#ubuntu-meeting 2005-01-29
<fabbione> (sc
<fabbione> argh
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:mdz] : Tuesday 25 January 2005 16:00 UTC: Community Council meeting -- https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/CommunityCouncilAgenda.  Tuesday 18 January 2005 1600UTC: Technical Board -- http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/TechnicalBoardAgenda. || This is NOT #ubuntu, nor #ubuntu-devel
<fabbione> hi *
<ajmitch> hello
<lamont_r> morning
<zul> hey fabbione 
* lamont_r makes a note to not reschedule holidays onto tuesdays ever again. :-(
<mdz> welcome, everyone
<mdz> time to get started
<mdz> hmm, we lost sabdfl
<Keybuk> heh
<Keybuk> quick, let's finish before he gets back! :D
<mdz> Riddell: are you here?
<Riddell> hi
<Riddell> should we wait for sabdfl?
<mdz> Riddell: so you are currently  a Member?
<ogra> rather commiter
<Riddell> mdz: I'm currently a member with special privilages to upload to universe
<Kamion> ogra: member's the relevant bit; implies he's passed CC
<mdz> ok, so CC signoff already happened
<elmo> not for full maintainership
<ogra> Kamion: yeah, true
<mdz> I don't think we need to go back to CC
<mdz> but mako has been slack in documenting the process ;-P
<elmo> err, yeah we do
<elmo> becoming a universe person requires sign off from only two CC
<elmo> becoming a maintainer is meant to require sign off from full CC and TB, AIUI
<mdz> Member is a community council vote
<sabdfl> hi all
<mdz> welcome back
<Riddell> I'm working on kubuntu so if kdelibs and other bits go into main it would be useful if I could keep working on them
<mdz> we were just arguing about the still-undocumented new membership process
<sabdfl> hmm... i spec'd this out and mailed launchpad and mako
<sabdfl> happy for it to go onto the wiki for further refinement
<sabdfl> what's the question?
<ogra> Riddell for main
<mdz> it's already in the wiki
<mdz> it's been refined, and I think it needs to be properly documented on the main website
<mdz> the notes are here: http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/NewDevelopersAndMaintainers
<mdz> they do not include the modifications for the accelerated universe-only process
<mdz> which Riddell has been through, iirc
<sabdfl> neither did my launchpad spec
<ogra> wasnt that a one timer (riddell aqnd me for universe) ?
<sabdfl> i tihnk we agreed that uploading permission could be component and package
<ogra> at least thats how i understood it
<Kamion> ogra: no, we were trying to define a longer-term process
<sabdfl> so riddell could hapily be given permission to upload to universe *and* specific packages, even if those migrate to main
<ogra> ah, ok, so i misunderstood then
<sabdfl> of course, i hope riddell would qualify for main uploading soon too
<Riddell> (I have been making quite a few mistakes in the packages I've uploaded)
<ajmitch> what is the accelerated universe-only process? I'm sure there are plenty of others (like me) who'd like to do that too 
<sabdfl> ajmitch: find two TB / CC / MOTU folks to approve you
<ajmitch> ok
<sabdfl> ajmitch: sign the CoC
<amu> sabdfl: i would suggest Riddell and give him some help  
<sabdfl> andyou'reoff
<ogra> ajmitch: http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/NewDevelopersAndMaintainers
<mdz> that wiki page is just a bunch of notes from the BoF
<ajmitch> ogra: isn't that for full membership?
<mdz> and doesn't document the process as it stands
<ogra> mdz: but gives some hints at least
<Riddell> ogra: masters of universe is not mentioned there
<ogra> true
<amu> so i vouch for Riddell :) 
<sabdfl> i'll second riddell
<ogra> am i allowed to vote ? 
<sabdfl> riddell, can you get a signed CoC to elmo please?
* fabbione thumbs up
<Riddell> sabdfl: I sent one to mako last week
<elmo> sabdfl: he's sent a signed CoC to mako
<ogra> if so +1 for riddell
<elmo> sabdfl: he can already upload to universe
<elmo> sabdfl: what we're talking about here is full maintainership
<sabdfl> ok rock, thank you
<sabdfl> ah
<elmo> as in, unrestricted uploads to main
<ogra> sabdfl: you approved us both last week ;)
<sabdfl> Riddell: can we stick with universe + specific packages for a while?
<Riddell> sabdfl: sure
<sabdfl> cool
<mdz> if it comes to a vote today, I'd have to plead insufficient information
<sabdfl> can we move on?
<Riddell> anything beginning with a k would be fine
<ogra> heh
<fabbione> Riddell: Kernel?
<mdz> sabdfl: I think so
<lamont_r> fabbione: starts with an L
<Riddell> fabbione: it's called linux in ubuntu
<sabdfl> :-)
<fabbione> damn.. it didn't work :P
<sabdfl> mail storage standardisation
<sabdfl> everyone read the proposal?
* lamont_r read it, kind of favors the counter proposal
<mdz> who submitted the proposal?
<sabdfl> i did
* Kamion also favours the counter-proposal; my local experimentation with maildir didn't endear me to it
* sladen reads it two days ago
<fabbione> sabdfl: this is a religious topic
<sabdfl> right now we have no answer
<sabdfl> even removing postfix doesn't solve the deeper problem
<sabdfl> someone who WANTS mail delivery doesn't get something that Just Works
<lamont_r> sabdfl: true.
<Kamion> mutt is missing several advanced features when forced to use maildir
<sabdfl> it doesn't even Just Work badly
<mdz> the informal discussions that we have had on this subject lead to the irrelevance of Unix-style mail in the desktop
<pitti> I think we should implement the proposal
<lamont_r> mdz++
<sabdfl> ubuntu is not jsut for desktops
* pitti votes for proposal _and_ removing postfix from default install
<Kamion> however, the proposal and counter-proposal seem orthogonal to me
<lamont_r> sabdfl: and apache2 isn't installed in base
<lamont_r> Kamion: I have to agree with you
<sabdfl> i have had concerns with postfix since before warty
<mdz> it is straightforward to have SMTP and IMAP services Just Work after installing dovecot and postfix
<sabdfl> this is orthogonal, as kamion points out
<mdz> using a traditional mbox spool
<lamont_r> I don't think that a crippled postfix install in base is the right answer
<lamont_r> which is what we have in warty
<sladen> Even maildir were promoted, I like the naming conventions in the proposal.  But not sure about the wider topic of Maildir vs. mbox
<sabdfl> lamont_r: agreed
<Kamion> note that shifting to .maildir has implications for NFS-home folks
<lamont_r> sabdfl: but uncrippling postfix requires taht it ask questions, which is why we got where we are
<sabdfl> there are three scenarios on a typical box:
<sabdfl>  - no mail needed locally
<mdz> shifting to delivery-into-homedir has impliications for NFS-home folks
<Kamion> although I do like having SOME kind of maildir naming conventions
<sabdfl>  - basic mail needed locally
<sabdfl>  - sophisticated requirements
<Kamion> mdz: indeed
<sabdfl> at the moment we address none of these
<sabdfl> Kamion: nfs automatically promotes you to sophisticated
<lamont_r> sabdfl: at the moment, the requirement to not listen on any ports by default gives you only 'no mail needed locally'
<sabdfl> anyone who is doing that can setup the configs to suit them
<lamont_r> so why do we install a daemon by default?
<fabbione> sabdfl: we can't address them in a clean way. as soon as we push one way the other 2 will suffer imho
<pitti> What do you think about Keybuk's local-only delivery script? I think that's a nice default installation
<sabdfl> once again, this does not solve the problem
<sladen> lamont_r: except root messages -> first user
<Kamion> sabdfl: yes; but we still have to not gratuitously break things for those folks
<lamont_r> pitti: I like that
<sabdfl> if i drop three pieces of mail infrastructure down right now it does not just work
<pitti> then postfix could install as a full MTA by default
<lamont_r> sladen: that's Keybuk's local delivery thing
<lamont_r> pitti: yes
<sabdfl> and mbox, while it has some advantages for a single app environment, does not work as well when you have multiple apps all sharing the data
<sladen> pitti: like that
<mdz> sabdfl: why doesn't it work?  is there a problem other than postfix being crippled by default?
<sabdfl> Kamion: nothing i'm proposing prevents local configuration to suit a sysadmin
<Keybuk> the trouble is, if you want local mail delivery, you almost certainly have an unwavering love of one particular MDA
<sabdfl> mdz: yes
<mdz> (with dropping the three pieces together)
<Kamion> sabdfl: ok
<Keybuk> and you're going to want to remove postfix and install that instead
<sabdfl> i would like it to work as follows
<lamont_r> Keybuk: iff it's different, of course.
<pitti> mdz: can we agree to discuss both things separately?
<sabdfl>  1. we agree on format and naming
<lamont_r> pitti++
<mdz> pitti: I'm trying to determine whether they're closely related
<sabdfl>  2. we setup ALL our mail components in main (and possibly the bigger ones in universe) to work that way out of the box
<pitti> thing 1: default installation; thing 2: make installations work out of the box
<sabdfl> this allows someone to remove postfix and install exim and have everything else continue to Work
<pitti> mdz: they are completely orthogonal
<sabdfl> then remove dovecot and install UW-Imap and have it Just Work
<mdz> pitti: not if the only reason it doesn't work out of the box is that postfix is crippled
<Keybuk> sabdfl: except if they do that, they have to remove ubuntu-desktop
<mdz> because this works in Debian. trivially.
<sabdfl> then replace mutt with Evo and have it Just Work
<Kamion> Keybuk: ubuntu-base
<pitti> sabdfl: ++
<Keybuk> sorry, ubuntu-base
<sabdfl> i've been digging into this and the trend towards maildir is clear
<mdz> Keybuk: which is exactly the right thing, if you think about it
<Keybuk> I agree Maildir is better than mailbox, and if we go Maildir we should use $HOME/Maildir
<sabdfl> Keybuk: have you read the proposal?
<mdz> because if we decide to switch to a different MTA, they don't want it
<Keybuk> sabdfl: yes, I did
<sabdfl> ~/Maildir is b0rked, because it makes something visible that should not be so
<Keybuk> sabdfl: we could ship a default .hidden file so it's not visible in Nautilus
<mdz> sabdfl: what about ~/Desktop?
<sabdfl> Keybuk: would you like chewing gum with that? <duck>
<mdz> ~/public_html...
<pitti> The only thing I did not like in the proposal were the dot-file folders
<sabdfl> mdz: remember Oxford? i still feel the same way :-)
<Keybuk> sabdfl: it's better than changing *every* *single* MTA/MDA and MUA to respect ~/.maildir
<sabdfl> Keybuk: trivial changes
<sabdfl> i've done it on my own system and it's straightforward
<sladen> Keybuk: trivial changes x10 && have everything work Just So   vs.   No changes and have things sometimes work  (I prefer the former)
<Keybuk> I'd rather we didn't ship an MDA in base at all
<Keybuk> and let people who want local delivery install one
<sabdfl> Keybuk: agreed, however, when you install it it should work
<pitti> Keybuk: but many packages depend on an mta
<Keybuk> sabdfl: oh, most definitely
<Keybuk> why doesn't postfix?  I thought Debian policy required both MTAs and MUAs to respect /var/mail/$USER ?
<Kamion> if we change MUAs to look in ~/.maildir we should arrange that they still look in ~/Maildir if ~/.maildir isn't there
<pitti> cron, for example
<sabdfl> Kamion: +1
<Keybuk> pitti: trivial to change, make it not mail if there's no sendmail
<mdz> if postfix doesn't simply work out of the box, we've broken it, because it works in Debian
<Keybuk> it seems to deliver properly here?
<lamont_r> mdz: no listening leads to a configuration that most people don't want
<sladen> Keybuk: does your local-delivery provide a sendmail -t work a like?
<mdz> lamont_r: but local mail delivery works
<lamont_r> yes
<Keybuk> if I type "mutt", I get a mailbox full of debconf notes
<pitti> Keybuk: agreed
<mdz> likewise
<mdz> and surely dovecot exports /var/mail by default
<elmo> dovecot does automagic
<elmo> to try and determine what you're doing
<mdz> I'd like to consider separately the "make IMAP service just work" and "move to maildir" items
<pitti> so does anybody actually want an installed default MTA on a desktop?
<mdz> I don't
<lamont_r> pitti: no
<sladen> no
<mvo__> no
<lamont_r> local MDA has uses, but no MTA
<pitti> so the first step seems to be obvious, right?
<pitti> remove postfix from desktop and uncripple it again
<Keybuk> mdz: yup (just tried it)
<Kamion> removing postfix from base without replacing it with anything means no /usr/sbin/sendmail, which I'm fairly sure will break some things during installation
<mdz> so we seem to have three distinct issues:
<Kamion> (I might be wrong though)
<mdz> 1. Standardize on maildir?, 2. Have no MTA in base?, 3. have mail service just work?
<pitti> Kamion: Keybuk's MDA would work for this
<mdz> but 3. seems to be a non-issue at present
<mdz> Kamion: we would fix those things
<pitti> mdz: 3 for bendy?
<mdz> the most problematic, I think, is LSB
<mdz> LSB requires an MTA
<pitti> really?
<pitti> not just an MDA?
<mdz> lsb Depends: mail-transport-agent
<Kamion> pitti: indeed, if it existed :-)
<fabbione> Kamion: i am pretty sure a bunch of pkgs will fail to install without an MTA
<sabdfl> 3 is an issue
<mdz> sabdfl: using the standard spool and installing dovecot seems to work fine
<sladen> any idea what Apple did.  They ship Postfix but I've no idea how it's configured
<sabdfl> mdz: you only use mutt
<pitti> Keybuk: "existed" -> Keybuk's MDA? it does exist, I already saw it
<sabdfl> how can we work towards widespread recognition of ubuntu as a mail server if our mail components don't work together?
<mdz> sabdfl: meaning that you are considering the case where the system is both a mail server and a desktop system where people read mail?
<sabdfl> yes
<mdz> rather than a traditional mail server
<mdz> is that a case we need to optimize for?
<sabdfl> fundamentally, we should make sure that any combination of components has the best chance of working, and working well
<sabdfl> of course some experts will have preferences and will customise their systems
<Keybuk> sabdfl: have you got any two examples where mail components *don't* work together?  Because it's Debian policy that they must, so if they don't, we've broken it
<mdz> Keybuk: I think he's talking about, e.g. evolution not reading the spool
<Kamion> Debian policy requires that stuff works together on the inbox, but not on other folders
<Keybuk> hmm, that's actually really really hard to do with Evolution
<Keybuk> because Evolution doesn't behave like that
<Keybuk> the "Local" thing is actually a special thing built-in to evo
<sabdfl> evo does do maildir
<Keybuk> and you really can't persuade it to read /var/mail/$USER instead, without adding an account
<Keybuk> sabdfl: yeah, but *only* if you add an Account
<Keybuk> and that has to have things like a real name, and e-mail address associated with it
<ogra> and a outgoing mailserver
<sladen> Keybuk: could those be created by adduser/useradd when copying skel ?  (GECOS and $USER@localhost)
<Keybuk> sladen: meh, it'd involve adding .gconf and stuff
<Keybuk> welcome back Lunchpad
<sabdfl> ;-)
<mdz> sabdfl: should we be considering this in a Hoary context?
<sabdfl> any further comments?
<sabdfl> mdz: your call, bendy for certain
<mdz> if I have a choice in the matter, this would be a bendy feature
<mdz> we don't seem to have a consensus yet
<mdz> we should have more discussion, and if we can do it for hoary, we will
<mdz> but I don't think we can commit to it yet
<sabdfl> ok
<mdz> I think that maildir is sane
<pitti> mdz: hmm, at least the default MTA should be settled for Hoary IMHO
<lamont_r> mdz: is this your #1 & 3?
<Keybuk> I like the idea of moving from /var/mail/$USER to $HOME/Maildir, I don't like the idea of changing that hugely-standard location (though I can see why people might desire it)
<mdz> pitti: agreed
<mdz> lamont_r: this is regarding #3
<mdz> I have no concrete argument with maildir as a standard mail store
<sabdfl> ok. should we move on to ogra?
<lamont_r> how about mdz's #2?
<mdz> as to whether we should go forth and modify the defaults of all mail software in Ubuntu, that needs to be considered as a release goal in my opinion
<sabdfl> mdz: will need quite a bt of testing to make sure we don't break the GoldenRule
<mdz> #2 was: should we remove the MTA from base in hoary?
<sabdfl> new conf only
<lamont_r> yes
<mdz> I think we should
<lamont_r> mdz: yes it was, and yes we should
<mdz> anyone else have an opinion or comment?
<sabdfl> Kamion: are you happy we can remove postfix and have the installer still work?
<Keybuk> I think no MTA or MDA (not even my bit of Python), fix cron and debconf to only send mail if there's sendmail on the system -- gives server folk free reign to pick an MTA/MDA of choice without conflict
<lamont_r> the question that then comes up is: do we provide some thing (ala Keybuk's code), or not?
<mdz> Keybuk: to be honest, I think mail is the wrong thing for debconf anyway
<sabdfl> Keybuk: does your code have a life outside of birmingham?
<mdz> Keybuk: we should turn those into the hooks that mvo and I discussed
<Keybuk> http://people.ubuntu.com/~scott/sendmail.py
<sabdfl> in the sense of a community, outside interest, outside use?
<pitti> Keybuk: two issues: LSB and how people get notified about failed crons and debconf stuff=
<Keybuk> was written in Matar, and I mailed it to -devel when we first had this discussion :)
<sabdfl> right
<sabdfl> what about nullmail and similar local-only mailers?
<Keybuk> pitti: well, the problem there is people don't, because they don't know they even have local mail until they exit ssh or something :p
<Kamion> sabdfl: I'd only be confident about that with something else providing /usr/sbin/sendmail in its place
<Keybuk> nullmailer is a transfer agent, not a local-delivery agent fwir
<sabdfl> ok
<mdz> the basis for my opinion about removing it is that having local-only delivery isn't really useful
<lamont_r> mdz++++
<mdz> sendmail.py doesn't really address that
<mdz> for Warty, we considered ourselves to be "stuck" with having local mail, because things like cron, at, debconf, etc. relied on it
<lamont_r> well, it provides local-only delviery, which we agreed isn't really useful
<mdz> but for hoary, we have the freedom to consider those bugs if needed
<lamont_r> bugs
<pitti> Keybuk: okay, agreed. But still, LSB cries for sendmail
<Kamion> Keybuk: debconf just calls /usr/bin/mail -s, and tolerates it being absent
<Keybuk> pitti: LSB cries for RPM too, doesn't it?
<lamont_r> mdz: although I have personal religious issues with all the packages that Depend: exim4 | mail-transport-agent
<pitti> Keybuk: we have alien :-)
<mdz> Kamion: perfect
<pitti> Keybuk: it's installed by default just to satisfy LSB, I think
<sabdfl> lamont_r: we can fix 'em ;-)
<Kamion> although I think the GNOME frontend might pop up an error dialog box in that case; we'd want to tweak that
<mdz> pitti: yes, indirectly
<lamont_r> sabdfl: thanks.  I'll quote you on that. :-)
<azeem> "use exim4 or a real MTA"
<mdz> Kamion: if and when the GNOME frontend becomes viable
<sabdfl> mdz: isn't it useful to think that a local mailer allows debconf etc to continue as they currently do, and that if our mail components work together then ANY mail client will immediately see that mail?
<mdz> so it sounds like at most, we should only need to fix cron and at
<mdz> and possibly sudo
<lamont_r> mdz: changing Depends: mta to Recommends: mta???
<ogra> is all this easy addressable on upgrades from warty ?
<lamont_r> mdz: and then postfix* move from base to ship
<mdz> sabdfl: I don't have a use case which isn't better satisfied by other functionality in the system
<mdz> debconf notes _should_ be blackholed by default unless a sysadmin has configured mail, because they only confuse users
<mdz> ones which are relevant to users should become post-install hooks
<mdz> ogra: warty upgrades would retain postfix
<mdz> though the release notes would recommend removing it if it's unused
<ogra> ah, ok...but that means i get a crippled hoary then
<mdz> cron errors _should_ be blackholed unless a sysadmin has configured mail, because those confuse users even more
<Kamion> erk, users wouldn't get errors from their crontabs?
<Kamion> I think that will be a support burden
<sabdfl> Kamion: agreed
<Kamion> "where did the errors go?" "uh ... nowhere"
<mdz> I think you guys are talking about a different kind of "user"
<Keybuk> Kamion: if users are writing crontabs, they're likely to be the kind of user who's installed an mda of their own
<lamont_r> ogra: how so?  If you prefer a different MTA, then once you upgrade to hoary, installing it (and removing postfix) would not remove ubuntu-base
<mdz> a user who can write crontabs can configure mail, too
<Kamion> I think throwing away errors is a bug, period
<Kamion> mdz: yes but if they're coming from another system they might not realise that they need to
<ogra> erm, dont cron errors already go in syslog 
<jbailey> A user who can write crontabs might not have permission to install mail.
<Kamion> ogra: news to me if they do
<mdz> jbailey: a user without permission is a client on a server, and needs to ask their admin to set things up
<mdz> ogra: no, they don't
<Kamion> if we're disabling mail, we need to come up with somewhere else to put cron errors
<jbailey> Just refering back to the support nightmare.
<mdz> Kamion: crontab could emit a warning
<Kamion> syslog would be fine
<mdz> "If you want to receive errors, install a mail-transport-agent"
<Kamion> although potentially an information leak, actually
<sabdfl> Kamion, jbailey: agreed, I think a minimal local-delivery-only agent is the answer
<mdz> syslog would need to be root-only
<Kamion> ugh
<Kamion> systems like that are such a pain
<Kamion> you can never find out what's going on
<sladen> AFAICT, the wording is ''requires /usr/sbin/sendmail *if* the system provides a sendmail compatible MTA'' ... doesn't say anything about /not/ providing a sendmail-compatible
<mdz> local unix mail is a wart on our desktop, and an annoyance on our server
<Kamion> mdz: crontab emitting a warning would be a reasonable option
<lamont_r> crontab emit a warning
<jbailey> sladen: Where are you looking?  Chapter 3 seems to say that Table 3-1 lists the Commands and Utilities required to be present on a conforming system.  sendmail is in the list.
<sabdfl> mdz: any serious MTA would replace it, right?
<sabdfl> this gives us crontab behaviour one would expect
<sabdfl> we can improve the debconf msgs so they are less confusing, or hook them as you described
<mdz> sabdfl: a serious unix mail user either wants postfix (and is thwarted by our crippled default configuration) or wants something else anyway
<sabdfl> thwarted? surely it would be a drop-in replacement?
<lamont_r> sabdfl: crontab would only emit the warning if /usr/sbin/sendmail was absent
<mdz> the hook stuff, by the way, is: http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/InteractiveUpgradeHooks
<Kamion> mdz: s/user/admin/; I've never had a need to care what MTA was installed on a system where I was a mere user
<lamont_r> sabdfl: they expect the config to work, and the crippled default config confuses the hell out of most of the less expert users
<Kamion> well, not beyond knowing where the logs were
<mdz> Kamion: agreed
<sladen> jbailey: that was FHS, I guess LSB ch.3 supersedes that...
<mdz> mail logs aren't generally readable by unprivileged users anyway
<Kamion> that's a bug :-)
<ogra> from my woody server: /var/log/syslog.0:Jan 18 06:23:01 aleph /USR/SBIN/CRON[24496] : (mail) CMD (  if [ -x /usr/sbin/exim -a -f /etc/exim/exim.conf ] ; then /usr/sbin/exim -q ; fi)
<ogra> it obviously is possible
<mdz> sabdfl: if they want postfix, postfix is already there (but broken), so they can't just install it
<mdz> sabdfl: if they want something else, they need to install it anyway
<mdz> so the presence of a crippled postfix in base doesn't satisfy either use case
<sabdfl> mdz: i was proposing a simple local-only mta after install, and a proper postfix on request
<mdz> so if it isn't relative to a sysadmin, and isn't relevant to a desktop user, I think we should remove it
<mdz> sabdfl: that addresses those two problems, yes
<sabdfl> local-only being keybuks or similar
<mdz> but not the problem of local-only mail in the desktop
<mdz> which is that it grows until it consumes the disk
<lamont_r> sabdfl: the issue there is that installing _any_ mta would cause ubuntu-base to be removed
<sabdfl> hm...
<mdz> lamont_r: if that's the only issue, we can address it
<lamont_r> mdz: well, one of several, as you note
<sabdfl> lamont_r: even if ubuntu-base depends on something provided by both the local-only and postfix / exim / sendmail?
<lamont_r> sabdfl: that could work
<Kamion> mdz: applet that pops up when /var/mail/$USER is non-empty?
<Keybuk> Kamion: what would it give you to read it?
<Kamion> you could call it "system events" ;)
<Kamion> Keybuk: no idea
<Kamion> gnome-terminal -e mail ;)
<ogra> hehe
<mdz> Kamion: the messages the user would find in there are entirely cryptic to the average user
* Keybuk beats Kamion with a spoon
<mdz> meaningless and/or frightening
<lamont_r> Kamion: or snarf it into whatever format evo wants it in...
<mdz> they should not be presented to the user at all, in my opinion
<lamont_r> mdz++
<Keybuk> most of the messages we're talking about are really cryptic debconf notes or random output from cron.monthly
<mdz> if the man page database isn't being regenerated properly, the user doesn't need to hear about that; we just need to fix it
<mdz> Keybuk: exactly
<mdz> scrollkeeper blowing up
<jbailey> If they're kept but not displayed, they need to be pruned over time.
<mdz> debconf saying "if you modified this random configuration file, you need to do X"
<mdz> files in /lost+found
<mdz> these are the only kinds of mail found in the default install
<lamont_r> no mta by default, crontab emits a warning.
<mdz> and so it doesn't seem worth the effort of developing tools to help the user see them
<Kamion> mdz: we'll never find out that we need to fix it, of course
<mdz> Kamion: we will, they won't
<Kamion> we won't get bug reports
<lamont_r> Kamion: we will from any users that install an mta
<mdz> Kamion: we won't get bug reports from most users anyway
<lamont_r> which is many
<mdz> they would read the message, not understand it, delete it, and move on
<lamont_r> and we don't want the bug reports from the rest^U
<lamont_r> ok - untrue, and all that
<sladen> Kamion: surely debbugs won't function without an MTA :)
<lamont_r> sladen: if it hits a web interface it will
<lamont_r> or deliveres directly to a named host's smtp port
<Kamion> sladen: surely Ubuntu doesn't use debbugs
<lamont_r> (yes, either of those is problematic)
<lamont_r> not installed on my system...
<mdz> if we remove postfix from base, we solve: 1) the religious MTA issue, letting a sysadmin choose the one they want, 2) the huge, under-acknowledged bug of the local mail spool growing without bound, 3) potential local security issues in the default install (though mitigated by postfix's design)
* lamont_r accepts mdz's bone in #3
<mdz> replacing it with Keybuk's local-only agent solves #3
<Kamion> mdz: TBH I'd be interested to see a system where it grows without bound more quickly than the rate of attrition to changelog.gz, but yeah
<lamont_r> 4) the number of complaints,etc on #ubuntu about the mta being broken
<ogra> mdz: 5) bend all daemons to write to a central log instead of mailing (to not loose the msgs) ?
<lamont_r> ogra: that's not something we fix, that's somethign that maybe needs to be done
<ogra> ubuntu_desktop.log :)
<mdz> ogra: that is a problem to be solved?
<Keybuk> cron seems to already syslog when it starts a cron, should be trivial to also log if it fails
<Kamion> we could then apply logrotate to those logs
<Kamion> and solve the disk-usage problem
<ogra> Kamion: thats the idea :)
<sabdfl> Keybuk: how confident are you in your code for hoary?
<lamont_r> ugh. is pop-con in desktop?
<mdz> Keybuk: it could log a message saying "it failed", but not stderr
<mdz> which is fairly pointless
<mdz> lamont_r: it is, but thom modified it to use HTTP POST
<lamont_r> woot
<mdz> and it's disabled by default anyawy
<lamont_r> I prefer deleted entirely
<lamont_r> (mta, not popcon)
<mdz> because a) enabling it by default is a privacy issue, and b) we didn't want to ask an extra question
<Keybuk> sabdfl: *shrug* it's trivial code, it's mostly just Python's standard modules joined together
<sabdfl> ok
<fabbione> time to change the pix?
<mdz> change its diaper?
* lamont_r thinks he clicked on the wrong spot
<ogra> lol
<ogra> mdz: its ??
<elmo> it's his BT ADSL line that keeps spassing out, not the PIX
<lamont_r> we should really set him up a proper nat box you know...
<fabbione> time to change ADSL?
<Keybuk> fabbione: seems to be a UK-wide problem
<Keybuk> mine's been doing it all day too
<fabbione> ah ok
<lamont_r> time to change countries?
<ogra> Keybuk: no cable in the uk ?
<Keybuk> Mark is the only other person I know with the same Efficient-based line
<lamont_r> wb
<sabdfl> erk
<sabdfl> connection issues
<mdz> I don't have any real problem with moving to Keybuk's MTA as an incremental improvement
<mdz> but it only addresses a small portion of the problem in my opinion
<sabdfl> my vote is for (1) simple local-only keybuk solution, and (2) MailStorageStandardisation
<mdz> and it introduces some new ones
<mdz> sabdfl: do you feel that we should present cron errors and debconf notes to the user by default?
<mdz> because that would seem to be the result of implementing MailStorageStandardisation without doing something to suppress those
<sabdfl> mdz: your call
<sabdfl> yes, if we can make them easy to delete
<lamont_r> mdz: we could do that for bendy, and ship no-mta for hoary?
<mdz> and add a "what is all this confusing crap in my mailbox" entry to the FAQ?
<sladen> only if you can also present them with a button that says ''click here to let me fix it for you''
<sabdfl> we should review the most common messages for, erm, friendliness
<Kamion> it would be easy to merely log debconf notes somewhere rather than shipping them, and I think we should do that
<sabdfl> Kamion: +1
<Kamion> er, s/shipping/mailing/
<lamont_r> Kamion: pruning over time?
<Kamion> lamont_r: logrotate
<ogra> cron as well....
<lamont_r> 'k
<mdz> cron is not so straightforward, being multi-user
<Kamion> root cron jobs could be logged, and others mailed
<mdz> ideally errors would get written to ~user/.cron/log or something
<ogra> mdz: as i showed before, on woddy it writes to syslog by default
<sladen> lamont_r: would it be possible to never show the same error twice (eg, if they saw it yesterday, don't show it them again today)
<Kamion> that would get rid of the "cron.monthly said stuff I don't care about" problem
<sabdfl> mdz: this one i'd like to make visible :-)
<sivang> or a "system notification" buddy :)
<mdz> ogra: show me again?
<sabdfl> ~/cron.log
* mdz gapes
<ogra> /var/log/syslog.0:Jan 18 06:25:01 aleph /USR/SBIN/CRON[24665] : (root) CMD (test -e /usr/sbin/anacron || run-parts --report /etc/cron.daily)
<sabdfl> when it's created, put a baner at the top with instructions
<mdz> ogra: that is not what we are talking about
<Kamion> ogra: I think that's logging the job that got run, not its stderr output
<mdz> ogra: we are talking about when a command fails and outputs an error
<mdz> currently, those are sent via email
<sabdfl> mdz: the reason being, it's something we want the user to notice and are happy for him to delete
<ogra> ahh, ok...so bend stdout to /var/log/syslog then
<Kamion> mdz: it might also be worth getting rid of the "add initial user to /etc/aliases" thing
<mdz> ogra: we discussed some time earlier why that isn't feasible (security)
<ogra> ok
<sladen> what about a panel-applet that is installed but not enabled by default---right-click + add if required
<mdz> Kamion: leave root mail in root's box?
<sivang> sladen: my thought exactly
<Kamion> mdz: yes, you've already made it pretty clear that you don't want the user bothered by it
<Kamion> and the disk space thing is no worse that way
<Kamion> plus it's more clearly separated
<mdz> it's just shuffling the cruft around
<ogra> configuring logrotate to rotate /var/mail/root ?
<Kamion> sure but I think it's a better place for the cruft pending us fixing it
<Kamion> and easier to find the cruft
<mdz> ogra: please, be serious :-P
<ogra> :)
<sladen> I suspect they only message the user is bothered about is ''excessive IDE TimeOuts detected, your disk is shagged''---and that's something that's not reported at the moment anyway
<mdz> I maintain that there is nothing currently sent via email in the default install that a user (not a sysadmin) should see
<sabdfl> ok
<Kamion> hence let's remove the alias as a simple one-stop guarantee of that, first off
<mdz> Kamion: both root's spool and the user's spool are equally invisible in the desktop
<sabdfl> mdz: if that's the case let's go with kamion's loggin proposal for debconf notes
<mdz> we'd need to educate sysadmins to read that log
<sivang> sladen: so a special "admin only applet" to collect all of those msgs out of the mail spool file...
<Keybuk> meh, a mail client panel applet ?!
* Keybuk flees the insanity :p
<sabdfl> sivang, mdz: we could expose that log through Desktop -> Administration -> Logs
<mdz> considering this from a hoary perspective, the biggest bang/buck we get is by removing postfix from base
<Keybuk> sabdfl: we already have Applications -> System Tools -> System Log Viewer
<lamont_r> mdz: all else sounds rather bendy-timeframe
<sabdfl> Keybuk: right, the debconf stuff could link into that?
<ogra> sabdfl: any log could
<Keybuk> sabdfl: yeah, we make debconf and cron spit to syslog so they appear there
<sabdfl> mdz: i'd like to do the MailStorageStandardisation for at least core apps
<mdz> Keybuk: the one which helpfully shows only auth.log?
<sladen> Keybuk: sudo csplit '^From ' /var/mail/root | tail -1
<Keybuk> mdz: that's just a silly default
<ogra> which should be changed :)
<Kamion> I don't think that syslog is a good place for debconf notes
<mdz> it's an application in search of a use case
<sabdfl> Keybuk: syslog isn't the right place for that though
<sabdfl> we need something else
<sabdfl> system events?
<Keybuk> why isn't syslog the right place?
<Kamion> they have a much longer lifetime of potential interest than most stuff in syslog, and are generated much less often
<sladen> System Log Viewer can probably be taught to read other logs by just passing them on the command line?
<sabdfl> also, they are messages, not lines
<Kamion> my syslog is full of junk, debconf notes are only generated on upgrades
<mdz> we're running long on time here; is there a reason we need to discuss this during the TB meeting rather than on ubuntu-devel?
<sabdfl> nope
<Kamion> I want to be able to go back to the last few upgrades
<mdz> we'll get wider feedback there
<Keybuk> sladen: it has a File -> Open menu item
<sabdfl> let's go on to ogra's proposal
<mdz> agreed
<lamont_r> mdz: is concensus then that we remove postfix from base?  and do we have consensus on whether or not to provide a default mda?
<mdz> the question seems to be, should universe uploaders be able to add new packages to universe?
<mdz> ogra: is that an accurate characterization?
<ogra> non debian packages
<Keybuk> don't non-debian packages go into multiverse?
<ogra> selfmade or foreign packaged ones that are not in debian yet
<Keybuk> or am I confused?
<lamont_r> Keybuk: no
<pitti> yeah, dbus-1 :-)
<mdz> Keybuk: no, non-ubuntu-license-compliant packages go there
<pitti> pop up a dialog on a debconf note?
<sladen> Keybuk: I was under the impression  multiverse  was just non-free stuff
<mdz> ogra: I don't think it's relevant where the packages originate
<mdz> besides, new packages from Debian are automatically added anyway
<ogra> as an example i have the graveman package since some weeks on my server, i would like to upload it to have a gtk burning app....
<mdz> I think that universe uploaders should absolutely be able to upload new packages
<ogra> ...but currently it would involve agreement of jdum or mdz
<mdz> they should of course be reviewed before being accepted
<ogra> jdub even
<Riddell> I have already added one new package to universe and have another one awaiting review
<ogra> so i think there should be a written policy
<ogra> that also prevents us from someone loading up a "nazi shooter" for instance
<mdz> ogra: what would the policy cover?
<sabdfl> reviewed by?
<mdz> sabdfl: currently, elmo
<sabdfl> ok
<mdz> with appeal to others where appropriate
<jbailey> What happens when a new universe package conflicts a new Debian package?
<sabdfl> let elmo make the licence call on universe vs multiverse, for one
<mdz> (security review by pitti, etc.)
<ogra> i would like to have it in a way that only critical things steal your time mdz
<ogra> or the others...
<mdz> ogra: my position is that anyone with upload privileges should be able to submit new packages for review
<sabdfl> how can we reduce the impact on pitti/mdz/elmo?
<ogra> thts my point sabdfl :)
<mdz> I don't think I need to be involved at all
<pitti> well, we talk about universe packages, right?
<elmo> mdz: i think we should concentrate on security reviewing main first?
<ogra> pitti: yup
<mdz> elmo: yes
<pitti> so I don't think we need an overly extensive review
<mdz> elmo: I meant in the context of "this looks fishy to me, pitti should look at it first"
<elmo> ok
<mdz> elmo: you'll shout if you're inundated with packages and we need to distribute that duty more, right?
<elmo> sure
<mdz> but I think it'll be a trickle for some time yet
<pitti> would it be possible to put new packages into a public queue?
<pitti> so that anybody can review it?
<ogra> or ist it probably a job for the MOTU master ?
<sladen> universe-staging?
<pitti> as soon as two members/motus give thumbs up, it's approved to universe?
<mdz> pitti: mentors.debian.net-a-like
<pitti> right
<mdz> I think that's a good idea, but there's no pressing need for it yet
<elmo> longer term launchpad solves this
<mdz> good point
<pitti> mdz: I think looking at the list of files shipped in the debs (correct paths, no setuid etc.) would be a good first and quick test
<elmo> I don't think we should invest any energy into solving this until the number of NEW packages becomes a problem for me
<mdz> ogra: are you satisfied with the solution that has been described?
<mdz> elmo++
<ogra> yup :)
<sabdfl> is christoph haas around?
<ogra> nope
<mdz> doesn't seem to be
<mdz> he's ChrisH I believe
<ogra> i pinged him in -de
<sivang> I've called on him let's see if he responds
<sabdfl> elmo: can i ask you to ping us if you aren't able to approve / decline a package within two working days?
<mdz> yes, we did decide to make that type of commitment in Mataro
<sabdfl> we should promise the MOTU that level of service
<elmo> *shrug* k
<sabdfl> if we can't it's a bug on our processes, and we'll need to decentralise further
<mdz> but if someone unknown uploads a huge and complex package, there is no guarantee that we will be able to devote resources to the review within that time
<ogra> sabdfl: i think MOTU should bother canonical as less as it can...
<sabdfl> i'd like universe / multiverse to be relatively liberal
<sabdfl> ogra: agreed
<sabdfl> perhaps if two MOTU have approved the package it goes straight in?
<sabdfl> barring CoC issues ("nazi shooters")
<elmo> and license issues
<sabdfl> elmo: +1
<sabdfl> mdz: that's reasonable, yes
<sabdfl> ok ogra I think that's an answer for your question
<ogra> yup...
<mdz> sladen: are you applying for member status or maintainer/uploader status?
<ogra> the prob is that we currently are only two MOTUs ..... 
<ogra> ahh, kdz was faster again :)
<ogra> mdz
<sabdfl> sladen: or MOTU status :-)
<sladen> mdz: I think member, (immediately followed by committer/maintainer) ?
<mdz> ogra: that will provide incentive for you to recruit new MOTU ;-)
<ogra> yay !
<mdz> members need a CC vote according to the wiki process
<sabdfl> i think we have cc present
<sabdfl> mako? elmo? kamion?
<elmo> sorry what are we voting on?  universe only, or everything?
<mdz> we have 3/4
<sladen> I think I'm going to need sysvinit, mkinitrd-tools, initrd-tools, grub(?), $xorg_resolution_detect, gdm, usplash-*, in the next couple of weeks (all of which are in main)
<sabdfl> for sladen, membership
<sabdfl> tb will do upload
<elmo> uh
<sivang> people who get approved by CC are eligable for voting afterwards in CC meetings?
<sabdfl> sivang: vote to confirm CC appointments
<ogra> sabdfl: we are in TB...so you could do both ;)
<sivang> sabdfl: ok.
<mdz> ogra: we will
<sabdfl> yes
<elmo> I wish these damn procedures would stabilize, they seem to change everytime I blink
<sabdfl> elmo, kamion?
<sivang> elmo: I get that feeling also ;-)
<sabdfl> membership for sladen. recognises a "significant and ongoing contribution"
<mdz> A person who wants to become a member should:
<mdz>       Be contributing. Very wide definition of contributing: Coding, writing, art-work, etc. Everybody can be pa rt of the community. Contributions should be significant.
<mdz>       Have good testimonials / recommendations from others in the community.
<mdz>       Have a wiki-page with stuff he is working in / has worked on.
<mdz>       Community Council votes whether a person can become a member.
<haggai> elmo: stop blinking so slowly then :)
<Kamion> sorry, just a sec
<sabdfl> thpecial
<mdz> I can speak for sladen's contributions to date being significant
<elmo> sabdfl: does that mean CC no longer have any say on whether a person can upload to main?
<sabdfl> elmo: yes
<sabdfl> cc is membership, which votes on cc appointments and procedural amendments etc
<sabdfl> tb is upload, and votes on tb appointments
<Kamion> I'm fine with membership for sladen on the basis of ongoing usplash work and other contributions
<mdz> wiki page is present and linked from the agenda
<sabdfl> possibly also votes on technical items
<sabdfl> elmo?
<elmo> *shrug* fine
<ogra> ahh, which answers my question from the beginning...
<sabdfl> sladen gets my vote too, welcome aboard
<sivang> do we have a list of the wiki of CC members already
<sivang> ?
<mdz> sladen: congratulations
* sladen gives nods of Thanks all round
<sivang> s/of/on
<sabdfl> sivang: no, we should have, could you create that please?
<ogra> yay, hi sladenMOTU
<sivang> sladen: congerts.
<sabdfl> we have a spec which the launchpad team will implement
<sabdfl> that will publish the membership list on launchpad.ubuntu.com
<sabdfl> Ubuntites unite!
<mdz> sivang: CC members, or Ubuntu members?
<mdz> CC members are on the website
<sivang> mdz: link?
<mdz> sivang: http://www.ubuntulinux.org/community/council
<mdz> but I think you're talking about Ubuntu members
<mdz> since there is no list that I know of
<sabdfl> ok, i think we are done with the agenda
<mdz> and there definitely should be!
<sabdfl> any other business?
<mdz> sabdfl: not quite
<sivang> yes,
<sladen> sladen upload?
<mdz> sladen applied for upload privileges
<sabdfl> true
<ogra> sladen: go 
<sivang> I was adviced by mako and jdub and now pitti, to request a package for hebrew fonts to get in main,
<sivang> namel culmus.
<sivang> *namely
<mdz> I have authenticated sladen's gpg key myself, if I'm not mistaken, so I'm satisfied with that requirement
* sladen wonders if he should /part #ubuntu-meeting
<ogra> culmus was also requested in ubuntu-devel ML
<mdz> we don't have a lot of guidelines for upload status at this point
<sabdfl> mdz, keybuk, upload for sladen to universe plus sysvinit, mkinitrd-tools, initrd-tools, grub(?), $xorg_resolution_detect, gdm, usplash-*
<Keybuk> I don't have any problem with sladen
<mdz> or simply unlimited?
<elmo> guys, this "per package" thing is completely out of left-field
<Keybuk> (in general)
<mdz> I think having a huge list of packages is a bit silly
<elmo> no one told me about it --> katie has no support for it
<sabdfl> elmo: don't worry, we'll manage it socially for the moment
<sivang> mdz: if I Was approved by the CC , am I on the CC , or and Ubuntu member? :)
<sabdfl> soyuz will automate it
<mdz> if we trust someone to upload an essential package, we trust them to upload anything
<mdz> sivang: you are an Ubuntu member
<mdz> sivang: sabdfl appoints new CC members
<sabdfl> nominates
<sivang> mdz: ah ok :) now that made clea some stuff :)
<elmo> sabdfl: I'd really rather we didn't
<sabdfl> sivang votes to confirm :-)
<mdz> sabdfl: website says appoints
<sivang> sabdfl: hehe , cool.
<sabdfl> ok, i should change it
<sabdfl> can't appoint till its confirmed :-)
<sabdfl> we need a *picture* not another document
<mdz> ok, so the matter at hand
<mdz> as I said, there aren't any guidelines in place for us regarding confirmation of upload status
<sivang> sabdfl: nominates sounds more prestigues...;-)
<sabdfl> is just awaiting keybuk's vote
<ogra> cant sladen just agree he limits his uploads to the named packages and we all belive him ?
<sabdfl> yes
<mdz> but in my opinion, it's a matter of trusting the person not to exceed their limits
<Keybuk> sabdfl: sorry, which?  (having slight connectivity problems and getting things in bursts)
<sabdfl> mdz: in future we will automate this, for now, it's just social
<sabdfl> sladen, upload to universe plus a bunch of break-my-ubuntu packages ;-)
<Keybuk> <Keybuk> I don't have any problem with sladen
<Keybuk> :p
<mdz> I don't think it's sensible to saddle sladen with a list of packages in main that he is allowed to upload
<mdz> because it means revisiting the issue when that list changes with his work
<mdz> Keybuk: unrestricted main?
<Keybuk> mdz: I don't have a problem with main in general
<mdz> based on his participation so far, my feeling is that he won't do anything silly in main
<sladen> granted.  It would be inconvient---there maybe some others than come into play.  I'm happy to ping socially before doing so
<sabdfl> great
<ogra> mdz: else we wll find out where he lives :p
<Keybuk> ogra: oh, it's easy to find sladen ... just say the words "free bar", and he mysteriously turns up <g>
<ogra> lol
<mdz> and on that basis I have no problem with him uploading packages in main
<sladen> ogra: other side of town from sabdfl.  I'm sure it'll pop on the Victoria Line and bring the Heavies if needed
<sladen> he'll
<ogra> *g*
<mdz> sabdfl: you voted?
<sabdfl> yes, +1 to sladen, unlimited
<ogra> <sabdfl> is just awaiting keybuk's vote
<mdz> ok, sounds like we're done
<sabdfl> sladen, congrats and thanks
<ogra> err, one last question....
<sivang> anybody saw my fonts package question? ;)
<ogra> what turned out with the MOTU Master ?
<ogra> do we have one ?
<mdz> sivang: on the agenda?
<mdz> ogra: that's a CC matter
<ogra> ok
<sivang> mdz: hrm no, I was away for quite some time and pitti noted this to me only when the meeting was one hour in.
<mdz> ogra: and I thought it was decided at the CC meeting
<sabdfl> thans everybody
<ogra> mdz: i thought there was no answer from either haggai or ChrisH
<mdz> sivang: we have been here two hours; add it to the agenda for the next meeting
<sivang> mdz: sure, no prob, and I apologize.
<mdz> ogra: I think they were appointed, pending their approval of themselves ;-)
<mdz> thanks, everyone
<ChrisH> ogra: No public answer at least. :)
<mdz> adjourned
<sabdfl> i will get the current version of our membership / upload / commit permissions up on a wiki today
<haggai> mdz: I wrote to mako & sabdfl last week
<ogra> yup...ChrisH, but since i'm a MOTU now i'd like to know it
<sivang> sabdfl: does somebody has a list of already ubuntu members?
<ChrisH> ogra: haggai agreed to do it. I don't have the time currently. Already talked with him about it.
<mdz> sivang: it could at least be found in the CC transcripts
<ogra> a, k
<sabdfl> sivang: put up the wiki page with your best recollection, then well ask members to correct it
<sladen> sabdfl: would it be add a repositary of ''signed CoC's'' I think it would be a useful (and public) "role call" to have
<sivang> sabdfl: ok, sure.
<sabdfl> sladen: yes, elmo has them
<elmo> no I don't
<sabdfl> ?
<sladen> make does
<sabdfl> mako?
<elmo> that was another random change - they all got sent to mako instead
<sivang> lol
<ogra> regarding the CoC, there should be a text file for download to easily sign it
<sabdfl> elmo: sorry, my mistake, you should be getting them
<sabdfl> ogra: could you produce that?
<ogra> yup
<sabdfl> put a version on it, because we will need to rev it over time
<ogra> (since i already have one i signed)
<ogra> hmm, who is allowed to change that website ?
<Treenaks> ogra: oh you fixed it?
<Treenaks> ogra: I just signed a w3m -dump :)
<mdz> sladen: yes, that was the plan, to post them publicly
<ogra> Treenaks: i made a ps and used ps2txt ;)
<Treenaks> ogra: hmmm.. :)
<ogra> Treenaks: so you will _finally_ join MOTU....thats great news :)
<sivang> ogra: are you the new MOTU leader?
<Treenaks> MOTU?
<ogra> sivang: it appears that haggai is :)
<sladen> Masters Of The Universe
<Treenaks> oh wait yes
<mako> sabdfl: i'm here
#ubuntu-meeting 2006-01-23
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:robitaille] : Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 19 Jan 14:00 UTC: Dapper Development Status | 24 Jan 21:00 UTC:  Community Council | 27 Jan 22:00 UTC: Documentation Team Meeting
<jelkner> kjcole: morning kevin, please give me a ring...
<kjcole> jelkner, i called. got voice mail.
<jelkner> what is your number?
<kjcole> 202-234-0213
<kjcole> showtime?
<kjcole> janew, ping?
<kjcole> jelkner, you're  gone...
<JaneW> ack!!!
<JaneW> hello
<JaneW> meeting totally slipped my mind!
<JaneW> where has the week gone?
<JaneW> and where is my reminder?
<flint> ...coffee...must get coffee...
<kjcole> hiya
<JaneW> who is here
<JaneW> hi flint
<flint> good morning campers! hi jane and kevin!
* JaneW 's kids started Grade 1 today - threw me for a loop 
<JaneW> kjcole & jelkner as promised we can start with doc news today
<flint> Congradulationis Jane how many in grade 1? 2?
<JaneW> s/s
<JaneW> make that ONE KID
* JaneW goes back to grade one to learn maths ;)
<kjcole> JaneW, I just got off the phone with Jeff.  He usually has to cut out early from these meetings and because we're starting late, he's left it in my clumsy hands.  Oops. I dropped it.
<flint> I will rat them out.  they have been hauling compuers all weekend and have made no progress. :^)
<JaneW> kjcole: so you want to shoot, or defer?
<JaneW> is ogra here?
<kjcole> Defer.
<ogra> JanC, yup
<JaneW> kjcole: :P
<JaneW> hi ogra
<JaneW> ok the doc team aren't talking, so you are up
<ogra> still fighting with the flight 3 announcement 
<flint> damn...they actually have made a whole lot of progress!
<JaneW> cool
<ogra> we have flight 3
<JaneW> is flight 3 done?
<kjcole> (Long and short of it is we didn't meet last weekend for books, as we were meeting to gather and redistribute lots of computers.)
<JaneW> do you need help with the announcement?
<JaneW> I can help
<ogra> yes, since two days, i'm really late with the announcement 
<JaneW> kjcole: ok thanks, you still on track though?
<JaneW> ogra: what needs to be done?
<ogra> (you know we have UVF tomorrow ;) )
<kjcole> janew, I believe so.
<JaneW> ogra: congrats on meeting another milestone :))
<ogra> :)
<JaneW> ogra: yes so it would be good to get the announcement out today still
<flint> ollie, i read about the flights etc... is this more than just another build or what?
<ogra> JaneW, yup... lets do it after the meeting
<JaneW> btw Thin Client Local devices is now officially deferred for Dapper
<ogra> flint, yes
<JaneW> ogra: ok
<ogra> flight CDs are tested for basic installability 
<flint> gotcha, I should download and test at f3?
<ogra> drawbacks and known bugs in flight Cds are noted in the install notes
<ogra> so you shouldnt get bad surprises if you try them
<ogra> ok
<jelkner> ogra: how does the flight concept align with alpha and beta?
<flint> definately congradulations are in order ollie
<ogra> i have mostly done ubuntu work to prepare for UVF this week apart form the flight CDs 
<jelkner> great work, olllie!
<ogra> so i have not much to tell this week
<ogra> local devices are officially deferred, but i'm just working on the latest ltspfs and ltspfsd packages, so we have the base for it in universe
<jelkner> great
<ogra> it should be no problem to follow the ltsp.org docs to set local device support up in a classic way with the packages from universe+
<flint> ollie, I know that this is a pain, but can you paste in the url for the f3 iso?
<ogra> http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/edubuntu/releases/dapper/
<flint> thanks
<ogra> this flight Cd has sound support ... :)
<ogra> (for thin clients that is)
<flint> I intend to give this a try...
<ogra> i'm currently discussing the advantage of switching from bash to a smaller shell with mdz 
<ogra> that might get us near the 32MB ...
<ogra> (for clients)
<flint> cutting ram usage in half?
<ogra> nah
<ogra> we are at 48MB 
<ogra> and it gets hard to get lower now ...
<JaneW> hi jelkner 
<ogra> the kernel and initramfs already take more than 32MB 
<jelkner> JaneW: hi jane!
<flint> how much ram would be saved?
<JaneW> jelkner: flights are pre alpha and beta, we'll actually have a beta-proper before this release
<ogra> i have a initramfs patch pending that supresses all harrdisk mosules that might get us less than 32MB for kernel and intramfs ...
<ogra> for the shell change i cant predict any values yet
<JaneW> jelkner: which is a first for us
<flint> good morning jeff!  you and kevin should talk about docs and the secondary processor market...
<ogra> my main concern with the shell stuff was speed, using less ram is a sideeffect
* Yagisan is sorry he is late
<Kamion> jelkner: I'd say flight =~ alpha
<JaneW> the idea is that the flights (or collective noun for release creature) are milestones withint the dev cycle to weed out issues and check-point progress
<ogra> in other news i now own 5 thin clients 
<ogra> so testing ius easier ....
<JaneW> like a dev->test->dev->test cycle
<flint> interesting, something like say "ash" woudl improve speed over say "icewm"?
<Kamion> JaneW: yeah, alpha's a reasonably conventional term to use to describe the milestone points in such a process
<ogra> jelkner, yes, beta is the release candidate (which we actually call beta release this time iirc)
<Kamion> no, we'll be calling the preview release "beta"
<Yagisan> ogra: can we have our own -OS compiled kernels to save space ?
<Kamion> release candidate is release candidate :)
<ogra> ah, yes
<ogra> i didnt scroll down :)
<ogra> Yagisan, nope
<ogra> Yagisan, not officially
<Yagisan> ogra: well, it was a nice idea while it lasted
<flint> elkner, there is actually an entire explanation of this flight for dapper thing on an ubuntu web site, let me see if i can find it.
<ogra> but the initramfs patch that i initially had to do because powerpc couldnt boot will slim down a lot
<JaneW> Kamion: thanks
<JaneW> jelkner: what Kamion said!
<ogra> Yagisan, you wont gain mauch with a customized kernel ...
<ogra> Yagisan, the big piece here is the collection of modules ...
<ogra> so initramfs has an option to suporess unneeded ones ...
<jelkner> Kamion, yes, thanks!
<Yagisan> ogra: I was just interested in if the optimise for size option would help
<ogra> Yagisan, it might ... but we wont get separate kernels and you wont gain as much with a smaller kernel as you can with a slimmed down initramfs 
<jelkner> JaneW: same time next week?
<jelkner> i've gotta run...
<JaneW> jelkner: yes please
<jelkner> thanks
<JaneW> jelkner: and cookbook update then please
<JaneW> if you can
<JaneW> ciao
<jelkner> yes, and we will have stuff to report
<jelkner> can we put that on the agenda for the start of the meeting?
<ogra> oh, i'm at a conference this weekend ... its from a project thats sopnsored by the european union ... 
<jelkner> ciao
<ogra> they want to build their school and usermanagement software on top of knoppix and ubuntu it seems (klaus knopper is there as well)
<ogra> #seems its fulls paied by the EU
<ogra> and has a good backing ...
<flint> cool...I am ready to immagrate back to the mother country...I want a sane government!
<ogra> heh
<flint> shake klaus' hand for me ollie
<ogra> it was initially gpl, then made proprietary, and became gpl again now ...
<ogra> will do
<ogra> originally developed on and for SuSE 
<flint> btw the site for the flight narrative is http://www.ubuntulinux.org/support/faq search for word flight.
<ogra> but the EU and the people driving this project are *very* intereasted having it run on debian based systems ...
<ogra> (mainly edubuntu and knoppix)
<flint> where would this be?
<ogra> it installs workstations from isos on the fly (even from windows isos)
<ogra> looks very intresting 
<flint> where geographically is the conference?  near you?
<ogra> thats about 100km southern of my place, near the belkgian border
<ogra> trier is near
<JaneW> ogra: sounds good
<flint> Trier?  never been there...
<ogra> JaneW, yes, mark was very intrested that i go there 
<flint> are they in the middle of the moodle schooltool thing yet
<ogra> nope they are way bigger
<flint> what is the name of what they want for a management software thing?
<ogra> its a management system for whole schools and universities 
<ogra> including user as well as system and software management
<ogra> platform independent for the client architecture
<ogra> i have no clue ... had no time yet to look at it ...
<ogra> we are near UVF and i shouldnt ever chat here to get the last packages in ;)
<kjcole> ogra,  sounds like  an  ambitious system.
<flint> ogra, this is beginning to sound too good to be true.  be tolerant Ollie.
<ogra> yes, i'll look up the urls for you and send it to the ML
<flint> thanks.  Now that I think about it Bush vs Eurocrats...tough call eh Jane?
<ogra> pfft bush ...
<flint> exactly!!!!
<ogra> how long has he left in this period ? 
<ogra> he'll be gone soon ...
<flint> please, he can do a lot more damage
<ogra> true ...
<kjcole> ogra, say that and  we'll bring "freedom and democracy" to your country too! so be afraid.  ;-)
<ogra> lol
<flint> excellent kevin
<flint> lol indeed
<ogra> hey, we have "neckless angie" .... she'll manage :P
* Yagisan mumbles somthing about importing that crap^Wstuff down here
<flint> ok we got the flight 3 in our sights. 
<JaneW> ogra: don't talk about jbailey's wife like that! :P
<flint> ouch that is funny about your new pm!
<ogra> JaneW, *she* has a neck :)
<JaneW> does anyone want to volunteer as minutes atker for these meetings?
<JaneW> I don;t mind the job, but I never seem to manage to get it done anymore
<ogra> flint, flight 3 is old news already :)
<JaneW> and the Ubuntu Dapper Report takes a big chunk of my time currently
<flint> i know that, jeff did not.
<ogra> flint, yes, because i suck at timely announcements ;)
<flint> JaneW, what is involved?  
<ogra> flint, see the MeetingNotes page on the wiki 
<ogra> flint, https://wiki.edubuntu.org/EdubuntuMeetingRecords
<flint> i did not even know there was a meeting notes page!
<flint> ogra, thanks
<JaneW> flint: liar!
<JaneW> flint: sorry I mean Alzheimers!
* JaneW hides
<flint> do not worry I will likely forget that remark :^)
<ogra> lol
<ogra> oh, i need artwork still !!
<ogra> nearly forgot about that 
<JaneW> flint: but yes basically taking salient meeting notes/decisions and adding them to: https://wiki.edubuntu.org/EdubuntuMeetingRecords
<JaneW> oh yes
* Seveas hands ogra the paint
<ogra> the artwork packages currently lets you select the age, but has 3 times the same design :)
<JaneW> ogra: list what you need, I'll nag silbs again
<JaneW> wallpaper, splash, and  gdm theme?
<JaneW> ogra: you got icon sets?
<ogra> we can keep the young design i think (another wallpaper might be fine) so what i need is mid age and older age 
<ogra> i wanted to take the default icon theme for the two older flavours
<flint> as a consultant and the authorized representative of beazulbub, prince of falsehood, let me look into the notes thing... 
<ogra> so we'd only need wallpaper and splash screen artwork
<ogra> did somebody tell elkner that we are using malone exclusively now ? 
<kjcole> ogra, nope but it's pretty obvious when one goes to bugzilla...
<ogra> oh, damned, i also wanted him to take a look at pida #
<kjcole> ogra, pida?
<ogra> its a cool python IDE i could imagine for main inclusion
<ogra> eh, and i did forget, gobby is in !! ( JaneW ") 
<flint> pida yaide neat! is it in universe?
<ogra> yup+
<JaneW> ogra: oh yay, I noticed your discussion with pitti in the dapper meeting last week
<ogra> but it looks like its easy to get to main ... 
<JaneW> it looked promising
<kjcole> ogra, ah.  I know he's talked to Stani of SPE fame, and Stani's modified SPE to  be more Ubuntu-friendly
<flint> the only down side of gobby is that it sorta needs a server for school-to-school
<ogra> spe is totally broken
<ogra> and UVF is tomorrow
<JaneW> ogra: did you look at Quim's reckommeded app Dasher?
<ogra> i doubt that will be fixed in time
<JaneW> spe?
<ogra> its an editior
<JaneW> ogra: what are our issues for UVF?
<JaneW> ogra: are we asking for any exceptions this time?
<ogra> JaneW, yes, dasher is a input tool for handhelds that was adopted by the a11y people
<ogra> JaneW, nope
<kjcole> JaneW, SPE = Stani's Python  Editor which includes a lot of wxpython capability and i gather shows a lot of promise...
<JaneW> ogra: does it makes sense for us to look at it for uni and/or Dapper +1?
<ogra> ltsp development can go on until feature freeze, we dont need exceptions
<JaneW> yay
<JaneW> ogar: I am PROUD OF YOU
<ogra> kjcole, we wont accept awxpython in main i think
<JaneW> and anyone who may have helped you.
<ogra> kjcole, so SPE is not an option
<flint> I thought that pycard was wx.
<flint> na, it is gtk
<ogra> pida is also for pygtk and has a direct glade interface for gazpacho ...
<kjcole> Naturally, when learning GUI stuff for Python, I went with wx... :-(
<ogra> its like idle on steroids with fresh design
<ogra> and it supports embedding of different editors in the IDE ... you are not bound to the shipped one but can select emacs or vim ... 
<flint> never fooled with gazpacho mostly playing with Scite
<ogra> that brings me an idea ...
<ogra> i'll ask upstream if he likes to include gobby support ;)
<kjcole> ogra, now  there's a wild and crazy idea.  I *LIKE* it!
<flint> ogra, ollie, what we need in gobby space is a server that can take gobby sessions and connect htem...
<flint> one really cool hack would be to connect them to xchat...
<ogra> flint, the current version supports that 
<kjcole> flint, like a gobby daemon that doesn't have to be started by any individual, but just sits and listens...
<ogra> and gobby brings a chat itself ... 
<flint> supports a connection via xchat?  your kidding...
<ogra> nope, a dedicated server
<flint> kjcole, exactly  it is a gobby catcher, the users gobbys are the pitchers...
<kjcole> flint, i'm going to dist-upgrade docbox  if that's the case. ;-)
<flint> ogra, a dedicated server?  indeed.  kjcole use the development box and have at it.
<ogra> i dont know how to set it up, i only know its included 
<ogra> sobby is the name iirc
<flint> ogra, kjcole and I had a time with gobby, i ended up xsessioning into his box to use it.  most slow.
<flint> ogra, sobby eh?  I will look into it.
<ogra> but that was 0.2.0 
<ogra> we have 0.3.0 now
<ogra> should have improved a lot
<flint> they call it an obby server why leave off the "g"?
<flint> anyway, i am gonna get some coffee.  I will be on but upstairs with a cup in my hand for a few minutes...
<ogra> hmm, btw, why wasnt the edubuntu meeting on the fridge ? 
<ogra> my evolution pulls the webcal from there and notifies me ...
<ogra> JaneW, ??
<kjcole> i gotta  run to work,
* sivang amazes at the amount of new apps he gets to see here
* kjcole  gets his coat...
<JaneW> ogra: yes I got no reminder either
<sivang> ogra: pida is in python I guess?
* JaneW will send a mail to the fridge techies
<ogra> sivang, yup
<ogra> sivang, pygtk
<sivang> very cool
<ogra> and finally a IDE that embeds vim 
<sivang> were you talking about which editors to include for python in Edubuntu ?
<kjcole> ogra,  any idea  how to get  korganizer  to pull the calendar automatically?  I end up downloading  it an importing it, but would like a  better way.
* sivang apologies, been busy at work didn't have time to follow the discussions too much.
<ogra> kjcole, nope, no idea, in evo you just add the webcal url and it updates automatically
<ogra> but i dont touch KDE stuff if i dont need to
<ogra> sivang, its likely to late to include it for dapper, but i want the people to test heavily since we will change the software selection  in dapper+1
<kjcole> ogra that may be enough  info  to go on. thanks.  (I figured something  like that, but wanted to be sure it wasn't too obscure in  evolution.)
<sivang> ogra: specifically for python editors, or change the whole software selection for Edubuntu ?
<kjcole> and   i'm outa here.   bye!
<ogra> in evo you just add a new calendar and tell it to pull the webcal address ... 
<sivang> bye kjcole 
<ogra> sohould be similar in KDE
<ogra> sivang, we'll see
<ogra> first point i want people to be aware of all the stuff thats there and make suggestions on the ML for a new selectin
<ogra> after thats done we'll see how much demand is there
<ogra> dapper+1 is still some months away
<sivang> yes, true
<JaneW> 3 months to be exact
<ogra> JaneW, mhz is nagging about a new summit ...
<flint> ogra, summits can be fun.
* JaneW read that as 'swimsuit'
<JaneW> mdz: I think we may be able to schedule one after Dapper releases
<JaneW> likely not before
<flint> JaneW, an excellent thought
<JaneW> sabdfl will want to see how we do on this release forst and if we keep the momentum going
<flint> well, we have done what we can to keep him entertained, that is for certian.
<flint> the good news from here is that my test capability is about to start and will with f3.
<flint> and for all the posturing about the cookbook, the boys are actually making good progress on docbox
<flint> one idea that has survived in my altzheimers inflicted brain is that of matching the style of the cookbook with the graphic style of the product.  do you recall that one janeW?
<JaneW> flint: yup
<JaneW> flint: meaning gartoon theme etc?
<flint> well, that said I thought I saw you refering to different graphics for different levels in this meeting. eh?
<flint> whatever is in f3 is what i will agitate the cookbook mafia to go with.
<flint> what is a gartoon theme? (I'm a doctor jim, not a graphic artist :^)
<flint> JaneW, ok I got it it is a gnome theme...
<JaneW> flint: after ppl saying edubuntu was too naive looking and aimed at only 6-10 y/o kids we agreed to do
<JaneW> 1) Young as per current but with different wall paper
<JaneW> 2) Older appealing to 10-15 y/o
<flint> yea, that's it.  that's the ticket.  will this be the same at all levels of system use?
<JaneW> 3) Generic plain and simple look, less distracting and resource intensive and possibly for tertiary edu use
<flint> JaneW, the question then is can that three level demarcation be continued in the cookbook?
<JaneW> how?
<JaneW> the cook book is not specific to any of the choices
<JaneW> but we should perhaps depict the selections in the cook book
<flint> JaneW, like the intro and fundamental stuff is in graphic 1 style and so on...
<JaneW> nah I think select one and be consistent
<flint> JaneW, kidnap note typography forever!
* JaneW has to go, we have just over an hour, and an announcement to get out...
<JaneW> ogra: ping ^^^
<flint> JaneW, i will get back to you via mail about notes... later this week.
<JaneW> flint: awesome thanks
<flint> ogra, you asleep?
<flint> the gauledette community of deaf folks sign off with "stop key stop key" or sksk, I would like to adopt this convention here.
<flint> later, sksk
<ogra> nope, my line is shaky
<JaneW> ogra: * JaneW has to go, we have just over an hour, and an announcement to get out...
<JaneW> JaneW ogra: ping ^^^
<ogra> JaneW, a minute please, my line is dropping all the time ...
<ogra> JaneW, better now 
<JaneW> ogra: ok
<Yagisan> \sh: I see you also replied to debsecan
<Yagisan> bah - wrong window
#ubuntu-meeting 2006-01-24
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:robitaille] :  Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 19 Jan 14:00 UTC: Dapper Development Status | 24 Jan 21:00 UTC:  Community Council | 25 Jan 12:00 UTC:  Edubuntu | 27 Jan 22:00 UTC: Documentation Team Meeting
<mdz> JaneW: would you start checking that everyone is present (excepting Keybuk)?
<JaneW> sure
<JaneW> ping: BenC, daniels, dholbach, doko  
<dholbach> pong
<JaneW> ping: fabbione, infinity, iwj, jbailey
<doko> JaneW: pong
<daniels> JaneW: pong
* mvo is here
<JaneW> pink: kamion, Mithrandir, mjg59, mvo  
<pitti> hi
<JaneW> hi mvo
<pitti> JaneW: pink?
<ogra_> yellow
<JaneW> grin
<JaneW> seb128? Riddell? 
<Riddell> hi all
<JaneW> hi BenC
<BenC> hello
<JaneW> hi seb128 
<seb128> hey JaneW
<JaneW> ok who is missing?
<seb128> sorry if I'm late, my computer clock says :58
<JaneW> Mithrandir: ?
<pitti> seb128: mine too :)
<JaneW> seb128: no we have 2 minutes to get everyone here, so we can start on the hour
<seb128> alright ;)
<Kamion> here
<JaneW> just Mithrandir , Riddell and mjg59 missing still by my reckoning
<Kamion> 13:57 < Riddell> hi all
<JaneW> oh sorry, there he is
<JaneW> hi Riddel
<Riddell> hi JaneW :)
<mdz> good morning all
<mdz> everyone accounted for?
<JaneW> Mithrandir...
<BenC> Mith was awake a short while ago
<JaneW> and mgj59 still MIA
<JaneW> shall we start in the mean time?
<BenC> well, 5 hours ago I guess
<mdz> yeah, it's Mithrandir's core hours, so he's surely around. maybe stepped out
<mdz> yes, let's get started
<mdz> let's go in reverse order for variety
<dholbach> haha :)
<mdz> Riddell first
<mdz> Riddell: ?
<Riddell> mdz: still finishing my notes.. 1 minute
<JaneW> tsk
<mdz> ok, we'll come back to you.  in case it wasn't evident, you need to prepare in advance
<mdz> is sivang around?
<mdz> ok, seb128
<seb128> GNOME: load of updates for GNOME 2.13.5 (sync with Debian before upload for a bunch, ubuntu patches update for new code), deal with new bugs and patched for some issues, load of bug triage
<seb128> dapper-desktop-plan: some discussion on ubuntu-desktop about the session dialog, upstream changed the way they handle that ... what would be the right place to discuss what strategy we wants to take? Out of that no change, I just keep up with GNOME updates/bug load working full time (and doing extras hours too) on that. gdm changes are probably not trivial and I don't know the code, maybe we could try to bounty that (I'm not opposed working 
<seb128> on that but there is a new GNOME every 2 weeks from npw)?
<seb128> next week: dapper desktop plan and bug catchup
<mdz> seb128: if there isn't a consensus among the desktop team, feel free to copy me on the session dialog stuff
<mdz> seb128: any update on the menus-revised feedback?
<seb128> mdz: there is some consensus but that doesn't match what Mark asked for
<Mithrandir> pong
<mdz> seb128: ok, then copy me and mark both
<seb128> mdz: I've reactivated the window-properties capplet as discussed
<seb128> and totem
<seb128> out of that no real complain
<seb128> we should be good
<mdz> ok, so the stuff mjg59 posted was resolved?
<seb128> correct
<seb128> that's the window-properties capplet
<infinity> mdz: Can I go next, so I can turn my eyes back to the buildds exploding?
<seb128> we had a consensus on ubuntu-desktop to reactivate it
<mdz> ok, cool
<infinity> last week: No spec progress, lots of UVF preparation and last-minute merges, including PHP, MySQL, Subversion, and Thunderbird, to name some prominent ones.  Fixed glibc biarch issues last week as well, did some initramfs hacking, and some livefs hacking.
<infinity> next week: Fix the current X mess in the next hour or two, then vacation and apache mini-sprint.
<mdz> infinity: the idea is that everyone is here for the full meeting, otherwise we'd just email in updates
<infinity> oh, and if I can squeeze it in before my flight, I'll upload a firefox that builds on amd64.
<infinity> mdz: Oh, I thought that "ok, cool" was directed at me.
<mdz> not for the sake of twiddling thumbs, but knowing what your teammates are doing and whether you have any role in it
<doko> infinity: hurray firefox!
<infinity> mdz: Indeed, I agree.  I would have just "phoned it in" anyway, except that I'm still around specifically because of the buildd/archive mess. :)
<mdz> infinity: splash-down?
<iwj> infinity: Do you know what's wrong with the amd64 ff ?
<mdz> infinity: I only just woke up, what's the mess? (via PM please)
<infinity> mdz: splash-down is a "at or immediately after the sprint" goal.
<iwj> That was no.2 on my list today after the version number fuckup.
<iwj> I was hoping the failure was the make syntax problem but it turns out not to be.
<seb128> iwj: when you are going to break everything gecko related with a firefox upload that would be nice to ping me before so we are ready to fix GNOME, thank you :)
<mdz> infinity: what's delaying it until then?  the earlier we get the boot/shutdown process sorted for dapper, then better
<iwj> seb128: Um, I didn't know I was going to break everything.  Sorry :-/.
<infinity> iwj: It looks like a fakeroot bug to me (which I mean to dig into later), but the quick fix should just be to pass -X'*libssl3*' to dh_shlibdeps.
<infinity> mdz: What's delaying it before then is that I'm not around.
<iwj> infinity: OK, thanks for the hint, I'll deal with it.
<seb128> iwj: so when you upload firefox it would be nice you try starting epiphany or devhelp or yelp :)
<iwj> seb128: OK, I can do that, NP.
<mdz> infinity: oh, you're off next week
<infinity> mdz: Right.
<seb128> iwj: you changed some path mozilla-firefox to firefox, but no big deal a rebuild do the trick :)
<infinity> mdz: Well, off, then apache stuff.
<mdz> ok, thanks
<infinity> mdz: If the apache stuff doesn't take all the time allotted, I'm sure I'll hit up other stuff to hack on too.
<mdz> fabio is on leave
<iwj> seb128: Right.  Um, I meant to leave a symlink behind IIRC.  But I will test next time.
<mdz> JaneW: did he send anything he wanted passed on to the meeting?
<seb128> iwj: thank you
<pitti> (wouldn't ogra be next?)
<JaneW> no I didn;t hear from him
<mdz> pitti: yes, but since i was looking at infinity...
<iwj> Sorry for fucking it up.  And really sorry for not thinking beyond `that's a slightly odd version number' to `that's probably wrong, actually'.
<mdz> pitti: well, no, you'd be next actually ;-)
<pitti> oh, heh
<pitti> last week: security updates, lots of main inclusion reviews, packaged some new upstream versions, lots of CD testing, much cupsys love, sanitized sudo, added sudo hint for beginnersno progress on specs (ENOTIME), the remaining specs require a fair amount of intrusive work that will probably not happen any more for dapper; I rather want to concentrate on shaking out long-standing bugs now instead of adding new ones, if that is fine for mdz?
<pitti> plan next week: give cups and printing some more love, some more audio bug fixing (sound card selector and .asoundrc handling are still in a bad state, I forgot about that, so I want to fix it before feature freeze), some more pending security updates
<pitti> oh, sorry for the missing line break
<daniels> 
<mdz> pitti: remaining specs = automatic-printer-conf and langpacks-desktop-files?
<pitti> mdz: the former requires a fair amount of new code and work, and zyga wanted to look into langpack support for .server files
<pitti> it already works for .desktop for a while
<pitti> I'm sure we can get .directory support for dapper at least
<pitti> since it should be pretty easy
<pitti> but I refered to the printer stuff, yes
<mdz> ok, the printer stuff can slip
<Kamion> argh, sorry, somebody from my letting agent has just called at the door about a fence repair; if I'm not around, please excuse me and I'll catch up at the end
<pitti> I'd rather make cups less buggy than add hal-cups-utils and try to integrate it; it would probably require sb who knows more about gnome than me anyway
<mdz> if someone is still working on .server files, let's keep that on the roadmap for dapper
<pitti> yes, we shouldn't drop that one yet
<pitti> we have the spec 50% implemented already
<mdz> please track what is happening with it, or make sure that zyga communicates with janew or attends the meeting if he is working on it
<pitti> ok, I'll do
<mdz> thanks pitti
<mdz> ogra: next
<ogra> * thin-client-memory-usage: further work on nbd network swapping.
<ogra> * thin-client-faster-startup: played with dash (found some bashisms in ltsp)
<ogra> * gnome-screensaver-default-image: no progress, still need pictures .... mailed sabdfl...
<ogra> * general: flight3 testing, assembled a ltsp lab with 5 thin clients i got, merge work
<ogra> * next week: do a proper measuring of possible dash speedup, find a way for gdmsetup or gdm to change the theme from commandline for edubuntu-artwork, more ltsp work
<Riddell> ogra: what was the problem with KDE starting this morning?
<mdz> ogra: is nbd all that remains on -memory-usage?
<JaneW> ogra: what about the flight 3 announcement?
<ogra> mdz, nope, i'm waiting for a netboot patch to initramfs 
<ogra> mdz, and dash might be a big win, i need to get more numbers
<mdz> ogra: faster-startup is still drafting, with a comment from me in the spec
<ogra> mdz, yes, will fix that 
<ogra> Riddell, that was only a bug i have to inspect 
<ogra> JaneW, will send it after the meeting
<mdz> ogra: apart from sabdfl's photos, wasnt' the plan for default-image to ask for submissions from the community? has that happened?
<JaneW> ogra: ok thanks
<ogra> mdz, jdub wanted to care for that iirc with the other content stuff
<ogra> mdz, worst case i'll just put up a package with the default background and we could do something like calendar
<infinity> ogra: Tackle me at the sprint about all your initramfs needs.  I think half my time at the sprint will be hacking people's pet features into initramfs.
<ogra> or even leave it like that
<ogra> infinity, as i said, i'd be fine fixing my already existing patch :)
<mdz> ogra: you own that spec, not jdub, so make sure that it doesn't get stalled
<ogra> mdz, yes, thats why i described you the fallback 
<ogra> its doable in 10 min ...
<mdz> ogra: screen-saver?
<ogra> what about it ? gnome-screensaver is in, the lock dialog looks ok, or doesnt it to you ? 
<mdz> ogra: as of last week it was incomplete, and you didn't provide an update. is it finished or not?
<infinity> Of course, we still have two screensavers on every upgraded system.
<ogra> they rearranged the buttons like we have them in breezy, the rest of the design is pretty near to breezy, i'd call it implemented
<Kamion> back, sorry about that
<mdz> yes, one of the notes from last week was that the transition needs to be figured out
<ogra> infinity, not with ubuntu-desktop installed
<mdz> yes, with ubuntu-desktop installed
<pitti> oh, does u-desktop conflict to xss?
<mdz> you get both xscreensaver and gnome-screensaver
<Kamion> pitti: no
<Nafallo> ogra: yes. ubuntu-desktop doesn't remove things :-)
<ogra> ah yes
<pitti> would it hurt to have g-s-s conflict to x-s-s?
<ogra> but since i'm not allowed to conflict the screensavers, it looks like chicken egg ...
<Kamion> pitti: we've been over this in the breezy cycle
<dholbach> pitti: keybuk won't like that. :-)
<pitti> ok, /me shuts up
<mdz> ogra: the upgrade tool will need to deal with this, talk with mvo
<mvo> I could add it to the upgrade-tool (remove xss)
<mdz> mvo: :-)
* dholbach hugs mvo
<ogra> mvo, cool !
<mdz> ogra: thanks
<mdz> mvo: next
<mvo> Did:
<mvo> * dist-upgrade tool work:
<mvo>   - can do breezy->dapper upgrades now
<mvo>   - announced testversion on ubuntu-devel (to get some testing etc)
<mvo>   - obsolete packages detection should work more reliable now
<mvo>   - fixed some things in pyhton-apt along the way    
<mvo>   - fixed various bug 
<mvo>   [AutomaticUpgrades] 
<mvo> * HIGification of update-manager, software-properties, language-selector
<mvo> * gnome-app-install:
<mvo>   - threading supper for external uris 
<mvo>   - some work on improving the gnome-app-install ui 
<mvo>   [ThirdPartyPackages] 
<mvo> * various smaller stuff (apt, gksu, launchpad-integration, update-notifier, etc)
<mvo> Next week:
<mvo> - work on the ThirdPartyPackages spec and improving the g-a-i ui
<mvo> - getting startup notification working with gksu
* mvo wonders if he shouldn't make his report a bit more dense
<iwj> No, it's quite good like that.
<mdz> mvo: any feedback from ubuntu-devel on the upgrade tool?
<mvo> mdz: well, it currently breaks because of a transient problem with the new x :)
<mvo> I picked a bad timing
<mdz> ok
<infinity> Should all be sorted in another cron.daily or two.
<mdz> once that mess is sorted, maybe we should hit -devel-announce
<mvo> but got quite a few people testing it so far, so once that is fixed, I'll ask for re-testing
<mvo> mdz: sure, I can ask there too
<mdz> mvo: thanks
<mdz> JaneW: any update from mjg59?
<JaneW> nope
<JaneW> I pinged him, but have not had a response
<mdz> ok
<mdz> please keep trying
<ogra> mdz, for power management we're waiting for an upstream fix 
<mdz> ogra: blocking it, or as the only remaining piece?
<mdz> wasn't there a daemon to be written?
<ogra> mdz, blocking the upgrade to the last version of g-p-m
<ogra> thats mjg59's part 
<mdz> what about the daemon?
<mdz> ok
<ogra> i have no insight in this area 
<mdz> Mithrandir: next
<Mithrandir> openoffice-amd64: no progress	
<Mithrandir> live-cd-performance: no further progress
<Mithrandir> one-true-path: implemented	
<Mithrandir> simplified-livecd: a fair chunk of keyboard selection stuff done, but not finished.  I found out a tad late that ckb is written in perl, so I'll have to rewrite that in C.  I have a sneaky plan on how to do that without wasting a lot of effort.
<Mithrandir> livecd-unionfs: implemented, but has problems on powerpc.  BenC says it's fixed in -13
<Mithrandir> misc: a lot more time has been spent fighting with X keyboard maps than I'd had hoped.  I've been trying to keep *-desktop installable, which is an interesting challenge.
<Mithrandir> probe-for-root-filesystem: no progress
<Mithrandir> blocked on: access to popcon.ubuntu.com, people stop breaking -desktop installability.
<Mithrandir> next week: apache-mini-sprint, write lcxkb (linux console xkeyboard)
<Mithrandir> (no idea how those tabs got into the end of lines)
<BenC> _should be fixed_ in -13, I have to admit I haven't tested it
<Mithrandir> mea culpa about the wording there.
<mdz> Mithrandir: how much of live-cd-performance remains?
<BenC> was my fault, I said "it was fixed" :)
<BenC> Mithrandir: FYI, the fix was to disable debug, which should improve performance a lot
<Mithrandir> mdz: "depends".  As it says in the status, we can squeeze more out, but it'll be a dimishing returns thing to do.
<Mithrandir> BenC: yay
<Mithrandir> mdz: I'm going to play with -lzma a bit, and once scott's fixes for readahead hits the archive, I'll poke at those
<mdz> Mithrandir: ok, happy for us to stick to the low-hanging fruit for dapper, your call when to say it's enough
<Mithrandir> mdz: when that's done, I think I'll call it done for dapper.
<Mithrandir> we've already had _tremendous_ improvements.
<mdz> ok
<mdz> agreed
<mdz> thanks
<mdz> JaneW: lathiat, krstic, Keybuk?
<JaneW> nothing from lathiat or krstic
<JaneW> Keybuk: udev-roadmap: happy with the udev version, newer versions include
<JaneW> support for kernels 2.6.16 and post but we're not shipping those.
<JaneW> streamlined-boot: ifupdown and alsa mods done, ready for upload now
<JaneW> Flight 3 is out.
<JaneW> network-magic: still blocked on infinity for same reason's as last week
<JaneW> misc: mom converstion to malone done, no outstanding necessary merges
<BenC> wouldn't it be a good idea to include a udev that supports the possible next version of the kernel?
<infinity> mjg59's lending me a laptop with atheros while I'm in London, so I can get madwifi-ng tested and in the archive, FWIW.
<BenC> people have had lots of problems testing dapper kernels because the udev/hotplug upgrade didn't allow them to go back
<mdz> JaneW: is udev-roadmap completed or no?
<jbailey> BenC: udev is moving fast enough that we're not likely to get a udev that will actually support .17 or whatever we'll have for dapper+1
<JaneW> yes implemented
<jbailey> BenC: Also, half the problem was not being able to go back.
<jbailey> BenC: I think newer udevs are a bit more firnedly that way.
<BenC> hope so, but guess we wont know till we try it :)
<mdz> JaneW: we need to unblock network-magic; please ask Keybuk if we can just scanning for atheros chips for the sake of getting it in and testing it
<mdz> BenC: I suggest having a chat with Keybuk about what can be done there
<JaneW> mdz: ok
<mdz> we're way behind on time
<mdz> Riddell: next, before I forget (I have a shallow stack this early in the morning)
<Riddell> kubuntu-roadmap-dapper: sudo/iceauth fix done pending final testing, flight 3 testing
<Riddell> kubuntu-documentation: build fixes, releasenotes is caught up, writers starting on quickguide now
<Riddell> kubuntu-express: mostly done qtparted changes
<Riddell> todo: KDE 3.5.1 packages
<Riddell> blocking: kubuntu-system-tools need meeting with mdz, mornfall and me to sort bounty.  having an account to be able to update kubuntu.org would be really nice
<mdz> Riddell: which bits of kubuntu-roadmap-dapper remain?
<mdz> Riddell: account -> admin RT
<Riddell> rt has been sent
<Riddell> most of the deliverables of kubuntu-roadmap-dapper are in
<Riddell> it's just tidying up what's broken (e.g. cups)
<mdz> no remaining milestones then?
<mdz> for these multipart specs what we need is a feel for how far along they are
<JaneW> mdz: I have mailed keybuk
<mdz> JaneW: thanks
<Riddell> GStreamer 0.10 support would of course be nice, not sure how possible that is
<mdz> eek, we're behind on time
<mdz> Kamion: next
<Kamion> ubuntu-express: Lots of bug fixes to the point where I can actually do an installation and the result boots, although a few things are wrong. Will be ready to upload an initial version next week (manual partitioning only, and strictly for the brave).
<Kamion> ubuntu-express-copy-filesystem: Made espresso run casper-provided hooks, and gave Tollef a list of initial hooks to create.
<Kamion> ubuntu-express-bootloader: Ready to do espresso-grub now, but semi-blocked on https://launchpad.net/products/launchpad/+bug/2788; ddaa is working on merging my patch with high priority. If it doesn't get resolved today then I'll work around it.
<Kamion> cd-bootloader: Started working on a keymap menu. Found that I need to do some pretty scary processing on Linux keymap files to make this work, but I'm nearly done with that now. Should be straightforward to convert to X keymap handling if/when we're ready for that elsewhere.
<Kamion> misc: Flight CD 3. Some merge catch-up.
<Kamion> next-week: Final merges. Finish cd-bootloader keymap support and do localised help. Initial espresso upload for developer testing.
<mdz> Kamion: brave folks like ubuntu-devel?
<Kamion> mdz: right
<mdz> cool, looking forward to it
<mdz> UE is looking good; at what point will it be possible to get someone started on the UI wokr?
<Kamion> after the sprint, I should think
<mdz> ok
<Kamion> just after, I mean :)
<mdz> thanks
<Kamion> "2168"
<pitti> ?
<mdz> JaneW: I don't suppose there's an update from jdub
<JaneW> nope
<Kamion> the year 2168 is after the sprint, but rather further after than I meant
<JaneW> I mailed silbs and she said she is working on a plan
<pitti> heh, ok :)
<pitti> Kamion: I thought it would be l33t sp34k or so
<mdz> Kamion: please let SteveA/kiko know that 2788 is blocking very high-priority work so that it's on their radar, if you haven't already
<mdz> jbailey: anything to report?
<jbailey> LocalesThatDontSuck: Can we update to a newer locales snapshot from Belocs after UVF?  This involves some code updates for the localedef program.  If yes, when should be the stop date on that?  Otherwise, we should plan to backport a few changes and work around the slight format changes.
<jbailey> ToolchainRoadmap: Thanks to Adam for finishing the biarch work.
<jbailey> ToolchainRoadmapNg: i686 decision to be made in person with distroteam at the sprint.
<jbailey> Other: Still in London at a sprint, will be back to regular work stuff on Monday from home.
<jbailey> Packages: Haven't managed to hand off grub to zul yet - Still need to sync up for a round of bug triage.  If there's someone else with time who can help dive in, I'd appreciate it.
<Kamion> mdz: ok
<mdz> jbailey: newer snapshot doesn't sound too scary
<mdz> stop date will depend on how things go
<jbailey> mdz: No, I'm pretty happy with the idea.
<mdz> jbailey: is there anything ubuntu-ish in the grub bug list or is it pretty much gardening for upstream bugs?
<pitti> mdz: the new locales package is prepared and ready for upload, btw
<jbailey> Pretty much just a pile of upstream bugs.  We haven't done anything new with it, so there's no regressions that I know of.
<mdz> pitti: ok
<mdz> ok
<mdz> thanks jbailey
<mdz> iwj: next
<iwj> AutomatedTesting:  Tester core initial implementation finished.  I can run my one test test case (all of the upstream tests in `mawk', as one in the tests/control file).   I got diverted into ff again before I could turn it from a pile of code into a package.  This package will be in sid and dapper RSN.
<iwj> AutomatedTesting: ...  Then I'll can document what I've done properly (with mails to {debian,ubuntu}-devel).  And try adding some tests to a few more interesting packages and playing with it some more.
<iwj> Firefox:  Now synched with Debian and upstream 1.5; version number problems will be `fixed' today.
<iwj> Firefox amd64 FTBFS:  I will also look into this today.  I may need some help from a toolchain expert by the looks of it.
<iwj> Firefox: I seem to be establishing a reasonably good relationship with the Debian maintainers.
<iwj> DefaultApplicationsFirefox: no change since last report.  I will pick this up properly when AutomatedTesting is done.
<iwj> DeveloperDocumentation: Not started, not blocked.
<iwj> Bugs backlog: awful.  Don't get me started again about Malone.
<iwj> Email backlog: not too bad if you ignore bug mails.
<Kamion> jbailey: otavio (in Debian) is keen on helping us if we actually start sending him our patches a little more reliably :-)
<Kamion> jbailey: (with grub)
<iwj> Scratch that about a toolchain expert, if infinity is right about the amd64 ff problem.
<mdz> iwj: have you talked with the sysadmins about a place to run the automated tests periodically?   would be very cool to be able to see the output published somewhere
<jbailey> Kamion: Thanks for the heads up
<iwj> mdz: No, I haven't done any of that at all.  I was going to publish the code first and then talk to the sysadmins about the right kind of glue they wanted.
<iwj> They probably need a new virtualisation server (or options) or something.
<mdz> iwj: I'd be interested in a typescript sort of demo of what you have, by email
<mdz> iwj: thanks
<mdz> doko: next
<doko> status:
<doko> - toolchain-roadmap: amd64-biarch, all dependent packages (gcc* and lib32*) updated, binutils synced, spec is nearing the "implemented" status.
<doko> - toolchain-dapper+1: blocked by preparation of wanna-build and buildd infrastructure (no change)
<doko> - openoffice-gnome: not started (no change)
<doko> - openoffice-help: implemented (no change)
<iwj> mdz: Sure.  I'll put a transcript in my announcement when I make it.
<doko> - openoffice-spellchecking: not started (no change)
<doko> - native-java-gcj: infrastructure is ready, packaging of -gcj binary packages not started (no change)
<doko> - java-roadmap: mostly done, pending are eclipse updates (blocked by firefox-dev/mozilla-dev) and the native-java-gcj support, delaying that in favour of an openoffice.org-gcj package
<doko> - python-roadmap: proposal implemented, testing outside the archive now.
<doko> this week:
<doko> - openoffice.org: fix installability issue, ongoing merging with Debian unstable, setup baz archive for the debian/ parts
<doko> - python-roadmap: python-central update, uploaded to people.ubuntu.com
<doko> - toolchain-roadmap: biarch updates, binutils update
<doko> - other: syncs/merges, updates to new upstream versions, amd64 server upgrade/then new install (badly needed) including bug submissions
<doko> next week:
<doko> - finish openoffice.org sync, together with spellchecking
<doko> - drop python2.3 (either with or without python-central support)
<doko> - update the estimates for the specs (they are not current)
<jbailey> doko: Does the openoffice.org sync include 2.0.1 to breezy-updates?
<mdz> doko: how disruptive will python-central be?
<doko> mdz: not disruptive at all, it's just dropping of packages, not introduceing new one (python-central only (or python-support, whatever will survive)
<mdz> ok
<mdz> thanks
<mdz> dholbach: next
<dholbach> this week (done): GNOME 2.13.5, alongside with merges of every package, started apt-get.org building (status: good: 352, fail: 639, Current repo: 177/326)
<dholbach> this week (todo): bug triage, some more merges, start apt-get.org reviews.
<dholbach> next week: bug triage, apt-get.org reviews
<mdz> dholbach: test-plans?
<doko> jbailey: yeeess, it breaks some things (-base), but maybe let's talk about it later.
<JaneW> Still can't find mjg59  - so I mailed him for an update.
<mdz> JaneW: thanks
<jbailey> doko: Cool, thanks.
<dholbach> mdz: They are good to go. I added the gstreamer test case URL to the wiki, the media team is going to pick some reference files.
<mdz> dholbach: implemented?
<dholbach> mdz: oh yes, I'll change that.
<mdz> or waiting for content?
<dholbach> no, we're not blocked on content
<mdz> ok
<mdz> cool, thanks
<dholbach> de rien
<mdz> daniels: here?
<daniels> x-roadmap: xorg source package uploaded with cleaner config, lots of cruft kicked out.  x{,org,server}-common all collapsed into x11-common, transition should just be finished as we speak.  fixed an entertaining bug with some radeon laptops where the panel wouldn't display anything even vaguely useful.  marked as implemented in lp.
<mdz> daniels: no further breakage on the roadmap then?
<daniels> certainly none planned from me ...
<mdz> ok, thakns
<daniels> it should be safe to slip into maintenance mode now.
<infinity> After today, it should be smooth sailing.
<mdz> BenC: next
<doko> daniels: 1920x1200 resolution on amd64 doesn't work
<BenC> preventing-hardware-support-regressions: Builds for i386 and amd64 are being done and published to http://people.ubuntu.com/~bcollins/kernels-daily/. PowerPC will start today aswell. Total space per day is going to be around 260Megs, so I'm worried about space on rookery. Will keep an eye on it.
<BenC> community-server-hardware-testing: (No work from me, but...) https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTesting is in place. I reviewed it, and am in the process of adding additional info and criteria.
<BenC> Kernel status: Kernel seems stable on all platforms. No critical outstanding issues, but some important bugs are lingering. Concentrating on fixing these next week.
<daniels> the only thing I can think of is that I ripped out the language -> keymap 'smarts' assuming that lcxkb goes ahead.  you'll need to revert that one if it doesn't.
<daniels> doko: bug please
<mdz> BenC: please ask sysadmin if they would prefer to move the builds elsewhere; how many are you planning to keep?
<JaneW> ** 5 minute call
<BenC> I already asked elmo, he was good with it
<mdz> BenC: is ServerTesting ready to announce to the community for testing?
<BenC> there's 21Gigs on rookery, so I'm thinking two weeks worth
<BenC> mdz: hopefully, but I need to finish my review of it
<mdz> BenC: is sabdfl's X40 fix in the archive now?
<BenC> uploading today
<BenC> it's not an X40 issue
<BenC> it's a wireless bug
<mdz> oh, he thought it was
<mdz> ok, one request before we adjourn
<mdz> please email me your top three issues with Malone, assuming you have that many
<pitti> lol
<ogra> heh
* BenC has more :)
<Nafallo> hah
<pitti> that would mean serious picking :)
<mdz> I'll collate them for the LP folks
<pitti> mdz: thank you
<BenC> thanks
<Kamion> soyuz rollout next week, is it?
<mdz> yes, soyuz rollout next week
<iwj> mdz: Um.  OK :-).
<iwj> Joy.
<Nafallo> yay!
<Nafallo> finally soyuz :-)
<mdz> look out for an announcement of what the visible changes will be
<iwj> If I put `the web UI is awful' at the top of my list, what will happen ? :-/
<\sh> christmas so early this year? 
<mdz> iwj: nothing, because that's too vague to be useful
<mdz> iwj: instead, point to specific UI issues
<pitti> iwj: kiko and sabdfl will just beat you up, I guess :)
<daniels> https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=4537
<daniels> https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=4537
<daniels> https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=4537
<daniels> https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=4537
<pitti> four times?
<daniels> christ!  sorry.
<iwj> 1. `Navigation structure must be totally reorganised' and 2. `Page layout must be completely reorganised' ?
<daniels> this mouse is pathological.
<mdz> iwj: this isn't a joke
<iwj> You'll have seen my more detailed messages.
<iwj> I'm not joking.
<iwj> There's no point tinkering at the edges.
<mdz> iwj: there are things we can do, and things that we can't, especially in the near term
<mdz> and we're out of time here
<iwj> I'm happy to write up a more messages with serious descriptions of what I think is wrong.
<seb128> "out should not have to open 4 pages to update a bug"
<iwj> time> true.
<mdz> thanks, everyone
<seb128> s/out/you
<iwj> near term> go back to bugzilla ?
<JaneW> thanks all
<seb128> thank you mdz
<pitti> iwj: I think you shuold rather point out how it should be changed (and, FWIW, I agree that navigation is pretty hard ATM)
<JaneW> next week 20:00 UTC
<dholbach> thank you mdz
<pitti> thanks everyone
<iwj> pitti: I have been pointing out how it should be changed.  I could come up with a description of a better design except that I don't want to end up doing LP web UI design.
<pitti> iwj: I read your mail to lp-users, btw, full ack there
<doko> bye
<iwj> TTFN
* _mvo_ gumbles about his network
<iwj> go back to bugzilla> Not joking about that either.
<iwj> Even if we lose a week's changes to bug states it's probably worth it.
<pavka> Hello
<pavka> I`ve problem in dapper. Where I can get help?
<Seveas> pavka, #ubuntu
<pavka> It is only for stable systems, or isn`t?
<Seveas> no
#ubuntu-meeting 2006-01-26
* raphink is sorry for the spam yesterday. My connection is back to a normal state now.
* Ubuntuser_Ba is away: Sair para comprar presentes... 
<Seveas> Ubuntuser_Ba, ping
#ubuntu-meeting 2006-01-27
* Ubuntuser_Ba is back (gone 05:47:29)
* lucasd is away: jogando ET
<Ubuntuser_Ba> Seveas, ping
<earobinson> pong
<Ubuntuser_Ba> Seveas, ping
<Ubuntuser_Ba> Seveas, pong
* lucasd is back (gone 00:22:40)
* lucasd is away: jogando ET (ou tentando jogar)
* lucasd is back (gone 00:13:13)
<Ubuntuser_Ba> Seveas, ping
<Ubuntuser_Ba> DapperDrake, ping
<Ubuntuser_Ba> Seveas, ping
<Ubuntuser_Ba> Seveas, pong
<Seveas> Ubuntuser_Ba, hi there
<Ubuntuser_Ba> You send me one message yesterday.. 
<Ubuntuser_Ba> sorry by /away
<Ubuntuser_Ba> Seveas, you want talk to me?
<Seveas> Ubuntuser_Ba, lilo has poked me about your nickname. With the upcoming changes in freenode it would be wise for you tou register the nickname ubuntuser and link it to your current nickname. The nickname ubuntuser is registered to someone else right now but if you poke lilo he'll free it for you
<Ubuntuser_Ba> but my nickname is Ubuntuser_Ba
<Seveas> yes, nut you can link other nicknames to it, even without using them
<Ubuntuser_Ba> How??
<Seveas>  /nick ubuntuser
<Seveas>  /msg nickserv register some_password
<Seveas>  /msg nickserv link ubuntuser_ba your_current_password
<Seveas>  /nick ubuntuser_ba
<ubuntuser> Ubuntuser is already registered
<Seveas> I am poking lilo now to free it up
<Seveas> will you be around for a while?
<FRNSantos> Seveas, pvt??
<MarioMeyer_> heya Seveas 
<Seveas> hey
<MarioMeyer_> who should i bug to change my @u.c mailforward?
<Seveas> james.troup AT canonical.com
<MarioMeyer_> elmo?
<MarioMeyer_> :P ok
<Seveas> yeah, elmo
<MarioMeyer_> thx
<Ubuntuser_Ba> I have this problem too..
<Ubuntuser_Ba> I talk to Elmo.. 
<Ubuntuser_Ba> but.. 
<Ubuntuser_Ba> NO CHANGE
<Ubuntuser_Ba> :(
<MarioMeyer_> Seveas, i've been doing a lot of advertising for source-o-matic ... newbies just LOVE it.. ;)
<Seveas> Ubuntuser_Ba, elmo is a very busy person, have some patience and ask again a few weeks later
<Mithrandir> MarioMeyer_: change your preferred email address in launchpad, don't poke elmo.
<MarioMeyer_> don't work.. already tried that
<Mithrandir> MarioMeyer_: and _don't_ set the preferred email address to your .u.c one.
<MarioMeyer_> i did that a couple of weeks ago
<Ubuntuser_Ba> Seveas, my problem.. is not with elmo ...
<Ubuntuser_Ba> according him...
<sivang> a meeting?
<MarioMeyer_> nope.. just chatting
<Ubuntuser_Ba> ;)
<sivang> MarioMeyer_: what is source-o-matic?
<MarioMeyer_> Simira, sources.list generator ... http://www.ubuntulinux.nl/source-o-matic
<sivang> eh, right I recall now
<sivang> yes, that seems very useful for newbies
<MarioMeyer_> yes it is :P
#ubuntu-meeting 2006-01-28
<Ubuntuser_ba> Seveas somethingnewtome?
<Ubuntuser_ba> ;)
#ubuntu-meeting 2006-01-29
* #ubuntu-meeting  [freenode-info]  why register and identify? your IRC nick is how people know you. http://freenode.net/faq.shtml#nicksetup
* ulinskie is away: visit wahoy.com, zamboanga's free online classified ads
<jpatrick> evening \sh
<\sh> hey jpatrick 
<juliux> hi ogra_ibook 
<juliux> hi lucasvo 
<lucasvo> hi juliux
<lucasvo> whats on?
* Kyral sits back and waits
<Bonzodog> Hi Kyral
<Kyral> this will be a most interesting meeting
<Bonzodog> it will
<bddebian> It will?
* Kyral nods
<Kyral> bddebian: PM and I will explain
<bddebian> Why?
<bddebian> Hmm
<bddebian> Who's PM?
<Kyral> PM me...
<Kyral> *smack*
<bddebian> Ohh hehe, I though you were saying that you and PM would explain ;-P
<sivang> hi all
<bddebian> Heya sivang
<sivang> hi bddebian , how you been?
<bddebian> sivang: Not bad, thanks.  You?
<Tonio_> hi all
<sivang> bddebian: going through some ups and downs, mainly flu that's coming and going
<bddebian> Hello Tonio_
<bddebian> sivang: Sorry to hear that :-(
<sivang> bddebian: better now, mostly need to get some more rest
<Kingbahamut|Werk> good day all
<earobinson222> hey Kingbahamut|Werk 
<Kyral> Lets rock shall we?
<jpatrick> Kyral: fine by me :)
<Kyral> oh wait..
<Kyral> i'm not important lol :P
<earobinson222> you are to me :)
<Bonzodog> Is sabdfl attending?
* Kyral steps away from earobinson222
<ogra> Bonzodog, unlikely
<Kamion> Bonzodog: he's currently on a tour of Asia so I think it's unlikely
* Bonzodog makes it 20:54 UTC at the moment
<ogra> Kamion, elmo or mako ? or do you drive alone today ?
<Kingbahamut|Werk> that seems a likely assumption 
<Kamion> mako: here?
<Kamion> ogra: see other channel where I was just looking for elmo
<ogra> heh, yes
<Kyral> someone found him :P
<bddebian> Wow, we are graced by elmo's presence
<Kamion> hi elmo - now with any luck mako's not doing Terribly Important MITish Things
<Kamion> or sabdfl manages to get connectivity from Singapore
<Kingbahamut|Werk> it could happen , Kamion
<Kamion> otherwise we can't do new member candidates
<earobinson> that would suck :(
<jpatrick> ...for me...
<Kamion> elmo: you don't have mako's phone number do you?
<elmo> Kamion: I have a couple for him, I'll try them
<Kamion> ta
<GnuKemist> hello everyone
<Kyral> what hacker would be caught dead without at least a terminal? ;P
* GnuKemist is Og Maciel
<Kamion> ok, I guess we might as well start going through the bits of the agenda that don't require voting, anyway
<Kamion> Malone migration
<Kamion> vuntz: here?
<elmo> he's on his way
<mako> greetings!
<Kamion> (vuntz said to me earlier that he might not be here)
<Kamion> ah, great
<vuntz> Kamion: yes
<ogra> yay, mako
<Kamion> hi mako
<segfault> hi
<GnuKemist> mako howdy
<Kamion> vuntz: personally, I tend to agree that this is a TB item
<bddebian> GnuKemist: good nick :-)
* mako catches up with the agneda
<vuntz> Kamion: well, I'm okay to do this on a TB meeting :-)
<GnuKemist> bddebian thanx  =)
<vuntz> mark told me CC or TB, so I choose CC ;-)
<Kamion> vuntz: that said, ultimately it's more Canonical/Launchpad management, which neither the CC nor the TB necessarily have jurisdiction over ;-)
<vuntz> right
<vuntz> and I feel this is one of the issue, btw
<Kamion> it's perhaps worth saying that, with the amount of man-years that've been put into Launchpad, it *is* justifiably important to Canonical to get it all actually being used at some point
<vuntz> I totally agree
<Kamion> and I think without a sizeable project using it, it won't get the user attention it needs to get its problems fixed
<vuntz> the problem I'm seeing is that the community was not asked when migration should happen
<mako> are we discussingwhat to do with the first agenda item?
<Kamion> yeah, sort of
<elmo> vuntz: did anyone from the community strenuously object or is this a hypothetical/academic objection?
<\sh> vuntz: to be honest, launchpad malone migration was overdue...
<vuntz> it's just kind of weird to learn one week before the migration that it will happen
<vuntz> elmo: I wanted to do it after the dapper release
<bustacap> hehe yeah, I changed the doco pointing to the bugzilla the night before it happened - I'm not even in the 'loop'
<Kamion> it had actually been planned for before dapper, and announced as such in public (ish) at UDU ...
<vuntz> not everyone was at UDU ;-)
<Kamion> so it was late, rather than out-of-the-blue, I think
<smurf> vuntz: that's actually better than learning abot it a week afterwards ...
<vuntz> should I move the item to the TB?
<mako> it was *real* late
<Kamion> yeah, but it was publicised more than that I think
<\sh> vuntz: the time while we used malone for launchpad, the people weren't complaining so much about difficulties...other complains were only coming from ubuntu developers, and those issues were addressed during UBZ and are addressed via malone now and on  #launchpad
<smurf> ... so I wouldn't complain too strenuously. ;-)
<sivang> Kamion++
<mako> IIRC it was planned for *warty*
<Kamion> (hey, we were meant to be using Malone for Hoary. Never mind eh.)
<mako> at least in mark's mind
<Kamion> yeah, end of warty cycle
<raphink> hi all
<raphink> I'll be around for CC in 5 mins
<jpatrick> hello raphink 
<vuntz> I'm not challenging the decision, just the way it was taken
<Kyral> raphink: its now ;P
<\sh> "we used malone for universe" even
<vuntz> from a community point of view, it kind of sucked, imho
<sivang> \sh: :)
<mako> vuntz: i see what you mean
<raphink> well i just have to do something quick so I'll join
<raphink> count me in :)
<vuntz> I'd like to fix this for the future
* raphink is Raphael Pinson
<Kamion> FWIW, the Soyuz migration is happening this week ...
<mako> i think the problem is that many of us that are more involved in this had taken this move for granted for YEARS
<freeflying_> raphink: hi
<jjesse> what is soyuz?
<Kamion> although that ought to not affect people so visibly, only uploaders
<Kamion> jjesse: replacement for katie
<sivang> Kamion: shh :)
<Kyral> next question: What is Katie ;P
<elmo> vuntz: we also have to balance the timing of the announcement  with expectations - we don't want to announce a move for a certain date way in advance, only to find as we get closer we're not ready
<Kamion> Kyral: archive management
<sivang> Kyral: one of elmo's gfs
<mako> Kyral: archive maintaince software
<Kyral> Kamion: I know :P
<sivang> Kyral: ;-)
<Kyral> Kamion: I was expecting it from jjesse ;P
<minghua> hi freeflying_, glad you make it
<mdke> evening
<mako> vuntz: ok.. 
<Bonzodog> evening:)
<GnuKemist> mdke hey
<freeflying_> minghua: thx
<mako> has this meeting officially started?
<Bonzodog> I believe so
<\sh> and thinking about soyuz landing...that is a very hard..to say goodbye to katie
<mdke> mako, looks like it to me
<kjcole> vuntz: It did just seem to suddenly "happen".  (It didn't bother me, but I was also a wee bit surprised.  My reaction was more like "Really? Wow! Cool!")
<elmo> vuntz: so while the final date of migration was only announced with a short lead time, I think the fact that migration to malone was going to be the way forward sooner or later, was reasonably well publicised 
<vuntz> elmo: my point is "it was announced and community was not involved in the decision"
<elmo> vuntz: dude, that's not true
<Kamion> in the case of Soyuz, my feeling's that the (non-uploader) community won't notice or care, and hopefully I think the plan's for uploads still to happen through upload.ubuntu.com so I suspect only a few core developers will really notice the difference
<elmo> vuntz: there was no major community reaction
<mako> elmo: i think vuntz has a point
<vuntz> elmo: dude
<elmo> if there had been, and we'd forced ahead anyway, then I think you'd have more of a point
<vuntz> elmo: I can't look at my bugs ;-)
<elmo> vuntz: err, why not?
<elmo> mako: sure, not saying he doesn't
<vuntz> elmo: it's a lot harder to triage now
<mako> there are number of decisions like malone, soyuz, etc that have been goals we (speaking as canonical and early ubuntu people) have taken for granted
<vuntz> that's a big regression for people
<vuntz> but that's not the point of the item in the agenda
<mako> and that certain people in the community may (rightfully?) felt cut out of
<mako> at the *very least* we should identify those other long-term goals that are sort of things that have been here since the beginning
<mako> and document those
<jjesse> is there a place that shows these "goals"
<vuntz> elmo: I would have pushed harder to delay the migration if I knew it would happen so soon
<mako> jjesse: no, that's my point
<mako> jjesse: and getting pretty close to my first suggestion :)
<LaserJock> but how would you include the community? Have a poll?
<Kamion> LaserJock: it has to be a little more informed than that
<earobinson> LaserJock, why not use meetings?
<\sh> and to regard some decisions....if sabdfl said, we will make it this way, it's the law...even if he's wrong^Wright
<Kamion> gauging informed reaction rather than a straight yay/nay
<kjcole> mako: Sort of a "Book of Genesis" of what begat what and when.  Wiki?
<mako> announcements, meetings, discussions
<vuntz> \sh: right, but this needs to be publicized
<Kamion> wiki.launchpad.canonical.com has a lot of what's in the pipeline infrastructure-wise
<vuntz> it was not
<mako> this isn't sabfdl forcing something
<bustacap> lambert, perhaps announcing in the official doco and on the Ubuntu dot com news section along with the mailing lists..
* sivang was surprised this the transition didn't happen before.
<mako> there are other examples of that
<Kyral> send it over the Announce ML
<LaserJock> my point is that it is easy to say the community needs to be involved, but what would that mean? A CC vote?
<mako> LaserJock: if it came to that
<mako> i don't think that's the issue
<\sh> mako: I forgot the "would"
<elmo> btw, the  soyuz migration is very different
<mako> i think vuntz just feels like there are some important decisions that are being taken without involving everyone they effect
<Kamion> personally I really don't want the CC ending up voting on whether or not to move some piece of infrastructure to Launchpad or not
<elmo> as virtually nothing changes from a developer perspective
<vuntz> it's not about voting
<Kamion> elmo: yeah, that's what I was saying above too
<vuntz> it's about telling the community what will happen
<vuntz> so the community can at least give some feedback
<mako> vuntz: right, it's about deliberation and community involvement :)
<LaserJock> ok, well that makes sense
<Kyral> Why don't we use the Announce ML more?
<mako> alright, i've got two proposals
<bustacap> Kyral, the migration was in the devel ML..
<earobinson> Kyral, has a point
<Kamion> Kyral: we do use it a fair bit, and -devel-announce too; you have to balance the amount of traffic that people actually want to read
<mako> (1) canonical people try to come up with a list of other of these assumed trajectory items
<\sh> mako: but we said many times, that we will move from bugzilla to malone for main...at least since I was starting and I think many months before
<mako> it's s small list
<vuntz> \sh: for me, it was long-term item
<mako> (2) vuntz comes up with a list of concrete suggestions for how this could be avoided and when we choose to follow up on those solutions
<bustacap> vuntz, are you a reader of the devel-announce list?
<vuntz> \sh: like, in one or two years
<Kyral> how many "normal" (non-devel) users subscribe to the -devel-announce?
<vuntz> bustacap: yes
<bustacap> Kyral, that's my point..
<Kamion> Kyral: how many normal users care about the sorts of things announced there?
<vuntz> mako: yes, I can handle (2) if people agree
<mako> vuntz: why don't you do 2, work with us if you want, and then we present something at the next meeting
<bustacap> I think the migration was not only a devel issue
<Kyral> Kamion: if I hear the issue right, its about informing the community yes?
<vuntz> mako: sure
<\sh> vuntz: it's a nightmare to use two different systems for bug tracking
<vuntz> it's okay for me
<vuntz> \sh: I understand
<mako> i don't doubt that there are things we could do better
<mako> in this regard
<seb128> \sh: it's better than using malone instead of bugzilla though :p
<sivang> maybe in the future will have a more straight forward ways to track such or at least related things. (given launchpad changes are not so much of an 'ubuntu' policy maybe) https://launchpad.net/products/launchpad/+spec/distro-policy-tracker
<mako> but part of the problem is that i don't think we even thought this would be controversial
<mako> because *we* have seem it on the radar for so long
<mako> vuntz: but i think it's ok because ther is a small number of such things :)
<seb128> mako: right, but affects directly people workflow
<sivang> mako: community people who have been tracking the project, saw it all along as well, just as \sh noted
<vuntz> I was also surprised that nobody answered my concerns on ubuntu-devel about this
<Kamion> Kyral: yeah, but I think it's a bit more than "we should post our laundry lists on -announce", since as mako says there's the question of untangling what subconscious things we actually do need to tell people in advance
<bustacap> vuntz, would the issue be that it was not announced in more mainstream areas of the community?
<mako> seb128: excactly
<\sh> vuntz: regarding the cxx transition for breezy, where universe maintainers used bugzilla as well (and also for the merging stuff) it was quite confusing when to look at bugzilla and use malone for normal bug reporting and tracking for universe...for the developers (at least me) it was a nightmare
<seb128> mako: I was a bit disapointed too than nobody replied to vuntz on the list to be honest
<kjcole> kyral, bustacap, how many "normal" (non-devel) users filed bugs in either system?  (I honestly don't know, but I'd guess most filing bugs would read some of the afore mentioned lists already.)
<anandaputra> Hi all
* mako will admit he's behind on -devel mail
<seb128> mako: and that the decision has been made without the distro team (but that's probably not the topic atm)
<bustacap> kjcole, I file a fair few ;)
<vuntz> bustacap: it should have been announced before so that people could give feedback
<mako> seb128: well, it's related
<LaserJock> I did reply because I was thinking "It's about time", but that's just my opinion
<bustacap> vuntz, OK.
<Kyral> kjcole: the way I understand it, BugZilla = Main, Malone = Universe, Multiverse
<mako> seb128: please, work with vuntz to come up with a recommendation for how we can fix it
<jjesse> EXIT
<jjesse> sorry bout that
<LaserJock> *I didn't reply
<Kamion> yes, I think the announcement should have been a bit further in advance
<seb128> mako: "communicate" ... :)
<mako> seb128, vuntz: and feel free to send it to the CC before hand so we can get feedback
<seb128> mako: but sure
<Kamion> one of the problems was that we didn't actually have a date for it until quite close to the time
<kjcole> bustacap, but then you come to CC meetings too.  So, you're "up" on some of the info.
<mako> seb128: if *only* it were that easy :)
<anandaputra> sorry i'm late..
<bustacap> haha kjcole, I'm here for membership.. :)
<seb128> mako: saying 2 days before "we switch friday" is not really good communication
<mako> seb128: i tend to agree
<bustacap> but I do like this meeting..
<Kyral> seb128++
<mako> seb128: and a policy of waiting more than 2 days is probably a very sane recommendation that i personally would be fully in support of
<kjcole> kyral: Ah, I didn't start actively participating til UBZ, and then got the impression everything was moving to Malone in a matter of weeks.
<seb128> right
<bustacap> kjcole, it's a shame it's on now, I am supposed to be on the road driving to work now - but I organised a late start at work for today..
<Kamion> I'm not sure we can do much more here
<mako> alright, if you are not speaking on the topic at hand, can you please take messages into a query
<mako> this is a busier meeting than normal
<mako> and we want to let the europeans get to sleep :)
<vuntz> seb128 and I will work on propositions on how to enhance communication for such things
<Kamion> possibly worth bringing up the existence of the launchpad-users list, BTW
<Kyral> and us ESTers to get dinner ;P
<mako> excellent
<sivang> mako: please do :)
<\sh> Kamion: any statistics if there is a decrease or increase of bugreports since malone migration? I think we can only see those issues on plain numbers
<raphink> ty mako ;)
<vuntz> I'm happy with this :-)
* Bonzodog makes it 21:19 UTC in Ireland
<sivang> Kamion: good point
<mako> Bonzodog: that's not on the topic at hand :P
<mdke> the existence of launchpad-users has shown that problems can get addressed quickly
<mdke> the lack of documentation for malone was raised and resolved in a few days
<mako> alright
<mako> vuntz: so, you raised this issue.. if you're happy with this until next meeting or until you have a proposal, i'd be happy to move on :)
<vuntz> yes, we can move one
<vuntz> on
<mako> excellent :)
<mako> UDSF
<Kamion> \sh: no idea
<Kingbahamut|Werk> mako: Yes
<mako> who owns this?
* Kyral puts on a helmet
<Kyral> KB
<Kingbahamut|Werk> mako: I do 
<mako> excellent
<earobinson> As I understand Kingbahamut|Werk has said he has no problems with any of the docs being ported to the wiki
<earobinson> correct?
<Kyral> what about vice versa?
<Kingbahamut|Werk> earobinson: no I dont
<mako> basically, this is a proposal to start moving documents from the forums into the wiki?
<Kyral> yah
<mdke> not quite
<Burgwork> mako, the concern more is a split of resources
<Kingbahamut|Werk> The USDF is an archive of existing forum data, thats its purpose
<mdke> a wiki exists to which documents are moved from the forum
<anandaputra> Sorry i'm late.. About membership, are they still opening?
<mdke> it's not the Ubuntu wiki
<manicka> it's not a competing documentation project
<earobinson> anandaputra, hasent started yet
<mako> anandaputra: we'll get there
<manicka> it is an archive of forum data
<anandaputra> mako, ok.. :)
<bustacap> what is 'data'?
<bustacap> all of the posts?
<Kyral> Howtos, commonly answered questions...
<Kyral> I think
<manicka> key information posted in the threads
<Burgwork> afaics, there is nothing in the USDF that cannot find a home in the ubuntu wiki
<earobinson> I think that the docs are just another fork, like another distro both can use the data
<Kyral> wasn't the issue that Forums things met with resistance in the Wiki?
<Kingbahamut|Werk> There has been that in the past Kyral 
<mdke> Kyral, no, far from it
<Burgwork> Kyral, no, they just were not worked on
<Kyral> okay..
<Kyral> Just wanna get my facts clear
<\sh> Burgwork: depends on the license of the published forum data...
<mako> ok.. 
<mdke> can someone say what the issue for the CC is here?
<mako> lets focus here
<Kingbahamut|Werk> forum possesses no license 
<mako> mdke: excactly :)
<mako> i've read the proposal
<manicka> If the data was worked into the wiki it wouldn't an archive of the forums anymore, that's its purpose
<mako> i have two questions:
<Kingbahamut|Werk> mako: ask, capn. 
<mako> (1) what the is the state of any technical implementation that would need to be done in order to make this happen?
<mako> what needs to happen and who is going to do it and when?
<anandaputra> brb..
<mdke> mako, you've missed the point slightly. There is no proposal. There is a wiki, at doc.gwos.org which has howtos from the forum on it.
<vuntz> (that's more than 2 questions ;-))
<mako> (2) sabdfl apparently asked for a joint docteam/forums proposal.. this seems very udsf.. are there concerns or open issues from the docteam?
<mako> vuntz: ssh :)
<Kyral> Could I suggest a team that looks through the forums on a regular basis and "picks up" howtos for the Wiki?
<Kingbahamut|Werk> mako: 2, not as far as I know. The collection of the documentation is there to be collected at will bot those who wish to collec it
<manicka> there is no proposal to migrate
<Kingbahamut|Werk> bot = by
<mdke> afaics however there is no open issue. Some members of the documentation team have expressed our sadness that a separate wiki was required, rather than using the Ubuntu wiki, where we'd attempted to make it easy for forum members to contribute
<mdke> but, it quickly became clear that that is not an option
<Kingbahamut|Werk> mdke: we dont want that sorrow , but I understand the complication
<mako> mdke: ok.. so there *was* controversy that was laid to rest
<Kamion> Kyral: (in general the first step is to assemble a group of people wanting to do it, rather than to propose a team)
<manicka> most o fthe work on UDSf is done by a small group of people
<Kyral> Kamion: I would...
<elmo> I'm just going over the meeting logs from last time, the issue then seemed to be a) duplication/waste of documenting resources, b) the official forums pointing at the unofficial udsf, instead of the wiki, c) licensing stuff
<mako> my position tends to be that the CC should really only get involved in a project when there is a conflict
<manicka> not by lots of users
<Burgwork> mako, I am resigned to the existance of the USDF. Doens't mean I like it or I think it needs to exist
<mdke> mako, that is correct
<earobinson> Kamion, so would I
<mako> ubuntu is not a permission-based system
<mdke> i have the same opinion as Burgwork 
<mako> or world
<mako> people do good work, create useful resources, and that's good
<jjesse> i echo mdke and burgwork
<Kamion> what mako said; if you're all getting along and doing stuff, er, keep at it :)
<Burgwork> however I recognize the realities that USDF is nicer to edit than our Moin based wiki
<bustacap> surely the Howtos on the USDF can be assimilated into the Ubuntu wiki
<Kingbahamut|Werk> mako: that was the intent, an archival of data useful to the user 
<earobinson> bustacap, no one has said they cant
<mdke> bustacap, it takes twice as much work: docs go to two places, not one
<manicka> they are there to be used by anyone
<Bonzodog> and the data is directly from the forums, almost uneditied, apart from grammatical errors
<Kyral> the very nature of the Wiki is that anyone can add to it
<Bonzodog> it is not guaranteed to work
<bustacap> perhaps new howtos should be only drawn up in the Ubuntu wiki and the forums left only as a forum for help questions not help documentation..
<Bonzodog> as the how-to's are very much one persons discovered method of doing things
<Kamion> bustacap: in reality, I don't see that it's in our power to restrict where people write documentation
<Burgwork> USDF really actually grows out of the forums as seperate from Ubuntu thing
<robotgeek> Bonzodog: so are several articles on the Ubuntu wiki
<mdke> Kamion is quite right
<mdke> there is no issue here for the CC
<bustacap> Kamion, not a restriction but a good set of guidelines..
<Kamion> we can recommend all we like, but UDSF grew up because people found that the wiki wasn't fulfilling their needs
<manicka> no that's not true
<mdke> yes that is right
<mako> alright
<Kamion> ok, that's one reason anyway
<earobinson> I use both when I provide support, they are different styles IMO
<mako> ok.. so i tend to agree that there's no issue here
<mdke> earobinson, that's good to hear
<mako> except i tend to agree that it would be really nice if we didn't split resources or communities
<Kingbahamut|Werk> aggreed mdke
<mako> the latter is actually more troubling to me
<mako> i don't want there to be two doc teams
<Kyral> mako++
<mako> there are already many documents being created
<bustacap> one stop doco shop
<mako> maybe that's necessary.. but i'm not convinced it is
<earobinson> mako, can you see any way that It could be made easy to copy docs to the wiki and visa versa?
<Kamion> it's possibly worth pointing out that the nature of human interaction means that teams can only grow so big before they have to split in some way ...
<manicka> mako: there isn't two doc teams. We are not a doc project
<mdke> earobinson, it already is easy
<mako> and we've run into a long history of problems with the apparent ghettoization of the forums
<Kyral> earobinson cut and paste?
<Kamion> 1000-person committees don't work
<mako> manicka: you're writing documentation
<Kyral> "ghettoization"?
<mdke> earobinson, if you go to the forum howto section, there is a sticky on how to do it
<mako> Kyral: yes
<Kyral> ???
<manicka> no, i'm archiving forum data
<mako> like a small community of people that are cut of from the larger group
<Burgwork> Kyral,  a divide between the forums and rest of Ubuntu
<manicka> I don't write any docs
<Kyral> ah
<mako> not consulted, politically disconnected
<mdke> manicka, copying and pasting from the forum is a doc activity that would be really useful in the Ubuntu wiki too
<mako> disempowered
<mako> etc
<Burgwork> manicka, you are archive docs, thus you are creating docs
<Kamion> mako: more like a large community of people cut off from the smaller group ;-)
<mako> Kamion: true enough
<earobinson> mdke, then there is no problem about spliting like mako said if it is easy
<mako> manicka: there are many ways to create technical documentation
<manicka> I disagree on that Burgwork
<mako> and the docteam is open to all of them
<Kyral> there is a general feeling like that in the Forums between some peopel
<mako> Kyral: yes, that's my point
<robotgeek> earobinson: the only issue is that someone has to do the same work over and over again
<mako> and my gut feeling is that the way to fix that is not to have the forums documentation creation project and then the main project documentation project
<Kyral> mako it should go smashy (and yes I use little language for laughs :P)
<bustacap> the USDF folk should schedule a meeting with the ubuntu-doc team on IRC and discuss the issues
<Kyral> bustacap++
<mako> i think that would be wonderful
<vuntz> agree
<earobinson> but mdke said it is easy to copy docs back and forth, robotgeek to so you dont have to do the work 2 times
<mako> that's just me speaking though
<Kingbahamut|Werk> bustacap: we have and do still discuss 
<mako> Kingbahamut|Werk: good
<mako> but as far as this issues goes
<mako> i don't think there is a CC issue unless there is a conflict
<mako> and both sides say there is not
<bustacap> :)
<earobinson> bustacap,++
<mdke> let's move on
<mako> so please, go ahead, do good work
<manicka> agreed: mako
<mako> and if the USDF folks want free advice, they should look into trying to work with others who are working toward the same goals (even if they're trying to get there in different ways)
<mako> :)
<manicka> :)
<Bonzodog> :)
<bustacap> hear hear
<mako> Kingbahamut|Werk: thanks for writing that up
<Kyral> :)
<raphink> :)
<earobinson> :)
<mako> the method of pulling things out of the forums seems like a great project
<mako> i'd love to see as closely integrated into the rest of our documentation work as possible :)
<mdke> me too
<earobinson> me 3
<Kyral> me 4
<Bonzodog> mako: feel free to have a good browse around the UDSF....
<dihack> !define UDSF 
<mdke> moving on?
<dihack> any google bot here? :)
<Kyral> Ubuntu Doc Storage Facility
<dihack> o ic
<earobinson> dihack, link -> http://doc.gwos.org/index.php/Main_Page
<earobinson> mdke, ya I think so no problem so lets move on
<mako> ok.. 
<mako> for everyone that was offended
<mako> i was not calling the forums "ghetto" in any sort of derogatory way
<manicka> ok :)
<mako> you can look up the term if your curious
<GnuKemist> mako no offense taken I'm sure
<mdke> lol
<mdke> americans...
<mako> well, there was some
<mako> because many people complained to ryan evidently :)
<Kyral> mako, in the words of Dash Rendar. "I am not offended, I have been offended by professionals" :P
<mako> and i'm busying trying to explain myself in a query right now :)
<Kyral> lol
<GnuKemist> hehe
<Bonzodog> lol
<licio> :-)
<Kyral> Ryan == ?
<dihack> thanks guys, i planing to use ubuntu, just like ananda tell me how good ubuntu
<mako> i merely wanted to make the point that i wanted more communcation between the forums, people who use the forums, and th rest of the project
<mdke> Kyral, forum administrator
<mako> and more empowerment
<mako> geez
<Kyral> mdke: which one :P
<ubuntugeek> yes, just here defending the ghettoization project..
<mako> :)
<Kyral> UG?
<Kamion> wiki licensing
<Kamion> (if we're done here ...)
<mako> please
<GnuKemist> hehe
<Kamion> mdke: I think my concern on first reading is that the detail of "why" comes last rather than first
<mdke> Kamion, i was kinda hoping you guys would totally rewrite it
<Kamion> heh
<mdke> Kamion, I just chucked something down to start the ball rolling
<vuntz> small comment about the proposed mail: we can't do public domain everywhere
<vuntz> eg, I can't release my work as public domain in France
<Kamion> it should also specify CC-PD
<vuntz> (afaik)
<mdke> vuntz, ??
<mdke> you _have_ to retain copyright in what you write?
<vuntz> yes
<vuntz> well
<vuntz> it's about "droits moraux"
<Kyral> GFDL
<Kamion> (FWIW http://creativecommons.org/licenses/publicdomain/ is the text in question)
<vuntz> not sure it exists everywhere
<Kamion> Kyral: we had the licence argument last time, let's not have it again
<Kyral> oh sorry
<Kyral> lol
<mdke> yes
<vuntz> but you can say "do what you want with it"
<vuntz> it's similar to public domain
<mdke> hmm
<vuntz> :-)
<Kamion> vuntz's comment is a problem - I think it's true in Germany as well
<smurf> mdke: you can grant all right to everybody, but there are some rights which you can't disclaim or give away -- but you *can* not exercise them. Same in Germany.
<vuntz> sorry guys, need to go
<vuntz> good night
<earobinson> bye vuntz 
<raphink> 'night vuntz 
<mdke> smurf, i find that quite hard to follow. Does the text of CC-PD go against that?
<GnuKemist> wouldn't that be waived off then if the author writes such a statement? that he/she doesn't want to exercise any rights over the material?
<Kamion> personally I sorta wish we'd suggested BSD last time, since that's not that far from "PD but without the awkward disclaimer of copyright stuff"
<elmo> Kamion: we can still do that
<smurf> mdke: I haven't actually checked
<smurf> Kamion: right
<mdke> Kamion, but I believe BSD requires relicensing as BSD, no?
<elmo> but to be honest, "public domain" is easier, and better understood straing moral rights of authorship in a small number of countries not withstanding
<Kamion> GnuKemist: none of us here are intellectual property lawyers (er, if somebody is, please speak up); inventing licences or guessing at their meaning in different countries is a bad idea if you aren't one
<GnuKemist> Kamion gotcha...
<Kamion> mdke: just like PD, yes
<\sh> elmo: to be more precise...in germany "public domain" means more "give it away without any money, but copyright is mine"
<Kamion> elmo: yeah, unfortunately I suspect the small number of countries are significant in terms of authorship
<elmo> I think we should go with "PD + (And if you can't do that, please use this MIT/BSD/'tever [simplest]  license instead)
<Kamion> so we probably ought to know what's going on
<mdke> Kamion, is that true?
<Kamion> mdke: is what true?
<elmo> mdke: of course it's true?
<mdke> Kamion, there is nothing to suggest that a user can't relicense a derivative surely?
<elmo> oh, we've got cross wires
<mako> the PD licenses from CC are really difficult to internationalize
<elmo> mdke: you're talking about relicensing something under PD?
<mdke> elmo, yes
<LaserJock> how do these licenses effect doc team docs that want to use wiki material?
<Kamion> sorry, I should say MIT really not BSD, thanks elmo
<elmo> I think kamion and I are talking about the existing material
<mdke> oh sorry
<dihack> btw anyone can speak bahasa? 
<Kamion> LaserJock: the point of using a weak licence is to make it easy for docteam to reuse material
<mdke> Kamion, but the docteam relicenses their work
<Kamion> that's one of the reasons GPL/GFDL/whatever would be awkward - they impose extra constraints on the docteam
<mdke> BSD/MIT don't allow that, afaics
<Kamion> mdke: relicenses from what to what?
<LaserJock> that's my concern
<mdke> Kamion, the docteam takes wiki material, and puts it in docs licensed under GFSL/CCbySA
<LaserJock> I would like to take wiki material and include it in a GPL doc
<mdke> the BSD and MIT say, all copies and derivatives need to include the same license
<smurf> The CC-PD dedication lacks something that would be a salvatory clause (as it's a license and not a contract, wording that one is a bit tricky), if it had one I'd be reasonably comfortable with it
<elmo> mdke: why do the docteam need/want to do that?
<Kamion> mdke: other than PD, pretty much no licences allow arbitrary relicensing, but you can *incorporate* BSD-licensed material as long as you include the copyright notice
<Kamion> which hardly seems onerous to me
<smurf> Kamion: +1
<mdke> Kamion, right
<Kamion> what's the problem with "this document contains material released under the MIT licence, reproduced here: <splat>"
<Kamion> ?
<mdke> elmo, more historical than anything else, afaics
<Kamion> so long as the licences are compatible
<elmo> I like PD because it matches how I think we can justify nationalizing the current wiki content, that's the only reason I'm interested in keeping it as the default.  relicensing under a more restrictive license by the community isn't something I'd invisaged/intended
<mdke> Kamion, i see no problem, but having so many licenses flying around might be a little awkward
<mako> mdke: i tend to think that you are more qualified to make this deiciosn than any of us
<elmo> mdke: it should only be 2/3 max?
<mako> mdke: from both legal positions and from wiki positions :)
<elmo> mdke: CC-BY-SA for the bulk, some GFDL (?) and now some MIT
<Kamion> one problem with MIT/BSD would be that doing it right would require a copyright notice for every contributor
<elmo> any non-trivial software project is usually under at least that many licenses ;-)
<mdke> elmo, i dunno, we just inherited those licenses, they can be rediscussed another time
<mdke> but I like PD too
<Kamion> so yeah, as elmo says PD would be a lot simpler
<mdke> i'm slightly concerned by what smurf has said about german/french law
<Kamion> mako: do you have any pet lawyers we could check this with? :)
<elmo> Kamion: honestly, I think we should try to do that as best we can anyway
<elmo> Kamion: and it could also be automated
<mako> Kamion: i have a few :)
<elmo> in much the same way as we're automating the mail
<elmo> since wiki accounts are forever...
<Kyral> they are?
<mdke> Kyral, like diamonds
<Kyral> lol
<elmo> this draft needs a lot more work tho
<mdke> what are we gonna do about this?
<mako> mdke: better than diamonds
<elmo> I don't suppose anyone could volunteer to do that?  I certainly don't have time this week
<bustacap> ship it off to legals :)
<Kamion> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_domain has a good discussion FWIW
<mdke> elmo, i'll do it if you give me some indication of what you want
<elmo> my proposal is change it to "PD + MIT iff you can't"
<smurf> mdke: I'd be far happier with a text that grants anybody who wants to use the text all nonexclusive rights, that's at least an idea that's compatible with German copyright law ;-)
<Kamion> and http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Donate_to_the_public_domain has a suggestion for countries where PD doesn't work
<mdke> how about smurf's proposal
<mdke> i like that
<bustacap> an Ubuntu Document License ;D
<Kamion> "The copyright holder of this [work]  allows anyone to use it for any purpose, including unrestricted redistribution, commercial use, and modification."
* bustacap is evil for suggesting such a thing..
<smurf> Kamion: that would work
<Kyral> lol
<Kamion> oh, sorry, not that bit
<Kamion> "I, the creator of this work, hereby release it into the public domain. This applies worldwide.
<Kamion> In case this is not legally possible:
<Kamion> I grant anyone the right to use this work for any purpose, without any conditions, unless such conditions are required by law.
<Kamion> "
<Kamion> dunno if that's been legally vetted though
<elmo> that works for me
<earobinson> Kamion, thats looks like a good idea
<bustacap> hehe call it the UDL
<mako> ok.. i can run it by a lawyer
<mdke> Kamion, worksforme too
<mako> if you want
<earobinson> Do the pest we can and if not just set it free
<elmo> mako: US or !?
<mako> US
<Kamion> mdke: I can do some other work on the draft tomorrow if you like
<mako> but who knows that the world beyond exists
<elmo> err ! ?, as in not, not omglol explanationism
<mdke> Kamion, that would be great
<Kamion> trying to change the emphasis a bit
<mako> alright
<mako> we don't need to hash this out here
<\sh> Kamion: it only says, that the copyright is hold by the original author, but everyone is free to use it without any legal restrictions...that's very compatible with the european union...until someone has more clue about european copyright laws
<mako> we're 1h into this.. i'm a little worried about time :)
<mako> can we move on?
<mdke> yep, i'm happy
<\sh> s/hold/held/
<Kyral> and I'm hungry... :P
<mako> mdke: nice
<earobinson> me 2 Kyral 
<mdke> thanks for finding that Kamion 
<mako> alright
<smurf> mako: +1
<mako> og's comment we can skip
<mako> since it doesn't need to be seen by this group
<mako> any other non-member, non-loco business?
<mako> alright
<GnuKemist> mako any way I can speed this up?
<mako> guerby: we're doing this as fast as we can
<mako> GnuKemist: ^^
<mdke> GnuKemist, mail the address I noted
<mako> oh, you mean the shipment
<GnuKemist> mdke k...  thanks
<GnuKemist> mako yes
<mako> info@shipit.ubuntu.com
<guerby> mako, hi :)
<mako> alright
<mako> guerby: tab completions :)
<guerby> yeah :)
<mako> alright
<mako> any loco teams not on the agenda that are here
<mako> new ones
<mako> ?
<mako> no
<mako> alright members
<GnuKemist> unfortunately I can't stay any longer... but left testimonial for licio ...  take care everyone
<Riddell> jpatrick would like to go first for membership, he has to get away
<GnuKemist> licio break a leg buddy
<mako> everyone should have or should now prepare 1-3 sentences on their work on ubuntu and where they want to tkae the project
<Ubuntuser_Ba> yeah!
<mako> Riddell: ok
<anandaputra> i'm ready..
<manicka> ok
<earobinson> ready
* bustacap is Naaman Campbell
<lmanul> Same
<bustacap> right to go..
* lmanul is Manu Cornet
<earobinson> (assuming I can cut and paste from my wiki page)
<ogra> lmanul, oh, you dropped some l's :)
* licio is Licio Fernando
<lmanul> ogra, yeah, easier to tab-complete ^^
<dihack> wait i'm new here, here for helping ananda
<manicka> <-- Grant Galbraith
* Tonio_ is Anthony Mercatante
<earobinson> well jpatrick should go first if he has to go soon ....
<raphink> go jpatrick go :)
<Kyral> go go go :P
<earobinson> MIA?
<raphink> earobinson: ?
<earobinson> yes?
<raphink> MIA?
<ogra> missing in action
<mako> sorry.. lost my connection there for a second
<earobinson> missing in action
<raphink> ogra: oh ok :)
<earobinson> want a cut and paste pm mako 
<bustacap> mako, yay, we need some adjudication.. :)
<mdke> earobinson, he didn't leave the channel
<mdke> let's go dudes
* dihack idban secandri
<raphink> yep
<earobinson> if jpatrick is not going do you want me to?
<ogra> so it seems jpatrick isnt around then ...
<mako> jpatrick: ?
<mako> alright
<bustacap> I need to head off to work soon..
<raphink> jpatrick: ...
<mako> well lets move on
<earobinson> ok well im really going to cut and paste from my wiki page
<Kamion> earobinson: ok, go
<earobinson> Activity
<earobinson>    1.
<earobinson>       Spreading the Ubuntu spirit. I do this by showing many people the distribution and open source programs in general. Also I give out the CDs!
<earobinson>    2.
<earobinson>       I am very active on the Ubuntu forums ([WWW]  Team Leader) and provide support and focused mostly on providing support.
<earobinson>    3.
<earobinson>       I have been running dapper to aid with the testing.
<earobinson> My name is Edward Robinson currently living in Ontario, Canada. Im a computer science major at the University of Toronto and I have been using Linux since 2003 and Ubuntu since May 2005.
<earobinson> I would like to see Ubuntu grow, and more users being able to use Ubuntu problem free. To do this I feel that One of the most important things is to support new users, and the Ubuntu forums have played a very important role in this. I would like to continue to become a part of this growing community, and to grow with it. 
<Kamion> anyone like to speak up for earobinson's support skills?
<Kamion> s/skills/contributions/ perhaps
<Kyral> He has been active on the Forums..
<earobinson> In time I would like to get more and more involved as school and work let me, I have worked with a lot of people on the forums like Kingbahamut|Werk  and Kyral 
<mdke> i've read a number of posts by earobinson on the forum (community related, rather than support) and he seems very sensible
<earobinson> *blush*
<Kyral> but I haven't been on the Forums in a while
<manicka> earobinson is very active on the forums and gives good advice
<mako> earobinson: have you been contributing since last may?
<earobinson> I have been around for a long time
<manicka> as a staff member he keeps me busy with mod reports about various issues
<earobinson> but I really started about 6 months ago
<Kamion> what kind of issues?
<earobinson> really started to pick it up
<earobinson> Kamion, everything from geting posts moved to the correct forum to reporting abuse and spam
<manicka> posts in incorrect forums etc
<earobinson> Just try to help things run good as they can
<manicka> and abuse and spam
<earobinson> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/EdwardARobinson <- for anyone that wants it
* mako has already read it
<mako> are there current members here who can vouch for earobinson 
<mako> ?
<Kyral> I can
<earobinson> a couple did no?
<mdke> I did
<mako> mdke: right
<mako> well, 1200+ posts over 6 months counts as both significant and sustained in my book
* mako is happy for membership
<earobinson> is Kingbahamut|Werk here? Im sure he would vote for me
<Kingbahamut|Werk> yes I am 
<earobinson> thanks mako
<Kingbahamut|Werk> and yes I would earobinson
<mako> Kamion, elmo: ?
<Kyral> earobinson++
<earobinson> thanks Kingbahamut|Werk 
<Kamion> fine by me
<elmo> yeah, me too
<mako> alright thne
<mako> PROGRESS
<earobinson> and Kyral and mdke
<bddebian> heh
<mako> earobinson: welcome
<mdke> welcome earobinson 
<Kamion> sorry, I usually get lost in browsing forum posts when this sort of thing comes up :)
<ogra> welcome earobinson 
<mako> was there someone else who was about to leave?
<mako> who is on the roster?
<bustacap> yeah..
<Kyral> drinks are on you earobinson ;P
<Ubuntuser_Ba> Congratulations earobinson!
<earobinson> thanks all
<mako> otherwise, we can maintain some semblance of order
<mdke> bustacap is up next
<raphink> congrats
* kjcole blows a clarion
* Kyral is hungry ;P
<anandaputra> congrats earobinson!
<mdke> both in terms of leaving soon, and being next on the list
<Ubuntuser_Ba> welcome to Ubuntu Team!
<licio> Congratulations earobinson :-)
<mako> who is bustacap?
* bustacap is Naaman Campbell
<earobinson> :)
<mako> very recently added i see :)
<elmo> oh, _that's_ what humbug stands for
<mako> i've heard of humbug :)
<bustacap> Sweet..
<earobinson> mako anything i need to know / do now?
<Kamion> the corporate/sunray documents are pretty impressive
<mdke> the docs on the wiki are good
<mdke> whiprush has blogged about em with high praise
<elmo> bustacap: (nitpick: vigr is preferred to vi-ing e/tc/group directly)
<bustacap> That's my main tangent at the moment, is joining the wiki team
<mako> bustacap: how long have you been involved in writing these docs?
<mako> bustacap: the first bug i see from you is 3 weeks ago
<bustacap> and continuing writing more large doco
<mako> bustacap: are you active in any team yet?
<bustacap> yeah, my time for bugs is dictated by work..
* Snake__ is Ken Minardo
<bustacap> I have pending applications for Ubuntu and the Wiki team
<mako> that's fine.. i'm just trying to get a sense for how long you've been involved so far
<Kamion> vigr> or just 'adduser cupsys shadow', in this case
<bustacap> I wish to get involved in the doc team after settling into the wiki team
<mdke> bustacap, we don't do "applications" on the wiki team, just join the mailing list, and #ubuntu-doc and get communicating. It will be nice to see you
<bustacap> and perhaps the direction of it as well..
