#ubuntu-accessibility 2010-09-06
<AlanBell> qu|x: purblind meaning partially sighted?
<AlanBell> but yes, this channel is for everyone
<qu|x> AlanBell: yes :)
<Pendulum> http://www.webupd8.org/2010/09/synaptic-is-going-bye-bye-soon.html haven't we been getting a lot of synaptic related questions recently?
<Pendulum> (and I've confirmed with someone that the story is fairly accurate, although, my confirmer isn't sure if the timeline is 100% correct)
<charlie-tca> They have been talking about Software Center replacing synaptic and aptitude for a while now
<Pendulum> yeah
<charlie-tca> I don't have the timeline for it, myself
<Pendulum> I'm not sure anyone does
<Pendulum> it seems to be a bit fuzzy
<charlie-tca> heh, not surprising
<charlie-tca> Seems to be another case of "let's allow everyone to guess what we are doing"
<vish> oh! heh , paultag must have quoted that from me! he was asking the other day.. :p
<vish> charlie-tca: Pendulum: actually, i'm not sure how to go to older records on the wiki > https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SoftwareCenter?action=info , but it should be here , every release we keep postponing a few items to next release and replace synaptic when reasonable.. the plan for updates is : https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SoftwareUpdates
<nigelb> Pendulum: isn't there a problem with webkit (which sc uses) which causes problem with accessibility?
 * nigelb remembers an angry mail to -devel regarding that
<nigelb> charlie-tca: re:ubuntu website, we can talk to the website team :)
<charlie-tca> I seem to be frustrated today. The theme we picked for Xubuntu was working, but it changed to black panels again, and now I can't see it.
<nigelb> :(
<charlie-tca> I can't distinguish these dark colors or light colors without good contrast
<nigelb> :(
<Pendulum> charlie-tca: I am all for us working for that
<Pendulum> at the very least for the accessibility team pages
<Pendulum> and if we could convince people of overall change, it'd also be good
<charlie-tca> The days I can see are great! The days it blends together it gets crazy
<nigelb> if we can at least have an accessible version of the site, it would be great
<charlie-tca> It becomes quite a job trying to change all the links and text from the default and still keep it readable by those who use a speaking reader
<nigelb> I agree
<nigelb> As someone who works on web related stuff, most of the time, its focused on visual beauty than thought for screen readers :/
<charlie-tca> Agreed
<charlie-tca> It isn't focused on readability, but rather on "pretty"
<Pendulum> yeah
<Pendulum> well and "fancy"
<Pendulum> like all the people who are so excited about stack exchange
<Pendulum> which as far as I can tell is unlikely to be screen-reader usable
<Pendulum> because it's all JS
<charlie-tca> yup
<charlie-tca> Of course, just focusing on visual readability will help improve things, if we can keep them from adding more JS to the wiki.
<charlie-tca> nigelb: did you look at the wiki since I made a couple of changes?
<nigelb> charlie-tca: I'm totaly swamped until Thu
<charlie-tca> Okay
<nigelb> Going to be up all night too
<AlanBell> charlie-tca: can you give a quick opinion on the readabilty of this moin wiki theme: http://libertus.co.uk:88/uw
<charlie-tca> I like it
<AlanBell> great
<charlie-tca> The text shows very well, and the reverse links work great!
<qu|x> reverse links?
<AlanBell> the white on aubergine when you hover over a link?
<qu|x> Somethink like bit.ly or tiny.url?
<charlie-tca> yes, when you hilight the link, it reverses the colors
<charlie-tca> yup
<AlanBell> ok, interesting, didn't know that was a help
<nigelb> AlanBell: read scroll back on what charlie was talking about colors :)
<AlanBell> that prompted my question
<charlie-tca> The only thing that is difficult to see is the grey/pink text in the upper right. I think it is meant to be greyed out next to the search box.
<AlanBell> charlie-tca: yes, it is greyed out until you type something in the search box, then the contrast increases
<AlanBell> apparently a standard moin feature
<charlie-tca> That works then
<charlie-tca> I complained about the wiki when they changed the colors to the dark brown/light brown theme, but it went un-noticed because it looks "pretty"
<charlie-tca> You did all that as admin, right?
<AlanBell> this is just a development site
<AlanBell> running on my laptop
<AlanBell> it is a standard moin theme and the theory is to change this to it http://wiki.ubuntu-women.org
<AlanBell> no particular reason why it couldn't be contributed to wiki.ubuntu.com as well
<charlie-tca> yes, it is just much easier to do that as admin than as a user
<AlanBell> if you are logged into the wiki you can choose your preferred theme
<charlie-tca> That doesn't fix things when it is hard to see where to do that
<charlie-tca> However, if we has a good theme, maybe we can get it added and changed to default for accessibility only
<charlie-tca> That is how the help wiki did it
<AlanBell> I agree, I was just thinking that if I am going to be talking to people about installing themes it would be a good opportunity to get a high contrast one in the list
<charlie-tca> wow! That would be nice
<AlanBell> actually there is a new theme on the main wiki already called "light" which is somewhat similar to the one I have been working on
<AlanBell> http://moinmo.in/ThemeMarket/SimpleMente perhaps
<charlie-tca> Well, actually, that grey text on grey background sucks
<charlie-tca> classic is pretty good, but if I recall correctly, you lose some features that Ubuntu added when you use it
<charlie-tca> Unfortunately, the only theme that shows things properly with the changes made to moinmoin by Ubuntu is the Ubuntu theme
<Pendulum> charlie-tca: are you cool with my bringing some of these concerns to people like jono and the design team people?
<charlie-tca> sure
<charlie-tca> I tried when ayatana first formed, but they disregarded everything brought up that was not pretty enough
<Pendulum> jono because he needs to understand the level of institutional attitudinal change and the design team because they seem genuinely interested in making accessibility work
<Pendulum> hmm... I guess I should get involved in ayatana 
<charlie-tca> And I will even try to give any answers I can
<Pendulum> because pretty is fine, but if users can't use it, there's a problem
<AlanBell> charlie-tca: do you have an example of something in the wiki that is specific to the ubuntu theme?
<charlie-tca> I dropped ayatana. They aren't interested in how usable it is, but rather seemed to be interested in visual appearance
<charlie-tca> TOC
<charlie-tca> It fails in every other theme
<charlie-tca> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Accessibility
<charlie-tca> If you switch themes and read this, it shows up nicely
<charlie-tca> and it applies to the entire wiki
<AlanBell> hmm, I see some broken image links
<AlanBell> anyhow, Pendulum I think it would be good to get a specifically accessible theme on the u-w wiki along with the one elky designed, then work on getting it into the main wiki
<Pendulum> *nods*
<Pendulum> I think I'm also going to see, since these are obviously things we want on our blueprint, poke both ivanka and jono about trying to make it to our UDS session
<Pendulum> because jono's offered to advocate where he can
<AlanBell> yup
<Pendulum> and ivanka should be aware of how big an issue things like this are
<Pendulum> and I know how frustrating accessibility stuff is as a user
<Pendulum> a BBC site aimed at disabled people muffed it up majorly when redesigning their site and message boards (so much so that I nearly had to leave due to the visual design changes)
<Pendulum> and that's with their having 4 different colour profiles that they claimed had been tested on users!
