#edubuntu 2009-12-28
<seeker_> while runnig the instance using eucalyptus on Ubuntu, I am facing problem. Can some one help me in this?
<jussi01> seeker_: best if you just state the problem and see...
<seeker_> jussi01: I didn't get you
<jussi01> seeker_: Dont use Pm ;) ANd just ask your question, and see if someone knows thew answer - how can we say we can help you if we dont know what the question is...
<alkisg> !ask
<ubottu> Please don't ask to ask a question, simply ask the question (all on ONE line and in the channel, so that others can read and follow it easily). If anyone knows the answer they will most likely reply. :-)
<seeker_>  when I type ec2-describe-availability-zones verbose, i am getting all 0/0 and no node is listed. Any help?
 * alkisg wonders what amazon cloud has to do with edubuntu...
<Guest19934> hey
<alkisg> ÎÎ¹
<Guest19934> i have to install edubuntu, is it ok doing that an an P2-266/96Mb Laptop? Sry this question, i can't find the minimum Hardware requirements as fast as i want.
<Guest19934> Is it possible choosing gnome/kde desktop within the installer?
<Guest19934> ...or xfce4?
<Guest19934> *sry, "edubuntu+requirements" searching helps.
<Guest19934> 256MB minimum.
<Guest19934> bye
<highvoltage> heh @ http://overbenny.wordpress.com/2009/12/26/love-and-hate-search-results/
<sbalneav> Morning all
<highvoltage> morning sbalneav
 * alkisg has tried sharing the (ed)ubuntu live cd over nfs, it worked perfectly. I even timed it, and there was no significant time difference.
<alkisg> (difference between 1=plain booting from the live cd, or 2=booting a "server" with the live cd, and then booting the client over nfs)
<highvoltage> cool
<highvoltage> our bug day is in about 2 weeks
<highvoltage> I'd like to make some announcements and noise about it next week
<highvoltage> I guess we could plan what we'll do at tomorrow night's meeting, but it would be good to think of some ideas in the meantime
<alkisg> As it's holidays, and people don't read their emails often, it'd be better to make the announcement asap.
<highvoltage> yep, I was just thinking it would be kind of useful to announce more or less what we'd do on the bug day
<highvoltage> I guess the usual triaging, fixing, etc
<alkisg> When are we going to have the first edubuntu Lucid alpha release?
<alkisg> (do we have daily builds for testing?)
<highvoltage> on january 14th with the Lucid alpha 2: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LucidReleaseSchedule
<highvoltage> builds: http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/edubuntu/dvd/
<sbalneav> I need to release a new sabayon by then, and get one of you to sponsor it.
<sbalneav> so we can get it in the alpha to test
<highvoltage> sbalneav: if you upload it to revu you can ping me and stgraber to review it
<sbalneav> ok
<sbalneav> will do.
<alkisg> I'm going to install the edubuntu daily to my laptop, anything particular to look for?
<highvoltage> sbalneav: and if you need any help with that then feel free to ping/harrass/etc
<sbalneav> I think there's instructions for how to build a package from a git checkout, in terms of the naming.
<sbalneav> I could just do that today.
<highvoltage> cool
<sbalneav> hm, I'll have to make a new upstream release.
<sbalneav> Shhhhhoooooldnt be a problem for me.
<sbalneav> Seeing as how I have all the keys to the barn on the gnonme side. :)
<alkisg> Heh, gnome upstream first, motu after. Doesn't sound right... ;)
<sbalneav> Well, I don't mean to put to fine a point on it.
<sbalneav> But there's a little something wrong with Ubuntu's method when after a year's contribution to Gnome, I become upstream simply by asking one person, and Federico simply vouches for me, and that's it: I'm in, whereas after 4+ years contributing to Ubuntu, I still have to go before a panel of experts to prove my worth :)
<sbalneav> But, the procedure is what the procedure is.
 * alkisg thinks that sbalneav could have become a motu 4 years ago with no preperation at all :)
<sbalneav> No, I tried
<sbalneav> I was told I "wasn't ready yet"
<alkisg> Ooooh :(
<sbalneav> bbiab, off to make my kiddies some breakfast.
<sbalneav> Then I'll get another sabayon out the door, and dump some stuff in REVU
<alkisg> That was silly of them. You shouldn't *have* to know packaging to become a motu
<alkisg> Knowing C should be enough...
<highvoltage> alkisg: you don't have to know any C to become a MOTU
<highvoltage> alkisg: and knowing how to package seems kind of imporant for giving someone rights to make changes to packages :)
<alkisg> highvoltage: sure, maybe a phrased it wrong, I meant that sbalneav knows C, and that should be enough
<alkisg> highvoltage: not really. He could work as part of a team.
<highvoltage> I agree that sbalneav knows enough, I think once we get his packages in universe that should be enough motivation for the developer board to approve him
<alkisg> E.g. sbalneav has been upstream for LTSP even before Ubuntu began its history...
<alkisg> And, another member of the team, vagrantc, doesn't know any C at all but is a really good packager. That's what teams are for; not all should know the same stuff..
<highvoltage> that still doesn't add much weight to that knowing C should be enough of a qualifier.
<mhall119|work> what does knowing C have to do with being MOTU?
<alkisg> sbalneav is upstream for sabayon. Another guy packaged it. Suppose sbalneav doesn't know anything about packaging, except for debuild and dput. Why wouldn't he be a MOTU?
<alkisg> Isn't motu about being able to upload newer package versions? Is that ALWAYS related to packaging? Or some times it is about new features?
<highvoltage> alkisg: if you haven't gotten much packaging experience, you can easily destroy many users' systems by uploading a bad package
<alkisg> Well I suppose that any developer knows when he doesn't know enough about something and when he'd need help...
<highvoltage> alkisg: in the past, some very big problems were even caused by experienced packagers, in short, you want someone who have at least taken the time to learn how to package and applied for upload rights
<alkisg> So is motu mainly about packaging? Not about programming?
<highvoltage> alkisg: yes
<alkisg> Ah. A misunderstanding of mine, then :)
<alkisg> Thanks for clearing it up :)
<highvoltage> MOTU stands for Masters of The Universe, it's literally the people who take care of the packaging in the 'universe' section of ubuntu
<alkisg> In my mind I had this scenario: "I'm a developer. I ask someone to package my program, and then I mainly change the changelog, or bump the standards versions, and I ask for help when I want to change something more. So I apply to be a MOTU to be able to upload newer versions of my program to universe".
<alkisg> But I guess it goes like this: "I'm a developer. Either I learn *well* how to package on my own, or I find some MOTU to always do it for me".
<alkisg> So in the LTSP example, vagrantc would be MOTU and upstream, and sbalneav would be "just" upstream. OK...
<highvoltage> alkisg: yep, something like taht
<highvoltage> alkisg: although vagrantc has debian upload rights iirc, so he can also upload to Debian and then it would land in Ubuntu
<alkisg> Yeah it was just an example, "ignoring" vagrantc's relationship with Debian...
<highvoltage> but if he wanted to change things in ubuntu directly he'd get his changes sponsored and if he wants to do so often, then a motu
<alkisg> OK, I think I got it, thanks highvoltage :)
<sbalneav> Back
<highvoltage> Front
<sbalneav> Side
<highvoltage> Otherside
<sbalneav> top
<highvoltage> great, now I'm going to have red hot chilli peppers stuck in my head
<sbalneav> What you got you got to get it put it in you
<highvoltage> rofl
<sbalneav> California rest in peace simultaneous release
<highvoltage> the music video for that song is disturbing
<stgraber> how, looks like we have a party in this chan ? :)
<stgraber> *oh
<sbalneav> Hey, I'm doing a simultaneous release now!
<highvoltage> stgraber: heh, yes. it's way too easy to get distracted :)
<sbalneav> I'm gonna release an upstream rc candidate for Sabayon, then release a version to my ppa, and into revu! :)
<sbalneav> uno momento
<highvoltage> sbalneav: RHCP would be so proud
<highvoltage> btw, feel free to add comments or questions etc at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Edubuntu/Specifications/LucidNetbookOption
<alkisg> Looks good...
<alkisg> I'm trying the edubuntu Lucid daily build. Note #1: it doesn't autologin, and, as the "ubuntu" user doesn't even exist, it doesn't login either. I'll create a user to continue...
<alkisg> Ugh, after creating a user and killing gdm and X a few times I was able to login
<sbalneav> You know, the older I get, the less tolerant i become of people who do not seem to be able to spend 10 seconds to pop a few search terms into google.
<alkisg> sbalneav: nah moldy is OK. It's not like he was asking for something trivial..
<alkisg> You *did* remember part of the answer to google it, right? ;)
<sbalneav> No, my search terms were:
<sbalneav> ltsp-discuss display on all terminals
<alkisg> Wow... I wouldn't bet on that giving results!
<sbalneav> and it's like the first link.
<alkisg> I'd put something with XAUTHORITY there to make sure!
<sbalneav> But, you see, that's what I find aggrivating.  If people came in and said "You know, I've googled around for the following terms and haven't found anything, and looked back at the last year of ltsp-discuss archives, and didn't find anything, can someone help?" it's like "Sure!  I'll help!
<alkisg> Oooouch I wouldn't want you as my employer :P Com'on, we've dealt with worse cases in the past! ;)
<alkisg> I do hope they (=Lns + modly) get tcm-ng up and going, though, it has great potential...
<alkisg> Note #2: we should really ditch that Programming > Qt3 assistant somehow...
<sbalneav> Sure.  But it's like, people seem to miss the entire POINT of the internet, an mailing list archives, and... everything.  They don't seem to get that the whole POINT of archiving information is... so that you can SEARCH it for the answer at some point in the future.  It's like someone wandering into here and saying "So, can someone tell me what's edubuntu's focus
<sbalneav> ?
<sbalneav> I'm just grumpy today
<sbalneav> ignore me.
<alkisg> Sure, you got a point
<sbalneav> My lucid virtualbox is updating.
<alkisg> It's just that we've had worse cases, and even then you were helpful... so don't try to sound too harsh ;)
<alkisg> Back to Qt3 assistant, I think that ancient stuff is pulled from qcad docs, maybe we could ship qcad without its docs?
<sbalneav> Well, either that, or can we fix qcad's docs packaging so it doesn't import the assistant?
<sbalneav> lemme look at the deps...
<alkisg> It uses it to display them. I don't know nothing about qt3/4 so I don't know if there's a qt4 version available...
