#xubuntu-devel 2010-10-30
<mlsmith> Hey guys...not sure if this is the place for this but I noticed during the 10.10 installation that the multimedia slide still refers to Brasero as the CD burning app 
<mlsmith> Also, the shortcut created for Downloads says 'Download' (singular)
<j1mc> hi mlsmith - thanks. would you mind filing a bug to make sure this doesn't get lost?
<mlsmith> For both?
<j1mc> If it's not too much trouble
<mlsmith> Not at all...on Launchpad, right?
<j1mc> yes.  i'm not sure where the bug for the installer issue would go, but you could probably file the "Download" bug under Thunar
<mlsmith> Ok. Thanks.
<j1mc> thank you!
<mlsmith> You're welcome
#xubuntu-devel 2010-10-31
<ochosi> hey charlie-tca 
<ochosi> charlie-tca: i just wanted to let you know that i'm working on the Faenza icon-set to make it xfce-complete and whatnot. you can follow my progress here: http://wiki.knome.fi/shimmer:faenza_for_xfce
<charlie-tca> Thank you for that. I am still using that icon set, and it does leave gaps. 
<ochosi> i know it does, look at how long my todo-list is :)
<ochosi> and if you feel something that's not already on the list is missing, feel free to let me know
<charlie-tca> Will do. I have to take a day or more to get my energy back, although the combined energy from UDS is really great!
<mlsmith> Hey, just wanted to give the devs a high five. The 10.10 looks and works great! The wallpaper is a little too light for my taste but otherwise the theme is spot on. Great job - keep up the excellent work.
<charlie-tca> thank you, mlsmith 
<charlie-tca> Your comment is greatly appreciated by those devs
<mlsmith> Are you one?
<mlsmith> not sure what the best method is to give compliments but thought this might work :-)
<mlsmith> I should probably swing by the Xfce channel too huh
<charlie-tca> I am the project lead
<mlsmith> Very cool. So you're keeping them in line.
<charlie-tca> Not so much keeping them in line as making sure we hit the deadlines and get the images right
<mlsmith> I know...I was kidding :-)
<mlsmith> Should I report bugs here? -> https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/~xubuntu-team
<mlsmith> charlie-tca: zap
<charlie-tca> You can. Otherwise, it is best to just report them against the affected application using "ubuntu-bug PACKAGE" in a terminal.
<mlsmith> It seems like the terminal way might be easier? Looks like I need to be approved for the Launchpad team.
<mlsmith> I'm not sure what I have is a bug...
<mlsmith> During installation the multimedia side still references Brasero and the Downloads shortcut says 'Download' (singular)
<mlsmith> Those two don't seem application specific since it's a distro customization?
<charlie-tca> already reported bugs
<charlie-tca> mostly documentation errors. Slideshow takes more work to fix, and we ran out of time
<mlsmith> charlie-tca: Sorry, I may have missed what you said before "already reported bugs." My connection is wonky right now.
<charlie-tca> Those two items were reported already
<mlsmith> ah
<mlsmith> ok
<mlsmith> thanks
<charlie-tca> Thank you for your help
<mlsmith> No problem. If I find anything else I'll be sure to report it. It would be nice if there was an easier way for regular users to report bugs.
<charlie-tca> yes it would. Launchpad is what we have, though. We have to work within some limitations.
<mlsmith> Understandable
<mlsmith> Thanks for the info, Charlie. Have a nice day.
<ochosi> charlie-tca: ah right, didn't know you were at UDS
<ochosi> and anyways, it'll take a while to get this long list done and then it's time to test...
<charlie-tca> uh, yeah. I thought I would try and see how this all really works. It is really amazing to be there in person
<ochosi> cool
<mr_pouit> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Roadmap/Specifications/Natty/Xfce4.8 hop
<charlie-tca> yay! are we really going to be able to have 4.8?
<mr_pouit> 4.8 final, probably not
<mr_pouit> 4.7.x, yes :p
<charlie-tca> Okay :-(
<charlie-tca> I'll take 4.7.x! That's a good thing now :-)
<ochosi> mr_pouit: yes yes yes :)
<ochosi> mr_pouit: i'm not exactly up-to-date with xfce 4.8's dependencies, but is a hal-sectomy included?
<mr_pouit> at least for the core yeah
<mr_pouit> for panel plugin and goodies, I'm not sure
<ochosi> k, well i guess power-manager could be crucial then (or do you count that as core?)
<mr_pouit> ochosi: 1.x should be hal-free
<ochosi> great
<charlie-tca> Is 4.7 what I am running in the natty upgrade now?
 * charlie-tca seems to be looking for punishment. Upgraded his daily work machine to natty just before UDS
<ochosi> hehe, yeah, upgrading your daily work machine sounds like a fun idea :)
<charlie-tca> heh, only way to know if it is still working is use it, right?
<mr_pouit> no, you have only libxfce4util and xfconf at 4.7
<ochosi> sure sure :)
<charlie-tca> rats
#xubuntu-devel 2011-10-24
<charlie-tca> Good night
<Unit193> micahg: If it helps, know I run Aurora
<cody-somerville> knome, Congratulations.
<ScottL> congratulation knome  :)
<knome> cody-somerville, ScottL: thanks
<knome> cody-somerville, i see you are the admin of the xubuntu groups in LP. mind passing me some operating rights too? :)
<knome> pleia2, ?
<scott-work> mr_pouit:  i would like to implement the xubuntu theme into ubuntu studio, are you knowledgeable about the theme to explain a few things?
<mr_pouit> scott-work: which theme? gtk?
<scott-work> mr_pouit: not sure, actually, but i was wondering about the part where the panels are set (i think i understand how to install the greybird theme now)
<scott-work> mr_pouit: i realize this is a rather open ended question and rather ill defined at that
<scott-work> so perhaps i should state the end game...i want to transition ubuntu studio to the generalized themeing that xubuntu currently uses
<mr_pouit> ah, ok
<scott-work> i believe i know how to implement the greybird theme, but this does not change the panels
<mr_pouit> for the panel it's only a matter of default settings
<scott-work> are there other aspects that i would need to address as well, other than greybird and panels?
<scott-work> re: default settings, i believe they are xml files?
<mr_pouit> other aspects: you might want lightdm & plymouth themes as well
<scott-work> we have a plymouth theme that is acceptable
<scott-work> although i certainly wouldn't mind changing the lightdm theme, especially after what i saw on the ubuntu image
<mr_pouit> for the panel, the default upstream configuration (when nothing exists in $HOME), is /etc/xdg/xdg/xfce4/panel/default.xml
<mr_pouit> but I patched that to search in $XDG_CONFIG_DIRS instead
<mr_pouit> (so e.g. for Xubuntu, it will use /etc/xdg/xdg-xubuntu/xfce4/panel/default.xml)
<scott-work> so this should be fairly easy to moderate and implement for studio, correct?  just update the xml file at /etc/xdg/xdg-xubuntu/xfce4/panel/default.xml?
<mr_pouit> so if you set some special xdg dirs for ubuntu studio, you can drop a config file there
<scott-work> or i guess maybe make 'xdg-ubuntustudio' i suppose
<mr_pouit> yeah
<scott-work> wouldn't i be able to moderate my current panel layout, find my local /etc/xdg/xdg-xubuntu/xfce4/panel/default.xml file and use it?
<mr_pouit> yeah, you can try that (but if you reuse your user config, some small changes are needed)
<mr_pouit> for your user, it's in $HOME/.config/xfce4/xfconf/xfce-perchannel-xml/xfce46panel.xml
<mr_pouit> xfce4-panel.xml, sorry, typo
<mr_pouit> also note that such a default systemwide config is only used on fresh installs/first launch, and upgrades from earlier (e.g. xfce4-panel 4.6) versions
<mr_pouit> if there's already some user config, it won't be overwritten
<mr_pouit> (and if you need an example of the layout, you can also look in xubuntu-default-settings)
<scott-work> mr_pouit:  i might be misunderstanding...
<scott-work> in order to update the current ubuntu studio theme/setting, i was thinking of moderating my current layout (in stock xubuntu), and using my local file as the basis for updating the package
<scott-work> are you saying that this may not be a viable process?
<scott-work> "moderating my current layout" means to update the layout slightly in order to more resemble ubuntu studio's previous panel layout
<mr_pouit> if you copy $HOME/.config/xfce4/xfconf/xfce-perchannel-xml/xfce46panel.xml to e.g. /etc/xdg/xdg-ubuntustudio/xfce4/panel/default.xml, it will be _almost_ ok
<mr_pouit> (xfce4-panel.xml, typo again)
<mr_pouit> but some panel plugins still store their own config in another folder, so you'll need to copy the files as well, and the launchers' paths will need to be changed as well
<mr_pouit> but I can tell you what you need to adjust as soon as you've moderated your current layout
<scott-work> ah, okay
<scott-work> perhaps during uds i might play with this and then i can give you more details about the layout then
<scott-work> mr_pouit: will you be at uds?   (not that this needs to be done at uds, mind you ;)
<scott-work> i ask about your presence at uds because i think it would be nice to meet you in person :-)
<mr_pouit> ah, no, I won't go
<scott-work> ah :(   i'm trying to get my list together of people that i would like to meet at uds
<GridCube> good morning
<Krawlezt> Hey, im very intressed of Xubuntu but i only have 700mb cds and the .rar file is around 650mb, how big is it when i have pack'd it up?
<madnick> rar file?
<Krawlezt> I saw an .rar or .zip file on a mirror.
 * micahg doesn't suggest rar or zip xubuntu files
<madnick> Likely the iso file opened in WinRAR :P
<micahg> .rar and .zip files are known for being attack vectors for virii
<mr_pouit> "Commonly Xubuntu is used on machines that have low performance hardware."
<mr_pouit> maybe some people should not post on launchpad
<pleia2> I was very diligent about making sure we removed all references to such things on our site, and yet... :)
<mr_pouit> there's a question about xubuntu and the guy tells him to install ubuntu, that's awesome
<mr_pouit> (cf. https://answers.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+question/176033)
<genii-around> Whats odd there is that the person does not even state their machine specs so why does the answerer start off by mentioning it, then assume sight unseen the box can run regular ubuntu. Weird.
<Unit193> And Xubuntu isn't aimed at lightweight (anymore), it's more for Xfce, an alternate to Gnome/Unity, and just tries to not be a resource hog
 * micahg should subscribe to the xubuntu tag on askubuntu.com
#xubuntu-devel 2011-10-25
<mr_pouit> new thunar, tumbler and xfce4-panel just entered wheezy
<mr_pouit> (I've synced tumbler)
<pleia2> knome: plugin on new wp site looks good \o/
<pleia2> I don't think the arrows actually work though (not sure I like them anyway)
<Pjotr> mr_pouit: I have a feature request for xfce4-power-manager. I would like to be able to select "shutdown" as action when the laptop lid is being closed. This option is not available now, in Oneiric.
<Pjotr> Is this possible? And what workaround can I use, for the time being (which config file to edit)?
<scott-work> any sessions available for xubuntu or xfce during uds-p?
<scott-work> also, what will xubuntu do when wayland is implemented?
<scott-work> i'll catch the any answers on my ScottL account
<pleia2> pretty sure wayland is too far off to think about right now :)
<pleia2> not sure about xubuntu-specific sessions, but last time charlie-tca met in hallways to discuss things, we'll both be there again
<ScottL> pleia2, i hope to meet both you and charlie at uds-p
#xubuntu-devel 2011-10-26
<knome> pleia2, the arrows aren't styled yet. we can either hide them completely, or, style them
<knome> cody-somerville, ping
#xubuntu-devel 2011-10-27
 * micahg wonders where charlie-tca is
<Unit193> Wasn't he not really going to be around much 'til after UDS?
<micahg> oh, maybe
<mr_pouit> http://mail.xfce.org/pipermail/xfce4-dev/2011-October/029182.html
<mr_pouit> (for those who were still doubting)
#xubuntu-devel 2011-10-28
<ScottL> lightdm is funny between my laptop and my desktop
<ScottL> laptop i used the 11.10 disk and the lightdm is kinda ugly
<ScottL> desktop i had 11.04 installed and upgraded to 11.10 and the lightdm is kinda pretty
<Unit193> Xubuntu 11.10 final?
<ScottL> i believe so Unit193 
<ScottL> i thought i also looked at the lidhtdm package and it only had a single upload (i could be wrong)
<Unit193> Can you dpkg -l |grep lightdm  on both?
<ScottL> sure...i'll do laptop right now ('ats where i'm at)
<ScottL> ii  liblightdm-gobject-1-0                 1.0.1-0ubuntu6                          LightDM GObject client library
<ScottL> ii  lightdm                                1.0.1-0ubuntu6                          Display Manager
<ScottL> ii  lightdm-gtk-greeter                    1.0.1-0ubuntu6                          LightDM GTK+ Greeter
<ScottL> okay, moving upstairs, give me a moment (or maybe 1.5386th of a moment)
<Unit193> Heh, nice
<scott-upstairs> Unit193, what was that command?  dpkg -l | grep lightdm   ?
<Unit193> Yep
<scott-upstairs> ii  liblightdm-gobject-1-0                 1.0.1-0ubuntu6                             LightDM GObject client library
<scott-upstairs> ii  lightdm                                1.0.1-0ubuntu6                             Display Manager
<scott-upstairs> ii  lightdm-gtk-greeter                    1.0.1-0ubuntu6                             LightDM GTK+ Greeter
<scott-upstairs> when i updated the desktop (one i'm on now) it gave me a choice between dgm and lightdm
<scott-upstairs> don't know if that is usefull or not
 * scott-upstairs is going downstairs so i can compare my results
<ScottL> hmmm, that looks like the same
<Unit193> Same version
<ScottL> you want i should take a picture of the different lightdm screens?
<ScottL> i can reboot and give you pictures
<Unit193> lightdm --test-mode   is all you'd need really
<ScottL> says i need Xephyr...finding it and installing it
<Unit193> Well, I'm not sure what I can tell you after that
<ScottL> okay, here's the not-so-pretty one:  http://imagebin.org/181178
<Unit193> Sadly, that's the default :/
<Unit193> I don't know what you'd have with the nice one, but I wouldn't think it's the Unity one
<scott-upstairs> it looks like what i remember the unity one looked like
<scott-upstairs> almost done
<scott-upstairs> http://imagebin.org/181179
 * scott-upstairs and ScottL are going to play with son before bed time (for him)
<Unit193> That's half Untiy
<Unit193> Ok, sorry I couldn't help really. You may be able to install the unity greeter though :P
<ScottL> that's okay, i thought maybe my laptop was something wrong
<mr_pouit> ScottL: you first screenshot is lightdm-gtk-greeter with greybird (it looks like that in xubuntu), and the second one is the unity greeter
<madnick> http://www.madnick.se/~madnick/upandrunning.png
<madnick> :)
<madnick> Onboard wont work
<madnick> no window manager to make it movable
<ochosi> hey everyone, i just quickly wanted to share something i stumbled across today
<ochosi> it's customized xubuntu and there could be some interesting elements we'd like to pick up there
<ochosi> http://voyager.legtux.org/
<ochosi> (it's in french, but there's a video of it in action)
<ochosi> and if you don't understand french, ask mr_pouit â i'm sure he's got nothing better to do ;)
<ochosi> ok, i'm off again, see you!
<knome> ochosi, can you elaborate a bit more when you get back - what is what you think we could copy?
<madnick> knome: the greeter we worked on last release, is the graphical profile for that still acceptable?
<knome> madnick, yup
<knome> GridCube, welcome :P
<GridCube> knome: :D thank you
* knome changed the topic of #xubuntu-devel to: Xubuntu Development | Support at #xubuntu | Working on: Precise Pangolin | Schedule: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/PrecisePangolin/ReleaseSchedule | Wiki: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu | Testing for Precise begins 2011-11-28
<knome> i think we should create a "developer resources" page at xubuntu.org when we get to release the new website
<knome> with links to release schedule, wiki, LP bugs, etc.
<knome> and the iso reports too
<GridCube> :) that would be nice
<knome> GridCube, in "daily online reporting system", would you report "onlines" ?:P
<GridCube> one thing i would like to add to the reporting interface is a dynamic "this are the bugs that are bothering us now" so when you are reporting you can actually test those bugs to see if they still happen or no
<knome> daily reporting system online rather
<knome> why not
<knome> would those be pulled from LP directly (any bugs with tag something-unique) ?
<GridCube> :P oh well my mind think in spaÃ±ish
<GridCube> i think it should pull them from the reports
<knome> but i think daily iso reporting system is way more descriptive
<knome> right...
<GridCube> :D i think its good too, but you said it could turn into any kind of reporting
<GridCube> :P
<knome> yeah
<knome> if you do, rename the project to something completely different then
<GridCube> Daily Testings Results Reporting System :P
<knome> like, "the fox in your armpit"
<GridCube> hahaha
<madnick> mr_pouit: for this system, LGPL vs GPL?
<knome> feel free to select the project name yourself, but my favourite is "DIRS" :)
<GridCube> i should say, i've used example code from the PHP manuals and help from forums
<madnick> knome: i already registered dirs
<madnick> hehe
<GridCube> that would cause any problem?
<knome> i don't think, because you probably want to rewrite most of it to enable modularity
<GridCube> :P
<madnick> https://launchpad.net/dirs
<GridCube> well anyway we will changeit for sqlite
<knome> and if it's single things, like "how does one connect to mysql server", that can't really be licensed :P
<GridCube> :D
<GridCube> :D good then madnick 
<GridCube> i like that name
<madnick> Now we need to send the mail to devel
<knome> you could set xubuntu website team as the driver for the project for now
<madnick> okay
<madnick> :)
<knome> (if you think the website team should drive the development ;))
<madnick> :D
<madnick> I'm very tired, as I got up very early, question is if I should work out the -devel email tonight or tomorrow when im more clear
<madnick> GridCube: when do you get online tomorrow?
<GridCube> oh ...
<GridCube> tomorrow is saturday, no work, have to visit a library to desing an automation system for it, so... say 17:00GTM-3Â¿?
<madnick> okay :)
<knome> madnick, whatever suites you best. you can just send a real quick email today, and send an another today explaining the stuff more
<madnick> true
<madnick> I wanted to make a spec before acctually submitting, so that we can get some input
<GridCube> you could point them to our current interface
<GridCube> :P
<madnick> yeah
<GridCube> saying this is alpha 0.03
<knome> or, you can just write the mail when you are ready
<madnick> :P
<knome> no rush
<knome> you know what would be a good name for the project?
<knome> marathon, becuase (iso) testing/reporting is not something you want/should do for only a short time
<madnick> :)
<madnick> I bet thats taken
<knome> marathon-rs
<knome> rs for reporting system
<madnick> true, it is a good name
<knome> or marathon-reports
<madnick> "rs" sounds better
<madnick> i think
<knome> heh
<madnick> knome: i can indeed change the project name, but i cannot change "dirs" from the url :(
<knome> but that's not so different from -rs, if that's an issue
<knome> err, marathon-rs is not so different from marathon
<madnick> not a problem however, it will appear as marathon-rs
<knome> or you can just remove the project
<knome> and create new
<knome> :P
<madnick> haha
<knome> well, no harm done yet really
<knome> nothing you should worry of losing
<madnick> im just a bit confused why i cannot change that
<madnick> it would be a trival thing for them to implement
<knome> don't know
<knome> maybe they don't want people to lose the urls/get confused when a project name changes
<madnick> knome: no worries, the admins can do it for me
<madnick> it says on there
<knome> hehe
<knome> meh, i should assemble an ikea shelf
<madnick> billy? :D
<knome> almost
<knome> benno (that's the cd shelf for the billy series)
<madnick> oh
<knome> it's the 6th we'll have :PP
<knome> i have a narrow billy shelf too
<knome> i can't even get that filled :(
<madnick> i got an ikea bed just a couple of weeks ago, took me 2 hours to assemble it
<knome> lol
<madnick> then i noticed that, i couldve just got the matrass
<knome> we actually bought a spare part for our ikea bed too :P
<knome> in double-beds they have this very light metal bar in the middle
<knome> to hold the wooden bars
<knome> well, the metal teared and bended
<madnick> oh, my bed is like 2 metal bars on the sides and one in the middle
<knome> of course
<knome> yeah
<knome> it's wider in the middle?
<madnick> yes
<knome> that's what got borked :P
<madnick> :o
<knome> yeah
<knome> there's the taps in the ends?
<knome> to hold the wooden bars
<madnick> yes
<madnick> you like just put it there
<madnick> not attached
<knome> between those taps and the wall
<knome> the metal said "RRRRRIP"
<knome> too much weight to that spot
<madnick> now im gonna be scared to sleep :D
<knome> lol
<knome> it won't drop you
<knome> it just makes the bed wind in the middle if it rips :P
<knome> AND THAT SUCKS
<madnick> indeed
<knome> sleeping on a slanted  base... BAH
<knome> but yeah, i fixed that today with the spare part :P
<knome> 16e for the spare part
<knome> did i already say that? :P
<madnick> nope
<GridCube> XD
<knome> yup
<GridCube> ikea
<knome> not too much really
<GridCube> XD
<GridCube> here in argentina we buy stuff thats already done :P
<knome> GridCube, none of the other stores had a bed with as simple design (we wanted really plain)
<madnick> when i came home and realized that the matrass is basically the bed, i got mad for spending 400 euro on the frame itself
<GridCube> :P yes, a lot of those
<knome> GridCube, you're free to buy that here too, but it's 2 or more times expensive
<knome> madnick, lol :D
<GridCube> :o
<knome> ikea is really cheap
<knome> you don't get sad if you break something
<knome> you just buy a new one
<GridCube> yes, thats capitalism for you
<GridCube> XD
<knome> yup :P
<GridCube> so well, what should learn?
<knome> of course i'd rather buy quality stuff for a more expensive price...
<GridCube> sqlite?
<knome> but from my experiences, it's not any better quality, and you just get sad when it breaks :(
<GridCube> knome: do you know the Vimes Theory Of Really Cheap Boots?
<knome> no
<knome> (this starts to be offtopic, just as we moved our discussion here :P)
<GridCube> :P Vimes is a character on the discworld books of terry pratchett
<GridCube> oh yes
<GridCube> sorry
<GridCube> XD
<knome> i don't read fantasy or scifi at all
<knome> np :P
<knome> I'M THE KING
<GridCube> hahaha
<GridCube> XD
<knome> anyway, about sqlite..
<knome> if you want it to be light, sqlite can be a good choice
<knome> you probably should discuss about it with madnick
<knome> if he has a vision for the project
<knome> sqlite might also be a bad choice, if you want to build something really heavy
<GridCube> http://wiki.lspace.org/wiki/Sam_Vimes_Theory_of_Economic_Injustice            http://cartermagna.blogspot.com/2009/09/captain-samuel-vimes-boots-theory-of.html
<knome> (database abstraction ftw, but that's outside the scope of this project)
<GridCube> knome: the thing is, i don't think the database would be soooo big
<GridCube> i mean, its pretty simple stuff
<GridCube> FAIL/PASS, BUG, NICKS 
<knome> depends on what you want to pull out from it
<GridCube> thats about ti
<madnick> Well, its also the factor of: not requiring any mysql server
<madnick> And being redistributable
<GridCube> yes
<knome> and what's the scale
<knome> 1000 reporters?
<knome> 10000 reports per day?
<knome> you don't want sqlite...
<GridCube> D: if we ever get to that!
<GridCube> with luck we have 50 reportes and 10 reports a day
<knome> i wasn't talking about xubuntu, i was talking about any of the other stuff people might use the project for
<GridCube> oh
<GridCube> i see
<knome> meh. going to assemble the shelf now
<knome> more or less afk for a moment ->
<GridCube> well maybe porting it from sqlite to mysql isnt that hard
<madnick> Well, we could make an "installer"
<madnick> web based
<madnick> That allows you to pick
<GridCube> and choose what database to use :)
<madnick> yeah
<GridCube> i was thinking about that too
<madnick> or atleast
<GridCube> but then we should code twice?
<madnick> MySQL vs SQLite
<madnick> Well
<madnick> We might not need to, there is libs for that
<madnick> But if we choose to
<madnick> i guess we could, if its only SQLite and MySQL
<GridCube> yes i think we should keep on those too
<GridCube> s/too/two/
<madnick> Or we could just go with MySQL, while also allowing exports
<GridCube> :) i like that one too
<knome> madnick, db abstraction, yeah.. :P
<knome> madnick, i suppose there is tons of libs
<knome> madnick, even a canonical written one
<knome> no, wait, my memory fails, it was ORM
<knome> or is that ===
<knome> or ==
<knome> cody-somerville, will you make me the owner/admin of xubuntu-users too, so i can change the branding etc. thanks! :)
<knome> https://launchpad.net/~xubuntu-art
<knome> :P
<genii-around> Poor GridCube has been waiting there since June
<GridCube> :P
<GridCube> D: that logo
<GridCube> is so weird
<GridCube> no really, what happened to that logo?
<knome> lol
<knome> it depicts "artists" :P
<Unit193> Need to update https://launchpad.net/~xubuntu-testers too :D
<knome> yeah.
<knome> i was actually thinking of recoloring the base logo
<knome> for -art too
<knome> red for testers, something else for -art
<knome> and -web needs a color too
<GridCube> lol i was not in that group :P
<knome> i approved you :P
<knome> https://launchpad.net/~knome
<knome> now watch and be in awe
<knome> :P
<knome> (look at the team membership icons)
<knome> hmm, devs need a new icon too
<knome> cody-somerville, can you also change the owner of xubuntu-dev to team too
<GridCube> :) knome thanks for accepting me on xubuntu-testers :P
<knome> np
<Unit193> scott-upstairs: Welcome back, got your greeters figured out?
<knome> pleia2, ?
<ochosi> knome: not sure whether there's anything we actually *want*. i'm just usually interested in how people customize xfce :)
<ochosi> well, on second thought, the conky-stuff could be interesting. at least i remember discussions about including it by default in xubuntu during the last cycle
<knome> yeah
<ochosi> in fact maybe installing it by default but adding some easy switches for it might be nice
<knome> mm-hmm
<ochosi> oh, another thing i've been thinking about: replacing the current time-plugin by the timedate plugin. its calender-function seems like a really nice orage-replacement, especially since it always pops up in the correct/expected place
<knome> a-ha
<knome> i've no idea about that
<ochosi> hm, check it out. it's really quite customizable and fine. i think the package is called xfce4-timedate-plugin
<knome> i just have a reaaaaally plain clock
<knome> meh, LP is slow again :)
<ochosi> yeah, but still it might be nice to have a calendar pop up when you click it, no? :)
<knome> i just made some modifications to our website branches, and these might be the last changes before publishing
<knome> maybe, but i also have a moleskine calendar :P
<ochosi> hehe
<ochosi> me too
<ochosi> i never use online calendars
<knome> well yeah, i think it could be niceish
<ochosi> hmm, already looking forward to the new website
<knome> agreed, except "-online" :P
<ochosi> can't believe it's finally happening :)
<knome> me neither.
<knome> though it take some time to get the last pull and push to porduction
<knome> we've been waiting a week with ubuntu studio to get any reply
<knome> (we've just asked if we could get staging)
<knome> i think we'll do as much of the development on private servers as possible this time
<ochosi> pff, seems you're high on the list of priorities
<knome> then push once, and check if anything breask
<knome> *breaks
<knome> haha
<GridCube> ochosi, :P could i bothehr you on a newer albatros theme?
<knome> ochosi, btw, did you notice the new xubuntu-related team icons in LP? :)
 * knome hides
<ochosi> knome: not really, haven't had any time to look at lp lately
<knome> well i did that today
<ochosi> GridCube: yeah, i hope i'll get down to that at some point
<knome> ochosi, look at https://launchpad.net/~knome
 * ochosi thinks he should start to do todo-lists again
<knome> ochosi, i still need to fix -dev
<ochosi> so you've given them all different shades of blue :p
<knome> yeah1
<knome> !
<knome> isn't that great
<GridCube> ochosi, wanna see my desktop :D?
<ochosi> GridCube: sure, go ahead
<knome> ochosi, think how cool https://launchpad.net/~mrpouit will be !
<ochosi> knome: i've no clue what it was before :)
<knome> ochosi, just some random icons
<ochosi> knome: haha, xubuntu-dev really scales well
<knome> yeah, "well"
<knome> even the logo-size is kind of.. ugly
<knome> with the old logo, with the "shine" style
<ochosi> yeah
<ochosi> lionel has a shitload of karma
<knome> not as much as ~mvo :(
<ochosi> true
<GridCube> http://imagebin.org/181309
<GridCube> :D
<knome> bah, how can it be you have 63 more karma than me?
<knome> :P
<ochosi> GridCube: looks nice
<GridCube> :D
<beardygnome> looks good GridCube
<ochosi> i've started to use a semi-transparent panel lately
<GridCube> :D thank you
<ochosi> black and semi-transparent
<beardygnome> what is in the launcher that you have open?
<knome> not as good as mine!! http://temp.knome.fi/other/shot-20111028.png
<GridCube> its just slightly transparent
<GridCube> beardygnome, my pseudo-places
<ochosi> knome: yeah, i like yours a lot ;)
<beardygnome> are they just custom launchers then?
<beardygnome> knome: how wide is your desktop?!
<knome> ochosi, yeah. note the album covers :)
<knome> beardygnome, 3840 pixels
<knome> beardygnome, two widescreen 24"'s
<GridCube> beardygnome, https://plus.google.com/u/0/104777644685667373488/posts/jPyhGpMGTcM
<GridCube> yes basically
<ochosi> knome: you should use our ppa for gmb ;)
<knome> probably
<beardygnome> GridCube: is it conky that provides the weather for you?
<knome> beardygnome, http://www.flickr.com/photos/emunkki/3707110680/
<GridCube> no, screenlets
<ochosi> knome: the songtree looks nicer with it
<knome> heh
<knome> i think it's the only time i've had so much icons
<knome> (re: flickr)
<knome> funny how it ended up in a photo
<knome> also note... same panel layout as now, with bluebird :))
<ochosi> btw, "we" (as in: you) should do a new wallpaper for the next release
<beardygnome> GridCube: what's wrong with the actual places menu?
<GridCube> too many icons
<knome> ochosi, i was just thinking i'd send a mail to the ML telling i'll add you to our artwork team if nobody objects
<GridCube> i just need fast access to my most used folders, the standard places uses all the thunar favourites
<knome> GridCube, don't overuse the gtk bookmarks :P
<GridCube> also the default folder thing that comes whit the pseudo-dock is awful
<GridCube> so before knowing that places was back i did it :P
<ochosi> knome: sure, go ahead
<beardygnome> GridCube: yeah, i hate the directory menu
<knome> ochosi, hehe :)
<GridCube> :D
<knome> MEH
<knome> i should change my sig
<knome> done
<beardygnome> here's my desktop - http://imagebin.org/181315
<GridCube> desktop icons :P
<beardygnome> yep
<beardygnome> should really clear them down again, getting too many on there
<ochosi> right, here's mine. http://imagebin.org/181316
<GridCube> recursive desktop screenshots
<beardygnome> :-)
<GridCube> http://gridcube.deviantart.com/gallery/?catpath=/customization/screenshots/#/d1dau26
<GridCube> ;D
<GridCube> 2008
<ochosi> seems like you've come a long way since murrina storm ;)
<GridCube> :D
<knome> ugh
<knome> mail sent
<ochosi> which ml was that, xubuntu-devel?
<knome> yup
<knome> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/xubuntu-devel/2011-October/008004.html
<knome> there you go
<ochosi> ty, i only get digests :)
<knome> awwh
<knome> i hate digests :)
<knome> oh crap
<knome> i forgot something :P
<knome> haha
<knome> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/xubuntu-devel/2011-October/008005.html
<knome> that
<Da_Coynul> question about https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/xfce4-notifyd/+bug/835972
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 835972 in xfce4-notifyd (Ubuntu) "after resume the "Disconnected - you are now offline" notification doesn't disappear" [Low,Confirmed]
<ochosi> hmm, i can confirm that...
<Da_Coynul> I found a fix
<ochosi> Da_Coynul: guess it's best if you try to get a hold of mr_pouit then
<Da_Coynul> k, thanks
<ochosi> knome: lol, just realized i don't get digests for xubuntu-dev ;D (only for xfce-dev)
<ochosi> Da_Coynul: have you posted the fix on lp?
<knome> ochosi, you don't get anything for xubuntu-dev? :P
<Da_Coynul> yes
<knome> ochosi, you didn't care to scroll to the bottom of the bugreport? :))
<ochosi> knome: no, i do. but not digest
<knome> well good
<ochosi> i did scroll down, but my eyes are too tired to read :)
<knome> you should read my mails in the list as soon as possible to be able to obey instantly
<ochosi> hehe
<knome> err, some of my english is also not making any sense
<knome> "unless nobody wants"
<ochosi> yeah, also: "a word or few..."
<knome> :P
<mr_pouit> eh, how https://launchpad.net/~mrpouit will be cool? :p
<knome> mr_pouit, see the membership icons :D
<knome> mr_pouit, and think that the xubuntu-dev icon is fixed too...
<mr_pouit> Da_Coynul:  thanks for your work on this issue. Now you need to wait for a maintainer of nm to comment ;-)
<knome> lol, good reading: 'maintainer of nm to connect'
<Da_Coynul> no problem.  have a lot of time on my hands lately...
<ochosi> Da_Coynul: sounds like you wanna join the xubuntu-dev team :)
<knome> haha :)
<knome> at least our dev community is VERY welcoming
<knome> even a bit too welcoming
<knome> ;)
<Da_Coynul> nice :)
<knome> Da_Coynul, yeah, if you have extra time... extra hands are always nice to have around
<knome> especially if they are (re)pluggable
<knome> ;)
<Da_Coynul> hehe
 * knome is a bad boy and eats some candy just before going to bed
<Da_Coynul> I also helped with Bug #872652 - that one was REALLY annoying
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 872652 in linux (Ubuntu) "screensaver backlight stuck off, system looks hung" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/872652
<Da_Coynul> I like Xubuntu...would like to see more people get involved.
<knome> me too!
<knome> Da_Coynul, are you following the developer mailing list, or anything
<Da_Coynul> I was just reading it first time today.  Will keep an eye on it now.
<Da_Coynul> I just learned Xubuntu gets no support from Canonical..
<knome> yeah.
<knome> at least no financial support... and one could say there's no technical support either
<Da_Coynul> have you been able to get Ubuntu devs to implement fixes for bugs that only affect Xubuntu?
<knome> nope.
<knome> not really.
<knome> and not even help fixing them, even if they broke the stuff.
<knome> (usually)
 * Unit193 looks at thunar and U1
<ochosi> Unit193: never tried it, what's the status?
<knome> doesn't work
<knome> :P
<ochosi> hah
<ochosi> simple is that?
<Unit193> Yep
<knome> i think that was an ironical comment
<ochosi> yeah, i thought so, just wanted to know whether they broke something or whether it wasn't working in the first place
<ochosi> does anyone know what's needed for U1?
#xubuntu-devel 2011-10-29
<knome> patiency and a bloated DE
 * knome hides
<ochosi> knome: what is "patiency"? is that a variation of the game "patience"?
<knome> lol
 * knome kicks himself in the ankle
<knome> i really should sleep
<knome> i even fixed our bed today!!
<ochosi> yeah, same here
<ochosi> just wanna finish something first
<knome> hmm... suspicious
<ochosi> hm?
<knome> nvm :P
<knome> heh
<knome> he had enough :)
<knome> http://feedproxy.google.com/~r/Wulffmorgenthaler/~3/KBQ7RrFZ5NI/
<knome> !alis | Da_Coynul 
<ubottu> Da_Coynul: alis is a services bot that can help you find channels. Read "/msg alis help list" for help and ask any questions about it in #freenode. Example usage: /msg alis list #ubuntu*
<knome> BAH
<knome> Da_Coynul, sorry... :)
<ochosi> knome: btw, re: funny comics: http://www.smbc-comics.com/
<Da_Coynul> no problem...sounds like u r tired
<ochosi> today's quite funny in fact
<knome> i am
<knome> it's only 3am...
<knome> heh, nice ochosi 
<Da_Coynul> wow...don't think I'll be up that late!
<knome> heh :)
<ochosi> knome: also, if SiDi shows up in the near future, feel free to forward him this one: http://www.smbc-comics.com/index.php?db=comics&id=2407#comic
<knome> haha
<knome> i can post that to him when i see him at MSN
<ochosi> yup, good idea :)
<GridCube> http://www.supermegacomics.com/images/16.gif
<ochosi> heh
<ochosi> nice one
<Da_Coynul> nice
<Da_Coynul> http://www.smbc-comics.com/?db=comics&id=1377#comic
<ochosi> hehe
<ochosi> the votee is also pretty nice in that one :)
<knome> lol
<knome> it's a comic
<knome> reality check
<knome> it's what, 3am and you say a girl in a comic is nice?
<ochosi> nah, the "votee" is the red dot left underneath each comic
<knome> yeah
<ochosi> when you hover it with the mouse you get additional fun
<knome> i think i misread two words.
<ochosi> haha
<ochosi> *two*?
<knome> "votee" => "girl", "nice" => "cute"
<ochosi> lol
<ochosi> don't you think i'm falling for a red dot!
<knome> http://wulffmorgenthaler.com/strip/2010/08/16/
<knome> :))
<ochosi> hehe
<knome> http://wulffmorgenthaler.com/strip/2011/10/05/
<knome> that too is nice
<knome> ;)
<ochosi> yup, i like wulffmt in general i have to say
<ochosi> anyway, i also gotta hit the sack
<ochosi> see you soonish
<knome> hehe
<knome> yeah
<Da_Coynul> good night
<knome> i'm going to bed too
<knome> see you!
<ochosi> night everyone!
<knome> nighty night!
<pleia2> knome: doing Disney before UDS so I'm not around much this week
<madnick> knome: you there?
<madnick> oh, i just read the backlogs about what you said, you said "this discussion should be at #xubuntu-devel", i read it as "xubuntu-devel" thus the ML .. oh well, now its there aswell :)
<knome> madnick, now i am
<knome> madnick, no no, it's a good thing you sent the mail
<madnick> okay :P
<knome> how is the ComputerSpecs table linked to the other tables?
<madnick> Computer specs is linked to testperformed
<knome> right
<knome> i was thinking:
<knome> add UserComputers
<knome> and link those to user
<knome> and make him able to select the computer used
<knome> so he don't have to input the data again
<knome> or is it already like this ;)
<madnick> yes, it is linked ot userid
<madnick> aswell
<knome> good
<madnick> knome: wanna see the acctual fields btw?
<madnick> i didnt link them in the mail
<madnick> because i figured its not that important
<madnick> hehe
<knome> yeah, i suppose it isn't
<knome> how is the test schedule stored/calculated?
<knome> or is it :P
<madnick> Well, I was thinking of adding a table for urgent Testcases
<madnick> or a field
<knome> right, so it's the testcases
<madnick> yes
<knome> add two fields
<knome> "testStart"
<knome> "testEnd"
<knome> date-fields
<madnick> yeah
<knome> testStart is when the test appears for users
<knome> testEnd is when it is supposed to be done
<knome> and those whose testEnd < time() == urgent
<knome> you might want to create a table TestSchedule bte
<knome> *btw
<knome> with test id and the dates
<knome> because you *really* don't want to add the data manually
<madnick> indeed
<madnick> knome: but.. is this gonna be a cycle on all tests
<madnick> Or are we gonna have someone appointed to decide which tests
<knome> hmm?
<knome> why shouldn't it be a cycle on all tests
<madnick> Well, I think that, sometimes it would be useful to really really test a certain case
<knome> well of course you can manually add tests
<madnick> if we had a manual flg
<knome> and edit
<madnick> yes
<knome> what you could also have in the TestSchedule table is
<knome> TestCycle id
<knome> which would link all the tests in the same cycle
<knome> that could be "pangolin-1"
<knome> or
<knome> "pangolin-after-desktop-image-brok-horribly"
<knome> though
<knome> when you create a new cycle
<knome> you should either tell the system to take into account the tests already done in other cycle
<knome> or ignore them
<knome> say, you've done half of the test cycle
<knome> and something breaks
<knome> and you want to test the 64bit desktop iso more
<madnick> yeah
<knome> what should the system do
<knome> or would subschedules be better
<knome> "continue with 'pangolin', but also run 'pangolin-64bit-fail'"
<madnick> I need a coffee before I think about this ;)
<knome> heh, yeah
<knome> i'm not the best DB architect there is either, but i know the stuff on some level
<knome> and ideas behind a system that is feasible to manage ;)
<madnick> :) i just hope we really get this done 
<madnick> Before the 1th Dec
<madnick> Since I got 18 hour work days I think it will work out :P
<knome> heh
<ochosi> knome: btw, i started theming the gtk-calendar a bit today
<ochosi> this is the result of a quick experiment: http://imagebin.org/181400
<ochosi> hope i can rework it some more so that it looks more like the indicator popups
<knome> right'o
<knome> need to go now
<knome> see you later
<ochosi> yup, see you
<GridCube> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/vlc/+bug/883463
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 883463 in vlc (Ubuntu) "Firefox 7.0.1 crashes on Xubuntu 11.10 when trying to open audio stream using mozilla-plugin-vlc" [Undecided,New]
<pleia2> btw, I'm doing the xfce of the new "closing windows" section of FCM: http://dl.fullcirclemagazine.org/issue54_en.pdf
<madnick> pleia2: what page?
<pleia2> 27
<madnick> thanks
<knome> bah, dns stuff at server failing
<knome> madnick, you there?
<madnick> knome: yes
<pleia2> it's actually been a bit tricky to write, since I haven't used windows in years :\
<knome> okay
<pleia2> "foo is bar in linux" "err, what is foo?"
<knome> i have a few problems with booting (mostly graphical)
<madnick> plymouth? :o
<knome> madnick, the plymouth screen is strecthed (i have a widescreen monitor), all the characters are a bit wider than they should
<knome> yes, isn't that what we have before lightdm?
<knome> madnick, is that issue addressable?
<madnick> yes :P
<madnick> yes it is
<knome> okay, good
<knome> the other issue is
<madnick> but... aspect ratio scaling is not optimal
<knome> when i get the "routine disk check" message, i don't get a message on how to cancel it
<knome> however, i need to press C...
<knome> ...and when i do the message says "keys:"
<madnick> oh
<knome> those are my little problems in booting
<madnick> Well, i know the solution for all these problems
<knome> great
<knome> it would be great to get them out before the 12.04 release :)
<madnick> But, why is this the first I hear of this :( Wasnt there alot of testing :P
<knome> i think actually the logo in plymouth too is a bit stretched
<knome> i can check that the next time when i boot
<knome> i don't know. yeah, we probably ran out of time
<knome> weird that nobody has said anything about this after the release though
<knome> anyway, now you got the report :)
<madnick> Just need to increase size of message place for more rows :P
<madnick> And find a good scaling algo
<knome> if you need to know anything else about these small bugs, feel free to ping me
<madnick> btw knome 
<knome> yeah?
<madnick> http://www.madnick.se/~madnick/greeter-draft1.png
<knome> nice! :)
<madnick> Like, super super super draft of a draft :P
<madnick> its just working
<knome> btw, we're probably changing the wallpaper for 12.04
<knome> though that shouldn't be a problem
<madnick> nope, infact just do
<knome> it should still be something that stays in the BG
<knome> yeah
<madnick> background: url () ;P
<knome> it doesn't change any design decisions either :)
<knome> yeah, i know
<knome> but also we don't need to worry about transparency of items either
<knome> or anything
<knome> or the logo
<madnick> oh okay
<madnick> so you have a new bg in progress? 
<madnick> :D
<knome> it will be just a replacement that works as the current :)
<knome> not yet, but it will be something that fits in without too much hassle
<knome> 1) because i like the blue tones 2) because i like wallpapers that stay in the background and 3) because i don't want to go through all the same hassle again, and you'll have more time for other things as well :)
<madnick> :)
<knome> (or 3b, you can have some time off too, if you want)
<madnick> me without a computer :O
<knome> lol, that's not what i said
<knome> the break i'm taking from FOSS doesn't mean i'm wihtout a computer
<knome> or without irc either
<madnick> oh :P
<knome> i'm just not hanging around the FOSS channels/networks :P
<madnick> Btw, Im gonna wait before I implement the db, until I've gotten some response on the email, because i figure charlie atleast will have something to say about features
<knome> yeah
<knome> that's good thinking
<knome> if you want more help with the db structure, you could ask either mr_pouit, #shimmer (with some developers) or even the #xfce-dev
<madnick> :)
<knome> i'm going to work on commercial stuff for a while, then eat dinner. i'll be back after those two
<knome> see you! :)
<madnick> cya
<ochosi> madnick: nice work madnick 
<madnick> ochosi: thanks :P
<GridCube> madnick, on your greeter, there is a way to allow onscreen keyboard?
<GridCube> i've seen people whit tablets ask for this
<Unit193> Ah!! Greeter!
<madnick> GridCube: yes, it works, but there is no window manager
<GridCube> oh
<GridCube> that makes sense
<madnick> Which makes it unpleasent to work with onboard
<madnick> Im concidering making a new one
<GridCube> a new keyboard?
<madnick> Nobody in #ubuntu-devel replies
<knome> madnick, :P
<GridCube> :P they migh be all on vacations
<madnick> true
<madnick> its the UDS
<madnick> soon, or now, i dont nkow
<madnick> :d
<knome> starts on monday i suppose
<madnick> ah, on halloween :P
<GridCube> halloween
<GridCube> :P
#xubuntu-devel 2011-10-30
<GridCube> well :P
<GridCube> i think this last structure of the database is pretty cool, tho the specs table needs work http://imagebin.org/181483
<joeC1> .
<knome> joeC1, ?
<knome> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Meetings updated
<madnick> I never understood what "blueprints" are in this context
<knome> https://blueprints.launchpad.net/~xubuntu-team
<knome> for example
<madnick> okay :)
<knome> proposed specifications
<knome> one could say
<GridCube> I think is weird the use of "blueprints", but i guess thats because im not a native speaker
<ochosi> hi everyone
<ochosi> i'm currently workin on theming the datetime plugin a bit for 12.04
<ochosi> this is where i'm at: http://www.zimagez.com/zimage/screenshot-10302011-091547pm.php
<GridCube> thats nice
<GridCube> but whats that grey triangle?
<ochosi> that's a resize-grip
<ochosi> :/
<GridCube> calendar has resize?
<ochosi> it's ubuntu's stupid default setting
<ochosi> resize-grip in *every* window
<GridCube> i see
<GridCube> question: why the default clock need two clics to open orage?
<GridCube> ochosi, if you make that white border a little more grey it would look better imho
<ochosi> GridCube: currently working on removing border and resize-grip
<GridCube> :)
<ochosi> GridCube: http://www.zimagez.com/zimage/screenshot-10302011-095152pm.php
<GridCube> much better
<GridCube> can't you force the triangle to be black?
<GridCube> or the same dark grey?
<GridCube> also plug your computer, your batery is runing out
<ochosi> hehe
<ochosi> http://www.zimagez.com/zimage/screenshot-10302011-095653pm.php
<ochosi> there you go :)
<GridCube> :D awesome
<GridCube> you still need to plug your computer tho
<mr_pouit> maybe he uses a netbook, so there's still 1h30 left ;-)
<GridCube> the triangle stills there buts grey? or just not there anymore
<ochosi> GridCube: removed the triangle (*and* plugged in my ac-adapter ;) )
<mr_pouit> GridCube: not there (the triangle comes from an ubuntu specific patch of gtk2 anyway)
<GridCube> oh
<ochosi> i think the next thing i'll do is flat terminals
<GridCube> :D
<ochosi> mr_pouit: i know you use something different, but have you got any opinion on that?
<mr_pouit> I'm not sure what that means actually :p
<ochosi> screenshot coming up...
<ochosi> http://www.zimagez.com/zimage/screenshot-10302011-100111pm.php
<ochosi> obviously the scrollbar would have to be fixed
<GridCube> oh! :D i asked you to do that once
<ochosi> yeah i know, there were a few people asking about it
<GridCube> :P
<ochosi> so i'm considering doing it now
<ochosi> especially since a few people complained about the dark scrollbar
<GridCube> i think its pretty cool
<GridCube> :D
<mr_pouit> oh, interesting
<GridCube> it would look better on albatross tho :P
<GridCube> or if font where "embossed"like the titlebar
<mr_pouit> but greybird is teh future :P
<GridCube> :P
<ochosi> :)
<GridCube> it would be like working on an aluminium plate :P
<ochosi> yeah, the font-effect could be set specifically for the terminal
<GridCube> say ochosi what color is this grey on RGB?
<ochosi> GridCube: #cecece
<GridCube> ochosi, http://www.zimagez.com/zimage/capturadepantalla-301011-181049.php
<GridCube> :P
<ochosi> mmm
<GridCube> ochosi, why i don't see the dots arrows on the desplacement(?) bars?
<GridCube> s/desplacement/scroll/
<ochosi> i removed them from greybird in one of the later revisions
<ochosi> they're only there on firefox and openoffice
<GridCube> yes
<GridCube> :/ why?
<ochosi> it didn't work so well with the changed scrollbar-stlye
<ochosi> style
<GridCube> ochosi, http://es.zimagez.com/zimage/thing2.php
<GridCube> that thing appears where the pseudo dock is
<ochosi> right, i guess it's its "shadow"
<ochosi> i don't use the launcher-panel atm so i can't check
<ochosi> what you can do is set alpha transparency to 100% on leave
<GridCube> oh
<GridCube> that fixed it
<GridCube> :D
<GridCube> if what i did is what you told me to do
<GridCube> :P
<ochosi> :)
<ochosi> terminal theming update: http://www.zimagez.com/zimage/screenshot-10302011-104356pm.php
<ochosi> mr_pouit: so, do you now have an opinion on "flat terminals"? ^
<mr_pouit> yeah, they look great
<knome> mr_pouit, can we create a new image-posting website for the xfce-screenshooter in xubuntu?
<knome> xubuntu-shots.org
<knome> :P
<ochosi> that'd be awesome
<ochosi> but who pays for the storage? :)
<knome> that would be awesome, not only for the users, but also for use, since we would see the variety of desktops
<knome> sabdfl?
<knome> :P
<ochosi> lol
<knome> just set up with a REALLY crappy hosting
<knome> it doesn't need to work 24/7
<knome> and it doesn't matter if we hit the upload/download limits
<knome> even a homeserver would go, if you ask me
<knome> if it'd only work most of the time
<ochosi> knome: any opinion about the flat terminals?
<knome> ochosi, they look good, though i'm not particularly fond of the grey bg
<knome> (i like my terminal black)
<knome> but yeah, it doesn't mean one shouldn't implement that or that it'd look bad
<ochosi> knome: hm, not sure there's a way to do that. unless you wanna drop the window-borders :)
<knome> i don't
<knome> i'm waiting for darkgreybird
<knome> :P
<knome> that would be just awesome, not only because the termianl
<knome> *terminal
<ochosi> yeah, guess that's gonna take a little longer
<knome> sure
<ochosi> tbh the development time has increased a lot since gtk3 was added to the palette
<knome> if gtk3 wasn't there, i'd just rush for darkgreybird
<ochosi> to have a "complete" theme we'd at least need: xfwm, gtk2, gtk3, xfce-notifyd
<knome> as in just creating loads of images quickly
<knome> and see how that looks
<knome> i'd be willing to do some experimenting with xfwm stuff soonish
<ochosi> another question is: how dark should it be. i mean albatross isn't even *that* dark
<ochosi> i'd personally go for something like NOX
<ochosi> hm, i guess for now i'd just port the current window-borders to a dark theme
<knome> i'd just actually use the greybird gtk2/3
<knome> like albatross
<knome> dark/light theme
<GridCube> knome, :P we can always use madnick's servers 
 * GridCube hides
<knome> and yeah, it could be something like nox, or even darker
<knome> GridCube, ha
<ochosi> terminal update: http://www.zimagez.com/zimage/screenshot-10302011-110907pm.php
<knome> mr_pouit, http://xubuntu.org/mission
<knome> mr_pouit, we *did* say Xfce on our website!!!
<knome> mr_pouit, that page is just not linked to from anywhere...
<mr_pouit> ;-)
<ochosi> think i'll test these terminal settings for a while and probably push them later
<ochosi> if any of you want to try/test them as well let me know
<ochosi> i can either push them to a testing-branch or pastebin it
<knome> pleia2, http://wiki.knome.fi/xubuntu:websitetodo updated
 * pleia2 looks
<pleia2> just checked in to UDS hotel, bumped into charlie on my way in :)
<knome> hehe
<knome> hopefully neither of you hurt yourself while bumping
<pleia2> hah
<knome> pleia2, once you've had a look at it (no rush!!) tell me what you think
<knome> bbl
<pleia2> will be eaten by uds these next few days, but I'll take some time
<pleia2> later :)
<ochosi> GridCube: if you wanna use the datetime plugin you can add the shimmer ppa, a fixed package (without the ugly border and the resize-grip) is there (thanks to mr_pouit)
<GridCube> ochosi, i have the ppa
<GridCube> bbl
<ochosi> yup, bbl
<ochosi> btw, the terminal scrollbar also works with dark/black terminal
<ochosi> it doesn't blend in, but it looks ok
<GridCube> :)
<ochosi> i finally managed to make the scrollbar-trough blend in 100% :)
#xubuntu-devel 2012-10-23
<uzver> hi, is there a reason to afraid wayland? can i use my favorite xubuntu as before?
<ochosi> it'll take a while until wayland takes over
<ochosi> but yeah, as long as xfce is gtk2, you probably won't use it anymore
<uzver> but xfce had planned to port to gtk3
<uzver> or not?
<knome> soemday
<knome> someday too
<uzver> :)
<uzver> will wayland be default in april 2013 release (13.04)?
<uzver> *ubuntu release
<ochosi> no, i don't see that happening
<ochosi> wayland just had its first release
<ochosi> which mostly means it'll be api/abi stable from now on
<ochosi> so people can really start to work with it
<ochosi> (and with "people" i don't mean end-users, but toolkit-devs)
<uzver> hope nvidia blob's will support wayland :(
<ochosi> it will have to
<uzver> and xfce too
<uzver> :)
<knome> ochosi, is it still true that wayland has been in schedule?
<knome> i remember you/somebody saying it has been progressing as expected surprisingly well
<ochosi> well afair from kristian's talk @fosdem, he said that it'll see a 1.0 release in the summer
<ochosi> so it's a bit later than projected, but not by much
<ochosi> g2g
<ochosi> bbl
<knome> ok, see you and have fun
#xubuntu-devel 2012-10-24
<ailo> knome: I'll be in around from Sunday to Saturday, so I'll gladly join in on whatever Friday activities you had planned
<knome> ailo, pleia2 wants to go to the zoo, and that works for me, as long as the weather isn't totally sucky
<knome> ailo, i'm leaving friday night myself, so some restrictions on stuff
<pleia2> elephants!
<ailo> knome: I've never been there, so that might be fun. -- Aha :)
<pleia2> I didn't see any in ghana, only monkeys (and goats and chickens...)
<knome> pleia2, oh hi!
 * pleia2 checks on flights
<knome> pleia2, btw, we're having lunch with stgraber and highvoltage some day
<pleia2> yay :D
<knome> just had stgraber in PM
<knome> maybe ailo should join us for the "flavor" lunch ;)
<pleia2> knome: you wanted to chat before UDS, I'm thinking I can do that some time on friday
<pleia2> I don't know when, my sleep schedule will be a mess
<knome> pleia2, well i was thinking about the schedules generally
<ailo> knome: Sure, why not? As long as they have a vegetarian flavors too
<knome> ailo, i'm sure they do, that's the canonical offered lunch :)
<knome> pleia2, and xubuntu sessions
<knome> pleia2, is there some sessions where you want to be around?
<knome> pleia2, if you could list me those, i could schedule the xubuntu sessions somewhere
<pleia2> I need to look at the schedule...
<knome> pleia2, yeah, and the thing is that it's constantly evolving
<pleia2> but honestly the schedule is crazy and changes every 5 minutes even during uds
<knome> pleia2, but i'll make sure i'll avoid at least the ubuntu women sessions
<pleia2> yeah, the UW session should be on thursday
<knome> pleia2, of course... but i'm thinking we should schedule 2-3 xubuntu sessions just to have some space to run them on
<knome> (if we don't schedule, there might not be any rooms available)
<pleia2> suppose I should go t othe leadership summit tuesday afternoon
<pleia2> monday morning looks boring
<knome> leadership mini-summit?
<pleia2> yeah
<pleia2> I need to talk dholbach into coming out of it with a document or something, it's been all echo-chamber at past UDSes and that makes me grumpy
<knome> qa community planning!
<knome> that's relatively interesting, and would be good to get to know balloons personally
<pleia2> ah yeah, we should go to that
<knome> pleia2, so there will be no free time for you tomorrow?
<pleia2> it might move though, it's against another QA session
<knome> yeah, i know
<pleia2> I'm on an airplane mostly
<knome> i should still register to it in launchpad
<knome> are you going to readjust your sleeping rhythm meanwhile or just go with the EU timezones?
<knome> MEH I SAY
<knome> why isn't there no links to the LP blueprints from the uds schedule
<knome> hard to register yourself to the sessions
<pleia2> the messed up sleeping from the planes is making planning such things impossible
<knome> oh, stars!
<knome> heh
<knome> oh cool
<pleia2> so I fly out in 4 hours, I get home around midnight UTC
<pleia2> thursday night/friday morning, 4PM local time in california
<pleia2> it's a long ride home
<knome> "testing in cadence" 16UTC monday?
<knome> "brainstorming how future releases can be improved" 9UTC tuesday?
<knome> "qa testing campaigns" 10UTC tuesday?
<knome> "qa weather report" 12UTC tuesday?
<knome> whole wednesday looks really boring
<knome> "making community very obvious on the desktop" 10UTC wed 
<knome> or actually, CET
<knome> is that different?
<knome> whatever
<pleia2> :)
<pleia2> I just let the schedule land where it is, over-planning for UDS is just headachey
<pleia2> subscribe to ones you want, it'll shuffle out somewhat reasonably
<pleia2> and if there is a really serious conflict you can always talk to track leads, or make pleia2 go to a session and take notes :P
<knome> lol
<knome> i'm thinking that if we don't have really differing interests, it might benefit that we both go
<pleia2> yeah
<knome> i'm thinking i could attend the community roundtables on the mornings
<pleia2> that's what I tend to do
<apm1> why did you guys ship the 3.5 kernel in 12.10 ? any specific reason other than user's demand for newer hardware compatibility ?
<knome> apm1, because ubuntu ships that.
<knome> apm1, you got to remember not all decisions are done by the xubuntu team
<apm1> knome, so you mindlessly follow ubuntu , that makes me wonder if you guys are really a different distro from ubuntu or you are just a spin off ?
<knome> apm1, we are a spin off in a way; not following ubuntu in eg. kernel choices would mean massive amounts of work
<knome> apm1, workforce is welcome
<apm1> knome, so what you guys actually do is "take a ubuntu minimal and stick our own tweaked light-dm and xfce " and install some light end user apps ? 
<knome> apm1, something like that.
<pleia2> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/StrategyDocument has more details ;)
<pleia2> but we are very clearly Ubuntu-based, we're just a "flavor" of Ubuntu
<knome> yes, that's the idea
<knome> :)
<pleia2> (whether that means we're a different distro or not depends on how you define distro)
<apm1> pleia2, depending on ubuntu is depending on canonical , depending on canonical = depending on a money centric co-orporation , i.e destroying the design philosophy of free software :(
<knome> apm1, if you want to see it as that, then ok.
<pleia2> your logic is very strange :)
<apm1> honestly the way bodhi linux is going , i would love to see xubuntu doing that :)
<pleia2> I work for a company and am paid for my debian work, so I guess I destroy it too
<knome> apm1, why not just use bodhi linux, if they're doing it right?
<knome> pleia2, traitor!!
<pleia2> hehe
<knome> we've never said we don't depend on ubuntu, or that we're trying to be something completely different
<knome> the xubuntu website starts with the words: Xubuntu is a communityâdeveloped, Ubuntuâbased ...
<apm1> pleia2, no no earning money is not destroying free software but , implimanting features that ubuntu puts up to please more customers which subsequently bloats the distro that is destroying :(
 * drc checks the clock to see if it's troll feeding time...nope...gets out the whip, chair and Indiana Jone's hat.
<pleia2> drc: good point
<knome> apm1, ubuntu isn't directly putting anything to xubuntu that makes them money.
<knome> but drc and pleia2 are probably right.
 * apm1 tells drc he is not trolling , and is willing to have an intellectual discussion
<knome> apm1, what has ubuntu/canonical put in xubuntu that makes them money?
<knome> apm1, or what bloats the system?
 * drc points apm1 to #xubuntu-offtopic
<apm1> knome, imho for starters 3.5 ubuntu devs compiled kernel :(
<knome> drc, well i specifically directed him here. i'll tell him to go -offtopic when he gets offtopic ;)
<drc> opps :(
<knome> apm1, is being current bad?
<knome> apm1, maybe you should use debian stable :)
<apm1> eing unstable is bad , and i am using debian 
<drc> or slackware
<knome> apm1, as i've said, maybe debian is "your" distro then :)
<apm1> look guys i am not here to offend you , i was actually hoping to make an impression on your minds , that will help you choose the right tools for the next xubuntu release , don't see my words as an altercation starter but see them as a review stated directly to the devs :)
<knome> apm1, i understand, but there isn't not much we can do about eg. kernel versions with this team
<apm1> hypothetically ? if i decide to do the kernel work for xubuntu , and i do it stable enough will you guys then unanimously agree to drop the ubuntu inflicted kernel 
<knome> apm1, maybe. that needs to be discussed.
