#xubuntu-devel 2010-11-15
<charlie-tca> Good morning
<davmor2> morning charlie-tca 
#xubuntu-devel 2010-11-16
<charlie-tca> Good morning
<davmor2> charlie-tca: morning you might have a bootable live cd unless you have an ati card with hdmi
<charlie-tca> heh
<charlie-tca> took the ati card out because it won't work in maverick and natty
<charlie-tca> unfortunately, the ubuntu live images wouldn't install yesterday
<davmor2> charlie-tca: yes todays seems to be fine till the kernel hits the ati hdmi
<charlie-tca> I think mr_pouit is still working on the Xfce4.7, too. That might kill Xubuntu desktop image yet
<charlie-tca> davmor2: no, I had the nvidia card installed. Also, it fails in Virtualbox, too
<davmor2> oh
<charlie-tca> My installs are hanging on trying to update network manager with static IP
<mr_pouit> no, if images are killed, it's not my fault yet :P
<charlie-tca> Whew! I will try them today then.
<charlie-tca> :-)
<ochosi> mr_pouit: i can't wait for you to break the images ;)
<davmor2> charlie-tca: I bet it is his fault really ;)
<charlie-tca> davmor2: agreed. You know those devs too, huh?
<davmor2> Oh yes
<charlie-tca> Even if it is not his fault, we can blame mr_pouit , right? ;-)
<davmor2> charlie-tca: of course we are testers he's the fixer right it's only fair :D 
<mr_pouit> well, if you really insist, I can start uploading xfce4-panel juste before the alpha 1
<mr_pouit> so everything will be broken, and you will be able to blame me as much as you like :P
<davmor2> mr_pouit: haha
 * charlie-tca thinks that it is the testers decision to blame the people who break things. (even when it is wrong) :-)
<davmor2> charlie-tca: don't get saying things like that it's us that breaks it ;)
<charlie-tca> Okay, I take it back
<charlie-tca> Oh, I did word that wrong, I see. ;-)
<mr_pouit> well, testers break things, because as long as it's not tested, it's not broken, right?
 * mr_pouit hides
 * charlie-tca looking behind the boxes for mr_pouit 
<charlie-tca> davmor2: seems like natty desktop images do not see the connection when using the static IP address. I get a "X" on "is connected to the internet"
<davmor2> charlie-tca: I got a nice boot splash but nothing else on my nvidia box 
<charlie-tca> ooops, 
 * charlie-tca kicks the boxes to find mr_pouit 
* You're now known as ubuntulog
* You're now known as ubuntulog_
* You're now known as ubuntulog
#xubuntu-devel 2010-11-17
<charlie-tca> Good morning
<szpuni> hey
<charlie-tca> QA meeting in #ubuntu-quality in 10 minutes
#xubuntu-devel 2010-11-18
<charlie-tca> Good morning
<davmor2> morning charlie-tca 
<charlie-tca> another great day!
<davmor2> that's one way you could describe it
<charlie-tca> Got up on the green side of the grass again. Got to be good... ;-)
<davmor2> charlie-tca: :)  Good one
<TheSheep> grass has green side?
<charlie-tca> Well, sometimes. If you get up on the dirty side, you ain't gonna have a good day :-)
<TheSheep> gotta get there one day
<charlie-tca> Xubuntu Community Meeting in #ubuntu-meeting in about 10 minutes; Agenda is at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Meetings
<charlie-tca> mr_pouit, cody-somerville, ochosi  : meeting time
<mr_pouit> (got to go, dinner time)
<mhall119> are gnome-panel applets compatible with xfpanel?
<charlie-tca> Thanks, mr_pouit 
<charlie-tca> mhall119: only by installing xfapplet
<mhall119> ok
<charlie-tca> well, actually, I guess that should have been "yes"
<mhall119> I'm going to try and make a new launcher applet for Qimo, would like it to work in both
<mhall119> hmmm, that might pull in a lot of dependencies
<mhall119> know of any good tutorials for writing Xfce panel applets in Python?
<vinnl> I'd prefer not to use xfapplet, it's quite resource-heavy
<mhall119> alternately, I may just write a stand-alone launcher using PyGTK
<mhall119> rather than a panel applet
<mhall119> but that seems like more work
<charlie-tca> I guess I will get better at that meeting thing, huh?
<vinnl> Hehe :)
<mhall119> you did fine
<vinnl> Proves that practice makes perfect
<charlie-tca> well, at least practice makes it easier
<vinnl> I can imagine IRC meetings to be a lot more difficult than real-life meetings
<vinnl> Mostly because you can't see whether someone wants to say something
<charlie-tca> yeah, that too. That's why there are delays too. You can't really tell if some one is typing a response out
<micahg> charlie-tca: can you add the Xubuntu meetings to the Fridge?
<charlie-tca> doesn't seem like it. I added them following the directions at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Fridge/Calendar
<charlie-tca> but they only show up in google calendar, not on the fridge itself
<micahg> charlie-tca: when?  it usually takes a day or 2
<charlie-tca> a week ago
<micahg> charlie-tca: check with nhandler then
<charlie-tca> okay. I can do that
<micahg> I wanted to attend, but I had a conflicting meeting
<charlie-tca> Sorry about that. the good news - We will have meeting each week at the same time now
<micahg> great
<micahg> I hope to be able to start helping in January
<charlie-tca> Great!
<charlie-tca> help is welcome
<micahg> maybe earlier if it's simple merges
<micahg> mr_pouit: ^^^
<charlie-tca> he's hiding now. It is midnight there for him
<micahg> ok
#xubuntu-devel 2010-11-19
<charlie-tca> mr_pouit: why do we not start  '/usr/lib/at-spi/at-spi-registryd' during startup? It is required by most of the accessibility applications, but is not even in the path so must be manually started.
<charlie-tca> Otherwise the accessibility apps fail to work
<charlie-tca> Good morning
<charlie-tca> Could a developer look at bug 626143 please
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 626143 in xfce4-panel (Ubuntu) "xfce4-panel crashed with SIGSEGV in SmcRequestSaveYourself()" [Medium,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/626143
<davmor2> morning charlie-tca 
<charlie-tca> Hello, davmor2 
<davmor2> charlie-tca: have you had a successful install yet?
<charlie-tca> Only with the alternate image
<davmor2> charlie-tca: and has it actually started up mine hang on plymouth to gdm 
<charlie-tca> and I have to burn to dvd everyday to try and test
<davmor2> so I just get the plymouth Ubunutu dots cycling
<charlie-tca> yes, after several attempts, I got one to login completely
<davmor2> charlie-tca: cool :)  Just me then :D
<charlie-tca> It doesn't really work yet, huh?
<mr_pouit> charlie-tca: yeah, I think this is this bug again (libxfcegui4 doing something weird related to session management)
<charlie-tca> Thank, mr_pouit 
<charlie-tca> davmor2: Have you filed any bug on the install issue?
<davmor2> I let them know on #ubuntu-release and I got the m-a bug finally reported, I'm going to try for the general install issue soon-ish
<davmor2> charlie-tca: crazy busy at the minute :(
<charlie-tca> Okay
<charlie-tca> I opened the can of worms in the release meeting :-)
<charlie-tca> hm, maybe that was the wrong meeting to bring it up in
<davmor2> no it's to do with releases right :D
<charlie-tca> Oh, good. Maybe we will be able to install next week then
#xubuntu-devel 2010-11-21
<charlie-tca> Good morning
<micahg> mr_pouit: I was hoping to start getting involved in xubuntu development, is there stuff I can help with in UBuntu?
<mr_pouit> yeah, sure, most of the fun will start after I upload xfce4-panel
<mr_pouit> put it won't happen before alpha1, because it breaks everything
<mr_pouit> s/put/but/
<micahg> mr_pouit: ok, I can't commit a significant amount of time at the moment, but can help with merges/syncs from Universe
<charlie-tca> mr_pouit: I can now reproduce the disappearing panel anytime
<charlie-tca> even in natty
<micahg> s/from/in
<micahg> mr_pouit: I'm subscribe to the pkg-xfce list in Debian and am happy to keep natty in sync with the latest uploads to Debian if that helps any
<mr_pouit> micahg: okay, everything is already in the pkg-xfce svn repo, so it will only need to import that, and have some fun with gold & as-needed
<mr_pouit> micahg: that's why I'm using -0faksync1, because it's easy to differentiate what is "long-term ubuntu changes" and the rest
<mr_pouit> charlie-tca: mmh, I guess we'll have to live with it until the alpha1. After that I'll upload xfce4-panel 4.7 which might fix that
<charlie-tca> Hoping
<mr_pouit> charlie-tca: or we can decide not to release this alpha 1, in which case I upload much sooner
<micahg> mr_pouit: yeah, but that's not what it's meant for, also, if you're clear in the changelog, the person doing the merge next time will know to sync
<charlie-tca> Would we be better off not to release alpha1? It gives us an opportunity to make sure everything is working. 
<micahg> mr_pouit: is most of the work then uploading new versions from pkg-xfce?
<mr_pouit> micahg: well, I don't really trust "the person doing the next merge" (because most uploaders do not bother getting in touch with the xubuntu team)
<micahg> directly to Ubuntu and not through Debian
<micahg> mr_pouit: that's an issue, this early in the cycle, anyone doing the merge should contact the TIL person
<charlie-tca> mr_pouit: we are planning to roll out the Xubuntu 10.04.2 release, too
<charlie-tca> scheduled for February 17
<mr_pouit> micahg: yeah, I worked directly with the debian maintainer to put everything in their svn
<micahg> mr_pouit: and if that's not happening, that should be brought up on the -motu list and/or IRC channel
<mr_pouit> micahg: it's not a big deal, I don't think that's worth the pain (and when it is autosynced, 'motu' is set as a maintainer and not 'xubuntu-team', so I can't blame him). But e.g. https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/natty-changes/2010-November/001152.html and https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/natty-changes/2010-November/001658.html : I wasn't contacted before the upload, and I would've told him that he's wasting his time, because everything wil
<micahg> fun, 2 MOTUs
<micahg> mr_pouit: also, it's not ubuntu-dev and not motu as contact
<micahg> *now
<mr_pouit> ah yeah right
<micahg> mr_pouit: right, but they can be reminded of the courtesy to ask first
<micahg> it's more important in this case since they're flavour packages
<micahg> mr_pouit: I can send a generic e-mail to the MOTU list reminding people to contact the TIL person before doing a merge/sync
<micahg> mr_pouit: eventually, this'll be sorted out with the archive reorganization
<micahg> MOTU will only be able to upload unseeded packages
<micahg> mr_pouit: anyways, I can do simple things now, maybe more starting in January
<mr_pouit> micahg: you can look at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Roadmap/Specifications/Natty/Xfce4.8
<mr_pouit> I try to keep it up-to-date
<mr_pouit> most of the things are blocked by xfce4-panel (and so the alpha1), so there's not much to do now, unless if you want to start preparing panel-plugins somewhere?
<micahg> mr_pouit: as in prepare a rebuild of all of them for after the new panel is uploaded?
<mr_pouit> yeah, as long as you put your name on the wiki page so we don't do duplicate work, I'm fine
<micahg> mr_pouit: if it helps you, I'm happy to do it
<mr_pouit> if you don't like panel plugins, there are a few standalone apps that are simpler, e.g. ristretto & xfce4-volumed
<mr_pouit> but no need to rush until alpha 1, so don't feel forced to do it immediately
<micahg> mr_pouit: at what point do you think natty will be stable enough for daily Xubuntu usage?
<charlie-tca> micahg: I am using it daily already
<micahg> charlie-tca: it hasn't started breaking yet :)
<charlie-tca> I upgraded from maverick.
<charlie-tca> No, it should break all the way to the RC
<charlie-tca> Only thing I don't understand is why ff has not upgraded to 4.0. It is already in the images
<micahg> I usually upgrade around beta since all the major changes are in place and I don't expect non-responsive system breakage
<micahg> charlie-tca: local mirror?
<charlie-tca> nope
<charlie-tca> us.archives
 * micahg needs to update the firefox-next PPA for FF 4.0 beta 7
<charlie-tca> same as the cd
<charlie-tca> well, actually, same sources.list as after installing from the alternate image
<mr_pouit> micahg: xfce 4.7.x is already rather "stable". And the panel breakge will only annoy stupid people ignoring warnings from their package manager (because the old plugins will conflict with the new panel, everything will be kept, unless you force a dist-upgrade)
<mr_pouit> but I'm hoping we'll have rebuilt everything for the 2nd alpha
<mr_pouit> (I guess the conflicts will be iso generation though, so potentially no daily image for more than a month)
<mr_pouit> s/be/break/
<micahg> mr_pouit: ok, so I'll plan on upgrading as soon as they get all the X/Mesa changes in
<micahg> that didn't happen right before beta for maverick
<micahg> *until
<micahg> mr_pouit: so, I have to port the xul rdepends this cycle as well, so I don't know how much time I'll have, I do want to help though, I guess I should chat with you again after alpha 1
<mr_pouit> no problem :)
<micahg> mr_pouit: feel free to ping me if there's something you think you can easily offload in the mean tiem
<micahg> *time
#xubuntu-devel 2011-11-14
<GridCube> ochosi, one of madnick's awesome mockup greeters had a nice clock like that, it also said the version of ubuntu you where using i remember :P
<madnick> I had? :P
<GridCube> you did
<GridCube> remember back in the day, i made a silly mspaint mockup too :P
<madnick> I will take your word for it, I acctually don't have access to my old ones
<madnick> My sister has the USB drive :P
<madnick> http://www.madnick.se/~madnick/test-draft-res.png
<madnick> http://www.madnick.se/~madnick/test-draft2.png
<GridCube> those are new ones
<madnick> yeah :P
<GridCube> great i start making a bugreport and software-center decides to work
<GridCube> well it did not
<GridCube> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/software-center/+bug/890025
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 890025 in software-center (Ubuntu) "Ubuntu software-center crashes on xubuntu Oneiric whit no apparent reason just stays grey" [Undecided,New]
<GridCube> damn me and whit
<knome> mr_pouit, micahg_: http://paste.ubuntu.com/737846/
<knome> mr_pouit, micahg_: 'sudo apt-get install alacarte'
<micahg_> knome: yes?  that's why we don't seed it :)
<knome> what's the alternative?
<knome> we tell the people you can edit menus in 11.10, but the fallback is that you need to install compiz?
<micahg_> not sure
 * micahg_ wonders if obmenu would work in xfce
<knome> does it support the fd.org spec?
<micahg_> no idea, just found it
<micahg_> ah, no, it's openbox specific
<knome> mmh :|
<knome> i'll be off for today
<knome> see you later!
<mr_pouit> micahg_: hey, do you have an oneiric system to test exo from -proposed? (Bug #878069) I uploaded it, so I think I can't set it to verification-done myself ;-)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 878069 in exo (Ubuntu Oneiric) "Mailto helpers broken on !i386 in 0.6.2-2" [High,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/878069
<ochosi> mr_pouit: does it make sense to test it on 64bit oneiric?
<mr_pouit> ochosi: yes, it's only broken on amd64, i386 will work fine
<mr_pouit> most of the helpers should be broen on amd64 in oneiric, and they should work again with the -proposed package
<micahg_> mr_pouit: yeah, can try later this week
<mr_pouit> thanks!
<ochosi> mr_pouit: if the package is already in proposed, i'll quickly switch mirrors and then upgrade and let you know
<ochosi> mr_pouit: seems like the package isn't there yet (using main mirror)
<micahg_> ochosi: mr_pouit: exo is stuck in binary new
<ochosi> oh, ok
<knome> i just asked in #ubuntu-website and they told the team reports are abandoned until somebody takes care of the project.
<knome> ...
<madnick> All team reports?
<knome> all team reports.
<astraljava> Well, it sounded too good to be true in the first place.
<knome> mmh. well, i suppose it worked for some time...
<Unit193> I seemed to have missed something
<knome> 13:01  knome: i just asked in #ubuntu-website and they told the team reports  are abandoned until somebody takes care of the project.
<Unit193> Dang
<knome> Unit193, want to start caring after it?
<Unit193> I don't fully know what that is
<knome> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BuildingCommunity/TeamReporting
<ochosi> meh, i was pretty sure that the gtk3-version of thewidgetfactory gets shipped in oneiric, but it seems like it's gtk2 :/
<plantoschka> is 12.04 going to use xfce 4.10 ?
<baizon> if 4.10 will be released until then
<baizon> plantoschka: http://wiki.xfce.org/releng/4.10/roadmap
<Unit193> They aren't on schedule, so my guess is no
<plantoschka> march should be ok?
<baizon> yes but then xubuntu will be in beta status
<baizon> so its too late then
<baizon> i think 4.10 will be on 12.10
<plantoschka> ok
<baizon> but who knows :)
<plantoschka> probably the better decision for a LTS
<baizon> you can ask on feb
<ochosi> i think there's no way that 4.10 will land in 12.04
<Unit193> That's what I thought, but I'm just a random
<pleia2> knome: btw, 22UTC on Saturday would be great for the site sprint, turns out I have a cousin from far away in town on Saturday and she wants to do lunch before that ;)
<astraljava> Hey guys, my Studio installation Indicator Plugin doesn't show the volume icon. Since I still know very little of XFCE, can anyone hazard a guess as to why is that?
<knome> pleia2, right. :)
#xubuntu-devel 2011-11-15
<pleia2> knome: know if you're available then? if so I can take a lead here and announce it and stuff
<knome> pleia2, yeah, actually i think i will
<knome> pleia2, earlier will work too if it works for you :)
<knome> pleia2, if not, no problem..
<pleia2> my lunch is at least until 2100, so I don't want to cut it too close
<knome> yeah
<ochosi> astraljava: do you already have the volume-indicator problem figured out?
<knome> 22UTC is okay
<astraljava> ochosi: No, I got caught off, because jussi needed attention. (they're actually both here overnight)
<pleia2> knome: ok, I'll draft up an announcement now
<knome> ohh, tell the chipmunk-laughter guy "hey" from me
<knome> pleia2, great, thanks for taking the task :)
<ochosi> astraljava: ah right :)
<ochosi> astraljava: do you have the indicator-sound package installed?
<astraljava> ochosi: Let me check.
<astraljava> ochosi: Yes, but not the -gtk2.
<ochosi> i think you need -gtk2
<ochosi> gtk3 won't work with xfce's panel
<astraljava> ochosi: Yep, that was it. Thanks again! You spoil me to death.
<ochosi> ;)
<knome> ochosi, yeah, don't give the dog crackers so often.
<ochosi> btw, i just started porting bluebird to gtk3 :D
<knome> hah, nice
<ochosi> (uploading a screenshot atm)
<knome> then add yourself as the assignee :P
<ochosi> so i guess you can assign me to that one ;)
<ochosi> k, will do
<knome> i'm going already ;)
<knome> see you!
<ochosi> okeydokey â sleep well
<ScottL> i see we need the indicator-sound-gtk2 package in oneiric, i'm guessing we should do an SRU if we want an update to our -desktop metapackage to be pushed to our users?
<astraljava> ScottL: See -motu.
<madnick> oooh
<madnick> I see what Ubuntu did
<knome> hm?
<madnick> http://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-VE0o85yemCQ/TnmeMDCr3MI/AAAAAAAAAbU/4gWKWDQJSww/s1600/AutoLogin2.png
<knome> mmh
<madnick> There is really 4 fields
<madnick> that are relevant, for the common user
<knome> true
<madnick> autologin-user=NAME autologin-user-timeout=n user-session=session greeter-session=greetername
<madnick> since it uses the common configuration format
<knome> i don't think the timeout is important for a common user
<madnick> okay
<knome> i'd say let's use a sane default
<knome> but let's discuss that too at the meeting
<knome> just my opinion..
<madnick> for most people that is probably 0 :P
<madnick> okay
<madnick> yes
<knome> yeah
<knome> or sth like 5
<knome> grub'ish
<knome> also hmm
<knome> greeter-session could be just our session ;P
<madnick> when I use autologin, like on my HDMI computer hooked to the TV; i dont want to be promopted .P
<madnick> yes
<knome> and user-session probably locked to xubuntu...
<knome> well, i don't know about that
<knome> could be under advanced options
<knome> i was thinking that if we add the option to our greeter
<madnick> :)
<knome> just a simple checkbox would do
<madnick> True, if someone can install another greeter, they need to poke config files anyways
<knome> yup
<madnick> However. It really eliminates security of the login screen :P
<knome> how?
<madnick> sorta makes it just a "pick user"
<knome> if you need to write the pass too
<knome> for the setting to be saved
<madnick> I suppose
<knome> well definitely
<knome> so, if you need a pass to change it...
<madnick> yeah
<madnick> I can't really think very well, been up since you said good night ;)
<madnick> Ofc it should be like that
<knome> heh
<knome> ;)
<knome> if you want to change the autologin'd suser
<knome> *user
<knome> do you need only the new users pass?
<madnick> currently?
<ochosi> hm, sorry to step in so uninformed, but is there already a way to configure the auto/login behavior of lightdm?
<ochosi> (i mean: gui frontend)
<madnick> It would probably make sense to make the one that checks the box be auto login user, on effective login
<madnick> ochosi: no
<madnick> So he would enter pass
<knome> madnick, but doesn't need the "permission" of the previous autologged user?
<ochosi> madnick: do you know whether anything like that is planned by ubuntu? cause if not maybe we could hack something small together (at least that sounds like a roadmap-item to me)
<knome> ochosi, it IS on the roadmap
<madnick> knome: no, becauase its a centralized configuration file
<madnick> ochosi: ubuntu has it
<madnick> but in their user manager
<knome> madnick, editing it usually needs admin rights?
<ochosi> knome: oh :)
<knome> err, sudo?
<madnick> knome: im pretty sure lightdm has good enough permissions 
<knome> madnick, i'm sure, but what if the user logging in doesn't?
<madnick> well, it would be changed by the greeter
<knome> madnick, let me try to explain
<knome> user MASTER is a sudoer
<knome> MASTER sets him to be the autologged user
<knome> then logs out
<knome> user SLAVE is not a sudoer
<knome> user SLAVE tries to set himself as autologged
<knome> will he be able, if editing the conf file usually needs sudo rights?
<madnick> well thats up to us, but the current thought im playing with is yes he would
<knome> why?
<knome> i don't think he should...
<knome> if the config file is not open for him to edit manually
<madnick> Well, I suppose we can just not allow him then :P
<knome> then it shouldn't be open for him to edit it via lightdm either
<knome> though that is a problem
<knome> if you want a non-sudoer to be logged in automatically for security issues
<knome> you can't
<madnick> Hm
<madnick> So we do and we damned we damned if we dont
<knome> haha
<knome> ;)
<knome> this shouts for a GUI
<madnick> true
<knome> in non-greeter
<knome> because then it's okay as long as you are a sudoer, and have verified that
<madnick> But I dont belive in letting users have ALL the options of the config file
<knome> nope
<knome> just the basic stuff
<madnick> yeah
<madnick> But making a GUI
<madnick> In the Settings
<madnick> Im not 100% sure how we add things into that
<madnick> because the its not windowed
<knome> mm
<knome> there is a way
<knome> i know that
<madnick> Okay
<madnick> We could simply add it to the settings menu :P
<madnick> Its where blueman is at
<knome> ugh
<knome> well, the settings manager is pluggable
<knome> ask #xfce-dev
<ochosi> yeah, having it in the settings-manager makes a lot more sense to me
<knome> yeah
<madnick> Yes, I just did not know it was possible :P I figured "if blueman isnt there, we probably could not add it, otherwise we would"
<knome> :P
<knome> it is possible
<ochosi> yeah, well the general problem is that the settings-manager is now kinda clean, but it can get messy real quick if you add too much 
<ochosi> we had a discussion with nick on the xfce-dev ml about that a while ago
<knome> yeah, but this should be added definitely
<ochosi> yup
<madnick> I was just looking at the settings screen, one would need to use GTK normal controllers :|
<madnick> otherwise it wont fit in :P
<madnick> visually*
<ochosi> ideally it would be like the other pluggable dialogs and have the "back" button
<knome> madnick, problems?