<sbalneav> Wonder what the docs are in?
<sbalneav> are they docbook, or something else?
 * alkisg looks...
<sbalneav> they look like they're just HTML
<sbalneav> couldn't we just depend on one of the meta-programs like "html-viewer"?
<alkisg> "this manual was created with manstyle"
<sbalneav> ah, I see
<alkisg> It looks like it's their own product?
<sbalneav> qcad itself's a QT program
<alkisg> Ah maybe we can hide the menu with edubuntu-menus, and be done with it :P
<alkisg> It's really ugly to have a "programming" menu with just an unusable qt3 assistant in there...
<sbalneav> Yeah, I'd say an override on the menu would be the best way to go.
<sbalneav> some xdg magic, maybe?
<alkisg> I think we'll ship edubuntu-menus by default, won't we?
<alkisg> So in the default profile, we could have the assistant hidden...
<alkisg> "Kalzium" is in the "Science" menu, and "Kalgebra" in "Education"? weird...
<alkisg> And "Kanagram" and "Khangman" are in both education and games...
<sbalneav> yeah, the menus need some love
<sbalneav> OK, time to cook a new sabayon release
<sbalneav> highvoltage: pingity
<sbalneav> stgraber: pongity
#edubuntu 2009-12-29
<sbalneav> Morning all
<sbalneav> I am so freamking mad I could spit.
<sbalneav> So, after spending MONTHS getting sabayon to work, and testing compiles in lucid, to make sure it works THERE as well, I did a push (with stgrabers help) up to lucid.
<sbalneav> sabayon works great, if started with sudo
<alkisg> sbalneav: relax man... what's troubling you?
<sbalneav> but now, gksu's broken!!!
<sbalneav> Whaaaaaa
<sbalneav> I can't catch a break :)
<alkisg> So if you start it with gksu it doesn't work?
<sbalneav> Yeah, under karmic, you can start sabayon fine under gksu, and under BOTH you can start sabayon with sudo, if you xhost+ before you start.
<sbalneav> yeah, doesn't work on lucid under gksu
<alkisg> Policykit1 issues, I imagine?
<alkisg> !info gpaint
<ubottu> gpaint (source: gpaint): GNU Paint - a small, easy to use paint program for GNOME. In component main, is optional. Version 0.3.3-3ubuntu1 (karmic), package size 114 kB, installed size 772 kB
<alkisg> !info gpaint lucid
<ubottu> gpaint (source: gpaint): GNU Paint - a small, easy to use paint program for GNOME. In component main, is optional. Version 0.3.3-3ubuntu1 (lucid), package size 114 kB, installed size 772 kB
<sbalneav> alkisg: not sure :(
<sbalneav> One of the things I used to like about Linux/Unix was how it was simple and made sense.  Now with DeviceKit/PolicyKit/D-Bus, etc, it's getting... not simple.
<sbalneav> I'll have to fix it, I assume.
<stgraber> sbalneav: did you try with gksudo ?
<sbalneav> yeah
<sbalneav> both exhibit the same problem.
<sbalneav> gksu itself hasn't changed versions from karmic, but libgksu has
<sbalneav> so, obviously, something's gotten "mucked up"
<stgraber> sbalneav: what exactly is failing ?
<sbalneav> it fails with an assertion error that some string shouldn't be null
<sbalneav> By the time I got it last night, I was too p.o'd to dig into it.
<sbalneav> I'll have to figure out what's failing tonight.
<stgraber> sbalneav: looking at LP, it's not the only software that's this issue
<sbalneav> really?
<sbalneav> links?
<sbalneav> brb
<stgraber> sbalneav: jockey had the same issue
<alkisg> gksu output: http://paste.ubuntu.com/348614
<sbalneav> yeah, that's it.
<sbalneav> how did jockey solve it, or haven't they yet?
<stgraber> sbalneav: looks like jockey had the issue because they used policykit but not completely correctly
<stgraber> I suspect it's not sabayon's case ?
<sbalneav> sabayon doesn't use policykit at all.
<sbalneav> I shouldn't NEED to use policykit: I'm using gksu
<alkisg> sbalneav: gksu gksu ls ==> has the same problem
<alkisg> So gksu doesn't work with gksu...
<alkisg> So if you want, make an "if I'm root, don't call gksu"
<stgraber> alkisg: well, it's failling as regular user too
<alkisg> stgraber: what is failing?
<stgraber> stgraber@castiana:~$ gksu sabayon
<stgraber> MainThread 2009/12/29 10:58:13.5550 (admin-tool): Creating profiles dialog
<stgraber> (gksu:27662): GLib-CRITICAL **: g_str_has_prefix: assertion `str != NULL' failed
<alkisg> Right, I mean this:
<alkisg> sabayon must have a gksu call inside its code,
<alkisg> so if you also run it with gksu, it fails
<stgraber> it doesn't
<stgraber> stgraber@castiana:~$ grep -r gksu /usr/share/pyshared/sabayon/
<stgraber> stgraber@castiana:~$ grep -r gksu /usr/bin/sabayon
<sbalneav> No, it never sudo's within the code
<stgraber> it's just checking if you're root or not in the code, if you are it shows an error message
<sbalneav> it just checks to see if it's running as root
<sbalneav> it's a pythin script, and there's no way to make setuid python scripts
<sbalneav> that's why we need gksu
<sbalneav> and gksu SHOULD work.
<sbalneav> I don't buy into this whole "YOU SHOULD REWRITE YOUR ENTIRE APP TO USE POLCYKIT" philosophy
<sbalneav> especially seeing as policy kit is horribly horribly broken for remote X displays.
<sbalneav> see: can't run the user add window over a thin client.
<sbalneav> alkisg: Good point on gpaint.
<sbalneav> I'd support dropping it for kolourpaint.
<alkisg> sbalneav: thanks, well, it's nothing important, it's just package selection, but why include a broken app when there's a much, much better one available?
<alkisg> Anyway. Shouldn't there be an /etc/pam.d/sabayon file? I don't see  it in Lucid...
<sbalneav> no, it's not really needed.
<sbalneav> I'm not sure why the heck sabayon includes one, seeing as how sabayon never talks to pam
<sbalneav> I think it may be an artifact.  Let me check the code to be sure
<sbalneav> yeah, it was from 2005 when sabayon was using consolehelper
<sbalneav> so the sabayon.console and sabayon.pam files can actually disappear
<alkisg> sbalneav: btw, `gksu non-existant-app` has the same problem, and `gksu -w sabayon` works fine.
<sbalneav> -w?
 * sbalneav mans
<sbalneav> ah, force it to use su, and not sudo
<sbalneav> ah, only problem with THAT is, you need a root password :(
<sbalneav> so that's not gonna fly.
<sbalneav> Whoohoo!
<sbalneav> Gotta love the gnome admins, one of them just did a redir for me so that projects.gnome.org/sabayon now points to live.gnome.org/Sabayo
<sbalneav> so the old, horridly out of date website's gone
<sbalneav> Sigh.  It would be nice if there was a "policykit migration guide" out there.  The docs on freedesktop.org talk about what policykit IS and how to use it, but give no good help on how to actually think about porting an existing app to use it.
<sbalneav> and googleing about doesn't seem to be turning up anything obvious for me.
<sbalneav> Tried "PolicyKit Migration" and "PolicyKit Porting", etc.
<sbalneav> So very very frustrating.
<stgraber> meeting in 45min
<stgraber> highvoltage: do we have an agenda written somewhere ?
<stgraber> highvoltage: for this one, I'd propose we follow-up on the spec work that has been done, maybe sbalneav will want to say a few words about sabayon and we may have to discuss the bug/wiki/doc days ? (not sure)
<highvoltage> stgraber: yep
<highvoltage> stgraber: I'll update the agenda
<highvoltage> stgraber: from my side I'd feel good if we could decide more or less what we'll do on the bug day so that we can announce it
<stgraber> right
<highvoltage> Edubuntu meeting in #ubuntu-meeting in ~10mins
<Lns> woah!
<Lns> i'm gonna make a meeting?!
<stgraber> Lns: heeh
 * Lns is not up on the current meeting schedule
<Lns> i still have fridays on my cal
<HedgeMage> lol
<highvoltage> (meeting in #ubuntu-meeting)
<alkisg> sbalneav: ^^
<sbalneav> back
<moldy> hi
<highvoltage> moldy: stgraber and myself can upload to the archives
 * Lns gets some coffee from the break room and walks in
<highvoltage> moldy: currently, there's an archive reorganisation taking place which will allow us to have an edubuntu-dev group that will be able to upload
<moldy> highvoltage: ok, great. some months ago, i took a look at ubuntu python packaging... i hope that i remember enough to create decent ubuntu packages out of our python packages
<alkisg> Isn't there also a new app that packages python applications? What was its name, quickly? Can that be used?
<highvoltage> moldy: well feel free to ask if you ever need any help
<Lns> moldy, http://www.gnomefiles.org/app.php/TcosMonitor - wow, another app! i'll add it to the "other software" page on the tcm wiki
<highvoltage> alkisg: I believe that's just for software that's actually created using quickly
<moldy> highvoltage: thank you
<moldy> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/PackagingGuide/Python i used that guide last time
<alkisg> Lns: also here: http://wiki.tcosproject.org/Utils/TcosMonitor
<alkisg> There's also controlaula but I didn't like it at all
<Lns> hmm, tcosmonitor has vnc support, including 'demo-mode' screen broadcast
<alkisg> That's why I mentioned it, and it's in python, so it might be useful ;)
<nixternal> hey, when we have a set schedule for meetings, pass it on and I will put it on the fridge (if I can figure it out again)
<Lns> alkisg, yeah.. looks like it has a ton of functionality in it..is it stable? have you used it on ltsp?
<alkisg> Nope.
<alkisg> I've just read about it, I haven't ran it
<Lns> tcos seems like a great project, and something that ltsp people could share resources with...
<Lns> for instance it's supposed to have an incredible web config interface
 * alkisg would really prefer to give a hand to upstream italc development... it has the most potential...
<moldy> i would probably join italc upstream if it wasn't in c++...
<alkisg> tcos can also use italc for vnc transport
<Lns> alkisg, don't you still have the 2 different config options for italc (install in chroot vs. not) ?
<Lns> that in itself sure is confusing to newcomers
<alkisg> Well choice isn't really the problem
<alkisg> Firefox can also be installed as a localapp, we don't blame firefox for that...