<charlie-tca> That would be great
<charlie-tca> I tried for a year before I built this theme I use on my own website - http://keepingdreams.com/
<Pendulum> *nods*
<charlie-tca> and then it fails in windows
<Pendulum> aww :(
<charlie-tca> heh
<Pendulum> bloody IE
<charlie-tca> yup
<charlie-tca> but, I kind of think if they want to use IE, I don't really care anymore
<Pendulum> btw, which of the themes was I supposed to see when I clicked on that :)
<Pendulum> since you also have something that I really like in that there's a choice of themes
<Pendulum> (i'm also a fan of websites that give you variable type sizes so you can go as big or small as you want)
<charlie-tca> I use kubrickflex-blue
<Pendulum> *nods*
<Pendulum> that's the one I like of the 3 :)
<charlie-tca> but I wrote the thing, too
<Pendulum> (I do well with blues compared to a lot of other colours)
<Pendulum> that's because you have skills :P
<charlie-tca> I do too
<Pendulum> I don't
<AlanBell> locking the type size is the *worst* thing a website can do, that is intentionally breaking stuff
<charlie-tca> I don't have the skills now. I did have them
<charlie-tca> Yes, and it is really easy not to lock the type sizes.
<Pendulum> I have to at some point get a domain and move my blog and find a theme I like that's also accessible (which gets difficult because I really want a theme that's based in pink)
<AlanBell> I have had clients ask me to do that in the past so users can't "mess up their carefully designed layout"
 * AlanBell declined
<Pendulum> *nods*
<Pendulum> but also sites that actually offer multiple type sizes by clicking buttons
<charlie-tca> They don't seem to realize, if I can't read it, I am not using it.
<AlanBell> http://theopenlearningcentre.com/ <- buttons at the top
<charlie-tca> Mine was all based on my own ability to see. If I can't change font sizes and colors, I lose.
<Pendulum> yeah
<Pendulum> AlanBell: that's because you get it
<Pendulum> sadly you are in the minority :(
<AlanBell> I think Alan Lord designed that actually
<charlie-tca> Oh, that! Yeah, I thought about it, but in Firefox, Ctrl+plus key increases fonts nicely
<AlanBell> it does, a lesser needed feature these days
<Pendulum> yeah, but who wants to ctrl+plus key or ctrl+minus key all the time
<AlanBell> ctrl+mouse wheel is what I generally use (normally for zooming out to see the whole thing)
<charlie-tca> me. It is necessary to read a lot of websites now
<Pendulum> well, my point is more that some sites use bigger fonts and some user smaller
<charlie-tca> of course, I also set my minimum fonts to 12pt
<Pendulum> *use
<charlie-tca> Never seen one that was too big for me
<charlie-tca> Pendulum: I think a very light pink background with a black font might work
<Pendulum> fair enough
<Pendulum> charlie-tca: yeah, i'm thinking black on pink and just figure out what shade of pink is best
<AlanBell> lots of ebay adverts are in *huge* fonts, I think people expect that to get more attention or something
<charlie-tca> true
<Pendulum> AlanBell: those also tend to have busy colours and confuse my brain :-/
<charlie-tca> They don't realize that the more they are used, the less they attract
<charlie-tca> Pendulum: that Table Of Contents thing fails on all the wiki pages
<Pendulum> okay, i'm off to see if my powerchair will make it to town and back. catch y'all later :)
<charlie-tca> good luck
<AlanBell> charlie-tca: I expect it is a simple fix to get the toc working
<charlie-tca> doesn't seem to be. When they upgraded moinmoin, it was broken. The fix is to not use it or change themes
<charlie-tca> The only fix I have seen is to allow the TOC to have the entire page width
<charlie-tca> Unfortunately, it is one of the Ubuntu specific changes to moinmoin that causes it.
<AlanBell> not entirely sure which bit you mean though, this is what I see in the modern theme: http://people.ubuntu.com/~alanbell/toc.png
<charlie-tca> Correct. The box labeled Contents, should not have the grey shaded box in a white box. The text can be no longer than the gray portion. It will wrap inside the gray box only
<AlanBell> ok
<charlie-tca> If you shorten the width of the page, it will be seen, even down to single words per line, but the white box is still there
<charlie-tca> In the Ubuntu theme, the gray and white boxes are equal and used fully
<AlanBell> yeah, see what you mean, and obviously it shows up more with bigger fonts. It is an easy fix to the theme to make.
<AlanBell> but obviously not one we can make without access to the theme
<AlanBell> I will install http://moinmo.in/ThemeMarket/SimpleMente on my laptop later
<AlanBell> see if I can make that work with it
<AlanBell> http://libertus.co.uk:88/uw/Accessibility not quite right in that theme either
<charlie-tca> Nothing of the pages will be right in any theme except Ubuntu. 
<charlie-tca> I used modern theme until they upgraded the wiki a year or two ago
<charlie-tca> I also tried everything I could to make that work.
 * charlie-tca ran moinmoin at home for a few years
<AlanBell> yeah, I can see how to fix it
<charlie-tca> :-)
<charlie-tca> I had to stop trying a while back. Concentrated on just being able to do anything for a while
<AlanBell> http://libertus.co.uk:88/uw/Accessibility look OK?
<charlie-tca> no
<charlie-tca> http://imagebin.org/112905
<charlie-tca> Sorry, but that looks the same to me
<charlie-tca> wait
<charlie-tca> what happened now. It just reloaded properly
<AlanBell> caching probably
<charlie-tca> I like that
<charlie-tca> Is that modern, too?
<charlie-tca> ignore that pastebin
 * charlie-tca is starting to hate firefox 3.6.9
<charlie-tca> it doesn't always download the page again, but it caches everything and displays out of date things
<charlie-tca> even when I reload the page
#ubuntu-accessibility 2010-09-07
<AlanBell> charlie-tca: have you tried the new ubuntu font?
<AlanBell> would be interested in your opinion of using the new font with the large print high contrast theme
<charlie-tca> yes, I have been using it. I haven't tried with high contrast themes, but I have it as default for everything, including firefox
<charlie-tca> I thought that was what your devel wiki used?
<charlie-tca> or am I forcing my fonts somehow?
<charlie-tca> I do like it. It is quite easy on the eyes
<AlanBell> ok, good, thanks
<AlanBell> looking at the impact of making it the desktop default, which it might be
<AlanBell> bug 629622
<ubot2> Launchpad bug 629622 in ubuntu (and 1 other project) "MIR+FFE: Inclusion of Ubuntu Font Family ~0.7 in Maverick (10.10) (affects: 6) (heat: 50)" [Wishlist,Invalid] https://launchpad.net/bugs/629622
<vish> AlanBell: hi, did you have time to test the 9pt font bug i mentioned? :)
<AlanBell> vish: I had a quick look but couldn't see anything special happening, but that wasn't on Maverick at the time
<vish> AlanBell: hmm weird, i'm not on maverick either.. thanks though ..
<AlanBell> there are some hinting bugs
<Pendulum> the Disability Studies Conference at Lancaster Uni is streaming their plenaries this week at http://www.lancs.ac.uk/iss/digital/disability/
<Pendulum> charlie-tca: ping
<pendulum|phone> Anyone around?
