#ubuntu-accessibility 2010-09-27
<kinouchou> hello
<AlanBell> hi kinouchou 
<kinouchou> hi AlanBell
<ferulo> Pendulum: ping?
<Pendulum> ferulo: hi
<Pendulum> ferulo: what's up? (sorry, I was out when you pinged)
<ferulo> hey Pendulum 
<ferulo> I have released a much improved version of dots (Braille transcription program) and I was wondering who I should poke to get this new version packaged for ubuntu
<Pendulum> ferulo: well, i'd start by packaging as a PPA yourself (if you haven't already) and then talking to TheMuso 
<ferulo> ok, I also have some tricky questions about how to package some stuff
<ferulo> mostly because we depend on unreleased liblouisxml python bindings
 * ferulo checks the liblouisxml package maintainer
<ferulo> ubuntu MOTU?
<dutchie> ferulo: it's generally a better route to get the new release into debian and allow it to filter down into ubuntu
<ferulo> then Samuel Thibault is my guy :)
<ferulo> thanks
#ubuntu-accessibility 2010-09-29
<Pendulum> TheMuso: would you or do you know anyone who might be able to do a talk on how developers can make applications accessible?
<maco> i would like to learn such info
<Pendulum> (for one of the classroom weeks)
<maco> all i got right now is "avoid webkit & flash"
<Pendulum> maco: and for anything on the web javascript ;-)
<maco> apparently no!
<Pendulum> maco: oh?
<maco> a blind guy in #diaspora informed me there ARE ways to do AJAX such that screenreaders can handle them decently
<Pendulum> cool
<TheMuso> Pendulum: I know of people who could give guidelines, but not a talk.
<maco> he's on the ubuntu-a11y mailing list, but i forget his name...
<maco> TheMuso: there was a "wait are we talking about the same luke?" moment in that conversation ;-)
<maco> Pendulum: http://accessibleajax.clcworld.net/
<maco> though knowing TheMuso's workflow for screenreader, i'm still inclined to avoid it
<Pendulum> TheMuso: by the way, I did not get UDS sponsorship so can't go. Are you okay with Charlie & Nigel running a more community/outreach session on accessibility? (as I assume you're running a devel one)
<TheMuso> Pendulum: Sure.
<TheMuso> I am not sure if there will be adevel session for accessibility as such, but their might be, given that there is a good chance I will be working on making unity more accessible for Natty.
<Pendulum> TheMuso: awesome
<charlie-tca> As long we are gathered here, anyone got ideas on the accessibility session for Ubuntu Open Week?
<charlie-tca> users week, ?
<Pendulum> charlie-tca: feel free to look at the logs from my User Day talk
<charlie-tca> Okay
<Pendulum> charlie-tca: open week :)
<Pendulum> TheMuso: also, jono has suggested I post to the ubuntu-devel mailing list to get input on how to get developers more aware/involved in accessibility stuff. Do you have any advice about that?
<TheMuso> Pendulum: Not really.
<Pendulum> okay
<Pendulum> I thought I'd ask in case you had any magic words of wisdom ;-)
<charlie-tca> Pendulum: I been waiting 6 months for words of wisdom from Xubuntu devs, it doesn't seem to be coming either.
<TheMuso> Re ajax, it depends on how well the browser accessibility -> screen reader communication is integrated.
<Pendulum> *nods*
<AlanBell> hi all
<AlanBell> could someone take a look at a website for me from a low vision/screenreader point of view
<AlanBell> http://beta.ubuntu-uk.org/2010/09/29/announcing-the-new-ubuntu-uk-org/
<AlanBell> and http://beta.ubuntu-uk.org
<charlie-tca> something on the beta site makes the text blur a bit. It might be the grey color of the text combined with the image on the page.
<charlie-tca> The footer text is very difficult to see
<AlanBell> ah yes, not sure what, if anything is going in the footer, but yes I see the grey on grey
<charlie-tca> Well, the first site, I guess
<charlie-tca> The http://beta.ubuntu-uk.org , the third paragraph seems to be the easiest to read
<AlanBell> ok, interesting
<AlanBell> that should be showing up in the new ubuntu font if you have that installed
<AlanBell> except for the third paragraph which is monospaced
<charlie-tca> I don't understand it, but the letters are very easy to distinguish compared to the other paragraphs
<AlanBell> it is just nonsense
<charlie-tca> I am not sure what is making http://beta.ubuntu-uk.org/2010/09/29/announcing-the-new-ubuntu-uk-org/ text difficult to focus. It might be the contrast?
<AlanBell> at the moment the text is a dark grey, I will make it a bit closer to black
<AlanBell> do you have the new ubuntu font installed?
<charlie-tca> I still have the beta font
<AlanBell> yeah, that should be fine
<charlie-tca> I just have to really work to focus the text there
<charlie-tca> hmm, and I didn't think I had issues with this stuff?
<charlie-tca> I changed to high contrast svg icon set last night. WOW! I can see the icons again
<AlanBell> can you try again now
<charlie-tca> That helps a lot
<AlanBell> great
<charlie-tca> I can focus all of the text easier now
<AlanBell> for reference the text was #444 now it is black
<AlanBell> I also made the italics in the blockquote bit bigger as I think italics tend to get harder to read when smaller
<charlie-tca> I think my eyes carry some of the image blur to the text. If I scroll the page down to get rid of the image, I can see it better
<AlanBell> and I have made all the body content text 10% larger
<charlie-tca> Italics are always an issue. I am pretty sure they shrink the text for it purposely. 
<AlanBell> that is interesting, so the drop shadow/blur thing on the image is disruptive for you
<charlie-tca> Yeah, kind of crazy. My mind doesn't accept these things could be an issue, but my eyes are weird, sometimes
<AlanBell> hmm, issue unique to you?
<charlie-tca> I don't really know. It would be good to get some more opinions, though
<AlanBell> will do. I haven't shown that dropshadow thing to anyone yet, not sure if anyone will like it yet!