<pleia2> honestly we barely have the dev power to keep the basics of xubuntu going as it is
<knome> apm1, what's the goal in that, what's the reasoning behind that?
<knome> apm1, why would we do that?
<pleia2> so if you could recruit a kernel team we could consider it :)
<apm1> knome, are you the xubuntu project lead ?
<knome> apm1, i am
<apm1> knome, are you also a canonical employee ?
<knome> apm1, no.
<knome> apm1, neither is pleia2, if you thought so.
<apm1> knome, well sorry to doubt you , but if you guys are canonical free then we can talk abt getting a kernel team :)
<apm1> hmm , so we would need stats first 
<knome> apm1, you would need to justify why we need another kernel first
<apm1> knome, well because i think the current one isn't as stable 
<apm1> as the previous 3.2 
<knome> apm1, i've never had a kernel fail in ubuntu.
<apm1> kernel panics on xubuntu made me switch to debian :(
<knome> apm1, when you are justifying us why we need another kernel, please remember what our target group of users are too.
<knome> apm1, you can read more on that, and lots of other topics, from the strategy document
<apm1> look since you guys already have a strategy planned , then who am i to question it :(
<pleia2> apm1: we also need more testers, always need more testers, if you have hardware that's prone to kernel panics you'd be a useful tester *before* releases
<knome> apm1, we don't exactly have a kernel strategy, but the kernel stuff needs to be in line with the existing strategy.
<pleia2> the secret benefit of testing is that your hardware works great at release time ;)
<apm1> knome, but you biggest strategy point of "being ubuntu compliant" will interfere with that :(
<knome> yeah, with non-ubuntu kernel we'd need a lot more testers, we're struggling to do even the basic testing now
<knome> apm1, in that case, you probably shouldn't waste your time with xubuntu
<knome> apm1, i mean, all the things point that we are really close to ubuntu, even the distro/flavor name!
<apm1> ok then i shall leave you guys now in peace , sorry to bother you :)
<knome> np
<bluesabre_> O.O
<knome> bluesabre?:)
<bluesabre_> hiya knome!
<knome> astraljava, there's some wacky smiley for you ^
<bluesabre_> hiya pleia2
<bluesabre_> I wouldn't mind working for canonical, if they paid me to do xubuntu stuff :)
<knome> heh
<bluesabre_> getting ready for UDS?
 * pleia2 off to airport
<knome> slowly
<knome> pleia2, have a good flight!
<mr_pouit> they can't even pay a real release manager anymore, so I doubt they would pay for xubuntu :{
<knome> heh, yeah
<knome> and they aren't paying for kubuntu either
<knome> and i'm not sure it's about being able to pay
<astraljava> knome: Now you're just showing off.
<astraljava> wut?! Can'
<astraljava> sry, "can't pay a real release manager?"
<knome> astraljava, skaet is not paid by canonical for R
<knome> bbl
#xubuntu-devel 2012-10-25
<astraljava> That's... unbelievably sad.
<ailo-w> knome: Could I bother you for a little while?
<ailo-w> knome: I'm thinking about creating blueprints. Like, we did here for the last cycle https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/topic-quantal-flavor-ubuntustudio
<ailo-w> Ah, I'll ask around..
<knome> ailo-w, i'm here :)
<knome> ailo-w, you still need help?
<ailo> knome: Nope. I did some more investigation, and realized it's better if I just ask Scott.
<ailo> knome: I noticed Kate makes the topic, etc
<knome> ailo, i created it for R for xubuntu
<knome> ailo, remind you, skaet is not the release manager for R anyway
<knome> ailo, canonical isn't paying for her to do that at least
<ailo> knome: Oh, ok. So, there's really no need to bother her about it
<ailo> knome: How do you make the dependencies?
<knome> ailo, there's the button "add dependency" at the bottom of the topic-blueprint
<knome> ailo, press that, and paste a blueprint name, and it will show properly, and is eventually linked to status.ubuntu.com too
<knome> ailo, ANY dependencies (even if several levels down) are included
<knome> ailo, ...and shown in the graph
<ailo> knome: Is the topic blueprint just a normal blueprint, but you name it topic-* ?
<ailo> I'm not finding any such button, but thinking perhaps that is due to me not having created one yet
<knome> ailo, yep, it's just a normal blueprint
 * astraljava just got good reviews of precise from a dude who has worked with *nices probably since the early '80s.
<knome> *nices ?
<astraljava> So, good job, guys!
<astraljava> A word play of plural of unix.
<knome> aha
<knome> :)
<astraljava> I never really know how to correctly make words ending in x into plurals.
<knome> ain't that just "unixes" ?
<astraljava> It just doesn't feel right. And not nearly as fun.
<knome> :))
#xubuntu-devel 2012-10-26
<balgkarbr> Hi
<knome> pleia2, so, already remember what time you're landing?
<pleia2> 13:55 on sunday
<knome> pleia2, mm-hmm, i'm in a few hours later
<knome> do you have plans for the first night?
<pleia2> nope
<knome> maybe we should meet at the hotel and then leave for the city?
<pleia2> assuming there aren't any volcanos or anything, sure :)
<pleia2> (both european UDSs I went to I got to much later in the day than expected)
<knome> lol
<knome> there might be some snow (!), but it should be fine
<pleia2> I love snow!
<knome> yeah, first snow for this winter came last night
<knome> pleia2, we got to attend "empowering flavors" on monday (about managing/controlling our own release schedule)
<pleia2> k
<astraljava> Why is there nothing on "trolling your own release schedule"?
<astraljava> Come to think of it, adding 'con' in front, does it make it more positive?
<knome> :P
<knome> ok, xubuntu uds sessions scheduled!
<knome> one is on monday, antoher on thursday
<ochosi> uuh, monday is bad for me
<ochosi> will there be some way to remotely participate
<ochosi> i mean as in: skype conference call or google-hangout?
<knome> ochosi, i'm certain there is
<knome> ochosi, we can just leave the art stuff for thursday
<ochosi> (i mean _participate_, not just watch the feed)
<knome> we will set something up.
<ochosi> ok
<ochosi> actually meh, thursday might also be bad
<knome> on thursday, the session is at 10CET
<ochosi> depends on the daytime
<ochosi> ah
<ochosi> that might work
<knome> mmh
<knome> if you want us to make sure it's at a specified time, please tell me as soon as possible, and i'll try to get the time fixed
<ochosi> well yes, my aunt and cousing are coming to visit me that day
<ochosi> they'll arrive shortly after noon
<ochosi> so i guess before that would be good
<knome> right
<knome> before noon CET?
<ochosi> yup
<ochosi> so 10 CET sounds perfect in fact
<ochosi> oh wait, will we have dailight-saving time by next week?
<knome> yes, sunday
<knome> but so does CET, it's not fixed
<ochosi> yeah, just wanted to make sure we're talking about the same thing
<ochosi> the session lasts 1hr?
<knome> 45mins
<ochosi> k
<knome> the next session starts at 11CET though, so i'm quite sure we can go over a bit
<knome> and as long as there are other rooms available, we can move to those
<ochosi> mhm
<knome> i've asked to fix the session to 10CET
<ochosi> thanks
<knome> heh, i'm told that's not possible
<knome> but if you see it jump around, poke me
<knome> we can try to keep a session at that time anywa
<knome> +y
<ashNOP> Hi, is xfwm4  on xfce-4.10 must restore window geometry after it was tiled? Or this feature present but not working?
<ochosi> it should restore the window geometry
<ochosi> but i'm not sure it always works
#xubuntu-devel 2012-10-27
<ailo> Scheduling meetings: Only through launchpad? I added one as proposed to uds-r
<ailo> knome: ^
<knome> ailo, that should be scheduled automatically when approved.
<knome> ailo, if it seems to be stuck in approving, ask #ubuntu-community-team 
<knome> ailo, (considering you filed it under the community track)
<ailo> knome: I just copied yours :P
#xubuntu-devel 2012-10-28
<mr_pouit> knome: I've been thinking a bit, and I don't like https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/other-r-xubuntu-bugs very much
<mr_pouit> knome: I'd rather have something like: Fix bugs that have the highest frequency on https://errors.ubuntu.com for Xubuntu packages
<mr_pouit> (I know this website is slow and pretty unusable, but at least it can serve that purpose)
<smartboyhw> How come can the Xubuntu r topic blueprint be that clean?
<knome> mr_pouit, well, definitely feel free to change that blueprint
#xubuntu-devel 2013-10-21
<Noskcaj> knome, Has there been any progress on xubuntu t-shirts and (possibly) mugs? 
<Noskcaj> And can we add the idea of a t-shirt where we have just a small version of the logo on the breast pocket? Then we'll have something that doesn't scream "I AM THE ULTMATE FOSS NERD"
<Noskcaj> Also, http://opentshirts.com/ looks like an interesting place to get the t-shirts
<Noskcaj> (i don't really understand it though)
<Noskcaj> It turns out http://www.zazzle.com.au/xubuntu+tshirts is already selling our stuff
<brainwash> Noskcaj: hey, are you familiar with xfpm?
<Noskcaj> brainwash, I don't remember what it stands for, if i did i might be
<brainwash> xfce4-power-manager
<brainwash> :)
<Noskcaj> Sort of
<Noskcaj> Nothing code related though
<brainwash> so xfce4-power-manager lacks the ability to inhibit systemd's lid-close and power-button actions and I just want to know, if it's worth to spend some time to implement this functionality for saucy (a patch seems to exists, but wasn't accepted upstream as of now)
<brainwash> bug 1222021
<ubottu> bug 1222021 in xfce4-power-manager (Ubuntu) "Laptop sleeps when lid is closed, regardless of Power Manager Settings." [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1222021
<brainwash> if no, I won't bother wasting my time
<Unit193> brainwash: Another idea was to re-fork GPM and strip out all of Gnome.
<Noskcaj> brainwash, Please do. That's been affecting me since may (when i upgraded to saucy). I've not been able to shut my lid since
<Noskcaj> And it causes a heap of resume failure bugs too
<brainwash> Noskcaj: there is an easy workaround, see last comment
<brainwash> but it should work ootb
<brainwash> and xfpm should be aware of systemd/logind, just like g-s-d
<Noskcaj> It would be great if we could get a full support fix, but we should try to add the workaround to saucy and trusty ASAP
<Unit193> brainwash: Oh, know of any resume issues needing me to  service network-manager restart  ?
<Unit193> (Trusty is somewhat pre-dev.)
<brainwash> yea......
<Unit193> Not every time, but many. :P
<brainwash> bug 1184262
<ubottu> bug 1184262 in network-manager (Ubuntu) "[logind] stuck in PrepareForSleep, causing network and other services to not resume" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1184262
<brainwash> Unit193: is only nm affected? the session (logind) is still fine?
<Unit193> xscreensaver
<Unit193> Only noticed nm.
<brainwash> that bug report is strange anyway, I am the only one confirming that logind is the (indirect) cause
<brainwash> and it does happen on two complete different machines, not often, maybe like 20% chance it will stop working properly after a resume
<Unit193> I'd say more often for me.  Want me to try and check to see if it's still "sleeping"?
<brainwash> checking the gdbus object?
<Unit193> Yep.
<brainwash> sure
<brainwash> however, if this is the case, you won't be able to suspend again, or hibernate, or restart,..
<brainwash> and nobody confirmed this yet
<brainwash> but it would explain, why nm is stuck in sleep state
<brainwash> because logind is too
<brainwash> "PreparingForSleep = true"
<brainwash> I'll try to restart logind
<brainwash> yeah, works
<brainwash> "PreparingForSleep = false"
<Unit193> brainwash: No, when this happens all I need to do is restart nm, I have no issues sleeping again, or at  least the computer doesn't.
<brainwash> ok
<brainwash> so it will remain a mystery
<Unit193> Menu says Network is disabled or somesuch, I'll have to see if I can wake it with nmcli.
<brainwash> right, nm is stuck in sleep mode
<brainwash> nmcli should work to wake it up
<Unit193> Yep, should.
<brainwash> so far nobody has provided any useful information or hints
<Unit193> Heh, nor can I. :D
<brainwash> expect me, but nobody confirmed by observations, and you cannot either
<Unit193> Nope, I faaaail. :P
<brainwash> well, did you actually check the value of PreparingForSleep?
<brainwash> or weren't you able yet
<Unit193> Not able yet.
<brainwash> hopefully it can be resolved soon, I'm getting kinda bored of this little annoyance :)
<slickymaster> morning all
<astraljava> Can anyone confirm the behaviour of Xfce4 Power Manager, in which it suspends a laptop when closing the lid, even when the setting tells it to just lock the screen?
<brainwash> astraljava: bug 1222021
<ubottu> bug 1222021 in xfce4-power-manager (Ubuntu) "Laptop sleeps when lid is closed, regardless of Power Manager Settings." [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1222021
<brainwash> looks like there is someone affected by the overlay scrollbar issue -> http://forum.xfce.org/viewtopic.php?id=8370
<brainwash> but I don't feel like creating s forum account there
<brainwash> bug 1239014
<ubottu> bug 1239014 in xfce4-settings (Ubuntu) "xfsettingsd unable to daemonize properly when overlay scrollbars are activated" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1239014
<brainwash> oh, nevermind.. I already created an account some time ago
<brainwash> ochosi: check this http://forum.xfce.org/viewtopic.php?id=6919
<olbi> hi guys
<olbi> http://www.webupd8.org/2013/10/xubuntu-1310-sound-indicator-fix.html
<olbi> they write about fix :D
<brainwash> now we need a fix for the bluetooth indicator, the printer applet, the message indicator also, and so on :P
<ochosi> brainwash: i'm currently without internet mostly, will be until the mid/end of the week, so be patient and repeat your questions a bit later ;)
<brainwash> ochosi: don't worry, my messages aren't _that_ important anyway :)
<ochosi> brainwash: sure, but be sure to collect them somewhere
<olbi> this isn't good when we have so many bugs in indicator :P
<olbi> we should w8 with release :)
<slickymaster> afternoon all
<ali1234> brainwash: the bluetooth indicator is a different bug - it is broken in unity too
<ali1234> the others don't exist in gtk2
<brainwash> ali1234: right, so the bluetooth one is even broken in unity, well, haven't seen a single bug report about that yet
<ali1234> because nobody uses blueman with unity
<ali1234> the bug report is bug 1203888
<ubottu> bug 1203888 in libappindicator (Ubuntu) "appindicator ignores menu entries after having sent the menu to the indicator" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1203888
<brainwash> ok, guess I'll bookmark that one too
<ali1234>    51.7GiB [##########]  startxfce4.log
<ali1234> ok, i don't like this
<Unit193> Erm, that's not good.
<brainwash> how is that possible?
<ali1234> a bug
<ali1234> not a bug in ubuntu though
<brainwash> something flooding the log with messages?
<ali1234> yes
<ali1234> i just deleted it and it is up to 13M again already
<brainwash> it's eating your hard drive :)
<Unit193> ln -s to /dev/null
<Unit193> :P
<ali1234> fixed it now
<brainwash> is apport broken? since quite some time I am not able to upload reports
#xubuntu-devel 2013-10-22
<ali1234> it doesn't prompt when you're not on a development build
<skellat> Issues go to errors.ubuntu.com in those circumstances instead
<ali1234> http://askubuntu.com/questions/150476/how-do-i-submit-a-full-bug-report-with-crash-dump-and-steps-to-reproduce
<ali1234> if you want to send a real bug report ^
<brainwash> ali1234: prompt what? everything looks the same, except it does not upload the data after a click on "relaunch" (send report checkbox is activated)
<ali1234> it does
<ali1234> it just doesn't open the browser, because the report goes to a different place
<brainwash> I see, so I have no control about the bug report
<brainwash> and cannot access it on launchpad
<skellat> brainwash: At this point it goes to errors.ubuntu.com where devs see them
<brainwash> skellat: right, I understand it that now
<brainwash> so I don't see any point to upload reports from now on
<Unit193> I had to disable apport because it was going nuts "finding" bugs... :/
<ali1234> brainwash: you have control if you want it, check the link
<skellat> There was some talk of Non-Disclosure Agreements to see what is in the bin at errors.ubuntu.com.  Reports are still good as they show up as hideous flags to developers as to whether or not their software is failing miserably.
<brainwash> ali1234: oh, my bad, should have read it properly
<brainwash> once apport did open 5, maybe it was even 6 apport windows after login
<brainwash> after final release
<ali1234> it's because of the way uploads work
<ali1234> sometimes it tries to upload huge files to daisy, and it is done in the background
<ali1234> if you reboot it does not resume
<ali1234> instead, it acts like the program crashed again
<Unit193> brainwash: Yeeeeep.  Login got about 6 boxes...
<ali1234> also, maybe just 6 things crash on every boot... wouldn' be all that unusual
<brainwash> oh boy, my favorite bug currently is the network manager one, still not a single hint why it won't wake up after resuming from suspend
<Unit193> I think we'll have to go with "It's still tired, so doesn't want to wake up."
<brainwash> if I only knew how to debug ubuntu's systemd abomination
<brainwash> Unit193: do you use gnome-screensaver?
<Unit193> xscreensaver
<brainwash> ok, I'm using it on both my machines which are affected
<brainwash> but I guess it's unlikely that gnome-screensaver is interfering the resume process
<Noskcaj> bluesabre: Have mugshot and menulibre been packaged yet?
<bluesabre> Noskcaj: not yet. Menulibre still doesn't do what Xubuntu needs and mugshot will need another release to fix some of the permissions bugs.  Hoping to have both done within a few weeks.
<bluesabre> heading to bed now, bbl
<bluesabre> interesting thought, since gtk-3.10 has dropped GtkImageMenuItem, a gtk3-xfce-panel applications-menu running in 3.10+ will basically be crap
<bluesabre> unless, of course, whisker-menu gains popularity
<Unit193> http://ftp-master.debian.org/new/xfce4-whiskermenu-plugin_1.1.1-1.html it'll be in the LTS, but I won't use it unless I have to.  And yeah, that sounds terrible, stupid GTK/Gnome...
<skellat> GNOME is turning into a runaway psychology experiment that is lacking the benefit of an human subjects protection/oversight board
<astraljava> brainwash: Thanks, got caught up with other things and forgot about this. :)
<Noskcaj> I've made an attempt at a xubuntu t-shirt on spreadshirt at http://www.spreadshirt.com/design-your-own-t-shirt-C59/product/108355733/view/1/sb/l
<slickymaster> morning all
<olbi> hi guys, there is still problem with Software Center which sometimes crashed :/
<astraljava> olbi: There are a couple of bugs on LP in which crashing is mentioned. Perhaps you could contribute to resolving the one in particular to you issue?
<astraljava> olbi: You can find the list here: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/software-center/+bugs
<slickymaster> knome: ping
<knome> slickymaster, pong
<slickymaster> knome: good morning. Just a quick question
<knome> sure
<knome> (you can always just go ahead, i'll answer when i get back or if others know, they'll answer before that)
<slickymaster> in Chapter 11 - Hardware Devices there's a reference to use Computer Janitor in order to free same of the available hard drive space
<slickymaster> I was under the impression that Computer Janitor was dropped in  Ubuntu - mainly because nobody used it and the serious perceived issues that it could break the system with some of its suggestions.
<slickymaster> knome: what do you think?
<knome> a sec, i'll poke some places...
<slickymaster> knome: It's in the Disks and Partitions section
<knome> well it definitely looks like it's at least quite old; the last release seems to be 2.1.0, which already oneiric/precise had
<slickymaster> knome: yes, there's also that
<knome> slickymaster, hmm... are you sure it's there?
<knome> slickymaster, actually it is not; it's removed for 13.10
<slickymaster> knome: please refer to item 432 in https://translations.launchpad.net/xubuntu-docs/saucy/+pots/desktop-guide/pt/+translate?memo=430&start=430
<knome> the translations might be outdated
<knome> or, tbe, the translation templates
<knome> http://docs.xubuntu.org/
<knome> http://docs.xubuntu.org/1310/hardware-devices.html#disks-partitions
<knome> no mention of computer janitor
<slickymaster> knome: yeah, you're right, I'm not seeing it in my box, also
<knome> the fact that the translation templates are outdated is stupid and our fault
<knome> but because that can happen, you should always check the english source files
<slickymaster> knome: well, I'll make the translation anyway 
<slickymaster> knome: will do
<knome> that's going to be relatively useless, but that does make it disappear from the list of strings that need translating, so fine ;)
<slickymaster> knome: do you think I should do anything, like filing a bug, so the translations templates get updated?
<knome> i think we need a HOWTO for docs, i always forget how to do stuff each cycle
<knome> i'll look into that now
<knome> it should be a trivial task, since IIRC there is a script that does that
<slickymaster> knome: if you need any help on that, just ping me. I'm more than willing to help you
<knome> that should've been done
<slickymaster> knome: what?
<knome> it might either have updated the string in LP directly, or then it might take a while, or then we need to poke something else as well
<knome> the translation template is updated in the branch.
<slickymaster> knome: yes, I can confirm that
<knome> ok, cool
<knome> i'll add doing that at appropriate times to our release checklist
<slickymaster> knome: as I have you attention, allow me to ask another thing about https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/xubuntu-docs/+bug/1238718
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 1238718 in xubuntu-docs (Ubuntu) "Errors in "Chapter 6. Connecting to Internet and Networks" of the Xubuntu Documentation saucy series" [Undecided,Fix committed]
<knome> yup
<slickymaster> as far as I can see it didn't update anything in Chapter 6, I'm still getting the same occurrences with NetworkManager application not being embraced between the proper <application>...</application> tags.
<knome> have you pulled from lp:xubuntu-docs?
<slickymaster> knome: no, I'm referring to the translation template, in LP
<knome> hmm.
<knome> i'll look into that.
<slickymaster> knome: ok, thanks
<knome> hmm...
<knome> seriously? :P
<knome> looks like i deleted all translations from the trusty branhc.
<knome> *branch
<knome> wait, no
<knome> it was just lagging
<knome> slickymaster, can you confirmt it's as supposed now?
<knome> -t
<slickymaster> knome: give a sec
<slickymaster> knome: in LP, no. see item 313 for example in https://translations.launchpad.net/xubuntu-docs/saucy/+pots/desktop-guide/pt/+translate?direction=backwards&memo=320&start=310
<knome> that's the saucy branch.
<slickymaster> yes
<knome> ...we're working on the trusty branch now
<slickymaster> knome: got it, let me go there and check
<knome> https://translations.launchpad.net/xubuntu-docs/trusty/+pots/desktop-guide/pt/+translate?direction=backwards&memo=320&start=310
<knome> that would be approximately the same spot
<slickymaster> knome: it's fixed, now
<knome> cool!
<slickymaster> knome: one lasty thing, should https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/xubuntu-docs/+bug/1238718 be marked as fix release?
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 1238718 in xubuntu-docs (Ubuntu) "Errors in "Chapter 6. Connecting to Internet and Networks" of the Xubuntu Documentation saucy series" [Undecided,Fix committed]
<knome> no; it's marked as fix released once a package with that fix is released; it will be done automatically now that the bug number is mentioned in the changelog
<slickymaster> knome: thanks for everything
<knome> no problem!
<slickymaster> knome: I'll drop that translation in the saucy branch and will just work on the trusty branch. I think that's what is intended, right?
<knome> yep
<knome> all the translated strings are copied over though, so you basically just keep on translating :)
<slickymaster> knome: ok, won't bother you any more. Thanks again
<knome> heh, no problem. happy to help :)
<slickymaster> :)
<olbi> knome, you are responsible for accepting translations in Polish lang?
<olbi> https://translations.launchpad.net/xubuntu-docs/saucy/+pots/desktop-guide
<knome> olbi, i am not.
<knome> but, if you are translating, 1) please use the trusty branch 2) the branches are auto-updated
<olbi> why not Saucy?
<olbi> some errors are there?
<knome> saucy is released, and it is not a long-term support; we are focusing on the trusty series now
<knome> olbi, ^
<olbi> but there is six months yet and ppl are using saucy :D
<olbi> there is problem with translatingi it from launchpad
<olbi> when you have 3 sentences in english, in polish I could do 1 sentence :P
<davmor2> olbi: yeah but with all the letters you add it would be 4 sentences long right ;)
<olbi> hehe :D
<olbi> I started translating this help files, edited html from system :D
<olbi> i do 3 chapters
<olbi> hmm, I add PPA with Xfce-4.10 and Xfce 4.12, install all updates, restart, than after move home icon on the corners of it, thera are sticky pixels :P
#xubuntu-devel 2013-10-23
<Unit193> brainwash: readonly b PreparingForSleep = false;   Nope.  What wired/wireless device do you have?
<Unit193> This count for anything?  Running hook /usr/lib/pm-utils/sleep.d/60_wpa_supplicant resume suspend:
<Unit193> Failed to connect to wpa_supplicant - wpa_ctrl_open: No such file or directory
<Unit193> /usr/lib/pm-utils/sleep.d/60_wpa_supplicant resume suspend: success.
<slickymaster> morning all
<brainwash> Unit193: I noticed this long entry long time ago, but I thought it was just a result of network manager still sleeping
<brainwash> Unit193: and wired connections are affected too
<brainwash> Unit193: on my laptop PreparingForSleep is still set to 'true' when nm does not awake, on my desktop pc it's rarely the case
<elfy> good morning #xubuntu-devel 
<slickymaster> elfy: and a good morning to you
<elfy> hi slickymaster 
<ochosi> morning all
<ochosi> anyone interested in writing some docs?
<slickymaster> ochosi: yeap, what's needed?
<slickymaster> ochosi: sorry, good morning
<ochosi> slickymaster: we're looking for ppl to help us with parole
<ochosi> we just released 0.5.90 (on the way to 0.6)
<ochosi> and we want this release to be the first that actually has *some* docs :)
<elfy> :)
<slickymaster> ochosi: well I'm finishing the translation of xubuntu-docs trusty series
<ochosi> for an example of what we're looking for, check this: http://docs.xfce.org/apps/terminal/start
<ochosi> this is where the docs will end up: http://docs.xfce.org/apps/parole/
<ochosi> but we have a staging site where ppl can work
<elfy> good lord ... you mean actually readable and usable ones :)
<ochosi> (info on how to write docs if needed: http://docs.xfce.org/contribute/documentation)
<ochosi> elfy: indeed :)
<slickymaster> ochosi: I don't mind to take a stab at it
<ochosi> so whoever wants to help needs to use v0.5.90 of parole, which you can get here: https://launchpad.net/~smd-seandavis/+archive/xfce-4.12-daily
<ochosi> as i see now, jjfrv8 has already started with the prefs on our staging site
<ochosi> http://smdavis.us/doku/doku.php?id=parole-docs
<ochosi> jjfrv8: very nice work! thanks a bunch!
<ochosi> so feel free to help him out a little
<ochosi> and as soon as we're getting close to the 0.6 release, we'll review everything and move it over to the official docs site
<elfy> if I can find time then I'm more than happy to help 
<slickymaster> ochosi: one question, you're using moin moin or docbook and mallard on the wiki?
<ochosi> slickymaster: it's dokuwiki
<ochosi> upstream xfce decided to use online documentation in that form
<ochosi> because the learning curve for docbook or mallard was kinda stopping ppl from contributing
<ochosi> even if wiki's are more messy, more contributors/information might be a good thing
<ochosi> so far i think their decision was fine
<slickymaster> ochosi: so the idea is to pick up on what jjfrv8 already made?
<ochosi> slickymaster: yes, you can start e.g. with command-line options and describe those
<ochosi> feel free to check what he wrote in the prefs to keep things coherent
<ochosi> and if you can, get in touch with him and see what his plans are
<ochosi> just so that you guys don't do double the work or anything
<slickymaster> ochosi: ok, will do. Do I have to submit any account registration for xfce wiki? If yes, where and how?
<ochosi> slickymaster: you can only work on the staging site. i have an admin-account for docs.xfce.org so I'll move all the content over after it was reviewed
<slickymaster> ochosi: ok. but when you say staging site you're referring to http://smdavis.us/doku/doku.php?id=parole-docs, right? 
<ochosi> yup
<ochosi> it works the same way as the official dokuwiki
<ochosi> we added all the necessary pluguins
<ochosi> plugins
<ochosi> (penguins + plugins = pluguins)
<ochosi> so apart from moving the screenshots, it'll be simple copy-paste
<slickymaster> ochosi: :). Just one thing, I'm getting a read only page, there
<ochosi> yeah, i guess you need to register :)
<ochosi> but afaik no admin-approval is necessary (but it's bluesabre's wiki, so i wouldn't know ;))
<slickymaster> ochosi: I'll try to register and if needed I'll ping bluesabre on it
<ochosi> great, thanks
<elfy> I can open usage (for example) to the edit page here
<slickymaster> elfy: it could be that, since I'm getting "This page is currently locked for editing by another user. You have to wait until this user finishes editing or the lock expires."
<elfy> try now then
<slickymaster> elfy: :) I was going to ask you just that. You beat me to it
<slickymaster> elfy: nops, still getting the same message 
<elfy> slickymaster: ok now?
<slickymaster> elfy: no, on each of them
<slickymaster> elfy: it can be that you have super powers and I don't ;)
<slickymaster> elfy: I'll try to register and see if afterwards manage to access it with write permissions
<elfy> I love super powers - especially ones you're not aware of :)
<elfy> he could possibly have set it up for xubuntu-team or something maybe
<slickymaster> elfy: yeah, I was thinking of that, when I mentioned super powers :)
<ochosi> :)
<elfy> if I don't do anything else with it I will at least check it for grammar/spelling/readability
<slickymaster> elfy: I such an idiot. I also do have super powers. I was blocking the execution of javascript on the page (it's default on my browser)
<slickymaster> I am
<elfy> ahah :)
<brainwash> ochosi: http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~lightdm-gtk-greeter-team/lightdm-gtk-greeter/trunk/view/head:/src/lightdm-gtk-greeter.c#L1302
<slickymaster> ochosi: I'm going to install v0.5.90 of parole and start to work on it 
<ochosi> slickymaster: great! thanks
<ochosi> brainwash: gotta go fetch some lunch, bbiab
<brainwash> ochosi: ok
<slickymaster> ochosi: np, It will be a pleasure. And since I'm going to work side by side with elfy, I'll be able to secretly learn about his super powers
<elfy> lol
<ochosi> :}
<ochosi> ->
<brainwash> ochosi: I'm checking the source code, because I don't think a solution with feh (simply reapply the root background) will be accepted
<brainwash> ochosi: to prevent the grey background flicker after login
<brainwash> it's just a small change, but I like it and it improves the desktop experience
<ochosi> brainwash: i agree
<ochosi> if it's a small change in how we paint the background in the greeter and there are no backdraws to it, then that'd be the ideal scenario
<slickymaster> ochosi: do you know if ppa:smd-seandavis/xfce-4.12-daily is compliant with trusty?
<elfy> it's not
<ochosi> not yet
<slickymaster> elfy: thanks. that means that I'll have to setup a new VM :P
<ochosi> you can check easily in the ppa's settings
<slickymaster> ochosi: yes, I'm noticing it
<elfy> slickymaster: same :)
 * slickymaster already doing it
 * ochosi is living on the edge with tons of stuff directly from git...
<elfy> I'm living in the edge too ;)
 * slickymaster thinks that with elfy it comes with the territory... since he is kind of a super being
<ochosi> brainwash: 
<ochosi> brainwash: oops. i meant to say: if you want you can check how feh sets the background and simply add that to the call in the greeter. the greeter itself is farely easy to compile/install, just be sure to use --prefix=/usr
<elfy> ochosi: the parole I just got from sean's ppa is v0.6.0 not 0.5.90 
<ochosi> well that's just a minor version 
<ochosi> -numbering-glitch
<ochosi> 0.6 hasn't seen a release yet, so no worries ;)
<elfy> ok :)
<elfy> looks good :)
<elfy> until you try to load plugins ...
<ochosi> yeah, that's currently broken in the PPA
<ochosi> we still don't know why, really
<elfy> k - just checking :)
<ochosi> sure, please report any bugs you find
<elfy> yep :)
<slickymaster> elfy: good to know that ahead. I'll just be able to get everything ready after lunch
<brainwash> elfy: http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=2182546&p=12823528
<brainwash> bug 1221809
<ubottu> bug 1221809 in xfce4-session (Ubuntu) "systemd-shim removal causes restart to logout" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1221809
<brainwash> I cannot access my old forum account anymore after the database "hack" incident
<elfy> brainwash: I'm not having to do with the forum for a while but if you want help getting into your forum account I'll do that in a pm with you :)
 * elfy has a break from it :)
<brainwash> why that? just temporary because of the flood of new "upgrade to 13.10 failed!" threads?
<elfy> nah :)
<elfy> but if you want help we can do it now
<brainwash> well, here's the account http://ubuntuforums.org/member.php?u=1579891, don't have access to the email address anymore, so the account is dead right now
<forestpiskie> exit
<elfy> I only wish 
<slickymaster> elfy: you mentioned early this morning that after adding sean's PPA you ended up with parole v0.6.0. I've just added said PPA and ended up with 0.5.90. Go figure that out.
<slickymaster> ochosi: Regarding Parole v0.5.90, where is the ideal place to report any bug? LP or Xfce bugzilla?
<gdos> !bug 1243839
<ubottu> bug 1243839 in dwww (Ubuntu) "does not install completely. " [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1243839
<gdos> !bug 1243859
<ubottu> bug 1243859 in dhelp (Ubuntu) "does not install completely (similar to #1243839)" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1243859
<genii> Looks possibly related, yes
<gdos> genii: wouldn't it be considered a security issue if neither dhelp NOR dwww read files from /usr/share/doc ?
<genii> I don't think anything in /usr/share/doc could really be considered a security issue
<gdos> reading from those directories doesn't open up the rest of the system which makes me wonder if its a chmod issue?
<gdos> nope. just checked. permissions on all affected folders are what i expected them to be.
<Pwnna> if i want to compile my own xfwm and run that, how do i go approach? any docs?
<Pwnna> i just don't wanna mess up my settings and what not.
<Pwnna> so slightly cautious to start
<Pwnna> i have ppa:xubuntu-dev/xfce-4.12
<Pwnna> how do you guys build these things?
<gdos> Pwnna: try #xfce or #xfwm (can't remember which)
<Pwnna> it's all good now. i htink :)
<Pwnna> who maintains that ppa?
<Pwnna> there's a new version of xfwm :P
<Pwnna> what's the prefix i have to use?
<Noskcaj> Is there any reason why @xubuntu email addresses aren't available?
<knome> Noskcaj, that hasn't been set up.
<Noskcaj> knome, Are there any plans to ever make them? I would be nice to have them, even if it's just PR purposes
<knome> i remember that briefly discussed at some point, but i don't think it's a gamekiller if we don't have them
<knome> i also don't know about canonical's policies; if setting up such is possible (any more) or not
<Noskcaj> ok
<Noskcaj> https://code.launchpad.net/~noskcaj/ubuntu/trusty/xfce4-session/4.10.1-3/+merge/192405
<slickymaster> good night all
<brainwash> can we please increase the importance of bug 1206739 to high and release an updated package with ali1234's patch?
<ubottu> bug 1206739 in xfce4-terminal (Ubuntu) "xfce4-terminal crashed with SIGSEGV in magazine_chain_pop_head()" [Medium,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1206739
<skellat> brainwash: In what way do you want an updated package?  Stable Release Update?  New version for Trusty?
<brainwash> package for saucy including the patch
<ali1234> i think this bug is worthy of SRU personally
<ali1234> it can cause data loss if you, say, launch open office from the terminal (even with &) and then write your 100 page document, and then accidentally open the encoding menu on *any* terminal window, it will kill open office
<skellat> ali1234 brainwash: You guys understand an SRU requires covering not just 13.10 but also 13.04, 12.10, and 12.04 to ensure a consistent upgrade path?
<brainwash> it only affects 13.10
<brainwash> and ofc 14.04
<ali1234> well it's broken in the older versions too
<ali1234> the patch doesn't affect functionality - it replaces a broken, memory leaking implementation with one taken directly from the reference manual
<brainwash> older versions don't ship with gtk3.8
<ali1234> yeah but the code still sucks
<brainwash> we don't care about older releases :P
<skellat> brainwash: SRU procedure says we must if they're still supported
<ali1234> i will backport the patch to older packages in the extremely unlikely event it is not compatible
<skellat> Does the patch meet these guidelines: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/StableReleaseUpdates#When
<brainwash> mmh, so complicated
<skellat> ?
<ali1234> well, see above
<ali1234> if you consider that a realistic circumstance, then yes
<ali1234> if you open the encoding menu on any xfce4-terminal window, it kills all open terminal windows and all processes launched by them
<brainwash> I'm not familiar with the SRU procedure, I just know that if we release broken software, we should fix it as soon as possible
<skellat> ali1234: That would be a realistic circumstance that causes direct loss of user data since it kills processes
<brainwash> therefore the importance level should be raised
<skellat> Next step in the decision tree: Is the issue fixed in the newest version in Trusty's archive?
<skellat> Or is the version in Trusty's archive the same as that in Saucy at the moment?
<skellat> (We can skip that since proposed is still locked up)
<brainwash> appears to be the same, the patch hasn't been accepted upstream yet (everything is going so slow)
<skellat> brainwash: I'm pulling up upstream's bug tracker really quick
<skellat> Okay, all upstream shows is that people are CC'ing the bug
<skellat> ali1234: Are you prepared to make a local build of a .deb file for xfce4-terminal and then prepare a debdiff for your local version against what is in the archive for 13.10?
<ali1234> skellat: yes, but it won't happen until next week, and i might need some handholding with things like writing correct changelog entries and so on
<skellat> Well, that buys us time to see who we can round up
<skellat> The first step would be: dget -x http://archive.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/pool/universe/x/xfce4-terminal/xfce4-terminal_0.6.2-3ubuntu1.dsc
<skellat> And then once that unpacked, go from there patching and repacking
<skellat> Once that's repacked and the debdiff you would end up following this protocol: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/StableReleaseUpdates#Procedure
<skellat> micahg can probably correct me on a few steps but that's the overview
<ali1234> what is 0.6.2?
<ali1234> aren't we on 4.10.1?
<skellat> ali1234: It would be the individual component's version number.  The suite's overall version number is 4.10.1.
<ali1234> oh yeah, i'm getting mixed up with panel, which really does have that version number
<ali1234> the other thing about this is that my patch actually fixes two bugs
<skellat> Cool
<ali1234> the crash and the memory leak are mostly unrelated
<skellat> ali1234: Read the whole SRU wiki page
<skellat> It explains everything
<ali1234> ok, bt the memory leak probably isn't SRU worthy as it is harmless... so does it get a pass just because we're going to update it anyway?
<skellat> ali1234: That'll be up to the reviewer & uploader to determine
<ali1234> skellat: is this right? http://paste.ubuntu.com/6292034/
<ali1234> i don't know what to do with the "saucy" line etc
<skellat> dch -i
<ali1234> i did dpkg-source --commit
<skellat> Oooh
<skellat> No
<skellat> In the tree you want to do dch -i
<skellat> For the repack, dpkg-buildpackage
<ali1234> how does the patch get saved then?
<skellat> I looked again
<skellat> I'm wrong
<skellat> You're right
<ali1234> so dpkg-source --commit and then dch -i? or the other way around seems to make more sense as --commit takes the last changelog entry
<skellat> Ditch the dch -i bit
<skellat> I was wrong
<skellat> Next would be dpkg-buildpackage
<skellat> You have to be able to install it and make sure it works
<ali1234> of course
<ali1234> i'll stick it in my ppa too
<skellat> For the debdiff it would be if memory serves: debdiff http://archive.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/pool/universe/x/xfce4-terminal/xfce4-terminal_0.6.2-3ubuntu1.dsc [local .dsc file that dpkg-source --commit just messed with] > patch.diff
<skellat> And then filing the bug as specified here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/StableReleaseUpdates#Procedure
<skellat> Oh
<skellat> The changelog should have had (LP: #1206739) after your entry so that it marks in the system Fix Committed/Fix Released
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1206739 in xfce4-terminal (Ubuntu) "xfce4-terminal crashed with SIGSEGV in magazine_chain_pop_head()" [Medium,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1206739
<ali1234> but you said not to edit the changelog ..........
<ali1234> y'know, this could be a lot easier
<ali1234> can you just show me a package where this has been done, and i'll just do whatever they did?
<ali1234> hmm i can't build the package because i don't have libxfce4ui-1 installed from a package (it's built locally)
#xubuntu-devel 2013-10-24
<ali1234> okay, i think it is in my PPA now
<ali1234> or not- connection timed out when uploading :/
<skellat> Here's the example cited in the wiki docs you're looking for: https://launchpad.net/bugs/173082
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 173082 in gthumb (Ubuntu) "GThumb crashes everytime!!!" [Medium,Fix released]
<ali1234> brb after rebooting router
 * skellat disappears for a while
<ali1234> https://launchpad.net/~a-j-buxton/+archive/xfce/+packages
<ali1234> http://paste.ubuntu.com/6292199/
<brainwash> I'll test it tomorrow on my test machine
<brainwash> and you should add a comment about your ppa and the updated package in the lp report
<ali1234> let's see if it builds first
<brainwash> I really should learn how to build and publish packages for a PPA
<ali1234> it's quite easy
<ali1234> the hardest part is modifying the package
<micahg> ali1234: you can copy the version from my PPA if it helps (for libxfce4ui-1, ppa:micahg/patch-test)
<brainwash> there was just no need for it yet, maybe I can fix something and publish an updated package for testing just like you :)
 * micahg is behind on backscroll
<brainwash> users-admin comes to mind >.<
<ali1234> micahg: i looked at your xfce4-panel package, i don't understand what is going on with that at all... why it has no configure script?
<micahg> I fixed most of it (it has no configure since I grabbed a git snapshot
<ali1234> running autogen.sh before generating the orig.tar.gz doesn't work either, it makes loads of new files that aren't in the previous version
<micahg> I have the packaging generating it
<micahg> the problem is I only got it working in a chroot, not a clean one
<micahg> that's why I haven't uploaded yet, been a bit busy with work, I can probably poke some tonight
<ali1234> ah... so maybe there's some magic for autogen.sh to build a "release" type package?
<ali1234> or .tgz rather
<micahg> yeah, I got that part, the only issue is the the potfiles right now
<ali1234> when i built it direct from git it was missing some dependencies
<ali1234> something to do with gnome-doc
<micahg> I fixed that
<micahg> well, added the needed dependencies
<ali1234> gtk-doc-tools
<micahg> yeah
<ali1234> i didn't notice any other problems... it would always tell me when running the autogen.sh anyway
<ali1234> i never got weird cryptic build errors
<ali1234> maybe adding the dependencies is not the solution - maybe it needs some special configuration so that it doesn't even try to do that stuff
<Noskcaj_> micahg: Any progress on pkg-xubuntu team?
<Noskcaj_> Does anyone want me to package the new gthumb? It so far seems pointless since debian doesn't want it and no one here seems to either
<Noskcaj_> Also, can someone update the topic with something trusty related?
<skellat> Noskcaj_: Why doesn't Debian want gthumb?  Low popcon score?
<skellat> Noskcaj_: As to the topic, ask knome to fix it.
<micahg> Noskcaj: no, been busy, on my list
<Noskcaj_> skellat: I've not found anyone willing to upload, plus the gnome team says it's not gnome enough
<skellat> Noskcaj_: How far is the packaged version diverging from what is released in the wild?
<micahg> Noskcaj: we'll take it, but I just need a little time
<Noskcaj_> skellat: i don't fully understand your question, but the current version is very outdated
<skellat> Noskcaj_: It's been a weird day for me.  You caught my meaning, though.
<skellat> Noskcaj_: It looks like the DM hasn't found an adopter to let Debian Bug #711827 get cleared up yet.  That's been open for five months now.
<ubottu> Debian bug 711827 in wnpp "RFA: gthumb -- image viewer and browser" [Normal,Open] http://bugs.debian.org/711827
<Unit193> knome: Trusty Tahr schedule http://ubottu.com/y/trustysch  and the Xubuntu roadmap: http://ubottu.com/y/xubmap
<Unit193> Reminder that there is a scheduled meeting tomorrow.
<skellat> Unit193: 1500 UTC?
<Unit193> "the next Xubuntu community meeting is at Thursday, October 24 at 15UTC on #xubuntu-devel on the Freenode IRC network."
<skellat> In other words...yes...
<Unit193> brainwash: First time getting this on resume: https://www.dropbox.com/s/rb00k7spkdetgtf/failed.png
<astraljava> knome: Noskcaj: We got ours at Studio side (@ubuntustudio.org) just recently. I wasn't part of the organizing committee, so don't know the details.
<Noskcaj> thanks for the info astraljava 
<brainwash> ochosi: take a look at this http://forum.xfce.org/viewtopic.php?id=8375
<elfy> good lord - I forgot I had an account there
<elfy> it didn't
<elfy> Last visit: 2012-07-30
<Unit193> It's a forum, so I don't. :D
<elfy> :)
<brainwash> that's our bug 1232804
<ubottu> bug 1232804 in xfwm4 (Ubuntu) "[compositing] improve login greeter -> desktop transition" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1232804
<brainwash> Unit193: this resume problem is still a mystery.. the bug report gets spammed with comments about the fix to re-enable the network manager, no real debugging has been done yet
<brainwash> and pitti is not affected :/
<Unit193> Yeeeep.  Not really sure what I can do.
<brainwash> ubuntu's systemd-shim is most likely the culprit
<Unit193> Yes, lets blame that. :D
<elfy> brainwash: I found this morning that I was affected by another power manager thing - subscribed xubuntu to it
<elfy> systemd-shim is fix on the way I Thought
<elfy>    Status: New => Fix Committed
<elfy> But indeed logind is a rather
<elfy> critical piece of infrastructure these days, so I lifted the recommends to a depends.
<brainwash> different bugs
<elfy> didn't read much - not awake much either :)
<brainwash> on the one hand it can be missing or it can be removed, on the other hand it could be the cause of the resume from suspend problem
<brainwash> yea, I should have added systemd to the list of affected package earlier
<brainwash> mmh, is bug 1116643 still around?
<ubottu> bug 1116643 in xfce4-power-manager (Ubuntu) "Power button mode "ask" does not work" [Medium,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1116643
<astraljava> brainwash: That resume from suspend bug, networking doesn't work after, or is this another thing? I have it happen randomly. Sometimes works, but hard to give any numbers.
<brainwash> yeah, it happens randomly, sometimes more frequently as reported by other users
<brainwash> bug 184262
<ubottu> bug 184262 in gramps (Ubuntu) "gramps.py crashed with SIGSEGV in malloc()" [Undecided,Invalid] https://launchpad.net/bugs/184262
<brainwash> woops
<brainwash> bug 1184262
<ubottu> bug 1184262 in network-manager (Ubuntu) "[logind] stuck in PrepareForSleep, causing network and other services to not resume" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1184262
<brainwash> ^ this one
<elfy> brainwash: yes - 1116643 is still around - it was definitely around at 7:30 am and then at 7:40 am - hence me me too'ing it and subscribing us :)
<elfy> biab
<elfy> and hi astraljava 
<brainwash> usually you could use the systemd cli tool to get some information about system jobs involved in this matter.. but ubuntu only uses a wrapper for systemd calls and does not ship this tool (it would be broken)
<brainwash> elfy: so the power button does nothing at all or triggers the shutdown sequence immediately without asking the user (dialog)?
<astraljava> Hi elfy.
<Unit193> astraljava: Hello.
<astraljava> Unit193: Hello there, how's life?
<Unit193> I don't even know... You?
<Unit193> brainwash: I saved some random logs from last time, guessing of no use?
<brainwash> Unit193: some? did you notice any suspicious warning or error message?
<astraljava> Unit193: It's very odd, but I refuse to complain. I've done enough of that in the past. *smirk*
<astraljava> Ahh... too bad the timing of the meeting is unfortunate for me, got choir practice.
<Unit193> brainwash: I pasted the one, and "b43-phy0: Loading firmware version 666.2 (2011-02-23 01:15:07)" seems odd only because I use b43. :P
<Unit193> astraljava: Bad for me too.
<brainwash> Unit193: ok, doesn't look that odd or suspicious. the whole thing _could_ be cause by the kernel, I read comments of other distros about a similar issue and reverting back 3.10 did help
<Unit193> brainwash: Not exact kernel at least, maybe 3.11 in general.
<Unit193> uname -r: 3.11-4.dmz.1-liquorix-686
<brainwash> I did install 3.12 on my test machine, but it almost never fails to resume properly anyway (logind and network-manager)
<brainwash> so I'm still waiting for it to fail
<brainwash> but same for my laptop with kernel 3.11... now that I'm monitoring everything it simply did not fail yet :/
<slickymaster> good morning all
<brainwash> ali1234's patched xfce4-terminal package is now available for download, https://launchpad.net/~a-j-buxton/+archive/xfce
<elfy> brainwash: yep - press power button - shutdown commences with no 'ask' dialogue
<brainwash> it fixes bug 1206739 and needs some testing
<ubottu> bug 1206739 in xfce4-terminal (Ubuntu) "xfce4-terminal crashed with SIGSEGV in magazine_chain_pop_head()" [Medium,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1206739
<brainwash> elfy: right, that's systemd listening to the power button press
<brainwash> edit /etc/systemd/logind.conf and add "HandlePowerKey=ignore"
<brainwash> and test again
<elfy> brainwash: so that successfully didn't make any difference :p
<brainwash> try again, but I'm sure changes to the config file are applies immediately
<elfy> I did - restarted and had another go - no change
<brainwash> check "gdbus introspect --system --dest org.freedesktop.login1 --object-path /org/freedesktop/login1 | grep HandlePowerKey"
<brainwash> should be set to ignore
<elfy> readonly s HandlePowerKey = 'ignore';
<elfy> why do we want it to ignore anyway - given that I've set power manager to ask?
<brainwash> because 2 different programs are reacting to lid-close and power-button-press actions, systemd and xfce4-power-manager
<brainwash> and xfce4-power-manager lacks the ability to inhibit systemd's actions as of now
<brainwash> so now systemd got told to do nothing, but the system sill shuts down o.o
<brainwash> you could try to kill xfce4-power-manager and test again
<brainwash> make sure it does not get restarted by xfce4-session
<elfy> trying a bit later - off again now 
<brainwash> cya
<ochosi> slickymaster: yes, please report bugs in bugzilla
<slickymaster> ochosi: good morning
<slickymaster> ochosi: ok, will do. I think I'll have the command options page, in the staging site, ready in about an hour. Do you want me to ping you so you can take a look to see if I'm doing something wrong?
<ochosi> slickymaster: great! sure, do that
<slickymaster> ochosi: ok
<ochosi> brainwash: yeah yeah, i understand it's an annoying issue, that session-loading transition ;)
<ochosi> also, the problem with xfce4-power-manager is that it's currently not maintained and doesn't support systemd
<brainwash> ochosi: lightdm-gtk-greeter does set the root background and it remains after login, the question currently is, why is xfwm4 (the compositor) not able to copy it
<brainwash> it only works if the root background gets set again by a tool like feh
<ochosi> how did you check that the root bg remains set after login?=
<brainwash> well, you login and it is still visible
<brainwash> before even xfdesktop shows up
<brainwash> http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~lightdm-gtk-greeter-team/lightdm-gtk-greeter/trunk/view/head:/src/lightdm-gtk-greeter.c#L1302
<brainwash> "/* Open a new connection so with Retain Permanent so the pixmap remains when the greeter quits */"
<ochosi> right, that explains that
<brainwash> currently I've added feh to xinitrc (before the xfce4-session)
<ochosi> but as you said, that makes it odd that xfwm4 wouldn't be able to pick it up
<brainwash> right
<brainwash> https://github.com/derf/feh/blob/master/src/wallpaper.c#L498
<ochosi> mhm, same method as used in the greeter
<ochosi> the only logical assumption (to me) is that there's something that scraps the root bg
<brainwash> feh does call XChangeProperty to change some properties
<brainwash> and xfwm4 does XGetWindowProperty
<brainwash> yeah, probably that
<brainwash> I'll test that and report back
<ochosi> great, thanks!
<slickymaster> ochosi: unfortunately, and due to a work assignment, I haven't finished the command line page, but I'll get back to it after lunch. I just want you to take a look to what I've done so far in order to confirm if what I've done is what is intended
<slickymaster> ochosi: http://smdavis.us/doku/doku.php?id=command-line
<ochosi> slickymaster: looks good to me
<slickymaster> ochosi: ok, thanks. I'll pick up on it later on
<ochosi> slickymaster: and no stress ;) after all, you're a volunteer so we're happy you're helping us out
<slickymaster> ochosi: np :)
<ochosi> slickymaster: btw, there are a few small formatting differences to be ironed out
<ochosi> see that as reference: http://docs.xfce.org/apps/terminal/command-line
<ochosi> (well i guess you did, but if you need help with the formatting, lemme know)
<slickymaster> ochosi: yeah, I know. I'm not happy about the formatting either
<ochosi> but no worries, that's a minor thing that can be taken care of in minutes
<slickymaster> ochosi: one of the things I'm struggling with is indentation
<ochosi> slickymaster: well there are standards you can use, i can show you the source of the terminal's page if you want
<ochosi> (i guess as you only have read-only access you don't see the source)
<slickymaster> ochosi: no, I do manage to see the command line source
<ochosi> ok, then just use the same formatting they use there
<ochosi> consistency ftw
<slickymaster> ochosi: but are the standards used there applicable in dokuwiki? 
<ochosi> slickymaster: no, not for documentation purposes. the only standards that matter here for us is the rest of the xfce docs
<ochosi> it should simply be in line with that so that users are not confused when checking the docs
<slickymaster> ochosi: I see
<ochosi> despite it's name, dokuwiki isn't made for documentation purposes in this sense (afaik)
<ochosi> i see it simply as an easy-to-use wiki
<slickymaster> ochosi: dokuwiki is a bit scarce in what formatting options is concerned 
<ochosi> slickymaster: indeed, but as i said, don't worry bout that too much. as long as parole-docs are consistent with the rest of xfce, we're fine
<slickymaster> ochosi: ok, thanks
<ochosi> slickymaster: well thank you, and ttyl
<slickymaster> knome: FYI https://code.launchpad.net/~slickymaster/xubuntu-docs/xubuntu-docs/+merge/192413 related to https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/xubuntu-docs/+bug/1243946
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 1243946 in xubuntu-docs (Ubuntu) "Duplication of the definite article "the" in the penultimate paragraph of the 'Welcome' section on the Index page" [Undecided,Fix committed]
<jjfrv8> ochosi, sorry I wasn't around yesterday for the discussion on the Parole docs
<jjfrv8> I had some questions and issues I wanted to run by you or bluesabre and I was hoping I could catch you guys today
<knome> jjfrv8, we have a meeting at 15UTC, that is, in a little less than 3 hours :)
<jjfrv8> Yeah, that's why I was hoping today would be a good day.
<jjfrv8> I'll be there for the meeting
<knome> cool
<knome> slickymaster, yep, i got notifications of that :)
<jjfrv8> ochosi, a couple of the questions were on formatting...
<jjfrv8> first, I think we might still be missing a plugin. I can't get Definition List to work on bluesabre's wiki
<jjfrv8> second, I don't know how to get the Gtk and Xfwm themes installed that they want for the screenshots
<jjfrv8> I don't know if that really matters, I think my screenshots look pretty much like theirs in the Terminal example
<jjfrv8> but we'll need to standardize them among all of us who are working on Parole, no?
<jjfrv8> ochosi, the other issues are with the dev version of Parole
<jjfrv8> I can't get it to work at all in vbox
<knome> jjfrv8, what kind of errors do you have?
<jjfrv8> it works for most things on my test hardware but I still have issues with playing dvds
<jjfrv8> knome, I'll get the exact error for you in a sec, let me fire it up.
<knome> sure
<jjfrv8> knome, "GStreamer backend error" "Could not initialise Xv output"
<jjfrv8> I get that when I try to play any kind of media
<knome> that's weird
<knome> have you installed xubuntu-restricted-extras?
<jjfrv8> Oh yeah
<knome> try that, and if that doesn't work, keep poking bluesabre 
<knome> that's out of my area of expertise
<jjfrv8> mine too :)
<ochosi> hey jjfrv8 
<jjfrv8> afternoon, ochosi 
<ochosi> ah, so you're in my tz :)
<ochosi> so, your questions?
<jjfrv8> no, but I know where you are :)
<ochosi> oh
<ochosi>  :)
<ochosi> jjfrv8: so what questions did you have?
<jjfrv8> Some about formatting, others about issues/bugs with Parole and how you want me to file/handle them
<jjfrv8> did you seem my posts from a few minutes ago?
<ochosi> yes, the dvd playback error
<ochosi> not sure, that could be vbox related
<ochosi> problem is, i don't have any dvds here so i can't test anything
<jjfrv8> and the formatting issues with the wiki?
<ochosi> yeah, i'll check what plugin we need for that
<ochosi> and inform bluesabre to put it in
<ochosi> lemme check the theme they use
<jjfrv8> re the Definition Lists, not a biggie, but for indenting, now we have to use bullets, even if it's only one line
<ochosi> the xfwm4 theme is fine
<ochosi> well, it will be there as soon as i copy the contents over to the xfce wiki
<ochosi> which we can do as soon as your part is reviewed
<ochosi> so i'd say stick to the same formatting markup as we wanna have in final
<ochosi> no matter if it looks a bit off now
<jjfrv8> ok
<ochosi> what packages did you install to get the gtk theme?
<jjfrv8> you know what? I can't remember :(
<ochosi> hehe
<ochosi> no problem
<ochosi> i'll check what pkg you need
<ochosi> jjfrv8: you need the package gtk2-engines-xfce
<ochosi> that also installs the gtk-themes
<ochosi> so then we can stick to the rules of the xfce-docs (which i think is the easiest)
<ochosi> and you got the icon-theme, right?
<jjfrv8> No, I tried installing faenza, but that seemed to mess things up for some reason.
<jjfrv8> i could be wrong, but I don't think icons will matter for screenshots in Parole, will they?
<ochosi> not terribly
<jjfrv8> I was using Greybird for Appearance, Default for the WM style and a custom highlight color in Theme Configuration
<jjfrv8> I'll install the gtk2-engines-xfce package
<ochosi> ok great
<jjfrv8> just as a watchout for the other guys, I found that if you need to replace a screenshot, it's a pain...
<jjfrv8> you can't just upload another file and overwrite the previous one. It keeps using the first one you created.
<jjfrv8> You have to rename the file and change the reference in the source code to the new name. :(
<ochosi> jjfrv8: are you sure?
<ochosi> i mean, are you sure it's not just your browser tricking you?
<ochosi> try ctrl+shift+r e.g. in firefox
<ochosi> that clears the cache and reloads
<jjfrv8> Ok, I'll double-check that. But I actually removed the reference to the screenshot in the code, saved and viewed, then added it back, saved again, and it still displayed the old file.
<knome> if things do not go as expected, i might be slightly late for the meeting, but i will be here.
<pleia2> anyone about for the meeting?
<jjfrv8> o/
<slickymaster> o/
<pleia2> knome said he'd be slightly late
<knome> HAI
<elfy> hey ho pleia2 - here comes piskie :)
 * ochosi is kinda around
<pleia2> 8AM, boo
<knome> hehe
<elfy> :)
<knome> so,
<knome> #startmeeting Xubuntu community meeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Thu Oct 24 15:03:32 2013 UTC.  The chair is knome. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
<knome> #topic Items carried on
<slickymaster> it's the early bird whocatches the worm
<knome> #subtopic Open action items from previous meetings
<GridCube> Ã¸/
<knome> #action knome to prepare the website for the desktop of the week 
<meetingology> ACTION: knome to prepare the website for the desktop of the week
<GridCube> :) thanks
<knome> #info knome tries to have time for that latest next week
<knome> #action skellat to prepare blog article discussing updating & upgrading for users and why it is okay to do so 
<meetingology> ACTION: skellat to prepare blog article discussing updating & upgrading for users and why it is okay to do so
<knome> #nick skellat
<GridCube> #info GridCube will be ready whenever knome needs his asistance
<knome> that's it for the open action items
<GridCube> yes, i mean the desktop of the weeks thing
<GridCube> :)
<knome> let's postpone the strategy document review for a bit, we have more news about it
<GridCube> i tiped slow
<knome> #subtopic Ideas for using the project money
<knome> #info Discussion will continue on the mailing lists
<knome> #topic Team updates
<GridCube> i though we had agree to that already
<knome> partly, not wholly
<GridCube> ok
<knome> ok, everybody, is there any news?
<knome> (remember to use #action and #info)
<knome> i'm afk for 2mins
<GridCube> i've been tracking the reviews for xubuntu around
<GridCube> and watching the responses on the main channel
<elfy> #info  Planning for testing of LTS is moving on http://pad.ubuntu.com/SdHxBbkLTO
<GridCube> most reviews says that our desktop is "simple" and "minimalist"
<elfy> # Some input from -team on various aspects of that is required
<elfy> #info  Some input from -team on various aspects of that is required
<elfy> even
<pleia2> #info Published latest in "Xubuntu at" series: http://xubuntu.org/news/xubuntu-at-techs-for-a-cause-in-kansas-city/
<pleia2> #info If anyone else knows of people using Xubuntu in the wild, please send them my way :)
<knome> elfy, looks good
 * elfy saw the draft of that - nice :)
<knome> GridCube, for me, that sounds like what we are after - cool! we should add those reviews to the press page
<knome> GridCube, if you have a list of them, can you send it to the -devel ML?
<GridCube> ok
<knome> #info knome has still one "Xubuntu at..." -series mail QIP
<knome> WIP too
<knome> #action GridCube to send a list of Xubuntu reviews to the -devel mailing list
<meetingology> ACTION: GridCube to send a list of Xubuntu reviews to the -devel mailing list
<GridCube> knome, there is a few people that complains about that though
<knome> GridCube, let's discuss that in the "wrap-up saucy" bit. remind me...
