> i veto.
<pleia2> heh
<elfy> I was fine knome :p
<ochosi> knome: you _veto_ against voting? :p
<skellat> Compared to how that job interview went on Night 1, the hangout sounds like it would have been a better use of time
<lderan> oh dear
<knome> skellat, that can be said of the part before ochosi joined, unfortunately
<knome> it was about the developer involvement
<knome> and no developers were around
<elfy> ochosi: I think you're right - we should just vote and be done with it :)
<knome> nobody had anything to say, it had been beaten up in the blueprints already
<ochosi> elfy: yeah, this is starting to take up too much time...
<pleia2> I want to link the youtube videos to my blog post about UDS :( must keep forever!
<elfy> ochosi: it's because we're trying to catch up on what didn't get said over the last 2 days :)
 * Noskcaj doesn't see why you need them taken down.
<knome> Noskcaj, you didn't have a camera.
<ochosi> pleia2: but wouldn't an edited summary or something be nicer? i mean do you really want ppl to think that our meetings are lame and quiet (especially those that hit "close" after two minutes)?
<pleia2> ochosi: ours really aren't that bad
<Noskcaj> knome, i wasn't allowed a camera, my brother owns the only one in the house and said no
<pleia2> plenty of uds sessions are like ours
<skellat> ochosi: Better than most school board & city council meetings around here
<knome> #vote YouTube videos of Hangouts: Keep forever (+1) or not (-1)   (only those who had a camera can vote)
<meetingology> Please vote on: YouTube videos of Hangouts: Keep forever (+1) or not (-1)   (only those who had a camera can vote)
<meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (private votes don't work yet, but when they do it will be by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0 to me)
<ochosi> pleia2: hm, have never watched any uds sessions
<knome> -1
<meetingology> -1 received from knome
<Unit193> -1
<meetingology> -1 received from Unit193
<skellat> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from skellat
<ochosi> -1
<meetingology> -1 received from ochosi
<lderan> -1
<meetingology> -1 received from lderan
<pleia2> keeping them up increases project transparency, I don't like the idea of having secret meetings of hangouts and fully public meetings of irc
<pleia2> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from pleia2
<knome> pleia2, we will still have the meeting notes. and we can have the videos on your HDD to be sent by email if somebody wants to "check" things out.
<pleia2> (I probably won't feel comfortable participating in hangouts if they're private)
<Noskcaj> -1
<meetingology> -1 received from Noskcaj
<Noskcaj> oops, +1
<Noskcaj> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from Noskcaj
<Unit193> pleia2: I understand that, but I'm the reverse.  (In that case, you being present is more important.)
<knome> is that everybody?
<ochosi> pleia2: i wouldn't mind voting on this again after we have a bit more "experience" with hangouts, would that be ok for you?
<elfy> I didn't have a camera :)
<elfy> but as I will 
<pleia2> Unit193: no one is more important (except knome prolly)
<elfy> -1
<meetingology> -1 received from elfy
<knome> #endvote
<meetingology> Voting ended on: YouTube videos of Hangouts: Keep forever (+1) or not (-1)   (only those who had a camera can vote)
<meetingology> Votes for:3 Votes against:5 Abstentions:0
<meetingology> Motion denied
<knome> so, next vote
<skellat> #vote Shall the Nights of Xubuntu videos be allowed to archived by a member of the Community Council outside of remaining on YouTube?
<meetingology> Please vote on: Shall the Nights of Xubuntu videos be allowed to archived by a member of the Community Council outside of remaining on YouTube?
<meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (private votes don't work yet, but when they do it will be by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0 to me)
<knome> oh, okay
<knome> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from knome
<elfy> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from elfy
<pleia2> ochosi: that's fine, but I really don't feel comfortable participating unless they are kept public
<skellat> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from skellat
<ochosi> wait, what would that be good for?
<knome> skellat, just for clarification, does that include pleia2 ?
<lderan> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from lderan
<knome> ochosi, if somebody wants to "check something out"
<skellat> knome: Yep.
<knome> ok
<knome> "then -1"
<knome> (just kidding)
<Unit193> +0
<meetingology> +0 received from Unit193
<ochosi> +0
<meetingology> +0 received from ochosi
<skellat> I would much rather have them be still accessible even if not accessible via YouTube
<elfy> if someone complains we can always revisit it 
<knome> #endvote
<meetingology> Voting ended on: Shall the Nights of Xubuntu videos be allowed to archived by a member of the Community Council outside of remaining on YouTube?
<meetingology> Votes for:4 Votes against:0 Abstentions:2
<meetingology> Motion carried
<knome> i have anohter.
<knome> *another
<knome> #vote Keep videos of Hangouts up for a limited time (+1) or delete directly after the session has ended (-1)? Everbody can vote.
<meetingology> Please vote on: Keep videos of Hangouts up for a limited time (+1) or delete directly after the session has ended (-1)? Everbody can vote.
<meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (private votes don't work yet, but when they do it will be by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0 to me)
<ochosi> pleia2: at least atm i'm not sure i'd feel comfortable with having all those meeting videos in a publicly accessible place, that'd at least lead to me having my webcam switched off (i don't have that lego-avatar for nothing, after all)
<ochosi> -1
<meetingology> -1 received from ochosi
<elfy> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from elfy
<lderan> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from lderan
<knome> that was a stupid vote.
<skellat> +1 -- Gotta have time in case somebody is late to the meeting to catch up
<meetingology> +1 -- Gotta have time in case somebody is late to the meeting to catch up received from skellat
<knome> -1 generally; +1 for vUDS-related
<meetingology> -1 generally; +1 for vUDS-related received from knome
<Unit193> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from Unit193
<elfy> now I'm justconfused ... 
<knome> elfy, lol!
<elfy> -1 
<meetingology> -1 received from elfy
<ochosi> would be good to announce votes before just starting them ;)
<elfy> that's me at 0 then 
<ochosi> announce and explain
<knome> elfy, then say +0
<elfy> that should really be 2 seperate thinsg 
<elfy> +0
<meetingology> +0 received from elfy
<knome> elfy, i know. i just realized.
<Unit193> In case someone missed the meeting, but wants to review.
<elfy> start again then :)
<knome> Unit193, notes.
<Unit193> Yes, but not always good enough.
<knome> then make the notes better
<knome> #endvote
<meetingology> Voting ended on: Keep videos of Hangouts up for a limited time (+1) or delete directly after the session has ended (-1)? Everbody can vote.
<meetingology> Votes for:3 Votes against:2 Abstentions:1
<meetingology> Motion carried
<knome> i mean, meh
<knome> let's rewind
<knome> do we want to have official hangouts at all if it's this hard?
<knome> want to vote on that, or discuss?
<Unit193> I don't think it exactly needed a vote, everyone seemed to be good to do them.
<ochosi> hmpf, i was actually generally in favor of hangouts, but i guess i opened a can of worms with mentioning privacy concerns...
<ochosi> brb
<knome> Unit193, well as ochosi said, didn't need back then but now...
<elfy> personally I see the value in a face to face thing - but I can understand if people have privacy concerns 
<skellat> #action skellat, as a professionally-trained librarian, to assist pleia2 with archiving Nights of Xubuntu in such manner as pleia2 deems fit after the in-meeting vote
<meetingology> ACTION: skellat, as a professionally-trained librarian, to assist pleia2 with archiving Nights of Xubuntu in such manner as pleia2 deems fit after the in-meeting vote
<knome> so...
<pleia2> I don't really want to be a part of this archiving process
<skellat> #undo
<meetingology> Removing item from minutes: <MeetBot.items.Action object at 0x35e9110>
<pleia2> so you'll have to use someone else's youtube account
<elfy> perhaps if the 2 weekly ones were not kept and the vUDS ones were - people can just do audio if they don't like the idea of being 'seen' 
<knome> me neither, but i wanted to offer a compromise for deleting forever
<pleia2> (it's bad enough that we're using a proprietary tool for all of this, I don't want to be a part of a process that further closes access to these resources)
<knome> i think i would be fine with audio-only recording in public foreverish
<lderan> as would i
<skellat> Mostly for archiving it would involve grabbing said videos, storing them away from YouTube, and making them available as others require.
 * Noskcaj is back from mustering sheep
<elfy> I see no need to be getting into archiving - the notes should be enough
<knome> skellat, i think that's just silly for what xubuntu is
<skellat> I don't like the idea either but it preserve access to it, however minimal, even if I have to burn a DVD and mail it to somebody
<elfy> overkill imo
<knome> pleia2, would you vote against hangouts at all then, or would you be fine with some kind of socializing hangouts that aren't public?
<pleia2> knome: I'm not going to participate in them unless they're public
<knome> to help with communication (which was the point of hangouts anyway), but not to specifically discuss xubuntu-related issues
<pleia2> I'm not trying to be difficult here, it just feels very wrong as an open source project, I don't like it and don't feel it's fair
<knome> i understand
<elfy> then we should do as we did before 
<elfy> meet here and use meetingology 
<knome> i like the point that ochosi had about making communication more natural
<Unit193> Sadly, seems so.
<knome> (not just during the hangouts, but also after)
<elfy> nothing to stop people doing so outside of meeting 
<knome> but i would be uncomfortable with "private" social hangouts as well if some of the people were uncomfortable joining them
<pleia2> there are subtleties and assumptions when having a natural video discussion that don't transfer well into notes, and you won't get full background as to why things are decided by raw notes that don't have details
<elfy> pleia2: that might well be the case - but then that invalidates any meeting that happened before :)
<knome> pleia2, i understand if you still don't want to, but would the hangouts be fine if nothing was "decided" on them?
<knome> pleia2, if it was clearly social
<elfy> I don't see why audio only is an issue 
<Unit193> A #xubuntu-offtopic hangout rather than #xubuntu-devel.
<pleia2> knome: so we already have private conversations sometimes about things
<pleia2> even project things
<pleia2> I think it's fine for people to do a hangout privately to collect thoughts and discuss things
<knome> elfy, i suppose one can argue that part of the communication is lost in the process
<pleia2> just when it comes to presenting things to the community for a decision, community discussion, etc - we need all rationale and explaining out there in full, forever
<elfy> knome: less so than IRC 
<knome> pleia2, i see, but that doesn't build up the community as a whole
<knome> elfy, sure, but in the case of IRC meetings everybody "loses" the subleties.
<pleia2> what doesn't?
<knome> pleia2, having private one-on-one hangouts
<pleia2> no, it would be disappointing to me to see things move from here to private hangouts
<pleia2> I don't want to *encourage* them ;)
<knome> pleia2, that too.
<skellat> I do find it odd that we want to quickly nuke video yet the proceedings of this IRC channel are preserved forever over at irclogs.ubuntu.com
<pleia2> but if people want to knock through some debugging or testing of stuff together on a hangout, whatever
<pleia2> skellat: right, that's my point
<pleia2> right now we have a great system of transparency and keep-logs-forever
<pleia2> moving some meetings to hangouts that get deleted is :(
<Unit193> skellat: I don't like that either, and that's part of the reason I avoid this channel.  I randomly avoid the support channels as well.
<elfy> I don't see what's so hard to understand about people not wanting their face out there forever 
<knome> then we should simply keep the meetings in IRC
<knome> i'm personally fine if we decided to keep the UDS sessions up forever, but i can empathize with others on their privacy issuses
<elfy> is my view as well 
<pleia2> elfy: I understand, but you have to balance privacy issues with being a part of a global project that values transparency
<knome> pleia2, we went wrong with that by not discussing these kinds of things before the first hangouts
<pleia2> knome: indeed
<pleia2> I've been doing Ubuntu on-air stuff for over a year, didn't even think that anyone would have a problem with it :(
<pleia2> (or at least they'd do what elfy did and not do voice+video if they were uncomfortable with it)
<elfy> indeed - my point is that if it's good enough to be audio only for Ubuntu then it should be good enough for us 
<knome> pleia2, what's your stance on audio-only preserving?
<elfy> "Where people are uncomfortable joining a hangout, and want to do that in audio only then that is fine" 
<skellat> Nothing says we have to stick with Google Hangouts.  We can always go to Mumble and deposit the audio with Archive.org.  
<knome> most definitely
<knome> and we can decide not to do non-IRC meetings as well if that's the consensus
<elfy> I hasten to add that I really don't have mic or camera and if I had then you'd have heard me and seen me 
<Noskcaj> no-one did anything that requires video, but that may change in the future. we might have to decide after each meeting
<skellat> yofel has a server we could use, we could use Hacker Public Radio's server and have our sessions really made available to a wide audience, and we could set up ourselves too.
<pleia2> audio only is fine as long as we don't mind not knowing who is talking :)
<knome> Noskcaj, no, *before* each meeting.
<pleia2> elfy: ah, see I assumed it was a privacy thing :)
<Unit193> knome: It actually is harder to understand your spoken word without seeing you.
<elfy> pleia2: it is - but not so much for me 
<pleia2> I assumed the same with Unit193 not showing his name/video too, it was surprising to see his face the 2nd day!
<knome> pleia2, it probably is... but otoh, there wasn't privacy concerns because we didn't communicate it clearly enough how we would proceed with the streaming.
<Unit193> pleia2: Couldn't the first, kept turning it off the second.
<knome> pleia2, he was already in in the testing session on night 0 !
<pleia2> knome: yeah, I just assumed everyone was familiar with ubuntu on air stuff because it's been around for a while now
<knome> pleia2, tbh i kind of am, but i didn't think of the privacy concerns before today.
<knome> pleia2, i mean, in the case of the xubuntu sessions.
<pleia2> and I'm the wrong one to ask about privacy, anyone in the world can easily get my home address
<pleia2> and know where I am at any given moment
<pleia2> princessleia.com/where \o/
<Noskcaj> someone ping me when we change topic, this is getting repetitive.
<knome> mine as well, and if you happen to know my real name (not really hard to find out either), you can't be mistaken of the person. i'm the only one of me around.
<knome> (of my name)
<elfy> :)
 * knome looks where pleia2 is
<knome> "oh, USA"
<skellat> I actually have a cousin with a different middle name in Florida who is a knucklehead
<knome> :]
<knome> meh.
<skellat> But yeah, my home address is easily found through voter records in Ohio which are just a downloadable CSV file
<knome> should we talk about the 3NoX sessions specifically?
<ochosi> (nox=night in latin)
<knome> ochosi, i know! :)
<knome> what are we going to do what we have now
<knome> then consider how we want to proceed
<knome> (we can even schedule one complete meeting for that)
<knome> s/proceed/proceed with session recordings in the future/
<skellat> Status Quo pending further discussion
<knome> let's make this easy.
<knome> ochosi, how long are you comfortable the session being up?
<knome> Unit193, how long are you comfortable the session being up?
<ochosi> i was assuming it would go away after the meetings over, and i still don't see the use of keeping it up if we have notes
<Unit193> knome: As in, how long would I like to keep them up?  I would like them off in two weeks, but I could do with the saucy cycle I suppose.
<knome> ochosi, that isn't really an answer for my question 
<ochosi> but whatever, if you wanna keep it up for a certain while, i don't feel like being the grinch
<knome> i think this is a good start
<knome> would it be a viable option to keep sessions up for the whole cycle?
<ochosi> more felt like the beginning of the end for hangouts
<knome> pleia2? is that open enough?
<knome> i mean, people could refer to the sessions as long as we were developing the release we're talking about..
<pleia2> knome: this time ;)
<knome> ...items need to be taken up again anyway after a release
<knome> pleia2, and in the future?
<pleia2> if people are ok with it, maybe next UDS we tell them to turn off their camera if they're not comfy
<lderan> that sounds fair
<knome> in that case i don't think i'm comfortable in having hangouts, tbh
<knome> being in G+ is giving a hardish time for me anyway.
<skellat> *snort* The feed for Randall Ross failed in one session this morning so all you saw was a generic G+ avatar with him talking
<pleia2> yeah, real name policy there and all
<elfy> shall we shelve this for the moment? 
<pleia2> I don't love G+ for that
<pleia2> elfy: wise
<elfy> let people think some more and revisit it 
<skellat> If I didn't have to maintain my LoCo's G+ Page, I wouldn't even be using it
<knome> well i suppose we have a plan for the 3NoX: keep the sessions up for the saucy cycle, then make them private
<knome> i will be downloading them to my harddrive for archiving as well, so we can check things if we need to.
<pleia2> ok
<Unit193> So, we're technically going against the vote.
<elfy> appears so 
<knome> Unit193, it wasn't technically a wise vote...
<knome> i mean, how it was set up
<skellat> Hold a quickie vote to ratify what we've done now and overrule the previous?
<knome> i don't think we have a choice here
<knome> sure.
<skellat> Besides, I'm having a hard enough time searching for the second night's video in YouTube as it is
<knome> #vote Should we keep the 3NoX session recordings up for the Saucy cycle (+1) or delete them instantly (-1) ?
<meetingology> Please vote on: Should we keep the 3NoX session recordings up for the Saucy cycle (+1) or delete them instantly (-1) ?
<meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (private votes don't work yet, but when they do it will be by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0 to me)
<knome> skellat, just look at the mailing list :)
<knome> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from knome
<Unit193> +0
<meetingology> +0 received from Unit193
<pleia2> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from pleia2
<lderan> +0
<meetingology> +0 received from lderan
<elfy> +0
<meetingology> +0 received from elfy
<skellat> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from skellat
<skellat> knome: It just shows how low discoverability is
<knome> ochosi?
<ochosi> -1
<meetingology> -1 received from ochosi
<knome> skellat, at the moment, but google will fix that
<knome> if we end with a tie between +1 and 0, do you think the vote is still valid?
<knome> people who voted +0, please specify with a few words.
<knome> (if you wanted C. something else, or if you are just abstaining)
<elfy> I was abstaining as, whether it's there forver or just 30 hours - I'm not there anyway 
<knome> elfy, thanks.
<elfy> so I need to really abstain
<knome> Unit193, lderan?
<knome> fair enough
<Unit193> knome: I won't vote against it, but I can't exactly vote for it.
<skellat> Unit193: Blank/spoiled ballot then?
<lderan> abstained, I have no issues with my face being in the public domain. As long as there is an archive of the video somewhere im good
<knome> (i just want to point out that we are in the 1,5 hour mark; and one couldn't say it's because we're not communicating all the time)
<knome> #endvote
<meetingology> Voting ended on: Should we keep the 3NoX session recordings up for the Saucy cycle (+1) or delete them instantly (-1) ?
<meetingology> Votes for:3 Votes against:1 Abstentions:3
<meetingology> Motion carried
<ochosi> ok folks, getting late here
 * pleia2 causetrouble
<knome> #agreed We will keep the 3NoX videos up for the Saucy cycle, then make them inaccessible in YouTube. This overrules the previous vote.
 * knome hugs pleia2 
 * pleia2 hugs
 * skellat hugs pleia2
<pleia2> hugs all around!
<ochosi> hf hugging everyone and good night ;)
<knome> #topic LSC
<pleia2> woo uds
<pleia2> :)
<knome> nighty ochosi 
<elfy> night ochosi 
<knome> Noskcaj, ping
<pleia2> night ochosi 
<lderan> night ochosi 
<Unit193> ochosi: Night, but I didn't hug.
<knome> Unit193, puss och kram
<ochosi> (and wrt LSC, don't forgtet to check whether lubuntu doesn't want to drop it)
<Noskcaj> i think lubuntu are supporting it now, but need more devs. should i fetch phillw?
<Unit193> https://code.launchpad.net/~lubuntu-software-center-team/light-software-center/trunk
<knome> feel free to
<elfy> brb
<Unit193> I'd rather have Synaptic rather than LSC.  Now, would LSC be in addition to, or replacing USC?  One of the main features is paid applications, or so I hear.
<knome> Unit193, i would imagine replacing. but we need to discuss the state of LSC first
<pleia2> generally I prefer USC because we know that will be supported and maintained long-term
<knome> yes, i think the biggest negative side in getting LSC would be needing to (co)maintain it
<pleia2> (lubuntu is a small team and LSC does need work)
<knome> that's not something we want
<pleia2> yeah
<Noskcaj> i use neither, but the fact LSC is far more lightweight better follows the project goals
<elfy> back
<knome> but i'm interested in hearing if LSC is becoming something more general maintained by some specific group (and not requiring maintenance from xubuntu's side)
<skellat> I can't say I really use either USC or LSC.  I still mostly with aptitude and apt-offline.
<knome> Noskcaj, goals yes, but not the means
<pleia2> Noskcaj: I'd say project maturity is more important, and LSC needs work
<knome> Noskcaj, or are you willing to spend your time on being the maintainer from xubuntu?
<pleia2> it's a great effort and it's nice to see a team working on a lightweight alternative that's more friendly than synaptic, I just don't think it's where we need it to be
<elfy> I'd not be +1 to replacing a thing that I know works fine like synaptic with lsc
<knome> isn't there some recent development for synaptic as well? (Unit193?)
<Unit193> knome: There has been some, yes.  For one thing, it's been ported to GTK3.
<Noskcaj> knome, no, mostly because i'm not capable of it.
<knome> we will probably need to discuss this in a more "serious" meeting, but what do you think generall of USC/synaptic and which we should have
<pleia2> synaptic still launches with an "All" menu that starts with Amateur Radio, Communication, Communication (multiverse)... and it's not so pretty or intuitive :)
<knome> Noskcaj, i wouldn't expect many would, even if they were capable, and while i'm not deciding on other peoples' time devoting, i wouldn't say it's the wises place to put developer effort in
<pleia2> going through this list for a normal user is huge scary
<Unit193> https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/raring/+source/synaptic/+changelog little info here at least.
<elfy> pleia2: but it's not so slow as to make me think it's hung 
<pleia2> GObject Introspection data <--- that even scares me
<knome> lol
<pleia2> elfy: yeah, but if I gave this to my uncle he'd have no idea this is how you're supposed to install software
<pleia2> it's some hacker tool or something
<elfy> :)
<knome> should we install synaptic *in addition* to USC?
<Noskcaj> elfy, i doubt we'd replace synaptic with it.
<elfy> knome: I don't think we need do that - if it's there those who prefer it can soon apt-get it 
<knome> Noskcaj, we aren't shipping synaptic
<elfy> I thought the issue was replacing usc with lsc
<knome> yes
<knome> or the question
<elfy> yea 
<knome> and my other question was if we wanted to add synaptic
<Noskcaj> everyone adanced nough to use synaptic knows how to install it from the command line. and other users would not use it at all
<elfy> my answer to that last one is ^^
<knome> but i suppose people are too tired... so thanks!
<knome> #endmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting ended Thu May 16 21:40:59 2013 UTC.  
<meetingology> Minutes (wiki):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/xubuntu-devel/2013/xubuntu-devel.2013-05-16-20.04.moin.txt
<meetingology> Minutes (html):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/xubuntu-devel/2013/xubuntu-devel.2013-05-16-20.04.html
<Noskcaj> knome, oops
<knome> Noskcaj, np.
<knome> Noskcaj, i did talk with phillw, and it sounded like they wanted xubuntu to seed LSC to get us comaintain it
<elfy> was what I thought he was saying too 
<knome> (he didn't specifically try to hide that, but he didn't explicitly state that eitehr)
<Noskcaj> i was there knome.
<knome> Noskcaj, yup. for the logs as well.
<knome> i was also thinking if i discussed that with him on a PM, but it was documentation
<Noskcaj> It would be a shame to lose LSC from lack of maintenance, but you guys are right with it's not ready yet
<knome> i agree, but if even lubuntu doesn't think it's worth enough to maintain it... :/
<Unit193> That was a long meeting...
<phillw> present as summonsed :)
<elfy> lol
<elfy> hi phillw 
<phillw> hiyas elfy :)
<knome> i should take a note of the meeting log urls before they slide off the backscroll
<elfy> good lord - I talked a lot - less than you but ... 
<elfy> imagine what I'd belike with a mic - you'd have to mute me :p
<Unit193> elfy: I did too much, too.
<knome> lol
<knome> Unit193, good good
<Unit193> knome: I muted you when you walked away from one of the hangouts. :D
<knome> Unit193, oh, didn't i do that myself?
<knome> oops. :)
<elfy> poor old matt symes has got wireless issues with the 13.10 bcwml update today in xubuntu 
<knome> -team members: http://xubuntu.org/?p=1723&preview=true
<knome> and editing should be open for everybody as usually. minor edits welcome without asking, for major edits please ask
<pleia2> do we want to link to http://freedesktop.org/software/pulseaudio/pavucontrol/ ?
<knome> not sure it's useful
<pleia2> yeah maybe not
<pleia2> read through, looks good
<knome> it was an conscious decision to leave it out when i wrote the article
<knome> s/an/a/
 * pleia2 nods
<knome> s/the article/the original article/ :)
<pleia2> one other thing, do we want to link the HUD spec in case someone wants to take a peek?
<knome> hmm... is there one?
<pleia2> well, that rationale wiki page and stuff
<knome> hmm. well that's written mostly becuase gridcube couldn't join us
<pleia2> ah ok
<knome> much like many of the comments on the blueprints
<pleia2> gotcha
<knome> we're not linking to the blueprints
<knome> maybe we should
<pleia2> ah, yeah probably should
<pleia2> maybe at the bottom along with summaries
<Unit193> http://paste.openstack.org/show/XnhprZ2fr42yUvNQUQ5x/ it's a start, I'll continue.
<knome> pleia2, yup
<pleia2> Unit193: what's wrong with the ubuntu pastebin? :)
<Unit193> pleia2: Many, many things.
<pleia2> lol
<Unit193> Worst I've seen yet.
<knome> before anybody asks, i'm specifically not linking to the videos, but they are linked to in the summaries.
<pleia2> yeah
<knome> the blueprints are linked now
<pleia2> looks good
<knome> and Unit193's paste looks good too
<knome> Unit193, will you eventually turn that into a merge request or shall i worry about getting it in via other methods?
<phillw> knome: obviously I missed the discussion.. was a decision made on using LSC in xubuntu?
<Unit193> knome: Not enough changed yet.
<knome> Unit193, sure, that's why i said "eventually" :)
<knome> phillw, the problem with LSC for us is that we feel like we would get some unwanted maintaining burden if we took it
<knome> phillw, also, it still needs work before it lives up to our expectations as a package manager, and that's just another hole where we should stuff our time into
<phillw> knome: with the major bug fixed, LSC should now be back stable again. Julien is going to upload the patch into saucy and we can then test it.
<knome> what's the maintaining situation of it?
<knome> and is it still going to be called "lubuntu soft.c." ?
<knome> from my point of view, it might gather a lot more momentum if it wasn't tied so closely to lubuntu with its name
<phillw> knome: Jorg is keen to support it. If xubuntu wish to use it, I can ask Julien to change the branding to "Light Software Center" or something like that.
<knome> as i said, we don't think it's still ready enough for the single package manager in xubuntu (and we don't want two!)
<knome> but i would think it would do good for the project to try to unlink it from lubuntu
<phillw> okies, no worries :)
<knome> even if it was just the name
<knome> but since we're not contributing to it... feel free to call it whatever suits you
<knome> you can even call it the "whatever suits you the package manager"
<phillw> I do agree that re-naming it does make sense, as it runs perfectly fine under xubuntu
<knome> and probably debian?
<knome> does anybody want to look at the article before i go and publish it?
<knome> i'll do in 10 if nobody says a thing about that before.
<phillw> i would imagine that as it a gui for synaptic, it will work on all apt-get systems.
<knome> gui for apt you mean
<phillw> indeed :D
<knome> :)
<knome> brb
<knome> phillw, i don't know what their take is on this, or if i've already said this, but you might want to briefly ask the ubuntu studio people about their plans for package managers in the future
<knome> i don't even know what they are shipping at the moment
<Unit193> knome: SC, synaptic.
<knome> sc as in usc?
<phillw> knome: I've just e-mailed Julien to ask if renaming it to "Light Software Centre" would be a problem. 
<knome> awesome
<knome> should i worry about starting to sound like jono?
<phillw> jajaja :D
<phillw> afaik, studio use what ever xubuntu does?
<knome> not necessarily
<phillw> brb nicotine enhancement needed
<knome> they did base off much of their work on xubuntu when they switched to xfce but since then they've started to diverge
<zequence> we've more fallen behind, I would say
<Unit193> knome: Yes.
<zequence> That's something we need to work out for this cycle
<zequence> We're experimenting with adding more desktop metas to the mix
<knome> diverging, falling behind... aren't they synonyms? :]
<zequence> Well, our plan was to follow Xubuntu, and it is happening to some extent
<zequence> But, the method, or procedure for maintaining the desktop stuff isn't really worked out. Only len-1304 is doing much work on that right now
<knome> pleia2, since twitter asked if "my" email is still x@pl, i'm wondering if we wanted to set up a "xubuntu" email account in some canonical hosted (possible?) system to be able to access all the social media stuff even if pretty much everybody vanished off the eart
<knome> +h
<knome> zequence, aha. sorry to hear that :(
<knome> http://xubuntu.org/news/looking-towards-xubuntu-13-10/
<Unit193> knome: And did you prefer tiny merges, or groups?
<knome> Unit193, group is fine
<knome> Unit193, as long as you list anything you've done in the commit messages (or the changelog preferably)
<phillw> back
<Unit193> Hrm, changelog, riiight.
<pleia2> knome: canonical doesn't do hosted email, only forwards
<knome> Unit193, don't feel at all obliged to do that. commit messages are perfectly fine
<knome> pleia2, in that case, *something*
<pleia2> knome: we can just create a shared gmail account
<pleia2> or an outlook.com account!
<knome> i have problems with shared accounts on google
<knome> but i'm fine with that
<knome> i mean, it's clumsy
<Unit193> knome: And You prefer "friendly" names?  I saw file-roller, so I should change to Archive Manager?
<knome> and you can't really set up a "group" account, and i
<phillw> if you have xubuntu.org, I can ask for an educational account for you
<pleia2> shared as in we all have the password to a single account ;)
<knome> ...hate that they try to enforce the "first last" policy there as well
<knome> pleia2, i know, but that's the clumsy part
<pleia2> phillw: we're not a registered non-profit and I really don't want to violate the google terms
<knome> did i whine about google's age policy already?
<pleia2> yes :)
<pleia2> (probably)
<knome> yeah, that's the OTHER problem
<phillw> pleia2: I'm not a registered non-profit either and phillw.net has one :)
<pleia2> phillw: I assume you got that when they were free?
<knome> (try to set a birthday to 2013, google locks your account)
<pleia2> I have one too, but they aren't free anymore
<Unit193> knome: Set it to 1903.
<knome> Unit193, we created a new one and set it to 1986 (the year the organization was foundeD)
<pleia2> there isn't a way to get a free one anymore unless you're a non-profit or otherwise entitled (educational institute, etc) and we're not
<phillw> pleia2: I know a man who can still issue them, mine is based of his USA system.. There has been a lot of strife going on, but he is still able to issue them.
<knome> the funny thing was that they had run google analytics with the account for years
<knome> i don't think i want to use any backport either
<knome> we can just use any other email provider as well
<knome> who doesn't enforce us to do silly things
 * pleia2 nods
<phillw> but, as always, it is just a suggestion for you people.
<pleia2> phillw: thanks
<pleia2> we'll figure something out :)
<pleia2> I don't think we want to overhead of a whole system anyway, we just want one account
<knome> definitely
<phillw> does not your DNS provider offer a basic email system?
<knome> the point was to not rely on any person
<pleia2> canonical owns xubuntu.org
<phillw> pleia2: maybe raise an RT? The worst they can say is NO :)
<pleia2> phillw: they only do forwards, and forwards don't solve our problem ;)
<knome> i'm pretty sure they won't set up emails if they aren't doing it already
<knome> pleia2, i imagine a forward could be a partial solution... if a person disappears, just ask IS to point to another email address and you'd be able to recover
<knome> ...passwords for sites
<pleia2> but no history
#xubuntu-devel 2013-05-17
<knome> true, see the part between "could be a" and "solution" ;)
<Unit193> Just have to remember in a shared account, if pleia2 goes rogue she can still take over the account.
<pleia2> I'd rather not go through the pain of getting them to set up xubuntu.org for email forwards for a partial solution, easiest just for a basic shared account and be done with it
<knome> yes.
<knome> probably
<knome> does IS do private (password-protected) email lists?
<pleia2> yeah
<knome> that might be a solution if we could send email from the same list.
<knome> i mean, the list address.
<pleia2> mailman overhead makes me gjdksljfdskl
<knome> hmm, that's interesting
<knome> tell me more :P
<pleia2> :P
<knome> oh well, just an idea that popped
<knome> i'm sure you are sensible with that stuff and won't disappear without saying a word
<knome> and helps a lot that multiple people have an access to each outlet as well
<pleia2> I hold keys to ubuntu-news and -women shared gmail accounts too
<pleia2> oh and california
<pleia2> they're all in my thunderbird
<knome> i suppose if you want to set one up, then simply go ahead
<pleia2> no more workkk
<knome> hehe
<knome> don't have to
<knome> anyway, i'm off for today
<knome> good night and see you all later
<knome> and thanks for the hangouts and meetings :)
<pleia2> good night :)
<Unit193> pleia2: Alive?
<pleia2> Unit193: yes, the cybermen outside haven't gotten to me yet
<Unit193> Oi!  That's much more important than what I had, have any of those hand devices to touch the back of their neck?
<pleia2> nope, just hiding
<Unit193> http://docs.xubuntu.org/internet-networks.html#network-troubleshooting I'm thinking ping -c6 google.com  would be much better in testing a connection.  I typically check 8.8.8.8 first, then check if it's DNS though.
<Unit193> Don't make sounds...
<pleia2> I'd rather not rely upon a 3rd party for pings
<pleia2> (can't imagine google would be too happy either!)
<pleia2> I understand that google is less likely to be down, but I don't think it's really appropriate for official docs
<Unit193> Alrighty...  (I don't think Google would notice 3 more pings, I'd hazard a guess many people use that method. :P )
<Unit193> It's why I asked.
<pleia2> of course, it's more the principle of the thing
<Unit193> I understood that, even if I'm not fond of it. :P
<pleia2> :)
<pleia2> https://plus.google.com/+xubuntu/posts
<pleia2> winnar
<pleia2> (it offered this custom url when I logged in, neat-o!_
<Unit193> Is it supposed to look like that?
<pleia2> I was referring to having a custom url now
<Unit193> Got that part, rather nice.
<Unit193> knome: Alright, so added more changes, and one section I know is iffy, but figured I'd add and it can be removed later.  I have it built and online so you can look at it.
<Malsasa> Hello, will Xubuntu 13.10 gets its own Proxy Configurator? I coudn't find it on Xubuntu 13.04. But sorry if I'm wrong. 
<ochosi> Malsasa: depends if someone writes one
<knome> pleia2, re: social media: while you were away, we wanted to update the G+ group, but we couldn't catch knew nenc. that speaks even more for a shared account that more people have access to or alternatively simply adding more admins or requiring the non-team-member admins to be reachable within a reasonalbe timespan (1 day at most...)
<knome> i think i just set automatic translations from our documentation to launchpad...
 * knome whistles
<knome> https://translations.launchpad.net/xubuntu-docs \o/
<knome> OI OI
<knome> we still need to look at some details... but that's a good start i'd say
<elfy> nice one :)
<smartboyhw> knome: After mid-June I will translate it into Chineseâ¦ (Traditional probably)
<knome> smartboyhw, before doing that, check that we've been able to set up things we want to
<knome> i mean, i don't want anybody to do things if we are going to waste it...
<smartboyhw> knome: I said mid-June:P I have confidence that you brilliant guys can set up all these things before then:)
<knome> most probably, but be sure to check out
<smartboyhw> knome: I will;)
<pleia2> knome: yeah, right before I left the main admin added another g+ admin, I assumed that would help make sure it stayed updated
<pleia2> I can add ochosi if we+he wants
<knome> if he wants, sure
<knome> did you see my mention about the docs?
<pleia2> translations?
<knome> yup
<pleia2> does it work? :)
<knome> i suppose it's working.
<pleia2> even better
<pleia2> thanks
<knome> i could test it by translating one string to finnish
<knome> i suppose the question now is how we can leverage the .po files on installations
<knome> ok, i've translated one string to finnish. it should take some time to update the .po files
<knome> oh hmm.  This project series is not sharing translations with an Ubuntu source package.
<knome> ah, there we go
<knome> "Launchpad can commit daily snapshots of the translations for this release series to a code branch."
<knome> i've set that to lp:xubuntu-docs now
<knome> i'm wondering if it should point somewhere else or not
<knome> probably fine as it is, as long as we push a new version to ubuntu before each milestone or so
<knome> hmm, now we are sharing :)
<pleia2> http://www.dedoimedo.com/computers/xubuntu-ringtail-high-end.html
<pleia2> should add that and http://news.softpedia.com/news/Xubuntu-13-04-Screenshot-Tour-348563.shtml to a new page for 13.04 press stuff
 * pleia2 makes bug so not forget
<Unit193> knome: You sleeping/taking a day olff?
<knome> Unit193, i'm here
#xubuntu-devel 2013-05-18
<Unit193> knome: http://paste.openstack.org/show/8O5dwKe08rdEFB94vUzr/ make sense?  Thinking that here or not much later would be good so it doesn't pile up.
<knome> is @DNS-HERE a keyword?
<knome> Unit193, ^
<Unit193> No, that's why I said "and one section I know is iffy, but figured I'd add and it can be removed later."
<knome> i would just drop "or ..." then
<knome> otherwise, it looks good
<Unit193> http://vanir.unit193.tk/xubuntu/desktop-guide/internet-networks.html#network-troubleshooting-advanced
<knome> yeah
<pleia2> oh yeah, how do we generate the html again?
<knome> btw, "bound to xxx.xxx.xxx.xxx" should be <guitext> or sth
<pleia2> I will do it now
<knome> pleia2, dl the branch, then type "make" in the docs root
<pleia2> k
<knome> then look under build/
<Unit193> knome: I didn't add that bit, but I could change it.  You read the ENTITY changes?
<knome> Unit193, i did, they are good. i know you didn't add it, but i thought while you are there...
<knome> i suppose same with NOERROR too actually
<knome> what about the wording in "should be working"?
<knome> how common it is that DNS isn't working if that command runs as expected?
<knome> actually, i'd probably go:
<knome> "If you see the word <guitext>NOERROR</guitext> in the header section of the output, your DNS is working."
<knome> or "your DNS server is working."
<Unit193> Domain Name Server server is working.
<knome> we're talking about DNS before
<knome> maybe change the section title to "Check Domain Name Servers (DNS)"
<Unit193> DNS is Domain Name Server.
<Unit193> Alright.
<knome> yes, but literally we've been using "DNS"
<knome> so if we didn't think it's needed to write it out before, why now
<Unit193> I don't know, I just used "DNS" as that's what you see with  nm-tool
<Unit193> guitext isn't a thing.
<knome> hmm
<pleia2> http://docs.xubuntu.org/ has raring docs now
<knome> pleia2, cool
<pleia2> the quantal ones are at http://docs.xubuntu.org/1210/
<pleia2> (not linked anywhere really though)
<knome> agh, i need to work on the startpage for that
<Unit193> <literal>?
<knome> Unit193, i'll check the tag in a minute
<Unit193> eth1 was using that.  Sure.
 * Unit193 doesn't know docbook.
<knome> in that case it's probably fine
<knome> as long as we are consisten
<knome> +t
<knome> pleia2, want to draft a text for that?
<pleia2> startpage text?
<knome> pleia2, should we use "Xubuntu Desktop Guide" instead of "Xubuntu Offline Documentation"
<knome> pleia2, for docs.x.o
<pleia2> yeah
<pleia2> but that's what it generates with magic
<knome> yeah, but i was considering doing that with the actual docs as well
<pleia2> good
<pleia2> the top part is an image so I can't change that
<knome> or just "Xubuntu Documentation" ?
<pleia2> "Xubuntu Documentation" is nice
<knome> okay
<knome> then i can probably fix the image as well
<knome> :)
<pleia2> the makefile needs some love for html too, it doesn't do it right :)
<knome> what's wrong?
<pleia2> common/ and about/ should be in the desktop-guide/ directory
<pleia2> instead they are all in the same directory
<knome> i'm not sure i'm following; let me make as well
<pleia2> http://paste.ubuntu.com/5675805/
<knome> hmm.
<Unit193> Updated and online.
<pleia2> (of course ignore the 1210 directory)
<knome> i'm wondering if that breaks the offline docs part.
 * knome looks
<pleia2> it's not a huge deal if it's too much of a pain to fix
<knome> i'll fix that as we go
<knome> i mean, at a stage when i'm ready to fix the docbook stuff and see if that turns out right
<Unit193> http://paste.openstack.org/show/sYSGzXs205cZ5UwCKFPe/ latest.
<knome> pleia2, if you pull now, it should be fixed
<knome> Unit193, goodie. gonna make a merge request of that?
<Unit193> Now I have to explain what I did. :(
<knome> * Reflect default application changes (GIMP and Gnumeric)
<knome> * Update the network troubleshooting section
<knome> that should be it
<knome> and you can mention that you updated the irc channel name, but -testing still works, so no need to
<knome> meh at pastebins not supporting word wrap!
<knome> pleia2, fix that and get paid for it!
<pleia2> knome: what should be fixed?
<Unit193> Whoops.  Well I suppose verbose isn't bad...  Should I add myself to whatever credits file there is?  :P
<knome> Unit193, changelog.
<Unit193> Yes, but credits too?
<pleia2> knome: oh, pull of trunk?
<knome> Unit193, sure, if you're not in there :)
<knome> pleia2, yup lp:xubuntu-
<knome> docs
<pleia2> ah gotcha
<knome> why would you think i'd push anywhere else since i have the powers to puah there? :P
<Unit193> http://docs.xubuntu.org/ln-idp3702784.html if it wasn't 404ing http://vanir.unit193.tk/xubuntu/desktop-guide/ln-idp1938936.html
<knome> push too
<knome> Unit193, it's docs.xubuntu.org/ln-idp5598192.html now ...
<knome> Unit193, and definitely, go ahead
<Unit193> bzr: ERROR: No such file: u'/home/unit193/Documents/xubuntu-docs/.bzr/repository/indices/c85a7715032106aa74b0a9eeb8c109ab.six': [Errno 2] No such file or directory: u'/home/unit193/Documents/xubuntu-docs/.bzr/repository/indices/c85a7715032106aa74b0a9eeb8c109ab.six
<pleia2> gah, copyright
<Unit193> I have no idea what to do with that.
<knome> huh?
<knome> wth.
<Unit193> bzr fix-it-now ? :P
<knome> uhhh.. i'm stumped.
<knome> that sounds stupid
<knome> why on earth are we being idiots with the legal notice
<pleia2> the Canonical nonsense?
<pleia2> I don't know what it should say
<knome> :D
<knome> no, just the technical way we're including it and making it a pain in the lower back
<Unit193> Ok, I really, really, really hate this.
<skellat> Unit193: What do you hate?
<knome> Unit193, still stuck?
<Unit193> knome: Oh, no.  Not stuck anymore, the changes aren't there anymore.
<knome> ugh
<Unit193> Note, I still greatly dislike bzr.
<knome> noted.
<Unit193> Done, now lets see if I mess with that again. :P
<knome> you fixed bzr? wooo
<knome> ;)
<Unit193> I'm not God, I can't do that.
<knome> boo :(
<Unit193> https://code.launchpad.net/~unit193/xubuntu-docs/saucy/+merge/164566 anyway.
<Unit193> Ummm...
<knome> nvm the conflicts.
<knome> i'll handle that..
<Unit193> Alright, so I'm done?
<knome> yup!
<knome> thanks
<Unit193> Whew, great!
<Unit193> Thanks.
<Unit193> (I pulled from the pastebin, it wasn't too old.)
<knome> :)
<knome> pushed to lp:xubuntu-docs
<knome> thanks again
<Unit193> Sure thing, glad it helps.
<Unit193> Dowh, I was going to correct the /home/username section...
<knome> pleia2, oi princess!
<knome> pleia2, bzr branch lp:xubuntu-website/docs-startpage 
<pleia2> ooh
 * pleia2 does so
<pleia2> 12.10 is still supported :)
<pleia2> I'm thinking we use the same wording as on help.ubuntu.com
<pleia2> Ubuntu 13.04 - the current stable version, released in April 2013, codenamed Raring Ringtail.
<pleia2> Ubuntu 12.10 - a previous stable version, released in October 2012, codenamed Quantal Quetzal.
<knome> well, you know, feel free to update the branch..
<pleia2> (ignore LTS until we fix the docs)
<pleia2> okie
<knome> it's just a simple html file
<pleia2> I did bzr wrong \o/
<knome> heh
<knome> i wonder if doing it right is possible...
<pleia2> crap, how was I supposed to merge this thing?
<knome> merge? :D
<knome> how can you be in a situation to merge when you only have one commit before your work?
<pleia2> Merging from remembered parent location bzr+ssh://bazaar.launchpad.net/+branch/xubuntu-website/docs-startpage/
<pleia2> Nothing to do. 
<pleia2> oh
<pleia2> push?
<knome> yes
<knome> commit first.