<mako> yes.. the sunray page is very impressive
<mdke> wiki team = doc team
<mako> right
<bustacap> ok :)
<mako> both pages are great actually
<bustacap> the sunray page is part of getting Ubuntu a higher share of the business desktop market
<bustacap> I would like to be involved in a team/discussions relating to the business use of Ubuntu
<mako> right
<Kamion> TBH I'm happy, the sort of sysadmin commitment involved here implies sustained involvement, I think
<bustacap> part of fixing bug #1 :)
<mako> ok.. these pages are like 2 months old
<mako> and show a pretty consitent involvement over that period
<bustacap> yes and I wish to maintain the level as well..
<ogra> bustacap, do you run the thin clients with ubuntu ltsp ? 
<mako> i'd like to see you *surpass* that level :)
<bustacap> yes..
<ogra> wow, cool
<bustacap> so would I mako :)
<mako> alright, i'd love to see you actually get involved in the some of the teams first..
<mako> your work is *great* but it's almost all stuff you've worked on independently
<mako> Kamion: what do you think?
<bustacap> yes, that's why I wanted to gain membership status, to join teams, have a say, etc..
<mako> bustacap: you don't need to gain membership status to join teams :)
<mako> in fact, it's quite the opposite
<ogra> you can join teams without being a member (at least in MOTU)
<ogra> (or edubuntu)
<mako> memberships status i usually only given to people who are already active in teams! :)
<mako> bustacap: since nobody else is speaking up..
<Kamion> mako: if you hadn't said anything I'd've been happy to say yes, I Think
<Kamion> s/T/t
<mako> alright
<mako> i don't know what that means :)
<Kamion> since there's significant/sustained contribution there and I like the sound of sysadmins in big corporates getting involved and documenting publicly what they're doing
* mako nods
<mako> alright then
<elmo> I'm happy to agree with either of you, so don't look at me to tie break :-P
<Kyral> hehe
* mako is fine with membership and is looking forward to good team contributions
<bustacap> Kamion, I think it is a good direction for sysadmins working on Ubuntu..
<mdke> lol @elmo
<mako> bustacap: thanks for your contributions so far.. i'm looking forward to more :)
<Kamion> bustacap: sysadmin is so often reinvent-the-wheel-city, I can only see good coming from documenting more of it
<bustacap> mako, you shall see more, thank you..
<mako> bustacap: i think that means welcome :)
<ogra> welcome bustacap 
<bustacap> thanks dude
<Kamion> yup, works for me, thanks for your work so far
<mako> licio: is next 
<Ubuntuser_Ba> another to family... Welcome bustacap!
<mako> licio: cute hackergotchi
<mdke> -> bed, thanks all
<Kyral> Hip Hip HOORAY! :P
<licio> mako, :-)
<\sh> Kamion: is your statement "sysadmin is so often reinvent-the-wheel-city" BSD licensed? :)
<Ubuntuser_Ba> is very Ugly... :)
<bustacap> thanks guys..
<Kamion> \sh: please take it outside the meeting
<\sh> (so I could use it on a geek shirt) :)
<earobinson> welcome bustacap 
<mako> licio: introduce yourself
<licio> i'm a 20-years-old Computer Science student from Belo Horizonte, Brazil. I consider myself a supporter of the open source community/movement, a feeling that was extremelly augmented when I first started using GNU/Linux in 2001. My first distro was Conectiva Linux (now known as Mandriva), later replaced by Debian which I used until october of 2004. I was very satisfied with Debian but somehow I felt that there was something else missing. That's w
<licio> hen I first tried Ubuntu 4.10, a true love at first sight!
<mako> man.. today it's all slackers.. just pasting from their wiki pages
<Kamion> janimo: around? anything to say about licio re xubuntu?
<licio> 'Lately I've been working with the effort to translate Ubuntu and packages to pt_BR, "hunting" for bugs, supporting users at #ubuntu-br, and helping with the maintenance of the Brazilian wiki pages by translating documentation and creating tutorials (most seen at http://planeta.ubuntubrasil.org).
<mako> licio's karma has something to say about licio
<Kamion> usual translator infinite karma of DEATH :)
<mako> something like, "LOTS OF TRANSLATIONS"
<mako> licio: you're work is well represented in LP
<licio> :-)
<segfault> he's a translator warrior
<Ubuntuser_Ba> Yes.. is one member expressive!
<segfault> he even surpassed my karma recently
<licio> thanks
<segfault> :(
<Kamion> quality still good?
<mako> licio: how long have you been involved?
<segfault> sure
<mako> a number of bugs too
<Ubuntuser_Ba> licio is one member active in the Planeta Ubuntu Brasil!!
<Ubuntuser_Ba> in the IRC channel
<segfault> he was translating upstream, but some members were having some problems with commiting their changes
<Ubuntuser_Ba> and Forum too
<segfault> so he chose rosetta
<mako> alright
<mako> i'm happy with membership for the combination of contributions
<licio> mako, 6 months
<mako> and the testimionaials
<mako> licio: sounds good :)
<Ubuntuser_Ba> The Brazil.. puting the Ubuntu in the Top!!
<licio> mako, :-D
<Tonio_> :)
<Kamion> licio++ from me to
<Kamion> too
<elmo> ack
<mako> alright then
<mako> licio: welcome!
<Ubuntuser_Ba> Congratulations my friend licio!!!
* ogra applauds in brazilian direction
<Ubuntuser_Ba> Thanks ogra!
<segfault> licio: congrats!
<mako> manicka: you're up?
<licio> mako, and all thanks
* Kyral pulls out a compass and tries to find Brazil lol
<manicka> ok
<manicka> My main claim for membership stems from the sustained and ongoing support that I have provided to users on Ubuntuforums since May 2005. My focus is on technical support for new users and general desktop support. My contributions in this area (1500+ posts) have recently been recognised by being accepted as a member of the moderating staff on the Forums. I am also a regular visitor to several ubuntu related IRC channels.
<Ubuntuser_Ba> Yes.. welcome to family!!
<manicka> One of my largest contributions at the Forums, apart from user support, has been as a founding member of the Ubuntu Document Storage Facility http://doc.gwos.org, the knowledgebase and repository of Forum data. The UDSF has already been discussed in some detail today so I won't explain its purpose any further here.
<manicka> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/GrantGalbraith  <-->  https://launchpad.net/people/manicka
<raphink> Kyral: rooh
<Kyral> manicka told me he was interested in helping with Edubuntu...
<ogra> manicka, oooh, please drop by in #edubuntu if this is true :)
<manicka> Yes, I'm a teacher and wnat to be more involved in edubuntu
<manicka> will do
<ogra> great :)
<mako> manicka: wow, that's great :)
<FLeiXiuS> manicka: edubuntu + freenx :-)
<FLeiXiuS> Makes for one hell of a solution for thin clients.
<Kyral> oyah
<manicka> it's part of my plans for the future
<Kyral> FreeNX++ ;P
<mako> kassetra: thanks for your testimonial
<earobinson> I would like to show support for manicka (not sure if it counts till next meeting)
<Kyral> kass is here?
<Kyral> I vouch for him
<Bonzodog> manicka is real core part of the UDSF...his contribution has proven invaluable
<Ubuntuser_Ba> bye friends.. I have to go now.. 
<kassetra> mako: manicka really goes above and beyond the call of duty as a staff member on the forums.
<earobinson> guess so Kyral 
<FLeiXiuS> manicka is a beast, so I hear.
<manicka> lol
<FLeiXiuS> ;-)
<FLeiXiuS> kassetra: My fuze came in today, she'll be pleased to see it.
<mako> manicka: how long have you been involved?
<Kamion> sorry, was browsing forum links again ... manicka seems to have contributed plenty forums-wise, and having more moderators as members is always great
<manicka> since may 2005
* mako nods to kassetra 
<mako> well
<Kyral> Thats almost as long as I...
<mako> to Kamion  too
<earobinson> Kamion, Ya I think its a very good thing
<elmo> I'm fine for membership
* mako also
<mako> win 18
* mako blushes
<Kamion> ok, sounds good to me, welcome manicka
<Kyral> mischan?
<mako> manicka: welcome
<Kyral> Congrats manicka!
<manicka> thankyou
<earobinson> grats manicka 
<mako> Tonio_: around?
<licio> mako, welcome :-)
<Bonzodog> congrats manicka
* ogra shouts something non CoC compliant in direction of his DSL provider ...
* Kyral jump hugs manicka
<Tonio_> yep
<mako> go go go
<Tonio_> My name's Anthony Mercatante, living in Paris, France.
<Tonio_> My Wiki page : https://wiki.kubuntu.org/AnthonyMercatante
<Tonio_> Launchpad : https://launchpad.net/people/anthony-mercatante
<Tonio_> I mostly contributed by providing packages, but also depending on the context and the help needed on the moment, which includes testing, icons designing or submitting ideas for default configuration etc...
<Tonio_> My motivations are simple. I like Ubuntu, and I really think it has the potential of the best desktop linux distro out there (if not already). So I appreciate to give "my two cents" of contribution.
<ogra> congrats manicka 
<manicka> thanks everyone :)
<raphink> Tonio is a major contributor in Kubuntu development. I care particularly about his membership since he was the one bringing me to package ubuntu apps, which is now my main activity with reviewing ;)
<elmo> I don't even have to look at Tonio's wikipage, I recognise his name from the flood of KDE new packages
<raphink> he maintains about 20 packages in Ubuntu
<Kyral> He's very active in MOTU (to say the least)
<raphink> :)
* mako nods to elmo 
<raphink> yeah
<Tonio_> elmo: ^^ thanks ;)
<mako> elmo: however, you should
<mako> because it's also a very good page
<elmo> heh
<raphink> to the opinion of many, Tonio should already be a MOTU, had he taken the opportunity to apply
<mako> Tonio_: if i wasn't convinced BEFORE seeing your page, i would be convinced now
<mako> Tonio_: how long have you been involved?
<mako> (i've asked everyone else)
<Tonio_> mako: nice to ear :)
<minghua> yeah, impressive package list, nice job Tonio_
<Tonio_> mako: I'm involved since march/april 2005
<ogra> Tonio_, so did you dive with sharks already ? 
<mako> Tonio_: nice :)
<mako> ramping up i see
<Tonio_> the day I decided to use linux as replacement for my win XP, and installed ubuntu
<Riddell> Tonio_'s done lots of stuff for kubuntu, he's long past due membership
<Tonio_> I felt in love with it's community, really
<ogra> Riddell++
* mako nods to Riddell 
<Kyral> Do we even need to vote? ;P
<raphink> hehe
<Kamion> Tonio_++ as far as I'm concerned anyway
<raphink> ;)
<mako> Tonio_: thank you for making a great wiki page, for doing great work
<mako> i'm happy with membership
<Kamion> good work
<raphink> no vote required, this is just recognition de facto
<Tonio_> thanks everyone, that's a pleasure to ear !
<mako> Tonio_: we may use your wiki page to show to other applicants and example :)
<Kyral> I think if someone didn't vote right now, they'd be collectively smacked :P
<anandaputra> hi all.. when is my turn? it was 5 am here in Indonesia and i'm very sleepy.. :D
<mako> anandaputra: you're next :)
<mako> anandaputra: go :)
<Tonio_> mako: you should look at raphink's one.... 
<Tonio_> by far better than my one
<mako> Tonio_: i have 
<mako> the quality of wiki pages have imporved a lot in the last 2 months
<anandaputra> My name is Ananda Putra. Currently I'm living in Jakarta, Indonesia. I've been totally using Linux since 1999. I was Chairman of Bandung Linux Users & Enthusiasts Society (http://bandung.linux.or.id) in 2001 until 2003. We've made some activity to spread Linux and free software paradigm in our town (Bandung, Indonesia). I'm using Redhat 6.0 for my first time Linux distro, and than I had used Slackware for my works for the long time until I insta
<anandaputra> I'm 26 years old man
<raphink> welcome to the team (officially) Tonio_ ;)
* raphink hugs Tonio
<Tonio_> thanks everyone !
<anandaputra> My name is Ananda Putra. Currently I'm living in Jakarta, Indonesia. I've been totally using Linux since 1999. I was Chairman of Bandung Linux Users & Enthusiasts Society (http://bandung.linux.or.id) in 2001 until 2003. We've made some activity to spread Linux and free software paradigm in our town (Bandung, Indonesia). I'm using Redhat 6.0 for my first time Linux distro, and than I had used Slackware for my works for the long time until I insta
<mako> deja vu
<anandaputra> My name is Ananda Putra. Currently I'm living in Jakarta, Indonesia. I've been totally using Linux since 1999. I was Chairman of Bandung Linux Users & Enthusiasts Society (http://bandung.linux.or.id) in 2001 until 2003. We've made some activity to spread Linux and free software paradigm in our town (Bandung, Indonesia). I'm using Redhat 6.0 for my first time Linux distro, and than I had used Slackware for my works for the long time until I insta
<smurf> anandaputra: 200-character limit per line
<raphink> hmmpf
<smurf> anandaputra: cut off after "for the long time"
<mako> is there anyone here who can speak up for anandaputra?
<anandaputra> ups.. sorry..
<mako> i see a small number of (2 month old) translations in rosetta and not a whole lot of other documentation
<anandaputra> My name is Ananda Putra. Currently I'm living in Jakarta, Indonesia. I've been totally using Linux since 1999. I was Chairman of Bandung Linux Users & Enthusiasts Society (http://bandung.linux.or.id) in 2001 until 2003. We've made some activity to spread Linux and free software paradigm in our town (Bandung, Indonesia).
<dihack> i do tell him :)
<anandaputra> Yes.. I still have no direct contribution to Ubuntu yet..
<Riddell> anandaputra: how active is #ubuntu-id and is there an indonesian loco team?
<anandaputra> But I do some advocacy here
<mako> anandaputra: ok.. i'd ask you to build up a profile and resume of some of those direct contributions
<anandaputra> I encouraged people for using Ubuntu in Indonesia
<mako> anandaputra: and then come back for membership :)
<mako> anandaputra: right.. that work is *greatly* appreciated
<mako> anandaputra: but we still need documentation of that
<mako> anandaputra: and i don't see a lot of that
<mako> anandaputra: that doesn't mean you haven't done it or that we don't appreciate it.. it's just not clear from looking at your patge
<anandaputra> http://www.davidsudjiman.info/?p=79
<lmanul> (If I could be next, I'd be really grateful, getting late over here :)  )
<dihack> maybe you interst to read that article
<dihack> it about ubuntu shipping
<mako> lmanul: it's long for all of us.. we're going as fast as we can
<dihack> :(
<lmanul> mako, np
<ogra_> mako, lmanul was on top of the list initially :)
<mako> lmanul: you're next then
<lmanul> :)
<lmanul> All right
<mako> dihack: now is not the time to be bringing new things up
<mako> we apprecaite you work
<earobinson> I only went cuz no one else was going sorry
<lmanul> My name is Manu Cornet, I'm a 24 year-old French guy living in Paris, France. I'm currently a PhD student in bioinformatics, as well as a musician, graphics designer and author of a few books. I'm a member of the Desktop Team, GNOME team and Art Team, active on IRC channels (#ubuntu-desktop, #ubuntu-fr, #ubuntu) and mailing lists (ubuntu-desktop, ubuntu-devel).
<mako> but as it's currently documented, i don't think it would be fair to others we have asked to come back
<mako> lmanul: hold up dude :)
<mako> lmanul: we're not done with anandaputra 
<lmanul> Woops :-p
<mako> jumped the gun
<lmanul> Sorry, my "Enter" slipped :-p
<mako> anandaputra: if you want, you can run the page by me or other people from the CC
<anandaputra> As a matter of fact, I've not own any computer right now, so I always bring Ubuntu Install CD and Ubuntu Live CD..
<mako> anandaputra: that's great
<mako> anandaputra: but we need to document your direct contributions before we can grant you membership
<mako> anandaputra: so lets work on that for another meeting :)
<mako> anandaputra: hopefully one at a more convenient time for you :)
<mako> anandaputra: ok?
<anandaputra> ok than..
#ubuntu-meeting 2007-01-22
<juliux> @schedule berlin
<Ubugtu> Schedule for Europe/Berlin: 22 Jan 21:00: MOTU | 24 Jan 13:00: Edubuntu | 25 Jan 17:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 30 Jan 21:00: Technical Board | 31 Jan 21:00: Edubuntu | 31 Jan 23:00: Xubuntu
<Hobbsee> @schedule sydney
<Ubugtu> Schedule for Australia/Sydney: 23 Jan 07:00: MOTU | 24 Jan 23:00: Edubuntu | 26 Jan 03:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 31 Jan 07:00: Technical Board | 01 Feb 07:00: Edubuntu | 01 Feb 09:00: Xubuntu
<Hobbsee> argh...i forgot about that meeting....
* Mithrandir tickles Hobbsee 
* Hobbsee tickles Mithrandir 
* Hobbsee falls asleep on Mithrandir's shoulder, as an afterthought
* Mithrandir hides behind the all-seeing penguin of doom
<Mithrandir> aka "penguin with a webcam"
<Hobbsee> argh!  not a webcam!!!
* Hobbsee runs away
<Mithrandir> it's cute.
* Hobbsee is unphotograpable, and unvideoable
<Hobbsee> hehe :)
<gnomefreak> @schedule new_york
<Ubugtu> Schedule for America/New_York: 22 Jan 15:00: MOTU | 24 Jan 07:00: Edubuntu | 25 Jan 11:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 30 Jan 15:00: Technical Board | 31 Jan 15:00: Edubuntu | 31 Jan 17:00: Xubuntu
<Toadstool> @schedule los_angeles
<Ubugtu> Schedule for America/Los_Angeles: 22 Jan 12:00: MOTU | 24 Jan 04:00: Edubuntu | 25 Jan 08:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 30 Jan 12:00: Technical Board | 31 Jan 12:00: Edubuntu | 31 Jan 14:00: Xubuntu
<sharms> @schedule detroit
<Ubugtu> Schedule for America/Detroit: 22 Jan 15:00: MOTU | 24 Jan 07:00: Edubuntu | 25 Jan 11:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 30 Jan 15:00: Technical Board | 31 Jan 15:00: Edubuntu | 31 Jan 17:00: Xubuntu
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:Ubugtu] : Current meeting: MOTU | Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 24 Jan 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 25 Jan 16:00 UTC: Ubuntu Development Team | 30 Jan 20:00 UTC: Technical Board | 31 Jan 20:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 31 Jan 22:00 UTC: Xubuntu
<sistpoty> hi folks
<sistpoty> anyone here for motu-meeting?
<LaserJock> hi sistpoty
<sistpoty> hi LaserJock
<ajmitch> maybe
<LaserJock> so... who's running the show today?
<ajmitch> you are
<ajmitch> or sistpoty
<ajmitch> there only seems to be a couple of people here
<sistpoty> I'd prefer if LaserJock would do it ;)
<sistpoty> (am just about eating dinner *g*)
<Adri2000> hi everybody
<sistpoty> hi Adri2000
<sharms> I am here for motu
<lionel> hi all
* ScottK is here too to watch and learn.
* zul lurks
* tsmithe is here
* phanatic tries to follow the meeting
* persia is here
<LaserJock> well, I'll have to leave in less then an hour so we need to get with it
* somerville32 is here.
<Adri2000> sharms: to apply for ubuntu-dev membership?
<LaserJock> the agenda is at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/Meetings
* tsmithe will one day apply for that
* tsmithe needs ubuntu memebership first...
<Adri2000> sharms: if so, it's the wrong meeting ;) currently ubuntu-devs are approved by the TB, and soon by the MC
<sharms> Adri2000: Just to listen
<ajmitch> ok, SRU process
<LaserJock> tsmithe: well, eventiall MOTU Council will do that too
<ajmitch> sistpoty: you have the floor, let's get moving
<Adri2000> sharms: ah, ok, fine then :)
<sistpoty> has everybody followed the mails to -motu and read https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/Processes/SRURedone?
<sistpoty> if not, please do so ;)
<sistpoty> well... imo it takes way too much time until a update even hits proposed...
<sistpoty> on the wiki-page, I've tried to make some proposals what can be fixed
<sistpoty> but it might be a good thing if somebody *not* from the sru-team would make comments as well (as it's sometime hard to see problems if you're involved on one end)
<sistpoty> so anyone some idea how to improve the sru-process?
<LaserJock> well, the biggest problem, IMO, is how many people it has to pass
<ajmitch> whoever is last to approve the package (in the SRU team) should upload it
<LaserJock> ajmitch: +1
<ajmitch> rather than it being approved & sitting there
<sistpoty> ajmitch: if the last person is crimsun, we are already doing it that way ;)
<ajmitch> good
<LaserJock> we get delayed everytime it goes from  1 queue to another
<ajmitch> but it doesn't always happen
<ajmitch> eg libnss-ldap
<sistpoty> ajmitch: so you propose to also upload stuff that have a motu as assignee?
<ajmitch> yes
<sistpoty> ah
<ajmitch> it reduces delays
<ajmitch> the person approving will already have the source there to look at
<ajmitch> so uploading won't be a burden
<LaserJock> I think as far as MOTU, having the last motu-sru voter upload and having a good system for displaying what's in -proposed
<LaserJock> the biggest delay has been ubuntu-archive
<sistpoty> LaserJock: yes
<LaserJock> but that's not really in our control too much and sounds like it's getting worked on
<sistpoty> LaserJock: FWIW Mithrandir is open to suggestions about reducing the checks ubuntu-archive is doing
<sistpoty> would that be an option?
<LaserJock> I think it would be good
<LaserJock> I think he should basically just check versioning
<LaserJock> and even that shouldn't be too bad if it goes through 3 motu-sru
<sistpoty> +1 here as well, at least for -proposed
<LaserJock> like I said in my email, getting into -proposed should be super easy
<sistpoty> ok... any other opinions what we should improve for sru?
<sistpoty> any objections to LaserJock proposal?
<sistpoty> ok, if noone cries out loud, I'd call that a decision ;)
<LaserJock> ;-)
<ajmitch> good
<ajmitch> NEXT!
<sistpoty> release schedules... me again
<LaserJock> Release schedules (sistpoty)
<ajmitch> can we decide on this now?
<ajmitch> we have feature freeze on the 8th, what does this mean for universe?
<ajmitch> last time we had universe upstream version freeze at beta freeze (iirc)
<sistpoty> ajmitch: imo we should decide now... we're overdue to get them listed on feistyreleaseschedule
<ajmitch> and no new packages at feature freeze
<ajmitch> which meant everything on REVU had to be in by FF
<sistpoty> there was one mail from crimsun with pretty good proposals for dates... I'll look that one up
<LaserJock> ok, dholbach's original proposal was keeping UVF same as Main and FF one week after Main FF
<ajmitch> LaserJock: that can't be right
<ajmitch> UVF is on the same day as feature freeze
<ajmitch> I didn't think we'd have such an early UVF
* ajmitch notes that this is related to the universe QA point
<LaserJock> well, I swear UVF and FF weren't the same day but that's what the wiki page says
<ajmitch> right
<ajmitch> for edgy, we had UVF & no new packages at beta freeze
<LaserJock> March 15th in this case
<ajmitch> we also had an active UVF team that could do approvals
<sistpoty> ah... found the mail: https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-motu/2006-December/001103.html
<ajmitch> which needs to be sorted
<LaserJock> I seriously think it depends on how hard the freeze is going to be
<LaserJock> in Edgy we had to get approval for *every* upload after Beta Freeze didn't we?
<sistpoty> that would slowed us down pretty much, right?
<LaserJock> yeah
<LaserJock> if we are going to have that hard of a freeze I'd like to delay it
<LaserJock> if UVF and FF mean just that I'm fine
<LaserJock> but if UVF/FF effectively cut off any more development I'm not so fine
<sistpoty> well... for UVF it might be good to know what debian is/will be doing... ajmitch?
<ajmitch> sistpoty: hah
<ajmitch> funny
<ajmitch> "etch will release"
<ajmitch> no firm dates yet, I heard rumours of mid-feb
<LaserJock> it seems like etch will be too late for us to re-merge all the new upstreams that are likely to hit unstable
<sistpoty> ajmitch: oh, nice... we should put UVF definitely before the release of etch
<ajmitch> LaserJock: no, we did *not* need approval for every upload after beta freeze, but after RC
<LaserJock> ah RC
<ajmitch> it was only for a week or two
<ajmitch> not 5-6 weeks
<LaserJock> well, it was when I was going to upload some bug fixes I think
<sistpoty> ok, let's go over the unique dates... UVF
<LaserJock> I think we should keep UVF with Main
<sistpoty> is Feb 8 okay, sooner or later?
<sistpoty> anyone else?
<tsmithe> yay! my birthday
* ajmitch doesn't like it, but oh well
<ajmitch> we need to freeze some time
<LaserJock> ajmitch: what you prefer?
<sistpoty> hehe
* tsmithe doesn't have enough experience to have an opinion
<LaserJock> we need to get merges done and out the door
<ajmitch> yes
<ajmitch> it just means approval for everything new after that
<ajmitch> & also clearing up REVU by the 8th
<LaserJock> yes
<LaserJock> no
<LaserJock> that's FF
<sistpoty> ajmitch: nope... UVF != FF
<LaserJock> I propose FF be later
<sistpoty> LaserJock: same here
<LaserJock> UVF same to get merges done and get sort of settled in
<LaserJock> and be consistent with Main
<LaserJock> before etch release
<LaserJock> but once merges are done and out of the way
<LaserJock> hit REVU and get all the new crack in
<ajmitch> it'll give us a few weeks to work on bugs
<geser> UVF = no new upstream version (only with approval) but new revisions don't need an approval?
<sistpoty> geser: only new upstream versions
<LaserJock> yes, "upstream" in this case is upstream upstream
<sistpoty> *g*
<LaserJock> new Debian revisions are ok
<sistpoty> ok... let's vote so that we can move on
<sistpoty> Feb 8?
<sistpoty> +1
<LaserJock> +1
<sistpoty> (please clearly vote with -1 if you are against it)
<geser> for FF or UVF?
<LaserJock> UVF
<sistpoty> geser: UVF
<geser> +1
<sistpoty> 3
<sistpoty> 2
<sistpoty> 1
<sistpoty> ok, accepted
<sistpoty> next: FF
<sistpoty> FF: march 1st? sooner or later?
<ajmitch> sooner
<sistpoty> ajmitch: name a date please ;=
<sistpoty> )
<LaserJock> really?
<ajmitch> feb 22
<ajmitch> UVF+2 weeks
<ajmitch> depends on how much time you want people to spend reviewing vs bug fixing
<sistpoty> if we do one or two revu sprints during that time, might be ok
<LaserJock> yeah
<LaserJock> that's what I was just thinking
<sistpoty> hehe
<ajmitch> and announce it well
<LaserJock> yes
* sistpoty can read minds
<ajmitch> so that people know there's a deadline
* ScottK likes revu sprints.
<bddebian> sistpoty: :)
<sistpoty> ok, votes please for feb 22
<sistpoty> FF
<sistpoty> +1 here
<ajmitch> so you'd have 1 month from now until universe FF
<LaserJock> +1
<ajmitch> +1
<geser> +1
<LaserJock> that gives us 3 weeks after FF before Beta Freeze
<ajmitch> hopefully people don't yell too loudly for us deciding on dates ;)
<sistpoty> ok... 3
<sistpoty> 2
<sistpoty> 1
<ajmitch> LaserJock: you think that's too long?
<sistpoty> done...
<ajmitch> hm ok
<LaserJock> ajmitch: no, I'm thinking we will need time for QA and upgrade testing
<LaserJock> we should try to be pretty locked down *before* Beta
<ajmitch> we've done badly on that in the past
<sistpoty> ajmitch: the dates should have been decided on the list a long time ago... but these things never work without MC ;)
<ajmitch> hence the QA topic coming up :)
<ajmitch> sistpoty: of course
<ajmitch> sistpoty: easier to ask forgiveness than permission ;)
<sistpoty> hehe
<LaserJock> sistpoty: can you please edit the release schedule so we can get those "written in stone"?
<geser> is universe freeze on beta freeze?
<ajmitch> geser: no
<sistpoty> LaserJock: will do after the meeting ;)
<LaserJock> geser: there is no universe freeze
<ajmitch> none decided yet, anyway
<sistpoty> universe freeze used to be FF + UVF combined
<geser> LaserJock: in edgy we had one
<ajmitch> the hard freeze didn't work so well for edgy
<ajmitch> noone uploaded bug fixes
<LaserJock> geser: as sistpoty said Universe Freeze was just FF+UVF
<LaserJock> geser: it was done because the Edgy cycle was short
<geser> so we can upload fixes till feisty release?
<LaserJock> we have no freeze for fixes
<LaserJock> as far as I can see
<ajmitch> until the buildds & upload queue is set to manual
<ajmitch> which is a couple of days before release
<sistpoty> yes...
<sistpoty> any more discussion needed for freeze dates? did I miss s.th.?
<LaserJock> I don't think so, we just needed to rubber stamp it
<sistpoty> ok, then let's move one, agreed?
<LaserJock> can I inject a quick meeting item?
<sistpoty> LaserJock: sure
<LaserJock> At the end of last week I had a talk with kiko (LP dev)
<LaserJock> and he expressed a desire for MOTU to have better representation with LP
<LaserJock> and to work on making sure LP meets the MOTU's needs
<LaserJock> to do this he wanted a MOTU representitive to work with the LP devs
<LaserJock> to help prioritize bugs
<LaserJock> and get feedback from MOTU and turn it into specific and concrete bug reports that they can work on
<ajmitch> (bugs in the launchpad code, not universe bugs)
<LaserJock> yes
<LaserJock> sorry
<sistpoty> sounds great :)
<LaserJock> so, if there aren't any objections, I will take on this role
* ajmitch agrees
<sistpoty> hehe, I just wanted to propose you, LaserJock ;)
<sistpoty> +1
<ajmitch> thanks for volunteering :)
<LaserJock> and will probably be meeting with the LP team (in some fashion) on a weekly basis
<sistpoty> great!
<LaserJock> I've started trawling through Malone bugs
<LaserJock> looking at bugs that seem important to MOTU
<LaserJock> and in fact I found a few of our long standing complaints are long standing bugs in Malone
<bddebian> Yeah :-(
<LaserJock> I will probably be using a special tag to mark certain bugs as MOTU priorities
<Adri2000> the ability to target a bug for a release (for a SRU) in malone, currently only core-devs can do that
<sistpoty> LaserJock: I'll have some things of LP as well... I'll write you a mail
<LaserJock> so, if you have things that need to be fixed in LP (for MOTU work) please let me know
<sistpoty> Adri2000: yep... would be really handy to get that fixed, at least for -sru / motu-swat
<LaserJock> once I get things worked out with the LP guys I'll write an email to -motu explaining things further
<LaserJock> but I really want to thank kiko for reaching out to MOTU
<sistpoty> yay!
<LaserJock> this was a really good idea on his part
<somerville32> :)
<LaserJock> and has commited to giving MOTU what it needs if possible
<bddebian> Do we already have a policy on what really makes good candidates for backports?
<LaserJock> anyway, that's it from me on that topic
<ajmitch> bddebian: add it to the meeting agenda :)
<LaserJock> and I have to run to try to convince 300 undergrads to by goggles from me ;-) I'll be back in ~15 min
<ajmitch> bye :)
<sistpoty> LaserJock: cya motu-lp-coordinator ;)
<bddebian> Heh, later LaserJock
* ajmitch may or may not be around for the qa topic
<sistpoty> ajmitch: how about doing it now?
* ajmitch shrugs
<ajmitch> ok, first up, we suck at QA
<ajmitch> edgy was a shambles
<ajmitch> we need to fix this
<ajmitch> one reason I wanted an early freeze date, so that we have plenty of time for fixing bugs
<ajmitch> I want us to have weekly targets of  things to do (unmet deps, critical bugs, etc), which will require some coordination with the bug squad
<sistpoty> sounds great
<ajmitch> and I also want to try & get a list of bugs that are fixed in debian by new upstream versions that we don't have in ubuntu
<ajmitch> since we find out a few weeks after release about RC bugs that missed out on UVF by a day or so
<ajmitch> we've had the autoimporter shut off for so long that there may be many of these
<ajmitch> any other suggestions for what we need to do to make feisty universe better?
<sistpoty> hm... I even needed to file sync requests for two security bugs
<geser> we need also check for CVE fixed in unstable
<ajmitch> yep
<ajmitch> I can trawl the debian BTS via the LDAP gateway
<ajmitch> but I need to get the version info on the debian bugs
<sistpoty> ajmitch: cool
<ajmitch> so, getting a list of packages that are older than in debian, getting a list of closed bugs, seeing what bugs were fixed in those versions we don't have
<sistpoty> ajmitch: will you take leadership for universe-qa?
<ajmitch> who wants to try & do some weekly task lists (council job, i know)
<ajmitch> sure
<sistpoty> ajmitch: cool, would be awesome
* ajmitch grabs the whip
<sistpoty> hehe
<ajmitch> give me suggestions of what we need to fix
<ajmitch> & how we do testing (upgrade & install testing, etc)
<sistpoty> ajmitch: imo the most important thing is to try to motivate people to follow at least *some* task lists, instead of everybody working on something different
<ajmitch> yep
<sistpoty> which I guess will be the hardest part as well ;)
<ajmitch> heh
<geser> we should also check that packages build on all archs
<ajmitch> that should come under full archive rebuild testing
<sistpoty> ajmitch: will that be done this time?
<ajmitch> I hope so
<ajmitch> I'll find out
<geser> maybe we could ask the same person who did it the last time
<sistpoty> ajmitch: iirc lucas did archive rebuilds for unstable, didn't he? maybe he could set s.th. up for feisty as well? (if we cannot do it officially)
<ajmitch> yes, he did
<ajmitch> imbrandon can probably do some with his new toys
<geser> but this time with enough time for fixes
<sistpoty> great
<sistpoty> we should also try to fix as many unmet deps as possible... many sru's are due to unmet deps
<sistpoty> (with really easy fixes!)
<keescook> I'd love to get involved in some full rebuilds too; I'd like to test some toolchain changes at some point (separate from the feisty release stuff, obviously)
<geser> what about packages that failed building on upload but build now?
<ajmitch> geser: certainly, I was filing a few bugs with fabbione after a full rebuild on sparc
<ajmitch> geser: we get the admins to give them back to the buildds
<ajmitch> keescook: excellent
<sistpoty> ajmitch: is there a procedure to do the give-back? (my pings to lamont don't seem to have any impact)
<ajmitch> sistpoty: lamont hasn't done that for ages
<lamont`> ajmitch: well, I can now... but yeah
<ajmitch> unless he's been helping out recently
<geser> sistpoty: ask Mithrandir for give-backs
<ajmitch> hey lamont` :)
<sistpoty> hi lamont
* lamont fades back into lurker mode
<bddebian> heh
<geser> ajmitch: exists a list of those packages that need a look (because it failed building)?
<ajmitch> geser: there should be, if not, we'll get one
<ajmitch> mails are sent out on build failures now as well
<ajmitch> & we can officially beg the LP guys now
<ajmitch> anything else for QA that we need to cover now?
<persia> I'd like to see removal of all NBS in universe.  Some install and fail for known reasons.
<ajmitch> we also need someone to do minutes of the meeting, please
<pochu> @schedule
<Ubugtu> Schedule for Etc/UTC: Current meeting: MOTU | 24 Jan 12:00: Edubuntu | 25 Jan 16:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 30 Jan 20:00: Technical Board | 31 Jan 20:00: Edubuntu | 31 Jan 22:00: Xubuntu
<sistpoty> I can do the minutes...
<ajmitch> persia: there's probably a lot we could cull from universe because they won't work without a lot of effort
<ajmitch> sistpoty: thanks
<ajmitch> this topic has sort of covered the needed todo lists as well
<sistpoty> ok
<ajmitch> unmet deps, bugs fixed in debian, critical/important bugs on malone, etc
<ajmitch> sistpoty: you want to talk about translations soon?
<sistpoty> erm... anyone got a clue about translations?
<ajmitch> nope
<sistpoty> I actually only set it as topic, since we got a mail on -motu
<ajmitch> we'd need to talk to carlos
* LaserJock is back
<sid> @schedule New_York
<Ubugtu> Schedule for America/New_York: Current meeting: MOTU | 24 Jan 07:00: Edubuntu | 25 Jan 11:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 30 Jan 15:00: Technical Board | 31 Jan 15:00: Edubuntu | 31 Jan 17:00: Xubuntu
<sistpoty> ok, then let's defer the item... anyone volunteering to contact carlos about it?
* sistpoty is a little bit low on time atm :/
<ajmitch> then it's MOTU school
<persia> I lurked on a conversation between seb128 and carlos.  Translations was related to a spec that was rejected, and needs revision (although I can't find the URL now).
<ajmitch> we've been wanting to revive this for awhile, but it takes a reasonable about of time
<ajmitch> persia: https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/language-packs-for-universe ?
<sistpoty> hm... maybe it might make sense to do short (as in very short) lessons prior to a new task (e.g. unmet deps) being the current one
<ajmitch> sistpoty: probably a good idea, and link to the school session on the task lists
<sistpoty> yes
<persia> ajmitch: Yep, that's it.  The rejection was due to the volume and conflicts due to translations upstream vs. translations locally.
<ajmitch> so we just need a call for volunteers for school sessions, and we can go for it ;)
<ajmitch> sistpoty: great, that was the last topic, we can go home ;)
<sistpoty> ajmitch: date of next motu-meeting?
<sistpoty> do we want to decide now or defer to mailing list?
<LaserJock> for what? next meeting?
<sistpoty> LaserJock: yes
<ajmitch> now + 3 weeks, exact date to be decided on list?
<LaserJock> I think we should at least have a proposal right now
<LaserJock> I think it should be the week after the MOTU Council get's finalized
<ajmitch> make it a regular thing
<ajmitch> LaserJock: hah
<ajmitch> haha
<ajmitch> sorry
<sistpoty> +3 weeks sounds good
<LaserJock> I can dream can't I? ;-)
<sistpoty> maybe we should rotate the time to cover different tz's?
<ajmitch> sistpoty: good idea
<ajmitch> sistpoty: a meeting every 3-4 weeks could be a good thing
<sistpoty> ajmitch: agreed
<ajmitch> let people bring up their complaints
<LaserJock> yes
<LaserJock> I think if we have regular reports as well it will help
<ajmitch> yep
<LaserJock> getting people going is what we need right now
<sistpoty> wed, Feb 14?
<sistpoty> let's say 8.00 UTC?
<ajmitch> sistpoty: sure, 1 week before FF
* ajmitch might be a little late for that, but it should work
<sistpoty> ok, anyone against that date?
<ajmitch> I think I'll be finished at practice at about 7:30UTC :)
<ajmitch> ah sorry, that's wednesday, i have nothing on that day
<sistpoty> hehe... and I need to get up early (before noon)
<ajmitch> unless I get back to archery practice :)
<zul> .exut
<LaserJock> well, that's midnight for me, but better than 10:00UTC
<ajmitch> LaserJock: alright
<LaserJock> we should rotate times
<ajmitch> no objections?
<sistpoty> no
<LaserJock> I guess, with as many people as we have
<LaserJock> not from me
<ajmitch> great
<LaserJock> we can hash it out on the ML if it doesn't work for people
<sistpoty> ok, then thanks everyone for the meeting...
<ajmitch> it is decided
<LaserJock> I just think it's better to have a propasal, then work from there
<ajmitch> thanks sistpoty for getting it running
<sistpoty> np
<ajmitch> & LaserJock
<sistpoty> t'was small but very productive imo :)
<LaserJock> sistpoty: thank you a lot for getting things going
<LaserJock> and the REVU Reports are great
<sistpoty> LaserJock: no problem... if I were that good with my thesis as well *g*
<LaserJock> I meant, SRU Reports
<sistpoty> oh, anyone got a clean log? kvirc unfortunately always has the colors in the log (or I'm to stupid to turn it off *g*)
<LaserJock> sistpoty: I hear you dude, I've got a lot of research waiting for me
<ajmitch> yay, I can get back to doing work now
<sistpoty> hehe
* ajmitch wrote a note in the system that he'd taken time to do ubuntu stuff, will have to make up the time tonight :)
<sistpoty> *g*
<ajmitch> back later
<sistpoty> cya ajmitch
#ubuntu-meeting 2007-01-23
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:Ubugtu] : Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 24 Jan 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 25 Jan 16:00 UTC: Ubuntu Development Team | 30 Jan 20:00 UTC: Technical Board | 31 Jan 20:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 31 Jan 22:00 UTC: Xubuntu | 01 Feb 21:00 UTC: Ubuntu Development Team
<pochu> @schedule Madrid
<Ubugtu> Schedule for Europe/Madrid: 24 Jan 13:00: Edubuntu | 25 Jan 17:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 30 Jan 21:00: Technical Board | 31 Jan 21:00: Edubuntu | 31 Jan 23:00: Xubuntu | 01 Feb 22:00: Ubuntu Development Team
#ubuntu-meeting 2007-01-27
<pochu> @schedule madrid
<Ubugtu> Schedule for Europe/Madrid: 30 Jan 21:00: Technical Board | 31 Jan 21:00: Edubuntu | 31 Jan 23:00: Xubuntu | 01 Feb 22:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 07 Feb 13:00: Edubuntu | 08 Feb 17:00: Ubuntu Development Team
<klaidas> @schedule VIlnius
<Ubugtu> Schedule for Europe/Vilnius: 30 Jan 22:00: Technical Board | 31 Jan 22:00: Edubuntu | 01 Feb 00:00: Xubuntu | 01 Feb 23:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 07 Feb 14:00: Edubuntu | 08 Feb 18:00: Ubuntu Development Team
#ubuntu-meeting 2007-01-28
<pochu> @schedule madrid
<Ubugtu> Schedule for Europe/Madrid: 30 Jan 21:00: Technical Board | 31 Jan 21:00: Edubuntu | 31 Jan 23:00: Xubuntu | 01 Feb 22:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 07 Feb 13:00: Edubuntu | 08 Feb 17:00: Ubuntu Development Team
<stgraber> @schedule Zurich
<Ubugtu> Schedule for Europe/Zurich: 30 Jan 21:00: Technical Board | 31 Jan 21:00: Edubuntu | 31 Jan 23:00: Xubuntu | 01 Feb 22:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 07 Feb 13:00: Edubuntu | 08 Feb 17:00: Ubuntu Development Team
#ubuntu-meeting 2008-01-22
<xavieran> wraund
<xavieran> admrltrwn
#ubuntu-meeting 2008-01-23
<stgraber> @schedule Zurich
<ubotu> Schedule for Europe/Zurich: 23 Jan 21:00: Edubuntu meeting | 23 Jan 23:30: Forum Council | 24 Jan 00:00: Kubuntu Developers | 30 Jan 13:00: Edubuntu meeting | 01 Feb 21:00: MOTU
<Hobbsee> @schedule sydney
<ubotu> Schedule for Australia/Sydney: 24 Jan 07:00: Edubuntu meeting | 24 Jan 09:30: Forum Council | 24 Jan 10:00: Kubuntu Developers | 30 Jan 23:00: Edubuntu meeting | 02 Feb 07:00: MOTU
<bmk789> @schedule
<ubotu> Schedule for Etc/UTC: 23 Jan 20:00: Edubuntu meeting | 23 Jan 22:30: Forum Council | 23 Jan 23:00: Kubuntu Developers | 30 Jan 12:00: Edubuntu meeting | 01 Feb 20:00: MOTU
<bmk789> @schedule EST
<ubotu> Schedule for EST: 23 Jan 15:00: Edubuntu meeting | 23 Jan 17:30: Forum Council | 23 Jan 18:00: Kubuntu Developers | 30 Jan 07:00: Edubuntu meeting | 01 Feb 15:00: MOTU
<emgent> @now
<ubotu> Current time in Etc/UTC: January 23 2008, 15:30:03 - Next meeting: Edubuntu meeting in 4 hours 29 minutes
<Contessa> ok ..when is 20.00 UTC ?
<stgraber> @time
<ubotu> Current time in Etc/UTC: January 23 2008, 18:39:17 - Next meeting: Edubuntu meeting in 1 hour 20 minutes
<Contessa> ok
<Contessa> ty
<stgraber> np
<Contessa> I want to make a suggestion ... buts its not easy
<zoom> proceed
<Contessa> put Rosegarden into Edubuntu
<zoom> :)
* ubotu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Current meeting: Edubuntu meeting Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 23 Jan 22:30 UTC: Forum Council | 23 Jan 23:00 UTC: Kubuntu Developers | 30 Jan 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu meeting | 01 Feb 20:00 UTC: MOTU
<RichEd> hi ... who's around for the edubuntu meeting ?
<stgraber> yep
<RichEd> hi stgraber
<stgraber> hi RichEd. How are you ?
<LaserJock> oh, hi
<RichEd> stgraber: well thanks & yourself ?
<RichEd> hi pygi
<stgraber> RichEd: fine, lot of things to do (Looks like it's deadlines time :))
<pygi> heya RichEd
<RichEd> just so you all are aware: "ogra is in London at the distro sprint ... so we'll not have any tech news from him"
<RichEd> so who wants to give us some tech news from their side
<RichEd> stgraber: italc ?
<stgraber> no good news from italc, looks like we have some weird bugs (network related) which are hard to fix
<stgraber> ogra said he'd have a look after the sprint
<stgraber> but I really hate that kind of random/arch-specific bugs ...
<stgraber> so when iTalc works, it works fine and is ready for Edubuntu (I have the ltsp scripts ready here too)
<RichEd> stgraber: well let's hope ogra can help
<stgraber> yes ...
<LaserJock> today I dropped rasmol (chemistry app) from the seeds
<RichEd> do i need to poke him for you, or will you 2 get it sorted ?
<stgraber> I'll poke him once he's back from London
<LaserJock> it seems that dynamic menus is still stalled on figuring out a way to edit the menus
<RichEd> LaserJock: yeah ... ogra said that it could be done manually without a GUI but he said he would not recommend it
<stgraber> LaserJock: Was it about improving alacarte to support them or create a new GUI for it ?
<LaserJock> well, ogra seems to not to want to create a separate GUI
<LaserJock> but I can't see how it'd be possible to do it without doing big changes upstream
<RichEd> so where to from here ? how do we move forward on this
<LaserJock> the problem is that just editing the menu is not enough
<LaserJock> I can call alacarte to edit the menu
<LaserJock> but it's kinda hackish
<LaserJock> and stuff has to be moved around after alacarte is done
<LaserJock> I honestly wonder if this just needs to be done by Gnome
<RichEd> stepping back ... there "is work needed on the front end" ... how do we proceed with that ... not the details
<RichEd> i presume you do not want to tackle it ?
<RichEd> and if not, is there anyone we can get to manage that ? like if it needs to be done by Gnome, how do we go about speaking to "them"
<LaserJock> well
<LaserJock> ogra didn't seem to want to do a front-end
<LaserJock> that it should be handled directly through alacarte
<RichEd> okay ... so who looks after alacarte ?
<LaserJock> well, kinda nobody, but Amaranth is the author
<LaserJock> I'm not sure how much he wants to hack on it anymore
<LaserJock> at least this amount
<LaserJock> it might be better to re-evaluate what are goals are with the dynamic menus and see what users want to get out and what would need to be done
<LaserJock> I've done sort of a "proof-of-concept" that we can do group-driven menus, but I'm not sure if it's really the kind of thing users are looking for
<LaserJock> like, is maybe sabayon a better solution?
<LaserJock> where you're creating whole "profiles" rather than just different menus
<RichEd> does ogra have a good reason to use alacarte ?
<LaserJock> because it's the official gnome menu editor
<LaserJock> it's an existing app
<LaserJock> but it was designed to edit user menus
<RichEd> so do you have any good reason *not* to go with alacarte ?
<LaserJock> well, it's not so much of whether to use alacarte or not
<RichEd> because if that is the official supported way to go, then let's go down that road
<LaserJock> but rather to do everything we need within alacarte
<RichEd> e.g. would Amaranth be able to suggest a resource ?
<LaserJock> or to do a "wrapper" around alacarte
<LaserJock> either way it's gonna be some work
<LaserJock> a wrapper would probably take ogra no time
<LaserJock> but it's still work
<RichEd> LaserJock: the point i am trying to get to is to if we can define what work needs to be done on what, we can then start to look for the resource
<LaserJock> I'll send an email to -devel to start discussion so we can get some feedback
<LaserJock> RichEd: that's pretty much what I'm saying as well
<RichEd> i assume there is some kind of "lose community" around alacarte ... more than just amaranth ?
<RichEd> *loose
<LaserJock> I don't think so
<LaserJock> I could be wrong but I think it's just "there"
<LaserJock> I think Gnome devs will fix bugs, but as far as adding new features I don't know that we'd get much
<LaserJock> but I could be wrong, I haven't asked
<RichEd> well "Gnome devs" may have access to or knowledge of people who *may* want to help
<RichEd> so can we get a request going at least ?
<LaserJock> well, like I said, I think we need to maybe evaluate/discuss if that's what we want to do first
<LaserJock> but I'm thinking that dynamic menuing is best handled upstream as much as possible
<RichEd> okay ... so where upsteam ? who ?
<LaserJock> so a "heah, this is what we'd like to do, anybody interested or got any suggestions?" to Gnome
<LaserJock> broadly Gnome
<RichEd> LaserJock: can't hurt can it ?
<LaserJock> seb128 might have some good idea
<RichEd> a mail and a chat in their channel
<RichEd> so give me a little speclet via email, and i'll ping seb128 in canonical tomorrow
<LaserJock> I've got another little thing but it's art related
<LaserJock> so if you want to move on
<RichEd> anyone else with tech ?
<RichEd> otherwise LaserJock can move onto the art ...
<RichEd> go for it LaserJock
<LaserJock> well
<LaserJock> there is a new project on Launchpad
<LaserJock> called Ubuntoon
<LaserJock> it's goal is to make an Ubuntu-ized version of Gartoon/GNUtoon icons
<LaserJock> https://edge.launchpad.net/ubuntoon
 * RichEd loads ...
<LaserJock> I was able to adapt the Gartoon packaging and got a working package done
<LaserJock> I think it might be worth considering using these icons for Hardy
<stgraber> How complete is the iconset ?
<LaserJock> much more complete than Gartoon
<LaserJock> which is one of the issues I think in the past
<LaserJock> the author is also fairly active and *buntu-centric
<LaserJock> so if we need icons we maybe have somebody to go to
<RichEd> well it would be nice to have a new! look & feel for 8.04 since it is LTS it will be around for a whiler
<RichEd> *while
<LaserJock> long-term Cory Kontros (_MMA_) is looking at "freshening" up the edubuntu artwork packaging
<stgraber> yes especially if it's more complete than the previous one
<LaserJock> he created https://edge.launchpad.net/edubuntu-look
<LaserJock> and made the edubuntu-artwork LP team driver
<LaserJock> so there is a bzr branch that holds the artwork
<LaserJock> I'm not sure the whole thing would be ready for Hardy unless some people want to pitch in as Cory is the Ubuntu Studio lead
<LaserJock> but it's there anyway
<_MMA_> yo :P
<stgraber> hi _MMA_
<LaserJock> ah, there he is now :-)
<LaserJock> _MMA_: I was just telling everybody about edubuntu-look and ubuntoon
<RichEd> LaserJock: so at the risk of being repetitive ;) how do we proceed
<_MMA_> I meant to be here. I watching a dtrace Google vid. :P
<LaserJock> RichEd: well, I'd like to get ogra's opinion, but personally I think we can just finish the package, get it in Universe quickly and then do a MIR to get it into Main if it's Hardy ready
<LaserJock> I think the icons are basically ready, with the exception of maybe wanting to get .pngs (there are only .svgs right now)
 * _MMA_ wants to mention that his effort is casual for now but if help comes can give edubuntu-look and Ubuntoon more love.
<RichEd> and are there people to help complete it in time ?
<_MMA_> LaserJock: Correct. The guy doing all the work wanted to do all that. But, are useful as is.
<stgraber> Did you contact ubuntu-art ?
<stgraber> We had some of them work on some icons/logos for the QA Website with impressive speed and quality
<LaserJock> stgraber: there was a thread about Edubuntu artwork in general
<stgraber> ok
<LaserJock> not yet about the icons in particular
<LaserJock> a couple of Ubuntu-art people joined ~edubuntu-artwork
<LaserJock> which I cleaned out the other day
<stgraber> As RichEd said, LTS will be there for years so we should have the icons turned on as soon as possible (even if the iconset is not complete) so people can have a look and give us some feedback
<LaserJock> right
<RichEd> LaserJock: can we get a work plan set up to help get it done in time ?
<LaserJock> well, I think getting the icons uploaded to Universe ASAP would be good
<LaserJock> RichEd: yeah
<LaserJock> let me write some emails to -devel, but I *want* people to respond :-)
<_MMA_> Besides Jordan, who has built and used 'em?
<LaserJock> nobody that I know
<LaserJock> of
<stgraber> LaserJock: yes, then once the package is in universe we can ask for feedback (edubuntu-users ?), then if it gets good feedback do the MIR and turn it on by default
<LaserJock> I can throw up some quick package on a ~ubuntu-artwork PPA
<_MMA_> stgraber: The set is pretty complete. Its just that all SVG sets can take a little more to render the icons.
<_MMA_> So PNGs are used also.
<LaserJock> I think we can get pngs before Hardy is out though
<_MMA_> Thats what upstream wants to add.
<_MMA_> LaserJock: Its not just a simple matter of converting the SVGs to PNG. Some icons dont look correct when scaled down very small.
<stgraber> _MMA_: can't the .png just be generated from the .svg when building the package ?
<_MMA_> 22x22 and below usually.
<stgraber> hehe, you answered the second before I posted the question :)
<LaserJock> _MMA_: yeah, but we should be able to get it mostly done by Hardy is out no?
<_MMA_> Well I havnt received a email back from upstream yet. I emailed him after we set up the Project.
<_MMA_> The set as is needs testing.
<_MMA_> He told me there are some Evolution issues.
<LaserJock> well
<_MMA_> Also something tied to needed .pngs.
<LaserJock> in any case, first step is to get it into Universe
<_MMA_> *needing.
<LaserJock> let people test it out
<LaserJock> then we can decide whether default or not
<_MMA_> Honestly I dont feel its ready for all that.
<stgraber> I can give it a try as soon as it's in universe or a clean PPA
<stgraber> ok, then the group's PPA
<_MMA_> I wouldnt put it in Universe till the pngs are there.
<LaserJock> _MMA_: ok, well how about putting a package up on ~edubuntu-artwork PPA?
<_MMA_> Awesome.
<stgraber> LaserJock: when is the universe new package freeze ? (same time as FF ?)
<soren> stgraber: Yes.
<LaserJock> stgraber: yep
<_MMA_> LaserJock: If you can rename your branch to "ubuntu" and set the driver to the edubuntu-art team that would be great. Or another appropriate team.
<LaserJock> _MMA_: did you push that renaming of that python icon?
<LaserJock> anyway, that's some artwork stuff
<_MMA_> I believe so. Lemmie look.
<LaserJock> I'll get a package up to PPA and send an email
<LaserJock> RichEd: moving on?
<RichEd> yep ...
<RichEd> websites ?
<RichEd> pips1 ?
<RichEd> no highvoltage tonight
<RichEd> looks like no pips1 either :( last seen in edubuntu saying:
<RichEd> <RichEd> == edubuntu meeting in #ubuntu-meeting in 3 mins ===
<RichEd> <pygi> oh noes :P
<RichEd> oops that was pygi not pips1 :/
<pygi> what's up with me? :)
<RichEd> got you mixed up with pips1 ;)
<soren> Er... There's a server team meeting in -21 seconds.
<LaserJock> I think I still might try building an HTML version of the Handbook that we can put up on edubuntu.org
<soren> (read: now)
<RichEd> okay ... we are more or less done
<LaserJock> soren: pffft Server Team  ;-)
<soren> And there seems to be a Forum Council meeting in half an hour, so I'm afraid we can't just wait for you guys to finish.
 * soren kicks LaserJock 
<soren> In a nice way, of course :)
 * pygi makes soren and LaserJock behave
<RichEd> LaserJock / stgraber I'll lurk in @edubuntu for 10 mins if you have more stuff to chat about
<RichEd> thanks all from edubuntu
 * LaserJock tells soren to take a card
 * RichEd makes way for the server team
<soren> LaserJock: Talking!
 * soren hands LaserJock a card
 * ajmitch waves at soren 
<sommer> hey all
<zul> now serving number 22
 * nijaba wonders if that is a penalty card
<pips1> RichEd: pong
<soren> Hey, ajmitch.
<dendrobates> hey
<ivoks> looks like new meeting time is great... all the good people are here
<zul> hi ajmitch
 * mathiaz waves 
<zul> hey dendrobates
<keescook> whee
 * zul dodges toys thrown at him
<mathiaz> all right - let's get started then
<mathiaz> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 21:04. The chair is mathiaz.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
 * jdstrand waves
<mathiaz> Today's agenda is... minimal
<mathiaz> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/Meeting
<mathiaz> anyone wants to add something to the agenda ?
<nealmcb> good thing - I have to leave in 25 minutes
<nealmcb> :-)
<dendrobates> can we get an update on ruby?
<dendrobates> if anyone is here, who's working on  it.
<mathiaz> dendrobates: I don't think that the people who are working on it are around
<pygi> it's always like that :P
<leonel> PostgreSQL  maybe released before march  and  hardy feature freeze will be on  feb 14   is there any chance to include  PostgreSQL 8.3  once is released ??
<soren> We plan to switch even before then.
<mathiaz> leonel: yes - pitti has done it today
<jdstrand> it's in debian sid
<soren> And by "switch" we mean move 8.2 to universe and 8.3 to main.
<soren> and make the postgresql metapackage depend on 8.3.
<leonel> Great !
<soren> If it turns out that there are major issues (we doubt it, but you never know), we'll switch back.
<soren> ..but this way we get a lot of testing done, so I think it's all good.
<jdstrand> apparently there has already been a long beta/rc cycle
<leonel> if there's any thing to test  just let me know
<jdstrand> so hopefully not too much
<jdstrand> uh-- in terms of bugs, not testing ;)
<mathiaz> leonel: the new package should hit the repository in the next days
<leonel> mathiaz: the  RC2 ?
<nealmcb> http://developer.postgresql.org/pgdocs/postgres/release-8-3.html
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://developer.postgresql.org/pgdocs/postgres/release-8-3.html
<jdstrand> rc2 yes
<jdstrand> 8.3~rc2-1
<jdstrand> we'll merge from sid
<mathiaz> so let's move on
<mathiaz> [TOPIC] Review ACTION points from previous meeting.
<MootBot> New Topic:  Review ACTION points from previous meeting.
<mathiaz> The previous minutes can logs can be found here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/Server/20080116
<mathiaz> sommer: nijaba: quick status about JeOS ?
<nijaba> article was publihed on the 18th
<mathiaz> will the tutorial be in the server guide ?
<nijaba> http://www.linux-mag.com/id/4829
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://www.linux-mag.com/id/4829
<sommer> congrats on the article
<zul> w00t
<sommer> that was cool to see it published
<nijaba> soren, 3mo from now, we can do whatever we want with it
<nijaba> s/soren/so
<mathiaz> nijaba: hum-- so that's after hardy is released
<mathiaz> nijaba: well - it's one day before the release
<nijaba> soren, that should be fine then
<sommer> I love it when a plan comes together :)
<mathiaz> nijaba: I don't know as it will be publicly available before
 * nijaba hates autocomplete
<nijaba> mathiaz: on the we or on file in the cd ?
<mathiaz> nijaba: OTOH the server guide won't be on the help.ubuntu.com before that.
<mathiaz> nijaba: both
<nijaba> what counts is web publication, I think
<mathiaz> nijaba: it may be on doc.ubuntu.com, which may present the developpement version of the documentation
<mathiaz> nijaba: well - it'd be in a bzr tree
<sommer> we can always pull it out of the guide and replace it later
<nijaba> bzr is fine
<mathiaz> sommer: that has to be done before documentation freeze
<mathiaz> sommer: and then it cannot be added just one day before release
<nijaba> let's put it there...  we'll see ig the editor complains
<sommer> mathiaz: gotcha, may be easier to simply remove the html files after the site is built then
<mathiaz> we could always say that it's a developpement version and it hasn't a widespread usage
 * nealmcb nods
<mathiaz> soren: can you post the link to your blog post about virtualization ?
<soren> http://warma.dk/blog/article/86/
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://warma.dk/blog/article/86/
<dendrobates> I have also asked soren to do a uwn interview about kvm.
<boredandblogging> wohoo!
<boredandblogging> sorry
<mathiaz> soren: so you've opted for a wiki page on w.u.c ?
<dendrobates> boredandblogging: can you contact soren about it?
<boredandblogging> dendrobates: sure
<soren> mathiaz: Ask apposed to?
<soren> mathiaz: Er... "As opposed to?"
<nealmcb> soren: great cake - such a wife!  http://www.warma.dk/blog/article/85/
<soren> nealmcb: It tasted even more awesome than it looked :)
<mathiaz> [ACTION] soren will do an uwn interview about virtualization. boredandblogging will get in touch with soren about it.
<MootBot> ACTION received:  soren will do an uwn interview about virtualization. boredandblogging will get in touch with soren about it.
<nealmcb> Mr Hansen, I'm sorry to inform you that Canonical is forced to let you go due to trademark infringement....
<soren> O_O
<mathiaz> soren: I thought you would actually document everything in your blog post.
<nijaba> nealmcb: that was a piece of cake
<soren> mathiaz: Oh. No, no.
<mathiaz> soren: anyway - it's great to have something.
<soren> mathiaz: That way *I*'d have to do all the work.
<soren> Now I can blame everyone else for not improving it.
 * sommer has started a virtualization section
<mathiaz> sommer: how do you plan to integrate that in the server guide ?
<sommer> mathiaz: good question, still working on that part
<nijaba> I think we need ubuntu-vm-builder document in there
<sommer> I don't have hardware to support kvm so I was going to start with qemu
<nealmcb> sommer: it will be good to have it tested both ways
<sommer> and document that using the virt-manager etc
<sommer> nealmcb: sure, if others can submit docs on specifics to kvm, that'd be awesome
<mathiaz> nijaba: that would be based on your JeOS tutorial ?
<nealmcb> nijaba: indeed!
<nijaba> the tuto would have to be modified a bit, I think
<nijaba> but first we need to finish this script
<nealmcb> has a name been decided for the script?
<mathiaz> So IIUC the virtualization section in the server guide would be based on the KvmVirtManagerEtc wiki page and the JeOS tutorial ?
<nijaba> and soren just gave me the missing part so that I can finish the partioning I want to put there
 * nealmcb wonders if it should really be in python, but is feeling lazy....
<nijaba> why?  bash is good enough...
<soren> bash is ok. It just needs to cleaned up. A lot.
<zul> with python you can probably hook in the libvirt stuff to make it easier
<nealmcb> it would be easier to hook into other stuff (and vice versa) in python
<soren> zul: that's *real* easy from bash as well.
<zul> soren: :)
<soren> zul: virsh provides almost all the same hooks as the python bindings.
<mathiaz> nealmcb: any news about the factoid about ebox ?
<zul> yeppers...
<nealmcb> mathiaz: that was done last week
<nealmcb> an hour after the meeting
<nealmcb> !ebox
<ubotu> ebox is a web-based GUI interface for administering a server. It is designed to work with Ubuntu/Debian style configuration management. See the plans for Hardy at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/EboxSpec
<mathiaz> nealmcb: great ! :)
<nealmcb> !webmin
<ubotu> webmin is no longer supported in Debian and Ubuntu. It is not compatible with the way that Ubuntu packages handle configuration files, and is likely to cause unexpected issues with your system. See !ebox instead.
<nealmcb> and I updated the roadmap then also
 * nijaba hugs nealmcb
<nealmcb> if folks run across other FAQs that we want factoids for, let me know
<nealmcb> faqtoids?  sounds ugly...
<nealmcb> nijaba: :-)
<sommer> heh, kind of like those old dominos commercials
<sommer> I think that was "the noid"
<nealmcb> As long as I do the hard work on the factoids, I expect you all to do that simple virtualization and documentation stuff :-)
<mathiaz> Is there anything else related to last week's meeting ?
 * nealmcb has to run now to the dentist :-)
<sommer> heard back about the Apache SSL thing
<zul> just the xen roadmap addition but i havent got a cahance yet
<sommer> they're going to wait for SNI support
<mathiaz> [ACTION] zul will add a section in the Roadmap to Xen in hardy.
<MootBot> ACTION received:  zul will add a section in the Roadmap to Xen in hardy.
<mathiaz> [TOPIC] Review each section of the ServerTeam/Roadmap.
<MootBot> New Topic:  Review each section of the ServerTeam/Roadmap.
<mathiaz> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/Roadmap
<mathiaz> sommer: so what's the state of Apache SSL ?
<mathiaz> sommer: there are two things - SNI support and default SSL Configuration
<nijaba> I just put a spec for SNI support
<sommer> http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=267477
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=267477
<ubotu> Debian bug 267477 in apache2 "ssl: some easy way to set up an ssl server (as apache-ssl package in apache 1)" [Important,Open]
<sommer> the reply was they wanted to wait for SSL Server Name Indication support
 * nijaba just realized that he opened a duplicate bug in debian...
<sommer> I think there was a recent bug about backporting the features as well, but I don't have a link
<mathiaz> sommer: yes - there's a bug in LP about SNI support
<mathiaz> sommer: It's linked to an upstream bug in apache where there is a patch to enable SNI for apache2.2.
<sommer> mathiaz: gotcha, so are we going to wait for SNI as well, or patch our own?
<mathiaz> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/apache2/+bug/184131
<ubotu> Launchpad bug 184131 in apache2 "Apache 2.2 SNI support" [Unknown,Confirmed]
<mathiaz> sommer: I'd have a look at the patch attached to the upstream bug and check if we can integrate it in our package.
<mathiaz> http://issues.apache.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=34607
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://issues.apache.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=34607
<mathiaz> it seems that it has already been applied to the 2.4 branch.
<sommer> mathiaz: cool
<mathiaz> sommer: if it isn't a too invasive patch, it'd be great.
<mathiaz> sommer: the earlier we get it into hardy, the more testing can be done
<sommer> anything I can help with?
 * sommer is a daily user of apache
<mathiaz> one option would be to provide an apache2.2 package in a PPA with the SNI patch applied
<mathiaz> and ask users to test it with different browsers
<sommer> cool, that would have to be done by the 14th, correct?
<mathiaz> sommer: yes.
<dendrobates> mathiaz: it is worth trying.
<sommer> gotcha
<dendrobates> but we need a way defined for users to report results.
<zul> wiki
<mathiaz> dendrobates: I'd send an email on ubuntu-server and ask people to install it and test it.
<sommer> might not want to wait on me for that, I'm not sure how much time I can commit... plus still learning packaging
<mathiaz> dendrobates: do you think about having a more extensive test coverage (such as which browser, platform) have been tested ?
<dendrobates> mathiaz: that seems like a good idea
<mathiaz> dendrobates: I can upload an apache2 package to my PPA, and setup a wiki page to track the testing.
<sommer> mathiaz: I have time to help test
<dendrobates> mathiaz: ok
<mathiaz> sommer: great !
<nijaba> ivoks: are you still planning on doing the MIR for drdb?
<ivoks> nijaba: i wanted to disccus that...
<mathiaz> [ACTION] mathiaz will upload an apache2 package with SNI enabled to his PPA and organise the test plan.
<MootBot> ACTION received:  mathiaz will upload an apache2 package with SNI enabled to his PPA and organise the test plan.
<ivoks> nijaba: it requires patching the kernel, and the upstream isn't very happy with drbd's patches for kernel
<mathiaz> So let's move on to the MIR process
<mathiaz> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerPackageReview
<ivoks> nijaba: bottom line; there's an effort to move drbd into vanilla kernel, and i doubt we will see drbd in vanilla kernel before 2.6.28
<nijaba> ivoks: so that makes a good case for rejecting it
<ivoks> nijaba: i'm afraid so, yes...
<zul> ivoks: is there a kernel patch for 2.6.24?
<mathiaz> ivoks: can you update the wiki page, specify the reason for the rejection ?
<ivoks> zul: there is
<ivoks> zul: but according to lkml, there's some work to be done before patch is accepted
<nijaba> OTOH, I feel quite surprised by bacula and rsnapshot rejection by fabio
<zul> if its really important we can try to get it included into linux-ubuntu-modules and wait for upsream
<nijaba> could someone have another look at these 2 packages?
<mathiaz> ivoks: does the patch require modification to core parts of the kernel ?
<ivoks> mathiaz: iirc, not, it's just an addition
<ivoks> mathiaz: it would be great to have it... suse includes drbd
<mathiaz> ivoks: so it would just go in u-module
<mathiaz> zul, soren: how easy it is to get something in ubuntu-modules ?
<zul> the i can get the url and submit a patch to the kernel team then
<zul> mathiaz: pretty easy ive done it a couple of times before
<ivoks> zul: then, i'll come up with a patch, and you could work from there?
<zul> ivoks: sure just send me a url or something
<ivoks> zul: ok, tomorrow ;)
<mathiaz> zul: so even if lkml is not so happy with the state of the patch, the kernel team doesn't care so much ?
<mathiaz> [ACTION] ivoks will send a link to the zul for the drbd patch.
<MootBot> ACTION received:  ivoks will send a link to the zul for the drbd patch.
<zul> well they do care but if its an external module then its easier to get intclude (ie: driver)
<zul> ill talk to BenC
<zul> if its a large patch then its less likely
<mathiaz> [ACTION] zul will contact BenC to see if the drbd module could be included in ubuntu-modules.
<MootBot> ACTION received:  zul will contact BenC to see if the drbd module could be included in ubuntu-modules.
<mathiaz> There were a couple of package that were rejected (bacula, rsnapshot, arpwatch) by fabio.
<mathiaz> What should we do about them
<mathiaz> ?
<ivoks> i'm surprised for bacula rejection :)
<dendrobates> zul: will you review those packages to see if you agree with fabio?
<nijaba> could someon have a second look at that?
<mathiaz> ivoks: it's not a rejection by the MIR team, but fabio that said it wasn't worth
<ivoks> i know...
<zul> dendrobates: sure
<mathiaz> ivoks: but fabio has a good understanding of the procedure, so the issues he raised will probably be raised by the MIR review team
<sommer> by unmaintained upstream that's debian correct? not the individual project?
<zul> both..
<mathiaz> [ACTION] zul will look into the rejected MIR (bacula, rsnapshot, arpwatch)
<sommer> gotcha
<MootBot> ACTION received:  zul will look into the rejected MIR (bacula, rsnapshot, arpwatch)
<zul> sommer: for example mtx the package was 4 years old in universe
<zul> until recently
<mathiaz> there are 6 packages left that haven't a MIR written
<zul> ill go through them as well
<mathiaz> [ACTION] zul will go through the rest of the packages on the ServerPackageReview list.
<MootBot> ACTION received:  zul will go through the rest of the packages on the ServerPackageReview list.
<mathiaz> dendrobates: could you give a quick update about the Windows auth integration ?
<dendrobates> mathiaz: yes
<dendrobates> the gui has recently been changed to gtk, it is being repackaged now and will be in universe next week.
<dendrobates> There has been a bit more work involved than I origianlly hoped.
<mathiaz> Is there any plan for testing ?
<dendrobates> still no manpages though.
<dendrobates> centeris is running a test suite  currently, and when it is uploaded I will send a message to the mailing list asking for testing.
<mathiaz> dendrobates: great !
<mathiaz> dendrobates: what's the state of the ldap client integration ?
<dendrobates> it has not been worked on because Jerry has been busy with likewise problems.
<dendrobates> but, we are planning a face to face to try to get it done.
<dendrobates> as well as other things.
<mathiaz> on the server front, openldap 2.4 should be uploaded to debian real soon now.
<dendrobates> mathiaz: already done
<mathiaz> once it has been uploaded, all the packages that depend on it need to be rebuilt
<dendrobates> migration has been started
<mathiaz> dendrobates: great. steve is working on getting the package rebuilt ?
<soren> http://packages.ubuntu.com/hardy/net/slapd http://packages.debian.org/source/sid/openldap2.3
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://packages.ubuntu.com/hardy/net/slapd http://packages.debian.org/source/sid/openldap2.3
<dendrobates> most is already done.
<soren> It says 2.3, but it *is* 2.4.
<soren> It makes transitioning loads easier.
<zul> can we get the limks updated on the roadmap dor bug triaging  ldap then?
<zul> when it is available of course
<mathiaz> zul: well - it still points to openldap2.2.
<soren> mathiaz: Eh? What does?
<mathiaz> zul: may be we should have list of links for all the openldap packages
<mathiaz> soren: on the roadmap
<zul> sure
<mathiaz> soren: under the triager corner.
<soren> I need links so I can click on them.
<ivoks> :)
<mathiaz> soren: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/Roadmap#head-f98ade0ed42e24e574acc3b0f89d377b25d2be4b
<soren> Thanks.
 * nijaba think that playing with is phone is what he really wants
<soren> I'll update the link.
<mathiaz> [ACTION] soren to update the links to the openldap bugs queries.
<MootBot> ACTION received:  soren to update the links to the openldap bugs queries.
<soren> Done.
<mathiaz> soren: did you think about LTS upgrade tracking ?
<soren> Yes.
<soren> That's it.
<mathiaz> soren: did your thought get translated into a wiki page ?
<dendrobates> soren: talk to mvo to sync with his lts upgrade work.
<soren> mathiaz: I didn't check :)
<mathiaz> soren: hum.. you may check w.u.c - strange things happen there sometime ;)
<soren> mathiaz: So they say :)
<soren> mathiaz: I'll talk to mvo tomorrow and we'll hash something out.
<mathiaz> [ACTION] soren will share his ideas about LTS upgrade tracking with mvo
<MootBot> ACTION received:  soren will share his ideas about LTS upgrade tracking with mvo
<dendrobates> soren: tell us the state of KVM
<soren> It works, bitches.
<dendrobates> I concur
<sommer> lol
<soren> I've just updated it to kvm 60 (which got released today).
<soren> And got the virtio stuff into the kernel which will be uploaded tomorrow.
<soren> This means that all I/O inside kvm will be massively faster.
<mathiaz> soren: did you send an email on ubuntu-server about getting kvm tested ?
<dendrobates> can we get the interview in uwn first?
<soren> libvirt, virtmanager and virtinst will need to support this cleverly as well. I've done most of libvirt for it already, and will continue upwards in the stack afterwards.
<dendrobates> and then send to the list later that day?
<soren> mathiaz: Er... Crap. No. I blogged, but no e-mail to the list.
<mathiaz> dendrobates: that's a better idea actually - the coverage should be bigger.
<mathiaz> soren: any news on the JeOS front ?
<soren> Since last meeting?
<soren> Er...
<soren> Yeah, I think I fixed lvm2 support in the installer.
<soren> \o/ Go me.
 * nijaba hugs soren for this :)
<soren> Well... All the virtio stuff counts as Jeos advancements as well, i guess.
<zul> you are my hero ;)
<ubuntugeek> soren: any plans on putting the lsi scsi driver into jeos so its usable on vmware esx?
<soren> I'm 62.3% sure it's already there.
 * soren checks
<ubuntugeek> In the 7.10 version?
<soren> Er.. No.
<ubuntugeek> 8.04?
<soren> Yes.
<soren> Er... and no :)
<ubuntugeek> hrm.. :)
<soren> Hrm... I told someone to do that ages ago.
<soren> Added to my todo list.
<ubuntugeek> Here is the thing, making jeos work in vmware server is great. But the lsi scsi support is vital to vmware esx
<ubuntugeek> good to hear it!
<dendrobates> mathiaz: make that an action
<mathiaz> [ACTION] soren will follow up on getting lsi scsi support in JeOS
<MootBot> ACTION received:  soren will follow up on getting lsi scsi support in JeOS
<mathiaz> ivoks: what the state of dovecot/postfix/sasl integration ?
<ivoks> well, it's stalled
<ivoks> i prepared everything for tasksel, but now it turns out that it could be better to do it inside of packages
<mathiaz> ivoks: did you talk with lamont after the replies you've received on ubuntu-devel ?
<ivoks> no, not yet
 * lamont is sorta-here
<ivoks> lamont: then fire up :)
<lamont> kinda heads down for another 15 min or so.... maybe after meeting?
<mathiaz> yop - better that way
<ivoks> lamont: could you just reply to messages about postfix/dovecot on ubuntu-server mailing list?
<mathiaz> we've got 5 mns left
<mathiaz> Anything else to add ?
<dendrobates> soren:  have you about how to present kvm in the installer
<zul> no
<dendrobates> thought
<soren> dendrobates: I'm hoping to not have to deal with it at all.
<soren> dendrobates: In the sense that everything should automagically Just Work[tm].
<mathiaz> dendrobates: do you suggest to add a task to tasksel ?
<soren> dendrobates: So far, that plans is looking to come together.
<zul> good luck with that [tm]
<soren> :)
<dendrobates> how about a tasksel for kvm
<soren> I might add a "Virtualisation node" task or something like that.
<mathiaz> ok - time is running out.
<soren> which includes libvirt-bin and all that jazz.
<mathiaz> [TOPIC] Agree on next meeting date and time.
<MootBot> New Topic:  Agree on next meeting date and time.
<mathiaz> Everyone is fine with the new schedule ?
<mathiaz> same time, same place, next week ?
<sommer> I like it
<nijaba> yeah
<mathiaz> well - sold then !
<mathiaz> see ya next week. Thank you all for joining
<nijaba> thanks for charing mathiaz
<jdstrand> bye!
<dendrobates> byeee
<sommer> later all
<jdstrand> thanks mathiaz :)
<mathiaz> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 22:29.
<zul> toodles
<vorian> hey there k-mandla
<PriceChild> What impeccable timing 8-)
<ubuntugeek> howdu fella's
<k-mandla> hello everybody! my first meeting :D
* ubotu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Current meeting: Forum Council Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 23 Jan 23:00 UTC: Kubuntu Developers | 30 Jan 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu meeting | 01 Feb 20:00 UTC: MOTU
<xavieran> :)
<PriceChild> k-mandla, still no joy on the "real" irc connection?
<forumsmatthew> hello!
<k-mandla> no, it's got to be my isp or proprietary router. rsync, etc. don't work either. no biggie
<forumsmatthew> ubuntugeek, it looks like Mike won't be able to make it
<forumsmatthew> heard anything about Kiwi?
<ubuntugeek> forumsmatthew: yeah I seen that
<PriceChild> k-mandla, ssh?
<ubuntugeek> forumsmatthew: Nope it might just be us :)
<vorian> and jdong is practicing for the Olympics
<forumsmatthew> could be worse
<forumsmatthew> decisions go faster without all that talking
<forumsmatthew> :)
<xavieran> welcome back dn
<k-mandla> PriceChild, I haven't tried that yet, but it never gets in the way too much, so i don't fiddle with it much
<vorian> ok, here is the glorious agenda
<vorian> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ForumCouncilAgenda
<ubuntugeek> Light agenda :)
<vorian> lol
<k-mandla> :D
<forumsmatthew> wow, it's blank
<forumsmatthew> any thing you want to bring up ubuntugeek
<xavieran> xD
<vorian> there needs to be some finalization on tutorials
<vorian> which is why k-mandla is here i believe
<ubuntugeek> Not much really we need to look at the stuff kmandla posted in the staff area about tutorials
<k-mandla> yeah, i couldn't edit it for my stuff
<ubuntugeek> i'll post it here
<forumsmatthew> that is why we need you, vorian
<forumsmatthew> thx
<ubuntugeek>    1. Tutorials must follow the Code of Conduct.
<ubuntugeek>    2. Downloadable scripts or debs are not tutorials.
<ubuntugeek>    3. Tutorials should be written to the level of a complete Linux newcomer.
<ubuntugeek>    4. Tutorials should be formatted for ease of reading, including code boxes, step-by-step instructions and screenshots where appropriate.
<ubuntugeek>    5. A link to an offsite tutorial or blog post is not a tutorial.
<ubuntugeek>    6. Tutorials must be written in clear, proper English.
<ubuntugeek>    7. Tutorials must be complete.
<ubuntugeek>    8. Tutorials may not be copy-and-pasted from outside sources.
<ubuntugeek>    9. Tutorials must offer a way of reverting the changes.
<ubuntugeek>   10. Authors must support their tutorials.
<ubuntugeek>   11. Tutorials must explain how they were tested, and under what conditions.
<ubuntugeek>   12. Tutorials must include outside references or credit outside sources, when appropriate.
<k-mandla> i can expand upon those when theyre posted to the forum
<ubuntugeek> I think its a pretty good start
<forumsmatthew> I think that is great! I prefer having short, easy to read and understand rules
<forumsmatthew> you can expand in a follow up post
<k-mandla> ithought examples might be a good idea, just to fully illustrate and maybe help if there's any problems later
<k-mandla> forumsmatthew, that's true
<forumsmatthew> that's a good idea, k-mandla
<ubuntugeek> Yeah I agree
<forumsmatthew> how would you like to do this? sticky post at the top of the tutorial forum?
<vorian> +1
<k-mandla> +1
<ubuntugeek> Yeah +1
<vorian> perfecto :)
<HymnToLife> Note to self: check the meetings calendar more often
<forumsmatthew> greetings, HymnToLife
<HymnToLife> hi :)
<k-mandla> hi! :)
<ubuntugeek> hi
<xavieran> welcome back HymnToLife
<xavieran> ;)
<forumsmatthew> okay, k-mandla, will you take the lead on this? just let us know in the staff forum as things get going and when/if/how you wnat/need help
<forumsmatthew> wnat==want
<k-mandla> sure. i'm on it.
<k-mandla> should be easy. i'll do it today.
<ubuntugeek> good deal thanks kmandla
<forumsmatthew> great. thank you!
<vorian> awesome k-mandla :)
<k-mandla> no problem
<ubuntugeek> vorian: lets make sure to add to the next meeting what Mike found out about the FC approving members
<vorian> okay ubuntugeek
<forumsmatthew> and maybe a note to yourself to remind him about a week before that meeting
<ubuntugeek> :) heh
<forumsmatthew> he's had a lot on his mind lately
<vorian> i think its a CC matter at the time being
<vorian> they are going to break up the membership process into teams
<forumsmatthew> oic
<forumsmatthew> cool
<forumsmatthew> ubuntugeek, did you want to talk about potential staff additions here?
<forumsmatthew> or was our conversation earlier adequate
<forumsmatthew> in the forums
<ubuntugeek> We can sure
<forumsmatthew> these are the people that were mentioned http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=667654
<vorian> here is the compiled list
<vorian> http://ubuntuforums.org/showpost.php?p=4192946&postcount=24
<ubuntugeek> I think they are all good IMO.. I was going to start contacting people this week.
<forumsmatthew> This one hasn't been active for 3 weeks, so we can probably take his name out of contention http://ubuntuforums.org/member.php?u=48823
<forumsmatthew> otherwise, I think they all look very promising
<ubuntugeek> Good deal!
<forumsmatthew> do you want help with contacting people?
<k-mandla> oops!
<k-mandla> sorry
<xavieran> welcome back k-mandla
<forumsmatthew> k-mandla, lol
<k-mandla> :D
<vorian> i numbered each candidate on this post
<vorian> http://ubuntuforums.org/showpost.php?p=4192946&postcount=24
<vorian> just now
<ubuntugeek> Sure,   i'll take 1-5 you take 6-11
<vorian> nevermind
<vorian> :)
<ubuntugeek> since vorian was nice enough to number it :)
<forumsmatthew> ubuntugeek, great. Will do.
<ubuntugeek> good deal!
<ubuntugeek> thanks
<vorian> excellent
<PriceChild> What are you taking them for? You're contacting them all?!
<forumsmatthew> Oh, except for number 9, who I just mentioned hasn't been active for a while...I'll reconsider if that changes shortly
<vorian> PriceChild: we are facing an LTS :P
<forumsmatthew> PC: yep
<vorian> and KDE4
<vorian> we'll need all the help we can get :P
<forumsmatthew> and we have a lot of mods that aren't as active as they used to be
<ubuntugeek> :)
<PriceChild> Hehe I'm getting scared about #ubuntu :D
<ubuntugeek> 2008 will only bring more growth to the forums we need to staff up
<forumsmatthew> and some will likely say, "no, but thank you"
<ubuntugeek> Yep
<forumsmatthew> Get ready to start seeing "welcome to <staff member>" threads in the staff forum
<ubuntugeek> :)
<vorian> hehe
<ubuntugeek> Anyone have anything else to add?
<forumsmatthew> I don't have anything
<ubuntugeek> I hope to start testing vb 3.7 very soon.
<vorian> great jorb on the thank you system u-g
<forumsmatthew> unless you want to reconsider forum software again
<PriceChild> ubuntugeek, any news on its release?
<ubuntugeek> vorian: :) I need to finish that up.
<forumsmatthew> Doh! I type too slow sometimes
<forumsmatthew> seriously, the thank you think rocks!
<forumsmatthew> think==thing
<k-mandla> +1
<ubuntugeek> :)
<k-mandla> i had my doubts but it's actually quite nice
<ubuntugeek> I am pretty excited about some of the new stuff in vb3.7
<forumsmatthew> if there's nothing else, we can give the Kubuntu guys the channel a few minutes early
<ubuntugeek> I think the social groups will be a really cool thing
<ubuntugeek> I am all set for t his month..
<forumsmatthew> that will be interesting
<forumsmatthew> I"m looking forward to all the new toys in 3.7
<PriceChild> I'm looking forward to the inline spam bits.
<ubuntugeek> yep for sure !
<ubuntugeek> I'll setup a test forum this week for us to start testing
<forumsmatthew> sweet!
<vorian> shall we set a date for the next meeting?
<ubuntugeek> Yes
<forumsmatthew> this time works well for me
<ubuntugeek> Next month same time?
<vorian> sure
<vorian> Feb 20th?
<forumsmatthew> I have some local stuff going on Feb 19-21 and won't be available
<forumsmatthew> the rest of the month looks good
<vorian> feb 13th
<ubuntugeek> 13th works
<forumsmatthew> good for me
<vorian> i'll send the warning :)
<forumsmatthew> thank you
<vorian> no problemo
<vorian> any other topics?
<forumsmatthew> none here
<ubuntugeek> nope
<vorian> great
<ubuntugeek> thanks all!
<vorian> thanks everyone
<forumsmatthew> thank you!
<k-mandla> :D
<vorian> k-mandla rocks!
<k-mandla> cya!
<mhb> the time has come
 * apachelogger quits kwrite
<kwwii> hi
<apachelogger> hey kwwii
<jussi01> hey all
<apachelogger> ahoy jussi01
<cheguevara> hi everyone
<mhb> greetings everyone
<Nightrose> heya
<mornfall> Hi.
<Riddell> Good evening friends
 * apachelogger waves
<Riddell> coming to you live tonight over the water from Canonical Tower
* ubotu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Current meeting: Kubuntu Developers Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 30 Jan 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu meeting | 01 Feb 20:00 UTC: MOTU
<cheguevara> heh
<Riddell> to my left is MI5 and to might right is MI6 so don't say anything naughty
<kwwii> let's make this quick, the bar is calling :-)
<Nightrose> hehe
<Riddell> there's a couple of items on https://wiki.kubuntu.org/Kubuntu/Meetings
<apachelogger> yet again he is making me jealous :S
<jussi01> and my bed!
<Riddell> nixternal about?
<Riddell> otherwise i don't think we have quorum
<Riddell> do we have any memberships?
<seele> oh, meeting started
 * seele waves
<Riddell> GuillaumeMartres about?
<Riddell> it's smarter
<Riddell> and he's not about
<Riddell> kubuntu-default-settings-kde4
<nosredna_ekim> ok.... I'll go for membership :)
<Riddell> I did try this with the k-d-s upload today but it didn't work
<Riddell> if someone wants to work out how to set the wallpaper in plasma from k-d-s that would be very welcome
<Riddell> nosredna_ekim: do you have a wiki page?
<apachelogger> Riddell: I think the wallpaper might as well not be possible
<apachelogger> it is pretty new code IIRC
<nosredna_ekim> umm... never mind.. I just read what I needed prepared, i'll wait till next time and get that stuff in order
<Riddell> apachelogger: why not?  plasma can set it
<nosredna_ekim> sorry
<apachelogger> Riddell: yeah, just to set it properly ;-)
<apachelogger> well, I'll have a look at it
<Riddell> nosredna_ekim: write yourself a wiki page and I can look it over when you like
<Riddell> apachelogger: thanks
<Riddell> HaraldSitter had a topic
 * apachelogger raises his hand
<apachelogger> actually a lot of them :D
<mornfall> (I may have a topic as well. But in order.)
<apachelogger> on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/HaraldSitter/KdeFour you find some of them
<apachelogger> actually a selection of the most important ones
<apachelogger> I'd like to start off with https://wiki.ubuntu.com/HaraldSitter/KdeFour/Apps4For3
<apachelogger> it explains how we get KDE 4 wrapper desktop files for KDE 3, and can still use the native KDE 4 ones in KDE 4
<apachelogger> it bascially just means that we change our KDE 4 packages ot install kde4-foobar.desktop to /usr/share/applnk which is the a old directory for KDElnk files
<Riddell> ideally we wouldn't have wrapper scripts at all, they're pretty ugly
<apachelogger> yeah
<apachelogger> well
<kwwii> I agree with not having wrapper scripts - it'll never work right
<apachelogger> yoo hav eto differ here
<apachelogger> *have to
<apachelogger> I'm talking about the desktop files :P
<Riddell> apachelogger: won't /usr/share/applnk show up in kde 4 too?
<apachelogger> I'd like to hear some opinions on this proposed changed
<apachelogger> nope
<Riddell> why not?
<apachelogger> that's the nifty thing about it
<apachelogger> Riddell: kde4 will only scan $KDEDIR/share/applnk
<Riddell> and it wouldn't work in gnome
<apachelogger> which is /usr/lib/kde4/
<apachelogger> Riddell: yeah, but we have to choose between not working in gnome and causing 300 issues in KDE 4
<apachelogger> actually we could probably patch/configure gnome so it scans /usr/share/applnk
* ubotu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Current meeting: Kubuntu Developers Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 30 Jan 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu meeting | 01 Feb 20:00 UTC: MOTU | 13 Feb 22:30 UTC: Forum Council
<cheguevara> will the ubuntu people let us
<apachelogger> *shrug*
<apachelogger> I hope so
<mhb> they won't be happy about it
<Riddell> the correct way would be to use NotShowIn=KDE;
<apachelogger> hm
<Riddell> and set KDE 4 to check for NotShowIn=KDE4;
<apachelogger> yeah
<apachelogger> Riddell: up for changing it?
<Riddell> apachelogger: can do
<apachelogger> alternately we could also create 2 desktop files... thinking about it
<Riddell> (probably next week)
<apachelogger> ok
<mornfall> apachelogger: Can't the XDG paths be set in env/*.sh?
<mornfall> apachelogger: Without patching KDE.
<apachelogger> mornfall: these would be catched by KDE 4 as well
<mornfall> apachelogger: They have different <prefixes>.
<apachelogger> so we have the KDE 4 wrapper structure again in KDE 4
<Riddell> ~/.kde/env and ~/.kde4/env are different
<mornfall> The env bits can be set in /usr/... as well, not only ~/.kde.
<mornfall> At least in KDE4, I don't have KDE3 startkde handy. Can anyone check?
<Riddell> # Source scripts found in <localprefix>/env/*.sh and <prefixes>/env/*.sh
<Riddell> # (where <localprefix> is $KDEHOME or ~/.kde, and <prefixes> is where KDE is installed)
<Riddell> interesting
<apachelogger> so it is possible
<apachelogger> well
<apachelogger> lets try to use this solution then
<mornfall> Well, we can't realistically have /usr/env.
<apachelogger> if it doesn't work out
<mornfall> If I read that right.
<apachelogger> mornfall: why?
<mornfall> FHS?
<mornfall> Although, who knows.
<mornfall> But it is weird at best.
<mornfall> And I am not sure about dropping files into user homedirs.
<mornfall> That's probably asking for trouble.
<stdin> we already drop ~/.kde/env/gtk-qt-engine.rc.sh in
<mornfall> Icky.
<apachelogger> well
<apachelogger> that is just one file
<apachelogger> kde4*.desktop can be a lot more
<apachelogger> which could even slow login down
<apachelogger> ...
<apachelogger> which is also a problem
<apachelogger> updates don't get available until next login
<apachelogger> I think we should do some investigation on the env stuff
<Riddell> yep
<apachelogger> it it doesn't work out we still can patch KDE 4 to notshowin=kde4;
<Riddell> Apps3For4?
<apachelogger> yeah
<apachelogger> it's basically just a statement
<apachelogger> since there is no real solution
<apachelogger> right now
<apachelogger> we have 2 entries in the KDE 4 menu
<apachelogger> "Foobar" and "Foobar KDE 4"
<apachelogger> both start the KDE 4 version of Foobar (described in the wiki)
<apachelogger> which is confusing
<apachelogger> if we use the stock kde 4 desktop files and don't scan the wrapper ones
<apachelogger> it will just be an override status
<mornfall> apachelogger: I'd say YAGNI and say that overlaid KDE3 apps should be inaccessible, period.
<apachelogger> so I have Foobar 1 install and Foobar 2 installed, Foobar 2 will start unless it get uninstalled
<apachelogger> mornfall: ok
<apachelogger> letz move along, next two https://wiki.ubuntu.com/HaraldSitter/KdeFour/DotKde and https://wiki.ubuntu.com/HaraldSitter/KdeFour/MigrationWizard
<Riddell> that's fine but it's still ugly having two menu entries
<mornfall> (As you argue in that page, it's not really an issue.)
<apachelogger> Riddell: this is fixed with Apps4for3
<mornfall> Riddell: I suppose that is solved by the previous thing.
<apachelogger> since app names are equal
<Riddell> right, sorted
<apachelogger> the KDE 4 overrides KDE 3 -> one entry
<mhb> I'm not sure about the idea of not being able to launch some KDE3 apps in KDE4.
<apachelogger> _we have to_
<apachelogger> there is no kdepim for KDE 4
<apachelogger> no amarok
<apachelogger> no ktorrent
<apachelogger> etc.
<stdin> mhb: that's the way it is already, try starting kde3's konqueror in kde4
<apachelogger> so we have to launch the KDE 3 version if there is no KDE 4 version
<mhb> apachelogger: I get that.
<apachelogger> but? ;-)
<mhb> I just believe there may be use cases for people that want to use both versions at once.
<apachelogger> as for example?
<mhb> if it's just me, I can live with it.
<apachelogger> everyone should
<kwwii> I agree
<mhb> kopete4 doesn't work for me but I don't want to remove it.
<stdin> if you rally want to start the kde3 app, you can still run it from the full path
<apachelogger> I can't think of a use case where our target audience would have both installed but use the KDE 3 version
<mornfall> mhb: "there may be use cases" is a very dangerous idea.
<mornfall> mhb: There are usecases for virtually everything. You have to ask yourself, is this reasonable? Is this common? Is it worth the effort?
<mornfall> I'd say yes, no and no.
<apachelogger> mhb: kopete4 is not useable and I doubt it will become part of -desktop-kde4
<mhb> mornfall: yes, and I say early KDE4 adopters might want to keep KDE4 apps but launch KDE3 ones when they need something working
<apachelogger> so our target user group will not install it
<apachelogger> mhb: then they will know how to do that
<mornfall> Right. There's always terminal.
<apachelogger> people who don't want to uninstall crapware are the same people who know how to use a terminal :P
<mhb> if you launch say "kopete" in the terminal it'll launch the KDE4 version (provided you're on a KDE4 session).
<mhb> you have to specify the full path to launch the KDE3 one.
<mornfall> mhb: /usr/bin/kopete?
<mornfall> Documentable.
<stdin> the only other solution would be kde3 wrapper scripts for kde4 and that would just reverse the problem we have already
<apachelogger> this use case is just very rare
<mhb> like I said, I can live with it if the rest of the team thinks such users are unlikely and experienced with the command line.
<apachelogger> either a software is useable
<apachelogger> or it is not
<mornfall> mhb: You could write a short document on "where are my KDE3 apps" for those people. Even newbies can follow instructions for that.
<apachelogger> if it is you will use it
<apachelogger> if it is not, you won't
<mornfall> Right.
<mornfall> As for dotfiles.
<apachelogger> well
<apachelogger> the question we have to ask ourselfs is
<mornfall> apachelogger: Is your proposal to cp -a .kde .kde3 in Hardy, if ! test -e ~/.kde3?
<apachelogger> do we want to use .kde for KDE 4 _ever again_
<apachelogger> because if we want
<apachelogger> we have to do it before hardy
<mornfall> Agreed.
<mhb> not really agreed, but go on
<apachelogger> as a note is to say, that suse for examle sticks to .kde4
<mornfall> And I find the .kde4 idea a little creepy. Something that will come back and stab you in the back.
<apachelogger> yeah
<apachelogger> +1 on mornfall's comment there :D
<apachelogger> KDE should put more thinking in upgrade secenarios... but well...
<apachelogger> isn't the case right now
<mornfall> Consider NFS homes.
<mhb> I think moving .kde to .kde3 for KDE3 users is dangerous practice. The KDE3 CD is intended to be for the people that don't like breakage.
<Riddell> KDE's upgrade is fine, co-installability less so
<mhb> (for Hardy, that is)
<apachelogger> mhb: there is minimal risk of breakage
<apachelogger> only very rare cases would lead to a breakage
<mornfall> Well, the failure mode is:
<mornfall> Upgrade to hardy, edit settings (affects ~/.kde3). Downgrade (hardy is broken, blaa blaa). Where is my settings?!
<stdin> downgrading releases is expressly unsupported anyway
<mornfall> There's always been the problem of running older KDE than your .kde is.
<apachelogger> mornfall: well, we don't support downgrades anyway, do we?
<mornfall> apachelogger: Well, you can do that by booting a different installation with same /home.)
<mornfall> -)
<nixternal> bah
<nixternal> sorry about that, was doing a job interview
<mhb> I'm really worried about the KDE3 upgraders... are you sure the .kde stuff will get copied correctly for all users on the system?
<apachelogger> mornfall: again you have to consider what our target user group does and wants
<mornfall> mhb: Not hard to ensure.
<LaserJock> nixternal? ... have a job?? ... hahaha ;-)
<mornfall> apachelogger: Yes, possibly so.
<nixternal> hehe
<mhb> mornfall: even for those that don't really run KDE, just some apps from it?
<mhb> mornfall: I'm afraid we can't even imagine in how many way people use KDE apps.
<mornfall> mhb: It's been the same issue in 3.4->3.5. Everyone survived.
<nixternal> FYI: I copied my ~/.kde to ~/.kde4 to see what would happen, and the first couple of logins meant that KDE 4 didn't want to start up, and some of the settings didn't stay the same
<mornfall> Just noone cared for the way back.
<apachelogger> mhb: they will not effect the location of configs ;-)
<nixternal> anything in ~/.kde4/Autostart will not all the desktop to load up
<mhb> there will be breakage without a doubt. I would suggest waiting with config dir juggling for Hardy+1, when we need to migrate everyone to KDE4 anyway.
<apachelogger> nixternal: it worked for me
<apachelogger> anyway
<apachelogger> to be more precise
<apachelogger> this change does basically mean that .kde only includes apps and configs from gutsy .kde
<nixternal> well, I have been dist-upgrading both of my machines I tried it on (1 x86 and 1 x86_64) since Dapper, and neither liked it
<apachelogger> like, icon sets are useless due to name change
<nixternal> haven't tried seeing what a fresh install would do
<mornfall> mhb: At that point, you will have .kde4 dirs all around the place that will need to be migrated as well and make a total mess of everything.
<apachelogger> well
<mornfall> Although.
<apachelogger> nixternal is reminding me on somthing
<apachelogger> if we migrate to .kde3
<apachelogger> we should do it as soon as possible
<mornfall> If you do .kde -> .kde3 and .kde4 -> .kde, that should be equivalent.
<mhb> mornfall: I know that, but I prefer one big mess over two medium-sized, we'll get criticized for each one anyway.
<apachelogger> because we need to test it properly
<mhb> what about all the other around? what do you think?
<nixternal> do we have any idea what other distributions are thinking about doing, or how they are planning on going about the migration?
<apachelogger> I only know about suse
<apachelogger> they stick to .kde4
<mornfall> As in, you say that: when you first run KDE4, the settings will be copied to KDE4 but will never be merged again. Changes done in KDE4 will affect KDE4 only, changes in KDE3 will affect KDE3 only. Maybe in the migration wizard, you can give the option to override old KDE4 settings with current KDE3 ones.
<nixternal> I think it would be wise to communicate with the other distros
<apachelogger> and probably want KDE to provide a migration architecture
<mornfall> Then, the .kde4 -> .kde && .kde -> .kde4 shouldn't be such a mess. Dunno.
<apachelogger> but since we release before such a thing would be finished we have to get our own solution
<apachelogger> Riddell: do you know about other distro's opinions beside suse?
<Riddell> apachelogger: no, I'm wishing I had asked last week
<mornfall> Well, the one solution is to back up religiously before you do anything to any user settings.
<nixternal> we should communicate with Fedora, SUSE, PC Linux OS, Mandriva, and others looking to implement something similar
<apachelogger> mornfall: that is the case
<kwwii> nixternal: +1
<apachelogger> !we backup everything before we do anything!
<mornfall> Then, you are basically safe.
<mornfall> If there is a restore path, even if manual, most users should end up happy.
<apachelogger> yeah
<kwwii> I think that we need more info before making a decision
<apachelogger> but nixternal is having a point
<nixternal> just don't backup the tmp-* stuff in ~/.kde while the system is up and running...it hasn't worked to well for me during the past 10 years :)
<apachelogger> anyone willing to contact up other distros?
<mornfall> What is upstream default?
<mhb> okay, so let's decide at the next meeting?
<nixternal> it will always say "you can't do that knucklehead, I am using that" :)
<apachelogger> mhb: in this case we should do a special meting
<apachelogger> *meeting
<apachelogger> next week
<apachelogger> because really
<apachelogger> this is quite urgent
<mornfall> There will always be users that install from source.
<kwwii> apachelogger: +1
<apachelogger> we need to give it a good amount of testing
<apachelogger> else every case of migration can cause serious problems
<mornfall> So if distros pick a different route, they are probably breaking things.
<apachelogger> mornfall: nope, one can set the default path in kdelibs... or kdebase.. .can't remember
<kwwii> if you install from source you know what you are doing and are getting yourself into trouble, if any
<nixternal> we should plan on at least feeling out the water before jumping in...I would hate to not test the water and jump in, only to be devoured by irn bru drinking gators
<apachelogger> so every app compiled against it will use whatever path is defined there
<mornfall> apachelogger: Sure, but I mean. If you don't specify anything explicitly, what will KDE4 pick?
<apachelogger> .kde
<kwwii> I suggest that apachelogger and nixternal contact other distros to attain this info and that we have a meeting next week to decide
<kwwii> ;-)
 * apachelogger is ok with that
 * nixternal too
<Riddell> thanks both
<nixternal> apachelogger: we can discuss this post-meeting and come up with a strong delivery
<apachelogger> yeah
<apachelogger> kwwii: suggestions for a meeting day
<apachelogger> ?
<kwwii> apachelogger: one week from today would be an ok date, or?
<nixternal> btw, default KDE 3 wallpaper is gorgeous, and the KDM login is beautiful...for some reason I had the KDM login screen disabled, giving me a 1980's looking login box :)
<kwwii> assuming that we get responses by then
<nixternal> can we at least get feedback prior to firing up a meeting..It might be good to see about bringing the other distributions together for a centralized meeting on this as well
<Riddell> KdeSudo?
<apachelogger> kwwii: well, I have an importan project meeting on Thu
<mornfall> Go for upstream solution, IMHO. Sounds like the right thing to do.
<apachelogger> well
<apachelogger> lets go with meeting+7*24h
<apachelogger> mornfall: there is just not enough time
<mornfall> apachelogger: Which means?
<apachelogger> we need a solution in time for hardy
<mornfall> Is it less effort to port kdesudo to kde4 than fix whatever is wrong with kdesu?
<apachelogger> ah
<kwwii> as long as we plana meeting a few daays in advance it should not be a problem to pick a decent day and time
<nixternal> apachelogger: we are looking to have a solid migration tool by October of 2008, I think we have time to plan, design, test, and implemant
<apachelogger> I was talking about .kde still :D
<apachelogger> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/HaraldSitter/KdeFour/KdeSudo
<mornfall> apachelogger: Riddell changed topics : - ).
<Riddell> apachelogger: kdesu in kde 4 won't be any better than in kde 3
<apachelogger> well
<Riddell> it still own't remember password
<Riddell> which is the main reason for kdesudo
<apachelogger> how about implementing kdesudo stuff in upstream then?
<mornfall> Hm.
<apachelogger> so others can take advantage of it as well
 * nixternal thought that was the plan originally
<mornfall> Riddell: How is password caching done? Sounds like it should be using the sudo feature of not asking password for a while after entering it once.
 * kwwii has no battery left...gotta go
<nixternal> hehe, later kwwii
<apachelogger> ha, cu kwwii :D
<kwwii> see you!
<Riddell> mornfall: that's how it's done, but kdesu can't remember the pty so it doesn't work
<blizzzek> bye kwwii
<apachelogger> Riddell: who is developing kdesudo?
<Riddell> apachelogger: tonio
<apachelogger> will talk to him about this
<apachelogger> but we can generally agree that it would make sense to make upstream's solution work properly instead of develop our own?
<mornfall> apachelogger: Yes. Given it is possible to do that.
<Riddell> apachelogger: that's what we tried until gutsy, but it didn't work
<apachelogger> Riddell: is the structure of kdesu and kdesudo that different?
<Riddell> yes, very
<mornfall> Can kdesudo use su?
<Riddell> kdesu has a daemon and protocl
<Riddell> mornfall: no but it could probably be added
<apachelogger> Riddell: talked with kdesu developer(s) about this?
<Riddell> apachelogger: you're making an assumption there :)
<nixternal> hehe
<mornfall> Hm.
<apachelogger> I would never do that :P
<mornfall> kdesu has a remember password checkbox, does it not?
<mornfall> That's why it needs a daemon.
<apachelogger> well
<apachelogger> only for su
<mornfall> Right. But kdesudo can't do that.
<mornfall> Which may be a problem.
<apachelogger> kdesudo does remember the password
<apachelogger> well, not kdesudo
<apachelogger> but sudo does
<mornfall> The daemon also may need to run as root, since it needs mlock.
<mornfall> apachelogger: Not everyone with KDE has sudo, so that's a no-go for upstream.
<apachelogger> mornfall: kdesu supports su and sudo
<stdin> mornfall: kdesu is configured at build to use sudo _or_ su
<mornfall> apachelogger: Yes, but its password caching is separate from sudo, I suppose?
<apachelogger> just that the sudo support is quite crappy from what Riddell saied
<mornfall> Hm.
<mhb> it is.
<apachelogger> well
<apachelogger> I'll talk with tonio about this
<apachelogger> and upstream
<mornfall> Right.
<Riddell> if kdesu can be fixed for sudo then great, but I couldn't work out how when I looked at it
<apachelogger> ok
<apachelogger> we will see :)
<apachelogger> last item: Maybe we should mark upstream KDE 4 bugs, so we can differ them from our bugs (add [KDE 4] to the name, and tag as kde4)?
<Riddell> sounds like hassle
<nixternal> I recommended tagging a few weeks back actually
<nixternal> it could be a great "get into helping Kubuntu" task
<Riddell> they almost all hvae -kde4 in the package name
<apachelogger> well
<apachelogger> I mean
<apachelogger> differ packaging bugs from software bugs
<apachelogger> I dunno if it makes sense 4 weeks from now
<cheguevara> if there's nothing more important i can volunteer to do that
<apachelogger> but right now it does, because I mostly fix some software bugs along with package bugs by backporting fixes from KDE svn
<apachelogger> anyone sees a reason for not tagging?
<Riddell> if cheguevara wants to, that's all good
<mornfall> Other than extra work, probably no. If volunteers are found, why not.
<apachelogger> ok
 * txwikinger will try to look after tagging too
 * apachelogger as well
<apachelogger> so we are 3 with cheguevara
<Riddell> great
<apachelogger> should be enough for now :)
<cheguevara> the hardest thing is locating if a bug already exists in the kde bug tracker or not
<mornfall> apachelogger: Or forever.
<apachelogger> Riddell: so, I'm done for this meeting
<Riddell> any other business? mornfall?
<mornfall> Well, there's Adept and what to do about it.
<mornfall> I am pretty outdated on package management in kubuntu.
<apachelogger> cheguevara: well, this can be done when someone has time, when the bug is tagged it's quite easy to have some of them compared to kde bts
#ubuntu-meeting 2008-01-24
<mornfall> So what are the priorities?
<nosrednaekim> .45 between the eyes...
<cheguevara> apachelogger, yeah, i get you, its just that bug tracker is huge :P
<Riddell> port the existing bits to kde 4 is the priority (not super priority, we havn't been expecting anything for hardy, but it'll be needed for hardy+1)
 * Nightrose is good at searching stuff
<apachelogger> cheguevara: you just need to know how to search, really ;-)
<Nightrose> +for
<cheguevara> :P
<cheguevara> am I right that the kde 4 packages are not yet auto assigned to kubuntu team
<cheguevara> as in https://launchpad.net/~kubuntu-team/+packagebugs
<mornfall> Riddell: Well, existing bits.
<Riddell> cheguevara: right
<mornfall> Riddell: The existing bits are beyond repair.
<Riddell> mornfall: s/port/rewrite/ then
<mornfall> We don't have yuriy around...
<mornfall> Hm.
<mornfall> I am fairly sure that I won't be able to do all the frontends we have now.
<mornfall> For Hardy that is.
<mornfall> But it shouldn't be too hard to do those.
<mornfall> Notifier is trivial (guts-wise), but it should be a plasmoid or something I guess, so the UI bits are tricky.
<Riddell> notifier has some tacked on bits these days, for apport and reboot notification
<mornfall> For updater and installer, uh-uh. The .desktop infrastructure I can port over, but the UI needs to be done.
<mornfall> Well, if I find time, I could do that, but. There is nontrivial amount of work on the common guts.
<Riddell> but for hardy we'll be having kde 3 stuff on the kde 4 CD anyway, it's not a problem to resort back to kde 3 where there's gaps
<mornfall> 1) *robust* dpkg handling (that's a number one, since that's the number one problem with old adept)
<apachelogger> +1
<mornfall> (Other robustness issues should be solved by now.)
<mornfall> 1a) is the obvious under-the-hood coding
<mornfall> 1b) is GUI conffile handling (wreaks havoc with current adept, somehow)
<mornfall> 1c) is some debconf magic
<mornfall> 1d) would be to get a controlling terminal, but I think that's optional
<Riddell> I'd like to see terminals in GUI package apps die
<Riddell> it's a nightmare with the dist-upgrade tool
<mornfall> 2) would be download progress UI, which I am a total loss on how to implement
<mornfall> As in, how to visualise the download, since there can be some parallelism with APT.
<mornfall> I am not too fond of the current widget.
<Riddell> doesn't it know the total amount to download and the amount currently downloaded?  a simple progress bar would be clearest
<mornfall> Riddell: It's always been a nightmare.
<apachelogger> mornfall: I dunno if it's just my personal perception, but adept always seemed kinda slow to me, updater for example (compared to the ubuntu counterpart)
<mornfall> apachelogger: Not anymore.
<apachelogger> very nice :D
<mornfall> apachelogger: https://launchpad.net/~me-mornfall/+archive and go install it for homework.
<Riddell> adept 3 is much faster
<mornfall> There's still the xapian index update issue (that's somewhere around point 3)
<mornfall> Which will make it slow to start from time to time. Although, a possible fix would be:
<Riddell> mornfall: daily cron?
<mornfall> build index in postinst and fork off a background job to update it when exiting
<Riddell> along with the apt update
<mornfall> Could do, but that won't work for everyone, I suspect.
<mornfall> The xapian index is not required to be absolutely up to date.
<pygi> but is suggested to be
<mornfall> Why?
<mornfall> Anyway, that's a technical issue.
<mornfall> Anything else about priorities?
<pygi> true
<mornfall> With those 3 sorted out, we can have a decent package manager in KDE 4.
<mornfall> It won't be able to edit sources.
<mornfall> (For the time being, it can suggest to run software-properties-kde in the Sources tab.)
<mornfall> Maybe even have a button for it.
<Riddell> conffile handling always seems messy to me, would be nicer if it used a debconf interface
<Riddell> but I expect there's a reason it can't
<mornfall> Riddell: It's actually better if it doesn't use debconf.
<mornfall> Riddell: But some packages use UCF which is debconf-based.
<mornfall> But, dpkg has an interface for GUIs to handle the conffiles.
<Riddell> oh, ok
<mornfall> (Same as for the progress reporting.)
<Riddell> I would think just caring about manager until it works would be sensible, worrying about the otherrontends might be a distraction
<mornfall> Ok. I also think that with the current interface, it is more graspable for newbies.
<mornfall> Some filtering options will appear, but it should stay fairly clean.
<Riddell> yes, although I'm no totallyt convinced at the expanding list items
<mornfall> Hm. I still don't have better solution for that...
<Riddell> it would need another panel to hte side or bottom, which takes up screen space
<mornfall> The split-view has a different set of problems. It's pick your poison kind of choice.
<Riddell> yes
<Riddell> well, it's late, has that helped?  any other questions?
<mornfall> Me? Probably no. Thanks.
<Riddell> my roommate has gone to sleep so it's probably time for me to do so too
<apachelogger> :)
<mornfall> (I just needed to make sure I have priorities roughly matched with expectations...)
<apachelogger> Riddell: btw, we have to patch KDE for the desktop files
<mornfall> Goodnight then, I should probably sleep, too.
<apachelogger> Riddell: because setting the XDG var in env won't solve the issue really - gnome doesn't use env and everything else would result in the same issue
<mhb> goodnight Riddell
<mhb> and everyone
<mhb> thanks for being here
<mornfall> apachelogger: (Try the profile files in /etc maybe, they may be sourced upon login.)
<cheguevara> good night everyone
<apachelogger> mornfall: well it will always have the same issues
<apachelogger> either the configuration is too global
<apachelogger> as the stuff in etc
<apachelogger> which would also apply to KDE 4
<apachelogger> hence not improve the situation at all
<apachelogger> or it is too specific like env which is only used by kde really
<mornfall> apachelogger: You can combine them: apply it in /etc and undo in kde4-env.
<apachelogger> uhh, I think a patch is easier then :P
<bmk789> @schedule
* ubotu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 30 Jan 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu meeting | 01 Feb 20:00 UTC: MOTU | 13 Feb 22:30 UTC: Forum Council
<blizzzek> gn8
 * emgent night.
<Datalanche> Zzz..
<juliux> hi doko
<gcleric> exit
<juliux> @schedule berlin
<ubotu> Schedule for Europe/Berlin: 30 Jan 13:00: Edubuntu meeting | 01 Feb 21:00: MOTU | 13 Feb 23:30: Forum Council
#ubuntu-meeting 2008-01-25
<Palintheus> ;
<davies> ;)*
<Palintheus> bah...irssi was slow on the window change
#ubuntu-meeting 2008-01-26
<dogsson> simon and your mother and a stranger and your room mate says turn the volume down turn the volume down
#ubuntu-meeting 2008-01-27
<Hobbsee> @now pst
<Hobbsee> @now PST8PDT
<ubotu> Current time in PST8PDT: January 26 2008, 22:27:44 - Next meeting: Edubuntu meeting in 3 days
<Gunirus> afk
#ubuntu-meeting 2009-01-19
<Megiddo> Hi
<Megiddo> I am Lord Xeb
<Megiddo> I got a question about getting unbanned?
<Megiddo> I was looking over all my posts and noticed how many stupid, sensless ones I made
* ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Current meeting: IRC Council Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ |
<boredandblogging> jussi01: hi
<jussi01> boredandblogging: hey
<jpds> Evening.
<boredandblogging> hello jpds
<boredandblogging> @now
<ubottu> Current time in Etc/UTC: January 19 2009, 21:57:57 - Current meeting: IRC Council
<jussi01> so, elkbuntu cant make it afaik, waiting on pricey, nal, and Pici
<boredandblogging> hmmm
<jussi01> pricey seems to be offline...
<boredandblogging> Pici was talking earlier in -news
<boredandblogging> jussi01: I don't mind waiting for a while
<boredandblogging> I'm trying to avoid rush hour traffic anyway
<jussi01> well given its midnight here...
<boredandblogging> yeah
<boredandblogging> 10 more minutes?
<jussi01> yeah, maybe more... well see
<jussi01> boredandblogging: so can you give me your understanding of this irc contributors team should be?
<boredandblogging> jussi01: sure...
<jussi01> boredandblogging: we may as well do something constructive
<boredandblogging> basically, its a way of giving Ubuntu membership to people who have contributed mainly through IRC
<boredandblogging> hah, right
<boredandblogging> so instead of going through the regional boards
<boredandblogging> to get approved, membership can be handled within the Irc Team
<boredandblogging> this doesn't mean contributors join the operators team or anything
<boredandblogging> its simply recognition
<jussi01> yeah, Im getting it
<boredandblogging> which is still a bit bizarre to me...
<boredandblogging> I understand it, but I don't think we do it like that on most teams
<jussi01> so the irc council would vote at our meetings for these peoples memberships?
<boredandblogging> correct
<boredandblogging> we have to come up with a process
<boredandblogging> which should be an adventure in itself
<jussi01> and these people would apply for membership in the normal way?
<boredandblogging> thats for us to determine
<jussi01> hrm.
<boredandblogging> so if they were going to go up for regular membership, they would write up a wiki page
<boredandblogging> thats a bit more difficult with irc
<boredandblogging> documenting irc contributions in general
<jussi01> why?
<jussi01> I dont see it like that
<jussi01> you still get testimonials
<boredandblogging> right
<jussi01> you still write up what youve done.
<boredandblogging> its a bit harder to pin down in a wiki (not that it can't be done), like a potential forum moderator can say "look at post xyz and thread foo to see who helped..."
<jussi01> true
<boredandblogging> do we have doc outlining how someone becomes an operator
<jussi01> boredandblogging: no. dont think so.
<boredandblogging> do you think we need one?
<boredandblogging> don't think forums have one either for selecting moderators
<jussi01> no, not at all
<jussi01> operators are selected from good contributors in channels. there is an unwritten rule that if you ask, youll likely not get it.
<boredandblogging> right, I meant the criteria that gets them selected
<jussi01> I just ask, why do they need that?
<boredandblogging> i'm just wondering from a transparency point of view
<boredandblogging> if the discussion is public
<boredandblogging> or should be public, etc, etc
<jussi01> boredandblogging: I can see from your questions youve not been on the ubuntu-irc list long ;)
<boredandblogging> i have started reading through it
<boredandblogging> jussi01: my bad, I see it now
<boredandblogging> hi nalioth
<jussi01> boredandblogging: everything a user needs to know about becoming an op is here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IrcGuidelines
<nalioth> hi
<jussi01> hi nalioth
<boredandblogging> nalioth: any opinions on the Irc Contributors team?
<nalioth> boredandblogging: i just got here :(
<boredandblogging> nalioth: jussi01 and I were talking about what we thought it was supposed to be
<jussi01> well im off to bed. nini all.
<boredandblogging> jussi01: later
* ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | No meetings scheduled
#ubuntu-meeting 2009-01-20
 * persia is a bit late
<persia> amachu ?  elkbuntu ?  TheMuso ?  lifeless ? zakame ? Belutz ?
 * persia confirms it's 9:11 UTC on 20th January, against https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Membership/RegionalBoards/AsiaOceania
<persia> Well, in the absence of anyone else, I'm cancelling the meeting.  Apologies to those seeking membership this week.
<MaWaLe> thx persia
<amachu> persia: Hi
<persia> Hi.  I think it's 10:00 UTC now.  Only MaWaLe admitted to coming to the meeting, so I cancelled it.
<amachu> yes. I got that. Ok. I need to send invitation prior and remind people
<amachu> Well, so do we need to have the next meeting at 15.00 UTC
<amachu> or will it clash
<persia> It would clash.
<amachu> fine, then Lets have it at 11.00 UTC, the time we used to meet regularly
<amachu> what do you say?
<persia> Well, isn't that bad over there?
<amachu> persia: means?
<amachu> India
<persia> Yeah.
<persia> Next Tuesday 11:00 is bad for me for other reasons, but my personal schedule shouldn't be the deciding factor.
<amachu> persia: Ok. I will mail the group
<persia> That sounds like a better plan.
<dholbach> hi elmo
<dholbach> I pinged sabdfl and mako also, although I'm not sure that mako is up already
<dholbach> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CommunityCouncilAgenda is empty afaics
<dholbach> is here anybody with other business for the CC meeting?
<sabdfl> hello all
<dholbach> ah hi sabdfl! :)
<sabdfl> sorry for the delay
<dholbach> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CommunityCouncilAgenda is empty and I got no AOB from the people in here
<sabdfl> nothing from me
<dholbach> elmo: anything from you?
<sabdfl> do folks want an update on archivereorg?
<james_w> that would be interesting
<sabdfl> i think it is quite a big step from a community structure / management / leadership / organisation perspective
<sabdfl> yes? no?
<james_w> I agree
<sabdfl> ok, i'll do a quick summary
<sabdfl> the goal is to help scale our developer communit(ies), while at the same time removing unnecessary fragmentation
<sabdfl> we hope to achieve the scaling by allowing groups of developers with specific interests to collaborate around sets of packages in ubuntu
<sabdfl> for example, xfce folks around the set of packages that represent xfce in ubuntu, or documentation folks around the content packages
<sabdfl> access to those groups should be easier for new developers, because they will need to demonstrate a rigorous understanding of a subset of ubuntu, rather than the whole
<sabdfl> also, they will be evaluated and approved by the leaders of those specific communities
<sabdfl> with some provisions for maintaining a high standard across the board
<sabdfl> so, hopefully we have a better match of interests and permissions for more new developers
<sabdfl> all developers that have upload to ubuntu will be considered ubuntu developers, and get a vote in the developer community
<sabdfl> for example, in the TB elections
<sabdfl> separately, we will unify the "generalist developer teams", currently split into -core and -motu
<james_w> do you anticipate that we will have an explosion of councils, or that the existing MOTU Council will evaluate applications taking input from those leaders?
<sabdfl> so, there will only be one team of generalist developers
<sabdfl> some of current motu folks will start out in a focused team, others will start out in the new unified generalist team
<sabdfl> we agreed to be conservative in unleashing the new force of potential fragmentation :-)
<sabdfl> so, we will probably have 5-10 focus areas initially
<sabdfl> gnome, kde, xfce, documentation, mozilla/xul, toolchain, java, etc
<sabdfl> there hasn't been a decision-making conversation about that initial set
<sabdfl> finally, there will be some portions of the archive where you will need specialised knowledge to have immediate write access
<sabdfl> there's no final spec as to which areas they are
<sabdfl> but they will not be concentric (i.e. we won't have a simplistic "more trusted, less trusted" approach)
<sabdfl> kernel team gets kernel, and so on
<sabdfl> we will try to facilitate participation in those areas by others, too
<sabdfl> so any ubuntu developer will be able to upload to the kernel
<sabdfl> but the upload will need to be reviewed
<sabdfl> and there is a commitment to make sure those reviews happen timeously
<sabdfl> that's about it
<james_w> is that review something that could be extended across the board?
<james_w> otherwise we need a good way of asking "can I upload this package directly?"
<sabdfl> james_w: well, if someone from the xfce team uploads something that's defined as being part of gnome, or not part of anything, it would get queued for review, yes
<sabdfl> in other words, the general meme is "don't reject uploads, either send them to the builds or queue them for review"
<james_w> thanks, that's interesting
<sabdfl> that describes the layer of "package upload permissions", really
<sabdfl> i think w e will see a second layer emerging around access control to the branches that people use for package version control
<persia> sabdfl, This mechanism might replace some of the current sponsoring mechanisms more generally?
<sabdfl> james_w's work around NoMoreSourcePackages
 * dholbach hugs james_w
<sabdfl> persia: yes. if you have someone who is an expert in a field, and is doing good work with that set of packages, it should be possible to empower them to upload those packages directly
<sabdfl> so, we will have VCS for casual or specialist or upstream participation
<sabdfl> and a richer model for sharing the archive between collaborating teams
<sabdfl> with a more level playing field for folks who are trusted as generalists
<persia> I meant rather for those that weren't.  Currently, we use subscription to special sponsoring teams, but the queued upload solution seems like a better model for those who do not (yet) have upload to a given package.
<james_w> I think encouraging non-trivial uploads to be submitted as merge proposals would be sensible, as that is a better interface for review than pulling a package out of the unapproved queue
<sabdfl> persia: at this stage, i'd prefer there to be a difference between the queue for review of packages uploaded by people who are already ubuntu developers SOMEWHERE (i.e. -studio or -xubuntu)
<persia> sabdfl, That makes sense.  Thank you for the clarification.
<sabdfl> vs package reviews for someone who is not
<james_w> and avoids clashes where you wish to upload something that is awaiting review
<sabdfl> james_w: yes, i don't think our current queue system is up to it, that's where we'll need to do some work
<sabdfl> okdokey!
<sabdfl> any other questions? or should we wrap?
<dholbach> thanks sabdfl
<dholbach> nothing from me
<sabdfl> thank you dholbach :-)
<james_w> we could always make the uploads in the queue available as branches of course
<james_w> thank you sabdfl, interesting stuff
<james_w> I'm sure there will be plenty more discussion on this topic
<dholbach> OK, adjourned :)
<CrownAmbassador> Hi all. Can anyone tell me where I can find the notes for previous meetings and classes? I had it but lost it!
<persia> CrownAmbassador, Notes are scattered, but irclogs.ubuntu.com may help.
<CrownAmbassador> persia: thanks
<zul> heylo
<sommer> o//
<kirkland> o/
<mathiaz> good day/night server folks!
<nijaba> \o
<mathiaz> let's get started
<mathiaz> #startmeeting
<mathiaz> today's agenda:
<mathiaz> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/Meeting
<mathiaz> last week minutes: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/Server/20090113
<mathiaz> [TOPIC] Screen Profiles
<mathiaz> kirkland: I saw your post on screen-profiles
<kirkland> mathiaz: yessir
<nijaba>   /o\
<kirkland> mathiaz: i have uploaded a new copy, that changes the default escape sequence back to ctrl-a
<mathiaz> what happened on this front last week?
<kirkland> mathiaz: that seemed to be the overwhelming opinion on the ubuntu-server@ list
<kirkland> mathiaz: nijaba is working on some new functionality that would allow that to be configurable
<mathiaz> kirkland: agreed.
<kirkland> mathiaz: basically, all of the documentation out on the internet, and in all other distributions, the escape sequence is ctrl-a
<kirkland> mathiaz: there are some good reasons for it to be something else
<mathiaz> kirkland: nijaba: are there other plans for screen-profiles?
<kirkland> mathiaz: but i'm thinking it's not our place to force that change on others
<kirkland> mathiaz: allowing for easy adjustment, however, would be a very good thing!
<mathiaz> (beside escape sequence customization)
<mathiaz> kirkland: agreed.
<kirkland> mathiaz: it has also been promoted to Main
<nijaba> mathiaz: we are going to have a chat later today with kirkland so that he can merge my changes, but AFAIK, we should be feature complete
<kirkland> mathiaz: the next thing i'd like to do is make the 'screen' package depend on it, to get screen-profiles on the server cd
<mathiaz> should it be installed by default?
<kirkland> mathiaz: also, i'd like to make a minor modification to the screen package, to install the ubuntu profile created in screen-profiles to our default /etc/screenrc
<kirkland> mathiaz: i agree with 'feature-complete'
<mathiaz> kirkland: if -profiles is in main, where is it seeded for now?
<nijaba> mathiaz: after some serious testing, I would vote for it being installed by default
<kirkland> mathiaz: it's not seeded yet
<mathiaz> nijaba: for jaunty or jaunty+1?
<mathiaz> kirkland: well - then it's not in main yet
<kirkland> mathiaz: i'm going to do that later today, with the screen dependency on screen-profiles
<kirkland> mathiaz: okay, then it's been 'approved' for main
<kirkland> mathiaz: sorry
<nijaba> kirkland: it is for you to seed it, core-dev ;)
<mathiaz> kirkland: ok - dependency on screen.
<kirkland> mathiaz: right
<mathiaz> [ACTION] kirkland to seed screen-profiles in main as dependency of screen
<kirkland> mathiaz: once that's done, i'm going to start another thread on ubuntu-server@, about whether or not we should launch screen on login
<kirkland> mathiaz: i suspect there will be some resistance to that, but we're going to suggest it
<kirkland> mathiaz: it's easy to configure that way, post install
<kirkland> mathiaz: but I'm using it on all of my systems, and I'm *loving* it
<nijaba> kirkland: let's make sure people understand HOW we are proposing this
<mathiaz> [ACTION] kirkland to ask on ubuntu-server@ for screen by default on login
<kirkland> nijaba: okay, what do you mean by that?
<nijaba> kirkland: most people think it is replacing the default shel by screen
<nijaba> kirkland: which is not what we are doing
<kirkland> nijaba: right
<kirkland> nijaba: it's just a one-liner, added or removed from .bashrc and .bash_profile
<nijaba> kirkland: yes, but that changes everything, as it avoids launching screens in screen
<mathiaz> [ACTION] nijaba to provide a way to customize the escape sequence when configuring screen profiles
<nijaba> kirkland: when connecting to another server
<kirkland> mathiaz: okay, so that's all from me on this item
<nijaba> mathiaz: [ACTION] already done, now at merging stage
<mathiaz> kirkland: ok - seems that you'd have outline the technical implementation in your email
<kirkland> mathiaz: right
<mathiaz> kirkland: great - thanks for the report.
<mathiaz> let's move on.
<mathiaz> [TOPIC] SRU for ebox
<mathiaz> sommer: how is it going?
<sommer> mathiaz: the questions about the patches have been answered, and foolano is working on the packages for jaunty
<foolano> yep
<sommer> mathiaz: so once those are uploaded, I guess we'll re-upload to proposed
<mathiaz> foolano: where do you plan to publish your jaunty package?
<foolano> mathiaz: they are already published, they in our  ppa
<foolano> i have opened bugs to request sponsorship, attached diff.gz and so on
<mathiaz> foolano: which bug number?
<mathiaz> foolano: from https://launchpad.net/~ebox/+archive - 0.12.4?
<foolano> let me see, they are a few...
<foolano> i opened a bug for every package: 318697, 318710, 318717, 318729, 318730, 318810, 318813, 318814, 318817, 318822, 318825, 318827, 318829,318830
<foolano> mathiaz: they are in ~ebox-unstable becasue they need some testing...
<foolano> https://launchpad.net/~ebox-unstable/+archive
<mathiaz> foolano: ok - is ebox-unstable ready for inclusion in jaunty?
<mathiaz> bug 318697
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 318697 in libebox "Please upgrade libebox to 0.12.2" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/318697
<foolano> mathiaz:  it's our stable version,  it's in ebox-unstable because the pacaking for jaunty hasn't been tested  a lot
<nealmcb> bug 318710
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 318710 in ebox "Please upgrade ebox to 0.12.4" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/318710
<mathiaz> foolano: I'm confused by the version numbers: libebox 0.12.2 and ebox 0.12.4?
<mathiaz> foolano: is it normal that these packages don't have the same version number?
<foolano> mathiaz: yep, let me explain it to you
<foolano> mathiaz: we release 0.12.0 as our first stable version
<foolano> as we do bufgfixing we increase the last number 0.12.1, 0.12.2...
<foolano> and we release every module separated
<mathiaz> foolano: ok - makes sense.
<mathiaz> foolano: thanks for explaining that.
<mathiaz> I'll look at the packages.
<foolano> great :)
<mathiaz> [ACTION] mathiaz to look into ebox packages for jaunty sponsoring.
<mathiaz> once the updated packages are in jaunty, what's next for intrepid?
<foolano> we can request a SRU for intrepid then, right?
<sommer> can't we re-upload to proposed, and ask for sponsorship from motu-sru?
<mathiaz> yes - I think so. Has the package been rejected from the intrepid-proposed queue?
<mathiaz> Or the motu-sru didn't give their ACK?
<sommer> I believe the orginal one's chuck uploaded for me have been rejected
<mathiaz> Were any change made to the intrepid packages?
<mathiaz> ok - we'll sort this out once the new packages have been upload to jaunty.
<mathiaz> as this is the first step to get a SRU working properly
<sommer> I don't think there have been yet, but I believe foolano attached a patch to one of the bugs
<sommer> ya, should be quick to do once the jaunty packages are in
<mathiaz> anything else on the ebox front?
<sommer> I think that's it
<sommer> at least from me :)
<foolano> nothing further :)
<mathiaz> ok - let's move on
<mathiaz> [TOPIC] MySQL 5.1 in jaunty
<mathiaz> so I've looked into that
<mathiaz> and things are not fixed yet.
<mathiaz> the deeper I look the scarier it gets.
<sommer> heh, when you look into the abyss the abyss looks back
<mathiaz> I've emailed the Debian mysql maintainers and they don't have plans (for now) to support both 5.0 and 5.1 in archive
<mathiaz> their plans is to release lenny with 5.0
<zul> mathiaz: welcome to the party
<mathiaz> and once lenny is released 5.1 would be uploaded to unstable
<mathiaz> and library transition would be done at the very begining of the cycle.
<mathiaz> The maintainer might consider having a interim period with 5.0 and 5.1 in the archive.
<nealmcb> mathiaz: what are some of the challenges?
<mathiaz> http://lists.alioth.debian.org/pipermail/pkg-mysql-maint/2009-January/001433.html
<mathiaz> the biggest problem is that /etc/mysql/my.cnf are both used by 5.0 and 5.1 but they're incompatible
<mathiaz> right now installing mysql-server-5.1 pulls in the 5.0 my.conf which doesn't work
<nealmcb> sounds like a confusing version name
<nealmcb> if it isn
<nealmcb> if it isn't compatible like that
<mathiaz> well - it's incompatible at the Debian/Ubuntu level, not upstream
<mathiaz> we ship 5.0 my.cnf with skip-bdb (because it's deprecated in 5.1)
<mathiaz> and the skip-bdb option is not recognized in 5.1
<nealmcb> ahh
<mathiaz> (which makes the server fail to start and the package fails to install)
<mathiaz> so one of the option I've looked into is to support both 5.0 and 5.1 at the same time
<mathiaz> since we plan to have 5.0 in main and 5.1 in universe in jaunty for now
<mathiaz> having a structure similar to postgresql
<mathiaz> with /etc/mysql/5.0/my.cnf and /etc/mysql/5.1/my.cnf
<mathiaz> but that would require significant packaging work on both 5.0 and 5.1
<ivoks> would they have uniq conf.d?
<mathiaz> ivoks: yes. everything would move under /etc/mysql/5.X/
<mathiaz> init scripts have to be updated.
<mathiaz> all the scripts would be under /usr/share/mysql/5.X/
<ivoks> with /etc/mysql/conf.d/ or /etc/mysql/5.x/conf.d?
<mathiaz> with wrapper scripts in /usr/bin/ using the correct installed version
<mathiaz> ivoks: /etc/mysql/5.X/conf.d
<mathiaz> this is how the postgresql packages are setup
<mathiaz> you can install and run 8.2 and 8.3 at the same time in hardy
<ivoks> i know
<mathiaz> which help in upgrading since you have access to the old version of the program
<sommer> is it against debian policy to say have /etc/mysql/my.5.0.cnf and /etc/mysql/my.5.1.cnf and symlink one or the other to /etc/mysql/my.cnf?
<mathiaz> one of the question I have is if that would be usefull for MySQL?
<mathiaz> ie having access to both 5.0 and 5.1 at the same time?
<mathiaz> since MySQL provides support for upgrading existing databases.
<ivoks> i think these ideas would take too much time to realize, and probably fail in the process
<ivoks> i don't even want to think how to handle /var/lib/mysql on updates
<mathiaz> ivoks: well in the new scheme, you'd have /var/lib/mysql/5.0/ and /var/lib/mysql/5.1/
<ivoks> mathiaz: so, if i upgrade my 5.0 to 5.1, i'll loose all my databases?
<mathiaz> an upgrade would dump from mysq/5.0/ into mysql/5.1/
<ivoks> what if someone would drive both of them?
<ivoks> i'm sure someone will try 5.1, set up databases and then realize that 5.0 was more stable :)
<mathiaz> ivoks: hm.. seems that we should discuss this a bit more in depth.
<mathiaz> another solution is to just remove the skip-bdb from my.cnf
<ivoks> but... don't get me wrong, if someone thinks this is worthwile, i don't mind :)
<mathiaz> ivoks: I understand. As I said, setting up such a infrastructure would require significant packaging work
<ivoks> right
<mathiaz> ivoks: and we should definetly get the opinion of the Debian maintainers
<ivoks> let's start diuscussion on mailing list
<mathiaz> I'll reply to the thread mentionned above
<mathiaz> I'll also look into other solution to fix the issue in jaunty
<ivoks> (i'll check logs, since i was late :)
<mathiaz> [ACTION] mathiaz to ask Debian maintainer about supporting both 5.0 and 5.1 using a concept similar to postgresql
<mathiaz> [ACTION] mathiaz to look in other ways to fix 5.1 in jaunty
<mathiaz> ok - that's all I have from last week minutes
<mathiaz> anything else to add wrt to last week minutes?
<mathiaz> nope
<mathiaz> [TOPIC] Open Discussion
<mathiaz> anything else to add/discuss/brainstorm?
<ivoks> umm... at uds i mentioned ACL by default
<ivoks> i've sent patches for tar to debian matinainer
<ivoks> and it looks like support for acl, xattrs and selinux will get accepted in upstream in new version
<mathiaz> ivoks: do you mean turning on ACL by default on new installs?
<mathiaz> ivoks: is this in time for jaunty?
<ivoks> so, i would rather wait for those things to become part of upstream
<ivoks> mathiaz: i doubt
<ivoks> tar has 1-2 releases in a year
<ivoks> last release was in december, iirc
<mathiaz> ivoks: what was the answer from the Debian maintainer?
<ivoks> he liked the idea, but he doesn't want to fork tar
<mathiaz> ivoks: are there any other package that would be modified to support ACL by default?
<ivoks> so he keeps it clean as from upstream
<ivoks> mathiaz: cpio could be one of them, i didn't check it
<ivoks> zip also
<mathiaz> ivoks: is there a wiki page to keep track of what needs to be done?
<ivoks> mathiaz: i'll set it up
<mathiaz> ivoks: it seems that we'd make sure that all relevant packages have ACL support before turning it on by default
<ivoks> mathiaz: of course
<mathiaz> ivoks: ok. So the first step would be to identify which packages need to support ACL
<ivoks> i'll set up wiki page with all the revelant stuff
<mathiaz> ivoks: great. Thanks
<mathiaz> [ACTION] ivoks to create wiki page to keep track of ACL support in packages
<mathiaz> ok - anything else to add?
<ivoks> and i'll start working on mail stack, now that bacula/drbd stuff are covered
<mathiaz> is drbd working in jaunty?
<mathiaz> ivoks: did you test it?
<ivoks> kernel team just commited my patch
<ivoks> once we get new kernel, i'll merge drbd 8.3.0 userspace
<ivoks> i allready have it builded and tested
<mathiaz> ivoks: ok. But we have to make sure that it works in jaunty too.
<ivoks> i'm talking about jaunty :)
<mathiaz> [ACTION] ivoks to merge drbd 8.3.0 userspace tools once the kernel has been uploaded.
<mathiaz> ivoks: I meant the jaunty archive, not your personal jaunty environment
<ivoks> hehe
<mathiaz> ivoks: what's the state of bacula in jaunty?
<ivoks> mathiaz: mostly working, i've sent patches for hardy/intrepid/jaunty to zul
 * nijaba needs to run.  see you later all
<ivoks> mathiaz: with those patches, everything should be fixed in all versions
<zul> its on my pile
<mathiaz> ivoks: are there bugs filed for these?
<ivoks> if anyone else is interested in sponsoring uploads?
<ivoks> mathiaz: not really
<mathiaz> ivoks: are you using the sponsorship queues?
<ivoks> mathiaz: jaunty doesn't have a bug; it just doesn't work yet and probably no one tested it
<mathiaz> ivoks: if you wanna get them fixed in hardy/intrepid you'll have to file bugs to get the SRU process going
<ivoks> and as for intrepid and hardy; bug pops up in rare cases
<ivoks> mathiaz: i know
<mathiaz> ivoks: ok - we're running out of time
<ivoks> mathiaz: don't worry about that
<ivoks> sorry :)
<mathiaz> ivoks: I'd suggest to file bug in LP and use the sponsorship queue.
<mathiaz> [TOPIC] Agree on next meeting date and time
<mathiaz> next week, same time, same place?
<sommer> +1
<ivoks> sure
<ivoks> sommer: o/
<mathiaz> oh - and a reminder - FeatureFreeze is in one month.
<mathiaz> ok - so see you all in one week, same place, same time.
<mathiaz> keep up the good work!
<mathiaz> #endmeeting
<sommer> thanks mathiaz, later on all
<foolano> see you guys :)
<pgraner> Hello All... its time for the weekly Kernel Team Meeting. I would like to start the meeting at 15 past the hour. I have had a few requests to hold off until after the integration of the US President. That should be complete by then. We will run a condensed meeting.
 * smb_tp acks
 * apw is here
 * cking acks
<rtg> pgraner: it won't even be close to being done in 15 minutes. the're just getting started,
<pgraner> rtg: they just did the VP, there should be some items in between then the Prez
<kirkland> pgraner: is he joining the meeting or something?
<kirkland> :-D
<pgraner> kirkland: could open a whole new ave for Ubuntu :)
<apw> more a mall i think
<rtg> kirkland: did you ever get to test file name encryption?
<kirkland> pgraner: he's too buddy-buddy with bill gates ;-)
<apw> running late apparently...
<kirkland> rtg: i'm hoping to finish the userspace bit today
<kirkland> rtg: i was trying to finish that first
<apw> he is messing it up!
<rtg> kirkland: I think I'll include the encryption changes anyway. nothing breaks without the mount option.
<kirkland> rtg: sounds good
<lieb> Its a done deal.
<rtg> he must have been nervous
<apw> enough to fluff his lines, just like at weddings
<lieb> yup
<cking> the pressure starts big time when he gets into the oval office
<pgraner> Ok folks let get started...
<pgraner> #startmeeting
 * apw is here
 * smb_tp here
 * cking is here too
 * pgraner wonders where the bot its
 * rtg dries his eyes :)
<pgraner> Ok the agenda is here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/Meeting
 * jpds gets someone on it.
 * amitk is here
<pgraner> [TOPIC] Security & bugfix kernels
 * sconklin is here
<smb_tp> Ok, Hardy point release looks good, so far.
<pgraner> smb_tp: that goes out thurs according to schedule correct?
<smb_tp> Intrepid seems to notice as soon as I want to get archive admins to push to -updates
<smb_tp> pgraner, correct
<rtg> smb_tp: what about the cifs regression?
<smb_tp> rtg, exactly that
<smb_tp> Turned up just this weekend
<smb_tp> So I am looking into that one
<rtg> smb_tp: is it a show stopper?
<pgraner> smb_tp: what releases does it appear in?
<smb_tp> I would think so. Quite some people use samba. It might be related only to ipv6
<smb_tp> pgraner, Current info is after current -9 in updates
<smb_tp> -9 still works. There have been some updates through stable
<smb_tp> Question would be if this is only ipv6, should it hold up the update?
<pgraner> smb_tp: anything else?
<smb_tp> CVE kernels (daper -hardy) I got prepared and i386 run tested
<smb_tp> Intrepid does not need security updates atm
<pgraner> smb_tp: Thanks
<pgraner> [TOPIC] Jaunty Status
<pgraner> Alpha 3 Feedback: ogasawara how are we looking?
<ogasawara> pgraner: I've been informally tracking. . . no official bugs have been reported via apport
<pgraner> ogasawara: none?
<ogasawara> pgraner: none.  but response via email/irc seems positive with the exception of the wakealarm being an issue for some
<pgraner> ogasawara: yea, I saw that as well
<ogasawara> pgraner: I have not heard of any failures thus far
<apw> if we are talking suspend bugs?  they would only be reported correctly if the system was updated, a bug in the pm-utils changes
<pgraner> [TOPIC] Suspend/Resume
<ogasawara> pgraner: bah, I was thinking suspend/resume above
<apw> from an automation point of view we have had one bug in pm-utils changes which
<pgraner> apw: I saw we had some changes to the scripts, are we good to go now?
<apw> has now been pushed out to -updates
<apw> i have also added some more reporting, which is still waiting to be pushed out, but less important
<apw> with that in place, we will have the bits in place and tested and working and in place
<pgraner> apw: So I guess A3 was a bust then from the reporting POV
<apw> well if they update, they will report from then, my a3 install updated and had the  fixes
<apw> we have had a fair bit of feedback internally, mostly positive, except as leanne
<apw> indicated the auto wakeup failures which is something broken upstream
<apw> but manual wakes has worked so far ...