<knome> any other updates?
<elfy> #info Elfy is half way through doing an QA Saucy roundup
<knome> elfy, you've kept yourself busy :)
<pleia2> indeed!
<elfy> :)
<elfy> on holiday apparently ... 
<pleia2> knome: mention edits to strat guide?
<knome> pleia2, i'll speak about that later :)
<elfy> knome pleia2 - I want to make more use of the xubuntu.org page for getting QA information out there - so a roundup seems like a good place to start
<knome> but yeah, i could
<pleia2> l
<pleia2> k
<knome> #info knome and pleia2 reviewed the strategy document a bit further...
<pleia2> elfy: great, we all should make more use of it
<knome> elfy, definitely1
<knome> ! too
<knome> #topic Annoucements
<knome> so,
<knome> as some of you acknowledge, this is my second and last term as the XPL within the extended term
<GridCube> :)
<knome> so that it doesn't come as a surprise, and the project can plan accordingly, i'm announcing it will stay at my last for now; to put it differently, i'm not seeking for another extension
<pleia2> :'(
<elfy> sad but unexpected 
<elfy> expected ... 
<knome> i will keep around though, for consulting and more, but i wish to focus on different things in the community for a change
<knome> and finally, i hope to get the community and the infrastructure in a good shape before i quit
<knome> my main goals for this cycle is to get at least one more contirbutor upload rights and to finalize the strategy document review so it can actually be helpful in the daily work
<pleia2> ++
<knome> other goals include, but are not limited to finalizing long-term projects, like getting some new apps uploaded and making logging/locking/shutting down consistent
<GridCube> :)
<GridCube> sounds good
<knome> anyway, there seems to be another announcement in the wiki:
<knome> #info skellat article about upgrading is in progress and can be found at lp:~skellat/+junk/UpgradingXubuntu 
<knome> since skellat isn't around, let's move on
<knome> #topic New and emerging items
<knome> #subtopic Strategy Document reviewing
<knome> so, as mentioned in the updates, me and pleia2 worked more with the SD
<pleia2> it was boring, knome caught me off guard as I was wrapping up work
<knome> ha!
<pleia2> :)
<knome> anyway, we were able to strip off all process-related stuff from the strategy document
<knome> what this means?
<knome> well, the processes are now listed in https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Processes
<knome> the goal is to make that separate from the strategy document and allow more flexibility and updating the process descriptions while we go
<pleia2> \o/
<pleia2> and hopefully with the shortening of the strategy document it'll be easier for folks to actually read
<knome> i also hope these could be more helpful for new contributors, specifically the release cycle process description
<knome> and that we could keep that updated, so when we start a new cycle, everybody knows what's going to happen
<knome> and yeah, to keep the strategy document shorter, and to the point
<knome> changing things in the strategy document shouldn't be easy, but after this last set of changes it *shouldn't* be easy.
<knome> err, first shouldn't -> isn't
<knome> basically, the SD should only describe what our long-term goals and core ideals are
 * pleia2 nods
<knome> describing how we plan a release isn't such a thing
<knome> #action knome to make sure latest draft for the new SD is available for everybody before next week
<meetingology> ACTION: knome to make sure latest draft for the new SD is available for everybody before next week
<GridCube> i would like it very much if we could get people who develops xfce to join us to review the SD
<GridCube> if our goals and theirs dont collide its well 
<GridCube> its not good
<knome> can you shed some light why do you think it would be beneficial?
<knome> after all, our SD says that something being xfce-related doesn't mean it should be automatically included in xubuntu, or by that nomination, be preferred over something else
<GridCube> well if they decide to go a road that we can not easily follow,or we decide to go a road that they dont wish to go (like just for example the mir issue) then we are going against the thing that makes us different
<GridCube> no ofcourse not
<knome> if they decide to do something we don't agree with, then we need to either rethink our mission or drop the component that is against our mission
<GridCube> as said, I, myself, think it would be nice to have someone upstream to review it and give their impressions
<GridCube> just that
<knome> while xubuntu is ubuntu with xfce, i personally do not think xubuntu is "the xfce OS", or that we should without constructive criticism and thought follow the way they are leading
<ochosi> i'm wondering whether the SD isn
<knome> i am not sure i see how it would be beneficial still
<ochosi> 't too xubuntu-specific and probably not too interesting for xfce devs
<GridCube> (i'd like to think xubuntu is not just one more of the xfce distros outhere but a very important one, i might be wrong ofcourse)
<knome> i'm pretty sure some of the xfce people disagree with some of our goals, or the means to reach them, or whether we have reached them or not
<GridCube> anyway, it was just a wish, lets move on
<knome> i think i'm also with ochosi on being not-too-interesting for them :)
<GridCube> i wouldnt hurt to ask
<knome> i suppose we could forward the SD to their development list once the rewrite is done
<GridCube> mmhm :)
<knome> (this last rewrite didn't really change anything re: xfce, just internal procedures and stuff)
<GridCube> i was thinking more about the whole gtk3 indicators issue
<knome> that's been discussed with them
<knome> and tbh, that's a non-SD related issue
<ochosi> yeah, and that's more a roadmap item 
<GridCube> but again, lets move on
<knome> (or it should be)
<knome> #subtopic Developer communication and coordination in IRC
<knome> ok, i just wanted to let you guys know that we *really* should use #xubuntu-devel for development discussion, not -offtopic
<knome> it keeps the development transparent and logged
<GridCube> alright, sounds fair
<knome> #info Use #xubuntu-devel for development discussions, not #xubuntu-offtopic (where you are of course encouraged to socialize with other developers)
<GridCube> can i note that we should not use -offtopic for devel things aswell
<knome> well that's what i said ;)
<GridCube> oh ahahaha i missreaded
<GridCube> i swapped the channels
<knome> heh.
<knome> #subtopic Translating the website, LP 797600
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 797600 in Xubuntu Website "Enable translations for the Xubuntu website" [Medium,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/797600
<knome> can't remember who set this agenda item up, but
<GridCube> olbi probably
<knome> anyway, the relevant comment: https://bugs.launchpad.net/xubuntu-website/+bug/797600/comments/6
<knome> pleia2, what do you think of that?
 * pleia2 reads
<knome> we would be able to do this without any translation plugins, and the text itself could be something that was useful for flyers and stuff as well.
<pleia2> seems messy
<pleia2> but possible
<knome> not really, as long as the languages are a subpage of a page
<knome> that's of course just one of the options
<knome> i was thinking that would also help the burden for translators short- AND long-term
<ochosi> can't we handle the translations via launchpad?
<knome> ochosi, website translations?
<knome> humm,
<ochosi> something like putting the source of xubuntu.org on lp
<knome> heh.
<knome> the problem is how to *handle* those translations
<knome> but that's another idea.
<ochosi> on the wordpress-side, you mean?
<knome> yep
<ochosi> right
<knome> i mean, even for this translate-one-page
<ochosi> well you're the wp-expert, i've never handled translateable installations ;)
<knome> we could create a simple plugin that loads a page and serves alternative languages from .po files
<knome> but that's somewhat fishy as well
<knome> let's see how i have time during the next cycle
<knome> maybe i might be able to finish off my translation plugin as well
<knome> #subtopic Wrap up the Saucy cycle; things we did well, areas to improve, postponing blueprints to T, ... 
<knome> so...
<knome> GridCube, people not liking xubuntu?
<knome> or thinking it's too simplistic...
<GridCube> yes
<GridCube> the reviews i've seen are a bit dissapointed with us
<GridCube> i understand that they have to show new shinny things and we dont provide that
<GridCube> and over that we even give away a desktop that has an obvious broken indicator issue
<knome> so what they are saying is that we didn't provide enough new features for them?
<ochosi> from what i read the broken sound-indicator is quite a bummer for most upgraders
<ochosi> (unsurprisingly)
<GridCube> knome, basically they say that there is no reason to install 13.10 whatsoever
<knome> the broken indicators situation sucks.
<GridCube> just wait for next LTS waht most of them say
<ochosi> and there are some logind/suspend issues
<knome> from my POV, we progressed more "behind the curtains" than in front of
<GridCube> knome, yes, i do understand that, im not saying not, as said they need to show new thingies to their readers
<GridCube> they could copy paste the review from 13.04 and it would still work
<brainwash> we have a new wallpaper, this is a major change!
<GridCube> yeah... 
<knome> heh, i read a review that said you can barely notice it unless you compare the two next to each other
<GridCube> not even a few wallapers to choose
<knome> that's highly subjective though
<brainwash> the average xubuntu/xfce user does not like fancy changes anyway, things should simply work
<GridCube> yeah well, also some said that basic xubuntu needs about 500mb of ram with nothing open
<pleia2> speaking of reviews, can you pleia2: me when you find one? http://xubuntu.org/press/ doesn't have many at the moment
<knome> brainwash, that's a dangerous generalisation to make
<knome> brainwash, probably more true with xfce users, but i don't know about xubuntu users
<GridCube> pleia2, i've been pasting some on -offtopic
<GridCube> but sure
<knome> so;
<pleia2> GridCube: I can't read full backlogs of that channel, so highlight here is appreciated
<GridCube> :D
<GridCube> most of them did say that our system almost never crash and its fast
<knome> pleia2, i understand, it's icky enough that most of us can't
<ochosi> sorry folks, gotta go, have a goo drest of a meeting
<knome> 1) we need to get the fixed indicator stack in the backports soon
<knome> 2) people want new features, but we didn't provide them those; we will with 14.04
<GridCube> :)
<knome> i think the indicator stack issue is one of the things where we could've done better
<knome> releasing with them was a decision taken, not an accident though
 * GridCube wasnt really involved to notice how broken that was
<elfy> knome: not sure how - it was down to time for the few that could do anything 
<knome> it was known for a long time, but fixing it in a way or other wasn't trivial
<elfy> indeed
<knome> elfy, i suppose we should've asked for more external support and/or generally just going for the gtk3 stack because we "need" that for 14.04 anyway
<elfy> possibly - I don't know enough about the ramifications of that to comment :)
<knome> and a lot of that discussion could have happened earlier in the cycle, even/especially amongst those who couldn't do the final heavy lifting
<knome> and that might've given the people who were able to do the heavy lifting more time to do it
<knome> anyway, i think it was a good cycle community-wise
<elfy> as far as I know it was being discussed in here almost as soon as it showed up
<knome> and as i said, more things seemed to happen behind the curtains than in front of
<elfy> yea definitely
<knome> elfy, the gtk3 indicator stack was a possible direction at the beginning of the cycle, though at that point it wasn't as clear how broken the gtk2 indicators would've been (but maybe we would've found out...)
<knome> and - congrats to everybody who contributed
<GridCube> the overall status of xubuntu is impressive, if i can say, i mean besides the gtk3 indicators i dont think there is a single complain that is not subjetive
<knome> 13.10 is a good stepping stone for 14.04, which will be, i'm sure, the best xubuntu LTS out there
<elfy> :)
<GridCube> ;D
<elfy> it's be tested - that's for sure :p
<knome> that too!
<knome> the agenda has a mention of postponing blueprints/work items for T, but we'll do that later
<knome> Unit193, you around?
<knome> #subtopic Xubuntu Core (or xubuntu-core)
<knome> i'm thinking we should carry on this item for the next meeting
<elfy> I agree with that
<GridCube> third
<knome> #subtopic Schedule next meeting
<GridCube> o/ 
<knome> GridCube, oi?
<GridCube> i want to ask something for 14.04
<GridCube> i've read on a review this; 
<GridCube> xfce4-power-manager-plugins is not installed by default, and in 13.10 is now hidden under technical items in the software center.
<GridCube> This means that the users who can't get their brightness buttons working have to know all of that as well as how to add the brightness manager to the panel to see it at all. That is unacceptable for a newbie to linux.
<knome> i don't know enough of that to say this or that
<GridCube> i've heard a lot of people comming to the channel to ask about brightness and this is the first time i've learned that xfce has a tool for it
<knome> we need to look at it
<GridCube> i would like this to be investigated
<GridCube> :) yes
<knome> can you add that to the roadmap page in the discussion?
<knome> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Roadmap
<GridCube> in lpÂ¿
<GridCube> ok yes
<knome> thanks
<knome> so, next week is the end of brainstorming
<knome> we should discuss the roadmap then, so let's schedule a meeting for next week
<knome> #info Next Xubuntu community meeting: Thu, Oct 31st, 15UTC at #xubuntu-devel
<knome> #endmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting ended Thu Oct 24 15:58:44 2013 UTC.  
<meetingology> Minutes (wiki):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/xubuntu-devel/2013/xubuntu-devel.2013-10-24-15.03.moin.txt
<meetingology> Minutes (html):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/xubuntu-devel/2013/xubuntu-devel.2013-10-24-15.03.html
<knome> thanks
<knome> i'll add the minutes in the wiki later today
<elfy> thanks knome 
<elfy> and everyone else too :)
<elfy> biab
<GridCube> done knome 
<knome> ta
<GridCube> Ã¸\
<pleia2> thanks knome 
<knome> ok, i'm off again
<knome> see you later
<jjfrv8> ochosi, I'll be back around 22UTC tonight and then back tomorrow around 12.
<jjfrv8> I think Preferences is pretty much ready for review - except for one bug I have to discuss with bluesabre.
<jjfrv8> I don't think I'm qualified to do the Introduction so the only one left is Usage. I can move onto that but don't want to conflict with efly or slickymaster 
<slickymaster> jjfrv8: I'm wrapping up the Command-line Options, I think I'll have finished later on
<jjfrv8> cool
<slickymaster> jjfrv8: but I don't know if elfy is going to pick up on Usage or not
<jjfrv8> bbl
<elfy> slickymaster: doubt it - or not any time soon - still catching up with myself
<slickymaster> elfy: np. If jjfrv8 is unable to do it, I'll do it.
<elfy> ok - thanks :)
<slickymaster> ochosi: http://smdavis.us/doku/doku.php?id=command-line ready for review. Ping me if you want/think that there's any changes need to be done
<brainwash> ali1234: your terminal package works
<brainwash> ali1234: what's the deal with 1.2?
<ali1234> brainwash: well, i uploaded it as ubuntu2 the first time
<ali1234> then i rad you're not supposed to number it that way so i changed it to 1.1
<ali1234> but i didn't change it everywhere
<ali1234> so then i deleted the 1.1 and tried to upload it again but fixed but this is not allowed
<ali1234> so i had to bump it to 1.2
<brainwash> I see =S
<brainwash> the fix works, the package works, everything seems ok
<Unit193> knome: Now that I've read backlog, pretty much yes. :P
<elfy> pleia2 knome - when you've got time can one of you look at the draft qa roundup I did for the blog
<Unit193> andrzejr: I take it you haven't contacted the Ubuntu desktop team about actually releasing what's being used in Ubuntu as far as indicators?
<knome> andrzejr, we really want the gtk3 indicator stuff in 14.04, if you need any help with organizing anything, please ask us
<Unit193> knome: Hello, I ponged but it was too late. :P
<knome> Unit193, yeah, np. was just wondering if you wanted to lead the discussion or not.
<Unit193> Not really. :P
<knome> well clearly not, you hid until the meeting ended! :P
<Unit193> It'd be nice if whoever does actually knew what they were talking about though.  So I still see it as something to install from the mini iso, is this wrong?  It changes how it's made if you use some sort of black magic to get it in Ubiquity.
<Unit193> Found a good hiding place, what can I say?
<slickymaster> good night all
<knome> heh. yeah.
<knome> hey slickymaster 
<slickymaster> hi knome 
<elfy> knome: looks ok - but I'm not sure about a beer tasting of gooseberries
<Unit193> knome: Please to speak about goals on that?
<Unit193> knome: And one thing that'd help ^ is actually having Ubuntu *release* the NG indicator stuff, right now Ubuntu is basically rolling from git and hogging it to itself. :P
<andrzejr> knome, any particular requests for the indicator plugin?
<knome> andrzejr, as long as it works...
<knome> andrzejr, i can't speak of the technical side, you should be in touch with ochosi, bluesabre and micahg on that
<xnox> Unit193: what's your question?
<andrzejr> knome, ok
<elfy> Unit193: I've got to say - I imagined the core being something to install via mini iso 
<Unit193> xnox: Hmmm?  I had a couple questions, but wasn't trying to ping you (yet)
<xnox> Unit193: re: "It'd be nice if whoever does actually knew what they were talking about though.  So I still see it as something to install from the mini iso, is this wrong?  It changes how it's made if you use some sort of black magic to get it in Ubiquity."
<xnox> Unit193: i have highlights on "ubiquity"
<knome> xnox, speaking about a "xubuntu-core" metapackage, but we're undecided yet.
<Unit193> Yeah, figured that.  It's nothing yet, didn't mean to ping.  We're looking at a xubuntu-core thing and I'm not quit sure the target. :)
<andrzejr> knome, the biggest problem at the moment is that the plugin depends on xfce4-panel from my private git branch. Nick promised to merge the changes but until it is done we should not assume the panel will support mixed gtk2 and gtk3 plugins.
<xnox> Unit193: installing from netboot, mini.iso, server.iso, desktop.iso is all valid methods. To be honest it doesn't matter how one installs. If one installs xubuntu-desktop, one gets xubuntu experience. One may need to adjust alternatives/themes if one installs multiple.
<Unit193> xnox: The things I meant to ping you about, no chance of shipping a /usr/share/pixmaps/ubiquity.xpm and /usr/share/menu/ubiquity, right?
<knome> andrzejr, yep, we definitely need to be in touch with nick as well
<xnox> knome: "xubuntu-core" might make sense as a seed one includes, given that there are multiple flavours basing on top off xubuntu. E.g. common bits between Studio and Xubuntu can be placed into xubuntu-core, or "xfce-core"
<Unit193> xnox: There really is a difference though, if you install using apt-get, you will pull in a ton of useless deps because you don't get the nice blacklist, so you rather have to install without recommends.
<xnox> knome: e.g. edubuntu has a few seeds - for core stuff, for server and desktop.
<knome> xnox, that's not exactly what we are after, but... that's a valid point i suppose
<knome> xnox, would be probably more like the edubuntu stuff, without thinking what ubuntu studio wants too much
<xnox> knome: Unit193: oh I see. So in edubuntu they have: edubuntu-desktop for the "core" stuff and then additional components via "edubuntu-desktop-physics", -math, -education, etc.... since not everyone would want everything.
<xnox> and then some e.g. install edubuntu + edubuntu-physics, or edubuntu & -whatever.
<knome> xnox, a bit like that, but reverse; the usual installed component would be -desktop, and those who want a minimal installation could install just -core instead
<xnox> knome: boot edubuntu installer, it's quite different from other flavours. And let's one to add/remove components.
<knome> (which would still ship a usable desktop, but with less stuff)
<knome> xnox, yeah, i've seen that
<knome> xnox, i believe that's what ubuntu studio wants actually
<xnox> knome: quite, so you might customize / fork edubuntu ubiquity plugin to select component & default to -desktop and optionally remove / fallback to -core only.
<xnox> knome: right, i might put them that way.
<knome> that, or the other option is that it's just a metapackage that's installable from the minimal iso, for those who know what they are doing.
<xnox> knome: if you do split -core and -desktop, a small tweak will be needed to make it "top-level" metapage and then e.g. netbook / minimal.iso can offer Xubuntu Core & Xubuntu Full.
<knome> mhm
<xnox> knome: right, that should be fine as well.
<knome> that's what we're pondering now
<xnox> knome: or we can even spin Core images which might even fit on a smaller CD / bussiness-card cd.
<xnox> knome: well you do need to start with splitting what's core and what's desktop. and then add it to seeds branch (but not -meta package) and look at the germinate output to see how big the difference is.
<xnox> At that point, you might add it as a package in your -meta and then figure out if you want to ship it on images and how.
<knome> xnox, yyyyep.
<xnox> Cause e.g. if -core ends up being 100MB you might go for mini.iso, if it ends up 400MB you might would want to roll a desktop.iso
<knome> we most probably do not want another ISO
<knome> and i doubt -core would end up being 100MB either..
<Unit193> Not in my tests, no. :/
<knome> or generally either
<xnox> ok. then your -desktop will need to be a strict supper-set of core, or ship the extra packages that are in -core and not in -desktop on the cdrom pool/
<knome> after all, we want to make it a usable desktop
<xnox> cause e.g. ubiquity livefs does _not_ have oem-config. it gets installed from the package pool on the cd when needed ;-)
<xnox> knome: i remember puppy-linux was a <<30MB usable graphical desktop.
<knome> well, the oem config didn't work for us when we last tested it, so... :P
<knome> but we share the ubuntu core. not possible...
<Unit193> xnox: But yeah, any chance of getting /usr/share/pixmaps/ubiquity.xpm and /usr/share/menu/ubiquity in ubiquity-frontend-gtk or somesuch?
<xnox> knome: ok, that was just an example. E.g. ndiswrapper is a .deb in the cdrom package pool and is not actually installed by default, but it is available of the desktop CD.
<knome> i mean, i wouldn't mind, but...
<xnox> Unit193: yeah easy, just do a merge proposal against lp:ubiquity
<xnox> Unit193: and i'll take it.
<knome> Unit193, \o/
<Unit193> xnox: Fantastic!  Got a default image I can/should convert rather than ask ochosi for one? :P
 * xnox just assumes that nobody cares about .xpm & menu's anymore. If xubuntu does then fine.
<Unit193> It generally slips my mind too, unless something breaks.
<xnox> Unit193: it should be the ubiquity.svg as it's in the branch and/or ubuntu-default theme. It's quite generic "instlaler" looking icon.
<Unit193> Cool.
<Unit193> (Trick is doing it without breaking something.)
<xnox> Unit193: http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-branches/ubuntu/trusty/humanity-icon-theme/trusty/view/head:/Humanity/apps/48/ubiquity.svg
<xnox> Unit193: that's ubiquity icon to use as source.
<Unit193> Great, will do.
<xnox> Unit193: i think it might be in ubiqutiy source, it's best if you add debian/rules which takes ubiquity.svg and converts to .xmp at build time.
<Unit193> ./data/icons/32x32/apps/ubiquity.svg ?
<Unit193> (I'd use 32 as Debian menu policy wants that.)
<xnox> Unit193: yeap /data/ubiquity.svg
<Unit193> Right, my bad.
<xnox> Unit193: .svg is actually size indepenant, but xmp does need size specified.
<xnox> Unit193: 32x32 looks ugly =) so I tend to do bigger than that ;-)
<knome> xpm too.
<Unit193> xnox: Understandable, and I could technically do that, but I was going to just try and follow policy. :P
<Unit193> xnox: Hrm, not sure how best to handle the menu file...  data/Makefile.am is designed for .desktop files and /usr/share/applications/  Icon is a simple imagemagick convert.
<xnox> Unit193: usually people just write menu file by hand
<xnox> Unit193: and it can be installed by debian/ubiquity-frontend-gtk.install
<xnox> Unit193: or better by dh_installmenu
<xnox> Unit193: see $ man dh_installmenu
<Unit193> xnox: Ah, wasn't sure if you wanted the RELEASE var.
<xnox> Unit193: call it ubiquity without RELEASE for now.
<Unit193> xnox: You mean Ubuntu? ;)
<xnox> Unit193: RELEASE substitution happens on cdimage during image build, and placed on the desktop.
<Unit193> Ah.
<xnox> Unit193: and we are not putting menu file on the desktop.
<xnox> Unit193: use something genering like "Ubuntu Installer" or "Ubiquity Installer"
<Unit193> Gotcha.
<Unit193> xnox: And just to confirm, you don't want to install with 'ubiquity' and have ubiquity itself figure out gtk_ui or not?
<xnox> Unit193: huh, no. it needs to be installed as "ubiquity" menu item xmp in the "ubiquity-frontend-gtk" package.
<xnox> Unit193: we are not going to use menu items on kde, and it will need a different one anyhow.
<Unit193> Man, there's not a good way to test this...
<Noskcaj> My comments to the meeting: 1. I'll try and get motu or xubuntu-dev next month, assuming people think i'm ready. 2. Xubuntu is definately using too much memory, thunar, xchat and bluetooth are the ones i've seen. 3. We did well in saucy minus the indicator issue. We really need to fix that this month so we've got plenty of time to fix all that. 
<brainwash> the printer-applet uses much memory too
<brainwash> and it's not even visible anymore, or?
<Noskcaj> brainwash: Open the task manager and see how much blueman has. before i disabled it, it said 40mb and i had never used bluetooth
<brainwash> it's not even installed anymore
<brainwash> got rid of it long long time ago
<Unit193> xnox: Back from food, http://paste.openstack.org/show/49580/ look sane?  I can't build it so not as tested as I'd like, it may not be doing what I want.
<xnox> Unit193: why can you not build it?
<xnox> Unit193: no that looks wrong. build-depends are generated from a script in d-i/ folder something like "update-control" i think.
<xnox> $ mk-sbuild trusty
<xnox> $ change into it, apt-get source ubiquity
<xnox> apply patch and do a debuild
 * skellat is not amused he missed the meeting earlier today due to having to orchestrate getting an automobile fixed...and assumes it wasn't what was meant in "service orchestration" in those Juju talks...
<Unit193> Well if we assume the [18:48:16] < xnox> Unit193: no that looks wrong. build-depends are generated from a script in d-i/ folder something like "update-control" i think.
<Unit193> Bah, lag.  If we assume that works, this builds then.
#xubuntu-devel 2013-10-25
<Unit193> xnox: OK, submitted proposal, try not to pull out too much hair.  http://i3.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/234/137/5c4.jpg
<bluesabre> jjfrv8: what bug is it?
<bluesabre> the "check and remove duplicate media entries"?
<bluesabre> I'll have a look at that this weekend
<bluesabre> btw, thanks to you and anyone else who has contributed to this documentation
<bluesabre> ochosi: created an introduction page for parole-docs, feel free to criticise :)
<Noskcaj> Has anyone got time to review https://code.launchpad.net/~noskcaj/ubuntu/trusty/xfce4-session/4.10.1-3 ?
<slickymaster> morning all
<slickymaster> ochosi: ping
<brainwash> ali1234: you still need to add a comment about your xfce4-terminal package to the bug report.. or isn't the package ready yet?
<brainwash> oh great, the not working updata-manager restart button has been fixed.. in trusty
<jjfrv8> bluesabre, yes the bug I was referring to for the Preferences section is the "check and remove duplicate" thing.
<jjfrv8> I've tried hitting it from several angles and it just doesn't seem to work for me. Maybe I'm missing something.
<jjfrv8> bluesabre, as for the dvd issues, I first have to use Unit193's workaround "sudo ln -s cdrom /dev/dvd" to get them to read at all...
<jjfrv8> then when I try to play a store-bought, encrypted dvd I get "GStreamer backend error. The stream is in the wrong format."
<jjfrv8> I do have libdvdcss2 installed but I'm not sure about all the other pre-reqs you have listed on your blog.
<jjfrv8> I have different issues with a homemade dvd with chapters, but that's a little complicated to explain here. I guess we'll hold off on that one for now.
<jjfrv8> maybe catch up with you this weekend. bye for now.
<slickymaster> jjfrv8: ping
<jjfrv8-work> slickymaster, you still here?
<slickymaster> jjfrv8-work: yes :)
<jjfrv8-work> 'sup?
<slickymaster> jjfrv8-work: just wanted to tell you that I've talked yesterday with elfy, regarding http://smdavis.us/doku/doku.php?id=usage and is unable to do it. So, if you want, I can do it
<jjfrv8-work> That's fine with me.  Or if you want to split it up somehow by menu selection, I'm okay with that too.
<slickymaster> jjfrv8-work: that's a good idea. As there are six menu items, we can dived them
<jjfrv8-work> Okay, I'll give you first choice :)
<slickymaster> jjfrv8-work: It's indifferent :). Alright, I'll take Media, Playback and Audio
<slickymaster> jjfrv8-work: That leaves you with Video, Tools and Help
<jjfrv8-work> That'll work.
<jjfrv8-work> So what shall we do, draft it up on the playground and then copy and past them after they pass review?
<knome> cool, productive sounding stuff :)
<slickymaster> jjfrv8-work: just one thing, I'm planning on inserting some screenshots but I'm not sure if that's alright or not. Do you know if it's supposed to, or not?
<jjfrv8-work> I assume so. That's what I did for Preferences and that was following the example of the Xfce Terminal sample.
<slickymaster> jjfrv8-work: thanks, that's all I needed to know
<jjfrv8-work> slickymaster, thank you and happy drafting!
<jjfrv8-work> bbl
<slickymaster> knome: ping
<knome> slickymaster, pong
<slickymaster> knome: I'm not sure whether you'll be able to anwser me or not, anyway here it goes
<knome> sure
<slickymaster> knome: I'm working on http://smdavis.us/doku/doku.php?id=parole-docs and I'm planning on inserting some screenshots on the http://smdavis.us/doku/doku.php?id=usage section
<slickymaster> knome: so, my question is do you have any idea of the sizes I should use?
<slickymaster> knome: for the screenshots :)
<knome> slickymaster, check the xfce wiki
<knome> slickymaster, but i would imagine as small as possible but 1:1 is preferred
<slickymaster> knome: I'll do that and I'll take your suggestion
<slickymaster> knome: always with a helping hand. I appreciate it
<knome> but of course :)
<slickymaster> knome: as I have here, allow me to ask you something else
<knome> yup
<slickymaster> knome: I'm on the verge of finishing the xubuntu-docs translation (I've almost 70% done), when I'll finish do I have to make a merge porposal?
<knome> nope
<knome> the translations are updated automatically to the branch
<slickymaster> knome: thanks. I won't bother anymore
<slickymaster> for now, that is ;)
<knome> np, and have fun
<slickymaster> always
<knome> bbl
<Unit193> jjfrv8: Yeah, I had/have libdvdcss and everything else needed to play dvds.
<bluesabre> jjfrv8: yeah, I'm not sure what the issue is, but dvd support in 13.10 seems to be completely messed up
<bluesabre> it works completely fine in 13.04, so I think i can avoid blame... :)
<knome> you can't
<knome> ;)
<bluesabre> drat!
<brainwash> what is wrong with dvd support?
<jjfrv8> bluesabre, bummer. I'll go ahead and install 13.04 then and use that for working through the docs.
<Unit193> I don't know, Works for meâ¢ (Well, as much as any videos do, so meh.)
<Unit193> The Lost World works for me at least, just tried it.  VLC and mplayer.
<brainwash> and parole?
<Unit193> Purged a while ago.
<brainwash> parole isn't that bad
<brainwash> does not deserve to be purged
<Unit193> Heh.
<brainwash> finally some fixes will be released, the update-manager restart button gets fixed and somewhat "soon" the xfce4-terminal encoding menu segfault
<Unit193> Never tried to use gstreamer to play something directly, not sure if you can.
<Unit193> Ah, that's good.
<brainwash> but yeah, pushing fixes before final release is way more easier than afterwards
<brainwash> some things will be even delayed until 14.04 I assume
#xubuntu-devel 2013-10-26
<Unit193> Still hope for one backport, and I'm planning to backport something for myself.
<jjfrv8> bluesabre, I'm not having any better luck with 13.04. I'm thinking I might not have the correct versions of all the build requirements.
<bluesabre> do you have make sure you have the bad and ugly plugins installed, and possible gstreamer0.10-ffmpeg
<jjfrv8> just to rule out my hardware as being the problem, I downgraded to Parole 0.5.0 and it played the encryped dvd fine.
<bluesabre> ah
<bluesabre> thats interesting
<bluesabre> :\
<jjfrv8> but I tried searching synaptice for the build requirement versions you have listed on your blog and I can't find exact matches for some of them.
<jjfrv8> *synaptic
<Unit193> If nothing in the build-reqs changed, apt-get build-dep parole
<bluesabre> parole-0.5.90 is also in the xfce-4.12 ppa
<bluesabre> but if it builds, that shouldn't be a problem
<bluesabre> what gstreamer version are you using with 0.5.90?
<jjfrv8> Just a sec. I'll have to reboot to my saucy image.
<bluesabre> K
<jjfrv8> which package should I be looking at? a search for gstreamer in synaptic lists a bunch.
<Unit193> plugins bad, ugly, and maybe ffmpeg.  version 0.10.
<jjfrv8> ffmpeg is 0.10.13-5, ugly is 1.2.0-1, bad is 0.10.21-1ubuntu1
<Unit193> ugly looks like it has the dvd components.
<Noskcaj> Does anyone here have a fresh install of xubuntu trusty? if so, can you run sudo apt-get remove --purge python2.7 then cancel the command. I'm trying to see what we have that still needs porting to python3
<bluesabre> parole --gst-version
<bluesabre> jjfrv8 ^
<jjfrv8> gstreamer core library version 1.2.0
<bluesabre> try installing gstreamer1.0-libav 
<jjfrv8> k
<jjfrv8> says it's already the newest version
<bluesabre> ok
<bluesabre> this is probably overkill, but here's my gst1.0 installation: http://dpaste.com/1429797/
<bluesabre> things like clutter and crystalhd you probably don't need
<jjfrv8> alright, let me check them all off.
<jjfrv8> wait, I'm working on saucy. you say you've got problems with that too, right?
<bluesabre> I'm working on raring now because I have dvd issues with saucy
<bluesabre> I believe totem does not work with dvds in saucy either
<jjfrv8> okay, let me boot back over to raring and I'll re-install from your ppa and then run through all the gstreamer stuff in your list.
<bluesabre> nobody tests it because everyone just installs vlc
<bluesabre> :D
<Unit193> bluesabre: Want to know if stock parole works with DVDs on saucy?
<jjfrv8> why doesn't synaptic sort alphabetically? :(
<bluesabre> Unit193: sure, let me know.  Last time I checked it was full of fail
<jjfrv8> bluesabre, same problem after installing all the gstreamer stuff; i.e., "GStreamer backend error. The stream is in the wrong format."
<bluesabre> :(
<bluesabre> It would be nice if gstreamer provided more information
<jjfrv8> I can paste the output showing when I run it from the terminal. Might take me a minute.
<Unit193> bluesabre: Well, it kind of half works at times.
<bluesabre> if parole 0.5 was working for you, try compiling with --with-gstreamer=0.10
<jjfrv8> bluesabre, imagebin.org/274775
<Unit193> Heh, codec installer works.
<bluesabre> thats the normal stuff that is displayed when a dvd is actually working
<Unit193> Alright, parole was able to play McLintock, but that's not encrypted (might be region free?)  System is having problems with a normal one.
<Unit193> Yep, unregioned.
<jjfrv8> bluesabre, thanks. I'll check back in tomorrow.
<jhenke> hi guys, does somebody know how to update my xubuntu+1 vm to trusty? when I try update-manager -d I get some 404s for parts of the archive and it refuses to upgrade
<Noskcaj> jhenke, Manually changing the sources.list file works best usually
<knome> jhenke, there isn't really much of "trusty" around yet.
<jhenke> knome I know, still it is interesting (at least for me) to follow the development
<jhenke> and I hope that at some point in the velopment cycle the problems with the hyper_fb module will be fixed (I read something about the patch will get merged in the 3.13 kernel)
<jhenke> and I want to test that once the kernel lands in trusty
<forestpiskie> jhenke: it's usually the partner repos that lag behind everything try commenting those and you should be able to at least apt-get update
<forestpiskie> I'll just boot mine up and grab it's sources.list
<jhenke> I know, still I prefer the "offical" way ;)
<jhenke> but for the moment i stelled
<jhenke> I'll try it at a later stage again with update-manager
<Unit193> I've done a couple real systemd upgrades the Debian way, worked fine.
<forestpiskie> jhenke: good luck getting partner repos to work then :)
<Unit193> The Saucy ones aren't even fully up.
<jhenke> the good thing about VMs you can easily drop them and start again with an earlier state ;), thanks let's see how it develops
<bluesabre> so, looking for some opinions...
<bluesabre> "check and remove duplicate media entries", should that remove media entries that are already in the playlist when adding the same item later in the playlist?
<brainwash> bluesabre: bug 1227637 is still haunting me :(
<ubottu> bug 1227637 in xubuntu-default-settings (Ubuntu) "non existing key specified in override file" [Low,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1227637
<bluesabre> lol
<bluesabre> if my patch ever gets accepted, it would be easy to add
<brainwash> I told myself to no fix it manually and wait for the patched package.. :P
<bluesabre> I'll try to get my xubuntu developer application done this weekend so that I can get upload rights to things like that in the near future
<brainwash> sounds great :)
<jjfrv8> bluesabre, as for the duplicate media entry thing, that's the way I thought it should work. Is it true that it's not set to work that way now?
<forestpiskie> bluesabre: I'd agree - if I had something set to 'check and remove duplicates' I'd expect it to remove duplicates even if I was adding one then
<bluesabre> the code seems to not do anything at the moment, I am adding the relevant code now
<jjfrv8> slickymaster, I had another thought about the Usage section of the Parole docs after yesterday.
<jjfrv8> Instead of just jumping right into the individual menu entries, I thought we should had a little overview and then have links to for the menu items, instead of one big page.
<jjfrv8> here's a draft of such a page: http://smdavis.us/doku/doku.php?id=playground:playground
<jjfrv8> bluesabre, ochosi if you could also take a look at it and give us your opinion. I'm not sure if marking up a screen shot violates the xfce guidelines or not.
<bluesabre> ochosi would know better than me
<jjfrv8> bluesabre, it also seems that I can't create a new namespace on the wiki so there's only one playground for me and slickymaster to draft on.
<jjfrv8> I can create a namespace for screenshot files but not wiki pages.
<bluesabre> jjfrv8: you're now an admin
<bluesabre> I'm not too familiar with dokuwiki, so if you know what to do, you've got full power :)
<jjfrv8> uh oh.
<bluesabre> haha
<jjfrv8> I was logged in and it bounced me off and now it won't take my creds when I try to log back in.
<bluesabre> ah
<bluesabre> :\
<jjfrv8> oh wait, it sent me an e-mail
<jjfrv8> ok, I think we're good. I'm back in and see "Admin" by my name.
<bluesabre> good deal
<jjfrv8> I'll try to really mess things up after lunch :)
<bluesabre> yay cleanup times
<bluesabre> :D
<bluesabre> just fixed remove-duplicates in git-master, in case you want to check it out
<bluesabre> I'll probably be gone most of the day, but leave any questions and I'll respond when I get back
<GridCube> i added a new item to the roadmap under new ideas, i found this http://www.webupd8.org/2013/03/install-pulseaudio-with-built-in-system.html and i though it would be very useful to improve our desktop
<GridCube> as i say in the roadmap page maybe ubuntustudio will be interested on helping on that?
<holstein> GridCube: maybe.. we actually deal mostly with JACK
 * holstein loads up link..
<holstein> GridCube: im against a system-wide EQ by default
<holstein> we would have EQ available via JACK.. are you interested in having that in stock xubuntu?
<GridCube> i'm usually lost with JACK, i cant figure how to set it up to stream one thing to one output and other thing to a different like i do simply in pavucontrol
<holstein> no doubt, JACK is overkill, if you dont need it specifically
<Unit193> Jack just seems like overkill for me, so I never have used it.
<GridCube> so i only use it for internet radio streaming
<Unit193> holstein: Jack has lower latency right?
<holstein> Unit193: actually, i find it depends.. there are scenarios where the overhead of JACK is not necessary and i get "better" perforance without it.. but for routing multiple things multiple places at low latency, it cant be beat
<GridCube> holstein, even if its not enabled, it would be pretty nice to have the option, because music programs usually lack the equalizers
<GridCube> like a tick box that says "enable system wide equalizer"
<holstein> GridCube: as a creator of content, i dont necessarily want the user to have EQ controls
<GridCube> he
<holstein> GridCube: i talked to a chef once who said he found it insulting that salt was offered on the table ;)
<GridCube> good point
<holstein> GridCube: but, i usually use VLC as a causual player, which has EQ
<GridCube> although giving more options is always a good thing
<holstein> well, not sure if i agree with "always"
<GridCube> else why would radios have real equalizers then? shouldnt they just play the tapes as they get them? ;)
<holstein> it shouldnt, theoritically, hurt anything to offer it
<GridCube> its just an idea, im trying to find stuff that we could add to our desktop that would be "shiny" but at the same time useful and not too paradigm shifting
<holstein> GridCube: if you had seen a singer using my amp the other day, you might reconsider giving any casual user another knob to turn ;)
<holstein> GridCube: i'll help test it or whatever..
<GridCube> so our next reviews will be people saying "wow look at this!"
<GridCube> P:
<holstein> or, "crap, more clutter"
<holstein> but, you cant please everyone...
<GridCube> i never understood the idea of clutter 
<GridCube> i mean if you tick the box that says "enable eq" and then you get a whole new tab with a whole lot of things, but if you dont then you dont
<holstein> yup.. thats nice
<holstein> GridCube: is that the way it is?
<GridCube> mmmmm i dont know
<GridCube> i think its just a stand alone program
<holstein> might add some latency to our set up.. or break the jack pulse bridge
<GridCube> holstein, :) thanks for thinking about it
<holstein> GridCube: sure.. i'll load it up somewhere and kick the tires if you want
<holstein> GridCube: it comes up.. an "easy eq" query for ubuntustudio
<holstein> anything that starts with "well, you fire up JACK" as a barrier of entry that is overkill for the casual user
<jjfrv8> slickymaster, to build on today's earlier discussion ^, I've created some new namespaces on the wiki...
<jjfrv8> I've created sub-namespaces under playground for you and me so we can work on drafts without locking each other out...
<jjfrv8> If you click on the Sitemap link at the top of the page, you will find them under "playground"...
<jjfrv8> I would suggest that you use yours to create the pages for your menu items.
<jjfrv8> I also created some namespaces for the screenshot uploads. You can find them when you click on the Media Manager link.
<jjfrv8> I propose that we put our screenshots for the menu items under root->wiki->usage-menu-items.
<jjfrv8> I did not mess with your access control so I hope you have enough rights to do everything you need. Let me or bluesabre know if not.
#xubuntu-devel 2013-10-27
<brainwash> did anyone notice the behavior described in bug 1243837 ?
<ubottu> bug 1243837 in xfce4 (Ubuntu) "Restart in the main menu does a logout instead" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1243837
<elfy> not seen it 
<jjfrv8> bluesabre, the playlist remove duplicates setting works well in latest build :)
<bluesabre> jjfrv8, great to hear; I'll make sure to do another dev release soon
<bluesabre> today I'm working on rearranging the home, so I'll be off and on
<jjfrv8> bluesabre, good luck with that ^ :D
<Mapley> Question for the devs -
<Mapley> How did you set a mouse cursor theme for LightDM?
<Mapley> That is, with the GTK greeter.
<Mapley> Oh, I see. /usr/share/icons/default/index.theme inherits DMZ-Black. Disregard that!
<Mapley> s/Black/White/
<ochosi> jjfrv8, bluesabre: that's great progress on the parole-docs!
<ochosi> about the screenshot stuff, i'm not sure, but i'd want *at least* the screeners in the parole-docs to be consistent
<bluesabre> xfce docs have to use a certain theme, right?
<ochosi> so if they're not the same as the rest (because e.g. the xfce-engine doesn't support a nice styling of the overlay-playback-controls, then we should at least have one gtk/icon-theme that *we* stick to)
<bluesabre> (gtk-theme)
<ochosi> yes, also faenza as icon-theme
<ochosi> that part should work fine (faenza should have most icons that we need â apart from face-sick)
<ochosi> the xfce docs uise the xfce gtk-theme and the faenza icon-theme
<ochosi> but i think as parole isn't part of -core, it's not a huge problem if we do things a little differently
<jjfrv8> ochosi, ok, I'll make sure I use the gtk-theme and the faenza icons. Is there an official version of faenza? I don't see them in the repository. 
<jjfrv8> I went to xfce.org to get some, but they don't seem to be complete. Lot of missing icons. Not on Parole,though.
<jjfrv8> They just look slightly different on Parole's menu items.
<jjfrv8> slickymaster, let's make sure we use them on the screenshots we do when we get to the menu items.
<Noskcaj> jjfrv8, No one's bothered to sponsor faenza in debian, i think there are two versions packaged
<jjfrv8> Noskcaj, where are those versions? Do you happen to know which one Xfce prefers?
<Noskcaj> not really, i'll try and find some info
<jjfrv8> thanks. bbl.
<Noskcaj> xfce probably prefers faenza-xfce, custom made by ochosi 
<Noskcaj> oops, i pinged him
<Noskcaj> The git for the packaging is at https://github.com/rbrito/pkg-faenza-icon-theme
<Noskcaj> I wonder if micah or lionel could try and get it uploaded straight to ubuntu
<ochosi> jjfrv8: just use the latest version of faenza you can find, e.g. in the launchpad repo
<ochosi> no need for faenza-xfce, it was just an addon but most of it was merged into faenza itself by now
<knome> good evening
<Noskcaj> morning knome 
<knome> hey Noskcaj 
<elfy> hi knome 
<Unit193> Howdy elfy.
<knome> hey elfy, Unit193 
<elfy> hi Unit193 
<knome> and hai ochosi
<ochosi> knome: i've thought a bit about our roadmap for 14.04
<ochosi> todo-items etc.
<Unit193> And you'd like to take most?
<ochosi> most of what i can think of at the moment concerns xfce upstream
<ochosi> and helping them to get 4.12 ready and out
<ochosi> so i might focus on that
<knome> ochosi, feel free to update the wikipage
<ochosi> right, but i'm not sure it's something very "trackable"
<knome> the roadmap itself doesn't need to be all-trackable work items
<Noskcaj10> ochosi, One way you could help is convince corsac to upload the 4.11 stuff to experimental
<ochosi> Noskcaj10: nah, i'm not really into packaging
<Noskcaj10> It's all packaged, it's just a case of corsac doesn't have enough people helping with bugs to upload it
<ochosi> well then what can i do?
<Noskcaj10> i've got to go to school now, bye
<skellat> Noskcaj10!
<brainwash> any plans to get rid of gnome-system-tools (users-admin)?
<micahg> Noskcaj10: we won't take all of 4.11 in Ubuntu anyways, only the pieces we need for the gtk3 indicator enablement and that other feature we wanted
<ochosi> brainwash: well there's a mostly-finished part of a replacement for that in git.xfce
<ochosi> brainwash: but someone would have to pick it up and finish it
<ochosi> hey micahg 
<brainwash> ochosi: oh, I see
<micahg> hi
<micahg> well, we don't want a rushed 4.12, we want a stable LTS
<ochosi> yeah, i'll just do whatever i can to support xfce (as i do almost always, but i'm not sure what i'll do for this xubuntu release specifically)
<ochosi> micahg: any luck in getting the indicator-stuff or the panel into a ppa yet?
<micahg> no, been busy unfortunately
<micahg> I've got work still this weekend
<ochosi> wow, for me the weekend is clearly over :)
<micahg> I'm going to try again this week
<knome> ochosi, timezones...
<micahg> I think I'm 7 hours behind you
<knome> he's UTC+1
<micahg> ah, 6 houts
<micahg> *hours
<micahg> oh, did he already roll back DST?
<knome> though DST ended last night, was +2
<knome> i'm +2 now.
<knome> i think all of EU did.
<micahg> so, he's now +1
<ochosi> yup
<brainwash> ochosi: greybird will remain the default theme, right?
<micahg> so, 7 time zones, 6 hours :)
<micahg> still UTC-5 for another week
<knome> they should get rid of the DST madness.
<ochosi> brainwash: yeah, i think it will
<knome> well unless there is another as tested, as well supported theme...
<brainwash> all shimmer ones are :P
<knome> all of them kind of are, but not really
<ochosi> well, i don't personally use bluebird or albatross anymore
<ochosi> so that means they got a lot less attention
<knome> albatross needs reworking
<brainwash> numix
<ochosi> numix is farely tested, but its focus is on gnome3
<ochosi> and i'm not driving that project really
<knome> bluebird is mostly good, since it's getting stuff from greybird
<ochosi> i helped a bit here and there with the gtk2 part
<ochosi> and with the xfwm part
<ochosi> but really, numix is not very much in my hands
<ochosi> i'm happy we have it aboard though
<brainwash> there is nothing bad about greybird, just feel that it got a bit boring
<knome> that's not a problem really, but i agree the fact that its focus is not xfce is a con
<ochosi> well numix is mostly being tested on fedora with gnome3
<brainwash> you can but it even in the software center
<ochosi> brainwash: yeah, we can consider switching themes at some point. tbh i grew a bit weary of designing new themes...
<knome> generally i think after LTS is a good spot to do that
<brainwash> maybe some new slight changes to greybird would do the job
<brainwash> so it feels "new"
<knome> heh.
<knome> please, no changes for the sake of changes
<ochosi> brainwash: actually, i did change the menu color since the last LTS
<ochosi> that enraged quite a few people
<micahg> +1, I'd like to just get everything stable for the LTS
<ochosi> many loved it though too
<brainwash> yeah, and we got the theme config tool now
<ochosi> micahg: yeah, no worries, i'm not planning anything crazy ;)
<ochosi> brainwash: exactly. so you can even get that 12.04 greybird look back, if you really want
<knome> ultimately, users can and will change themes, wallpaper, installed applications and what not, so the point is to ship a sensible default...
<knome> who knows what we end up doing after 14.04 with simon :)
<ochosi> exactly
<ochosi> maybe i'll be "too old for this s***" (to quote a weary black man)
<brainwash> right, the LTS should be stable and not cause any uproars like 13.10 did
 * micahg is checking the latest abiword now
<brainwash> 13.10 is like the worst release since I'm using ubuntu mainly (maybe because I did lots of bug tracking and debugging)
<micahg> brainwash: we can try to fix the indicators, anything else wronf?
<micahg> *wrong
<brainwash> uhm, the terminal segfault comes to mind, a patch is available and ali1234 even build the package in his PPA
<brainwash> bug 1206739
<ubottu> bug 1206739 in xfce4-terminal (Ubuntu) "xfce4-terminal crashed with SIGSEGV in magazine_chain_pop_head()" [Medium,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1206739
<ochosi> brainwash: i think that yes, it's due to the debugging that you see this release as particularly bad
<ochosi> but true, the sound-indicator-issue isn't nice
<ochosi> 14.04 will certainly be better
<brainwash> everything seems to go so slow after release, are people afraid of filing SRU reports? :)
<knome> was thinking the same, doing a lot of debugging doesn't inherently mean the release is bad
<knome> you just were involved more...
<micahg> I think part of the problem is that mr_pouit and I have really been lacking time
<knome> the fix for the problem is supporting bluesabre to get upload permissions ASAP
<micahg> I'd love too, as soon as he has enough experience :0
<knome> with supporting i also meant making him have.
<brainwash> bug 1222021 is bothering many people too
<ubottu> bug 1222021 in xfce4-power-manager (Ubuntu) "Laptop sleeps when lid is closed, regardless of Power Manager Settings." [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1222021
<ochosi> yeah, xfce-powerman needs to support systemd at some point
<ochosi> but there's no-one to work on that (upstream)
<ochosi> so we might (at some point) have to think about alternatives
<knome> probably a good idea to keep an eye on that for T
<brainwash> a patch has been released months ago
<micahg> needs to support powerd at least
<knome> if we seeked for somebody who could work on that now, we might get it done for T... ;)
<ochosi> +1
<knome> looks like i might be a bit more available... well, sometime next month .P
<ochosi> not sure where to find someone who can do that though
<knome> but i'll try to squeeze in more FOSS-time
<knome> send mails to email lists, shout around the social media, stuff like that
<ochosi> there was a guy on the xfceML who added an interesting xfce4-powerman patch (laptop-keyboard-backlight support), he could be contacted
<knome> yep, that kind of people.
<ochosi> but then again, means being the go-between to get some xfce dev to review and push the code
<knome> yyyyep.
<knome> but i guess we need to make sure we have time for that kind of stuff now and in the future
<ochosi> and nerves...
<brainwash> oh yeah
<knome> correct
<brainwash> still got plenty of things to debug, and it's driving me mad
<micahg> new abiword will hopefully land in trusty soon
 * micahg just sync'd it
<brainwash> isn't saucy already shipping 3.0?
<knome> micahg, a real release or a random snapshot?
<micahg> 3.0.0
<brainwash> that reminds me of the libreoffice discussion
<knome> brainwash, improving self-control is a thing that i encourage doing, but do not approve as an official work item :P
<micahg> brainwash: saucy has a 3.0 snapshot, I'll have to see what the diff is to see if we can SRU 3.0 itself
<micahg> backport is always an option
<knome> saucy is "just" saucy, it's a non-LTS version just before an LTS; we should encourage everybody to upgrade to 14.04 anyway
<micahg> knome: not for another 9 months :)
<micahg> meh, at least 
<micahg> 6
<knome> heh. :)
<micahg> I'd like to backport 3.0 all the way to precise
<knome> i understand, but we should still consider if backporting something means that we will not have time to fix/do something else for 14.04
<micahg> I'm just severely lacking time right now
<Unit193> Heh, I'd like a backported cryptsetup once it hits trusty, but alas...
<knome> but yeah, i think backporting 3.0.0 is a good idea
<micahg> well, if people can do the testing, I can prepare uploads and push the buttons
<brainwash> any benefit of doing it? it's just abiword :)
<micahg> abiword in precise is atrocious
<knome> micahg, a song for you: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xu3FTEmN-eg
<knome> micahg, (wait for the refrain)
<knome> actually, the C-part @ 2:00
<micahg> haha
<ochosi> i think abiword is less important than the indicators
<knome> yep
<ochosi> SRUing or backporting those would be great
<micahg> on my list for this week, if you don;t hear anything by Wed, poke me
<ochosi> can do
<knome> SRU would be awesome
<ochosi> we should have a thug-bot for those things :)
<micahg> haha
<knome> what about the notes?
<ochosi> what notes?
<micahg> well, let's get it working first, then we can figure out backport vs SRU
<knome> nah, let's SRU a broken stack!
<ochosi> the cool thing is, as soon as we have gtk3-indicators working, we can patch lotsa indicators to work nicer with xfe
<ochosi> xfce
<ochosi> (e.g. power-indicator, which has the nice benefit of optionally showing the remaining battery-life/time with numbers in the panel)
<brainwash> and it's once again "xmir or classic xorg", right?
<knome> yep, we should consider that again
<micahg> +1, let's wait until Ubuntu defaults to it before considering
<micahg> though
<knome> sure
<ochosi> micahg: and let's hope ubuntu doesn't do anything crazy with the indicator-stack this cycle ;)
<Unit193> It's now Qt!
<micahg> haha
<knome> that wasn't a joke
<micahg> oh, I thought ochosi was trying to be a straighman, obviously the indicator stack will undergo major changes for the LTS, it wouldn't be an LTS cycle otherwise :P
<knome> yeah, why not
#xubuntu-devel 2014-10-20
<knosys> sorry i have no extra monitor , just tv and missing a second hdmi cable for reproduce it
<knosys> oh that was a while ago :P
<sidi> Pwnna, not sure what is extend (am running on Arch). I have no trouble wildly disconnecting my second monitor though. Can try to reproduce xrandr to internal only and then wild disconnect but not sure it'll help. in any case im tempted to say regardless of whether the bug is reproducible, the error handling behaviour in xfsettingsd could be defined better
<ali1234> i use nvidia driver and disconnect monitors all the time. i also have no idea what extend means
<knosys> Pwnna , ali1234 extend dekstop to 2 monitors, instead of having one different desktop on each monitor
<ali1234> i didn't know there was any other way to do it?
<knosys> there is other ways
<knosys> its different when you extend it
<knome> i'd call that mirroring, not extending
<knosys> you can have a window in half of both monitor at the same time
<knosys> do you know what i mean?
<ali1234> yes, i know what you mean
<ali1234> this is the default method of doing multimonitor on nvidia, anything else would be pointless
<knosys> thats what i understand from "extend monitor"
<ali1234> why would you specifically choose not to be able to drag windows across monitors?
<knosys> you can duplicate the image
<knosys> for example
<knosys> or just disable one , and enabling the other..
 * ochosi is back after a long weekend
<ochosi> anything important i missed?
<ochosi> did anyone manage to get a hold of xnox?
<knome> nope
<ali1234> sidi: i just watched your XDC talk
<sidi> ali1234, cool, any feedback/thoughts?
<sidi> (especially negative :P)
<ali1234> is there any implementation of WSM that works? for example, i can write a program that requests WSM_SCREENSHOT and libwsm will either allow or deny it, but then what happens?
<ali1234> i mean, after i get permission to do something, how do i then actually do it?
<sidi> We have a prototype that needs to be hooked and implemented by compositor devs who want to try it out
<sidi> Martin will make a Weston implementation when he's back from holidays
<sidi> the program just uses the normal API and then gets a response based on the policy
<sidi> most of the API isnt designed in Wayland actually
<sidi> because noone wanted to do it wrong :P
<ali1234> what is the "normal" API for eg WSM_SCREENSHOT though?
<sidi> so i'm currently designing API
<sidi> i dont think there is one yet
<sidi> basically getting a framebuffer of the entire screen would be that API
<sidi> currently it shouldnt be possible in pure Wayland (dunno about XWayland)
<sidi> so basically libwsm tells compositor developers "place a hook in this function, and then get a reply from whatever backend is in use"
<sidi> in practice, libwsm is just a draft
<sidi> it'll change and improve
<sidi> was more meant for KDE/GNOME/E19 and Weston devs to poke around and get their requirements written
<sidi> for app developers this is irrelevant
<sidi> all they need to do is to tell us what permissions they need
<sidi> in a separate file, a bit like a .desktop file
<sidi> packagers and distros are then free to modify these permission files if they disagree
<ali1234> i see that as a problem
<sidi> why?
<ali1234> because desktop developers don't need permissions, app developers do
<ali1234> if you ask GNOME what permissions they want to export, they'll say "none"
<sidi> ali thats not what i meant
<sidi> what i mean is, desktop compositor developers are responsible for using the library
<sidi> to verify that a specific app has permission
<sidi> so, if i implement in an hypothetical wayland xfce compositor a method for taking a screenshot
<sidi> i would call libwsm with the wayland socket of the requesting client
<sidi> libwsm would find the client, find the backend and policy used on the OS, and would return one of several possible recommendations
<sidi> and then compositor must decide what to do with this
<sidi> app developers provide a file with their source that tells what their app does, and distros verify it when packaging the app
<sidi> (which is what windows, ios, os x and android do, virtually)
<ali1234> so my point is, what's the point of a cross-DE permissions system, if there is no cross-DE API for it to protect?
<sidi> then everyone is free to provide GUIs of their liking, the API is flexible and so generic and dumb you can do whatever you want with it
<sidi> the API is meant to be cross-DE
<sidi> Wayland essentially defines an API, but some bits are not done yet
<ali1234> that's not what they told me
<sidi> for instance Weston has a custom Fullscreen API because people (gnome/weston/kde/tizen) havent standardised it yet
<sidi> most API should be X-DE
<ali1234> wayland developers told me wayland will never implement these things by design
<sidi> otherwise theres no point to doing Wayland
<ali1234> well yeah, that's what i said
<sidi> well wayland doesnt implement things, it's just a spec
<sidi> ali1234, Martin who was working with me just informed me he pushed libwsm into libwayland
<sidi> so yeah i would assume that some of the API will be standardised
<sidi> i would also assume some of it will not, because only some DEs implement it
<sidi> this is very grey area so far, most of this work has yet to be done...
<sidi> ali1234, who is it you talked to?
<ali1234> jasper mainly
<sidi> yeah
<sidi> Jasper explicitly stated that he thinks libwsm is stupid and that we dont understand security
<ali1234> lol
<sidi> he also does not seem keen at all on anything being cross-DE
<sidi> so you know..
<ali1234> so here's a thing, did you think about this situation? say a compositor has one single API to intercept both keyboard and mouse, which permission does it request? can it requests both at once, or do you get two requests sequentially?
<sidi> so, in the case it has a single API it does not mean the calls are not separate dwithin this API
<sidi> i fail to see how a client can need within an atomic call to modify both mouse and keyboard
<sidi> i've never seen such API in my life
<ali1234> well it might be that the compositor just designed the api that way
<sidi> in any case if it were to exist, either the compo dev believes this is really a combined use of both APIs, and it requires both permissions
<sidi> or the dev believes the semantics dont match and that API has another purpose (and morei mportantly a different attack surface / threat model) and then a new permission can be made
<sidi> and integrated into the backend i wrote
<sidi> ali1234, move_keyboard_and_mouse_at_the_same_time (...)? :P
<ali1234> it was just an example
<sidi> well, you're right this situationwill occur
<sidi> libwsm is just a prototype, not an injunction
<sidi> i think jasper took it as "two idiots who never wrote a compositor are telling me what to do and they have no clue what we actually need". it's partly a fair point and partly the fact that he didnt get a specification or a list of requirements for his security model, yet he is close to feature parity with X
<sidi> we've made something dumb and simple and we're essentially asking DEs to identify how this dumb thing fails them, so we can try to develop something that matches requirements for each major DE and has decent flexibility for the future
<ali1234> i disagree that any wayland compositor has anywhere near close to feature parity with X
<sidi> doesnt GNOME Shell have fullscreen, screenshot, clipboard?
