#ubuntu-manual 2010-01-18
<humphreybc> looks good Ilya
<humphreybc> do you want to push your changes?
<humphreybc> Tidying up the prologue was on my list of things to do anyhow :)
<humphreybc> wow the thread is up to 11 pages now
<humphreybc> IlyaHaykinson, how is the survey going?
<wolter> hey humphreybc why can't we use \begin{comment} in the manual?
<humphreybc> uhm.. pass?
<humphreybc> you want to add in a comment?
<wolter> Well, i get building problems when I use one in my tex file
<humphreybc> godbyk: ^^
<wolter> \begin{comment} So I don't have to prepend % to every sentence \end{comment}
<humphreybc> hmm
<humphreybc> i'm not sure
<wolter> should I use \application{App} everytime I mention an application's name?
<godbyk> back.
<godbyk> wolter: There's current not an environment defined for that, but I could make one.  You just want a place to dump comments that don't appear in the PDF? Or do you want the to appear in the PDF?
<godbyk> wolter: Yep, using \application{App} will let us format all the application names the same way (and also automatically add them to the index).
<wolter> godbyk, i just want the text between \begin{comment} and \end{comment} to work as % comments
<wolter> in other words, yes, off the PDF comments
<IlyaHaykinson_> humphreybc: i'll push the changes then
<IlyaHaykinson_> re survey: we've got about 200 responses
<humphreybc> awesome
<IlyaHaykinson_> I want about a thousand
<IlyaHaykinson_> and i want a lot more windows/mac users than we have (the majority is still linux ppl)
<IlyaHaykinson_> humphreybc: pushed
<wolter> I suggest that the text formatted with \nav{} is either underlined or italicized
<godbyk> wolter: Thanks, I'll see how that looks.  Right now all the formatting (\application, \nav, etc.) is just kind of placeholder. We can tweak it all whenever we like.
<wolter> Ok
<wolter> good
<wolter> hey humphreybc I just worked on the software and packaging section, i will push now in case you wanted to review my changes
<humphreybc> wolter sweet ill check them out
<godbyk> who's in charge of the Makefile? I'd like to hack on it or replace it.. it'd be better if we compile with pdflatex instead of straight latex.
<IlyaHaykinson_> re navigation, per style guidelines in Ubuntu and other guides, it should be <b>Menuitem</b> --> <b>Submenuitem</b> --> ...
<humphreybc> godbyk, i guess you are
<IlyaHaykinson_> or the equivalent thereof
<IlyaHaykinson_> except that in LaTeX we have codes for arrows
<humphreybc> yeah arrows are swell
<humphreybc> godbyk could you push through the changes to the notes?
<godbyk> we can pick different arrows, as well.  those were just the ones I typically use.
<godbyk> humphreybc: yeah, once I fix things I broke. :-)
<wolter> ok, i would use triangles for arrows
<humphreybc> haha okay neat
<godbyk> What's the normal bzr work-flow?
<humphreybc> what's the benefit of using pdflatex?
<godbyk> Right now, I make changes, then bzr commit, then bzr merge, then bzr commit again, then bzr push.
<wolter> Applications â¸ Accessories â¸ Terminal
<wolter> for example
<wolter> but smaller, if possible
<godbyk> for that second bzr commit, I'm always at a loss of what to say about the changes because nothing's changed -- it's just merging the main branch and my previous changes.
<wolter> let me see if I can find any
<godbyk> humphreybc: well, the immediate benefit is that the cover page stuff will work. :-)
<godbyk> also, I think the result PDF files may be smaller, though I haven't tested it.
<godbyk> the current compile path looks like this: .tex -> .ps -> .pdf
<godbyk> whereas with pdflatex, it's .tex -> .pdf
<wolter> Applications â¤ Accessories â¤ Terminal
<wolter> also looks good
<wolter> but i think the other one is better, for it is more simple
<humphreybc> cool, godbyk, do it. wolter I like those, how are you doing them in IRC?
<wolter> humphreybc, i just copy them from the character map
<humphreybc> oh ok
<humphreybc> i thought you might have been using black magic
<godbyk> wolter: Pick an arrow from here: http://www.ctan.org/tex-archive/info/symbols/.../symbols-letter.pdf
<wolter> there is a u<code> though
<humphreybc> link no woriky
<humphreybc> worky*
<godbyk> gah, bad url.
<godbyk> one sec.
<humphreybc> links in IRC are hopeless
<godbyk> http://www.ctan.org/tex-archive/info/symbols/comprehensive/symbols-letter.pdf
<godbyk> google mangled the url earlier.
<humphreybc> haha
<humphreybc> so pdflatex sounds good, go for it
<godbyk> as for the bzr workflow, am I doing it right? if so, what do most people add for the msg when they merge?
<wolter> ah my mouse weirded up again
<humphreybc> there are a LOT of symbols...
<godbyk> heh.. yeah.
<humphreybc> um no we usually don't merge
<humphreybc> we just make changes, commit, push
<godbyk> LaTeX is used for math all the time, so it requires a ton of symbols.
<humphreybc> commit -m "Changes go here"
<godbyk> I think it complains when I push and haven't merged.
<humphreybc> really?
<humphreybc> it shouldn't
<humphreybc> do you pull first to get the latest reviison tho?
<wolter> \blacktriangleright seems like it
<humphreybc> \Rightarrow looks okay too
<wolter> or \smalltriangleright
<humphreybc> wolter what page is blacktriangle on?
<wolter> hm.. 28, but just search for it
<godbyk> ok, I did a pull.. that appears to have worked.  Got a msg about "Text conflict in ubuntu-manual.cls".  Can I see what the conflict was so I can resolve it?
<wolter> humphreybc, I think rightarrow is a little cluttered
<humphreybc> you could be right
<humphreybc> i like \blacktriangleright
<humphreybc> i think if you do bzr diff godbyk
<humphreybc> it will show you some info
<humphreybc> bzr --help too
<godbyk> wolter: Ah, you'll have to pick a different black triangle.  Those are included only with the Minion Pro font.
<humphreybc> or bzr -merge. You can merge locally which would save two commits
<humphreybc> hahaha
<godbyk> The Minion Pro font is non-free.
<wolter> oh
<humphreybc> \closedsucc ?
<godbyk> I could compile it since I have the font, but no one else could.  (I could put in an if-minion-pro-installed-use-it-else-use-this-other-font for you guys, but then I have to compile all the final drafts.)
<humphreybc> lol no that's fine godbyk we can find another arrow
<humphreybc> \succ ?
<humphreybc> or \clossedsucc - they both look good
<humphreybc> minimilist
<humphreybc> maybe too minimilist
<humphreybc> \gg ?
<wolter> godbyk, which font should I look for?
<wolter> I think there are plenty of them triangles
<wolter> let me see
<godbyk> I think almost all of the other symbols in that list are safe.
<humphreybc> \gtrclosed
<godbyk> I can also draw a triangle and use it as a symbol, too.
<wolter> is gg >> ?
<humphreybc> yea
<wolter> If you could, I would draw a really small filled one
<humphreybc> \gtrclosed is like the filled black triangle, but not filled
<humphreybc> \blacktriangleright ?
<wolter> hm i like that one
<humphreybc> that one's filled
<humphreybc> it's a bit big tho
<wolter> i think that one is the non-free font
<humphreybc> oh
<humphreybc> yeah it is
<godbyk> Minion Pro is a rather nice font. :-)
<humphreybc> \Longrightarrow ?
<godbyk> I think it comes with Adobe Acrobat Reader for free, but I'm not positive.
<wolter> too long in my opinion
<godbyk> What do you like/not like about the current arrow?
<humphreybc> \Rightarrow ?
<humphreybc> which current arrow?
<godbyk> Too long/short? Too light/heavy?
<godbyk> The one we're using in \nav.
<humphreybc> goes to check
<godbyk> (look in the software and packaging chapter)
<humphreybc> too light
<humphreybc> not prominent enough
<humphreybc> where's chapter 8?
<humphreybc> no one has started yet...
<humphreybc> oh that's right Ryan was doing it
<humphreybc> but he's been away
<humphreybc> I like the filled one that wolter suggested
<humphreybc> can we find a free alternative to that?
<humphreybc> \chemarrow ?
<humphreybc> also the registered trademark stuff looks ugly!
<humphreybc> if we HAVE to put a circled R next windows or whatever, can we find a tiny one?
<godbyk> humphreybc: We don't legally have to put (R) next to stuff, and I don't think we should.
<humphreybc> Okay well remove them :)
<humphreybc> when you see one
<godbyk> Will do.
<wolter> yeah, or just replace recursively all the \textregistered or \texttrademark for an empty char
<humphreybc> aha!
<humphreybc> \ding{228}
<humphreybc> or 226 or 227
<humphreybc> or 232
<wolter> \mantriangleright
<wolter> ?
<wolter> let me check those
<humphreybc> yep that could work, if we want something bigger we could use \Forward
<humphreybc> man there are symbols for china here
<humphreybc> i mean really, \MartinVogel ??
<godbyk> Okay, I pushed a bunch of changes I'd made earlier (some which are still in-progress, so don't complain too much about the formatting yet! :)).
<humphreybc> \Womanface ??
<wolter> nice ding 228
<godbyk> What all did you have me promise to do while I was in a half-awake state this morning during the meeting?
<godbyk> And what did you want me to do just now?
<godbyk> (Brain's fried today.)
<humphreybc> hahaha
<wolter> hey humphreybc so are meetings going to be at 2000 from now on?
<humphreybc> um https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-manual/Meetings#Meeting Summary
<humphreybc> oh ignore the stupid split link
<humphreybc> but meeting summar
<humphreybc> just have a perve at the voting results
<humphreybc> that's practically what has to happen :P
<humphreybc> wolter: yep
<wolter> good =D
<humphreybc> we should have a sudo rm -rf / command with \skull beside it....
<humphreybc> haha
<wolter> hahaha
<wolter> yes
<IlyaHaykinson_> we should put the (R) at least once
<wolter> We should put it short after the titlepage
<IlyaHaykinson_> my recommendation is the first time in the manual use the full name of the thing (for example Microsoft(R) Windows(R) Vista, etc)
<IlyaHaykinson_> any subsequent time, no need to use the symbol anymore
<IlyaHaykinson_> so, basically, once per manual for the \textregistered or \texttrademark per brand
<wolter> like, We acknowledge that <list of used registered brands> are registered brands and blah blah blah
<godbyk> IlyaHaykinson: It's not really our place to defend or promote anyone else's registered trademarks.  All we should do is capitalize the words appropriately.
<humphreybc> lol godbyk you've changed a tonne of stuff :P
<wolter> style stuff?
<wolter> let me pull
<godbyk> A bit.. most of it is just taking out the pre-existing formatting so I can clean it up.
<humphreybc> I'll talk to the doc team about what they do
<godbyk> So some things will be going back in.
<humphreybc> they would know more about legalities
<humphreybc> neat
<IlyaHaykinson_> godbyk: it's not a promotion, it's actually a CYA move -- we're acknowledging the fact that the mark we are using is registered
<IlyaHaykinson_> but after that, there's no need to do any further mentions
<IlyaHaykinson_> this is pretty common for written works (books etc)
<wolter> godbyk, I must say I like it, the font is nice to read
<wolter> But I think we should adopt a more ubuntu-like style
<wolter> and tab headers
<wolter> I like the notes better though
<godbyk> wolter: The current chapter and section headings are the LaTeX defaults.  I haven't gotten back to reformatting those, yet.
<wolter> Also, watch the bullet symbols
<godbyk> IlyaHaykinson: I understand, but we're not legally required to specify (R) or TM or SM -- those are used solely by the companies that own those trademarks and service marks.
<wolter> and, if there was a way to group near notes, that would be awesome
<godbyk> wolter: What about the bullet symbols?
<wolter> I don't know, I prefer the old ones (plain circles)
<godbyk> The notes appear adjacent to where they were entered by the author.
<wolter> lol ---> FLOSS @ chapter 10
<humphreybc> hmm the serif font does look quite nice
<humphreybc> but it's not "ubuntu" ish
<wolter> Also, I think there is a space between bulleted points a little bigger than it should be
<IlyaHaykinson_> godbyk: the problem is that our stuff is competitve in a way.
<IlyaHaykinson_> see http://en.allexperts.com/q/Business-Technical-Writing-1516/Trademark-Symbol-Use.htm (the answer to the question references a good manual of style)
<IlyaHaykinson_> this is pretty common in technical writing
<wolter> or we could just define variables for windows and mac and other common trademarks used
<wolter> I don't know...
<IlyaHaykinson_> we only need to do it once, not every time
<humphreybc> we totally need to get a better R symbol then
<IlyaHaykinson_> probably just need to redefine the command to make it smaller and superscript
<IlyaHaykinson_> alright, i gotta run to dinner. be back in an hour or so
<humphreybc> righto
<wolter> Ill play some guitar, ill be here though
<humphreybc> wolter you should learn "Gravedigger" by Dave Matthews
<humphreybc> I've been learning it, it's a great song. Fairly easy and very effective.
<godbyk> IlyaHaykinson: I grabbed my info from the Chicago Manual of Style.
<godbyk> It states:
<wolter> oh thanks humphreybc I like dave matthews :)
<godbyk> "Brand names that are registered trademarks -- often so indicated in dictionaries -- should be capitalized if they must be used. A better choice is to substitute a generic term when available. Although tht esmbols (R) and TM often accompany trademark names on product packaging and in promotional material, ther eis no legal requirement to use these symbols, and they should be ommitted wherever possible. Note also that some companies
<godbyk> want people to use both the proper and the generic terms in reference to their products ("Kleenex facial tissues," not just {"Kleenex"), but here again there is no legal requirement
<godbyk> Also, from reading online, if you put (R) next to a trademark that is *not* registered in that country, then it is illegal.
<godbyk> http://inventors.about.com/od/inventing101trademarks/f/tm_symbol.htm
<humphreybc> leave them out then
<humphreybc> i'll confirm with the docs team
<godbyk> In short, IANAL but from a typographic standpoint, I very much dislike them.  :-)
<humphreybc> why on earth are there characters from the simpsons in latex!?
<humphreybc> no wonder the download is so damn big!
<godbyk> LOL
<godbyk> It's kind of like python where if you can think of a feature, there's probably package that implements it already.
<humphreybc> hahaha
<humphreybc> I would like a feature in Ubuntu that flips my screen around every 5 minutes to a different orientation
<humphreybc> so I can stretch my neck
<humphreybc> it would reduce RSI
<humphreybc> because I spend too bloody long in long meetings and IRC chats....
<humphreybc> :P
<doctormo_> humphreybc: I should be finished with the first release of ground control tomorrow... it's had some niggles today, but I will get a video out explaining how to use it.
<wolter> are you martin owens?
<godbyk> humphreybc: Okay, the credits are now in a three-column format.  I also changed the arrow used in the menu selection stuff.  (See page 17 and tell me what you think.)
<humphreybc> wolter: yes doctormo is martin
<wolter> cool
<godbyk> wolter, humphreybc: do the new arrows look better?
<humphreybc> yep godbyk they do look good
<godbyk> 'kay, cool.
<humphreybc> and the credits is definitely an improvement :)
<wolter> should I pull?
<godbyk> wolter: sure.
<wolter> hm godbyk looks nice
<wolter> I would prefer the grtclosed though
<godbyk> wolter: It looks like grtclosed is only in the Minion Pro font, though, right?  (Did I miss it elsewhere?)
<IlyaHaykinson_> for credits, can't we just do them later on (towards the end) by going over bzr logs?
<wolter> oh
<wolter> oh..
<IlyaHaykinson_> instead of maintainign them all the time?
<wolter> and how about the one in mnfnt?
<wolter> man font or something?
<humphreybc> Ilya, yeah probably
<humphreybc> I just wanted to get an idea of what it'll look like
<godbyk> The MnSymbol package uses the Minion Pro font for its symbols.
<IlyaHaykinson_> godbyk: ok, i agree with your research on (R)
<IlyaHaykinson_> are Minion Pro fonts open content?
<godbyk> I'm not sure what you mean by "open content".
<godbyk> I think you can get a version of them for free with Adobe Acrobat Reader (but I'm not sure).
<IlyaHaykinson_> it would appear that the fonts are under a commercial license
<godbyk> I have a copy that I bought, so I can compile docs using them.. but if you don't have the fonts, it won't look the same when you compile it.
<IlyaHaykinson_> they may be free, but they are not a) in the public domain, b) under the GFDL, c) under Creative Commons Attribution or Attribution-ShareAlike
<IlyaHaykinson_> thus, they're not "open"
<IlyaHaykinson_> which would mean that anyone using them needs to agree to a commercial license
<IlyaHaykinson_> https://store4.adobe.com/cfusion/store/html/index.cfm?store=OLS-US&event=displayFontPackage&code=1719
<IlyaHaykinson_> it's unfortunately not enough that they're distributed for free with a commercial program
<godbyk> IlyaHaykinson: Yes, all of that is true.
<IlyaHaykinson_> godbyk: the change to default-apps/gettingonline.tex with \advancedusage becoming a margin note didn't work
<IlyaHaykinson_> first, i really would like to have non-margin paragraph styles
<IlyaHaykinson_> i.e. just a differently-highlighted paragraph for advanced usage etc
<godbyk> IlyaHaykinson: Is it going to be a warning-like box? or what's its intent?
<IlyaHaykinson_> these aren't things that should go in the margin (plus, in this particular case, it breaks the layout completely)
<IlyaHaykinson_> no
<godbyk> (I have to make a warning paragraph thingy still.)
<IlyaHaykinson_> similar to a warning, but more like a paragraph for people who want to be advanced
<IlyaHaykinson_> or do advanced things
<IlyaHaykinson_> not necessarily anything to watch out for...
<IlyaHaykinson_> but also not something i want to just put in the main body without highlighting as being advanced stuff
<IlyaHaykinson_> in this particular case, it's a brief discussion of needing to enter a MAC address in certain cases... this is not something i would want to leave in the main body because it'll confuse people.
<IlyaHaykinson_> whereas in an "advanced" paragraph frame, it'll clearly stand out enough to be skipped by those who don't care, or specifically looked-at by those who need it
<godbyk> It may be better to leave it in the main text (as a normal paragraph), but you'll have to explain to people when they need to enter the MAC address.
<godbyk> If it's for "advanced usage," should it be included in the manual in the first place?  (I honestly don't know.)
<IlyaHaykinson_> i think it's just one example of something that should be mentioned close to where the discussion is taking place, but very distinctly presented as not being part of the main narrative
<IlyaHaykinson_> this is the case for most technical books on my shelf, at least... there's boxes, and notes, etc as needed.
<godbyk> IlyaHaykinson: Sure.  Do the boxes in those book tend to attract your attention or do you typically skip over reading them?
<godbyk> And in this case, do we want the advanced usage notes to attract attention or minimize it?
<IlyaHaykinson_> different readers will do different things. some people will see that it's for advanced use and skip right over it. others will read it.
<IlyaHaykinson_> but regardless, it'll be clearly demarcated
<IlyaHaykinson_> otherwise, i basically have to do the same demarcation -- but in prose
<IlyaHaykinson_> or, alternately, leave it out of the manual altogether
<IlyaHaykinson_> neither option sounds appealing :)
<godbyk> Okay. Let me work up something here real quick and we'll see how it looks.
<IlyaHaykinson_> thank you much
<IlyaHaykinson_> btw... quick question.
<IlyaHaykinson_> i noticed that with the recent change to the templates, you've removed color
<IlyaHaykinson_> while it's fair to say that color will be mostly useless for folks who do print the manual -- i doubt many will waste color ink on it...
<IlyaHaykinson_> it looks like the majority of our readers will not be printing it
<IlyaHaykinson_> which means that we can use color, at least lightly, to help distinguish main section headings from subheadings
<IlyaHaykinson_> font size is certainly a good hint too, but it may not be enough when the point difference between section, subsection, and subsubsection is as small as it is currently
<godbyk> Yeah, I have to reformat the headings.
<godbyk> I basically reverted a lot of the formatting to its original LaTeX defaults and I'm now applying the formatting decisions we made earlier.
<godbyk> So the headings will be getting a makeover soon.
<godbyk> Hopefully people aren't going so deep on the heading levels (hierarchy) that it becomes difficult to follow.
<IlyaHaykinson_> ok, nifty, thanks. if possible, don't keep identing like we did before
<IlyaHaykinson_> it created such huge margins that the content looked really funny.
<IlyaHaykinson_> most books, imho, don't use section indentation.
<godbyk> (Similar to: Just because you have <h1> through <h7> in HTML doesn't mean you *should* have seven levels of headings in your document.)
<IlyaHaykinson_> oh. right. i think our current three level set up is actually quite good.
<IlyaHaykinson_> keeps us restrained.
<godbyk> I haven't looked into everyone's writing, so I'm not sure how far people are going.  Hopefully subsection is low enough. :-)
<godbyk> (Also, it means there are fewer headings I have to format! :-))
<IlyaHaykinson_> well, section, subsection, subsubsection is what i meant by three levels.