<apw> so generally good testiing results
<pgraner> apw: any idea when the auto wake up will be addressed?
<apw> leann has also started tagging older bugs whcih are suspend related and i want to
<apw> start reviewing those soon
<apw> not had time to look yet at the cause to see if its fixed yet so no feel yet
<pgraner> apw: ack
<apw> ogasawara, i think you had a pointer to the underlyuing wakeup bug?
<ogasawara> apw: yup http://bugzilla.kernel.org/show_bug.cgi?id=12013
<ubottu> bugzilla.kernel.org bug 12013 in Realtime Clock "/sys/class/rtc/rtc0/wakealarm doesn't work, while /proc/acpi/alarm works - Asus P2-M2A690G" [Normal,New]
<apw> thanks
<pgraner> apw: any lessons learned out of A3?
<apw> most of my time on s/r has been fixing the bugs in the automation, not had much time to look for any results, though as there is no failures so far i think i have nothing to base an oppinion
<apw> other than, it is better than i might have expected
<pgraner> apw: understood, I was looking for things like if we undertake an task like this again how can we do it better?
<apw> ahh, cirtianly we should have planned to be ready sooner so we could ahve tested the combined bits before the release
<apw> mostly we only had the combined uploads sorted out on the day and that was too late to find and fix the errors
<pgraner> apw: this gets into the UDS vs. Release schedule timing
<apw> the rest of the issues are 'training' issues, things now learned should not occur again
<sconklin> I think part of the latreness can be tracked to the late summit and the holiday break
<pgraner> apw: not to mention this cycle had the holiday break which didn't help much
<apw> but we were also working to the deadline of thursday, when we should have worked to monday or tuesday
<apw> to get things in place before the last minute cut off
<pgraner> apw: noted, we need to back the milestone back a few days not being the Alpha date
<apw> yeah, a day or two before is better
<pgraner> [ACTION] pgraner to revise the schedule going forward
<pgraner> [TOPIC] Vanilla Kernel Builds
<pgraner> apw: can we move this to someone else since your slammed? and if so recommendations?
<apw> i think we were going to tackle these in berlin
<rtg> pgraner: I'll take care of it.
<apw> sure we can, i seem to rememver you an i were going to discuss this after last meeting and failed to do so
<apw> rtg ok ... if you are going to attempt this in a PPA i have some base work that might be wort having
<pgraner> apw, rtg: see what you guys can work out prior so during berlin we can get working
<rtg> apw: I'm gonna build it native on zinc.
<apw> will do
<apw> rtg actually then my script might do what you want
<apw> it makes a virgin tree with out build machinary in it
<apw> building just the .debs from there would be easy
<rtg> apw: I just have to get elmo to open a route to kernel.org
<apw> by which i mean it puts our machinary into the virgin tree, and builds it
<apw> if you can get that, i suspect its not a big job to get this script producing something
<apw> it was getting it to work in a ppa that i was stuggling with
<rtg> apw: cool. have you committed it to Jaunty (the script I mean)
<apw> not yet.  will do that
<pgraner> [ACTION] apw to commit vanilla kernel build script to Jaunty tree
<rtg> on the topic of Jaunty, I'm uploading Jaunty later today, includes 2.6.28.1, drm fixes, ecryptfs filename encryption. It _is_ an ABI bump.
<apw> is that the huge wedge of upstream updates?  or is that .2
<rtg> .1 is pretty big
<rtg> 94 patches
<pgraner> rtg: reminder to email the normal parties :-)
<smb_tp> 2.6.27.12 as well
<Golgata> hi everybody
<rtg> pgraner: of course
<pgraner> [TOPIC] ARM Tree
<pgraner> amitk, rtg: where are we?
<rtg> the kernel at least builds now
<Golgata> hope someone can help me. i want to create a container usable with virtualbox which i can later burn to a dvd... sb got an idea?
<pgraner> Golgata: This is the meeting channel during an ongoing meeting, try #ubuntu-devel pls.
<amitk> rtg: I noticed you added udeb stuff too
<rtg> the debian installer folks should now be able to create an install disk
<Golgata> urgs, sorry... cu ^^
<amitk> pgraner: I am working on another pass at the configs and then enabling two OEM boards
<pgraner> amitk: ack
<pgraner> amitk: make sure you get with the mobile team to make sure everything is synced up. There has been alot of activity over the last few weeks.
<pgraner> amitk: good to have you back :-D
<pgraner> [TOPIC] LPIA tree
<amitk> pgraner: sure. I should have more to talk about next week.
<pgraner> sconklin: how r we doing?
 * apw thinks sconklin is on mute
<sconklin> I'm in the middle of rebasing our lpia tree with the latest from the netbook stuff
<sconklin> Once that's done, I'll make sure it builds :) and make it available for testing before I bring it back into the distro tree as a branch
<pgraner> sconklin: cool
<amitk> sconklin: jaunty, hardy _and_ intrepid?
<sconklin> hardy only at this point
<cking> sconklin: and all the various branches?
<sconklin> Once I get a feel for the scope of the divergence I'll address the others
<sconklin> Only looking at the oem group trees so far - a lot has to be resolved before we pull it all together
<pgraner> Ok we are about out of time so we need to move to the open discussion:
<sconklin> This is a major topic for Berlin
<pgraner> [TOPIC] Open Discussion
<apw> how did the arm porter go
<pgraner> Anyone have anything not on the agenda to discuss?
<pgraner> apw: I never heard back from elmo, thanks for the reminder
<pgraner> Anyone else?
<cking> nope
<sconklin> nope
<pgraner> [TOPIC] Next meeting
<pgraner> Next meeting will be same time, same channel.
<pgraner> Thanks everyone, we will call it done
<pgraner> #endmeeting
<lieb> bye
<smb_tp> cu
<amitk> bye
#ubuntu-meeting 2009-01-21
 * robbiew looks around for his friend, Mootbot
 * james_w waves
<TheMuso> Greetings all.
 * robbiew waves
 * mvo waves
 * robbiew steps away for a min
<robbiew> be back
<evand> hi
 * robbiew returns
<robbiew> hi
<robbiew> so...I see slangasek, james_w, TheMuso, mvo, and evand
<robbiew> and liw
<robbiew> :)
<liw> yo
<robbiew> Keybuck, cjwatson, and doko...here?
<doko_> pong
<robbiew> Keybuk?
<robbiew> cjwatson: hello sir :)
<cjwatson> sorry, dropped off this channel when I rebooted my server
<robbiew> no worries
<robbiew> just starting
<robbiew> anyone know why Mootbot is gone?
<robbiew> not that I miss it terribly :P
<Keybuk> robbiew: yup, just finished a call with Ken
<robbiew> Keybuk: ah..ok
<robbiew> Keybuk: any clarity on provided?
<robbiew> FYI - Agenda is here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/FoundationsTeam/Meetings/2009/0121
<robbiew> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/FoundationsTeam/Meetings/2009/0121#Agenda
<robbiew> to be specific
<robbiew> :)
<Keybuk> robbiew: Ken is going to go back to Intel to find out what the agenda for the call will be, and what deliverables they expect
<robbiew> cool...thx
 * mvo mubbles something that he is also in the developer week :)
<robbiew> heh
<robbiew> sorry
<mvo> np
 * robbiew corrects
<robbiew> slangasek, cjwatson: LTS looking good?
<robbiew> (fingers crossed)
<cjwatson> there was a glitch affecting upgrades from un-upgraded 8.04 systems (missing Priority fields in the Packages files on the CD, which broke python-apt; mvo added robustness to python-apt a while back, but that wasn't in hardy as released, and the missing fields were a bug anyway)
 * robbiew assumes the 26 bugs still there will move to the next update
<cjwatson> I fixed that this morning and Dave Morley has confirmed that upgrades are now good
<robbiew> ok
<slangasek> that does mean I've woken up to find that another round of ISO testing is required, but otherwise everything's good. :)
<mvo> thanks for fixing this cjwatson
<cjwatson> other than that slangasek has been emitting generally content vibes
<cjwatson> (afaict ...)
<doko_> had the gcc-4.3/libgomp issue fixed, I think it's pending review
<cjwatson> doko_: it'll be for .3 now, but thanks for that
<davmor2> slangasek: cjwatson: did you let server team know to retest?
 * mvo a pending "fix" for the version number display for .3 as well
<cjwatson> slangasek: any word on certification?
<slangasek> davmor2: not yet, I've been up for all of 15 minutes...
<cjwatson> davmor2: not yet, will do though
<slangasek> cjwatson: I have partial cert results, will prod for the rest today
<robbiew> we should also all admire cjwatson's beautiful work on the manifest list as well ;)
<robbiew> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/HardyReleaseNotes/ChangeSummary/8.04.2
<slangasek> robbiew: 26 bugs> yes, those bug states will be sorted today
<robbiew> slangasek: ok, thnx
<cjwatson> mdz has recommended a few more changes to that manifest, but it's not too bad now
<cjwatson> better not be, it took me nearly two full days ;-)
<robbiew> is there a way to keep it somewhat up-to-date as bugs get addressed?
<robbiew> thinking about how to make it easier
<slangasek> rolling it into the procedure when archive admins copy SRUs is the only thing I see
<slangasek> my fear is that this will make archive admins less inclined to copy SRUs due to the added time committment, though
<cjwatson> me too, and we'd have to correlate it with the list of all updates that had been released so far in order to cope with cases where people forgot to do them
<robbiew> ick...ok
<cjwatson> it would have helped to have an authoritative list of changelogs that actually ended up in -updates relative to .1
<cjwatson> I had to cobble it together from hardy-changes and the archive's status
<cjwatson> (because hardy-changes also includes proposed updates that failed verification)
<cjwatson> we could probably do some worthwhile scripting work before .3 to make the job easier
<robbiew> ok.  just figuring you don't want to spend 2+ days doing the same thing for .3
<cjwatson> even just "compare .2 and -updates, dump out all changelog deltas" would help
<cjwatson> definitely not
<robbiew> heh
<cjwatson> I did add a .madison-lite/config in ~/point-releases/ on cocoplum so that archive admins can use 'm --config-file ~/point-releases/.madison-lite/config' to see versions of packages in point releases
<cjwatson> might add that to the main config at some point
<robbiew> ok, so hopefully no last minute surprises
<robbiew> and .2 goes out on schedule
 * robbiew probably just jinxed it
<robbiew> moving on...Distro sprint team agenda
<robbiew> https://wiki.canonical.com/UbuntuPlatform/Sprints/Jaunty/Foundations
<robbiew> "agenda" is used loosely at this point
<robbiew> more like topics of discussion
<james_w> it looks like Scott's agenda currently :-)
<robbiew> heh...I have some stuff in there
<robbiew> well...just crossed out stuff
<robbiew> lol
<mvo> I need to add stuff there too, looks like the merge of the quirks code with lars is a good time
<evand> Anyone know if Julian's whole team will be there, or just mpt?  I'd ideally like to sit down with kwwii and work out some bits on the new timezone map and installer slideshow, but can always do that online if need-be.
<mvo> (and getting a chance to talk to people who know more about aufs)
<TheMuso> Anybody got notebook audio issues, I'll attempt to take a stab at helping solve them.
<robbiew> evand: I think the whole team is there
<robbiew> evand: but you should probably check with kwii
<evand> fantastic
<mvo> TheMuso: I have desktop audio issues currently (but I guess that does not count :)
<evand> will do
<robbiew> mvo: unless you want to bring your desktop
<robbiew> lol
<mvo> eh ... no :P
<TheMuso> mvo: Not for the sprint, but in general it doess. I'd be interested in hearing about them.
<slangasek> that's good; I sent Julian a request earlier for some of kwwii's time to do up an icon for pam-auth-update, which is blocking having that in the System->Administration menu currently
<slangasek> never heard back :(
<mvo> TheMuso: ok, I will ping you after the meeting
<robbiew> so I'll be working on the agenda, and having these items on the wiki will help
<TheMuso> mvo: Ok no problem.
<cjwatson> I may well have some server installer items, but I'm holding off putting them on the agenda for a few days to give myself a better idea of what I'm going to be able to solve before then
<robbiew> just throw stuff in...I'll do the cleanup work early next week
<robbiew> cjwatson: ok
<cjwatson> I've added LVM installation for now which seems fairly likely
<robbiew> cjwatson: steveg will be happy...thnx
<robbiew> next on the agenda is the feature status
<robbiew> I've notice some positive movement on blueprints/specs....thanks to those who've done tha
<robbiew> that
<robbiew> and to those who have not...eh hmm
<Keybuk> "hmm"? :)
<robbiew> please get them done, as I have my own "pressures" from above
<robbiew> and we all know which way $#!t rolls
<robbiew> down! lol
<robbiew> next is the usual bug work reminders
<robbiew> Alpha 4...Jaunty Targeted...buglist work
<cjwatson> I was trying to work out at what point we could consider the list for bug-fixing to be "done"
<cjwatson> there's certainly more to do, I don't deny that
<robbiew> "done" meaning no more adding?
<robbiew> or all fixed?
<cjwatson> as in the equivalent of spec-in-review for more normal goals
<robbiew> ah
<cjwatson> i.e. green on your page :)
<robbiew> cjwatson: sure
 * robbiew will change that
<cjwatson> well, I wasn't saying it should be green right now, just trying to work out where the cut-off lies
<robbiew> http://qa.ubuntu.com/reports/ogasawara/jaunty-buglist.html
<robbiew> right
<robbiew> I've noticed that this list hasn't had much "love" from the team
<robbiew> assuming these are important...hence their placement on the list
<robbiew> do I need to start going through each one...and "voluntelling" folks?
<Keybuk> the only bug assigned to me on there is old not because I'm lazy
<Keybuk> but because nobody knows why it happens
<robbiew> 15 foundations bugs without assignees
<cjwatson> I was thinking it was more important to have more than 25 bugs there total
<cjwatson> I think all the bugs there have a natural assignee; if it's OK, I'll go through today and assign them
<robbiew> cjwatson: ok, thnx
<robbiew> I'm not expecting them all to be fixed for jaunty
<cjwatson> (several of them are me)
<robbiew> though that would be nice....just that they have an assignee
<robbiew> so submitters (and mdz) know we are actively working them.
<cjwatson> bug 26694 is the only one I'm unsure about; who wants that?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 26694 in lsb "log_daemon_msg fails to output ..." [Medium,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/26694
<Keybuk> _o/
 * mvo assigns some to him
<robbiew> Keybuk: mvo: thanks
<robbiew> ok, so we can move on...don't want to harp on bugs too much ;)
<robbiew> sponsorship queue
<robbiew> dholbach mentioned it needs some "lovin"
<Keybuk> I did some sponsorship this week ;)
 * TheMuso freely admits he is lazy in that area.
<cjwatson> *blush* I completely forgot yesterday, I'll do an hour before I finish up today
<robbiew> Keybuk: thnx
<robbiew> yeah...I realize there's a ton of other work going on
<robbiew> but 1 hour a week should be doable
 * evand intends to spend more time on it tomorrow and next week
 * mvo did some sponsoring but it could be more
<robbiew> ok...I'm done shaming folks into sponsorship queue work
<robbiew> next is the EC2 stuff
<robbiew> kudos to mvo for his work there :D
<mvo> I played a bit with piuparts and ec2 but ran into issues (piuparts made it hang)
<slangasek> heh
<mvo> I'm experimenting with some alternative approaches
<james_w> mvo: I didn't experience that
<mvo> james_w: have you tried it too? we should talk about the way we did it after the meeting
<james_w> mvo: sure!
<robbiew> perhaps it should be on the Sprint agenda as well ;_
<robbiew> ;)
<mvo> the upgrade testing prototype works ok, but needs some lvove to overcome the 10g limit for ami images
<mvo> robbiew: good idea
<robbiew> mvo: can u add it
<cjwatson> I'd really appreciate a demo of how the ec2 stuff works from a developer POV at the sprint
<mvo> robbiew: yes, will do (after the meeting)
<cjwatson> I think that would be very helpful
<robbiew> cjwatson: I'll sync up with dendrobates
<mvo> I could give a bit of a overview, but I'm by no means a expert on it yet
<robbiew> unless mvo is an expert by then ;)
<robbiew> lol
<slangasek> kees gave us a pretty good demo last week, we could impose on him to do the same at the sprint
<robbiew> right
<evand> indeed, I'll second the request for an overview
<evand> err third
<robbiew> [ACTION] robbie to setup EC2 demo
<robbiew> for the Mootbot that is not there
<robbiew> lol
<james_w> I've been looking at the other AWS stuff as well
<robbiew> james_w: yeah...there's some neat stuff to play with
<mvo> james_w: what specificially?
<robbiew> BTW, the AWS charges are expensible
<james_w> mvo: s3, simpledb, sqs
<mvo> cool
<robbiew> ok..so on to "Good News"
<robbiew> cjwatson is on the Tech Board
<mvo> congrats!
<robbiew> it was a landslide victory
<TheMuso> Congrats!
<robbiew> lol
<robbiew> Change is coming...lol
<TheMuso> hehe
 * slangasek holds out his hands for some change
<robbiew> lol
<robbiew> and a big thanks to Keybuk, mvo, liw, and james_w for UbuntuDeveloperWeek work
<Keybuk> well
<evand> congratulations
<Keybuk> technically not
<Keybuk> Tech Board members aren't inaugurated until noon
<robbiew> lol
<Keybuk> which means Condaleeza Rice is on the TB for now
<cjwatson> but the vice tech board member is there from 11:30, right?
<cjwatson> or was that "tech board member for vice" - so hard to remember
<Keybuk> http://www.washingtoncitypaper.com/blogs/citydesk/2009/01/20/remember-when-biden-was-president/
<Keybuk> (context)
<Keybuk> (11) Accordingly, from 12:00 noon until 12:01 p.m. (when Vice President Biden took the oath of office and became Vice President), Condoleeza Rice was momentarily the Acting President of the United States, our first African-American President.
<robbiew> any other good news...or "OB"
<james_w> Keybuk uploaded the world in his ongoing quest for udev improvements
<robbiew> Keybuck: btw, that's actually wrong.  The swearing in is only ceremoniall, i.e. Obama was president before he took the actual oath.
<cjwatson> the page above does quote a constitutional law professor saying that it isn't just ceremonial :)
<evand> Apparently some constitutional scholars are suggesting that he retake the oath after the Chief Justice Roberts slip up.
<cjwatson> Keybuk: (BTW, I wonder which noon, given that I don't seem to be a member of the techboard team yet ;-) )
<robbiew> ah...but that's the beauty of constitutional law in the US...it's all about interpretation
<evand> (http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2009/01/20/MNAF15E20I.DTL)
<robbiew> any way...so this meeting is over
<robbiew> lol
<doko_> thanks
<evand> thanks!
<TheMuso> thanks.
<liw> merci
<Keybuk> robbiew: also Biden was actually sworn in seconds before noon; also apparently it's custom to do the real oath in private that morning just in case of problems; etc.
<mvo> thanks
<slangasek> thanks. :)
<james_w> thanks
<ara> hey guys
<davmor2> Hello
<bdmurray> hi
 * ogasawara waves
<pedro_> hello everybody!
<sbeattie> hey
<heno> hey!
<heno> welcome everyone
<heno> #startmeeting
<heno> ...
 * pedro_ kicks the bot
<davmor2> no bot
<heno> First item: * 8.04.2 testing
<heno> davmor2 has been doing ISO testing and cr3 HW coverage testing
<heno> davmor2: the ISO testing is complete?
<davmor2> stgraber: can you grab ltsp again it all got respun ta
<heno> I guess not :)
<davmor2> heno: No everything got respun
<davmor2> live is cover currently about 12 tests left on alt
<heno> davmor2: ok, are you around to help test the next round?
<davmor2> already testing
<heno> great, thanks
<heno> cr3: what's our coverage currently on hardy.2?
<schwuk> heno: reports from the last two hardy.2 images (amd64 and server) are on the wiki
<cr3> heno: most laptops and desktops have been tested, and about half servers
<heno> keeping in mind that the machines listed as 'Compatible' on http://webapps.ubuntu.com/certification/list/?release=8.04%20LTS are not essential to test at this point (but would be nice)
<cr3> heno: ETA for servers should be today
<davmor2> schwuk: is that with todays images?
<heno> cr3: ok - you've worked around the issue of the two blocking machines?
<cr3> heno: yep
<schwuk> davmor2: no
<davmor2> mind you not that much changed to be honest
<heno> We'll need to do an actual certification run with the final images next week as well
<heno> thanks, let's move on to:
<heno> * Wiki migration progress
<heno> davmor2 and ara have been working on this
<heno> schwuk: is working on a new theme and macros
<ara> I need to update the template in the spec with the latest davmor2's changes
<schwuk> heno: the content should be copied across in the timescales we discussed.
<davmor2> ara: you can take the template from http://testcases.qa.ubuntu.com/System/NetworklessInstall it just needs the image macro adding to the top I think it's correct
<heno> schwuk: can you remind me what timescale that was? before the sprint?
<ara> davmor2: ok, thanks :-)
<schwuk> heno: yes
<heno> So we have 3 broad categories of test cases now: Hardware, System and Applications
<heno> where System is a bit of a catch-all for things like usplash, etc.
<davmor2> schwuk: one thing is there any chance I can get my account upgraded to include remove and rename wiki pages on the new wiki please?
<heno> from those cases we then build test plans for ISO testing or other uses
<heno> we should run a session about this at the sprint
<schwuk> davmor2: drop me a mail and nag me
<heno> schwuk: do you have write access to the ACLs to grant access for davmor2?
<schwuk> heno: if I don't I soon will have :)
<heno> ok, great
 * heno looks forward to seeing the new theme too :)
<heno> any other items for the meeting?
<davmor2> heno: would it be worth setting up a bug for qa docs to ensure everything is covered and can be tracked?
<heno> davmor2: you mean an LP project to track QA doc issues?
<heno> I would think we could use a wiki page for that
<davmor2> heno: I don't know would that work I was think more like bug https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/kdebase-runtime/+bug/284915
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 284915 in kdebase-runtime "Khelpcenter missing docs list" [Low,Confirmed]
<schwuk> heno: I've made davmor2 an admin on the wiki
<heno> schwuk: great
<heno> davmor2: a bugs list for the doc team?
<heno> bdmurray: does that fit into the assignment list model?
<bdmurray> davmor2: I'm not sure I understand what your intent is
<davmor2> bdmurray: With the wiki change over I want to ensure that there is no missing cases/pages/info I thought that maybe a bug might work as it emails those assigned to it.  However if there is a more appropriate way I'm open to ideas
<heno> ah, ok
<heno> I think we'll just place a directory listing of all pages in Testing/Cases in a table and check them off when transferred successfully
<davmor2> okay np's
<heno> we should consider a project for the testcases wiki though to file wiki or general test case bugs
<heno> schwuk: is here a project ATM?
<heno> It would also make sense for theme and macro code
<ara> schwuk: you were going to set up a project, weren't you?
<heno> schwuk: if not, can you set up?
<heno> you get an action for that :)
<heno> anything else?
<schwuk> heno: sure
<cr3> checkbox package is in jaunty main
<heno> yay!
<ara> cr3: cool!
<cr3> no major changes were necessary, just the license that mentionned LGPL which is wrong
<heno> ok
<heno> then let's wrap up
<heno> thanks everyone!
<heno> #endmeeting
<ara> thanks!
<sbeattie> thanks
<heno> it's funny how the # command works for people, even when the bot is broken :)
 * Lns grabs a donut and coffee
<LaserJock> #startmeeting
<Lns> So I hear Michael Scott is going to drop in for some inspirational words...
<LaserJock> is the bot toast?
<nubae> heh
<nubae> well topic says no meetings scheduled
<nubae> thats probably why its not reacting
<LaserJock> right, probably because of the new calendar
 * aseigo puts on his fly suit and finds a good wall.
<LaserJock> ok, we'll go free-style then ;-)
<LaserJock> I've updated the agenda: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Edubuntu/Community/MeetingAgenda
<LaserJock> please everybody have a look
<LaserJock> hmm, I was hoping to get some other people here for the LP Teams bit
<nubae> well we need ogra, highvoltage for those right?
<Lns> I'm sure they'll be trickling in
<LaserJock> I think I'm the only person from the Edubuntu Council here
<LaserJock> nubae: and RichEd
<LaserJock> ok, well since aseigo is here let's look at "Working with KDE" first
 * morgs texts a reminder to highvoltage
<LaserJock> so Edubuntu has traditionally been Gnome-based + KDE Edu
<LaserJock> because we started out as an Ubuntu derivative
<Lns> ogra says "i'm quite busy but can be available on request to answer one or the other thing"
<LaserJock> Lns: ok, thanks
<LaserJock> but since we've restructured into an "educational addon layer" we are quite a bit less dependent on a particular DE
<LaserJock> so it makes sense for us to look at both the Gnome and KDE sides of things
<LaserJock> we've had an edubuntu-desktop-kde metapackage around for a while but we've not done much with it
<LaserJock> one of my goals for Jaunty is to make that roughly equivalent to edubuntu-desktop
<nubae> well, there are at least 2 apps that are in main, which were forgotten in intrepid
<LaserJock> that means doing some testing and replaceing Gnome apps with KDE equivalents where possible
<nubae> kde edu apps
<LaserJock> nubae: I don't think they were exactly forgotten, but yeah
<Ahmuck> replacing them.  is there a standard on what they should do ?
<LaserJock> Ahmuck: how do you mean?
<Ahmuck> replacing gnome apps with kde apps?
<Lns> Is it safe to assume that KDE/Ubuntu is as stable as Gnome, or integrated enough to where we won't have to worry about it so much on TCs?
<nubae> well, one problem I see is the dependencies that the apps sometimes pull in
<LaserJock> Ahmuck: I mean edubuntu-desktop-kde should be as much KDE as possible
<nubae> could be upwards of 200mb in some cases
 * jonathan1 stumbles in
<LaserJock> Lns: you mean KDE apps on Gnome?
<Lns> LaserJock: yeah, in general.. I'm no KDE expert by any means, but I do know that when launching KDE apps in Gnome, they tend to start all sorts of daemons, and i've had some issues in the past with that
<cjwatson> nubae: as a KDE add-on, I think it would be expected that KDE users would likely prefer the KDE-based educational applications where available, and likewise for GNOME
<highvoltage> can anyone paste in pvt what I missed? (sorry for being late- and thanks morgs for the sms)
<Lns> I dunno though, Im just talking from my minimal experience with it
<LaserJock> Lns: right
<LaserJock> despite there being quite a bit of improvments in using KDE apps on Gnome and vice versa, there are still some issues
<nubae> how would we do it then with the addon-cd?
<LaserJock> so I'm sort of trying to allow educators who want to run Kubuntu to do that without downloading a bunch of Gnome
<Lns> So how about running straight KDE over TC connections? Anybody have experience with that?
<nubae> create 2, one for Kde and one for Gnome?
<LaserJock> nubae: for now we need to just pick one, IMO
<nubae> oh, so u're suggesting migrating to kde then?
<LaserJock> I think maintaining 2 .isos is more than we or the release team want's to do
<LaserJock> no, not yet
<LaserJock> we can try to make things work on the 1 CD
<highvoltage> LaserJock: you know ther "marketing" type person will want to split it at some point ;)
<LaserJock> I'd have to talk with cjwatson and others perhaps about that
<LaserJock> we have quite a bit of room on the Cd
<nubae> but it doesn't stop the mass of dependencies
<LaserJock> the problem is that right now we have to assume that a person has ubuntu-desktop installed
<nubae> yah
<cjwatson> there are some technical problems with putting both on the one CD
<Lns> LaserJock: are you suggesting an add-on cd question at launch "Gnome or KDE?" type thing?
<LaserJock> Lns: no
<cjwatson> for an add-on CD, you need to assume a base set of packages or else you end up re-shipping the whole desktop
<nubae> right
<Lns> ah
<cjwatson> for the educational CD, we currently say "right, let's assume that ubuntu-desktop is already installed, and only ship the additional packages needed on top of that"
<Lns> can't it simply query the installed metapackages?
<cjwatson> it would get more complicated if you might want to assume either ubuntu-desktop or kubuntu-desktop
<LaserJock> right now I'm just saying that I want to develop edubuntu-desktop and edubuntu-desktop-kde so that both Ubuntu *and* Kubuntu users can beenfit from what we do
<cjwatson> Lns: you can hardly do that when building the CD image!
<cjwatson> you need to decide which .debs to put on the CD ...
<highvoltage> cjwatson: can't you ship all the direct dependencies for the applications, like the kde libraries and the gtk libraries, etc. so that if someone has either KDE or Gnome/Xubuntu they'll be fine?
<cjwatson> highvoltage: we could, but it would be much bigger and would probably stop fitting on a CD
<nubae> LaserJock: how would that work in practice though... what steps are needed to get to that point?
<highvoltage> cjwatson: ah
<Lns> cjwatson: what about a DVD? Or compressed image.. ?
<cjwatson> I have no direct evidence for this, having not checked
<highvoltage> Lns: debian packages are already compressed
<cjwatson> Lns: .debs are already compressed, and I've had feedback in the past that many schools are using older recycled computers without DVDs
<LaserJock> nubae: well, we need people testing and we want to work with KDE to make Kubuntu a better solution for educational users
<nubae> ok, so u are thinking for jaunty+1
<nubae> ?
<cjwatson> I haven't checked the size constraints, so this is just a guess. However, it seems to me that two CDs (one GNOME, one KDE) might be more feasible - but it does have undeniable maintenance problems
<LaserJock> well, we certainly can start for Jaunty
<highvoltage> I don't think the DVD-ROM issue is much of an issue anymore. Optical drives don't last long, and DVD drives have been around for a long time now.
<LaserJock> for now I want to not focus on the CD bit, that's got issues we'll have to think about in the future
<nubae> we have the danger that people in countries where there is little connectivity will be left behind if we force them to download massive dependencies
<LaserJock> right now the focus should be on what do we need to do to make educational users more comfortable on a Kubuntu desktop
<LaserJock> nubae: sure, but I can't please everybody, everywhere, today :-)
<LaserJock> so baby steps
<nubae> :p
<cjwatson> I got a recycled computer for my stepson with only a CD drive, just this weekend
<cjwatson> that's in the UK which I think is still considered a developed country
<LaserJock> aseigo has graciously agreed to come to the meeting
<highvoltage> LaserJock: so what does need to be done? are we looking at a kde theme, is there some kind of integration that needs to happen, do we need to get gtk apps prettier on Kubuntu?
<nubae> highvoltage: very few third world countries will have dvd drives as standrad
<nubae> standard
 * aseigo waves.
<LaserJock> I'd like to turn the floor over to him for a minute to introduce himself and some ideas that he's been working on
<highvoltage> hey aseigo
<nubae> hi aseigo
<LaserJock> highvoltage: I'll get to that after aseigo
<aseigo> LaserJock: thanks =)
<aseigo> ok, so .. for those who don't know me: i'm a KDE developer, lead dev on Plasma, work on kde libraries and various apps, and sit on the board of directors for our global non-profit foundation (KDE e.V.)
<aseigo> KDE and education is a really interesting story that's evolved fairly organically over the last 5 years
<aseigo> obviously, we have the KDE Edu project which has been interested primarily in the creation of small education-oriented desktop apps
<aseigo> we also have the KDE Kiosk system for user/group profiles
<aseigo> which provides UI lock down, config defaults, app menu customizations, etc, etc...
<aseigo> basically "define what's allowed and what isn't, define the defaults are, link users and groups of users to those profiles"
<aseigo> it uses a waterfall system so that you can assign people to multiple profiles, allowing creation of "generic" profiles and then more specific ones that get overlayed on the more generic ones.. etc.
<aseigo> it's easy to use and has some very deep integration into, e.g. config dialogs
<ogra> but is KDE only
<aseigo> the combination of these two things, the edu apps and the admin friendliness, along with the overall desktop presentation ended up leading to some rather large deployments in the edu area
<ogra> same as sabayon is gnome only
<aseigo> ogra: there was nothing in FOSS doing anything like this at the time..
<ogra> thats a big drawback of both tools
<ogra> (just a comment)
<aseigo> it's all based on the standard "INI" style configs, however, so isn't very specific to KDE
<aseigo> but yes, having multiple systems Sucks(tm)
<nubae> is there something that stops either being cross compatible?
<aseigo> nubae: technically? no.
<Lns> I agree - it would be really nice to see that kind of functionality cross-UI
<ogra> missing backends
<LaserJock> I think the primary problem is that they are nice *because* they integrate into the desktop
<nubae> so we could pick one, and have it work for both?
<aseigo> nubae: it would require implementing support for one system in both sets of apps, however
<highvoltage> LaserJock: we have quorum now that ogra is here, fwiw
<aseigo> the thing about lock down and profile management is that there is a lot of "hand work" needed... we have the benefit of KIO (something GNOME just recently started getting) which has allowed us to do protocol restrictions globally
<aseigo> so it has been a bit easier to accmplish these things with the KDE stack than some of the other projects out there, due to the design decisions
<aseigo> anyways ..
<aseigo> deployments ..
<highvoltage> did you just copy and paste that or do you type really fast? :)
<LaserJock> aseigo: ok, so can you touch briefly on your latest blog posts on education, etc.
<aseigo> the first Big Edu Deployment i became aware of was an 80k seat deployment in a university system in Brazil
<Ahmuck> ltsp ?
<aseigo> since then we've had Indiana in the states, Gran Canarias (a few 100,000 students, 40k seats), Brazil public system (50 million student, 59k labs, 8-16 seats in each lab)
<aseigo> etc..
<aseigo> so edu has become a HUGE segment for us, user base wise
<aseigo> ergo, why we care =)
<Ahmuck> standalone or ltsp ?
<ogra> Ahmuck, ltsp and kde4 dont really go well together
<aseigo> depends.. Gran Canarias is LTSP
<Lns> Windsor Unified School District (which is about 5 miles from me ;) )
<nubae> hang on, 50 million?
<aseigo> Brazil is stand-alone, but shared systems (multiple graphics cards, keyboards, laptops physically connected to a system under the desk)
<aseigo> nubae: yes
<highvoltage> ogra: how so? is it perhaps kde4 can't scale down on it's fancy graphics?
<aseigo> nubae: the entire brazilian public school system is serviced by KDE now
<nubae> ok, thats good amo when selling ltsp next...
<nubae> oh, not ltsp based?
<aseigo> nubae: the deployment will be complete this year; so far ~40k of the labs are in production
<ogra> highvoltage, afaik you cant disable all the composite functions, which makes it a nono
<aseigo> nubae: no, it's not unfortunately
<Ahmuck> wow
<Lns> aseigo: what OS are they running?
<Riddell> ogra: ?  of course you can
<ogra> but i'm no kde guy so i might be misinformed
<nubae> ah... must be a hell of a nightmare to maintain hten
<aseigo> Lns: debian based Brazillian distro
<ogra> Riddell, ah, thanks
<highvoltage> aseigo: isn't that br-linux?
<aseigo> ogra: all of the compositing can be turned off, in fact it does it automatically even
<LaserJock> stgraber said there were some issues with KDE4 and ltsp, this is one thing we'll definately want to look into
<Ahmuck> nice /me is kde fan
<aseigo> highvoltage: could be; different regions have different companies overseeing deployment and support, though, so i' not 100% sure if it's the same distro everywher
<ogra> it isnt
<highvoltage> ah ok
<ogra> we had several UDSes in spain
<ogra> i met all the edu distro guys there, every region builds its own
<aseigo> LaserJock: yes, there are some issues indeed. depending on the h/w it either works really well, or not very well. we're working on the latter with people who have such labs, though
<nubae> yah, Spain is a bit mad like that
<aseigo> hehe
<ogra> its tied to the money of the local government so they are supposed to build their own distros
<aseigo> yeah, the Gran Canaria project is just like brazil, only smaller
<nubae> yep, the problem for them is finding new names :-)
<aseigo> 40k seats, 300k-is people
<aseigo> ok.. so, where are we going from here?
<ogra> heard of guadalinex ?
<aseigo> (you ask .. ;)
<aseigo> ogra: of course =)
<ogra> 500000 seats ..
<ogra> :)
<aseigo> ogra: students, not seats iirc
<ogra> they doubled up over the last two yeras
<Lns> and they say it's not ready for the desktop.. =p
<Riddell> s/Gran Canaria/Canary Islands/
<ogra> right
<ogra> aseigo, seats afai
<ogra> k
<aseigo> Lns: that's just our cover story so MS/Apple don't REALLY start cmpeting against us ;)
<ogra> 2mio students ...
<aseigo> Riddell: right.. sorry =)
<highvoltage> iirc aseigo went with when we did the guidalinex tour
<aseigo> yes
<ogra> though they extended beyond students its also the complete givernment desktops now
<aseigo> i've been to spain a few times, and the Canaries once
<aseigo> ogra: cool
<ogra> spain rules wrt linux
<ogra> its just sad that they have these silly local rules ...
<Lns> SO.... ;)
<aseigo> so.. http://aseigo.blogspot.com/2009/01/purpose-specific-containments.html
<nubae> yep, they are building some great apps too, not just deploying
<ogra> else they would be able to join forces and rule the linux world
<aseigo> one of the use cases driving KDE4's desktop shell design has been education
<aseigo> one of the things that has become really obvious in our time with educators is that the business desktop layout doesn't scale well across age groups
<aseigo> Sugar is one manifestation of people trying to answer that problem
<aseigo> one of the things i wanted to avoid was having to support a education specific desktop shell from the ground up
<morgs> yeah
<aseigo> that simply will never happen
<aseigo> it is too much work and it's not generic enough to get enough testing and involvement
<nubae> well sugar has its own people supporting it
<nubae> we have enough deployments to keep us going
<Lns> aseigo: so are you saying you're planning on bringing the benefits of KDE lockdown/profiles cross-shell? =)
<aseigo> well, not really.. i don't have much say in what other people decide to do.. and cross-project outreach goes only so far, unfortunatley =(
<aseigo> *but* what we did was make Plasma modular so that it is easily dismantled and put back together with various components (even on the fly)
<aseigo> so the desktop itself is a few hundred lines of code on top of the framework
<aseigo> (e.g.)
<nubae> yeah plasma seems great for making mini learning objects
<aseigo> and you can write in Python, Ruby, JavaScript, etc.. making development fast, deployment simple
<highvoltage> nubae: LaserJock also points that out quite often
<aseigo> so in the Canaries, they had this wallpaper with colourful boxes and they manually placed start icons on these colourful boxes
<aseigo> each box was for a different subject
<aseigo> neat idea, stupid to have to do it by hand
<aseigo> Plasma lets us do it "for real" with very, very little code
<Lns> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plasma_(KDE) for anyone not sure about plasma (like me)
<aseigo> and you get the lock down and config for free
<nubae> can u explain that a bit further?
<aseigo> ah, Plasma is the underlying framework for the KDE4 desktop shell (though apps like Amarok are also using it now)
<aseigo> it's the "engine" on which we put together primary user interfaces, such as the desktop and panels that you see when you log in
<aseigo> it's rather flexible and very modular... supports multiple languages for programming ... is SVG based for graphics...
<nubae> that is cool
<nubae> like sugar...
<aseigo> it also supports third party widget systems such as Google Gadget, MacOS Dashboard and Enlightenment 17 Edje
<aseigo> nubae: yeah, there are some similarities indeed
<highvoltage> the MacOS widget support is quite cool
<LaserJock> very
<nubae> oh, that works already?
<aseigo> so we've built MID interfaces with it, Amarok2 (obviously) and the KDE4 shell
<aseigo> it runs on extremeley limited hardware; it's just fine n the N810, for instance
<nubae> I take this all stems from karamba
<aseigo> it's slow on the FreeRunner, though. boots faster than E does on it though ;0
<aseigo> nubae: no.. we support karambas as well, and we certainly took some lessons from karamba.. one of the karamba devs works on plasma, actually =)
<aseigo> but it's fairly different from SK itself...
<nubae> k
<aseigo> ah, and absolutely *everything* is a widget
<aseigo> from the pager to the taskbar to the clock to the app menu, etc
<aseigo> there is no "this is a panel thing, but this is a wiget"
<aseigo> er, widget
<aseigo> there is One Object Model
<highvoltage> oh wow. I didn't know that *and* I read aseigo's blog.
<aseigo> which means nothing is baked into the system that can't be as easily changed or swapped about as any other "desktop widget"
 * ScottK has a teenager that loves fooling with widgets on her desktop.
<aseigo> and yeah, we have neat things like a dashboard just like mac os
<aseigo> ok, so what does this mean for edu?
<highvoltage> LaserJock: we have to do EC now or we'll lose ogra
<aseigo> well, it means we can, with relatively little effort (at least from the coding and artwork side =) and very, very little maintainance overhead (the bulk of the tech is in the framework, and that gets pounded on by traditional desktop users) we can create someting specific to various educational audiences
<aseigo> we're also looking right now at edu management apps
<LaserJock> highvoltage: ok, I think we'll do some email stuff, that way we catch RichEd as well
<aseigo> there'll be an announcement soonish about a classroom lab manager (creat accounts, monitor work being dne, etc)
<highvoltage> LaserJock: ok, good.
<aseigo> it's functional, kde4 based and will be GPL
<nubae> aseigo: something common across apps?
<aseigo> we are also revisting the Kiosk configuration tool
<aseigo> making something a bit more sane and extensible than the KDE3 one
<nubae> that is precisely what educators I have spoken to ask for...
<aseigo> nubae: yes, the manager is app agnostic
<aseigo> but with all the power of kiosktool
<nubae> so it would manage the levels at which students work, reporting, that kind of thing?
<Ahmuck> appnostic
<aseigo> this is our edu roadmap for 2009 (well, that and continue kicking ass and taking names with the kde edu suite =)
<aseigo> Ahmuck: oooh, i like it
<aseigo> our motivation is simple: we have a stupidly huge user base in the edu space
<aseigo> as the opportunity has arrisen, we're very interested in working with edubuntu
<nubae> yeah clearly the kde-edu suite takes the crown when it comes to the edu apps
<aseigo> we'd like to have broad, 2 way communication between the educators that use edubuntu and what we're doing as we do it
<aseigo> we'd love to have "early adopter" testers (actually, some have already signed up, so we're making good progress there already)
 * Ahmuck volunteers testing lab
<aseigo> and we *need* input from the people who will rely on the software as we design it
<aseigo> i am a software developer and karaoke singer (one of them pays my bills, the other is best experienced with alcohol at the ready ;)
 * alkisg wants ltsp to work out of the box in kubuntu
<aseigo> i am not an educator
<Ahmuck> where do we sign up for testing?
<aseigo> and as such we really need to build a community based on sharing experiences and efforts that pulls in educators
<aseigo> good question =)
<nubae> exactly what I was saying yesterday
<aseigo> so.. first order of action is that we'll be setting up a mailing list for those who want to get involved..
<aseigo> it will not be a "deveoper list" though developers will be there
<Ahmuck> i'm looking at setting up vidoe testing records like another distro did, where audio and video is recorded for user reactions
<nubae> we must listen to educators.... too often apps are made without their input
<aseigo> it will be a feedback, coordination, design list
<aseigo> nubae: amen, brother.
<Ahmuck> sign me up :)
<nubae> sugar is just as guilty of this
<aseigo> and i'd like to rely on you guys to figure out how best to coordinate the community around edubuntu already
<aseigo> we also have wiki space, etc, but i'm sure you already have a lot of stuff set up and being used already
<aseigo> i'll rely on your guidance in those matters
<aseigo> i just had a meeting with the kde edu lead yesterday, and she's passing this around the kde edu community as well
<aseigo> we won't be using the kde edu list for this, however, as the scope isn't quite right
<aseigo> ok, i think that was my "quick" intro ;)
<aseigo> oops. heh
<highvoltage> wow, that was super-quick indeed! (for aseigo)
<LaserJock> he kept it under and hour
<nubae> great stuff...
<aseigo> hehe
<aseigo> me, loquacious? pah!
<aseigo> ;-P
<LaserJock> aseigo: thanks so much for dropping by and giving us that intro
<LaserJock> very informative and helpful
<aseigo> np... i re-assume my fly on the wall status unless prodded =)
<morgs> nubae: Sugar does have the iaep (it's-an-education-project) ML alongside the sugar-devel list, although I haven't seen many educators on it recently. Not sure if they're just lurkers...
<LaserJock> ok, so we should reall move on
<nubae> morgs: I was at a deployment 2 days ago, and it was a fiasco in terms of presenting the activities that exist
<LaserJock> we can have more KDE discussion later and on the mailing list
<LaserJock> I'll try to keep people informed as I get info as well
<morgs> nubae: yeah... OLPC != Sugar... and Sugar's been focusing on a small subset of activities...
<highvoltage> so next up is Sugar status report
<nubae> sugar itself as a UI is wonderful and everyone loves it... but the activities need lots of work... I've made notes, and they will be posted to IAEP soon
<LaserJock> highvoltage: ok, right
<LaserJock> morgs: how is Sugar sitting for Jaunty?
<morgs> LaserJock: Here's the status of Sugar.
<morgs> The stable version is 0.82.x which we got into Intrepid, although due to feature freeze and lag in debian's packaging we didn't get the final point releases in, resulting in a lot of support issues which I still haven't been able to work on much.
<morgs> Current upstream development is an unstable 0.83.x release series,
<morgs> leading to a stable 0.84.x set of releases.
<nubae> under ubuntu a good 50% of apps dont even start up
<morgs> We just hit feature freeze upstream, so it's definitely time to get it into Jaunty.
<LaserJock> morgs: ok, so is 0.82.x bug fix only?
<morgs> yes
<LaserJock> ok, so those probably have decent SRU potential
<morgs> The changelogs aren't well written, but it should be possible to log all the bugs from the changelogs and then SRU the point releases...
<LaserJock> k
<morgs> Debian (basically 1 guy) have chosen to stick with the 0.82.x stable releases, which means we haven't had 0.83.x development releases to sync.
<LaserJock> right, so are you wanting to jump ahead of Debian on that?
<morgs> Therefore we are now forking debian's packaging to package 0.83.x ourselves, so that we can get a decent release packaged before Jaunty feature freeze.
<LaserJock> k
<morgs> Then getting to 0.84.0 should be just bug fixes
<LaserJock> ok, how about hulahop?
<morgs> Right now, the packaging is just being done by lfaraone (formerly known as ffm) - a high school student - and myself.
<morgs> And we're not managing much of it, but I'm trying to now put in a lot of effort.
<morgs> LaserJock: hulahop got into intrepid-proposed, and the update works - I must still test on hardy, but I need to set up a vm for that.
<morgs> The upload took a long time to get into *-proposed from when you did it...
<LaserJock> ok, so 2 things: 1) we can send out a call for packaging volunteers and 2) if you need sponsorship just subscribe me to the bug and/or poke
<morgs> Thanks
<LaserJock> morgs: yeah, the archive admins were busy I think, that's why it took a while
<LaserJock> morgs: anything else on the Sugar front?
<nubae> one thing from the educator side is that schools want to be able to run a decent working sugar on a stick
<Ahmuck> ?
<morgs> sugar on a stick = liveusb
<Ahmuck> why?
<nubae> right now that is quite impossible, but how long do u think it will take before we have something decent?
<morgs> Boot off USB, then you don't need to install Sugar, and you can run it on "windows"
<LaserJock> stick it in any computer and you've got Sugar-on-the-go
<highvoltage> to avoid network congestion / hard disk failure probably
<morgs> and then take it home, and carry on using it there...
<highvoltage> nubae: what prevents you to run sugar from a usb disk?
<nubae> nothing
<nubae> but its pretty unusable
<highvoltage> ah
<nubae> no networking, half the activities crash out
<LaserJock> nubae: just app issues?
<nubae> no word, no read
<morgs> It's the easiest way to *try* Sugar, I'm not convinced it's feasible for every day use - people are actively working on it for Fedora
<highvoltage> that's quite odd since it runs from flash on the olpc as well
<nubae> its a ubuntu issue
<morgs> nubae is talking about current Sugar on Intrepid
<highvoltage> ok
<morgs> We need work on Abiword to get it built with libabiword, otherwise the Sugar Write doesn't work
<nubae> and all that depend on that
<nubae> which is a lot
<morgs> and tomeu is busy upstreaming our evince patches to try and get Read to be able to work too
<morgs> those are core activities, and it will help very much to be able to package them for Jaunty.
<nubae> yeah then we'd have something usable
<LaserJock> morgs: ok, let's start a thread on edubuntu-devel about the abiword thing
<morgs> Great.
<LaserJock> just so I've got something clear to work on
<LaserJock> I'm not positive about what the problem/solution is right now
<LaserJock> but we can figure that out and poke/work were needed
<LaserJock> ok, so lets move on
<LaserJock> I want to briefly talk about Brainstorm
<LaserJock> I sent an email to the edubuntu lists yesterday about it
<highvoltage> as in, the unmaintained list of ubuntu ideas?
<LaserJock> but I think it could be a very nice way for us to encourage feedback from contributors
<LaserJock> highvoltage: exactly, but it's looking very nice and it has both and Edubuntu section and an Education category
<LaserJock> the Edubuntu section only has 1 item right now
<LaserJock> I think it would be useful to point people there
<highvoltage> yeah
<LaserJock> it also now allows for multiple "solutions" that people can rate
<LaserJock> and of course there's develper feedback, etc.
<nubae> by people u mean educators?
<LaserJock> yes
<LaserJock> anybody
<LaserJock> so it's nice because it's free to us and we don't have to maintain it :-)
<LaserJock> we can have app suggestions, etc. there
<LaserJock> anyway, so I thought I'd just point that out and encourage people to use it
<LaserJock> so http://brainstorm.ubuntu.com/education/ and http://brainstorm.ubuntu.com/edubuntu/
<LaserJock> ok, moving on
<LaserJock> the next thing on the agenda is "Should Edubuntu start accepting donations? "
<highvoltage> LaserJock: where does that come from?
<LaserJock> highvoltage: the agenda item?
<highvoltage> yes.
<LaserJock> I thik that's nubae's
<nubae> think Im guilty
<LaserJock> nubae: right?
<nubae> :p
<Ahmuck> donations for what?
<nubae> I just think that the core devs do a lot of hard work
<LaserJock> I think that was in the context of "Canonical no longer pays for an Edubuntu developer and there are users/organizations around the world that may want to help out"
<nubae> and if we want better support in schools and such, they should be able to get donations at least
<highvoltage> for edubuntu to accept donations it would require some kind of account, and lots of other things. or it would have to come to canonical. perhaps the questions would be /can/ edubuntu accept donations
<Ahmuck> if i donate 10,000 do i get my own dev?
<LaserJock> highvoltage: right, that's part of it
<highvoltage> Ahmuck: gnome has an adopt-a-dev program :)
<aseigo> .. who will bring you coffee in the morning. =)
<nubae> edubuntu is not affiliated with canonical as I understand it
<highvoltage> nubae: it is quite, actually
<LaserJock> nubae: well, I wouldn't say that
<LaserJock> Canonical does a whole lot for us
<nubae> ok, I must be missing something here
<LaserJock> the point your making is that they don't support a developer
<nubae> right, and the donations should go to devs
<Ahmuck> who is a dev?
<LaserJock> the *do* support us a lot with hardware (hosting websites, the .iso, etc.) and the whole Ubuntu infrastructure
<nubae> so that there is motivation
<Ahmuck> coders, testers ?
<nubae> LaserJock: sure
<highvoltage> I don't think we're in a position atm where, even if we were allowed to by canonical, administer funds and pay a salary with it. (just mho)
<LaserJock> well, one *could* have a bounty system
<nubae> highvoltage: it could be similar to how codeweavers works with wine
<LaserJock> though that didn't work so well it seemed when Canonical tried it on Launchpad
<highvoltage> ubuntu had a bounty system way way back. it used to work through launchpad
<nubae> they donate to have certain wish list features included
<Ahmuck> i have mixed feelings about this.  it is my opinion that real software development really starts happening when there is money involved, but the question is how does one decide who gets what?
<nubae> based on who works on the items
<nubae> I dont think thats too hard
<Ahmuck> i've seen bounty programs
<highvoltage> I think it's a bit of an insult to some programmers if you say "hey, do this that will take you 20 hrs to do, and I'll give you $10 for it!"
<Ahmuck> a bounty/reward and if someone wants it develped further they put in the money and the first dev team to get to the goal?
<highvoltage> I think that's why the bounty system failed
<Ahmuck> ah
<LaserJock> it seems to me that a better idea
<LaserJock> is what Canonical does
<nubae> highvoltage: the idea is that they'd get what they pay for
<highvoltage> nubae: ok
<LaserJock> you're a company or non-profit and you hire people to get done what you want to get done
<morgs> mako wrote a paper on why bounties are negative for software development communities, I'll see if I can dig it up
<LaserJock> so if somebody wanted to start a company/NPO that wanted to hire devs to work on Education then go for it
<Ahmuck> i've used a number of apps and some of them have been real buggy.  as a result i've put in lots of time logging error messages, etc.  would htat be devlopment?
<nubae> not really
<nubae> fixing the bugs would be though
<LaserJock> but I'm not sure that Edubuntu itself is really in a place, nor does it itself want to be in a place, to accept those sorts of donations
<nubae> :-)
<morgs> http://mako.cc/writing/funding_volunteers/funding_volunteers.html
<morgs> http://tieguy.org/blog/2006/06/18/crowding-out-of-intrinsic-motivations-aka-the-bounty-problem/
<LaserJock> morgs: thanks
<highvoltage> nubae: I like the idea of being able to reward a developer in a monetary way
<highvoltage> nubae: but I don't think that Edubuntu needs the burden of administering funds
<morgs> For that sort of task, people seem to say that tshirts/swag/travel costs/hardware are better ways to give incentives
<nubae> highvoltage: there I agree
<highvoltage> can we perhaps think about it over the next week and talk about it again?
<LaserJock> I've thought of like having Amazon wishlists somewhere where people can get a book for a dev
<nubae> how about if the dev assigned to particular tasks is mentioned somewhere and gets funded via paypal or something directly
<highvoltage> LaserJock: now *that* sounds like a good idea
<nubae> LaserJock: right!
<LaserJock> in that case it's "heah, I appreciate what you've done, thanks"
<LaserJock> rather than "if you do X I'll give you money"
<highvoltage> perhaps we could get amazon, etc to sponsor things
<Ahmuck> i like the book idea
<Ahmuck> or the swag idea
<LaserJock> ok, so somebody start a thread on edubuntu-devel please :-)
 * highvoltage nominates nubae 
<nubae> but the devs that have contributed in which ways would need to be mentioned then
<LaserJock> we can throw that around for a while
<LaserJock> nubae: not necessarily
<nubae> ok...
<LaserJock> we can discuss it on the list
<highvoltage> moving on?
<LaserJock> ok, next item is "Which apps should we target for inclusion from Jaunty onwards?"
<LaserJock> I *think* we're kinda taking care of that
<highvoltage> LaserJock: I'd hope that you would now, since you're the seed maintainer :)
<LaserJock> nubae has sent some ideas to the list
<nubae> well, what we need is reviewers
<nubae> to check out the software and say whether it is worthy of inclusion
<LaserJock> what I kinda want to do is let people who have an interest in a particular app be responsible for getting it into Main if they want it there
<LaserJock> I'm more than happy to help that out
<highvoltage> I can't find nubae's post :/
<LaserJock> but I don't have time for "please include X, Y, and Z, kthanksbye"
<LaserJock> highvoltage: it might be kinda buried
<highvoltage> I'll find it later. What kind of ideas were they though?
<LaserJock> we don't have a lot of time to get MIRs done
<LaserJock> so I'd like to get people started on them as soon as possible
<Ahmuck> anki
<nubae> highvoltage: replacement for screem is the title
<highvoltage> nubae: ah ok, yes I got that one
<highvoltage> nubae: well, quanta will be a good replacement for that on the kde desktop ;)
<nubae> yes and if installed on gnome it pulls in 200mb of deps
<nubae> ;)
<LaserJock> stellarium, gbrainy, salasaga, etc.
<nubae> but really the point was, we need a coding app and a WYSIWYG app
<LaserJock> I think if we got say 4-5 apps that cover areas that are currently lacking in Main I think we'd be good
<LaserJock> bluefish is another one
<nubae> yah
<nubae> and we can't forget the server side
<nubae> we should look at including mahara
<LaserJock> anyway, I suggest each person that want's an app or apps in for Jaunty start a thread on their apps
<nubae> along with moodle
<nubae> and ejabberd
<LaserJock> I'm more than happy to do a quick sanity check review to see what's likely to make it
 * ScottK is a big fan of Quanta.
<LaserJock> then we can narrow down our selection and start filing MIRs
<LaserJock> sound good?
<nubae> yup
<LaserJock> the other aspect is the Universe app selection
<LaserJock> on my TODO list is to make a bzr branch for seeds for our Universe selection
<highvoltage> LaserJock: not that I have anything against going in main, of course, but we can still have universe packages as part of the edubuntu metapackages, right/
<highvoltage> ok that kind of answers my question
<LaserJock> no
<LaserJock> we're going to do universe separately
<LaserJock> so edubuntu-desktop and edubuntu-desktop-kde will be Main-only for now
<highvoltage> ok
<highvoltage> sorry I didn't realise that
<LaserJock> but we'll have another set of -preschool, -primary, -secondar, and -tertiary
<LaserJock> well, it's just gonna make a mess if I try to not do that for Jaunty at least
<Ahmuck> edubuntu-desktop-gnome?
<LaserJock> Jaunty +1 we can try to figure that out
<highvoltage> ok
<LaserJock> I've already made a mess with the seeds as cjwatson knows :-)
<LaserJock> but I need help on 2 things
<LaserJock> 1) what to call the metapackages, edubuntu-* , edubuntu-extras-* are ones I've been thinking of
<LaserJock> 2) we need to know what apps to put in the seeds
<nubae> no extras
<Ahmuck> what would extras be?
<highvoltage> LaserJock: do you have a wiki page for that currently?
<LaserJock> it's just extra edu stuff that's not in Main/on the CD
<LaserJock> highvoltage: no, I don't :(
<nubae> just a word to describe the packs
<LaserJock> I need some help there
<nubae> well shouldnt we put that on the main edubuntu page?
<highvoltage> well we know there's going to be an edubuntu-desktop and possibly an edubuntu-desktop-kde
<LaserJock> one aspect is that I'm desperately needing to focuse on my PhD so I'm trying to give you guys as much responsibility as possible
<LaserJock> I'm likely to be down to 1-2 hr/day of *buntu time
<Ahmuck> heh, i'd be focusing on the PhD myself
<LaserJock> nubae: eventually
<highvoltage> wow, I wish I had 1-2 hr/day of *buntu time :/
<LaserJock> what we need is just a simple working list of apps that are in decent shape and are useful for people
<LaserJock> highvoltage: yeah, well, it's a big cut-back for me
<nubae> ok, well I already started listing the apps in edubuntu.org format for all edu apps
<nubae> so I can paste that to the edubuntu wiki
<LaserJock> nubae: ok, great
<LaserJock> email edubuntu-devel when you get that
<LaserJock> then we can start adding/removing things
<LaserJock> and I'll get the packages uploaded soon
<nubae> ok, but can people help me testing the apps out
<LaserJock> sure
<nubae> we shoudnt be putting all the edu apps in, just the ones that work
<LaserJock> just start with a list
<nubae> ok
<Ahmuck> nubae: i can
<LaserJock> we can then start reviewing them
<nubae> ok, well I can make a big list, and we start knocking them off from there
<LaserJock> right, good
<LaserJock> ok, well, I think that's about it
<LaserJock> I need to get going
<nubae> cool, then can go and eat :-) its evening meal time over here
<LaserJock> I'll be sending out meeting minutes at some point soonish
<LaserJock> so .... meeting over
 * Lns claps
<LaserJock> thanks for coming everybody
<highvoltage> *bong*
<highvoltage> LaserJock: is lns an edubuntu-member yet?
<Lns> yeah, wassa upa wita data
<highvoltage> Lns: please put it on the agenda for the next meeting
<Lns> highvoltage: ok
<nubae> ah me too btw!
<nubae> and I kinds should be a edubuntu-website member too :p
<Lns> Should I take out the discussed topics from today?
<LaserJock> highvoltage: right, we need an EC first
<LaserJock> Lns: yes, please
<Lns> k, done
<Lns> yikes...ubuntu.com seems real slow from my end
#ubuntu-meeting 2009-01-22
<lool> Hmm I wasn't here for some reason
<ogra> a good reason ?
<persia> There is no good reason
 * lool waves
 * StevenK shores
 * persia quashes humor
 * Hobbsee hands out life jackets
 * ogra coughs
<lool> Folks, I'll have to leave earlier today (need to go to the dentist for 2pm)
<persia> OK.  Let's get started.
<persia> #startmeeting
<persia> Agenda is at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileTeam/Meeting/2009/20090122
<persia> Last week's action items:
<persia> ogra, Can we close the touchscreen spec item?
<ogra> yep
<persia> Cool.
<persia> lool, You had an action item to finish specs.  Do you still need that?
<lool> My specs: done except for recovery-partition where I have to collect some input from 2 people
<lool> persia: it's ok I don't need if I can grab you to review the r-p one
<persia> And I had an action to make sure all the specs had a driver, which I put in the Roadmap.
<persia> So, action items closed.
 * ogra would like to see StevenK reviewing the arm-image spec ... since he has to do half of the implementation :)
<persia> Next up: Roadmap.
<StevenK> Err?
<ogra> oh, i jumped ahead :)
<persia> Nobody added status to anything as we thought we might last week, so we'll go through them quickly.
<persia> Since lool is leaving early, let's do his first
<persia> mid-display-manager
<lool> Spec completed with your review; now needs approval and implementation
<persia> lpia-versus-i386
<lool> Spec completed with your review; now needs approval and perhaps discussion with Foundation folks
<persia> OK.  You want an action for the discussion?
<lool> To see if we can make something useful out of lpia; otherwise we keep it as documentation and lpia remains in maintenance mode
<ogra> not kernel folks as well ?
<lool> persia: If you like
<lool> ogra: The kernel is orthogonal to the architecture
<ogra> well
<lool> It's just named lpia for confusion
<ogra> heh
<persia> lool, Are you expecting to do it for next week, or is it a long-term thing?
<ogra> we're good at that
<cjwatson> I have no problem with you guys changing the lpia compiler flags as long as you don't expect us to recompile the whole archive all at once
<lool> persia: I might or might not do it next week depending on availability, but I expect it will not be possible to change toolchain stuff before jaunty+1
 * persia doesn't file an action
<lool> cjwatson: I was expecting this should be deferred to jaunty+1
<lool> cjwatson: I had in mind to setup a meeting with doko and you to discuss these
<cjwatson> sure, or you could just talk to doko directly, he knows the field better than I
<lool> Ok
<lool> cjwatson: Do we have rebuild testing on lpia?  I guess not
<lool> My fear if we change the flags is that we might have some bad surprizes when we actually need to upload random stuff at the end of th cycle or in upadtes
<lool> Anyway, will bring it up with doko
<persia> lool, That could be probably be arranged on the ubuntuwire rebuild tester, with appropriate scheduling, if we don't mind a chroot'd buildd.
<persia> Next up: recovery-partition
<lool> I don't think we'd mind
<lool> To finish spec-ing of r-p I need to try out superm1's USB image and discuss some implementation details with Evan
<cjwatson> lool: I thought we did but am not sure; infinity would know
<lool> or ubuntu-installer at large; but I suspect a one to one will be more effective and he attended
<lool> cjwatson: Okay thanks
<persia> Going back to the order on the wiki page
<persia> offline-installer: ogra
<lool> (I dropped Adam an email)
<ogra> in progres
<ogra> s
<persia> Issues, concerns, needs from others?
<ogra> http://people.ubuntu.com/~ogra/arm/build-arm-rootfs had a lot of community testing and i plan to make something like that the backend for the armel offline builds
<StevenK> I thought the dailies would be the backend ...
<StevenK> Speaking of
<ogra> i have to try out the other arches
 * StevenK digs up the livefs build logs
<ogra> StevenK, thats arm-only images and the tool i write for that one will only merge livefs with kernel
<ogra> offline installer will leave you with a configured system image
<ogra> (user set up, hostname, timezone, kbd and language configured)
<StevenK> Bleh! evolution is broken
<ogra> while the liveimages will start into a live session
<lool> StevenK: News@11
<lool> :-P
<ogra> and you have to run ubiquity
<StevenK> I knew the armel livefs log would be a train wreck
 * StevenK tickles lool 
<cjwatson> StevenK: I already fixed that
 * lool giggles
<cjwatson> it's rebuildng
<cjwatson> +i
<StevenK> cjwatson: Ah. I was going to check, but cool. :-)
<cjwatson> it wasn't evolution's fault directly, it was due to a Soyuz bug that's also being fixed
<ogra> any other questions for offline-installer ?
<StevenK> cjwatson: It should finish in time for the 20090128 daily build? :-P
<ogra> persia, ?
<ogra> did you fall over ?
<persia> ogra, No, just waiting for discussion to settle before moving on.
<ogra> ah
<cjwatson> StevenK: what's significant about 28?
<StevenK> cjwatson: It's six days away :-P
<persia> unr-handling-jaunty: StevenK
<cjwatson> this morning's livefs build got stuck on a lock, but elmo poked it
<cjwatson> anyway, the short answer is "I'm paying attention and sorting things out iteratively"
<StevenK> persia: In progress, waiting for code drops, etc, hand wave
<persia> StevenK, Need anything?  Blocked on anything?
<StevenK> cjwatson: I know, I'm poking fun. :-)
<StevenK> persia: Yes, more hours in the day. Please fix.
 * persia adds "searching for another timezone" to the todo list
<ogra> StevenK, thats solvable by staying in motion
<persia> mid-application-switcher: persia
<ogra> just hop timezones
<persia> Spec is mostly complete.  I need to coordinate with njpatel to get the specifics for implementation.
<persia> mobile-setup-wizard: persia
<persia> Yet entirely untested.  Expecting to get initial results this week
<persia> [ACTION] persia to get initial results for mobile-setup-wizard
<ogra> wasnt that just oem-config for small screens ?
<persia> mobile-team-seed-management: StevenK
<persia> ogra, Yep.  Needs testing though.
<ogra> ah
<StevenK> persia: I'd like to whinge about moving the seeds, but other than that
<StevenK> I like them in -core-dev. They're happy in -core-dev. :-P
<persia> StevenK, Well, whinge all you want.  Delay as long as you like.  I think it's required to integrate with ArchiveReorg, but that can follow that schedule.
<persia> (until there is no core-dev)
<persia> ship-seed-for-mobile-images: StevenK
<StevenK> Implemented.
<StevenK> May require tweaks and such, but it's done.
<lool> persia: Let's have a last status column on the roadmap and stop bringing up the implemented specs according to their "last status"
<lool> Or just a status column actually
<StevenK> Unless someone wants to
<persia> lool, Once something is all done, I thought we'd just remove it.
<lool> persia: Hmm okay
<persia> NCommander, You're listed as ship-seed-for-mobile-images drafter: could you update the Test/Demo plan and get this tested so it goes away?
<NCommander> Sure I can do that
<persia> [ACTION] NCommander to take over driving ship-seed-for-mobile-images to close it
<persia> general-resolution-for-touchscreen: ogra
<ogra> xorg team notified me that the right evdev and hal changes are in
<ogra> spec pending approval
<StevenK> persia: Ah, excellent.
<ogra> gui implementation pending
<StevenK> persia: (ship-seed-for-mobile-images)
<persia> arm-softboot-loader: NCommander
<NCommander> Ugh, hit a serious snag, since I no longer believe kboot can meet our needs, even if we were extensively to hack it
<ogra> NCommander, erm ?
<ogra> would you elaborate ?
<NCommander> It uses /etc/fstab vs. autodetection to find devices, and full access to the busybox shell is provided due to the nature of implementation (i.e., I can type ls at the kboot prompt, and it works)
 * NCommander is typing :-P
<lool> NCommander: I think you need to debunk kboot in your spec and move on to petitboot if it's any better
<NCommander> petitboot is based on kboot
<NCommander> same problem.
<lool> I know
<lool> What I don't know is how much kboot remains in petitboot
 * ogra doesnt see the problem ... you can ls in initramfs as well if you boot with break= statement
<lool> If you tell me too much, just list petitboot as a non-option as well
<NCommander> I'll look at it, but getting petitboot down to 1.5MB is going to be extremely difficult
<lool> NCommander: What matters is finding the best existing base to start from IMO
<ogra> ad autodetection is fixable via a minimal initramfs containing libvolid
<lool> Ok it's cut off time for me; /me goes teeth rebrushing
<persia> Sounds to me like this spec needs deeper review.
<ogra> well, re-drafting at least
<persia> [ACTION] NCommander to reset arm-softboot-loader to "Drafting" and work towards a solution in #ubuntu-arm over the next week.
<NCommander> persia, yup; I didn't know about the kboot issues when we started writing it, I only recently got some life (by heavy hacks, and building on dappar)
<persia> mid-jaunty-launcher: StevenK
<StevenK> Requires extra hours in the day to write up
<StevenK> Or not sleeping.
<StevenK> Prefer first option
<persia> selection-or-arm-images: ogra
<ogra> pending approval
<StevenK> persia: s/or/of/ ?
<ogra> err
<persia> StevenK, Yes.
<ogra> pending review actually
<ogra> i'd like to get review from StevenK on that :)
<persia> [ACTION] StevenK to review selection-of-arm-images
<StevenK> Okay, I'll read it tomorrow
<ogra> as i mentioned in the beginning, since he does the non gui tool parts
<persia> mid-screen-rotation: ogra
<ogra> beyond that the buildd side seems done to an exted
<ogra> and the gui side isnt started yet (n need kernels ...,. amitk .... )
<ogra> not started yet (but its an afternoon of work to get a prototype, will do that before the sprint)
<StevenK> Sigh. Thanks for crashing, Tasque
<ogra> (the last sentence was on screen-rotation)
<persia> hildon-packaging-jaunty: persia
<persia> I need to write this.  Plan is to mostly do nothing, except if that breaks something, or if the Mer project needs something.
<persia> (https://launchpad.net/m-r/
<persia> mobile-applications: persia
<ogra> Mer is arm related or arch independent ?
 * ogra didnt really get yet what thats for
<persia> ogra, arch-independent.
<ogra> ah, k
<persia> back to hildon-packaging-jaunty :)
<ogra> well, question answered :)
<persia> Mer is an effort within the Maemo community to build most of the Maemo apps on an Ubuntu base, and push patches back into Maemo to improve upstream.
<ogra> move on
<ogra> ah
<persia> So, if we want hildon later, we want to support them now to make sure upstream can be adopted well.
<ogra> sounds like a cool idea
<persia> Yeah.  Lots of credit to those guys.  Take a look at their patch collection.
<persia> Moving on.
<persia> mobile-applications: persia
<ogra> thought there might be clashes and overlap on a low level with moblin2
<persia> [ACTION] persia to request conclusions from application research delegates
<persia> Once I've done that, and I get the results, I'll finish the spec, and we can adjust the seeds.
<persia> mobile-spec-cleanup: persia
<persia> I've not spent any time on this recently, more focusing on current specs.  I'm planning to get back to that once the current specs are in better shape
<persia> And that concludes the Roadmap review
<ogra> yay
<persia> Next up: Wimax: we should start packaging this stack but need help from Kernel and Foundation folks for some bits (kernel drivers and DHCP patches); we also need hardware :-p amitk had started looking in some stuff
<persia> amitk, Anything to share on that?
<persia> [LINK] http://www.linuxwimax.org/Download
<amitk> persia: We only carried wimax in hardy
<amitk> and even that until v1.2
<persia> Is upstream suitable for more general adoption or import into Ubuntu?
<StevenK> Actually, not even in Hardy.
<amitk> do you now want it for hardy or jaunty?
<amitk> StevenK: only the kernel drivers bits, true
<amitk> wimax upstream has pushed some dependency patches for input layer into linus' tree
<amitk> but the wimax driver itself is still outside
<persia> Well, do we want it?
<persia> Anyone volunteer to start a spec?
<persia> OK.  Let's pass on that for now.  If anyone wants to pick it up, please bring it to the next meeting.
<persia> Any other business?
<ogra> playya, ?
<ogra> did you have any topics ?
<ogra> ... doesnt look like
<persia> OK.  That's it then.  Thanks for attending.  Until next week.
<persia> #endmeeting
<playya> nope. not really
<NCommander> cya
<ogra> wow, even with going over the specs we're 10min ahead
 * ogra liked that meeting, had a very productive touch this time 
<persia> Actions and minutes from the meeting now available at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileTeam/Meeting/2009/20090122
<randa> ogra,
<ogra> randa,
<persia> Who's here for the Java Team Meeting
<Koon> o/
 * \sh is here :)
<persia> \sh, Welcome.  Don't usually see you at this meeting :)
<Koon> the more, te merrier
<\sh> persia: yeah...it happened that I need to deal with java on ubuntu now and already found bugs...
<persia> Today's agenda (https://wiki.ubuntu.com/JavaTeam/Meeting) has nothing special.
<persia> \sh: Go add something quick if you have something, and we'll get to it after the roadmap
<persia> OK.  Roadmap is first
<\sh> persia: we need to get java6b12 in jaunty and need backports
<\sh> oh sorry
<persia> I don't see robilad, so we'll skip that.
<persia> slytherin, MoveToUniverse
<slytherin> nothing much. only bug logged was tuxguitar
<slytherin> I haven't seen any activity on jboss bug, I will have to get hold of some archive admin.
<persia> Koon, maven
<Koon> not so good news, I'm afraid
<Koon> first about maven packaging support
<Koon> Ludovic Claude disappeared since Christmas so implementation is stalled
<Koon> furthermore Torsten Werner, the debian dev that works on maven now, hinted that our implementation was flawed
<slytherin> Koon: No he has not disappeared. He is working with Torsten in Debian.
<Koon> slytherin: recently ?
<slytherin> I have synced quite a few packages from Debian.
<persia> ludovicc came to the meeting on the 8th, and presented activity
<Koon> then it might be in a better shape than I supposed, they both didn't answer my recent emails
<persia> He also discussed the specifics of Torsten's concerns, and his work to rationalise the two approaches
<persia> log is at http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2009/01/08/%23ubuntu-meeting.html
<Koon> I'll have to get the log
<Koon> ok
<Koon> my other problem is that maven is probably not the main issue for large Java stacks support
<Koon> the key problem is what maven results in : dependency on very precise versions of JARs
<Koon> as runtime-depends and build-depends
<Koon> we ship one, they want all of them.
<Koon> I've been discussing with the upstreams, they clearly can't align their work to what we provide
<Koon> this, combined with the inflation in Java deps in suych projects, leads to a major build-from-source issue
<persia> Not only that, but significant inflation of installation impact.
<Koon> you basically have to package a few hundreds deps before starting to package any stack like Geronimo/Glassfish
<Koon> I'm preparing an email to ubuntu-devel to discuss that question
<Koon> you're more than happy to join in the discussion
<persia> We have a glassfish: is this just changes upstream?
<Koon> it's a binary one
<persia> Oh, that's why.
<Koon> glassfishv2 in multiverse. Only the easy glassfish bits are in universe
<Koon> like apis
<Koon> sun works on glassfishv3 in universe
<persia> sathyan has been piping up in #ubuntu-java the past few weeks.  Have you been working with him?
<Koon> yes
<Koon> they have just hit the aforementionned walls
<persia> I see.
<Koon> After turning the problem in all senses for a month, my best shot is to adapt some policies
<Koon> but maybe someone else will find a less disruptive way
<persia> So maven not only has the issues Torsten pointed out, but incorporating it causes other issues to appear?
<Koon> it's not really linked to Maven
<persia> It's about upstream mindset?
<Koon> yes. Maven just makes it easier to have that mindset
<Koon> I have a couple of other non-Maven projects that have exactly the same problem
<Koon> (they ship their build deps as part of the sources)
<persia> This was a topic in Prague, and has long been an issue with larger Java projects.
<Koon> it still is ;)
<slytherin> At some point of topic I even filed a bug in apache bugzilla about not shipping jars in batik source distribution. Never received a response. :-)
<Koon> slytherin: if you don't take a distro-centric pov, but a product-oriented one, their appraoch makes sense
<Koon> it's so much easier not to care about how your dependencies evolve
<Koon> it's just *wrong* in a distro setting.
<slytherin> No. I don't agree. If I am providing source archive then I would expect users to read readme, download the required build dependencies.
<Koon> The Geronimo guys ship with hundreds of external JARs in their tar.gz... they keep watch on security issues for all of them and release a new version of their software everytime they update one jar to fix.
<Koon> anyway... I'll send that email and see if creative ideas come from the thread
<Koon> next :)
<persia> persia, Killing Sun Java 5
<persia> Erm.  Didn't do anything at all.  I'll report something next week.  Sorry for dropping this.
<persia> That concludes the Roadmap.
<persia> No other agenda items from a refresh.
<persia> Any Other Business?
<slytherin> I have one. Not exactly related to our roadmap
<persia> \sh, ?
<persia> We're done with Roadmap.  The floor is open.
<\sh> forget my request for now..I'll file bugs if needed..I'm testing 6u12 right now to check if my assumption is correct
<slytherin> Does anyone know how to disable auto update in azureus? I am working with merge. But as soon as I start the new vuze interface it starts downloading the latest version.
<slytherin> I tried commenting some code but that has not worked out.
 * Koon just reads last week logs, apparently maven support is in good shape.
<slytherin> I can not upload the merge unless this issue is sorted out. As a last resort I will have to mail upstream.
<persia> \sh, OK.  If it's just a package update, a bug is better.  If there's impact to other stuff, we're happy to discuss.
<\sh> persia: looks like (if I'm correct) that we need to backport or SRU new packages down to hardy
<persia> slytherin, Have you checked with jdong?
<persia> \sh, sun-java or openjdk?
<\sh> persia: hopefully only sun-java...I need to check openjdk when it's based on the orig java source
<slytherin> persia: no, I will check
<persia> slytherin, Dunno if he still knows, but he was a regular uploader for a while.
<slytherin> persia: will check with him anyway
<persia> \sh, SRUs for sun-java are not uncommon, because we can't see it, and it sometimes has bugfixes.  openjdk tends to follow normal update guidelines.
<persia> OK.  Anything else, or shall we end the meeting?
<persia> Well, thanks for attending.  Until next week.
#ubuntu-meeting 2009-01-24
<dulonga> hello
#ubuntu-meeting 2010-01-25
<jono> hey
<vish> KatieKitty: hi... could you turn off the nick changes ? as you can see from above , the channel is mostly flooded with yours ;)
<KatieKitty> ops
<KatieKitty> sorry
<KatieKitty> :)
<vish> npp.. :)
<jdstrand> o/
<mdeslaur> welcome!
<kees> \o
<kees> I'll start?
<mdeslaur> sure :)
<kees> today I'll be giving an ubuntu developer week presentation on how to run the devel release (that's at 1900UTC)
<kees> there are sekrit updates I'll be working on for release today
<kees> and then I'll probably be working on nautilus for the do-not-execute .desktop files stuff
<mdeslaur> sweet
<mdeslaur> timestamps?
<kees> persia also found a tiny glitch with the hardening behavior when using "ld" alone, which I think I can fix.
<kees> yeah, the idea I'm going to go with is timestamps
<kees> ctime, specifically
<persia> kees: You're fixing that?  I won't bother to work around it then.
<kees> persia: I'm not sure I _can_ fix it; I'd prefer it just switch to using gcc.
<persia> OK.
 * jjohansen waves
<kees> persia: but it is a regression from something that should normally build without a problem.
<mdeslaur> hi jjohansen!
<kees> persia: I just think I have an idea about it.  haven't gotten much further
<kees> heya jjohansen
<persia> Right.  Back to the meeting :)
<jjohansen> :)
<kees> and speaking of jjohansen, I'd like to get the new upstream parser improvements into lucid too.
<jjohansen> right, can we hold off a couple days
<jjohansen> I have some more patches coming there
<robbiew> o/
<kees> okay, cool
<robbiew> sorry I'm late
<kees> uhm, that's it from me.  robbiew: no problem.  that's why there's scrollback :)
<kees> jdstrand: your turn!
<mdeslaur> I'll go next
<mdeslaur> oups :P
<kees> oops
<kees> sorry, was trying to hand off.  :)
<mdeslaur> jdstrand ---
<jdstrand> who is going now?
<jdstrand> :P
<mdeslaur> jdong: you
<mdeslaur> oups
<kees> heh
<mdeslaur> jdstrand: you
<jdstrand> heh
<jdstrand> \o/
<mdeslaur> darn completion
<kees> now all three of you can fighting it out!
<jdong> *gets scared* :)
<mdeslaur> sorry bout that jdong
<jdong> what did I do!! ;-)
<jdstrand> so I am in the happy place this week
<jdong> hahaha no worries :)
<jdstrand> I hope to finish some embedded expat updates and actually do the clamav from hardy-backports to -security
<mdeslaur> cool
<jdstrand> beyond that, there are some ufw logging bugs that I've known about for a while that people are starting to bug me about, so I will look at SRUs for them
<jdstrand> and I should get the libvert merge done too
<jdstrand> oh, and look at (potentiallly) more firefox 3.6 (static build destined for lucid) apparmor packaging issues
<jdstrand> firefox is getting renamed, so the packaging for the profile and the profile itself needed some updating. there might be a little more to do there
<jdstrand> (that's all from me)
<mdeslaur> I'm on triage this week
<mdeslaur> and am working on a sekrit update also
 * jdstrand feels left out
<mdeslaur> and I have mysql updates pending the new thing that came out today
<mdeslaur> I'll wait until we get a fix for that, or else, I'll publish mysql when we come back from sprint
<mdeslaur> and that's about it for me
<kees> jdstrand: s/static/monolithic/ yes?
<kees> i.e. it's still a dynamic executable, right?
<jdstrand> kees: yeah-- monolithic. sorry, they've been abusing that term. the new firefox will use embedded code copies for most of the build (libc6 and a couple others being an exception)
<kees> okay, cool
<jdstrand> kees: so we'll get all the compiler hardening, etc
<kees> well, technically we still would, but yes, dynamic for _really_ low level stuff.
<kees> which reminds me, I need to upgrade and try it now that its done building
<kees> s/its/it's/
<jdstrand> aiui, the compiler flags will still be there
<jdstrand> it's just it won't use Ubuntu's libpng, for example
<kees> oh, it's in the NEW queue
<kees> jdstrand: yeah :(
<jdstrand> well, yeah, we have to trust them, but they are doing that stuff anyway (ie updating libpng)
<jdstrand> and we don't have a choice
 * kees nods
<jdstrand> anyhoo, old news
<mdeslaur> so, that's it?
<mdeslaur> does anyone have any questions/issues for the security team?
<mdeslaur> bye-bye
<kees> oh, we need to try to knock out a few more workitems: http://people.canonical.com/~pitti/workitems/canonical-security.html
<kees> but, we know that already, so again, old news.  :)
<kees> anything else?
<jdstrand> kees: several things I mentioned I'm working on are work items
<jdstrand> I don't have anything
<kees> jdstrand: yup, cool.  same for me (nautilus) but I just wanted to paste the burndown anyway.  :)
<kees> ok, thanks everyone!
<jdstrand> heh
<Smex> Laters folks.
#ubuntu-meeting 2010-01-26
 * persia peers about
<elky> oh, right.
<elky> persia, did we miss it?
<persia> I don't think so.  I think it starts in 3 minutes.
<elky> oh ok
<persia> Did the government there decide to have a special clock-changing ceremony for Australia Day?
<elky> dunno. i've just spend a week in another time zone, so i'm slightly lost
<persia> Ah, that would be it then.  You're absolutely sure it's a later than it is :)
<elky> i'm absolutely sure i don't want to go back to work tomorrow
<om26er> is it 10:00 UTC?
<persia> om26er: a bit past, really.
<persia> elky: You just need to start a national movement to abolish contract labor, and build enough support within the next 10 hours to have them not expect you :)
<elky> lifeless: freeflying?
<amachu> Hi
<elky> woohoo, fearless leader has arrived
<persia> Hurrah!
<amachu> elky: Hmm..
<lifeless> elky: am in france; somwhat here will do my best
 * om26er don't know what to say
<elky> om26er, what do you need to say?
<om26er> I applied for ubuntu members
<persia> In that case, as soon as we're organised, we'll ask you to introduce yourself, and lots of questions.
<persia> For now, just wait a bit.
<amachu> persia: duluu isn't present & om26er is presenting?
<elky> om26er, oh ok. so you did :)
<persia> we're still missing two (or four) people, depending how one counts.
<lifeless> but don't block on me: its work-and-sprinting time here
<amachu> persia: elky: lifeless: we are four right?
<persia> So we are.
<elky> yes
<elky> we do hold quorum, so we should take the time we have with lifeless as precious i suspect
<persia> Let's go then :)
<elky> onward!
<amachu> persia: ok
<elky> we can deal with duluu when he arrives
<elky> #startmeeting
<amachu> elky: yep
 * elky pouts
<elky> i fail at mootbot :(
<amachu> elky: am yet get to get used to it
<elky> um. its absence may be somethign to do with that.
<persia> Meeting started at 10*09 UTC
 * persia fails at emulation, but tries
<amachu> fine, om26er: your turn to present your contributions and why you would like to become a Ubuntu Member
<om26er> amachu, its the way that I can tell others that I am a member of ubuntu community
<amachu> om26er: tell about yourself
<amachu> & your contributions
<om26er> I live in pakistan, I am 19
<om26er> i spend all my time at launchpad and #ubuntu
<om26er> I started with triaging ubuntu moblin remix bugs then I moved to empathy
<om26er> now I am a papercutter
<om26er> I have been reporting/triaging bugs for empathy,indicator-applet rhythmbox and gwibber
<om26er> I have been using Lucid for 2months for testing and reporting
<om26er> in the past 4 months I have made almost 10 new ubuntu users
<amachu> freeflying: there?
<amachu> om26er: how long have you been reporting bugs & anwers?
<om26er> more than 5months
<om26er> I have also applied for bug control
<persia> om26er: You don't appear to have any testimonials on your wiki page.  Have you brought anyone to cheer for you?
<AlanBell> I will cheer for om26er, just dropping by, but he has helped push upstream a bug I raised
<persia> AlanBell: Could you share why you think om26er would be a great Ubuntu Member?
<AlanBell> persia: to be honest I haven't had that much interaction with om26er, but I was flipping past the meeting channel and saw the nick and recognised it as the person who was helping me yesterday, and previously on the same bug
<elky> om26er, can you tell us what you do for #ubuntu?
<om26er> elky, help people and solve their problems where I am able to
<elky> on average how much per week?
<om26er> for the last two weeks I have been triaging more than support but before that weekends were like 4-5 hours and an hour or so on week days
<amachu> om26er: anyone from Pakistan Loco to cheer you?
<om26er> amachu, well I just applied for that team and got accepted. well that room is quite empty 3-4 people with no activity
<lifeless> om26er: is it school holidays for ou at the oment? or mid term?
<lifeless> You started around october I think (doing Ubuntu support and bug manaement)
<om26er> actually my papers are next week
<lifeless> So I'm curious if this is just a help-out-in-holidays thing, or if it is fitting in with your normal academic workload
<amachu> om26er: shall that be taken as, you are on the internet more, who is yet to get into the Pakistan LoCo?
<om26er> my last holidays were summer holidays and 10 holidays for winter
<elky> lifeless, from reading my logs, mid to late august is when mobin was discovered by him. is that correct om26er?
<om26er> yes
<freeflying> amachu: elky sorry, I'm late, just back home
<lifeless> elky: thanks
<amachu> freeflying: hey! great.. om26er is presenting his contributions & here is his page https://wiki.ubuntu.com/om26er
<freeflying> amachu: reading back scroll, thanks
<elky> the giving:getting ratio of help appears to balance out a bit in late September, so he definitely does do some help giving.
<amachu> shall we take voting? freeflying: if you have questions, we shall wait
<freeflying> amachu: no for me, please go ahead with voting
<elky> amachu, 0 from me. good start, but neither significant or sustained unfortunately. i'm sure in a few months things will be better.
<elky> persia?
<elky> duluu, hi there. we're just finishing with om26er now, we'll see to you after :)
<persia> I'm disinclined to give much credit for bug work until membership in Bug Control is achieved, although I feel that it's a great start.  The support stuff looks good, but I have trouble seeing it well.
<elky> persia, would a quick glance at my grep help?
<persia> So +0 for me: I think it's close, but I'd like either membership in Bug Control (as indication of support by our bug triage team) or more testimonials.
<amachu> would like to see a bit more before giving a +1, from my end too.. +0 here
<amachu> lifeless: and you?
<persia> elky: I've glanced at logs: I just think that it's hard to effectively measure that sort of support just from logs.  I don't beleive in a relation between volume and effectiveness.  That said, what I've seen looks good, but it's not enough to push me into deciding alone.
<lifeless> I am +1: reasonably sustained (5 months)
<lifeless> so, duluu next yes?
<persia> Well, let's get freeflying's vote first :)
<amachu> om26er: keep up the good work, shape the wiki better so that we get a clear impression..
<freeflying> +1, a lot of answer tracker as well on lp
<amachu> persia: elky: raising from +0
<elky> not from me at this point
<persia> Nor I.
<amachu> me too holding on +0.
 * om26er triaged almost 30 bugs in last 2weeks
<elky> om26er, sorry :(. however, your bug quality is good and you do seem to be learning really really fast, which means in a few months, you'll be a true asset. please do persist for bug control and so forth though
<om26er> sure.
<amachu> om26er: so keep up the good work.. would like to see you soon..
<om26er> thank you all.
<amachu> duluu: you turn..
<amachu> duluu: your turn
<amachu> duluu: are you here?
<elky> duluu, ping?
<amachu> ok, any other issues to be raised?
<amachu> lifeless: elky: persia: freeflying ?
<persia> Most of our memberships run out in three months.
<persia> Does anyone know what is happening about new elections?
<persia> (or appointments, or whatever)?
<lifeless> o/ people knowing stuff
<elky> we should probably initiate in short order
<freeflying> amachu: no fon me
<amachu> new elections to?
<persia> This board.
<amachu> persia: I am not getting what you are referring to..
<amachu> new members to board?
<persia> https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-membership-board-asia-oceania/+members
<elky> persia, could you contact the Community Council about it?
<persia> I'm not likely to be able to stay up until council meeting tonight.
<persia> Or, no they are staggered
 * persia is confused.
<elky> it doesn't have to be right now.
<amachu> persia: may be we shall take it up in next meeting
<persia> Let's do that.
<persia> And one of us (maybe me) can contact CC and figure things out.
<lifeless> you could send a mail :)
<elky> you're the one who noted the pending expiries, and hence you're the one most versed on it by default :)
<persia> I believe pleia2 is currently preparing some best practice guidelines for elections/appointments anyway.
<elky> good.
<amachu> amachu: ok
<amachu> persia: ok
<amachu> persia: would you be taking this up or should I & when? next CC meeting?
<persia> amachu: Let's discuss next RMB meeting, and take it to the CC after that.
<persia> either you or I can take it.  I don't care.
<elky> discuss it next meeting now that we have a week to think about it
<amachu> persia: elky ok
<persia> I just wanted to make sure we all knew.
<elky> it is 3 months, but i do advise, based on past experience, in getting in early.
<persia> (as another council in which I participate recently ran into issues from procrastination)
<amachu> persia: yep.. thanks for that
<elky> persia, thanks, and ditto.
<amachu> duluu: turn out then for our next meeting..
<amachu> elky: persia: freeflying: lifeless: thanks for joining, leaving now..
 * asac waves ... and gets some coffee (bbi2)
<NCommander> #startmeeting
<NCommander> hrm
<NCommander> no bot
<popey> mootbot is dead apparently
<dyfet> the point is moot then
 * ogra appears
<NCommander> dyfet, ow, that pun hurt.
 * NCommander just needs a moment
<NCommander> Who's awake this morning?
<plars> mootbot was arrested for violating one of the three laws of robotics
<JamieBennett> me (but its 1pm here ;))
<NCommander> plars, which one did it violate?
<NCommander> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileTeam/Meeting/2010/20100126
<ogra> did it hurt humans ?
<GrueMaster> Maybe he's the smart one and is still asleep.
<asac> ok
<NCommander> so
<asac> getting started?
 * NCommander nods
<NCommander> Action Item Review
<NCommander> JamieBennett to complete imx51 backportng documentation on boot-speed
<JamieBennett> Last week was swallowed up by something else so no progress on that
<NCommander> cooloney to investigate lucid kernel patches that may need back-porting
<asac> [ACTION] JamieBennett to complete imx51 backportng documentation on boot-speed
<ogra> Bug 512321 has a fix and shoves off 2 seconds :)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 512321 in linux-fsl-imx51 "please backport devtmpfs to the lucid linux-imx51 kernel tree" [High,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/512321
<asac> cooloney cant attend today, so we should move his item forward
<JamieBennett> :)
<asac> [ACTION] cooloney to investigate lucid kernel patches that may need back-porting
<ogra> my imx51 install is booting incredibly fast atm :)
<JamieBennett> cool
<ogra> NCommander, make sure thats enabled in dove too ^^^
<davidm> G'day NCommander
<NCommander> hey DavidLevin
<NCommander> ...
<NCommander> tab complete failure
<ogra> heh
<NCommander> hey davidm
<davidm> bummber about mootbot
<NCommander>  * ericm and NCommander to investigate what causes the gnome-panel crash/restart cycle
<asac> [ACTION] NCommander to ensure that dove gets devtmpfs lucid bits backported too
 * persia has begun the process of poking appropriate people
 * NCommander takes actions
<ogra> asac, no need to backport, just enabling
<ogra> devtmpfs is in .32
<asac> NCommander: so the gnome-panel crashes are gone?
<asac> plars: ?
<plars> no, I saw a gnome panel crash yesterday
<NCommander> asac, unfortunately no. Last week was a wash for me due to sickness so I didn't look into it
<plars> that was on imx51
<asac> plars: a crash ... or constant crashing?
<NCommander> Seems to be unrelated to our general hanging issue on Dove
<asac> NCommander: no problem
<ogra> plars, uuh
 * ogra hasnt seen any yet
<plars> err, on dove actually
<plars> sorry
<ogra> phew
<plars> on imx51 it was one of the few things that was fine
 * ogra swipes sweat off forehead
<plars> I think the root of most of my imx51 trouble yesterday was with the usb bug though
<NCommander> ogra, bah, you should try having some Thumb2 issues. They're a load of fun
<ogra> which still isnt clear to me its USB though
<ogra> since the issues obviously affected the livefs on the SD too
<asac> plars: do we have a bug for gnome-panel crashes?
<NCommander> ericm_, anything else to add
<plars> asac: I didn't get a chance yesterday, was going to go looking and make sure it's in today, but I thought there was one for it already
<asac> thanks
<GrueMaster> asac bug 512515
<asac> [ACTION] plars to file a bug on gnome-panel crashes
<ubottu> Bug 512515 on http://launchpad.net/bugs/512515 is private
<ogra> bah
<plars> or possibly 458109... not sure if it's the same problem though
<asac> GrueMaster: apport hasnt kicked in yet?
<asac> can you open it?
<plars> bug 458109
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 458109 in gnome-panel "gnome-panel crashed with SIGSEGV in free()" [Medium,Incomplete] https://launchpad.net/bugs/458109
<asac> ah
<ogra> why cant i see 512515 ?
<persia> 512515 is *very* private.
<ogra> isnt ubuntu.armel subbed ?
<plars> nor can I
<NCommander> asac, apport on ARM been somewhat twichy. The retracer crashed while I was out sick, and I haven't kicked it hard enough yet
<asac> ogra: i assume its a crash report and apport didnt came a round yet
<ogra> asac, still the reported needs to sub -armel
<GrueMaster> yes
<persia> Ah, that explains the *very* private-ness.
<asac> right. so if you report crashes from a test install you can definitly open them up
<ogra> *reporter
<NCommander> [ACTION] NCommander to raise apport-retracer for armel from the dead
<asac> manually
<persia> Well, depends on what one did with the test install :)
<ogra> yeah
<asac> heh. you get the point ;)
<asac> ok
<NCommander> ** asac, ericm, and NCommander to talk about Thumb2 issues after the meeting and report back.
<ogra> what was the outcome ?
<asac> the outcome is that we have three knobs to tune:
<asac> a) user space apps (try to workaround)
<asac> b) kernel/toolchain (try to eliminate bad instructions)
<NCommander> a is bust
<ogra> a) would affect all of wrmel, no ?
<ogra> *armel
<asac> c) hardware (fix hardware)
 * ogra votes for b
<asac> ogra: well. so atm dove images start again
<asac> the hangups were caused by python
<ogra> right
<asac> the new python and recreating the .pyc's fixed it
<NCommander> b is semi-difficult to do. I'm tempted to go with c unless we *really* want Dove Y series hardware to work
<asac> so a) is kind of done, but flaky
<ogra> well, c means we need to replace the world
<asac> NCommander is working on b) with ericm (thats my understanding) ... and we are investigating hardware (but that probably takes a bit)
<ogra> which we'll surely do over time anyway
<ogra> but that requires speed
<asac> ogra: a relatively small world though ;)
<ogra> indeed
<asac> e.g. just our boards
<ogra> still takes shipping time etc
<ogra> and throws us back even more
<asac> NCommander: i thought you had an idea how to do that
<asac> what happened to it?
<NCommander> asac, on a or b?
<asac> b
<ogra> b
<ogra> semi indicates it easy for 50% ;)
<ogra> *it's
<NCommander> b is still fermenting, but I'm not sure we can handle the busted vldr instructions
<NCommander> We could change the toolchain to not use vldr, but that requires rebuilding the world
<ogra> i thought you discussed a solution with dmart yesterday
<asac> right. what was the outcome?
<NCommander> asac, ogra, just bounced ideas around. I don't think we came to a definate plan
<ogra> hmm, k
<asac> ok. lets try to keep a) going for now
<ogra> and c
<asac> i will talk to dmart and ericm about b)
<asac> and c) is ongoing anyway
<ogra> right
<NCommander> indeed
<dmart> From my pov, if vldr can't be worked around, the only other options are to change the toolchain, or build in ARM
<asac> NCommander: so you are off the hook and can do other things until further notice ;)
<NCommander> woo!
<dmart> NCommander, wasn't there an erratum patch for the vldr problems, or does it not work even with the patch.
<NCommander> dmart, the patch requires that the instruction is excuted and then faults
<ogra> dmart, build in ARM means we lose all improvements on imx51 too, no ?
<asac> yes ogra
<NCommander> dmart, its my understanding that our board hangs just executing the vldr instruction will cause the hang. (think Intel style f00f bug)
<ogra> thats what i feared
<dmart> ogra, well, yes, probably :/
<dmart> NCommander, I see. Important to clarify the situation on newer hardware then...
 * NCommander has been doing research into the f00f bug
<NCommander> I'm curious if we can use a similar technique to work around the issue, but most of the proposed fixes abuses things on Intel processors that don't exist on ARM
<asac> ok. anything else on this that shouldnt be discussed offline?
 * NCommander has nothing
<NCommander>  ** NCommander to investigate ericm's xorg naming bug.
<NCommander> ...
 * NCommander can't even remember what the naming bug was ...
<ogra> you skipped two items
<asac> heh
<asac> guess thats a carry forward ;)
<ogra> no
<asac> [ACTION] * NCommander to investigate ericm's xorg naming bug.
<ogra> ah
<asac> huh? he says he cant even remember ;)
<ogra> i thought you mean the skipped ones
<NCommander> ogra, i skipped cooloney's ones since he's not here
<asac> right.
<ogra> doesnt matter
<ogra> i can comment on both
<NCommander> ogra, oh, :-)
<JamieBennett> xorg was wrongly named no?
<NCommander> In that case
<NCommander>  ** cooloney to ping fsl for more reliable chip rev checking method.
<ogra> right
<ogra> the method is reliable, the bootloaders werent
<asac> [ACTION] * cooloney to ping fsl for more reliable chip rev checking method.
<asac> hasnt that happened?
<asac> right. i thought we have the fix for uboot even
<ogra> we have bugfixes for uboot but will likely stay with redboot anyway
<ogra> so that item is gone
<JamieBennett> boo ;)
<asac> sure ... but that item is done in any case
<asac> scratch that action ;)
<ogra> right
<ogra> same for the next one
<ogra> suspend/resume works reliable on imx51 now
<NCommander>  ** persia, asac, Gruemaster to discuss meeting rotation schedule and report back.
<ogra> all fixed :)
<asac> we decided that we discuss that during sprint
<persia> Oh.
<persia> GrueMaster and I discussed it briefly about 12 hours ago.
<persia> (but asac was asleep)
<ogra> evil you !
<persia> We decided all times were bad for someone.
<persia> But I'll get into that more in my Current Items item.
<NCommander> * Current Items
<NCommander> **  Readjustment of the meeting schedule to better fit current participants -- persia
<NCommander> persia, ok, now you can go :-)
 * ogra has no concerns about bad times but we need to make sure to match a proper frequency
<persia> So, basically no matter what time is selected, it's going to be bad for some folk.
<asac> right ... i would say, persia should send out suggestions
<ogra> i.e. i wouldnt change the time in the middle of y release cycle
<asac> and then we discuss that during sprint
<ogra> s/y/a/
<persia> As a result, we need a weighted analysis of attendees and times, to make it least bad for the smallest number of folk.
<persia> So, I'll volunteer to send something to ubuntu-mobile@ asking for timezones and availability of people who want to commit to attend the meeting, and collect the responses privately.
<asac> right. so i see two things are to be decided:
<ogra> but please regard my above comment too
<asac> 1. what meeting time to use next
<persia> I'll send out an a summarised mail (no identities) with the weighted analysis, and good times.
<asac> 2. how often do we want to change the meeting time (hint: not too often, to help community)
<ogra> 2 ++
<persia> I think rotation is worse than non-rotation.
 * ogra proposes with a release
<persia> Even if a meeting time is bad for someone, they can probably rearrange things.
<persia> Rotation makes for lots of rearragement.
<asac> yes
<ogra> well, if it stays for 6 months it shouldnt be to hard to do though
<asac> but having 9/10 regular atttendeed suffer isnt that great
<persia> Personally, I'm up for reviewing the time anytime there are significant complaints.
<persia> That doesn't mean it will change, but as we get new participants, and drop old ones, the weighted analysis may suggest better fits.
<asac> right
<asac> [ACTION] persia to suggest and coordinate discussion on meeting schedule
<persia> So, shall I proceed with this plan?
<persia> Excellent.
<asac> moving on ...
<asac> NCommander: ?
<NCommander> ** Standing Items
<NCommander> **  * http://macaroni.ubuntu.com/~pitti/workitems/canonical-mobile.html
<NCommander> ** Kernel Status (cooloney, ericm)
<ogra> looks good
<ogra> pretty close to trend
<JamieBennett> and some are bug linked which will go away soon
<asac> that url should be using people.canonical.com now
<asac> [LINK] http://people.canonical.com/~pitti/workitems/canonical-mobile.html
<ogra> someone didnt update the wiki :)
<asac> [LINK] http://people.canonical.com/~pitti/workitems/canonical-mobile-lucid-alpha-3.html
 * NCommander fixes the wiki
<NCommander> ericm_, how's the Dove kernel ATM?
<asac> so the itesm start to lack behind
<asac> i will elminate a bunch of the firefox items this week and also get the webservice-email spec on track
<ogra> what do we do about the uboot spec ?
<ogra> we had one for redboot taht was swapped for it
<ogra> do we swap back ? do we just drop it ?
<ogra> davidm, asac ?
<asac> ogra: we should set the status to blocked
<asac> and communicate the deficiencies to fsl
<ogra> well, i dont see a way that gets unblocked ever
<asac> if things get fixed early enough then thats ok
<ogra> at least for the speed issues
<ogra> these are uboot design issues
<asac> otherwise thats the reason we dont switch to uboot and we can postpone the items
<asac> ogra: uboot works for dove
<ogra> ok, so no swapping back of the redboot spec then
<asac> i think we would be fine if we get the same feature set
<ogra> uboot works for dove but we dont have any alternative :)
<asac> ogra: lets discuss that after meeting
<plars> is it the mac address bug that is killing it?
<asac> [ACTION] asac and ogra to decide what to do with bootloader specs
<ogra> nor did anyone ever research speed on dove wrt different bootloaders
<ogra> plars, 23 sec vs 11 sec initiaslization speed and the issue that we still need to pull the kernel off SD
<asac> ogra: i am 98% sure that thats a mmc driver bug
<ogra> which would turn image creation into a horrible thing
<ogra> asac, no, did you read my mail ?
<persia> I'm entirely certain it's a driver bug.
<ogra> no
<asac> ogra: the loading speed?
<ogra> did you read my analysis ?
<persia> I know that there exist i.MX51 implementations that can boot from NVRAM/NVROM
<ogra> the leoading isnt slow
<asac> ogra: i read your mail (if it was the mail i think)
<asac> ogra: the unpacking?
<ogra> the one i sent today
<ogra> yes
<asac> ok
<ogra> unpacking, initalizing of HW etc
<asac> i will double check. i think the mail i read was from yesterday night
<ogra> these are the steps that slow down
<ogra> i mailed one this morning
<asac> ogra: for me mmc load alone is slow
<asac> but lets discuss that after i read you mail
<ogra> subject: "uboot pro/con list, follow up measuring"
<asac> lets move on.
<ogra> right
<asac> anything on specs=?
<asac> [topic] Kernel Status (cooloney, ericm)
<asac> so cooloney isnt here ... ericm?
<ogra> imx51 looks very good apart from the issues plars sees though
<ogra> (but that could as well be bootloader induced)
<plars> planning to retry with sata today, hopefully things will look much better
<ogra> i'll upload a fresh redboot today, we still use the karmic binary
<ogra> (since i focused on uboot)
<asac> ok
<asac> lets move on
<asac> [topic] QA Status (GrueMaster, plars)
 * ogra thinks ericm_ fell asleep
<plars> started working on trying to do pairwise testing
<asac> great
<plars> but the first one I started with was the thing I ran into problems with yesterday
<asac> did you create a wiki to track that run?
<plars> so not much progress there yet
<plars> yes
<plars> but keep in mind this is only a temporary location
<plars> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ARM/Testing/ArmPairwiseResults
<asac> plars: that means we already discovered a new bug because of this? that sounds too optimal ;)
<plars> the tests are already on iso.qa.ubuntu.com
<plars> but are not visible until after hardy .4 testing
<asac> very good
<plars> but anyone should feel free to contribute if you have some spare cycles to try an install
<plars> poke me if you have questions
<asac> GrueMaster: any overview/status on daily testing for last week?
<GrueMaster> Last week I spent too much time trying to get dove to a working point.
<GrueMaster> Not much went on with IMX51.
 * GrueMaster is gathering a bug list.
<asac> thanks!
<GrueMaster> I filed a bug on keytool, which is part of the openjava packages.  It segfaults on dove, but not on imx51.
<asac> right. i remember that
<ogra> ubiquity doesnt work on imx51
<GrueMaster> Bug 510954
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 510954 in openjdk-6 "keytool segfaults on dove but not on imx51" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/510954
<ogra> at least it didnt for me on sunday
<ogra> i didnt research it though
<plars> ogra: it worked for me yesterday - up until flash-kernel died
<ogra> right
<GrueMaster> I got ubiquity to install yesterday on IMX51 after doing an apt-get update on the live image.
<ogra> so it was probably a one time issue with the friday image i had
<GrueMaster> The issue was a missing package.
<ogra> plymouth was fixed today btw
<asac> ok so ubiquity is fixed.
<asac> was there a bug open?
<asac> (for any)
<ogra> nope
<ogra> but if both are fixed, no need to bother
<asac> ok ... lets move on ... not much time left ;)
<asac> [ACTION] ARM Application status (JamieBennett, dyfet)
<JamieBennett> Nothing major to report
<asac> i guess not much happend there last week.
<dyfet> Some of the more ambitious ideas were not realizable in this cycle.  I proposed a much smaller subset of seed changes for Jamie to consider.
<JamieBennett> dyfet: this is the canola spec right?
<dyfet> Yes
<dyfet> At least I assumed so ;)
<asac> yes, so i recall that we discussed to not go for canola by default this cycle, but rather just ensure its in the archive
<JamieBennett> So canola isn't possible for this cycle but it could be a reality for lucid+1
<JamieBennett> and we are definately interested in that
<asac> yes
<dyfet> yes
<asac> ok thanks. sorry, time is running out ...
<asac> [TOPIC] ARM Porting/FTBFS status (NCommander, dyfet)
<asac> i think that looks quite ok on the ftbfs list
<asac> i failed to assign the issues identified in the thumb2 review
<ogra> whats the number of the bug you filed for likewise NCommander ?
<asac> so ...
<NCommander> I've done some porting of likewise to armel, but it was movre involved than I expected. Should have an initial build done soon.
<NCommander> ogra, no bug yet, that slipped my mind
<asac> [ACTION] asac to open bugs and assign for issues identified in thumb2review
<ogra> gnome-power-manager and squd need some attention
<asac> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ARM/Thumb2PackageReviewList
<ogra> and there is still libv4l
<ogra> *squid
<dmart> asac, did you want to continue with the review of the universe packages in the Thumb2 list at some point?  I did a few, but not very many.
<ogra> NCommander, please file it :)
<asac> dmart: yes, we can do another sprint later this week i guess
<NCommander> ogra, will do
<ogra> thanks
<dmart> asac, good plan, please suggest a time.
<asac> [ACTION] asac and dmart to finish thumb2 review for universe
<asac> lets discuss time after meeting
<asac> ... ok hurrying ;)
<dmart> sure
<asac> [TOPIC] ARM Image Status (ogra, persia)
<ogra> already covered for imx51 above
<persia> Things are finally looking really nice.
<ogra> all fine ...
<asac> thats what we want to hear ;)
<ogra> no idea about dove though
<ogra> since i didnt test that myself
<persia> The issues are almost entirely details of image construction (previously covered), and the application stacks are mostly just working.
<asac> afaik, dove images start and work ... thats more than we thought would happen last week
<ogra> right
<asac> thanks to plars for tracking it down to pythong and pybootchart
<asac> and thanks to doko for getting new python in ;)
<GrueMaster> None of the alt. images are building atm.
<ogra> btw, JamieBennett do you still beed bootchart on the images
<ogra> *need
<ogra> the apport popup is annoying on imx51 :)
<asac> i think we should keep it there for now ... might be interesting after the debconf fixes went it
<asac> in
<persia> GrueMaster: Hrm.  I missed that.  I'll see if I can't sort it.
<JamieBennett> ogra: no
<ogra> and it doesnt seem anyone makes efforts to fix it
<asac> hmm
<asac> ok
<ogra> so lets unseed it
<plars> I would like to keep bootchart if possible
<ogra> meh, k
<plars> not critical, but nice to have
<persia> plars: Can't you install with image modification if you need it?
<ogra> plars, when can we remove it ?
<plars> sure
<JamieBennett> plars: it's helpful I agree
<ogra> well, we need to remove it anyway at some point
<persia> Or can we stick it in the pool, so it's available for install?
<ogra> that should be possible
 * persia can provide preseeding hints to help get it installed at install-time
<ogra> a job for StevenK :)
<JamieBennett> persia: I'm using it in the live-cd ;)
<asac> yes, its for live images
<persia> JamieBennett: But you said you didn't need it, so I'm ignoring your use case :)
<JamieBennett> but I have my investigations done :)
<asac> do we capture results from it in a daily fashion?
<ogra> no
<JamieBennett> no
<ogra> it was only used for the livefs bootspeed issues (yet)
<asac> [ACTION] JamieBennett, plars and asac to decide what to do wrt bootchartgui seeding
<asac> [TOPIC] Ubuntu Liquid
<asac> persia: rbelem?
<rbelem> asac, persia and are working on plasma-mobile and kdm-mobile
<rbelem> asac, plasma-mobile is already in revu
<asac> right. i saw that.
<rbelem> and some minor fixes are needed
<asac> so you are making good progress on those two.
<asac> what will come after that?
<rbelem> yep
<rbelem> we will work on kdebase-workspace
<persia> We still have a kwin module to get in, and then we should be able to push a base -meta and -default-settings
<persia> There's stuff not exposed in the monolithic KDE libraries that we need to investigate more.
<rbelem> to expose some kcontrol libs
<asac> ok. i assume thats coordinated with riddell?
<rbelem> kdm-mobile depens on it
<rbelem> yep
<rbelem> we will make the changes and send to him
<persia> Well, kinda.  Until we finish the investigation we don't have a lot to propose, but we're definitely working with #kubuntu-devel
<rbelem> after that we should work to trim kdm
<asac> ok. what milestone is liquid aiming for? I assume the kdebase-workspace changes are somewhat bound to the alpha-3 milestone as kubuntu is going for LTS?
<rbelem> yep
<rbelem> our milestone is alpha3
<persia> For all the KDE stuff.  We might end up with some tweaks all the way to FF to get other stuff clean.
<asac> ok. so try to align your priorities so that things that need to be changed in software that is shipped by others is done around alpha-3
<persia> PRecisely.
<asac> if liquid-only things come a later its not a big deal imo
<rbelem> cool!
<rbelem> :-)
<persia> Well, we want to get at least -meta and -default-settings in by FF.
<persia> But they might not be 100% feature-complete at that point.
<persia> (package add being more invasive than bugfix stuff, even large bugfix, if nobody else installs the things)
<asac> sure. but if you have to decide what to do first, i would suggest to do the changes that have impact on kubuntu first ;)
<persia> Absolutely.  kdm/kwin are the big things now, because they need to build against stuff that we might need to expose from kdebase-workspace (as above)
<asac> well. not if those packages have no impact on other products imo ... but yes, FF should be the goal
<asac> ok. but feels its on track
<rbelem> :-)
<asac> if anything is needed just shout ;)
<persia> We will.
<asac> sorry, to cut off but we are overdue ;)
<asac> [TOPIC] AOB
<ogra> doesnt include beer :)
<ogra> or does it ? :)
 * NCommander thanks asac for taking over
<asac> NCommander: np
<asac> one thing from me: lets try to add our acitivites to the wiki _before_ the meeting ;)
 * asac slaps himself
<ogra> meh
 * ogra totally forgot about it ... 
<ogra> i'm missing JamieBennett'S nice remonders
<JamieBennett> :)
<ogra> *reminders
<asac> thougth we had one ping
<asac> guess jamie was too busy last week  to do that on friday
<asac> also i think i failed to send out the meeting minutes last week ... is that correct?
<JamieBennett> I'll start them back up on fridays
<JamieBennett> asac: yes
 * asac hides
<JamieBennett> I wrote them on the wiki though
<ogra> there are always the logs
<asac> JamieBennett: will you send both? or want me to still send last weeks minutes?
<JamieBennett> asac: I can do both
<persia> logs generally hit the TLDR barrier.  Minutes are better.
<asac> thanks. /me owe's JamieBennett a cookie ;)
<asac> yes, minutes are much bettter
<asac> especially if they are so well prepared as ours
<asac> on the wiki ;)
<JamieBennett> :)
<asac> ok thaks all
<ogra> thanks
<rbelem> thanks asac, persia :-)
<asac> thanks rbelem
 * GrueMaster reenters hibernate mode.
<asac> GrueMaster: 'night ;)
<ogra> suspend suspend !
<asac> right. hibernate is not supported ;)
 * JamieBennett grabs more coffee
<ogra> :)
<kees> \o
<bittin> o/
<cjwatson> hi folks
<cjwatson> Keybuk's on holiday today, so somebody else will need to chair
 * kees goes looking for the agenda
<kees> who else is here?
<kees> mdz?
<cjwatson> there's a strategic planning offsite thing this week, so I'm guessing that mdz and sabdfl are both unavailable
<kees> even if we had pitti, that'd be 3.
<mdz> cjwatson, correct
<kees> cjwatson: so, lacking quorum, postpone?
<cjwatson> do we know where pitti is?
<cjwatson> mdz: thanks
<kees> 3 isn't quorum though, right? don't we need 4?
<cjwatson> I believe we've normally gone for 3
<kees> ok
<kees> 3 have three.  :)
<kees> er, s/3/we
<kees> #startmeeting
<kees> hm, no mootbot
<kees> [topic] action review
<kees> * kees to follow up with Debian TC on units policy
<kees> I did this, still waiting to hear back from Debian TC, but bdale said he forwarded the details to them
<kees> * cjwatson to follow up with mythbuntu-dev to get ubuntu-core-dev added
<cjwatson> done
<kees> * ScottK to update Kubuntu/UpdatesPolicy based on Kubuntu
<kees>     * upstream feedback
<ScottK> Still waiting on upstream feedback.
<kees> okay, cool
<kees> * sabdfl to propose to CC that the TB is a CC delegate, and clarify his role
<kees> I haven't watched the CC mailing list.
<kees> I don't see anything on their agenda
<kees> we'll skip this for now
<kees> I don't see any explicit actions in the rest of the 2010-01-12 meeting, is that correct?
<kees> moving on..
<cjwatson> aye
<kees> [topic] Archive reorganisation (cjwatson)
<kees> what's new in this arena?  :)
<cjwatson> nothing
<kees> heh
<persia> Um, I have something.
<kees> go for it
<persia> I believe that the TODO "Update Ubuntu developer and process documentation to reflect changes" was completed (inadvertantly) by me as a result of the 12-22 DMB meeting.
<persia> (from AR/Permissions
<persia> I'm unsure if my changes complete that action entirely, but they may have done.
<cjwatson> that does seem likely, I think that's basically done
<persia> If not, I'll take an action to finish it if anyone can point me to stuff I missed.
<kees> [action] persia to finish updating Ubuntu developer and process documentation for any missed items
 * persia will need hints, having tried to hit everything already
<kees> persia: if nothing comes up between now and the next TB meeting, I think we can assume this task is done.  :)
<kees> kubuntu updates was covered already
<kees> unit policy wrt Debian covered already
<persia> Sounds good.
<kees> [topic] community bugs
<kees> unchanged, bug 485559 still open
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 485559 in ubuntu-community "Mark Shuttleworth has no expiration date set in the tech-board LP team" [Low,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/485559
<kees> [topic] other topics
<kees> anything else to cover?
<kees> okay, thanks everyone!
<kees> #endmeeting
<kees> (oh, Keybuk is chair for next time...)
<cjwatson> kees: thanks
<sconklin> git branch -a
<sconklin> gah
<bjf> lol
<JFo> heh
 * smb is already there 
<chasedouglas> hello everyone! I thought I'd do some lurking...
<bjf> Roll Call
<bjf> chasedouglas, lurk all you want :-)
<sconklin> Hi chasedouglas
<JFo> O/
 * apw zones in ...
 * ogasawara high fives
<smb> chasedouglas, Lurkers usually have to pay in beer if we meet them in person
 * jjohansen waves
<bjf> chasedouglas, you can even join in if the feeling hits you
<smb> chasedouglas, Hi and welcome btw :)
<apw> cking, is here but can't write currently
<bjf> is that everyone? don't seen manjo, tgardner or pgraner
<bjf> #startmeeting
<apw> pgraner, is out
<bjf> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/Meeting
<bjf> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/ReleaseStatus/Lucid
<bjf> hmm, where is mootbot?
<bjf> guess we'll live with out it
<bjf> NOTE: '..' indicates that you are finished with your input.
<bjf> [TOPIC] Lucid Release Status: Bugs (Release Meeting Bugs / RC Milestoned Bugs / Release Targeted Bugs
<JFo> Release Meeting Bugs (5 bugs, 5 blueprints)
<JFo> ===
<JFo> Alpha 3 Milestoned Bugs (23 bugs)
<JFo>  * 3 linux kernel bugs
<JFo>  * 1 linux-fsl-imx51 bugs
<JFo>  * 0 linux-ec2 bug
<JFo>  * 2 linux-mvl-dove bugs
<JFo> ===
<JFo> Release Targeted Bugs (97 bugs)
<JFo>  * 11 linux kernel bugs
<JFo>  * 2 linux-fsl-imx51 bugs
<JFo>  * 1 linux-ec2 bug
<JFo>  * 2 linux-mvl-dove bug
<JFo> ===
<JFo> Milestoned Features -
<JFo>  * 0 blueprint
<JFo> the full breakdown is available (and the links to the data) on the Meeting/ page
 * apw likes the more condenced format
 * ogasawara too
<JFo> ..
<smb> +1 apw, Are we aware of the 11 release targeted things
<apw> smb, probabally not
<ogasawara> we should go over them maybe in our call monday
<apw> i'll get with jfo to understand that later
 * JFo makes a note
<JFo> apw, ok
<smb> ogasawara, We wont call then, but we can battle directly
<apw> ogasawara, plan
<apw> heh yeah
<apw> ..
<bjf> [TOPIC] Lucid Release Status: New metric (apw, ogasawara)
 * ogasawara hands off to JFo (bugs with patches)
<apw> thats bugs with patches
<JFo> Bugs with Patches Attached:125
<JFo> http://qa.ubuntu.com/reports/ogasawara/csv-stats/bugs-with-patches/linux/
<JFo> ..
<bjf> [TOPIC] Blueprints: kernel-lucid-bug-handling (ogasawara)
<bjf> [LINK] https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/kernel-lucid-bug-handling
<ogasawara> going to pass some action items to JFo this week (today even).
<ogasawara> ..
<apw> bjf can we rename 'New Metric' to bugs with patches please
<bjf> apw, ack
<bjf> JFo?
<JFo> bjf?
<bjf> is that all for this topic?
<JFo> oh, my apologies
<JFo> ..
<ogasawara> bjf: yes, that's it
<JFo> :)
<bjf> [TOPIC] Blueprints: kernel-lucid-review-of-ubuntu-delta (apw)
<bjf> [LINK] https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/kernel-lucid-review-of-ubuntu-delta
<apw> We have added the new DEVTMPFS device to the ubuntu delta for Lucid 2.6.31 based kernels.  Otherwise nothing else to report.
<apw> ..
<apw> bjf, ?
<bjf> [TOPIC] Blueprints: kernel-lucid-kernel-config-review (apw)
<bjf> [LINK] https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/kernel-lucid-kernel-config-review
<bjf> [TOPIC] Blueprints: kernel-lucid-kernel-config-review (apw)
<bjf> [LINK] https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/kernel-lucid-kernel-config-review
<bjf> apw?
<apw> Review of built-in sub-systems planned for the distro sprint.  Otherwise nothing else to report.
<apw> ..
<bjf> [TOPIC] Blueprints: kernel-lucid-kms (sconklin)
<bjf> [LINK] https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/kernel-lucid-kms
<apw> Nouveau from 2.6.33-rc4 pulled into LBM and LBM generally prepared for Lucid.  Currently available from my PPA for testing.  Seems you need to manually installl -nouveau X-server components to get this working.  X team is going to do some testing before the distro sprint, with a view to making a decision on Nouveau support and how to deliver it there.
<apw> ..
<sconklin> nothing new except anything apw has on nouveau
<sconklin> ..
<ogasawara> apw: I assume Lucid LBM as the usual comapat-wireless and alsa foo
<bjf> apw, do we have instructions on how to install the nouveau X-server components or should I talk to bryce?
<ogasawara> s/as/has/
<apw> ogasawara, yes thats correct
<apw> its not yet upladed officially
<apw> bjf, we do not yet have instructions, if you see bryce that'd be handy
<bjf> [TOPIC] Blueprints: kernel-lucid-suspend-resume (manjo)
<bjf> [LINK] https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/kernel-lucid-suspend-resume
<bjf> doesn't look like we have a manjo
<JFo> manjo is headed to the airport
<JFo> ..
<bjf> [TOPIC] Blueprints: kernel-lucid-apparmor-development (jjohansen)
<bjf> [LINK] https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/kernel-lucid-apparmor-development
<jjohansen> dfa optimization is done
<jjohansen> there is a bug in table compression improvements so I backed that out for the moment
<jjohansen> I am aware of 3 regressions in current upstream code base and am looking into them
<apw> so those we have in lucid i assume
<jjohansen> yes
<jjohansen> they are minor regressions in corner cases
<apw> might be appropriate to link those to the blueprint if they are a few days work
<jjohansen> but 2 of them may be coming from LSM tweaks
<apw> (the launchpad bugs)
<jjohansen> apw: okay
<jjohansen> I haven't looked into them enough yet to be sure, will update
<jjohansen> ..
<apw> jjohansen, ack ..
<bjf> [TOPIC] Blueprints: kernel-lucid-boot-performance (apw, csurbhi)
<bjf> [LINK] https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/kernel-lucid-boot-performance
<apw> The regression in filesystem mount time remains, that is planned for discussion at the Platform sprint.  We had regressions caused by the late battery update changes (which gave us .3s during boot).  A revised patch moving the update async appears to resolve the issue and retain the gains.
<apw> ..
<bjf> [TOPIC] Other Release Tasks: Lucid Audio Support (bjf)
<bjf> Nothing major to report. The alsa c-o-d is busted right now and I'm working to
<bjf> get it fixed.
<bjf> ..
<bjf> [TOPIC] Other Release Tasks: EC2 Lucid Kernel Status (jjohansen)
<apw> bjf we likely need something to track all of those and report failures
<jjohansen> EC2 patch update is slow, going
<bjf> apw, ack
<jjohansen> I have had 1 kernel off of slightly older patchset not boot
<jjohansen> I have rebased and pulled in the latest patches from today, and redoing
<jjohansen> I am dropping all the conflicts in drivers that I can
<jjohansen> ..
<bjf> [TOPIC] Status: Lucid (apw)
<apw> The main kernel is now pulled up to 2.6.32.6 pulled in and ready to upload.   ARM Marvell Dove just updated to 2.6.32 and so we should expect some breakage there.  ARM Freescale IMX51 is now on the Freescale BSP and we receieved some 30 additional patches which are applied; upload is pending security updates on the main tree.
<apw> We have a lot of work outstanding still for Lucid.  With only 19 of 57 tasks closed or deferred.  We need to review our alpha-3 deliverables and concentrate on those.
<apw> ..
<bjf> [TOPIC] Security & bugfix kernels - Karmic/Jaunty/Intrepid/Hardy/Others (gnarl/smb)
<smb> Dapper:     2.6.15-55.81 (security)
<smb> Hardy:      2.6.24-26.64 (security)
<smb> Intrepid:   2.6.27-16.44 (security)
<smb> Jaunty:     2.6.28-17.58 (security)
<smb> Karmic:     2.6.31-18.55 (proposed)[18]  4/12 verifications done
<smb> -LBM:       2.6.31-18-20 (proposed)[18]  0/ 2 verifications done
<smb> Security still getting finalized. We are including all the topic branches
<smb> into the update this time. So this adds to the effort.
<smb> Karmic-proposed needs to be updated before uploading as there has been one
<smb> regression detected in the 2.6.31.9 update
<smb> ..
<bjf> [TOPIC] Incoming Bugs: Regressions (JFo)
<JFo> Incoming Bugs
<JFo> 101 Lucid Bugs (up 14)
<JFo> Current regression stats (broken down by release):
<JFo> == regression-potential (up 4) ==
<JFo> 35 lucid bugs
<JFo> == regression-update (no change)==
<JFo> 9 karmic bugs
<JFo> 5 jaunty bugs
<JFo> 2 intrepid bugs
<JFo> 1 hardy bug
<JFo> == regression-release (no change)==
<JFo> 60 karmic bugs
<JFo> 22 jaunty bugs
<JFo> 12 intrepid bugs
<JFo> 4 hardy bugs
<JFo> == regression-proposed (no change)==
<JFo> 1 karmic bug
<JFo> The detailed information (and links to the data) are available on the Meetings/ page
<bjf> [TOPIC] Incoming Bugs: Bug day report (JFo)
<JFo> Stats from last week can be seen at http://qa.ubuntu.com/reports/ogasawara/kernel-bugday/20100119.html
<JFo> The next bug day is scheduled for next tues but we'll be sprinting, I'll send email that we'll postpone it to Tues Feb 9
<JFo> ..
<bjf> [TOPIC] Open Discussion or Questions: Anyone have anything?
<bjf> Welcome Chase Douglas!
<JFo> hi chasedouglas
<apw> yay ... welcome
<chasedouglas> hi!
<ogasawara> welcome aboard chase!
<chasedouglas> I'm going to have to get used to irc meetings :)
<apw> jfo these bug stats seem off as there is a lot of down arrow and no up arrow
<apw> chasedouglas, heh yeah you will
<smb> chasedouglas, again welcome. you will get used to it
<JFo> apw, I was told that the bug number is fromm all packages, not just kernel
<JFo> I can investigate a bit
<JFo> sorry, the total bug number
<apw> i'd just expect the number of v to match the number of ^
<apw> as all states are represented
<JFo> apw, I see what you mean
<JFo> ogasawara, any insight?
<apw> we can take that offline ...
<bjf> thanks everyone
<bjf> #endmeeting
<JFo> certainly
#ubuntu-meeting 2010-01-27
<bittin> http://fc08.deviantart.net/fs71/f/2010/027/7/1/eeedebian_wmii_by_bittin.png me likes <3
<jiboumans> o/
<zul> hewlo
<jiboumans> morning zul
<jiboumans> just a heads up; you're today's scribe :)
 * stgraber waves
 * mathiaz waves
<ttx> o/
<zul> morning jiboumans
<mjeanson> hi
<zul> jiboumans: yeah weee :)
 * jjohansen waves
<nijaba> O/
 * nijaba has a big head today
<alexm> o/
<zul> nijaba: oh crap ;)
<smoser> good morning all
<jiboumans> soren, kirkland: around?
<kirkland> o/
<kirkland> jiboumans: yup
<jiboumans> ok, let's get the party started
<jiboumans> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 08:00. The chair is jiboumans.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<jiboumans> today's scribe is zul
<jiboumans> [TOPIC] last week's action review
<MootBot> New Topic:  last week's action review
<jiboumans> Action: smoser to publish karmic cloud image refresh
<soren> o/
<smoser> done.
<jiboumans> fwiw, the last meetings logs are here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/Server/20100120 i'll be calling action points in order. please prep your answers
<jiboumans> smoser: ta
<jiboumans> Action: Everyone: update status for your specs before the meeting starts
<jiboumans> looking here, a few aren't updated yet: http://macaroni.ubuntu.com/~pitti/workitems/canonical-server-lucid-alpha-3.html
<ttx> jiboumans: bad link
<jiboumans> please have them updated a few hours before this meeting at the latest, so they show up there
<ttx> http://people.canonical.com/~pitti/workitems/canonical-server-lucid-alpha-3.html
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://people.canonical.com/~pitti/workitems/canonical-server-lucid-alpha-3.html
<jiboumans> ttx: right, it's moved.. my bad
<jiboumans> [ACTION] everyone to update their specs status before the meeting. srsly!
<MootBot> ACTION received:  everyone to update their specs status before the meeting. srsly!
<jiboumans> Action: ttx, zul to blog about papercuts, make sure UWN gets the word
<ttx> you still have one minute to complete before we go to spec review mode
<ttx> jiboumans: done
<zul> blogged about it need to talk to the UWN people
<ttx> zul: showed up in UWN already
<ttx> zul: no need to pester them
<jiboumans> excellent
<zul> ttx: ah sweet
<jiboumans> zul++ ttx++
<jiboumans> Action: ttx to send email about criteria and nomination to ubuntu-devel, ubuntu-server
<ttx> done
<jiboumans> excellent; details later on in the agenda
<jiboumans> Action: smoser to raise thread about the no-ramdisk / -virtual config tradeoff
<smoser> done, and kernel configs changed
<smoser> don't know if there is a build available or not, but it wen to fix-commited early this week
<jjohansen> they will be in the next kernel upload
<jiboumans> ok, i'd like to discuss the details later on in the kernel section
<jiboumans> smoser++ jjohansen++
<jiboumans> Action: zul, kirkland to unassign themselves from "maybe working on one day" bugs
<zul> done
<kirkland> jiboumans: done
<jiboumans> excellent
<jiboumans> moving on
<jiboumans> [TOPIC] Alpha3 subcycle planning
<MootBot> New Topic:  Alpha3 subcycle planning
<jiboumans> What's in the WI tracker is what we're committed to: http://people.canonical.com/~pitti/workitems/canonical-server-lucid-alpha-3.html
<jiboumans> everything that's marked 'medium' or higher is faily sure to make it into alpha3. 'low' prio specs are targets of opportunity
<jiboumans> we'll do our best to get as many of those done as possible
<jiboumans> note there's not been much change on this since last week, but we expect it to be pretty much stable now, barring any external factors messing with it
<jiboumans> any questions about the alpha3 plans?
<zul> nope
<soren> no
<jiboumans> excellent, moving on
<jiboumans> [TOPIC] spec quick review (ttx)
<MootBot> New Topic:  spec quick review (ttx)
<ttx> OK, general status is on the same magic page
<ttx> I wanted to look into those "high" specs that are < 30 %
<ttx> and team members that also are below that threshold
<ttx> server-lucid-apport-hooks: 22%
<zul> will be updating it today
<ttx> server-lucid-canonical-application-support: 20%
<zul> will be working on it today
<ttx> I'd like to see those completed, as they are spillover from alpha2
<ttx> ok
<ttx> server-lucid-seeds: 13%
<zul> ctdb needs to be worked on
<ttx> mathiaz ^
<mathiaz> ttx: more WI showed up to figure out why packages haven't been dropped from main
<ttx> is that analysis taking long ?
<mathiaz> ttx: nope
<ttx> ok, so thaey should be burnable quite fast, ok
<mathiaz> ttx: yes
<ttx> server-lucid-uec-testing: 0%
<mathiaz> ttx: was blocked on server access - which is done now
<mathiaz> ttx: blocked on a installer bug now
<mathiaz> ttx: I need to sync up with kirkland
 * kirkland waves at mathiaz 
<mathiaz> ttx: all the remaining WI rely on having a working UEC cloud
<ttx> mathiaz: hmm, ok. Please update status to reflect the blockage
<jiboumans> mathiaz: anything myself or ttx can do to move this along?
<mathiaz> I don't think so - for now
<ttx> or maybe refactor the WI to make it more obvious where we block
<ttx> looks like this is blocking on one or more work yitems that are piori to all others
<ttx> prior
<ttx> but that doesn't appear in the work item for that spec
<ttx> server-lucid-ec2-config: 0%
<mathiaz> ttx: and how do you express that a WI is blocking others?
<ttx> you don't, but having one INPROGRESS shows what you're working on
<ttx> mathiaz: my understanding is that what you're doing (clearing out the basic infra stuff) isn't reflected in any WI currently
<mathiaz> ttx: ah - I though INPROGRESS was equal to TODO
<ttx> mathiaz: it's equal for the machine
<zul> same
<ttx> the report considers it the same. But /I/ understand better what you're blocking on
<smoser> server-lucid-ec2-config: i'm still working on getting all the config stuff pulled in.  the cloud-config is largely functional in the released images, and more in ec2-init bzr
<smoser> there are a few items left to pull in: EBS mounts, ephemeral storage RAID or mount points, runurl
<mathiaz> ttx: ok
<ttx> smoser: when do you think you can have boothooks/ec2-config completed ?
<smoser> before next week.
<ttx> smoser: cool, that will give us time to discuss XC2, then ;)
<smoser> yeah
<ttx> Moving to people under 30%
<ttx> mathiaz - 10%
<ttx> I think we know where its blocking
<ttx> hm, everyone is under 30%
<ttx> Let's burn some work items, everyone :)
<ttx> jiboumans: anything you wanted to add ?
<jiboumans> ttx: to focus on getting the specs in shape for next weeks sprint
<jiboumans> if you have anything you need f2f time with the team, or others of the platform team, make sure your code's in a shape to get cracking straight away on monday
<jiboumans> that is all, thank you :)
<jiboumans> [TOPIC] server-lucid-papercuts (ttx)
<MootBot> New Topic:  server-lucid-papercuts (ttx)
<ttx> So the effort was announced, and we now have...
<ttx> 4 external papercutters members
<ttx> and...
<ttx> 18 nominations so far
 * alexm started nominating today, more to come
<ttx> Please continue to blog about it, we are not overwhelmed yet :)
<jiboumans> alexm++
<jiboumans> ttx: remind us, what's the next step?
<ttx> Today I wanted to discuss measurable objectives, if any
<ttx> Should we have a papercut-fixing target goal ?
<ttx> The desktop papercutters had to fix 10bugs per week, during 10 weeks
<ttx> Should we also have a plan, or just people taking up accepted bugs from that bug list when they can ?
<mathiaz> ttx: well - it depends on how many submission we have
<zul> well we have 18 nominations so far so maybe 2 a week so far and adjust according as time goes by
<mathiaz> ttx: have bugs already been accepted?
<ttx> no. We can't commit much time to fixing them before FF anyway
<mathiaz> ttx: I know I've already declined one bug (about mysql)
<ttx> We could have a session during the meeting where we approve them
<jiboumans> i do like hte idea of taking x bugs for y weeks (in our case the betas probably)
<ttx> though that would overload the meeting
<mathiaz> ttx: well - the list of nomination need to be approved at some point
<mathiaz> ttx: *then* people can start working on a fix
<ttx> ok, I propose that we review the papercuts proposals in next meeting... but lets make it quick, people should review them in advance
<ttx> and we have a quick +1 round
<jiboumans> agreed
<ttx> we'll do it at the end of the meeting, on the remaining time
<jiboumans> ttx: want an action of some sort?
<ttx> jiboumans: yes, action me on announcing that
<jiboumans> [ACTION] ttx to announce papercuts nominations
<MootBot> ACTION received:  ttx to announce papercuts nominations
<ttx> we want as many papercutters as we can to participate in that review
<ttx> so I'll announce externally
<ttx> and we'll try to do an x bugs / y weeks thing.
<ttx> I'm done
<jiboumans> excellent
<jiboumans> [TOPIC] server-lucid-apport-hooks update (zul)
<MootBot> New Topic:  server-lucid-apport-hooks update (zul)
<jiboumans> same for you: what's the current status and what'st he next steps?
<zul> so php5, eucalyptus is done for the high priority ones, samba is being worked on now, and vmbuilder hasnt started yet
<zul> i havent gotten any contributions from the community yet
<ttx> Doing apport hooks is easy ! and fun !
<jiboumans> zul, mathiaz: any suggestions where we might find interested parties? at the UDS session it seemed lots of people had input at least
<zul> yes it is!
<zul> jiboumans: i prodded some people on the security team to help out as well
<alexm> ttx: too bad they're not in Perl :P
<zul> jiboumans: maybe send an email to ubuntu-server
<Daviey> It might be a good idea to have a blog post + link to "how to".
<ttx> alexm: if you can do perl, you can do apport hooks, python is not very complex :)
<alexm> :D
<jiboumans> daviey: agreed
<ttx> Daviey: we sorta have that
<jiboumans> alexm: from one perl guy to another: think of python as the llama book and you'll be fine ;)
<ttx> Daviey: zul blogged about it and the server/apporthooks wikipage has links to doc
<ttx> Daviey: but yes, zul should have done a DeveloperWeek session on server apport hooks :)
<Daviey> ttx: Without actively searching, i can't think of a  "how to write apport hooks" post or wiki page i've seen linked to
<jiboumans> let's do another call then on the lists and point people at the blog/page
<Daviey> really!?  /me wonders how he missed that
 * Daviey hides.
<jiboumans> [ACTION] zul to do another call to action for the apport hooks involvement
<MootBot> ACTION received:  zul to do another call to action for the apport hooks involvement
<zul> acked
<ttx> Daviey: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/ApportHooks
<jiboumans> zul: anything else on apport hooks?
<zul> nope
<jiboumans> [TOPIC] PHP 5.3 for lucid (zul)
<MootBot> New Topic:  PHP 5.3 for lucid (zul)
<zul> so alot of people have been asking about php 5.3 for lucid
<zul> mathiaz has bugged me a couple of times about it as well
<zul> and i checked with debian and they want to move to 5.3 for squeeze
<zul> my preference is to stay with 5.2 for lucid but that isnt popular
<Daviey> zul: Have you thought about what to do with the short tag deprecation.. AIUI PHP are now shipping with it disabled, but it will break a whole lot of websites.
<zul> the reason why to stay with 5.2 for lucid is that php 5.3 breaks applications such as mediawiki and drupal 5 doesnt support it (but we do have drupal )
<zul> Daviey: i think debian is disabling it as well
<zul> i just want to know what poeple think
 * Daviey agrees with zul that 5.2 is safer for an LTS.. However, -security might feel differently.
<zul> the discussion for php 5.3 in debian is at http://lists.alioth.debian.org/pipermail/pkg-php-maint/2010-January/006602.html
<ttx> zul: so the choice is between old 5.2 or incompatible 5.3 ?
<mathiaz> zul: do you have a list of other important webapps that break /don't support 5.3?
<ttx> zul: any indication of upstream support lifetime for both versions ?
<zul> mediawiki and drupal is the one i know about right now
<Daviey> mathiaz: ANY code snippet using <? rather than <?PHP , with the settings shipped as default.
<zul> ttx: 5.3 will get security updates faster than 5.2
<jmdault> Question: is it possible to ship 5.2 but to have the possibility to have 5.3 in backports?
<mathiaz> jmdault: yes
<zul> 5.2 and 5.3 dont install nicely at the same time right now
<mathiaz> zul: faster - how about longer?
<zul> mathiaz: no idea
<nijaba> Magento and Joomla seem to have issues as well
<ttx> I'd follow the jmdault suggestion
<jiboumans> i dont think it's realistic to repackage all those for php5.3 before ff
<ttx> if it breaks several apps we care about
<ttx> we need to think "platform"
<ttx> and ship what is required upper in the stack to run
<ttx> not necessarily what the developers want to use
<ttx> they can use backports for that
 * nijaba fully agrees
<ttx>  /but/ I'd throw a discussion on ubuntu-devel about it
<ttx> just to take the wolves temperature.
<mathiaz> zul: ^^ yes - I'd request for feedback on -devel and -server
<jiboumans> if there's no other breakage other than configuration, we may have an option to ship a different default config
<mathiaz> zul: outlining which application are *currently* not working with 5.3
<ttx> zul: how feasible is it to ship both ? (/me shows PHP ignorance)
<zul> ttx: it would be alot of work
<soren> They can't coexist.
<ttx> zul: ok, it was never done before
<mathiaz> ttx: I don't think we wanna do that - as it means one would in be universe the other in main
<mathiaz> ttx: and then which one in main?
<mathiaz> we're back to square one then
<ttx> mathiaz: my question was about how did we handle similar transitions in the past. If there never was 2 PHPs, its not the timt to introduce that
<mathiaz> I'd suggest we go with 5.2 in main for lucid, and ship 5.3 in -backports if there is a lot of demand
<jiboumans> [ACTION] zul to raise php5.3 update on -server and -devel mailinglist. outline which apps are currently not working with 5.3
<MootBot> ACTION received:  zul to raise php5.3 update on -server and -devel mailinglist. outline which apps are currently not working with 5.3
<jmdault> Two versions of PHP don't work
<zul> acked
<ttx> jmdault: cool, one more reason to hate it
 * Daviey seems to remember we had a similar discussion for 5.3 inclusion in karmic.
<jmdault> I tried that in the past for Mandriva, and hell broke loose
<jiboumans> anything else on the php front zul?
<zul> nope
<jiboumans> [TOPIC] Weekly Updates & Questions for the QA Team (soren)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Weekly Updates & Questions for the QA Team (soren)
<jmdault> Daviey: I remember a similar discussion for PHP3 ;-)
<soren> Hm...
<soren> I don't have anything to report, I think.
<soren> Questions?
<jiboumans> soren: we're interested in hwo the automated qa thing is going of course
<soren> jiboumans: It's going well.
<alexm> soren++, yesterday's class on server automation was great
<ttx> soren: yep, sounds like funny stuff :)
<soren> jiboumans: The PPA builds have been moved to a team ppa, so more people are being notified of build failures..
<soren> I'm working on getting more of the qa-regression-testing tests run on a daily basis..
<soren> and the ISO testing thing will hopefully be moved to the DC soon-ish.
<mathiaz> soren: what's the ISO testing thing?
<jiboumans> soren++ the testing phase was long overdue
<ttx> soren: any progress on the server QA position ?
<soren> mathiaz: My automated ISO testing thing. I had a UDW session on it last night, if you care to read the logs.
<soren> mathiaz: I'll be demoing it next week, if not.
<soren> ttx: Yes. "Some".
<soren> :)
<mathiaz> soren: with screenshots and the framebuffer?
<soren> mathiaz: Yup.
<alexm> mathiaz: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/devweek1001/AutoServerTests
<soren> Hang on, let me find a link for you..
<mathiaz> soren: alexm: thanks
<ttx> alexm++
<soren> http://people.canonical.com/~soren/lamplvminstall.avi
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://people.canonical.com/~soren/lamplvminstall.avi
<soren> That's an automatic LAMP install with LVM "partitioning".
<soren> It fails in the end, but it sort of shows a bit of what's going on.
<mathiaz> soren: great - thanks
<jiboumans> any other questions for soren or the QA team?