<sidi> well they probably still use the old X APIs actually
<ali1234> yeah it has them if you are using the GDK X backend
<sidi> but they want to switch this to default in Fedora/GNOME asap dont they? which means "we wont change the APIs"
<ali1234> in the wayland backend it's all //TODO: implement this
<ali1234> and there's no way to implement it
<sidi> the problem is the clipboard API especially is broken, it allows too many attacks and even worse it doesnt even allow apps to do basic stuff in a secure way (you cant query the type of data in the clipboard to check if your app supports it without pulling the data)
<ali1234> also fullscreen, screenshot, clipboard is nothing like feature parity anyway
<sidi> (errata to what i've said before, my friend didnt push libwsm into libwayland-trunk but into a testing branch of libwayland :p)
<sidi> fair enough
<ali1234> you need things like WSM_RAISE_FOCUS_OTHER, WSM_POSITION_RESIZE(_OTHER)
<sidi> good points
<ali1234> ability to get information about other clients
<ali1234> even maybe ability to draw into other client's surfaces
<ali1234> or at least around them :)
<sidi> that really should be done via IPC or UI composition
<sidi> either the apps collaborate to produce something, or clearly separated UI elements are embedded within one another
<sidi> if you have other ideas of capabilities, or issues with the existing ones do ping me ali1234 !
<ali1234> also, why is screenshot and screensharing separate?
<ali1234> if i get screenshot permission, can't i just keep doing it over and over?
<ali1234> you could ask every time, but that is going to get annoying
<ali1234> most likely the screenshot tool is just going to be set to "always allow" by the packager
<ali1234> in which case they've defacto received screensharng permission to
<ali1234> i suppose something like skype you would want it to ask permission every time
<ali1234> also worth considering that there are input devices other than keyboard and mouse
<ali1234> like joysticks for example, or leap motion, or oculus rift head tracker
<ali1234> or other weird haptic things
<ali1234> although i suppose the "core pointer" as X calls it is not really tied to any specific hardware, it's an abstraction
<ali1234> i should subscribe wayland-devel
<ochosi> folks, i won't make tomorrow's meeting, it's unfortunate, but it's a conflict of appointments :/
<ochosi> or: another conflict....
<knome> that's okay, the meetings are much more pleasant without you whining anyway
<knome> oops ;)
<knome> no seriously, meh, but maybe you're around and available at other times tomorrow if somebody needs something?
<ochosi> heh
<ochosi> yeah, i'll try to be
<knome> VV is called Vivid Vervet
<ochosi> at least during what is my morning
<knome> http://www.markshuttleworth.com/archives/1425
<ochosi> oh
<ochosi> hadnt read that yet
<knome> yeah, just accidentally bumped into that when checking the planet
<elfy> respins tomorrow
<ochosi> hey elfy 
<elfy> hi ochosi 
<GridCube> the xfce4-weather-plugin is failing, see https://forum.xfce.org/viewtopic.php?id=9163 , fixed version is 0.8.3-5 apparently, trusty ships -1, and utopic will -2, so it will fail 
<skellat> I guess we're not going to eat anybody's lunch in 15.04 :-( http://www.markshuttleworth.com/archives/1425
<Unit193> "Document es/index.xml does not validate" dangit.
<Unit193> migrating-upgrading.xml:315, settings-preferences.xml:373, media-apps.xml:323.
<knome> Unit193, oi, fail :)
<brainwash_> bluesabre: https://code.launchpad.net/~brunonova/ubuntu/trusty/xubuntu-default-settings/lp1310264/+merge/238935
<brainwash_> it's a minor UI change, so the fix has not been backported yet
<knome> https://twitter.com/RLUK_Mike/status/517243907193970688
<Unit193> knome: Nice.
<knosys> who is that? :D
<knosys> i should already know right ? xD
#xubuntu-devel 2014-10-21
<bluesabre> Gridcube: it's fixed in our release, http://changelogs.ubuntu.com/changelogs/pool/universe/x/xfce4-weather-plugin/xfce4-weather-plugin_0.8.3-2/changelog
<GridCube> bluesabre, its on -proposed?
<bluesabre> Gridcube: Fixed in -2 in debian and utopic, currently in trusty-proposed.  The issue was the old weather API was deprecated
<bluesabre> brainwash_: right, it's a minor UI change... which is why we haven't backported it sooner.
<GridCube> ok, so ill enable -proposed and test :)
<GridCube> thnks
<bluesabre> thanks GridCube
<GridCube> :D
<GridCube> it works!
<GridCube> automatically
<bluesabre> woot!
<GridCube> :) now to disable -proposed again :P
<ochosi> late/brief evening, bluesabre 
 * ochosi just installed xubuntu on a 6yr old macbook today
<ochosi> worked like a breeze/y badger
<ochosi> or in fact. not at all. it really was a breeze
<ochosi> breeze badger would've been extremely hard to install on a macbook i guess
<bluesabre> maybe
<bluesabre> breezy would definitely have been PPC time, not sure how good support was back then
<bluesabre> 6yr old might have actually been intel
<ochosi> yup, was/is intel
 * bluesabre is going to add apport hooks to all his apps for 15.04 to simplify bug reports
<ochosi> mm, good ieda
<ochosi> idea
<ochosi> that also means you'll get loads of bugreports (or not, i hope)
<bluesabre> hopefully loads of bug reports with obvious solutions ;)
<bluesabre> or "you ran that as sudo... again... congrats!"
<ochosi> hehe
<ochosi> keeping my fingers crossed
<bluesabre> what are you up to ochosi?
<ochosi> not too much, it's late, i'm just trying to catch up on some things and finish unfinished mail
<bluesabre> cool, I'm torn between being productive and goofing off atm
<bluesabre> :)
<ObrienDave> goof off being productive ;P
<ochosi> bluesabre: what about low-hanging fruit?
<ochosi> (i.e. those two xfsettings bugs i mentioned earlier ;))
<bluesabre> yeah, that might be the way to go
<bluesabre> I'll see if they work in general and then upload, waiting for others to complain :)
<bluesabre> baby steps to fix these issues
<ochosi> yup, sounds great
<ochosi> well they're both rather unproblematic i think
<ochosi> mostly exception-catching
<ochosi> anyway, mail sent
<bluesabre> also, the mythtv one has a fix now too
<ochosi> mythtv?
<bluesabre> mythbuntu... I'll have to dig up the bug.  I think its vga/tv/etc outputs
<ochosi> oh right
<ochosi> really?
<ochosi> that one where the external tv got its power deactivated?
<bluesabre> yeah that one
<ochosi> oh cool
<ochosi> i thought it was sorta unfixable
<bluesabre> somebody came up with a patch that worked for them
<ochosi> since i had no idea how to even reproduce it
<ochosi> without buying a tv
<bluesabre> our goal will be to make sure that patch doesn't break it for other scenarios
<ochosi> right
<ochosi> yeah, that makes sense
<ochosi> gotta head to bed now
<ochosi> will be around tomorrow though
<bluesabre> I'll try to get some basic testing in and upload tonight... I'll take care of the small fix you messaged me about earlier now
<ochosi> for some time at least
<ochosi> cool
<ochosi> sorry, just too tired for any real work now
<ochosi> have a good night and ttyl
<bluesabre> np
<bluesabre> have a good night
<ochosi> ty
<ali1234> mythtv problems?
<bluesabre> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/nvidia-graphics-drivers-331/+bug/1308105
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 1308105 in xfce4-settings "Xfce resets TV mode to NULL when power cycled" [Medium,Confirmed]
<ali1234> bluesabre: would those xfsettings bugs ochosi mentioned happen to include the one i wrote a patch for?
<bluesabre> ali1234: I see this one with your name floating around, https://bugzilla.xfce.org/show_bug.cgi?id=11229
<ubottu> bugzilla.xfce.org bug 11229 in Xfsettingsd "seg-fault upon workspace rename" [Normal,New]
<ali1234> yeah, that one
<bluesabre> anything I should know, or should the final patch be a safe cure-all?
<ali1234> it should be perfectly safe
<ali1234> cure-all is a bit far
<bluesabre> :)
<ali1234> i suspect there are many similar problems all over xfce to do with unexpected values in the registry... erm, i mean xfconf
<bluesabre> probably
<ali1234> but that one key should be bullet proof at least :)
<bluesabre> we stole the parole xfconf code from thunar, so if you find issues in thunar, let me know :)
<ali1234> i don't like to go near the thunar code
<ali1234> essentially though, the problem is that when you ask for the value from xfconf, you get a g_value which can be of any type
<bluesabre> right, I've dealt with that a bit recently
<ali1234> if you assume it's a string when it isn't, and then ask for the value, you get back NULL
<ali1234> if you then attempt to use the string -> segfault
<ali1234> and of course user can write any value into any key with any type, at any time
<bluesabre> that's fun... I'm guessing it would be a large effort to harden xfconf in general?
<ali1234> i would expect so
<bluesabre> and then at what point are xfconf and gsettings basically the same :)
<ali1234> the other half of the patch is because if you unset a g_value it forgets it's type, and then you can't assign a value to it without reinitializing it
<ali1234> i grepped the entire xfce source code for other instances of this type of bug and there were none
<bluesabre> oh, that's reassuring at least
<ali1234> well, no obvious ones, ie within 5 lines context
<ali1234> i doubt there are any subtle versions of this though
<bluesabre> Tested, verified, and committed.
<ali1234> thanks
<bluesabre> ochosi: you're a bug admin, right? Can you mark this one fixed tomorrow? https://bugzilla.xfce.org/show_bug.cgi?id=11229
<ubottu> bugzilla.xfce.org bug 11229 in Xfsettingsd "seg-fault upon workspace rename" [Normal,New]
 * bluesabre can only comment on xfce4-settings
<bluesabre> despite having full git push to the main branch
<bluesabre> and release manager rights :)
<bluesabre> ali1234: you're familiar with the forking issues, right?
<ali1234> yeah
<bluesabre> can you advise whether the first patch here is acceptable, or if I should go with Eric's patch? I'm not sure when the forking issue has occurred https://bugzilla.xfce.org/show_bug.cgi?id=11188
<ubottu> bugzilla.xfce.org bug 11188 in Xfsettingsd ""Unknown option --display" and xfsettingsd doesn't start on session login." [Normal,New]
<bluesabre> I'm leaning towards the second patch... just ignore --display in general
<ali1234> no, eric's is better, as he said, "I was trying to avoid the gtk_get_option_group call because it calls gtk_init"
<ali1234> and there are other ways to parse the arguments without invoking gtk init, which is what his patch does, apparently
<ali1234> oh wait, that isn;t what it does
<ali1234> hmm, i'm not sure
<ali1234> no wait, i was pretty much right
<ali1234> the first patch is going to call gtk_init before the fork, which should always be avoided, even if it appears to work
<ochosi> morning folks
<slickymasterWork> hey ochosi, morning
<ochosi> bluesabre: taken care of the bugreport in bz and on the critical list
<ochosi> i suppose you didn't get to the second one anymore :>
<bluesabre> good morning ochosi
<bluesabre> getting to the second one now
<bluesabre> ali1234: thanks for taking a look
<ochosi> cool
<bluesabre> for the other bug, I mean that xfsettingsd sometimes crashes when unplugging a monitor, in its current state
<ochosi> you mean the one with the --display option?
<bluesabre> https://bugzilla.xfce.org/show_bug.cgi?id=11107
<ubottu> bugzilla.xfce.org bug 11107 in Xfsettingsd "xfsettingsd resets TV mode to NULL on power cycle" [Normal,New]
<ochosi> oh that
<ochosi> right, so then there's actually two bugreports
<ochosi> that need looking at
<ochosi> or pushing their patches actually
<ochosi> that one with the tv mode and the other one with the --display option
<bluesabre> yeah, probably going to wait for another comment on this one with additional confirmation
<ochosi> this == the latter?
<bluesabre> the one I just posted
<ochosi> oh right
<bluesabre> we're having some communication issues this morning :P
<ochosi> hehe, seems like it :)
<bluesabre> ochosi: committed, https://bugzilla.xfce.org/show_bug.cgi?id=11188
<ubottu> bugzilla.xfce.org bug 11188 in Xfsettingsd ""Unknown option --display" and xfsettingsd doesn't start on session login." [Normal,New]
<ochosi> great, bz and buglist updated
<bluesabre> thanks
<ochosi> np, we should probably get you the keys to bz though
<ochosi> it's a bit silly you can't do anything there
<ochosi> hmpf, successfully pinged xnox, not too sure anything will come of it though
<bluesabre> going to get ready for work now, bbl
<ochosi> hf bluesabre, ttly
<ochosi> ttyl
<elfy> ochosi: I see you're missing tonight - got any comments on the 3 discussions points?
<ochosi> elfy: i kinda second the xubuntu+1 support proposal
<ochosi> we can say we accept that after final beta, makes sense to me
<ochosi> better than getting people in the devel channel imo
<ochosi> elfy: the QA processes stuff looks a bit bureaucratic to me, considering we're so few people actually following them, but you're the QA lead so I'd think it's up to you to decide how you wanna organise testing
<ochosi> i'm fine with getting the team more involved in testing, although i think that it'd be even better to try to get frequent visitors of #xubuntu or new users involved in this
<elfy> well ... me asking people in team to test has had really good results ;)
<elfy> ochosi: perhaps we should include the ordinary mailing list for testing calls 
<ochosi> yeah
<ochosi> that's definitely a good idea
<ochosi> it's really a pity i can't be there tonight
<elfy> that's ok
<ochosi> but i would want us to start laying out plans for V asap
<ochosi> and we have to settle on either trello or launchapd
<ochosi> lp
<elfy> ochosi: you know the release note pad is up at http://pad.ubuntu.com/FinalReleaseNotes
<ochosi> doing both is exhausting
<ochosi> no, thanks, i obviously missed that
<elfy> frankly I'd go for LP 
<elfy> bluesabre said he was going to get a changelog on the pad 
<ochosi> wait, i thought you were on the trello side?
<ochosi> what seems most important to me personally is that we only use *one* tool
<ochosi> monitoring >1 is just a waste of resources/time/energy
<elfy> trello works for me ochosi - and I'll use it again - but I've not got the energy to get people to use it - I don't care now
<elfy> I'm certainly not interested enough to set it all up again - though that said I'll not be setting up all the blueprints either - team leads can do that 
<ochosi> yeah, every team lead should set his/her blueprint up anyway imo
<ochosi> i actually think that this should be a discussion of team leads, since those have the responsibility to keep their stuff up to date (even if others contribute)
<elfy> ochosi: do you want me to add trello to the agenda? we can start it if nothing else
<ochosi> yeah, i think it'd be good to start the discussion
<ochosi> thanks elfy 
<ochosi> then we should think of a period we deem appropriate for setting up blueprints and goals for 15.04, i'll try to think about this a bit more on the weekend
<elfy> okey doke
<elfy> as it stands I'd mark the images ready for release - so that at least is good 
<ochosi> sweet
<elfy> still got the black bug - but as knome said day or so ago - at least it's black and not a debian background or something 
<ali1234> "installer wallpaper replaced by spinal tap album cover"
<elfy> ali1234: lol
<elfy> as long as we set default volumes to 11 I'd +1 it 
<ali1234> are we still going with the pink everywhere?
<elfy> yep
<elfy> at least I've not heard any different to that
<ali1234> next release we should replace it with turquoise because, well, https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=vervet&tbm=isch
<elfy> LMAO
<ochosi> ali1234: haha, yeah, i'm all for it
<knome> >__<
<elfy> knome: it is a *blue* sort of :p
<knome> hah
<knome> when did elfy start teaching me about colors ;)
<elfy> lol
<Pwnna> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/xfce4-settings/+bug/1382888
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 1382888 in xfce4-settings (Ubuntu) "xfsettingsd crashes after disconnecting from screen and ac" [Undecided,New]
<knome> Pwnna, what is "extend" ?
<Pwnna> two monitor
<Pwnna> not mirror
<knome> it wouldn't hurt if you had examples of commands/gui stuff you do to do that
<knome> for the points 1 and 2 at least
<knome> and disconnect what power?
<knome> it isn't clear to me what you are doing
<Pwnna> knome: actually i don't think that part is necessary
<Pwnna> just plug another monitor into your computer, xrandr to turn it on, and then turn it off and disconnect
<ali1234> Pwnna: i do that all the time and it works fine
<ali1234> what we actually need is a backtrace
<Pwnna> also: https://bugzilla.xfce.org/show_bug.cgi?id=11188
<ubottu> bugzilla.xfce.org bug 11188 in Xfsettingsd ""Unknown option --display" and xfsettingsd doesn't start on session login." [Normal,Resolved: fixed]
<Pwnna> not sure if this is related
<Pwnna> ali1234: where do i get a back trace for that?
<Pwnna> xorg.log?
<elfy> !team | 20 minute warning
<ubottu> 20 minute warning: bluesabre, elfy, jjfrv8, knome, lderan, micahg, Noskcaj, ochosi, pleia2, skellat, slickymaster, Unit193
<Noskcaj> ok
<skellat> I'll be over in #ubuntu-meeting chairing the LoCo Council meeting
<knome> elfy, so are we starting 2 minutes past? ;)
<elfy> skellat: yea I realise - I'll be trying to keep an eye on it too 
<elfy> knome: yep
 * slickymaster is starting to have diner
<slickymaster> s/diner/dinner
<pleia2> neat, I'm in an airport lounge with lousy wifi, but I am here-ish for meeting
<elfy> pleia2: I'll make sure that it looks like you've lost signal but actually not be saying anything for long stretches :D
<elfy> just to add some confusion to your day :p
<elfy> #startmeeting Xubuntu Community Meeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Tue Oct 21 20:00:46 2014 UTC.  The chair is elfy. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
<xnox> hi
<elfy> ok then, lots to get through - who's here now
<elfy> hi xnox 
<xnox> ubiquity no desktop background is due to xsettingsd
<xnox> not working, that is it's defunct when ubiquity-dm spawns it
<pleia2> o/
<jjfrv8-work> o/
<slickymaster> o/
<xnox> xfwm4 is also complaining about the lack of SESSION_MANAGER and i have no clue know is that suppose to be
 * xnox looks around and follow the crowd
<xnox> o/
<pleia2> xnox: it's meeting time :)
<dkessel> o/
<elfy> #chair pleia2 jjfrv8-work slickymaster 
<meetingology> Current chairs: elfy jjfrv8-work pleia2 slickymaster
<elfy> xnox: not sure if either ochosi or bluesabre are about tbh - they'd be the ones to deal with it - though it's good to know what it is - we were kind of resigned to the black background this late - it not being something really odd for us like debian background
 * slickymaster appreciates that elfy is giving him some time to finish his dineer
<slickymaster> * dinner
<knome> o/
<elfy> xnox: but if that's the reason - that's good to know 
<elfy> #chair knome 
<meetingology> Current chairs: elfy jjfrv8-work knome pleia2 slickymaster
<elfy> and hi
<elfy> we'd best march on - bit to get through
<knome> ola
<elfy> #topic Open action items
<slickymaster> olÃ¡ knome 
<elfy> #ACTION: pleia2 to contact unixstickers
<meetingology> ACTION: : pleia2 to contact unixstickers
<pleia2> I did that
<elfy> I knew that too :)
<pleia2> they replied :)
<elfy> so we just need to ask and then we'll get them? 
<pleia2> yep
<elfy> cool - so we can mark that one as done :)
<pleia2> #DONE pleia2 to contact unixstickers
<elfy> like that :p
<elfy> #ACTION: knome to write a more formalized proposal about the QA process improvements with elfy after N days of comments/feedback for the pad 
<meetingology> ACTION: : knome to write a more formalized proposal about the QA process improvements with elfy after N days of comments/feedback for the pad
<knome> hrr, i haven't got to that
<elfy> well - I know I've not done much on that
<knome> i'll try to get to that ASAP
<elfy> and I also know there's been little in the way of comment too
<knome> just carry on :)
<knome> yeah... sadly
<knome> but i guess everybody just agress
<knome> *agrees
<elfy> well 
<elfy> earlier today : <ochosi> elfy: the QA processes stuff looks a bit bureaucratic to me, considering we're so few people actually following them, but you're the QA lead so I'd think it's up to you to decide how you wanna organise testing
 * slickymaster agrees
<knome> right
<elfy> and given that half of it is tied up with making sure that QA and dev get together at cycle start and actually plan things - makes me think we're not going to get far with it
<knome> i'll try to make it as little bureaucratic as possible..
<knome> though it's  a good thing if qa and dev can get togehter at the beginning of the cycle
<elfy> the trouble is - this process issue is tied up with a whole bag of strings
<elfy> knome: +1 to that 
<mikodo> hey! I just stumbled into this. What is pad ^
<knome> the reason why i'd like to have at least something documented is that then we have at least... something documented
<elfy> I'm just concerned that time will drag on and I'll end up with less time to plan
<elfy> mikodo: http://pad.ubuntu.com/xubuntu-qa-v-cycle
<mikodo> elfy, thx and hie
<mikodo> *hi
<elfy> knome: yep - anyway I think move this to mailing list now to at least try and get *some* comment
<elfy> I can get something to the list by the end of the week if that's the case
<knome> elfy, let's work with that on the pad then or sth, we have the same goal anyway
<elfy> yea - but we really need -team to be in this as well imho
<elfy> it does kind of say that they've got to test if asked :)
<elfy> #action xubuntu-qa to continue working with v-cycle qa pad
<meetingology> ACTION: xubuntu-qa to continue working with v-cycle qa pad
<elfy> #action elfy mail the -devel list to garner comment on pad
<meetingology> ACTION: elfy mail the -devel list to garner comment on pad
<elfy> knome: does that work for you?
<knome> yep
<elfy> moving on then
<elfy> #ACTION: knome to move the "translations important for xubuntu" list to the processes page, discussion can continue when needed 
<meetingology> ACTION: : knome to move the "translations important for xubuntu" list to the processes page, discussion can continue when needed
<slickymaster> hasn't been done yet
<elfy> did you get around to that ?
 * slickymaster hides
<elfy> slickymaster: were you doing that?
<slickymaster> no elfy, it was knome who would do it
<slickymaster> at least that's what was decided 
<elfy> I thought so - anyway if it's not done - we can move on I guess 
<slickymaster> but I can do it, if he doesn't mind
<slickymaster> or lacks the time to
<elfy> knome: ^^ you can pass the buck if you like :)
<knome> i'll do that today.
<elfy> ok - thanks knome 
<knome> np
<slickymaster> thanks knome 
<knome> np again ;)
<elfy> there were a couple of -quality actions on the logs from last meeting, neither have been started - not had time this week 
<elfy> likewise -bugs were going to talk to -qa re a triage plan - even if they'd wanted to I'd not have had time this week :)
<elfy> I *think* that's all the open action items
<elfy> if anyone thinks differently - speak now or forever hold your peace :)
<elfy> moving on then
<elfy> # Team updates
<elfy> # Topic Team updates
<elfy> I mean 
<pleia2> no space :)
<pleia2> #Topic Team updates
<elfy> sigh :D
<elfy> anyone got anything ?
<elfy> other than me :p
<pleia2> #info unixstickers has sold plenty of Xubuntu items, so we just need to let them know what we want for the reward based QA program
<elfy> thanks :)
<pleia2> #info unixstickers will also be producing t-shirts soon, production info here: http://www.unixstickers.com/tshirts/underground-t-shirts/the-ultimate-pirate-bay-tshirt
<slickymaster> nothing from me
<knome> nope
<knome> quiet week
<elfy> ok 
<elfy> #info Image testing has been better for the final image
<elfy> #info upgrade tests though only have 1 result from me so ... 
<pleia2> I did some final iso testing when I was at home, but won't be able to pitch in this week because hotel wifi, etc :\
<slickymaster> image testing show a considerable number of test though
<elfy> #action Any -team member who can do an Upgrade test of some sort - appreciated - concentrate on the Upgrade rather than Upgrade(image) 
<meetingology> ACTION: Any -team member who can do an Upgrade test of some sort - appreciated - concentrate on the Upgrade rather than Upgrade(image)
<slickymaster> I can do it tomorroe in a VM
<slickymaster> * tomorrow
<jjfrv8-work> I can do my laptop tonight
<elfy> #Action xubuntu-team to watch tracker for respins - if they appear please test what you can
<meetingology> ACTION: xubuntu-team to watch tracker for respins - if they appear please test what you can
<elfy> #action #xubuntu-qa to ping team in channel if they see respins appear
<meetingology> ACTION: #xubuntu-qa to ping team in channel if they see respins appear
<elfy> nothing else from me
<knome> xubuntu-qa without # :P
<knome> #nick xubuntu-qa
<elfy> #undo
<meetingology> Removing item from minutes: ACTION
<elfy> #action xubuntu-qa to ping team in channel if they see respins appear
<meetingology> ACTION: xubuntu-qa to ping team in channel if they see respins appear
<elfy> #topic Discussion
<pleia2> happy release week :D
<elfy> #subtopic Xubuntu+1 support in #xubuntu
<elfy> I've got a comment from ochosi earlier re that 
<elfy> <ochosi> elfy: i kinda second the xubuntu+1 support proposal
<elfy> <ochosi> we can say we accept that after final beta, makes sense to me
<elfy> the thinking here from me at least is that - we're trying to improve testing and #ubuntu+1 is a bit xubuntu light
<elfy> and if we are pushing we ought to at least give people the chance to get some help
<dkessel> Sounds food. Better than sending people to #ubuntu+1 and having them get no support there
<elfy> yea 
<knome> dkessel, FOOD?
<knome> is the traffic too high in -devel to send the people here?
<elfy> freudian slip - or it would be if I said it 
<slickymaster> and I'm the one eating :)
<dkessel> good I meant. Boo, autocomplete...
<pleia2> hehe
<elfy> knome: <ochosi> better than getting people in the devel channel imo
<knome> oh ;)
<knome> dkessel, you have "food" in autocomplete?
<slickymaster> lmao
<elfy> but tbh I'm quite relaxed about where - just so long as it's a #xubuntu channel 
<knome> #xubuntu+1 works, but then we should know how's going to op that channel
<dkessel> knome: Ask the Android dictionary makers...
<elfy> knome: oh 
<slickymaster> I propose knome and elfy to op it
<elfy> didn't know we had that 
<slickymaster> and Unit193, also
<elfy> unless we didn't ... 
<knome> elfy, we don't, but if we set that up...
<elfy> oh right :)
<knome> and we'll have to see if the irc team wants to take the maintaining responsibility for that
<elfy> mmm 
<knome> or if it's just like -devel (more probable)
<knome> i can take care of that with Unit193 if we decide to go ahead with that
<elfy> so how about going with #xubuntu towards the end of the V cycle 
<elfy> trouble with having a new channel is it's likely not to see many people who can actually help
<elfy> probably
<knome> well,
<knome> that's my argument for -devel or the general ubuntu+1 channel
<elfy> the only reason the likes of *most of us* don't in #xubuntu is because it's nto channel policy
<elfy> which I ignore if it's something simple or quick ;)
<knome> people who'd be helping in #xubuntu+1 is probably the same people as here or #ubuntu+1
<elfy> holstein for instance commented 
<knome> (and it's one more channel)
<elfy> knome: yea possibly - but I'm more likely to notice someone saying something in #xubuntufoo
<knome> that's true
<knome> but -devel
<knome> i understand it's not the ideal solution either
<knome> maybe we should simply vote?
<elfy> on which :)
<elfy> or both?
<knome> well, all options
<knome> can be even a non-technical vote
<knome> just say what you think is the best option
<slickymaster> you mean vote on the ML?
<knome> no, in irc, right now
<elfy> I'd start here 
<knome> let's not make it too bureaucratic
<knome> just shout out which channel you'd like
<knome> (no need to start a #vote even)
<elfy> ok - I'll start then 
<knome> sure
<knome> i'm still thinking
 * slickymaster waits his turn
<elfy> vote for support in #xubuntu channel for dev version once Beta 1 is testing
<pleia2> +1
<jjfrv8-work> +0
 * slickymaster votes for support in a yet to be created #xubuntu+1 channel
<knome> #xubuntu-devel for x+1 support after beta1 is out; second favorite #x+1
<pleia2> more channels make me meh, and people end up lurking in -devel and asking support questions once we open that up
<knome> pleia2, that's fair, but mixing people who whine about each small feature breaking and very clueless people in #x...
<pleia2> sounds perfect :D
<knome> sounds like more frustration for both the supporters and people seeking help
<knome> i can live with that
<elfy> awesome 
<pleia2> I worry that we'll just spend half our time redirecting people to the right channel
<knome> but i'll tell you it'll be hard to police that "after beta 1 is out" rule
<pleia2> apparently even -devel vs support is hard for a lot of folks ;P
<knome> pleia2, that hasn't been a problem so far
<elfy> so we've got half a dozen different ideas and still no further forward
<pleia2> elfy: yeah, how's that beer?
<elfy> cold :)
<knome> i'd just go with elfy's suggestion if ochosi wasn't +1 on +1
<elfy> ok - so it's now 21:47 here - executive decision is now that 
<pleia2> we could just try out one suggestion and see how it goes
<pleia2> thanks elfy 
<elfy> #action Elfy to mail -devel re where we support testers
<meetingology> ACTION: Elfy to mail -devel re where we support testers
<knome> let's go with +1 support on #xubuntu agter beta then
<knome> elfy, well that's different
<knome> testers should be supported in -devel
<elfy> good lord 
<knome> people who just install +1 and ask a support question not :P
<elfy> mmmm
<knome> i'm sorry for nitpicking :P
<elfy> that's a matter of semantics 
<knome> but the difference is that testers are useful for us
<elfy> someone running +1 IS testing ;)
<ali1234> how can you tell the difference?
<knome> then we should support them here and make them report tests.
<knome> ali1234, see if they've submitted iso/package testing results.
<elfy> ali1234: I guess we can see if reports are being made
<elfy> yea 
<ali1234> i never do that
<knome> ali1234, shame on you.
<knome> ali1234, you should.
<ali1234> i don't even understand how it is useful
<ali1234> reports go there to die
<knome> ali1234, i'll PM you
 * elfy will still mail the list
<elfy> #subtopic Decide on Trello or Launchpad 
<elfy> so
<elfy> I've not got the energy to even go here tbh - I really don't care what we do
<knome> i still don't mind which one we use, as long as we only use one
<knome> i'm leaning towards launchpad because it has the real-time bug status synergy.
<pleia2> I don't look at trello much, it's just not in my workflow :(
<pleia2> launchpad emails me <3
<elfy> both mail me pleia2 ;)
<pleia2> and launchpad is open source :D
<elfy> anyway - I'm happy to do whatever  we decide as a team
<elfy> last cycle website was on a blueprint - from what I can see , that's not made it to anything this cycle
<elfy> any point in doing anything like a vote with this?
<pleia2> oops :(
<knome> i think that and the situation with testing just reflects how much away people have been this cycle
<elfy> I'm quite happy to just go back to using launchpad 
<knome> anybody disagrees?
<jjfrv8-work> nah
<pleia2> I've been away more than normal
<knome> same here; in comparison to the trusty cycle, much more
<elfy> I do know that ochosi will be wanting team leads to do their own blueprints 
<elfy> which is fair enough
<knome> absolutely.
<knome> they are the only ones who know what the goals for the cycle are anyway
<elfy> yep
<knome> and/or are laying them out
<knome> if nobody disagrees to returning to LP, let's move on
<knome> somebody wants to send an email to the list, or just 3info it?
<elfy> the other 2 discussion items we've dealt with afaik
<knome> . #info too..
<elfy> #info return to using launchpad, team leads to set out their blueprints
<knome> #info Trello can be used by subteams if they feel it's useful for them, but all general cooperation should go through LP
<knome> ok, let's move on
<elfy> #announcements
<elfy> Release in 2 days \o/ 
<knome> yep, and no critical bugs :)
<elfy> anyone got any others
<elfy> indeed :)
<knome> good work everybody who did even a small bit
<slickymaster> ^^^
<elfy> #Schedule next meeting
<elfy> ochosi is up next for that 
<elfy> #endmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting ended Tue Oct 21 21:03:46 2014 UTC.  
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/xubuntu-devel/2014/xubuntu-devel.2014-10-21-20.00.moin.txt
<elfy> I didn't want to do this in meeting 
<pleia2> thanks elfy 
<slickymaster> thanks elfy 
<knome> $this ?
<knome> and thanks :)
<elfy> but if I feel the same way during the next cycle as I have during this one - I'll not be QA lead in the WW cycle and team can look for someone else to do it 
<elfy> knome: that ;)
<knome> i'll do anything to not let that happen, as much as my own schedule allows
<elfy> well - everyone says that but I still felt that the whole cycle was a complete and utter waste of my time
<knome> well that's probably right
<elfy> anyway - I'll see in January or February - what I will not do though is just walk away :)
<knome> that's appreciated :)
<elfy> I'm not *quite* as bad as I pretend ;
<elfy> )
<knome> lol
<elfy> mmm 
<elfy> looks like everyone is getting a respin ... 
<knome> mhm
<elfy> sigh
<knome> well it's not too bad, we have many tests already
<elfy> so I did the team report etc for pleia2 last week - now I can't find where I started from 
<knome> hm? :D
<pleia2> oh! thanks elfy, that was on my todo list :)
<pleia2> now I just have California to do
<elfy> knome: yea - tbh as long as I can boot on hardware and vm and install to both I'd happily mark as release
<knome> yep
<elfy> pleia2: no - you have to do this week for xubuntu for me :D
<pleia2> :)
<elfy> knome: where did I manage to get the summary from last week :(
<elfy> oh 
<knome> :D
<elfy> nvm ... 
<knome> yeah
<elfy> mmm 
<elfy> no - I thought there was a template for the meeting page somewhere 
<knome> elfy, there is, it's in the meeting logs :P
<knome> i mean, the meeting minutes
<knome> it should be a copy-paste
<elfy> mmm
<elfy> possibly done something wrong - meetings has the whole irc log
<elfy> oic
<elfy> silly me 
<knome> :)
<elfy> think that's done lol - have a look please knome :)
<knome> yep, looks good tome
<knome> to me too
<elfy> coolio
<mikodo> looks good! :)
<gridcube_> elfy, can i have the link to the testcase?
<elfy> gridcube_: 32 bit upgrade?
<gridcube_> Linux gridcube-Intel-powered-classmate-PC 3.13.0-37-generic #64-Ubuntu SMP Mon Sep 22 21:30:01 UTC 2014 i686 i686 i686 GNU/Linux
<gridcube_> thats 64bit right?
<knome> i686 is 42-bit
<elfy> i686 is 32 bit afaik
<elfy> http://iso.qa.ubuntu.com/qatracker/milestones/325/builds/82112/testcases/1310/results
<gridcube_> k, then yes, 32b
<gridcube_> thanks
<elfy> knome: lol 
<knome> err, yeah, 32-bit..
<elfy> anyway - bed for me while it's still Tuesday :)
<elfy> night all 
<knome> nighty elfy 
<gridcube_> :) bye
<gridcube_> update-manager -d -c first says that im updated and there is a 14.10 release to upgrade, but if i choose to do so the terminal show "searching for upgrades" and tehn "no upgrades found" and closes
<gridcube_> maybe i need to change my sources to the main server
<gridcube_> well its already there
<gridcube_> sorry i dont know what else to do
<gridcube_> well, that was sad :(
<gridcube_> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ubuntu-release-upgrader/+bug/1383943
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 1383943 in ubuntu-release-upgrader (Ubuntu) "update-manager says theres a new release to upgrade, but then fails to find it to install" [Undecided,New]
<Unit193> knome: FWIW, I'd also vote for not yet another channel, and keeping it in #xubuntu.  Of course, #ubuntu+1 can be handy for core issues, but Xubuntu users can benefit from the help in #xubuntu even if it's not the development release.
<gridcube_> ^ +1
<gridcube_> should i try to do do-release-upgrade -p ?
<gridcube_> its not the test case instruction
<gridcube_> welp nevermind -p fails too
<gridcube_> :/
<gridcube_> guess thats that then
<knome> Unit193, yeah, another channel is meh, and #ubuntu+1 is kind of another channel too..
<knome> going to bed, nighty ->
<mikodo> Hi. I want to try testing, "updating" tonight. Is this the procedure?  http://iso.qa.ubuntu.com/qatracker/testcases/1310/info  I will need to download "Trusty" and install it first. I think I read, we are doing the update testing on xubuntu 32-bit, right?
<mikodo> Well, I am going to download "Trusty 32-bit" while I wait for answers. :)
<mikodo> ... and I need to change around partitioning to make room for it.
#xubuntu-devel 2014-10-22
<mikodo> *upgrading testing  I meant
<Unit193> amd64 (64bit): http://iso.qa.ubuntu.com/qatracker/milestones/325/builds/82111/testcases/1310/results and i386 (32bit): http://iso.qa.ubuntu.com/qatracker/milestones/325/builds/82112/testcases/1310/results
<Unit193> You can choose whichever you'd prefer, or have installed already.
<mikodo> Another question. What I am downloading is http://xubuntu.org/getxubuntu/  Should I just then update and upgrade it, then dist-upgrade it?
<Unit193> Testcase should say, but  apt-get dist-upgrade  won't get you to the next release,  do-release-upgrade -d  (or whatever the testcase says) will though.
<mikodo> Oh, what the ...! Should I be upgrading from Trusty or Xubuntu +1
<Unit193> You upgrade from trusty to utopic.
<mikodo> Unit193, Right on the apt-get release-upgrade. Thanks, for clarification on the trusty to utopic question.
<Unit193> Sure, though  apt-get release-upgrade  isn't a command.
<mikodo> I will check out the proper command. Thx
<GridCube> elfy said the net upgrades where the recommended tests to do
<mikodo> GridCube,  Do you have a link quickly available for me to get it from. Obviously, I am new to this
<GridCube> mikodo, for 32 bit http://iso.qa.ubuntu.com/qatracker/milestones/325/builds/82112/testcases/1310/results
<mikodo> Thanks.
<mikodo> Just as Unit193 linked. :) Following links, is really slow with everything because of Transmission download.
<bluesabre> good evening night owls
<Unit193> It's only 9. :P
<bluesabre> its late-ish
<bluesabre> ~
<bluesabre> xnox: thanks for taking a look... good news is that I have no idea why that happens, so that won't be fixed for utopic
<Unit193> And he had a comment about feh too.
<bluesabre> didn't see that one
<Unit193> /lastlog in #xubuntu
<bluesabre> ah, cool
 * bluesabre adds changelog to http://pad.ubuntu.com/FinalReleaseNotes
<bluesabre> knome, ochosi, forestpiskie: added changelog... maybe it will help for highlights
<Unit193> FWIW, LP does have the bugs feature, but it's slow as heck and can barely hold the Open Source claim.
<dkessel> good morning
<dkessel> we have new images ready for testing :)
<elfy> bah
<elfy> knome: dragging bugs to the result form \o/
<elfy> !team | new images landed - seeing more than me on the results would make for a happy elfy - so if you've time in the next 24 hours to do one - thanks :)
<ubottu> new images landed - seeing more than me on the results would make for a happy elfy - so if you've time in the next 24 hours to do one - thanks :): bluesabre, elfy, jjfrv8, knome, lderan, micahg, Noskcaj, ochosi, pleia2, skellat, slickymaster, Unit193
<elfy> bluesabre: thanks for changelog on pad
<elfy> I'll try and spend some time on that today - really don't want to rush tomorrow :)
<ochosi> morning everyone
<ochosi> just caught up on the meeting's notes
<ochosi> bluesabre: are you gonna be around on the upcoming weekend?
<ochosi> that, plus, what are your thoughts on last night's settling on lp over trello?
<bluesabre> ochosi: I'll be in Ohio Saturday, probably around on Sunday
<ochosi> what i'd like to do is a V planning session
<ochosi> so we can set up blueprints asap
<knome> elfy, it works? nice
<bluesabre> I think lp is probably for the better... trello is nice, but its harder to get a clear picture of sectioned todo/doing/done
<bluesabre> (for each team, that is)
<ochosi> ok, good
<knome> updated the processes page with the important translations
<ochosi> just wanted to know whether there were any concerns from your side
<bluesabre> none here
<ochosi> knome: thanks, nice!
<bluesabre> I'd be in favor of doing a blueprints sprint on sunday
<ochosi> ok cool
<ochosi> let's aim for that then
<bluesabre> alrighty
<ochosi> could send an email to team leads about that
<ochosi> btw, has anyone heard from micahg in the "recent" past?
<knome> no
<knome> at least i haven't
<bluesabre> he added me on linkedin a few weeks ago
<knome> huhu
<brainwash> bluesabre: did you ping the sru team? xfce4-weather-plugin is still stuck in -proposed
<brainwash> furthermore, are you going to backport the fix to precise?
<bluesabre> there is not really a way to backport the fix... but we might be able to backport the new plugin.  Completely different APIs and code since precise
<bluesabre> but yeah, I intend to
<brainwash> "Is there an update coming for precise? A locally built package with the same patches works on my system."
<brainwash> last comment
<brainwash> bug 1377612
<ubottu> bug 1377612 in Xfce4 weather plugin "[SRU] Plugin needs updated for locationforecast-1.2" [Medium,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1377612
<brainwash> wait.. maybe he isn't talking about the version in precise
<bluesabre> yeah, the version in precise is broken
<bluesabre> it probably has been for a very, very long time
<bluesabre> brainwash: pinged SRU team
<brainwash> thanks
<knome> 6 months support left for precise.. is it worth it?
<knome> and does it send the right signal
<jjfrv8> should I not be seeing the new Power Manager Plugin on my panel after an upgrade?
<ochosi> jjfrv8: no, the plugin has to be added to the panel manually
<ochosi> those who go trusty -> utopic keep indicator-power
<elfy> hi ochosi 
<ochosi> hey elfy 
<jjfrv8> ok, thanks.
<jjfrv8> I'm going to do a clean install on my laptop tonight to see if the screen dimming thing is upgrade-related or U-related.
<knome> ochosi, is that in the release notes?
<ochosi> knome: might not be there yet, will add it in
<ochosi> ok, added
<elfy> I'll try to spend a bit of time on those later today
<slickymasterWork> ochosi, on Sunday at what time?
<ochosi> just during the day
<ochosi> since we're in different timezones
<slickymasterWork> ok, hopefully not to early in the morning. I'm not what you might call a early bird :P
<slickymasterWork> and I have a friend's wedding on saturday
<ochosi> sure, no, i think it'll be spread out all over the day, depending on when people pop in
<slickymasterWork> good
<elfy> ochosi: should be about off and on all day sunday
<ochosi> elfy: sounds good
<ochosi> thought some early coordination might be good, especially with dev and testing in mind
<ochosi> so that you know which areas are going to be worked on in advance and we can set up a clearer scheule
<ochosi> schedule
<elfy> yep 
<elfy> mostly what I need to do is work with *dev* so I'm able to set schedule with what might be happening
<elfy> dkessel: I don't know if you've used trello and have an account - but I use it to deal with qa, so you're going to need to be able to use it
<elfy> just doing a couple of hardware 64bit tests - as long as all is the same I'll be happy 
<dkessel> elfy: hmm yup I had an account to coordinate QA stuff with balloons - I just need to recover my login then I guess ;)
<elfy> okey doke - once you're sorted let me know the trello name and I'll add you 
<elfy> started the web page release notes from the pad - sure it'll not be right ;) 
<knome> huhu
 * knome looks
<dkessel> hey knome
<knome> hey dkessel 
<elfy> wasn't sure what to do with the changelog - that'll definitely want looking at 
<knome> yeah... maybe we should just drop it from the announcement and keep in the notes
<knome> i guess you still have it in the pad?
<elfy> knome: yea pad is still all there 
<elfy> might be daft - not silly :D
<knome> ok
<knome> do we have a release notes page on the wiki ready?
<elfy> nope
<knome> oki
<knome> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UtopicUnicorn/ReleaseNotes/Xubuntu
<knome> now we do
<elfy> knome: agreed with changelog - just on release notes I think
<knome> hmm, wait
<knome> shouldn't we be pointing to the xubuntu download page
<knome> not the cdimage server?
<elfy> guess so 
<elfy> I've not done anything with urls yet on either
<GridCube> elfy, i tried to test yesterday but it failed to me :(
<elfy> re changelog - perhaps keep removals/additions on the webpage
<elfy> GridCube: I saw that - thanks for doing it anyway - got more than me on there now ;)
<GridCube> P: great
<elfy> also re changelog - keep some of it on the website - default setting changes for example
<knome> ok, i'll back out of the website/wiki so others can poke them :)
<knome> the wiki page is an almost straight copy of the b2 notes, so you'd might want to double-check that
<elfy> knome: I'll not poke the website - don't know why I'd even do that lol
<elfy> knome: I'll poke about with the wiki this evening 
<knome> worksforme ;)
<elfy> knome: consider that poked 
<elfy> respins shortly ... 
<knome> yay
<knome> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karelian_hot_pot
<knome> today's dinner
<knome> hmm, probably more appropriate for -offtopic, but whatever :P
<elfy> lol
<elfy> food is ontopic ... 
 * drc wonders if unicorn is an aceptable substitute for pork/beef/lamb?   Then it might be ontopic.
<drc> looks like respins are up
<drc> This going to be a "rename" for release tomorrow?
<dkessel> what is the record for "number of respins on last day before release"?
<knome> so, as far as we know now, release is targeted at middayish (UTC-4)
<knome> who's going to be around then?
<elfy> utc -4 
<elfy> mmm
<knome> that converts to 16ish UTC :P
<elfy> oh
<elfy> right - I should be unless something odd happens
<knome> ok, good
<knome> i should also be around about that time
<knome> just good to have a backup
<elfy> yea
<knome> and always better if both are around, so we can iron out the last bits if needed
<elfy> yep
<elfy> I guess bluesabre will be at work
<elfy> not sure if ochosi will be about 
<elfy> I'll get some smoketests done in vms for the respins - looking at what's left tomorrow am 
<elfy> but I'm happy as long as they boot/install to mark ready
<drc> well, weather report works...again.
<Unit193> bluesabre, ochosi: Whichever I'm supposed to ping, https://launchpad.net/~unit193/+archive/ubuntu/xfce/+packages?field.name_filter=xfda
<Unit193> Hmm, new hamster too, do we care about that one? :P
<genii> What... is the XFCE getting a new rodent??
<CajunTechie> Hey folks, what is the chan for the loco teams?
<genii> CajunTechie: I'd hazard a guess it's #ubuntu-locoteams :)
<CajunTechie> Oh yeah, I guess that kind of makes sense, huh genii? lol Thanks!
<genii> np
<Unit193> genii: xfce4-hamster-plugin is some strange plugin, not sure if it's really that useful to most people. :P
<genii> Ah, OK
<ochosi> Unit193: thanks, copying in process
#xubuntu-devel 2014-10-23
<jjfrv8> As promised, I did a fresh install of today's latest image on my laptop to see if the screen dimming issue I had was specific to an upgrade.
<jjfrv8> It was not. I had it again after the clean install. Opened bug #1384515
<ubottu> bug 1384515 in xfce4-power-manager (Ubuntu) "Laptop screen dims on logout" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1384515
<holstein> i had one that, at boot, the buttons for the display brightness were moved.. so, occasionally, it would boot dim.. i either had to find the right (wrong) keys at just the right time in the boot, or pull the battery for a reset
<jjfrv8> It's similar to bug #1302025 (which was marked as invalid), but mine is not related to inactivity.
<ubottu> bug 1302025 in xfce4-power-manager (Ubuntu) "xfce4-power-manager does not restore screen brightness on activity" [Undecided,Invalid] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1302025
<jjfrv8> I reinstalled Trusty to make sure I wasn't crazy and just didn't notice it before, but the problem is not there in T.
<Unit193> bluesabre: If you would like to copy it over now.
 * Unit193 subscribes people so he doesn't have to remember to ping anymore. :P
<bluesabre> Unit193: marked for copy
<Unit193> Danke.
<Unit193> http://paste.openstack.org/show/SaRDLd9F0Xubghsbb3LV/ Outdated Xfce 4.12 PPA packages.
<elfy> knome_: the web release note good to go? just in case you're not about later
<elfy> 139 tests reported - no fails, no critical bugs, I'm happy to mark it ready for release when the time comes
<elfy> half of team managed to report 96 of those - but that includes my 44 
<elfy> gridcube__: thanks for following through on that upgrade test :)
<elfy> actually - marking them ready now 
<elfy> ochosi: ^^
<ochosi> elfy: morning
<ochosi> thanks for marking them ready
<elfy> s'ok - I'm never sure how long I'll be out on Thursday's - wiki page is up and ready imo, not sure about xubuntu.org page - looks good to go though
<elfy> nothing left to do now \o/ 
<ochosi> weee
<ochosi> nice :)
<elfy> yep - be glad to see the back of the damned unicorns - time for vampires is almost on us :D
<ochosi> :)
<ochosi> the wiki notes look good
<ochosi> the ones on the website are a bit brief
<ochosi> especially the highlights section
<ochosi> gotta do some work now, but i'll try to take a look at that during the day
<ochosi> elfy: since you still seem to have the edit lock on that page, would you mind adding the unicorn_artwork.png i just uploaded?
<ochosi> thought it'd be a nice touch to do that as we did for 14.04
<ochosi> bbiab
<elfy> I'm not there 
<elfy> and just off to work 
<ochosi> odd, then i guess wp was just slow
<ochosi> i'll add it in
<ochosi> knome_: if you wanna remove that diagonal line on the unicorn's bg in the release page on x.org, i won't be mad at you ;)
<ochosi> i just used the plymouth version of the wallpaper to create that
<knome_> huh :P
<knome> shouldn't the note about the power manager be somewhere where it's more visible?
<bluesabre> good morning folks
<knome> hello bluesabre 
<bluesabre> hey knome
<bluesabre> whats up?
<knome> somebody want to pour time into an answer on #x?
<knome> working for a client..
<bluesabre> ugh, that question again
<slickymasterWork> lol
<slickymasterWork> LinusTorvaldII:hey bluesabre 
<knome> ochosi, unicorn artwork updated
<elfy> hi knome 
<knome> hello elfy 
<elfy> knome: re power manager note - way I see it is it is visible - just not anymore visible than any of the other changes - and if power manager needs to be more visible - why don't other things as well
<knome> because the user needs to do X in order to get the new goodness
<knome> if it was an update that landed automatically - then it shouldn't be lifted
<elfy> will an upgrader be confronted with pinkness?
<knome> should
<knome> aiui
<elfy> don't get me wrong - I'm not saying not - just not all that bothered personally whether we do or don't :)
<knome> i am - i'd want the new goodness
<knome> the panel applet is totally different
<elfy> then change it 
<knome> that's the #1 thing why it's important for me
<knome> i knew you'd say that ;)
<elfy> I did what I always do with power applets - removed 
<knome> yeah, they are useless on a desktop
<elfy> actually 
<knome> fwiw, i don't have any applets visible on my desktop
<knome> i mean
<elfy> is an upgrader going to find that they're reduced to 1 workspace
<knome> indicators
<knome> i don't think that should happen
<knome> but if it is, then we probably should mention that
<elfy> just going to check that 
<knome> thanks
<elfy> knome: and which are you talkiing about wiki and web or?
<knome> kind of both
<knome> i'm editing both right now
<elfy> perhaps the addition of pkexec could do with being a bit more upfront too
<knome> ok, saved both
<knome> the announcement has one known issue that isn't in the notes
<knome> should i copy it over
<knome> it's the vbox one
<knome> don't care what you think (:P), done
<elfy> please - must have missed that - the workround is on the wiki 
<elfy> ha ha ha 
<knome> do we want to lift pkexec up all the way to highlights?
<elfy> well I think it's quite important - we do finally have a way to do things without gksu so people don't need to guess and install gksu anymore (for those 2 at least)
<elfy> ok - upgrade is cooking now - should have answer shortly 
<knome> ok
<knome> maybe we should write a shortish paragraph about the pkexec thing right after the pink paragraph
<knome> Items in the newly themed alt-tab dialog can now be clicked with the mouse
<knome> what package brings us that?
<knome> ochosi?
<knome> is there a source that explains why pkexec instead of gksudo?
<knome> Starting with Xubuntu 14.10, you should use pkexec instead of gksudo for running graphical applications with root access from the terminal for improved security. The Xubuntu team has prepared and shipped the necessary pkexec policy files for all default applications in the Xubuntu installation that need them.
<knome> that good?
<knome> is at http://pad.ubuntu.com/FinalReleaseNotes if you want to pokey it
<knome> hey jjfrv8 :)
<elfy> poked
<knome> copying over www and wiki
<jjfrv8> hey, knome
<elfy> hi jjfrv8 
<jjfrv8> hola
<elfy> btw jjfrv8 - hat's off to you - (ignoring me ) you get the testing cookie - thanks a whole bunch :)
<knome> no cookie for knome :(
<elfy> 25 reports you did for this milestone
<elfy> knome: nope - no testing cookie for you this time :)
<jjfrv8> just keeping my promise to the former xpl :)
<knome> ok, the pad now also has the html that we should drop at the download page
<elfy> :)
<elfy> knome: ack 
<knome> humm
<knome> why don't we follow the usual post slug format
<knome> do we link to the release announcement from somewhere?
<elfy> sigh ... 
<elfy> did trusty still have 2 workspaces by default?
<knome> afaik yes
<elfy> mmm
<elfy> so upgraded trusty to utopic loses a workspace
<elfy> booting a live trusty
<knome> mhm
<knome> i guess it's not lost if you have manually changed the value to something else
<elfy> knome: and no idea what slug format means :)
<knome> lol
<knome> see -release
<knome> it was /xubuntu-14-10-release before
<elfy> aah
<elfy> ok - so trusty has 2 workspaces - utopic upgrade removes one
<knome> elfy, i'm considering the following:
<elfy> THAT would drive me up the wall if I didn't know - would break my workflow and more importantly the devilspie rules
<elfy> so - depends how many do that type of thing
<knome> "Please note that if you haven't changed the default configuration values for things that are getting a change for 14.10, the configuration will be updated to the new values."
<knome> or sth
<knome> that's clunky, but the message i want to communicate is there
<elfy> you want me to double check that - set trusty to 3 workspaces and see what happens on upgrade?
<knome> if you please would
<knome> but i'd imagine that in that case, the setting should stick (because it's non-default)
<elfy> k - bit longer this time - got no trusty left to upgrade from :p
<knome> aww
<knome> "Please note that changes in the default configuration affect all users who haven't changed the default configuration."
<knome> that's much better
<elfy> yep - saves me pasting mine :)
<elfy> mmm 
<elfy> odd - black background in vb with trusty image
<elfy> knome: looking at the download updates in pad - is http://torrent.ubuntu.com/xubuntu/releases/trusty/release/desktop/xubuntu-14.10-desktop-i386.iso.torrent" right?
<elfy> 64 same 
<elfy> shouldn't it be http://torrent.ubuntu.com/xubuntu/releases/utopic/release/desktop/xubuntu-14.10-desktop-amd64.iso.torrent
<knome> yes
<knome> fixed
<knome> ta
 * knome prepares some coffee for the afternoon sprint
 * elfy even has some coffee today
<elfy> knome: quick question re download page - are we adding this 14.10 to the existing rather than replacing?
<knome> definitely adding
<elfy> k - just checking :)
<knome> i can do that if i'm around, and i have no reason why i wouldn't
<knome> d'oh, fail
<knome> no milk in the house
 * knome shrugs and drinks the coffee black
<elfy> this is why I have coffee black - mate NEVER had milk and I don't like black tea :p
<knome> heh
<knome> i use milk because it allows me to drink the coffee faster (because it isn't so hot)
<knome> i like the black coffee taste too though
<elfy> dash of cold water?
<elfy> just saying ... 
<knome> nah
<knome> that's not the same, it'll affect the coffees strength :P
 * elfy can't even see the download page in wp
<knome> seriously? :P
<elfy> oh 
<knome> it's called "Get Xubuntu"
<elfy> that's cos I was looking for downloads ... 
<elfy> ok - so we've got a white box for utopic and green for trusty - am I reading that right?
<knome> yep
<knome> the point is: green for lts, white for regular
<knome> green pops out more
<knome> *POP!*
<knome> like that
<elfy> ok 
<elfy> ha ha ha 
<elfy> ok - so trusty set to 5 workspaces
<jjfrv8> elfy, I'll race you
<elfy> this machine is getting slow
<jjfrv8> my upgrade is running now. I added a third workspace manually
 * elfy needs new job - though I suspect a new amp and speakers would be priority :p
<elfy> mine is too - 5 spaces
<knome> elfy, priority over a new job? :P
<elfy> heh
<elfy> grub installing here jjfrv8 :)
<jjfrv8> I think you're winning :(
<elfy> lol
<elfy> knome: ok so utopic has 5 workspaces - so that wording ^^ would appear to be good 
<knome> yep
<elfy> jjfrv8: guess you lost :D
<knome> ok, now the question
<knome> the changes in the default settings are only mentioned in the wiki
<knome> should we just drop that there too, or should we mention that there are changes in the default configuration in the announcement
<jjfrv8> elfy, you must've stolen all my bandwidth
<knome> that must be it, interatlantic bandwidth theft :)
<elfy> make mention in the announcement - Changes to default settings all users who haven't changed the default configuration, see release notes for more detail"? 
<knome> elfy, sounds good to me
 * knome goes edit
<elfy> no need to replicate everything on announcement I think - general note should be enough imo
<knome> yep
<knome> done
<elfy> adding note to wiki then
<knome> mhm
<elfy> ok 
<elfy> they've not been bothering much with the common infrastructure stuff have they
<elfy> some random powerpc thing and one of the old vb bugs lol
<knome> heh
<knome> yeh
<knome> looks like there is movement towards the release :)
 * knome releases the announcement edit lock just in case
<elfy> :)
<knome> client just called so if he calls again at release time... :P
<elfy> so - as far as notes are concerned now - publish 14.10 and edit downloads 
<knome> yep.
<knome> that should be it
<elfy> ok
<knome> hmm, wait
<knome> also edit the help & support page
<knome> for the supported releases list
<knome> we have this all on the processes :P
<elfy> ok
<elfy> lol
<knome> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Processes#Update_on_release-1
<knome> so what about screenshots :P
<knome> i can do the press page, the download page and the help&support page
<elfy> press page is out of date - who'd that XPL :)
<knome> heh
 * knome edits
<knome> done
<knome> and updated sean's decription too
<knome> description too...
<knome> better not edit much of the text any more, start to drop too many typos..
<elfy> yea
<elfy> so what about screenshots - bit late in the day for mucking about with those
<knome> tbh, i don't consider a bad thing if we even skip the screenshots for now
<knome> not sure if we should be showing 14.10 screenshots on the front page at any point since we are suggesting to use 14.04 anyway
<elfy> I'd agree with that
<knome> so they could just fall into the screenshots page at some point when we have them
<elfy> we really need to get a handle on these PPAs as soon as we can and then get that onto processes 
<knome> yep
<knome> elfy, do you think the better place for the mention about the conf would be with the default conf list?
<knome> i can move that if you agree with me
<knome> but i guess there are arguments for keeping it where it is as well
<elfy> you talking about the note on the wiki?
<knome> yep
<knome> because if the user went as far as to read the notes... i'd expect them to at least scroll through that
<elfy> I did think about putting it with the list - but then thought that perhaps most people would concentrate at the top
<knome> yeah, but the top == the announcement
<elfy> yea
<knome> i'd really love statistics about where people go first
<knome> the release announcement mail points to the announcement
<knome> and maybe the notes should too
<knome> at the beginning
 * knome shrugs
<elfy> move it if you want - not too bothered :)
<knome> too much coffee, cogs in brain are turning too fast
<elfy> perhaps underneath Changes to Xubuntu Default Settings
<knome> yeah, that's where i was imagining it :)
<knome> moving
<elfy> that is at least quite close to the top :)
<knome> edited
<elfy> ok
<knome> also added a pointer to the announcement
<knome> for completeness, or sth
<knome> it doesn't really hurt to link back to the website :)
<knome> or if somebody tumbles into the wiki and are confused, point them to the right direction
<elfy> yep - not got any sort of issue with pointing to the website ever :)
<knome> that should be the #1 outlet for end-users anyway
<elfy> yea
<knome> or that's how (pseudo)wise people have imagined it :P
<elfy> ok so I am of the opinion now that anymore fiddling with the 2 main 14.10 pages is fiddling for the sake of it 
<knome> yeah, that sounds about it
<knome> except when you say that, i'm sure we'll find an awful mistake in either of them ;)
<elfy> knome: LOL
<knome> another question...
<knome> generally,
<knome> how do we want to handle the front page stuff
<elfy> website?
<knome> do we want to keep on "sticking" some news there?
<knome> yeah
<knome> if yes, i could look how to do that in a way that maintains as much sanity as possible
<knome> i was even thinking
<knome> actually,
<knome> let me just poke the staging site...
<knome> (^ see? too much coffee)
<elfy> I'd wonder if we could have something where the releases are constant and then somewhere that links to the latest post elsewhere
<knome> ?><?php dynamic_sidebar( "xubuntu_footer" ); ?><?php
<knome> haha.
<elfy> voodoo ... 
<knome> spot the stupidity
<knome> that reads as;
<knome> PHP CODE ENDS HERE, PHP CODE STARTS HERE, [actual php code], PHP CODE ENDS HERE, PHP CODE STARTS HERE
<knome> what if i just drop the php tags?
<elfy> explodes?
<knome> nah
<elfy> I dunno :)
<knome> makes the line more readable :P
<knome> and loses 14 unneeded characters..
<elfy> well - I would guess that is always good 
<knome> yeah
<knome> that's just silly
<elfy> but it is a guess :p
<knome> yep
<knome> oh hmm
<knome> i'm lost
<knome> :D
<knome> as usual...
<elfy> :)
<knome> yeah, very clever me
 * knome pats himself on the head
<elfy> :)
<ali1234> wordpress \o/
<elfy> knome: what I meant ^^ http://en.zimagez.com/zimage/scanneddocument2.php
<knome> elfy, yeah...
<knome> well, maybe not "latest news"
<knome> i'd like us to have more control over that
<knome> but essentially yes
<elfy> that *sort* of thing I'd think useful
<knome> elfy, http://xstaging.lallinaho.fi/
<Pwnna> can anyone help me with cryptsetup here?