<AlanBell> I have been quite carefull about allowing the text to be scaled really big or small without breaking the layout
<charlie-tca> My eyes do stupid things. I used to be able to print everything in 6pt to save space. Now, some days, 14pt is too hard to read
<charlie-tca> I think your layout looks good. I even like the image in there!
<AlanBell> it was originally designed by the web team as a fixed width layout, I made it fluid
<AlanBell> designers seem to have some crazy obsession with 960px fixed width layouts
<charlie-tca> heh
<charlie-tca> Goes back to 1024 x 768 monitors, doesn't it?
<charlie-tca> Some of the wide screen monitors, the page is way too wide to read easily
<AlanBell> there is this http://960.gs site which has a graphic designer fanbase
<JanC> on a 1920x1080 display with 9pt fonts you don't want text the width of your screen, but nobody forces you to have your browser window that wide of course...
<charlie-tca> yup
<charlie-tca> apparently, I keep my browser just wide enough to display a 1024 wide page
<JanC> and having such a wide screen allows you to use things like the Tree Style Tab plugin, which is just awesome  ;)
<JanC> especially if you often have 100+ tabs open
<charlie-tca> I could see that. I don't usually open more than 20 or thirty, myself
<JanC> it might still be useful, as it allows to order tabs in meaningful groups etc.
<AlanBell> JanC: actually I have a 2048x1152 monitor and I often do read things full width
<JanC> depends on what DPI & font size you use
<JanC> but 300 characters on a line doesn't improve reading  ;)
<AlanBell> yeah, depends, I like things that are good at zooming in and out
#ubuntu-accessibility 2010-10-01
* You're now known as ubuntulog
<Pendulum> it seems that we will have more accessibility people after all...
<maco> oh
<maco> ?
<Pendulum> just got sponsorship :)
<dutchie> congrats Pendulum 
<Pendulum> dutchie: thanks :)
<Pendulum> maco: seems they'll have to get used to both of us in one place after all ;-)
<charlie-tca> great!
<Pendulum> charlie-tca: this means I get to meet you, too, right?
<charlie-tca> yup
<Pendulum> :)
<Pendulum> yay!
<maco> Pendulum: WOOT
<Pendulum> maco: you don't think this'll cause some sort of weird space/time paradox right?
<maco> nah i'm pretty sure we've always existed as two separate people...
<Pendulum> so'm I. but other people seemed confused...
<maco> though for all i know at some point in the future i'm on the run, change my name to Penelope, and then find a time machine...
<Pendulum> heh
<maco> are you future-me hiding in past-you's (that is, me) 's present?
<maco> are you future-me hiding in past-you's (that is, my) present?
<maco> (parentheticals break possessives)
<Pendulum> maco: I suspect there's only one way to find out...
<maco> kill me and see if you cease to exist?
<Pendulum> well, I was going to say put us in the same room and see if the universe explodes
<Pendulum> but I suppose it's the same thing
<AlanBell> so who has the longest hair? is the question
<AlanBell> maco or future maco
<Pendulum> depends on whether I get split ends trimmed before UDS, I suspect
<AlanBell> if future maco is longer then that practically proves the hypothesis
<Pendulum> heh
<AlanBell> the universe would only explode if it was maco and anti-maco
<AlanBell> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Accessibility/TeamReports/10/September
<AlanBell> any more news to add?
<AlanBell> any pre-release activities of note?
<AlanBell> blog posts on accessibility issues?
<dutchie> i tidied my bedroom
<dutchie> you can add that if you like
<charlie-tca> wiki work is in progress
<AlanBell> bung it in the report, it is a wiki after all!
<charlie-tca> and you think I know  how? ;-)
<charlie-tca> I will do so
<Pendulum> AlanBell: not sure if it should be on this month's or next month's, but we've provided Ubuntu CDs for a Gnome A11y hackfest
<Pendulum> the hackfest is next month, but all the work we did was this month ;)
<erkan^> hello, have a special software for deaf on Ubuntu? Example Ubuntu warn user, but deaf people can not heard. ?
<Pendulum> umm... I'm not sure
<Pendulum> I think maco was looking into something like that about a month ago
#ubuntu-accessibility 2010-10-02
<erkan^> ok
<Pendulum> most of the Ubuntu alerts these days are visual rather than using sound
<Pendulum> erkan^: is there something specific you're looking for?
<Pendulum> erkan^: I meant, a specific sort of alert?
<erkan^> yes i mean (-:
<erkan^> alert
<maco> i added a checkbox for visual system bell in 10.10 but for 10.04 you still have to use gconf
<maco> erkan^: to get visual bell, toggle the value of /apps/metacity/general/visual_bell  in gconf-editor
<erkan^> where can I found --> gconf-editor, maco
<erkan^> I have not very experenice :(
<maco> erkan^: it's not installed by default
<maco> you can use gconftool2 as well, but it's harder
<maco> gconf-editor will look like regedit on windows
<erkan^> i see that gconf-editor is installed well by default
<erkan^> I go try
<erkan^> I have found and I have ticked ON now, maco
<maco> k so now if you hit backspace a few times in the terminal it should blink the screen
<erkan^> Yes!!!! I see. Thank you :D maco
<erkan^> here (xchat) too, :)
<maco> oh ok. i dont know what all programs do bells
<erkan^> I will see
<JanC> erkan^: \o/  âº
<erkan^> what is \o/ ? ei in de prullenbak weggooien? :P JanC 
<JanC> throwing your hands in the air yelling "yipee" (or "joepie" in dutch)
<JanC> it's nice to see a more & more mixed a11y community BTW
<JanC> blind, deaf, motoric, etc.
<JanC> which reminds me of this bug: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/brltty/+bug/651707
<ubot2> Launchpad bug 651707 in ubuntu-docs (Ubuntu) (and 1 other project) "brltty refers to http://access.ubuntu.com/braille but that doesn't exist (affects: 1) (heat: 8)" [Medium,Triaged]
<erkan^> have too "deafblind"? (-:
<JanC> it seems like there was an a11y site once, but it disappeared...  :-(
<erkan^> Gooien je handen in de lucht te schreeuwen "Yipee" (-:
<Pendulum> TheMuso: do you know anything about an old access website at access.ubuntu.com ?