<alkisg> italc can also be used in a mixed environment, with ltsp, standalone, and even windows clients
<Lns> but i'd say 90% of the time people will want to be able to fully control clients instead of just a user session, right? and that requires manual chroot configuration and again, last time i checked it was very buggy to get that going
<alkisg> What do you mean with  "full control"?
<Lns> as in, you don't have to have a logged-in-user to control the client
<alkisg> Well, you don't
<alkisg> I can power on my clients and I don't have italc installed in the chroot
<Lns> but can you power them down at ldm?
<alkisg> Sure, if I put a tiny patch in italc
<alkisg> That's why I was saying I'd join italc upstream...
<Lns> italc currently has its own communications facilities for that right? as in, not ssh/dbus/etc?
<Lns> ics or what not
<moldy> i havn't used italc myself. it seems to have some nice features. but i regard c++ as a real problem. slow development, many bugs.
<alkisg> Yes, it supports encrypted communication
<alkisg> It'd be nice if it used telepathy, but it wouldn't be cross platform then
<moldy> italc has a service running on the clients to do stuff like locking screens?
<alkisg> Yes
<stgraber> yep
<highvoltage> sbalneav: thanks for adding the times that you'd be able to attend for November 2009 :)
<alkisg> moldy: here's a good screenshot: http://italc.sourceforge.net/screenshots.php?img=italc-1.0.0_2.jpg&label=4
<highvoltage> sbalneav: unfortunately, because of the Ubuntu Temporal Prime Directive, I'm not allowed to alter meetings that has happened in the past
<alkisg> lol :)
 * Lns can only imagine how slow that screenshot actually ran :)
<alkisg> What do you mean?
<Lns> 20 concurrent vnc sessions heh
<alkisg> I've used it with 12 sessions with no problems...
<sbalneav> Buh,
<sbalneav> I thought the dates were funny.
<alkisg> Although (in the lab where the broadcasting mode always crashed) plain x11vnc performed much better.
<sbalneav> Does anyone know of a good "how to polkit your application" document?
<alkisg> highvoltage: are we going to ship edubuntu-menus in lucid? We could hide qt3-assistant with those...
<sbalneav> I've googled around for a good tutorial or migration strategies... but to no real avail
<moldy> sbalneav: i polkitted tcm some time ago (reverted to no polkit for now since then)
<moldy> sbalneav: trying to re-google the documents i used...
<moldy> http://hal.freedesktop.org/docs/PolicyKit/ http://techbase.kde.org/Development/Tutorials/PolicyKit/Helper_HowTo
<highvoltage> alkisg: I think so
<alkisg> Nice
<moldy> sbalneav: i had to read lots of the polkit library reference to understand stuff... i don't think there is a really good tutorial... those kde docs helped me, though
<sbalneav> yeah, the freedesktop.org link's good for the tech stuff, but not on a "how to migrade an existing app"
<sbalneav> I'll look at the second.
<alkisg> moldy: it think it should be polkit-1 nowadays... policykit is deprecated
<moldy> alkisg: what's polkit-1?
<alkisg> http://drfav.wordpress.com/2009/12/22/polkit-and-kde-lets-make-the-point-of-the-situation/
<alkisg> From Karmic and on, ubuntu uses polkit-1, the successor of policykit
<sbalneav> Bleh.  yeah, there seems to be no way to "simply convert" an existing application.
<sbalneav> complete. rewrite. of. sabayon.
<moldy> alkisg: ah. well, i guess the general concepts did not change that much, though?
<sbalneav> yeesh
<alkisg> moldy: I don't know, I just read about them over a related bug I experienced...
<alkisg> I haven't done any developement related to them
<sbalneav> 'spose I could just toplevel it.
<sbalneav> instead of executing "sabayon", the whole freaking app becomes one gigantic service.
<sbalneav> "PolicyKit was created exactly to make the whole process easier and more secure"
<sbalneav> AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
<sbalneav> *snort*
<highvoltage> sbalneav: that's like any project with "simple" or "easy" or "lightweight" in it's name :)
<highvoltage> alkisg: stgraber just informed me that the changes have been pushed so gpaint is now gone
<sbalneav> \o/
<alkisg> highvoltage: much appreciated ;)
<stgraber> I'm actually waiting for Jordan, I have a small question about the meta packages
<stgraber> the seeds are ok but we need to sync the meta on it and I can't find a bzr branch for it, would like to confirm that we don't have one somewhere
<alkisg> sbalneav: file:///usr/share/doc/policykit-1-doc/html/index.html
<highvoltage> stgraber: since we're on LP issues... shouldn't we have an "edubuntu" project registered in LP?
<highvoltage> stgraber: I think Jordan mentioned it before but I can't remember what the outcome was
<sbalneav> alkisg: that's the same stuff off the freedesktop.org site
<sbalneav> and... unless I'm missing something, I can't see python bindings for polkit
<alkisg> http://hal.freedesktop.org/docs/PolicyKit/ is for the old version
<alkisg> The new version isn't backwards compatible...
<sbalneav> http://hal.freedesktop.org/docs/polkit/
<sbalneav> that's what I was looking at
<alkisg> OK
<alkisg> I saw the link moldy posted above..
<sbalneav> the second one moldy came up with is better, but still not perfect.
<moldy> what's perfect in this world? ;)
<sbalneav> oddly enough, when I googled for "PolicyKit tutorial, that doc was nowhere to be found
<moldy> google often misses important stuff, in my experience
<sbalneav> I'm still not seeing any direct polkit python bindings, which means to interact with polkit in sabayon, i'm going to have to talk directly with dbus, which sucks.
<moldy> there are python bindings
<alkisg> google for link:http://hal.freedesktop.org/docs/polkit/ => 8 results
<alkisg> I don't blame google for this..
<moldy> well, i am not blaming them, i am blaming our culture that imho relies too much on google :)
<moldy> sbalneav: http://pypi.python.org/pypi/pypolkit/0.1
<sbalneav> aptitude search pypolkit
<moldy> sbalneav: for that "helper" scenario, pypolkit is missing a binding, though. i think i have a patch lying around here that adds that binding...
<sbalneav> no results
<moldy> sbalneav: i don't remember wether it was included in ubuntu or not
<sbalneav> I like how I'm told in #ubuntu-devel I should convert to polkit, when the freaking tools I'd need TO CONVERT TO POLKIT aren't there.
<sbalneav> and johnny poo-pooed me for calling polkit the flavour of the month
<sbalneav> cripes, this is no way to run a railroad.
<moldy> sbalneav: if ubuntu is using polkit-1 or what's it called by now, i guess the python bindings won't work at all, anyway... someone has to write some then.
<sbalneav> ah, so for the new polkit, there's no bindings for polkit-1
<alkisg> sbalneav: just file a bug for gksu, and leave it there. In the next LTS you can look again to polkitify it if the tools are there... :)
<moldy> it seems so, at least i cannot find any
<sbalneav> that's what I thought.
<sbalneav> alkisg: The problem is, I want to announce to people to test sabayon
<sbalneav> they can't in it's current state.
<alkisg> Sure... "Due to THIS FREAKING GKSU BUG, you need to run sudo sabayon to test it"
<sbalneav> Assminng people see the post.
<sbalneav> I'll just fix gksu tonight, and get stgraber to upload it.
<alkisg> I mean as part of the announcement... But anyway it's strange why e.g. gksu gedit works, and gksu sabayon doesn't. Where' the difference?
<sbalneav> or why gksu gksu ls doesn't
<sbalneav> there's no rhyme nor reason.
<alkisg> Right
<alkisg> Even `gksu unknown-app` has the same problem...
<alkisg> Anyway... has anyone looked at ebox?
<sbalneav> heh, the solution being proffered in ubuntu-devel is "write your own python wrappers and write raw dbus calls to policy kit"
<sbalneav> "no thanks"
<sbalneav> I just find it really amusing that the genral trend in Linux today is:
<sbalneav> 1) break old thing
<sbalneav> 2) Tell you to use new thing
<sbalneav> 3) New thing isn't completely written/tested/debugged yet
<sbalneav> 4) Wonder why things seem to be falling apart
<sbalneav> 5) ???
<sbalneav> 6) Profit!
<sbalneav> Anyway, kiddies, Go through the package bugs, and see what you want me to fix.  Screem looks like it needs some love.
<sbalneav> kdeedu might need some love too.
<Lns> sbalneav, Linux has gone through massive growing pains, imho partly due to canonical/ubuntu mission to "adopt early, fix bugs later" strategy..which has really gotten us far, but in the meantime of fixing all this stuff people are wondering how to find a stable system
<Lns> hopefully things will really settle down and we'll start solidifying our direction with things overall
<Lns> and hopefully by that we've chosen the right packages to adopt early...
<sbalneav> Lns: Well, you and I have been arguing against the "fix bugs later" thing for some time.
<sbalneav> it definitely seems to be getting worse to me in the last year.
<Lns> it's hard going from a 'we'll release when we're ready' model to a 'every 6 months' thing
<Lns> well coming from you, an experienced programmer, that's something for people to pay attention to...
<sbalneav> phht, I'm nobody special.
<Lns> not sure what the solution is besides, "let's stop adopting new underlying technologies and stick with what's been working"
<Lns> you're a helluva programmer to me! I'm in awe of what you (and everyone else in our little community) has done
<sbalneav> I'm a problem solver.  I go down to brazil for fisl all the time.  I see the underpriv'd kids there, and what they have to work with.
<sbalneav> All I want to do is help these people.
<sbalneav> I want kids to have the tools so that they can learn.
<sbalneav> that's all.
<Lns> =)
<sbalneav> And it's frustrating to me that I have to spend time re-fixing problems that have already been fixed/solved in the past, rather than making something better.
<sbalneav> I don't mind hard work, but nothing p*sses me off more than running in place.
<Lns> yeah...i have the same feeling fixing pwned windows boxen constantly
<Lns> hate to hear even a similar situation in the gnu world
<sbalneav> and that's what I find annoying.  Because every second I spend re-fixing something that used to work is cheating thousands of underpriv'd kids out of my time.
<Lns> well hopefully we've hit a good spot with all this stuff being ripped out from underneath us. I mean, how much can we really keep changing that's going to cause coders to pull their hair out and re-implement stuff?