<IlyaHaykinson_> i think we could do with two levels, though so far just chap 3 (me) and chap 5 are using subsubsection
<IlyaHaykinson_> which is rather to say that not a lot of other sections are fleshed out yet. :)
<IlyaHaykinson_> personally i'd prefer if we leave all three levels handy. my chapter is very long, and i have to use sections one per application.
<IlyaHaykinson_> so really subsection and subsubsection are my two levels of hierarchy on a regular basis.
<IlyaHaykinson_> (in other words: i'd vote to keep subsub, if possible)
<godbyk> Gotcha.
<IlyaHaykinson_> ooh, gedit has a latex plugin
<IlyaHaykinson_> ...complete with an embedded preview. very nice.
<IlyaHaykinson_> btw, quick hit from the survey so far: nearly 40% of respondents say that they would be interested in printing the manual.
<godbyk> wow.
<godbyk> Since we're generating PDFs, we could also easily use a publish-on-demand site (like lulu.com) and people could buy printed copies.
<godbyk> Btw, wolter, your \begin{comment} blah blah \end{comment} stuff should work now (though I haven't tested it).
<wolter> oh thanks, you are really efficient godbyk :)
<godbyk> wolter: I can't take much credit for that one.. It required \RequirePackage{comment}.
<godbyk> Done! :-)
<wolter> haha
<godbyk> One of the best things about LaTeX is that if there's a feature you want, chances are someone's already written a package to implement it.
<wolter> nice
<wolter> i never knew about latex and how convenient it was until I joined this project
<wolter> godbyk, and how do you write the style?
<wolter> it is not CSS, is it?
<godbyk> Nope, it's not CSS.  It's TeX -- its own language.
<godbyk> You can take a look at the ubuntu-manual.cls to see what it looks like.
<wolter> oh
<godbyk> (most of the interesting code is toward the bottom.)
<wolter> nice
<wolter> good to know, I might play around with it a little later
<godbyk> TeX is a typesetting language written by Donald Knuth in the late 70s and early 80s.
<godbyk> It evolved into a Turing-complete language, so while it may not be easy, you really can do some crazy things with it.
<wolter> Worked like a charm
<wolter> yeah well, I wouldn't call it hard wither
<wolter> either*
<wolter> at least not LaTeX
<wolter> (i've heard latex is different from tex)
<godbyk> LaTeX is a set of macros built using the TeX language.
<godbyk> Kind of a framework, so to speak.
<godbyk> So LaTeX has nice syntactic sugar and commands/macros to simplify things for us mere writers.
<IlyaHaykinson_> hm, you know, one thing is quite annoying with our current layout: it's made for printing....
<IlyaHaykinson_> so the margins shift between inside/outside
<IlyaHaykinson_> and that means the content keeps shifting too
<IlyaHaykinson_> makes reading the PDF, linearly, kind of distracting as the left alignment of text shifts with every page.
<godbyk> IlyaHaykinson: Yeah, that'll change in a bit.
<godbyk> (It's just a matter of saying \LoadClass[oneside]{book} instead of \LoadClass[twoside]{book}.)
<godbyk> In evince, I go to View > Dual.
<godbyk> Then it looks all pretty again.
<IlyaHaykinson_> plus, the alternating-margins only makes sense when printed in book form...
<IlyaHaykinson_> godbyk: alright. perhaps eventually, if we decide to offer an actual book version, we can have an alternate set of classes that do this twoside thing
<godbyk> Yep.  I'm designing it on now so I don't have a bunch of work to do later.
<IlyaHaykinson_> well, yes, pretty, though just by virtue of being side-by-side :)  thanks though.
<godbyk> When we switch to oneside, it will just use the formatting and page layout of the right-hand-side page.
<IlyaHaykinson_> nod. makes sense.
<IlyaHaykinson_> thanks
<wolter> oh.. now i understand why the text body shifts
<godbyk> There is, in fact, a reason to the madness!  <grin>
<wolter> haha
<wolter> hey godbyk, is there a way I can separate my file into various and just include the text from the main file?
<IlyaHaykinson_> wolter: see how i did it in default-apps
<godbyk> wolter: Yep.
<godbyk> Just split your file into multiple .tex files.
<wolter> nice
<godbyk> Then in your main chapter .tex file, use \include{sec1} \include{sec2} etc.
<IlyaHaykinson_> can't use include, i think... gotta use input
<IlyaHaykinson_> include doesn't allow you to nest other includes
<godbyk> If you use \include, it will insert a page break.  If you use \input it won't.
<godbyk> IlyaHaykinson: Ah, that sounds vaguely familiar.
<godbyk> (I never split my docs so far down. I usually keep one chapter per file.)
<IlyaHaykinson_> yeah
<godbyk> Inkscape isn't exporting this icon to PDF in a very nice way.  :-(
<IlyaHaykinson_> the warning one?
<godbyk> yeah
<IlyaHaykinson_> shouldn't it be a .PS or whatnot?
<IlyaHaykinson_> and theoretically there should be SVG -> PS conversion?
<godbyk> Well, I'm hoping to bypass the tex -> ps -> pdf pipeline and go straight from tex to pdf.
<IlyaHaykinson_> ah, during the build process?
<wolter> godbyk, yeah, inkscape is giving me fun too
<wolter> with transparencies
<wolter> ?
<godbyk> that's my guess.  not sure, though.
<godbyk> I'd hate to have to export a nice vector graphic to a lame raster graphic.
<IlyaHaykinson_> EPS is vector, isn't it?
<godbyk> yes, but I don't think pdflatex likes it.
<godbyk> plain latex will eat eps just fine, I think.
<godbyk> unfortunately, plain latex doesn't like pngs (but pdflatex does).  (if I remember correctly)
<godbyk> has to do with the differences in ps vs. pdf.
<wolter> hey godbyk so the cover doesn't have to be in pdf format?
<wolter> If it can be plain png and pdflatex works it nice, then i'm so relieved
<wolter> anyway godbyk, how would I change the text color of chapters when editing the ubuntu-manual.cls ?
<godbyk> Well, I *think* that using PDF for the cover and warning icons (and any other vector graphics) may reduce the resulting PDF file size.. but I'm not positive.  (I'd have to experiment to see.)
<godbyk> If it comes down to it, we can use PNG graphics throughout, though.
<wolter> would reduce quality of the cover then as well, wouldn't it?
<godbyk> Yes, the PNG format would compress it and things like gradients may not fare as well, we'll have to see.
<godbyk> Editing the colors of headings isn't the easiest thing to do.  Since we're using the titlesec package, it makes it a bit easier, but it still rather confusing.
<godbyk> If you type 'texdoc titlesec' at the prompt, it will open up the documentation for the titlesec package.
<godbyk> IlyaHaykinson: I just pushed an update that includes \warning and \advanced.
<godbyk> I'll fix them to use nice icons after I'm done beating up inkscape (or after I've given in to it).
<wolter> haha
<wolter> I know a bit of inkscape so if I could help you with anything just ask
<godbyk> wolter: Just for you, I restored the colors of the headings. :-)
<wolter> ooh nice
<wolter> let me pull
<godbyk> (People are probably tired of seeing commit emails from me!)
<wolter> haha, don't bother.. but I think you should make the font bigger and bold, as it was before. Anyway, don't feel compelled to do it right now, even though your kindness would be well appreaciated
<IlyaHaykinson_> godbyk: nice updates, thanks.
<godbyk> I just set them sans serif and bold.  I'll have to play with the font sizes tomorrow, I think.  I want to make sure there's a clear hierarchy between the different heading levels.
<godbyk> It's 2 a.m. here, so I think I'll head to bed.  I'll continuing the formatting stuff tomorrow.
<IlyaHaykinson_> besides, godbyk, i think i bother ppl with just as many commits as you.
<godbyk> (Feel free to email me, file bugs, or leave messages on IRC for me while I'm away and I'll look into all of it in the morning.)
<wolter> ok, thanks :)
<IlyaHaykinson_> and, godbyk, thanks for the great work you are doing on the layout.
<wolter> yeah, i like memoserv
<godbyk> wolter: Works for me!
<godbyk> Okay, g'night guys.
<wolter> gnight
<IlyaHaykinson_> alright, midnight for me, time for bed as well.
<IlyaHaykinson_> bye folks.
<wolter> bye IlyaHaykinson
<jmburgess> hey everyone
<jmburgess> wow
<jmburgess> godyk has done a crap ton
<jmburgess> he is a lot better than me at this
<jmburgess> hey tya
<jmburgess> or sorry XiXaQ
<XiXaQ> :)
<XiXaQ> what the hell does that quit message mean?
<XiXaQ> * XiXaQ has quit (Success) ?
<jmburgess> haha
<jmburgess> it means that you quit and that was the comment your client gave
<jmburgess> not ure why
<XiXaQ> no, I didn't quit.
<XiXaQ> also, that wouldn't look like that. That would look like * XiXaQ has quit (quit: Success)
<XiXaQ> wouldn't it?
<XiXaQ> hmm. Maybe not. * IlyaHaykinson_ has quit ("nitenite")
<jmburgess> yeah i am pretty sure it is your client that does that
<pererik87> someones earning karma:   	  (no translation yet)
<pererik87> 	Translated and reviewed by Fredrik Sudmann on 2010-01-15 :P
<pererik87> omg thats so annoying its everywhere.
<kell05> Does anyone know how the manual is going to be delivered to the end user?
<pererik87> I don't really know. i hope it wont compete with Ubuntu Help Center in system -> help and support
<kell05> It might be wise to consider this now, especially since the document must be VERY visible to noobies.  Has it been considered asking ubuntuguide.org for a merge of the two projects?
<pererik87> i didn't know about Ubuntu Help center before today. im so used to overlooking help symbols in windows, because they never did me any good
<pererik87> I guess its a common problem among newbies also
<kell05> You can lead a horse to water...
<pererik87> i think ubuntu manual is the more to be printed form of help. i believe it could follow with new computers. UHC also needs to be sync. with the manual.
<kell05> Never thought of a printed version.
<pererik87> I don't know anything right now, i thought this was a UHC project. i didnt know it existed
<pererik87> But i think it looks very good as a print. have you seen the front page layout and so. amazing
<kell05> Any reason why my minor changes were rejected?  I added labels to the chapters to allow for cross referencing then alamati made modifications for version 124 and deleted them.  I am new to Open source development, so I just want to get my head round it so it doesn't happen again.
<pererik87> The big guys live in another timezone. ask again in a few hours. I don't know the answer sorry
<jmburgess> kell05: wait I am pretty sure we don't have a review process
<kell05> Fair enough.
<pererik87> what do i do with the one posting (not translated yet) as translations for stuff?
<wolter> heyo
 * dutchie writes up the translations process
<godbyk> kell05: Per your earlier question, it was probably just due to someone not merging your changes before they commit (or something like that).  That's my guess, at least.
<godbyk> kell05: Though, the labels should come *after* \chapter, otherwise they won't do what you think.
<kell05> Ah, that was a screw up on the sed oneliner I used.
<kell05> Cheers
<godbyk> Once we have labels we can start using real cross-referencing instead of hard-coding it.
<godbyk> (It'd been on my TODO list, so I'm glad someone's picked it up!)
<dutchie> right, I just pushed an update on the translations
<dutchie> if it screws the already-done ones up again, tell
<godbyk> Hey, dutchie, has the Makefile ever been modified or is it the stock LaTeX Makefile?
<dutchie> no, but I was going to at some point
<godbyk> If there's nothing special in it, I'll probably replace it with one that uses pdflatex instead of plain latex.
<dutchie> not just sed -i 's/latex/pdflatex/'?
<dutchie> it seems pretty powerful, and I've got kind of used to it
<godbyk> Can't, 'cause it's trying to be too smart about things.
<dutchie> what, like images?
<godbyk> It expects to take the .tex -> .ps -> .pdf path.
<godbyk> images and hyperlinks, yeah.
<dutchie> yeah, it might be easier to deal with a Makefile we've built ourselves
<dutchie> it does have some pretty nice features, like all that colourised output
<godbyk> I do like the colorized output.
<godbyk> I'll try to see if we can keep that or find another colorizer.
<godbyk> btw, do the po4a comments in the tex code tell po4a to handle it in a special way or something?  (just curious.. I've never used po4a)
<dutchie> it complains if it doesn't know what's going on
<dutchie> don't think it treats it differently or anythign
<godbyk> Ah, okay.  Should I be adding those comments (and if so, when?), or is it easy enough for you to keep up with?
<dutchie> well, all these extra commits are a pain
<dutchie> just add them in whenever you do a new environment
<dutchie> I assume you can work out the format?
<godbyk> I can do that.  Do I add them for commands, too?
<dutchie> don't think so
<godbyk> 'kay.
 * dutchie double-checks
<godbyk> Well, I'll set up a new Makefile then and maybe we can see about automating the translations, too.
<dutchie> yeah
<dutchie> encodings are going to be a pain
<godbyk> Yeah, that'll be interesting.
<godbyk> If things get too hairy, we can always try switching over to XeLaTeX.  It'll let us use any font we want and works a lot better with unicode, I think.
#ubuntu-manual 2010-01-19
 * humphreybc just made a showcase of his Ubuntu desktop, check it out :) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DMDjzqc9cIo
<sebsebseb> hi
<sebsebseb> wolter: hi
<wolter> hey sebsebseb
<wolter> again
<sebsebseb> wolter: yeah hi again, so what do you want me to see/read
<wolter> sebsebseb, chapter 5: software and packaging
<wolter> you can download the pdf in the launchpad site, need a link?
<sebsebseb> wolter: oh your doing typing for it now as well?
<wolter> Yeah.. I always did
<wolter> Even before I made the cover
<sebsebseb> oh right yeah, I forgot for  a second or whatever
<wolter> I was working on another section
<wolter> ok
<sebsebseb> or no I thought you were only doing the cover
<sebsebseb> wolter: i'll look next time or whatever, I don't feel like it tonight
<wolter> oh ok
<wolter> no problem
<sebsebseb> I was going to do  Lucid alpha 2 in a vm the other night
<sebsebseb> actsaully install it,  I mentioned that here
<sebsebseb> I ended up doing in a vm then or soon after,  the live session only
<sebsebseb> humphreybc: you tried it? like it?
<wolter> oh hi humphreybc
<wolter> hey sebsebseb, do you still have that vm?
<wolter> Cause I would like to ask you some questions about software cente
<wolter> r
<humphreybc> hi wolter
<sebsebseb> I have alpha 1 in a vm.  and  alpha 2 well I got a virtual hard disk for it, but not installed on it yet,  I just ran the live session  last time from the ISO
<sebsebseb> wolter: I don't like software centre much,  it had some proper useage in Karmic the other day
<humphreybc> does anyone know how to insert a line space?
<sebsebseb> wolter: with my little brother
<sebsebseb> yeah software centre really isn't that good at the moment, when wanting to install quite a lot of apps at once
<wolter> sebsebseb, its actually agreed on calling it center and not centre
<wolter> ;)
<sebsebseb> wolter: wrong
<sebsebseb> well
<wolter> humphreybc, line space?
<godbyk> humphreybc: You want to skip a lone?  \smallskip
<humphreybc> yea
<wolter> sebsebseb, no... correct.
<humphreybc> okay
<humphreybc> does that go in the line spaceA?
<sebsebseb> wolter: by default it's center, because of how American (usanian) English is the default for most computer software
<sebsebseb> ,but really the British way is the only true English
<wolter> yeah I bet, but I mean Ubuntu agreed on calling it center and not centre
<godbyk> humphreybc: You can also use \medskip or \bigskip for larger blank spaces.
<humphreybc> awesome :)
<sebsebseb> and so also in en GB it's Centre in the menu
<sebsebseb> wolter: so what
<wolter> sebsebseb, no nothing, thats what I meant
<sebsebseb> Ubuntu are also quite American these days, even though where Canonical HQ is located
<wolter> Usanian, you mean, sebsebseb ?
<sebsebseb> wolter: yes
<wolter> hahaha
<sebsebseb> Ubuntu is getting rather American yeah
<sebsebseb> well I already knew how they are probably going to have a music thing similar to Itunes in Lucid
<sebsebseb> I read something about that  earlier, and how it will probably use the Amazon store, and how that apparantly ony works in the USA
<sebsebseb> well if that's the case, and it ends up having this music thing and it uses the Amazon store,  which is only for USA?   well if it's only for the USA, that's not very good for a Linux distro, which is global, and rather global indeed since The Internet
 * humphreybc is hacking on the prologue
<humphreybc> how can we hyperlink?
<sebsebseb> wolter: ^
<humphreybc> godbyk?
<godbyk> link to what?
<humphreybc> instead of using a \url and showing the URL
<humphreybc> how can we hyperlink?
<humphreybc> I'm making some changes to the prologue
<wolter> sebsebseb, amazon is not just for USA...
<sebsebseb> no not Amazon itself
<wolter> I can buy stuff from amazon.. What do you mean?
<humphreybc> and I want to hyperlink to the Server Edition features list in a margin note
<sebsebseb> ,but the music store is apparantly
<godbyk> humphreybc: cool.. I'll have you fix the cross-references.
<wolter> oh
<godbyk> if you want to link to a website, use \href.
<godbyk> \href{http://blah.com/}{Blah}
<godbyk> (or the other way 'round.. I forget.)
<humphreybc> I see
<humphreybc> thanks
<sebsebseb> wolter: so  if they end up having this Ubuntu One music store, ideally it should work in many counteries
<godbyk> for the cross-references (such as "See chapter 10: Blah", use "See Chapter~\ref{ch:chapter-label}: \nameref{chapter-label}"
<godbyk> that way if we rearrange chapters later or add new ones the references get updated automatically
<sebsebseb> wolter: some counteries they can't just sell music to, because of the way that's done,  lisenseing
<godbyk> and they're hyperlinks so you can click on the chapter number and it'll jump you there in the pdf.
<humphreybc> what are the chapter labels tho?
<sebsebseb> !ot | sebsebseb wolter
<manualbot> sebsebseb wolter: Best to keep this channel mainly on topic!
<humphreybc> give me an example
<sebsebseb> indeed at that
<humphreybc> use Chapter 10
<sebsebseb> and I came up with the factoid suggestion :)
<godbyk> humphreybc: look at the .tex file for chapter 10.. right below the \chapter command, you'll see a \label command.
<wolter> lol sebsebseb... i'm beginning to agree on that you are a factoid master
<godbyk> that's the label you'll use in \ref and \nameref
<wolter> godbyk, thats just glorious
<wolter> godbyk, i'll use that a lot
<sebsebseb> wolter:  to some extent I guess so yeah,  altough I don't know all the manualbot  and ubottu factoids
<godbyk> We can also make labels for sections as well, but I was too lazy for that. :-)
<godbyk> Oh, and \pageref{ch:chapter-label} will print the page number the chapter starts on.
<wolter> !factoids
<manualbot> Hi! I'm #ubuntu-manual's favorite infobot, you can search my brain yourself at http://ubottu.com/factoids.cgi - Usage info: http://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuBots
<sebsebseb> wolter: well yeah and I would use !bot for that
<sebsebseb> !bot
<manualbot> Hi! I'm #ubuntu-manual's favorite infobot, you can search my brain yourself at http://ubottu.com/factoids.cgi - Usage info: http://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuBots
<wolter> godbyk, yeah.. as long as chapters aren't too long to skim through, we shouldn't need that
<godbyk> wolter: hopefully not.
<wolter> godbyk, I think you should prepend some whitespace to headings according to their level
<wolter> It is still not very defined
<godbyk> wolter: headings are still in the works.  I'll adjust the font size, spacing, etc. soon.
<wolter> oh ok, nice work godbyk :)
<humphreybc> godbyk I've changed them but I'm getting ?? in the PDF when I make it.  I'll push it and could you check it please?
<godbyk> sure.
<godbyk> the ?? usually means it doesn't find something with that label.
<humphreybc> hmm. Well probably easiest just for you to fix one and I'll use that as an example.
 * humphreybc pushed revision 133
<godbyk> humphreybc: In the \nameref command, you forgot the ch: part of the label.
<godbyk> humphreybc: also, instead of making ``this webpage.'' a hyperlink, you should include the url so that folks who have printed the manual can still go to the website.
<humphreybc> oh true
<humphreybc> but it'll be nice and long in the margin note tho
<humphreybc> Did you fix them up and push or should I?
<godbyk> it should wrap.  if it doesn't, let me know and I'll poke at it.
<godbyk> I haven't fixed them.
<humphreybc> righto
<humphreybc> godbyk, perhaps the label names should be the same as the .tex file names?
<godbyk> you can make them whatever you like (excluding special chars).
<godbyk> I typically use the ch: prefix for chapters (sec: for section) and use an abbreviated form of the chapter title.
<godbyk> whatever is easy to remember, basically.
<humphreybc> hokay
<humphreybc> who is writing chapter 10??
<godbyk> not it!  :-)
<wolter> I think I finished 5, for the time being..