<TheMuso> Pendulum: I only vaguely remember it mentioned in the past.
<JanC> well, brltty refers to it  ;)
<JanC> or whatever package provides the brltty boot script
<JanC> Pendulum: any news about a possible a11y track or devroom @ FOSDEM?
<JanC> or peopel interested in it?
<Pendulum> JanC: it's being discussed on Gnome A11y
<JanC> somebody I know who is blind was going to forward it to other blind linux lists & forums & developers he knows too
<Pendulum> well it turns out one of the Gnome A11y people had been in discussion with the guy about it
<JanC> and the FOSDEM organiser who proposed this knows an OpenSuse board member who's working on this etc.
<Pendulum> I think that's possibly the Gnome A11y person as well
<JanC> oh, cool
<Pendulum> Bryen
<JanC> yeah, seems like that must be him (after reading the list archive)
<maco> what's bryen's last name?
<maco> oh ok yes
<maco> that is the guy i met at OLF
<maco> bryen yunashko
<Pendulum> maco: yeah, that makes sense that you met him at OLF :)
<maco> Pendulum: that's the guy i was interpreting for on friday
#ubuntu-accessibility 2011-09-26
<AlanBell> ev is going to sort out the ubiquity breakage, which will mean the text of the installer will all change
<AlanBell> Cheri703: maco: is the revised text all in place?
<AlanBell> the patch is in trunk to un-break it already
<AlanBell> so the live CD installer should be different tomorrow
<AlanBell> TheMuso: did you find out where to patch the orca pronunciation dictionary?
<maco> Not yet. I have cheri's changes so I'll apply them
<maco> Are we past translation freeze already though?
<maco> Alanbell ^
<AlanBell> will check
<maco> Because the accessible strings will need to be translated too
<maco> Probably should check the strings with themuso too
<AlanBell> maco: some of them are so bad they are bugs rather than translations
<AlanBell> like referencing 11.04 in the partitioning options
<AlanBell> or the option to replace windows
<AlanBell> bug 817416
<ubot2> Launchpad bug 817416 in unity-2d "[launcher] contextual menus are not spoken by the Orca screen reader" [High,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/817416
<AlanBell> o/ charlie-tca 
<charlie-tca> yeah, here
<AlanBell> there has been some stuff happening that looks suspiciously like progress :)
<AlanBell>  bug 781385
<ubot2> Launchpad bug 781385 in ubiquity "Ubiquity GTK should have useful accessible names set in the Glade .ui files instead of using the variable names" [Medium,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/781385
<AlanBell> fix committed :)
<charlie-tca> Great!
<charlie-tca> Guess pushing helped then
<charlie-tca> Once in a while, I get one right?
<AlanBell> yeah, I had a word with ev
<charlie-tca> Thank you
<AlanBell> basically a reminder
<charlie-tca> I never knew how hard it can be to determine which bugs are going to be the most important.
<AlanBell> yeah, that one is going to uncover some more ones
<AlanBell> and right now is a good time to get a11y bugs worked on
<AlanBell> which it shouldn't be
<AlanBell> but at least things are getting testable now
<charlie-tca> Yeah, We really should not have to wait until the final week to get things fixed
<charlie-tca> which reminds me. I am going to send a response to the uds-p discussion about a11y
<Pendulum> I wonder if that's a suggestion for something to get discussed at UDS "making a11y part of the process"?
<Pendulum> haha
<charlie-tca> Maybe we can get more people involved
<Pendulum> I was just thinking about that
<charlie-tca> yeah, somehting along those lines
<AlanBell> there have been quite a few discussions now about onboard and unity
<AlanBell> that is a significant architectural and standards fail
<charlie-tca> Yes, but about a few discussions about actually being allowed to make accessibility work for P ?
<AlanBell> the windowing system just doesn't have a signal for a window to say it really needs to stay on top, because nobody spotted it as an issue at the right time
<AlanBell> but that one I think should be referred to as a touchscreen issue, or a soft keyboard issue, not an a11y specific problem
<maco> Pendulum: will you be at uds?
<charlie-tca> If it is not a11y problem, it will get pushed aside, almost to wishlist
<maco> charlie-tca: i think AlanBell's suspicion is that they care more about tablets than about a11y
<charlie-tca> Maybe right, too
<Pendulum> maco: nope. wasn't sure if I'd be healthy enough when sponsorship was open and now can't afford it
<charlie-tca> Okay, I will go along with that idea, then
<Pendulum> OTOH, didn't Mark say on that thread specifically that Unity wasn't aimed at tablets?
 * charlie-tca will be there, trying to push a11y again... :)
 * Pendulum will be pushing a11y on remote participation
<charlie-tca> Pendulum: I am pretty sure they are getting tired of hearing from me now
<AlanBell> maco: not quite, I know it is going to be a PITA to fix, I would rather they thought they were doing something that inconvenient for tablets than a11y
<maco> i might sneak into uds for a11y sessions
<maco> turns out the train is within my budget, so i figure couchsurfing is doable
<Pendulum> :)
<maco> AlanBell: i'm going to commit cheri's a11y updates now. it involves removing the label-setting code from the partitioner page but the stuff in her patch *should* obsolete that anyway. i guess we'll find out with tomorrow's build how that works
<AlanBell> cool
<AlanBell> is that in lp:unity or lp:ubuntu/unity?
<maco> ubiquity
<maco> lp:ubiquity
<maco> oh hm right yes that may not do anything to the build
<maco> unless....hm no its too late to bug cjwatson to package the branch :-/
<maco> ok fine i guess we'll find out the day after tomorrow
<maco> (by pestering cjwatson tomorrow)
<maco> Cheri703: your patch is committed
<Cheri703> cool! :) I hope I did it right >.>
<maco> it looked reasonable to me
<maco> and you used glade, so syntax bugs are not a worry. i need to update the other .ui files by hand since glade falls over on them. in that case, syntax bugs are a possible eek
<maco> AlanBell: what is it that says 11.04 incorrectly?