<jiboumans> ok, moving on
<jiboumans> [TOPIC] Weekly Updates & Questions for the Kernel Team (jjohansen)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Weekly Updates & Questions for the Kernel Team (jjohansen)
<jiboumans> specifically: Summarize outcome of discussion about bug 494565 (smoser, jjohansen)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 494565 in linux "support ramdiskless boot for relevant kvm drive interfaces in -virtual" [High,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/494565
<smoser> jjohansen, ?
<smoser> otherwise i'll just go.
<jjohansen> we changed the suggested configs to builtin
<jjohansen> ie. virtio, virtnet, and 1 scsi
<jjohansen> it boots in limited testing
<jjohansen> I have test images for any who want, or you can wait for the next kernel upload
<ttx> jjohansen: eta for next kernel upload ?
<jjohansen> there is some concern about these configs changing behavior, so we need wide testing
<jjohansen> ttx: my guess is friday
<jiboumans> jjohansen: can our QA setup help with this?
<jjohansen> I don't know
<jiboumans> soren: ^
<ttx> jjohansen: I didn't see a real conclusion to that ML thread, I guess the kernel team decided it was reasonably risk-free ?
<soren> Not really.
<soren> Well..
<jjohansen> well reasonably risk free
<jjohansen> there is some concern
<soren> Some, not not anywhere near the amount of testing we'd get by just putting it out there and have people report back when things blow up.
<jjohansen> the virt configs always present themselves
<ttx> jjohansen: My concern is if it would blow up some fringe server hardware that always worked well, and nobody tests before release
<jiboumans> jjohansen: i guess our real question is how do we know it's safe to put this in an LTS, and when is the latest point we need to decide?
<jjohansen> right, there is no guarentee
<soren> I'm curious..
<jjohansen> we don't know of anything breaking, and don't believe anything should
<soren> What driver are people using if this one doesn't work for them?
<soren> What is the canonical replacement for it?
<jjohansen> soren: which driver are you referring to?
<jjohansen> virtio, virtnet, scsi?
<soren> the scsi one that seems to be the main concern.
<jjohansen> actually I am more concerned on virt
<soren> Why?
<jjohansen> the scsi driver has been around long enough we are reasonably confident that its bugs have been worked out
<jiboumans> i think this dense enough to warrant a face 2 face discussion
<jiboumans> as you'll all be at next weeks sprint, i suggest we raise the issue there
<jiboumans> is that ok?
<jjohansen> good idea
<soren> ok
<jiboumans> thanks
<jiboumans> jjohansen++ for fixing kernels
<jiboumans> [TOPIC] Assigned and to-be-assigned bugs: http://qa.ubuntu.com/reports/team-assigned/canonical-server-assigned-bug-tasks.html (ttx)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Assigned and to-be-assigned bugs: http://qa.ubuntu.com/reports/team-assigned/canonical-server-assigned-bug-tasks.html (ttx)
<ttx> Nothing assigned to team
<ttx> I noticed a ew "New" bugs there, those should probably be Confirmed or Triaged if they have an assignee
<ttx> One question, about http://launchpad.net/bugs/499520
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 499520 in vm-builder "default uec-image requires at least 300 M of RAM to run - m1.small and c1.medium not needed by default" [High,New]
<ttx> smoser: ^
<ttx> Do we finally know what caused the surge in RAM usage ?
<ttx> I know soren asked a question about it
<smoser> i gave soren some feed back. i'm not sure.
<soren> I talked to the kernel guys about it.
<smoser> my suspicion is upstart, or rather loads of jobs running parrallel that previously ran serial
<soren> They seemed to think we were reading the numbers wrong. They made a convincing argument.
<smoser> at least in boot that would account for balloon
<smoser> soren if we're reading the numbers wrong, then so is OOM
<smoser> as that is what pointed out the problem, processes dieing
<ttx> ok, I'd want to know where this one is coming from, and where it can be going. Should we just switch our minds to a mode where a minimal image needs 300Mb of RAM...
<nijaba> another subject for the sprint?
<soren> smoser: It doesn't say anything about OOM in the bug?
<ttx> nijaba: yes
<ttx> jiboumans: done, next
<smoser> soren, well "fails to boot" i think . but maybe its not there.
<jiboumans> [TOPIC] Open Discussion
<MootBot> New Topic:  Open Discussion
<jiboumans> eh, oops
<jiboumans> [TOPIC] Weekly SRU review: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/KnowledgeBase#SRU%20weekly%20review (mathiaz)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Weekly SRU review: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/KnowledgeBase#SRU%20weekly%20review (mathiaz)
<jiboumans> that first ;)
<kirkland> ttx: i'd like to think a minimal image should run in 256MB of mem
<smoser> we no longer need 300Mb of RAM for boot, as swap is being enabled again. so that avoids OOM.
<ttx> kirkland: yes, me too.
<mathiaz> nothing on the nomination lists
<mathiaz> http://qa.ubuntu.com/reports/ubuntu-server-team/fixedbugs.ubuntu-server.latest.html
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://qa.ubuntu.com/reports/ubuntu-server-team/fixedbugs.ubuntu-server.latest.html
<ttx> kirkland: that's why I talked about "mind adjustment"
<mathiaz> anything worth SRU on the list above?
<zul> checking
<kirkland> ttx: yeah, i'm with you ... honestly, i never run my VM's with less than 512MB, but i think we're doing something wrong if we *require* 300MB just to boot
 * soren agrees
<soren> I'm running a lot of hardy VM's on 64 MB just fine.
<soren> Hm.... with swap, though.
<mathiaz> http://qa.ubuntu.com/reports/ubuntu-server-team/fixedbugs.ubuntu-server.latest.html
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://qa.ubuntu.com/reports/ubuntu-server-team/fixedbugs.ubuntu-server.latest.html
<mathiaz> anything worth SRU on the list above?
<zul> 462172, 480152, 502878, 500457
<zul> 504897 and that one as well
<soren> bug 462172, bug 480152, bug 502878, bug 500457, bug 504897
<kirkland> soren: yeah, come to think of it, I'm running hardy in my hosted VPS with 128MB (+swap)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 462172 in samba "samba "Too many files are currently in use."" [Medium,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/462172
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 480152 in samba "Samba service doesn't start automatically" [Medium,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/480152
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 502878 in samba "Samba 3.4.0 won't let win98 clients to connect" [Medium,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/502878
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 500457 in samba "Please backport fix for point&print samba support" [Wishlist,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/500457
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 504897 in nut "megatec_usb problem (did not claim interface)" [Undecided,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/504897
<mathiaz> zul: seems like good candidates - nominate/accept them
<zul> k
<mathiaz> anything else?
<mathiaz> that's all for the SRU review
<mathiaz> then
<jiboumans> [TOPIC] Open Discussion
<MootBot> New Topic:  Open Discussion
<jiboumans> going once...
<jiboumans> going wtice...
<jiboumans> alright
<Daviey> BANG
<jiboumans> [TOPIC] Agree on next meeting date and time
<MootBot> New Topic:  Agree on next meeting date and time
<jiboumans> next week we won't have a meeting, as the entire platform team will be at a sprnt
<jiboumans> the next meeting will be Feb 11th, same time, same channel
<jiboumans> thank you all for your time
<jiboumans> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 09:09.
<alexm> thanks
<mvo> hello, meeting time
<cjwatson> hi
<mvo> barry, cjwatson, ev, tremolux, lool, doko, mvo, slangasek (anyone missing from that list?)
<ev> hiya
<lool> Hey!
<tremolux> howdy everyone
<doko> here
<mvo> ok,lets start
<mvo> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 10:02. The chair is mvo.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<mvo> the agenda is:
<mvo> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/FoundationsTeam/Meetings/2010/0127#Agenda
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/FoundationsTeam/Meetings/2010/0127#Agenda
<mvo> [TOPIC] Lightning Round
<MootBot> New Topic:  Lightning Round
<mvo> Order is: barry, cjwatson, ev, tremolux, lool, doko, mvo, slangasek
<mvo> Please use (done) when finishedOrder is: barry, cjwatson, ev, tremolux, lool, doko, mvo, slangasek
<mvo> Please use (done) when finished
<cjwatson> no barry?
<cjwatson> I'll go
<mvo> hm, he said he is there, let skip him for now and he can have his turn when he is back
<cjwatson> done: dealt with most of network device problems in foundations-lucid-fix-iscsi-root; grub dm-raid fixes
<cjwatson> blocked: nothing
<cjwatson> (done)
<cjwatson> todo: finish grub device-id work (carried over, but should now be able to test it usefully on dm-raid as well); move on to designing UI for LVM/RAID in ubiquity (carried over)
<ev> Trying to get to the bottom of bug 497942, finishing up a fix for the broken console-setup, trying to decide on the best debconf interface for specifying a package pool in oem-config (that is, whether to require a public key that the packages are signed with is required, or whether to just use allow-unauthenticated)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 497942 in debian-installer "Custom Ubuntu ISO do not work with usb-creator" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/497942
<ev> blocked: design for the page transitions stuff
<ev> (done)
<tremolux>  Software Center work; finished app reselect functionality,
<tremolux>  added keyboard navigation feature (LP: #509783).
<tremolux>  Will try to hit more bugs this week.
<tremolux>  No blockers.  Done.
<lool> Last week I mostly focused on fixing some qemu-kvm issues, and low hanging fruits in vmbuilder; MIRs kept me busy too.  This week, I am tackling more MIRs and working on pbuilder apt config generation; I am also trying to create a bootable rootfs without running any target code (and not deffering any setup to the first boot of course ;-).
<lool> (done)
<mvo> qemu-kvm> nice!
<mvo> doko, can you go next?
<doko> * ARM: review thumb2 problem list, summary of outstanding ARM toolchain issues, gnat build
<doko> * GCC 4.4.3 packages
<doko> * some python updates
<doko> * first batch of package syncs and merges
<doko> * blocked on sun-java partner upload
<doko> (done)
<mvo> thanks
<mvo> worked on apt-dynamic cdrom spec (via libudev), support-timeframe-information, will work on software-center (reviews branch, local repository support)
<mvo> (done)
<lool> slangasek: Around?
<slangasek> worked on the plymouth bugs from A2; one "solved", one pending; did an analysis of converting samba to upstart
<slangasek> blocked: upstart needs a new feature before samba can use upstart jobs :)
<slangasek> (done)
<mvo> lets try barry again now
<mvo> he is here, he said in private irc that the paste did not made it into the channel for some reason
<mvo> I will just paste his summary for him:
<cjwatson> perhaps he isn't identified to nickserv
<mvo> I was on leave, so it was a short week for me.  I worked on a rewrite of PEP
<mvo>  999 which is now ready for an official submission upstream.  I also worked on
<mvo>  some bugs in computer-janitor (503727) and read up on dbus and policykit. EOT
<mvo> [TOPIC] Milestoned bugs
<MootBot> New Topic:  Milestoned bugs
<mvo> I see 22 targeted, are there any particular ones that you want to tlak about?
<mvo> https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/lucid/+bugs?field.milestone%3Alist=21445
 * mvo got some that he needs to focus on this week/next week
<cjwatson> so for us, two plymouth, two update-manager, one unattended-upgrades
<cjwatson> I'll knock two off that list by main promotions now
<mvo> the unattended-upgrades one ties into plymouth, the notication on shutdown that the shutdown is waiting for a upgrae to finish needs to get ported to plymouth
<mvo> is that something we could talk about on the sprint maybe?
<barry> sigh.  can you hear me now?
<slangasek> barry: ohai
<mvo> yes, loud and clear
<slangasek> mvo: sure
<cjwatson> mvo: can you put it on the sprint wiki page?
<mvo> cjwatson: will do
<barry> mvo, slangasek yay!  sorry about that.  thanks for pasting my status
<mvo> [ACTION] mvo add #506709   to sprint agenda
<MootBot> ACTION received:  mvo add #506709   to sprint agenda
<slangasek> the second plymouth bug should be 'fix committed' by end of day, the server guys have confirmed my fix is good
<mvo> slangasek: cool, thanks
<mvo> next is [TOPIC] Targeted bugs
<mvo> quite a few in
<mvo> https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/lucid/+bugs
<cjwatson> I'll polish off that grub2 one at the sprint - it just needs a test run
<cjwatson> I'd appreciate somebody taking the casper/plymouth one, bug 500198 - I don't really know plymouth well enough yet unfortunately
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 500198 in casper "casper-md5check needs to be ported to plymouth" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/500198
<cjwatson> ev: can you have a look at bug 432422 at some point?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 432422 in user-setup "add installer status message for "Wiping Swap Space"" [Wishlist,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/432422
<ev> yes
<slangasek> I'll take 500198, then
<cjwatson> thanks
<slangasek> unless someone else is keen to get their feet wet?
<mvo> I suspect the unattended-upgrades one is pretty similar to this one
<mvo> aynthing else from this list? otheriwse we can move to the sponsoring queue
<mvo> [TOPIC] Sponsorship queue
<MootBot> New Topic:  Sponsorship queue
<mvo> pleae sponsor!
 * mvo is guilty of not doing that well unfortunately
<mvo> the list is pretty long
<mvo> [TOPIC] Spot check of A3 specs with low completion rate
<MootBot> New Topic:  Spot check of A3 specs with low completion rate
<mvo> slangasek: that is your topic, right?
 * slangasek throws in a mea culpa on sponsorship :(
<slangasek> mvo: yep
<doko> dholbach did stop the explicit nagging
<slangasek> I put a list of specs in the agenda that have desktop WIs, and are high or critical with a completion rate < 25%
<dholbach> doko: I think randa mails the managers about it directly now. ;-)
<slangasek> please have a look there at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/FoundationsTeam/Meetings/2010/0127#Agenda
<mvo> foundations-lucid-software-center-repository-based-index: that is a joint effort of soyuz and me, we need to sit together during the sprint, it requires a good chunk of work from both sides, its going to be difficult to land it
<slangasek> obviously we have the sprint coming up, so it's not a big deal to have specs that aren't worked on yet, but I want to make sure that they're on someone's radar
<cjwatson> foundations-lucid-reliable-device-id-in-grub: this is further along than it looks from the completion rate; there are a bunch of things there that will all be resolved all at once, and that are a good distance along.  poor planning perhaps.  I know I keep saying "nearly done" but I really do expect to have this done by the end of the sprint
<slangasek> and that if anyone needs more help, we can shuffle things around sooner rather than later
<mvo> foundations-lucid-index-based-downloads-client> client side of the above spec, needs serious hacking too, probably from me
<cjwatson> foundations-lucid-fix-iscsi-root: having a hard time getting a response from one of the bug reporters here, but once I complete the discussion with QA it should be relatively easy to flush this out
<cjwatson> foundations-lucid-gfxboot-update: still no word from DX on this
<ev> foundations-lucid-oem-dvd-iso: mostly just need to write the tool
<slangasek> dx-lucid-xsplash> hmm, I mean to claim that WI
<slangasek> cjwatson: gfxboot-update> time for a gentle ping at the release meeting, or time for hyper-nag-mode? :)
<cjwatson> time to jump on bratsche at the sprint, I'm thinking ...
<cjwatson> I've tried the gentle ping twice now
<cjwatson> actually thrice if you count mails
<slangasek> obile-lucid-une-2d-launcher> heh, I guess that's on the list because someone has one of the MIR's assigned to self
<slangasek> cjwatson: ok
<mvo> is there any business from activity reports (I haven't seen any)?
<mvo> that should be discussed here?
<cjwatson> not from activity reports, but could people please fill out https://wiki.canonical.com/UbuntuPlatform/Sprints/Lucid/Foundations with their plans?
<cjwatson> all the items there right now were added by me, and are certainly not representative
<mvo> ACTION: please fill out https://wiki.canonical.com/UbuntuPlatform/Sprints/Lucid/Foundations
<mvo> [TOPIC] Good news
<MootBot> New Topic:  Good news
<mvo> new apt with libudev support for getting the cdrom drive - /cdrom can go away
<slangasek> good news: there's a fix in lp:ubuntu/plymouth that should let us get plymouth back out of the initramfs
<slangasek> (so if anyone wants to help test that today, I'll feel a lot more confident about uploading it to the archive :)
<cjwatson> good news: merges.ubuntu.com is working again
<mvo> yipiieee
<cjwatson> bad news: I'm probably going to want a bunch of you to help me with cross-compile fixes for Chromium OS at the sprint ;-)
<slangasek> aaaaahhh
<mvo> so we need a "BAD News topic" ?
<doko> cjwatson: do you see differences in packages when cross-building them (at least I do building gcc-4.4 as a cross)
<cjwatson> doko: from time to time, but in this case they're usually not important
<cjwatson> at least if you mean things like bits being left out because they aren't cross-compilable
<mvo> the template has "# Reminder for release meeting, if due this week " now, who is going to represent us in the release meeting
<doko> I think of tests which are not run for a cross build, leaving out complete features
<cjwatson> yes, this happens sometimes.  for this project leaving out features is on average good :-)
<doko> heh
<mvo> release-meeting> anyone?
<cjwatson> I'll do it
<mvo> thanks
<mvo> [TOPIC] AOB
<MootBot> New Topic:  AOB
<slangasek> none from me, except the side-channel stuff I just thought of :)
<mvo> side-channel?
<slangasek> mvo: i.e., pinging cjwatson directly about something that doesn't need to hold up the group :)
<mvo> ok :)
<mvo> 3
<mvo> 2
<mvo> 1
<mvo> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 10:43.
<barry>  mvo: thanks!
<slangasek> thanks, all :)
<ev> thanks
<tremolux> thanks!
<soren> Hey. I just stopped by to say I won't be joining today. This fever just gets worse and worse, and now I'm giving up.
<ara> soren, ok, get well soon!
<sbeattie> soren: get better, man!
<ara> marjo has asked me to lead the meeting, as he is getting troubles to join in
<soren> I'll do my best. Thanks, guys.
<ara> so, let's start
<ara> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 11:03. The chair is ara.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<soren> he's not identified to freenode.
<soren> ...so he can't join this channel as it's +R.
<ara> Agenda:
<cr3> The table is marjo, and the rest of us are napkins.
<ara> # SRU testing -- sbeattie (Steve Beattie)
<ara> # Bugday highlights -- pedro
<ara> # Ubuntu 8.04.4 point release testing -- ara
<ara> cr3, lol
<ara> wow, small agenda today
<ara> it is going to be short, I guess
<ara> [TOPIC] SRU testing -- sbeattie (Steve Beattie)
<MootBot> New Topic:  SRU testing -- sbeattie (Steve Beattie)
<sbeattie> SRU Activity report for the past week (since 2009-12-20):
<sbeattie> * karmic: 5 new packages in -proposed (debian-installer, gnome-power-manager, gtk+2.0, krb5, langpacks), and 12 packages pushed to -updates (autokey, bzr, bzr-builddeb, cairo, courier, ec2-init, evolution-mapi, pulseaudio, quassel, rhythmbox, software-center, vim-rails)
<sbeattie> * jaunty: 1 package pushed to -updates (gdesklets)
<sbeattie> * intrepid: no SRU activity
<sbeattie> * hardy: 5 new packages in -proposed (base-files, debian-installer, klibc, langpacks, squirrelmail) and 3 packages pushed to -updates (cdrom-detect, debian-installer-utils, grub)
<sbeattie> * dapper: no SRU activity
<sbeattie> Thanks to Tomas Pospisek, mzc, PrzemysÅaw Kulczycki, sam tygier, Adam Stark, Chris Conway, Novecento, nesquix, Mitch Towner, stgraber, Luke Faraone, Jean-Baptiste Lallement, WilliamWolf, and others for testing this week.
<sbeattie> That's all I have on the SRU front, unless there are any questions.
<ara> not that I can think of
<ara> [TOPIC] Bugday highlights -- pedro
<MootBot> New Topic:  Bugday highlights -- pedro
<pedro_> On Thursday 21 we celebrated a bug day based on Network Manager Applet:
<pedro_> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuBugDay/20100121
<pedro_> great participation from the bugsquad
<pedro_> ~70 bugs were triaged, Thanks a lot to our hug day heroes: xteejx, kamusin, cyan-spam, boniek, vish, osintsev and yofel
<pedro_> and on the same week i was contacted by the Ubuntu One folks to try to organize a bug day based on one of their packages
<pedro_> so Tomorrow, we're having a bug day on which the target will be Ubuntu One Client
<pedro_> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuBugDay/20100128
<ara> controversial one :)
<pedro_> thanks to Joshua Hoover and Kamusin for helping out to set up everything
<pedro_> heh yeah
<davmor2> ara: is that it's new name ;)
<pedro_> well some folks already started to work on it (yes we have an awesoem community!), so if you have a few spare minutes don't be shy and join us ;-)
<pedro_> that's all from here ara
<ara> ok, pedro, thanks
<ara> [TOPIC] Ubuntu 8.04.4 point release testing -- ara
<MootBot> New Topic:  Ubuntu 8.04.4 point release testing -- ara
<ara> Well, hardy point release is looking very good now
<ara> only some more tests to cover
<sbeattie> what's remaining?
<davmor2> m-a I'm hitting them now
<ara> thanks davmor2!
<sbeattie> woot, thanks davmor2.
<ara> if nothing bad happens, everything will be ready for tomorrow and the LAST hardy point release
 * marjo waves
 * charlie-tca waves
<ara> hey marjo, charlie-tca
<marjo> thx ara
<ara> all, in all, if you want to practice ISO testing, a little more coverage is always more than welcome
<ara> as usual, ISO testing is happening at http://iso.qa.ubuntu.com/
<ara> [LINK] http://iso.qa.ubuntu.com/
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://iso.qa.ubuntu.com/
<ara> and I think that's all from me
<davmor2> ara: only point of concern seems to be the missing autorun.inf and umenu.exe off of the cd
<ara> davmor2, is it release critical?
<davmor2> slangasek: ^  I don't think it is it just means you need to open the cd in browser mode and click on wubi.exe
<marjo> ara: was ameetp introduced?
<ara> marjo, no, it wasn't in the agenda
<ara> marjo, go ahead
<ameetp> hi everyone.  Ameet Paranjape here.  Joining Canonical as a QA engineer
<marjo> [TOPIC] Welcome Ameet Paranjape
<ameetp> looking forward to working with all of you
<fader_> ameetp: Welcome!
<bdmurray> ameetp: welcome
<davmor2> ameetp: congrats
<charlie-tca> ameetp: welcome
<pedro_> welcome ameetp!
<slangasek> davmor2: it's a behavior change and a regression, but probably tolerable, yes
<sbeattie> ameetp: hey, welcome!
<ara> ameetp, welcome!
<davmor2> ara: ^ there's your answer
<ameetp> thank you
<marjo> are we done?
<ara> I think so
<marjo> ara, folks: thx!
<marjo> see you next time
<ara> cheers!
<davmor2> thanks
<pedro_> thanks
<fader_> Thanks all
<kamusin> thanks!
 * stgraber waves
 * Lns rides in on a segway
 * alkisg salutes everyone
 * sbalneav waves
<stgraber> Jonathan is currently away on jabber, I hope he'll be arriving soon
<Lns> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Edubuntu/Meetings/Agenda - please take one and pass the rest down
<dhillon-v10> i made it in just time :)
<stgraber> good, highvoltage is in the channel anyway so he'll easily be able to catch up when he comes back
<stgraber> #startmeeting
<MootBot> stgraber, There is already a meeting in progress.
<stgraber> hmm, who forgot to end the previous meeting ? ;)
<stgraber> #endmeeting
<stgraber> ok, looks like we'll need to do that without the bot
<stgraber> so, first on the agenda is sbalneav's work on sabayon
<stgraber> sbalneav: anything you want to talk about ?
<sbalneav> Sure
<sbalneav> 1) Sabayon is working, so we can remove that from the agenda as an ongoing item.
<sbalneav> 2) Another bug day's coming up, I'll handle that one.  Last one was quite successful.
<sbalneav> 3) I'll be ramping up soon to get the handbook into some kind of shape.
<sbalneav> That is all, citizens.  Keep watching the skies.
<stgraber> great, did we decide on a date for the second bug day ?
<dhillon-v10> sbalneav: :) working on the hand-book but slow progress
<sbalneav> dhillon-v10: You have a branch of your own?
<nixternal> hola
<sbalneav> stgraber: I'm thinking post-feature freeze
<dhillon-v10> sbalneav: not yet, just got down some of the stuff and looking at what can/should I put in it, then later on maybe I'll push a branch
<dhillon-v10> nixternal: hi :)
<sbalneav> That will be the time to work on spit-n-polish
<nixternal> dhillon-v10: it isn't about what you can put in it...it needs to be totally overhauled...i have yet to create a list of things yet for it, but it is on my todo list to get done soon
<sbalneav> I'd like to focus this time on non-ltsp related bugs.
<dhillon-v10> nixternal: yeah, I understand that, it needs a complete update like the kde-docs ;)
<stgraber> sbalneav: ok, let's make that an agenda item for next meeting (deciding of the date for the bug day). Sounds good ?
<sbalneav> stgraber: correct me if I'm wrong, but ltsp's fairly stable at this point, yes?  It's working pretty good for me at this point.
<sbalneav> stgraber++
<stgraber> sbalneav: yep, it's really stable and should be even more so with 5.2
<sbalneav> yeah, next agendat.
<nixternal> dhillon-v10: fyi, friday is probably cut off date on kubuntu-docs...hopefully you will have those done, if not I am closing off contribs from everyone, freezing the branch
<dhillon-v10> nixternal: I am almost done today :)
<sbalneav> nixternal: Thought we didn't have to get docs in until string freeze
<stgraber> a doc day should also get planned after FF
<nixternal> sbalneav: correct, but I am driving a kubuntu-docs rewrite
<nixternal> I own it, I control it, and that's how it is :D
<dhillon-v10> nixternal: lol
<stgraber> next item is highvoltage's, so we'll wait for him
<stgraber> alkisg: Anything you want to mention about fat clients ?
<sbalneav> nixternal: I have no problem with that :)
<nixternal> hehe
<sbalneav> He who does the work makes the rules :)
<alkisg> Well the fat client plugin is working pretty well for me, I guess it only needs a little cleanup with daemons etc
<alkisg> I think it'll be a major success for Lucid, once people get familiar with it
<alkisg> We'll do more testing in the next week, so I'll know more then. Right now it seems pretty solid, I didn't have any problems at all.
<stgraber> great
<sbalneav> Hooray
<stgraber> now, speaking of Edubuntu DVD, we don't have a build since a week or so due to dependency issue, a new livefs script has been uploaded, so I expect to get a DVD image tomorrow. If not, I'll need to poke ubuntu-release about it.
<sbalneav> The dep's nothing I/We did, is it?
<stgraber> Also, we have seen no activity on that bug open to get rid off these 2GB of extra packages on the DVD. I'll probably start poking some people directly too.
<stgraber> sbalneav: it's, we depend on some stuff in universe and the scripts only allow main at the moment.
<sbalneav> ah
<stgraber> sbalneav: there was a technical board decision that we are now allowed to build on universe but it was never actually applied to the scripts ...
<stgraber> it's now fixed since yesterday and so the next DVD build should work.
<sbalneav> perfect.
<sbalneav> And the sabayon issue that you and I fixed is ok>
<sbalneav> ?
<alkisg> So we'll get down to what, 1.1 Gb?
<stgraber> sbalneav: yes, this one is fixed.
<stgraber> alkisg: 1.6GB once we have a ltsp chroot on it but yeah, that's the idea.
<alkisg> Cool
<stgraber> mgariepy is currently on the phone, so we'll continue with the website and then talk about the menu editor
<sbalneav> Good.  Lots of room for content when we can package/make some.
<stgraber> any status update on the website ?
<dhillon-v10> yeah, website bugs down to 4
<dhillon-v10> 2 of them are content design that HedgeMage is going to take care of
<dhillon-v10> stgraber: and there's one that needs feedback from the community, I guess highvoltage can probably take care of that :)
<sbalneav> There a link to the new site we can look at?
<dhillon-v10> the new site is comming out nicely, do you guys want to see our test environment
<dhillon-v10> sbalneav: yeah just a sec.
<sbalneav> Yes, please and thanks
<dhillon-v10> http://edubuntu.frogandowl.org/
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://edubuntu.frogandowl.org/
<sbalneav> Oh, yeah.  Tres sexy
<dhillon-v10> sbalneav: there's a lot on there that needs more work, and just wait for some time, we are going to put up an awesome website :)
<stgraber> looks great
<dhillon-v10> stgraber: thanks :)
<Ahmuck> drupal tab icon needs to be changed to edubuntu icon
<sbalneav> It already looks great.
<dhillon-v10> Ahmuck: yeah, I'll fix that, thanks for bringing that up
<Lns> http://edubuntu.frogandowl.org/UsingAddOnCd - is this still relevant?
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://edubuntu.frogandowl.org/UsingAddOnCd - is this still relevant?
<sbalneav> I personally REALLY dislike the "two great big bands of nothing down either side of the page" web style that we, and seemingly lots of sites have.
<sbalneav> I have a wide screen monitor for a reason.
<sbalneav> CUZ I WANT A LOT OF STUFF ON THE SCREEN!!!11one :)
<Lns> hahaha
<sbalneav> Glad to see that the new site fills up the screen.
<sbalneav> dhillon-v10 & HedgeMadhe += 1*10^8 for that thing alone
<stgraber> mgariepy: status on the menu editor ?
<dhillon-v10> sbalneav: :) we need to get community feedback, so far seems like people like it, any thing you guys would like to add so I can close that bug
<dhillon-v10> sbalneav: thanks :) I'll get that to HedgeMage as well
<mgariepy> for edubuntu-menueditor, again it's gona be done this week (sorry), i need to correct the packaging for lucid. to push this in universe
<mgariepy> and i need to make a quick userguide for this.
<mgariepy> any questions?
<sbalneav> mgariepy: Know much about docbook?
<sbalneav> If you don't, just type up some stuff, I'll docbook it for you.
<mgariepy> sbalneav, not really, but i can learn ;)
<Ahmuck> possible to have a multi-user .wine system in place for 10.10?
<mgariepy> when i start this i will contact you sbalneav, just to get started.
<sbalneav> Makes more sense for you to code at this point.  Just send me a .txt file, I'll send you a gnome-doc-utils ready .xml file.
<sbalneav> I can also show you all the magic you need in autoconf for it.
<sbalneav> Ahmuck: define "multi-user"?  Wine's multi-user now.
<mgariepy> ok then. but i don't have much coding to do, just make the packaging correctly.
<sbalneav> But yeah, I don't see a problem with shipping wine.
<sbalneav> mgariepy: Well, I can help you with that.
<stgraber> ok, so let's hope we have that on REVU this week, so we can get it in universe by next meeting.
<Ahmuck> sbalneav: thx, i'll test
<stgraber> that way we should be fine with getting it in main before the FF
<sbalneav> Ahmuck: Are you talking about being able to install a wine program ONCE, and then it's available for all users?
<stgraber> not having highvoltage around I don't know if we have much to talk about for the wiki and the netbook interface. Anyone has something to say about one of these ?
<sbalneav> hv did a great deal of work on the wiki.
<sbalneav> And I think we owe him a debt of gratitude.
<sbalneav> And beer.
<stgraber> yep, the wiki day went really good and Jonathan did an amazing job there
<stgraber> sbalneav: I'll take care of the second, once he finally gets here ;)
<dhillon-v10> stgraber: I'll probably send out an email sometime this week and list out some minor edits I would like to make, then we can discuss on what should be done and what shouldn't
<stgraber> dhillon-v10: sure, feel free to send that to the ML and we'll discuss them
<dhillon-v10> stgraber: after finishing kubuntu-docs :)
<Ahmuck> sbalneav: once, and then programs once, and have programs avaialbe to all users with the .individual configuration files in each users directory.  is this possible?
<Ahmuck> oh, btw, i'm speaking of ltsp
<sbalneav> Ahmuck: Well, ANYTHING's possible :)
<dhillon-v10> stgraber: would like to talk to you after the meeting, would you be around in #edubuntu
<stgraber> ok, so just before we wrap up, I wanted to mention that LTSP is getting really stable and upstream is doing a very good job there. LTSP 5.2 will clearly rocks
<stgraber> anything else for the meeting ? we still have 20 minutes left
<stgraber> dhillon-v10: I "should" be around, probably not always in front of my computer but I'll read whatever you post there for sure
<dhillon-v10> stgraber: thanks :)
 * alkisg would like to hear details about the "Lucid netbook" agenta item...
<stgraber> alkisg: yeah, unfortunately highvoltage isn't around ...
<alkisg> Ah, next time then
<Lns> Is there anything going on w/Sugar for edubuntu?
<stgraber> alkisg: AFAIK, we have all the required packages on the DVD at the moment, they can easily be installed by using the DVD as a repository.
<stgraber> Lns: nope, we said that we'd care about sugar if someone was willing to take care of it in Ubuntu, so far, nobody answered.
<Ahmuck> sorry, i gtg, i'm not feeling well today.
<stgraber> Lns: it's way too big to add that on our roadmap for Lucid if we don't have someone who can dedicate some time working on it
<Lns> I'm not sure how i could help, but I'd love to in some way get sugar going at some point ( lucid+1?)..
<stgraber> lucid+1 seems a realistic target, lucid isn't (FF is too close)
<Lns> sure, that's totally understandable
<Lns> please let me know what i can do as a non-coder
<Lns> i will do my own research too to see
<stgraber> Lns: I guess that a first step would be to check what's in Debian, what's upstream and what's in Ubuntu
<stgraber> Lns: just to get an idea of what we should have and how different it's from what's in Debian
 * Lns starts googling
<stgraber> ok, seems like we won't have highvoltage today and we don't have anything else to discuss.
<stgraber> Thanks everyone from attending and see you next week !
<alkisg> Thank you all :)
<Lns> thanks stgraber and everyone else =)
<sbalneav> Argh, darned kids
<sbalneav> back
<stgraber> sbalneav: hehe, you only missed me saying that the meeting is over ;)
<sbalneav> Perfect
<Lns> wow, sugar seems to be pretty active lately in ubuntu. http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Community/Distributions/Ubuntu
#ubuntu-meeting 2010-01-28
<coolbhavi> Is the MC meeting today scheduled to be here?
<cyphermox> coolbhavi, I believe so :)
<nixternal> coolbhavi: don't know if there is quorum, and right now it looks like I am the only MC member around, and my membership expires in a few hours :/
<statik> nixternal, don't die before processing my application please :)
<nixternal> dholbach said he wasn't going to be around, nhandler can't make it, and soren and geser expired yesterday
<cyphermox> nixternal, in a few hours?!
<nixternal> statik: I am not going anywhere
<davi> Is Ubuntu hiring?
<davi> How to be a Ubuntu worker?
<nixternal> cyphermox: yeah, my MC membership expires at 00:00:01 today
<coolbhavi> nixternal, bad news
<maco> davi: most people working on ubuntu are volunteers
<davi> ah
<maco> davi: if you're looking for a job with canonical, http://canonical.com and click careers at the bottom
<maco> ok then
<nixternal> volunteerism rocks, been volunteering around here for 5 years now :)
 * maco blinks
<maco> a gnu cloak?
<maco> and leaves as soon as volunteering is mentioned?
<maco> O_o
<JFo> nixternal, you rock ;-)
<nixternal> why thanks
<nixternal> maco: I think anyone can get the gnu cloak
<czajkowski> JFo: aloha :)
 * coolbhavi prays God to get our application processed 
<JFo> hiya czajkowski :)
<nixternal> it seems I have been left out to dry on this one...none of the other MC peeps are around...go figure, I make a meeting and nobody else does
<statik> wow
<coolbhavi> cyphermox, what now mate?
 * coolbhavi is worried
<cyphermox> waiting, to see if others show up, otherwise it will be next time, before the DMB
<cyphermox> (I think)
<nixternal> lucky you, I am on the DMB as well, so I can deny you there too :p
 * nixternal thinks a DMB meeting is coming up as well
<cyphermox> awesome! thank you so much nixternal ;)
<coolbhavi> cyphermox, mate I have my project coming up and i ll be busy at univ so
<kamalmostafa> Hello folks.  I'm curious -- what is "MC"?
<nixternal> looks like Feb 2 is the DMB meeting at 15:00 UTC according to the Fridge
<cyphermox> coolbhavi, I'm in my lunch hour
<nixternal> kamalmostafa: MOTU Council
<kamalmostafa> nixternal: thank you
<statik> nixternal, so quorum is 4 and there is only you left? I rearranged my work schedule because persia told me it was important to be at this meeting and that no applications had been processed by email for months.  should I keep waiting and see if anyone else shows up?
<statik> nixternal: maybe i could answer any questions you have here, and you could cast a vote by email before your membership expires?
<nixternal> I was thinking the same thing statik
 * nixternal looks through the agenda
<statik> cool
<statik> i answered persia's questions here: https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/motu-council/2010-January/002371.html
<nixternal> I am still around, checking on somethings
<statik> ok
<nixternal> statik: as I found out, we wouldn't have quorum on any apps either today or by the end of the day when 2 more expire unfortunately....the only thing I can do is poing you to https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DeveloperMembershipBoard#Application process :( I am sorry dude, I have been trying
<statik> nixternal, thats ok. thanks for your efforts. so i should re-apply to the DMB then?
<nixternal> dholbach had to leave promptly earlier for reasons unknown
<statik> it's probably tough this overlapping with developerweek
<nixternal> statik: from what I can make of it, yes :(
<nixternal> it shouldn't have been tough I don't think
<nixternal> February 2 is the next DMB meeting at 15:00 UTC
<coolbhavi> nixternal, do we have to again reapply on mailing list?
<nixternal> coolbhavi: just send what you sent to the mc list and you will be fine
<nixternal> I really do appologize it had to happen like this, I was really hoping that my last MC meeting would be eventful :(
<coolbhavi> nixternal, okay thanks see you again on feb 2
<cyphermox> nixternal, it was to be expected, with future meetings already cancelled for the same reasons :)
<statik> nixternal, thanks for all your hard work, see you on the DMB then :)
<nixternal> thanks everyone, can't wait to hammer you with questions next week :)
<cyphermox> ahaha ;)
<coolbhavi> nixternal, sure m ready :)
<Python> Good evening
#ubuntu-meeting 2010-01-29
 * slangasek waves
<ttx> o/
<pitti> o/
 * JFo waves at slangasek 
 * marjo waves
 * JFo will do his best not to dump useless info in the middle of the meeting today :-)
 * asac waves
<slangasek> robbiew, Riddell, apw, njpatel, jdstrand: ping
<njpatel> hey
 * apw zones in
<jdstrand> o/
<robbiew> he
<slangasek> #startmeeting
<MootBot> slangasek, There is already a meeting in progress.
<robbiew> hey
<Riddell> hi
<slangasek> MootBot: lies
<robbiew> lol
<robbiew> #endmeeting
<apw> #endmeeting
<ttx> now that was short
<robbiew> #endthef'ingmeeting! lol
<slangasek> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ReleaseTeam/Meeting/2010-01-29
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ReleaseTeam/Meeting/2010-01-29
<slangasek> [TOPIC] Actions from previous meetings
<slangasek>   * davidbarth to review cross-team assignments for dx specs and contact right people (DONE)
<slangasek>   * apw to fix up state of bug #458537 to reflect reality
<slangasek>   * asac and ScottK to review the plan for xulrunner demotion and present the resolution at the next meeting
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 458537 in linux-fsl-imx51 "[armel imx51] hibernate does not work" [High,Won't fix] https://launchpad.net/bugs/458537
<apw> slangasek, that one is closed, so done
<slangasek> excellent
<asac> slangasek: so I didnt review the xulrunner demotion with scottk yet.
<slangasek> asac: ok - this coming week, then?
<asac> wanted to first have the short list of suggested rdepends ready.
<asac> i hope so ... but there is sprint ;)
<asac> but should be doable
 * slangasek nods
<slangasek> ok, now we've got a few changes in the presentation order today, because of some schedule conflicts... see the wiki page if you're easily startled by change :-)
<slangasek> [TOPIC] Server Team
<ttx> Thanks !
<ttx> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/ReleaseStatus
<ttx> Alpha3-targeted bugs:
<ttx> A few MIR that are well in progress now
<slangasek> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/ReleaseStatus
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/ReleaseStatus
<ttx> Except one that still needs review (seabios)
<ttx> bug 508870
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 508870 in qemu-kvm "[MIR] seabios" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/508870
<ttx> Progress is expected on the eucalyptus bugs, since we'll be with Dan Nurmi of Eucalyptus next week
<slangasek> (is it an ill-tempered seabios?)
<ttx> Specs:
<ttx> Only 2 < 25% in the Essential/High area:
<ttx> server-lucid-uec-testing (9%)
<ttx> This one was blocked on basic infrastructure access, but now mathias has access to a working UEC there (since yesterday)
<ttx> So this is unblocked and should go smooth now.
<ttx> One installer bug still prevents automatic install
<ttx> We'll mention it later in the buglist-from-other-teams section
<ttx> server-lucid-ec2-config (0%)
<ttx> This is closely linked to the boothooks spec. Considering the two, global completion rate is 50%
<ttx> Bugs affecting server, in other teams:
<ttx> bug 512592
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 512592 in debian-installer "[Lucid] console-setup-udeb succeeded but requested to be left unconfigured" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/512592
<ttx> This one is impacting us, no assignee last time I looked
<ttx> I targeted it to alpha3
<ttx> bug 510130
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 510130 in linux-ec2 "ec2 instance fails to boot if registered without ramdisk" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/510130
<ttx> This one is the next-in-list for the ramdiskless support on cloud images
<slangasek> cjwatson: who should take 512592, you or ev?
<ttx> also targeted to alpha3, and on jjohansen's plate.
<cjwatson> ev, I'll cover it in my slot anyway
<ttx> In other news, I think you got bug 506297 under control
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 506297 in plymouth "Graphical Ubuntu logo enabled on servers, no more login prompt" [High,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/506297
<ttx> That's all from me... Questions ?
<slangasek> yes, 506297 just blocked on sorting an unrelated plymouth issue w/ Keybuk before uploading
<slangasek> no questions here; anyone else?
<ttx> Ah, another thing
<ttx> server-lucid-eucalyptus-merging-and-packaging is at 44%, but new work items are expected today
<ttx> maybe not enough to make it fall <25%, but...
<ttx> kirkland is sdoing a pass on the bug list to nominate alpha3 targets
<ttx> so we should have a better view on the work left in that spec next week.
<ttx> That's really all for me now :)
<slangasek> ok, thanks :)
<slangasek> [TOPIC] Foundations Team
<cjwatson> Targeted bugs:
<cjwatson> bug 512592 - believed to be fixed as of last night's debian-installer upload (and ev has closed this now); please report recurrences
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 512592 in debian-installer "[Lucid] console-setup-udeb succeeded but requested to be left unconfigured" [High,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/512592
<cjwatson> bug 477104 - fixed upstream, will deal with testing for karmic at sprint
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 477104 in grub2 "After 9.10 grub update can not boot into Wubi install" [Critical,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/477104
<cjwatson> various plymouth-related issues to be resolved at sprint (bug 506709, bug 500198, bug 506418)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 506709 in unattended-upgrades "Should inform user if running during shutdown/reboot process" [Medium,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/506709
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 500198 in casper "casper-md5check needs to be ported to plymouth" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/500198
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 506418 in casper "[lucid] live cd does not shutdown" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/506418
<cjwatson> Feature work:
<cjwatson> foundations-lucid-gfxboot-update: still blocked on DX, on sprint agenda (cjwatson/bratsche)
<cjwatson> foundations-lucid-software-center-repository-based-index/foundations-lucid-index-based-downloads-client: server/client pair between Soyuz and mvo; substantial work involved, may be difficult to land, at risk
<cjwatson> foundations-lucid-boot-experience: just kdm to go; should this be tracked by desktop at this point?
<cjwatson> foundations-lucid-reliable-device-id-in-grub: further along than it looks from the completion rate; code is in a branch/PPA and should be finished off at the sprint
<cjwatson> foundations-lucid-supportable-binaries: ScottK said last week that our volunteer disappeared, so I've put this on our sprint agenda
<cjwatson> foundations-lucid-fix-iscsi-root: having a hard time getting a response from one of the bug reporters here, but once cjwatson completes the discussion with QA it should be relatively easy to flush this out
 * ttx suspects cjwatson of cheating, nobody types that fast.
<pitti> cjwatson: remaining foundations-lucid-boot-experience WI is on our radar
<cjwatson> ttx: cheating in this way is positively encouraged in the release meeting :-)
<cjwatson> pitti: good, thanks
<pitti> ttx: I wish there was teh reading counterpart of copy&paste :)
<cjwatson> (done, anyway)
 * robbiew assumes (and hopes) the daily boot charting will resume once Keybuk returns next week?
<cjwatson> it might be the week after since Keybuk won't be at home - not sure
<slangasek> robbiew: given that Keybuk's return next week is to Portland, not England, I'm not sure it will
<pitti> in the meantime, http://people.canonical.com/~pitti/bootcharts/ has my daily measuring and experiments
<slangasek> Reboots were Needful
<robbiew> bah!
<robbiew> okay
<cjwatson> oh, and I'm going to shift 506418's milestone up to alpha-3, to go with the other similar plymouth-related bugs
<pitti> it's not Scott's nicely automated one, though
<pitti> setting that up is on desktop team's sprint agenda (sit down with Scott)
 * ogra doesnt reboot daily but has an awesomly fast boot to report
<pitti> ogra: 10 s!
<ogra> yeah !
<ogra> 3 to X
<ogra> i'll show off with it at the sprint :)
 * apw wants to see that
<slangasek> any questions for foundations?
<slangasek> cjwatson: do mvo's at-risk specs require any follow-up at this point?
<slangasek> [TOPIC] Kernel Team
 * slangasek takes that out-of-band
<slangasek> cjwatson: thanks
<slangasek> apw: hi
<apw> yo
<apw> Overall Kernel Team status is summarised at the first URL below, including the items called out in the agenda.  The bulk of the items pushed out from Alpha-2 are now done, with one minor item for Apparmor having completed in part (and split into two items).  We remain above the line on our burn-down chart dispite a number of items completing, in part this is due to the linking of bugs to blueprints bringing outstanding work to light.  We will be
<apw> reviewing this at the platform sprint to determine if we need to push out any items.  Remaining items for Alpha-3 are at the second URL below:
<cjwatson> slangasek: I think there's probably no value in following up right now vs. Monday
<apw> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/ReleaseStatus/Lucid
<apw> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/ReleaseStatus/Lucid#Milestone%20lucid-alpha-3
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/ReleaseStatus/Lucid
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/ReleaseStatus/Lucid#Milestone%20lucid-alpha-3
<apw> We now have a linux-backports-module package containing a Nouveau backport available in PPA for testing, preliminary testing is encouraging; evaluation planned for next week.    Suspend-resume testing images are close to completion (planned for use at SCALE), images should be available next week for early testers.  Work on the ubuntu-delta has been slow this week, but we still expect to hit alpha-3.  The two bugs called out both require re-testin
<apw> g (which is pending) as we have shipped major updates to those kernels.
<apw> The distro kernel is now pulled up to v2.6.32.6 and is looking pretty stable in testing, the disabling of i915.powersave has improved user experience dramatically; we are expecting fixes in this area via -stable shortly.  The fsl-imx51 arm branch gained a large update to the BSP from Freescale which is now in the archive.  The mvl-dove updated v2.6.32 based BSP branch is now also in the archive.
<slangasek> cjwatson: indeed
<apw> <done> ... and thanks for bumping me up
 * ttx disappears for last minute packing and traincatching
<slangasek> any questions for kernel?
<pitti> apw: is nouveau still realistic for alpha-3?
<pitti> apw: this is a "alpha-3 or lucid+1" kind of change, I think
<apw> we have a working nouveau backport it seems, some testing etc to do next week to confirm that on more h/w
<pitti> sweet
<slangasek> great
<apw> the plan is to evaluate and discuss next week, your input would be appreciated
<slangasek> the "or lucid+1" option isn't very appealing
<pitti> slangasek: well, I'm not that hot on enabling this late, like in beta-2
<marjo> pitti: +1
<apw> and any nvidia h/w you have with you could you let me and bryce know
<pitti> it would be awesome to get, but we should get it early for maximum testing
<marjo> slangasek: why "lucid +1" not appealing?
<slangasek> pitti: I agree with you that enabling it post-alpha3 is too late
<pitti> apw: too bad that most of us have intel graphics in their laptops nowadays..
<pitti> (for the sprint)
<pitti> but we can try some hotel computers with an USB stick
<pitti> (half serious)
<apw> slangasek, i want the decision next week based on whether we can test and deliver for A-3
<slangasek> marjo: because kms support is dependent on nouveau, and the non-kms boot experience is well sub-par
<pitti> apw: sounds great
<slangasek> apw: understood
<marjo> slangasek: ok, will follow up w/ pgraner & rickspencer3
<slangasek> [TOPIC] QA Team
<slangasek> apw: thanks
<marjo> HW Testing
<marjo> http://people.canonical.com/~fader/hw-testing/current.html
<marjo> Netbooks:
<marjo> Passed:   9 (69%)        Failed:   3 (23%) Untested: 1 ( 8%)
<marjo> Laptops:
<marjo> Passed:  22 (85%)        Failed:   1 ( 4%) Untested: 3 (11%)
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://people.canonical.com/~fader/hw-testing/current.html
<marjo> Servers:
<marjo> Passed:  52 (98%)        Failed:   0 ( 0%) Untested: 1 ( 1%)
<marjo> Desktops:
<marjo> Passed:  12 (100%)		Failed:   0 (  0%) Untested: 0 (  0%)
<marjo> Bugs:
<marjo> -----
<marjo> Open bugs:
<marjo> LP: #510795  No sound when headphones plugged in on HP Mini 500 (Undecided,
<marjo> New)
<marjo> LP: #504315  Toshiba NB100 failed to resume from hibernate (Undecided,
<marjo> Confirmed)
<marjo> LP: #497546  Microphones not working on Dell Vostro 320 (Undecided, New)
<slangasek> I see the same hw testing failures as before... do these bugs need escalated?
<mdeslaur> hey guys, I've got nvidia hardware and will be at the sprint next week
<mdeslaur> apw, pitti: ^
<apw> mdeslaur, excellent
<fader_> slangasek: I believe so -- I haven't seen any updates on them since last week
<slangasek> [ACTION] slangasek to poke priorities of hw testing bugs
<apw> are those three all kernel bugs?  if so poke JFo to get them on our list
<slangasek> marjo: anything that needs discussed about the specs?
<fader_> apw: My suspicion is yes, as they're audio/hibernate bugs
<slangasek> apw: the first is assigned to the desktop, oddly
<marjo> slangasek: no
 * slangasek reassigns 510795 to the kernel
<pitti> that seems odd
<pitti> it's certainly not a gst-python problem
<apw> odd assignement of bugs is normal in launchpad
 * JFo puts 510795 on the list
<slangasek> any other questions for QA?
<robbiew> marjo: do you still plan to replicate Keybuks daily bootchart reporting with the hardware in the lab?  I think cr3 already has the data, just need to steal his scripts for parsing and reporting, right? Maybe something worth tackling at the sprint next week.
<pitti> looks like a checkbox bug
<marjo> robbiew: yes, part of cr3's task list
<robbiew> nice...thanks
<marjo> slangasek: want update on alpha2 bugs?
<apw> marjo, amitk likely would be intrested in the how part of that at sprint too
<slangasek> marjo: if you have it
<marjo> * alpha-2 test report update
<marjo> === Critical ===
<marjo> LP: #505772 - system freezes sometimes after X is up for a while - Fix Released - Critical
<marjo> LP: #506683 - indicator-applet doesn't show menu choices when selected - Confirmed - Critical
<marjo> === High ===
<marjo> LP: #506297 - Graphical Ubuntu logo enabled on servers, no more login prompt - Fix Committed - High
<marjo> LP: #500198 - casper-md5check needs to be ported to plymouth - Triaged - High
<marjo> LP: #503180 - eucalyptus-cloud doesn't reply to requests - Confirmed - High
<marjo> LP: #506717 - [Lucid] plymouth does not display when using nvidia drivers  - Fix Committed - High
<marjo> LP: #506805 - quassel built without ssl support - Fix Released - High
<marjo> LP: #506816 - wl missing after Karmic -> Lucid upgrade - New - High
<marjo> LP: #507343 - Ubiquity crashed in OEM configuration - New - High
<marjo> two are "new" will follow up w/ engineers
<apw> <marjo> LP: #506816 - wl missing after Karmic -> Lucid upgrade - New - High
<marjo> that's all folks
<apw> isn't that normal behaviour?
<apw> i thought jockey disabled all binary drivers on update
<marjo> apw: huh?
<pitti> that moved from linux-restricted-modules to dkms?
<pitti> apw: s/disable/does not automatically enable/
<apw> it was dkms in karmic too
<apw> ahh hrm, then its broken, ignore me
<pitti> oh, misread, sorry
<pitti> that should be taken care of by dkms actually
<slangasek> does that bug need reassigned, then?
<slangasek> pitti: can you review if it needs reassigned to dkms?
<pitti> yes, can do
<marjo> pitti: thx
<slangasek> [ACTION] pitti to triage bug #506816 to see if it's a dkms bug
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 506816 in bcmwl "wl missing after Karmic -> Lucid upgrade" [High,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/506816
<slangasek> any other questions?
<pitti> (actually it looks just fine, but will followup there)
<marjo> slangasek: thx
<slangasek> [TOPIC] Desktop Team
<slangasek> marjo: thank you!
<slangasek> pitti: your turn
<pitti> as usual, weekly report/bug status/spec status is at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopTeam/ReleaseStatus
<pitti> this week's progress:
<pitti> - Lots of work on desktop-lucid-startup-speed; current state of the art is 7.5 s
<pitti> - Updated GNOME to 2.29.6
<pitti> - Landed simple-scan (removed xsane)
<pitti> - Moved to OO.o 3.2, sorted out the MIRs around it, etc.
<pitti> - Some progress on desktop-lucid-social-from-the-start
<pitti> RC Bug front remains relatively calm; we did not get to much bug fixing, due to focussing on boot speed
<pitti> oh, the 7.5 s is the desktopish part only, of course
<Riddell> Kubuntu..
<pitti> the new UNE might be in jeopardy; depends on sabdfl decision and upstream progress, we'll settle that next week
<Riddell>  * new {k,gnome,}packagekit 0.5 uploaded
<Riddell>  * KDE SC 4.4 tagging due next week
<Riddell>  * MIRs outstanding for KOffice: plotutils, opengtl, libspnav, getfem++, pstoedit, libqtgtl
<Riddell>  * python-qt/kde in (unblocks jockey and others) but having problems compiling on ARM
<Riddell>  * https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Kubuntu/Todo
<slangasek> not much movement on the two low-completion specs from last week; sprint, I guess?
<pitti> slangasek: right, that or defer parts
<pitti> slangasek: the important bits are on the sprint agenda
<slangasek> pitti: what does that mean, "the new UNE"?
<slangasek> I'm not thinking you mean it's questionable whether we'll ship UNE w/ 10.04
<pitti> slangasek: no, in the worst case we'll just ship with the current netbook-launcher
<slangasek> ok
<pitti> for now, all I can say that it might not land in a3
 * slangasek nods
<pitti> (as mentioned in "intrusive chagnes for A3")
<slangasek> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopTeam/ReleaseStatus
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopTeam/ReleaseStatus
<slangasek> any questions for desktop?
<slangasek> [TOPIC] DX Team
<njpatel> Hi -- I'm standing in for dbarth, as he's in training today
<slangasek> pitti, Riddell: thanks
<slangasek> njpatel: thought you might be :)
<njpatel> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopExperienceTeam/LucidReleaseStatus
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopExperienceTeam/LucidReleaseStatus
<njpatel> Burn down chart: http://people.canonical.com/~pitti/workitems/canonical-dx-team-lucid-alpha-3.html
<njpatel> Desktop
<njpatel> No releases this week
<njpatel> Blueprints tracked for alpha-3:
<njpatel> dx-lucid-application-indicator
<njpatel> dbusmenu performance analysis completed; performance on track with requirements
<njpatel> slight improvements to the protocol (cross-compatibility & performance)
<njpatel> dx-lucid-gtk-improvements
<njpatel> support for indicator object display for dbusmenu: slider & text entry
<njpatel> cs-deco support progressing well
<njpatel> dx-lucid-sound-indicator
<njpatel> UI mostly implemented; integration with PA progressing (volume control signal)
<njpatel> Netbook (UNR)
<njpatel> Blueprints tracked for alpha-2:
<njpatel> dx-lucid-netbook-launcher-startup-speed
<njpatel> wncksync performance improvements landed on trunk
<njpatel> and echo what pitti said about UNE
<njpatel> slangasek, go easy on me -- I know nothing ;-)
<slangasek> heh :)
<pitti> njpatel: will you be at the sprint? would like to sit down with you wrt. launcher-startup-speed
<njpatel> pitti, yep will be
<njpatel> pitti, sounds good
<slangasek> no questions here - anyone else?
<slangasek> [TOPIC] Mobile Team
<slangasek> njpatel: thanks
<asac> hi
<asac> summary for mobile:
<asac> * uboot postponed
<asac>  -> too many bugs, so we stoped investing efforts and use redboot for imx51
<slangasek> "postponed" - post-lucid?
<asac> opportunity ... but not for long anymore ... we basically handed a couple of essential bugs upstream
<asac> if they fix that in time we will reconsider ... the debian-cd work etc. is already done
<asac> but realistically i dont think that it will happen anymore
<ogra> slangasek, probably not even post lucid
<slangasek> how are you defining "in time"?
<ogra> it stands and falls with a driver for USB which nobody is working on upstrem
<asac> slangasek: they have  code drop mid february
<asac> if thats not in there, then there is no way imo
<robbiew> so perhaps "* uboot dropped" as it pertains to Lucid
<ogra> yes
<asac> yes
<ogra> unless you like to see us hacking debian-cd to produce three partition based liveimages and other awful hacks :)
<asac> * marvel dove + thumb2 hangs -> no progress ... we will have the latest hardware at sprint - and will take a decision on this
<asac> based on what we find there
<asac> * lightweight browser: chromium-browser and firefox 3.6 in the archive!
<ogra> \o/
<asac> we already have a first round of benchmarks
<robbiew> nice
<asac> which yield interesting results ... so we are verifying
<asac> for now ffox36 on arm seems to be faster for spidermonkey
<slangasek> "interesting results" - firefox also takes < 10s to boot? :-)
<asac> hehe
<robbiew> heh
<ogra> *g*
<asac> the other dromaeo bench is in favor of chromium
<cjwatson> ogra: well, if we can ever manage to get some hardware to ship out, there's a standing offer from a grub2 developer ...
<ogra> yeah
<asac> both are javascript benchmarks
<ogra> cjwatson, its high on my list at my office wall ...
<ogra> :)
<asac> we will also do startup benchmarking ... unfortnuately we wont have real rendering benchmarks ...
<asac> but will use user perception
<asac> for that part
<asac> * first lsb lib-test run; raw results available on wiki page
<asac> so thats good news, but we have a few bugs so we will fix those and redo the tests
<asac> during sprint
<asac> * thumb2 review finished and outstanding porting bugs filed.
<asac> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ARM/Thumb2PackageReviewList#High/Medium Prority Packages
<ogra> mono sadly makes our images break atm
<asac> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ARM/Thumb2PackageReviewList#High/Medium Prority Packages
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ARM/Thumb2PackageReviewList#High/Medium Prority Packages
 * ogra thinks that should be noted
<asac> so ...
<asac> image status:
<ogra> whoops, sorry i was to fast
<asac> * general: image production broken by mono (514215) and crashes by gvfs (512959)
<asac> i am fixing mono right now ... and gvfs has a tight regression window, so should be fixable too
<asac> * imx51: in good shape.
<ogra> yeah, we'll get that done next week
<asac> * dove: not in good shape (thumb2 board hangs - 504880 and 505772)
<asac> as already explained above :/
<asac> on work item front things look ok ...
<asac> [LINK]  http://people.canonical.com/~pitti/workitems/canonical-mobile.html
<MootBot> LINK received:   http://people.canonical.com/~pitti/workitems/canonical-mobile.html
<asac> [LINK] http://people.canonical.com/~pitti/workitems/canonical-mobile-lucid-alpha-3.html
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://people.canonical.com/~pitti/workitems/canonical-mobile-lucid-alpha-3.html
<asac> and RC Bugs does not show anything scary on top of what i already mentioned wrt dove
<slangasek> asac: what's going on with liquid?  I don't see any cronjob changes yet; are we going to have this in place for A3?
<asac> slangasek: thats a community effort that we embrace and help with.
<asac> i think for A3 all the packages ar realistic ... whether we will build an image or not is not sure
<ogra> i think there were about two or three packages missing that are in review atm
<asac> REVU
<slangasek> ah
<asac> yes.
<asac> questions?
<slangasek> no other questions here
<slangasek> anyone else?
<ScottK> asac: Could we get some help with python-qt4 on armel?
<asac> ScottK: is that on the https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ARM/Thumb2PackageReviewList#High/Medium Prority Packages list?
<ogra> i thought NCommander is already on it
<ScottK> He may be.
<asac> i would hope it is there if there are issues atm
<asac> ScottK: there is qt4-x11
<asac> is that the source?
<ScottK> No, it's python-qt4
<ogra> its likely not thumb related
<asac> hmm. ok. if there is a bug and ncommander is assigned it should be ok
<ogra> we have issues with it every release
<ScottK> OK.
<ScottK> New dh_sip coming that should help
<asac> ok
<ScottK> (in general, not this one build failure)
<asac> ScottK: ensure that there is a bug and is targetted/milestoned please
<ScottK> Will do.
<asac> ok anything else?
<ScottK> Not from me
<asac> thx
<slangasek> [TOPIC] Security Team
<slangasek> asac, ogra: thanks
<slangasek> jdstrand: hi
<ogra> thanks
<asac> thx
<jdstrand> o/
<jdstrand> as always: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/ReleaseStatus/Lucid
<slangasek> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/ReleaseStatus/Lucid
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/ReleaseStatus/Lucid
<jdstrand> no big issues this week
<jdstrand> I do want to point out that security-lucid-libvirt-apparmor-devel is now Slow Progress
<jdstrand> to better reflect reality
<slangasek> what was it previously?
<jdstrand> Good Progress
 * slangasek nods
<jdstrand> it is a time thing, not any technical issues
<jdstrand> also, our burndown still looks good, but we are touching the line the week
<jdstrand> there are some things that will be marked DONE likely by the end of the day today, so we should be under it
<jdstrand> (otherwise early next week)
<slangasek> great :)
<jdstrand> that's pretty much it unless people have questions
<slangasek> no questions here; others?
<slangasek> [TOPIC] MOTU
<slangasek> jdstrand: thanks
<slangasek> ScottK: hello
<jdstrand> sure! :)
<ScottK> Hello
<ScottK> I got confirmation that the person who was working on the supportable binaries analysis can't do it due to health issues.
 * slangasek nods
<ScottK> Need a volunteer, but didn't have time to deal with asking for one.
<slangasek> cjwatson said he was putting the spec on the sprint agenda
<ScottK> Same thing with the action with asac on xulrunner.
<ScottK> Ah, excellent.
<slangasek> you have the data set for that, right?  Can you get it to cjwatson or myself over the weekend?
<ScottK> I've got a start of a python script that he had done if anyone wants it.  I haven't even opened it to look at it.
<ScottK> I do have the data.
<ScottK> I'll send it to you both.
<ScottK> Do to declining time available for Ubuntu stuff I'm probably going to ask someone else to start reporting on MOTU in the release meetings.
<ScottK> Do/Due
<ScottK> That's all I have.
<slangasek> alright
<slangasek> thanks for your efforts keeping us up-to-date until now!
<slangasek> anyone have questions regarding MOTU?
<slangasek> [TOPIC] AOB
<slangasek> anything else before we wrap?
<slangasek> #endmeeting
<slangasek> done
<pitti> thanks everyone
<slangasek> thanks, all - safe travels if you're traveling this weekend!
<ogra> yay
<ogra> slangasek, ejoy the quietness in the channels while we all trave :)
<ogra> +l
#ubuntu-meeting 2010-01-30
<humphreybc> morning everyone
<waltmenz> good afternoon
<thorwil> evening! :)
<humphreybc> hi hi
<IlyaHaykinson_> it's exactly noon for me, and the dead of night for folks in india, and the morning in australia
<humphreybc> yup, 9am in NZ
<humphreybc> on sunday
<wolter> hi all
<wolter> reporting in
<humphreybc> i haven't been up this early on sunday for quite a while
<humphreybc> gidday wolter
<IlyaHaykinson_> humphreybc: is there a posted agenda?
<tacantara> Greetings from USA east, 1500 hours
<humphreybc> IlyaHaykinson_: yup on the meetings page on the wiki
<wolter> Greetings, 1400 hours
<humphreybc> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-manual/Meetings
<IlyaHaykinson_> ah thanks
<humphreybc> so do we think everyone is here?
<humphreybc> well everyone that's going to come :)
<wolter> well, i think
<humphreybc> cool
<humphreybc> #startmeeting
<MootBot> humphreybc, There is already a meeting in progress.
<humphreybc> sigh
<humphreybc> #endmeeting
 * thorwil has one hour and a few minutes max
<humphreybc> that probably won't work
<wolter> #help
<humphreybc> popey: ping, you around?
<thorwil> heh. great. nothing happened here for hours
<humphreybc> pleia2, Seveas, jcastro, elky, czajkowski: ping
<humphreybc> any of you guys around?
<humphreybc> darn they must all be out enjoying their weekends
<humphreybc> we could move it to our channel, or just put up without mootbot... although we may have some voting to do in this meeting
<wolter> #endmeeting
<wolter> thats supposed to be the command to end meetings
<humphreybc> yeah but only the chair can end a meeting
<humphreybc> ie the person that started it :P
<wolter> humphreybc, are you the 'meeting chair' ?
<ubuntujenkins> sorry i am late
<wolter> hey leeroy
<voxwoman> I am also here - newbie
<wolter> it hasn't started yet
<wolter> we're waiting for the current meeting chair to end the meeting so we can start ours
<wolter> humphreybc, we have a mootbot in our channel
<humphreybc> yeah i think we'll move it to ours
<wolter> ok, so, shall we/
<humphreybc> righto everyone, to the manual channel!
<waltmenz> Ok.
<humphreybc> #ubuntu-manual
<wolter> humphreybc, i will send to the ml to go to our channel instead of this one
<humphreybc> cheers wolter
<czajkowski> humphreybc: yes
<humphreybc> czajkowski: hey, do you know how to end a meeting when you're not the chair?
<czajkowski> only chair can end meeting
<humphreybc> darn
<humphreybc> looks like someone has forgotten to end it before leaving
<wolter> ok
<wolter> already sent it
<wolter> after you
<humphreybc> cool
<wolter> last announcement: Ubuntu Manual meeting moved to #ubuntu-manual channel
<popey> slangasek: ping, could you please #endmeeting
<popey> hmm, seems he did, maybe the bot was blind for a bit
<popey> slangasek: if you could do it again now the bot is here, perhaps it will 'see' it
<wolter> popey, are you aware that the meeting is now being held at #ubuntu-manual ?
<tsimpson> popey: it was ara who missed the #endmeeting command, 3 days ago
<popey> ah
<ara> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 14:21.
<popey> \o/
<popey> i win
<tsimpson> grep ftw
<popey> your grep skills are clearly better than mine
<popey> wolter: yes, I am aware, I was more thinking about fixing the problem here
<wolter> ok, gj popey
 * popey is /95
<popey> bah
<jpds> popey: You don't look a day over 40.
<vish> tsimpson: hmm , how did you grep the chat logs? from your local session logs or from online logs?
<tsimpson> vish: from my logs, I just searched for the last "#startmeeting" without "There is already a meeting in progress." after it
<vish> ah , neat :) thankx
<slangasek> #endmeeting
<slangasek> popey: the last time the bot actually listened to me was on the 15th, and that meeting was ended on time
<popey> slangasek: sorry, my bad, it was ara, not you :)
<slangasek> ah, sorted now - great
#ubuntu-meeting 2010-01-31
<jussi01> o/
<topyli> :)
<tsimpson> hihi
<cjohnston> hello
<topyli> hi MenZa :)
<MenZa> hey topyli
<MenZa> hi all
<jussi01> 1 sec, brb
<jussi01> ok, Im back. role call - topyli Pici nhandler tsimpson
<nhandler> Hello
<topyli> o/
<tsimpson> here sir
<jussi01> ok, we have quorum, hope Pici arrives soon
<jussi01> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 12:03. The chair is jussi01.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<topyli> jussi01 has agreed to sacrifice himself as chair, right?
<jussi01> [topic] Revisit #ubuntu-ops policies including 'no idling' & +v
<cjohnston> lol
<MootBot> New Topic:  Revisit #ubuntu-ops policies including 'no idling' & +v
<jussi01> Daviey: this is you mate
<Daviey> \o
<Daviey> I'm not entirely sure how this point got attributed towards me.  However, I'll gladly discuss it
<Daviey> It's seems not to be such as issue as it once was... However it would be nice if we could revisit it's reasoning
<Daviey> Why does this policy exist?
<Daviey> ?
<topyli> i find the current policy useful. no idling keeps the channel on topic, and furthermore lurkers during mediation could be harmful
<topyli> we have logs for transparendy
<MenZa> then there's the potential for 'noise' in the channel as well
<jussi01> +1, it also allows a way of simply seeing who needs attending to
<MenZa> aye
<Daviey> topyli: if you visit the logs you'll notice that the channel is often not on topic, with ops discussing non ops stuff.. Not saying this is a problem, but i'm not sure it validates a non lurk policy.
<topyli> true
<jussi01> Daviey: no, its on topic when it needs to be on topic - when there are people waiting
<nhandler> Having this rule also avoids users simply joining -ops to "watch the show" which several users have admitted trying to do
<Daviey> jussi01: if people need attending to.. they can simply ask.
<MenZa> I think we'd be spending a lot of time trying to moderate the channel if it was a free-for-all-join party.
<Daviey> i'm not sure people need to be coached into asking questions, or needing help.
<MenZa> i.e. users trying to 'help' with the moderation process of other channels
<Pricey> I would prefer if operators tried to resolve the majority of situations in /query with the user.
<ikonia> doesn't that have the problem of not being logged ?
<MenZa> well, an issue being resolved doesn't necessarily need to be logged for bureaucratic purposes
<topyli> Daviey, i think it's a separate issue if we want to remove random chat among ops on -ops. we could move it to -ot if needed
<Daviey> I'm not entirely sure how i feel about solving things in /query.  I agree that things should probably be logged, but we have discussed the issue previously of people having to state their issues infront of quite a large ops audience.
<Pricey> Daviey: I see 3 other options...
<tsimpson> the off-topic chatter in -ops would fit into the "Discuss general attitude for -ops, how we are expected to behave" item
<Pricey> Daviey: In channel... in -ops... or in a meeting like this/over email.
<Pricey> Daviey: Are any of those preferable?
<MenZa> Daviey: well, the appeals process specifies that if people feel unfairly treated, they are welcome to join -ops for mediation.
<Daviey> This is true, but the item of agenda is eseentially regarding not allowing lurkers in -ops.
<MenZa> Aye, my bad.
<jussi01> ok, are there more opinions on this? we need to keep the meeting moving - if not, lets have a vote.
<Pricey> a vote on what?
<Myrtti> what are the benefits of allowing lurkers?
<jussi01> Pricey: if we should allow lurkers in -ops
<Myrtti> I can't think of any
 * Daviey proposes that people are allowed into -ops, including to lurk.. Unless they cause disruption where they are asked to stop.
<Myrtti> the benefits of not allowing have already been mentioned
<Pricey> yep as Myrtti says, i don't think benefits have been mentioned
<Pricey> jussi01: ^
<tsimpson> I think the policy should be more clear, of we want to say that ops is only for discussion of issues it should be less offtopic
<tsimpson> s/of/if/
<tsimpson> but that's part of another issue
<Myrtti> I think that's another issue, like you said
<Daviey> Myrtti: I think that people should be able to lurk in a functional channel if they wish.
<jussi01> I honestly dont see any benefit of changing it, and none has been presented
<Daviey> similar to the lurkers in this channel right now.
<Myrtti> Daviey: but what are the benefits? if there aren't any apart from "it would be nice", and there are clear negative effects...
<jussi01> Daviey: I think the possibility of a "virtual lurking" is there through the logs, which is enough imho
<nhandler> If a user is actually involved in the situation being discussed, we do invite them to -ops to contribute to the discussion. Why do we need to allow people to idle?
<Daviey> I don't the issue is why we should allow people, we should really be open by default.
<Pricey> I think a far preferable 'solution' is to try and conduct more of our work outside of -ops, in /query for example where it is less intense for the user.
<popey> I lurked for a long time in -ops for the benefit of myself in that I could see how operators did their job, i could learn from that
<Daviey> I think allowing people to lurk, is moving towards the more open applications procedure that is being developed
<Pricey> I see many people inviting people to -ops for a chat and I don't think that's always necessary.
<nhandler> popey: That could be done just as easily via irclogs.ubuntu.com
<MenZa> nhandler: +1
<topyli> Daviey, as for lurkers here, this channel is not the same as -ops. this is decidedly a public meeting. -ops discusses people's bans, personal conduct, etc
<popey> thats like telling people to ubsubscribe from a mailing list and that they should read it via lists.ubuntu.com instead
<cjohnston> nhandler: that requires work.. going out and activly looking through things
<Daviey> Well popey is a "good egg", but he was asked to leave -ops after being a lurker and contributing for a number of years.
<Daviey> Which to me, is odd.
<cjohnston> if the info is publicly available, there is no reason imo people cant sit and watch
<cjohnston> if the info isnt public, different story
<Pricey> cjohnston: This isn't about those people.
<tsimpson> I think the issue is that people won't just sit and watch
<Pricey> cjohnston: The ops have this, because people don't "sit and watch".
<tsimpson> they'll inevitably join-in
<Myrtti> I can't understand what benefit we'd gain for allowing hecklers in
<Pricey> Daviey: Some people don't like your or popey.
<MenZa> I think it's a recipe for disaster, for the reasons tsimpson outlines.
<nhandler> Alright, so are there any other benefits of allowing people to idle in -ops ?
<mc44> -ops was open to lurkers for ages before the rule was changed, and the rule was changed not because of any disruption or confusion, but because of an unjustified fear someone was coordinating attacks while lurking in ops
<Myrtti> and it's not personal towards popey or Daviey, it's in general
<Daviey> Myrtti: erm, i'm not sure how that is anything to do with me
<Daviey> I am allowed to lurk :)
<Myrtti> Daviey: per Pricey
<jussi01> Would it be worth creating  a "mirror" channel that is +m but all of the conversations from - ops are relayed, so people can watch in real time but not interfere in the discussion. ?
<popey> i couldn't actually parse what pricey said
<nhandler> jussi01: If we were to do that, why not just +m -ops and voice people involved in the discussion ?
<Daviey> I'm not sure why there is a feeling people will naturally interfere with a discussion.
<Pricey> popey: extra 'r' there sorry. "Some people don't like you or popey."
<topyli> nhandler, that could work
<Daviey> "getting involved" =! interfere
<MenZa> nhandler: massive moderation issues with that
<tsimpson> Daviey: human nature
<popey> nice
<jussi01> nhandler: because its then too hard for people to ask for voice
<Daviey> Pricey: that seems somewhat irrelevant
<mc44> tsimpson: except, they didn;t
<tsimpson> mc44: they don't because there is no one lurking
<Pricey> Daviey: I was replying to your "well popey is a "good egg",..." line.
<mc44> tsimpson: maybe you weren't around when there was
<MenZa> there was +Z on hyperion
<mc44> tsimpson: and amazingly, nothing happened!
<Daviey> Pricey: He's certainly not a troll, and being asked to leave after being involved for a number of years is bad form IMO.
<tsimpson> mc44: I was in -ops before it was a no-idle channel, and I sometimes did jump into a conversation :)
<Pricey> Daviey: I'm not disagreeing with you :-)
<tsimpson> before I as an op
<mc44> tsimpson: I'm sure you caused havoc
<MenZa> tsimpson is a rascal!
<Daviey> Is there objection to having the policy removed as an experiment?
<jussi01> As much as this is an important subject, we have taken 20 mins on it, perhaps it would be best to move on now?
 * highvoltage waves
<tsimpson> the other part of this item is the +v policy, what issues are there?
<Pricey> jussi01: it would be great if we could do something.
<Pricey> jussi01: Rather than do a little iccc charter, then start irc operator guidelines, then drop that, then talk about the +v policy a little... etc. etc.
 * Daviey assumes there isn't an objection to an experiement then.
<jussi01> Daviey: I certainly object to that. I dont think it serves any real purpose.
<tsimpson> we can try it out
<nhandler> So far, we have had very few benefits listed IMO compared to the number of disadvantages.
<Daviey> jussi01: you bjectpurely on the basis of an experiment not serving a purpose?
<Daviey> <-- sticky keys.
<Pricey> I'd like to repeat my earlier point... that we try and use /query for more issues. In the majority of cases there's no need to invite people to -ops for a mass discussion.
<nhandler> Many of the points raised can be solved by people interested in the discussions looking at irclogs.ubuntu.com
<Pricey> its scary.
<nhandler> I think /query is fine for smaller issues or first time offenders. But for some more serious issues and repeat offenders, it can be benficial having discussion in -ops
<ikonia> Pricey: that's caused problems in the past with people making false accounts of what's happened in query
<Pricey> nhandler: yep
<ikonia> then minor issues have to be raised to the ircc because people are making up what happened in query
<Daviey> nhandler: That sounds great, but i know i tend to react to hilights - which is much harder using a log dump.
<Pricey> ikonia: That sucks.
<ikonia> Pricey: concur
<MenZa> Daviey: Surely you'd only be hi-lighted if you were a party in the issue, in which case you'd already be in the channel.
<Pricey> ikonia: But I'd hope people would still try and work it out.
<Pricey> ikonia: if it has to move further on... it has to move further on
<ikonia> Pricey: I think most people do and most people do use an initial query where possible
<Pricey> ikonia: and we've got the dispute resolution process for hte guideline
<Myrtti> how about a moderated channel the bot automatically giving voices to people that have withstanding issue, ops being opped? ;-) yakshaving at its best
<Daviey> MenZa: no, my hilights are not my nick based only.. and i'm sure i'm not the only one.
<Pricey> ikonia: i'm just suggesting we utilise /query a little more, not replace -ops etc.
<ikonia> Pricey: I don't see that as a probloem, I know most guys do initiate a query to get the ball rolling
<MenZa> Daviey: neither are mine, but I fail to see what sort of hilights you'd set that would make it 'interesting' for you to join into a discussion, or watch it (apologies for the tone; I'm finding it difficult to phrase myself better)
<MenZa> Pricey: I fail to see how opening up ops and sorting issues in /query are related
<Pricey> MenZa: because I think a lot of the stuff we don't want people interfering with doesn't need to be in there in the first place
<MenZa> So, how does opening up -ops have to be a pre-requisite for taking issues in /query instead?
<Daviey> MenZa: that is not really the issue.. Not allowing people to lurk, is in directly against the enabling people to get involved with the ops team, particulary the direction of making it easier for people to apply.
<Pricey> its not
<Pricey> i'm not saying that
<nhandler> Daviey: There are other methods of helping out than idling in -ops
<MenZa> (I agree using /query often is a better option, but let's take that seperately)
<Pricey> we should be doing it anyway as much as possible imo
<Daviey> nhandler: I agree, but potential applicants should be able to see it more from the inside IMO.
 * nhandler fails to see how seeing the discussion in an IRC client provides any more benefit than seeing it on irclogs.ubuntu.com
<jussi01> Daviey: ok, given. however, we are working to enable more communication between ops and users - for example the #ubuntu-irc-helpers channel that is coming up. I think a mirror channel solves the issue admirably, people can watch if they want, and all the current benefits are still in place
<Daviey> I personally feel the way it is at the moment fosters elitism.
<MenZa> A mirror channel is the only semi-sensible solution I've heard suggested so far, to be honest -- if I'm mediating, I'd prefer not to be interrupted in the process by a third-party wishing to give their side of things, but I still fail to see *how* we benefit by even doing that
<ikonia> jussi01: I don't really see another mirror channel's good
<popey> nhandler: because whilst its happening you can pm people involved to learn more
<ikonia> jussi01: (I understand you're just trying a helpful middle ground)
 * Daviey still cannot see justification for not having an experiement.
<tsimpson> maybe a general -ops channel (where the ops "hang out") and an issue resolution channel may be more what we need?
<MenZa> tsimpson: and which would be open?
<jrib> Daviey: what is the proposed experiment?
<ikonia> tsimpson: that's not allowed for transparancy
<cjohnston> require people interested in joining the ops team to lurk under the strict guidelines on dont get involved?
<tsimpson> one for only issue resolution and one for the "ops team"
<tsimpson> ikonia: why?
<Daviey> jrib: Dropping the no ideal policy, for a timed experiement.
<tsimpson> MenZa: the issue resolution channel would be no-idle, like -ops is now
<ikonia> tsimpson: it's been suggested before and told it can't happen as people can't see what the ops are talking about - so that's not transparant
<jrib> Daviey: but this was the previous policy already, no?
<tsimpson> but the other channel would be open
<MenZa> tsimpson: that doesn't change anything though, does it?
<tsimpson> both would be logged
<MenZa> what would the 'general' channel's purpose be?
<tsimpson> it would go some way towards the issues Pricey is bringing up
<Daviey> jrib: and i didn't see it had a problem then.
<tsimpson> MenZa: a team channel
<MenZa> right
<Pricey> I would far prefer an open channel, where we dealt with issues as and when they appear.
<tsimpson> we can talk amongst ourselfs and with IRC users in the team channel, which is open to all
<tsimpson> and the issue channel is just for that purpose
<Pricey> Overreaching rules, that could very easily damage the benefits we are able to give the community are not good imo.
<Pricey> The more contributors we have the better, and not everyone interested in what's going on and wanting to help out are bad.
<jrib> Daviey: you did witness third-parties interfering at times though?
<Pricey> I would much prefer we deal with problem users interfering with the -ops activities as and when they become a problem.
<Daviey> jrib: but it never caused a *major* issue IMO.
<MenZa> I'm not 100% against trying it as an *experiment*, but I'd suggest a zero-tolerance policy against interference in this case
<jussi01> ok, so there a few options Ive seen, Daviey's experiment, the mirror channel, cjohnston's strictly monitored interested parties, tsimpson's general ops team channel. have I missed any?
<MenZa> i.e. if you even try to hop into an issue being dealt with, instant /ar
<jussi01> oh, and leave it as it is
<topyli> jussi01, the "i'm happy right now" one :)
<topyli> yes
<Daviey> just because someone isn't directly involved in an issue,it doesn't make their PoV invalid.
<MenZa> Daviey: How about we instate a votebot, then?
<Daviey> huh?
<Myrtti> jussi01: the bot autovoicing on a moderated channel
<MenZa> Let people vote for or against! To ban or not to ban!
<jrib> Daviey: I agree.  It was an infrequent issue.  I also think the channel would benefit from being open.  It fosters a better image in my opinion.
<Daviey> MenZa: i'm not sure i agree with that, sounds like over engineering a non-issue.. But if you think it'sa good idea,it would be better to give it a seperate agenda item.
<Pricey> jussi01: "Making it entirely open and dealing with disruption when required."
<jussi01> We have already had complaints to the ircc about too many people in the mediation discussion, and we have talked to the ops about this, I dont see how adding still more people to those discussions helps
<MenZa> Daviey: I was being sarcastic
<MenZa> Daviey: Too many cooks spoil the broth and all that, what jussi01's saying
<Daviey> MenZa: sarcasism is less than constructive.
<ikonia> is there a chance we could start looking at things with common sense and without kid gloves ?
<jussi01> ikonia: ?
<MenZa> Daviey: Yeah; apologies.
<cjohnston> or when someone comes in needing help, all invested parties go +v chan goes +m?
<ikonia> jussi01: there seems to be an overwhelming desire to please everyone for the sake of the "ubuntu way" rather than working out what is productive to help mediate the channels
<tsimpson> cjohnston: that's quite impractical
<MenZa> ikonia: +1
<Pricey> ikonia: I really don't like that idea...
<Myrtti> tsimpson: the bot keeps track on who has an issue already
<Pricey> ikonia: We are not out to make stuff easy for us to 'mediate' the channels.
<Pricey> ikonia: If we need to put in hard graft... we need to put in hard graft.
<Pricey> ikonia: We want the channels to be as productive as possible.
<Myrtti> tsimpson: ops would be ops, the people with bans/mutes would get voice, the rest could request for voice or ask at -irc/-irc-helpers
<Pricey> ikonia: *the channels be as productive as possible*. Our 'mediation' is not the priority here.
<tsimpson> Myrtti: and when 2 people with bans/mutes join?
<ikonia> Pricey: moderate would have been a better word then
<Myrtti> tsimpson: fifo
<Pricey> ikonia: I don't care, still a bad aim imo.
<Myrtti> tsimpson: as it is now
<Pricey> ikonia: This shouldn't be about making it easy for us.
<jrib> Myrtti: how do we determine someone is banned/muted?
<ikonia> Pricey: yeah, I can see how making easy moderation to help the channel flow for productivity would be a bad idea
<Daviey> As i said earlier,i feel that having a non lurk policy fosters elistismand we need to remember +o's only exisit to serve the users.
<Myrtti> jrib: the bot does, it already does with the bantracker?
<MenZa> We don't seem to be going anywhere with this discussion in this party -- can I suggest that we possibly put this issue out on the mailing list, return to it at the next meeting?
<jussi01> I think maybe cjohnston's strictly moderated observers could work. ie. someon joins the channel, we ask how can we help, they say, Id like to observe, we then give them a set of rules for observers.
<MenZa> More input would be a good idea, imo
<jrib> Myrtti: I see, so bot auto-voices anyone with bans/mutes in relevant channels?
<Myrtti> jrib: yup
<Daviey> jussi01: If someone needs help, they will ask.. Why does anyone think they need prompting?
<Myrtti> instant recognition of people with issues as a bonus
<cjohnston> tsimpson: keep all ops +v, have a command (!ops) that when someone joins the channel and says !ops a bot voices them and +m the channel.. once the issue is resolved someone sets it -m... after setup requires only minor work
<Pricey> ikonia: its a secondary priority.
<jrib> Myrtti: but there are issues for #ubuntu-ops that do not involve bans/mutes too
<Myrtti> jrib: if ops are opped, they can see if someone requests for a voice or the issue can be handled at -irc/-irc-helpers
<jussi01> Daviey: because how many people think they are in #ubuntu?  how many people who come in because of forwards and dont say anything, but need their issue dealt with?
<jrib> Myrtti: I see, so the +v is for the benefit of the lurkers really
<Daviey> jussi01: Asking if they need help, will only encourage people thinking they are in #ubuntu :)
 * MenZa looks at the clock.
<Myrtti> jrib: one way of seeing it
<tsimpson> we have spent 45 mins talking about this now, and we haven't got far
<MenZa> Can I re-state my suggestion above -- that we gather more input from the mailing list on it?
<Daviey> Can i requesta vote on removing the non lurk policy an a time limited experiment between this meeting an next?
<tsimpson> I agree with MenZa
<Daviey> and*
<jussi01> [vote] Take this issue to the ML and re-visit next meeting
<MootBot> Please vote on:  Take this issue to the ML and re-visit next meeting.
<MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
<MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
<jussi01> only ircc vote please
<jussi01> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from jussi01. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
<tsimpson> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from tsimpson. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2
<topyli> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from topyli. 3 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 3
<jussi01> nhandler: ?
<jussi01> well vote passed in any case.
<Pricey> Good work guys, some nice progress made here :-)
<jussi01> [endvote]
<MootBot> Final result is 3 for, 0 against. 0 abstained. Total: 3
<topyli> Pricey, right :)
<Daviey> jussi01: and a vote on my suggestion?
<Pricey> Daviey: Looks like its been overruled :-(
<jussi01> Daviey: next meeting
<Daviey> *sigh*
<jussi01> discuss on the ml please
<topyli> Daviey, your suggestion is still valid
<tsimpson> Daviey: we'l get all the options discussed on the ml
<MenZa> jussi01: You'll send out an e-mail with the current suggestions?
<popey> B[B[B[Bwhich mailing list?[Bwhich ml?
<MenZa> popey: ubuntu-irc@lists
<jussi01> the IRC one?
<popey> erk
 * MenZa fixes popey's keyboard
<jussi01> [topic] Should the IRCC members be direct members of ~ubuntu-core-ircops and named channel operators
<MootBot> New Topic:  Should the IRCC members be direct members of ~ubuntu-core-ircops and named channel operators
<tsimpson> some background may be needed on this one
<jussi01> nhandler: around at all?
<popey> thanks
<nhandler> +1
<nhandler> (for the last vote)
<nhandler> For this topic, we previously had IRCC members as OPs in the various channels through UbuntuIrcCouncil
<nhandler> If I understand the current plans correctly, after we start using LP to manage the access lists, the IRCC will become named-ops in the channels (since we are direct members of ~ubuntu-core-ircops)
<MenZa> Can't ~ubuntu-irccouncil be a member of ~ubuntu-core-ircops?
<jussi01> MenZa: it is
<Pricey> Can the IRCC only add themselves to channel flags lists by agreeing to at a meeting like this?
<nhandler> That isn't what this is about Pricey
<MenZa> jussi01: So, doesn't it... have access that way?
<nhandler> This is about whether we should be named-ops in the channels (as IRCC members) or if we should only have access through UbuntuIrcCouncil
<Pricey> What's the point in limiting yourself?
<jussi01> MenZa: it does. this is about being "named" ooperators
<MenZa> Oh, right. :)
<Pricey> If you've access through "UbuntuIrcCouncil"... that's just a hassle! put yourself down by name, save user's confusion?
<Pricey> nhandler: And it looks like your answer to my previous questino was 'yes'.
<nhandler> Because previously, there was an attempted separation between being on the council and being an Ubuntu OP
<nhandler> As a note, whatever we decide here will impact "Ops are welcome to apply for a role on the council and retain their Op status, but they are also informed that in the interests of having a separation of power, they also have the opportunity to step down as an Op temporarily." in the charter
<tsimpson> nhandler: we would only be named-ops as long as we were in the council or a direct member of the team(s) for those channel(s)
<Pricey> What's the difference between being an op through the "ubuntuirccoucnil" shared nick, and your own?
<Pricey> 1. Its a hassle for you to do anything using the shared nick.
<Pricey> 2. Its *FAR* less transparent to users, at who is doing what, when the nick is used.
<jussi01> Pricey: one allows you access while on the council, one for a longer period
<MenZa> Isn't the intention of the UbuntuIRCCouncil nick just to be ... an emergency handbrake?
<Pricey> jussi01: Why can't you just remove 'bad' people?
<nhandler> Pricey: From what I was informed when I joined the council, having access through UbuntuIrcCouncil is similar to having access through *!*@freenode/staff/*. We aren't the primary OPs, we only intervene when no named ops are around
<Daviey> jussi01: surely LP integreation would auto remove access when not on IRCC
<Pricey> nhandler: I thought we were talking about 'core' channels?
<jussi01> Pricey: not really - identifying as the nick without /nick ing to it makes it fairly easy, I have an alias set
<Pricey> jussi01: That seems like needless bureacracy to me. (Yes I can't spell)
<jussi01> Daviey: thats the point, we have access through the ircc nick, no need to be a named op as well imho
<Pricey> jussi01: If you have been trusted to act in a channel, why make yourself jump through hoops?
<Daviey> jussi01: except the transparencey
<Pricey> jussi01: If you're no longer trusted to act in a channel, then your access should be removed?
<tsimpson> jiboumans: with the LP integration, we would be named ops
<tsimpson> gerr
<tsimpson> jussi01: ^
<Pricey> jussi01: And with 'transparency', it should be obvious to users who the ops of a channel are.
 * Daviey proposes that this topic is moved to the mailing list and deferred until next meeting.
<MenZa> Guys -- perhaps this would be more relevant to discuss *after* deciding on the "Extend ubuntu cloaks to include more information" -- what if *!*@ubuntu/member/irccouncil/* had access?
<nhandler> Well, I guess it all depends on the role the IRCC is meant to play. Do we want them to be performing the everyday OP duties in the core channels? Or do we want the council to only act as an OP when no other OPs are around
 * Pricey highfives Daviey 
<tsimpson> how/when we act as ops in those channels is the real issue I think you're getting at
<nhandler> Pretty much, I believe that is the core issue
<jussi01> tsimpson: exactly
<topyli> what about an ircc member that wishes to drop their op status? for them, being auto-opped on even more channels is not ideal :)
<nhandler> topyli: Auto-OP was never being discussed. They might have OP access, but they will not be automatically OPed
<topyli> they would show on access lists and be pressured to do op duties
<Pricey> topyli: I'd hope they are free to make the personal decision to not op channels if they don't want to.
<Pricey> topyli: However making them jump through hoops to operate if they want to op is silly!
<topyli> true true, simpler is better
<jussi01> I dont think its useful, in the light of the charter and what was discussed at UDS wrt ircc members "stepping down as ops" etc its best they are not added just because they are on the ircc.
<tsimpson> the majority of the channel stuff would/should be done by the channel ops, then core ops when needed
<Pricey> jussi01: sounds fine to me.
<jussi01> tsimpson: yes, then the ircc when stuff above that is needed
<Pricey> jussi01: I just don't like the idea of you removing people's ops and telling them to use the ubuntuirccouncil nick.
<tsimpson> a council member would have to make a choice, to act as a core-op, or as the IRCC
<jussi01> Pricey: no, no removals would be done
<Pricey> jussi01: you guys own the core channels, if you want to add one of yourself to the channel flags list... then decide it!
<jussi01> Pricey: this is about adding them to the core op team
<nhandler> Pricey: We aren't removing their OP status. But for instance, I was not previously a core-op. Should I be added just for being on the IRCC? That was the issue
<Pricey> jussi01: so what on earth are we discussing?
<Pricey> is this literally a "what launchpad memberships do i have" issue?
<jussi01> Pricey: not really.
<tsimpson> we are moving towards a hierarchy of operators, channel ops -> core ops -> council (at least from a Launchpad POV)
<jussi01> ok, shall we have a vote?
<Pricey> tsimpson: so again, a 'yes' to what i just said?
<jussi01> [vote] should IRC Council members be added to the core ops team ?
<MootBot> Please vote on:  should IRC Council members be added to the core ops team ?.
<MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
<MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
<jussi01> -1
<MootBot> -1 received from jussi01. 0 for, 1 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now -1
<nhandler> jussi01: This vote means the individual members of the IRCC team?
<tsimpson> Pricey: the IRCC LP team will be a member (admin) of the core-ops team
<jussi01> nhandler: correct.
<tsimpson> so an op in all core channels
<tsimpson> as individual members
<Pricey> I'm glad we spent all that time on this launchpad groups issue.
<tsimpson> -1
<MootBot> -1 received from tsimpson. 0 for, 2 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now -2
<nhandler> -1
<Pricey> Rather than trying to sort out user's concerns with -ops etc.
<MootBot> -1 received from nhandler. 0 for, 3 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now -3
<topyli> -1
<MootBot> -1 received from topyli. 0 for, 4 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now -4
<topyli> we can do it as needed
<jussi01> [endvote]
<MootBot> Final result is 0 for, 4 against. 0 abstained. Total: -4
<Pricey> That could have been done in private by the IRCC
<Pricey> its not an issue that involves the community tbh.
<jussi01> Pricey: we have given extra time to that issue by allowing it to go to the ML.
<nhandler> It also affects the charter issue
<jussi01> Pricey: we are aiming for transparency remember
<cjohnston> it could have been read on a log
 * cjohnston hides
<jussi01> [topic] Discuss the IRC Council Charter
<MootBot> New Topic:  Discuss the IRC Council Charter
<nhandler> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IRC/IrcCouncil
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IRC/IrcCouncil
<nhandler> I have made many changes to this charter based on feedback from many members of the community
<Pricey> I still don't like that voting line.
<Pricey> It caused issues in the past.
<Pricey> The decision shouldn't be dictated by what members voted.
<jussi01> Pricey: it changed?
<Pricey> I don't think its good enough
<jussi01> Pricey: suggestions please?
<Pricey> "Decisions will be made when a majority of the seated council is in agreement"
<nhandler> I have no issues with that
<Pricey> If you have 5 members, you need 3 to agree.
<jussi01> Pricey: no, I disagree
<Pricey> jussi01: that rule let us go against elky time and time again.
<jussi01> because when the cc is slow or something else happens, we dont want voting to happen with just 2, like was the case with Pici and I recently
<Pricey> jussi01: Decisions weren't made fairly because of the composition of people at meetings.
<jussi01> Pricey: read it again
<jussi01> Decisions will be made by a majority of voting IRC Council members when at least three and more than half of the total members have voted.
<jussi01> oh, wait
<Pricey> still teh same issue
<jussi01> nhandler: we changed thart
<jussi01> nhandler: where did our change go?
<Pricey> i've no problem with 3 people being at a meeting and if they all agree, the decision being passed
<jussi01> Pricey: I agree with that, my apologies
<Pricey> jussi01: Cool. I'll be quiet now.
<nhandler> jussi01: I'm not sure when/where your change got made.
<jussi01> I just want that if the council has 2 members, they cannot vote.
<Pricey> I don't see the point in a chairman either? No casting vote is needed if we go with the above.
<jussi01> nhandler: you and I talked in pm about this a long time ago
<Pricey> jussi01: 2 members? i'm confused
<Pricey> jussi01: as in 2 at a meeting?
<jussi01> Pricey: situation like when Pici and i were only there
<nhandler> jussi01: Yes, I talked with Pricey about that too. I know I made changes to that line several times
<Pricey> jussi01: ah right
<Pricey> jussi01: yep, hopefully my suggestion above covers that?
<nhandler> Pricey: I haven't seen a need for that line either, but the CC felt strongly about it
<Pricey> nhandler: i guess because they don't only require a majority of 'present' members for decisions.
<Pricey> s/don't//
<Pricey> and/or have even member numbers
<nhandler> So any objections to implementing Pricey's proposed change from above (for the voting line) and removing the chairman stuff ?
<topyli> none here
<jussi01> the chairman is a good idea. most of the other councils have one, either officially or unofficially, but they keep the council focused.
<Pricey> meh, keep it in i guess
<jussi01> please do not remove the chairman line without consultation of the CC.
<Pricey> you won't be tied
<MenZa> A chairman is good. We can just leave that bit in, as a casting vote won't really be necessary
<Pricey> but if you one day become 6 votes...
<Pricey> *6 people...
<jussi01> Pricey: ;)
<Pricey> then it'll be there and ready :-)
<nhandler> jussi01: Not many of the councils have it in the charter. They end up with a person unofficially taking on that role, but I don't think it should be in the charter
<MenZa> It's good to have a chairman, if nothing else, someone to force to chair meetings :P
<tsimpson> jussi01: what would be the situation when 2 members +1, 2 members -1, and one abstains +0?
<jussi01> tsimpson: yes, exactly
<Pricey> meh yeah.. hadn't thought that way
<nhandler> MenZa: The chairman shouldn't need to chair every meeting
<nhandler> tsimpson: It wouldn't pass
<Pricey> the whole "chairman" idea just seems to be LOTS more messing about on stuff that doesn't matter... too many rules
<jussi01> The chairman line is needed imho
<nhandler> tsimpson: A majority of the sitting IRCC members would not be voting the same way
<MenZa> nhandler: I was joking :P
<topyli> ok, i understand the casting vote part now. i'm slow but at lest it's still the same day!
<MenZa> \o/
 * MenZa goes to get himself and topyli some coffee.
<topyli> at least, even
<jussi01> are there any other issues? thoughts?
<Pricey> jussi01: little confusion up above i believe
<Pricey> 19:13 < tsimpson> jussi01: what would be the situation when 2 members +1, 2 members -1, and one abstains +0?
<Pricey> 19:13 < nhandler> tsimpson: It wouldn't pass
<Pricey> surely if you leave the chairman line in.... their vote would be the one that mattered?
<tsimpson> yeah, in that case, why a chairman with a casting vote?
<nhandler> Pricey: Based on your suggestion for the voting line, we would not have a majority of the sitting members voting the same way
 * jussi01 thinks a little
<nhandler> tsimpson: In that case, I would think more discussion would be neccessary instead of forcing a decision then and there
<MenZa> nhandler: +1
<tsimpson> nhandler: so what's the point of a casting vote?
<tsimpson> if it can never be used
<Pricey> nhandler: so why are you advocating leaving in that chairman line?
<topyli> right, not a majority there
<nhandler> Pricey: I was in favor of removing that line
<Pricey> nhandler: because as it reads... that is *exactly* the siatuatino they woul dhave their casting vote
<Pricey> nhandler: then i misunderstood you sorry.
<tsimpson> ok, so if no one can use a casting vote, it should be removed to stop this confusion
<jussi01> I want the chairman line there. the casting vote doesnt matter, but there needs to be a chairman imho. and it should be in the charter.
<MenZa> I'm going to have to withdraw from this meeting -- apologies all around. I have an older point on the agenda; my reasoning/arguments are in the IRCteamproposal page.
<Pricey> then what's the difference between chairman and "at every meeting, a secretary is appointed to guide things"
<nhandler> jussi01: What purpose in your opinion does having a CC-chosen chairman have?
<MenZa> Have a good meeting all \o
<Pricey> "what's the point in any of this"
<tsimpson> later MenZa \o
<MenZa> (I may return later)
<topyli> since the voting issue is a non-issue, i have no urge to create a chairman position
<jussi01> nhandler: as I said, someone who performs the role of a leader, someone who guides, keeps things on track.
<Pricey> topyli: Maybe it is preferable to have a chairman to get us out of issues like:
<Pricey> 19:15 < Pricey> 19:13 < tsimpson> jussi01: what would be the situation when 2 members +1, 2 members -1, and one abstains +0?
<tsimpson> then that role needs to be defined
<jussi01> otherwise the council tends to wander, and becomes less effective
<topyli> jussi01, someone always does that anyway :)
<nhandler> jussi01: I don't think we need the CC to choose someone to need to do that.
<Pricey> topyli: and not force delays and revotes etc. etc.
<jussi01> topyli: no, they dont.
<nhandler> jussi01: I think we should be capable of doing that ourself
<nhandler> For instance, at meetings, the desegnated meeting chair will be tasked with doing that
<jussi01> nhandler: I didnt say the CC had to choose, just that we need one
<tsimpson> the document says "appointed by the Community Council"
<topyli> Pricey, ok if you prefer quick decisions over deliberated ones
<Pricey> topyli: I prefer making the right decisions on things that matter. I also prefer just making 'a' decision on the rest, and saying "we were wrong, lets change it" later if it was the wrong decision.
<tsimpson> if we get a blocked vote constantly, we have the option to defer to the CC to make a decision
<jussi01> Pricey: we are just giving a little more time for debate because we feel the issue is important to the community
<ikonia> tsimpson: I thought that's when the chair kicked in ?
<Pricey> its the ircc's job to decide things
<Pricey> jussi01: another point... what happens when one member of hte ircc has to step back due to conflict of interest?
<tsimpson> ikonia: if the char has no casting vote, how can they?
<Pricey> jussi01: then a chairman would be good
<ikonia> tsimpson: oh, I missunderstood, I thought they did, sory
<Pricey> jussi01: I just want there to be at least an attempt of the entire ircc to make a decision, before things like that come into play.
<ikonia> Pricey: based on your experience, as a former council member, could you hilight why this didn't happen in the past
<Pricey> ikonia: Because the charter said it wasn't required.
<ikonia> Pricey: that may help remove options that don't work
<ikonia> Pricey: but you can change the charter ?
<ikonia> Pricey: why didn't you change the charter
<Pricey> ikonia: The decisions went in my favour.
<Pricey> Well, not my favour, but I got the decisions I wanted.
<jussi01> Pricey: I dont feel everyone was heard clearly and there were many points of view and ideas, so the mailing list can give a better and clearer view, and we can make a better decision.
<jussi01> can we move on now?
<nhandler> Have we reached a decission about the chairman ?
<Pricey> Can you guys just vote on changing that one line, then leave the chairman bit in?
<jussi01> Pricey: changing the voting line?
<Pricey> jussi01: from majority of members at meeting agreeing, to majority of total members.
<jussi01> ok, could I ask for wording suggestions for that line please?
<nhandler> jussi01: He already proposed one
<Pricey> 19:06 < Pricey> "Decisions will be made when a majority of the seated council is in agreement"
<Pricey> Right at the very start.
<Pricey> 11 minutes ago.
<jussi01> nhandler: Im asking for a few alternates
<Pricey> *21
<topyli> Pricey's suggestion is fine
<nhandler> I already said I didn't mind his voting line suggestion
<jussi01> [vote] Change the voting line in the charter to: Decisions will be made when a majority of the seated council is in agreement (with CC approval)
<MootBot> Please vote on:  Change the voting line in the charter to: Decisions will be made when a majority of the seated council is in agreement (with CC approval).
<MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
<MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
<jussi01> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from jussi01. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
<topyli> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from topyli. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2
<tsimpson> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from tsimpson. 3 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 3
<Pricey> (Bear in mind, this doesn't require everyone to vote at the same meeting. you could get a +2, -1 at the meeting, then the other two members make their vote on list and the decision is made for example.)
<nhandler> What is with the CC approval comment?
<Pricey> nhandler: the cc ultimately have to approve your charter
<jussi01> nhandler: the charter has to be approved by the cc
<nhandler> Alright, just making sure you didn't mean the individual decisions had to be approved by the CC
<nhandler> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from nhandler. 4 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 4
<jussi01> [endvote]
<MootBot> Final result is 4 for, 0 against. 0 abstained. Total: 4
<Pricey> I also have several problems with the "Appointment Process" section.
<jussi01> Pricey: throw them out
<Pricey> whoops, wrong document
<Pricey> ignore me
 * jussi01 hugs Pricey
<nhandler> Pricey: :)
<nhandler> So, what do we want to do about the chairman line?
<Pricey> nhandler: leave it
<jussi01> +1
<nhandler> So far, I haven't heard anyone being in favor of having the CC appoint the chair (even people favoring a chairman)
<Pricey> nhandler: i gave a few scenarios above
<Pricey> nhandler: including topyli's +2, -2, 0 one... what about when one of you has a conflict of interest and cant vote?
<Pricey> it could be useful
<jussi01> my change: The Council will have a chairman with a casting vote, elected by the IRC Council every year.
<ikonia> rotational sounds good
<jussi01> So we have an internal election
<tsimpson> agreed
<topyli> better
<nhandler> I would be willing to give this a try.
<Pricey> hehe, i like that evil suggestion, i'm off, back later
<jussi01> ok, just for the record:
<nhandler> However, I would like to re-evaluate this (and possibly the entire charter after 6 months or so)
 * Daviey points out that we are on point 3 of 16, after being in the meeting for 1.5 hours. 
<Pricey> nhandler: don't set a date
<nhandler> Daviey: We are not going to address all of the agenda items
<jussi01> [vote] The Council will have a chairman with a casting vote, elected by the IRC Council every year.
<MootBot> Please vote on:  The Council will have a chairman with a casting vote, elected by the IRC Council every year..
<MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
<MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
<Pricey> nhandler: if there's an issue, *deal with it!!!*
<topyli> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from topyli. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
<nhandler> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from nhandler. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2
<jussi01> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from jussi01. 3 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 3
<jussi01> tsimpson:
<tsimpson> sorry
<tsimpson> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from tsimpson. 4 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 4
<jussi01> [endvote]
<MootBot> Final result is 4 for, 0 against. 0 abstained. Total: 4
<nhandler> Alright, so any other issues with the charter?
<jussi01> [action] nhandler to make the 2 chnages to the wiki
<MootBot> ACTION received:  nhandler to make the 2 chnages to the wiki
 * nhandler has already made the changes
<topyli> :-)
<jussi01> yeah, just want it on moobots report
<jussi01> ;)
<jussi01> ok then.
<jussi01> [topic] Discuss process for becoming an operator
<MootBot> New Topic:  Discuss process for becoming an operator
<nhandler> jussi01: We aren't done with the charter
<jussi01> nhandler: no other issues have come up.
<nhandler> Does anyone present have any other issues with the charter? Or can we present it to the CC?
<nhandler> jussi01: If there are no other issues with it, feel free to give me the action to send out an email about it to the CC
<jussi01> ok, shall we vote on sending to the cc?
<jussi01> [action] Nhandler to email the CC about the charter being ready.
<MootBot> ACTION received:  Nhandler to email the CC about the charter being ready.
<jussi01> ok, now, to the operator process
<jussi01> We sent an email about this recently, and I think we have covered most of the issues raised there.
<jussi01> [link]https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IRC/IrcTeam/OperatorRequirements
<MootBot> LINK received: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IRC/IrcTeam/OperatorRequirements
<jussi01> is there any more discussion on this?
<topyli> looks like we're happy?
<jussi01> looks that way to me
<jussi01> nhandler: tsimpson ?
<tsimpson> looks good here
<Myrtti> meh
<Myrtti> "Service Temporarily Unavailable"
<jussi01> ok, lets wait a sec for the wiki to come up
<nhandler> While I wait for the page to load, were all of the issues raised on the ML addressed?
<jussi01> nhandler: I think I got to all of them
<jussi01> let me just look over it again
<nhandler> :)
<jussi01> I asked on the ML 2 days ago for any further issues or thoughts and there has been no reply.
<tsimpson> wiki seems to be working again now
<jussi01> Im inclined to approve this, with the ability to change it if more issues come up.
<nhandler> jussi01: +1
<jussi01> we then can at least start the LP import and get operators if we need them.
 * Myrtti reads more
<nhandler> We can revise it after we try it out and see what works and what doesn't
<jussi01> How does implement with a review in 2 months sound?
<nhandler> jussi01: I think we should hold off on the review until some people complete the entire process (including mentoring/probation)
<Myrtti> can recommendations and testimonials still be sent as pm to a member of ircc?
<jussi01> Myrtti: its best they go to the ml or so, but of course
<topyli> we've had the time and input on it, now it's time to see where we're wrong. when we see problems, we'll fix them
<jussi01> the ML is private, but allows things to be recorded
<Myrtti> I'm thinking of the geek social fallacy #1
<jussi01> hrm?
<Myrtti> "ostracizers are evil" - I'd prefer to give -1 testimonials as private messages to the ircc...
<jussi01> Myrtti: thats what our private ML is for, no?
<Myrtti> good.
<Myrtti> (I just hate email)
<jussi01> ok, so, vote time then
<nhandler> jussi01: Any objections to my suggestion wrt when we review the process?
<jussi01> [vote] Accept the current operatorm reuirements and probation docs, formally review in 4 months.
<MootBot> Please vote on:  Accept the current operatorm reuirements and probation docs, formally review in 4 months..
<MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
<MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
<jussi01> nhandler: no. :)
<Myrtti> what I'd really want to see is a mention of positive testimonial needed from a current op of the channel the applicant is trying for. If the current ops feel like they have an issue with the applicant, then it has to be addressed in some way before the applicant can be passed as an op
<tsimpson> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from tsimpson. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
<jussi01> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from jussi01. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2
<topyli> +1
<Myrtti> oh, nevermind then.
<MootBot> +1 received from topyli. 3 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 3
<jussi01> Myrtti: sorry, didnt mean to jump you there
<topyli> Myrtti, i think those will be taken into account
<nhandler> Myrtti: I think the IRCC will notice if no OPs in that channel have left testimonials
<tsimpson> Myrtti: both positive and negative comments will be taken into consideration
<nhandler> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from nhandler. 4 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 4
<jussi01> [enddvote]
<jussi01> ok, lets end the meeting there, lets come back in 2 weeks.
<nhandler> jussi01: Only one D in 'end'
<nhandler> (the vote didn't end)
<jussi01> anyone with any views about what is on the agenda, please use the background page or the ML
<jussi01> [endvote]
<MootBot> Final result is 4 for, 0 against. 0 abstained. Total: 4
<jussi01> hehe
<jussi01> [endmeeting]
<Myrtti> and my final concern, just to make things clear: the ops are appointed by need, not just because there are applications for the job?
<nhandler> Correct Myrtti
<Myrtti> (and how do we define a need for ops?)
<jussi01> Myrtti: I think thats covered in the process no?
<jussi01> Myrtti: point 3
<jussi01> ok, Im off, nini all
<Myrtti> right
<jussi01> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 13:58.
<Myrtti> that bot is grossly out of its time
<topyli> meh, what's a few hours!
<topyli> (in the life of a bot)
<Myrtti> okies...
<Guest32953> #forceendmeeting
<Seeker`> #forceendmeeting
<Seeker`> #chair
<jussi01> Seeker`: ?
<jussi01> Seeker`: did it not end?
<nhandler> jussi01: It ended: 13:58:10 < jussi01> #endmeeting
<nhandler> 13:58:11 < MootBot> Meeting finished at 13:58.
#ubuntu-meeting 2011-01-24
<hggdh> ~Ã´~
 * pedro_ waves
 * charlie-tca waves, too
<pitti> o/
<marjo> o/
<bjf> o/
<sconklin> o/
 * ara waves
<jibel> o/
<victorp> I am apparently running the meeting today!
<victorp> lucky me
<victorp> ready to go?
<victorp> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 10:03. The chair is victorp.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<victorp> agenda is https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ReleaseTeam/Meeting/2011-01-17-SR?action=show&redirect=ReleaseTeam%2FMeeting%2FStableReleaseAgenda
<victorp> today as it is a "in between" meeting
<victorp> we will try to keep it short
<victorp> basically status on current SRU and preparation for 10.04.2 candidate
<victorp> [TOPIC] Current SRU - Regression testing
<MootBot> New Topic:  Current SRU - Regression testing
<victorp> sconklin - so both kernels are now uploaded?
<sconklin> victorp: yes
<sconklin> Lucid had no reverts or changes
<victorp> so Lucid is the same kernel from the validation week
<sconklin> Maverick had one revert of an upstream stable patch that caused regressions for Radeon.
<sconklin> ..
<sconklin> yes
<victorp> excellent
<victorp> jibel - are we doing the QA testing already ?
<marjo> victorp: i can give status
<victorp> ok - go ahead please
<jibel> marjo, go ahead then
<marjo> lucid is almost done
<marjo> amd64 testing in progress
<marjo> ec2 - hggdh will sync up w/ smoser today and start testing ASAP
<marjo> ..
<hggdh> I am preparing to start the ec2 tests
<marjo> hggdh: thx
<victorp> marjo - what sort of test targets are we using for Lucid (real hw or vms?)
<marjo> victorp: real HW w/ VMs as backup
<victorp> marjo - so are you still ok for completing all tests by 27th?
<marjo> victorp: yes
<victorp> great
<victorp> marjo - any else from QA ?
<marjo> victorp: no, that's it for now
<victorp> Ara - can you give us an update on HWCert testing?
<ara> sure!
<ara> on Friday we started testing the SRU for Lucid, but the results are not valid, as we are aiming to use the new SRU test suite
<ara> and those were not run
<ara> but hopefully that will be fixed today and we will be able to run the suite for Lucid, we will update on those tomorrow at the kernel meeting
<ara> as for Maverick, we were waiting for the new kernel to be uploaded
<ara> we hope to be able to finish by Thursday, but right now it is going to be a best effort situation
<ara> sconklin, what time do you expect the results on Thursday?
<victorp> Ara - but no later than Mon 31st right?
<sconklin> I'm confused.
<victorp> sconklin ?
<ara> victorp, right, no later than 31st
<sconklin> We have no further testing except to double check that the revert fixed the radeon problem, and I expect to have that today
<sconklin> not sure what results Ara refers to
<ara> sconklin, the certification results
<victorp> sconklin - I think Ara is referring to the regression testing that certification runs
<sconklin> oh, that's up to the people who run them. I don't have any tasks dependent on them
<ara> sconklin, OK
<ara> victorp, that's all from me
<victorp> pitti - when are we taking the decision to release the SRUs on the 27th?
<pitti> victorp: it entirely depends on verification feedback
<pitti> the packages which don't get verified will just slip
<victorp> ok
<pitti> we want to switch over to building CDs from -updates only around start of Februrary AFAIUI
<pitti> right now the dailies build with -proposed
<victorp> ok - so any delays on releasing the SRUs will impact the builds of CDs for 10.04.2 ?
<pitti> unfortunately we only get very little community feedback on maverick
<ara> pitti, any reason why we don't have a i386 daily?
<pitti> ara: how do you mean?
<pitti> http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/lucid/daily-live/20110124.1/lucid-desktop-i386.iso
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/lucid/daily-live/20110124.1/lucid-desktop-i386.iso
<ara> pitti, alternate
 * victorp is closing off the SRU topic and moving to 10.04.2 - ready everyone?
<pitti> ara: ah, will check
<pitti> ara: we certainly mean to have one
<victorp> [TOPIC] Getting ready for 10.04.2
<MootBot> New Topic:  Getting ready for 10.04.2
<victorp> skaet plan says:
<victorp> 1/27 - Martin provides 10.04.2 image candidate built from -updates
<victorp> 1/28-2/10 - HW Cert does full certification run on 10.04.2 image
<victorp> pitti are we still on track for the first item?
<pitti> victorp: we have dailies with -proposed enabled
<pitti> victorp: I think we want that for now, as there is the new kernel etc.
<pitti> it's not _that_ critical when exactly we switch to -updates only
<pitti> once we do, -proposed gets unfrozen
<pitti> but we don't have a pressing need for that right now
<victorp> Ara , sconklin - does that impact you?
<pitti> however, if we have packages on the CDs which we don't get feedback for, we need to do it way before we do the final cert run
<victorp> pitti - the manual cert run is schedule to start next week
<sconklin> victorp: no, we'll continue to make kernels, and when things unfreeze can copy from the PPA at that time if needed.
<ara> pitti, the thing is that we were aiming to do a very likely cert run next week
<ara> pitti, so we need the cds from -updates
<pitti> ara: the final one?
<pitti> ara: ok, but I think we need at least the kernel and d-i in -updates for that, plus a few SRUs which were milestoned
<ara> pitti, sure, sure, at  least the kernel, that's for sure
<victorp> pitti - we cant start cert testing of 10.04.02 until we finish the SRU testing (same people & same systems doing the test)
<victorp> ok
<marjo> pitti: ditto for QA team
<ara> so the idea was to have CDs from -updates as soon as the most hw related packages were in -updates
<pitti> victorp: right, so makes sense to verify the current SRUs first
<marjo> pitti: +1
<ara> indeed
<pitti> ara: right; from then on we need to take care to only let stuff into -updates which isn't hw specific and can be tested independently
<victorp> to summarise - we need to have the current SRU kernel moved to -updates before we can create a CD that HW cert & QA can start doing the testing for 10.04.2
 * victorp looking for anyone that don't agrees
<victorp> pitti +!
<victorp> +1
<hggdh> doesn't that mean that you cannot test the SRU until it is approved?
<victorp> hggdh - we can test the SRU now
<victorp> We shouldn't build the 10.04.2 CDs from -update until the SRU is approved
<hggdh> victorp: ah, sorry
<victorp> hggdh - no worries
<victorp> [TOPIC] Any other business?
<MootBot> New Topic:  Any other business?
<victorp> going once
<victorp> going twice
<victorp> #endofmeeting
<pitti> thanks everyone
<marjo> thx victorp!
<victorp> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 10:27.
<ara> thanks victorp
<victorp> thanks to all for participating!
<MrChrisDruif> I just quietly observed :)
<pedro_> thanks all
<MrChrisDruif> Just a small question....what is SRU
<hggdh> MrChrisDruif: Stable Release Update
<MrChrisDruif> Thanks :)
<jibel> MrChrisDruif, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/StableReleaseUpdates , and you are very welcome if you want to help to verify the fixes at http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-archive/pending-sru.html
<MrChrisDruif> SRU is like the next dot-release?
<hggdh> MrChrisDruif: no SRU is any update to a stable release. a dot-release is basically a new sync point: all SRUs applicable are woven in a dot-release
<hggdh> so installing a dot-release is equivalent to installing the base relase PLUS all SRUs up to the dot-release
<MrChrisDruif> Alright, makes sense then :)
<mdeslaur> jdstrand, sbeattie, kees, jjohansen: meeting?
<jjohansen> o/
<jdstrand> sure
<kees> mdeslaur: \o/
 * sbeattie waves
<mdeslaur> who's first?
<kees> mdeslaur: you! :)
<mdeslaur> hehe
<mdeslaur> So I'm on community this week
<mdeslaur> and I'm working on hplip updates
<mdeslaur> will also be testing dovecot and subversion
<mdeslaur> hopefully releasing them all this week
<mdeslaur> and will go down the list after that
<mdeslaur> that's it!
<mdeslaur> NEXT!
<kees> me me
<kees> I'm auditing this week
<mdeslaur> kees: tag, you're it!
<kees> I've got a few from IS I need to do, and I'm probably going to report a few things on freerdp. found some non-exploitable crashes due to integer overflow, etc
<kees> going to see about refreshing our CVE pool for 2011
<kees> that's it from me
<mdeslaur> \o/
<kees> sbeattie: you're it!
<mdeslaur> whoops..that was for the cve pool, not for you being done :)
<kees> hehe
<sbeattie> heh
<sbeattie> I'm on triage this week.
<sbeattie> Also, I've got openjdk, but am *still* waiting on one build.
<mdeslaur> sbeattie: wow...just...wow
<sbeattie> yeah.
<sbeattie> other than that, I may poke at a few apparmor things this week.
<sbeattie> that's it from me.
<kees> good patch in over the weekend on network logprof updates
<jjohansen> yeah, I was just looking at those
<sbeattie> heh, I was also looking at that this morning.
<jjohansen> s/those/that
<sbeattie> (as well as slowly going through jeffm's other patches)
<jjohansen> sbeattie: oh thanks, I have been meaning to get to that
<sbeattie> jjohansen: yeah, sorry, I didn't more visibly announce that, but it's been a slow process.
<jjohansen> sbeattie: np, its not like I've been looking at it, just had a vague intention to get to it some day
<sbeattie> anyway, that's it from me.
<sbeattie> does anyone else have anything for the security team? jjohansen?
 * jdstrand hasn't gone yet
<sbeattie> jdstrand: doh!
<mdeslaur> hehe
<sbeattie> sorry
<jdstrand> no worries :)
<jdstrand> I am working on dbus-glib this week. after that I plan to talk with jj about confining dbus/applications that use dbus
<jdstrand> depending on how those work out, I'll likely work on moodle
<jjohansen> hehe, and here I was going to say skipping jdstrand just means he doesn't need to talk to me this week about dbus :)
<jdstrand> that's it from me
<jdstrand> hehe
<jdstrand> oh, it seems a firefox and tbird update is imminent-- I might have to work on that
<jjohansen> ouch, I have a feeling I am going to be preempted again
<jdstrand> jjohansen: probably not. I just have to look at a couple of things
<jjohansen> jdstrand: sure, sure ... :)
<chrisccoulson_> jdstrand, it's not due until 8th feb ;)
<chrisccoulson_> you've got a little bit of time yet
<jdstrand> cool
<jdstrand> jjohansen: actually, I thought of a way to do it all without messing with ipc, but need an api in libapparmor1 and an extremely fast implementation of that call
<jdstrand> jjohansen: let me look at things though
<jjohansen> jdstrand: hrmm, okay /me is interested to discuss
<jjohansen> jdstrand: /me is concerned about the extremely fast part
 * jjohansen is thinking we will have to do some caching in userspace for "extremely fast", context switches just aren't fast
<jdstrand> yeah, we'd need to talk about it
<jjohansen> yep, later then :)
<jdstrand> is there anything else for the security team?
<mdeslaur> zzzzzzz
<jdstrand> alrighty then :)
<jdstrand> thanks everyone!
<mdeslaur> thanks!
<kees> thanks!
#ubuntu-meeting 2011-01-25
<diwic> anyone still around for ubuntu-audio-dev meeting?
<diwic> ok, I assume not
<pitti> cjwatson, kees, mdz: TB meeting
<kees> \o
<pitti> sabdfl excused himself, Keybuk's connection is only spotty
<cjwatson> hi
<pitti> did anyone hear from mdz?
 * kees just woke up, so I haven't. :)
<cjwatson> he mailed to say he wouldn't be able to make it
<cjwatson> Subject: Next meeting
<pitti> SMS on the way
<pitti> ah, ok
<pitti> so, let's start
<pitti> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 09:03. The chair is pitti.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<pitti> [TOPIC] action review
<MootBot> New Topic:  action review
<pitti> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/TechnicalBoardAgenda has a list
<pitti> I propose we just carry mdz's until next time, objections?
<pitti> I'll ping bdmurray off-meeting about his'
<cjwatson> fine by me
<pitti> [TOPIC] Default ntpd configuration (bug 104525)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Default ntpd configuration (bug 104525)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 104525 in ntp (Ubuntu) "default ntp.conf should use pool.ntp.org servers" [Wishlist,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/104525
<pitti> now, I've skimmed through it, and must say that I didn't see a strong reason either way
<pitti> apparently using pool.ntp.org is discouraged by its owners
<pitti> and having them create something ubuntu specific doesn't seem much different than what we have today
<xavier_robin> So I asked for ubuntu specific pool
<pitti> so from my POV this is by and large a commitment from IS about how we can currently handle the load and whether we are ok with continuing it?
<cjwatson> um, I don't agree with that
<cjwatson> the thing that is discouraged is using pool.ntp.org *directly* rather than asking them for *.ubuntu.pool.ntp.org; my understanding is that they welcome the latter
<cjwatson> I think the latter would be quite reasonable for people using ntpd, probably better than using centralised ntp.ubuntu.com for that use case
<cjwatson> the question raised by sabdfl by e-mail was whether the reliability of *.pool.ntp.org lived up to its advertising
<cjwatson> and he asked whether perhaps IS could look into that
<pitti> cjwatson: right, that's what I meant (not using pool.ntp.org literally)
<cjwatson> that much seems reasonable enough to me, although I don't think we should take forever about it
<cjwatson> it's not accurate to say "how we can currently handle the load", though, AIUI
<cjwatson> because I don't think the proposal is for ntp.ubuntu.com to be taking the bulk of this, although it might be one of the nodes
<pitti> in http://launchpadlibrarian.net/62623058/ntp.conf.diff it is indeed one of the nodes, yes
<pitti> i. e. this uses both ntp.u.c. and *.ntp.org
<cjwatson> still: we could surely make the global pool essentially equivalent to the current list, if we wanted
<xavier_robin> The GUI to configure NTP is currently crowded with many servers.
<Keybuk> apologies
<xavier_robin> It would greatly simplifiy it to have only a few servers from the pool.
<pitti> xavier_robin: I thought the point of that was that you are able to select one near you?
<pitti> xavier_robin: does pool.ntp.org have some geolocation magic to always send you one close to you?
<pitti> hey Keybuk
<cjwatson> AFAICS the concern in https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/technical-board/2011-January/000672.html is the only significant one that's been raised
<cjwatson> I suggest that we check back with James to find out if that concern is still current, and to see whether there's anything we could do to get good details
<pitti> sounds good; I don't think I'm informed enough right now to be able to decide on this
<kees> yeah, me either
<xavier_robin> @pitty: yes there is geolocation so only pool servers from the area are chosen
<pitti> xavier_robin: that's really nice then
<cjwatson> if it's not still current, a pool seems to make good sense - it means that we won't have the embarrassing situation where we hardcode addresses for non-consenting servers
<cjwatson> it> James' quality concern
<xavier_robin> This was bug https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/gnome-system-tools/+bug/674868 where stratum 1 servers were hard coded
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 674868 in gnome-system-tools (Ubuntu) "[time-admin] ntp server selection should not suggest stratum 1 servers" [Low,Triaged]
<cjwatson> xavier_robin: and other vendors have had that kind of problem too
<pitti> at least I get three German IPs with "host pool.ntp.org"
<xavier_robin> I get local IPs with X.ubuntu.pool.ntp.org
<pitti> as a plan of record, I'm happy to talk to James about this and we'll contine by mail/on next meeting?
<cjwatson> xavier_robin: what management facilities are available for ubuntu.pool.ntp.org?
<xavier_robin> Nearly nothing.
<xavier_robin> http://www.pool.ntp.org/manage/vendor/zone?id=439
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://www.pool.ntp.org/manage/vendor/zone?id=439
<xavier_robin> not sure you can see it.
<cjwatson> needs a login
<xavier_robin> But I have a contact in the pool and they are pretty responsive.
<cjwatson> well, what I mean is, do we need to arrange for a group of people to have access to pool management?
<pitti> xavier_robin: did they create *.ubuntu.n.o upon your request?
<xavier_robin> The would like a contact from canonical
<cjwatson> if there's very little management to be done that way, I don't mind
<xavier_robin> @pitty: yes
<cjwatson> can we give them the technical board as a role contact?
<cjwatson> not all of us work at Canonical (now :-) ) but if it's "ubuntu" it should match Ubuntu project governance rather than corporate structure
<xavier_robin> Yes, that's it: someone more involved than me should handle thatâ¦
<xavier_robin> in fact they'd like someone to register to their mailing list
<xavier_robin> http://groups.google.com/group/ntppool-vendors
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://groups.google.com/group/ntppool-vendors
<xavier_robin> Regarding admin link (http://www.pool.ntp.org/manage/vendor/zone?id=439), there's nothing there, just my request
<pitti> so we can try setting the TB mailing list as contact point; I assume these are very low-traffic
<xavier_robin> Yes it's claimed to be low traffic
<cjwatson> list->list forwarding might not be ideal, but I'm guessing any of us would be prepared to be a contact point and forward things on if they're needed?
<pitti> or at least shepherd posts through moderation
<pitti> but yes, that doesn't sound like a big burden indeed
<pitti> xavier_robin: ok, thanks for the info
<pitti> [ACTION] subscribe techboard ML to pool.ntp.org vendor list
<MootBot> ACTION received:  subscribe techboard ML to pool.ntp.org vendor list
<cjwatson> Keybuk is having problems reconnecting; Freenode wants SASL, perhaps because he's connecting over 3G
<pitti> I can do that
<pitti> and talk to elmo about an update of the quality assessment (check whether he has any info)
<cjwatson> thanks, that sounds helpful
<pitti> once we have both, adding these seems reasonable to me
<pitti> wrt. the security issues, spoofing DNS will hit ntp.u.c. just like any other host name, so I don't see that as a big concern
<pitti> kees: ^ or am I missing something?
<kees> yeah, DNS is DNS.
<kees> unless there is a functional DNSSEC chain
<pitti> xavier_robin: anything else we should discuss here?
<xavier_robin> I don't think so
<xavier_robin> I'll contact the NTP pool about this discussion
<pitti> xavier_robin: ok, thanks for joining!
<pitti> [TOPIC] SRU microrelease exception for seamonkey
<MootBot> New Topic:  SRU microrelease exception for seamonkey
<pitti> This already hit the TB list, and got two +1 from Mark and me
<kees> +1 from me too
<pitti> cjwatson: do you need a heads-up, or can you vote right away?
<cjwatson> one minute?
<cjwatson> oh, right, that
<cjwatson> I can vote right away
<pitti> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/technical-board/2011-January/000664.html
<pitti> ... in the meantime: kees, can you chair the next time?
<cjwatson> oh, sorry, I was expecting a mootbot vote thingy :)
<cjwatson> +1
<pitti> ah, deadlock, sorry (we already half-voted on the ML)
<kees> pitti: sure, though it's Keybuk's turn?
<cjwatson> Keybuk has given up trying to reconnect
<pitti> kees: I can put him down, and you can be the fallback?
<kees> sounds good
<pitti> "put him into the minutes as chair", I mean
<pitti> [TOPIC] AOB
<MootBot> New Topic:  AOB
<pitti> ?
<pitti> going once..
<pitti> going twice..
<pitti> Sold!
<pitti> thanks everyone
<pitti> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 09:35.
<Daviey> o/
<smb> \o
<dantalizing> \o/
<zul> hi
<Daviey> hai
<SpamapS> o/
<Daviey> hurray!
<hallyn> yo
<SpamapS> always tight getting the wife and kids out the door in time ;)
<Daviey> heh
<SpamapS> a moment please...
<RoAkSoAx> \o/
<SpamapS> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 10:02. The chair is SpamapS.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<SpamapS> [TOPIC] Review ACTION points from previous meeting
<MootBot> New Topic:  Review ACTION points from previous meeting
<SpamapS> ALL: please check the SRU tracker for 'needs-verification' bugs
<SpamapS> How does everyone feel about the needs-verification bugs?
<SpamapS> I see that most are getting turned around quickly
 * SpamapS taps the mic
<SpamapS> this thing on?
<hallyn> stupid question:  process-wise, how does someone mark something verified?  just a comment?  a tag?
<Daviey> change the tag
<hallyn> ie do we need to do something to kick the nxt step in sru process?
<hallyn> ok
<SpamapS> A comment, the SRU team will accept it by tagging verification-done
<Daviey> a comment also helps :)
<hallyn> kthx
<RoAkSoAx> but isn't it that done but someone in QA?
<Daviey> no, RoAkSoAx - that was dropped
<zul> it was?
<SpamapS> We don't have any QA resources allocated for verifying server SRU's
<SpamapS> The requirement is that its done by somebody other than the developer or the SRU team member
<Daviey> It used to be the case that QA had to verify it... that was inefficent
<Daviey> Although, there have been occassions i have -done, my own fixes - which really, really sucks.
<RoAkSoAx> I see.
<SpamapS> yeah, it undermines the whole point of verification
<SpamapS> so anyway, we can certainly verify eachothers' bugs..
<SpamapS> tho its even better if the reporter can do it, or somebody who is affected
<SpamapS> anyway, the current process doesn't seem to tax people or be too inefficient, so I think we'll just keep it up. I think we can drop this action item.
<Daviey> +1
<SpamapS> actually, we should do one thing.. add it here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/GettingInvolved
<SpamapS> I'll take that action on myself
<Daviey> +1 :)
<SpamapS> [ACTION] SpamapS - add SRU verification to ServerTeam GettingInvolved page.
<MootBot> ACTION received:  SpamapS - add SRU verification to ServerTeam GettingInvolved page.
<SpamapS> [TOPIC] Natty Development
<MootBot> New Topic:  Natty Development
<SpamapS> Anybody have anything big to report?
<SpamapS> Seems like our alpha2 chart looks a little behind
<SpamapS> is it time to start postponing things?
<zul> alot of the stuff already has been postponed
<zul> or if you have some little things that can be knocked off do them ;)
<SpamapS> right, thats the dip on Jan 13 .. we're still *way* over scope from where we started, at 60 or so work items
<smoser> i am making progress.
<smoser> i promise
 * SpamapS cracks the whip
<SpamapS> smoser: back to work!
<JamesPage> I've got a few non-Hudson bits and pieces I intend to complete this week
<smoser> i'll get a cloud-init in tonight or tomorrow that will move all IN_PROGRESS on https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/cloud-server-n-cloud-init
<Daviey> RoAkSoAx, How is the cluster stack spec looking?
<SpamapS> \O/
<RoAkSoAx> Daviey: well so far I just have one more bug, on which I'm waiting for upstream to give the last word
<Daviey> smoser, Don't be afraid to scream for help btw.
<Daviey> RoAkSoAx, Oh great
<SpamapS> Hey did you guys notice the "development over time" bit at the bottom of the burndown page?
<SpamapS> 2011-01-1462 (+10)22 (-37)
<Daviey> SpamapS, packageselection-server-n-upstart-server-enhancement are the remaining A2 critical?
<Daviey> THE remaining, rather.
<SpamapS> Daviey: yeah, it'll be done
<Daviey> win
<SpamapS> I'm not so sure about some of the webscale tech ones .. specifically handlersocket and percona are tricky because they have to build inside the mysql tree
<SpamapS> but I'll postpone those if need be
<JamesPage> but some proposed licensing changes from Oracle in Hudson may hold things up on the Hudson packaging front :-(
<zul> SpamapS: that would be a good idea because its a mess right now
<SpamapS> JamesPage: BLOCKED is good when you're waiting on somebody else. :)
<SpamapS> Anyway, I think we can move on.
<JamesPage> SpamapS: OK
<SpamapS> robbiew: any thoughts btw?
<robbiew> nope...get'em done
 * SpamapS knows robbiew is probably waiting for a highlight to look up from his angry birds
<robbiew> or postpone
<robbiew> heh
<SpamapS> [TOPIC] Weekly Updates & Questions for the QA Team (hggdh)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Weekly Updates & Questions for the QA Team (hggdh)
<robbiew> postponing to alpha-3 is okay...just don't overload it
<SpamapS> hggdh: you're up
<Daviey> hggdh, I might ask at some point if you fancy testing a Euca Maverick SRU. :)
<Daviey> (SRU candidate)
<SpamapS> smb: you ready? We can skip hggdh for now...
<smb> sort of :)
<SpamapS> [TOPIC] Weekly Updates & Questions for the Kernel Team (smb)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Weekly Updates & Questions for the Kernel Team (smb)
<SpamapS> sounds good enough to me, GO
<smb> Ok, so the main achievment is fixing bug 686602
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 686602 in Pluck CMS "Admin Menu doesn't show in RTL" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/686602
<smb> err
<smb> EWRONGNUM
<smb> Anyways should be the not booting natty on ec2 t1.micro
<smb> Apart from that added two other SRU items for Lucid ec2
<SpamapS> so i386 t1.micro's work on Natty now?
<smb> Well... it will... next time a kernel is uploaded
<smb> actually amd64 and i386
<SpamapS> right.. next time the team delivers the bags of candy...
<robbiew> heh
<smoser> nice work on that admin menu, smb
<smb> admin menu?
<SpamapS> yeah what would we do without Pluck CMS
<smoser> so, is there a -13 kernel now ?
<smoser> smb, it was a bad joke. from your bad bug paste.
<smb> smoser, Currently only my test kernels
<smoser> when is -13 due ?
<smoser> and will that be in it?
<smb> smoser, Doh! :)
<smoser> i'm looking forward to natty booting on i386 (which i believe is in -13), and also t1.micro, which i'm not sure if will make -13.
<smb> soon
<smb> but it will have the fix
<smb> Right, there was the one bug about nx protection (i386)
<smb> Not sure this made it into the current upload but we turn off that option in the next kernel
<smoser> oh great. so we're expecting to be able to boot on all instance types. that is huge.
<smb> Upstream seems about to have a real fix for it
<smb> I am following that and will re-test as soon as that is there
<smoser> current (-12) kernels do not boot on i386 on ec2.
<smoser> you rock, mr smb.
<smb> Until then we just turn the config option off for i386 virtual
<smb> I thanks that is all I had
<SpamapS> ok, anybody have more questions?
<SpamapS> I don't see sommer or kim0
<SpamapS> :(
<SpamapS> hggdh: ping?
<SpamapS> Ok, well that brings us to...
<SpamapS> [TOPIC] Open Discussion
<MootBot> New Topic:  Open Discussion
<Daviey> Nothing here
<SpamapS> I was thinking of adding one thing to the meeting standard stuff..
<SpamapS> upcoming events
<SpamapS> Dustin will be at Strata next week
<SpamapS> Several other team members will be at events all over the place..
<SpamapS> would be good to talk about them here
<SpamapS> So, I'll add it to the meeting agenda for next week.
<SpamapS> Anything else?
<SpamapS> I had one actually
<SpamapS> does anybody else notice that natty server boots to a blank screen instead of getty?
<hallyn> bring it on
<hallyn> i haven't.  i HAVE noticed tha i get the same qeustions 3 ties during install
<SpamapS> I haven't tried an ISO more recent than 10 days ago.. but the VMs I've installed from that ISO never boot to getty
<robbiew> SpamapS: what graphics card are you using?
<hallyn> blank screen on a serial console install?
<SpamapS> robbiew: kvm
<robbiew> vms...nevemind
<SpamapS> :)
<JamesPage> SpamapS: well mine did until I tried today but they now seem to be OK
<hallyn> who controls the installer?
<hallyn> i tried one yesterday and it booted fine
<hallyn> console on tty1
<hallyn> but i did get repeated questions about location/kbd
<SpamapS> Ok.. probably got fixed in the recent plymouth stuff
<robbiew> hallyn: cjwatson typically does server installer stuff
<zul> have you tried doing alt-f2?
<hallyn> ok, maybe i'll talk to him about it next week
<hallyn> (i know he's still hip-deep in plymouth :)
<SpamapS> [TOPIC] Announce next meeting date and time
<MootBot> New Topic:  Announce next meeting date and time
<SpamapS> Tuesday, February 1 2011 16:00 UTC
<SpamapS> That is all! Thanks everyone
<SpamapS> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 10:34.
<RoAkSoAx> \o/
<hggdh> Daviey: another SRU?
<Daviey> hggdh, Yeah.. but i might see if OEM would like to do it.
<Daviey> hggdh, It really needs access to something like RightScale to be able to test it.
<hggdh> oh
<hggdh> Daviey: yeah, I agree
<JFo> o/
 * smb plops in
<jjohansen> \o
<bjf> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 11:00. The chair is bjf.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<apw> o/
<bjf> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/Meeting
<bjf> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/ReleaseStatus/Natty
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/Meeting
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/ReleaseStatus/Natty
<bjf> #
<bjf> # NOTE: '..' indicates that you are finished with your input.
<bjf> #
<bjf> [TOPIC] ARM Status (bjf)
<MootBot> New Topic:  ARM Status (bjf)
<bjf> Nothing new
<bjf> ..
<bjf> [TOPIC] Release Metrics (JFo)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Release Metrics (JFo)
<JFo> Release Meeting Bugs (11 bugs, 11 Blueprints)
<JFo> ==== Alpha 2 Milestoned Bugs (22 across all packages (down 7)) ====
<JFo>  * 1 linux kernel bugs (no change)
<JFo>  * 0 linux-ti-omap bugs (no change)
<JFo>  * 0 linux-meta-ti-omap bug (no change)
<JFo> ==== Release Targeted Bugs (211 across all packages (up 67)) ====
<JFo>  * 20 linux kernel bugs (up 8)
<JFo>  * 0 linux-ti-omap bugs (no change)
<JFo>  * 0 linux-meta-ti-omap bug (no change)
<JFo> ==== Milestoned Features ====
<JFo>  * 6 blueprints (Including HWE Blueprints)
<JFo> ==== Maverick Updates Bugs ====
<JFo>  * 56 Linux Bugs (no change)
<JFo> ==== Lucid Updates Bugs
<JFo>  * 95 Linux Bugs (down 2)
<JFo> ==== Bugs with Patches Attached:104 (down 41) ====
<JFo>  * [[https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux/+bugs?field.has_patch=on | Bugs with Patches]]
<JFo>  * [[http://qa.ubuntu.com/reports/ogasawara/csv-stats/bugs-with-patches/linux/ | Breakdown by status]]
<JFo> thanks to apw and smb for patch pilot work done on the bugs with patches
<JFo> so far.
<JFo> ..
<apw> wow we had more effect than i expected
<JFo> yep :)
<bjf> [TOPIC] Blueprints: Natty Bug Handling (JFo)
<bjf> [LINK] https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/hardware-kernel-n-bug-handling
<MootBot> New Topic:  Blueprints: Natty Bug Handling (JFo)
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/hardware-kernel-n-bug-handling
<JFo> * There are a number of items in various stages of flight. I will be following up with those parties I am
<JFo> holding for information on, but I will begin aggressively closing these items.
<JFo> ..
<bjf> [TOPIC] Blueprints: Kernel Configuration Review (apw)
<bjf> [LINK] https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/hardware-kernel-n-config-review
<MootBot> New Topic:  Blueprints: Kernel Configuration Review (apw)
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/hardware-kernel-n-config-review
<apw> PV on HVM support (XEN_PCI_PLATFORMDEV) testing is mow complete. The only other remaining action here currently is to report on the final config at beta time, this is waiting on the final kernel version.
<apw> ..
<bjf> [TOPIC] Blueprints: Enhancements to the firmware test suite (cking)
<bjf> [LINK] https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/hardware-kernel-n-firmware-test-suite-enhancements
<MootBot> New Topic:  Blueprints: Enhancements to the firmware test suite (cking)
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/hardware-kernel-n-firmware-test-suite-enhancements
<cking> Changes to fwts (natty development branch):
<cking>  * add uefidump to dump out annotated uefi vars from /sys/firmware/efi/vars
<cking>  * fix cmosdump hex dump (it was dumping too much data)
<cking>  * klog test: add test to check for "Denied AML access to ports"
<cking>  * add -s4-min-delay, --s4-max-delay, --s4-delay-delta options
<cking> ..
<bjf> [TOPIC] Blueprints: Review of the Stable Maintenance Process (sconklin / bjf)
<bjf> [LINK] https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/hardware-kernel-n-stable-process-review
<MootBot> New Topic:  Blueprints: Review of the Stable Maintenance Process (sconklin / bjf)
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/hardware-kernel-n-stable-process-review
<bjf> Nothing new
<bjf> ..
<bjf> [TOPIC] Status: Cert. Team  (ara)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Status: Cert. Team  (ara)
<ara> hello!
<ara> So, I need to cover a couple of things today. The first one is the SRU testing for Maverick and Lucid.