<wolter> We still need to go through some stuff on the TODO comment at the beginning of the source
<humphreybc> wotler
<humphreybc> wolter* i'll take a look tonight :)
<humphreybc> are you happy for me to just make small changes?
<wolter> humphreybc, good
<wolter> humphreybc, of course.. but comment about it please :()
<wolter> :) *
<humphreybc> sure will
<humphreybc> did you look at the video I made today? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DMDjzqc9cIo
<wolter> no, i'd be happy to :)
 * wolter pauses Van Halen
<wolter> i like your desktop humphreybc :)
<humphreybc> so do I :P
<humphreybc> do you think it's a good preview of Ubuntu?
<wolter> lol you almost draw a nipple to that girls photo hahah
<wolter> yeah/.. awesome so far
<wolter> except for the music hahaha
<humphreybc> lol
<humphreybc> my laptop is much more responsive after installing preload
<wolter> preload?
<wolter> hm.. nice how you closed the windows with the beat
<wolter> at 3:02
<wolter> oh.. now I have dark background in my nautilus and autohiding panel
<wolter> i'd like to watch your drumming, if you excuse me
<humphreybc> sudo apt-get install preload
<humphreybc> haha go for it that's why the videos are on youtube!
<humphreybc> oh and rate and comment my videos :)
<humphreybc> please :)
<wolter> ok will do :)
<wolter> humphreybc, NICE pop drumming vid
<wolter> nice music
<wolter> what is it?
<humphreybc> it's part of this collection of drumless tracks that I downloaded last year
<humphreybc> they're only 30 seconds long or so
<humphreybc> just to learn how to play different styles
<wolter> thats so nice!
<wolter> If you could record one with your drums and make it sound very neat, I would like a copy of it
<wolter> Sounds like a nice jazz band
<wolter> humphreybc, is preload cli?
<humphreybc> no no
<humphreybc> it's a daemon
<humphreybc> it tracks what apps you use the most and keeps the app data in a memory cache
<humphreybc> so then they start very fast
<humphreybc> it's good if you have excess RAM
<humphreybc> See I've got 3GB but most of the time Ubuntu only uses about 700
<humphreybc> 700mb
<wolter> oh
<wolter> so, you start preload at start?
<wolter> startup*
<wolter> sounds very nice
<humphreybc> No it starts automatically and runs in the background
<IlyaHaykinson> *sigh* anyone heard from the guy writing Chap 4 recently?
<wolter> if you would make a cover of a muse song I would be so pleased haha
<IlyaHaykinson> Deon Spengler?
<IlyaHaykinson> humphreybc: re prologue, "...clear diagrams..." -- we're going to have diagrams?
<humphreybc> sorry laptop ran out of juice
<IlyaHaykinson> well, quitting is one way to answer my question :)
<humphreybc> who's on chap 4?
<IlyaHaykinson> well, that and the one after that.
<IlyaHaykinson> to restate:
<IlyaHaykinson> *sigh* anyone heard from the guy writing Chap 4 recently? Deon Spengler?
<IlyaHaykinson> humphreybc: re prologue, "...clear diagrams..." -- we're going to have diagrams?
<humphreybc> uh
<humphreybc> 1) Nope I haven't head from Deon.. and 2) Probably not, I will change that, but we can see.
<IlyaHaykinson> re Deon, hm. i emailed him, no answer for a couple of days. i'm worried a bit because chapters 1..5 are the most important ones in the manual.
<wolter> humphreybc, you do use gnome-do?
<humphreybc> ya...
<humphreybc> hmm
<humphreybc> 4 is a big one too
<IlyaHaykinson> exactly
<IlyaHaykinson> as are chapters 1, and 2, which also haven't had too much change recently
<IlyaHaykinson> godbyk: for the title page, can we really stretch the whole image to the edges? won't they cut off when it's printed?
<godbyk> They can get cut off (and the amount varies by printer).
<godbyk> Once a title page has been chosen, we will probably have to tweak it to make sure that all the important bits (text) are inside common printers' margins.
<IlyaHaykinson> actually print preview for me shows that it scales it down
<wolter> Yeah well, the printed version could include not the cover
<wolter> because those who want the cover printed will have the equipment to print the whole page i think
<IlyaHaykinson> i'll have to print it out at the office tomorrow to see what happens
<godbyk> I think my laser printer has 0.25-inch margins all around, but 0.5-inch on the bottom.
<godbyk> My old inkjet had 0.25 left and right, 0.5 top, and 0.75 bottom.
<IlyaHaykinson> but, weirdly, when print previewed, there's like a 3-inch margin at the bottom
<IlyaHaykinson> can you guys try it?
<godbyk> the test page that ubuntu prints has lines around the edge that you can use to see where your particular printer cuts things off.
<IlyaHaykinson> actually the large bottom margin is a problem for me even in evince
<godbyk> are you printing to A4 paper?
<godbyk> because the paper size in the PDF is set for letter at the moment.
<IlyaHaykinson> US Letter, though that's basically the same
<godbyk> Well, A4 paper is taller than US letter.  So that might have explained the extra margin space on the bottom.
<IlyaHaykinson> switched to A4, same deal
<IlyaHaykinson> when you print-preview you don't have an abnormally large margin at the bottom?
<godbyk> On mine, the preview is scaling the page contents a bit -- looks like it may be scaling it to fit inside my printer's margins, but I'm not sure.
<IlyaHaykinson> humphreybc: 264 responses to the survey so far, but i want to reach closer to 1000 and include a lot more windows and mac users. i've been actively reaching out to folks i know to try to promote it to them, perhaps you can too?
<IlyaHaykinson> humphreybc: right now 83% of users are active Ubuntu users, which isn't our target audience.
<humphreybc> i'll try printing
<humphreybc> Ilya yeah I'll try again on facebook
<humphreybc> what happened to windows man?
<humphreybc> what's the link again?
<IlyaHaykinson> godbyk: i'll try actually printing this tomorrow to see what happens.
<IlyaHaykinson> humphreybc: i guess he didn't want to help spread it. either busy, or didn't want to do it for some reason.
<humphreybc> ok
<IlyaHaykinson> not having much luck -- tried reaching out to about 4 others, too, also with no effect
<godbyk> IlyaHaykinson: Cool.  Let me know how it goes.
<IlyaHaykinson> godbyk: nod
<humphreybc> odd, it doesn't want to print
<humphreybc> gives me an error
<humphreybc> i've printed stuff using my printer yesterday and it works fine
<godbyk> Once a title page has been selected, we'll need to make sure we have a US letter-sized version and an A4-sized version.
<humphreybc> it's printing some other stuff from evince fine
<humphreybc> oh maybe it's the US letter thing
<humphreybc> how do i change it to A4?
<humphreybc> I'll try printing again
<godbyk> humphreybc: at the moment, you have to edit ubuntu-manual.cls and comment out the \geometry line with letterpaper and uncomment the a4paper one, then recompile.
<godbyk> note that it will stretch the letter-sized cover page to fit the A4 paper, so it'll look funky.
<humphreybc> ah
<humphreybc> we probably should change to A4 anyway
<humphreybc> do you want to do that and then push?
<godbyk> We'll we're going to have both sizes based on the language.
<godbyk> So once we get the translation stuff going, it'll be cool.
<wolter> oh my.. not here
<wolter> i hope its not gnaa
<godbyk> ?
<wolter> gay nigger association of america
<wolter> that really exists you kjow?
<wolter> know*
<godbyk> I did not.
<wolter> sadly it does
<humphreybc> wtf wolter?
<shadeslayer> hi is anyone working on the Kubuntu Manual?
<dutchie> not yet, no
<shadeslayer> dutchie: any plans to make one?
<dutchie> if you want to, go for it
<dutchie> but I don't think anybody in the main team has any intention of doing one until the Ubuntu Manual is done
<shadeslayer> dutchie: well i want to but i need somebody to help me,cant do it alone
<shadeslayer> dutchie: why though?
<wolter> shadeslayer, we have to narrow down as much as we can to get this done right
<dutchie> well, we've got quite enough work to be going on with thjust the one prjject
<wolter> then we can spread a little more
<shadeslayer> wolter: any idea who i should talk to in order to do a kubuntu manual?
<wolter> yes, humphreybc
<wolter> but he is not here.
<shadeslayer> ok ill talk to him when he gets here :)
<wolter> Anyway, if you are thinking of something, write it down. The team will appreciate early efforts on that :)
<shadeslayer> wolter: on the wiki?
<wolter> shadeslayer, you could also leave him a memo through memoserv
<wolter> shadeslayer, if you want to, or on your computer
<wolter> shadeslayer, if you do it in the wiki be sure to make it under Blueprints/Kubuntu/
<shadeslayer> wolter: and the specs for the manual are on the wiki.. although i couldnt find the programming language im supposed to write it on
<shadeslayer> wolter: ah ok
<wolter> shadeslayer, yeah, its LaTeX
<wolter> you can read some about it in the wiki
<shadeslayer> ok
<wolter> shadeslayer, you already have bazaar?
<wolter> you could pull in the actual revision of the manual and inspect some files,  then the pdf... You'll see its very easy and doesn't even require programming knowlegde
<shadeslayer> wolter: nope
<wolter> just common sense :)
<wolter> shadeslayer, [$ sudo apt-get install bzr]
<shadeslayer> wolter: i did the docs for an app recently in docbook,just learnt as i went along
<wolter> yeah
<shadeslayer> wolter: whats the URL ill need to pull the manual?
<shadeslayer> (i know a bit of git and svn though)
<wolter> shadeslayer, as simple as lp:ubuntu-manual
<wolter> thats one of the wonders of bzr
<wolter> and working with launchpad
<shadeslayer> :D
<wolter> bzr works this way
<shadeslayer> wolter: never used bzr
<wolter> [$ bzr pull] to get the latest revision
<wolter> [$ bzr commit -m 'Your comment on your commit
<wolter> to make a commit, but not upload it yet
<wolter> [$ bzr push] to upload
<shadeslayer> ok so its saved locally
<wolter> yes, like svn
<wolter> you checkout the latest, work it, and then commit
<shadeslayer> and git too..
<dutchie> bzr is closer to git than svn
<shadeslayer> dutchie: yeah i can see that :)
<shadeslayer> all the commands are the same
<dutchie> git > bzr though IMO
<shadeslayer> oh im sorry didnt get what dutchie said about git>bzr... got disconnected
<wolter> how?
<wolter> yeah thats all he said shadeslayer
<wolter> dutchie, how?
<shadeslayer> wolter: um why does bzr want a launchpad login?
<dutchie> wolter: what, why is git better than bzr?
<wolter> shadeslayer, because you need permission to push
<shadeslayer> it just said i need to add my lp login... theyre optional
<wolter> yes dutchie
<shadeslayer> wolter: oh
<dutchie> wolter: the philosphy just seems to fit in my head better. I prefer the branching system
<wolter> dutchie, ill read about it
<shadeslayer> how big is the download
<dutchie> not much use for ubuntu/LP stuff, but it's I use it for all my projects
<wolter> shadeslayer, its small
<wolter> i don't remember how big was it, but its small
<wolter> dutchie, what other projects are you involved in?
<dutchie> wolter: stuff on http://github.com/jshholland/
<thorwil> hi wolter! how do you feel about the state of affairs regarding the title page design? do you intend to invest additional effort?
<shadeslayer> you install it via make?
<wolter> shadeslayer, no, you make it via make
<wolter> it only generates a pdf and other files
<wolter> but you just need to read the pdf
<dutchie> shadeslayer: not much point installing it
<wolter> hey thorwil, how are you doing? I will see the screenshots page
<shadeslayer> wolter: the PDF's land up in the folder run with make right?
<wolter> yes
<thorwil> wolter: i'm fine, thanks. i just think having 4 or more people add entirely independent design proposals shouldn't be continued
<shadeslayer> gah.. Need to get 265MB of archives.
<wolter> thorwil, did that guy really print out a titlepage?
<wolter> That one seems nice because it is so simple and clean
<shadeslayer> and im on a 128 kbps connection,ill probably do this after a week when im free
<wolter> shadeslayer, with [$ bzr pull lp:ubuntu-manual] ?
<wolter> Its not that big, as
<dutchie> I assume that's installing latex
<wolter> far as I know
<wolter> yeah
<thorwil> wolter: that's a photo manipulation
<shadeslayer> wolter: no the packages i need to isntall
<wolter> thorwil, a very good one :)
<wolter> shadeslayer, oh yes.. thats big
<wolter> you could leave it overnight or idk
<thorwil> wolter: and not meant as proposal, see the comment on the change
<shadeslayer> wolter: would take 3 hours to complete
<wolter> thorwil, where?
<thorwil> wolter: just click the Info link at the top
<thorwil> wolter: taken from there: "Spec work and contests isn't a path forward. Stop spec work and work with one of the dedicated individuals above. It is a blight on our culture."
<pererik87> how will the manual be distributed to the end user?
<thorwil> wolter: his blog might add helpful context: http://troy-sobotka.blogspot.com/, if you are willing to spend time on it
<wolter> thorwil, what do you mean with spec work?
<wolter> pererik87, we are still deciding on that
<wolter> pererik87, it will most likely be displayed as a link on the desktop to the manual inside Examples folder
<wolter> I would prefer Documents folder, but anyway
<pererik87> ok, because i notices a blue questionmark where i thought it was going
<wolter> But it all depends on whether we finish a nice product or not
<wolter> thorwil, I am :)
<wolter> let me read it
<thorwil> wolter: i have to admit that "spec work" made me wonder, too. it stands for speculative work
<pererik87> but i think it would be nice if the dell users or whatever got a printed version with their computer.
<wolter> spec as in not economic?
<wolter> or as in out of place?
<wolter> pererik87, well, we could talk to dell later
<wolter> but yes, that would be very nice :)
<wolter> thorwil, apple as in apple mac?
<thorwil> wolter: yes
<wolter> thorwil, so you are struggling to abandon it?
<thorwil> wolter: abandon what? i'm not struggling at all
<wolter> oh surpassing
<wolter> thorwil, is that like a book?
<thorwil> wolter: no, just a series of blog posts
<thorwil> wolter: speculative work is all work a designer does in hopes of getting a job/contract. so the designer speculates on ending up as "winner"
<wolter> oh
<wolter> i must admit i like your writing style
<thorwil> wolter: not mine. pay attention, please ;)
<wolter> were does it say its not yours?
<wolter> oh your not troy?
<thorwil> "wolter: his blog might add helpful context: http://troy-sobotka.blogspot.com/"
<thorwil> _his_ blog
<wolter> oh
<wolter> well, i guess sometimes I don't read as thorough
<thorwil> wolter: np
<thorwil> wolter: the blog author is available in ubuntu-artwork, currently, goes by troy_s
<wolter> oh
<thorwil> wolter: anyway, my thinking is that the title page design should be done with either just one designer, or a small team. in case of a team, it should be allowed to actually make decisions
<wolter> yes
<thorwil> wolter: this to avoid having people wasting their time creating proposals that go nowhere
<wolter> thats a good point
<thorwil> vish: following?
<wolter> don't think so haha
<thorwil> wolter: i wanted to discuss this with you, vish and kolorguild
<wolter> well, kolorguild appears to never connect to chis channel, or does he ever?
<wolter> vish is now offline, maybe you (or me) could research on their time zones and setup a time to talk about it
<thorwil> wolter: don't know if he uses irc at all
<pererik87> ive seen him
<pererik87> few days ago but ive seen him in here
<vish> re
<wolter> oh hey vish
<wolter> thorwil, wanted to talk about the titlepages
<vish> yeah... /me always agrees with thorwil  :)
<thorwil> lol
<wolter> ok
<wolter> so, should we here or in a sub channel?
<vish> ah not another channel :/
<wolter> ok
<thorwil> just hunted for kolorguild's email adress
<thorwil> so we 3 already agree on that there should be either a single chosen designer or a team?
<vish> yup
<thorwil> and that there need to be clear requirements, goals to achieve for the design?
<wolter> team
<wolter> yes
<wolter> lets propose some
<wolter> I say consistency with the ubuntu and manual style
<wolter> Simplicity
<wolter> or minimalism
<thorwil> wolter: i know what you mean, but all these are a bit too generic
<wolter> oh ok
<vish> hmm, maybe we need to discuss in presence of humphrey as well?
<thorwil> vish: later
<vish> k.
<wolter> agree with thorwil
<wolter> humphrey is not much of an artwork contributor actually, so i don't think it is that demanding
<vish> well didnt want to want to discuss a lot and then simply get over-ruled ;)
<vish> eitherway WFM
<wolter> yeah
<wolter> so, thorwil, any suggestions?
<thorwil> i don't want to get into much depth either. but i would start from thinking about the context of the presentation
<thorwil> the how, when and why of a user getting to see the title page
<thorwil> like for the whole manual, there should be an idea of the target audience (this tends to be hard nut)
<wolter> Ok, which would you say the target audience is?
<thorwil> next: a tone/style. possibilities could be expressed in terms of classic, academic, quirky ...
<thorwil> wolter: i guess we can rule out geeks, long-time users and children below 12 years (13, 14, ...?)
<vish> i think we can rule out classic... it was one of my suggestions earlier and humphrey didnt want ti
<thorwil> vish: where are your balls and where is your pride as designer? ;)
<wolter> hahah
 * vish tries to find if any is left ;p
<wolter> i think our target audience is this windows/mac user that got sick of nonsense and just installed ubuntu. Now he says "ok, how do I work this thing?"
<pererik87> I think the audience is noobs and we always have Ubuntu Help Center as well
<thorwil> wolter: a snippet of a scenario ... that's good
<wolter> so we agree on the target audience (vish?)
<pererik87> wolter has a point
<vish> i dont think it is.. to me the manual meant/seemed more of an introduction to Ubuntu
<wolter> but for who?
<thorwil> wolter: so our audience is not likely to pick up the manual for sheer enjoyment, it might be seen more as a tool to get past initial hurdles?
<wolter> thorwil, i think
<vish> wolter: anyone who is wondering what is Ubuntu really... the problem with the manual is it blurs the distinction of being either a help or an introduction... too much
<wolter> but it should be enjoyable too; not boring and monotonic
<wolter> vish, well, manuals are generally for help rather than introduction
<thorwil> wolter: yes, absolutely. we have to be careful with requirements one would set in any case, though. you _never_ want boring
<vish> wolter: help the user from where? where is it going to be present to actually help the user?
<vish> online? CD ?
<vish> after install?
<thorwil> this question about audience/scope is at the core of the whole project, so not something we can work out in isolation that easily
<wolter> all of those
<wolter> well, thats the idea.. that you can download it, that it will be in the live CD and hopefully remain in your documents folder after you install
<wolter> maybe even an html version of line, but I don't agree with that much, as the internet is flooded with help files
<wolter> but could be as well... who knows?
<vish> wolter: if present on the install , how is it going to differ from the sys docs then?
<pererik87> We already have Ubuntu help center and i do not see that we need two manuals on a live cd or a operating system. I say its something extra the user/salesman can print out.
<wolter> Perhaps a big cleansing has to be done, but however, I think we are taking this a bit off limits and should focus more on the artistic part of the titlepage
<vish> pererik87: exactly ;)
<wolter> vish, that is in the wiki page of the manual
<wolter> well i must say, humphrey has being asked this lots of times
<vish> wolter: i understand the justification on the wiki  :)  .. but I'm just asking how..
<wolter> but in the wiki you can find his explanation
<wolter> oh ok
<wolter> I agree though, to a certain extent, that there should be some more evident territorial definition
<wolter> But I can tell you this, since you asked that question I opened up the help center, and it covers certain things in a very shallow way
<wolter> Like the "Customizing your computer" part
<pererik87> The Help center looks like its written by a paid employee that doesen't really care if you ask me
<wolter> And I can tell you as well that every time in the past I wanted to use the help and support of ubuntu I couldn't find what I was looking for. I don't know if this was due to a poor search engine or what, but I could not
<wolter> pererik87, looks like that, yes
<pererik87> the layout is pure annoyance. you click a link and the nav bar dissapear
<pererik87> but thats really irellevant
<wolter> pererik87, i disagree on that, I think it is comfortable to navigate
<vish> wolter: so , if in the end  , if we are trying to replace the help center... we dont really need a title page... If i'm trying to get to the help , i would rather see the contents and topics than a cover page ;)
<wolter> but yes, thorwil and vish lets get back on track I say
<wolter> vish, well, the coverpage is the face of our manual.. its really important
<wolter> its all about first impressions, some say
<vish> wolter: hmm... you dont need a cover page for the purpose we are intending :s   ... the first impression for an in-place help is the contents..
<vish> wolter: if we are a separate online or pdf , we need a title page
<thorwil> wolter: i'm crafting an email, also to kolorguild. your address, please
<wolter> vish, not everybody thinks that way, some people may even limit their perception of the OS to small things like how much effort was put in the coverpage of the manual
<thorwil> vish: now you're a level deeper than the amount of change possible in the project, i think ;)
<pererik87> And its UHC isnt translated either
<vish>  ;)
<pererik87> maybe someone should contact Matthew East
<thorwil> to achieve what?
<wolter> who is he?