<maco> AlanBell: nevermind. i see your bug comment
<maco> AlanBell: ok that's fixed now too
<AlanBell> yay, thanks
<AlanBell> what do you think about the replace windows one?
<AlanBell> http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-installer/ubiquity/trunk/view/head:/gui/gtk/stepPartAsk.ui#L327
<AlanBell> it asked me if I would like to replace windows with ubuntu and I didn't have windows at all
<maco> doh
<maco> i'd file a bug on that
<AlanBell> Replace the current operating system with Ubuntu would be more accurate
<maco> because that sounds like some OS-prober stuff should make tha label change
<maco> hmm that would also work
<maco> i was just going "wait does it ask Mac users that too??"
<AlanBell> it would do I expect
<AlanBell> bug 860051
<ubot2> Launchpad bug 860051 in ubiquity "radio buttons in partitioning page of installer mentions windows" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/860051
<Cheri703> for the record, if anyone else has easy "type things into boxes" things that need to be done for patches and whatnot, I may be able to help :) (other types of stuff not as much)
<maco> AlanBell: the .desktop for "Universal Access".... can you run dpkg -S    on it?
<AlanBell> if I could boot my oneiric VM I would
<AlanBell> ah, if firefox gives me back a couple of gigs of memory maybe a VM will start
<maco> it shouldnt have changed since natty...i think
<maco> its just that im on kde
<maco> so i dont have it installed
<AlanBell> gnome-universal-access-panel.desktop is in gnome-control-center
<maco> thank ye kindly
<AlanBell> and that isn't in natty
<maco> oh boo
<maco> oh right. gnome did a lot of kersplat to gnome-control-center
<AlanBell> gersplat
<AlanBell> you need to get out of that K way of thinking :)
<maco> haha
<AlanBell> so unity isn't searching the keywords is it
<maco> i dont think there are keywords
<AlanBell> there are squillions of them
<maco> but a keywords extension to the desktop spec would be nice given gnome kde unity all have searchy launchers
<maco> hmm?
<maco> h/o im looking at a bug for skaet right now
<AlanBell> X-GNOME-Keywords=Keyboard;Mouse;a11y;Accessibility;Contrast;Zoom;Screen Reader;text;font;size;AccessX;Sticky Keys;Slow Keys;Bounce Keys;Mouse Keys
<AlanBell> http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-branches/ubuntu/oneiric/gnome-control-center/oneiric/view/head:/panels/universal-access/gnome-universal-access-panel.desktop.in.in#L17
<maco> go figure
<maco> i wonder if caps counts...
<AlanBell> which bug?
<maco> bu 852583
<maco> bug 852583
<ubot2> Launchpad bug 852583 in gnome-orca "Orca does not pronounce "Oneiric Ocelot" very well" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/852583
<AlanBell> :)
<maco> so for the keywords, Name and Comment are being searched but not X-GNOME-Keywords, it seems
<maco> https://bugs.launchpad.net/unity/+bug/828356
<ubot2> Ubuntu bug 828356 in unity "Support X-GNOME-Keywords" [Undecided,New]
<AlanBell> that should be pretty easy to fix
 * maco fetches a unity branch
<AlanBell> it would be in the apps lens
<AlanBell> at the point the names all get flung into the search engine thing the keywords need to go in too
<maco> AlanBell: skaet marked that one as high
<AlanBell> yay
<AlanBell> and it is a "fix the a11y reported bug and *lots* of other bits get better" type of bug
<AlanBell> maco: did you mean to remove the rls-mgr-o-tracking tag?
<maco> no?
<maco> there wasnt one there when i clicked the edit
<AlanBell> I think you and skaet argued over the edit :)
 * skaet goes and puts tag back ;)
 * maco does a test build on espeak
<AlanBell> maco: are you fixing it in espeak?
<maco> AlanBell: yes
<maco> is that not the right way?
<AlanBell> great, better place to do it than in orca
<maco> oh ok
<maco> yeah espeak has dictionaries for each language
<AlanBell> perfect, you can override stuff in orca, but yes, espeak is the right place if you can do that :)
<maco> if you look in espeak's source package, there is a dictsources/ 
<maco> in there theres a **_rules and **_list for each language
<maco> if you dont want to make for evil merges, you add things by making a **_extra
<AlanBell> spd-say kubuntu
<AlanBell> spd-say coobuntu
<maco> Ubuntu's in the _list file
<maco> kubuntu sounds like queuebuntu
<AlanBell> it does
<AlanBell> spd-say cuh-buntu
<maco> the syntax you're using in spd-say isnt anything like what goes in the files unfortunately
<maco> here's what im attempting for oneiric ocelot
<maco> oneiric     oUn'i@3@k
<maco> ocelot      0sEl0t
<maco> doh
<AlanBell> gosh
<maco> that shouldve been oUn'i:r@k
<maco> @ is for a schwa sound
<meetingology> maco: Error: "is" is not a valid command.
<maco> haha
<TheMuso> AlanBell: Yeah I started digging into the code yesterday to do that, and I found it, however I found another bug that I needed to work with upstrea to fix. Now that is addressed, I will be doing the work today.
<AlanBell> TheMuso: maco is doing it now in espeak
<TheMuso> Actually espeak would be a better location, yes.
<maco> my new version of espeak is building now
<TheMuso> maco: Ok cool.,
<TheMuso> Oh and plesae don't screw with the ubuntu words as they are pronounced correctly IMO.
<maco> it sounds odd to me for the glide to be there. like kyu instead of ku
<maco> but i wont touch unless im told to
<AlanBell> the ubuntu part of kubuntu sounds very different to the hinted plain ubuntu
<TheMuso> fair enough
<AlanBell> maco: are you using espeakedit?
<maco> no? 