<madnick> http://www.madnick.se/~madnick/plugin.png
<madnick> nope but
<madnick> Im slow today
<knome> madnick, ++
<madnick> http://www.madnick.se/~madnick/ldm.png
<madnick> heh, i know, its terrible, but i need to sleep :P atleast it works 
<madnick> I will need some stuff, like icons
<madnick> if we decide to do this
<ochosi> madnick: awesome! if you want we can discuss the layout of the preferences dialog together
#xubuntu-devel 2011-11-16
<pleia2> knome: see draft announcement? any comments?
<knome> just a sec
<knome> oh right
<knome> what was a proposed announcement
<knome> that's fine by me
<knome> :D
<pleia2> haha, ok cool
<pleia2> announcing now
<knome> great
#xubuntu-devel 2011-11-17
<Inst1nct> Guys I need some help
<Inst1nct> guidance in fact
<knome> hmmh?
<Inst1nct> Im a first year computer science student
<Inst1nct> and I'm currently learning JAVA and also some ethical hacking on the side
<Inst1nct> but I want to really get involved with making programs, rather than typical exercises in a given textbook
<knome> right :)
<Inst1nct> where do I start?
<Inst1nct> especially if I want to code for an os
<knome> hanging around this channel and subscribing our developer mailing list should be a good start on getting to know open source communities
<knome> do you have any experience on working on code with others?
<Inst1nct> I've subscribed to the mailing list and will save this channel with many others
<Inst1nct> never before
<knome> okay
<Inst1nct> I've tried to start a beginners java group to work on a project
<Inst1nct> but that hasn't got far
<Inst1nct> basically, i want to get stuck in but dont know where to begin
<Inst1nct> :(
<knome> mmh. there should be some low-hanging fruit in (x)ubuntu
<micahg> Inst1nct: if you're into java, you might want to check out the eclipse project  http://eclipse.org/
<knome> micahg, can you help Inst1nct to get a quick overview of the (x)ubuntu developer stuff?
<Inst1nct> I'm not really into JAVA, just been learning it
<Inst1nct> I want to code for something, and for an OS it's C right
<Inst1nct> ?
<micahg> Inst1nct: C, C++, Python, Vala
<micahg> Inst1nct: there are some java based apps as well, we (xubuntu) just don't ship any by default AFAIK
<knome> not that i know of either
<Inst1nct> sweet, so where do I start, I mean im fairly familiar with programming with regard to concepts and its syntax
<Inst1nct> just getting bored of basic console exercises
<micahg> I actually don't have a lot of time this week, next week I could talk you through some of it, in the mean time, there's the Debian Java team (which there are people from Ubuntu involved in as well): http://wiki.debian.org/Teams/JavaPackaging
<Inst1nct> great, is there anyway I can contact you when you're free
<micahg> that's if you want java, we could use help fixing various bugs as well, but that would be in some of those other langauges
<Inst1nct> or will you be here
<micahg> Inst1nct: I'm usually here most of the time, just a ping next week some time would be fine
<Inst1nct> thanks for the help
<knome> Inst1nct, just pop in the channel and type his nick every 5 secods until he appears;)
<knome> just kidding, just type it once :P
<Inst1nct> lol
<Inst1nct> forgive me for being intrusive but would you guys mind telling me a bit about your background, with regard to what you've studied and projects that you've worked on
<Inst1nct> I learn a lot from others experiences
<knome> i actually studied nothing related to computers, but i've been working with FOSS projects since 2006
<Inst1nct> whats FOSS?
<knome> "free and open source software"
<Inst1nct> how did you manage to get involved and what do the projects involve
<Inst1nct> sorry for all the questions
<knome> i started with amarok, a media player for kde
<knome> in the beginning, i just did a lot of user support
<knome> (in irc)
<knome> later, i joined the marketing team, and worked on artwork etc.
<Inst1nct> sounds good
<knome> in 2008, i started working with xubuntu as the marketing lead
<Inst1nct> seems like i definitely should stick around here
<knome> and did all kinds of things, including the visual appearance of xubuntu (themes, wallpapers, etc)
<Inst1nct> did that involved designing or more consulting
<knome> designing mostly, but also working with others and kind of consulting both ways
<knome> last year, i founded the shimmer project (shimmerproject.org) to keep on making FOSS beautiful - but not limited to xubuntu only
<knome> basically we've built three themes, and a gmusicbrowser layout
<knome> last month i was elected as the new xubuntu project lead, and right now i'm trying to make things rolling
<Inst1nct> wow
<Inst1nct> quite amazing
<knome> there's a bit longer bio at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/PasiLallinaho/XPL
<Inst1nct> im on the website now
<Inst1nct> are these all themes that can be incorporated in linux
<knome> yes, in xfce
<knome> if you have xubuntu installed, they are all installed by default too
<knome> they not only can be incorporated in linux, they are specifically designed for linux ;)
<Inst1nct> nice
<Inst1nct> thats great
<knome> yup
<Inst1nct> im gonna get some sleep now, ill be back around again, thanks for all the help
<knome> sure
<knome> see you around
<Inst1nct> bye
<knome> i just organized the roadmap items by importance
<knome> o hai scott-work 
<scott-work> hi knome 
<scott-work> i hope to have a list today of the website stuff
<knome> great
<scott-work> knome: how are you today by the way?
<knome> fine!
<scott-work> you were up quite late yesterday
<knome> i've been working with the xubuntu roadmap/blueprint stuff
<knome> only 5am :P
<knome> (too late whatsoever)
<scott-work> lol, that's almost the time i get up in the mornings though :P
<knome> yeah, i suppose my rhythm is a bit different from the normal one
<knome> but remind you once again, i'm an entrepreneur :P
<knome> i did wake up at about 11am though, so not too late
<knome> usually i wake up between noon and 2pm, regardless when i went to bed
<knome> sleeping on the mornings is the best
<knome> or "in the morning", whatever :P
<knome> being able to think "whatever" in the bed and decide to sleep a few more hours is a good runner-up
<scott-work> aye
<scott-work> i'm not built like that, i get up around 6 am whether i want to or not really
<scott-work> even if i go to bed at 2am
<scott-work> it just means i'll be super tired and go to bed earlier the next next
<scott-work> and sadly it seems i do better work in the morning though, because after being at work all day and solving crappy propblems left behind because people don't think through stuff kinds burns me out for the evening
<scott-work> evenings
<scott-work> which is kinda nice on tuesdays and thursdays when i get my daughter on the bus, i get up at six and have at least an hour to do ubuntu studio stuff before i even have to get her up ;)
<knome> mmh
<knome> what do you do for living btw?
<scott-work> i'm a supervisor for an engineering department
<scott-work> but i'm also responsible for training people as i am the second most experienced person in the department
<astraljava> In other words, a kindergarten teacher.
<scott-work> lol
<scott-work> i am responsible for the quality of the department, both on a microscale and a macroscale
<astraljava> Nice.
<scott-work> meaning, that i have to qualify the quality of the shop drawings we issue but also need to be involved in the overall scope and direction of the project as well
<scott-work> i don't do this for _every_ job, some are simply repititions of things we have many, many times before...those i might spot check from time to time
<scott-work> but all the "new and interesting" jobs i usually get involved fairly heavily until we have a very clear direction and even then i'll probably check many things at the end
<knome> hah
<knome> what are you engineering? :P
<scott-work> sorry if i sound so negative right now, i'm just worn down and disappointed with some of the problems because i thought we were doing better to address some of these issues :/
<scott-work> we design, build, and install aluminum structures
<scott-work> mainly we cover petroleum product tanks (the big steel round tanks)
<scott-work> but we also cover quite a bit of waste water tanks (usually concrete tanks)
<scott-work> we also have some architectural applications as well
<scott-work> you can see pictures at our website: http://www.cstindustries.com/cst-covers/
<knome> no problem
<knome> ugh
<knome> the website fails without js
<knome> i can fix that for a modest prive
<knome> *price
<knome> ;)
<knome> i'll be off. need to meet a friend who's going to contribute to xubuntu sooner than he thinks ;)
<scott-work> lol, good luck :)
<knome> hah
<knome> he's already an assignee in one of our roadmap items :D
<knome> he said he could do it, though, so no forcing
<knome> ;)
<knome> hmm.
<knome> i wonder what's the easiest way to copy some FF bookmarks to an another machine.
<madnick> mozilla symc
<madnick> sync
<madnick> :P
<knome> how long does it take to set that up?
<madnick> or export > scp :P
<knome> i want to migrate like 4 urls, once
<scott-work> i was using xmarks but i've starting using sync as well, although it did not behave quite as i expected
<knome> i think i'll just type the four urls...
<knome> madnick, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/WorkItemsHowto#Subcycle_tracking
<knome> madnick, if you want to be more *precise*
<madnick> knome: oh
<madnick> Well, to be *precise* I think i need to think about those items
<knome> ;]
<knome> i just set fixing greybird gtk3 issues and releasing the new website as essential items for the cycle
<madnick> knome: should this be done today? its getting kinda late for me :P
<knome> nope.
<knome> next thursday is the ubuntu planning freeze afaik
<madnick> okay
<knome> yeah, feature definition freeze nov 24
<scott-work> ochosi: i'm going to have my way with the ubuntu studio theme update starting at the end of this week, i'll start doing some research into both ubuntu studio and xubuntu packages but i'm sure i will still need your help
<scott-work> anybody know of a good and easy way forme to maintain a public "to do" list for myself?
<scott-work> i'd like a very accessible way for me to maintain my "to do" list but also have it public so everyone can see it as well
<astraljava> Sounds like a job for a wiki.
<ochosi> scott-work: studio-theme-update == upload greybird there?
<ochosi> madnick: how's your settings ui going?
<micahg> ochosi: umm, I think we'd prefer one copy of greybird in the archive (dependency on murrine-themes should be sufficient)
<ochosi> micahg: sure, i'm fine with anything, just wanted to know where he'd want my help :)
<scott-work> astraljava: i had thought about that, but i was kinda hoping it woudl be public but provide for capability for other to change it though ;)
<scott-work> ochosi: well, there's also probably changes to -default-settings as well and the panel layout changes as well
<scott-work> it may not be as bad as i'm expecting, but probably more involved that most expect
<scott-work> i also worry that our settings and theme packages are not 1:1
<scott-work> meaning i can't simply copy the theme package wholesale and replace our theme package, perhaps the panel layout needs to go int there (or not)
<ochosi> scott-work: right, i guess we can try to figure that out something with the packagers...
<scott-work> knome: don't forget to email the release team per kate's emal (i haven't done it either yet but will later today)
<knome> scott-work, blah
<knome> scott-work, we have pretty much no updates right now
<scott-work> hehe, us too, but i'll still email them _something_ :P
<knome> https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/other-p-xubuntu-menu-managing
<baizon> yes plz :)
<baizon> that would be awesome
#xubuntu-devel 2011-11-18
<GridCube> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/firefox/+bug/891871
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 891871 in firefox (Ubuntu) "firefox tabs labels shadows remain on screen after changing focus out of firefox using a touchscreen" [Undecided,New]
<astraljava> ScottL: wiki can be configured so that it can be edited by anyone.
<Unit193> [19:27:41] knome (knome@ubuntu/member/knome) has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
<astraljava> Yes?
<knome> No?
<astraljava> [02:47] < Unit193> [19:27:41] knome (knome@ubuntu/member/knome) has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
<knome> mmh
<astraljava> I didn't really get the point, but then again, who gives a flying duck.
<knome> freenode failed, and didn't let me login with ssl
<astraljava> What, you got secrets on an open source project?
<knome> hsst
<astraljava> Incorrect. It's *pfft*
<knome> hah.
<knome> astraljava, kashmir's new collection, with some unreleased tracks <3
<astraljava> Nice, sounds like worthy for a purchase.
<knome> mm.
<knome> there are some rarities too
<knome> so it's quite many "new" tracks
<knome> astraljava, http://www.levykauppax.fi/artist/kashmir/katalogue_1991_2011/#2cd
<knome> you can get that from cdon.fi already though...
<ScottL> i noticed that on my xubuntu install that updates will start installing without getting permission (gksudo)
<ScottL> is it supposed to do that?
<astraljava> I noticed it too. Same for a Lubuntu install. *shrug*
<knome> probably not
<jono> hey knome, I just replied to your blog entry
<Unit193> astraljava: Not that again
<Unit193> I thought jono might be looking for him since he left support and joined devel
<astraljava> You left it wide open right there.
<Unit193> :D
<knome> jono, i will reply you shortly
<Unit193> Awww... Now I have to read it
<jono> knome, :-)
<jono> Unit193, lol
<knome> jono, do you mind if i remove the quotes? that would make it easier to follow
<jono> knome, I replies to mr_pouit's blog too
<jono> apologies for the delay
<GridCube> ScottL, i noticed that too
<GridCube> i blame lightdm integration with gnome-keyring
<astraljava> I have no gripes with that. 11 less key presses.
<GridCube> oh but i really, really, really, dislike kernel upgrades
<astraljava> Uptime?
<Unit193> 20:50:14 up 81 days,  7:53,  9 users,  load average: 0.06, 0.04, 0.09
<GridCube> no, it just messes with all the video drivers and all the vbox config files and pretty much nothing good comes from them
<astraljava> Unit193: No outside users? L4M3
<astraljava> GridCube: Yeah, it's not like it's an elementary piece of software at all.
<GridCube> at all indeed
<knome> jono, are you okay with me removing the quoted parts in your comment?
<astraljava> I really don't understand people's gripes with kernel updates. If you know it (the vulnerability) won't affect you, don't upgrade. If you really need the patch, why complain?
<jono> knome, I would prefer if you kept them there, they provide context
<jono> if you remove them my response will seem a little disjointed
<knome> jono, okay, i will. can you please try to reply without quotes the next time, with a bit more context added to the reply then?
<Unit193> astraljava: Uptrack
<jono> knome, what is wrong with quotes?
<jono> (just curious)
<knome> just makes the comments awfully long
<astraljava> Unit193: Which is?
<jono> ok
<jono> np
<jono> biab
<astraljava> awesome
<Unit193> astraljava: Updates without rebooting
<astraljava> Unit193: You can always subscribe to that service that provides kernel updates without rebooting. Without a mission critical server, I have a hard time figuring out a reason for it, though.
<Unit193> This is the same thing, just free for personal use....
<Unit193> Ksplice
<astraljava> I think that _is_ the service I speak of.
<Unit193> http://www.ksplice.com/uptrack/download-ubuntu
<Unit193> It's CLI or GUI
<pleia2> knome: so, shall I get a job with canonical IS?
<pleia2> (I have considered applying ;))
<pleia2> not sure I want to go from one overworked sysadmin job at a small company to another though
<knome> heh
<knome> pleia2, that would be an option ;)
<Unit193> ^^ He names his computers so cryptically
<knome> yeah
<knome> is that computer in the heaven?
<pleia2> if that's the case let's hope we never see scott-basement
<knome> hehe
<knome> well that could be interesting
<knome> he could tell if it smells like grilled sausage all the time there
<knome> :P~~~
<pleia2> haha, eww
<Unit193> So, we swapped the channels :D
<knome> this week in #xubuntu-devel, next week in #ubuntustudio-devel 
<Unit193> pleia2: No, they had been talking -devel in -offtopic, and -offtopic in -devel. It's just awesome :D
<pleia2> oh I see, I am so out of the loop :)
<pleia2> I joined their mailing list!
<Unit193> Oh, maybe I should do so?
<Unit193> I'm going to check out their Pangolin
<pleia2> I joined back when they announced the xfce switch
<scott-upstairs> knome, i'm reworking the ubuntu studio website spec per my converstaion with stochastc, do you think this will be enough direction for you to make changes?  is there a more preferred medium?
<knome> if it's specific/clear enough, the blueprint is fine :)
<scott-upstairs> knome, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/update-website-spec#Website_Content
<scott-upstairs> i think this is pretty explicit but the image is slightly misleading now and doesn't quite reflect everything about the modified direction
<knome> scott-upstairs, thanks. i'll look at that tomorrow (or today, if you want to say that ;])
<scott-upstairs> although i tried to address stuff in the text
<knome> okay
<scott-upstairs> let me know if anything is unclear
<scott-upstairs> logging for a bit
<knome> i'm off for the night
<knome> see you later
<pleia2> blogged http://princessleia.com/journal/?p=5349 \o/
<pleia2> now maybe more than just me and knome will come :)
<Unit193> pleia2: If I remember I should, but there isn't exactly a need for me ;)
<pleia2> Unit193: we always need you!
<Unit193> Heh
<ScottL> knome, mr_pouit :  good posts, it was interesting to read jono's responses
<madnick> In 11.10
<madnick> I am *not* prompted for password
<madnick> When installing updates
<madnick> And I do not know how that is even possible
<Unit193> What program? What did you do?
<madnick> Update Manager
<madnick> It popped up on me
<madnick> I clicked install
<madnick> It began
<madnick> The root key is not visible
<madnick> and I surely did not enter it
<madnick> It is accutlaly not a bug
<madnick> But I would concider it a bug
<Unit193> I'll have to try it
<Unit193> I always did/do use apt-get :P
<madnick> Well, I usually dont use the gui either, but since it popped up
<madnick> I bet thats why I have not noticed it
<micahg> madnick: not a bug
<micahg> madnick: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/FAQ#Update_Manager_doesn.27t_prompt_for_security_updates
<Unit193> Intentional bug ;)
<madnick> micahg: yes, I saw that :P 
<ochosi> hi everyone
<madnick> hi ochosi 
<ochosi> hi there
<ochosi> how're things?
<madnick> ochosi: i would like to make a final decision on the lightdm settings ui :P
<ochosi> oho :)
<madnick> but not know, because im trying to follow this meeting that is quite over my head :P
<madnick> now*
<ochosi> what meeting?
<madnick> #ubuntu-meeting
<madnick> its supposed to be about team reports
<ochosi> i see
<madnick> we didnt submit any team reports this week
<madnick> however
<madnick> ochosi: whats your stand on the lastest design draft? can i implement it, or do you really want it on the opposite side?
<ochosi> madnick: errm, link me to the latest design draft please, not sure i have it in mind
<madnick> http://www.madnick.se/~madnick/drafty3.png <- there, but also bold test on "autologin settings"
<madnick> text*
<madnick> sorry, i am quite tired, i shouldve gone to bed long ago :)
<ochosi> dunno, personally i guess i'd prefer to have the list on the right, but i don't think it's a big issue if it's on the left
<madnick> i can put it on the other side, no problem
<madnick> But its still a bit empty 
<ochosi> (i'd have it on the right, because of the hierarchical connex between the two. the settings in drafty3 on the right don't change when you switch greeter and that's what it implies imo)
<madnick> okay
<madnick> so, if i put it
<madnick> http://www.madnick.se/~madnick/drafty.png but use the padding of drafty3
<ochosi> k, also: more padding in the left-top corner for "autologin settings"
<madnick> okay
<madnick> Is the space left OK?
<madnick> err
<madnick> is the space that does not get occupied
<madnick> even with those paddings, ok to leave empty?
<madnick> or do i need to figure something out :P
<ochosi> do you still remember the other things (show-border for the listview and bold-font for the section headers) or do they not matter for what you want to decide atm?
<madnick> yes 
<ochosi> empty space is ok
<ochosi> as long as the alignment in the top-left corner is ok
<madnick> Its just that I cannot draft quickly enough
<madnick> okay
<madnick> well, then, ill implement this tonight :)
<ochosi> nice :)
<madnick> (after i slept :P)
<madnick> Also, I don't know if knome might want to do this or 
<madnick> 1 sec, im gonna check what we said about this
<ochosi> k
<madnick> Yes, its "awaiting discussion"
<madnick> knome needs to be here too :P
<madnick> (about the lightdm theme)
<ochosi> right, about the theme, i guess i should be able to get the mockup done tonight
<madnick> awesome :P
<ochosi> it would be nice though to know what elements have to be there and which can be there
<madnick> well, we sorta(?) decided to have an accessiblity element
<madnick> and then we need session, login stuff, and power management 
<ochosi> i see
<ochosi> that seems fairly standard
<ochosi> and what options do we have for the user-switche?
<ochosi> user-switcher
<madnick> anything at all, thats the beuity
<madnick> :P
<ochosi> rly?
<ochosi> awesome
<madnick> yes, if its doable by a computer
<madnick> it is doable by the greeter engine :P
<madnick> you can even make a certain nickname have a certain background
<madnick> or image
<ochosi> hmm, sounds interesting
<ochosi> e.g. a default setting if a "Guest" account is added, could we do that?
<madnick> Well, i dont really know what that would mean, sorry
<madnick> but:
<ochosi> well, e.g. like in chromium when opening a private-browsing session
<madnick> The greeter engine offers *all* of the API, the greeter theme is not written, and can do *anything* at all while we write it
<ochosi> something along the lines of that. adding an "incognito-background"
<madnick> Yes
<ochosi> that'd be rather cool i think
<madnick> So, if there is a guest session
<madnick> the theme's stuff changes? or the background of the desktop changes?
<madnick> Or another session is loaded for guest?
<olbi> hello folks :D
<madnick> hi
<madnick> ochosi: im sorry if i misunderstand you
<ochosi> madnick: i'd say the greeter-bg changes..?
<madnick> But I am very tired :P
<ochosi> hi olbi 
<madnick> Okay
<madnick> yes that can be done
<ochosi> madnick: yeah, no worries :) i'm not sure i understood the things we can change ;)
<olbi> how works is going?
<madnick> ochosi: in the greeter, anything, after the greeter, preferably (?) only the session we set
<madnick> But technically we can change anything
<ochosi> ok, then i'll try to come up with some different login for a guest-session as well
<ochosi> but the main thing will be the normal greeter
<madnick> okay :)
<ochosi> madnick: can you make another screenshot after you modified what we talked about?
<madnick> ochosi: yes 
<madnick> i will do this tomorrow (just after bed time for normal folks :P)
<madnick> and when you get up, ill ping you
<olbi> madnick, where are You from?:P
<madnick> Sweden
<ochosi> k, sounds good
<olbi> so allmost same time like at Poland :D
<madnick> yup
<madnick> my sleeping pattern is unbound by timezones ;)
<ochosi> madnick: if i may ask, what is your profession? sounds like a rather nice daily routine, going to sleep whenever :)
<madnick> ochosi: my profession is retired :P
<ochosi> lucky you :)
<madnick> well, it has its pros and cons :P
<ochosi> you mean like everything?
<madnick> :D
<ochosi> ;)
<knome> now that mr_pouit is "probably" retiring as the tech lead, is there somebody who would "probably" want to be the new one?
<madnick> he's leaving?
<knome> well i asked him if he will continue contributing
<knome> which he probably will
<knome> or i'll be angry at him ;[
<knome> but he has good reasons for not being the "lead" anymore
<olbi> shy :(
<knome> you mean "shame" ?
<pleia2> knome: reminds me, if we still want to fill the marketing lead role I can probably do it
<knome> pleia2, i was thinking i could do that and the website lead ;]
<pleia2> I've done the whole "make social networking happen" thing for a few teams now, and I've been sort of doing some of the rest anyway
<madnick>  technically, doesn't anyone who takes on that role need rights to the seeds
<olbi> I have good profession, sitting at home and typing news, articles, testing hardware under linux, type on IRC :D
<pleia2> knome: of course you're welcome to, just tossin that out there :)
<olbi> knome, yep, shame :P
<olbi> knome, my bad\
<pleia2> someone has @xubuntu on twitter, never tweeted, meanhead
<knome> madnick, i don't know.
<knome> heh
<olbi> palnetubuntu and ubuntuworldwide are there :D
<olbi> xubuntu is too
<olbi> http://twitter.com/#!/xubuntu :) but noone twitted
<pleia2> olbi: that's what I just said :)
<madnick> That's likely not a problem, if we really want that nickname
<madnick> The offical trademark of anything is reserved the right
<pleia2> does canonical hold the xubuntu trademark?
<madnick> I think so
<pleia2> (our site footer says they do, but I don't know if it's true)
<pleia2> I'll ask around
<madnick> http://www.canonical.com/legal
<madnick> pleia2: ^
<pleia2> madnick: oh great, thanks
<madnick> "Canonical owns a number of trademarks and these include the CANONICAL, UBUNTU, KUBUNTU, EDUBUNTU, and XUBUNTU. The trademarks are registered in both word and logo form."