<pererik87> the administrator of UHC
<pererik87> last updated october 2008
<wolter> ill be out for a l-ong time
<wolter> leave me memos if you need
<jpds> pererik87: UHC?
<godbyk> jpds: Ubuntu Help Center
<jpds> Oh, I know him primarily as the ubuntu-doc guy.
<jpds> He tends to be fairly busy / idle on IRC.
<pererik87> thats why he should be happy to turn over this to uss:P
<godbyk> Hey, wolter.  Looks like I missed a fun design discussion!
<wolter> godbyk, looks like I did haha, I had to go to lunch
<godbyk> If anyone figures out what tone the manual should present, let me know so I can adjust the design accordingly. :-)
<godbyk> Perhaps the discussion should be taken to the mailing list so we avoid time-zone issues?
<pererik87> good night
<wolter> gnight
<godbyk> g'night, pererik87.
#ubuntu-manual 2010-01-20
<wolter> I think I got troy_s mad at me
<godbyk> Oh? When? How?
<wolter> Just now, I asked in the artwork channel how to change the emblem's position in an existing icon them. Next thing I know he told me to google something which didn't return relevant results, and then he just stopped talking even after I asked him something.
<wolter> Now, I have not come here to wine or get you against him, just thought it would be funny to thorwil now that he pointed me to his blog a while ago.
<wolter> But apparently hes not here anymore.
<godbyk> Ah, maybe he just got distracted or something.
<wolter> yeah, could be
<wolter> but well, I wouldn't know
<wolter> is there an agreement on how the headers should be capitalized
<wolter> ?
<godbyk> wolter: Apparently not.
<godbyk> I noticed the other day that some are sentence-cased and others are title-cased.
<godbyk> But we should decide on that and add a note to the style guide.
<wolter> yes
<wolter> I think sentence-case can be less annoying sometimes
<wolter> But I think, as this is a book written in formal english, that all titles should be in title case
<rachaelb> hi all! is there anything i can do to help with the manual?
<godbyk> 'allo, rachaelb.  Are there any chapters that you're particularly interested in helping to write?  There is a to do list of sorts here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-manual/#To%20Do%20List  (Looks like I need to scratch a couple items off that list now).
<godbyk> There are also some 'how to contribute' notes here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-manual/#Contributions
<godbyk> Otherwise, in general, feel free to poke around and see how you'd like to contribute.
<rachaelb> im just having a look now
<rachaelb> i can remember how difficult it was at the beginning to get my head around linux lol
<rachaelb> and the usual forum answer of "rtfm" isnt necessarily very helpful!
<godbyk> Good -- you can help keep us in check!
<godbyk> Sometimes it's hard to figure out what people have trouble with when they're just starting out.
<rachaelb> sometime its hard to fiure out even when youve been using it for a few years :(
<rachaelb> ok... well i've got some time on my hands for the next couple of months
<godbyk> Cool.  You can also sign up for the mailing list and hang out in this IRC channel to get ideas of where to dive in.
<rachaelb> id be quite happy to go thtough the incredibly unsexy aspects of indexing and providing a glossary if that helps
<rachaelb> i cant imagine many people would volunteer for that!
<godbyk> Heh.. probably not!
<godbyk> Luckily, it's a pretty simple thing to do (well, the mechanics of it, at least).
<rachaelb> i *turst* thats not a sexist comment :-/ lol!
<godbyk> You just edit the .tex file, and add \index{indexme} someplace and it will automatically add an index entry and page number for indexme.
<godbyk> I haven't set up the glossary yet; it's on my list of things to do.
<rachaelb> ok well its pretty late here in the UK... so i'll sign up for the mailing list and be back in a few days if thats ok
<godbyk> Sure thing!  Thanks for your help and hopefully we'll see you around.
<rachaelb> no problem - im kinda bored with answering noob questions from friends and colleagues... a decent manual for the will be a relief!
<wolter> godbyk, well, he was not mad haha, he just took a long rest.
<godbyk> wolter: Ha! Well, that's good.
<godbyk> rachaelb: I hear ya.  I have my parents, grandmother, and brother running Linux.  So if I can throw a book at them, all the better!
<rachaelb> ok im part of the team :-D
<rachaelb> well my mum is 81 and has been a complete convert for the last 4 years
<godbyk> Nice!
<rachaelb> and i read somewhere that "grandmas dont use linux".... try telling that to my mom
<godbyk> It's certainly helped with all the 'how do I get this virus off my computer?' questions.
<godbyk> My grandma uses it and loves it.
<godbyk> Especially since her grandkids can't download worms from weird websites and slow down her computer.
<rachaelb> once i set it all up for her, shes fine with it
<rachaelb> she even understands the problems associated with the *other* o/s
<rachaelb> and was thrilled when germany told people yesterday not to use ie cos of theproblems in china
<rachaelb> and was telling her firends on the phone that this didnt affect her cos she used linux
<godbyk> I think that Linux is a great solution for those who just use the Internet and email.
<godbyk> Cheaper than OS X and more secure than Windows.
<godbyk> My mom got a virus on her Windows netbook the other day.  But I've trained them not to pester me with Windows problems now.
<rachaelb> prolly 4 the best
<godbyk> If it's a Linux issue, I'll try to help.  If it's Windows, well, you're on your own!
<godbyk> (Primarily, because I haven't used Windows in such a long time that I haven't a clue how to help anymore.)
<rachaelb> its nice to find someone who will help... someimtes you go into an irc room with a legitimate question jsut to be told (basically) to f*** off and work it out for yoursel
<rachaelb> thats not the way to make *nixes user friendly
<godbyk> Definitely not.
<godbyk> I figure the more quickly I can help someone else learn how to do something, the sooner they can start teaching the next person.  That means less work for me!  :-)
<rachaelb> absolutely... ok ive sigend up for the referecing and glossary :-D
<godbyk> Cool.  If you need help getting start with it, feel free to pester me sometime.
<rachaelb> i will do - definitely
<rachaelb> how detailed is this manual going to be?
<godbyk> I'm not really sure.  I'm just helping out with the formatting and code bits, not writing anything myself at the moment.
<roinator> This is probably a silly question, but is it already written?
<godbyk> roinator: Nope, it's still being written.
<roinator> Is there some sort of "current build"?
<rachaelb> i mean while its fabulous to have anything as a beginners guide, unless it also covers non-ubuntu issues like installing codecs and how to use and install thrid party software then it will still not answer most noob questions
<rachaelb> @roinator: it would appear that there is a current version - yeas
<manualbot> rachaelb: Error: "roinator:" is not a valid command.
<rachaelb> roinator: it would appear that there is a current version - yes
<godbyk> roinator: I uploaded the latest PDF here for you: http://kevin.godby.org/private/ubuntu-manual/main.pdf
<roinator> Cheers...I'd like to contribute, but I am not sure if I can be of any use. I thought seeing what is currently done might be helpful.
<godbyk> roinator: Sure!  Feel free to poke around and if you find something you'd like to help with, dive in!
<godbyk> If you'd like to help write one of the chapters, you can find the assigned author/editor for that chapter and email him/her to discuss how you can contribute.
<rachaelb> yikes! that needs a *lot* of work
<godbyk> The chapter authors can be found under the appropriate blueprint: https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual
<godbyk> rachaelb: Yes, it does.  The project just started 2-3 weeks ago.
<rachaelb> that explains it then
<rachaelb> ok its nearly 2am here
<rachaelb> and i really, really need to get some zzzzzzz's in
<godbyk> rachaelb: Have a good night, then!
<rachaelb> night all.... and to quote a certain state governor... "i'll be back"
<wolter> godbyk, how can I link to other chapters in the standard way?
<wolter> I tried \label{ch:troubleshooting} but it didn't work
<godbyk> wolter: Use \ref{ch:troubleshooting} or \nameref{ch:troubleshooting}
<godbyk> \label{blah} creates the linked-to point.
<godbyk> \ref, \pageref, and \nameref create links that take you to that \label.
<wolter> godbyk, could you make a standard \chaplink{chapter-name}
<wolter> so that it says for example "Chapter 9: Troubleshooting"
<wolter> in bold or something
<godbyk> wolter: Sure, I can do that.
<godbyk> one sec.
<wolter> I use those a lot, and I think other writers should as well
<wolter> thanks :)
<roinator> godbyk: This looks pretty damn good.  I think I'll look into this more when I have a bit more time.  At the moment I have an overwhelming number of questions regarding the project, and I think I should make an effort to answer a few on my own before I ask any here.  Thanks for the help though.
<godbyk> roinator: No problem.  If you have more questions, feel free to ask here or on the mailing list.
<godbyk> Your best place to look for answers is currently the wiki: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-manual/
<godbyk> wolter: I just pushed the \chaplink command.
<godbyk> Using \chaplink{ch:troubleshooting} will output "Chapter 0: Troubleshooting"
<godbyk> brb
<godbyk> back
<wolter> thanks godbyk :)
<wolter> godbyk, you're amazing :)
<godbyk> heh, thanks.
<wolter> I didn't know pdfs supported links
<wolter> godbyk, i will let know to the list that you made this chaplink thing, alright?
<wolter> but also, could you make it so that you don't have to write ch: ?
<wolter> also, I see that the link only covers the chapter number and the chapter name, but clicking the preceding "Chapter" string does nothing
<godbyk> brb
 * humphreybc made a new ubuntu video today :) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=orbi31mE3r0
<godbyk> I'm back now.
<godbyk> Sorry about the delay.  Was chatting with a friend who stopped by.
<wolter> godbyk, dont worry :)
<humphreybc> so what's new in the land of the manual?
<wolter> humphreybc, the new version of chapter 5
<wolter> take a look at the pull to see if you like it more
<wolter> if not i will revert
<humphreybc> cool
<humphreybc> where did all the content go?
<humphreybc> so you changed the colours of the sections/subsections?
<wolter> to software-packaging/software-packaging-original.tex
<wolter> i didn't
<humphreybc> oh okay
<humphreybc> so what's new?
<wolter> its a complete rewrite
<wolter> undone, of course
<humphreybc> what was the reasoning for the rewrite?
<wolter> well, i just read the ubuntu help center and thought that my approach was not straight enough
<wolter> to that people that think that installing software in ubuntu is the worst part of.. ubuntu
<godbyk> wolter: Okay, if you forget the ch: prefix on the label you pass to \chaplink, it will add it for you.
<godbyk> Also, I've fixed it so that the entire string (including "Chapter") is a hyperlink.
<humphreybc> wolter: fair enough, you're the author ;)
<godbyk> I'm going to try to find a way to detect if a label exists so I can make the \chaplink command a bit smarter (i.e., not always prepend ch: if the naked label exists).
<wolter> godbyk, can i say you're awesome again?
<godbyk> In practice, however, please include the ch: prefix on chapter labels whenever you use them.
<wolter> ok
<wolter> will do then
<nisshh> hey guys
<godbyk> Hey, nisshh.
<nisshh> im just getting back to writing my chapter now
<wolter> humphreybc, how do you like my new version?
<nisshh> but first i need to know what the hell is and isnt getting included in it
<wolter> should I keep writing it, or continue with the other one?
<humphreybc> nisshh: lol
<humphreybc> fire some questions
<nisshh> kk
<humphreybc> wolter: looks good!
<nisshh> what happened to some of chapter 6 being included?
<nisshh> and is my chapter 7 now actaully chapter 8 or something?
<nisshh> also what happened to cmd and security merging?
<humphreybc> kk
<humphreybc> cmd and security aren't merged anymore
<humphreybc> your chapter 7 is still chapter 7
<humphreybc> we decided to include updating/upgrading in the last chapter of the "first half"
<humphreybc> instead of putting it in the advanced section
<wolter> nisshh, wow you've been out a whole piece of time :)
<humphreybc> haha
<nisshh> ok good i understand more or less now
<nisshh> wolter: yes thats what 4 holidays in a row does to you
<wolter> oh yes i understand haha
<wolter> it happened to me on christmas
<wolter> and then on new year
<nisshh> should i just go with whats currently in the ToC on the wiki
<humphreybc> nisshh yes
<nisshh> hehe ok
<humphreybc> Unless you think there is anyhing to add/remove
<nisshh> sure thing
<humphreybc> oh and don't make it overly detailed - we are changing sort of to a Quick Start guide, so overall we need to watch page count. And the advanced stuff is least important to a new user
<nisshh> is our irc chan working alright yet?
<nisshh> yea ok
<humphreybc> irc chan?
<nisshh> yes
<humphreybc> what do you mean?
<nisshh> i saw the message on the mailing list about changing the channel for the meeting the other day
<nisshh> due to problems with this one
<humphreybc> oh right
<humphreybc> we still dont have a logbot
<humphreybc> but MootBot is back
<humphreybc> They just left for some reason and never returned
<nisshh> yep
<wolter> humphreybc, how about ubuntulog, isn't he logging?
<humphreybc> oh
<humphreybc> didn't notice him! :P
<humphreybc> roinator, for some reason youtube replies aren't working
<humphreybc> the theme is elementary and the dock is docky :)
<roinator> ahh ok...cool
<nisshh> hehe
<roinator> I didn't know you could make docky look like that.
<humphreybc> it's not Gnome Do docky, but docky as a separate application
<humphreybc> they're splitting them up, this is the development version
<roinator> Ohhhhh
<humphreybc> it's very neat
<roinator> does it still do the gnome-do ish stuff?
<nisshh> i think only the gnome-do version of docky does that
<nisshh> the actual seperate version doesnt
<nisshh> i think...
<roinator> yeah...That would make sense, but I want a more variable appearance in gnome-do docky...so I was hoping.
<godbyk> I documented the \chaplink command on the Style Guide.
<nisshh> i need to read through all the new stuff on the styleguide now lol
<nisshh> there is ALOT
<humphreybc> roinator: It can't do the Gnome Do stuff but you can get it working with Zeitgeist and Gnome Activity Journal
<godbyk> nisshh: Yeah, and I need to add more sometime.
<humphreybc> And it has plugins like controlling banshee etc etc
<godbyk> For instance, should chapter titles use title case or sentence case?
<godbyk> How about sections and subheadings?
<nisshh> title case i reckon
<wolter> all kinds of headings should follow the same style in my opinion
<nisshh> wolter: good point
<wolter> that being title case :
<wolter> )
<wolter> as it is formal english the language we are writing in
<humphreybc> I don't see a reason why we need to capitalize every word in headings
<godbyk> I'm okay with it either way, but we should settle on one and be consistent.
<godbyk> I think that sentence case is easier to read a bit more informal than title case.
<godbyk> humphreybc: There was another discussion that took place earlier about establishing the tone of the manual.  How formal/informal should it be?  What kind of voice do we want to use?  Should it be staid and serious? Light and fun?  Quirky?
<humphreybc> Somewhere in between?
<humphreybc> We don't want to come across as Microsoft, boring and serious. But we don't want to come across as amateur. It needs to hold a "conversation" with the reader, and make them feel comfortable with what they're doing.
<humphreybc> I think the tone that I set in the Prologue and Chapter 1 is fairly good
<IlyaHaykinson_> ooh.
<IlyaHaykinson_> http://news.softpedia.com/news/Ubuntu-Manual-Needs-You-Help-132478.shtml
<IlyaHaykinson_> this really helped the survey
<IlyaHaykinson_> we're at 674 responses
<godbyk> cool
<godbyk> Did we get more Windows/Mac users this time?
<IlyaHaykinson_> getting there
<IlyaHaykinson_> 42% windows so far
<IlyaHaykinson_> 40% ubuntu
<IlyaHaykinson_> need more mac users, grr.
<IlyaHaykinson_> i already tried asking in #macosx and ##windows
<IlyaHaykinson_> several times, in fact
<IlyaHaykinson_> and asked my pal who works at Apple to spread the link
<godbyk> Have any of you read any of Kathy Sierra's blog entries or essays?
<IlyaHaykinson_> i wonder if i can download the raw data and do my own segmentation analysis, so i can see specifically mac vs windows vs linux users' perspectives
<IlyaHaykinson_> godbyk: no; link pls?
<godbyk> IlyaHaykinson: It'd be good to have the full dataset instead of just aggregate data.  Then we could do more in-depth analyses.
<godbyk> http://headrush.typepad.com/
<IlyaHaykinson_> btw, holding steady at about a third wanting the ability to print out the manual
<godbyk> A lot of what she says applies to our manual.
<godbyk> We could also publish the book via Lulu (free to publish), and people could order a printed and bound copy of it, if they didn't want to print their own.
<IlyaHaykinson_> yes, we could, and definitely think we should.
<godbyk> I see no reason why we shouldn't.
<IlyaHaykinson_> though at this point i think there is a risk we will not hit the deadline.
<IlyaHaykinson_> there are a lot of early chapters with little progress
<IlyaHaykinson_> but, thanks to you, the manual is starting to -look- professional :)
<IlyaHaykinson_> re that blog, yeah, interesting. though i feel that a lot of her advice is pretty general
<IlyaHaykinson_> not that it's necessarily self-evident, but that it's ... just good common sense. and not specific knowledge.
<godbyk> IlyaHaykinson: A lot of it is, yeah.
<IlyaHaykinson_> please digg: http://digg.com/linux_unix/Ubuntu_Manual_Needs_Your_Help
<godbyk> dugg
<IlyaHaykinson_> i can't believe how many people read the news.softpedia.com page
<IlyaHaykinson_> the link is more than half way down the page, under a Linux heading.
<IlyaHaykinson_> ah. it's got a pretty high alexa rank
<wolter> hm.. who is motang and why does he sound familiar?
<nisshh> ill be gone for an hour or two, if anyone needs me just email me instead
<wolter> it will be hard to live with docky and gnome-do as different apps
<wolter> or memoserv
<wolter> :)
<wolter> nobody uses that, but me
<IlyaHaykinson_> wolter: email works just as well, imho :)
<wolter> IlyaHaykinson_, yeah well, in my opinion i have enough emails with the ubuntu list :)
<IlyaHaykinson_> heh.
<IlyaHaykinson_> hm, survey still ticking up. seems like we're at ~12 responses per hour.
<IlyaHaykinson_> which isn't bad. it means that if it lasts (and it won't, of course), we'd be at 1000 responses within a day.
<IlyaHaykinson_> Ha! someone wants our manual to describe "applications towards the creation of giant space dinosaur robots" :-)
<IlyaHaykinson_> we better get right on it
<pererik87> most of them dont know about UHC
<wolter> pererik87, you still here?
<humphreybc> hehehe did you guys see the new artwork updates?
<wolter> humphreybc, of the coverpage?
<humphreybc> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-manual/Artwork
<wolter> well you've been off for a long while I say
<wolter> i have now
<wolter> this kolorguild guy keeps working on new and new and new and new proposals
<humphreybc> um regarding Lulu: http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1378816&page=3
<humphreybc> post $24
<humphreybc> #24 *
<humphreybc> I know nothing about it
<wolter> oh i irc-know that guy
<wolter> lol
<wolter> hes always in the #unity-coders channel i told you about
<humphreybc> right
<humphreybc> lol @ "We just made RTFM a whole lot better"
<wolter> yeah
<humphreybc> what do you guys think about KolorGuild's new proposals?
<wolter> excellent photo manip
<wolter> I think they're a bit off the style we want
<humphreybc> true
<humphreybc> but they're different, and interesting.
<humphreybc> new ideas are good :)
<wolter> well yes, thats true
<humphreybc> it's going to be soo damn hard to choose one
<wolter> but I think they're too cluttered up
<wolter> yes, indeed
<wolter> but I think everybody is going for vish's with my lynx :)
 * humphreybc is reading the questionnaire thread and the latest responses. I'm very pleased that most of what is being suggested is already being planned for the manual :)
<humphreybc> yup
<wolter> kolorguild has good ideas, but I think he needs to comply a little more with the style
<humphreybc> I think vish's could use some more work though
<humphreybc> your lynx is fantastic though wotler
<humphreybc> wolter*
<wolter> thanks :)
<humphreybc> it's too bad we can't get everyone together in a room to brainstorm
<wolter> oh, don't you use tab completion for nickks?
<wolter> yeah well, with the meeting's new time setting i think we could talk about it in a meeting
<humphreybc> oh for christ sake I didn't realise pidgin supported it till now.
<humphreybc> indeed
<wolter> humphreybc, don't you think one meeting a week is very little?
<wolter> supported what?
<humphreybc> tab completion
<humphreybc> too little?
<wolter> oh haha
<humphreybc> you mean we should have meetings more often!?
<wolter> yeah, not often enough i mean
<wolter> hahaha
<wolter> well maybe twice a weak
<humphreybc> !!
<wolter> i mean, this thing is going fast
<humphreybc> true
<wolter> but its just an idea
<humphreybc> but most things we decide on in IRC
<wolter> what are your comments on it?
<humphreybc> our team communication is amazing
<humphreybc> there are always active discussions in IRC, the mailing list is always busy, the wiki is always being changed etc and we have proper meetings once a week. I think we talk more than any other project
<wolter> I like this team a lot you know
<humphreybc> haha so do I
<humphreybc> our team is awesome
<wolter> Nobody is like that typical linux-consumed dude that tries to make everyone else look like a fool
<humphreybc> ?