<ara> Lucid is looking well, we have already covered 62 of the scheduled 75 systems, and we haven't found any regressions on those. Maverick, we have covered 67 systems of the 75 that we have scheduled. Same thing, so far, we haven't found any regressions. I would like to point out that we are now using the SRU test suite that Jeff put together.
<ara> As usual, you can check the progress of our testing at:
<ara> [LINK] http://people.canonical.com/~hwcert/sru-testing/current/
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://people.canonical.com/~hwcert/sru-testing/current/
<ara> We want to finish testing Lucid today, to be able to have CDs from -updates as soon as possible. We will follow up the tracker bugs once we are done.
<ara> The second thing I wanted to cover is those bugs that are blocking certification for some of the systems that should be certified for 11.04. The list of those bugs can be retrieved at:
<ara> [LINK] https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux/+bugs?field.tag=blocks-hwcert
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux/+bugs?field.tag=blocks-hwcert
 * JFo makes a note
<ara> Please, check the list to avoid those bugs be forgotten.
<ara> ..
<apw> JFo, are those on our key bugs list ?
<JFo> yep
<JFo> :)
<apw> ..
<JFo> ..
<tgardner> ara, why is bug #686333 on that list? Isn't that a wishlist item?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 686333 in linux (Ubuntu Natty) "include Realtek RTL8192ce driver in Ubuntu" [Medium,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/686333
<tgardner> did we used to have support?
<ara> tgardner, is a work that HWE did in 10.04 and that should get back to Ubuntu before 11.04
<tgardner> ara, hmm
<apw> ara is that for natty yes ?  CONFIG_RTL8192CE=m ... i suspect we may have it in the next upload
<tgardner> ..
<bjf> [TOPIC] Blueprints: Ubuntu Kernel Delta Review (apw)
<bjf> [LINK] https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/hardware-kernel-n-ubuntu-delta-review
<MootBot> New Topic:  Blueprints: Ubuntu Kernel Delta Review (apw)
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/hardware-kernel-n-ubuntu-delta-review
<apw> All 19 of the 19 personal patch reviews are now done, and all of the outcomes applied. Some work remains on compcache which is now superceeded by zram in staging, but some userspace work is required to switch to it.
<apw> ..
<bjf> should we remove this item from the agenda?
<apw> bjf, erm, i'll confer and get back to you next week
<bjf> ok
<apw> i suspect a couple of them are boring nw
<apw> now
<bjf> [TOPIC] Blueprints: Kernel Version and Flavours (apw)
<bjf> [LINK] https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/hardware-kernel-n-version-and-flavours
<MootBot> New Topic:  Blueprints: Kernel Version and Flavours (apw)
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/hardware-kernel-n-version-and-flavours
<apw> Nothing to report here.
<apw> ..
<bjf> [TOPIC] Status: Ecryptfs (jj)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Status: Ecryptfs (jj)
<jjohansen> moved underlying fs checks to mount time
<jjohansen> fixed uninitialized value bug
<jjohansen> fixed bug where using interposed dentry value before dentry was interposed
<jjohansen> fixed unencoded shortname being containing invalid values (/\000) this would cause problem with older versions of ecryptfs if they tried to list the files in the directory
<jjohansen> experimenting with Graceful fallback, where shortname can be used regardless of longname xattr - this allows
<jjohansen> - graceful fallback if longname xattr is missing
<jjohansen> - older versions of ecryptfs to mount  dirs with longname xattrs, though the longname xattrs may become wrong then
<jjohansen> still need to deal with:
<jjohansen> - collision of shortnames with
<jjohansen>   - other shortnames
<jjohansen>   - plaintext pass through files
<jjohansen> refcounting of shared xattr name, or making xattr name uniq to dir + shortname
<tgardner> jjohansen, are upstream taking your patches?
<jjohansen> tgardner: I am going to post out the latest to ecryptfs mailing list today, and am hoping to push out to LKML later this week
<tgardner> ..
<jjohansen> ..
<bjf> [TOPIC] Status: Natty (apw)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Status: Natty (apw)
<apw> The main distro kernel remains at 2.6.37-12.26 (v2.6.37 final based).  We are about to upload a v2.6.38-rc2 + git based kernel, this seems to be the first mostly stable version.  Much testing will be needed.  Good progress the last couple of weeks on work-items, and we are close to caught up for alpha-2 and well below the line overall.
<apw> ..
<bjf> [TOPIC] Security & bugfix kernels - Maverick/Lucid/Karmic/Hardy/Dapper (sconklin / bjf)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Security & bugfix kernels - Maverick/Lucid/Karmic/Hardy/Dapper (sconklin / bjf)
<bjf> || Package                                    || Upd/Sec              || Proposed             ||  TiP || Verified ||
<bjf> ||                                            ||                      ||                      ||      ||          ||
<bjf> || dapper   linux-source-2.6.15               || 2.6.15-55.90         || 2.6.15-55.91         ||    0 ||        0 ||
<bjf> ||                                            ||                      ||                      ||      ||          ||
<bjf> || hardy    linux                             || 2.6.24-28.81         || 2.6.24-28.84         ||    0 ||        0 ||
<bjf> ||                                            ||                      ||                      ||      ||          ||
<bjf> || karmic   linux-ec2                         || 2.6.31-307.23        || 2.6.31-307.24        ||    0 ||        0 ||
<bjf> || ---      linux                             || 2.6.31-22.70         || 2.6.31-22.71         ||    0 ||        0 ||
<bjf> ||                                            ||                      ||                      ||      ||          ||
<bjf> || lucid    linux-ec2                         || 2.6.32-311.23        || 2.6.32-312.24        ||    5 ||        5 ||
<bjf> || ---      linux-meta-lts-backport-maverick  || 2.6.35.22.34         || 2.6.35.23.35         ||    0 ||        0 ||
<bjf> || ---      linux-lts-backport-maverick       || 2.6.35-22.34~lucid1  || 2.6.35-23.41~lucid1  ||    0 ||        0 ||
<bjf> || ---      linux                             || 2.6.32-27.49         || 2.6.32-28.55         ||    5 ||        5 ||
<bjf> || ---      linux-meta                        || 2.6.32.27.29         || 2.6.32.28.31         ||    0 ||        0 ||
<bjf> || ---      linux-meta-ec2                    || 2.6.32.311.12        || 2.6.32.312.13        ||    0 ||        0 ||
<bjf> ||                                            ||                      ||                      ||      ||          ||
<bjf> || maverick linux-backports-modules-2.6.35    || 2.6.35-24.15         || 2.6.35-25.16         ||    0 ||        0 ||
<bjf> || ---      linux-meta-ti-omap4               ||
<bjf> || maverick linux-backports-modules-2.6.35    || 2.6.35-24.15         || 2.6.35-25.16         ||    0 ||        0 ||
<bjf> || ---      linux-meta-ti-omap4               ||                      || 2.6.35.903.6         ||    0 ||        0 ||
<bjf> || ---      linux-meta                        || 2.6.35.24.28         || 2.6.35.25.32         ||    0 ||        0 ||
<bjf> || ---      linux                             || 2.6.35-24.42         || 2.6.35-25.44         ||   21 ||       21 ||
<bjf> ||                                            ||                      ||                      ||      ||          ||
<bjf> We've entered the testing phase of the current kernel cycle. The next cycle timing may
<bjf> be affected by the Lucid .2 release, but the stable kernel team will proceed as normal
<bjf> and produce kernels for -proposed.
<bjf> We encountered a regression in the Maverick -proposed kernel that affected user with
<bjf> Radeon hardware. The offending patch was identified and reverted, and the new kernel
<bjf> in -proposed has been verified to be fixed. This is the bug for that issue:
<bjf> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux/+bug/703553
<bjf> ..
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 703553 in linux (Ubuntu Maverick) "After upgrade to linux-image-2.6.35-25 Radeon graphics are broken" [High,Fix released]
<bjf> [TOPIC] Incoming Bugs: Regressions (JFo)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Incoming Bugs: Regressions (JFo)
<JFo> Incoming Bugs
<JFo>  93 Natty Bugs (up 36)
<JFo>  1116 Maverick Bugs (down 7)
<JFo>  994 Lucid Bugs (down 51)
<JFo> Current regression stats (broken down by release):
<JFo> ==== regression-update ====
<JFo>   * 30 maverick bugs (up 5)
<JFo>   * 74 lucid bugs (down 1)
<JFo>   * 6 karmic bugs (no change)
<JFo>   * 0 hardy bugs (no change)
<JFo> ==== regression-release ====
<JFo>   * 218 maverick bugs (up 30)
<JFo>   * 203 lucid bugs (up 8)
<JFo>   * 38 karmic bugs (down 1)
<JFo>   * 2 hardy bugs (no change)
<JFo> ==== regression-proposed ====
<JFo>   * 17 maverick bugs (up 4)
<JFo>   * 3 lucid bugs (no change)
<JFo>   * 1 karmic bug (no change)
<JFo> ..
<bjf> [TOPIC] Incoming Bugs: Bug day report (JFo)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Incoming Bugs: Bug day report (JFo)
<JFo> The next bug day will be on Tuesday next week. I have sent out the e-mail for it and I will also be blogging to our team voices page.
<JFo> ..
<bjf> [TOPIC] Triage Status (JFo)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Triage Status (JFo)
<JFo> We have gotten a lot of help from various people in the #ubuntu-bugs channel. I'd like to thank charlie-tca specifically and several others in there whose nicks escape me at the moment for directing questions about kernel bugs to me. There have also been a ton of requests through irc to look at specific bugs. In those cases, and many like them, I am directing folks to the bug triage pages of our wiki. I hope that some of these folks will become r
<JFo> egular triagers, but that remains to be seen. :)
<JFo> .
<JFo> ..
<bjf> [TOPIC] Open Discussion or Questions: Raise your hand to be recognized (o/)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Open Discussion or Questions: Raise your hand to be recognized (o/)
<diwic> o/
<bjf> diwic, go
<diwic> I was just wondering about the status of the "document derivative flavour", it'd be great if it was done soon...
<apw> diwic, its on my list ... just not done yet
<diwic> ...as it serves as a base for creating these kernels,
<diwic> which then needs to be tested thoroughly.
<apw> 'these' kernels ?
<diwic> apw, well, the primary one would be the ubuntu-studio kernels, but I wouldn't be surprised if others would follow.
<apw> diwic, if you are going to be making deriv kernels, then perhaps we can talk and get you going, and you can help doc the process too
<apw> ..
<diwic> apw, I probably won't be the one making the kernel myself
<apw> diwic, well its not a blocker for my work, so its not high on the list right now
<diwic> apw, and so my point is that it is a blocker for other people's work
<diwic> i e ubuntu-studio people
<apw> diwic, ok, lets talk aout it off line to work out priorities
<diwic> ok
<bjf> thanks everyone
<bjf> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 11:21.
<JFo> thanks bjf
<cking> thanks bjf
<ara> thanks bjf
<smb> thanks bjf
 * diwic chimes in with the crowd
<kamal> thanks bjf
<diwic> apw, here and now or somewhere/somewhen?
<apw> diwic, come chat on #u-k or mumble
#ubuntu-meeting 2011-01-26
<bbgoll> hey everybody
<bbgoll> when would be next ubuntu meeting for Asia memebership?
<bazhang> on fridge.ubuntu.com ?
<bazhang>  /calendar
<head_victim> Their wiki said 4th Jan so not sure how frequent they're meant to be
<bbgoll> that is why I am asking!
<bazhang> 2/1/2011
<bazhang> next week from what the calendar says
<bbgoll> what time?
<bazhang> http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar  <--- bbgoll have a look
<bbgoll> ok, lets have a look on cal
<bbgoll> ohh
<bbgoll> tnx
<bazhang> welcome
<dingDong> what meeting I should join for gaining membership?
<head_victim> dingDong: have a read of https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Membership/
<dingDong> yep
<dingDong> I did, I mean, I am in Asia, which meeting in (fridge cal) should I join?
<ogra> the EMEA meeting
<dingDong> ok, thanks
<bbgoll> I did read the ubuntu membership and did the procedure + editting the wiki page for being next meeting candidate!
<bbgoll> is here anything else which I should do? except being present at the meeting?
<highvoltage> that's pretty much the procedure, yes
<highvoltage> it's also a good idea to prepare a short introduction to yourself that you can paste when it's your turn to present yourself
<bbgoll> ok, then ?
<highvoltage> then you'll get membership or not get membership, based on your current contributions and history with the project
<bbgoll> haha, tnx anyway
<ogra> a good quality wikipage helps ;)
<highvoltage> it's also a good idea to have people who have worked with you and your sponsors (if applicable) present during the meeting
<bbgoll> hmmm, good Idea, lets c
<robbiew> o/
<cjwatson> yo
<barry> howdy
<robbiew> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 10:04. The chair is robbiew.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<jhunt> hi
<barry> bug 665740 (c-j sru); bug 688732 (reviewed; python-webkit); bug 685476 (mgltools); bug 706044 (daily-journal for py27); general py27 transition testing; bug 697792 (/etc/fuse.conf perms; natty, mav, lucid); bug 706051 (quickly for dh_python2); ubuntu dev guide for udd; pkgme merge proposal reviews; bug 707416 (investigated, not fixed); bug 630511 (-proposed verification)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 665740 in computer-janitor (Ubuntu Maverick) "Missing dependency on dbus" [High,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/665740
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 688732 in pywebkitgtk (Ubuntu) "package no longer has WebView attribute after transition to python 2.7" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/688732
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 685476 in mgltools-viewerframework (Debian) "mgltools-viewerframework: cannot be bytecompiled with Python 2.7: SyntaxError: cannot assign to __debug__" [Unknown,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/685476
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 706044 in Quickly "XS-Python-Version: >= 2.6 to pick up Python 2.7 in natty" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/706044
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 697792 in fuse (Ubuntu Maverick) "permissions of /etc/fuse.conf are reset on upgrade" [Medium,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/697792
<robbiew> wow...it's almost like barry knew I was going to call on him
<robbiew> [TOPIC] Lightning Round
<MootBot> New Topic:  Lightning Round
<barry> robbiew: repaste? :)
<robbiew> nah
<ev> lets play a game called get ubotu kicked for flooding
<robbiew> ev?
<ev> Nearly done on showing the smartest choice only in usb-creator, working on detecting hostname collisons in ubiquity, walked czajkowski through a parted bug, trying to get to the bottom of a thread issue in the pygi branch of usb-creator, fixed a race condition in the installer testing system, thought I had fixed the netbooks locking but that reappeared today so will need to pick up a usb serial cable after all, moved keyamp decision tree generation into
<ev> (done)
<ev> console-setup, saving some ubiquity build time, started bootcharting ubiquity and d-i component build times, looking for obvious speed ups (in support of faster unit testing).
<robbiew> jhunt: ?
<jhunt> Fixed lp:#706842 (we still need work done on kdm and lighdm though).
<jhunt> Got my new USB serial console setup and then reviewed lp:#70257. Still
<jhunt> investigating why "console=" kernel param being truncated (apw aware).
<jhunt> Worked on lp:#672177 a bit with Clint. Spent half a day taming
<jhunt> pbuilder: I can atlast build Upstart packages with it. Started to review
<jhunt> Scotts Upstart branches for natty.  Basics of Upstart job visualization
<jhunt> are in place (sent details and a few questions to Scott) - no merge
<jhunt> request yet as I haven't written test-code, doc, etc. However, to whet
<jhunt> your appetites, we can now auto-gen graphs like this:
<jhunt> http://people.canonical.com/~jhunt/upstart/viz/upstart-viz-small-25jan2011.png
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://people.canonical.com/~jhunt/upstart/viz/upstart-viz-small-25jan2011.png
<jhunt> EOT
<robbiew> jhunt: \o/...nice graphs
<czajkowski> ev: \o/
<ev> :)
<robbiew> mvo: ?
<mvo> did: vacation and then cross-distro meeting about application installer in Nuernberg (really good meeting); todo: land ratings&reviews in natty
<mvo> (done)
<mvo> (plus a bit of hacking webkit transition and software-center in between)
<mvo> (really done)
<robbiew> doko: ?
<doko> natty test rebuild, prepare a gcc-4.6 test rebuild (lucas probably will do this; at this stage it doesn't make a difference if it's done on Debian or Ubuntu), prepared various security updates, LO updates (THE LAST ONE BEFORE THE NEW MAINTAINER JOINS ... HUA HUA!!)
<robbiew> doko: whoohoo!
<robbiew> lol
<doko> will be away the next two weeks
<doko> done
<robbiew> psurbhi: ?
<psurbhi> * worked on https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/util-linux/+bug/579858
<psurbhi> * worked on creation of btrfs subvolumes and mounting them during installation, for aiding automatic snapshots. Considered that /home is a separate partition, as this made things easy. This week, need to work on creating a subvolume for home, when home is not a separate partition. Testing this takes a little time :(
<psurbhi> (done)
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 579858 in util-linux (Ubuntu Natty) "umount segfault on shutdown when unmounting autofs mountpoint" [High,Triaged]
<robbiew> cjwatson: ?
<cjwatson> done: finished d-i rebase onto git (except for debian-installer package itself, and some pending bzr-git problems); finished sorting out live CD upgrade problems in lucid (#591207); other 10.04.2 bits and bobs; packagekit/qapt fix for mysterious dpkg errors and empty apt term.log files (#680328); GRUB multipath backport to lucid (#687501); making progress on console-setup upgrade breakage (#698263), fixed for new ...
<cjwatson> ... upgrades now but need to clean up the wreckage too
<cjwatson> todo: plymouth framebuffer-switch handling (carried over); whatever comes up for alpha-2
<cjwatson> --
<mvo> thanks cjwatson for the packagekit/qapt fixes!
<robbiew> thnx
<robbiew> [TOPIC] Natty
<MootBot> New Topic:  Natty
<robbiew> Alpha 2 next week
<robbiew> http://people.canonical.com/~pitti/workitems/natty/canonical-foundations-natty-alpha-2.html
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://people.canonical.com/~pitti/workitems/natty/canonical-foundations-natty-alpha-2.html
<cjwatson> also https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ReleaseTeam/Meeting/2011-01-21#Foundations
<cjwatson> that's not updated dynamically, some of them have been fixed
<robbiew> mvo: you going to finish your ToDos in time?
<mvo> oh, I need to cleanup the rnr stuff
<robbiew> or should we look at postponing
<robbiew> ah
<robbiew> cool
<mvo> quite a bit if done but not marked as such
<mvo> sorry for that
 * robbiew ignores mpt and isd workitems
<cjwatson> that's good to hear :)
<mvo> ignore++
<mvo> ;)
<cjwatson> I was beginning to get a bit itchy about the work item count
<cjwatson> http://people.canonical.com/~platform/workitems/natty/canonical-foundations.html shows us below the trend line again, with pretty much a flat line for the last week :-(
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://people.canonical.com/~platform/workitems/natty/canonical-foundations.html shows us below the trend line again, with pretty much a flat line for the last week :-(
<cjwatson> well, on the trend line, I can't quite see
<robbiew> yeah...all in all, we're doing fine
<robbiew> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ReleaseTeam/Meeting/2011-01-21#Foundations does have a good number of bugs though :/
 * robbiew is reminded to finish scrubbing mvo's bug assignment list :D
<mvo> thanks for that btw robbiew, I owe you [ ] beer [ ] tea
<cjwatson> heh, I did a bit of scrubbing on my list, though it still needs work
<cjwatson> below ev now \o/
<robbiew> cjwatson: whoohoo
<robbiew> [TOPIC] AOB/GoodNews?
<MootBot> New Topic:  AOB/GoodNews?
 * robbiew avoided jury duty yesterday!!!!
 * mvo got some new (and delicious) tea today
<cjwatson> I've said I'm standing down from the DMB at the end of my term (next month); one more free hour a fortnight ...
<robbiew> http://webapps.ubuntu.com/employment/canonical_SE%20UP%20RW%2001-01/
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://webapps.ubuntu.com/employment/canonical_SE%20UP%20RW%2001-01/
<robbiew> we're hiring for foundations
<mvo> http://people.canonical.com/~mvo/tmp/sc-meets-debtags.png <- playing with tag suggestions for debtags
<robbiew> :D
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://people.canonical.com/~mvo/tmp/sc-meets-debtags.png <- playing with tag suggestions for debtags
<ScottK> dh_python3 got some good new capability this last week due to working with POX on sip4 in Debian (all in Natty too).
<robbiew> nice!
<barry> ScottK: awesome
<robbiew> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 10:22.
<robbiew> thnx all!
<cjwatson> ScottK: http://packages.qa.debian.org/p/python3-defaults/news/20110119T184733Z.html and http://packages.qa.debian.org/p/python3-defaults/news/20110120T224725Z.html I guess?
<psurbhi> thanks robbie
<doko> fastest meeting this year =)
<ev> thanks
<jhunt> thx
<ScottK> cjwatson: Yes.
<cjwatson> doko: you keep stats? :)
<mvo> thanks
<czajkowski> robbiew: should chair allmeetings
<czajkowski> soo productive
<robbiew> ummm...no
<ScottK> cjwatson: http://packages.qa.debian.org/p/python3-defaults/news/20110106T210912Z.html as well (sip4 took a while).
<czajkowski> robbiew: I only ever tune into yours, I know full well they wont run for a crazy length!
<ScottK> robbiew: Better mess it up next time then.  Three hour meeting.  You'll never have to do it again.
<cjwatson> /usr/lib/python3/dist-packages/> excellent
<robbiew> ScottK: lol
<barry> cjwatson: it's a beautiful sight
 * cjwatson still remembers the hoary kickoff meeting ...
<cjwatson> four hours, I think that way
<cjwatson> *was
<maco> doko: first meeting this year as well?
<czajkowski> cjwatson: can't have been productive
<cjwatson> not by the end
<cjwatson> we've learned a bit since then ...
<doko> maco: no, not that bad ...
 * stgraber waves
<highvoltage> hi
<stgraber> hey everyone !
<stgraber> 20:14 < highvoltage> well, we have some seed changes, kstars has been dropped (in favour of kstars) and there's a bunch of other seed changes too but I don't have them open right  now
<stgraber> 20:15 < highvoltage> I've been talking to LibreCAD upstream a bit off-list
<stgraber> 20:16 < highvoltage> they are eagre to have it in Edubuntu, they're just finalising logos, etc. then I'll review it for universe
<highvoltage> yeah I started talking there because I usually get poked in -meeting for meetings :)
<stgraber> sorry, my bad :)
<highvoltage> we're also shipping grokking-the-gimp and tuxguitar
<mhall119> o/
<highvoltage> and kalgebra is dropped in favour of geogebra
<mhall119> kstarts has been dropped in favor of kstars?
<stgraber> I'm currently busy updating the meta packages, I started doing it this morning but my laptop crashed (apparently I've got a kvm bug that tends to make it kernel panic)
<highvoltage> in favour of stellarium
<mhall119> ok
<highvoltage> I updated the Pencil package so that it says "Pencil" in the menus now instead of "pencil"
<highvoltage> and updated the calibre package so that LRF viewer now uses the calibre icon until it has its own icon
<highvoltage> (so the menus look a bit better now)
<stgraber> ah right, still need to re-upload arkose, to fix the same issue
<highvoltage> we have an "akonadi tray" entry under accessories and a kde data backup tool unders system tools that we need to disable
<highvoltage> then our menus should be good
<stgraber> highvoltage: what's the usual format again ? (I don't have a menu anymore ;))
<highvoltage> stgraber: for the menu entries?
<stgraber> yep
<stgraber> Name field in a .desktop
<highvoltage> in the Ubuntu menus it's just the name of the application without description
<highvoltage> hmm, sometimes it does (like in the graphics menu): http://launchpadlibrarian.net/62372790/pencil.png
<mhall119> .desktop has fields for both name and description
<stgraber> ok, so if I go with "Arkose Desktop Application Sandboxing" it'd kind of respect what we have at the moment ?
<highvoltage> yep
<stgraber> as I don't really have an identifiable icon, just going with the name probably wouldn't be enough
<highvoltage> it would be consistantly inconsistant with our current menus
<mhall119> Ubuntu's naming seems to be "App name plus descriptive" if the app name isn't descriptive on it's own
<stgraber> ok, pushing new package now
<highvoltage> and consistant with ubuntu's usual application menus as mhall119 points out
<mhall119> so "Simple Scan" is just that
<mhall119> while Gimp is "Gimp Image Editor"
<highvoltage> some applications could really do with short descriptions like that.
<highvoltage> calibre would be much nicer as "calibre e-book reader"
<mhall119> yeah, they're supposed to, according to something from Canonical I read a while ago and don't have a link to
<mhall119> probably the ones in main all do
<highvoltage> mhall119: indeed
<mhall119> it might be good to make it an action item to make sure all the ones in ubuntu-edu-* are named accordingly too
<mhall119> since it's such a minor change
<highvoltage> that's pretty much all of them then
<mhall119> though I'm not sure how you'd name gCompris
<mhall119> maybe it doesn't work as well for games
<highvoltage> "gCompris Kindergarden Suite"? not sure but we should be able to come up with something :)
<mhall119> or Tux Math
<highvoltage> I think in Fedora it used to say "GCompris - I have understood"
<mhall119> yeah, that's the translation from French of the pronunciation
<mhall119> but it isn't really a descriptive of the app
<highvoltage> yep
<highvoltage> I think tuxmath, tuxpaint is in the same category as libreoffice
<highvoltage> the libreoffice menu items just say "LibreOffice Draw" and "LibreOffice Impress", etc
<highvoltage> so they seem to be descriptive enough to not need more of a description
<mhall119> hmmm,I have "Open Office Presentation" instead of "Open Office Impress"
<highvoltage> FreeMind would be a lot better as "FreeMind Mindmap Editor" or something like that
<mhall119> yeah
<highvoltage> maybe the libreoffice packages still need the menu patches. it's probably still the same as in debian
<mhall119> could be, yeah
<stgraber> it's actually quite bad that we need to patch the .desktop files for that, it'd probably be better to just have some package shipping all the updated .desktop files
<highvoltage> one thing that I'd like to squeeze (heh) in before the 2nd alpha is try to fix our panel icons so that they fit in better
<stgraber> that way you have one package to centralize all the translations and do the name/description standardization
<highvoltage> stgraber: how would you do that? with some kind of menu profile? diverts? or is there a nice way of doing it already?
<highvoltage> stgraber: I'd also kind of dread having to update so many packages just for menu entries :)
<stgraber> just put all of the translated/patched .desktop files in some directory /usr/share/ubuntu-applications/ for example and change the XDG order to have them match first
<highvoltage> ok
<stgraber> if the binary isn't there, they won't show up, if it's there and there's a custom .desktop it'll apply, otherwise the one from /usr/share/applications will be used
<stgraber> that's what we do for ltsp-localapps and it works quite well
<highvoltage> I'll just poke you for the translations stuff, I'm not sure how that works
<stgraber> remember when I told you we could quite easily ship with custom menu structure and apps name, that's how I'd have done it
<highvoltage> ok
<highvoltage> I blogged about our YouTube channel and we got a whole bunch of new YouTube subscribers (haven't counted them yet though)
<highvoltage> besides that I don't think I have anything else to report on, Alpha 2 is just around the corner so we'll just have to test those images so that they can be released and do the usual alpha 2 announcements, etc
<mhall119> I've got a few Qimo updates
<mhall119> if you're done
<highvoltage> I am
<mhall119> okay, first off I forked xdg-launcher to qimo-launcher
<mhall119> qimo-launcher will remain very basic and just do what I need for Qimo
<mhall119> but functionality wise it's done, it'll display a panel full of launchers from an XDG .menu file
<mhall119> and now I have a custom qimo-launcher.menu file for it
<mhall119> so, apt-get install $game will put $game in the panel automatically
<mhall119> it currently merges anything in the Games or Education category, excluding things like card games
<highvoltage> nice
<mhall119> plus a couple of specific exclusions for Lernid and the cGompris admin
<mhall119> probably the exclusions list will grow over time
<mhall119> but for now I think it's pretty good
<mhall119> I think all of my packages for the Xfce-based session are finished, so I should be able to start on the Gnome-session soon
<highvoltage> nice
<mhall119> but, debmower still isn't building a bootable ISO for me :(
<highvoltage> I'm definitely planning to spend some time on it this Friday
<mhall119> so for now I'm going to have to go back to unsquashing an xubuntu iso, installing my packages, and resquashing
<mhall119> I've copied all the Xubuntu settings I rely on into /etc/xdg/xdg-qimo, so I shouldn't have any dependency on anything Xubuntu anymore
<mhall119> and the Gnome session won't depend on anything Xfce either
<highvoltage> I think last when I talked to you there were some files missing from the syslinux directory on the iso, I'll do it from a clean machine on Friday, I guess my laptop where I last tested it might have some packages installed that it doesn't depend on
<mhall119> I will need a menu editor to allow people to customize the launcher panel though
<highvoltage> ah that's mgariepy's dept :)
<mhall119> highvoltage: yeah, pretty much everthing was missing except casper and syslinux folders
<mhall119> I think i can slightly modify alacarte
<mhall119> it's 99% generic XDG menu editor
<mhall119> but for some reason they hard-coded the Applications and Settings menus into it
<mhall119> rather than making them runtime options
<mgariepy> mhall119, for the menu-editor, i guess edubuntu-menueditor will be ok with a few lines of changes
<mhall119> I'll look into it
<mhall119> thanks
<mhall119> is it python?
<mgariepy> mhall119, yes :)
<mhall119> cool
<mhall119> so, one way or another I'll have that
<mhall119> but it'll be later in the release cycle
<highvoltage> one important thing we should do before alpha 3 is decide whether we're going all-unity now that there'll be unity-2d for this release. and also how that's going to impact stuff like sabayon, nanny, etc. (I guess we can expect some breakage)
<mhall119> yeah, going all Unity is going to probably abort my current plans for a gnome session
<stgraber> I guess we should give the choice at install time as we do at the moment. What we need to choose is what we want on the live cd
<mhall119> so, the sooner that's known, the better for me
<highvoltage> it seems that, at least for natty, the classic gnome desktop should stay the default
<highvoltage> and then for users who don't need all the lockdown stuff can just choose unity
<mhall119> +1
<mhall119> I know that, speaking to the president of System76 at UDS-N, he told me flat out that he wasn't shipping anything with Unity or Gnome Shell
<mhall119> and that if Edubuntu didn't offer the classic Gnome, he'd have to drop it
<mhall119> now, Unity has come a long way since then, so I don't know if he still feels that way
<stgraber> so he won't ship 11.04 ?
<mhall119> that was the impression I got
<mhall119> at least not stock Ubuntu 11.04
<maco> mhall119: i didnt realise they offered *any* options at all for distro
<stgraber> unity in 11.04 actually works quite well, it's almost usable :) (as in, it's at least fast)
<mhall119> maco: I think they ofer the *buntus
<stgraber> so he'll probably reconsider
<stgraber> I wouldn't have shipped 10.10 with unity either :)
<maco> mhall119: well yes, but i thought it was only ubuntu, specifically.
<highvoltage> well, it was understandable with the old unity, perhaps with all the changes and improvements he'll change his mind. they could always just make the classic desktop default if they want to
<mhall119> no, hey's shipping 10.04 with UNR
<mhall119> maco: yeah, it looks that way, but he did mention that he did edubuntu, I'm just not sure how you specified
<maco> mhall119: i asked him about kubuntu before and was told no kubuntu no xubuntu, he doesnt want people to have to make that choice
<mhall119> well we talked about Xubuntu, specifically if Unity or Shell were the only Gnome options
<mhall119> anyway, just a thought
<mhall119> I'm not sure how much considersation Edubuntu should give it
<maco> well i last talked to him before the unity announcement so... obviously hes had reconsiderations to make
<mhall119> I can't remember if we talked before or after
<mhall119> but with 11.04, he'll have reconsiderations to make anyway
<mhall119> I assume zareason has no problem shipping Unity
<highvoltage> system76 does ship edubuntu, at least
<highvoltage> ogra: unity-2d looks a lot like old unity!
<ogra> yep
<ogra> and runs in framebuffer with zero accelleration
<ogra> should be good for ltsp ;)
<stgraber> yep, though regular unity should work quite well too (haven't tested yet). Compiz worked fine before, so unity-3d should work too :)
<ogra> if you have 3d capability
<ogra> -2d runs on anything
<highvoltage> I would think that unity-3d would work better on ltsp than unity-2d, but ok
<ogra> wont be installed in natty though
<ogra> highvoltage, how would unity 3d work on a vesa card ?
<stgraber> ogra: I guess -2d is meant for arm boards with no available 3D drivers ? (like your laptop ? :))
<highvoltage> it wouldn't, but I'd never suggest a thin client to anyone that can only work with vesa
<ogra> stgraber, 2d is meant to become a fallback for 3d at some point i guess ... for natty it will be on the arm images as default
<ogra> highvoltage, well, with 2d even the vesa client flies
<stgraber> I guess that's mostly because of space issue on the CDs ? IIRC -2d is in QT
<highvoltage> ogra: that's nice
<ogra> right
<stgraber> if it's installed, is it automatically working as a fallback ?
<stgraber> (we can easily ship it with Edubuntu as we already have QT on the DVD anyway)
<stgraber> so if the user chooses to use unity, he'll get it either in 2D or 3D
<highvoltage> iirc the plan is to have Qt on Ubuntu discs as well for 11.04
<alkisg> Hi all
<highvoltage> alkisg: hey. an hour late again :)
<alkisg> Hehe
<stgraber> highvoltage: was that for 11.04 or 11.10 ? I thought it was longer term plan. QT isn't exactly light to ship and CD space is usually a big issue.
<highvoltage> stgraber: perhaps
<mhall119> especially with them doubling-down on Mono by making Banshee default
<highvoltage> Edubuntu has always shipped with Qt :)
<maco> because only one desktop has an education projection
<highvoltage> heh, indeed
<stgraber> yep, but it's been a long time since we really had to care about CD space :)
<highvoltage> well there's some gnome stuff getting better now, gperiodic is quite nice
<highvoltage> but gnome doesn't have a nice umbrella for edu stuff like kde does
<mhall119> it doesn't for office stuff either
<stgraber> I'd just wish for the kdeedu stuff to depend on less KDE stuff, seems to have improved lately but there's probably still room for improvement :)
<highvoltage> yeah, I think those are more ubuntu packaging problems than kde specific problems
<highvoltage> but luckily we have a kubuntu team member listening :p
<highvoltage> anything else before we go back to idle in #edubuntu?
<stgraber> nope
<mhall119> debmower
<mhall119> ;)
<maco> stgraber: mostly whats going on there is that we have some giant monolithic packages for all the kde librarry stuff
<maco> and splitting them into like 15-20 different packages would require a lot of work
<stgraber> maco: yep, splitting stuff like kdelibs into smaller packages could make a big difference
<mhall119> maco: IIRC, wasn't it from dependencies on a debugging library that didn't need to be depended on?
<highvoltage> mhall119: heh, actually, I'll move that closer and look at it tonight instead of Friday then :)
<mhall119> highvoltage: thanks, that'll make the rest of my work go much faster
<maco> mhall119: there was one thing with the kde version of apport, but there's also the splitting out packages thing
<stgraber> mhall119: yes, a ton of packages got pulled in at some time because of some kubuntu debug package. That's solved in natty though IIRC
<mhall119> maco: ok, I'm not at all familiar with the goings on of KDE
<maco> although for example i think highvoltage was saying "but it pulls in akonadi and ___ and ___" and actually it wasnt pulling in those whole things just the libraries that reference them
<highvoltage> yeah it's more dependencies problems. like, we can't install a kde python game without getting stuff like Akonadi tray and Nepomuk backup
<highvoltage> we get menu entries for those too, so it seems more like just libraries
<highvoltage> then again, nothing happens when you click on them, so perhaps those menu entries are in the wrong packages
<maco> oh thatd be intersting...
<maco> libakonadi4 is one of the things python-kde4 pulls in for example, but thats just the lib
<maco> python-kde4 does depend on kdebase-workspace-bin though
<maco> er n....sorry
<maco> kdebase-runtime
<maco> bleh, have a play with apt-cache depends to see what i mean :P
<maco> highvoltage: actually for that matter...could you do a "dpkg -S /path/to/desktop/entry" and see what package it is, then "aptitude why package"?
 * mhall119 is off, gotta run
<maco> no use for me to do it since i intentionally have kde installed
<highvoltage> heh, aparently akonaditra.desktop comes from kdepim-runtime
<stgraber> fun :)
<highvoltage> also something we probably don't want (but is there)
<maco> kdepim-runtime is a Depends of python-kde4
<maco> so is kdebase-runtime
<maco> because python-kde4 is one of those monolithic libraries i mentioned
<highvoltage> personally I don't think that's very elegant
<maco> er, monolithic packages
<highvoltage> (sorry to drop a kde word :p)
<highvoltage> mgariepy just asked me if this meeting is going to end any time soon
<highvoltage> so I guess it's time to do so :)
<stgraber> hehe
<highvoltage> thanks everyone
<maco> hmm i think i see why the deskto is in kdepim-runtime
<barry> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 15:00. The chair is barry.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<barry> hi folks and welcome to this week's ubuntu distributed development meeting
<barry> who's here today?
<james_w> o/
<barry> note that because we did the meeting last week largely in person at the natty rally, we don't yet have minutes up for the meeting on the 12th.  hopefully we won't re-cover too much ground
<barry> [TOPIC] agenda
<MootBot> New Topic:  agenda
<barry> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DistributedDevelopment/20110126
<barry> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DistributedDevelopment/20110126
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DistributedDevelopment/20110126
<poolie> hello
<poolie> the raw transcript is in http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2011/01/12/%23ubuntu-meeting.html#t21:06
<poolie> hi james
<jam>  /wave
<barry> jelmer, thumper, slangasek, ajmitch, james_w ping
<james_w> hi poolie
<poolie> i like the hot bugs list
<ajmitch> hi
<poolie> i will take an action to bring that up to date for the next meeting, on the 10th feb
<poolie> i believe a few more things have been crossed off
<poolie> we had a two-week sprint that was very productive
<barry> yep, thanks
<barry> [ACTION] poolie to update hot bugs list for next meeting
<MootBot> ACTION received:  poolie to update hot bugs list for next meeting
<barry> i guess we'll just get started
<slangasek> augh where did my morning go :/
<barry> [TOPIC] action items
<MootBot> New Topic:  action items
<barry>   * ajmitch to come up with questions/topics for next meeting (re: REVU)
<barry>  
<barry> ajmitch: i forgot, did we decide to keep this on the list?
 * ajmitch hasn't done much beyond the list that came up last time, sorry - that's probably fallen off pastebin by now
<jam> barry: he wasn't there last time, so poolie had it stay
<poolie> let's not just keep this thing dangling
<ajmitch> strike it from the list or discuss?
<poolie> ajmitch, do you have any particular things you think should be getting attention but aren't?
<poolie> let's discuss briefly
<poolie> if any come to mind now, let's do them in the meeting
<poolie> otherwise if you want to nominate things, feel free to poke us any time
<jam> ajmitch: I think the idea is that you can choose whether to bring stuff up or not, but we'd rather not have an on-going item that just never completes
<poolie> right
<jam> I agree that the strength of that list is that it is nice and compact and *actionable*
<ajmitch> jam: right, I'd rather it not stay around
<barry> agreed.  i'll strike it from the list for next week
<ajmitch> I don't really have any actionable items to discuss about REVU at this stage
<barry>   * poolie to send bzr rotation pitch to platform mailing list
<barry>  
<poolie> definitely today!
<barry> \o/
<poolie> ie keep it :)
<barry> will do :)
<jam> It seems it would be interesting to have something revu-like integrated with the Launchpad merge-proposals stuff.
<jam> though they may not be quite similar enoguh
<barry> [TOPIC] bugs of interest
<MootBot> New Topic:  bugs of interest
<barry> this list might be out of date, but let's go thru them quickly
<barry>   * http://pad.lv/674353 - graph packages built through UDD
<barry>  
<poolie> a gap analysis there could be good
<poolie> this was, specifically, that we'd insert markers to catch anything done by bzr builder or builddeb
<poolie> we agreed to strike that particular implementation
<poolie> it's nontrivial work and it's not actually helping
<poolie> ubuntu developers
<jam> poolie: so should the bug be closed as WontFix ?
<jam> or is that bug #676766
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 676766 in Ubuntu Distributed Development "insert package header field" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/676766
<poolie> instead, we'll measure things we're already doing that ought to correlate with user happiness/uptake
<poolie> jam: with a note
<poolie> next bug?
<barry>   * http://pad.lv/556132 - don't drop SSH connection after sending 1GB; requested by kiko
<barry> ]
<jam> done, I believe
<poolie> fixed and deployed!
<barry> you guys rock!
<barry>   * http://pad.lv/375013 - support committing direct to stacked branches
<barry>  
<jam> done
<poolie> thanks to exarkun and mwh too
<poolie> you rock, jam!
<barry>   * bzr branches are too expensive to use for casual sponsoring, compared with downloading packages from my local mirror (slangasek)
<barry>  
<slangasek> still on my rainy day hacking list
<jam> lots of discussion at UDS, but I don't think we had strong concrete answers
<persia> What class of solution is considered for that problem?
<jam> I think it got put on the poker table (create a branch from a mirror tarball)
<slangasek> you'd think Portland would give me rainy days to go around, but no
<jam> and also shallow checkouts
<slangasek> persia: I'm planning to implement support for automating mirroring of branches
<persia> Ah, OK.  Thanks for the detail.
<barry> i think we should keep this on the list, since it's a core improvement that the team is working on
<slangasek> this is important to me even if other solutions (e.g., shallow branches) speed up the download from LP itself
<jam> note that spiv and I were working on getting a fast shallow checkout from LP
<poolie> it is
<poolie> some of the specific things we discussed are in https://wiki.canonical.com/Bazaar/Plan/2011/Tasks
<jam> so it should be equiv to downloading a tarball from LP, which isn't as good as a local mirror
<poolie> including that
<poolie> (canonical-only, sorry)
<jam> but better than full history
<jam> I think it got slightly back-burnered vs other bzr work
<barry>   * [[https://launchpad.net/bugs/295274|(watch file support)]] - james_w and barry to sprint on that at uds-n
<barry>  
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 295274 in Ubuntu Distributed Development "merge-upstream shouldn't require --version when debian/watch is present" [High,In progress]
<jam> I don't think they got to it
<jam> definitely talked about it
<barry> note that i unassigned myself from this bug, sadly
<jam> but no code was implemented
<james_w> jelmer has been hacking on that
<james_w> it needs some merge proposals reviewing
<jam> ah, it says "jelmer hacked it together and will be submitting mps"
<persia> Note that sometimes it is desireable to create a new upstream version which isn't the latest upstream version according to the watch file, depending on release status, etc.  Please be sure to allow override, rather than relying purely on the watch file.
<jam> I don't think he has submitted anything
<barry> persia: definitely.  i don't think they plan to remove the explicit options, but just make the common case easy
<james_w> persia, "shouldn't /require/ --version"
<persia> Just checking :)
<jam> persia: I'm pretty sure the idea is that you don't *have* to specify version, but if you do, it will be used
<jam> barry: sounds like 'in progress' but not closed yet
<barry> we'll keep it on the list; it's really nice to see progress on it (since i suck :)
<barry>   * [[https://launchpad.net/bugs/653307|Import fails with missing referenced chk root keys]]
<barry>  
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 653307 in Ubuntu Distributed Development "Import fails with missing referenced chk root keys" [Critical,In progress]
<barry> this one falls under the general class of import failures, which i know is a top priority for the team
<poolie> it is
<poolie> i believe we fixed 50% of the imports last week?
<poolie> i wonder if the graph agrees?
<jam> I'm pretty sure that specific bug is, restart them and they all work
<poolie> ah, ok
<barry> *nice*
<jam> http://package-import.ubuntu.com/status/ says it is back down a lot
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://package-import.ubuntu.com/status/ says it is back down a lot
<poolie> so that needs someone, probably spiv, to agree with james_w that it's ok to delete and restart it?
<poolie> nice
<poolie> that's a log scale of course
<jam> at the moment, it is all pretty manual
<poolie> meaning the software will crash if it ever reaches 0 :-) (jk)
<barry> :)
<slangasek> yes, that was bug #653832, right?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 653832 in Ubuntu Distributed Development "Import fails with "trying to import version ... again"" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/653832
<jam> slangasek: nope, a different one
<jam> bug 653307
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 653307 in Ubuntu Distributed Development "Import fails with missing referenced chk root keys" [Critical,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/653307
<barry> (that one was coming up)
<poolie> ok it looks like bug 655307 is not blocked on james
<slangasek> jam: I thought 32 was the one that fixed 50% of the imports :)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 655307 in QBzr "using odt2txt to diff OOo documents" [Wishlist,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/655307
<jam> ah, slangasek, yes that was the one I fixed
<poolie> we just need to do it
<jam> which was 700 or so failures
<barry> i know there was a bug about (or we talked about) making sure that bzr branch of a package that had import failures at least warned the user
<poolie> yes, we did talk about it
<poolie> i think we should file a bug
<barry> poolie: i'll take that action item
<poolie> i'll do that now
<barry> oh, okay, i'll let you do it :)
<poolie> unless anyone knows of an existing bug
<jam> [ACTION] poolie to file bug about MOTD information for out-of-date packages
 * barry looks
<jam> aparrently mootbot only likes barry
<poolie> ah bug 609187 exists
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 609187 in Ubuntu Distributed Development "bzr branch lp:ubuntu/foo should warn when foo is out of date" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/609187
<barry> which is funny, 'cause i hate mootbot
<barry> [ACTION] poolie to file bug about MOTD information for out-of-date packages
<MootBot> ACTION received:  poolie to file bug about MOTD information for out-of-date packages
<slangasek> whoever starts the meeting is stuck with it for the duration :)
<barry> poolie: i'll put that one on the hot list
<barry>   * [[https://bugs.launchpad.net/bzr/+bug/603395|bzr commit in a heavyweight checkout does not propagate new tags]]
<barry>  
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 603395 in Bazaar "bzr commit in a heavyweight checkout does not propagate new tags" [High,In progress]
<poolie> thanks barry
<poolie> fixed, or almost fixed?
<poolie> bug 603395
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 603395 in Bazaar "bzr commit in a heavyweight checkout does not propagate new tags" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/603395
<jam> I think it is fixed thanks to spiv
<barry> the bug is still in progress but the branch was merged apparently
<jam> ah but isn't landed yet
<jam> right
<jam> action item me to review it
<barry> [ACTION] jam to review spiv's branch for bug 603395
<MootBot> ACTION received:  jam to review spiv's branch for bug 603395
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 603395 in Bazaar "bzr commit in a heavyweight checkout does not propagate new tags" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/603395
<barry>   * [[https://launchpad.net/bugs/653832|Import fails with "trying to import version ... again"]]
<barry>  
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 653832 in Ubuntu Distributed Development "Import fails with "trying to import version ... again"" [High,Fix released]
<jam> fixed
<barry> rock
<barry>   * [[https://launchpad.net/bugs/499684|Interface to dpkg-buildpackage inconsistent and not well documented]]
<barry>  
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 499684 in bzr-builddeb "Interface to dpkg-buildpackage inconsistent and not well documented" [High,Triaged]
<barry> a.k.a. the ScottK special
<poolie> spiv is away this week
<jam> poolie: well I'm PP this week anyway, so take it over, etc as necessary
<barry> we'll just keep this one on the list and revisit next week
<barry>   * http://pad.lv/608450 and others - ways to update debian/control and versions from a recipe
<barry>  
<poolie> jam, thanks
<poolie> nothing on that one
<barry> k
<barry> that's it for known hot bugs.  i'd like to get the debcommit/bzr commit item on the radar.  it's not critical, but i do view it as a wart.  what do y'all think?
<jam> poolie just marked 608450 as invalid, do we take it of the list then?
<jam> barry: I don't fully understand what you need from it, but getting it specified and making sure we have the hooks, etc is certainly worthy
<jam> Some other possible hot-items
<jam> pristine-tar is the next most common import failure
<jam> and I have rt #43560 to have the new version backported
<jam> which is in-progress, lamont said he's got the backport but needs to test it before deploying
<jam> I don't think there is a bug on it. but after deploy the packages will need to be requeued
<poolie> i don't have a strong opinion on fixing it
<barry> jam: i would like to recommend folks always use bzr commit, though debcommit does have some nice properties.  lifeless (iirc, my email is unavail atm) suggested hooks to allow bzr commit to do the things debcommit does, which would be nice
<poolie> i just made bug 608450 wontfix because that's more accurate than invalid
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 608450 in Launchpad itself "Can't use 'run' in recipe" [Undecided,Won't fix] https://launchpad.net/bugs/608450
<barry> not that i don't like debcommit, but it would be better imo, to stick with bzr once you're accustomed to using it
<poolie> barry, i think that was a good idea
<jam> poolie: right, but invalid/wontfiix sounds like it will kick it out of the hot-bugs to work on
<poolie> right, at the moment it won't be fixed
<poolie> should we reopen it?
<jam> poolie: *I* have no need to reopen it :)
<jam> barry: right, I did follow the discussions, and I think having it integrated well would be nice
<poolie> iow you have to persuade lp devs, not specifically me
<jam> I don't fully know what debcommit does, though, to say what it takes
<persia> barry, I've previously needed to modify debian/changelog in a bzr maintained package where the bzr commit message should *not* match detected new entries from debian/changelog.
<barry> [ACTION] barry to file bug on debcommit/bzr commit
<MootBot> ACTION received:  barry to file bug on debcommit/bzr commit
<jam> persia: would -m be sufficient for you?
<jam> or do you want to get a template that you can edit?
<poolie> i mentioned a bug in that thread to add hooks to enable it
<barry> persia: i'll subscribe you to the bug i'll file :)
<poolie> perhaps we should have a separate bug saying "and this hook should be used to ..."
<persia> jam, -m is probably enough, but that may end up being comfusing when compared to debcommit -m
<jam> I think there are other rough points where when giving a template if you *don't* modify it, then we assume you don't want to commit (or at least prompt you) which people didn't like
<barry> any other comments about hot bugs before we move on?
<jam> barry: I don't know the specific workflow, but is a bzr commit *always* matching the changelog? Or would you do a couple intermediate cleanups before the branch is final?
<poolie> any more nominations of things people really want fixed?
<jam> barry: action item to follow up on pristine-tar stuff
<barry> jam: i personally do many commits, then a dch -i as almost the last thing, then one last bzr commit.  it's that last that debcommit is currently better at because it also --fixes to link the branch to the bug as well as using d/changelog entry
<barry> jam: but i also think that if d/changelog doesn't change, then it'll just be a 'normal' commit
<jam> barry: right, so how does that interact with 'bzr commit' automagic? Just that it only kicks in if there is a *new* changelog entry
<jam> ?
<jam> right
<barry> [ACTION] jam to follow up on pristine-tar stuff :)
<MootBot> ACTION received:  jam to follow up on pristine-tar stuff :)
<barry> jam: yes, i think so.  would also be nice to warn if LP: #12345 wasn't included or mis-formatted
<barry> jam: there's a question about what to do if you change a changelog entry (i.e. don't add a new one but edit an existing one).  for now, i'd say whatever is easiest is fine (it's a bit of an uncommon - for me - occurrence)
<persia> editing changelog is the special case I mentioned above.
<barry> anyway, we can carry that on in the bug comments or in the ml
<jam> barry: right
<persia> Another common case where I use debcommit is with -R magic, which would be nice to integrate if trying to emulate the tool.
<james_w> <1235076782.10502.134.camel@flash> is interesting Re: debcommit
 * barry 's email is offline atm :(
<barry> cool.  if there are no other hot bug nominations, let's move on to aob
<poolie> k
<barry> [TOPIC] aob
<MootBot> New Topic:  aob
<poolie> i have a couple
<barry> the floor is poolie's
<poolie> * bug queue management
<poolie> we agreed to make a small process change last week,
<james_w> as is <1236587080.23732.44.camel@flash>
<jam>  sidebar: what is AOB?
<poolie> which is that the shortlist of bugs for my team will now be <https://bugs.launchpad.net/~canonical-bazaar/+assignedbugs>
<poolie> (any other business?)
<poolie> as opposed to previously opening a task against udd
<poolie> this is just fyi
<poolie> if any of you feel a bug is important to udd, please make that clear in comment text or set the importance as you see fit
<poolie> we can always change it or discuss it later
<poolie> also, i will try to set up an instance of jkakar's kanban software to give a view of this
<poolie> questions/comments?
<jam> poolie: how do we handle it when someone on the team starts it
<barry> poolie: just to clarify: we still have (i think) some uncertainty whether to file bugs against udd or bzr-builddeb.  do you have some clear guidelines for folks on that?
<jam> do we reassign it? or just mark it in-progress?
<poolie> reassign to that person
<poolie> and inprogress
<poolie> i'm hoping that lp:kanban will give us an aggregated view, or can be tweaked to do so
<poolie> barry, i think the rule now would be, file against whatever code base needs the fix
<poolie> if in doubt, udd
<barry> poolie: thanks
<jam> barry: right, and then when it is something that the canonical team is going to focus on, it gets assigned to that team
<jam> but we monitor udd/bzr/bzr-builddeb etc
<jam> at least, I know *I* get emails for bugs in both
<barry> :)
<jam> if I happen to ignore them...
<poolie> next item?
<poolie> * bzr team theme
<poolie> we're going to make it possible to stop doing source package uploads by uds
<poolie> the main things under this seem to be,
<poolie> 1- reliable package imports, so people have a place to start from
<poolie> 2- build from branch into the main archive
<poolie> this doesn't mean we'll turn off dput uploads, but we want to make it possible for people to do that if they want
<slangasek> are you targeting the current devel distro only?
<poolie> and i hope that around that time frame, some people will be finding it worthwhile to stop doing source package uploads
<poolie> yes
<slangasek> ok
<slangasek> just checking; I'm still keen to see -proposed queues turned into merge requests :-)
<barry> very cool
<poolie> for past releases, i think lp should always keep supporting the toolchain used when they were originally released
<poolie> i think this is a good goal because it will help us distinguish the 'must be done' features
<barry> poolie: do you foresee requiring udd-only for 12.04 and onward?
<poolie> and, remove some complexity or inconsistency from supporting multiple mechanisms
<poolie> barry, well, it's not for me to set that kind of requirement
<jam> barry: it is under discussion
<poolie> we'll do our best to get things to a state where the TB can decide that they will do udd-only
<jam> but as poolie says, that is something outside the bzr group to control
 * barry nods
<jam> I think it also affects stuff like the linaro build process
<poolie> there's a middle step where lp could get an acl on source packages in particular releases to say they should only come from branches
<poolie> to let them be used as canaries for the process
<barry> that's a good idea
<slangasek> poolie: well, bear in mind that ~4 months after UDS we enter archive freeze, and then LP should /not/ automatically build from branch...
<slangasek> or at least, not from any branch ubuntu-dev can commit to directly
<poolie> slangasek, right, only, what ~archive-admins can approve things?
<james_w> I'm not sure it will even be automatic
<poolie> there is a question here about whether committing should automatically build
<poolie> or whether there is a separate 'do it' step
<slangasek> poolie: in practice archive admins push the button, though this is a (minor) LP bug
<slangasek> it should be the release team
<jam> slangasek: so how is the dput uploads processed. Just restricted to specific users after a given point?
<lifeless> slangasek: so the build from branch implementation will initially be a front-end to the uploader
<slangasek> and for previous releases, the SRU team
<barry> it might be nice to do the build as an intermediate step, but have different criteria for upload-to-archive
<slangasek> jam: dumped into an 'unapproved' queue within soyu^W launchpad
<lifeless> slangasek: so all the normal policy knobs, freezing etc will operate unaltered.
<slangasek> lifeless: fair enough
<poolie> interesting idea
<poolie> ah, what else
<poolie> we will probably still publish source packages
<lifeless> we can iterate for deeper glue etc once regular uploads *cannot happen* - e.g. in 7 years
<lifeless> :P
<poolie> right
<poolie> https://dev.launchpad.net/LEP/BuildFromBranchIntoMain
<poolie> an update of a very old spec
<poolie> but now in reach!
<persia> Given 7 years, it oughtn't be that hard to implement a `dput` that does the bzr stuff.
<poolie> so, this is what we're planning to do
<barry> point of order: we're coming up on an hour, so we should wrap up.  anything else we need to discuss here today?
<barry> if not, then...
<barry> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 15:58.
<jam> end p o o ?
<poolie> i think that's it
<barry> jam: :)
<poolie> i'll send mail about that plan
<barry> thanks everybody!  i'll just note that about 4" of snow has fallen since this meeting started :)
<jam> barry: wow
<poolie> great
<poolie> thankyou, all
<maco> barry: and hail/sleet!
 * maco just rode home in it
<barry> maco: time to hunker down!
<slangasek> thanks :)
<jam> barry: so how were the wiki pages made from the IRC notes?
<jam> were / are
<barry> jam: very low tech: i copy them from my erc buffer, and paste them into my browser
<jam> barry: so what *is* the point of mootbot?
<barry> jam: exactly
<barry> jam: i got out of the habit of using the logs back in my lp days because it almost never worked
<barry> now i use erc and bip and have my own logs
#ubuntu-meeting 2011-01-27
<ogra> moo
<NCommander> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 09:01. The chair is NCommander.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
 * rsalveti waves
 * NCommander waves
<NCommander> who's here this morning?
<janimo_> hello
 * GrueMaster is not.
<NCommander> GrueMaster: I know the feeling
<NCommander> [link] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileTeam/Meeting/2010/20110127
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileTeam/Meeting/2010/20110127
<NCommander> [topic] Action Items from last meeting
<MootBot> New Topic:  Action Items from last meeting
<NCommander> [topic] NCommander to talk to the release team on which team to track w.r.t. to bugs (co)
<MootBot> New Topic:  NCommander to talk to the release team on which team to track w.r.t. to bugs (co)
<NCommander> c/o
<NCommander> [topic] Standing Items
<MootBot> New Topic:  Standing Items
<NCommander> [link] http://people.canonical.com/~platform/workitems/natty/ubuntu-armel.html
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://people.canonical.com/~platform/workitems/natty/ubuntu-armel.html
<NCommander> [link] http://people.canonical.com/~platform/workitems/natty/ubuntu-armel-natty-alpha-2.html
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://people.canonical.com/~platform/workitems/natty/ubuntu-armel-natty-alpha-2.html
<NCommander> Burndown charts are looking better and are close to the trendline
 * davidm is finally back hom
<NCommander> morning davidm
 * NCommander pokes everyone else
<NCommander> no other comments on burndown charts?
<ogra> Wi look okayish
<ogra> i just closed my last one
<NCommander> ogra: yay :-)
<ogra> NCommander, you are actively working on yours i guess :)
<NCommander> ogra: I hit a wall (more on that later)
<NCommander> anyone else for comments?
<ogra> did you talk to doko/linaro ?
<ogra> rsalveti, are you likely to do all these package tests before A" ?
<ogra> *A2
<rsalveti> ogra: for qt, probably not, but I'm moving to the others now
<rsalveti> lot easier
<NCommander> ogra: not yet. I was waiting on confirmation on a maverick Qt 4.7.1 before I raise the 'its a compielr issue' alarm, but that built ICEd sometime in the middle of the night
<ogra> and what about RAOFs items ?
<rsalveti> for qt I need to rebuild all the packages that uses the gles backend
<rsalveti> to see if it's going to break or not
<rsalveti> and are all huge (kde ones)
<rsalveti> so takes time
<rsalveti> ogra: just moved to alpha 3
<rsalveti> not important for now
<ogra> great
<ogra> GrueMaster, what about your checkbox tests ?
<ogra> move or finish this week ?
<GrueMaster> Will bump today.
<ogra> wohoo
<ogra> seems we look really good for A2 then
 * NCommander reset his to INPROGRESS
<NCommander> I keep forgetting we have that state
<ogra> janimo_, if you need help with debian-cd NCommander and i have access to the builer machine
<GrueMaster> ogra: Bumped to A3.
<NCommander> fixed
<ogra> though i must admit i'm not fully in the code since the crontab cleanup
<ogra> validity checking for flavours changed
<janimo_> ogra, thanks, I will probably ask for help in various forms
<ogra> k
<janimo_> but I need to figure out how to properly test locally
<ogra> NCommander is probably deeper in the current code, but he will be busy with the QT issue
<ogra> NCommander, move ?
<NCommander> k
<NCommander> [topic] http://qa.ubuntu.com/reports/team-assigned/canonical-arm-assigned-bug-tasks.html
<MootBot> New Topic:  http://qa.ubuntu.com/reports/team-assigned/canonical-arm-assigned-bug-tasks.html
<rsalveti> I have 2 that are already fixed released
 * NCommander needs to fix that link
<GrueMaster> I'll be working on a new list tomorrow F2F with bmurry.
<ogra> NCommander, only if we have a new list
<NCommander> likewise-open is an annoying one that reopened
<NCommander> Wish it would stay closed for a cycle
<ogra> (which is what GrueMaster refers to i think)
<NCommander> will track that after Qt is fixed
<ogra> NCommander, unassign :)
<ogra> its desktop or server team
<ogra> you shouldnt be assigned to it
<rsalveti> ogra: any news about the qt package update?
<rsalveti> to check the neon bug
<NCommander> ogra: I've always been assigned to this one since its a porting bug
<ogra> rsalveti, Riddell just told me it should be there any minute (two days ago)
<Riddell> upstream are promising it soon but won't say any more
<ogra> so i guess someone is working on it atm
<rsalveti> hm, ok
<ogra> NCommander, right, and you provided a patch, thats enough, package maintenance is supposed to be done by either desktop or server
<NCommander> k
<ogra> NCommander, find out which of the teams has the package and assign to the team
<NCommander> will reassign
<NCommander> server
<NCommander> that I do know
<ogra> i think its desktop
<ogra> by say of mdz
<ogra> (i remember a discussion when he lead the server team)
<ogra> but ask pitti or robbiew
<rsalveti> ogra: I think you still have the old alsa-utils bug
<NCommander> k
<rsalveti> but it's fix released
<rsalveti> and it shouldn't
<ogra> i do :(
<ogra> its fix released for the kernel part
<ogra> we should probably just open a new one for alsa-utils
<rsalveti> ogra: hm, so we should open it or repen for the package
<ogra> since that old bug got a lot of confusion in it
<rsalveti> at least we're able to track it then
<ogra> right
<ogra> re-open then
<rsalveti> janimo_: any news on the banshee bug?
 * ogra saw some testing of the new upstream
<ogra> that didnt look good
<rsalveti> yeah, I remember something similar
<NCommander> The underlying root cause is our mono stack is still foobar'ed. Someone needs to sitdown, and run the test suite failures
<rsalveti> NCommander: you said you could do that in the past :P
<rsalveti> as you seems to like fixing mono issues
<NCommander> rsalveti: it keeps getting pre-empted by other things.
<NCommander> also, like is the wrong word :-P
<ogra> unity-2d vs QT is more important atm
<rsalveti> sure
<robbiew> ogra: FYI, while I believe desktop is the new owner of likewise-open...zul has resolved the issue and is uploading now
<ogra> yeah, like is the wrong word
<ogra> should have been LOVE :)
<rsalveti> :-)
<rsalveti> move?
<ogra> NCommander, see, one item less on your plate ^^^
<NCommander> ogra: don't make me hit you
<janimo_> rsalveti, it happensa with 1.9.2 too
<NCommander> robbiew: thanks for the confirmation
<janimo_> I am almost sure it is a mono bug not banshee
<rsalveti> weee :-)
<janimo_> as the backtraces have  wildly different contents sometimes
<janimo_> within CIL, SIGILLS, etc
<rsalveti> must be fun to debug mono
<ogra> thats just to entertain the debugger ;)
<NCommander> janimo_: if you want to take a stab at it, and don't value your sanity, get me off meeting and we'll step through as far as I got
<ogra> they add random messages ;)
<janimo_> rsalveti, indeed, I do not yet know how to debug mono C#/C combination with gdb
<janimo_> but I guess it's something I'll find out :)
<ogra> i guess a talk with NCommander would help
<NCommander> janimo_: I'm pretty sure the issue itself is in the C code with the trampoleans, etc.
<ogra> he made some progress in the past
<janimo_> NCommander, ok
<rsalveti> yup
<NCommander> [topic] Unity 2D Status
<MootBot> New Topic:  Unity 2D Status
<ogra> looks goood
<NCommander> Broken on ARM :-/
<ogra> MIRs filed
<NCommander> ogra: thanks for handling that
<NCommander> I'm running down the natty regresison
<ogra> broken on arm, but not unity-2d's fault
<NCommander> ogra: indeed, but its a bit of a wall banger
<ogra> i hope it doesnt block the MIrs
<NCommander> I've got a dialog open w/ linaro on it ATM, but probably going to need to run some more test builds of Qt
<GrueMaster> Shouldn't.  It works on x86.
<ogra> and i also hope the new QT might gain us something
<ogra> but that might be a moot hope
<NCommander> especially if it stoolchain
<ogra> GrueMaster, a MIR requires that it builds and runs on all supported arches
<rsalveti> ogra: I was thinking that the lack of proper translation would be worse for blocking mir than the seg fault issue
<ogra> the translation has a milestoned upstream bug
<rsalveti> as it's going to be used as the default ui for arm
<ogra> should be fixed before natty
<ogra> (botzh bugs are mentioned in the MIR)
<rsalveti> yup, saw that
<ogra> there goes your alter ego ;)
<janimo_> NCommander, I can also look into QT debugging. I am just fresh out of a LibO debugging spree, so large C++ codebases failing in weird ways on arm no longer scare me as much as they used to
<ogra> it would be good to have tracked it down before A2
<NCommander> janimo_: you should look at the current dialog in #linaro
 * janimo_ just found the cause of OO/Libo FTBFS
<janimo_> NCommander, ok
<ogra> since i would like to switch the images to unity-2d
<NCommander> janimo_: isn't debugging OOo fun :-)
<NCommander> ogra: I think realistically, we're looking at A3 for that
<ogra> i guess libO makes it easier already
<ogra> NCommander, well, wer should try at least
<ogra> *we
<ogra> we still have a week
<NCommander> ogra: true, but I rather us cross the finish line with a well tested stack then push it into a2 at the very last possible moment
<ogra> NCommander, if there are chances it works i'm fine getting images with untested stack
<janimo_> NCommander, OTOH the sooner we push out thew more testers
<ogra> right
<ogra> thats what i mean
<davidm> I agree with ogra and janimo_
<ogra> but there needs to be at least a chance
<NCommander> */2cents*
<ogra> i wont switch if its clearly broken indeed
<ogra> if its toolchain it would also help to have it identified before the new QT hits the archive
<ogra> to prevent rebuilds
<ogra> anyway, thats all from my side wrt unity-2d
 * NCommander has nothing additional to add
<NCommander> actually
<NCommander> one thing
<NCommander> I just got pointed at Qt's unit tests
<NCommander> Will try and run with them after the meeting to confirm/deny a hosed Qt
<ogra> ++
<NCommander> (or more specifically, if I'm looking at a regression due to changed assembly)
<ogra> the earlier we identify the better
<ogra> move ?
<rsalveti> move
<NCommander> [topic] Kernel Status (cooloney)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Kernel Status (cooloney)
<rsalveti> NCommander: my name
<ogra> and rsalveti :)
<rsalveti> again
<rsalveti> :-)
<NCommander> [topic] Kernel Status (cooloney, rsalveti)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Kernel Status (cooloney, rsalveti)
<NCommander> ahem :-)
<rsalveti> :-)
<rsalveti> for omap 3 we just got an upload for a 38 based kernel
<ogra> do we know where we stand wrt 2.6.38 on omap4 ?
<ogra> and who finally does it
<rsalveti> apw pointed the link to the already built deb, will give it a try on xm now
<davidm> ogra, TI has just started working on it
<rsalveti> ogra: for omap 4 that is still one open question
<ogra> its nearly feb.
<ogra> would be good to have something soon
<davidm> and Linaro has just hired a gent to help
<rsalveti> at least at the rally they said they were building the linaro landing team to work on that
<ogra> ah, good
<rsalveti> or at least to help on that
<rsalveti> so work is probably being made
<ogra> right
<davidm> New Linaro gent is Andy Green
<ogra> as long as we can get binaries before A3 i'm happy
<davidm> Started work this week
<ogra> i hope they dont build linaro packages but usable ubuntu packages
<rsalveti> current ti status for the current kernel tree (35 based) is 4 releases ahead of us
<rsalveti> mostly to make it work on ES2.2
<ogra> (with security and SRU support)
<rsalveti> but sebjan said it's still not stable, so not ready for merge
<rsalveti> ogra: hm, don't know if we'll get it before A3
<ogra> davidm, do you know anything about that ?
<ogra> (SRU and security ... and also ubuntu-kernel compliance)
<rsalveti> current upstream kind of work, but missing display drivers and a lot of other stuff useful for desktop
<ogra> i'm a tad scared that they will only build linaro kernels
<rsalveti> I'm not that sure
<davidm> OMAP 4, I think it will be iffy to have it by A3 but I have some hope
<davidm> We will get an Ubuntu kernel from TI/Linaro
<ogra> good
<rsalveti> yup
<rsalveti> for Maverick, we got a new update for the main kernel
<rsalveti> closing some quite old SRUs
<ogra> finally
<rsalveti> like bug 688765
<rsalveti> and others
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 688765 in linux (Ubuntu Maverick) "Can't init uart3 (no clocks available) at Beagleboard-xM" [High,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/688765
<rsalveti> yeah, sru is taking quite some time
<rsalveti> guess that's most of it
<ogra> well, to keep tobin busy :)
<rsalveti> brian is still working on the mem instability issue
<GrueMaster> hey.
<rsalveti> but no other news
<ogra> move ?
<rsalveti> move
<NCommander> [topic] QA Status (GrueMaster)
<MootBot> New Topic:  QA Status (GrueMaster)
<GrueMaster> Testing daily unity-2d builds on maverick due to the QT natty issue.
<GrueMaster> Testing other apps using the une-efl on natty.
<GrueMaster> Other than that, waiting on replacement XM (shipping).
<ogra> images work fine ?
<ogra> i also think we can start ignoring une-efl bugs
<GrueMaster> After the latest jasper-initramfs fix, so far so good.  Testing today's now to see if the une-efl session was fixed.
<GrueMaster> I'm only using it until unity-2d is usable on natty.
<ogra> right, indeed file bugs as you see them
<ogra> i just mean fixing
<ogra> isnt worth to put team energy into that
<ogra> better focus on getting unity-2d fixed
<GrueMaster> Not much I can do there.  I'm available to run tests though.  :P
<rsalveti> yup
<rsalveti> but that was the only main issue we had
<rsalveti> and until having something with unity-2d, was good to fix
<ogra> une-efl should be handled by community (speak up if you are community and intrested in taking it over :) )
 * ogra hopes he made emmet happy with that ;)
<ogra> move ?
<GrueMaster> Until unity-2d is on the image, some support for une-efl needs to remain.
<rsalveti> move
<NCommander> [topic] ARM Porting/FTBFS status (NCommander)
<MootBot> New Topic:  ARM Porting/FTBFS status (NCommander)
<rsalveti> and janimo_
<NCommander> <- *see previous Unity 2D discussion*
<ogra> you do that alone now ?
<NCommander> ugh
<NCommander> need to update the dman termplate
<NCommander> ahem
<ogra> awesome
<ogra> so janimo_ is free for other stuff
<ogra> :P
<janimo_> :)
<rsalveti> :P
<NCommander> [topic] ARM Porting/FTBFS status (NCommander, janimo)
<MootBot> New Topic:  ARM Porting/FTBFS status (NCommander, janimo)
<ogra> heh
<NCommander> ogra: janimo_ is free, i want janimo :-)
 * NCommander runs
<ogra> i want both of them
<ogra> four hands can work more than two ;)
<ogra> any status ?
<janimo_> some progress on haskell stuff
<ogra> cool
<janimo_> but lately takeon over by others
<ogra> i saw a ton of syncs/uploads
<janimo_> Laney and other haskelly people
<ogra> yep
<janimo_> LibO fixed wil hopefuly be in 3.3.1
<Laney> should be fine
<ogra> Laney, great work
<janimo_> some NEW pending to unlock some other package to be asble to build darcs
<janimo_> and then the unavoidable failures because of swapping on the builders
<ogra> sigh
<janimo_> deferred until something with more than 512M is available
<ogra> isnt that just timeouts ?
<Laney> just ordering and stuff, you can follow on http://orangesquash.org.uk/~laney/haskell-installability/armel.png
<ogra> i thought lamont has a whitelist for that
<janimo_> ogra, yes, but I am not sure what the timeout is supposed to be if we don;t know how much it is swapping
<janimo_> timeout was raised to 300 min from 150
<janimo_> but a few packages are still taking longer
<ogra> well, just double them with every build until you find a working solution
<Laney> thanks for caring about universe stuff btw :-)
<ogra> we need them buolt by release
<ogra> *built
<ogra> and its not clear when we get pandas
<janimo_> ogra, I hope by releae we get at least one bettee build server
<janimo_> even one [anda would help a lot
<ogra> and even then the cluster isnt built yet
<lamont> there's the other issue that when the machine goes through the swapstorm, launchpad sometimes decides that it's gone away and throws in the towel and goes to the next builder so it can timeout in several hours
<ogra> bah
 * lamont is working on those timeouts too
<ogra> well, as soon as we get pandas they will go to davidm (i hope) and not to the DC
<janimo_> ogra, you have an extra panda, you should hook it in the buildds ;)
<ogra> i already sent my spare panda to lamont :P
<janimo_> oh
<ogra> but that was a pre-release and didnt work
<lamont> ah.  grumichama
<ogra> not sure that was ever worked around
<lamont> if we haven't already, we can send that one back if you want it
<ogra> nah
<ogra> probably to davidm
<ogra> i dont want it collecting dust here
<GrueMaster> I think TI wanted the pre-2.0 8L boards back.
<ogra> then david is the best bet to drop it off there
<ogra> anyway, offtopic
<rsalveti> and we're running out of time
<ogra> move
<lamont> janimo_: meanwhile, pester me later today and I'll bump the sbuild timeout before the next round of mass-giveback
<janimo_> lamont, ok
<ogra> NCommander, stop watching #linaro !
<NCommander> [topic] ARM Image Status (ogra, NCommander)
<MootBot> New Topic:  ARM Image Status (ogra, NCommander)
 * janimo_ set up a timer task titled 'pester lamont'
<ogra> they are there ;)
<NCommander> ogra: that was a case of bad lad
<NCommander> *lag
<ogra> x-loader was moved in the scripts to the new packages
<ogra> as soon as i have confirmation they actually ended up on the images we can remove the old packages
<rsalveti> yup, doing that now
<ogra> beyond that we had a mis-build due to archive skew two days ago
<ogra> all other images up to today have built fine
<ogra> move ... unless there are questions
<ogra> NCommander, HURRY UP !!
<ogra> :)
<rsalveti> ..?
<rsalveti> :-)
<ogra> NCommander, 2 MINS
<ogra> hrm
<ogra> my caps key freaks out
<rsalveti> GrueMaster: give him a hard ping
<ogra> with a hammer
<rsalveti> lol
<NCommander> [topic] AOB
<MootBot> New Topic:  AOB
<ogra> nothing here
 * NCommander has nothing
 * NCommander needs to reboot badly
<NCommander> closing meeting in
<NCommander> 1
<ogra> NCommander, close ?
<NCommander> 2
<ogra> ah
<NCommander> 3
<GrueMaster> Actually, try not to reboot badly.  Makes your system slow down.
<NCommander> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 10:00.
<ogra> timing \o/
<charlie-tca> are we all here?
<micahg> o/
<MichealH> o/
 * MichealH is hoping to vote on the xubuntu leader
 * pleia2 waves
<MichealH> Maybe nominate myself?
<knome>  o_
<knome>  |/
<knome> /'\
<micahg> MichealH: there was only one nomination
<vinnl> 0/
<cody-somerville> Hi
<micahg> this is more of a coronation vote :)
<MichealH> Reall?
<charlie-tca> formalize the thing
<MichealH> charlie-tca: Can I nominate myself?
<charlie-tca> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 13:03. The chair is charlie-tca.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<knome> MichealH, not any more.
<mr_pouit> \o
<charlie-tca> The full meeting agenda is available for your viewing at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Meetings
<MichealH> o/
<charlie-tca> [TOPIC] Old business
<MootBot> New Topic:  Old business
<charlie-tca> As far as I recall, there isn't any?
<pleia2> I think you're right
<charlie-tca> [TOPIC] Team updates - Team Leads
<MootBot> New Topic:  Team updates - Team Leads
<charlie-tca> [TOPIC] Packaging & Development
<MootBot> New Topic:  Packaging & Development
<charlie-tca> mr_pouit: floor's yours
<mr_pouit> ok, last week: uploaded Xfce 4.8
<charlie-tca> w00t!
<pleia2> woohoo!
<mr_pouit> this week, the focus has been on xubuntu-default-settings and xubuntu-artwork
<charlie-tca> We like that!
<beardygnome> hi all, have i missed much?
<charlie-tca> just starting
<charlie-tca> \o
<charlie-tca> I have a question, mr_pouit
<mr_pouit> yes?
<charlie-tca> Are we going to try to backport xfce4.8 to maverick and lucid?
<charlie-tca> or at least get a PPA for them?
<mr_pouit> possible, micahg spoke about that a few meetings ago
<charlie-tca> Got a lot of users asking
<mr_pouit> I would rather wait for the first bugfix releases though
 * micahg is willing to help
<charlie-tca> Okay, that's fine then.
<charlie-tca> At least we will have an answer
<charlie-tca> Thank you, mr_pouit. Are there any questions?
<knome> mr_pouit, will xfce 4.8 be backported to dapper?
<mr_pouit> eww, I don't think so :P
<micahg> dapper is EOL in 5 months
<knome> damn! have to update then...
<pleia2> lol
<charlie-tca> Dapper is EOL in June for servers. It is already EOL fro desktops
<micahg> for real this time :P
<charlie-tca> Good question, knome. Thanks for asking that one.
<micahg> charlie-tca: yes, but PPA uploads are still accepted for it :)
<knome> charlie-tca, you're welcome.
<charlie-tca> Anything else for development?
<mr_pouit> no :)
<knome> what about packages
<charlie-tca> [TOPIC] [TOPIC] Bug Triage & Testing
<MootBot> New Topic:  [TOPIC] Bug Triage & Testing
<knome> is there any consensus/work made towards new default applications?
<charlie-tca> not yet
<charlie-tca> other than we are keeping Thunderbird
<knome> is there any work PLANNED to compare new default applications?
<charlie-tca> that is on the agenda, though
<knome> when is the "deadline"?
<charlie-tca> mr_pouit: when do we have to decide?
<charlie-tca> knome: as far as I know, no one has started comparisons
<knome> when is the last day to submit those comparisons, so we have time to test and vote?
<micahg> After Feb 24, a release exception will be needed
<knome> the day to submit comparisons should be way before
<Sysi> (/me joins in) are there any plans for what apps to change/add/remove?
<knome> Sysi, have you read the email list?
<charlie-tca> Let's get the comparisons in by the next meeting, then?
<charlie-tca> That gives a week or two to discuss them and vote
<Sysi> knome: not, url?
<pleia2> Sysi: defaults thread is here https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/xubuntu-devel/2011-January/thread.html#7640
<Sysi> thanks
<knome> Sysi, or, at http://lmgtfy.com/?q=xubuntu-devel+archives
<charlie-tca> [IDEA] Have all comparisons in for default applications selection by February 3
<MootBot> IDEA received:  Have all comparisons in for default applications selection by February 3
<Sysi> knome: i was going for that
<charlie-tca> As for testing, we have Alpha2 coming out next thursday
<charlie-tca> We need all the help we can get testing the images.
<knome> (brb)
<charlie-tca> anything else on the applications, bugs, testing?
<micahg> o/
<charlie-tca> Go ahead, micahg
<micahg> does 10.04.2 testing count?
<charlie-tca> sure
<micahg> thunderbird-locales needs testing in lucid-proposed
<charlie-tca> [ACTION] thunderbird-locales needs testing in lucid-proposed
<MootBot> ACTION received:  thunderbird-locales needs testing in lucid-proposed
<micahg> We have 3 new translations and updates for many more
<charlie-tca> Do you have to know the languages to test it?
<micahg> Bug #705028, New translations for Gaelic, Galician, and Serbian
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 705028 in thunderbird-locales (Ubuntu Natty) "Update Thunderbird translations to 3.1.7" [Wishlist,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/705028
<micahg> They should be in natty alpha 2 as well, but no testing per se is needed there
<charlie-tca> I tested the lucid-proposed docs this week. They are done for 10.04.2!
<micahg> thanks charlie-tca
<charlie-tca> Thanks to Book_Em_Dano for doing them
<micahg> charlie-tca also found a new bug (not a regression) introduced in the docs, but that will be addressed after 10.04.2 is released
<charlie-tca> Thanks, micahg, for bringing up the thunderbird stuff. It will be easier to get things done knowing it needs it
<charlie-tca> Okay, let's keep moving
<charlie-tca> [TOPIC] Website & Marketing
<MootBot> New Topic:  Website & Marketing
<charlie-tca> anyone?
<charlie-tca> We still need a marketing director
<charlie-tca> and it seems like a difficult job to lead, too
<charlie-tca> pleia2: anything on the website update?
<micahg> charlie-tca: I assume this is a volunteer position?
<charlie-tca> Yup
<charlie-tca> all of our stuff is
<knome> except project lead? :P
<charlie-tca> and no, you don't get paid to put in a lot of time trying to market Xubuntu
<charlie-tca> project lead is voluntary too, isn't it?
<knome> but it's not like you just step up and the position is yours, right?
<charlie-tca> neither are the rest
<charlie-tca> [TOPIC] Artwork
<MootBot> New Topic:  Artwork
<charlie-tca> Hm, the only update I have on this is that greybird is now in the daily images
<knome> also, about marketing xubuntu: in the last years, i have started to think the best way to "market" xubuntu is to produce high quality artwork and good looks. that makes people want to try xubuntu. saying xubuntu is for low-end pc's, or for those who want the most of their systems (now that everybody has 4GB of ram) is pretty much +-0
<charlie-tca> any one have anything?
<charlie-tca> A valid point, knome
<knome> a good set of default applications as well as a "traditional" DE will make xubuntu stand out
<charlie-tca> We have been trying to change the perception that Xubuntu is only for old and slow systems
<knome> especially now when gnome is getting shells and kde4
<charlie-tca> but it still requires a certain amount of marketing, including blogs, good reviews, user reports, posters, etc.
<Sysi> we have a chance now because xgce 4.8 is great, unity, gnome shell and kde4 are a bit weird :P
<Sysi> *xfce
<knome> agreed about blogs, good reviews and user reports, but really, they should be by users, not the developer community all the time
<knome> so we can't really affect that
<knome> what comes to posters... i've never seen one
<vinnl> We could encourage users to blog and spread the word
<charlie-tca> Great idea, how?
<Sysi> do we have any kind of idea about loco marketing?
<knome> yes, the 'marketing' should focus on users bring involved and by offering them low-hanging fruits
<vinnl> Provide them with a platform to blog on, perhaps
<knome> as many of the other areas of development too
<knome> there was this idea to put up a developer blog on xubuntu.org
<charlie-tca> that isn't for users, though
<knome> no.
<Sysi> i think people like more "their level" kind of marketing
<vinnl> On the other hand, something like this can easily turn into something with a lot of "Xubuntu doesn't keep this and this light-weight enough" of "Xubuntu doesn't include this or that application darnit"
<vinnl> Developer blogs also cost a lot of time
<knome> there already is developer blogs
<knome> the idea then was to aggregate
<charlie-tca> correct. that is why it takes a person to lead the marketing efforts and keep it going in a direction that benefits Xubuntu.
<knome> but since cody thought xubuntu.org is only for "official" news and stories, that never came to be
<charlie-tca> again, a developer blog on xubuntu.org is not for the users
<Sysi> my point is that if we can't create apple-style media circus we should maybe focus on lower level
<knome> yes, but right now the news/blog on xubuntu.org is "alpha1 released!" "alpha2 released!" "beta is here!" "10.10 is here!"
<Sysi> i think one eager person in loco can make much
<charlie-tca> yes, they could.
<charlie-tca> someone want to push this to the devel ML for us? It helps to keep track of the discussion if it is threaded and readable
<vinnl> I'm going to go now, though
<vinnl> Good luck with the vote charlie-tca :)
<charlie-tca> vinnl: need a news next week
<charlie-tca> thanks
<vinnl> What day?
<charlie-tca> should be out thursday
<knome> i vote a wiki page for the website discussion
<vinnl> alpha 2?
<charlie-tca> yes, alpha2
<knome> easier to follow the different options etc.
<vinnl> Noted :)
<knome> (and opinions as well)
<charlie-tca> great, knome. Want to take the action item for it?
<knome> sorry, nope :)
<vinnl> OK, bye then, good luck with the meeting
<knome> being busy with other things so i don't think that would make much sense for me to work on it
<knome> Sysi, maybe you could set the wikipage up
<charlie-tca> anyone else want to take this one?
<knome> Sysi, i can offer help when i'm available
<Sysi> knome: i'm busy for couple of weeks, end of high school
<charlie-tca> Okay, that will get tabled for now, then.
<knome> let's postpone this to the next meeting then (old business) and see again then
<charlie-tca> We need to keep moving
<charlie-tca> [TOPIC] Updates for Xubuntu 10.04.2
<MootBot> New Topic:  Updates for Xubuntu 10.04.2
<charlie-tca> We will be testing the images for 10.04.2 February 14
<charlie-tca> Is there anything else for this?
<micahg> o/
<charlie-tca> go
<knome> (a proposal for the agenda: let's move the PL vote as the next item so everybody having to leave @20UTC can join the vote)
<charlie-tca> We are ending at 20:00 UTC anyway. so let us get this doen
<charlie-tca> micahg:
<knome> charlie-tca, if not, and just to be sure.. :)
<micahg> ok, just wanted to mention that we should have Firefox 3.6.14 and Thunderbird 3.1.8 in 10.04.2
<micahg> s/should/most likely
<charlie-tca> We are gaining... :-)
<charlie-tca> Thanks, micahg
<charlie-tca> any other news/business on 10.04.2
<charlie-tca> [TOPIC] Announcements
<MootBot> New Topic:  Announcements
<charlie-tca> I have none this week.
<knome> you missed two items on the agenda
<charlie-tca> knome: the more you interrupt, the less we get done
<knome> but i think panel launchers are not worth to discuss before we've decided the default apps
<knome> charlie-tca, afaik, you don't have to stop typing while i type :P
<charlie-tca> let me know when you are ready to continue now
<knome> go on
<charlie-tca> [TOPIC] Governance structure
<MootBot> New Topic:  Governance structure
<charlie-tca> [TOPIC] vote for Project Lead
<MootBot> New Topic:  vote for Project Lead
<charlie-tca> We have a single nomination after trying for quite a while to make something definite happen with the Xubuntu Project Lead
<charlie-tca> The nomination is myself, as approved by the Community Council.
<charlie-tca> As previously explained in emails to the Xubuntu development and users mailing lists, we will vote to confirm this nomination and finalize the Project Lead.
<charlie-tca> pleia2: anything to add, as a Community Council member?
<charlie-tca> pleia2: also, any objections received?
<pleia2> nope, just one +1 from vinnl who couldn't make it to the meeting
<charlie-tca> Not having a firm method of selecting the project lead, we are going to allow anyone interested in Xubuntu vote at this time.
<charlie-tca> [VOTE] Please vote for Charlie Kravetz as the Xubuntu Project Lead
<MootBot> Please vote on:  Please vote for Charlie Kravetz as the Xubuntu Project Lead.
<MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
<MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
<knome> pleia2, did you notice the mail by steve dodies?
<knome> s/s/r/
<pleia2> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from pleia2. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
<micahg> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from micahg. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2
<pleia2> knome: yeah, it was sent to the list (not sure how voting for someone who didn't put their name forward works)
<pleia2> he didn't send an objection though
<knome> can i have a PM?
<pleia2> sure
<charlie-tca> I did respond to his email, explaining that mr_pouit turned the position down.
<pleia2> ok, thanks charlie-tca
<beardygnome> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from beardygnome. 3 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 3
<charlie-tca> +0
<MootBot> Abstention received from charlie-tca. 3 for, 0 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 3
<micahg> charlie-tca: very noble ;)
<MootBot> Private abstention received. 3 for, 0 against. 2 abstained. Count is now 3
<charlie-tca> micahg: thought I should do that, just for the official count.
<charlie-tca> Are there any other persons wish to vote, please do so now
<charlie-tca> going....
<charlie-tca> going...
<pleia2> ok, we'll count it as a private -1 (it's not knome)
<knome> :)
<pleia2> err, sorry, we got one -1
 * pleia2 typing fail today
<charlie-tca> that's okay. That makes it Count now 2
 * pleia2 nods
<charlie-tca> [ENDVOTE]
<MootBot> Final result is 3 for, 0 against. 2 abstained. Total: 3
<knome> pleia2, the most beautiful of them all today
<charlie-tca> Official total is 2, a carry, considering the number of participants, isn't it, pleia2 ?
<pleia2> yep
<charlie-tca> I will then be the official Xubuntu Project Lead, and I leave off the interim now.
<charlie-tca> Thank you all for participating
<knome> thanks and congratulations
<knome> i have to leave now
<charlie-tca> and, we are out of time
<knome> see you all later
<beardygnome> well done charlie-tca
<charlie-tca> thank you, beardygnome
<charlie-tca> Is there any other business to be discussed that won't wait?
<beardygnome> charlie-tca: you deserve it after all your hard work over the past months
 * micahg is surprised so few people voted
<charlie-tca> I just try to do my own little bit to help out
<charlie-tca> Me, too, micahg
<charlie-tca> but that is the way it is...
<charlie-tca> Thank you all for attending the meeting, we will meet again next Thursday, 19:00 UTC
<charlie-tca> [endmeeting]
<Sysi> (you need to know kinda much about project and people to vote)
<beardygnome> charlie-tca: i'm not sure that last command worked
<charlie-tca> [#endmeeting]
<evilvish> charlie-tca: its #endmeeting
<beardygnome> does it need to be in caps?
<charlie-tca> well, third times a charm, right
<micahg> thanks charlie-tca and congratulations
<charlie-tca> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 14:04.
<charlie-tca> thanks, micahg
<evilvish> charlie-tca: congrats ! :)
<charlie-tca> Thanks, evilvish
<MichealH> charlie-tca, Congrats
<charlie-tca> Thank you , MichealH
<charlie-tca> you didn't vote?
<charlie-tca> sorry, we been trying for 6 months to get the nominations approved and then get a vote doen.
<charlie-tca> s/doen/done
<pleia2> yeah, and since nominations go through the CC they can't exactly be added at last minute ;)
<quantumbit> I approve
#ubuntu-meeting 2011-01-28
 * marjo waves
<apw> o/
<pitti> \o
 * ara waves
<marjo> hi folks; let's get started on time
<jdstrand> o/
<marjo> #startmeeting
 * barry is the cjwatson for the day :)
<MootBot> Meeting started at 10:00. The chair is marjo.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
 * joshuahoover waves
<marjo> Natty Release Team Meeting
<Riddell> hi
<marjo> Please use ".." on separate line when you've finished typing. If someone wants to comment on the last point, please "o/", so we know to wait.
<marjo> [Topic] Natty overview - marjo
<MootBot> New Topic:  Natty overview - marjo
<marjo> Agenda is at: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ReleaseTeam/Meeting/2011-01-28
<marjo> Alpha-2 is next Thursday. 10.04.2 is due in just under three weeks.
<marjo> Milestoned bugs for alpha2 can be found at https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bugs?field.milestone=33572.
<zul> hi
<marjo> Most of the critical have been resolved, or retargetted to alpha 3, but there are some new ones that have cropped up, that are a bit concerning
<marjo> (apport issues in particular - bug 705572)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 705572 in apport (Ubuntu Natty) "retracer attaching incomplete backtrace" [High,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/705572
<marjo> any questions?
<marjo> ..
<pitti> I still need to look into that one, it's on the desktop report
<marjo> pitti: thx
<marjo> [TOPIC] Action review
<MootBot> New Topic:  Action review
<marjo> skaet's action items are in progress.
<marjo> # 2010/01/14
<marjo> * [leads] please scrub bugs for those that are needed for alpha 2, vs. ok later, so we can focus list - IN PROGRESS
<marjo> The bug list has grown a lot (and a few may be misfiled on the WIKI), so please see how many can get closed for alpha2, and move the misfiled ones to where they belong.
<marjo> # 2010/01/21
<marjo> * [Riddell] clean up kubuntu-dev work items chart.
<marjo> Riddell: do you have an update for us?
<Riddell> I cleaned it up
<Riddell> not sure if the burndown chart has updated yet
<marjo> Riddell: ok will mark it as done
<marjo> thx!
<Riddell> the  kubuntu-dev work items chart doesn't make much sense, none of the specs there are anything to do with kubuntu
<marjo> pitti: any thoughts on ^^^
<pitti> Kubuntu by and large uses a wiki page, so that chart isn't that useful indeed
<Riddell> aye it's not a big problem, we just use the https://wiki.kubuntu.org/Kubuntu/Todo wiki page, but it gives a misleading view to others
<pitti> I can remove it entirely if desired
<marjo> Riddell, pitti: should we just get rid of it?
<Riddell> listing only Kubuntu/Todo would be handy
<Riddell> missing out the specs which happen to have some kubuntu people assigned bits of them is the issue
<marjo> Riddell, pitti: ok, can you please discuss and make a recommendation?
<Riddell> yes
<marjo> [ACTION] Riddell to discuss with pitti what to do regarding Kubuntu work items chart and make recommendation
<MootBot> ACTION received:  Riddell to discuss with pitti what to do regarding Kubuntu work items chart and make recommendation
<marjo> [TOPIC] QA team update - marjo
<MootBot> New Topic:  QA team update - marjo
<marjo>  * Natty Alpha 2 Work Items
<marjo>  http://people.canonical.com/~platform/workitems/natty/canonical-platform-qa-natty-alpha-2.html
<marjo>  On track; hggdh working on server work items
<marjo> zul, bdmurray: thx for finishing your work items
<marjo>   * weekly testing status:
<marjo>  QA Dashboard
<marjo>  http://reports.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/qadashboard/qadashboard.html
<marjo> There's a new metric that shows top 5 with new bugs over the last 7 days. The mean number is over all packages with new bugs, not just the top 5.
<marjo> Note how linux, unity and software-center are in both the "Last Day" and "Last 7 Days" metrics. That indicates that those packages should continue to be areas of focus for aggresive bug management.
<marjo> Please give us feedback on this metric's usefulness and format.
<marjo>  Desktop Automated Testing results
<marjo> http://reports.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/desktop-testing/natty/
<marjo> Note: 298 test cases in 2D mode and 244 in Unity mode
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://reports.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/desktop-testing/natty/
<marjo>  Server Automated Testing results
<marjo>  http://204.236.234.12/view/ISO-server-Natty/?
<marjo>  Recent failures were due to AMD64 server images not being available
<marjo>  cjwatson: Per your request, the d-i log is now included in the Build Artifacts.
<marjo>  Please see http://204.236.234.12/job/LTP-lite/55/artifact/55/test-results/ as an example.
<marjo>  ..
<marjo> any questions for qa team?
<marjo> [TOPIC] Hardware Certification team update - victorp or ara
<MootBot> New Topic:  Hardware Certification team update - victorp or ara
<ara> hello!
<ara> The weekly testing report is available, as usual, at:
<ara> [LINK] http://people.canonical.com/~hwcert/hw-testing/current
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://people.canonical.com/~hwcert/hw-testing/current
<ara> This week you will notice that there are less targeted systems. We changed our approach and now we are aiming to obtain a good baseline of systems that are working correctly and are scheduled to be certified for 11.04. We will be adding new systems every week, once we have identified all of the potential issues with these ones.
<ara> For servers, no major errors were found, and the untested systems are due to infrastructure issues that we will take care of.
<ara> For clients, on the contrary, we found a major Xorg crasher during the installation of the Live CD. This was reported earlier this week by Mario Limoncello and Bryce took care of it, but, unfortunately, his patch does not seem to fix the issue, as we encountered a similar one in yesterday ISOs. We filed a new bug with new information and assigned it to Bryce:
<ara> [LINK] https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/xorg/+bug/708744
<ara> The results that we got for clients were obtained using the Alternate CD.
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/xorg/+bug/708744
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 708744 in xorg (Ubuntu) "Xorg segfaults during installation process" [High,Triaged]
<ara> ..
<marjo> thx ara
<marjo> any questions for the HW Cert team?
<marjo> [TOPIC] Security team update - jdstrand
<MootBot> New Topic:  Security team update - jdstrand
<jdstrand> hi
<cjwatson> marjo: yay, thank you
<jdstrand> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/ReleaseStatus/Natty
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/ReleaseStatus/Natty
<jdstrand> [LINK] http://people.canonical.com/~platform/workitems/natty/canonical-security.html
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://people.canonical.com/~platform/workitems/natty/canonical-security.html
<jdstrand> Not a lot to report. This last week we have been very busy focusing on stable release updates and have also been fixing security issues in natty. We have no milestoned features or bugs for alpha-2.
<jdstrand> ..
<marjo> thx jdstrand
<marjo> your team looks to be in good shape
<marjo> any questions for security team?
<marjo> [TOPIC] Kernel team update - apw
<MootBot> New Topic:  Kernel team update - apw
<apw> o/
<apw> Overall status is reported at the first link below.  Burn down for the release milestone is at the second link below.  Burndown for the cycle is at the third link:
<apw> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/ReleaseStatus/Natty
<apw> [LINK] http://people.canonical.com/~platform/workitems/natty/canonical-kernel-team-natty-alpha-2.html
<apw> [LINK] http://people.canonical.com/~platform/workitems/natty/canonical-kernel-team.svg
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/ReleaseStatus/Natty
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://people.canonical.com/~platform/workitems/natty/canonical-kernel-team-natty-alpha-2.html
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://people.canonical.com/~platform/workitems/natty/canonical-kernel-team.svg
<apw> We are heading to the end of natty-alpha-2 with most items closed out, two have been moved out to natty-alpha-3.  All of our pushed out items are listed with background on the overall status above (first link).  We are on the burn-down line for the first time in the milestone, YAY!  Overall burndown we are still below the line, so we are looking good overall.
<apw> Of the bugs called out on the agenda against the kernel, status is as below:
<apw> #344878 ecryptfs long filename are not likely to make natty-alpha-2 and moves out, we will need to make a decision on disabling this shortly;
<apw> #539467 SATA alpm is being disabled in userspace, upstream discussions are ongoing;
<apw> #542660, #600453, and #681877 (all black screen issues) are waiting for a v2.6.38-rcN based kernel for testing, which is now available in the archive;
<apw> #630748 remains waiting on Intel for updated wireless firmware;
<apw> #636091 still waits testing by the reporter;
<apw> #702090 looks to be an interaction with vesafb and is with upstream; and
<apw> #702166 is unreproducible and now closed.
<apw> The other bugs seem to be non-kernel packages, status is recorded on our status page where available (first link above).
<apw> Following a long period of instability the x86 suspend issues and some ARM display issues seem to be resolved.  We have therefore uploaded our first v2.6.38 based kernel, the main distro kernel is now at v2.6.38-rc2.  This is aimed for early testing and we are likely to upload a further kernel based on v2.6.38-rc3 on monday for natty-alpha-2.
<apw> ..
<marjo> thx apw
<marjo> apw: re: #344878, when do you plan to make the decision "shortly"? before alpha3?
<apw> well i think we should make a decision by then, i suspect its release/server teams ultimate decision as to disposition though
<marjo> apw: ack
<marjo> any questions for kernel team?
<marjo> [TOPIC] Foundations team update - barry
<MootBot> New Topic:  Foundations team update - barry
<barry> [LINK] http://people.canonical.com/~platform/workitems/natty/canonical-foundations.html
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://people.canonical.com/~platform/workitems/natty/canonical-foundations.html
<barry> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/FoundationsTeam/ReleaseStatus/Natty
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/FoundationsTeam/ReleaseStatus/Natty
<barry> good news: ratings and reviews has landed for s-c
<marjo> barry: congrats to the team
<barry> indeed, they've done some great stuff
<barry> also: we've fixed about a dozen bugs since the last update
<barry> two usb-creator bugs fixes that were annoying lots of people
<barry> python27 transition is going well, main looks pretty good, we still have a few minor bugs open but nothing critical and progress is good
<barry> upstart work is mostly done, waiting for scott's blessing
<Riddell> presumably python2.6 still expected to be in main for final?
<barry> i think that's about it, though i could paste the bug statuses that cjwatson forwarded to me if anyone's interested.  or let me know if there's a specific bug you're interested in.
<barry> ..
<marjo> barry: do you a response to Riddell's query?
<barry> Riddell: that's still tbd.  some of us want it, some don't.  we have to decide soon though
<barry> i'll take an action to get that decision run to ground
<marjo> barry: re: upstart blessing from scott, do you expect to get it before next Monday?
<barry> marjo: jhunt_ ?
<marjo> [ACTION] barry to drive decision re: python2.6 in main for final
<MootBot> ACTION received:  barry to drive decision re: python2.6 in main for final
<barry> marjo: i'll let you know when/if james responds to pvt query
<marjo> barry: ack & thx
<marjo> any questions for Foundations team?
<marjo> [TOPIC] Server team update - zul or daviey
<MootBot> New Topic:  Server team update - zul or daviey
<zul> hi
<zul> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/ReleaseStatus/Natty
<zul> Hi, good progress was made in the past week on our Work Items. The trend line is looking good. This weeks highlights include:
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/ReleaseStatus/Natty
<zul>  
<zul> * Cloud-init 0.6.0 was released on wednesday which fixed about 9 bugs and closed alot of work items.
<zul> * Axis2c FTBFS isbe looked at today we will look at investigating uploading a newer version of axis2c.
<zul> * Openstack went gamma today and will be expecting an upload to the archive later today.
<zul> * We are waiting for a new upstream release for cluster-agents which fixes a couple of bashisms.
<zul> * powernap 2.0 has been released and its looking really good, adds a "powersave" node and many more monitors.
<zul> * mcollective has been packaged, it was a colloboration effort.
<zul> ...
<marjo> thx zul
<marjo> any questions for the Server team?
<marjo> [TOPIC] Desktop team update - pitti or seb128
<MootBot> New Topic:  Desktop team update - pitti or seb128
<pitti> Blueprint implementation:
<pitti> - On track for entire cycle
<pitti> - Moved some noncritical WIs to alpha-3, so we are back on track for alpha-2 now. The remaining alpha2 WIs are mostly not code related and thus can happen during the freeze.
<pitti> General status:
<pitti> - Major unity/compiz update landed on Thursday; another bunch is expected next Monday, to bring back a reasonably usable Places component back.
<pitti> - New X.org stack is currently being landed, in time for alpha-2. It previously got tested in the xorg-edgers PPA, so it should not cause too much disruption.
<pitti> - LibO caused quite some CD growth (libreoffice-core grew by 10 MB, calc+writer by 2.6 MB), plus extra libreoffice-filter-binfilter dependency which has been dropped again now; tomorrow's dailies should be back within size limit.
<pitti> C bug status:
<pitti>  - We got a large number of new incoming ones, grinding through them now; nothing that totally breaks Alpha-2 yet.
<pitti>  - Details on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopTeam/ReleaseStatus
<pitti> ..
<pitti> that should be "R"C bug status, of course
<barry> marjo: follow up on upstart: james doesn't know as scott is still settling into his new job.  one merge request outstanding, and he will ping scott for progress
<marjo> thx pitti
<marjo> barry: thx for the update; i was just wondering as it relates to alpha2 next week
<barry> ack
<marjo> any questions for Desktop team?
<marjo> [TOPIC] Ubuntu One Team - joshuahoover
<MootBot> New Topic:  Ubuntu One Team - joshuahoover
<joshuahoover> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOne/NattyReleaseStatus
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOne/NattyReleaseStatus
<joshuahoover> details on where we're at with blueprints and releases are in the link above
<joshuahoover> i need to clean up our alpha 2 bugs...i'll be doing that today
<joshuahoover> released new packages for u1-client, u1-control-panel and sso-login which include the latest and greatest work related to the UI (mostly control panel) and also bug fixes
<joshuahoover> work continues on unity integration, which includes the u1 launcher item and integrating notifications with the launcher item
<joshuahoover> the resumable file uploads feature in syncdaemon was close to being ready for release until we hit a wall with resuming decompression of files this week..we're looking for alternatives to handle this right now...so we're behind on that by about 3 days
<joshuahoover> overall, we're still on target with new features...depending on what we find with resumable file uploads, we may need feature freeze exception, should know more by mid-next week
<joshuahoover> and that's about it
<joshuahoover> ..
<marjo> joshuahoover: re: unity integration work, anything expected for alpha2?
<joshuahoover> marjo: hopefully (is that vague enough?) :)
<dbarth> the API landed this week in fact
<marjo> joshuahoover, dbarth: ok
<joshuahoover> dbarth: right, so that improves the chances :)
<dbarth> so U1 would be our first client
<dbarth> but i wouldn't blame you for not integrating with it in just 3 days
<marjo> any questions for Ubuntu One team?
<marjo> [TOPIC] Kubuntu Team update - Riddell
<MootBot> New Topic:  Kubuntu Team update - Riddell
<Riddell> hi
<Riddell>  * KDE SC 4.6.0 is in and compiled, blocked on ARM by bug 708714
<Riddell>  * CDs building and no longer oversized
<Riddell>  * 13 bugs milestoned for alpha 2 http://goo.gl/yGhJd
<Riddell>  * bug 705915 and bug 705917 for ubiquity quite important for alpha 2 otherwise not alpha critical (besides ARM being broken)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 708714 in KDE Bindings "pykde fails to compile on ARM" [Unknown,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/708714
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 705915 in ubiquity (Ubuntu) "kde frontend layout breakage" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/705915
<Riddell>  * Some more green on https://wiki.kubuntu.org/Kubuntu/Todo
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 705917 in ubiquity (Ubuntu) "kde frontend keyboard selector broken" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/705917
<Riddell> ..
<marjo> thx Riddell
<marjo> any questions for Kubuntu Team?
<marjo> [TOPIC] Desktop Experience Team Update - dbarth
<marjo> dbarth: Thank you for your team's number on closing bugs over the last week.
<MootBot> New Topic:  Desktop Experience Team Update - dbarth
<dbarth> hiya
<dbarth> the weekly notes are up there as usual: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopExperienceTeam/NattyReleaseStatus
<dbarth> highlights for the week:
<dbarth> new compiz, bamf and libunity weekly releases
<dbarth> more a11y enablement
<dbarth> Compiz stacking issue 99% fixed, some minor issues remaining that are being worked on
<dbarth> Compiz reparenting/gnome-panel/Flash plugin crashing issue fixed
<dbarth> Dash slipped until Monday due to two critical GLib bugs. Upstream informed, we are working on fixing/working around.
<dbarth> New libunity Launcher item API (emblems, progress and quicklists)
<dbarth> Soundmenu: Playlists have landed with support for both Rhythmbox and Banshee.
<dbarth> Soundmenu: Spotify is supported.
<dbarth> Dbusmenu: Moved the menu parser from appmenu-gtk to dbusmenu-gtk and removed it from libappindicator.
<dbarth> Places daemons updated to work with new libunity.
<dbarth> No upload of indicator-network this week.
<dbarth> Auto-pilot version of unity landing today.
<dbarth> With performance statistics counting.
<dbarth> En route to automated performance testing framework.
<dbarth> First week of our Triage Pilot effort to have someone nominated from the team (together with Alex) to have a daily check on new and updated bugs.
<dbarth> (sorry if that looks a bit "blocky")
<dbarth> the big thing is that the compiz bug with menus is FIXE! smpillaz rocks!
<dbarth> and we have a nasty last minute blocker for the places, down into glib
<marjo> dbarth: busy week for your team
<pitti> I'm running it here and didn't get it any more indeed \o/
<dbarth> trying hard to save places for a2
<pitti> (it now breaks focus behaviour, though)
<dbarth> focus of?
<pitti> (can discuss off-meeting)
<dbarth> ah focus at the wm level
<pitti> but it's a great improvement
<dbarth> ahem, yes ;)
<marjo> any questions for DX Team?
<ScottK> dbarth: Is bug 707458 on your radar?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 707458 in libindicate-qt (Ubuntu Natty) "needs to be updated for the libindicate abi changes" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/707458
<dbarth> not at the top of it, but yes
<dbarth> i'm hit by hit everyday (using konversation)
<dbarth> by it
<dbarth> need to get agateau back on that
<ScottK> OK.  Thanks.
<dbarth> he's been distracted by this renegade unity project ;0
<marjo> any more questions for DX Team?
<marjo> [TOPIC] ARM team update - ogra
<MootBot> New Topic:  ARM team update - ogra
<ogra> Status is at:
<ogra> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ARMTeam/ReleaseStatus/Natty
<ogra> ..
<ogra> Summary:
<ogra>  * Unity-2d MIRs are filed minor glitches found by the MIR team are being worked on, if we can find a fix for 705689 in time before A2 we will have it on the images.
<ogra>  * Kernel is still 2.6.35 for OMAP 4, TI works hand in hand with linaro now to provide us a 2.6.38 tree, approximately ready for A3
<ogra>  * Kernel for OMAP 3 bumped to 2.6.38 now and also saw some DVI fixes by rsalveti
<ogra>  * WI work is well going forward
<ogra>  * Maverick kernel SRU testing is still in progress
<ogra>  * The new unity-places API is supposed to work on natty with unity-2d (testing still pending, the most recent unity-2d upload re-enabled it.
<ogra>  * Code for the minimal preinstalled developer images landed in livecd-rootfs (debian-cd changes to come soon) thanks to janimo
<ogra> ..
<ogra> Specs:
<ogra> Entire status: http://people.canonical.com/~platform/workitems/natty/canonical-arm.html
<ogra> Milestone: http://people.canonical.com/~platform/workitems/natty/canonical-arm-natty-alpha-2.html
<ogra> ..
<ogra> Serious Bugs:
<ogra> bug 705689
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 705689 in qt4-x11 (Ubuntu Natty) "unity-2d-launcher crashes with segfault error on armel (natty only)" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/705689
<marjo> ogra: can you please elaborate on " * Maverick kernel SRU testing is still in progress"?
<pitti> they are all in -updates AFAIK
<ogra> rightm but not all tested yet
<pitti> there's one more in the kernel PPA
<ogra> and we wlao often clash with security uploads
<ogra> which force the SRU out of -updates
<marjo> ogra: understood
<ogra> Gruemasetr often has to test twice or three times
<ogra> so its an ongoing process
<marjo> any questions for ARM team?
<marjo> [TOPIC] MOTU team update - ScottK
<MootBot> New Topic:  MOTU team update - ScottK
<ScottK> Nothing particularly new to report.
<ScottK> Working on NBS and various transitions.
<ScottK> ..
<marjo> thx ScottK
<marjo> any questions for MOTU Team?
<marjo> [TOPIC] Linaro update - JamieBennett
<MootBot> New Topic:  Linaro update - JamieBennett
<marjo> JamieBennett ?
<marjo> anybody representing the Linaro Team today?
<marjo> uh oh...
<marjo> [TOPIC] AOB
<MootBot> New Topic:  AOB
<marjo> going once
<marjo> going twice
<marjo> last chance for JamieBennett
<marjo> Thanks to ara, jdstrand, apw, barry, zul, pitti, joshuahoover, Riddell, dbarth, ogra, ScottK for a useful and effective meeting.
<pitti> thanks everyone!
<joshuahoover> thank you marjo!
<marjo> thx all!
<marjo> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 10:54.
<barry> thanks marjo!
<apw> marjo, thanks ...
<jdstrand> thanks marjo
#ubuntu-meeting 2011-01-29
<arch_is_awesome> ping
<Mkaysi> pong
<arch_is_awesome> Although I already wrote it earlier... ping (Mkaysi already ponged)
<shadeslayer> \o
<hakimsheriff> is da meeting starting?
<arch_is_awesome> Yes.
<serfus> seems like we are not too much, missing some key people, but we'll be fine :)
<phillw> #help
<nisshh> shall we start then?
<arch_is_awesome> Yes.
 * MH0 sneaks in
<MH0> Hia
<nisshh> ok
 * arch_is_awesome is Laughing
<nisshh> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 11:04. The chair is nisshh.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<nisshh> can i get a headcount to see who is here then please
<serfus> o/
<Mkaysi> o/
 * phillw here
 * arch_is_awesome is ponging
<nisshh> arch_is_awesome, ?
<MH0> o/
<nisshh> cool
<nisshh> ok, first topic
<MH0> arch_is_awesome: Say "o/"
<skfin> o/
<shadeslayer> o/
<arch_is_awesome> Oops, I just usually use ping pong okay
<arch_is_awesome> o/
<nisshh> [TOPIC]Project(s) Status & Completion Dates
<MootBot> New Topic: Project(s) Status & Completion Dates
<nisshh> now, i dont know who is actually doing projects, anyone?
<shadeslayer> i'll be in and out of this channel .... so just ping me if you want something from me :P
<nisshh> shadeslayer, ok
<Kaia> o/
<hakimsheriff> wait i will be back
<MH0> I can do a few projects
<MH0> Just need the ideas :)
<nisshh> serfus, do you know?
<arch_is_awesome> I might reboot my computer at some point, I am having problems with peripherals
<MH0> I can work on that youth.ubnut.com
<serfus> i think AndrewMC was about to start mentoring
<nisshh> was he
<nisshh> ok
<MH0> serfus: Its okay
<skfin> nisshh: I have a project about getting planet stable and not to break every day, estimated completion date: never
<phillw> nisshh: the guy who was going to do the website has had to resign, there is a replacement available, but the council would need to discuss that as it does them access to my server.
<nisshh> skfin, ok
<nisshh> phillw, yep, we can talk about that later in -council then
<MH0> phillw: Can we pijng in -council after meeting? :)
<nisshh> ok, shall we move on then?
<MH0> nisshh: Yup
<nisshh> ok
<phillw> of course, the agreement last meeting is that I only give root access to one person.
<nisshh> [TOPIC]New Members of the Council
<MootBot> New Topic: New Members of the Council
<nisshh> ok
<nisshh> as far as i know, the only changes here
<nisshh> are two new members
<arch_is_awesome> I have never gone to a meeting before.
<MH0> arch_is_awesome: Stay cool :)
<nisshh> me and MH0
<MH0> :)
<nisshh> MH0, michaelh?
<MH0> nisshh: Yeah Im michealH
<nisshh> ok
<serfus> i'm quite new as well
<nisshh> and jasono also got op in -youth
<nisshh> ok, and serfus :)
<arch_is_awesome> Quick Question - Does launchpad keep track of members?
<MH0> So If you need me or ryan I have no issues with people PMing me
<MH0> arch_is_awesome: Yes
<MH0> arch_is_awesome: Verified members are added
<nisshh> ok, moving along
<arch_is_awesome> One sec. what is the launchpad page?
<serfus> https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-youth
<nisshh> http://launchpad.net/ubuntu-youth
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://launchpad.net/ubuntu-youth
<nisshh> i think
<arch_is_awesome> https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-youth ?
<arch_is_awesome> Ahh.
<nisshh> thats the one yes
<nisshh> forgot the tilde
<serfus> arch_is_awesome, seems like you are already a part of the team
<arch_is_awesome> For some reason I am on the list....
<arch_is_awesome> That is what I meant.
<nisshh> arch_is_awesome, i think i accidently approved you the other day, before we got a chance to vote you in :)
<arch_is_awesome> Member since: 2010-02-16
<hakimsheriff> so lets vote now
<nisshh> oh ok
<nisshh> ok
<skfin> Is AndrewMC around?
<nisshh> [VOTE] Membership of arch_is_awesome
<MootBot> Please vote on:  Membership of arch_is_awesome.
<MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
<MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
<serfus> skfin, no he isn't
<serfus> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from serfus. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
<Mkaysi> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from Mkaysi. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2
<Muscovy> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from Muscovy. 3 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 3
<nisshh> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from nisshh. 4 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 4
<hakimsheriff> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from hakimsheriff. 5 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 5
<Kaia> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from Kaia. 6 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 6
<skfin> +0
<MootBot> Abstention received from skfin. 6 for, 0 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 6
<nisshh> [ENDVOTE]
<MootBot> Final result is 6 for, 0 against. 1 abstained. Total: 6
<nisshh> ok
<nisshh> welcome to the team arch_is_awesome
<serfus> arch_is_awesome, welcome aboard!
<skfin> I dont know enough about him to vote for :)
<skfin> Welcome anyways!
<hakimsheriff> Welcome!!!
<arch_is_awesome> Thanks.
<nisshh> arch_is_awesome, maybe you could tell us a bit about yourself then>
<nisshh> ?
<arch_is_awesome> Okay then,
<nisshh> just quickly
<arch_is_awesome> I usually use chakra or ubuntu linux, I know python and pyqt
<skfin> +1 :)
<arch_is_awesome> Also I am 12, live in jacksonville, FL USA
<phillw> arch_is_awesome: having a wiki page is always handy :)
<nisshh> nice
<nisshh> +1 to what phillw said
<arch_is_awesome> I am in 6th Grade
<arch_is_awesome> Okay, all done (for now)
<Kaia> arch_is_awesome: you have a launchpad page don't you?
<arch_is_awesome> https://launchpad.net/~stephenmac7
<Kaia> ^link to arch_is_awesome
<nisshh> phillw, do you know anything about the new team process/etc? (the next topic)
<nisshh> phillw, ?
<phillw> nisshh: we are recruiting council members, that way there should always be enough around for meetings.
<hakimsheriff> i want to be 1
<nisshh> ok
<nisshh> hakimsheriff, we offer, not the other way around :)
<hakimsheriff> okay, sorry
<nisshh> ok, do we have any other new members that need voting on?
<phillw> they must have signed the CoC and have a wiki page for them to be considered.
<arch_is_awesome> I have seen Zach's wiki page, I am not so sure I can write that much about myself
<serfus> arch_is_awesome, i will help you, don't worry :)
<nisshh> arch_is_awesome, it doesnt need to be that extensive
<nisshh> ok, moving along
<Mkaysi> arch_is_awesome: My wikipage is better example. It's so small. http://wiki.ubuntu.com/mkaysi
 * pedro3005 appears
<arch_is_awesome> I'll take a look,
<nisshh> [TOPIC]Slightly New Team Process/Ideas
<MootBot> New Topic: Slightly New Team Process/Ideas
<nisshh> ok
<phillw> arch_is_awesome: you ought to try https://wiki.ubuntu.com/phillw
<phillw> lol
<nisshh> so apart from the council recruiting new members
<nisshh> does anyone have any idea's for the team?
<arch_is_awesome> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/phillw is quite extensive :)
<nisshh> Mkaysi, arch_is_awesome, phillw, serfus, ?
<hakimsheriff> helping people getting more involved with ubuntu teams
<serfus> i know about the mentoring plan, tough not enough
<nisshh> yes
<MH0> Oop.. Havent been watching
<nisshh> serfus, we must ask zach about that :)
<pedro3005> well, if I may, I was discussing that in the channel recently. It seems that there's too much attention to the infrastructure of the team (i.e. bureaucracy) and not much attention to actually doing stuff
<arch_is_awesome> nisshh: Thinking...
<skfin> I will be away now on, please ping me if you guys need me->
<arch_is_awesome> pedro3005, I agree, that is what I was about to say... :)
<nisshh> pedro3005, yes, the mentoring system will change that soon, although ideas are welcome
<phillw> I'm pretty full with padawans at the moment, I'd like jasono to get involved to further his knowledge.
<nisshh> thats cool
<serfus> i just took arch_is_awesome as my "padawan"
<arch_is_awesome> About the mentoring system, how exactly is that going to work? Email, Jabber, or what?
<nisshh> arch_is_awesome, tbh, im not sure, its something zkreisse has been working on, i have yet to ask him about it
<Mkaysi> Email, Jabber or IRC.
<nisshh> i assume that IRC/email will be used
<serfus> arch_is_awesome, i will catch you up after the meeting
<Kaia> Can i be your padawan serfus?
<arch_is_awesome> query?
<arch_is_awesome> or in some mentoring channel?
<arch_is_awesome> (If it is IRC)
<serfus> not a channel i don't think so
<nisshh> arch_is_awesome, i would say, just in -youth
<phillw> arch_is_awesome: I finally nagged the UBT council into submission and bioterror is the 1st mentor (I quickly sold his slave to him :P )
<nisshh> anyone have anything else to say before we move on?
<serfus> guess not :P
<nisshh> ok
<arch_is_awesome> Yes, the mentoring, what is the plan (meaning how is it going to work)
<phillw> nisshh: can you post up the UBT link onto your wiki area?
<nisshh> arch_is_awesome, like i said before, i dont know the details, i will ask zach as soon as i see him though :)
<nisshh> phillw, what link?
<arch_is_awesome> Are the metors going to see what the users know and then build on that?
<arch_is_awesome> nisshh okay
<serfus> there is no a complete plan
<serfus> yet
<arch_is_awesome> Okay, moving on...
<nisshh> arch_is_awesome, basically, as most mentoring systems work, each mentor will be assigned one or more mentee's and then they can sort of guide them
<nisshh> thats all i know
<nisshh> righto
<arch_is_awesome> Okay then, that is enough.
<nisshh> [TOPIC]Any concerns, questions, or ideas? Please, bring them up!
<MootBot> New Topic: Any concerns, questions, or ideas? Please, bring them up!
<nisshh> ok, if anyone has any questions, go ahead
<MH0> nisshh: Right
<Mkaysi> I know that padawans are called as slaves, but they are only joking (but I think that they aren't).
<MH0> I want to say something
<nisshh> MH0, go ahead
<phillw> nisshh: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BeginnersTeam/
<nisshh> phillw, what about it?
<MH0> Earlier there was a spam attack outside UY, and I think us (the council) needs to defibne what to do as being as some spam links may not be nice to see
<MH0> We need to think of a policy to deine such a thing
<arch_is_awesome> I agree
<MH0> I think AndrewMC, had one, thoguh
<nisshh> but if this attack happened in channels outside of the youth teams, i dont see it as our issue?
<Mkaysi> MH0: evilMichealH +1 supybot with badwords (with URLs) +2
<nisshh> zkriesse, hey
<nisshh> you late
<nisshh> your*
<zkriesse> I know
<zkriesse> Internet troubles
<nisshh> zkriesse, we are on the last topic :)
<Mkaysi> nisshh: #ubuntu-stack was attacked by spamming.
<zkriesse> nisshh: Who's chairing
<MH0> zkriesse: Can you +Vv arch_is_awesome In UY
<nisshh> Mkaysi, right, which is not our channel, so i fail to see what it has to do with us
<MH0> zkriesse: nisshh
<phillw> MH0: there has been a discussion on the doc email list about spam attacks, the best way is for those who know wiki to subscribe to the pages, that way they get alerted for every change and can see the changes.
<Kaia> hey zkriesse
<serfus> i don't think we should involve bans with other channels
<nisshh> agreed
<MH0> serfus: But spam links may not be very Touth freindly esp. from spambots
<MH0> *youth
<nisshh> MH0, we only need to moderate spam in the youth channels
<arch_is_awesome> agreed
<phillw> MH0: there are so many of us admin to go around!
<Mkaysi> If spambots are attacking #ubuntu-stack why they couldn't attack #ubuntu-youth ?
<serfus> sure, but we have no sign that he will attack our channel
<nisshh> outside of that, its not something the youth team can really control
<zkriesse> They haven't, it's not our channel, if they do we'll do something
<nisshh> exactly
<MH0> Okies
<zkriesse> But until they do we have our own channel to maintain...plus we haven't been ASKED to help that channel
<MH0> Just a idea :)
<hakimsheriff> i agree with zkriesse
<Mkaysi> IDEA: Setup supybot with BadWords and add spam URL:s as badwords.
<MH0> I was talking about a poliy for spams outside UY to be banned inslide UY incase spambots had bad links
<nisshh> Mkaysi, we arent putting your bot in -youth, its way too spammy
<serfus> i too agree with zkriesse and nisshh
<arch_is_awesome> I agree with serfus
<nisshh> ok
<Mkaysi> nisshh: My bot would cause problems, and I am not talking about it.
<nisshh> heh
<nisshh> ok
<nisshh> anyone have any other questions?
<Mkaysi> nisshh: Ubot4 is supybot? Couldn't it do that? (BadWords is comes by default in supybot)
<nisshh> zkriesse, im charing btw
<zkriesse> Ok, while a team opinion is good on such a matter on spambots in other channels, ultimately somthing of that nature would be a council decision
<nisshh> chairing*
<zkriesse> nisshh: So i've noticed...I appreciate you taking charge
<nisshh> Mkaysi, im not familiar with the bots
<nisshh> zkriesse, yeah, it was either me or serfus really
<MH0> nisshh: And me? :P
<serfus> MH0, you were not here as well
<nisshh> oh, or MH0 :)
<serfus> when we have started
<nisshh> MH0, but you werent her at the time :)
<zkriesse> Really who chairs the meeting for UY is council members
<zkriesse> Not just anyone
<nisshh> yeah
<serfus> anyhows let's continue
<nisshh> ok, so if no one else has anything to add, i will end the meeting?
<zkriesse> Hold on
<zkriesse> So all topics have been covered?
<arch_is_awesome> zkriesse: Yes
<Kaia> i have nothiing to add
<zkriesse> Ok then
<nisshh> zkriesse, well, as much as could be without you here, yes
<zkriesse> Well then let's go through it a bit
<zkriesse> We've still got half an hour
<nisshh> sure
<serfus> okay
<zkriesse> Ok, back to first topic if you please nisshh
<arch_is_awesome> Need to leave for a sec.
<nisshh> ok
<zkriesse> #project status(s)
<nisshh> [TOPIC]Project(s) Status & Completion Dates
<MootBot> New Topic: Project(s) Status & Completion Dates
<serfus> zkriesse, we didn't have much to say about topic 1 and 2
<nisshh> what serfus said
<zkriesse> Well, I kinda wanted to know...how are they progressing
<zkriesse> Ok then, Topic 3 is one I do need to talk about
<nisshh> i dont even remember who had projects last meeting
<MH0> zkriesse: I have a new proposition for a project
<zkriesse> MH0: We'll take care of that in UY
<nisshh> maybe we need a projects page on the wiki zkriesse?
<MH0> In UYC? Its concerning the Website
<zkriesse> nisshh: Indeed you're very right on that
<nisshh> ok
<zkriesse> nisshh: Topic 3 if you please
<nisshh> [ACTION] nisshh to setup a project summary page on the wiki
<MootBot> ACTION received:  nisshh to setup a project summary page on the wiki
<nisshh> sure
<nisshh> [TOPIC]New Membership Process Discussion
<MootBot> New Topic: New Membership Process Discussion
<nisshh> zkriesse, go ahead
<zkriesse> Ok, due to the UY Council growing in size, we will be having a slightly different membership process
<MH0> Mentorship at last? :)
<nisshh> Mkaysi, serfus, arch_is_awesome, you all listening?
<zkriesse> For a while it was simply, "Apply, check the users lp and wiki page(s) if applicable, and then choose an experienced mentor to lead said applicant"
<serfus> sure
<zkriesse> Well, skip last part
<zkriesse> Just find em, get them a wiki page, they're in
<nisshh> yep
<nisshh> so whats changing?
<hakimsheriff> dats good
 * Mkaysi is listening.
<zkriesse> But, since we are getting a sizable council, we should be able to find a few more good experienced folks who are willing to help lead/mentor the inexperienced or those who wish to be mentored in a particular subject
<zkriesse> Not necissarily will it be the Council doing the leading but us and a few others who ask/and are approved to do so
<zkriesse> That make any sense?
<serfus> so we will get the mentoring project more sorted out
<serfus> that's good
<zkriesse> Yes indeed serfus
 * hakimsheriff agree with zkriesse completly
<nisshh> zkriesse, i think once the process gets worked out, a mentoring page in the wiki would be good
<arch_is_awesome> Google just sent a new computer here, I forgot about it.
<arch_is_awesome> I will come to the next meeting.
<zkriesse> nisshh: I was gonna work on that..if you'd like to collaborate with me on that and the project page that'd be awesome
<nisshh> sure
<arch_is_awesome> Just need to get this to work, curiosity is killing me,
<serfus> arch_is_awesome, sure, i'll update you
<nisshh> zkriesse, have anything else to add?
<zkriesse> arch_is_awesome: Don't worry, there will be logs
<zkriesse> nisshh: For that topic? Nadah
<nisshh> ok
<nisshh> any other topic?
<zkriesse> And that somewhat merges into topic four so we're good!
<nisshh> ok
<zkriesse> If nobody has anything else to add feel free to end the meeting nisshh
<nisshh> ill end the meeting then
<nisshh> yep
<nisshh> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 11:46.
<zkriesse> Thanks all for coming, and I appreciate the amazing participation
<hakimsheriff> bye everyone
<serfus> what zkriesse said :P
<nisshh> i will post the link to the logs to the mailing list for everyone
<hakimsheriff> okay thx
<zkriesse> Ten minutes to meeting
<zkriesse> Ok, before it starts can I get a show of hands? Who's here for the Ubuntu Beginners Team (BT) Wiki Focus Group Meeting
<MH0> Im Lurking
<zkriesse> Ok
<zkriesse> Anyone else?
<zkriesse> [startmeeting]
<zkriesse> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 12:59. The chair is zkriesse.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<zkriesse> Ok, welcome to the BT WIki Focus Group Meeting
<zkriesse> Been a while since we've had one of these I know but that is changing
<zkriesse> If the wiki will cooperate I shall have a meeting agenda lol
 * MH0 hopes the wiki aint playing up
 * MH0 gets the boot :P
<UndiFineD> plenty of bugs in the wiki
<zkriesse> [Link] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BeginnersTeam/FocusGroups/Docs#Meetings
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BeginnersTeam/FocusGroups/Docs#Meetings
<zkriesse> There's the agenda for the meeting
<zkriesse> Ok, first topic!
<zkriesse> [TOPIC] Topic 1 - Start of meeting, show of hands etc.
<MootBot> New Topic:  Topic 1 - Start of meeting, show of hands etc.
<zkriesse> Ok, so....welcome to the meeting, glad you're here, if yo could just toss out your name and say "Im here!" or something that'd be great!
<MH0> Im Here o/
<UndiFineD> something that is great
<zkriesse> UndiFineD: Joker....
<zkriesse> collinp: You here for the meeting too?
<collinp> Somewhat.
<zkriesse> Yay!
<zkriesse> Ok, well...moving on then
<zkriesse> [TOPIC] Topic 2 - Time to get the team back on track...
<MootBot> New Topic:  Topic 2 - Time to get the team back on track...
<zkriesse> Alright, as of late the BT has been going through some restructuring so I've been loathe to make any sudden movements which could possibly upset everything...but now that the boat is stable well, time to get stuff moving again!
<zkriesse> Since we're almost into Spring (At least we dang well better be...too cold for me :P) I'd like for us to start getting prepared for the Summer of Documentation project
<zkriesse> It's a great project, one which is fun, and awesome as it helps do a few things
<zkriesse> Helps get the Wiki cleaned up and maintained, AND helps those who are interesed in wiki/doc work to learn more about the wiki and how the innards of it works
<zkriesse> Any suggestions for a jump start to the wiki fg?
<MH0> Hmm... So for the Summer of oc project
<MH0> What will happen, all the unedited pages get deleted or?
<zkriesse> We will be working more closely with the Ubuntu Documentation Team this year, helping them train new recruits, taking on some of the ones they need to have trained, and overall easing of their workload
<zkriesse> MH0: Good question, the Summer of Documentation Project is basically the cleaning up/editing/and yes, deleting of old, forgotten pages on the help.ubuntu.com/community and wiki.ubuntu.com pages
<MH0> Can we start now or is there a perticular date for it?
<zkriesse> Well the "Summer of Doc" implies that it starts in the summer but the cleaning and maintaining of the wiki is a constant battle
<zkriesse> So while there isn't a "Start Date" perce, there is a big "party" for the start of the project
<zkriesse> Usually on the first day of summer or that
<MH0> What priority pages will require cleanup?
<zkriesse> Thats another good question
<zkriesse> If you take a look at, https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Tag
<zkriesse> You'll see that it lists a huge amount of "tags" that can be put on the help.ubuntu.com/community pages
<zkriesse> If you don't know what the whole "Tag" thing is don't worry
<zkriesse> That is easily explained and learned...
<MH0> I know Tagging :)
<zkriesse> On each page you can tag a page, and based upon the tag it will require less or more attention
<MH0> So the most tagged + main pages are priority?
<zkriesse> This is also where I kinda introduced a bug system for this whole thing
<zkriesse> It can depend
<zkriesse> But usually yes, tagged pages have been truly recognized as "Needing Cleaning" or etc
<phillw> zkriesse:
<zkriesse> phillw: ?
<phillw> this may come as a flood, but from the email list...
<phillw> > Over the last month or so i have been using the Recent Pages page
<phillw> >Â https://help.ubuntu.com/community/RecentChanges?max_days=7Â 
<phillw> <cut>
<phillw> Hi
<phillw> If is a persistant problem you can evaluate to introduce a TexCha [1] or
<phillw> added in wikiconfig.py more range ip in hosts_deny = [ ]
<phillw> In italian wiki we exclude some chinese range ip.
<zkriesse> !pastebin | phillw
<ubottu> phillw: For posting multi-line texts into the channel, please use http://paste.ubuntu.com | To post !screenshots use http://imagebin.org/?page=add | !pastebinit to paste directly from command line | Make sure you give us the URL for your paste - see also the channel topic.
<zkriesse> Ok, when I mentioned "Bug System" i'm sure some of you were like "Bugs???? For a wiki page? Seriously?"
<phillw> it is about vandalised pages, I'm sorry that I can not be more active, I'm still on duty shift as my bar staff has a poorly son.
<zkriesse> phillw: It's fine phillw
<zkriesse> phillw: Appreciate the notice
<zkriesse> Well yes, I was and am serious...I introduced a bug system on the BT Wiki LP page last year for tracking who edits what pages for the SOD (Summer of Documentation) project
<zkriesse> If you go to Well yes, I was and am serious...I intro
<zkriesse> dangit
<MH0> to bad there want a request for adminship becuase I would clearly block vandals ect.
<zkriesse> MH0: it takes much time and progress to become a Wiki Admin
<MH0> Yeah
<zkriesse> https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu-beginners-wiki-sod
<MH0> I fully understand that
<zkriesse> If you look at that page you'll see some bugs that are listed
<zkriesse> Those are old but a very good example of what I'm speaking about
<MH0> Okies
<MH0> So when would new bugs apper?
<MH0> *appear
<zkriesse> When you edit a page on the wiki for the SoD project I usually ask that you go to that page and file a bug...List the Wiki/Community Help page URL, the nature of the "Bug" (General Cleanup, complete overhaul, spell checking/edits, etc) and if it's been triaged, or if it's in progress
<MH0> So as we look around
<MH0> We can tag pages for SOD?
<zkriesse> If that doesn't make sense, please...ask and I'll explain in more detail
<zkriesse> Yes
<zkriesse> If it's an edit for the Summer of Documentation project do that
<zkriesse> Otherwise do not
<zkriesse> This is just for the SoD project alone
<MH0> zkriesse: It didnt make sence
<phillw> zkriesse: you will getting two extra people for the next SOD, possibly 3 :)
<zkriesse> phillw: Rad my man
<MH0> What pages are under sod?
<zkriesse> All wiki/community help pages
<phillw> any page that needs updating
<zkriesse> Ok, lemme say it this way
<MH0> oh so all help.ubuntu.com?
<zkriesse> help.ubuntu.com/COMMUNITY
<zkriesse> and wiki.ubuntu.com
<MH0> Yeah
<MH0> Duh I amskign too many Q's
<MH0> So when will the switchover to the new theme take?
<zkriesse> When the SoD project starts, and say, Bobby wants to edit help.ubuntu.com/community/examplepage for the SoD project, he would file a bug on the https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu-beginners-wiki-sod page, list the page URL, the nature of the bug/edit, and then list if it's been triaged, work in progress, etc
<MH0> on help.ubuntu.com
<zkriesse> That is a question which I have no answer atm
<MH0> Triaged = Ready for SoD to work on?
<zkriesse> Triaged is it's been taken care of
<zkriesse> Or is being worked on
<phillw> it may be worth mentioning that currently the italics is not working on the new scheme
<MH0> pI noticed
<MH0> phillw: ^^
<phillw> the bug has been assigned to AlanBell
<zkriesse> Or you can do "In Progress, Fix Committed, Confirmed, Invalid, Incomplete, Fix Released"
<zkriesse> Those are the main ones I request ya use
<UndiFineD> so we need more tagging, bugfiling and fixups
<zkriesse> But if in doubt contact me or someone else who's done one
<zkriesse> UndiFineD: BTW I got your request to join, pm me after meeting and we'll discuss it
<UndiFineD> :)
<MH0> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/PhpBB2 << This will be Outdated?
<MH0> Its now PhpBB3 isnt it?
<zkriesse> Well I imagine that some use PhpBB2 still so it's not current
<phillw> MH0: some people still run it, but phpbb3 is the current version.
<zkriesse> But neither is it outdated
<MH0> Marked as Cleanup?
<zkriesse> It would just be good to leave the page/check it for errors, and put an notice on the page either at the top or the bottom that phpBB3 is the current version and that it's page can be found at "foo"
<phillw> MH0: the page would simply need a mention that there is now phpbb3 and a link.
<zkriesse> After that it'd be fine to leave
<MH0> zkriesse: Need to learn these TAAAGGGS off by heart :P
<zkriesse> Just bookmark the page
<zkriesse> As each tag links to a separate page with all the pages that have been tagged with that particular tag
<MH0> Okies
<MH0> Got the 2 wiki ninjas with me ;D
<MH0> So, Anything else I would need to do as per SoD?
<zkriesse> And if i page has been marked for removal OR you think it should be removed, don't do ANYTHING without first consulting phillw or myself
<zkriesse> MH0: Just the usual after that, stay safe and curteous in editing as it's other peoples work that you're changing, make sure you edit correctly and always follow wiki guidelines
<phillw> +1 I promised Phil Bull that I will retain a copy on my system and my server.
<zkriesse> And always, ALWAYS talk to me or phillw if yo have a question
<MH0> It says before adding Tags I need to consult Doc team?
<zkriesse> Yes..you always should....or you can ask me or phillw and we'll find out for you
<zkriesse> Which is why we hang out in #ubuntu-doc
<phillw> MH0: yes you do need to do so.
<MH0>  /joinign
<MH0> Gah! keyboard
<zkriesse> phillw: BTW can I have you join #ubuntu-beginners-wiki ?
<zkriesse> That's pretty much topic 2
<zkriesse> Before I jump onto topic 3 any questions?
<MH0> It only took 20 mins *chuckle*
<phillw> zkriesse: ....... yeah I will, but there is only so much of me to around the teams.
<zkriesse> phillw: I just like to have yo there is all
<zkriesse> [TOPIC] Topic - 3 Whos still around?
<MootBot> New Topic:  Topic - 3 Whos still around?
<UndiFineD> o/
<MH0> o/ Im new, In a way
<zkriesse> I figured i'd ask...is anyone around from last year in the team?
<zkriesse> MH0: Yes...you're very new
<phillw> zkriesse: done, and added to autojoin
<zkriesse> phillw: Ty my good man
<UndiFineD> and for me the same as phillw is having
<zkriesse> Ok....i gues on to topic four then
<zkriesse> [TOPIC] Topic 4 - Ideas/Suggestions and Q&A
<MootBot> New Topic:  Topic 4 - Ideas/Suggestions and Q&A
<zkriesse> I think the topic speaks for itself, any ideas? Bring em up...any suggestions? We buy those too...and we always sell Q&A
<zkriesse> Anything? Anything at all?
<UndiFineD> no you were quite clear :)
<zkriesse> Well then I guess I shall end it the meeting
<zkriesse> Thanks all for showing, I appreciate you coming and all the questions...afterwards ya can find me in #ubuntu-beginners-wiki for wiki/doc related matters
<zkriesse> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 13:41.
 * MH0 slacks
<MH0> Meh, getting ready for Tour Meeting
<redfelixk30> hallo at all
#ubuntu-meeting 2011-01-30
<topyli> irc council meeting time i believe. jussi, tsimpson, nhandler, Pici, around?
<nhandler> o/
<jussi> o/
<nhandler> Is ikonia here?
<jussi> nhandler: shall we go throught the standing items first
 * Pici shrugs
<jussi> as per the agenda?
<nhandler> Sure. I was just poking him
<topyli> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 12:05. The chair is topyli.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<topyli> jussi: aye
<topyli> no new bugs
<Pici> no new taxes
<nhandler> topyli: Is this action done? [ACTION] topyli to announce the approval, update wiki page to remove draft header, and add any links/factoids he feels are necessary to make the page easy to find
<nhandler> My action items are done
<topyli> i have added a factoid
<jussi> Pici: done this? Pici to edit the guidelines wiki
<Pici> jussi: No, I was putting together the wording elsewhere.
<nhandler> I thought IdleOne edited that right after the meeting
<topyli> i looked at the wiki and i think the guidelines page should link to the shell policy, after explaining that shell providers have some responsibility too
<topyli> i didn't what to change it without discussing first
 * nhandler has no objections
<Pici> I don't see a problem with that.
<jussi> SOunds right to me
<topyli> i'll do it
<Pici> Do we have a cutover date for the new council member?
<Pici> Or official word from the CC on it?
<jussi> No
<topyli> [action] topyli to link from guidelines to shell policy
<MootBot> ACTION received:  topyli to link from guidelines to shell policy
<topyli> while we're at the guidelines page, i noticed that it says ""If no other ops are available, you can contact the IRC council via the ubuntu-irc mailinglist."
<Pici> That should probably point to the private list.
<topyli> that's strange. you can contact the ircc via the ircc list
<jussi> Pici: +1
<topyli> yes i'll fix that when i'm there
<jussi> thanks
<topyli> OR we can change the wording to "you can reach the irc team via the ubuntu-irc list" :)
<jussi> topyli: nah, its an escalation thing
<jussi> so should be us, IMHO
<Pici> Agreed, as there are other non-ops subscribed to the ubuntu-irc list.
<topyli> oh that's true
<topyli> ok, i'll change the list
<topyli> no other action items to review
<topyli> ikonia is not around. can we discuss his item?
<topyli> i would like to have him around to present it, as the item only says he's not happy
<nhandler> I tend to agree.
<Pici> I'm not sure what part of the proposal page is his as well.
<topyli> he has added a placeholder only
<Pici> Right, I meant besides that.
<jussi> is the other stuff not old now?
<topyli> the first two sections look like his old items
<Pici> so...
<topyli> alright, maybe we should defer until we can have him join
<topyli> any other issues?
<jussi> not from me.
<Pici> Nor
<Pici> I
<nhandler> jussi: Since I think you already poked someone, do you want to continue to follow up with the CC (re: election)
<nhandler> topyli: Can you also give jussi the action to chair the next meeting?
<jussi> nhandler: of course - it should be here soon
<topyli> gladly
<topyli> [action] jussi to chair next meeting
<MootBot> ACTION received:  jussi to chair next meeting
<topyli> :)
<jussi> :)
<topyli> [action] topyli to handle post-meeting items
<MootBot> ACTION received:  topyli to handle post-meeting items
<jussi> ok! thanks everyone!
<topyli> thanks all
<topyli> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 12:24.
<Pici> Have a good day everyone
<topyli> oh five minutes until our loco meeting. i can actually attend for a change! :)
<MrChrisDruif> Did I miss the Ubuntu IRC Council meeting?
<topyli> MrChrisDruif: yep. 18:00 utc
#ubuntu-meeting 2012-01-23
<brendand> #startmeeting Ubuntu Friendly
<meetingology> Meeting started Mon Jan 23 16:00:09 2012 UTC.  The chair is brendand. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/AlanBell/mootbot.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Ubuntu Friendly Meeting | Current topic:
<brendand> Hi everyone, welcome to the weekly Ubuntu Friendly meeting
<roadmr> hey!
<balloons> hi brendand
<brendand> topics for today are:
<brendand> Introduction of Ubuntu Friendly community to QA Community co-ordinator (balloons): brendand
<brendand> Checkbox 0.12.9 SRU for Oneiric: roadmr
<brendand> AOB
<brendand> Let's get started
<brendand> #topic Introduction of Ubuntu Friendly community to QA Community co-ordinator
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Ubuntu Friendly Meeting | Current topic:  Introduction of Ubuntu Friendly community to QA Community co-ordinator
<brendand> I just want to take a moment to introduce balloons, who is the new Ubuntu Community QA co-ordinator
<balloons> hello everyone!