<pleia2> now I just need to chase down who to nudge about getting twitter to move on this
<olbi> :D
<madnick> "When we determine that an account appears to be confusing users, but is not purposefully passing itself off as the trademarked good or service, we give the account holder an opportunity to clear up any potential confusion. We may also release a username for the trademark holder's active use."'
<madnick> oh wait
<madnick> i didnt read that good enough :P
<pleia2> "may"
<pleia2> heh
<pleia2> well, we could try, since the person owning it now is just camping on the name
<madnick> heh, it seems like twitter wants written stuff on this
<pleia2> yeah, I'd have to get a canonical person to help with this
<madnick> yup
<madnick> Infact, it would be great to have guidelines on what one can do with the Xubuntu trademark
<madnick> We had a question a while ago
<madnick> About proper use of the logo
<knome> what question?
<madnick> is #xubuntu logged? because i dont remember exact what it was about .P
<knome> it is
<madnick> okay, well, ill try to find the question
<madnick> Its not searchable :(
<knome> lastlog is
<knome> :)
<madnick> lastlog
<madnick> ops sorry
<olbi> some1 could tell me, how I could run gnome-cpufreq on top pannel in xubuntu? it's possible?
<madnick> knome: it was like 2-3 weeks ago, and i reset my client after that :P
<pleia2> the logs tell me someone asked about using xubuntu in a domain name back in may
<knome> hmm.
<knome> pleia2, link?
<pleia2> http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2011/05/26/%23xubuntu.html#t15:44
<pleia2> charlie wisely advised them to ask canonical
<madnick> mine was more recent
<knome> mm.
<knome> there are domains with "ubuntu" too though
<knome> pleia2, sent mail to xub dev ;)
<pleia2> oh I see, I volunteer for one role and...
<pleia2> :)
<pleia2> thanks
<knome> np ;)
<olbi> :]
<knome> one more mail
<knome> :P
<pleia2> ochosi \o/
<knome>          |
<knome>       / \
<knome> what?!?
<knome> irssi fail
<knome> well
<olbi> i use xchat :)
<knome> ochosi, i'm very sorry to tell, but your legs were involved in an accident...
<olbi> hahaha
<olbi> ok falks, I have to go to home now, I will be back soon :)
<knome> see you olbi 
<jono> knome, hey
<knome> hey jono 
<jono> knome, all set?
<knome> yes
<ochosi> knome: :)
<ochosi> pleia2: congrats!
<ochosi> k, taking the evening off, see you tomorrow!
<pleia2> ochosi: you too :)
#xubuntu-devel 2011-11-19
<ochosi> madnick: morning, just started working on the lightdm-greeter mockup
<madnick> ochosi: awesome :)
<ochosi> i'm still thinking of going somewhere in this direction: http://images.derStandard.at/2011/11/03/1319222803137.png
<ochosi> i think dropping the "fake panel" on top or bottom â which we always used to have because of gdm â is a rather good idea
<ochosi> because we don't really need it anymore
<ochosi> and it looks cleaner
<ochosi> madnick: btw, do you have the white glowing xubuntu-logo anywhere?
<madnick> ochosi: typ i do
<madnick> yup*
<madnick> 1 sec
<ochosi> ty
<madnick> ochosi: acctually are you using oneiric?
<ochosi> yup
<madnick> if you are, its /lib/plymouth/themes/xubuntu-logo/xubuntu-logo.png
<madnick> and thats the same as i got :P
<ochosi> lol
<ochosi> thanks
<ochosi> just didn't want to bother searching ;)
<madnick> i think knome has an svg
<ochosi> png is fine for mockups
<madnick> okay
<madnick> I ran into some really annoying problems when I attempted to fix the settings dialog for lightdm :P
<ochosi> rly, what problems?
<madnick> Well, I need the parent to resize my plug window, which it sorta does
<madnick> But fixed + resize :(
<madnick> The settings window is resizable
<ochosi> right, not sure i get the problematic part of being able to resize the window
<ochosi> it'll just add scrollbars, no?
<ochosi> (if not, i guess you can add an option to your window to enable them)
<madnick> No no, if you make the window biggeer
<madnick> Instead of smaller
<madnick> it would keep its position
<madnick> by default
<madnick> all the widgets
<madnick> (yes, i could manually remap them, but that feels unclean)
<ochosi> yeah, but isn't it ok if they keep their position?
<ochosi> i mean what would you expect them to do? spread evenly across the gained space?
<madnick> ochosi: yes :)
<madnick> well 
<madnick> technically i'd expect the list view to always be to the right
<madnick> thats why I put it on the left :P
<ochosi> yeah, but personally i wouldn't consider it a bug
<madnick> okay
<ochosi> i'm trying to check with other apps in the settings-manager dialog, one sec
<ochosi> hm, can't you simply set the box containing the listview to expand?
<ochosi> afair that's only a single packing option in gtk2
<madnick> not sure if i can when its fixed
<madnick> well, if you really do want it like that, i can manually set it up to handle the resize event
<ochosi> first draft: http://imagebin.org/184727
<madnick> ochosi: because its not really packing on fixed
<madnick> :))
<ochosi> clicking the avatar would show a dropdown list of available users on the system
<ochosi> but you could still enter your username by hand
<madnick> i like that idea
<ochosi> i'm actually wondering whether that makes any sense though
<ochosi> cause without a username on the system you shouldn't be able to log in anyway
<madnick> true
<ochosi> knome: whenever you're around, what do you think of this? http://imagebin.org/184727
<ochosi> hmyeah, you know it makes the whole thing look a bit overcrowded
<ochosi> we could do something like fedora does
<ochosi> or at least i think they do
<ochosi> is the following scenario possible:
<ochosi> we only have a user-avatar and name displayed, clicking it shows the dropdown of available users, the only input box is a password-box. on the lower left corner we have "Not listed here?", upon clicking that instead of the user-chooser a simple text-input-box would appear
<madnick> sure
<ochosi> awesome
<ochosi> i think that'd be the behaviour i'd consider best
<ochosi> what do you think about it?
<madnick> I think, if they are not listed, they do not exist in the user database :P
<ochosi> exactly, that's why i'm wondering why we need an input-box for them
<ochosi> the "Not listed here?" would be a kinda fallback if for some reason (bug) the username is not available
<madnick> yup
<ochosi> but anyway, getting more opinions on that is probably a good idea
<ochosi> i'll try to adapt my mockup quickly though to fit that scenario, so it's easier to talk about it
<madnick> Personally, on an unrelated note, I sorta like the idea of only 1 box :P
<madnick> http://www.madnick.se/~madnick/zebra.png
<ochosi> yeah, but why enter username by hand?
<madnick> its faster :P
<madnick> username -> enter -> password -> enter :P
<ochosi> not for everyone ;)
<madnick> true
<ochosi> but we could include some basic keyboard navigation
<ochosi> for the user-selection
<ochosi> e.g. if your user is preselected in the user-chooser, you only have to: password > enter ;)
<ochosi> so it's faster in that case
<madnick> :)
<madnick> ochosi: i got to go to the store, i'll be back in 20
<ochosi> np
<ochosi> madnick: http://imagebin.org/184728
<ochosi> also: show "real name" instead of "username" in the chooser
<ochosi> i mean why else do we even have that property
<madnick> ochosi: yup, that sounds good
<ochosi> cool
<ochosi> btw, i'll migrate my data to my new internal SSD today
<madnick> :>
<ochosi> meaning i will be out backing up data etc for a while
<ochosi> i'm also afraid the migration will take a while
<ochosi> (stupid usb2!)
<madnick> you got a new laptop? (since the ssd is internal)
<ochosi> anyway, after that i'll draw my mockups at high speed! ;)
<ochosi> nah, just a two-year old dell xps m1330
<ochosi> but a friend of mine got a new laptop so he'll pass on his ssd to me
<madnick> ah
<ochosi> in return he gets my 500gb internal hdd
<madnick> Im gonna get Zenbook ;)
<ochosi> sounds awesome
<ochosi> looks a bit like a macbook-air clone ;)
<madnick> indeed :P
<ochosi> but i wouldn't mind getting one myself
<madnick> I don't like mac keyboards
<madnick> and I rather avoid EFI 
<ochosi> guess i haven't used them long enough to be able to tell
<ochosi> i'm typing on one of these babies: http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQq-6CcpPj5dNPAmu0wlNPF2XzNPZQpIF-Zu8ASUzrI_UU1tCHtwCGspX3W
<madnick> :D:D:D
<madnick> I love those!
<ochosi> my keyboard is only two years younger than me :)
<madnick> They make awsome sounds
<ochosi> yup
<ochosi> my gf hates that ;)
<madnick> :P
<madnick> PS/2 :))
<ochosi> i sometimes have to switch to my logitech kb when she's around
<ochosi> yup
<ochosi> although the one i had before was still DIN
<ochosi> so it was DIN > PS/2 > USB
<ochosi> a nice series of adapters which made it rather error-prone
<madnick> lol
<ochosi> or in fact: DIN > PS/2 > USB HUB > USB :D
<ochosi> so about the greeter: i guess when there is more than one user, the layout should be a bit different
<ochosi> scenario1: only one user, you end up exactly at the screen i mocked up
<ochosi> scenario2: multiple users, the password-box is hidden, instead there is some kind of "overflow-indicator" that opens the user-list-popup
<ochosi> does that make sense to you?
<ochosi> (i can do a mockup of scenario2 with an open user-list-popup btw)
<madnick> i suppose :P
<madnick> Im not 100% sure
<madnick> I know what you mean
<madnick> that i know*
<ochosi> k, i just added an indicator now, not sure, is that too subtle? http://imagebin.org/184731
<ochosi> but i'd really rather not display a huge list of users...
<madnick> Hm, how about if you rotated the indicator, > and you could scroll through all the users?
<ochosi> you mean keep it in the same place?
<ochosi> ah, i think i get what you mean
<ochosi> yeah, that's an option
<ochosi> but that way you never get an overview over what users you have on your system
<ochosi> we could do both though
<ochosi> clicking the avatar gives you a small popup
<madnick> yup
<ochosi> and having the additional triangle to cycle through
<ochosi> in fact i think i have a nice idea for the popup
<ochosi> but maybe it's too elaborate
<ochosi> mainly show avatars with small names underneath them
<ochosi> doable?
<madnick> Well, I think most people use the login screen as a little protection
<madnick> In single user mode
<madnick> So they want to get in fast :P
<madnick> yes
<ochosi> yeah, that's why if there's only one user i'd show the password-field immedialtely
<madnick> sorry, i missed that perhaps, im still a bit disoriented since yesterday :P
<madnick> But yes, we could show small names
<madnick> And avatars
<madnick> But ochosi 
<madnick> Picking avatars, is something we might concider having in the settings
<madnick> Or is that global?
 * madnick is not sure
<madnick> I mean, picking which one to use
<madnick> for lightdm
<ochosi> i think you can pick your avatar in the user-settings. it should be global imo
<ochosi> i mean the same avatar system-wide
<madnick> okay, cool
<madnick> const gchar *       lightdm_user_get_image              (LightDMUser *user);
<madnick> yeah
<ochosi> :)
<ochosi> quick one: http://imagebin.org/184732
<ochosi> the positioning isn't great, it's mostly to illustrate the idea
<madnick> :))
<madnick> that looks good
<ochosi> i'd probably move it more to the bottom, so that you can still see the avatar-button clicked
<ochosi> but something along the lines of this
<ochosi> and maybe trim the usernames in this list
<ochosi> or add a scrollbar?
<ochosi> oh, different idea...
<ochosi> when clicking the avatar, the whole black login-box gets replaced by that popup
<ochosi> and upon clicking/choosing an avatar you get back to the login-window
<ochosi> that'd maybe feel better than a popup
<madnick> ochosi: i like that idea :)
<ochosi> i have developed it a bit further in the last few minutes
<ochosi> but the backup-copying makes my gimp rather useless, far too laggy... :(
<madnick> :(
 * ochosi hopes it's done soon
<ochosi> too many small files, those keep the cpu busy
<madnick> how much stuff do you have? :P when i do a reinstall of stuff like that, its usllay < 200MB :P
<ochosi> lucky you
<ochosi> i have 40gb photos, 60gb of music and quite a few movies (~ 200gb)
<ochosi> but the movies i won't keep i think
<ochosi> i'll just delete most of them
<madnick> :P
<ochosi> (because i've seen them, archiving them doesn't make too much sense imo)
<ochosi> that's what the cloud is for anyway
<madnick> yup
<ochosi> ok, just to illustrate what i've been thinking about: there'd only be two screens, the normal login screen for one user and this chooser: http://imagebin.org/184736
<ochosi> you'd get to that by clicking the avatar or the >
<ochosi> the "Not listed here?" would only appear in this context, not when already entering a password == already having selected a user
<ochosi> opinions?
<madnick> looks nice :)
<ochosi> again i didn't care too much about the positioning
<ochosi> it's just to illustrate the idea
<ochosi> (also: my backup is still running, so drawing isn't that easy)
<madnick> 3 per line seems like a good idea
<madnick> because default
<madnick> user other user guest 
<madnick> if you are 2 users
<madnick> that is
<madnick> so, it wouldnt give a scroll unless more than 3
<ochosi> yeah, though the 3 per line was more by accident than by concept :)
<ochosi> but i guess it makes sense
<ochosi> the main thing is that nothing pops up anymore
<ochosi> which i think is visually more pleasant
<ochosi> so maybe we can wait at this stage for knome to give some input/feedback before carrying on too much
<madnick> yeah
<ochosi> it's a rather clean design already: two viewmodes, one for the user-chooser, one for login
<madnick> yep
<madnick> Website Sprint at 23:00 my time? :o
<ochosi> iirc yourtime==mytime
<madnick> yup!
<ochosi> guess so, not sure
<ochosi> :)
<ochosi> i can't be there anyway, saturday night i have other things to do ;)
<mr_pouit> knome: ah, something to add to the roadmap could be a better ui for xfce4-display-settings, to be able to set the outputs' positions ;>
<ochosi> mr_pouit: that'd be awesome! would you be the assignee? ;)
<ochosi> but anyway, you could add it to the wiki roadmap and we can try to figure that out later
<mr_pouit> ochosi: I would have done it already if I knew how to code that ;>
<ochosi> lol
<mr_pouit> (I only rewrote the code behind to work with randr 1.2, not the ui)
<ochosi> maybe we should talk to stephen about it, at least he knows how to position different wallpapers on different screens
<mr_pouit> yeah, he mailed jeromeg and me about reusing that for xfce4-display-settings
<ochosi> well, i'd be all for it!
<mr_pouit> but I don't know if he really wants to take that workitem ;>
<ochosi> yeah, especially connected with the timeframe
<ochosi> and it seems he's still renovating
<ochosi> yippie, almost done with my backup (only music has to be copied, so 60gb)
<ochosi> madnick: quick question: does lightdm set any session-things in oneiric? for a friend of mine it changes the screen-resolution to something odd
<ochosi> just looking for who the bad "guy" is and want to rule out lightdm :)
<madnick> yes, lightdm sets the session
<madnick> but i dont know about resolutions :\
<madnick> that sounds odd
<ochosi> where is lightdm's config file located?
<madnick> ochosi: /etc/lightdm
<madnick> /etc/lightdm/lightdm.conf /etc/lightdm/lightdm-gtk-greeter.conf
<ochosi> k, thanks, i'll have a quick look into it
<ochosi> more likely it's a session thing i guess...
<knome> what's the user settings dialog? i think me menu is crapped... so where can i get the default menu file too?
<knome> mr_pouit, hahah, lol, okay... do you think it's overly elaborate or kind of trivialish? :P
<madnick> hi knome
<madnick> have you had the chance to look at the drafts?
<knome> yeah
<ochosi> yes knome, did you have the chance already? :)
<knome> i just read through the backlog
<ochosi> righty
<knome> i'm wondering about having any scrollbars
<ochosi> i could've given you a quick summary as well
<ochosi> but nvm
<knome> i think a simple list would be better
<knome> like a dropdown
<knome> i'm also wondering how useful avatars really are
<knome> how many uses them anyway?
<knome> do YOU have set an avatar?
<madnick> well, it have not really worked until now :P
<knome> madnick... one thing about blueprints :D
<ochosi> in fact ubuntu has this avatar-setting integrated in their/our installer
<knome> madnick, can you set your nick as [dr-madnick] as that's your *launchpad* nickname which needs to be linked
<madnick> ochosi: we do too
<madnick> knome: yeah
<madnick> in the blueprints itself+
<madnick> ?*
<knome> yeah
<ochosi> madnick: that's why i wrote "their/our"
<knome> after that, where do you set it?
<madnick> [dr-madnick] Design the graphical user interface: INPROGRESS
<knome> and can somebody please pastebin me the default app menu for oneiric
<knome> madnick, yes
<madnick> done
<knome> thanks
<ochosi> knome: i think avatars are useful in general, and as i said, ubuntu almost forces you to set one at install-time
<madnick> https://launchpad.net/~madnick
<madnick> that doesnt exist
<madnick> but i cant use it anyways :(
<knome> madnick, exactly. that was throwing error :)
<knome> madnick, maybe contact the lp admins
<madnick> yup
<madnick> i really dont like the word around for the right-side view + resize
<madnick> because it needs to resize horozonally aswell
<madnick> if it doesnt it just looks wierd :P
<madnick> Gtk.Box (?) :|
<madnick> work around*
<ochosi> knome: any other feedback on the general look of the greeter?
<knome> i'm also not sure about the "window" being 100% solid (not transparent at all), but othewise i think it's fine.
<knome> and maybe use a bit less curved corners
<ochosi> yeah, those can all be figured out
<ochosi> but in general i'd prefer to only have this box and not an additional panel like we always had
<ochosi> i mean just for accessibility and power-man it's a bit too much to add a panel imo
<ochosi> about the user-switcher, yeah, at first i was also thinking about a simple dropdown, but on the other hand the avatar-thing might be nice and useful
<knome> yeah
<knome> ochosi, if it brings scrollbars, i'm kind of reluctant
<ochosi> it could also be a popup
<knome> ochosi, scrollbar in a dropdown box however... it's not that bad
<ochosi> i had a design for that at first
<knome> what if you had 200 users?
<ochosi> yeah, imagine a dropdown with 200 users ;)
<knome> with scrollbar that's possible
<ochosi> well the advantage of the stacked avatars would be that you'd have 3 per line
<ochosi> we could even offer both in the end
<ochosi> also: the dark frame is rather minimal/small at the moment, i'd probably make it larger in the end
<knome> yeah, hard to say how it turns out to be
<ochosi> k, so let's keep both options in mind?
<ochosi> also: you're fine with showing the real-name?
<ochosi> (and show the username as fallback, i should add)
<madnick> Real Name
<madnick> (username)
<madnick> wait
<madnick> i guess that wouldnt fit very well
<ochosi> madnick: could we show a simple-list-popup if there's more than 3 users?
<madnick> we could
<ochosi> knome: what do you think about that? ^
<knome> i like the idea of "Real Name (username)" ...
<knome> the username usually isn't very long :P
<ochosi> true
<knome> simple-list-popup as in?
<ochosi> we still might have to trim them
<ochosi> well, simple-list-popup as in: text-only list of usernames
<ochosi> or even of "Realname (username"ys
<ochosi> meh
<ochosi> :)
<knome> what would it look like?
<knome> avatar + rn(user) ?
<knome> <br />
<knome> repeat;
<ochosi> without the avatar, just rn(user)<br>
<ochosi> to control the overflow better and to make the list shorter
<ochosi> (short in terms of pixels)
<knome> mm
<ochosi> i can quickly draw it
<knome> yeah, could work, but wouldn't that mean showing avatars anywhere was BLEH?
<knome> just add small versions of the avatars :P
<ochosi> yeah, better :)
<knome> imo we don't need to show huge avatars anywhere
<knome> just something like 20px tall
<knome> =~ 1 line-height
<ochosi> well, maybe 48px in the login-screen, that'd be kinda nice
<knome> + a bit more
<ochosi> i'd show the selected username a bit larger than a normal line
<ochosi> as you could see in one of the mockups
<knome> madnick, you good in optimizing python? :P
<madnick> ochosi: how do i scale a selection in gimp?
<ochosi> madnick: put it on a separate layer
<madnick> knome: depends :P
<knome> madnick, https://launchpad.net/launchpad-work-items-tracker
<ochosi> very quick: http://imagebin.org/184741
<ochosi> i like the idea with the small line-height avatars in the simple-list a lot btw
<knome> yup
<madnick> knome: i'd say I have quite a few thing todo already, so adding something more might be bad for the current items :P
<knome> ;]
<knome> okay
<knome> np with that
<knome> just asking
<madnick> I do expect to have working items soon however, because im doing it constantly, but I rather not take any chances at this stage, perhaps I can do more things later
<ochosi> yeah, sounds good
<madnick> just a heads up
<madnick> avatars will litterally scale 
<madnick> so smaller avatars = look wierd probably
<ochosi> yeah, i don't think we should care about that :)
<knome> bbl
<madnick> hi GridCube 
<GridCube> hi madnick 
<madnick> ochosi: when you are ready, i could implement this and we can see how it works out, on a real computer/vm
<GridCube> hows you lightdm configuration program going? added an avatar option yet? and a change your background box?
<ochosi> madnick: cool, i'll try to get it done today
<madnick> GridCube: well, thats greeter options
<GridCube> oh
<madnick> GridCube: which means that they are not the same for all greeters (avatar is tho)
<madnick> but avatar is changable, but i dont know where :)
<madnick> users / groups :P
<ochosi> i think in the user-settings (main-menu > system > users and groups)
<GridCube> its fun because when i was installing xubuntu it recognized i have a webcam and asked to take me a picture for the greeter, but it never used it
<madnick> why isnt user settings in the settings manager?
<ochosi> yeah, it's not really used up to now in xubuntu
<ochosi> madnick: settings-manager is xfce-upstream, so only their stuff is inside
<ochosi> (or mostly)
<madnick> i see
<GridCube> oh in users and groups it shows the picture it took, but in the greeter it does not
<madnick> what is the user / group maanger called?
<GridCube> users admin?
<GridCube> users-admin
<madnick> thanks
<GridCube> sorry for adding more job to your inbox :P
<ochosi> ok, deleting my local hdd now
<ochosi> (hopefully) see you later
<GridCube> D:
<GridCube> good luck
<ochosi> ty
<holstein> anyont aware of a bug for clicking on downloaded .debs ?
<holstein> anyone*
 * holstein searching....
<GridCube> what kind of bug?
<holstein> like "clicking on downloaded .deb doesnt work"
<holstein> this is not unlike it...https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/software-center/+bug/788953
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 788953 in software-center (Ubuntu) "deb installation authentication gui does not allow password entry: box is greyed out" [Undecided,New]
<GridCube> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/software-center/+bug/868188
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 868188 in software-center (Ubuntu) ""Internal Error ...google-chrome-stable_current_amd64.deb could not be opened"" [Medium,In progress]
<GridCube> http://www.linuxnov.com/internal-error-during-package-installation-using-ubuntu-software-center-on-ubuntu-11-10/
<holstein> the .deb seems fine... i used dpkg -i
<GridCube> holstein, see that last link i pasted
<holstein> GridCube: yeah... i have the package installed now, and i didnt get an error message 
<holstein> i just clicked the .deb from the browser and a *tiny* software center opened, went grey and crashed
<GridCube> yes, i got some problems with debs myself
<holstein> then, i clicked on it from the */Downloade folder and something similar happened, though the software center wasnt tiny
<ochosi> madnick: which mockup is the most important for you? the login view? or the chooser?
<madnick> ochosi: well, the technical aspect of it
<madnick> so the chooser i guess
<madnick> unless you plan to make something 
<madnick> that is even more technical requiring :P
<ochosi> nah, not really
<madnick> basically: if its visual only, i dont need it yet
<madnick> but if its a feature
<madnick> i need it .P
<ochosi> ok, well if you can do the basic visuals of what i posted earlier that'd be a good starting point
<madnick> yup!
