#ubuntu-doc 2005-03-28
<drasko> hi all. I have one not so imporartant question. Why was moinmoin selected for the official Ubuntu wiki, and not some other (twiki?) - why do you find it best?
<drasko> important
<mdke> not sure
<mdke> but someone said it was simple and easy to use
<mdke> drasko, you don't like it?
<drasko> mdke, well, I like it, no doubt. But I was yust wondering since I found out there are so manny wikis.
<mdke> hmm
<mdke> yeah
<mdke> there are 4 markups even on our wiki
<mdke> but imo moin is easier to use than the others
<drasko> One else things that cross my mind now is strong inssisting on pyton in Ubuntu in general, so that could be the part of the answer as well...
<mdke> how come?
<mdke> is it python based?
<drasko> yes.
<mdke> aha
<mdke> that may be part of the reason then
<drasko> it seems to be advanced version of pikipiki -- guess where te name comes from :)
<mdke> ?
<drasko> just kidding.. python, of course. Btw, moinmoin is supposed to mean "good day" in german.
<mdke> oh i c
<mdke> morgan?
<drasko> Frmo the site: "MoinMoin" is a common German slang expression, "Moin" meaning "Good (Day)", and "MoinMoin" being an emphasis, i.e. "A Very Good Day". The name was obviously choosen for its WikiWikiNess.
<drasko> :)
<mdke> heh
<mdke> drasko, say drasko, i'm playing with a new page
<mdke> if you wanna give it some ideas then that would be cool
<mdke> http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/TestingNewFrontPage
<mdke> i gotta go to bed now
<mdke> good night
<drasko> nite all
<jjesse> doh i left this open all night
<jjesse> i'm now back :)
<jjesse> slow day here :)
<Burgundavia> hey
<Burgundavia> usually slow in here
<jjesse> hello burgundavia 
<jjesse> grin froud and i had quite an active discussion yesterday
<Burgundavia> what abouts
<jjesse> he taught me how to work w/ docbook and how to svn
<mdke> good evening all
<Burgundavia> hello
<Burgundavia> but it would be morning for me
<mdke> hi corey
<mdke> morning :)
<mdke> how are you?
<Burgundavia> not bad
<mdke> gd
<mdke> ciao enrico 
<enrico> mdke: ciao!
<mdke> hows it goin?
<enrico> not much time to spend online
<mdke> :(
<Burgundavia> salut enrico
<enrico> Burgundavia: hi!
<mdke> enrico, you know who has write access to the static part of the website?
<enrico> should be everyone, except for key things like CoC
<mdke> hmm
<mdke> as in edit access?
<mdke> not me
<mdke> http://www.ubuntulinux.org/support/local needs a link correcting, and the italian section needs link changes. Who can i approach?
<enrico> mdke: send a mail to the list
<mdke> ok
#ubuntu-doc 2005-03-29
<mdke> hello SapoDriLo 
<sladen> http://www.ubuntulinux.org/ubuntu/releases/ needs updating with name of Hoary+1
<mdke> sladen, i will post it to the list if you like, I've just done one similar
<mdke> hi btw
<mdke> sladen, is that ok?
<mdke> have done it anyway
<mdke> wb
<Burgundavia> hmm
<mdke> sup?
<Burgundavia> not much
<Burgundavia> packaging games for universe
<mdke> oh cool
<mdke> didn't know you worked on universe too
<mdke> great stuff
<Burgundavia> just beginning
<mdke> nice
<froud> African Greetings
<jeffsch> hello Mr. froud
<jeffsch> how are you today?
<jsgotangco> hello!
* froud just woke up
<froud> morning all
<jsgotangco> its almost 2pm here :)
<froud> 07:45
<jeffsch> and 10pm here
* froud sips at coffee and wonders what to do today
* jeffsch sips at coffee and wonders what he did today
* jsgotangco sips at coffee and wonders what he will do later
<froud> first three commits
<froud> :-)
* froud looks around the room as if to challenge people on his most excellent commit count this morning
<jeffsch> hmmm... I got some catchin up to do 
<jeffsch> I got some random text i could commit :-)
<froud> Has the BitTorrent thng been done yet?
<froud> jeffsch: r you still gonna send me a patch on the update-manager
* froud has a sneaky feel jeffsch forgot
<jeffsch> no I didn't forget, just swamped. You will get something after weekend
<jeffsch> I have a question about that tho...
* froud sighs a sigh of relief
<froud> yep shoot away
<jeffsch> In section 3, Performing Updates
<jeffsch> It says it checks for updates once a day
<jeffsch> this has not been my experience
<jeffsch> will it do that on final release?
<froud> Hmmm, no it should do that now. The default setting is once a day. It does so on my system
<jsgotangco> blah need to restart X
<jeffsch> I think I see.... If it is running 24/7 then it checks for updates once a day
<froud> could be, perhaps you need to talk to mvo about it
<jeffsch> I only open it every couple of days. there isn't a daemon in the background?
<froud> no I      think it checks on boot and even when update-manager is not running
<jeffsch> mvo is Michiel Sikkes?
<froud> morning enrico 
<enrico> froud: morning!
<jeffsch> hi enrico
<froud> enrico: checkout http://www.inwords.co.za/kubuntu/inst/desktop-install.html
* froud starts brainwashing everyone to install kubuntu
<enrico> Oh cute!
<froud> you like Kongi
<enrico> I like the logo a lot
<froud> this guy does them http://www.kulma.org/linux/kde/kone.php?categ=kubuntu
<enrico> froud: s/vis-a-verse/vice-versa/
<enrico> Oh those logos are really cute!
<froud> some to KDE, it's warm in here and if you find otherwise, let us know :-)
<jeffsch> I here KDE is faster than GNOME. True?
<jeffsch> s/here/hear
* enrico doesn't know
* enrico knows froud will say yes, though ;)
<jeffsch> when I bought my computer, I asked the salesman "is it quiet?"
<jeffsch> he said "yes"
<jeffsch> it sounds like a jet engine
<enrico> maybe the salesman was used to seel server racks
<enrico> those turbines with 6 SCSI harddrives, 4 CPUs and 3 fans per hardrive and 2 per CPU
<enrico> First time I turned on one of those, I jumped back
<froud> enrico: in what sentence?
<jeffsch> did you glue some wings on it and fly away?
<enrico> froud: "Switching Desktops", end of first paragraph
<enrico> jeffsch:  :)
<enrico> jeffsch: you could surely use it to dry your hair
* enrico notices that User's Guide doesn't build anymore
<enrico> That is blocking updates on the HTML preview
<froud> ok, will see
<froud> I always thought it was vis-a-verse
<enrico> froud: I'm quite sure of that: I took 8 years of French and 5 of Latin :)
<froud> hmmm ok
<jeffsch> enrico is right. I just looked it up
<enrico> (Italian "lyceum" high schools have compulsory latin classes)
<froud> ok done
<enrico> (and studying latin quite sucks)
<froud> must go see ya
<jeffsch> encrico: user guide problem is in main.xml
<jeffsch> I think it's because it has docbook 4.1.2, but that's just a guess
<enrico> shouldn't everything have DB 4.1.2 now?
<jeffsch> yes... <part> cannot have id attribute in 4.1.2
<enrico> The error I get is this:
<enrico> warning: failed to load external entity "/usr/share/xml/docbook/stylesheet/nwalsh/current/html/profile-chunk.xsl"
<enrico> compilation error: file libs/html-cust.xsl line 6 element import
<enrico> xsl:import : unable to load /usr/share/xml/docbook/stylesheet/nwalsh/current/html/profile-chunk.xsl
<enrico> doesn't seem to complain about extra attributes: just about problems loading things
<jeffsch> when I run validate.sh i get this:
<jeffsch> about/main.xml:9: element part: validity error : No declaration for attribute base of element part
<jeffsch> I remember reading somewhere that one of the big additions to DocBook 4.3 was id attribute to most tags
<jeffsch> see http://www.docbook.org/tdg/en/html/part.html
<jeffsch> only status and label attributes are ok
<enrico> jeffsch: do you know how to fix it?
<jeffsch> one of two ways:
<jeffsch> remove id attribute, or
<jeffsch> change main.xml to DocBook 4.3
<jeffsch> both options may break other things
<jeffsch> I don't know enough about it to go an make a change
<jeffsch> have to look in svn change log. not my forte.
<enrico> ok.  We can wait for froud maybe
<jeffsch> whew! the easy way out! I likes it! :-)
<enrico> I can have a look at it later, but atm I'm busy on another job...
<jeffsch> i will play with viewing svn change logs
<jeffsch> maybe going back to docbook 4.3 is ok for main.xml
<enrico> uhm.. yes, actually
<enrico> we're not shipping that with Hoary
<enrico> good idea
<jeffsch> enrico: changing to 4.3 didn't work, nor did removing id attribute
<jeffsch> my guesses didn't work. (unless i did something wrong)
<jeffsch> we will have to wait for someone who knows what they're doing
<jeffsch> time for bed. see ya
<jeffsch> afk
<enrico> jeffsch: sweet dreams!
<mdke> hello all
<sladen> mdke: please, do, yes.  that's why I posted it here---you guys know what to do with it!  :)
<mdke> sladen, lol
<mdke> sladen, i posted before going to bed but no reply yet i'm afriad
<mdke> someone will sort it
<froud> enrico: checkout http://www.kubuntu.org.uk/documentation.php
<froud> its one version behind my version, but looks cool :-)
<mdke> hi froud 
<froud> hey
<froud> howzit?
<mdke> good thanks
<mdke> yourself?
<froud> cooking with gas!
<mdke> again?
<mdke> but isn't it normal to cook with gas?
<enrico> Cute layout!
<mdke> yeah sexy menu bar
<mdke> being served off a kubuntu machine?
<mdke> wow
<froud> better than electricity :-)
<mdke> froud, yeah indeed, as long as you light the gas
<froud> kawabunga dude
<mdke> it sounds to me like you've been doing too much hacking
<mdke> :p
<mdke> morning enrico 
<enrico> morning
* froud is working on userguide problem
* mdke is wiki gardening
<mdke> i'm getting a bad back from this gardening
* froud hates getting hands dirty and sand under nails
<froud> Hmmm yes the xml:base problem
<froud> < DTD 4.3 has no support for XML based
<froud> enrico: I can add it or we can go DTD4.3
<froud> enrico: but then we have problems with Scrollkeeper
<froud> which was why we roled back to 4.12
<enrico> froud: we don't need scrollkeeper for the User's Guide anyway
<froud> 4.1.2
<froud> no only if it will be in Yelp
<froud> if it is under any browser we are ok
<froud> thinking ... you'e right
<froud> but how to get the doc into yelp if its not in scrollkeeper
<enrico> froud: we don't need yelp for the User's Guide anyway
<enrico> It's not shipping with Hoary; then we'll have 6 months to fix yelp+scrollkeeper or to decide on a different system
<froud> OK I will go up to 4.3 then
<froud> 4.3 is a better version
<froud> Of course I would lik eto try 5.0 RelexNG ;-)
* froud has horns growing on top of his head
<mdke> hmm
<mdke> we need to watch him
<froud> Hey comes Hell Boy
<froud> here
<mdke> did anyone do those website amendments?
<froud> enrico: done
<froud> anything else not building
<froud> enrico: trickie an dI made changes to localtion of release notes. You will need to update packaging stuff
<enrico> ok
<enrico> I've seen the mails going around
<froud> cool
<enrico> Ill get to it ASAP
<enrico> uhm...
<enrico> $ make
<enrico> Building the Ubuntu User Guide . . .
<enrico> mkdir -p build/userguide/
<enrico> /usr/bin/xsltproc --xinclude --stringparam base.dir build/userguide/ libs/html-cust.xsl userguide/usersguide.xml
<enrico> warning: failed to load external entity "/usr/share/xml/docbook/stylesheet/nwalsh/current/html/profile-chunk.xsl"
<enrico> compilation error: file libs/html-cust.xsl line 6 element import
<enrico> xsl:import : unable to load /usr/share/xml/docbook/stylesheet/nwalsh/current/html/profile-chunk.xsl
<enrico> make: *** [ug]  Error 5
<enrico> the correct link seems to have no "current" on it
<froud> change that path in html-cust...xsl
<enrico> should I commit that change?
<froud> yes uncommnet the one and comment the other
<enrico> gablarg
<froud> Corey and I have xsl's installed in the *correct* locations
<froud> Corey committed the change
<enrico> so they fixed ubuntu but still not Debian?
<froud> he he
<froud> that's right
<enrico> baaad
<froud> what can say
<froud> so we work around this problem like this until it is resolved
<enrico> now other problem
<enrico> XML_CATALOG_FILES points to 4.1.2
<enrico> I need to make it point to 4.3 for the UG
<enrico> but then it screws up the rest
* froud humms, thinking I told you yelp was a bad idea ;-) and the horns grow longer
<enrico> can that env var have more than one catalog on it?
<froud> try it and see
<enrico> they SHOULD work, but they DON'T because xsltproc is buggy
<enrico> that is, the var would support more than one, but it's badly implemented
* enrico farts
<froud> enrico: don't fart and waste it when you can birp and taste it
<mdke> whoa
<mdke> how rude!
<mdke> good for the ozone tho
<froud> baked beans with pasta for lunch?
<enrico> bugs
<enrico> I've just been eating too many bugs
<mdke> italians don't eat baked beans!
<mdke> they have a more advanced culinary culture
<enrico> rather more advanced, yes :)
* enrico had baked beans in UK
<mdke> although all my italian friends liked baked beans when they visited me
<enrico> I still have nightmares
<mdke> LOL
<enrico> I'm generally against ketchup
<mdke> froud, see what I mean?
<froud> yeah, enrico needs an enema
<mdke> whoa
* mdke backs away
<enrico> sugar in tomato sauce can exist to balance the acidity of tomatoes, but should not be perceivable
<mdke> lol
<froud> now that's Italian thinking
<mdke> so true
<mdke> enrico, you have to send me food packages
<mdke> i'll send you baked beans and ketchup in return
<enrico> A bit of sugar is suggested when you make tomato sauce for pasta and you're not going to use it right away
<mdke> yeah
<enrico> as the sauce would build up acidity
<enrico> mdke: ok!  I'll give the beans to my gw, who lived in York for 4 years
<mdke> gw?
<enrico> gf
<mdke> ah cool
<mdke> could have been girl-wife
<mdke> enrico, its not only food i want
<Kinnison> mdke: as opposed to man-wife?
<mdke> Kinnison, hi
<mdke> enrico, i also want some detergente per lavatrice marsiglia
<enrico> mdke: :)
<mdke> a massive gap in the english market
<enrico> mdke: http://lento.uncasino.it/enrico/store/ricette.zip
<enrico> mdke: have fun! :)
<mdke> ok
<mdke> .zip?
<enrico> yes
* mdke shakes head
<mdke> will check it out :)
<mdke> enrico, where do you live again? roma?
<enrico> It's an historical archive
<enrico> 4000 kitchen recipes
<enrico> Bologna
<mdke> wow
<mdke> oh yes
<mdke> when are we gonna get the default markup on the wiki set to moin?
<enrico> It's been in WikiWishlist for quite some time :(
<mdke> is it difficult to do?
<mdke> loads of the non moin pages are really simple user pages which are just a couple of lines, so they are easy to convert, but it would be cooler if they were in moin already
<enrico> you should try to ping sm on that
<mdke> i'm come across a couple which were written in moin, but not saved in it
<mdke> enrico, i will but i think he is pretty busy atm
<mdke> enrico, i'll try him this evening
<mdke> right i'm off
<mdke> cyall later
<enrico> mdke: bye!
<mdke> enrico, that is a great cookbook ty
<enrico> no problem!
<enrico> It's one of the best I've ever found
<enrico> and it's been compiled by people over Fidonet first, and then Internet
<enrico> The Free Cookbook!
<mdke> i see
<mdke> opensource cooking
<mdke> awesome
<enrico> mdke: I went through the Wiki subscription mails: you're doing an impressive work!!
<mdke> ty
<mdke> the wiki is going nicely: I've noticed lots of pages being added. The French and Italian sections are building up too
<mdke> we just need to sort out a better structure
<mdke> hoary +1 has a wonderful name
<mdke> and grumpy is the perfect name for a dev release
<mdke> ;)
<enrico> When I had more time for it, I was considering contacting some of the most active wiki contributors to coordinate a bit together
<mdke> its an idea
<enrico> At the ubuntuconf we hacked together a script that would make stats over the mails coming from the wiki subscriptions
<enrico> I can send it to you
<mdke> sure
<mdke> i'm not subscribed to the whole wiki, but i can do
<enrico> BTW, here's another great source of recipes: http://www.liberliber.it/biblioteca/a/artusi/
<mdke> i just follow the rss on new pages
<enrico> If you use procmail you can do it (else it's quite some mails getting in)
<mdke> i'm not great with mail
<mdke> i just use evolution and filters
<enrico> That book is more than one century old.  Copyright expired :)
<enrico> ah, ok.
<mdke> heh
<mdke> in the uk its not so easy to cook well
<mdke> everything is very expensive
<mdke> parmisan = 30 euri /kilo
<Kinnison> mdke: Depends where you are
<mdke> Kinnison, well in major supermarkets
<mdke> you a brit too?
<enrico> gotta go
<Kinnison> mdke: I live in Cambridgeshire
<mdke> yay
<mdke> Kinnison, i haven't been there, nice?
<Kinnison> mdke: Parmesan from Asda is apparently about 2.50UKP per kilo
<mdke> i have a suspicion that isn't parmisan
<Kinnison> Quite possibly not :-)
<mdke> made out of people's feet
<mdke> Kinnison, oh i c that page
<mdke> it says per kilo but it means per pack
<Kinnison> heh
<Kinnison> shoddy reporting
<mdke> cheeky bastards
<mdke> so how is cambridgeshire?
* Kinnison looks out of the window
<mdke> heh
<Kinnison> sunny; a few fluffy clouds, birds singing
<mdke> its glorious here today
<mdke> about 18 degrees more than last week
<mdke> froud, ping
<mdke> nm
<Kinnison> burger! You're a machine
<mdke> heh
<Kinnison> mdke: Debian-UK meet tomorrow in Cambridge if you fancy popping up and saying "Boo!"
<Kinnison> I and a couple of other Ubuntu related peeps will be there too
<froud> mdke: sorry yes
<mdke> froud, np resolved, the Kubuntu wiki page was accidentally deleted but whoever it was has now reinstated it
<mdke> Kinnison, i would like to but can't make it, i have exams next week
* Kinnison nods
<froud> mdke: yes I think Riddle is hack on it
<mdke> see the comment at the bottom? it was the guy who posted that who accidentally deleted the page. no harm done tho
<mdke> oh the comment's gone now too
<mdke> shame
<mdke> ;)
<mdke> hi jjesse 
<jjesse> hiya mdke
<mdke> mmmm
<mdke> simpsons...
<mdke> anyone around?
<Burgundavia> not really
<mdke> hi corey
#ubuntu-doc 2005-03-30
<sm> hi 
<mdke> howdy pardner
<mdke> sm, your call if you wanna try and test the zopeedit thing
<mdke> if you're busy, np
<sm> oh I forgot.. thanks
<mdke> seriously np
<sm> yes, can you try right now on ubuntu wiki TestPage
<mdke> it works on testpage last time i checked
<mdke> but not on other
<mdke> s
<sm> ok.. any page where it doesnt work.. show me
<mdke> ok hang on
<mdke> hmm
<mdke> just worked on MatthewEast
<mdke> lol
<mdke> dammit
<mdke> just worked on ItalianDocumentation
<sm> drat :)
<mdke> well
<mdke> its good news
<mdke> :)
<mdke> you've put a curse on me tho
<mdke> worked on DocumentationArea
<sm> yay.. let me see
<mdke> i've reverted em
<mdke> could it be related to the amount of time spent on editing? these have been very brief of course
<mdke> its definitely working now
<mdke> tried also on GettingUbuntu
<sm> shouldn't be
<sm> ubuntu has squid caching things, but it's been reliable for me
<sm> DocumentationArea's purpose now is the starting point for user docs, am I right
<mdke> hmm
<mdke> sm, I haven't changed it
<mdke> but yeah i guess so
<mdke> i've started some testing pages for exploring a cleaner structure pursuant to that thread on the list that you and Mary were commenting on
<mdke> https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/IdeasForNewFrontPageStructure
<sm> good stuff
<mdke> hmm
<mdke> feeeeeedback
<sm> I think renaming DocumentationArea to UserDocumentation would be a good step
<mdke> would you write it on that page pls? also any further categories of documentation that might be good subcategories for that page
<mdke> that is a good idea i think
<mdke> got the structured text articles down into double figures today ;)
<mdke> nothing better than watching james bond on tv and converting wiki pages to moinmoin
<sm> I wrote it on the list already
<mdke> sm, thanks :)
<sm> I could just do it, that would be clear eh :)
<mdke> i don't mind doing it
<sm> this is a wiki.. it's just waiting for someone to feel strongly enough :)
<sm> I should do it and take the heat :)
<mdke> oh the rename
<mdke> yeah its not a problem
<mdke> aren't you the wikimaster anyhow?
<sm> I'm one of the volunteers with admin access.. but no special authority over anything
<mdke> hmm
<sm> changing.. done
<mdke> what is NewFrontPage?
<sm> at least I try not exercise any 
* mdke looks
<mdke> i never saw that page before
<sm> wikimaster.. WikiMaster.. MasterOfWiki.. hmm, hmm..
<mdke> damn i can't believe i didn't see that page
<sm> I 've seen it
<sm> can't remember if it's really the old page
<sm> I think it is
<mdke> its better than the current one :p
<sm> it's the old new old front page
<mdke> lol
<sm> that happens sometimes :)
<mdke> hmm
<mdke> whoa
<sm> I like those compact layouts.. the simple one was nice
<mdke> SimpleFrontPage?
<mdke> its a bit "html"
<mdke> a bit last summer
<sm> more efficient for a reader
<mdke> yeah i agree
<sm> but not as simple to edit.. not sure how to do it in moin actually
<mdke> not sure it can be done
<sm> there's tables.. I expect so
<mdke> html is a pain in the ass to edit except with zopeedit ;)
<sm> yeah.. in special cases it can be worth it I think
<sm> since the alternative is a less useful page
<mdke> but it is a good idea in principle, because then things can be split off into subpages
<mdke> a FrontPage with 5 or 6 links would be the way forward i think. DOCS, WIKI, TEAMS, COMMUNITY, POLICY etc
<mdke> you had to amend links to rename that doc did you?
<mdke> i thought they go automatically
<sm> they usually do.. and did this time
<sm> but I was fooled for a bit due to caching
<sm> had to shift reload
<mdke> hmm
<mdke> saw you deep in the polish and portugese docs ;)
<sm> that was zwiki
<mdke> no way?
<mdke> cool
<sm> way :)
<mdke> oh yeah
<mdke> you would have had to be really fast
<mdke> well you still get the credit
<sm> we've been keeping the FrontPage mostly free of subtopics.. I think I'll reparent that latest bunch away
<mdke> sure
<mdke> i'm doing that fairly often
<sm> cool
<mdke> my favourite is parenting userpages
<mdke> :(
<sm> just putting them at top level.. I'm sure there's a better place
<mdke> how do you do that?
<sm> drat this cache
<mdke> yeah
<sm> I switch to full mode in the zwiki skin (plone skin works too); open each immediate child in a new tab; click reparent button at bottom of each
<mdke> so reparent without any content in the box?
<sm> right, puts them at the top
<mdke> do you get the one where you log in and it gives you "page not found" and refers you to related links
<mdke> love it
<sm> yeah, that sucks
* sm looks at that
<mdke> i filed a bug today actually on that, because it was annoying me so much
<mdke> hi hypatia 
<hypatia> hi
<mdke> pleased to meet you
<mdke> <- matt
<mdke> YAY
<mdke> feedback on the wiki structure page
<mdke> what a star
<sm> mdke: can you point me that login bug ? I have search fatigue
<sm> oh was it on WikiWishlist ?
<mdke> no hang on
<mdke> sm 7839
<sm> thanks
* hypatia = mary
<hypatia> I post to the lists occasionally :)
<mdke> hi :)
<sm> hi mary!
<sm> <- simon
<mdke> this is a great moment
<mdke> 3 great minds
<mdke> in the same place
<mdke> *coughs*
<mdke> <-- bed
<mdke> bye all
<sm> can't solve it right now.. night all
* froud grinds his teeth a customer asked to write an app in VB.
<froud> How to develop and build VB apps on Linux. I am darned if I am gonna work on Windoze just for this.
<Burgundavia> uh right
<Burgundavia> break out the bats
<froud> Burgundavia: hello
<froud> Hmmm, musing over KBasic
<froud> http://www.kbasic.de
<froud> Do you know anything about it
<froud> Burgundavia: did you get to the screen capt of BitTorrent
<Burgundavia> nope
<Burgundavia> will get one now
<froud> Burgundavia: thanks
* froud is like totally confused by the kbasic web site
<froud> penguins and kongi everywhere, but no nix download
<froud> ah I get it
<froud> he only has a preview ready for windows
<Burgundavia> that website is ouch
<Burgundavia> but a cool idea
<Burgundavia> I remember running into the line limit on an apple ] [ with basic
<Burgundavia> 64k lines I think
<Burgundavia> me and a friend
<froud> Burgundavia: thanks for that patch
<Burgundavia> totally forgot about it
<Burgundavia> I should do some looking at the release notes and quickguide tomorrow
<froud> hapens, I have made a review and marked status complete
<froud> What about User or Admin Guide
<froud> yeah the web site in eeihna
<froud> hey call more time, howzit maskie 
<froud> maskie: you got any idea how to write VB6 on Linux
<Burgundavia> you can do VB.Net on *nix, but VB6?
<Burgundavia> as an aside, ms just announced that is not supported VB6 anymore
<froud> Yeah, but that is the spec I have
<froud> bsides I dont think VB6 will dies that fast
<froud> too many programmers
<Burgundavia> I don't think so either
<Burgundavia> This is a case of ms trying to push something that most people don't want
<Burgundavia> big surprise
<froud> yeah normally works that way
<Burgundavia> http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story2&u=/infoworld/20050311/tc_infoworld/57636
<froud> Oh well let's hope they will piss off enough ms vb devs so they move to Linux :-)
<Burgundavia> For the really adventurous, try XBasic, a BASIC compiler that runs under both Windows and Linux
<Burgundavia> from http://www.computerbooksonline.com/program/vb6dchap.htm
<Burgundavia> http://sourceforge.net/projects/vb4linux/
<Burgundavia> that is what I grabbed in about 3 secs
<froud> yes I saw xbasic
<Burgundavia> I doubt any of them are actually useful
<froud> from vb4linux "So far, there are currently 3 developers for the VB4Linux project. We'll probably begin in about a week or so... Still looking for more developers!"
<Burgundavia> ouch
<Burgundavia> there seems to be a commercial app called REALBasic that seems to do what you need, on the outset
<Burgundavia> only $400 USD
<Burgundavia> I'll take 3
<Burgundavia> and one for the dog
<froud> Yes, and I want it open
<froud> :-(
<froud> seems like a simple thing
<Burgundavia> can you convince the client to use python or something else?
<froud> No he is a ms preacher ;-)
<froud> it's ms or nothing
<froud> he wants the source
<Burgundavia> so why does it need to run on linux?
<Burgundavia> wait a sec
<froud> he does not
<froud> he needs it on windows
<Burgundavia> he wants the source and he wants ms?
<froud> yes, but he pays handsomely for the src
* froud has to do these types of jobs to fund FOSS development
<Burgundavia> can you sell him on the wonders of Ironpython and .Net then?
<Burgundavia> the ironpython dev is a microsoftie
<froud> He he, he wants it VB because it will integrate in a much bigger system
<Burgundavia> well, looks like someone gets to use xp then
<froud> you know ERP system
<Burgundavia> nope
<froud> no his system is an ERP
* froud smiles at his inbox, six modules for ICDL released as free
<froud> now that's the kinda projects I want more of :-)
<Burgundavia> what is ICDL?
<froud> Today I must find a way to automate porting this stuff to Docbook
<froud> International Computer Drivers License
<froud> The Shuttleworth Foundation is releasing it as a free and open project under CC-BY-SA 2.0
<froud> very cool
<Burgundavia> ah, wouldn't be nice to have that kind of money
<Burgundavia> move worlds with it
<cc> froud: a CC-By-SA ICDL ?
<froud> He he they have a plan
<froud> cc: yes
<cc> froud: where is it ?
<Burgundavia> froud: "The Synaptic package manager also now includes support to upgrade your Ubuntu Distribution." from the release notes
<Burgundavia> what does this mean exactly?
<Burgundavia> is this update warty-->hoary?
<froud> cc: not yet released I have to d osome spade work over the netx few months
<froud> Burgundavia: yes
<froud> Burgundavia: works well too
<cc> froud: spade work?
<cc> i.e. you're writing it ?
<froud> cc: no it is already written, I need to port it to docbook, setup the web and do the repos stuff etc
<cc> froud: oh, is there a chance i can take a gander at it ?
<froud> cc: when it is released it will be free for all to gander
<Burgundavia> froud: what is status of the release notes? Can I change to wording of that sentence to make a little clearer?
<froud> Burgundavia: sure
<Burgundavia> froud: ok
<froud> cc: you have an interest in ICDL?
<cc> froud: so it isn't now, ok, thanks
<cc> froud: yes, i made a similar proposal before (not to canonical, but linux-aus)
<froud> cc: the icdl has written their materials and with tsf will release it free
<froud> cc: this is great news
<cc> froud: but they're not OSS based
<cc> the ICDL materials are windoze based
<froud> cc: no but they are comming over
<froud> cc: this is ICDL using OOo
<cc> froud: oh, that is really interesting and good to note
<cc> rocking.
<cc> i had interet to base it off stuf fi did before
<froud> good news here in Africa
<cc> at http://training.bytebot.net
<froud> he he lol you have that bookmarked too
<cc> no, thats at the top of my head
<cc> thats my work :P
<froud> what's your work?
<cc> the stuff at training.bytebot.net
<cc> the OOo and Linux stuff. old but mine
<froud> really
<froud> cool dude
<froud> you may be interested then in the LearnLinux project
<froud> http://learnlinux.tsf.org.za
<froud> the doc-team will hopefully be creating an Ubuntu version of it
<froud> the src is already in svn in my branch
<cc> ah, nice
<froud> you game to devel an ubuntu version
<cc> definitely
<cc> which is why i thought of icdl a while ago
<froud> do you have a working copy of the repos
<Burgundavia> froud: I got a couple of errors with the release notes
<cc> no
<Burgundavia> Entity 'distro-rev' not defined
<froud> Burgundavia: he he hold
<Burgundavia> ?
<Burgundavia> it also said that it can't parse global.ent
<froud> no document is valid
<Burgundavia> ok
<froud> did you svn up from the trunk lately
<froud> we moved release notes
<froud> now in releasenotes/
<Burgundavia> yep, synced this morning
<Burgundavia> nothing come by but our stuff since
<froud> Hmm do you have releasenotes/
<froud> cc: learnlinux stuff is in my branch
<Burgundavia> yep
<froud> cc: do you have a working copy of branches/
<froud> Burgundavia: try again
<froud> it validates on my system
<cc> froud: no, but if you point me to instructions, i'll co it now
<froud> and trickie has not reported an problem
<froud> cc: so you have used svn before
<cc> yes
* cc is more a cvs man though
<froud> cc: best thing is to do svn co https://docteam.ubuntu.com/repos
<froud> that will give you tags/ branches/ trunk/ and vendor/
<froud> after Hoary I will merge my branch into trunk/
<Burgundavia> aww crap
<froud> Burgundavia: why
<Burgundavia> after 756, it won't even load
<Burgundavia> /home/rasputin/Ubuntu%20Documentation%20Team/trunk/releasenotes/release-notes.xml:11: parser error : StartTag: invalid element name
<Burgundavia> <<<<<<< .mine
<froud> dude it loads here
<froud> from HEAD
<froud> you have a patch     conflicting
<froud> perhaps you did a commit before doing svn up
<froud> it's only bken in your WC
<Burgundavia> ya, I regrabbed from svn and it works now
<froud> cc: there is over 1400 pages in LearnLinux
<froud> cc: we will need to co-ordinate our effort very well in order to do it
<cc> froud: hmm, sure
<froud> cc: any ideas are welcome
<froud> cc: we dont have to keep it as it is
<froud> cc: the result will be the will of the community
<froud> cc: we will however give credit to the original team
<froud> cc: and add credit of those who contribute
<froud> cc: so structure changes as well as content changes are welcome
<froud> cc: btw there is no desktop stuff in there
<cc> froud: how big is the check out ?
<froud> cc: its all cli
<cc> repos/trunk/images is getting largeish
<froud> cc: yes, but once you have it the rest is easy
<cc> froud: how large is the initial co ?