<AlanBell> !info espeakedit
<maco> !find espeakedit
 * maco glares at the bots
<AlanBell> it is a phoneme editor thing
<AlanBell> and it doesn't work
<AlanBell> Wrong version of espeak-data at:
<AlanBell> /home/alan/espeak-data
<AlanBell> Version 0x14404 (expects 0x14300)
<AlanBell> didn't mean to paste that here, but anyhow, that is the error message I am filing a bug about
<TheMuso> espeakedit is an older version
<AlanBell> yeah, doesn't match the data file
<TheMuso> Right
<AlanBell> http://espeak.sourceforge.net/test/latest.html there is a new upstream version
<AlanBell> bug 860118
<ubot2> Launchpad bug 860118 in espeakedit "Wrong version of espeak-data at: ~/espeak-data Version 0x14404 (expects 0x14300)" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/860118
<maco> AlanBell, TheMuso: http://people.ubuntu.com/~maco.m/oneiric_ocelot.mp3
<TheMuso> maco: eeeeeeeeviiiil
<maco> :((
<maco> why evil?
<AlanBell> pretty good I think
<TheMuso> Oslot does not sound correct to me....
<AlanBell> bit oscilot rather than oscelot
<maco> mmk lemme mess with that one some more
<AlanBell> *masses* better than one irick oh slot as it was before :)
<maco> so do you mean it sounds like theres a i instead of a e?
<AlanBell> yes, a bit I think
<maco> hmrph i told it to use the e as in tech
<AlanBell> hmm, listening a few more times it sounds better
<AlanBell> I can't decide quite how it should sound
<maco> heh
<maco> for my accent, rhyme with lancelot
<maco> like an "uh" sound
<AlanBell> something like that
<maco> it doesnt sound much different to me when i give it the character for a schwa either
<maco> lets see whats available in the u section....
<AlanBell> could be more of a sort "o" or possibly "er" sound
<AlanBell> ocolot or ocerlot
<AlanBell> or ocalot
<maco> the er would be distinctly british, to my ear
<maco> i notice r sounds in a lot of places in brits' words where there's not an r written :P
 * AlanBell speaks the Queen's English
<AlanBell> anyhow I am off to bed now, thanks maco
<maco> good night
<maco> should i make a patch of this version or keep poking?
<TheMuso> I'll let you guys decide, because I am happy to live with whatever espeak says now, but I can understand the thought that it shoudl be different.
 * AlanBell says patch it maco (and goes to bed for real this time)
<maco> i think i got it to do something a bit closer to correct now
<maco> but my phone's voice recorder doesnt seem able to pick up the difference
<maco> -_- the debian/rules file doesnt include the command to rebuild the voices. 
<maco> TheMuso: should i be manually compiling the voice then committing the changed voice?
<TheMuso> maco: If you need to rebuild the voices, rebuild them.
<maco> ok
<maco> just surprised that the build didnt do that
<TheMuso> Right.
<TheMuso> maco: And thanks for your work on ubiquity as well. I'm about to build packages from the bzr branch to test.
<maco> oh thanks
<maco> i still dont know how to do that myself
<maco> there are still more accessible names to fill in in the ui files, but at least now they wont be stomped over
<TheMuso> Right.
<maco> hm this is odd
<maco> if i put the recompiled voice into espeak-data/ (because it insists on always recompiling in /usr/share....) bzr doesnt pick up that the file has changed at all
<TheMuso> You can tell espeak that the datadir is elsewhere, check the manpage/
<maco> ok
<TheMuso> maco: You might also want to back up the files that get rebuilt, and restore them on package clean.
<TheMuso> The clean target shoudl always get the package back to the state it is in when its unpacked.
<maco> the bzr branch contains the **_dict compiled voices, so i guess they're there when the package is unpacked too
<TheMuso> I don't work with the bzr branch.
<TheMuso> I maintain this with the pkg-a11y team in debian using git.
<TheMuso> But whatever works.
<maco> i just did an apt-get source and they're in there when i unpack too. so yeah, those binary-ish dictionaries are shipped precompiled
<maco> which seems a little odd to me
<maco> i can just do it as a debdiff if you prefer
<maco> either way itll be funny lookin with the binaryish thing being modified
<TheMuso> debdiff works.
<TheMuso> those pre-compiled files came in the upstrea zip file.
<maco> i need to learn not to take ibuprofen on an empty stomach. heartburn is not pleasant
#ubuntu-accessibility 2011-09-27
<TheMuso> Ouch.
<TheMuso> maco: Thanks for that, I'll probably set things up to rebuild the files instead, and only have a text diff for that change, as it will likely be cleaner.
<maco> ok. i wasnt sure about heavily modifying debian/rules just in ubuntu...seemed like merge hell
<maco> but you have debian access so you can avoid that i guess :P
<TheMuso> Yeah I don't mind doing that.
<TheMuso> ./c
<TheMuso> maco: Thanks for your work on espeak. I merged it into the git vcs branch for Ubuntu, as well as picking some other changes from Debian. I converted it to a patch, since Debian is using quilt v3 format, and I altered debian/rules to rebuild the english dictionary on package build.
<maco> TheMuso: you rock
 * AlanBell hugs maco and TheMuso 
<Fudge> what were you compiling espeak for guys
<AlanBell> Fudge: to add pronunciation hints for "oneiric" and "ocelot"
<Fudge> nice
<Fudge> AlanBell  is it usable yet, oneiric?
<AlanBell> it is getting there
<AlanBell> there are significant improvements in the ubiquity installer about to arrive (not sure they made todays build)
<AlanBell> there is a problem with unity and it reading out "button" for every app rather than the app name, but I think that will be fixed soon
<Fudge> gets me why ubuntu has gone down this unity path
<Fudge> think ill be happy with xfce is more accessible 
<AlanBell> what other burning issues are there for a11y in oneiric?
<AlanBell> the installer is becoming reasonable
<AlanBell> unity2d and orca are not exactly friends, but I think that might come together before release
<AlanBell> onboard can type into unity 2d but not 3d
<AlanBell> the release can pronounce it's own codename :)
<AlanBell> Pendulum: any other bit issues you know about?
<Pendulum> off the top of my head, no, but I haven't sorted through my bugmail recently ;-)
<AlanBell> charlie-tca: hi
<charlie-tca> Hello, AlanBell 
<AlanBell> what are the showstopper a11y bugs from your point of view now?