<ochosi> the chooser would be this simple popup, basically a scrollable listview with: avatar|rn(username)
<madnick> ochosi: it would be great if you could export the graphics :P 
<ochosi> sure, do you want the messy xcf or individual graphics?
<madnick> if the xcf has it all, i can take that :)Ã
<ochosi> and: are you painting everything with pixmaps or what toolkit are you using
<madnick> html :)
<ochosi> right :)
<ochosi> was mainly wondering about stuff like the login-button
<ochosi> because it's just a mockup, not a very perfect button. maybe better to redraw it before you put it there
<ochosi> and i guess you'd need a hover-effect for that as well
<madnick> that be cool :)
<ochosi> ok, i'll start by sending you the xcf and after you created an initial version it should be easy to replace the individual graphics anyway, right?
<madnick> sure
<madnick> yes*
<ochosi> k, mind to pm me your email-address?
<madnick> there
<ochosi> sent
<madnick> hm
<madnick> it doesnt appear :P
<madnick> there we go
<ochosi> k :)
<ochosi> for a moment i thought i sent it to someone else ;)
<EagleScreen> hello
<ochosi> hi
<EagleScreen> I think that Software Origins woulb be better under the System menu, not Configuration menu, it is a few messed for me
<knome> mr_pouit, "Use maybe-ubiquity" <- is that high or essential, or do you care about it at all?
<madnick> ochosi: ill look into this right away, however: i need your opinion on something i did, give me 10 minutes
<madnick> if you can
<madnick> :P
<ochosi> madnick: sure, np
<madnick> Then after that i can begin on this
<ochosi> madnick: i'll be around for another 30
<madnick> ok cool
<ochosi> knome: sorry that i can't join your website sprint tonight, but a friend of mine is visiting from a different county
<knome> ochosi, no problem. we'll just assign all the items left after the sprint to you.
<ochosi> lol
<ochosi> thanks
<knome> np
<mr_pouit> knome: No iead, I don't know why I'm the assignee :]
<knome> mr_pouit, lol
<knome> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ubiquity/+bug/720652
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 720652 in ubiquity (Ubuntu) "[Xubuntu] maybe-ubiquity/new greeter support" [Medium,Triaged]
<knome> that's reported by you??
<mr_pouit> yeah, but I didn't really track it, I think charlie was taking care of it at that time
<knome> right.
<ochosi> where is charlie anyway? did he drop out entirely now?
<knome> nope
<knome> he said he's going to be online more later in this month
<ochosi> ah ok, that's good
<knome> ochosi, https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/other-p-xubuntu-bluebird-gtk3-port
<EagleScreen> currently in Xubuntu 11.10, blueman want to open nautilus to browse a phone via bluetooth
<EagleScreen> but nautilus is not installed (and it shouldn't)
<knome> EagleScreen, i suppose file a bug in blueman
<ochosi> knome: thanks, i guess there are no other workitems in that spec :)
<knome> ochosi, yeah, i suppose
<EagleScreen> it is already filed, but i dont see activity
<mr_pouit> no, there's already a bug against xubuntu-default-settings for that (blueman)
<knome> mr_pouit, but?
<mr_pouit> #882621
<mr_pouit> I haven't had time to look at it, that's all
 * knome kicks ubottu 
<knome> bug #882621
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 882621 in xubuntu-default-settings (Ubuntu) "Xubuntu tries to browse bluetooth device with nautilus" [Medium,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/882621
<knome> mr_pouit, is it exo- or mimetype-problem? any idea at all?
<mr_pouit> the default configuration of blueman has to be changed (by shipping another one in xubuntu-default-settings)
<knome> huh?
<knome> if you install xubuntu and then ubuntu, isn't that reverted back to opening nautilus then?
<knome> mr_pouit, re: maybe-ubiquity... is that blocking anything? eg. if we don't get it in, we still can provide usable environment?
<knome> mr_pouit, what is it about anyway??
<mr_pouit> <entry name="browse_command" mtime="1276424823" type="string">
<mr_pouit> 		<stringvalue>Thunar obex://[%d]</stringvalue>
<mr_pouit> 	</entry>
<mr_pouit> this is a gconf setting that needs to be overridden
<madnick> ochosi: problem, i cant record my screen O_o
<mr_pouit> and if you use ubuntu with xubuntu-default-settings installed, then yes, it will try to open Thunar
<knome> mr_pouit, a-ha. can't that be exo-file-manager ?
<knome> or sth...
<knome> wouldn't that make sense
<ochosi> madnick: right, hm, why's that? :)
<mr_pouit> exo-open, yeah, why not
<knome> because then it would be an infinite war between thunar and nautilus
<madnick> ochosi: i think its because im in a vm
<mr_pouit> knome: (maybe-ubiquity: it's to have the same nice live cd menu as other variants)
<knome> mr_pouit, would you be able to work on it this cycle?
<mr_pouit> knome: there's already an infinite war, nautilus will screw up the desktop by default (take it over)
<knome> mr_pouit, the reason you are assignee was that you reported the bug and i thought you wanted to pursue that
<ochosi> madnick: can't you record outside the vm and that'll show what's inside the vm as well?
<knome> mr_pouit, yeah, i understand, but even more reason to point to exo-open i suppose...
<madnick> ochosi: yes :|
<madnick> ffs
<madnick> :D
<madnick> Im quite stupid
<ochosi> ah, everyone is blocked at times ;)
<ochosi> and you seem to sleep little lately
<knome> bug #752886
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 752886 in xubuntu-default-settings (Ubuntu) "XFCE terminal font appears bigger than other text" [Wishlist,Incomplete] https://launchpad.net/bugs/752886
<EagleScreen> 752886 also affects me
<ochosi> it affects everyone, it's a question of what we decide, not really a bug
<ochosi> but feel free to add your opinion to the bugreport ;)
<EagleScreen> does thunar support browsing obex:// ?
<madnick> ochosi: ok here we go :) http://www.madnick.se/~madnick/ldm.ogg
<mr_pouit> EagleScreen: with the right gvfs backends installed, yes (I don't think I'd put a broken command in my settings, even for fun :p)
<madnick> ochosi: basically, what i did is: I made it so that its not fixed anymore, except the left, so that the resize works
<knome> imo 752886 is more about wishlist than actual "bug" affecting...
<madnick> but i still forgot the border + bold
<madnick> :(
<GridCube> madnick, :) pretty cool
<ochosi> madnick: looks great!
<madnick> ok good
<madnick> I'll implement it then, and i wont forget the borders :)
<ochosi> cool!
<madnick> and perhaps i shouldnt list all users either O_o
<ochosi> yeah
<ochosi> that was another thing i wanted to ask you about
<madnick> :)
<madnick> btw ochosi, perhaps ill implement the greeter stuff tomorrow, since its the website sprint today
<madnick> i can implement the functionallity today, but not the graphics
<ochosi> awesome
<ochosi> we can talk in the evening tomorrow
<madnick> okay cool
<knome> http://temp.knome.fi/other/droidsans10-droidmono10.png
<knome> hands up those who think sans mono 10 has worse readability than sans 10
<madnick> o/
<knome> really?
<madnick> no
<madnick> i read that as
<madnick> sorry
<knome> :P
<knome> so which one has better readability
<madnick> mono!
<knome> yes
<EagleScreen> regarding Bluetooth browsing, there is common bug in Ubuntu and Xubuntu, I cannot browse and I obtain "Connection refused", but Bluetooth browsing works very well in Kubuntu (KDE + Bluedevil) for the same hardware
<EagleScreen> the connection refused issue is common for blueman and gnome-bluetooth
<EagleScreen> what does they share?
<GridCube> http://imagebin.org/184775
<ochosi> k, got to go, have a nice evening everyone!
<knome> ochosi, you too!
<ochosi> (and good luck with the website sprint)
<knome> thanks
<madnick> cya ochosi 
<knome> Lionel, will you commit this change for Precise? Thanks.
<knome> ^ from the comments of #752886
<mr_pouit> [xubuntu-team] Create a draft for default Conky layout for discussion and possible inclusion
<mr_pouit> grr
<knome> what?
<mr_pouit> (come one, we're not a random custom iso built by someone in a forum who includes all the apps he can think about))
<knome> lol
<knome> nope, we're not
<knome> don't take it too seriously yet.
<knome> i want to investigate it
<knome> it's probably going to be postponed unless we have a killer idea and time to execute it
<knome> meh.
<GridCube> hem?
<knome> moving the appearance items under one parent blueprint didn't help making the dependency tree much readable
<GridCube> oh, those things never look good
<knome> it's not about looking good, it's about text size being big enough to be readable
<GridCube> :P
<GridCube> im being extremely obnoxious lately, i apologize for that,
<knome> no problem. if you think you can't be nothing but obnoxious at times, you can also choose to take a break :)
<astraljava> knome: Was that a hint?
<astraljava> I'll get me coat.
<knome> lol
<knome> nope.
<knome> not for you at least ;)
<knome> well generally really
<mr_pouit> huhuhu :>
<knome> there are times when all of us feel like leaving FOSS completely
<knome> then it might be better to take a break
<knome> mr_pouit, hehe
<knome> mr_pouit, so, now that i know you're not idle
<astraljava> Yeah, about the time when jussi joined this community.
<knome> mr_pouit, what should i do with the kbdleds item?
<knome> astraljava, lol
<knome> that made me laugh out loud, literally
<mr_pouit> knome: I'm not very happy with the plugin in the current state (I only looked at the latest tarball: http://git.xfce.org/panel-plugins/xfce4-kbdleds-plugin/snapshot/xfce4-kbdleds-plugin-0.0.6.tar.bz2), and it's a big mess inside =]
<knome> mmh.
<knome> do you think it would be saner to postpone it to P+1 than try to get it in the repositories while still broken?
<astraljava> Speak of the devil...
<knome> astraljava, lols
<jussi> bwahhahahahaha
<jussi> astraljava: sane? nah...
<knome> jussi monitors all the *buntu* channels via some bots? :P
<jussi> Im sitting next to him irl...
<knome> hahah
<knome> right
<knome> astraljava, is that true?
<knome> i mean, he could be lying. and trying to get away from monitoring the channels.
<astraljava> No, I don't what he's on about.
<mr_pouit> knome: I'll recheck it regularly until FF (if it's still not clean at that time, then let's go for P+1)
<astraljava> know*
<jussi> bastard
<knome> mr_pouit, do you think it needs a blueprint? :P :P
<knome> <- lazy
<astraljava> You really think I'd let him in the premises?!
<knome> yeah, i was thinking about that.
<GridCube> mr_pouit, knome wouldnt it be better to tell that to the maintainer?
<knome> GridCube, please go ahead
<GridCube> will do so
<knome> thanks
<astraljava> I am here!!! and I will always win!!! bwahaha! (from Jussi)
<mr_pouit> GridCube: the git branch has been cleaned already
<jussi>  hehe
<mr_pouit> (but he hasn't made a new release yet)
<jussi> I win :D
<knome> :O :O
<knome> maybe ask him to make a new release then
<mr_pouit> knome: xubuntu-default-settings 12.04.0 uploaded, I'll let you the fun of moving work items to 'DONE'
<knome> GridCube, can you get back to this once you have more information in the next meeting you can attend? :P
<knome> mr_pouit, lol, the fun
<knome> i've been hacking with the BPs the last three days or so
<knome> meh
<GridCube> that should be next sunday?
<knome> but since i'm at it...
<mr_pouit> knome: well, my mailbox tells me you're having a lot of fun ;D
 * mr_pouit hides
<knome> mr_pouit, i'm sure  :D
<madnick> hehe 18 new emails
<knome> mr_pouit, i suppose that was for the terminal font
<GridCube> you want me to try to contact the developer for then, or since then?
<knome> contact when you can, and tell us what was the outcome in the next meeting since you know something neq
<knome> *new
<GridCube> :)
<GridCube> will do then
<knome> thanks
<mr_pouit> I don't remember if I said it already, but ristretto 0.3.0 is now in precise
<GridCube> oh :) nice
<knome> nice
<knome> mr_pouit, https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/other-p-xubuntu-default-image-viewer :P
<GridCube> i like ristretto 0.3.0
<knome> mr_pouit, you probably want the last action item? ;]
<mr_pouit> ristretto is still set as the default handler for pictures
<knome> it is??
<knome> i thought that was set to gthumb in oneiric
<mr_pouit> look in /usr/share/xubuntu/applications/defaults.list
<mr_pouit> nobody asked me to change =]
<knome> i probably have that set to gthumb, since ristretto is unusable
<knome> lol
<knome> right...
<knome> fsst
<knome> i just created the blueprint
<knome> and there is no way to DELETE it
<knome> mr_pouit, you probably should filter mails starting with "[Blueprint" from "pasi@shimmerproject.org"
<knome> :P
<mr_pouit> hehe
<knome> there is now a blueprint for every item on the roadmap with an assignee \o/
<pleia2> my poor inbox
<knome> pleia2, sorry :(
<pleia2> :)
<knome> i filtered those mails myself
<knome> ;)
<knome> so... mmh
<pleia2> I will start
<pleia2> hehe
<madnick> im just happy to get email!
<knome> haha
<mr_pouit> that'd be great if we release 12.04 without all these stupid little bugs (such as "oops, we forgot to add gvfs-backends by default" in oneiric)
<knome> huh
<knome> do you want a blueprint for those so i will track them?
<knome> (is there many of them)
<mr_pouit> the problem is that we don't know them ;>
<knome> heh
<knome> well, we know the gvfs-backend bug ;)))
<mr_pouit> yeah, but I mean: we don't know them before the release ;D
<knome> mmh. i see what you mean
<knome> i hope that too
<knome> there shouldn't be much surprises though
<knome> as we have a good roadmap
<knome> and (any) planning (at all)!!!
<pleia2> fwiw, livecd testing goes over very well at jams I run, if we could add more comprehensive testing for livecd maybe it would catch more?
<pleia2> the current livecd test script is pretty basic
<GridCube> mr_pouit, will we sheep gvfs-backends on precise?!
<knome> we won't touch sheeps
<pleia2> sheep++
<madnick> sheeps are awesome :]
<astraljava> We won't, but jussi will.
<pleia2> what if I promise to walk and feed them
<knome> astraljava, ouch
<jussi> sheep!!!
<knome> jussi, get your dirty tumblers off of sheep
 * GridCube http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HNMq8XS4LhE
<knome> ermmmm
<knome> GridCube, i'm not really sure if that was appropriate.
<GridCube> :( sorry
<knome> np. just remember all the #xubuntu channels are family friendly
<knome> mr_pouit, maybe we can use the larger text size in the "accessibility" app set if we decide to do those
<mr_pouit> maybe, but then we'll need another set of xubuntu-default-settings, etc.
<knome> i undestand.
<bkerensa> pleia2 said the sprint is starting soon so I came quickly :)
<pleia2> :)
 * knome hopes the website stays up all the sprint ;]
<pleia2> hehe
<bkerensa> :P
<pleia2> will be a good test of wordpress
<knome> i'm not worried of wordpress
<bkerensa> LOL
<knome> i'm worried of the canonical server
<bkerensa> yeah
<pleia2> oh, the old site?
<bkerensa> Wordpress is fine :D
<pleia2> there have been problems with fridge since the move to WP :\
<knome> right
<knome> i haven't had any problems with our wp installation
<bkerensa> pleia2: What kind of problems? :D I spend epic amounts of time working with WP
<pleia2> akgraner found someone in IS to hold accountable if it dies though :)
<knome> maybe fridge uses some weird plugins?
<knome> pleia2, eh? :D
<pleia2> it's just high traffic so it gets resource wedged sometimes
<knome> mmhm
<bkerensa> pleia2: W3 Total Cache + Cloudflare would solve that
<pleia2> bkerensa: I don't run it, it's within canonical's wp infrastructure
<bkerensa> pleia2: What does that mean? :) Does that mean they handle all administration of the install?
<pleia2> boo, upgrade on my other system is not done yet
<pleia2> bkerensa: yes
<bkerensa> pleia2: Oh well then that makes sense :P
<knome> well not "all administration", but definitely anything that concerns touching files :P
<pleia2> yeah, we just get wp logins
<knome> we do have admin accounts though
<bkerensa> knome: Kind of silly if they dont know how to run a good install ;)
<knome> phew :)
<knome> any plugins being solutions can be debatable
<bkerensa> knome: Well if you have admin access you can drop in W3 Total Cache which powers the highest traffic WP sites on the web
<bkerensa> :D
<knome> bkerensa, nope, when you can't get any files installed.
<knome> admin access only concerns wp, not the server
<bkerensa> Admin access on a WP install though allows you to go to > Plugins > Add New > Upload Plugin
<pleia2> there was a pretty high profile case of the community servers getting hacked several years ago, since then they've really locked down what us mere mortals can do, all plugins go through code review
<pleia2> bkerensa: only if you have the ftp info, which we don't
<knome> bkerensa, won't work, since *we don't have access to files*
<bkerensa> ahh
<knome> pleia2, the funny thing is that if a plugin has had any signs of being unsafe in its history, it will be rejected
<madnick> 22:00 UTC \:D/
<knome> pleia2, contrary to plugins that haven't had any problems (yet), and might still pass the IS teams eyes
<pleia2> not funny, I do the same thing at work (history of problems leads one to suspect that the plugin developers aren't security aware)
<pleia2> if there have been several releases without issues, maybe..
<pleia2> madnick: fast clock!
<pleia2> now it's 22:00 :)
<madnick> pleia2: :o
<knome> yeah well, a problem in the past doesn't mean the developer wasn't security aware
<madnick> :D
<knome> might be connected to something else than the plugin code (only)
<pleia2> ok, website sprint time!
 * knome started gathering developertools/
<pleia2> so we're moving from our old xubuntu.org on drupal to wordpress, which is currently staged here: wp.xubuntu.com
<pleia2> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Website/Sprint has the basics of what we want to do today
<pleia2> the list of pages is actuall over on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Website
<GridCube> :)
<pleia2> so I figure we all just dive in where we want, and discuss what we're doing here
<knome> if you have a proposal for new content, you can pastebin and either me or pleia2 will take care of getting it up
<pleia2> knome: we have two links still pointing to my old staging site, do we have a link for "Subscribe to our news via email Â»"?
<knome> humm
 * pleia2 updates rss link
 * knome checks
<knome> updated the mail-link
<knome> GridCube, do you have the top10 list handy?
<pleia2> ah, wp is warning me that you're editing it
<GridCube> i wikied it
<knome> pleia2, not any more
<GridCube> i have the gdoc too
<knome> just paste either
<GridCube> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Website/Top10
<bkerensa> Transposh is a good WP translation tool
<pleia2> ok, added rss link
<knome> bkerensa, can you add that to our wiki, so we can check that out?
<bkerensa> kk
<knome> thanks
<knome> pleia2, would you add the top 10 faq as article or pagE?
<pleia2> knome: on http://wp.xubuntu.org/archive/ we have "Quick Links" but the right hand side is otherwise empty
<pleia2> knome: yep!
<pleia2> thanks GridCube :)
<pleia2> do we just want it to be /faq?
<knome> err yep to what?
<knome> "article or page" -> "yep" ?
<pleia2> yep to faq
<knome> ugh
<GridCube> if you decide to add it as an article then it should be "oneiric top 10" and the next cycle we do some new ones
<knome> i'm adding it :D
<knome> but do we want it as page or article
<knome> i'd say article
<knome> i'd say let's try to have as little pages as possible
<pleia2> oh, I see what you were asking
<knome> :)
<GridCube> as said, if article it should be Onerici Top 10
<knome> GridCube, agreed.
<pleia2> I was thinking page, but article may make sense since having a history of them would be good
<knome> pleia2, we can still link to the article even in the footer
 * pleia2 nods
<knome> pleia2, and just change the url of the link once we have a new FAQ
<knome> oki
 * knome goes adding the article
<bkerensa> I might suggest Yoast or HeadSpace2 for SEO optimizations and possibly including sitemap in robots.txt and disallow /wp-admin/ 
<GridCube> oh, you could add a top10 and link to all the top10's like some search
<knome> we can add a top10-tag for them
<GridCube> like a tag search
 * GridCube highfives knome 
<knome> pleia2, ugh. headers in post should all be smaller than the .post-title header
<pleia2> yeah
<knome> huh
<knome> i think it's only h2 that is working oddly
<bkerensa> What is the position on adding sharing buttons either manually or via a plugin? Like Twitter, FB, G+ for news posts?
<knome> bkerensa, there's been no discussion of that.
<knome> pleia2, can you suggest a good name for the category for non-news posts?
<pleia2> hmm
<pleia2> maybe just "article"?
<knome> or "Articles" ?
<pleia2> sure
<pleia2> bkerensa: I'd rather avoid them, I find them to be tacky and add load time to pages
<pleia2> particularly on sites that aren't blogs
<bkerensa> k
<knome> http://wp.xubuntu.org/articles/faq-1110-oneiric/
<pleia2> \o/
<pleia2> hmm, the search box follows me
<knome> ? :D
<GridCube> what search box?
<pleia2> oh, that's just while I'm logged in
<pleia2> :)
<GridCube> it looks empty
<GridCube> that white space on the side, it should have pretty pictues
<GridCube> i can take pictures illustrating FAQ stuff
<knome> it will have links
<GridCube> ok
<GridCube> :)
<knome> it's sidebar that is shared with all the pages
<GridCube> yes i see
<GridCube> :)
<GridCube> i can see "Quick Links" on firefox, but no on Chromium
<beardygnome> hi, which pages are we discussing atm?
<bkerensa> Could reduce page load times by minifying js and css and smushing all images
<knome> beardygnome, any ;]
 * pleia2 looks on firefox
<beardygnome> the link is wp.xubuntu.org, right?
<knome> y
<GridCube> still that, in midori i can see the [Quick links] too
<GridCube> not on links2, but i wasnt counting on that one :P
<beardygnome> GridCube: i can see "Quick Links" in chromium, ff and midori
<GridCube> how weird
<beardygnome> it's a different colour in chromium
<GridCube> http://imagebin.org/184811
<beardygnome> black, rather than grey
<GridCube> yes, the words under the page title are black on chromium, grey on the rest
<beardygnome> oh, we're looking at different pages :-)
<pleia2> in firefox I get a bit of overflow on my 1024 width screen: http://princessleia.com/temp/xubuntu_firefox_1024.png
<pleia2> for "Quick Links"
<knome> humm
<knome> why aren't these bugs reported earlier?
<pleia2> I hadn't looked at it in firefox until now
<beardygnome> in chromium, "Quick Links" appears at the bottom of the page
<SiDi> what is wp.x.o ?
<GridCube> wordpress
<knome> SiDi, a secret.
<beardygnome> pleia2: i get that overflow in ff on my netbook too
<bkerensa> Hmm no overflow on my FF http://i.imgur.com/RK72V.png
<SiDi> pleia2: your problem comes from the fact that the content has a fixed min width but not the white background part :p
<beardygnome> "Quick Links" appears at the bottom of the page in midori too....
<GridCube> oh, if i resize the window it happens too, 
<bkerensa> 1366x768 is my resolution
<SiDi> pleia2: just throw a couple stones to the website dev and if they survive it should be fixed within a week
<knome> SiDi, thanks mate
 * SiDi grabs some stones, looking at knome with a sadistic smile.
 * knome grabs SiDi's "stones"
<pleia2> SiDi: we're in the middle of a website sprint, finding this kind of problem for knome to fix is part of what we're working on :)
<SiDi> I'll allow myself to state two things I see as problems in the FAQ post (3 actually)
<bkerensa> website looks good in Lynx
<SiDi> 1) there should be a menu at the top, helps to find content quicker imho
<knome> SiDi, 1) there will be a menu on the sidebar
<SiDi> 2) commands should be displayed with a different font style to be easily differentiated 
<knome> SiDi, 2) i'm on that *right now*
<SiDi> 3) some stuff is quite technical, not very educative, 
<SiDi> knome: you rock
<SiDi> (no pun intented)
<knome> SiDi, 3) so? that's what the users come asking from us.
<pleia2> these faq are directly collected from IRC
<pleia2> (thanks GridCube!)
<beardygnome> is "Quick Links" supposed to be a link?