<brendand> Since Ubuntu Friendly is a QA community, I imagine we'll be working in close collaboration
<brendand> For balloons benefit, Ubuntu Friendly is a hardware validation program where people can test their system and upload the results to a site which scores the system according to how well it runs Ubuntu
<balloons> yes, I will be lurking and coming up to speed on the work everyone is doing here, then we'll see where we can collaborate
<balloons> I was actually fortunate enough to find and use ubuntu friendly in order to buy a new laptop last month :-)
<brendand> balloons - great!
<balloons> so it's nice to meet everyone behind the site. It came in handy
<brendand> We have this meeting every week, pending there being topics on the agenda: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuFriendly/Meetings
<brendand> If there are no topics we cancel it
<brendand> That's really it, unless balloons wants to ask questions?
<brendand> ..
<balloons> I'm the entire agenda :-
<balloons> sweet!
<brendand> balloons, not quite
<balloons> lol..
<balloons> yes thank you brendand. I don't have any other questions at this time
<brendand> balloons - since you're guest of honor today, it's not a problem, but just for future everyone should put their hand up like this: o/ before talking :)
<brendand> i should actually have put that at the beginning
<roadmr> o/
<brendand> roadmr - go
<roadmr> a question! balloons, where can we find you if we need to discuss something with you?
<roadmr> ..
<balloons> o/
<brendand> balloons?
<balloons> sure you can find me on irc in different channels, but #ubuntu-testing is a great place. In addition my launchpad page has my email address, and your welcome to email me at any time
<brendand> balloons - thanks!
<balloons> my nick is generally always online so your welcome to leave a message as well
<brendand> okay, moving on to the next topic..
<brendand> #topic Checkbox 0.12.9 SRU for Oneiric
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Ubuntu Friendly Meeting | Current topic:  Checkbox 0.12.9 SRU for Oneiric
<brendand> for which roadmr has the floor
<roadmr> thanks!
<roadmr> this is a quick one
<roadmr> I noticed Daniel Holbach sent a call for sponsors to help review the packages sponsoring queue
<roadmr> this should help get our pending 0.12.9 SRU respin through
<roadmr> but if you know any Ubuntu sponsors and are willing to give them a nudge to help checkbox get reviewed and released that'd be great
<roadmr> we're like 3 months away from 12.04 and we still haven't released the Oneiric SRU - if we don't get it out soon it'll be almost pointless and no Oneiric users will benefit from those fixes :(
<roadmr> the sponsoring queue is here if you're curious: http://reqorts.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/sponsoring/
<brendand> o/
<roadmr> brendand: go ahead!
<brendand> speaking as a checkbox developer, apart from being more careful and not messing up some of the patches is there anything we could have done to make this go faster?
<brendand> ..
<roadmr> brendand: short of directly asking someone with sponsor superpowers, I don't think so
<roadmr> brendand: I'm not sure if we should somehow withdraw the old merge request, that *may* help things but in any case is not documented anywhere
<roadmr> that's it really on this topic
<brendand> ok
<brendand> finishing off
<brendand> #topic AOB
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Ubuntu Friendly Meeting | Current topic:  AOB
<brendand> Any other business?
 * roadmr has nothing else
 * brendand neither
<brendand> going
<brendand> going
<brendand> gone
<brendand> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Mon Jan 23 16:19:06 2012 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-01-23-16.00.moin.txt
<brendand> Thanks all
<roadmr> thanks brendand!
<jdstrand> hi!
<jdstrand> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Mon Jan 23 18:00:50 2012 UTC.  The chair is jdstrand. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/AlanBell/mootbot.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
<jdstrand> The meeting agenda can be found at:
<jdstrand> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/Meeting
<mdeslaur> hi!
<jdstrand> [TOPIC] Review of any previous action items
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Review of any previous action items
<Gnostus_> Morning everyone!
<jdstrand> Happy new year and welcome to our first meeting this year :)
<mdeslaur> \o/
<jjohansen> \o
<sbeattie> heya
<jdstrand> [TOPIC] Announcements
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Announcements
<tyhicks> o/
<Gnostus_> :)
<jdstrand> Thanks to Mahyuddin Susanto (udienz) for his help on security updates for the community supported lighttpd (LP: #906792), cacti (LP: #906773) and squid3 (LP: #907690) packges on lucid and higher over the last weeks.
<jdstrand> Also would like to thank Ante Karamati? (ivoks) for providing a debdiff for lucid for phpmyadmin (LP: #913846)
<jdstrand> Thank you to Harald Jenny (harald-a-little-linux-box) for providing a debdiff for hardy for openswan (LP: #917754)
<jdstrand> All of your work is very much appreciated and will keep Ubuntu users secure. Great job! :)
<jdstrand> [TOPIC] Weekly stand-up report
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Weekly stand-up report
<jdstrand> I'll go first
<jdstrand> I should have a short week this week, with friday off
<jdstrand> I'm on triage
<jdstrand> I also have several pending updates that should go out today and tomorrow
<jdstrand> I've got a bit more archive admin work to catch up on (did some this weekend, but not caught up yet)
<jdstrand> I also have a number of MIR audits I need to process
<jdstrand> I'll get to work items as I have time. I have an initial implementation of aa-easyprof, but need to write tests for it, upstream it and get it into the packaging
<jdstrand> I think that is it from me
<jdstrand> mdeslaur: you're up
<mdeslaur> I'm in the happy place this week
<mdeslaur> I have an embargoed security issue to test
<mdeslaur> and I plan on working on a couple of embargoed security bugs
<mdeslaur> and have another set of embargoed updates to test too
<mdeslaur> and
<mdeslaur> embargoed embargoed blah blah embargoed
<jjohansen> :)
<mdeslaur> that's it from me
<mdeslaur> sbeattie: you're up
<jdstrand> lots of embargoed stuff lately...
<sbeattie> I'm on community this week
<sbeattie> I have an openjdk regression update to publish
<sbeattie> I'm also working on glibc and openssl updates
<sbeattie> I need to poke at the maverick-proposed gdb package I built on lucid for an escalated support issue
<jdstrand> sbeattie: that openjdk regression is the one that slangasek and doko were talking about?
<sbeattie> Yes
<jdstrand> sbeattie: awesome. thanks for that
 * jdstrand hugs sbeattie 
<Gnostus_> :)
<sbeattie> I verified that it fixes the specific regression, I just need to generally test and publish
<sbeattie> I also need to get back to my apparmor work items, and perhaps help jj get a 2.7.1 release out the door.
<sbeattie> I think that's it for me.
<sbeattie> micahg: poke
<micahg> I have to finish testing the rapid release migration for Firefox 9 for lucid/maverick and migrate that to updates, another round of chromium upload to proposed this week, patch pilot, and hopefully make some headway on webkit before the next round of mozilla updates come
<micahg> tyhicks: tag
<tyhicks> I'm in the happy place this week
<tyhicks> I hope to have a full week, but I am selected as an alternate juror, so we'll see
<tyhicks> I have been focusing on upstream eCryptfs kernel bugs and got those patch sets out to the appropriate lists last week for comment
<tyhicks> I've got 1 small revision that I need to do and then I want to turn my focus to my update queue
<tyhicks> That will likely be the ruby update, first
<tyhicks> I think that is it for me
<tyhicks> jjohansen: you're up
<jjohansen> I need to catch up on my USN publications from being sick at the end of last week
<jjohansen> and then do some testing on the fix for the /proc/pid/mem issue instead of the revert that we used as the emergency fix
<jjohansen> I need to push out the apparmor 2.7.1 release before it gets any bigger (thanks for all the bug fixes)
<jjohansen> and I need to finish up on the mount rules for apparmor so people can test them
<jjohansen> oh and I should poke at a couple of ecryptfs patches
<jjohansen> that is review them
<jjohansen> I think that is it from me
<tyhicks> jjohansen: I've gotten some review, so don't spend a lot of time on those patches
<tyhicks> (but a review would be great :)
<jjohansen> tyhicks: oh nice, I haven't gotten as far as even seeing if you had review, just saw them in my in box
<jdstrand> [TOPIC] Highlighted packages
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Highlighted packages
<jdstrand> The Ubuntu Security team will highlight some community-supported packages that might be good candidates for updating and or triaging. If you would like to help Ubuntu and not sure where to start, this is a great way to do so.
<jdstrand> See https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/UpdateProcedures for details and if you have any questions, feel free to ask in #ubuntu-security. To find out other ways of helping out, please see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/GettingInvolved.
<jdstrand> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/mpack.html
<jdstrand> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/torque.html
<jdstrand> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/torcs.html
<jdstrand> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/open-vm-tools.html
<jdstrand> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/libsdp.html
<jdstrand> [TOPIC] Miscellaneous and Questions
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Miscellaneous and Questions
<micahg> o/
<jdstrand> As jjohansen alluded to, people are talking quite a bit about the recent /proc/<pid>/mem handling in the kernel.
<jdstrand> We have released an emergency update today (http://www.ubuntu.com/usn/usn-1336-1/)
<jdstrand> micahg: go ahead
<micahg> so, dholbach is looking for speakers for UDW and I thought it might be nice if someone gave a talk on helping with security updates
<micahg> the timeslots are 30 minutes each
<jdstrand> micahg: when is it?
<micahg> Jan 31 - Feb 2 IIRC
<micahg> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDeveloperWeek/Timetable
<jdstrand> istr someone from the team doing this once before
<jdstrand> does someone have an already prepared presentation they could use?
<jdstrand> well, we can discuss that later
<jdstrand> micahg: noted
<jdstrand> Does anyone have any other questions or items to discuss?
<sbeattie> o/
<jdstrand> sbeattie: go ahead
<sbeattie> nuclearbob proposed a couple of additional tags for qrt in bug 913818 and bug 913812, and I wanted to get the team's opinions on them
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 913818 in QA Regression Testing "Proposal for tag to indicate conflicting dependencies" [Undecided,Opinion] https://launchpad.net/bugs/913818
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 913812 in QA Regression Testing "Flag for tests not applicable to current series" [Undecided,Opinion] https://launchpad.net/bugs/913812
<sbeattie> one is to indicate that the packages from one test-script will conflict if installed with the packages from another test script
<sbeattie> and the other is to indicate a specific release that a test script is deprecated, because the package has been pulled from the archive or for some other reason.
<jdstrand> the latter seems totally fine
<jdstrand> the former seems like a maintainence issue. I guess the idea is so that a test environment can be reused?
<sbeattie> I guess
<jdstrand> QRT-Isolation
<jdstrand> hmm
<mdeslaur> aren't qrt tests supposed to be run in a clean environment?
<jdstrand> ideally, yes
<mdeslaur> I don't like QRT-Isolation, but am fine with the other one
<jdstrand> that is not enforced, just what we encourage
<sbeattie> mdeslaur: I think the thinking is to run as many in a clean environment if they don't conflict/interfere, to reduce the cost of spinning up umpteen vms
<micahg> do the packages conflict or the tests?  if it's the packages, we should enforce this at the package manager level if appropriate
<mdeslaur> micahg: the packages, and it is already handled fine by the package manager
<micahg> ok, good :)
<jdstrand> micahg: well, I think a level higher would probably be easier for the framework to handle
<sbeattie> micahg: I think the packages enforce it, but e.g. the install-packages script is designed around a single test script situation
<mdeslaur> so, QRT-Isolation would just be a tag to say that test needs to be run by itself?
<mdeslaur> ie: we don't need to specify conflicts and stuff manually with that tag?
<sbeattie> mdeslaur: hold on, lemme look at the bzr branch he submitted
<jdstrand> if that is the case, that seems ok
<mdeslaur> yeah, if it's just adding the tag, then I'm fine with it
<mdeslaur> also, does the QRT-Deprecated tag specify a release?
<jdstrand> as an aside, I just realized I am not getting qrt bug mail. I'm guessing our team should probably be getting that. shall I set it up that way?
<mdeslaur> jdstrand: sure
<sbeattie> mdeslaur: hrm, his bug proposes QRT-Isolation, but the branch submitted uses QRT-Conflicts and specificies individual test scripts.
<mdeslaur> sbeattie: yeah, that's what I don't want...as I have no way of maintaining a QRT-Conflicts tag
<sbeattie> (branch is at https://code.launchpad.net/~nuclearbob/qa-regression-testing/max-changes ; I've already merged the bits not related to those two bugs)
<jdstrand> QRT-Conflicts sounds messy. QRT-Isolation seems ok
<jdstrand> my 2 cents
<sbeattie> Okay, let's follow up in the bug report
<sbeattie> I can take that action
<mdeslaur> ah, he's conflicting packages
<jdstrand> [ACTION] sbeattie to follow up on qrt bugs from QA team
<meetingology> ACTION: sbeattie to follow up on qrt bugs from QA team
<mdeslaur> wait a sec, that's not too bad
<sbeattie> mdeslaur: well, that's sort of capturing redundant info from the package manager
<mdeslaur> sbeattie: yeah
<jdstrand> and surely different releases will have different conflicts
<sbeattie> anyway, I think we've flogged this enough and can move on
<mdeslaur> ok
<jdstrand> any other questions or items to discuss?
<mdeslaur> nope!
<mdeslaur> :)
<jdstrand> mdeslaur, sbeattie, micahg, tyhicks, jjohansen: thanks!
<jdstrand> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Mon Jan 23 18:38:42 2012 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-01-23-18.00.moin.txt
<micahg> thanks jdstrand
<mdeslaur> thanks jdstrand
<tyhicks> thanks jdstrand
<sbeattie> jdstrand: thanks!
<cjwatson> soren: hi - you're chairing this week, right?
 * stgraber waves
<kees> o/
<cjwatson> paging emergency holographic chair?
<cjwatson> is it just the three of us this week?  I didn't see any apologies on the list
<stgraber> just poked mdz and pitti in -devel
 * kees should apologize for continuing to not make time for the brainstorm review. :P I'll try harder.
 * cjwatson can hardly criticise given his performance last time
<cjwatson> I should warn that mdz gets more sarcastic the more time passes ;-)
<stgraber> hmm, apparently pinging them in -devel didn't help, so indeed looks like it's just the three of us
<mdz> sorry I'm late
<cjwatson> we apparently have no chair yet
<cjwatson> I guess I can emergency chair
 * kees doesn't have soren's phone # any more
<stgraber> I can do it to, whatever you prefer
<cjwatson> I wouldn't object - I think you're next in rotation anyway
<kees> alpha-skip to stgraber pleases my OCD :)
<stgraber> yep
<stgraber> #startmeeting Ubuntu Technical Board meeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Mon Jan 23 21:09:00 2012 UTC.  The chair is stgraber. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/AlanBell/mootbot.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Ubuntu Technical Board meeting Meeting | Current topic:
<stgraber> #topic Action review
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Ubuntu Technical Board meeting Meeting | Current topic:  Action review
<stgraber> kees: so keeping "kees to perform brainstorm review" for an extra two weeks then? :)
<kees> yes please. *sheepish*
<stgraber> #topic Harmonizing DMB membership expiring dates (tumbleweed)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Ubuntu Technical Board meeting Meeting | Current topic:  Harmonizing DMB membership expiring dates (tumbleweed)
<stgraber> tumbleweed: around?
<tumbleweed> hi, yes
<stgraber> hi!
<tumbleweed> it looks like you've mostly covered this on the list
 * stgraber looks at ML logs
<tumbleweed> we just wanted to reduce the number of elections we need to do
<cjwatson> Mark acked this and I don't really see a reason to object personally
<stgraber> ok, I'll implement the change then
<tumbleweed> thanks, that was easy :)
<cjwatson> so just extend everything to 13 Feb
<cjwatson> ?
<cjwatson> (with various years)
<tumbleweed> that'd be great
<cjwatson> then it settles down to a nice rotation of four each year
<tumbleweed> except that laney just extended a year, so it'll be 3 and 5
<stgraber> #action stgraber to harmonize the DMB expiring dates  (extend bdrung to 2013-02-13 and micah, tumbleweed and then the two new members to 2014-02-13)
<meetingology> ACTION: stgraber to harmonize the DMB expiring dates  (extend bdrung to 2013-02-13 and micah, tumbleweed and then the two new members to 2014-02-13)
<tumbleweed> but I'm sure we'll have an early retirement or something
<stgraber> does that sound like what we want^
<cjwatson> that's ok by me
<micahg> stgraber: that should be 1 new member, I still need to file a mail to the TB ML about extending laney as well
<stgraber> micahg: oh, right
<Laney> anyone heard anything from persia yet?
<stgraber> ok, I quickly did it on LP: https://launchpad.net/~developer-membership-board/+members
<cjwatson> not I
<stgraber> haven't heard anything either. Wondering if we should deactivate his membership from the team to make things clearer, especially now that I just extended tumbleweed's term.
<Laney> I think that would be a good thing to do: ask him to check in with the TB on his return
 * kees nods
<stgraber> is everyone happy with that?
<cjwatson> it seems cognate with what we do for developers who go missing
<micahg> not happy, but understandable
<cjwatson> I think he will understand
<micahg> yes, indeed
<tumbleweed> if you could also squeeze in a decision on Laney extending his membership back to 2 years, it'd save us having to persuade him to nominate himself for re-election
<stgraber> yeah, I'm writting a "de-activation" message on LP and will e-mail him as well
<Laney> I thought the feeling was that it wasn't needed (as the original date was an error), but ymmv
<cjwatson> "back to 2 years"?  did you reduce it at some point?
<Laney> It was erroneously added as 1 year initially
<Laney> s/It/I/
<cjwatson> oh, fixing errors shouldn't require a TB vote surely
 * micahg is sending the TB E-Mail momentarily for records reasons
<tumbleweed> micahg: thanks
<stgraber> Laney: right, that was an old mistake you asked us not to fix initialy?
<Laney> I wanted to delay deciding due to previous events
 * Laney wonders how long that hob has been on and unlit for
<micahg> FTR, https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/technical-board/2012-January/001171.html
<cjwatson> it's a bug if TB meetings blow up your kitchen
<stgraber> ok, bumped Laney's "expiry" to 2013-02-13 and de-activated Emmet's membership
<stgraber> I think that's it for the DMB?
<tumbleweed> yes, thanks
<stgraber> perfect
<Laney> cheers all
<stgraber> #topic Adjustment to backports upload policy (cjwatson)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Ubuntu Technical Board meeting Meeting | Current topic:  Adjustment to backports upload policy (cjwatson)
<cjwatson> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/technical-board/2012-January/001166.html
<cjwatson> OK, so as I noted in the mail, I *think* this is an editorial change, but broder seemed to have a different reading so I wanted to make sure I was correct
 * cjwatson gives people a bit to read
 * micahg doesn't think uploading to -updates or -security directly should be allowed
<cjwatson> I don't think I was suggesting that as such
<micahg> no, but I think it might be able to be inferred :)
<cjwatson> ubuntu-security is currently a celebrity though and I think that ought to eventually be fixed
<kees> Yeah, I think whitelist would be better than blacklist here. "Uploads to all pockets: ~ubuntu-core-dev for all components"
<kees> i.e. not -updates and -security
<cjwatson> anyway, none of this supersedes the general prohibitions on uploading to certain pockets
<kees> just a language change, I'm fine with the intent
<cjwatson> I can clarify that explicitly in the LP bug if needed
<kees> right, cool.
<mdz> I'm not sure I follow
<mdz> are you saying that you want the policy to remain the same despite the underlying technical restrictions changing?
<cjwatson> mostly I just wanted to make sure that the TB hadn't intended to prohibit -backporters from uploading to backports; that's what Evan writes in his report of the relevant meeting, but it contradicts my memory of my intent
<cjwatson> no
<cjwatson> s/my intent/our intent/
<cjwatson> in general, I want to make it easier for ubuntu-backporters to do things that currently only ubuntu-archive / ubuntu-core-dev (variously) can do
<cjwatson> where it pertains to the backports pocket
<mdz> makes sense
<stgraber> having the backport team be able to manage their pocket and upload to any component of it sounds good to me.
<Laney> the bug is more general because AFAICT that is how the feature in LP should be. It'll be a separate decision for the TB to decide which delegations to grant.
<cjwatson> specifically, relative to now, I want them to be able to manage queues for the backports pocket (agreed in last meeting, AFAIK uncontroversial), and upload to backports regardless of component (I thought we agreed this in the last meeting but it wasn't in the write-up, so I'm suggesting we make it explicit if everyone agrees)
<mdz> I don't remember that discussion...at the 9 Jan meeting?
<cjwatson> the write-up is written in terms of closing an anomaly which we believed to exist but which turned out not to exist, and therefore the write-up is confusing
<cjwatson> at the meeting that coincided with UDS
<mdz> oh, so October
<mdz> I think I missed that meeting
<mdz> which explains why I'm confused
<mdz> I abstain
<cjwatson> November, I think - hunting logs
<cjwatson> http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2011/11/03/%23ubuntu-meeting.html
<cjwatson> you were present
<cjwatson> http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2011/11/03/%23ubuntu-meeting.html#t18:52 - ah, it was incomplete and finished next meeting
<cjwatson> http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2011/11/17/%23ubuntu-meeting.html#t18:12
<mdz> yes, I believe I missed 11/28
<mdz> anyway, I don't want to hold things up
<stgraber> so basically the question is: do we agree that members of the backport team can upload to the backport pocket, whatever the component and without any relation to their upload rights to the release pocket?
<stgraber> anyway, that's a +1 for me
<mdz> +0, I'll support the consensus
<cjwatson> stgraber: yes.  I'm sorry that this seems to require set theory notation to express clearly :-)
<stgraber> kees: ?
<cjwatson> my position is basically that the backports team has by this point a long track record of responsibility and we should let them get on with it :)
<cjwatson> so +1 in case that isn't obvious
<stgraber> hmm, looks like we lost kees, quickly scanning the mailing-list for things we might have missed
<kees> +1
<stgraber> kees: thanks
<stgraber> #agreed Backport team is allowed to upload to the backport pocket in any of its components whatever the person's upload rights to the main archive are
<stgraber> #topic tmpfs for /tmp
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Ubuntu Technical Board meeting Meeting | Current topic:  tmpfs for /tmp
<stgraber> we received: https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/technical-board/2012-January/001167.html
<stgraber> is that something we want to discuss now or should discuss by e-mail/bug report?
<kees> I've been against a tmpfs /tmp because it doesn't seem to really solve anything.
<stgraber> I vaguely remember us (or maybe another distro, I said vaguely ...) mounting /tmp as tmpfs if / was full or close to being full but can't find any trace of that on my system, so maybe it disappeared (or I was just dreaming)
<cjwatson> I am nervous about that mail because it is definitely missing some things; the installer's partitioning rules would certainly need to be adjusted.
 * soren stubmles in
<stgraber> as the guy who runs hundreds of containers on his machines, I'm definitely against tmpfs by default as it'd basically kill my system
<kees> stgraber: yeah, it to try to avoid apt/dpkg pain in the face of a full fs.
<soren> Gosh, I'm so sorry I (pretty much) missed this meeting!
<kees> no idea where that went
<cjwatson> stgraber: it used to exist in Ubuntu; Ian added t, I think
<cjwatson> *it
<cjwatson> "mountoverflowtmp" or some such?
<cjwatson> but I think that's mostly sideways to psusi's proposal
<stgraber> cjwatson: yeah, looks like we might have lost it with the switch to mountall?
<stgraber> (I quickly scanned /etc and mountall's code for anything related to tmpfs and couldn't find a trace of it)
<cjwatson> the initscripts changelog says it was replaced by an upstart job
<stgraber> which apparently got dropped (or my grepping skills disappeared recently)
<cjwatson> I'm kind of -0.5 on this because I don't feel the system performs well in some cases when tmpfses fill up
<cjwatson> but I don't have a clear written-up rationale
<cjwatson> some people with particular system use models seem to prefer it and I certainly think it should be a supported model
<stgraber> I know some of my systems (most?) would start crashing if they were using tmpfs (obviously depending on what gets written to /tmp)
<micahg> also, /run is already a tmpfs
<cjwatson> but I find myself unable to support it as the default
<stgraber> my understanding is that it's essentially a one line change in /lib/init/fstab (or through /etc/fstab) to change the fstype from "none" to "tmpfs"
<cjwatson> micahg: right, but the bug is specifically asking for /tmp, not just for tmpfses to exist
<micahg> right, I was just pointing out the decreasing need for such a thing as stuff is being migrated to /run
<stgraber> micahg: yeah, so far I haven't seen a badly written piece of software fill up my /run though I definitely did for /tmp, /run is pretty new, I'm sure it'll come :)
<cjwatson> micahg: I'm not sure I agree, but in any case I think it's moot :)
<micahg> oh, sorry for the noise then :)(
<cjwatson> stgraber: lines in /etc/fstab for a given mount point will override /lib/init/fstab - people shouldn't ever need to change the latter
<cjwatson> I think this would benefit from e-mail discussion
<stgraber> agreed, then we can update the bug based on the outcome (and get rid of a pretty old bug potentially)
<stgraber> #topic Chair for next meeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Ubuntu Technical Board meeting Meeting | Current topic:  Chair for next meeting
<stgraber> soren: ^
<soren> I guess that will be me :)
<stgraber> perfect
<stgraber> #topic AOB
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Ubuntu Technical Board meeting Meeting | Current topic:  AOB
<soren> I hope I don't triggers kees's OCD too hard :)
<kees> heheh
<stgraber> we can just move backward through the list of that helps kees' ocd :)
<cjwatson> odc
<kees> no need. :)
<stgraber> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Mon Jan 23 21:56:32 2012 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-01-23-21.09.moin.txt
<stgraber> thanks everyon!
<stgraber> *everyone
<soren> "I have CDO. It's just like OCD, but with the letters in alphabetical order, like they're supposed to be."
<stgraber> soren: ;)
<kees> thanks stgraber!
<soren> stgraber: Yeah, tahnks for filling in.
<stgraber> soren: np
#ubuntu-meeting 2012-01-24
<mmrazik> hi everyone
<mmrazik> Lets have a meeting introducing some of the quality stuff we are doing inside Canonical and more specific the Product Strategy department
<mmrazik> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Tue Jan 24 15:31:53 2012 UTC.  The chair is mmrazik. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/AlanBell/mootbot.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
<AlanBell> hi mmrazik
<mmrazik> We have one agenda topic and that is the introduction to testability -- a test automation framework for Qt
<mmrazik> hi
<gema> o/
<greyback> Hi all
<mmrazik> [TOPIC] Testability (aka automated testing in Qt environment)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Testability (aka automated testing in Qt environment)
<mmrazik> greyback was so kind to do the introduction :-)
<mmrazik> greyback, your turn :)
<greyback> mmrazik: ok, thank you
<greyback> Hey all, I'm Gerry Boland, team lead of the Unity 2D project. I'm here to talk about automated testing!
<greyback> We all use our desktops every day. We know it is important for the desktop shell to be reliable, consistent and fast.
<greyback> From the programmer's side, we strive to maintain these qualities. But we're human, and we make mistakes.
<greyback> Sometimes a bugfix will break something else, and it's easy to miss these breakages.
<AlanBell> are you using at-spi to do the testing?
<greyback> AlanBell: hold on, I'm getting to it (short answer: no)
<greyback> We have documents called "manual User Experience tests" where human beings follow a step-by-step procedure to verify the software is doing exactly what it should. But why not automate it!
<greyback> In Unity 2D, we have just introduced an automated User Experience test system, based on a test framework called "Testability Driver" (I'll just call it 'Testability' from now on)
<greyback> Testability is for Qt-based applications.
<greyback> Its core feature is that it allows inspection of the tree of QObjects in a Qt application while it is running.
<greyback> It can read and write object properties, call methods and slots, verify signals are emitted, as well as faking mouse/keyboard/gesture inputs, grabbing visual outputs, and measure performance.
<greyback> And best of all, Testability is open source and maintained by Nokia!
<greyback> To show it off, here is a screengrab of the Testability Visualizer application which allows you to dig into the QObject tree and investigate what's going on (here, the Launcher):
<greyback> http://i.imgur.com/Kp7RA.png
<greyback> On the left is a preview of the app, in the center is the object tree which you can navigate, and on the right is the list of properties, methods and signals you can interact with.
<greyback> All these properties, methods, signals, etc, are scriptable via Ruby. Thus we can emulate every interaction that a user can make with the software, and measure the reaction.
<greyback> This forms the foundation for the Unity 2D User Experience testing suite.
<greyback> .
<greyback> Testability works as follows:
<greyback> - *any* Qt application using Qt4.6+ can be tested by executing it with the "-testability" switch (and any previous with a little code)
<greyback> - a standalone server "qttasserver" runs in the background
<greyback> - With the -testability switch, the Qt library tries to load a "libtestability.so" plugin which establishes a connection between the application and qttasserver, giving access to the root node of the object tree.
<greyback> - qttasserver then climbs the QObject tree, reads all the info it can and converts it to an XML format. It also can receive commands and cause the application to react upon them (click here, type, etc..).
<greyback> - A series of Ruby scripts connect to qttasserver, parse this XML and allow us to script tests and interactions with the application.
<greyback> - from here, can use existing test frameworks like Test::Unit or Cucumber to run tests
<greyback> .
<greyback> The Unity 2D test framework also includes an extra helper library to control the X server, to control the mouse and keyboard, and to manipulate windows on the desktop. As far as X is concerned, you are controlling it.
<greyback> With the ability to fake any form of user input, and directly read the output from the shell applications themselves, we can test almost every behaviour of the desktop shell. And as a result, the quality of the experience will only go up.
<greyback> As a demo, here is a video of part of the Unity 2D test suite in action. On the right is Ubuntu Oneiric running inside VirtualBox, where the Launcher will be tested. On the left is my host machine terminal running the test suite:
<greyback> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Unity2DTestability?action=AttachFile&do=get&target=testability.ogv
<greyback> (I hope you can all see it)
<greyback> It shows various hide/show tests are being performed, with windows in the way, mouse being controlled, keyboard shotcuts being pressed etc.
<mmrazik> greyback, is the X helper library developed by the Unity-2D team or is it something "standard"?
<greyback> mmrazik: it's a heavily customised version of a ruby library for xdotool
<greyback> mmrazik: it's in the unity-2d source repo as a result (but some stuff I want to push upstream)
<greyback> Our policy is that every new feature and bug fix in Unity 2D will now be tested like this.
<Riddell> greyback: is testability proprietary or free software?
<greyback> Riddell: open source
<greyback> Links: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Unity2DTestability
<Riddell> greyback: so we can package it for ubuntu and have other people be able to test unity 2d and expand that to other qt uses?
<greyback> https://projects.developer.nokia.com/Testabilitydriver/wiki
<greyback> Riddell: exactly. I've packaged it up in my PPA (see first link), and hope to get it into Ubuntu proper
<greyback> Riddell: idea is that everyone can run the tests we do, and help add to them
<greyback> Ok, that's my spiel. Thanks for your attention everybody. Questions welcome!
<Riddell> I'm sure plenty of people would be happy to review the packaging if needed
<AlanBell> greyback: it would be great to see tests for orca users too. With a dummy speech dispatcher module you can get the text orca would read out loud piped to a file, then the test can validate that non-visual users would be hearing something sensible
<greyback> Riddell: I hope so. I'll need help to get it properly packaged (I made a few shortcuts)
<greyback> AlanBell: I agree. Certainly we can read the accessibility text that is sent to Orca directly from the Qt application itself
<greyback> AlanBell: but yes, test to ensure Orca is getting the right strings is important
<AlanBell> reading the final output is sometimes more instructive than the individual strings
<greyback> That's a good point. No certainly, that is something I will investigate more
<greyback> There is still plenty to do
<AlanBell> I can help you with the speech dispatcher module, I have one that just appends to /tmp/orca.out
<greyback> That would be great
<greyback> Unity2D is reasonable for A11Y, but can be better. Every bit helps
<greyback> Thank you
<AlanBell> is the HUD stuff included in this testing?
<greyback> HUD needs to be written in Unity2D yet :) But yes, it will not be accepted unless there are tests for it
<AlanBell> great
<mmrazik> AlanBell, unfortunately testability is Qt specific
<mmrazik> so unity 3D goes with custom solution - Autopilot
<greyback> AlanBell: I'm assuming unity-core has unit tests to check HUD works at a lower level
<mmrazik> right now the wiki is work in progress but to get some idea: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Unity/QA/Autopilot
<mmrazik> yes, that is exactly the case
<gema> mmrazik: any way to create an abstraction layer so that you can reuse the test cases between both?
<mmrazik> in matter of fact Mark even published some coverage data on his blog
<mmrazik> gema, we were thinking of cucumber
<mmrazik> but those are very early thoughts ATM
<mmrazik> not real work was done yet
<kalikiana> greyback: can it run something like xephyr to avoid fiddling with the running system?
<gema> mmrazik: ack
<AlanBell> greyback: yeah, I am just trying to push orca testing back in the development lifecycle as far as possible, hopefully as far as design one day!
<greyback> kalikiana: yes. In fact, I have it set up to run tests on Ubutu inside a virtual box, but controlled by the host machine
<greyback> kalikiana: it ensures as little changes as possible are made to the sustem being tested
<kalikiana> ah, nice
<greyback> kalikiana: Xephyr isn't quite a "pure" but something I have in mind to also support
<kalikiana> greyback: I'm mainly saying xeyphr since it's less overhead and faster
<kalikiana> not every potential tester may want to have a vm running
<greyback> AlanBell: noted. I must admit, it's been some time since I've tested Unty2D and Orca. But we do test them manually during the bug-fixing stage of the cycle
<AlanBell> yeah, it is harder then ;)
<greyback> kalikiana: indeed. You can run these test on your machine too, it just mucks up your desktop a little afterwards :)
<AlanBell> stuff like the new shortcut overlay in unity just plain doesn't work with orca as it can't be focussed
<mmrazik> Ok.  Any other questions?
<greyback> AlanBell: yep. Unity2D has a problem with the Dash textbox, it can't be navigated with Orca. It needs to be fixed
<greyback> AlanBell: yes if you should share where I could get that dummy speech dispatcher, I'd be grateful
<mmrazik> As we are running out of time -- many thanks for joining us, for good questions and thanks greyback for the talk.
<greyback> You're welcome!
<mmrazik> We are also blogging about our activities on http://qualityhour.wordpress.com/ :)
<mmrazik> And we want to make these public meetings on a monthly basis.
<mmrazik> So see you next time!
<mmrazik> byt
<mmrazik> bye
<mmrazik> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Tue Jan 24 15:59:01 2012 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-01-24-15.31.moin.txt
<AlanBell> greyback: http://people.ubuntu.com/~alanbell/file.conf and you need to edit /etc/speech-dispatcher/speechd.conf to add AddModule "file"  "sd_generic" "file.conf"
<greyback> AlanBell: magic, thanks
<AlanBell> "echo $DATA>>/tmp/orca.out" is the bit that does the magic
<mmrazik> (btw we are on #ubuntu-testing for post-discussions :-))
<Daviey> .. meeting starting shortly.
<Daviey> (server)
<Daviey> Chair isn't here.. /me drives
<Daviey> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Tue Jan 24 16:03:02 2012 UTC.  The chair is Daviey. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/AlanBell/mootbot.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
<Daviey> AlanBell: is the bot poorly?
<Daviey> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Daviey: Error: Can't start another meeting, one is in progress.
<mmrazik> #endmeeting
<Daviey> O_o
<Daviey> o/
<arosales> Hello
<mmrazik> sorry.  Just thought I didn't finish my meeting.
<hggdh> ~Ã´~
<Daviey> Who is here for the ubuntu server meeting?
<adam_g> o/
<arosales> o/
<utlemming> o/
<zul> hi
 * smb moves into the shadows
<rbasak> o/
<Daviey> #topic Review ACTION points from previous meeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Review ACTION points from previous meeting
<jamespage> o/
<Daviey> Discuss merge of Open Discussion with Community update topics
<SpamapS> Sorry for my lateness.. as usual, 1600 UTC is not doable for me.
<SpamapS> but 1605 is :p
<Daviey> Sounds like a no-brainer for me, any objections?
<utlemming> +1
<Daviey> #agreed merge of Open Discussion with Community update topics
<SpamapS> :)
<Daviey> #agree merge of Open Discussion with Community update topics
<Daviey> #topic Precise Development
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Precise Development
<Daviey> Anyone else want to drive this?
<Daviey> okay..
<Daviey> Current Bugs pertinent to Precise Server release that we are working on http://status.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/ubuntu-server/release-bugs.html
<Daviey> bug 883988
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 883988 in glance (Ubuntu Precise) "db migration failing when upgrading glance - trying to create existing tables" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/883988
<Daviey> adam_g: you wre following this?
<adam_g> Daviey: yeah, targetted toward next essex milestone
<Daviey> adam_g: looking on track?
<adam_g> Daviey: honestly not sure anyone has touched it upstream but a fix has been discussed
<Daviey> bug 893926 , assigned to mainerror who isn't here.  I'll follow up with him shortly.
<Daviey> bug 911812, roaksoax ?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 893926 in eucalyptus (Ubuntu) "Contains traces of UEC" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/893926
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 911812 in facter (Ubuntu Precise) "processor fact does not handle arm, others" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/911812
<Daviey> adam_g: thanks, can you follow that up?
<adam_g> Daviey: the glance bug? yes, ill ping jay this week to find out his thoughts
<Daviey> rocking
<SpamapS> Daviey: shouldn't we also be going over the WI tracker, since FF is coming soon?
<Daviey> SpamapS: yes, but lets get the bugs done
<Daviey> roaksoax: are you here?
<Daviey> bug 913009, smoser is /away.. I believe it is still untouched, pending new upstream snapshot
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 913009 in bacula (Ubuntu) "package bacula-common-mysql (not installed) failed to install/upgrade: trying to overwrite '/usr/lib/bacula/libbaccats.la', which is also in package bacula-common 5.2.1-0ubuntu2" [High,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/913009
<Daviey> bug 916992, adam_g ?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 916992 in nova (Ubuntu) "Database migration v064 fails against MySQL 5.5 + InnoDB" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/916992
<adam_g> Daviey: patch merged upstream, should be fix released in ubuntu next snapshot (fri)
<Daviey> SpamapS: following bug 914392 ?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 914392 in juju (Ubuntu) "LXC local provider does not respect 'series' (only installs oneiric)" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/914392
<Daviey> adam_g: great!
<Daviey> new bug 920202, up for grabs!
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 920202 in bind9 (Ubuntu Precise) "bind9 fails to start on precise after clean install" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/920202
<Daviey> anyone want it?
<SpamapS> Daviey: I am aware of 914392 but I have not been following up on it. I think the fix is fairly trivial, so perhaps I can patch it myself.
<adam_g> Daviey: ill poke at it
<Daviey> adam_g: you rock star!
<zul> Daviey: i would poke lamont
<Daviey> SpamapS: great news, do you want to take ownership
<Daviey> zul: good thinking
<Daviey> bug 875262 , SpamapS were you working with koolhead17 ?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 875262 in php5 (Ubuntu Oneiric) "PHP Startup: Unable to load dynamic library '/usr/lib/php5/20090626+lfs/sqlite.so'" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/875262
<Daviey> smb: has bug 607039 moved?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 607039 in nfs-utils (Ubuntu) "NFS4 automount using replicated servers doesn't work" [Medium,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/607039
<smb> Daviey, errr not really
<Daviey> zul: bug 890362 ?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 890362 in nova (Ubuntu) "Should user's shell be /bin/false?" [Medium,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/890362
<zul> Daviey: will be addressed this week
<Daviey> bug 898840 .. roaksoax  seems absent, but i think it is blocked.
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 898840 in cobbler (Ubuntu) "'default' preseed should be enlister" [Medium,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/898840
<rbasak> SpamapS: re: bug 914392, I've just s/oneiric/precise/ as a workaround and it seems to be ok. Not fully tested thisi though.
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 914392 in juju (Ubuntu) "LXC local provider does not respect 'series' (only installs oneiric)" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/914392
<Daviey> smb: Is there a path forward?
<SpamapS> rbasak: right, but its a fairly important bug. ;)
<Daviey> bug 904681, assigned to a slacker.. He hasn't touched it, but will do today/tomorrow.
<rbasak> yes :)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 904681 in Ubuntu "precise amd64 minimal-virtual install is oversized" [Medium,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/904681
<smb> Daviey, If I had seen this before I may have an answer
<SpamapS> Daviey: I will take bug 912716
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 912716 in apache2 (Ubuntu) "[improvement] allow graceful-stop via the init.d script" [Wishlist,Incomplete] https://launchpad.net/bugs/912716
<Daviey> smb: Oh, sorry - i thought you were tracking that one?
<smb> Daviey, Not that I can recall
<Daviey> SpamapS: I think hggdh tentively had that one, awaiting triage/confirm
<smb> ... though that may mean nothing
<hggdh> this has been fixed since Maverick (by a zul patch!)
<Daviey> smb: oh, ok - sorry.
<smb> Daviey, Maybe SpamapS ?
<Daviey> heh
<hggdh> I am just waiting on the OP to clarify before closing
<SpamapS> Daviey: yeah, it is the same bug, but the original bug wasn't actually fixed
<Daviey> smb: I see you were on it in Nov. Are you wanting to continue on it?
<lamont> Daviey: bah.  I'll look into that today
<lamont> 920202 that is
<smb> Daviey, About what do we talk exactly..?
<Daviey> SpamapS: Sorry, i might have moved too fast.. but did you see me ask about the php bug? ^^
<Daviey> lamont: \o/
<Daviey> (lamont, there seems to bea  Debian bug aswell fwiw)
<lamont> Daviey: that's because I'm consistent.
<Daviey> smb: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/autofs5/+bug/607039/comments/19
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 607039 in nfs-utils (Ubuntu) "NFS4 automount using replicated servers doesn't work" [Medium,New]
<Daviey> lamont: heh
<smb> Daviey, Ah, yes. I may sure
<Daviey> zul: bug 906654 ?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 906654 in nova (Ubuntu) "nova should depend on openstackx and load appropriate osapi_extensions by default" [Medium,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/906654
<SpamapS> Daviey: the PHP bug is just an obsolete conffile that postinst should be removing.
<zul> Daviey: i think openstackx might actually merged into nova proper, but other than that im still waiting for the MIR
<Daviey> SpamapS: any closer to getting fix0rd?
<Daviey> zul: which MIR ?
<zul> Daviey: horizon
<Daviey> ah, cool
<Daviey> bug 907197, zul ?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 907197 in nova (Ubuntu) "ip address can't be injected into the instance when using lxc " [Medium,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/907197
<zul> need to reproduce first..
<Daviey> zul: that would seem pretty bad if it is valid.. :/
<SpamapS> Daviey: no, somebody needs to take the action suggested by slangasek in comment #16.
<Daviey> zul: will you be able to reproduce this week?
<zul> Daviey: i can try it this afternoon
<Daviey> SpamapS: Right, i thought you were working with koolhead17 to resolve that?
<SpamapS> Daviey: have not heard from koolhead on it. Will ping him.
<Daviey> s/i\ thought//
<Daviey> SpamapS: rocking!
<Daviey> bug 914257, adam_g
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 914257 in horizon (Ubuntu) "local_settings.py isn't installed as a config file" [Medium,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/914257
<Daviey> adam_g: should that be Fix Committed?
<adam_g> Daviey: will get to that in the next day or two
<Daviey> adam_g: looks like it's fixed in bzr?
<Daviey> bug 879666, rbasak
<adam_g> Daviey: unfortunately, no
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 879666 in nova (Ubuntu Precise) "chown error for console.fifo when launching vm" [Medium,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/879666
<zul> Daviey: it has different side affects
<adam_g> Daviey: the local_settings.py that was shipping before is no longer, so i propose we ship our own basedoff the example. ill ping zul about thi later this AM
<Daviey> adam_g & zul: http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-server-dev/horizon/essex/revision/22 ?
<rbasak> I hadn't seen your comment. I'll update the debdiff for precise.
<adam_g> Daviey: no, that doesn't fix the bug and not sure why it was merged as such. local_settings.py is no longer part of the package, and is not installed.
<adam_g> Daviey: and, if it was, the django app doesn't import it from /etc/openstack-dashboard
<Daviey> lynxman: bug 916489 ?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 916489 in ipxe (Ubuntu) "grub-ipxe says "B: command not found"" [Medium,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/916489
<Daviey> (lnxman awaiting update to merge proposal)
<Daviey> Okay, shall we move on?
<Daviey> http://status.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-precise/group/topic-precise-servercloud-infrastructure-deployment.html
<Daviey> We seem to be making reasonably good progress.
<Daviey> https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/servercloud-p-cloud-power-management is of concern.
<Daviey> roaksoax: when you read this, can you follow up with aquette ?
<Daviey> jjohansen: What is the status of https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/security-p-apparmor-containers ?
<roaksoax> Daviey: will do
<Daviey> jdstrand: ^^, is it looking ok?
<Daviey> https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/servercloud-p-arm-service-orchestration ... will be flushed today, with some changes.
<Daviey> SpamapS: how is, https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/servercloud-p-juju-charm-testing looking ?
<SpamapS> Daviey: spec should land on the juju mailing list today, which should give way to the others falling rather rapidly
<jdstrand> Daviey: jjohansen is continuing to work hard on this. it is an essential bp which we are committed to delivering
<jdstrand> Daviey: he has made significant progress, but it hasn't landed yet
<Daviey> https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/servercloud-p-ceph .. is looking a concern.
<SpamapS> Daviey: yeah, about half of that is going to have to be postponed
<Daviey> arosales: are you able to dig into servercloud-p-ceph ?
<Daviey> SpamapS: \o/, GREAT news
<Daviey> nice one.
<SpamapS> Daviey: it should hit main, it should have a MIR, but other than that, I don't think we're going to get much further with it
<Daviey> roaksoax: https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/servercloud-p-powernap ?
<Daviey> https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/servercloud-p-virtio-device-driver , is blocked on some non-Ubuntu issues.
<Daviey> jdstrand: thanks for the update!
<roaksoax> Daviey: well... haven't yet work on it furhter as I've been more concentrated into the cobb;er/orchestra/and now with the new stuff might gonna have to postpone work items
<Daviey> arosales: https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/servercloud-p-glusterfs-mir .. seems a MIR hasn't yet been raised.. that can be marked done when resolved.
<Daviey> https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/servercloud-p-openstack-testing jamespage / adam_g ?
<adam_g> Daviey: should be marking a couple of those DONE this week
<Daviey> SpamapS: Ceph in main?
<SpamapS> Daviey: Yes, since we're going to turn on qemu's ceph RBD support
<Daviey> rbasak: https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/servercloud-p-arm-service-orchestration anything blocking?
<Daviey> adam_g: https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/servercloud-p-openstack-charms how is it looking?
<rbasak> nope, just hitting more issues though. another bug to file outstanding
<Daviey> lynxman, still not here? https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/servercloud-p-cfjuju
<rbasak> I've been slowed massively by a kernel regression but a fix is on its way
<arosales> Daviey:  re: servercloud-p-glusterfs-mir: yup, SpamapS was also going to look in to that one, not anticipating a lot of work to complete the work item.
<Daviey> rbasak / adam_g: please comment so we can move on.
<adam_g> Daviey: looking okay, have some of those chamrs ready for merge into charm store currently
<Daviey> !ping
<ubottu> another contentless ping... sigh...
<Daviey> Am i here?
<smb> Daviey, Which one of you?
<Daviey> (there seems to be lag going on?)
<smb> Hm, did not see any lag here but it is quite quiet
<rbasak> who is still here?
<rbasak> o/
<jamespage> o/
<smb> \o
<adam_g> o/
<Daviey> bug 1
<hggdh> ~Ã´~
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1 in Ubuntu "Microsoft has a majority market share" [Critical,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1
<arosales> o/
<utlemming> o/
 * rbasak doesn't see any lag
<smb> He is connected
<Daviey> roaksoax: Okay, shall we discuss it out of band?
<SpamapS> o/
 * SpamapS had "alt-tab" induced lag
<roaksoax> Daviey: sure
<Daviey> GREAT adam_g
<Daviey> #topic Ubuntu Server Team Events
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Server Team Events
<Daviey> FOSDEM next weekend, expect to see - jamespage, rbasak and Daviey
<Daviey> Other events?
<arosales> Daviey, had some pretty good interest in Juju and Server at SCALE10x this past weekend.
<Daviey> SpamapS: ok, thanks
<arosales> SpamapS: and jcastro gave a charmschool and talk @SCALE 10x
<SpamapS> Nothing in the immediate horizon though.
<Daviey> #topic Weekly Updates & Questions for the QA Team (hggdh)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Weekly Updates & Questions for the QA Team (hggdh)
<Daviey> Problem solved... sorry!
<hggdh> no news from me, life seems to be kludging along on the QA/server front ;-)
<hggdh> ..
<Daviey> ok, thanks
<Daviey> #topic Weekly Updates & Questions for the Kernel Team (smb)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Weekly Updates & Questions for the Kernel Team (smb)
<smb> Still working on getting cobbler up locally which is not as simple as I thought
<Daviey> smb: do you want some pointers?
<smb> Am able to pxeboot real and virtual machines in some way
<smb> Daviey, Always appreciated
<Daviey> smb: roaksoax, smoser, myself etc are always willing to jump in.... always feel free to ask in #ubuntu-serber
<Daviey> err, server
<Daviey> thanks smb
<Daviey> #topic Weekly Updates & Questions regarding Ubuntu ARM Server (rbasak)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Weekly Updates & Questions regarding Ubuntu ARM Server (rbasak)
<rbasak> I have one openmpi question
<rbasak> bug 889644
<rbasak> With janimo's help I now have a version that builds on arm, and Debian have already taken it - their 1.5 is in experimental. But I'm worried about syncing this because it would pull the general archive version up from 1.4 to 1.5, and I don't know what other dependencies might break. There do seem to be a pile of rdepends. What exactly is the functionality/use case that we need to add, how would I verify existing functionality is not broken determ
<rbasak> ine that what we need to add works? Or should I just get 1.5 synced and worry about what breaks later?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 889644 in openmpi (Ubuntu) "Please update OpenMPI to the 1.5 upstream version" [Wishlist,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/889644
<rbasak> Other than that ARM work is chugging away. I'm still hitting bugs trying to get juju to work, but am slowly making progress
<Daviey> rbasak: I don't thnk anyone here has touched openmpi before, but i agree it does have plenty of rdepends.
<Daviey> rbasak: lets take that offline...
<rbasak> ok
<Daviey> #topic Weekly Updates & Questions from the Ubuntu Community and Open Discussion
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Weekly Updates & Questions from the Ubuntu Community and Open Discussion
<Daviey> ^^ note, new topic
<Daviey> Firstly, sorry for my laggy connection.. I had some woes :/
<arosales> Any objections from the server team from removing mysql-cluster-7.0 from universe?  It hasn't gotten any updates since September, no new upstream source since January 2011, and its not in Debian. It has a bunch of security vulnerabilities (with little/no upstream support from oracle) that will make maintaining it a large effort.
<Daviey> anything from anyone?
<Daviey> arosales: Sounds like a +1 from me, i don't think it had a high userbase anyway.
<arosales> jdstrand had brought this up yesterday, and I wanted to check with the team
<Daviey> Would be good to see it in Debian tho!
<arosales> ok, I'll let jdstrand know this can be  removed from Universe
<Daviey> moving on.... ?
<Daviey> #topic Announce next meeting date and time
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Announce next meeting date and time
<Daviey> same time, same place.. have fun..
<Daviey> thanks for coming.
<Daviey> o/
<Daviey> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Tue Jan 24 16:59:14 2012 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-01-24-16.03.moin.txt
<apw> o/
<jsalisbury> Roll Call for Ubuntu Kernel Weekly Status Meeting
<smb> \o
<herton> o/
<smb> (still)
<tgardner> o/
<bjf> o/
<ogasawara> o/
<sforshee> o/
<jsalisbury> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Tue Jan 24 17:00:20 2012 UTC.  The chair is jsalisbury. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/AlanBell/mootbot.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
<jsalisbury> ##
<jsalisbury> ## This is the Ubuntu Kernel Team weekly status meeting.
<jsalisbury> ##
<jsalisbury> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/Meeting
<jsalisbury> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/ReleaseStatus/Precise
<jsalisbury> # Meeting Etiquette
<jsalisbury> #
<jsalisbury> # NOTE: '..' indicates that you are finished with your input.
<jsalisbury> #       'o/' indicates you have something to add (please wait until you are recognized)
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] ARM Status (ppisati)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: ARM Status (ppisati)
<ppisati> Nothing new to report this week.
<ppisati> ..
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] Release Metrics and Incoming Bugs (jsalisbury)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Release Metrics and Incoming Bugs (jsalisbury)
<jsalisbury> Release metrics and incomming bug data can be reviewed at the following link:
<jsalisbury> [LINK] http://people.canonical.com/~kernel/reports/kt-meeting.txt
<jsalisbury> ..
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] Milestone Targeted Work Items (ogasawara)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Milestone Targeted Work Items (ogasawara)
<ogasawara> [LINK] http://status.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-precise/canonical-kernel-distro-team-precise-alpha-2.html
<ogasawara> || apw        || hardware-p-kernel-boot                || 1 work item  ||
<ogasawara> ||            || hardware-p-kernel-config-review       || 4 work items ||
<ogasawara> ||            || hardware-p-kernel-delta-review        || 3 work items ||
<ogasawara> ||            || foundations-p-ipv6                    || 1 work item  ||
<ogasawara> || jsalisbury || other-p-bug-workflows                 || 1 work item  ||
<ogasawara> || ogasawara  || hardware-p-kernel-config-review       || 3 work items ||
<ogasawara> || tgardner   || hardware-p-kernel-delta-review        || 1 work item  ||
<ogasawara> If your name is in the above table, please review your Alpha-2 work items.  Note that Alpha-2 is next Thurs Feb 2.
<ogasawara> ..
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] Blueprint: hardware-p-kernel-power-management (cking)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Blueprint: hardware-p-kernel-power-management (cking)
<cking> no updates this week
<cking> ..
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] Status: Precise Development Kernel (ogasawara)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Status: Precise Development Kernel (ogasawara)
<ogasawara> Last week we uploaded the linux-3.2.0-10.17 Ubuntu kernel and we have
<ogasawara> also just uploaded linux-3.2.0-10.18.  With Alpha-2 next Thurs, Feb 2,
<ogasawara> I'd ideally like to upload our final kernel for the Alpha-2 milestone by
<ogasawara> this Friday.  For any patches needing to land in Alpha-2, send them out
<ogasawara> to the kernel-team mailing list immediately.
<ogasawara> Important Upcoming Dates:
<ogasawara>  * Thurs Feb 2 - Alpha 2 (~1 week)
<ogasawara> ..
<ogasawara> ~
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] Status: CVE's (apw)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Status: CVE's (apw)
<apw> === CVE Metrics ===
<apw>  
<apw> [LINK] http://people.canonical.com/~kernel/cve/pkg/CVE-linux.txt
<apw>  
<apw> Currently open CVEs for each supported branch:
<apw>  
<apw> || Package                                  || Open      ||
<apw> ||                                          ||           ||
<apw> || linux Hardy                              ||   17 (-3) ||
<apw> || linux Lucid                              ||   12      ||
<apw> || linux Maverick                           ||   11 (-2) ||
<apw> || linux Natty                              ||   10 (-3) ||
<apw> || linux Oneiric                            ||    9      ||
<apw> || linux Precise                            ||    7      ||
<apw> || linux-ec2 Lucid                          ||   12      ||
<apw> || linux-fsl-imx51 Lucid                    ||   11 (-4) ||
<apw> || linux-mvl-dove Lucid                     ||    9 (-2) ||
<apw> || linux-mvl-dove Maverick                  ||    9 (-2) ||
<apw> || linux-ti-omap4 Maverick                  ||   12 (-4) ||
<apw> || linux-ti-omap4 Natty                     ||    7 (-5) ||
<apw> || linux-ti-omap4 Oneiric                   ||    6 (-2) ||
<apw> || linux-ti-omap4 Precise                   ||    5 (-2) ||
<apw> || linux-lts-backport-maverick Lucid        ||   11 (-2) ||
<apw> || linux-lts-backport-natty Lucid           ||   10 (-3) ||
<apw> || linux-lts-backport-oneiric Lucid         ||    9      ||
<apw>  
<apw> This week two new CVEs were added both of which were closed out.
<apw> Overall we have made some progress in closing the outstanding backlog.
<apw>  
<apw> ..
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] Status: Stable, Security, and Bugfix Kernel Updates - Oneiric/Natty/Maverick/Lucid/Hardy (bjf/herton)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Status: Stable, Security, and Bugfix Kernel Updates - Oneiric/Natty/Maverick/Lucid/Hardy (bjf/herton)
<bjf> Here is the status for the main kernels, until today (Jan. 24):
<bjf>  
<bjf>  * Hardy - 2.6.24-30.98
<bjf>   * In updates.
<bjf>   * Nothing new to prep, there were no new commits on master-next.
<bjf>  
<bjf>  * Lucid - 2.6.32-38.84
<bjf>   * Prep'd and uploaded.
<bjf>  
<bjf>  * Maverick - 2.6.35-32.65
<bjf>   * Prep'd and uploaded.
<bjf>  
<bjf>  * Natty - 2.6.38-13.55
<bjf>   * Prep'd and uploaded.
<bjf>  
<bjf>  * Oneiric - 3.0.0-16.27
<bjf>   * Prep'd and uploaded.
<bjf>  
<bjf> Current opened tracking bugs details:
<bjf>  * http://people.canonical.com/~kernel/reports/kernel-sru-workflow.html
<bjf>  
<bjf> For SRUs, SRU report is a good source of information:
<bjf>  * http://people.canonical.com/~kernel/reports/sru-report.html
<bjf>  
<bjf> Future stable cadence cycles:
<bjf>  * https://wiki.ubuntu.com/PrecisePangolin/ReleaseInterlock
<bjf> ..
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] Open Discussion or Questions? Raise your hand to be recognized (o/)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Open Discussion or Questions? Raise your hand to be recognized (o/)
<jsalisbury> If no questions/discussions, then:
<jsalisbury> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Tue Jan 24 17:07:29 2012 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-01-24-17.00.moin.txt
<jsalisbury> thanks everyone
#ubuntu-meeting 2012-01-25
<cjwatson> hi folks
<ev> hi
<barry> howdy
<bdmurray_> hi
<cjwatson> slangasek's feeling a bit off today and asked if I could run the meeting
<cjwatson> sorry I missed most of the mumble call - my connection seems bouncy today
<cjwatson> so if I drop off, somebody else take over? :)
<cjwatson> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Wed Jan 25 16:01:38 2012 UTC.  The chair is cjwatson. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/AlanBell/mootbot.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
<cjwatson> #topic Lightning round
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Lightning round
<cjwatson> $ echo $(shuf -e cjwatson barry doko stgraber jodh ev bdmurray slangasek)
<cjwatson> stgraber slangasek barry bdmurray cjwatson doko ev jodh
 * stgraber waves
<stgraber> - Testing tracker
<stgraber>  - Helped bdmurray put in production the updated lp-integration script for the ISO tracker
<stgraber> - Networking
<stgraber>  - Uploaded the SRU for bug 876829
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 876829 in ifupdown (Ubuntu Precise) "Oneiric's ifupdown breaks ip aliases" [High,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/876829
<stgraber>  - Uploaded new ifupdown with some more label fixes and NetworkManager integration fix to Precise
<stgraber>  - Updated vlan and bridge-utils to better deal with ifupdown checking their return code
<stgraber>  - Found and fixed another race condition in ifenslave-2.6 (/sys/class/net/bonding_masters only appear 0.5s after the kernel module is loaded)
<stgraber>  - Got to test some configs from comments on my blog that were even weirder than my weirdest one, so far everything works!
<stgraber>  - Uploaded SRU for vlan, bridge-utils and ifenslave-2.6 to Oneiric
<stgraber>  - Reviewed dhclient-script for resolvconf integration. Current resolvconf dhclient hook overrides the functions from dhclient-script, a bit ugly but it works.
<stgraber>  - Filed MIR for resolvconf and poked server team to run some tests before we turn it on for everyone. (bug 921135)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 921135 in resolvconf (Ubuntu) "[MIR] resolvconf" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/921135
<stgraber> - ARB
<stgraber>  - Finished packaging, reviewing and uploading unity-lens-sshsearch to extras.u.c
<stgraber>  - Some more discussion on what should be moved to the commercial process and how to deal with the backlog
<stgraber> - Friendly Recovery
<stgraber>  - Started working on the upstart job, starting setvtrgb, mounting /run and starting udev
<stgraber> - TPM
<stgraber>  - Tested the new opencryptoki, trousers and tpm-tools from my PPA, no luck so far, will need to test with Natty again.
<stgraber>  - Will do a TPM reset and some more tests next time I have to reboot my laptop (I used to say next time it crashes, but that didn't happen yet in Precise)
<stgraber> - Other
<stgraber>  - Created rfkill-store/rfkill-restore jobs to save the RF kill switch soft state across reboots.
<stgraber>  - Rebased Edubuntu's LTSP ubiquity plugin on what we did last cycle with ltsp-live.
<stgraber>  - Tried to port edubuntu-artwork to gsettings only to notice Ubuntu still ships some default gconf settings, so ended up having edubuntu-artwork ship both gsettings and gconf...
<stgraber>  - Fixed handling of /etc/lightdm/unity-greeter.conf in edubuntu-artwork which is a conffile that was being altered by edubuntu-artwork (bad!), moved to using dpkg-divert + symlink to another conffile (ugly but works)
<stgraber> - TODO
<stgraber>  - Some more bugfixes for the ISO tracker and trying to get the user subscription page back for alpha-2
<stgraber>  - Continue working on network SRUs, friendly-recovery and TPM
<stgraber> (done)
<slangasek> sorry, count me out - heading off to have a lie-down
<barry> feedparser 5.1 for python 3 uploaded & submitted to debian; python-defer sync'd from debian for py 3 support; python-keyring for py3. wrote blog on debian packaging for py2/py3. some work on flufl.* package for DM application and learning more about dual py2/py3 support. helped ubuntuone folks with some weird dbus-python issues.  pyqt for python 3 reviewed and (almost) uploaded (a few linitian warnings need fixing).  reviewed packaging
<barry> branch for multitouch team. did an interview and filled out travel expenses. dbus-python 1.0.0 released upstream and into debian - has py3 support!  will look at sync'ing to ubuntu.  done.
<cjwatson> slangasek: GWS
<slangasek> thx
<bdmurray> bug triage of iso-testing bug reports
<bdmurray> bug triage of ubuntu-installer bug reports
<bdmurray> updated update-manager apport hook to not double gzip attachments
<bdmurray> bug bot modification to deal with corrupted packages where dpkgterminallog is in the bug description
<bdmurray> fixed bug gravity in python-launchpad-lib toolkit
<bdmurray> added package bugs gravity code to ubuntu-reports
<bdmurray> worked with jsalisbury regarding writing bug patterns
<bdmurray> with stgraber improvements to ubuntu-qa-website's lp integration so that bugs are commented on
<bdmurray> team-recent-bug-packages-json.py imporvements to collect apport- tagged bug counts
<bdmurray> team-recent-bug-packages graphing work to display apport- counts of bugs
<bdmurray> â
<bdmurray> investigation into initramfs-tools install script errors and persistent media
<bdmurray> call with qa team regarding reports web page
<cjwatson> Fixed gnome-games and libwmf upgrade bugs.
<cjwatson> Tried to learn how to track down upgrade failures from Jenkins, not to very much avail so far.
<cjwatson> Fixed ResourceWarning from lsb_release with Python 3.2.
<cjwatson> grub2 SRU for lucid (bug 563895, bug 623609).
<cjwatson> partman-iscsi/kickseed SRUs for lucid/maverick/natty (bug 810068).
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 563895 in grub2 (Ubuntu Lucid) "grub2 fails to boot or install when an LVM snapshot exists" [High,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/563895
<cjwatson> Switched Ubuntu Studio to a live DVD.
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 623609 in grub2 (Ubuntu Lucid) "grub-pc needs some help in uec instances" [Medium,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/623609
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 810068 in partman-iscsi (Ubuntu Natty) "kickstart iscsi option broken" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/810068
<cjwatson> Finished python-debian port to Python 3.  Pending upstream review.
<cjwatson> Removed lots of packages that had been removed from Debian.  A few uploads/syncs to get other packages in line with that.
<cjwatson> Merged debhelper, to ensure that Build-Depends: debhelper (>= 9) will work in precise.
<cjwatson> Fixed almost all of the ocamlopt stack on armhf.  Many fewer build failures now.  A few packages starting from coq are still broken.
<cjwatson> Fixed xcp-storage-managers for Python 2.7.
<cjwatson> Switched gnutls-bin and gnutls-doc back to being built from gnutls26 rather than gnutls28.
<cjwatson> Fixed libgtkdatabox, kluppe, and vcdimager build failure.  Various syncs for other failures.
<cjwatson> ..
<cjwatson> doko:
<cjwatson> ev: I guess doko isn't around?  go ahead
<ev> - Prepared and uploaded Whoopsie 0.1.3 to precise. Followed up on the MIR bug,
<ev>   explaining that Whoopsie is now ready for the security review.
<ev> - Setting up a Windows 7 VM with the Chromium Embedded Framework, so that we
<ev>   can build something for the agency to test the new slideshow work with.
<ev> - Meeting with Christian to discuss the slideshow plans.
<ev>   - We'll instruct the agency to keep the slideshow under 1 MB.
<ev>   - Christian will look into seeing just how many of the Ubuntu fonts we need,
<ev>     and then we'll make a determination if we have room to embed them in Wubi.
<ev>   - I've provided Christian with a means to test the slideshow on Ubuntu
<ev>     (WebKitGtk sample browser), and Windows (Chromium Embedded Framework
<ev>     sample browser).
<ev>   - I will look at the WebKitGtk DOM API, to see what our best option is for
<ev>     bidirectional communication with the view.
<ev> - Write the system UUID to the UserOOPS ColumnFamily.
<ev> - Meeting with James to further discuss what hardware we need and its
<ev>   configuration. He's committed to a week for the initial deployment.
<ev> - James pointed out that we don't need the CAP_FOWNER stuff (ignoring +t on
<ev>   just /var/crash), if we simply keep track of the crashes we've processed
<ev>   with a .uploaded file. Changed the code to do just this.
<ev> - Get rid of the intermediary processing step to figure out which architecture
<ev>   queue to put a core dump on by having the client pass it as a parameter
<ev>   instead.
<ev> - Investigation around wiring StacktraceAddressSignature into all of this.
<ev> - Mail to Martin and Matthew about reviewing the proposed UI changes to
<ev>   apport, as well as an overview of the process around submitting a new crash
<ev>   and core dump.
<ev> - Fighting apport-retrace, only to find out via pitti that I was working on a
<ev>   crash report without a Package field and out of date enough to fail
<ev>   retracing.
<ev> - Work on tying together the remaining retracing pieces.
<ev> - Started work on defining a schema for the relationship between
<ev>   StackAddressSignatures, stack traces and their hashes, and the bucketing
<ev>   system that will eventually come into play.
<ev> - Research into bidirectional communication with a WebKit view, in support of
<ev>   the new installer slideshow.  Sending things through the title element is
<ev>   still sadly the only game in town, even in WebKit 1.7/1.8.
<ev> - Created a small sample application demonstrating this to Christian.
<ev> (done)
<jodh> Finished fix for bug 912558, which required additional work to handle
<jodh> respawn jobs. Extensively tested. Finished first part of script to
<jodh> auto-gen test confs but this can't be run (yet) due to the sheer number
<jodh> of jobs it's creating (~4,200). Lots of #upstart interaction this week.
<jodh> Currently investigating an odd behavioural issue with
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 912558 in upstart (Ubuntu Precise) "log.c Assert failed - err=>number == EIO" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/912558
<jodh> getty/Upstart/cttys with cjwatson which we need to understand wrt
<jodh> the Upstart logger semantics.
<jodh> â
<cjwatson> #topic Alpha 2
<cjwatson> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bugs?field.milestone%3Alist=44326
<doko> sorry, was still installing G+
<cjwatson> ah
<cjwatson> #topic Lightning round
<cjwatson> doko: go ahead
<doko> - didn't do much which I wanted to do this week ...
<doko> - gcc-4.7 packaging updates (libstdc++ split) in preparation for the 4.7 test rebuild
<doko> - gdb-7.4 release
<doko> - binutils upload, ARM backport from trunk
<doko> - gcc-4.6 update and Linaro merge
<doko> - openjdk-6 update in preparation of the icedtea-1.11 release, still some packaging things to do
<doko> - push some gcc patches upstream
<doko> - interviews
<doko> - eglibc-2.15 updates, available in the ubuntu-toolchain-r/glibc ppa
<doko> done
<cjwatson> you and me both :-/
<cjwatson> #topic Alpha 2
<cjwatson> I'd like to quickly go over the milestoned bugs that are/should be assigned to us and make sure they're on track
<cjwatson> or if they should be deferred
<cjwatson> bug 850264 is now in Debian experimental and I'm told it's making progress
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 850264 in apt (Ubuntu Precise) "given a foreign architecture of i386 on amd64 machine, and an outdated libc, apt tries to remove libc-bin" [High,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/850264
<cjwatson> bug 869239 - anyone?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 869239 in ubiquity (Ubuntu Precise) "webcam screen should be resized for netbooks (Eee PC, 10")" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/869239
<cjwatson> escalation from vmware
<cjwatson> I can probably take it if nobody else does
<stgraber> cjwatson: I can have a look, when do we want that one fixed? (unlikely to find the time before alpha-2)
<ev> vmware? That's an odd request for them to make.
<cjwatson> alpha-2, I think - I'll take care of it and swap you for something else :)
<cjwatson> ev: so says the bug
<stgraber> cjwatson: ok :)
<cjwatson> ev: apparently the default vmware screen size is 800x600
<cjwatson> bug 874727 - assigned to bdmurray?
<ev> ah, interesting
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 874727 in apport (Ubuntu Precise) "media error bug report blocking is incomplete" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/874727
<stgraber> do we support the 800 part of that resolution? I seem to remember the minimum for Ubuntu being 1024x600 (netbook resolution)
<ev> yeah, fitting in 800x600 is going to be really trickty
<cjwatson> apparently the webcam screen is the first bit that goes wrong so we'll see
<ev> tricky even
<cjwatson> (one moment, being called away)
<bdmurray> cjwatson: I'll look at or update it appropriately
<cjwatson> bug 879434 - does this mir need to be resolved for a2?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 879434 in liboggz (Ubuntu Precise) "[MIR] mutagen introduces b-d's on faad2 and liboggz" [High,Incomplete] https://launchpad.net/bugs/879434
<cjwatson> bug 905754 - ev, have you had any chance to look at the mail I sent about this before Christmas?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 905754 in ubiquity (Ubuntu Precise) "Israel is not on the installer map" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/905754
<cjwatson> I'm stalled on it at this point
<ev> ah, not in depth
<ev> apols, I came back and panicked over getting caught up on the crash db work
<ev> looking now
<cjwatson> bug 907113 - doko, is it urgent to remove libjpeg8 source for a2 or is it just "let's not forget"?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 907113 in libjpeg8 (Ubuntu) "MIR for libjpeg-turbo" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/907113
<doko> the latter
<doko> yeah, I'll take care of that
<cjwatson> ok
<cjwatson> bug 912558 I know is in progress
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 912558 in upstart (Ubuntu Precise) "log.c Assert failed - err=>number == EIO" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/912558
<ev> it's supposed to cycle through on multiple clicks
<ev> but perhaps we should widen the area that's considered a second click
<cjwatson> ev: I couldn't make it do that at all
<ev> and provide some visual indication that this is possible
<cjwatson> even holding the mouse absolutely stationary
<cjwatson> (possible with a trackpad)
<cjwatson> bug 912563 not really in progress but I have the baton on that for the moment
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 912563 in ubiquity (Ubuntu Precise) "ubiquity crashed with TypeError in partman_column_format: argument of type 'NoneType' is not iterable" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/912563
<ev> maybe that got dropped with the timezone code moving from python to C
 * ev digs
<cjwatson> bug 813837 - stgraber, that's you with your community hat on, right?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 813837 in ltsp (Ubuntu Precise) "ltsp client not able to load boot file: ltsp/amd64.tmp/pxelinux.0" [Medium,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/813837
<stgraber> cjwatson: that's me. Not sure with which hat on as that's only happening when installing from Ubuntu Alternate, we don't use the udeb for Edubuntu
<cjwatson> oh
<cjwatson> bug 861048 is mine, I think shouldn't be too hard at least as far as I've diagnosed so far
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 861048 in grub2 (Ubuntu Precise) "have really quick '_' on boot before first purple screen" [Medium,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/861048
<cjwatson> bug 871726 - stgraber, you reported this so can clearly reproduce it, I don't suppose you might be able to fix it too? :)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 871726 in ubiquity (Ubuntu Precise) "ibus doesn't work from ubiquity-dm" [Medium,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/871726
<cjwatson> and I think that's mostly it for our team, although there are a couple of aptitude bugs in there that it'd be good if somebody could look over
<stgraber> cjwatson: I can certainly find a fix for it, feel free to assign it to me
<cjwatson> done, thanks
<cjwatson> #topic Patch pilot stints
<ev> cjwatson: theory confirmed; the multiple clicks stuff wasn't copied to C
<cjwatson> dholbach asked that people be reminded about doing their patch pilot stints - if you don't know when yours is, ask m
<ev> I'll follow up on the bug
<cjwatson> me
<cjwatson> ev: *nod*, thanks
<cjwatson> #topic AOB
<cjwatson> sorry, bounciness ...
<cjwatson> 16:25 <cjwatson> ev: *nod*, thanks
<cjwatson> 16:25 <cjwatson> #topic AOB
<cjwatson> 16:26 <cjwatson> Rick has asked us to pay more attention to upgrade failures, now that that's one of the major things failing in Jenkins; I'm currently trying to get a reliable way to reproduce them locally, but
<cjwatson>                  I may ask for people to help with this at some point as it's probably more than one person's worth of work
<cjwatson> If you've worked on this in the past (specifically testing upgrades starting from apt-clone metadata), I wouldn't mind a leg-up
<mvo> cjwatson: is the auto-upgrader-tester helping? I currently (in precise) get segfaults from kvm when I run it, but haven't traced it down yet
<cjwatson> I'm trying it with the chroot backend
<mvo> cjwatson: with the latest trunk of u-m it should be possilbe to run "./auto-upgrade-tester /tmp/apt-clone-file" - at least this is what jibel aded recently
<cjwatson> How did you do it when you were investigating upgrade bugs in the past?
<mvo> cjwatson: aha, ok. that did not get that much testing recently, let me have a look
<mvo> cjwatson: I used the kvm backend, that is currently the most reliable (when its not segfaulting at least)
<cjwatson> hm, ok
<mvo> its relatively slow of course
<stgraber> kvm backend works great here (my upgrade testing host is Oneiric though)
<cjwatson> well, I'll see if I can get chroot working and if not fall back
<mvo> stgraber: yeah, oneiric is fine for me too
<mvo> cjwatson: I run a quick test with it now to see what is missing
<mvo> (with chroot)
<cjwatson> it falls over being unable to copy main.log to main_pre_reqs.log or some such - hacking around that
<cjwatson> anyway, thanks, that's enough to be going on with
<cjwatson> anything else?
<cjwatson> ok
<cjwatson> #endmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting ended Wed Jan 25 16:36:17 2012 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-01-25-16.01.moin.txt
<cjwatson> thanks all
<ev> cheers
<barry> thanks!
<jodh> thanks
<stgraber> thanks!
<balloons> afternoon everyone
<kalosaurusrex> morning :)
<balloons> I'll go ahead and get things started
<balloons> #startmeeting Ubuntu QA Team
<meetingology> Meeting started Wed Jan 25 17:01:11 2012 UTC.  The chair is balloons. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/AlanBell/mootbot.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
<balloons> who's all here? and secondly does anyone have any topics not on the agenda they wish to add?
<shrish> am here
<albrigha> o/
<balloons> alright, some folks might trickle in late, we'll continue
<balloons> [TOPIC] Previous Actions
 * gema is here too
<balloons> so, "alourie to feature AutomatedTesting wiki page prominently in wiki"
<phillw> here
<balloons> I don't believe he is here.. I'll go check the wiki and see if any changes were made. If not, we'll push to next week for his update
<balloons> ok, not seeing anything :-) next up is gema's action
<balloons> gema discuss case conductor with mozilla folks and provide update
<gema> balloons: you ended up doing it too x)
<gema> we are going to have a chat with the Mozilla folks on Friday
<gema> see how much of our original reqs they've been able to implement
<gema> so I guess the update will come next week
<balloons> thank you gema, I will roll that action now
<balloons> [action] gema and balloons to provide feedback from mozilla caseconductor meeting
<meetingology> ACTION: gema and balloons to provide feedback from mozilla caseconductor meeting
<balloons> [action] alourie to feature AutomatedTesting wiki page prominently in wiki, based upon list discussion
<meetingology> ACTION: alourie to feature AutomatedTesting wiki page prominently in wiki, based upon list discussion
<balloons> ok, finally the last one was for me
<balloons> balloons to review test cases for i386,x64 and coordinate updates
<balloons> I began looking into the manual test cases and sent out some mails to the list. In addition, I started going thru the tests on the iso tracker, but have not finished getting thru and speaking with others about the tests I found
<balloons> Did anyone else take a look at manual test cases or the iso tests, or have any plans to do so? :-)
 * gema looks to the floor...
<balloons> I *believe* alpha 2 drops next week correct?
<gema> yes
<gema> by drops you mean fails or you mean happens ? :)
<balloons> gema would you mind discussing that a bit after our scheduled agenda?
<balloons> I mean happens :-)
<gema> I hope jibel is around
<gema> he is the one coordinating alpha 2 from our side
<gema> he'll surely send an email later this week asking for collaboration
<balloons> ok, on my action I will roll it over again to next week and try and get some more work done on that front
<gema> ok
<gema> it'd be good for you to run some tests for alpha 2 as well, balloons, to get the feel for it :D
<gema> and feel the pressure of the milestone .. the adrenaline rush, it's quite good
<balloons> [action] balloons to continue test case review and provide updates on progress
<meetingology> ACTION: balloons to continue test case review and provide updates on progress
<balloons> gema, yes I will definitely plan on it
<balloons> ok, let's move on
 * txomon|home arrive
<balloons> [TOPIC] Ubuntu Flavor Updates
<balloons> thanks to ScottK I got the terminology right this week (i hope)
<balloons> let's start with kubuntu -- anyone about?
<ScottK> Sure.
<balloons> anything to share ScottK?
<ScottK> The KDE SC 4.7.4 update I mentioned last week transitioned to oneiric-updates on Monday.
<ScottK> Riddell is working landing KDE SC 4.8.0 for precise as we speak.
<ScottK> So for KDE stuff we should be ~ready for Alpha 2.
<balloons> awesome -- and it releases next week also correct?
<balloons> I mean KDE
<ScottK> 4.8.0 is released today.
<balloons> ohh.. feels early :-)
<balloons> awesome, so alpha 2 will ship with 4.8, great news
<ScottK> The biggest concern for Alpha 2 is we had to skip Alpha 1, so the installer hasn't had a big workout
<ScottK> We have some success reports, so hopefully it's all good.
<ScottK> Tha'ts it.
<balloons> thank you
<balloons> how about xubuntu?
<balloons> I don't see anyone here..
<balloons> let's move on. I know phillw is here -- anything to report from lubuntu?
<phillw> our main issue is bug 918401 which is proving problematical for our Head of Dev to sort out as the proposed fix works on his system but for none of us testers :/
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 918401 in lubuntu-meta (Ubuntu) "Unity-greeter installed by default on Lubuntu, crashing on start" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/918401
<balloons> ohh really?
<phillw> you CAN login, but blindly. Other new bits for precise seem to be behaving.
<phillw> it may be causing a problem with Wubi, but we're not sure. That's all from lubuntu.
<balloons> thank you phillw
<balloons> how about ubuntu studio? astraljava?
<balloons> :-), we'll move on again.. Finally, edubuntu. anyone around?
<balloons> ok, let's change topics then
<balloons> [TOPIC] Blueprint updates / discussion
<balloons> I know I skipped blueprints last week, but I thought I would provide a place if anyone wanted to mention anything specific regarding status or help for a blueprint
<balloons> ok, sounds fine. That ends our scheduled topics.
<balloons> [TOPIC] Other topics
<balloons> We have two additional items to discuss. An update from me, and an update from jibel and gema on alpha 2. does anyone else have any other topics to discuss?
<balloons> if not, we'll begin with my item
<txomon|home> mine is just to mention I contacted cobbler guys
<balloons> ok txomon|home we can discuss it first -- what did you find out
<balloons> ?
<txomon|home> Well, I contacted cobbler guys in their list, and they mentioned that the docs where prepared for the original cobbler project
<txomon|home> And that they spected Orchestra guys could make a doc for the ubuntu version
<balloons> txomon|home, did you speak to Roakasoax?
<txomon|home> He said it  was just a cascade style sheet and some kickstart addons, the documentation they had could be more use full
<txomon|home> balloons, don't know that name...
<balloons> whoops, have an extra a in there
<txomon|home> I expressed badly, I meant that the more changes Orchestra did, the less reliable would be the docs
<balloons> Roaksoax.. regardless, he would be a good person to contact on cobbler, specific to ubuntu
<txomon|home> I can pass you the mail btw
<txomon|home> (to the list)
<txomon|home> oki
<balloons> ok, sounds good
<txomon|home> I will try once more with cobbler
<txomon|home> I did some tests, and If you are using VMs to test, netboot is not necessary
<txomon|home> the most... Useful item is the proxy cachÃ©
<txomon|home> that's everything
<balloons> thank you.. I'm as curious as ever to see what you end up putting together for this..
<balloons> I'll go ahead bext. I am undertaking a point to highlight everyone in ubuntu community who is working on quality, and I wanted to make sure I included some good info and contact info on the different flavor qa teams in addition to ubuntu
<balloons> I will send a message to the list as well, but if someone from each flavor's QA team wished to send along (or better yet, point me to a web page) a couple sentence description of the work and a way of contacting that would be wonderful
<balloons> I trust that makes sense to everyone.. if no one has any questions, we'll get to our last item
<balloons> ok, gema and jibel your up. can you talk a little about alpha 2 and what the qa team has planned?
<gema> balloons: jibel is not around, I think
<gema> next week is alpha2 week and we welcome all the testing everyone can do to help
<gema> watch out for jibel's email
<gema> regarding how to proceed
<gema> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Testing/ISO/Procedures
<gema> here is the explanation on how to help
<gema> that's all from me
<balloons> thank you gema. Ok, that concludes this week's meeting then. thanks for coming everyone!
<balloons> #end meeting
<gema> thank you for chairing, balloons !
<balloons> #endmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting ended Wed Jan 25 17:43:13 2012 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-01-25-17.01.moin.txt
<balloons> yvw
<phillw> thanks for chairing balloons :)
<bdmurray> hi
<dlentz> hi
<bdmurray> Time for the bug squad meeting
<bdmurray> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Wed Jan 25 18:02:52 2012 UTC.  The chair is bdmurray. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/AlanBell/mootbot.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
<bdmurray> [TOPIC] Previous Actions
<bdmurray> #topic Previous Actions
<bdmurray> ACTION: Ursinha to perform SRU verification of bug 904527
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 904527 in rhythmbox (Ubuntu Oneiric) "apport package hook no longer installed" [Medium,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/904527
<bdmurray> This was done and the package is now in -updates
<bdmurray> Thanks Ursinha
<Ursinha> np :)
<bdmurray> That was the only action from last week's meeting
<bdmurray> #topic Engineering Team Bug Status
<bil21al> hello
<bdmurray> bil21al: hi
<bdmurray> Ursinha: do you have anything today?
<Ursinha> bdmurray, no sir... I promise to have something next week
<bdmurray> Ursinha: no problem
<bdmurray> jsalisbury couldn't make it today and said he didn't have much news either
<phil-wong> hi
<bdmurray> I wanted to bring up one "bug" that was fixed in Precise
<bdmurray> bug 914220
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 914220 in apport (Ubuntu) "crash reports with DBus.Error.NoReply should be blacklisted" [Medium,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/914220
<bdmurray> This is about prevent apport from reporting a certain classification of bugs
<bdmurray> Some examples of the bugs that have been reported are found in the apport bug description
<bdmurray> The error message looks like this
<bdmurray> "DBusException: org.freedesktop.DBus.Error.NoReply: Did not receive a reply. Possible causes include: the remote application did not send a reply â¦"
<bdmurray> So this error indicates that a failure to communicate happened between the client and the server
<bdmurray> And we are getting the error from the client which isn't very informative
<bdmurray> What we really want is the error from the server - for example in bug 715523 - what happened to aptdaemon?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 715523 in gnome-codec-install (Ubuntu) "gnome-codec-install crashed with DBusException in _run(): org.freedesktop.DBus.Error.NoReply: Did not receive a reply. Possible causes include: the remote application did not send a reply, the message bus security policy blocked the reply, the reply timeout expired, or the network connection was broken." [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/715523
<bdmurray> The point being there are certainly lots of bug reports with this DBus error message in Launchpad that are likely not useful in their current state.
<Ursinha> interesting
<bdmurray> So I think there is some opportunity for cleanup / investigation into a lot of bug reports there.
<Ursinha> something to do this week: check similar bugs and do a cleanup
<bdmurray> Ursinha: I suspect there are hundreds of these...
<phil-wong> nice to meet you guys, I'm new to the bug squad. I'm sorry if I can't be much help to the meeting right now.
<Ursinha> bdmurray, do you think we could blindly do something about those as they're not useful, as you said?
<bdmurray> phil-wong: welcome, thanks for coming.
<dlentz> Ursinha, i did that with fglrx not too long ago, it was productive
<bdmurray> Ursinha: well we could invalidate them all but that seems unfair to me
<Ursinha> dlentz, cool
<Ursinha> bdmurray, thing is they won't be used by anyone
<dlentz> so bdmurray, an example maybe, what would you do with
<bdmurray> I'd rather make a list of them and treat the ones that have an importance and tons of duplicates differently
<dlentz> bug 657821
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 657821 in nautilus (Ubuntu) "Dbus NoReply when mounting a davs webfolder with authentification" [Low,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/657821
<Ursinha> even if valid bugs, what one could do with that incomplete information?
<bdmurray> Well its possible somebody investigated the server failure and added details to the bug
<Ursinha> bdmurray, but they might be marked as dupes but actually not be dupes because the message is the same vague and generic one... am I talking nonsense?
<dlentz> Ursinha, i get it
<bdmurray> Ursinha: no they maybe be marked incorrectly as dupes
 * Ursinha recalls tons of oopses with similar messages and totally unrelated problems..
<Ursinha> launchpad oopses, that is
<Ursinha> okay, so it should be a case by case thing
<bdmurray> but I think we should build a list of these bugs and handle ones with a higher "gravity" manually
<Ursinha> great, agreed
<bdmurray> and those with a low gravity progrmatically
<bdmurray> my keyboard is really messed up today ;-)
<Ursinha> could we add an action on that? maybe we could do this and check the progress weekly.. is that too much?
<Ursinha> lol
<Ursinha> blame the tool
<bdmurray> #action create a list of apport-crash bugs with "DBus.Error.NoReply" in the title with bug information regarding status, importance, number of dupes and users affected
<meetingology> ACTION: create a list of apport-crash bugs with "DBus.Error.NoReply" in the title with bug information regarding status, importance, number of dupes and users affected
<bdmurray> sound good?
<Ursinha> great!
<Ursinha> :)
<Ursinha> thanks bdmurray
<bdmurray> One other thing from me
<bdmurray> I've an upload for update-manager that'll fix an issue with a bug attachment being double gzipped
<bdmurray> That should happen soon
<phil-wong> is there a way I can help with this? I only just started yesterday examining and changing new bug statuses to incomplete
<bdmurray> phil-wong: I think creating the list is best done using the launchpad api so probably not yet
<phil-wong> ok
<bdmurray> phil-wong: however, when we have that list and need to do manual investigation we could surely use your help
<bdmurray> #topic Bug Escalations (any High or Critical bugs that community members have seen that need attention)
<phil-wong> great :)
<Ursinha> phil-wong, thanks :))
<bdmurray> so phil-wong (or anybody else) are there any important bugs that you have seen that we should be aware of?
<Ursinha> important being..
<Ursinha> ?
<bdmurray> Ursinha: bugs that should be, or are, High or Critical
<bdmurray> Ursinha: or a regression
<bil21al_> bdmurray: not in empathy just one which is under the developer eye.
<Ursinha> bdmurray, thanks :) in this case, no
<phil-wong> well, I am a real newbie. I literally don't know much about linux, I'm just looking to see if bugs are detailed enough at the moment.
<phil-wong> So, I am not aware of important bugs yet.
<bdmurray> My thought was this is a good opportunity / time for bug squad members to escalate bugs to the defect analysts on the engineering teams
<dlentz> i keep seeing complaints in ubuntuforums (and there apre probably even more in kubuntuforums) of muon and kpackagekit crashing after a fresh 11.10 install, which has to be very frustrating
<dlentz> bug 915235
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 915235 in muon (Ubuntu) "muon-installer crash" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/915235
<bdmurray> dlentz: looking
<Riddell> dlentz: JontheEnchidna is often on IRC if you feel it needs a ping
<dlentz> is software-center used as default in kubuntu?
<Riddell> dlentz: no, Muon is
<Riddell> and formerly kpackagekit
<dlentz> thanks, at least there's a workaround
<bdmurray> dlentz: to be clear JontheEnchidna is Jonathan Thomas and he works on muon
<dlentz> ack'd
<bdmurray> dlentz: thanks for bringing this up - I'll take a look at it a bit more after the meeting
<Ursinha> is this the case of adding the workaround to the bug and mark it as such?
<bdmurray> I think the workaround could use some additional verification
<bdmurray> #topic Other Topics
<bdmurray> Anything else? Questions what have you
<hggdh> o/
<bdmurray> hggdh: hi there
<bdmurray> hggdh: go ahead
<dlentz> i'm relatively new (at doing this officially), and still a bit unclear on the difference between wishlist and something that sould go to ubuntubrainstorm
<hggdh> I would like to remember all that Harvest is available to simplify searching for bugs one may be interested in
<hggdh> http://harvest.ubuntu.com/
<hggdh> ..
<hggdh> and hi bdmurray ;-)
 * hggdh goes back to lurking
<bdmurray> dlentz: it depends on the scope of the feature
<Ursinha> hggdh, harvest is only for bitesize bugs or any bugs?
<hggdh> Ursinha: there are many different categories of bugs you can search for; it happens one of them is bitesize bugs
<bdmurray> dlentz: a brainstorm idea would be like ubuntu should have a global proxy configuration system
<bdmurray> dlentz: while a wishlist bug might be it should be possible to sort by song title in easytag
<Ursinha> thanks hggdh
<bdmurray> dlentz: does that help at all?
<dlentz> i see now that i re-read the wiki, ubuntubrainstorm is not for upstream stuff
<dlentz> yes, the "scope" thing helps
<dlentz> thanks
<bdmurray> dlentz: if you feel the wiki page could be improved please make the change
<dlentz> next time, i'll ask for clarification in this channel if i see one of these, thanks
<bdmurray> Ursinha: in harvest you can find fixable bugs about a package and some triaging opportunities
<bil21al> bdmurray:empathy is finalized is there any other package  that needs the attention. and have a lot of bugs  do u know about that?
<bdmurray> for triaging we have bugpattern-needed and sru verification needed tagged bugs
<bdmurray> bil21al: perhaps rhythmbox?
<hggdh> \o
<bdmurray> hggdh: hmm?
<bil21al> hmm so i keep eye on empathy and rhythmbox both. thanks cheer:)
<hggdh> heh
<hggdh> I would also like to announce the soon-to-be Bug Controller... bil21al!
<dlentz>  i try to attend to rhythmbox bugs, since i like audio stuff; i did the massive dupe check a month or so ago
<bil21al> hggdh:thank u so much
<hggdh> bil21al has been very active on Empathy triaging, and has finally acquired enough knowledge of Ubuntu triaging to be accepted
<hggdh> I will add him in as a member in a few
<hggdh> thank you, bil21al, for all your help
<hggdh> ..
<bdmurray> That's great.  Congratulations bil21al
<bil21al> hggdh:my pleasure
<bil21al> bdmurray:yw
<bdmurray> I think thats a wrap then
<bdmurray> #endmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting ended Wed Jan 25 18:49:50 2012 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-01-25-18.02.moin.txt
<Ursinha> thanks bdmurray
<bil21al> thanks bdmurray and hggdh
<bil21al> and all
<hggdh> bil21al: you are welcome.
<hggdh> ALL: please do not hesitate in pinging us at #ubuntu-bugs on any questions you have on triaging
<dlentz> aye
<micahg> or if your bug has not gotten proper attention in a reasonable period of time (or is critical to be looked at immediately)
<hggdh> indeed, thank you micahg for pointing this out
<Silverlion> hey there
<Silverlion> hey phil
<gilir> #startmeeting Lubuntu Team meeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Wed Jan 25 20:03:13 2012 UTC.  The chair is gilir. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/AlanBell/mootbot.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
<gilir> hi :)
<jmarsden|work> o/
<phillw> o/
<gilir> as usual, meeting agenda is on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Lubuntu/IRC%20Meetings/Agenda
<gilir> not many people today :)
<Yorvyk> o/
<StephenSmally> o/
<gilir> ok let's start
<Unit193> \o
<gilir> #topic gilir - Review ACTIONS from the last meeting
<gilir> the only item is the bug of unity-greeter / lightdm
<gilir> I have to admit that I can't reproduce it after upgrading lighdm-gtk-greeter, and removing unity-greeter
<phillw> it's still causing problems
<rafaellaguna> hello, a bit late
<jmarsden|work> gilir: Has the newer lightdm-gtk-greeter made it into the daily builds yet?
<gilir> jmarsden|work, not yet, I'll ping the one who work it currently to see if help is needed
<jmarsden|work> Yes, I think it will help a lot of testers can grab a new daily ISO and have it work OK.
<gilir> but even with this, it doesn't seem sto fix the problem for some people using precise (not on daily ISO)
<phillw> gilir: no, we have grabbed the new one from staging & still have problems.
<rafaellaguna> about that, I'm trying to get it looking better: http://i.imgur.com/gqZ9b.png
<phillw> I think wxl had even more problems today, if he'd like to say.
<gilir> #action gilir to help pushing new lightdm-gtk-greeter in the archive if necessary
<meetingology> ACTION: gilir to help pushing new lightdm-gtk-greeter in the archive if necessary
<gilir> well, until we have the new version, I can't really track down the others problems
<jmarsden|work> Right, until then we are somewhat stuck, I think.
<gilir> yes :/
<njin> I work ok with lxdm
<gilir> switching to lxdm is not a fix
<njin> but is a workaround
<gilir> let's continue with the next items, we can't say more about this for now
<gilir> #topic phillw - Weekly report - Update from QA meeting and team
<phillw> I'll leave out the bug.... Main thing upcoming is the pre-testing of alpha2 I'll email the list with further details of the pre-milestone release testing.
<phillw> they are still working on the automated tests and re-writing the manual tests. Once this is done I can start on the lubuntu specific ones.
<gilir> phillw, did you have the time to look at the actual state of daily ISO ?
<wxl> sorry i was stock on the wrong channel :(
<phillw> I zsync it each time I'm going to do an install onto VM to give me a 'clean' iso to test.
<phillw> my last one was yesterday, with the exception of the known bug on greeter, and a minor glitch with the artwork ppa It installs fine.
<gilir> it's still good news, it's not so broken :)
<gilir> the artwork problem should be fixed in the staging PPA with the next update of lubuntu-artwork
<rafaellaguna> only the wallpaper, isn't it?
<phillw> wxl: what happened with you?
<gilir> rafaellaguna, yes
<phillw> yeah, a no wallpaper is not the end of the world.
<phillw> possiblt for Rafael, as I know he is a perfectionist.
<rafaellaguna> no, but a blank screen is sad for newcomers
<rafaellaguna> phillw: yeah, you know me :)
<phillw> rafaellaguna: it only affects those using the test artwork, there is a warning :)
<gilir> it's the goal of the PPA ;)
<gilir> phillw, anything more on QA ?
<phillw> nothing more from the meeting, there will be an email re: alpha2 pre-milestone testing which I will forward.
<gilir> ok thanks phillw :)
<gilir> #topic Unit193 - Weekly report - Update on IRC OP's team
<Unit193> Right, nothing really that I haven't already said
<gilir> ok thanks Unit193 :) Anything new regarding new OPs on lubuntu chan ?
<Unit193> Well, it's just to wait now
<Unit193> There's a meeting Sunday
<gilir> Unit193, ok thanks :)
 * gilir doesn't see MrChrisDruif around, moving to the next item
<gilir> #topic phillw - Weekly report - Update from comms team
<phillw> Silverlion: Ã re you on the way home?
<phillw> he doubted he would be here...
<phillw> Okay, 1stly it does seem that OMGUbuntu do plug into http://lubuntu.net/ for information
<Silverlion> phillw: just on the way heading home
<phillw> so, for the people on the various teams, please do consider setting up a blog on there.
<gilir> we need some blog writers :)
<phillw> the release from OMG was clearly from there and the mailing list. The more we advertise ourselves on the likes of http://lubuntu.net/ the more likely we get picked up by OMG and Ubuntu News Weekly
<rafaellaguna> I have a great candidate for that
<rafaellaguna> I'll propose it to him
<phillw> the second one, sort of sneaky in a way, is that any announcement goes onto http://lubuntu.net/ before general release by email etc. That will concentrate the minds of those who want to report news onto an area we have control over :)
<phillw> It may only be a couple of hours... but a "you read it here 1st" does increase traffic :)
<gilir> well, maybe we need a bit more coordination for this :)
<gilir> for example, if a dev have somethng to annonce, maybe coordinate with a comm team member to advertise it right
<Yorvyk> Why not just mail the news team and OMGUbuntu direct?
<phillw> the comm team are here to serve, that would be more than okay :)
<gilir> I personnaly fail to advertise right some of the stuff I do :)
<phillw> Yorvyk: they will receive it, have no fear. But, IMHO, nothing reported on NEWS should be after our own site has it?
<gilir> Yorvyk, that could be an idea
<gilir> I don't have strong opinion on any way, just a idea I have in mind :)
<phillw> Yorvyk: if you join the comms team, I know you are involved with news stuff.
<Yorvyk> I'll join and get involved
<phillw> and lastly, we are still at an early stage, but we are looking to source some lubuntu branded items. Mugs are pretty much out as they are only 2.00GB to buy, then cost about 20.00GBP to ship out of UK.
<gilir> so, if the comm team come with a solution, I'll be interested :)
<gilir> phillw, is the items done by rafaellaguna are enough to order items ?
<phillw> There is a bit more artwork choices to do, so we can look at the pens + mouse pads offer.
<gilir> ok, anything more for comm team phillw ?
<phillw> that about sums it up.
<gilir> thanks phillw
<gilir> #topic gilir - Weekly report - Devs teams report
<gilir> lxsession - I think it's pretty ready now
<gilir> I done what I wanted for the next release, so I hope to upload it as soon as I can
<gilir> lubuntu-artwork - for people using PPA staging, you probably noticed the new packages :)
<gilir> artwork from previous version of lubuntu are available
<wxl> sorry back for what it's worth. work got in the way :(
<gilir> you need to install the package, like lubuntu-artwork-11-04 to install 11.04 artwork
<gilir> unfortunatly, you have to manually change each part of the theme :(
<wxl> gilir: why is that?
<gilir> wxl, because lxapperance (the utility to change the theme) doesn't work globaly, like the one in GNOME for example
<gilir> it's an improvement to do, maybe for 12.10
<wxl> curious. sounds like a borderline bug/feature request
<gilir> its not so simple, there are many small part to change, and some design to discuss
<wxl> since we're talking dev stuff, my issues with unity-greeter are here https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/lightdm/+bug/918401/comments/25 although i just mention it just to mention it (since i was mentioning it on the wrong channel). i am curious what the latest version of lightdm-gtk-greeter is, though, just to check.
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 918401 in lubuntu-meta (Ubuntu) "Unity-greeter installed by default on Lubuntu, crashing on start" [Undecided,Confirmed]
<phillw> wxl: it was covered while you were away :)
<wxl> phillw: i know. initially i was chatting away about it, but in #ubuntu-testing :( THEN work got in the way
<gilir> wxl, just try to update with the PPA staging, and to remove unity-greeter
<wxl> as Unit193 knows, i'm really good at sending to the wrong channel
<wxl> gilir: well, i have. that's why i want to check that my version is the expected version.
<gilir> wxl, as we said, we are waiting to update it on daily, so I can check with daily ISO what's going on
<wxl> gilir: ok, i'll shut up now ;)
<gilir> and to finish, I plan to upload new default settings tonight (which are already on the PPA staging)
<phillw> gilir: can you send an email to let us know when it is in daily for us to try.
<gilir> with Alpha 2, I hope to have some feedbacks on them
<gilir> phillw, sure
<wxl> phillw: i assume you mean to the qa list?
<phillw> default works fine (you can tell - I never nagged). Just as an aside on that, when we try things from staging - is there a system of reporting how we get on seperate to bug reporting?
<phillw> the lubuntu-qa, yes please.
<gilir> phillw, just ping people involve in the package in staging
<gilir> you should not report a bug on launchpad for something in staging
<gilir> ping or mail on the mailing list
<phillw> thanks. I guessed not. I have been using the ML :)
<gilir> ok, just 5 min for StephenSmally :)
<phillw> Just lets me put it onto the lubuntu-qa wiki page
<StephenSmally> Thank you ;-)
<gilir> #topic StephenSmally Lubuntu Software Center 0.0.4
<StephenSmally> Well, i want to just to tell you how the LSC development is going
<StephenSmally> I keep working on the main python branch, while Michael Rawson is working for the vala port (which hopefully will be ready for 12.10)
<StephenSmally> the current version is pretty stable and tested, with the latest commit i refined the interface (some visual fixes like padding between buttons).
<StephenSmally> in two or three days (i hope) i'll release LSC 0.0.4
<gilir> StephenSmally, good :) do you need any help in the release process ?
<StephenSmally> which will be (again, i hope) be ready to put in the repos before february (and the feature freeze)
<StephenSmally> gilir: yes, i think so :-)
<gilir> StephenSmally, ok, I'll try to be around this week-end, ping me if you need help
<StephenSmally> thank you.
<StephenSmally> of course, the current version will be in the PPA tomorrow (launchpad is building)
<StephenSmally> that's all folks :-P
<phillw> o/
<gilir> thanks StephenSmally :)
<gilir> yes phillw
<phillw> StephenSmally: with the last LSC, it launched in small window, which I had to maximise to see the on screen choices.
<StephenSmally> version? (apt-cache policy lubuntu-software-center)
<gilir> phillw, maybe you can report a bug on https://launchpad.net/lubuntu-software-center ?
<phillw> StephenSmally: I'll grab you later, I don't have my VM for 12.04 running right now
<gilir> it would be easier I think to discuss the issue :)
<phillw> I will :)
<StephenSmally> ok, well, it's weird
<StephenSmally> send me a mail or open a bug when you can.
<gilir> ok, it's time to end the meeting, thanks everyone :)
<gilir> #endmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting ended Wed Jan 25 21:03:30 2012 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-01-25-20.03.moin.txt
<phillw> gilir: thanks for chairing.
<Yorvyk> Bye
<gilir> StephenSmally, I'll open a bug also for LSC, I have mixed language in the UI (french + english in the information window)
<Unit193> Right, EOM
<StephenSmally> yep
<StephenSmally> also i need to know how to tell gettext to translate data/categories.ini
<gilir> StephenSmally, it may be tricky :/ I'll try to have a look at it
<StephenSmally> thankyou, i need to be translated only the names (name=*)
<StephenSmally> something like the desktop file should work
<StephenSmally> (is an .ini file too)
<gilir> StephenSmally, yes, I think so, but sometimes, autotools do things ... not expected :)
<StephenSmally> XD i don't really like autotools, but i'm an old-style developer
<AlanBell> #endmeeting
<AlanBell> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Wed Jan 25 21:18:50 2012 UTC.  The chair is AlanBell. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/AlanBell/mootbot.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
<AlanBell> #topic why is this not working right I wonder
<AlanBell> #topic can you do it now silly bot?
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: can you do it now silly bot?
<AlanBell> #topic how about now?
<AlanBell> #topic did that help?
<AlanBell> #topic now?
<AlanBell> #topic was it like that before I wonder
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: was it like that before I wonder
<AlanBell> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Lightning round
<meetingology> Meeting ended Wed Jan 25 21:29:33 2012 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-01-25-21.18.moin.txt
<Unit193> It didn't have +t
<AlanBell> so who set it +t?
<Unit193> I don't idle here
<micahg> AlanBell: seems to have happened about 5.5 hrs ago
<AlanBell> ok
 * Unit193 waves to micahg 
* AlanBell changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<AlanBell> #startmeeting an important meeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Wed Jan 25 21:35:18 2012 UTC.  The chair is AlanBell. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/AlanBell/mootbot.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | an important meeting Meeting | Current topic:
<AlanBell> #topic an important topic
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | an important meeting Meeting | Current topic:  an important topic
<AlanBell> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Wed Jan 25 21:35:33 2012 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-01-25-21.35.moin.txt
<AlanBell> must arrange a meetingology hack day to iron out some of the many bugs
<Unit193> Any ubuntu/member can op :/  Alrighty, coolio
<AlanBell> yeah, members can op here, anyone can /topic and the bot listens to the chair (person who started the meeting) and any ops
<Unit193> Ah, any OPs too
<AlanBell> so anyone who can op up can #endmeeting if the chair falls off the internet or whatever
<balloons> #ubuntu-testing
#ubuntu-meeting 2012-01-26
<viru7> hi
<ogra_> *fnop*
 * davidm waves @ NCommander 
<NCommander> #startmeeting
<meetingology`> Meeting started Thu Jan 26 15:01:02 2012 UTC.  The chair is NCommander. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/AlanBell/mootbot.
<meetingology`> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
<ogra_> i added an agenda item btw
<NCommander> whos here?
<rbasak> o/
<ahs3> \o
<ppisati> o/
<NCommander> [link] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ARM/Meeting/2012/20120126
<NCommander> we have no standing actions items so
<janimo> hi
<NCommander> [link] http://status.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-precise/ubuntu-arm.html
<cmagina> o/
<NCommander> we really need to get workitems closed off
 * ogra_ close one today :)
<ogra_> *closed
<GrueMaster> The graph would look a little more even if the bar was reset.
<GrueMaster> (still not good, though)
 * davidm waves @ NCommander 
<NCommander> morning davidm
<janimo> me too, but again wrong syntax. sigh
<GrueMaster> And we still have non-arm stuff on there.
<ogra_> yes, because ubuntu-arm contains non arm people
<ogra_> 7me wonders why we have the same statements over and over again every week
<NCommander> ogra_: its probably easier to simply look at the topic specs vs. the team spec
<ogra_> bar wont be reset, ubuntu-arm isnt canonical-arm (on your guys request, i was trying to prevent that back then)
<NCommander> anyway
<NCommander> [topic] Ubuntu ARM Buglist cleanup (everyone to get rid of rotting untouched bugs for obsolete releases) Bugs we are subscribed to
* meetingology` changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu ARM Buglist cleanup (everyone to get rid of rotting untouched bugs for obsolete releases) Bugs we are subscribed to
<ogra_> the list currently has 230 bugs open
<ogra_> of which (guessed) 130 are rotten crap we will never fix
<janimo> I'll clean up the ftbfs list
<ogra_> i would like everyone to look through it over the next week to close what we will never touch
<NCommander> [link] https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/+bugs?field.searchtext=&orderby=-importance&field.status%3Alist=NEW&field.status%3Alist=CONFIRMED&field.status%3Alist=TRIAGED&field.status%3Alist=INPROGRESS&field.status%3Alist=FIXCOMMITTED&field.status%3Alist=INCOMPLETE_WITH_RESPONSE&field.status%3Alist=INCOMPLETE_WITHOUT_RESPONSE&assignee_option=any&field.assignee=&field.bug_reporter=&field.bug_commenter=&field.subscriber=ubuntu-arm&field.tag=
<janimo> buglist
<ogra_> NCommander, arch
<NCommander> ugh
<ogra_> *argh i meant
<ogra_> everyone just use the link on the agenda page so NCommander doesnt need to paste it ;)
<ogra_> (i guess it extends the IRC limit anyway)
<NCommander> ogra_: looking at the least briefly, almost all of these bugs look valid
<ogra_> can we make an action out of that for next week
<ogra_> NCommander, you looked at all 230 ?
<ogra_> surely the high ones are valid
<GrueMaster> Some of these bugs may have open upstream bugs, which will keep them open in LP.
<NCommander> [action] team to review ubuntu-armel master buglist andclean it out
<meetingology`> ACTION: team to review ubuntu-armel master buglist andclean it out
<ogra_> right
<ogra_> thats what we need to look at
<NCommander> [topic] ARM Server Status (NCommander)
* meetingology` changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: ARM Server Status (NCommander)
<rbasak> What's the status of the kernel regression/memory hole issue? bug 920511 bug 921137
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 920511 in linux-ti-omap4 (Ubuntu) "Regression: netinst on panda armhf fails" [Critical,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/920511
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 921137 in flash-kernel (Ubuntu) "Flash-kernel-installer doesn't support d-i debian-installer/add-kernel-opts in preseed " [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/921137
<NCommander> Initial uploads for the Marvell board will take place today, getting all the userspace bits ready in preperation for a kernel upload
<GrueMaster> I think I saw a new kernel in the build process for panda.
<ogra_> you upload the board ? *g*
<rbasak> So we're rolling back to not requiring memory hole parameters?
<ogra_> yup. omap4 had an upload, should be built already but meta is missing
<GrueMaster> rbasak: Save it for kernel topic
<ogra_> right
<ppisati> they told "it's in the pipe"
<ppisati> *tole me
<ppisati> argh
<NCommander> [topic] Kernel Status (cooloney, ppisati)
* meetingology` changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Kernel Status (cooloney, ppisati)
<rbasak> Could I ask that the bug be kept updated on what the current plan is please? This issue pretty much halted development for a number of developers
<ogra_>  given the changes in the TI kernel, we wont be requiring the mem= params anymore :)
<GrueMaster> Filed a new bug (Bug #921934 ) on omap3 last night.
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 921934 in linux (Ubuntu) "mmc no longer detected on omap (BeagleXM) since 3.2.0.9" [Critical,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/921934
<ogra_> which means i'll drop them as soon as the new kernel binary is there from the preinstalled builds
<ogra_> netinst never had them i think
<GrueMaster> No, but there is still a valid bug on netinstall in that it doesn't have a way to add kernel parameters during installation.
<ogra_> right, the f-k-i bug is something different
<ogra_> should be a two line fix or so, and i thought you said NCommander was working on it
<NCommander> ogra_: thats getting rolled into when I told f-k for armadaxp
<rbasak> will the installer need to be updated after the new kernel is built in the archive?
<ogra_> ah, great
<ogra_> yes
<ogra_> if the ABI was bumped at least
 * ogra_ isnt sure it was
<NCommander> [topic] ARM Porting/FTBFS status (NCommander, janimo)
* meetingology` changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: ARM Porting/FTBFS status (NCommander, janimo)
<rbasak> what do we need to do to make sure it happens?
<janimo> calligra fix take two curently building
<rbasak> and how long do we think it'll be before the breakage is fixed in the archive?
<ogra_> rbasak, wait for the kernel and meta and bump the d-i config and rebuild
 * ogra_ looked at some FTBFS, thzere are still many upstream issues in universe 
<ogra_> like gthread calls having changed etc
<rbasak> ok, thanks
<NCommander> in main, Qt went and is crying in the corner
<NCommander> /usr/bin/ld: final link failed: Memory exhausted
<ogra_> puch
<ogra_> err
<ogra_> ouch even
<NCommander> I suspect it needs to be built on something with more RAM/swap
<ogra_> was that a panda it built on ?
<NCommander> I can't keep track of which machine is what in the buildd pool
<ogra_> if so, it might be tricky :)
<ogra_> the pandas should all have panda in their name now i was told
<NCommander> [action] NCommander to debug memory-exhaustation build issue with lamont
<meetingology`> ACTION: NCommander to debug memory-exhaustation build issue with lamont
<ppisati> GrueMaster: i'm on ompa3 mmc bug right
<ppisati> sorry, i was in another window, bisecting...
<NCommander> Kernel version: 2.6.38-1209-omap4 #20-Ubuntu SMP PREEMPT Wed Jan 4 19:45:37 UTC 2012 armv7l
<NCommander> ^- ogra
<ogra_> aha
<GrueMaster> ppisati: I didn't assign it to you, but I can.
<ogra_> thats really bad then
<NCommander> ogra_: I'll look at with lamont today
<NCommander> anyway
<lamont> NCommander: that could also be done with #webops
<ogra_> gievn they usually have 20G swap
<ogra_> move ?
<NCommander> ogra_: its possibly ld has hit the 4 GiB process minute
<NCommander> [topic] QA Status (GrueMaster, mahmoh)
* meetingology` changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: QA Status (GrueMaster, mahmoh)
<ogra_> yeah
<NCommander> s/miute/limit/g
 * ogra_ knew what you meant :)
<ogra_> somehow ...
<ppisati> GrueMaster: go ahead
<GrueMaster> Doing a quick screen of preinstalled images prior to milestone next week.
<GrueMaster> Found several issues with omap (kernel mmc, new u-boot but old MLO mismatch)
<ogra_> didnt infinity (where is he) take care for the latter yesterday ?
 * ogra_ saw some f-k uploads
<GrueMaster> Not much has happened in attempting to automate preinstall testing due to preseed issues with oem-config.
<ogra_> do we actually have a bug ?
 * ogra_ cant remember 
<GrueMaster> ogra_: I'm just reporting status.
<GrueMaster> For the kernel, yes.
<ogra_> i plan to look into that
<GrueMaster> Bug #921934
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 921934 in linux (Ubuntu) "mmc no longer detected on omap (BeagleXM) since 3.2.0.9" [Critical,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/921934
<ogra_> for oem-config preseeding being broken
<ogra_> mmc is on paolos desk already :)
<GrueMaster> I'll have to look, but I believe so.
<ogra_> k
<ogra_> feel free to assign to me
<GrueMaster> And I think you filed it.
<ogra_> i filed one for oem-config not running in chroots
<ogra_> anyway, lets do that offline
<GrueMaster> Ok.
<NCommander> [topic] Linaro Updates (rsalveti)
* meetingology` changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Linaro Updates (rsalveti)
<ogra_> unity and nux were merged !
<ogra_> everyone cheer for linaro !
<ogra_> (compiz still missing though)
 * NCommander plays generic YAY sound effect
<davidm> That is good news
<ogra_> davidm, well, these two were the easy ones :)
<ogra_> all arm code is fidefed anyway
<davidm> Ya, but at least they are done now
 * ppisati wonders what nux is...
<ogra_> *ifdefed
 * NCommander wonders where rsalveti is
<ogra_> ppisati, widget lib that unity uses
<ppisati> ah
 * ppisati is ignorant...
 * rsalveti waves
<rsalveti> 1 sec
<ogra_> yeah, wait until we can mopdprobe unity and you will *have to* care :P
<rsalveti> release almost out
<rsalveti> https://launchpad.net/linaro-dev-platform/+milestone/12.01
<rsalveti> New u-boot-linaro, USB SPL working, and new SPL for omap3 (guess it's fixed at the image already)
<rsalveti> Enablement testing for wifi, bluetooth and basic graphics at LAVA, what could also help validating the omap3/4 images for Ubuntu.
<rsalveti> XBMC ready image was published, working quite well on Panda. Work in progress to rebase to eden's beta 2 and fix a few other issues to be compatible with other boards.
<rsalveti> Kernel CI for our packages available at https://ci.linaro.org/jenkins/view/Ubuntu%20CI%20PKG/. That can help people trying to check/test a newer kernel for the boards we support (like imx53).
<rsalveti> Automated cross-buildd is now using sbuild with multiarch, and getting package notification with reprepro/rebuildd. Logs available at http://people.linaro.org/~wookey/buildd/ (future planning to improve the interface a bit, and also work on some remaining issues, like fixing apt-get build-dep -a).
<NCommander> anything else?
 * ogra_ also saw you switched to proper seeds, tasks and metapackages today :)
<ogra_> for image builds
<rsalveti> yup \o/
<ogra_> yay
<NCommander> rsalveti: anything else?
<rsalveti> GrueMaster: any issue with omap3?
<rsalveti> nops, I'm fine
<NCommander> [topic] AOB
* meetingology` changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: AOB
<ogra_> rsalveti, more on the userspace and build side
<ogra_> (omap3 that is)
<GrueMaster> rsalveti: I haven't been able to fully test the new u-boot.
<rsalveti> oh, ok
<ogra_> s/build/image build/
<rsalveti> let me know about any issues
<GrueMaster> It seems ok so far.  What is the status on the usb boot part?
<NCommander> is ther eanything else or can I close?
<NCommander> going once
<NCommander> twice
<NCommander> three times
<rsalveti> GrueMaster: should be working
<NCommander> #endmeeting
* meetingology` changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology`> Meeting ended Thu Jan 26 15:36:01 2012 UTC.
<meetingology`> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-01-26-15.01.moin.txt
<rsalveti> GrueMaster: jcrigby will have a blog post about it
<rsalveti> with instructions
<GrueMaster> ok
<ogra_> NCommander, can you wait next time until we are finished
#ubuntu-meeting 2012-01-27
 * slangasek waves
<mdeslaur> \o
 * stgraber waves
<mlegris> o/
<ogra_> moop
<pitti> good afternoon
<arosales> Hello
<ogasawara> who's the meeting chair today?
<slangasek> sorry, I'm a little bit behind on getting the wiki page loaded up today
<slangasek> ogasawara: I am
<slangasek> but I haven't done this in a while, so please bear with me :)
<jibel> hi
<dbarth> hi steve
<slangasek> #startmeeting
<meetingology`> Meeting started Fri Jan 27 16:05:56 2012 UTC.  The chair is slangasek. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/AlanBell/mootbot.
<meetingology`> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
<slangasek> [TOPIC] Release general overview - slangasek
* meetingology` changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Release general overview - slangasek
<slangasek> Agenda can be found:
<slangasek> #link https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ReleaseTeam/Meeting/2012-01-27
<slangasek> Individual team status links were/will be added to it from:
<slangasek> #link https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-release/2012-January/thread.html
<slangasek> #link https://wiki.ubuntu.com/PrecisePangolin/ReleaseSchedule release schedule
 * slangasek wonders if the bot is paying attention
<slangasek> #link http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars/ubuntu-release-calendar/ release schedule
<slangasek> #link http://reports.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/kernel-bugs/reports/rls-p-tracking-bugs.html bugs the engineering teams have committed to fix
<slangasek> if you have other bugs you'd like the engineering teams to consider for fixing, they should be assigned to specific teams so they can be found.
<slangasek> Upcoming dates:
<slangasek> â¢ 2012/02/02 - Alpha 2
<slangasek> â¢ 2012/02/16 - Feature Freeze
<slangasek> â¢ 2012/02/16 - 10.04.4
<cjwatson> rls-p-tracking-bugs is, as usual for reports.qa pages, hopelessly wrong
<cjwatson> there are more than four bugs tagged rls-p-tracking
<slangasek> oh gar
<Riddell> who's incharge of alpha 2?
<slangasek> Riddell: o/
<Riddell> good luck :)
<slangasek> hmm, thanks ;)
<slangasek> [ACTION] slangasek to follow up on rls-p-tracking report breakage
<meetingology`> ACTION: slangasek to follow up on rls-p-tracking report breakage
<ogasawara> slangasek: just fyi, I've pinged bjf about it
<slangasek> ***WORKITEMS:*** we are still above the overall trendline unfortunately; we really need to get workitems postponed that aren't going to happen so that other teams know what to expect.  So please work with your teams to mark as postponed work that isn't going to happen
<slangasek> [LINK] http://status.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-precise/ work item tracker
<slangasek> [TOPIC] Alpha-2
* meetingology` changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Alpha-2
<slangasek> Alpha 2 is due next Thursday.  I'm planning for the soft freeze to go into effect Tuesday morning UTC for milestone preparation, so please plan your uploads accordingly
<slangasek> #link https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bugs?field.milestone%3Alist=44326&field.tag=rls-mgr-p-tracking bugs engineering teams have committed to fixing for alpha-2
<slangasek> er no, sorry
<slangasek> #link https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bugs?field.milestone%3Alist=44326&field.tag=rls-mgr-p-tracking bugs that have been flagged by release management for fixing in alpha-2
<slangasek> #link https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bugs?field.milestone%3Alist=44326&field.tag=rls-p-tracking bugs engineering teams have committed to fixing that are milestoned to alpha-2
<slangasek> does the latter set bear discussing in this meeting?
<slangasek> if you're not expecting a fix uploaded by EOD Monday, they probably need the milestone moved
<slangasek> bug #830949, bug #344878, bug #800826, bug #850264, bug #872446, bug #905754, bug #790240
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 830949 in compiz (Ubuntu) "[Intel N10 Graphics] Need Compiz' "Copy to Texture" plugin so can display on multi-head layouts bigger than the max GL texture size" [Critical,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/830949
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 344878 in linux (Ubuntu Precise) "file name too long when creating new file (ecryptfs_lookup: lookup_one_len() returned [-36] on lower_dentry)" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/344878
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 800826 in apparmor (Ubuntu Precise) "aa-notify doesn't display certain apparmor events" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/800826
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 850264 in apt (Ubuntu Precise) "given a foreign architecture of i386 on amd64 machine, and an outdated libc, apt tries to remove libc-bin" [High,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/850264
<slangasek> (seven bugs, one with two tasks)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 872446 in apparmor (Ubuntu Precise) "aa-logprof should detect denials as well as complaints" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/872446
<slangasek> Any comments on those bugs?
<mdeslaur> I'll move the milestones on the security team ones, they won't be ready for alpha 2
<slangasek> mdeslaur: ack, thanks
<tyhicks> mdeslaur, slangasek: 344878 has a fix in the current precise kernel
<slangasek> and I'll send out a milestone freeze pre-announcement mail today to ubuntu-devel to make sure everyone's on the same page
<tyhicks> I still have to do some touchups on it, but what's currently there is "good enough"
<slangasek> tyhicks: sounds like the bug tasks should either be marked as 'fix released' or have the milestone moved to track the further work
<tyhicks> slangasek: ack - marking it fixed release and I'll leave it inprogress on the upstream task
<slangasek> any other comments/questions on alpha-2?
<mdeslaur> tyhicks: I'll mark it as fix released thanks.
<tyhicks> mdeslaur: I'll fix that, too
<slangasek> [TOPIC] Hardware Certification team update - mlegris or brendand
* meetingology` changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Hardware Certification team update - mlegris or brendand
<pitti> slangasek: I asked mvo about apt, and will move the compiz one (release got delayed)
<mlegris> [link] https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-release/2012-January/000753.html
<slangasek> pitti: the apt one is pretty critical from our side and I'm working with him to get something in fwiw
<mlegris> usual weekly testing, next week we'll be starting on A2
<pitti> slangasek: yes, I fully agree
<slangasek> (where by "working with" I mean "testing and repeatedly reporting regressions" :P)
<mlegris> ..
<slangasek> mlegris: thanks
<slangasek> questions for mlegris?
<slangasek> [TOPIC] QA team update -  jibel
* meetingology` changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: QA team update -  jibel
<jibel> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-release/2012-January/000767.html
<jibel> as pitti mentioned bug 922478 is fixed but alternate is still failing with bug 922646
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 922478 in fonts-tlwg (Ubuntu) "ubuntu alternate 20120127 failed to install: ttf-thai-tlwg : Depends: fonts-thai-tlwg but it is not installable" [Undecided,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/922478
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 922646 in debian-installer (Ubuntu) "precise alternate LVM failed to install: no root file system" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/922646
<cjwatson> wut
<cjwatson> I rebuilt it to fix that and tested that report.html was empty now
<cjwatson> are you *sure*
<cjwatson> oh sorry, misread, you mean a different bug now
<pitti> jibel: well, I fixed the most probable cause of it, I haven't actually re-tested; but I wouldn't see what's wrong now
<pitti> ah, likewise, sorry
<jibel> this is the only issue, no problem with server, and we'll review desktop images
<jibel> ..
<slangasek> cjwatson, jibel: should 922646 be targeted to alpha-2?  or should this be release-noted off for this milestone?
<cjwatson> grumble - I'll have a look
<slangasek> (IMHO it's not alpha-critical)
<cjwatson> slangasek: we're going to run into it in iso testing anyway so better deal with it for a2
<cjwatson> imo
<slangasek> ok
<slangasek> bug twiddled
<slangasek> any other questions for jibel?
<slangasek> [TOPIC] Security team Q&A - mdeslaur
* meetingology` changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Security team Q&A - mdeslaur
<mdeslaur> [link] https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-release/2012-January/000754.html
<mdeslaur> nothing further to report
<slangasek> questions for mdeslaur?
<mdeslaur> I've adjusted a couple of bugs
<mdeslaur> ..
<slangasek> [TOPIC] Kernel team Q&A - ogasawara
* meetingology` changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Kernel team Q&A - ogasawara
<ogasawara> [LINK] https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-release/2012-January/000755.html
<ogasawara> As noted in my email, we intend to upload our final Alpha-2 kernel
<ogasawara> today.  If there are any fixes needing to land, I/we need to know about
<ogasawara> them now.
<ogasawara> Any questions?
<ogasawara> ..
<slangasek> does the new kernel fix my laptop's 15% suspend failure rate? ;)
<slangasek> moving on :)
<slangasek> [TOPIC] Foundations team Q&A - cjwatson
* meetingology` changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Foundations team Q&A - cjwatson
<cjwatson> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-release/2012-January/000768.html - sorry for late posting this week
<cjwatson> http://status.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-precise/canonical-foundations.html
<cjwatson> We've caught up very slightly this week, but not by much.  Trying to make progress on upgrade handling which is a major outstanding chunk of work.
<cjwatson> ..
<slangasek> possibly of note is the resolvconf package landing in the seeds overnight, which has caused some upgrade and livecd failures
<slangasek> I will be available for tarring and feathering after the meeting
<ogasawara> slangasek: rls-p-tracking-bugs.html is back
<slangasek> in the meantime, stgraber is working on getting those regressions fixed today
<slangasek> ogasawara: thanks
<slangasek> any other questions for foundations?
<cjwatson> yes, I kicked some of the livecd builds but not all
<stgraber> yeah! having a lot of fun fixing the world ;) (just discovered that LXC is broken too :))
<cjwatson> due mostly to patch piloting this morning thoroughly distracting me
<slangasek> [TOPIC] Server team Q&A - arosales
* meetingology` changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Server team Q&A - arosales
<arosales> Hello
<arosales> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-release/2012-January/000774.html
<arosales> Still have a bug list we are working through, but oo critical bugs atm, openstack automation testing framwork now live.  MaaS also taking shape, and Juju Charm automated testing well underway.
<arosales> Any questions?
<arosales> s/oo/no/
<arosales> ..
<slangasek> arosales: any bugs that are a concern for your team for alpha-2 that aren't already on the targeted list?
<arosales> not that I am aware of.
<slangasek> ok, thanks
<slangasek> [TOPIC] ARM team Q&A-  ogra_
* meetingology` changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: ARM team Q&A-  ogra_
<arosales> sure, np.
<ogra_> thats me !
<ogra_> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-release/2012-January/000777.html
<ogra_> i dont really know much about the d-i stuff yet, since that only came up yesterday and NCommander hasnt been around all day ...
<ogra_> but i know that he (was supposed to) talked to cjwatson yaesterday about it
<ogra_> ..
<ogra_> cjwatson, anything to add on the plans ?
<ogra_> ..
<slangasek> ogra_: well, AIUI your team is asking for a d-i build for a kernel that we aren't even remotely going to consider providing security support for
<ogra_> slangasek, right, my thought was to use a PPA, but michael claims that doesnt work
<ogra_> ..
<slangasek> I advised NCommander yesterday that the best option under the circumstances is probably to clone the d-i source package, maintaining it as a bzr branch, and push this separate package to universe
<ogra_> ok
<slangasek> cjwatson: ^^ not sure if you agree with that
<slangasek> (we can also take this out-of-band for further discussion)
<ogra_> sound like a lot extra work vs using a PPA though
<ogra_> right, and its michaels project, i'm only the (uninformed) reporter here :)
<ogra_> ..
<slangasek> any other questions for ARM?
<fabo> o/
<cjwatson> slangasek: that sounds highly unpleasant ...
<fabo> ogra_: any eta for m5 kernel tree to use?
<slangasek> cjwatson: the whole thing is highly unpleasant, AFAICS :)
<ogra_> fabo, its in the hands of linaro
<fabo> mx5
<cjwatson> I'd rather just hack d-i to build this image out of universe :P
<ogra_> slangasek, cjwatson thats why i said PPA from the start ....
<cjwatson> it won't make the situation particularly worse except that the images will end up in main/installer-arm*/
<cjwatson> but they'll do that if you clone d-i too
<slangasek> ogra_: cdimage pulling from a ppa is no less unpleasant
<cjwatson> ... and there's no code for that
<ogra_> cdimage ?
<cjwatson> and PPAs don't support d-i custom uploads
<ogra_> all we need is a netinst image
<slangasek> that's not what I was told
<cjwatson> you won't get that from a PPA
<slangasek> anyway, let's offline this
<ogra_> oh, ok
<fabo> ogra_: sounds like we're asking to your team if we should use 3.1 or 3.2
<ogra_> right, i'm to uninformed to even remotely discuss it
<ogra_> ..
<ogra_> fabo, ah, well, iirc that kernel is in universe, while 3.2 would be preferred we could live with a lower version
<fabo> ok
<fabo> ..
<ogra_> the images we roll from it are community supported ones
<ogra_> ..
<slangasek> [TOPIC] Linaro team Q&A - fabo
* meetingology` changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Linaro team Q&A - fabo
<fabo> hi
<fabo> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-release/2012-January/000776.html
<fabo> the only question I had, has been asked (mx5)
<fabo> any questions?
<fabo> ..
<ogra_> funny how we both always write the same about the unity merge *g*
<ogra_> ..
<slangasek> [TOPIC] Ubuntu One Team Q&A -  joshuahoover
* meetingology` changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu One Team Q&A -  joshuahoover
<slangasek> no report on list
<slangasek> no joshuahoover in channel
<slangasek> so, moving on
<slangasek> [TOPIC] Desktop Team Q&A  - pitti
* meetingology` changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Desktop Team Q&A  - pitti
<pitti> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-release/2012-January/000761.html
<pitti> nothign to add to that ATM, any questions?
<pitti> ..
<slangasek> pitti: I know that there's an openoffice.org upgrade ordering issue that's causing some upgrade test failures in jenkins; is that anything you guys are planning to tackle before a-2?
<pitti> oh, again?
<pitti> slangasek: wasn't, but I can add it to my list; I suppose there's a bug for it already
<slangasek> "again" - I thought it's been pretty continuous :)
<dbarth> pitti: o/
<slangasek> jibel: do you have that bug number handy?
<pitti> slangasek: I looked at it during my december stable+1 shift, but maybe it came back with the new lo
<pitti> bug 917153 ?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 917153 in libreoffice (Ubuntu Precise) "failed to upgrade from oneiric to precise: /usr/lib/libreoffice/program/unopkg.bin: error while loading shared libraries: libicule.so.48: cannot open shared object file: No such file or directory" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/917153
<slangasek> yes, that's the one
<pitti> that's something Sweetshark started working on
<jibel> pitti, that's it.
<pitti> but he's on holidays now
<slangasek> ok
<slangasek> so that's a "no" for alpha-2, right?
<pitti> TBH I don't have much hope that me or someone else has the time to learn LibO packaging and fix that by a2
<pitti> yes, pretty much
<slangasek> ok
<slangasek> anything else for desktop?
<pitti> I'll fix the lightdm one on Monday
<slangasek> dbarth: did you have a question for pitti?
<pitti> (autologin conversion)
<dbarth> yes, on the x.org upload, wether that contains the xfixes tweaks
<dbarth> if you know
<pitti> to unblock the configuration migration tests in jenkins
<dbarth> otherwise i'll check the changelogs
<pitti> dbarth: there were some uploads in RAOF's PPA, and I think they landed yesterday
<dbarth> ah, sounds good
<dbarth> so we should be unblocked now then
<pitti> if https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/libxfixes/1:5.0-4ubuntu1 is what you were looking for
<dbarth> cool
<pitti> (that was the help-jason PPA)
<dbarth> ;) sounds like it
<slangasek> [TOPIC] Unity Framework Team Q&A - dbarth
* meetingology` changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Unity Framework Team Q&A - dbarth
<dbarth> the status is at: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopExperienceTeam/ReleaseStatus
<dbarth> we'll ship 5.0 for alpha-2
<dbarth> ie, the version that is currently integrated and hopefully stable in precise
<dbarth> 5.2 will be out shortly after the freeze is lifted
<dbarth> the report contains the rest, compiz stays the same for a-2 again
<dbarth> ..
<slangasek> dbarth: thanks
<slangasek> any questions on unity?
<slangasek> [TOPIC] Unity Services and Settings Team  Q&A - olli
* meetingology` changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Unity Services and Settings Team  Q&A - olli
<olli> status is at https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-release/2012-January/000772.html
<olli> the team is currently looking at fixes listed in https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/ps-p-indicator-refinements
<olli> any questions
<slangasek> [TOPIC] Kubuntu Team Q&A - Riddell
* meetingology` changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Kubuntu Team Q&A - Riddell
<Riddell> hi
<Riddell> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-release/2012-January/000762.html
<Riddell> python-qt4 was broken on arm but a fix is compiling away
<Riddell> qtwebkit-source still broken on arm, waiting on infinity to get a fix in to kernel
<Riddell> ..
<slangasek> questions for Riddell?
<ScottK> calligra also compiling away on arm ...
<ogra_> as mentioned above :)
<ogra_> ..
<slangasek> Riddell: what fix into kernel is waited on?
<Riddell> slangasek: something to let armhf use higher memory I think
<slangasek> I thought that was done same-day last week
<slangasek> Riddell: can I suggest you double-check with infinity on the current status?
<ScottK> No.  Didn't work.
<slangasek> oh
<ScottK> slangasek: We did after the meeting last week.
<ScottK> Got a rebuild on an upgraded machine done and it still failed.
<slangasek> ok
<slangasek> I believe that kernel fix has been tested in other contexts, though
<slangasek> so if you're still OOMing on build, I think you need to look outside the kernel for the fix
<slangasek> because now you're hitting the 3G limit instead of the 2G limit, and that's non-negotiable
<slangasek> anyway, I'd suggest following up with infinity
<Riddell> ok needs looking into then
<slangasek> [TOPIC] Edubuntu Team Q&A - stgraber or highvoltage
* meetingology` changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Edubuntu Team Q&A - stgraber or highvoltage
<stgraber> hello
<slangasek> (apologies again for the late start to the meeting)
<stgraber> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-release/2012-January/000758.html
<slangasek> any questions on Edubuntu?
<stgraber> Daviey: I started the update of LTSP today as it needs fixing for resolvconf, hopefully it'll be uploaded this weekend (if testing doesn't show any major breakage as I don't want to break alpha2 :))
<highvoltage> and Edubuntu is in UDW next week
<slangasek> [TOPIC] Xubuntu Team Q&A - madnick or charlie-tca
<stgraber> worst case scenerio, I'll cherry-pick the fix for resolvconf into our current LTSP and will look at fixing the udeb to avoid the current race condition (release targeted bug for alpha-2)
* meetingology` changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Xubuntu Team Q&A - madnick or charlie-tca
<stgraber> ..
<madnick> hi
<slangasek> stgraber: oops, sorry
<madnick> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-release/2012-January/000763.html
<madnick> That is all I know :)
<madnick> ..
<slangasek> any questions on Xubuntu?
<slangasek> [TOPIC] Ubuntu Studio Team Q&A - scott-work
* meetingology` changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Studio Team Q&A - scott-work
<scott-work> see: https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-release/2012-January/000759.html
<scott-work>  work items: http://status.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-precise/group/topic-precise-flavor-ubuntu-studio.html
<scott-work> thanks again to cjwatson for live-dvd work!
<cjwatson> np
<scott-work> a large concern right now is the lightdm-greeter problem which prevents x from starting on an install
<scott-work> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/lightdm/+bug/922424
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 922424 in lightdm (Ubuntu) "lightdm won't start I have console(s) only" [Undecided,Confirmed]
<scott-work> ..
<scott-work> oh, and pitti asked questions in the email that i hope i satisfactorily asnwered
<scott-work> ..
<slangasek> I see feedback on the bug from superm1 suggesting that this needs to be fixed in whatever greeter package ubuntustudio is using
<slangasek> scott-work: feel free to bring it to #ubuntu-devel if that doesn't do the trick
<slangasek> [TOPIC] Lubuntu Team Q&A - gilir
* meetingology` changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Lubuntu Team Q&A - gilir
<gilir> hi
<gilir> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-release/2012-January/000769.html
<gilir> ..
<slangasek> any questions on Lubuntu?
<pitti> sorry, I need to run out now
<slangasek> pitti: ack - thanks
<slangasek> [TOPIC] MOTU Team Q&A - tumbleweed or Laney
* meetingology` changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: MOTU Team Q&A - tumbleweed or Laney
<Laney> hiya
<slangasek> Laney: hey there
<Laney> not much to report, ppc backlog is a bit of a concern
<Laney> also ftbfs are a bit high so we should do something about that
<Laney> and thanks to the patch pilots: sponsor queue is heading in the right direction
<Laney> :-)
<Laney> ..
<slangasek> Laney: any particulars on ftbfs that are worth drawing out, or is it general archive malaise?
<slangasek> (or un-analyzed)
<Laney> I haven't analysed it yet, but another drive like we had last cycle would be nice (don't know if a rebuild is planned to get the numbers refreshed)
<slangasek> doko is planning a rebuild now-ish
<slangasek> I don't know if it encompasses universe however... actually that might be a toolchain test rebuild
<slangasek> so nevermind
<slangasek> please talk to doko about your needS :)
<Laney> I just looked at qa.uw.c/ftbfs
<slangasek> [TOPIC] Any other business, comments,  questions?
* meetingology` changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Any other business, comments,  questions?
<slangasek> anything else?
<slangasek> 'cause I know you're all eager to spend more time in a meeting at your EOW :)
<slangasek> #endmeeting
* meetingology` changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology`> Meeting ended Fri Jan 27 17:12:40 2012 UTC.
<meetingology`> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-01-27-16.05.moin.txt
<slangasek> thanks everyone!
<Laney> thanks
<madnick> thanks
<arosales> slangasek: Thanks for being the chair, have a good weekend.
<ogra_> thanks slangasek
<stgraber> thanks!
<doko> slangasek, Laney: four rebuilds: main/rebuild, main/4.7, universe/rebuild, universe/4.7
<slangasek> doko: so those results will feed into qa.uw.c/ftbfs, yes?
<doko> slangasek, yes
<ajmitch> stefano-palazzo: sorry to disappoint, I haven't sen any other ARB people around
<jrgifford> ajmitch :(
<stgraber> ajmitch: hey :)
<ajmitch> hi stgraber
<stgraber> ajmitch: sorry, have been fighting resolvconf related issues since I woke up...
<ajmitch> no problem :)
<ajmitch> got the live cd builds working again?
<stgraber> oh yeah, that was the easy bit :)
<stgraber> then, ubiquity failed, netcfg fails in some corner cases, LXC failed, schroot failed, LTSP still fails, ... :)
<ajmitch> so far, just 2 from the ARB & one apology for being a bit late, worth starting a meeting?
<stgraber> I think I only have the chroots and LTSP left on the list at the moment (but I have a fix for the chroot bit at least)
<stgraber> hmm, let me try a mass ping of ARB members
<ajmitch> that's a lot of fallout
<stgraber> at least highvoltage was on IRC a few minutes ago
<stgraber> yeah, that's a long list, we mostly got caught by build/install issues, I'm not aware of any breakage on existing systems at least
<stgraber> wendar, highvoltage: ping?
<wendar> hi
<ajmitch> hi wendar
<wendar> sorry, my caledar shows the meeting as 36 minutes from now, for some reason
<wendar> probably a time-zone thing
<ajmitch> most likely, fridge calendar is a bit funny with that
<stgraber> #startmeeting ARB meeting
<meetingology`> Meeting started Fri Jan 27 18:25:03 2012 UTC.  The chair is stgraber. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/AlanBell/mootbot.
<meetingology`> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
* meetingology` changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ARB meeting Meeting | Current topic:
<stgraber> sorry if I'm a bit distracted, I'm being poked on a few channels at the moment ;)
<stgraber> #link https://wiki.ubuntu.com/AppReviewBoard/Agenda
<ajmitch> it's ok, I'm still trying to wake up :)
<stgraber> #topic Apps which modify system settings (ubuntu-tweak, grub-customizer) -- AndrewMitchell
* meetingology` changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ARB meeting Meeting | Current topic:  Apps which modify system settings (ubuntu-tweak, grub-customizer) -- AndrewMitchell
<ajmitch> we had a brief discussion about this one in #ubuntu-arb yesterday, that we have some submissions which fiddle with the system (installing packages, touching files in /etc)
<ajmitch> currently we have a general policy that such things aren't allowed, but there's no definitive place we can point people at for what's acceptable
<wendar> that's true
<wendar> there's the early documents, but it's not a clear list
<wendar> it would be better to have one page
<stgraber> right, I think we should go with a whitelist on that rather than a blacklist
<ajmitch> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/AppReviewBoard/Review has some of our other rules, PostReleaseApps/SecurityChecklist has a whole lot more
<wendar> stgraber: I like that, it has a more positive tone
<stgraber> along the lines of is allowed to write to an app specific directory in the user's home directory and can use gconf/gsettings to affect desktop settings if that's the result of a user's direct action in the UI and is revertable
<ajmitch> I'd like to be able to reject those apps with a good response, and get information on developer.ubuntu.com linking to what we'll accept
<highvoltage> stgraber: pong
<stgraber> I don't want an app that starts messing in gconf/gsettings when it opens without it being a visible opt-in switch
<ajmitch> alright
<ajmitch> you've probably seen that there's a fair discussion on ubuntu-desktop about ccsm & related apps
<wendar> indeed
<stgraber> indeed and I'm not necessarily against apps like that in extras, but they shouldn't do anything by default, make it clear to the user about what will be changed when they click something and ensure that reverting the change works
<stgraber> (so effectively, that'd be a no-go for ccsm as the part about reverting changes doesn't seem to work too well ;))
<ajmitch> unfortunately ubuntu-tweak is a bit of a kitchen sink, it adds/removes packages & manages PPAs as well
<stgraber> right, ubuntu-tweak is a clear no-go if only for its use of gksudo, touching /etc and adding repositories
<stgraber> we don't even allow packages in the archive to add PPAs (well, except the packaging tools themselves) :)
<highvoltage> stgraber: so is ccsm being dropped from the archive?
<ajmitch> highvoltage: as it stands, it's likely
<Pendulum> Before you drop it can someone see how much work it's going to be to make the screen magnifier accessible in other ways? (including the options to set type of zoom and level of zoom)
<ajmitch> grub-customizer has an open debian ITP, so probably better to help the author get it in there
<stgraber> highvoltage, Pendulum: it might get dropped, anyway, that's not a discussion for the ARB to have, please discuss it on the mailing lists :)
<ajmitch> Pendulum: we're not the ones dropping it, we're trying to sort out what's acceptable for extras.ubuntu.com
<Pendulum> ajmitch: okay, couldn't tell who was making the final decision. Sorry!
<wendar> ajmitch: yes, agreed grub-customizer is better through the Debian process
<stgraber> ajmitch: right, I don't believe grub-customizer would be suitable for the ARB, so we should indeed drop it and help get it in Debian
<ajmitch> ok, I'll try & put aside some time for that & tell them in the rejection email :)
<ajmitch> so as a general rule, the AppReviewBoard/Review page is a good place to put the guidelines about what an app can do?
<wendar> ajmitch: It might be worth creating a simple AppReviewBoard/Review/Guidelines page
<ajmitch> alright
<wendar> that's just a list of "what we accept"
<ajmitch> I can add that, and a canned response on the Responses page
<stgraber> that'd be grat, thanks
<stgraber> *great
<wendar> awesome, thanks!
<stgraber> #action ajmitch to reply to grub-customizer and have the packaging process continue in Debian
<meetingology`> ACTION: ajmitch to reply to grub-customizer and have the packaging process continue in Debian
<ajmitch> stgraber: thanks, you're quicker than I am :)
<stgraber> #action ajmitch to work on AppReviewBoard/Review/Guidelines (basic list of guidelines for app going to extras.u.c and some canned responses)
<meetingology`> ACTION: ajmitch to work on AppReviewBoard/Review/Guidelines (basic list of guidelines for app going to extras.u.c and some canned responses)
<stgraber> I guess based on that page we can then go through the queue and do some mass rejection? (not sure how many we have but at least ubuntu-tweak should be rejected)
<ajmitch> there shouldn't be too many
<stgraber> good
<stgraber> #topic Complexity criteria of app submissions
* meetingology` changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ARB meeting Meeting | Current topic:  Complexity criteria of app submissions
<stgraber> so to quote what I said yesterday on IRC
<stgraber> 23:46 < stgraber> 15:41 <stgraber> I believe they are basically "no bundled libraries" (which gets us rid of 99% of the java stuff) and "no more code than a human can reasonably  read and  understand in an hour"
<stgraber> (yeah, I've been copy/pasting that one a few times ;))
<wendar> no bundled libraries at all?