<pendulum|phone> Sorry, my net just went down
<AlanBell> hi pendulum|phone 
<pendulum|phone> AlanBell: Is it just you and me?
<AlanBell> um, by the looks of things
<pendulum|phone> If so would you be okay with delaying some as the phone is also down so i need to use my mobile to ring the cable company
<AlanBell> yes, lets do that
<Pendulum> well, I may be around now
<AlanBell> oh good
<Pendulum> well, theoretically
<Pendulum> the net seems to be working
<Pendulum> but the phone still isn't working
<Pendulum> which isn't a great sign
<Pendulum> and I think the net is being quite laggy
<AlanBell> ok, well lets see how it goes
<charlie-tca> I made it back now
<AlanBell> o/ charlie-tca 
<Pendulum> hiya charlie-tca 
<charlie-tca> Hi
<Pendulum> charlie-tca: I was actually poking you about something completely separate since I think you said you don't have time for personas, right?
<charlie-tca> Oh, yeah
<charlie-tca> but I was outside with the lawn mower for a few minutes
<AlanBell> Pendulum: perhaps we should round up some more bodies to join in with the personas
<Pendulum> charlie-tca: can I PM you for a sec?
<Pendulum> AlanBell: any suggestions for whom?
<charlie-tca> sure, Pendulum 
<AlanBell> I can ask in -uk for a start
<AlanBell> just needs people with a bit of imagination and a good grasp of english
<MichealH> Hey all
<AlanBell> o/
<AlanBell> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Accessibility while you are waiting
<Pendulum> hi sick_fox 
<sick_fox> hi Pendulum 
<dutchie> o/
<sick_fox> dont you know how can I get into ubuntu channel?
<Pendulum> heya dutchie 
<dutchie> hi Pendulum 
<Pendulum> sick_fox: /join #ubuntu
<sick_fox> Pendulum, impossible I tried it even with windowed client and it is impossible to join for me
<sick_fox> Pendulum, what could be wrong?
<MichealH> AlanBell: While im waiting?
<charlie-tca> sick_fox: check in #ubuntu-ops
<Pendulum> sick_fox: I dunno, but this isn't a channel for support, you might want to try #ubuntu-beginners-help
<AlanBell> MichealH: just giving you some light reading
<Pendulum> anyway, for those of you here about the "writing project" AlanBell was advertising ;-)
<Pendulum> the Accessibility Team has been gathering information to create accessibility personas
<sick_fox> thanks for help
<Pendulum> AlanBell: do you have the really good link with examples of personas handy?
<AlanBell> Pendulum: the IBM one?
<MichealH> Sorry? Presonas?
<Pendulum> AlanBell: I think so?
<MichealH> (13 y/o her)
<Pendulum> Personas are generally design techniques
<AlanBell> http://www-01.ibm.com/software/ucd/gallery/software.html
<dutchie> MichealH: made-up users to exemplify target users
<dutchie> or something
<Pendulum> dutchie: that's pretty much it
<Pendulum> the idea behind it is that people design for people, not concepts
<MichealH> made-up users?
<MichealH> huh?
<AlanBell> ok, so a persona is a character that you have in your head while designing something
<MichealH> Like a image of the final thing?
<AlanBell> so you are not just building it for yourself, but making sure it works for all your target users
<MichealH> Okay :)
<Pendulum> so you're designing to people
 * dutchie tries to find where the UMP personas went
<Pendulum> rather than to more nebulous concepts
<Pendulum> so with accessibility this means creating personas of people who have accessibility needs
<AlanBell> canonical use personas too for designing Ubuntu
<AlanBell> we want to expand that set of personas to add some new characters with particular needs
<AlanBell> so one might be blind and use a screenreader for example
<MichealH> Yeah
<MichealH> o where would writing come into this?
<MichealH> *So
<AlanBell> now we could just have "person A uses orca a screenreader"
<AlanBell> which is dull and uninspiring
<MichealH> But thats not detailed enough?
<MichealH> AlanBell: Yup
<AlanBell> so the persona documents flesh this out into a real likeable person
<Pendulum> with their goals and life
 * dutchie will post a link to the UMP personas as soon as ubuntu one finishes uploading
<MichealH> So It would be like "name want to do action but, he/she has a disability..." type thing
<MichealH> And sort turn it into a story?
<AlanBell> kind of, yes
<dutchie> ah, https://lists.launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual/pdfEBhpByuVz4.pdf
<MichealH> AlanBell: Where do I sign up?
<AlanBell> dutchie: yeah, that would be the canonical personas we told Ben not to post to the list
<dutchie> AlanBell: oh dear, he never mentioned that
<Pendulum> dutchie: that's because he conveniently forgot that we said "don't post publicly"
<AlanBell> so yeah go look at the link dutchie posted, that is the canonical set of personas, it isn't a "released" document but we were given it for the benefit this project
<MichealH> Can I get started?
<AlanBell> MichealH: nope!
<MichealH> AlanBell: Why??? :(
<AlanBell> because you don't know what you are doing yet
<MichealH> I know we are making personas
<dutchie> we don't know what personas yet :)
<AlanBell> ok, so that document is the kind of thing we want to come up with at the end of the process
<MichealH> Okie
<AlanBell> just to give you an idea of the overall quality standard we are aiming for and the amount of background about their lives
<MichealH> Like "name witched to Ubuntu from Windows num year ago"
<MichealH> *witched
<MichealH> *swithched
<MichealH> I hate my spelling
<MichealH> Well, keyboard
 * charlie-tca keyboard can't spell either
<AlanBell> now we want our personas to be realistic, so we conducted a survey, I will link to the questions we asked in a sec
<Pendulum> MichealH: more like "so and so teaches 5th grade and likes to play softball"
<AlanBell> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Accessibility/Personas/Survey
<MichealH> I really need to go soon
<dutchie> hi Thingymebob 
<AlanBell> MichealH: ok, thats fine, you can catch up over the next few days, this is a long term project
<MichealH> AlanBell: Is that it? Because I really need to go
<Thingymebob> \o dutchie
<MichealH> Okay
<MichealH> \o
<AlanBell> we got 25 or so detailed responses to the questions which we have put in a spreadsheet somewhere
<AlanBell> in fact, yes we are not going to post that on the internet anywhere, but if you want it email me and I will send it to you
<AlanBell> alanbell at ubuntu.com
<AlanBell> it has names and emails removed but the answers might be a bit recognisable
<Pendulum> well, if you know the people
<dutchie> how many were you looking to do?
<Pendulum> which most people here don't
<Pendulum> we're looking to do about 5
<AlanBell> each one with a different principal impairment, but some may have multiple issues
<Pendulum> we were thinking to break down: blind, partially sighted, motor disability, learning disability... and something else that I'm missing
<AlanBell> we want a mixture of ages and genders
<AlanBell> deaf
<AlanBell> motor disability might mean a wheelchair user, but actually in terms of computer use we are talking about manual dexterity, using mouse, keyboard and other pointing devices
<AlanBell> so I think we need to start with making up their names and real basic information, then start to flesh out each one in turn
<dutchie> yeah
<AlanBell> or each pick a different one to do
<dutchie> we'd still need names and basic info first to get a good mix, i should imagine
<Pendulum> yes
<AlanBell> ok, so who is here and interested in working on this?