<wolter> haha, i guess you haven't been in many irc channels
<humphreybc> not really
<wolter> if you go to #linux or #c channel, you'll find plenty of those
<wolter> sometimes you trigger they're anger without knowing
<IlyaHaykinson_> humphreybc: you missed it when i said it earlier, but the survey's picked up thanks to a news.softpedia.com mention and some diggs
<wolter> just saying the wrong words will do
<wolter> lol.. "some"
<wolter> like 400!
<IlyaHaykinson_> currently at 717 responses
<humphreybc> yep Ilya don't worry I scroll up and read what's been said :)
<IlyaHaykinson_> ah, nice
<humphreybc> that's amazing, how are the stats looking?
<humphreybc> any interesting trends that we haven't accounted for?
<IlyaHaykinson_> good. short summary: need to cover software installation really well; printing; wireless and other networking
<wolter> oh humphreybc, the graphics you showed in your video are based off the forum thread right?
<IlyaHaykinson_> open office for the apps
<humphreybc> wolter: yeah it was the only usage example of spreadsheet i had lying around
<IlyaHaykinson_> as soon as we hit a thousand i'll prepare a good summary
<wolter> Lol, I don't know what people don't understand about openoffice
<humphreybc> fantastic work Ilya, truly well done. :)
<IlyaHaykinson_> and post that, as well as the raw data and the site's own summary data
<IlyaHaykinson_> interestingly there's little correlation so far between which OS people use and what they want to see in the manual
<humphreybc> Well wolter I think it's more that OpenOffice is rather a large app with many settings, and it has three or more programs
<humphreybc> awesome
<IlyaHaykinson_> except some thigns. like Windows people who've never used Ubuntu don't place a lot of value on covering printing
<humphreybc> hmm that is interesting
<wolter> well, it has like 5
<IlyaHaykinson_> but people who have used it rate printing pretty high (meaning they had trouble)
<humphreybc> indeed
<humphreybc> crap
<humphreybc> what are we doing about Ch 4?
<IlyaHaykinson_> i think chapters 1, 2, and 4 are in trouble right now.
<humphreybc> chapter 1?
<IlyaHaykinson_> that's installation, right?
<humphreybc> yea
<humphreybc> that's my chapter
<humphreybc> alright maybe it's time I sent a motivational email to the ml
<IlyaHaykinson_> yup. you need to make some progress on it :-)
<IlyaHaykinson_> at the same time, i think that's an easier one
<IlyaHaykinson_> mainly because the ubuntu folks have done an excellent job making a guided installation wizard that takes care of a lot of problems.
<humphreybc> true
<IlyaHaykinson_> mainly i think you need to a) pretend that you're a windows user, with a.1) a live CD in hand, a.2) a link to ubuntu.com and a blank CD-R disk
<wolter> I could help on installation chapter
<wolter> humphreybc, would you say I should rather continue my old chap5 or develop the new one?
<IlyaHaykinson_> b) walk them through the live cd process, and then theinstallation
<IlyaHaykinson_> step by step (screen by screen)
<humphreybc> wolter perhaps help on chapter 4
<humphreybc> yup
<IlyaHaykinson_> wolter: i think you have made some great progress on chap 5...
<IlyaHaykinson_> but i think it will need a lot more content still...
<wolter> IlyaHaykinson_, with the new version of it?
<wolter> IlyaHaykinson_, yes, indeed
<IlyaHaykinson_> yeah, i think the new version is a step in the right direction
<IlyaHaykinson_> but you need to get in depth on installing software using the software center, and make that your focus
<IlyaHaykinson_> there are a lot of people in the survey talking about software installation
<IlyaHaykinson_> i don't know if it's the majority or not -- it was in the fill-in response, so it's hard to quantify -- but packages and software center etc were frequent mentions
<IlyaHaykinson_> i recommend actually walking the user through the application, pretty much screen by screen, button-click by button-click
<wolter> i think its the majority
<wolter> at least thats all i read when I look at the thread
<IlyaHaykinson_> humphreybc: chapter 4 is a big, big deal. i think you need to split it up between more like 4 people and have them start making serious progress.
<IlyaHaykinson_> wolter: i mean the questionpro.com survey, with 700 responses
<wolter> I don't know if we should provide a "In this chapter you will learn: <bullets>" in some chapters
<wolter> IlyaHaykinson_, oh
<IlyaHaykinson_> wolter: no need to have the bullets, in my opinion. they will have that with the table of contents, if they need it.
<wolter> IlyaHaykinson_, goood point :)
<IlyaHaykinson_> wolter: and people do a good job of scanning the headings even when looking at the chapter itself, anyway. people are good scrollers these days :)
<IlyaHaykinson_> in general, and i don't mean to sound as alarmist as i might come off, i think we're not on track right now. we're 20 days from our alpha deadline when we're supposed to have most content written.
<IlyaHaykinson_> i know that i've got my work cut out for me with chap3, and i -think- i'll finish or get close. but we need to be making close to a page a day progress on chapters 2 and 4 as well, for sure.
<godbyk> When I published a book through lulu.com, I didn't put an ISBN on it, so I didn't encounter problems there.
<godbyk> (Just catching up on the backlog of chatter here. :-))
<humphreybc> IlyaHaykinson, I agree. I'll finish off chapter 1 and start on chapter 4.
<humphreybc> I'll need some help thoguh
<godbyk> Do we want our screenshots to have captions?
<humphreybc> yea
<humphreybc> i think so
<godbyk> (I'm going to make a \TODOscreenshot command or similar.)
<humphreybc> we can steal stuff from the doc team wiki for chapter 4
<humphreybc> do you guys think we should split chapter 4 up into two chapters?
<godbyk> What license is the manual under?  (So I can toss together a copyright page.)
<godbyk> I'm not sure what Preferences refers to, but it doesn't seem related to hardware.
<humphreybc> Creative Commons Share Alike
<godbyk> Some of the chapter titles are a little odd, too.
<humphreybc> how do I do an internal chapter link now?
<humphreybc> meh the chapter titles can be fine tuned later
<godbyk> humphreybc: You can say \chaplink{ch:blah} and it'll print "Chapter 0: Blah"
<humphreybc> and does that link to that chapter?
<godbyk> Yeppers.
<godbyk> It's magic -- it does everything! :-)
<IlyaHaykinson_> re chapter 4... i think we can keep it as one chapter for now, since a lot of hardware and preferences go hand in hand.
<humphreybc> so I go "\chaplink{ch:learning-more} ?
<godbyk> Exactly.
<humphreybc> sweetbix
 * humphreybc hacks on chapter 1
<IlyaHaykinson_> but i suggest reorganizing the chapter a bit... i guess we can do that once we figure out who'll be writing it.
<IlyaHaykinson_> humphreybc: i suggest you don't touch chap4... between chap1 and other work on your plate, i think you've got your hands full.
<IlyaHaykinson_> for now at least.
<wolter> haha, godbyk could you make a fun-fact notecallout type of thing?
<wolter> if you all agree, of course
<godbyk> wolter: What kind of fun facts do you have?
<humphreybc> hmm yeah Ilya that is probably wise advice. Who are we going to get to write chapter 4?
<wolter> like "fun-fact: Deb packages are inherited from Debian: Ubuntu's father Linux distribution"
<godbyk> At the moment, chapter 4 sounds like a catch-all.
<wolter> well, maybe its not that important
<IlyaHaykinson_> well, let's see how people respond to your email... if there's no constructive response within 24 hrs, i would put out a call for N people to help with it.
<humphreybc> we can utilize the existing wiki docs for chapter 4
<godbyk> wolter: I'd just mention it in a parenthetical comment, probably.
<IlyaHaykinson_> some of the docs are OK. but i'm finding that a lot of the docs are not really all that helpful.
<humphreybc> we aren't using much of their content thus far
<humphreybc> true
<IlyaHaykinson_> the networking docs were kind of like "1. open this screen (detailed explanation which screen). 2. enter the correct settings. 3. click OK"
<IlyaHaykinson_> and a user would be like "wtf" to #2
<humphreybc> true
<IlyaHaykinson_> hm, the updated make file doesn't seem to notice changes
<godbyk> I haven't looked at much of the text of the manual so far, so this may be what's planned/done.. but it's probably handy to have a "How do I...?" type thing.. more task-oriented instead of application-oriented.
<IlyaHaykinson_> godbyk: for the applications, it's exactly that way
<IlyaHaykinson_> see the suggested order of the chapter at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-manual/Blueprints/DefaultApps
<humphreybc> how's image insertion going
<humphreybc> ?
<humphreybc> do we have support for that yet?
<godbyk> IlyaHaykinson: cool
<godbyk> humphreybc: What images do you want to put in?
<humphreybc> see chapter 1
<humphreybc> just as a test image
<godbyk> IlyaHaykinson: re: Makefile, yeah, it's not keyed to notice chapter changes atm.  I need to fix that.
<godbyk> In fact, I'll do that now.
<humphreybc> okay guys, tell me some cons of the LiveCD
<godbyk> humphreybc: Short answer, is yeah, you can put in images.. Just do a \includegraphics[width=\linewidth]{blah.png}
<humphreybc> for the "couple of things to keep in mind, however" part of that section
<godbyk> longer answer depends on what exactly you want. :-)
<godbyk> humphreybc: It's slow?
<humphreybc> right
<humphreybc> i've mentioned that
<humphreybc> else?
<IlyaHaykinson_> we need to do the same section planning to chap2, 4, and to some degree 5 (wolter, the new version still jumps around between the advanced (locks, apt, etc) and the core gui stuff with software center)
<humphreybc> yeah 4 is all over the place
<humphreybc> Ilya do you want to help with that
<humphreybc> ?
<IlyaHaykinson_> humphreybc: i would say the main disadvantage is that you can't save changes, and thus can't test with all the latest updates or with non-default drivers
 * humphreybc is downloading the lucid alpha 2 in test drive so he can install it
<humphreybc> okay, now, disadvantages of using Wubi?
<IlyaHaykinson_> humphreybc: i will try to take a crack at the outline tomorrow.
 * IlyaHaykinson_ never used Wubi...
<wolter> IlyaHaykinson_, so you say I should avoid talking about apt and those things?
<wolter> the subsection says its an insight, but I could get rid of it. However, i think the new users *have* to know, even if just a little, about what happens under the hod
<wolter> hood*
<IlyaHaykinson_> wolter: I wouldn't mention it at all. novices don't -need- to know, they just know that they hit the install button in the software center and there's a progress bar and the thing installs :)
<wolter> IlyaHaykinson_, hm.. ok
<wolter> I will ommit then :)
<godbyk> Okay, I've updated (and pushed) the Makefile, so that if you edit a chapter, it will regen the pdf.
<IlyaHaykinson_> maybe as a \advanced{}, during the discussion of Synaptic (which should itself be short, in my opinion, since novice users shouldn't need it very often), you can have a quick mention that there are other tools to install thigns like aptitude and apt, or something.
<IlyaHaykinson_> godbyk: thank you.
<IlyaHaykinson_> quick question
<IlyaHaykinson_> what's the italics command?
<IlyaHaykinson_> i thought it was \textem... but clearly i'm wrong
<wolter> \textit{}
<IlyaHaykinson_> ah. thank wolter
<godbyk> IlyaHaykinson: What are you using italics for?
<godbyk> If it's for emphasis, use \emph{blah}.
<wolter> so, what is the agreement on the heading format? sentence cased or title cased?
<humphreybc> Test Drive lets you install Ubuntu right? It doesn't do it for you?
<wolter> Test Drive?
<humphreybc> Test Drive, it's a development project to make testing ubuntu versions easier
<humphreybc> https://edge.launchpad.net/testdrive
<IlyaHaykinson_> ah, that's why i was thinking "em", it's the \emph.
<IlyaHaykinson_> if \emph is for italics, is there an equivalent "meaningful" command for bolding?
<godbyk> IlyaHaykinson: Nope, because bold should almost never be used.
<wolter> brb
<IlyaHaykinson_> gotcha. except in our manual, with menu and appplication names etc
<godbyk> IlyaHaykinson: Yeah, but we have our own commands for formatting those.
<godbyk> Authors should (probably) never have to use \textbf.
<IlyaHaykinson_> i know \application... is there one for menu options?
<godbyk> Yep
<humphreybc> wait
<humphreybc> fill me in on these new commands?
<humphreybc> why no \textbf?
<godbyk> Er, maybe there isn't yet. Let me look
<godbyk> So far I've made \button, \tab, \dropdown (for combo boxes I think), \nav for menus..
<godbyk> What am I missing?
<wolter> b
<godbyk> (And the formatting for those may change, right now most of them are just equivalent to \textbf.)
<wolter> godbyk, thats excellent work
<godbyk> humphreybc: Because if we want to change the formatting of all buttons, for instance, we can.
<IlyaHaykinson_> godbyk: perfect. i think you also need one for a text field
<wolter> godbyk, labels
<wolter> godbyk, and terms
<wolter> like, terms to define
<humphreybc> wait where are we using buttons?
<humphreybc> and drop down menus?
<humphreybc> this is a PDF right?
<godbyk> wolter: For terms, I think we'll incorporate it into a glossary, so I'll do something fancy there (codewise).
<godbyk> humphreybc: Just to format the *names* of buttons.
<wolter> godbyk, ok, but how should i emphasize new terms?
<godbyk> Like: Click the \button{OK} button.
<godbyk> wolter: For now, use \textit and I can fix it when I've written a new command.
<IlyaHaykinson_> wolter is right. i need to mention things like DHCP
<IlyaHaykinson_> and right now i say \textbf{DHCP}
<IlyaHaykinson_> but would be nice to say \term{DHCP}
<wolter> yeah :)
<godbyk> IlyaHaykinson: Yeah, I'll write a command to handle all that stuff.
<IlyaHaykinson_> also... let's have a \menuoption{}
<humphreybc> all of this stuff needs to be documented somewhere and the authors need to be told
<godbyk> The glossary stuff is a bit funky 'cause there was recently a new package written for that, but it's not in the TeXLive 2007 distribution (which is what you have installed in the Ubuntu repositories).
<IlyaHaykinson_> godbyk: another one: \checkbox
<godbyk> humphreybc: I'm working on a style-guide.pdf so it's not barfed all over the wiki (and because it allows for better formatting).
<IlyaHaykinson_> does one need to escape ampersands?
<godbyk> yes.
<IlyaHaykinson_> \&?
<godbyk>  Use \&
<IlyaHaykinson_> thx
<humphreybc> awesome
<godbyk> Btw, I assume most authors are non-American?  But we're writing using American-style English, right?
<IlyaHaykinson_> godbyk: this is in line with the ubuntu docs guidelines.
<godbyk> That's cool.  I was just wondering for style-guide purposes.
<IlyaHaykinson_> godbyk: another one should imho be \windowtitle{blah} which by default formats as ``blah''
<humphreybc> are we using \button just for keyboard keys or for on screen buttons as well that are clicked?
<IlyaHaykinson_> humphreybc: \button is for on-screen button controls
<godbyk> There are some details that non-Americans may be unaware of, that I can mention.  (Like punctuation and quotation marks.)
<humphreybc> what are keys?
<humphreybc> \key?
<IlyaHaykinson_> dunno if we have one. \userinput?
<godbyk> There's a keystroke package we can use that makes them look like keys..
<IlyaHaykinson_> oh goodness. i think that would look horrible.
<humphreybc> yea
<humphreybc> that's not really necessary
<godbyk> http://tug.ctan.org/tex-archive/macros/latex/contrib/keystroke/key-test.pdf
<humphreybc> can you make a command for \keystroke or something so I can use that
<godbyk> Yep
<humphreybc> cool is it going to be called \keystroke?
 * humphreybc finds himself having to use more than one workspace for the first time ever
<wolter> whats the floating text block for defining terms?
<godbyk> Just use the \notecallout[Definition]{Blah blah blah...} command for now.
<godbyk> I still have to play with some things to get the glossary and term definition stuff working.
<godbyk> humphreybc: \keystroke is good for key presses, yeah.  Like "Press \keystroke{Enter}."
<humphreybc> neat
<humphreybc> drop down boxes are?
<godbyk> \dropdown
<humphreybc> ok
<wolter> godbyk, also a \section{} thing
<wolter> to link to sections inside chapters
<IlyaHaykinson_> ok. i think i'm done for the night.
<wolter> or mention
<IlyaHaykinson_> just pushed more wireless connection stuff... i think it's time to move on to firefox
<wolter> maybe \seclink
<godbyk> wolter: k
<IlyaHaykinson_> godbyk: in the makefile, can it be chaptername/*.tex as dependencies?
<IlyaHaykinson_> for long chapters we're breaking them out as separate files per section, which means that the chapter file itself is like 5 lines long
<godbyk> IlyaHaykinson: Sure.
<humphreybc> radio buttons?
<IlyaHaykinson_> ok, l8r folks.
<godbyk> humphreybc: Oh, sure, after I just pushed! :-)
<godbyk> humphreybc: Okay, \radiobutton is there now, too.
<godbyk> And with that, I'm gonna go to bed.
<godbyk> If you have more stuff you want me to add, just note it here or email me at <godbyk@gmail.com>
<humphreybc> Do you think it's a good idea to include the "specify manual partions" or should I just say that's for advanced users only?
<godbyk> humphreybc: I'd include it.
<humphreybc> the two options "Install Ubuntu side by side and choose at each startup" or "Erase entire disk" should be satisfactory for most?
<godbyk> Especially for Windows users who want to run Windows and Linux side-by-side.
<humphreybc> but won't the option automatically do that for em?
<godbyk> humphreybc: Hmm.. Maybe.  I don't know how well the auto side-by-side option works, I guess.  That didn't exist when I started.
<godbyk> The manual option is good if they don't want to give up as much (or as little) space as the auto option would choose.
<humphreybc> godbyk, I just pushed it through but I think I broke it. Could you have a look?
<wolter> godbyk, how do i link to a section?
<humphreybc> oh wait godbyk has gone to bed
<humphreybc> crap the whole thing is fairly broke
<wolter> lol
<wolter> what did you break?
<wolter> i haven't downloaded your push
<humphreybc> wolter, is there a subsubsubsection?
<wolter> I think there is
<wolter> but thats the lowest level
<wolter> there is, but has no format
<wolter> it looks like normal text, just checked.
<humphreybc> dw fixed it
<humphreybc> i'll push again in a sec
<humphreybc> wow whoever has been working on chap 3 is doing awesome
<humphreybc> tell me what you think about the work i've done on the installation chapter
<humphreybc> dammit do you know how to separate things into a new line?
<wolter> sorry, i was busy
<wolter> what do you mean with that?
<wolter> wow, thats a big chapter
<wolter> and IlyaHaykinson is doing it as far as I know
<wolter> Now, whoever is working on chap5 is making tremendous work too :)
<humphreybc> haha
<humphreybc> i mean like a line gap
<humphreybc> for giving instructions
<humphreybc> but when you don't want to use bullet points
<humphreybc> or lists
<wolter> Still don't understand very well
<wolter> like a horizontal line?
<humphreybc> kinda
<humphreybc> just like typing something, then pressing enter twice
<humphreybc> to insert a blank line to break things up
<wolter> oh
<wolter> i think it was \blank
<wolter> I think that the author of command-line is not very fit to writing about it
<wolter> anyway, bye humphreybc, I have too sleepp
<wolter> jam session tomorrow with some friends :)
<wolter> we're going to play "horse with no name - america", presumably
<humphreybc> haha that's easy!
<humphreybc> just pushed
<humphreybc> you should pull and see the changes
<humphreybc> Wolter did you try linking to a section?
<humphreybc> Because something is broken now and it says on Page 17 which is your chapter :)
 * humphreybc emailed some feedback from Martin Owens to the team
<pererik87> was he the UHC guy
<pererik87> ?
<IlyaHaykinson> nice, the survey has 1036 respondents
<p3t3r> one question:
<p3t3r> Do we have to finish to translate this part of the manual before 11-02-10 or by this date?
<dutchie> no, not by any means
<dutchie> translate as much as you can, but at the moment, there are no hard translation deadlines
<p3t3r> thanks :)
 * dutchie goes for a shower
<wolter> hey people
<wolter> so, no activity?
<dutchie> everyone's busy writing, not chatting
<dutchie> ;)
<wolter> haha
<wolter> one can almost here the clacking of the keyboards
<wolter> or not
<humphreybc> lol
<humphreybc> See the doc team might be moving to Mallard for Lucid
<wolter> ah, thought so
<humphreybc> They were concerned about the amount of comments on the Manual blog posts etc that suggested users didn't know anything about in built help
<humphreybc> so they're trying to improve it drastically :)
<humphreybc> Even if we haven't added anything to Ubuntu via the manual, we've still inadvertently managed to overhaul the docs :P
<wolter> haha
<humphreybc> b1ackcr0w, you need to seriously start working on your chapter :)
<wolter> we will humphreybc... trust me
<humphreybc> righto wolter, good thing I can count on you! xP
<wolter> sure humphreybc
<wolter> so humphreybc, will there be any documentation in building packages from source?