<AlanBell> the installer is getting better
<charlie-tca> I have to look again. Onboard is looking good. We still have at-spi crashing upgrades
<AlanBell> onboard works with unity 2d but not 3d (works for applications in 3d, just not the dash)
<charlie-tca> We can release note 2d for a11y
<AlanBell> unity 2d and the "everything is called button" bug might get fixed
<charlie-tca> That would be nice.
<charlie-tca> I will look the list over today and see, but I don't know of any show-stoppers yet.
<AlanBell> against all expectations this might come together as a decent release
<charlie-tca> That would be really good
<AlanBell> hopefully the LTS will be testable sooner so we are dealing with small bugs not show stoppers
<AlanBell> we should line up a blog article for release day
<charlie-tca> A blog article would be great. Especially with the Ctrl+s working
<charlie-tca> But I won't have time to write that one
<Pendulum> AlanBell: do you want to do it or I can?
<AlanBell> we can both do it
<AlanBell> but I need to do chargeable stuff this week :)
<joanie> is there a supersecret keystroke to get to the top panel to choose shutdown from the login screen?
<joanie> and then to give focus to the resulting window to choose restart/shutdown?
<charlie-tca> F10 should get you to and from the panel, arrow keys navigate across
<charlie-tca> Oh, login screen...
<charlie-tca> Maybe it will work, maybe we have to wait for TheMuso to tell us the real keys
<joanie> charlie-tca: thanks lemme try that. Although once I clicked the resulting dialog was still inaccessible
<joanie> f10 sweet
<joanie> thanks charlie-tca 
<charlie-tca> you are welcome
<joanie> that just leaves the dialog (the "are you sure you want to close all programs bla bla" one)
<joanie> oh nice, screen reader is in the Ubuntu/Unity accessibility menu :-)
<charlie-tca> I have issues with those dialogs
<charlie-tca> small gains, but important ones, too.
 * joanie is setting up a dual-boot system with Unity and Fedora so that she can test everything
<joanie> s/Unity/Ubuntu/ I need a nap it seems :-)
<TheMuso> Unfortunately lightdm is still lacking some code to actually launch orca. A bug has been filed, but not much has happened with it yet...
<TheMuso> Bug 850554
<ubot2> Launchpad bug 850554 in unity-greeter "Enabling screen reader and on-screen keyboard options from the a11y indicator do not start the application in question." [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/850554
<charlie-tca> well, that is not the best thing going then :(
<maco> crap
<maco> TheMuso: lightdm is in what language?
<TheMuso> maco: GObject C.
<TheMuso> Sorry, the greeter is in vala.
<TheMuso> So still GObject based.
<maco> hmm ive never done vala, but ive used gobject before...
<maco> i can attempt a look tonight
<TheMuso> Ok thanks. Bare in mind what I said in that bug.
<charlie-tca> And that brings me to a couple of other bugs, that I don't know how important it is to try and get fixed:
<charlie-tca> bug 856782
<ubot2> Launchpad bug 856782 in ubiquity "Prepare: Unable to read system requirements with a screen reader" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/856782
<charlie-tca> bug 856773
<ubot2> Launchpad bug 856773 in ubiquity "Welcome Screen: Cannot reach 'release notes' link with keyboard only." [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/856773
<charlie-tca> I think we can work around the second one by telling users to read the release notes before starting the install
<charlie-tca> TheMuso: Can you push bug 781385 through tonight?
<ubot2> Launchpad bug 781385 in ubiquity "Ubiquity GTK should have useful accessible names set in the Glade .ui files instead of using the variable names" [Medium,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/781385
<charlie-tca> It will be a lot better if we can get it through the queue
<TheMuso> charlie-tca: Its in ubiquity already afaik, i.e in the source tree. It just requires Colin or Evan to upload it.
<charlie-tca> Okay, I will ask them tomorrow to do that, then. It could sit through final if we don't insist on it, sometimes.
<AlanBell> charlie-tca: I don't consider 856782 or 856773 to be show stoppers
<AlanBell> 850554 is more so I think
<charlie-tca> Oh, okay. I don't think we have any more besides 850554 that are, then
<AlanBell> and for the lightdm bug, launching onboard is probably more critical than orca
<AlanBell> assuming a single user system
<TheMuso> AlanBell: I don't agree.
<TheMuso> We have had accessible login for a while no, it is a regression if we don't have it.
<charlie-tca> except if it doesn't autologin, in which case lightdm needs to kick orca
<charlie-tca> I think with unity 2d/3d/xfce/gnome, users need to be able to use orca anywhere
<TheMuso> charlie-tca: I feel that accessibility should be better next cycle, that is as long as DX/unity 2d devs don't go breaking things on us again.
<charlie-tca> I have hopes, too
<TheMuso> I will be doing more work to polish accessibility, both in the installer, and on the desktop in general.
<AlanBell> TheMuso: yes, I want both orca and onboard to be startable at lightdm and it would be a regression
<charlie-tca> If they don't break it completely, we should do well
<TheMuso> Agreed.
<TheMuso> My focus next cycle will be making things more accessible. I already have many a work item drafted for this.
<AlanBell> my point was if you don't have a hard keyboard you are totally stuffed when typing your password
<charlie-tca> My goal for accessibility should probably bringing the wiki up to date again
<AlanBell> I am hoping that next cycle we spend longer finding and fixing smaller bugs
<AlanBell> this time the huge issues have been getting in the way of finding the smaller ones
<charlie-tca> Yup, Hopefully, we have accessibility working from at least alpha1, which would give us more time to find and fix things
<AlanBell> I think the drums at the start of ubiquity are coming a bit early
<AlanBell> if you hit ctrl+s when you hear the drums orca doesn't start
<AlanBell> need to wait a few seconds before it is ready to listen to ctrl+s I think
<charlie-tca> Something we note if it doesn't get fixed?
<AlanBell> could be my machine being slow
<TheMuso> AlanBell: Ok, something to experiment with in the P cycle, its just a matter of moving the call to play the sound.
<TheMuso> AlanBell: Were you running from USB or CD?
<AlanBell> cd that time
<TheMuso> Right.
<TheMuso> I must admit I have only tested with USB recently.
<TheMuso> Hate wasting CD-Rs.