<dutchie> o/
<AlanBell> o/
<Pendulum> o/
<AlanBell> michealH was
<Pendulum> so that's 4 people
<AlanBell> think we caught everyone on a quiet night
<Pendulum> yeah
<AlanBell> feel free to drag other people in on this dutchie 
<Pendulum> I'm also going to poke MichelleQ when I see her next because I think she was also interested
 * dutchie tries to round up some ump-ers
<AlanBell> that would be ideal
<AlanBell> lets have a go at writing the high level info
<dutchie> how about using an etherpad or something?
<AlanBell> http://pad.ubuntu-uk.org/WkO4TZbvWt
<AlanBell> one other thing, we want to make them somewhat successful and awesome people, not a recluse with no friends!
<dutchie> :)
<Pendulum> but it is realistic to have all sorts of ages
<Thingymebob> Do you need to consider if these are from birth impairments, where the person will have greater skill in dealing with it, or accident / health induced impairments
<AlanBell> Thingymebob: that would certainly go in the description
<Pendulum> but it's not necessarily going to impact actual computer usage that much
<Pendulum> (for example, I use a computer similarly to some of the people with CP I know, even though my mobility stuff showed up when i was 15ish rather than from birth)
<AlanBell> Pendulum: what sort of ages were you thinking?
<Pendulum> i'm trying to think
<AlanBell> 30 +-10 seems to cover a lot of people in #ubuntu-uk and who were at UDS
<Pendulum> i'd like to have one teen in there. would anyone mind if I moved Henrietta to 18 from 24?
<AlanBell> go ahead
<Pendulum> otherwise any other ages in the middle work for the last 2 :)
<dutchie> shall we scatter them around the globe? we've managed to pick english names for most of them, but they could be changed
<Pendulum> makes sense to me
<AlanBell> I think a bit more scattering perhaps, I put one in India
<AlanBell> no Henrietta!
<dutchie> sorry
<Pendulum> We can rename Sally.
<AlanBell> if I get another chicken I will call it Daniela
<dutchie> :)
<dutchie> did the other alan manage to keep them all in one piece?
<AlanBell> he did
<dutchie> \o/
<AlanBell> lol
<dutchie> that just leaves Faisal
<AlanBell> not a call centre!
<dutchie> we could just make him a junior software engineer
<AlanBell> yup, that works too
<dutchie> ah, didn't see teacher
<dutchie> looks good to me
 * dutchie subscribes to the list
<AlanBell> lesson plans to type up and so on
<AlanBell> I am pretty pleased with how that worked out so far
<Pendulum> yeah
<AlanBell> ok, I think we have done enough for now (but feel free to carry on tweaking)
<AlanBell> Pendulum: what do you think we should do next, schedule another session?
<Pendulum>  Sorry, I'm on dasher so am slow. 
<AlanBell> yeah, thought you might be :-(
<Pendulum> AlanBell: either that or divvy up and each take on
<Pendulum> 1
<AlanBell> I think working on it together works rather well, we could do a pad for each one and thrash it out, then transfer the results to the wiki or a nicely formatted document later
<AlanBell> nice idea dutchie!
<dutchie> only if they're not all taken :)
<dutchie> wahey
<dutchie> right
<AlanBell> just wondering when to have another session at it
<AlanBell> so I think the thing to do next is to each tell a friend about the project, and show them the etherpad so far
<AlanBell> we can schedule another hack hour on the documents in a day or two, via an email to the accessibilty list
<AlanBell> thanks all o/
<Pendulum> sounds good to me :)
#ubuntu-accessibility 2010-09-09
<Thingymebob_> Anyone catch what Hererfordshire LUG were up to last night http://www.herefordshire.lug.org.uk/node/52
<AlanBell> sounds good, thanks for pointing that out Thingymebob
#ubuntu-accessibility 2011-09-05
<TheMuso> Yeah a few things to fix for beta 2, particularly related to the session you get when you install Ubuntu using orca.
<Pendulum> http://lightgetsin.dreamwidth.org/312472.html
<Pendulum> and people wonder why we get so frustrated sometimes...
<paul_h1> Pendulum: decent read, nothing very surprising
<Pendulum> nope, not surprising at all
<paul_h1> Pendulum: disappointed to see that echofon was on there, was gonna try that :-(
<maco> Ugh
<AlanBell> it is a holiday in the US today, tomorrow I am going to poke more people about the onboard+unity problem
<TheMuso> Pendulum: That article re-afferms my belief that we are better off with dedicated desktop apps over having to use a web browser for things that really are not the domain of a web browser.
<TheMuso> I am starting to think of building web apps as the lazy approach.
#ubuntu-accessibility 2011-09-06
<joanie> Hi kids. :-)
<joanie> I'm vaguely curious what the status if of this bug:
<joanie> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/gtk+3.0/+bug/769256
<ubot2`> Ubuntu bug 769256 in gtk+3.0 "Gdk enumerations do not contain GType info in GIR" [Undecided,New]
<joanie> As I just added as a comment, Orca ain't gonna run in Oneiric 
<Pendulum> charlie-tca: is that one of the bugs that you were coming up against in testing?
<joanie> Pendulum: regardless of what charlie-tca has or has not run up against whilst testing.... Whom must we poke to get this critical bug (from April!!) fixed?
 * joanie sharpens a stick. :-P :-P
<Pendulum> joanie: well my next question to him was if it was one of the bugs he'd seen, if he knew if it was one of the ones being worked on by TheMuso or not :)
<joanie> Pendulum: in terms of whether or not it was one of those bugs....
<joanie> It would not have been clearly seen during Accessibility testing if what was being tested did not use introspection
<joanie> Orca's introspection port was completed as part of 3.1.90
<joanie> ditto for Accerciser's
<joanie> For whatever reason, until the 3.1.91 release (last night), the downstream Orca package was 3.1.5
<joanie> I wouldn't be surprised if that were due to the package deps I had to bump in Orca
<joanie> to ensure Orca using introspection would run
<Pendulum> *nods*
<joanie> in other words, that's my really verbose way of saying that unless charlie-tca is building upstream ATs (along with all their major dependencies including glib and gobject-introspection and pygobject and gtk+ 3 and ....) then he's likely not yet encountered this bug
<charlie-tca> I have not had much time to test orca
<joanie> :-)
<joanie> charlie-tca: No worries
<charlie-tca> It has been failing in Unity, from what I have seen
<joanie> What's of interest now is that you no longer *can* test Orca.
<charlie-tca> So, it won't work at all in Unity or in Gnome3?
<joanie> Not until someone fixes your downstream Gdk introspection packaging issue. 
<joanie> That was filed in April
<Pendulum> joanie: well, that's helpful since jono asked about a11y in Unity recently so I think we can pretty safely say 'very borked for Orca users'
<charlie-tca> It has been working, though
<joanie> charlie-tca: scroll up a tad
<joanie> or lemme try again
<joanie> The bug in question impacts ATs which use gobject introspection
<joanie> due to some upstream changes we upstream ATs suddenly (very) had to start using it (like NOW)
<charlie-tca> I am not a developer, can you say that in terms I, as a user, can understand?