<ajmitch> we did allow bundling some libraries if necessary, last time we sorted out rules
<ajmitch> just not bundling updated copies of what's in the archive
<wendar> like, if a python game uses a couple of self-written objects for data?
<wendar> ah, yes agreed
<ajmitch> certainly not bundling .jar files though :)
<highvoltage> that sounds very nice, especially for the arb reviewers, but wouldn't that make it hard to ship games?
<stgraber> if the "library"/"module" is part of the upstream code, fine
<stgraber> I just don't want to have apps containing bundled external libraries in their code
<highvoltage> (actually, scratch that, I was thinking of things like Oil Rush, but that's not even an ARB app in the first place)
<stgraber> because it becomes a security/bugfix/legal nightmare pretty quickly
<wendar> yup, we don't want to be maintaining that
<stgraber> not sure how we want to word it in the guidelines, but the idea is that we'd reject anything that bundles libraries/modules/whatever that can be found as a separate entity (so outside of the upstream project)
<wendar> We can word it mostly positively
<wendar> You can include any libraries that are part of your app, for example...
<stgraber> yeah, we should try to be a bit positive about it (though it's a bit difficult to make that kind of criteria positive ;)).
<wendar> If your app depends on external libraries, please make sure that your app runs on the current versions shipped in Ubuntu.
<ajmitch> it's also hard to make "your source is too big" positive :)
<wendar> (that implies a negative, but states it as a positive)
<stgraber> I'm sure we'd have submissions arguing on the "are part of your app" part saying that their upstream "source" tarball contains all these .jar and so it's "part of their app" :)
<stgraber> wendar: +1 for that one
<ajmitch> stgraber: fine, but we also have requirements that the app be buildable from source, afaik
<stgraber> ajmitch: indeed, which is why we should have rejected all of these with bundled .jar a long time ago
<ajmitch> the page links to the licensing policy which requires full source
<ajmitch> yeah, I should have rejected those that I've seen, sorry
<wendar> ajmitch: How about something like "Our focus is on lightweight apps. To give you a general idea, we're looking for the kind of apps that could be reviewed in about an hour reading through the code."
<ajmitch> wendar: that sounds good
<stgraber> wendar: that in addition to the "If your app depends on external libraries, please make sure that your app runs on the current versions shipped in Ubuntu." would be great
<ajmitch> an hour might be a little too lightweight, but it's a start
<wendar> yeah, I could see spending a couple of hours
<wendar> it's just to give them a rough guideline
<stgraber> with review here meaning just scanning through the code and figuring out what the app does, in that hour I didn't count licensing review or any actual testing of the app and packaging
<wendar> (and programmers always underestimate, so if we say one hour, we'll probably get 5)
<ajmitch> There's an empty page at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/AppReviewBoard/Review/Guidelines if you want to put them there
<stgraber> wendar: can you add these two to the guidelines?
<wendar> yes, will do
<stgraber> #action wendar to update AppReviewBoard/Review/Guidelines to include a note on bundling libraries and complexity (review time) criteria
<meetingology`> ACTION: wendar to update AppReviewBoard/Review/Guidelines to include a note on bundling libraries and complexity (review time) criteria
<stgraber> #topic General status of the ARB queue
* meetingology` changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ARB meeting Meeting | Current topic:  General status of the ARB queue
<stgraber> so the queue still looks pretty long
<ajmitch> it seems like the budapest sprint knocked a few off the list, and you've done a good job with getting some lenses in
<ajmitch> I'm trying to find spare time to focus on 1 or 2 apps at a time & try & get them through
<highvoltage> if there's something I should/could look at let me know
<ajmitch> highvoltage: 'all of the above'? :)
<stgraber> I'm not sure all the changes that were listed on the mailing list by non ARB members have been applied to the queue (these from Daniel and Michael), would be good to make sure they didn't do these reviews for nothing
<ajmitch> the myapps page looks to be sorted by submission date (or ID) now
<stgraber> ajmitch: seems to be by ID
<ajmitch> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/app-review-board/2012-January/000274.html
<ajmitch> ^ dholbach's reviews
<wendar> which would end up being by submission date, since they're auto-incrementing
<ajmitch> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/app-review-board/2012-January/000314.html
<ajmitch> ^ mvo's reviews
<stgraber> wendar: right, by initial submission date, not by last submission (which is shown as the Since. column)
<ajmitch> doesn't really matter about the particulars of the sorting, I was more suggesting we work from the top down, to get the oldest ones moving
<stgraber> highvoltage: can you look at these two e-mails and make sure the changes have been sent through myapps?
<highvoltage> stgraber: ok, I can do so tomorrow
<stgraber> #action highvoltage to make sure Daniel and Michael's review have been sent through MyApps
<meetingology`> ACTION: highvoltage to make sure Daniel and Michael's review have been sent through MyApps
<wendar> stgraber: aye, I guess last submission could be useful for watching what's been updated
<stgraber> wendar: indeed
<stgraber> anything else about the queue?
 * ajmitch has nothing more to add at the moment
<stgraber> Just a quick reminder to not touch the PendingQA ones, hopefully these will be moved to published soon (still waiting for the updated software-center)
<ajmitch> voting on the list seems to be a good way to do it
<stgraber> at the moment we need to use some hybrid MyApps/package metadata hack to get things to show up on the software-center, so before uploading a package to extras.ubuntu.com, please let me know and I'll make sure everything is right
<stgraber> #topic Chair for next meeting
* meetingology` changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ARB meeting Meeting | Current topic:  Chair for next meeting
<ajmitch> ok
<stgraber> any volunteer?
<highvoltage> ok I'll bite
 * ajmitch can do it, with sufficient caffeine
<stgraber> #action highvoltage to chair the next ARB meeting
<meetingology`> ACTION: highvoltage to chair the next ARB meeting
<stgraber> #topic AOB
* meetingology` changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ARB meeting Meeting | Current topic:  AOB
<stgraber> anything else?
<ajmitch> none from me
<highvoltage> nope, exhausted busy conferencing :)
<ajmitch> just a general note that filing bugs on developer-portal can be useful if there are things that annoy you about myapps
<highvoltage> (or from too much pizza)
<stgraber> #endmeeting
* meetingology` changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology`> Meeting ended Fri Jan 27 19:09:42 2012 UTC.
<meetingology`> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-01-27-18.25.moin.txt
<stgraber> ok, thanks everyone!
<ajmitch> stgraber: thank you
<highvoltage> thanks stgraber
#ubuntu-meeting 2012-01-29
<jokrebel> Hi
<toddy> Hi jokrebel
<MarkusH> hello
<Silverlion> AlanBell: reporting present for the meeting
<Fuchs> good evening :)
<Frickelpit> hi guys
<Silverlion> MarkusH: ein Hallo an den Landsmann ;)?
<AlanBell> evening
<MarkusH> Hallo Silverlion. Danke gleichfalls
<toddy> Silverlion: :D
<AlanBell> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Sun Jan 29 18:01:45 2012 UTC.  The chair is AlanBell. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/AlanBell/mootbot.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
<k1l> hi
<AlanBell> hi all
<Silverlion> hey there
<Frickelpit> huch, der k1l :)
<pangolin> o/
<AlanBell> well hi everyone
<oCean> o/
<AlanBell> Pici: funkyHat: o/
<LjL> hi
<Silverlion> To all the german Lubuntu-Users in here #invite to #lubuntu-de-offtopic
<AlanBell> we will get started soon and we won't exceed an hour this time, might end up deferring some items if we don't get through them
<pangolin> Pici funkyHat wake up!
 * Silverlion will follow the meeting but as i am complete newbie i will stand in the background
<AlanBell> hmm, seems I am all on my lonesome for the moment
<AlanBell> ah well, lets go anyhow
<AlanBell> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IRC/IrcCouncil/MeetingAgenda is the agenda
<AlanBell> #topic Review last meetings action items
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Review last meetings action items
<AlanBell> #progress ircc to move eir control channel to -ops-monitor if this will preserve existing ban timeouts - AlanBell
<AlanBell> this was done
<AlanBell> eir is now reporting ban expiry in #ubuntu-ops-monitor and is functioning just as it ever was
<pangolin> and is currently being ignored at a greater degree
<AlanBell> we can talk more about eir later in the main topic
<AlanBell> yes, it is a bit, if you have bans being nagged please deal with them one way or another
<AlanBell> anyhow, this item was done.
<pangolin> :)
<AlanBell> #topic Open items in the IRCC tracker
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Open items in the IRCC tracker
<AlanBell> there are none
<AlanBell> #topic Review Bugs related to the Ubuntu IRC Council
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Review Bugs related to the Ubuntu IRC Council
<AlanBell> #subtopic bug 788503 IRC Guidelines too #ubuntu centric - tsimpson
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 788503 in ubuntu-community "IRC Guidelines too #ubuntu centric" [Undecided,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/788503
<AlanBell> not much progress to report on this one, I believe we have a draft of some new guidelines, I have not reviewed it in detail yet
<AlanBell> anyone got anything else to say about this one?
<pangolin> there is an etherpad draft, yes. i don't have the link
<pangolin> last time I looked I think all it really needed was some clean up.
<AlanBell> ok, hopefully we will get time to do that and have something to report at the next meeting
<AlanBell> #subtopic bug 884671 Ubuntu IRC operator recruitment is slow and ungainly - jussi
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 884671 in ubuntu-community "Ubuntu IRC operator recruitment is slow and ungainly" [Undecided,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/884671
<AlanBell> well we have been doing some recruitment \o/
<pangolin> Welcome new members of the ops team!
<AlanBell> yes, welcome all
<AlanBell> lets move on from this bug, I think we can review it again later and see how we are doing
<AlanBell> #subtopic bug 892500 eir is still not fit for purpose in #ubuntu -ikonia
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 892500 in ubuntu-community "eir is still not fit for purpose in #ubuntu" [Undecided,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/892500
<AlanBell> so on this one we have moved the eir control channel out of -ops-team to make way for some new eir-like functionality from ubottu and/or floodbots
<LjL> From what I've gathered lately, most people seem to be happy with the idea of ubottu handling this instead of eir, but I think there is still a lot of implementation work to be done.
<pangolin> is there work being done on ubottu?
<AlanBell> indeed
<LjL> I think ubottu would be a better candidate (even though the FloodBots already have ops and ubottu doesn't), because it runs the bantracker.
<pangolin> I would much prefer we have one bot that can handle this
<pangolin> ubottu would be my choice as well
<ubottu> pangolin: I am only a bot, please don't think I'm intelligent :)
<AlanBell> I would like to get some names for people wanting to work on this and some actions happening by the next meeting
<pangolin> we know :)
<LjL> AlanBell: I *think* someone is experimenting with ubottu, because I've noticed some, erm, notices from it that weren't there in the past...?
<LjL> #ubuntu-bots-team is pretty silent lately, if there's work, it's being done quietly...
<pangolin> AlanBell: perhaps ask on the irc mailing list for some volunteers to help with ubottu? unless there are security issues that need to be considered
<AlanBell> ok, I can find out if someone has been doing stuff on ubottu
<AlanBell> http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-bots/ubuntu-bots/devel/changes not recently it seems
<AlanBell> ok, good suggestion pangolin, I will mail the list
<AlanBell> #action AlanBell to call for helpers to implement eir-like functionality in ubottu
<meetingology> ACTION: AlanBell to call for helpers to implement eir-like functionality in ubottu
<pangolin> AlanBell: i think the only thing would be bantracker access
<pangolin> but probably can be worked out
<AlanBell> yeah, we discussed that before, bantracker isn't a massive security worry
<LjL> AlanBell: on ubottu.com, some eir-related files were updated recently
<AlanBell> eir related files??
<pangolin> eir and ubottu do some chatting
<AlanBell> ok
<pangolin> something may have been changed in those files
<LjL> AlanBell: yes, I don't know whether it's what pangolin says, or a replacement for eir in the work.
<LjL> AlanBell: I can have a look, I have read access on it.
<AlanBell> ok, well lets figure out who wants to work on this and arrange a separate workshop on it
<AlanBell> moving on
<AlanBell> #subtopic bug 913541 there are a number of people with Ubuntu IRC cloaks who have expired from the ubuntumembers group - AlanBell
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 913541 in ubuntu-community "there are a number of people with Ubuntu IRC cloaks who have expired from the ubuntumembers group" [Undecided,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/913541
<AlanBell> there were 19, there are now 15 I think
<AlanBell> I spoke to those on the list who I could find online, I think one was not using an ubuntu cloak, another went for an unaffiliated cloak and the other two renewed their Ubuntu membership
<pangolin> those people are being contacted and cloaks removed if they chose not to renew?
<pangolin> cool
<AlanBell> one of them had let their MOTU membership expire intentionally and was transferred into the irc members group as a slighly unusual renewal
<AlanBell> we will go through the rest of the list and update next meeting
<AlanBell> #subtopic bug 916247 devel wiki on ubottu.com needs some attention - AlanBell
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 916247 in ubuntu-community "devel wiki on ubottu.com needs some attention" [Undecided,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/916247
<Silverlion> Question regarding cloak i have ;)
<pangolin> ask! :)
<Silverlion> do i need an ubuntu cloak ... my friends from SII gave me one...
<AlanBell> we only have cloaks for Ubuntu members, I will explain that a bit later, your current one is fine Silverlion
<Silverlion> AlanBell: copy that
<AlanBell> ok, so this bug, the wiki was full of spam, this has now been cleaned up \o/
<AlanBell> and registration turned off so it won't happen again
<AlanBell> we should still port the content to wiki.ubuntu.com, but that is a bit of a pain going from mediawiki to moin syntax
<AlanBell> ok, that concludes the bug list
<AlanBell> #topic Welcoming our new operators
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Welcoming our new operators
<AlanBell> yay, welcome to the new operators \o/
 * Silverlion puts some six-packs of beer into the middle of the room
<Silverlion> is kinda tradition to bring something into a new "job"
 * pangolin is looking forward to working with the new folks
<AlanBell> Benny Hult, Chris Druif, Jared Norris, Jens Leineweber, Mohana Kumar, Phill Whiteside, stlsaint, Unit 193 are the new operators we are welcoming to the core ops team
 * Silverlion listens to Jens ;)
<AlanBell> they have mostly all been invited to the -ops channel where they are voiced and the -ops-team channel, there are a couple who have been offline for the weekend and I haven't seen yet
<oCean> offline? :o
<oCean> :)
<Silverlion> an operator isn't supposed to have offline time, is he?
<Silverlion> :D
<AlanBell> there is an induction process that somewhat exists and we are adapting a bit, basically this runs to the precise release date
<AlanBell> oCean: does not compute!
<AlanBell> during the induction we are intending to run a handful of classes in the #ubuntu-classroom channel covering things like setting various types of bans, mediating with problem users, how the various bots work
<oCean> AlanBell: the new induction process starting from april?
<AlanBell> some of this will be useful as the #lubuntu channel grows
<AlanBell> oCean: ending then
<oCean> oh, I got it
<AlanBell> starting now, it is a 3 month thing, which as it starts now, takes us nicely up to the release
<oCean> yes, ok
<AlanBell> anyhow, the main point of it is to give us a timeframe in which to run these classes
<AlanBell> if this is a successful way to do induction I think I could see us doing it as a regular thing in line with the release cycle
<pleia2> it's nice to see such a process in place, as the project grows a lot of folks are put into positions of greater responsibility and some have felt they lack training
<Myrtti> I'm currently doing induction for freenode staffship, perhaps we could snatch some ideas and practises from there?
<AlanBell> so do another intake at the end of July across all our channels for the 12.10 release for example
<pangolin> o/ is all this going to be on the final? I just want to know what to study.
<oCean> hehe
<Myrtti> AlanBell: do we have a draft document or something for this, perhaps I could pitch in some ideas?
<AlanBell> anyhow, we are looking for volunteers to do various classes, please step forward
 * Myrtti has already volunteered for irssi 101
<AlanBell> Myrtti: yes, we have some draft ideas, not in great detail
<LjL> AlanBell: I could run some of them I guess. Not about any specific client like Myrtti (I use Konversation, not very widespread), but about the more generic stuff.
<AlanBell> anyhow, you will be hearing more from us this week about that
<AlanBell> LjL: I have you down for the bots one :)
<LjL> :)
<AlanBell> any more questions about #lubuntu and the new operators?
<AlanBell> ok, moving on then
<AlanBell> #topic IRCC meeting times
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: IRCC meeting times
<AlanBell> we want to have the meetings when people can get to them
<LjL> So apparently not at 18:00? :P
<AlanBell> the last meeting was the 11:00UTC saturday meeting and I had a lot of comments about it being inconvenient
<pangolin> This meeting time is great IMO the one that happens at 11:00 UTC blows chunks for me
<AlanBell> I emailed the list and asked if anyone wanted to speak up for that timeslot and had no reply
<AlanBell> elky: you were on holiday so might have missed that
<AlanBell> I kind of need the other IRCC members here to make any decisions on that, but I think we are agreed that the 11:00 UTC slot is mostly inconvenient and should be changed
<Myrtti> doodle / etc it?
<AlanBell> I will discuss with the rest of the IRCC and we will put it to the mailing list, if there are several options then a doodle poll
<AlanBell> #action meeting timeslots to be taken to the mailing list, 11:00UTC slot is in danger of being dropped
<meetingology> ACTION: meeting timeslots to be taken to the mailing list, 11:00UTC slot is in danger of being dropped
<AlanBell> #topic ubuntuuser.de - Fuchs toddy
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: ubuntuuser.de - Fuchs toddy
<AlanBell> hi Fuchs, toddy and co o/
<toddy> o/
<MarkusH> o/
<Frickelpit> hi
<Fuchs> hello :)
<AlanBell> so the background to this is that there has been a request to set up #ubuntusers namespace on freenode
<AlanBell> and this would be managed by part of the -de locoteam right?
<Fuchs> AlanBell: I can give a short introduction if you like
<AlanBell> please do
<Fuchs> (disclaimer: I am speaking as both a member of the #ubuntu-de operators and part of the ubuntuusers team)
<Fuchs> (however, I am not speaking as a freenode staffer)
<Fuchs> great. Okay, for the german speaking parts, there are two different teams, which are both part of the LoCo
<dax> (If you need someone to speak as a freenode staffer about this, hi)
<Fuchs> there is the team which manages #ubuntu-de, similar to other ubuntu support channels
<Fuchs> then there is the ubuntuusers.de portal, which is a portal consisting of a forum, a wiki, a news feed and a planet
<Fuchs> historically both have been managed by different teams, which, however, work together
<Fuchs> now a grf-f has been filed by the ubuntuusers team, so that we can manage #ubuntuusers, which does not really fall in the ubuntu namespace,
<Fuchs> plus which is not managed by the #ubuntu-de operators. This channel has been in place for quite a long time, and is where users can contact ubuntuusers team members regarding the portal
<Fuchs> We had contact with several people, including nhandler and dholbach, and most things are clear. However, there are some questions open, so we brought a bunch of people today to clear things up
<AlanBell> do you get many english language users arriving in the channel?
<Fuchs> we have MarkusH, toddy, Frickelpit and me from ubuntuusers.de, and k1l and me from #ubuntu-de
<Fuchs> AlanBell: maybe one user per two months or so, max
<AlanBell> ok, and I trust they are helpfully redirected to a more appropriate channel
<Pici> uhh..  My clock said the meeting starts in 15 minutes... my apologies.
<Fuchs> The ubuntuusers.de portal is officially part of the german Ubuntu e.V., there is no commercial company behind us  (and we are not afiliated with the ubuntu user magazine, two misinformations that were around)
<Fuchs> AlanBell: of course
<AlanBell> hi Pici
<Fuchs> so what we basically need is that one of you gives the okay to freenode staff, so that they can proceed the grf-f
<pangolin> Why not name the channel #ubuntu-de-portal or something similar so that it stays in the namespace?
<Fuchs> and then the ubuntuusers team will manage the #ubuntuusers channel, including cloaks to show people which team a team member is in. This helps a lot, since we have different teams on very different stuff (news suggestions, moderation stuff, tech stuff regarding the servers etc.)
<Fuchs> pangolin: because the team behind #ubuntu-de is a different one. Both are part of the LoCo, but it's different people. Ubuntuusers is a rather big thing (biggest german portal), so having the same team managing this would add quite some workload
<Fuchs> pangolin: also it has been like that for quite some time now, and most users are adapted to it. Also most links on wikis and other documentation is.
<AlanBell> ok, we passed on this request to the LoCo Council and the Community Council too, there was a suggestion from the LoCo council that it should be in the #ubuntu-de-* area too
<Pici> To me this sounds rather obvious then.  The IRC channels should reflect the organizational differences.
<pangolin> Fuchs: sounds reasonable.
<k1l> (as an ubuntu-de-op) im fine with that as long as the link for support to #ubuntu-de and for offtopic to #ubuntu-de-offtopic. we link to the wiki at ubuntuusers.de because its the best german linux wiki around
<LjL> I think pangolin has a point. You're part of the DE community but separate at the same time; Ubuntu has always had just "member" cloaks, so wouldn't this turn into a way to disperse the cloaks and the namespace?
<Fuchs> k1l: the link is set up like that in server error pages and wikis of ubuntuusers.de
<Fuchs> LjL: not really, since it's two different things
<AlanBell> I think it is clear that this is an existing situation, a well managed channel, and it is in the spirit of Ubuntu advocacy so tradmark use is fine
<Fuchs> LjL: I don't think that other local communities have the same situation with such a big portal
<pangolin> LjL: good point. I am not sure we want @ubuntuusers/member/ cloaks
<AlanBell> Fuchs: who would get the cloaks and what would an example one be?
<pangolin> it would cause confusion
<Fuchs> AlanBell: team members,  @ubuntuusers/serverteam/username   I think
<Fuchs> so it would not look like ubuntu member cloaks at all
<pangolin> yeah, I'm not happy with that. it still has ubuntu in it and couple imply membership status to the uninformed
<pangolin> could*
<Fuchs> I am quite sure that moving to a different namespace and beginning to mix up the two, including cloaks, will cause a lot more confusion among german users, which are used to the current situation for some years now
<Fuchs> so basically it would stay as is for the german ubuntu users, but the ubuntuusers team would have better possibilities of channel management
<Pici> Am I the only one not happy telling an existing Ubuntu advocacy group how to run their own organization?
<Fuchs> users would not be disturbed, #ubuntu-de Operators would not be disturbed and ubuntuusers people would be happy
<pangolin> Pici: I don't mind the channel name being #ubuntuusers. I don't like the idea of a separate cloak with the word Ubuntu in it.
<oCean> pangolin: I don't see why not, they're contributing to the project
<AlanBell> I am fine with that cloak format I think
<oCean> yes, I think it's a fine idea
<pangolin> then they should apply for membership like the rest of us did to get our cloak
<AlanBell> I suspect that most of the people getting that cloak would be well placed in terms of a significant and sustained contribution to get an Ubuntu member cloak
<Fuchs> pangolin: it's not the same as a membership cloak. It is also used to distinguish teams a bit
<Fuchs> AlanBell: probably, but it would add quite some administrative overhead
<pangolin> Fuchs: we don't do that in Ubuntu
<pangolin> we don't distinguish teams, we are all members
<AlanBell> Fuchs: I wasn't suggesting linking them in some way, just that you are not planning on handing them out to any random person who asks
<Fuchs> pangolin: it's for pragmatic reasons, when a user comes in the general team channel, he would have a better possibility to see which person he should contact
 * Pici agrees with AlanBell 
<Fuchs> pangolin: example: if a user wants to suggest a news article, he should contact one of our ikhaya (that's our news portal) members. Giving this suggestion to one of our server guys is just a detour :)
<Fuchs> AlanBell: definitely not
<Fuchs> AlanBell: we have standards definied on how you can join one of the team
<AlanBell> great
<Pici> Then I'm fine with that.
<Fuchs> AlanBell: and I am also not a big fan of handing them to every new member who just joined
<oCean> good to hear there's a proper process in place.
<Fuchs> good :)
<AlanBell> ok, maybe we should vote on this to confirm the decision
<pangolin> Fuchs: I disagree, the user can ask and then be directed to the correct team/person. That user should not need to /whois to see where to get help. anyway i am against adding a cloak with the word ubuntu in it. if that does happen I am going to fight for an ubuntero cloak that was declined years ago by the ircc
<dax> pangolin: as in ubuntu/ubuntero/*?
<Myrtti> is there even a possible quorum?
<pangolin> maybe @ubuntu/helper cloak
<Fuchs> pangolin: it would just be an additional measure. I am unfortunately not aware of any history regarding ubuntero cloaks, but I think you should feel free to bring that up again if you want
<AlanBell> Myrtti: yes, with pleia2
<Myrtti> ah
<AlanBell> #voters AlanBell Pici pleia2 funkyHat
<meetingology> Current voters: AlanBell Pici funkyHat pleia2
<pangolin>  I know a few people in #ubuntu who might like to have a @ubuntu/helper cloak
<Pici> We're not talking about adding additional levels to the Ubuntu cloak namespace. We're talking about ubuntuusers.
<pangolin> yeah i am fine with the channel.
<AlanBell> #vote the IRCC agrees not to object to the #ubuntuusers GRF
<meetingology> Please vote on: the IRCC agrees not to object to the #ubuntuusers GRF
<meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (private votes don't work yet, but when they do it will be by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0 to me)
<AlanBell> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from AlanBell
<pleia2> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from pleia2
<Pici> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from Pici
<AlanBell> not sure funkyHat is awake
<AlanBell> #endvote
<meetingology> Voting ended on: the IRCC agrees not to object to the #ubuntuusers GRF
<meetingology> Votes for:3 Votes against:0 Abstentions:0
<meetingology> Motion carried
<toddy> thank you all. :)
<Fuchs> Thank you very much :)
<MarkusH> thank you very much
<Fuchs> feel free to poke me if you need some further information or whatever :)
<dax> pleia2: I take it Ubuntu CC decided to delegate the decision to IRCC and isn't going to object in and of themselves?
<AlanBell> ok, thanks Fuchs
<pleia2> dax: IRC-based decisions arealways delegated to the IRCC, the CC only gets involved if it's escalated
<dax> pleia2: thanks
<christel> i must admit that i think it's pretty impressive that the ubuntu community is such that whilst the project's GRF would be entirely fine standing on it's own feet from a freenode pov, you have created an atmosphere in which people come and ask for your approval regardless
<AlanBell> dax: the CC was notified, and we considered the trademark implications
<christel> many ++'s!
<oCean> :)
<AlanBell> ok, we have a bunch of items on the agenda that we have not got to yet, but we are out of time
<AlanBell> I don't see any of them being urgent so I am intending to defer them to the next meeting in about 2 weeks, time to be discussed but probably not on Saturday morning
<AlanBell> #topic Any Other Business
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Any Other Business
<AlanBell> anyone got any other pressing matter to raise?
<AlanBell> ok, thanks very much everyone
<AlanBell> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Sun Jan 29 19:08:28 2012 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-01-29-18.01.moin.txt
<topyli> very sorry for being so very late. isn't it ircc meeting time?
<Myrtti> lol
<Myrtti> you arrived on the same minute #endvote was declared
<Myrtti> I mean #endmeeting
<Pici> topyli: both our clocks said it started 11 minutes ago :(
<oCean> (:
<topyli> i'm a full hour late?
<Pici> topyli: I happened to show up 'early' for that.
<Pici> topyli: yes. me too, sort of.
<topyli> grr
 * Silverlion waves and leaves
<Myrtti> here's a trick: add Reykjavik into your locations
<Myrtti> they're using UTC.
<Fuchs> right, have a nice day / evening folks, thank you again, and as said, feel free to poke me if you need something more :)
<topyli> it's the daylight savings. i have no sense of time anymore
<Myrtti> topyli: Iceland doesn't have DST either
<topyli> russia also abandoned it, afaik
<Myrtti> but they're not on UTC timezone ;-)
<topyli> no, but at least they're on the *same* timezone all the time
<Myrtti> well the point I was trying to make was that if you've got Reykjavik as a location in your Gnome/whatever clock, you can use it to check the meeting times
<topyli> i like this one: http://www.worldtimebuddy.com/
<topyli> you can live whereever you want, just check it :)
<AlanBell> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/IRCC/20120129
<dax> Good desktop environments also feature the ability to put UTC in your clock.
<dax> If memory serves, the Evolution people also fixed my bug about UTC not working in Evolution calendar :)
<topyli> even gnome used to have that!
<topyli> anyway, i should have been here at 20 not 21 and now my super-political agenda is lost. the sane people have won. what will we do!
<jokrebel> bye
<MarkusH> see you, and thanks again
#ubuntu-meeting 2013-01-21
<akakako> I AM HERE TO MEET UBUNTU
<akakako> IS UBUNTU HERE?
<akakako> I AM HERE TO MEET UBUNTU
<akakako> I AM HERE TO MEET UBUNTU
<akakako> I AM HERE TO MEET UBUNTU
<sirdancealot1> the funny is strong in this one
 * stgraber waves
<pitti> bonsoir tout le monde
<cjwatson> hi
<stgraber> Guten Abend pitti!
<soren> o/
<stgraber> #startmeeting Technical Board meeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Mon Jan 21 21:01:41 2013 UTC.  The chair is stgraber. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Technical Board meeting Meeting | Current topic:
<stgraber> #topic Action review
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Technical Board meeting Meeting | Current topic:  Action review
<stgraber> None that I can see on the wiki or remember
<stgraber> #topic SRU MAAS and its dependencies - AndresRodriguez (roaksoax)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Technical Board meeting Meeting | Current topic:  SRU MAAS and its dependencies - AndresRodriguez (roaksoax)
<pitti> hm, did I miss an email to tb@, or is that IRC discussion matter?
<stgraber> soren: you mentioned this item in your meeting reminder but I don't see it on the wiki or the ML :)
<stgraber> pitti: good, it's not just me who's missing an e-mail ;)
<soren> stgraber: How do you not see in on the wiki? https://wiki.ubuntu.com/TechnicalBoardAgenda?action=diff&rev1=473&rev2=474
<cjwatson> but it's been removed ...
<cjwatson> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/TechnicalBoardAgenda?action=diff&rev2=474&rev1=473
<soren> I  just pinged Andres in #ubuntu-server.
<cjwatson> (er, that URL is effectively the same as yours)
<soren> Er..
<stgraber> right, was removed a few hours ago by Andres, probably because of today being a public holiday where he lives
<soren> Hm, ok.
<stgraber> alright, moving on then :)
<soren> Sorry about the confusion. :)
<soren> It really was there when I sent out that e-mail :)
<stgraber> not your fault, your e-mail was right when you sent it, it's just my fault for not thinking of digging into wiki history ;)
<stgraber> #topic Scan the mailing list archive for anything we missed (standing item)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Technical Board meeting Meeting | Current topic:  Scan the mailing list archive for anything we missed (standing item)
<stgraber> Looks like we took care of everything by e-mail and don't have anything to discuss here
<cjwatson> either we rock or are very boring
<stgraber> I prefer to think the former ;)
<stgraber> #topic Check up on community bugs (standing item)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Technical Board meeting Meeting | Current topic:  Check up on community bugs (standing item)
<stgraber> "
<stgraber> There are currently no open bugs.
<stgraber> "
<stgraber> #topic Select a chair for the next meeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Technical Board meeting Meeting | Current topic:  Select a chair for the next meeting
<kees> apologies for my lateness. here now
<stgraber> so, who's next?
<kees> I haven't run one in a while.
<soren> I forget, do we go by name or irc nick?
<kees> I think it's been by name.
<stgraber> I think I'm last by both firstname and irc nick and Colin is first in both cases, so I guess it's cjwatson
<pitti> traditionally by order on https://launchpad.net/~techboard/+members I think
<cjwatson> fine by me
<stgraber> #action cjwatson to chair the next TB meeting
<meetingology> ACTION: cjwatson to chair the next TB meeting
<stgraber> #topic AOB
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Technical Board meeting Meeting | Current topic:  AOB
 * stgraber waves to mdz 
<stgraber> anything, anyone?
<pitti> nothing from me
<pitti> FYI, still waiting for replies on the brainstorm review
<mdz> hi
<mdz> sorry I'm late
<stgraber> that's fine, not much to discuss, we've done everything by e-mail already :)
 * kees nods
<stgraber> alright, see you all in two weeks then!
<stgraber> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Mon Jan 21 21:10:38 2013 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes (wiki):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2013/ubuntu-meeting.2013-01-21-21.01.moin.txt
<meetingology> Minutes (html):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2013/ubuntu-meeting.2013-01-21-21.01.html
<cjwatson> Ha, I just got the Google Calender reminder for this meeting
<cjwatson> er, thanks, Mountain View
<stgraber> ;)
<kees> thanks stgraber!
<pitti> thanks everyone
<pitti> and good night!
#ubuntu-meeting 2013-01-22
<rbasak> Hello all. The Canonical server team leads are both away at a company sprint this week, so I'm not sure it's worth having a meeting. Does anyone want one anyway, or shall we skip it?
<smb> skip (not that my opinion would matter that much here ) :)
<hallyn> skip is fine with me
<hallyn> toodles :)
<rbasak> OK let's skip.
<arosales> rbasak: looks like ubuntu-server meeting was cancelled for today, correct
<rbasak> arosales: correct, just before you joined.
<arosales> rbasak: ok, thanks. Sorry I joined late :-/
<trijntje> Hi all, is this the kernel team meeting?
<jsalisbury> #startmeeting
<jsalisbury> ##
<jsalisbury> ## This is the Ubuntu Kernel Team weekly status meeting.
<jsalisbury> ##
<jsalisbury> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/Meeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Tue Jan 22 17:01:29 2013 UTC.  The chair is jsalisbury. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
<jsalisbury> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/ReleaseStatus/raring
<jsalisbury> # Meeting Etiquette
<jsalisbury> #
<jsalisbury> # NOTE: '..' indicates that you are finished with your input.
<jsalisbury> #       'o/' indicates you have something to add (please wait until you are recognized)
<jsalisbury> Roll Call for Ubuntu Kernel Weekly Status Meeting
<ppisati> o/
<arges> o/
<henrix> o/
<bjf> o/
<herton> o/
<sforshee> o/
<ogasawara> o/
<cking> o/
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] ARM Status (ppisati)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: ARM Status (ppisati)
<ppisati> R/master: still working on multiplatform, USB finally works for omap and imx, i'm getting close to a first release
<ppisati> ..
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] Release Metrics and Incoming Bugs (jsalisbury)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Release Metrics and Incoming Bugs (jsalisbury)
<ogasawara> ppisati: sweet!
<ppisati> ogasawara: wait until i send the pull req :)
<jsalisbury> Release metrics and incoming bug data can be reviewed at the following link:
<jsalisbury> [LINK] http://people.canonical.com/~kernel/reports/kt-meeting.txt
<jsalisbury> ..
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] Milestone Targeted Work Items (ogasawara)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Milestone Targeted Work Items (ogasawara)
<ogasawara> [LINK] https://launchpad.net/~canonical-kernel-distro-team/+upcomingwork
<ogasawara> || apw         || hardware-r-kernel-config-review       || 9 work items ||
<ogasawara> ||             || hardware-r-delta-review               || 4 work items ||
<ogasawara> ||             || hardware-r-arm-kernel-maintenance     || 2 work items ||
<ogasawara> ||             || hardware-r-kernel-misc                || 4 work items ||
<ogasawara> ||             || foundations-r-x32-planning            || 2 work items ||
<ogasawara> ||             || desktop-r-clean-old-kernels           || 1 work item  ||
<ogasawara> || ogasawara   || hardware-r-kernel-config-review       || 2 work items ||
<ogasawara> || ppisati     || hardware-r-kernel-config-review       || 1 work item  ||
<ogasawara> ||             || hardware-r-kernel-version-and-flavors || 2 work items ||
<ogasawara> ||             || hardware-r-delta-review               || 1 work item  ||
<ogasawara> || sconklin    || hardware-r-arm-power-measurement      || 3 work items ||
<ogasawara> || rtg         || hardware-r-delta-review               || 1 work item  ||
<ogasawara> ..
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] Status: Raring Development Kernel (ogasawara)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Status: Raring Development Kernel (ogasawara)
<ogasawara> We have rebased the Raring kernel to the latest v3.8-rc4 upstream
<ogasawara> kernel and uploaded last week.  Please test and let us know your
<ogasawara> results.
<ogasawara> Important upcoming dates:
<ogasawara>  * Raring:
<ogasawara>   * Mon Feb 18 - 13.04 Month 4 Milestone (~4 weeks)
<ogasawara>  * Precise:
<ogasawara>   * Thu Feb 14 - 12.04.2 Release (~3 weeks)
<ogasawara> ..
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] Status: CVE's (henrix)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Status: CVE's (henrix)
<henrix> Currently we have 35 CVEs on our radar, with 1 CVE added and 1 CVE retired this week.
<henrix> See the CVE matrix for the current list:
<henrix> [LINK] http://people.canonical.com/~kernel/cve/pkg/ALL-linux.html
<henrix> The backlog hasn't change this week:
<henrix> [LINK] http://people.canonical.com/~kernel/status/cve-metrics.txt
<henrix> [LINK] http://people.canonical.com/~kernel/cve/pkg/CVE-linux.txt
<henrix> ..
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] Status: Stable, Security, and Bugfix Kernel Updates - Quantal/Precise/Oneiric/Lucid/Hardy (bjf/herton/henrix)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Status: Stable, Security, and Bugfix Kernel Updates - Quantal/Precise/Oneiric/Lucid/Hardy (bjf/herton/henrix)
<henrix> As noted last week, we're skipping a kernel SRU cadence to allow for an additional 3 weeks of testing for the kernel that will ship with the 12.04.2 point release.
<henrix> Future stable cadence cycles:
<henrix>  * https://wiki.ubuntu.com/RaringRingtail/ReleaseInterlock
<henrix> ..
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] Open Discussion or Questions? Raise your hand to be recognized (o/)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Open Discussion or Questions? Raise your hand to be recognized (o/)
<trijntje> o/
<jsalisbury> trijntje, go ahead
<trijntje> There is a bug I reported against ubuntu-defaults-builder, where iso builds fail only for quantal 64 bit due to an error configuring the kernel
<trijntje> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/quantal/+source/ubuntu-defaults-builder/+bug/1075876
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 1075876 in ubuntu-defaults-builder (Ubuntu Quantal) "ubuntu-defaults-builder: only quantal 64bit does not build" [Undecided,Confirmed]
<trijntje> ubuntu-defaults-builder is a project that allows easy creation of localised ubuntu iso's, geared towards a certain geographical region. Customization options are: local radiostations, extra programs (for example, dutch tax return software), custom unity launchers (for example: to popular news sites or the LoCo team webpage), etc.
<trijntje> I was hoping someone who knows about the kernel could take a look at it and maybe point me in the right direction
<trijntje> ..
<jsalisbury> trijntje, sure, I can review it for you and point you to the right person if needed.
<jsalisbury> ..
<jsalisbury> Any other open discussions?
<trijntje> jsalisbury: that would be great! That bug has been sitting there for quite some time, and I don't have the knowhow to investigate it myself.
<trijntje> ..
<jsalisbury> trijntje, np.  I'll review and update the bug.
<jsalisbury> ..
<trijntje> jsalisbury: Thanks!
<jsalisbury> Thanks everyone
<jsalisbury> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Tue Jan 22 17:10:26 2013 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes (wiki):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2013/ubuntu-meeting.2013-01-22-17.01.moin.txt
<meetingology> Minutes (html):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2013/ubuntu-meeting.2013-01-22-17.01.html
<cking> thanks jsalisbury
#ubuntu-meeting 2013-01-23
<srwood> #kernal
<stokachu> o/
<cjwatson> brains
 * slangasek waves
<slangasek> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Wed Jan 23 16:01:09 2013 UTC.  The chair is slangasek. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
 * stgraber waves
<slangasek> [TOPIC] lightning round
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: lightning round
<slangasek> $ echo $(shuf -e barry doko stgraber jodh ev bdmurray slangasek ogra cjwatson xnox stokachu)
<slangasek> jodh stokachu stgraber bdmurray ogra doko xnox barry slangasek ev cjwatson
<jodh> * blueprints:
<jodh>   - foundations-r-upstart-stateful-re-exec: DONE
<jodh>   - foundations-r-upstart-roadmap: NOPROGRESS
<jodh>   - foundations-r-arm-ubiquity: NOPROGRESS (btw - who assigned 'implement reboot in the oem-config' to me?)
<jodh>   - foundations-r-upstart-user-session-enhancements:
<jodh>     - Updated spec updates for shutdown and event prefixing.
<jodh>     - Reworked workitems plan.
<jodh>     - Reviewed and merged lp:~stgraber/upstart/upstart-session-socket.
<jodh>     - Reviewed and merged lp:~xnox/upstart/user-log-dir.
<jodh>     - Reviewed lp:~stgraber/upstart/upstart-make-event-bridge-usable.
<jodh>     - Worked on removal of existing sessions code.
<jodh>     - Worked on adding list-sessions.
<jodh>     - Worked on setenv+getenv branch.
<jodh> * upstart
<jodh>     - Tweaked lp:~jamesodhunt/upstart/bug-881885 after comments from cjwatson.
<jodh>     - Uploaded fix for bug 1096531.
<ubottu> bug 1096531 in upstart "After touch /forcefsck and reboot: Assertion failed in log_clear_unflushed" [High,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1096531
<jodh>     - discussions with kernel team re kernel image 'boot hang' (which
<jodh>       looks to be a conflation of bug 1096531 and a kernel issue
<jodh>       resulting in no console output).
<jodh> * misc:
<jodh>     - FOSDEM admin.
<jodh> ð­
<slangasek> hum, "reboot in oem-config" doesn't sound familiar to me
<jodh>  
<stokachu> bug 1023069 - Havent had a chance to dig into this one but wanted to know UE has come across this in testing
<stokachu> bug 1078103 - Some of the partners listed are in this meeting, wanted to get some feedback on what we were doing for providing acroread across arch's and distro's.
<stokachu> http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=698329 - working on getting sosreport packaged and included into Debian
<ubottu> bug 1023069 in debian-installer (Ubuntu) "Packages was corrupt" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1023069
<ubottu> bug 1078103 in acroread (Ubuntu) "Still no acroread for 64 bit precise" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1078103
<stokachu> currently working on this merge: https://merges.ubuntu.com/a/aptitude/REPORT
<cjwatson> 881885> I approved that modulo conflicts
<ubottu> Debian bug 698329 in wnpp "ITP: sos -- This set of tools is designed to provide information to support organizations" [Wishlist,Open]
<stokachu> (done)
<stgraber> Feature work:
<stgraber>  - Upstart (BLUEPRINT: foundations-r-upstart-user-session-enhancements)
<stgraber>   - Some more work on the session socket code, now merged upstream.
<stgraber>   - Worked a bit on the event bridge to make it work with the session socket and handle pid files properly.
 * xnox vaguelly recollects info about it. jodh: it may be related to hostname changes (e.g. reboot to update hostname everywhere)
<stgraber>   - Planning the next steps (jobs, packaging, landing).
<stgraber>  - Container (BLUEPRINT: servercloud-r-lxc)
<stgraber>   - Code reviews.
<stgraber>   - Planning 0.9~alpha3.
<stgraber>  - Networking (BLUEPRINT: foundations-r-networking)
<stgraber>   - Merged isc-dhcp-server and fixed a few bugs in the process (bug 1071928, bug 1088682 and bug 930962)
<stgraber>   - Merged resolvconf and fixed a few bugs in the process (bug 1085756 and bug 1085862)
<ubottu> bug 1071928 in isc-dhcp (Ubuntu Quantal) "isc-dhcp-server-ldap (4.2.4-1ubuntu10.1) is not capable of ldap" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1071928
<stgraber>   - Prepared experimental version of isc-dhcp-server with Infiniband support, waiting for test results before pushing to the archive.
<ubottu> bug 1088682 in isc-dhcp (Ubuntu Quantal) "dhclient does not register hostname to dynamic DNS (AD)" [Medium,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1088682
<stgraber> Other work:
<ubottu> bug 930962 in isc-dhcp (Ubuntu) "dhcp3-server reports many bad udp checksums to syslog using virtio NIC" [Medium,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/930962
<ubottu> bug 1085756 in resolvconf (Ubuntu) "/etc/ppp/ip-up.d/000resolvconf doesn't check if envvar USEPEERDNS is set" [Undecided,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1085756
<stgraber>  - Installer
<ubottu> bug 1085862 in resolvconf (Ubuntu) "#DEBHELPER# token is in the wrong place, and other resolvconf postinst nits" [Undecided,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1085862
<stgraber>   - SRUed fix for casper bug 984276
<ubottu> bug 984276 in casper (Ubuntu Precise) "installing casper on a non live system causes update-initramfs to fail" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/984276
<stgraber>  - Other
<stgraber>   - Helped debug some qemu/libvirt interactions (bug 1102487)
<ubottu> bug 1102487 in libvirt (Ubuntu) "VM won't boot after recent qemu upgrade" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1102487
<stgraber>   - Patch pilot on Monday
<stgraber> TODO:
<stgraber>  - Follow-up on state of the lxc and libseccomp MIRs.
<stgraber>  - Try to finish any LXC feature work for this cycle (2 items left).
<stgraber>  - Prepare some upstart user session debs with all our patches and the initial Xsession scripts and upstart jobs.
<stgraber>  - Start the work on (BLUEPRINT: foundations-r-improving-dist-upgrades).
<stgraber> (DONE)
<cjwatson> stokachu: 1023069> I think that should have been a new bug rather than dogpiling on an existing one, but regardless: please get the affected user to upload a full installer syslog (they can extract it by going back to the main menu and selecting "save debug logs", or by running 'anna-install openssh-client-udeb' from a shell and using scp)
<bdmurray> * blueprints
<bdmurray> foundations-r-phased-update: I'm working on parts of this
<stokachu> cjwatson: ok would you prefer a new bug ? ill re-expire this one and create a new one with that info
<jodh> xnox: yes I recall discussions where we decided it would be safest to reboot, but don't remember getting assigned the workitem :)
<cjwatson> stokachu: the business about Packages.gz being 20 bytes (i.e. gzip of an empty file) is likely a red herring since that's probably as intended on a CD
<cjwatson> stokachu: nah, might as well continue with this now
<cjwatson> stokachu: just for the next time :)
<bdmurray> foundations-r-improving-dist-upgrades: no progress
<stokachu> cjwatson: sure thing ill make sure support knows as well not to piggy back off stuff like that
<bdmurray> foundations-r-crash-database: I'm working on a team view for errors.ubuntu.com
<bdmurray> foundations-r-sru-queue-velocity: no progress
<bdmurray> other:
<bdmurray> submitted and merged a merge proposal for the subscriber packages view on errors
<bdmurray> reported bug 1103156 regarding most_common_problems.js and user parameter
<ubottu> bug 1103156 in Errors "not possible to use user parameter on front page of errors" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1103156
<cjwatson> stokachu: Yeah, sometimes it makes sense but more often than not it doesn't
<bdmurray> posted on blog regarding source package searching on errors.ubuntu.com
<bdmurray> discovered that the Launchpad API does not serve ETags with collections thereby making it harder to cache them
<slangasek> stokachu: bug #1023069> xnox's reply seems definitive, this should only happen if there's a network problem?
<bdmurray> research into update-manager phased updates support in Q
<ubottu> bug 1023069 in debian-installer (Ubuntu) "Packages was corrupt" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1023069
<bdmurray> investigation into lsb-release crash - bug 1094218
<ubottu> bug 1094218 in lsb (Ubuntu) "lsb_release crashed with IOError in getstatusoutput(): [Errno 10] No child processes" [Medium,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1094218
<bdmurray> investigation into bug 1096022 and upgrade test failing
<ubottu> bug 1096022 in update-manager (Ubuntu) ""E:Error, pkgProblemResolver::Resolve generated breaks" during lucid->precise universe upgrade of amd64" [Medium,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1096022
<bdmurray> investigation into wubi bug 1093819
<ubottu> bug 1093819 in Wubi "Wubi installed 12.10 amd64 without configuring i386" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1093819
<bdmurray> verified P SRU of autofs5 - bug 488696
<bdmurray> had a holiday
<ubottu> bug 488696 in autofs5 (Ubuntu Precise) "syntax error in nsswitch config near [ syntax error ]" [High,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/488696
<bdmurray> uploaded apport fix for bug 1100198
<ubottu> bug 1100198 in apport (Ubuntu) "source_linux.py logic fails to detect 3.8.0-0-generic as an Ubuntu kernel" [High,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1100198
<bdmurray> â done
<cjwatson> slangasek: *should* - worth a double-check though if it's affecting a customer
<ogra_> done:
<ogra_>  * added preseed.cfg support to nexus7 images
<ogra_>  * added shell script that makes auto-rotation of the nexus7 work
<ogra_>  * fixed various gsettings issues
<ogra_>  * updated onboard settings on the nexus7 for new features (proper docking support)
<ogra_>  * various discussions about nexus7 work
<ogra_>  * started the weekly nexus7 status meeting on fridays again
<ogra_>  * hunting down IS to somehow get an arm livefs builder again
<ogra_> todo:
<ogra_>  * port nx7 images to xz compression (blocked on missing livefs builder)
<ogra_>  * discuss livefs builder situation with infinity (carried over from last week, blocked on builder)
<ogra_>  * fix plymouth vs console-setup racing somehow (likely needs cjwatson advice) to allow initrd-less booting
<ogra_>  * port update-notifier to pkexec to fix onboard vs gksu issues
<ogra_>  * add lux script for making the ambient light sensor work on the nexus7
<ogra_> ..
<doko> * blueprint cross building: should be done (there wasn't much in the blueprint i
<doko> tself)
<doko> * fixed the armhf and armel cross compilers (still need the armel one, because d
<doko> pkg-cross can't handle arm biarch, and getting rid of dpkg-cross would require m
<doko> ore work)
<cjwatson> likely needs cjwatson staring at a wall for an hour trying to remember ...
<doko> * looking at python3 and twisted
<doko> * started backporting python3 cross build patches to 2.7.
<doko> * updated GCC to the Linaro 2013-01 release.
<doko> * updated my notebook to raring, now having the fan constantly running :-(
<doko> (done)
<ogra_> cjwatson, you mean the console-setup stuff ?
<ogra_> heh
<xnox> foundations-r-upstart-user-session-enhancements:
<xnox> * implement review comments in the lp:~xnox/upstart/user-log-dir
<xnox>   Approved and merged now.
<xnox> foundations-r-arm-usb-creator-fastboot-support:
<xnox> * Started UI and backend implementation. Usb-creator can auto-launch
<xnox> upon plugging in a nexus7 device (with a hack), nexus7 devices
<slangasek> stokachu: wrt bug #1078103, I thought Adobe was no longer giving us distribution rights in any event
<xnox> appear. It doesn't yet successfully flash nexus7. Hoping to have a PPA
<ubottu> bug 1078103 in acroread (Ubuntu) "Still no acroread for 64 bit precise" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1078103
<xnox> spec, setup secure-boot VM (with OVMF) to verify/fix Secure Boot
<xnox> support in usb-creator.
<xnox> ubiquity:
<xnox> * Working on a couple preseeding bugs for QA (nfs & oem-config preseeds)
<xnox> TODO:
<xnox> * lvm2 merge to continue shipping clvm
<xnox> * mdadm merge from experimental to bring in improved isms support.
<xnox> ..
<cjwatson> ogra_: yeah
<barry> short week due to usa holiday.  bug 1100408.  bug 1077087.  bug 1077092.  bug 1102715.  bug 1102621.  reviewed lp:~mitya57/ubuntu/raring/python3-defaults/resync will approve/upload unless doko objects.  uploaded python3-whoosh to ppa for testing as xapian replacement.
<ubottu> bug 1100408 in software-center (Ubuntu) "Update Depends for new oneconf packaging" [Undecided,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1100408
<barry> foundations-r-python3-oauth: 2 bugs fix committed; all other bugs in progress with branches having mps awaiting review (with a couple waiting for imminent new upstream release).
<ubottu> bug 1077087 in Ubuntu Single Sign On Client "Switch from python-oauth to python-oauthlib" [Undecided,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1077087
<ubottu> bug 1077092 in Ubuntu One storage protocol "Switch from python-oauth to python-oauthlib" [Undecided,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1077092
<ubottu> bug 1102715 in OneConf "oneconf-query crashed with ImportError in /usr/bin/oneconf-query: No module named oneconf.version" [High,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1102715
<ubottu> bug 1102621 in Twisted Buildbot Configuration "xvfb failed to start" [Undecided,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1102621
<barry> foundations-r-python-versions: updated blueprint work items.
<barry> foundations-r-python33: see above merge proposal for last remaining TODO.
<barry> done
<xnox> slangasek: https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/acroread/9.5.1-1precise1/+build/3404003 seems to part of the problem.
<xnox> stokachu: it failed to build for amd64 in precise, which may be something we should fix or not.
<stokachu> xnox: do we have a general consensus on if we are going to continue building acroread?
<cjwatson> presumably we need to find out if we have continued permission to redistribute before a consensus from this team means anything
<stokachu> do i ask legal about that?
<slangasek> ogra_: "Somehow get an arm livefs builder again" - do we not currently have one?
<cjwatson> I've lost track of who's responsible for partner agreements; presumably somebody with OEM in their title
<ogra_> slangasek, not since four days, nope
<slangasek> ogra_: is there an RT for this?
<slangasek> ogra_: (please cc: me to it)
<ogra_> slangasek, seems there is some kind of machine moving going on in the DC
<cjwatson> or actually maybe ISV
<ogra_> no, RT, i am constantly in #is though, in conversation with ChrisS
<ogra_> he said there would be hope that everything is connected up again later today
<slangasek> doko: wrt cross-compilation, the main deliverable that we need here is high-level documentation in wiki.ubuntu.com telling people how to use everything; does that exist already?
<cjwatson> slangasek: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CrossBuilding shouldn't be too bad now
<doko> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CrossBuilding
<slangasek> xnox: mdadm> did you see my bug assignment to you wrt mdadm's degraded mode initramfs handling?
<doko> right, maybe I should extend this how to use it with just dpkg-buildpackage
<cjwatson> stokachu: My best guess after some trawling through the directory and the wiki would be to try David Duffey
<stokachu> cjwatson: ok thanks ill shoot him an email and get some confirmation on that
<xnox> slangasek: now, i did.
<slangasek> ogra_: please open an RT for this issue (and in general, for issues like this that are taking longer than they should) so that IS knows it's a priority - not just the person you're talking with in #is at the time
<ogra_> k
<slangasek> stokachu: please cc: me on your mail to dduffey
<stokachu> slangasek: rgr that
<xnox> slangasek: will include it in the upcomming upload.
<slangasek> ta
<slangasek>  * short week, US holiday this Monday
<slangasek>  * pulled into a number of meetings last week at the client sprint
<slangasek>  * ongoing discussions with folks around Kylin
<slangasek>  * tried to reproduce bug #1094218 (and failed), though there is strong confirmation it's specific to TeamViewer
<ubottu> bug 1094218 in lsb (Ubuntu) "lsb_release crashed with IOError in getstatusoutput(): [Errno 10] No child processes" [Medium,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1094218
<slangasek>  * fielding various mountall, plymouth bug reports; mountall once again is too fast (bug #1103047)
<ubottu> bug 1103047 in mountall (Ubuntu) "mountall causes automatic mounting of gluster shares to fail" [Low,Incomplete] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1103047
<slangasek>  * head-scratching over bug #1100247
<ubottu> bug 1100247 in shim (Ubuntu Raring) "Unable to install Ubuntu on laptop without enabling Legacy mode" [High,Incomplete] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1100247
<slangasek>  * double dose of SRU processing last week, as the queue is rather long
<slangasek>  * FOSDEM planning
<slangasek>  * TODO this week:
<slangasek>   * hunt down gnu-efi regression affecting shim
<slangasek>   * systemd packaging
<slangasek>  * BP status:
<slangasek>   * foundations-r-secure-boot: in progress er the above
<slangasek>   * foundations-r-improve-cross-compilation: stalled; will look at this next month
<slangasek>   * foundations-r-opt-installation: no progress to report; will start on this next month
<slangasek> (done)
<slangasek> bdmurray: did you have any more luck reproducing bug #1094218 than I did?
<slangasek> I'm not seeing anything in teamviewer that explains why this would break
<ev> Week of January 17th
<ev> - Continued work on the prodstack error tracker deployment.
<ev>   - I've now got it deployed and working end-to-end in Amazon EC2, including
<ev>     using S3 to store core dumps. \o/
<ev>   - Provided set up instructions in the RT and at
<ev>     https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ErrorTracker/Deployment#Prodstack
<ev>   - Started looking into getting the existing Nagios hooks implemented.
<bdmurray> slangasek: no, I'm working on reproducing that dist upgrade bug
<slangasek> ok
<ev> - Finishing up my apport branch to group system-internal error reports with the
<ev>   next desktop application error report. Just need to fix a few more failing
<ev>   tests (that expect lone system reports to produce a UI) and it will be ready
<ev>   for review.
<ev> - Meeting with Andy and Stefan to discuss how we can better handle error
<ev>   reports from the kernel.
<ev>   - They're going to write an in-kernel replacement for kerneloops.
<ev>   - We'll create something similar to the failed to suspend mechanism for
<ev>     reporting when the system has hard locked, somewhat replacing the
<ev>     /var/crash/vmcore approach.
<ev> - Started investigating how we can translate Breakpad-generated error reports
<ev>   into Apport reports:
<ev>   https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ErrorTracker/BreakpadApplicationSupport
<ev> - Code review.
<ev> Blueprints:
<ev> https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/foundations-r-crash-database
<ev> - Work with the kernel team now done, with the remaining tasks handed over to them.
<ev> - Errors from Debconf dialogs and graphical application hangs still sitting in
<ev>   the nearly-done state, waiting for me to find enough time to finish them off.
<ev> - Will likely defer the Hadoop-dependent "What's interesting about this
<ev>   problem?" task, as IS refuses to touch my Hadoop deployment instructions
<ev>   until we get production on prodstack, thus fixing the retracer scaling
<ev>   problem.
<ev> - Will work on the automatic error reporting mechanism soon, as it's required
<ev>   for a number of work items (juju, landscape, etc).
<ev> - I'll be completing all the nagios tasks as I implement that piece of the
<ev>   prodstack deployment.
<ev> https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/foundations-r-updates-from-crash-reports
<ev> - Will hold off on this until the tail-end of the cycle, time permitting.
<ev> https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/foundations-r-fix-ddebs
<ev> - Blocked on infinity (?) teaching the librarian to publish ddebs.
<ev> https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/foundations-r-metrics
<ev> - Deferred.
<ev> https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/foundations-r-bucketing-improvements
<ev> - Plan in place. I need to run this by the security team as there are
<ev>   outstanding questions as to how we retain enough privileges to drop to the
<ev>   user experiencing the error to run the additional hooks.
<ev> https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/foundations-r-phased-updates
<ev> - Brian is mostly handling this.
<ev> (done)
<cjwatson> Feature progress this week:
<cjwatson>  foundations-r-finish-archive-reorg: debmirror patch accepted upstream.  Launchpad patch to add Package-Set fields in progress.  Discussed detailed requirements with security team (earlier this year).  Next step: discuss detailed requirements for Supported field with PES/GSS/etc.
<cjwatson>  foundations-r-grub-integration-testing: Got hold of upstream's megatest scripts, which may come in handy here.
<cjwatson>  foundations-r-phased-updates: Launchpad database patch deployed.  Launchpad code patch pushed and awaiting review.
<cjwatson>  foundations-r-secure-boot: Sufficiently done for 12.04.2.  Next step: look into using -signed preferentially, for 13.04 and 12.04.3.
<cjwatson>  foundations-r-upload-intermediary: Still figuring out how to hook in autopkgtest.  This didn't quite make it to the top of my list this week, but I live in hope.
<cjwatson> 12.04.2:
<cjwatson>  Significant progress on oversizedness.  Should be fine as soon as I figure out why my attempt at language pack removal apparently didn't stick (just asked webops to tweak apt preferences).
<cjwatson>  Almost everything else looks good; just sorting out the last few necessary bug-fixes.
<cjwatson> Installer:
<cjwatson>  Figured out bug 1065281 (I think).  Awaiting confirmation before I finish the backports for 12.04.2.
<ubottu> bug 1065281 in partman-efi (Ubuntu Quantal) "Installer crashed when trying to partition 4k/4k sector hard disks" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1065281
<cjwatson>  Refactored automatic mode a bit.
<cjwatson>  Committed fix for bug 1057485 for 12.04.2.
<ubottu> bug 1057485 in ubiquity (Ubuntu Precise) "ubiquity-kde codepage problem in Timezone map (Timezone.py)" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1057485
<cjwatson> GRUB:
<cjwatson>  Reduced delta against Debian a bit.
<cjwatson>  Continued back-burner work on nested function removal.
<cjwatson>  Sorted out problems with containers a bit more comprehensively (bug 1060404).
<ubottu> bug 1060404 in lxc (Ubuntu Precise) "update-grub runs and fails in containers" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1060404
<cjwatson> Archive admin / Launchpad:
<cjwatson>  Got fed up with developers having to use debuild -v when stacking multiple SRUs; fixed sru-report to handle this, and filed bug 1102870 for the remaining Launchpad work.  I hope to get the latter fixed next week.
<ubottu> bug 1102870 in Launchpad itself "Copies use naÃ¯ve ancestry check to calculate previous version for notifications and bug closures" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1102870
<cjwatson>  Trying to narrow down https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel/2013-January/036374.html.
<cjwatson> On holiday tomorrow morning and all of Friday.
<cjwatson> ..
<slangasek> any more questions over the above?
<slangasek> [TOPIC] Bugs
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Bugs
<slangasek> bdmurray: anything new popping up?
<bdmurray> slangasek: bug 1102499 but I see it was assigned already
<ubottu> bug 1102499 in mdadm (Ubuntu) "Cannot see 'bootdegraded' question" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1102499
<bdmurray> bug 1101326 is that for us or the desktop team?
<ubottu> bug 1101326 in consolekit (Ubuntu) "console-kit-daemon appears to consume 2GB of memory" [High,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1101326
<slangasek> bdmurray: we can ask seb128 if he has someone who can look at consolekit; otherwise ours
<bdmurray> slangasek: is that we as in me?
<bdmurray> I've been reviewing some of our past bugs and bug 1013681 could still use fixing.
<ubottu> bug 1013681 in apt (Ubuntu Quantal) "make apt-key net-update secure" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1013681
<slangasek> bdmurray: we as in you> yes please :)
<bdmurray> cjwatson: you'd mentioned a server side change...
<doko> I really hope that the eglibc update still will get into 12.04.2 (can't see infinity online here)
<cjwatson> Oh, err, I'd sort of lost track of that one
<cjwatson> IIRC it's a static file to be put somewhere?  If somebody provides the file and tells me where to install it ...
<cjwatson> Oh, you can't, it's a signed file.  Instructions for doing so, then
<cjwatson> Happy to be a substitute webop for this purpose ;)
<bdmurray> slangasek: and regarding bug 1094218 did we want to get it assigned?  It is still the #1 error on errors.ubuntu.com. (Oh, the vast majority of the reports are from 12.04)
<ubottu> bug 1094218 in lsb (Ubuntu) "lsb_release crashed with IOError in getstatusoutput(): [Errno 10] No child processes" [Medium,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1094218
<slangasek> bdmurray: well, I haven't been able to reproduce it, and it appears to be caused by a third-party deb even if we can't figure out how
<slangasek> bdmurray: so it's not at the top of the priority list IMHO
<ev> nonsense, all problems should be prioritised based on their rank on errors.ubuntu.com! ;)
<slangasek> heh
<xnox> despite being caused by a third-party deb, I don't expect lsb_release to ever crash like that.
<slangasek> I don't either, and I also can't /get/ it to crash like that
<xnox> it should return an error exit code and possibly some output.
<slangasek> as cjwatson noted last week, it looks like something has reaped our child for us, which doesn't make sense
<stgraber> I've actually introduced a bug like that in python3-lxc once as I had a generic child reaper in the python module, so anything import python3-lxc was getting their child reaped for them and trickering similar errors
<slangasek> stgraber: well, teamviewer doesn't install any python code at all so shouldn't be the cause of generic child reapers... if you want to take a look, though, feel free
<slangasek> bdmurray: anything else?
<bdmurray> bug 869825
<ubottu> bug 869825 in ubiquity (Ubuntu) "French (Switzerland) is no longer a layout choice in the installer" [Medium,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/869825
<slangasek> wontfix> stgraber lives in Canada now
<ev> hahaha
<stgraber> that's actually wrong, fr_CH is in there, just not where you'd think it'd be, it's under German (Switzerland) IIRC
 * slangasek blinks
<bdmurray> right it says that in the description
<bdmurray> ' Swiss-french people now have to go to "German (Switzerland)" and then choose Switzerland French layout in the right pane.'
<xnox> well, we took keyboard layouts from debian.... sure we can have an ubuntu patch for this.
<slangasek> is this straightforward to fix?
<stgraber> it's probably straightforward to fix once we find where the bug is and console-setup usually gives me headaches :)
 * ogra_ joins the console-setup whining 
<xnox> reading wikipedia the only difference between switzerland german/french/italian/romanish/liechtenstein/luxembourg keyboard layout is which accented characters get the preferencial access without dead keys.
<ogra_> *whine*
<xnox> so i'm pretty sure that any swiss computer user can use any swiss keyboard ;-)
<xnox> layout.
<stgraber> xnox: yep, the physical layout is identical between fr_CH and de_CH, it's just that you get direct Ã© and Ã  with the french layout and Ã¶ and Ã¼ with the german layout
 * xnox ponders if we can display same layout in multiple categories....
<stgraber> xnox: well, they'll be a bit annoyed having to press shift a lot more often than usual, but yeah, it won't prevent them from installing and changing the layout later
<cjwatson> I question whether that's in console-setup
<slangasek> so does anyone want to take this bug?
<cjwatson> Because most of the keyboard layout/variant categorisation stuff comes more directly from xkb-data
<cjwatson> (well, possibly it might involve a console-setup rebuild)
<cjwatson> slangasek: I'll take it and hate myself
<slangasek> done ;)
<slangasek> [TOPIC] AOB
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: AOB
<slangasek> anything else?
<bdmurray> who is the right person to review a software-center merge proposal?
<xnox> mterry?!
<xnox> or mvo....
<xnox> depends which bits of software center.
<stgraber> bdmurray: I'd have said mvo but that's probably not true anymore, hold on a sec, I'll find a good fallback :)
<barry> probably not mvo ;)
<barry> alsina
<ogra_> and depends if you can catch mvo online
<barry> (i think)
<xnox> bdmurray: which merge proposal?
<bdmurray> https://code.launchpad.net/~brian-murray/software-center/bug-1095823/+merge/143971
<xnox> (e.g. if it's not the black magic core it may be easier )
<bdmurray> nope its kind of silly
<stgraber> bdmurray: bah, my usual fallback apparently no longer works for Canonical either ;)
<ogra_> well, but that change looks rather easy :)
<xnox> bdmurray: infinity is in the correct team membership, he  can +1 it, and then tarmac should auto land the patch =)
<doko> barry, looks like there some extra changes, but I can't see these being committed to debian
<xnox> barry: and you can as well =)))
<ogra_> after all you can just trust smagoun and blame him afterwards if it failed
 * xnox thinks he got lp permissions wrong.
<barry> xnox: true.  i can review it but i don't feel comfortable committing it.  roberto alsina is leading the project now i think
<xnox> barry: it's a one line typo fix.
<barry> xnox: oh
<bdmurray> 2 characters even
<ogra_> -OEM_CHANNEL_DESCRIPTOR = "/var/lib/ubuntu-dist-channel"
<ogra_> 	+OEM_CHANNEL_DESCRIPTOR = "/var/lib/ubuntu_dist_channel"
<xnox> barry: it's OEM priority. we should be landing it and sru'ing it.
 * xnox likes the humble "Ubuntu One Control Tower" team name.
<barry> xnox, bdmurray approved.  i have to skip out for an errand at lunch (soon as this meeting's over), but ping me and i'll land it when i get back if no one else does
<slangasek> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Wed Jan 23 17:05:21 2013 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes (wiki):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2013/ubuntu-meeting.2013-01-23-16.01.moin.txt
<meetingology> Minutes (html):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2013/ubuntu-meeting.2013-01-23-16.01.html
<slangasek> sold
<barry> thanks!
<ogra_> thanks !
<slangasek> thanks, everyone
<stgraber> thanks!
<jodh> thanks
<bdmurray> barry: thanks
<xnox> cheers
<ev> thanks!
#ubuntu-meeting 2013-01-24
<notgary> Yo! Is anyone in here for the paper cuts meeting that starts in 10 minutes?
<DiegoTc> me
<notgary> You're the person who emailed me earlier this week about getting involved, aren't you?
<notgary> Hmm, I was hoping to have two or three more people here. Looks like it might just be a meeting of two tonight :)
<notgary> So who are the paper cutters in here?
<DiegoTc> notgary: yeap it was me
<notgary> Good to see you here. Did you get my reply?
<DiegoTc> yeap
<JoseeAntonioR> looks like the legend of DiegoTc is around today
<DiegoTc> Planning to check compiz
<DiegoTc> JoseeAntonioR legend why?
<JoseeAntonioR> DiegoTc: see pm :)
* notgary changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: 2000 UTC to 2100 UTC - meeting of the One Hundred Paper Cuts team. Agenda for todays meeting can be found here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/OneHundredPaperCuts/Meetings/24Jan2013
<JoseeAntonioR> notgary: wait
* JoseeAntonioR changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<JoseeAntonioR> #startmeeting Meeting of the One Hundred Paper Cuts team for 13-01-24
<meetingology> Meeting started Thu Jan 24 20:07:25 2013 UTC.  The chair is JoseeAntonioR. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Meeting of the One Hundred Paper Cuts team for 13-01-24 Meeting | Current topic:
<JoseeAntonioR> #chair notgary
<meetingology> Current chairs: JoseeAntonioR notgary
<notgary> Ah
<notgary> JoseeAntonioR: now that's quite neat :0
<notgary> :)
<notgary> JoseeAntonioR: thanks for sorting that out for me :)
<JoseeAntonioR> Agenda for today is at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/OneHundredPaperCuts/Meetings/24Jan2013
<JoseeAntonioR> no probs
<notgary> If anyone hasn't yet read the agenda, can you please take a couple of minute now to do so
<notgary> first item
<notgary> #topic Review of previous meeting minutes
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Meeting of the One Hundred Paper Cuts team for 13-01-24 Meeting | Current topic:  Review of previous meeting minutes
<notgary> Last time we decided to focus the project on the foundation UI technologies in Ubuntu
<notgary> So GTK+ and Compiz will be our primary targets
<notgary> the idea being to work on the apps that use them, and try and fix the bugs in the foundation so other apps can benefit
<notgary> William Hua (attenuate) from the desktop team kindly volunteered to help us work on GTK issues
<notgary> We also decided to create and maintain our own PPA
<notgary> where we would keep scripts and tools that will helps us get our job done a lot easier
<notgary> We decided that, in order to get design input on paper cuts, we should assign them to jnick_tait, a project manager on the design team, who would delegate them to another designer
<notgary> and last of all
<notgary> we decided that it would be better to use #ubuntu-desktop as out main irc channel
<notgary> instead of our own
<notgary> so we were not isolated from the rest of the community in our own little corner
<notgary> that's the minutes from the previous meeting
<notgary> Is everyone happy that that's how things went down last time?
<notgary> Heh
<notgary> Guess no-ones here from last time :)
<notgary> #accepted Review of previous meeting minutes
<DiegoTc> +1
<notgary> Oh yeah, voting would probably be better for these :P
<notgary> Lets try that
<notgary> #vote Acceptance of the minutes of the last meeting
<meetingology> Please vote on: Acceptance of the minutes of the last meeting
<meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (private votes don't work yet, but when they do it will be by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0 to me)
<notgary> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from notgary
<notgary> DiegoTc: Now's your chance to +1 :)
<DiegoTc> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from DiegoTc
<notgary> Anyone else here for the paper cuts meeting wanting to vote?
<notgary> guess not :P
<notgary> #endvote
<meetingology> Voting ended on: Acceptance of the minutes of the last meeting
<meetingology> Votes for:2 Votes against:0 Abstentions:0
<meetingology> Motion carried
<notgary> Item 2 was added by a person who's not here yet, so we'll move onto item three
<notgary> #topic Developer week
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Meeting of the One Hundred Paper Cuts team for 13-01-24 Meeting | Current topic:  Developer week
<notgary> This coming tuesday
<notgary> I'll be giving a developer week session on the paper cuts project on Ubuntu on air
<notgary> I'll be doing the speaking on the stream and questions will be taken in #ubuntu-classroom-chat
<notgary> I've got a list of talking points here https://wiki.ubuntu.com/OneHundredPaperCuts/Events/DeveloperWeek2013
<notgary> And my plan was to talk around them
<notgary> The list is not complete, and will still be in flux probably right up until the last minute
<notgary> But does anyone have anything they think should be covered that isn't there?
<DiegoTc> Give me some minutes to check it out
<notgary> Cool
<DiegoTc> I suppose this Fixing paper cuts
<notgary> What about it?
<notgary> DiegoTc: What about fixing paper cuts?
<notgary> Is guess DiegoTc 's AFK just now. Anyone else got a thought about the current plans for developer week?
<DiegoTC> Hi
<notgary> Hey :)
<DiegoTC> sorry laptop when of
<notgary> No worries
<notgary> What are your thoughts on the current developer week plans?
<DiegoTC> So I suppose that in this part Fixing paper cuts
<DiegoTC> you wil talk about how to fix bugs?
<DiegoTC> that have been assign or no?
<notgary> The process you need to go through to get a bug fixed in Ubuntu, including getting patches merged upstream. the process of fixing a paper cut is very similar to the process of fixing a normal bug in Ubuntu, so most it will be covering those processes again
<notgary> I won't go into the details of specific apps
<notgary> Or of specific bugs
<notgary> That's all
<DiegoTC> well long time ago i haven't read the documentation of fixing bugs
<notgary> It's changed quite a bit over the past few years
<DiegoTC> But last time I sow there is missing something important
<DiegoTC> How to configure your working enviroment
<notgary> Hmm
<DiegoTC> you know the code is in launchpad
<DiegoTC> but okay whats next
<notgary> That is a good point
<DiegoTC> documentation wasn't clear for that
<DiegoTC> so lets say
<DiegoTC> I want to fix the title of compiz
<DiegoTC> okay, but what I need to work on compiz code?
<DiegoTC> I have the code
<DiegoTC> how do i configure it
<DiegoTC> is something special
<DiegoTC> is there any specific IDE
<DiegoTC> or gedit is good for that
<DiegoTC> that's my opinion
<notgary> It's a pretty good one though
<notgary> Over the past couple of months we've been setting up an area on the wiki that we call our Dojo - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/OneHundredPaperCuts/PaperCutsNinja/Dojo/GTK3
<notgary> It's going to cover tips and ticks to working with the different apps and packages that we're going to be working on
<notgary> In the run up to the session, we could make sure there's a bit there for configuring your development environment
<notgary> Since most of the apps we'll touch will be based on GTK, there should be a lot of steps in common between each one
<notgary> Perhaps a weekend project :P
<notgary> What do you think?
<DiegoTC> yeap
<DiegoTC> that sounds a good idea
<notgary> #vote Write a guide to configuring a development environment for working with paper cuts
<meetingology> Please vote on: Write a guide to configuring a development environment for working with paper cuts
<meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (private votes don't work yet, but when they do it will be by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0 to me)
<notgary> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from notgary
<DiegoTC> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from DiegoTC
<notgary> Anyone else think that's a good idea?
<notgary> The rest of them all think it's rubbish :)
<notgary> #endvote
<meetingology> Voting ended on: Write a guide to configuring a development environment for working with paper cuts
<meetingology> Votes for:2 Votes against:0 Abstentions:0
<meetingology> Motion carried
<notgary> Item 4
<notgary> #topic Getting more people involved
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Meeting of the One Hundred Paper Cuts team for 13-01-24 Meeting | Current topic:  Getting more people involved
<notgary> Getting more people involved in the project is critical to it's long term survival
<notgary> DiegoTc: As a new contributor, how did you end up getting involved?
<DiegoTC> notgary: you mean how did I discover papercut
<DiegoTC> or how I plan to get involved?
<notgary> How did you discover it and what was it that made you want to get involved. If we can identify the things that are attracting people right now then we can do more of that in the future.
<DiegoTC> Ahh
<DiegoTC> I read your article
<DiegoTC> in planet.ubuntu
<notgary> Which one? I've been shamelessly spamming Planet with paper cut article :)
<DiegoTC> the first one
<DiegoTC> helping in ubuntu and no one notice it
<DiegoTC> that all cool people are in unity
<notgary> This one? http://www.notgary.com/2013/01/want-to-get-involved-with-ubuntu-get.html
<DiegoTC> yes
<notgary> That one seems to be the most popular, and I did write it differently to the rest
<DiegoTC> Actually I have always want to start helping fixing bugs, but lets said time, work, college, and each time I download the code and didn't find no place to go to configure I just left it that way
<notgary> You're just the person I've been aiming these at
<notgary> People who want to help out
<notgary> But don't get round to it
<notgary> I figure that if I keep reminding people that we're here
<notgary> They'll eventually come and check us out.
<notgary> I think we need to set up our own little internal project for getting more people involved
<notgary> It's a pretty big task (persuading people to come along0
<notgary> and it'll involved more time and effort than we can put in with the 15 minutes we have left in this meeting
<notgary> So what don't we decide here that we need a real plan for attracting new contributors
<notgary> and discuss it outside of the meeting, on the mailing list and in #ubuntu-desktop
<notgary> How does that sound?
<DiegoTC> that sounds great
<notgary> #vote Devise and implement a strategy for getting more people involved in the project
<meetingology> Please vote on: Devise and implement a strategy for getting more people involved in the project
<meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (private votes don't work yet, but when they do it will be by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0 to me)
<notgary> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from notgary
<DiegoTC> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from DiegoTC
<notgary> Anyone else wanna chip in their vote?
<notgary> Nope? Your loss.
<notgary> #endvote
<meetingology> Voting ended on: Devise and implement a strategy for getting more people involved in the project
<meetingology> Votes for:2 Votes against:0 Abstentions:0
<meetingology> Motion carried
<notgary> Next one should be a short one
<notgary> #topic Meetings
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Meeting of the One Hundred Paper Cuts team for 13-01-24 Meeting | Current topic:  Meetings
<notgary> After this meeeting
<notgary> I think we should start having regular meetings once a week
<notgary> I think there's been such a low turnout this time because we're not having regular meetings
<notgary> so they're not fresh in people's minds
<DiegoTC> well I am not friend or regular meeting
<notgary> and they haven't gotten into a routine of attending them
<DiegoTC> its 14:53 right now
<notgary> Why not?
<DiegoTC> I am on work :p shouldn't be here
<notgary> Ah
<notgary> We also have a regular contributor who fixes a lot of bugs in GTK apps who live in Australia
<notgary> and so cannot attend any meeting
<DiegoTC> Meeting probably on Saturday?
<notgary> They would be held at 1900 UTC (an hour before this one started tonight)
<notgary> If people are up for a weekend meeting, then that would be fine
<notgary> I figured that contributors will be scattered around the world in many different timezones, so no matter what time we chose, someone would be unhappy
<notgary> What we can vote on then (since we're running out of time and you have to get back to work)
<notgary> is to speak with the rest of the contributors and find out what sort of time they would like
<notgary> #vote Decide on a regular meeting time
<meetingology> Please vote on: Decide on a regular meeting time
<meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (private votes don't work yet, but when they do it will be by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0 to me)
<notgary> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from notgary
<DiegoTC> +0
<meetingology> +0 received from DiegoTC
<notgary> #endvote
<meetingology> Voting ended on: Decide on a regular meeting time
<meetingology> Votes for:1 Votes against:0 Abstentions:1
<meetingology> Motion carried
<notgary> So there are two items left on the agenda that we won't cover tonight
<notgary> The first, item 2, was added by someone who isn't here to discuss it, so I'll move it to the next meeting's agenda for him
<notgary> and the second is more of me just pontificating about what sort of future I see for the project
<notgary> which I can do in a blog post
<notgary> :)
<notgary> So unless you have anything else to add
<notgary> I think we can conclude this meeting
<DiegoTC> yeap
<notgary> Cool
<DiegoTC> thats fine for me
<notgary> #endmeeeting
<notgary> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Thu Jan 24 20:58:56 2013 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes (wiki):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2013/ubuntu-meeting.2013-01-24-20.07.moin.txt
<meetingology> Minutes (html):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2013/ubuntu-meeting.2013-01-24-20.07.html
<notgary> Thanks a lot for attending today
<notgary> It was great to meet and and I look forward to working with you in the future
<DiegoTC> thanks
<DiegoTC> Pleasure for me
<notgary> I'm gonna get to work on some of these items. You should get back to work :P
<notgary> See you about o/
#ubuntu-meeting 2013-01-25
<Aeefire> hey guys.
 * ogra_ waves
<seb128> ogra_, dholbach: is there a meeting today?
<seb128> hey
<dholbach> I'm in a separate meeting right now
<dholbach> ogra_ announced it before, so I'd assume that yes
<ogra_> seb128, well, at least for a quick status run-down, yes
<seb128> who is leading?
<janimo> hi
<seb128> is there an agenda?
<ogra_> nope
<ogra_> we could make one up for next week though
<ogra_> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Fri Jan 25 16:02:49 2013 UTC.  The chair is ogra_. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
<ogra_> hey everyonw, this is the nexus7 status meeting
<kyleN> hi
<ogra_> i'll give a quick summary of what happened this week ...
<ogra_> so thanks to jani who wrote a prototype in GO, we now have auto-rotation working !
<ogra_> as well as the ambient light sensor
<ogra_> (i took the prototype and implemented it in shell, as an interim solution)
<ogra_> togather with the autorotation, an xorg fix landed that makes touch input in portrait mode work
<janimo> if we are to integrate with gnome-system-daemon we need changes to the kernel so we expose an input interface as that daemon expects
<janimo> we may get it this cycle or we may just stick with the shell daemon, not sure yet
<ogra_> right, the question is if we will keep g-s-d in this form on the later tablet setup
<janimo> I have been looking into it the past few days though and I'd like to get it done properly
<ogra_> right, the shell daemons are really just interim solutions
<janimo> no idea. What is the later tablet setup - related to ubuntu phone?
<seb128> g-s-d is being discussed
<ogra_> i found it important for testing the features to have it in asap
<seb128> we want to reduce its scope for sure
<ogra_> so we can see how the UI reacts to rotation etc
<seb128> so if it's as easy to implement those feature in other places feel free
<janimo> seb128, well it is certainly easier but at the cost of extra footprint that a separate daemon brings
<janimo> something we keep ignoring and that got us into this bloated mess in the first place :)
<seb128> right
<seb128> well, we should perhaps implement those feature in unity itself for example
<ogra_> well, i wouldnt mind a small daemon in C
<janimo> we were supposed to have a push for reducing memory footprint this cycle, at leats not add extra stuff if we can't make it lower :)
<ogra_> depending on the feature though
<seb128> the issue is that the higher number of process, the higher cost in context switches, wakeups, memory usage, etc
<ogra_> janimo, as long as the new extra stuff is smaller i dont care :)
<ogra_> janimo, btw, did tvoss talk to you ?
<janimo> this daemon is by far not among the high footprint daemons but everything adds up
<janimo> nope
<ogra_> he seems to work on an API for sensor stuff
<janimo> nice, I'll follow up after the meeting
<ogra_> so if there is something in the works we could use, that might help
<ogra_> i pointed him to you ... hm
<ogra_> (days ago)
<janimo> well I discovered g-s-d covers accel and screen rotation, but only with a paritcular type of accelerometer in the kernel
<janimo> there's no unifying interface
<ogra_> right
<seb128> seems better to build on that codebase
<ogra_> though the question is, will we stay with g-s-d at all for sensors
<seb128> rather than to write a new one
<janimo> also discovered by accident while poking in sysfs that my x86 laptop has an accelrometer
<janimo> which also does not work with g-s-d
<seb128> ogra_, no immediate plan to replace g-s-d, and we can easily move bits of code out of gsd to some other source later if needed
<ogra_> ok
<seb128> ogra_, it's not like the work would be wasted
<seb128> I would improve g-s-d as a start
<seb128> seems the less work path
<janimo> well sensors are not that separate from settings, it makes sense imo to have light sensor integrated in backlight settings and other screen related stuff
<ogra_> right, making g-s-d actually generic deinitely helps
<ogra_> definitely
<janimo> so from what limited knowledge I have g-s-d seems the place for it - if we plan on keeping g-s-d that is
<ogra_> right
<seb128> we do plan to keep it in the near futur
<ogra_> i'm just careful because i heard we might not ... but what seb128 said, it helps in general
<seb128> we might move some bits out to small "on-demand" services
<ogra_> ++
<ogra_> once upstart can handle it :)
<janimo> I hope those are not written in python though
<seb128> like if "rotation" can be an upstart daemon we could span the helper from an upstart script
<seb128> and take it down again
<ogra_> yeah
<ogra_> thats what i do atm
<seb128> upstart daemon->signal
<ogra_> but for the session side it uses Xsession.d
<janimo> rotation does not seem like an on-deman thing though, I expect people want it on all the time with a tablet
<ogra_> instead of upstart ...
<seb128> well, if the rotation triggers an upstart signal we can bind a script to it
<ogra_> janimo, in android i dont :)
<seb128> that would avoid having the code running all the time to poll for the rotation event
<ogra_> if i read a book and lie on the side in bed i dont want it rotating all the time
 * seb128 always turn off autorotate
<seb128> it's more annoying than useful
<ogra_> seb128, well, the polling is the biggest issue atm, yeah
<ogra_> the daemon is like 20 lines of shell :)
<ogra_> wouldnt eat much if it wouldnt have to poll every second
<ogra_> in the current state its one of the biggest CPU consumers though
<janimo> we could fix that by doing the poll in the kernel and firing off uevents when things change
<seb128> can we make xorg/the kernel to send a signal?
<ogra_> yeah
<janimo> needs some coding but can be done - not sure if it's the right place though
<ogra_> kernel
<seb128> it might be worth dropping an email on ubuntu-devel list?
<lool> Apparently gsd reads an ID_INPUT_ACCELEROMETER_ORIENTATION property via gudev
<seb128> to get input from kernel people?
<janimo> seb128, but we also need to add code to interpret the raw data and keep track of orientation in the kernel then - moving the shell code to kernel C code
<ogra_> lool, rhight, which only very few accelerometers seem to trigger
<lool> If I understand what you folks are saying: 1) this doesn't work on N7 2) we would like to change this from poll to event-based
<janimo> seems a bit crazy - but this sensor does not have an orientation even itself unless loaded with proprietary firmware which we do not have
<lool> so on 1), do we know what to do to set this property right?
<ogra_> lool, right, but 0.5) we only have the free part of the driver
<janimo> lool, I am looking into this now. The nexus7 sensor is dumb
<lool> and 2), do we have a way to trigger something in the active session based on udev events?
<janimo> and only provides raw accel data
<ogra_> lool, which doesnt give us 100% of the features
<lool> I think there's an udev bridge for upstart, can we use it?
<janimo> lool, g-s-d listens to udev events from accel devices
<ogra_> right, we just need the events
<janimo> so that part is covered if we make our kernel side similar to what is already handled
<ogra_> yeah
<lool> janimo: ah so it's not poll, it's already uevent based
<janimo> so an input device with uevents, polling
<janimo> lool, right.
<ogra_> our current driver doesnt even provide a device
<lool> so we only miss a correct kernel path for this
<janimo> when the currenlty handled (asus-laptop pega I think) accel fires off an ACPI even saying rotation changed
<ogra_> so these bits need adding
<janimo> the driver emits an uevent
<janimo> a udev helper is called that reads the raw data and calculated orientation - again, as uevents cannot carry metadata
<janimo> and exports that as env -var
<janimo> udev property I mean
<janimo> and g-s-d reads it
<ogra_> that sounds like a really slow process
<ogra_> compared to what we do atm
<janimo> lool, the rewason I am not sure about the kernel part is that there is no standard kernel way of exposing accels, g-s-d uses one of the existing approaches
<ogra_> i wonbder if we couldnt have that with less players involved
<janimo> but for instance it does not work with my acer accelerometer either, that too does things a bit differently
 * xnox realises it's meeting time.
<janimo> ogra_, well g-s-d as our shell script could just read raw data and handle everything, but would need to have a lot of sensor specific code
<janimo> and would need to do detection
<janimo> udev handles detection of device at least
<ogra_> and would need to poll
<ogra_> right, i just wonder if that cant be done more direct ... udev->xorg
<janimo> so the g-s-d stuff seems ok to me, just that restrict all sensor to the input subsystem (nexus is on IIO does not even provide an input device)
<ogra_> and have g-s-d only intercept if the user actually switches it off
<janimo> and a specific devnode with input_struct layout as a joystick (X, Y, X values)
<ogra_> yeah
<janimo> it is doable, I'll keep at it for a few more days
<ogra_> well, lets not go to much into detail
<ogra_> we'll see what you come up with ;)
<ogra_> xnox, want to give an update ?
 * xnox also thought that udev is ought to be generating the events from accelorometer and then g-s-d or whatever can piggy back on top. Gives us the most flexibility to consume those events.
<janimo> and take into account the galaxy nexus too which has a sensor from the same family but different
<ogra_> same but different ... yay
<janimo> I'd rather we not have to add code to every sensor if upstream decides they are all going to be IIO and not input devices
<xnox> I finished usb-creator support for flashing nexus7 tablets using .img + .bootimg files.
<ogra_> wohooo
<janimo> so maybe changing g-s-d is better long term
<ogra_> janimo, yeah
<xnox> Currently it only "recognises" nexus7 ID_VENDOR_ID and ID_MODEL_ID
<ogra_> thats enough for a start
<ogra_> we can add a big database over time :)
<xnox> so if there are other devices please send me their VENDOR_IDs / MODEL_IDs
<seb128> janimo, maybe drop a summary email to ubuntu-devel@ about the rotation/g-s-d/kernel topic? might be better for discussion
<janimo> xnox, nexus devices you mean?
<ogra_> once we switch to nexus4 and nexus10 :)
<ogra_> seb128, ++
<janimo> seb128, I will follow up to the original thread once I have a bit more info
<xnox> janimo: yeah, i do want ids of the nexus range to be in the usb-creator.
<xnox> janimo: but I don't have them.
<seb128> janimo, thanks
<janimo> xnox, so galaxy nexus phone too?
<ogra_> [action] jani to mail ubuntu-devel about accelerometer plans
<meetingology> ACTION: jani to mail ubuntu-devel about accelerometer plans
<xnox> janimo: yes please.
<xnox> janimo: we don't have images for those devices yet, but I'd like usb-creator to know about them already.
<xnox> (.img + .bootimg style images that is)
<janimo> xnox, one thing I remember is that both nexus 7 and galaxy report different USB IDs depending on whether they booted in recovery mode or regular android
<ogra_> note though that the phone installation functions differently from our installation procedure
<xnox> janimo: currently I trigger on two ID_MODEL_IDs
<kyleN> ogra, when appropriate, I have a short topic.
<ogra_> (i assume we can adjust that though)
<ogra_> kyleN, well, we dont have an agenda atm. feel free to just start when its quiet
<ogra_> i.e. now :)
<xnox> ogra_: yeah. =/ given enough demand we can add additional types of flashing. the *.bootimg and *.img backend took only have a day to code in the end.
<kyleN> Before the holidays there was some discussion of using valgrind to find memory leaks and thereby improve Ubuntu for resource constained devices.
<kyleN> I worked on apport-valgrind, which was released into raring as part of apport.
<ogra_> nice !
<kyleN> This allows you to run valgrind for an executable (to find memory leaks) while first populating a temporary directory with available debug symbols for the executable, which makes the resulting valgrind log file more complete and useful (because more symbols names are filled in, making the stack traces clearer)
<kyleN> Alex Chiang submitted a needed patch for this that landed in valgrind.
<kyleN> and in Ubuntu/R
<kyleN> This is a first step. There are many aspects to this. I started a blog to cover some of this: http://kylenubuntu.blogspot.com/
<ogra_> you need to blog about that, that extends far beyond nexus7
<kyleN> I expect to add more blog posts soon on this topic.
<kyleN> DONE
<ogra_> and sounds helpful everywhere
<ogra_> time you get onto planet !
<seb128> I was going to say
<seb128> nobody is going to read those if they are not on planet
<kyleN> do I need a rocket ship to get there? ;)
<seb128> no offense to your blog popularity ;-)
<ogra_> just ubuntu membership
<janimo> BTW, nexus 7 testers please http://people.canonical.com/~jani/linux-image-3.1.10-8-nexus7_3.1.10-8.21_armhf.deb
<kyleN> ack
<ogra_> note that this will break your touchscreen :P
<janimo> for me this deb fixes sound on boot without having to do a suspend. I'd like other opinions too
<janimo> well log in via ssh and install http://paste.ubuntu.com/1570120/ over /usr/bin/acceld :)
<ogra_> janimo, is that need ? i would just drop the "Rotatet "right"" from xorg.conf
<ogra_> *Rotate
<ogra_> anyway, the current nx7 looks pretty good already ... we have one big showstopper bug left though
<ogra_> bug 1068994
<ubottu> bug 1068994 in ubuntu-nexus7 "button1 gets stuck after a while" [Critical,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1068994
 * ogra_ pokes the bot
<janimo> ogra_, it needs to correlate xrandr names to xinput rotation matrix. The latter get shifted with the kernel 90 degree rotation
<janimo> so it is needed
<ogra_> and after the fix for portrait mode i must say that i clearly suspect compiz to be at fault, not xorg
<ogra_> if the bug occurs to me, i can still hit the ubuntu key on onboard to switch apps, and i can interact withj the app content
<ogra_> what doesnt take any input are window frames, panel and launcher
<ogra_> all therr are compiz
<ogra_> *three
<ogra_> so i start to suspect compiz itself has an issue here
<ogra_> what we are also still missing is bluetooth
<ogra_> is cyphermox around ?
<ogra_> the quantal image has some hacks to push the binary firmware into the driver when BT starts ... we dont have that in raring atm (and i'm not sure we want it)
<ogra_> so it would be good to know the plans here, can we get it to work without the binary bits, if not, ho do we integrate them properly
<ogra_> *how
<ogra_> seb128, could you forward that question ?
<seb128> ogra_, sure
<ogra_> (probably also better discussed by mail=
<seb128> yeah, sounds like something for ubuntu-devel@ as well
<ogra_> what else did i miss ?
<seb128> is anyone working on collecting the valgrind datas from the community?
<ogra_> do we have anyone from QA  around ?
<ogra_> plars, ?
<seb128> what about optimizing processes running?
<ogra_> oh, definitely
<seb128> who?
<seb128> I want to start organizing those better
<seb128> so I want to get everybody in touch
<ogra_> how about we make a task table and people can pick from it ...
<lool> Gema and Paul Larson both mentioned activities related to collecting smem output in QA labs
<seb128> we have started doing a table with lool
<ogra_> unclaimed tasks will then be forcefully assigned
<seb128> we need to publish it
<ogra_> great
<seb128> we have also some blueprints
<ogra_> lool, yeah, i know plars wroks on nexus stuff
<ogra_> (thus the ping)
<plars> ogasawara: hi, I'm here
<ogra_> i implemented preseeding support for him last week
<plars> grr
<ogra_> hehe
<plars> ogasawara: sorry
<plars> ogra_: yes, I'm here, but in about 30 different irc windows at the moment :)
<ogra_> plars, so anything you want to tell us about nx7 work ?
<ogra_> seb128, for collecting stuff from the community it sounds like balloons might be the right guy
<plars> ogra_: just that I got your email about preseeding and I am anxious to try it, but I was off yesterday and haven't gotten to it yet today
<plars> ogra_: assuming that works, we should be able to automate installs on the nexus in the lab and have automated tests running pretty soon
<ogra_> ok, i'm not sure it works 100% yet, please bug me if there are issues
<seb128> ogra_, ok, I think I will try to draft a "status update/summary/how we organize a bit better going forward" email early next week
<seb128> ogra_, I will run the draft through you, lool and some others before sending
<plars> ogra_: if you have an example preseed or script for munging it into the image already, that would streamline things considerably
<ogra_> seb128, great, lets turn that (or parts of it) into our meeting agenda
<ogra_> plars, heh, no, i dont, i used to abuse tobin as a preseed stoirage in the past :)
<ogra_> oh, btw, do we have anyone from the kernel team here ?
<ogra_> cking used to work on power management on the nx7
<ogra_> and it got really really bad since we switched to raring
<janimo> ogra_, it's the same kernel though right?
<ogra_> from battery values <50% on i get a battery popup every second until the device shuts down (3-4h long)+
<ogra_> janimo, nope, it was re-based on the later android release
<janimo> ah right
<ogra_> i got these issues since the first raring kernel landed
<janimo> so a quantal kernel has no such issues ?
<Aeefire> hey guys.
<janimo> could be a raring userland policy bug as well
<cking> ogra_, has a bug been filed so we can track that?
<ogra_> percentage and time are totally off all the time and i get weird power messages on charging or after a few hours of usage
<ogra_> cking, sure
<ogra_> janimo, yeah, could be, i also noticed that upower shows an additional usb charger
<ogra_> i dont think that was there in quantal
<ogra_> cking, bug 1093543
<ubottu> bug 1093543 in ubuntu-nexus7 "Battery status behaves erratically" [Medium,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1093543
<ogra_> (sorry, tootk a moment to find it)
<cking> ogra_, thanks, i'll look at that one
<ogra_> great
<ogra_> i think we talked about it before btw
<ogra_> but didnt find any cause
<ogra_> ok ...
<ogra_> anyone from the community around with questions etc ?
<ogra_> doesnt look like
<ogra_> doesn anyone want to bring something up before i close ?
<ogra_> going once
<seb128> ogra_, do we know if the pointer/grab lock issue is being worked or making any progress?
<seb128> it's pretty much a blocker if you want to use the nexus
<ogra_> seb128, tjaalton sent it upstream
<ogra_> seb128, its not as bad as you think
<seb128> is it just sitting there or did somebody pick itup?
<ogra_> i use the nx7 all day, if you use it carefully you can get through with only having the issue once a day
<seb128> lol
<ogra_> i think it rots upstream
<seb128> "if you use it carefully"
<tjaalton> seb128: upstream knows about it, pinged him earlier this week but no new patches to try
<janimo> ogasawara, are you using a mouse?
<seb128> like explain to users to not use the indicators? ;-)
<ogra_> there was quite some activity in the beginning
<ogra_> but that died
<ogra_> janimo, indeed not :)
<ogra_> tjaalton, did you try with the latest fixes, its really only compiz that freezes
<stgraber> "if you make sure not to use the touchscreen on your tablet, you're fine"
<tjaalton> ogra_: hm, no
<ogra_> tjaalton, i can interact with everything else on the desktop just fine
<tjaalton> oh
<tjaalton> sweet
<ogra_> just not panel, launcher and *window frames*
<seb128> lol, because who needs to use a panel or launcher? ;-)
<ogra_> but firefox content, terminal, onboard etc work fine
<ogra_> seb128, well, if i just read a long article in FF, all i need is the grab'n drag extension to work ;)
<ogra_> and switching apps works fine via onboard (_hit the ubuntu key, pick the number of your app)
<ogra_> tjaalton, so i think it would be worth taking a second look with focus on compiz
<ogra_> 3 min left ... anything else ?
<tjaalton> ogra_: update the lp bug and I'll ask peter again where the bug is. the previous logs we had did show that the grab state was fooked, but.. we'll see
<ogra_> tjaalton, well, there were a bunch of issues with input fixed in the last xorg upload
<ogra_> so i would suspect we might have cleared the xorg side now
<tjaalton> oh the patch bryce put back in? yeah sorry about that, it was a bad merge by me :)
<tjaalton> mistakenly dropped a patch that fixed the rotation
<ogra_> well, i think bryce and danien van vugt added patches
<tjaalton> when merging new bugfix release
<ogra_> *daniel
<tjaalton> xserver only got this one back
<tjaalton> also a point release before that
<ogra_> well, todays raring  works pretty well for me
<ogra_> apart from the compiz hang
<ogra_> no other input issues here
<ogra_> ok, time is up
<ogra_> going once
<ogra_> going twice
<ogra_> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Fri Jan 25 17:00:41 2013 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes (wiki):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2013/ubuntu-meeting.2013-01-25-16.02.moin.txt
<meetingology> Minutes (html):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2013/ubuntu-meeting.2013-01-25-16.02.html
<tjaalton> could be that the apps that are working are using XI1 and it's the multitouch-aware clients (XI2) that are busted
<ogra_> thanks everyone, see you next week :)
<kyleN> cheers
<seb128> thanks
<ogra_> tjaalton, yeah
<tjaalton> I'll verify that next week
<tjaalton> .au is well past beer-o-clock already
<tjaalton> :)
<ogra_> tjaalton, oh, are you at LCA ?
<tjaalton> ogra_: no, but upstream is from there
<ogra_> heh, ok
<Pajn> Just checking, the ubuntu-tv meeting will start soon, right?
<mhall119> Pajn: yes
<Pajn> thanks!
<mhall119> tgm4883: whenever you're ready
<tgm4883> I'm here
<tgm4883> bobweaver, are you here too?
<mhall119> he may not be here for this one
<tgm4883> #startmeeting Ubuntu-TV Community Meeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Fri Jan 25 18:05:06 2013 UTC.  The chair is tgm4883. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
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<tgm4883> #chair tgm4883 mhall119
<meetingology> Current chairs: mhall119 tgm4883
<tgm4883> So since this is our first community meeting, it's a bit unstructured
<tgm4883> #topic Community Questions
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Ubuntu-TV Community Meeting Meeting | Current topic:  Community Questions
<tgm4883> Are there any questions from anyone in the community?
<steve_fi> I have a few, can just fire them all out?
<tgm4883> fire away
<tgm4883> I'll make subtopics for them, so it's well organized
<steve_fi> according to the wiki, you still need unity 2d to get UbuntuTV to work, but it seems that Ubuntu is moving from that ... is there any plans to support it in unity3d any time soon?
<tgm4883> #subtopic according to the wiki, you still need unity 2d to get UbuntuTV to work, but it seems that Ubuntu is moving from that ... is there any plans to support it in unity3d any time soon?
<tgm4883> hmm, I'm assuming that meetingology got that
<tgm4883> I've got no input on that question. mhall119?
<mhall119> steve_fi: yes, since last year the efforts have been focused on re-writing everything in Nux and Unity 3d, but it's not been a very easy process
<tgm4883> AFAIK, bobweaver works on most of that. Unfortunately he isn't here
<mhall119> yeah, he's been the only one working on it
<tgm4883> jhop said he'd be a little late as well, although IDK if he knows any more
<mhall119> various issues with the compexity of compix and the lack of good Nux documentation has been holding it back
<tgm4883> lastly, I also pinged willcooke about the meeting, but didn't hear back
<steve_fi> ah ok, next is just does anyone know if the current build of UbuntuTV works at all on Raring?
<tgm4883> #subtopic does anyone know if the current build of UbuntuTV works at all on Raring?
<tgm4883> I'd say it's doubtful. But again, a question for bobweaver
<mhall119> I think bobweaver has the unity2d version working in Quantal now, and available in PPA that makes it easier to install and try
<bobweaver> steve_fi,  no I or at least I dont.  also the phone uses qml so once the phone code is released then there is that
<tgm4883> o/
<bobweaver> everything that I have is 12.04
<steve_fi> ah ok, thanks for the information!
<bobweaver> yo
<mhall119> hi bobweaver
<bobweaver> hello
<tgm4883> steve_fi, more questions?
<steve_fi> Nope, that's all for now thanks
<tgm4883> ok
<tgm4883> anyone else have any questions?
<tgm4883> Lets move on to status updates, and we'll ask for questions again at the end
<tgm4883> #topic Status Updates
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Ubuntu-TV Community Meeting Meeting | Current topic:  Status Updates
<tgm4883> bobweaver, any updates?
<bobweaver> as far as ?
<tgm4883> bobweaver, anything you want to update
<bobweaver> nope maybe that I will be just doing things(coding) for fun and the "heck" of it . until the phone goes public. maybe I have a lot of personal things going on
<tgm4883> ok
<tgm4883> mhall119, anything to update
<mhall119> no, but hopefully we'll have more to report once the Phone code is public and we can start getting an idea of how it will integrate with desktop and TV
<tgm4883> ok
<tgm4883> DVR/Guide update
<tgm4883> I made a large push this week with the guide scope. I'd say it is 95% done.
<tgm4883> I still need to get a guide lens written, as I'm still using the videos lens for it
<tgm4883> It also needs packaged
<tgm4883> I'll need to figure out how to package a python library as well. The library for accessing the mythtv services is probably only 30% done, but it's the 30% we need :)
<mhall119> tgm4883: I can try and help with that
<tgm4883> 100% done would mean supporting everything the services API allows, but we won't use most of that for Ubuntu TV so we can consider that portion complete
<tgm4883> mhall119, that would be very helpful :)
<tgm4883> I was going to do a video this morning showing off the features, but that didn't happen
<tgm4883> I will do one soon though
<tgm4883> now that the guide scope is mostly finished
<tgm4883> #action tgm4883 to make video showing mythtv features
<meetingology> ACTION: tgm4883 to make video showing mythtv features
<tgm4883> The DVR scope is as it was last week. 95% done
<tgm4883> The last 5% on both scopes will come after packaging and user testing
<tgm4883> #action tgm4883 mhall119 package mythtvservices library and both mythtv scopes
<meetingology> ACTION: tgm4883 mhall119 package mythtvservices library and both mythtv scopes
<bobweaver> tgm4883,  what are you targetin for that lens ?
<tgm4883> bobweaver, what do you mean?
<tgm4883> what version?
<bobweaver> version of Ubuntu ?
<tgm4883> well, we'll need an update from mhall119 on that
<tgm4883> mhall119, did that bug get sorted?
<mhall119> tgm4883: the gobject dee stuff?
<tgm4883> yea
<tgm4883> bug 1096708
<ubottu> bug 1096708 in dee (Ubuntu) "'SharedModel' object has no attribute 'append' using Python 3 on 12.04" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1096708
<mhall119> I pinged some folks about it, but I guess they haven't looked into it yet
<tgm4883> bobweaver, to answer your questions, the scopes currently work on 12.10 and above. If that bug gets fixed, then it will work on 12.04 and above
<tgm4883> For anyone unaware, Unity lens/scopes work across platforms. So these lens/scopes I'm writing can be used in a regular Ubuntu Unity Desktop
<tgm4883> That's about all the update I have
<tgm4883> Any other updates from anyone?
<tgm4883> Guess not
<tgm4883> In that case, I'm going to open it back up for questions
<tgm4883> #topic Community questions/comments/concerns
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Ubuntu-TV Community Meeting Meeting | Current topic:  Community questions/comments/concerns
<mhall119> thanks tgm4883!
<tgm4883> If anyone has any questions/comments/concerns/ideas/etc, now is the time to shout them out
<zuric> Hi, what the status of Unity 3D portage ?
<mhall119> zuric: stalled for now, we're waiting to see what is going ot happen with the QML Phone shell
<tgm4883> zuric, that was answered earlier and will be available in the logs. But a short recap... what mhall119 said
<zuric> ok thanks
<Pajn> Is any community effort wanted at this time?
<mhall119> Pajn: absolutely
<steve_fi> is help wanted on a specific version of Ubuntu?
<steve_fi> with regards to testing and submitting bugs?
<tgm4883> Community help is always wanted. I'd say we're at a point where we can actually accept help now
<tgm4883> previously, we weren't really in a position to accept community help, as there wasn't a whole lot to test
<mhall119> steve_fi: there isn't a whole lot to test atm, you can try tgm4883's MythTV scopes if you have a MythTV backend
<tgm4883> at least for me, I'll get the mythtv stuff packaged this week with mhall119's help
<bobweaver> for every one that would like to try out the newest code that I have been making you can it is built almost daily
<bobweaver> the ppa is u2t
<bobweaver> I will get link
<bobweaver> https://launchpad.net/~u2t/+archive/bleedingedge
<mhall119> also anybody who wants to hack on that
<mhall119> it's Qt/QML right?
<bobweaver> that in no way is going to be the UBuntu TV but I am sure that there is going to be things that are intergrated
<bobweaver> yeah that is unity 2d
<bobweaver> there is all sorta beta code up in there
<mhall119> so anybody who wants to experiment with some UI stuff, you can use that branch
<bobweaver> but that is like a playground
<bobweaver> yeah I have not pushed branch
<bobweaver> latest things that I have done to that are as follows
<bobweaver> made so one can switch launcher to rght or left, added previews , made new lens view and a full dbus settings changer
<bobweaver> add welcome screen mock up (what I think is going to be phone )
<bobweaver> that will be nice to look at
<bobweaver> but if there is anyone that wants to write into 3d have at it But I want nothing to do with NUX or compiz besides in unity2d spread
<bobweaver> there is alot things that need to be know about the phone only time will tell
<bobweaver> but if qml will be real easy to tie in
<bobweaver> but if anyone wants to hack at that with me have at it.
<bobweaver> I gotta run thanks mhall119  and tgm4883  and everyone else.  sorry about early this week (I have a lot going on (personal))
<tgm4883> If anyone has any questions/comments/concerns/ideas/etc, now is the time to shout them out
<tgm4883> ok, since we're getting toward the end of our time and nobody has asked any more questions I'm going to wrap this up in about 2 minutes
<tgm4883> so if anyone has any questions/comments/concerns/ideas/etc, now is the time to shout them out
<tgm4883> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Fri Jan 25 18:53:17 2013 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes (wiki):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2013/ubuntu-meeting.2013-01-25-18.05.moin.txt
<meetingology> Minutes (html):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2013/ubuntu-meeting.2013-01-25-18.05.html
<solarcloud_3srcn> Guess there's no App Review Board Meeting at 10pm till 11pm UTC today ...
#ubuntu-meeting 2013-01-26
<solarcloud_3srcn> I guess there was no Ubuntu Studio Contributors meeting at 5pm till6pm UTC, today.
#ubuntu-meeting 2013-01-27
<guampa> greetings
<AlanBell> going to schedule an IRCC meeting for later in the week
<IdleOne> Wednesday is good for me
<IdleOne> :P
<AlanBell> yeah, might do wednesday, will see what the rest of the IRCC are like for that
<AlanBell> Sunday evenings are harder than they used to be for some reason
#ubuntu-meeting 2014-01-20
<xnox> cjwatson: gobject-based C library -> so not using vala?
<cjwatson> xnox: no
<cjwatson> xnox: mostly because I don't know it (yet), TBH
<cjwatson> xnox: but also wasn't sure how bindings to a library written in vala would work
<xnox> cjwatson: fair enough =) i remember pitti to advocate it a lot for "g-object libraries" due to removing G_OBJECT_* type-system boiler-plate and easier memory management. Probably not enough benefit alone to learn C# syntax just for this project.
<cjwatson> I would like to learn it at some point, certainly, but didn't want to bloat the critical path too much ...
<pitti> stgraber, mdeslaur, kees, stgraber: TB meeting?
<pitti> not that we'd have much of an agenda
 * pitti certainly is glad that "discuss init system" isn't on it :-P
<mdeslaur> \o
<mdeslaur> pitti: hehe :)
 * stgraber waves
<mdeslaur> hrm, infinity was supposed to chair
<pitti> well, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/TechnicalBoardAgenda doesn't have much anyway
 * mdeslaur nods
<pitti> kees was leading the MRE review, and he's celebrating MLK
<pitti> stgraber, mdeslaur: do you have anything to discuss?
<mdeslaur> not me, no
<mdeslaur> pitti, stgraber: shall we cancel?
<pitti> WFM
<pitti> so, "see" you in two weeks
<pitti> bumped the date on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/TechnicalBoardAgenda
<mdeslaur> great, thanks
 * mdeslaur waves
<stgraber> nothing to discuss, happy to skip
<pitti> so, good night!
#ubuntu-meeting 2014-01-21
<jamespage> o/
<roaksoax> o/
<jamespage> roaksoax, you appear to be the chair today?
<roaksoax> jamespage: i am indeed
<roaksoax> let's wait couple more minutes for people to join and we can get started
<roaksoax> let's get started then!
<roaksoax> #startmeeting ubuntu-server-team
<meetingology> Meeting started Tue Jan 21 16:05:09 2014 UTC.  The chair is roaksoax. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic:
<roaksoax> #topic Review ACTION points from previous meeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Review ACTION points from previous meeting
<roaksoax> there doesn't seem to be any action points from previous meeting, unless anyone has anything?
<roaksoax> seems not, let's move on
<roaksoax> #topic Trusty Development
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Trusty Development
<roaksoax> #link https://wiki.ubuntu.com/TrustyTahr/ReleaseSchedule
<roaksoax> alpha 2 is this week
<roaksoax> #subtopic Release Bugs
<roaksoax> #link http://reqorts.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/rls-mgr/rls-t-tracking-bug-tasks.html#server
<roaksoax> there's quite a few unassigned release bugs
<roaksoax> bug #1062336
<ubottu> bug 1062336 in nova (Ubuntu Trusty) "nova-compute expects libvirtd group" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1062336
<roaksoax> zul: ^^
<zul> i think thats done
<roaksoax> bug #1263738
<ubottu> bug 1263738 in lxc (Ubuntu Trusty) "login console 0 in user namespace container is not configured right" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1263738
<jamespage> commited - b2
<roaksoax> seems to have some good discussion, any updates hallyn ^^
<roaksoax> jamespage: bug #1198021
<ubottu> bug 1198021 in horizon (Ubuntu Trusty) "/static apache2 alias should probably be /horizon/static" [Medium,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1198021
<jamespage> oh - we should probably knock that off for b2
<jamespage> I'll look at it
<roaksoax> jamespage: bug #1240712 -> this one also, should it be fixed on trusty too?
<ubottu> bug 1240712 in neutron (Ubuntu Trusty) "neutron-lbaas-agent DEP-8 test sometimes fails" [Medium,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1240712
<jamespage> actually horizon generally needs a good exercise due to django 1.6 upgrade
<jamespage> roaksoax, yes
<roaksoax> let's also clean that up if it is fixed then :)
<roaksoax> and yeah we need to test horizon with django 1.6
<roaksoax> what about bug #1207930
<ubottu> bug 1207930 in nova (Ubuntu Trusty) "nova should provide a nova-compute-minimal (or similar)package" [Wishlist,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1207930
<roaksoax> seems old...
<roaksoax> zul: ^^
<roaksoax> ?
<zul> uuuuuh....
<zul> we kind of have that now dont we jamespage?
<jamespage> committed yes
<jamespage> we do indeed
<smoser> o/
<jamespage> hey smoser
<roaksoax> cool, so it seems that most of this just need to get its status updated
<roaksoax> let's move on then
<roaksoax> #subtopic Blueprints
<roaksoax> #link http://status.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-t/group/topic-t-servercloud-overview.html
<roaksoax> anyone has anything to update us on their BP's?
<roaksoax> Please make sure to update your BP's accordingly provided that we are on Alpha 2 this week
<roaksoax> all those WI's that couldn't make it should either be postponed or retargetted
<roaksoax> anyone experiencing any blockers/delays?
<yolanda> we have a meeting today for the server banner stuff
<roaksoax> I guess not
<yolanda> currently blocked on openstack packages
<roaksoax> alright! thanks for the update on that one
<roaksoax> let's move on
<roaksoax> #topic Server & Cloud Bugs (caribou)
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<roaksoax> caribou: any updates?
<caribou> nothing on my side, thanks
<roaksoax> #topic Weekly Updates & Questions for the QA Team (psivaa)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Weekly Updates & Questions for the QA Team (psivaa)
<roaksoax> psivaa: any updates?
<roaksoax> i guess he is not around, let's come back to him
<roaksoax> #topic Weekly Updates & Questions for the Kernel Team (smb)
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<smb> I wanted to ask again for some help on SRUing drbd8 and iscsitarget for
<smb> Precise (to support the Saucy kernel):
<smb> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/precise/+source/iscsitarget/+bug/1262712
<smb> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/drbd8/+bug/1185756
<smb> I am better on the packaging side than doing the arguing with the SRU team.
<smb> (apparently)
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 1262712 in iscsitarget (Ubuntu Precise) "[SRU] Backport iscsitarget 1.4.20.3+svn490 into Precise" [High,Triaged]
<smb> Then just a quick notice: do not be alarmed by anything you see or experience
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 1185756 in drbd8 (Ubuntu Precise) "drbd8-utils not compatible with linux-lts-raring kernel in 12.04" [High,Confirmed]
<smb> using the 3.13.0-4 kernel. We should be back to normality with 3.13.0-5.
<smb> Anything you still cannot cope with, you may try to report to us but it might
<smb> be your own problem (sorry could not resist the loose quote).
<smb> sforshee, do you have more?
<smb> Otherwise questions?
<roaksoax> I;ll look at the drbd8 SRU
<smb> roaksoax, thanks
<roaksoax> smb: (btw I did get your ping from yesterday, but was US Holiday )
<roaksoax> so no questions for smb? Let's move on
<smb> roaksoax, Thats why it was so quiet on the other side of the Atlantic ... :)
<roaksoax> jamespage: are you taking scsitarget though ?
<roaksoax> smb: :)
<jamespage> roaksoax, hmm-ah
<jamespage> roaksoax, OK
<roaksoax> ok :)
<roaksoax> #topic Weekly Updates & Questions regarding Ubuntu ARM Server (rbasak)
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<roaksoax> rbasak: any updates?
<rbasak> No updates from me. Any questions?
<roaksoax> if noone has questions for rbasak let's move on
<roaksoax> #topic Ubuntu Server Team Events
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Ubuntu Server Team Events
<roaksoax> any upcoming events?
<jamespage> fosdem
<jamespage> start of feb
<roaksoax> jamespage: are you attending?
 * rbasak will be there
<roaksoax> cool, so we will have representation
<roaksoax> alright, then, it seems there's no other event so lets move on
<roaksoax> #topic Open Discussion
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<jamespage> noper
<roaksoax> anyone has anything to discuss today?
<psivaa> roaksoax: sorry not sure if you've seen this:
<psivaa> <psivaa> From our side, we have bug 1270228 impacting trusty server iso installations. Apperantly a kernel issue.
<psivaa> <psivaa> bug #1270228
<psivaa> <psivaa> and also there is bug 1269073 still open on tomcat
<psivaa> <roaksoax> i guess he is not around, let's come back to him
<psivaa> <psivaa> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux/+bug/1270228 the link for the first bug, sorry
<ubottu> bug 1270228 in linux (Ubuntu) ""Loading partman-xfs failed for unknown reasons. Aborting" error in trusty server installations" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1270228
<ubottu> bug 1269073 in tomcat7 (Ubuntu) "test_tomcat_daemon smoke test failure on images with 3.13 kernel " [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1269073
<roaksoax> psivaa: we did! But thanks for  that
<roaksoax> jamespage: ^^
<roaksoax> smoser: ^^
<roaksoax> it seems that the issue might have been identified
<roaksoax> we will keep an eye on it
<smb> At least partman-xfs is the weird thing I mentioned before about kernel 3.13.0-4
<smb> The tomcat issue looks to be related to some change filling urandom quicker on boot (possibly taking away randomness from filling random)
<roaksoax> awesome, thanks for the input
<roaksoax> hopefully we will get some sort of solution soon
<roaksoax> other than that
<roaksoax> if noone has anything else to discuss
<roaksoax> we can call it
<roaksoax> #topic Announce next meeting date and time
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Announce next meeting date and time
<roaksoax> same place/time
<roaksoax> thank's all for coming
<roaksoax> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Tue Jan 21 16:29:31 2014 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes (wiki):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2014/ubuntu-meeting.2014-01-21-16.05.moin.txt
<meetingology> Minutes (html):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2014/ubuntu-meeting.2014-01-21-16.05.html
<jsalisbury> #startmeeting
<jsalisbury> ##
<jsalisbury> ## This is the Ubuntu Kernel Team weekly status meeting.
<jsalisbury> ##
<jsalisbury> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/Meeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Tue Jan 21 17:00:10 2014 UTC.  The chair is jsalisbury. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
<jsalisbury> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/ReleaseStatus/Trusty
<jsalisbury> # Meeting Etiquette
<jsalisbury> #
<jsalisbury> # NOTE: '..' indicates that you are finished with your input.
<jsalisbury> #       'o/' indicates you have something to add (please wait until you are recognized)
<jsalisbury> Roll Call for Ubuntu Kernel Weekly Status Meeting
<ppisati> o/
<rtg> o/
<henrix> o/
<smb> o/
<bjf> o/
<sforshee> o/
<kamal> o/
<cking> o/
<sconklin> o/
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] ARM Status (ppisati)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: ARM Status (ppisati)
<ppisati> Nothing new to report this week.
<ppisati> ..
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] Release Metrics and Incoming Bugs (jsalisbury)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Release Metrics and Incoming Bugs (jsalisbury)
<jsalisbury> Release metrics and incoming bug data can be reviewed at the following link:
<jsalisbury> [LINK] http://people.canonical.com/~kernel/reports/kt-meeting.txt
<jsalisbury> ..
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] Milestone Targeted Work Items
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Milestone Targeted Work Items
<jsalisbury> No new update this week.
<jsalisbury> ..
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] Status: Trusty Development Kernel
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Status: Trusty Development Kernel
<jsalisbury> No new update this week.
<jsalisbury> ..
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] Status: CVE's
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Status: CVE's
<jsalisbury> The current CVE status can be reviewed at the following link:
<jsalisbury> http://people.canonical.com/~kernel/cve/pkg/ALL-linux.html
<jsalisbury> ..
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] Status: Stable, Security, and Bugfix Kernel Updates - Saucy/Quantal/Precise/Lucid (bjf/henrix/sconklin)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Status: Stable, Security, and Bugfix Kernel Updates - Saucy/Quantal/Precise/Lucid (bjf/henrix/sconklin)
<bjf> Status for the main kernels, until today (Nov. 26):
<bjf>   *   Lucid - Holding
<bjf>   * Precise - Holding
<bjf>   * Quantal - Holding
<bjf>   *   Saucy - Holding
<bjf>  
<bjf> We are in a holding pattern waiting to see if any regressions show up that would cause us
<bjf> to respin before the 12.04.4 release goes out.
<bjf>  
<bjf> Current opened tracking bugs details:
<bjf>   * http://people.canonical.com/~kernel/reports/kernel-sru-workflow.html
<bjf> For SRUs, SRU report is a good source of information:
<bjf>   * http://people.canonical.com/~kernel/reports/sru-report.html
<bjf>  
<bjf> Note: Raring hit EOL and is no longer supported. However, the lts-backport-raring kernel
<bjf>       *WILL* continue to be supported until the first point release of the next LTS (14.04.1).
<bjf> ..
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] Open Discussion or Questions? Raise your hand to be recognized (o/)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Open Discussion or Questions? Raise your hand to be recognized (o/)
<jsalisbury> No meeting next week due to the kernel team sprint.
<jsalisbury> Thanks everyone
<jsalisbury> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Tue Jan 21 17:04:00 2014 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes (wiki):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2014/ubuntu-meeting.2014-01-21-17.00.moin.txt
<meetingology> Minutes (html):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2014/ubuntu-meeting.2014-01-21-17.00.html
<kamal> thanks jsalisbury!
<sconklin> thanks jsalisbury
#ubuntu-meeting 2014-01-22
<AlanBell> hi all
<AlanBell> #startmeeting IRC team
<meetingology> Meeting started Wed Jan 22 18:01:49 2014 UTC.  The chair is AlanBell. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | IRC team Meeting | Current topic:
<IdleOne> o/
<AlanBell> hi all
<AlanBell> so, this is the first meeting of the new IRCC
<IdleOne> *applause*
<AlanBell> I have been rather frantic and not much on IRC over the last month or so, but hopefully things will settle down a bit
<rww_elsewhere> o/
<rww_elsewhere> Congrats new IRCC people :)
<hggdh> ~\o
<AlanBell> the agenda is here, but I don't promise to stick to it :) https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IRC/IrcCouncil/MeetingAgenda
<AlanBell> #topic Review last meetings action items
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<AlanBell> the main actions from the last meeting were to make sure that the election happened, which it did \o/
<AlanBell> #topic chair of the IRCC
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | IRC team Meeting | Current topic: chair of the IRCC
<AlanBell> first item of business for the new year is for the IRCC to decide who is going to be the chair going forward
 * hggdh proposes AlanBell
<IdleOne> haha
 * hggdh hides for a while
<AlanBell> it isn't an unchangeable position, we can flip it about as much as we like, I have been chair for the last couple of years, I am more than happy to hand over to someone else
<AlanBell> what it involves is sorting out meeting times, running the meeting itself and having a casting vote
<AlanBell> personally I think IdleOne has a bit more availability than me at the moment and he just volunteered to chair the next 5 meetings \o/
<hggdh> well, then, given that IdleOne has pretty much done the first one, I also vote for him
<IdleOne> I did do that huh
<rww_elsewhere> casting vote would only come into effect because of abstaining, right? since there's an odd number of people
<AlanBell> rww_elsewhere: yeah, someone abstaining or absent
<hggdh> casting vote should only come up on draws
<IdleOne> alright, I'll be chair for the next 5 meetings. We can then change chair or I'll keep on sitting
<rww_elsewhere> okay, so not more power than I trust IdleOne with >:D
<AlanBell> it hasn't been used in the last two years, we have come to a consensus
<hggdh> after, we can as well rotate it
<AlanBell> yup, can be rotated, or moved on to someone else for a bit
<AlanBell> ok, so I think we agree on that going forward
<IdleOne> agreed
<hggdh> aye
<AlanBell> #agreed Idleone to be the chair of the IRCC
 * IdleOne places crown on his own head because nobody else is worthy of doing it.
<AlanBell> heh
<rww_elsewhere> mock the enthroned
<AlanBell> we have no items in the tracker or bugs, so lets move on to operator applicants . . .
<AlanBell> #topic Operator Applicants
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | IRC team Meeting | Current topic: Operator Applicants
<AlanBell> there is one deactivated account in a queue, I will just get rid of that one
<AlanBell> lets start with rww_elsewhere who has applied for ops in #ubuntu I think
<rww_elsewhere> #ubuntu, #ubuntu-offtopic, and #ubuntu-ops, iirc
<AlanBell> yeah, just running my little script
<rww_elsewhere> (first two are re-applications for privs I previously had, #ubuntu-ops would be new)
<AlanBell> rww_elsewhere: were you an operator in those channels for more than 12 months?
<rww_elsewhere> hrm
 * rww_elsewhere pulls logs from google, sec
<rww_elsewhere> AlanBell: I suspect so, yes.
<rww_elsewhere> don't have definite numbers though, I'm at work
<AlanBell> yeah, I am pretty sure it was over a year too
<IdleOne> same here
<AlanBell> that is the criteria for ops in -ops so I just wanted to check we were following our own rules on that
<AlanBell> #vote approve rww for ops in #ubuntu #ubuntu-offtopic and #ubuntu-ops
<meetingology> Please vote on: approve rww for ops in #ubuntu #ubuntu-offtopic and #ubuntu-ops
<meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (private votes don't work yet, but when they do it will be by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0 to me)
<AlanBell> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from AlanBell
<hggdh> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from hggdh
<IdleOne> +1 for all 3 channels
<meetingology> +1 for all 3 channels received from IdleOne
<hggdh> hrumph. For the record, my +1 is for all 3 channels
<AlanBell> I think that is all of us for the moment, pici is a bit busy and Tm_T isn't with us right now
<AlanBell> #endvote
<meetingology> Voting ended on: approve rww for ops in #ubuntu #ubuntu-offtopic and #ubuntu-ops
<meetingology> Votes for:3 Votes against:0 Abstentions:0
<meetingology> Motion carried
<IdleOne> Welcome back to the team rww_elsewhere :)
<AlanBell> yay, we will sort out the chanserv bits shortly rww_elsewhere
<rww_elsewhere> thank you :)
<hggdh> :-)
<AlanBell> ok, next application is phunyguy who has applied for ops in #ubuntu-offtopic
<AlanBell> https://launchpad.net/~robtongue
<AlanBell> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/phunyguy
<rww_elsewhere> I didn't get around to editing the wiki, but I strongly support this application. phunyguy's relatively sensible, and gets on well with all of #u-ot.
<AlanBell> I agree, phunyguy has been around for a long time, gets on with people and is helpful
<rww_elsewhere> good at catalyzing too, which is something we need more of in there
<AlanBell> any other comments before a vote?
<IdleOne> I'm good to go
<Tm_T> hi sitting in a car with poor connection
<AlanBell> #vote phunyguy for ops in #ubuntu-offtopic
<meetingology> Please vote on: phunyguy for ops in #ubuntu-offtopic
<meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (private votes don't work yet, but when they do it will be by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0 to me)
<AlanBell> #voters Tm_T AlanBell Pici IdleOne hggdh
<meetingology> Current voters: AlanBell IdleOne Pici Tm_T hggdh
<AlanBell> +1 from me
<meetingology> +1 from me received from AlanBell
<hggdh> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from hggdh
<IdleOne> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from IdleOne
<Tm_T> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from Tm_T
<AlanBell> #endvote
<meetingology> Voting ended on: phunyguy for ops in #ubuntu-offtopic
<meetingology> Votes for:4 Votes against:0 Abstentions:0
<meetingology> Motion carried
<IdleOne> Congrats phunyguy and welcome to the ops team :)
<hggdh> phunyguy: welcome :-)
<AlanBell> now rww is basically reactivating a previously held membership of the team, but phunyguy is new to this so needs a bit of mentoring and help with the chanserv use etc
<AlanBell> and I think rww would make a most excellent mentor
<IdleOne> +1
<hggdh> indeed. rww, would you please?
<rww_elsewhere> this is an evil plot to make me more sensible and catalytic, isn't it... :P
<IdleOne> we're not asking.
<rww_elsewhere> yes, I would love to :)
<IdleOne> :)
<AlanBell> great, thanks rww_elsewhere
<hggdh> :-)
<IdleOne> thanks rww
<Tm_T> danke
<IdleOne> I'll sort out the relevant ACL entries soon.
<AlanBell> ok, moving on, we have no membership applications
<AlanBell> there is a topic "Globally enable ubottu's ban removal feature." but I am not sure what the background to that is
<AlanBell> unit193 added it
<AlanBell> it is probably a good suggestion, but I am not sure we are ready to discuss it right now without unit193 in the channel to propose it
<AlanBell> #topic any other business
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | IRC team Meeting | Current topic: any other business
<AlanBell> does anyone have anything else they would like to discuss at this point?
<AlanBell> things we should bring up at the next meeting perhaps?
<AlanBell> anything from the open letter that was sent to the list back in November that we should be addressing now?
<jussi> yeah.
<hggdh> IdleOne suggested a review of the !ops for -devel. We, perhaps should review all of them for applicability
<IdleOne> I'll let jussi go ahead
<rww_elsewhere> I'd recommend (possibly temporarily) broadening the list, since we have a couple of trolls who target it specifically because most of can't access it. I am not volunteering to be added to that ops list.
<jussi> I was thinking about it - perhaps we should make it a bit clearer what actions are/can be taken against an operator by the IRCC, so that people who have a complaint can see that things dont just get swept under the carpet, but are actually dealt with properly.
<rww_elsewhere> target that channel * most of us can't op it *
<hggdh> jussi: don't we describe the possible actions against an abusive ops?
<rww_elsewhere> (sorry, lag. back to jussi)
<IdleOne> jussi: what sort of actions did you have in mind?
<AlanBell> jussi: "Appointing or recalling IRC operators or determining criteria by which they are appointed." is something we can do
<hggdh> or are we missing more visibility?
<jussi> IdleOne: it could range from simply saying, ok, misdemeanor, youve a warning, to a time based disqualification from operating in that channel/all channels or complete removal of ops
<AlanBell> generally the aim is more towards conflict resolution rather than sanctions for operators
<rww_elsewhere> and conflict resolution is mostly internal to minimize drama, so we can't really demonstrate it publicly
<jussi> AlanBell: yes, I understand that, but by not having sanctions at all, mean that basically, not much happens if there is an issue, and there is no "paper trail"
<hggdh> but some sort of public resolution might be needed, I think
<IdleOne> I'm not comfortable with listing possible sanctions to ops for the world to see. I think it would give problem users more ammunition to use.
<jussi> IdleOne: we list possible actions to users, why not to operators?
<rww_elsewhere> on the other hand, a lack of details is ammunition for them to use that we're a cabal
<AlanBell> yeah, I am not sure about the helpfulness of time based bans on operators
<hggdh> but we should at least acknowlege there are sanctions for ops
<IdleOne> jussi, rww: both good points
<AlanBell> we have the sanction of removing operators, we can also overturn an operator decision
<AlanBell> both of which are rare but not totally unheard of
<rww_elsewhere> assuming those are both listed somewhere, perhaps add the sanction of temporarily suspending op privileges for ops that are burned out and acting problematically accordingly
<rww_elsewhere> not that we'd necessarily need it, but it might be a useful middle ground between those two
<hggdh> and, given a complaint, we should publicly announce its resolution (either as "dispute resolved between the parts", or as "declined", or as "whatever done")
<jussi> AlanBell: so what Im seeking is discussion on what could be some more detail/other things there, (if any at all).
<hggdh> I agree with AlanBell that an internal conflict resolution should not be made public; but some sort of public announcement should be done
<hggdh> may I propose we follow on that via email to the ML?
<jussi> yes, I dont think the details need to be made public either, that was not my point
<hggdh> jussi: yes, I follow you, and agree on at least announcing the result. This is fair.
<AlanBell> I think we need to look back at some examples, and what we might have announced under that principal
<AlanBell> so yeah, further discussion on the mailing list and in -irc and/or -ops-team would be good on this topic I think
<hggdh> agree. One of the points jussi brought up is we do not list how we can sanction ops, but we list how we can sanction users. Not balanced
<AlanBell> well we do, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IRC/IrcCouncil/Charter
<AlanBell> it is just a short list :)
<hggdh> well, OK, I stand corrected :-)
<jussi> btw, as a quick additional thing, don't we think its time to remove these:
<jussi> The Community Council will have a member sit on the IRC Council until June 2010. This will be a temporary seat. This member will offer advice, mentor and report back to the Community council. This member shall not have a casting vote.
<jussi> The Community Council will review the state of the IRC Council in June 2010 and act upon its review if it feels necessary.
<AlanBell> yeah, probably is redundant now, we can trim that
<hggdh> rather old indeed
<AlanBell> ok, another topic, when should we have IRC team meetings like this one?
<AlanBell> this is a wednesday 18:00 meeting, we had been meeting on Sunday evenings, but that was getting increasingly inconvenient for people
<jussi> seems the evenins eu time is good for most, excpt our asian/aussie friends
<IdleOne> 1800 UTC makes it difficult for those on the American continent with actual real life things to do
<AlanBell> IdleOne as chair gets to decide the time of the next meeting, but it would be good to pick a time that is good for more people
<hggdh> as far as I am concerned,it is good for me (translates to 1200 CST)
<IdleOne> agreed
<IdleOne> this time also works for me. but as we saw with Pici he got called into a meeting at work.
<IdleOne> Tm_T: this time work for you?
<IdleOne> I guess I can figure out what works best for everyone later
<AlanBell> yeah, maybe I will try and run some timestamp stats on -ops to see when people are talkative
<IdleOne> RE -devel: we can do the -devel ops factoid fix behind the scenes, ask for volunteers from the ops pool.
<AlanBell> ok, lets wrap this meeting up now, unless anyone has any extra items?
<hggdh> nope
<IdleOne> I'm good.
<AlanBell> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Wed Jan 22 18:53:48 2014 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes (wiki):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2014/ubuntu-meeting.2014-01-22-18.01.moin.txt
<meetingology> Minutes (html):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2014/ubuntu-meeting.2014-01-22-18.01.html
<AlanBell> thanks all
<IdleOne> thank you everybody for showing up :)
<AlanBell> and IdleOne now has the chair
<AlanBell> (it is still warm)
<hggdh> jussi: care to spearhead on what you asked (on the ML)?
#ubuntu-meeting 2014-01-23
 * slangasek waves
<stokachu> o/
<jodh> o/
<slangasek> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Thu Jan 23 16:02:08 2014 UTC.  The chair is slangasek. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
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 * stgraber waves
<slangasek> [TOPIC] Lightning round
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Lightning round
<stokachu> stgraber: thanks for the blog post on unpriveleged containers
<slangasek> $ echo $(shuf -e barry doko stgraber jodh bdmurray slangasek cjwatson xnox stokachu)
<slangasek> bdmurray xnox cjwatson slangasek barry jodh doko stokachu stgraber
<bdmurray> submitted mp for P ubiquity bug 1051935
<bdmurray> uploaded a fix to S and T for whoopsie bug 1245524
<bdmurray> worked with dames to setup the error tracker in canonistack
<bdmurray> running apport integration tests against canonistack
<ubottu> bug 1051935 in ubiquity (Ubuntu Precise) "Fails with SystemError when too many files are open" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1051935
<ubottu> bug 1245524 in whoopsie (Ubuntu) "whoopsie fails to immediately notice/process .upload files" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1245524
<bdmurray> recreated the "Could not retrace" error seen in production
<bdmurray> reported apport bug 1271258 regarding Contents.gz
<bdmurray> pushed branch fixing apport bug 1271258
<bdmurray> updated daisy's retracer sources.list files with more deb-src lines
<ubottu> bug 1271258 in Apport "apport-retrace fails with crash files with libraries not from the release pocket" [Undecided,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1271258
<bdmurray> submitted RT #67174 regarding updating apport on the retracers
<bdmurray> updated apport-test-crashes bzr branch so the trusty crashes would be newer
<bdmurray> â done
<xnox> * autopilot-emulator runners working on porting to stable
<xnox>   ubuntu-emulator (emulator manager written in go)
<xnox> * fixed cmake cross-compilation regression, clicks/debs things should
<xnox>   cross-compile in trusty again
<xnox> * uploaded fixec abi-compliance-checker, to drop gcc-4.8 version
<xnox>   checks as that issue is fixed in debian/ubuntu
<xnox> * uploaded ubiquity fixing a1/a2 (mostly gtk-3.10) related issues
<xnox> * uploaded SRU ubiquity with all the fixes for 12.04.4, please
<xnox>   review/approve
<xnox> * uploaded SRU partman-crypto with stronger crypto defaults, please
<xnox>   review/approve
<xnox> * reviwing dmraid patches to drop dm-raid45, should resume installer
<xnox>   fixes to land mdadm-based fakeraid installation and unblock landing
<xnox>   dmraid->mdadm migration
<xnox> * added a couple of autopilot (emulator + ubiquity) &
<xnox>   cross-compilation topics for the sprint
<xnox> * worked with doko a little to untangle ffmpeg/libav8 nbs
<xnox> ..
<cjwatson> GRUB:
<cjwatson>  - Applied bi-endian ELF parser patch.
<cjwatson>  - Tidied up a few packaging bugs introduced when merging 2.02~beta2.
<cjwatson>  - Organised some real-world testing of 2.02~beta2 (http://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/ucgi/~cjwatson/blosxom/2014-01-18-testing-wanted-grub-2.02-beta2.html); fixed a few bugs that resulted.  There's still the odd problem, but I think it should be good to go into trusty tomorrow or Monday.
<cjwatson> Click:
<cjwatson>  - Added ${short-id} hook pattern expansion (bug 1251635).
<ubottu> bug 1251635 in upstart-app-launch (Ubuntu) "drop version numbers from users' .desktop file names" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1251635
<cjwatson>  - Stripped trailing slashes from hook patterns (bug 1253855).
<ubottu> bug 1253855 in click (Ubuntu) "strip any trailing slash from hook Pattern entry" [Low,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1253855
<cjwatson>  - Added support for apps requiring multiple frameworks.
<cjwatson> 12.04.4:
<cjwatson>  - More chasing of various SRUs.
<cjwatson>  - Uploaded d-i for other series so that I can fully QA a kickseed SRU.
<cjwatson> Miscellaneous:
<cjwatson>  - Some work on the libwebp transition.
<cjwatson>  - Merged partman-auto.
<cjwatson>  - Minimal proof of concept of autopilot/emulator tests driven by autopkgtest, based on xnox's work.
<cjwatson>  - Organised a launchpad-buildd upgrade (now with IS), including the slave side of livefs-in-LP.
<cjwatson> ..
<cjwatson> xnox: I'll review partman-crypto today; somebody else should review ubiquity since I have a change in there
<xnox> cjwatson: thanks.
<cjwatson> though I don't see ubiquity in the precise-proposed queue
<xnox> hm. checking.
<stgraber> cjwatson: I can take ubiquity once it's in the queue
<cjwatson> ta
<slangasek>  * short week, bank holiday on Monday
<slangasek>  * working with the emulator locally to test pam 1.1.8 before upload
<slangasek>   * going down a rabbit hole wrt autopilot tests and upstart jobs on the phone
<slangasek>  * looking at what's required for Java support in 14.04
<slangasek>  * ongoing discussions in Debian about init systems for jessie
<slangasek>  * prepared slides/video summary of Foundations client-side roadmap in 14.04, which will be posted publically for the community on youtube soonish (tomorrow?)
<slangasek>  * taking tomorrow off - see you in London :)
<slangasek> (done)
<jodh> * core-1311-upstart-roadmap:
<jodh>   - cgroup support: Updated code for cgmanager 0.16.
<jodh>   - async spawning: Ongoing work to resolve script job bug.
<jodh> * upstart:
<jodh>   - bug 1269731: Fixed and wrote new tests. Landed upstream and uploaded as
<ubottu> bug 1269731 in upstart "init crashed with SIGSEGV" [Critical,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1269731
<jodh>       upstart 1.11-0ubuntu2.
<jodh>   - DEP-8 tests: Attempted a nested kvm setup using canonistack as bug
<jodh>     1208509 may now be fixed in trusty we believe. However, since the
<jodh>     latest images are a week old, they suffer from bug 1269731 (meaning
<jodh>     the guest dies when the packages are automatically updated before
<jodh>     the tests are run. I'll wait until there is a new image containing
<jodh>     upstart 1.11-0ubuntu2 then try again.
<jodh>   - Wrote a periodic-logrotate job that could be useful until Upstart
<jodh>     grows a time bridge (since currently we only run logrotate once) and
<jodh>     raised an MP for discussion:
<jodh>     https://code.launchpad.net/~jamesodhunt/ubuntu/trusty/upstart/periodic-logrotate/+merge/202434
<jodh>   - Fixed Upstart element of bug 1263738 such that Upstart will not own
<ubottu> bug 1263738 in lxc (Ubuntu Trusty) "login console 0 in user namespace container is not configured right" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1263738
<slangasek> xnox: when did you fix the cmake cross-compilation regression?  Does that fix the problem ChickenCutlass was seeing yesterday with powerd?
<jodh>     the console, even in an lxc container (where /dev/kmsg is linked to /dev/console).
<jodh>     https://code.launchpad.net/~jamesodhunt/upstart/kmsg-noctty/+merge/202673
<jodh>     (Thanks to stgraber for reviewing and additional testing!)
<jodh> â
<stokachu> kermit?
<xnox> slangasek: i fixed it couple of hours ago. Let me test powerd quickly.
<slangasek> xnox: oh, I used abi-compliance-checker on qt5 this past week (hmm, shoulda put that in the status report) - nice little tool, though for Qt5.0->Qt5.2 the reports are oppressively verbose :)
<doko> - working today together with the Berlin locals in an office
<doko> - Mon, Tue another two days of merges, nbs, component mismatches, MIR's
<doko> - look at (and fix) libffi / python-cffi issues on armhf, arm64 (with Will Newton)
<doko> - GCC 4.9 updates, GCC 4.8 updates
<doko> - gccgo merges and backports
<doko> - main test rebuild evaluation
<doko> - ppc64el fixes
<doko> - build the mono stack for ppc64el
<doko> (done)
<xnox> slangasek: i think, all we want is to construct a chroot / phone-image with 5.2 stack, take system dump of that chroot, and then simply run abi-compliance-checker against binary / library and ask it to say if it's compatible with this new system-dump or not.
<stokachu> bug 833994 is coming up again, seems the users just want https and do not care about verification
<ubottu> bug 833994 in debian-installer-utils (Ubuntu) "debian-installer does not support https when using with preseed files" [Medium,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/833994
<stokachu> (done)
<xnox> slangasek: i think that's easier, rather than tracking all internal exposed details of qt 5.0 -> 5.2 changes.