<Lns> unless the m$ way of "well you were employee of the month so you get to have your say in how xyz works this release" really is the way people want to keep heading in
<Lns> i watched a good interview w/shuttleworth the other day which seemed to kind of calm my frustrations..lemme find the link
<Lns> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9abjUi_H0LY
<Lns> comment posted on that vid: "I'm really hoping the Ubuntu community, beginning with 10.04LTS, will start locking down what new underlying methodologies are used...there have been a lotï»¿ of growing pains with things like PA, polkit and others that many developers have had to re-structure their existing applications. Hopefully the right things have been adopted, so we can build upon a very solid base for many years to come without worrying th
<Lns> at our efforts will be squashed by another carpet-yank underneath us.."
<alkisg> Lns: what client are you using? it nicely cutted the message in half, while pidgin just drops the rest of the message... :)
<alkisg> Is that xchat?
<Lns> yeah
<Lns> the 2nd msg: at our efforts will be squashed by another carpet-yank underneath us.."
<LaserJock> hi all
<Lns> hey LaserJock =)
<alkisg> Hi LaserJock!
<LaserJock> sbalneav, highvoltage: you guys around?
<sbalneav> hey LaserJock!
<LaserJock> so I was reading my email
<LaserJock> and thinking a tiny bit while stuck at the Registry of Motor Vehicles
<LaserJock> it seems to me that the structure of the Edubuntu metapackages is kinda backwards
<LaserJock> where edubuntu-desktop depends on everything else
<LaserJock> it seems like it would be more logical for people to pick the ubuntu-edu-* that they are interested in that in turn deps on some Edubuntu core set
<alkisg> (10:51:38 Î¼Î¼) stgraber: I'm actually waiting for Jordan, I have a small question about the meta packages
<alkisg> (10:51:58 Î¼Î¼) stgraber: the seeds are ok but we need to sync the meta on it and I can't find a bzr branch for it, would like to confirm that we don't have one somewhere
<sbalneav> Seems reasonanle
<LaserJock> maybe there should be an edubuntu-core package or something
<LaserJock> what would be ideal is to have ubuntu-edu-* dep on edubuntu-desktop and then have some sort of edubuntu-full that could be used for getting packages on the DVD
<LaserJock> stgraber: we generally don't put the -meta in bzr because it just gets regenerated at every upload
<LaserJock> the problem with the above scheme is that all the build tools are kinda hardwired to use edubuntu-desktop
<alkisg> LaserJock: I tried the current edubuntu daily build, and the autologon feature was broken, so I had to create a new user from the console to be able to login.
<LaserJock> bummer
<alkisg> I haven't tried the ubuntu daily build though
<LaserJock> that sounds like an Ubuntu problem
<alkisg> Is there anything we do different than Ubuntu? If not, we should be ok..
<LaserJock> we shouldn't do anything different
<LaserJock> the only problem is if the Ubuntu preseed or something get's changed but Edubuntu's doesn't
<alkisg> OK, it should get fixed shortly then....
<LaserJock> but I don't think that would cause the autologin to break
<pygi> hi
<stgraber> LaserJock: ok, I'll just regenerate and upload then
<stgraber> uploaded the new meta packages
<stgraber> dropped lpia at the same time as it's not longer in ubuntu
<sbalneav> hahahaha
<sbalneav> so gksu-polkit asks for the password on the command line, no gui to ask for the password!
<sbalneav> Hey, wait, I know, we could use ldm as a front end, we've got that prompt parsing code... :)
<stgraber> you mean the one we want to get rid off ? :)
<sbalneav> yeah, that one!
#edubuntu 2009-12-30
<Ahmuck> is there an ical version of edubuntu meetings, events, etc?
<Ahmuck> btw, i was looking at webdev this aftenoon.  sunbird has the option of caldev or ical.  looking at wikipedia, ical is a subset or a way to code info from caldev.  how do the tow interact?
<Ahmuck> did edubuntu have a meeting today. looking at the fridge, i don't see a listing
<sbalneav> Ahmuck:
<sbalneav> yes
<sbalneav> Well, I found where it's dying in gksu anyway.
<sbalneav> yeesh, code's crap, they're doing fgets without checking result codes.
<alkisg> That's about gksu? Geez, you should write your own OS while you're fixing things... :)
<sbalneav> well, it's the fact that something's giving an error code that's causing the proble.
<sbalneav> but gksu blindly barrels ahead.
<sbalneav> I think I can fix it by providing a configure option, force it to fork a pty
<sbalneav> building another package now.
<alkisg> Good morning btw. I got a question about bug handling. Suppose we want to fix this simple bug: https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/kdeedu/+bug/315909
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 315909 in kdeedu "Grammar error in Chapter 4 of the KTurtle tutorial." [Low,Confirmed]
<alkisg> That's clearly an upstream bug, but upstream doesn't know about it: https://bugs.kde.org/buglist.cgi?quicksearch=kturtle
<alkisg> So what do we do? We just forward it upstream? We file a bug in kde edu and include a patch?
<sbalneav> Well, canonical's supposed to be forwarding patches upstream, however I've heard a lot of upstream devs complaining there's nothing flowing to them.
<sbalneav> I'd say, lets come up with a patch for the bug, and make sure we forward it upstream manually.
<sbalneav> that way we know they got it.
<alkisg> OK, so for each bug that is clearly an upstream bug, we come up with a patch, and manually file a bug upstream. Got it. :)
<sbalneav> Well, that's what I do, unless the bug's in an ubuntu applied patch.
<sbalneav> YEAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAA
<sbalneav> \o/
<sbalneav> stgraber: you still awake at this ungodly hour?
<sbalneav> So, here's what's wrong with gksu
<sbalneav> Looks like there's been some change in sudo, or something, anyway, sudo's looking for an actual tty now for passwd input
<sbalneav> so
<sbalneav> libgksu needs to be compiled with
<sbalneav> --enable-sudo-forkpty
<stgraber> sbalneav: yep
<stgraber> interesting
<stgraber> sbalneav: did you do a test build of it ?
<stgraber> sbalneav: would be interesting to have it in your PPA, then poke Michael Vogt (mvo) to see if he's anything against that change (as in, potential regression)
<stgraber> and if not, we'll just change it ;)
 * stgraber looks at Debian to see if they made the change, if yes, then it's a simple packaging change merge ;)
<stgraber> hmm, nope, Debian has the same ...
<stgraber> oh, actually it seems like this used to exist as a patch in previous versions
<stgraber> then was made upstream but the flag hasn't been added to the configure
<stgraber> sbalneav: can you file a bug on LP about it and give me the bug number ? I'll see tomorrow if I feel like doing the change or I'll poke someone in the desktop team.
<stgraber> it's a bit late here to break libgksu :)
 * ogra_ yawns
 * alkisg hands a cup of coffee to ogra
<ogra_> :)
 * alkisg wonders why "Try Edubuntu without any change to your computer" in the edubuntu installer is untraslated in *all* languages, while on launchpad it's translated...
<ogra_> talk to cjwatson, i guess he hasnt imported the translations into debian-installer
<alkisg> danke!
<alkisg> Is there any way to install edubuntu, and then switch to all the regular ubuntu themes, layouts, icons etc?
<sbalneav> stgraber: libgksu IS broken NOW compared to it's previous defaults
<sbalneav> https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/libgksu/+bug/501559
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 501559 in libgksu "libgksu fails to start many programs, fails with: assert g_str_has_prefix str != NULL" [High,Confirmed]
 * highvoltage drinks an energy tablet
<highvoltage> good morning everyone
<highvoltage> or good afternoon if you're in my timezone :)
<alkisg> Good afternoon :)
<alkisg> Is there any way to install edubuntu, and then switch to all the regular ubuntu themes, layouts, icons etc?
<toogreen> alkisg, i did it by removing a few packages like edubuntu-artwork, if i remember well
<toogreen> and then for the icon themes and stuff u can simply change it in the preferences/themes
<alkisg> That's a per user change, how do I change the system defaults for that?
<alkisg> I tried update-alternatives --all but that didn't quite do it...
<highvoltage> heh
<toogreen> alkisg, hmm i guess by removing the themes packages, not sure tho :-/ im just a regular joe user hehe
<alkisg> toogreen: heh, sure, thanks for the advice
<highvoltage> alkisg: removing the theme packages should really do the trick
<toogreen> i came here to ask for help too actually
<alkisg> highvoltage: I'll try it again, I had some problems with the logging off/on with the daily live :)
<alkisg> toogreen: sure, shoot!
<toogreen> was just wondering if anyone knows if/when the issue with italc and remote shutdown/rebooting in Karmic will be fixed
<alkisg> toogreen: I sent a patch for it, did you try it?
<toogreen> hmm I'm not sure how to apply patches :-/
<alkisg> (I also have updated packages for it in my ppa)
<alkisg> Are you using Karmic?
<toogreen> won't it be just released in a normal update?
<toogreen> yeah using Karmic
<alkisg> Well we'll have to convince stgraber to include it in his italc patches :)
<toogreen> I have two Linux labs in my school, one is still Jaunty, the other Karmic
<alkisg> ...so the best course there would be to try the patches (=install the debs from my ppa), and confirm that they work
<alkisg> Let me get you the links...
<toogreen> in the Jaunty lab, I fixed the issue by installing powermanagement package (or something like that)
<alkisg> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/italc/+bug/367960
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 367960 in italc ""power down" request fails on 9.04; logout instead" [Medium,Incomplete]
<toogreen> ok will try the PPA solution, thanks
<alkisg> Ah, I see you've commented there
<toogreen> yeah I did
<alkisg> Do post a reply if you verify that my patches work, it'll help in their inclusion in the ubuntu package
<toogreen> I thought the patches were more complicated tho
<toogreen> heheh
<toogreen> ok cool, will try
<toogreen> im at home now tho
<toogreen> only start working again on the 4th of Jan
<toogreen> will try then
<alkisg> What are you using? i386 or amd64?
<toogreen> i was just wondering about the status of this bug
<toogreen> i386
<alkisg> Here are the .debs: https://launchpad.net/~ts.sch.gr/+archive/proposed/+sourcepub/891138/+listing-archive-extra
<alkisg> This way you can download them manually if you don't want to include my ppa in your sources
<toogreen> ok that's cool, thanks a lot!!
<toogreen> It was rather annoying indeed to turn 30 computers off one by one everyday, heheh :-P
<toogreen> I'd say this is a killer feature of italc :-)
<toogreen> for lazy ppl like me
<alkisg> Sure I used that too, a lot
<alkisg> My main problem with iTalc is that on my last lab it crashed after just a few seconds of broadcasting :(
<toogreen> alkisg r u working in a school too?