<SiDi> knome: which users? :) the ones who can find their way to here, imo, may be a subset of those able to find the website
<SiDi> so its interesting to make sure that these users find their information, but that at the same time it can be served to the rest of website users
<pleia2> they are the frequently asked questions from IRC
<SiDi> (ok, no idea what their profile and competences in CS are, and how to do that :p just speculatingÃ )
<pleia2> we don't really have a mechanism for figuring out what other people are asking
<GridCube> lol i found quick links on chromium  http://imagebin.org/184814
<SiDi> "In Xfce 4.8" font size bigger than h1 and h2 sizes.
<pleia2> I think that's the same issue knome mentioned earlier
<SiDi> (now that i'm happy having made noise and annoyed knome i'll go work too... good luck to everybody working)
<pleia2> hah, thanks SiDi 
<beardygnome> shouldn't "In Xfce 4.8" be the same size as "In Xfce 4.6"?
<knome> beardygnome, yes. i was just testing.
<beardygnome> and just use the colour to highlight the first one?
<GridCube> knome, on faq6 you should add "be aware that allacarte tries to pull half of unity/compiz with it, you *HAVE* to use --no-install-recommends"
<beardygnome> knome: i think we should explain why it has to be done like this and that they shouldn't use synaptic / software centre etc
<beardygnome> knome: personally, i'd have them smaller than that
<knome> beardygnome, me too. that's the problem me and SiDi, and now you, noticed.
 * GridCube knows he should have to had worked on this previously to now :(
<beardygnome> i don't think they should be bigger than the questions
<knome> beardygnome, that's fixed locally, and i'll push that to LP later today, and it will be pulled to production as soon as somebody from IS has time
<knome> GridCube, yes :P
<SiDi> knome: i wanna do a MSc of psychology :(
<knome> http://temp.knome.fi/xubuntu/web_sprint/code.png
<beardygnome> i'd still make the blue text smaller
<knome> yes, that will be made smaller too :P
<knome> just ignore that in that shot
<SiDi> i'd use light grey bg / some dark font (maybe slightly "ice blue", but dark?) so that it's less disruptive
<SiDi> here these dark squares just catch the eye and make it harder to focus on a phrase
<knome> SiDi, are you sure, would YOU really use tat?
<pleia2> on the front page we have xubuntu with thunar, how many images should we page through? what apps to showcase?
<pleia2> (remember, it's a small image :))
<knome> something like 5 might be optimal
<knome> 10 is too much
<knome> people will never get to the last images
<pleia2> sounds good
<SiDi> knome: maybe not the font fg color (althought i'm curious how it'd look), but yeah
<SiDi> maybe i didnt explain my idea clearly tho
<knome> http://temp.knome.fi/xubuntu/web_sprint/code-2.png
<knome> SiDi, you know i'm just teasing you?
<SiDi> knome: i like that. 
<beardygnome> i like that too
<knome> ooohhh, the SiDi approves
<SiDi> i'd like a " blue" fg font, but not the same as the normal text, just something "bluer" to have a better contrast with the slightly darker bg
<SiDi> that was my idea :D
 * SiDi hugs knome.
<SiDi> (the that was my idea referring to my directly previous sentence*)
<knome> somebody willing to write something for about/ ?
<knome> there is ideas on the wiki
<olbi> hello
 * GridCube is afraid of his ugly ugly engresh
<GridCube> :D hi olbi 
<knome> we can make pleia2 proof-read it
<pleia2> yes, I can proof read
<pleia2> replacing current text, or modifying?
<GridCube> I was saying the other day, olbi, that i was up to translate the top10 to spaÃ±ish, and i was sure you would want to do a translation too :D just to have more content n the site
<knome> pleia2, i think it would be mostly appending
<beardygnome> knome: what do you want writing, there's already a lot of text there
<olbi> GridCube, you mean my natove lang?
<knome> What is Xubuntu?
<knome> What is Ubuntu?
<knome> How does Xubuntu differ from Ubuntu?
<knome> What is Xfce?
<knome> How does (X)ubuntu differ from OSX/Windows? 
<olbi> native*
<GridCube> olbi, :) yes ofcourse
<olbi> GridCube, ok :)
<beardygnome> why is the about page so narrow?
<knome> narrow?
<SiDi> GridCube: where are you from in spain?
<GridCube> so beardygnome you do the /about?
<GridCube> SiDi, :) no, im from argentina
<beardygnome> when do you need it for?
<olbi> I actually translate Xfce files and try to Geany soon :]
<knome> beardygnome, asap :]
<GridCube> yes i knew that :D
<knome> beardygnome, but not like, in the next 10 minutes or even today...
<GridCube> not about geany tho :P
<beardygnome> ok, i'll do that
<knome> beardygnome, thanks!
<SiDi> GridCube: oh okey, sorry :p
<GridCube> :D np
<knome> beardygnome, you can use https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Website/Drafts to work on it
<beardygnome> ok
<olbi> I wonder, why so many programs for GTK+ are type in C, not in C++ :]
<knome> olbi, can you continue in -offtopic?
<olbi> ok sorry
<knome> np
<knome> pleia2, with which browser did you have the overlapping issue?
<GridCube> all of them
<GridCube> just resize the window
<pleia2> knome: firefox on a small screen (1024x600 resolution)
<knome> hmm.
<knome> i'm unable to reproduce.
<pleia2> on an article
<beardygnome> knome: i can confirm the issue on my netbook
<knome> pleia2, ah!
<pleia2> sorry, pages are ok
<knome> gotcha..
<knome> i wonder what that is about
 * knome goes looking
<pleia2> anyone have thoughts on how we want the mirrors to be listed? http://wp.xubuntu.org/getxubuntu/
<pleia2> I think it looks ok like that
<knome> which?
<knome> LTS or natty
<pleia2> natty, but probably both
<pleia2> on the old site they were styled the same way
<olbi> we need last 18 months supported and LTS :) 
<olbi> I think so
<GridCube> i would like that >torrents are preffered" be a link
<knome> yes, but they are different to show a few options to style them
<GridCube> or that just below it its shown a big >Torrent Downloads
<GridCube> and then the list
<knome> what about iso country codes?
<GridCube> nah
<knome> FI, US, PL, GE
<olbi> nah
<beardygnome> knome: onei
<knome> ric?
<beardygnome> knome: oneiric is current version
<beardygnome> not natty
<GridCube> ^^^
<knome> beardygnome, yeah. that's copied to that site while natty was current
 * GridCube has noticed the wiki say natty too
<knome> GridCube, didn't fix it though?
<beardygnome> we should state the advantages of using a close mirror, so people know why it helps
 * GridCube didn't knew if he should had touch the base wiki page without asking
<beardygnome> something like "this will give you a faster download"
<knome> beardygnome, well, we can't really promise that...
<GridCube> beardygnome, sue
<pleia2> I think people will naturally click one near theme
<knome> GridCube, could've told somebody too
<pleia2> them
<knome> yeah.
<GridCube> :P i did
<GridCube> just now
<beardygnome> knome: so what's the advantage of using the mirrors then?
<knome> beardygnome, they *can* give you better speeds. and without mirrors, the central server would have a huge load
<GridCube> less work for main servers
<beardygnome> ok then, "this should give you a faster download"
<GridCube> :)
<olbi> Ok, I go sleep when we start translate page?
<knome> olbi, once a translation plugin is installed
<knome> olbi, no idea when that will happen
<olbi> so only watch IRC for infos
<pleia2> ok, we have 4 screenshots on the front page now (instead of one and a giant COF)
<knome> olbi, hopefully before precise
<knome> pleia2, nice ;))
<olbi> bye all :D
<GridCube> :D
<beardygnome> very nice pleia2
<GridCube> but but i can't clic on them
<GridCube> D:
<knome> GridCube, you are not supposed to??
<pleia2> there isn't anything to click to
<GridCube> why?
<knome> GridCube, because they are not links
<GridCube> i want to see screenshots
<knome> GridCube, images.google.com
<knome> ;]
<GridCube> D: i want official sources!
<GridCube> screenshots are elemental
<knome> i'm just wondering why you haven't raised this issue before
<pleia2> yeah, we don't have them on the current site either
<GridCube> because i didnt know you had no plans to have a screenshot area
<GridCube> well thats bad
<knome> err, it was visible for like months...
<knome> (the staging site)
<pleia2> http://xubuntu.org/shots is empty ;)
<GridCube> yeah, well, i never occured to me they weren't clikeable, im now trying to see it as someone who's thinking on installing the OS
<GridCube> and wants to see how it looks like
<GridCube> i remember they being clickeable
<GridCube> ...
<GridCube> my mind is playing tricks with me
<pleia2> if someone is willing to maintain it we can talk about it, but it's hard enough to maintain the rest of the screenshots on the site (we updated them for natty, but not for oneiric)
<pleia2> natty and oneiric look close enough :)
<GridCube> we should have a "post your screenshots" and ask people to post theirs
<pleia2> but no, it was never clickable
<madnick> can i help with anything?
<pleia2> oh nooo, I don't think we want to open ourselves to that
<beardygnome> GridCube: i don't think that is a good idea
<knome> GridCube, yeah. we asked people to post screenshots for gmb-shimmer. we got 0.
<pleia2> and having user uploaded content is dangerous
<beardygnome> people could post anything
<GridCube> you just said they where tynier and you made them bigger
<GridCube> when they where tinyer you could clic to make them bigger
<GridCube> i remember that
<knome> i can't remember anybody saying that for the screenshot are
<knome> +a
<knome> pleia2, is there something madnick could help with?
<GridCube> well i don't know
<knome> i've been focusing on the theme issues
<pleia2> I'd say everyone can help with content review
<pleia2> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Website#Pages lists them all
<pleia2> so just grab the page name and stick it on the end of http://wp.xubuntu.org/
<pleia2> and start exploring :)
<knome> we need a sitemap template
<knome> if we want to add a sitemap page
<GridCube> well, i remember that on the meetings we discussed adding screenshots a few months ago
<pleia2> and a mockup of some of the ideas we had for the getxubuntu/ site would be good
<knome> pleia2, do you have the web developer extension for FF?
<GridCube> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Meetings/Archive/Minutes/2011-07-17
<pleia2> knome: no, link?
<knome> http://chrispederick.com/work/web-developer/
<pleia2> GridCube: those aren't for a screenshot page, those are the regular screenshots for: http://xubuntu.org/tour and such
<GridCube> well yes
<beardygnome> "Include shots in about/ " is listed in the wiki
<knome> yes?
<GridCube> what change does it make to the point?
<knome> beardygnome, mmh. that's the idea
<knome> beardygnome, or, that was my idea, since a separate shots page is hard to maintain
<GridCube> so the images there should link to bigger images
<GridCube> in /about
<GridCube> or wherever
<beardygnome> i agree
<beardygnome> or....
<knome> that should probably done with fancybox or something.
<beardygnome> click the images on the home page takes you to /about#screenshots
<beardygnome> ?
<knome> beardygnome, i wasn't thinking of adding a separate subtitle for shots, just drop them in here and there
<beardygnome> ok
<beardygnome> thought that might be easier to code
<knome> we are going to need IS to act on the changes anyway
<knome> and at this point we already need some changes
<knome> so... doesn't really matter
<knome> it's just that i would have hoped this to be raised earlier
<knome> the staging site definitely hasn't been any secret
<pleia2> and this is how the old site has been all along
<GridCube> knome, :/ sorry
<GridCube> pleia2, but aint we changing to a new one?
<knome> GridCube, yes, but issues should have been raised against the old site too
<knome> GridCube, if you really think that was suboptimal
<knome> GridCube, or, during the development, against the new site, and constantly pursuing your ideas
<GridCube> i figured that, given that the site was being droped anyway, why bother
<pleia2> it's fine, I'm just surprised that it took until we're about to launch a whole new site to bring up an issue that's been around for years
<GridCube> :(
<GridCube> sorry 
<knome> the reality is that we are still running the old site
<knome> much could have been done with it alone, too
<knome> especially content-wise
<knome> that would have made the transition to the new site smoother
<pleia2> GridCube: it's ok, that's why we have today, but we can't promise everything will be fixed by launch time at this point
<GridCube> actually I've been around here less than 6 months :( i don't know much about things
<pleia2> we've been working on this for over 6 months already
<GridCube> will try to rise my complains earlier now
<knome> now we have to care about code *and* content
<knome> GridCube, thanks.
<pleia2> knome: so, quick links, what is going there? will we have them on Pages and Articles?
<knome> GridCube, btw, the deadline for submitting ideas about precise is on monday. if you have ideas for it, please add them to the roadmap now, as now is a correct time
<pleia2> (sorry if you've talked about this in the past, I forget)
<knome> pleia2, quick links is visible everywhere except frontpage
<knome> pleia2, that's why this is on the wiki:
<knome> " Rethink the lower-right space on the frontpage, do we want more links rather than three huge ones? "
<beardygnome> quick links will appear on the right hand side of the page?
<GridCube> pleia2, I understand, anyway its just my opinion you dont have to please me, just do what is best for the site
<knome> to make it even more consistent
<knome> beardygnome, yes.
<GridCube> :)
<pleia2> knome: ok, so "quick links" would be links to major portions of the site that may be of interest?
<beardygnome> that makes the pages very narrow on my netbook
<knome> pleia2, yeah. and we can add a search box, category listings etc (any widget) there too
<knome> beardygnome, there is a min-width set for the content area
<knome> beardygnome, the content should be readable
<knome> (always)
<knome> the frontpage needs some love though, on smaller screens
<knome> but i've got that mostly covered already
<GridCube> in /help there should be a link to the tag search of top10
<GridCube> with; "Read our most usual questions"
<GridCube> or something like tht
<pleia2> under Online Documentation?
<knome> pleia2, http://wp.xubuntu.org/articles/tag/faq/
<GridCube> yes, or community support
<beardygnome> http://imagebin.org/184829
<knome> beardygnome, maybe the shot should be smaller.
<pleia2> heh, "Tech Support System" links to an old tickets thing that redirects to answers.launchpad.net
<knome> :P
<pleia2> we can probably rewrite that to be something like "Answers sites" and include askubuntu.com too
<GridCube> :)
<knome> urgh
<GridCube> there is no "strips" background image on midori :P
<GridCube> oh, there is
<pleia2> ok, updated /help
<GridCube> it just took a lot of time
<GridCube> to load
<knome> pleia2, we probably should link to /help from the faq article too
<GridCube> oh :D quick links is there now for chromiums
<pleia2> knome: maybe in an introduction to the FAQ?
<GridCube> knome, yes, that faq10 is silly XD
<pleia2> "The following are FAQ, for more help see..."
<knome> pleia2, question #10
<pleia2> oh :)
<pleia2> on it
#xubuntu-devel 2011-11-20
<pleia2> ok, linked
<GridCube> :D purrfect
 * knome needs to fix the plugin too...
<pleia2> we hit the 2 hour mark here, do we want to take what we have for now and regroup later in the week to figure out the final stuff to do?
<GridCube> :( again sorry for making so late remarks
<pleia2> GridCube: thanks for bringing them up anyway, gives us more to think about moving forward
<GridCube> :)
<knome> pleia2, yeah i think that would be more productive
<knome> was thinking the same a moment ago
<pleia2> ok, thanks everyone :)
<knome> thanks
<GridCube> :)
<knome> pleia2, maybe reschedule to max 2 weeks from now?
<knome> i could look at the theme/plugin issues meanwhile, so i could concentrate more on the content the next time
<pleia2> knome: sounds good :)
 * pleia2 nods
<knome> pleia2, would you like to do that?
<pleia2> sounds good! while you're working on theme things feel free to nudge me for testing now and then
<knome> 22UTC is kind of late for me, but i suppose it's okay if you can't do any earlier
<knome> yeah, i will
<pleia2> usually I can do earlier, I just had lunch plans today :)
<knome> i think i'll set up yet an another installation for this :P
<knome> to see any more regressions
<knome> yeah
<pleia2> you're welcome to keep using the install on dagobah
<knome> i might have done some hacks there already ;)
<pleia2> it doesn't reboot all the time anymore!
<pleia2> ah, yeah
<knome> want a clean installation
 * pleia2 nods
<knome> anyway
<knome> can you suggest some times for the sprint for example in our meeting on monday?
<pleia2> will do
 * pleia2 hopes to know when she goes on an airplane next by then (we're doing a mileage run weekend adventure some weekend in december, woo)
<knome> okay, thanks
<knome> aha
 * pleia2 wanders off to do hous ethings
<pleia2> house
<knome> :)
<knome> see you!
<SiDi> I think even knome is sleeping by now.
<GridCube> yep
<astraljava> He might be. He's a sissy, you know.
<benonsoftware> Who is in chage of the Xubuntu website?
 * madnick is confused
<madnick> we decided on having a checkbutton for enabling autologin
<madnick> But: Whats the point if user is grayed out? :P
<madnick> Because we decided on that aswell, if we use it like it is, then: Its just a switch button for enabling the controls themselves
<madnick> Which could be fine, I don't know
<madnick> [madnick] Implement autologin: BLOCKED ;)
<alco75> hi Xubuntu devs/contribs, thanks for all your hard work on the distro :)
<knome> madnick, huh?
<knome> madnick, yeah, it could be a switch button enabling the controls
<knome> madnick, as long as there is no autologin when they are greyed out
<madnick> knome: well, its not just for the current user, its for all of them 
<madnick> So, it may be enabled for some right
<madnick> that is the problem
<knome> hÃ¤?
<madnick> There can only be 1 autologin user
<knome> yes
<madnick> But, this is a selection for all users, to take over that
<knome> as long as a user has sudo right, the controls should be enabled
<madnick> Yes, but the users are listed
<knome> ..yes?
<knome> is that a problem
<madnick> Wait, im gonna see if i can formulate this better
<madnick> :P
<knome> okay
<madnick> Acctually, I think I'll do this: If autologin is enabled for *any* user, the checkbutton is ticked by default, if not, you have to tick it yourself :)
<knome> yes.
<knome> that makes perfect sense
<madnick> Yes, but that was not what we said when we discussed it :P
<knome> that's how i think ochosi imagined it
<knome> hah :
<knome> :)
<knome> anybody has the default /etc/xdg/menus/xfce-applications.menu or know where to find it?
<mr_pouit> knome: libgarcon-common for the upstream one, and xubuntu-default-settings for our custom version (it's in /etc/xdg/xdg-xubuntu/menus/xfce-applications.menu)
<knome> thanks :)
<ochosi> madnick: heyo, how's it goin?
<madnick> ochosi: hi
<madnick> ochosi: well, im working on the lightdm implementation draft :)
<madnick> ochosi: http://www.madnick.se/~madnick/ldms3.ogg that works now
<madnick> is the GUI satesfactory?
<ochosi> yah, just saw the video-link in -offtopic and looked at it
<ochosi> very nice!
<ochosi> btw, enable border in the listview ,)
<ochosi> ;)
<madnick> right!
<madnick> :D
<ochosi> it really works as expected otherwise, good work!
<madnick> ok good
<madnick> also
<madnick> I extracted most of the image things from the draft you gave me
<madnick> But some things I couldnt extract
<madnick> Like the box for the users
<madnick> I tried toggling all of the "eyes"
<madnick> Is that part of another one?
<ochosi> right, i think it's only a lineout, not a real/full image in the sense
<ochosi> i guess it'd be better to do that with css
<madnick> oh okay
<ochosi> i guess you'll use some kind of input-boxes there anyway, no?
<madnick> for the password? yes
<madnick> im a bit blocked on the matter, becasue i need to implement more of the exposure api, before i can fetch all things needed
<ochosi> k, errm, which "box for the users" where you referring to exactly btw?
<ochosi> right
<ochosi> well, no hurry, you're already pretty good in timing with the settings-gui, that's really coming along very nicels
<ochosi> nicely
<madnick> well i meant the rect box
<madnick> with the small nicknames
<ochosi> oh, i see
<ochosi> i can export that for you if it helps
<madnick> would be great :)
<ochosi> you mean with the: avatar|rn(username)
<madnick> yes, that box
<ochosi> madnick: http://imagebin.org/184899
<madnick> thanks
<ochosi> np
<ochosi> k, g2g. have a nice evening everyone!
<madnick> cya
#xubuntu-devel 2012-11-12
<ochosi> ok, so the point was (now for everyone to read): do we want a png-icon-theme by default
<GridCube> whats the difference with non png icon themes?
<ochosi> png is much faster
<GridCube> thats good
<ochosi> it increases performance visibly
<GridCube> more good
<ochosi> but there are two problems with it:
<ochosi> 1) it doesn't get scaled, so i have to draw lots of missing icon-sizes
<ochosi> 2) it's much larger in filesizes, ~2times the size
<ochosi> so it'd be ~55mb instead of 27mb
<SkippersBoss> What is the speed difference. 
<pleia2> I think strategy document wise, we stick with non-png
<ochosi> so that brings up the question whether we should go for a 1gb image instead of the CD image
<ochosi> because making 25 extra mb isn't all-too-realistic
<pleia2> we're not going for fast over usability, I can imagine all the "missing icons" bugs :\
<SkippersBoss> I do not think after the search for bites for the last release we can afford it
<mr_pouit> (nick was able toto see a visible speed increase even with an i5 or something very recent)
<ochosi> pleia2: well, no missing icons, they'd just be e.g. too large :} no, but i'm willing to work on that
<SkippersBoss> Can we update ubottuto relay all them bug reports to ochosi 
<GridCube> ochosi, oh... but space its a HUGE concern, unless we choose to go dvd and no cd size anymore
<GridCube> i mean, we drop languages for space, languages
<SkippersBoss> I second that
<ochosi> GridCube: well yes, that's the point of the discussion
<SkippersBoss> not only languages
<pleia2> ochosi: I use a lot of wrong size icons that scale nicely, I imagine a lot of people do and it would be a pretty obvious visual regression
<ochosi> SkippersBoss: all theme and icon-bugs already go to me
<SkippersBoss> :-)
<GridCube> im sorry bug space its more important than speed on my book
<ochosi> pleia2: what do you mean? you _consciously_ use wrong-size icons? =)
<pleia2> ochosi: I just clicky clicky to find a nice icon to match what I put in my panel, I don't much pay attention to the size
<GridCube> i usually just get 256x256 icons and they scale nicely
<ochosi> pleia2: in the panel they'd be scaled i think. it's more about menus
<ochosi> pleia2: so it's less about app-icons than gtk-actions and gtk-stock in general
<pleia2> and I think it would be impossible to track down every use of every size of icon in whatever people are using for panels/docks/whatever additional thing they're adding to make xfce work they way they want it to
<pleia2> (plus it would increase the size even more)
<ochosi> the faenza-icon theme proves you wrong
<ochosi> (i mean faenza icon-theme :))
<ochosi> it's definitely not impossible
<pleia2> ok
<ochosi> but i'm not willing to even start working on this unless we have a clear decision, that's why i thought i'd bring it up (again)
<ochosi> partly also because NSchermer wrote a script to convert the theme to png
<GridCube> if its more space consuming, no.
<ochosi> which means we can maintain it as svg and ship it as png
<ochosi> GridCube: you're worrying about 25mb of free space?
<knome> the thing is, we decided that we should fit a CD for Q, meaning we should try to do that for the next LTS too
<SkippersBoss> ochosi, not if the next release will be on DVD
<GridCube> ochosi, the problem is, im sure there are going to be lots of other space consuming things, if there are, every bit counts
<knome> it is of course open for discussion, but we already have done one release with the CD-target
<knome> we might be able to drop python2 from R
<SkippersBoss> euh ?? hmm
<GridCube> id prefer less speed, for more options on the install cd, namely langs
<ochosi> the point is that xubuntu will be always slow, not just on the install-cd
<knome> depends on the speed difference
<ochosi> the options you're talking about only affect the one-time process of installing
<SkippersBoss> Knome has a point in does R need to be released on CD
<ochosi> (juist saying)
<GridCube> ochosi, i do understand that. Can't it be made a -png package that you can install to replace -svg icons? like "for reasons of space we ship this svg icons that make the  system slower, if you want fastiness, try xubuntu-icons-png"
<knome> that sounds like something i wouldn't want to do
<ochosi> +1
<ochosi> k, g2g now, prolly bbl
<bluesabre_> oh how far we have come.  http://chrishaney.com/?linux&release=Xubuntu%206.10
<knome> heh
<pleia2> oh nice, knome already made the switch to 12.10 on our website
<pleia2> <3
<knome> haha, sure
<pleia2> http://www.everydaylinuxuser.com/2012/11/xubuntu-1210-day-1-first-impressions.html
<knome> feel free to add to the press page
<pleia2> and as always http://news.softpedia.com/news/Xubuntu-12-10-Has-Been-Officially-Released-Screenshot-Tour-300260.shtml
<knome> :)
 * pleia2 gets to adding
<knome> thanks
<pleia2> getting new screenshots is also on my todo list
<pleia2> I'll try to get to it today
 * astraljava didn't have the privilege of using Xubuntu back in the Edgy times, yet.