<Pwnna> i'm encountering a strange issue after upgrading to 14.10
<knome> elfy, isn't that better than having to stick with the same links/titles as the articles?
<knome> this way we can lift up other things as well, and link to several articles/places in the same box
<knome> even if we lose the capability to make the whole box clickable
<knome> and this way we can also order the boxes as we want
<ali1234> having actually made a website very much like that, i agree with knome
<knome> :)
<ali1234> if you try to autogenerate an area like that, you hit problems making all the boxes the same size, while also not cutting off the preview mid sentence
<ali1234> see latest news section on : http://drumoff.tv/
<knome> that's not the problem
<knome> or - we have the same problem with this style
<knome> but it's sorted out
<ali1234> oh, what's the question then?
<knome> well it's more about whether we'd like content pulled from "last 3 articles in category X" or simply maintaining that manually
<knome> which allows us to do other stuff than articles too
<ali1234> yep, that is slao a problem... look at that "empty" article on my site
<knome> and have some variation how the links are placed inside the boxes etc
<knome> yeÃ¥
<knome> *yep
<ali1234> that's the kind of thing that happens when you just say "last three"
<knome> though it's just an editing issue
<ali1234> i have a mechanism where you can hide articles like that from that area, but the editors don't understand how to use it
<ali1234> or are too lazy to bother
<ali1234> *shrug*
<knome> yeah, just include articles from category X :P
<ali1234> yeah, i wish my users knew what categories were
<ali1234> however, they don't even understand how to post of wordpress, so i have to pull all "blogs" from facebook
<ali1234> but enough of my complaining
 * knome makes sure multiple rows work as well
<knome> ali1234, hah, yeah, tell me about it... :)
<knome> hmm hmm
<knome> need some more css
<knome> but yeah
<knome> theoretically that works
<ali1234> on the other hand, the rotating banner at the very top is made with a dynamic side bar and a custom "slide" widget type
<ali1234> so they can just drag and drop to reorder whatever they want
<ali1234> they seem to get on well with that
<knome> yeah
<knome> yeah, much better now :)
<elfy> that kind of thing knome yea :)
<elfy> was afk 
<knome> np
<dkessel> can we drop the official translation requirement to 60%? ;)
<knome> nope :P
<dkessel> :p the remaining 40% are so time consuming :p
<dkessel> just kidding
<knome> you have 6 months until 15.04 ;)
<elfy> knome: that'll be a green light then I guess
<knome> yeppers
<elfy> published
<knome> download page updated
<elfy> woot
<knome> help&support updated
<elfy> not seeing a change on download page
<knome> press page updated
<knome> elfy, ctrl+shift+f5?
<knome> i mean, R
<knome> :P
<knome> should be *under* LTS
<elfy> oh yea - see it now 
<knome> updated front page
<knome> tweeted
<elfy> I know :D
<knome> getting retweets quickly :)
<elfy> :)
<knome> did the usual strikeouts for out of sync servers @ http://xubuntu.org/getxubuntu/
<elfy> thanks knome
<knome> np
<knome> anything else?
<elfy> #xubuntu topic?
<Unit193> Yep.
<elfy> mute elfy in #xubuntu when people come complaining about bugs :p
<knome> #x topic done
<elfy> can't think of anything else
<knome> elfy, seriously? i have lot of things in my mind
<knome> ;)
<elfy> too much coffee
<elfy> seriously can't think of anything else - but I've not had anything to do with updating stuff previously :)
<knome> yep
<ochosi> evening folks
<knome> hey ochosi 
<knome> if g+ isn't updated yet, do that :P
<knome> i don't even bother looking since i can't update it anyway
<ochosi> i'll take a look
<ochosi> btw, thanks for posting the release notes on x.org
<ochosi> there are some small formatting issues thoguh
<ochosi> thoguh
<ochosi> gah
<ochosi> though
<knome> are there?
<elfy> well we did what we could boss ;)
<ochosi> it seemed to me at least
<knome> oh...
<knome> there's some large text
<ochosi> yeah
<knome> i'll fix that
<ochosi> pkexec thing
<knome> oh, you're at it :P
<ochosi> done
<knome> ta
<ochosi> crap, webupd8 has a nicer changelog than we do :0
<ochosi> maybe we should just copy it over from them ;)
<ochosi> http://www.webupd8.org/2014/10/ubuntu-flavors-1410-officially-released.html
<knome> eww
<knome> i prefer our
<ochosi> well xubuntu is #1 there and has by far the longest changelog
<ochosi> congrats team, i say
<knome> yes, congrats and thanks
<ochosi> woot, gtk3 supports mir now
 * ochosi never thought that day might come
<knome> :)
<ochosi> even less so when qt doesn't officially support it
<elfy> 31 % of available tests for the whole cycle got a report 
<elfy> which could have been worse - but was inflated by the 350% for beta and 278% for final :)
<ochosi> not bad
<ochosi> we can try to set a realistic goal for 15.04
<ochosi> maybe 50% or something
<elfy> 29 people did them - but I've not differentiated between me and someone who might do 1
<ochosi> cool
<ochosi> you have a lot more contributors than the artwork team ;)
<elfy> ha ha ha 
<ochosi> (or any other team for that matter)
<elfy> yep
<elfy> and still it's not enough for me :D
<ochosi> greedy goblin!
<elfy> oh yes :)
 * knome steals elfy's steak and ale pie
<elfy> :|
<elfy> lol
 * ochosi mumbles "my precious..." and crawls back into his cave
<elfy> actually - just :|
<ochosi> elfy: you're just lucky the next release doesn't start with G
<elfy> ha ha ha 
<ochosi> hihi, tiny shitstorm on g+ in the italian community about the pink highlights
<knome> MAMMA MIA
<ochosi> :D
<knome> well isn't that what they say?
<ochosi> it is, well played, sir
<ochosi> i ridiculed them in my best italian (in a respectful way though)
<knome> :P
<knome> link plz
<ochosi> "you discourage installing xubuntu in a professional environment" etc
<Unit193> "Try pressing the 'off' button..."
<ochosi> knome: it was shared privately with me (and it's all in italian)
<knome> how is pink any less professional than blue?
<knome> aha
<ochosi> yeah, *sigh* ...
<Unit193> knome: Eh..  But I don't see them using a non-LTS.
<ochosi> Unit193: that was what i replied (after poking fun at them)
<knome> ochosi, molto cacca e pipi qualora
<knome> :d
<ochosi> huhu
<knome> one would just hope people would be able to take things not so seriously though
<knome> not just this one
<ochosi> yeah, ofc
<ochosi> it reflects this consumerist approach a bit too, that "we as a team" have a "responsibility" against the "consumers"
<ochosi> as if any of us would get a dime from that
<knome> mhm
<knome> ultimately, we as a team do have a responsibility over the product...
<knome> referring to the quality standards set by canonical to protect ubuntu's reputation
<knome> but that's a very different expectation that any of our users would have...
<knome> i mean, a consumer wouldn't whine about a non-professional highlight color
<ochosi> yeah, but in terms of colors, canonical didn't set the bar very high ;) (remember the s***-brown of the badger)
<knome> they'd whine about something not working
<knome> whining about bad hardware support is so much more accurate and correct
<knome> it's not something we can affect, so it's not really fair, but it's a very valid point
<ochosi> yup
<knome> and the tweet i mentioned a few days ago (about bluetooth working better than anywhere) weighs so much more than somebody whining about a color
<knome> at least for me
<ochosi> indeed
<Unit193> ochosi: Or the scantily clad wallpapers? :P
<ochosi> haha
<ochosi> yeah, i sometimes regret not having backed those up ;)
<knome> i think our highlights are still quite appropriate
<knome> it's not like we put in a pink that'll kill your eyes if you have a good monitor
<knome> or something illegible
<ochosi> yeah, i'd defend it any day
<knome> yeah.
<knome> i really think it was a good idea to not make the wallpaper too pink
<knome> that would have been over the top and annoying
<knome> and wouldn't have proven anything
<ochosi> yup
<elfy> turquoise for vampire 
<ochosi> +100
<knome> can be something towards turquoise for sure
<ochosi> i really don't mind if we cycle colors
<knome> we've played with those hints already
<ochosi> but then we have to draw an "appropriate" mascot for the slideshow again
<elfy> just get someone to monkey about with the slideshow ... 
<elfy> sorry :p
<knome> :P
<ochosi> huhu
<knome> i know $some wouldn't like it, but i think it'd be a great thing to put a collage of developer faces on one slide some day.
<knome> and i know $some won't like this comment much either, but no silly avatars, real faces :P
<ochosi> yeah, that's somewhat true
<ochosi> i mean i agree it could be a nice thing to do *and* i guess some won't like it
<knome> yep
<knome> i don't have high hopes on it or don't feel bad if we didn't do it, just saying that would be a nice thing to do for all of us
<ochosi> but it'd make the whole thing a bit more personal
<knome> of course
<knome> much more personal
<knome> that would, imo, strenghten the "community" feel over the consumerist idea too
<Unit193> Or the terror, based on some faces...
<elfy> no mirrors in my house - little one hates that
<knome> :P
<bluesabre> it's ok, ochosi really is a lego person
 * bluesabre is late to the party, as usual
<knome> it's ok; congrats to you too
<ochosi> bluesabre: hey, you got something against us lego people, brotha?
<Unit193> ochosi: Can I pop your head off? :D
<ochosi> Unit193: only if you put an equally good-looking one back on
<ochosi> and those are hard to come by
<Unit193> Then nothing wrong. \o/
<bluesabre> haha
<ochosi> anyway, congrats again to everyone and good nighty
<bluesabre> seeya ochosi
#xubuntu-devel 2014-10-24
<Pwnna> how do you get around the virtualbox black screen?
<Pwnna> or corrupted screen?
<pleia2> Pwnna: check out the release announcement (it has instructions) and other things worthy of note: http://xubuntu.org/news/14-10-release/
<Pwnna> pleia2: thanks!
<Pwnna> i missed it!
<pleia2> sure thing :)
<pleia2> it's been a real pain during virtualized testing this cycle, was a shame we couldn't get it fixed :(
<Pwnna> i see fixed released
<Pwnna> so if you apt-get upgrade it should be fine?
<Pwnna> also => has anyone have trouble with the kernel that came out two days ago? I can't boot anymore with an encrypted partition
<pleia2> looks like the person who marked it fix released believes it was fixed in the daily yesterday, but I don't know who they are
<pleia2> (and their launchpad info is...sparse)
<Pwnna> okay
<Pwnna> another quick question. i noticed xubuntu-restricted extras
<Pwnna> is that what i'm supposed to be installing instead of ubuntu-restricted-extras?
<pleia2> it's the same thing
<Pwnna> i see slightly different packages installed, though
<pleia2> Source: ubuntu-restricted-extras
 * pleia2 shrugs
<Pwnna> is there like an equivilant of a commit log for xubuntu so i know what changed?
<Pwnna> i manage a couple of boxes and it's sometimes a pain to upgrade versions as i have conflicting provisioning
<pleia2> it's only per package
<pleia2> no "all changes in all of xubuntu" massive changelog
<pleia2> changelogs for a package will live in /usr/share/doc/PACKAGENAME
<pleia2> I need to get some rest
<pleia2> have a good $time_of_day :)
<Pwnna> night
<bluesabre> Pwnna: heading to bed myself... but we have a pretty comprehensive changelog on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UtopicUnicorn/ReleaseNotes/Xubuntu
<bluesabre> you can view individual debian/ubuntu changelogs here http://packages.ubuntu.com/utopic/xfce4-power-manager (replace with the package name)
<bluesabre> heading to bed for real now
<Unit193> pleia2: THe source package can be basically anything though, ubiquity-slideshow-ubuntu contains the Xubuntu one too.  But yeah, don't think there's really much different between those two.
<elfy> Found Ubuntu Vivid Vervet (development branch) (15.04) on /dev/sda8
<Unit193> Not that early I'm not. :P
<elfy> lol
<elfy> not in it atm - installed it and got it in grub 
<elfy> every cycle I tell myself I'll sort out some other way of what to install in a clean one - and each cycle I resort to memory :)
<knome> bluesabre, tweeted your 14.10 article from @Xubuntu
<elfy> morning knome 
<knome> hey elfy
 * elfy really wants to see 1 ppa that he can use for updates etc this cycle :)
<knome> 1 ppa... that might be too much to ask:P
<knome> but yeah, it should be mostly coordinated
<elfy> I figure that at the least I should be updated to things *dev* are expecting to release *soon*
<elfy> I guess that'd be the staging one
 * knome drops the PPA descriptions to the processes page for completeness
<elfy> bit hard to see the wood from the trees on the pad
<knome> ^ hope that'll help
<elfy> knome: done or doing?
<knome> doing
<elfy> awesome sauce
<knome> the wiki just went slow
<knome> it was bearable until now
<knome> 500 Internal Server Erorr
<knome> *Error
 * knome sighs
<knome> ok, done
<knome> updating the wiki pages for vivid
<knome> done
<elfy> knome: thanks - can see processes change
<knome> great
<elfy> knome: though I'm still not sure which of those two people will send things I need to see to though :)
<knome> staging
<knome> extras is just "nice things to have"
<elfy> cool - now we just need to make sure people use it lol
<knome> like "hey, there's this new cool piece of software, you might want to use this"
<elfy> yep - understand now 
<Unit193> ^ Mainly mine. :P
<knome> elfy, and kind of pre-staging
<knome> "let's see if we want to start the process of getting this included in the repos"
<elfy> and where's that?
<knome> ^ that's the extras PPA
<Unit193> Generally not one you'd be interested in. :P
<elfy> guessed :)
<bluesabre> elfy: early in the cycle, things that land in debian sync their way over to xubuntu automatically.  We can add more daily things to -staging if you'd like though
<bluesabre> we can even add daily xubuntu-default-settings to staging
<elfy> bluesabre: mostly it's about *our* things as far as I'm concerned 
<elfy> we don't test 99% of what we install - other than making sure it doesn't all go bang :)
<elfy> all I'm interested in QA being interested in is the stuff we've got a modicum of control over 
<bluesabre> ok
<elfy> so yea - things like xubuntu-* :)
<bluesabre> alrighty, I'll set daily xubuntu- and shimmer- packages to the -staging ppa
<elfy> that would be a good start :)
<knome> wait
<knome> i'm not sure if that's how we imagined the PPA
<knome> i think it's fine to do that
<knome> but if we do that, we should change the description of the PPA
<knome> well, nvm
<knome> i guess the current description is fine
<knome> just wasn't my mindset ;)
<bluesabre> yeah, if it's xubuntu-/shimmer- we clearly plan on a nearby release
<knome> i was considering the daily aspect
<knome> but the description covers that
<knome> though i guess there's still that question
<knome> should -staging be a "high traffic" PPA
<knome> or should we separate the daily builds
<knome> probably not
<elfy> frankly I don't care what we call it - what the description is - all I need is that we have a ppa that DOES include the things that *we* are updating and having them in one place so we can test things as they arrive
<knome> as long as it doesn't turn into a daily buildfest of everything we seed ;)
<knome> i'm just considering the practicalities
<bluesabre> that'd probably be more of a daily breakfest
<knome> if using a staging PPA requires me to download 400 megs of updates, it's almost as bad as just downloading the new ISO :P
<knome> (daily, that is, it doesn't matter if that happens now and then)
<elfy> if the ppa is pointed at dev then how many people will see it now - and for that matter between now and March?
<bluesabre> yeah, that makes sense
<elfy> if the ppa isn't pointed at dev - then we need one that is I guess
<elfy> if someone wants to add a ppa we use to test dev stuff into a trusty install that's their issue to deal with
<knome> elfy, i'm not worrying about the end-users... to begin with, i'm worried about the team willing to do the updates daily
<knome> or bi-daily, or a few times in a week
<knome> it's a bit meh if it's a huge load every time
<elfy> well ... 
<elfy> how many -team ran utopic ? how many are running it now? how many even knew what it looked like at the beginning of cycle?
<bluesabre> a good portion of team run with the stable until pretty late in the cycle
<knome> well,
<elfy> frankly I would wonder about anyone but me seeing what's going on with vampire for months
<knome> shouldn't the staging PPA be for several releases anyway?
<knome> if it is, people who run a non-development version can help as well
<knome> but they probably don't want to do it if it involves downloading hundreds of megs of updates every day
<bluesabre> the systemd transition is planned for the first half of the cycle... I might avoid running as my fulltime install until that lands
<elfy> then it's just pointless and I'll be back to adding ppas all over the place and having no idea what's going on - again
<bluesabre> I think we've done a good job of consolidating the PPAs
<knome> elfy, i think you're getting me wrong
<elfy> knome: possibly ;)
<knome> what i'm saying is that
<bluesabre> if anybody does a new build we want, we copy it to one of our three official PPAs
<knome> since all of -team is not going to run the development version
<knome> it's better to allow them to test the new *packages* with their versions
<knome> which is why the staging PPA should have packages for other releases as well
<knome> BUT
<knome> i don't think it should turn into a daily buildfest that means we'll get hundreds of megs of updates daily
<knome> it's not going to do that currently
<knome> i'm not opposed to adding xubuntu-default-settings
<elfy> right
<knome> but we should consider what's the scope of that PPA
<knome> eg. i don't necessarily want all xfce packages there
<knome> or "half of gnome"
<knome> because we're preparing a small bugfix for those packages
<knome> or sth
<bluesabre> I need to head to work, but can you guys paste the result of this discussion over to http://pad.ubuntu.com/xubuntu-v-dev ?
<elfy> I want a ppa that has up to date ANYTHING that we care about in it 
<elfy> I don't want last months menulibre - I want todays
<knome> elfy, would it be too bad if it was 2-3 PPA's?
<elfy> what's the point in testing that ?
<knome> theoretically, that is
<bluesabre> for things like that... I release menulibre, then upload it to debian, then it syncs to xubuntu in 24 hours
<elfy> there should be a today ppa - with all that we care about
<knome> define "all that we care about"
<knome> everything that is seeded in xubuntu?
<elfy> no - the things we've got control over 
<knome> right, so i think that's what you'd call staging
<elfy> I couldn't care less about something I've got because xubuntu is based on ubuntu
<knome> or what i'd call staging, that is
<bluesabre> bbl
<knome> hf bluesabre 
<elfy> cya later bluesabre 
<knome> elfy, just let's not make that a bloated PPA with too much stuff
<elfy> knome: as I said I don't care what it's called - or what it's description is - as long as it has up to date things 
<knome> so it's less of a thresold to actually start using it
<elfy> knome: yea - I don't want a ppa with half an iso in it :)
<knome> and as bluesabre said, we probably want to land stuff to debian where appropriate
<knome> like menulibre
<knome> those packages are naturally not available for people not running the development version... but that's another question
<elfy> can we please not get sidetracked on packages that land elsewhere 
<elfy> you know what I'm talking about
<knome> we're not sidetracking; you mentioned menulibre previously
<elfy> as an example - choose another one 
<knome> lol
<knome> mugshot then
<elfy> it's pretty obvious what I'm looking for here
<knome> is that even in debian?
<elfy> oh good lord
<knome> sure
<knome> to me, it's ok if some packages lag behind a few days if they're going through to debian and synced back
<knome> and the reason why i'm saying this is
<knome> that i don't think those packages necessarily need to be in -staging
<knome> which i'm sure you agree with
<elfy> depends what package you're talking about 
<knome> pretty much anything that will go to debian anyway
<elfy> does xubuntu-default-settings go anywhere?
<elfy> do any of the xubuntu-* go anywhere?
<knome> sure, they can go to the daily PPA
<knome> probably not xubuntu-docs
<knome> well, even that depends
<knome> probably not as daily builds :)
<elfy> I;m not sure I've got the patience to do PPAs again :|
<knome> but we can certainly use -staging for staging big changes there
<knome> and before, when i said daily PPA, i meant the -staging PPA...
<knome> so just one PPA still
<elfy> I just really am having a hard job understanding why it's not obvious that I'd want to have the latest theme/settings/versions to test 
<elfy> no-one else tests the whole shebang in team
<elfy> if it's that hard to do or understand then I'll not bother and I'll just test what I get from the standard repos
<bluesabre> we have daily builds for everything in the various project PPAs (menulibre-developers, parole-developers, shimmer-developers), we can also have then build to -staging.  Or just the various themes and xubuntu things. At the same time, we don't want to rely exclusively on the PPAs because then we might not notice if some things are never actually uploaded to xubuntu.  We'll have to do a careful balance
<bluesabre> just food for though
<bluesabre> t
<bluesabre> out again, bbl
<elfy> cya 
<elfy> let's see if I can break nvidia and vbox today
<elfy> I guess I'm just still confused about the PPA situation - I thought that we were going to deal with it all 
<elfy> brb
<ochosi> oh wow, lotsa backlog
<ochosi> i'll catch up later today, out for lunch
<knome> bluesabre, agreed
<knome> off ->
<elfy> well nvidia isn't broken :)
<pleia2> Unit193: ah, thanks :)
<ochosi> bluesabre: awesome post on 14.10!
<ochosi> hey sergio-br2 
<sergio-br2> hey ochosi :)
<ochosi> how're things?
<elfy> evening ochosi 
<ochosi> oh hey elfy :)
<sergio-br2> everything fine ochosi, and you?
<ochosi> quite good
<ochosi> had an important deadline today
<ochosi> so i'm exhausted/relaxed
<ochosi> can't really decide which one it is :)
<elfy> awesome :)
<slickymasterWork> lol
<slickymasterWork> join the club ochosi 
 * ochosi signs the papers and joins slickymasterWork's club
<slickymasterWork> welcome aborad
<slickymasterWork> *aboard
<elfy> or abroad - depends which country this club is in :p
<ochosi> sergio-br2: i saw there were quite a few new icons in elementary, but dan is a lazy bastard and only does a single size mostly...
<ochosi> hehe
<sergio-br2> heh
<slickymasterWork> on top of it all I managed to screw my Verocius Velociraptor box
<elfy> \o/ 
<ochosi> sergio-br2: so yeah, if you feel like it again, join me in scaling icons ;)
<elfy> well done slickymasterWork :)
<sergio-br2> i need to comeback to elementary-xfce
<sergio-br2> ok
<slickymasterWork> bah 
<sergio-br2> i think i have some icons here, that i didn't commit yet
<ochosi> slickymasterWork: wait, no animal coitus talk in this channel!
<slickymasterWork> ah ah ah
<ochosi> that said, i hope he didn't scratch you
<ochosi> sergio-br2: oh, in that case please push them :)
<slickymasterWork> the other way around
<ochosi> sergio-br2: i'd like to scale the new trash icons, those look nice. but lots of work...
<sergio-br2> work in this icon theme seems infinity :)
<ochosi> yeah
<ochosi> well we can always decide to stop
<ochosi> it won't really break much
<ochosi> but yeah, with gtk3 evolving and gnome needing new icons every release, i guess maintenance never ends
<slickymasterWork> ERROR: Kernel configuration is invalid.";
<slickymasterWork>  include/generated/autoconf.h or include/config/auto.conf are missing.";
<slickymasterWork> Run 'make oldconfig && make prepare' on kernel src to fix it.";
<slickymasterWork> >_<
<elfy> well I never need to do any of that ....
<slickymasterWork> that's 3.18rc1 for you elfy ;)
<elfy> :p
<slickymasterWork> can't get more cutting edge than that :P
<slickymasterWork> \o/
<slickymasterWork> fixed
<slickymasterWork> back in business 
<slickymasterWork> running home
<slickymasterWork> cy later guys ->
<brainwash> elfy: any news why the qt theming is broken all of the sudden?
<brainwash> I does not look like it's xubuntu's fault I'd guess
<knome> ok, all mirrors on the download page are now synced
<ochosi> brainwash: i think it's not broken, it just doesn't use the gtk+ look by default
<brainwash> ochosi: not anymore, maybe it can be fixed somehow for xubuntu
<ochosi> not anymore?
<ochosi> what i meant was: qt apps don't use the gtk look by default, but if you install qt4-qtconfig and set the style to gtk it works
<ochosi> so it's not broken in this sense, it just uses the wrong setting
<brainwash> it seems to work fine in 14.04, people just started to complain this recently
<brainwash> http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=2249765
<brainwash> bug 1382741
<ubottu> bug 1382741 in xfce4-settings (Ubuntu) "Some apps are displaying a very old styled theme as oppose to greybird" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1382741
<ochosi> yeah, i know
<ochosi> as i said...
<ochosi> i noticed it too, but only on monday, so it was too late for 14.10
<ochosi> also, i noticed it and forgot about it again, cause i was a bit too busy
<brainwash> ah, ok
<brainwash> it's a candidate for the known issues list
<ochosi> yup, indeed
<brainwash> can the list be edited after release?
<ochosi> i guess so, never had to do that so far
<ochosi> knome: any experience with editing the known issues list after the release?
<elfy> our bit of it?
<elfy> ochosi: ^^ or the main that we just include
<ochosi> our bit
<elfy> brainwash: I've never really had qt apps look ok without using qt config to set it to use gtk+
<elfy> ochosi: just edit it - it's our wiki
<elfy> brainwash: it never worked fine in trusty - at least now with qt stuff I had
<ochosi> wait, but this one isn't editable: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UtopicUnicorn/ReleaseNotes/Xubuntu
<elfy> yes it is 
<ochosi> oh right
<elfy> at least it is here 
<ochosi> i was just confused by "immutable page"
<elfy> oh - you not logged in?
<ochosi> i wasnt for some reason
<elfy> :)
<ochosi> added that line
<ochosi> brainwash: was there a bugreport for this already?
<brainwash> I've linked it
<ochosi> oh, whoopsie
 * ochosi is tired
<brainwash> mmh, so it is a new bug after all? elfy?
<elfy> what is?
<ochosi> anyway, gotta head out for dinner, will check in again later
<ochosi> this probably needs more investigation tomorrow
<brainwash> qt theming
<elfy> cya later ochosi 
<ochosi> yup, cyalater
<brainwash> bye
<elfy> qt theming didn't work for me properly in utopic, trusty and saucy - but then I only use clementine 
<elfy> so no - it's not new - at least not to me
<brainwash> I noticed that more and more people talk about the broken theme in qt apps
<brainwash> and they all use 14.10
<elfy> perhaps people are just using more qt apps 
<brainwash> like vlc? people are using this one for ages already
<elfy> brainwash: I never really take a lot of notice of that type of issue - if we seeded it I might
<brainwash> adding a small hint for xubuntu users should do the job
<elfy> yep - I never even thought about mentioning I always have to install qt config tool tbh :)
<brainwash> ok then :)
<elfy> posted on forum thread
<brainwash> awesome, thanks
<elfy> oh - that bug I posted in with the qt4 config thingy ... 
<elfy> also that's 2 issues I guess
<elfy> knome: so did you mean the release notes? 
<knome> no
<elfy> yep - saw :)
<knome> :)
<elfy> knome: the online stuff - our xubuntu-docs ?
<elfy> because it's in there
<knome> right..
<knome> maybe we should rethink the wording
<knome> that section immediately thinks that the user wants the latest regular release
<elfy> yea was just looking - if nothing else we can talk about more recent releases :p
<elfy> yep - I'd say two distinct sections - LTS and non I would have thought
<knome> yep
<knome> something like that
<knome> i'll file a bug
<elfy> yep
<elfy> I can look at writing it perhaps - but I'm not sure I've got whatever docs use 
<elfy> or if not I can pad it for whoever does fix it
<knome> bug 1385479
<ubottu> bug 1385479 in xubuntu-docs (Ubuntu) "Review/-write section about upgrading" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1385479
<elfy> confirmed that
<knome> thanks, and added a comment
<elfy> oh - lordy - that's in an xml file - not playing with that ;)
<knome> lol
<knome> well
<knome> docbook is relatively easy
<knome> as long as you just follow the example (which is carefully set in the docs), you are fine
<elfy> so's wiring a jumbo jet ;)
<knome> heh
<knome> i don't mind if you write it in plaintext in a pad, i can easily convert that to docbook
<elfy> knome: if there's no rush I'll look at it - if not I'll plaintext it in a pad
<knome> of course there is no rush
<knome> the next release is in 6 months
<knome> ^ famous last words before filing freeze exception paperwork
<elfy> ok - well I'll work on it - probably do a plaintext version first then not have to 'learn' at the same time :)
<knome> yep :)
<knome> fwiw, you might want to assign that bug to yourself once you start working on it
<elfy> just did it 
<knome> otherwise you might be doing duplicate work with jjfrv8, who's been picking these bugs up like a master
<elfy> yep 
<knome> and also, if you want to try poking docbook, feel free to mark me as the reviewer for a merge proposal and i'll go through it
<knome> altogether just trying to build the docs is a good sanity check because it'll tell if you the syntax is all wonky
<elfy> docbook means nothing to me - I assume it's not editing xml files directly
<knome> docbook is a form of xml
<knome> xml is a very broad term for documents that have different tags and attributes and content for them
<knome> docbook specifies its own set of valid tags
<elfy> ok - so how do you poke docbook? or do you mean edit that file I've pulled?
<knome> that's one way to do it
<knome> and there are also editors that can do it
<knome> but i don't believe in such things myself :P
<elfy> heh
<elfy> I guess if you do it manually - you'll learn more 
<elfy> anyway - plaintext first :p
<knome> yep
<slickymaster> elfy, if you want I can share that burden with you
<elfy> I'd like to carry it for a while :)
<slickymaster> ok docbook wise, if you need help, just ping
<knome> we can come up with something else for slickymaster :P
<slickymaster> :)
<slickymaster> at your service
<elfy> ha ha knome 
<Unit193> https://packages.qa.debian.org/x/xfce4-session/news/20141024T124946Z.html most interesting of the recent uploads.
<bluesabre> hm
<Unit193> Yes, the last bit about the postinst being the most interesting.
<ochosi> ahoj crew
<ochosi> good idea with the docs
<ochosi> the extended upgrading info makes sense
<slickymaster> yes
<ochosi> knome: just as a "note to self", should we carry the greybird-a11y version forward to 15.04?
<knome> yep
<ochosi> i'd really like to see it, i just don't see time to do it right now
<knome> yep
<ochosi> especially as gtk3.14 will be a rather biggish change
<knome> mhm
<ochosi> satya said he wants to completely redo the theme in SASS
<knome> hrr
<ochosi> might be more sustainable, but initially lotsa work...
<knome> didn't the decide those markups aren't supported anyway in later gtk versions?
<knome> or do i just remember wrong
<knome> redoing in sass...
<knome> not too much work
<ochosi> what markups?
<knome> well SASS and stuff
<ochosi> wait, the adwaita theme (==gtk default now) is in SASS atm
<knome> right
<ochosi> they just ported things over from css, it'd be totally weird if they at the same time planned to deprecate it (but who knows)
<knome> then i'm maybe misremembering
<ochosi> any idea where you picked that up?
<knome> no
<knome> i'll tell you if i bump into it again
<knome> anyway
<knome> doesn't that mean an addiotional dependency?
<knome> because obviously it needs to be preprocessed
<knome> also a potential performance question?
<ochosi> not sure
<knome> or is it just preprocessed on build/installation time?
<ochosi> i guess gtk3 processes it
<ochosi> not sure tbh, i haven't looked into it *at all*
<ochosi> frankly, i'm not too into it
<knome> https://git.gnome.org/browse/gnome-themes-standard/diff/themes/Adwaita/gtk-3.0/parse-sass.sh?id=349d83bfc2ce52faab7de0b73835151cc65c8100
<knome> i would have been very surprised if gtk parsed sass.
<ochosi> yeah
<ochosi> i guess that the idea is to keep to code more maintainable by remaining "in touch" with adwaita
<knome> right
<knome> so my quick thoughts:
<knome> parsing is meh.
<knome> if we do it build-time, real-time/quick changes are gone
<knome> if we don't, it's a performance issue
<knome> sure, it can make the theme a bit smaller
<knome> migrating to SASS just to keep "in touch" with adwaita is a bit silly thought too
<ochosi> we can always write a parser that translates SASS from adwaita to css though, right?
<knome> any SASS code is rather easily convertable to CSS anyway, so if we decide to pick an update, we can get it even if adwaita was in SASS
<ochosi> then keep in sync with that
<knome> of course there is already a SASS->CSS parser
<knome> SASS wouldn't exist without one, because nothing directly supports it (afaik)
<ochosi> the most practical issue is that it's sorta up to satya, because he mostly maintained our gtk3 variants
<knome> so in a way SASS *is* the preprocessor that processes the SASS definitions to CSS
<knome> to be honest, i don't think it's such a huge issue we/he is making it
<ochosi> well if he's *making* it, it's up to him to decide
<knome> heh
<knome> let me give you an exampel
<knome> example too
<ochosi> sure
<ali1234> sass --update -r custom_functions.rb . <- so this adds a build dep on sass and ruby?
<knome> http://paste.ubuntu.com/8662945/
<knome> ali1234, probably don't need the ruby build dep if we don't use the funky custom functions
<knome> hmm, i'm lacking one }
<knome> but whatever
<knome> ochosi, ^ you get the idea
<ochosi> sure, i get it
<ochosi> but i also get why people would think that one is more readable and in this sense more maintainable than the other
<knome> but while that looks useful
<knome> it's not too useful in all situations
<ochosi> and since gtk3 breaks theming every release cycle...
<knome> that's one of the best examples
<ochosi> right, what are you aiming at exactly? :)
<knome> well just showing the difference
<ochosi> (sorry, i was already tired in the afternoon)
<knome> and kind of telling it's easy to convert to SASS and back to CSS
<knome> it isn't a huge load of work
<knome> i'd say an hour or so
<knome> per theme
<ali1234> you missed out that sass/less support constants
<knome> well, maybe a bit more..
<knome> ali1234, that's supported in GTK already
<knome>     border-color: shade(@theme_selected_bg_color, 0.8);
<knome> we have rows like that
<knome> so we're not gaining much in that respect
<knome> reading the changelog, it seems like adwaitas funky ruby scripts had something to do with mixing colors
<knome> but didn't look too closely into that
<knome> https://git.gnome.org/browse/gnome-themes-standard/diff/themes/Adwaita/gtk-3.0/custom_functions.rb?id=349d83bfc2ce52faab7de0b73835151cc65c8100
<knome> provide custom sass functions for gtk equivalents
<knome> - generally sass has equivalents of gtk functions for mixing color in the case of the spinner though, the currentColor only lives in the context of gtk runtime. gtkalpha() is a way to provide alpha() in gtk context rather than SASS alpha() 
<knome> ^ that
<knome> and yeah, sass seems to require ruby anyeay.
<knome> *anyway too
<ali1234> is it not written entirely in ruby?
<knome> i have no idea.
<knome> https://git.gnome.org/browse/gnome-themes-standard/diff/themes/Adwaita/gtk-3.0/gtk-dark.css?id=c10689c7b2dc1352e7b329f58c9f653e5682dca5
<knome> ^ ochosi: i want to cherry pick that commit to that file
<ali1234> it is
<ali1234> whaaaaat is that?
<knome> a fail
<ochosi> heh
<ali1234> overwrote the input with the output?
<knome> just proves what can happen if SASS definitions fail
<ali1234> which failed, and then commited it?
<ochosi> well, committing bs can always happen though
<knome> ali1234, i have no clue how that happened, but it's a fail
<knome> ochosi, of course
<knome> it just seems to bring one layer of more complexity
<ochosi> which is odd, as it's supposed to reduce complexity
<knome> even if it took away one layer of complexity away elsewhere
<ali1234> oh i see what happened
<knome> well of course there's one more layer of work to do because the SASS will need to be processed to CSS
<ali1234> they've tried to put all @imports inline with a script
<ali1234> but that one has failed
<knome> maybe i should go to sleep, i start seeing images in the irssi window
<ochosi> heh, sounds like it
<knome> oki, i'm off 
<knome> ttyl
<ochosi> night knome 
#xubuntu-devel 2014-10-25
<Unit193> bluesabre: lp 1368557, lp 1357217.  I suppose we/I/someone should prep that.
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1368557 in apt-offline (Ubuntu) ""Something is wrong with the apt system." (v2)" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1368557
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1357217 in apt-offline (Ubuntu Trusty) "Something is wrong with the apt system." [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1357217
<Unit193> bluesabre: https://sigma.unit193.net/source/apt-offline_1.3.1ubuntu0.1.dsc
<Unit193> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/StableReleaseUpdates
<bluesabre> Unit193: cool, suppose I should try to work on that nowish
<Unit193> bluesabre: That's the upload prepped, just needs the paperwork. :P
<Unit193> bluesabre: And, you should have packageset.  Do you need anything else from me/
<bluesabre> Unit193: I think that's it, thanks for doing the hard work :)
<Unit193> Hah. :P
<bluesabre> Unit193: want to add any ideas to http://pad.ubuntu.com/xubuntu-v-dev ?
<Unit193> "Get ready for systemd which will land in the first half of the cycle" Pardon?  New stuff in staging, so it's not staging as much as daily.  I'm sure I'll continue to dump stuff in extras. :P
<Noskcaj> bluesabre, Could you review the xfce sync requests on http://reqorts.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/sponsoring/ please?
<bluesabre> Unit193: https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel-announce/2014-October/001116.html
<bluesabre> Noskcaj too, "Autosyncs will be running shortly, so give a little patience to the buildd network as they work through the queue, and no need to rush to sync your favourite package, it'll get there."
<Noskcaj> these aren't autosyncs
<bluesabre> ah, gotcha
<bluesabre> then yeah, will review those shortly
<Noskcaj> ty
<Unit193> bluesabre: That's a SRU, for trusty. ;)
<bluesabre> Unit193: apt-offline, right? or talking about something else now?
<Unit193> Naaah, though I can give you more! :P
<Unit193> bluesabre: So, which systemd stuff are you talking about?
<bluesabre> Unit193: Adam's comment: " - Steady progress on the systemd transition, with a goal to switch over in the first half of the cycle."
<Unit193> Aha, missed that bit. >_<
<Unit193> :P
<Unit193> 215 already landed.
<bluesabre> Unit193: signed and uploaded your package
<Unit193> \o/
<Unit193> queuebot:#ubuntu-release: Unapproved: apt-offline (trusty-proposed/universe) [1.3.1 => 1.3.1ubuntu0.1] (xubuntu)
<bluesabre> gettin' things done!
<Unit193> bluesabre: Can you think of anything I should be thinking of then?  We're supposed to be "considering" extras for inclusion, right?  Nothing we want to include?
<bluesabre> I'm just looking for ideas now, and you usually have a good idea of whats happening in various development channels
<Unit193> 0_o
<bluesabre> I have crazy suggestions like considering viewnoir and geary as possible new apps
<Unit193> Ewww, -1 -1 -1! :P
<bluesabre> haha, not a fan of either?
<Unit193> Less so of the second.
<bluesabre> it works well now, if not for missing contacts management or pgp support
<bluesabre> but its super-new and likely to change at any time, and thunderbird is always pretty reliable
<Unit193> There's those, it seems to be pretty tied to Gnome, seemed pretty basic, etc, etc.  And, look at my QA page, and guess which one I use. :P
<bluesabre> :)
<bluesabre> viewnior opens pretty darn quickly
<bluesabre> "Set as wallpaper" doesn't seem to support xfce though, maybe I'll submit a patch for that
<Unit193> ristretto isn't so bad, gpicview isn't bad except the bugs, thus the first is better. :P
<Unit193> And it's Xfce! :P
<bluesabre> woo!
<Unit193> http://paste.openstack.org/show/DfSCXL0KSdgsuQMb0iuE/ FWIW.  Not very good as those stats could be off, and a few of those were recently uploaded.
<bluesabre> hello thunar-dropbox-plugin
<Unit193> bluesabre: Got the dalies started for Varmint?
<Unit193> !info thunar-dropbox-plugin utopic
<ubottu> thunar-dropbox-plugin (source: thunar-dropbox-plugin): context-menu items from dropbox for Thunar. In component universe, is optional. Version 0.2.0+dfsg1-0ubuntu1 (utopic), package size 7 kB, installed size 66 kB
<Unit193> Already covered. :P
<bluesabre> :)
<Unit193> Hopefully it's in your packageset.
<bluesabre> going to update daily ppas now... wonder if I can tell things to rebuild for vivid without a re-upload
<bluesabre> maybe a copy to the same ppa with different release
<bluesabre> sweet, that does work
<Noskcaj> Anything i should be working on?
<bluesabre> I have nothing planned yet.  Updating PPAs and daily builds as needed
<Unit193> !info systemd vervet
<ubottu> 'vervet' is not a valid distribution: extras, kubuntu-backports, kubuntu-experimental, kubuntu-updates, lucid, lucid-backports, lucid-proposed, partner, precise, precise-backports, precise-proposed, stable, testing, trusty, trusty-backports, trusty-proposed, unstable, utopic, utopic-backports, utopic-proposed, vivid, vivid-backports, vivid-proposed
<bluesabre> !info systemd vivid
<ubottu> systemd (source: systemd): system and service manager. In component main, is standard. Version 208-8ubuntu8 (vivid), package size 1364 kB, installed size 6400 kB (Only available for linux-any)
<Unit193> !info systemd vivid-proposed
<ubottu> Package systemd does not exist in vivid-proposed
<Unit193> :P
<Unit193> Oh yes it does.
<bluesabre> ok, most of our PPAs should be updated as needed for vivid tomorrow
<bluesabre> or even in a few minutes
<Unit193> Not rebuilding the packages yet, nothing much has changed and when it does that'd require a new upload.
<Pwnna> is there a way to reload xfwm4 so it picks up changes to .config/xfce4/xfconf/xfce.../xfwm4.conf?
<Unit193> killall xfwm4 ?
<ali1234> xfwm4 --replace
<Unit193> Because of user sessions, xfwm4 will respawn.
<Pwnna> doesn't work
<Pwnna> i'm moving the close maximize minimize button
<Pwnna> xfwm4 --replace doesn't pick up those settings
<Pwnna> lightdm restart does
<Pwnna> actually that's not even guarenteed
<Pwnna> basically i'm trying to change     <property name="button_layout" type="string" value="CHM|O"/>, except automatically
<Pwnna> and if i changed in the xml, it won't take effect
<ochosi> morning folks
<elfy> hi ochosi - bit more relaxed today?
<ochosi> sure
<ochosi> had a busy week, slowly fading into weekend mode
<elfy> \o/
<ochosi> bringing that over from -ot, since it's more -dev.. geary was intended as tb replacement
<elfy> ok - pop3 support?
<ochosi> i've used it for a while, it's quite good in some aspects
<ochosi> pop3? ofc not :)
<ochosi> or at least i think not
<elfy> well lots of people still use pop3 
<elfy> unfortunately
<ochosi> weird, i don't know anybody
<ochosi> giving them a reason to switch might be good ;)
<ochosi> anyway, on a more serious note, it has some advantages
<elfy> British Telecom unless they do now
<ochosi> (speed, low on depends etc), but it also has some backdraws
<ochosi> for me, the lack of an addressbook and pgp are the two biggest ones
<ochosi> not sure i could recommend it based on those two things not being there
<elfy> oh - well no need for me to hear anymore then :)
<ochosi> i mean i personally use it, but i'm not sure it's best for default
<ochosi> well i encourage you to give it a try though, it might develop into something we might wanna ship a bit later
<elfy> apparently BT does do imap 
<ochosi> there you go, BT transitioned into the 2000s
<elfy> don't blame me - my cynicism is well founded re them :D
<elfy> currently ALL my *buntu mail is pop3
<ochosi> wowza
<elfy> I'll look at that later on today 
<elfy> but anyway I digress - no addressbook nor pgp would mean a massive -1 from me 
<Unit193> Strong -1 indeed.
<elfy> not changing to imap "you need to be aware that any local folder structure you might have set up within POP will be lost when you make the change"
<elfy> well for better or worse - I added the staging ppa now
<elfy> seems to be the only one with vivid :)
<ochosi> hmm, i gotta check what version of gnutls is in vivid
<ochosi> but i guess same as utopic
<ochosi> might have to move forward soon, claws-mail isn't working anymore due to SSL3 POODLE bug
<elfy> no version in vivid currently seemingly
<ochosi> bluesabre: have you seen that recent docs view of evince yet? i never noticed that... could be fun to add something like that for parole
<bluesabre> ochosi: haven't seen it
<bluesabre> you guys make my job easy, geary is not ready for xubuntu :)
<elfy> hi bluesabre :)
<elfy> bluesabre: thanks for getting the staging ppa vivid ready :)
<bluesabre> elfy: np... there might be a few packages I'll need to rebuild so they are vivid-ready... I'll take care of those tonight
<elfy> okey doke
<bluesabre> I'll also update branches to get ready for vivid, unless ochosi wants to do it
<bluesabre> clone trunk to make a utopic branch, etc
<elfy> am I going to need any other ppas's - shimmer etc?
<elfy> really don't want to have to use more than 1 tbh - but will if I have to
<bluesabre> depends on what we decide, we can easily add shimmer/artwork/settings daily builds to -staging as well
<bluesabre> I just need the go/nogo
<elfy> perhaps include this while chatting tomorrow
<bluesabre> yup
<elfy> and I opened synaptic to do something and now I can't remember what ... 
<bluesabre> :)
<elfy> it wouldn't be so bad if it was longer than 2 minutes ago lol
<bluesabre> :D
<bluesabre> anyway, gotta run, heading out to Ohio LinuxFest today, so got a bit of a drive ahead of me
<bluesabre> seeya
<elfy> safe driving :)
<elfy> cya
<elfy> ahah I remember now 
 * ochosi is playing with thunar to get a better free-space indicator in the props dialog... http://www.zimagez.com/zimage/screenshot-2014-10-25-133057.php
<elfy> ooh - shiny :)
<elfy> hi brainwash 
<brainwash> hey elfy 
<brainwash> I'm still curious.. was apport disabled during the utopic beta phase?
<brainwash> usually we get quite few apport reports
<brainwash> thunar, tumbler, and so on are known to crash a lot :)
<elfy> apport does get turned off 
<elfy> can't remember when
<elfy> though I did think it's at release
<Unit193> bluesabre: Oh right, the s/evince/evince-gtk/ thing.
<knome> should be at release, maybe somebody forgot to turn it off. poke -release maybe?
<elfy> brainwash: :)
<ali1234> ochosi: someone is reporting black background on messages in evolution again, wasn't that fixed?
<ochosi> ali1234: that happens time and time again, they use lotsa custom widgetry
<ali1234> http://postimg.org/image/jkgss9l0f/
<ochosi> yeah, those things have happened previously
<ochosi> frankly, i've never found a real solution
<ochosi> one could look into evolution's source-code and try to find out what's the offending part
<ali1234> this is with 14.04
<ochosi> and stock evolution?
<ochosi> or newer version
<ali1234> afaik yes
<ali1234> just things from repos
<ochosi> supposedly that issue was fixed (brainwash just pasted the link over there)
<brainwash> fixed in greybird
<ali1234> over there?
<brainwash> #xubuntu
<ali1234> oh, well, it was reported in #ubuntu-uk :)
<brainwash> this link https://github.com/shimmerproject/Greybird/issues/40
<brainwash> maybe the same guy :)
<ali1234> and i'm not currently on #xubuntu, unless the same person is reporting it there?
<brainwash> is it safiyyah?
<ali1234> yeah
<ali1234> so is this just an issue of not being fully up to date, or did this fix never land in 14.04?
<brainwash> I have no clue
<brainwash> was the fix every applied to bluebird, that is the question
<ochosi> i haven't maintained bluebird as actively in this respect
<ochosi> simply because it's not our default theme and time is limited
<elfy> knome: started and even had a go with the voodoo :p http://pad.ubuntu.com/upgrading
<ochosi> elfy: looks great!
<ochosi> hope you don't mind that i messed a bit with some of the formulations
<elfy> ochosi: not in the slightest - it was all *stuff* to me :D
<elfy> oic 
<elfy> I thought you meant all the <para> stuff :D
<ochosi> :)
<ochosi> looks good though, i read through the non-markup part now
<ochosi> i think that'll be quite useful for people
<ochosi> maybe we even get more testers with that info out there
<elfy> which I've not really got any idea it it's right - though I *think* it's nearly right at least :D
<elfy> synced the marked up bit
<elfy> ochosi: as far as testing is concerned - every little helps :)
<elfy> another jpg opens in gimp bug ;)
<brainwash> how is it different?
<brainwash> oh, do you mean another bug report (dupe)?
<elfy> yea lol - marked it dupe
<brainwash> ok
<brainwash> it can be fixed, not sure if bluesabre has added it to his todo list
<elfy> no idea - once we've got blueprints up we can start listing bugs we can deal with again
<brainwash> sru team should stop slacking and release the updates for xfce4-weather-plugin and xfdesktop4 (trusty)
<brainwash> =S
<brainwash> I am not worried about the open with bug in utopic, but the quality of the lts release should be increased, delaying package updates does not help
<elfy> probably not, but unless you've got a magic wand - they get done when they do ;)
<elfy> done for Saturday - night all :)
#xubuntu-devel 2014-10-26
<Pwnna> does anyone know how to configure XF86AudioMicMute? It's not by default configured
<Pwnna> i can detect the button, but it is definitely not configured
<elfy> dkessel: I commented on your comment at trello
<elfy> use a pad - with a sensible name for it perhaps :)
<dkessel> elfy: ok, will do
<dkessel> elfy: http://pad.ubuntu.com/xubuntu-qa-v-autopilot
<elfy> ta
<ochosi> morning folks
<ochosi> and happy blueprinting day
<knome> is the umbrella blueprint set up already?
<ochosi> man, i just got up!
 * ochosi needs coffee
<knome> haha, me too, but who knows
<knome> i can set it up as well if you are too lazy
<dkessel> morning ochosi
 * elfy thinks if the XPL wants team leads to do theirs the least the XPL can do is the main one - and theirs too :D
<knome> ;)
<dkessel> hmm i found a bug while trying to verify my german translation of the xubuntu-docs.... has any of you tried to do the steps for using ndiswrapper this cycle? :p
<elfy> what's ndiswrapper ... 
<dkessel> the configuration tool won't open from the settings manager... "gksu" not found
<knome> elfy, a wrapper that allows you to use windows drivers with linux
<dkessel> "Xubuntu supports a system known as NDISWrapper. This allows you to use a Windows wireless device driver under Xubuntu."
<zequence> better to use polkit
<zequence> That tool might need to be repackaged
<knome> dkessel, file a bug against xubuntu-docs and start working on it ;)
<zequence> synaptic is an example for how to do that
<zequence> (using polkit instead of gksu)
<knome> we've already shipping pkexec policy files for some apps
<knome> *we're
<dkessel> so you suggest filing a bug against ndisgtk? and then adding a policy file in some package ?
<zequence> The policy file should he addeed to the package itself
<dkessel> ah ok
<knome> and if the documentation tells you to use gksu, then you should file a bug against the docs to change that part too
<dkessel> knome: no it just tells the user to click the icon, so that's fine I guess :)
<zequence> probably the desktop file has a startup command with gksu
<knome> right
<knome> yep.
<knome> and hey zequence :) what's up?
<zequence> knome: Not much right now. Thinking about eating breakfast. You?
<knome> sameish thoughts
<ochosi> aaahh, nice, much betterr now....
<ochosi> morning dkessel 
<elfy> seed gksu ... just saying :p
<dkessel> i am on trusty currently. does anybody want to verify bug 1385841 for utopic?
<ubottu> bug 1385841 in ndisgtk (Ubuntu) "ndisgtk should use pkexec instead of gksu" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1385841
<ochosi> https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/topic-v-flavor-xubuntu
<brainwash> the report does not mention why gksu should not be used
<ochosi> team leads, start your engines ^
<knome> created and linked the sub-blueprint for website
<ochosi> artwork is done too
<ochosi> oh, qa too
<ochosi> nice
<ochosi> this is going much better than anticpated :)
<ochosi> i'll set up features next
<ochosi> and linked
<elfy> bug fixes done and linked
<elfy> qa blueprint work items added
<knome> and please propose the series goal for vivid
<knome> so once we are ready setting the blueprints up, we can easily ask the release team to accept them to allow them to show up in status.ubuntu.com
<ochosi> only marketing missing now
<knome> i can set that up
<ochosi> all of mine are proposed for vivid
<knome> done
<ochosi> oh, just wanted to propose i do marketing so we're done... :) ty knome 
<knome> now send a mail for the -release team and list the blueprints and ask them to approve them
<ochosi> elfy: what about linking trello in the qa blueprint? that way ppl can find it
<ochosi> knome: release team or release ml?
<knome> ml
<ochosi> k
<ochosi> thought so :)
<knome> yep, sorry for being ambiguous
<ochosi> np
<elfy> ochosi: yep - not sure if you got mail re qa trello - it's public now
<ochosi> elfy: yeah, i received it, that's why i meant you can actually link to it there too
<elfy> thought as much - just checkiing :)
<elfy> so while there's a bunch of us mulling about - can we please get some resolution on staging PPA 
<elfy> if it's staying with what it has - what other PPAs do I need to be as up to date as possible - shimmer etc I'm thinking of here
<brainwash> ali1234: does bug 1379176 affect the normal Xfce session (xubuntu-free user account)?
<ubottu> bug 1379176 in xfwm4 (Ubuntu) ""Clear" button has no effect in Settings > Window Manager > Keyboard tab" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1379176
<elfy> ochosi: don't forget to approve the blueprints - at least I assume you should be doing so
<ochosi> elfy: yeah, shimmer is a good idea for the artwork
<ochosi> the daily one
<ochosi> i missed out on the PPA discussion a bit
<elfy> :)
<ochosi> what was the problem with staging exactly?
<knome> balancing doing enough daily builds and not becoming a massive daily buildfest with hundreds of megs of update every day
<elfy> not a problem per se , I just really wanted there to be one 
<elfy> and if not at least some idea of the hundreds of extra PPAs the only person in team that's needing to have to see what's going on
<ochosi> i'd actually like to set some goals on what apps we're gonna work on
<ochosi> and then switch on daily builds for those
<ochosi> but we need bluesabre around for that
<elfy> shimmerproject/+archive/ubuntu/daily <- that one?
<elfy> really all these other ones should be listed somewhere 
<ochosi> yeah, we should make a list...
<ochosi> re: blueprints approval: i'm only approving blueprints that have content
<ochosi> e.g. for marketing there's nothing to approve yet
<elfy> eg for QA there is :p
<ochosi> i think just adding the "approved" tag to any blueprint makes it sorta meaningless
<ochosi> yeah, and it's approved too ;)
<elfy> says approver none :)
<elfy> mmm 
<ochosi> not anymore
<ochosi> but yeah, i didn't look there cause all the other blueprints had that filled out already
<elfy> ok - so I'm so quick to set wallpapers and themes and icons to what I normally use
<elfy> I'd best set them to default or any changes to shimmer ppa daily will not affect me lol 
<ochosi> probably, yeah ;)
<elfy> heh
<ochosi> although wallpaper doesn't matter
<ochosi> as long as you use greybird and elementary-xfce-darker, that's it
<elfy> yep
<ochosi> then you should notice any breakage/missing icons
<elfy> yep
<elfy> installiing that ppa now
<ochosi> just FYI, as soon as V gets a gtk3 update, the themes will all be broken
<elfy> okey doke
<ochosi> we don't have support for gtk3.14 yet
<elfy> you can probably approve https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/xubuntu-v-bugs too - that won't get content till we start filling in bugs
<ochosi> indeed, done
<elfy> awesome - I'll leave you in peace now for a while then :D
 * elfy is off for a bit fiddling with the qa processes rewrite
<elfy> knome: did you see http://pad.ubuntu.com/upgrading ping ?
<knome> yes
<ochosi> cool, well thanks elfy!
<ochosi> that was a nice sprint
<knome> will have to take a real look at that $some_time
<knome> bookmarked
<elfy> yea cool 
<elfy> http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/xubuntu/daily-live/current/
<elfy> \o/ 
<ochosi> oh nice
<elfy> missing from tracker - but so is everything atm 
<dkessel> ...and that image requires switching to vt1 and back to vt7 with virtualbox....
<elfy> dkessel: it will - there's been no fix yet
<dkessel> elfy: i am installing ;)
<elfy> dkessel: I upgraded on Friday morning :)
<knome> i guess i should update soonish
<knome> ...to 14.10 ;)
<elfy> heh
<knome> ochosi, how do you plan using https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Roadmap/ ?
<elfy> as a general thing re pkexec - what's going to be our plan here
<elfy> ndiswrapper might not have gksu - but if we get involved in each and every thing that might need dealing with - we'll never end
<elfy> shouldn't that be a general ubuntu thing to deal with?
<brainwash> isn't it a general ubuntu thing?
<brainwash> ubuntu does not install the gksu
<brainwash> package
<elfy> I'd assume so - was just thinking given the discussion earlier
<brainwash> ideally the gksu package should be removed from the repo completely
<brainwash> to complete the pkexec transition
<knome> elfy, we can kickstart the process to get it done; eg. file bugs when gksu is used instead of pkexec
<knome> and i think that's where our responsibility ends
<elfy> yep
<elfy> works for me 
<ochosi> knome: haven't given that much thought tbh
<ochosi> why, do you have a proposal? :)
<ochosi> i mean i liked how we did in trusty
<ochosi> although i also don't mind if ppl put their stuff directly into blueprints
<ochosi> but i guess the spec has the advantage of keeping things on a single page
<knome> just asking
<knome> i don't think there is one right way
<knome> but otoh, if we aren't using it, then let's not pretend we are :)
<ochosi> sure
<ochosi> i actually wanted to wait for bluesabre to chip in about features and stuff and then decide what to do with it
<ochosi> frankly, it's also a bit cumbersome to use and slow, so i'm not entirely sold on the wiki
<elfy> amen to that 
<bluesabre> good morning folks
<ochosi> oh wow, speak of the "devil"
<elfy> :)
<elfy> morning bluesabre 
<bluesabre> (:c
<bluesabre> time to catch up on backlog
<bluesabre> ok, caught up
<bluesabre> for any packages we don't ship, but maybe use and should have pkexec policies, make a list somewhere. We can update the packages and get them sponsored... that's relatively painless
<ochosi> good idea
<bluesabre> I'm going to do a better job of monitoring xubuntu-v-bugs this cycle, so anything that needs a fix (thunar for instance), link it
<ochosi> could even just submit bugreports and add them to the bugs bp
<elfy> I linked 3 to that bluesabre 
<bluesabre> also, xfdesktop and thunar both use glib, does this bug affect xfdesktop as well?
<bluesabre> I started this pad for development, we can use it to put together ideas for dev this cycle, http://pad.ubuntu.com/xubuntu-v-dev
<bluesabre> or any other considerations
<ochosi> bluesabre: you could link to that in the features bp
<ochosi> just so that we have common places to look when we "lose" links to stuff
<bluesabre> oh, this is just for today.  Going to port over to a dev blueprint as we finalize today
<ochosi> oh right
<ochosi> wrt upower 0.99, theoretically we should be safe
<bluesabre> elfy, great, thanks
<ochosi> iirc all xfce components received patches, so theoretically, things should work
<bluesabre> right
<ochosi> bluesabre: what i mentioned earlier wrt evince, you just have to open it on its own
<ochosi> without file
<ochosi> then you see the recent-view
<bluesabre> ok, I'll take a look at that
<ochosi> it's kinda neat
<ochosi> haven't checked out the code for it yet though
<bluesabre> ok, I see
<ochosi> i mean we could also just do an icon-view of all media-files in the recent menu
<ochosi> or something like that
<bluesabre> yeah
<bluesabre> there might even be a new widget implementing that
<ochosi> yeah, possibl
<ochosi> e
<elfy> bluesabre: as far as planning what's going to be worked on will affect when we call for testing OR we can just extra call as and when 
<elfy> I just need to know what *we* would prefer early enough
<bluesabre> right
<bluesabre> I'll probably do some dev releases of some components only to -staging, its hard to give a specific time frame when these will be complete though
<elfy> ok so plan B :)
<elfy> I'll do a schedule and then we can shove extras in as and when :)
<bluesabre> I'll try to target early milestonesn as much as possible
<elfy> won't be doing that till I've seen release schedule
<elfy> okey doke 
<bluesabre> ochosi: what's the general consensus among xfce-dev about getting 4.12 out by the end of the year?
<knome> bluesabre, aren't you two of the few, and you both want it out :)
<bluesabre> I want it out, but I work on very few components
<bluesabre> if I release xfce4-settings 4.12.0, Nick will return, but only to slap me
<ochosi> bluesabre: no consensus
<knome> bluesabre, but you should still do that, if that's ready for the 4.12 release
<ochosi> nick is away a few more weeks he said
<bluesabre> knome: its... almost there
<ochosi> so i think it's unrealistic to assume a release will happen this year
<elfy> is Mir going to start affecting us anytime soon? 
<knome> not sure if it's something for -docs actually
<knome> ochosi, there's no docs blueprint!!
<bluesabre> yeah, definitely more docs-y
<elfy> slickymaster's surfing ;)
<knome> i'll do that.
<knome> docs blueprint created
<bluesabre> knome: thanks, added some details to the pad, will add more later
<elfy> ochosi: what do you suggest as a permanent(ish) home for the QA incentive details? 
<slickymaster> elfy, actually I'm actually with a terrible headache and a bit hungover
<elfy> slickymaster: lol 
<slickymaster> but I see there's already a lot work done
<elfy> yea 
<slickymaster> let just catch up on what's been made so far
<slickymaster> + me
<slickymaster> do we already have any clue of when the new NetworkManager will land?
<slickymaster> Unit193 ^
<bluesabre> ochosi: ping
<elfy> heh - just about to point somewhere similar :)
<elfy> ochosi: tried to make http://pad.ubuntu.com/xubuntu-qa-v-cycle less officialese
<elfy> and knome - you could have a look when you've time too 
<knome> sure, will do at some point
<knome> (again...)