<froud> no idea
<froud> cc in my wc it is 94.5 MB but that includes management files which take a lot of space. yours should be less
<cc> froud: thanks. makes me feel better ;-)
<froud> cc: scary stuff?
<cc> froud: no, bandwidth is an issue
<cc> i'd prefer to do it from 2am onwards when traffic is free if its really large
<froud> cc: where are you co.za
<cc> froud: australia
<froud> never had bandwidth problems while in au
<froud> bigpond cable is awesome
<cc> we have download quotas/caps
<cc> optus cable is what i'm on 
<froud> yes
<cc> i get 12gb/month
<froud> I had that problem a few times
<cc> and thats not enough when tracking unstable releases
<froud> luck you we get 3gb
<cc> well, yeah, 3gb last time. they recently upgraded us
<froud> so what do you do when you are not working on FOSS
<cc> froud: not much, i'm a foss person
<froud> paid to work by who?
<froud> go on you can say
<froud> we wont hold it against you 
* froud taps the table
<froud> cc: nice smile
<cc> froud: hah
<cc> sorry, was awol for a bit
<cc> be back later, definitely
<froud> ok
<froud> strange how when the hard questions come people always must go
* froud goes off to do some work
<cc> froud: i am unemployed, completely. i get paid by no one. i occasionally do contractual gigs here and there
<cc> froud: and i'm mainly involved in the fedora project; would love to get paid OSS work, definitely
<mdke> tu-it-dev
<mdke> good morning
<Burgundavia> salut
<enrico> hi
<mdke> enrico, i've subscribed to the wiki, how does that script work?
* enrico checks
<enrico> I use it on a Maildir-format mailbox (one file per mail)
<enrico> You cd inside the Maildir and run the script: it prints a line per message, with some stats
<enrico> Then save the output, and run wsaggregate on it
<mdke> enrico, ah i c
<mdke> enrico, it won't work on an mbox
<mdke> ?
<enrico> Uhm, probably not
<mdke> ho capito
<mdke> ping mako
<jsgotangco> greets
* froud looks at amu and Qerub for 1st draft review of document "Using K Network Configuration." Source can be obtain @ https://docteam.ubuntu.com/repos/branches/froud/kubuntu/knetwork-conf For easy reading see http://www.inwords.co.za/kubuntu/knetwork-conf/knetwork-conf.html. Patches and input to sean@inwords.co.za or to ubuntu-doc@lists.ubuntu.com
* froud looking for docteam contributors
<froud> jsgotangco: hello
<jsgotangco> how to start in the docteam?
<froud> jsgotangco: what do you want to do, wiki or Docbook?
<froud> Starting point for all is http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/DocumentationTeam
<jsgotangco> well i have been doing wiki work for sometime
<froud> Do you want to continue or are you looking to learn somethng new
<jsgotangco> well i want to go further
<jsgotangco> something new too
<jsgotangco> :D
<froud> ok, do you know docbook
<froud> it's not a problem if you don't
<jsgotangco> i have no idea
<froud> Ok best thing is to see if you can get through this http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/DocteamStepByStepRepository
<froud> Follow the instructions if you have questions, shout and I will help
<froud> It's easier than it sounds
<jsgotangco> ok ill check it out
<froud> cool, once you have a feel we will get you started on something
<froud> are you using GNOME or KDE
<jsgotangco> im on gnome
<froud> OK running HOARY
<jsgotangco> yeah
<froud> Cool dude
<froud> OK you will also want to subscribe to mailing lists
<froud> http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/ForTheHasty
<froud>  user-list
<froud>     http://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-doc
<froud> commit-list
<froud>     http://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-doc-commits
<jsgotangco> oh cool Ill subscribe then
<jsgotangco> btw
<jsgotangco> i got confirmation for ubuntudownunder
<froud> Cool
<froud> Tools you need to install
<froud> Docbook
<froud> Docbook XSL
<froud> xmllint
<froud> sudo apt-get insstall docbook
<froud> sudo apt-get install docbook-xsl
<froud> sudo apt-get install xsltproc
<jsgotangco> done
<froud> sudo apt-get install libxml2-utils
<froud> Hmm. That should so it for now
<jsgotangco> ok ill try out first that stepbystep link and see if i can manage that
<froud> C c'ing ya ;-)
<froud> welcome to the Docteam BTW
<mdke> hi jsgotangco 
<mdke> welcome
<jsgotangco> thanks thanks
<abelli> ciao
<jsgotangco> well i gotta catch some Zzzzzz
<jsgotangco> later people
#ubuntu-doc 2005-03-31
<mdke> enrico, ping
<enrico> mdke: hi.  Going to bed
<mdke> ok
<froud> African Greetings
<mdke> enrico, ping
<enrico> hi mdke 
<mdke> ciao
<mdke> you remember those changes to the website? i didn't get any reply from the list, who should I ask about them?
<enrico> mako, I think
<mdke> right
<mdke> you doing ok?
<enrico> not too bad
<mdke> :)
<Burgundavia> salut Kinnison 
<mdke> good night!
<abelli> ciao a tutti
#ubuntu-doc 2005-04-01
<sabmoc> anyone awake?
<froud> African Greetings
<Kinnison> froud.
<froud> morning enrico
* froud has been capped by telsum
<froud> Kinnison: hi
<froud> OK, ideas wanted dudes
<Kinnison> What does that mean for you?
<Kinnison> (being capped)
<froud> I have done docs for Ubuntu Update Manager
<froud> Kinnison: yeah Telscum cap the DSL when you pass 3GB
<froud> Kinnison: slllllllllllllllllllllllllooooooooooooooooooooooooooowwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww mooooooooooooooooooooooooooottttttttion
<froud> Now Update Manager has moved to gnome cvs
<froud> problem is I documented it on Ubuntu
<froud> question, how to keep the doc Ubuntu specific and neutral for GNOME
<froud> ouch did anyone get what I just wrote?
<sabmoc> would someone like to help me get started on working with the doc team?
<froud> sabmoc: sure
<sabmoc> ok, let me tell you where and what I am
<froud> OK
<sabmoc> I've read all the wiki pages on the docteam and howtogetstartedblahblahblah. I have used cvs but not svn yet. Dont think that should be too difficult.
<sabmoc> I have read parts of the DocBook guide
<froud> easy stuff
<froud> good
<sabmoc> I would like to learn more DocBook, and help the doc team if I can.
<froud> good
<sabmoc> That is all.
<froud> what would you like to know next
<sabmoc> hmm.. where do I start? Have any tasks that need taskers?
<sabmoc> taskee's?
<froud> well we are about to tag for release
<sabmoc> yes, but I think that a good thing
<froud> so not much writing is happening.
<sabmoc> ah ok
<froud> yes
<froud> however, you should look at the following documents
<sabmoc> This way I will see the breazy release from start to finish
<froud> and see how you can contribute for the next release 
<sabmoc> froud, will I need to actually run the unstable release? 
<froud> look at User Guide, Admin Guide
<froud> are you running Hoary now
<sabmoc> yes, but when breazy comes out I dont plan to switch until it is very near release.
<froud> next release is grumpy, no?
<froud> then comes breazy
<sabmoc> Oh!
<sabmoc> ok, well s/breazy/grumpy/;
<froud> Well same diff
<froud> normally, yes you run the next release from the devel 
<sabmoc> froud, hmm.. 
<froud> however, not everything in those guides will require changes
<froud> to grumpy
<froud> one place to look if you want to stay on hoary is the FAQ Guide
<sabmoc> Im sort of planning to buy another computer, maybe if I do then Ill install grumpy, but otherwise I really need a stable desktop.
<froud> it is currently at warty
<froud> and needs updaating to hoary
<froud> I believe that Corey was gonna look at that
<froud> he is not here now
<froud> however, the last meeting notes will give you an idea
<sabmoc> The notes are posted to the mailing list?
<sabmoc> The notes are posted to the mailing list?
<froud> sorry i may disappear and reappear
<sabmoc> I noticed :)
<froud> my line has been capped
<sabmoc> Thats strange, what does that mean, upload limits?
<froud> I would start looking at all the docs and thinking what I can and want to do
<sabmoc> Ok :)
<froud> Kinnison:  arrrrrg this is what it means for me ;-(
<sabmoc> heh
<sabmoc> poor guy
<Kinnison> froud: Oh dear
* Kinnison recently asked for his service to be upgraded to 2Mbps uncapped
<sabmoc> get a new provider
<froud> poor South Africa
<Kinnison> just waiting for the regrade to complete
<froud> lemme see if I can find a server on which I can get a shell
<froud> sabmoc: in co.za it is all the same
<sabmoc> froud, ok thank you for the information. So basically just read the current documents and wait for the next cycle to begin. I can do that. :)
<sabmoc> froud, that is most unfortunate :(
<froud> whats the command to run bitchx again
<sabmoc> it is `xchat`
<sabmoc> for me, at least..
<froud> sabmoc: yes, you can give patches on the docs I mentioned
<sabmoc> where do I send them?
<sabmoc> let me guess
<sabmoc> as attachments to mailing list?
<froud> yep
<sabmoc> kk
<sabmoc> anything else?
<sabmoc> Actually, thats enough.
<froud> BitchX is one of the most well-known IRC clients for the text console. It originated from ircii. It offers a lot of possibilities and settings.
<sabmoc> froud, thanks goodnight
<froud> aaaarg non of those hosts have bitchx
<froud> sabmoc: my pleasure
<froud> welcome
<froud> to
<froud> the
<froud> docteam
<froud> OK dudes, I cant stand the pain. I will drop in now and then to see you.
<froud> c ya later
<abelli> ciao a tutti
<Kinnison> ciao abelli
<abelli> enrico: ding dong dang
<abelli> Kinnison: hows life treating you??
<Kinnison> abelli: not bad thanks
<Kinnison> abelli: you?
<abelli> everything's ok thank u.
<jsgotangco> hello hello
<abelli> ciao
<jsgotangco> ciao
<jsgotangco> how long does the initial doc source take to dl?
<abelli> jsgotangco: mmmm no idea sorry.
<jsgotangco> ahh k
<abelli> jsgotangco: i think you better  ask enrico.
<jsgotangco> i will i'm just getting my feet wet in docbook at the moment
<abelli> :)
<jsgotangco> hmmm
<abelli> what?
<jsgotangco> are wiki issues also discussed here?
<abelli> i think so, yes.
<jsgotangco> well it seems my wiki entry is deleted?
<abelli> huh.
<abelli> enrico is the team secretary... you should ask him.
<jsgotangco> enrico u there?
<jsgotangco> what the hell
<jsgotangco> someone deleted my wiki
<jsgotangco> grr
<mdke> hi all
<Burgundavia> salut
<Kinnison> Evening burger
<mdke> hi Burgundavia Kinnison 
<Kinnison> mdke: 
<Kinnison> s/:/./
<mdke> lol
<mdke> sup
<mdke> sabmoc, ping
<Burgundavia> well if sabmoc's ip is correct, he lives very close to me
<Burgundavia> which means he may be a work
<mdke> whoops
<mdke> brb
<mdke> (phone)
<sabmoc> hello
<sabmoc> someone still looking for me?
<sabmoc> mdke, ping
<sabmoc> Burgundavia, ping
<Burgundavia> no
<Burgundavia> sabmoc: where do you live?
<Burgundavia> mdke: was looking for you, but he is on the phone
<sabmoc> Burgundavia, near Vancouver
<sabmoc> Burgundavia, do you live in BC too?
<Burgundavia> sabmoc: Victoria
<sabmoc> Burgundavia, ah cool, I actually live in sechelt, just across the water from Nanaimo
<Burgundavia> if you can, come down to VLUG, April 12
<sabmoc> Hey that would be cool!
<Burgundavia> we meet 7pm, at UVIC
<Burgundavia> www.vlug.org
<sabmoc> Its possible that I could come. Im free on the 12th
<Burgundavia> do you want to do a hoary presentation together on the 12th?
<sabmoc> gah, no
<Burgundavia> ?
<sabmoc> well, what would be involved?
<Burgundavia> do you have a laptop?
<sabmoc> nope
<Burgundavia> hmm
<Burgundavia> then I have to install hoary on something and bring it
<Burgundavia> and then we show them the cool new features
<Burgundavia> and we talk about where Ubuntu is going
<sabmoc> hmm.. but what if Im a clueless twit?
<mdke> lol
<mdke> never
<Burgundavia> if you use Ubuntu, you cannot be
<mdke> hi sabmoc and welcome
<sabmoc> hi mdke 
<sabmoc> Burgundavia, hmm
<sabmoc> should I bring a tent? :D
<Burgundavia> sabmoc: hmm
<Burgundavia> Unfortunately, I live in a room in a house, and thus have no place to put you up
<sabmoc> How many people usually show up?
<Burgundavia> ~20-30
<sabmoc> sounds really fun
<sabmoc> I'll have to think of where I would stay, since it would have to be an overnight trip for me, and I would have to get from Nanaimo to uvic, probably bus it.
<Burgundavia> sabmoc: Nanaimo to Vic by bus (ouch, I have done that once)
* sabmoc has actually never gone to Vancouver Island
<sabmoc> hahaha
<Burgundavia> sabmoc: right
<Burgundavia> sabmoc: about that getting out more
<Burgundavia> sabmoc: you want to fly? (my brother is a pilot)
<sabmoc> Burgundavia, I was thinking flying too
<mdke> sabmoc, i don't believe that canadian team has grown up in 2 days
<mdke> that's so cool
<Burgundavia> have to counteract the european influence you know
<sabmoc> aye, not to mention those pesky americano's
<mdke> heh
<mdke> get Burgundavia to join
<sabmoc> Burgundavia, join
<sabmoc> haha
<mdke> he's only on 10 or so teams
<sabmoc> pfft
<Burgundavia> I am not
<Burgundavia> I do stuff for universe and co
<Burgundavia> s/co/doc
<Burgundavia> that is it
<mdke> just kidding
<Burgundavia> ;)
<mdke> but you're an active member of the ubuntu community
<Burgundavia> I guess you could say that
<sabmoc> Burgundavia, how much does the ferry to Nanaimo cost?
<Burgundavia> 10, 5 if student
<Burgundavia> each way
<Burgundavia> from bcferries.com
<sabmoc> Actually I meant with a vehicle
<Burgundavia> more
<Burgundavia> 31.25 each wa
<Burgundavia> s/wa/way
<Burgundavia> plus driver
<sabmoc> so 72.50, plus about 35 for the Gibsons ferry, plus gas food and hotel. hmm
<Burgundavia> hmm
<sabmoc> ouch
<sabmoc> haha
<Burgundavia> it doesn't have an airport, does it?
<sabmoc> I'll check the rates for a float plane, next to where I work is a float airline
<Burgundavia> ah
<Burgundavia> going to be more
<sabmoc> they've given me free rides before
<sabmoc> maybe we can work something out
<sabmoc> Its funny that I've never been to Vancouver Island, yet I've been all over BC's interior.
<Burgundavia> what do you do as a day job?
<sabmoc> I used to fix photocopiers for sharp, but now I am in a transition taking over the family business from my father. We own a restaurant.
<Burgundavia> ah
<sabmoc> So basically Im a cook.
<Burgundavia> I am currently enjoying being unemployed
<Burgundavia> left my job about 2 weeks ago
<sabmoc> Burgundavia, lucky bugger
<Burgundavia> used to work for www.microserve.ca
<Burgundavia> doing windows crap
<sabmoc> ah cool
<sabmoc> Burgundavia, I worked for Stream in Chiliwack for a while doing tech support
<sabmoc> Burgundavia, are you going to school right now?
<Burgundavia> went to CDI
<Burgundavia> I was hired straight out of CDI last Sept
<Burgundavia> was kind of nice
<sabmoc> Burgundavia, wow
<Burgundavia> then I realized that I was killing myself doing the job
<sabmoc> Burgundavia, what did you take at cdi?
<Burgundavia> and wasn't having much fun doing it
<Burgundavia> network and internet security specialist
<Burgundavia> basically msce+security
<Burgundavia> thought I don't have the certs
<sabmoc> Burgundavia, nice, you're not going to believe this but I went to CDI for a short time as well.
<Burgundavia> what did you take?
<sabmoc> Burgundavia, I didnt like it though, I was taking programming.
<Burgundavia> hmm
<Burgundavia> ya
<Burgundavia> they only teach m$ stuff
<sabmoc> I droped out before the student loans went though the roof
<mdke> lol@list
<mdke> "bug first, then email"
<sabmoc> Burgundavia, maybe you had desent teachers but when I was there all I did was read, there was almost no personal instruction going on at all, and I just figured why pay for this when I can do it myself for free.
<Burgundavia> I didn't get much is the way of personal stuff
<Burgundavia> but I did quite well
<sabmoc> thats cool
<Burgundavia> the instructor really really knew his stuff through
<Burgundavia> though
<Burgundavia> that helped
<sabmoc> in hind site I probably should have finished it, just for the sake of finishing
<Burgundavia> hey, water over the dam
<sabmoc> our instructor had her own software company and was making a killing on some contracts, i dont think she really cared about her teaching job but its tuff to find qualified programmers willing to teach.
<sabmoc> Burgundavia, yeah, doesnt really matter, I've taken a few classes at BCIT and Im taking another one next term.
<Burgundavia> cdi pays like shit too
<sabmoc> Burgundavia, probably, they have to finance to advertisments somehow.
<sabmoc> s/to/those/;
<sabmoc> oh no, gmail is down
<Burgundavia> sabmoc: no, its not
<Burgundavia> sabmoc: however, it was down for me
<Burgundavia> sabmoc: I suspect rolling server outages
#ubuntu-doc 2005-04-02
<sabmoc> mdke, ping re: moinmoin
<mdke> ello
<mdke> i mean, sabmoc, pong
<sabmoc> ah good you're awak, so what is involved with switching to moinmoin
<sabmoc> haha :)
<mdke> hmm
<sabmoc> i'll pong you!
<mdke> heh
<mdke> i heard it was the geek way to respond
<mdke> anyhow
<sabmoc> heh
<mdke> moinmoin is pretty simple
<sabmoc> I like simple
<mdke> yeah you basically cut out all the tags ;)
<mdke> http://ubuntulinux.org/wiki/MoinMoin
<mdke> sabmoc, i don't mind doing it later on
<sabmoc> mdke, thats ok, I would like to do it myself to see how it works.
<mdke> ok
<mdke> best way is to take a look at an existing page
<mdke> also
<mdke> http://ubuntulinux.org/wiki/MoinMoinExamples
* sabmoc is becoming suspicious that ubuntu people can read his mind.
<mdke> heh
<mdke> we all think alike
<mdke> we are the borg
<mdke> *coughs*
<sabmoc> lol
<mdke> not really
<mdke> >_>
<mdke> <_<
<sabmoc> stop
<sabmoc> im dying
<mdke> you can't die
<mdke> only be assimilated
<mdke> ok enough
<mdke> i've only seen the occasional start trek episode, i wanna make that clear
<sabmoc> kidneys rupturing
<mdke> *star
<sabmoc> suure..
<mdke> heh
<sabmoc> moinmoin
<sabmoc> huh http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/FrontPage/searchwiki?source=search&expr=MoinMoinExamples&submit=Search
<sabmoc> 0 results
<mdke> oh sorry
<mdke> i suck
<mdke> oh well its linked from HelpOnEditing
<sabmoc> found it
<sabmoc> mdke, where are you located?
<mdke> london uk
<mdke> sorry
<mdke> my name is matt
<sabmoc> hi matt
<mdke> hiya
<sabmoc> ok, moinmoin looks pretty strait forward, but I have one question.
<sabmoc> 1. Why
<mdke> fire away
<mdke> hmm
<sabmoc> as in, why not html which almost everyone is already familiar with
<mdke> but loads of users aren't familiar with html
<mdke> the idea is to encourage people who can't write things like html: because those that can, can easily write moin ;)
<sabmoc> but probably more than moinmoin
<sabmoc> ah ok, I see now
<mdke> i wasn't around when they took the decision, but i think that simplicity is the main reason
<sabmoc> yes it is simpler
<sabmoc> Ok, good enough
<mdke> sadly it is not yet set as default
<sabmoc> Ask me what I think of wiki's
<mdke> lol
<mdke> i've read it
<sabmoc> haha
<mdke> you have a point
<sabmoc> wait a minute? 
<sabmoc> what!
<sabmoc> read it where?
<mdke> on the canadian team page
<sabmoc> oh
* sabmoc goes to check what it sasy
<sabmoc> actually I didnt write that
<mdke> oh
<mdke> it says you did iirc
<sabmoc> you mean the little note about the bug?
<mdke> wikis always get
<mdke> cluttered over time and become difficult to navigate (imo).
<mdke> AlexCombas 19March2005
<sabmoc> oh under the web portal section!
<mdke> heh
<sabmoc> ok ok
<mdke> read all the way down!
<sabmoc> guilty
<sabmoc> bah
* mdke slaps sabmoc 
* sabmoc dies of a nosebleed
<mdke> the bug thing relates to OUR wiki
<mdke> not wikis in general
<mdke> our website sucks ass
<sabmoc> hmm ok
<sabmoc> yeah its a little *cough cough*
<mdke> lemme see which bug that is
<sabmoc> but in general, about wiki
<mdke> bizarre
<mdke> those website bugs never get assigned HRMPH
<sabmoc> brb
<mdke> me too
<sabmoc> ok, this is what i wanted to say
<sabmoc> I dont like wiki's because they don't seem to encourage banter.
<sabmoc> forums are great for bantering back and forth on subjects
<sabmoc> but forums need large groups to really be fun
<sabmoc> for a small group nothing is better than a mailing list
<sabmoc> I dunno, just my opinion
<mdke> yeah i c
<mdke> we should distinguish here
<mdke> that doesn't apply to the docs on the wiki
<mdke> just to the devel and community stuff
<sabmoc> yeah
<sabmoc> wiki's are super for document creation though
<mdke> i still think you're wrong tho, hang on a tic and i'll explain
<sabmoc> ok
<mdke> ok
<sabmoc> Im not trying to say wiki's are not useful or good. They are great for making documents with a group. 
<mdke> just a quick example
<mdke> i help out with the italian team
<mdke> today i made a page for wiki pages which could usefully be translated
<mdke> the idea is that people add to it, wishlist style
<sabmoc> cool
<mdke> that wouldn't work as well on a mailing list
<sabmoc> I see your point
<mdke> another reason that i dislike mailing lists
<mdke> is that threads end up all over the shop
<sabmoc> Ok, for creating action lists where everyone can have a say they are really good.
<mdke> branching off left right and centre
<mdke> because people don't reply to the right one
<mdke> or don't use reply-to-list or whatever
<sabmoc> yes, I only like mailing lists with about 10-30 people
<sabmoc> more than 30(just off the top of my head) you should build a forum
<mdke> hmm
<mdke> in the italian group list today there was one thread that began again because someone replied all
<mdke> so irritating
<sabmoc> what Im saying is that if you want to have a running conversation with someone, wiki is not the best tool.
<mdke> yeah that's very true
<mdke> email or irc ;)
<sabmoc> haha
<sabmoc> irc sucks!
<sabmoc> jk
<mdke> hmm
<sabmoc> I like irc
<mdke> good for meetings
<mdke> and procrastinating
<sabmoc> yeah, sometimes its difficult to understand someone enless you are having a convo. You can get a better picture of the feelings involved.
<sabmoc> HAHA
<sabmoc> mdke, Ok, I'll stop bugging you
<mdke> i'm not doing anything
<sabmoc> Ok, then stop bugging me
<sabmoc> haha
<mdke> heh
<mdke> these cheeky canadians
<sabmoc> heh
<mdke> us brits are so much more polite
<sabmoc> aye, you are more polite
<sabmoc> I dont think we are impolite though, maybe just a little abrupt.
<mdke> honest is the word
<sabmoc> perhaps
<sabmoc> see, that was a very polite thing to say.. i would have never thought of that
<mdke> heh
<mdke> i like straight talking
<mdke> i'm not that english ;)
<sabmoc> ah ok
<mdke> hmm
<mdke> i tell you what is fun
<sabmoc> ok
<mdke> converting polish pages to moin
<sabmoc> whys that?
<mdke> can't understand where anything is supposed to go
<mdke> heh
<mdke> this one's got some random css in it
<sabmoc> so when you translate a page, its completely automated?
<mdke> i'm not translating just trying to change the formatting
<sabmoc> oh, I read that wrong. I see.
<sabmoc> ah the polish, wonderful people
<mdke> yeah they rock
<mdke> but their punctuation looks like code
<mdke> or vice versa
<sabmoc> lol
<sabmoc> A while back I lived in Toronto, it is much more metropolitan overthere than here. Met some real poles fresh from poland, very crazy times.
<sabmoc> fun, but just completely crazy
<sabmoc> but fun
<sabmoc> Did I say fun?
<mdke> you may have
<mdke> *grins*
<mdke> http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/PolishUbuntu
<mdke> awesome
<mdke> i'll leave that one till later
<sabmoc> oh wow
<sabmoc> mdke, is that a before or after shot?
<sabmoc> later
<mdke> before
* sabmoc needs more sleep
<mdke> me too
<sabmoc> when I select moinmoin markup, and hit preview, in the textbox it doesnt change, but the preview at the bottom shows all the html. Are they invisible in the text box?
<mdke> the preview shows you what it looks like
<mdke> moin doesn't include html tags so they show up as normal text
<mdke> geddit?
<sabmoc> hmm, down in the preview box it looks like this now: <h1>= Welcome to the Canadian Local Ubuntu Team=</h1>
<sabmoc> yes, I understand why, but how do I remove the html?
<sabmoc> in the text box it doenst show me any of the html tags
<mdke> oh
<mdke> huh
<mdke> funky
<mdke> save it and lemme see
<sabmoc> maybe I just needed to save it and reload the file
<sabmoc> yup
<sabmoc> alrighty, now I'm in business
<mdke> ok
<mdke> how bizarre
<mdke> shout if you wanna know anything
<mdke> i'll be around
<mdke> any when i say "anything"
<sabmoc> mdke, thank you I will
<mdke> i mean, basic things about moin
<mdke> ;)
<mdke> i know nothing about star trek
<sabmoc> now Im really getting suspicious
<mdke> heh
<sabmoc> you cut me off in the middle of a clever borg retort
<mdke> crazy thing is that its true
<mdke> i actually dont
<mdke> oh you mean the mind reading thing?
<sabmoc> yes
<mdke> thats not borg related at all
<mdke> just said that to put you off the scent
<sabmoc> it worked, im completely lost
<sabmoc> what is <br> in moin?
<mdke> nowt
<sabmoc> nowt?
<mdke> nothing
<mdke> to my knowledge
<sabmoc> ok
<mdke> just text
<sabmoc> I mean, when I want to make a break space, how do I do that in moin?
<mdke> leave a line i think
<sabmoc> thanks
<mdke> hang on
<mdke> hmm dunno
<mdke> leaving a line will give you a new paragraph
<mdke> lists have decent line gaps
<mdke> other than that, i'm not too sure tbg
<mdke> tbh*
<sabmoc> thats good, ok thanks
<mdke> its not as flexible as html of course
<mdke> can't get very nice designs, but its ok for text based stuff
<mdke> ok bed for me
<mdke> sabmoc, nice to meet you, see you again soon
<jsgotangco> good day
<sabmoc> good day to you also
<jsgotangco> sabmoc i am jerome pleased to meet you
<sabmoc> hi Jerome, Im Alex
<sabmoc> and same here
<jsgotangco> im just got my feet wet in docbook, its very nice i got the 1st steps covered easily
<sabmoc> cool
<sabmoc> I just joined the team yesterday
<sabmoc> I did a little DocBook work about a year ago, so I know a little.
<jsgotangco> i learned that its not that hard actually
<sabmoc> yeah, its just basically xml, and xml is just markup
<sabmoc> hi Burgundavia 
<jsgotangco> what a pleasant surprise hibernate and sleep now works flawlessly
<Burgundavia> salut
<sabmoc> fear the badgers!!
* sabmoc has been drawing badgers like a madman
<jsgotangco> would their names be benny?
<jsgotangco> *grin*
<Burgundavia> ah yes, more user art
<Burgundavia> can I look at some of the stuff you are doing?
<jsgotangco> hi Kinnison
<Kinnison> Morning
<sabmoc> Burgundavia, its not finished yet..
<sabmoc> but sure
<jsgotangco> sabmoc: you contribute artwork i presume?
<sabmoc> jsgotangco, this will be my first 
* jsgotangco wished his pencil skills can be translated to digitizers
<sabmoc> jsgotangco, oh they can!
<jsgotangco> i tried im not too good at it
<jsgotangco> hehe
<sabmoc> mostly its practise
<sabmoc> as you can see, I clearly cant spell worth a damn
<jsgotangco> ive heard most comic books now are just lifted from scanned pencils
<sabmoc> Burgundavia, want me to email it?
<jsgotangco> the inkers are left to doing the letters
<jsgotangco> and the letter have nothing to do
<jsgotangco> hehehe
<sabmoc> jsgotangco, hhaha
<jsgotangco> i'd like to do icons sometime but its been a while i did artwork
<sabmoc> jsgotangco, good icons are a lot harder than they look
<sabmoc> people dont give jimmac enough credit
<sabmoc> even though they give him lots of cred, it just isnt enough
<sabmoc> Burgundavia, ping
<sabmoc> jsgotangco, want to see my picture?
<jsgotangco> sure
<sabmoc> dccsend or email?
<jsgotangco> oh email: jgotangco@gmail.com
<sabmoc> is svg ok?
<jsgotangco> no problem
<sabmoc> there you go
<sabmoc> as you can see, its not finished yet, eventually there will be a laptop in front of him with UBUNTU written on the screen, and his body needs a lot more detail.
<jsgotangco> aww
<sabmoc> lol
<jsgotangco> svg blends well with my background color
<jsgotangco> maybe you should add more lines to make his knees more prominent
<sabmoc> yes I havnet fixed his leg
<sabmoc> haven't*
<sabmoc> and he has not hands
<Burgundavia> sabmoc: here
<Burgundavia> sabmoc: playing kolf
<Burgundavia> very addictive, if sadly kde
<Burgundavia> sabmoc: sure, you can eamil it
<sabmoc> whats the addy?
<jsgotangco> kolf sure is fun
* sabmoc installs kolf
<sabmoc> its kind of hard to tell that it's a badger 
<jsgotangco> sabmoc what time is it there arent you supposed to be sleeping hehehe
<sabmoc> jsgotangco, no, only 12:35am 
<sabmoc> how about you?
<jsgotangco> 4:38pm
<Burgundavia> sabmoc: corey.burger@gmail.com
<Kinnison> burgey!
<Burgundavia> Kinnison: hello
<Burgundavia> Kinnison: good morning, should I say
<Burgundavia> Kinnison: I had my first upload. xconq
<Kinnison> cool
<Kinnison> whassat do then?
<Kinnison> Aaha found it
<Kinnison> Source: xconq
<Kinnison> Version: 7.4.1-2.1ubuntu1
<Kinnison> Changed-By: Corey Burger <corey.burger@gmail.com>
<Kinnison> Cool
<Burgundavia> sabmoc: not bad badger
<Burgundavia> sabmoc: tail is a little odd, but the rest is good
<sabmoc> Burgundavia, :D thanks
<sabmoc> he is going to have a little laptop infront of him that says UBUNTU on the screen
<sabmoc> I want him to be the mascot for the breezy badger release
<Burgundavia> Kinnison: I have been sucked in by KDE. I am fixing qtparted, and now am filing bugs against kolf
<Burgundavia> save me from this evil qt-ing
<Kinnison> Burgundavia, dude, get out while you still can.
<jsgotangco> lol
<sabmoc> welcome back :)
<jsgotangco> sabmoc: are you a canuck?
<sabmoc> haha, oh man I really miss hockey :)
<Burgundavia> bah hockey
<jsgotangco> bah
<jsgotangco> hehe
<Burgundavia> they can stay locked out
<sabmoc> well I was until hockey died
<jsgotangco> lol
<jsgotangco> well i just asked because i am moving to toronto next year
<Burgundavia> where are you now?
<jsgotangco> i am in manila
<jsgotangco> i think i get the docteam flow and process but i have a question: where do i actually get to know which doc needs to be edited/reviewed and stuff?