<astraljava> Didn't look _too_ bad.
<knome> pleia2, cheers!
<pleia2> knome: also will review the mailing list settings
<knome> woohoo
#xubuntu-devel 2012-11-13
<adnan> hello all :)
<ochosi> hi
<adnan> how's it going :)
<ochosi> good
<ochosi> made some progress again on the weather icons
<adnan> oh, mind if i take a peek? :))
<ochosi> no, it's on github, so it's public anyway
<adnan> ah right, I'll pull them 
<adnan> could you show weather preview thing
<adnan> forecast :)
<ochosi> e.g. like this: http://imagebin.org/235669
<ochosi> as you can see the 48px aren't finished
<adnan> mhm, they look great :)
<adnan> great job
<ochosi> thanks
<ochosi> the main issue is the sun in 48px
<ochosi> as soon as i've done that, i think it'll be easy to finish the rest
<pleia2> our site is feeling better now, squid had gone wonky
<knome> pleia2, yeah, good.
<pleia2> there, http://xubuntu.org/press/ now has many things
<knome> shiny
<pleia2> knome: do we want non-subscribers to ever be able to post to -devel? (I'm wondering if we should just reject them all, instead of putting them into moderation)
<knome> pleia2, can we have some kind of *more friendly* message to subscribe then?
<pleia2> where? in the message rejected notice?
<knome> yes
<knome> iirc, the current one is mailman default, which is kind of dull
<knome> i think adding some kind of xubuntu-specific message, even if it essentially said the same, could be good
<pleia2> I'll have a look :)
<knome> i think we definitely can change that
<knome> i think i've even seen that field
<knome> but the thing is we should write it
 * pleia2 nods
<knome> we probably even should write something about if it's about support, don't subscribe and resend
<knome> but rather send to -users
<pleia2> yeah
<knome> heh
<knome> photoshop font selecting
<knome> you can't select a font that starts with a small letter by writing the name, even if you typed with small letters
<knome> typing "ne" doesn't suggest "nevis", but happily suggests "Negotiate"
<pleia2> hehe
<pleia2> sounds broken, should submit a patch
<pleia2> (oh wait!)
<knome> hahah
<knome> well, it's CS2, so not too current anyway ;)
<pleia2> ah :)
<knome> worksforme though, not too many "kewl" features
#xubuntu-devel 2012-11-14
<adnan> knome, ochosi hello :)
<knome> adnan, hey
<adnan> how's it goin :)
<knome> ine
<knome> +f
<adnan> :)
<knome> adnan, and how are you?
<adnan> I'm fine too, a bit busy with university, got some papers to write
<knome> we're all busy as always
<adnan> I saw new improvements to the weather-icons
<adnan> they're nice :)
<ochosi> adnan: thanks, just finished the 48px set today
<ochosi> adnan: now i gotta do the 128px ones, probably the hardest
<knome> hey ochosi :)
<ochosi> hey there
<adnan> :-)
 * ochosi just watched a ridiculously bad movie :)
<adnan> what's the name
<adnan> haha
<ochosi> you don't wanna know...
 * ochosi hides in shame
 * knome wouldn't be surprised even if the name was "a ridiculously bad movie"
<adnan> hahaha
<ochosi> (abe lin vam hun)
<GridCube> http://www.imdb.com/find?q=a+ridiculously+bad+movie&s=all
<GridCube> nope, such movie doesnt exist
<adnan> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X58RPS665V0
<adnan> well the trailer doesn't promise much lol
<GridCube> !ot
<ubottu> #xubuntu is the Xubuntu support channel, #xubuntu-devel for discussion regarding development of Xubuntu, and #xubuntu-offtopic is for random chatter. Welcome!
<knome> GridCube, <:
<GridCube> C:
<adnan> :>
<ochosi> so many smilies, at least it (the movie) made someone smile
<knome> maybe...
<ochosi> well a sarcastic/ironic smile is still a smile
<knome> or then we're just smiling of inconvenience
<ochosi> even that makes my inner light shine ;)
<bluesabre> got a 128px inner-light icon?
<bluesabre> :D
 * ochosi goes to the drawing board
<bluesabre> don't forget inner-light-rain-sun-thunder
<ochosi> haha
<knome> ..-sleet
<knome> ..-night
<ochosi> yeah, some of those icons and icon-names are over the top
#xubuntu-devel 2012-11-15
<elfy> hi knome - really sorry about weekend, I put my back out :( 
<knome> elfy, aha - no problem
<knome> elfy, i didn't even remember it myself
<elfy> I'm off work for a week now - so anytime you have some to spare for me I'll be about 
<elfy> lol 
<knome> elfy, hope you're feeling better now
<knome> how about in 15 mins?
<elfy> yea - funnily enough I then fell down the stairs and put it back in lol
<elfy> yep - that will be great - ping me :)
<knome> sure
 * knome tries to get some coffee into the machine
<knome> the human machine
<smartboyhw> knome, oh how much coffee is the machine missing?>
<knome> no idea
<astraljava> Still no IV for caffeine... *sigh*
<elfy> lol
<astraljava> C'mon science, how much longer?
<astraljava> *grumble* This isn't it either.
<knome> elfy, ok, i'm all set
<elfy> ok - basically I'm still confused lol 
<knome> yep, just ask anything you need
<knome> we even have astraljava here
<elfy> what is it exactly you want from a QA manager :)
<elfy> lead or what you want to call them 
<knome> the task is pretty much making sure testing will get done
<knome> so 1) send call for testing emails
<knome> 2) if that doesn't work, try other ways
<knome> 3) if that doesn't work, be in contact with me/others about how we could fix the situation
<smartboyhw> elfy, on 2) you have the power on the forums so should be easy for you...
<elfy> :)
<knome> during the R cycle, we want to look at automated testing too
<knome> if you know about that, it's great!
<knome> if you don't, there will be others with you on it
<elfy> knome: I 'know' about it and was set to check the utah things at UDS - unfortunately work interfered 
<knome> we need to see how we can make use of automated testing anyway, and that essentially means people *managing things* should be doing most of the stuff anyway
<elfy> can catch up on that quite quickly I think 
 * smartboyhw needs to learn more about UTAH too
<knome> well, "most"; at least, they should tell what they'd need from automated testing
<knome> i was at a "UTAH school" session, but that was quite boring. i skipped the other part.
<knome> (same goes for pleia2)
<elfy> from my understanding the automated stuff is mostly checking that stuff actually installs - is that correct - in a basic sense?
<knome> for exampel, UTAH itself isn't hard. the hard part is figuring out how we will benefit from it
<knome> elfy, installs, or pretty much anything that returns with an error/pass code
<smartboyhw> knome, oh? I thought it should be fun. (But then probably autopkgtest is better)
<knome> there are other automated testing things too, but i'm not too familiar with them
<elfy> yep - I can spend some time over the next 7 days getting that automated straight in my head and thinking on how we can use it 
<smartboyhw> knome, autopkgtest is what I heard about most
<knome> if you have the time and motivation, it would be great if you could get your head around them, and maybe send some kind of email to the mailing list telling about what they are and how you think we could use them
<smartboyhw> elfy, congrats that you have so much time. (I don't with Physics test on Monday and Geography open-book test on Wednesday
<knome> ultimately, i don't care about automated testing for R or S.
<elfy> ok knome 
<astraljava> knome: Yeah, I'm here. What is it good for? I have no idea.
<elfy> am I right in saying no alphas this cycle and 2 betas 
<knome> but if we can benefit from that, we should start looking at it so we don't need to build the infrastructure during the LTS cycle, when we want/need the tests the most
<knome> yes, we will have two betas but no alphas
<elfy> so we're going to be wanting people to do daily tests when they can and reporting to the tracker
<elfy> and
<smartboyhw> elfy, yep. You got harder work than me then (one beta for Studio only)
<knome> testing before betas shall be "social alphas", and we need to communicate when we want those and what to specifically test
<elfy> also testing specifics as and when they turn up
<elfy> yep - thought I had that right :)
<knome> if we could get daily testing in a better shape, that would be awesome
<knome> again, let's try to pump it slowly up for the LTS
<elfy> one of the other forum admins is also testing xubuntu 
<knome> ok, that's great. is he sending testing reports? :)
<elfy> I'm sure he will - he's the one who's heavily involved in testing
<knome> if you have ideas how to organize daily testing and get the coverage higher, any ideas are welcome
<knome> the mailing list is a good place to throw ideas and brainstorm
<elfy> I'll be posting on the forum in the testing section too - try and get some more of those people involved
<knome> that would be great
<smartboyhw> elfy, try to "bother" balloons as much as he accepts, he really does help you along:D
<knome> we need reliability over quantity really
<elfy> yea - I'll post a couple of threads to the m/l in the next few days then - one about how we'll be testing this cycle and another asking for thoughts about testing generally
<elfy> knome: +1 
<knome> yeah, balloons (nick skaggs) can help you with a lot of things
<elfy> smartboyhw: yea I know all about nick :)
<smartboyhw> elfy, LOL 
<ochosi> hmm, i don't want to interrupt you too much, but have you discussed the testing of individual apps that are targeted for R yet?
<knome> i even fixed his website theme just for fun so i can blackmail him if he's acting wonky :P
<knome> ochosi, no, not yet
<elfy> ha ha ha 
<smartboyhw> knome, what?
<knome> smartboyhw, ?
<knome> elfy, so yeah, we're introducing a "few" new apps for R
<elfy> menulibre for instance?
<knome> elfy, we want "social alphas" to test those
<smartboyhw> knome, you mean you changed balloons' website theme just to blackmail him?
<knome> menulibre, display dialog, gtk color chooser
<smartboyhw> elfy, "social alphas" = cadence testing
<elfy> aah yes - dispaly was the other I remembered vaguely
<knome> smartboyhw, no, i fixed it just for fun. but that allows some blackmailing too d:
<smartboyhw> knome, LOL
<ochosi> well anyway, if/when you discuss testing the individual apps for R, feel free to ping me
<knome> elfy, SUBSCRIBE https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/other-r-xubuntu-testing :)
<elfy> ochosi: cheers
 * smartboyhw will subscribe to the blueprint too
<elfy> done knome 
<knome> elfy, the assignee is xubuntu team just because i don't want to make you feel like you have to work on it. if you rather want it to say elfy, i can change that
<elfy> nah - fine as it is :)
<knome> elfy, and if there is any work items you are working on that aren't listed, please add them and keep the status up-to-date
<elfy> yep - will do that 
<knome> elfy, are you familiar with work items or should we go through that?
<elfy> quick run through would be helpful - I did it once 
<knome> ok
<knome> so the format is
 * astraljava raises eyebrows... "all about nick?"
<knome> [assignee] work item: STATUS
<elfy> astraljava: enough perhaps :)
<knome> assignee is a launchpad nick, you can use teams too
<knome> work item is a short but accurate description what to do
<knome> if you can't keep it in one line, you probably should split it into two or more separate work items
<smartboyhw> astraljava, if elfy knows everything about balloons I will surely tell balloons to hide
<knome> STATUS is one of: BLOCKED, TODO, INPROGRESS, DONE
<knome> they are quite straightforward
<elfy> aah yes - I remember fighting that status thing last time :)
<knome> use BLOCKED whenever you need somebody else to do something before proceeding
<elfy> k
<knome> or even if you need broader discussion before continuing
<knome> and if you mark something as blocked... you probably should add another work item
<elfy> yep - that makes sense 
<knome> [lp-nick] do something that unblocks another item: TODO
<elfy> fairly logical really
<knome> yep
<elfy> cool - that all makes sense to me then 
<knome> we should be tracked at status.ubuntu.com sooner than later
<elfy> so I could in effect change Look at UTAH testing with balloons: TODO from you to me 
<knome> well, i already changed that item
<knome> refreshed
<knome> i was thinking to do that @ UDS, but that didn't work out
<elfy> yea - see the changes 
<knome> there seems to be a lot of partly overlapping work items
<knome> change as you see fit, and feel free to do that along the way too
<elfy> ok 
<knome> it's a way to track progress, but it's also a very useful tool for assignees
<knome> to keep track what they need to do
<elfy> yea - done properly all will know what everyone is up to 
<elfy> I can see the usefulness in that :)
<knome> yeah, and it's easier to track what's actually left to do
<elfy> :)
<smartboyhw> I like status.ubuntu.com 
<smartboyhw> It shows you the progress:D
<knome> it's only directional though, not all work items are "worth" the same
 * smartboyhw realizes that the Xubuntu and Studio blueprint are not at the page
<elfy> anyone know if there is an easy way to filter 'our' new bugs with LP 
<elfy> or am I hoping for a good summer 
 * elfy hates searching Launchpad 
<knome> elfy, you probably should ask mr_pouit/micahg for lp-fu tips
<elfy> ok - I will then :)
<knome> they'll hate me for telling you to do so, but oh well
<knome> ;)
<elfy> ha ha ha 
<elfy> on a completely unrelated note - do you know what the html code is for xubuntu blue? 
<knome> i do
<knome> http://xubuntu.org/marketingresources/
<knome> #04a
<knome> or, #0044aa
<knome> you know, sleeving cards kind of sucks
<knome> but unsleeving - oh man, this is unbearable
<elfy> excellent - there's only one person on the forum with user title in xubuntu blue :) http://ubuntuforums.org/member.php?u=610428
<knome> hehe
<smartboyhw> elfy, LOL
<elfy> smartboyhw: no you can't before you ask - admin privilege :D
<smartboyhw> elfy, grrr.
<elfy> knome: right - thanks for that - I am a bit clearer in my head now 
<knome> no problem
<knome> just ask if you have more questions
<elfy> knome: only other thing is to let you know that I am week on week off at work - so 2 weeks in 4 I am about - but less so 
<elfy> but it's a funny week - starts on a Thursday 
<knome> yeah, np :)
<elfy> I realise everyone else works as well - but last cycle I was about more or less constantly, just thought I should give you heads up on that
<knome> yeah, not a problem at all. if there's longer periods when you can't do anything, just tell people (as soon as you know), and we'll get stuff done
<smartboyhw> elfy, I forgotten: In last cycle when did you appointed QA contact ?
<elfy> knome: yep
<elfy> at the end smartboyhw 
<smartboyhw> elfy, yeah so last cycle more or less constantly isn't a big problem compared to this one then I think
<elfy> ?
<smartboyhw> elfy, you said last cycle you weren't about that much right? 
<elfy> no - completely the opposite :)
<smartboyhw> elfy, then please decode "last cycle I was about more or less constantly".......
<elfy> cheers knome - bacon sarnie time for me now I think - and more tea :)
<knome> hehe, again, np. and bon appetit :)
<elfy> more or less - means mostly all the time smartboyhw :)
<elfy> this cycle will be less constantly than last 
<smartboyhw> elfy, oh OK since you have work now:D
<elfy> yea :)
<knome> probably the same for me, at least at the end of the cycle..
<smartboyhw> knome, the end of it? Meaning like, March 2013?
<knome> next year
<smartboyhw> Gee that is bad then
<knome> i'll take care i'll be around when needed
<knome> but generally people should take more responsibility of their assigned items
<knome> i'm not needed to micro-manage everything
<elfy> +1 
<smartboyhw> Yeah volunteer projects are like that...You may be more busy when you thought you weren't
<smartboyhw> knome, +10000000000000000
<ochosi> mr_pouit, micahg: there have been various bugreports (and i've been able to confirm that myself) with e.g. app-icons not rescaling in gtk-menus. there are issues with e.g. picasa, jabref, scilab, tgif etc. i'm wondering whether this could be a general gtk2 issue, as i don't see anything xfce-specific in this problem. thoughts? (it looks like this btw: http://www.zimagez.com/zimage/screenshot-11152012-023047am.php )
<ochosi> not sure there are real bugreports on lp about that yet tbh, but at least i've read about it in #xubuntu
<astraljava> knome: You may not be _needed_, but IT'S ALWAYS GOOD TO KNOW SOMEONE CARES!!!!11one
<knome> we should really take the social stuff to -offtopic
<knome> just saying... :)
<mr_pouit> ochosi: Bug #1066591 already reported (but it only occurs with xpm icons)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1066591 in xfce4-panel (Ubuntu) "regression: desktop icons no longer scaled down" [Low,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1066591
<ochosi> hm, ok, well good to know
<ochosi> it's really weird that people still ship xpm icons
<ochosi> i mean i can see why it's useful in xfwm4
<ochosi> but for app-icons...
<mr_pouit> anyway, that's very low on my "mmh, I'm bored let's look into this" list
<GridCube> this bug has been reported many times this week
<GridCube> at least twice in my watch
<ochosi> mr_pouit: yeah, actually andrzej also pointed me to it. but yeah, imo app-maintainers should simply ship icons in a less deprecated format...
<mr_pouit> yeah, I've no idea who's at fault here, gdk-pixbuf maybe
<pleia2> we need to finish our FAQ :\
<knome> yeah
<knome> i just hit my toenail and it's about to come out sooner or later
<knome> :/
<pleia2> ew
<knome> yes, IT HURT.
<knome> anyway, yeah
<pleia2> Q: Why does knome's toe hurt? A: Click here for pictures
<knome> no replies in the mailing list :<
<knome> eww! :D
<pleia2> hehe
<pleia2> we can include the release notes errata
<knome> :)
<GridCube> :( i'm sorry 
<knome> GridCube, it's not your fault people aren't helping
<GridCube> we can add a question about the xpm icons issue though
<GridCube> and if xfce supports gtk3, thats a fairly usual question, i mean, as questions go
<knome> anything works for me
<Unit193> Where is the Xubuntu rum stored?
<knome> rum?
<Unit193> For the FAQs, I'm sure that's a good question.  Alacarte should be fixed, thunar should be too, xfdesktop...
<knome> :P
<Unit193> (At least, so says -proposed)
#xubuntu-devel 2012-11-16
<knome> one question for the FAQ should probably be about voyager/mint xfce support.
<holstein> maybe... wouldnt hurt
<knome> it wouldn't, many people have been coming in from voyager laterly
<knome> -r
<holstein> that was the first i saw
 * holstein looks at distrowathc
<holstein> maybe thats featuring it
<knome> well, it is generally what the guy said: xubuntu with a different set of apps and looks, but there's something else there too 
<holstein> yup... could be pinned apps or who knows
<holstein> you cant support it
<knome> looking at the site, they at least seem to have commands like "update" and "upgrade" for sudo-apt get update/upgrade respectively
<knome> could be just symlinks, but still
<knome> as somebody said, linux mint could be a flavor as well, essentially
<knome> but they decided that they wanted a different release schedule/strategy
<holstein> they have their own repos too
<knome> they're not pushing in as many security updates as ubuntu
<micahg> no, it's a derivative (they don't work within the structure of the project)
<knome> micahg, yes, that was where i was coming to :)
<knome> micahg, and hey o/
<knome> i'd be less exclusive with voyager if the developers actually communicated with us
<ochosi> knome: there's >1 voyager dev? :)
<knome> royal they? :P
<ochosi> heh
<ochosi> tbh i'm not sure that "they"'re doing anything we can really really benefit from
<ochosi> at least from what i've seen
<knome> no
<knome> that's not what i meant
<ochosi> that was directed towards the "no communication with"
<knome> but if they communicated what their changes are, maybe we could be a bit less negative about it
<ochosi> btw, after using the png'd elementary-xfce icon-theme for a while, i don't see major trouble ahead with it
<ochosi> the list of missing sizes/icons seems okayish
<ochosi> i mean quite manageable
<knome> ok
<ochosi> mainly saying that because pleia2 was troubled by that last time
<ochosi> so the main issue remains the space in the image
#xubuntu-devel 2012-11-17
<mr_pouit> knome: (afaik there's only one voyager dev, but maybe he's helped for some things like the conky themes)
<knome> mr_pouit, like the conky themes we're not still shipping?
<knome> mr_pouit, yeah, i think there's only one too
<mr_pouit> knome: the voyager dev doesn't do any development (in the strict sense), he chooses to enable many ppas by default (e.g. in voyager 12.10, he put thunar 1.5.0 by default because of the dup partition issue)
<knome> mr_pouit, yeah, that makes it pretty much unsupportable
<mr_pouit> (he's French speaking anyway, and I regularly check the voyager topic on the French forum)
<knome> i know :)
<adnan> conky themes you say
#xubuntu-devel 2013-11-11
<brainwash> ochosi: eleggua?
<ochosi> brainwash: what up?
<slickymaster> good morning all
<knome> morning slickymaster 
<slickymaster> hi, knome. good morning. Hope everything is fine with you
<knome> yep
<slickymaster> knome: :)
<knome> slickymaster, and you?
<slickymaster> knome: alright, also
<knome> good to hear
<slickymaster> knome: like you, looking for an apartment
<knome> aha :) (we should continue this on -offtopic)
<slickymaster> knome: :) yes, you're right. It's a topic for this channel
<slickymaster> it's not ^^
<knome> heh
<ochosi> morning slickymaster 
<slickymaster> knome: almost finishing xubuntu-docs translation (91% is alreqady done) but I want to proofread it when done. What's the best way to do it
<slickymaster> hi ochosi, good morning
<slickymaster> ochosi: I saw you already upload to docs.xfce.org the video section. Thanks for that
<knome> slickymaster, nice :)
<ochosi> slickymaster: no problem, i'm currently reviewing the dvd-section jjfrv8 did
<slickymaster> knome: I was thinking of building it locally, that's possible, right?
<slickymaster> ochosi: and parole is about done, or am I wrong?
<ochosi> yeah, i think so :)
<ochosi> slickymaster: do you happen to be a native speaker?
<slickymaster> ochosi: I'm a portuguese native speaker, who happens to be some what fluent in english
<ochosi> shouldn't this read "chapters'" here? "...those chapters numbers will appear in..."
<ochosi> right, then we're pretty much on the same level :)
<slickymaster> ochosi: what are you refering to?
<ochosi> that's a snippet from the dvd section
<slickymaster> ochosi: give a minute, I'll take a look
<ochosi> and imo the chapters is missing the possessive '
<slickymaster> give me ^^
<ochosi> sure
<ochosi> (it's in the bottom of the dvd section)
<slickymaster> ochosi: yeah I think your right. It should be the possessive form. IMO it should be "..., those chapters' numbers..."
<ochosi> good, i'll change that then
<ochosi> nice, copied over
<slickymaster> knome: also, exploiting the fact that I have you here and even knowing that it is not a priority and you have too much to deal with, whenever you'll be able to spare a few minutes, https://code.launchpad.net/~slickymaster/xubuntu-docs/xubuntu-docs/+merge/192413 related to  https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/xubuntu-docs/+bug/1238718
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 1238718 in xubuntu-docs (Ubuntu) "Errors in "Chapter 6. Connecting to Internet and Networks" of the Xubuntu Documentation saucy series" [Undecided,Fix committed]
<slickymaster> ochosi: don't forget if you need some further help, I'm here
<ochosi> slickymaster: thanks a lot!! i've just copied over the last piece by jjfrv8 (the right-click menu) and will go through all the docs together with bluesabre one evening (hopefully this week) to see whether there's anything missing, but i things are looking splendid!
<slickymaster> ochosi: glad to hear that
<knome> slickymaster, merged
<slickymaster> knome: thanks. regardind the build of xubuntu-docs trusty series, I can build the locally to proofread them, right?
<knome> slickymaster, that's a good question.