<knome> then push
<pleia2> yeah did commit
<pleia2> I need to stop switching between RCSs all day, I end up not knowing how to use any of them
<pleia2> anyway, done
<pleia2> boo, bad whitespace
<knome> \o/
<knome> hmm
<pleia2> there, better
<knome> btw
<knome> it's quantal, not quantum
<pleia2> haha
<pleia2> too much openstack :(
<knome> "We require that all translations made in Launchpad are BSD licensed. This does not apply to translations imported from elsewhere. Read more about translation licensing.", from https://help.launchpad.net/Translations/YourProject
<knome> just FYI
<pleia2> ok
<pleia2> seems fine
<knome> i thought so as well, but wanted to share
<Unit193> pleia2: I don't ping you with every paste, do I? ;)
<knome> should we write a blog post about compiz on xubuntu?
<pleia2> knome: ugh, just noticed the docs look for /common/ rather than common/ so they're looking in the docroot for those files (which change between versions)
<pleia2> actually
<pleia2> ../common/
<pleia2> bah
<knome> did you get the latest commit?
<knome> that's probably wrong though
<pleia2> not pulling trunk
<pleia2> for 1210 and 1304
<knome> let me go fix that
<knome> right
<pleia2> uploaded splash page and moved some stuff around
<Noskcaj> if you run out of things to do to the websites, the upgrade page needs upgradeinh and distrowatch should link to more than just Xubuntu
<knome> pleia2, trunk should be now a bit nicer to you
<knome> pleia2, for the future
<knome> anyway, i'm running out of battery (laptop) and it's soon 6am.
<knome> night!
<knome> and see you later
<knome> :) --<
<knome> -->
<pleia2> thank you :) good night!
<knome> skellat, did you have some changes you wanted to merge to xubuntu-docs?
<skellat> knome: Nope.  Just spent time rebasing my working tree to match the upstream tree
<skellat> knome: Changes will be made eventually.  I have some sort of family event today to attend to.
<knome> oki
<knome> i will start watching the FIN-SWE ice hockey match now as well :)
<ochosi> knome: i just received some screenshots from elfy of gnome's mixer
<ochosi> i think the way things are arranged there is much more useful than what we have in pavucontrol atm
<ochosi> that'd lead to 3 tabs basically: output | input | applications
<ochosi> apps shouldn't be the first/default tab, as it is now, cause most ppl don't need this fine level of control
<ochosi> that's my first impression/assessment, i'll look into it more next week when/if i have time
<knome> ochosi, sounds sensible
<len-1310> ochosi, does this mean xfce is redoing it's mixer app?
<len-1310> or is this a new project?
<knome> len-1310, they aren't; this is something we want to do for xubuntu
<knome> len-1310, xfce4-mixer doesn't support pulseaudio anyway, so it's not a good fit for us
<len-1310> so it is a new project then
<knome> well, kind of
<len-1310> I understand
<knome> we're not adding any features
<knome> we're just looking to revamp the pavucontrol UI
<len-1310> Wil there still be a way of doing card config if not on a tab?
<knome> most definitely - we're not looking to drop features either
<len-1310> The ability to turn cards off is really important if the user has multiple cards.
<len-1310> I have to do so on two machines for different reasons.
<knome> i understand US generally has different needs
<knome> or users of US
<len-1310> Also, I have had many people ask if it is possible to record the output of another app instead of a physical input. It is possible with PA but the pavucontrol kind of hids this :)
<len-1310> That is actually a feature that is more useful outside of US.
<knome> if the feature exists in pavucontrol even if it's hidden... then be in touch with ochosi to get it more visible
<len-1310> OK
<len-1310> A connections window/dialog (if not tab) like qjackctl has. Would be nice.
<len-1310> But may be too much work.
<knome> well again, we're not planning on writing new features
<len-1310> It would be the easiest to explain to the new user.
<knome> if somebody from US wants to do that, we're ok with that :)
<len-1310> Its not really a new feature.
<knome> new feature for pavucontrol i mean
<len-1310> all of that info is there in pavucontrol, it is just spread over all the tabs.
<knome> in that case it's probably doable.
<len-1310> I can record youtube audio with audacity now (for example and not the best way to do things) with pavucontrol.
<len-1310> With most people it is wanting to record a skype call to make a podcast.
<jjfrv8> knome, I've been following the IRC logs. I'm ready for the docs effort whenever you guys are.
<knome> jjfrv8, if you see something lacking in the 13.10 docs, we're fine to go ahead with that already
<jjfrv8> Okay. Should I file bugs or what?
<len-1310> knome, just playing around with pavucontrol (13.10 alphaish) and some of the features that used to be there are gone and there are some new ones as well. Current functionality is adequate for any use I see. I can no longer choose the ouput of an app as an input, but I can choose an output to a device.
<len-1310> I can do so in an easy to explain way.
<knome> okay
<knome> jjfrv8, sure, or if you are familiar with merge requests, those are even better
<knome> jjfrv8, if you want, i can go through that with you
<jjfrv8> knome, yeah, I think I'll need some guidance there.
<knome> jjfrv8, want to do that now or later?
<jjfrv8> I've got time now if you do.
<knome> sure :)
<knome> are you familiar with bzr, eg. have you worked with the actual documentation markup yet?
<jjfrv8> negative
<knome> okay, let's start with that then
<knome> first, you need to install bzr
<knome> sudo apt-get install bzr
<jjfrv8> done
<knome> the next step is to download the branch to your pc
<knome> you might want to create a directory for that, but it's purely optional. i have /data/knome/Repositories/ for branches
<knome> in a directory where you are comfortable getting the branch, type:
<knome> bzr branch lp:xubuntu-docs
<knome> that will get you the latest source markup for the docs
<knome> let me know when you've done that or if you need more help with that
<jjfrv8> I think I messed it up. I got a message "You have not informed bzr of your lp id...
<knome> oh, okay :)
<jjfrv8> When I tried to copy that message I interrupted the process
<jjfrv8> Now I get an error when I re-run it
<knome> hmm
<knome> what's the error?
<jjfrv8> "already have a branch: xubuntu-docs
<knome> you can do 'rm -rf xubuntu-docs' and then redo the bzr branch command
<knome> that should guarantee you have the correct stuff
<jjfrv8> running it again...
<jjfrv8> "Branched 34 revisions" but still says I need to inform lp about id.
<knome> then type 'bzr launchpad-login jjfrv8-gmail'
<knome> that should make the message disappear
<jjfrv8> says I have not registered any SSH keys with lp.
<knome> right. let's go through that soon... :)
<jjfrv8> alrighty
<knome> type 'ssh-keygen -t rsa'
<jjfrv8> "Enter file in which to save the key". Take default?
<knome> yup, the default is fine
<jjfrv8> looks like it worked
<knome> great!
<knome> now you need to register the key with launchpad
<knome> if you look at ~/.ssh with thunar, you'll see a .pub file
<knome> i imagine the default is id_rsa.pub
<knome> that's you public ssh key
<jjfrv8> I see it
<knome> the file id_rsa is your private key; don't let others touch it :)
<knome> now open the .pub file
<jjfrv8> ok
<knome> then go to https://launchpad.net/~jjfrv8-gmail/+editsshkeys
<knome> you should have a textbox where you can insert the public key - just paste the whole .pub file contents there
<jjfrv8> pasted. Click Import button?
<knome> yup
<jjfrv8> SSH key added.
<knome> yes, and i can see that now as well
<knome> in https://launchpad.net/~jjfrv8-gmail
<knome> now let's get back to the docs source
<knome> cd into the xubuntu-docs directory
<jjfrv8> k
<knome> if you want to update the branch (eg. get the latest changes from launchpad) at a later time, you don't need to do bzr branch
<knome> just cd to this directory and type 'bzr pull'
<jjfrv8> ls
<jjfrv8> whoops
<knome> if you want to make sure you have the latest things when you start working on the docs, you can do that when you start working
<knome> bzr will simply tell you there's nothing to pull if you're at the latest version
<jjfrv8> Yup. See that.
<Unit193> I use bzr clone. :P
<knome> Unit193, isn't that deprecated? :)
<knome> now to get you familiar with the docbook markup
<Unit193> So it keeps telling me.
<knome> inside the branch directory, navigate to desktop-guide/C/
<knome> you'll find several .xml files, one for each section in the docs
<knome> open one in your favorite text editor to see how the markup looks like
<knome> (recommended to open something else than index.xml)
<jjfrv8> ok
<knome> (or cc-by-sa.xml to that matter :P)
<jjfrv8> looking at command-line.xml
<knome> ok, so you'll notice that the documentation follows a specific structure
<knome> i would say the best way to get your head around something new is to look for examples in the existing docs
<knome> we're covering pretty much every situation there
<knome> (just a sec, i'm checking a thing)
<knome> ok, now to build the docs
<knome> you will need some packages:
<knome> sudo apt-get install docbook docbook-xsl docbook-utils xsltproc
<jjfrv8> BTW, my main install is still 12.04. Is that a problem?
<knome> nope
<jjfrv8> finished
<knome> ok, great
<knome> now in the root directory of the branch
<knome> type *drumroll*....
<knome> make
<knome> that should build the documentation
<knome> (don't worry, your installed packages are untouched)
<jjfrv8> Looks like it worked.
<knome> good!
<knome> now if you look into the 'build' directory, you should see the built docs
<knome> you'll also have the desktop-guide directory there
<knome> and inside that, all the .html files for the sections you saw as .xml files before
<jjfrv8> got 'em.
<knome> great
<knome> now you got the basics on how to get the source, and how to build and test the docs
<knome> now go back to the .xml files and edit something
<knome> it can be a real bug you are willing to fix, or something silly
<knome> remember that you are browsing the latest version, so this is effectively the docs that will be in 13.10
<jjfrv8> Woohoo.
<knome> tell me when you've changed something and i'll continue
<jjfrv8> That was the "woohoo" :)
<knome> oh, ok :)
<knome> now you have a change you want us to merge to the docs source that eventually gets to the installed docs
<knome> if you had added new files, you would want to type 'bzr add .', which marks all new files to be included
<knome> usually you don't have to do that, but it's good to know
<knome> now let's commit your change to your local copy:
<knome> bzr commit
<knome> that'll open a text editor where you can write the description of the changes you made
<knome> eg. "Fixed a typo in section X." or "Added more information on X."
<knome> try to be accurate and thorough in the commit messages, since that's the only way somebody can easily see what we've changed
<jjfrv8> bzr commit says to "set your name with the whoami command"
<knome> ok, that's fair enough :)
<knome> you should do 'bzr whoami "Jack Fromm <email@address>"
<knome> -', or +' :)
<knome> that'll make sure others know who did all the awesome fixes
<jjfrv8> Ok, got the text editor up now and am adding description.
<knome> after you've done that, redo 'bzr commit'
<knome> great
<knome> when you've done, simply save the file and exit the editor
<knome> then bzr will go on and add the commit
<knome> if you want to cancel the commit, don't write anything and close the editor - bzr cancels the commit due to an empty commit message
<jjfrv8> Okay, that's what I did.
<knome> which one? :)
<jjfrv8> cancelled
<knome> oh, please go ahead
<knome> it can be silly
<knome> we won't be uploading silly commits the the installed docs :)
<jjfrv8> What's silly is I don't know how to save a file with nano :)
<knome> oh! :)
<knome> ctrl+o
<knome> and enter
<jjfrv8> ah!
<knome> so now you've done a change in the docs, (and in a real situation, you would want to build the docs in between and see if it's ok), and then committed locally
<knome> now we're ready to push the commit to launchad!
<knome> launchpad too!
<jjfrv8> So the 'bzr commit' is just local?
<knome> yes
<knome> you can even prepare several local commits before pushing
<jjfrv8> ok
<knome> so now what we need to do
<knome> you don't have the permissions to push to lp:xubuntu-docs (very few people do)
<knome> so you will need to push the branch under your own username
<knome> to be able to do a merge request, you will need to push to a specific location
<knome> to do that, type:
<knome> bzr push lp:~jjfrv8-gmail/xubuntu-docs/branchname
<knome> where branchname is anything you think is appropriate/descriptive
<knome> it can be "network-section-fixes"
<knome> or "saucy-applications"
<knome> or as i said, anything you wish
<knome> to do that, you will need the password from your ssh key if you set one
<jjfrv8> I didn't set one.
<knome> okay, then you won't need one :)
<jjfrv8> Did you want me to do the push?
<knome> that simply ensures it's you pushing to your repository, not Unit193 pushing silly things and saying you did it
<knome> yes please :)
<knome> once you've pushed, the branch will appear at https://code.launchpad.net/~jjfrv8-gmail
<jjfrv8> "you have not informed bzr of you lp ID"
<jjfrv8> I had accidentally closed the terminal
<jjfrv8> do I need to do the whoami again?
<knome> oh, no
<knome> 'bzr launchpad-id jjfrv8-gmail'
<knome> without the quotes
<knome> and you shouldn't need to run those after this, they should be saved
<knome> sorry, launchpad-login, not launchpad-id
<jjfrv8> couldn't connect to: /tmp/keyring-NqFY8U/pkcs11: No such file or directory
<knome> hmmm...
<knome> weird, that runs without problems for me
<knome> i'll check that
<Unit193> :D
<knome> Unit193, you know a workaround?
<knome> seems to be a stupid bug.
<Unit193> knome: Yes I do, but it's something to ignore anyway.  I get that all the time if I start screen before login, or x crashes.
<knome> jjfrv8, do you have gnome-keyring-daemon running?
<jjfrv8> Where do I check?
<knome> Unit193, it's a problem if people can't push to LP because of that, so if you have a workaround...
<knome> jjfrv8, 'ps -A | grep gnome-keyring' i suppose
<Unit193> knome: pianobar will output the error, and just continue.  It's looking for a moved dir, basically (deleted, recreated new name.) so I just link the old name to the new dir.
<knome> aha
<knome> what's the new dir then?
<knome> or is the filename simply different?
<knome> Unit193, and want to go through that with jjfrv8?
<knome> Unit193, would need fixing only once.
<Unit193> ls /tmp/  then ln -s newname /tmp/keyring-NqFY8U
<knome> jjfrv8, follow that?
<jjfrv8> Can I run that from anywhere or do I need to be in tmp?
<knome> jjfrv8, don't need to be in /tmp
<Unit193> Anywhere.
<knome> as long as you start "newname" with /tmp too
<Unit193> (Don't need to.)
<knome> hmm, okay.
<knome> :)
<Unit193> ln -s newlink /tmp/file > ls -lh /tmp/ > lrwxrwxrwx 1 unit193 unit193    7 May 18 13:26 file -> newlink
<jjfrv8> Okay, I ran that first command but it didn't seem to change anything.
<knome> jjfrv8, did you see a keyring-something file in the file listing?
<jjfrv8> Yes, and that's the name I plugged into the 'ln' command.
<knome> hmps
<jjfrv8> but that name is different from the one that shows up in the 'launchpad-login' error message.
<knome> you should replace "newname" with the name you saw in the output, and the latter with the one that's in the launchpad error message. is that what you did?
<jjfrv8> No, will do that now.
<knome> did that help?
<jjfrv8> Did that but it didn't help the bzr command.  Checking my typing again...
<knome> hmh.
<knome> note that you can tab-complete at least the newname
<jjfrv8> Yeah, forgot to specify full path.  But now getting "WARNING: gnome-keyring:: couldn't connect to: /tmp/keyring-NqFY8U/pkcs11: Too many levels of symbolic links
<knome> humm...
<knome> Unit193?
<Unit193> I didn't do it!
<Unit193> Sounds like linking didn't go well.
<knome> i meant any ideas...
<knome> yeah, stupid. :<
<knome> Unit193, what about copying back and forth?
<Unit193> ls -lh /tmp/ | pastebinit   or could just relogin or something.
<knome> hmpf.
<knome> jjfrv8, any news?
<knome> jjfrv8, did you run the command Unit193 proposed?
<knome> jjfrv8, or relogin or "something" :)
<jjfrv8> I did the pastebinit command but haven't relogged in.
<knome> paste us the url then :)
<knome> (from output)
<jjfrv8> just a sec
<jjfrv8> http://paste.ubuntu.com/5677910/
<knome> and the bzr command still gives you the same error?
<jjfrv8> Affirmative
<knome> try this:
<knome> rm /tmp/keyring-NqFy8U
<knome> cp /tmp/keyring-GEnH4D /tmp/keyring-NqFy8U
<knome> then run the bzr command
<jjfrv8> "no such file or directory"
<jjfrv8> output from bzr
<knome> hmm.
<knome> which file?
<knome> or, what is it looking for now
<jjfrv8> the one you told me to delete
<knome> did you also run the cp command?
<jjfrv8> oh, missed the following command
<knome> :)
<Unit193> This isn't going well. :P
<jjfrv8> It keeps saying "omitting directory" and doesn't do the copy
<knome> oh.
<knome> cp -R ...
<knome> Unit193, no, not at all. wonder what the real problem is
<jjfrv8> back to "too many levels of symbolic links"
<knome> bah.
<Unit193> knome: We should fix his pastebinit too! ;D
<knome> i would suggest logging in again
<knome> and retrying
<Unit193> echo -e "<pastebinit>\n\t<pastebin>http://paste.openstack.org</pastebin>\n</pastebinit>" | tee .pastebinit.xml    :D
<jjfrv8> logging in to lp or xubuntu?
<knome> xubuntu
<Unit193> knome: You found out he was running keyring?
<knome> Unit193, no. but i suppose he is, becuase he gets the error of too many symlinks..
<jjfrv8> output of ps -A | grep gnome-keyring = 2484 ?        00:00:00 gnome-keyring-d
<knome> yeah, it's running
<jjfrv8> logging off. bbs
<Unit193> If not, we can always take patches.
<knome> well meh.
<knome> i would look at setting the key some other way next
<Unit193> I just use the .ssh/config file, myself.
<len-1310> Interesting thing happened on the way to installing the xubuntu daily... the installer doesn't seem to see all my drives in the install xubuntu beside other OS
<Unit193> Host bazaar.launchpad.net IdentityFile  /home/unit193/keyfiles/launchpad.key User unit193
<knome> Unit193, and you didn't mention that before? :)
<jjfrv8> Where to now?
<knome> jjfrv8, does the bzr command work now?
<jjfrv8> WARNING: gnome-keyring:: couldn't connect to: /tmp/keyring-C9k5HO/pkcs11: No such file or directory
<knome> Unit193, go ahead and tell about that magic trick.
<Unit193> knome: Why would I think to do that?  I do everything backwards, what's the point of saying it? :P
<len-1310> Tried using gparted on the live session to preshrink ... couldn't do the pe shrink disk check. Rebooted to already installed studio 13.10 and it works.
<Unit193> so jjfrv8, I have http://paste.openstack.org/show/XAaW4Owt8KarkbdrRn1R in my ~/.ssh/config file to work with LP stuff, I'm not sure if I setup anything else too, or just that.
<jjfrv8> I'm looking for that...
<knome> jjfrv8, identityfile should be the id_rsa file you created earlier
<Unit193> knome: You good telling him how?
<knome> Unit193, sure
<jjfrv8> Unit193, not sure what I should do there. Paste that string somewhere in that file, or replace the contents?
<knome> jjfrv8, just a sec
<Unit193> ~/.ssh/config exists already?  That's SSH config, so if you already setup some stuff, could easily just add it.
<Unit193> Means I can do ssh zeta, or scp file zeta:pub<tab> :D
<knome> Unit193, pub or priv?
<jjfrv8> just two files there: ~/.ssh/id_rsa and id_rsa.pub
<Unit193> pub<tab> > public_html
<knome> Unit193, in .ssh/config
<Unit193> knome: Sorry, private key.
<knome> http://paste.openstack.org/show/37432/
<knome> jjfrv8, create ~/.ssh/config and put that in the file
<knome> Unit193, (correct?)
<Unit193> Should be good.
<Unit193> wget -O ~/.ssh/config http://paste.openstack.org/raw/37432/
<jjfrv8> Do you want me to run that command?
<knome> jjfrv8, if you already created the file, no need to :)
<knome> jjfrv8, now that you have that set up...
<knome> in the root directory, type:
<knome> bzr push lp:~jjfrv8-gmail/xubuntu-docs/branchname
<jjfrv8> knome, / or ~/bzr
<knome> jjfrv8, in the xubuntu-docs directory
<knome> jjfrv8, where you have the docs source
<jjfrv8> It's doing something :)
<jjfrv8> bzr: ERROR: Could not acquire lock "(local)": file:///home/jack/bzr/xubuntu-docs/
<knome> hmm..
<knome> Unit193, any idea?
<Unit193> bzr break-lock
<jjfrv8> No new revisions or tags to push. 
<jjfrv8> Worked?
<Unit193> I fixed it! ;D
<Unit193> :P
<Unit193> You commited something?
<Unit193> bzr log | less
<knome> woo!
<knome> https://code.launchpad.net/~jjfrv8-gmail
<knome> it's pushed whatsoever
<knome> jjfrv8, now do 'bzr commit' again with a commit message
<knome> jjfrv8, then 'bzr push' (should remember the last push path)
<jjfrv8> Okay
<Unit193> I use bzr commit -m "Message here", this may not be normal.
<knome> Unit193, it's fine, i'm too lazy to type -m and correct quotes
<knome> and isn't as easy to do multiple line commit messages with that
<jjfrv8> done?
<jjfrv8> "Pushed up to revision 35."
<knome> woo!
<knome> https://code.launchpad.net/~jjfrv8-gmail
<knome> aaaand https://code.launchpad.net/~jjfrv8-gmail/xubuntu-docs/command-file-test
<knome> now in that later page...
<knome> we get to the real thing!
<knome> there's a link "Propose for merging"
<jjfrv8> I see it
<knome> if you click that and fill in details, we get email telling jack wants to merge his fixes, and we're able to do easily!
<Unit193> See??  I know exactly what I'm doing!
<Unit193> :----D
<knome> Unit193, most definitely! thank you sir!
<Unit193> (Kidding, I'll troll on by somewhere else. :P )  Sure.
<knome> jjfrv8, you can also define the target branch, but in most cases, it's the default
<knome> jjfrv8, description for the change is ideally a list of changes you've done (can be a copy from commit messages)
<jjfrv8> Okay. I added a description and clicked Propose Merge.
<knome> great
<knome> now it created: https://code.launchpad.net/~jjfrv8-gmail/xubuntu-docs/command-file-test/+merge/164599
<knome> and now we can see the diff in that page too, so it's easy enough to review and merge from our side
<knome> jjfrv8, but at this point, you've done what you need to do
<jjfrv8> Okay. I'll have to save these logs so I can retrace the steps and play around with it to get familiar.
<knome> let's briefly go through the process again (you can skip several steps usually):
<Unit193> I have to fix more docs now, don't I?  :(
<knome> 1) bzr pull
<knome> this gets the latest sources
<knome> 2) do your changes to the files
<Unit193> jjfrv8: We're nice enough here to help if you run into more problems, just one of us doesn't speak English.  >_>
<jjfrv8> Who me?
<knome> 3) bzr add .  (if you added any new files, which you usually aren't doing)
<knome> 4) bzr commit
<knome> this commits the changes to your local repository (remember to use meaningful and accurate messages)
<knome> 5) bzr push
<knome> this pushes the changes to your own repository
<knome> 6) in launchpad, go click the "Propose for merging" link and fill in details
<knome> 7) you're done!
<knome> (as you can see, we used a lot of the time fixing/doing one-off things, so it's usually much much easier)
<knome> and as Unit193 said... feel free to ask if you have questions :) and i'm sure he referred to himself... such a humble guy
<jjfrv8> So all the login and whoami stuff should not need to be repeated?
<jjfrv8> Yes, knome, Unit193 , thanks for you patience. I hope I can repay it by saving you some work down the road.
<knome> jjfrv8, no. they are saved locally
<jjfrv8> Cool.
<knome> jjfrv8, no problem! i don't know if you noticed it, but i said you are a good candidate to the xubuntu-team in the future if you keep contributing
<Unit193> Yeah, I'm the native English speaker, but have problems with getting my meaning across. :P
<jjfrv8> knome, yes, saw that. I'm honored.
<Unit193> knome: Do I know him from something else?
<knome> jjfrv8, with this rate, i have no problems doing that rather sooner than later :)
<Unit193> jjfrv8: That's great!  You can replace me now. : D
<knome> Unit193, so that means you'll have more time for other things? awesome!
<Unit193> :P
<knome> i'm more or less afk now, but will check irc
<lderan> ok
<jjfrv8> Thanks again.
<knome> jjfrv8, have you thought of getting an irc 'screen'?
<jjfrv8> Not familiar with that.
<knome> jjfrv8, talk about that with us later. that would be helpful for you and us :)
<jjfrv8> Sure.
<Unit193> What client do you use?
<knome> that's because most of the development discussion happens in irc, and that way you wouldn't miss any messages
<knome> anyway, now afk :)
<jjfrv8> Unit193, XChat.
<knome> thanks jjfrv8 and do not hesitate to ask!
<knome> :)
<knome> -->
<Unit193> knome: He'd have to have a ZNC.
<knome> any solution is fine by me
<knome> ->
<knome> i'm back if you need me
<knome> jjfrv8, re: the merge itself, i would ask pleia2 for her opinion on the capitalization; we're referring to terminal emulators generally, so i'm not sure if the capitalization is needed/correct
<jjfrv8> Well it wasn't a real edit. I just had to pick something easy and quick.  I think you can discard the whole thing if you want.
<knome> okay :)
<jjfrv8> knome, but how would that work in real life?  Say you wanted to reject some percentage of the changes I proposed but keep others.  Would you just do that from your end?
<knome> most probably yes, or submit the merge request for fixing
<knome> if i did the latter, you'd get an email with my comments on how i would like you to fix it
<jjfrv8> OK.
<knome> that's why it's generally better to file one merge request for one set of changes
<knome> (not for each tiny change but a changeset that makes sense)
<jjfrv8> Got it.
<knome> that's one reason you might want to pull several copies of the docs
<knome> (in that case, every time you do bzr push, remember to add a new push location)
<knome> everything that's under your account is also refetchable, so it might be cleaner for you to simply pull the source again every time you work on a new thing
<knome> but that's totally up to you how you want to organize it
<knome> and oh, one more thing
<knome> once we've merged a branch or decided we don't need it anymore, or you decide you don't want to propose merging anyway, you can delete the branch from LP
<jjfrv8> Which is what I should have done in this case?
<knome> just go to, say, https://code.launchpad.net/~jjfrv8-gmail/xubuntu-docs/command-file-test and on the right hand side
<knome> doesn't matter, you're free to keep the branches
<knome> and it doesn't matter if you did the merge request
<knome> it's ok since i could communicate with you about it
<knome> and it's good that you tried to do it
<knome> since everything is revertable, you shouldn't worry about doing "stupid" things with branches
<knome> if you break it, you can either fix it or start again
<jjfrv8> Good to know because I'm sure there will be a lot of that in the beginning.
<knome> i would imagine the only place where it is easy to go wrong is the push location
<knome> but you'll notice if you do that; if you push to the wrong location, you won't be able to make a merge request
<knome> and since you don't have push permissions to lp:xubuntu-docs, you can't really mess anything up
<Unit193> I normally put everything in +junk.
<knome> Unit193, you're not able to do merge requests from there, are you?
<knome> at least that hasn't been working for me at time
<knome> *times
<jjfrv8> Okay. I'm looking over the launchpad pages to get oriented. It's all pretty unfamiliar right now.
<knome> well again, feel free to ask
<knome> i rather guide you through things than leave you in the darkness wondering about things
<Unit193> Think not, but not normally looking to.
<knome> Unit193, mhm. for ubuntu packages you need to push to lp:~user/ubuntu/package/branchname...
<knome> Unit193, go figure that out if you don't know you need to do that...
<Unit193> It'll show up on the code page, and I don't want that. :P
<knome> heh
<knome> there are definitely situations when you don't want that. but when you want to merge something...
 * Unit193 thinks some people would call him anti-open source, he dosen't think he is. :P
<knome> one could say you are if you didn't push back to launchpad.
<Unit193> To launchpad precisely? ;)  (Anyway, I moved to offtopic, because I'm offtopic.)
<jjfrv8> knome, I've gotta go but I'll start playing around with the process to familiarize myself and ping you with questions.
<jjfrv8> first one is: objective is to compare current R to docs to early builds of S to see how they match up?
<phillw> knome: and every one else (!), regarding Lubuntu Software Centre's name. Julien has no issues (I knew he would not) in renaming it to Light Software Centre if either xubuntu or ubuntu-studio wish to make use of it, or for that matter any other team :)
<knome> phillw, good news
<phillw> I will continue to be nice to Jorg so we have a progammer looking after it :)
<knome> yup
<knome> FYI everybody, i'll be off tomorrow and monday
<knome> will be evacuating to the summer cottage :)
<knome> sauna + other nice things
<phillw> as it is really a hook into apt, now the bug that affected lubuntu has been resolved; it is more a case of seeing what other minor bugs need resolving.
<knome> yup
<knome> have you prepared a testcase for that?
<phillw> knome: enjoy your break.. I went AFK last weekend, read some books that were long overdue to be read :D
<knome> thanks, will do
<knome> i'm also planning to take even more time off later
<phillw> I'll write up a manual test case once Julien is happy with the patch and it is confirmed as okay in Saucy which would allow an SRU to be raised.
<knome> great
<phillw> he just cannot devote time to the debugging / maintenance of it, but he more than happy to sponsor working patches etc.
<knome> same with most people
<phillw> indeed, I do appreciate that the MOTU's / devs on each of the flavours are always running at 100% of their available time.
<phillw> my being a release manager for lubuntu has lessened that part of Julien's work-load.
<knome> i understand
<phillw> the 'fun' with GTK is causing some fun as the devs make QT versions, how is the affecting xubuntu?
<phillw> s/the/this/
<knome> we mostly have problems with things not supporting GTK2 any more and some xfce stuff being in GTK2 only
<phillw> pcman has now got a version of pcmanfm in QT and I understand other of the lxde components are being cross developed over to QT. It was for this reason, I think, that Julien did not want to issue a 13.10 of Lubuntu. The news from Tech Board dropping the maintenance level to 9 months for DE's was an unexpected spoke in the works :/
<phillw> But, hey, these things happen :P
<knome> lubuntu is free to keep the support up to 18 months though
<knome> it's just that the core won't be supported for more than 9 months
<phillw> knome: we'd lose things like browser support which is not acceptable. 13.10 may just be a bit 'rough around the edges'. It will be stable, as it is built on 'core' stuff. Just not all the lxde apps may be without bugs. The devs are trying to cross develop in GTK3 and QT at the same time... this is stretching us pretty thin !
<knome> i understand
<phillw> with what is happening with xcfe and GTK, I'm sure you guys are well aware of the problems!
<knome> unfortunately :)
<phillw> knome: I'm not sure if this is of help to xubuntu, but pcman has a blog on GTK / QT stuff at http://blog.lxde.org/
<phillw> damn, he's good!
<knome> who is?
<phillw> pcman :) not only a skilled surgeon but darn good dev who is happy to document up things and not just go "I converted this".
<knome> heh
<phillw> the GTK part of pcmanfm (and possibly other stuff) is now being looked after by Â andriy
<phillw> I can forward you the email thread on what is going on re: GTK3 / Qt if you wish
<knome> i think i've seen enough of it for npw
<knome> *now
<phillw> okies :)
<ochosi> knome: hf@cottage then
<knome> ochosi, will do :)
<ochosi> knome: btw, who said pavucontrol was different in 13.10?
<ochosi> cause i just looked and it's simply not there yet: http://packages.ubuntu.com/search?keywords=pavucontrol&searchon=names&suite=saucy&section=all
<len-x> me but not sure hwen the change happened
<ochosi> hm, strange
<Unit193> !info pavucontrol saucy
<ubottu> 'saucy' is not a valid distribution: extras, kubuntu-backports, kubuntu-experimental, kubuntu-updates, lucid, lucid-backports, lucid-proposed, medibuntu, partner, precise, precise-backports, precise-proposed, quantal, quantal-backports, quantal-proposed, raring, raring-backports, raring-proposed, stable, testing, unstable
<ochosi> ubottu fail :)
<len-x> It could have been last version when version 2.1 (I think) of PA was released
<len-x> In other words it may be a difference in PA and not pavucontrol.
<ochosi> the pavucontrol website says that 2.0 has been released in march
<ochosi> that would've been early enough for R, if anyone cared
<len-x> We would have.
<len-x> (Studio)
<ochosi> (R still has 1.0)
<len-x> We had other issues
<ochosi> so anyway, checking the gitlog, there are no real changes that justify a 2.0 release
<len-x> This one doesn't have an about... The changes may have been in pa and not the controler
<len-x> pavucontrol would expose whatever inputs or outputs it can find and so if pa doesn't expose the application outputs pavucontrol wouldn't show them.
<len-x> pavucontrol is still 1.0 in 13.10.
<len-x> ochosi, do you know much about the menus/settings manager?
<ochosi> hm, so wait, pavucontrol doesn't look different in 13.10 then?
<ochosi> i mean the tabs and everything are still the sameÃ
<ochosi> what menus/settings-man are you referring to exactly?
<len-x> Yes. the only difference is the options available in the dropdown chooser for  in/outputs.
<ochosi> ok
<len-x> xubuntu has some apps in the settings manager that would seem to be expected in the system menu.
<ochosi> right
<ochosi> that depends on what the .desktop file has set as categories
<ochosi> you can change that e.g. with menulibre quite easily
<len-x> gparted (on live), software updater, install xubuntu.
<ochosi> either, this is not the real git repo of pavucontrol or the ppl releasing v2.0 are morons: http://git.0pointer.de/?p=pavucontrol.git
<len-x> Ok, no I am not going to worry about that :)
<ochosi> i'd say file a bugreport about that and we can discuss it
<ochosi> changing that should be easy
<len-x> pavucontrol is v1.0 pulseaudio is 2.*
<len-x> I am only asking because ubuntustudio is thinking of building our xfce desktop directly on the xubuntu-desktop meta
<ochosi> this suggests otherwise: http://freedesktop.org/software/pulseaudio/pavucontrol/
<len-x> I am trying to decide how hard that would be
<len-x> Your right. I wonder where we had pa 2 from.
<ochosi> depends on what you really wanna override from xubuntu i guess
<len-x> synaptic says 1:3.0 does that mean version 1 or version 3.0?
<ochosi> not sure :)
<len-x> (for pulse)
<Unit193> 1: means someone goofed in the packaging at one point, 3.0 is right.
<Unit193> Epoch is the real term.
<ochosi> righty
<len-x> Ya I thought so the PA mailing list is talking about preparing v4
<len-x> So PA is 3.0 and pavucontrol is 1.0
<ochosi> in ubuntu
<ochosi> but in fact pavucontrol is 2.0
<len-x> Ya, also in xubunu
<len-x> I am running todays daily.
<len-x> synaptic lists the package installed as 1.0-1
<ochosi> yeah, according to git there have been no new commits since 1.0
<ochosi> len-x: so here's the up-to-date git-repo of pavucontrol: http://cgit.freedesktop.org/pulseaudio/pavucontrol/log/
<len-x> They must do rock and roll... support volumes up to 11...
<ochosi> anyway, trying to compile that now...
<ochosi> hmpf
<ochosi> devicewidget.cc: In member function âvoid DeviceWidget::onOffsetChange()â:
<ochosi> devicewidget.cc:150:70: error: âpa_context_set_port_latency_offsetâ was not declared in this scope
<ochosi> great
<len-x> pavucontrol talks to pa via dbus?
<len-x> So a replacement just has to know what pa expects via dbus
<ochosi> meh, v2.0 has the same build error :(
<bluesabre> ochosi, did you try a apt-get build-dep pavucontrol
<ochosi> bluesabre: ofc
<ochosi> and hi ;)
<bluesabre> I managed to build 0.2 the other day
<bluesabre> I mean 2.0
<ochosi> hm, grmbpf
<ochosi> i need to upgrade to raring i suppose
<ochosi> and i'd even do that here and now, but the stupid update-manager only shows "upgrade" stuff when you installed all updates
<bluesabre> change all your apt from quantal to raring and then dist-upgrade?
<ochosi> yeah, maybe i'll just do it the old way
<knome> we've got meetingology output fixed \o/
<knome> brb
<lderan> \o/
<ochosi> congrats!
<Unit193> lderan: Thanks!
<lderan> :D
#xubuntu-devel 2013-05-19
<ochosi> wow, now that i finally upgraded to raring, appfinder has become totally useless. it has an extreme lag at startup
<elfy> ochosi: it's fine here - always has been
<Noskcaj> compare specs, we might find the problem
<elfy> paper and pen here :p
<Noskcaj> lol, i mean PC
<elfy> i know @)
<ochosi> na, i think it's totally spec-unrelated
<ochosi> it's upgrade-related
<Noskcaj> ochosi, sounds right, my app finder works fine
<elfy> could well be, this is a testing raring still being used 
<ochosi> i think i'll go for a clean install after all
<ochosi> just don't feel like hunting down problems like that one
<elfy> I can understand that :)
<ochosi> oh, btw, wrt to pavucontrol i'm not sure anymore i really wanna touch it :)
<ochosi> main issue is that it's in c++ and glade
<ochosi> that's not really my favorite combination
<ochosi> (i had assumed it was c and glade)
<elfy> eyes glazing over ... 
<ochosi> i can do the mockups and everything, but i fear working my way into c++ might be a waste of time
<elfy> ser lderan loose on it - he's looking for something to work on :)
<elfy> s/set
<ochosi> sounds like a plan :Ã¼
<ochosi> :p
<elfy> I found him one - but it's only small :D 
<elfy> http://lderan.co.uk/settings-manager.png
<ochosi> elfy: what's that?
<ochosi> you mean he should check what goes into settings-man and what actually should remain in the menu?
<ochosi> stuff like kick gparted back to system > ?
<elfy> no - I think having things like gparted in there is a good call - perhaps synaptic should do the same
<elfy> BUT the description should change as it's no longer customise your desktop :)
<elfy> little thing to be sure - but that's what big things are made of 
<ochosi> why is it not customize your desktop anymore?
<elfy> ok - let me tell you a story - then you tell me how I customised my desktop :)
<ochosi> k
<elfy> so - I had a partition with fedora on it that was never booted, just sitting there taking up space, so I installed gparted to get rid of it, that gets put in the settings manager now, I start gparted - remove the fedora partition and leave it unallocated then turn of gparted again
<elfy> there you go :) no desktop customisation that I can see ... 
<ochosi> if you follow that through, then "customize your OS" is also not enough
<elfy> maybe 'system settings and customisation' or something
<ochosi> it's already called settings manager
<elfy> or even no description at all 
<elfy> yea - menu is setting manager - when you open it title is settings
<ochosi> so i'd rather go for "customize your desktop and system", but really, i don't see the need to change that string tbh ;)
<elfy> but it's not customise your desktop anymore - not an enormous issue - more one of 'polish' 
<elfy> and if 13.04 is the time to 'polish' prior to the next lts ... ;)
<ochosi> well mostly it is still your desktop
<ochosi> gparted is one of those examples where someone from US recently asked whether we can put that back in the system-category of the menu
<elfy> yea - but not customise only - as I said it's not important and lderan was looking for something to work on 
<ochosi> :)
<elfy> well - perhaps it's that thta needs to be looked at instead 
<elfy> I'd argue that arandr should be in system menu 
<ochosi> that's confusing if we keep the display-dialog in the settings-manager
<elfy> or that all system things should go there 
<elfy> perhaps wrong choice to argue - I'd argue that if gparted is in there why isn't synaptic 
<ochosi> yeah, we can discuss that
<elfy> I'll bring it up at a meeting then 
<ochosi> i think solely focussing on the title is narrowing down the issue too much
<ochosi> that feels like we've already decided that it's gonna stay as is
<elfy> possibly - I dodn't remember discussion about gparted going there so I suspect before my time 
<ochosi> i think we discussed it at some point, but not very thoroughly iirc
<elfy> just appears from here to be half a job done 
<ochosi> thing is, this change should go upstream
<ochosi> otherwise we have to do separate translations for this single string in launchpad
<elfy> did adding gparted upstream go upstream then?
<ochosi> (which would probably be worse than keeping what we have)
<ochosi> sry, i didn't understand that sentence :)
<elfy> I'd not want to go making a lot of hard work for us for little gain
<ochosi> yeah
<ochosi> what did you mean with "adding gparted upstream go upstream" ?
<elfy> I meant if the description string needs to go upstream did the adding gparted go upstream or was it in a xubuntu-settings 
<elfy> in fact I think I remember xubuntu settings or something changing fpor gparted 
<elfy> nvm
<ochosi> ok, wrt what goes in settings: the categories of the .desktop file have to be modified for that
<ochosi> it's easy to change
<ochosi> basically submit a bugreport to gparted about it
<elfy> ok - perhaps I'll do that then instead, in which case the description will be right again :)
<ochosi> yeah, i'd say let's talk about it at a meeting and decide what to do about those things
<elfy> k - makes sense 
<elfy> I'll wait for knome to set dates and add it to agenda 
<ochosi> update-manager is a similar candidate for discussion
<elfy> is it
<ochosi> i think so :)
<elfy> oh here we go - 3 young girls awake now :|
<ochosi> even the fact that we don't agree on that one shows that there's a need for discussion ;)
<ochosi> oh right, hf then!
<elfy> indeed :)
<elfy> they'll not like me ochosi - I had dad head on at 2am 
<ochosi> hehe
<elfy> I'd say what I said but the channel's logged :p
<elfy> cool - anyway - so we know that we need to chat the issue over at some point - especially if you've been asked about putting gparted back
<ochosi> yup
<len-1310> ochosi, WRT settings manager, I have been of two minds. I have fixed studio's layout already for a separate settings and system, so xubuntu is welcome to look at our code.
<len-1310> however, while I was doing it, I also had the thought that is I had access to all the strings, I might calling control center or something and just add all of the system stuff there.
<len-1310> (it's too early lots of typos)
<len-1310> ochosi, WRT ARandR, I would prefer to see Display include monitor placement and not need Arandr at all.
<len-1310> As it sits now, one has to use xrandr, arandr or whatever to place the display where it is wanted and then run display in setting to save it so it stays over boots.
<len-1310> Having two display setting apps looks bad.
<phillw> len-1310: lubuntu has http://wiki.lxde.org/en/LXRandR it may be worth you looking at it?
<len-1310> phillw, the question is, does it save the settings from one session to another. or does the user have to reset? I need something integrated in the xfce window manager.
<phillw> len-1310: in theory, yes. I've never used it with a reboot however. http://askubuntu.com/questions/259785/where-does-lxrandr-save-its-display-configurations
<phillw> I've only used it to hook up a projector when giving a session at an F/OSS meeting :)
<len-1310> right now I have to run the xfce display settings to save it
<len-1310> A lot of Studio users have two monitors on their desk and want them side by side.
<phillw> len-1310: the settings should be at ~/.config/autostart/lxrandr-autostart.desktop according to the askubuntu posting?
<len-1310> So that would be yet another binary to run...
<len-1310> Anyway. I will look at it.
<len-1310> Arandr may be able to run that way too.
<phillw> it is read on startup, and should be created / modified if you save a configuration.
<len-1310> I would prefer something that change the xfce settings file :)
<phillw> len-1310: have a look at the code, it is GPL afterall :)
<len-1310>  I can edit it by hand so it is doable.
<len-1310> I am also wondering if I would have to put a delay in there so that xfce sets things however and then whatever else setts it right.
 * len-1310 needs to learn to code
<phillw> lubuntu are quite happy to take something that is close to what we need and then tweaking it :)
<len-1310> I'll have to install it and play.
<phillw> if it's in python, we've recently got a competent python programmer who may be prepared to help out :)
<phillw> he fixed LSC which may be getting a re-name :)
<len-1310> Is it fast than USC? (well I guess just about anything would be)
<phillw> len-1310: it is far less resource hungry, a lower spec lubuntu capable machine would shuuder to a halt if it tried to run USC, that is why it was created :)
<len-1310> My machine does that.
<phillw> if you install it onto xubuntu, it installs fine. The bug was when it was added during the install the lubuntu :D
<len-1310> We call USC with menu specific app lists
<len-1310> So in our office menu we have an option that open USC with just office apps
<len-1310> (Studio comes with no office apps)
<phillw> well, LSC has a maintainer now, which was a concern of k-nome for it to be considerred for inclusion in xubuntu / ubuntu-studio. If it is wanted, then Julien (our head of Dev) is okay for it to be renamed from Lubuntu Software Center to Light Software Center.
<len-1310> phillw, thank you for the time and info, I need to get going
<phillw> okies. tc
<len-1310> I will look at LSC later tonight
<ochosi> len-1310: the new display dialog already includes that, it just hasn't been shipped yet (it's in the xfce4.12 ppa if you wanna test it)
<bluesabre> ochosi, we should get some testers for whats in the settings manager git-master (so we can have display hot-plugging)
<ochosi> definitely
<ochosi> in fact jeromeg recently emailed me asking about the status of the primary branch
<ochosi> i had to tell him it was kinda broken beyond repair
<phillw> bluesabre: ochosi is there any reason why lxde and xcfe cannot work on a GUI for RandR ? 
<GridCube> theres arandr alredy isnt it?
<ochosi> phillw: not sure you read it, but i mentioned that we already worked on making xfce's display dialog work with multiple displays
<ochosi> and it works quite well in fact
<phillw> ochosi: I am new to this area :) arandr was considered to be too high on resources. Do please remember that xubuntu is mid-spec release now and lubuntu are the ones running on lowest machine specs. We use xcfe applications in lubuntu, it seems only fair for me to point out lxde ones that may help xubuntu :D
<ochosi> sure, i'm totally for sharing stuff with lubuntu or other distros
<ochosi> but in this case i think we have it covered
<ochosi> bbl
<phillw> hey, if you have a more functional implementation, lubuntu will possibly use it :) There is no point in our teams dedicating precious dev time to sorting out a similar requirement across the flavours.