<Burgundavia> jsgotangco: mostly everything is done, with minor review stuff
<Burgundavia> jsgotangco: in the quickguide, it says at the beginning of the section
<jsgotangco> oh
<jsgotangco> i guess i will be doing more stuff for badger instead
<Burgundavia> jsgotangco: there is still stuff to do right now
<mdke> hi all
<Burgundavia> jsgotangco: if you are feeling adventurous, try editing and cleaning up the wiki
<jsgotangco> Burgundavia: that's what i want to know but i really dont know where to start
<jsgotangco> well the wiki
<jsgotangco> hehe
<jsgotangco> that's a good start too
<mdke> :)
<Burgundavia> I hate the wiki
<Burgundavia> I barely touch it
<jsgotangco> but that means fixing everyting to moin moin hehehe
<mdke> don't knock it ;)
<Burgundavia> I like wikis, just not this one
<jsgotangco> i like the wiki except that its kinda chaotic for me at the moment
<Burgundavia> en.wikpedia.org/wiki/User:Burgundavia
<mdke> i mean, don't knock the job of fixing everything to moin
<mdke> *grins*
<jsgotangco> but arent we supposed to standardise the wiki to moin?
<mdke> yeah
<mdke> i spend lots of time on it
<mdke> Burgundavia, not the right link
<Burgundavia> en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Burgundavia
<Burgundavia> missed an i
<mdke> oh doh
<mdke> should have seen that
<Burgundavia> that is why there is a page there
<Burgundavia> as lots of people don't
<mdke> lol
<Burgundavia> see it, that is
<Burgundavia> amd64 users here?
<jsgotangco> wish my laptop has that
<mdke> jsgotangco, if the idea of doing moin conversion doesn't repel you, you can use this page to see what needs to be done:
<mdke> http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/pagesByType
<mdke> we're nearly there ;)
<jsgotangco> holy
<jsgotangco> i don't mind moin really
<jsgotangco> but...
<jsgotangco> hehe
<jsgotangco> nevermind
<mdke> sup?
<sabmoc> mdke, CanadianTeam has been moined
<jsgotangco> that stat aint bad actually
<mdke> sabmoc, genius
<jsgotangco> its almost there
* sabmoc blushes
<sabmoc> mdke, did you just wake up?
<mdke> not long ago
<mdke> isn't it really early with you?
<sabmoc> heh, well now its my turn to hit the bed
<mdke> same applies @ Burgundavia 
<sabmoc> almost 2am
<mdke> sabmoc, ok sweet dreams
<mdke> 10 here
<jsgotangco> heh
<Burgundavia> 2am is great!
<mdke> yeah 2 am is doable
<Burgundavia> 4am is better
<mdke> but Burgundavia you've probably just got up or something
<Burgundavia> nope
<mdke> after a couple of hours sleep
<Burgundavia> got up at 9am
<mdke> ok cool
<mdke> body clock is back 
<Burgundavia> I even went to bed at 11pm last night
<jsgotangco> whaddaya know my userpage is still in html hehehe
<mdke> lol
<mdke> jsgotangco, i'm matt btw
<mdke> pleased to meet you
<mdke> oh you're the phillippines guy?
<jsgotangco> i am jerome
<jsgotangco> yes
<mdke> ahh
<jsgotangco> pleased to meet your acquaintance
<mdke> sorry to see your site got deleted
<mdke> i believe there is a recycle bin
<mdke> but i don't remember how it works
<jsgotangco> ahh its ok the n00bs where just learning
<jsgotangco> good thing they didnt delete anything else
<mdke> heh
<jsgotangco> thanks for recovering some parts
<jsgotangco> hehe
<mdke> np
<jsgotangco> hmm wiki work aint so bad after all
<mdke> lol
<sabmoc|sleeping> goodnight folks
<sabmoc|sleeping> Zzzz
<jsgotangco> night
<mdke> night
<mdke> i'm off too
<mdke> cyall
<jsgotangco> cya
<sabmoc|sleeping> Burgundavia, before I go, I dont think Im going to be able to make it to the vanlug in April I'll catch the next one. Do you go to the vancouver meetings too?
<Burgundavia> sabmoc|sleeping: haven't been but might go
<sabmoc|sleeping> Burgundavia, well I hope you do, If you make it I'll buy you a beer
<Burgundavia> sounds good
<sabmoc|sleeping> alrighty, nite
<sabmoc|sleeping> Burgundavia, take a look under News and Anouncements https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/CanadianTeam
<sabmoc|sleeping> ok, this time for real.. ZZzz
<sabmoc|sleeping> damn
<sabmoc|sleeping> cant sleep
<jsgotangco> hahaha
<jsgotangco> do you happen to play around with Rosetta?
<sabmoc|sleeping> that name sounds familiar
<Burgundavia> online translation app
<Burgundavia> one of 3
<jsgotangco> yes
<Burgundavia> IRMA
<jsgotangco> i am trying it out
<Burgundavia> and Pootle
<jsgotangco> but i stll get errors?
<Burgundavia> rosetta is very much alpha
<jsgotangco> but i just have to type and enter right?
<jsgotangco> no special characters whatsoever?
<Burgundavia> what do you mean by special chars?
<Burgundavia> There is a rosetta channel #rosetta
<jsgotangco> its already #launchpad but no one seems awake
* Kinnison grins
<jsgotangco> lol
<sabmoc|zombie> hrmm... brainzzz!!
<jsgotangco> aha your wiki page is in html
<sabmoc|zombie> blast!
<sabmoc|zombie> i'll fix it tomorrow
<jsgotangco> *grin*
<sabmoc|zombie> are these the hoary docs? http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/DocteamProjects
<jsgotangco> the sure look hoary
<sabmoc|zombie> jsgotangco, do you know if the html preview is available in a single page for easier printing?
<jsgotangco> no i don't :(
<sabmoc|zombie> Or maybe someone can tell me the best way to print out the documentation.
<jsgotangco> well im going home
<jsgotangco> see you later
<sabmoc|zombie> jsgotangco, cya 
<sm> hi mdke, want to spend a few minutes on stuff ?
<sm> or mako ?
<mdke> sm, if you like
<mdke> hi
<sabmoc> is there an easy way to print out the current documents?
<mdke> hi sabmoc 
<mdke> not sure
<sabmoc> goodday mdke 
<mako> hey dude
<mdke> hi mako 
<sabmoc> maybe we could start exprorting snapshots to pdf
<sabmoc> exporting, even
<mdke> sm, ping
<mako> mdke: hola
<mdke> :)
<sabmoc> brb
<sm> ack, where's my sound
<mdke> sm, ping {louder}
<sm> oh I killed esd so I could hear something else
<mdke> heh
<sm> sucky ubuntu eh.. 
<sm> oops
<mdke> sm, do you use ubuntu?
<mdke> ah
<mdke> that's a yes ;)
<mdke> sm, how you doing?
<sm> good thx.. I see you're nearly finished with stx pages
<mdke> heh
<mdke> 30 odd to go
<sabmoc> that reminds me, my userpage is still html
* mdke peers at sabmoc 
<sabmoc> eep!
<mdke> lol
<sm> mako, what are we going to do about zwiki upgrades.. cut to the end of the story :)
<sm> who's gonna do it
<sabmoc> haha
<mdke> oooh
<sabmoc> mdke, it did it again, it wouldnt show me the html markup until I saved and reloded the page.
<mdke> sabmoc, html is a bit dodgy i think
<mdke> when you edit it it doesn't show you the whole code
<sabmoc> ah
<mdke> it tries to let you edit it as it appears
<mdke> unless you open it in an external editor
<mdke> lol http://www.uninteresting.info/archives/images/bart-google-thumb.gif
<sabmoc> lol
<sabmoc> good advice
<sabmoc> speaking of which
<sabmoc> does moin have a tag for <center> ?
<mdke> no
<sabmoc> blast!
<mdke> lol
* sabmoc mumbles 
<sabmoc> haha
<mdke> its not cut out for design
<sabmoc> yeah, oh well
<mdke> emphasis on content
<sabmoc> Im actually beginning to prefer moin
<mdke> :)
<sabmoc> Im discovering a whole new form of lazyness
<sabmoc> and just when I thought I couldn't get any lazyer
<mdke> laziness is an art
<sm> sabmoc: prefer it to what ?
<sm> mdke: deleted pages go to /recycle_bin
<mdke> sm, thanks
<mdke> sm, you're doing a zwiki update?
<sm> no, I can't
<mdke> sure
<mdke> but you're hoping to do one ;)
<mdke> ?
<sm> right.. we're talking about how to re-establish the process
<mdke> cool
<sm> otherwise many things on the wishlist are held up
<sm> but mako and I are playing irc tag around the world :)
<mdke> lol
<sabmoc> mdke, ok stop peering at me, it is fixed.
<mdke> lol
<mdke> awesome
<sabmoc> sm, prefer it to html, but not really, just beause I am lazy
<sabmoc> and now.. badger time!
<sm> ah
<mdke> ?
<mdke> sabmoc, you have a badger?
<sabmoc> no, im making one
<sabmoc> frankenbadger!
<mdke> hmm
<sabmoc> no, inkscape
<mdke> linux on a dead badger?
<sabmoc> hmm, nice badger, does it run linux?
<mdke> http://www.strangehorizons.com/2004/20040405/badger.shtml
<mdke> so you're designing a logo?
<mdke> awesome
<sabmoc> mascot
<mdke> yeah sorry
<sabmoc> should be finished tomorrow
<sabmoc> or maybe today
<mdke> awesome
<mdke> check out that howto tho its great
<sabmoc> omg
<sabmoc> To install antenna, make a small incision with the pocketknife at the nape of the badger's neck. Then shove the antenna down the badger's back under the hide. Antenna must lie as flat as possible along the spine, or security will be suboptimal. Antenna may also be installed by cutting the badger's back skin open, but requires post-installation stitchery to restore structural integrity; this method is recommended for licensed taxidermist
<sabmoc> s only.
<sabmoc> thats just wrong
<mdke> keep readin
<mdke> sm, did you see that other thing about the pics?
<sm> I lost it.. do you remember it
<mdke> sure
<mdke> the little pics at  https://www.ubuntulinux.org/portal_memberdata/portraits/ don't have suffixes
<mdke> sm, there might be thousands of the buggers tho
<sm> that link doesn't work for me.. how did you get there ?
* sabmoc is away: onBlur();
<mdke> ok sorry
<mdke> example: https://www.ubuntulinux.org/portal_memberdata/portraits/118
<sm> but how are those accessible on the site
<mdke> people post them in their userpages and they come up in stx
<sm> you can set them in preferences, right
<mdke> no idea
<mdke> in the pages i've seen they are just posted as links
<sm> can I see one
<mdke> erm
<mdke> hang on
<sm> I don't find any in the ubuntu wiki..
<mdke> http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/AlexanderPoslavsky
<sm> dang.. search for "portraits" doesn't match that url
<sm> plovs causing trouble :/
<sm> he added that in his preferences
<sm> but unfortunately it will always be without a suffix
<mdke> right
<sm> plone names these according to the username
<mdke> but the address works on its own in a browser doesn't it?
<sm> certainly
<sm> but we can't link those in moin at all afaik, except by changing moin rules
<mdke> not a problem
<sm> unless.. we could get the apache admin to put in a rewrite rule, to just strip off the suffix
<sm> then it would work
<mdke> sounds like too much bother
<sm> I think portraits could be useful
<sm> you could also not use prefs, just upload the image to the wiki
<mdke> yeah exactly
<mdke> whats the score on making moin the default markup?
<sm> let's talk about what that means exactly
* sm looks at edit form
<sm> - move it to the top of the page types list
<mdke> maybe
<mdke> i don't know how it works
<sm> what else
<sm> I think that is probably what people mean
<mdke> oh
<sm> I can do that now
<mdke> what i mean is
<mdke> sm, when you create a new page, moin be the selected markup
<mdke> so that people who don't look at that bit or change it because they don't know any of the markups, just leave it as moin
<sm> yeah, I think it just needs to move to the top of the list
<sm> there
<sm> good move :)
<mdke> cool
<mdke> awesome thanks sm
<sm> re the login redirect problem - I have seen it only when using the zwiki skin
<sm> I think
<mdke> right
<mdke> i filed a bug
<mdke> do those get assigned to you or elsewhere?
<sm> I bookmarked it
<mdke> ty
<mdke> but perhaps its not your fault
<mdke> maybe its plone
<sm> they get assigned to louise
<sm> so it's her fault
<mdke> heh
<mdke> i think more likely they don't get assigned at all
* sm tries to debug locally, foiled by a plone bug
<sm> out of time, I'll have to try again
<mdke> lol
<mdke> poor sm
<sm> see you
<mdke> bye
#ubuntu-doc 2005-04-03
<jsgotangco> greetings
<sabmoc> jsgotangco, hey dude
<jsgotangco> alex hey you still awake haha
<sabmoc> its only 6pm
<sabmoc> of course im awake
<jsgotangco> oh you already slept then
<sabmoc> im alaways awake >_>
<jsgotangco> i thought you were still in zombie mode
<sabmoc> no, drank some holy potion and im ok now
<jsgotangco> hope its not moonshine
<sabmoc> thats too holy for me
<sabmoc> i prefer beer
<jsgotangco> im so bored here at work i wanna go home its only 10:30 am but the holiday feeling is already in me
<sabmoc> everyday is like that for me
<jsgotangco> well we're having some catholic holidays starting tommorow till sunday
<sabmoc> ah cool
* sabmoc is back (gone 05:31:20)
<sabmoc> im going to draw for a bit, ill be back later
<jsgotangco> k see ya
<EricNeon> any body could build a web site as "www.chubuntu.org" for Chinese team of ubuntu?
<jsgotangco> hi eric
<jsgotangco> you might want to check out the wiki pages for details on registering a domain with the ubuntu name
<jsgotangco> but if your local team is already established, you can always request ubuntu for an ubuntu-cc.org domain
<jsgotangco> i think for china, it might be ubuntu-cn
<jsgotangco> ubuntu.cn.org i believe
<jsgotangco> wait should be ubuntu-cn.org 
<jsgotangco> its best you consult the wiki first
<EricNeon> ok
<EricNeon> ubuntu-cn
<EricNeon> when could web site begin?
<EricNeon> just "www.ubuntu-cn.org"
<jsgotangco> you have to consult matthias urlichs for that
<jsgotangco> https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/MatthiasUrlichs
<EricNeon> I had find it ,but I can't see it
<EricNeon> let me retry
<sabmoc> EricNeon, hi, are you thinking of starting a local team for china?
<sabmoc> I am in the process of starting a Canadian team
<sabmoc> EricNeon, you can see our page here, if you have any questions let me know https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/CanadianTeam
<jsgotangco> you will fail!
<jsgotangco> joke
<jsgotangco> hehhe
<EricNeon> ^
<EricNeon> hello
<EricNeon> sabmoc
<EricNeon> I will start a Chinese Team for ubuntu
<EricNeon> now ,we had some members, for example  Hiweed Leng,Carlos Liu, Huahua Easthero
<jsgotangco> just make a table
<jsgotangco> ill show you later
<jsgotangco> i gotta eat first
<EricNeon> jsgotangco, where are you from?
<EricNeon> I am in Shanghai now
<EricNeon> I gotta eat too
<sabmoc> hi EricNeon im here
<sabmoc> EricNeon, I was just in Shenzhen about a month ago
<EricNeon> I am be back
<EricNeon> lol~
<EricNeon> nice to meet you sabmoc
<EricNeon> many of my friend are in Canada
<sabmoc> EricNeon, nice to meet you also
<sabmoc> I'll be back in one moment
<EricNeon> :)
<EricNeon> I must re compile xchat
<sabmoc> hi
<jsgotangco> EricNeon hi i am in Manila at the moment
<jsgotangco> i just came from lunch
<EricNeon> hoho
<EricNeon> I had lunch one hour ago
<EricNeon> what are you do in Manila?
<EricNeon> I am looking for any body who is love ubuntu in chinese
<jsgotangco> EricNeon: i am of chinese descent but unfortunately, i was not trained in mandarin at home
<jsgotangco> my grandfather came from guangdong
<EricNeon> ohmy english is so pool
<EricNeon> :)
<jsgotangco> heh its ok man youre cool
<EricNeon> I am realy ZheJiang ShaoXing
<EricNeon> I work and living at Shanghai 
<jsgotangco> hello i am jerome
<jsgotangco> nice to meet you
<EricNeon> me too
<EricNeon> now ,I have to working
<EricNeon> see you !
<jsgotangco> me too talk to you later
<jsgotangco> Burg hi
<Burgundavia> salut
<sabmoc> hello
<EricNeon> hi
<Burgundavia> salut all
<jsgotangco> salut
<sabmoc> HI guys
<sabmoc> I finished my badger today :P ..im just watching some tv
<jsgotangco> how does it look like now?
<sabmoc> want to see it?
<jsgotangco> sure
<Burgundavia> sounds good
<sabmoc> Hi Burgundavia 
<sabmoc> shall I send it to you also?
<sabmoc> jsgotangco, sent
<Burgundavia> yes
<jsgotangco> the breezy badger?
<jsgotangco> i thought it was benny badger
<BuffaloSoldier> the last i heard it was breezy
<sabmoc> yep thats what I heard
<sabmoc> jsgotangco, so what do you think, any suggestions?
<jsgotangco> on the UbuntuDownUnder wiki, it was "bendy badger"
<jsgotangco> hmmm
<sabmoc> well the announcement for the mascot competition says breezy, but it doesnt matter I can just edit that text and change to to whatever I need to.
<BuffaloSoldier> i got breezy from here http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=20381
<sabmoc> BuffaloSoldier, I dont think I have introduced myself yet, hello
<jsgotangco> can anyone log into the wiki i get authentication failures
<BuffaloSoldier> sabmoc: me too.. hi there
<sabmoc> BuffaloSoldier, my names Alex, I'm in Canada
<BuffaloSoldier> sabmoc: I'm Firdaus from Malaysia
<sabmoc> nice to meet you
<Burgundavia> sabmoc: nice work
<sabmoc> Burgundavia, have any suggestions?
<BuffaloSoldier> what are you guys up to?
<jsgotangco> it seems the wiki isnt working at the moment
<Burgundavia> sabmoc: to be honest, I liked the badger without the computer
<Burgundavia> sabmoc: simpler and cleaner
<sabmoc> BuffaloSoldier, Im just showing them a picture I did for the mascot competition
<Burgundavia> sabmoc: but the new colour is nice
<BuffaloSoldier> Ubuntu is going to have a mascot? :) nice
<sabmoc> Burgundavia, yeah Im not so sure about the computer
<jsgotangco> ditch the desktop
<sabmoc> but then what do I put infront of him? he is positioned to be looking at something
<sabmoc> I think I might have to scrap it and start again.
<sabmoc> BuffaloSoldier, well hopefully some real artist are also making some pictures :P
<BuffaloSoldier> :)
<jsgotangco> ok let's hire everaldo then
<sabmoc> jsgotangco, so what dont you like about the computer? does it just look crappy, or doesnt match? what.. I need to know.
<jsgotangco> desktop is so 90s
<jsgotangco> :D
<sabmoc> aww common
<sabmoc> haha
<jsgotangco> well ok make it an lcd monitor at least
<jsgotangco> not a crt
<sabmoc> I thought it was an lcd :P
<sabmoc> but then again, the bagder looks like a raccoon
<jsgotangco> ok i didnt look closer to the pic until i made it to a wallpaper
<jsgotangco> thats a huge lcd for a laptop
<jsgotangco> id love something like that
<jsgotangco> hehe
<sabmoc> so should I make the laptop smaller?
<jsgotangco> well your lcd size should at least match with the keyboard/touchpad size
<jsgotangco> and give the laptop some depth i guess
<jsgotangco> it looks so thin!
<sabmoc> ok, just a second
<sabmoc> you mean the keyboard looks too thin, or the whole laptop?
<jsgotangco> well the whole thing looks thin for me
<sabmoc> ok
<sabmoc> I'll fix it up right now
<sabmoc> brb
<sabmoc> to be honest I did the laptop really really quick :) so Im not surprised you dont like it
<jsgotangco> make it a vaio or a dell
<jsgotangco> haha
<sabmoc> oh common, haha
<BuffaloSoldier> guys, got to go.. take care
<sabmoc> jsgotangco, ok, I just sent you another copy
<jsgotangco> that was fast
* sabmoc wishes ubuntu had an art channel 
<sabmoc> well I didnt do much :P
<jsgotangco> how about starting a wiki entry then
<jsgotangco> you can start one yourself anyway
<sabmoc> good idea, I've been thinking about it
<jsgotangco> you might want to chat up with volvoguy
<sabmoc> yeah but nobody would know about it
<sabmoc> is he an artist?
<jsgotangco> well
<jsgotangco> advertise yourself then
<jsgotangco> yeah
<sabmoc> ok, you can be honest
<sabmoc> does it still suck?
<jsgotangco> this looks much better
<jsgotangco> but it doesnt look like a laptop now
<sabmoc> its a radioactive badger now
<sabmoc> yes, now it looks like a flatscreen and keyboard
<sabmoc> thats what I was originally intending
<sabmoc> Im going to put two small buttons on the lcd screen
<sabmoc> jsgotangco, any more suggestions? Im all ears :)
<jsgotangco> change the box
<jsgotangco> it looks radioactive
<jsgotangco> hehe
<sabmoc> hehe
<sabmoc> ok
<sabmoc> Im not so good will color composition
<jsgotangco> that would do for starters i guess
<sabmoc> as you can see! lol
<sabmoc> well just tell me anything you can think of, changing the color of the box is quick and easy, ill do it right now
<sabmoc> what about the badgers new color, is that better?
<jsgotangco> ah its ok now after all i guess you are after a cartoon look right?
<sabmoc> yeah
<jsgotangco> when i was younger, i did draw toons but i ended up drawing more evil horned creatures rather than cute ones
<sabmoc> haha
<sabmoc> yeah, I used to draw lots of dragons and stuff
<jsgotangco> good for you it was dragons
<jsgotangco> mine was bipeds with horns and a tail
<sabmoc> I drew some of those too
<jsgotangco> well i did listen to heavy stuff back then
<Kinnison> Morning
<jsgotangco> hi
<sabmoc> hello
<sabmoc> jsgotangco, ping
<jsgotangco> 1.38
<sabmoc> jsgotangco, I sent one with slighly saner colors
<jsgotangco> blue is ok i just thought you changed that box to a table at least :D
<sabmoc> dont like the box eh?
<sabmoc> ok, but its so much easier than a table
<jsgotangco> i know
<jsgotangco> i mean
<jsgotangco> i just felt you just put a box there to finish it
<jsgotangco> hehe
<sabmoc> I did :)
<sabmoc> but then I kind of liked it
<jsgotangco> its your call
<sabmoc> I'll try a table
<sabmoc> :)
<jsgotangco> i know
<jsgotangco> make it a glass table
<jsgotangco> har har har
<sabmoc> omg
<sabmoc> i do a box, you suggest a glass table! lol
<jsgotangco> or a table with a victorian accent
<sabmoc> gah!
<sabmoc> how about a box, and i'll put for skinny boxes under neath so they look like legs
<sabmoc> s/for/four/
<jsgotangco> its still a box!
<sabmoc> but.. but..
<jsgotangco> do you use a box to put your PC on top?
<sabmoc> yes
<jsgotangco> suuureee
<sabmoc> I think i'll just fix the monitor and send it in.. I have to start doing some real work
<jsgotangco> have you seen the entries of other participants?
<sabmoc> jsgotangco, ping
<sabmoc> no maybe Im the only one 
<sabmoc> haha
<sabmoc> lets hope not
<sabmoc> want to see the final draft?
<sabmoc> of course you do :D
<jsgotangco> i do?
<sabmoc> yep
<sabmoc> I made a glass table
<sabmoc> it is inside the box
<jsgotangco> haha
<jsgotangco> well that shadow did make a difference you know
<sabmoc> :)
<sabmoc> a good difference I hope!
<sabmoc> but I already changed, it, the mouth looked a bit funny, its cleaned now in my copy
<jsgotangco> your box is off a little bit in the dimensions department
<sabmoc> yeah, and the shading isnt right either
<sabmoc> I'll adjust the box dimensions and the shade but im not making it a table, too much work :P
<jsgotangco> hehe
<jsgotangco> gee
<jsgotangco> its almost 6pm here but the sun is still up
<sabmoc> ah, those wonderful days 
<jsgotangco> i guess summer is really here then
<sabmoc> jsgotangco, you're going to hate me
<sabmoc> haha
<jsgotangco> haha
<jsgotangco> what is this
<sabmoc> what? nothing!
<sabmoc> haha
<sabmoc> its a badger
<sabmoc> the box still needs to be tweeked a bit
<jsgotangco> i know
<jsgotangco> i dont see any difference
<jsgotangco> youre messing up my wallpaper
<jsgotangco> haha
<jsgotangco> hmm
<sabmoc> haha
<jsgotangco> i got another email from canonical
<jsgotangco> about the conference
* sabmoc feels so left out
<jsgotangco> awww
<jsgotangco> i just got lucky i got it
<jsgotangco> after the holidays this week, i gotta fix my papers already
<Burgundavia> lucky man
<Burgundavia> I went to Mataro partially on my own money
<jsgotangco> how is it like?
<jsgotangco> i mean meeting up with these guys
<Burgundavia> really really cool
<Burgundavia> I saw a quote in lwn that said "You couldn't tell the difference between the canonical people and not", and that was true
<jsgotangco> really
<Burgundavia> almost half the people there were canonical
<Burgundavia> most of the rest sponsored
<jsgotangco> it would be my first time to attend such an event actually, ive been limited to mostly local linux events
<Burgundavia> there was a a rocking atmosphere
<jsgotangco> so im kind of jittery
<jsgotangco> i dont know what to expect
<Burgundavia> I should have applied for money
<Burgundavia> I probably would have got some
<jsgotangco> i mean 
<jsgotangco> they opened up sponsorship for those in the immediate area
<jsgotangco> i took the chance of applying
<Kinnison> burger!
<jsgotangco> i was never expecting it
<jsgotangco> till mako emailed me a week ago
<Burgundavia> Kinnison: hello
* Kinnison ruffles Burgundavia 
<Burgundavia> Kinnison: think there is still a chance I can get some money?
<Kinnison> Burgundavia: Dunno; you can try
<jsgotangco> money?
<Burgundavia> jsgotangco: you are getting sponsored to go right?
<Burgundavia> money from Canonical
<Burgundavia> Kinnison works for them
<jsgotangco> yes
<jsgotangco> is that so?
<jsgotangco> i got an email from the travel agent
<jsgotangco> he told me he can only fly me on the 23rd
<jsgotangco> that gives me a whole day of doing nothing in sydney
<jsgotangco> via Quantas
* Kinnison arrives at 0615 on the 24th
<jsgotangco> but im coming from manila
<Kinnison> jsgotangco: direct, or via HK or singapore?
<jsgotangco> direct
<Burgundavia> ah, the wonders of flying from UK --> Aus
<jsgotangco> Kinnison: it would be direct
<jsgotangco> Claire emailed me just now
<Kinnison> jsgotangco: coo
<jsgotangco> but i asked her if its ok for me to arrive a day earlier
* Kinnison bounces via HK
<jsgotangco> and leave a day later
<jsgotangco> because thats the only schedule that Edward can get
<jsgotangco> what he got was arrive 23 April and leave 02 May
<jsgotangco> which gives me 2 extra days in sydney
<jsgotangco> :(
<Kinnison> Yeah; I'm doing arrive 24th leave 1st
<jsgotangco> ok claire was quick
<jsgotangco> she said it was ok
<sabmoc> you guys are so lucky
<jsgotangco> looks like im staying a day later hehe
<Kinnison> Burgundavia: you gonna ask; in case?
<sabmoc> I would sell my mother...
<sabmoc> haha
<Burgundavia> Kinnison: already did
<Burgundavia> Kinnison: I would love to be the photographer
* Kinnison shakes his head
<Kinnison> You sir are very confusing
<Burgundavia> Kinnison: what is command to search all the packages for a specific file?
<Kinnison> Burgundavia: installed or everything?
<Burgundavia> Kinnison: installed
<Kinnison> dpkg -S path
<Kinnison> E.g. dpkg -S bin/ls
<Burgundavia> thanks
<Burgundavia> I was drawing a blank
* Kinnison recommends drawing a pint
<Burgundavia> I wouldn't mind a pint
<Burgundavia> but all the bars close in 15
<Kinnison> run. run like the wind
<Burgundavia> 20 minutes by car?
<jsgotangco> Claire is efficient
* jsgotangco is impressed at Canonical staff
<Kinnison> Burgundavia: sux2bU
<Burgundavia> indeed
* Kinnison 's closest pub is 3 minutes on foot at walking pace
<Kinnison> Less probably
<Burgundavia> Kinnison, you live in a small english village
<Burgundavia> I live in a city of 3/4 million
<Kinnison> In fact; if it weren't for that house there *points* I'd be able to see the pub from here
<Kinnison> Burgundavia: and I love my village life
<Burgundavia> hmm
<Burgundavia> there are good points
<Burgundavia> debian packaging is driving me mad!
<jsgotangco> ok i'll catch you guys later im going home first and get my passport
<Burgundavia> there are at least 4 ways of doing everything
<jsgotangco> bye bye god bless
<Burgundavia> Kinnison: rasputin@Burgundavia:~/Builds/gnome-system-tools/gnome-system-tools-1.2.0/src/network $ cat TODO
<Burgundavia> - update user docs
<Burgundavia> - drink some beer
<Kinnison> heh
<Burgundavia> Kinnison: programming question
<Burgundavia> Kinnison: a file refers to @pixmaps@
<Burgundavia> where would I find the setting for this variable?
<Burgundavia> assuming it is not in the file itself
<Kinnison> It'll be a .in ?
<Burgundavia> yes
<Kinnison> That will be a variable substituted by configure
<Burgundavia> hmm
<Burgundavia> ok
<Burgundavia> thanks
<Kinnison> you can look in configure.{ac,in} to see if it's any clearer
<Burgundavia> ok
<sabmoc> Burgundavia, any chance I can mail you my gpg key and get you to sign it?
<sabmoc> or however that tricky process goes
<Burgundavia> sabmoc: Usually, signing keys in as in person thing
<Burgundavia> sabmoc: as, how do I know it is you
<Burgundavia> sabmoc: people bring keys and id
<Kinnison> sabmoc: if anyone will sign your key without meeting you physically then let me know so I can mark their key as explicitly distrusted in my trust database
<Kinnison> sabmoc: to sign without verifying identity is a very very irresponsible thing to do which weakens the web of trust
<Kinnison> It also devalues GPG signatures for those of us who take it seriously
<Kinnison> </rant>
<Burgundavia> as he said
<sabmoc> eep
<sabmoc> ok
<Burgundavia> usually, key signings are held at conferences
<sabmoc> Kinnison, sorry, but Burgundavia lives close to me and actually I was hoping to meet him so that we could exchange keys and beer, which I still plan to do, so I wasnt trying to do anything tricky by asking to mail them to me.
<sabmoc> but you're right, it would be a security breach
<Kinnison> Also; rather than mailing your key around; you put it on the keyservers
<Kinnison> so that they are publically available
<sabmoc> I have mine on biglumber.com
<Kinnison> biglumber is crap
<sabmoc> oh :(
<Kinnison> gpg --keyserver subkeys.pgp.net --send-keys mykeyid
<Kinnison> (sorry, my biglumber opinion is my own and should be taken with a pinch of salt)
<Burgundavia> bah
<sabmoc> Im not a security buff so I'll just take your word for it
<Burgundavia> linuxfest northwest and ubu are on the same time
<sabmoc> Kinnison, gpg: success sending to `subkeys.pgp.net' (status=200)
* sabmoc needs to get out more
<Kinnison> Burgundavia: ubu?
<Burgundavia> Kinnison: Ubuntudownunder
<Burgundavia> lfnw is april 30
<Kinnison> Burgundavia: oh u*d*u
<Burgundavia> yah
<Burgundavia> is 3:30 here
<Burgundavia> am that is
<Kinnison> Dude. Go to bed. Reset your body clock
<Burgundavia> I mostly have
<Burgundavia> I find it is better to stay up
<Burgundavia> then go to bed at a normal time tomorrow
<Kinnison> s'not good for you
<Burgundavia> Kinnison: ?
<Kinnison> ?
<Burgundavia> is a line added to debian/install good enough to get a file installed? 
<Burgundavia> this is talking about a .desktop file
<Burgundavia> so the dir already exists
<Kinnison> yep
<Kinnison> I think
<Burgundavia> ok
<Burgundavia> that makes my life easy
<Kinnison> test it though :-)
<Burgundavia> oh I will
<Burgundavia> Kinnison: got a question about changing source
<Kinnison> mmm?
<Burgundavia> ok
<Burgundavia> so I want to install a .desktop file that installs it's xpm in /usr/share/pixmaps
<Burgundavia> however, the program itself references this file for its window
<Burgundavia> should I change the source to make it look in pixmaps?
<Burgundavia> is that kosher?
<Kinnison> tbh I'd change the .desktop file
<Burgundavia> ok, but the general theme is to avoid absolute paths in .desktop files
<Burgundavia> makes the whole changing icon for them thing a little harder
<Kinnison> aah
<Kinnison> Hmm
<Kinnison> install a symbolic link?