<elfy> yep 
<slickymaster> knome: thatnks for covering for me and drafting the docs blueprint
<slickymaster> *thanks
<elfy> bluesabre: so basically I assume you're happy that I'll do a testing schedule like normal and then fit things in as and when they need it?
<knome> slickymaster, no problem
 * slickymaster is a bit sick :P
<bluesabre> elfy: yeah, and I'll coordinate with you when there is testing to be done
<bluesabre> where is the team image/hardware/testing page again?
<ochosi> bluesabre: pong
 * ochosi needs to read up on the backlog
<bluesabre> ochosi: Ubuntu dev folks patch away Headerbars on evince... but why not simple scan?
<bluesabre> pretty sure they ship both
<knome> bluesabre, ask them :)
<ochosi> good question
<ochosi> knome is right, we should ask them
<bluesabre> knome: asked ochosi since he seems to be in the know :)
<knome> lol
<elfy> bluesabre: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Testing/TeamHardware
<bluesabre> elfy, thanks
<bluesabre> wondering if we can extend that with a few specifics... like monitor count
<elfy> bluesabre: well ... 
<knome> elfy, poked
<elfy> given that it takes a thousand attempts to get a simple one done - if you want something more elaborate - please do your own ;)
<elfy> knome: thanks :)
<elfy> bluesabre: but seriously if you think it's helpful to know - change it :)
<elfy> sometimes I suspect it might be helpful to know it it's laptop or desktop too I guess
<knome> if we add monitor count, is it useful to know i can do two-monitor testing on a non-development version?
<bluesabre> yeah, laptop vs desktop, gfx card
<knome> or maybe we should add one more column
<bluesabre> knome: yes, since we develop the portion of xfce4-settings that handles monitors
<knome> for the "hardware id"
<knome> and separate the vbox list
<ochosi> bluesabre: +1 on monitor/graphics card info
 * bluesabre waits forever for ubuntu wiki to log him in
<knome> elfy, allow me to poke the page in the way i suggested?
<slickymaster> knome, hardware id? you mean something like https://wiki.ubuntu.com/QATeam/Hardware
<knome> slickymaster, no, i mean like
<elfy> knome: yea go ahead
<knome> every member should add one line per a hardware configuration
<knome> bluesabre, no poking now then
<elfy> but for instance I do dailies on VM, milestones on laptop hence only manual partition
<bluesabre> knome: sure, still logging in
<knome> yep
<elfy> but once or twice a cycle I'll do hardware on desktop
<elfy> knome: yea - one line per available hardware config would do - but it's getting people to actually do it :)
<knome> elfy, yeah
<elfy> that's useful info for lots of us I would think
<elfy> I'd like to know I could ask foo to check something on laptop for instance
<bluesabre> cleaned up the dev pad a bit, http://pad.ubuntu.com/xubuntu-v-dev
<elfy> bluesabre: ta
<elfy> so other than staging and shimmer ppa I've got currently anything else I *need* to add here
<ochosi> bluesabre: what do you think about just copying over e.g. git versions from parole that we want testers to check out to the staging ppa from the parole-daily PPA?
<ochosi> and same for themes/icons
<knome> ok, lookie at the wikipage
<knome> elfy, ochosi: you obviously want to change some details...
<bluesabre> elfy: yeah, everything should be in those two
<elfy> :)
<bluesabre> ochosiL that makes sense
<elfy> bluesabre: ok cool
<knome> maybe other/comments could be combined
<ochosi> knome: i think we might need >1 line per tester
<elfy> I guess I should try and use things like parole a bit more during cycle 
<ochosi> i have desktop @work and laptop @home
<knome> ochosi, yes, then you should add one more line
<elfy> ochosi: yea - I'm just going to add one for me
<knome> note the HWID field
<knome> and the note about the HWID field :P
<elfy> or will when ochosi tells me I can access it
<knome> ;)
<knome> ochosi, while you're at it, remove the "other HW information" column
<ochosi> okok
<ochosi> i'm done
<ochosi> mostly
<elfy> done
<elfy> filling that in actually made me realise that I can do 2 monitors for laptop if we need to test something :)
<elfy> caq5C4#
<elfy> sigh
<knome> lol
<knome> elfy, i'd advise you to change your ubuntu one password
<elfy> heh
<knome> ;P
<elfy> I had to do that a while back because of similar elsewhere :D
<knome> yep
<bluesabre> added mine
<bluesabre> thanks guys, this will help track down unfortunate people
<elfy> lol 
<elfy> but you could have made it alpabetical :|
<bluesabre> oh dang it
<elfy> awesome 
<bluesabre> did elsewhere, will do that now
<elfy> so - found a bug in vivid ... 
<bluesabre> or not
<elfy> bluesabre: I'm joking :D
<elfy> everyone else will just tag on the bottom :)
<bluesabre> elfy: I'm not... a bit ocd with alphabetizing
<bluesabre> vivid bug already, nice one
 * elfy waits for bluesabre to finish ... 
 * bluesabre is finished
<elfy> bluesabre: not really - changing machine password - and it's hanging ... 
<ochosi> bluesabre: looks good to me
<ochosi> Lockerkim though?
<bluesabre> cat hopped on keyboard, wasn't sure what she types
<knome> :D
<bluesabre> elfy, users-admin from terminal... wonder if there is any useful output
<elfy> just started it again
<elfy> killed existing - hadn't done anything ran it again and it worked ok
<bluesabre> ochosi: can you add any roadmaps that I am missing at the bottom of the pad?
 * bluesabre needs to create some for catfish, menulibre, mugshot
<ochosi> bluesabre: done
<bluesabre> ochosi: thanks. I'll create and link roadmaps for the other projects, and we can start planning there
<ochosi> cool
<ochosi> sounds good to me
<knosys> hey all
<bluesabre> ochosi: will expand out from here :) http://wiki.smdavis.us/doku.php?id=development
<bluesabre> hey knosys
<knosys> hey :)
<elfy> hi knosys 
<knosys> hey guys, its weird, i can't see translations anymore in launchpad. Why is that?
<elfy> no idea - I've enough problems with English
<knosys> "is not an active member of any Launchpad teams. " That is show on my profile. Does that means that i can't review translations anymore?
<knosys> Oh wait, sorry i was on another different project. I should be looking to "xubuntu documentation"
<knosys> my bad!
<ochosi> bluesabre: cool, good overview there
<elfy> ochosi: one other QA thing while I remember - what more to do with qa incentive and then where we going to store that - testing wiki page ?
<elfy> last probably makes more sense - then it's just a link elsewhere
<knome> elfy, or since it's an end-user facing thing (mostly) it could also go on the website
<elfy> true 
<elfy> probably even better 
<elfy> it'll certainly get noticed more there I should think :)
<knome> yep, especially if we advertise that page set
<bluesabre> knome: your requests are now on the menulibre roadmap :) http://wiki.smdavis.us/doku.php?id=development:menulibre
<elfy> knome: I'll start finishing that off and get it on a draft page at x.org
<knome> great
<bluesabre> lunchtime, bbl
<elfy> ok - so there's a bit at the top of http://pad.ubuntu.com/QAIncentive now destined for x.org 
<knome> destine ha ha
<knome> +d too
<elfy> :)
<knome> hahah
<knome> gnome minesweeper just crashed
<elfy> are the Swedish navy looking for it? 
<knome> who knows
<elfy> bbl
<knome> hf
<brainwash> ochosi: please read http://forum.ubuntuusers.de/topic/allgemeine-frage-zu-bugs-in-14-04-lts/
<brainwash> I will add a reply later if you don't plan to do so :)
<ochosi> brainwash: yeah, feel free to add a reply (as long as it's an explanation and not a rant ;))
<elfy> I see people other than team adding to hardware page - that's more useful 
<elfy> especially akxwi-dave - not sure who he is - but he does a huge amount of testing for us 
<bluesabre> I'm back
<Unit193> Yey!
<bluesabre> :D
<skellat> bluesabre, brainwash: I think I need help understanding what the reporter is trying to say in LP Bug 1385863 as it is not clear at all
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1385863 in xubuntu-meta (Ubuntu) "Constant minimum load of 1.00 after upgrade to 14.10 (Xubuntu)" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1385863
<knome> skellat, he's saying that top says that his computer is on a huge load, but nothing seems to be the culprit
<knome> so it'd be good to know if his system feels like it's under a huge load or not
<knome> if it's not, then it might be either 1) a bug in top or 2) something that's explainable, but isn't imminently clear/logical
 * skellat does not like bug reports with huge copy pasta dumps in the middle of them
<skellat> Alrighty, probing questions left
<skellat> Thank you knome
<knome> me neither, the data dump would be much better in an attachment
<knome> maybe you could edit the description to delete that
<knome> and ask to readd it as an attachment (or simply do that yourself)
<knome> and np
 * bluesabre feels like there should be a xubuntu-u-development, but that draws a lot of parallels with new-features
<ochosi> yeah, i somewhat agree
<ochosi> we could also s/features/development/
<ochosi> after all, we're using features like de
<ochosi> v
<bluesabre> yeah, I think that would be the way to go
<ochosi> maybe for x though, cause i've already sent an email for blueprint approval to u-release ml
<ochosi> i mean i can send another, amending email
<ochosi> but i dunno if it's worth it, just for the title of the blueprint
<bluesabre> either way, will probably flood -features with more than just new-features
<bluesabre> or, can link the pad
<bluesabre> let me know what would be preferred
<bluesabre> or wiki page, etc
<knome> blueprint is a great place
<knome> so much easier to track
<ochosi> bluesabre: yeah, put everything in the blueprint, sucks having to look in >1 place (especially with the wiki etc being so slow)
<knome> and especially since anything else than the blueprints aren't designed to track progress :)
<bluesabre> ochosi, knome: updated xubuntu-default-settings and xubuntu-artwork branches. new vivid branches, set as development target
<bluesabre> knome: can't do the same for xubuntu-docs, but I think you can :)
<knome> right
<knome> i'll consider doing that at some point
<knome> ;)
<bluesabre> what other paperwork/processes do we need to do for vivid that we'll kick ourselves in 5 months for not doing yet? :)
<knome> did you check the processes page?
 * bluesabre should do that
<knome> ^ my new favorite phrase
<elfy> can we all use it? 
<elfy> I assume you mean "bluesabre should do that"
<knome> yes you can
<knome> i meant my previous comment
<knome> did you check the processes page?
<elfy> :)
<knome> /dyctpp
<knome> (not really)
<bluesabre> ok read that
<bluesabre> isn't there something release-specific we need to do for tracking that we did really late in utopic?
<knome> bluesabre, anything that you missed? anything that was missing?
<knome> bluesabre, i don't understand your comment.
<bluesabre> the burndown chart or sth
<elfy> bluesabre: afaik that comes from the blueprints being dealt with by release team
<bluesabre> ah, ok
<elfy> none of our blueprints last cycle were done 
<knome> bluesabre, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Processes#Testing
<knome> oh right.
<knome> yeah, there's no charts for utopic.
<bluesabre> yeah, this thing http://status.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-t/group/topic-t-flavor-xubuntu.html
<knome> yep, wasn't set up
 * elfy keeps thinking he's missed something 
<brainwash> skellat: I like the last comment in bug 1292290
<ubottu> bug 1292290 in xfce4-settings (Ubuntu) "Window manager keybindings don't work after reboot" [Undecided,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1292290
<brainwash> he assigned the bug to himself, but does not know what to do :)
<brainwash> also bug 1270894
<ubottu> bug 1270894 in ristretto (Ubuntu) "Sorting by date or name not working properly in thumbnail bar" [Medium,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1270894
<brainwash> it's assigned to a random guy, but no progress so far
<bluesabre> ochosi, knome: blueprint look good (as demoed on top)? http://pad.ubuntu.com/xubuntu-v-dev
<knome> bluesabre, is the gnome components note misaligned?
<knome> without checking the content too closely, looks good to me
<bluesabre> knome: no
<bluesabre> ;)
<knome> to me, the work items is ultimately the most important bit
<elfy> has anyone seen lderan lately?
<knome> so if you can squeeze out more work items from the whiteboard, even generic ones like "discuss X", or "investigate X", or "do X", those would be a welcome addition
<bluesabre> ok
<knome> they are easy enought to turn into actionabe items later
<knome> and with as much work items laid out as possible, it's easier to grasp what the total work items amount would be at max
<knome> (and the baseline is more useful if we have most work items listed when the baseline is reset
<knome> )
<bluesabre> ok, put the squeeze on, created more items
<bluesabre> going to add these to the blueprint now, I'm pretty happy with what we've come up with
<knome> :)
<bluesabre> blueprint now updated, https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/xubuntu-v-features
<knome> yep
<elfy> mmm - I remember now 
<elfy> milestones - we need to decide before I start scheduling testing if we're going to do as last cycle and ignore alphas
<elfy> ochosi bluesabre Unit193 slickymaster knome skellat jjfrv8 Noskcaj pleia2 ^^
<bluesabre> I'd be interesting in knowing when the things above us (gtk, systemd) will land
<elfy> good point 
<skellat> elfy: It depends upon when systemd lands.  If it is post-alpha, then I'd say just ignore them as what we would be testing would have little relationship to released product.
<elfy> I think I'll just assume that we are - then if we're not we'll have a couple of freeish weeks mid cycle
<skellat> infinity thought mid-cycle
<Noskcaj> bluesabre, gtk will probably be in the next few weeks, we need to finish gi fisrt AFAIK
<Noskcaj> *first
<elfy> skellat: yea - which is mid alpha (ish)
<skellat> Oh, I forgot to ask.  Do we need to think about Mir?  Is mainline going to try to land that in 15.04?
<elfy> other than currently knowing "15.10: Potentially Unity 8 default / Unity 7 as an option"
<elfy> I've not seen much talk of it 
<Noskcaj> upower should be just after gtk is done, bluez5 after that
<bluesabre> Noskcaj: good to know
<bluesabre> thanks :)
<skellat> What other Gnomish bits are planned to be raining down on us?
<Unit193> Likely latest.
<skellat> Do we know what side effects we'll get out of that?
<Noskcaj> skellat, 3.14 didn't bring many big changes with it, just catch-up transions and debian switching gi to multiarch
<Unit193> Sure, maybe not much for Gnome, but Xfce.
<skellat> But in Ubuntu-side archive we're looking at a jump from 3.8 to 3.14 effectively after the late landing for 3.12
<Noskcaj> We're hoping to try for 3.16 if all the transitons are done fairly early
<skellat> GNOME might not have had big changes within its frame of reference but I'm more worried about our frame of reference
<Noskcaj> For us, it's mostly just making sure headerbar stuff is patched
<bluesabre> yeah, xfce works well with headerbars (better than unity actually)
<Unit193> Bleh, headerbars.
 * Unit193 votes to drop any application that adds them. :P
<skellat> And please remember Noskcaj, Debian is hitting their freeze soon at 23:59 UTC on the 5th of November 2014 for Jessie
<Noskcaj> skellat, yep
<Noskcaj> gnome side that actually helps us since debian have sorted all of 3.14 out
<bluesabre> yeah, we're in a good position thanks to the heavy debian work
<Unit193> "Copy shimmer-themes package from daily ppa to xubuntu-staging for milestone testing"  Is that the badly versioned one?
<bluesabre> true...
<bluesabre> "Build git versions for xubuntu-staging for milestone testing" is probably better
<Unit193> bluesabre: Nuke the PPA, re-create it, then change the version format for the daily builds?
 * skellat walks away to go to a 14.04 machine to test a backport so he can file the request bug to go from V -> U and V -> T based on the sync from Sid
<Unit193> bluesabre: Ah, thought lls was going to be added/created in ll source.  There's a WNPP already if you need me to grab the number.
<Unit193> (Also, think policykit stuff would technically be an "upstream" problem, thus not on Xubuntu stuff?  Anywho. :P )
<bluesabre> it is, but since I develop it, meh
<bluesabre> :)
<bluesabre> Unit193: # please
<bluesabre> cavalier seemed opposed to the idea of including lls in ll
<bluesabre> or, do you mean lggs?
<Unit193> debian 745509
<ubottu> Debian bug 745509 in wnpp "RFP: light-locker-settings -- Simple configuration tool for light-locker." [Wishlist,Open] http://bugs.debian.org/745509
<bluesabre> thanks
<elfy> ochosi bluesabre: at some point before I do testing plan can you cast an eye over this - make sure all's what you think we need to test still please :) http://pad.ubuntu.com/vivid-testcases
<bluesabre> currently experimenting with default qt configs
<bluesabre> elfy: groups A-D are tested in that order? A earliest in cycle, D latest?
<elfy> bluesabre: well ... unbeknownst to me - you can't order package testing in any order - so it does it in the order they appear on the tracker admins - hence they all show ashttp://packages.qa.ubuntu.com/qatracker/milestones/316/builds/67147/testcases 
<elfy> however - there is nothing to stop me swapping tests within each suite about as we need
<bluesabre> I mean, as far as the calls to testing, do we request some at a specific time?
<bluesabre> I was thinking we did A early on
<elfy> shouldn't  "change pinkish highlights to turquoiseish ones" be on the artwork blueprint :)
<elfy> bluesabre: well - I can call for things whenever we want them - but experience tells me that people just go from the top of the list :)
<elfy> bluesabre: you tell me what you want tested first and I'll do that :)
<bluesabre> ok, np then.  we usually squeeze in the things we're developing right before FF (because we're awful)
<elfy> lol
<Unit193> Seems everyone likes to do that, or after.
 * ochosi read backlog
<elfy> bluesabre: as I said earlier - we could call for parole to be tested next week - if we need to retest it in March we can call again - that's not a problem
<bluesabre> ok cool
<elfy> I guess the important thing right now is if something obvious is missing from there 
<bluesabre> it looks good to me
<elfy> or needs to move out of the top 2 - as they are optionals currently
<bluesabre> I think it is fine as is
<elfy> cool - that makes it easy then - just remove xchat and we're good to go with those 
<Pwnna> is the thunar bug getting fixed anytime soon?
<Pwnna> thunar default open
<Pwnna> also i'm getting black screen for light locker again. How to debug this?
<Pwnna> fresh install, this time
<elfy> night all - cya when I cya
<ochosi> bluesabre: you're pushing that right into x-d-s, right?
<bluesabre> yeah, the plan is to push it, and anything else we want for our initial vivid release
<bluesabre> it will go into daily, and then let that simmer for a few days before upload to archive
<ochosi> i guess for 14.10 we can't really fix that for existing users anyway...
<ochosi> could try to SRU it, since it's one of the known ones
<bluesabre> yeah, not much that can be done.  Doesn't get copied or read for xdg-xubuntu, skel only applies to new users (I think)
<knome> bluesabre, so, when are you pushing the pink-reverting stuff? :)
<bluesabre> can push that now too, unless we want to cling to the pink for a while 
<knome> nah, for vivid, it should just be gone
<bluesabre> Unit193: poke
<bluesabre> does "bzr-builder format 0.3 deb-version {debupstream}+bzr~{revno}" seem reasonable for ubuntu-native bzr packages?
<bluesabre> in this case, xubuntu-default-settings_15.04.0+bzr~534.dsc
<ochosi> we could also just replace the pink with turquoise straight away
<ochosi> knome: ^
<ochosi> or do you wanna keep it a "suprise"?
<bluesabre> either way, we can't undo gtk3 colors since they are a skel item
<bluesabre> so, pink utopic upgraders keep pink gtk3
<knome> bluesabre, Unit193 talked about some script to revert that if i understood correctly
<knome> ochosi, i would say we should probably just revert to default now
<ochosi> yeah, bringing it back is easy anyway
<knome> yep
<Unit193> bluesabre: Hello.  No tilde, though.  Well, upgraders don't really get it if they don't create a new user, and maintscript to remove the file.
<bluesabre> so, a new user made in 14.10, with /etc/skel/.config/gtk-3.0/gtk-3.0.css copied to their profile, we can remove the file in their profile?
<Unit193> No, but from .skel.
<Unit193> gtk-theme-config, same as always.
<bluesabre> ok
<bluesabre> knome: poke
<Unit193> Yes, yes.  Poke knome!
<Unit193> Pokepokepoke.
<bluesabre> and/or ochosi
<bluesabre> xubuntu-* packages, which series should get daily builds? trusty/utopic/vivid ?
<Unit193> If it's from the vivid repo, it's for vivid?
<skellat> Why would we need to keep re-building utopic?
<knome> what
<bluesabre> for folks testing
<bluesabre> vivid-only in this case?
<bluesabre> yeah, guess that makes sense
<bluesabre> nvm
<bluesabre> Unit193: so, about the maintscripts
<bluesabre> guessing, prerm to remove that file
<Unit193> xubuntu-default-settings.maintscript
<bluesabre> aha
<Unit193> Silly bluesabre.
<bluesabre> thats easy enough then
 * Unit193 hopes he wasn't going to just have a rm -f. :3
#xubuntu-devel 2015-10-19
<Unit193> xfce4-smartbookmark-plugin, xfce4-verve-plugin, and xfce4-whiskermenu-plugin uploaded too.
<bluesabre> we'll probably need to fix this pre-release or with an SRU, https://bugs.launchpad.net/fedora/+source/catfish/+bug/1501565
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1501565 in Catfish "crash in en_US locale for non-sudoer user" [Undecided,New]
<bluesabre> If we can test this easily (create a test user, make sure they are not in sudoers), that'd be cool
<slickymasterWork> bluesabre, checked and confirmed on RC image
<slickymasterWork> do you want to add anything to that report?
<slickymasterWork> + me
<bluesabre> slickymasterWork: just that it also affects ubuntu
<bluesabre> gotta run, bbl
<flocculant> slickymasterWork bluesabre - commented in that report
<flocculant> sent the users and invite to testing :p
<tracker9> flashing green bar to tell you where to type then
<flocculant> installing to ssd is so quick that the enter for the next comment from tracker9 became the restart after install :p
<flocculant> jjfrv8: I tried to make that affect catfish(ubuntu) but it wouldn't find it :(
<slickymasterWork> flocculant, bluesabre, added my to the bug. It's now confirmed
<flocculant> ta
<flocculant> knome: yep - I'll probably just do new ones - easier than fiddling with the old ones
<flocculant> knome: also - if we want to take the contribute/qa page back to something more basic - I've transferred it to wiki and we could have wiki/Xubuntu/Testing/page there 
<flocculant> dkessel: if you get time - can you check the iso you have and that failed install - cheers
<dkessel> flocculant: currently running another installation with the same medium. checked the iso MD5, ran the image selftest...
<dkessel> btw: should there be a battery status icon (from xfpm or something) during the install?
<flocculant> not sure tbh - only thing I have with a battery *needs* to be connected to mains ... 
<flocculant> !team
<ubottu> bluesabre, dkessel, flocculant, jjfrv8, knome, krytarik, lderan, micahg, Noskcaj, ochosi, pleia2, slickymaster, Unit193
<flocculant> can anyone confirm an issue with catfish - unlock database - hangs updating 
<flocculant> didn't ask password either 
<dkessel> flocculant: nope, asks for password
<dkessel> and updates
<dkessel> not a clean install though
<flocculant> ok cool :)
<flocculant> just checked with live too 
<slickymasterWork> give me sec flocculant 
<dkessel> yeah, live works here, too.
<dkessel> mhhh i guess i will close that kernel bug if another install goes through without kernel panic
<flocculant> dkessel: ack - I installed that to hardware a few hours ago - infinity was a tad perturbed I guess 
<slickymasterWork> flocculant: no seeing it either
<slickymasterWork> RC image 
<slickymasterWork> it did ask for the password and finished the database update
<flocculant> k - thanks both :)
<flocculant> obviously broken it here :p
<slickymasterWork> that's because you're the QA lead :P
<flocculant> hah
<flocculant> ochosi: mousepad view - I see where that's set y default settings - but where does the 'colour' for the highlight when you search come from? 
<flocculant> slightly older people might welcome a change - hard to see what you've Ctrl+F'd as it it 
<drc> As one of those...+2 :)
<flocculant> blame bluesabre for "Usability bug reports are fair game" ... ;)
<flocculant> hi drc :)
<drc> Hey flocculant 
<drc> Yeah, He appears to have developed pronounced sado-machocistic tendencies :)
<flocculant> :D
<drc> ochosi: re: mousepad highlight color...just a tad darker, just enough to see it more distinctly.
<dkessel> hah! now after installing, i have that exact same catfish freeze, flocculant
<dkessel> flocculant: if you run "catfish -v" in a terminal, you will likely see an "UnboundLocalError: local variable 'password' referenced before assignment
<dkessel> also, bluesabre ^
<slickymasterWork> let me check that dkessel 
<slickymasterWork> nopes, dkessel 
<slickymasterWork> still working as expected
<drc> Doesn't the user have to be non-sudoer?
<drc> IIRC from the log.
<dkessel> slickymasterWork: well flocculant and me can reproduce it :p i couldn't reproduce it on this old installation here, either, or on the live image. but on the fresh installation, it happened two times now
<flocculant> bluesabre: http://pastebin.com/YLwjtn5D
<flocculant> first run with -v it asked for password and ran, second run without the -v it hangs unlocking
<flocculant> dkessel: well that's odd - with verbose it worked 
<slickymasterWork> drc, that one is bug 1501565
<ubottu> bug 1501565 in catfish (Ubuntu) "crash in en_US locale for non-sudoer user" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1501565
<slickymasterWork> a different
<slickymasterWork> one
<dkessel> i understand that it might be timing related from the log
<dkessel> well, i have DE locale
<dkessel> yeah, but that's a different one
<slickymasterWork> what I find odd is the fact that I'm not getting it
<flocculant> yea
<slickymasterWork> do you want any special info on my box setup, flocculant?
<slickymasterWork> it's a clean RC image though
<flocculant> slickymaster: no - unless we ask 
<slickymaster> oki doke
<flocculant> by we *we* :p
<flocculant> I mean 
<slickymaster> ... mean...
<slickymaster> ?!
<flocculant> by we I mean *we* :p
 * slickymaster is lost re who the hell we might be :P
<flocculant> well we doesn't include me :p
<slickymaster> heh
<flocculant> but bluesabre most likely or someone more codelike in the team 
 * slickymaster is at their service
<flocculant> :)
<Unit193> Ahh, got my coffee.  Nice warm beverage, though does taste a tad off.
<flocculant> try milk instead of youghurt
<Unit193> Nooo, black.
<flocculant> slickymaster: so in a vm installed from RC then updated - catfish crunches, running with -v in a vm - no different at all
<flocculant> so that's odd 
<slickymaster> yeas
<slickymaster> I won't touch the installation I have in case bluesabre will want any info/data out of it
<flocculant> well it fails here too
<flocculant> sigh - this is why I'm right to bring package testing back 
<slickymaster> well dinner time for me
<flocculant> k 
<flocculant> gonna do a clean hardware install 
<Unit193> Open Catfish â Gear Icon â Update index  ?
<flocculant> Unit193: failing for you? 
<Unit193> Works fineâ¢
<flocculant> and all updated 
<Unit193> Well, not technically, didn't run it today yet but yesterday was.
<Unit193> Installed: 1.3.3-0ubuntu1
<Unit193> This is a system upgrade, amd64.
<flocculant> yea - just wonder if this is caused by other recent updates
<Unit193> Oh hah, nevermind.  It is broken, yes.
<flocculant> ok cool
<flocculant> in a manner of speaking 
<Unit193> unit193    2688  0.0  0.1  12464  2684 pts/10   S+   15:29   0:00          |   |   \_ bash /usr/bin/catfish
<Unit193> unit193    2689  0.7  2.7 864992 53148 pts/10   Sl+  15:29   0:02          |   |       \_ python3 /usr/share/catfish/bin/catfish.py
<Unit193> root      2718  0.0  0.1  58796  3636 pts/14   Ss+  15:29   0:00          |   |           \_ /usr/bin/sudo updatedb
<flocculant> Unit193: but running catfish -v works?
<Unit193> Still  UnboundLocalError: local variable 'password' referenced before assignment
<flocculant> aah, now that's failing here
<flocculant> which is now weirder 
<flocculant> how does something that was working 10 minutes ago - not work now
<dkessel> well that's typical for a timing related bug :)
<flocculant> dkessel: awesome timing - waits till Unit193 starts talking and suddenly fails :p
<dkessel> he must be pushing the button right over there
<flocculant> heh
<flocculant> dkessel: did that install work btw?
<knome> flocculant, re: website, i think it's better to have the new stuff there until we have a sensible and sustainable place for the developer documentation...
<knome> flocculant, and now as you have poked docbook a little - let me remind you that one option is to create another set of documentation in docbook for contributors
<flocculant> okey doke - just thought I would mention that
<knome> flocculant, with all kinds of silly pdf output formats
<dkessel> flocculant: oh yeah it did. invalidated that bug. i guess the sd card broke somehow. i can't write anything anymore to it now. so maybe the sd card was the cause
<flocculant> knome: ok - and put it where? 
<flocculant> dkessel: ok - thanks :)
<knome> flocculant, can be on the website, on a subdomain, can be shipped with the system -
<knome> flocculant, no limits there, whatever we feel is the best place for it
<flocculant> knome: so what we've got in docbook? 
<knome> flocculant, our documentation
<knome> flocculant, which you have just recently poked...
<flocculant> sorry - lack of punctuation didn't help then at all :p
<knome> ahah
<flocculant> I meant - what we've got on website - but in docbook :)
<knome> flocculant, well, yes and no - the website should still probably have the very basics
<knome> flocculant, but the docbook stuff could be a full guide to silly things
<flocculant> right 
<knome> flocculant, and one good thing about it would be that we could write an appendix about using bzr and launchpad
<knome> flocculant, and then simply cross-reference to it whenever we need to
<flocculant> ack
<flocculant> happy to start looking at that 
<knome> flocculant, not that we can't do that with the website or wiki, but you know how messy it gets
<flocculant> yea
<knome> flocculant, so - that's just one option - and the argument that "docbook is hard BOOHOO" stays :P
<flocculant> ha ha 
<knome> (it isn't, but it's of course more than editing a wiki)
<flocculant> well 
<flocculant> these things are generally pita to start - person coming along after has it easyish
<knome> we have the process ready in docs
<flocculant> do we? 
<knome> yeah, of course :D
<flocculant> never seen it 
<knome> we *are* exporting to html and pdf from docbook
<knome> i mean the technical process :P
<knome> so there's not too much to do when starting
<knome> except a lot of writing...
<flocculant> oic - thought you meant Processes :D
<knome> nnnoope :D
<knome> should try to be less ambiguous
<flocculant> join the club ... 
<flocculant> well I can start writing the QA stuff for sure
<knome> mh
<flocculant> if doing that makes sense for later - then *shrug* 
<knome> well, good documentation *always* makes sense
<knome> maybe no reason to convert it to docbook markup yet
<flocculant> not quite what I meant :)
<knome> lol
 * knome reads ambiguously too
<flocculant> ha ha 
<flocculant> I'll do this anyway, practice
<knome> yep, i won't mind
<Unit193> flocculant: Yeah this doesn't make sense at all.
<flocculant> well I stand no chance at all if you say that :p
<Unit193> passwordless_sudo is returning 1, which in theory should make it try to attempt a password dialog box, but alas it doesn't.
<Unit193> Logic here doesn't seem to be quite right...
<Unit193> Anywho, not my problem, right? :D
<knome> totally your problem
<knome> at least you seem to be bothered by it much more than i am...
<knome> :P
<flocculant> :d
<flocculant> I'll report this now that it's confirmed
<flocculant> just to make bluesabre's evening 
<Unit193> knome: I was surprised to see catfish even installed. :P
<Unit193> apport (2.19.1-0ubuntu3) wily; urgency=medium
<Unit193> * Disable Launchpad crash upload for final Ubuntu 15.10.
<Unit193> Hmm.
<Unit193> flocculant: But, did you run  catfish -v  soon after using `sudo`?
<flocculant> Unit193: mmm
<Unit193> The exit status of `sudo -n true` is always returning 1, but return p.exitstatus == 1 isn't right. :D
<flocculant> possible
<flocculant> given where we are - wonder if we'll get this in
<flocculant> there is at least a workround - either use sudo somewhere or sudo updatedb 
<flocculant> oh - perhaps as drc said this is the same bug 
<knome> flocculant, this time is totally designed for getting bug fixes like this in :)
<flocculant> Unit193: are you saying it crashes if sudo used recently or it works if sudo used recently? 
<flocculant> knome: if it gets fixed in the next day
<flocculant> I'd rather release with it than spend hours smoketesting isos on my own on Thursday again 
<flocculant> currently both catfish and -v are wanting password
<flocculant> Unit193: nvm - answered myself :)
<flocculant> brb
<flocculant> back
<knome> yyep
<flocculant> confusing myself now 
<knome> :D
<flocculant> so it seems that if catfish is the first thing to want sudo it works
<flocculant> but if you've used it prior to catfish it fails
<flocculant> Unit193: does that sum up what you've seen? 
<flocculant> bug 1507765
<ubottu> bug 1507765 in catfish (Ubuntu) "Catfish fails to update database" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1507765
<flocculant> Unit193: if you've data to add to the bug description from what you found above - that'd be good :)
<Unit193> "Exit status of 'true' was '1'"  do you see a problem here? :P
<flocculant> nope
<Unit193> 'true' returning '1', means the program that always exits without any errors exited "with an error"
<flocculant> so add it to the bug then 
<flocculant> night all 
<Unit193> Anywho, yeah I'm done playing around in the souce there.
<knome> souce? sauce?
<Unit193> knome: Why aren't you off pinging the right people already!? :P
<bluesabre> hey all
<knome> hey sean
 * bluesabre needs to check the sudo/true/catfish output again it seems
<Unit193> Very.
#xubuntu-devel 2015-10-20
<bluesabre> I think the result = 1 is for when sudo returns an error state, as opposed to true returning an error state
<bluesabre> if I remember my own code correctly
<knome> ehh :)
<bluesabre> hm
<bluesabre> ah... the logic does look flipped there...
<bluesabre> which is weird
<bluesabre> I tested it a bunch
<bluesabre> VMs, multiple locales
<bluesabre> >.<
<bluesabre> dinner time, bbabl
<knome> bon appetit
<bluesabre> well, it does update in the live session it seems
<bluesabre> and dies installed
<bluesabre> very nice
<bluesabre> pretty sure I see that first fix
<jjfrv8> flocculant, I had problems with the 32-bit image tonight - first, getting it to even burn a thumb drive; then when I did get a bootable stick, it would hang at the Xubuntu splash screen.
<jjfrv8> the iso did seem to load okay in vbox.
<bluesabre> so, relevant to catfish: http://www.heikkitoivonen.net/blog/2009/01/28/pexpect-and-inconsistent-exit-status/
<Unit193> http://lists.alioth.debian.org/pipermail/pkg-xfce-devel/2015-October/021068.html fun.
<bluesabre> oh wow
<bluesabre> and
<bluesabre> thats an old thunar
<bluesabre> he should upgrade to get more crashes
<bluesabre> :)
<Unit193> I'd presume you already saw the l-g-g one, so didn't bother linking.
<bluesabre> flocculant, Unit193: updated catfish in -staging.  Will upload tomorrow after more than just myself confirm that it works
<bluesabre> I'll need to look into that :)
<Unit193> bluesabre: ACK.
<bluesabre> Unit193: thanks
<bluesabre> bed time, bbl
<flocculant> bluesabre: that appears to work here - ty
<bluesabre> flocculant: uploaded, we'll see if it makes its way through the queue
<bluesabre> Notice(queuebot) -> #ubuntu-release: Unapproved: accepted catfish [source] (wily-proposed) [1.3.3-0ubuntu2]
<flocculant> yep
<flocculant> if it does we could rebuild 
<flocculant> knome: ty for forwarding 
<flocculant> bluesabre: there's going to be at least 1 more rebuild from what I can tell - to remove wubi finally
<bluesabre> flocculant: good good, should make its way in today
<bluesabre> gotta run, bbl
<bluesabre> thanks for the nice set of tests yesterday :)
<knome> flocculant, np again :)
<flocculant> bluesabre: ack - first one to see it land - trigger a rebuild :D 
<flocculant> actually appears to have landed ... 
<flocculant> if someone can doublecheck that - would be wonderful :)
<flocculant> bluesabre: if nothing else - thunar and catfish have proved package testing for xx ;)
<flocculant> https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/Xubuntu-bugs didn't do much then
<jjfrv8> flocculant, I did get the patched catfish and it does appear to have fixed the non-sudoer problem.
<ochosi> evening all
<flocculant> hi ochosi :)
<knome> hey ochosi 
<ochosi> how're things and what's up?
<ochosi> had a few busy days at work so couldn't really follow well
<flocculant> things are pretty much tickety boo 
<flocculant> we found a bug - bluesabre fixed it - should be there for the upcoming rebuild afaik 
<ochosi> i saw the catfish bugs
<ochosi> if you're referring to those
<flocculant> yup
<ochosi> ok cool
<flocculant> not sure what to report the mousepad search highlight usability bug against - mousepad or some setting of ours
<ochosi> what was the problem there?
<flocculant> well - I find it extremely hard to find the highlight 
<flocculant> when lots of text 
<ochosi> ok, lemme quickly test
<ochosi> oh right, i see it
<flocculant> that's because you've got younger eyes :D
<flocculant> ochosi: so just need to know what to report that against so it's remembered post wily 
<ochosi> lemme take a quick peek...
<flocculant> thanks :)
<ochosi> seems to be theme independent, for one
<ochosi> so i guess it's either in mousepad itself or in gtksourceview, which is the widget it's using
<flocculant> ewww 
<knome> i have another bug about it
<flocculant> this looks rather wrong 
<knome> sometimes when playing with comments, gtksourceview fails
<knome> and visually indicates that a lot more would be comment than really is
<knome> fixes when clicking on that spot
<ochosi> yeah
<knome> but some redraw issues
<flocculant> http://i.imgur.com/WEvACuo.png
<ochosi> that got worse in gtk3
<flocculant> mousepad in numix 
<knome> lol
<knome> ochosi, yep
<flocculant> ochosi: so I'll just report to mousepad for the moment then - we can sort the where out post-wily? 
<ochosi> flocculant: well you can, but i'll do some more digging now
 * ochosi clones mousepad
<flocculant> oh ok - I'll wait then :)
<ochosi> knome: if you can reproduce that issue of yours with gedit, report it upstream. otherwise report it against mousepad
<knome> ochosi, i should do that when i have time
<flocculant> perhaps this is a simplistic view - but wouldn't the shade of highlight be in the view scheme - default being xubuntu light 
<flocculant> but I try to be a simpleton when I can :)
<ochosi> flocculant: feel free to play around with it
<flocculant> well I would but don't even know where the code is for that :D
<ochosi> right, i guess that might've been be a good guess
<flocculant> :p
<ochosi> so yeah, i'd say it's related to xubuntu light
<ochosi> knome: your bug!!
<ochosi> D
<ochosi> :D
<flocculant> ha ha 
<flocculant> so - does this point more at reporting against mousepad ... 
<knome> WUT?
<ochosi> flocculant: this is the droid you're looking for: http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~xubuntu-art/xubuntu-artwork/wily/files/head:/usr/share/gtksourceview-3.0/styles/
<ochosi> oh wait, whoops
<ochosi> http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~xubuntu-art/xubuntu-artwork/wily/files/head:/usr/share/gtksourceview-2.0/styles/
<ochosi> obviously this doesnt do what it's expected to: http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~xubuntu-art/xubuntu-artwork/wily/view/head:/usr/share/gtksourceview-2.0/styles/xubuntu-light.xml#L45
<flocculant> \o/
<flocculant> I saw that before you posted :D
<ochosi> we could also report a bug against mousepad though for not using the correct tag
<ochosi> it currently uses "selection" (or at least seems to) instead of using "search-match"
<flocculant> so if it used 'search-match' it would foreground="white" background="green" ?
<ochosi> yeah
<ochosi> lemme see whether i can quickly patch that
<ochosi> holy crap, so many build warnings...
<knome> ok, i now have the totals per day
<flocculant> nice 
<flocculant> was it worth the effort 
<knome> i don't know yet
<ochosi> what totals per day?
<knome> total of xubuntu* users on #xubuntu
<ochosi> ah, interesting
<ochosi> flocculant: so yeah, we can report it as a bug against mousepad
<ochosi> gedit uses the tags correctly and shows the highlight in the disturbing green that knome defined
<knome> :D
<flocculant> ochosi: ok - I'll do that and try and make sense of ^^ in it :p
<knome> for 2015, per month our min is 156, max 228
<knome> (not including october)
<flocculant> and for the different types ? I assume majority are w 
<knome> actually, nope, that's plain joins, not different users
<knome> flocculant, wait :P
<knome> haven't got into that yet
<flocculant> ok :)
<drc> For the whole year?  I'd doubt it...I'd say V, seeing as how April was close to the middle of the time frame.
<knome> w == web, not wily in this context
<drc> ah...sorry.
<flocculant> ochosi: ok reported that and added to the xx bug list bp too 
<flocculant> bug 1508192
<ubottu> bug 1508192 in mousepad (Ubuntu) "Mousepad search highlights hard to see" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1508192
<drc> too much "w" lately :)
<flocculant> drc: ^^ the old men can't see bug :D
<flocculant> ochosi: thanks :) 
<drc> What bug? Lemme get my specs.
<flocculant> heh
<flocculant> knome: will you be about Thursday to do the website release page? 
<flocculant> or someone else 
<flocculant> ochosi: and I assume you've no problem with us releasing if you're not about 
<knome> hmm
<knome> depends...
<knome> i'll be likely off for the daytime, and we have friends coming over at 16UTC
<flocculant> mmk
<knome> but i'm free after that, maybe at 19UTC or so
<flocculant> ok - I guess as long as -release has the wiki page that's good
<knome> flocculant, you have the publish rights
<knome> so we can make sure the website article is good to go in formatting, then you can simply push publish
<flocculant> yea I know - but didn't want to be writing that on Thursday as well 
<knome> of course - let's do that before
<flocculant> oh right - yep that'd fine then :)
<ochosi> jesus... the way gedit does this is really really complicated, i wonder whether all those roundtrips are needed...
<flocculant> knome: the wiki one is unlikely to change much now fyi
<knome> ok
<ochosi> flocculant: yeah, i'm ok with you releasing even if i'm not about
<flocculant> ochosi: I guess - they only make things look un-complicated to the end user then :p
<flocculant> k 
<knome> http://temp.knome.fi/temp/xubuntu/.loganalysis/
<knome> there we go
<knome> unknown basically means xubuntu123 or similar
<flocculant> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/WilyWerewolf/FinalRelease/Xubuntu?action=info
<knome> or some other nick that starts with "xubuntu" that we can't parse
<flocculant> knome: check the editor ... 
<ochosi> flocculant: well let's put it this way, i would've expected gtksourceview to handle this for me
<knome> omg...
<ochosi> i guess as a workaround we could increase the contrast of the selection style
<flocculant> back where it was now 
<ochosi> humm humm, so from what i read the "search-match" style is not a default style, which is why it has to be applied to the sourceview manually
<ochosi> meaning adding quite a bit of code in order for mousepad to respect that
<ochosi> i guess matthew just decided to use the selection style for both, because usually you only have a selection or search highlights
<ochosi> simply to keep the code lean (is my wild guess)
<flocculant> can't believe I still have the tab with that code in it open still 
<flocculant> ochosi: I've not reported this upstream, do I need to if the issue is 'us' 
<ochosi> well it's not really us, strictly speaking, it just seems like it would be a feature request for mousepad. that is: if you want to distinguish selection and search highlight styles
<ochosi> are you ok with the selection highlight right now?
<flocculant> as it stands in default? 
<ochosi> yeah
<ochosi> with xubuntu-light
<flocculant> if so - no - I have to set the view to kobalt or something 
<ochosi> then i guess this is a more general issue related to our colorscheme that should be tackled (or responded to as wontfix, but that's up to knome)
<flocculant> http://i.imgur.com/fpBVYaz.png
<flocculant> something is highlighted there
<flocculant> ochosi: so for the moment I'll just leave it as an LP bug then I guess
<knome> bug # ?
<flocculant> bug 1508192
<ubottu> bug 1508192 in mousepad (Ubuntu) "Mousepad search highlights hard to see" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1508192
<flocculant> right - well I'm off now - night all 
<flocculant> there'll be some rebuild by the morning - I'll ping the list with that 
<flocculant> unless knome beats me to it ... 
<knome> ;)
<Unit193> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel-announce/2015-October/001156.html
<ochosi> night everyone
<knome> nighty ochosi 
<Unit193> :---D
<knome> D---:
<bluesabre> :---:
<knome> woot
<knome> "i have no mouth and i must scream"
<bluesabre> :D
#xubuntu-devel 2015-10-21
<flocculant> knome: could you tweet RC please, forgot all about social media 
<dkessel> morning. did anyone ping me? i think i saw a ping earlier, but now i can't find it
<flocculant> dkessel: nothing that I can see since the catfish one 
<Unit193> Want a free one?
<dkessel> oh yes please
<Unit193> dkessel: Ping!
<dkessel> thanks, much better Unit193
<Unit193> Glad to be of service.
<Unit193> !info acheck
<ubottu> acheck (source: acheck): Check common localisation mistakes. In component universe, is optional. Version 0.5.1+nmu1 (wily), package size 33 kB, installed size 163 kB
<knome> flocculant, anything specific you want linked to?
<knome> *want to be
<knome> flocculant, tweeted https://twitter.com/Xubuntu/status/656769721128394752
<knome> ok, bbl
<flocculant> knome: ty - once again :p
<flocculant> yet another rebuild to come it seems 
<flocculant> it seems about now in fact
<flocculant> this should be the last build - and all we really need to do is make sure they don't explode everywhere
<flocculant> all in all I think we're in a pretty good position 
<flocculant> knome: had itchy trigger finger ... draft 15.10 done based on 15.04 
<Ivanich_> hi there
<flocculant> hello 
<Ivanich_> Where i can find bugzilla of xubuntu?
<flocculant> https://bugzilla.xfce.org/ 
<flocculant> is where we report to xfce
<flocculant> but generally - report to that and LP and then link bugzilla to the LP report
<Ivanich_> Well
<Ivanich_> idk where should i actually write about this
<flocculant> Ivanich_: how about you say what's up and I'll try and help you decide :)
<Ivanich_> I used xubuntu 15.04 x86 before this day
<Ivanich_> but tomorrow is the release day of 15.10 and i decided to install 15.10 amd64 beta
<Ivanich_> but my modem is cannot identify himself.
<Ivanich_> Huawei E3372 in Hilink mode
<flocculant> Ivanich_: right - well the beta is old - there have been a bunch of updates since then
<flocculant> but that as a bug wouldn't be xfce one - that would be an ubuntu LP one
<Ivanich_> What if i downgrade back to 15.04. Will my modem work tomorrow when 15.10 is released?
<flocculant> well you can;t downgrade you would need to reinstall 
<Ivanich_> That's the idea
<flocculant> Ivanich_: best thing you can do is grab the current image and see if it works - http://iso.qa.ubuntu.com/qatracker/milestones/347/builds
<flocculant> go to the bottom - find Xubuntu, choose arch and then grab that 
<Ivanich_> I try to update usb_modeswitch and check
<Ivanich_> if it won't make an effect will try daily build
<Ivanich_> ty
<flocculant> ochosi: do we expect apps with csd to lose rounded corners when compositor is off? 
<flocculant> knome: got an updated for wily getxubuntu locally too - assuming mirrors stay the same
<ochosi> flocculant: yeah, pretty much
<ochosi> rounded corners aren't possible without a compositor or using the X shape extension
<ochosi> (xfwm4 uses the latter so it always works, gtk does not)
<ochosi> (CSD == gtk)
<knome> flocculant, nice
<bluesabre> flocculant, yes, in fact that is xfwm nicely handling those apps without a compositor
<bluesabre> previously we saw large black boxes or duplicated window manager decorations
<flexiondotorg> bluesabre, Yo
<bluesabre> flexiondotorg: what's up?
<flexiondotorg> Oh y'know. Sleep deprivation ;-)
<flexiondotorg> bluesabre, Quick thing.
<flexiondotorg> Did you know I made Ubuntu MATE 15.04 for the Raspberry Pi 2?
<bluesabre> Sleep deprived is just normal
<bluesabre> I did not
<flexiondotorg> So, I did.
<flexiondotorg> I'm releasing Ubuntu MATE 15.10 for the Pi 2 tomorrow along side the other versions.
<flexiondotorg> The build system is a bit brittle right now.
<bluesabre> Pretty cool
<flexiondotorg> But I've agreed with the Lubuntu team to build images for Lubuntu 15.10, probably next week.
<flexiondotorg> You interested in me making Xubuntu images?
<flexiondotorg> Initially so you and your team can test.
<flexiondotorg> Then potentially to release?
<bluesabre> flexiondotorg: We'd have to check with the rest of the team.  I lack the relevant hardware and I think several of the others do as well.  We'd probably like to avoid putting our name on something we can't properly test at this time.
<flexiondotorg> Quite.
<flexiondotorg> Which is why I'm asking.
<flexiondotorg> wxl, the Lubuntu lead, is a Pi fan and has a Pi2. So he will do the acceptance testing.
<flexiondotorg> But I can make an image to share with you privately that you can ask your team to test.
<flexiondotorg> I think our three flavours are best suited for the Pi 2.
<flexiondotorg> And Ubuntu MATE is the heaviest of them all, so Lubuntu and Xubuntu will be fine.
<bluesabre> flexiondotorg: yes, I'd agree with that.  Let's confirm with the others in advance so we don't have to waste your efforts :)
<bluesabre> !team | see above re: raspberry pi and pi 2 images
<ubottu> see above re: raspberry pi and pi 2 images: bluesabre, dkessel, flocculant, jjfrv8, knome, krytarik, lderan, micahg, Noskcaj, ochosi, pleia2, slickymaster, Unit193
<flexiondotorg> OK, well I won't have time for this until next week.
<flexiondotorg> Just Raspberry Pi 2.
<bluesabre> cool, that will give us time to communicate about it
<bluesabre> ah
<flexiondotorg> No ARMv6 in Ubuntu ports.
<bluesabre> !team | sorry about first ping, only pi 2 images
<ubottu> sorry about first ping, only pi 2 images: bluesabre, dkessel, flocculant, jjfrv8, knome, krytarik, lderan, micahg, Noskcaj, ochosi, pleia2, slickymaster, Unit193
<bluesabre> flexiondotorg: but yeah, we'll discuss this and let you know :)
<flexiondotorg> OK, cool.
<flexiondotorg> I assume the xubuntu-desktop meta package will grab everything I need?
<bluesabre> flexiondotorg: yes
<flexiondotorg> What about xubuntu-core?
<flexiondotorg> Is that a dep of -desktop?
<bluesabre> xubuntu-desktop pulls xubuntu-core
<flexiondotorg> Great.
<bluesabre> xubuntu-core is our minimal, so you might have good luck with that
<bluesabre> dinner time, bbabl
<flexiondotorg> xubuntu, lubuntu and ubuntu-mate all work the same way in that regard.
#xubuntu-devel 2015-10-22
<Unit193> flexiondotorg: ..Are you pulling in metas or tasks?
<flexiondotorg> Unit193, Well, meta via apt-get install ubuntu-mate-desktop^
<Unit193> Ah, so tasks.  Ok.
<Unit193> Great.
<flexiondotorg> Because tasksel has proven to be very unreliable.
<Unit193> Yeah we recommend ^ for -core installs.
<flexiondotorg> Unit193, What about -desktop?
<Unit193> flexiondotorg: We recommend people grab the ISO, but yeah would be fine there too.
<flexiondotorg> Thanks.
<flexiondotorg> I'm actually just making the task install function generic.
<flocculant> bluesabre: re Raspberry - given that we have to fight tooth and nail to get what we really need tested - not interested in adding to that pile, secondly - if team decided to flail about with something new I really think the time will be post LTS not leading up to it
<flocculant> bluesabre ochosi - marked ready 
<flocculant> ochosi bluesabre - thanks for comments re CSD - I thought that was the case, just needed confirmation :)
<flocculant> also proving that sometimes I am listening ... 
<Unit193> \o/
<flocculant> knome: on the getxubuntu page do we want to change 15.04 to read "The 15.04 release, codenamed Vivid Vervet, is a regular release and has support until January 2016." Now that we're adding 15.10 to that list? 
<flocculant> or remove 15.04
<flocculant> I have moved 15.10 above 15.04 currently
<flocculant> locally I hasten to add :p
<flocculant> not being sure if I can change pages at x.org and then not update it till later so haven't 
<ochosi> flocculant: re: pi2, yeah, i tend to agree. at least if those were "official" builds that we would - again - get support requests for
<flocculant> yup
<bluesabre> ochosi, flocculant: thanks, that's also my standing
<flocculant> that's lucky then :p
<bluesabre> flexiondotorg: so, that's all three xubuntu-release folks... I'd suggest holding off on those pi2 builds for xubuntu
<flocculant> and good morning bluesabre :)
<bluesabre> good morning flocculant 
<bluesabre> thanks for marking the release ready
<bluesabre> less to do this morning
<flocculant> welcome 
<flocculant> yep - release notes done, website drafter - just needs some image thingy, getxubuntu page ready here 
<flocculant> all in all it's been quite relaxed end of cycle - at least for me :p
<bluesabre> flexiondotorg: but thanks for the offer, we may choose to revisit that in the future
<bluesabre> :)
<flexiondotorg> bluesabre, OK, no problem :-)
<flocculant> bluesabre: making a proper start today on updating our testcases - will get the tracker ready too
<flocculant> so assuming they get xenial up pretty quick we'll be in a position to really push packages asap 
<bluesabre> flocculant: great!
<flocculant> hi axwki_dave - thanks for testing for us :)
<axwki_dave> Morning mate.. no probs.. I enjoy doing it.. gotta give something back to the community :-)
<flocculant> :)
<flocculant> there will be loads of opportunity to do that post-today :D
<flocculant> we'll be really pushing people to test apps next cycle
<axwki_dave> I Also try to get the testing word passed about using my twitter and G+ account
<flocculant> that's awesome :)
<axwki_dave> Thats good. Just permanatly set up a full test rig for that..  :-)
<flocculant> excellent 
<flocculant> you know about the ppa's we use constantly? 
<flocculant> most of what we'll be pushing for XX is at http://xubuntu.org/contribute/qa/ under Exploratory Testing
<flocculant> axwki_dave should hang about on irc more and get more involved in the behind the curtain stuff :p
<axwki_dave> I do try to login while at work, got a vm with the latest release..  I'll take a look at the link cheers
<axwki_dave> ooh.. I know what I'll be doing when I get home tonight...:-)
<axwki_dave> so the ppas, I'll assume these will need to be installed on the latest release, rather than the latest test image?
<flocculant> currently they work with all supported plus dev 
<flocculant> I don't think that will change 
<flocculant> obviously not going to work for xx just yet
<flocculant> I guess I don't notice you if you're online but not actually talking :p
<flocculant> only know you're here because I'd turned off hide joins/parts in here :)
<axwki_dave> lol.. 
<flocculant> bluesabre: you about still? 
<axwki_dave> be back in a bit off for lunch..
<flocculant> sounds like a good plan - thanks :)
<bluesabre> flocculant: hey
<flocculant> bluesabre: quick question - one of those, never really used it so didn't miss it leaving
<flocculant> no thumbnail support in catfish now ?
<bluesabre> flocculant: click the cog to switch views
<flocculant> \o/ 
<flocculant> didn't see it hiding there - thanks :D
<bluesabre> np
<bluesabre> :D
<flocculant> back to editing
<bluesabre> http://i.imgur.com/lOHGJaH.png
<bluesabre> fwiw
<flocculant> :)
<axwki_dave> too much food, just need to sleep now..
 * flocculant is reading testcases and changing them to suit at least wily - feeling the same :p
<axwki_dave> :-)
<axwki_dave> well thats the ppa's (on this vm)and a trello account set up, will get the pp'a setup on my test drive for my laptop and the new dedicated test rig tonight.
<axwki_dave> I'll be able to start doing the package testing on both 32 and 64 versions then
<flocculant> great :)
<axwki_dave> brb need to restart
<flocculant> knome: so worked out from front page that we only have 1 regular at getxubuntu ... 
<flocculant> afternoon GridCube 
<GridCube> :) hello flocculant 
<akxwi_dave> howdo Grid.
<flocculant> pleia2 knome - all the social stuff and the rest of the website needs to be done
<flocculant> I did getxubuntu and published the release note
<pleia2> others have access to social media, I'm not available for a couple weeks
<flocculant> that's fine - I've no idea who so couldn't ping them
<pleia2> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Contact/WebAdmins
<pleia2> holstein has access to facebook, ochosi to g+ and knome on twitter
<flocculant> yea - know knome and twitter
<flocculant> ochosi: can you g+ release please
<akxwi_dave> If you ever need anyone extra to help out on the Social/Web side, I'm an IT Manager and part time webadmin in a Law firm and can help
<flocculant> then I suspect people would like the idea
<flocculant> and hi slickymasterWork :)
<slickymasterWork> :) hi
<akxwi_dave> time for home.. have a good one
<flocculant> bluesabre ochosi http://packages.qa.ubuntu.com/qatracker/milestones/350/builds/105268/testcases
<flocculant> and anyone else half interested :)
<dkessel> regarding the raspberry pi2: flexiondotorg, i would enjoy testing an xubuntu image :) but please don't spend much time on it just for me, as it looks as if the rest of the team is not too interested
<dkessel> flocculant: good to see package testing set up for xenial :)
<dkessel> also - we're the first to have it set up on the tracker :D
<knome> huh, i'm back
<knome> congrats everybody for the release
<knome> http://tracker.xubuntu.org/
<flocculant> knome: hi there - just passing through - didn't do any of the docs stuff on the processes obviously 
<knome> i'll look at them next
<knome> ok - so
<knome> the tracker is now tracking X
<knome> the burndown should get its first line tomorrow, since that's the official starting day
<knome> if you for some reason want to see wily stuff, go to http://tracker.xubuntu.org/?s=wily
<knome> that data will keep on updating for some more time (at least today UTC), so people have time to mark items postponed or done or whatever
<knome> other than that, carry on as usual
<flocculant> got to like green already :p
<knome> ahah
<flocculant> package tracker is done - image appears to be waiting for images I suppose :p
<flocculant> knome: you might notice I added widgets to the website processes - took me ages to remember what they were :D
<knome> :D
<flocculant> 16.04 XX  why XX and not xenial xerus :p
<knome> you mean the toolbox menu
<knome> i didn't know the name was announced
<knome> usually it takes awfully lon
<knome> g
 * knome hides
<flocculant> no - appearance - widgets 
<flocculant> oh yea name was up well early this cycle :p
<knome> and updated
<knome> flocculant, oh yeah, i did get the mail
<flocculant> thought so 
<knome> sorry for being a bit unfocused, i have a headache
<knome> >__<
 * flocculant too 
<knome> and i didn't even fuss around with the release...
* Unit193 changed the topic of #xubuntu-devel to: Xubuntu Development | Support at #xubuntu | http://ubottu.com/y/xx | Wiki: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu | Daily testing with results: http://iso.qa.ubuntu.com/
<flocculant> knome: well tbh I'd marked pretty early today so had most of the day to sort bits
<knome> :)
<flocculant> Unit193: can you add package tracker too ;)
<knome> Unit193, and work item tracker
<flocculant> any need for ubottu in there? 
<knome> well it's the release schedule
<knome> now that it's kind of in the tracker...
<knome> don't know
<knome> should update the blueprint with the dates so the burndown would pick them up
<flocculant> oh right 
<flocculant> mmm 
<flocculant> is the schedule any use - wouldn't people involved know anyway 
<flocculant> anyway - I'm off now 
<flocculant> bluesabre: could we haz xenial ppa's :D
<flocculant> now I'm really off - night all :)
<knome> nighty flocculant! and thanks and congrats!
<Unit193> knome: You going to poke people again?
<knome> about...?
<Unit193> Core MPs.
<knome> when i don't have a headache and have time
<knome> atm, looks like it's monday or later
<Unit193> Trying to get it in before someone has to deal with rebasing.
<knome> when would that seemingly happen?
<Unit193> Very quickly, considering it has to happen before ISOs start cranking out.
<knome> ok, i'll see if the headache goes away
<Unit193> Sure.
<Unit193> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel/2015-October/038937.html
<knome> noticed
<Unit193> knome: Wow, thanks.  Wasn't expecting it to be soon.
 * knome shrugs
<knome> seemingly the painkillers start to have some impact
<ochosi> hey everyone! congrats on the release (and thanks for taking care of the formalities)
<knome> hello ochosi and congrats that way too!
<knome> another release within months!
 * knome hides
<ochosi> ;)
<Unit193> Is there an informal page with things to update?
<ochosi> flocculant: i'm taking a loko at the g+ page now
<knome> loco at the g+ page
<knome> Unit193, yeah.
<knome> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Processes/Website
<knome> but that page is obsolete partly, going editing
<Unit193> And website team.
<ochosi> flocculant: g-plused the release
<Unit193> bluesabre: See sorinello's comment in #x, I think this is expected, but may be relavent.