<Len-nb> ochosi, It is great to hear that the new display applet does position too. I will be glad to drop arandr. It works ok but doesn't save in a way that is easy for the newby to automate.
<Len-nb> phillw, Looking at lxrandr. Has it changed since 13.04? There is no monitor positioning that I can see.
<phillw> Len-nb: (19:07:37) ochosi: phillw: not sure you read it, but i mentioned that we already worked on making xfce's display dialog work with multiple displays
<Len-nb> I can see two monitors, but I can only change resolution or vrate
<Len-nb> Ya, I should probably wait. I was just checking to see where it was.
<phillw> It is a case where it would be better for xubuntu and lubuntu to work on a solution?
<Len-nb> xfsettingsd is the key
<Len-nb> I think that is what saves and restores these settings, Am I correct?
<phillw> Len-nb: have a chat with ochosi when he gets back.
<Len-nb> LSC looks good.
<phillw> Len-nb: Let us see if xubuntu / ubuntu-studio wish to use it. 
<Unit193> Xubuntu may if it supports the pay for applications, otherwise that's why USC is still higher.
<Len-nb> If I can get it to take search terms on the command line. I may use it in studio
<Unit193> Len-nb: What's wrong with  apt-cache search  ? ;)
<Len-nb> It is much faster than USC
<phillw> Len-nb: can it not do that?
<Len-nb> Unit193, we use menu items with USC with an apps list that relates to the menu it sits in
<Len-nb> I have yet to try.
<Len-nb> I am just looking at it now.
<Unit193> Len-nb: Yeah, I read that, interesting.
<phillw> Len-nb: do please report back :)
<Len-nb> Ya, will do.
<phillw> Unit193: as the patch for LSC has been produced, what are your thoughts of it being a lower resourced version of USC?
<Unit193> As far as I know, it doesn't support applications you buy.
<phillw> Unit193: no, I m pretty sure that would have to be added; I'm still in the 'gray' area of buying stuff. 
<Unit193> It's a major feature of USC.
<phillw> Unit193: and USC kills lower resource machines.... As to where to call it for xubuntu / ubuntu-studio, that is their team call. USC is far too resource hungry for lubuntu.
<Unit193> Yes, and since we're in #xubuntu-devel, I'm talking about Xubuntu. :P
<phillw> Unit193: 17:14:26) phillw: len-1310: it is far less resource hungry, a lower spec lubuntu capable machine would shuuder to a halt if it tried to run USC, that is why it was created :)
<phillw> (17:15:11) phillw: if you install it onto xubuntu, it installs fine. The bug was when it was added during the install the lubuntu :D
<phillw> (17:15:11) len-1310: My machine does that.
<phillw> Unit193: that is why I suggested using LSC :)
<Len-nb> LSC ignores the coomandline as of 0.0.5  even --help
<phillw> Len-nb: May I me really cheeky and ask why a n00b would use the command line for help? They would already be using apt or synaptic (for gui)? I am really interested in your comments, as the the testers always scream "use CLI"... We do, however have to have a s
<phillw> system for n00bs.
<Len-nb> phillw, I should be testing on a 13.10 system
<Len-nb> the reason for cli is in my custom desktop files
<phillw> Len-nb: try it on a VM
<Len-nb> I have 13.10 on the other machine. but I am acting as medical dummy for my wife to pracice on
<Unit193> Hah, been there, done that... Have fun!  What's she studying for?
<Len-nb> LPN
<Unit193> Aha.
<Len-nb> This machine is hard to boot, I have to terminate the vga plug or I get no video. I can see the GRUB screen except on an external monitor... so this is not a good testing machine.\
<Len-nb> *can't
<Unit193> I know what you mean, I have problems with releases and released drivers from upstream, so hard to tell what's broken.
<len-1310> Bios in this case. Known problem...
<len-1310> Acer netbook. The well known fix for the early model doesn't work on mine.
<Unit193> Bleh, and no BIOS update I'd guess either...
<len-1310> I should look some more, but there are so many other things to do :)
<len-1310> The version of LSC in 13.10 is still only 0.0.5
#xubuntu-devel 2014-05-12
<ochosi> bluesabre: small reminder, xfpm PPA ;)
<ochosi> ali1234: since you seem to know a bit about the xfwm4 compositor, could it actually do a fade-to-black blanking the screen smoothly based on X11's screensaver settings? (or is the compositor the wrong place to implement this?)
<bluesabre> ochosi: poke
<knome> bluesabre, around?
<bluesabre> knome: yes
<knome> good
<knome> tell me
<knome> what do i need to remove to get rid of the black screen problem
<knome> i don't mind losing features
<knome> as long as the laptop doesn't hang
<bluesabre> light-locker, I believe
<knome> wasn't it an xfpm bug?
<bluesabre> I think its a bit of both
<knome> aha...
<bluesabre> ochosi also has a fix 
<bluesabre> that I am going to upload
<knome> i'll need to look at it then
<knome> aha
<knome> when?????
<knome> :P
<bluesabre> if I knew where the code was
<knome> today? :P
<knome> lol
<bluesabre> ochosi: poke poke
<knome> okay..
<knome> i'm @ client
<knome> installing 14.04 \o/
<bluesabre> ah
<bluesabre> awesome
<knome> after whining about mac/win ;)
<knome> would removing xfpm potentially fix it?
<knome> and were *all* laptop users affected
<knome> or only some?
<bluesabre> only some
<knome> okay...
<knome> :|
<bluesabre> it doesnnt affect me
<knome> common nominator?
<knome> it's an old acer travelmate
<bluesabre> hard to say
<bluesabre> my laptop is brand new and a gaming machine
<bluesabre> so if its a race condition, I miss it
<knome> heh
<knome> okat
<knome> okay
<knome> so it happens when closing the lid?
<knome> and just doesn't return
<bluesabre> from what I understand, yeah
<knome> oki
<knome> i'll test it
<bluesabre> ok
<knome> my next shot at fixing it is in ~7 weeks
<knome> and i hope the final fix is in then
<bluesabre> that would be ideal
<knome> absolutely
<knome> i hope ochosi's fix fixes it for good
<bluesabre> me too
<brainwash> isn't it eric's fix?
<brainwash> https://github.com/EricKoegel/xfce4-power-manager/branches
<brainwash> bluesabre: ^
<bluesabre> which one?
<brainwash> logind-inhibit
<bluesabre> drat
<bluesabre> I'll have to finish this later, there is some extra stuff between the release in xubuntu and this patch
 * bluesabre hoped to drop the files in and use quilt
<ochosi> bluesabre: this is the patch: https://github.com/EricKoegel/xfce4-power-manager/commit/21b8e5abf4e5f93c28cb964b4618b9b509780951
<ochosi> (again :))
<ochosi> brainwash: the logind-inhibit branch is the general patch, i'm not sure i'd wanna use that for xubuntu
<ochosi> as it is longer and hence harder to review/approve
<ochosi> the short (hackier) one fits xubuntu more directly, hence it won't go upstream
<ochosi> but with the amount of patches we carry in xfpm in 14.04, that isn't a problem at all
<brainwash> ochosi: woot
<brainwash> but this hack appears to be incomplete
<ochosi> in what way?
<brainwash> or rather meh
<ochosi> it's fine, it gets the job done
<ochosi> it's basically the same as the other, longer/better patch, but without the need to modify another xfconf setting in lls
<ochosi> and i want the dumb/simple one tested first, because there's no chance ppl could mess something up with said xfconf setting
<brainwash> does it work with xscreensaver?
<ochosi> that's of secondary concern to the testing i want now
<brainwash> any plans for a staging PPA?
<brainwash> basically a PPA which provides new stable versions for trusty
<brainwash> like xfce4-appfinder, version 4.11 did not make it into trusty
<sidi-valencia> brainwash, how many PPAs do you guys have?
<brainwash> I don't know
<brainwash> the staging one would be only used for "stable" releases
<brainwash> so basically sync from debian
<brainwash> the user could continue using his ubuntu LTS release
<brainwash> but with up-to-date xfce/xubuntu components
<bluesabre> brainwash: generally, we would use the xfce-4.12 ppa for that
<bluesabre> ochosi: thanks
<bluesabre> working on the package now
<ochosi> thanks bluesabre 
<ochosi> i gotta hit the sack now
<ochosi> busy day tomorrow
<bluesabre> alrighty, have fun
<ochosi> ty
<bluesabre> before you go
<ochosi> if the small patch works, we should test the bigger one
<bluesabre> was there something for light-locker too?
<Unit193> Can we (=not me) nuke https://launchpad.net/~xubuntu-dev/+archive/ppa ?   All for lucid.
<ochosi> (at least that's my opinion)
<bluesabre> I mean
<bluesabre> lls
<ochosi> bluesabre: yeah, lls has to enable "--locck-on-suspend"
<bluesabre> Unit193: yeah, probably a good idea
<ochosi> so ll handles that
<ochosi> cause ll listens to logind
<ochosi> and will hence do the right thing
<bluesabre> got it
<ochosi> but that can't go straight to trunk
<ochosi> the actual solution will have to be a bit more complex...
<ochosi> but if this works, then at least we have a direction
<Unit193> bluesabre: Quantal is EOL'd too, so any repo that has quantal packages can have those packages removed.
<bluesabre> cool, good to know
<ochosi> (cause as brainwash cunningly mentioned before, we need something that also works for xscreensaver, which doesn't listen to logind)
<Unit193> (Saucy still has 66 days.)
<ochosi> now off to bed...
<ochosi> night everyone!
<bluesabre> night ochosi
<bluesabre> thoughts on having a ~xubuntu-dev/testing ppa where we test packages?
<Unit193> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/xscreensaver/+bug/1283459 took a while.
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1283459 in xscreensaver (Ubuntu) "Please merge xscreensaver (5.26-1) from Debian unstable" [Wishlist,Incomplete]
<Unit193> bluesabre: That was pretty much the idea, no?
<bluesabre> thought so, wanted to verify since it was never finalized
<Unit193> ochosi thought it might be nice to have an /updates and /new-packages (or something) so if you only want to test the new packages rather than any updates that might happen, you could (unless I read wrong, my brain stops working in the heat/humidity.)
<bluesabre> hm
<bluesabre> not an admin of ~xubuntu-dev
<bluesabre> so, I suppose we can start using xubuntu-dev/ppa again
<bluesabre> I can upload packages, cannot create new PPAs
<bluesabre> and I can go ahead and clean up that ppa removing all the lucid packages
<bluesabre> thoughts Unit193?
<Unit193> Yeah, micahg would have to create it.  Remember that I'm not the XPL or one of the devs, but doesn't sound like a bad idea, can always copy the packages.
<Unit193> bluesabre: Do you use backportpackage?
<bluesabre> yeah, I know
<bluesabre> nope, never used that
<bluesabre> sounds like a handy tool
<Unit193> https://launchpad.net/~unit193/+archive/xfce I use it so I can upload to trusty+utopic (or more) with the "same version"
<bluesabre> ah
<bluesabre> I replace the version and debuild again
<Unit193> (Well, that's a patched backportpackage, but don't tell anyone...)
<bluesabre> s/version/release
<Unit193> This also makes it clear it's the same version, but for different releases.
<bluesabre> right
<Unit193> LP doesn't like to take the same version for more than one release, last I knew.
<bluesabre> oh, I guess I do use different versions
<Unit193> Up to you, you're the dev. ;)
<bluesabre> :)
<Unit193> (Backportpackage normally makes it something like 2:1.6.3-2~ubuntu13.10.1~ppa)
<bluesabre> xfce4-power-manager_1.2.0-3~trusty~ppa1
<bluesabre> :)
<bluesabre> crap, that's "older" than the ubuntu one
<Unit193> (Doesn't matter here, but when it gets closer to 'z', the alphabet will wrap back to a, which is 'older' than 'z')
<bluesabre> yay
<Unit193> https://launchpad.net/~xubuntu-dev/+archive/xfce-4.10/+delete-packages?field.name_filter=&field.status_filter=&field.series_filter=quantal - https://launchpad.net/~xubuntu-dev/+archive/xfce-4.12/+delete-packages?field.name_filter=&field.status_filter=&field.series_filter=quantal ?
<bluesabre> probably should do that
<bluesabre> https://launchpad.net/~xubuntu-dev/+archive/ppa?field.series_filter=trusty
<bluesabre> ochosi: both packages uploaded ^
<bluesabre> ah
<bluesabre> technically, quantal has 4 days
<bluesabre> I'll do ppa cleanup this weekend
<Unit193> Oh it does?  Seems distro-info-data is a bit off, but that's expected I suppose.  Sure, thanks.
#xubuntu-devel 2014-05-13
<bluesabre> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Releases
<bluesabre> :)
<Unit193> distro-info -c --supported --days=eol  is easier. :P
<bluesabre> neat
<bluesabre> didn't know that command
<bluesabre> you should file a bug report
<bluesabre> ;)
<Unit193> Mhmm, I'll get right on that.
<Unit193> 12.10,Quantal Quetzal,quantal,2012-04-26,2012-10-18,2014-04-18  well that's weird.
<bluesabre> wowz
<bluesabre> a
<bluesabre> unity runs okay in virtualbox
<bluesabre> when it switches to unity-locker
<bluesabre> then it comes to a horrible crawl
<bluesabre> I thought my vm was dead
<Unit193> bluesabre: How is it atop mir?
<bluesabre> haven't tried it with mir yet
<bluesabre> probably not good, since I don't think vbox gfx drivers support mir yet
<Unit193> I'd try it, tried wayland, but no intention to try unity. :P
<Unit193> Right, they don't.
<bluesabre> personally I think mir might end up being a better solution
<bluesabre> primarily because wayland is being developed alongside gnome
<bluesabre> but, nobody can really say at this point
<bluesabre> my favorite commit this month. http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~menulibre-dev/menulibre/master/revision/207
<ochosi> bluesabre: that works!
<ochosi> hey elfy 
<elfy> hi ochosi 
<ochosi> have time for a quick test?
<ochosi> lid-close bug
<elfy> not atm - sorry - too early lol
<ochosi> hehe, ok
<elfy> laptop's in little one's room - she's not awake yet 
<ochosi> i'm writing down the testcase now anyway
<elfy> and I'm waking up still :)
<ochosi> me too :)
<ochosi> but as i gotta work the rest of the day, i wanted to get something done here too
<elfy> ok cool - link it here - then as soon as I can I'll do it
<elfy> yep understood
<ochosi> elfy: http://dpaste.com/2X51WV1/
<ochosi> as i'm the only one who tested this successfully so far, i wanted to wait at least until you tested it before we post that in the bugreport
<ochosi> however, if it works for you, you could just copy-paste it there
<elfy> yep - bookmarked
<ochosi> (with a nice "hello everyone, we finally have a patch" intro)
<elfy> :p
<ochosi> hf everyone, bbl
<elfy> bluesabre: nice to be kept in the loop over what needs testing and when
<elfy> communication here is awesome
<ochosi> elfy: just a quick question, have you been able to test the lid-fix?
<ochosi> i asked a friend and it worked fine, so i at least have 3 positive test-results for it now (including the two ppl who worked on the patch)
<elfy> ochosi: I've got in properly from work now - will check
<slickymasterWork> elfy, do you have a few minutes to discuss MenuLibre testcase?
<elfy> in a bit
<slickymasterWork> I'll wait
<elfy> though tbh I'm grrrrr about menulibre testing atm
<slickymasterWork> there's something that IMO is wrong in that test
<elfy> well - I ran through it yesterday - it all works 
<slickymasterWork> did you manage to be sucessfully with steps 19-20?
<elfy> whatever steps 19-20 are I must have as it all worked
<slickymasterWork> elfy,  19 - In Menu Editor - hover over launcher title and click and 20 - Enter new name for launcher and press enter
<elfy> yep
<elfy> worked 
<slickymasterWork> well, that's strange because I'm unable to achieve it in two distinct boxes
<slickymasterWork> one with today's daily and another fully updated that been being upgraded since 12.04
<elfy> I've just done it twice here
<slickymasterWork> what is the menulibre installed version you have?
<elfy> 2.0.3
<qwebirc591238> elfy I have 2.0.3-1 installed
<elfy> ochosi: confirm that ppa works here - also it stops it rebooting with a really dim screen.
<elfy> so that's \o/ from me
<elfy> ochosi: posted in bug with the details - added ppa-purge command too
<slickymasterWork> sorry elfy 
<elfy> :)
<slickymasterWork> lost connectivity (once again)
<elfy> yep
<slickymasterWork> can you tell me once once again what's installed version?
<elfy> 2.0.3
<slickymasterWork> strange, that's mine's also
<slickymasterWork> on both boxes
<elfy> at least that what it reports
<slickymasterWork> mine are both 2.0.3-1
<slickymasterWork> going to have to poke around to figure it out
<elfy> you can do it 2 ways - hover over title, click - write - enter or click the button to the right of the title box
<slickymasterWork> tried both ways, no dice
<elfy> uh oh
<elfy> now what's up 
 * elfy waits for upgrade to finish
<elfy> ii  menulibre      2.0.3-1
<slickymasterWork> those are also mine's
<elfy> I recorded me doing it - any idea where I could post that for you to get?
<slickymasterWork> nah, nevermind
<slickymasterWork> I'll reinstall it
<elfy> https://www.dropbox.com/s/j31ys0zrmefxu57/out.ogv
<elfy> !team 
<ubottu> bluesabre, elfy, GridCube, jjfrv8, knome, lderan, micahg, mr_pouit, Noskcaj, ochosi, pleia2, skellat, slickymaster, Unit193
<elfy> assistive tech is currently part of a testcase for the settings manager for some reason - propose to remove that - question is do we need to test that anyway - we'd not be able to do anything anyway if there is a problem I guess
<lderan> aye
<slickymasterWork> elfy, thanks for that link, but I ended up reinstalling it and now it's working
<slickymasterWork> no clue what could have been the culprit
<GridCube> i have no idea elfy, but i guess that if we can not do anything about something we better don't make ourselfs responsible of that
<elfy> slickymasterWork: ok - cheers
<elfy> anyone with access to utopic atm - alt+f2 - xfce4-term - does terminal show in the list 
<elfy> GridCube: that's my thinking - we can always create a test and make it optional 
<elfy> but I think (need to check) that ubuntu tests this stuff with autopilot 
<pleia2> GridCube: +1
<elfy> o/ pleia2 
<pleia2> g'day elfy 
<slickymasterWork> elfy: alt+f2 and xfce4-term does show up in the list
<slickymasterWork> hi pleia2 
<elfy> slickymasterWork: mmm - not seeing that on this machine nor a vm
<pleia2> hey slickymaster :)
<elfy> ochosi: got another +1 to that fix now via the bug report 
<elfy> ochosi: what you going to do about a meeting - we need to get one soon I guess - things like the m/l and PPA at least need to be sorted
<bluesabre> sorry about that elfy/forestpiskie, was looking for some ad hoc testing and wanted to get a request out before I ran out the door this morning
<brainwash> bluesabre: can we make lightdm's dependency on the indicator libs optional?
<bluesabre> ... I thought it was optional
<bluesabre> since it works in not-ubuntu
<bluesabre> you have to compile specifically with --enable-indicator-services
<brainwash> mmmmh, I missed some things
<brainwash> not lightdm, but lightdm-gtk-greeter
<brainwash> in ubuntu
<bluesabre> right
<brainwash> the ubuntu package :)
<bluesabre> that's how its compiled, you don't have to include indicators in your config
<brainwash> I know that
<bluesabre> /etc/lightdm/lightdm-gtk-greeter.conf
<bluesabre> so, it is optional, xubuntu ships with indicators enabled
<bluesabre> anyway, gotta run, family here
<bluesabre> bbl
<brainwash> I'll rebuild the package locally then, guess no one else is bothered by the indicator libs
<brainwash> (if one does not use the unity indicators)
<ali1234> what's the problem here?
<brainwash> there is none
<brainwash> greeter depends on libido3-0.1-0 and libindicator3-7, I would like to move the to recommends
<ali1234> well, they have to be compiled in afaik
<ali1234> so we can't make them recommends... the greeter will just fail to run if they're not installed
<brainwash> right
<brainwash> can we add a runtime detection?
<ali1234> not easily
<brainwash> it's not a problem, I'm just curious
#xubuntu-devel 2014-05-14
<amigamagic> hi all :)
<brainwash> amigamagic: hey, this is the bug report which addresses the lightdm cursor problem -> bug 1024482
<ubottu> bug 1024482 in unity-greeter (Ubuntu) "Mouse cursor theme does not change from default after login" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1024482
<[1]amigamagic> brainwash, are you sure is that the right bug report?
<brainwash> yes and no
<brainwash> check the linked debian reports
<amigamagic> maybe it's related but it's not exactly the same problem I think...
<brainwash> it should be the same issue just described differently
<amigamagic> it talks about the mouse that doesn't change shape everywhere, but to me it's only the busy cursor that doesn't work
<brainwash> it's very likely that this is still the same issue
<brainwash> "When using LightDM to login to a GNOME Shell session"
<brainwash> lightdm (+greeter) and gdm do things differently
<brainwash> so there is some sort of incompatibility
<amigamagic> I tried xdm and the busy cursor works with that
<brainwash> bluesabre: can we set this env var in the greeter code? https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/unity-greeter/+bug/1024482/comments/18
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1024482 in unity-greeter (Ubuntu) "Mouse cursor theme does not change from default after login" [Undecided,Confirmed]
<brainwash> I've tested it and apps like abiword, libreoffice, software-center,.. now trigger the busy cursor on startup
<ochosi> hi everyone
<ochosi> sry, i was busy/away travelling
<ochosi> thanks for doing the tests elfy 
<ochosi> guess we can move on to the sophisticated patch then if this one works in principle
<sidi-valencia> woooho
<sidi-valencia> ochosi is back!
 * sidi-valencia pokes brainwash, bluesabre, knome, ali1234 and Unit193 all at once.
<ochosi> heh
<ochosi> hey sidi-valencia 
<sidi-valencia> hi
<ochosi> didn't know you were hanging out in this channel too :)
<sidi-valencia> im everywhere D:
<ochosi> does that mean you're just one step away from contributing to xubuntu again? ;)
<sidi-valencia> it's funny how the place changed in 5 years though
<sidi-valencia> so many more people
<sidi-valencia> and some people gone, too
<sidi-valencia> ochosi, yes
<ochosi> awesome
<sidi-valencia> as soon as you guys drop the Ubuntu part I'll join again
<ochosi> harhar
<ochosi> yeah, luckily there are a few more ppl here now than there were
<ochosi> still not too many though
<sidi-valencia> is ubuntulog_ a logging daemon?
<ochosi> should be, yeah
<ochosi> this channel is logged
<ochosi> Unit193: could you please add the next team meeting (Friday, May 16th at 10:00am UTC) to the google-cal?
<elfy> ochosi: I hope that you'll have the mailing lists in place before the next meeting for us :)
<ochosi> elfy: knome was assigned to send a proposal for that to the ML
<ochosi> so i'll wait for that
<ochosi> that was actually decided at the last meeting, when i wasn't around, so it's not even my fault :)
<slickymasterWork> next meeting will be Friday, May 16th at 10:00am UTC, right elfy, ochosi?
<ochosi> yup
<slickymasterWork> thanks, ochosi 
<elfy> though I might make that 
<ochosi> good
<ochosi> i hope many will make it
<ochosi> as i said, it's a bid of an experiment
<elfy> depends if I'm working - I believe not
<slickymasterWork> I'll make it, but probably will be fighting with my connectivity (as usual at work) :P
<elfy> :)
<slickymasterWork> you laugh elfy, I despair
<elfy> I can usually feel you despairing from over here ;)
<slickymasterWork> lol
<knome> ochosi, added it to the calendar
<elfy> hi knome 
<knome> hey elfy
<ochosi> bbiab
<elfy> ochosi: 1 report that the xfpm fix doesn't work
<ochosi> elfy: thanks, i saw it and replied
<ochosi> dinner time...
<brainwash> heh
<brainwash> did anyone test with xscreensaver or other screen lockers? we surely don't want to fix one thing and break another
<brainwash> amigamagic: hey
<amigamagic> hi brainwash 
<brainwash> amigamagic: https://launchpad.net/~thad-fisch/+archive/lightdm-gtk-greeter
<brainwash> busy cursor with lightdm(-gtk-greeter)
<brainwash> the report I've linked earlier today was the correct one
<amigamagic> it's a fix for the busy cursor problem?
<brainwash> more like a workaround
<brainwash> see https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/unity-greeter/+bug/1024482/comments/18
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1024482 in unity-greeter (Ubuntu) "Mouse cursor theme does not change from default after login" [Undecided,Confirmed]
<brainwash> I've only added the env var to the greeter code
<brainwash> and it works fine for me
<brainwash> the question is, what could setting this env var possibly break (in the future)? :)
<amigamagic> I have to try that...
<amigamagic> for that really I don't know... We should check what the GDK_CORE_DEVICE_EVENTS var does...
<brainwash> I wonder if we you could include this change for the next bug fix release
<brainwash> after a discussion ofc
<amigamagic> I found this on a forum thread from 2012 (http://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic-t-925138-start-0.html): "If you export GDK_CORE_DEVICE_EVENTS=1, GDK will stop using XInput and use old-school X11 events"
<brainwash> yes
<brainwash> it shouldn't break anything
<brainwash> anything related to xubuntu :)
<amigamagic> I think we should try it for a while and check if we see anomalies in the behaviour of gdk applications
<amigamagic> xfce itself I think uses gdk for some plugins
<brainwash> gdk is used by gtk
<brainwash> so we need to look out for cursor anomalies
<amigamagic> yes
<amigamagic> after the var change, I have to logout and login to check if it works?
<amigamagic> ok, now the busy cursor works
<amigamagic> the system looks all right. The mouse changes shape when you go to the corners of the windows or in an a text field, etc...
<amigamagic> I tried some classic apps (gimp, libreoffice, firefox, chrome, etc.) and it looks all ok. I don't think this var could do troubles in the system, but let's check for a while. 
<brainwash> you should check mainly gtk3 apps like gedit
<amigamagic> I don't know if I have gtk3 apps
<amigamagic> the editor I use are mousepad and geany
<brainwash> then just enjoy the busy cursor :)
<amigamagic> yeah, of course! Thanks for the help!
<amigamagic> Is there already some list with the new features for the 14.10 release? For example, there are some little improvements and bugfixes for xfdesktop and tasklist plugin that could already be included in the 14.10. 
<brainwash> roadmap?
<brainwash> usually upstream fixes will land automatically in the new release (synced from debian)
<brainwash> or manually by someone from the team
<brainwash> per request
<brainwash> but this requires a new upstream release
<brainwash> like xfdesktop 4.11.7
<amigamagic> yes, honestly I don't think those fixes and improvements are already in the mainstream
<amigamagic> but it's very likely that they will be before 3-4 months
<brainwash> these fixes could be tested via the team ppa
<amigamagic> for example there is these: https://bugzilla.xfce.org/show_bug.cgi?id=10813    https://bugzilla.xfce.org/show_bug.cgi?id=10846   https://bugzilla.xfce.org/show_bug.cgi?id=10862
<ubottu> bugzilla.xfce.org bug 10813 in General "xfdesktop doesn't save the arrangement of desktop icons after a resolution change" [Minor,Resolved: fixed]
<ubottu> bugzilla.xfce.org bug 10846 in Window Buttons "Grouped icons sometimes are wrongly rendered as a mini-icon" [Minor,New]
<ubottu> bugzilla.xfce.org bug 10862 in Window Buttons "Grouped icons are not rendered with transparent effect when their child are all minimized." [Minor,New]
<amigamagic> they are all fixed albeit only the first has been checked and marked as fixed by an xfce developer. I think there are some developers in the XFCE team that are no more active. No one checked my last 2 fixes from 25 April and 2 May
<elfy> evening all 
<amigamagic> hi elfy
<elfy> hi amigamagic 
<brainwash> hey elfy 
<elfy> hey brainwash :)
<brainwash> amigamagic: the Xfce project needs more helping hands and active developers/maintainers, especially for the near future (gtk3 + wayland + systemd)
<amigamagic> yeah
<amigamagic> but it's so imperative to switch to gtk3 ? (note that I don't know much of these libraries, being that I've only fixed some xfce bug here and there)
<brainwash> gtk2 is old, deprecated and hardly maintained anymore
<brainwash> gtk3 is also a requirement for wayland support
<amigamagic> is gtk3 totally incompatible with gtk2? 
<amigamagic> I mean, if you have to rewrite all from scratch (xfdesktop, thunar, panels, plugins, etc.), I wouldn't like to be in the shoes of the developers... :D
<ali1234> gtk3 isn't the problem and systemd isn't the problem
<ali1234> porting it to those will be trivial
<ali1234> wayland is the problem
<ali1234> porting to wayland will require a from-scratch rewrite of almost every component
<amigamagic> ouch
<ali1234> and the end result would be as different from xfce as gnome 3 is from gnome 2
<brainwash> why that? will coders get bored of writing it from scratch and start messing around with the design? :D
<ali1234> no, it's basically because wayland implements only the functions needed to implement gnome shell
<ali1234> in xfce and in gnome panel, the panel and window manager are separate, yeah?
<brainwash> it's built around gnome3 =S
<ali1234> and you can use xfce panel with metacity, or gnome panel with xfwm?
<ali1234> in gnome shell, the window manager and panel are one big monolithic binary
<ali1234> and so in wayland, that's the only way you're allowed to make a shell
<brainwash> like unity
<ali1234> yes, exactly like unity
<brainwash> unity8 + mir won't be different
<ali1234> mir is almost exactly the same as wayland in every way
<brainwash> hooray
<amigamagic> I hate gnome 3 (the UI, I mean)
<ali1234> there is really no reason for both of them to exist
<ali1234> except the gnome and wayland are red hat, and unity and mir are canonical
<ali1234> they're really both equally bad in exactly the same ways
<ali1234> and the constant fighting between them is kind of annoying, since they both all do the same things they accuse the other of doing
<amigamagic> it's not a case that they look similar in many aspects
<brainwash> oh, systemd also fits in this category
<ali1234> i'm not talking about the visual design
<brainwash> bloated piece of software
<ali1234> i'm talking about the APIs
<ali1234> systemd is almost the exact opposite
<brainwash> it is?
<ali1234> wayland replaces X which does everything, with a tiny library that can only just run a single piece of software
<ali1234> systemd replaces tiny shell scripts with a massive tool that does everything
<brainwash> ah
<brainwash> wayland as protocol
<brainwash> but the implementations are bloated
<ali1234> yes, X is a protocol too
<brainwash> like gnome
<brainwash> with mutter
<ali1234> in a sense
<ali1234> wayland pushes all responsibilty into the compositor shell, which means that instead of getting rid of the old X code, you've just created multiple different broken re-implementations of it
<ali1234> systemd sucks in responsibilities from other programs, so it's at least standardizing things
<ali1234> they really are completely opposite in design
<brainwash> so, we wait and see what happens :)
<ali1234> no, we continue to complain about the lack of standardization in wayland until they fix it
<brainwash> why not provide patches?
<ali1234> patches have already been provided
<ali1234> the last time sometime tried to do something about this, the wayland devs kicked him off the team
<brainwash> and then Mir was born? :D
<brainwash> mmh
<ali1234> no, northfield was created
<ali1234> mir has identical design goals to wayland
<ali1234> and they also have no interest in standardizing anything
<brainwash> northfield already dead?
<ali1234> not dead, just resting
<ali1234> apparently
<ali1234> i spoke to the developer recently
<knome> pining for the fjords, eh?
<ali1234> well yeah, it's unlikely that northfield will ever take over the world
<brainwash> so it's not easy to change/adjust the vision of the main wayland devs
<ali1234> well the problem is that they don't want to take on any extra responsibilities
<knome> it's not easy to change/adjust the vision of anybody
<ali1234> what wayland does, it does well
<amigamagic> Sometimes small pieces of software that do small things are better than a monolithic big one that tries to do everything. And you can easily replace the small piece with another one (maybe a better implementation), without break anything.
<brainwash> "vision"
<ali1234> the problem is it's not enough, and there's no standard way of implementing the extra things that are needed, and this is largely because gnome shell doesn't need them
<brainwash> I see
<ali1234> and exactly the same applies to mir/unity
<amigamagic> ali1234, one of these missing implementations maybe is related to panels (like in gnome2/xfce) ?
<ali1234> right, wnck can't work in wayland
<ali1234> or mir
<ali1234> a program running in wayland cannot know what other programs are running, which means it is impossible to write a panel in wayland
<ali1234> wayland also does not support window reparenting at all, so external decorations are impossible
<ali1234> and programs cannot position their own windows, which breaks xfdesktop
<ali1234> you can implement all these things in the compositor
<ali1234> but then your program will only work in one compositor, and it work work in gnome or kde or weston
<amigamagic> doesn't cinnamon uses gnome3 ? How they did that?
<ali1234> it has nothing to do with gnome 3
<ali1234> they run gnome 3 in X11
<amigamagic> but they have panels, I think...
<ali1234> so these problems do not apply
<amigamagic> so you can use gnome3 in X11 too?
<ali1234> they will be forced to rewrite their panels when they switch to wayland, just like gnome did
<amigamagic> and it's really necessary to switch to wayland?
<ali1234> actually cinnamon is a fork of gnome 3, so that has already happened
<ali1234> no, it's not necessary to switch at all
<amigamagic> so, maybe it would be better to follow the cinnamon way
<Unit193> ochosi: http://goo.gl/Gy3XVV
<Unit193> knome: Oh right.  It keeps sending me stuff, but I have to login to do something, but I am not aware what password and it doesn't appear to be my own that I need to moderate the list.
<knome> yyyah.
 * elfy has same issue with the -users list ... 
<knome> elfy can prod you with the -devel pass
<knome> i don't have it here right now
<elfy> except that the -devel pass fails for the -user list :)
<knome> yeah, that i don't have anywhere
<elfy> oh - Unit193 wants the dev pass?
<knome> we most probably want to refresh that
<knome> elfy, yep.
<knome> what do you think of my proposal then?
<elfy> done 
<elfy> I've seen no proposal
<Unit193> -devel mailing list, a minute ago.
<elfy> orite - not seen it yet
<elfy> I say I disagree with it ... 
<elfy> :p
<knome> elfy, great, now please argument ;)
<elfy> I'll not - I'll not be able to post my stuff to the -devel list as I need to get people actually talking back to me :)
<knome> ;)
 * Unit193 doesn't think there's anything important he has to go to any list.
<elfy> that's because not enough people in QA send things to the list :p
<Unit193> Hey!  I trello'd, what more do you need? ;)
<elfy> :)
<elfy> to trello on a board I'm subscribed to so I know lol
<elfy> or to do one of the checklist things in the only Doing 14.10 card :)
<elfy> anyway - I'm off now - cya tomorrow peeps 
<ali1234> my only concern about a moderated list is that the moderators will get bored and forget to moderate posts
<ali1234> this is basically the situation on ubuntu-devel now
<knome> they'll get daily emails about moderating
<ali1234> if you're not whitelisted you can't post, and you won't get a rejection either
<ali1234> just silence
<knome> i think we might be able to set a message for "pending"
<knome> if the moderators get bored... well, then the team won't be very active
<ali1234> yes, you can
<ali1234> ubuntu-devel is *very* active
<ali1234> just not the moderators
<bluesabre> brainwash: we can possibly include it, but I'd be interested in what regressions it causes
#xubuntu-devel 2014-05-15
<bluesabre> Can anybody confirm if this is still an issue for them: https://bugs.launchpad.net/light-locker-settings/+bug/1303652
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1303652 in light-locker-settings (Ubuntu) "Blank screen setting lost after installing nvidia driver" [Undecided,New]
<bluesabre> /them/you
<ochosi> elfy: hmm, those two testers on the lid-close bug seem to have misunderstood the bug. one thinks it's related to the screen DPMS setting and the other seems to think it's related to auto-login on boot time...
<ochosi> so i'm kinda wondering whether to ignore that...
<ochosi> hey sergio-br2 
<knome> elfy, see my looong reply ;)
<sergio-br2> hey ochosi
<sergio-br2> congratulations 
<sergio-br2> (late...)
<ochosi> thanks sergio-br2 
<ochosi> make sure you "git pull" before committing stuff in elementary-xfce ;)
<ochosi> anyway, wanted to ask how things are going with the open issues for our next release
<ochosi> i also noticed that i have to draw two more libreoffice sizes (there are currently 128px apps and 96px mimes in the old style)
<sergio-br2> yeah, i messed up, sorry
<ochosi> hehe, no problem, it happens
<sergio-br2> lua mime is uploaded, with that 24 px icon. I don't know if it's worth doing 16 px for the news mimes
<sergio-br2> (and i tried other color, not so good)
<ochosi> news mimes?
<sergio-br2> (php, perl... that i was thinking)
<sergio-br2> mimetypes
<sergio-br2> mime is other thing in english :D
<ochosi> ah
<ochosi> :)
<sergio-br2> i would take this 96 and 128 px libreoffice icons (i think i said i could do them), but apparently there are many things to do
<sergio-br2> when do you think to release new version ochosi? beta1 of utopic?
<ochosi> well, i'd like to decouple the icon-theme a bit from xubuntu
<ochosi> as we have other distros that use them too
<ochosi> so i'd like to finish the stuff we need for the next release asap
<ochosi> and whenever we need a new release for xubuntu, we do a 0.x.1 release
<ochosi> so a maintenance release for xubuntu mostly
<sergio-br2> thougt a name for the theme?
<sergio-br2> elementary-plus?
<ochosi> meh, nah
<ochosi> but yeah, i haven't thought about it for a while
<ochosi> sergio-br2: btw, i've started with the 96px mimes already for LO, so no need to do that
<ochosi> and as you said, you already have other things to finish first
<sergio-br2> ok
<elfy> afternoon
<ochosi> hey elfy 
<elfy> saw your reply on the bug :)
<ochosi> i think we oughta change the bug description
<ochosi> otherwise we get more fake tests
<elfy> oooh it's a bug - I'll add my kind of the same random issue to it  ... 
<ochosi> or tests for other bugs
<ochosi> suspending is generally a thing that can fail
<ochosi> so we can get all kinds of issues mixed up there...
<elfy> ochosi: yea - agreed 
<knome> elfy, read my reply? :P
<ochosi> elfy: anyway, i've put things in motion so that we can test the final patch soon
<elfy> knome: I did - as there were stats and 99.999% of stats are made up I ignored it :p
<knome> hah, well they aren't made up :P
<ochosi> elfy: (this was only a quick hack to see whether this approach actually works)
<elfy> ochosi: yep - I understand 
<knome> elfy, the first two paragraphs, i hope, answers your question...
<elfy> knome: yea it did :)
<elfy> ochosi: Black screen after reboot from lid-close suspension ?
<knome> elfy, also, i'd read the conclusions after the stats ;)
<knome> but bbiab, lunch/dinner
<elfy> knome: I didn't really ignore it lol 
<ochosi> elfy: reboot is really too ambiguous. "Black screen after wakup from suspending by closing the laptop lid" maybe?
<elfy> sounds good to me 
<elfy> done 
<ochosi> ty
<ochosi> btw, knome mentioned a few things wrt -release today
<ochosi> i'm still very new to this, so you might have to hold my hand a bit this cycle
<elfy> it's shame that these things don't get discussed in here :|
<elfy> ochosi: anyway - if I can help you - just ask :)
<ochosi> nah, this was just a PM between him and me where he shoved all the team-ownership down my throat
<ochosi> nothing of substance was discussed
<elfy> ok :)
<ochosi> i just asked what the release team has to do
<elfy> just so long as it's not bunches of xubuntu-team stuff that should be in here being in some random shimmer channel ;)
<ochosi> heh, i hear you. will try to be more focussed in this respect
<ochosi> thing is, sometimes i'm not sure it's good if we pollute this channel with discussions on the greeter roadmap
<ochosi> or stuff we're working on in parole
<elfy> the trouble is - if bits of it are important - then it get's missed
<elfy> we've already had one thing going on with non-communication this cycle
<ochosi> this cycle == 14.10?
<elfy> yea
<ochosi> which thing then?
<elfy> someone just chucking a request to the m/l for testing something - I knew absolutely nothing about it 
<elfy> I might have been sending something at the same time
<ochosi> right
<ochosi> not sure whether that was discussed anywhere
<ochosi> i presume you mean the call for testing menulibre?
<elfy> yea
<ochosi> i think bluesabre just wanted to help you by doing the work himself
<ochosi> but i agree, if an email has "testing" in the subject line, you should be made aware of that first
<elfy> that's great - in itself - but if I'd been ready to do something with the testers - it wouldn't have helped
<elfy> anyway - this just brings home the need for better communication - one way or the other :)
<ochosi> yeah
<ochosi> i think we should discuss this at tomorrow's meeting though
<elfy> if we don't do something like trello team wide - perhaps we can add those likely to want things tested to the board - then they can make notes on it about that they're up to - so there are no surprises
<elfy> yep 
<ochosi> i think the easy solution would be: if there is a call for testing, send it to you instead of the list
<elfy> my issue is that I have to plan testing around immovable things like milestones - people chucking random stuff about doesn't help with that
<ochosi> thing is that there aren't *so* many ppl here working on app-development
<ochosi> or even bugfixing
<elfy> yep I know - which makes the communication thing even more exasperating :)
<elfy> it's not like we have to look at a list of 200 people to see who needs to know something lol
<ochosi> yeah
<ochosi> exactly
<ochosi> would you be fine with this routine of just re-routing these emails through you?
<ochosi> or would you prefer some other process
<elfy> let's see what occurs in the meeting re m/l's and stuff
<ochosi> yeah, i actually seem to have a problem with the @xfce address
<ochosi> i haven't received stuff from the ML for a day oro so
<elfy> I seem to be getting the digests - which is all I get 
<elfy> so they are coming out
<ochosi> yeah
<ochosi> i also haven't received stuff from the xfce-ml
<ochosi> so it surely is related to my forwarding
<elfy> I'd guess so
<knome> one option is to leave pre-alpha time for random teting
<knome> *testing
<elfy> knome: I specifically have set it so that we'll have loads of time apart from milestones at the end 
<knome> yep
<knome> i understand
<knome> though, the other issue is
<knome> the menulibre release was a clear bugfix release
<elfy> that's not the issue
<knome> which fixed many things recently reported
<knome> it's better to get them confirmed fixed now
<knome> than later
<elfy> the issue is communication is abysmal
<elfy> I would have said something to [team] in the m/l about how testing was planned - but it was completely ignored last time by the majority of us
<knome> well, i can only speak for myself
<knome> not replying doesn't necessarily mean ignoring
<knome> even if nobody replied anything, it's good to have an informal mail on the list
<elfy> well I didn't :)
<knome> and it'll be more discoverable if we decide to moderate the list
<elfy> well actually I did - just not to team 
<elfy> moderation doesn't equal people communicating things ;)
<knome> no
<knome> nor does it mean people will actually look at the archives
<elfy> anyway - I really don't want to get into this discussion now 
<knome> elfy, is the QA schedule for 14.10 anywhere visible?
<elfy> the draft is on the mailing list 
<knome> hmpf.
<knome> i must have missed it this time...
<knome> or then just forgot :P
<knome> hmm, right
<knome> actually, what i think we need to discuss is
<knome> testing outside the testing schedule
<knome> because we will always need it
<knome> it's great we have a lot of time free at the end of the cycle
<knome> however, releases do not always happen at ideal times
<elfy> then that is down to those needing that stuff discussed to bring it up 
<knome> the other question is:
<knome> is, for example, menulibre testing calls inappropriate for the xubuntu list?
<elfy> no - why would it be 
<knome> well,
<knome> it's not exactly a xubuntu project :)
<elfy> testing for xubuntu is 
<ochosi> yeah, it's used in elementary and other distros too
<knome> while it is connected, and it's in our seed, the xubuntu team isn't technically liable for the testing
<knome> shouldn't the "testing for xubuntu" happen when menulibre is on the testing calendar?
<knome> and within the testcases we have
<elfy> surely the same can be said for nearly everything that we test
<knome> yes
<knome> we don't have general "please test this new abiword release" mails on the list though
<knome> we only test it within our own testing routines
<knome> so, the qeustion is
<knome> should menulibre have a special position because it's developed "in-house"?
<elfy> I guess that if someone needed something testing and it didn't impact on any planned testing then I've not too much of a problem with it
<knome> and if yes, do we expect its testing to be scheduled with the xubuntu testing
<knome> or do we allow it its own testing schedule, which is "test when released"
<ochosi> knome: strange, i just received your mail wrt teams, but the earlier one about MLs was "lost" or something.. need to dig through the online archive i guess
<knome> :)
<ochosi> seems like the xfce-forward is a bit unreliable atm
<elfy> in that position then xubuntu mailing list isn't the right place 
<knome> ochosi, https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/xubuntu-devel/2014-May/010193.html
<elfy> but that's nto any different than us testing a bug fix for abiword is it?
<knome> well,
<knome> the difference is
<knome> if we're testing a bugfix for abiword
<knome> it's a known bug that xubuntu users/testers reported
<knome> and something that's important for us
<knome> the menulibre bugfix stuff is the same, except that the call was for a whole bunch of bugs
<knome> eg. a bugfix release
<elfy> was that NOT important to us?