<Burgundavia> ah
<Burgundavia> there doesn't seem to be any symbolic links in pixmaps
<Burgundavia> nope, none
<Kinnison> tbh without seeing the specific example I'm not sure what to recommend
<Burgundavia> ya
<Burgundavia> it is pretty easy to change it in the source, but I wondered about how kosher that was
<Burgundavia> just a one line change
<Kinnison> I'd probably go for that one line change then
<Kinnison> it'll be easy to revert if you come up with a better way
<Burgundavia> is it good programming to have your program reaching out to look for a file in this common dir?
<Kinnison> Seems reasonable to me
<Burgundavia> ok
<jsgotangco> greetings
<Burgundavia> salut
<EricNeon> beygo home
<jsgotangco> salut
<jsgotangco> bye bye
<Burgundavia> cya
<jsgotangco> can i ask a dumb question?
<Burgundavia> yes
<jsgotangco> i have no idea how to do this because i use Email certs but what is a GPG key?
<Burgundavia> a gpg key is public/private key pair that you use to sign things to prove it is you
<Burgundavia> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GPG
<jsgotangco> is that similar to an email certificate?
<Burgundavia> what does email certs do?
<jsgotangco> well it signs/encrypts email
<jsgotangco> proves that its you
<Burgundavia> gpg key is similar
<Kinnison> Email certificates (x509 ones normally) are similar in concept to SSL certificates. They're used to authenticate and to encrypt
<Burgundavia> you can also use gpg keys to sign archives, like svn and baz
<Kinnison> GPG keys are a generalisation of this
<Burgundavia> thanks Kinnison 
<jsgotangco> ok is this like the old pgp
<Burgundavia> yes
<Kinnison> Indeed; GPG is an implementation of the OpenPGP standard
<jsgotangco> ok then i have an idea what Matthias wants
<Burgundavia> once you generate a key, expect to use it for a long while
<Kinnison> Indeed. GPG keys are meant to be very long-lived
<Burgundavia> in otherwords, keep it somewhere safe
<Kinnison> mine is almost five years old and is a baby key by some people's standards
<Burgundavia> windows boxen are usally not high on the list
* Kinnison keeps his on a USB keyfob for example
<jsgotangco> ill do that as well
* Burgundavia knows that his keyfob goes everywhere with Kinnison 
<jsgotangco> ok here's another
<Kinnison> Burgundavia: not *everywhere*
<jsgotangco> whats an SSH public key?
<Kinnison> it's not waterproof
<Kinnison> SSH keys are a method of automatically identifying you during a secure-shell transaction
<Kinnison> they're typically used to allow you to log into another system without needing to use a passphrase
<jsgotangco> how do i generate that?
<Kinnison> you say 'ssh-keygen -t dsa' or 'ssh-keygen -t rsa'
* Kinnison prefers dsa; some prefer rsa
<jsgotangco> what do we usually use?
<Kinnison> then it will create ~/.ssh/id_[dr] sa.pub which is the public key component; and ~/.ssh/id_[dr] sa which is the private component
<Kinnison> again; it's important to keep the private components safe. Mine are on my keyfob too.
<jsgotangco> that was fast, like talking to a bot lol
* Kinnison smiles
<Kinnison> Someone should add this to some FAQ pages on the ubuntu wiki
* Burgundavia hides
<Kinnison> burgey! You'll do it for me? *mwah*
<jsgotangco> i'll do it after some research
<Burgundavia> no
<Burgundavia> I won't
<Burgundavia> never
<Burgundavia> ah maybe just a little
<Burgundavia> but I hate the wiki
<Burgundavia> I really do
<jsgotangco> or just post this log
<Kinnison> I hatesses it more
<jsgotangco> why not?
<jsgotangco> i like the wiki
<jsgotangco> its a bit messed up though
<Burgundavia> I like wikis, just not ours
<Kinnison> same here.
<Kinnison> It was much better when it was moinmoin
<Kinnison> But zwiki lets us integrate the searching in with the rest of the site
<Burgundavia> something other than this, please
<Burgundavia> yes, that is cool about zwiki
<Burgundavia> it just needs a whole pile more features
<jsgotangco> how come we intend to standardise on moin then
<Burgundavia> moinmoin is a wiki
<Burgundavia> moin is a markup style that came from former
<jsgotangco> yes so i read
<Kinnison> So we're standardising on moin markup in zwiki y'see
<Burgundavia> yes, as he said
<jsgotangco> wait, what do i need to do this ssh public key and the gpg key?
<Kinnison> Commonly you give the ssh public key to someone who is setting up an account for you on a computer
<jsgotangco> ok i think i get it now i can sleep soundly before i leave tommorow for boracay
<Burgundavia> salut enrico
<enrico> Hi!
<abelli> bonne soir
<enrico> abelli: bonne soir
* enrico is going
<Kinnison> ciao abelli 
<abelli> Kinnison: ciao Danielone
* sm wears his survey hat
<sm> hello Burgundavia, what are the top 3 problems with the wiki ?
<Burgundavia> parenting
<Burgundavia> inflexible
<Burgundavia> ie. parenting is inflexible
<sm> how so
<Burgundavia> one page one parent
<Burgundavia> one page can and should belong to multiple groups/categories/parents
<Burgundavia> ie
<Burgundavia> a howto
<Burgundavia> is both a howto
<Burgundavia> and possibly documentation in progress
<Burgundavia> sm: might I ask who you are?
<sm> sure, I'm Simon, one of the volunteers with ubunti wiki admin access, and zwiki author
<sm> hi
<sm> pages can have multiple parents
<Burgundavia> ah
<sm> I think people are seeing the reparent form at the bottom of the page, but not the reparent form in backlinks (when you click title)
<sm> and certainly not the zwiki docs, god help us :)
<Burgundavia> hmm
<Burgundavia> I would then say, those need to be merged
<Burgundavia> a more flexible method of parenting editing
<Burgundavia> move that stuff to the main page 
<Burgundavia> part of having 2 parents is visually showing that
<Burgundavia> currently it shows one
<sm> really ? only one appears above the title ?
<Burgundavia> currently yes
<sm> ah, I think that might be a bug with the zwiki_plone skin
<Burgundavia> hmm
<Burgundavia> ok
<sm> if you alt =, it should show both
<sm> do you have the name of a page with two, I'll check
<Burgundavia> just a sec and I will find one
<sm> http://ubuntulinux.org/wiki/WikiTips tells more about alt = 
<Burgundavia> ok
<Burgundavia> sounds good
<Burgundavia> related to that
<Burgundavia> the lots of little globe gives me the sense that there are lots of directories/pages above me
<Burgundavia> but that may be a ubuntu wiki specific thing
<sm> that is an old plone css + firefox display bug, I think
<sm> I see it often, but I'm not sure how to reproduce
<Burgundavia> I see it on every page
<Burgundavia> next topic of dislike
<Burgundavia> history
<Burgundavia> compare and contrast:
<Burgundavia> http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Beijing_Capital_International_Airport&curid=291328&action=history
<Burgundavia> http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/WikiTips/diff
<sm> ok.. yes, our diff display is primitive and needs some love
<sm> noted
<Burgundavia> related to that
<Burgundavia> quickrevert
* sm likes trac's
<Burgundavia> you don't see it on that, but admins on WP have a little button that reverts the last entry to the 2nd to last
<sm> we have that, no ?
<sm> oh, not enabled on ubuntu wiki
<Burgundavia> ok
<sm> do you mean like revert all successive.. at http://zwiki.org/TestPage/diff ?
<Burgundavia> no, it reverts the last change
<Burgundavia> it would be up with history and backlinks
<Burgundavia> very fast button
<sm> I try to reduce ui clutter, so we have always had it in the diff form
<sm> do you think all ubuntu wiki pages should have this, accessible to any member ? and right on the page ?
<Burgundavia> this would only appear for certain people when they are logged in
<Burgundavia> there is a lot of dead space that is wasted on the wiki, IMHO
<Burgundavia> especially vertically
<sm> I agree
<sm> that's why I always switch to the non-plone skin
<Burgundavia> but we need to fix the default
<Burgundavia> side bars are great
<sm> you like those eh
<sm> bah
<Burgundavia> nearly every website does them because they work
* sm likes *all* the space for content :)
<Burgundavia> you just have to do them right
<sm> yes
<Burgundavia> I personally happen to like the WP layout
<Burgundavia> I find it is clean and functional
<sm> what would you do to the default (plone) wiki skin to make it better ?
<sm> space-wise ?
<Burgundavia> merge the 2 tabs
<Burgundavia> possibly place the 1st row of tabs in a sidbar?
<Burgundavia> remove the gap between the bottom of the 1st row of tabs and the 2nd
<Burgundavia> generally cut the blank space down to a minimum
<Burgundavia> you can do that without getting crowded
<sm> ok, that's changing the standard plone layout
<Burgundavia> that is fine
<sm> which I have no problem with, but I basically only have authority to change stuff inside the brown box, if that
<Burgundavia> hmm
<sm> I know ubuntu recently held a redesign contents for the overall plone skin
<sm> did you see ?
<Burgundavia> well, inside the wiki itself is not the issue
<sm> (contest)
<Burgundavia> yes I saw it
<Burgundavia> I saw pretty stuff and very little in the way of spacing decisions
<Burgundavia> I am holding my breath
<Burgundavia> not that I object to pretty stuff
<sm> there's no webmaster right now, afaik
<Burgundavia> hmm
<sm> which makes progress kind of slow :/
<Burgundavia> some minor points
<Burgundavia> watchlists --> think subscribe, but within the wiki
<Burgundavia> really really useful
<sm> showing pages changed since last visit in recent changes ?
<Burgundavia> watchlists shows a subsection choosen by you
<sm> oh
<Burgundavia> you watch/subscribe to them
<sm> recent changes for a subset of pages
<Burgundavia> yes
<Burgundavia> then it is on one page, and you view at your leisure
<Burgundavia> if you can tie that in with email for those who want, great
<Burgundavia> even better, and very blue sky,would be rss feeds
<sm> well, we have experimental rss feeds in WikiWishlist
<sm> and we have email subscription to pages of your choice
<Burgundavia> cool
<Burgundavia> if you could unify the concept, that would be cool
<sm> but we don't have a recent changes listing of pages of your choice.. noted
<Burgundavia> basically make it one big list, viewed however you want
<sm> people say it's useful, so it must not be just featuritis.. right ?
<Burgundavia> really easy to administer and think about
<Burgundavia> this isn;t a new feature, just extending an old one
<sm> I try to work on the stuff 80% of users will use
<Burgundavia> and the 10 largest wikis in the world use it
<sm> really ?
<Burgundavia> all of WP uses watchlist
<Burgundavia> have you looked at Mediawiki?
<sm> yes, periodically
<sm> I find their recent changes over-confusing for most sues
<sm> uses
<sm> but I'll look at their watchlists again
<Burgundavia> most people use watchlists
<Burgundavia> you will need to create an account
<Burgundavia> watchlists are private to the specific account
<Burgundavia> on the parenting/categories thing, have you seen categories in wp?
<Burgundavia> I like the idea, but there are some limitations
<Burgundavia> like being able to sort the category the way you want it
<Burgundavia> either by the user on the fly
<Burgundavia> or the editor beforehand
<sm> ?
<sm> limitations of wp's categories ?
<Burgundavia> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Airports
<Burgundavia> sorted purely by alphabetically order
<sm> ah yes
<Burgundavia> this is very blue sky of course, but meta data to sort by
<sm> and it knows what's in what category because of the Category: pagename tag in the text ?
<Burgundavia> generally, what wikis really really need is easy ways of sorting data
<sm> just like WikiBadges
<sm> we do that
<Burgundavia> categories are added to pages
<Burgundavia> [[Cateogry:foo] ] 
<Burgundavia> comme ca
<sm> yes
<Burgundavia> like any other link
<Burgundavia> oh, that brings me to interlang stuff
<sm> http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?WikiBadge
<sm> ubuntu wiki can do that of course, except, to get a nice in-page listing like http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Airports requires dtml enabled, which isn't allowed
<sm> but there is a plan to enable safe moin-style scripting which will enable it again
<Burgundavia> actually, the page listing is generated by a php script doing a database query
<sm> oh.. not a wiki page
<sm> ok that's easy
<Burgundavia> the page itself is a wiki, but go and edit that airport category
<Burgundavia> take a look
<sm> if people want to put category markers on pages, I can add the index
<sm> but using hierarchy seems easier so far
<Burgundavia> but we need either parenting or categoires
<Burgundavia> not both
<Burgundavia> can we fold the 2 concepts into one/
<Burgundavia> ?
<sm> possibly
<Burgundavia> they are both trying to solve the same high-level problem
<sm> first, I tend to use parenting as the primary organizer, because it's quicker, and occasionally still use wikibadges/category markers for cross-cutting categorization
<sm> second: http://zwiki.d2m.at/ZPT/FrontPage seems possible to be a way to unify the two
<sm> (facets)
<Burgundavia> what are the primary advantages of having parentage that is not covered by categories
<Burgundavia> facets, uh no
<Burgundavia> way too busy
<sm> disregard that ui
<sm> but back to the present - advantages of parenting vs. categories ?
<sm> you can theory represent that same parent hierarchy using just category markers
<sm> if you work very hard at keeping it consistent
<Burgundavia> yes
<Burgundavia> all wikis tend to chaos at the edges
<sm> because hierarchical organization is so familiar to us, I find it's good to have it built in and let the software do more of the work
<sm> it's a (entirely optional) way to bring some order to the traditional wiki soup
<skyrider> Hey guys! Few minutes ago I've looked at https://www.ubuntulinux.org/support/local page and I saw completely screwed russian letters in "Russian" section of that page. When I looked at that page last time (about a month ago) - everything was fine. Can you somehow fix it? I can't fix it because I don't have enough permissions on site. Can somebody fix Russian text or maybe somebody can give me access for modification of that page and I'll fix that my
<sm> I haven't seen category markers do that quite so well, though wikipedia's are good
<Burgundavia> well, if we are hosting docs out of it, we need somethingmore akin to WP that c2
<Burgundavia> sm: There was a lot of talk about WP's categories and how to do them
<Burgundavia> the advantage we have is we can impose order on the wiki
<Burgundavia> WP anarchy you cannot impose order very easily
<skyrider> sivang: alive?
<Burgundavia> unless you do as I do with airports which is simply be the first with the plan
<Burgundavia> we can say
<Burgundavia> all howtos under howtos
<Burgundavia> and all gnome under gnome
<Burgundavia> etc.
<sm> the parenting feature is really equivalent to having a ParentCategory: parentpages on every page
<Burgundavia> to be honest
<sm> but it's moved out of the page body, into the ui, and is more convenient to manage
<sm> imho
<Burgundavia> yes, that is where WP falls down
<Burgundavia> but it doesn't have to be that way
<Burgundavia> it can easily be categories in the ui
<Burgundavia> but don't make it an extra click if at all possible
<Burgundavia> that is what is so horrid about the history
<Burgundavia> the sheer cost of the clicks to view everything
<sm> can you just clarify that last point.. where are there too many clicks to view a zwiki page's history ?
<Burgundavia> to go back in the history "costs" me a click for each edit
<Burgundavia> you will notice, if you spend any time with me, is I talk a lot about "cost of clicks" and how to reduce them
<sm> I definitely relate to that
<Burgundavia> or time costs in general, for that matter
<sm> I started zwiki because I didn't like the extra click to add a comment on c2 :)
<sm> slow machine, etc.
<Burgundavia> another big then in wp
<Burgundavia> seperation of content and chatter
<Burgundavia> via talk pages
<sm> I have gone back and forth on that
<Burgundavia> this is one of the key things that is needed for presentation stuff
<sm> I see it works for wp
<Burgundavia> for presentation stuff, it is needed
<Burgundavia> for other stuff, not so much
<sm> ok I see what you mean about wp, it lists the diffs
<Burgundavia> hmm
<Burgundavia> blue sky, but a dhtml foo thing there would be killer
<sm> ?
<Burgundavia> for the diffs, to reduce the cost of the clicks
<Burgundavia> but that is very blue sky
<sm> ah
<sm> would be great, but not priority for me
<sm> I'm nailing down core stuff this year
<Burgundavia> ya
<sm> "no new features!" :)
<Burgundavia> blue sky is great to think about though
<Burgundavia> anyway
<sm> definitely
<sm> well I'd better wind down here.. thanks for this input
<Burgundavia> get rid of camel case
<sm> it's an option
<Burgundavia> looks better, IMHO
<sm> if you want to raise any of these thing on one of the lists to get wider consensus, that would be good
<Burgundavia> ok
<Burgundavia> not really a priority until post hoary though
<sm> I can change a lot of stuff if I get approval from the community
<sm> ok
<sm> are you working on that ?
<Burgundavia> hoary?
<sm> yes
<Burgundavia> packaging with MOTU and docs
<sm> great
<Burgundavia> talk again soon
<Burgundavia> it was good to talk about this with someone
<sm> likewise, see you
<sm> hy skyrider
<skyrider> sm: hi
<sm> I don't have authority to give you access, but maybe I can fix it
<sm> see if you can paste the letters here, or will gaim mangle them..
<sm> what should be after #ubuntu-ru ?
<sm> I see: 2 A5B8
<skyrider> sm: I'll write small html page with all russian text.
<skyrider> sm: all those 2 A5B8 is complete garbage :(
<sm> ok.. if you paste at http://ubuntulinux.org/wiki/SandBox I can paste it into the support page
<sm> or anywhere
<skyrider> sm: ok
<Burgundavia> enrico: read backlog for wiki discussion with sm
<enrico> Burgundavia: I don't have backlog.  Trying with the irclog.workaround.org
<enrico> Would you like opinions on something specific?
<Burgundavia> nope, just letting you know
<enrico> ok, thanks!
<sm> I added a summary of issues to WikiWishlist
<sm> quick one enrico: can we enable revert button for all logged in members ?
<sm> Burgundavia: why do you need that anyway ?
<sm> I only use it for undoing spam
<enrico> sm: I see no problems in giving freedom to wiki users
<enrico> sm: what would that be needed for?
* sm looks at Burgundavia
<sm> well if there's no problem, I'll just enable it
<sm> it's a standard feature
<Burgundavia> sm: for quick revert of vandals
<enrico> Burgundavia: do we have vandals?
<sm> we don't really have vandals though, do we ?
<Burgundavia> we will
<Burgundavia> all wikis do
<sm> but this is members-only
<sm> alas
<sm> which so far seems to prevent it
<sm> but why not enable it
<enrico> Burgundavia: I think the world looks nicer if you expect people to be fine, especially when they are already being fine
* enrico reads the backlog
<enrico> sm: I see you have a problem with multiple parents
<enrico> that is, you complain people don't get it
<sm> *I* don't :)
<enrico> In fact, I think that feature is really hard to see.  i did have to ask you as well
<sm> well I'm seeing that they don't, and I see why.. I hope I'm not complaining
<enrico> For example, you manage parents clicking on something called "backlinks": I'd never expect that
<sm> I think it would seem more natural if you had been using zwiki all along
<sm> (obviously)
<sm> there used to be no quick form at the bottom
<enrico> And the "reparent" button gives you the idea that you have only one parent: if you had more than once, what are you doing with that reparenting function?  Removing all other parents?
<Burgundavia> the great thing about software, is that we get used to the quirks of the ones that we use regularly
<sm> and reparenting fit naturally with backlinks, because the pages that link to you are often the ones you want to be a parent
<enrico> sm: Yes, it fits from the POV of the developer's brain model of the wiki, but not for the user's
<sm> so clicking on the page title is really the primary form for "page relationships"
<enrico> sm: you could have a "parents" button that would show the backlinks as a convenience list to pick from
<sm> which I think fits with original wiki
<sm> yes
<enrico> that would also fit in the mental model of the users
<sm> do you mean change the "backlinks" tab to "parents", or duplicate it ?
<enrico> Duplicate it, even
<enrico> but that would be too many buttons
<enrico> And how about changing the "reparent" in the quick form to "add parent" ?
<enrico> That would make it clear that multiple parents are there
<sm> because actually you can't click on the title in plone skin, you must click backlinks
<sm> it doesn't add parent, it replaces whatever you add
<sm> whatever you had
<enrico> Yes, but how about changing the function of it?
<enrico> That'd make it very quick to add parent as "categories"
<sm> yes it's a thought.. I tried to make that form do what would be least confusing to most users
<enrico> and then you could delete parents maybe with a button next to the parent names at the top of the page
<sm> nb mouse over it for help
<sm> too many buttons & controls is a problem you see
<enrico> Yes, I know
<enrico> A "manage parents" button to the right side of the page, vertically aligned with the parents?
<sm> really I'd like to simplify that plone skin a lot
<sm> which would allow that kind of experiment
<sm> do you think anyone'd mind ?
<enrico> sm
<enrico> how about this: replace "reparent" with "add parent", then allow to and add remove parents in the "Edit wiki page"
<enrico> I turned off my brain, that that's where my hand go when I had the intention of removing parents
<enrico> s/that that's/and that's/
<sm> in edit
<enrico> sm: to simplify the plone skin you should coordinate with jdub and the effort to change the look of the website
<enrico> I know they made a contest for a new look
<sm> jdub ? ok
<sm> what's jdub's job title ?
<sm> does it include webmaster ?
<enrico> sm: you better add mako in Cc, though.  jdub is sometimes unresponsive
<sm> so is mako :(
<sm> so are well all of course
<enrico> I'm not sure about jdub's title, but he's the one that handled the website look contest 
<sm> not complaining, mako
<mako> sm: :)
<mako> enrico: the website look contest has been passed off to henrik omma
<sm> aha
<enrico> sm: so, that's your man :)
<enrico> mako: thanks
<sm> does henrik's job title include webmaster :)
<mako> i'm not sure
<mako> we don't really have job titles here
<sm> I want to talk to the person who can tell me yes do stuff or no don't :)
<enrico> Burgundavia: try DocteamPostHoary: that shows two parents
<mako> sm: i have been rather unresponsive this last week.. i sort of spilled water on my laptop last wendesday
<sm> yes, no problem
<sm> you and I are still going to chat about zwiki upgrades some time ?
<enrico> mako: water?  You're getting rusty my friend.  A year ago you'd spill any sort of liquid on it, EXCEPT water :)
<mako> sm: what exactly do you need right now? to upgrade teh wiki?
<Burgundavia> mako: I saw that on your blog
<sm> yes.. a one-time upgrade would be helpful
<mako> enrico: olive oil!
* Kinnison yawns
<Burgundavia> Kinnison: go to bed!
<Kinnison> Burgundavia: tempting
<Kinnison> it's only 21:27 though
<sm> I'd also like to know the process for future upgrades, and if possible get everyone's approval for it to happen on a regular schedule
<sm> but a quick upgrade today would fix several problems
<mako> sm: i don't think it's going to actually involve me
<sm> ok
<Kinnison> Burgundavia: I've only been up 14 hours. Not like you
<mako> sm: but i'm happy to help poke the necessary people for you
<mako> sm: i don't have access or knowledge about any of the component parts
<sm> ok, who to poke ?
<mako> sm: what sort of access do you need to upgrade zwiki?
<mako> sm: BTW, i appreciate your patience on this
<sm> np
<Burgundavia> Kinnison: I have now been up 21
<sm> simplest and best from my point of view: once a month  I ssh to the server, I pull the latest with darcs (preserving ubuntu-specific tweaks), I restart zope
<sm> or: every so often I ping someone at canonical to ssh in and do darcs pull
<sm> or: every so often I ping someone to install a tarball I've prepared from a ubuntu-zwiki darcs repo which I manage locally 
<sm> (in decreasing order of efficiency)
<enrico> sm: you mentioned "facets" some time ago.  That is enough for me to love you
* sm dances
<sm> mako: last time I discussed this with someone there was blather about not wanting to install darcs on the server
<mako> lets try for the second one
<mako> ok.. lets try the third one :)
<sm> let's try for the second ! :)
<mako> alright.. :)
<sm> I can make tarballs if necessary, but it's waste work
<sm> and I'll do it less often
* mako nods
<mako> yeah.. working with the admins and getting accounts has proved problematic in the past
<sm> the main thing is to get contact with someone who can and will do upgrades
<sm> how it's done is not so important I guess
<mako> sm alright, i think elmo is going to the one we're going to need to deal with
<mako> but we should check with henrik first to make sure he doesn't haev the power to do this
<mako> when he is on IRC he is hno73
<sm> ok.. I've chatted with elmo briefly
<sm> thx
<mako> let me know if anybody needs prodding
<sm> thx
<sm> later all !
<skyrider> sm-afk: alive?
<skyrider> sm-afk: I've fixed that page. Waiting for you...
<sm-afk> skyrider: just copying the html from sandbox.. I don't need these class="reference" do I ?
<sm-afk> the original doesn't have them
<skyrider> where did you see class="reference"???
<skyrider> I've written in in pure ReST
<sm-afk> maybe there's one in the original
<sm-afk> ok.. I copied html from the rendered wiki page, since I need html
<sm-afk> no problem
<skyrider> ok. BTW, I think class="reference" defines small globe picture in CSS for links.
<sm-afk> ah 
<sm-afk> better ?
<sabmoc> what is a good reasource for learning to customize a wiki?
<sm-afk> double globe, fixed
<sm-afk> sabmoc: different people mean different things by that.. you mean..
<skyrider> sm-afk: looks good. Thank you very much.
<sm-afk> glad to help
<sabmoc> sm-afk, the Local Canadian team just got its own website
<sabmoc> sm-afk, I haven't run a wiki before, and we're going to need to customize it.
<sm-afk> sabmoc: a zwiki ?
<sabmoc> sm-afk, yes, matthias set it up for us just today
<sm-afk> cool
<sabmoc> yeah :)
<sm-afk> http://zwiki.org , administrator's guide, QuickReference, and #zwiki
<sm-afk> let's talk more later
<sabmoc> sm-afk, ok 
<sabmoc> thank you
<sm-afk> np
* sm-afk obeys the nick
#ubuntu-doc 2006-03-27
<LaserJock> hi theCore 
<LaserJock> I gotta run a quick errand, I'll be back in ~10 min.
<Burgundavia> salut robitaille
<robitaille> bonsoir Burgundavia 
<LaserJock> hi Burgundavia and robitaille 
<Burgundavia> ogra congratulates the server guide people for good writing
<Burgundavia> check out the third from the bottom item
<Burgundavia> http://www.gnome.org/~seth/storage/features.html
<LaserJock> Burgundavia: "He who ignores history is doomed to repeat it"?
<theCore> Burgundavia: I didn't know something like was being developped
<theCore> Burgundavia: like that*
<LaserJock> oh, hi theCore 
<theCore> Burgundavia: It remind me an article 
<theCore> hello LaserJock
<theCore> http://www.codinghorror.com/blog/archives/000461.html
<LaserJock> interesting, I've noticed some of that with my wife
<LaserJock> in Windows I'll ask her where she saved a file, "Word" she says
<LaserJock> Then I have to go an hunt down where exactly she put it (usually I can just reopen the save dialog and figure out which directory she was in)
<theCore> Burgundavia: how far the development of GNOME Storage is?
<bhuvan> LaserJock: ping
<LaserJock> bhuvan: pong
<bhuvan> LaserJock, i suggest you to use entities for packaging guide
<LaserJock> yeah, for what?
<bhuvan> you can include title, revision, distro, etc. in generic/libs/generic.ent and use them
<bhuvan> thus, imo, it would be easy to update the title, distro in future ..
<LaserJock> ok, I use a couple. I just haven't had a chance to go through and figure out what all  should be entities
<LaserJock> hmm, apparently I'm using libs/global.ent . Is there a reason to use generic/libs/generic.ent?
<bhuvan> i guess it's specific to generic documents;
<LaserJock> ok, makes sense
<bhuvan> each ubuntu, kubuntu has seperate .ent files; so, generic does;
* robotgeek tries to put in xincludes
<Madpilot> hi robotgeek 
<robotgeek> hey Madpilot 
<LaserJock> hi robotgeek and Madpilot 
<robotgeek> hey LaserJock 
<robotgeek> Madpilot: hmm, is it normal to get not  validate error when you try ../../../validate.sh getting-started.xml in Ubuntu Desktop Guide
<Madpilot> it worked last time I tried it
<robotgeek> sorry, nvm
* robotgeek is blind
<Madpilot> it works here, with current SVN
<robotgeek> yeah, sorry for the alarm, cdpath confusion error
<robotgeek> how do you put something at the beginning of a file, instead of appending
<robotgeek> mdke: i have put in xincludes in the desktop guide, it "works"
<Burgundavia> Madpilot: salut
<Madpilot> hi Burgundavia 
<Burgundavia> bhuvan: ogra congratulates you on excellent server guide
<bhuvan> Burgundavia, hmm, ok
<Burgundavia> I need some good book recommendations for intermediate and advanced commandline usage
<bhuvan> did you mean good book on bash commands ?
<Burgundavia> more general commandline usage
<Burgundavia> something oreilly would be great
<bhuvan> Burgundavia, http://www.tatamcgrawhill.com/digital_solutions/sumitabhadas/
<robotgeek> Burgundavia: hmm, a great deal is present in the advanced bash sctipting guide, install abs-guide 
<Madpilot> Linux in a Nutshell
<bhuvan> i second "Linux in a Nutshell". it is an excellent book. http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1565925858/102-3898337-9647308?v=glance&n=283155
<Madpilot> it's a great fat book, though - a reference rather than a tutorial book
<Burgundavia> Madpilot: oh, fyi, Ufo:ai has resumed development
<Madpilot> very cool!
<robotgeek> funny, the Kubuntu Desktop Guide doesn't generate clickable email link, while the rest of the docs do
<Burgundavia> you might also want to check out Galaxy Mage
<robotgeek> Burgundavia: the other day, you mentioned a screencast recording program, bynaz or something, you have a link?
<Burgundavia> byzanz
<Burgundavia> http://www.gnomefiles.org/app.php?soft_id=1261
<robotgeek> thanks
<Madpilot> Burgundavia, some of Galaxy Mage's art looks like it was borrowed from Wesnoth :P
<Burgundavia> Madpilot: gpl baby!
<Madpilot> http://www.galaxymage.org/index.php/Image:Screenshot-prealpha-05.jpg <-- the mounted thing on the end of the drawbridge is, I'm pretty sure, Wesnoth's undead cav unit
<Madpilot> vive le GPL, etc :P
<Burgundavia> all the art for the first few releases is Wesnoth
<Burgundavia> this gets you off the ground with decent looking art, so you can attract the artists
<Madpilot> good for them - Wesnoth might wind up 'mentoring' a bunch of games
<Burgundavia> wesnoth has truly been an open source success story
* Burgundavia waits for the day Ubuntu is on the front page of BBC
<Burgundavia> mdke: I love the new browser start page. It is compact, easy to parse and help users as well as us
<robotgeek> -> bed
<Madpilot> WTF? Check the history of https://wiki.ubuntu.com/RootSudo - someone just added a really f'd up looking piece of advice, which Seveas deleted...
<Burgundavia> digg had something about sudo os X
<Burgundavia> and how to break it
<Madpilot> some moron evidently found out that it worked in Ubuntu too...
<Burgundavia> fun
<Madpilot> Burgundavia, is there a way to convince MoinMoin to show all edits by a given user?
<Burgundavia> Madpilot: nope
<Madpilot> too bad
<Burgundavia> afaik
<Burgundavia> the data is there, it is just not an easy to do
<mdke> Burgundavia, oh thanks.
<mdke> robotgeek_zzz, rock
<mdke> bhuvan, I read through the email section last night. it's good, but the postfix section is a bit confusing. The other thing I'd say about the language is don't use "Please do x" or "You can do x". Just say "Do x" :)
<bhuvan> mdke, ok
<mdke> bhuvan, the other thing was, how come postfix is used for the email section, but exim in the mailman section? maybe there could be a section on exim and postfix in the email section, and then refer to it in the mailman section?
<mdke> oh and another thing, I think synaptic can be removed from the packaging.xml file for the same reasons as gnome-app-install was removed: it's gnome only and UI only
<bhuvan> mdke, postfix is in main; exim is in universe; i guess, we should make changes to mailman to use exim if we have not already
<bhuvan> mdke, yeah we can remove synaptic; i'll do that
<mdke> cool
<mdke> you mean we should make changes to mailman to use postfix?
<bhuvan> yep
<bhuvan> mdke, i'm again facing an issue with sample/*. this time it is with serverguide
<mdke> bhuvan, ok, I'm sure we can fix that
<mdke> by the way, exim is in main too, i think
<bhuvan> i referred http://packages.ubuntu.com/dapper/allpackages.en.txt.gz; but, it doesnt seem to be ?