<joanie> charlie-tca: sorry
<joanie> sure
<joanie> GNOME upstream made a change two or three weeks ago
<joanie> as a result Orca and Accerciser had to make a change a couple of weeks ago
<charlie-tca> That would explain it breaking bad recently, then
<joanie> to use a different set of libraries
<charlie-tca> I got it now.
<charlie-tca> Pendulum: yes, that means orca is very broken in Oneiric
<joanie> But the kicker is that Eitan (Caribou developer) found and reported this NOT-AT bug, which breaks ATs, back in April
<joanie> and it has remained ignored
<charlie-tca> and just fixing the python/py-ati bugs won't fix it
<joanie> and to be clear: Orca works just fine in Fedora
<joanie> this is some debian thing
<charlie-tca> Um, that is filed against gtk3, which really doesn't get looked at as breaking a11y.
<joanie> Pendulum: and jono: To get back to the Unity-specific a11y, last time I checked that was progressing reasonably well
<jono> joanie, cool :-)
<joanie> but code freeze meant that certain changes might not make it in on time (in Unity or Nux or something)
<Pendulum> joanie: yeah, I knew it was progressing, we're just in process of compiling an overall report
<charlie-tca> It was working somewhat until a couple of weeks ago, actually
<joanie> But the guy doing the Unity a11y work happens to be our upstream a11y team lead
<joanie> and he and I have been working on ensuring that Orca and Unity play happily together
<joanie> we've even made a few upstream changes in Orca to ensure that it works well with Unity
<Pendulum> except now we have this bug and I honestly have no idea who to poke about it
<joanie> but jono and others: If this NON-Orca, NON-Unity bug doesn't get fixed, it will all be for naught.
<charlie-tca> We poke TheMuso about it. He has been working the pyatspi stuff recently
<jono> cool
<joanie> charlie-tca: it is not a pyatspi bug
<Pendulum> jono: bug in question is https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/gtk+3.0/+bug/769256
<ubot2`> Ubuntu bug 769256 in gtk+3.0 "Gdk enumerations do not contain GType info in GIR" [Undecided,New]
<Pendulum> jono: any idea who should be poked?
 * joanie sharpens another stick and smiles sweetly
<joanie> ;-)
<jono> Pendulum, so this causes pyatspi not to load?
<joanie> jono no
<joanie> it causes Gdk from introspection to not load after pyatspi was imported
<joanie> and ATs need to import pyatspi and Gdk
<jono> what is the effect of this on Unity?
<joanie> Unity will not be accessible by Orca
<joanie> because Orca will not run
<jono> right
<charlie-tca> apparently, orca / screen reader will not work at all
<jono> you should post to ubuntu-desktop about this
<jono> and ensure Luke is aware of it
<Pendulum> yeah, we've poked Luke :)
<Pendulum> just wasn't sure who else
<joanie> jono: Oh TheMuso is being poked by me in multiple channels so I suspect he'll be aware of it when he looks at his screen. :-)
<jono> Pendulum, as I say, post to ubuntu-desktop
<joanie> is there a particular channel I should be poking in since this is not an a11y bug, but rather one that impacts a11y?
<jono> joanie, ^
<charlie-tca> joanie: #ubuntu-desktop
 * joanie nods
<jono> you can also ask in #ubuntu-desktop too
<jono> but post to the list too
<joanie> thanks guys :-)
<charlie-tca> Thank you
<joanie> jono: I'll leave posting to the list to Pendulum (thanks in advance!)
<jono> np, thanks for all your efforts :-)
<joanie> it's crazy enough dealing with upstreams. ;-)
<joanie> thank you for all of yours jono!
<Pendulum> joanie: thanks
<jono> :-)
<Pendulum> jono: thanks
<Pendulum> err... joanie I meant that as 'thanks for poking us here so we knew to poke'
<joanie> Pendulum: Ah. :-) Well, I know where the friends of a11y live. :-)
 * joanie sharpens a third stick and wanders off to meet new "friends" :-P
<Pendulum> joanie: you still need to come visit :P
<joanie> I know, I know. But you know this is my "volunteer job"
<charlie-tca> I have to go poke them too, since the only thing that can now have printers is Unity, according to changes to the /usr/share/applications/system-config-printer.desktop file
<joanie> and life upstream is insane
<Pendulum> joanie: fair enough :) I actually meant your Southern MA/Northern CT tour you were talking about doing at some point ;)
<joanie> this latest introspection requirement (as a requirement) was a complete suprise
<joanie> Aha. True. 
<joanie> I shall make a point of doing that, hopefully in the months to come
<Pendulum> :D
<joanie> I think I've got some guest lecturing to do in Springfield Mass
<Pendulum> \o/
<Pendulum> if they'll let me in, I'll come to your lecture :)
<maco> charlie-tca: what package provides that file?
<charlie-tca> which one?
<maco> charlie-tca: the broken desktop file
<maco> i can make a debdiff and annoy a patch pilot
<charlie-tca> should be system-config-printer
<charlie-tca> That bug should affect almost everyone that is not using unity, too
<maco> charlie-tca: got a bug report?
<maco> kde has its own one, but... does xfce?
<charlie-tca> bug 841817
<ubot2`> Launchpad bug 841817 in system-config-printer "system-config-printer missing from menus" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/841817
<charlie-tca> We use that to install the printer
<maco> ok
<maco> so it should be available in gnome, unity, xfce.... lde?
<maco> bah, lxde?
<charlie-tca> yes, please
<charlie-tca> To only show in Unity is a recent change
<maco> ah NotShowIn, thats a handy one
<maco> i'll make it NotShowIn kde since kde has its own printer config doodad
<charlie-tca> Thanks
<charlie-tca> Pendulum: I copied the log to try and explain this to pitti, if I need to
<Pendulum> charlie-tca: okay, I've got it took and am happy to help
<charlie-tca> We can at least bug him. I will add it to my release team meeting notes, too
<maco> charlie-tca: bryce sponsored a patch for it
<charlie-tca> Thank you very much for doing that!
<Pendulum> TheMuso: just to bug you more, the menus being hidden thing that jono blogged about today, will that impact people who use Orca at all or will keyboard shortcuts still work without the menu being 'visible'?
<TheMuso> Pendulum: Menus being hidden?
<Pendulum> TheMuso: the windows buttons are now hidden until you mouseover them
<TheMuso> Pendulum: oh ok
<Pendulum> I guess by your response it shouldn't be an issue with people who use keyboard shortcuts? (since it's something that's in beta 1)
<TheMuso> No it shouldn't be, however keyboard shortcuts to the panel in both 2d and 3d are currently non-functional.
<TheMuso> A bug has been filed.
<paul_h1> TheMuso: is that why my desktop appeared to lock up when I booted the Oneric beta1 CD yesterday and chose the live session option? I heard "welcome to orca, desktop", but then couldn't make anything happen
<TheMuso> paul_h1: Partly due to the fact that you went into Unity 3D.
<TheMuso> Assuming you have the hardware to use that of course.
<TheMuso> and your hardware works with free drivers.