<Unit193> relevant*
#xubuntu-devel 2015-10-23
<bluesabre> Unit193: I think the automatic notifications wait a few days
<bluesabre> I tried to upgrade my computer at the office today
<bluesabre> went from 14.04 to 15.04
<bluesabre> (via the automatic update)
<bluesabre> or rather, started to
<bluesabre> upgrades to fo-evah
<Unit193> "as a side note, xubuntu core doesn't seem to come with update-manager by default, so it must be installed if you want to upgrade to a newer version" || "IIRC, they expect if you're using -core, you'll know how to use the CLI :)"
<flocculant> I would expect someone using our core as it currently is to be able to fix things]
<flocculant> hence *my* wanting us to be giving a 'core' iso
<flocculant> should just work then afaik
<flocculant> Unit193: that said I'm cool with us adding a "you can do minimal and tasksel, so should be able to fix this currently" note
<bluesabre> flocculant: trying to update the PPAs, but build recipes are still creating 15.10 for xenial... so we might have to wait a bit
<flocculant> not sure what bluesabre and ochosi think on that for the last 'cycle(s)' 
<flocculant> bluesabre: ack - I can accept asap as when it works :D 
<flocculant> I just really want to bolt out as soon as we can for packages
<bluesabre> sure thing
<bluesabre> I've enabled daily builds for all of our daily build ppas
<bluesabre> so, the first part is done at least
<flocculant> bluesabre: I assume you saw my last 'usability' bug 
<bluesabre> flocculant: which one?
<flocculant> nothing to stop us asking people to add that as a tag btw
<flocculant> bluesabre: catfish only lets me delete files one by one ... bug 1508918
<ubottu> bug 1508918 in catfish (Ubuntu) "Deleting from search results" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1508918
<flocculant> might be design - then wishlist I guess
<flocculant> the thing is imho that we report = and someone makes a decision that is seen 
<bluesabre> yup
<bluesabre> any bug reports, and I'll have to comment on them eventually :D
<flocculant> bluesabre: quiet frankly I will report that blue should be white as a bug as long as someone 'official' responds with a proper response
<bluesabre> :D
<flocculant> if *we* can do that then we are +1 on Ubuntu 
<flocculant> on *our* bugs
<bluesabre> yup, I'll have a better focus on responding to bugs this cycle
<flocculant> bluesabre: I am trying to watch and put things on the bug bp 
<flocculant> some I can mark, but they are always in mind and on the tracker
<bluesabre> yeah, if they are on the tracker I will certainly see them
<flocculant> bluesabre: we can ask people to report things - but we need to at least respond somehow
<flocculant> even if asking a ? and marking incomplete
<Unit193> Hi.
<flocculant> gives people hope 
<flocculant> Unit193: hey
<bluesabre> hey Unit193 
<flocculant> bluesabre: I don't care if bugs b/p is a year long as long as none are New :D
<bluesabre> Unit193: I do use this as well, want to add xenial to it? https://sigma.unit193.net/~unit193/xfce412.html
<bluesabre> flocculant: reasonable to me
<flocculant> :)
<flocculant> bluesabre: see -ooftopic
<flocculant> or -offtopic 
<drc> Quick question:  Was looking at the qa page, ppa's...do the staging and daily build ppa's overlap?  Any problem running both?
<Unit193> bluesabre: Of course, just hadn't yet.
<Unit193> Next update will do it.
<Unit193> bluesabre: And, glad to know it is useful to someone other than me!  Updated xfce-4.12 to track trusty and wily, staging now tracks xenial.
<flocculant> Unit193: I look at that too - detail is lost on me ofc, so I just rely on colours
<Unit193> Hah. :D
<Unit193> Not sure if I'm supposed to say that I updated https://unit193.net/xubuntu/core/ too.
<flocculant> so make red green and I will be //o\ cos green would be red :p
<Unit193> "Archive: closed, britney block in place"  dangit, George.
<flocculant> bluesabre: luckily it appears that we're both singing from the same song sheet here :)
<flocculant> ali1234: could you do *us* a small favour please? Make the apport.conf types make basic sense so I can pass that on to testers
<flocculant> eg report goes to errors and we do't necessarily see them, but we see things reported via ubuntu-bug
<slickymasterWork> flocculant, in 7 days my from now, my membership in QA is due to expire
<slickymasterWork> if you think I'm worth it, can you please renew it?
<Unit193> Hah.
<flocculant> :)
<Unit193> Mine expires too.
<Unit193> (However, I know I don't do much QA...)
<flocculant> everyone expires
<akxwi_dave> just like taxes and death! :-)
<davmor2> slickymasterWork: you can renew it yourself you should of had an email that say renew
<slickymasterWork> davmor2, it's a moderated team, I can not do it. Just one of the team's admins has the possibility to do it 
<flocculant> davmor2: we've 2 testy teams - the testers which people can just join and the QA one which is a way for people to involve themselves more and is a step towards joining Xubuntu Team
<Unit193> Not jumping on Xenial yet. :P
<flocculant> Unit193: close :p
<davmor2> flocculant: ah okay my bag
<flocculant> Unit193: I thought I might run a released version for a whole day :p
<Unit193> Honestly, you should run it a month or two.
<flocculant> davmor2: did it cost five new pence
<flocculant> Unit193: but then I would be back and forth
<Unit193> Get a rest after a release though!
<flocculant> I am :)
<Unit193> xfce4-pulseaudio-plugin (NEW) 0.2.3-1 uploaded by Yves-Alexis Perez (corsac)
<slickymasterWork> btw knome, I'll be setting up the -docs branch for Xenial tonight, through the weekend at the most
<flocculant> so what you mean is that by Monday it'll be done :p
<slickymasterWork> nopes, ungrateful flocculant :P
<flocculant> :)
<slickymasterWork> :)
<flocculant> it's docs so meh :p
<slickymasterWork> hah
<slickymasterWork> your MP will land in Xenial flocculant 
<flocculant> done my bit - handed slickymasterWork an enormous pile of changes :D
 * slickymasterWork will deal with them
<knome> slickymasterWork, ok, ping me if you need help
<knome> bbl
<ali1234> flocculant: sorry, what?
<Unit193> Did a couple syncs. \o/
<knome> getting up to full speed already then, eh?
<Unit193> Nope, just been wanting to get that in since 2015-09-16.
<knome> wrooong answer
<Unit193> Can't get your hopes up!
<knome> :D
<Unit193> https://code.launchpad.net/xubuntu-default-settings branched wily/registered the series, doing on artwork too.
<knome> good good
<Unit193> Bah, I give up.
<knome> on what?
<Unit193> Seems the series wily can either own the wily repo, or the target can be xenial, not both.
<Unit193> Fine, it'll be wrong then.
<knome> :P
<Unit193> https://code.launchpad.net/xubuntu-artwork set series wily to branch wily â Target changes back to wily, change target to Xenial â series wily and series xenial target xenial branch.
<knome> hmm.
<Unit193> Oh, you have to change the focus to wily in two different places, and in the correct order. >_<
<Unit193> I'll leave this to Simon next time, sigh.
<knome> haha
<Unit193> I think everything is prepped then.
<knome> nice
#xubuntu-devel 2015-10-24
<bluesabre> Unit193: yo
<Unit193> bluesabre: Yeeees?
<bluesabre> Unit193: ah, nvm, looks like you sorted the xenial branches
<Unit193> Approve?
<bluesabre> knome or somebody might want to create xenial for xubuntu-docs
<bluesabre> Unit193: yup, good work
<Unit193> Right, couldn't touch it.  I also did that screenshooter sync you had sitting there. :>
<bluesabre> Unit193: excellent
 * bluesabre can take a vacation with Unit193 around
<Unit193> Hah, suuuure.
<Unit193> You still have those python programs to keep up with. :P
<bluesabre> :D
<bluesabre> taking the car to be serviced tomorrow, should have plenty of time to work on one of those
<Unit193> Anything bad?  With the car that is.
<knome> bluesabre, slickymaster said he'd do that
<bluesabre> Unit193: nope, just maintenance
<bluesabre> knome: great
<ochosi> bluesabre, flocculant: bumped our -release membership till the end of 16.04
<bluesabre> ochosi: alrighty
<bluesabre> (and thanks)
<ochosi> np
<ochosi> and fwiw i'll be around this weekend (@LO hackfest)
<ochosi> i saw you've set up pretty much everything for xenial already
<ochosi> so i guess i'll focus on other things
<ochosi> (like improving the LO experience in xubuntu a bit)
<ochosi> bluesabre: how about when porting xfce4settings to gtk3 we show the xfwm4 shortcuts in keyboard-settings>shortcuts as well?
<ochosi> then we only need to add a small switch in xfwm4 to detect that xfce4-settings is there and just hide the tab there
<ochosi> sort of re: kb-shortcuts overlay
<ochosi> also saw that gtk3 integrated some in app kb shortcut overlay in the toolkit, maybe we can learn from that one
<bluesabre> ochosi: Unit193 took care of most things
<bluesabre> ochosi: yeah, with gtk 3.20, its going to be super easy to introduce a keyboard overlay
<bluesabre> and we can probably just bum the relevant code
<ochosi> yeah, for now i'd just like to improve the way we can set kb shortcuts, sucks a bit that those things would be in two places 8also because you cannot easily very easily detect double-assigns)
<bluesabre> I may be around for a bit later today... not sure what sort of connection will be available where I'll be
<bluesabre> ochosi: agreed
<ochosi> to the worst i can work on finalizing the LO icon eintegration
<ochosi> there are still some rough edges there
<ochosi> seems i need to drop all inherited icons and then re-include them via makefile
<bluesabre> yeah
<ochosi> (at least upstream it works like that)
<ochosi> plus i need to set up my gerrit account etc
<bluesabre> I'll try to take a look at that this weekend if you don't do it first
<ochosi> but i would presume those things should be easily resolved today
<bluesabre> oh goodie
<ochosi> well, LO hackfest, so... ;)
<bluesabre> :D
<ochosi> btw, have you had a chance to check out the notifyd-gtk3 port?
<bluesabre> not yet, but I've seen the ML chatter
<bluesabre> sounds excitingly functional
<ochosi> i think i have to send a patch for the alignment of the labels
<ochosi> drives me nuts that those are centeresd now
<bluesabre> ew
<bluesabre> yeah, please do
<ochosi> it just doesn't look right...
<ochosi> and there still seems to be some issue with styling the progressbars
<ochosi> no idea why the styles don't get applied, the css *should* be correct
<ochosi> (i mean my css obviously)
<ochosi> other than that, the next step is including symbolic icons and trying those ourt
<bluesabre> maybe not specific enough?
<ochosi> nah, the window has a name, so it should be specific enough
<bluesabre> anyway, wife is wondering why I am sitting around still
<bluesabre> gotta run!
<bluesabre> :D
<ochosi> plus everything else (labels, buttons) works fine that way
<ochosi> hah, sure hf!
<xxvirusxx> hello guys
<xxvirusxx> Where can be translated xfce4-weather-plugin? I don`t find nothing on launchpad
<dkessel> mhh - will we be doing a wallpaper contest for xenial?
<knome> dkessel, we can do one if there are people interested to run it
<dkessel> more like taking part in it :)
<knome> well that, but it takes some effort to organize it as well
<dkessel> sure. i wonder what marketing has to say about that ;) ping pleia2
 * knome is a member of both artwork and marketing teams which would be responsible for that ;)
<knome> but sure, it depends what other people want as well
<knome> i don't have a strong opinion either way
<knome> making people involved is great, but not if nobody is interested in doing the work required to run the contest and just does because it "needs" to be done
<dkessel> i think a new set of community wallpapers would be nice. the current ones will be two years old in april
<knome> yep
<knome> one of the question marks is the quality of contributions to the contest too
<knome> i'd hate to select from not-so-good alternatives
<knome> especially because at that point i'd probably just vote against including anything
<knome> which would obviously be a bad thing too
<dkessel> was there a lack of good alternatives last time?
<knome> well let's put it like this: there was a narrow tip of high quality contributions, and a wide variety of not-so-good ones
<dkessel> mhhh. ok. something for the next team meeting maybe?
<knome> sure
<knome> for reference, all submitted ones: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Roadmap/Specifications/Trusty/CommunityWallpapers/Accepted
<knome> and for completeness, you have to remember we were/are looking for good *wallpapers*, and all good photographs won't make a good wallpaper for example
<dkessel> okay. quite a few nice photographs. but sure, it also has to work as a wallpaper...
<knome> exactly
<dkessel> added it to the agenda. got to go. good night
<knome> thanks, and good night :)
<ochosi> evening all
<knome> hello ochosi 
#xubuntu-devel 2015-10-25
<knome> hah
<ochosi> morning all
<flocculant> morning ochosi 
<ochosi> how's everything?
<flocculant> pretty weekendy :P
<ochosi> :]
<flocculant> you? 
<ochosi> in between having a day off and actually working on stuff :)
<ochosi> interesting feeling i haven't had for a while
<ochosi> atm i'm hacking on LO a bit
<ochosi> (realizing how long it takes to build, even if it's an incremental build with ccache)
<flocculant> :)
<ochosi> so hopefully i'll get us some tiny improvements today
<ochosi> but yeah, no promises ;)
<flocculant> I've got a check of all the testcases done now - so they should be ready soon to start pushing that 
<ochosi> cool
<flocculant> probably going to not do so much iso calling this cycle unless there's a reason - still hoping that the autotest effort will work
<flocculant> apart from milestones 
<ochosi> yeah, now that i'm actually using jenkins at work i'm more and more convinced that we need to make use of it
<flocculant> ochosi: well - the reason we aren't is because it doesn't actually work atm :p
<ochosi> yeah, i guess we'd need to write unit tests for our apps
<flocculant> oh right
<flocculant> I see 
<flocculant> THAT again :p
<ochosi> then things could be tested automatically and you'd see with each build whether everything still works
<flocculant> we stopped because gtk2 mostly
<ochosi> but since there are no unit tests in xfce, we're pretty much on our own there
<knome> fortunately we can also upstream stuff and help xfce
<flocculant> instrospection fails with gtk2 apparently 
<ochosi> yeah, tbh i haven't looked at autopilot
<ochosi> knome: sure, but then again it also needs to be ported to gtk3 (and it's not like xfce things break all the time and we *desperately* need unit tests)
<knome> :)
<ochosi> so it's a question of priorities imo
<slickymaster> !team ! the xenial branch for the docs is created and the development focus is changed to the new branch
<ubottu> slickymaster: I am only a bot, please don't think I'm intelligent :)
<slickymaster> !team | the xenial branch for the docs is created and the development focus is changed to the new branch
<ubottu> the xenial branch for the docs is created and the development focus is changed to the new branch: bluesabre, dkessel, flocculant, jjfrv8, knome, krytarik, lderan, micahg, Noskcaj, ochosi, pleia2, slickymaster, Unit193
<knome> ahhah
<slickymaster> don't laugh knome 
<knome> :X
<slickymaster> just got home, without sleeping :P
<slickymaster> knome, want to check it, please?
<slickymaster> just to make sure everything is alright
<knome> ok ok :P
<flocculant> why's there a utopic at https://code.launchpad.net/xubuntu-docs ?
<knome> slickymaster, should be set now
<knome> flocculant, for your viewing pleasure, sir
<knome> flocculant, fixed
<slickymaster> teah, you beat me to it knome 
<knome> of course
<slickymaster> lol
<flocculant> sad - miss it already :p
<SwissBot> feed xubuntu-docs had 16 updates, showing the latest 3
<bluesabre> morning all
<bluesabre> dkessel, knome: I agree that we should refresh the community wallpapers for xenial
<bluesabre> announcing that early might help get better ones in the long run
<bluesabre> I feel like we started that a bit late in trusty, maybe not
<Unit193> Except all the effort, of course. :P
<bluesabre> well yeah
<bluesabre> we can also have more people in the team help narrow it down
<bluesabre> I don't remember how we submitted them before, but I can help with submission/comparison tools
<Unit193> I remember embedding the copyright info into each image.
<bluesabre> so we create some web tools that require that information on submission
<Unit193> Overkill?
<bluesabre> maybe
<bluesabre> somebody else (elementary maybe) might already have such a tool
<bluesabre> maybe I'll crank something like that out one weekend and toss it up on my github
<ochosi> hey bluesabre 
<bluesabre> hey ochosi 
<ochosi> well, tbh the community wallpapers are something at least i personally don't want tobe responsible for
<ochosi> if even a project like ubuntu only gets 40 submissions per cycle, you can imagine how many we will get
<ochosi> and the last time the percentage of good submissions that were not triggered by us (or me) getting in touch directly with artists was extremely low
<bluesabre> right
<ochosi> so basically our current set is the result of me contacting artists...
<ochosi> that was what made it laborious
<bluesabre> so we improve the submission process so post-submission contacts are reduced
<ochosi> and another caveat is that if we announce a contest we should really put some contenders in the final image
<ochosi> but what if the submissions are not good..?
<ochosi> but yeah, those are my 2cents on this
<bluesabre> we include the existing ones in the competition
<ochosi> if somebody else is motivated to take it on, i'm all for it
<bluesabre> otherwise the community wallpapers are just the community wallpapers from years ago
<ochosi> and yeah, naturally i agree, they should be refreshed
<bluesabre> and thats lame :D
<ochosi> right
<bluesabre> just a few thoughts on it, I'll leave it be now :)
<flocculant> bluesabre: tags - possibly a case of too many options - but we have xubuntu-exp as the base tag, ppa for things reported obviously - maybe add usability - that perhaps we could add to a report once reported *idea* 
<flocculant> also can we get staging xenial ppa 
<flocculant> Unit193: not sure what you think about the things in extra - but that could do with xenial too - I at least use xfdashboard a bit 
<bluesabre> bluesabre: will take a look at updating the PPAs today
<bluesabre> somehow, I would argue the expected behavior described here would not be the expected behavior, https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/thunar/+bug/1509805
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1509805 in thunar (Ubuntu) "right click drag&drop menu's missing" [Undecided,New]
<bluesabre> :\
<flocculant> I would expect left click drag - not sure why I would ever expect right click - unless I had swapped mouse buttons - to do more than give me a menu
<flocculant> nor have I ever seen a menu while dragging 
<bluesabre> yup
<bluesabre> thats not normal usability
<flocculant> bluesabre has six months of these bugs to come :p
<bluesabre> flocculant: yay
<flocculant> bluesabre: yea - totally agreed 
<flocculant> and that :p
 * bluesabre looks forward to responding to lots of bug reports
<bluesabre> gotta run, bbabl
<dkessel> b
<Unit193> flocculant: Yeah I was going to bump the ones in extra.
<flocculant> Unit193: k - I did kind of assume you would be :)
<Unit193> !info xfce4-pulseaudio-plugin
<ubottu> Package xfce4-pulseaudio-plugin does not exist in wily
<Unit193> !info xfce4-pulseaudio-plugin xenial
<ubottu> 'xenial' is not a valid distribution: kubuntu-backports, kubuntu-experimental, kubuntu-updates, partner, precise, precise-backports, precise-proposed, stable, testing, trusty, trusty-backports, trusty-proposed, unstable, utopic, utopic-backports, utopic-proposed, vivid, vivid-backports, vivid-proposed, wily, wily-backports, wily-proposed
<Unit193> flocculant: Anywho, important ones done.
<flocculant> Unit193: cheers 
<dkessel> mhh. in wily, when locking the screen for a while, i get this window prompting me for my user credentials because i would want my own user data... which i do not want :p
<dkessel> the "details" say: action: org.freedesktop.accounts.change-own-user-data
#xubuntu-devel 2016-10-24
<ali1234> woke up this morning, ~/.cache/upstart/startxfce4.log is 51GB
<ali1234> the only reason it's not bigger is cos i ran out of disk space
<ochosi_> hah, fun
<ali1234> well the good news is it doesn't look like a bug in xubuntu
<bluesabre> Unit193, poke
<knome> evening bluesabre :)
<bluesabre> Unit193, I'll work on fixing exo this week
<bluesabre> hey knome 
<flocculant> bluesabre: cool - that bug is a pain :p
<ochosi> bluesabre: after having used gnome-screensaver for a while i have to say it messes up just as badly as light-locker with stuff like lid-close, removing a laptop from the docking station, suspend etc
<ochosi> bluesabre: i often end up in horrible situations where only sysrq keys or a hard reboot help. might all be linked to the intel driver btw, so fairly lock-screen independent issues
<flocculant> ochosi: thanks for testing that :)
<knome> slickymaster, don't know if you noticed, but i set up https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/xubuntu-z-documentation for you
<slickymaster> yes, I noticed last sunday, when I saw the mail
<slickymaster> thanks for doing it
<slickymaster> next week we could start talking about that FAQ we talked about a couple of months ago 
<knome> mhm
<slickymaster> let me first just catch up with some UF issues first as their more urgent
<knome> sure
<slickymaster> :)
<bluesabre> evening all
<slickymaster> evening bluesabre 
<bluesabre> hey slickymaster 
<flocculant> evening bluesabre 
#xubuntu-devel 2016-10-25
<bluesabre> daily builds of menulibre and mugshot are now fixed
<bluesabre> if anybody wants to test mugshot and the camera functionality today, please grab it from https://code.launchpad.net/~mugshot-dev/+archive/ubuntu/daily and also install gstreamer1.0-plugins-good,  gstreamer1.0-tools, gir1.2-cheese-3.0, gir1.2-gtkclutter-1.0
<bluesabre> the camera will likely only function on hardware (or usb through vbox)
<ochosi> \o/ menulibre finally has webcam support!
<bluesabre> looking for tests on xenial, yakkety, zesty
<bluesabre> ochosi, troll :P
<bluesabre> ochosi, thought I might use a standard icon for sgt puzzles collection, but none of them really fit the bill :(
<knome> bluesabre, i have a mockup
<knome> bluesabre, ...somewhere...
<ochosi> bluesabre: :)
<ochosi> yeah, i imagine a standard icon is hard
<ochosi> unless you wanna reuse the generic "plugin" puzzle piece icon :]
 * flocculant mutters something about it only being some visual thing - no importance at all
<flocculant> then wanders over to the troll corner :p
<flocculant> akxwi-dave: most importantly don't forget to hassle bluesabre about which milestones :)
<akxwi-dave> will do..
<flocculant> :)
<flocculant> knome: re that half a discussion we had last week (ish) about support end dates - I guess /usr/share/distro-info/ubuntu.csv has the actual official ones 
<ochosi> Unit193: say, how is the garcon 0.5.0 package composed in your xfce gtk3 ppa?
<bluesabre> evening all
<ochosi> oh hey
<bluesabre> hiya ochosi
<ochosi> or maybe you can help sean
<ochosi> trying to build the panel branch that andrzejr just pushed
<Unit193> Sure, I can help Sean.  Mentally?
<bluesabre> Unit193, impossible.
<ochosi> but despite the fact that i have garcon 0.5.0 installed i get:
<ochosi> checking for garcon-gtk3-1 >= 0.5.0... not found
<ochosi> yeah, missing commas suck
<bluesabre> I haven't looked at the packaging for that
<ochosi> Unit193?
<bluesabre> (yet)
<ochosi> sure, just saying, maybe Unit193 has a hint
<Unit193> ochosi: Got the right package?
<ochosi> i think i do
<ochosi> but i'm refresing apts memory atm
<bluesabre> knome, I'll let you and ochosi battle over icon attribution :D
<knome> huh?
<bluesabre> <knome> bluesabre, i have a mockup
<knome> aha
<ochosi> Unit193: hum, weird, -2-dev wasn't tehre before
<knome> actually i think it's on the old laptop
<bluesabre> in case you want to be awesome and crank one out
<bluesabre> awww
<bluesabre> :(
<knome> well it's less than a meter away from me...
<knome> i'll check in a minute when i've finished my night snack :P
<bluesabre> :)
<bluesabre> I'll probably work on making it work in Fedora next before I do the release
<knome> i didn't know icons needed extra work to work on fedora ;d
<bluesabre> :P
<ochosi> yeah, you know, those guys actually have *standards*
<bluesabre> "does it look like a gnome icon?"
<knome> oh man
<bluesabre> >.>
<knome> somebody used up all the battery
<Unit193> ochosi: FWIW, it'd only appear recently if you're on Zesty. :P
<knome> bluesabre, ochosi: http://temp.knome.fi/xubuntu/sgt-launcher/icon-mockup-1.png
<bluesabre> straightforward
<knome> yep
<bluesabre> more parts of the games at larger sizes? :D
<knome> mhm
<knome> maybe
<knome> though this is an export from an svg already, so it scales
#xubuntu-devel 2016-10-26
<flocculant> akxwi-dave: http://dev.xubuntu.org/#tab-qa :)
<flocculant> bluesabre: updated clutter in zesty - parole ...
<flocculant> works still :p
<akxwi-dave> flocculant: oh joy.. and so it begins  :-)
<slickymasterWork> flocculant -> https://code.launchpad.net/~flocculant/ubuntu-manual-tests/1631530/+merge/308837
<bluesabre> flocculant, ooh
<bluesabre> flocculant, related to clutter, does mugshot daily work for you?
<flocculant> bluesabre: not dug webcam out yet - but I'll try and remember 
<flocculant> and when I see the dev ppa's are set up for me on zebedeedoodah 
<bluesabre> yeah, need to work on that
<flocculant> or is that on some other random ppa?
<bluesabre> https://launchpad.net/~mugshot-dev/+archive/ubuntu/daily
<bluesabre> it was an experimental fix... just happened to be a working one as far as I could tell
<flocculant> aah ok - will try and find the webcam then :)
<flocculant> okey doke
<bluesabre> cool
<bluesabre> akxwi-dave can do it too, you're on qacation
<flocculant> bluesabre: well
<flocculant> it's more a herdingcatcation than qacation :p
<flocculant> I'm happy enough testing things and stuff and obviously using zebedee already - just want a rest from sending pointless mails out :)
<flocculant> bluesabre: found it :p also found the dvi to hdmi cable I thought I'd lost - was going to swap from the nvidia card to onboard intel for a while - thought useful for suspend things - even if not a laptop
<bluesabre> sounds good to me
<flocculant> bluesabre: ummm
<bluesabre> uh oh
<flocculant> 201610251043~ubuntu17.04.1 for mugshot from ppa I have
<flocculant> but only option is browse in mugshot
<bluesabre> flocculant, try installing gstreamer1.0-plugins-good,  gstreamer1.0-tools, gir1.2-cheese-3.0, gir1.2-gtkclutter-1.0
<flocculant> better :p
<flocculant> bluesabre: yep - all good - captured, applied, seen at login screen
<flocculant> ftr - cup of tea seen at login - not me :p
<flocculant> bbl
<flocculant> slickymaster: not much worried about the tasksel testcases - we don't use them, re typo - if there is a typo it exists elsewhere http://paste.ubuntu.com/23383204/
<flocculant> I'll do all of those at the same time
<slickymasterWork> oki doke, flexiondotorg 
<slickymasterWork> I'll review all those for you when you have them done
<flocculant> I'm guessing on a tab fail there :p
<Unit193> That was my guess.
<flocculant> hi Unit193 :)
<Unit193> Howdy.
<flocculant> slickymasterWork: I changed on that mp instead - so it has removed xubuntu, added xubuntu core and a bunch of typo fixes now
<flocculant> no rush there either btw
<slickymasterWork> np flocculant 
<slickymasterWork> it will be down before the sun goes down today ;)
<slickymasterWork> And hey Unit193 
<flocculant> Sunset:		2016-10-26 17:51:18
<slickymasterWork> lol
<flocculant> :)
<slickymasterWork> will have to rush then
<flocculant> see 15:28:59
<flocculant> :)
<Unit193> Howdy.
<slickymasterWork> yeah, I saw that
<flocculant> [15:13:21] <Unit193> Howdy.
<flocculant> :P
<Unit193> What is wrong with your timestamps?
<flocculant> nothing wrong here 
<flocculant> you're just hours out of sync with the real time :p
<slickymasterWork> ahahaha
<slickymasterWork> he's always
<slickymasterWork> it comes with the fact that he never sleeps
<flocculant> that too :)
<slickymasterWork> flocculant, do you think it's necessary to change the review status from 'Needs fixing' to 'Approved' in https://code.launchpad.net/~flocculant/ubuntu-manual-tests/1631530 ?
<slickymasterWork> just asking because you already commited the fix
<slickymasterWork> and I think you forgot to capitalize the 'utc' timezone, flocculant :P
<flocculant> pffft
<flocculant> really don' think that's of importance lol
<flocculant> and I'd not worry too much about status of something I've called fixed committed - so you can approve - makes sense
<qwebirc851080> ok flocculant, done
<flocculant> slickymasterWork: ta - I'll get that all finished tomorrow
<slickymasterWork> ok flocculant 
#xubuntu-devel 2016-10-27
<flocculant> knome: tracker.x.o gives apache default page - not sure if it's supposed to do anything now
<flocculant> was showing on the old roadmap wiki - which I've now changed
<flocculant> rather roadmap wiki pointed at tracker now points to dev.x.o - maybe alias tracker to dev *shrug* 
<knome> flocculant, isn't; we moved everything to dev.
<knome> well, tracker. was in use for a very short time, so we decided not to
<knome> it's mostly contributors who use it and the information has been passed to the devel list :P
<flocculant> yea -- just picked up from #xubuntu
<knome> yup
<knome> bbl
<flocculant> I know where we look - and I've chnged the old roadmap wiki to suit
<knome> yep
<knome> thanks
<ochosi> humm, i just fixed an annoying visual glitch in greybird (or in fact: ubuntu's headerbar patches)
<ochosi> i wonder whether it's worth backporting to 16.10
<ochosi> looks like this when unpatched (can e.g. be seen in evince) https://github.com/shimmerproject/Greybird/issues/157
<flocculant> ochosi: probably nothing to worry about - but just in case you might want to know - zesty, updates to gtk today - username at login is a *lot* smaller than it was 
<knome> ochosi, 16.10 no, it's EOL so quick :P
<flocculant> :)
<ochosi> flocculant: hmm, interesting
<ochosi> i thought that the font-size thing still works in gtk3.22
<ochosi> i presume zesty is on 3.22, right?
<flocculant> ochosi: yea
<flocculant> libgtk-3-0: 3.22.2-0ubun
<ochosi> good to know
<flocculant> np
-SwissBot:#xubuntu-devel- ::xubuntu-artwork:: [greybird] r483 Add workaround for Ubuntu's CSD toolbars (fixes #157)... (by Simon SteinbeiÃ)
#xubuntu-devel 2016-10-28
<flocculant> ochosi: that appears to have worked :p
<ochosi> flocculant: what, the workaround you mean?
<ochosi> so closing the laptop lid and waking up the laptop again with gnome-screensaver shows the same problem (with intel graphics at least) as light-locker: for a split-second you can see the user's desktop
<ochosi> bluesabre, flocculant ^
<ochosi> i'm starting to feel we're not going to gain too much by switching...
<bluesabre> ochosi, indeed, seems so
<ochosi> kewl
<flocculant> ochosi: yea - that workround
<flocculant> and not sure the screensaver thing's kewl - just more bah :)
<bluesabre> :D
<flocculant> certainly something for akxwi-dave to worry about this time around \o/
<bluesabre> Unit193, if possible, can you confirm if that fix I pushed fixes exo/thunar?
<bluesabre> (seems to work for me)
<flocculant> bluesabre: detailed view?
<bluesabre> flocculant, that's the one
<flocculant> aah cool 
<flocculant> not seen that fix anywhere yet
<bluesabre> just pushed it last night
<flocculant> where?
<bluesabre> it was a fix for some old code "We can't do this, whatevs" https://git.xfce.org/xfce/exo/commit/?id=fea2619e6d07ac72b2eff6f408bb3daa2dbdf671
<flocculant> oic 
<flocculant> somewhere I don't look
<bluesabre> :D
<Unit193> bluesabre: Yeah will do that ~Monday.
 * flocculant just patiently waits for zesty ppa's
<bluesabre> Unit193, alrighty
<bluesabre> flocculant, I'll get the PPAs tidied up this weekend
<flocculant> :)
<bluesabre> knome, ochosi, if either of you want to finalize some sort of icon for puzzles, I'll put an initial release out and we can start testing and evaluating if we're pulling those games into 17.04
<bluesabre> going to do some package magic to hide the individual launchers if the super launcher is installed
<flocculant> lol
<knome> bluesabre, i'll send you the SVG version of the one you saw earlier - we can improve that later
<knome> bluesabre, done, ygm
<bluesabre> knome, thanks!
<ochosi> evening bluesabre 
<bluesabre> evening ochosi 
<knome> for what this time?)
<bluesabre> knome, icon
<knome> you already thanked in an email, but you're welcome ;)
<bluesabre> :D
#xubuntu-devel 2016-10-29
<bluesabre> took longer than it should have, but the builds for sgt-launcher in https://code.launchpad.net/~bluesabre/+archive/ubuntu/experimental now hide the individual launchers while sgt-launcher is installed
<bluesabre> time for bed, back tomorrow
<bluesabre> I'll get zesty ppas together tomorrow and a test-friendly sgt-launcher package in there :)
<flocculant> bluesabre: you'll likely not believe your luck here but heyho ... 1st changes to sgt-puzzles since 2014, in -proposed currently,  make this occur > http://i.imgur.com/7dyPUEE.png, note 3 new sgt-puzzle games, http://paste.ubuntu.com/23396261/
<flocculant> ftr I did have individual launchers before upgrade 
<bluesabre> flocculant, lol!
<flocculant> I did consider for a veeeery short time letting you find out about March :p
<bluesabre> :)
<bluesabre> launchpad build servers are *slow* today
<flocculant> :)
<ochosi> bluesabre: sgt launcher is awesome - works fine also with hiding the launchers! btw, that padding on the kb shortcuts for undo and redo seems oddly out of sync: http://i.imgur.com/nBlyPNx.png
<ochosi> but who knows, this may be a bug in gtk
<bluesabre> ochosi, that's the actual game menus, I have no control over those (yet)
<bluesabre> and they're gtk2, dunno how that might also affect them
<bluesabre> new daily ppa for sgt-launcher is at https://launchpad.net/~sgt-launcher/+archive/ubuntu/daily
<flocculant> bluesabre: something awry perhaps - or it's not updated - not seeing new games in launcher
<bluesabre> flocculant, yeah, think I missed something with the packaging, need to review
<flocculant> ok :)
<ochosi> bluesabre: oh ok, that makes sense ofc
<ochosi> bluesabre. Unit193: i presume we plan to ship xfconf-4.12.1 with ZZ, please give me a quick heads up whenever you get to packaging it (i'll steal it for yy)
#xubuntu-devel 2016-10-30
<flocculant> bluesabre Unit193 - seems to be something up with gtk3 bits - with  ppa:xubuntu-dev/xfce4-gtk3 I keep losing panel on startup, could be terminal as that gets lost from launcher if I restore panel from xfpanel switch - also terminal isn't starting
<flocculant> if I purge ppa and restart - all is ok
#xubuntu-devel 2017-10-23
<knome> a wild micahg appears
<flocculant> reminded by knome's early morning appearance, flocculant checks dev tracker for qa blueprint and is sad 
<knome> hmm
<knome> interesting then
<knome> and meh
<flocculant> yup not sure there :)
<flocculant> wonder if it's because not tasks on that yet?
<flocculant> just whiteboard
<knome> oh
<knome> yes, very likely
<knome> :P
<flocculant> that's easy then - we can keep the bp off the tracker \o/
<flocculant> back to waking up
<knome> i don't remember much any more, but i think there was something about LP not mentioning the whole blueprint in an API call if only the whiteboard existed
<knome> but i might remember wrong...
<knome> one thing that has been broken for a bit is the assignee dropdown
<knome> and i have again no idea why
<flocculant> will check again - got tasks now
<knome> yup
<knome> let me run the script manually
<knome> now this gets interesting
<flocculant> you've broken it?
<knome> i have no idea
<knome> again it's a long time since i touched this
<flocculant> :)
<knome> well there it si
<knome> is
<knome> i'll call it on LP API slowness this time
<knome> but the assignee stuff is still borked
<flocculant> yup 
<knome> but that's no surprise :P
<knome> oh hello password
<flocculant> didn't use that bit much (if ever other than testing) personally
<knome> yeah
<knome> the filtering works though
<knome> and the data is correctly in the db...
<flocculant> probably more useful :)
<flocculant> and it's not like we never have meetings
<knome> yes
<flocculant> or at least talk to each other :D
<knome> mhm
<knome> and interesting
<knome> sigh
<knome> just sigh
<knome> le sigh of the sighs
<knome> now it works
<knome> no wonder it wasn't working
<knome> i was poking at code that wasn't ran on production
<knome> because... i just was
<knome> oh well!
<flocculant> you fed it didn't you :p
<knome> mhm
<knome> flocculant, contr docs should be fixed now...
<knome> next fix the logo in them
<knome> ..
<flocculant> ok - thanks 
<knome> well actually hmm
<knome> nvm that comment
<knome> that's for 1804 :P
<knome> anyway, if you see anything weird there, let me know
<flocculant> re that - not doing facebook till I have a cover image for it - seems wrong to have different logos next to each other
<knome> yes
<flocculant> phew
<flocculant> we agreed :D
<knome> so you'll need a logo and a cover photo
<flocculant> yup
<knome> let me check how it looks now in full
<knome> right
<knome> so the new logo didn't make *any* splash on twitter
<knome> good i guess
<flocculant> :)
<knome> flocculant, if you try to make this the cover photo, does it look bad or good? https://pbs.twimg.com/profile_banners/430282295/1453414413/1500x500
<flocculant> no time now - just off to work, will check later - after I've got the current one to revert to :)
<knome> :)
<knome> that then -> https://scontent.fhel1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/523898_392463877469192_753070295_n.jpg?oh=c9c2cb328f7250cbf2b2b2ea6d033ada&oe=5A7734DC
<flocculant> ok - thanks - will look this afternoon :)
<knome> sure, no hurry
<knome> i could theoretically make sure the image works by then too
<knome> flocculant, ygm re: fb images
<flocculant> knome: ack
<flocculant> why that cover?
<flocculant> other than it not needing to be changed because something in 'it' changes
<flocculant> knome: did you want to lose the text in the current cover?
<knome> flocculant, we have the same on twitter
<knome> flocculant, we can revisit at some point
<flocculant> knome: ack - doing that now then
<knome> ta :)
<flocculant> https://www.facebook.com/xubuntuusers/
<knome> the logo looks like the old one on my phone
<knome> Ã¥
<flocculant> downloaded what you mailed me then uploaded it there 
<flocculant> no idea what it is other than that :D
<knome> i'll lookon desktop lter :P
<flocculant> okey doke 
<flocculant> knome: didja look?
<knome> no
<knome> but looking now
<knome> nope, it's still the old one
<knome> or to be clear: the cover photo is ok
<knome> the profile picture not
<flocculant> loks the same to me as the one in the Updated Xubuntu logo mail
<knome> you mean *exactly* same or sameish?:P
<flocculant> send it me again 
<flocculant> sameish
<knome> heh
<flocculant> eg the whiskers look right
<knome> yep
<knome> but they look wrong to me
<knome> ygm
<flocculant> we can play the game till one of us dies - all I'm doing is uploading what you send :D
<knome> in the mail they look fine
<knome> but in fb they look not fine
<knome> so maybe it can be some weeeeird fb thingy
<flocculant> ha ha ha ha 
<flocculant> got the mail
<knome> eg. because i'm not logged in...
<flocculant> oh maybe 
<knome> but why would they show me "your" old profile pic even then?
<flocculant> who knows
<knome> the who?
<flocculant> what about now?
<flocculant> doubtful - they are all older than my mum ... 
<knome> yep!
<knome> now i also see a message saying you updated your profile pic
<knome> ta
<flocculant> yea - worked it out - not concentrating earlier - some crop stuff cropped up
<flocculant> then I think I might have not saved it cos didn't want to crop
<knome> so while you are there
<knome> go edit the about thing
<flocculant> anyway - done that
<knome> make everything say https:// instead of http://
<flocculant> where's the about thing lol
<knome> https://www.facebook.com/pg/xubuntuusers/about/?ref=page_internal
<flocculant> oh nvm
<knome> and for the story, i'd probably lean towards the website intro...
<knome> Xubuntu is a community developed operating system that combines elegance and ease of use.
<knome> Xubuntu is an elegant and easy to use operating system. Xubuntu comes with Xfce, which is a stable, light and configurable desktop environment.
<knome> Xubuntu is perfect for those who want the most out of their desktops, laptops and netbooks with a modern look and enough features for efficient, daily usage. It works well on older hardware too.
<knome> and something about reading more at website ;)
<knome> now you have one finished work item ;)
<flocculant> instead of the really long description?
<knome> yes
<knome> and if we feel like there is some interesting and important information
<knome> that isn't on the website...
<knome> well you know what we should do in that case ;)
<flocculant> heh
<flocculant> knome: what about adding something about contributing - where the 'For Support' bit is?
<flocculant> also I guess https://xubuntu.org/ instead of https://www.
<knome> yes please for the latter
<knome> and yes, a contribution link would be nice too
<flocculant> I'll point to the simple webpage one for that 
<knome> yep
<flocculant> knome: ok - anything else?
<knome> not for fb
<knome> but want to proofread something $else?
<flocculant> ok - all done then
<flocculant> can do :)
<knome> let me send you a quick mail then
<flocculant> yep
<knome> ygm
<knome> Fro contributing
<knome> aFro?
<knome> i'd probably say "To get involved, see"
<knome> that's kind of the thing we keep saying
<knome> or at least i do :D
<flocculant> done
<flocculant> not a little bit of proofreading then lol
<knome> nope...
<knome> i didn't say the task was quick... :P
<flocculant> you in a hurry? 
<knome> mostly to check there aren't any loose ends in the thought
<knome> nah
<knome> whenever you have time
<flocculant> get it to you tomorrow then :)
<flocculant> not easy to strikethrough in tbird :p
<knome> the first draft of this article was written october 4th
<flocculant> aah ok :p
<knome> and this has progressed quickly to this stage compared to what articles usually take :P
<knome> and i've published part of it... as a separate article
<knome> because i had to get that out :P
<knome> for other reasons
<flocculant> heh
<flocculant> had a quick run through - not much to do, will look again tomorrow and no doubt find something else - getting a bit shot now :)
<knome> oki
<knome> thanks already
<flocculant> np as always :)
<knome> \o/
<knome> i have no pending commits for the website
<knome> woooot
<flocculant> heh
<knome> usually they rot from a few months to half a year
<knome> that said,
<knome> let's create some
<knome> (:
<flocculant> bluesabre: can we set some time by soonish to talk package testing/ppa's and stuff? 
 * flocculant wanders off into the night for now 
<knome> nighty night!
<flocculant> night knome 
<knome> slickymaster, https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/xubuntu-b-documentation is set up for you
<bluesabre> flocculant: predictably, our schedules do not align
<bluesabre> :D
#xubuntu-devel 2017-10-24
<flocculant> bluesabre: indeed - maybe Friday evening/night or weekend?
<flocculant> except saturday night :p
<flocculant> knome: ygm
<knome> flocculant, ta, will check later today
<flocculant> np :)
<knome> flocculant, changes done and published
<knome> https://open.knome.fi/2017/10/24/preparing-xubuntu-18-04/
<flocculant> cool
<knome> and tweeted
<knome> and they still think i write in indonesian
<flocculant> :)
<knome> also, https://xubuntu.org/download/
<knome> we almost redirect to that page too
<knome> by almost i mean the old urls without trailing slash do, with don't
<flocculant> that reminds me - 'we' going to document setting up releases/torrents etc? 
<knome> probably
<flocculant> ha ha 
<flocculant> if we don't I'll make sure to ping you 2 days before release then :D
<flocculant> incessantly
<knome> wfm
<flocculant> :)
<knome> btw, the xubuntu website now uses the new logo
<knome> AND noto sans
<knome> ;)
<Unit193> Oh no, not noto!
<knome> to be fair it's so close to open sans that most of you wouldn't even notice the difference
<knome> the biggest difference is that bold is bolder since there is no semibold variant of noto
<flocculant> still think the pc/laptop should move about like roobarb and custard ... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I4aVXeDg3U4
<flocculant> knome: front page 16.04 lts news out of date - we've marched past 16.04.2 ... 
<knome> fixed..
<flocculant> thanks - could have done that - but lazy :p
<knome> np
<knome> fixed some other things while i was there
<knome> mostly switched from text widgets to custom html widgets :P
<knome> (new feature in wordpress)
<flocculant> something that no-one else will have a clue how to deal with then 
<knome> nope :P
<flocculant> s/no-one/me
<flocculant> :D
<knome> it looks almost the same ;)
<flocculant> :)
<knome> instead of sans-serif, you have monospace font
<knome> and no checkbox for autoparagraphs
<knome> but you'll have to add the <p>'s yourself
<flocculant> more work then :D
<knome> yes
<flocculant> sighs at progress :p
<knome> but it's a bit cleaner in a way still
<knome> at least wordpress will now not try to guess what html you wanted to use
<knome> but keep it as is
<flocculant> mostly it's all stuck in the wall above my head - but you know that :)
<knome> yep
<flocculant> some of it sticks though :)
<knome> for our purpose, this is a bit overkill
<knome> but i have some sites where this is very welcome
<flocculant> might have a look at setting up new release there tonight if I remember to look at the list of things
<knome> :)
<knome> ochosi, https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/xubuntu-b-artwork is set up for you
<knome> pleia2, https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/xubuntu-b-marketing is set up for you
<bluesabre> knome, started https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/xubuntu-b-development
<knome> nice
<knome> did you link it to the roadmap BP?
<bluesabre> Unit193: look good? https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/xubuntu-b-development
<bluesabre> knome: I have now
<bluesabre> ochosi: in case you also want to review the above bp
<Unit193> Could just link to the linter?  Also: xfce4-statusnotifier-plugin: Replace xfce4-indicator-plugin  technically it replaces indicator-application.
<Unit193> (But uh, yeah I guess?)
<bluesabre> Unit193: link to the linter?
<bluesabre> Trying to make the workitems a bit finer in spec size so we can track progress better
<ochosi> will try to, busy week though
<ochosi> hopefully i'll get to something towards the end of the week
<flocculant> knome: dates added to roadmap so burndown has dates
<knome> flocculant, thanks :)
<flocculant> also looked at releases on x.org :p
<knome> flocculant, and? :)
<knome> bluesabre, ochosi: what was your idea re: distributor stuff in non-xubuntu-specific packages like elementary-xfce again?
<knome> replace distributor-logo.svg files with xfce logo?
<knome> then make distros do something clever to replace that with their own?
<flocculant> knome: still not sure how to set the [mirror] = thing :p
<flocculant> or whatever it was exactly
<knome> you don't
<knome> the mirror stuff is figured out automatically
<flocculant> oh right - cool enough
<knome> because it follows a specific pattern
<flocculant> k
<knome> (eg. point releases don't affect it)
<flocculant> remember now you talking about torrents and . releases
<knome> yep
<knome> so torrent file do change on point releases...
<knome> that's why they have that manual thing
<flocculant> right
<knome> ochosi, ping!
<ochosi> knome: pong
<knome> ochosi, see above
<ochosi> already on my way out again, but whats up?
<ochosi> yeah, the idea was that we would have distributor-logo as generic icon and symlink to xfce.svg and in xubuntu we point the symlink to xubuntu.svg
<ochosi> at least that was how i imagined it
<knome> mmkay
<knome> i'll push some xubuntu.svg's to the repo then
<ochosi> could be easily done in the debian pkg
<knome> and xfce.svg too
<knome> if that helps?
<ochosi> repo=github i hope, not bzr
<ochosi> sure it does
<knome> of course
<ochosi> you can also set up the symlink and wr have a full cycle to fix the debian pkg
<knome> oki
<ochosi> great!
<knome> (no more questions!)
<ochosi> hehe, ok
<ochosi> gotta take off, really exhausted 
<knome> sleep tight
<ochosi> night!
-SwissBot:#xubuntu-devel- ::xubuntu-docs:: [bionic] r639 Update the Xubuntu logo... (by Pasi Lallinaho)
-SwissBot:#xubuntu-devel- ::xubuntu-docs:: [bionic] r640 Update the changelog... (by Pasi Lallinaho)
<knome> heh
<knome> i just changed the branch name
#xubuntu-devel 2017-10-25
<bluesabre> :)
<bluesabre> lp:xubuntu-artwork bionic branch is ready
-SwissBot:#xubuntu-devel- ::xubuntu-artwork:: [bionic] r327 * debian/xubuntu-wallpapers.links:... (by Sean Davis)
<bluesabre> lp:xubuntu-default-settings is ready
<bluesabre> Will run through the PPAs tomorrow
<bluesabre> flocculant: Regarding the testing PPAs, Friday night (late for you), or generally anytime Saturday will work for me
<flocculant> bluesabre: I can stay awake Friday night probably :)
<amerigena> If there's no assignee or progress on a module in the 4.14 roadmap, does that mean it won't be included in the release?
#xubuntu-devel 2017-10-26
* Unit193 changed the topic of #xubuntu-devel to: Xubuntu Development | Support at #xubuntu | https://dev.xubuntu.org/ | Release Schedule: https://ubottu.com/y/bb | Daily testing with results: http://iso.qa.ubuntu.com/
<bluesabre> The next daily builds of xfce4-settings should finally work again
<bluesabre> Wasn't paying attention, broke when libgarcon-2- became libgarcon-gtk3-
<pleia2> knome: thank you
<ochosi> bluesabre, Unit193: what would be really nice is if we could start the 18.04 cycle by switching to sn-plugin and pa-plugin from the start so we have some time to figure out quirks so that we can decide to revert before the release if necessary
<bluesabre> ochosi: I fully agree
<ochosi> hopefully ninetls will do another release soonish
<ninetls> I will
<ochosi> and then we should consider some of the other gtk3 components
<ochosi> or: gtk3/gdbus
<ochosi> xfconf would be a candidate to consider
<ochosi> also tumbler
<ochosi> if we switch some of these components to 4.13 it could make development/porting easier for ppl
<bluesabre> ochosi: will you be around tomorrow evening (this time)?
<ochosi> good question, i can certainly try
<bluesabre> flocculant and I are planning to meet
<ochosi> ok
<ochosi> for an 18.04 brainstorming?
<bluesabre> It might be good to have a development meeting to kick it all off
<bluesabre> Yeah
<ochosi> makes sense
<bluesabre> Unit193: it'd be cool if you could join in too :)
 * ochosi wouldn't mind re-trying video-chat again at some point
<ochosi> anyway, let's try tomorrow then
<bluesabre> Awesome
<ochosi> you could send out a reminder email with the exact time
<ochosi> maybe more ppl wanna join
<bluesabre> I'm going to get the PPAs updated tonight/tomorrow morning, will go ahead and make it formal meeting for 11 minutes from now tomorrow
<ochosi> sounds good
<ochosi> yeah, we also need a plan for what to put in the staging PPA
<ochosi> ninetls: if you wanna join too that'd be welcome!
<bluesabre> Yeah, that was the main discussion we were planning to have
<bluesabre> I'll go ahead and put together a loose agenda as well
<ochosi> great
<ninetls> ochosi: but I'm using arch :D
<ochosi> hrmm, i think i really should do an xfpm release again soon... tons of translations and several fixes by eric
<ochosi> ninetls: that's your problem! ;)
<ochosi> anyway, gotta get some sleep
<ochosi> night all!
<ninetls> NO ARCH BEST DISTRO YOU DONT UNDERSTAND!!11
<ninetls> oh, I'm in irc, not on reddit
<bluesabre> :D
<bluesabre> nighty ochosi
<ninetls> ochosi: night!
<bluesabre> ninetls, you can just toss our changes into AUR and profit ;)
<ninetls> bluesabre: what changes? I'm not too closely read this chat
<ninetls> bluesabre: also, since you still here, I have small question about gtk :>
<ninetls> how can I check whether gtkcontainer has any children? I can use gtk_container_forall and pass boolean pointer to it
<ninetls> maybe there is something better?
<ninetls> I didn't found anything simple like "gtk_container_is_empty" or "gtk_container_has_children"
<bluesabre> ninetls: g_list_length (gtk_container_get_children (container)) == 0;
<bluesabre> bbl
#xubuntu-devel 2017-10-27
<Unit193> I should likely respond to something...But words are hard!
<bluesabre> Word.
<flocculant> bluesabre: I'll be about tonight - might need a bunch of pings :p
<bluesabre> :)
<flocculant> :)
<flocculant> cos it's 3:45 and I'm now awake :(
<bluesabre> That's really dang early
<flocculant> yup 
<flocculant> woohoo - ppa's at bionic :)
<bluesabre> flocculant: updated the agenda for tomorrow, feel free to add anything else you might be interested in https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Meetings
<bluesabre> Will send the announcement in a few
<flocculant> ok
<flocculant> bionic updates - all from our ppa's :D
<bluesabre> beginning of cycle is always fun with copying ppa packages
<bluesabre> there's probably an easier way :\
<Unit193> I just re-upload, it's pretty easy.
<bluesabre> yeah
<bluesabre> Time consuming though
<bluesabre> Finally fixed the -settings package
<Unit193> debuild -tc -sa -S && bppackage ../*.dsc -l ppa:xubuntu-dev/xfce4-gtk3 -b  and it's done.
<bluesabre> That would be the easier way I didn't know about :D
<Unit193> I thought you meant literally copying the package forward.
<flocculant> is there a way to know how many 'people' are downloading from a ppa?
<bluesabre> dget; cd; dch -i; cd ..; dput
<bluesabre> flocculant: Unit193 has some method to get stats
<flocculant> could be useful to know how many 
<flocculant> might be closer to 'testers' than 'I report on trackers' :D
<flocculant> because that's apparently 4 ...
<flocculant> :D
<Unit193> http://paste.openstack.org/show/z29kjW3pJKkweByGIZrP keep in mind this includes builds installing them.
<Unit193> ..It also sometimes miscounts.
<flocculant> Unit193: ta - and ack
<flocculant> after meeting and I push testing mail - might be useful to check a week or so after
<Unit193> I'm, uh. likely going to let bluesabre push to PPAs. :3
<bluesabre> :)
<flocculant> :)
<Unit193> Bionic is around for 3 years, I don't really want to commit to keeping them up to date/functional/backporting for that long. :3
<flocculant> lol
<bluesabre> Our official PPAs promise no support
<bluesabre> And if they are mostly for our use or testing, not sure it's necessary to keep them up to date unless somebody in the team has a need for them
<bluesabre> Anyhoo, up too late, night all
<flocculant> night night
<ninetls> bluesabre: gtk_container_get_children produces a list which I should free. also it implemented using the same gtk_container_foreach.
<ninetls> it makes empty list and then call foreach, in each callback call it adds child to the list
<bluesabre> ninetls: yup, was just a quick one-liner example
<Unit193> bluesabre: You see the archive is open?
<bluesabre> Unit193: indeed!
<Unit193> bluesabre: You going to do the uploads I had pending in my head?  I can't remember them. :D
<bluesabre> Unit193: I'll probably get some uploads in tonight
<Unit193> :3
<bluesabre> pa-plug
<bluesabre> you mentioned desktop recently
<bluesabre> also going to discuss at the meeting this evening
<Unit193> Ah right.
<ochosi> some changes to the default settings may also be worth discussing
<ochosi> e.g. a shortcut in whiskermenu to report a bug against xfce or something
<Unit193> https://xfce.org/getinvolved
<ochosi> and with shortcut i mean something like an action
<ochosi> search action
<Unit193> That's a bit harder, unless you know which precise package.  Also, that might become more "interesting" with the infra changes upstream, and the fact this release will be 3 years.
<ochosi> yeah, but we'll need some redirects there anyhow, but you're right...
<ochosi> anyway, was just a thought, maybe we have other good ideas for additional default actions
<ochosi> and pleeease, let's discuss the xfwm4 alt-tab default (those huge previews really don't work well imo)
<Unit193> In the past, distros have pointed at thir own trackers so as not to "spam" upstream with what could be packaging bugs or bugs in old releases long since fixed.
<Unit193> (Which huge previews?)
<bluesabre> the alt-tab image previews with xfwm
<ochosi> yeah, a "lp #1234" shortcut may also be helpful
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1234 in Launchpad itself "Gina is an unmaintainable mess of command line options, environment variables and shell scripts" [Medium,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1234
<ochosi> ooops :)
<Unit193> Yeah wasn't sure if I had a non-default setting, or if we defined "huge" differently.  I'm presuming "show window preview instead of icon" is selected.
<ochosi> yeah, that is currently selected
<ochosi> but tbh based on the feedback from my work colleagues (i've rolled out xubuntu within my company/team) it's not helpful
<Unit193> \o/
<Unit193> And yeah, I either use this, or list mode.
<ochosi> if the window-preview mode could be bound to a different shortcut that could also be helpful
<Unit193> not sure it's worth it.
<bluesabre> Yeah, I prefer the icon only mode or list mode
<bluesabre> I have a few folks where I work (including  3/5 of our web team) using xubuntu :)
 * Unit193 is sure bluesabre does https://i.imgur.com/snLplqq.jpg
<bluesabre> Nah, more like "I use this. You use this."
<ochosi> :)
<ochosi> we could almost do that meeting now
<ochosi> almost everyone is here now
<ochosi> flocculant?
<ochosi> :)
<akxwi-dave> :-) he'll be hiding
<slickymasterWork> yey meeting adjourned \o/
<Unit193> Everyone hides from meetings.
<knome> sure.
<knome> the time might be a bit too late for me this time
<flocculant> ochosi: new job - mon - thursday not available between 7:15 and 5:30, finish early on Friday
<bluesabre> evening all
<flocculant> hi bluesabre :)
<ochosi> hey
<flocculant> hi ochosi 
<flocculant> hope knome turns up so I can corrall you all :p
<ochosi> :)
<flocculant> I might be a bit slow - so I will 'but' to slow you all down :D
<bluesabre> :D
<flocculant> but ...
<flocculant> a bit like that :p
<bluesabre> !team | Meeting in 13 minutes, swing by if you want to pitch in :)
<ubottu> Meeting in 13 minutes, swing by if you want to pitch in :): team is akxwi-dave, bluesabre, dkessel, flocculant, jjfrv8, knome, krytarik, ochosi, pleia2, slickymaster and Unit193
<bluesabre> Who put this? "there's a phuny-thing, but could you please log this meeting to the ubuntu wiki ? so other's can go and read about artful aardvark 17.10."
<bluesabre> :D
<flocculant> could have been slickymaster 
<flocculant> or me :p
<slickymaster> lol
<flocculant> sean - burt is this guy ...
<slickymaster> his nick is yselnne
<flocculant> I will obv remember that 
<bluesabre> hm
<bluesabre> :D
<bluesabre> #startmeeting Xubuntu Community Meeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Fri Oct 27 22:01:17 2017 UTC.  The chair is bluesabre. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
<flocculant> bluesabre: got fot it :D
<flocculant> for :D
<bluesabre> Who's around?
<ochosi> o/
<flocculant> me !!!!!!!!!!!
<flocculant> o/
<bluesabre>  #chair ochosi flocculant slickymaster Unit193
<flocculant> :(
<bluesabre> #chair ochosi flocculant slickymaster Unit193
<meetingology> Current chairs: Unit193 bluesabre flocculant ochosi slickymaster
<slickymaster> can't say I'm not, now
<bluesabre> :D
<bluesabre> Sneaky
<flocculant> gah
<bluesabre> Anybody else want a chair ;)
<flocculant> ...
<bluesabre> Let's get started then
<bluesabre> #topic Open action items
<bluesabre> (and there are none)
<bluesabre> #topic Updates and Announcements
<flocculant> bluesabre: 
<bluesabre> #info Blueprints are up: https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/xubuntu-b-development
<bluesabre> #info The archive is open
<bluesabre> #info PPAs are ready
<bluesabre> #info Feature Definition Freeze on November 30th: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/FeatureDefinitionFreeze
<flocculant> can I jump in right at the start
<bluesabre> flocculant: go for it
<flocculant> make a statement and then we can all go 'argue' mode
<flocculant> ok ... so
<flocculant> we has bugs
<flocculant> we has isues
<flocculant> we has xfce doing stuff
<flocculant> we has xfce doing stuff for the other year
<flocculant> and year
<flocculant> WE have 6 months 
<flocculant> to count for 3 years
<flocculant> can we PLEASE decide soon
<flocculant> then we can ALL test 
<flocculant> that is the Xubuntu 18.04 QA statement
<flocculant> akxwi-dave's not done this 3 year lie
<flocculant> I have
<flocculant> not again.
<flocculant> Full Stop.
<flocculant> bluesabre: thanks ;)
<bluesabre> Cool, good discussion material :D
<Unit193> Right, so 4.13 is a *development* release, by the name alone it really shouldn't be in an LTS.
<flocculant> :D
<bluesabre> yes
<bluesabre> Discussion
<bluesabre> so one sec
<bluesabre> #info Roadmap (all blueprints at https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/xubuntu-b-roadmap)
<bluesabre> Anything else we want to #info?
<bluesabre> (for announcements)?
<flocculant> not from me :D
<ochosi> me neither
<slickymaster> nothing here also
<bluesabre> Allllrighty, onwards :)
<bluesabre> #topic Discussion
<flocculant> soory ;)
<bluesabre> We'll move things around a bit
<ochosi> i vaguely remember we've been there before with 4.12
<bluesabre> #subtopic Xfce 4.13/4.14
<flocculant> I'll wait now - but I have points here
<bluesabre> Agreed that 4.13 is development and we definitely don't want a lot of dev-y things in there
<bluesabre> But I also think there are some things that are more stable now than in the 4.12 branch
<bluesabre> Thunar was *stable* and a nightmare
<Unit193> We're Ubuntu based, means we have PPAs.  Lets use them, then we can have updates all cycle and not be stuck with 4.13.2 when 4.13.6 was released months ago.
<flocculant> point
<ochosi> yeah, PPAs make a lot of sense
<slickymaster> yep
<flocculant> do we have somewhere we can 'point' and call that IT
<Unit193> Thunar has out of tree plugins, the new version has no capability for them.  It's also at this point something that "if it works, don't touch it" in my mind. :D
<bluesabre> Yes, Thunar was the extreme example, I don't want the dev version :D
<ochosi> i also agree with bluesabre, some things are more stable/maintained in the devel cycle. plus it's quite hard to really fully assess the stability of the components
<flocculant> can we just now chuck in gtk3
<bluesabre> At the same time, we also already have some gtk3 components that are dev-level
<Unit193> Yeeah..