<knome> heh, of course
<knome> let me try to rephrase
<knome> menulibre got a new bugfix release
<knome> and then we got the call for testing
<knome> when abiword gets a bugfix release
<knome> we don't get a notification, nor do we specifically test the bugfixes right after that
<knome> but in accordance to our own testing schedule
<knome> well, testing always happens parallely
<elfy> no - but if someone asked me to try to fit in a specific test for abiword then I would 
<knome> but that's different
<knome> if abiword released 3.4.1
<knome> or whatever
<knome> we wouldn't test the 3.4.1 release
<knome> we'd check if it generally works
<elfy> mmmm
<knome> and if the bugs we have experienced were fixed
<knome> now,
<knome> menulibre got a similar release
<knome> for "some" reason, all the bugs fixed were experienced by us
<knome> but the call was for that menulibre release
<knome> for that time only
<knome> not something we'd have to keep regularly checking
<elfy> if 3.4.1 got released after we'd done the call that included abiword - then nothing would specifically be done till the next cycle
<knome> elfy, exactly
<knome> elfy, and if it got released before we tested it
<knome> elfy, we would wait until we hit the abiword dates on the schedule
<elfy> then we test what is in the daily at that point
<elfy> yes 
<knome> or we wouldn't wait
<knome> because we didn't know a new version was out
<knome> we'd just notice it when we test
<knome> and notice those bugs were gone
<elfy> but - we try to be flexible - if someone says something about something specific
<knome> sure
<knome> as i said, there's always parallel stuff going on
<knome> regardless of the testing schedule
<knome> now the question is
<elfy> so I really don't understand your point here :)
<knome> is menulibre important enough, and
<knome> is the bug release minor enough
<knome> to be okay to allow parallel testing, even if it was during some other scheduled testing
<knome> and possibly:
<knome> is the people who do the scheduled tests the only people who do testing at all
<knome> because there might be somebody who is specifically interested about menulibre testing
<knome> <-
<elfy> who knows 
<elfy> all I *know* is who reports things
<knome> but doesn't *necessarily* take part in all scheduled tests
<knome> <- kind of
<knome> yeah, we don't know :)
<elfy> look 
<elfy> I really don't understand what you're getting at - frankly I'm not that worried about what we test - as long as team is happy that what needs to be tested
<elfy> what I do worry about is a free for all - when everyone and his dog sends testing calls to the list
<knome> lol
<elfy> it's really simple 
<knome> i wouldn't consider sean "everyone and his dog" ;)
<elfy> well no - but you know what I mean 
<knome> i do
<knome> i haven't seen much calls for testing that have been irrelevant though
<elfy> and is seems to me that you're just trying to make it sound ok for Sean to do what he did
<knome> no, not really...
<knome> i guess i personally think it's okay
<elfy> if team thinks that - then that's fine - but I don't and I won't put up with being kept oput of the loop on testing
<knome> but if we want that out of the list, i completely understand that too
<elfy> and if it keeps happening then I'll just go
<knome> well, we don't want that
<knome> i agree that sean should have asked you first
<elfy> it is really simple - communication was abysmal last cycle - and it looks exactly the same at the moment from where I'm sitting
<ochosi> sergio-br2: LO mimes are done, so only apps/128 is missing for that piece...
<sergio-br2> great
<knome> elfy, as ochosi asked, would you be fine if all calls for testing went through you then?
<knome> elfy, i'm just weighing options, i'm not deciding anything, don't worry :)
<knome> (i don't even have the power to do so anymore)
<elfy> and I'll say the same thing again - let's see what happens in the meeting 
<knome> how will the meeting make a difference?
<knome> decisions about mailing lists?
<elfy> yep 
<elfy> and trello perhaps 
<knome> bluesabre's mail would have been automatically accepted anyway
<elfy> because if that's just a we're really not going to do that - then we do need to do something 
<knome> or he could have approved it himself if not :P
<knome> one of the issues is clearly too much traffic on the list.
<knome> let me fix that:
<knome> too much irrelevant traffic
<knome> i seriously want to find a solution that works for you and the team, and any potential people who do calls for testing
<elfy> I'm not worried about *me* :) I just want *us* to be in a better place with regard to knowing at least the bare bones about what's going on
<elfy> gives us all a fighting chance
<knome> yep
<ochosi> knome: read up on the whole ML proposal, thanks for that!
<knome> np
<ochosi> after reading the statistics i somewhat agree, but we should talk to all moderators about this
<ochosi> as it will suddenly increase their workload from nearly 0 to 3 per week on average
<knome> all current moderators, or all moderators that were moderators when we started talking about this?
<knome> well, 0 is inexisting
<knome> it's probably 1 now
<ochosi> well i'd want all of them to "sign up" for this
<knome> and more if we count those mails we need to discard
<knome> sure
<knome> but tbh, i believe the policy will take care that the workload will decrease
<ochosi> hopefully yes
<ochosi> actually, as an example of the past, #xfce-dev was closed a longer while ago
<ochosi> because there was so much random noise there
<ochosi> after a year it could be re-opened
<knome> mhm
<ochosi> and has been okay since then
<knome> yep
<ochosi> even if it might become busier/noisier again, there was a long/er term effect
<ochosi> so i'm generally +1 on this
<knome> yes
<knome> i hate to say this, but there seems to be a group of people who are the root of the random noise
<a5m0> how can i get lightdm to have the correct resolution and correctly show my dual-monitor wallpaper? (xubuntu 14.04)
<ochosi> a5m0: this is the development channel, for support questions ask in #xubuntu
<brainwash> ochosi: logind hibernate policy has been finally adjusted
<brainwash> http://cgit.freedesktop.org/systemd/systemd/commit/?id=301f9684e6465df5d0590f6c571fe3229ded966d
<ochosi> guess that'll land in ubuntu at some point automatically
<brainwash> once ubuntu switches to systemd completely
<brainwash> ochosi: can we merge https://code.launchpad.net/~thad-fisch/xubuntu-default-settings/migrate-kb-shortcuts ?
<brainwash> and what about https://code.launchpad.net/~thad-fisch/xubuntu-default-settings/remove-leftover-conffile ? del the branch?
<ochosi> brainwash: kb-shortcuts branch merged, the other one i'm not sure we really need...
<brainwash> first we would need to close the lp report
<ochosi> you could extend your MR to also fix https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/xubuntu-default-settings/+bug/1311090
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1311090 in xubuntu-default-settings (Ubuntu) "After removing xubuntu-default-settings package lightdm failed to start" [Medium,Triaged]
<ochosi> that seems more important actually
<brainwash> but why extend if the first one is somewhat obsolete?
<brainwash> it happened during the development phase
<ochosi> yeah, you can also just fix the latter and remove the other branch
<brainwash> maybe
<brainwash> I also forgot about the non working kb shortcut issue :/
<brainwash> the problem is that the user config file is created based on the xubuntu AND Xfce one
<brainwash> which differ slightly
<brainwash> key-wise
<ochosi> how do they differ and what's the problem exactly?
<ochosi> is there a bugreport already?
<ochosi> brainwash: you can delete your remove-leftover.. branch now
<brainwash> e.g. xubuntu uses alt+f5 to maximize a window and alt+f10 is not mapped anymore
<brainwash> but the normal Xfce kb shortcut xml assigns alt-f10 to maximize window
<brainwash> so the user xml will contain alt+f5 and alt+f10 for maximize window
<knome> assign all unassigned keys to a script that plays a "meow" sound!
 * knome hides
<brainwash> 2 entries for the same command
<brainwash> now the user tries to reassign it, but only one entry will be deleted and a new one created
<brainwash> the new one will be ignored
<ochosi> do you have a solution for that already?
<ochosi> (other than dropping xubuntu shortcuts)
<knome> do not inherit xfce shortcuts?
<knome> :)
<brainwash> maybe it's a simply prefix issue
<brainwash> because we store our xubuntu related configs in /etc/xdg/xdg-xubuntu
<brainwash> so the user config file should be only created based on this file
<brainwash> it's an easy fix I guess
<ochosi> bbl
<brainwash> we can ignore already "corrupted" xml files?
<brainwash> just tell the user to delete it, so it will be re-created properly?
<brainwash> one could add some sort of clean up mechanism, but that's maybe overkill
<brainwash> and it won't be accepted upstream, so we'll have to carry it downstream :)
 * amigamagic pc says: "eeeeh!?" when he press ALT+F13
#xubuntu-devel 2014-05-16
<bluesabre> anybody around?
<bluesabre> brainwash: poke
<ochosi> bluesabre: sorry, already heading to bed
<bluesabre> ooh!
<bluesabre> quick, link to lid-close bug
<ochosi> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/xfce4-power-manager/+bug/1303736
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1303736 in xfce4-power-manager (Ubuntu) "Black screen after wakeup from suspending by closing the laptop lid" [High,Confirmed]
<bluesabre> yay, thanks!
<ochosi> (just bookmark this page: https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/xubuntu-14-04-point-1 )
<bluesabre> finished with adjusting the patch, will upload the package in a few
<ochosi> sweet
<ochosi> did you test it?
<bluesabre> not yet
<ochosi> okeydokey
<bluesabre> again, issue doesn't affect me
<ochosi> this is extremely weird
<ochosi> i wonder how it can and cannot affect anyone with a laptop
<ochosi> it should be consistent
<bluesabre> race condition most likely
<ochosi> the only thing i *can* imagine is that your computer is "too fast"
<ochosi> and older ones fail
<bluesabre> brand new gaming laptop :)
<ochosi> yeah
<ochosi> i guess if this works for "most" ppl, we should SRU it
<ochosi> (as i said, some of the testers were obviously mistaken)
<ochosi> anyway, let's continue at the meeting
<ochosi> gotta hit the hay
<bluesabre> seeya ochosi
<ochosi> seeya!
<ochosi> and thanks for the patch!
<bluesabre> ochosi: patched xfpm and light-locker-settings pushed to xubuntu-dev ppa
<Unit193> bluesabre: There's some updates to be done to the xubuntu-artwork package, want to fix them?
<Unit193> ochosi: Oh, so are we having another version of xubuntu-community-artwork?
<ochosi> Unit193: depends, i personally don't want to invest the time for another call and the follow-up work, i have enough on my plate this cycle i guess...
<ochosi> so if somebody else from the team wants to take that on, we can do another version, otherwise we can just ship the same wallpapers again
<ochosi> (knome: i just said "wallpapers" ^ , in case you don't have that on your highlight-list ;))
<Unit193> Fine by me, so we don't have them.
<elfy> I week in the job - excuses already :p
<ochosi> heh
<ochosi> that's an excuse from my other job though (artwork-lead)
<ochosi> (the one i've been doing for a few years)
<Unit193> "I would, but :effort:"
<ochosi> running the new call wouldn't be hard, but there's a bit maintenance and follow-up work
<ochosi> hehe
<ochosi> elfy: bluesabre uploaded an improved version to the xubuntu-dev PPA (xfpm+ll), could you give that a spin?
<ochosi> i gotta run off until the meeting
<elfy> ochosi: yep
<ochosi> thanks!
<ochosi> i hope it works so we can get this over with :)
<ochosi> bbl
<elfy> ochosi bluesabre - upgraded to new xfpm/lls - still works for me
<brainwash> ochosi: do we already know that light-locker-settings is not in sync with the .desktop files before hitting the apply button for the first time?
<brainwash> I remember reading about this here
<brainwash> would be bug 1306917
<ubottu> bug 1306917 in light-locker-settings (Ubuntu) "light-locker: screen always automatically locked" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1306917
<knome> ochosi, lets see if we really want that.
<bluesabre> o.-
<knome> hey bluesabre 
<knome> you still or already awake?
<bluesabre> woke up just to be here, ochosi should feel loved
<bluesabre> !team | Wake up!
<ubottu> Wake up!: bluesabre, elfy, GridCube, jjfrv8, knome, lderan, micahg, mr_pouit, Noskcaj, ochosi, pleia2, skellat, slickymaster, Unit193
<Unit193> It's 5am, no.
<knome> hmm
<knome> yeah, still an hour to go ;)
<slickymasterWork> lol
<bluesabre> oh
<bluesabre> damn clock
<knome> bluesabre, GO BACK TO BED ;)
<slickymasterWork> !team | ~morning 
<ubottu> ~morning: bluesabre, elfy, GridCube, jjfrv8, knome, lderan, micahg, mr_pouit, Noskcaj, ochosi, pleia2, skellat, slickymaster, Unit193
<bluesabre> DST is not my friend
<slickymasterWork> bluesabre, don't poke Unit193 ;)
<bluesabre> "Let sleeping dogs lie"?
<brainwash> bluesabre: did you want to ask me sth?
<bluesabre> I did, but ochosi popped up and answered
<brainwash> ok
<brainwash> elfy: did you also test with xscreensaver?
<elfy> brainwash: no - why would I?
<ochosi> brainwash: yes, that is something we also want to fix at some point
<brainwash> elfy: isn't it obvious? :)
<elfy> not at all - we don't seed xscreensaver
<ochosi> elfy: for upgraders, i'd prefer if we don't break xscreensaver
<ochosi> but yeah, primary goal is fixing the situation for clean installs with light-locker
<brainwash> and many have returned to xscreensaver
<elfy> then someone should say something 
<elfy> somewhere were people can find it easily ;)
<brainwash> ok, please do it then/now :)
<ochosi> brainwash: "many" of a vocal minority though. we don't know anything about the majority of xubuntu users...
<ochosi> elfy: yeah, as it's a secondary goal, i wanted this to be tested first with light-locker
<ochosi> in fact it should work fine with xscreensaver
<brainwash> it's the no.1 workaround mentioned by users
<ochosi> because those users can switch back to the old behavior
<ochosi> by flipping an xfconf switch in xfpm
<elfy> brainwash: it's the no 1 workround mentioned by the noisy ones 
<brainwash> and the silent ones will use it
<elfy> the noisy ones want all sorts of things that they aren't going to get
<bluesabre> well, if they remove the light-locker package, light-locker-settings should be removed as well
<ochosi> bluesabre: yeah, but the setting is a hidden one and if lls modified it, they have to change it back by hand
<bluesabre> I see
<ochosi> the best thing would be if xscreensaver worked with that logind-suspend too
<ochosi> if it does, then we have no problem
<bluesabre> gotcha
<ochosi> but since up to now we had xfpm handle that, i don't know whether it does work this way
<ochosi> frankly, this is all a bit messy and very very confusing
<ochosi> even for me...
<ochosi> every time i have to really focus in order not to forget how things should work exactly
<ochosi> i guess i should write a process diagram or something
<bluesabre> I'm just trying to keep up
<elfy> bluesabre: join the club ... 
<ochosi> yeah, i'll start something, give me a minute (or two)
<ochosi> http://dpaste.com/3QJ3PF1/
<ochosi> does this help^ ?
<ochosi> (another note: i don't know yet how things work with xscreensaver, but the save bet is to always go for option 2) as that is the "old behavior")
<ochosi> bluesabre: ^
<bluesabre> so, "lock on suspend" TRUE, "inhibit logind" FALSE
<bluesabre> "lock on suspend" FALSE, "inhibit logind" TRUE?
<ochosi> yeah
<ochosi> there's a side-effect though, all the other events (power-button, suspend-button) will also be handled by logind in case 1)
<bluesabre> gtk-inspector is built in with gnome 3.14, and can be activated with a key combo... we might want to block that combo in the greeter when the time comes http://blogs.gnome.org/mclasen/2014/05/15/introducing-gtkinspector/
<bluesabre> ok, I'll update the patch now.
<brainwash> ochosi: please no side effects :P
<ochosi> brainwash: you can always come up with a better patch ;)
<bluesabre> that side effect already exists though, right?
<brainwash> no
<ochosi> in the old, more hacky patch it doesn't
<bluesabre> I see
<ochosi> there only the lid-event is inhibited
<ochosi> or not inhibited
<ochosi> (to be more exact)
<ochosi> so shipping the hacky patch would be fine if it works with xscreensaver too
<brainwash> but how can you sru the patch if it breaks something which has been fixed previously?
<bluesabre> because power buttons are minor in comparison to losing work
<brainwash> lid-close event
<ochosi> i'll test now with xscreensaver...
<brainwash> xfpm won't inhibit it anymore and run the action specified via the settings dialog
<brainwash> or?
<brainwash> this is really confusing
<bluesabre> I'll quickly push the tweaked lls
<brainwash> so the user selects "do nothing on lid close", but the system will suspend due to logind being in command again
<ochosi> brainwash: yeah, so stop spreading confusion! :)
<brainwash> xD
<elfy> ochosi: anything I need to do with xscreensavr - other than install it and purge ll/lls ?
<brainwash> just doing my job.. brainwashing people
<ochosi> hehe
<ochosi> yeah,i never thought of it that way ;)
<ochosi> elfy: install it and disable ll, that should suffice
<ochosi> brb (hopefully)
<elfy> mmm 
<elfy> that just comes back to the desktop with no password
<ochosi> yeah, seems like it
<elfy> that wfm - when people complain - we can tell them to install ll/lls as that's what we're using now :p
<brainwash> what about the normal Xfce session?
<elfy> no idea brainwash - I use THAT as often as I suspend in real life ;)
<ochosi> ok, i'm trying with the less hacky patch now
<ochosi> bluesabre: i'll test now and control the settings by hand, just to be sure ;)
<brainwash> I mean we don't want fix and break something at the same time
<bluesabre> yeah, that usually comes with issues
<bluesabre> why is the normal Xfce session usually so messed up?
<brainwash> it is?
<brainwash> the xfce4 package does not depend on ll, but still uses xfpm
<bluesabre> usually it messes with my panel layout, font rendering, and other things
<bluesabre> ochosi: good, the package probably won't be live for a while
<ochosi> bluesabre: hmmm
<ochosi> either there's a problem in the package with the patch, or there's something wrong with the patch
<ochosi> g_object_set_property: object class 'XfpmXfconf' has no property named 'inhibit-logind'
<ochosi> disclaimer: so the xfpm package 1.2.0-3ubuntu5~trusty~ppa2 doesn't work
<bluesabre> there might be something missing
<bluesabre> the branch was ahead of the 1.2.0 release
<ochosi> but it confirms my suspicion
<bluesabre> so the diff only applied to where it was at the time
<ochosi> that xscreensaver isn't listening to logind, but needs to be called specifically by xfpm/xfsession on suspend
<bluesabre> so there might be something that is needed that was committed between 1.2.0 and that branch 
<bluesabre> I'll do some testing and figure out if something is missing
<ochosi> right
<ochosi> http://dpaste.com/3XQKDF1/
<knome> meeting time :)
<ochosi> so this is how things are according to my findings and testing so far
<ochosi> yup
<ochosi> !team | meeting-time!
<ubottu> meeting-time!: bluesabre, elfy, GridCube, jjfrv8, knome, lderan, micahg, mr_pouit, Noskcaj, ochosi, pleia2, skellat, slickymaster, Unit193
<slickymasterWork> o/
<ochosi> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Fri May 16 10:01:10 2014 UTC.  The chair is ochosi. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
<ochosi> hi everyone, just to know for sure, who's around?
<knome> o/
<slickymasterWork> o/
<bluesabre> \o
<elfy> o/
<ochosi> ok, just a small disclaimer, i'm still learning all this bot-business ;)
<ochosi> let's start with what's left from last time and update those items
<ochosi> knome: you had quite a few action-items from last time, want me to name them all or just wanna update them now?
<knome> all are done
<ochosi> i also ran the call for technical lead, so i guess the only open issue left is systemd ETA
<ochosi> #topic Open action items
<elfy> I hate driving the bot too ochosi ;)
<ochosi> #action Team: When is systemd landing?
<meetingology> ACTION: Team: When is systemd landing?
<ochosi> any news on that?
<Unit193> ochosi: Define "landing"
<ochosi> elfy: sorry, i should've prepared better
<ochosi> Unit193: well, i guess there are two interesting aspects
<elfy> ochosi: now worries - just letting you know I'd not be doing any differently :)
<elfy> s/no
<ochosi> 1) when will utopic have a functioning systemd stack that we can test/use
<ochosi> 2) will utopic already fully switch to systemd
<elfy> 1 - now
<ochosi> elfy: please #info ;)
<Unit193> ochosi: 1. It's in repo and usable.  2. It's not without quirks.  3. Not all service files are there, a couple ubuntu things only have upstart jobs.  4. Might not be default this cycle.
<ochosi> meh, #info folks :)
<elfy> :p
<elfy> #info systemd is in repo and usable - with quirks
<elfy> #info not all service files are there
<Unit193> I can name modemmanager and whoopsie.
<elfy> #info no concrete idea of when it will be default
<brainwash> but how does this affect xubuntu-desktop?
<ochosi> i'm not entirely sure
<ochosi> from what i remember, upstart user-sessions can still be run
<ochosi> not sure what happens to e.g. the indicators
<ochosi> brainwash: wanna investigate that?
<Unit193> user sessions are still upstart.
<brainwash> isn't it too early?
<ochosi> (or: does someone else know)
<ochosi> brainwash: why would it be too early?
<ochosi> the full stack is there and usable
<brainwash> I mean the upstart user session
<brainwash> if it will stay or go
<elfy> quote from pitti's blog "To clarify, there is nofixed date/plan/deadline when this will be done, in particular it might well last more than one release cycle. So weâll âreleaseâ (i. e. switch to it as a default) when itâs read"
<ochosi> ok
<ochosi> that can obviously happen any cycle then
<ochosi> guess we need to follow the status of systemd in unity
<Unit193> There's two blueprints to follow on that.
<elfy> seems so
<ochosi> we could link those to one of our blueprints
<ochosi> just to keep them on the radar
<elfy> that makes sense 
<ochosi> elfy: blueprint-master, wanna #action that? :)
<elfy> if you like :)
<Unit193> There's info on trello.
<elfy> Unit193: yep - thanks :)
<ochosi> #action elfy will link the systemd-related blueprints to xubuntu's blueprint to keep development on the radar
<meetingology> ACTION: elfy will link the systemd-related blueprints to xubuntu's blueprint to keep development on the radar
<elfy> ochosi: which xubuntu blueprint :)
<elfy> we're missing a dev one ?
<ochosi> elfy: wait, i thought *you* are the master of blueprints? ;)
<elfy> oh no ;)
<elfy> I just built them for you :p
<ochosi> hehe
<ochosi> i think we oughta link it to the features blueprint
<ochosi> there wasn't a separate development blueprint in the 14.04 cycle, iirc
<elfy> ok :)
<elfy> yea - just looked at 14.04
<ochosi> righty, so let's wrap this part up
<ochosi> or are there any more things wrt systemd?
<ochosi> #Team updates
<ochosi> are there any team updates?
<elfy> not from me
<ochosi> neither from me :)
<slickymasterWork> neither from me
<ochosi> s/neither/nor/
<bluesabre> #info: menulibre 2.0.4 in unstable and utopic, will sru back into trusty next week
<ochosi> cool
<bluesabre> fixes a bunch of knome's bugs
<knome> #info knome has a CSS update pending on IS/pleia2
<bluesabre> and the menu corruption
<ochosi> bluesabre: do you know whether our 1.8.5 greeter is synced to utopic already? (was in debian 9 days ago)
<knome> that is, my part is done
<ochosi> hm, doesn't seem like it is in utopic already
<bluesabre> doesn't seem like it
<bluesabre> I'll see whats holding it up
<bluesabre> probably stuck in m-o-m
<ochosi> #action bluesabre to follow up debian-sync of lightdm-gtk-greeter 1.8.5 to utopic, then SRU back to trusty
<meetingology> ACTION: bluesabre to follow up debian-sync of lightdm-gtk-greeter 1.8.5 to utopic, then SRU back to trusty
<ochosi> any other team updates?
<elfy> ochosi: you can mark my action item as done :p
<ochosi> elfy: i guess you can do that yourself :) thanks!
<ochosi> if only all action items would be done so quickly ;)
<ochosi> (i guess we just need to assign them all to elfy)
<ochosi> ok, carrying on
<bluesabre> # action bluesabre to SRU menulibre-2.0.4 back to trusty
<bluesabre> #action bluesabre to SRU menulibre-2.0.4 back to trusty
<meetingology> ACTION: bluesabre to SRU menulibre-2.0.4 back to trusty
<ochosi> ah, more items bluesabre?
<bluesabre> just attaching to my #info from before
<elfy> #info features blueprint has links to systemd blueprints
<bluesabre> I'm done
<ochosi> ok, ty
<ochosi> #topic Announcements
<ochosi> #info ochosi ran a call for Xubuntu technical lead on the mailinglist, there'll be a vote on the nominees in approximately two weeks at a meeting
<ochosi> any other announcements or shall we start the discussions?
<knome> #info knome handed ochosi over they keys to LP teams
<ochosi> ok, anything else?
<knome> no that i can think of
<elfy> not from here
<bluesabre> nope
<ochosi> #topic Discussion
<ochosi> #subtopic Create a testing PPA common to -team
<knome> ftr, i should probably be under -dev
<knome> *it
<ochosi> we've already started using the xubuntu-dev PPA for testing
<slickymasterWork> +1 on that knome 
<ochosi> but i was wondering whether it would be helpful or too much if we had one PPA per release
<knome> especially now that -team has the other privileges right (no access to LP team admin)
<ochosi> e.g. trusty-staging (for stuff we want to SRU)
<ochosi> or utopic-staging (for stuff that we want to get uploaded)
<knome> one per purpose sounds good to me
<ochosi> elfy: ^ ?
<elfy> logically that sounds right
<slickymasterWork> it does makes sense
<knome> unless it's a lot of work
<elfy> that ^^
<knome> (it isn't)
<ochosi> bluesabre: what do you think?
<elfy> I'm happy to go with the flow on this
<bluesabre> we'll just need micahg to create the PPAs, then members of xubuntu-dev can push packages to it
<ochosi> knome: so one per purpose = xubuntu-staging (holding the bugfixes for all releases)
<knome> ochosi, probably better to do it per release/purpose
<knome> ochosi, as you already kind of proposed...
<ochosi> yup, just wanted to make sure
<elfy> just one thought here 
<bluesabre> team members can also contribute packages and simon and I can sponsor them
<knome> bluesabre, i'd argue ~xubuntu-project-lead should own ~xubuntu-dev
<ochosi> we can also do an additional PPA with new applications we're considering to include
<elfy> if we've got a trusty one I assume that stuff that's been dealt with will be removed once it's released properly?
<ochosi> (only if they aren't in the repos, obviously)
<ochosi> elfy: yeah
<ochosi> same goes for any other release
<bluesabre> knome: that would be a good, sustainable idea
<knome> elfy, or just get obsolete (newer version number in archive)
<ochosi> if stuff to utopic has been uploaded, it'll be removed
<elfy> ok 
<ochosi> is "-staging" a clear enough suffix?
<ochosi> any other ideas?
<knome> for SRU's, it can be trusty-sru(-staging)
<ochosi> well, the question is will we really have so many packages that it justifies having a separate SRU PPA
<knome> as long as the name is communicated to the QA team, it's ok :P
<knome> wlel,
<knome> *well
<bluesabre> trusty-proposed, utopic-proposed?
<knome> i think it would be a good idea to have that, because then person X could install trusty and the -sru PPA
<bluesabre> (following in step with upstream)
<knome> and see if there are still high-impact bugs that need fixing
<knome> mixing -proposed there might be just confusing
<elfy> bluesabre: I'd rather not give people any chance of accidentally enabling standard proposed
<knome> "i have the -proposed archive enabled"
<knome> "which?"
<bluesabre> ah
<bluesabre> fair points
<ochosi> mhm, i agree, proposed is probably confusing
<ochosi> we can also call it -bugfix
<elfy> staging works for me 
<knome> that's ambiguous ;)
<knome> either -staging or -sru or -sru-staging
<knome> but see my point for a separate SRU PPA
<elfy> knome: +1 to that and the thinking 
<ochosi> sure, i agree it *might* be useful, but that's mostly interesting for trusty
<ochosi> as it is LTS, we might want to SRU more to it
<knome> sure, we could have -sru PPAs for LTS releases only or so
<ochosi> ok, so let's create a trusty-staging, utopic-staging and trusty-SRU ppa?
<elfy> yep
<bluesabre> question
<ochosi> packages that have been tested from trusty-staging can be moved to trusty-SRU
<ochosi> bluesabre: shoot
<bluesabre> ok
<knome> ...i'd probably make that trusty-sru-staging
<bluesabre> that answered it
<ochosi> ok :)
<knome> though not every update is SRU
<bluesabre> maybe trusty-updates?
<knome> updates is a used name as well
<ochosi> humm, again with the confusion :)
<knome> so yeah, using -staging everywhere is a good idea
<ochosi> ok, let's wrap this up, we have a few more things to discuss
<ochosi> knome: can i create those PPAs with my current LP rights or does micahg have to set them up?
<knome> i don't know
<knome> i never was involved with the -dev team
<bluesabre> only admins can create PPAs
<knome> but again, i'd argue ~xubuntu-project-lead should own ~xubuntu-dev
<ochosi> #action ochosi to investigate and set up trusty-staging and utopic-staging PPAs
<meetingology> ACTION: ochosi to investigate and set up trusty-staging and utopic-staging PPAs
<knome> tech lead can be an admin
<knome> xpl necessarily doesn't need to be
<ochosi> let's discuss the -sru PPA again when it becomes necessary?
<ochosi> or shall we just create it as well for trusty only
<knome> yep
<knome> let's discuss it when we need it and when micah is around
<ochosi> ok
<knome> since he's the owner/admin
<ochosi> #info A PPA specifically SRUs shall be discussed with micahg 
<ochosi> elfy: i guess next up we could either talk trello or ML proposal by knome, any preference from your side?
<knome> not from me
<elfy> well - not much to say about trello tbh - it's all been said previously :)
<ochosi> elfy: ok, so the idea is to use trello *additionally* to blueprints?
<elfy> for detail when it's necessary for other's to know that detail
<knome> ochosi, want to #topic?
<ochosi> #subtopic Use Trello
<knome> to me it looks like trello boards can be useful for subteams
<knome> eg. the qa team/people can cooperate via those
<ochosi> elfy: so we would link the trello pages in blueprints?
<ochosi> or how would that work
<elfy> ochosi: I guess that would work 
<elfy> but if some do and some don't then it's pretty much a dead end
<ochosi> yeah
<ochosi> as you can see from this scenario, it might lead to a slightly increased administrational overhead if we use 2 systems :)
<elfy> and if sub-teams do - there's not really any cohesiveness
<ochosi> but if the gain justifies it, it's ok
<elfy> I'd say 
<elfy> if we do it then - we'd be better to have a 'team' board - at least then people can see the whole picture
<elfy> subteams if they want to have a board of their own could link it in the team one
<knome> how would that differ from the status site?
<elfy> what staus site?
<ochosi> won't we get a huge gigantic picture if we do one for team?
<knome> status.ubuntu.com
<elfy> knome: that shows as much detail as the blueprint
<ochosi> elfy: yeah, i see your point on being able to add comments/detail
<knome> so you want a whole picture with all the details?
<ochosi> but the problem is, having that in one huge trello page will probably also be overwhelming
<ochosi> what do other members of the team think on this? slickymasterWork? bluesabre?
<elfy> you know what - I haven't got the energy for this - just take it off the agenda 
<knome> i know some teams have used the bluepring whiteboards previously
<elfy> I really don't care anymore
<knome> it's not exactly trello though...
<knome> because no edit locks and stuff
<slickymasterWork> I really felt that trello was a good asset to -qa during the T cycle
<bluesabre> trello is handy, as long as the links are discoverable
<ochosi> suggestion: what if we set up a trello board for all the current blueprints items so we see how it would look in action?
<slickymasterWork> at least I rely more on trello than on the -qa blueprint
<knome> ochosi, that's a good idea
<ochosi> i'm ok with trying this for one cycle and then evaluating it
<ochosi> so seeing whether administration has increased significantly and how ppl feel about using it
<ochosi> one thing is important though: i still want blueprints to be updated, because those *do* help, with bugreports linked etc they have features that trello doesn't have
<ochosi> elfy: would you be ok with this ^?
<elfy> ochosi: the QA blueprint was kept up to date in the last cycle ;)
<slickymasterWork> yes
<ochosi> sure, just saying that using trello would still mean we have to keep the other (slow, clunky) website up to date too ;)
<ochosi> you can't just eat the fresh sandwich and let the old one rot
<elfy> it didn't really add much to my workload tbh - and the QA blueprint had probably more on it than any of the others
<ochosi> ok, great
<knome> ochosi, wait, are you upbringing us now? ;)
<elfy> ochosi: well - I can set it up if you want - just want people to get an account if they've not got one
 * knome eats the fresh sandwich
<ochosi> elfy: that'd be great. then send an email to the mailinglist about it?
<ochosi> i'd personally like to vote on it, if you're ok with this
<ochosi> ideally we could give ppl a chance to vote via the mailinglist too, this time
<elfy> ochosi: that's fine with me of course
<elfy> BUT 
<elfy> can we deal with the m/l and make it moderated first :p
<ochosi> hehe
<ochosi> well that's the next topic
<elfy> :p
<ochosi> #action elfy to set up a trello "master" board for -team and send an email about it to the mailinglist
<meetingology> ACTION: elfy to set up a trello "master" board for -team and send an email about it to the mailinglist
<elfy> after we decide to use it or not :)
<ochosi> #info the team will vote on the trello board after it has been set up
<elfy> oh right 
<ochosi> #subtopic Mailinglist/s
<elfy> I thought you wanted to do that the other way round?
<ochosi> err, how?
<ochosi> first set it up, then let ppl test it
<ochosi> then vote, no?=
<elfy> mmm
<ochosi> we can still let ppl vote on the mailinglist anyway, btw
<elfy> would it not be better for us to vote first - and then do the work?
<ochosi> it was done already for the XPL election
<elfy> I'm easy either way though :)
<ochosi> yeah, but not all of -team might've used trello before
<knome> i'd argue it's hard to take an informed vote unless you've seen how it'd turn out
<elfy> ok - makes sense 
<ochosi> i think it could be good for an informed decision to see it in action
<knome> ...
<knome> is it echoing in here?
<ochosi> but i understand it's work...
<knome> we don't have too many work items on blueprints yet
<ochosi> ok, let's get on the mailinglists
<elfy> ochosi: yea - ok - I'll get it set up soon and then go from there
<knome> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/xubuntu-devel/2014-May/010193.html
<ochosi> (as we're already going overtime)
<ochosi> thanks elfy 
<knome> overtime? who specified the meeting lasted for an hour? :P
<elfy> bert
<ochosi> #info knome sent a proposal for mailinglists to the mailinglist
<knome> ;)
<ochosi> (i like the repetition there ;))
<knome> ^ link above
<ochosi> knome: well, link it?
<knome> i did already
<ochosi> the bot picks it up that way?
<knome> yep
<ochosi> oh, great, wasn't sure
<ochosi> so, any thoughts on this proposal?
<ochosi> bluesabre, slickymasterWork, elfy ?
<ochosi> others?
<knome> i think it's the awesomest proposal ever
<elfy> I'm happy with it 
<elfy> I'd not go as far as knome though :p
<slickymasterWork> I strongly give a +1 on knome's proposal
<bluesabre> I agree with it
<ochosi> yup, i'm also +1 on it
<elfy> and I've got a +0.99 
<knome> on a more serious note, if it doesn't work, it's not a huge thing to revert
<ochosi> should we have a formal vote?
<elfy> ochosi: I think so 
<knome> we have no quorum
<knome> so it'd have to continue on the mailing list
<slickymasterWork> yeah, so it's logged~
<elfy> and then take it to the list for team to vote
 * elfy types slower ... 
<ochosi> ok, let's start here and let the others vote on the ML
<ochosi> #vote Should we implement knome's proposal in our development mailinglist?
<meetingology> Please vote on: Should we implement knome's proposal in our development mailinglist?
<meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (for private voting, private message me with 'vote +1/-1/+0 #channelname)
<elfy> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from elfy
<ochosi> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from ochosi
<slickymasterWork> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from slickymasterWork
<knome> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from knome
<jjfrv8> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from jjfrv8
<ochosi> oh hey jjfrv8 :) didn't see you there
<elfy> oooh a lurker :p
<knome> o hai jjfrv8 :)
<ochosi> bluesabre?
<slickymasterWork> jjfrv8, o/
<bluesabre> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from bluesabre
<ochosi> #endvote
<meetingology> Voting ended on: Should we implement knome's proposal in our development mailinglist?
<meetingology> Votes for:6 Votes against:0 Abstentions:0
<meetingology> Motion carried
<knome> heh:)
<elfy> lol
<ochosi> knome: so much for not having a quorum :p
<knome> well we don't
<ochosi> wait, how many are we? crap :)
<ochosi> we need two more
<knome> 14
<knome> yep
<slickymasterWork> where's Unit193?
<elfy> ochosi: shame you can set votes required in here
<ochosi> fell asleep maybe...
<slickymasterWork> lol
<elfy> then it wouldn't have passed :)
<ochosi> #action ochosi to send an email to the mailinglist to continue the voting on knome's mailinglist proposal
<meetingology> ACTION: ochosi to send an email to the mailinglist to continue the voting on knome's mailinglist proposal
<knome> do we want to allow private voting? :P
<elfy> perhaps that should be added to the bot in here - it's likely to happen everytime we vote on anything
<ochosi> nah
<knome> lderan!!!
<ochosi> (that was directed at knome, not elfy)
 * knome gathered
<elfy> ochosi: I guessed too :p
<ochosi> ok, we have two more discussion-topics
<ochosi> i have to run in 10-15mins though
<ochosi> just saying...
<knome> heh
<knome> btw
 * slickymasterWork also
<elfy> both mine - both quick
<knome> #votesrequired <count>
<knome> Specifies the number of votes needed until the vote will pass. Example: #votesrequired 2 means you either need an aggregate of +2 or -2 to pass. 
<ochosi> oh, :)
<ochosi> #subtopic Planning for milestone images
<ochosi> elfy: you got the floor
<elfy> So - we need to make a decision on whether to go with Alpha's or not this cycle
<elfy> or one of them
<ochosi> any pros/cons from your side?
<elfy> I'd suggest I'll mail -team once we've got m/l moderated (or not)
<ochosi> that's ok
<elfy> not really - I just need to know as early as possible
<ochosi> i'm fine with that
<ochosi> shall we just make it an action item and move on?
<elfy> yep - wfm
<ochosi> #action elfy to send email to -team about planning for milestone images (e.g. shall we participate in alphas?)
<meetingology> ACTION: elfy to send email to -team about planning for milestone images (e.g. shall we participate in alphas?)
<ochosi> #subtopic Assistive tech testing
<elfy> assistive tech is currently on the Settings Manager - I AM removing it from that test
<elfy> the question is - do we need to actually test that or not - if not all I need do is remove it - if we do I'll need to build a test for it
<ochosi> what does/did the test do?
<ochosi> test the settings manager itself or the subdialogs?
<bluesabre> gotta run, bbl
<elfy> I spoke to Nick Skaggs - it seems that Ubuntu only test the install screen reader - no other tests done
<ochosi> bluesabre: ttyl!
<elfy> ochosi: it tests sticky keys and the like 
<slickymasterWork> and mouse emulation
<elfy> http://packages.qa.ubuntu.com/qatracker/testcases/1574/info
<elfy> last section of that
<ochosi> right
<elfy> it does need to be removed from Settings Manager - but whether we test it or not is the issue for me
<ochosi> frankly, i don't have a strong opinion on this
<elfy> if there's something wriong with it - we'd not be fixing it 
<ochosi> is that generally a rule for testcases, that we test stuff that we'd also fix
<ochosi> ?
<elfy> not as such
 * ochosi is a bit out of the loop with QA
<ochosi> i'd trust you as QA lead or others more involved in QA to discuss this and take an informed decision
<elfy> we try to test things that we use - this is just a hang on in the wrong place
<elfy> ok - well as I said I WILL be removing it - today :p
<ochosi> ok :)
<elfy> I'm easy to build a new testcase if needed 
<ochosi> sounds good to me
<ochosi> wanna #info or ÃÂ¤action that?
<elfy> I'll talk more to Nick
<ochosi> ok
<elfy> not really a need - I got the bug - and the MP waiting for me to send :)
<ochosi> ok
<ochosi> so we can move on?
<elfy> yep - I'm good now thanks :)
<ochosi> ok, thanks elfy  :)
<ochosi> #topic Schedule next meeting
<ochosi> as discussed previously, we could cycle meeting times this cycle
<ochosi> so the next meeting could be at a different time of the day
<ochosi> i'm still happy that this worked so well and so many of you showed up today
<ochosi> so thanks everyone!
<elfy> ochosi: so how about this 
<elfy> cycle it through team leads -  team name alphabetically 
<elfy> puts QA at the end :p
<ochosi> haha
<ochosi> meh, artwork, i need to do the first one ;)
<ochosi> that was your plan all along, right?
<elfy> lol
<ochosi> we could cycle through team leads and the respective team lead
<ochosi> 1) decides on the meeting time
<ochosi> 2) chairs the meeting
<slickymasterWork> lol, I'm hanging by a thread on the one after artwork
<elfy> :p
<elfy> that makes some sense - and people can call ad-hoc ones as is normal when needed
<ochosi> so i can do another meeting at a different time of the day
<knome> sounds like a good plan
<ochosi> question is whether next week is too early
<slickymasterWork> I gotta run now, will be back after lunch
<elfy> and XPL can call general meeting when he wants to 
<ochosi> the 2 weeks rhythm worked fine in 14.04, no?
<elfy> ochosi: appeared to 
<knome> we had a one week interval at some point
<elfy> and we'll have other avenues more useful - m/l without distraction 
<knome> near the end at least
<ochosi> mhm
<ochosi> meh, i also wanted to discuss blueprints and ppl starting to fill them up
<ochosi> too late now
<elfy> ochosi: m/l :D
<ochosi> #action ochosi to send an email to the mailinglist about a proposal to do team meetings this cycle
<meetingology> ACTION: ochosi to send an email to the mailinglist about a proposal to do team meetings this cycle
<elfy> I assume you'll be doing what the last one did - talk to leads about blueprints
<ochosi> yeah, i'm considering to wait with that until the mailinglist is closed
<ochosi> blueprints are a dangerous mailinglist topic in terms of getting unasked responses
<ochosi> (ÃÂ  la: "please implement *this*, this is sooo important.")
<ochosi> i'll announce the next meeting time at some point then
<ochosi> need to check my calendar...
<elfy> ok 
<ochosi> guess that's it
<ochosi> #endmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting ended Fri May 16 11:23:41 2014 UTC.  
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/xubuntu-devel/2014/xubuntu-devel.2014-05-16-10.01.moin.txt
<ochosi> thanks everyone!
<elfy> thanks ochosi 
<ochosi> ok, gotta go, have a nice day everyone!
<elfy> cya ochosi 
<ochosi> seeya elfy 
<knome> meeting minutes are up
<elfy> ty knome 
<elfy> knome: you got time to look at a MP?
<elfy> or slickymasterWork 
<elfy> https://code.launchpad.net/~elfy/ubuntu-manual-tests/1319137/+merge/219822
<elfy> bbiab
<slickymasterWork> elfy, on it
<slickymasterWork> elfy: https://code.launchpad.net/~elfy/ubuntu-manual-tests/1319137/+merge/219822
<slickymasterWork> done
<elfy> ty slickymasterWork :)
<slickymasterWork> np elfy, my pleasure
<elfy> :)
<elfy> all synced now
 * elfy wanders off again for a while
<jjfrv8> elfy, my Trello account name is @jjfrv8
<elfy> jjfrv8: added you - assume it's jjfrv8 :)
<jjfrv8> elfy, got it. Thanks.
<elfy> :)
<ochosi> elfy: re: team board, currently it seems to only hold links to the blueprints, is that what it should be?
<ochosi> or is it simply not complete yet?
<elfy> ochosi: yea, I'd say it was up to those in teams to do what they want with their lists - only way they'll know if it works for them
<ochosi> right, but how are you planning to handle the qa list then?
<elfy> I'm not at all sure ... 
<ochosi> :)
<ochosi> well you should set an example for others, otherwise how would they know how they can benefit? (assuming that some havent used trello before)
<elfy> I might just add people to the QA one 
<elfy> if I add the QA lists to the team board it'll seem like a hostile takeover :p
<ochosi> heh, no it might actually look like it should, no?
<elfy> ok - help for trello works \o/
<elfy> moved all the QA lists to the team board
<elfy> ochosi: well sort of, depends how many lists sub-teams decide they need :)
<ochosi> humm, that's a bit what i was afraid of to be honest
<ochosi> that you cannot easily collapse these lists
<ochosi> so if we want "the full overview", it'll be huge
<ochosi> otherwise we might just end up with what knome mentioned earlier, boards per team
<elfy> which was why I left QA seperate - so if someone needs to know something specific look there
<elfy> mmm 
<elfy> let me think 
<ochosi> right, i presumed there was a nice way to get this "full overview", i thought you mentioned that as something you'd want in the meeting, but i might misremember that
<ochosi> (the ideal solution would be a better, user-friendlier launchpad i guess)
<elfy> that's probably a convergence of me not explaining and others thinking I meant something else :p
<ochosi> well at least it means that it makes sense to set trello up so others really understand what it means to use it :)
<elfy> just playing on the QA one
<elfy> now that it's empty :p
<ochosi> eheh
<elfy> ochosi: played with that - ripped it apart - left some notes so people can see how filtering works
<brainwash> ochosi: reassign bug 1310264 to xubu default settings and apply the proposed workaround?