<alkisg> In 3 other labs it was working fine, though...
<alkisg> Yup, I'm mostly a teacher
<toogreen> i have many issues with iTalc actually... I don't rely on it too much for demonstrating.. I use the projector/screen combo instead
 * alkisg wishes he had a projector :(
<toogreen> it was too unstable in my case
<toogreen> i think the network is too slow or something
<alkisg> Do you have a full gigabit network?
<toogreen> I use iTalc mainly to send messages, take control, or lock the screen
<toogreen> I'm not sure actually, think so but the network setup is pretty messy in our school
<alkisg> Nah, it's not the network that's slow. VNC is the main problem, and iTalc makes it worse.. E.g. freenx works just fine.
<toogreen> i mainly teach, there are other ppl in charge of network etc
<toogreen> ok
<alkisg> Ah. I gotta do it all myself, no other tech persons around :)
<toogreen> where are you at? China here
<toogreen> I'm Canadian tho, but working/teaching in China
<alkisg> Greece...
<toogreen> ok
<toogreen> Just wondering, how widely spread Ubuntu is in schools over there?
<alkisg> It's not widespread yet. We're working on it :)
<toogreen> Yeah same here. In Shanghai as far as I know I'm one of the rare ones pushing Ubuntu/FOSS
<toogreen> Everywhere else is pirate Windows XP
<toogreen> and piracy is so widely common and accepted
<alkisg> Yeah same here...
<toogreen> it's hard to teach ppl and convince them to use FOSS...
<alkisg> But, 2 years ago a pilot program was started by the greek ministry of education. About 20 labs started using Ubuntu/LTSP, bug most of them abandoned it before the year was over.
<highvoltage> toogreen: aparently very few people run legal copies of anything there
<toogreen> highvoltage, true... which is a shame and im trying to educate ppl around me, at least
<highvoltage> toogreen: great
<alkisg> A few of us straggled to make it work like we wanted it, we wrote some manuals and scripts for customization, and now the user base is constantly increasing
<toogreen> highvoltage, one thing that saddens me a great deals is computer dealers all around, they do have systems that are windows-less... Like Dell machines for instances, but they put Windows XP pirate on them even before ppl buy them!!
<toogreen> so when you go shopping for computers in Shanghai, all computers without OS are already running Windows XP
<toogreen> except few exceptions but its mainly that
<toogreen> At the very beginning of EeePCs it was interesting, they left the original Xandros there... But talking to the salesmen they told me everybody was asking to replace it with WinXP
<toogreen> So they started just installing XP on demonstrators as well and completely disregarding Linux
<toogreen> anyways, its pretty sad
<toogreen> Even people who buy Macs in Shanghai, most of them ask the sales ppl if they can wipe out Mac OS and put XP instead!!
<toogreen> Not sure why Chinese ppl like XP so much.. heheh
<alkisg> toogreen: here's a good link against piracy: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ponosov%27s_case
<alkisg> That teacher was convicted because he bought PCs with pirated windows on them
<alkisg> Since then he became a FLOSS advocate, and now Russia moved on to using open source...
<toogreen> alkisg, thanks for the link, I sure will show this to some people I know!!!
<toogreen> printing it out now...
<sbalneav> alkisg: Why Sabayon would help you with your theming woes!
<sbalneav> Morning all
<sbalneav> reading scrollback
<alkisg> sbalneav: really? hmmm I hear that it has some severe gksu-related bugs, though... :P :D
<sbalneav> <rage on>
<sbalneav> WHRAAAAAAAAAA HULK SMASH
<sbalneav> </rage off>
<highvoltage> heh nice one alkisg
<sbalneav> Fixed.  Now I just have to convince someone with upload rights that fixing is isn't "breaking it this late in the cycle"
<alkisg> Late?! Only an alpha was out...
<sbalneav> even tho' it's demonstrably broken now, and by fixing it, I restore previous functionality.
<sbalneav> See stgraber's comment above :)
<alkisg> sbalneav: if you're talking about "it's a bit late here to break libgksu :)", I think stgraber meant that it was late in the day, i.e. midnight...
<sbalneav> Ah, I assumed that meant "in the development cycle" :)
<sbalneav> Anywho, hopefully I can convince someone (shouldn't necessarily be stgraber, btw.) that this is important.
<highvoltage> sbalneav: shouldn't take much
<sbalneav> Heh, only had one bite so far, and he wanted me to justify why upstream had made the change in the first place. :)
 * sbalneav put on his Johnny Carson "Carnac the Magnificent" heagear, holds libgksu2-0 source to forhead
<sbalneav> Wait, how many people here get that?
<highvoltage> sbalneav: I get this for cnetworkmanager on my host: http://paste.ubuntu.com/349113/
<highvoltage> sbalneav: know what could be causing that?
<highvoltage> sbalneav: it sounds like something north-americanish :)
<sbalneav> That from my packages?
<highvoltage> yep
<sbalneav> one sec
<sbalneav> How'd you get the error?
<sbalneav> try a cnetworkmanager -d
<highvoltage> still says the same
<sbalneav> You install it on a karmic box?
<sbalneav> I just installed it here on my karmic box, works fine.
<highvoltage> sbalneav: yep
<highvoltage> sbalneav: I'll look at it again a bit later and let you know if I get it running
<sbalneav> well, the error indicates that something's not right with dbus
<sbalneav> ls -l /etc/dbus-1/system.d/cnetworkmanager.conf
<sbalneav> wait:
<sbalneav> dbus.exceptions.DBusException: org.freedesktop.DBus.Error.ServiceUnknown: The name org.freedesktop.NetworkManager was not provided by any .service files
<|user|> hello
<sbalneav> Did you uninstall networkmanager?
<sbalneav> |user|: hello
<|user|> i have edubuntu on my asus eee900ha
<|user|> my wireles wont work
<highvoltage> sbalneav: nope, should I?
<highvoltage> sbalneav: well, I installed networkmanager just shortly before
<highvoltage> sbalneav: ah, after a reboot it magically works
<sbalneav> highvoltage: well, restarting the system might help
<sbalneav> I suspect network manager isn't properly runnig yet
<sbalneav> |user|: What kind of wireless is in that machine?  I'm not familiar with that hardware
<highvoltage> |user|: edubuntu 9.10?
<|user|> yes
<|user|> i dont know why
<|user|> i installed kde
<|user|> too
<highvoltage> "anomalies" nice.
<sbalneav> highvoltage: The error basically means that cnetworkmanager tried to talk to NetworkMangler, but there wasn't one registered with dbus.
<sbalneav> How the heck did you NOT have networkmanager installed on Ubuntu? it's like freaking default for everything now.
<highvoltage> sbalneav: this machine doesn't have an X server installed
<highvoltage> sbalneav: it's a small server machine that I want to put on wi-fi
<sbalneav> Well, you'll need networkmanager running properly in order to get cnetworkmanager to work.
<sbalneav> alkisg: And here we have the primary problem with Ubuntu.
<sbalneav> "What you want to do isn't right, but I don't have time to research how to fix the problem, or give you any suggestions on how to fix it, so things should just stay broken"
<alkisg> Right, I hate this kind of talk :(
<sbalneav> I mean, I'd be more than happy to start identifying SDL applications, and filing bugs to make them dep on -pulseaudio
<sbalneav> And now, he's ignoring us.
<alkisg> sbalneav: I tried that for 2-3 apps, no sugar
<alkisg> ...and I don't think it's a good solution either
<alkisg> Maybe a better solution would be on a higher level. E.g. Ubuntu wants pulse? Maybe ubuntu-desktop should depend on libsdl-pulse, and kubuntu on libsdl-alsa...
<sbalneav> Maybe not, but it's better than "doing nothing"
<sbalneav> That's an idea
<sbalneav> Why not suggest that.
<alkisg> It needs searching to support this idea... maybe ubuntu-desktop is not the proper package, but some other one, lower on the hierarchy
<alkisg> Bah let's mention it, nothing to lose
<sbalneav> I don't understand why it's not a dep for pulse, personally
<sbalneav> Really, what you need is conditional deps :)
<alkisg> Right, and a better conffile system ;)
<sbalneav> Could you write that for us?
<sbalneav> I like your dummy packages idea.
<sbalneav> that wouldn't be that hard.
<alkisg> Sure I could write that. That's the easy part.
<alkisg> The question is, who'd want that? :D
<alkisg> I don't think anyone's listening... ;)
<highvoltage> dummy packages?
<alkisg> highvoltage: packaging problem. libsdl1.2debian depends on libsdl1.2debian-pulseaudio |  libsdl1.2debian-all | libsdl1.2debian-alsa | libsdl1.2debian-esd | libsdl1.2debian-oss | libsdl1.2debian-nas
<alkisg> Ah sorry
<alkisg> alsa in front
<alkisg> So it breaks the sound (or even worse) in all packages that use SDL on Ubuntu
<alkisg> e.g. one of the many, many bug reports about this: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/libsdl1.2/+bug/203158
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 203158 in libsdl1.2 "libsdl1.2debian-pulseaudio must be installed as default by libsdl1.2debian" [Medium,Triaged]
<alkisg> So we're trying to propose a good way for libsdl to depend on pulse on ubuntu, but on alsa on kubuntu (as kubuntu doesn't use pulse by default)
<sbalneav> I kind of like how we're willing to accept broken behaviour in the primary product, to make sure things work perfectly in the secondary product.
<sbalneav> And here's where it will stall.
 * alkisg guesses either ScottK uses Kubuntu, or he doesn't use any SDL based apps at all :D
<sbalneav> If it wasn't for having good guys like ogra and stgraber around to champion issue for us, I'd have given up on ubuntu long ago
 * sbalneav hugs ogra, stgraber
<sbalneav> Well, yeah, none of the main ubuntu apps are sdl I think
<sbalneav> They all universe packages?
<alkisg> !info tuxpaint
<ubottu> tuxpaint (source: tuxpaint): A paint program for young children. In component main, is optional. Version 1:0.9.20-2ubuntu1 (karmic), package size 164 kB, installed size 396 kB
<alkisg> Nope
<sbalneav> perfect.
<sbalneav> LOL
<alkisg> Maybe we should start a riot outside of Mark's office :P
<sbalneav> I already managed to affect some stuff
<alkisg> !info gstreamer0.10-sdl
<ubottu> gstreamer0.10-sdl (source: gst-plugins-bad0.10): GStreamer plugin for SDL output. In component universe, is optional. Version 0.10.14-4ubuntu1 (karmic), package size 43 kB, installed size 104 kB
<sbalneav> I complained to Jorge Castro about bug handling.