<charlie-tca> TheMuso: did you catch the discussion on bug 769256
<ubot2`> Launchpad bug 769256 in gtk+3.0 "Gdk enumerations do not contain GType info in GIR" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/769256
<charlie-tca> supposed to have broken orca completely in Unity
<TheMuso> charlie-tca: Yes I did.
<TheMuso> charlie-tca: Its broken orca period.
<charlie-tca> Okay
<TheMuso> As well as accerciser.
<charlie-tca> Will press pitti tomorrow about trying to get it fixed
<TheMuso> I will talk to him about it when he comes on in my afternoon.
<charlie-tca> Great
<paul_h1> TheMuso: didn't you tell me that the screen reader profile was going to make the system boot into unity 2D?
<charlie-tca> You probably understand it much better than I do
<TheMuso> paul_h1: Yes, but that code didn't land by beta 1.
<paul_h1> TheMuso: oh okay. well one good thing is that my USB braille display is now being detected and brltty is started automatically and orca is using it. oh, didn't the code to have a sound played at the try it/install screen land either?
<TheMuso> paul_h1: yes it did but its not working. Its on my "to debug" list.
<TheMuso> to debug
<paul_h1> TheMuso: not a major issue as you can simply wait until the CD drive spins down
<TheMuso> paul_h1: Yes, but the sound will still be useful.
<AlanBell> handy for booting from USB in particular
#ubuntu-accessibility 2011-09-07
<TheMuso> AlanBell: agreed
<AlanBell> TheMuso: so is a sound in gfxboot no longer something worth bothering with?
<TheMuso> AlanBell: I don't think so, now that I've been able to get code into ubiquity to launch a11y profiles.
<AlanBell> awesome
<AlanBell> so ctrl+s is the magic key combo to start it talking then?
<TheMuso> Yep
<TheMuso> And control + H for high contrast.
<TheMuso> Magnification doesn't have one atm because we don't really have a magnification solution atm.
<TheMuso> Due to compiz eZoom not really working alongside orca yet, and the installer is not yet set up to use compiz when necessary.
 * AlanBell fully intends to make compiz ezoom work for text tracking during oneiric
<AlanBell> we need to get the community documentation on the installer right
<TheMuso> Yep
<TheMuso> During oneiric, or P?
<AlanBell> developed on Oneiric to be ready by P
<AlanBell> which will hopefully be Promiscuous Puffin
<TheMuso> heh ok.
<Pendulum> AlanBell: that's got my vote
<paul_h1> I was disappointed that 11.04 wasn't called oily octapus
<Pendulum> paul_h1: that would have been good too
<TheMuso> I think Mark chooses animals based on the focus for the next release.
#ubuntu-accessibility 2011-09-08
 * AlanBell sees bug 769256 is fixed \o/
<ubot2`> Launchpad bug 769256 in gtk+3.0 "Gdk enumerations do not contain GType info in GIR" [High,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/769256
<Pendulum> yeah, I saw that this morning :)
<charlie-tca> Pendulum: are you going to orlando?
<Pendulum> charlie-tca: no, didn't even apply as assumed wouldn't be healthy enough
<Pendulum> are you?
<charlie-tca> yes, amazingly
<charlie-tca> I understand the health thing, though
<charlie-tca> I am planning to take about a month off after oneiric releases, myself
<Pendulum> it's all the post-surgery stuff
<charlie-tca> will interupt it for UDS
<Pendulum> I assumed that I'd be in worse shape much longer
<Pendulum> so didn't bother applying
<charlie-tca> yup
<Pendulum> had I known that I'd be this well now, I'd have applied
<charlie-tca> You are doing really good for going through that
<Pendulum> oh well :)
<Pendulum> I hope you'll be willing to run an a11y team session?
<charlie-tca> sure
<charlie-tca> I am always willing to do that
<charlie-tca> Let's try and put something together, and we will get it in.
<Pendulum> :D
<Pendulum> I'll call a meeting for maybe the last week of this month, how does that sound?
<charlie-tca> Sounds good
<charlie-tca> beta2 releases in two weeks, so it will be a good time for it
<Pendulum> TheMuso: how would a meeting the last week of this month work for you?
<TheMuso> Pendulum: Fine for me.
#ubuntu-accessibility 2011-09-09
<maco> Pendulum: https://twitter.com/#!/maco_nix/status/112199321453203456
<Pendulum> :)
#ubuntu-accessibility 2011-09-10
<DelphiWorld> Hello
<DelphiWorld> hi TheMuso
<DelphiWorld> and sladen
<DelphiWorld> sladen: so who's daniela here ?
<ScottSanbar> Hi
<DelphiWorld> hey ScottSanbar
<ScottSanbar> This IRC is pretty cool - I am using Trillian
<sladen> DelphiWorld: TheMuso is in Australia, and it's the weekend, so might not be around
<DelphiWorld> sladen: i see.
<DelphiWorld> sladen: so TheMuso is daniela ?
<ScottSanbar> OK
<sladen> DelphiWorld: I don't think daniela is here, but Pendulum is a good starting contact
<DelphiWorld> sladen: Fun.
<sladen> DelphiWorld: ScottSanbar: who has what kit?
<DelphiWorld> sladen: i am surprised, i never used linux like she do.
<DelphiWorld> Welcome AlanBell
<AlanBell> :)
<ScottSanbar> what do you mean by kit?
<sladen> ScottSanbar: braille terminal, speech synth, USB, serial, ...
<AlanBell> DelphiWorld: I am just starting a server install in a virtual machine
<DelphiWorld> Good, AlanBell
<DelphiWorld> sladen: i have only serial cable, nothing else
<ScottSanbar> I am not blind yet - just going blind slowly.  I have big screens and they are close to my face, and that is enough for now.  I am slowed down by not finding stuff on the screen sometimes, but not that bad yeat
<sladen> DelphiWorld: what do you have on the end of the serial cable?  Another machine/
<DelphiWorld> sladen: would by fun to test those stufs in ubuntu but sadly no brail display sales here
<DelphiWorld> sladen: right, a Windows Spoken machine that 99.99% of blind users use it
<AlanBell> so it boots to a list of languages, enter to select english then F5 to open a list of accessibility options
<DelphiWorld> AlanBell: i see.
<AlanBell> this contains "none", "High Contrast", "Braille Terminal"
<DelphiWorld> AlanBell: but can not read those in the screen :)
<AlanBell> so you want a serial port tty right?