<ubottu> bug 1310264 in xfce4-whiskermenu-plugin (Ubuntu) "Can't search/find items in the Settings Manager" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1310264
<ochosi> brainwash: i'm +1 on that as my comment suggests, i just have a few other things to do right now, can you take care of it? (link it to the utopic features blueprint and re-assign it to x-d-s)
<brainwash> oh, so no chance to get it in for trusty?
<brainwash> it's a bit tricky I guess
<ochosi> well even if we SRU it to trusty, it needs to go through utopic
<ochosi> so we should target that first anyhow
<brainwash> yes, but we could leave it assigned to the trusty blueprint, or?
<brainwash> changes will be carried on to utopic anyway
<ochosi> you can leave the bugreport linked to the 14.04.1 blueprint, but i'd want it to be assigned to utopic features too
<brainwash> ok
<ochosi> ty
<brainwash> bug 1024482 too? it's the missing busy cursor problem caused by the greeter
<ubottu> bug 1024482 in unity-greeter (Ubuntu) "Mouse cursor theme does not change from default after login" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1024482
<brainwash> feature or bugfix?
<ochosi> give me a minute (or a few), haven't seen that one yet
<brainwash> the linked debian report explains the problem better
<ochosi> ok, will look at that
<ochosi> just gotta finish something else first...
<brainwash> sure
<brainwash> ali1234: is your mwm hints patch still needed for gtk 3.12?
<brainwash> maybe I'm just confused about what's going on
<elfy> ochosi brainwash - I'm going to assume I had a glitch or something with parole, reinstalled since - cpu usage appears to be normal http://pastebin.com/dcGcxWTJ
<brainwash> elfy: same audio file?
<elfy> brainwash: that's a few audio files 
<elfy> and it doesn't matter if it's the same file - it wasn't just one - and if you think I'd remember which out of 36k music files it was ... 
<brainwash> ah ok
<elfy> :)
<elfy> sigh - bluesabre - that ping was supposed to be for you ^^ :)
<elfy> sorry brainwash - I wondered what blue sabre was doing here this time of the day lol
<brainwash> :D
<ochosi> elfy: i told them before one of them should change nicks :D
<elfy> ha ha ha 
<brainwash> bluesabre did
<brainwash> maybe he forgot about it again
<elfy> elopio thinks I should change mine - no chance :p
<knome> brainwash, you could just /nick brainwashed
<brainwash> I'm not brainwashing myself
<ochosi> or s/brainwash/brainwasher/
<brainwash> maybe
<brainwash> but only for 1 day :)
<ali1234> brainwash: don't know/don't care
<ali1234> i have no interest in supporting gnome's poor design decisions
<andrzejr> what is the package name of the app-menu indicator triggering #1181134?
<andrzejr> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/xfce4-indicator-plugin/+bug/1181134
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1181134 in xfce4-indicator-plugin (Ubuntu) "xfce4-indicator-plugin crashed with SIGSEGV in g_type_check_instance_cast()" [High,Triaged]
#xubuntu-devel 2014-05-17
<lderan> knome, required vote count is a good idea, shall add it to the list :)
<elfy> I thought so 
<knome> lderan, it might exist already...
<lderan> will quickly check
<elfy> it can be used in -meeting afaik - we were talking about it the other day in a meeting
<elfy> that's the reason I knew and mentioned it yesterday :)
<knome> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Sat May 17 11:44:09 2014 UTC.  The chair is knome. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
<knome> #Vote tet
<meetingology> Please vote on: tet
<meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (for private voting, private message me with 'vote +1/-1/+0 #channelname)
<knome> #votesrequired 2
<meetingology> votes now need 2 to be passed
<knome> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from knome
<knome> #endvote
<meetingology> Voting ended on: tet
<meetingology> Votes for:1 Votes against:0 Abstentions:0
<meetingology> Motion denied
<knome> heh
<elfy> :)
<lderan> :P
<knome> well, denied isn't the right one either
<knome> #endmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting ended Sat May 17 11:44:41 2014 UTC.  
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/xubuntu-devel/2014/xubuntu-devel.2014-05-17-11.44.moin.txt
<lderan> what should it say instead? required votes not reached?
<knome> lderan, yeah, i guess
<elfy> try it again - with 3 of us voting - one of each
<elfy> that would be the right wording for only having one +1 
<knome> elfy, #votesrequired means
<knome> err
<knome> it actually means that N votes for or against is needed
<knome> so practically,
<knome> it'd need 3 -1 votes to be denied
<elfy> no real use in our scenario :p
<knome> no
<elfy> actually - we'd just set it to 8 I guess
<knome> yep
<knome> but if there was no +8 or -8
<knome> the bot would say "denied"
<knome> which is wrong
<elfy> it's right 
<elfy> the bot doesn'tr know about the mailing list :)
<knome> it's not; there just isn't a decision yet
<knome> sure
<knome> but with +7, no vote is exactly "denied" either
<elfy> would the bot use different wording here to elsewhere?
<knome> it's just "not carried"
<knome> it could use the same wording everywhere :)
<elfy> then we shouldn't go changing the wording willy nilly :)
<lderan> from the code if the vote reqauired was 4, and 4 people voted +1 and 4 people votes -1, it would actualy be carried
<knome_web> huhu
<elfy> lderan: lol
<knome_web> actually,
<lderan> might have to changed that slightly
<knome_web> let's forget #votesrequired for a moment
<elfy> :)
<knome_web> what if there was a #quorum
<knome_web> set that to 8
<elfy> good point
<knome_web> and if no -8 or +8 happens, then it says "no quorum"
<knome_web> actually, it'd have to be able to count +0 votes
<elfy> it should count vote - not vote value I guess
<knome_web> right
<knome_web> yeah, that sounds correct
<elfy> for quorum at least
<knome_web> count the vote value, and if value is at least quorum, carry/deny
<knome_web> if not, say no quorum
<knome_web> (but nonetheless, output the votes)
<knome_web> but... that's not how we always want it
<elfy> there was a conversation about all this with the membership board on Thursday - quorum and vote value
<knome_web> that's a fair case for regular votes
<knome_web> well, hmm
<knome_web> then just set quorum value to 14 :P
<lderan> :P
<elfy> it'd not work for them - they need the 'value' to be +4 
<knome_web> yeah
<elfy> anyway 
<knome_web> well that's why i was considering #quorum
<knome_web> not changing the existing functionality
<elfy> quorum would be useful - people don't have to use it 
<knome_web> because there clearly is use cases for that as well
<knome_web> how would the bot handle the situation when both are set?
<knome_web> #quorum 5
<knome_web> #votesrequired 2
<elfy> would need at least 3 +1's and 5 votes total?
<knome_web> 2 +1's :P
<knome_web> or 2 -1's
<elfy> remove +0 
<elfy> :)
<lderan> poor +0
<elfy> no fences - too sharp :D
<knome_web> i think it has some added value
<knome_web> i mean, yeah, it definitely does
<knome_web> it can help fill the quorum
<knome_web> "i'm around, but don't want to vote either way2
<elfy> :)
<knome_web> i'm thinking a very specific situation..
<knome_web> #quorum 8
<knome_web> 7 persons vote +0
<knome_web> 1 person votes +1
<knome_web> well, the bot says it's carried
<knome_web> ;)
<elfy> yea - which is an issue for lots of teams
<knome_web> so... should #votesrequired always be quorum/2 when quorum is set?
<lderan> can have it so it has to have a majority when used with quorum?
<elfy> I'd argue that it's an issue for any team that isn't Ubuntu Mathematicians
<knome_web> lderan: i guess yeah unless #votesrequired is explicitly set to something else
<elfy> lderan: a value majority or a votes majority
<knome_web> elfy: question.. does the membership team really need it like this:
<knome_web> if one votes -1, practically five need to vote +1 ?
<knome_web> or would it be fine if they knew that there was at least four +1's ?
<elfy> yea - though they too - take things to m/l if needed - but I don't want to get into the specifics right now - I'm not really here lol 
<knome_web> ;)
<elfy> I just sat down to roll a smoke lol 
<lderan> vote majority? so if 8 vote 0 and 1 votes +1 it would count it as not carried? 5 would need to vote +1
<elfy> mmm 
<elfy> hang on 
<knome_web> though
<knome_web> the real question is:
<knome_web> if quorum is 8, the real team size is 14/15
<knome_web> shouldn't the bot just understand that in the situation lderan pasted
<knome_web> and say it needs more votes
<knome_web> or should we actually not use #quorum
<knome_web> but #voters
<knome_web> which would be the maximum amount of people voting
<knome_web> and quorum would be calculated from that
<lderan> mmm
<knome_web> then setting
<knome_web> #voters 14
<knome_web> would practically work like the XPL voting
<knome_web> but if it was a regular vote, and we knew there would be 6 people around,
<knome_web> we could do
<knome_web> #votesrequired 4
<knome_web> no, that doesn't work
<knome_web> or does, but then #voters is useless
<elfy> would it work if there was a 'voter' who could have a number set by chair - #voters is a list of names - but you might have 9 people away and then voting on m/l
<elfy> so for example #voteexternal=9
<knome_web> #voters <nick> <nick> ... Set the qualified voters. Use '#voters all' to reset. 
<elfy> then you have #voters = those present
<knome_web> or just assign everybody to it?
<knome_web> and the bot knows how many are off because they didn't vote
<elfy> knome_web: but would that work if elfy is in the list - but isn't in -devel when the vote takes places
<elfy> does it not need the irc nick?
<knome_web> it would work
<knome_web> because it could just check if elfy voted
<knome_web> whether elfy was around or not
<elfy> ok
<knome_web> so...
<knome_web> what if we used that
<knome_web> and then #quorum on/off
<knome_web> is quorum is off, vote value within available people wins
<elfy> logically sounds like it should work for us
<knome_web> if it's off, vote amount wins if enough votes
<knome_web> err,,
<knome_web> if it's on :P
<elfy> and quorum=voters/2+1
<knome_web> floor(voters/2)+1
<knome_web> but yeah.
<lderan> cool
<knome_web> btw, we need to be able to remove voters
<knome_web> iirc, #voters just adds voters
<knome_web> can't remove
<knome_web> (except with #voters all)
<elfy> why would you need to remove voters during a meeting?
<knome_web> if we use a factoid that outputs #voters
<knome_web> then knome suddenly has a "knome_web" nick
<knome_web> and we don't want to break the quorum value
<elfy> mmm yea 
<knome_web> then we need to remove knome and add knome_web
<knome_web> (and if voters are removed, their votes should be removed too)
<elfy> from current vote I assume
<knome_web> yep
<elfy> sounds good
<ochosi> somehow i only receive a selection of the emails from the dev-mailinglist
<ochosi> anyone else here having trouble with receiving the emails
<elfy> ochosi: http://www.zimagez.com/zimage/screenshot-170514-181951.php
<elfy> that's what I've received - what are you missing - they appear to match https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/xubuntu-devel/2014-May/thread.html
<ochosi> elfy: yeah, didn't receive GridCube's and pleia2's message...
<ochosi> very odd
<ochosi> knome's i did receive
<elfy> ochosi: perhaps the issue with your xfce mail address ?
<ochosi> i dunno, i sent a testmail to myself today, that arrived normally
<elfy> no idea I'm afraid
<elfy> knome can't let go then - still XPL on his mail sig :D
<ochosi> heh
<ochosi> yeah
<benonsoftware>  /msg jose Hiyas
<benonsoftware> Err. -.-
#xubuntu-devel 2014-05-18
<knome> elfy, want to help triage bug 1320627?
<ubottu> bug 1320627 in ubuntu-release-upgrader (Ubuntu) "sudo do-release-upgrade caused system to go text-terminal mode and upgrade failed." [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1320627
<elfy> knome: not about much this afternoon, I've looked at bug triage wiki page before - too much writing 
<knome> heh
<knome> well confirming then
<knome> we know the bug info is very slim, but... meh
<elfy> and anyway - I'd mark that bug invalid and tell them to see if they get the same issue with a supported version
<knome> how come supported version?
<elfy> not something that was EOL 3 months ago
<elfy>  InstallationMedia: Xubuntu 13.04 "Raring Ringtail" - Release amd64 (20130423.1)
<knome> 13.04 is just the installation media
<knome> my installation media is 11.10
<elfy> oh yea
<knome> it is a supported upgrade ;)
<elfy> is it?
<knome> the actual upgrade is 13.10 -> 14.04
<knome> you're confusing installationmedia with the version that the system was before upgrading
<elfy> then that just goes to show you that I'm not suited to bug triage :p
<knome> :P
<elfy> and I see nothing on there that says it's13.10 to 14.04
<knome> mh
<elfy> knome: can't confirm it - do-release-upgrade works perfectly for me - thought it was obviously a vm test
<knome> mmh,
<knome> yeah, it's not clear what caused that...
<elfy> appeared to crash when configuring /etc/ssh/ssh_config
<knome> mmh
<pleia2> elfy: social mediaed your latest testing email
<elfy> awesome sauce pleia2 :)
<pleia2> doing my job \o/
<elfy> :)
<Bookman> Hi all, who has a problem with connecting bluetooth-headphones to Xubuntu 14.04 x86? I can't do that with my Sony BTN-200
<knome> Bookman, please refer #xubuntu for support
<Bookman> <knome>, thx :)
<elfy> pleia2: so you like me using -testers to send messages then :)
<knome> elfy, that's nice :)
<pleia2> elfy: I do! (then I link to the -devel post)
<elfy> :)
<pleia2> but the testers email lands in my inbox, so I think "oh I need to tweet that"
<pleia2> and I can tell people like benonsoftware to join the testers team who are just interested in testing ;
<pleia2> ;)
<elfy> yep - think I saw that :)
<sanchopanza> hi, everyone. is anyone here familiar with the qa testing site and troubleshooting login problems?
<pleia2> sanchopanza: the most common problem I see with login issues to the tracker is not having a launchpad.net account connected to your ubuntu one account
<pleia2> so that's always the first thing I have folks check :)
<elfy> https://login.launchpad.net/+new_account
<sanchopanza> i have a launchpad account already
<sanchopanza> https://launchpad.net/~ted-m-cox
<elfy> sanchopanza: and you have an ubuntu one account as well?
<elfy> and what exactly is the login issue you have with the qa trackers
<sanchopanza> yes
<sanchopanza> i have screenshots of the issues
 * elfy notes that pleia2 might be more help with this - I just shout at the PC till it logs me in
<elfy> sanchopanza: ok
<sanchopanza> but of course i can't find the bug on launchpad. grr.
<sanchopanza> i uploaded screenshots to the bug on launchpad and now i can't find it.
<elfy> go to your LP page - bugs - then on the right - probably commented bugs if you didn't report it yourself
<sanchopanza> well, that's strange. here's my commented bugs page: https://bugs.launchpad.net/~ted-m-cox/+commentedbugs
<sanchopanza> but i have commented on bug 1309626,: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu-qa-website/+bug/1306926
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1306926 in Ubuntu QA Website "Can't login" [Undecided,Invalid]
<ubottu> bug 1309626 in Cinder "oslo.messaging debug logs are too verbose" [Low,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1309626
<elfy> no idea I'm afraid 
<elfy> LP is arcane ... 
<sanchopanza> on comment 8 i list out the steps i take trying to log in.
<sanchopanza> i attach additional screenshots on comments 9 and 10.
<elfy> sorry - there appear to be 2 different bug url's here was looking at the last one 
<knome> sanchopanza, the problem is that your launchpad username isn't passed on
<knome> sanchopanza, which email address is connected with the account ~ted-m-cox ?
<knome> is it tedmcox@ .. or something else?
<elfy> sanchopanza: where it says Complete the registration by filling ... have you tried clicking where the 'log in' is in the sentence?
<knome> sanchopanza, i guess the reason why the bug isn't showing in the list is that it has a closed status
<sanchopanza> the launchpad email account is ted.m.cox@gmail
<sanchopanza> oh, maybe my ubuntu one account is without the dots, tedmcox@gmail, and that's the problem
<knome> yes
<knome> they need to have the same email
<knome> then the login will be able to get the username from launchpad
<knome> i guess it would be okay if you simply linked the other email with your ubuntu one account as well
<knome> or then not; it might be you might need to make that the primary email
<elfy> 'we' have that problem - so I'd not be surprised if that's the case
<sanchopanza> alright, i'm logged in to ubuntu one with ted.m.cox
<sanchopanza> now let me try the qa site again
<sanchopanza> "Registration successful. You are now logged in." :)
<drc> Guess that windmill has been defeated :)
<elfy> that's good to know - thanks :)
<sanchopanza> thanks for the help!
 * benonsoftware shall start some of the package testing later tonight. :)
#xubuntu-devel 2015-05-11
<bluesabre> "tonight" ended up being much too late before I got home
<bluesabre> so, tomorrow
<Unit193> Have good sleep.
<krytarik> knome, slickymaster: I found a broken link on  http://xubuntu.org/contribute/development/  in the morning - "Ubuntu Packaging Resources" should probably now point to  http://packaging.ubuntu.com/ , and be renamed accordingly.
<elfy> edited the link - the name meh
<slickymasterWork> bah elfy, we should first ask krytarik:
<elfy> not putting "Building Ubuntu" on a Xubuntu page
<krytarik> LOL - yes.
<slickymasterWork> "So, krytarik, you don't feel like filling a bug against xubuntu website?"
<slickymasterWork> ;)
<krytarik> :P
<slickymasterWork> and only then ....
<slickymasterWork> lol
<slickymasterWork> how are you two?
<elfy> 3
<elfy> I am 2
<elfy> :p
<slickymasterWork> :P
<elfy> Monday - all a bit too much for a sane person - imagine how bad it is for me
<slickymasterWork> btw krytarik, did you saw the last -docs commit, yesterday?
<krytarik> slickymasterWork: Yep, checked - fine.
<slickymasterWork> great
<elfy> nice 
<slickymasterWork> lol
<elfy> so I have to get krytarik to check things? 
 * elfy wanders off 
<slickymasterWork> he has eagle eyes elfy. Very handy ;)
<elfy> and a beak? 
<elfy> :D
<slickymasterWork> lmao
#xubuntu-devel 2015-05-12
<bluesabre> good evening folks
<Unit193> Well hey!  It's a bluesabre!
<bluesabre> oh hey, we have abiword/gnumeric/libreoffice/gimp all installed
<bluesabre> how'd that happen :\
<Unit193> You updated the seed without the meta, right?
<bluesabre> yeah, updated the seed the other day before the meta branch was available
<Unit193> Tadaaaa.
<bluesabre> so I'm just surpised to see LO there with everything else
<Unit193> Not really.
<bluesabre> time to dig in :)
<Unit193> Need anything?
<bluesabre> not sure yet, you going to go hide?
<bluesabre> :)
<bluesabre> can't blame you ;)
<Unit193> Well, it's hot so there's that, and I do have my summer headache. :P
<bluesabre> germinate is dying hard
<bluesabre> http://paste.ubuntu.com/11087597/
<bluesabre> suppose I can go edit the code and learn more
<Unit193> wiley?
<bluesabre> yeah
<bluesabre> er
<Unit193> !wily
<ubottu> Ubuntu 15.10 (Wily Werewolf) will be the 23rd release of Ubuntu. Discussion in #ubuntu+1
<bluesabre> ah
<bluesabre> dang it
<bluesabre> :p
 * Unit193 tazes bluesabre.
 * bluesabre deserves it
<bluesabre> ok, you can go away Unit193, germinate is smarter when I type correctly
<Unit193> hah.
<bluesabre> ahhhhh http://paste.ubuntu.com/11087738/
 * Unit193 had forgotten about gimp actually passing.
<bluesabre> Unit193: still around
<bluesabre> ?
<Unit193> No.
<bluesabre> too late
<bluesabre> :D
<bluesabre> now to figure out how to set -tango as the default scheme in x-d-s
<Unit193> Doesn't by default?
<bluesabre> dunno
<bluesabre> might prefer some other by default
<bluesabre> galaxy is the one lo ships with
<Unit193> And we have galaxy?
<bluesabre> looks like tango does get default
<bluesabre> so thats pleasant
<bluesabre> good to see that lo is smart in that regard
<Unit193> Now to keep -math and -base out. :P
<bluesabre> sound like fun
<bluesabre> blacklist magic?
<Unit193> I don't remember being explicit about which I install, and libreoffice-style-tango is installed.
<Unit193> Sure galaxy is default? :P
 * bluesabre doesn't know anymore
<bluesabre> -tango is default on today's image
<bluesabre> so thats a good sign at least
<bluesabre> and base is not installed, just math to deal with
<bluesabre> is that possible to get rid of, I think that power's writer's latex ability
<bluesabre> seems to be
<bluesabre> need to stop writing before I test things
<bluesabre> :D
<Unit193> It's a seperate thing.
<bluesabre> gotcha
<bluesabre> so, just blacklist -math might do the trick
<Unit193> Doubt it, but hey.
<bluesabre> heyyyyy
<Unit193> How you doin'? ;)
<Unit193> blacklist is kind of useless, just makes sure something isn't selected as part of the task, not whether it's installed or not.
<bluesabre> ah
<Unit193> Only way to nicely do that is to create an xubuntu-blacklists package that conflicts (which I'd love, but that'd make micahg very unhappy, understandably so.)
<bluesabre> ah
<bluesabre> a
<bluesabre> :D
<bluesabre> well, we can hack on it and figure something out in the next few days
<Unit193> I'd like to get gnome-user-guide and -math out, maybe some others, but oh well.
<bluesabre> when we start with the blueprints, get those on there :)
 * micahg suggests leaving math as it's small
 * bluesabre waves at micahg
<micahg> I think we also lose a version of webkit now as well
<micahg> hi bluesabre 
<Unit193> Oh what dropped it?
<micahg> gimp
<micahg> unless that was patched
<Unit193> And yeah, understandable if that needed gtk2 webkit, ubiquity needs the other.
<micahg> oh, looks like that was patched out already, nevermind 
<Unit193> Anywho, just pointed out you'd not like -blacklist at all, didn't want to bother you too much. :P
<bluesabre> thanks
<micahg> I'm slightly concerned about https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/indicator-application-gtk2/12.10.0.1-0ubuntu3, ISTR we had an issue with the indicator gtk2 and gtk3 packages installing the same service
<micahg> we could just install the service in a separate binary that mate could seed
<micahg> or maybe it doesn't break anymore, idk, but it's something that should be tested
<bluesabre> yeah, we did have an issue with that and at least one of the indicators
<bluesabre> I'll be sure to take a look at that
<micahg> thanks
<Unit193> indicator-*-gtk2 need to go away as they don't really work well. :3
<micahg> well, as soon as all the panel plugins are gtk3 it can go, right?
<Unit193> We don't use it ourselves, not sure it even works in Lubuntu but LXQt will make it of no use, so it's just MATE.
<bluesabre> not sure, I was thinking that package was support for gtk2 panels
<Unit193> Yes.
<Unit193> xfce4-indicator-plugin is gtk3.
<bluesabre> xfce panel wraps gtk2 and gtk3 and has escaped the issue
<micahg> oh, we're not using it anymore
 * micahg apparently is working with out of date info...
<micahg> seeded-in-ubuntu indicator-application-gtk2
<micahg> indicator-application-gtk2 (from indicator-application-gtk2) is seeded in:
<micahg>   lubuntu: daily, daily-live
<micahg> hum, so lubuntu is using both...
<Unit193> Using, or shipping? :)
<micahg> daily/daily-live
<Unit193> lxpanel-indicator-applet-plugin Depends: libgtk2.0-0
<Unit193> Ah right, yeah they still use alternates.
<Unit193> bluesabre: Oooh, going to email -permissions soon? :3
<bluesabre> re xfce?
<micahg> what's the question?
<Unit193> Yep, bluesabre.
<bluesabre> wanting to get an xfce packageset
<micahg> do we need an xfce and xubuntu?
<Unit193> xfce would include stuff we don't ship, nor plan to.
<bluesabre> ^
<micahg> do we want to support t?
<bluesabre> I'm one of the xfce devs, so it feels kinda natural for me
<bluesabre> :)
<Unit193> Sean/(eventually I) would like access to it, at least.  Like xfce4-time-out-plugin, -eyes-plugin, thunar-dropbox, xfdashboard, etc.
<micahg> if xubuntu wants to support the xfce packages we're not shipping, just add them to the supported seed
<micahg> if xubuntu doesn't want to support them, then there could be a case for a packageset
<bluesabre> we'd want to maintain them, but not ship them
<micahg> I believe that's the purpose of the supported seed
<Unit193> Fancy..
<bluesabre> aha
<bluesabre> somehow missed that all this time :)
<Unit193> Do they have to already exist in the archive?
<micahg> yes
<micahg> need a sync?
<Unit193> We're planning on bringing in xfdashboard and xfce4-pulseaudio-plugin for wily.
<micahg> they're not in Debian either, right?
<Unit193> Right.
<micahg> ok, well, the flavor packagesets are updated semi-regularly, so whenever they make it in the archive, they can be added to supported
<micahg> I think the Ubuntu supported seed is a better guide for what's possible
<Unit193> bluesabre: Time to trim d/changelog, update vcs, and upload?
<bluesabre> seems so
<bluesabre> micahg: thanks for the pointers, I'll take a look at that in the coming days
<Unit193> http://paste.openstack.org/show/FGxfJj2w18rSHySndG7f
<bluesabre> tidy
<Unit193> If you're good, I'll commit and be done. :D
<bluesabre> looks good to me
<bluesabre> do we have a needs-packaging bug for that one? we can start poking and maybe get micahg to +1 it
 * micahg suggests uploading to Debian...
<Unit193> bluesabre: Puuushed.
<bluesabre> Unit193: let's get it into pkg-xfce then :)
<Unit193> Goooooood luck..
 * bluesabre will try to get himself closer to pkg-xfce
<micahg> hrm, I thouhgt I had access at some point, apparently I don't
<micahg> https://alioth.debian.org/projects/pkg-xfce
<Unit193> bluesabre: So we, Xubuntu, would like to maintain it under the pkg-xfce umbrella or what?  I figure I'll try talking to Corsac.
<Unit193> micahg: Yeah, SVN. :/
<Unit193> s/would like/would be willing/
<bluesabre> yeah
<bluesabre> since its an "official" xfce project now, should be easier
<bluesabre> I wonder if Corsac would add me if I just clicked the request to join button...
<bluesabre> worth a shot :)
<Unit193> We need to figure out the svn workflow. :/
<bluesabre> I've done it a bit before with pkg-xfce
<bluesabre> er
<bluesabre> python
<bluesabre> :D
<bluesabre> PAPT
<Unit193> I have not. \o/
<Unit193> bluesabre: Both xfce4-pulseaudio-plugin and xfdashboard are now waiting and ready for wily!
<micahg> http://anonscm.debian.org/viewvc/pkg-xfce/desktop/trunk/
<Unit193> Yep, exactly...
<micahg> git is better...
<bluesabre> !svn is better
<Unit193> bluesabre: cvs?
<bluesabre> ah
<bluesabre> nvm
<bluesabre> <3 git
<Unit193> I'll take git, hg, or even bzr.
<Unit193> bluesabre: Think we can con micahg into uploading?
<micahg> Unit193: did my GPG key magically make it into the Debian keyring?
<Unit193> micahg: I meant Ubuntu. :P
<micahg> it's early, any reason we can't go through Debian?
<bluesabre> no reason, just ubuntu is easier.  We'll get it into debian
<Unit193> Pretty much...
<Unit193> bluesabre: Since you're there, gonna ask?
<bluesabre> actually, was going to bed now
<Unit193> Awwh, sleepy Seany.
<bluesabre> but I can ask tomorrow after Corsac sees my pkg-xfce join request
<Unit193> Hah, well alright.  Good luck sir, and good luck sleeping..
<bluesabre> thanks
<bluesabre> good luck sleeping, or drinking coffee, or recharging, whichever you do :D
<micahg> if we get closer to alpha 1 and it's not in, we can look at going through Ubuntu, otherwise, I'd much prefer going through Debian
<Unit193> bluesabre: FWIW, last I knew he wasn't interested in thunar-dropbox.
<bluesabre> we can try again
<bluesabre> and I can put my seal of approval on it
<Unit193> (It's in Debian already, but my package.  Feel free though!)
<bluesabre> if thats worth anything
<bluesabre> :D
<Unit193> G'night, sleep well.
<Unit193> Speaking of which, xfce4-pulseaudio-plugin, new version, PPA'd.
<elfy> Unit193: in one of the team ppa's or yours
<Unit193> elfy: xubuntu-dev/extras to be exact, team ppa.
<elfy> oh - don't use that one
<elfy> just the staging and dev one 
<Unit193> Makes sense, those aren't in the real repo yet.
<elfy> I guess if we're going to move to that it'll end up on one of the 2 eventually
<xnox> so i think xfce looks slick
 * xnox ponders to switch from unity
<Unit193> Nice!  We try out best.
<Luyin> xnox go for it baby :P
<xnox> wow! snap to corner!
<xnox> yes! i want that!
 * xnox ponders if i can still have all of my indicators
<xnox> and the xfce panels seem to overlap badly horum.
 * xnox kind of likes unity launcher - which is combination of favorites & current windows
<Unit193> Thought there was a panel plugin for that...
 * xnox ponders how much stuff will break if I keep ubuntu-desktop installed and install xubuntu-desktop on top.
<Unit193> Not sure if it's one of the things you liked, but there's xfdashboard.  Also, if you're going to do that, I'd recommend xubuntu-core over xubuntu-desktop.
<xnox> ok. and i'll study shiny things that i'm missing, just by inspecting the seeds.
<Unit193> Unity likes indicators, xfce likes panel plugins. :P
<xnox> ok, it looks mostly ok
<xnox> i did "xubuntu session" rather than "xfce session"
<xnox> a few things give away that i have dual stack installed.... e.g. panel indicators are just plain weird.
<xnox> but it's ok
<xnox> however, the panel doesn't duplicate on to dual-screen =(
<xnox> ok worked it out, i think
<bluesabre> today's image, is this the same issue we were having before with the install freezing on restart? http://i.imgur.com/2NlabKo.png
<bluesabre> live runs fine, install looks good, just the restart bit
<bluesabre> gotta run now...
<bluesabre> pleia2: sorry I can't make it to the meeting, but I hope you get a lot of attendance from the others :)
<bluesabre> everyone else, seed updated last night, so now we have removed abiword/gnumeric/gimp and have libreoffice writer/calc/math
<bluesabre> bbl
<elfy> bluesabre: not tried for a few days - but restart was same as before - fail in vm
<xnox> horum. i don't like it.
<xnox> ended up making it look like unity
<xnox> and there are annoying things about it - lack of global menu, multi-monitor panels, and so on.
<xnox> e.g. i have a panel for each of the dual monitors, but i need to add things to whisker menu "favourites" twice.... per each screen =(
<pleia2> almost meeting time
<elfy> almost 
<pleia2> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Tue May 12 18:00:31 2015 UTC.  The chair is pleia2. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
<pleia2> hello! who all is here for the xubuntu community meeting?
<elfy> piskie is 
<pleia2> o/ elfy 
<pleia2> I guess we'll wait a couple minutes for the crowds to gather
<elfy> yep
<pleia2> !team | meeting time!
<ubottu> meeting time!: bluesabre, elfy, jjfrv8, knome, lderan, micahg, Noskcaj, ochosi, pleia2, slickymaster, Unit193
<pleia2> Agenda: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Meetings#Agenda
<elfy> lots about ... 
<pleia2> #topic Open action items
<pleia2> elfy to draft an EOL announcement (with other flavors)
<pleia2> that was done :)
<elfy> yea
<pleia2> xubuntu-docs to throw the ball around about the FAQ articles
<pleia2> dunno about that one
<pleia2> (which is also our first agenda item)
<elfy> there was a mail to the list
<pleia2> yeah, last month
<pleia2> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/xubuntu-devel/2015-April/010697.html
<elfy> bluesabre replied - no-one else did
 * pleia2 nods
<elfy> can't remember positively - but think there was some discussion in channel and a sort of acceptance it might be a good thing
<pleia2> wfm
<elfy> but - given it was a knome - might be better to just move on today
 * pleia2 nods
<elfy> *thinh
<pleia2> that was it for open action items
<pleia2> #topic Team updates
<elfy> lol
<pleia2> I don't have anything
<elfy> #info QA started to plan Wily
<pleia2> yay
<elfy> that's it :p
<pleia2> :)
<pleia2> alright, on to agenda items
<pleia2> Rebooting the FAQ articles is on the list, but no knome or docs people, so maybe we bump until next meeting
<elfy> wfm
<pleia2> Package testing, anyone?
<elfy> well yes :D
<pleia2> #topic Package testing
<elfy> so - this is bluesabre and my position
<elfy> http://pastebin.com/Q4KEDumc
<elfy> which boils down to lets not bother this cycle
<elfy> http://packages.qa.ubuntu.com/qatracker/milestones/327/builds/82959/testcases
<elfy> is what got tested and reported to the tracker last cycle
<elfy> I will move forward assuming that we are NOT going to bother with packages.qa.ubuntu.com
<pleia2> makes sense
<elfy> unless someone pipes up with a reasonable reason as to why we should
<elfy> but - kind of plan in the paste referenced above = mail list and ping social media if and when we've got a specific testing need
 * pleia2 nods
<elfy> done on that
<pleia2> people seem more excited when we do it that way anyway, wall-of-package-tests is less fun
<elfy> indeed
<pleia2> alright
<pleia2> #topic Milestones to take part in
<elfy> :)
<elfy> so the simple question is do we start at Beta again - or earlier - or play it by ear and see what happens pre Alpha
<pleia2> yeah
<elfy> #action elfy to mail -dev list re Milestone participation during Wily cycle
<meetingology> ACTION: elfy to mail -dev list re Milestone participation during Wily cycle
<pleia2> ++
<elfy> pleia2: you can move on then if you like now :)
<pleia2> #topic QA Incentive
<pleia2> so, last cycle we tried plying people with stickers to do QA
<elfy> ooh look - another one I need to be about for :p
<pleia2> it failed
<elfy> and you :D
<elfy> yep 
<pleia2> I've been reading this book recently and I think I know why http://www.danpink.com/drive/
<elfy> and given the time involved - not particularly interested in investing those hours and hours once more
<pleia2> people don't do this kind of thing to be awarded $15 in stickers
<pleia2> and offering it kind of devalues the whole process
<pleia2> most of the people who "won" stickers each time were surprised, one only accepted so he could give to his students/colleagues
<pleia2> so, oops :)
<elfy> maybe so - but on the other hand - asking people to do it - failed too
<pleia2> indeed
<elfy> perhaps the best thing would be for me to actually follow through on last cycles threat
<pleia2> so in learning more about motivation, I learned that the best thing we can do is give incentives that improve their rank in our dev community
<pleia2> stickers meh, noting & thanking people who are doing well in QA on social media and stuff has social capital that is valuable to these kinds of contributors
<pleia2> elfy: stepping down?
<pleia2> don't do that :)
<elfy> that implies getting people involved - which is just aas much an uphill struggle 
<elfy> pleia2: lol - no - I told ochosi I would be here for Wily - and by extension X too - wouldn't drop anyone in that 
<pleia2> it is, but we don't have a choice really, it needs to be done, QA test won't do themselves!
<pleia2> oh ok :) <3
<elfy> not mark things ready if not tested enough- even if it is Release Candidate 
<pleia2> ah, yes
<pleia2> that would probably encourage more testing from the team, I hope
<pleia2> which needs to happen, I didn't do any tests last cycle :(
<elfy> well - you know my position on that 
<elfy> if I can't expect the people putting their name on the release - how am I supposed to expect anyone else to do so
<pleia2> indeed
<elfy> anyway - wording change from drc off channel re previous statement 
<elfy> s/rank/standing/  sounds better, more "comunity" than "team"
<pleia2> I don't have permission to paste it in a logged meeting
<pleia2> oh ok :)
<pleia2> and yeah, words
<elfy> he can slap me if he wants to 
<elfy> anyway - yes - in theory that's great 
<elfy> but what do we do to move from theory to reality
<pleia2> ultimately, my goal with this agenda item was to review what we did, why it went bad and see if we can come up with better ideas moving forward
<elfy> frankly - the QA team is probably the easiest one to move into - and thence TEAM 
<pleia2> yeah
<elfy> well that's fine in and of itself as a goal
<elfy> but MY problem is *now* not in 3 months :)
<elfy> and if iirc - one of the reasons in that 'team' 
<elfy> (the QA team)
 * pleia2 nods
<pleia2> alright, well I think it's decided that we won't do a formalized sticker thing again
<elfy> I'd say that this topic is probably best dealt with in m/l 
<elfy> yea - I'm rather implacably -1 on doing that again
<pleia2> want me to write an email re: incentives to the list?
<elfy> I think so - perhaps get the discussion moving at least - follow up with a more detailed review - if that's even possible - later
<pleia2> wfm
<pleia2> #action pleia2 to email list re: QA and incentives
<meetingology> ACTION: pleia2 to email list re: QA and incentives
<elfy> we can start from the Marketing won't send them, QA won't give Marketing the data anyway stance :p
<pleia2> hehe
<pleia2> it was a fun experiment, but I don't think there will be any complaints about ending it
<elfy> nope
<pleia2> #topic Announcements & Discussion
<pleia2> anything else?
<elfy> not from me
<pleia2> yeah, I'm all set
<elfy> ok
<pleia2> #action Unit193 to schedule next meeting
<meetingology> ACTION: Unit193 to schedule next meeting
<pleia2> have a nice week :)
<pleia2> #endmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting ended Tue May 12 18:27:15 2015 UTC.  
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/xubuntu-devel/2015/xubuntu-devel.2015-05-12-18.00.moin.txt
<pleia2> woo, half hour until my next meeting
<elfy> but as I really going to want to be a bit twitchy about getting things set up - if Unit193 wants to swap with me - that is fine by me
<pleia2> :)
<pleia2> I'll try to do post-meeting tasks after work today, unless someone gets to them first
<elfy> pleia2: if I get time I'll try and fight through it - if I do I'll let you know in channel
<pleia2> k :)
<Unit193> elfy: You want the next meeting you say?
<elfy> Unit193: not so much want it - depends when you set it for 
<elfy> pleia2: think I have done it all 
<pleia2> elfy: thank you, sir!
<elfy> never having seen a "this is the post-meeting tasks" document I wouldn't be sure though :D
<pleia2> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Processes/Community#Meetings :)
<elfy> oh - never read that stuff
<pleia2> hahah
<elfy> not done team report
<elfy> nothing to report atm 
<pleia2> yeah, I usually do that in bulk at some point anyway
<elfy> lol 
<elfy> biab
<elfy> Unit193: which sounds like a trick question ... 
<Unit193> elfy: Well I'm up for whatever makes it better for you (well, not whatever.  I won't do both meetings!)
<Unit193> bluesabre: https://launchpadlibrarian.net/205835987/buildlog_ubuntu-wily-i386.xfce4-smartbookmark-plugin_0.4.6-1_BUILDING.txt.gz ftbfs, patch!
<elfy> Unit193: ha ha ha 
<elfy> I guess I'd swap if you set it for June
<Unit193> Oh, I was going to set it for July.
<pleia2> lol
<elfy> yea - that's what I meant - August 
<Unit193> 28th is looking decent.
<elfy> of? 
<pleia2> september
<elfy> works for me :)
<elfy> already appear to have a broken Wily install \o/ 
<elfy> that's the quickest for a long time :p
<pleia2> hah
<elfy> 90s to reboot while it fails to do something, the clean install I did an hour ago is fine
<bluesabre> Unit193: oh nooooooooooooooooooes
<micahg> heh
<micahg> I saw that last night
<bluesabre> hey micahg
<micahg> didn't get a chance to do anything about it yet
<micahg> hi bluesabre 
<bluesabre> I'll poke it now
 * Unit193 scratches head.
<micahg> source format 3 requires defuzzed patches IIRC
<Unit193> Yep.
<bluesabre> easy fix most likely
<micahg> not sure why Debian is different though
<Unit193> Not only unfuzzed, but no offset.
<Unit193> micahg: ubuntu.series.
<micahg> Ah :)
 * micahg jumps on the pkg-xfce bandwagon
<Unit193> bluesabre: Askaskaskaskaskaskaskaskask!
<Unit193> micahg: Yey!
<bluesabre> Unit193: so we're intested in getting xfdashboard and pulseaudio-plugin in first, IIRC?
<bluesabre> interested too
<Unit193> Da.
<Unit193> Wait, you're the XTL, you tell me!
<bluesabre> It's a team effort ;)
<Unit193> New pulse, didn't upload to lp, just bitb. :P
<bluesabre> there
<bluesabre> I asked
<bluesabre> yay me
 * bluesabre throws a celebratory pizza in the oven
<Unit193> Yey!
<Unit193> Good job on keeping up with the nicks!
<bluesabre> got scared when I couldn't tab-complete
<bluesabre> Un-tab-what!?
<Unit193> Aha. :D
<bluesabre> oh
<bluesabre> not in my packageset...
<bluesabre> just required a quilt refresh, maybe I should poke Corsac about it and let it get in via debian
<Unit193> bluesabre: Poke?  You mean push?
<Unit193> And figured as much, but nevertheless it's a ftbfs.
<bluesabre> yup
<bluesabre> poked
<Unit193> bluesabre: Did you miss that you have access in pkg-xfce?
<bluesabre> oh
<bluesabre> I did miss that
<bluesabre> I miss lots of things
<Unit193> That's what the 'welcome' was about.
<bluesabre> aha
<bluesabre> >.<
<Unit193> Well, I'm here to help, in several different ways it seems.
<bluesabre> so it seems
<bluesabre> maybe you can manage my inbox for me :)
<Unit193> Ahaha. :D
<bluesabre> maybe I can fix things and apologize before he gets online ;)
<Unit193> ...For breaking the repo? :D
<knome> good evening.
<bluesabre> hey knome!
<knome> hello bluesabre 
<bluesabre> Unit193: lookie, its a svn commit!
<bluesabre> knome: seems like you've been away for a little while, wb!
<knome> yep, i was in berlin since last tuesday
<bluesabre> oh nice
<knome> not nice, berlin
<knome> :d
<Unit193> bluesabre: So I saw. :)
<Unit193> krytarik: ^
<bluesabre> let's see what I broke once Corsac gets back >.<
<bluesabre> running out for a bit, bbabl
<knome> hf
 * micahg tries building from it
<micahg> works in wily :)
 * micahg needs new sid chroot
#xubuntu-devel 2015-05-13
 * Unit193 re-creating vivid, testing and unstable chroots.
<Unit193> hg-git was adopted, nice.
<slickymasterWork> pleia2, sorru for not attending the meeting yesterday, but something came up at the last minute, when I was already on my way home, making it impossible for me
<slickymasterWork> * sotty
<slickymasterWork> sigh 
<slickymasterWork> * sorry
<Unit193> 1:1.14.1-4 required, but 1:1.14.1-3ubuntu1 | wily  dangit.
<Unit193> bluesabre: I'd think whisker and xfdesktop4 would be good ones to do.
<bluesabre> automake there
<bluesabre> :o
<bluesabre> time for some merge work
<Unit193> Yeah, so -screenshooter can't get a sync yet, soon, though.
<bluesabre> yup
<bluesabre> how are you today Unit193?
<Unit193> Not bad, actually passed on something today, excited about that.  You?
<bluesabre> good good
<bluesabre> had a good time at work today, so can't complain
<bluesabre> :)
#xubuntu-devel 2015-05-14
<bluesabre> Unit193: poke
<Unit193> bluesabre: Poke?
<bluesabre> hey Unit193
<bluesabre> you had a note for xfce4-systemload-plugin to readd the epoch... but is that necessary? seems like that would just be a sync
<Unit193> bluesabre: Not having the epoch would be like going from version 1000 to 10, can't do that.
<bluesabre> ah
<micahg> hrm
<bluesabre> ah
<bluesabre> because of the 1:
<micahg> no
<Unit193> Yeah, we have what, two packages that that's the only diff? >_<
<micahg> we usually just keep that diff in Ubuntu
<micahg> unless Debian is really nice about it
<micahg> so, please ask Corsac
<micahg> e.g. Pidgin
<bluesabre> I see
<bluesabre> since I'm oblivious, what is the 1: suffix?
<bluesabre> prefix
<bluesabre> :\
<micahg> https://www.debian.org/doc/debian-policy/ch-controlfields.html#s-f-Version
<micahg> epoch
<Unit193> An epoch basically means "I have screwed things up beyond repair."
<bluesabre> aha
<micahg> not inherently bad, but to be avoided unless absolutely necessary
<micahg> as there's no going back
<Unit193> Yep, I even like the 4.7really4.6 better, as that will be fixed.
<bluesabre> I see
<bluesabre> I'll check with Corsac then
<Unit193> xfwm4 is the most interesting one, as that could nearly be sync'd.
<bluesabre> ok, I think that's enough for one night
<bluesabre> I think the whisker config location may have changed with 1.5, will take a look tomorrow
<elfy> bluesabre: pulseaudio plugin - do we have plans for this cycle? If so I'll start using it 
<elfy> Unit193: ^^
<Unit193> elfy: We're talking to pkg-xfce upstream to get it in, if it isn't in by A1 (A2?), then Mica said he'd inject directly into Ubuntu.  It was lacking mpris support, so still not sure if they (Simon, Sean) wanted it to replace indicator-sound yet.