<sbalneav> He's apparently got a "team" that's going to be scouring lunchpad for bugs filed that actally have patches attached
<alkisg> Yey!
<sbalneav> apparently, they've got in excess of 1600 bugs that have patches attached, that no-ones looking at.
<alkisg> That'd solve *a lot* of problems...
<sbalneav> I got that ball rolling when I whined and stamped my feet about the cups bug for hardy
<sbalneav> which, BTW, still hasn't been fixed :)
 * alkisg shrugs :(
<alkisg> !info libsdl1.2debian
<ubottu> libsdl1.2debian (source: libsdl1.2): Simple DirectMedia Layer. In component main, is optional. Version 1.2.13-4ubuntu4 (karmic), package size 21 kB, installed size 60 kB
<sbalneav> I know it sounds like I've been a whiny little primadonna the last few weeks, but goldarnit, we're not going to get these issues fixed unless we make some noise about them.
<alkisg> ...and thus, the libsdl bug is again shoved...
<sbalneav> I'd cut-n-paste the convo into the bug
<sbalneav> I know, it's frustrating isn't it?  Bottom line is, base ubuntu doesn't rely on any sdl apps, so....
<alkisg> But it does. libsdl is installed by default in the live cd.
<sbalneav> Right, but not the right one.
<alkisg> Yes, so if we put the correct one in the dependencies of ubuntu-desktop, it'll be fixed.
<sbalneav> but none of the default ubuntu apps that I know of are sdl
<alkisg> Where's the problem in that?
<sbalneav> You're preaching to the choir Brother Alkis!  :)
 * alkisg will try to see *how* libsdl gets in the live cd...
<sbalneav> Amen, Glory Halleluia!
<sbalneav> I don't see a problem with it AT ALL.
<sbalneav> ah, right, we're dropping gimp too.
<sbalneav> Race to the bottom.
<alkisg> I think we need to fix all those broken dependencies in edubuntu, and just ignore everything ubuntu does :P :D
<sbalneav> I'm all for that, although I don't no how we'd do it.
<sbalneav> We'd need our own complete apt archive.
<alkisg> Nope. We'd just make edubuntu-desktop depend on libsdl-pulse ;)
<alkisg> (we ship gimp anyways :D)
<sbalneav> Ah, well, yeah, WE can do that for edubuntu-desktop, for sure.
<alkisg> Nailed it. :D
<alkisg> A conflicts: libsdl-alsa on the pulseaudio package should be a nice fix. Testing...
<sbalneav> DID SOMETHING GET COMMITTED?!?!!
 * sbalneav 's jaw drops in amazement
<sbalneav> \o/ for alkisg
<alkisg> Hey wait who said anything about commits?
<alkisg> I just had an idea which seems acceptable to them, and I'll test it, and then they'll think about commiting it... :D
<sbalneav> ah, jumped the gun :)
 * alkisg uploaded a fixed pulseaudio package to his ppa, and downloaded the lucid daily cd. Hopefully now libsdl-pulse will be installed when I install tuxpaint.. fingers crossed..
<sbalneav> here's hoping
 * sbalneav waits with bated breath.
<sbalneav> Man, I should quit eating fish for lunch.
<Lns> nice guys =) That's been a sore for some time (libsdl-alsa screwing w/tux4kids apps)
<sbalneav> All your thanks goes to alkisg, he's driving that particular bus.
<sbalneav> And quite expertly too.
 * alkisg loves launchpad... "starts in 20 minutes... 10... 5... 3.. 2.. 1.. 5... 10... 20..." :(
<Ahmuck> alkisg: u fixed pulseaudio?
<alkisg> Ahmuck: nope, not at all
<alkisg> !info  libsdl1.2debian-alsa
<ubottu> Error: I tried to send you an empty message.
<alkisg> !info libsdl1.2debian-alsa
<ubottu> libsdl1.2debian-alsa (source: libsdl1.2): Simple DirectMedia Layer (with X11 and ALSA options). In component main, is extra. Version 1.2.13-4ubuntu4 (karmic), package size 212 kB, installed size 524 kB
<alkisg> !info libsdl1.2debian-pulseaudio
<ubottu> libsdl1.2debian-pulseaudio (source: libsdl1.2): Simple DirectMedia Layer (with X11 and PulseAudio options). In component universe, is extra. Version 1.2.13-4ubuntu4 (karmic), package size 211 kB, installed size 524 kB
#edubuntu 2009-12-31
<stgraber> sbalneav: just got to read the backlog, had a full day of debugging Cisco issues ... :) By late, I meant it was 2am ;)
<stgraber> sbalneav: and usually uploading libgksu is not the kind of stuff I do at 2am (well, except at UDS :)). It's perfectly fine to upload the fix in Lucid and the sooner the better
<sbalneav> stgraber: Get your cisco stuff going?
<sbalneav> cisco gear's sometimes.... challenging
<stgraber> yeah, managed to find a workaround late in the afternoon ...
<stgraber> I was trying to do something very simple :)
<stgraber> Get all outgoing traffic on tcp/80 and send it to the squid proxy on tcp/3128 except the traffic going from that same proxy
<stgraber> looks like Cisco has WCCP2 for that but it didn't work as the two Cisco routers at the customer were doing NATing everywhere and so I could get the link properly established
<stgraber> finally had to do some route-map in their second router to get something that's supposed to work :)
<stgraber> took me 4 hours or so for something I do in 30s with iptables ... (that's one iptable rule to do that :))
<sbalneav> yeah, I've had to deal with cisco's on and off my whole carreer.
<sbalneav> IOS can really be a pain sometimes.
<stgraber> usually I find my way around quite easily, especially with switches but I really hate their router/firewall mess
<sbalneav> Morning all
<alkisg> Morning Scotty
<sbalneav> How's it going, alkisg?
<sbalneav> Getting close to the new year there!
<sbalneav> Bug #485709
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 485709 in mountall "/etc/init/mountall.conf fails when root is mounted using NFS instead of NBD" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/485709
<alkisg> Fine... /me is on the phone with his little daughter...
<sbalneav> Haven't left work yet?
<alkisg> Nah the holidays here are 2 weeks for teachers/students. She's on my parents and she wanted me to bring her some things...
<sbalneav> Ah!
<sbalneav> Cool
<sbalneav> So far I've only had 2 responses to my bug day announcement
<sbalneav> Better than the last bug day I hosted
<sbalneav> :)
<sbalneav> By 2
<alkisg> Well if you don't get enough bugs, I can send you some more to look into :D
<sbalneav> Well, certainly, that's the POINT.
<sbalneav> We just set aside a day to see if we can squash a few :)
<sbalneav> bug #133520
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 133520 in gnome-mount "Patch to auto-mount LUKS key-file encrypted volumes" [Undecided,Invalid] https://launchpad.net/bugs/133520
<alkisg> I'll be around that day to help as much as I can...
<alkisg> Damn unfortunately the "conflicts" idea with pulse didn't work, so it's up to crimsun's good will now to change the seeds...
<Ahmuck> http://www.helpmysql.org/
<Lns> http://blog.logicalnetworking.net/index.php/lnsblogs/my-viewpoint-of-the-ltsp-project-and-cor?blog=5 as long as we're throwing out URLs ;)
<sbalneav> Evening all
<alkisg> Happy new year to all from Greece :)
<sbalneav> And over here, in chinese!
<sbalneav> Sun In Phi Loc
#edubuntu 2010-01-01
<Ahmuck-Jr> anybody using anytype of caldav server in edubuntu?
<Ahmuck-Jr> or pre-configured server?
<Ahmuck-Jr> http://www.bedework.org/bedework/
<LaserJock> bah
<LaserJock> anybody seen Lns?
<stgraber> he was there 3 hours ago
<LaserJock> well, I got users-admin to do sorting
<LaserJock> which he reported as lacking in bug #259163
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 259163 in gnome-system-tools "users-admin does not sort when Name/Login/Homedir field clicked" [Wishlist,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/259163
<stgraber> LaserJock: btw, looking at the current Edubuntu seeds, ship-addon isn't used by the DVD and so shouldn't exist anymore ?
<LaserJock> hmm
<LaserJock> let me check
<LaserJock> because it seems like maybe there was still a purpose for it
<LaserJock> there's no obvious dependency (that's good)
<LaserJock> stgraber: you could try removing it and seeing if everything blows up :-)
<stgraber> as I understand it, everything that's on the DVD in .deb form is in the dvd seed and everything else is in the dvd-live seed
<LaserJock> well, kinda yeah
<stgraber> though that means edubuntu-server (Edubuntu content server) isn't on the current DVD which I didn't know of ;)
<LaserJock> but it's quite a bit more complicated
<LaserJock> we took edubuntu-server off because all it was doing was installing moodle and we had issues with it
<stgraber> ok
<LaserJock> the livecd environment build scripts have some hard-coded bits
<LaserJock> but I think that's just relative to desktop-gnome and maybe dvd-live
<LaserJock> or maybe it's live
<LaserJock> the problem is also that we inherit Ubuntu's seeds
<LaserJock> but looking at the ship-addon CD, I don't think anything should be using it
<stgraber> I'm currently looking at including what we need for the Netbook remix, it should simply be a matter of changing STRUCTURE so the dvd seed (not dvd-live) inherits from the ubuntu-netbook-remix seed as well
<stgraber> ok, I'll drop the addon at the same time and see if I get some scary mails ;)
<stgraber> stgraber@castiana:~/seed/ubuntu.lucid$ grep -r netbook *
<stgraber> stgraber@castiana:~/seed/ubuntu.lucid$
<stgraber> that's disturbing ;)
<LaserJock> it's probably in a separate branch
<LaserJock> I do wonder a little how having so very many installation options is going to work
<stgraber> hmm, yes it's, that's weird they made a separate branch even after making it an official derivative (as in, no longer a remix)
<stgraber> LaserJock: well, the goal is to drop the text install (Workstation), so it should actually reduce the number of install option
<stgraber> (that's if we can move LTSP to the Live environment in time)
<LaserJock> well, but then how do you install the netbook version?