<knome> i mean, sure, you can build the english one...
<knome> i'm not sure if there is infrastructure to even build the translated versions yet
<slickymaster> knome: to which, I'm sure you'll be able to answer ;)
<slickymaster> knome: don't waste your time with it. I'll try it
<knome> heh, sure
<knome> we'll need to find out how that's possible at some point because we will need that for enabling the translations in the release
<slickymaster> knome: well, I?, hoping to finish the translation by the end of the week, so I'll try to build them to be able to proofread it. I'll report you what I'll be doing to achieve it
<knome> sure. good luck!
<slickymaster> knome: :) it's like they say, where there's a will, there's a way
<slickymaster> knome: I'm ISO testing Xubuntu today's build and at the beginning of the slideshow it reads "Congratulations... you're installing Xubuntu 13.10...". Do you think it's worth to fil a bug against https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ubiquity-slideshow-ubuntu ?
<knome> it won't hurt. we will have to look at the slideshow anyway, but if you file a bug i'm sure it won't go unnoticed
<slickymaster> knome: ok, thanks
<knome> bbl
<slickymaster> elfy: FIY https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ubiquity-slideshow-ubuntu/+bug/1250052
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 1250052 in ubiquity-slideshow-ubuntu (Ubuntu) "Xubuntu ISO welcome slide still refers to Xubuntu 13.10" [Undecided,New]
<ali1234> how come if i xfdesktop --quit, i can't set the root window colour using xsetroot?
<ali1234> xwininfo says the big grey empty space is the root window
<ali1234> apps which can render into an existing window also don't work, eg xterm and xscreensaver hacks
<brainwash> hsetroot works
<ali1234> if i run xfdesktop and tell the hack to render into it's window it works
<ali1234> it's probably nvidia weirdness
<slickymaster> knome: Translations for this Xubuntu trusty series are not available yet. Do you have any idea of when they'll be available?
<ochosi> ali1234: you could get in touch with eric, he's still quite actively working on xfdesktop
<ochosi> (possibly email is the best way to reach him)
<ali1234> it's nothing to do with xfdesktop really...
<ali1234> you can't hold it responsible for what happens when it isn't running
<ochosi> does it make a difference whether the compositor of xfwm4 is switched on?
<ochosi> or are you not using that anyways?
<ali1234> haven't checked. it's not really that important :)
<elfy> slickymaster: I'm surprised that the slideshow still says 13.10 :)
<elfy> I'll mark it wishlist for 4 months :D
<elfy> s/not surprised 
<knome> slickymaster, i'll have to see about that later. i need to set them up, i suppose
<slickymaster> ok elfy, thanks
<knome> Unit193, at this time, it would be nice to know if the trusty images work "at all"
<knome> or if there is still (ubuntu) core things that are broken or half-broken
<knome> so i suppose some ISO testing would be a good start
<Unit193> Erm, I'm talking about mini.iso+xubuntu-core.
<knome> ah.
<knome> so -core testing...
<knome> i think we still should try to settle what we want from it first :/
<Unit193> Sure, I've no idea what you guys are thinking, but for me it's mini+install.
<knome> well yes, i think that's the right way to proceed
<Unit193> Problem I see, people won't do a commandline install with --no-install-recommends.
<knome> don't know.
<Unit193> But yes, testing?
<knome> can you put up some kind of ISO for that?
<knome> or would you like others to have a poke at that?
<Unit193> Sure, but an ISO would be just to see generally what it would have, right?
<knome> theoretically we don't need an ISO for that
<knome> as i said, we should agree on a general direction what that should have
<knome> after we have that, it's much saner to see what that feels like :)
<Unit193> http://archive.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/dists/trusty/main/installer-i386/current/images/netboot/mini.iso then apt-get install --no-install-recommends xubuntu-core
<knome> but if you want to build an ISO with what the draft is now for people to test it... that would work as well.
<knome> Unit193, does "xubuntu-core" exist?
<Unit193> Yes, but not in the main repos yet.
<Unit193> (It's how I've tested it.)
<knome> aha, so one would need to enable something
<Unit193> For testing, yes.
<knome> okay
<knome> now tell me
<knome> what was the problem with not doing --no-install-recommends again
<Unit193> Pulls in (at least half of) Unity, Gnome, and who knows what else.
<knome> why? :)
<Unit193> Now, this may be a problem with how I'm creating it, but I generally just edited the xubuntu-desktop one.
<knome> or, to put it other way, why doesn't xubuntu-desktop do that?
<Unit193> As far as I know, that one doesn't do it because it defines other packages that fill the role requested.
<Unit193> I'd like to know for sure too, but that'd need someone other than me to look at.
<knome> would you like me to hook you up with somebody who could know, or would you do that yourself?
<Unit193> I'm thinking for now I'll look through more docs or check application deps.
<knome> okay, that works as well
<knome> will you be able to make the meeting this thursday?
<knome> or any meeting at 16UTC?
<Unit193> (It's what I've been doing.)  Nope.
<Unit193> Nope.
<knome> ok, what would work for you on thursday?
<Unit193> 20:00UTC looks best, but I don't really need to be there.
<Unit193> Nothing has changed since last time, basically.
<knome> i'll schedule myself for that so we can look deeper into it
<knome> i'll ask the team in the meeting if they have questions, or if they have anything else they'd like you to know
<knome> and i'll try to think about the whole thing better before that
<Unit193> I'm trying to installs in vbox now to see what happens, one tasksel lubuntu-core, and one apt-get install xubuntu-desktop
<knome> okay
<knome> is there something you like me to take care of before we meet the next time?
<knome> i can run a test or so, if you'd think that'd help
<Unit193> My only thought is for someone else to take a look at what's there and installed, and see what else we can get rid of, or what else we need to add.
<knome> okay, so would i simply download the mini.iso and install xubuntu-core from a place you'll specify, or do you need something else+
<knome> ?
<Unit193> Generally, yep.
<knome> and can you email me whatever you need me to do so i'll have it safe somewhere (eg. not in a piece of paper somewhere around all this stuff that's going out :P)
<Unit193> I made a script that does it, if that counts. :P
<knome> whatever that works... works
<Unit193> My other thought was have brainwash look at it, he seems to know everything. :P
<knome> heh, worksforme
<brainwash> I don't really care about xubuntu-core, is there even a demand for it?
<Unit193> Anywho, email sent.
<Unit193> queuebot just noticed about the xfce4-terminal package in unapproved/proposed.
<ali1234> is that mine?
<ali1234> yes
<Unit193> Yep.
<brainwash> after all these years
<ali1234> has it really been broken for years??
<brainwash> "years"
<ali1234> heh. it wasn't broken in 13.04 anyway :P
<brainwash> since the move to gtk 3.8 I guess
<ali1234> yeah. they must have moved around some items in a struct
<ali1234> so i'm implementing zooming in xfwm4 now...
<ochosi> ali1234: i'm really excited to see the patch somewhere :)
<ali1234> just doing the mouse poller
<ali1234> then i'll post it
<ochosi> sweet
<ali1234> hmm... wrong type structs
<ali1234> cool... it works
<ochosi> woot
<ochosi> congrats
<ali1234> total of 100 lines added
<ochosi> wowza
<ochosi> and a library with 1000 lines? :D
<ali1234> ezoom is 2000 lines long
<ali1234> i think some developers get paid by lines of code
<ochosi> that likely produces many comments in the code or really bad code :)
<ali1234> http://paste.ubuntu.com/6402215/ <- apply on xfwm4 git master
<ali1234> ./autogen.sh --enable-compositor && make && src/xfwm4 --replace
<ali1234> zooming is now done on alt+scrollwheel
<ochosi> that's really a short patch
<ali1234> of course :)
<ochosi> nice, it also applies on top of my tabwin branch :)
<ali1234> i can't remember which way around zoom in/out was - i think i've got it backwards
<ali1234> but when i swap them over it still feels wrong
<ochosi> hm, says "missing defaults file"
<ochosi> ah
<ochosi> ok, missing a config option
<ali1234> hmm... yeah it's definitely backwards
<ochosi> moving the scrollwheel forward used to szoom in i think
<ali1234> yeah
<ochosi> wowza
<ochosi> works like a charm
<ochosi> gotta say i'm impressed
<ali1234> thanks :)
<ali1234> there's still improvements to be made
<ochosi> even feels very smooth and responsive
<ali1234> there are different filter types which will make it look less pixelly
<ochosi> fwiw, i'm testing in a multi-head setup
<ali1234> cool
<ochosi> and evrything works as expected
<ochosi> which is really awesome
<ali1234> i remember ezoom had a bug for ages with multihead
<ali1234> cos i backported the fix to 0.8 :)
<ochosi> the pixelated aspect is fun when you're looking for weird pixels (e.g. in icons)
<ali1234> true
<ochosi> :)
<ali1234> but at low zooms it does look quite bad
<ochosi> but most of the time, i'd take screenshots and use gimp to zoom
<ochosi> true that
<ochosi> just for the fun of it: http://www.zimagez.com/zimage/istantanea-11112013-112939pm.php
<ali1234> hmm... screenshot looks kinda messed up
<ali1234> bottom right?
<ali1234> also, if you open a menu, alt gets stolen and you can't zoom out until you close it
<ali1234> that might be fixed by using super instead
<ali1234> i used alt, cos there was some commented out code which already did exactly what i needed basically
<ochosi> that part of the screen isn't visible (out of scope of my laptop-screen, which is on the right)
<ochosi> so i'm not terribly surprised it's a little messed up
<ali1234> oh, that's two monitors?
<ochosi> yup :)
<ali1234> it doesn't zoom them independently?
<ochosi> nope, together, like one huge canvas
<ochosi> which is kinda what i'd expect
<ali1234> if you have one-big-screen i would expect it to work - that's cheating :)
<ali1234> the real test is whether it works with twinview
<ochosi> 1280x1024 + 1280x800
<ochosi> twinview is mirror-mode?
<ali1234> twinview is nvidia proprietary mode
<ochosi> (yeah, i'm using extended desktop)
<ochosi> ah right
<ochosi> i did away with that
<ali1234> it does xinerama with multiple screens
<ochosi> and can only recommend using the display dialog of xfce
<ochosi> xinerama was what again? :D
<ali1234> the only way to make nearly everything maximize to only one monitor
<ochosi> my windows maximize only to the current monitor...
 * ochosi scratches head
<ali1234> that's fake fullscreen then :P
<ali1234> not everything can do that, though it is preferred
<ali1234> i think the most surprising thing is i didn't even crash X once :)
<ochosi> i dunno, even youtube works with that nowadays
<ochosi> and i dunno, we didn't implement any fancy magic in parole for that and it works there too
<ochosi> (i think ubuntu added some youtube-patches)
<ali1234> ah flash... flash has so many problems
<ali1234> http://al.robotfuzz.com/workaround-for-flash-on-linux-multihead-desktops/
<ali1234> my most popular piece of code ever
<brainwash> oh, so that's you and not some random guy with the same nick :D
<brainwash> ali1234/fullscreenhack
<ali1234> yup
<ochosi> did you fix end up in ubuntu? :)
<ali1234> no
<ali1234> it's totally crazy
<ali1234> it dynamic patches xlib, not flash
<ali1234> when flash asks the wrong question, the patched functions give it the wrong answer
<ali1234> turns out sometimes two wrongs do make a right
<brainwash> couldn't one also edit the flash library directly (hex editor)?
<brainwash> I recall reading about this
<ochosi> hm
<ali1234> there are some patches like that for windows
<ali1234> but they break on every new release
<Unit193> knome: Yeah, -desktop doesn't work as is either. :)
<ochosi> ali1234: to me it's so surprising how smooth the zooming goes
<ochosi> i guess an option to configure the modifier or the zoomwheel direction could be nice
<ochosi> other than that it really seems quite perfect already
<ochosi> even menus seem usable
<ali1234> there's no reason for it to be slow - it renders everything into a texture already
<ali1234> all this does is change the transformation when that buffer is rendered to the screen
<ali1234> no extra calls are done except for the mouse polling stuff
<ali1234> and the forced update
<ochosi> yeah
<ali1234> i guess technically that is unneccesary
<ochosi> that doesn't seem to add too much overhead
<ali1234> since we only want to rerender the buffer onto the display, not redraw all windows
<ali1234> if i implement locking like compiz, that will be tricky
<ali1234> since t's really just a fluke that the pointer is in the right place
<ochosi> you could implement something like keyboard navigation
<ochosi> i mean keyboard-only
<ochosi> that way getting the window to the right place should be easier
#xubuntu-devel 2013-11-12
<ali1234> ochosi: new version with filtering when zoom is less than 4x, and some other improvements: http://paste.ubuntu.com/6402669/
<ochosi> ali1234: wow!
<ochosi> very smooth
<ochosi> (and thanks for inverting the scroll-direction - feels *so* much better ;))
<ochosi> being zoomed in does seem to eat up my cpu though (at least that's what top says)
<ali1234> yes it will
<ochosi> is that due to the smoothing?
<ochosi> (didn't check that before)
<ali1234> no, it's due to it has to poll mouse position
<ochosi> ah
<ochosi> hm
<ochosi> i guess there's not really a way around this
<ali1234> currently it is hardcoded to check it 60 times per second
<ali1234> probably a bit much
<ali1234> it's the g_timeout_add(32 ... line
<ali1234> 32 msec
<ali1234> i could make it check if the mouse coords are the same as last time and if so ignore them
<ochosi> to be frank, even with 10 it seems extremely smooth
<ochosi> heh, although i'm seeing now that that doesn't seem to help with the cpu
<andrzejr> ali1234, I tried your patch - got a black screen with only a cursor on it. NVidia drivers.
<ochosi> so yeah, maybe that check would help
<ochosi> andrzejr: i'm also using nvidia proprietary btw
<ali1234> i'm on nvidia too
<ochosi> oh, fun :p
<ali1234> andrzejr: is that only when zooming, or all the time?
<andrzejr> just after xfwm4 --replace
<ochosi> (fwiw, i'm not using git-master, but the ochosi/tabwin branch)
<andrzejr> couldn't debug anything because linux console doesn't work with proprietary drivers
<ali1234> er.... mine does?
<ochosi> andrzejr: you mean VT? works fine here...
<andrzejr> so maybe its a graphics card, or several ubuntu updates (I do get some other problems too)
<ali1234> try commenting lines 3009, 3011, 3013
<ali1234> if you comment them all, the whole thing should become a no-op
<andrzejr> When I switch to a console the screen becomes grayish and gets progressively brighter/lighter.
<ochosi> so xfwm4 works without the patch?
<ali1234> did you build with --enable-compositor?
<andrzejr> xfwm4 from git master works fine
<ali1234> i haven't tested what happens if you don't do that, probably should
<ochosi> ali1234: i put the value down to "3" now, still is smooth and cpu is still burning up...
<andrzejr> no, I didn't (autoconf did enable it though so I assumed it is OK)
<ochosi> ali1234: are you sure it's that which causes it?
<ali1234> ochosi: you should increase it, not decrease it :P
<ochosi> yeah, i also skipped the --enable-compositor, it should be enabled by default
<ochosi> ooophs
<ochosi> :)
<ali1234> hang on though, new patch
<ali1234> http://paste.ubuntu.com/6402727/
<ochosi> building...
<ochosi> ali1234: a bit less cpu usage, still 100% (as in: 1 of 2 cores) though
<ali1234> my check doesn't work
<ochosi> hm, seemingly
<ali1234> maybe you can't use a static variable in a callback
<ali1234> or maybe it's just a silly mistake
<ali1234> the latter
<ali1234> y_old != x_root -> should be y_root
<ochosi> well it's that time of the day here already (silly-mistakes-o'clock)
<ali1234> much better :)
<ochosi> went down to 75% here
<ali1234> for me it went down to a negligible amount when not moving the mouse
<ochosi> yeah, this time it was my time for a silly mistake
 * ochosi facepalms
<ochosi> no more cpu-eating
<ochosi> very nice
<ali1234> in theory it should now have true zero overhead if there's no change in the zoom state
<ochosi> yeah, that's also what top says
<ochosi> (i decided to zoom in on a top-window)
<ali1234> well, except the QueryPointer call but that's not much
<ochosi> nice work ali1234 !
<andrzejr> same problem with the new patch
<ali1234> andrzejr: i didn't really think the new patch would help you, sorry
<ali1234> try commenting lines 3009, 3011, 3013
<ochosi> ali1234: zooming in on parole has funny effects :)
<ali1234> hmm... it does
<ali1234> the overlay window doesn't increase in size, so only part of the video shows
<ali1234> that's due to the lazy updates
<ali1234> or rather, forcing a full redraw fixes it
<ali1234> not sure how to deal with that but there must be a way
<ali1234> xterms do the same thing :S
<ali1234> and youtube
<ali1234> hmm... i think i know how to fix it. but i'm going to bed now... night
<ochosi> ali1234: night!
 * ochosi goes too
<ali1234> morning
<ali1234> i found a bug in xfwm which fixing it should have fixed the clipping area issues
<ali1234> but it didn't :(
<slickymaster> good morning all
<ochosi> ali1234: what clipping area issues?
<ochosi> and morning everyone
<ali1234> well... you know blitting?
<ali1234> dirty rectangles and so on?
<ali1234> the compositor redraws only the damaged areas in the offscreen buffer
<ali1234> then it copies only the damaged areas from the buffer to the display
<ali1234> but the XserverRegions aren't affected by the PictureTransform, so the second copy copies the wrong areas
<ochosi> oh
<ali1234> there's two problems: first is it applies the region to the display instead of the buffer, which is a bug imo
<ali1234> and the second is that it can't apply it to the buffer either on the second draw step, if we are zoomed in
<ali1234> so... it's fixed, kind of
<ochosi> not sure i was able to follow this all now
<ali1234> heh
<ali1234> basically XRender is a very 2D type system and it uses all the old style "redraw only the parts that changed" methods from framebuffer days
<ali1234> but the damage system and XRender don't really talk to each other
<ali1234> after fixing what i consider to be a bug, it might actually run faster anyway now
<ochosi> is this specifically a zoom-problem or does it affect xfwm4 in general?
<ochosi> (fwiw i'm startin to think you should become xfwm4's maintainer, no-one has really taken care of it for ages...)
<ali1234> i'm not 100% sure
<ali1234> depends exactly how Xrender treats the clip regions
<ali1234> which annoyingly is probably implementation specific
<ali1234> i am beginning to see why wayland
<ali1234> i think it's a bug, could be intentional though i think
<ali1234> anyway the bottom line is that we have to turn off all clipping when doing the buffer->display copy, but only if zoomed in
<ali1234> because the clipping rects don't follow the Xrender transform, thus the wrong areas are clipped
<ali1234> i'm going to push this on github because i can write comments on the source there :)
<ochosi> cool
<ali1234> https://github.com/ali1234/xfwm4/commits/zoom
<ochosi> you should also post that on the xfce-dev-ml
<ochosi> or at least the irc channel
<ochosi> if it gets merged, it's probably one of the most exciting features for 4.12
<ochosi> ali1234: fwiw, if you wanna help me finish the ochosi/tabwin branch lemme know ;)
<ali1234> what does it do?
<ochosi> it improves the style of the tabwin (alt-tab dialog)
<ochosi> makes it themeable
<ochosi> and in the end it should enable using the mouse to select a window
<ochosi> nick pushed a commit for that, but it wasn't finished yet
<ochosi> so it's not 100% working
<ochosi> (i think the first click somehow doesn
<ochosi> 't reach the widget or something)
<ochosi> ali1234: this is the page where i listed some stuff i wanted to do: http://wiki.xfce.org/design/xfwm4/tabwin
<ochosi> (only the screenshot is really implemented, although i think nick added a text-only listmode once too)
<ali1234> i don't use alt-tab at all
<ali1234> is there some specific bug or problem?
<ochosi> problem 1) is that it uses weird widgets
<ochosi> problem 2) (following from 1) is that the theming of it is therefore not very nice
<ochosi> so no, it's an enhancement, not bugfix
<ochosi> pleia2: ping
<pleia2> ochosi: pong
<knome> pleia2, have fun trying to pop in the same time :)
<knome> pleia2, he wants to ask you about licenses for wallpapers
<knome> (at least)
<pleia2> ah
<ochosi> hey pleia2 
<ochosi> yeah, what knome said :)
<pleia2> cc-by is nice
<ochosi> i started drafting an email to the ML for wallpaper submissions for xubuntu
<ochosi> so far i had put down cc-by and cc-by-sa
<pleia2> or cc-by-sa
<ochosi> but one license would/could make things easier
<ochosi> not sure
<ochosi> what do you think/suggest?
<pleia2> consistancy would be nice
<ochosi> (we could end up with a package with multiple licenses, not sure how problematic that really is though)
<ochosi> yeah, i agree
<pleia2> let's see what ubuntu dose
<pleia2> does
<ochosi> good idea
<pleia2> they use cc-by-sa
<pleia2> works for me :)
<pleia2> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Documentation/Backgrounds#Constraints
<ochosi> pleia2: great, let's stick to that then
<ochosi> i'll check more of those requirements and integrate them in my call for wallpapers
<ochosi> would you wanna read it before i send it out?
<pleia2> ochosi: sure, if you'd like
<ochosi> knome: check the page pleia2 just pasted, i think some of those guidelines we should also include (see background guidelines)
<knome> ochosi, yup, agree
<ochosi> acutally most of this document makes a lot of sense
<ochosi> thanks for digging that up pleia2 !
<pleia2> they've refined it over many cycles
<ochosi> yeah, they've done a few of these contests
<ochosi> and basically we're planning the same
<pleia2> cool
<ochosi> open submissions but a vote of the artwork-team on the "winners"
<ochosi> kinda an editor's pick
 * pleia2 nods
<pleia2> I am going to try to sleep again
<ochosi> knome: think i might end up copying over the complete page from the ubuntu wiki, they really thought it through...
<knome> hm?
<slickymaster> elfy, ping
<elfy> slickymaster: pong if it's quick, if not then it'll need to wait - just got in
<slickymaster> elfy: if you prefer I can ping you later on, after dinner
<elfy> nope - it's ok I expect - ask and if I'm not I'll say :)
<slickymaster> elfy, I think a correction needs to be made at http://packages.qa.ubuntu.com/qatracker/milestones/306/builds/55995/testcases/1585/results
<slickymaster> elfy: one of the steps to be reproduced during the test is "...In dialogue type gksudo mousepad, press Launch"
<slickymaster> elfy: gksudo and gksu, aren't presently packed with Xubuntu 
<elfy> slickymaster: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual-tests/+filebug
<slickymaster> elfy: either we remove/re-write that step or we have to add a note informing on the of sudo apt-get install gksu
<elfy> do it there - probably make it a 'general' thing rather than specific
<elfy> slickymaster: from what I can tell they're wanting people to use sudo 
<slickymaster> elfy: that's what I meant to ask you. I can fil a bug and re-write the entire testcas
<slickymaster> testcase^^
<elfy> slickymaster: make it general rather than for one testcase - when we know exactly what we're supposed to use then we can check them all for the same issue
<elfy> I'll try and get a real answer later
<slickymaster> elfy: I'll just fil the bug for the moment and wait until you have something more specific on the issue
<elfy> ok 
<elfy> slickymaster: I will probably work through and do the whole lot myself 
<slickymaster> elfy: well, if you feel like you need any help, just ping me
<elfy> slickymaster: can you subscribe or assign me to it 
<elfy> slickymaster: yep - I will :)
<slickymaster> elfy: I will
<elfy> cheers
<slickymaster> elfy: thanks
<elfy> :)
<slickymaster> elfy: here it is https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual-tests/+bug/1250560
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 1250560 in Ubuntu Manual Tests "Use of gksudo/gksu in testcases for Xubuntu Desktop in Trusty Daily " [Undecided,New]
<slickymaster> elfy: surprisingly I'm not able to assign it to you, LP is not recognizing your LP ID in the Assigned to box. I keep getting "No items matched "elfy"."
<elfy> not sure why that is - I just assigned it to elfy
<elfy> comes up as first choice when I search for me
 * elfy passes the question along the chain :p
<slickymaster> elfy: it's strange, really, because I'm still getting the same No items matched "elfy".