<mdke> http://packages.ubuntu.com/dapper/mail/exim4-base
<mdke> for some reason the exim4 metapackage is in universe
<bhuvan> mdke, ok
<mdke> bhuvan, they are moving it to main
<mdke> -> work
<bhuvan> mdke, ok; so we'll include both postfix and exim in mail services section ?
* mdke checks the cricket before going to work
<mdke> bhuvan, if you have time, I don't see why not
<bhuvan> mdke, ok
* bhuvan enjoys watching this match
<mdke> oh awesome
<mdke> should be 1-1
<bhuvan> yeah :)
<mdke> see ya in a bit
<bhuvan> sure
<silvo> Hej
<trappist> do my activities here somehow affect my malone karma?  it just shot up from ~250 to ~50,000 and I haven't been that active with bugs
<mdke> trappist, no, the karma system has just changed
<mdke> or rather, yeah, the more reviewing of our docs you do, the more karma you get *honest*
<trappist> ;)
<robotgeek> heh, my karma is ~40K. they changed it quite a bit, from 300 -> 40K, quite a jump 
<robotgeek> mdke: the status page for Kubuntu Desktop Guide isn't being generated! help!
<robotgeek> mdke: nvm, found it and fixed it
<robotgeek> it would be nice to somehow differentiate between exernal links, and links with the document
<ompaul> I went to 618 from 18
<ompaul> mad I tell ya its all mad :)
<ompaul> Burgwork, got 3 mins?
<Burgwork> ompaul, yep
<ompaul> Burgwork, just a random idea, the www.ubuntu.com site has a fair few locked documents in it, I was thinking that if they were on wiki.ubuntu.com/website/* they could be changed little by little until someone comes along and says "this could do with being made live"
<ompaul> done :)
<Burgwork> ompaul, if you want to work on a doc, I can copy it over, ala the faq
<ompaul> okay, I'll find something :)
<ompaul> I'll poke you in a few hours
<Burgwork> there is already Website/Desktop on the wiki
<Burgwork> sure
* ompaul goes there
<LaserJock> Burgwork: you like MediaWiki, right?
<Burgwork> yes I do
<LaserJock> I was thinking that some of the discussion going on in the ML would be helped by having /talk pages
<Burgwork> yes, it would
<k31th> im baned from ububtu for some reason!
<k31th> can some one unban me ?
<LaserJock> it seems like it would allow for discussion about pages. Right now it seems like there isn't a good way to discuss a page
<k31th> ?
<k31th> can some one ask for me to be unbaned 
<LaserJock> k31th: just a sec
<k31th> thanks
<LaserJock> hmm, well I don't know if there are any admins in #ubuntu at the moment
<Burgwork> what do you need?
<k31th> to be un baned
<Burgwork> k31th, if you are banned from #ubuntu, it should be stated why
<k31th> no.
<k31th> i disconnected now i try to go in the chan and it says baned
<k31th> 18:42 -!- Cannot join to channel #ubuntu (You are banned)
<Burgwork> k31th, when were you last in #ubuntu?
<k31th> well i thought i was in there today bu i was deff in there yesterday
<k31th> i idle there
<k31th> and help n00bs tbh.
<Burgwork> and when did you find out you were banned?
<k31th> when i just tried to connect
<Burgwork> which nick do you usually go under?
<k31th> k31th
<k31th> seems they baned my ip
<Burgwork> just a sec
<manicka> Laserjock: Kassetra can't help with #ubuntu
<LaserJock> manicka: I know, I need her for something else
<Burgwork> k31th, I see evidence you called someone a n00b and said WTF to another
<k31th> where ?
<k31th> when
<manicka> k
<Burgwork> http://people.ubuntu.com/~fabbione/irclogs/ubuntu-2006-03-21.html
<Burgwork> search for your nick
<k31th> im sure i ment it in the nicest possible way 
<Burgwork> regardless, those are not acceptable things to say in #ubuntu or any ubuntu channel
<k31th> oh
<k31th> i called dash- a n00b and richardp  they both work here lol
<k31th> i think iv helped many and offened no one
<k31th> and tbh i find it a little harsh
<trappist> 18:03 -!- k31th is now known as IkillJEWS
<trappist> 18:04 -!- IkillJEWS is now known as k31th
<trappist> 18:47 -!- k31th [n=keith@87.117.194.66]  has left #ubuntu [requested by nalioth: "you should know better"] 
<trappist> that probably didn't help
<LaserJock> yikes
<mdke> LaserJock, you can make talk pages on the wiki. perhaps we should encourage their use
<Burgwork> k31th, with that, I don't think I will unban you. You should know better
<Burgwork> trappist, good catch
<mdke> although there is more than half an hour between the nickchange and the ban, so there may have been another reason
<trappist> mdke: that was the output of /last k31th on #ubuntu, so if he said anything else it wasn't as k31th
<mdke> hmm
<mdke> oh well
<Burgwork> odd the 1/2 hour gap
<trappist> yeah
<Burgwork> likely nobody saw it
* mdke shrugs
<mdke> #ubuntu is a weird channel
<Burgwork> as I said to Seveas yesterday, happily I no longer have time to follow #ubuntu
<LaserJock> It gives me a headache :(
<mdke> i don't go there much
<mdke> but it seems that they can be a bit pushy in there
<trappist> that's true
<mdke> "our way is best" sort of thing
<trappist> I got jumped on for a 1-line paste because... no pasting
<mdke> heh
<Burgwork> it really is busy and they need to be vigilant
<mdke> when I was at university
<mdke> the porters there would be a bit like that, and bitch at you for any reason
<mdke> i came to the conclusion it was because they liked to think they were really powerful
<Burgwork> mdke is an old man.  Here come the "When I was..'
<Burgwork> stories :)
<mdke> lol
<mdke> i was reading the server guide yesterday
<mdke> it is not bad, but will need some language love and accuracy testing I think
<mdke> if we have time
<trappist> I got the language love
<trappist> and some time, though not as much as i had last week
<LaserJock> trappist: I've got the status report for the Packaging Guide going too ;-)
<mdke> cool cool
<trappist> excellent
<LaserJock> I think anything with "Awaiting Review" you can have at
<trappist> rockin.
<LaserJock> I'm going to trim off some stuff and focus on the rest
<mdke> the server guide could probably do with a bit more procedure lists, I think. There are too many "Next do this, next do this" paragraphs
<k31th> Burgwork: WAT
<Burgwork> k31th, sorry?
<k31th> Burgwork: i didnt do that i swear
<Burgwork> it is your IP and your nick
<k31th> yeah
<k31th> but didnt do it 
<k31th> i wont explain my self any futher you can belive me or not 
<robotgeek> trappist: can you paste me that oneliner using readline and stuff?
<trappist> robotgeek: I don't remember what we were talking about
<robotgeek> trappist: for validating modified documents
<trappist> oh, I'll have to try to do it from memory: svn stat | egrep '^M' | while read line; do ./validate.sh $line; done
<robotgeek> trappist: cool.thanks. i'll wikify this time :)
<trappist> :)
<trappist> that only validates modified files, btw
<trappist> svn stat | egrep '^M.+\.xml$' | while read line; do ./validate.sh $line; done
<trappist> to only get xml files
<robotgeek> trappist: thanks, that will avoid my for in `ls *.xml`
<Burgwork> robotgeek, you are Namaan no (my brain is very very tired)
<robotgeek> Burgwork: nope, i am Venkat Raghavan. bustacap
<robotgeek> bustacap is naaman
<Burgwork> ah
<Burgwork> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/HowTo <-- umm
<LaserJock> very informative
<Burgwork> nuke it?
<LaserJock> I hate nuking things but if you don't know what a HowTo is already I'm not sure how you are supposed to find that page
<LaserJock> and I don't think it has any relevance really
#ubuntu-doc 2006-03-28
<LaserJock> yeah! I found ^O in vim today
<robotgeek> hey Burgwork 
<robotgeek> Burgundavia: err :)
<Burgundavia> salut robotgeek
<Burgundavia> just saw V for Vendetta. Excellent
<robotgeek> nice. i will try to catch it soon
<jsgotangco> you like dthat movie?
<jsgotangco> DELL
<jsgotangco> :)
<robotgeek> jsgotangco: now, you've confused me. heh
<crimsun> well, I'd go see it for Ms. Portman's performance
<jsgotangco> robotgeek: DELL
<robotgeek> jsgotangco: yes. dell + alienware?
<jsgotangco> ywahoo synaptics works
<Burgundavia> brb, seeing if the synaptics fixed worked
<Burgundavia> jsgotangco: think I should close the synaptics bug? it works for me too
<jsgotangco> sounds good to me
<jsgotangco> you can just put a line telling people to reopen just in case
<jsgotangco> but i think it works now, tried in 2 laptops
<Burgundavia> I changed to need info with a note about it
<robotgeek> jsgotangco: is it the one in which the touchpad is too low?
<robotgeek> slow, err
<Burgundavia> yes
<robotgeek> great, good to know
<jsgotangco> yes
<jsgotangco> it should work now
<Burgundavia> salut Madpilot
<Madpilot> hi Burgundavia 
<robotgeek> hey Madpilot manicka 
<Madpilot> hi robotgeek 
<manicka> hey
<Madpilot> OK, that's very odd - my LP karma has just gone from around 40 to 2139 - huh?
<robotgeek> Madpilot: i'm at 40K
<Madpilot> wow
<robotgeek> 40850, trappist was close to 50K 
<Madpilot> I'm just not sure why the sudden huge jump - all I've done in the last few weeks is file a few bugs :P
<robotgeek> Bug Management 4985, Specification Tracking 35865
<Burgundavia> mine is 80k
<Madpilot> where does LP give the breakdown of where you earned your karma?
<robotgeek> Madpilot: go to your page, and overview Karma
<Madpilot> ah - of course I missed it, it was right at the top of the list :P
<robotgeek> -> bed. later
<Madpilot> later, robotgeek 
<Madpilot> night all
<bhuvan> mdke: ping
<jjesse> how can i help to get the desktop guide for kubuntu finished?
* Kamping_Kaiser hands jjesse a trout to hit robotgeek_zzz with
<jsgotangco> ubuntu rooter?
<jsgotangco> wiki team spin off?
<jsgotangco> :)
<jjesse> you like that :)
<jsgotangco> jjesse: i wouldn't say i like it but if its needed, so be it
<jjesse> i guess it came out of my earlier rant about another possible documentation project
<jsgotangco> there's an wiki team at LP under the doc team, but so far, its more of a social networking team heh
<jjesse> i think there should be
<jjesse> somethng more then social networking
<jsgotangco> it would be nice if they can receive wiki bugs
<mdke> that would be limited to wish-list bugs only, tbh. If you have time to file a bug about a minor error, you have time to fix it yourself. As for wishlist things, we need to work on pages like CategoryCleanup, WikiToDo, etc
<jsgotangco> i'd really say moin is hurting the wiki in terms of management and presentation
<mdke> why?
<jsgotangco> oh i have my reasons, i'm used to the mediawiki way and it does things better
<jsgotangco> i use it at work and for a huge au portal and it does wonders
<mdke> but what are your reasons?
<jsgotangco> like i said, i prefer the mediawiki workflow of management
<jjesse> i don't know much about wikis to be honest, but why the decision to use moin over a different type of wiki?
<jsgotangco> it used to be zwiki but that's a forgettable episode of ubuntu wiki
<mdke> preferring mediawiki is not a reason that moin is hurting our wiki
<jsgotangco> bah just look at wikipedia
<jsgotangco> im not saying we change it
<jsgotangco> it is a personal preference
<jsgotangco> when did personal opinion become taboo here?
<jsgotangco> :P
<mdke> never
<jsgotangco> whatever
<mdke> hmm
* mdke doesn't get that
<jjesse> that was wierd
<mdke> i thought I was saying something conciliatory
<jjesse> like i said before i don't know much about wikis, but does each wiki program have different formating "language"?
<mdke> yeah
<mdke> it's a pain, each wiki's formatting tends to vary a bit
<jjesse> that seems a little silly
<mdke> agreed. That's what happens when projects develop individually though
<trappist> maybe it's because I've gotten used to it, but I really like trac's wiki markup
<qgil> hi there, a comment about installing Java in Dapper: http://help.ubuntu.com/starterguide/C/ch03s02.html
<qgil> wouldn't be easier to just recomment to install j2re1.4-mozilla-plugin and dependencies with synaptic?
<qgil> hi Burgwork  :)
<mdke> qgil, that is the breezy guide. But yes, you are right
<qgil> (sorry, I always get confused)
<mdke> I'll make a note to have a look at it for dapper
<qgil> ok, thank you
<mdke> but i think we'll try and include information to get a full java installation up too
<qgil> as far as you state that most users will be happy with the mozilla plugin, why not
<qgil> ok, I will come back whenever I find more possible improvements, thank you for your work
<jjesse> robotgeek_zzz: how can i help out the desktopguide?
<LaserJock> theCore: hi
<theCore> bonjour LaserJock :)
<theCore> LaserJock: how the PG is going?
<LaserJock> well, it's going
<LaserJock> I think I'm going to get rid of the "Advanced" chapter for Dapper
<theCore> lol, obviously we need someone advanced to do this chapter
<LaserJock> well, I just need more time.
<LaserJock> I'd rather focus on getting the other stuff in better shape
<theCore> LaserJock: do you use VI for editing ?
<LaserJock> g/vim
<theCore> hmm, that why my indenting is not the same ... 
<LaserJock> theCore: what are you using?
<theCore> Emacs
<LaserJock> sometimes I think my indenting is weird. I'm still learning vim (started out with emacs)
<theCore> why the switch?
<theCore> I switched to emacs from vim 
<theCore> to me, emacs seem more powerful, but I don't want to start another editor war here 
<LaserJock> lol, no flames here
<LaserJock> emacs just seem like *too* much
<LaserJock> I just want an editor
<theCore> do you know if there is a DocBook mode for Emacs?
<theCore> or, I have to stick with the SGML mode ?
<LaserJock> I think there is only the sgml mode
<LaserJock> I also seem faster in vim because it uses more regular keys instead of Ctrl or Meta everythin
<LaserJock> but there are still some things that I can do much faster with emacs (some data processing stuff I do)
<theCore> in vim, instead, you have to switch between the editing mode to the command mode, if time you want to move your cursur
<theCore> cursor*
<theCore> s/if/each/
<LaserJock> well, I usually use the arrow keys so it isn't a big deal, but getting used to the different modes is something I'm still working on 
<theCore> however, you can use those nice regex :)
<LaserJock> My goal is to be able to use both pretty well. I like both and I use both.
<LaserJock> but so far I haven't found much that I do in emacs that I can't do in vim so they seem pretty comparable as far as "power" to me
<theCore> I use vi when I want edit config file, it works better than emacs
<theCore> for most peoples, vi as the same power as nano (same thing with emacs) 
<theCore> they just don't use all the shortcut
<theCore> nobody does actually
<LaserJock> I usually use nano for config files and quick edits, g/vim for docs , and emacs for data processing stuff (mostly since I'm not very fast with vim yet)
<theCore> I wonder if a dot-file-exchange-o-thon exist ...
<trappist> there's a lot of .vimrc snippets at vim.org
<trappist> and lots of people publish theirs where google can find them
<LaserJock> trappist: do you use gvim at all?
<trappist> nah, just vim
<trappist> I do like gvim on windows though
<LaserJock> I'm using gvim in OSX but for some reason it isn't loading the xml ftplugin
<trappist> where did you put it, and is it in gvim's runtimepath
<LaserJock> well, that's the thing. It is fine in vim and it seems to see settings in .vim but it just isn't loading in gvim
<LaserJock> it might be just a bug
<LaserJock> yep, it seems to be my OSX port. I installed gvim from fink and it works fine
<theCore> LaserJock: I got to go now, I will probably mail my diff later
<robotgeek> damn, missed jjesse
<robotgeek> anyways, later
#ubuntu-doc 2006-03-29
<robotgeek> howdy LaserJock 
<LaserJock> hi robotgeek 
<LaserJock> robotgeek: ping?
<robotgeek> LaserJock: pong
<LaserJock> robotgeek: does KDE have a Science menu?
<robotgeek> LaserJock: hmm, no. Good idea :)
<LaserJock> It might be under "Educational"
<LaserJock> I'm having a bit of a "discussion" on ubuntu-science about .desktop files and Science menus
<robotgeek> LaserJock: on the list?
<LaserJock> yes
* robotgeek parses
<robotgeek> LaserJock: as long as it doesn't change, i'm okay. i generally install stuff and verify
<LaserJock> robotgeek: as long as what doesn't change?
<robotgeek> LaserJock: the menu entries
<LaserJock> robotgeek: well, the point is really we are trying to add menu entries but do we add then to Education or Science
<robotgeek> i don't mind education myself :)
* LaserJock whaps robotgeek over the head with the 3rd volume of the Feynman Lectures ;-)
<robotgeek> heh
* robotgeek is trying to find if he can borrow/access rutgers library
<LaserJock> well, it really isn't a big deal since I'd rather see the apps in Education rather than not there at all
<LaserJock> but I just don't see why it is so evil to put them in Science
<robotgeek> not evil, it's the Motu-Science team, isn't it 
<LaserJock> well, it seems like every time I suggest we use Science for scientific things somebody has to say, "Just put it under education"
<LaserJock> anyway, </rant> :-)
<robotgeek> Science  goes hand in hand with education,...
<robotgeek> bbl. food!
<LaserJock> yes, but they aren't the same thing. that is my point
<LaserJock> yeah, I gotta get home
<robotgeek> later LaserJock 
<LaserJock> maybe I just have to adopt my inner teacher  ;-)
<Madpilot> hi all
<Burgundavia> salut Madpilot
<Madpilot> Burgundavia, I know you've mentioned not blogging because you don't want planet.u.c to turn into "Planet Corey" - but given that it seems to be "Planet Jeff" right now, I'd go ahead... :P
<Madpilot> you could blog this: http://www.tectonic.co.za/view.php?src=rss&id=933
<Kyral> hmm
<Kyral> who is in charge of the ServerGuide?
<Burgundavia> nah, that is boring
<Madpilot> Kyral, bhuvan & Brian Shumate are, according to https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/Projects
<Kyral> hmm
<Kyral> I stumbled onto a nice Server Monitoring tool (That seems to be good for Xen as well!) and I'd like to write up a little ditty on it
<Kyral> called Munin
<Madpilot> Kyral, you could write it up and send it to the ML, either in plain text or as a 'proper' patch/diff to our XML - or just ask about it on the ML first
<Kyral> yah I should
<Kyral> but not now..
<Kyral> I have been coding for 10 hours
<Kyral> I need a shower
<Madpilot> beer might be a good idea too :P
<Kyral> underage
<LaserJock> hi Madpilot Burgundavia and Kyral 
<crimsun> "legal" friends.
<Madpilot> hi LaserJock 
<robotgeek> hey all
<LaserJock> hi robotgeek 
* Kyral yawns
<Kyral> tomorrow I'll slap something in the Wiki about Munin
<Madpilot> Kyral, bhuvan is one of the Server Guide authors
<Kyral> Yah I know
<Kyral> but Kyral.conscious == False now :P
<Madpilot> heh. fair enough.
<Kyral> Oh if you wanna see Munin going live, I have it on my Xen server
<Kyral> azuredreams.us/munin
<Madpilot> shiny graphs - cool
<Kyral> Keep in mind there is only one "real" machine :P
<Kyral> The others are Xen Domains
<Madpilot> anyone know what "Kiss Alexandru" is talking about in his email to the list?
<Burgundavia> no idea
<Burgundavia> I rather successfully ignored it
<Burgundavia> getting good at that
<rob> troll?
<Madpilot> ESL, more than troll, I think
<rob> not much more, its pretty poorly written
<Madpilot> wonder what he means by "rooter" documentation?
<rob> router?
<Madpilot> maybe
<rob> I'd like to see the wiki team promoted more, but then I'd like to see everything documentation-wise promoted more
<Madpilot> yeah - I just don't see the point in splitting the list & team(s) up. Fragmented efforts usually have even more trouble, not less...
<Burgundavia> we are just building critical mass on the wiki
<rob> well, the thing is a lot of people are unaware the is a Wiki Team, or even offical docs or a Doc team for that matter
<Burgundavia> crazy to split now
<rob> I dunno, there would be benefits such as more exposure for the wiki team
<Madpilot> every time I've been involved in a list and someone says, "Oh, <issue X> has lots of interest, but it's not important to everyone, let's form "mailing-list-X" for discussions" mailing-list-X usually dies within weeks, and any discussion of 'X' wanders back to the main list...
<rob> I wouldn't split the mailing list itself, but maybe its own IRC channel would help
<Madpilot> Just for visibility? Sure
<manicka> the wiki (userdocs specifically) is in desperate need of some more love. Naaman has a lot of energy but not much support from what i can see
<Madpilot> (yay, another channel for XChat to auto-join on startup!) :P
<rob> that, and I think people are a little intimidated by the doc team
<rob> even though they shouldn't be
<Madpilot> we try not to bite people who wander in by mistake... 
<rob> oh, I know, but I think people might be a little more confatable with a wiki-spesific channel
<rob> bah me spell good
<manicka> I can't see the benefit of that rob, the same people would just inhabit both channels
<Madpilot> manicka, I think Namaan's re-org of UserDocs was done single-handed mostly because most of us weren't quite sure what he was aiming for, so we stayed out of the way
<rob> initially yes
<mdke> morning
<rob> hi mdke 
<manicka> hi
<rob> its a thought, kind of a random one I just had as we were discussing it
<Burgundavia> we can have #ubuntu-wiki redirect here
<rob> Burgundavia, yes
<Madpilot> manicka, there are lots of overlapping channels that work OK, though - #html/#web/#css is one set I'm on regularly
<Burgundavia> or we can release the movie "Doc team does wiki"
<mdke> Burgundavia, ++ :-)
<Burgundavia> personally, I think the movie would have more impact, but others may disagree...
<rob> Burgundavia, all that would need is for seveas to request it
<mdke> the movie?
<rob> or jdub, has to be a contact
<mdke> seveas has friends in hollywood...
<Madpilot> no, the channel-redirect :P
<Burgundavia> canonical will sponsor a movie for us? Can they just hire one of use instead?
<rob> just find an old movie and dub over the top
<mdke> let's shoot it ourselves
<Madpilot> "DocTeam Does Wiki" - Burgundavia, remind me to punch you next time you come over...
<Burgundavia> with our rate of attrition, it would have to be a snuff film
<rob> hmm.. 17 open channels on a 19 inch screen doesn't all fit on the xchat tab list :(
<Madpilot> buy a bigger screen
<mdke> Madpilot, you take requests for punching Burgundavia?
* mdke gets out his wallet
<Madpilot> mdke, I could probably be persuaded, yes... :D
<rob> 120 could get messy
<mdke> heh
<mdke> what's a flash website?
<mdke> found one
<rob> http://www.poetv.com/video.php?vid=1613
<rob> oh
<mdke> i wonder if the easiest way of installing flash is simply to click on a flash animation in firefox and follow the instructions
<mdke> oh damn, installation failed
<Burgundavia> that forums are reporting that as well
<mdke> ok, /me tries flashplugin-nonfree
<mdke> that doesn't work either
<mdke> bugger
<Madpilot> get the .run file from Macromedia - that'll work in all browsers, too, not just FF
<mdke> it works?
<mdke> sounds better than nothing
<mdke> i'll try it later on
<Burgundavia> we might also want to ping a MOTU to get the package fixed
<mdke> good plan
<Madpilot> the Macromedia file works in Breezy, not sure about Dapper
<k31th> Morning all
<Madpilot> night all
<Madpilot> :P
<mdke> good night
<bhuvan> does DesktopTeam have an irc channel ?
<bhuvan> mdke: ping
<robitaille> bhuvan: according to the wiki: #ubuntu-desktop
<robitaille> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Bugs/TeamSpecifics
<bhuvan> robitaille, thanks
* bhuvan is preparing a presentation on "Contributing to Ubuntu Linux"
<bhuvan> it is available here: http://puggy.symonds.net/~bhuvan/ubuntu/ubuntu_contribute.odp
<bhuvan> feedbacks are welcome!
<mdke> bhuvan, pong
<mdke> cool
<bhuvan> mdke: if you have time, can you go through the presentation ?
<mdke> bhuvan, sure I'll take a look
<mdke> mgalvin, nice tip about munin. do you know if it searches existing log files, or just starts to archive when you install it?
<mgalvin> mdke: I used it on a clean install so I'm not totally sure I don't think so. I think it starts archiving from the time it gets installed
<mdke> i think so too
<robotgeek> jjesse: ping
<jjesse> robotgeek: pong
<robotgeek> jjesse: need help with the help wanted sections :)
<jjesse> status page is where again?  i forgot to book mark it :)
<robotgeek> http://doc.ubuntu.com/kubuntu/status/kdg-report.html
<jjesse> thanks
<mhz> hi guys
<mhz> Does any of you have or know of any syllabus (with objectives and all) for a course of office applications (firefox, thunderbird, abiword, gnumeric, and ooo) ?
#ubuntu-doc 2006-03-30
<mhz> guys, I know we have discussed about "alternative ways" to generate and work with XMLs
<mhz> Has any of you ever tried Texmacs
<mhz> I know it is meant for scientific texts
<mhz> BUT
<LaserJock> for .xml ?
<mhz> LaserJock: oh, well, IMHO, xml = docbook
<mhz> :D
<mhz> far from reality?
<LaserJock> so what are you doing?
<mhz> texmacs does allow to export to XML or Save As "Scheme"
<LaserJock> well, so does openoffice ;-)
<mhz> yeah, but I remember we dont use OOO for some reason
<mhz> do same reasons apply to Texmacs?
<LaserJock> well, I think it depends on how "nice" or clean the XML is that it outputs
<LaserJock> I wonder if texmaker can output to XML too?
<LaserJock> I do a far amount of latex but I usually use emacs or vim
<mhz> well, as you know, I know just the theory of Latex and xml
<mhz> so, I could hardly tell how clean the output is
<john_the_linux_n> Hey guys
<john_the_linux_n> Any ubuntu guys free for a couple of questions?
<LaserJock> hi john_the_linux_n 
<john_the_linux_n> its supposed to read newbie
<john_the_linux_n> I've been playing with this for a couple of days
<rob> john_the_linux_n, try #ubuntu
<rob> this isn't a help channel :)
<john_the_linux_n> Oh sorry guys
<LaserJock> np
<Burgwork> why do so many people assume -doc is a help channel?
* Burgwork is baffled
<rob> dunno
<Burgwork> anyway, I am leaving work now
<`6og> is moving a wiki page an easy process or do i have to delete it then re add it?
<Burgundavia> `6og: what page do you want to move?
<Burgundavia> `6og: oh, and your nick is really really annoying to type
<Burgundavia> thanks
<kgoetz> should be easier
<Burgundavia> it was made worse by thefact that the ` is not labelled as such on my laptop, it being a physically a UK keyboard, but logically a US one
<kgoetz> Burgundavia: i want to move this page https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LaptopTestingTeam/CompaqN1000C so it has "CompaqEvoN1000C" (it's currently missing the 'Evo')
<kgoetz> heh. oh sorry.
<Burgundavia> it is pretty easy
<Burgundavia> first, click on the page title to see if there are any pages that refer to it
<Burgundavia> it so, find those links and fix them
<Burgundavia> then google the full page url "http://wiki.ubuntu...."
<Burgundavia> if you find any links out in the wild, leave a redirect behind with #REDIRECT NewPageName
<Burgundavia> but before you do that, to actually move a page, go the drop down menu on on the page and select "Move page"
<kgoetz> i'll give it a shot, thanks.
<kgoetz> wheres this drop down menu?
<Burgundavia> it is called "More Actions"
<kgoetz> oh right, the realy obvious one :$
<kgoetz> that's got it, thanks Burgundavia
<Burgundavia> kgoetz: np
* Burgundavia grumbles about implicit linking
<Burgundavia> kgoetz: for future reference https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MovingWikiPages
* kgoetz visitis
<Burgundavia> I am very glad I splurged on a $225 CDN router. download speeds are great
<Madpilot> hi all
<na7e-> howdy
<kgoetz> gday
<robitaille> hi Madpilot 
<Burgundavia> salut Madpilot, robitaille
<Madpilot> hi Burgundavia 
<Burgundavia> what are you doing tomorrow night?
<Madpilot> Saturday night? Nothing much at this point
<Burgundavia> shall you, I and clive have beer and food together?
<Madpilot> I'll ask Clive if he'll be in; he's just gone to bed
<Burgundavia> hmm, wonder why the totem-plugin is in universe
<robitaille> oh, that's why  it is not available in Firefox by default like in Breezy.  I was wondering about that
<Burgundavia> both xine and gstreamer plugins are in unvierse
<robitaille> personally I never had a good experience with that plugin in breezy; it was crashing on me more often than not
<Burgundavia> trailers.apple.com seems to be working perfectly with ffmpeg
<Madpilot> g'night all
<LaserJock> are we having a wiki meeting
<crimsun> not afaict
<crimsun> (nothing on fridge or in this channel's topic, at least)
<crimsun> (unless you meant cookbook?)
<LaserJock> well it was on the ML
<nalioth> is it meeting time?
<LaserJock> is it? I haven't seen anybody else
<nalioth> i got a msg in the ubuntu-doc mailing list for 2100 UTC today here
<LaserJock> yeah, I did too but I don't see Naaman
<LaserJock> hi duncan_nz 
<duncan_nz> (sorry I'm late)
<duncan_nz> hi lazer
<LaserJock> well we haven't started anything
* nalioth has been raiding the fridge
<duncan_nz> but we're here to talk about the wiki right?
<LaserJock> I'm always here ;-)
<duncan_nz> oh, well I'll chill and wait to see if the other turn up, with europe changing from winter to summer time tonight - it was maybe a bad day to choose.
<LaserJock> hmm, so are we going to try it again?
<nalioth> ompaul: what are you doing here?
<ompaul> nalioth, i don't know beenhere for months
<nalioth> i guess the meeting is a no-go at this time?
<duncan_nz> oops, I'm here
<duncan_nz> the window didn't start flashing...
<duncan_nz> nalioth - still there?
<nalioth> yes
<nalioth> i was just pointing out that nobody has joined (except ompaul ) since you have
<duncan_nz> oh, but you and I should talk i think :)
<nalioth> alrighty then
<LaserJock> I'm here but I'm not much help
<duncan_nz> well, are you : 	Naaman Campbell
<duncan_nz> nalioth?
<nalioth> no sir, i'm an unofficial ubuntu documentarian
<LaserJock> duncan_nz: Naaman is bustacap I think
<duncan_nz> oh, he was the one who suggested this meeting...
<duncan_nz> nalioth, I thought you were Naaman - he's the guy I need a word with.
<duncan_nz> I'll ask anyway ...
<duncan_nz> What do people suggest to make the wiki a more useful resource? (my opinion comes soon)
<LaserJock> is there a way to have a rating system or something. I think the most difficult things about the wiki are 1) finding the pages you want 2) figuring out the quality (reliability) of the page
<ompaul> one of the things that is very frustrating on the wiki has to be pages that tell the same story
<nalioth> i was under the impression that the docteam had oversight for fallacious/incomplete/etc content
<LaserJock> I don't know how defined the role of the docteam is with respect to the wiki
<duncan_nz> that's why this meeting was called - so i thought.
<nalioth> the docteam is supposed to have oversight
<duncan_nz> noone else has care of the wiki, and it _is_ documentation
<duncan_nz> I've made some proposals and keep getting shut down
<LaserJock> the wiki team is just a group of active wiki contributors
<LaserJock> the wiki is open to everybody
<duncan_nz> ah, but laser, some people are running aound reverting peoples work.
<duncan_nz> (that really pissed me off)
<LaserJock> duncan_nz: well, yes that can happen but I think that is what meetings, this channel, and the ML are fore
<duncan_nz> anyone know why we use moinmoin - it's a bit lame compared to others like what wikimedia uses.
<nalioth> yes, the wiki is open to everyone, but there must be oversight to keep "to fix your Xserver problems type 'malicious command goes here'
<LaserJock> duncan_nz: well, that has been a bit of a discussion
<LaserJock> duncan_nz: right now we are using moinmoin but we have disscussed using mediawiki in the past
<duncan_nz> i think we seriously need more features.
<LaserJock> well, I think that is a goal for sure
<ompaul> is there a specific agenda for this?
<ompaul> ohh
<duncan_nz> i'm most frustrated by the lack of internal structure.
<duncan_nz> so...
<LaserJock> BetterWikiDocs is a spec on what the doc team would like to do with the wiki
<ompaul> it is now 22:33 UTC
* nalioth pours a case of nuac mham on ompaul. No agenda
<duncan_nz> I suggested that a link to FrontPage be placed on every user homepage with a note about why.