<DelphiWorld> AlanBell: yep
<DelphiWorld> AlanBell: i am trying sladen suggestion, the alternate cd
<sladen> DelphiWorld: alternate CD is basically plain "Debian-Installer", which I've used for dozens of serial-only installs (but not for several years)
<sladen> DelphiWorld: so it /is/ possible.  Just that I've forgotten how
<ScottSanbar> Might this help:
<ScottSanbar> Sorry:  https://help.ubuntu.com/community/SerialConsoleHowto
<AlanBell> that seems to depend on you having already installed it
<ScottSanbar> Oh, I see - sorry
<Pendulum> ScottSanbar: I think you're referring to the Daniela persona? She's not a real person, she's a composite of several people we surveyed who have visual impairment/are blind (and the back story is all made up)
<DelphiWorld> hello Pendulum
<ScottSanbar> OK, thanks
<ScottSanbar> Pendulum: OK, thanks
<AlanBell> http://www.howtoforge.com/setting_up_a_serial_console this looks helpful, it describes some boot options that can be added to get it to talk on a serial console, I am just wondering how I could test them
<Pendulum> DelphiWorld: oops sorry, I guess I meant you in that
<DelphiWorld> Pendulum: :)
<Pendulum> (sorry, my brain is about 5 places at the moment)
<ScottSanbar> https://help.ubuntu.com/11.04/installation-guide/i386/boot-parms.html seems helpful
<sladen> DelphiWorld: /I/ think roughly what you want to do is put the CD/USB in and install that it is booting (this will vary depending on BIOS setup)
<DelphiWorld> sladen: :)
<sladen> DelphiWorld: then interrupt the bootloader by using the serial port, at which Grub will use serial and the rest should all just work
<sladen> DelphiWorld: or worst case, you need to interrupt the bootloader (Grub) from the keyboard by pressing shift repeatedly, then type
<sladen> DelphiWorld: 'e' (for Edit).  'space', 'console=ttyS0'   (capital 'S' for serial)
<AlanBell> it is isolinux though from the CD
<DelphiWorld> sladen: :)
 * AlanBell has server booting over serial port \o/
<AlanBell> DelphiWorld: I have it working with the ubuntu server 11.04 CD
<AlanBell> put in CD, enter to select english
<AlanBell> F6, then escape
<AlanBell> space then console=ttyS0 then return
<DelphiWorld> AlanBell: do i need to type something ?
<AlanBell> DelphiWorld: enter, f6, escape, space 'console=ttyS0; enter
<AlanBell> DelphiWorld: then it starts working on serial
<DelphiWorld> AlanBell: but ttyS0 is selectable or would i need to typ it ?
<DelphiWorld> hahaha
<DelphiWorld> i see torrent through Ipv6!
<AlanBell> need to type it
<AlanBell> you type console=ttyS0
<AlanBell> with a space in front of it
<DelphiWorld> AlanBell: hmmm let me look where's = in Qwerty leyout
<DelphiWorld> =yeah lol AlanBell is same as AZERTY !
<AlanBell> oh, want french?
<DelphiWorld> AlanBell: yeah i am from algeria:D
<AlanBell> if you want Francais then press cursor down 7 times right at the start
<DelphiWorld> AlanBell: :P
<DelphiWorld> AlanBell: i should wait for my friend to come online
<DelphiWorld> AlanBell: so we do skype and he see my screen and tel me what's hapening;)
<AlanBell> ok
<AlanBell> don't bother trying to put it in French, it doesn't seem to make any difference!
<DelphiWorld> AlanBell: yep, no need it at all ;)
<DelphiWorld> AlanBell: would by a streaming server:P
<DelphiWorld> AlanBell: i am planing to multicast through my Wifi from a DVB card
<DelphiWorld> AlanBell: you see right ? not blind i mean
<AlanBell> yeah I am sighted
<DelphiWorld> AlanBell: and would i by able to help ubuntu accessibility ? if yes, what should i do ?
<AlanBell> we would love more help :)
<DelphiWorld> AlanBell: yeah ? you're also sighted ?
<DelphiWorld> Pendulum: you too ?
<Pendulum> DelphiWorld: yes, I'm sighted.
<DelphiWorld> Pendulum, and AlanBell where are you from  ?
<AlanBell> I am from the UK
<Pendulum> I'm in the US
<DelphiWorld> we maybe should do a Ubuntu Accessibility Day
<DelphiWorld> and you Pendulum ?
<DelphiWorld> i am from Algeria
<DelphiWorld> Pendulum: so Welcome both to algeria ;)
<DelphiWorld> Pendulum, AlanBell please think about a Ubuntu accessibility meeting
<ScottSanbar> DelphiWorld:  I cannot help because I am new, but I am hoping to help before I go blind and learn
<DelphiWorld> ScottSanbar: you're welcome :D
<ScottSanbar> Thanks!
<ScottSanbar> DelphiWorld: Thanks!
<DelphiWorld> ScottSanbar: got it allready:D
<ScottSanbar> DelphiWorld; Yeah, I am REALLY new!
<DelphiWorld> getting ubuntu alternative CD 27%
<DelphiWorld> using torrent
<Pendulum> DelphiWorld: we're going to have a meeting the end of this month
<DelphiWorld> Pendulum: where ?
<Pendulum> in this IRC channel
<Pendulum> I just haven't been well enough to hold one recently (I had surgery about 6 weeks ago)
<DelphiWorld> Pendulum: i see
<DelphiWorld> Pendulum: better to do a real meeting like in south affrica
<DelphiWorld> and you, sladen ?
<AlanBell> there are local team meetings in different countries, and every 6 months there is a conference about the next release of Ubuntu
<DelphiWorld> AlanBell: yeah
<DelphiWorld> AlanBell: i was hoping to go to ubuntu tunisia but sadly was a bad time
<DelphiWorld> AlanBell: what are you using right now  to chat ?
<AlanBell> irssi which is a command line IRC client and I am running it in a screen session so I can leave it running all the time
<DelphiWorld> AlanBell: and tts or brail ?
<AlanBell> eyes :) I am sighted
<DelphiWorld> AlanBell: ahh
 * DelphiWorld getting food... too late !
<ScottSanbar> AlanBell:  Have you tried Trillian?  Or do you prefere the command line for IRC?
<AlanBell> I kind of like the command line for IRC, it works on my phone too
<ScottSanbar> AlanBell:  In what sense do you use your phone for IRC?  Just talking to IRC posts messages???
<AlanBell> I have an android phone with an ssh client on it
<AlanBell> ScottSanbar: I can ssh in and connect to my running IRC client, which is in about 50 channels and has all the scrollback
<ScottSanbar> Ah, I see - stable, solid and if you disconnect, just re-ssh and reconnect without losing your sessions, right?
<AlanBell> yeah
<AlanBell> and I can start a conversation on my laptop, and continue on the phone without disconnecting
<ScottSanbar> Once you ssh in, you must have a background IRC client, like a daemon, that is maintaining state and that you can connect to.  What is the software that does that?  Am I describing it right?
<AlanBell> about right :)
<ScottSanbar> AlanBell:  What IRC client?
<AlanBell> screen is the software that allows you to have running terminal sessions that you can disconnect from
<ScottSanbar> Oh, now I see - is screen available by default in Ubunto, or must I get it?  Link?
<AlanBell> or you can run byobu which is 'screen' but set up right
<AlanBell> just run byobu
<ScottSanbar> OK, thanks.
<ScottSanbar> I am using VNC right now since I do not have a keyboard or mouse for my Ubuntu machine.  That would work in a similar manner (I use tightvnc as the server, and Real VNC on my Windows Vista Box.  TightVNC maintains a stable, standalone complete desktop that I can connect/disconnect from at will just as if I was directly on the Ubuntu keyboard/mouse/display
<AlanBell> yes, same kind of thing, but for a terminal session
<ScottSanbar> The terminal session thing would work for iPhone, Android, Tablets where I am betting VNC is not available, right?
<ScottSanbar> AlanBell:  Are you using IRSSI?