<stgraber> the idea is to have the packages on the DVD and an option in ubiquity to install them
<LaserJock> additionally, even if you move it all into the live installer there are quite some options
<LaserJock> something to consider is the way in which Ubiquity installs things
<LaserJock> I'm fairly sure it copies over the image and then removes stuff that shouldn't be there
<stgraber> yeah, we'll need some tweaking there as ubiquity usually only removes packages
<LaserJock> which means the more you put in the installer the longer the install process takes
<stgraber> and we don't want these installed in the DVD image (at least not for LTSP and not for the netbook remix gconf schema)
<LaserJock> for instance, a person who just wants plain old Edubuntu without LTSP, etc. might take twice as long to install as they need to
<LaserJock> so you want it outside the Live chroot?
<stgraber> yep
<stgraber> if we can, then we'll make ubiquity install them from the DVD and if we can't they'll need to install them after the install by using the DVD as a repo
<LaserJock> will Ubiquity handle that OK?
<stgraber> I sent an e-mail to Collin about that, I'm waiting for his reply at the moment
<LaserJock> I see
<LaserJock> if it works that makes a lot of sense
<LaserJock> as it is already people may have to spend a lot of time removing packages at installation
<LaserJock> because of all the edu apps
<stgraber> right
<LaserJock> will the installer have options for the app bundles?
<stgraber> initial use for that kind of option in the installer would be for LTSP and for the Netbook edition, if it works correctly, then I guess we'll use it for quite a few other things (including choose the bundles)
<stgraber> though then, it'd mean we won't have the bundles installed in the live environment which would be bad for testing/demo of edubuntu
<LaserJock> hmm
<stgraber> it's less of a problem for LTSP and the netbook interface as these two usually cause some troubles when installed in a live environment (for the first, that'd mean having a dhcp/tftp/ssh/nbd server running and for the second, that'd change the UI quite a bit)
<LaserJock> I guess that is a separate implementation detail
<LaserJock> but it would be good if Ubiquity could be used to change what packages get removed
<stgraber> for the bundles, I guess the easiest would be to install them in all cases and remove them
<stgraber> right
<LaserJock> so picking an app bundle or two would remove the remainder
<LaserJock> yeah
<Ahmuck-Jr> Happy New Year!
<alkisg> Happy New Year
<Dafna> http://www.edubuntu.org/Download has not been updated to refer to version 9.10
 * HedgeMage peeks in
<HedgeMage> Anyone awake?
<HedgeMage> I need a second opinion on something.
<alkisg> !ask
<ubottu> Please don't ask to ask a question, simply ask the question (all on ONE line and in the channel, so that others can read and follow it easily). If anyone knows the answer they will most likely reply. :-)
<alkisg> HedgeMage: ^^
<HedgeMage> Yeah, yeah, yeah... I want to pm the link to someone because I'm not sure I like it enough to be logged for posterity :P
 * HedgeMage is a very self-conscious designer, especially since she's really a developer trying to do a bad imitation of design :P
<HedgeMage> alkisg: So, up for looking at a VERY rough draft of what I think I'll suggest for a new edubuntu.org design?
 * HedgeMage needs feedback
<alkisg> HedgeMage: sure!
<alkisg> But also send PMs at least to sbalneav and highvolt1ge :)
<HedgeMage> alkisg: I already sent it to highvoltage via jabber.
<alkisg> ...and stgraber
<HedgeMage> I haven't seen any sign that sbalneav is online, so I'll send him a link when I see him.  I already jabbered stgraber.
<alkisg> Wow, very refreshing
<alkisg> I love it! Maybe the main text could be a tag bigger?
<HedgeMage> Yeah, it needs lots more work...I'm just trying to see if folks like the general concept before I put tons of polishing time in.
<HedgeMage> That way, if it needs a major change, I can do it and spend that polishing time on an idea we'll actually use
<alkisg> And I think it needs some other icon to "break" the monotony, but sure, I think it's great!
<HedgeMage> Thanks :D
<alkisg> It's modern and refreshing but still suitable for also adults
 * HedgeMage beams
<alkisg> HedgeMage: can that be done as a drupal theme, or whatever it is that we're using for our webpage?
<HedgeMage> Yes, I do drupal development for a living, that's why I volunteered when highvolt1ge started talking about upgrading the site.
<alkisg> Ah right I remember now, sorry :)
<alkisg> (it shows that I haven't put any work in our webpage etc :D)
<HedgeMage> lol np
<Ahmuck-Jr> any chance of having a bug day each week?
<Ahmuck-Jr> or bi-weekly?
<alkisg> Heh... if we can fund sbalneav's days off work, sure :P :D
<HedgeMage> hehe
<HedgeMage> Ahmuck-Jr: any opinion on: http://imagebin.ca/view/GsQpdMqn.html  -- it's very very rough, but I guess I'm brave enough to show it around in here now.
<Ahmuck-Jr> for edubuntu new website?
<HedgeMage> Yes.  It's just a first draft of my idea, nothing official.
<HedgeMage> Ahmuck-Jr: thoughts?
<Ahmuck-Jr> i like it
<HedgeMage> :D
<HedgeMage> Hopefully, highvolt1ge, stgraber, and sbalneav will pop in today so I can get their opinions.
<HedgeMage> The mockup still needs lots of work, but I don't want to put in too much until I get any major changes they might have (or find out I should scrap it and start again)
<stgraber> HedgeMage: pong
<HedgeMage> stgraber: I have a very rough first draft of an idea for edubuntu.org; I put it up at "We all declare for liberty; but in using the same word we do not all mean the same thing. With some the word liberty may mean for each man to do as he pleases with himself, and the product of his labor; while with others, the same word may mean for some men to do as they please with other men, and the product of other men's labor. Here are two, not only
<HedgeMage> crud
<HedgeMage> sorry, mispaste
<HedgeMage> stgraber: I have a very rough first draft of an idea for edubuntu.org; I put it up at "We all declare for liberty; but in using the same word we do not all mean the same thing. With some the word liberty may mean for each man to do as he pleases with himself, and the product of his labor; while with others, the same word may mean for some men to do as they please with other men, and the product of other men's labor. Here are two, not only
<HedgeMage> grrr
<HedgeMage> http://imagebin.ca/view/GsQpdMqn.html  <-- that is the URL
<HedgeMage> stgraber: ^^^  (Please ignore the broken pastes, this is the URL I wanted you to see)
<stgraber> general layout looks good, I'm just a bit worried of how it'd appear on a netbook screen (1024x600) with these two blocks at the top
<stgraber> though I guess it's a usuall issue with netbook screens so something the netbook users are quite used to ;)
<HedgeMage> stgraber: The two blocks on the top would only appear on the front page, and only to anonymous (not logged in) users, at least according to my current concept :)
<stgraber> great
<stgraber> that'd be the equivalent to our current release announcement blocks I guess ?
<HedgeMage> My thought was to use the square for that, and use the larger rectangle to tell new visitors what edubuntu is and point them to overview pages for parents, teachers, etc.
<stgraber> yep, sounds good
<HedgeMage> brb, laundry
<stgraber> something else to be careful about I guess is the vast range of currently used screen resolutions as we have users on screen ranging from 10" 1024x600 (netbooks) to the kind of screens I have here and at the office (24" at 1920x1080). That was an issue with the previous design (at there was a max-width set in px making most of the screen unused)
<HedgeMage> stgraber: The header will not expand (to do so would require a use of SVG that would make the page crash for IE users), it will just be centered.  The rest will be fluid (grow to fit the browser area, with a small margin to make it look nice)
<HedgeMage> stgraber: At least, that's the plan.  I'm still at the seeking info phase, and I haven't even gotten to show this to highvolt1ge yet, as he's afk.
<HedgeMage> s/info/opinions/
<HedgeMage> stgraber: if highvolt1ge and sbalneav are as happy with the general concept as you, alkisg, Ahmuck-Jr, and pygi seem to be, I'll flesh it out quite a bit more and pass it around again.
<stgraber> cool
<stgraber> having the logo centered is fine as long as the rest of the page expand correctly, what I hate is having content at the middle of the screen that must be split so it fits and have 50% of the screen completely empty because of fixed width
<HedgeMage> highvolt1ge mentioned wanting to get this out in the next month or so, and I'm moving soon (a very time-consuming operation), so I'm hoping to get this hashed out sooner rather than later.
<HedgeMage> stgraber: Yes, fixed-with themes are a pet peeve of mine as well.
<HedgeMage> The thing that bugs me is that people don't make them because they look better or are easier to use, they make them because they are easier to code.
<stgraber> yeah, I've been converting the Ubuntu theme from fixed width to variable width (the theme currently on brainstorm.u.c) and it's a pain to make something that works correctly on all browsers (we had to support IE6 at the time ...)
 * HedgeMage nods
<stgraber> the issue is usually to get a CSS that works just as well on IE and on FF, I guess now that IE6 is supposed to be gone (even Microsoft tries to get rid of it), it should make things slightly easier
<alkisg> IE6 gone? There are a lot of w2k clients out there... :(
<HedgeMage> alkisg: they can get an update to 7 from MS for free.
<alkisg> HedgeMage: nope
<alkisg> IE7 is only for >= XP
<HedgeMage> alkisg: oh?  Why not?
<HedgeMage> ahh
 * HedgeMage doesn't really follow the windoze world
 * alkisg had to support windows apps + sites for a long, long time. :(
<alkisg> My site is even tested in IE4 :(
<HedgeMage> alkisg: Well, they'll have to live with it -- we can make things degrade as gracefully as possible, but if we halt progress because some users can't be bothered tomove on, we all lose.
<HedgeMage> alkisg: eww
<alkisg> Heh
<alkisg> Yeah sure I was just mentioning it, I didn't mean that it was something important :D
<stgraber> I used to care for >= IE6, now I changed that to be >= IE7, it cuts the amount of hack required for specific browsers by half at least ;)
<HedgeMage> Yep
<stgraber> and for these still using IE6, they aren't very likely to go to my sites anyway or they'll need to install FF ;)
<HedgeMage> hrm...I'd really like to work on this some more since I have some time today, but it bothers me that I haven't gotten to run it past highvolt1ge and sbalneav yet.
<stgraber> maybe you'll see sbalneav online a bit later today but it's a lot less likely for highvolt1ge (it's 1am in South Africa)
 * HedgeMage nods
#edubuntu 2010-01-02
<Ahmuck-Jr> HedgeMage: css?  couldn't the top blocks be "streached" with % of width or em ?
<HedgeMage> Ahmuck-Jr: I'm not talking about those blocks...I'm talking about the logo and the background graphics.
<HedgeMage> Ahmuck-Jr: The only way to make them scale and not be ugly is to use SVG, which crashes IE
<Ahmuck-Jr> shouldn't you still be supporting ie6 ?