<LaserJock> duncan_nz: what would that do exactly?
<LaserJock> just so users can get back to the FrontPage easily?
<duncan_nz> I hope it would be a step in making people aware that there is a place that things should have a relationship to...
<duncan_nz> At the moment people can create a page anywhere and it can so easily get lost becasue people don't know where it should be in some hierarchy.
<LaserJock> would better use of subpages help?
<duncan_nz> I think that would also help, but not much the way it is now - it'd need to be more like wikinooks.
<duncan_nz> (wikibooks)
<duncan_nz> (duncan is reading BetterWikiDocs)
<LaserJock> yeah, it would be nice to find an example of what you would like to see
<LaserJock> I just don't have enough experience with wikis to know what you can do
<duncan_nz> have a look at http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Straw_Bale_Construction
<duncan_nz> ... yes I've written a lot of it ... you'll notice when you click around that it's easy to get back up the hierarchy.
<LaserJock> yeah, that seems nice
<duncan_nz> if we want people to find help , then structure structure and predictability are key.
<LaserJock> I think if we did something like that in combination with moving the doc wiki pages it would make things much cleaner
<duncan_nz> also I think people need to move towards a standard wiki markup - and wikimedia will probably be the standard.
<LaserJock> ahh hi Burgundavia 
<LaserJock> Burgundavia: we are discussing the wiki
<duncan_nz> Have you seen the php.net online manual? Take a look: http://www.php.net/manual/en/language.operators.comparison.php
<duncan_nz> There they have a synced copy of the docs _and_ spave for comments below...
<duncan_nz> I would like to see the same thing with synced docs from each release, and wiki editing space below.
<LaserJock> yeah
<Burgundavia> LaserJock: ok
<duncan_nz> That way comments can evolve below each page and be included in the docs as the doc writers see fit.
<duncan_nz> So, if someone thinks a new seciton 'skinning ells' should be added to the 'how not to burn toast' section they just add the link in the wiki and write the new page.
<duncan_nz> This also serves the purpose of keeping the 'official' and 'community' docs clearly seperate - without divorcing them.
<duncan_nz> ...am I rambling?
<LaserJock> no
<LaserJock> I think these issues are things we have been thinking about
<duncan_nz> yes, I just gopt down to the 'Hosting of html documentation on the new wiki' section.
<duncan_nz> actually no, that looks like it's just trying to solve html issues.
<LaserJock> well, so far the spec hasn't been approved  so we are still trying to work on it
<duncan_nz> Burgundavia: I just noticed you are a WikiTeam admin. Can you add me to that team please?
<LaserJock> duncan_nz: I think the main thing is that people can more or less do whatever they want with the wiki so sometimes problems happen
<duncan_nz> Laser: surely you don't type 'duncan_nz' each time do you? I can't work out how to get your nick to come up when I'm replying to you.
<Madpilot> duncan_nz, have you proposed yourself for the team?
<LaserJock> duncan_nz: <tab> ;-)
<nalioth> duncan_nz: the <tab> key is great
<duncan_nz> according to https://launchpad.ubuntu.com/people/wikiteam/ I have to ask an admin.
<duncan_nz> TAB don't do it here? Just pressing tab? How does it know who I'm replying to?
<LaserJock> duncan_nz: the LP page says you have to be approved not that you have to ask first
<LaserJock> duncan_nz: go ahead and join and then you can be approved
<duncan_nz> so i have to ask before i can be approved right! sooo - tell me who to ask.
<LaserJock> no
<LaserJock> you join the team in LP
<nalioth> duncan_nz: type las<TAB>
<duncan_nz> nalioth: aha!
<nalioth> duncan_nz: or nal<tab>
<duncan_nz> nalioth: cool!
<LaserJock> and then the team owner/administrator will approve you
<Burgundavia> duncan_nz: can you propose yourself?
#ubuntu-doc 2006-03-31
<duncan_nz> oh, for crying out loud. I can dance naked if you want just be specific about what you would like me to do. https://wiki.ubuntu.com/WikiTeam doesn't explain.
<LaserJock> duncan_nz: go the the wikiteam LP page and click on "Join Team"
<LaserJock> it's not hard ;-)
<duncan_nz> no it's not, but everywhere I look is clutter sorrounding the thing I'm looking for...
<duncan_nz> LaserJock: I'm now officially pending. Thanks for putting up with my whinging.
<LaserJock> yeah, LP takes a little getting used to
<Madpilot> yeah, LP has a bit of UI trouble sometimes
<LaserJock> they have really improved some UI stuff for devs recently. I know they're working hard on it
<duncan_nz> Burgundavia: is that you editing the WikiTeam page? Thanks.
<Madpilot> compared to Bugzilla, LP's bug reporting setup is brilliant (but stock Bugzilla is a giant mess, so any improvement would be dramatic...)
<Madpilot> anyway, must go out. See you all in a bit.
<duncan_nz> I've got to go too, see you all another time.
<Burgundavia> yep
<nalioth> well, what a meeting
<LaserJock> for sure ;-)
<Burgundavia> LaserJock: https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+source/inkscape/+bug/36502 <-- when do you get this error?
* Burgundavia signs
<Burgundavia> sighs, even
<nalioth> ok, my unofficial ubuntu documentariat intrest has been sated
<nalioth> see y'all later
<LaserJock> Burgundavia: hmm, I don't really have access to inkscape at the moment
<LaserJock> Burgundavia: I'm CLI only right now
<LaserJock> well, that was an interesting meeting
<LaserJock> Naaman didn't make is own meeting :(
<Burgundavia> LaserJock: no, the error he got when he tried to get the build-deps
<LaserJock> doh, didn't look close enough
<Burgundavia> http://digg.com/linux_unix/Ubuntu_Flight6_(alpha)_Here <- ahh, bloody digg
<LaserJock> Burgundavia: that build-dep thing looks like he wasn't using sudo or he was using another package manager (which has the apt lock)
<LaserJock> Burgundavia: works fine for me here
<Burgundavia> LaserJock: that is what I thought
<LaserJock> I'm really starting to think that moving to a MediaWiki on doc.ubuntu.com would be the way to go
<Burgundavia> heh
<Burgundavia> it would be help.ubuntu.com
<LaserJock> well, whatever ;-)
<Burgundavia> ah, that is why 3D stuff sucks balls. Currently I do not have direct rendering enabled
<Burgundavia> brb
<Burgundavia> ok, that is too odd
<Burgundavia> ctrl-alt-bksp restarted my machine and my clock
<LaserJock> hmm, that isn't expected behavior
<Burgundavia> no
<Burgundavia> ok, lets see if I can replicate that
<Burgundavia> ok, can't replicate it
<LaserJock> that is weird but encouraging
<Burgundavia> I tried just restarting, then changing my driver back to vesa and restarting. Nothing
* Gaerik greets
<Madpilot> hi
<LaserJock> hi Gaerik 
<Gaerik> I don't want to be offtopic and bother anyone but I was trying to use the Disks Manager to format a partition and was having trouble.  When I tried to use the Helpfiles, they weren't there, so I figured I'd try to find help on IRC.
<Gaerik> I've had Ubuntu for all of 2 days and really like it at this point but I've got 18GB of hd space I need formatted and can't do it. :-)
<Madpilot> Gaerik, for general help, #ubuntu is your best bet
<Gaerik> Okay...  I popped in there but with 650 people it was hard to find help.  Is there a protocol for getting help there or is is just throw the question out and see if someone bites?
<Kamping_Kaiser> Gaerik: throuw out the question, just don't start with "i have a question"
<Gaerik> Heh... okay.  Thanks.  I'm new but I'll figure it out. 
<Kamping_Kaiser> np
<LaserJock> anybody here deployed a wiki before?
<trappist> only if trac counts
<LaserJock> hi mdke 
<trappist> There's something wrong with this sentence but I'm not familiar enough with bind to correct it: "the zone sections defines a master server, and it is stored in a file mentioned against file tag."
<Kamping_Kaiser> where can i ask for help with wiki syntax? i tried using [br]  to start new lines, but it always displays "[br] " rather then make the line break
<trappist> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/HelpOnFormatting
<trappist> I think it's [[BR] ] 
<Kamping_Kaiser> thanks. I'll try it out
<LaserJock> hi robotgeek 
<Kamping_Kaiser> trappist: that fixed me up. thanks
<trappist> cool.
<robotgeek> hey LaserJock 
<robotgeek> sorry, got distracted away from computer :)
<Madpilot> trappist, for your "zone sections" line - shouldn't it be "the zone sections define..." rather than "defines"?
<trappist> Madpilot: yeah, now that you mention it, but I was actually asking about the 2nd part of the sentence
<Madpilot> trappist, the "file tag" part? I know zip about bind, was just wondering about the grammar...
<Madpilot> hi Burgundavia 
<Burgundavia> salut Madpilot
<Burgundavia> thanks for dinner and beer
<trappist> Madpilot: I mean "stored in a file mentioned against a file tag".  I dunno what it's supposed to mean, but I suspect it's not quite right.
<Madpilot> I've got no idea what it's supposed to mean either - but you're right, it doesn't seem to make sense...
<LaserJock> hmm, yelp isn't working anymore
<Madpilot> hi robitaille 
<robitaille> Hi Madpilot 
<LaserJock> is the yelp thing just me?
<Madpilot> I don't run Dapper - but have you checked LP's bug reports?
<LaserJock> hmm, not sure
<robitaille> the yelp thing?
<LaserJock> yeah, it crashes
<robitaille> humm...it doesn't crash for me, but no documents are displayed...and I have some I/O warning in the terminal
<robitaille> /var/log/scrollkeeper.log:  Permission denied
<LaserJock> hmm, I'm not getting that exactly
<robitaille> the only thing I see in the yelp window is "Help Topics"; nothing else
<LaserJock> mine just opens up and then crashes
<LaserJock> I used to have that error but haven't had your's for a while
<LaserJock> hmm, do you think it would be ok to ship a few tarballs with the docs?
<LaserJock> actually maybe it would be better to just give a wget command
<Madpilot> what for?
<robitaille> LaserJock:  malone 34384    is that your problem?
<LaserJock> Madpilot: for the packaging guide we are using a few examples but I'm not sure how permanent they are
<LaserJock> robitaille: I'm not sure, I definately get terminal output
<robitaille> and I seem to have found my problem:  #27844
<joachim-n> hi
<Madpilot> hi
<joachim-n> do you know if the 2.14.1 version of the gnome docs will go into Dapper?
<Burgundavia> joachim-n: I believe so
<Burgundavia> 2.14.1 is going into dapper in general
<Madpilot> we do ship the upstream docs, so the gnome docs will be in Dapper somewhere
<joachim-n> cool
<joachim-n> I'm thinking about adding a general 'Contributing to GNOME' section to the GNOME User Guide
<Madpilot> you'd want to talk to Gnome's own docteam about that, I guess - we're just Ubuntu's doc monkeys
* joachim-n is  Gnome's own docteam ;)
<joachim-n> well, me and a handful of others
<Kamping_Kaiser> lol joachim-n. "i am the docteam" <grin>
<joachim-n> well... it feels that way sometimes :(
<Kamping_Kaiser> :S they know (i just lurk and make up numbers)
<joachim-n> I think I meant to type 'on' too :)
<joachim-n> anyway, I can't poach any of you lot, that wouldn't be nice
<Kamping_Kaiser> <grin>
<Kamping_Kaiser> dunno, you could poach the idlers ;)
* mdke_ waves at joachim-n 
<joachim-n> hi
<dsas> judge dredd: "I am the law", joachim-n: "I am the docteam" 
<joachim-n> not quite as glamorous though
<dsas> it's a bit safer mind.
#ubuntu-doc 2006-04-01
<LaserJock> hi robotgeek 
<Madpilot> hi all
<robotgeek> hey LaserJock 
<robotgeek> waves
<LaserJock> hiya Madpilot 
<Burgundavia> salut robitaille
<robitaille> Hi Burgundavia 
<Madpilot> hi all
<Burgundavia> salut Madpilot
<Burgundavia> how is clive liking Ubuntu?
<Madpilot> seems to like it - he just messed around for an hour or so this afternoon
<Madpilot> did the wiki team meeting yesterday happen? 
<Burgundavia> Madpilot: yes
<Madpilot> here or -meeting?
<Burgundavia> here it seems
<Burgundavia> I missed most of it
<Madpilot> anyone else subsribed to the WikiTeam page on w.u.c and seen the latest edit? He's got a point...
<robotgeek> Madpilot: most weird place to file a "bug"
<Madpilot> robotgeek, yeah - but where would I file a bug against our wiki? I'm poking around LP right now...
<robotgeek> Madpilot: not sure, really. 
<Madpilot> hmmmm
<robotgeek> lemme also join in poking lp
<robotgeek> Madpilot: the wiki team is subscribed to bugs in Ubuntu Documentation Project
<Kamping_Kaiser> it is an interesting point. the only reason i avoided it is becaue i was told to use my LP login on the wiki
<robotgeek> https://launchpad.net/people/ubuntu-doc/+assignedbugs
<Madpilot> why do we have both "Ubuntu Documentation Project" and "Ubuntu Documentation Team" teams/accounts in LP?
<Burgundavia> I have no idea
<Burgundavia> I think it is some crazy attempt to seperate them
<Burgundavia> we should merge them
<robotgeek> Burgundavia: i think there is some concept of "team" and "product" in lp
<Burgundavia> robotgeek: yes, but then we several products
<Burgundavia> server guide, desktop guide, etc.
<robotgeek> hmm, yes
<Burgundavia> hmm, doc.gwos.org hasn't died yet
<Burgundavia> shame
<Madpilot> https://launchpad.net/products/launchpad/+bug/1554/+index
<Burgundavia> mdke_: rb is not part of gnome
<Madpilot> Burgundavia, doc.gwos.org now seems to be down - been up to something this evening? :P
<Burgundavia> Madpilot: nah ;)
<Burgundavia> no, it goes down on a regular basis because there is a server that runs on the same box
<Madpilot> game server, I think you mean?
<Madpilot> daft system to provide docs, but WTF...
<Burgundavia> yep
<Madpilot> --- gwos.org ping statistics ---
<Madpilot> 8 packets transmitted, 0 received, 100% packet loss, time 7001ms
<Madpilot> they take the whole thing down... 
<Burgundavia> Madpilot: incidentally, the authors of that cyptography book need to figure out how to write more concisely
<Madpilot> yeah, but it's still not a bad book - manages to make the math digestible
<Burgundavia> ya'
<trappist> anybody read my post on the apache2 section of the serverguide?
<LaserJock> not really, sorry. Got my own doc stuff to worry about ;-)
<trappist> understood
<LaserJock> and I've never done anything with apache so I tend to tune it out 
<trappist> any idea who wrote it?
<LaserJock> hmm, nope
<trappist> I'm trying not to step on any toes, but I think it's old.  maybe for apache1.x or maybe from another distro.
<LaserJock> hmm, when did you send the email? I can't find it
<trappist> yesterday I think, lemme check
<trappist> no, saturday
<trappist> subject was Apache2 in the serverguide
<trappist> looking at it again, I can rule out that it was written for apache1.x, but it doesn't match the way we ship apache2
<LaserJock> trappist: for some reason I must have deleted that email. I found it on the archives though.
<LaserJock> trappist: bhuvan is the server guy I think so I'd ask him
<trappist> aight thanks
<LaserJock> I would think we want to make sure Apache is right for a server guide ;-)
<trappist> yeah :)
<trappist> but man it's big and appears to need a lot of work
<LaserJock> better get to work then ;-)
<mdke> trappist, if I get a few minutes I'll look at it. There is an apache2 wiki page we can draw on if the server guide needs some last minute surgery
<trappist> that's good news
<mdke> trappist, looks like it's written for apache2 on a cursory glance
<mdke> i'll take a closer look at your mail
<mdke> the problem may be a linguistic one
<trappist> mdke: yeah I said above that it does seem to be for apache2, but maybe for another distro, or maybe the way we ship apache2 has changed too much since it was written
<mdke> well you can still use apache2.conf for the server configuration, without touching the virtual host config, I think.
<trappist> you could, but it would defeat the purpose if the nifty way we organize the config files, and the guide still doesn't match what users will find in apache2.conf
<mdke> yes, I like that too
<mdke> i think the wiki page doesn't really use the sites-enabled setup either
<trappist> :/
<trappist> I think I know what I need to know to fix it, but I dunno whether I'll be able to find the time
<trappist> it's big :/
<trappist> if you guys can tell my gf how important it is, that'll make it easier to find the time :)
<mdke> haha
<mdke> i know that feeling
<mdke> I'll help
<LaserJock> trappist: yeah, my wife isn't really understanding the incredible importance of the DocStringFreeze ;-)
<trappist> mine gets the fact that we don't want to hand docs off to translators and then keep editing them, but it doesn't make her like to see me up all night on the computer :)
#ubuntu-doc 2006-04-02
<LaserJock> hi theCore 
<theCore> hey LaserJock
<theCore> I'm working on the PG now, I'm supercharged ;P
<LaserJock> great
<LaserJock> what are you working on
<theCore> I'm doing exercises
<theCore> LaserJock: the deadline is this week, right?
<LaserJock> theCore: well, it is April 6th 
<LaserJock> theCore: but we need time for review
<theCore> LaserJock: do you run Dapper?
<LaserJock> theCore: actually for the most part I run OSX and Windows (on a laptop) but I ssh to my Dapper box and a sarge box that has a Dapper chroot
<theCore> okay, then you can't help me with my problem ... 
<theCore> can you ssh -X on OS X ?
<theCore> LaserJock: basic.xml is becoming unmaintainable ...
<LaserJock> theCore: how so
<theCore> way too large
<theCore> but maybe it just me
<LaserJock> theCore: well, hopefully we can split it up for Dapper+1
<LaserJock> theCore: but I'd like to not be moving things around too much this late
<theCore> LaserJock: I would like a style convention for the XML too
<LaserJock> theCore: btw, yeas I can ssh -X on OSX (and most other *nixy things)
<theCore> LaserJock: then can launch Yelp? mine is broken
<LaserJock> theCore: how do you mean style convention?
<LaserJock> theCore: ah, I think mine is broken at the moment too
<LaserJock> I've been using the HTML
<theCore> it doesn't display my doc menu
<theCore> (not the side bar, but the main page) 
<theCore> like using a 2 space identation, instead of a tab
<LaserJock> you don't like tabs?
<theCore> they become really annoying after 5-6 
<theCore> and XML is heavily nested
<LaserJock> well, I use a 2 space tab so it looks fine to me
<theCore> when I read the files in a console, I can't see half of the documents
<LaserJock> hmmm
<theCore> the format of the <para> tag would need to be specified
<LaserJock> ?
<theCore> so we could distribute configuration file for auto-ident. in the major editor,
<theCore> vi/emacs/gedit don't indent DocBook file the same way
<LaserJock> is that a problem?
<theCore> it's frustating to indent the XMLs manually because someone else use a different editor
<LaserJock> why do you have to indent manually?
<theCore> let me show you an example
<theCore> hm, maybe I'm wrong ...
<theCore> I can't reproduce the problem I had
<LaserJock> hmm
<theCore> there black magic happening in my editors :P
<LaserJock> I don't know. I could be totally messing things up. I'm really not used to using my text editor for editing text ;-)
<theCore> uh? what do you use?
<LaserJock> I don't edit that much text
<theCore> what about the guide?
<LaserJock> that is what I'm saying. That is the only large scale editing I've really done (at least that other people have seen)
<LaserJock> but if you can't reproduce it then I'm in the clear, for now ;-)
<theCore> I think I found it
<theCore> it is related with the line max width, 90 char
<LaserJock> ok
<LaserJock> so is it my fault?
<theCore> I wouldn't say that until I found what is the real problem
<LaserJock> ok, I gotta get home. I'll be back in a while
<LaserJock> btw, I think my max line width is ~100 if I remember right
<jjesse> is the latest desktop guide up on doc.ubuntu.com? 
<jjesse> if not can we get it updated?
<jjesse> the section on ripping audio cds needs to be changed
<LaserJock> theCore: ok, I'm back :-)
<theCore> okay I found it
<theCore> http://paste.ubuntu-nl.org/10950
<LaserJock> ok, so is that a problem?
<theCore> two tag on the same line
<LaserJock> well, apparently you just need to use vim ;-)
<theCore> yeah, that's the problem
<theCore> I want to use Emacs
<theCore> I chosen Emacs, now I have to live with it
<theCore> I want to master one editor, not learning the usage of severals ones
<LaserJock> well, I'm trying to learn several so I can edit anywhere
<theCore> I know, how vi, emacs, notepad, gedit, kate works. But now, I want to master one of them, so I can be really efficient
<theCore> I don't know system where, there isn't one of theses editors
<theCore> s/know/know a/
<LaserJock> I agree, that is where I'm at, except I think I'm going to do vim
<theCore> hmm, it seem I can't reproduce the faulty behaviour, except in the PG ...
<theCore> it's probably the tab who I have to blame
<LaserJock> hmm, odd
<theCore> mixing tabs and spaces is a bad idea
<LaserJock> hmm, so you are using spaces?
<theCore> yes, like space better
<theCore> s/like/I like/
<LaserJock> does it make it harder to reindent, etc.
<theCore> well, it depend
<theCore> LaserJock: if the style convention is well defined, no
<theCore> LaserJock: but it is true that tab, can be converted to spaces easily
<theCore> LaserJock: just a quick `expand' and it's done
<LaserJock> theCore: what about going the other way around?
<theCore> a mess if the spacing is not consitant
<theCore> the avantage of the spaces over the tabs is big: the source always looks the same and good.
<robotgeek> i prefer tabs to spaces, but in python i prefer spaces to tabs
<robotgeek> plus, the is this nice python script which tells you what to use in vim :)
<poningru> I had a question why are the ubuntu-forums still telling people to use automatix?
<poningru> err wrong channel
<Kyral> Don't ask
<Kyral> it will ignite a flamewar
<robotgeek> *cough*
* poningru wished he could participate in ubuntu-forums
<Kyral> eh?
<LaserJock> I wish I didn't know the existed sometimes ;-)
<Kyral> ?
<poningru> more chatting on this matter moved to #ubuntu-offtopic
<poningru> sorry for the spam
<theCore> robotgeek: true, that's one reason why I prefer spaces to tabs, it's the standard for Python 
<LaserJock> arghh, I think I started using tabs for Python :(
<robotgeek> LaserJock: python standard recommends spaces, so there goes
<LaserJock> hmmm
<poningru> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MultimediaApplications
<poningru> what is that template?
<poningru> anyone?
<dsas> It's probably just a 'normal' template with a table of contents added.
<poningru> dsas: how do you make the template apear in the left part of the page?
<poningru> err
<poningru> the contents
<dsas> The content goes left by default, the table of contents goes right because of the <tablestyle="float:right; width:40%;"> bits
<poningru> ah ic
<poningru> hmm I might stick with the right then
<poningru> thanks
<dsas> no problem
<theCore> LaserJock: oh btw, I would say that you were right that vi is more portable editor
* robotgeek looks to see if there is a section on imap in the server guide
<LaserJock> theCore: I always found that emacs is huge (and hence has lots of features) but it really is more than I need.
<robotgeek> LaserJock: now you can get clippy in vim too
<robotgeek> http://vigor.sourceforge.net/
<poningru> rofl
* poningru prefers nano
<LaserJock> oh my gosh
<LaserJock> robotgeek: that is soooo bad
<poningru> is it just me or does the wiki not say the license?
<robotgeek> looks like you are trying to write a regular expression. Do you need help? 
<poningru> rofl
<poningru> looks like you are writing a suicide note. Do you need help?
<LaserJock> poningru: license of what?
<poningru> what the document is released under
<poningru> for example if you go to wikipedia all the articles are under the gfdl
<LaserJock> poningru: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/WikiLicensing
<poningru> ah ic
<poningru> so public domain?
<poningru> eh
<LaserJock> something like that
<poningru> that means I cant take from wikipedia
<poningru> since thats under gfdl
<poningru> I wished we were compatible with something like that
<LaserJock> hmm
<poningru> crap this sucks
<poningru> I should bring this up in the next meeting or whatever
<LaserJock> you should mail the list
<dsas> The gfdl can be a non-free license depending on certain sub-clauses, I don't know what clauses etc wikimedia uses. 
<poningru> what makes it non-free?
<robotgeek> the debian announcement was  mentioned on the list
* poningru searches
<robotgeek> poningru: http://www.debian.org/News/2006/20060316
<dsas> some gfdl documents have "unmodifiable sections" iirc
<theCore> dsas: is it why the docteam doesn't support gfdl ?
<dsas> well, as far as I'm aware we've not made a ubuntu specific statement on it's freeness, but upstream has.
<poningru> hmm
<poningru> right but we are not taking docs from upstream for the wiki
<poningru> we cant
<poningru> legally that is
<LaserJock> theCore: all the doc team docs except for the Packaging Guide are GFDL/CC-SA
<dsas> what's the packaging guide licensed as LaserJock?
<LaserJock> GPL
<poningru> but the wiki...
<poningru> is supposed to be public domain
<dsas> poningru: Right, but I think Ubuntu share Debians outlook on what's free or what's not. Though I may be wrong.
<LaserJock> yeah
<poningru> agreed
<poningru> err I agree with debian regarding their ruling
<poningru> and things like wikipedia generally do not allow unmodifiable portions
<LaserJock> dsas: there are a few exceptions
<LaserJock> dsas: gfdl wasn't considered free until recently
<dsas> Yeah, true. I wasn't around whenever the doc team decided on these things though, so I don't know the thought processes of doing so.
<LaserJock> me neither really
<LaserJock> I just had to do a little digging into it when I started the packaging guide
<poningru> so why the exception for the wiki?
<LaserJock> it isn't an exception
<LaserJock> it was determined that it was basically Public Domain in practice
<LaserJock> or something like that
<poningru> why?
<poningru> that means I cant copy from anything
<LaserJock> well, because it is assumed that when you right a wiki you are giving it to the public domain
<poningru> from wikipedia to kb.mozillazine.org to our own docs
<poningru> why is that assumed?
<LaserJock> because there wasn't any license
<LaserJock> so we would have to go back and ask all the wiki page authors to agree to the GFDL
<poningru> atleast in the US absence of a license mark means full copyright
<poningru> not zero copyright
<poningru> and granted thats the dumbest thing in the world
<poningru> but still...
<dsas> poningru: We're going to ask all former contributors whether or not it's ok.
<poningru> um no
<poningru> if its in the public domain we can fork it to anything we want
<Kyral> All my things are under whatever you guys decide...and until then CC-BY-SA :P
<poningru> sorry if I seem a little rude
<LaserJock> poningru: no, I understand, but it isn't very clear cut
<dsas> not all of the info is in the public domain, the Wiki Licensing spec hasn't been fully implemented. So we need to get authors permission to put it in the Public Domain.
<poningru> I think we should move it to the gfdl
<poningru> thats just imho
<LaserJock> dsas: I didn't think we were going to get authors permission for PD
<poningru> yeah dont think that would happen
<robotgeek> poningru: since the gfdl thing was non-free, we couldn't use it?
<poningru> but the rest of our docs are like that
<dsas> LaserJock: from the WikiLicensing page "Prepare for the transition by attempting to obtain the consent of persons who have posted material on the wiki."
<poningru> and its not non-free
<LaserJock> dsas: I'm not sure if that is really the case. But my memory of the TB/CC meeting is pretty vague
<poningru> tb?
<dsas> poningru: Technical Board
<poningru> ah
<dsas> LaserJock: I can't remember being in attendance, but that surprises me.
<LaserJock> well, I could be totally wrong
<LaserJock> I just can't remember that well :(
<dsas> I'm off to work anyway, good day all.
<LaserJock> poningru: I'd just email the list and ask about thinks like wikipedia, etc. I hadn't really thought about that before
<poningru> k
<mdke> robitaille, do you still have that problem with yelp?
<robitaille> not since I rebuild the database
<mdke> good
<robitaille> Hopefully it will be fine the next time I install from, scratch with Flight 6
<mdke> is flight 6 out already?
<robotgeek> nope
<mdke> then it should be fine :)
* mdke smacks bhuvan for putting undefined entities in the serverguide scrollkeeper file
<mdke> :)
<mdke> bhuvan, the presentation looks really nice. did you give it already?
<mdke> afk
<kbrooks> hi,.
<kbrooks> what's up?
<robotgeek> hey LaserJock 
<LaserJock> hi robotgeek 
<mdke> hello
<LaserJock> hi mdke 
<mdke> hiya LaserJock 
<mdke> how's it going?
<LaserJock> well, busy
<mdke> heh
<LaserJock> I'm working on a quick (yeah right) packaging project
<Burgwork> LaserJock, squeak?
<LaserJock> yes
<Burgwork> want to do willow at the same time?
<LaserJock> arggh ;-)
<LaserJock> I want to finish the Packaging Guide
<mdke> careful, we need him for the packaging guide
<LaserJock> anyway, a squeak dev came into -motu yesterday and said that squeak was unusable
<LaserJock> so nice MOTU that I am I told him I'd look into it
<Burgwork> doesn't squeak have legal issues?
<LaserJock> it is in multiverse
<LaserJock> so yeah ;-)
<robotgeek> trappist: commited, changed version and recommitted 
<trappist> changed version?
<robotgeek> trappist: 3.5.2 to 3.5.1
<trappist> oh 3.5.2 isn't in dapper?
<trappist> will it be?
<robotgeek> trappist: maybe, maybe not
<trappist> I see
<robotgeek> jjesse: ping. done
<trappist> is what's going on in #ubuntu-meeting an appropriate forum to nominate me as an ubuntu member?
<jjesse> what meeting is on ubuntu-meeting?
<robotgeek> TB, so no
<trappist> TB
<trappist> dang.
<trappist> when do I get to be a docteam member? ;)
<jjesse> are you a member of the launchpad group is that what you are asking for?
<trappist> that's what I mean
#ubuntu-doc 2007-03-26
<Seveas> hiya
<Seveas> sorry for ubotu being a pain
<Seveas> I'm trying to fi it
<Johnny5_> I'd like to help contribute to the Ubuntu Help Center.
<Johnny5_> I've been looking on the Documentation Team on the ubuntu wiki
<LaserJock> cool
<Johnny5_> I guess the best way for me to get started is to click the Get Involved link at the top of this chat room
<LaserJock> it has quite a bit of info
<Johnny5_> I guess the only way to update and improve the system documentation is through launchpad
<LaserJock> not at all
<LaserJock> the wiki is a great place to help
<LaserJock> and the shipped documentation is maintianed in a subversion repository
<Johnny5_> Who updated the shipped documentation.
<Johnny5_> I mean who updates it
<LaserJock> the doc team
<LaserJock> as far as the Ubuntu stuff
<Johnny5_> I feel that documentation is more powerful than the wiki documentation, at least for novice computer users.
<Johnny5_> The wiki is so hard to find through links on the ubuntu site. Seems they have made it quite hard for new ubuntu users
<LaserJock> really?
<LaserJock> it's linked all over the place
<Johnny5_> I can't find it on the front page of ubuntu. Or through the support page. There is only link to the wiki pages on the support page but it is called "Local Community Teams"
<Johnny5_> I think they should make nice big buttons on the support page that make it easy to find, the forums, wiki, and other support pages.
<Johnny5_> They just have a sentence with a few links in it to the wiki, forums etc.
<Johnny5_> The navigation on the ubuntu site (in my opinion) needs to be more user friendly.
<LaserJock> interesting
<Johnny5_> Maybe I'm crazy.
<tonyyarusso> #ubuntu-matt still open?
<Moitio> Documentation site down? or is it just me?
<LaserJock> seems fairly user friendly to me but I don't know
<LaserJock> Launchpad seems to be down perhaps
<Moitio> would that be why the ubuntu wiki is also down?
<Johnny5_> help.ubuntu.com seems down.
<LaserJock> yes
<LaserJock> they're all linked together
<LaserJock> Launchpad is used for authentication
<Johnny5_> authentication for what?
<LaserJock> the wiki
<LaserJock> etc.
<Johnny5_> yea
<Johnny5_> Well the system documentation seems like a great start, but it sounds like it is only updated by 30 or so people.
<LaserJock> 30?
<LaserJock> more like 5
<Johnny5_> I looked on launchpad, looked like about 25-30
<Johnny5_> I am probably wrong
<LaserJock> well, no that could be how big the LP team is
<LaserJock> but in reality the shipped docs are done by around 5 or so people
<Johnny5_> I think they should integrate a way for users to easily submit new documentation for the doc team to review and revise before putting it into the real docs.
<LaserJock> that's what the wiki is for
<Johnny5_> right.
<LaserJock> but yeah, that's always an issue
<Johnny5_> seems like there is too many systems for the same thing. The 5 or so people who update the system docs are really given the impossible task of transfering wiki docs to the system docs.