<wolter> I think i have asked this already
<wolter> but just want to re-check
<dutchie> i'd say NO NO NO NO NO NO
<wolter> ok
<wolter> but i think it is worth to mention that building is *one* of the many methods in which one can get software in ubuntu
<wolter> or not
<dutchie> it's really not something we should advocate
<dutchie> people's first port of call should be the software centre, not some random website offering tarballs
<wolter> ok
<b1ackcr0w> humphreybc: understood
<humphreybc> wolter, no no
<humphreybc> no building from source :)
<humphreybc> software center software center software center
<humphreybc> there are THOUSANDS of applications available there and i'm SURE someone can find what they're after
<pererik87> SC SC SC SC SC
<humphreybc> exactly
<godbyk> Back home.  Stupid ice storms.  Ice sucks.
<godbyk> At least I didn't fall on my butt this time.
<pererik87> sudo apt-get install package1 package2 package3 --assume-yes    /did not know i could do that. Installing new programs after reinstalling is going to go alot faster next time
#ubuntu-manual 2010-01-21
<humphreybc> hi guys
<IlyaHaykinson_> hi
<IlyaHaykinson_> i'm going over the survey results right now
<humphreybc> oh fantastic
<IlyaHaykinson_> decided to call it done, for now. 1200+ responses.
<humphreybc> cant wait to check them out
<IlyaHaykinson_> argh. i enabled an advanced analytics in the tool
<IlyaHaykinson_> but apparently this thing has some bug
<IlyaHaykinson_> which caused me to get locked out of reporting
<IlyaHaykinson_> fortunately i already downloaded the excel summary
<IlyaHaykinson_> and the raw data
<IlyaHaykinson_> but still.
<IlyaHaykinson_> alright, i'm gonna go do family things for an hour. then i'll get back to the survey.
<humphreybc> haha okay sounds crazyt
<IlyaHaykinson_> nice, i can access reports again :)
<wolter> Hi thorwil
<IlyaHaykinson_> ok, i posted info on the research
<IlyaHaykinson_> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-manual/Research/SurveyJan2010
<IlyaHaykinson_> and linked to the raw data, too
<kell> Has there been any decision on material being added to mention the different versions of Ubuntu i.e. xubuntu  kubuntu??  In the installation section it would be worth while mentioning that other versions have a lower "stated" requirements.  Or is this outwith the scope of the document?
<shadeslayer> kell: um kubuntu has higher requirements imo
<kell> Sorry I wasn't thinking.  Although that is worth mentioning as well.
<shadeslayer> kell: well i did propose a kubuntu manual as well,need to talk to some people before it sees the light of the day
<shadeslayer> manualbot:
<shadeslayer> gah :P
<pererik87> I found 34 <P>'s to translate of an Kubuntu manual in launchpad for karmic koala. I don't know if its something going on there.
<shadeslayer> pererik87: <P>'s ?
<pererik87> <p> dont know the english word. column/incision    its from html: <p>text</p> <p> more text</p>
<kell05> \join #ruby
#ubuntu-manual 2010-01-22
<jmburgess> hey everyone
<jmburgess> how you doin wolter?
<wolter> hi jm
<wolter> fine and you?
<jmburgess> good doing homework
<wolter> homework as in job homework, or school homework?
<wolter> or university homework maybe haha
<jmburgess> haha both
<wolter> check this out http://imagebin.ca/img/MGaPgll.png
<wolter> brb, going to take bath
<jmburgess> thats cool what is it?
<wolter> just a logo for my computer's new name haha
<wolter> i just decided to name it today, i've delayed it for a year
<wolter> not that its very important or anything but anyway
<IlyaHaykinson> do we need a chapter, or a section, on accessibility?
<wolter> i think its a good idea
<IlyaHaykinson> probably chapter 2, then.
<IlyaHaykinson> ubuntu is not great at accessibility, by default, and so this will probably have to do.
<IlyaHaykinson> actually, i guess it's ok.
<IlyaHaykinson> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-manual/Blueprints/Hardware
<IlyaHaykinson> posting to the list about this change to chap4, and soliciting people to help
<godbyk> Anyone here who can test a shell script for me?  It's to download and install some new required packages to compile the manual.
<godbyk> I've emailed in instructions for the script to the list.  If anyone has any problems with it, feel free to email me at <godbyk@gmail.com> or leave a message here and I'll fix it tomorrow.
<godbyk> Heading to bed.
<godbyk> G'night!
<humphreybc> Ubuntu Manual now has a facebook page thanks to Walter Mendez
<humphreybc> http://www.facebook.com/pages/The-Ubuntu-Manual/266794861575?ref=ts
<humphreybc> also, Twitter: https://twitter.com/TheUbuntuManual
<humphreybc> become a fan/follow - you know you want to. Join the social revolution! muahahaha
<wolter> hey
<thorwil> hi wolter
<wolter> hey thorwil
<wolter> so have you talking with vish about the cover?
<wolter> this kolorguild guy keeps posting new art
<thorwil> wolter: not really
<thorwil> wolter: no, he only added something before he got my mail
<wolter> oh yeah i wasn't relating it to your mail
<wolter> just that he posted some new stuff
<thorwil> wolter, vish: would you prefer i send a mail to Benjamin, or straight to the mailing list?
<wolter> ml
<vish> thorwil: benjamin
<vish> thorwil: first lets hear what benjamin has to say and then we can discuss on the ml..
<thorwil> ok, so we play safe
<wolter> agree
#ubuntu-manual 2010-01-23
<humphreybc> dutchie: ping
<dutchie> !ping
<manualbot> Here I am, brain the size of a planet and you expect me to respond to a ping? How depressing.
<godbyk> Are these the only languages the manual will be translated to? https://translations.launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual
<dutchie> it will be translated to whatever languages people translate it to
<dutchie> godbyk: are you doing some sort of automation?
<dutchie> that is the list of what's been done so far
<godbyk> I ask because I need to make sure I've selected a typeface that can support all the required characters.
<dutchie> I think we've got all the languages with awkward characters there ;)
<godbyk> And I need to make sure that the LaTeX packages we're using (just babel, so far) are aware of those languages.
<dutchie> greek, chinese, cyrillic...
<godbyk> dutchie: That covers the common ones, yeah. :)
 * dutchie updates the translations
<godbyk> Also, to the graphic designers and/or humphreybc: Did we figure out the audience, context, and tone yet?
<humphreybc> for the title? nope. I haven't had much time, title page aint high on my priorities at the moment
<humphreybc> Audience = new users, context = manual, tone = soft and welcoming?
<humphreybc> I'm not quite sure what Thorsten is actually asking for
<godbyk> Well, those questions affect the interior design of the manual, as well.
<dutchie> humphreybc: you pinged about 20 hours ago?
<humphreybc> dutchie: oh yeah I was just going to ask if you knew how to set up a planet
<dutchie> I've never done one, but I can't imagine it being difficult
<godbyk> humphreybc: If you think of how the books you read look on the inside, it varies depending on the tone you want to set.
<humphreybc> godbyk: they do. I don't have a problem with the current style/tone.. I think it looks good. We can discuss this stuff next weekend in the meeting
<godbyk> Reference manuals don't use handwritten-style fonts, but a quirkier getting-started guide might.
<humphreybc> I don't think handwritten font is a good idea :P
<humphreybc> The font you're using now looks good, although maybe a Sans-serif might be a better choice. It gives a good balance between formal in and informal without being too amateur looking, if you know what I mean
<humphreybc> How soon must you know what font we're going to use for the final release?
<humphreybc> dutchie: Planet Ubuntu Manual?
<dutchie> do we have a domain?
<humphreybc> nope
<godbyk> humphreybc: It'd be nice to get it selected earlier rather than later, because other design elements depend on it.
<humphreybc> perhaps it would be best to fire some proposals at the mailing list then. Because obviously there are certain fonts we can use, right?
<humphreybc> dutchie: I could host it on my server if you walk me through setting it up. domains are about $40, I don't mind paying for one that much
<humphreybc> Either that or you could use your VPS
<dutchie> $40?
<dutchie> that's quite a lot
<humphreybc> $40 NZD to buy a domain
<godbyk> dutchie: I was thinking that, too.  I get mine for US$10.
<godbyk> (not sure what the USD-NZD exchange rate is, though.)
<dutchie> my .co.uk's about Â£2.50 for 3 years or so
<humphreybc> wow
<humphreybc> perhaps it would be cheaper for one of you guys to get it
<dutchie> NZ must be one of those countries with dreadfully expensive registrars
<humphreybc> only if you want though
<humphreybc> Anything IT-related in NZ is hugely expensive
<humphreybc> what sort of domain would we want
<humphreybc> ?
<dutchie> .org?
<dutchie> do we really need a domain?
<humphreybc> how else could we do it?
<dutchie> we could just use a subdomain off one of our personal ones
<humphreybc> well that would be better
<humphreybc> I've got www.interesting.co.nz
<dutchie> ubuntu-manual.interesting.co.nz/planet?
<humphreybc> I don't mind hosting it on my server, but it's only local at the moment - and i'm not sure how fast our upload speeds would be across the world. Although we probably don't need blazingly fast speeds for a planet
<humphreybc> or even just planet.interesting.co.nz ?
<dutchie> you don't have to host it even if it's on your domain
<humphreybc> Oh neat, so you could host on the VPS?
<dutchie> with a bit of DNS fun :)
<humphreybc> cool. Who has blogs that we can aggregate? mine, yours, godbyk, IlyaHaykinson, vish, jmburgess - you guys got blogs?
<godbyk> Erm, sure: http://kevin.godby.org/
<godbyk> I should write more. :-/
<dutchie> screw you, gnome-shell
<dutchie> shall we do it then?
<humphreybc> dutchie, we shall
<humphreybc> and yeah, gnome-shell.. ugh i tried that the other day, crashed my computer. i was like COOL
<dutchie> heh, planet perl is run on a python based planet system
<humphreybc> what do you need to know from me re: the domain stuff?
<humphreybc> hahaha
<dutchie> I'll get back to you when I've got it working
<humphreybc> gnarly :)
<dutchie> http://planet.joshh.co.uk
<humphreybc> that was fast
<dutchie> :)
<dutchie> give me some more RSS feeds
<humphreybc> k hang on one sec
<dutchie> and a css file
<humphreybc> http://humphreybc.wordpress.com/category/linux/
<humphreybc> you can grab the feed from there for now
<humphreybc> i'll make another category for the manual
<godbyk> http://kevin.godby.org/ nothing manual- or ubuntu-specific there yet, though.  mostly hci and typography stuff.
<dutchie> feed link/
<dutchie> s|/|?|
<dutchie> ah, nm found one
<humphreybc> try this instead: http://humphreybc.wordpress.com/category/ubuntu-manual/
<humphreybc> i'm not sure what the feed is for that
<humphreybc> http://humphreybc.wordpress.com/category/ubuntu-manual/feed maybe
<humphreybc> let me know when you've added it and i'll try a test post
<dutchie> it should pick up the old ones
<dutchie> yep, it has
<humphreybc> oh swell
<dutchie> anybody who fancies themselves at web design can send me a CSS file
<humphreybc> haha it's been ages since I did CSS
<humphreybc> I don't have time at the moment, got two exams on tuesday I really am under prepared for
 * dutchie will throw together something for now
<dutchie> humphreybc: do you want to aim planet.interesting.co.nz at it then?
<humphreybc> sure i'll give that a shot
<dutchie> how is the DNS done?
<godbyk> I'm headed over to a friend's house to hang out with his kids.  I'll be back in a few hours if anyone needs anything from me.
<humphreybc> ok cool
<humphreybc> dutchie at the moment my domain is registered with freeparking.co.nz, the DNS servers are ns.freeparking.co.nz and ns2.freeparking.co.nz
<humphreybc> the domain interesting.co.nz is forwarded to humphreybc.wordpress.com
<dutchie> can you tell them to forward planet.?
<humphreybc> I can't see an option for sub domains, but I can email them
<dutchie> yeah, have a go at that :)
<humphreybc> so where do I want it to be redirected? planet.joshh.co.uk?
<dutchie> yeah
<humphreybc> okay well apparently there is a guy working sundays to respond to emial
<humphreybc> so we'll see
<IlyaHaykinson_> i just received a copy of the manual that came with Windows 95.
<IlyaHaykinson_> i remember it was quite revolutionary at the time
<humphreybc> hehe
<IlyaHaykinson_> because they squeezed it into 95 pages
<humphreybc> does 7 come with a manual?
<humphreybc> is it 7 pages long?
<IlyaHaykinson_> hm, i don't know. don't have a box for 7. but i think even XP didn't have a manual.
<IlyaHaykinson_> just a three-fold thingie that held the CD
<humphreybc> The manual for Windows 2000 would have taken a while to write.
<IlyaHaykinson_> and had _some_ instructions for installing
<IlyaHaykinson_> most help these days is online, or in the form of stand-alone books.
<IlyaHaykinson_> but the Win95 manual is interesting.
<IlyaHaykinson_> i'll study it some more, to see if some of the lessons are applicable.
<IlyaHaykinson_> one thing that's funny is how little it talks about internet connectivity
<humphreybc> ha
<humphreybc> shows how much stuff has changed
<IlyaHaykinson_> how much it required from users, at the time (the pre-installation instructinos talked about backing up files mentioned in autoexec.bat and config.sys... can you imagine ppl following those kinds of instructions now?)
<IlyaHaykinson_> and how images and videos are barely mentioned (nobody had digital cameras, really)
<humphreybc> dutchie, how much do you pay for your VPS/
<IlyaHaykinson_> or how CD-ROMs are barely mentioned, and of course no mention of burning disks :)
<humphreybc> heh, interesting stuff
<IlyaHaykinson_> btw, you saw my use of the Firefox help docs?
<IlyaHaykinson_> it's requiring a bit of editing, but it's a good structure and it'll work for our needs
<humphreybc> haven't yet, will check it now
<IlyaHaykinson_> plus the license is compatible
<dutchie> humphreybc: Â£80/year
<humphreybc> how much space do you get?
<dutchie> http://bitfolk.com/plans.html bottom spec :)
<humphreybc> check out the pricing here :O http://www.freeparking.co.nz/hosting/vps
<dutchie> wow
<humphreybc> 4GB space INCLUDING the OS, 10GB a month traffic... for $70 NZD a _month_
<humphreybc> expensivvvvvvvve
<humphreybc> it would be cheaper to host on a home server and then just get a better internet plan
<humphreybc> dutchie, do you want to email me the CSS file for the planet of what you have so far and i'll have a play
<humphreybc> study = meh
<dutchie> http://planet.joshh.co.uk/planet.css
<dutchie> <-- worst person in the world at web design
<humphreybc> nice CSS!
<humphreybc> lol
<IlyaHaykinson_> i think we need more writers.
<IlyaHaykinson_> i got three people to volunteer on Chapter 4
<IlyaHaykinson_> of which one is already writing chapter 7
<humphreybc> what can I use in Ubuntu to preview CSS?
<IlyaHaykinson_> one has intermediate english skills
<dutchie> a browser?
<IlyaHaykinson_> and one has intermediate linux skills
<dutchie> IlyaHaykinson_: between them, they're fine :)
<IlyaHaykinson_> we're 17 days from alpha, i think we need more than that.
<IlyaHaykinson_> more than two people, basically
<IlyaHaykinson_> i'm going to put out an invitation to the technical writing mailing list... maybe someone wants to pad their CV and help out
<humphreybc> god it's been so long since I wrote CSS
<humphreybc> Ilya, that sounds like a plan
<dutchie> humphreybc: I'm pretty sure that you can use firebug or some such to apply custom CSS to a webpage
<humphreybc> i'll give it a go
<humphreybc> what's the name of the header text?
<humphreybc> .headertext or something
<humphreybc> ?
<dutchie> look at the HTML source
<humphreybc> dont worry firebug is exactly what i want :)
<humphreybc> just like dreamweaver :P
<IlyaHaykinson_> anyone have Firefox without any tab extensions installed?
<IlyaHaykinson_> can you tell me if the last tab is closeable, by default?
<humphreybc> so wait, dutchie just to remind me - if I want to attach a CSS style to h1, is it just .h1 { stuff } ?
<IlyaHaykinson_> humphreybc: H1 {stuff }
<IlyaHaykinson_> .h1 applies to anything with <... class="h1">
<IlyaHaykinson_> you could also have <h1 class="foo">blah</h1>   and then have a class .foo { stuff} which applies to anything with class="foo", or have H1.foo { stuff} which applies only to H1 tags with a class of foo.
<IlyaHaykinson_> and, indeed, because CSS is _cascading_ stylesheets, you can have H1 {stuff}, and .foo {stuff}, and H1.foo {stuff} and depending on the order they'll all apply
<humphreybc> how do i tell an image to live above text, instead of being in line?
<IlyaHaykinson_> above the text? put it in its own <div>
<IlyaHaykinson_> <div><img .../></div>
<humphreybc> and to align it in the center?
<IlyaHaykinson_> apply style to the div, { text-align: center; } i think
<humphreybc> neat
<IlyaHaykinson_> *sigh* the Firefox guide copy is helpful, but still requires a lot of touch-up.
<humphreybc> anyone know how to export the changes out of firebug into a CSS file?
<IlyaHaykinson_> they're not very exact (they don't get all the menu item capitalization right)
<IlyaHaykinson_> sometimes too colloquial in their language
<IlyaHaykinson_> and often just don't give enough context to the action being performed
<IlyaHaykinson_> still, it saves about 70% of the work.
<IlyaHaykinson_> humphreybc: copy/paste? not sure, i rarely do CSS stuff in firebug, mainly I use the network tab
<humphreybc> see copy and paste works fine for the editing bit but when you do the whole "click on stuff" to change it, for some reason it doesn't send your changes through to the editing bit
<humphreybc> hard to explain
#ubuntu-manual 2010-01-24
<humphreybc> how the hell do i export :S
<humphreybc> dutchie, try these
<humphreybc> sending you the files now... may not work over IRC
<humphreybc> ill email em
<humphreybc> got a reply about thingy that ill forward too
<humphreybc> whats ur email?
<humphreybc> dutchie ping
<IlyaHaykinson_> alright, committed a bunch more firefox copy.
<IlyaHaykinson_> why do i feel like i'm writing a lot more than others?...
<IlyaHaykinson_> we've really only had me, you, and wolter submitting writing recently
<humphreybc> yeah i know
<humphreybc> i think ryan has almost finished his chapter, he might just be keeping it locally
<IlyaHaykinson_> which chapter? 2?
<IlyaHaykinson_> ok, if he's almost finished, i think you should have him commit what he has.
<humphreybc> i think 7
<IlyaHaykinson_> ah, ok.
<humphreybc> dutchie ping ping ping :)
<humphreybc> Is anyone here good with Gimp? All I want to do is get a transparent background version of ubuntumanual192.png from the "Team images" folder int he branch
<humphreybc> to use on the planet
<humphreybc> I could do it in photoshop using magic wand but I have no idea about the gimp
<humphreybc> and i dont have it installed
 * IlyaHaykinson_ posted to the techwr-l mailing list about looking for technical writers to help out.
<humphreybc> IlyaHaykinson, just looking at the stuff in your chapter, and what you've got planned. That chapter is going to be massive - perhaps it's too much detail?
<IlyaHaykinson_> well, people did ask for a lot of detail on web browsing.
<humphreybc> that is true
<IlyaHaykinson_> and, well, it's a manual, right? we've got to tell people how to use the tools, nto just say "well, use Firefox"
<humphreybc> how many screenshots are you thinking of having?
<IlyaHaykinson_> i'm hoping not too many, and not to have full-screen ones if we can avoid it.
<humphreybc> okay cool
<IlyaHaykinson_> i.e. just zoom in on the area being described, and only when it's not clear
<humphreybc> yeah well you can use shutter to take screenshots of individual windows
<humphreybc> I presume josh has gone to bed
<IlyaHaykinson_> i think we'll want to centralize the screenshotting to just a few peole.
<IlyaHaykinson_> people
<IlyaHaykinson_> so that we a) start with a consistent environment
<IlyaHaykinson_> b) apply a similar process to all images
<IlyaHaykinson_> maybe once we get closer, we can designate someone our image editor
<IlyaHaykinson_> and have a few ppl use the same virtualbox install to take the screenshots
<IlyaHaykinson_> re the Gimp: there is a magic wand there too (the fourth icon in the toolbox in the first row)
<IlyaHaykinson_> there's also Colors > Color to Alpha...
<IlyaHaykinson_> the magic wand picks up too much white, though, including stuff from the book in the image
<IlyaHaykinson_> the Color to Alpha makes the background of the book translucent too.
<IlyaHaykinson_> so i don't know if it accomplishes the same thing. i'm not at all familiar with the gimp
<IlyaHaykinson_> alright, i'm going to go. ttyl.
<humphreybc> wolter ping
<wolter> hey humphreybc
<humphreybc> could you do me a favour?