<elfy> okey doke 
<elfy> I'll wait to see then :)
<elfy> as is normal - if anyone needs something used daily - let me know 
<Unit193> Pretty sure that was the plan.
<Unit193> Also, dashy should be built about now.
<elfy> thanks Unit193 :)
<Unit193> Popped up hamster and soundmenu too, though not sure why the first. :P
<elfy> not even sure what either are ... 
<Unit193> Meh, can pretty much ignore them.
<elfy> :)
<Unit193> Debian #755071
<ubottu> Debian bug 755071 in evince-gtk "evince-gtk still necessary?" [Minor,Open] http://bugs.debian.org/755071
<micahg> dlopen seems to be the way to go :)
#xubuntu-devel 2015-05-15
<Unit193> elfy, ochosi, bluesabre: 28th?
<elfy> works for me date wise
<Unit193> Thinking 1600EDT, 2000UTC.
<elfy> works for me time wise too :)
<Unit193> Great, because it looks like a lot of you on the agenda!
<elfy> middle 2 on agenda are on m/l now 
<elfy> last one will be on m/l when pleia2 does it 
<bluesabre> Unit193: yeah, I might be able to swing that one
<Unit193> bluesabre: Bummer, better swing it to 4am. :(
<bluesabre> 4am is way easier for me :P
#xubuntu-devel 2015-05-16
<Unit193> bluesabre: Also, #ubuntu-devel is interesting right now.
<bluesabre> good morning folks
<Unit193> Howdy.
<bluesabre> hey Unit193
<Unit193> bluesabre: Think you might have a bit 'o time today?
<bluesabre> I do this morning (right now)
<bluesabre> any priority items?
<Unit193> Got the a-ok for pkg-xfce, so just have to svn them.
<Unit193> (The new xfpm and -session uploads aren't important to us.)
<bluesabre> yeah, I'll pick those uploads up at a later date
<bluesabre> so now we can figure out pkg-xfce new projects
<Unit193> See conversation, there's an older readme/etc in the repo, and you can likely ask.
<bluesabre> cool
<bluesabre> I'm on it
<Unit193> He's active now if you want to ask.
<bluesabre> indeed
<bluesabre> want to repaste the links to those?
<Unit193> https://wiki.smdavis.us/doku.php?id=development:packages ?
<bluesabre> oh right
<bluesabre> brain
<Unit193> Can't think if there's anything else right now...
<bluesabre> looks like it should simply be a matter of
<bluesabre> svn-inject -o <package.dsc> svn+ssh://yourlogin@svn.debian.org/svn/pkg-xfce/goodies
<Unit193> Just change the maintainer and uploaders.
<bluesabre> yup
<Unit193> Target UNRELEASED and fix version too. :P
<bluesabre> i know i know
<bluesabre> :P
<Unit193> :D
<bluesabre> btw, not sure what the issue is
<bluesabre> but so many apps have a strange statusbar void in gtk 3.16
<Unit193> Issue is GTK3...
<bluesabre> yeah
<bluesabre> http://i.imgur.com/OiWIW10.png
 * bluesabre shrugs
<Unit193> That's lovely...
<bluesabre> doing some sanity builds, then will inject
<Unit193> \o/
<Unit193> I was pretty sure it was svn-inject. :D
<bluesabre> :P
 * bluesabre likes the PAPT documentation https://wiki.debian.org/Teams/PythonAppsPackagingTeam/HowTo
<Unit193> pkg-multimedia has some too.
<bluesabre> Unit193: pulse uploaded
<bluesabre> want to check it out and make sure all is well? :)
<Unit193> svn update didn't pull it...
<bluesabre> weird
<bluesabre> http://paste.ubuntu.com/11165946/
<bluesabre> oh crap
<bluesabre> that should have gone into trunk
<bluesabre> darn outdated guide
<Unit193> trunk/foo, not foo/trunk? :D
<bluesabre> well, it has the opposite layout compared to the others, so not sure what the correct command should have been
<bluesabre> :\
<bluesabre> Unit193: try now?
<Unit193> There now.
<Unit193> Dowh, figured you'd grab the others too.
<bluesabre> hm?
<bluesabre> I cloned, adjusted, svn-injected
<bluesabre> should I do something differently with xfdashboard? :)
<Unit193> Update Vcs-* and rm gbp.conf first?
<bluesabre> didn't know what gbp.conf was
<bluesabre> glad you fixed it though :D
<Unit193> git-buildpackage config.
<bluesabre> aha
<bluesabre> :D
<bluesabre> alrighty then
<bluesabre> xfdashboard is up
<Unit193> \o/
<bluesabre> I've made enough noise for now, can you do any tweaks necessary to get it up and running?
<Unit193> bluesabre-guest r9147 scripts goodies-sources.txt * Add xfdashboard to goodies-sources  interesting.
<Unit193> Don't think I see anything to add. :)
<bluesabre> cool
<bluesabre> was going by
<bluesabre> www/doc/Goodies-Packaging-HOWTO
<bluesabre> woot, escaped in the nick of time
<bluesabre> bbl
<Unit193> bluesabre: I don't suppose you read, but the seeds may soon be able to be stored in git.
<Unit193> https://mail.xfce.org/pipermail/xfce4-dev/2013-November/030544.html wonder if that's still the view seen as valid, or if root pixmap will go upstream.
<knome> pleia2, it occured to me that we should also update http://xubuntu.org/donations/ with hellotux stuff
<Unit193> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/xubuntu-devel/2015-May/010740.html
<knome> yay.
<Unit193> nay.
* Unit193 changed the topic of #xubuntu-devel to: Xubuntu Development | Support at #xubuntu | Next Meeting: May 28 20:00 | http://ubottu.com/y/ww | Wiki: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu | Daily testing with results: http://iso.qa.ubuntu.com/
<knome> ooh :P
<knome> why no 20UTC?
<Unit193> UTC is implied? ;)
<knome> welll
<knome> isn't :00
<Unit193> Fine, next time I schedule for 20:13!
<ObrienDave> and a half ;P
<knome> Unit193, not 20:15?
<knome> :P
<Unit193> Nope.
<Unit193> gcal updated, I hope.
<knome> looks like it
#xubuntu-devel 2015-05-17
<pleia2> knome: yeah re: hellotux on donations page
<Unit193> bluesabre: Can we just sync xfpm and get it over with?
<Unit193> http://paste.openstack.org/show/pPfZEjWPlIpK8VHoJiND/
<elfy> hi Unit193 
<Unit193> Howdy, elfy.
<bluesabre> Unit193: with the return of the tray icon, yeah, no need to explicitly build for lxpanel
<bluesabre> and thats broken anyway
#xubuntu-devel 2016-05-16
<bluesabre> quiet day
<Unit193> A bit.
<knome> day? 2am.
#xubuntu-devel 2016-05-17
<ochosi> evening all
<knome> hello
<ochosi> what's up?
<knome> north?
<davmor2> oh I know this one....the sky
<flocculant> hi ochosi knome davmor2 
<knome> hello flocculant, davmor2 
<davmor2> flocculant: how do, how is kvm treating you?
<flocculant> davmor2: better than canonical's servers :p
<flocculant> the alias thing works fine doing zsync an kvm :)
#xubuntu-devel 2016-05-18
<Unit193> bluesabre: So, thunar.
<bluesabre> so
<bluesabre> yes?
<Unit193> https://bugzilla.xfce.org/show_bug.cgi?id=12264 contains no new patches, the PPA thunar crashes less though reports that it still crashes come from QA.  Is it useful enough to push it to yakkety, or should we drop from the PPA?
<ubottu> bugzilla.xfce.org bug 12264 in core "Crash when renaming single file in folder" [Major,New]
<bluesabre> I think it sounds like something we should include
<bluesabre> let's get a +1 to push to yakkety from flocculant and then go for it
<Unit193> ACK.
<flocculant> bluesabre Unit193 - well it appears to be *better* than thunar without the patches, bit devil and the deep blue sea though
<flocculant> davmor2: bug 1583009
<ubottu> bug 1583009 in libvirt (Ubuntu) "Error starting domain since update" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1583009
<flocculant> so now I have no virt manager working \o/ (though the kvm from command works still :p)
<flocculant> bluesabre Unit193 - which is +1ish :)
<davmor2> flocculant: it's almost like you are running an in development in flux OS with bug reports like that ;)
<flocculant> davmor2: \o/
<davmor2> flocculant: yet another reason to use kvm or quem direct no additional libraries that might be broken :)
<flocculant> well
<flocculant> afaik the idea with -proposed was so things didn't break :)
<davmor2> flocculant: ha ;)
<flocculant> on the other hand - I've not passed one of our images for weeks - so no real need for anything to test them with :D
<davmor2> flocculant: to be honest until a month in there tends to be too much imported at will to have something break from a fresh install it tends to be upgrades that don't break
<flocculant> yea
<flocculant> though ubiquity issues tend to be just that :)
<flocculant> Unit193: core installs (have to continue past the ubi-console bug that the normal images for everyone are seeing)
<flocculant> so if you saw that ubi-console thing and thought it just the core iso - it isn't - it's all iso's 
<flocculant> evening
 * knome burps promptly as a response
<flocculant> that'll be IRC prompt then :p
<knome> yes
<flocculant> :)
<flocculant> davmor2: so even if I *am* running the ridiculously in flux dev os - arges is still looking at it :p
<davmor2> hahahahaha
<flocculant> davmor2: and .... "I can reproduce this bug." :p
<davmor2> flocculant: I didn't say it wasn't a bug I just said if you will insist on using bleeding edge unstable stuff ;)
<flocculant> :p
<flocculant> davmor2: somewhere round about 8.10 for bleeding edge unstable stuff
<flocculant> :)
<davmor2> flocculant: well it's 8:06 now so that is abour right :P
<flocculant> \o/
<davmor2> about even :D
<flocculant> buying lotto ticket
<ochosi> evening all
<flocculant> hi ochosi 
<ochosi> hey flocculant 
<ochosi> what's new?
<ochosi> i don't get to read a lot of what's going on here during the day, so i'm always hoping for someone to give me a brief summary
 * ochosi is lazy
<flocculant> not much - you? 
<ochosi> trying to finalize my port of xfce4-clipman
<ochosi> to gtk3
<ochosi> not too much missing
<ochosi> tried to do that as a project to get me back to development a bit
<flocculant> about the only new thing is bluesabre/unit193 putting the ppa thunar in yak
<ochosi> ok, read about that
<flocculant> ochosi: don't know about anything else
<flocculant> other than you keep not "ACTION: ochosi to schedule next meeting" 
<flocculant> :p
<flocculant> ochosi: not sure what we can do with thunar tbh - while the patches make it better, I can still crash it
<ochosi> yeah
<ochosi> thunar is a bit problematic
<ochosi> oh crap, sry about the meeting
<ochosi> i'll schedule one tonight
<ochosi> (not: for tonight)
<flocculant> ha ha ha 
<bluesabre> evening all
<knome> lla gnineve
<bluesabre> hi
<ochosi> hey bluesabre 
<knome> rebaseulb yeh!
<knome> er- too
<knome> funny
 * ochosi just finished porting xfce4-clipman to gtk3
<ochosi> phew
<knome> thunar next!
<knome> :Ã
<ochosi> so now i have time for more mundane tasks again, like scheduling meetings
<knome> le sigh
<knome> :)
<bluesabre> hey ochosi
<bluesabre> emonk yeh!
 * ochosi missed all the new trends
<bluesabre> ochosi: well done!
<ochosi> bluesabre: well test before you praise ;)
<ochosi> it builds and it seems to work as far as i can tell
<bluesabre> :)
<ochosi> that's about it :D
<bluesabre> I'll try to check it out tonight
<ochosi> great, thanks!
<bluesabre> dinner time, bbl
<ochosi> bon appetit!
<ochosi> (that's french for... eh, nothing?)
<knome> that's french for bon appetit
<knome> !
<bluesabre> :o
<knome> wut?
#xubuntu-devel 2016-05-19
<bluesabre> ochosi: link to your clipman branch?
<bluesabre> (don't see it on git.xfce)
<krytarik> bluesabre: Scoured my logs for that :P - https://github.com/ochosi/xfce4-clipman-plugin
<bluesabre> krytarik: thanks for that
<bluesabre> ochosi: certainly seems to work
<ochosi> bluesabre: good to hear :)
<knome> ochosi, you should be able to edit the wiki now
<flocculant> cos the whiner whined :p
<ochosi> knome: am i also an ubuntu member now? :D
<knome> ochosi, no, ~xubuntu-team is able to edit all wiki pages
<Unit193> Gotta apply for that, though with your record they'd be complete morons to disapprove. :P
<knome> and yeah, you would totally be approved if you applied
<knome> ochosi, that said, why not apply? :P
<knome> ochosi, you get a membership certificate signed by mark and shipped to you free of charge
<Unit193> "I was the Xubuntu project lead for the past 4 years." "Done." :P
<Unit193> ...I got a cert that pleia2 drew up and photographed, does that count?
<knome> Unit193, that counts for different things
<knome> Unit193, maybe that's one of the magic things to unlock a secret door and make the three-way happen
<knome> or maybe not
<knome> let's leave that as a mystery
<ochosi> alright alright, i'll consider it (again) ;)
<flocculant> it's pretty painless
<Unit193> And you know if flocculant says it...
<knome> hahah
<knome> exactly
 * flocculant could say lots
<knome> lots
<knome> ^ i can say that too
<flocculant> apart from at a membership meeting that he'll not ever have :p
<Unit193> Perhaps the GTK3 Xfce thing should be on the agenda?  Dunno.
#xubuntu-devel 2016-05-20
<flocculant> evening all
<ochosi> evening flocculant 
<flocculant> hi ochosi :)
<ochosi> !team | anybody here for the meeting? :) we'll start in about 25!
<ubottu> anybody here for the meeting? :) we'll start in about 25!: akxwi-dave, bluesabre, dkessel, flocculant, jjfrv8, knome, krytarik, micahg, Noskcaj, ochosi, pleia2, slickymaster and Unit193
 * flocculant was waiting about for utc to catch up :)
<pleia2> o/
<flocculant> hi pleia2 :)
<pleia2> hey there flocculant 
<ochosi> coolcool
 * flocculant waits patiently 
<knome> ochosi, yep
<flocculant> ochosi run off :p
<knome> yep
<ochosi> :)
<ochosi> too late
<knome> good plan
<ochosi> #startmeeting Xubuntu Community Meeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Fri May 20 20:31:59 2016 UTC.  The chair is ochosi. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
<knome> o/
<ochosi> !team | alright, let the games begin
<ubottu> alright, let the games begin: akxwi-dave, bluesabre, dkessel, flocculant, jjfrv8, knome, krytarik, micahg, Noskcaj, ochosi, pleia2, slickymaster and Unit193
<slickymaster> \O
<flocculant> mmm games
<knome> wow, the bubblehead from theme park
<pleia2> o/
<knome> err
<knome> theme hospital
<ochosi> okeydokey
<ochosi> let's walk through...
<ochosi> #topic Open Action Items
<ochosi> are there any?
<knome> nope
<knome> well, the one there is was cancelled
<knome> not enough time
<ochosi> k
<ochosi> what was it?
<flocculant> what?
<knome> dkessel's mail about the pi testing
<flocculant> not enough time - or not enough people to actually do something about it? 
<knome> he said he didn't have enough time to carry out the testing and stuff itself, so no reason to send a mail
<ochosi> right
<knome> there was another mail on the ML about the same thing
<ochosi> let's move on then...
<flocculant> read that
<knome> where i replied that if we get enough interested parties...
<flocculant> yup
<ochosi> #topic Updates and Announcements
<ochosi> any updates?
<flocculant> quick one
<ochosi> #info ochosi has started porting xfce4-clipman-plugin and gaston has ported some other small plugins to gtk3
<flocculant> #info all images currently fail with ubi-console error - though can be installed if ignored
<ochosi> (we can discuss whether we want to integrate the plugins in the discussion section)
 * flocculant has question about ochosi's at some point :)
<knome> #info knome has been working on a new tracker where all work items are tracked internally (eg. not in LP) - mails will follow when it's ready enough for others to test and evaluate whether we want to use that
<flocculant> #info tracker now shows (more or less) a daily +/- on whether our image boots at least
<ochosi> #info ochosi looked at what would be necessary for gtk3.20 support for greybird, and it's basically a rewrite (even though ubuntu doesn't seem to be likely to upgrade gtk3 this cycle as they're still looking for a new larsu, i'd rather get a head-start on this as soon as i can)
<flocculant> #info unlikely that QA will run IRC sessions unless they get more positivity about them
<ochosi>  - k, that was it from my side
<ochosi> flocculant: are there still plans for a community-driven jenkins?
<flocculant> ochosi: well
<ochosi> i vaguely remember some automated testing stuff from past months
<flocculant> do we have the time in a meeting? 
<knome> yes
<knome> :P
<ochosi> flocculant: depends... :)
<flocculant> afaik - it's still in plan, but I am the eternal ... 
<flocculant> and nothing happened for us pre LTS so I see no reason why it'd not suddenly happen post LTS
<flocculant> and also
<ochosi> just wondering whether at least the downloading and installing the iso part could be automated so that we could get some feedback on whether that part works and you don't have to do that manually
<flocculant> given that just because autotest passed/failed it seemed to make no difference at all to whether *we* could boot or use that image
<flocculant> seems rather pointless to carry on hoping imo
<flocculant> so
<flocculant> I got images to build much earlier
<flocculant> I zsync locally
<knome> and balloons is not working with QA stuff any more
<knome> they are looking for a replacement
<flocculant> I update our tracker status tab
<knome> getting help and push from that person would be vital imo
<flocculant> when I see build fail - I check that
<flocculant> then rinse repeat
<ochosi> i'll keep this in the back of my mind, but maybe i can think of a way to automatically dl, install and run the ISO and report the results with jenkins
<flocculant> knome: if you ask me then any replacement is likely to be more *ubuntu* 
<ochosi> main issue is likely automating the installer
<knome> flocculant, likely so
<ochosi> ok, anyway, so not too much hope on that front
<ochosi> good to have cleared it up still
<ochosi> any other updates?
<ochosi> or can we move to the discussion part
<flocculant> ochosi: davmor2 gave me a script that grabbed iso and synced it - maybe look into that together ish? 
<ochosi> flocculant: sure, pastebin it
<ochosi> so no more updates though?
<flocculant> https://git.launchpad.net/~davmor2/+git/iso-updater/tree/update.py
<flocculant> ochosi: ^^
<knome> i'm fine
<flocculant> obviosuly that's ubuntu centric
<ochosi> oh ok
<ochosi> well this is just the zsyncing part
<ochosi> i was more thinking about automating the complete install process of ISO
<knome> yeah
<flocculant> ochosi: I have some kvm commands that work locally 
<knome> the download/sync part is the easy one
<flocculant> knome: well
<ochosi> anyhoo, let's not drag this on too much longer, the discussion needs time
<ochosi> #topic Discussion
<flocculant> ochosi: perhaps an ACTION
<ochosi> what action?
<ochosi> #undo
<meetingology> Removing item from minutes: TOPIC
<ochosi> go ahead then
<flocculant> on the auto stuff
<ochosi> right
<ochosi> #action ochosi will see whether he can come up with ways to automate the ISO installing with jenkins
<meetingology> ACTION: ochosi will see whether he can come up with ways to automate the ISO installing with jenkins
<ochosi> #topic Discussion
<ochosi> #subtopic Xubuntu Council
<ochosi> so i guess i posted most of my thoughts on the ML
<flocculant> yup
<knome> and me
<knome> and flocculant 
<knome> so anyone else around? :P
<pleia2> ML or team email?
<flocculant> pleia2: both afaik
<ochosi> ML
<ochosi> well, some initial discussion was on team mail
<pleia2> ah yes, knome's thread
<ochosi> but the proposal was on the ML
<ochosi> yup
<knome> i think the ML thread has all the information we need to get the discussion here done now
<pleia2> #link https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/xubuntu-devel/2016-May/011167.html
<knome> i mean, it has the actual proposition based on the discussion with the team
<ochosi> yeah, so basically i see all my points resolved
<ochosi> i'm good with the proposal as is
<pleia2> me too
<knome> it still needs to be fixed into a XSD section
<knome> so some supporting words
<knome> not too many
<ochosi> there are maybe some small details we still need to flesh out (like whether the council can autonomously decide to split the chair), but other than that it's good
<flocculant> it still needs to be ratified by team
<knome> indeed
<knome> so i'd say voting is next
<slickymaster> I also favour a three members council proposal
<knome> should we vote on the baseline now (eg. anything that's written on the proposal)
<slickymaster> I'd say yes knome 
<knome> and then when the XSD stuff is written, vote again to approve the details
<flocculant> knome: I would think so 
<slickymaster> everyone had time to read now
<ochosi> sounds good to me
<ochosi> are we enough for a quorum though?
<flocculant> as long as it goes to M/L for vote
<knome> after that's done, then send the section to community council
<ochosi> or anyway, yeah, the ML
<flocculant> ochosi: don't think so 
<knome> yeah, i'd suggest a mailing list (only) vote
<ochosi> ok great
<flocculant> regardless - I think this should go to M/L 
<knome> gets archived too
<ochosi> knome: wanna set up the vote, since it was "your" thread? :)
<knome> #action knome to initialize voting on the council proposal on devel ML
<meetingology> ACTION: knome to initialize voting on the council proposal on devel ML
<flocculant> 2 ticks
<knome> ^ there's your answer
<flocculant> can we word it so that people can 'ahem' before voting
<knome> like?
<knome> give them more time to react?
<flocculant> because currently we have 2 or 3 voices in that thread
<flocculant> and this isn't something like 'let's get rid of gmb' 
<knome> well the thread is 1 week old
<ochosi> :)
<knome> do we want more?
<flocculant> well 
<flocculant> we're giving the council 2 to postpone :p
<ochosi> i'd say if the voting results in a discussion we can stop/inhibit the voting
<ochosi> but maybe starting a vote is a good trigger for getting more feedback
<ochosi> otherwise the thread might just sit there for another week
<flocculant> I would say - we're voting - 2 weeks, react to previous thread to stop vote - or something
<knome> well,
<flocculant> but
<knome> voting should be 1 week
<knome> if we want to give people more time to react, let's postpone the start of voting
<flocculant> we have to have some sort of deadline - and ochosi is not XPL in 6 ish weeks
<ochosi> i'd say "if you have serious doubts regarding the proposal either vote against it or ask for postponing the vote and reopening the discussion"
<flocculant> knome: ok - so do a thread, 1 week, then vote thread
<knome> i can send a reminder mail to reply to the thread before X if there is anything anybody wants to change, and also note that voting will start on X
<knome> ochosi, can you #undo
<flocculant> knome: ack that 
<ochosi> #undo
<meetingology> Removing item from minutes: ACTION
<knome> #action knome to send a reminder mail to reply to the council proposal within a week
<meetingology> ACTION: knome to send a reminder mail to reply to the council proposal within a week
<flocculant> I just want this to be done as *right* as the group of us can manage
<knome> #action knome to initialize voting on the council proposal on devel ML (week from now)
<meetingology> ACTION: knome to initialize voting on the council proposal on devel ML (week from now)
<ochosi> ok, sounds good to me
<knome> so another thing that kind of overlaps with this
<flocculant> knome: thanks 
<ochosi> everybody fine with this so we can move on to the next subtopic?
<flocculant> I am
<knome> how do we deal with people who have appeared to be more or less inactive in the team for an extended period - namely, jackson and micah
<flocculant> knome: I would say that the 6 month ish thing should affect that
<knome> i think it's fair for the future of the project and others involved that inactive members do not affect the council election at least
<knome> unless they (plan to) become active again
<slickymaster> the strategy document states that if anyone is away for more than a cycle he/she gets removed from team
<pleia2> but first step for anything here should be reaching out to them to talk about their involvement
<ochosi> slickymaster: yeah, in practice we didnt execute it that strict (as i implied on the ML), i usually got in contact with team members and discussed before removing anyone
<pleia2> ochosi++
<knome> "nyone with no contributions for more than a complete cycle (6 months) should deactivate themself from the team as well as all subteams and reapply if/when they are willing to rejoin. The team administrators should purge people with no contributions in more than 6 months from the teams occasionally."
<slickymaster> which is fair ochosi 
<flocculant> pleia2: how much more reaching out - the discussion has been on either team mail or -devel
<knome> yeah, i kind of agree with flocculant 
<pleia2> flocculant: a direct friendly email
<ochosi> i mean i can send out one last email
<ochosi> it doesn't hurt too much
<knome> ochosi, since you are the incumbent XPL, i'd appreciate if you did that
<ochosi> but knome's point is different i guess, cause it would imply that even if they plan to contribute again they would not be able to vote
<flocculant> ok
<flocculant> so 
<knome> ochosi, well there are two things i'm after:
<ochosi> knome: yeah sure, if we reach the conclusion that this is what we wanna do, i'm gonna send the mail
<flocculant> how about ochosi do final mail, THEN we start the ACTION's ? 
<flocculant> 3 weeks
<ochosi> s/mail/mails/
<knome> ochosi, if they plan to be active again, then they can be nominated or nominate themself
<knome> ochosi, whether they get elected is a different thing
<knome> ochosi, and the other thing is that if you suddenly start being active before the vote, sure you can vote
<ochosi> flocculant: no, i wouldn't postpone the vote tbh
<knome> flocculant, my first mail and ochosi's mails can happen paralllel
<flocculant> ok
<flocculant> just being soft :p
 * flocculant is happy with that
<knome> ochosi, so as long as you send the mails today or tomorrow, they have a week to react to your mail and at the same time, my mail
<ochosi> proposal: i send out an email to micah and jackson asking them whether they plan to continue being part of the team and contributing since we're about to have this important vote and if not i would kindly ask them to lay down their membership and abstain from voting
<knome> ochosi, and we can either keep them or dump them just before the vote
<ochosi> yeah
<knome> well no need to mention abstain from voting - that's implied with "leave the team"
<knome> and i don't want to leave the impression they can stay in the team if they simply abstain from the voting :P 
<ochosi> pleia2, Unit193: thoughts?
<flocculant> slickymaster: ^^
<pleia2> ochosi: that's fine
<slickymaster> the best plan in my pov is ochosi mail them tomorrow and give them one week to decide until knome's mail
<knome> ochosi, i'll make sure i don't send the vote email before at least 2 weeks (literally by the minute) has passed since the first mail
<knome> slickymaster, i'm going to send two mails
<knome> slickymaster, the first one is a reminder to take part in the discussion; the other is "voting starts now"
<flocculant> slickymaster: not sure I'd agree *assuming* knome and ochosi mail in parallel
<slickymaster> I was referring to your first mail, knome 
<flocculant> AND
<flocculant> nothing here is actually new
<slickymaster> no it isn't
<knome> slickymaster, why would they need one week to think whether they want to comment on something?
<knome> slickymaster, as far as i'm concerned, they can comment and give feedback on the thread *ALREADY*
<slickymaster> I don't see it as a decision period knome 
<slickymaster> more like a gracefull one
<knome> yeah, but they aren't declined any action
<knome> until one week
<knome> so they will have one week of decision period
<flocculant> same as the rest of us
<knome> note that the thread has been going on for one week
<slickymaster> I know
<flocculant> the original team one almost 4 weeks
<knome> if they haven't seen it at all, then i don't think it's likely they will suddenly want to contribute
 * slickymaster hasn't provided any input in that thread also
<knome> if they have seen it, but ignored it, they have got their thinking time
<slickymaster> but will do this weekend
<knome> slickymaster, ultimately, we can't babysit everybody, so that's your loss ;)
<flocculant> slickymaster: but if you had major issues - would you still have not replied? 
<flocculant> assuming you read them 
<slickymaster> I'd have flocculant 
<flocculant> right
<slickymaster> was going to do it this weekend anyway
<flocculant> :)
<knome> i think enough of us agree that we (me and ochosi) can send the first mails in parallel
<slickymaster> s/anyway/either way
<flocculant> knome: ack
<knome> if either of them needs more thinking time, they can respond to ochosi saying they'd want to postpone the voting
<knome> which i think is very unlikely
<ochosi> yup, i think that's ok
<knome> we're flexible - we'll bend but not break
<slickymaster> wkf
<slickymaster> * wfm
<knome> ochosi, so just make sure your mail gets out before Sat 22:58 UTC
<knome> ochosi, you have about 26 hours
<ochosi> #action ochosi to send mail to micah and jackson about their membership and the upcoming council vote
<meetingology> ACTION: ochosi to send mail to micah and jackson about their membership and the upcoming council vote
<pleia2> thanks ochosi 
<ochosi> let's move on?
<ochosi> pleia2: np :)
<knome> yeah, move on
<ochosi> #subtopic User Team Lead
<knome> flocculantyyyy
<flocculant> ok
<flocculant> so basically this is something I wanted to bring up - and is likely to take some time to sort out if we want to
<flocculant> but to start with, given we say we're a Community flavour
<flocculant> perhaps with the advent of Council we should spend some time thinking about a Team position for a User 'representative'
<flocculant> I've no real concrete proof this would help
<flocculant> not
<flocculant> s/not/nor
<knome> one question i have (which i haven't brought up yet) is that how much would the tasks the lead would take overlap with the tasks of the marketing lead?
<flocculant> any concrete idea about how to do this
<flocculant> knome: no
<flocculant> so my initial thinking is 
<pleia2> I think a good first step would be noting out what we already do to interact with the community
<flocculant> once we have some 'rules' 
<pleia2> we have a user mailing list, #xubuntu, and I interact with people a lot on social media (though not as much as I'd like, because I am spread thin)
<knome> i guess one of the main points (which i have also pointed out in the ML) is that the community representative would bring up the voice of the community
<flocculant> would be to let the whole of the LP user team vote on them
<flocculant> knome: yes
<knome> but what are the actionable items from that
<knome> or is it just floating everywhere and repeating what people say about xubuntu
<flocculant> I'm happy to spend some time working on this - assuming that we will actually do something positive at the end
<flocculant> knome: well 
<flocculant> I don't know
<knome> one task that would overlap with the marketing lead at least is filling the "in press" page
<flocculant> it's rather nebulous 
<pleia2> yeah, I feel like I do a lot of this already
<flocculant> pleia2: ok 
<knome> because the things we link from there kind of is the content that lead would be looking after
<pleia2> but I'm happy to clarify exactly what I do in an etherpad
<pleia2> and where I need help :)
<flocculant> so if I was the community 'rep' I would be jumping up and down on the intel/suspend issue 
<knome> pleia2, would you be fine to clarify that in a docbook format at some point (potentially)
<flocculant> there's no 'communal voice'
<flocculant> just disaprate groups saying things
<knome> right
<knome> another question is:
<ochosi> flocculant: to what end would you jump up and down on that?
<pleia2> I do try to speak up when issues come up and I've seen people talking about it on social media
<knome> would there be something that we are missing currently that the user lead would find out byt their actions?
<pleia2> but again, could use help keeping an eye on this
<Unit193> As far as "Community flavor", that means *we're* the community, the Xubuntu team. :P
<knome> if something affects many people, it'll show up on places like #xubuntu and the social media
<knome> but so far, nothing we didn't already know has been "trending" anywhere
<flocculant> Unit193: yes - but Xubuntu Users is part of that surely
<knome> so it leads me to ask whether there is anything else to "find"
<flocculant> who knows - do we ask? 
<flocculant> ever?
<knome> we don't
<flocculant> for instance
<knome> and don't get me wrong - i'm not saying i'm against the idea
<flocculant> take the wallpaper for xenial
<ochosi> (just a sidenote, i really have to take off at 23:30 local time, which is in about 10mins, if you want to continue the meeting i can hand over the chair to someone else ofc)
<flocculant> ochosi: let's shuffle this on to m/l and move on
<knome> ochosi, you can #chair me if you want
<flocculant> because the 5 of us will go in circles
<ochosi> #chair ochosi knome
<meetingology> Current chairs: knome ochosi
<knome> or we can continue after the other discussion points
<pleia2> flocculant: I am interested in where you feel there are concerns here
<knome> because irc != ML
<knome> indeed
<flocculant> shuffle my last 2 forward while ochosi is here
<ochosi> k
<ochosi> so thunar and cursor bug?
<flocculant> the first will be quick :)
<ochosi> and skip the wiki part?
<flocculant> yea
<ochosi> alrihgt
<knome> yeah, can skip wiki
<ochosi> #subtopic Thunar
<flocculant> so
<flocculant> currently my problem is a carry on - but we're 2 months or so from .1 for 14.04 upgrades
<flocculant> we've got some patches - we still have bugs
<flocculant> will the pacthed thunar SRU to 16.04.1?
<ochosi> does thunar have the same crashes in 14.04 that it has in 16.04?
<flocculant> ochosi: don't believe so - they are more recent than that
<ochosi> yeah, what i thought
<ochosi> just wanted to make sure to not misunderstand your reference
<flocculant> the bigger question here though is if Thunar is not actively maintained we really need to seriously think about it's inclusion
<ochosi> so the question would actually go to bluesabre (and Unit193?) - afaik they were looking at packaging another patch for thunar
<knome> do we have a patched thunar that fixes the issues?
<ochosi> knome: not completely
<ochosi> i think it makes it less bad
<knome> :)
<flocculant> ochosi: I know you don't like the idea - neither do I - but I don't much like what we have either :)
<knome> can we start with that for .1?
<flocculant> knome: I can still crash thunar more at less at will 
<ochosi> knome: yeah, i think that's the plan
<knome> flocculant, that's not my problem, my problem is that it'll crash without my will
<knome> ;)
<knome> what kind of resources could we gather for finding a patch that fixes the crashes completely?
 * flocculant has the position that if maintenance is 'slow' then we should look to replacing it
<knome> do we know if it's thunar or glib or their combination?
<ochosi> it's changes in glib afaik
 * flocculant also is completely aware that he can't help :(
<ochosi> i talked to hjudt about it when i met him some weeks ago
<flocculant> ochosi: ack - that's my understanding
<knome> ochosi, can you lock him in a basement?
<ochosi> generally speaking i'm against dropping thunar for two reasons: 1) we're replacing a core xfce/desktop component, which makes us less xfce and 2) we give less incentive to (actual and potential) thunar devs to fix the issue
<flocculant> I don't know that we need to take up more time tonight - I just wanted 'team' to be up to date
<ochosi> knome: i dont think so
<knome> yep, i'm leaning to ochosi's side
<knome> and also, the replacement should be really good..
<flocculant> ochosi: I understand that - but if people start *shrugging* and moving on - what have we accomplished? 
<ochosi> flocculant: ok if it was just an update does that mean we move to the cursor bug for the last 2mins? :)
<flocculant> ochosi: yep :D
<ochosi> well we have to motivate someone to dig into thunar
<flocculant> yea 
<ochosi> that's basically it
<ochosi> anyway, let's move on
<ochosi> #subtopic Cursor bug
<flocculant> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/xserver-xorg-video-intel/+bug/1568604
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1568604 in xserver-xorg-video-intel (Ubuntu) "Mouse cursor lost when unlocking with Intel graphics" [High,Confirmed]
<knome> i think i've hit that
<ochosi> yeah, that one is annoying and i've been seeing it too
<knome> and for me, moving the cursor in light-locker before logging in is a workaround
<ochosi> not much fun, thanks intel!
<flocculant> has the debbug as fix released, freedesktop as confirmed
<flocculant> heat is 722
<knome> so, a fix is landing for .1?
<knome> :P
<flocculant> anyone suspending with intel will hit it
<knome> i don't suspend
<knome> :P
<knome> but i guess the fix is a fix for both situations
<flocculant> I don't know - don't understand the relationships - which is why I wanted to bring it up
<ochosi> what relationship?
<flocculant> knome: actually /s/suspend/lock I think
<knome> flocculant, ...i don't lock
<knome> i just log in
<flocculant> ochosi: between this upstream issues and getting it down here? 
<flocculant> like an update to the packages - so at least we can test it 
<flocculant> another I understand ... 
<ochosi> i guess our debian liaison can explain that :)
<flocculant> that it's not *us* but we are out there :D
<ochosi> Unit193: ^
<flocculant> knome: then I don't know - and you're completely different than all the other reports 
<flocculant> unsurprisingly :p
<knome> i'm always very different
<knome> yep
<ochosi> well as far as i can tell there's not too much we can actually do as the intel driver is not under our control, we can only forward and highlight the issue to ubuntu devs
<Unit193> ochosi: https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=815135#30
<ochosi> or to someone who can package the changes/fixes for ubuntu so we can test
<ubottu> Debian bug 815135 in xserver-xorg-video-intel "No cursor displayed" [Normal,Open]
<knome> ochosi, like Unit193?
<flocculant> ochosi: yep - I know that, I just wanted to be bring these things up in meeting - being the one who feels the blame/heat :)
<flocculant> I can at least test it if we can get something I can install somehow
<aaronraimist> I would also love to test this!
<ochosi> anyway, i gotta run
<Unit193> ochosi: So in regards to your idea of GTK3 Xfce in Yakkety, what were you thinking here?  Surely we don't want to be shipping git snapshots of random (not main) git repos.
<flocculant> ochosi: thanks :)
<ochosi> feel free to work through the other issues without me
<knome> #subtopic Back to User Team Lead
<ochosi> Unit193: i was thinking: wait for gaston and others to release the plugins and then include them
<ochosi> Unit193: no snapshots
<knome> where were we
<Unit193> Yeah I certainly don't want snapshots.
<slickymaster> I have to go also
<flocculant> aaronraimist: if we get something to test - it'll end up shouted out on the dev list and social media
<slickymaster> little one hasn't eat yet and it's way past dinner time
<knome> flocculant, you we're starting a wallpaper example 
<flocculant> oh yea
<Unit193> ochosi: I have a tiny tracking page on some of that, want me to move it to the Xubuntu wiki so you can update it too?
<ochosi> Unit193: yeah pls!
<ochosi> ok, gotta go now, have a good one
<Unit193> Byebye!
 * flocculant is interested in that stuff too
<knome> thanks ochosi, ttyl
<ochosi> knome: can you also put up the minutes?
<flocculant> cya ochosi 
<knome> ochosi, sure
<ochosi> ok, thanks everyone and catchy'all later
<ochosi> knome: ty
<flocculant> knome: ok so back to user lead thing and wallpaper example
<knome> yes
<flocculant> so we did that
<flocculant> amongst the 12 of us
<flocculant> we should have done that much earlier and included the community - likely wouldn't have made much difference - but, it would have included them
<flocculant> and saying
<flocculant> 'they could have had submissions' 
<flocculant> is not the same thing
<knome> how would the user team lead have changed the situation?
<flocculant> a User Team Lead would likely have been more proactive at putting that side
<knome> yeah, but the schedule was what it was
<flocculant> simply because 'job'
<flocculant> then the schedule fails
<knome> we've acknowledged that and are preparing to involve the community the next time
<flocculant> yes I know that :)
<flocculant> I'm just putting forward the idea that we'd not lose by having a User Team Lead 
<knome> i'm playing the opposition and asking: what do we gain by having one?
<knome> and realistically, who would be up for that?
<flocculant> they'd be 1/14th of team - but it's a positive inclusion of the people we aim to please
<pleia2> that's an example we know about and have already made efforts to improve in the future, do you have other concerns?
<flocculant> oh sigh
<flocculant> it's not about concerns :)
<pleia2> sorry, I'm just trying to square this role with what I'm already trying to do in my marketing role
<flocculant> it's about Xubuntu being more :)
<knome> indeed
<flocculant> pleia2: marketing is something else entirely different - unless we have some different definition of marketing :)
<pleia2> flocculant: apparently we do
<knome> flocculant, what she's saying is that she's working on the tasks that have been brought up already
<pleia2> for example, I do a lot of this kind of thing: https://twitter.com/ManishChaks/status/724531400054071296
<flocculant> marketing is NOT the guy next door who has no voice
<knome> - whether it's pure marketing or not
<pleia2> also on facebook, g+
<pleia2> I'd love to do more, since people talk about xubuntu a lot more than I can reply to
<flocculant> pleia2: yes I see some of those things - not twitter though
<pleia2> so I'm wondering, would a user team be responsible for keeping an eye on this and responding too? or just be more active in bringing things to the attention of the dev team? or..?
<flocculant> pleia2: perhaps both? 
<flocculant> I don't know :)
<pleia2> alright
<flocculant> I'm just not willing to spend time looking into it if all that's going to happen is a handful of *shrug* :)
<pleia2> shall I create an etherpad where we start drafting "what we do now" and "what you want to see" ideas?
<knome> is there anything else apart from what has been raised up that the user team lead would do?
<flocculant> pleia2: works for me 
<knome> pleia2, ++
<pleia2> ok, will do momentarily
<knome> please action unless you do it right now, in that case #link
<flocculant> knome: not a clue until it starts getting written down :)
<pleia2> will link, sec
<pleia2> #link http://pad.ubuntu.com/xubuntu-user-team-proposal
 * flocculant has just been be *thinking* 
<knome> cheerio
<flocculant> cya knome ?
<flocculant> best chair someone else before you go :)
<knome> i was just thanking pleia2 :D
<knome> do want to talk about the wiki?
<knome> or in other words, was there anything else except an update on the situation?
<flocculant> I think that's dealt with isn't it? 
<knome> no
<flocculant> other than update 
<knome> let's skip it
<knome> and do next time if needed
<knome> #topic Schedule next meeting
 * flocculant shuts eyes
<knome> #info Debian Liaison Unit193 to schedule next meeting
<flocculant> \o/
<knome> #endmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting ended Fri May 20 21:49:21 2016 UTC.  
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/xubuntu-devel/2016/xubuntu-devel.2016-05-20-20.31.moin.txt
<knome> thanks
<flocculant> shutting eyes works :p
<flocculant> thanks all 
<knome> i will put the minutes up later
<knome> flocculant, two more people between you and Unit193 :P
<flocculant> \o/
<flocculant> at this rate I can do meeting in Zachary Zebuu
<flocculant> :D
<knome> yeah
<Unit193> ochosi,flocculant: http://wiki.xubuntu.org/devel/gtk3 is the wikiified page of my doc. :P
<flocculant> Unit193: thanks
<flocculant> Unit193: you might be able to help me, grabbed the clipman from git, built it, installed it
<flocculant> but if I add clipman to panel I get the normal one it seems
<flocculant> what did I do wrong :p
<Unit193> Mhmm, the panel is looking in the system installed location, not /usr/local/ (IIRC)
<Unit193> gtk+3.0 3.20.5-1 uploaded to Debian.
<Unit193> flocculant: Oh, I kind of dropped that.  I could likely add it to the wiki and also package it up.
<flocculant> Unit193: I'd be happy enough to add *the whole shebang* locally ofc
<Unit193> flocculant: Because I'm mildly lazy, can you cd to the git dir, make sure it's up to date and clean, then   make distcheck and give me the tarball? :P
<flocculant> ha ha ha 
<flocculant> what? 
<flocculant> I can do those things - but how :p
<Unit193> Whereever you cloned the git repo to, just go in there, `git pull`, `git clean -fd`, and then  `./autogen.sh && make distcheck` ?
<flocculant> what's the backtick for? 
<flocculant> cos it just > on me ... 
<knome> it's just a quote
<knome> don't type them :P
<flocculant> nvm only had the end one
<flocculant> meh error
<flocculant> how come it built for me - or is this something else ?
<flocculant> ../../../tests/test_targets.c:34:66: error: dereferencing pointer to incomplete type âGtkSelectionData {aka struct _GtkSelectionData}â
<Unit193> You didn't run tests.
<flocculant> heh heh
<flocculant> [23:45:51] <Unit193> flocculant: Because I'm mildly lazy, can you cd to the git dir, make sure it's up to date and clean, then   make distcheck and give me the tarball? :P
<flocculant> [23:48:13] <Unit193> Whereever you cloned the git repo to, just go in there, `git pull`, `git clean -fd`, and then  `./autogen.sh && make distcheck` ?
<Unit193> flocculant: Where's the git repo?
<flocculant> Unit193: oh good lord :P - ochosi, bluesabre and you were talking about it the other night 
<flocculant> did I grab the wring thing? 
<flocculant> https://github.com/ochosi/xfce4-clipman-plugin.git
<Unit193> Not sure I was actually talking about clipman at any point. :D
<flocculant> aah - you didn't bluesabre and ochosi :)
<Unit193> flocculant: FWIW, I actually tried and yeah distcheck fails for certain.
<flocculant> oh good :)
<flocculant> not me then \o/
#xubuntu-devel 2016-05-21
<Unit193> xfdashy is PPA'd.
<bluesabre> flocculant: that looks right, didn't try to distcheck it
 * Unit193 looks at bluesabre closely.
<bluesabre> ew, bug 1579712
<ubottu> bug 1579712 in appstream (Ubuntu Xenial) "Refresh hangs indefinitely, appstreamcli using 100% CPU" [High,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1579712
<bluesabre> I'll package up gtk3 exo into https://launchpad.net/~xubuntu-dev/+archive/ubuntu/xfce4-gtk3 today to aid development
<bluesabre> bbl
<ochosi> bluesabre: great news all over the place!