<alkisg> HedgeMage: Couldn't the background one be a background image with repeatx/y and the edubuntu logo a foreground image?
<Ahmuck-Jr> hrm, it's not about moving on, as i just shipped 4 computers with windows 2000 and ie6
<HedgeMage> Define supporting.  I'm not going to design for ie6 because it is so limited, but I'll make sure things degrade reasonably.
<Ahmuck-Jr> highvolt1ge: is in africa?
<stgraber> Ahmuck-Jr: Cape Town (South Africa)
<HedgeMage> IOW, I'm not going to not do something just because it won't work in IE6, but I'll make sure the site is still usable for IE6 (it just may not be as pretty, or have as many ui goodies)
<HedgeMage> alkisg: With very few exceptions, tiled backgrounds look awful.  I am making enough background graphic that larger displays will have something nice to see, but only up to a point of course (we don't want to make the graphic too big)
<Ahmuck-Jr> i have a software question.  my grand father is 98 and still with a good mind.  watching and listening to other residents in the rest home, i can see that many are just bored.  i've been thinking about some msi wind all in ones with some "brain games"
<Ahmuck-Jr> there are however challenges with tech in this area
<Ahmuck-Jr> i think this could be overcome with touch screens.  large icons, and software activities that is interactive to touch.  tjhere is also challenges in sight and sound
<Ahmuck-Jr> dexterity
<Ahmuck-Jr> i've been looking at some software in the "brain game" area that might work
<Ahmuck-Jr> but it seems there is a limited amount.  while education is not noramlly viewed from the elder side, there is still a need.  moreover, schools do have students who would also have these limitations.  could we get a page where we can start categorizing gpl free and non-free software for edubuntu?
<HedgeMage> I don't see why not
<HedgeMage> Ahmuck-Jr: you might also want to check out #frogandowl -- one of the things that project will be doing after the ramp-up will be to offer a catalogue of apps related to education, what they run on, what they are good for, with links to related lesson or program plans, etc.
<HedgeMage> Ahmuck-Jr: frog and owl is a distro-neutral open source and open content in education project.
<Ahmuck-Jr> one of the issues with elderly is "shaking", hence would need larger icons
<Ahmuck-Jr> eyesight
 * HedgeMage nods
<HedgeMage> I'll be in and out, I'm cooking dinner, but still following the convo
<Ahmuck-Jr> what's cooking?  /me had my yearly ration of black eyed peas today for new years ...
<HedgeMage> Italian beef sandwiches
<HedgeMage> Hi, ogra
 * HedgeMage wonders if anyone is awake in here
<HedgeMage> http://imagebin.ca/view/KgCXBt.html  <-- a little tweaking if anyone is interested
<Ahmuck-Jr> .
 * HedgeMage peeks in
<dibblego> why edubuntu over ubuntu for a child's machine?
<alkisg> For the programs included
<Ahmuck> dibblego: it's got children learning programs on it
<dibblego> can't I just install those in ubuntu?
<alkisg> Sure, you can also install edubuntu-desktop if you like... it's just packages
<dibblego> ok thanks
#edubuntu 2010-01-03
<Ahmuck-Jr> the emperor has no clothes
<sbalneav> Evening all
<HedgeMage> hi, sbalneav
<sbalneav> Heya HedgeMage!!!!
<HedgeMage> Do you have a minute to look at something for me?  I'm working on ideas for the edubuntu.org redesign (though these are just rough thoughts -- I haven't even caught up with highvoltage to show him yet, I'm just showing them around to get input)
<sbalneav> How was Christmas and Newyears?
<sbalneav> Sure!
<sbalneav> Lay it on me.
<HedgeMage> The latest front page mockup is at http://imagebin.ca/view/KgCXBt.html
<sbalneav> I'd replace "education obsessed-wing" with "Education activist cell" :)
<sbalneav> Looks awesome
<sbalneav> Love the Lorum Ipsums :)
<sbalneav> Is our site drupal?
<sbalneav> You do all that graphics stuff yourself?!
<HedgeMage> Yes, our site is Drupal, though it needs updating badly... highvoltage and I talked about it at length after the meeting and have some plans.
<HedgeMage> And yes, I did those graphics myself, other than the logo which I grabbed from somewhere a while ago.
<sbalneav> I wish I could do graphics stuff.
<HedgeMage> I'm not great at it -- at work I keep a pro designer on staff -- but this should be workable
<HedgeMage> Here's a rough of the forum page: http://imagebin.ca/view/5n49WaF.html  (still unfinished, but a general idea, also shows how the header looks on a wider display)
<sbalneav> So, the work you do, you own a business with a staff? Yowie Zowie! Awesome.
<sbalneav> Nice!
<HedgeMage> highvoltage and I talked about, instead of starting standalone webforums, creating forums linked to the existing mailing lists.
<sbalneav> Ah!  That would be great.
<HedgeMage> That way, we have instant traffic, and lower the barrier to entry for the most-used discussion fora.
<sbalneav> I really hate the "Check the mailing list!  No Check the forums" dichotomy.
<sbalneav> Ulitmately, what we really need is webforum software where the "database backend" is the mailing list :)
<HedgeMage> That's exactly what we're building
<sbalneav> Supah!
<HedgeMage> The forum is just another way of accessing the ML
<sbalneav> If you need some python/C help, lemme know.
<HedgeMage> Thanks, but this is 100% PHP because that is what Drupal is in.
<sbalneav> Everybody oooh's and ahhh's over people who can program. "Ooooh, you must be sooo smart to be able to program".  But programming's just crank-turning to a large degree.  Having a good eye for layout, being able to draw and manipulate graphics, know ing what fonts to use where, that an art.  Art takes *talent*.
<HedgeMage> Programming takes a clarity of thought that most people don't have, though.
<HedgeMage> I'm more coder than designer, though my artist has taught me some basics :)
<sbalneav> I think a forum/ml integration could pretty much be a FS project on it's own.
<sbalneav> You're better than I
<HedgeMage> FS?
<sbalneav> Free Software
<HedgeMage> heh, thanks
<HedgeMage> ahh
<HedgeMage> The forum/ml gateway is already available as a Drupal module...it just requires configuration.
<sbalneav> That'd be a winner if you got it going.  LOTS of projects would love that.
<HedgeMage> I've used it on many sites before.
<sbalneav> Really?!  How come we don't use it more?!
<sbalneav> Wow
<HedgeMage> Because most people working on these, while well-meaning, are doing it as a first Drupal experience.  I do it for a living, so I already know where all the cool toys are ;)
<sbalneav> Supah!
<sbalneav> Excited about the "re-vitalization" of Edubuntu?
<HedgeMage> Yep. :)
<sbalneav> Cool, when't the next meeting for F&O?
<sbalneav> When's
<HedgeMage> Can I look it up and jabber or email you?  I don't know off the top of my head but I think I have it somewhere.
<HedgeMage> My usual strategy is waiting for dorenwen to remind me ;)
<sbalneav> Sure, you know where to find me on jabber
<HedgeMage> cool
<HedgeMage> sbalneav: I'm starting to think about writing up the edubuntu redesign/upgrades in a case study for drupal.org -- I think it would both help other open source projects that aren't quite sure what to do with their sites, and give edubuntu some visibility -- what do you think?
<sbalneav> Looks like I've actually managed to get some interest going for bug day.
<HedgeMage> cool :)
<sbalneav> Sounds like a great idea.
<sbalneav> Are you, or have you ever considered, contributing upstream to Drupal?
<HedgeMage> I have been for years :)
<HedgeMage> I'm not one of the biggest contributers, but I'm active in the issue queues whether testing or submitting patches or whatnot.
<sbalneav> Awesome.
<sbalneav> It's great when you use a tool for your work, being upstream for the tool.
<HedgeMage> Definitely.
<sbalneav> It's like me with LTSP.  I use LTSP at work, and I'm a developer.
 * HedgeMage nods
<HedgeMage> The people who write the stuff invariably know it best.
<sbalneav> It's like the old saying: if you know how to cook, you always get to eat what you want.
<HedgeMage> :D
<sbalneav> Being involved upstream guarentees you'll always get your itches scratched.
<HedgeMage> Yes, and always know what's coming so you can be on the forefront.
<sbalneav> Right, web consulting's a cutthoat business, lots of competition.  Being one step ahead = $$
<HedgeMage> :)
<sbalneav> Yeah, I think your designs would be awesome, and I'm REALLY liking the ML/WebForum gateway.
<HedgeMage> Thanks!
<HedgeMage> I'm going to treat myself to a long, hot shower, warm jammies, and my new slippers.  Be back in an hour, give or take.
<HedgeMage> :)
<sbalneav> kk
<sbalneav> I'll be here
 * HedgeMage returns, wearing awesome slippers
<HedgeMage> (and pajamas...not JUST slippers)
<HedgeMage> hi, alkisg
<alkisg> Hi HedgeMage, how are you?
<HedgeMage> alkisg: Not bad at all, you?
<alkisg> Fine :)
<ubunturookie> hi
<ubunturookie> i have an acer aspire and i was running ubuntu 8.04 and my wireless was running i up dated to 9.04 and 9.10 now my wireless stopped what may i do to have my wireless again?
<alkisg> ubunturookie: you should probably ask this question in #ubuntu, this channel (#edubuntu) is for education-related stuff...
<ubunturookie> sorry
<alkisg> np
<HedgeMage> brb
<HedgeMage> I'm back, but I may be slow to respond...I'm eating :)
<alkisg> HedgeMage: about http://imagebin.ca/view/KgCXBt.html - you're doing a fine job! But, maybe the colors are a bit vivid?
<HedgeMage> alkisg: check out http://imagebin.ca/view/5n49WaF.html  -- it's a work-in-progress of the forum page draft, with less punchy colors
<alkisg> Yup, saw it, looks fine and it was much needed :)
<HedgeMage> cool :)
<moldy> hello
<HedgeMage> hello :)
<alkisg> !info empathy lucid
<ubottu> empathy (source: empathy): High-level library and user-interface for Telepathy. In component main, is optional. Version 2.29.3-1ubuntu1 (lucid), package size 332 kB, installed size 1236 kB
#edubuntu 2016-01-01
<Maijin> Hello guys o/
<highvoltage> hey
<Maijin> I'm looking for help regarding the setup of an edubuntu ltsp server :)
#edubuntu 2016-01-02
<highvoltage> Maijin: ask away