<humphreybc> I need a transparent png version of /ubuntu-manual/Team Images/ubuntumanual192.jpg
<humphreybc> I don't have gimp installed or photoshop
<humphreybc> and i don't know the equivalent magic wand thing in gimp
<humphreybc> wolter: ?
<humphreybc> im gonna get something to eat
<humphreybc> if you could do that for me and email me it that'd be great
<humphreybc> it's for the planet
<wolter> humphreybc, ok i will
<humphreybc> wolter i'm just pushing thru bzr with the planet stuff in it
<humphreybc> you can find the image under /ubuntu-manual/Planet Stuff/images/
<wolter> ok
<humphreybc> Just overwrite it with a transparent version
<humphreybc> and if you know any CSS or HTML, feel free to edit the files there
<wolter> nice
<wolter> humphreybc, it may look a little nasty, if i use magic wand
<wolter> Can I remake the icon?
<humphreybc> sure
<wolter> If you could find me the book
<wolter> Or I could make one from 0
<wolter> hey vish
<humphreybc> http://image.guardian.co.uk/sys-images/Books/Pix/pictures/2008/07/18/Open-Book460_276.jpg
<wolter> vish is awesome with icons, i presume
<humphreybc> I just pushed it through
<humphreybc> we need a new set of icons
<humphreybc> and a favicon .ico for the planet
<humphreybc> IlyaHaykinson: I pushed through a new branch revision with the Planet CSS and HTML etc under /Planet Stuff. Feel free to take a look at the CSS and modify it as you wish.
<humphreybc> right im grabbing something to eat
<wolter> humphreybc, whats the link to the planet
<wolter> i will remake both logos to give them a transparent background
<humphreybc> cool, i think the big one already has one
<wolter> no
<wolter> but i'd be happy to tweak your css
<humphreybc> /home/benjamin/Manual/ubuntu-manual/Team images/manuallogo.png is transparent
<humphreybc> sure go for it, it's been years since i did any CSS so it looks fairly crappy at the moment :)
<humphreybc> stuff like hyperlink styles, a favicon, horizontal rules between posts (i'm not so sure about that border around posts)
<humphreybc> all that stuff needs to be done
<humphreybc> more crap in the sidebar, maybe change the colours, hackagotchis (the images of the people, like on Planet Ubuntu)
<humphreybc> do you have blog wolter?
<ianto> humphreybc:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Templates#Planet
<ianto> It's all in Romanian the template but that can be easily translated and I can help with that where possible ;)
<ianto> Basically created http://planet.ubuntu.ro
<humphreybc> oh ianto, groovy!
<ianto> The builder image can be replces on a per user basis
<humphreybc> cheers for that ianto, it's going to look great!
<humphreybc> ianto, how do I send my feed as a test?
<ianto> humphreybc:  Read https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LoCoCreatingPlanet
<humphreybc> blah that's too complicated for me xD besides I may as well leave it for dutchie to do
<humphreybc> since he's hosting it
<ianto> You might wish to think of registering a domain then ;)
<humphreybc> well we've got planet.interesting.co.nz
<humphreybc> which is a subdomain of my site
<humphreybc> so that will do for now :)
<humphreybc> it'll be quite cool with all those links up the top
<humphreybc> we can have that as our home page really
<humphreybc> maybe i'll do manual.interesting.co.nz
<humphreybc> dutchie, "manual.interesting.co.nz" ?
<wolter> hey humphreybc
<humphreybc> heya
<wolter> i am sorry, I had to go to dinner
<wolter> I will handle that job now
<humphreybc> what's a good web development program for ubuntu?
<wolter> gedit :)
<humphreybc> oh you dont need to worry anymore :)
<wolter> no?
<humphreybc> lol
<wolter> how come?
<humphreybc> nup take a look at the branch
<wolter> ok
<humphreybc> pull the latest revision
<humphreybc> is there anything like dreamweaver?
<ianto> Coincidentally Dreamweaver just finished installing for me and no there is not
<humphreybc> dreamweaver under wine?
<ianto> Under WinXP
<wolter> oh my god, its looking awesome
<humphreybc> hmm
<humphreybc> yeah thanks to ianto :)
<ianto> No problem
<humphreybc> he gave me a templatee
<wolter> hey, humphreybc, using those applications really makes your code big and adds unecessary stuff to it
<humphreybc> hmm
<wolter> oh, ianto thats a template?
<wolter> Really, I can handle the html magic, trust me.
<wolter> What is missing?
<humphreybc> oh nothing
<humphreybc> this is just for myself
<wolter> well, what do you need dreamweaver for?
<humphreybc> I'm thinking in the future to combine my photography website and my blog into one main website under the domain interesting.co.nz and then host it on my own server. I'd have to write my own website I think.
<wolter> humphreybc, yes, i would definitely do that
<wolter> maybe a benjaminhumphrey.com.nz
<humphreybc> then i could ditch the long benjaminhumphreyphotography.com lol
<wolter> or benhumphrey
<humphreybc> meh interesting.co.nz is a good domain name
<humphreybc> i'll just keep that :)
<wolter> oh yes.. you totally could haha
<ianto> ubuntu-manual.org ;)
<humphreybc> although....
<wolter> oh yeah. co.bz sorry, and 'n' slipped out :)
<humphreybc> I use weebly to create my photography website, because it's easier for flash galleries
<humphreybc> I can export websites out of weebly...
<wolter> weebly?
<humphreybc> yeah google it
<humphreybc> it's an ajax based drag n drop website development tool
<humphreybc> it's fantastically simple to create websites and it's feature rich, plus they host it and everything
<wolter> yeah did
<humphreybc> so I could change that site to reflect my new site, then i'd just have to insert my wordpress blog somehow
 * wolter is hating badly the drums in powermetal
<wolter> humphreybc, i think it would be kindof easy
<humphreybc> hmm
<wolter> brb
<wolter> humphreybc, is your site hosted in some <url>.weebly.com ?
<humphreybc> nope
<humphreybc> i bought the domain name www.benjaminhumphreyphotography.com
<humphreybc> but i thiiink i have a better plan. I've been looking at internet plans over here and it would be very expensive to actually host everything on my own server... so I think I'll move my blog into weebly, hopefully there is a way to integrate wordpress into weebly. Then i'll just change the domain name of the weebly site to interesting.co.nz and wallah, all done!
<humphreybc> so all my stuffs are in one place
<wolter> yeahy
<wolter> yeah*
<humphreybc> Then i can just have on my menu something like: About Me, Resume, Photography, Blog, Admin
<humphreybc> wolter, how do you add a border around images in gimp? like photoshop's "stroke" ?
<wolter> hm
<wolter> you cant
<wolter> well, you do
<wolter> select the object (control+click on layer)
<wolter> humphreybc, is your object on a transparent background?
<wolter> If so, right-click and select "Alpha to selection"
<humphreybc> nevermind i think i have done without it
<humphreybc> i'll show you later tonight
<humphreybc> it's for my site
<wolter> Then, go to the [Select] menu and choose [Grow]
<wolter> oh well
<wolter> can i see it?
<wolter> humphreybc, how do you like this icon? http://imagebin.ca/img/vAOOaZ6h.png
<wolter> its a blueprint icon
<wolter> humphreybc, how are we handling time?
<humphreybc> hmm?
<humphreybc> that's a cool blueprint icon
<humphreybc> im just gonna go have some dinner, back in about 30 mins
<wolter> ok
<godbyk> I'm back for a few hours.
<godbyk> Looks like I missed a bunch of bzr activity.
<humphreybc> hi is anyone around?
<humphreybc> i just want to see if my router is forwarding properly
<godbyk> humphreybc: I'm here.
<godbyk> If you still need help.
<humphreybc> hmm i can't seem to get it to forward... try going here: http://118.93.48.233/
<humphreybc> So as I understand it, I have my server working perfectly on our local network. To forward it on the net, I just have to open up port 80 on the router and add the local IP as the server one... 192.168.1.2
<humphreybc> then go to the external IP: http://118.93.48.233/
<humphreybc> but lots of people have said it isn't working, it just times out
<godbyk> It looks like it's going to timeout, yeah.
<godbyk> When you're testing it locally, are you testing from another computer on your home network (to go to 192.168.1.2)?
<humphreybc> I'm testing it from my laptop
<humphreybc> it works for http://118.93.48.233/
<humphreybc> and also 192.168.1.2
<humphreybc> this is my router: http://portforward.com/english/routers/port_forwarding/Huawei/EchoLife-HG520s/Echolink.htm
<humphreybc> and those are the instructions...
<humphreybc> I didnt use 5198 5200 tho
<humphreybc> I used 80 and 80, TCP
<humphreybc> If i use 5198 and 5200, then I can't even get to http://118.93.48.233/ locally
<godbyk> Right, you should use port 80 (tc0) for both local and remote port numbers (start and end).
<godbyk> do you have to restart your router for it to take effect?
<humphreybc> okay i've done that. no I don't think I do....
<humphreybc> should i set protocol to All or TCP?
<godbyk> All should work, but TCP is the only one required.
<humphreybc> HTTP_Server TCP 80 80 192.168.1.2 80 80
<humphreybc> those are the settings
<humphreybc> Application Protocol Start Port End Port Local IP Address Start Port(Local) End Port(Local)
<godbyk> that looks right
<godbyk> on the server, you can run 'netstat -l' and it'll show you what ports it's listening on.
 * humphreybc ssh's into the server
<godbyk> make sure the local address is listening on port 80 and the foreign address is *:*
<godbyk> local address should have *:80 or *:http
<godbyk> also make sure you don't have a firewall running on the server that's disallowing incoming connections to port 80.
<humphreybc> http://pastebin.com/m1b24982d
<humphreybc> do i need a static IP with my ISP?
<godbyk> So the www port is only listening on ipv6 but not ipv4.
<godbyk> at least, that's what it looks like.
<godbyk> the static IP would only mean that the 118.93.48.223 never changes.
<godbyk> so that's a separate issue.
<humphreybc> righto
<godbyk> right now it looks like your web server isn't listening on the ipv4 tcp port 80.
<humphreybc> i have a static ip on the server for 192.168.1.2
<humphreybc> but i can connect to it locally over 118.93.48.223 okay why?
<godbyk> I'm not sure.
<humphreybc> hmm. should i try restarting the router?
<godbyk> let me log into another of my boxes here and see what it says.
<humphreybc> cool cool
<godbyk> mine lists it as: tcp        0      0 *:www                   *:*                     LISTEN
<godbyk> so yeah, it looks like your web server isn't listening on the ipv4 address.
<humphreybc> hmm
<godbyk> are there any useful errors in /var/log/apache2/error.log?
<godbyk> (I'm assuming you're using Apache..?)
<humphreybc> just favicon errors
<godbyk> restart apache and then check the log again.
<humphreybc> http://pastebin.com/m78304f16
<humphreybc> i'll reboot the server
<godbyk> apache config logs usually only show at startup
<godbyk> k
<godbyk> you may have to restart the router, too.  I'm not sure what has to be done for the new route to take effect on your router.
<humphreybc> okay be back in a sec then
<humphreybc> hi thorwil
<thorwil> hi humphreybc
<humphreybc> design :)
<humphreybc> i read over the logs, and agree with what you say
<humphreybc> and i read that blog post too
<humphreybc> sounds good. Now i'm not really much of a design person, i don't know much about publications either. So i don't think i'm really the best person to come up with the "tone" etc
<thorwil> you're not supposed to
<thorwil> you should be the moderator (or one of the moderators)
<humphreybc> cool cool
<humphreybc> well i think you guys should work as a design team. afaik you are all fairly decent designers, so i'm sure you can work on the manual design and come up with something sweet. you don't need me to okay stuff or tell you what to do :)
<thorwil> humphreybc: excellent
<humphreybc> that sound okay?
<thorwil> humphreybc: however, it is still up to you to publicly declare that this is the course to go
<godbyk> Hey, thorwil, can I get in on that discussion, too?  I think the cover design and interior design should go hand-in-hand.
<humphreybc> you seem to be the most outgoing person in the team, so i'll stick you in charge of the design team, and you four can work away at your leisure
<humphreybc> yeah godbyk that's a good plan
<thorwil> godbyk: yes, very much so
<godbyk> cool, thanks!
<humphreybc> so the design team does artwork/title page and body style?
<thorwil> humphreybc: i think defining the audience and strategy is not for the design team alone
<humphreybc> true, I'll put that on the agenda for this saturday
<humphreybc> but, judging from the irc logs, you have a fairly good idea of the target audience - no?
<humphreybc> obviously we're not going to have a crayon font and bright colours, nor are we going to use 12pt black times new roman for the entire publication. so we can rule out those two target audiences, young and boring :P
<thorwil> humphreybc: not sure about it. every single writer should have an idea of the strategy of the manual, what kind pf publication it is, made for what kind of people
<godbyk> I agree.  I think we should be clear about the style/voice used.  That'll play out in the design as well.
<thorwil> vish: read ^
<godbyk> Where do we fall on the formal/informal spectrum, for instance?
<humphreybc> that's what the style guide is supposed to be for
<humphreybc> i think jmburgess was writing it
<humphreybc> we did discuss the target audience in the very first meeting
<godbyk> Ah, I missed the first meeting. :)
<humphreybc> i think there is a summary of that on the meetings page... but yeah, we need to definitely narrow it down to a set target audience. We can do that in the next meeting, if that's all good?
<thorwil> yes
<humphreybc> cool! i'll add it to the agenda
<thorwil> godbyk: is there documentation about the thoughts and choices that led to the current fonts and internal layout?
<godbyk> thorwil: Not really.
<godbyk> A lot of it still on my TO DO list to get updated.
<vish> ha , finally humphreybc is here ;)
<humphreybc> yup
<vish> humphreybc: isnt the manual's purpose supposed to be an intro to Ubuntu?
<humphreybc> thorwil: the current layout basically stems from my brain last year :)
<humphreybc> sort of
<vish> humphreybc: yeah , i imagined so too , but wolter confused me a bit the other day ;)
<thorwil> if one walks into a bookstore and picks up a whatever-software manual, it's quite likely to be huge thing
<thorwil> not calling our manual "the * manual" on the cover is still open, right?
<vish> humphreybc: yeah , what/when the manual going to be christened?
<humphreybc> the whole title is still open to debate :P
<humphreybc> i actually did an interview with omgubuntu.co.uk today that Joey should post this wek
<humphreybc> week*
<humphreybc> it should have lots of information not just for joe blogg but also you guys
<vish> humphreybc: hmm , wouldnt it be better if the members got info from you first than from a blog on the web? ;)
<humphreybc> lol yes
<humphreybc> buuuuutt i am just saying that because i worded my answers carefully
<humphreybc> so hopefully it will make more sense
<humphreybc> hehe
 * thorwil adds manual planet to feed reader
<humphreybc> wait is the manual planet up?
<humphreybc> oh
<humphreybc> dutchie hasn't updated it yet :)
<humphreybc> dutchie: get out of bed
<humphreybc> dutchie: :)
 * thorwil -> lunch
<dutchie> humphreybc: morning :)
<humphreybc> dutchie: just setting up my server to work on the net with godbyk - humphreybc.homeip.net
<humphreybc> be back in a sec, gotta reboot router
<dutchie> ah, fun :)
<dutchie> rigel.joshh.co.uk is this laptop :)
<humphreybc> dutchie, check out the bzr branch
<humphreybc> the planet stuff is all ready to go
<humphreybc> and freeparking guy has set up manual.interesting.co.nz to point to planet.joshh.co.uk
<dutchie> sweet
<humphreybc> it will probably all roll over tomorrow
<dutchie> hmm, rev 161 doesn't want to build for me
<humphreybc> odd
<godbyk> I think someone reverted a bug fix I put in.
<godbyk> one sec
<dutchie> also, manual.interesting.co.nz doesn't resolve
<humphreybc> yeah dutchie he said it might take 48 hrs
<godbyk> changes pushed.  it should work now.
<godbyk> let me know if you still have problems compiling, dutchie.
<dutchie> ah, ok
<godbyk> Okay, guys.  I'm off to bed.  I'll be back in about 8 hours, I imagine.
<humphreybc> dutchie: http://humphreybc.homeip.net/stats.php
<humphreybc> nifty PHP file that shows some cool stats
<humphreybc> unfortunately I couldn't get hddtemp to work as it requires root permissions to run for some reason
<dutchie> there we go, CSSS etc appklied
<humphreybc> Oo lovely
<humphreybc> can we change the names of the feeds to our actual names and get hackagotchis?
<humphreybc> and i suppose you looked at that page about setting up a cron job to refresh the feed?
<dutchie> yes
<dutchie> and yes
<humphreybc> haha cool, well my hackagotchi is somewhere
<humphreybc> probably my ubuntu forums profile is best
<humphreybc> i shall find it
<humphreybc> http://ubuntuforums.org/member.php?u=785254
<humphreybc> oh
<humphreybc> it's tiny
<humphreybc> i'll just email you it :)
 * humphreybc has to revert to firefox as a backup because chrome "can't load the default profile" :S
<dutchie> I'd prefer a web hosted one someewhere
<humphreybc> i'll host it on my server for ya
<humphreybc> http://humphreybc.homeip.net/me6.jpg
<humphreybc> groovy?
<humphreybc> haha josh i think you need to resize your image there a bit :P
<humphreybc> GIANT JOSH TAKING OVER ZEH PLANETZ
<dutchie> yeah, doing that
<humphreybc> lol
<dutchie> is that a satisfactory size?
<humphreybc> nice facebook photos btw
<humphreybc> lol that's tiny now
<humphreybc> the same size as mine?
<humphreybc> god it takes ages for DNS changes to happen
<humphreybc> oh and dutchie, there's another feed to add to the planet: http://ubuntuper.wordpress.com/feed/
<humphreybc> it's pererik from IRC/manual team
<humphreybc> his full name is: Per Erik GlÃ¦rum GrÃ¸nvik
<dutchie> done
<humphreybc> and then somehow if you could work out to have "Josh Holland" instead of "http://www.joshh.co.uk" and "Benjamin Humphrey" instead of "Interesting >> Ubuntu Manual" then that would be icing on the cake :)
<humphreybc> same for pererik's too
<humphreybc> :)
<humphreybc> nice work!
<humphreybc> i am going to have a quick shower. it's 2am :S
<humphreybc> hmm
<humphreybc> the planet's looking fantastic. can't wait till this DNS name kicks in... i don't think i've ever been so excited over a DNS server change....!
<humphreybc> is that normal? :P
<dutchie> names/nicks done
<dutchie> wow, the unicode works too
<humphreybc> i think pererik's nick is actually pererik87
<humphreybc> and also his posts dont seem to show up?
<dutchie> there is some sort of bug with some wordpress.com feeds and planetplanet
<dutchie> I've seen it in #ubuntu-uk
<humphreybc> he probably has to enabled "show full posts in RSS feeds" option in wordpress
<humphreybc> The freeparking tech guy said this, 9 hours ago: Sorry, yes I can make changes for interesting.co.nz as that is with us,
<humphreybc> just not for joshh.co.uk.
<humphreybc> This has been done for you. This change may take up to 8 hours to take
<humphreybc> effect (though you are likely to see it working sooner).
<humphreybc> planet.interesting.co.nz. Â  IN Â  Â  Â CNAME Â  planet.joshh.co.uk.
<humphreybc> You may wish to check with the hosting company for joshh.co.uk and let
<humphreybc> them know in case they need to make any changes.
<humphreybc> planet.interesting.co.nz doesn't work yet, and it's been 9 hours. perhaps let your hosting company know?
<dutchie> aha, I know what the problem is
<humphreybc> i would have thought it would have been a simple URL redirection
<humphreybc> what's the problem?
<dutchie> I forgot to tell apache to respond to planet.interesting.co.nz
<humphreybc> ah ha
<dutchie> the dns still doesn't resolve
<humphreybc> it might be because i changed the IP from freeparking to weebly.com
<humphreybc> but that shouldn't change the domain stuff...
<humphreybc> maybe it's just screwed it up in the meantime
<humphreybc> interesting was pointing to humphreybc.wordpress.com, but now I have set it to go to humphreybc.weebly.com  - but instead of just domain forwarding, it's actually going to become the domain
<humphreybc> and then i'm getting rid of benjaminhumphreyphotography.com altogether because it's too long
<dutchie> that shouldn't affect planet.
<humphreybc> well i'll check again when i wake up in 8 hrs or so
<humphreybc> if it still isn't working then i'll email the guy again
<humphreybc> does the Contact link work properly?
<humphreybc> (it's set as mailto:<mailinglist>
<dutchie> I've never ever seen a mailto link work properly
<humphreybc> lol
<humphreybc> if you know of a better way to do it then try that instead
<humphreybc> right time for sleep i think
<humphreybc> night all
<humphreybc> http://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2010/01/interview-with-ubuntu-manual-project.html
<godbyk> Have you guys seen this? http://www.amazon.com/Ubuntu-Installation-Guide-Documentation-Project/dp/159682171X/
<humphreybc> lol nope
<humphreybc> $27USD is expensive for an install guide!