<ochosi> flocculant, bluesabre: fwiw my clipman work is already in git.xfce.org in the master branch
<ochosi> i'll read the backlog of the meeting later, i sent the two emails btw
<Unit193> bluesabre: See also http://wiki.xubuntu.org/devel/gtk3 in case you haven't.
<ochosi> Unit193: oh, the tests fail, i admit i haven't touched those at all
<bluesabre> Unit193: nice
<bluesabre> updated the xfce wiki with my progress
<Unit193> FWIW, I've been versioning them so it's clear what you get, and putting them in my PPA first so I can smoketest in a VM as we don't want broken stuff like xfconf in the gtk3 repo, chasing people off so they don't test at all. :P
<Unit193> xfce4-session sounds fun.
<Unit193> Or actually -settings?  That one has to embed the windows.
<ochosi> i guess it should be ok, afaik you can embed gtk3 windows in gtk2 (actually we do that already with the greeter settings) and vice versa
<Unit193> ochosi: plz2fix tests? :P
<ochosi> yeah, i'd love to, not sure how tbh :)
<Unit193> rm -rf tests/ :3
<ochosi> lol
<ochosi> i'll ping m8t about it i guess
<ochosi> it's nice to have some tests
<ochosi> haven't executed any of them though tbh ;)
<Unit193> Quite!  distcheck is a nice stopgap.
<Unit193> I have no idea how he crashes thunar.
#xubuntu-devel 2016-05-22
<bluesabre> Unit193: yup, -settings and embed windows
<Unit193> Also I vote for a tumbler release.
#xubuntu-devel 2017-05-15
<knome> we should do a five-year update for the resize article
<flocculant> or make the border grabbable for people ...
<flocculant> bluesabre: any thoughts on sru for thunar - again :p
<bluesabre> flocculant: yes, I should get on that
<flocculant> :)
<flocculant> just saw another comment on bug - which reminded me :)
<knome> flocculant, ask the GTK developers to do that :P
<flocculant> :)
-SwissBot:#xubuntu-devel- ::xfce4-announce:: ANNOUNCE: tumbler 0.1.90 released @ http://xfce.10915.n7.nabble.com/ANNOUNCE-tumbler-0-1-90-released-tp49293.html (by Ali Abdallah-3)
<APoliTech> hi all!
<knome> hello
#xubuntu-devel 2017-05-16
<sorinello> hello. is there any xfce app to add a system wide proxy in xubuntu ? or do I have to manually edit /etc/environment ?
<flocculant> not that I know of
<sorinello> just that... editing /etc/environment and rebooting the machine does not work
<sorinello> all the examples I find are like: http_proxy=http://myproxyserver.com:80
<sorinello> dunny if my proxy server is to be accessed using http 
<flocculant> sorinello: no idea - pretty much something that should be in #x or if no-one answers there then #ubuntu 
<flocculant> bluesabre: seems that our terminal is broken by https://github.com/gnunn1/tilix/issues/916
<flocculant> more words in xfce-dev 
<akxwi-dave> bugger
<akxwi-dave> thats a big mess up
<flocculant> well not broken by that gtihub issue itself - the change in packages does it :)
<flocculant> now I'm not even sure where I got the updated terminal package from ...
<flocculant> downgraded terminal for the moment
<flocculant> that's driving me up the wall :)
<flocculant> bluesabre: comments re terminal issue in https://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2017/05/16/%23xubuntu.html#t16:46
<flocculant> from jbicha
<cyphermox> wxl: you had asked about ip, IIRC. I just found out about 'ip -br addr' and 'ip -br link', if it helps :)
<jbicha> cyphermox: could we get --color by default like:  ip a --color
<cyphermox> jbicha: please file a bug, but I think we might as well leave that to users to alias as necessary
<cyphermox> colors typically don't work all that great on some architectures, and some servers.
<Unit193> flocculant: Did you file a bug in vte for that?  I don't see it.
<Unit193> Would be nice if it wasn't prematurely updated, or even if it wasn't in main. :P
<flocculant> Unit193: didn't do anything but install 0.8.4 so I could use it
<Unit193> Ah.
<flocculant> Unit193: I can do it now though if you want - report bug to what? terminal or something else?
<flocculant> vte2.91 I assume?
<flocculant> oh - so that doesn't work
<flocculant> *shrug*
<Unit193> flocculant: I thought you had already, if you haven't than no issue.
<Unit193> (I was looking at 
<Unit193> https://bugs.launchpad.net/~flocculant/+reportedbugs?field.searchtext=&search=Search&field.status%3Alist=NEW&field.status%3Alist=OPINION&field.status%3Alist=INVALID&field.status%3Alist=WONTFIX&field.status%3Alist=CONFIRMED&field.status%3Alist=TRIAGED&field.status%3Alist=INPROGRESS&field.status%3Alist=FIXCOMMITTED&field.status%3Alist=INCOMPLETE_WITH_RESPONSE&field.status%3Alist=INCOMPLETE_WITHOUT_RES
<Unit193> PONSE&assignee_option=any&field.assignee=&field.bug_commenter=&field.subscriber=&field.structural_subscriber=&field.tag=&field.tags_combinator=ANY&field.status_upstream-empty-marker=1&field.has_cve.used=&field.omit_dupes.used=&field.omit_dupes=on&field.affects_me.used=&field.has_patch.used=&field.has_branches.used=&field.has_branches=on&field.has_no_branches.used=&field.has_no_branches=on&field.has_
<Unit193> blueprints.used=&field.has_blueprints=on&field.has_no_blueprints.used=&field.has_no_blueprints=on&orderby=-id&start=0 in case someone already incorrectly marked it invalid.)
<Unit193> Erm....
<Unit193> Wow.
<flocculant> what?
<flocculant> I'd have told you if I reported something - you didn't need to ping me with my reported bugs :D
<Unit193> Right, that's what I was looking at and didn't see it. :P
<flocculant> :D
<Unit193> And, url is tooooo loooong.
<flocculant> indeed it is :)
<flocculant> anyway - so do you want me to report it? and to what package and I'll do it now :)
<Unit193> Nah, we'll just wait on LP 1636666
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1636666 in pcre2 (Ubuntu) "[MIR] pcre2" [Undecided,Incomplete] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1636666
<flocculant> but do something with terminal?
<flocculant> in the meantime 
<Unit193> Building now, want to test before I push?
<flocculant> I can yup
<flocculant> point me at it 
<jbicha> Unit193: it's not a bug in vte2.91
<Unit193> jbicha: https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/vte2.91/0.48.2-0ubuntu1 would disagree with you, but not my point anyway...
<jbicha> yes, but it's intentional
<Unit193> Sure, but it's an intentional bug that breaks other things, thus still a bug in vte.
<jbicha> all you have to do is patch xfce-terminal to not assume that vte 1.48 uses pcre2, change the check to vte 1.99 or whatever made-up number you want instead
<Unit193> That's what I did...
<jbicha> we'll eventually switch vte2.91 to pcre2 but the Security Team would rather that we postpone that for a while
<jbicha> pcre2 got a very high showing in https://opensource.googleblog.com/2017/05/oss-fuzz-five-months-later-and.html :(
<jbicha> https://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-archive/transitions/html/pcre2-main.html
#xubuntu-devel 2017-05-17
-SwissBot:#xubuntu-devel- ::xfce4-announce:: ANNOUNCE: xfce4-cpufreq-plugin 1.1.90 released @ http://xfce.10915.n7.nabble.com/ANNOUNCE-xfce4-cpufreq-plugin-1-1-90-released-tp49296.html (by AndrÃ© Miranda)
 * Unit193 didn't see that.
<bluesabre> ... but that sees Unit193.
<Unit193> That time already?
<bluesabre> Might be.
<akxwi-dave> flocculant:  on tester note we have Xfce4-terminal at version 0.8.5.1 won't recognise urls. can you clarify further. can fire up links2 and use urls ok  also using xdg-open http://www.xubuntu.org will fire up a browser to said url...
<knome> akxwi-dave, i think it means the links aren't recognised for mouse usage
<akxwi-dave> ahhh cheers knome..  old fashioned me... why use a mouse in a terminal.... :-)
<jbicha> akxwi-dave: I am not using Xubuntu but maybe that was fixed with https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/xfce4-terminal/0.8.5.1-0ubuntu3 (in artful-proposed)
<akxwi-dave> thx jbicha 
<flocculant> it was - but last I looked it wasn't landed 
<PaulW2U> flocculant: in proposed and works for me 
<flocculant> akxwi-dave: people tend to use lots of links in the terminal if you're using irssi - it is a royal pain in the proverbial
<flocculant> PaulW2U: ok - cheers - I had package but from elsewhere to test it last night
<akxwi-dave> cheers flocculant 
<akxwi-dave> http://www.xubuntu.org
<akxwi-dave>  opps sorry wrong screem
<flocculant> lol
<akxwi-dave> screen*
<dave___> quit
#xubuntu-devel 2017-05-19
<Unit193> Looks like we need to SRU for 1688056 too..
<flocculant> is that the weather app thing? 
<flocculant> bluesabre will be pleased :)
<Unit193> Yes.
<flocculant> mmm
<flocculant> been seeing it come up
<Unit193> Teeechnically whisker too, but that's easier to ignore than to SRU. >_>
<flocculant> whisker? 
 * flocculant is more jumpy about thunar tbh :D
<flocculant> the weather is outside the door :p
<flocculant> this weather thing had been bubbling up for a while iirc - not something that suddenly happened? 
<flocculant> that is - it was known it was going to occur - or at least that's what I read into the things I read
<flocculant> knome: just a small poke re fwd'd mail to us re Slideshow
<knome> flocculant, ack
<knome> i read it and completely agree
<knome> now we just need to not forget...
<knome> slickymaster, ping?
<flocculant> are we going to look to bringing community in for art at all? 
<flocculant> for cycle that is - cos do it now :p
<knome> i need to postpone that to at least next week, but yes, we could do that campaign about asking for ideas
<knome> (not necessarily only art, that is)
<flocculant> slickymaster and others ... re Slideshow - might be an opportune time (eg not LTS cycle) to start rejigging that - it's not really changed for years now
<flocculant> looks a bit dated perhaps ;)
<knome> yeaaah, maybe :P
<flocculant> knome: and perhaps these things might benefit from a cycle start meeting
<knome> yep
<knome> whose turn is it again :P
<flocculant> cycel start
<flocculant> should be COUNCIL !!!!
<flocculant> :)
<knome> nnnnnnnnnnaaaah
<knome> :P
<knome> ok ok
<knome> i'll get that scheduled
<flocculant> cheers
<knome> let's write a mail...
<knome> !team | ygm, please read it and consider replying if you feel at all like it
<ubottu> ygm, please read it and consider replying if you feel at all like it: team is akxwi-dave, bluesabre, dkessel, flocculant, jjfrv8, knome, krytarik, ochosi, pleia2, slickymaster and Unit193
<Unit193> ygm?
<Unit193> (Yes, yes...  But stupid movie.)
<pleia2> it was from a simpler time
<flocculant> more complicated than my simpler time :D
<flocculant> cos - what? 
<knome> and hello pleia2 
<Unit193> flocculant: "You've got mail" is a romcom.
<flocculant> oh 
<flocculant> that
<Unit193> knome: No "objections", but left looks best. :P
<knome> Unit193, you like ricE?
<krytarik> I'm fine with the new proposed one.
<knome> maybe i should've also wrote "it's supposed to be as unobtrusive as possible on most sizes"
<knome> this is really a slight change, you're seeing the differences so well because it's pumped up to a LARGE size
 * flocculant responds to art mail - hilariously :D
<flocculant> krytarik: !!!
<flocculant> I thought you were lost forever :(
<knome> why would you think that? :)
<Unit193> "Quit yer yappin'!  I don't see enough difference to bother a hair about"
<flocculant> or at least some weeks :)
<knome> so many lurkers
<Unit193> /mode +b tracker*!*@*
 * flocculant tried to use anames.pl 
<knome> i wa referring to people not talking but suddenly replying to mail :P
<flocculant> that went really well - it crashed irssi - all I wanted was away people in some other colour
<flocculant> knome: :D
<Unit193> flocculant: ...Works forme!
<flocculant> pleia2: I remember back a while when we had all manner of what tool for usb's - Spass mentioned this - an I've used it - and it was simple to use once you had it - https://etcher.io/
<flocculant> only actually tells me about usb's plugged in - not all the other drives I have 
<flocculant> not quicker though - I assume it uses the same backend to do the job
<pleia2> neat
<pleia2> I
<pleia2> I'm still using and recommending gnome disks
<flocculant> yea - I was using that too until Spass mentioned it and I went and looked
 * pleia2 nods
<flocculant> oh yea - I looked at License - then I wasn't sure ... Apache License 2.0
 * flocculant will wait for others to decide if someone with Team hat on should suggest that as a tool given license
<Unit193> !info etcher
<ubottu> Package etcher does not exist in artful
<Unit193> Nope!
<flocculant> well yea I knew that
<flocculant> I was most interested in comment on licence tbh :p
<Unit193> Apache licnese 2.0 is "fine"
<flocculant> not awful then 
<Unit193> https://tldrlegal.com/license/apache-license-2.0-(apache-2.0)  According to someone else, it's 'fun' because:  "If you fork an AL2 project on GitHub in your free GitHub account, and make changes in preparation for submitting a PR, without adding notices in changed files for all your changes, you've violated the license and may be subject to lawsuits." -- "On the other hand (re: AL2), if you *do* 
<Unit193> add all those notices, the upstream project will probably reject your PR, because they don't need the notices (being the copyright holders in the first place)."
#xubuntu-devel 2017-05-21
<Unit193> bluesabre: https://git.xfce.org/panel-plugins/xfce4-pulseaudio-plugin/commit/?id=a7c7cefc41a7f43144221ad8c0dd7257d688bfae
<ochosi> ah nice, finally!
<ochosi> :)
<ochosi> that makes it roughly 50% more useful
<Unit193> Just need mpris and indicator-sound is a dupe.  I'd take mpris over mic personally. :P
<Unit193> FWIW, $elsewhere I uses pa-plug, and it looks a loooot like indicator-sound.
<ochosi> yeah, i know
<ochosi> well there's a separate mpris plugin, but i don't like its looks
<Unit193> Right, it's more of a panel player, like Windows media player in XP was, nobody ever liked it. :>
<ochosi> exactly
#xubuntu-devel 2018-05-14
<Unit193> bluesabre: Did you want to gitify xfce4-indicator-plugin for Debian?
<flocculant> something I didn't know I was missing till I read someone else has it - a New button in screenshot :)
 * flocculant might pretend to work out how to add that over the next 4 cycles :p
<akxwi-dave> lol
<ali1234> anyone tried vlc on 18.04? it seems to be completely busted
<ali1234> gui is completely unresponsive and sometimes it won't even let me focus the window
<flocculant> worked ok a while back here - though I do tend to just once a cycle give in to the hype and try it again - so not for long 
<Unit193> I just used it last night.
<ali1234> it might be because i am using nouveau
<ali1234> also here's a fun bug: ristretto associates itself with pgm files, even though it cannot open them...
<Unit193> I too am using nouveau
<Unit193> I'm going to presume that it's too late to announce a meeting tomorrow at 1600 local time. :P
<krytarik> I don't think this would be unprecedented anyway. :P
<Unit193> ..And that's why I shouldn't use templates! :D
<ali1234> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ristretto/+bug/1771227
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1771227 in ristretto (Ubuntu) "Ristretto is the default MIME handler for PGM files, even though it cannot display them" [Undecided,New]
<bluesabre> evening all
#xubuntu-devel 2018-05-15
<Unit193> bluesabre: Howdy.
<bluesabre> hey there Unit193 
<bluesabre> Thanks for scheduling the meeting
<bluesabre> :)
<Unit193> Short notice is best notice? :3
<bluesabre> Definitely.
<krytarik> "Tue" makes it clear enough? :P
<Unit193> Weirdest part?  I nearly always schedule it on the same day, at the same time.
<krytarik> Oh, it's two years in the past too. :P
<krytarik> Well, in the message body at least.
<Unit193> [19:00:20] < Unit193> ..And that's why I shouldn't use templates! :D
<Unit193> [19:21:11] <+Unit193> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/xubuntu-devel/2018-May/011660.html - Yes, I expect you to use a time machine to attend.
<krytarik> Oh, the day was actually right though.. >_>
<Unit193> "But the one in Jan of 2016 was an hour off!" Not local time.
<Unit193> Next community meeting, Mon, 05 Jan 2015 22:00 +0000
<Unit193> Dunno what I was doing here.
<Unit193> bluesabre: So, sn-plugin?
<bluesabre> Unit193: gitifying it?
<Unit193> Yes, git and push to salsa.debian.org/pkg-ayatana-team/?
<flocculant> Unit193: I'll be awake still at 9pm :)
<Unit193> \o/
 * flocculant adds stuff to agenda
<flocculant> sorry :)
<Unit193> Bah, figured someone would try to snipe and get stuff in.  Should make a rule, no adding after 24h before meeting. :P
<flocculant> that'd be awesome for you and your set meeting less than 24 hours before a meeting :D
<Unit193> Yep!
<Unit193> Though really, it does help to add things before announce.  I tend to wait until there's something to discuss. :3
<flocculant> well most of that is pretty new to need talking up :)
<knome> Unit193, adding the new meeting time is a trivial update? i don't think so ;)
<knome> (also, you can't fly under my radar...)
<knome> i mean unseen
<knome> :P
-SwissBot:#xubuntu-devel- ::xfce4-announce:: ANNOUNCE: xfce4-terminal 0.8.7.4 released @ http://xfce.10915.n7.nabble.com/ANNOUNCE-xfce4-terminal-0-8-7-4-released-tp51030.html (by Igor Zakharov)
<Unit193> knome: I'd say so, certainly.
<ochosi> Unit193: quite ballsy to announce a meeting on the same day :D
<ochosi> we'll see, maybe spontaneous is better
<akxwi-dave> lol...maybe
<flocculant> ha ha 
<bluesabre> Evening some
<akxwi-dave> howdy
<bluesabre> On my phone, so will be slow to respond
<flocculant> hi bluesabre 
<flocculant> or blue sab r r  r  r e
<flocculant> slow because network - or stupid sized keyboard - you'd know if I was droing tgat
<akxwi-dave> :    -     )
<albinard> hello
<flocculant> hi albinard :)
<akxwi-dave> hi albinard 
<flocculant> thanks once again for the core tests :)
<albinard> okay, hi both of you!
<albinard> Tests: my pleasure, ready to go on the next series!
<flocculant> albinard: when you do - can you report to the tracker please :) http://iso.qa.ubuntu.com/qatracker/milestones/390/builds/172026/testcases
<bluesabre> Excellent :)
<albinard> Yes, I finally figured out how to do that properly - sorry I took so long!
<flocculant> albinard: no problem - I'm more likely to notice there ;)
<akxwi-dave> :-)
<flocculant> who other than Unit193 is here for the meeting? 
<akxwi-dave> :-) lol
<akxwi-dave> o/
<bluesabre> Me
<Spass> hello, I'm a silent spectator, interested in Xubuntu
<flocculant> shall I start it then? 
<albinard> Me too, though I'm punching way above my weight
<flocculant> bluesabre: ?
 * gQuigs here to watch and try to provide any i386 stats (or other stats if needed) if I have them..
<flocculant> albinard: nope - you're in the community
<flocculant> weight enough for a community meeting
<bluesabre> flocculant: begin :)
<flocculant> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Tue May 15 20:08:59 2018 UTC.  The chair is flocculant. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
<flocculant> #chair bluesabre Unit193 
<meetingology> Current chairs: Unit193 bluesabre flocculant
<flocculant> bunch of actions ...
<knome> just a note that i might not be able to do the council stuff "first", so feel free to start with other discussion
<flocculant> knome: ack - ping when you can then :)
<knome> yep - or we can just do it "last"
<flocculant> ochosi: do you know if gradient swap-out and updating icons was done?
<flocculant> bluesabre: what about elemntary-xfce?
<flocculant> knome: okey doke
<bluesabre> flocculant: all actions completed
<ochosi> the gradient swapout has been done
<flocculant> ack
<ochosi> that all went into 18.04
<bluesabre> Hi ochosi
<flocculant> do we need to #done them?
<ochosi> evening all
<flocculant> #chair ochosi 
<meetingology> Current chairs: Unit193 bluesabre flocculant ochosi
<ochosi> we can if you want
<ochosi> just for completeness sake
<flocculant> I'll copy paste
<ochosi> (also feels nice having #done something ;))
<flocculant> #done bluesabre will push beaaf3f6f47fb1e80fb7821fe69b3513a707cfbe and 28120d05e011ec89412d33d7dc5897d7f6bcf8ee from elementary-xfce to xubuntu-artwork as bugfix 
<flocculant> #done ochosi and ali1234 will try to script the gradient swap-out for most icons that need updating 
<flocculant> #done ochosi will manually update whatever icons are left over from the script approach 
<flocculant> #done knome will file the UIFe paperwork once the branch is ready 
<flocculant> #done bluesabre will again be doing the uploading honours 
<bluesabre> Very nice
<ochosi> awesome, thanks flocculant 
<flocculant> ok - moving swiftly along I'll skip updates for the moment for knome 
<flocculant> #topic Disucssion
<flocculant> #undo
<meetingology> Removing item from minutes: TOPIC
<ochosi> :]
<flocculant> #opic Discussion
<flocculant> #topic Discussion
<ochosi> ok, so first one is from me
<flocculant> sigh
<ochosi> i forgot to put my nick after the topic
<flocculant> #subtopic List of Xfce 4.13 components we plan to include in 18.10
<flocculant> I guessed :)
<ochosi> we compiled a list of components and split them up to PPAs for 18.04
<ochosi> and i felt we really did a good job there
<flocculant> ack
<ochosi> made sure that we got stable but up to date stuff in
 * flocculant still using that as bionic
<ochosi> for 18.10 i would actually love to integrate more 4.13 components
<ochosi> one of the things i would vote for including is the panel
<knome> +1 for that
<knome> (4.13)
<flocculant> yep - using that
<Unit193>  ochosi: Was a different day.  The crappy part is showing up 20 minutes late...
<knome> we have 2 years until the next LTS, this is the perfect time to introduce new stuff
<ochosi> probably because i've spent a lot of time on the port, probably because i've been using it daily for >9months without problems
<flocculant> Unit193: welcome back :)
<Unit193> Yeah...Sorry all for not being on time..
<ochosi> knome: yeah, that's exactly my point
<flocculant> you can take the reins now if you're ready
<ochosi> Unit193: lol, it's fine, actually there are a lot of ppl here, so good job!
<akxwi-dave> :-)
<bluesabre> back at my computer
<flocculant> :)
<ochosi> so, i dunno if we wanna discuss the actual components now
<ochosi> for me it was mostly a reminder that we should do that soon
<flocculant> ochosi: wa sjust going to ask that :)
<ochosi> can do it offline without a meeting too, to keep this one short/er
<bluesabre> is the panel in a ppa somewhere currently?
<flocculant> or take ti to m/l ?
<ochosi> but i would've wanted a brief vote or feedback from all of you if you agree on this direction (aka "include more 4.13 components")
<flocculant> bluesabre: checking
<ochosi> bluesabre: not sure tbh
<bluesabre> we'll have other things taken to the ml as well, most likely
<Unit193> I am running several GTK3 ports, just not thunar, xfdesktop, or xfce4-panel.
<flocculant> bluesabre: nope
<bluesabre> ochosi: I'm in favor of including more gtk3 bits
<akxwi-dave> +1 for me on the more 4.13
<ali1234> include everything
<flocculant> I'd +1 adding the things
<ochosi> ali1234: i would be sceptical of xfwm4 tbh
<ochosi> but the rest is probably fine
<Unit193> I'd say hard no to xfwm.
<ali1234> will get fixed a lot quicker if it's infront of people :)
<ochosi> but anyway, we should probably have a separate discussion about the actual list
<flocculant> saves me saying that Unit193 ^^
<bluesabre> ochosi: sounds fair
<ochosi> wanna cast a quick vote?
<flocculant> wfm
<ochosi> or is nobody objecting anyway
<bluesabre> xfwm seems objected to, but that seems like it
<flocculant> objection to 1 thing :)
 * ochosi frantically tries to remember the right order of meetingology vote commands
<ali1234> maybe it would be easier to make a list of things to *not* include?
<flocculant> # vote if that's what you want
<flocculant> with no space ofc
<ochosi> flocculant: yeah, but i thought there was more
<flocculant> # voters
<flocculant> *shrug*
<knome> is there anything we *don't* want to include?
<flocculant> I'd just go with it - we know which +1's would be team
<flocculant> xfwm4 
<flocculant> knome: ^^
<knome> because it's broken?
<bluesabre> basically
<bluesabre> has lots of issues for some people
<knome> yes
<ochosi> #vote 18.10 shall - in general - contain more 4.13 components.
<meetingology> Please vote on: 18.10 shall - in general - contain more 4.13 components.
<meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (for private voting, private message me with 'vote +1/-1/+0 #channelname)
<flocculant> I've got the ppa version I believe
<flocculant> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from flocculant
<knome> but the goal is to have it included in 20.04?
<ochosi> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from ochosi
<akxwi-dave> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from akxwi-dave
<bluesabre> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from bluesabre
<krytarik> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from krytarik
<knome> i mean obvs we're not going to include $other_component if it's very broken either
<knome> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from knome
<bluesabre> knome: I think that's the goal
<bluesabre> I've been telling folks that xfce 4.14 isn't much further away
<bluesabre> (and it's not)
<knome> yep
<ochosi> settings also has some issues, but i guess our motivation to fix that is higher if we decide to include it
<knome> exactly
<ochosi> (and it's another component team members are actively working on)
<bluesabre> yup
<knome> if we don't include it now, what are the chances it's getting the love later
<flocculant> I'd guess really broken things are a bit different to mostly working
<flocculant> knome: we'd be saying that in 19.10
<knome> i want to say that now :)
<Unit193> #endvote
<meetingology> Voting ended on: 18.10 shall - in general - contain more 4.13 components.
<meetingology> Votes for:6 Votes against:0 Abstentions:0
<meetingology> Motion carried
<knome> because then we really have "all the time" for making stuff work
<bluesabre> I think settings is near enough to 100% that it can be included with one or two more fixes
<flocculant> knome: you here now for the updates things?
<flocculant> if so tell Unit193 :)
<knome> Unit193, let's do the council stuff last.
<Unit193> knome: Alright.
<Unit193> #subtopic Continued support of i386 images
<Unit193> bluesabre: Hello.
<ochosi> bluesabre: yeah, there's broken mouse scrolling, some more small things, nothing which can't be handled
 * flocculant puts kettle on 
<bluesabre> Unit193: hello
<bluesabre> So, most of the flavors are dropping i386 this cycle
<akxwi-dave> akxwi-dave: open s the wine
<bluesabre> I think only lubuntu and xubuntu remain at this point...
<flocculant> yep
<Unit193> I'm slightly biased, I use 32bit Xubuntu.
<akxwi-dave> my current seeds totals are 54.5 gig for 32 and 48.5 for 64
<bluesabre> I test 32 in a vm only
<bluesabre> I suspect that might be the case for a lot of us
<ali1234> seed totals are biased though, if fewer people seed the 32 bit images
<knome> my question (we can't answer) is if that's because people "do not know better" or because they really need it?
<bluesabre> Do we think i386 can be sufficiently tested by our two small teams and a relatively small portion of the community?
<albinard> Lot of download server places advertise "if you're unsure, use 32-bit"
<flocculant> my torrents favour 64 bit - or did
<flocculant> bluesabre: I don't 
<flocculant> I'm concerned on a couple of points
<bluesabre> and what do we gain if we were to drop support for it?
<Unit193> Only one official ISO to test.
<akxwi-dave> since 15.10 mine have been roughly half and half,  and as for testing i'm not we can test sufficiently 
<Spass> but isn't keeping 32-bit ISOs a chance for Xubuntu to bring some users from MATE?
<ochosi> i haven't used/seen 32bit anywhere in years, so i personally wouldn't mind dropping. then again, if there are ppl who need it and we think we want to afford the extra testing effort...
<ochosi> (btw, if more testing gets automated - which was pronounced a goal by other flavors - we may end up having more time for testing)
<flocculant> ochosi: we get a few vm tests - possibly 1 or 2 people who test hardware (iirc)
<flocculant> ochosi: but that's install testing only
<knome> do normal social media calls for testing and specifically mention we need 32-bit *hardware* tests and also that if we do not get that, then we'll likely drop 32-bit?
<flocculant> nope
<flocculant> oh
<Unit193> And I don't do install testing on real hardware, I only test the release.
<flocculant> was that a do we? knome 
<knome> that was one suggestion
<flocculant> oh right
<akxwi-dave> i test to only test 32 on real hardware come beta's, all others are VM..  64 is usually mis of hardware and vm throughout
<bluesabre> I think the last thing I'd note, if lubuntu drops it, I don't think it makes sense for us to maintain it officially... and if we drop it, lubuntu may well follow suit
<flocculant> mmm
<bluesabre> so we're in a funny position atm :)
<flocculant> :)
<knome> well, lubuntu has kept all kinds of low-end stuff enabled
<knome> in the past, that is
<knome> when we didn't
<knome> so another way to look at it is to ask ourselves if we want to support "legacy" hardware, or if we trust lubuntu does that
<ali1234> what about xubuntu core?
<knome> unfortunately it's not even "official" yet
<flocculant> so what we're really asking is - do we sit on the fence
<bluesabre> hoping to rectify the official status in the next month or so
<knome> making it official will already bring new tests for us to do
<bluesabre> indeed
<knome> should we do a very quick preliminary, non-binding vote?
<bluesabre> so we could end up with 1-4 test suites based on this decision and making core official
<knome> or even a non-#vote, just +1 or -1 for dropping?
<bluesabre> Note that 32bit Xubuntu could still be installed via the mini iso
<bluesabre> as is the case with all the flavors
<knome> yeah...
<knome> that's a good point.
<flocculant> not sure if they intend to keep mini 32 bit
<bluesabre> also a good point
<knome> if not, isn't that a very strong message against 32-bit?
<Unit193> You can install without that as long as the archive is there.
<Unit193> ali1234: I'll follow whatever desktop does, though.
<flocculant> I 'think' I saw - they can use server to install *-desktop
<knome> basically xubuntu is much less the OS for the slow/old computers than it used to
<knome> the change is reflected not only in the strategy document, but i don't think we have made very many decisions that specifically favor low-end machines either
<bluesabre> "Xubuntu does not explicitly target users with low, modest, or high powered machines but instead targets the entire spectrum. Xubuntu's extra responsiveness and speed, among other positive traits, can be appreciated by all users, regardless of their hardware." https://docs.xubuntu.org/contributors/xsd.html
<Unit193> At this point is anyone in favor of keeping 32bit, or is this an echo chamber?
<bluesabre> I'm not against keeping them
<bluesabre> But supporting 32 can be difficult, we had some 32bit specific bugs last cycle
<knome> me neither really...
<flocculant> point
<flocculant> if we are getting xfce from upstream - how much work gets done there for 32 bit? 
<flocculant> or is it a bit of a wasteland there in that regard?
<bluesabre> I think any arch-specific support upstream is only added when there's an issue
<knome> i don't know for 32-bit specifically, but xfce is trying to support as many systems as possible, at least historically
<knome> not really sure what the current state is
<flocculant> well so did Xubuntu
<Spass> my previous comment was ignored, and probably was stupid, but do you see a chance for bringing ("stealing"?) some users wanting 32-bit from Ubuntu MATE?
<knome> we never had support outside 32-bit or 64-bit :)
<bluesabre> Spass: sorry about that... I don't imagine we'd win users from MATE just by having the 32-bit support
<knome> Spass, what's the gain if we gain new users from mate if it gives us more work but no more contributors?
<ali1234> yes knome, come to the dark side :)
<flocculant> Unit193: round and round - stop the roundabout :p
<Spass> well, more users = more potentially contributors?
<bluesabre> yeah, that potential exists
<flocculant> Spass: wanting xfce to be mate ?
<knome> i don't think it's very likely :P
<bluesabre> but yeah, I think we can have that non-binding vote to see where the team is currently standing
<Unit193> flocculant: Sounds like "Too early to tell, table it and see what happens with the discussion on the mailing list" to me.
<flocculant> wfm
<knome> and yeah, if 32-bit is the thing people want, i'm pretty sure they would go to just other distros with mate and 32-bit?
<ochosi> Unit193: +1
<bluesabre> Unit193: +1
<knome> yeah, wfm.
<ochosi> Unit193: hint: casting votes can make discussions end earlier ;)
<flocculant> Unit193: +1
<akxwi-dave> +1
<bluesabre> I like this nick voting system
<knome> haha
<flocculant> eveeryone loves Unit193 :)
<Unit193> Sounds like this discussion is tabled for now.
<bluesabre> <3
<knome> it's Unit196 now?
<flocculant> Unit193: ta
<Unit193> #agree Topic tabled for now, will follow the mailing list for further information.
<Unit193> #subtopic Move seed to Git
<flocculant> aah yea
<flocculant> that was mostly a - did we do this? if not are we? 
<Unit193> Pretty sure bluesabre and I are in favor, we're migrating everything to git as far as I knew.
<Unit193> bluesabre had already done several, I've had a rolling one for the docs for quite some time.
<knome> i don't think it makes sense not to at this point
<Unit193> I have no clue how translations work with that, but we'll find out.
<flocculant> ok - I did see discussions about other things - just wasn't sure re that specific thing
 * flocculant is happy to move swiftly along
<bluesabre> Unit193: what I have found so far is that translations are still tied to bzr
<ochosi> looking forward to just using git
<ochosi> our LP branches have always been my sole and only use-case for bzw
<ochosi> bzr
<bluesabre> so they can be synced to lp via import and then have to be manually imported later
<knome> for transparency reasons, please let's vote on the git migration
<ochosi> and i'm not angry if i can forget about the bzr commands
<knome> or at least do some mailing list action
<Unit193> bluesabre: I'd think there has to be a way..
<knome> send a mail, ask for comments and if nothing comes up within specified time (week or two), consider it approved
<bluesabre> Unit193: please look into that, https://launchpad.net/sgt-launcher has the system I detailed just before
<ochosi> can't we cast a vote here?
<knome> ochosi, we can do that, do we reach quorum?
<knome> that's the only question
<knome> eg. do we need to take it to the ml anyway...
<Unit193> knome: I mean, we're kind of already doing it..
<flocculant> 6 voted last time - team is 11 with daniel kessel
<knome> Unit193, i know...
<bluesabre> not sure a vote is really needed, the code is staying on launchpad so the permission and availability systems remain the same
<Unit193> knome: ...Just have the dev team vote! ;)
<knome> i just want it documented
<knome> i'm fine if the dev team is the voters :P
<ochosi> then let's just #agree
<flocculant> +1
<ochosi> then it's documented too
<bluesabre> I'm in favor
<knome> wfm
<akxwi-dave> +1 for what the dev team want
<knome> as long as there is that archived bit
<knome> so it's not a surprise 5 years later when nobody here is on the team any more (yeah ha ha) and people wonder how this happened
<bluesabre> Xubuntu 23.10 Mighty Mollusk
<knome> ;)
 * flocculant will have fun with MM if he's alive still
<flocculant> should have seen the first https://wiki.xubuntu.org/_detail/qa/newgrub.png?id=qa%3Afine_tuning
<flocculant> anyway 
<bluesabre> so, then # agree it :)
<flocculant> #agree Dev Team moves to Git as they see fit
<flocculant> bluesabre could have done it
<bluesabre> yeah, suppose I am in fact a chair
<flocculant> I made sure :p
<Unit193> #subtopic Milestone changes
<flocculant> So - old style milestones have mostly gone now
<flocculant> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CosmicCuttlefish/ReleaseTaskSignup
<flocculant> 1 Beta left at the end of the cycle
<flocculant> no iso's built other than dailies until then (afaik)
<flocculant> We'll NOT be doing anything next week ;)
<knome> so there will be no flavor-organized freezes for their images?
<flocculant> no
<flocculant> I think I was the only one who wanted that
<knome> or do we just decide $this_daily to be a milestone?
<knome> meh, that would have been nice
<bluesabre> sounds like the iso just rolls throughout that week
<knome> aren't some old dailies kept intact on the servers?
<flocculant> the 'plan' is to shout like we used to - but people will get dailies to check instead of a frozen one
<flocculant> bluesabre: yea
<knome> flocculant, or a certain daily?
<flocculant> knome: not as far as I am aware - that wouldn't be any different than what we had
<bluesabre> that sounds reasonable, makes it easier to land fixes in the middle of the testing week
<flocculant> other than an iso at the end - which we tell people not to use
<flocculant> bluesabre: yea
<flocculant> though I do take exception to it being called Week
<knome> flocculant, ok, whatever you think works - it's mostly a qa/dev team cooperation thing anyway
<bluesabre> so if devs are also involved in those, it should yield better results
<flocculant> hope so
<bluesabre> I dig it
<akxwi-dave> :-)
<flocculant> and it'll stop the interminable respin issue 
<flocculant> which drove me nuts
<knome> :)
<flocculant> and just confused the issue of milestones in my opinion
<akxwi-dave> not just ypu :-)
<flocculant> anyway - pretty much a fait accompli - just bringing it up so everyone is aware
<Unit193> Alright, want to #info anything?
<flocculant> yea I guess
<flocculant> #info Milestone Alpha/Beta's change to Milestone Testing Weeks. 1 Beta remains at cycle end
<Unit193> OK, good?
<flocculant> yea - move right along the bus :)
<Unit193> #subtopic New QA Webpage
<flocculant> and me again ...
<flocculant> first off
<flocculant> #info The QA Team would like to publically thank willem and leigh (who's not in channel) for the hours of work they've put in on this
<akxwi-dave> yes .. thank you..
<bluesabre> :)
<flocculant> ok - so we have a final draft of the webpage qa landing at https://pad.ubuntu.com/qa-webpage
<flocculant> and we've now got pages on our wiki - landing page there is https://wiki.xubuntu.org/qa/new_tester_start
<flocculant> what I want to do now is have everyone check out them and comment
<flocculant> then I really want to get this out and finished asap so we've got it all done a while before the June testing week
<Spass> first link is only for the dev team? seems like I don't have an access to it
<albinard> FWIW, I could have done a better job if I'd seen that wiki page first!
<flocculant> Spass: nope - it's ether pad - you're likely not in that team
<bluesabre> That's pretty awesome
<knome> yep, good work
<knome> regardless of my nitpicky comments :P
<bluesabre> not sure who needs to be pinged to add folks to the etherpad
<flocculant> they did a lot of work
<flocculant> no idea anymore
<flocculant> Spass: it says https://paste.ubuntu.com/p/VjNXzNYx9P/
<Spass> flocculant, thanks
<flocculant> np
<flocculant> obviously the wiki is easy enough to update - just wanted to get it all live sooner rather than later
<flocculant> but also wanted to wait till it was pretty much done
<bluesabre> So we all review it and comment so it can get done sooner :)
<flocculant> yea 
<flocculant> like Friday :)
<bluesabre> soner
<bluesabre> :D
<flocculant> seriously once we do this - all the social media's and I have a draft blog page in wip on a pad
<bluesabre> I'd ! team that to get the ping out for those not currently around
<flocculant> !team | Please read the last sub-topic in here :)
<ubottu> Please read the last sub-topic in here :): akxwi-dave, bluesabre, dkessel, flocculant, jjfrv8, knome, krytarik, ochosi, pleia2, slickymaster and Unit193
<flocculant> ok - nothing more from me on that
<Unit193> OK.
<Unit193> #topic Council nominations
<Unit193> knome: â
<knome> ack, so
<Unit193> You have the floor, my good sir.
<knome> we have two nominations
<knome> the strategy document says the council is three members...
 * flocculant remembers us talking about this possibility
<knome> i wondered if this is a council issue to resolve, but i thought it's probably better just talk about it openly
<knome> i see two options:
<knome> 1) we go with a 2-member council and they agree to not disagree (or give the deciding vote to the chair/main point of contact)
<knome> 2) we do another week of nominations
<knome> and 2a) is we get new nominations and everybody is happy
<knome> 2b) is we just go with 1) anyway...
<knome> anybody have any other ideas?
<knome> i vote that we vote
<flocculant> well
<Unit193> If there's nobody else, I'll volunteer.
<flocculant> I'd posit that anyone nominating themselves now would be doing so to make the strategy doc right
<flocculant> or that ^^ :)
<akxwi-dave> just my 2 pennies worth, how about rotating the 3rd postion for each point release until someone can be ofund fultime
<flocculant> if we do vote I'm going to abstain
<knome> flocculant, ack
<knome> akxwi-dave, nah, probably better just to go with two
<knome> but
<knome> since Unit193 volunteers
<Unit193> I hesitated because I'm not entirely sure I want to stick around for 2 more years.
<flocculant> well
<knome> i'd say for equal opportunity let's give 1 more week for nominations
<knome> and Unit193 promises to nominate himself
<knome> then if we have more nominations we can do the voting dance :P
<akxwi-dave> or I can nominate him if he doen't :-)
<flocculant> 2 years anything could happen - to anyone
<knome> or are we fine with 2 extra days?
<knome> akxwi-dave, the rules say you can't nominate without the nominees consent ;)
<akxwi-dave> just about to ask him that.
<knome> Unit193, i agree with flocculant; this isn't like real-lile-binding stuff
<knome> or alternatively
<knome> can we summon ochosi back
<akxwi-dave> Unit193: can i nominate you?
<knome> and make the current council make a decision now
<Unit193> knome: Sure, but I also know it's going to happen. :)
<knome> well maybe bluesabre needs to abstain
<ochosi> i'm still around, i just felt it was time to let others step up
<bluesabre> 2 days or a week, I think either would be fine. Maybe another ping to the ML would catch the eyes of a vacationing candidate
<knome> ochosi, your opinion? wait for more days for nominations or go for it now?
<ochosi> i'm fine with either to be completely honest
<knome> me too
<ochosi> if Unit193 nominates himself and we're all cool with that then i see no problem with moving along
<knome> the reason for +1'in the latter is that we already had 2 weeks
<knome> and we could get things going *now* if we just decide
<ochosi> you mean first decide to decide and then decide? :D
<knome> lol
<ochosi> bluesabre: i'm fine with your suggestion too btw
<ochosi> i'd say if anybody has some doubts we just move it to the ML for another week and call this meeting a day
<knome> ok, let's do another 7 days
<Unit193> akxwi-dave: And I guess, as long as nobody else runs.
<knome> #action knome to send another call for council membership nominations
<meetingology> ACTION: knome to send another call for council membership nominations
<knome> done.
<ochosi> kewl
<Unit193> I'll remove that 'as long as' statement. >_>
<flocculant> xubuntu joins the everending list of *buntu teams that have to extend calls :p
<Unit193> OK, so.
<Unit193> #topic Any other business?
<knome> (the question that remains is that if we have more than 1 new candidate, are we voting between all candidates or just new, but it has to be 'all')
<flocculant> that AOB should be on the agenda properly
<flocculant> knome: and also I'll not run the vote this time :p
<Unit193> So, when will this list of 4.13 pop up, btw?  I want to get uploading already.
<knome> flocculant, haha, fine :)
<knome> flocculant, in case we have one...
<bluesabre> Cosmic blueprints? Have any of the teams starting putting theirs together?
<flocculant> just for proprieties sake
 * flocculant did the qa one
<flocculant> or started it anyway
<Unit193> bluesabre: Well, last release old items were copied over, I believe.
<knome> i think i did the last copy
<flocculant> oh 
<knome> or the one before
<knome> or sth...
<knome> but i vote that team leads do their own :P
<flocculant> I think we should have a Core meeting to put this thing to rest once and for all
<knome> flocculant, do we have an umbrella blueprint?
<knome> or anybody who knows the answer :P
<flocculant> knome: not afaik
<knome> ok
<knome> #action knome to set up the umbrella blueprint for CC
<meetingology> ACTION: knome to set up the umbrella blueprint for CC
<bluesabre> flocculant: planning to get the core patches refreshed this week so we can get it done
<flocculant> #action someone to deal with dev.x.o for CC
<meetingology> ACTION: someone to deal with dev.x.o for CC
<knome> that'll be me...
<flocculant> bluesabre: ok
<bluesabre> lots of folks poking the branches right now for the i386 stuff, so good timing
<knome> flocculant, want to redo with knome
<knome> so i don't forget...
<flocculant> bluesabre Unit193 re the minimal thing - I understand now what you mean
<flocculant> #undo
<meetingology> Removing item from minutes: ACTION
<flocculant> #action knome to deal with dev.x.o for CC
<meetingology> ACTION: knome to deal with dev.x.o for CC
<knome> flocculant, thanks
<flocculant> np
<ochosi> Unit193: we can compile it directly after the meeting
<bluesabre> ochosi, Unit193, we may do some additional dev chat after the mtg as well
<Unit193> OK.
<ochosi> https://pad.ubuntu.com/NMSlV657ha
<Unit193> #topic Schedule Next Meeting
<Unit193> slickymaster!
<Unit193> #endmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting ended Tue May 15 21:31:38 2018 UTC.  
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/xubuntu-devel/2018/xubuntu-devel.2018-05-15-20.08.moin.txt
<flocculant> hah - good luck scheduling that one :p
<flocculant> thanks Unit193 :)
<Unit193> flocculant: Thanks for starting it.