<charlie-tca> Might be good to file a bug for it, so we don't lose it
<TheMuso> I'll add it to my work items list
<AlanBell> I have about a thousand CDRWs
<TheMuso> As I am preparing a blueprint.
<charlie-tca> Okay
<AlanBell> I will try it again a few times, I have only observed it once
<charlie-tca> I will too, but not today
<AlanBell> maybe twice, I thought I had the wrong keystroke before but maybe it was a timing issue
#ubuntu-accessibility 2011-09-28
<AlanBell> charlie-tca: Bug #828356 
<ubot2> Launchpad bug 828356 in libunity "Support X-GNOME-Keywords" [High,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/828356
<charlie-tca> Thanks
<charlie-tca> Added to my tracking list
<AlanBell> it is fix released
<charlie-tca> Got an item for P-series though
<AlanBell> and that is the one about searching for "accessibility" in the dash, it should now find it
<charlie-tca> Maybe to insure it doesn't get broken for the LTS?
<charlie-tca> Oh, good!
<AlanBell> hmm, invalid for p-series
<AlanBell> oh, in for unity-lens-applications for p-series. I think that is a mistake
<AlanBell> bug 851694 remains the biggie, and didrocks is on the case of what is apparently the root cause
<ubot2> Launchpad bug 851694 in unity-2d "application icons in apps lens are all called "button" (dup-of: 854516)" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/851694
<ubot2> Launchpad bug 854516 in unity-2d "[launcher] LauncherItem's accessibilityName is only evaluated on runtime" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/854516
<charlie-tca> Okay, and ev said the change to names in ubiquity was pushed, but the build failed and they are working on it
<AlanBell> ok, I think we can be fairly sure that they will get ubiquity to build before release :)
<charlie-tca> yup, I just want to make sure the names got fixed in it
<maco> AlanBell: skaet put it in for both O and P in case unity folks were too busy fixing crashers to fix in O then itd be deferred to P. since didier got to it in O, its invalid for P (since now its fixed already)
<maco> charlie-tca: they arent necessarily *fixed* exactly...theyre just not variable names anymore. real usable names probably need to be set manually though
<maco> hmm unless i can figure a way to make add_widget set accessible_name = the text of the label...
<charlie-tca> Okay, Thanks for explaining that, maco 
<maco> tbh, im not sure whats going to happen with translations for them if they have to be set manually :-/
<charlie-tca> valid point
<charlie-tca> bug 855123 seems to be gaining in popularity
<ubot2> Launchpad bug 855123 in at-spi2-core "at-spi2-registryd crashed with signal 5 in g_type_create_instance()" [Medium,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/855123
<charlie-tca> I don't see what effect it has, other than at-spi2 crashes
<AlanBell> charlie-tca: Pendulum: DBO just told me that onboard can now type into the unity 3d dash, they got it in just before final freeze
<charlie-tca> That's great!
<AlanBell> bug 854516 seems like they have the code that will hopefully do it (orca not reading the 2d dash right) hope that makes the freeze or is an exception
<ubot2> Launchpad bug 854516 in unity-2d "[launcher] LauncherItem's accessibilityName is only evaluated on runtime" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/854516
<AlanBell> and the patch for orca reading the 3d dash didn't make feature freeze, but will be packaged as a PPA so we can test during the cycle
<charlie-tca> They could ask for FFe for orca. They do it for anything the normal person needs. One more symptom of the lowered importance for a11y
<Fudge> busy busy guys
<pleia2> wow, Fix Committed for bug 739812
<ubot2> Launchpad bug 739812 in unity "Must use hardware keyboard to perform search for applications in Unity" [High,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/739812
#ubuntu-accessibility 2011-09-29
<TheMuso> maco: Does the accessibility stuff in glade allow for setting relationships between labels and other widgets?
<AlanBell> bug 854516 is fix released, which in theory should be the "button" issue in the dash
<ubot2> Launchpad bug 854516 in unity-2d "[launcher] LauncherItem's accessibilityName is only evaluated on runtime" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/854516
<AlanBell> http://pad.ubuntu.com/oneirica11y
<AlanBell> Pendulum: charlie-tca: skaet: I am making a start on an article and release notes for accessibility http://pad.ubuntu.com/oneirica11y
<Pendulum> AlanBell: ta!
<AlanBell> we can nibble away at that up to the release day
<AlanBell> dunno if the last big fixes made it into todays live CD but they should be in tomorrow
<skaet> AlanBell, :)  looks good.    Would like to reference it from the overview release notes.  Is there a predicted link?
<AlanBell> http://ubuntuaccessibility.wordpress.com/2011/10/13/oneiric-ocelot
<skaet> AlanBell, coolio.  :)
<AlanBell> unless the "13" bit is wrong!
<skaet>   Thank you.
<skaet> :)
<maco> TheMuso: yes
<maco> TheMuso: thats why i got rid of the code that was doing it programmatically
<SeaJay> I just heard that Chromium is replacing Firefox as the default browser in Ubuntu 11.10. Is this the case? I'm getting mixed messages from my Google search.
<SeaJay> BTW, I didn't hear this from a trustworty source.
<SeaJay> My concern is that Chromium isn't accessible yet.
<charlie-tca> SeaJay: some of the derivatives have moved to Chromium, but Ubuntu will have firefox and thunderbird
<charlie-tca> SeaJay: to put your mind at ease, the changes documentated in https://wiki.ubuntu.com/OneiricOcelot/TechnicalOverview/Beta2 are what will be there.
<SeaJay> charlie-tca: Ah, thanks!
<charlie-tca> SeaJay: you are welcome
<AlanBell> updating my oneiric vm to try typing in the 3d dash with onboard
<maco> right yeah, should do the thing with the testing the new ubiquity tonight...