<humphreybc> is it real?
<godbyk> Yeah.
<godbyk> Yep
<godbyk> There's also a Desktop Guide, Server Guide, and Packaging Guide.
<humphreybc> yup i'm aware of the server guide
<godbyk> http://www.linbrary.com/ubuntu/910/index.html
<godbyk> It's all licensed under CC-BY-SA.
<manofring> lol
<humphreybc> ha
<humphreybc> does CS3 work under wine yet?
#ubuntu-manual 2011-01-17
<aquarius> nisshh, heya; would you rather have my incomplete desktopcouch developer manual chapter now so that there's *something*, or wait until it's finished?
<nisshh> aquarius, that depends how complete it is and when you plan to have it done by
<aquarius> well, the first 60% or so is basically complete (might tweak wording, but hey ho); the latter part remains to be written
<aquarius> but Belinda dropped me a mail to say "how are you getting on"
<nisshh> right
<aquarius> and the answer is: I haven't just ignored it :)
<nisshh> i assume its just plain text with no latex formatting at this point?
<aquarius> nope, it's latex
<nisshh> oh ok
<nisshh> heh, i was about to say chuck it in the branch so i can latexify it
<nisshh> but nvm now :)
<nisshh> well
<aquarius> although the extent of my latex is wrapping inline code in \code{}, wrapping lines of code in \verbatim{}, and having \{section}s and \{subsection}s :)
<nisshh> chuck it in the branch and just keep working on it from there, tbh
<nisshh> ah ok
<nisshh> plenty more could be done, like glossary entries, index entries, rewording, editing, etc <- aquarius
<aquarius> ya, that's what I thought :)
<nisshh> yeah
<aquarius> so, I'll push a branch.
<nisshh> yeah
<nisshh> or you could put it in trunk
<nisshh> that way i can jump in and add some latex stuff for you
<aquarius> um, I have the rights to commit to trunk?
<nisshh> yeah
<nisshh> everyone in the launchpad team does
<aquarius> blimey. you lot are pretty trusting. :)
<nisshh> well
<aquarius> if you'd rather I just pushed to trunk, then OK
<nisshh> its pretty hard to break the branch
<nisshh> hehe
<aquarius> true, but then I can't test it because I don't have the upgraded latex packages (see discussions previously), so I'll just have to take it on trust, but OK :)
<nisshh> ah ok
<nisshh> thats fine
<aquarius> so if I push broken latex, I'll break trunk for everyone until that's fixed. You're OK with that?
<nisshh> no it wont
<nisshh> itll only break make if you link it in and problems occure
<nisshh> a simple .tex file not linked in will cause no problems
<nisshh> aquarius, can i suggest you grab the latest trunk and inside create a dir called 'desktopcouch' or something
<nisshh> and put your chapter in there
<nisshh> much cleaner that way
<aquarius> ah, OK, so I shouldn't link it in. No worried :)
<nisshh> aquarius, yeah, its probably just safer if you dont link it in until one of us who knows latex better can check it over and make sure it has everything it needs.
<aquarius> have pushed revno 92 which contains the chapter thus far (not linked anywhere else)
<nisshh> ok
<nisshh> ill have a look
<nisshh> aquarius, see stuff like the double quotes? that has to be latexified :)
<nisshh> that would have cause problems during make
<nisshh> caused*
<aquarius> what? god almighty.
<nisshh> aquarius, yeah, in latex a pair of double quotes has to be like this: ``''
<aquarius> hahaha party like it's 1985
<nisshh> otherwise latex chucks a fit
<nisshh> yeah
<nisshh> aquarius, there are various symbols and chars that latex doesnt like, for example: _ $ &
<aquarius> I also have a question. The app I'm building in the chapter has a bunch of stuff that isn't actually relevant to desktopcouch, so there's little point in putting the source code for the whole app in the book, since it'd waste space. So...what should I do? Should the book just reference a branch on LP?
<nisshh> for thos a backslash before them is required
<nisshh> those*
<nisshh> hmmm
<ChrisWoollard> Morning, aquarius. I was actually going to ask you how it was going this morning. But you weren't one when i thought about it. Well done for beating me to it.
<nisshh> aquarius, which code sections were you thinking of that werent relevant?
<aquarius> nisshh, the app is a very (very very very) simple DVD cataloguer. It's a quickly app. So everything that displays a window, that does gtk, that displays the about box, etc, is totally irrelevant to the chapter. All the desktopcouch code is in one file called "backend.py", which is the one discussed in the chapter
<nisshh> ah i see
<nisshh> aquarius, i would say exclude the Quickly generated code and just present it as if your adding your code into a vanilla Quickly app
<nisshh> know what i mean?
<nisshh> so at the start just tell the user to create a new Quickly app and reference that chapter for that and then tell the reader that all the following code is to be added to the existing stuff
<aquarius> nisshh, sort of, but then there's the glade file, etc. If I put enough of the app into the book that you can build the app using nothing more than the book and quickly itself, there'll be a bunch of code in the chapter which is irrelevant and will bulk out the chapter unnecessarily, in my opinion.
<nisshh> true
<aquarius> people shouldn't have to type a glade file in; I should not have to write a whole thing instructing them what to do in glade :)
<nisshh> thats very true
<nisshh> aquarius, can i suggest you post to the list about this? i think we need others input on how to tackle this issue
<aquarius> sure thing
<nisshh> as far as i can think, there is no easy way of getting the user to use Quickly *and* teach them desktopcouch in the same chapter without telling them exactly what to do in glade
<aquarius> unless we say: bzr branch lp:ubuntu-developer-manual/desktopcouch-dvd-thingy
<aquarius> which I think is reasonable, myself.
<aquarius> and having the code for all the apps in LP is a godo idea anyway!
<aquarius> but I will lay this out in the mail.
<nisshh> yeah
<nisshh> aquarius, a good idea, but it would force a rearranging of the chapters (again) because the bzr/launchpad chapter is currently after yours :)
<nisshh> and tbh, the bzr/launchpad chapter *needs* to be last
<nisshh> since its all about releasing your app,etc
<aquarius> I really think that explaining a bunch of glade bollocks in my chapter is not a valuable use of space. :)
<nisshh> agreed
<aquarius> we don't need to explain the bzr stuff. Just tell people "type this command to get the code for this app. You don't have to care what it means. If you do care, read the bzr chapter."
<nisshh> but i for one, cannot easily think of a way around that
<nisshh> true
<nisshh> maybe just reference the bzr chapter when doing that stuff then
<aquarius> nisshh, email sent as requested, so we'll see what else comes of it :)
<nisshh> aquarius, ok, cool
 * jasono is away: I'm busy
#ubuntu-manual 2011-01-18
 * jasono is back (gone 00:07:59)
 * jasono is away: The Cape
#ubuntu-manual 2011-01-21
<R33D3M33R> hi all, i'm just wondering when the translations will be imported again from launchpad
<nisshh> godbyk, ^^^
<nisshh> godbyk-laptop, ^^^
<R33D3M33R> ok, thanks
<nisshh> R33D3M33R, yeah, i think godbyk might be alseep/away atm, but he is the one you should speak to about it
<andrejz> Hello! I was wondering if there is ubuntu manual version for 11.04 planned
<R33D3M33R> it probably is :)
<R33D3M33R> (or) i sure hope so
<nisshh> andrejz, there sure is, we have just had some (rather long) delays :)
<andrejz> I am asking because there wasn't a version for 10.10. The thing is we are considering translating the manual into slovenian as the UI of ubuntu is now translated OK. But we were wondering if there are any future versions planned as most users are quick to update  to the newest version
<andrejz> Would you consider it's save to translated the first part (about ubuntu philosopy, is ubuntu for me, etc), or will these strings also change for 11.04?
<nisshh> andrejz, as far as i know, the team will continue to release new versions, the next one to come out is for 10.10
<nisshh> andrejz, please DO NOT translate any strings in the manual yet
<nisshh> it has not been cleared for translation yet
<andrejz> ok, we will wait
<nisshh> andrejz, although, only minor edits are being made now, i would expect it to be ready pretty soon
<andrejz> great
<c7p> hello people :)
#ubuntu-manual 2012-01-21
<CrustyBarnacle> At SCaLE10x... anyone else?
#ubuntu-manual 2014-01-14
<SURAJ__> what is channel name for ubuntu?
<SURAJ__> i mean ubuntu official irc channel.
<KI7MT> SURAJ__, official channel in #ubuntu
<SURAJ__> thanks! got it in the manual just now.
#ubuntu-manual 2014-01-17
<CrazyLemon> godbyk you around? :)
<godbyk> CrazyLemon: I'm here now.
<CrazyLemon> godbyk hey! i was wondering if you could build slovenian manual for the last time - when you have the time of course :)
<godbyk> CrazyLemon: Sure. Which version number?
<CrazyLemon> godbyk 13.10 but there were some issues with layout.. so we made some notes found here https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AofZtZ7SwCOAdEczWFpTaFA2aHQybGVKX00wMGJrS3c#gid=0
<godbyk> CrazyLemon: Okay, great. I'll take a look at those, too. Most of the changes are ones that I will make after you've finalized the text of the translation.
<CrazyLemon> godbyk we did finalized ..thats why i'm asking for the last build :)
<godbyk> CrazyLemon: Ah, okay. So aside from the layout issues you noted, it's ready to be published?
<CrazyLemon> godbyk yup
 * godbyk is building the manual now.
<godbyk> Okay, great!
<CrazyLemon> godbyk you already fixed our notes? you work fast! :D
<godbyk> CrazyLemon: Uh oh.. there are a few build errors.
<godbyk> "Microsoft Core Fonts, oznaÄite \checkboxDo you accept the EULA license"
<CrazyLemon> godbyk thats impossible!
<CrazyLemon> meeeh
<godbyk> Let me see if I can track down some string numbers for you...
<CrazyLemon> godbyk i'll just search it via launchpad
<CrazyLemon> is that the only one?
<godbyk> https://translations.launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual/saucy/+pots/ubuntu-manual/sl/1671/+translate
<godbyk> no, there are more
<godbyk> Well, there might be more.. one moment. I fixed that one error locally and am rebuilding now.
<godbyk> The second error I originally saw was a side-effect of the first error.
<godbyk> CrazyLemon: Good news! That's the only build error.
<CrazyLemon> godbyk great news! :)
<godbyk> Let me tackle the layout problems you noticed..
<godbyk> CrazyLemon: You use American-style quotation marks, right?  âLike this âand thisâ?â
<CrazyLemon> godbyk yup
<godbyk> Okay, I've got the quotation marks fixed now.
<godbyk> There's not much I can do about the screenshot sitting by itself on page 17. There's just not enough text to go around it.
<CrazyLemon> godbyk thats ok.. the most important part is the \window issue
<godbyk> I've got that one fixed. Now I'm moving around a few margin notes and figures that are falling off the page.
<godbyk> CrazyLemon: I'm building the final PDFs now. I'll upload them and have you review them for any last-minute errors that I may have introduced.
<godbyk> CrazyLemon: Once you give me the go-ahead, I'll get them published.
<CrazyLemon> godbyk great.. thanks again! :)
<godbyk> CrazyLemon: I fixed the \window command, the layout on page 17 and page 133/134 and page 20. I left the screenshots/captions on pages 36 through 38 alone.
<godbyk> Uploading now...
<godbyk> CrazyLemon: You can view the PDFs at <http://builds.ubuntu-manual.org/builds/ubuntu-manual-sl-print.pdf> and <http://builds.ubuntu-manual.org/builds/ubuntu-manual-sl-screen.pdf>.
<godbyk> CrazyLemon: Let me know if you find any errors as I'll have to fix them on my end.
<godbyk> Thanks!
<CrazyLemon> godbyk whats the difference between the two PDF's ?
<CrazyLemon> and yea if we find something i'll late you know.. and thanks to you - we would be manualless (??) without you :)
<godbyk> CrazyLemon: The -screen one is in color and the -print one is black and white (without links) and has a half-title page. It's the one I submit for binding into a book.
<CrazyLemon> godbyk ok.. we'll check both.. thanks and good night!
<godbyk> Thanks. Good night!
#ubuntu-manual 2014-01-18
<thorwil> hi godbyk, 13.10 sl done
#ubuntu-manual 2014-01-19
<ske14> Thanks for adding me, godbyk.
<godbyk> ske14: Thanks for volunteering!
<ske14> godbyk: Do I grant barzaar.launchpad.net access to my private key?
<godbyk> Can you paste the message it's giving you?
<ske14>    	 	 	 	 	 	   sam@computer:~/Projects$ bzr branch lp:ubuntu-manual ubuntu-manual-trusty
<ske14>  The authenticity of host 'bazaar.launchpad.net (91.189.95.84)' can't be established.
<ske14>  RSA key fingerprint is - Are you sure you want to continue connecting (yes/no)? yes
<ske14>  Warning: Permanently added 'bazaar.launchpad.net,91.189.95.84' (RSA) to the list of known hosts.
<ske14>  Agent admitted failure to sign using the key.
<ske14>  Permission denied (publickey).
<ske14>  ConnectionReset reading response for 'BzrDir.open_2.1', retrying
<ske14>  Agent admitted failure to sign using the key.
<ske14>  Permission denied (publickey).
<ske14>  bzr: ERROR: Connection closed: Unexpected end of message. Please check connectivity and permissions, and report a bug if problems persist.
<ske14>   
<godbyk> ske14: Ah, okay. Have you uploaded your public key to Launchpad yet?
<godbyk> ske14: Do you see your public key on this page? <https://launchpad.net/people/+me/+editsshkeys>
<ske14> I do.
<ske14> I canceled the procedure if that is what you think is wrong. I just feel weird about allowing this procedure without knowing what it does in particular.
<godbyk> ske14: Have you run the 'bzr whoami 'and 'bzr launchpad-login' commands yet?
<ske14> Both are correct.
<godbyk> Hmm.. It sounds like it's an issue with your public key and Launchpad.
<godbyk> Do you have multiple public keys?
<godbyk> Have you used bzr and Launchpad before?
<ske14> I have never used bzr, but I've used Launchpad in the past as a tool to connect with the Lubuntu Documentation team. But I did not have to use bzr for that project.
<godbyk> You might also run 'ssh-add' and then try the bzr branch command again.
<ske14> This time I went through, but it asked for my password, so that it can access to my private key. Do I give it my private key? Is my private key only used to identify whom it is giving it to and isn't recorded else where?
<godbyk> When you created your keys (ssh-keygen), did you enter a password?
<ske14> Yes. I was.
<godbyk> Okay.
<godbyk> In that case, it's asking for your password so it can access your keys. It's not giving your password to Launchpad.
<ske14> And the private key won't be stored elsewhere nor is viewable to someone who could compromise my computer? These are newbie questions, I know. But I feel like it's necessary to ask.
<godbyk> Nope, you're safe.
<godbyk> You just uploaded your public key (id_rsa.pub) to Launchpad, not your private key.
<ske14> So it's safe for brz to see my private key after I give it access?
<godbyk> Since bzr is running on your computer, it's okay.
<ske14> Ok, thank you for baring with me. :)
<godbyk> ske14: No problem. The nice thing is that once you've got it done once, you don't have to worry about it anymore. :)
<ske14> Ok TeX Live is compiling. Thanks for all the help. I look forward to contributing. :)
<godbyk> Great! Let me know if you run into any problems or have any questions.
<ske14> I will if I run into any trouble. :)
<thorwil> godbyk: dang, how often must i make that mistake.
<thorwil> looks like i managed to merge, commit, push, now
<godbyk> thorwil: Which branch did you push the covers to? I'm still not seeing them on my end.
<thorwil> godbyk: 13.10
<godbyk> thorwil:  I don't see any recent commits from you here: <https://code.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-manual/ubuntu-manual/saucy>
<godbyk> thorwil: What's 'bzr info' report for you?
<thorwil> *deity*, i'm useless today
 * godbyk is glad to see he's not the only one who has days like that... many, many days like that...
<thorwil> godbyk: rev 210 for real
<godbyk> thorwil: Promises, promises!
<godbyk> \o/  Now I see it. Thanks! :)
<thorwil> if i ever get to design a file manager, it will have to have very obvious visual markers for repos with not yet pushed changes :)
<godbyk> thorwil: That's a splendid idea!
<godbyk> thorwil:  I have a script that prints the git branch name in my bash prompt. I bet something similar could be done to add an indicator that files haven't been committed/pushed in git or bzr.
<godbyk> I know I've been bitten by the 'forgot to push' lapse, too.
<ske14> godbyk: This Tex Live stuff isn't working out how I'd like it to. I removed it all because whatever I'm doing isn't working.
<godbyk> ske14: What problems are you having?
<godbyk> Were you using the Ubuntu texlive packages or the upstream TeX Live?
<ske14> I was following "Installing Tex Live" instructions here: http://ubuntu-manual.org/getinvolved/authors#launchpad
<ske14> My first issue was that I think it meant for me to install it into my package folder, so I did that after installing it on my downloads folder. But then after both failed, I did "sudo apt-get remove texlive-*" which did not detect anything besides unused packages, which I deleted. But nothing has solved my issue yet. Because whenever I run "~/Projects/ubuntu-manual-trusty/pkgs/install-pkgs.sh" I get error saying there's no Tex Live 
<ske14> I suppose another area that is gray is in number 6 -- the instructions aren't very specific, so this process might be where I get lost.
<godbyk> ske14: You can download the tarball to your Downloads directory (which your browser will do automatically).
<godbyk> ske14: Then you can run the commands in steps 3 through 5 from the Downloads directory.
<godbyk> For the installation directory, you can leave that set as the default.
<godbyk> Step 6 is walking you through the menu options in the installation program. I can help you through that if it's confusing.
<ske14> OK -- I'm going to recompile the file. It takes a while to download.
<ske14> godbyk: Wait, are you saying  "tar xvf install-tl-unx.tar.gz" should just work? What I've done -- was "cd [location of file]" and then extracted.
<godbyk> If the .tar.gz file was downloaded to the Downloads folder, then the tar xvf command should work if you've 'cd ~/Downloads' first.
<ske14> Ok, that produced a different result. Thank you. Maybe this was my issue.
<ske14> godbyk: I'm at step six. Default installation location should be fine?
<godbyk> ske14: Yep!
<godbyk> ske14: Don't forget to follow the instructions in the yellow box, too.
<ske14> godbyk: OK! Well, then I go to <O> and hit <L>. This is the next command available to me: 'New value for binary directory [/usr/local/bin]:'
<godbyk> You can just hit Enter to accept the defaults.
<ske14> godbyk: Ok, now it's installing. I will let you know the result. :)
<godbyk> ske14: Cool! Good luck!
<ske14> This is crazy. Now it says: "Done!  You should now be able to compile the Ubuntu manual!" :)
<godbyk> ske14: Great!
<godbyk> ske14: So now, you should be able to run 'make ubuntu-manual.pdf' to build the manual.
<godbyk> Once it completes successfully, you should have an ubuntu-manual.pdf file.
<ske14> godbyk: Well, that's my current issue.
<godbyk> ske14: Are you seeing any error messages?
<ske14> sam@user:~/Projects$ make ubuntu-manual.pdf
<ske14> make: *** No rule to make target `ubuntu-manual.pdf'.  Stop.
<godbyk> ske14: You need to be inside the ubuntu-manual directory to run make.
<ske14> Hm. I do not see it in my projects folder.
<ske14> oh
<ske14> I'm in it. lol
<godbyk> You're in the ~/Projects/ubuntu-manual-trusty/ folder?
<ske14> Yes. Here's the current error.
<ske14> godbyk: sam@user:~/Projects/ubuntu-manual-trusty$ make ubuntu-manual-LANG.pdf
<ske14> basename: extra operand `frontmatter'
<ske14> Try `basename --help' for more information.
<ske14> bzr version-info --custom --template='\\revinfo{{revno}}{{date}}' > revision.tex
<ske14> cp po/LANG.po po/LANG_org.po
<ske14> cp: cannot stat `po/LANG.po': No such file or directory
<ske14> make: *** [ubuntu-manual-LANG.tex] Error 1
<ske14> godbyk: oh
<ske14> godbyk: I got it to work. I fixed the command.
<ske14> Ok -- found it.
<godbyk> ske14: Ah, great!
<godbyk> Running 'make' with no arguments will also generate the ubuntu-manual.pdf file by default.
<ske14> Yeah, that's what seemed to be the issue!
<ske14> Well, I have quite a bit of work to look at. Thank you for all your help. :)
<godbyk> ske14: No problem. I'm glad you got it up and running. Please don't hesitate to ping me if you have any questions or encounter and problems.
<ske14> Sure will. I'm on all the email lists then too? I just subscribed to the one that was on the Launchpad.
<godbyk> If you subscribed to the ubuntu-manual mailing list through the Launchpad page, then you'll get emails from that list.
<godbyk> And you can email <ubuntu-manual@lists.launchpad.net> to send messages to that list.
<ske14> Ok, added that to my contacts. Thanks!
<godbyk> ske14: :)
 * godbyk is now off to do some chores. :-(