<stgraber>  - cgmanager:
<stgraber>    - Did a few pre-upload package reviews
<stgraber>    - NEWed the package into the archive
<stgraber>  - LXC:
<stgraber>    - Fixed PAM harder to make it work with unprivileged containers.
<stgraber>    - Wrote about unprivileged LXC: https://www.stgraber.org/2014/01/17/lxc-1-0-unprivileged-containers/
<stgraber>    - Worked pretty hard to get unprivileged LXC to be as close to privileged LXC feature-wise (got lxc-attach working, fixed a ton of small bugs here and there).
<stgraber>    - A ton of code reviews (got all outstanding pull requests handled, same with all patches sent to various lists), started to go through outstanding bugs.
<stgraber>  - Ubuntu touch
<slangasek> jodh: which image are you using in canonistack that's a week old?  Surely we should have fresh images available daily?
<stgraber>    - Some more work on the system-image branch for ports/private servers (found a couple of nasty bugs, fixed and now working on tests).
<stgraber>  - Other
<stgraber>    - SRU/New reviews
<stgraber>    - Released pastebinit 1.4 and 1.4.1
<stgraber>    - A few merges
<stgraber>  - TODO this week
<stgraber>    - Some more LXC work, with the plan of releasing a beta3 before the sprint
<stgraber>    - Test and setup PPA builds of LXC with cgmanager now that it's in the archive
<stgraber>    - Try and get that system-image branch merged (will try to write the remaining tests on the plane)
<stgraber> (DONE)
<xnox> jodh: daily channell or released channel openstack/juju images?
<jodh> slangasek/xnox: dunno - I'm calling euca-describe-images
<slangasek> xnox: yeah, for 5.2 purposes I was trying to answer the specific question of whether the qreal size change had a practical impact on our existing app store; so I did a bit of post-processing of the a-c-c dump :)
<xnox> slangasek: hehe. right. Hm, you have access to all appstore for analysis? can i have such access as well?
<xnox> slangasek: or are you iterating via sso-authenticated api?
<jodh> slangasek/xnox: newest official(?) image looks like ubuntu-daily/ubuntu-trusty-daily-amd64-server-20140116.1-disk1.img
<slangasek> stgraber: "fixed PAM harder"> did you need me to upload the latest changes to trusty?  feel free to do so now that it's upstream
<slangasek> stgraber: (I'd appreciate you committing your changes to the bzr branch too, of course)
<xnox> jodh: i wonder if it's alpha2 related, i did ask for cloud image respin due to kernel bugs. Let me ping cloudy people about it.
<jodh> xnox: cool - ta.
<slangasek> stgraber: upstream made a few tweaks on top of your commit, so I hadn't had a chance to look at which bits we needed, smash it into a single patch, etc.
<xnox> jodh: there is utlemming/testing/ubuntu-trusty-amd64-20140123-1390436026
<xnox> jodh: which should have kernel fixes in.
<jodh> xnox: yeah, saw that but don't know how vanilla it is
<xnox> jodh: it's as prestine as ubuntu-daily
<slangasek> xnox: I have "popey got me a dump of all the packages and posted them where I could download them" access
<stgraber> slangasek: well, ideally we'd want to have this in Debian too since lxc-download now builds daily Debian images too, but yeah, I can apply my change straight to Ubuntu for now until you get around to cleaning things up and uploading to Debian
<slangasek> xnox: so yeah, sso-authenticated api... one step removed
<xnox> slangasek: popey-proxy =)
<xnox> =))))
<slangasek> stgraber: if you apply it to Ubuntu, I'll just pick it back into Debian :)
 * popey wakes
<slangasek> ok - anything else on status?
<slangasek> cjwatson: stokachu mentioned bug #833994.  Should we maybe turn this into a blueprint for what the acceptable technical approach would be, so that it doesn't keep getting rehashed?
<ubottu> bug 833994 in debian-installer-utils (Ubuntu) "debian-installer does not support https when using with preseed files" [Medium,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/833994
<cjwatson> oh, infinity and I got grub2 working on ppc64el this morning, ish
<slangasek> \o/
<cjwatson> slangasek: yeah, I guess.  I don't think I have time this week though ...
<slangasek> cjwatson: ack
<slangasek> [TOPIC] AOB
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: AOB
<slangasek> anything else?
<slangasek> I guess we'll have plenty of time to talk about everything at the sprint next week, so maybe not
<slangasek> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Thu Jan 23 16:22:51 2014 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes (wiki):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2014/ubuntu-meeting.2014-01-23-16.02.moin.txt
<meetingology> Minutes (html):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2014/ubuntu-meeting.2014-01-23-16.02.html
<slangasek> ok then :)
<slangasek> see you in London!
<jodh> thanks - cu!
<stgraber> thanks! see you there
<xnox> slangasek: apart from https://code.launchpad.net/~xnox/powerd/ftxbfs/+merge/202891 it all cross-builds for powerd
<slangasek> xnox: ok, so you took care of the bit where cmake was calling /usr/bin/cc, thanks :)
<slangasek> xnox: and yeah, I already flagged the python:any thing to Chicken.  Can you let him know that cmake is fixed?
#ubuntu-meeting 2014-01-26
<an0n432O> hi
#ubuntu-meeting 2015-01-19
<Laney> so like
<Laney> we forgot to meet
<Laney> !dmb-ping
<ubottu> bdrung, ScottK, Laney, micahg, xnox, bdmurray, stgraber: DMB ping
 * stgraber waves
<xnox> yo
 * xnox has another meeting in half an hour
<Laney> there's no agenda
<Laney> shall I send the call for nominations with the timeline in the mail?
<xnox> yeah.
#ubuntu-meeting 2015-01-20
<smoser> o/
<coreycb> #startmeeting ubuntu-server-team
<meetingology> Meeting started Tue Jan 20 16:00:09 2015 UTC.  The chair is coreycb. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic:
<gnuoy`> o/
<coreycb> Good morning everyone, and welcome to the weekly server team meeting
<arges> o/
<coreycb> or afternoon, etc
<coreycb> well the first order of business, of course, it's jamespage's birthday!
<coreycb> I think he's 25 or so.
<coreycb> So happy birthday jamespage!
<rharper> \o
<coreycb> #topic Review ACTION points from previous meeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Review ACTION points from previous meeting
<jamespage> thanks coreycb
<jamespage> only 21 actually
<rharper> heh
<coreycb> action item from last week: gaughen to establish new qa-team point of contact for server team
<jamespage> I must look old for my age of something
<coreycb> :)
<gaughen> coreycb, that is in progress. beisner and I are working on it.
<kickinz1> o/
<beisner> o/
<coreycb> gaughen, ok want me to keep it as an action item?
<gaughen> coreycb, sure
<coreycb> #ACTION: gaughen to establish new qa-team point of contact for server team
<meetingology> ACTION: : gaughen to establish new qa-team point of contact for server team
 * rbasak waves at teward 
<teward> o/
<coreycb> #topic Vivid Development
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Vivid Development
<coreycb> #link https://wiki.ubuntu.com/VividVervet/ReleaseSchedule
<coreycb> today is Jan 20th
<coreycb> Jan 22nd is alpha 2 (For opt-in flavors)
<coreycb> Feb 19th is feature freeze and debian import freeze
<coreycb> #subtopic Release Bugs
<coreycb> #link http://reqorts.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/rls-mgr/rls-v-tracking-bug-tasks.html#ubuntu-server
<coreycb> we have 4 ubuntu-server bugs, none of which are new since last week
<smoser> the cloud-init ones are mine and will be uploaded to vivid this week for sure.
<coreycb> smoser, thanks sounds good
<coreycb> jamespage, do we need to poke anyone on juju systemd?
<jamespage> coreycb, they know
<jamespage> :-)
<coreycb> and last but not least we have #1385851
<coreycb> bug #1385851
<ubottu> bug 1385851 in openvpn (Ubuntu Vivid) "OpenVPN only supports TLS v1.0" [Medium,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1385851
<coreycb> patch is upstream and needs to get picked up
<coreycb> ok so moving on..
<coreycb> #subtopic Blueprints
<coreycb> #link http://status.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-v/group/topic-v-server.html
<coreycb> #link https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/topic-v-server
<coreycb> Everyone please keep your blueprints updated
<coreycb> Does anyone have anything to add?
<beisner> ahrg.   fyi, a pip upgrade of tempest-lib is probably necessary for anyone doing tempest smoke tests from o-c-t
<beisner> ha, wrong channel, but might be useful here too.  ;-)
<coreycb> beisner, ok thanks for the info! :)
<coreycb> ok so let's move on then
<coreycb> #topic Server & Cloud Bugs (caribou)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Server & Cloud Bugs (caribou)
 * coreycb pokes caribou
<caribou> sorry TZ mixup
<coreycb> hey great timing caribou
<coreycb> you're up with Server & Cloud Bugs
<caribou> nothing in particular, busy on some obscure CUPS bug
<caribou> & apport upstream issues
<coreycb> ok does anyone have anything for caribou ?
<coreycb> ok thanks caribou
<coreycb> #topic Weekly Updates & Questions for the QA Team (psivaa)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Weekly Updates & Questions for the QA Team (psivaa)
 * coreycb pokes psivaa
<coreycb> ok let's move on for now at least
<coreycb> #topic Weekly Updates & Questions for the Kernel Team (smb, sforshee, arges)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Weekly Updates & Questions for the Kernel Team (smb, sforshee, arges)
<smb> I would kindly like to bring up bug 1410363 which I really need more information for. Not looking at anybody in particular but... jamespage !?
<ubottu> bug 1410363 in linux (Ubuntu) "partition table updates require a reboot" [High,Incomplete] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1410363
<jamespage> smb, ah - I need to get you access
<jamespage> smb, we can sort that out
<jamespage> sorry
<smb> jamespage, Or answer the question in the bug :)
<coreycb> ok I'll make an action item and move on
<coreycb> #ACTION: jamespage to answer question in bug 1410363 in response to smb
<meetingology> ACTION: : jamespage to answer question in bug 1410363 in response to smb
<ubottu> bug 1410363 in linux (Ubuntu) "partition table updates require a reboot" [High,Incomplete] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1410363
<coreycb> do we have anything else to cover from/for the kernel team?
<coreycb> ok moving on
<coreycb> and sorry psivaa, I do recall he's moved on from QA (thus the action item earlier)
<coreycb> #topic Ubuntu Server Team Events
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Ubuntu Server Team Events
<coreycb> well, other than birthdays, anything going on?
<rbasak> FOSDEM is soon
<coreycb> ok thanks rbasak
<coreycb> anyone going?
<rbasak> I think I'm skipping it this year. I've too much on at the weekends right now :(
<coreycb> ok
<coreycb> #topic Open Discussion
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Open Discussion
<coreycb> Does anyone have anything else they would like to discuss or mention?
<coreycb> Ok then back to work!
<coreycb> #topic Announce next meeting date and time
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Announce next meeting date and time
<coreycb> Our next meeting will be Jan 27th at the same time
<coreycb> jamespage, you are marked as the next chair
<coreycb> Have a good week everyone
<coreycb> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Tue Jan 20 16:24:02 2015 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2015/ubuntu-meeting.2015-01-20-16.00.moin.txt
<gnuoy`> thanks coreycb
<kickinz1> thanks coreycb
<teward> coreycb: was going to say nginx is on my radar 24/7 and there's another merge coming as soon as the next debian updates come for it (assuming before featurefreeze).  last merge introduced out of the box POODLE mitigations in the default confs.
<caribou> thanks coreycb
<coreycb> teward, shoot, sorry
<teward> since i know there's more and more people using nginx instead of apache, even in Ubuntu
<teward> coreycb: no problem, i'm fighting my VPN to stay online
<teward> so i had a connection derp either way
<coreycb> teward, thanks, do you need anything from us?
<teward> coreycb: nope, unless you guys need something for nginx, in which case throw me a message
<teward> thanks to my schedule i can attend these meetings now ;)
<coreycb> teward, yay :)  alright sounds good.
<teward> coreycb: anything hyper important can hit me up via email or pings in -devel or -server
<teward> as rbasak knows well :)
<coreycb> teward, excellent thanks
<teward> you're welcome.
 * teward returns to coffee-fueled command line coding
<hallyn> coreycb: oh, i wasn't watching closely enough - i'll be at fosdem, presending lxd :)
<hallyn> ting
<coreycb> hallyn, awesome!
<coreycb> hallyn, good luck
<hallyn> thanks :)
<stgraber> hallyn: when's the lxd talk at fosdem?
<hallyn> stgraber: I think on sunday.  lemme see if i have an email
<hallyn> yeah sunday, don't know what time yet
<jsalisbury> #startmeeting
<jsalisbury> ##
<jsalisbury> ## This is the Ubuntu Kernel Team weekly status meeting.
<jsalisbury> ##
<meetingology> Meeting started Tue Jan 20 17:00:12 2015 UTC.  The chair is jsalisbury. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
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<jsalisbury> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/Meeting
<jsalisbury> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/ReleaseStatus/Vivid
<jsalisbury> # Meeting Etiquette
<jsalisbury> #
<jsalisbury> # NOTE: '..' indicates that you are finished with your input.
<jsalisbury> #       'o/' indicates you have something to add (please wait until you are recognized)
<jsalisbury> Roll Call for Ubuntu Kernel Weekly Status Meeting
<cking> \o
<ppisati> o/
<sforshee> o/
<kamal> o/
<henrix> o/
<bjf> o/
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] Release Metrics and Incoming Bugs (jsalisbury)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Release Metrics and Incoming Bugs (jsalisbury)
<jsalisbury> Release metrics and incoming bug data can be reviewed at the following link:
<jsalisbury> [LINK] http://people.canonical.com/~kernel/reports/kt-meeting.txt
<jsalisbury> ..
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] Status: Vivid Development Kernel (ogasawara)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Status: Vivid Development Kernel (ogasawara)
<ogasawara> dammit
<ogasawara> Our Vivid kernel remains based on the v3.18.2 upstream stable kernel,
<ogasawara> but we'll be rebasing to v3.18.3 shortly.  We'll also be rebsaing our
<ogasawara> unstable branch to v3.19-rc5 and get that uploaded to our team PPA soon.
<ogasawara> -----
<ogasawara> Important upcoming dates:
<ogasawara> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/VividVervet/ReleaseSchedule
<ogasawara> Thurs Jan 22 - Vivid Alpha 2 (~2 days! away)
<ogasawara> Thurs Feb 5 - 14.04.2 Point Release (~2 weeks away)
<ogasawara> Thurs Feb 26 - Beta 1 Freeze (~5 weeks away)
<ogasawara> ..
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] Status: CVE's
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Status: CVE's
<jsalisbury> The current CVE status can be reviewed at the following link:
<jsalisbury> http://people.canonical.com/~kernel/cve/pkg/ALL-linux.html
<jsalisbury> ..
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] Status: Stable, Security, and Bugfix Kernel Updates - Utopic/Trusty/Precise/Lucid (bjf/henrix/kamal/arges)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Status: Stable, Security, and Bugfix Kernel Updates - Utopic/Trusty/Precise/Lucid (bjf/henrix/kamal/arges)
<bjf> Status for the main kernels, until today:
<bjf>   *   Lucid - Verification & Testing
<bjf>   * Precise - Verification & Testing
<bjf>   *  Trusty - Verification & Testing
<bjf>   *  Utopic - Verification & Testing
<bjf>  
<bjf> Current opened tracking bugs details:
<bjf>   * http://kernel.ubuntu.com/sru/kernel-sru-workflow.html
<bjf> For SRUs, SRU report is a good source of information:
<bjf>   * http://kernel.ubuntu.com/sru/sru-report.html
<bjf>  
<bjf>  
<bjf> Schedule:
<bjf>  
<bjf> cycle: 09-Jan through 31-Jan
<bjf> ====================================================================
<bjf>          09-Jan   Last day for kernel commits for this cycle
<bjf> 11-Jan - 17-Jan   Kernel prep week.
<bjf> 18-Jan - 31-Jan   Bug verification; Regression testing; Release
<bjf> ..
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] Open Discussion or Questions? Raise your hand to be recognized (o/)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Open Discussion or Questions? Raise your hand to be recognized (o/)
<arges> thanks joe
<jsalisbury> Thanks everyone
<jsalisbury> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Tue Jan 20 17:03:07 2015 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2015/ubuntu-meeting.2015-01-20-17.00.moin.txt
<kamal> jsalisbury, thanks!  (3 minutes long, nice one!)
<cking> way too long ;-)
<jsalisbury> may have been the fastest yet
<kamal> yes, maybe... somebody should run those stats
#ubuntu-meeting 2015-01-22
 * slangasek waves
<slangasek> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Thu Jan 22 16:00:25 2015 UTC.  The chair is slangasek. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
<slangasek> [TOPIC] Lightning round
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Lightning round
<slangasek> $ echo $(shuf -e barry doko stgraber jodh bdmurray slangasek caribou infinity mvo sil2100 robru cyphermox)
<slangasek> infinity jodh bdmurray caribou sil2100 slangasek barry stgraber robru cyphermox mvo doko
<sil2100> o/
<infinity> SRSLY?
<infinity> Still typing.
<slangasek> infinity: TYPE FASTER
<infinity> CAN'T MAKE ME.
 * sil2100 whips infinity 
<infinity> YOU'RE NOT MY REAL DAD.
<slangasek> jodh: since someone is slacking, how about if you go first
<jodh> * snappy
<jodh>   - Worked on fixes prior to release on Tuesday.
<jodh>   - Testing.
<jodh> Ö
<slangasek> bdmurray:
<infinity> * SRUs of various IBM PPC utilities and libraries
<infinity> * Hunted and fixed a d-i bug with modprobe error messages
<infinity> * Helped hunt down an endian issue with unity-scopes-api
<infinity> * Started looking at glibc 2.21
<infinity> * A bit of kernel SRU wrangling
<slangasek> oh ok
<infinity> [...]
<slangasek> ;)
<infinity> Bah.
<infinity> Timing.
<bdmurray> updated the Error Tracker to work with django 1.6 and its dependencies
<bdmurray> updated daisy / errors to set ALLOWED_HOSTS for django
<bdmurray> worked on charm changes to be able to set allowed_hosts for django
<bdmurray> updated errors branch (r518) to set SESSION_SERIALIZER which fixes log in issue
<bdmurray> updated daisy-plucker charms to use thedac's save_cassandra method
<bdmurray> updated RT #77920 with information about errors update
<bdmurray> updated daisy to add counters for channel and device_name
<bdmurray> updated daisy to write the channel and device_name to the SystemImages CF
<bdmurray> updated errors code to display channels
<bdmurray> updated test-crashes to include SystemImageInfo for armhf crashes on Vivid
<bdmurray> updated submit-crash tool to change Date in crash reports so "duplicates" can be submitted
<bdmurray> short week due to holiday on Monday
<bdmurray> â done
<caribou> * Maas 1.5 & 1.7 tests
<caribou> * Apport upstream work :
<caribou> - Implement direct extract of large binaries for kernel crash dumps
<caribou> (done)
<sil2100> o/
<sil2100> - Landing team work, silos coordination, preparing landing e-mails
<sil2100> - Qt 5.4
<sil2100>   * Looking into and fixing the armhf stellarium build failure
<sil2100>   * Fixing the qtserialport-opensource-src and qtdoc-opensource-src FTFBS
<sil2100>   * Making sure the dependency chain builds
<sil2100>   * Re-building unity8
<sil2100>   * Enabling Qt 5.4 on local krillin, manual testing
<sil2100> - Ubuntu Engineering Live
<sil2100> - RTM status meetings
<sil2100> - Discussions and planning for the big nearing milestone
<sil2100> - Prepare a revert of thumbnailer in the case of an emergency
<sil2100> - Manually publishing a qtmir silo (branch rebase and merging required)
<sil2100> - Preparing temporary syntax in the CI Train spreadsheet for tarball/click sign-off
<sil2100> (done)
<slangasek>  * SRU reviews for 14.04.2
<slangasek>  * successful upstart-systemd porting sprint last week, thanks to all who participated
<slangasek>   * still have fixing nfs-common on my plate to follow through on this week
<slangasek>  * snappy IoT release this week, kudos to jodh and mvo: http://www.ubuntu.com/things
<slangasek>  * moving forward the backfilling process
<slangasek>  * trainguard coverage this coming weekend, for the upcoming phone release
<slangasek> (done)
<barry> short week due to usa holiday
<barry> system-image: LP: #1373467 landed in trunk.  investigated two bugs with udm: LP: #1411866 and LP: #1413265.  (i need to ping mandel again about these).  LP: #1412698 for snappy and 3.0.  started spec'ing out testing server (https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu-system-image/+spec/test-server)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1373467 in Ubuntu system image "Support config.d directory" [High,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1373467
<barry> debuntu: cloud-init py3 port (lp:~barry/cloud-init/py2-3)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1411866 in ubuntu-download-manager (Ubuntu) "Unconstrained download to a directory w/o permission crashes udm" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1411866
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1413265 in ubuntu-download-manager (Ubuntu) "Missing destination files" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1413265
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1412698 in Ubuntu system image "Upgrade path calculation incorrect" [High,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1412698
<barry> other: Pycon 2015 language summit planning
<barry> Â©
<stgraber> LXC/LXCFS/LXD/CGMANAGER (aka container stuff):
<stgraber>  - Sent one last systemd fix upstream (with the upstreaming now taken over by pitti).
<stgraber>  - Got systemd working fine in privileged and unprivileged containers without
<stgraber>    having to compromise on security.
<stgraber>  - Updated REST API spec for LXD.
<stgraber>  - Released lxcfs 0.1 and uploaded.
<stgraber>  - Released lxcfs 0.2 and uploaded.
<stgraber>  - Released lxcfs 0.3 and uploaded.
<stgraber>  - Released lxc 1.1 rc1 and uploaded.
<stgraber>  - Filed MIR for lxcfs (bug 1413405)
<ubottu> bug 1413405 in lxcfs (Ubuntu) "[MIR] lxcfs" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1413405
<stgraber>  - Filed MIR for lua-filesystem (bug 1413402)
<ubottu> bug 1413402 in lua-filesystem (Ubuntu) "[MIR] lua-filesystem" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1413402
<stgraber>  - Moved cgmanager from github.com/cgmanager to github.com/lxc alongside all
<stgraber>    the other projects.
<stgraber>  - SRUed the fix for bug 1075717 back to precise (to get it running under LXC 1.1)
<ubottu> bug 1075717 in mountall (Ubuntu Precise) "mounted-dev must not re-create consoles in a container" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1075717
<stgraber>  - Got our arm64 and ppc64el builders back online
<stgraber>  - Plenty of code reviews
<stgraber>  - Preparing for the LXD sprint and for the mid-cycle cloud sprint
<stgraber>  
<stgraber> Other:
<stgraber>  - Been trying to help get 1SS IPv6 connectivty back online.
<stgraber>  - Been asked to debug system-image a few times. No problem at all, just people
<stgraber>    not knowing how to read their screen.
<stgraber>  
<stgraber> Next couple of weeks:
<stgraber>  - In Brussels for the LXD hackfest from Tuesday to Friday
<stgraber>  - In Brussels for FOSDEM on Saturday
<stgraber>  - In Cape Town for the mid-cycle Cloud Sprint the whole week after that
<stgraber>  - Things get back to normal on the 9th of February
<stgraber>  
<stgraber> TODO:
<stgraber>  - Release LXC 1.1 (plan is for early next week)
<stgraber>  - Release LXD 0.1 (plan is for end of next week)
<stgraber>  
<stgraber> (DONE)
<infinity> stgraber: You got our builders back online?  Was I dreaming when I did that? :)
<stgraber> infinity: "my" builders :)
<infinity> stgraber: Oh, different "our". :)
<stgraber> our here refers to LXC :)
<slangasek> robru:
<slangasek> ok, we'll come back to robru
<slangasek> cyphermox:
<cyphermox>  * looked at ubiquity bug 1408495 until it turned up being an overlayfs bug (1410480)
<ubottu> bug 1410480 in linux (Ubuntu) "duplicate for #1408495 overlayfs v1: renaming existing file uses chardev whiteout (should be symlink)" [High,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1410480
<cyphermox>  * landed another fix for bluez's input stack in archive and in RTM
<cyphermox>  * fixed MTP upstart job to not needlessly respawn all the time
<cyphermox>  * investigated session upstart signal emission issues with rsalveti
<slangasek> overlayfs> yeah, thought so :P
<cyphermox>  * waiting for review for a bluetooth agent rework in u-s-s before it can land.
<cyphermox>  * worked on fixing autopkgtests for the new NM version in preparation for upload
<cyphermox> (done)
<slangasek> mvo:
<mvo> click:
<mvo> - prototype chroot mirror selection based on geoip
<mvo> - Work on #1358294 (data removal on uninstall of apps)
<mvo> - Work on preparing a new release (review/merge various branches)
<mvo> misc:
<mvo> - finish "numeric_owner" support for python tarfile (python #23193)
<mvo> - improve test/fix for python tarfile symlink crash (python #23228)
<mvo> - various (snappy) meeting
<mvo> snappy:
<mvo> - alpha-2!
<mvo> - work on snappy golang port
<mvo> - lots more (~45 gtimelog entries) but mostly details
<mvo> (done)
<slangasek> doko:
<doko> - first gcc-5 package uploaded to the ubuntu-toolchain-r/test PPA
<doko> - preparing openjdk security updates.
<doko> (done)
<doko> now chasing all the build failures ...
<slangasek> robru: here?
<slangasek> any questions / discussion points over status?
<slangasek> [TOPIC] AOB
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: AOB
<slangasek> or anything else, generally? :)
<infinity> I'm going to bed soon!
<infinity> Generally.
<cyphermox> any tasks for me, generally?
<slangasek> um thanks infinity for the update
<slangasek> anyone else?
<slangasek> cyphermox: I have a few things I can lob in your direction, let's talk later today :)
<cyphermox> zug zug
<infinity> Something need doing?
<mvo> cyphermox: and welcome, great to have you!
<cyphermox> mvo: thanks!
<slangasek> yes, welcome to cyphermox, who is forced to attend our meetings even when he hasn't started yet ;)
<infinity> "Forced"
<infinity> He seemed pretty keen to show up.
<mvo> hehehe
<slangasek> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Thu Jan 22 16:20:23 2015 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2015/ubuntu-meeting.2015-01-22-16.00.moin.txt
<slangasek> thanks, everyone!
<barry> thanks!
<mvo> thanks
<caribou> thanks slangasek
<jodh> thanks!
#ubuntu-meeting 2016-01-25
<Kilos> o/
<tyhicks> hello
<mdeslaur> yellow
<tyhicks> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Mon Jan 25 16:35:25 2016 UTC.  The chair is tyhicks. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
<tyhicks> The meeting agenda can be found at:
<tyhicks> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/Meeting
<tyhicks> [TOPIC] Announcements
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Announcements
<tyhicks> Felix Geyer (debfx) provided debdiffs for trusty, wily for prosody (LP: #1532943)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1532943 in prosody (Ubuntu) "CVE-2016-1231 and CVE-2016-1232" [Medium,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1532943
<tyhicks> Andreas Cadhalpun (andreas-cadhalpun) provided debdiffs for vivid and wily for ffmpeg (LP: #1533367)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1533367 in ffmpeg (Ubuntu Xenial) "ffmpeg allows Server-Side Request Forgery attack" [Medium,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1533367
<tyhicks> Thank you for your assistance in keeping Ubuntu users secure! :)
<tyhicks> [TOPIC] Weekly stand-up report
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Weekly stand-up report
<tyhicks> jdstrand: you're up
<tyhicks> mdeslaur: do you want to go ahead and we'll circle back to him?
<mdeslaur> sure
<mdeslaur> I'm in the happy place this week
 * mdeslaur does the happy place dance
<mdeslaur> I'm working on mysql updates at the moment
<tyhicks> lucky you :)
<sarnold> choreographed and everything, impressive :)
<mdeslaur> and I have a couple of embargoed things to look at
<mdeslaur> and after that, I have to figure out the zillion autopkgtest regressions from my friday merges
<tyhicks> bleh
<mdeslaur> so that'll keep me busy for a couple of weeks
<mdeslaur> that's it from me, sbeattie
<tyhicks> I don't think he's in yet
<tyhicks> I'll go ahead
<tyhicks> I'm on bug triage this week
<tyhicks> outside of those duties, I'm going to force myself to ignore everything new except for helping out jjohansen with AppArmor stacking
<tyhicks> that'll include restarting the stacking interface discussion
<tyhicks> and possibly the namespace creation interfaces
<tyhicks> that's all I'm going to put on my plate this week
<tyhicks> jjohansen: are you around yet?
 * jjohansen waits for the emergency to drop
<jjohansen> yep
<jjohansen> I am working on apparmor stacking this week, lots of debugging and messing with namespacing issues
<jjohansen> that is all I am planning on
<jjohansen> sarnold: you here?
<jjohansen> doesn't seem so, tyhicks back to you
<tyhicks> he's here
<sarnold> I'm on cve triage this week
<sarnold> I've got a few pennies to throw into the apparmor stacking discussion, maybe a monkey wrench or two too (MONKEYS!)
<sarnold> whatevers' left will go towards MIRs, I ought to finish up DPDK early this week
<sarnold> that's it for me, chrisccoulson?
<tyhicks> good to hear
<tyhicks> (re DPDK)
<tyhicks> go ahead, chrisccoulson
<jdstrand> sorry, I missed the ping
<jdstrand> I'll go after chrisccoulson
<chrisccoulson> I've got a Firefox release this week. I'm also currently testing Chromium and need to get Oxide 1.12 out
<chrisccoulson> Other than that, I'll be working on some reviews and taking a look at bug 1459830
<ubottu> bug 1459830 in Oxide "Support drag and drop" [Medium,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1459830
<chrisccoulson> I think that's me done
<jdstrand> I'll go now
<jdstrand> since 15.04 is eol soon, I did a bit of work to track ppa overlay packages and updated processes for that
<jdstrand> since touch will remain on 15.04 for a while and core until 16.04 is released
<jdstrand> it is coming along well. I need to deal with any fallout from that, and also make sure that those overlay ppas are up to date. I think they are, but will verify
<jdstrand> I have a couple of embargoed issues I am working on
<jdstrand> and then will attend to snappy work items-- notably, squashfs in the review tools
<jdstrand> that's it from me
<tyhicks> ok
<tyhicks> I'll catch up with sbeattie later
<tyhicks> [TOPIC] Highlighted packages
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Highlighted packages
<tyhicks> The Ubuntu Security team will highlight some community-supported packages that might be good candidates for updating and or triaging. If you would like to help Ubuntu and not sure where to start, this is a great way to do so.
<tyhicks> See https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/UpdateProcedures for details and if you have any questions, feel free to ask in #ubuntu-security. To find out other ways of helping out, please see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/GettingInvolved.
<tyhicks> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/tntnet.html
<tyhicks> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/grml-debootstrap.html
<tyhicks> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/autojump.html
<tyhicks> [TOPIC] Miscellaneous and Questions
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Miscellaneous and Questions
<tyhicks> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/localepurge.html
<tyhicks> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/bozohttpd.html
<tyhicks> Does anyone have any other questions or items to discuss?
<doko> PIC!
<doko> is the test rebuild now reviewed, and when will it be enabled?
<doko> or is it delayed until after the LTS?
<tyhicks> doko: unfortunately, sbeattie isn't here
<tyhicks> doko: he's been chipping away at it but I don't know exactly where he's at
<tyhicks> doko: hopefully it isn't delayed until after the LTS
<tyhicks> doko: I'll follow up with you in an hour or so
<doko> sure, but then we should start using it, announcing it to the community. at least we'll have additional ftfbs
<tyhicks> agreed
<tyhicks> jdstrand, mdeslaur, sbeattie, jjohansen, sarnold, ChrisCoulson: Thanks!
<tyhicks> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Mon Jan 25 16:59:25 2016 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2016/ubuntu-meeting.2016-01-25-16.35.moin.txt
<jjohansen> thanks tyhicks
<mdeslaur> thanks tyhicks
<sarnold> thanks tyhicks
#ubuntu-meeting 2016-01-26
<Kilos> o/
<cpaelzer> Hi, lets start the server Meeting
<kickinz1> o/
<cpaelzer> highlighting some people to get started beisner thedac gaughen coreycb arosales matsubara hallyn rbasak cpaelzer jgrimm kickinz1 smoser jamespage gnuoy zul
<cpaelzer> Hi everybody o/
<arges> hello
<smb> o/
<arosales> o
<arosales> o/
<smoser> o/
<cpaelzer> #startmeeting ubuntu-server-team
<meetingology> Meeting started Tue Jan 26 16:02:27 2016 UTC.  The chair is cpaelzer. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic:
<cpaelzer> #topic Review ACTION points from previous meeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Review ACTION points from previous meeting
<cpaelzer> The only action item (IIRC) we had last week was for matsubara, so I'd try to cover that in the QA Team section
<cpaelzer> anything else before we go step by step, so that I can keep track and we won't miss it later
<cpaelzer> ok, that means we cover that later - I pined matsubara to join us already
<cpaelzer> #topic Xenial Development
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Xenial Development
<cpaelzer> #link https://wiki.ubuntu.com/XenialXerus/ReleaseSchedule
<cpaelzer> the release is coming, as always :-)
<cpaelzer> we still track major items for the Team in
<cpaelzer> #link https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/servercloud-x-server-core
<cpaelzer> rbasak: where there any changes to that?
<cpaelzer> rbasak seems to be busy, might join in a few
<cpaelzer> anyone else having updates on the assigned bugs there?
<cpaelzer> an overview of bugs related to the server Team can always be found at
<cpaelzer> #link http://reqorts.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/rls-mgr/rls-x-tracking-bug-tasks.html#ubuntu-server
<cpaelzer> ok, today seem to be a calm day in IRC, lets get on
<cpaelzer> #subtopic Release Bugs
<cpaelzer> #topic Server & Cloud Bugs (caribou)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Server & Cloud Bugs (caribou)
<cpaelzer> caribou: anything for us to share today?
<caribou> cpaelzer: nothing on my side this week aside from the fact that I'm about to upload the nut merge
<caribou> cpaelzer: should be done tomorrow
<cpaelzer> caribou: every merge upload is a good step, thank you a lot!
<cpaelzer> #topic Weekly Updates & Questions for the Kernel Team (smb, sforshee, arges)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Weekly Updates & Questions for the Kernel Team (smb, sforshee, arges)
<smb> Nothing reportable from kernel-space... beside maybe that hopefully, there potentially might be a move to 4.4 somewhen this week...
<cpaelzer> smb: great, anything big to expect from 4.4 that we would have to take a look at ?
<smb> nothing that comes to my mind right now
<cpaelzer> #topic Weekly Updates & Questions for the QA Team (matsubara)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Weekly Updates & Questions for the QA Team (matsubara)
<cpaelzer> matsubara still isn't here, last week he had ISP issues for a while
<cpaelzer> I'll try to call him after the meeting, anything else for QA that we should discuss/forward?
<cpaelzer> that is a silent no
<cpaelzer> #topic Upcoming Call For Papers
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Upcoming Call For Papers
<cpaelzer> there was a call for papers regarding "OpenStack Summit Austin"
<cpaelzer> anyone participating in that or any other CFPs that are important?
<cpaelzer> ok
<cpaelzer> #topic Ubuntu Server Team Events
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Ubuntu Server Team Events
<cpaelzer> there is an upcoming Team sprint colocated with the MAAS Team, any other events that we should participate?
<cpaelzer> ok, then anything else?
<cpaelzer> #topic Open Discussion
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Open Discussion
<rbasak> Sorry, I joined late.
<rbasak> I don't really have anything to add, I don't think. Blueprint work continues, please follow your work items.
<cpaelzer> ok, thats good - everyone seems heads down to get their stuff done
<cpaelzer> since matsubara didn't have a chance today, we will keep last weeks action item
<cpaelzer>  #action: Matsubara to research and answer whether we want to resume manual testing for i386
<cpaelzer> #action: Matsubara to research and answer whether we want to resume manual testing for i386
<meetingology> ACTION: : Matsubara to research and answer whether we want to resume manual testing for i386
<cpaelzer> #topic Announce next meeting date, time and chair
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Announce next meeting date, time and chair
<cpaelzer> next chair in the list would be thedac
<cpaelzer> thedac: can you lead the meeting next week, same time as usual?
<cpaelzer> ok, no need to keep you waiting
<cpaelzer> I'll discuss with thedac (next in list) and beisner (head of the list, but on travel today) who will chair next week
<cpaelzer> thanks rbasak, smb and caribou to making this not a 100% monologue :-)
<cpaelzer> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Tue Jan 26 16:23:17 2016 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2016/ubuntu-meeting.2016-01-26-16.02.moin.txt
<caribou> cpaelzer: np, thanks to you
<rbasak> Thank you cpaelzer!
<smb> cpaelzer, youre welcome :)
<kickinz1> thanks cpaelzer
<cpaelzer> zul: I saw last weeks log missing, I'll create it together with this weeks log
<cpaelzer> I still had the link in my IRC clients log
#ubuntu-meeting 2016-01-27
<Kilos> o/
#ubuntu-meeting 2016-01-28
<thedac> cpaelzer: rbasak: beisner and I are sprinting next week. Can you bump us out a week?
<cpaelzer> thedac: we are sprinting as well, let me ask the next one in the list then :-)
<cpaelzer> thedac: are more in the list sprinting with you, so I can skip considering them?
<thedac> cpaelzer: coreycb arosales jamespage gnouy and zul are all srinting as well :)
<cpaelzer> thedac: thx!
<zul> srinting?
<cpaelzer> zul: there http://www.roblox.com/games/86180135/Srintings-Place :-P
 * slangasek waves
<pitti> o/
<barry> \o
<chiluk>  o/
<tdaitx> o/
<xnox> \o
<slangasek> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Thu Jan 28 16:03:05 2016 UTC.  The chair is slangasek. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
<slangasek> [TOPIC] Lightning round
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Lightning round
<slangasek> $ echo $(shuf -e barry doko bdmurray slangasek caribou infinity sil2100 robru cyphermox pitti tdaitx xnox chiluk)
<slangasek> caribou tdaitx cyphermox sil2100 pitti robru bdmurray slangasek chiluk doko xnox barry infinity
<slangasek> caribou: hi :)
<slangasek> tdaitx: ok, you're up :)
<tdaitx> # 2016-01-28
<tdaitx> * Updated OpenJDK 6 from 6u37-1.13.9 to 6u38-1.13.10 (based on IcedTea 1.13.10)
<tdaitx> * Provided OpenJDK 6u38 backports to the security team for Wily, Vivid, Trusty, and Precise
<tdaitx> * Porting Jean-Baptiste TCK scripts from JCK 6 to JCK 7
<tdaitx> * Travelling today to Brussels for FOSDEM
<tdaitx> (done)
<cyphermox>  - libaudit support: shadow and openssh (bug LP: #1478087)
<cyphermox>  - multipath-tools SRUs for 14.04.4:
<cyphermox>    - bug LP: #1432062 - spaces in device names
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1478087 in lightdm (Ubuntu Vivid) "Add libaudit support" [Medium,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1478087
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1432062 in multipath-tools (Ubuntu) "multipath-tools-boot: support booting without user_friendly_names on devices with spaces in identifiers" [Medium,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1432062
<cyphermox>    - bug LP: #1526984 - readonly bindings for multipathd -B
<cyphermox>    - bug LP: #1503286 - let udev settle before mounting.
<cyphermox>    - bug LP: #1496210 - defualt values for IBM 2810XIV storage
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1526984 in multipath-tools (Ubuntu) "ISST-LTE: root mpath device unavailable after installation" [Critical,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1526984
<doko> tdaitx, look up the beer location for tomorrow night
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1503286 in multipath-tools (Ubuntu Trusty) "ISST-LTE: Boot of Ubuntu15.10 lpar fails: "mounting /dev/sdn2 on /root failed: Device or resource busy" [multipath]" [Critical,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1503286
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1496210 in multipath-tools (Ubuntu Trusty) "multipath-tools lacks the default settings for IBM 2810XIV storage system" [Medium,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1496210
<cyphermox>  - debugging parted device naming policy and ioctl errors (bug LP: #1536008)
<cyphermox>  - reviewing MIRs: fwupd (bug LP: #1536871) - appstream (bug LP: #1538293)
<cyphermox> (done)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1536008 in parted (Ubuntu) "ISST-LTE: parted command shows "device-mapper: table ioctl on failed: No such device or address" error" [Undecided,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1536008
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1536871 in fwupd (Ubuntu) "[MIR] fwupd" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1536871
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1538293 in appstream (Ubuntu) "[MIR] appstream" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1538293
<pitti> oh, no sil2100
<pitti> autopkgtest:
<slangasek> indeed
<pitti>  - Enable SSL on debci, fix some remaining issues in autopkgtest-retrier, and roll out self-service retry buttons
<pitti>  - Refine web-based retry to check uploader permissions
<pitti>  - Fix wrong kernel versions with apt pinning
<pitti>  - britney: Add option for working with a lot of shared silo instances relative to Ubuntu (#1537868)
<pitti>  - britney: Fix crash with NBS binaries in target release (reported by robru)
<pitti>  - (ongoing) more experiments with running armhf tests through remote LXD in Scalingstack; still blocked by "locks up after some time" bug
<pitti>  - (ongoing) Investigate missing proxy vars on ppc64el/trusty (#1539126)
<pitti> distro:
<pitti>  - init-system-helpers: add autopkgtest
<pitti>  - init-system-helpers: review our remaining delta, reduce most of it (part of that: #1539016); we can sync after xenial
<pitti>  - merges: gnupg, ifupdown
<pitti>  - network-manager: Fix/test/apply Bryan's patch for fixing NFS mounts (#1515446)
<pitti>  - numexpr: Fix autopkgtest regression
<pitti>  - udev: Fix persistent net names with d-i for trusty (#1537136)
<barry> pitti: \o/
<pitti>  - Clean up usage of /var/log/udev (#1537211)
<pitti>  - Review initramfs-tools, init-system-helpers, and sysvinit merges from Andy; systemd tests spotted a regression in update-rc.d, fix that
<pitti>  - Discuss apport implementation for crashes in container with stgraber; we have a solution now, tests needs to be written and then we can enable this again
<pitti> END
<robru> lp:cupstream2distro
<robru> * fix traceback when abandoning silos
<robru> * fix erroneously setting published_versions excessively
<robru> * fix noisy transient errors in status setting
<robru> * set branches as merged after pushing to trunk
<robru> lp:bileto
<robru> * misc code cleanup
<robru> * disable some unused britney features
<robru> * fix when lander_signoff is automatically cleared
<robru> * add documenation/network topology chart
<robru> misc
<robru> * audit bugs & work on enabling local deployments for sprint next week
<robru> (finito)
<cyphermox> pitti: persistent net names, had we not fixed that already with the previous trusty dot release?
<tdaitx> doko: hehe, only for tomorrow? ;-)
<bdmurray> tested connection to new DSE servers (good)
<bdmurray> discussion with stub re tables from old cassandra dbs to import
<bdmurray> release upgrade testing from Trusty to Vivid
<bdmurray> searched for / consolidated duplicates of T to V upgrade failures (LP: #1534374)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1534374 in ubuntu-release-upgrader (Ubuntu) "unable to upgrade to 15.04 due to libstdc++6 SRU" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1534374
<pitti> cyphermox: apparently not
<bdmurray> investigation into u-r-u saying packages are unauthenticated
<bdmurray> release upgrade testing from Trusty to Wily
<bdmurray> reported LP: #1537900 re dist-upgrade failure to wily
<bdmurray> uploaded sysvinit fix for LP: #1507151 to wily-proposed
<bdmurray> updated ubuntu-release-upgrader to support Trusty to Wily upgrades
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1507151 in sysvinit (Ubuntu Wily) "duplicate for #1537900 sysv-rc.postinst calls insserv by name, but insserv package does not provide the command in a bin directory" [High,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1507151
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1507151 in sysvinit (Ubuntu Wily) "sysv-rc.postinst calls insserv by name, but insserv package does not provide the command in a bin directory" [High,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1507151
<bdmurray> W SRU verification of LP: #1537916, #1507151
<bdmurray> worked on britney sending email notifications
<bdmurray> patch piloting
<bdmurray> SRU queue processing
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1537916 in ubuntu-release-upgrader (Ubuntu Wily) "wily release upgrader needs to support upgrades from Trusty" [High,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1537916
<bdmurray> installed / setup Ubuntu on new laptop
<cyphermox> pitti: (we removed biosdevname in 14.04.3 for much of the same thing)
<bdmurray> â done
<xnox> tdaitx, well it's a special fosdem beer location, with extra special beers and tokens.
<slangasek> pitti: speaking of armhf and scalingstack, did you happen to see the post from hrw a few weeks ago about "how I got 32-bit arm VMs running right"?
<pitti> cyphermox: err, no, we didn't -- biosdevname is still used in d-i in latest netboot
<pitti> slangasek: uh, no, I didn't.. showmeshowmeshowme!
<cyphermox> maybe I'm mistaking it for some other release then
<pitti> slangasek: I was talking to wgrant about that and made some experiments, but there were still some hiccups
<slangasek> pitti: https://marcin.juszkiewicz.com.pl/2016/01/17/running-32-bit-arm-virtual-machine-on-aarch64-hardware/
<doko> bdmurray, any proposed action on 1534374?
<slangasek> this is on Fedora, but hopefully translates
<pitti> slangasek: oh, that way around -- I tohught you meant "boot armhf images in scalingstack"
<xnox> bug 1534374?
<xnox> bug 1534374
<ubottu> bug 1534374 in ubuntu-release-upgrader (Ubuntu) "unable to upgrade to 15.04 due to libstdc++6 SRU" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1534374
<bdmurray> doko: wait for Vivid to End of Life
<slangasek> pitti: well, but it should be bootable in scaling stack if we get the pieces figured out :)
<pitti> bdmurray: what is "DSE", OOI?
<doko> bdmurray, I like that
<bdmurray> pitti: data stack enterprise
<pitti> will vivid actually EOL? I thought touch releases are still based on vivid
<bdmurray> pitti: cassandra w/ support and bells and whistles
<sil2100> Oh crap
<slangasek>  * uplift edk2 to new upstream snapshot per request of hyperscale team
<slangasek>  * ppc64el triage for 14.04.4
<slangasek>  * merges: at a personal 5-year low for outstanding TIL merges ;)
<slangasek>  * nudging packages for proposed-migration
<slangasek>  * MP review for system-image "device alias" support
<slangasek>  * forward progress on P7 machine deprecation
<slangasek>  * discussion about Archive Reorg changes for 16.04 (headline: build-depends won't have to go through MIR, only binary depends)
 * sil2100 is obviously very late but still needs time to prepare his report
<xnox> sil2100, are you not looking forward to vivid builders getting turned off? =)
<slangasek> (done)
<chiluk> LP #1535349.  Patch created waiting on sponsorship.  Discovered an additional issue with initramfs-tools that will need to be resolved before this is fully fixed.
<chiluk> LP #1484696.  Fix Released issue closed.
<chiluk> Xenial issues with pulseaudio rejecting connections in xenial.  Daemon is still up, but not responding.  Case to be found or reported.
<chiluk> Xenial issues where chrome does not respond to dbus url open requests.
<chiluk>  --done--
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1535349 in coreutils (Ubuntu Trusty) "`df /dev/sda1` no longer reports information for /dev/sda1" [Medium,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1535349
<pitti> slangasek: you can actually create an AMI with the kernel/initrd and boot the armhf cloud image -- but that fails on some libvirt issue (which wgrant already dealt with by backporting the fix) and some scalingstack config issue
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1484696 in MAAS 1.10 "Unable to connect to: ws://<maas IP>:/MAAS/ws" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1484696
<tdaitx> sil2100: aim to go right after infinity, he is last on the list ;-)
<doko> - binutils 2.26 release
<doko> - gcc-5 ibm backports
<doko> - icedtea-web update, build for openjdk-8
<doko> - fix firefox build on arm64
<doko> - getting gcc cross packages mostly installable
<doko> - ruby2.2 update
<doko> - openjdk-6, openjdk-9 uploads
<sil2100> tdaitx: thanks
<doko> - work on python3.4 removal
<doko> - work on ruby2.1 removal
<doko> - some work on multiarchifying packages
<barry> slangasek: oh?  where's that discussion happening?
<doko> (done)
<pitti> slangasek: uh, no "main" closure on b-deps any more? that sounds a bit strange
<xnox> barry, slowly being worked on ;-)
<slangasek> barry: it's been internal discussion up to this point, I'll post on ubuntu-devel shortly about it
<barry> just curious if there's a public thread on it?
<barry> oh cool
<xnox> pitti, it's not as weird as it sounds. as vastly smaller in scope.
<slangasek> it's in the same general vein as Archive Reorg has always been - "security support over the binary dep closure, not over the source dep closure"
<pitti> xnox: "Go static linking"
<xnox> pitti, and C++ templates
<slangasek> we just found a shortcut to the implementation
<xnox> pitti, are two things to watch out for, yes.
<slangasek> pitti, xnox: Built-Using
<xnox> slangasek, oh, ok.
<slangasek> i.e. we should still be closed over Built-Using, just not over Build-Depends
<pitti> so if we render main packages unbuildable because of some universe crap nobody cares about, we make our lifes even harder
<slangasek> xnox: your turn
<slangasek> pitti: happy to make this a discussion topic later in the meeting :)
<robru> Does anybody know if it's possible to start an lxc from inside a schroot?
<xnox> robru, we are in a meeting =)
<xnox> working on fixing cloud images (borked link_in_boot)
<xnox> working on publishing updated installer guide
<xnox> fixed .ins and el torito boot files
<xnox> packaged libica
<xnox> upgraded btrfs tools, to fix bugs on ppc64el
<xnox> attended openmainframe project eu meetup in luton
<xnox> off to fosdem tomorrow
<xnox> etc.
<xnox> done
<slangasek> robru: a chroot by itself has no namespacing; so yes it should be possible as long as you have all the right mounts in the chroot
<barry> sla claws-mail: merged w/debian, uploaded 3.13.1-1.1ubuntu1 and 3.13.1-1.1ubuntu2 (the latter to fix upstream bug #3600)
<ubottu> bug 3600 in Launchpad itself "Summary field processing is handling carriage returns wrongly." [Medium,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/3600
<barry> dirtbike/pip stack: everything working in my local staging environment.  now i need to 1) release dirtbike & upload to debian; 2) upload python-progress (debian bug #812908); 3) update debian python policy for wheels; 4) update pip to 8 & upload.  it was lots of work, but it's all paying off now and will make ongoing maintenance *much* easier, and will finally get us a much more modern pip.  next up: virtualenv
<ubottu> Debian bug 812908 in wnpp "ITP: python-progress -- easy progress reporting for Python" [Wishlist,Open] http://bugs.debian.org/812908
<barry> worked on the foundations-x-python3-only blueprint.  samba-libs is still the big blocker.  reached out to the fedora porter who has made some progress, but still a lot of work to do.  this one has me the most worried.
<barry> i won't wait for the debian gnome maintainers much longer on libpeas.  if nothing happens in debian by the end of next week's sprint, i'll move forward in ubuntu.
<barry> --done--
<pitti> sil2100: no infinity, go
<sil2100> o/
<doko> barry, is there an open issue?
<sil2100> - Landing team work, silo coordination, preparing landing e-mails
<sil2100> - RTM Status meetings
<sil2100> - system-image:
<sil2100>   * Coordinating the removal of manta images from official s-i
<sil2100>   * Poke community s-i hosts to pick up manta once we remove those
<sil2100>   * Tests tests
<barry> doko: on libpeas?
<sil2100> - Promoting devel images
<sil2100> - OTA-9:
<doko> yes
<sil2100>   * Preparing release notes
<sil2100>   * Releasing the images (with some complications due to management miscommunication)
<sil2100>   * Investigating various reports
<sil2100> - Future OTA schedule preparation, announcements
<sil2100> - Multiple secret work involving device enablement in s-i
<barry> doko: yes, let me find it
<sil2100> - Preparing a new merge for ppp, symbols changes needed
<sil2100> - Help in preparing silo 12 landing, packaging reviews etc. (a big PD-related silo)
<sil2100> - OTA-9.5
<sil2100>   * Planning and scheduling, various long discussions
<sil2100>   * Add new frameworks to the seeds and store
<sil2100> - Landing-team-tools - write a helper script for getting s-i image information
<sil2100> (done)
<slangasek> sil2100: congrats on OTA-9
<robru> slangasek: what are the right mounts? It has /proc and /dev/pts
<sil2100> Thanks, some people do seem to have issues with seeing the update though, will have to look into that a bit
<sil2100> Since the phasing ended like 6-8 hours ago
<pitti> slangasek: so yes, that's using direct kernel boot much like I attempted on scalingstack; this should work in principle indeed
<sil2100> But yeah, in overall it's good :)
<barry> doko: LP: #1440504 which has a link to the debian bug
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1440504 in libpeas (Ubuntu) "libpeas-1.0-0 depends on both libpython2.7 and libpython3.4" [Medium,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1440504
<barry> doko: debian bug has patches
<slangasek> robru: I don't know all of them, but there'll be at least /sys and I think there's at least one other mount needed for the cgroups
<slangasek> (but I have no cgroups fs mount on my system currently, hmmm)
<slangasek> maybe that's old info
<caribou> o/
<caribou> sorry I'm late
<slangasek> pitti: ah, direct kernel boot; that's obviously less than perfect, but I guess it's the only option we have there
<pitti> slangasek: tmpfs on /sys/fs/cgroup ?
<pitti> slangasek: it's what the blog uses too
<slangasek> pitti: oh haha I was looking at mounts inside a chroot, so there
<slangasek> caribou: hi! anything you'd like to report?
<caribou> yep
<caribou>  LP1522346 - nut merge
<caribou> LP1536904 - kdump fails on 16.04
<caribou> LP1537714 - smaller initrd for older kernels
<caribou>  Sponsorship : LP1089013 - clvm
<caribou> Sponsorship : LP1248054 - dlm
<caribou> and rework of my  home network
<caribou> (done)Ã 
<slangasek> caribou: thanks for nut, I'm glad to no longer be TIL on it ;-)
<slangasek> now that just leaves me shadow <cough>
<caribou> oh, & looks like there will be another rsyslog merge needed
<slangasek> I can also give a status update for infinity
<robru> slangasek: so is it enough to just bindmount from the host into the chroot? Where's the documentation on everything lxc needs?
<slangasek>  * working on glibc 2.22 merge and reconciling locales packages with Debian
<cyphermox> slangasek: I mean to merge shadow
<slangasek> robru: I don't know; possibly somewhere near the lxc package
<slangasek> cyphermox: oh? but I'm TIL :)
<xnox> robru, try stgraber ?
<xnox> =)
<cyphermox> slangasek: ah, I can leave it to you then ;)
<slangasek> cyphermox: maybe you want to merge console-setup instead, you already have your name down on that one on merges.u.c :)
<slangasek> ok, any questions on status?
<cyphermox> slangasek: yeah, that one too
<slangasek> [TOPIC] Archive Reorg
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Archive Reorg
<slangasek> since there were questions about this, let's discuss
<slangasek> pitti: you had concerns about uncared-for packages in universe
<doko> cyphermox, ohh, I started shadow, but lost track. while the debian maintainer took most patches, they are disabled, and need an update
<pitti> slangasek: well, yes; mostly about rendering more main packages FTBFS and thus making it harder to remove obsolete universe packages
<cyphermox> doko: ok.. I mentioned it because you asked me about a shadow upload to trusty :P
<pitti> but also with all the static linking madness of go, where build deps are really binary deps
<slangasek> pitti: so the reality today is that we spend a lot of effort going through the MIR process for these same packages, pulling them into main
<slangasek> and then we still don't do anything with them because they're not actually interesting, they're only needed as build-dependencies
<slangasek> I expect this to be a net reduction in work effort, because a) less MIR paperwork for things we don't care about and don't want to support, b) less packaging delta from Debian to enforce a build-time main/universe split, c) fewer packages in main overall meaning less security team work
<xnox> pitti, my thoughts were that packages that main build-depends on, will become known as "supported-build-depends" hosted mostly in universe. And then we can implement controls and/or additional policy on that. For example, uploads only by core-dev, rather than motu.
<slangasek> this btw was always part of the ArchiveReorg plan, which we first discussed back in Barcelona :)  It only foundered on some of the implementation details
<xnox> pitti, (where supported-build-depends is a seed)
<pitti> slangasek: oh yeah, that's the other thing -- we have some packages where we drop build deps to drop functionality which is only available with universe b-deps, for building plugins for example
<slangasek> xnox: fwiw I don't see any reason to restrict uploads to core-dev
<xnox> slangasek, ok.
<pitti> slangasek: you'd have the same delta if they end up being binary deps (new library), or an invisible "static linking" case when they don't become build-deps
<slangasek> pitti: static linking of go MUST be tracked already via the Built-Using field, which I mentioned above
<xnox> pitti, yeah. and e.g. especially when those plugins, will be published into universe anyway. We already do build a lot packages in main, that have some binary packages in universe.
<doko> cyphermox, feel free to take over
<slangasek> hmmm I wonder if this would actually cause python2 to drop out of main in 16.04 ;)
<cyphermox> doko: *shrugs* I will finish console-setup first, I already have it in a PPA ready to finish testing
<xnox> slangasek, i wonder if "built-using" should be included in main closure then (whereas "build-depends" will not)
<barry> slangasek: wouldn't that be wonderful? :)
<xnox> slangasek, ubuntu-desktop depends on python2 at the moment.
<slangasek> pitti: the forcing function for 16.04 is nodejs.  This is something the security team will *not* be providing support for, yet it's pulled in as a build-dependency for documentation
<slangasek> xnox: sorry, that's exactly what I meant
<xnox> slangasek, ack.
<barry> xnox: see my previous comments about samba-libs :(
<slangasek> xnox: Built-Using should be included in main (and therefore component-mismatches should report on it), Build-Depends should not
<slangasek> pitti: but there are other examples besides nodejs; maven has been one this cycle as well, with its many tentacles of java
<slangasek> yes, if the build-dependency translates to a binary dependency, we still have to deal with it
 * barry will be happy to drop some debian deltas because of this
<slangasek> but the reason for ArchiveReorg is the recognition that there are many packages that are in main only because they're build-dependencies and *not* runtime dependencies (or statically-linked)
<pitti> well, I can't say I have a good feeling about this, but maybe that's just me then
<slangasek> pitti: it'll reduce the workload, trust me ;-)
<pitti> slangasek: oh, no doubts about that, I'm more afraid of piling up hidden traps
<slangasek> hmm, well
<slangasek> the kind of trap you've mentioned - bitrotting package in universe - is still something we'd be responsible for sorting out, in either case
<barry> slangasek, xnox it would be nice to have some high level archive spelunking tooling around this.  e.g. given a package, tell me the status of all its b-d and depends.  or going the other way, given a package, tell me the status of its reverses
<xnox> barry, that would be check-mir =)
<slangasek> i.e. if it's a build-dep, we're responsible for sorting out the bitrot; it doesn't matter if that package is in main like today, or if we move it to unvierse
<xnox> barry, we are still keeping main/universe components
<slangasek> xnox: well, we need to stand up a modified component-mismatches and germinate
<pitti> slangasek: right, but so far we've just dropped the build-dep of "meh, don't like that" stuff beforehand, instead of letting them creep in everywhere
<barry> xnox: something like that, probably with some enhancements
 * xnox really should share my draft document with everybody.
<pitti> so this will undoubtedly work well initially; my fear is that it will make it harder down the road, as we effectively end up maintaining half of universe
<pitti> maven, haskell, what not
<xnox> but we already do
<slangasek> I disagree that this means we will be maintaining maven or haskell
<xnox> e.g. haskell transitions, java transtions it's still we do anyway.
<slangasek> except to a very basic level
<xnox> a healthy main, requires a somewhat healthy universe.
 * xnox was writting down my thoughts on the subject in a google doc -> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1dJBtLLCppH2yt664S8G2jB_tK-iWi_D7wqaN6S4ddwI/edit#
<slangasek> xnox: have you checked past archive reorg documentation in the wiki already?
<xnox> slangasek, i've read and re-read most of it. And it is confusing.
<slangasek> \o/
<xnox> slangasek, cause parts were implemented, and other parts are not (e.g. we did permissions, but we didn't abolish components)
<xnox> slangasek, and this new "supported-build-depends" subject, i'd rather not call "archive-reorg", as the scope is smaller.
<xnox> e.g. we are keeping M.I.R. and we are keeping a show-case pinacle "main" component.
<slangasek> we were always going to be keeping an MIR process
<xnox> and kicking things out of it, that are not pinacle show-case stuff =)
<slangasek> it was just a question of whether the includer was still called "main"
<xnox> slangasek, well yes. But the whole apt preferences shananigans were nuts.
<slangasek> heh
<xnox> my plan was to generate sample new seed output, sample new components missmatches, polish the document
<xnox> and like seek further feedback
<xnox> but i guess the cat is out of the bag now.
<slangasek> don't worry, you'll get all the feedback you need ;)
<slangasek> [TOPIC] AOB
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: AOB
<slangasek> anything else today?
<slangasek> I have a small proposal to replace the Linux kernel in main with Hurd
<barry> *hurt
<cyphermox> slangasek: pff
<cyphermox> I'd rather you pick Darwin.
<slangasek> heh
<sil2100> ;)
<caribou> nah, keep it & rewrite in Go
<xnox> slangasek, +1 on Darwin
<barry> that'll dovetail nicely with my plans to rewrite go in guile
<tdaitx> stuff I didn't have time to write: I will be off tomorrow and from Wed to Frid next week (swap day + vacation), and then the week after on Monday and Tuesday (holidays); moved from hexchat to quassel so now I can have it connected most of the time (just in time for some time off)
<xnox> barry, using an llvm compiler right?
<slangasek> Mir 3.0, now with DisplayPostscript support
<barry> xnox: of course!
<xnox> slangasek, \o/
<xnox> slangasek, requires a type-c dongle?
<cyphermox> xnox: DisplayPostscript is over CP only
<slangasek> tdaitx: oh good, enjoy the scrollback then ;)
<xnox> cyphermox, i have no idea what CP is - is that available on a mainframe?
<tdaitx> yeah, as if the email backlog is not enough ;-)
<cyphermox> xnox: I suppose. Carrier Pidgeon?
 * barry fires up his old NeWS server
<slangasek> #endmeeting
 * caribou wants VAXnotes back
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Thu Jan 28 16:50:50 2016 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2016/ubuntu-meeting.2016-01-28-16.03.moin.txt
<barry> slangasek: why?  we were just geting started :)
<slangasek> barry: you can keep going, but I need more coffee ;)
<xnox> tdaitx, don't forget to update .plan file for the finger protocol!
<tdaitx> lol
#ubuntu-meeting 2016-01-29
<Kilos> o/
#ubuntu-meeting 2016-01-30
<Kilos> o/
#ubuntu-meeting 2017-01-23
<tyhicks> hello
<tyhicks> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Mon Jan 23 16:30:14 2017 UTC.  The chair is tyhicks. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
<tyhicks> The meeting agenda can be found at:
<tyhicks> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/Meeting
<tyhicks> [TOPIC] Announcements
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Announcements
<tyhicks> Ahmed Farag provided notifications for false positive virus identification for files in the archive (pnsnap, ettercap-common, dbacl, and libmail-deliverystatus-bounceparser-perl).
<tyhicks> Scott Kitterman (ScottK) provided a debdiff for trusty for pdns-recursor (LP: #1656931)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1656931 in pdns-recursor (Ubuntu Trusty) "Security update for pdns-recursor on trusty" [High,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1656931
<tyhicks> Clive Johnston (clivejo) provided a debdiff for xenial for ark (LP: #1655507)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1655507 in ark (Ubuntu Yakkety) "CVE-2017-5330 - Ark: unintended execution of scripts and executable files" [High,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1655507
<mdeslaur> \o
<tyhicks> Vishnu Vardhan Reddy Naini (visred) provided a debdiff for yakkety for ark (LP: #1655507)
<tyhicks> Thank you for your assistance in keeping Ubuntu users secure! :)
<tyhicks> [TOPIC] Weekly stand-up report
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Weekly stand-up report
<tyhicks> jdstrand: you're up
<jdstrand> This week I plan to work on:
<jdstrand> - various PR reviews (8 new ones since friday)
<jdstrand> - miscellaneous apparmor policy updates
<jdstrand> - prepare snap for testing security policy
<jdstrand> - seccomp arg filtering policy
<jdstrand> that's it from me. mdeslaur, you're up
<mdeslaur> I'm on community this week, so i'll be sponsoring a bunch of stuff
<mdeslaur> I have a short week, I'm off on friday
<mdeslaur> I plan on publishing a couple of usns this afternoon, and if I have time I'll be picking something from the list
<mdeslaur> that's it from me, sbeattie, you're up
<sbeattie> I'm on bug triage this week
<sbeattie> I'll have openjdk-8 packages from tdaitx to test and publish
<sbeattie> I need to push some packages to the security pocket that recent linux-raspi2 kernels depend on.
<sbeattie> after that, I'll be going through the list looking for updates as well
<sbeattie> that's it for me, tyhicks?
<tyhicks> I'm on cve triage this week
<tyhicks> I will finish and submit the second revision of seccomp/libseccomp patches to upstream
<tyhicks> I am also working on uploading AppArmor 2.11.0 to zesty but have hit some test failures that need to be sorted out first
<tyhicks> I have an embargoed issue
<tyhicks> any free time will go towards a security update
<tyhicks> that's it for me
<tyhicks> jjohansen: go ahead
<jjohansen> I will be looking into some outstanding bugs 1658219, and 1656121
<ubottu> bug 1658219 in AppArmor "flock not mediated by 'k'" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1658219
<jjohansen> and probably a couple more
<jjohansen> I have a nice stack of patches for the xenial/yakketty kernels that I need to cleanup and send up to the kteam
<jjohansen> I will be doing some work on revising the dconf/gsetting patches and synching with will on them
<jjohansen> and if I have any time I will be working on the next steps in upstreaming, likely the securityfs modification RFC
<jjohansen> thats it for me, sarnold? you're up
<sarnold> I'm in the happy place this week; I expect to finish the uvp-monitor sorta-mir today, I'll file some bugs with upstream project for things i've found so far. I'm having trouble seeing the point of the thing compared to e.g. collectd or other popular tools...
<sarnold> so tyhicks, another suggestion for the next thing to undertake soon, but not immediately :)
<sarnold> also I'm losing verbs at an astounding rate. good luck.
<tyhicks> sarnold: what's the suggestion?
<sarnold> tyhicks: hehe, the missing bit, "I need another suggestion" :) if it's another MIR or reactive or whatever
<ratliff> I would vote for libapache2-mod-auth-mellon
<tyhicks> I think there are some new MIRs that I need to add to the list
<tyhicks> I bet ratliff's suggestion is the right one to take next
<sarnold> works for me, thanks :)
<sarnold> that's it for me, chrisccoulson?
<chrisccoulson> It's firefox update week this week
<chrisccoulson> In addition to that, I need to fix some issues in the ubufox extension caused by breaking changes in firefox 53 (removal of the non-standard 'for each' syntax)
<chrisccoulson> I'll also be spending time trying to get rust backported, but I need to talk to foundations first to agree how to split the work
<chrisccoulson> Other than that, I'll be working on oxide stuff, particularly work around JS dialogs
<chrisccoulson> that's me done
<ratliff> I'm in the happy place this week
<ratliff> I will spend time working on updates for snappy-prev
<ratliff> back to you tyhicks
<tyhicks> thanks!
<tyhicks> [TOPIC] Highlighted packages
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Highlighted packages
<tyhicks> The Ubuntu Security team will highlight some community-supported packages that might be good candidates for updating and or triaging. If you would like to help Ubuntu and not sure where to start, this is a great way to do so.
<tyhicks> See https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/UpdateProcedures for details and if you have any questions, feel free to ask in #ubuntu-security. To find out other ways of helping out, please see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/GettingInvolved.
<tyhicks> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/pxz.html
<tyhicks> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/ckeditor.html
<tyhicks> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/radicale.html
<tyhicks> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/elog.html
<tyhicks> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/gksu.html
<tyhicks> [TOPIC] Miscellaneous and Questions
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Miscellaneous and Questions
<tyhicks> Does anyone have any other questions or items to discuss?
<tyhicks> chrisccoulson: I wanted to ask what sort of deadline are we looking at for having rustc available in the archive in old stable releases that don't already include it?
<chrisccoulson> tyhicks, I'm not entirely sure yet. Mozilla said firefox will depend on it in "early 2017", but that will give us between 12-18 weeks before it reaches stable
<tyhicks> chrisccoulson: ok, thanks
<chrisccoulson> So we've still got 3 months, at least
 * tyhicks nods
<tyhicks> jdstrand, mdeslaur, sbeattie, jjohansen, sarnold, ChrisCoulson, ratliff: Thanks!
<tyhicks> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Mon Jan 23 16:53:05 2017 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2017/ubuntu-meeting.2017-01-23-16.30.moin.txt
<ratliff> thank you, tyhicks!
<mdeslaur> thanks tyhicks!
<jjohansen> thanks tyhicks
<sarnold> thanks tyhicks!
<chrisccoulson> tyhicks, in fact, it's better than that. Because it's release week this week, we've got 18 weeks (unless they sneak a hard rust dependency in today)
<chrisccoulson> And one of the release cycles is 8 weeks (over the easter holiday), which pushes that out to 20 weeks
<chrisccoulson> https://wiki.mozilla.org/RapidRelease/Calendar
<chrisccoulson> (firefox 55 would be the earliest release with a hard rust dependency)
<tyhicks> chrisccoulson: that helps a lot - thanks
<tyhicks> ratliff: ^
<chrisccoulson> tyhicks, I mean firefox 54 btw, but that's still 20 weeks (june 13th)
<tyhicks> ack
#ubuntu-meeting 2017-01-24
<jgrimm> o/
<cpaelzer> o/
<powersj> o/
<caribou> \o
<jgrimm> rbasak really needs to remember to rotate chair on wiki
<smb> o/
<rbasak> o/
<rbasak> Am I chairing again then?
<jgrimm> heh, so sayeth the wiki
<cpaelzer> still no update?
<rbasak> Sorry. I didn't do the post-meeting chair stuff.
<smoser> o/
<jgrimm> rbasak, able to chair again, or i can jump in if not convenient for you
<rbasak> #startmeeting ubuntu-server-team
<meetingology> Meeting started Tue Jan 24 16:05:29 2017 UTC.  The chair is rbasak. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic:
<rbasak> #topic Review ACTION points from previous meeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Review ACTION points from previous meeting
<rbasak> caribou to verify with Huang if the Trusty Target is still required for bug 1640676
<ubottu> bug 1640676 in libvirt (Ubuntu) "[SRU] libvirt 1.2.12 live-migration corrupts some instances" [High,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1640676
<caribou> rbasak: this was done; the task was unneeded & got removed by cpaelzer
<rbasak> Great, thanks!
<rbasak> #topic Development Release
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Development Release
<rbasak> #link https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ZestyZapus/ReleaseSchedule
<jgrimm> #link https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/servercloud-z-server-core
<rbasak> I'm still (!) working on the squid3 merge. I have a tree that should work in theory now, in my git repo if anyone wants to take a peek.
<jgrimm> FF deadline counting down
<rbasak> #link https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/servercloud-z-server-core
<rbasak> Any other comments?
<rbasak> "Active work that may need wider communication"
<rbasak> Anything that is worth mentioning?
<cpaelzer> myself is working on qemu merge
<rharper> o/
<jgrimm> Given we are in the FF count down, i plan to go sweep through the blueprint and find owners for pending merges we'd like
<cpaelzer> I hope to have something worth to throw at coreycb and hallyn for review and further tests soon
<jgrimm> most have them from being picked up voluntarily
<cpaelzer> I also started to pick up trivial merges today
<jgrimm> \o/
<jgrimm> thank you
<rbasak> Thanks!
<rbasak> #topic Server & Cloud Bugs & SRU/Pending Uploads (caribou)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Server & Cloud Bugs & SRU/Pending Uploads (caribou)
<caribou> LP: #1356211 - (sosreport) cannot collect rotated syslog.1
<caribou> LP: #1366103 - (sosreport) sosreport doesn't collect all data from /etc/apparmor.d/
<caribou> LP: #1447695 - (sosreport) sosreport 3.2 does not collect systemd information
<caribou> LP: #1605243 - (sosreport) iscsi initiator related configs and logs are not recorded
<caribou> LP: #1614052 - (sosreport) SOSREPORT need to collect OPAL msglog
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1356211 in sosreport (Ubuntu Trusty) "cannot collect rotated syslog.1" [Medium,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1356211
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1366103 in sosreport (Ubuntu Trusty) "sosreport doesn't collect all data from /etc/apparmor.d/" [Medium,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1366103
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1447695 in sosreport (Ubuntu Trusty) "sosreport 3.2 does not collect systemd information" [Medium,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1447695
<caribou> all of those are mine
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1605243 in sosreport (Ubuntu Yakkety) "iscsi initiator related configs and logs are not recorded" [Medium,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1605243
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1614052 in sosreport (Ubuntu Yakkety) "SOSREPORT need to collect OPAL msglog" [Medium,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1614052
<caribou> LP: #1447715 - (ifupdown) dhclient -6: Can't bind to dhcp address: Cannot assign requested address
<caribou> LP: #1550983 - (gtk+3.0) Fails to start with "Couldn't open libGL.so.1" (missing dependency?)
<caribou> LP: #1579609 - (os-prober) os-prober bug resulting in possible FS corruption
<caribou> LP: #1621340 - (multipath-tools) [SRU]'multipath -r' causes /dev/mapper/<wwid> being removed
<caribou> LP: #1640382 - (qemu) Segfault event notifier because of race condition
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1447715 in ifupdown (Ubuntu Xenial) "dhclient -6: Can't bind to dhcp address: Cannot assign requested address" [Medium,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1447715
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1550983 in One Hundred Papercuts "Fails to start with "Couldn't open libGL.so.1" (missing dependency?)" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1550983
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1579609 in os-prober (Ubuntu Xenial) "os-prober bug resulting in possible FS corruption" [Critical,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1579609
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1621340 in multipath-tools (Ubuntu Xenial) "[SRU]'multipath -r' causes /dev/mapper/<wwid> being removed" [Medium,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1621340
<caribou> LP: #1642903 - (systemd) introduce disk/by-id (model_serial) symlinks for NVMe drives
<caribou> LP: #1647485 - (systemd) NVMe symlinks broken by devices with spaces in model or serial strings
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1640382 in qemu (Ubuntu Trusty) "Segfault event notifier because of race condition" [Medium,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1640382
<caribou> LP: #1648901 - (krb5) SPNEGO crash on mechanism failure
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1642903 in systemd (Ubuntu Trusty) "introduce disk/by-id (model_serial) symlinks for NVMe drives" [Wishlist,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1642903
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1647485 in systemd (Ubuntu Trusty) "NVMe symlinks broken by devices with spaces in model or serial strings" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1647485
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1648901 in krb5 (Ubuntu Xenial) "SPNEGO crash on mechanism failure" [Medium,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1648901
<caribou> not sure the liGL belongs here though :)
<caribou> I'm done with my bot storm :)
<rbasak> Any questions for caribou?
<jgrimm> not from me
<rbasak> #topic Weekly Updates & Questions for the QA Team (powersj)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Weekly Updates & Questions for the QA Team (powersj)
<powersj> Last week was cloud-init work reviewing Wes' merge request and working on unit tests. Gone through a number of 2016 weeks still requiring bug triage; down to 9 weeks. And spent time last week getting an arm64 system setup and configured for our use in Jenkins. Waiting on firewall port to be opened and then we are all set.
<powersj> Plan this week is to finish off the bug triage for 2016, meeting with smoser around a long list of cloud-init items (e.g. merge request, Github mirroring, tox file, SRU special case), and work on some more unit tests.
<powersj> questions?
<rharper> powersj: the suggested change to curtin vmtest runners on jenkins (-p 4 and TMPDIR on the nvme); are those changes committed to all curtin vmtest jobs ?
<powersj> rharper: yes
<rharper> \o/
<rharper> thanks
<powersj> np
<rbasak> Thanks powersj!
<rbasak> #topic Weekly Updates & Questions for the Kernel Team (smb, sforshee)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Weekly Updates & Questions for the Kernel Team (smb, sforshee)
<smb> Nothing from the kernel. For other reasons looking at nc (the openbsd variant) which might be worth mentioning (bug 1656785). Actually the debian bug that got linked is a second issue... or alternative working fact... Other than that: are there questions?
<ubottu> bug 1656785 in netcat-openbsd (Ubuntu) "nc -d -l does not return data (only empty strings)" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1656785
<rbasak> Thanks smb!
 * smb assumes no for the questions part
<rbasak> #topic Upcoming Call For Papers
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Upcoming Call For Papers
<rbasak> #link https://lwn.net/Calendar/Monthly/cfp/
<rbasak> Anything that needs mentioning?
<rbasak> #topic Ubuntu Server Team Events
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Ubuntu Server Team Events
<rbasak> Any events coming up worth mentioning?
<rbasak> #topic Open Discussion
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Open Discussion
<rbasak> AOB?
<jgrimm> not from me
<rbasak> #topic Announce next meeting date, time and chair
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Announce next meeting date, time and chair
<cpaelzer> rbasak: if you go another few weeks as chair you'll beat the 10 minute mark
<rbasak> The next meeting will be Tue 31 Jan 16:00:00 UTC 2017. jamespage is next on the list (still). I may end up having to chair again! :-)
<rbasak> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Tue Jan 24 16:18:06 2017 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2017/ubuntu-meeting.2017-01-24-16.05.moin.txt
<jgrimm> thanks rbasak
<caribou> thanks rbasak
<jamespage> rbasak, sorry my badness again
<rbasak> jamespage: no, I should have done the minutes from the last meeting!
 * rbasak has three sets to do now :-/
#ubuntu-meeting 2017-01-26
<sil2100> o/
<barry> o/
 * slangasek waves
<cyphermox> o/
<infinity> \o
<slangasek> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Thu Jan 26 16:02:08 2017 UTC.  The chair is slangasek. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
<slangasek> [TOPIC] Lightning round
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Lightning round
<slangasek> $ echo $(shuf -e barry doko bdmurray slangasek caribou infinity sil2100 robru cyphermox tdaitx xnox chiluk mwhudson)
<slangasek> mwhudson cyphermox robru chiluk slangasek caribou tdaitx doko infinity sil2100 bdmurray xnox barry
<barry> from first to last
<cyphermox> woah
<gaughen> o/
<cyphermox> - netplan netplan netplan
<cyphermox>  - bond support (with it's gazillion knobs)
<cyphermox>   - https://git.launchpad.net/netplan/log/?h=cyphermox/bonding
<cyphermox>  - bridge support
<cyphermox>   - https://git.launchpad.net/netplan/log/?h=cyphermox/bridging
<cyphermox>  - preparing for a 0.17 release (in code review)
<cyphermox> - os-prober fixes
<cyphermox>  - Sponsored more SRU updates from slashd
<cyphermox>  - Merged os-prober after cjwatson did some magic with it in Debian.
<cyphermox> - discussed NetworkManager issues / tasks with Tony.
<cyphermox> - ubiquity screenshots.
<cyphermox> - trying to reproduce ubiquity bugs on Intel:
<cyphermox>  - no slideshow on XPS13? (bug LP: #1659395)
<cyphermox>  - no "press enter" prompt after install (also XPS13) (bug LP: #1659398)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1659395 in ubiquity (Ubuntu) "No slides in the slideshow" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1659395
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1659398 in ubiquity (Ubuntu) "On intel gfx stack I see no enter to reboot prompt" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1659398
<cyphermox> - merging wpa from Debian to get 2.6.
<cyphermox> (done)
<robru> britney:
<robru> * Disable PIUParts (LP: #1651537)
<robru> * Fix upstream policy tests.
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1651537 in britney "noise in proposed-migration about piuparts, which we are not using" [Undecided,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1651537
<robru> bileto:
<robru> * Fix prereq check in git.
<robru> (done)
<slangasek> chiluk: ?
<chiluk> coming.
<slangasek> cyphermox: you managed to rope someone in for netplan code review, then?
<cyphermox> slangasek: yeah, doko did review already, and tdaitx said he would after the meeting
<tdaitx> slangasek, yes, me
<slangasek> cyphermox: spiff
<chiluk> LP#1647389 - Discovered workaround . live_migration_tunnelled = False. Checking upstream shortly.
<chiluk> LP#1655225 - Letting this bake at user site for a little longer
<chiluk> --done--
<chiluk> slangasek ..
<cyphermox> doko said it was the best code he had ever seen.
<cyphermox> ;D
<barry> :D
<gaughen> ha!
<infinity> It was bigly good?
<barry> tremendous
<cyphermox> so very bigly.
 * sil2100 wants to see it now
<slangasek>  * SRU processing, gardening of stable autopkgtest failures (lots more marked bad-test)
<slangasek>   * deputy systemd now present in trusty; another SRU in progress to finish up the integration with the desktop
<slangasek>  * productivity impacted this past week by unstable Internet connection (bad splice on an XDSL line after it was hit by a tree)
<slangasek>  * lots of talk, but unfortunately little work done, around subiquity design
<slangasek>  * alpha 2 milestone shepherding this week
<slangasek>  * planning for in-person partner meetings in February
<slangasek>  * rolling next round of stable images for ubuntu-core today
<slangasek> I'm a big fan of the code, big fan
<slangasek>  * MP review for apport retracer gdb sandbox magic (lp:~brian-murray/apport/sandbox-gdb)
<slangasek> (done)
<slangasek> caribou:
<caribou> Bugfix:
<caribou> qemu softlockup on Xenial
<caribou>  - Identified the Quilt patch causing problem in ne2000 network driver.
<caribou> tftp does not start
<caribou>  - Working on replacement of [::]:69 to :69
<caribou> LP: #1638695 - Running tests with different compiler options
<caribou>    -fstack-protection-strong is the only obvious difference b/w 4.8 & 5.3
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1638695 in python2.7 (Ubuntu) "Python 2.7.12 performance regression" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1638695
<caribou> LP: #1654600 - investigating systemd ordering
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1654600 in unattended-upgrades (Ubuntu Xenial) "unattended-upgrade-shutdown hangs when /var is a separate filesystem" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1654600
<caribou> Development:
<cyphermox> tftp: [::]:69 to :69 -> what what?
<caribou> LP: #103690 - IBM ppc64 - crash tool does not work on 4.8 kernels
<caribou>  - SRU ongoing
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 103690 in ndiswrapper (Ubuntu) "Ndiswrapper can't connect to WPA network using 2.6.20-14-generic on amd64 (feisty)" [Undecided,Invalid] https://launchpad.net/bugs/103690
<caribou> misc:
<caribou> meetings
<caribou> â Done
<tdaitx> = OpenJDK Updates
<tdaitx> * OpenJDK 8
<tdaitx>   - Finished packaging Zesty, Yakkety, Xenial on Sunday (compensating for non-planned off time on Friday)
<tdaitx>   - Repackaged on Monday to re-add patches that were not on Debian (thus Zesty)
<tdaitx>   - Provided packages for Yakkety and Xenial to the Security Team
<tdaitx> * OpenJDK 7
<tdaitx>   - Continued working on the security update backports
<tdaitx>   - Of 19 patches, only 2 to go
<tdaitx> * Other
<tdaitx>   - Taking the day out tomorrow to throw money away in Geneve, do tour in CERN, and hopefully a ski class on the nearby alps (self-learning otherwise).
<infinity> caribou: I think you might be missing a digit in that bug ref. ;)
<tdaitx> (done)
<cyphermox> caribou: seems wrong, I've had tftpd work, not that it usually does much.
<caribou> cyphermox: [::]:69 will fail if the NIC is not up
<cyphermox> interesting.
<caribou> infinity: yeah sorry
<cyphermox> tdaitx: oh, so you can actually tour CERN? nice.
<slangasek> caribou: qemu> I don't suppose you have any interest in the qemu SRU that's currently stalled in trusty-proposed, awaiting verification?
<barry> tdaitx: can you get me a jar of bottom quarks?
<tdaitx> cyphermox, not the LHC itself, just the ground floor
<cyphermox> tdaitx: well, yeah, still nice.
<caribou> slangasek: no but I can check
<slangasek> caribou: it's bug #1587039 (thanks!)
<ubottu> bug 1587039 in qemu (Ubuntu Trusty) "aio: strengthen memory barriers for bottom half scheduling" [Undecided,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1587039
<cyphermox> barry: better pick the strange quarks, worth more.
<tdaitx> barry, sure, don't think they will live long enough for me to bring them back thou
<slangasek> tdaitx: is the accelerator ring open for tours right now?  it wasn't when we went during DebConf
<slangasek> doko:
<tdaitx> slangasek, nah, just the tourist parts on the ground floor
<infinity> slangasek: It'll be open for tours after the alt-right turns it into a water park.
<slangasek> tdaitx: instead, the highlight of our tour was Ian Jackson asking questions that suggested he was trying to replicate the experiment in his back yard
<slangasek> infinity: doko is being quiet, go ahead?
<infinity> * All point release, all the time:
<infinity>   - Working with Timo on userspace stuff, and tons of reviews of same
<infinity>   - Working with Andy on kernel stuff, and finalizing same
<infinity>   - Working on finishing touches for cdimage and debian-installer
<infinity>   - Lots of bits and bobs here and conversations here and there related to 16.04.2
<infinity> (done)
<sil2100> - Landing team work, silo coordination
<sil2100> - Multiple SRU reviews
<sil2100> - Discussions regarding OTA-15 for touch
<sil2100> - Reading up on proper conffile handling
<sil2100> - ubuntu-image:
<sil2100>   * A lot of tests involving pyparted to check feature parity with existing tools
<sil2100>   * Reading a lot of libparted code to figure out how it sets the partition type GUID
<sil2100>   * Prepping a test implementation using pyparted and sgdisk for GUIDs
<sil2100>   * Started work on proper implementation of GUID handling
<sil2100> - Making sure that walinuxagent migrates to -updates
<sil2100> - Performing image re-spins for kubuntu
<sil2100> (done)
<bdmurray> nvestigation into gdb crash from trusty with apport gdb sandbox change
<bdmurray> fixed gdb crash from trusty with apport gdb sandbox change
<bdmurray> modified to apport gdb sandbox branch to work with a permanent rootdir and interactive gdb session
<bdmurray> generated zesty, yakkety, xenial, trusty armhf test-crashes on porter-armhf
<bdmurray> switched to apport gdb sandbox branch in dev ops
<bdmurray> reported and fixed apport bug LP: #1658188
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1658188 in apport (Ubuntu) "/usr/share/apport/apport-gtk:TypeError:/usr/share/apport/apport-gtk@597:run_argv:run_crashes" [Medium,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1658188
<bdmurray> reported and fixed apport bug LP: #1659122 re packages and permanent sandbox
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1659122 in Apport "install_packages() makes an assumption that a downloaded package has been extracted" [Medium,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1659122
<bdmurray> reported debmirror bug LP: #1658203
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1658203 in debmirror (Ubuntu) "debmirror isn't mirroring trusty's Contents-*.gz files" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1658203
<bdmurray> reviewed bug patterns merge proposal
<bdmurray> review of bad SRUs with sil2100
<bdmurray> SRU verification of bug LP: #1646222
<bdmurray> virtual sprint meeting
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1646222 in ubuntu-release-upgrader (Ubuntu Yakkety) "calculation of needed free space in /boot is inaccurate and causes refusal to upgrade" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1646222
<bdmurray> â finished
<slangasek> no xnox this week
<slangasek> barry:
<barry> more python 3.6 transition work; ppa now holding test rebuilds results: https://launchpad.net/~pythoneers/+archive/ubuntu/python-rebuilds/+packages
<barry> ubuntu-image 0.14; start multivolume support, first step, -o/-O sanity; LP: #1655133; LP: #1641727
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1655133 in ubuntu-image (Ubuntu) "SRU 0.14 tracking bug" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1655133
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1641727 in Ubuntu Image "Support multiple volumes per gadget.yaml" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1641727
<slangasek> bdmurray, sil2100: where does that leave us on the question of letting sil2100 loose on SRUs?
<barry> debuntu: LP: #1623856; flufl enum 4.1.1 and 4.1.1-1; debian bug #852155; debian bug #852475;
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1623856 in aptdaemon (Ubuntu Zesty) "Scrolled Windows in update-manager are too small to read" [Low,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1623856
<ubottu> Debian bug 852155 in src:python-persistent "python-persistent: please add dependency âSuggests: python-persistent-docâ" [Minor,Open] http://bugs.debian.org/852155
<ubottu> Debian bug 852475 in autopkgtest "autopkgtest: apt-get install needs automatic conffile handling" [Normal,Open] http://bugs.debian.org/852475
<barry> --done--
<slangasek> great
<slangasek> any questions?
<sil2100> slangasek: bdmurray gave me green light on doing UNAPPROVED reviews, so I'm doing those normally now
<slangasek> sil2100: awesome
<sil2100> slangasek: for moving updates from -proposed I still didn't do any there (besides walinuxagent just now), so I'll still poke bdmurray before proceeding
<sil2100> But those are less of time consuming for a mentor I suppose
<slangasek> so we hope ;)
<bdmurray> barry: Are you just working on the aptdaemon part of bug 1623856?
<ubottu> bug 1623856 in aptdaemon (Ubuntu Zesty) "Scrolled Windows in update-manager are too small to read" [Low,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1623856
<barry> bdmurray: yep
<caribou> yeah, got a simple one : Is hardware enablement covered by the Feature Freeze ?
<infinity> caribou: Ish.
<barry> it's a pita because aptdaemon is basically abandoned and it's having problems passing its test suite.  it's already dropped from debian.  we should drop it from ubuntu :/
<slangasek> caribou: well, the kernel freeze is much later, so... I think that's a qualified no
<barry> (i got it passing locally, but its still ftbfs)
<slangasek> barry: hmm, the replacement for aptdaemon is not integrated in Ubuntu
<barry> slangasek: yeah :(
<slangasek> and the desktop team has been punting that particular bit of work
<caribou> infinity: arm64 enablement will hit Debian/Sid soon for kexec-tools so we'd avoid a delta if we wait a bit for that to come from Debian
<infinity> caribou: For kernel work, see Steve's response, for userspace work, you should still ask the release team, but the default answer should be that HWE uploads are allowed unless they're obviously untested and disruptive.
<barry> slangasek: yeah :( :(
<infinity> caribou: In that specific case, I'm pretty sure it'll be fine to land it post-FF.
<caribou> infinity: good thanks!
<slangasek> alrighty
<slangasek> anything else?
<bdmurray> Anybody familiar with debmirror?
<slangasek> only as a swear word
<cyphermox> not really
<infinity> bdmurray: Sort of, but I need to know what my response it committing me to.
<cyphermox> happy to look?
<infinity> s/it/is/
<cyphermox> oh god, what have I done
<bdmurray> its bug 1658203 and I haven't dug into it at all
<ubottu> bug 1658203 in debmirror (Ubuntu) "debmirror isn't mirroring trusty's Contents-*.gz files" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1658203
<bdmurray> I think that's it then
<slangasek> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Thu Jan 26 16:34:58 2017 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2017/ubuntu-meeting.2017-01-26-16.02.moin.txt
<slangasek> thanks, all!
<barry> thanks!
<cyphermox> thanks
#ubuntu-meeting 2017-01-28
<hwpplayer1> can i learn if ubuntu hardened team will have a meeting
#ubuntu-meeting 2018-01-22
<tyhicks> hello
<tyhicks> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Mon Jan 22 16:43:28 2018 UTC.  The chair is tyhicks. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
<tyhicks> The meeting agenda can be found at:
<tyhicks> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/Meeting
<tyhicks> [TOPIC] Announcements
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Announcements
<tyhicks> Otto KekÃ¤lÃ¤inen provided debdiffs for mariadb-5.5, mariadb-10.0, and mariadb-10.1 (LP: #1740608) (LP: #740768)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1740608 in mariadb-5.5 (Ubuntu) "USN-3459-1: partially applies to MariaDB too" [Medium,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1740608
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 740768 in Datum soerepro "soerepro: cultural practices extraction, Fatal error: Method CForm::__toString() must not throw an exception" [Critical,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/740768
<tyhicks> that's not the right bug
<tyhicks> I dropped a digit
<tyhicks> (LP: #1740768)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1740768 in mariadb-10.1 (Ubuntu) "CVE-2017-15365: Replication in sql/event_data_objects.cc occurs before ACL checks" [Undecided,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1740768
<mdeslaur> \o
<tyhicks> Ray Link (rlink) provided a debdiff for xenial for xmltooling (LP: #1743762)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1743762 in xmltooling (Ubuntu Bionic) "Security bug in XMLTooling-C before 1.6.3 [CVE-2018-0486]" [Undecided,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1743762
<tyhicks> Thank you for your assistance in keeping Ubuntu users secure! :)
<tyhicks> [TOPIC] Weekly stand-up report
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Weekly stand-up report
<tyhicks> jdstrand: you're up
<jdstrand> hi
<jdstrand> Last week I attended the product sprint so this week I will be playing catch-up and working through sprint outcomes. In addition to that, I plan to focus on:
<jdstrand> * snappy PR reviews, esp wrt the layouts feature, portals and the x11 interface slot policy
<jdstrand> * look at an lxd snap regression wrt to 'partial apparmor confinement' feature
<jdstrand> * prepare a demo with tyhicks wrt lsm stacking
<jdstrand> * review tools updates as have time
<jdstrand> * create screecast interface as have time
<jdstrand> * strict mode snaps on livecd as have time
<jdstrand> that's it from me. mdeslaur, you're up
<mdeslaur> I'm on triage this week
<mdeslaur> and I'm in the process of publishing a few usns
<mdeslaur> I need to take a look at the state of qemu patches
<mdeslaur> and will either work on that this week, or something else depending on priority
<mdeslaur> that's about it for me, sbeattie?
<sbeattie> I'm in the happy place this week
<sbeattie> I'm working on backporting the gcc retpoline patchset back to trusty + precise-esm, after having respun them.
<sbeattie> (those are x86 only)
<sbeattie> I'm also trying to track down chat toolchain changes are needed for other arches.
<sbeattie> There'll be some kernel USNs to publish as the first attempt at spectre mitigations lands.
<sbeattie> (and the usual kernel cve triage)
<sbeattie> There's also likely openjdk packages coming down the pike.
<sbeattie> That's it for me.
<sbeattie> tyhicks: you're up.
<tyhicks> sbeattie: that sounds like a lot going on at once so pull me in when needed
<tyhicks> I have sprint followups
<tyhicks> need to transcribe my notes
<tyhicks> (from the sprint)
<tyhicks> working on an LSM stacking demo
<tyhicks> meltdown and spectre coordination will continue to take quite a bit of my time
<tyhicks> that's probably enough for this week
<tyhicks> jjohansen: you're up
<jdstrand> oh I forgot to mention the chrony upload
<jdstrand> I plan to upload chrony with an apparmor profile
<jjohansen> I am working on updating our stacking patches against the latest revision of the LSM stacking patches
<jjohansen> once I get that done it will be back to looking at the mount patches
<jjohansen> and fosdem prep
<jjohansen> and of course working on the 4.16 pull request
<jjohansen> that is it for me, sarnold you are up
<tyhicks> jjohansen: the mount patches are for the 4.16 pull request, right?
<jjohansen> tyhicks: I know David would like to get them in, whether they are actually going 4.16 I am unsure
<tyhicks> oh, that's for David
<jjohansen> yeah, the whole mount system rework
<tyhicks> right
<tyhicks> I forgot about that
<jjohansen> atm I am working with it as if they are going to be part of a 4.16 pull request, and will be happy if they aren't
<tyhicks> ack, thanks
<tyhicks> sarnold: go ahead
<sarnold> I'm on community this week; I'm starting the libsdl2 MIR
<sarnold> at least I think that's the one to start; ratliff said a few weeks ago that it'd be next in the queue, but now I see that cpae lzer intends to switch qemu to use the new sdl in 18.10 ..
<sarnold> which makes me curious what the plan ought to be
<sarnold> there's nothing too wrong with doing a mir 'earlier' than it's needed of course but it'd probably be nice to have just one sdl in 18.04 main
<tyhicks> sarnold: lets sync with cpae lzer after this meeting and get his opinion on that vs chrony vs something else
<sarnold> tyhicks: okay, makes sense
<sarnold> chrisccoulson, you're up :)
<chrisccoulson> I've got firefox updates this week, and a chromium update to test and publish
<chrisccoulson> I also need to start the first rust update of 2018. Hoping it will be an easy one
<chrisccoulson> I did finally start on the changes to the apparmor audit logging last week, so I intend to carry on with that this week
<tyhicks> oh, nice
<chrisccoulson> and I can step in if sbeattie wants any help with openjdk updates too
<chrisccoulson> that's me done
<tyhicks> leosilva: you're up
<leosilva> I'm in bug triage this week
<leosilva> I have a gimp USN to push and rsync too.
<leosilva> Also have a libvirt updates to re-test and figure out what is happening in precise version.
<leosilva> besided that I'll push mysql to my update stack and keepg looking for others pkgs.
<leosilva> That's all from me.
<leosilva> tyhicks: you are back.
<tyhicks> thanks!
<tyhicks> [TOPIC] Highlighted packages
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Highlighted packages
<tyhicks> The Ubuntu Security team will highlight some community-supported packages that might be good candidates for updating and or triaging. If you would like to help Ubuntu and not sure where to start, this is a great way to do so.
<tyhicks> See https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/UpdateProcedures for details and if you have any questions, feel free to ask in #ubuntu-security. To find out other ways of helping out, please see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/GettingInvolved.
<tyhicks> https://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/nip2.html
<tyhicks> https://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/simple-xml.html
<tyhicks> https://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/pjproject.html
<tyhicks> https://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/open-iscsi.html
<tyhicks> Does anyone have any other questions or items to discuss?
<tyhicks> https://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/python-tablib.html
<tyhicks> [TOPIC] Miscellaneous and Questions
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Miscellaneous and Questions
<tyhicks> jdstrand, mdeslaur, sbeattie, jjohansen, sarnold, ChrisCoulson, leosilva: Thanks!
<tyhicks> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Mon Jan 22 17:09:57 2018 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2018/ubuntu-meeting.2018-01-22-16.43.moin.txt
<leosilva> tks tyhicks!
<sbeattie> tyhicks: thanks!
<sarnold> thanks tyhicks!
<jjohansen> thanks tyhicks
<jdstrand> tyhicks: thanks!
#ubuntu-meeting 2018-01-25
 * slangasek waves
<sil2100> o/
<philroche> \o
<slangasek> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Thu Jan 25 16:01:00 2018 UTC.  The chair is slangasek. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
<slangasek> [TOPIC] Lightning round
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Lightning round
<slangasek> $ echo $(shuf -e slangasek bdmurray xnox tdaitx doko sil2100 rbalint infinity cyphermox mwhudson rcj philroche Odd_Bloke tribaal fginther juliank)
<slangasek> doko slangasek cyphermox mwhudson bdmurray rcj Odd_Bloke fginther philroche xnox sil2100 juliank rbalint tribaal infinity tdaitx
<slangasek> and doko is out today
 * Odd_Bloke is running late from a previous meeting, if he could be deferred to the end of the round.
<slangasek> so I win!
<slangasek> Odd_Bloke: ack
<rbalint> o/
<slangasek>  * at product sprint in cape town last week, and off M-W this week, so little to report
<slangasek>  * continuing engagement around Spectre+Meltdown
<slangasek> cyphermox:
<slangasek> (done)
<cyphermox> I'm not done yet
<sil2100> Oh, looks like slangasek said that cyphermox is done
<sil2100> ;)
<cyphermox> MIR:
<cyphermox> - review rdma-core
<cyphermox> bionic:
<cyphermox> - discuss further netcfg fixes for hostname preseeding with slashd
<cyphermox> netplan:
<cyphermox> y
<cyphermox> argh
<cyphermox> - fixup for Ryan's port-priority update
<cyphermox> - migrate netplan to github
<cyphermox> - release 0.33 (highlight)
<cyphermox> - setup per-commit CI
<cyphermox> shim-review:
<cyphermox> - review Blancco shim
<cyphermox> - review IGEL's shim
<cyphermox> xenial:
<cyphermox> - grub2 net NIC selection fix
<cyphermox> other stuff:
<cyphermox> - code-review for rcj's initramfs-compression fix for ubuntu-cpc
<cyphermox> - discuss netplan and juju interaction for /e/n/i fix
<cyphermox> (done) (done)
<cyphermox> hmm, looks like I need to fix my xslt for that highlight
<slangasek> cyphermox, sil2100: speculative execution via IRC?  because I entered those lines in the correct order ;)
<slangasek> bdmurray:
<slangasek> bdmurray is off
<slangasek> rcj:
<sil2100> ;)
<rcj>  - Publication of new cloud release images in response to Spectre-related kernel
<rcj>  updates
<rcj> - cloud-image build system engineering
<rcj> (done)
<fginther> * CVE-2017-5754 related image publication
<fginther>   - Monitoring and performing some manual operations to publish images
<fginther>   - Fixed an issue that was causing an image build failure
<fginther> * Performed some End-of-Life updates for zesty
<ubottu> Systems with microprocessors utilizing speculative execution and indirect branch prediction may allow unauthorized disclosure of information to an attacker with local user access via a side-channel analysis of the data cache. (http://cve.mitre.org/cgi-bin/cvename.cgi?name=CVE-2017-5754)
<fginther> * Development work for automated image publication to a partner cloud
<fginther> * Identified some firewall updates needed for external endpoint changes
<fginther> (done)
<philroche> * Cloud image build system maintenance
<philroche> * Spectre CVE cloud image delivery
<philroche> (done)
<slangasek> xnox is out
<slangasek> sil2100:
<sil2100> - Once again a lot of respin kernel SRUs
<sil2100> - Regular SRU reviews and releases
<sil2100> - Handling the release of xenial 16.04.4 language-pack updates
<sil2100> - Preparing the base bionic language packs for upload
<sil2100> - Fixing my broken kernel-sru bot instance
<sil2100> - Preparing and uploading grub2 for vt.handoff=1 switch (with testing)
<sil2100>   * Also looking into what the vt.handoff kernel code actually does
<sil2100> - Checking some autopkgtest failures for some xenial python-defaults landings
<sil2100> - Working on some NBS:
<sil2100>   * Sending patch for debian-cd to Debian
<sil2100>   * Trying to remove NBS dep from activemq - package FTBFS
<sil2100> - 16.04.4 discussions
<sil2100> (done)
<slangasek> juliank:
<juliank> * updated the distro a bit - 13 "new" merges & syncs (since last meeting): zsh, transmission (CVE-2018-5702), aptitude, brltty (bug 1741070), readline (sync), slang2, strace, gnutls28, kbd, wget, valgrind, dash, curl
<juliank> * 3 other simple uploads: ppc64-diag (bug 1744707), lsvpd (bug 1741070), lshw (bug 1741070) - simple backlog growth prevention.
<juliank> * finished the multipath-tools merge, thanks cpaelzer for reviewing and testing it
<juliank> * would like to merge some harder stuff like rsyslog or pam
<juliank> * need to fix some regressions from the merges :(
<ubottu> bug 1741070 in brltty (Ubuntu) "Please merge brltty (main) 5.5-4 from Debian unstable (main)" [Wishlist,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1741070
<ubottu> Transmission through 2.92 relies on X-Transmission-Session-Id (which is not a forbidden header for Fetch) for access control, which allows remote attackers to execute arbitrary RPC commands, and consequently write to arbitrary files, via POST requests to /transmission/rpc in conjunction with a DNS rebinding attack. (http://cve.mitre.org/cgi-bin/cvename.cgi?name=CVE-2018-5702)
<ubottu> bug 1744707 in The Ubuntu-power-systems project "ppc64-diag fixes for Ubuntu 18.04" [High,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1744707
<slangasek> sil2100: kernel-sru bot?
<sil2100> slangasek: I have a bot that pokes me whenever there's a new kernel ready for review or release
<juliank> (done)
<rbalint> * flash-kernel merge, waiting a test on actual hw in LP: #1690650
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1690650 in flash-kernel (Ubuntu) "flash kernel reports unsupported platform on rpi 2 1.2" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1690650
<rbalint> * internal testbed setup
<rbalint> (done)
<slangasek> juliank: pam already has a merge in progress, please don't steal
<sil2100> slangasek: but it got busted, mainly because my instance ran out of disk space due to the kernels, but now I'm manually autoremoving those just in case ;)
<juliank> slangasek: awesome
<slangasek> sil2100: if only we had some technology to autoremove unused kernels
 * juliank wanted to ask about that later
<sil2100> ;)
<slangasek> tribaal:
<rbalint> slangasek: i'm on it, :-)
<juliank> slangasek: there's a bug about automatic autoremoval in apt from sabdfl :)
<slangasek> no tribaal?
<slangasek> and no infinity
<slangasek> tdaitx:
<tdaitx> * OpenJDK 8 security updates:
<tdaitx>   - armhf, arm64, and s390x demanding some love (hotspot security fixes)
<tdaitx> * Ongoing backport to OpenJDK 7
<tdaitx> * Testing OpenJDK 9.0.4 as default openjdk
<tdaitx>   - going albeit slow, need to free more space again
<tdaitx> AOB:
<tdaitx> - where should I go to debug s390x core files? is there a porter box somewhere?
<tdaitx> - docker is a buffoon and leaves piles of btrfs subvolumes around
<tdaitx> (done)
<Odd_Bloke> * Similar to Steve, at product sprint and off for most of this week
<Odd_Bloke> * Continued Meltdown/Spectre work
<Odd_Bloke> * Adding the lxd snap to our matrix of lxd testing
<Odd_Bloke> (done)
<slangasek> tdaitx: there's not a formal "porter box" setup for s390x but we can get you access
<slangasek> tdaitx: ping me after the meeting?
<tdaitx> slangasek: sure, thanks!
<slangasek> any questions over status?
<slangasek> since bdmurray is off, I think we'll skip over bugs this week
<slangasek> [TOPIC] AOB
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: AOB
<slangasek> anything else?
<sil2100> I have a question
<sil2100> So debian-cd is holding up lynx-cur as an NBS, but I see that we never actually had an Ubuntu delata in debian-cd
<slangasek> the nbs report is blind to alternatives and such
<sil2100> I forwarded the patch to Debian, but should we wait for the next debian-cd release that will get synced?
<slangasek> is it possible this is not a real blocker for removal?
<slangasek> Depends: lynx-cur | lynx
<sil2100> Not sure, I thought alternatives still keep the binary around
<slangasek> so should be possible to remove
<sil2100> Oh, this I did not know!
<slangasek> the report could be improved
<sil2100> slangasek: ok, then I'll just remove the binary then, since that's the only leftover
<sil2100> phew
<slangasek> sil2100: sounds good :)
<sil2100> I thought I'd have to eb the bad guy to first introduce an ubuntu delta for debian-cd ;p
<sil2100> Thanks!
<slangasek> ok cool
<slangasek> anything else?
<slangasek> quick meeting
<slangasek> everyone can get back to the fire drills in progress
<slangasek> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Thu Jan 25 16:17:59 2018 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2018/ubuntu-meeting.2018-01-25-16.01.moin.txt
<slangasek> thanks!
 * genii gathers up all the coffee mugs and plates with leftover donuts 
#ubuntu-meeting 2019-01-22
 * doko looks around for people attending the MIR meeting 
<didrocks> o/
<doko> didrocks: does the desktop team wants to subscribe to flatpack?
<didrocks> doko: I don't think we want to have flatpak in main, who opened the MIR?
<doko> your active community member ...
<didrocks> doko: we'll handle it, don't worry about it
<didrocks> ah, it's only for the libs
<didrocks> (well, Status is incomplete, let's wait for it to be set to confirmed)
<doko> well, it's incomplete because it doesn't have a subscriber
<didrocks> the reason for "incomplete" isn't given or did I miss anything?
<didrocks> or was it some IRC discussion?
<doko> it's the default state when you open a new one
<didrocks> anyway, I'll chat with him, no worry
<doko> didrocks: http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-archive/component-mismatches-proposed.svg  emacs needs attention
<doko> jamespage: http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-archive/component-mismatches-proposed.svg  while devscripts says it belongs to foundations, it's only referenced by server stuff now
<didrocks> doko: we discussed emacs already within around team and management is analyzing it to see if we drop it from supported or not
#ubuntu-meeting 2019-01-24
<sil2100> o/
<xnox> whoops, i was not here
<doko> ?
<cyphermox> o/
<juliank> \o|o/
<cyphermox> #startmeeting Weekly Ubuntu Foundations team
<meetingology> Meeting started Thu Jan 24 16:03:45 2019 UTC.  The chair is cyphermox. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | <wxl> be nice | Weekly Ubuntu Foundations team Meeting | Current topic:
<cyphermox> #topic Lightning rounds
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | <wxl> be nice | Weekly Ubuntu Foundations team Meeting | Current topic: Lightning rounds
<cyphermox> echo $(shuf -e vorlon bdmurray xnox tdaitx doko sil2100 rbalint infinity cyphermox mwhudson juliank waveform)
<cyphermox> xnox infinity waveform sil2100 vorlon cyphermox tdaitx rbalint doko bdmurray mwhudson juliank
<cyphermox> winner is xnox this week.
<xnox> oh really
<xnox> not fair =)
<cyphermox> not rigged =)
<tdaitx> he is setting up his new router
<xnox> * systemd fun -> untangled migrations of related things, now down to just systemd/ppc64el
<cyphermox> xnox: need more time then?
<rbalint> o/
<xnox> * s390-tools srus
<xnox> * upstream upgrades of mdadm/systemd-upstreaming.
<xnox> * router hunter
<xnox> (done)
<doko> xnox: really? still seeing arm64
<cyphermox> I suspect infinity isn't around?
<waveform> okay, I'll go next then
<waveform> * RPi.GPIO updated to work on aarch64 but may need SRU?
<cyphermox> yup
<xnox> doko, i'm looking to get systemd migrate.... i need it to migrate such that triggered by things get better.... http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-archive/proposed-migration/update_excuses.html#systemd
<waveform> * gpiozero updated to work on aarch64. Will either need SRU or backport
<waveform> * wiringpi packaging (source v1!) needs updating
<waveform> * testing pigpio under aarch64; not working yet
<waveform> * tested current released on CM3; works but needs missing device-tree
<waveform> * tested current release on 3B, 3B+, 3A+ - working fine
<waveform> * still looking at kernel compression
<waveform> (done)
<cyphermox> nice
<sil2100> o/
<doko> waveform: you missed the archive training ;p
<bdmurray> xnox: Have you seen bug 1811071? also valgrind
<ubottu> bug 1811071 in The Ubuntu-power-systems project "Ubuntu19.04: valgrind does not properly handle the addex instruction (power9)" [Medium,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1811071
<sil2100> - Many kernel SRU reviews (new cycle)
<sil2100> - SRU reviews and releases
<sil2100> - DMB meeting
<sil2100> - Fixing core18 snap builds caused by a locale-dependent test failing on builders
<sil2100> - raspi3 'upstreaming':
<sil2100>   * Pushing flash-kernel, raspi3-firmware and Dave's u-boot + irqbalancer to bionic
<sil2100>   * Finished work-around hack for enabling multiverse in gadget tree builds on builders
<sil2100>   * Got working cdimage raspi3 builds for disco
<sil2100>   * Did a manual cpc livefs -proposed enabled raspi3 build - success!
<sil2100>   * Confirmed reported possible issues with using raspi3-firmware on pi3
<xnox> bdmurray, yes, valgrind with s390x fixes migrated. should upload that bit too.
<sil2100>   * Prepared an updated linux-firmware-raspi2 + livecd-rootfs in PPA for testing
<sil2100>   * Changed classic pi3-gadget to use different config.txt for armhf and arm64
<sil2100> - Sent credentials for core-snap rebuilds to CPC
<sil2100> - Fixed a typo in core-snap rebuilder jenkins script
<sil2100> - Started looking into trello API and the available Python bindings
<sil2100> - Sponsored irqbalancer and json-schema-validator for Dave
<sil2100> - Performed NEW reviews of ec2-hibinit-agent and zhmcclient
<sil2100> - Performed a few package removals
<sil2100> (done)
<cyphermox> no vorlon today
<cyphermox> cyphermox:
<cyphermox> - so. much. snow. shoveling.
<cyphermox> - MIR reviews: libimagequant, gnome-remote-desktop, pipewire
<cyphermox> - grub2: SRUs for signature checking, update-grub breadcumbs, LVM menu
<cyphermox> - dkms/shim-signed: preparing SRUs for self-signing process
<cyphermox> - update packagesets for DMB
<xnox> ooh ooh, had an awesome meeting with IBM presenting z14 mainframe storage groups, over webex.... because they can't give us access.
<cyphermox> - discussion with Microsoft on processes for shim reviews
<cyphermox> - helping slashd with a new package (sosreport cleaner)
<cyphermox> - reviewing http module to enable for grub EFI images
<cyphermox> (done)
<cyphermox> tdaitx:
<tdaitx> * openjdk-7 security update is on hold
<tdaitx>   - hotspot patch backport is kind of a beast
<tdaitx>   - upstream should be releasing the security updates soon anyway
<tdaitx> * reviewing failed packages in the bionic rebuild
<tdaitx>   - focusing on packages in main or packages that are (b-)deps of other main packages
<tdaitx> Other:
<tdaitx> - travelling Saturday to Europe
<tdaitx> - working half-days next week in UTC+1 timezone, will try to match work time to join the squad/team meetings
<tdaitx> - at FOSDEM in Brussels next weekend and the openjdk unconference on Monday (that translates to 3-5 February)
<tdaitx> (done)
<rbalint> * partner work
<tdaitx> rbalint: go!
<rbalint> * fixed meld's dependencies
<rbalint> * backported wireshark 2.6.6 for *-security
<rbalint> * fixed a bunch of unattended-upgrades regressions affecting Disco in git
<rbalint>   https://github.com/mvo5/unattended-upgrades/pull/166
<rbalint> * triaging the kubernetes vs. systemd-resolved issue
<rbalint> (done)
<doko> - GCC 9 packages are getting ready for upload to disco
<doko> - GCC 8 updates, pending upload
<doko> - openjdk-11 and openjdk-12 updates
<doko> - finally started bionic test rebuilds (archive & planned OpenSSL/OpenJDK/Python/GCC updates)
<doko> - MIR writing / reviews
<doko> - transition fun the whole week ...
<doko> - pestering people about addressing ftbfs and autopkg test failures, within the team and cross team. Not much success for both
<doko> - getting mobbed by desktop team members about my automake workaround
<doko> and how long does http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-archive/proposed-migration/update_excuses.html take to display for you?
<doko> (done)
<bdmurray> ooh, its me
<bdmurray> fixed Error Tracker mojo specification so it passes CI
<bdmurray> submitted RT re live-ues-foundations Jenkins jobs
<bdmurray> tested multiple systemd-resolved potential fixes for comcast mail servers
<bdmurray> SRU verification of debootstrap for T, X, released B
<bdmurray> rebuilt oops-repository so the Depends on python-cassandra takes
<bdmurray> tested livepatch not available notification for release upgrades
<bdmurray> merged livepatch not available notification to Disco, uploaded SRU for C
<bdmurray> verified livepatch notification bug LP: #1799310 for Cosmic
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1799310 in ubuntu-release-upgrader (Ubuntu Cosmic) "No warning when upgrading OS will turn off Livepatch" [Medium,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1799310
<bdmurray> uploaded ubuntu-release-upgrader, update-manager SRUs for 18.04, 18.10
<bdmurray> verified all (so many!) their bugs too
<bdmurray> uploaded intitramfs-tools SRU for 18.04 (LP: #1768230, #1561643)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1561643 in initramfs-tools (Ubuntu Bionic) "initramfs-tools ignores the FRAMEBUFFER option" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1561643
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1768230 in initramfs-tools (Ubuntu Bionic) "Long time booting : Failed to connect to lvmetad. Falling back to device scanning." [Undecided,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1768230
<bdmurray> â  done
<bdmurray> juliank:
<juliank>  * gnutls28 SRU ploaded
<juliank> * apt CVE fix
<juliank> * apt 1.8.0~beta1 releasing (lots of small branches merged!)
<juliank> * apt hardening work (getting a bit stuck)
<juliank> done
<tdaitx> doko: update_excuses takes about 7~10 seconds
<doko> I need a new laptop
<xnox> bdmurray, the framebuffer option stuff looks interesting.
<xnox> bdmurray, it's "fixed" in disco too?
<cyphermox> doko: why?
<cyphermox> #topic Release incoming bugs
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | <wxl> be nice | Weekly Ubuntu Foundations team Meeting | Current topic: Release incoming bugs
<tdaitx> doko: it is displayed as soon as it starts loading and I can scroll down, still 7~10 seconds to load everything
<juliank> doko: 7.67seconds I measured on my t480s
<cyphermox> oh, time to load excuses, ok
<cyphermox> took not long at all here.
<cyphermox> so; let's talk about the 18.04.2 bugs?
 * juliank measured using "Page load time" chrome extension
<bdmurray> bug 1812258
<ubottu> bug 1812258 in debian-installer (Ubuntu) "Bionic amd64 netboot image has incorrect permissions on kernel" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1812258
<bdmurray> I forget where those go again.
<bdmurray> Oh, maybe I should have reloaded.
<bdmurray> cyphermox: What about bug 1772374 for the point release?
<ubottu> bug 1772374 in OEM Priority Project "ubiquity need mount point /sys/firmware/efi/efivars" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1772374
<cyphermox> bdmurray: yes
<cyphermox> thanks for reminding me, I'll get on it right after the meeting
<bdmurray> cyphermox: So no card needed?
<cyphermox> no
<bdmurray> cyphermox: I think xnox merged a ubiquity fix for bionic from slangasek too
<cyphermox> yeah, I'll go have a look at ubiquity in general
<xnox> bdmurray, i have merged an duploaded again
<cyphermox> fwiw it's as simple as merging https://code.launchpad.net/~swem/ubiquity/+git/ubiquity/+merge/346666
<xnox> it should be in unapproved.
<xnox> there is more?
<xnox> looking
<cyphermox> xnox: oh, I can do it, no biggie
<xnox> seems legit.
<bdmurray> xnox: there is no ubiquity in the bionic queue
<xnox> hmmmm
<bdmurray> xnox: What about bug 1776626?
<ubottu> bug 1776626 in Ubuntu on IBM z Systems "[18.10 FEAT] Support 4k sectors for fast clear key dm-crypt - crypttab part" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1776626
<xnox> bdmurray, do not care.
<xnox> bdmurray, we never actually committed to backport all of that into bionic.
<bdmurray> xnox: What about bug 1760106?
<ubottu> bug 1760106 in klibc (Ubuntu Cosmic) "FFe: Enable configuring resume offset via sysfs" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1760106
<xnox> bdmurray, it's in disco, remaining tasks are unimportant.
<xnox> bdmurray, i kind of want to drop them to be fair.
<bdmurray> Okay, that was it for me.
<cyphermox> ok
<cyphermox> moving on to DD bugs?
<cyphermox> #link http://reqorts.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/rls-mgr/rls-dd-incoming-bug-tasks.html#foundations-bugs
<rbalint> i think we could have LP: #1803993 on the radar for bionic, too
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1803993 in plymouth (Ubuntu) "Password appears on the VT1 screen" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1803993
<cyphermox> rbalint: AFAIK that was fixed already
<cyphermox> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/gdm3/+bug/1767918
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1767918 in plymouth (Ubuntu Bionic) "Login password from GDM is shown in plain text on the VT1 console" [High,Fix released]
<xnox> *sigh*
<xnox> but but plymouth is supposed to be on vt1
<rbalint> cyphermox, seems like the fix ws not complete
<xnox> so should gdm
<xnox> why is there like handoff.vt=7 stuck somewhere?
<xnox> why, is there like handoff.vt=7 stuck somewhere?
<cyphermox> rbalint: doesn't tell much actually
<rbalint> https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/gdm/issues/408#note_360857
<rbalint> cyphermox, it may turn out that the fix was complete, but the newer report seems to be valid
<cyphermox> rbalint: wanna look into it then?
<rbalint> cyphermox, yes, it sounds important if it is not fixed yet
<bdmurray> xnox agreed to test it
<cyphermox> rbalint: I think what we were trying to say is that it likely is already fixed, and this could be caused by some extra bit laying around
<cyphermox> config and stuff
<cyphermox> like vt.handoff not doing what it should.
<bdmurray> there isn't much new in the dd list
<bdmurray> although bug 1812688 is new
<ubottu> bug 1812688 in automake-1.16 (Ubuntu) "self-check-report.sh fails on armhf/disco since new year" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1812688
<cyphermox> so sounds like xnox will test, and then we can look again
<cyphermox> ok, misunderstanding
<doko> bdmurray: I XFAIL'd it
<cyphermox> rbalint: you want to have a look at plymouth, see if our patch is solid, get more info from the reporter?
<cyphermox> doko: thanks
<cyphermox> ok next topic
<cyphermox> #topic Team proposed-migration report
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | <wxl> be nice | Weekly Ubuntu Foundations team Meeting | Current topic: Team proposed-migration report
<rbalint> cyphermox, i'd try to reproduce then see if the suggestion on gnome's tracker fixes it
<cyphermox> ok
<cyphermox> #link http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-archive/proposed-migration/update_excuses_by_team.html#foundations-bugs
<doko> to shorten that ...
<doko> we need systemd migrating, and hints updating
<doko> sil2100: ^^^
<doko> and blocking issues are: gsequencer coyote idlastro mothur ngraph-gtk redmine gap-io mir
<doko> besides to the latter everything else is unowned
<doko> maybe server cares about redmine
<xnox> so https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/debian-installer/+bug/1812258 commented and marked incompleted
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1812258 in debian-installer (Ubuntu) "Bionic amd64 netboot image has incorrect permissions on kernel" [Undecided,Incomplete]
<doko> escalated the kernel not migrating to gaughen and the kernel team
<doko> cyphermox: do you have gaughen powers for this meeting? then please assign people to one of those issues above ;-P
<cyphermox> I don't have super powers, no
<cyphermox> I'm just throwing people under the buses
<cyphermox> systemd sounds like xnox work, and he probably already is on top of it?
<xnox> i have local two patches to hopefully unfuck ppc64el
<bdmurray> So who will test e2fsprogs for Bionic?
<doko> so who volunteers for looking at gsequencer coyote idlastro mothur ngraph-gtk redmine gap-io mir
<doko> ?
<cyphermox> I said I'd try to do the patch, I can try to test e2fsprogs on bionic
<cyphermox> I haven't yet blown away my MAAS setup
<bdmurray> cyphermox: okay, great
<sil2100> I can look at mir
<doko> sil2100: ta, that is entangled with capnproto
<rbalint> pygments will migrate after new python
<cyphermox> doko: coyote, mothur; maybe
<doko> ok, that leaves gsequencer idlastro ngraph-gtk redmine gap-io
<doko> in Rome they close doors until things are done ...
<cyphermox> idlastro looks to go with coyote for gnudatalanguage tbh
<rbalint> doko, i take redmine blindly
<doko> rbalint: ta, please coordinate with server (ahasenack, cpaelzer)
<rbalint> doko, ok
<doko> that leaves gsequencer idlastro ngraph-gtk gap-io
<doko> sil2100, waveform, bdmurray: ^^^
<gaughen> doko, I don't see gsequencer on the update-excuses list
<doko> gaughen: you see it on http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-archive/proposed-migration/update_output_notest.txt
<gaughen> aaah, I was looking at http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-archive/proposed-migration/update_excuses_by_team.html
<doko> gaughen: and it's on excuses as well, triggered by jack-audio-connection-kit
<gaughen> I really don't see it on the link I pasted
<doko> gaughen: http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-archive/proposed-migration/update_excuses.html
<cyphermox> ok; we done with proposed-migration?
<doko> we still have gsequencer idlastro ngraph-gtk gap-io unaddressed
<cyphermox> I said I'm taking idlastro too
<doko> sorry, but this sucks. the last two meetings we adjourned this discussion
<doko> and I have one more topic
<doko> ta
<cyphermox> I understand
<cyphermox> fwiw it smells like a gnudatalanguage real regression
<doko> gsequencer ngraph-gtk gap-io
<doko> yep, I already pinged ginggs
<cyphermox> anybody not yet core-dev wants to play?
<doko> waveform: ^^^your turn ;p
<waveform> I got the hint ;) Just looking at gap-io to see if I have the slightest clue what's up!
<bdmurray> I'll give that ngraph-gtk a look
<cyphermox> waveform: ta. tbh, no clue what gap-io is at all ;P
<doko> ok, then I take gsequencer
<doko> please note, you can come up with a fix or a work around
<doko> cyphermox: next to AOB?
<sil2100> waveform: once I untangle mir+capnproto, I can help you out since you're probably new to all this ;)
<cyphermox> yes.
<waveform> sil2100, ta :)
<gaughen> doko, so are they all taken now?
<cyphermox> #topic AOB
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | <wxl> be nice | Weekly Ubuntu Foundations team Meeting | Current topic: AOB
<cpaelzer> rbalint: we have not investigated redmine yet, just skimmed it and thought it depends on ruby things which are in flight - if you take it (blindly or not) we'd appreciate
<xnox> sil2100, did mir get the MIR that they wanted for whatever new mir1.0 release?
<sil2100> xnox: no clue, I don't follow mir development, I'll just have to look into that
<doko> xnox, sil2100: no, I asked security to priotize today. but it's a ftbfs now as well
<doko> ok, now there is a bionic test rebuild ... http://people.canonical.com/~doko/ftbfs-report/test-rebuild-20181220-disco.html
<doko> a lot of regressions ...
<sil2100> xnox: anyway, I'll be looking at that tomorrow
<bdmurray> doko: bionic or disco test rebuild?
<doko> bdmurray: should I file tagged bug reports so that these get attention within the different teams?
<doko> aohh, wrong URL: http://people.canonical.com/~doko/ftbfs-report/test-rebuild-20181222-bionic.html
<xnox> /usr/lib/bin/capnp: not found
<xnox> sounds not fun
<sil2100> xnox: you want to take mir?
<xnox> sil2100, i think so.
<sil2100> Since you started investigating it now
<rbalint> cpaelzer, i take a look, maybe some in-flight packages are stuck
<xnox> sil2100, i have history
<sil2100> doko: ^
<sil2100> waveform: so maybe I'll pick up gap-io then o/
<waveform> yup, I'll take it
<waveform> sorry, meant - no I can take a look
<waveform> (til I get horribly stuck and come begging for help :)
<gaughen> doko, security team has put yaml-cpp on top of the security review queue
<doko> ta
<cyphermox> and we're over time
<cyphermox> anything else to discuss?
<gaughen> doko, did you get your other topic discussed?
<doko> so what about the bionic ftbfs?
<doko> gaughen: no, not the last one
<cyphermox> they need to be fixed...
<doko> bdmurray, sil2100: so filing tagged reports?
<bdmurray> doko: about the ones in main?
<doko> yes, at least those. 26 ...
<sil2100> doko: I'll look at libdbusmenu for sure, can look at a few others by the way
<bdmurray> that seems reasonable to me
<cyphermox> we don't have to assign them right now in this meeting
<cyphermox> but yes, they should be fixed
<doko> sil2100: it's not about a single one, but how to proceed
<doko> so how should I tag them?
<sil2100> I guess bdmurray might have better ideas, but I'd say a 'ftbfs' tag and affecting bionic should be enough?
<sil2100> bdmurray: ^ what do you think?
<doko> they should show up on the 18.04 LTS report
<bdmurray> sil2100: +1
<gaughen> doko, are these regressions?
<gaughen> okay, xnox says yes these are regressions
<xnox> doko, do you want to join the voice call? =)
<gaughen> doko, was bionic ftbfs your last topic?
<sil2100> doko: we could put them on the .2 milestone as well, but I'd like Adam as the driver to decide if that's the way to go
<sil2100> So for now I'd say just the tags and nominations
<doko> gaughen: they built before, so yes
<doko> sil2100: can you make show up adam in a meeting?
<doko> gaughen: yes, but I didn't get a reply yet
<xnox> doko, hehe
<doko> gaughen: maybe I just tag those as rls-cc-incoming
<gaughen> cc?
<doko> or whatover this tag is named
<cyphermox> doko: "they need to get done, they will be done on an opportunity basis" is your reply I guess right now
<cyphermox> and tag was rls-bb-incoming  / ftbfs / bionic   or did I get that wrong?
<sil2100> I wonder if we use the rls-**-incoming tasks for point releases
<sil2100> Maybe we should
<cyphermox> IIRC we did
<doko> so how to flag them?
<cyphermox> to some degre anyway
<sil2100> doko: ok, so fair point, add the rls-bb-incoming tag to it
<cyphermox> worst case is it won't be useful, but at least they will show up on the report
<sil2100> So ftbfs rls-bb-incoming and a nomination to bionic, for now
<doko> ta. will file these
<doko> ok
<sil2100> cyphermox: true, I hope Adam looks at that one!
<cyphermox> well; it's useful for anyone who wants to make the release , and later the point release, shinier.
<sil2100> Anyway, I will from now on for sure
<doko> what I never understand is if I should close the bug task for the development series ...
<cyphermox> doko: if it builds for the dev release, yeah,  no?
<doko> well yes, I can check that too
<cyphermox> since fix does not apply to dev release
<cyphermox> anyway, just a guess
<cyphermox> ok; closing meeting then?
<doko> gaughen, cyphermox: we should have a format where things don't fall off
<doko> like rotating the different topics
<cyphermox> doko: sorry, what?
<cyphermox> the format to not drop bugs is the incoming/tracking reports, no?
<gaughen> doko, you mean topics in our irc mtg here?
<cyphermox> for meetings I use http://people.ubuntu.com/~cyphermox/meetings/foundations.html ; open to additions / changes
<doko> the ftbfs issues were delayed and adjourned for hte last two meetings. that should not happen
<doko> just rotate these topics except for the status reports and aob
<cyphermox> doko: last meeting was special, no managers around. I'm not making decisions for the team without talking to our leaders.
<cyphermox> before last, I don't recall
 * doko ducks. which manager was present this meeting?
<cyphermox> gaughen was.
<gaughen> I was here this week!
<gaughen> and I still am
<cyphermox> doko: or is that why you ducked ;D
<doko> anyway, I'd like to stay in the time limits, and address issues not for one area
<cyphermox> anyway, this sounds very #endmeeting
<doko> for just one area
<doko> so if lts issues fall out, that's ok as well
<cyphermox> doko: if you think we should rotate every week so the meeting doesn't take 2 hours, I'm all for it. Let's check with vorlon who usually drives the meeting.
<cyphermox> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | <wxl> be nice
<meetingology> Meeting ended Thu Jan 24 17:20:49 2019 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2019/ubuntu-meeting.2019-01-24-16.03.moin.txt
<cyphermox> doko: I freestyled abit, added point release bugs this meeting and the last
<doko> cyphermox: ta
#ubuntu-meeting 2020-01-21
<bittin> Hello, anyone has a log of todays Kernel meeting missed it live :(
<bittin> or was it cancelled ?
#ubuntu-meeting 2020-01-23
<sil2100> o/
<juliank> o/
<waveform> \o
<rbalint> o/
<doko> o-
<juliank> #startmeeting Weekly Ubuntu Foundations team
<meetingology> Meeting started Thu Jan 23 16:05:01 2020 UTC.  The chair is juliank. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | <wxl> be nice | Weekly Ubuntu Foundations team Meeting | Current topic:
<juliank> #topic Lightning rounds
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | <wxl> be nice | Weekly Ubuntu Foundations team Meeting | Current topic: Lightning rounds
<juliank> echo $(shuf -e vorlon bdmurray xnox tdaitx doko sil2100 rbalint infinity cyphermox mwhudson juliank waveform)
<juliank> tdaitx sil2100 rbalint vorlon doko infinity bdmurray juliank waveform mwhudson xnox
<sil2100> Oh no, I almost won
<juliank> tdaitx is out
<sil2100> Oh, so I did win
<juliank> sil2100:
<sil2100> :(
<sil2100> - SRU reviews and releases
<sil2100> - 18.04.4:
<sil2100>   * Lots of coordination stuff, keeping release doc up-to-date
<sil2100>   * Kernel bumps in d-i (Adam did the missing installer seed changes)
<sil2100>   * Discussions regarding .disk/info
<sil2100>   * Releasing support for .disk/info in ubuntu-image, livecd-rootfs and cdimage for bionic
<sil2100>   * Work on updating pi-gadget for core18 to support pi4, back and forth on that one
<sil2100>   * Lots of fighting with snapcraft to make pi-gadget buildable again
<sil2100>   * Bumped the chroot to bionic for pi-gadget's travis CI
<sil2100>   * Handling of some .4 SRUs here and there
<sil2100>   * Building some test images
<sil2100>   * Started preparing language-pack updates for .4
<sil2100> - Helping out with release-related archive work
<sil2100> - Triaging ubuntu-image issues
<sil2100> - Looking into some issues with automation
<sil2100> (done)
<rbalint> (short week)
<rbalint> * partner work
<rbalint> * unattended-upgrades fixes, about to upload them
<rbalint> * uploads via Debian: wireshark 3.2.1, flatbuffers (ftbfs fix)
<rbalint> * merges/syncs: rtags, libnfs (mini transition), shadow
<rbalint> * uploaded systemd 244.1 with more fixes, it is about to migrate
<rbalint> (done)
<vorlon>  * i386/proposed migration:
<vorlon>   * fixed a bug in britney that caused over-triggering of packages on archs where we had no binaries; should make things a bit less manual now in terms of test overrides
<vorlon>   * fixed the apt pinning in autopkgtest to include both native and target arch packages, so that things don't fall back to installing everything from proposed, sometimes with bad results
<vorlon>  * SRU reviews
<vorlon>  * out tomorrow and Friday afternoon
<vorlon> (done)
<juliank> doko:
<doko> - python2 removal, now ready except for yade. See LP: #1860601.
<doko> - binutils update to the release branch
<doko> - fix oprofile for new binutils
<doko> - gcc-9 update
<doko> - some transitions
<vorlon> er and when I say "Tomorrow and Friday afternoon", I mean "today rest of day, and "tomorrow afternoon" :)
<doko> - discussions and draft for python2 removal email.
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1860601 in openblas (Ubuntu) "openblas: causes autopkgtest failure in hypre armhf" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1860601
<vorlon> doko: done?
<juliank> It feels like it
<juliank> I guess bdmurray is busy with other stuff, so
<vorlon> infinity not here; bdmurray out of office; juliank
<juliank> yes
<juliank> I played with VM to test LP: #1509717 and uploaded the SRUs for that to eoan and bionic
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1509717 in lvm2 (Ubuntu Eoan) "Wily LVM-RAID1 â md: personality for level 1 is not loaded" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1509717
<juliank> some more work on python-apt security stuff (merging branches), followup releases
<juliank> updated my PackageKit pull requests
<juliank> (done)
<juliank> waveform:
<waveform> * Investigated issue with wifi firmware (missing linux-firmware dep)
<waveform> * Investigated race with cloud-init mounting /boot/firmware; created workaround for livecd-rootfs
<waveform> * Bionic Pi4 SRUs:
<waveform> * flash-kernel, LP: #1847587 - after much discussion (many thanks to infinity and juliank!) this has been re-done to ensure the f-k trigger fires correctly in all circumstances
<waveform> * u-boot, LP: #1846329 - as part of the f-k changes above, this has now been simplified (no trigger to trigger a trigger!)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1847587 in flash-kernel (Ubuntu Bionic) "[SRU] Add entries for Pi 4" [Undecided,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1847587
<waveform> * Tons of testing of all aforementioned stuff on a variety of pi hardware!
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1846329 in u-boot (Ubuntu Bionic) "[SRU] 2019.07 to support Pi4 boot" [Undecided,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1846329
<waveform> * Did I mention all the testing?
<waveform> * ... on bionic and focal?
<waveform> * ... and a couple of sil2100's core18 images?
<waveform> * suffice it to say, there was a lot
<doko> - python2 removal, now ready except for yade. See LP: #1860601.
<doko> - binutils update to the release branch
<doko> - fix oprofile for new binutils
<doko> - gcc-9 update
<doko> - some transitions
<doko> - discussions and draft for python2 removal email.
<waveform> (done)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1860601 in openblas (Ubuntu) "openblas: causes autopkgtest failure in hypre armhf" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1860601
<juliank> OK, I guess the remaining two are not here, so
<vorlon> doko: you came through twice
<vorlon> fwiw
<juliank> #topic Release incoming bugs (focal)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | <wxl> be nice | Weekly Ubuntu Foundations team Meeting | Current topic: Release incoming bugs (focal)
<juliank> #link http://reqorts.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/rls-mgr/rls-ff-incoming-bug-tasks.html#foundations-bugs
<vorlon> the first one is in progress and has an assignee (desktop), let's just move that to committed
<vorlon> (in fact it's already targeted, let's just remove the tag)
<doko> oops, network issues
<vorlon> LP: #1859610 is also targeted and is fix committed, removing the tag
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1859610 in pygobject (Ubuntu Focal) "python-gi/arm64 segfaults with the focal-proposed libffi version" [High,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1859610
<vorlon> the others are medium or lower, so I think we can skip over those?
<juliank> Most are undecided
<vorlon> actually I'm going to target LP: #1854513, it's an s390x roadmap item
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1854513 in Ubuntu on IBM z Systems "casper should allow interactive configuration of ip= vlan= url= when incorrectly netbooted" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1854513
<vorlon> juliank: do we need to go through the undecided?
<juliank> I don't think it's worth it today at least
<juliank> #topic Release incoming bugs (eoan)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | <wxl> be nice | Weekly Ubuntu Foundations team Meeting | Current topic: Release incoming bugs (eoan)
<juliank> #link http://reqorts.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/rls-mgr/rls-ee-incoming-bug-tasks.html#foundations-bugs
<juliank> Quite a few in there
<vorlon> the top one is another zfs installer bug, assigned to desktop; I'll clean up tags
<vorlon> the rest are <= medium
<juliank> oh true
<juliank> #topic Release incoming bugs (bionic)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | <wxl> be nice | Weekly Ubuntu Foundations team Meeting | Current topic: Release incoming bugs (bionic)
<juliank> #link http://reqorts.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/rls-mgr/rls-bb-incoming-bug-tasks.html#foundations-bugs
<juliank> 1 critical bug and 1 high bug
<vorlon> the first is again already targeted, so I'm cleaning the tag
<juliank> second one is too
<vorlon> second is also targeted-
<vorlon> ok
<vorlon> done
<juliank> #topic Team proposed-migration report
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | <wxl> be nice | Weekly Ubuntu Foundations team Meeting | Current topic: Team proposed-migration report
<juliank> #link http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-archive/proposed-migration/update_excuses_by_team.html#foundations-bugs
<juliank> Hmm, bunch of armhf-only failures
<vorlon> pretty much all new contents vs last week, which is good
<vorlon> I assume waveform hasn't made headway on fribidi because he's been occupied with rpibidi
<waveform> vorlon, afraid so
<vorlon> automake-1.16, bdmurray did some investigation, didn't get it sorted before travel; I think realistically that's going to sit until next week
<vorlon> p11-kit is entangled with libffi which was blocked by glib2.0 which was waiting on resolution of test regressions
<vorlon> I'll push on that a little more this week
<vorlon> doko: pillow was yours, the binaries are sorted and now it's blocked by scipy autopkgtest failures; will you continue on with that?
<doko> yes, looking at scipy upstream
<vorlon> netplan.io has autopkgtest regressions with new network-manager, but I can't tell that it's not a NM regression; I think we should leave this to the NM uploader for now
<rbalint> vorlon, i can take fribidi if waveform is busy with rpi
<vorlon> apport is a testsuite regression due to /usr/bin/python disappearance.  tdaitx is TIL but is out this week.  anyone want to look at that?
<vorlon> waveform: ^^ you ok to pass that one on?
<doko> how do you see that?
<vorlon> doko: which one, apport?
<doko> yes
<waveform> vorlon, rbalint - sure - got my hands full debugging pi-core-18 not booting at the moment
<rbalint> waveform, vorlon ok, taking fribidi then
<vorlon> doko: ERROR:Q test_interactive [...] FileNotFoundError: [Errno 2] No such file or directory: 'python': 'python'
<doko> I can look at apport, but if you see how it's calling python ...
<doko> ok
<vorlon> https://objectstorage.prodstack4-5.canonical.com/v1/AUTH_77e2ada1e7a84929a74ba3b87153c0ac/autopkgtest-focal/focal/amd64/a/apport/20200116_201044_da64d@/log.gz
<juliank> I can take apport too
<vorlon> juliank, rbalint: thanks
<vorlon> a bunch of failing tests blocking pygobject
<vorlon> I had started looking at these, I'll follow through and see what's what
<doko> all the packages blocking pygobject can be given back with the correct triggers
<vorlon> ok, then I shall :)
<doko> all-proposed works, but currently not on arm64
<vorlon> sphinx/armhf blocking webkit2gtk, someone want to look?
<vorlon> ubuntu-release-upgrader/armhf also blocking webkit2gtk
<vorlon> so those are a pair, if someone wants to take
<juliank> python-sphinx certainly is a python2 unsat situation
<vorlon> sil2100: ^^ do you want these?
<juliank> Broken autopkgtest-satdep:armhf Depends on python-whoosh:armhf < none @un H >
<sil2100> I can look at u-r-u
<sil2100> I'm afrait to pick too much with the .4 on the way
<juliank> python-sphinx probably needs to be removed?
<juliank> but can't
<juliank> or whoosh reintroduced?
<sil2100> vorlon: I guess give them to me for now
<sil2100> I'll do my best to look!
<vorlon> juliank: we don't reintroduce python2 modules for test deps.  if it's reproducible in the release pocket due to removal, we badtest
<juliank> ah ok
<vorlon> s390-tools is involved in a net-snmp transition; probably not the top priority to sort out just right now
<vorlon> openjdk-lts is the i386 autopkgtest regression, which I'm kinda working on, I'll push patches somewhere
<doko> server team is looking at that transition
<vorlon> gobject-introspection seems to be the same kind of problem as pygobject, so I'll look at those also
<vorlon> someone want to look at skiboot's missing build?
<vorlon> doko: are you driving python3.7 and python3.8?
<rbalint> taking skiboot
<vorlon> rbalint: thanks
<vorlon> and then I think we'll stop there, people can pick up from the rest if they have capacity
<juliank> sil2100: python-sphinx just needs retrying it seems, I just retried it
<sil2100> juliank: thanks
<juliank> #topic AOB
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | <wxl> be nice | Weekly Ubuntu Foundations team Meeting | Current topic: AOB
<juliank> anyone?
<doko> LP: #1860601
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1860601 in openblas (Ubuntu) "openblas: causes autopkgtest failure in hypre armhf" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1860601
<doko> last package blocking the python removal
<sil2100> Yeah, so I still need to comment on that one, but I'd like someone more experienced form the release team to do a final call
<vorlon> a final call on what?
<sil2100> Since this looks like a real regression from new openblas, at least regressing the test suite for hypre
<sil2100> It worries me that it's not reproducible locally when tried
<vorlon> sure
<sil2100> So it feels to me like this failure could be hinted, but on the other hand the same failure doesn't happen with the old openblas
<juliank> Oh, I mean I guess I could investigate that on the cloud itself
<sil2100> s/failure/hang/
<vorlon> juliank: do you want to dig in and report back, then?
<sil2100> (since it's a timeout)
<juliank> yes
<sil2100> juliank: thank you
<juliank> I'll go dig a bit
<juliank> Let me create a card for it so I don't forget it
<rbalint> sil2100, maybe focal armhf lxd on focal arm64 host is not similar enough to our armhf infra
<doko> I set a block-proposed bug on the python-defaults transition anyway.  anything else that could break by this migration?
<doko> and bzr in focal is now called breezy
<juliank> that one was fun
<doko> vorlon: what is needed for 3.8?
<doko> 3.7 has the gyoto and freecad issues. that's where you stopped
<vorlon> doko: not sure, python3.8 makes a number of packages uninstallable according to update_output
<vorlon> is it entangled with libffi?
<doko> yes
<vorlon> it is
<doko> get the gobject stuff sorted out
<vorlon> so yeah, glib2.0 etc
<juliank> Are we done?
<vorlon> I think so :)
<doko> so gyoto and freecad, anyone wants to look?
<vorlon> ah, that's why I asked if you were driving python3.7
<vorlon> I don't have capacity
<doko> ohh, and gdal needs sorting
<juliank> I might have a look at gyoto and freecard
<doko> \o/
<juliank> doko: what's gdal?
<doko> transition
<juliank> ah in universe
<doko> transitions don't care about main/universe
<juliank> yeah, but I did not find it on the list :)
<juliank> I'll dig into that a bit too I guess
<juliank> Anything else?
<juliank> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | <wxl> be nice
<meetingology> Meeting ended Thu Jan 23 16:51:21 2020 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2020/ubuntu-meeting.2020-01-23-16.05.moin.txt
<vorlon> juliank: thanks!
<rbalint> o/