<AlanBell> yes, irssi
<AlanBell> works anywhere with an ssh client basically
<DelphiWorld> brb installing
<AlanBell> excellent!
<DelphiWorld> AlanBell: :P
<DelphiWorld> hi valorie
<ScottSanbar> AlanBell: I am now on this forum using irssi in a screen session over a terminal from a windows PC to my Ubuntu PC
<ScottSanbar> AlanBell:  Thanks for your help.  I like this
<ScottSanbar> AlanBell:  I just disconnected, killed my terminal, and reconnected - works great!  Thanks!
<ScottSanbar> I am not receiving messages.  If anyone can see my messages, please reply, if you do not mind
<valorie> ScottSanbar: I can see you
<valorie> and your texting
<ScottSanbar> valorie: ok, thanks
<ScottSanbar> valorie:  my user_name was incorrect
<valorie> ok
<valorie> 13:07] --> ScottSanbar has joined this channel (~scott@ip68-97-25-128.ok.ok.cox.net).
<valorie> [13:23] --> ScottSanbar has joined this channel (~ScottSanb@ip68-97-25-128.ok.ok.cox.net).
<ScottSanbar> AlanBell: I am now on irssi in a screen session, and have successfully disconnected while the irssi screen was maintained, killed my terminal, reconnected and this is really cool - thanks!
<ScottSanbar> valorie:  did you see my message to AlanBell?
<valorie> yes
<valorie> if you send to the channel, everyone in channel sees it
<valorie> you can also private message, but I'm not sure how you do that in irssi
<valorie> also, in ubuntu namespaces, it's considered rude to PM without asking permission
<ScottSanbar> ok, thanks - sorry
<ScottSanbar> valorie:  you are a very nice person
<Pendulum> valorie: can I PM you for a sec?
<valorie> thanks!
<valorie> yes
<DelphiWorld> how are you valorie ?
<valorie> I'm good
<valorie> and you, DelphiWorld?
<DelphiWorld> valorie: as sound i found #ubuntu-accessibility, i am ferly happy, valorie !
<valorie> I don't really help out here, but I'm interested in progress
<DelphiWorld> valorie: Welcome:)
<DelphiWorld> where are you from valorie ?
<valorie> I live an hour from Seattle, Washington in the US
<valorie> you?
<DelphiWorld> valorie: Algeria
<valorie> cool!
<valorie> I love that we have world-wide scope
<DelphiWorld> valorie: Seriously... i Love UBUNTU.
 * valorie is a Kubuntu user
<valorie> I love the community
<valorie> that we are KDE and Gnome people together
<valorie> and also LXDE, etc.
<DelphiWorld> valorie: :D
<DelphiWorld> valorie: AlanBellnd are you blind too ?
<DelphiWorld> valorie: are you blind too ?
<DelphiWorld> SORY AlanBell :P
<valorie> no, I'm sighted
<valorie> just interested in a11y, because I think it's key
<DelphiWorld> valorie: i am totaly blind
<DelphiWorld> valorie: no eyes at all
<valorie> diversity of all sorts is needed for a healthy project
<valorie> I love that you are able to be online
<DelphiWorld> valorie: seriously, here in our country everyone think that a blind man can't do anything at all
<valorie> do you do testing for ubuntu?
<DelphiWorld> valorie:  a bit
<valorie> I used to ride the bus with a blind man daily
<valorie> he was on his way to work, and me on my way to college
<DelphiWorld> valorie: i see
<DelphiWorld> valorie: sadly GPS maps is not yet up to date here
<DelphiWorld> valorie: otherwise my iPhone:)
<valorie> people can do a lot, if they are open to the possibilities
<valorie> have you tried Marble?
<valorie> which is a KDE product
<valorie> not sure that runs on iPhone, but there is a Qt-only version for phones
<DelphiWorld> valorie:  didn't try
<valorie> might work well for you
<valorie> it's a very active project
<valorie> and KDE apps run in Ubuntu
<AlanBell> ScottSanbar: great! glad it is working for you!
#ubuntu-accessibility 2011-09-11
<ScottSanbar> valorie, would you give me permission to PM you so I can see if I can get it to work with irssi?
<ScottSanbar> vim
<valorie> sure, but you left
#ubuntu-accessibility 2012-09-03
<BHO1> I just installed Xbuntu 12.04 yesterday.  Today I forgot to plug in my laptop and it died.  Ever since it died, my screen has been dim and i can not figure out how to brighten it.  Can someone please help me brighten my screen?
#ubuntu-accessibility 2012-09-05
<Fudge> do you have media keys to do it for you?
<Fudge> oops, he is gone
<DomasoFan562> hi guys. how are you doing?
<DomasoFan562> wow. unity 6.4.0 makes accessibility with orca 3.7.0.90 very broken. tried ubuntu 12.10 daily today. now installed gnome-shell on my test machine.
#ubuntu-accessibility 2012-09-06
<Fudge> DomasoFan  only unity 3d right?
<DomasoFan> Fudge: yeah. gnome-shell works. unity 2d seems not available anymore. there seems an empty button in lightdm though.
<Fudge> oh, I heard that the two are being merged so accessibility will have to start over again I guess
<DomasoFan> Fudge: welcome to fixing things all over the place again. wonder if that gets done until the release of 12.10. hmm. seems those unity people always break accessibility all over the place.
<Fudge> makes it difficult for the small community who have to battle getting accessibility on devs radar
<DomasoFan> Fudge: yeah indeed. currently i wasn't able to find the lenses in the dash. used recent orca as recent as can be using apt and also unity 6.4.0 which was the most recent. oh well. let's see what happens. they did miracles once too where everything was falling appart a month before.
<Fudge> i dont have quantal installed at the moment but the daily is on a memstick, how broken is it?
<DomasoFan> well the dash is quite broken. orca can't find much at all. all what its saying when you arrow down is applications panel and nothing more. the launcher seems to work quite well. the quick lists seem to have issues though. currently also gnome-shell seems to have issues also but i guess thats cause of my laptop or more that i have broken the install again so reinstalling tomorrow i guess.
<Fudge> i have not really had much luck when i looked at gnome-shell, i  tried to use it in f16 and could only see the wireless signal and that was it. Big failure
<DomasoFan> Fudge: today seems to be broken day. had to fix my debian server as well and my windows machine also doesn't do that what it actually should do. oh well seems to be time to go to bed then. *lol*
<DomasoFan> gnome-shell worked but they seem to have not enough keyboard shortcuts. there is a mention of windows+f10 but this shortcut doesn't work. should bring you to the applications menu.
<Fudge> oh thanks for heads up
<DomasoFan> but thats when you play with recent and daily/beta software. kind of default.
<DomasoFan> so. now off. CU. will be around tomorrow i guess around 08:00 UTC or so.
<Fudge> round same time 11am gmt+10
<DomasoFan> hi everyone. i am back again after sleep. hope you are all doing fine.
#ubuntu-accessibility 2013-09-06
<speaker1234> I'd like to try an experiment with driving linux from speech recognition (NaturallySpeaking).  The concept is run windows as the host, linux as the guest and interact with linux via an RPC (i.e. keystroke injection and identifying currently active window)
<speaker1234>  
<speaker1234> I'm not exactly sure where to start for those two features. Would appreciate some help