<Johnny5_> Perhaps they should integrate the wiki into the syste docs somehow.
<LaserJock> well, I think that is something we'd like to work on
<Moitio> But the Wiki is also extensively used for many other things - whats there for the 5 or so people to differentiate between the good docs and the stuff used for developing?
<LaserJock> Moitio: those are 2 different wikis
<LaserJock> help.ubuntu.com/community is the help wiki
<Moitio> oh i see :)
<LaserJock> wiki.ubuntu.com is the development wiki
<Moitio> I didn't notice that community one
<LaserJock> we have a tool to convert wiki pages to docbook
<LaserJock> it seems to work ok
<LaserJock> but documentation just isn't always that easy to do
<Johnny5_> Is the help.ubuntu.com identical to the system docs? Or is the system docs a bit behind as far as how up to date it is.
<LaserJock> and we need to have high quality
<Johnny5_> yea high quality certainly should be priority for the system docs
<LaserJock> Johnny5_: the tabs at the top are exact copies of the system documentation
<LaserJock> doc.ubuntu.com has the "work in progress" stuff for the current development release
<LaserJock> there's a large range of quality levels and technologies involved with documentation
<Johnny5_> yea
<Johnny5_> well I'm certainly not saying the documentation is bad.
<LaserJock> there's always room for improvment though
<Johnny5_> yep.
<Johnny5_> Well the documentation certainly beats most OS's documentation.
<LaserJock> we're getting there, it's really hard because it's all scattered
<Johnny5_> yeah.
<LaserJock> we have man pages, info pages, Gnome help, KDE help
<Johnny5_> It would be great to have all the documentation in one place.
<LaserJock> then we add on the Ubuntu layer
<LaserJock> pretty much all the documentation is in the help center
<LaserJock> it's just a matter of getting to it
<Johnny5_> yeah.
<Johnny5_> In the future some video tutorials would be good.
<LaserJock> we have those
<LaserJock> there is a screencasts team
<Johnny5_> ah.
<LaserJock> http://doc.ubuntu.com/screencasts/
<Johnny5_> oh yeah. I've seen that.
<Johnny5_> Ubuntu should come out with an exe file that downloads and burns the iso image to a cd automatically.
<Johnny5_> To help even the extreme novice computer user to switch from windows to ubuntu
<Johnny5_> perhaps the exe file should backup their windows data as well
<mpt> That's really strange
<mpt> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SpecTemplate used to exist, I remember editing it once or twice
<mpt> but now there isn't even a revision history
<Burgundavia> hmm, I see that
<Burgundavia> got moved
<mpt> where to? I don't see it in the template list, either
<Burgundavia> I am moving it back
<Burgundavia> crap
<mpt> ?
<Burgundavia> arghhh
<Burgundavia> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Bicycle?action=RenamePage <-- won't let me move it back
<mpt> oh, I have the same error on the Launchpad wiki
<Burgundavia> uggh
<mpt> I'll make an RT request
<mpt> (we could just recreate it, but that would lose the history)
<Burgundavia> it is a known moin bug
<Burgundavia> I think we need to wait for 24 ours
<Burgundavia> hmm, it seems like all moving is broken
<mpt> I've been waiting for months for the Launchpad equivalent, so I doubt it
* mpt tries again just in case
<mpt> I've mailed the sysadmins
* Starting logfile irclogs/ubuntu-doc.log
* Starting logfile irclogs/ubuntu-doc.log
<mdke> morning all
<Burgundavia> morning mdke
<mdke> hiya Burgundavia
<mdke> Burgundavia: about your questions over the weekend
<Burgundavia> I honestly forget what they were
<mdke> you can't use fop on the doc server, it has to be done on a system with X
<Burgundavia> ah
<Burgundavia> right
<mdke> you asked about edit rights on the website - I think people's rights have been carried over, you can ask newz what your login is if you want it
<mdke> there are a few things to get used to when editing, so have a chat with him
<Burgundavia> ok
<Burgundavia> I understand he is on vacation right now
<mdke> hmm
<mdke> he was around last friday
<mdke> I think he had a short break
<Burgundavia> hmm
<Burgundavia> anyway, I need to sleep
<mdke> night
<CIA-25> Ubuntu Documentation: lucius feisty * r4018 /xubuntu/about/xubuntu-index.html: remove silly character entity in html file (no string change)
<ubotu> New bug: #96060 in gnome-user-docs (universe) "gnome-user-docs outdated" [Undecided,Needs info]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/96060
<CIA-25> Ubuntu Documentation: nixternal feisty * r4019 /kubuntu/games/ (C/games.xml games.pot): small string flip - recreated pot and uploaded to LP - Closes 94930
<sladen> how do I do  <strike>foadsfasdf</strike in the wiki?
<sladen> I tried  <s>..</s>
<Laser_away> strike?
<sladen> nope, didn't work
<sladen> --(  )-- maybe
<Laser_away> sladen: I don't understand what you are trying to do
<sladen> mark something as done using a trike thorugh the middle
<sladen> as in HTML  <strike>this ha been done</strike>
<sladen> I found a page that says that in moinmoin, that's  --(asdfasdfasdf)--
<sladen> but that doesn't seem to be working, so I though I'd come and ask the experts
<nixternal> sladen: we don't have strike enabled
<nixternal> it should be --blah-- and that would strike it out
<sladen> nixternal: okay, how do I get it t enabled?
<nixternal> but, we have the biggest turd for a wiki. talk to the admins I guess and tell them to update to something newer than the 1960's :)
<nixternal> --(blah)-- that's right
<Laser_away> lol
<Laser_away> it's not *that* old
<nixternal> I almost want to start using DWOS for my wiki page so I can use it to track my work
<Laser_away> ?
<nixternal> for instance what sladen is trying to do. That is good when you have a list of jobs on the wiki so everyone can track your progress. and when complete, it would be nice to strike it out, but ummm you can't
<nixternal> I guess you could use the {^} or whatever a checkmark is
<sladen> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/TheUbucon/Sevilla/TODO  is thepage in question
<Laser_away> yeah, I use checkmarks
<Laser_away> nixternal: I use my own wiki for TODO lists
<sladen> so, can I email some admins and ask them to enable it?
<Laser_away> heh
<sladen> seems mad that it was proactively disabled
<nixternal> Laser_away: as do I for my personal stuff, but say for instance you want to see where I am at with Kubuntu docs or what not, you can look at my tasks page on the wiki and track it
<nixternal> sladen: we may have a version that doesn't have that implemented yet as well
<Laser_away> sladen: it wasn't proactively disabled
<nixternal> I think pulling teeth from a Lion would be easier
<Laser_away> we just have a fairly old version of moin
<sladen> well, we can try
<nixternal> exactly, what's the worse they can say, "NO"?
<Laser_away> heh
<sladen> exactly, what do I CC, ubuntu-doc@lists.ubuntu.com ?
<nixternal> haha, they email sladen back saying dude, you have lost all access to life, go work for Gentoo!
<Laser_away> we've been "working on it" for over a year
<sladen> they won't
<sladen> (I hopes :)
<sladen> sysadmins are nice people, they just need stroking in the right ways
<Laser_away> well
<Laser_away> I think they just have a lot of things they see as higher priority
<Laser_away> you can poke elmo and see
<Laser_away> if I remember right we're running a fairly customized Moin
<Laser_away> and it's likely to be a decent sized job to upgrade
<nixternal> they are scared!
<Laser_away> well, if they end up having to take down the wikis for a while it won't make people happy
#ubuntu-doc 2007-03-27
<Burgundavia> mpt: you around?
<mpt> Burgundavia, yep
<Burgundavia> mpt: nice page on the "for reviewers" bit
<Burgundavia> probably something the marketing team can do
<mpt> ah, good idea
<mpt> I'd created that page way back in 2005 and then forgotten about it
<Burgundavia> oh, right
<mdke> morning all
<bhuvan> morning mdke
<mdke> hi bhuvan
<Burgundavia> morning bhuvan and mdke
<bhuvan> morning Burgundavia
<mdke> hiya corey
<Burgundavia> mdke: do you know much about the org. Oxford Archaeology?
<Burgundavia> mdke: you around?
<nixternal> good morning!
<jjesse> morning
<jjesse> in training @ home :)
<jjesse> working in the office now i can access irc :)
<janimo> hi, is there a reason for various png and gif files in doc svn to be marked executable?
<janimo> no big issues, it just bothers lintian and creates lots of noise while building the package
<BlackBirdBB> bhuvan : there?
#ubuntu-doc 2007-03-28
<mdke> Burgundavia: no, probably not.
<Burgundavia> mdke: about what?
<mdke> Burgundavia: org of Oxford Archeology
<Burgundavia> ah, right
<Madpilot> question & answer seperated by 24+ hrs ;)
<Burgundavia> canonical is interesting in reviving the quickstart guide
<mdke> hence your interest in archeology?
<mdke> Madpilot: more like 22!
<mdke> Burgundavia: won't the marketing team's features guide be similar to the quickguide?
<Burgundavia> no, ChrisK was thinking a graphical ubuntuguide, basically
<mdke> what's the difference between that and what the marketing team has planned?
<Burgundavia> the features tour is "this is what fiesty has that is cool"
<Burgundavia> the quickstart guide is basically "here is how to turn on mp3 playback", etc.
<mdke> oh, actually a guide
<Burgundavia> yes, actually a guide
<mdke> so, not like the quickguide at all
<Burgundavia> I told ChrisK to talk to you
<mdke> if i recall, that was a feature overview
<Burgundavia> yes, yes it was
<Burgundavia> I remember doing the first one back in Hoary days
* mdke nods
<mdke> alright, I'll talk to him
<mdke> I'm a bit sceptical about these quickguide/faq concepts
<Burgundavia> the new codec buddy thing makes it easy to explain that
<mdke> yes, easy to explain.
<ubotu> New bug: #97355 in ubuntu-doc "Packaging Guide command error" [Undecided,Unconfirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/97355
<kestrel> jsgotangco:Good morning - are you working on documentation for update-manager or is that upstream?
<jsgotangco> well update-manager upstream is ubuntu
<jsgotangco> i haven't really touched it for a while
<jsgotangco> even that of gnome-app-install
<kestrel> Want help with the update-manager doc?
<jsgotangco> you could do a complete re-write of it if you want, and just send it to mvo or glatzor
<jsgotangco> then they could add it to the current bzr
<jsgotangco> but that would only be possible to be included in feisty+1 unless you get an exception, no idea if its in effect
<kestrel> There was recent activity on bug 44944 and it looked like a pretty easy fix.
<ubotu> Malone bug 44944 in update-manager "Update-Manager help pages out of date" [Medium,Confirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/44944
<kestrel> Not sure it needs a full rewrite
<kestrel> how does one go about getting access to the repository for the current documentation?
<jsgotangco> well documentation for applications are done on the source tree itself not on the ubuntu doc svn
<jsgotangco> so you can just send a patch to the maintainers
<jsgotangco> if its using launchpad, you can access it via bzr and even make your own so you can merge in the future
<kestrel> In launchpad the "code" link is grayed out.
<jsgotangco> https://code.launchpad.net/update-manager/
<jsgotangco> ?
<kestrel> yes - thanks I see the code page
<jsgotangco> im not that familiar with the code anymore, its best you ask mvo or glatzor where you could start
<jsgotangco> i was thinking of revisiting when feisty+1 starts
<kestrel> yes - it seems different enough from ubuntu-docs to ask them for help getting started
<jsgotangco> yep
<jsgotangco> it used to be in ubuntu-docs but i moved them eons ago
<kestrel> why?
<kestrel> Just wondering
<CIA-25> Ubuntu Documentation: nixternal feisty * r4020 /kubuntu/firefox-startpage/kindex-fi.html: Kubuntu Firefox Startpage Finnish translation - Thanks to Timo
<jsgotangco> well the application itself can be considered upstream development already and not just ubuntu-specific, and since its now in bzr, people can merge from it easily, so its only natural for have them all in one place instead of upstream picking up documentation from another repository and back
<jsgotangco> also makes it easier for other distributions that use it to submit patches , say nexenta or gnewsense
* kestrel checking out update-manager bzr - thanks jsgotangco
<jsgotangco> cheers mate
<CIA-25> Ubuntu Documentation: mantha feisty * r4021 /edubuntu/handbook/C/ (introduction.xml server.xml using.xml):
<CIA-25> Ubuntu Documentation: * take out unused sections
<CIA-25> Ubuntu Documentation: * replace Microsoft and Adobe references with generic names
<CIA-25> Ubuntu Documentation: * lts.conf example fix from ogra
#ubuntu-doc 2007-03-29
<Burgundavia> mdke: you up?
<mdke> Burgundavia: si
* mdke rubs eyes
<Burgundavia> mdke: have you followed this whole caroline ford thingy
<Burgundavia> ?
<mdke> Burgundavia: no, I know who she is, and have read some of her posts to the -uk mailing list, that's about all
<Burgundavia> ok
<Burgundavia> just wondered, as I ran into it via a wiki edit earlier
<mdke> where can I find out what the "thingy" is?
<Burgundavia> it was the mailing list post about "women and newbs"
<mdke> which list?
<mdke> I'll read in #ubuntu-uk
<Madpilot> Burgundavia, to -sounder, or where?
<Burgundavia> to -uk
<Burgundavia> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-uk/2007-March/003698.html
<Burgundavia> see that and the followups
<mdke> weird thread
<Burgundavia> yes, very wierd
<Burgundavia> it is not quite ted walther offensive, but it poorly thought out
<Burgundavia> a bit saddened that nobody stood up and said anything construction
<Burgundavia> constructive
<mdke> the list can be a bit odd sometimes
<LaserJock> anybody remember how to do a right arrow in docbook?
<jjesse> nope sorry
<LaserJock> nixternal: pingy pingy
<nixternal> pongy pongy
<nixternal> LaserJock: ^^
<LaserJock> nixternal: ok, working more on edubuntu-docs
<LaserJock> we seem to be missing some image files
<LaserJock> do you have access to the old svn repo they were using for the handbook?
<nixternal> LaserJock: that would be HedgeMage that would have that
<nixternal> it seems she removed the svn server from the public
<LaserJock> nixternal: you never got the images though?
<LaserJock> there are some, but not all
<nixternal> LaserJock: I got all of the ones that were there
<LaserJock> hmm
<LaserJock> it seems like people were using the repo after we merged it into the doc team repo
<nixternal> well, I tried to keep up on it
<LaserJock> but then it disappeared
<nixternal> that server was hosted at the same place that HedgeMage's blog is hosted
<nixternal> svn.binaryredneck.net I believe
<LaserJock> yeah, but it's down I think
<LaserJock> I'll email her and see if I can get the missing ones
<LaserJock> I just  wondered if you happened to have them
<nixternal> can't say that I do
<LaserJock> fine
<LaserJock> lotta help you are ;-p
<nixternal> hehe
#ubuntu-doc 2007-03-30
<ubotu> New bug: #98853 in ubuntu-docs (main) "'yelp->Connecting to the Internet->Basic Proceedure' needs update" [Undecided,Unconfirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/98853
<mdke> morning all
<mdke> LaserJock, nixternal: I've finally done the patch for edubuntu+yelp, on bug 76944 if you want to subscribe
<ubotu> Malone bug 76944 in yelp "Improve yelp index layout" [Wishlist,Confirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/76944
<LaserJock> mdke: awesome, thanks
<LaserJock> it looks like this will be the first release Edubuntu has some showing for docs
<fabbione> hi guys
<fabbione> i can't find FeistyReleaseNotes anymore in the wiki
<fabbione> does anybody have a clue where is it now and how is it called?
<jono> mdke_: ping
<jjesse> hello jono
<jono> hey
<fabbione> <fabbione> hi guys
<fabbione> <fabbione> i can't find FeistyReleaseNotes anymore in the wiki
<fabbione> <fabbione> does anybody have a clue where is it now and how is it called?
<bdmurray> Is there somebody familiar with the binary driver how to?
<plato> join #ubuntu
<bdmurray> I added a wee link to nvidia's release notes on https://help.ubuntu.com/community/BinaryDriverHowto/Nvidia regarding the legacy and unified driver changes
<bdmurray> but feel the page might need some more love than I can give it atm
<nixternal> all of the binary pages need some love truthfully
<bdmurray> nixternal: actually I guess they all could just say "Use restricted-manager!"
<ubotu> New bug: #99194 in ubuntu-doc "incomplete instructions" [Undecided,Unconfirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/99194
#ubuntu-doc 2007-03-31
<Burgundavia> mdke: you around?
<LaserJock> Burgundavia: he's never around when you need him. Darn time zones ;-)
<Burgundavia> ] yep
<mdke> Burgundavia: hi
<Burgundavia> mdke: ya, what I needed you for has now past. Sorry about pinging you
<mdke> no worries
<mdke> mpt: https://beta.launchpad.net/ubuntu-help ?
<mpt> mdke, "Registered ... 2005-07-23"
<mpt> It's obsolete, but I can't delete it
* mpt changes its description
<kbrooks> ping
<kbrooks> is anbyone here?
<mdke> mpt: gotcha
<ubotu> New bug: #99463 in ubuntu-docs (main) "Wrong reference to a button in add-applications" [Undecided,Unconfirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/99463
<ubotu> New bug: #99473 in ubuntu-docs (main) "Wrong reference in keeping-safe document" [Undecided,Unconfirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/99473
<ubotu> New bug: #99474 in ubuntu-doc "Outdated instructions in Desktop Guide" [Undecided,Unconfirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/99474
<ubotu> New bug: #99480 in ubuntu-docs (main) "Not translatable documents in (k)ubuntu-docs" [Undecided,Unconfirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/99480
#ubuntu-doc 2007-04-01
<jjesse> evening :)
<LaserJock> hi jjesse
<nixternal> oh well, I quit, enjoy!
<LaserJock> nixternal: what?
<nixternal> huh?
<nixternal> d'oh
<nixternal> silly IRSSI split windows
<LaserJock> I was going to start hyperventilating
<nixternal> why?
<nixternal> oh, haha!
#ubuntu-doc 2008-03-24
<charlie-tca> Just saying hello; first time on channel
<nixternal> initial checkouts on bzr totally suck, hate it with a passion
<nixternal> hiya charlie-tca! welcome
#ubuntu-doc 2008-03-25
<ubotu> New bug: #206371 in ubuntu-docs (main) "images in ubuntu-docs should not be executable" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/206371
<ubotu> New bug: #206502 in ubuntu-docs (main) "libkrb531.6.dfsg1-7ubuntu0.1 failed to install or upgrade" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/206502
<ubotu> New bug: #206760 in ubuntu-docs (main) "preklad" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/206760
<bellkana_> hello, anyone there?
<ubotu> New bug: #206877 in ubuntu-doc "Reset Grub advice begins incorrectly" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/206877
#ubuntu-doc 2008-03-26
<ubotu> New bug: #176717 in ubuntu-docs (main) "ubuntu-about not translated to polish" [Undecided,Incomplete] https://launchpad.net/bugs/176717
<LaserJock> hi wonderful doc people!
<sommer> hello
<LaserJock> cody-somerville: I'm thinking keeping all the docs in a single project may become important for bzr
<cody-somerville> LaserJock, how so?
<LaserJock> I played around yesterday with using a shared repo for the docs
<LaserJock> got some help from #bzr
<cody-somerville> mmhmm
<LaserJock> so I think we could be moving to a shared repo in the nearish future
<LaserJock> and I'm not sure if that would work if they were in separate projects
<cody-somerville> I don't think we really need to concern ourselves with conserving a tiny bit of hard drive space on launchpad's servers.
<LaserJock> it's not about that
<LaserJock> it's about speed
<cody-somerville> I wasn't aware that shared repos provided any speed benefits
<LaserJock> with the shared repo once you have one branch, you only have to get the different revisions on the second branch
<cody-somerville> Could you point me to the documentation that says that it does?
<LaserJock> so like I had edubuntu-hardy already
<cody-somerville> How diverged are the branches now?
<LaserJock> and to get ubuntu-hardy I only had to grab 178 more revisions
<LaserJock> out of like 3600+
<cody-somerville> Oh right
<cody-somerville> We used svn before
<LaserJock> and also the space savings is significant
<cody-somerville> And anyhow, we can still have a shared repository even with different products I believe
<cody-somerville> As long as the branch owner stays the same
<LaserJock> perhaps
<LaserJock> but I'm not sure if LP would handle it
<LaserJock> we can check though of course
<cody-somerville> To be honest, if we got the bugmail stuff squared away, I wouldn't be so interested in having multiple products
<cody-somerville> Although it makes logical sense the simple principle of single product for a single product
<LaserJock> how much bugmail can you possibly be getting?
<LaserJock> a single project for a single project, I would argue ;-)
 * cody-somerville curses launchpad for creating ambiguity.
<cody-somerville> As for bugmail, I find it annoying to have to spend 5-7 minutes checking off 20-50 conversations in gmail to archive everytime I login
<LaserJock> well, I know what you mean, but that's basically life working on Ubuntu. I would think the doc bugmail would be the least of your problems
<LaserJock> I get on an average business day something like 200 of those
<amenado> a request, kindly include or modify these documents for 7.10 and the upcoming 8.04 please  https://help.ubuntu.com/7.04/installation-guide/i386/index.html  currently they are not available for these versions
<nixternal> mdke: added the Doc team report, Kubuntu info completed
<LaserJock> nixternal: just uploaded edubuntu-docs
<LaserJock> closed one of the edubuntu-docs bugs
<nixternal> did you at least close out those bugs :)
<nixternal> just one?
<nixternal> come on, those 3 were easy fixes :p
<LaserJock> yeah, the other ones were actually changing things ;-)
<LaserJock> we can work on the other bugs in bzr
<nixternal> who cares about changing things with edubuntu-docs..they haven't followed a freeze since dapper :p
<nixternal> anyways, they are eventually going to the wiki
<LaserJock> well
<LaserJock> actually the LTSP stuff should go to ubuntu-docs
<LaserJock> so it would probably be worthwhile to fix those bugs
<LaserJock> nixternal: do you have more than one doc branch?
<nixternal> just kubuntu-hardy
<amenado> a request, kindly include or modify these documents for 7.10 and the upcoming 8.04 please  https://help.ubuntu.com/7.04/installation-guide/i386/index.html  currently they are not available for these versions
<jpatrick> amenado: you've said it already, when someone with the power to do it comes by I think they might look into it
<mdke> nixternal: thanks
<seamus7> Just joined the Documentation team .. which repository should I download? gutsy or hardy?
<cody-somerville> Is the wiki down? :(
<kgoetz> seamus7: hardy, but its in string freeze pre release now
<seamus7> so it would be a waste of time to download gutsy? should I just stick with wiki documentation for now?
<kgoetz> i'd say stick to the wiki until intrepid forks
<seamus7> ok th
<seamus7> x
#ubuntu-doc 2008-03-27
<mdke> morning all
<cody-somerville> \o_
#ubuntu-doc 2008-03-28
<LostOverThere__> Hi
<ubotu> New bug: #208134 in ubuntu-docs (main) "Broken link for server topics" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/208134
<ubotu> New bug: #208346 in ubuntu-docs (main) "package ubuntu-docs 8.03.3 failed to install/upgrade: subprocess post-installation script returned error exit status 134" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/208346
#ubuntu-doc 2008-03-29
<ubotu> New bug: #73609 in ubuntu-docs (main) "monthly scrollkeeper cron job is very noisy" [Undecided,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/73609
<ubotu> New bug: #208763 in ubuntu-doc "Password and Encryption Guide mentions wrong location for program" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/208763
<mdke>  /win 12
<sommer> mdke: hello
<sommer> mdke: there are a bunch of spelling mistakes I missed in the Server Guide, and I wanted to check with you about committing them?
<sommer> mdke: I haven't compiled a list yet, so I'll do that and let you know how big the impact will be
<sommer> mdke: there are 130 lines effected in the diff
<mdke> sommer: that would seriously affect translators. are they literally just spelling mistakes?
<sommer> mdke: yep, spelling and capatilization of applications... on the whole they aren't that serious
<sommer> really most are capatilizations
<sommer> I can send you the diff if you'd like to take a look
<mdke> sommer: what we need to do is to ensure the translators don't get affected. We can do it by committing the fix right at the end of the cycle, after translations are already imported
<sommer> mdke: gotcha, it shouldn't affect the translations
<mdke> don't commit it for now, in case there are any more serious fixes which we need to apply and pass on to translators
<sommer> mdke: sure, I'll just hang onto it.
<sommer> the original diff was from another Server Team member that didn't have time to review before the freeze
<mdke> ok
<sommer> mdke: thanks man
<mdke> np. Things are looking pretty good this release
<mdke> thanks for all your hard work
<sommer> ya, there was still some things that didn't get documented, like iscsi, but that's because the development is still very active
<sommer> I was thinking the other day about your comment concerning the size of the server guide, and I don't see it getting any smaller
<sommer> is there another approach we should use for it?
<sommer> maybe reorganize into sub-chapters or something?
<mdke> size in itself isn't a problem, as long as the whole guide is relevant to the server edition
<sommer> yep, it's all relevant, I was just gatehering ideas for the next release, and so fare there are several good ones
<mdke> I was just a bit worried that sections might be being added which are not directly relevant - i thought perhaps that since jeos is its own "flavour", perhaps it should be in its own document, shipped with that flavour
<mdke> but you reassured me
<sommer> ah, yep I forgot that was the focus... that section may need some more thought, but I think for now it fits well
<sommer> I was just thinking the other day that there is a bunch of scrolling necessary to see all the sections :-)
<mdke> that's true. you may want to consider reducing the number of sections
<sommer> heh, that may be a tough sell, I was thinking to discuss the puropose/focus of the guide at UDS, that should then help figure out how to organize things
<mdke> I fancy you could save some space here and there
<mdke> the networking section looks like it might be able to house a couple of other sections
<mdke> chapters 6 and 7, for example
<sommer> ya, chapter 6 is pretty small, but there are some ideas for additions to that chapter for the next release
<sommer> libnss-ldap, example client application configuration, etc
<mdke> structure doesn't depend upon size, it depends upon subject matter
<mdke> so if things are to do with networking, they should be in the networking section, even if they are huge ;)
<mdke> ditto jeos and the virtualisation section
<sommer> I'm with ya, but is there a way to display more than <sect1> tags in the main ToC?
<mdke> I don't completely understand your question, but I think the answer is "sure"
<mdke> ah, you want deeper indexes?
<mdke> yes, that's easy. I think it would double the amount of scrolling required though
<mdke> also, normally the sect1 title is enough to tell you what is there, so it's a reasonable place to cut off
<sommer> for example the libvirt-virsh section, can that be linked to the main table of contents?
<sommer> the reason being is that it would make it easier to find specific content for what you're working on
<sommer> not that it's terribly hard now
<mdke> I think the best way is to keep the index manageable and ensure that the sections are clearly enough titled that it's easy to find whatever you are looking for
<sommer> sure, that's what I was thinking as well
 * sommer wonders how hard it would be to add some type of live search
<mdke> what to?
<sommer> like some blogs and other sites have, a little ajaxy live search field
<mdke> you mean on help.u.c, the serverguide standalone html package, or yelp?
<sommer> ya the web site
<mdke> ah
<mdke> yes, that would be good
<mdke> I still haven't given up hope with moving everything to the wiki and having a single website
<sommer> funny you should mention that, I was thinking the same thing last night :-)
<sommer> at least for the server guide
<mdke> the docbook<->moin project is picking up again now so you never know
<sommer> ya, I did try it out for the bacula section, but the output was all continous
<mdke> you can use the "tidy" program, I think I mentioned that before
<sommer> oh, heh shoud've tried that
<sommer> I'll bring the idea of moving to the wiki up at UDS and see what others think
<sommer> at least the server guys
<mdke> well, I think it's only worth moving if everything moves
<mdke> no point having stuff in a different place
<sommer> ya, that's a good point
<sommer> I'll do some more testing with the docbook > moin stuff
<sommer> and moin > docbook... heh
#ubuntu-doc 2008-03-30
<Lhademmor>  Can someone please take a look at https://help.ubuntu.com/community/AbiWord ? I don't know enough MoinMoin to see what I've done wrong...
<Lhademmor> nvm, i figured it out
<mdke> the wiki is so slow today...
<sommer> yo, I totally noticed the wiki slowness as well... frustrating
<mdke> launchpad has a lot of issues too, possibly it's a general issue
<sommer> seems like someone said something last night in #u-devel about doing an update to address either the slowness or some authentication issues
<sommer> not 100% sure, wasn't paying much attention... heh
<Lhademmor> It would be nice to get an update - also b/c of the additional features, of course..
#ubuntu-doc 2009-03-23
<LjL> hi, i see that information about enabling root has been once again added back to https://help.ubuntu.com/community/RootSudo - with not even an "it's very dangerous" notice, just a mild "it is rarely necessary" one. have our minds been made up on this yet?
<Rocket2DMn> LjL, I emaile the doc list about that a week or two ago
<Rocket2DMn> I think the general consensus was to leave the info there, but with the appropriate warnings and background
<Rocket2DMn> I am planning on reworking the page, but feel free to jump in
<mdke> sommer: I think you accidentally reverted nhandler's patch which was applied in revision 232
<mdke> sommer: incidentally, if you're able to fix that, there is a typo in the first line of the patch, should read "it will allow"
<nhandler> mdke: Sorry about that. I had to redo that patch due to some bzr issues. That typo must have got added in by accident
<mdke> nhandler: no worries :)
<Rocket2DMn> mdke, I had a meeting with some of the Beginners Team's Wiki Focus Group members last night
<Rocket2DMn> You can check the log here if you want - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BeginnersTeam/Meetings/WikiFG/20090322
<sommer> mdke: patch replaced.
<sommer> nhandler: sorry about that... not sure why my earlier commit replaced your patch
<sommer> I did make the change from a different machine than my normal one, maybe my branch was whacky... either way thanks for the patch, should be good to go
#ubuntu-doc 2009-03-24
<nhandler> sommer: No problem. I would have fixed it myself, but I can't commit ;)
<mdke> sommer: thanks for taking care of that. if you bind your branch it should prevent that from happening in future, I think.
#ubuntu-doc 2009-03-25
<Taim> Hello.
<Taim> Quick question.  I am pulling from the right repository I hope.  http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-core-doc/ubuntu-doc/ubuntu-jaunty/
<nhandler> Hi Taim
<nhandler> Taim: If you want the ubuntu-doc source, then yes, that is the correct bzr branch
<Taim> nhandler: That's what I am looking for.
<sommer> mdke: just an fyi... the eucalpytus section needs some major revision
<sommer> mdke: it's going to be a lot shorter... I'm working with the upstream project, and should have a commit ready very soon
#ubuntu-doc 2009-03-26
<nixternal> hey, we should probably extend the string freeze 1 day, because we are in a beta freeze anyways, so nothing is getting uploaded unless it fixes an important bug
<nixternal> mdke: ^^
<nixternal> jjesse and I are going to work through Friday now and call that our string freeze, 1 day after beta release...that way there it is less of a hassel in the long run
<mdke> sommer: ok, I take it that this is done now in revision 249/250?
<sommer> mdke: yeppers, everything should be good to go
<mdke> sommer: thanks
<mdke> sommer: uploading now
 * mdke hugs virtualbox
<nixternal> mdke: sorry about the confusion there...Beta Release, not Beta Freeze :p
<nixternal> I replied to clarify
<nixternal> <- derr, what a moron
<nixternal> I read your reply this morning and I was like, "A WEEK! what is Matt smoking?"
<nixternal> now I see...hahah
<mdke> nixternal: I'm not sure, I think you are still a bit muddled with this idea - see my further reply
<mdke> nixternal: I think you *did* intend to suggest pushing string freeze back to before Beta Freeze, otherwise you wouldn't avoid the archive being frozen for uploads
<mdke> hence the "over a week" point
<mdke> anyway, a week isn't a huge amount of time in the scheme of a release, but I still don't agree :)
<mdke> gtg, back later
#ubuntu-doc 2009-03-27
<OsamaK> Hello. Is there anyway to get the old po files? about-ubuntu (and others) is bit changed, and I want to add the newly-added thing without retranslate the whole strings.
#ubuntu-doc 2009-03-28
<bluemac_uk_44> Hello all
<bluemac_uk_44> This was the only way I could find to contact someone on the Ubuntu team
<bluemac_uk_44> I'd like to report a shop *selling* Ubuntu 'licenses' at Â£40
<philip_> This page has a broken link, I'm unsure of its replacement: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/SystemDocumentation/Repository#Checking-out%20the%20docs
<philip_> The link is to: http://calcium.ubuntu.com/~mdke/ubuntu-doc-initial.tar.bz2
<philip_> where are entities defined? such as &gnome-app-install;
<nixternal> philip_: under a directory called libs
<philip_> thanks, for some unknown reason i grepped for &gnome-app-install; instead of gnome-app-install
#ubuntu-doc 2009-03-29
<philip_> scripts/validate.sh is failing for me, yet i know it shouldn't
<philip_> I get "IDREF attribute linkend references an unknown ID" for any document, whether i touched it or not
<philip_> well, of course only if the document has links :)
<philip_> anyway, what could be the problem?