<flocculant> np :)
<flocculant> always with the 90 minute first meeting on a cycle
<bluesabre> Thanks everybody for stopping by and adding to the conversation
<knome> thanks flocculant, Unit193 
<Unit193> Sorry for being unacceptably late. :3
<flocculant> Unit193: no worries
<flocculant> anyway - up the wooden hill for me 
<Unit193> ochosi: You still want that glade support don't you, from libxfce4ui?
<flocculant> night all
<flocculant> will look at that pad in the morning if I remember
<ochosi> Unit193: yup, that'd be nice
<Unit193> Bah.
<albinard> If you build it, I will test. :-)
<bluesabre> nighty flocculant 
<knome> https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/xubuntu-c-roadmap
<knome> !team | the umbrella blueprint has been set up in LP as "xubuntu-c-roadmap"
<ubottu> the umbrella blueprint has been set up in LP as "xubuntu-c-roadmap": akxwi-dave, bluesabre, dkessel, flocculant, jjfrv8, knome, krytarik, ochosi, pleia2, slickymaster and Unit193
<knome> flocculant, akxwi-dave: qa is linked already...
<Unit193> I don't suppose we can hold off thunar for a little?
<bluesabre> thanks knome 
<knome> np
<knome> dev. next
<bluesabre> knome: added dev
<knome> great
<bluesabre> Unit193: not had significant issues from thunar, but I think 1.8 is planned to be released soon
<bluesabre> could probably go forward from that milestone
<sm0rux> A big "thank you" to all of you making Xubuntu possible!
<knome> dev.xubuntu.org should be set
<knome> meaning stuff should appear soonish there
<knome> when i run the cron job manually..
<knome> at least theoretically...
<knome> ;)
<knome> there we go
<Unit193> ochosi: Do you know what we're even shipping? ;)
<ochosi> Unit193: i want screenshooter 1.9.x
<ochosi> not 1.8.x
<Unit193> !info xfce4-screenshooter bionic
<ubottu> xfce4-screenshooter (source: xfce4-screenshooter): screenshots utility for Xfce. In component universe, is optional. Version 1.8.2-2 (bionic), package size 136 kB, installed size 907 kB
<ochosi> we're still shipping 1.8 as far as i could see
<Unit193> !info xfce4-screenshooter cosmic
<ubottu> xfce4-screenshooter (source: xfce4-screenshooter): screenshots utility for Xfce. In component universe, is optional. Version 1.9.2-1 (cosmic), package size 126 kB, installed size 841 kB
<ochosi> oh
<ochosi> right, hadnt looked into cosmic yet
<ochosi> :)
<knome> ochosi, i'm too kind; https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/xubuntu-c-artwork is set up for you
<Unit193> ochosi: I sync'd it earlier.  I'm quick, ya know? ;)
<ochosi> hehe
<knome> bluesabre, want to set up -bugs yourself?
<bluesabre> knome: honestly, I don't know how to set it up to automatically grab reports from the tracker
<bluesabre> or does it do that?
<knome> it does, just register a regular blueprint and attach bugs to it
<bluesabre> ah, thought that was automatica
<knome> hm? :)
<knome> pleia2, https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/xubuntu-c-community
<bluesabre> putting together now
<knome> cheerio
<knome> slickymaster, https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/xubuntu-c-documentation
<ochosi> bluesabre, Unit193: i'm done with the list in the pad
<ochosi> at least from my pov
<knome> ok, the umbrella should now have a link to all sub-BP's
<knome> -marketing i didn't set up because that can be under -community unless it explodes (note pleia2)
<bluesabre> thanks knome
<knome> np
<bluesabre> ochosi: anything you'd like to add to https://wiki.xubuntu.org/devel/xubuntu-18.10 before I move it to the bp?
<knome> i ran the cron job manually again, "everything" should now be visible in the tracker
<bluesabre> :)
<Unit193> ochosi: https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/libxfce4util/4.13.1-1
<ochosi> bluesabre: we could add the 4.13 topic, at least as a single item to remember it
<Unit193> bluesabre: Can you put your goals somewhere?  I want to try and keep track, so I can divert any packaging, etc.
<bluesabre> Unit193: like these? https://pad.ubuntu.com/xubuntu-1810-dev
<Unit193> Could be.
<Unit193> That's a lot of packages to upload if I touch xfconf. :3
<Unit193> desktopnova libxfce4ui parole ristretto thunar thunar-volman vala-panel-appmenu xfce4-appfinder xfce4-clipman-plugin xfce4-indicator-plugin xfce4-notes-plugin xfce4-notifyd xfce4-panel xfce4-places-plugin xfce4-power-manager xfce4-pulseaudio-plugin xfce4-session xfce4-settings xfce4-statusnotifier-plugin xfce4-volumed xfce4-xkb-plugin xfconf xfdashboard xfdesktop4 xfwm4
<bluesabre> shew
<Unit193> We control dropbox in Debian, perhaps we should get that patch in and upload to exp?
<bluesabre> yeah, sounds good to me
<bluesabre> Unit193, ochosi, I think that will largely do it for my brain dump
<bluesabre> Again, feel free to add or adjust the list https://pad.ubuntu.com/xubuntu-1810-dev :)
<bluesabre> time to step away for a bit
<ochosi> Unit193: i thought you wanted some more uploads..? :]
<Unit193> ochosi: Why is xfconf a 'maybe', btw?
<ochosi> because i haven't tested it with some components that rely on array settings
<ochosi> e.g. xfdesktop
<Unit193> https://launchpad.net/~xubuntu-dev/+archive/ubuntu/experimental/+packages floc has.
<ochosi> oh cool
<ochosi> feel free to move it up then
<Unit193> Debian #853371 would make things sliiightly harder.
<ubottu> Debian bug 853371 in src:desktopnova "desktopnova FTBFS: dbus-server-bindings.h: No such file or directory" [Serious,Open] http://bugs.debian.org/853371
<Unit193> Erm, that's new xfdesktop with new xfconf, right...
<Unit193> http://paste.openstack.org/show/721053 hmmm....
#xubuntu-devel 2018-05-16
<Unit193> Wait is the blue man gone?
<flocculant> bluesabre: nope - not automatic - I've been patiently adding them ;)
<flocculant> ali1234: don't know if you're aware yet - but vlc in b-proposed and sru bug 1771259
<ubottu> bug 1771259 in vlc (Ubuntu Bionic) "[SRU] Update to bugfix release 3.0.2 in Bionic" [Medium,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1771259
<ali1234> doesn't seem related to any of the bugs i saw, but thanks
<ali1234> i don't actually use vlc anyway, i find mpv to be much much better...
<flocculant> I don't use it either :)
<flocculant> knome: re dokuwiki - any way you know of to have contents of a wiki page like https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Grub2/Installing ?
<flocculant> currently only method I can see is to have a landing page to act as contents - then seperate pages for each 'thing'
<knome> flocculant, you mean you'd like to show a ToC created from page headings?
<flocculant> yea
<knome> that should be possible, either directly or via plugin
<flocculant> aah - getting sensible search results from toc \o/
 * flocculant digs about a bit more 
<knome> Minimum amount of headlines that determines whether the TOC is built --> 3
 * flocculant quickly checks that
<knome> https://wiki.xubuntu.org/qa/isotesting should have that i think
<knome> maybe i edited the template not to print the toc? ;)
<flocculant> fine tuning doesn't for sure
<knome> it's so long that i don't remember
<flocculant> if you could have a look - that would be awesome
<knome> i can look at it later, so if you need a page that does that, feel free to create it
<knome> and the toc will appear automatically later...
<knome> or at least after a page update :P
<knome> i think that's how dokuwiki works
<flocculant> mmk
<flocculant> well the pages that need it - have the headings - so when you've looked can you let me know :)
<knome> yep, and when i look i'll very likely have to do my own testing as well
<flocculant> :)
<flocculant> tbh headings in dokuwiki don't make much sense to me :D
<knome> you mean the markup?
<flocculant> no - more what they actually look like 
<knome> ah
<knome> don't they look a bit like the headings on the main website? :P
<knome> or, a better example, like the docs
<flocculant> I guess - that doesn't always make much sense to me either
<knome> then i guess we should look at that
<akxwi-dave> looking good though
<flocculant> dokuwiki manual makes no mention of headings - so I guess they're not sure either :D
<knome> :)
<Unit193> xfce4-notifyd 0.4.2-1 uploaded by Yves-Alexis Perez (corsac)
<knome> mhm.
#xubuntu-devel 2018-05-17
<Unit193> xfce4-terminal 0.8.7.4-1 uploaded by Yves-Alexis Perez (corsac)
<flocculant> meeting logs are up
<flocculant> blog post re the new tester bits at https://xubuntu.org/?p=4497&preview=true
<flocculant> bluesabre especially ^^
#xubuntu-devel 2018-05-18
-SwissBot:#xubuntu-devel- ::xfce4-announce:: ANNOUNCE: xfce4-cpufreq-plugin 1.2.0 released @ http://xfce.10915.n7.nabble.com/ANNOUNCE-xfce4-cpufreq-plugin-1-2-0-released-tp51048.html (by AndrÃ© Miranda)
<TheMaster> leigh: Howdy.
<leigh> 'Morning
<flocculant> hi leigh TheMaster 
<TheMaster> Heya.
<leigh> Hi
<leigh> flocculant
<leigh> I have a nice clean partition ready for testing but my usb 2.0 port broke (its on all OS' and I've checked all BIOS settings). I always have probs installing from the usb 3.0 ports.
<leigh> there are sometimes errors about squash something.
<leigh> Is this a common prob?
<flocculant> I've seen it 
<flocculant> though generally in vm's and more often than not in 32 bit
<leigh> But normally USB 3.0 isnt a problem for most people I guess? I will have to sort this before I can test or I dont know if its my USB problem or with the install
<flocculant> might be usb - not sure
<leigh> oh, well, I will have to try to sort it as at the moment I cant install anything
<flocculant> I assume this is any iso on a usb? 
<leigh> yup, well all the ones I have tried recently.
<flocculant> k
<leigh> Its a problem I have always had - but before I had the 2.0 port to use
<flocculant> right - hang on 
<flocculant> couple of things to try at https://askubuntu.com/questions/811299/squashfs-errors-post-install
<flocculant> to edit the live usb grub entry - hit a key when you get to the kbd/man symbol - when you see the menu, press F6
<flocculant> that brings up a smaller menu - esc
<flocculant> you will now see the grub line 
<flocculant> go to the end of it - then you can add things
<flocculant> would try and help more - but getting sorted for work
<leigh> thanks, that will get me going - me too. Have a good day
<flocculant> you too -= Friday is always good - half day \o.
<flocculant> \o/
<TheMaster> Desktopnova can have a no-change rebuild now.
<willem> hi all. when starting gigolo from terminal I get some messages (gigolo deprecated and x-terminal limited support; https://i.imgur.com/4TSMe3b.png); would this be something I need to report as bugs? 
<flocculant> odd one - not sure, I don't see the deprecaton message here - not sure where the emulator message is coming from either
<willem> well, I start wondering if there is something wrong with my install: according to apport I upgraded to cosmic on 2018-03-29 (49 days ago); but I did the upgrade only yesterday
<flocculant> I suspect that's the original install date of bionic - which you've upgraded to cosmic
<willem> Well, it literally says that it is the upgrade date to cosmic: https://i.imgur.com/ryZ52hp.png 
<flocculant> mmm
<flocculant> mine says no upgrade log 
<flocculant> did you upgrade to bionic about that time?
<flocculant> then that would make sense - you haven't actually 'upgraded' to cosmic - you forced it to use cosmic apt info
<flocculant> ^^ after thinking about it more :)
<willem> hmmm
<willem> you may be correct but I can't say for sure when I did the bionic upgrade. So: I'll assume you are right. - nothing to worry about then...
<flocculant> yea - I'd not worry about that 
<willem> won't now -all's good; still: must be confusing to people who get to read those automatic reports if the information in there is not entirely reliable?
<flocculant> not sure if it was me I'd take too much notice - I've seen ones where the original install date was a long time ago - the bits are the package version etc
<Unit193> slickymaster: Can you fix the contributor docs?  PT translations don't validate.
<krytarik> Oh right, that one I conveniently ignored since below threshold. >_>
<krytarik> That would be translation strings 84, 104, and 109
<krytarik> Oh, and it's actually pt_BR
<krytarik> Configured the translation settings for Cosmic at that now.
#xubuntu-devel 2018-05-19
-SwissBot:#xubuntu-devel- ::xubuntu-docs:: [cosmic] r653 Launchpad automatic translations update. (by Launchpad Translations on behalf of xubuntu-doc)
<bluesabre> Populated the dev blueprint, https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/xubuntu-c-development
#xubuntu-devel 2018-05-20
<tracker3> I accidentally copied a different rc.local  file to my /etc folder. Is that bad?
<tracker3> Does Xubunu use an rc.local
<ali1234> no
<flocculant> flying visit to say if I've not heard anything re the new tester stuff by Tuesday - just going to change the webpage and get that all done
<willem> I don't have a problem with that, really ;-)
<flocculant> heh
<ochosi> bluesabre: thanks for filling in hr bp, we have an ambitious cycle ahead
<bluesabre> ochosi: shouldn't be terribly hard to knock much of that out in a week or so
<willem> hi all, I'm trying to report an issue with "appearance", but I am not certain of the right package name; I believe it is xfce4-appearance-settings, but if I run ubuntu-bug with that, the dialogue tells me that xfce4-appearance-settings is not installed. Any suggestions?
<willem> (I can however run xfce4-appearance-settings from cli without problems.)
<krytarik> willem: Just "xfce4-settings"
<willem> krytarik, thanks.
#xubuntu-devel 2019-05-14
<Unit193> certbot went missing from the server it seems, was marked 'rc'.
#xubuntu-devel 2019-05-15
<pleia2> https://hackaday.com/2019/05/15/comprinter-hides-a-laptop-inside-a-printer/
<Unit193> Well that's an interesting place to find Xubuntu.
<pleia2> indeed :)
<Unit193> pleia2: Oh fyi, I re-installed certbot and the apache plugin on the Xubuntu dev server.
<pleia2> was it not working? I thought I tested that the other day
<Unit193> It was removed, only config files left.
<pleia2> ah, must have happened during the 18.04 upgrade
<pleia2> looks like I didn't test certbot after doing that
<pleia2> thanks :)
<Unit193> OK good, I didn't miss anything then.  \o/
<pleia2> and good, the cron job is there, so it should do its thing
<Unit193> Heh, that's what I checked after re-installation.  Someone in #xubuntu also reported that docs for 19.xx were missing.
<Unit193> (As linked from docs.xubuntu.org)
<pleia2> hm, I thought knome added them
#xubuntu-devel 2019-05-16
-SwissBot:#xubuntu-devel- ::xfce4-announce:: ANNOUNCE: libxfce4util 4.13.3 released @ http://xfce.10915.n7.nabble.com/ANNOUNCE-libxfce4util-4-13-3-released-tp53532.html (by Romain Bouvier)
#xubuntu-devel 2019-05-17
-SwissBot:#xubuntu-devel- ::xfce4-announce:: ANNOUNCE: xfce4-panel 4.13.5 released @ http://xfce.10915.n7.nabble.com/ANNOUNCE-xfce4-panel-4-13-5-released-tp53550.html (by Simon Steinbeiss)
-SwissBot:#xubuntu-devel- ::xfce4-announce:: ANNOUNCE: xfce4-power-manager 1.6.2 released @ http://xfce.10915.n7.nabble.com/ANNOUNCE-xfce4-power-manager-1-6-2-released-tp53552.html (by Simon Steinbeiss)
-SwissBot:#xubuntu-devel- ::xfce4-announce:: ANNOUNCE: libxfce4ui 4.13.5 released @ http://xfce.10915.n7.nabble.com/ANNOUNCE-libxfce4ui-4-13-5-released-tp53561.html (by Romain Bouvier)
-SwissBot:#xubuntu-devel- ::xfce4-announce:: ANNOUNCE: xfce4-appfinder 4.13.3 released @ http://xfce.10915.n7.nabble.com/ANNOUNCE-xfce4-appfinder-4-13-3-released-tp53563.html (by Andre Miranda)
-SwissBot:#xubuntu-devel- ::xfce4-announce:: ANNOUNCE: xfdesktop 4.13.4 released @ http://xfce.10915.n7.nabble.com/ANNOUNCE-xfdesktop-4-13-4-released-tp53565.html (by Andre Miranda)
-SwissBot:#xubuntu-devel- ::xfce4-announce:: ANNOUNCE: thunar-volman 0.9.2 released @ http://xfce.10915.n7.nabble.com/ANNOUNCE-thunar-volman-0-9-2-released-tp53568.html (by Andre Miranda)
<Guest73> hey 
<Guest73> is there any one here
-SwissBot:#xubuntu-devel- ::xfce4-announce:: ANNOUNCE: tumbler 0.2.4 released @ http://xfce.10915.n7.nabble.com/ANNOUNCE-tumbler-0-2-4-released-tp53569.html (by Andre Miranda)
-SwissBot:#xubuntu-devel- ::xfce4-announce:: ANNOUNCE: thunar 1.8.5 released @ http://xfce.10915.n7.nabble.com/ANNOUNCE-thunar-1-8-5-released-tp53577.html (by Alexander Schwinn-2)
-SwissBot:#xubuntu-devel- ::xfce4-announce:: ANNOUNCE: xfce4-settings 4.13.6 released @ http://xfce.10915.n7.nabble.com/ANNOUNCE-xfce4-settings-4-13-6-released-tp53578.html (by Simon Steinbeiss)
-SwissBot:#xubuntu-devel- ::xfce4-announce:: ANNOUNCE: thunar 1.6.17 released @ http://xfce.10915.n7.nabble.com/ANNOUNCE-thunar-1-6-17-released-tp53580.html (by Alexander Schwinn-2)
#xubuntu-devel 2019-05-18
-SwissBot:#xubuntu-devel- ::xfce4-announce:: ANNOUNCE: xfconf 4.13.7 released @ http://xfce.10915.n7.nabble.com/ANNOUNCE-xfconf-4-13-7-released-tp53583.html (by Sean Davis-6)
<bluesabre> Is this an old version of the settings manager? https://launchpad.net/xfce-mcs-plugins
<Unit193> mcs predates xfconf, iirc.
<Unit193> It seems I do not, OK.
<bluesabre> :)
<bluesabre> I've started reaching out to folks that are set as the maintainer for various Xfce projects in LP... trying to get everything under xubuntu-dev
<bluesabre> Ran into LP's max direct contact limit XD
-SwissBot:#xubuntu-devel- ::xfce4-announce:: ANNOUNCE: xfwm4 4.13.2 released @ http://xfce.10915.n7.nabble.com/ANNOUNCE-xfwm4-4-13-2-released-tp53593.html (by Olivier Fourdan)
-SwissBot:#xubuntu-devel- ::xfce4-announce:: ANNOUNCE: thunar 1.8.6 released @ http://xfce.10915.n7.nabble.com/ANNOUNCE-thunar-1-8-6-released-tp53611.html (by Andre Miranda)
-SwissBot:#xubuntu-devel- ::xfce4-announce:: ANNOUNCE: xfce4-session 4.13.2 released @ http://xfce.10915.n7.nabble.com/ANNOUNCE-xfce4-session-4-13-2-released-tp53614.html (by Simon Steinbeiss)
#xubuntu-devel 2019-05-19
<brainwash> bluesabre: can you update xubuntu's xfce4-session.xml please? https://git.xfce.org/xfce/xfce4-session/diff/settings/xfce4-session.xml?id=0a915310582803296fbfb075e1ea1c045b20bfcc
<brainwash> that is needed for 4.13.2
<bluesabre> brainwash: https://git.launchpad.net/xubuntu-default-settings/commit/?id=fd1430d8139ddb80cc2c323d284c9506042dfeab
<bluesabre> I'll push an updated x-d-s tonight
<bluesabre> (and -session if Unit193 continues to leave it for me :))
-SwissBot:#xubuntu-devel- ::xubuntu-default-settings:: Set xfce4-session client priority from upstream @ http://git.launchpad.net/xubuntu-default-settings/commit/?id=fd1430d8139ddb80cc2c323d284c9506042dfeab (by Sean Davis)
<brainwash> there is a problem with xyz when using -session 4.13
<brainwash> https://bugzilla.xfce.org/show_bug.cgi?id=15414
<ubottu> bugzilla.xfce.org bug 15414 in General "[Regression] Wrong locale set with lightdm" [Normal,New]
<brainwash> the -session code did not change
<brainwash> will try with 4.12 now
<brainwash> it's not affected
<brainwash> bluesabre, Unit193: xubuntu applies xubuntu_ignore-gdm-lang.patch to xfce4-session
<brainwash>     - xubuntu_ignore-gdm-lang.patch: do not set $LANG to $GDM_LANG, there's
<brainwash>       already an xsession script to do that, and $GDM_LANG might not contain
<brainwash>       a valid locale code
<brainwash> from 2011
<Unit193> brainwash: Yes I'm aware.  I poked ochosi about it once and he said it wasn't needed upstream.  I was going to leave it in Xubuntu because I doubted it did any harm, considering no bug reports.
<Unit193> (Then again, thought nothing would be setting GDM_* since gdm only works with gnome..)
<brainwash> something must be setting it.. lightdm? accountsservice?
<Unit193> https://codesearch.debian.net/search?q=GDM_LANG+package%3A%5CQlightdm%5CE
<Unit193> https://codesearch.debian.net/search?q=GDM_LANG+package%3A%5CQlive-config%5CE huh.
<brainwash> lightdm sets GDMSESSION also
<Unit193> Granted, codesearch searches Debian, of course, and there's some differences (patches, versions), but still handy.  Our LightDM is newer.
<brainwash> bug 1502921
<ubottu> bug 1502921 in accountsservice (Ubuntu) "LightDM sets wrong environment variables" [High,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1502921
<brainwash> bluesabre: another thing which I only just noticed: the session xml has still the splash engine property
<brainwash> not needed anymore after the removal of the splash engine
<ochosi> brainwash: not sure i get it but it feels more like a lightdm issue than a session issue
<ochosi> Unit193: do you plan on backporting the packages for 4.14pre1 to here? https://launchpad.net/~xubuntu-dev/+archive/ubuntu/experimental
<Unit193> Possibly?
<ochosi> i personally also wouldn't mind a specific PPA
<ochosi> but yeah, that could be done easily by copying over the packages later
<Unit193> I don't think we need another, I'm already confused. :)
<ochosi> hehe
<ochosi> we can deflate them if it helps
<ochosi> i really didn't want to confuse anyone
<Unit193> Because experimental is for staging stuff, basically, whereas 'staging' is for backports.  But with all of Xfce 4.13 in disco and pushing all new releases to Eoan, functionally experimental == staging. :D
<Unit193> xfdesktop4, xfce4-settings, and xfwm4 shortly will be up now too.
<ochosi> awesome
<ochosi> so apart from session we'd have everything?
<Unit193> I skipped xfconf too.
<ochosi> oh
<ochosi> right
<ochosi> did we not have that one anywhere before?
<Unit193> W: xfwm4: icon-size-and-directory-name-mismatch usr/share/icons/hicolor/22x22/actions/xfce-wm-menu.png 16x16  Huh.
<Unit193> I had it in a personal arcive, I think that's it.
<Unit193> I mean we have xfconf 4.13, just not the latest two releases.  I rather want the gsettingsd backend, but the migration script doesn't work it seems, sooo...
<ochosi> yeah, i'd hold back on that one for a bit
<ochosi> we can try to fix that at some point
<ochosi> at least if we find no showstoppers in 4.14pre1 that consume all time until pre2
<brainwash> ochosi: does that mean that the xubuntu patch should be dropped?
<ochosi> brainwash: err, wait, are we dynmically switching channels or has the topic changed too? :D
<brainwash> this is about the GDM_LANG thing
<ochosi> ah, ok
<ochosi> sorry, too many parallel threads
<Unit193> brainwash: Problem exibits without patch, the patch works around it.  I say we keep.
<brainwash> right
<ochosi> in xubuntu yes
<ochosi> i'd have to review the patch again for upstream
<ochosi> or understand the problem again :)
<brainwash> something needs to fixed
<brainwash> does not matter what :)
<ochosi> currently i need to get the release posting out
<brainwash> sure
#xubuntu-devel 2020-05-11
<jphilips> Dedoimedo's review is out for 20.04 - https://www.dedoimedo.com/computers/xubuntu-focal.html
-SwissBot:#xubuntu-devel- Reminder: Next meeting chair is Unit193
<jphilips> can anyone familiar with glade and gtkassistant help with this https://github.com/blueman-project/blueman/issues/1188
#xubuntu-devel 2020-05-13
<jphilips> Unit193, brainwash: either of you know how to request OPs permission in a channel
<Unit193> If you already have flags in the channel, /msg ChanServ op #channelname
<jphilips> no there doesnt seem to be any flags in the channel. the first time i joined the empty channel, it gave me the privileges, but after exiting and coming back in with others also having joined, i no longer have it
<ali1234> found a bug on the live cd
<ali1234> well, the USB live image
<ali1234> exactly two hours after system power on the USB drive stops working, so / stops working and everything crashes
<ali1234> it looks like this https://paste.ubuntu.com/p/V4YxjBkmWr/
#xubuntu-devel 2020-05-14
<Unit193> I'm kind of thinking "screw it" and backporting my xfconf to the backports PPA, but since it's not in groovy that's a bit... :3
<Unit193> Dashboard is looking pretty good right now, actually.
<Unit193> bluesabre: Ah crap, I got an email about stuff.  Can I give you a copy?
<bluesabre> Unit193: sure?
<jphilips> Unit193: if i remember correctly, you are a debian maintainer, right.
<jphilips> these guys are looking for assistance to get their dock into debian https://github.com/M7S/dockbarx/issues/92
<jphilips> anyone familiar with xdmcp, as a twitter user is saying its not working in 20.04
<jphilips> https://twitter.com/hgdrn/status/1260586919077072896
<ali1234> xdmcp is really really niche - it's the situation where the whole session runs on a remote machine, including the display/login manager
<ali1234>  i'm surprised it even still worked in 16.04 to be honest
<jphilips> ali1234: interesting technology, though seems similar to RDP, or am i mistaken
<ali1234> i mean, its superficially similar
<ali1234> it leverages remote X11, but typically when you use that your window manager is local and just one client is remote
<ali1234> under Xdmcp the Xserver itself broadcasts a request for remote login managers and then *everything* runs remotely from the login window up through the session and window manager
<ali1234> obviously there are a *lot* of things that can go wrong there
<ali1234> especially wrt dbus because that has no remote capability, so if it runs in the wrong place, you can't connect - that seems to be the problem with xscreensaver
<ali1234> but Xdmcp is tech from 20+ years ago, before dbus existed
<ali1234> long before
<ali1234> these days many components are relying on non-X services because they run under wayland too, and those components aren't network capable. pulseaudio being another example
<jphilips> seems like something with the new screensaver is causing some of the issues
<jphilips> https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EX6Aju7XYAU3FEp?format=jpg&name=medium
<ali1234> not that audio ever worked with xdmcp
<jphilips> also power manager as well
<ali1234> in order for anyone to even begin to investigate this we're going to need a comprehensive guide on how to configure everything for Xdmcp, because i doubt any current developers know how to do it
<ali1234> i certainly don't, i haven't done it for over 15 years at least
<jphilips> what would you recommend i tell the person to upgrade to rather than use xdmcp
<ali1234> i wouldn't, there is nothing that can replace it
<ali1234> if you actually need it then you need it
<ali1234> there is nothing more annoying than someone who doesn't understand the use-case recommending something completely unsuitable
<jphilips> yep like people using excel as a database :D
<ali1234> it's not like that at all....
<jphilips> oh sorry, read your message wrong
<ali1234> this person probably knows all the alternatives if they are experienced enough to even know what xdmcp is, so suggestions aren't going to help
<jphilips> well i suggested the person join the IRC, so hopefully he can give his use-case
<ali1234> btw, bugs found in ubuntu should always go to launchpad in the first instance
<ali1234> if they are found to be upstream bugs then there are mechanisms to re-file there and keep the launchpad bug synced
<ali1234> this is also important at the other end when it gets fixed, so the fix can be pulled into ubuntu
<jphilips> yes i'm aware of that, as i've had a number of bugs happen in that case
<jphilips> i normally file all my bugs upstream as they are xfce bugs more than xubuntu bugs
<ali1234> it's fine to open a bug on launchpad and then immediately open the same bug upstream and link them
<ali1234> preferred, even
<jphilips> excuse my ignorance, but what would be the benefit of that
<ali1234> ubuntu maintainers get notified automatically when the upstream bug gets fixed
<ali1234> it isn't always a given that it is the same people
<ali1234> it gets more eyes on the bug, and ensures it shows up whichever place someone searches
<ali1234> suppose same bug affects ubuntu and fedora. fedora user searches their tracker and finds a bug linked to the upstream bug, and then on that bug they find a link to the ubuntu report. this way everyone has all the facts
<ali1234> you should not worry much about making duplicate reports either
<ali1234> consider that if you search and dont fond the bug, and then you make a dupe, you will phrase it in a different way. so the next person who searches may not find the original, but they may find your duplicate, which hopefully will have been marked as such
<ali1234> consider that a bug report is not just a request to fix something. it's more like asking "does anyone else have this same problem?"
<jphilips> interesting concept. i would presume then that all distro bug trackers follow the same recommended method
<ali1234> i have no idea
<ali1234> DBTS seems to be designed to be as difficult to use as possible, and fedora just mass closes everything every 6 months
<ali1234> i have no experience with any of the others
<jphilips> anyone here have OP status in #xubuntu, as we wanted to test a one-way telegram to irc bridge bot in preparation for it going live
<Unit193> jphilips: http://bugs.debian.org/934659
<ubottu> Debian bug 934659 in wnpp "RFP: dockbarx -- Lightweight taskbar/panel replacement" [Wishlist,Open]
<jphilips> Unit193: thanks. so someone was requesting the same from august 2019. what is the way forward with it?
<Unit193> Someone has to actually do it.
<Unit193> Package it, upload it to NEW, of course finding a sponsor if needed.  All for something that hasn't seen a release since Feb '18? :P
<jphilips> no release, but they've had patches come in during 2018 up to dec 2018
<jphilips> its definitely a popular dock, though plank gets more attention as its in debian
<Unit193> Also if it really is Python 2, that's a hard no for anyone.  Debian is working to remove Python 2 (as is Ubuntu)
<jphilips> okay
<Unit193> FWIW, with regards to 'rdp like thing', x2go is likely functioanlly more along those lines.
<jphilips> definitely need to try x2go as wimpy was always mentioning how great it was on mate
<Unit193> As I noted before, drop a file in /usr/local/bin/ with the right stuff and it'll look like Xubuntu, not default Xfce. :P
<hgdrn> Good evening. Twitter brought me here, I'm the guy that ranted about the crappy XDMCP performance of my fresh Xubuntu 20.04 installation.
<hgdrn> I've read the discussion of today in the channel logs, so I just want to add some words of how and why I use XDMCP.
<hgdrn> First of all: I'm not a (Linux) developer, I'm just a Linux user. I use Win7 in the office next to a Xubuntu laptop (currently using 18.04). Two monitors are connected to the Windows PC.
<hgdrn> The left monitor is used for all the Windows stuff. The right monitor shows a full screen XDMCP session of my Xubuntu laptop. Using this config I can use the best of two worlds with one keyboard/mouse just by switching the windows.
<hgdrn> Why XDMCP: because everything works and looks nice (OK, no sound, but I don't need audio). The keyboard mapping works (German keyboard here). The fonts look perfect. It really looks the same as I use the laptop itself.
<hgdrn> XDMCP runs much much better than VNC, RDP or x2go. It's faster, has less latency, the keyboard mappings work. I can watch YouTube videos in FullHD in an XDMCP session without problems.
<hgdrn> I tried VNC, I tried RDP: both are a "pain in the ass" in comparison to XDMCP. I tried x2go long a go, it was OK, but not more, XDMCP is much better for me. 
<hgdrn> I have been using XDMCP since 1998 or before. I currently use VcXsrv (https://sourceforge.net/projects/vcxsrv/), and I use its "XDMCP one window" mode. MobaXTerm is a nice solution, too. There has been XWin32 or Exceed, too.
<hgdrn> Regarding the problems of 20.04: I guess  (sorry if I'm completly wrong) that there is some easy logic missing in theXubuntu code. The programs should check somehow if they are running on the local XServer or somewhere else.
<Unit193> I have never used XDMCP, that being said I wonder what would happen if you selected 'Xfce' in the session menu rather than 'Xubuntu' (note, this could trash your Xfce settings)
<hgdrn> I use an old Lenovo Thinkpad T410s for testing purposes. I used 18.04 with Plasma, Cinamon and Xfce. All of them worked well. Then I upgraded to 20.04 but the result was not good (Login took 2 minutes). So I made a clean install of Xubuntu 20.04 and found these problems when trying to access the Thinkpad via XDMCP.
<hgdrn> One had to test it systematically, but I guess I don't have the time anymore to do that. So, before I write too much here: Where would be the right place to address problems? Please remember that I have never been in this Linux development world, and it is not so easy for me to know where to post bugs.
<hgdrn> Good night from Germany. Keep on hacking, you are doing a good job and I love Xubuntu and XFCE. If XDMCP will die (at least with Wayland I guess), I'll find another way. If I can help I will try to do it. Bye.
#xubuntu-devel 2020-05-15
<Unit193> bluesabre: Sent via PM because it was an email directly to me (read: privacy reasons)
<ali1234> what does it mean when i see "sync with debian unstable. remaining changes:" in a changelog?
<ali1234> what are remaining changes?
<Unit193> https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/xfce4-session/4.12.1-3ubuntu1 like this, they're supposed to be listed below.
<ali1234> yes but what are remaining changes?
<ali1234> in what sense are they remaining? where can i find them?
<ali1234> what is the meaning of + and -?
<Unit193> The listed changes were done before, they're being merged into the Debian package.
<Unit193> Basically, indenting levels.  '*' is always firstlevel, "-" tends to be second, '+' tends to be third.
<ali1234> so the remaining changes should all be things found in patches?
<Unit193> Or other files under debian/, eg I could change d/rules to drop something or other.  We used that in parole to strip a flag, until I put that in Debian's d/rules.
<ali1234> i'm confused about the openssl package and this changelog https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/openssl/1.1.1f-1ubuntu1
<ali1234> it says among other things: Revert "Enable system default config to enforce TLS1.2 as a minimum" & "Increase default security level from 1 to 2".
<ali1234> and also "Set OPENSSL_TLS_SECURITY_LEVEL=2 as compiled-in minimum security level. Change meaning of SECURITY_LEVEL=2 to prohibit TLS versions below 1.2 and update documentation. Previous default of 1, can be set by calling SSL_CTX_set_security_level(), SSL_set_security_level() or using ':@SECLEVEL=1' CipherString value in openssl.cfg."
<Unit193> Debian upped the minimum, Ubuntu doesn't want to up that, so they revert that change.
<ali1234> now firstly it seems like these two changes cancel each other out
<ali1234> revert the change to default seclevel=2 and then change the default seclevel to 2
<ali1234> secondly i can't see any evidence that either of these things are actually done in the package
<ali1234> and thirdly openssl on 20.04 always behaves as if seclevel=2
<ali1234> and i find this really confusing
<ali1234> i will go and bug xnox about this tomorrow :)
<Unit193> \o/
<ali1234> ah i see the problem
<hgdrn> Good morning from Germany. For those of you who don't know XDMCP and want to play around with it, here a few sentences how to set up a VirtualBox and enable XDMCP.
<Unit193> FWIW, I do not now specifically where you should file said bug nor where to send for the best support.  #ubuntu is a support channel, but I can't imagine they'd know the ins and outs of XDMCP.  I'd question if a forum post of askubuntu might help.
<hgdrn> Download xubuntu-20.04-desktop-amd64.iso, create a new VM with Virtualbox, mount the ISO, boot VM and install Xubuntu. Boot Xubuntu, configure the network (I use a static ipv4 and bridged networking for the VM). Log in as the created user. Do an initial "sudo apt update && sudo apt -y upgrade". Install OpenSSH and Xnest (sudo apt install
<hgdrn> openssh-server xnest). Add a second user ("sudo adduser foobar"). Enable XDMCP for lightdm:
<hgdrn> echo "[XDMCPServer]" > /etc/lightdm/lightdm.conf.d/xdmcp.conf
<hgdrn> echo "enabled=true" >> /etc/lightdm/lightdm.conf.d/xdmcp.conf
<hgdrn> Restart lightdm, login as initial user again. Open a terminal. Call "Xnest -geometry 1024x786 -query localhost :42". Login as second user: xiccd crahes. Instead of Xnest you might start an XDMCP session from a Windows machine with MobaXTerm or VcXsrv.
<Unit193> Meh, well Debian 878069 wasn't a whole lot of help.
<ubottu> Debian bug 878069 in lightdm "lightdm: xdmcp broken" [Important,Open] http://bugs.debian.org/878069
<hgdrn> That's all. I don't want to bother you more with this XDMCP stuff. But for those of you who are to young to know it this might help. ;-)  Over and out.
<Unit193> https://bugs.launchpad.net/lightdm/+bugs?field.searchtext=xdmcp hmm..
<hgdrn> Don't know if lightdm is broken in Debian 9, in fact Lightdm is working with XDMCP even with (X)Ubuntu 20.04. It's more the programs that do not, e.g. xiccd crahes with SIGSEV after logging in via XDMCP.
<Unit193> As ali1234 had mentioned before, something having to do with dbus sounds a bit complicated.
<hgdrn> Yes, but I don't know what that means. As I said yesterday I'm just a user and therefor I'm going to be silent now, because I don't to disturb you with this stuff longer. I'll try to find out which programs makes something I don't expect and will try to find the bugtracker. ;)
<hgdrn> FYI: I tried x2go again. It brings its own, internal VcXsrv for the Windows client, funny. In the current version it seems to be a slower (why, I don't know) but working replacement for my setup. Please concentrate on other things. This is really the last statement from my side. Bye. ;)
<jphilips> was watching a installation video in spanish, and there seemed like a number of issues with the slides
<jphilips> https://imgur.com/NGxw7d5.png
<jphilips> https://imgur.com/5OEvAFe.png
<jphilips> presume there is no means to make sure that text fit in a particular width on the slides
#xubuntu-devel 2020-05-16
<jphilips> do we need to do something with a config file or something so that neofetch shows the xubuntu logo rather than ubuntu
<jphilips> https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EYGotCSXkAASSsI?format=jpg&name=medium
<brainwash> jphilips: the OS is ubuntu
<jphilips> brainwash: was looking for the xubuntu logo to appear https://imgur.com/sWaLcF8.png
<jphilips> without the user having to use '--asci_distro xubuntu' for it to appear
<brainwash> so
<brainwash> shouldn't you contact the neofetch devs?
<brainwash> they can tell what is missing or can be done
<jphilips> yes i can do that if its something we couldn't rectify ourselves with a config file change
<brainwash> what config file change?
<brainwash> I assume that its devs can point us in the right direction or just fix this in their code
<brainwash> you just have to contact them
<jphilips> will do
<jphilips> brainwash: do you know where lsb_release pulls its data from?
<brainwash> there is a file in /etc, but the command could be doing more than just reading that file
<brainwash> I mean this one /etc/lsb-release
<jphilips> so neofetch is relying on this file /usr/lib/os-release
<brainwash> and that file does not mention xubuntu, right?
<jphilips> yep
<brainwash> the end :)
<jphilips> i wonder where ubiquity pulls from when it knows which flavor it is
<jphilips> not really, because Ubuntu rather than Xubuntu doesn't appear in the grub screen, which means its a bigger problem than just neofetch
<jphilips> https://imgur.com/Ew7U1ha.png
<brainwash> keep it simple I'd say
<brainwash> what should happen if you install xubuntu and kubuntu-desktop on top of it?
<brainwash> XKubuntu?
<bluesabre> A mess.
<jphilips> you would have installed Xubuntu and are running the KDE DE and WM during that session
<jphilips> i've filed the bug with them, so i guess we'll see what they say https://github.com/dylanaraps/neofetch/issues/1461
<jphilips> how do we fix the grub issue, or is that not a concern that it doesn't show the flavor's name?
<bluesabre> I remember there being some concern that a different grub entry would require a different secure boot signed thing
<bluesabre> But this was long long ago
<jphilips> neofetch close the issue saying that 'as there's no way to reliably detect Xubuntu (as it is Ubuntu)'. is this correct?
<bluesabre> Can check environment variables
<bluesabre> `DESKTOP_SESSION=xubuntu`
<bluesabre> That'd be the easiest way
<bluesabre> !team | I'm planning a meeting for early next week... Let me know if 2100 UTC on Tuesday would work for you, or if there's a better time/date.
<ubottu> I'm planning a meeting for early next week... Let me know if 2100 UTC on Tuesday would work for you, or if there's a better time/date.: akxwi-dave, bluesabre, knome, krytarik, ochosi, pleia2, slickymaster and Unit193
<bluesabre> Unit193: I removed akxwi-dave and slickymaster from the team due to inactivity. Can you update the factoid when you get a chance?
<jphilips> bluesabre: not a solid way, as other flavor use the desktop environment in that env variable
<bluesabre> Yeah, but I think that variable alone is what controls if you get Xubuntu or Ubuntu+Xfce
<bluesabre> Possibly `XDG_SESSION_DESKTOP=xubuntu`
<bluesabre> I need to check a live session... my local install is a bit messy right now :D
<jphilips> :D
<jphilips> well lubuntu has desktop_session=lubuntu, while xdg_session_desktop is blank
<jphilips> is this image on the system requirements page copyrighted, as i saw it on another distro's site https://xubuntu.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/aea1/hardware.png
<Unit193> jphilips: neofetch is right, the OS is Ubuntu.  And last I knew if one updated the grub menu EFI with secure boot stopped working (read: system doesn't boot.)  Besides it'd be wrong anyway.
<Unit193> bluesabre: Alrighty!
<jphilips> Unit193: so is Xubuntu not an OS, as we mention that it is on our website and documentation. Is Linux Mint not an OS because it uses the Ubuntu base, or is Ubuntu not an OS because it uses the Debian base.
 * Unit193 sighs.
<brainwash> it's a flavor
<jphilips> yes flavor being an officially sanctioned remix of ubuntu
<brainwash> remix?
<brainwash> it does not add anything new, everything is in the ubuntu repository
<jphilips> before you are an officially sanctioned flavor, you start of as a remix
<jphilips> start off* as a remix
<jphilips> presently there are remixes with cinnamon, deepin, unity and lumina
<brainwash> Fedora has an official Xfce spin, but it's still Fedora
<brainwash> or Manjaro Xfce
<jphilips> yes fedora calls them spins
<jphilips> manjaro has official ones (xfce, gnome, kde) and community ones
<jphilips> well i've suggested the neofetch person to pull the flavor name from env like bluesabre suggested, hopefully that solves the issue with the logo appearing, which is all that i care for :D
<jphilips> would be nice to get it in the grub screen as well, but definitely more challenging to do that it seems
<brainwash> and if you start the Xfce session on a Xubuntu system?
<Unit193> brainwash: Or if you install Xubuntu, then install KDE and kubuntu-default-settings?  Are you still booting into Xubuntu? :P
<brainwash> right
<brainwash> I wondered about that earlier too
<brainwash> maybe the choice of boot splash determines what you are running :)
<jphilips> your system would be xubuntu, but your DE would be KDE and WM would be KWin. these are all separately mentioned in neofetch
<Unit193> Also isn't the Grub boot menu hidden by default anyway?
<jphilips> not if you dual boot
<Unit193> Ah.
<Unit193> And I don't really agree with the last statement, and also wonder why 'neofetch' is the tell all here.  But whatever.
<jphilips> its highly used when people share screenshots of their desktop, so its good PR for us to get our logo there :D
<brainwash> ascii logo
<jphilips> yep
<jphilips> for those that didn't get a chance to give their input on the table of contents page of the documentation, please do when you get a chance https://docs.google.com/document/d/1KpmN_tCOHaDwQgNtqyyt6DqZ7M0xSMCNTadORcY_Whw/edit
<jphilips> Unit193: from one of your twitter admirers "Xubuntu has the best metapackage for Xfce for sure (maybe meta from Arch is the tiniest)... All other distros force us to grab some apps I don't need (Debian task forces entire Libreoffice suite and some bulky Gnome stuff). Xubuntu has some focused work to make it shine." - https://twitter.com/UnixRat/status/1258151270122217472
#xubuntu-devel 2020-05-17
<Unit193> Well, at least likes Xubuntu. :)
<ali1234> i think atril may have a memory leak https://imgur.com/vCF99x9.png
<jphilips> bluesabre: is xubuntu-default-settings a git repo, as i'd like to begin submitting patches to it
<bluesabre> jphilips: sure is, https://code.launchpad.net/~xubuntu-dev/xubuntu-default-settings/+git/xubuntu-default-settings/+ref/master
<jphilips> bluesabre: okay great, as i went here and saw nothing https://code.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/xubuntu-default-settings
<bluesabre> jphilips: yeah, anything with `/ubuntu/+source` is code directly related to ubuntu packages instead of normal source code. It's a bit confusing :\
<jphilips> bluesabre: thanks. what is the recommended method of submitting patches as i don't have push access