<charlie-tca> running screen-reader install now, here
<maco> i hope i didnt make it worse :-/
<charlie-tca> great! desktop showed up, compiz crashed
<charlie-tca> Oh, better now. desktop disappeared
<charlie-tca> Does unity respawn compiz? it has now crashed two times
<charlie-tca> Hm, fewer crashes than last time I did this
<maco> im interested in what the Wireless page of Ubiquity will do
<maco> i see GtkRadioButtons. they do not have atk "labelled-by" settings, BUT their labels are marked as properties of them rather than being separate labels (as was the problem with the partitioner)
<charlie-tca> No wireless here
<maco> oh yeah thatd probably require doing a hardware install huh? -_-
<maco> that might make it time for my netbook to get an upgrade
<charlie-tca> compiz crash shows fixed 5 hours ago, didn't make this image
 * AlanBell hits the compiz crash
<AlanBell> 2d still starts which is good
<AlanBell> searching for accessibility works
<TheMuso> Compiz... *sigh*
<AlanBell> quite spectacularly broken considering where we are in the cycle
<charlie-tca> but supposed to be fixed this morning
<charlie-tca> Hopefully, tomorrow's images will work
<AlanBell> they should have ubiquity in them at least
<TheMuso> There was a compiz update in the last 12 hours or so that fixed a *LOT* of crashers...
<charlie-tca> Yeah, according to the bug report, this crash was fixed about 6 hours ago
 * TheMuso checks the build status of the latest compiz upload.
<TheMuso> Built everywhere.
<TheMuso> And published.
<AlanBell> I think that fix broke it all
<charlie-tca> but no respin for the images
<TheMuso> But not on images yet.
<TheMuso> charlie-tca: They don't manually respin unless its a release time.
<charlie-tca> right
<AlanBell> bug 862743
<ubot2> Launchpad bug 862743 in unity "Desktop drawn with offset" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/862743
<AlanBell> that bug is causing screen corruption and offset desktops and in all probability the crashes we are seeing
<TheMuso> The compiz/nux/unity stack is too fragile for my liking.
<AlanBell> compiz used to be pretty solid, but now changing anything makes it crash and it takes out the whole desktop now
<TheMuso> Yep, used to be written in C, now in C++.
<TheMuso> Although the language probably doesn't have anything to do with it.
<TheMuso> However the rewrite certainly could introduce problems.
<AlanBell> bring back beryl :)
<TheMuso> lol
<AlanBell> ooh crap
<AlanBell> maximising onboard is a very very bad idea
<charlie-tca> Oh, yeah
<charlie-tca> There is a bug report about it. very difficult to resize now
<charlie-tca> AlanBell: Bug 859288
<ubot2> Launchpad bug 859288 in onboard "full-screen onboard keyboard commandeers entire desktop" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/859288
<AlanBell> that bug is pretty horrible
<charlie-tca> Well, at some point, those with the power need to realize the less time given to try a11y, the fewer bugs they get fixed concerning a11y
<AlanBell> oh no, now onboard starts full screen :(
<charlie-tca> That's what the bug report said, too
<AlanBell> however, on the plus side you can start onboard from lightdm and enter the password
<charlie-tca> but you can't easily get it to resize after it goes full size
<AlanBell> yeah, don't know what I am going to do about that!
<AlanBell> I guess when 3d works again I could resize it from there maybe
<AlanBell> screen reader from lightdm doesn't work
<AlanBell> high contrast is nice
<AlanBell> well I am off to bed, hopefully compiz will work tomorrow
<TheMuso> AlanBell: screen reader from lightdm is known.
<TheMuso> A bug against the greeter was filed a while back.
<TheMuso> I referred to that bug yesterday.
#ubuntu-accessibility 2011-09-30
<maco> hrmph. so ubiquity with those lines removed seems to read more useful stuff than before but also occasionally read things twice :-/
<maco> its reading the filler text instead of only the stuff from the templatey magic
<maco> or rather its reading the filler text *in addition*
<maco> i wonder if backing out the .ui changes and instead programmatically in ubiquity/plugins/ubi-*.py setting all the atk properties = the generated strings would be better. itd cover us for the translations front too
<TheMuso> maco: I thought thats what was done in the first place. I haven't looked at that code myself so I am talking from ignorance.
<AlanBell> just tried the installer from todays build, it works, could do with improvements on the lables of certain controls
<AlanBell> or possibly removing some of them
#ubuntu-accessibility 2012-09-24
<Fudge> TheMuso thinking about isntalling quantal again, any tips/advice?
<Fudge> installing
<AlanBell> Fudge: there was a GTK problem that meant ubiquity crashed on the first page turn after starting Orca, not sure that is fixed yet (but will try later)
<TheMuso> AlanBell: The fix should be in images as of Saturday.
<TheMuso> And it was an at-spi2-atk problem.
#ubuntu-accessibility 2012-09-25
<Fudge> thanks guys
<Fudge> its only tuesday though, wait till Saturday
<TheMuso> Fudge: I meant last saturday.
<Fudge> oh thanks TheMuso 
#ubuntu-accessibility 2012-09-26
<AlanBell> I tested the install quickly yesterday and it does let me run orca and proceed through with the keyboard without crashing
<Fudge> yay
#ubuntu-accessibility 2013-09-23
<zippo^> hi, do someone know where can I use a contrast (negative)?
<zippo^> I have solved . thx (-:
#ubuntu-accessibility 2013-09-25
<Texou> hi
<Texou> TheMuso: hi. Can you tell me about Ubuntu 13.4? is it accessible by default? is there some process to make it accessible? 
<Texou> and what about 13.10?
<TheMuso> Texou: Ubuntu 13.04 should be accessible so far as the install process goes, although I'd recommend using GNOME shell over Unity. Ubuntu 13.10 still feels rather rough, and has a few accessibility problems with the install, which I am attempting to rectify, but at the moment I'd say steer clear.
<Texou> ok
<Texou> well that's right I tried the default, then gnome-fallback, and it seems it works fine. However with Compiz alt-tab seems in conflict. 
<Texou> TheMuso: gnome-fallback works very good, is it maintained on 13.10? or will be dropped?
#ubuntu-accessibility 2014-09-22
<rrichmon> Hey all, I am looking for a way to write into ubuntu to have automatic keys for the zoom function. at the current time I am using compiz config manager, but it is a pain to repeat the process everyday. Does anyone know how to automate this?