<OsamaK> Why aren't Ubuntu doc translations updated in the beta version?
<philip_> any advise on why validate.sh (xmllint) is failing me for ubuntu-doc?
<philip_> any document with a link, untouched by me, outputs "IDREF attribute linkend references an unknown ID"
<mdke> philip_: are you running the validate scripts on a document, or a chapter in a document? e.g. 'validate.sh internet/C/internet.xml' should work, whereas 'validate.sh internet/C/modem.xml' will not work
<philip_> ah, thanks, that was the problem
<mdke> :)
<philip_> i added a small note about it here https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/SystemDocumentation/Checking
<mdke> philip_: that's helpful, thanks
<philip_> somehow my first message to ubuntu-doc@ attached itself to an old thread, fairly certain i created a new message however... *shrug*
<philip_> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-doc/2009-March/thread.html
<mdke> mailman sometimes plays tricks
<philip_> it's brutal to play such tricks on first time posters :)
<mdke> heh
<mdke> gtgt bed, see you soon
<philip_> later
#ubuntu-doc 2010-03-29
<iamnotaloser> Is anyone here?
<jjesse> sometiems
#ubuntu-doc 2010-03-30
<DeVASTAte> hello?
<DarkwingDuck> Greetings
<DeVASTAte> I am not new to Ubuntu, and I can't code very well. I would like to help out with Documentation.
<DarkwingDuck> Wonderful!
<DeVASTAte> I think I can help there or maybe as an advocate
<DeVASTAte> i am trying to help both placed
<DeVASTAte> places
<DarkwingDuck> That's where I started... Was documentation
<DeVASTAte> I already present Ubuntu and talk to people about it
<DeVASTAte> cool
<DeVASTAte> ok
<DeVASTAte> so i have read some of the documentation abou tgetting started but I am still confused
<DarkwingDuck> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam ?
<DeVASTAte> can you show me were to start? Launchpad?
<DeVASTAte> ok
<DeVASTAte> I will read that and see what I can come up with.
<DarkwingDuck> You use Ubuntu or one of the variants
<DarkwingDuck> DeVASTAte: Here are the list of bugs. https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ubuntu-docs
<DeVASTAte> Super!
<DeVASTAte> Would like to work for Canonical some day. You would think an 20 year IT guy with lots of history and systems admin could find a place.
<DeVASTAte> Maybe I will work my way in this way.
<DeVASTAte> thanks for your help...
<DarkwingDuck> Anytime.
#ubuntu-doc 2010-04-01
<david_vasta> hello
<shaunm> hi david_vasta
<shaunm> (belatedly)
<david_vasta> hi
<david_vasta> sorry
<david_vasta> too many things going on
#ubuntu-doc 2010-04-03
<Semitones> hey there. would anybody like to doublecheck the changes I made to the wiki?
<Semitones> I added this section: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/RecoveringUbuntuAfterInstallingWindows#For Grub Legacy
<mistrynitesh> anybody had a look at the DocTeam wiki page?
<mistrynitesh> it looks vandalised
<mistrynitesh> reverted back to revision 52
#ubuntu-doc 2011-03-28
<nobuto> Hi,
<nobuto> I've found a spam content on wiki.ubuntu.com https://wiki.ubuntu.com/deal?action=AttachFile
<nobuto> These attached files are indexed as ads of flight tickets on search engines http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=site%3Awiki.ubuntu.com%2Fdeal
<nobuto> I can delete these files one by one. But I will appreciate if someone who has super right deletes it at once.
<bhaskar> hi
#ubuntu-doc 2011-03-29
<peppe84_> Hi. One question about 8.04 official documentation. Anyone remember if is possible create a pdf of serverguide?
<peppe84_> makefile is most different to other version
<peppe84_> and I don't see anyting about
#ubuntu-doc 2011-03-30
<GunnarHj> mdke: Hi Matthew, can we talk?
<issyl0> 43
<issyl0> Argh.
#ubuntu-doc 2011-03-31
<peppe84> Hi guys, I propose some edit in moinmoin official documentation. Anyone are interesting to do this?
<peppe84> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ubuntu-docs/+bug/745553
<ubot2> Launchpad bug 745553 in ubuntu-docs "error in moin page, action test doesn't exist" [Undecided,Confirmed]
<peppe84> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ubuntu-docs/+bug/745554
<ubot2> Launchpad bug 745554 in ubuntu-docs "improve moin page, update alias" [Undecided,Opinion]
<peppe84> and https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ubuntu-docs/+bug/745563
<ubot2> Launchpad bug 745563 in ubuntu-docs "improve moin page, post installation action" [Undecided,Opinion]
<thanasis> Hello I want to ask you something
<thanasis> I want to create a blog about ubuntu. And I wonder if I can use ubuntu docs as reference to create my articles (I donât really mean to copy paste) just use it as reference
<thanasis> And also if I can use direct link from my blog to ubuntu docs and ubuntu downloads so the visitors can use the link to download os and docs
<thanasis> any1 can help me with that?
<peppe84> thanasis, your questions is about the licence of ubuntu -docs?
<thanasis> yes pepe
<SpamapS> Hi, I want to submit some patches to the server guide. I don't see it in the ubuntu-docs package. Is it maintained somewhere else now?
#ubuntu-doc 2011-04-02
<freddy> hmm no j1mc
<AstroFreddy> j1mc: help me fix stuff. I'm just sitting here.
#ubuntu-doc 2011-04-03
<peppe84> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ubuntu-docs/+bug/748673
<ubot2> Launchpad bug 748673 in ubuntu-docs "Natty & Yelp/Desktop help: strange mix of info refering to Gnome 3 & 2, but not to Unity" [Undecided,Confirmed]
<UndiFineD> <UndiFineD> tagging  .... man there is a lot of work to do
#ubuntu-doc 2012-03-26
<Darkwing> aye.
<Darkwing> jbicha: Not eally. just fixed and updated.
<Darkwing> I'm doing some crazy stuff for the Q cycle.
<shaunm> Darkwing: what are you using xml2po on? kubuntu stuff? upstream kde stuff?
<shaunm> can I convince you to switch to itstool in the future?
<bkerensa> jbicha: what do I need to put for xref for the privacy-settings doc I am about to push?
<bkerensa> I guess I can just submit it and someone can update the xref markup
<jbicha> bkerensa: the guide xref tells where you want the page to show up
<bkerensa> jbicha: Where do we want privacy-panel doc to show up? :)
<jbicha> bkerensa: oh, and you need to fix your title, & while you're at it, could you add the page to Makefile.am ?
<bkerensa> jbicha: Surely I can do all of that... What would be a more precise title? and where do we want the xref to link to? :)
<jbicha> bkerensa: I think sharing is a good page to link it, you can have multiple links if you like
<bkerensa> k
<jbicha> Mallard help is supposed to be more topic based, like how do I do this, or what does this do?
<jbicha> so maybe tell, how to turn off the activity recording and what that means
<bkerensa> k
<jbicha> or maybe show how to exempt certain activity
<jbicha> like if you have sensitive documents you view with evince that you don't want to pop up in the dash
<jbicha> of course there's the pr0n usecase, but I think it'd be better if we weren't that explicit ;)
<jbicha> bkerensa: sorry about your hard drive problems this weekend :(
<bkerensa> jbicha: I am most embarrassed about losing my pgp key :( since it is printed on my business card
<bkerensa> and now I have to rebuild a new key
<jbicha> oh that hurts
<jbicha> I should probably print my key so that I have a backup when my computer eventually fails
<bkerensa> jbicha: On a side note I noticed the Privacy Panel links to a Privacy Policy that really does not cover how any data collected from end-users on a Ubuntu Install is used
<bkerensa> I sent a e-mail to devel-discuss to see what can be done about this
<jbicha> bkerensa: great! that policy looks like just a generic website privacy policy & not specific to the bug tracker
<jbicha> writing & reviewing docs is a good way to find bugs to report
<bkerensa> jbicha: Yeah but what would I file that bug on?
<jbicha> bkerensa: I'd file it against activity-log-manager-control-center & ubuntu-website
#ubuntu-doc 2012-03-27
<philipballew> Question: HOw would I go about downloading the entire Lubuntu online Documentation?
<MrChrisDruif> Again?
<MrChrisDruif> philipballew; First link http://moinmo.in/DesktopEdition
<MrChrisDruif> And it might be a toiling job, but then manually download all the pages
<MrChrisDruif> I do not know of an automated way
<MrChrisDruif> philipballew; http://moinmo.in/HowTo/UbuntuQuick
<philipballew> MrChrisDruif, this is nice. It gives me something to look over
<MrChrisDruif> You're welcome
<philipballew> thank you :)
<MrChrisDruif> philipballew; maybe you could use some bash-magic with wget or curl to do the downloading auto-magically
<philipballew> thats what i am considering, but not sure bash magic off the top of my head
#ubuntu-doc 2012-03-28
<artnay> are some titles hardcoded into ubuntu-docs? for example the title "Dash" at http://91.189.93.101/unity-introduction.html doesn't exist on ubuntu-docs template
<artnay> this is problematic since we've translated dash as "Unity menu", now we have both dash and "unity menu" in docs
<dpm> hi jbicha, around?
<jbicha> dpm: sort of, hi
<dpm> hi :)
<dpm> I just wanted to ask for your help in two things whenever you've got a minute:
<dpm> - Do you think you could have a look at this MP? https://code.launchpad.net/~dpm/ubuntu-docs/html-multiple-locale-output/+merge/99495
<dpm> - On https://translations.launchpad.net/ubuntu-docs/precise/+translations-settings may I ask you to set up a separate branch to use for the automatic commits of translations?
<dpm> mdke, commented he was not in favour of using trunk for the automatic commits and disabled it, but having at least a separate branch would be very useful for translators to have a place where translations are up to date
<dpm> and I guess it's also much easier for you guys to do a merge from there whenever you want to include the latest translations, rather than exporting them from LP
<dpm> I've created a server which contains localized versions in all available locales at http://91.189.93.101/ (it serves the right locale as set by the browser), and if I could just pull the latest translations from such a branch daily, I could show daily up to date localized docs for translators to test
<dpm> it's just a matter of creating a new docs bzr branch and linking to it
<jbicha> dpm: sorry for the silence, I was out for a few minutes, I'm actually staff at POSSCON.org this week
<jbicha> marcoceppi & jcastro are here with a Juju school this afternoon
<jbicha> I'll look at the MP this weekend, maybe hit me up Monday to make sure it's done
<jbicha> because I'll be swamped with POSSCON & the docs freeze tomorrow afternoon :)
<dpm> thanks jbicha, do you think you might have time for the branch before that? It'd be useful to have it at least by string freeze. Btw, I've just had a quick hangout with jcastro, say hi from me if you see him around, and have fun at POSSCON!
<jbicha> dpm: I guess I could merge it now, I haven't really tested to see what the problem is or if that's the right fix
<dpm> jbicha, ah that one is not urgent, feel free to look at it with more time if you like. On my question I meant if you'd have time for setting up the branch for the translation exports (i.e. the second point)
<jbicha> dpm: ok, created an empty branch and told automatic translation exports to go there https://code.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-core-doc/ubuntu-docs/precise-translations
<dpm> ah, awesome, thanks jbicha!
<dpm> jbicha, I've also provided some more context to the merge proposal to give an overview of the reason for the proposal
<jbicha> dpm: oh, I was thinking of guiseppe's merge proposal, I remember yours though now & will merge it
<dpm> jbicha, ah, excellent, thanks. Yeah, I noticed giuseppe's MP too, as I've experienced the issue too. It seems it fixes a problem with the wrong .js file being referenced in the generated HTML pages
<jbicha> yeah, that's the one I wasn't sure what it would do
<dpm> jbicha, yeah, other than seeing that it fixes the file inclusion, I couldn't work out what it actually fixes. So it might be worth asking him to provide some more context
<artnay> there are lots of "Wireless network troubleshooter" section strings missing from translation template, bug 967350
<ubot2> Launchpad bug 967350 in ubuntu-docs "Precise's ubuntu-docs "Wireless network troubleshooter" missing strings" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/967350
<artnay> while translating, I also found 4 references to Activities overview, bug 967356
<ubot2> Launchpad bug 967356 in ubuntu-docs "Precise's "Get Rid of the Keyring Manager" refers to Activities overview" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/967356
<dpm> artnay, on bug 967356, you're describing what you're seeing. Could you add a comment to describe what you'd expect instead of "Activities overview"?
<ubot2> Launchpad bug 967356 in ubuntu-docs "Precise's "Get Rid of the Keyring Manager" refers to Activities overview" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/967356
<dpm> mdke, ack on the missing ghelp: substitutions, I'll re-add the script and submit a new MP, good catch!
<jbicha> artnay: that link says no matches for bug 967350 says "no matches" https://translations.launchpad.net/ubuntu/precise/+source/ubuntu-docs/+pots/ubuntu-help/fi/+translate?batch=10&show=all&search=first+step
<ubot2> Launchpad bug 967350 in ubuntu-docs "Precise's ubuntu-docs "Wireless network troubleshooter" missing strings" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/967350
<artnay> jbicha: indeed, that and many other sentences from "Wireless network troubleshooter" don't exist on translation template
<jbicha> artnay: what do you mean? the version of ubuntu-docs in Precise is out of date, especially the wireless troubleshooter section
<artnay> jbicha: ah, I thought the translation template would be up-to-date, ready for translation.
<jbicha> the translation template *is* up-to-date, it's the ubuntu-docs package that's installed on people's computers that is out of date
<jbicha> bzr branch lp:ubuntu-docs; cd ubuntu-docs/ubuntu-help/C; yelp .
<jbicha> will let you see what the docs look like right now
<artnay> jbicha: ok, misunderstood you. hopefully dpm's site will be helpful in this case.
<artnay> jbicha: that's up-to-date, right? at least http://91.189.93.101/net-wireless-troubleshooting.html is totally different compared to yelp's matching section
<jbicha> that server seems misconfigured, it's asking me to download the page
<jbicha> anyway, I'm on my way out for a bit
#ubuntu-doc 2012-03-29
<peppe84> guys: up https://bugs.launchpad.net/serverguide/+bug/964499 or we have a problema during building a local version.
<ubot2> Launchpad bug 964499 in serverguide "warning relate dm-multipath.xml. fix path or this page are not include in translate version" [Undecided,Confirmed]
<bkerensa> jbicha: I am not going to be able to finish this privacy before B2
<bkerensa> sorry about that but had some extra work from other teams I had to shoulder
<jbicha> bkerensa: no problem, I wasn't able to get done as much stuff as I wanted either
<jbicha> I believe we'll try for an SRU though
<jbicha> talk to you later
#ubuntu-doc 2012-03-30
<nothingspecial> Is information currently on https://help.ubuntu.com/ to be duplicated on  https://wiki.ubuntu.com. If so, will just creating a wiki page and providing a link to the help page be sufficient?
#ubuntu-doc 2012-03-31
<trijntje> Hi all. I want to translate ubuntu docs, but I see that 44 pages are marked as 'outdated', are these still exposed on launchpad, and what will happen to those pages?
<peppe84> Hi. About servergiude. I have a merge review request about this bug: https://bugs.launchpad.net/serverguide/+bug/964499
<ubot2> Launchpad bug 964499 in serverguide "warning relate dm-multipath.xml. fix path or this page are not include in translate version" [Undecided,Fix committed]
<jbicha> shaunm: do you think it would be better to just spell out <key>Print Screen</key>? I just looked at 4 different keyboards & they have 3 different ways of spelling it on the key, none of which matched what you used
<jbicha> in this lab are: Print Screen, PrtScn, PRTSC, Prt Scr, and Prt Sc
<trijntje> Hi all. I want to translate ubuntu docs, but I see that 44 pages are marked as 'outdated', are these still exposed on launchpad, and what will happen to those pages?
<jbicha> trijntje: hi, except for a few screenshots which I am working on this weekend, ubuntu-docs is string frozen
<jbicha> we'd like to do an SRU though, and the outdated pages are good targets for improvement
<trijntje> jbicha: ok thanks! There was an exachange about an extended deadline for the docs on the translators ML last week, but I see that the extended deadline has also passed
<Malizor> Hi everyone, I got a question about translations.
<Malizor> Ubuntu-doc is a fork of gnome-user-manual but these projects still share thousand of strings.
<Malizor> Why relevant translations are not imported automatically from upstream, as with all other Ubuntu apps ?
<Malizor> Actually, I did a manual import for French yesterday (so the translation went "magically" from 7% to 75%).
<Malizor> But this is a shame that I had to hack this myself.
<trijntje> Malizor: I'm not sure about that, you should probably ask in #ubuntu-translators
<Malizor> trijntje: ok, I will try there
<mdke> jbicha: hiya. THanks for all the great work recently, and sorry for the unresponsiveness. I'll be on holiday for the next 10 days or so, with plenty of time to help so let me know how things are going and when we need uploads etc
<jbicha> mdke: oh hi, I understand that life can be busy
#ubuntu-doc 2014-03-25
<pleia2> dsmythies: re: openstack guide, I'm pretty sure it's the separate guide that they've been developing, not a part of the server guide, which is why I asked on list
<pleia2> the patch you mention doesn't actually talk about openstack directly, it's more about virtualization in general
#ubuntu-doc 2014-03-27
<GunnarHj> dsmythies: ping?
#ubuntu-doc 2014-03-30
<ubuntiste-msakni> Hey guys! Any one have an idea how to show the loco dir events people in the ubuntu wiki using the XML format from the loco dir?
<ubuntiste-msakni> The loco dir have this xml page â http://loco.ubuntu.com/data/xml
#ubuntu-doc 2015-03-29
<knome> slickymaster,
<knome> was thinking we could have a spring on the community help wiki some day
<knome> to do... something
<knome> like, see what information is really useful there
<knome> and up-to-date
<knome> and try to gather an index of that
<slickymaster> yes
<slickymaster> I have all next weekend free knome
<knome> since nobody is certain what the future of the wiki will be, we should at least do something useful with the content
<knome> i don't know anything about my next weekend, but i plan to be the satruday off
<knome> meaning that if i can get people here, i'll be off
<slickymaster> this coming week will be difficult for me because of the implementation of the new framework
<knome> that's fine
<knome> it's not something to rush
<slickymaster> but from friday until sunday I'll be here
<slickymaster> right
<knome> i guess maybe the good starting point would be to try to make the frontpage more useful
<knome> it's currently linking to more and less useful pages
<knome> that link to more and less useful pages themself
<slickymaster> we'll we talked last year about doing this and we've been postponing it since them
<knome> pleia2, i guess there is no update on the statistics from the IS?
<slickymaster> s/we'll/we've
<knome> yep
<knome> we can even do a minisprint in 5 minutes
<slickymaster> fine with me
<slickymaster> Lag: 7.65 :P
<knome> hah
<knome> not minutes though?
<slickymaster> is pleia2 around?
<knome> probably not...
<slickymaster> nopes, seconds
<slickymaster> knome, we still have all this we collect last year -> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/slickymaster/LinksMergeSandbox
<knome> yyyyeah.
<knome> "Other pages in the wiki" should be somehow incorporated to the front page
<slickymaster> is that an existent set of pages/links?
<knome> ..what? :P
<knome> it's in the linksmergesandbox
<slickymaster> you're right
<slickymaster> didn't see it
<slickymaster> let me open the front page
<knome> well wait that 5 mins first... :P
<knome> or a few more
<knome> actually, i'm good to go now
<slickymaster> what's your idea for the Other pages...?
<slickymaster> put it below Further topics?
<knome> i don't know, but if people have thought they are important enough to link from "links" sections, maybe they are into something
<slickymaster> yes
<knome> just to start doing something useful, i opened the "Installation" page
<knome> i'm checking it quickly
<knome> and the links
<knome> i already hit one link that links to a page that says "delete me"
<slickymaster> was doing the some for the links in the Other pages
<knome> works for me
<slickymaster> first I hit -> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Signpost/Questions
<slickymaster> last action dates to 2011
<knome> the signpost pages...
<slickymaster> yes,
<knome> there are probably some good thoughts in there
<knome> eg. like how to organize subjects
<knome> but they are basically just reindexing other pages differently
<slickymaster> and Content cleanup, Style cleanup tags
<slickymaster> maybe we should check those, and any potential additions, before adding them to the front page
<slickymaster> and of course do the same for the alreday linked in the front page
<knome> yep
<knome> the installation and switching pages look relatively good as they are now
<slickymaster> yes
<slickymaster> we could divide the tables between us
<knome> i was thinking about dividing the tables - in another way
<knome> what would you say if we added headers for each table
<knome> eg. remove "Help topics"
<knome> and change that to "Installation"
<knome> then add "Hardware" for the next table
<slickymaster> I don't see why not
<knome> the preinstalled applications list is....
<knome> shouldn't we just remove all of those and link to packages.ubuntu.com ?
<knome> or do we think that the manual pick is somehow more useful or important?
<slickymaster> yes, I think we should knome
<knome> (which is last updated in 2013)
<knome> ok, i'll start purging that stuff
<slickymaster> I'd prefer it linked to packages.ubuntu.com
<slickymaster> btw last move on https://help.ubuntu.com/community/SwitchingToUbuntu/FromMacOSX is yours, from 2013
<knome> pleia2, sorry for the spam :]
<slickymaster> lol
<knome> slickymaster, yeah, that is when i was updating the icon stuff
<knome> gosh, this is a tangled thing
<slickymaster> what?
<knome> the software listing
<knome> the individual subcategories might be somewhat useful - so i intend to keep them
<knome> just remove the alphabetical listing
<slickymaster> damn
<knome> well at least for starters :D
<slickymaster> you're talking about https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Applications, aren't you?
<knome> yeah.
<slickymaster> let me refresh it
<knome> in what way?
<knome> i have the edit lock, keep away :P
<slickymaster> I mean my browser
<knome> ;)
<slickymaster> you haven't commited it yet
<knome> nope...
<knome> i said it's tangled
<slickymaster> lol
<slickymaster> that's nothing for the likes of you
<knome> can refresh now, first steps taken
<slickymaster> ok
<slickymaster> tic-toc tic-toc
<knome> from the "External links", we could keep osalt.com and ubuntu apps dir
<knome> though how the latter site says (c) 2012
<knome> well, it's still linked from the main navi, so...
<slickymaster> well, it states that it's supporting Lucid and later releases
<slickymaster> yeah, but the others should be dropped
<knome> yep
<knome> another update landed
<knome> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/AccessoriesApplications
<knome> talks about 8.04...
<slickymaster> that one is really outdated
<knome> this list could be much more useful if it was a list/table
<knome> the same thing with all of those subpages
<knome> what if we dropped those pages and linked to the corresponding packages.ubuntu.com places anyway?
<slickymaster> isn't it weird that we're fiddling them and not updating the content in some of them
<knome> i don't know how useful it is to update the application list now
<knome> it'll be outdated in a year
<knome> then it needs another update
<knome> if we link it to a place that's kept up-to-date automatically, we save the work
<slickymaster> hence linking it to packages.ubuntu.com is the only safe solution
<knome> yep
<knome> so, what about the links stufF?
<slickymaster> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/EducationApplications suffers from the same issue
<knome> i think it's fine as it is, you should just land it *somewhere*
<knome> then point all the link pages to that page
<slickymaster> the links present here knome: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/slickymaster/LinksMergeSandbox#Other_pages_in_the_wiki ?
<knome> them, and the rest in the sandbox
<knome> at least those that are processed
<knome> even if it meant you landed a bunch of similar ones
<slickymaster> maybe create a new page just with the usable links, since the the sandboc also contains a lot of garbage, links wise
<knome> works for me
<slickymaster> and land that page where knome? any ideas?
<knome> no, just any
<slickymaster> heh
<slickymaster> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Links already exists
<knome> you can overwrite that, or temporarily create another page
<slickymaster> I think I'll opt for the latter
<knome> :)
<slickymaster> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/ResourcesLinks
<knome> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Games
<knome> that might be of interest to some, so keeping for now
<knome> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/GraphicsApplications
<knome> has some potentially interesting links about licensing
<slickymaster> yeah, gamers are more than many
<slickymaster> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Programming, even though isn't touched since 2012 is a keeper imo
<knome> oh
<knome> i just redirected it
<knome> i think it had a lot of babble
<slickymaster> well the IDEs mentioned there are pretty much what's still used these days
<knome> do you think it's worth reverting?
 * knome shrugs
<knome> libreoffice is still used today, but i still redirected the office page
<slickymaster> where did you redirect the programming one?
<knome> the main applications page
<slickymaster> to where, that is
<knome> as all the others
<slickymaster> ok, don't revert it tehn
<slickymaster> * then
 * slickymaster is still waiting to loginb
<knome> ouch
<slickymaster> after all this time: Internal Server Error
 * slickymaster reloads
<knome> hah
<slickymaster> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Servers is wat too extensive
<slickymaster> s/wat/way
<knome> wat?
<knome> heh
<knome> is there something to keep?
<slickymaster> on that one knome?
<knome> yes
<slickymaster> I can only answer regarding what I do know knome
 * knome looks
<slickymaster> most of the stuff is unknown to me
<slickymaster> in https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Servers#Database I'd keep everything
<knome> well i mean
<knome> those are available in packages.ubuntu.com if you search for databases, right?
<slickymaster> not all
<knome> aha..
<knome> like what isnt?
<slickymaster> I believe Ingres isn't
<knome> yeah, that page is from 2009
<slickymaster> PostgresSQL alno not, I think
<knome> most be useful :)
<knome> no?
<knome> !info postresql
<knome> no ubottu
<slickymaster> It isn't knome
<slickymaster> i checked
<knome> aha
<knome> then maybe that is worth keeping
<knome> but then it becomes cherry-picking
<slickymaster> yes
<slickymaster> Oracle 1o g also isn't and should be kept
<slickymaster> I work with it, is a dam good database
<slickymaster> *damn
<knome> :D
<slickymaster> well, that page is really one to be cherry-picking
<slickymaster> I'll do it while you do something else
<knome> yeah, i'm working on the main page
<knome> ...still
<slickymaster> no I get a Proxy Error
<slickymaster> I'm unable to login
<slickymaster> Reason: Error reading from remote server
<knome> :D
<knome> so
<knome> you are saying that we should keep the links to any software that isn't in the repositories?
<slickymaster> yes
<knome> okay
<knome> then you might want to scour the pages i redirected
<knome> i don't think there were many, but...
<knome> and may i ask
<knome> while i understand the logic for keeping those
<knome> what's the goal?
<slickymaster> making people know they they're usable in *buntu sor starters knome
<knome> but we can't test that
<knome> and even if somebody tested that, it might have been in 2009
<slickymaster> me neither, just a few
<knome> maybe the application is not maintained since 2010
<slickymaster> those are maintained for sure, what we're not sure is if *bubtu still manages to accept some of them
<knome> yeah
<slickymaster> *buntu ecosystem
<knome> so what's the goal?
<knome> you said to let people know they are usable for ubuntu
<knome> but... we don't know
<slickymaster> don't know how to answer that from another point of view tbh
<slickymaster> I see, and agree, with your point knome
<slickymaster> and truth is the only way to circumvent this doubt is almost impossible
<slickymaster> unless we go door to door asking
<knome> yep
<knome> and that means constant work if we want to keep the wiki up-to-date
<slickymaster> drop them
<slickymaster> constant and insane
<knome> yeah
<knome> which is why i dropped the pages i did
<knome> but
<slickymaster> that's it, I'm unable to log in at the wiki
<knome> there's a point with keeping the server stuff
<slickymaster> but not the web applications
<knome> the point is, that page has links to actual guides on doing something else than just introduce the apps
<knome> yeah...
<slickymaster> for the same reason as above
 * slickymaster agrees with the server
<slickymaster> stuff
<knome> so what we should have
<knome> is a tutorial landing page
<slickymaster> yes, the wat we're thinking it, yes
<slickymaster> Damn s/wat/way
<knome> haha
<slickymaster> I'm becoming elfy... with fat fingers
<knome> haha
<knome> ;)
<knome> don't tell elfy he has fat fingers
<slickymaster> I know
<knome> so, what did we achieve at the front pge :P
<slickymaster> nothing much yet
<knome> yeah...
<slickymaster> \o/ logged in
<knome> haha, great
<slickymaster> going to take care of the links page
<knome> nice
<knome> slickymaster, feeling lucky? https://help.ubuntu.com/community/RecommendedApplications
<knome> do we want to keep that?
<knome> i would drop it...
<slickymaster> so would I
<knome> doing that
<slickymaster> now that I'm logged I can't open the page for edit
<slickymaster> :P
<knome> lol
<knome> see the apps main page
<slickymaster> in the Apllications Guide section the numbered list is wrong knome
<knome> it's not
<knome> it's two lists
<knome> the latter one is WIP
<slickymaster> oh
<knome> practically i'd like to drop most of it anyway
<knome> you might have noticed i turned the front page stuff around a bit
<slickymaster> haven't yet
 * knome sighs
<knome> maybe the world is a tiny bit better place now
<knome> or then not
<slickymaster> ok knome, https://help.ubuntu.com/community/ResourcesLinks is ready
 * knome checks
<slickymaster> let me check the front page
<knome> ok, looks good to me
<knome> now let's forward the other pages to that page
<slickymaster> you moved the applications to the first table
<knome> yep
<slickymaster> which is the proper place for it tbh
<knome> and switched glossary/other resources boxes
<slickymaster> yes, noticing that now
<knome> also dropped several topics to the "further topics" table
<knome> which is the crappety-crap dumpster now
<knome> i mean :P
<knome> the place for random links of course
<slickymaster> and there are tons of those
<knome> yeah
<knome> there are even more that just aren't visible
<knome> i guess the next useful thing
<knome> would be to "find" all landing pages
<knome> for whatever subject
<knome> like mac support
<knome> and start listing those in the front page
<slickymaster> maybe we could engage krytarik to help us with that
<knome> why not
<slickymaster> if he'd be willing to
<knome> everybody should help with that
<knome> and we should send an email about that to the list
<slickymaster> let me see if he's still around
<slickymaster> knome are you going to forward the other pages to https://help.ubuntu.com/community/ResourcesLinks
<knome> or maybe we should make Links the mainpage
<knome> and redirect the rest there
<knome> what do you think?
<slickymaster> tbh honest not sure what would be best
<knome> links is shortest
<knome> if we're going to redirect everything to one page anyway...
<slickymaster> go with that then
<knome> ok, shuffling
<knome> done
 * slickymaster checks
<slickymaster> before doing that knome, I was taking a look at https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Glossary
<knome> yes?
<slickymaster> and noticed that https://help.ubuntu.com/community/DuncanLithgow (in the contributors at the bottom) doesn't exist
<slickymaster> maybe I could remove it from there
<knome> imo, the whole glossary page is... a bit in vain
<knome> but we can keep it
<knome> and you can definitely remove that note
<slickymaster> oki
<slickymaster> it's seems ok
<knome> the links page could have some kind of intro
<slickymaster> your shuffling
<knome> of course it's ok! :P
<slickymaster> lol
<slickymaster> yeah, the current one is too 'in-your-face'
#ubuntu-doc 2017-03-28
<CoderEurope> Flannel, ping
<CoderEurope> godbyk: ping
<godbyk> Hi, CoderEurope.
<CoderEurope> Hiya, hoping to do some documentation for the N4, N7-2013 & Ubuntu edition Aquaris E5 that I have - again, I have these devices on Ubuntu - information-wise where are we lacking ?
<CoderEurope> godbyk: ^5
<godbyk> CoderEurope, that's a good question. I have no idea, I'm afraid. (I'm on hiatus from the docs team at the moment, so I'm behind on all the latest activity.)
<godbyk> You might email the ubuntu-docs mailing list and ask there.
<CoderEurope> godbyk: who shall I ask here ??
<godbyk> I don't know who, specifically, would know the answer. But since you've already posted your question here the others can read it and may reply if they know the answer.
<CoderEurope> godbyk: so who else here in the docu-team ?
<Perigee> Hi, how do I create a page on the Wiki? I'd like to document a number of tweaks/improvements for my XPS 13 laptop that would be useful for many other users. I've logged in and tried to create one, but get a permissions error.
#ubuntu-doc 2017-03-31
<CoderEurope> did say - that there was an all day ubuntu-docs session on #ubuntu-on-air today?
<Ool> Hi, On this page https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UFW#Interpreting_Log_Entries there is a misspelling psuedo => pseudo
<PaulW2U> Ool: spelling corrected
<Ool> PaulW2U: ok thanks, Have a nice day