<flocculant> what do we have there we can use and force through ppa?
<Unit193> bluesabre: As a slight reminder, don't touch libxfce4ui.
<bluesabre> Unit193: sure thing
<flocculant> can I just make an important point - especially from 'out' view
<bluesabre> flocculant: We have our ~xubuntu-dev PPAs which are about as official as we want to get
<bluesabre> -staging can be a safe place to land bug fixes before they land in SRUs
<flocculant> what are we talking about that we expect tobe gtk3 in 18.04
<bluesabre> That's what this discussion is about :D
<flocculant> bluesabre: cabn we ignore ppa ftm
<bluesabre> Yes.
<flocculant> yea yea - so what?
<bluesabre> So focusing...
<flocculant> give me a list :D
<Unit193> Panel plugins are generally low impact.
<bluesabre> And we already have most of them
<bluesabre> xfce4-notifyd is stable now
<flocculant> pa for the most part is drop in
<bluesabre> yes
<bluesabre> and moreso soon
<flocculant> :)
<bluesabre> exo is stable
<bluesabre> xfce4-settings is dev, but stable (haven't heard otherwise), but probably going to hold until the rest of xfce core is ready
<ochosi> xfpm will get another release
<ochosi> and is also stable
<flocculant> what I would like to do for testing this stuff is quit4e simple, run artful - add this ppa
<bluesabre> Right
<flocculant> can we do that?
<bluesabre> Want to nail down what we want before I start uploading to a PPA
<bluesabre> and to the archive
<bluesabre> Might be a discussion that goes for a few days
<flocculant> that's you're calls
<ochosi> yeah, i'd say we should first get the list
<flocculant> nd that's fine
<flocculant> a
<bluesabre> But definitely glad to start the discussion
<flocculant> I want to be able to say run artful - add this ppa
<bluesabre> flocculant: yes, and we will have that
<flocculant> cool
<ochosi> bluesabre: we could have two "levels" of PPAs for artful
<ochosi> so we can start with 2 lists
<flocculant> if qa has that then we can push forward
<Unit193> I've been pushing everything to xfce4-gtk3.
<ochosi> one that we're confident about, a second one that we're less confident about
<bluesabre> or we don't push for the things we don't trust
<flocculant> Unit193: a weeklyish of numbers on that ppa would be helpful
<ochosi> yeah, but the whole "trust" thing is tricky
<Unit193> ochosi: +1
<Unit193> I don't trust xfpm past 1.4.4 :3
<ochosi> why's that?
<bluesabre> so we could possibly have xubuntu-dev/stable and xubuntu-dev/experimental if we want to go that route
<flocculant> qa position is simple - we'll test - if we have #'s thats great
<flocculant> point
<ochosi> yeah, something like that
<Unit193> Tried it out, didn't exactly go so well, reverted.
<flocculant> important point
 * flocculant waits
<bluesabre> Unit193: thoughts on the 2-ppa system?
<Unit193> bluesabre: Eg, I always push to experimental, wait for someone to tell me to copy over?
<flocculant> #if 'we' have some clue as to something that might land in ppa which could kill everything off - we can use the tracker to point testers to it
<flocculant> eg
<bluesabre> primary target those who want to test things for us
<flocculant> DON@T UOGRADE warning :p
<Unit193> bluesabre: I kind of need something to guide me so I don't go "Oh new $package, uhh...Where the heck does this go?  No clue, I'll just pop it in my repo for now." and forget.
<flocculant> but that takes some communication - whiche even though we're hours apart we're quite good at
<bluesabre> Unit193: yeah, I think that's a good idea. experimental can be a landing place for all those
<ochosi> i think everything can go to experimental
<flocculant> my position is a single ppa if poss
<flocculant> ochosi: ack
<ochosi> and the things that are on our whitelist for bionic go to staging
<flocculant> dev'y peeps
<bluesabre> flocculant: the stable ppa would be the way to go for that, and we can have specific calls for testing for items in exp if needed
<ochosi> another trivial one is xfce4-volume-pulse. i ported it recently
<flocculant> can we not point people to experimental and stagin?
<flocculant> bluesabre: surely we need them to do 'breaky' stuff?
<flocculant> ppa-purge always worked for me
<flocculant> mmm
<Unit193> ochosi: I've seen it, but in light of pa-plug does it matter?  I'm presuming it doesn't do alsa, so you'd not be able to do volumeicon-alsa+xfce4-volumed anymore? :P
<ochosi> true
<bluesabre> flocculant: for staging/exp, we can do the same as we do for SRUs, add -proposed, install the package, remove -proposed
<flocculant> could we not
<bluesabre> If we keep the processes the same, it's easier for contributors coming from anywhere in ubuntu
<flocculant> stuff we really want = staging, not too sure = exp ?
<ochosi> yup, that would be my thought
<flocculant> I'd love to make it simple for testers
<bluesabre> -staging is for updates we plan to land in the archive soon
<flocculant> and then it's simpler for us
<bluesabre> usually for already released series
<flocculant> bluesabre: ok - so add a ppa?
<bluesabre> But glad to do what we can to help qa
<flocculant> dude
<flocculant> we'll test what you give us :)
<bluesabre> (sorry, everybody is really rapid fire right now)
<flocculant> ye
<flocculant> a
<bluesabre> Not used to having meetings with multiple attendees :D
<flocculant> take 5 
<flocculant> catch up on consensus
<flocculant> :)
<ochosi> should we start a piratepad for the two lists of components though?
<bluesabre> ochosi: sounds good to me, want to start that?
<flocculant> ochosi: ie staging and defintes? 
<ochosi> i mean we can do that in parallel to this meeting and keep it open
<ochosi> flocculant: yup
<flocculant> also
<flocculant> what xfce possibles do we want to have - and are they stable enough?
<flocculant> is the other one
<ochosi> http://pad.ubuntu.com/PyIIYsyIfn
<Unit193> What I'm reading here: "There will be multiple PPAs, for different things due to different levels of desire and testing needs." and what I'm interpreting that as: "Unit193 will always upload to experimental, people can copy over what's needed" :P
<Unit193> ochosi: That's not a piratepad, fyi.
<ochosi> potato potato
<bluesabre> Unit193: yes. experimental where all packages can land
<Unit193> I can live with that.
<Unit193> I can also point my package tracker thingy at it.
<bluesabre> and stable where approved (we will ship in bionic/oldstable) packages will be copied to when approved
<bluesabre> Good to have that agreed on
<bluesabre> #action bluesabre to create "stable" and "experimental" PPAs
<meetingology> ACTION: bluesabre to create "stable" and "experimental" PPAs
<Unit193> Basically, as long as we don't confuse flocculant or Unit193, we're good!
<Unit193> What happens with xfce4-gtk3?
<bluesabre> Yup
<bluesabre> I'm not sure yet what we do with our existing PPAs
<flocculant> Unit193: :)
<bluesabre> I think -gtk3 still has a purpose, staging may no longer with stable
<Unit193> flocculant: Also, whatever you want from me, please ask.  I'm generally accommodating enough, but I can't read minds. :3
<bluesabre> :)
<Unit193> bluesabre: -staging was pre-SRU stuff, xfce4-gtk3 is what experimental sounds like.
<flocculant> bluesabre: can we back set 'fairl unused ppa's to artful' assuming then that someone like me would just sety it to Steve Majors?
<flocculant> if I wanted to
<bluesabre> flocculant: I really have no idea what that sentence means
<flocculant> so all our 'we want this stuff tested' was at right version
<flocculant> bluesabre: Steve Majors was the 6 Million Dollar Man 
<bluesabre> flocculant: I know what that is, but nothing more :D
<flocculant> oic failr  - fairly unused
<bluesabre> We'll have the new PPAs only running artful and bionic, and will drop a when c starts
<flocculant> so - I'd move to bionic cos I update daily - not monthly
<bluesabre> So we have everything running the env we want
<flocculant> k - I think that's the same thing :D
<bluesabre> Unit193: I think we can drop the -gtk3 ppa in favor of experimental then
<flocculant> yea
<flocculant> that's my position
<bluesabre> Unit193: you want the task to decomm that PPA (after copying over)?
<Unit193> bluesabre: I can do that, if you put it as blocked by yours.
<bluesabre> Unit193: certainly :)
<bluesabre> #action Unit193 to decommission the xfce4-gtk3 ppa in favor of experimental
<meetingology> ACTION: Unit193 to decommission the xfce4-gtk3 ppa in favor of experimental
<flocculant> bluesabre Unit193 ochosi - what I would like from qa pov - is anything that's likely 18.04 bound in one place
<flocculant> if themesis a pain - then I'll make 1 exception :D
<bluesabre> That's where we're heading with this plan :)
<flocculant> I thought so :D
<flocculant> I just ned something concretish to tell peopl
<flocculant> e
<flocculant> or akxwi-dave does - cos all tasks :p
<bluesabre> flocculant: I'll also add a new template for xfpanel-switch to grab our new panel plugins to make it easier for artful users to get set up
<ochosi> noice
<flocculant> bluesabre: you wanto hold fire there
<flocculant> cos defaults ....
<bluesabre> Yeah, we can't replace panel defaults in an already created session, so that's the next best thing for the panel
<flocculant> bluesabre: but we can have new defaults? or the whole world is on dos6 :D
<flocculant> if only 
<ochosi> could ask testers to create new sessions too, if it's not just about panel settings
<bluesabre> yeah
<ochosi> s/sessions/accounts/
<flocculant> xubuntu council - I would like us to loom at defaults
<flocculant> bah
<flocculant> s/loom/look
<bluesabre> technically we have new defaults available in the daily ppa and can land them in exp/stable when we make them
<flocculant> yea but testing
<flocculant> we've already had 2 weeks of the time we never get :D
<bluesabre> I'm not sure what the question is :D
<Unit193> Log out, flip to TTY, rm -rf ~/.config/xfce4/xfconf/xfce-perchannel-xml/xfce4-panel.xml then log back in.
<flocculant> anyway - point was leave defaults till that discussion
<flocculant> bluesabre: ^^
<bluesabre> gotcha
<Unit193> Right, and here's where the daily PPA is nice, so as not to confuse with experimental.
<flocculant> yea
<flocculant> I think we need 2 for sure
<flocculant> definites/mm reallys 
<flocculant> whichever way we look - we've got freezes to work with
<bluesabre> Yep
<flocculant> MY point is that - if we've got less ppa's to get people loooking
<flocculant> tghen we tghen arrow in on issues
<bluesabre> Correct
<bluesabre> And we don't miss things by running things that won't be included in bionic
<bluesabre> like all the -gtk3 bits of xfce
<flocculant> rather than me seeing something on ppa785 and akxwi-dave seeing the sqame thing on 364 - but same package
<bluesabre> Yup
<flocculant> yea cool
<bluesabre> So we'll get that straightened out quickly
<flocculant> 2 ppa's for the whole cycle wou;ld be great for me
<flocculant> people ppa
<flocculant> kev ppa
<bluesabre> And we'll work on the list for the next few days
<ochosi> yup
<flocculant> type thing
<bluesabre> Anything else we want to discuss?
<flocculant> bluesabre: this is topic 1 :S
<bluesabre> Concerns, team deadlines, etc?
<ochosi> from my side that's the main part
<Unit193> Q: ...Does that mean we'll have to put daily builds in experimental? :/
<bluesabre> Unit193: I think daily should stay in daily
<flocculant> goodgood job it's one topic :D
<Unit193> Good, I don't want those. :3
<bluesabre> They might be months away from any release
<flocculant> oh what
<bluesabre> flocculant: The topics I had were Dev/QA Coordination, Artful -> Bionic testing PPAs, Package updates: Xfce 4.14 components, PulseAudio Plugin, StatusNotifier Plugin ... and we've smashed them all together :D
<bluesabre> flocculant: the daily things
<bluesabre> #action bluesabre, ochosi, and Unit193 to review xfce component list for stable/experimental
<meetingology> ACTION: bluesabre, ochosi, and Unit193 to review xfce component list for stable/experimental
<flocculant> ththatbah
<flocculant> sao 
<bluesabre> Just so we have it on the todo
<flocculant> terminal in bionic hangs and kills irssi
<flocculant> seemingly :p
<bluesabre> :)
<bluesabre> Anything else?
<flocculant> cos oh what - was me doing an 0_0
<bluesabre> :D
<flocculant> nee to think there - not meeting thing, just you 2 and qa
<flocculant> s/nee/need
<ochosi> i'll need to leave quite soonish
<Unit193> bluesabre: Sidebar after meeting?
<ochosi> anything else i can contribute to tonight?
<flocculant> ochosi: just quickly 
<bluesabre> Unit193: sure thing
<flocculant> ochosi: I notice that shimmer stuff comes through rapid - and I kind of know to go look at changelog and ignore 'translation' but how would berty using the ppa have a clue?
<ochosi> you mean the shimmer PPA?
<flocculant> everyone needs to obviously be aware that berty is just some person - for the logs
<flocculant> ochosi: yea
<ochosi> tbh i'm not even sure anymore what's inside these days, i build everything from git...
<bluesabre> Those are daily builds, so not much can be determined just by the package
<ochosi> icon theme and greybird?
<ochosi> or more?
<flocculant> I also see words in xfce-dev about ignore anything languagishy
<ochosi> yeah, we discussed ignoring it in the git log on the web frontend
<flocculant> as it stands
<ochosi> anything else will be hard/impossible/meaningless
<flocculant> non-ppa - check changelog - some words
<ochosi> for greybird there can be needed changes, but we can try to push them through the new PPAs instead of the shimmer PPA
<ochosi> and the icon theme should come through xubuntu-artwork anyhow
<flocculant> ppa- check changelog - ha ha ha ha ha ha - do what buddy, do one, no information her
<flocculant> e
<flocculant> I know - I'll go off if I care and find it
<bluesabre> I would just look at the release pages to see what's new, https://github.com/shimmerproject/Greybird/releases, https://github.com/shimmerproject/elementary-xfce/releases, not a ton of activity on either besides fixes
<ochosi> exactly
<bluesabre> We can probably add links to the PPAs for things that are less clear (like artwork)
<ochosi> i try to write meaningful release messages though
<ochosi> so all changes should be reflected there in a "management summary"
<flocculant> bluesabre: that works for you beCAUSE YOU KNOW git
<flocculant> sorry for odd caps
<bluesabre> flocculant: that's not gitty, it's paragraphy :D
<flocculant> :d
<ochosi> this is really a *management* summary
<ochosi> anyone can read and understand
<ochosi> and if you don't know what certain widgets are, it'll be hard to explain in text anyway..
<ochosi> at least you can google with those release notes
<flocculant> I always end up at some random lp page log knowing that a + is soimething added and a - is a loss
<flocculant> and that mostly all the shimmer stuff is + random language - random langauge
<bluesabre> yeah, stay away from the commits :)
<bluesabre> it's not meant to be understandable
<flocculant> omg the Sapnish guy forgot the word for toilet - never mind someone will remember in the end
<ochosi> the two links above don't go to commits (if you haven't clicked yet)
<flocculant> bluesabre: ack - but only way to see ppa changes :D
<ochosi> yeah, that's a feature request for PPAs :)
<bluesabre> flocculant: right, but there is nothing we can do with that, lp limitation
 * bluesabre shrugs
<bluesabre> Anything else?
<Unit193> I think my stuff is after-meeting?  Not entirely sure.
<bluesabre> Uploads?
<Unit193> Varies.
<flocculant> bluesabre: yea - understood that :p
<bluesabre> We can just do it after then :)
<bluesabre> #topic Schedule next meeting
<ochosi> ok, if there's nothing else where you need my direct input i'll be on my way
<flocculant> nothing more here 
<bluesabre> pleia2: sorry for stealing you meeting slot...
<bluesabre> #action pleia2 to schedule next meeting
<meetingology> ACTION: pleia2 to schedule next meeting
<bluesabre> #endmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting ended Fri Oct 27 23:18:58 2017 UTC.  
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/xubuntu-devel/2017/xubuntu-devel.2017-10-27-22.01.moin.txt
<bluesabre> Thanks all
<bluesabre> Good discussion!
<bluesabre> :D
<Unit193> G'night, people going to sleep!
<Unit193> bluesabre:
<Unit193> Sync'd xfce4-clipman-plugin, xfce4-diskperf-plugin, xfce4-mount-plugin, and xfce4-weather-plugin from Debian.
<Unit193> We've already got..0.11.5? of exo, so I guess we'll roll development on that.  Pull in new garcon?  Is it stable?  We're already rolling development on libxfce4ui, but it's not really changed a whole lot since it supports gtk2/gtk3 and has been since prior releases.
<Unit193> sn-plug I'm all for, been using it since shortly after it came out.  It only specifically replaces indicator-application though.  Is there any specific config we'd like to use with this?
<Unit193> pa-plug I personally haven't been using, but this would replace indicator-sound and xfce4-volumed.  This leaves us with indicator-messages in xfce4-indicator-plugin.
<Unit193> Now in regards to the package tracker thingy dohicky.  It currently tracks Debian/Xubuntu, Xubuntu-staging/artful, and Xfce4-gtk3/artful PPAs.  Am I the only one that uses this?  Not a problem if I am, mind you.
<Unit193> I'd also ask about indicators, specifically in regards to the namespacing and such, but I don't think anyone else knows more either.  I'm kind of upstreamish in Debian, so I suppose technically I should try to answer, but I don't know everything.  I don't know specifically where Ubuntu stands on this.  indicator-sound is the Ubuntu one, ayatana-indicator-sound is Debian's, etc.
<Unit193> And, have I convinced any Xubuntu assets to migrate to Launchpad's git this cycle? :3
<Unit193> I don't think I want to mention Xubuntu Core, I wince when I see it listed in the blueprint.
 * bluesabre is overwhelmed
<Unit193> Sorry. :3
<bluesabre> Unit193: Great on the syncs!
<bluesabre> Unit193: re: libxfce4ui, what's the blocker on it currently?
<ochosi> i think it needs a release
<ochosi> that's the blocker
<ochosi> eric already pushed the fix for the showstopperish issue that was lingering inside (if i'm not mistaken)
<Unit193> ochosi is correct, the current version causes all sorts of issues.  We don't want that.
<ochosi> i can easily release a new version though
<ochosi> not tonight, but tomorrow
<Unit193> ochosi: That last patch is incomplete, though.
<ochosi> hrm
<Unit193> (Easily fixed.)
<bluesabre> Gotcha, so if we get a good release (fully fixed and patched) we can push it to exp and then maybe stable later
<ochosi> yeah, then let's get it fixed and released tomorrow
<bluesabre> garcon is fine for exp for now
<ochosi> i looked into the abyss a little with xfpm today, it needs a lot of code cleanup (@bluesabre: still remember parole from back in the day..?)
<ochosi> but functionally it is ok
<ochosi> only tried to get rid of some notification code
<Unit193> bluesabre: Right, but it's already there so I'm talking Bionic.
<ochosi> that'll take a bit longer, but i think it'll be a nice improvement over 1.4.4
<bluesabre> Unit193: sn-plug,  symbolic icons and menu primary seem like good defaults
<bluesabre> ochosi: cool
<ochosi> for missing symbolic icons please submit issues on github, i'll add them to elementary-xfce where needed
<bluesabre> I think it falls back gracefully
<bluesabre> but yeah
<bluesabre> thanks ochosi 
<ochosi> still
<bluesabre> Unit193: pa-plug will be getting some more tweaks soon to bring it up and past ind-sound, hopefully will convert you ;)
<bluesabre> Unit193: I forgot about the package tracker, but did use it back in the day
<bluesabre> And this should be an active cycle, so I expect that it will be handy again
<bluesabre> Unit193: re: indicators, any idea if there are plans to pull the ayatana ones back into ubuntu (and replace the existing with transition packages)? I'd imagine there's actually bugs being fixed in ayatana land
<Unit193> bluesabre: No clue in regards to Ubuntu, no.  There's no transitional packages/symlinks so far though.
<Unit193> xfce4-indicator-plugin in Debian uses ayatana now though.
<bluesabre> Unit193: any pain associated with moving projects from bzr to git in lp? git's got a bit more oomph and flexibility
<bluesabre> Neat
<Unit193> I'm not entirely sure how well the seed would handle it, but the only thing is bug metadata.
<ochosi> one thing to keep in mind with sni plugin is LTS upgrades
<ochosi> (and now i'm really out)
<bluesabre> nighty ochosi
<bluesabre> Unit193: that could be reason enough to maybe only do the things that have bug tracking disabled for now
<bluesabre> Unit193: and for core/base, was thinking I might take a look at them and refresh the packages
<bluesabre> and we can have knome do the poking
<bluesabre> Fun cycle ahead :)
<Unit193> bluesabre: By that I mean if someone used bzr commit --fixes=174562  then that's lost, but otherwise painless.
<bluesabre> oh
<bluesabre> That's pretty painless then
<bluesabre> I've never used that
<bluesabre> :D
<bluesabre> Didn't know it existed
<bluesabre> Thanks for all the feedback Unit193 :)
<bluesabre> Going to go grab dinner now, will update the meeting notes tonight
<bluesabre> bbl
<Unit193> http://piratepad.net/xubuntu-dev so that's what I'm reading as responses.
#xubuntu-devel 2017-10-28
<flocculant> bluesabre Unit193 - slowly going through the post-me stuff
<flocculant> ind-messages - this is a loss, the almost corresponding xfce plugin is pretty pants imo
<flocculant> using the pa plugin - seems to me the only loss is playlist support
<flocculant> also the odd hover on plugin goives vol % but open plugin and you lose hover vol %
<flocculant> re core
<flocculant> Unit193: will like this - I think that x-team has done what it can, -team should now pass that on to -council, if by middway thorugh this cycle -council have got as far as we have so far then we should blast it out on m/l and blogs, and get the CC involved, because if nothing else we have 2 -team members who'll know how to ring the CC bell, quietly and then I'll ring it really loudly
<flocculant> this has been out of our court for too long now
<flocculant> sorry if bluesabre is overwelmed :)
<flocculant> looking in the chanel list - I see at least flexiondotorg from CC is in channel - so it'll be no surprise, especially as I think he's seen the disc over the last 3 years while we tried to do this
<flocculant> think that's me caught up
<flocculant> bluesabre: - is one of ochosi's pa-plugin things tge playlist doobry? want me to add that to whiteboard - if not so it's just a thing ;p
<Unit193> So when I've got it muted, ind-sound's icon turns red if there's something making noise, same in pa-plug?
<bluesabre> flocculant, Unit193: I'm interested in adding playlist support, color notification, and sub-device switching
<bluesabre> https://launchpad.net/~xubuntu-dev/+archive/ubuntu/stable
<bluesabre> https://launchpad.net/~xubuntu-dev/+archive/ubuntu/experimental
<Unit193> bluesabre: Did you see pad?
<bluesabre> Unit193: yup, not had a chance to poke at it yet
<bluesabre> minutes are up
<bluesabre> archive page updated to show 2017
<flocculant> bluesabre: mark me as someone who will at least test playlist support - kind of have to at this point
<bluesabre> :D
<flocculant> (not something I actively use)
<bluesabre> I'll be testing it too, can't code in the dark :D
<flocculant> for sure - probably likely to test it on something else here :p
<flocculant> personally - while I understand that parole isn'the tool - I wish parole could do those things for me :)
<flocculant> bluesabre: currently I am a mpd client user, with qmpp, clementine and audacious installed
<flocculant> just so you know where the 'plays lots of music' team guy sits :D
<flocculant> mpd through alsa not pulseaudio
<flocculant> usb to dac
<flocculant> think that sums it up
<bluesabre> Cool, good to know
<flocculant> though it useful info sort of - in the meantime it's amost 24 hours since I moaned about foxes - best try and sleep :D
<Unit193> bluesabre: https://ftp-master.debian.org/new/ayatana-indicator-printers_0.1.8-1.html - https://github.com/AyatanaIndicators/ayatana-indicator-sound
<Unit193> bluesabre: I hear the lattermost is now building on Debian and Ubuntu.
<bluesabre> Unit193: very interesting :)
<Unit193> bluesabre: How much do you care about ayatana?  And yeah, the answers would be great. :D
<Unit193> Glad we could go through this.
<bluesabre> Unit193: don't care much, but duplication is silly, would rather ayatana everywhere than ayatana and non- everything
<bluesabre> and more stuff in debian means more support generally
<Unit193> OK, was going to mention Debian stuff, eg #debian-ayatana. :P
<knome> i wouldn't call any PPA "stable" as that's easily interpreted against us
<knome> other than that, no comments on the meeting :P
<knome> and for a suggestion, staging still sounds roght to me
<bluesabre> knome: yeah, staging will still be used, but mainly for SRU purposes
<knome> bluesabre, right, but i wouldn't call any PPA "stable"
<knome> bluesabre, my other suggestion is "beta"
<knome>  though that might be a bit confusing
<knome> i'll update my suggestion... rename "staging" to "sru" and "stable" to "staging"
<knome> (can be "sru-staging" if you want to be verbose/keep the reference to what the PPA used to be called)
<krytarik> Naming a PPA "stable" is rather commonplace (https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+ppas?name_filter=stable), and I think people take it as what it means, and not 'supported'
<knome> krytarik, you think, but tbh, i don't want to answer even one person on #xubuntu about questions it not being stable
<knome> and i don't care what other people/projects do
<knome> it's a trivial naming issue, and if we can avoid any confusion or blame towards the project, i strongle recommended avoiding the "stable" term
<krytarik> As has been indicated in the meeting, if we don't deem things stable we shouldn't put them there.
<knome> i understand
<knome> i'm not talking about what the developers consider the PPA to be
<knome> it's possible that a package in the "stable" PPA is not going to be included in the final release because it has issues (hence the testing on the PPA for the full cycle)
<knome> to be extremely clear, i'm not against the procedure or the usage you  for this
<knome> err
<knome> ...you planned for this PPA in the meeting
<knome> quite the contrary, i couldn't agree more
<knome> it's just the name that bothers me
<knome> because people might interpret it wrong
<knome> (that can happen because many internet people don't really ready anything else except the title in large font)
<knome> *read
<Unit193> flocculant: In regards to your worry about python2.  So far they're just trying to get it off the main ISO, so as long as they don't go patching or disabling features as to not pull in build-depends (like they did with vte), won't affect us.
#xubuntu-devel 2017-10-29
<uofm49426> what is different between xubunt 17.10 17.04 and 16.04 having problem with nm-applet or nework manager and a 3rd party app easytether 8.8 working find in last 2 releases 17.10 not working with it 
<uofm49426> normally i just need to open in mousepad and source-direcory 
<uofm49426> source-directory interfaces.d
<uofm49426> to the interfaces file
<flocculant> I'd agree with knome's points re naming - if we can make it obvious we should
<flocculant> Unit193: ta
<ochosi> yup, same here
<ochosi> (wrt ppa naming)
<ochosi> if you look at the pad, i tried to add names + explanations to the three stages that we have there now
<ochosi> please feel free to adapt/improve
<flocculant> they make sense to me
<ochosi> good good
<bluesabre> morning
<flocculant> morning bluesabre 
<bluesabre> Kinda figured the "Xubuntu QA (Stable/Experimental)" labels made it clear but will go ahead with what's been suggesting
<bluesabre> Keeping the experimental moniker though, "test" will grab all the testers when we don't want it to
<flocculant> ok
<bluesabre> hmmm
<bluesabre> Staging seems like trouble though... separating it from the sru ppa
<bluesabre> It's purpose is to bring the next release (bionic) to artful, instead of current release (artful-proposed) to artful
<ochosi> you can also call them "stage 1" and "stage 2"
<bluesabre> that's 1000% more confusing
<ochosi> hah
<ochosi> well depends
<ochosi> what if we keep it staging and for bionic just change its purpose?
<bluesabre> I'll just rename the existing stable to sru and make it super clear what it's purpose is
<ochosi> although tbh its purpose isn't that different
<ochosi> ok
<bluesabre> s/stable/staging
<knome> yes, staging -> sru or sru-staging
<knome> and stable -> staging
<bluesabre> knome, cert issues on wiki.x ?
<bluesabre> or all *.xubuntu
<knome> bluesabre, poke pleia2 ?
<bluesabre> pleia2: xubuntu subdomains are feeling insecure and it has chrome troubled :)
<pleia2> argh, sorry :( let's see what I can do before airplane
<pleia2> should be ok now
<flocculant> pleia2: firefox is no longer grumpy :)
<flocculant> ty
<pleia2> sure, I need to automate that :\
<bluesabre> thanks pleia2!
<bluesabre> PPAs are updated, now we just need to update the docs (and probably get listed PPAs out of the docs)
<bluesabre> I think it'd be better to put them on the wiki somewhere and update the docs to point to that page
<flocculant> bluesabre: they're pretty rampant in the qa contributor stuff :p
<flocculant> I'll look later on
<flocculant> and yea - that makes sense
<flocculant> bluesabre: got links for the ppa's ?
<flocculant> off out now, bbl
<bluesabre> https://launchpad.net/~xubuntu-dev lists them
<bluesabre> flocculant, knome: documenting here: https://wiki.xubuntu.org/devel/ppa
<ochosi> nice work
<ochosi> icons would probably be nice
<ochosi> and would help identifying the PPAs on launchpad too
<ochosi> not sure if it'll be easy to find proper icons but still
<knome> we can roll our own
<knome> and thanks bluesabre 
<bluesabre> :)
<bluesabre> flocculant (and others), bionic panel layout: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0Bzsg_l2Vsn_dUW5PSVliUTNMcGs/view?usp=sharing
<bluesabre> For best experience: 1) remove indicator-application, xfce4-volumed, indicator-sound, 2) install xfce4-pulseaudio-plugin and xfce4-statusnotifier-plugin, 3) import the above file with xfpanel-switch, 4) restart your session
-SwissBot:#xubuntu-devel- ::xfce4-announce:: ANNOUNCE: xfce4-pulseaudio-plugin 0.3.2 released @ http://xfce.10915.n7.nabble.com/ANNOUNCE-xfce4-pulseaudio-plugin-0-3-2-released-tp49969.html (by Sean Davis-6)
<flocculant> done that except import that panel layout :)
<flocculant> bluesabre: ^^ also thanks for wiki page
-SwissBot:#xubuntu-devel- ::xfce4-announce:: ANNOUNCE: xfce4-genmon-plugin 4.0.1 released @ http://xfce.10915.n7.nabble.com/ANNOUNCE-xfce4-genmon-plugin-4-0-1-released-tp49974.html (by Tony Paulic-2)
-SwissBot:#xubuntu-devel- ::xfce4-announce:: ANNOUNCE: xfce4-statusnotifier-plugin 0.2.1 released @ http://xfce.10915.n7.nabble.com/ANNOUNCE-xfce4-statusnotifier-plugin-0-2-1-released-tp49979.html (by Viktor Odintsev-2)
<ochosi> xfce release frenzy?
#xubuntu-devel 2018-10-22
<akxwi-dave> milamber
<akxwi-dave> is what Pug was called on kelewan
<akxwi-dave> damn dual screen annoyances.. sorry guys wrong window..
<flocculant> knew that anyway :p
<ochosi> bluesabre: so both problems, the flickery scrolling in the panel, and the broken scrolling in xfce4-settings-manager with plugs go away with "GDK_CORE_DEVICE_EVENTS=1". i'm wondering if we should push this to x-d-s in 18.10...
<brainwash> ochosi: shouldn't that be set for all Xfce?
<ochosi> well for the complete session at least i guess...
<brainwash> I meant for xubuntu and non xubuntu (but xfce) users
<brainwash> in xfce4-settings maybe?
<ochosi> not sure
<ochosi> but possibly yes
<ochosi> i consider this a workaround for our lack of xi2 handling (as i said, not even sure what's needed there, maybe we just need to properly resolve all deprecations)
<brainwash> ochosi: would it fix bug 1799255?
<ubottu> bug 1799255 in xfce4-panel (Ubuntu) "Panel state inconsistent at left and top edge of screen" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1799255
<brainwash> reported by a Ubuntu Studio user
<bluesabre> ochosi: oh wow, yeah, sounds like a 18.10 sru to me
<bluesabre> ochosi: I wonder if that causes any bad side effects
<ochosi> bluesabre: well the one side effect i would expect is some xinput2 features missing
<ochosi> so multitouch and stuff
<ochosi> potentially we could also just set the env vars for the panel and settings manager specifically
<ochosi> to avoid any potential negative side effects anywhere else
<bluesabre> That makes sense
<ochosi> but tbh xfce was mostly gtk2 until recently
<ochosi> so no xinput2 support anyway...
<ochosi> so i generally have two hypotheses:
<ochosi> 1) we need to handle xinput2 somehow in our code. (no idea what that would be though)
<ochosi> 2) we don't need to handle xinput2 in our code, but we need to resolve all gdkdevice deprecations so it will work properly.
<ochosi> i guess we can start with 2) and investigate 1) in parallel
<ochosi> it's quite possible that it's a combination also
<bluesabre> Sounds reasonable. At least for the embedded plugs, seems like a breakage in general for plugs
<ochosi> bluesabre: fwiw, we already enforce that env var in lightdm-gtk-greeter too...
<bluesabre> So I see. I wonder if we just need to the it into the affected apps and call it a day
<ochosi> bluesabre: for now i would say it's a good start...
<Unit193> Oh hah!  That's why I'd never see it, I have that var set in /etc/X11/Xsession.d/99unit193 ;P
<ochosi> Unit193: haha, sneaky!
<Unit193> ochosi: Do you know offhand how to disable smooth scrolling, btw?
<ochosi> nope, would have to google too
<Unit193> All I'm finding is to turn off animations, which already are. :P
#xubuntu-devel 2018-10-23
<flocculant> ochosi: xfce 14792
<ubottu> bugzilla.xfce.org bug 14792 in General "Clearing search leaves Settings missing sections" [Normal,New] https://bugzilla.xfce.org/show_bug.cgi?id=14792
<ochosi> brainwash: updated with latest findings: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/xorg-server/+bug/1795135
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1795135 in xorg-server (Ubuntu) "Window buttons are not clickable at the top of the screen" [Undecided,Confirmed]
<theta8> Noticed the Desktop Settings application hangs when your xfce4-desktop.xml is 'outdated'
<theta8> found this after upgrading my existing install to 18.4.1
<theta8> *hangs when after you select a folder to look for images in
<theta8> the xml was not malformed so I'm guessing there was a setting in it no longer supported
<theta8> I've upgraded my existing install at least two other times prior
<flocculant> ochosi: no idea then, normally I'd assume this install was all over the place. But it's pretty much fresh with just our ppa's. 
<flocculant> aah - I see comments in xfce-dev about it
<bluesabre> evening all
<ochosi> heya
<flocculant> hi bluesabre ochosi 
<bluesabre> hi flocculant ochosi
<flocculant> feels odd being here late enough on a school night :p
<bluesabre> glad to see folks still around when I get around
 * flocculant feels positive about just testing and not shepherding :p
<bluesabre> s/shep/mouse/
<flocculant> heh
<flocculant> bluesabre: so anyway - parole bugs where you have to muck about to get something to play to start with
<flocculant> don't ask me to report it 
<flocculant> again :p
 * flocculant goes looking in his list
<flocculant> bug 1705243
<ubottu> bug 1705243 in parole "Play button inactive" [Medium,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1705243
<bluesabre> Yep, got lots of parole bugs to fix from the last 2 cycles
<flocculant> someone I know (well) hates this one
<flocculant> that's from 17.something ...
<flocculant> and currently I've been using parole more - and I second them lol
<flocculant> bluesabre: not sure what info I could gather for that one - but if you do, then I will
<flocculant> not sure if the git version suffers though tbf
<bluesabre> flocculant: thanks, will let you know if I need some patch testing or more details :)
<flocculant> that'd be good - every time I use it - I look at that bug report :p
<flocculant> ochosi: I know that maybe this isn't the way to fix things, but why not just move the default panel to a sensible place - like at the bottom ...
<flocculant> :)
<flocculant> and re the settings issue - I'd be good grabbing from git again to prove fixes
<bluesabre> We can add a panel daily build to https://launchpad.net/~xubuntu-dev/+archive/ubuntu/ppa to make that easier on folks
<bluesabre> Was also thinking of making a tool to refresh your configs based on the current x-d-s to test that more easily
<flocculant> bluesabre: well - once we know what Dippy Doodle is and ppa's work properly again - I'll be adding them all in again
<ochosi> flocculant: thanks, we first have to figure out what's wrong with that custom exo widget (how i'd love to replace that)
<ochosi> in settings i mean
<ochosi> and re: panel location, yeah, that'd be even worse than the workaround i added to the panel ;)
<flocculant> hah to the last one :p
<flocculant> and yea - ack, just let me know and I'll use it to start getting back some love :p
<ochosi> alrighty, not sure how long fixing that may take
<ochosi> actually exo is kinda bluesabre's department ;)
<flocculant> well I'm still here :)
<flocculant> ha ha ha 
<flocculant> shuffle those cards 
 * ochosi tries to sneak out the back door...
<flocculant> he he he 
<brainwash> ochosi: isn't GTK3 to blame for the settings manager glitch?
<ochosi> well potentially
<flocculant> and much else ...
<ochosi> but we also haven't dropped all deprecations
<ochosi> so that can also be a source of weird effects
<ochosi> and custom widgetry doesnt necessarily behave the same in gtk2 and gtk3 if you "just port it"
<brainwash> the same widget is used in thunar, right?
<flocculant> this is exactly why I don't code ochosi :p
<flocculant> 'this year's excuse'
<ochosi> brainwash: yeah, should be exoiconview if i don't misremember
<ochosi> still, wouldn't mind to drop it from the settings manager
<bluesabre> since I can reproduce with the clear button, I can probably figure out the issue
<ochosi> the semi-broken hover effect is also due to that
<ochosi> yeah, probably just a lost refresh/redraw
<bluesabre> gtk is weird with it's events, probably a new one "text-cleared" that doesn't line up with "changed"
<ochosi> maybe a gtk_widget_queue_redraw in a random place will help :p
<bluesabre> will debug it sometime this week (feel free to beat me to the punch)
<ochosi> hah, i'm happy i figured out the panel bug
<ochosi> that ate some of my "free evenings"
<ochosi> next i'd rather start fixing the remaining deprecations
<ochosi> or at least reducing them
<ochosi> both settings and panel need that
<bluesabre> Suppose I can apply your panel changes to each settings dialog
<ochosi> (feel free to support me on that, although i understand it's more boring than adding features)
<ochosi> i think the g_setenv should be enough in the settings manager
<ochosi> it only affects plugged dialogs
<bluesabre> the only real annoying thing I've been working on has been the gigolo port
<ochosi> it's not a problem of the standalone dialogs
<bluesabre> and it's 99% done now
<bluesabre> true
<bluesabre> Should be easy to test that
<ochosi> yup
<bluesabre> will check it out tonight
<bluesabre> gotta help with dinner now, bbl
<ochosi> sure thing
<ochosi> hf
<flocculant> cya later bluesabre 
<ochosi> i'll be hitting the hay now too
<ochosi> night everyone
<flocculant> and good night to you too then :)
#xubuntu-devel 2018-10-24
<Unit193> bluesabre: Sorry, no idea why I CC'd you. >_>
<brainwash> Spass: does setting the env var GDK_CORE_DEVICE_EVENTS=1 fix your panel problem?
<brainwash> https://bugzilla.xfce.org/show_bug.cgi?id=13509
<ubottu> bugzilla.xfce.org bug 13509 in General "Button loses highlight when moving cursor on screen edges" [Normal,Resolved: moved]
<Spass> brainwash, yes, yes it does, just tested on my 18.04 install, I'll update my bug report(s) with that information
<Spass> I added "export GDK_CORE_DEVICE_EVENTS=1" to /etc/X11/Xsession.d/56xubuntu-session
<brainwash> ochosi has added it to the panel code https://git.xfce.org/xfce/xfce4-panel/commit/?id=e56e869
<Spass> don't forget that this doesn't affect xfce4-panel only, Plank for example is also affected
<brainwash> right
<brainwash> bug 1795135
<ubottu> bug 1795135 in xorg-server (Ubuntu) "XFCE window buttons are not clickable at the top of the screen" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1795135
<Spass> and MATE - https://streamable.com/ee9sk
<brainwash> does the env var fix the plank behavior too?
<brainwash> if yes, you could add plank to the Affects list
<Spass> yes, Plank does not flicker now
<Spass> did not check on Ubuntu MATE (with Mutiny layout), since I don't use it, but I guess setting a global env would help with that too
<Spass> not sure if only Mutiny layout is affected tho, that short clip from the link I've sent you is made by ondondil
<Spass> brainwash, I added Plank to "Affects" as you suggested
-SwissBot:#xubuntu-devel- ::xfce4-announce:: ANNOUNCE: xfce4-sensors-plugin 1.3.90 released @ http://xfce.10915.n7.nabble.com/ANNOUNCE-xfce4-sensors-plugin-1-3-90-released-tp52055.html (by Fabian Nowak)
<Unit193> bluesabre: Unfortunately, https://packages.qa.debian.org/t/thunar-archive-plugin/news/20181022T090510Z.html would be good to grab, but cosmic released.  What this means is that thunar-archive-plugin doesn't work with file-roller (not as bad as it could be since we ship engrampa.)
#xubuntu-devel 2018-10-26
-SwissBot:#xubuntu-devel- ::xfce4-announce:: ANNOUNCE: xfce4-clipman-plugin 1.4.3 released @ http://xfce.10915.n7.nabble.com/ANNOUNCE-xfce4-clipman-plugin-1-4-3-released-tp52068.html (by Simon Steinbeiss)
-SwissBot:#xubuntu-devel- ::xfce4-announce:: ANNOUNCE: xfce4-notifyd 0.4.3 released @ http://xfce.10915.n7.nabble.com/ANNOUNCE-xfce4-notifyd-0-4-3-released-tp52070.html (by Simon Steinbeiss)
<Unit193> o\/
<ochosi> mostly translation/maintenance though ;)
<Unit193> Right, but -notifyd has an upstream patch or two over Debian, this means we'll be in sync.  Sync is good.
<ochosi> yup, i noticed
<ochosi> that was another reason to do the release
<TJ-> The lack of supplementary user groups affecting lightdm/pam-kwallet seems to be fixed as of 24th Oct in bionic-proposed with v5.12.7 Bug #1781418
<ubottu> bug 1781418 in kwallet-pam (Ubuntu) "User not being initialized correctly on login" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1781418
#xubuntu-devel 2018-10-27
<Spass> ochosi, should I remove Plank from Affects list from bug 1795135 ? I've just read your last comment there
<ubottu> bug 1795135 in xorg-server (Ubuntu) "XFCE window buttons are not clickable at the top of the screen" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1795135
-SwissBot:#xubuntu-devel- ::xfce4-announce:: ANNOUNCE: gigolo 0.4.90 released @ http://xfce.10915.n7.nabble.com/ANNOUNCE-gigolo-0-4-90-released-tp52073.html (by Landry Breuil-2)
<ochosi> Spass: depends on whether you or others want to track the status of all panel-like apps that are affected
<ochosi> i just felt it suggests something in those apps needs fixing while its actually xorg that is at fault (at least thats how i see it)
<Spass> yeah, I just deleted it to not pollute that bug report
<Spass> it probably isn't a good place to add all those affected apps, agree
#xubuntu-devel 2018-10-28
<brainwash> bluesabre: https://bugs.launchpad.net/debian/+source/acpi-support/+bug/1054299/comments/56
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1054299 in xfce4-session (Ubuntu) "Race condition in suspend scripts reveals desktop" [High,Triaged]
<brainwash> I did not look into this any further cuz I was waiting for someone else to test the patch
<brainwash> that was one month ago though
#xubuntu-devel 2019-10-21
<bluesabre> Definitely... I don't plan to touch 4.15+ packaging until at least after the LTS
<Unit193> We'll see.
-SwissBot:#xubuntu-devel- Reminder: Next meeting chair is knome
#xubuntu-devel 2019-10-22
<bluesabre> Mentioning CSD to Xfce people https://media2.giphy.com/media/3orif2nxe9tn5Zi4JG/giphy.gif
<bluesabre> :'''D
<bluesabre> (thanks ochosi)
<Unit193> I mean, considering some reaction from the devs was a range of "Please no" to "I won't work on anything that has them"...I don't think it's really the right move.
<bluesabre> Yeah
<bluesabre> Unit193: are these also your primary concerns? https://mail.xfce.org/pipermail/xfce/2019-October/036707.html
<bluesabre> If CSD are going to exist in any form, we might be able to just solve the issue
<bluesabre> (s)
<Unit193> I'm a little hazy as to the difference between CSDs and headerbars, tbh.  They tend to come hand-in-hand.
<Unit193> From the sounds of it, I might be able to just drop use-header-bar from a few things, or maybe even patch it out of libxfce4ui...
<Unit193> https://wiki.gnome.org/Initiatives/CSD makes me think of what I previously knew as headerbars.  Anyway, if that's the case they tend to look out of place; take up too much space; and for some reason of which I don't know why, they seem to be less responsive to clicks than alternatives.
<ali1234> CSD is a requirement for headerbars
<bluesabre> Yeah, so basically we're going for 1) https://imgur.com/iom27ES for most applications (this is CSD, non-headerbar decorations), and 2) https://wiki.xfce.org/_media/releng/4.16/roadmap/general_ui/appearance-csd.png for the CSD XfceTitledDialog replacement
<bluesabre> Right, but headerbars are not a requirement for CSD
<ali1234> bluesabre: you can't fix any of the issues raised on that mail while using CSD, it is impossible, because Gtk can't render xfwm themes
<bluesabre> The theme is just one issue
<ali1234> it precludes all of the consistency issues
<ali1234> the functionality issues can't be solved without patching gtk
<bluesabre> The window buttons (except rolling) are already supported, even custom positioning to some extent
<bluesabre> Per-application CSS could, in theory, "roll up" the window contents
<ali1234> you could potentially solve the consistency issues by ripping out the decoration code of xfwm and then replacing it with something powered by gtk, but at the cost of making the functionality problem affect all apps instead of just CSD apps
<ali1234> that would also break all existing themes of course
<bluesabre> Most existing themes would likely have a CSD-titlebar style similar to their Xfwm style... so that breakage could possibly be reduced
<bluesabre> But I know nobody's going to let me demolish Xfwm :D
<ali1234> what do you mean "their xfwm style"?
<ali1234> the xfwm style i use does not have any matching gtk theme. i use adwaita
<ali1234> and i use orion for xfwm
<bluesabre> Right, I'm saying the Orion GTK3 theme includes headerbar and titlebar GTK3 styles
<ali1234> there is no orion gtk theme
<bluesabre> https://www.deviantart.com/satya164/art/Orion-GTK3-Theme-281431756 ?
<ali1234> that's from 2012. it doesn't work any more
<ali1234> like, at all, it's completely broken on modern gtk3
<bluesabre> Right
<ali1234> also the decorations in the screenshot look absolutely nothing at all like the xfwm theme
<bluesabre> (I'd consider that a bug myself)
<bluesabre> Say we release Xfwm5 in 2022, all existing themes would cease function without patching (or at least renaming), so eventually an unmaintained Xfwm theme would become a non-functional Xfwm theme
<ali1234> why would xfwm themes stop working?
<bluesabre> Theoretically, based on them being sourced from /xfwm4 theme directories
<ali1234> just because the theme search directory was renaed?
<ali1234> that's not even something that needs fixing in the theme, that's a packaging issue...
<bluesabre> Any number of reasons... I'm just saying that there's no guarantee it'd work forever, same with any software
<bluesabre> (not trying to argue or discuss particular implementations anymore, just saying)
<ali1234> okay, but so what?
<ali1234> my computer might break tomorrow, i'm not going to smash it up today because of that
<ali1234> i'm probably the only person still using orion - i install it from source
<bluesabre> This is all in response to:
<bluesabre> > you could potentially solve the consistency issues by ripping out the decoration code of xfwm and then replacing it with something powered by gtk, but at the cost of making the functionality problem affect all apps instead of just CSD apps
<bluesabre> > that would also break all existing themes of course
<bluesabre> Simply saying that any given theme, if designed with consistent titlebars in CSD/Xfwm, if Xfwm were to shift away from a custom engine to a GTK one
<bluesabre> Didn't mean for it to spin out of control, speaking in hypotheticals
<ali1234> okay, but there are currently zero themes where that works
<ali1234> i'm not against CSD if you can fix those issues
<ali1234> i have other issues with header bars though
<ali1234> like they make it harder to drag windows because the title bar is full of buttons
<ali1234> they encourage hamburger menus which are equivalent to normal menu bars except everything is crammed under one button
<Unit193> bluesabre: Right, so the second image could just be fixed by patching libxfce4ui, no?  Or would one need to drop the glade option and a bit in the code?
<Unit193> FWIW, I couldn't agree more with https://mail.xfce.org/pipermail/xfce/2019-October/036685.html
<ali1234> how is "force quit unresponsive program" handled with CSD?
<ali1234> i suspect the answer to this is "not at all"
<ali1234> "It is fundamentally unavoidable that client-side decoration are affected by client-side lockups." - mclasen
<ali1234> https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/gtk/issues/215
<ali1234> btw, its possible to dynamically transform headerbars in to toolbars, which allows the program to gracefully disable CSD entirely in all cases
<ali1234> it requires a patch to gtk, but that patch could instead be a custom widget in libxfceui
<bluesabre> I guess I just struggle with the animosity against them generally. If no functionality is lost, no menus are collapsed into a hamburger menu, and theming remained consistent (nothing that window manager theming does not currently carry over), what's the remaining issue? If it's consistency with other applications, the consistency currently stops when the titlebar stops and the rest of the app begins (developers are selfish)
<bluesabre> ali1234: yeah, I thought the same (and messaged ochosi about it)
<bluesabre> > Crazy idea... we could theoretically implement an XfceHeaderBar that would do toolbar things if some config was set to off, headerbar things if enabled
<ali1234> https://github.com/ali1234/headeraway shows how to do it
<bluesabre> Neat
<ali1234> basically you have a widget that is either a header bar or a gtk box... and the api for both is the same, so you just proxy
<bluesabre> right
<bluesabre> Which sounds like a people pleaser
<Unit193> "All things being equal", but they aren't, sooo..
<ali1234> yeah, you do lose functionality... like the ability to kill unresponsive programs... which xfwm can do now
<Unit193> Also they're too big and look awful, soo. :P
<ali1234> it's a big assumption to say all these problems can be fixed... i mean if they could, surely gtk would have done it by now?
<bluesabre> I don't think GTK is interested in fixing non-GNOME things, tbh :)
<bluesabre> I've been chasing nautilus and totem patches as X11 features get deprecated
<ali1234> we should come up with our own stupid UI design
<ali1234> round windows!
<ali1234> horizontal popup menus!
<ali1234> then we can say gnome is behind the times
<Unit193> Enforce one window up at once, and if it's not a full screen application then show the desktop background (not icons, those can be distracting.)
<ali1234> android already did it
<bluesabre> Pretty Maemo also did that, and GNOME did it for a couple releases :)
<ali1234> yeah, hildon, that was actually okay for a phone OS
<ali1234> well, phone UI, the OS behind it was terrible
<Unit193> Win 10 preview did too, didn't it?
<ali1234> only metro apps i think
<ali1234> but maybe the preview could only run metro apps... i dont remember
<bluesabre> oh yeah
<bluesabre> Metro apps in Win8 were fullscreen only, 8.1 added an optional windowed mode, and 10 brought back windows by default
<ali1234> ultimately whoever is willing to do the work gets to decide
<bluesabre> I'm just trying to make sure that there's people left to do the work once the dust clears
<Unit193> Yeah, though I have hope that the thunar and xfce4-terminal maintainers aren't game for the idea. :3
<ali1234> what is the benefit of doing it, from maintenance pov?
<bluesabre> Preps us for Wayland
<bluesabre> I know video is 100% broken in Parole with GTK_CSD=1, other apps are definitely affected in fun and unknown ways
<ali1234> wayland doesn't require CSD - see KDE
<bluesabre> Right, but the GTK CSD mode I think intentionally breaks X11-specific functionality
<bluesabre> At least, from when I've run with it on in the past
<bluesabre> Not sure what else is affected in the backend
<ali1234> probably, but why is parole using that in the first place?
<bluesabre> It's not currently
<ali1234> why does it break then?
<bluesabre> Oh, that being X11 stuff?
<ali1234> yes
<bluesabre> GStreamer video, not crammed through a Clutter actor, seemingly uses X11
<ali1234> how would making it use CSD fix that?
<bluesabre> And we use the X11 accelerated video bits because the Clutter API changed radically
<bluesabre> It forces us to identify and resolve those issues
<bluesabre> I think ochosi had other documented reason for it as well
<ali1234> it's fine to support CSDs in individual apps
#xubuntu-devel 2019-10-23
<bluesabre> As long as they're not Xfce apps (seems to be the general consensus)
<ali1234> no, even if they are, they should support window managers that aren't xfce
<ali1234> but they should also support not-CSD
<bluesabre> Right
<bluesabre> It probably warrants an extended discussion and reconsideration of the issues... not sure how long ochosi is away, probably don't want to push in either direction until he reappears
<Unit193> Ah, from the email thread it seems GTK_CSD=0 should just revert it all to be classic Xfce?
<bluesabre> Yep
<Unit193> So basically, just changing the default.  If there's a non-CSD option, I don't care what the default is.
<ali1234> doesn't work on header bars, at least not on anything i have installed
<bluesabre> In fact, I think it's logical to make the libxfce4ui headerbar implementation respect that
<ali1234> yes
<Unit193> Hrm, I purged catfish from everywhere, I can't test it.
<ali1234> although automatic conversion is still a bit problematic if you go full headerbars like eg gedit
<ali1234> cos then you have this big ugly toolbar and no menu bar
<ali1234> this is what headeraway does: https://i.imgur.com/HSUBgTq.png
<ali1234> screenshot is from before xfwm supported them at all and so you got two decorations
<bluesabre> Gotcha
<Unit193> I could likely use that as I never found an alternative for simple-scan (I've replaced or purged every other CSD/headerbar using application.)
<ali1234> i doubt it still works without fix ups... it's a preload hack and i made it 6 years ago
<bluesabre> So, in theory we could somehow plug that into libxfce4ui, and it would be available for Xfce components, or anything GTK3 in an Xfce session?
<ali1234> it would only work for xfce components that explicitly used it instead of using gtk header bar directly
<bluesabre> Ah, gotcha. So the ideal usecase would still be using it in preload
<ali1234> also, confirmed it no longer works
<Unit193> Bummer.
<ali1234> has no effect on nautilus anyway
<Unit193> (skanlite pulls in too much KDE)
<ali1234> i wouldn't recommend shipping gtk preload hacks in a real distribution
<Unit193> No, it's not the best idea.  I think Lubuntu tried that and it bit them.
<ali1234> third party stuff is somebody else's problem
<ali1234> i think ubuntu did it at one point :)
<Unit193> Oh my.
<ali1234> the hud/dbus menu thing
<bluesabre> Which was my absolute favorite ubuntu feature
<ali1234> maybe im remembering wrong
<ali1234> is that a /s?
<bluesabre> I really thought the hud was awesome
<bluesabre> But yeah, that was a patched GTK that enabled that
<ali1234> it was awesome if you already memorized the contents of every menu in an app
<ali1234> discoverability for new users was terrible... worse than ribbon, or the thing that hid menu items that you rarely used
<Unit193> GTK_CSD=0 LD_PRELOAD=libgtk3-nocsd.so.0 /usr/bin/remmina  looks off. :3
<ali1234> i'm still on 18.04 so i can't really even test this stuff properly
<ali1234> all my xfce is still gtk2
<Unit193> The latter bit is fixable. :3
<ali1234> i'll probably install +1 after christmas
<ali1234> ten stay on it for two years :)
<Unit193> You *could* add the xubuntu-dev/staging PPA, but I doubt you like PPAs.
<ali1234> i love ppas
<Unit193> ...Welp.
<ali1234> i have that ppa installed already
<ali1234> and also experimental
<Unit193> Shouldn't you have all GTK3 then?
<ali1234> no idea
<ali1234> hmm.. my parole is gtk3
<ali1234> but GTK_CSD has absolutely no effect on it
<ali1234> it's more the third party stuff... like my simple-scan has no CSD
<Unit193> That might have been patched out, lucky you.
<ali1234> neither does atril
<Unit193> We switched to Atril because evince did.
<ali1234> oh its a mate fork?
<Unit193> Yep.
<Unit193> engrampa, atril, mate-calc.
<bluesabre> ali1234, Unit193, I created a new proposal that might help with the Xfce conversation. I've already shot this along to the core devs, but what do you think? https://wiki.xfce.org/releng/4.16/roadmap/general_ui/csd_support
<ali1234> bluesabre: works for me. can you add the frozen client bug to the list of problems too please?
<ali1234> this one: https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/gtk/issues/215
<ali1234> i think that one is important because it is not a subjective design issue, CSD is objectively worse in that situation. and because GNOME have declared it unfixable.
#xubuntu-devel 2019-10-25
<Spass> hi all, guess what I'm going to talk about nowâ¦
<Spass> nope, not CSDs :P
<Spass> I'm wondering about deleting some mirrors that seem to be dead
<Spass> for example this one doesn't have Xubuntu no more, it seems - http://mirrors.fe.up.pt/pub/
<Spass> this one isn't updated any more (it stopped on 18.04.1, no .3 there even) - http://ftp.dei.uc.pt/pub/linux/xubuntu/releases/
<Spass> this looks very old too - http://ftp.oleane.net/ubuntu-cd/xubuntu/
<Spass> this looks dead - http://ftp.wa.co.za/pub/ubuntu/ubuntu-cdimage/
<Spass> and this isn't updated since 18.04.1 also - http://ubuntu.mirror.ac.za/ubuntu-cdimage/xubuntu/releases/
<Spass> so I think that we could get rid of these 5 for now? maybe? possibly?
<bluesabre> Spass[m]: go for it :)
<Spass[m]> done
<Spass[m]> I've marked them as inactive for now, will try to revisit them after 20.04 release
#xubuntu-devel 2019-10-26
<bluesabre> thanks Spass[m] 
<bluesabre> Unit193: thoughts on https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/xubuntu-meta/+bug/1848755 ?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1848755 in xubuntu-meta (Ubuntu) "xubuntu and ubuntustudio should not depend on apt-offline (or fix it)" [High,Confirmed]
<Unit193> I don't see why we can't drop it.
<bluesabre> Unit193: and https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/libappindicator/+bug/1848766 ? Would be this resolved with ayatana?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1848766 in xubuntu-meta (Ubuntu) "xubuntu still pulls in Python2 via the python-gtk2-dev b-d in libappindicator" [High,New]
<Unit193> I thought they were claiming those were still maintained?
 * bluesabre shrugs
<Unit193> It's still in main..
<Unit193> But yeah, sync'ing xfce4-indicator-plugin would sort of fix that, though indicator-* would stop working (and only ayatana-indicator-* would work, which currently don't in -indicator-plugin)
<bluesabre> Gotcha
<bluesabre> And indicator-messages I think doesn't have an ayatana equivalent?
<bluesabre> knome: I setup all of the blueprints, what's the process for setting the tracker up? https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/xubuntu-f-roadmap
<Unit193> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/libappindicator/+bug/1740637
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1740637 in libappindicator (Ubuntu) "Remove python-appindicator and gir1.2-appindicator-0.1" [Undecided,New]
<bluesabre> Thanks Unit193 :)
<Unit193> Aren't the blueprints just copied forward? :3
<bluesabre> Unit193: for now :)
<bluesabre> I'm working on getting them up-to-date this morning, and kicking all of the repos to focal
<Unit193> At 5am on Saturday. :3
<bluesabre> :)
<bluesabre> Started earlier than that, first I had to navigate my email inbox
<Unit193> >_<
<bluesabre> It's safe to say, I've been running behind
<bluesabre> !team | Focal roadmap is up (see below link)... please spend some time on these, and I'll put together a planning meeting for next week! It's an LTS, so let's get to it. ;-)
<ubottu> Focal roadmap is up (see below link)... please spend some time on these, and I'll put together a planning meeting for next week! It's an LTS, so let's get to it. ;-): akxwi-dave, bluesabre, knome, krytarik, ochosi, pleia2, slickymaster and Unit193
<bluesabre> https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/xubuntu-f-roadmap
-SwissBot:#xubuntu-devel- ::xubuntu-artwork:: Back to development, release xubuntu-artwork 20.04 @ http://git.launchpad.net/xubuntu-artwork/commit/?id=d6a10bdc3b4f451810e9e42ff07cc9eadfab2787 (by Sean Davis)
-SwissBot:#xubuntu-devel- ::xubuntu-seed:: Drop apt-offline (LP: #1848755) @ http://git.launchpad.net/~xubuntu-dev/ubuntu-seeds/+git/xubuntu/commit/?id=572bb354ab811b402f861c33f53a6d293ef738e7 (by Sean Davis)
<LLIypuk> evening, what would be the right way to update man page for, say, xfce4-panel?
<pleia2> LLIypuk: that would be handled in the Xfce project itself, but a quick glance at the git repo is not making it obvious to me where the manfile source is
<LLIypuk> :)
<LLIypuk> it's vanished (2011->2019)
<pleia2> aha "Since Xfce 4.10 there are no application manuals in the packages." via https://docs.xfce.org/contribute/documentation
<LLIypuk> as the saying goes "read the source, luke"
<LLIypuk> pleia2, ok, thank you
<pleia2> you're welcome :) we do always need contributors to documentation, so if you can find a way to help out, please do!
<LLIypuk> %)
<LLIypuk> and the very first step should be toward improving my English