<elfy> odd - you putting it in the box then pressing enter?
<slickymaster> elfy: well, any way it's done as we intended 
<slickymaster> elfy: yes, and alternatively clicking the magnifying glass 
<elfy> odd - but it is launchpad :)
<slickymaster> elfy: I even went to https://launchpad.net/~elfy to confirm your LP ID
<slickymaster> knome: Just FYI https://translations.launchpad.net/xubuntu-docs/trusty/+pots/desktop-guide/pt/+translate is as of now completely translated into Portuguese
<elfy> slickymaster: though it seems that pkexec isn't supposed to be used like that
<slickymaster> I'll try now to figure out how to build the translated package in order to do a final proofread of it
<slickymaster> elfy: I'm under the impression that pkexec is supposed to be the intended replacement for gksudo and gksu, but I can be wrong
<brainwash> slickymaster: maybe you should also file a report on the debian bug tracker, bug 1250364
<ubottu> bug 1185396 in gnome-system-tools (Ubuntu) "duplicate for #1250364 users-admin crashed with SIGSEGV in gst_user_profiles_get_for_user()" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1185396
<elfy> slickymaster: http://askubuntu.com/questions/313828/why-is-pkexec-preferred-over-gksudo-for-graphical-applications
<elfy> slickymaster: doesn't appear so 
<slickymaster> right, brainwash. Will do it
<slickymaster> elfy: give a moment to read through that
<slickymaster> give me ^^
<brainwash> slickymaster: I tried to understand and fix this crash, but gave up due to lack of time (users-admin is quite complicated for me and I don't feel like breaking it)
<brainwash> there are other issue too, like it still checks for the "admin" group instead of "sudo" one
<slickymaster> elfy: well, now I'm confused and you are indeed right. That leaves me with the question about with the hell has gksu and gksudo been removed. Is it to just use sudo -i?
<brainwash> so gnome-system-tools really needs a maintainer or a working replacement
<elfy> slickymaster: seems so 
<slickymaster> elfy: I'll correct the bug summary to reflect that, then 
<slickymaster> brainwash: https://launchpad.net/bugs/1185396 was present in Saucy and it's still present in Trusty, and I think that it is a important issue that should be dealt with 
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 1185396 in gnome-system-tools (Ubuntu) "users-admin crashed with SIGSEGV in gst_user_profiles_get_for_user()" [High,Triaged]
<brainwash> right, it's the same old version of g-s-t
<brainwash> and there is no one to maintain it
<slickymaster> elfy: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual-tests/+bug/1250560 description corrected
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 1250560 in Ubuntu Manual Tests "Use of gksudo/gksu in testcases for Xubuntu Desktop in Trusty Daily " [Undecided,New]
<brainwash> slickymaster: maybe we could use the current gnome solution
<slickymaster> brainwash: can't really say as I never used gnome
<slickymaster> and thus I'm not aware of their solution
<brainwash> slickymaster: they did drop g-s-t
<brainwash> new tool to manage accounts looks similar http://i.imgur.com/B3gze7K.png
<slickymaster> brainwash: yeah, the GUI seems very similar
<brainwash> so maybe a switch to the new one would be possible
<slickymaster> brainwash: do you have any idea on who could answer that?
<brainwash> the xubuntu team
<slickymaster> brainwash: maybe you should address knome or ochosi on that
<brainwash> a discussion would be required (do we lose functionality? does it pull more gnome dependencies? are customization needed to get it running under Xfce?)
<brainwash> yeah
<slickymaster> brainwash: yeah, you're right, particularly on the dependencies factor
<slickymaster> well, got a pick up my son at school. bbl
<GridCube> i propose we rize the minimum amount of needed ram to 1gb
<Unit193> ^
<GridCube> even if 512 will work, any webbrowser needs about that much to work with 3 or more tabs
<elfy> I'd agree with changing it 
<knome> can you please add that to the meeting agenda and prepare the discussion in the meeting itself; and please prepare with arguments why you are proposing
<GridCube> alright
<brainwash> oh meh, they removed the groups management part from the new gnome user tool
<brainwash> looks like we need to keep the old user tool alive
<ElderDryas> Speaking of the next meeting, the meeting web page still shows 7 Nov as the next meeting ( https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Meetings )
<knome> it's a wiki though, so editably by anyone
<slickymaster> good night all
<knome> hello slickymaster 
<slickymaster> hi knome 
<brainwash> slickymaster: so the new user management tool created by the gnome dev team is part of the gnome control center and lacks the ability to manage groups
<ochosi> ali1234: i noticed that when e.g. typing in the zoomed state, the characters don't exactly fly to the screen (sometimes i have to move the mouse to make them visible), is that what you fixed in github this morning?
<slickymaster> brainwash, so no dice for Xubuntu, then
<ochosi> brainwash: i fear most of gnome3 is so tightly integrated with each other it'll be hard for us to use it without actually using gnome...
<ochosi> gnome3 = goodbye modularity
<brainwash> yeah, we will have to fix the current users-admin
<slickymaster> yeah with the extra burden that all that stuff would bring with it
<slickymaster> brainwash, which reminds me that I still have to report https://launchpad.net/bugs/1185396  on the debian bug tracker
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 1185396 in gnome-system-tools (Ubuntu) "users-admin crashed with SIGSEGV in gst_user_profiles_get_for_user()" [High,Triaged]
<brainwash> yeah
 * skellat says file a bug against -docs if we have to do write-ups on command-line user management tools in case we don't find a graphical replacement
<brainwash> "IRC: you can contact us in the #gst channel at irc.gimp.org"
<brainwash> :D
<brainwash> not everyone can create an bzr branch or?
<brainwash> a bzr
<knome> brainwash, can
<brainwash> so I just clone the repo and create a new branch which gets uploaded to launchpad?
<knome> brainwash, you can always push to lp:~youruser
<knome> brainwash, if you want to branch, say xubuntu-docs, you can push to lp:~youruser/xubuntu-docs/my-docs-branch
<brainwash> ok, thanks :)
<knome> brainwash, if you want to push something that doesn't have a (project) branch in launchpad, you can push to lp:~youruser/+junk/whatever-branch
<slickymaster> elfy, ping. https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual-tests/+bug/1250560 still isn't fixed. running sudo -i in Application Finder dialog won't launch anything
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 1250560 in Ubuntu Manual Tests "Use of gksudo/gksu in testcases for Xubuntu Desktop in Trusty Daily " [Undecided,Fix released]
<brainwash> slickymaster: expected behavior, sudo won't open a terminal window or graphical password prompt
<knome> brainwash, that wasn't why he pinged elfy...
<slickymaster> brainwash, exactly my point. that's why I'm warning elfy about that
<brainwash> and pkexec requires a policy for every single app or?
<knome> slickymaster, i pushed the changes to the tracker. can you confirm it is actually fix-released-and-in-the-tracker now?
<slickymaster> knome,  just a sec
<knome> wait...
<knome> i'm the one who's lost
<slickymaster> knome, yeah, it's rollbacked to gksudo
<knome> i did that because i thought that was wanted
<knome> why did we do sudo -i in the first place?
<slickymaster> knome, no that was the reason that lead me to raise the bug. IMO the entire test should be rewritten
<knome> aha
 * slickymaster thinks that by just adding a indication alerting the user to the need of having to install the gksudo package to further proceed with the testcase.
<slickymaster> should be enough
<knome> sounds like a semi-fishy workaround. isn't there really anything that works OOTB, and why are we dropping gksudo anyway?
<slickymaster> knome, I think it's dropped since Saucy and tbh I also don't see a reason for that
<knome> might've been a ubuntu decision based on privacy or dropping support for certain stuff
<Unit193> knome: "Because it's deprecated, we use policykit now"
<knome> that's it.
<slickymaster> knome, please refer to http://askubuntu.com/questions/313828/why-is-pkexec-preferred-over-gksudo-for-graphical-applications and http://askubuntu.com/questions/313619/resolvedcould-not-save-the-file-usr-permission-denied-13-04/313625#313625
<slickymaster> knome, my last link is wrong. Please don't pay no attention to it. What I meant was this one instead http://askubuntu.com/q/78352/33871
<knome> yep, i see
<Unit193> TL;DR: use gksudo. ;)
 * slickymaster will discuss the all thing tomorrow with elfy
<brainwash> but it was already missing in 13.04, right?
<brainwash> so the discussion seems kinda late :)
<Unit193> Ubuntu, yes, not Xubuntu.
<brainwash> ah ok
<slickymaster> Yes, Unit193 is right
<slickymaster> afk
<ali1234> ochosi: yes
<ochosi> ali1234: darn, then i gotta try and merge that i guess
<ali1234> it should be perfect now, graphically (including video players)
<ali1234> it might be slightly slower though
#xubuntu-devel 2013-11-13
<jamiet74> new to linux have 13.10 but need help
<ochosi> jamiet74: hey, best to head over to the support channel (#xubuntu)
<ochosi> ali1234: indeed! nice work
<ochosi> so would you say it's merge-ready or are there any open issues atm?
<ali1234> there are some issues still
<ali1234> sometimes the scroll events fall through to applications (sometimes they don't)
<ali1234> i'm not yet sure if that thing i think is a bug, is really a bug
<ali1234> it's either something really clever i don't understand, or a really stupid bug
<ali1234> the hardcoded framerate thing too
<ochosi> but those things are in xfwm4 now anyways, no?
<ochosi> (not the scroll issue)
<ali1234> not exactly
<ali1234> i mean i had to "fix" the "bug" to make this work, yeah?
<ali1234> but if it's not a bug, then my fix is not a fix
<ochosi> oh
<ochosi> i see
<ochosi> btw, how could i reproduce the scroll-problems?
<ali1234> also, it could do with a config screen in "window manager tweaks" - no idea how to do that though
<ali1234> scroll problems?
<ochosi> "sometimes the scroll events fall through"
<ali1234> oh, open say, gedit and then open a long source file, and then zoom in with the pointer over the source
<ochosi> could that be a gtk3 thing?
<ochosi> i don't see that behavior in mousepad (while i can reproduce it in gedit)
<ali1234> could be, yeah
<ali1234> i don't see it with pidgin, not sure what that uses
<ochosi> i think gtk2, but i could be wrong
<ali1234> nor xfce4-terminal
<ochosi> (as i don't use pidgin)
<ali1234> nor xterm... it needs fixing anyway though
<ochosi> i also don't see it with skype
<ali1234> firefox is okay too
<ochosi> sounds like the list of problematic apps is shorter than the one where it works
<ali1234> yeah. i haven't really tried to debug it yet
<ochosi> ali1234: evince (gtk3) also has the scrolling issue
<elfy> knome: http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2013/04/23/%23ubuntu-devel.html#t18:27 - sudo -i was the end of that conversation @19:30
<elfy> and it works fine here - gksudo is not installed by default anymore - so shouldn't be on the testcase
<knome> elfy, sudo -i doesn't work for me.
<slickymaster> good morning all
<slickymaster> elfy, ping
<knome> morning slickymaster 
<slickymaster> good morning knome
<slickymaster> elfy, as soon as you can have a few minutes to spare, please see http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2013/11/12/%23xubuntu-devel.html
<slickymaster> elfy: sorry, the correct link is http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2013/11/12/%23xubuntu-devel.html#t22:29 not the previous one
<ochosi> pleia2, knome: i finalized the wiki pages now for the 14.04 wallpapers submissions (added an example submission of mine), if you wanna review: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Roadmap/Specifications/Trusty/CommunityWallpapers and https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Roadmap/Specifications/Trusty/CommunityWallpapers/Submissions
<knome> ochosi, haha, look at it yourself!
<ochosi> ?
<knome> load the page in your browser
<ochosi> ah nice
<ochosi> that was really fast :)
<ochosi> i'd suggest to crop the resolution though
<knome> yeah, i catched the message
<ochosi> it's just a few px
<knome> well, it's bigger than we need, just proves it's big enough
<knome> imo
<ochosi> right, that's fine too
<ochosi> ok, so i'll rewrite the email to reflect the changes on the guidelines and then send it to the MLs
<knome> sounds good
<ochosi> oh, btw, are you fine with ppl giving feedback on the -dev-ml?
<ochosi> or would you prefer the users-ml
<ochosi> "Specific comments and words of encouragement may be posted to the Xubuntu development mailing list."
<knome> ummph
<knome> i suppose, yeah
<ochosi> we can also let things happen on the users-ml
<ochosi> i don't mind
<knome> well -devel is more appropriate
<ochosi> it's just that i'm not subscribed atm :}
<ochosi> ok good
<knome> i do prefer -devel as well
<knome> i'm only monitoring -users
<knome> (mostly)
<ochosi> fwiw, could you quickly link me to tomorrow's meeting's agenda?
<ochosi> i have to add one update-item
<ochosi> or wait i'll find it myself
<knome> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Meetings
<knome> lazy boy
<ochosi> hehe
<knome>  STGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGHH BBB<>>>zUYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY~5~~JH MNJUYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYBNXDN                                       IÃOUIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII0~~+11111111110+++++++++++++++++++-
<knome> 4+
<knome> ooops.
<knome> guess what i'm doing
<ochosi> trying to push someone's buttons?
<knome> :P
<knome> naw, cleaning my keyboard
<davmor2> knome: random keygenerator
<knome> very bad one at that if it was one
<knome> :|
<davmor2> knome: I meant you were create random noise for a key creation :)
<slickymaster> brainwash: http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=729477
<ubottu> Debian bug 729477 in gnome-system-tools "gnome-system-tools 3.0.0-2ubuntu2 crashed with the following message: users-admin crashed with SIGSEGV in g_slice_free1()" [Important,Open]
<elfy> knome - you seriously can't get sudo -i to work in a terminal?
<elfy> oh - mmm 
<elfy> nvm 
<elfy> I guess the best thing to do is to not have any sort of root thing in the testcase anyway 
<elfy> as long as some random command works in there it doesn't really matter much which it is
<elfy> slickymaster: ^^
<slickymaster> yeah I saw it, elfy 
<slickymaster> elfy: you can get sudo -i to work in terminal, even though you will not be using a graphical sudo and therefore it shouldn't be advised. The problem I pointed is due to the fact that in http://packages.qa.ubuntu.com/qatracker/milestones/306/builds/55995/testcases/1585/results it will be required ti run sudo -i mousepad in aplication finder dialog box and it's that that doesn't works as it doesn't launch mousepad at all,
<elfy> <elfy> I guess the best thing to do is to not have any sort of root thing in the testcase anyway 
<elfy> <elfy> as long as some random command works in there it doesn't really matter much which it is
<elfy> then there is no issue :)
<elfy> I just happened to write it while I was doing stuff and used that command - probably better to not have a root anything in a testcase
<slickymaster> elfy: yeah, I agree with you. The few tests that do require the use of administrative privileges are specific and mostly relate to server installs
 * elfy is too old to try doing more than one thing at a time - should have left the bug till the weekend
<elfy> anyway - only got 14 mins of lunch left - bbl
 * slickymaster thinks that elfy isn't familiar with a portuguese saying that only old rags are old
<elfy> lol
<slickymaster> ;)
<ochosi> brainwash: i implemented screen-blanking in the greeter on locking with light-locker, so the vt-flickering should be a bit less now
<elfy> knome: I've pushed change to appfinder for approval, changed root thunar to non-root thunar
<brainwash> ochosi: I'll test that
<ochosi> good, lemme know how it goes
<ochosi> i can tell you in advance that this is what's happening:
<ochosi> screensaver-timeout -> screen-blank -> screen-off (dpms/vt-switching) -> screen-blank
<ochosi> so there's some stuff going on with your display
<ochosi> but it's between off and black
<brainwash> ochosi: ok, but it will be still ugly on my test system due to the resolution change
<ochosi> what resolution change?
<ochosi> vbox?
<brainwash> when switching vt
<ochosi> yeah, but how would you even see that, the screen is blanked the whole time
<ochosi> or are you using virtualbox or something like that?
<brainwash> no
<brainwash> but the proprietary AMD graphics driver
<brainwash> so no kms
<brainwash> so I'll test in like some minutes
<brainwash> ochosi: and we need to fix the greeter to not paint the background specified in the config file if there is an accountsservice one available
<brainwash> always forgetting about this
<slickymaster> brainwash, just a FYI http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=729477
<ubottu> Debian bug 729477 in gnome-system-tools "gnome-system-tools 3.0.0-2ubuntu2 crashed with the following message: users-admin crashed with SIGSEGV in g_slice_free1()" [Important,Open]
<ochosi> brainwash: i'm using the proprietary nvidia drivers, so also no kms, still not sure what resolution issues you have
<brainwash> slickymaster: great, but I still feel that we need to fix this
<brainwash> ochosi: my virtual console does not support my native resolution (amd bios limitation)
<slickymaster> brainwash: yes, you're right. But apparently the package does have a maintainer, Jose Carlos Garcia Sogo <jsogo@debian.org>
<brainwash> slickymaster: nice, so lets give him some time to read the report and comment on it :)
<brainwash> ochosi: I recall that some indicators are visible, but don't show any menu when the screen is locked
<brainwash> like the session selector
<brainwash> no wait
<ochosi> yeah
<ochosi> that's supposed to be like that
<brainwash> that wasn't the latest version of the greeter
<ochosi> we're planning to hide them
<ochosi> or make them look "insensitive"
<ochosi> because you can't change your session or language as long as it's running
<brainwash> right, got a bit confused, because a local installation of the greeter also ships with an "empty" copy of the greeter config file
<brainwash> not using the xubuntu default one
<brainwash> ochosi: yeah, the res change is the issue, makes the vt switch really ugly
<brainwash> I'll test it on another machine then
<ochosi> i'm sometimes wondering whether a little helper app to switch between a couple of predefined panel-layouts could be helpful for new users
<knome> ochosi, ++ if it can also save panel layouts
<ochosi> i was thinking it could offer stuff like "windows-like layout", gnome2-layout, etc
<ochosi> only thing is only panel-internal plugins could be used
<knome> ochosi, sure, but it wouldn't be too hard to save panel layouts, right?
<ochosi> or it'd have to do more complex checks for what's installed
<ochosi> yeah, they're just xml files
<knome> yep
<knome> bluesabre, lderan: ping
<knome> ^ idea for you next little pet project
<ochosi> it could basically be a script with a graphical frontend
<knome> definitely
<ochosi> a bit like gtk-theme-config
<ochosi> small, yet useful
<knome> yep
<knome> exactly
<knome> ultimately i think things like that is what xubuntu can really "bring to the table" when discussing if xubuntu is just ubuntu+xfce or a differing experience
<ochosi> yeah
<ochosi> bbl
<slickymaster> knome: you were right, it's not possible to build the translated versions of xubuntu-docs
<knome> slickymaster, well, it is *possible*...
<knome> i just don't know how
<slickymaster> knome: that meke two if us :)
<slickymaster> make ^^
<slickymaster> well have to go now. bbl
<Unit193> knome: http://unit193.tk/xubuntu/pt/desktop-guide/ ?
<ali1234> ochosi: couldn't it install the necessary plugins with packagekit?
<ali1234> a bit like how gstreamer plugins get installed
<Unit193> knome: pt and ru seem most complete.
<ali1234> it would be good if it backed up the user's current config too
<brainwash> mmh, predefined panel configurations aren't really that useful, but a tool to save and switch between custom ones might be helpful for the user
<ali1234> no, predefined ones would be great
<ali1234> the biggest problem of a customizable desktop is that 99% of all possible combinations are rubbish
<ali1234> kind of like how nearly all random strings of letters are meaningless
<ali1234> if it can install extra plugins with package kit that is even better
<brainwash> sounds redundant to me, but I usually don't use any panels anyway :)
<brainwash> however, I like the aspect of saving/restoring panel configurations
<knome> Unit193, that. did you do that manually or with a Makefile?
<Unit193> knome: Define "manually" ?  I didn't add it to the makefile because I'm better with bash. :P
<knome> feel free to share your script
<knome> i'm looking at stuff around that now
<pleia2> knome: do we want to tweet/blog post wallpaper call?
<pleia2> or keep it small this time around?
<knome> dunno.
<knome> you can decide :)
<pleia2> decisions!
<knome> talk with ochosi if you're unable to
<Unit193> Hrm, I just deleted the po dir, I needed that and not sure how to get it back without a re-clone.  :P
<ali1234> git checkout po
<Unit193> bzr, and it didn't like that.
<ali1234> i don't know how to do this with bzr
<ali1234> usually i just go to #bzr and say "how do i do git checkout with bzr?"
<ali1234> this really annoys them
<Unit193> Hah, niice!
<Unit193> knome: You be slacking for sure on the fi translation. ;)
<Unit193> Some ENTs are invalid too.
<Unit193> knome: http://unit193.tk/xubuntu/ is a random mockup just so you can see all languages, but that'll get overwritten Sunday (script runs to bzr pull and re-up)
<Unit193> http://paste.debian.net/65696/ for example.
<knome> Unit193, hah.
<Unit193> Updated my gen script so an automated run will include the translated links.
<knome> yup
<knome> wondering if there should be a somewhat different all-languages landing page
<Unit193> 00 07 */3 * *   Oh, changed it from Sunday after all.
<Unit193> But yes, guessing the pot file isn't correct?
 * knome shrugs
<knome> should look into it
<knome> we also need to make the header title non-image
<knome> but um
<knome> what was your build script?
<knome> Unit193, ^
<Unit193> I edited scripts/translate.sh and ran a couple lines, now in my normal update script.  It works, but don't think it's proper.
<knome> oki
<knome> that script was quite messed up.
<knome> not completely, but it wasn't perfect either
<knome> we also should use some limit value
<knome> eg. only show translations n% done
<knome> for po4a-translate (another tool) the default was 80%.
<knome> which sounds pretty accurate
<knome> but i don't know how to calculate that percentage across all the files
<knome> and re: the finnish translation, that was just a test to make sure the automatic translation updates were working :P
<knome> but i suppose i could take a weekend and tap it in
<Unit193> http://paste.openstack.org/show/tjJPLkIztfnVRnPcW0de/ still isn't proper, but it's all I needed to change to get it working.
<knome> mm,
<Unit193> And of course the other half. :P
<knome> bleh.
<Unit193> '$doc' isn't used, but I left choose_language ${doc} ${lang}  rather than fixing for one example. :D
<knome> did that create a lot of lang (eg. "pt") directories in the wrong place, like all parent directories it could write to?
<Unit193> Hah, it tried to turn all files into dirs because of the cd .. thing. :D
<knome> heh.
<Unit193> http://paste.openstack.org/show/0qyqEGXPKgc4UJ1BLXNS/ is the jist of it, but just the function, still have the rest of the script to fully generate, sed a line or two, and upload.
<knome> what's $dir?
<knome> i'm wondering what directory structure we want
<Unit193> 1. Check the script.  2. Check the site.  3. for dir in `ls | grep -ve po -e Makefile -e libs -e C` == the language name.
<knome> so if i got it right, includes are copied once per language?
<Unit193> Yep, but could easily be fixed I just was trying to stay close to default.
<knome> was thinking the same at this point as well.
<knome> but we could move C to a subdirectory as well
<knome> then simply have one includes-dir
<knome> and it would be consistent regarding relative path for everything
<Unit193> I have it in en_US.
<knome> slickymaster, http://unit193.tk/xubuntu/pt/
<slickymaster> fabulous knome. Now it's much easier for me to proofread it
<slickymaster> I would love to know how did he build it, though
<knome> note that it's not the latest one though
<knome> there are various ways to do it, but you probably want to let Unit193 do it :)
<slickymaster> knome, not the latest one? what do you mean?
<knome> slickymaster, short answer: xml2po or po4a-translate then xsltproc
<knome> slickymaster, not all the translated strings are up-to-date
<knome> (yet)
<Unit193> slickymaster: That's built on a   00 07 */3 * *   cronjob.
<knome> and it depends on LP running the automatic translation updates as well
<slickymaster> knome, Unit193 Got it
<slickymaster> knome, Unit193 well it's a pretty decent start 
<slickymaster> point for what I need any way
<knome> yep
<Unit193> Also, if that site is too slow, it's "mirrored" at http://vanir.unit193.tk/xubuntu/pt/
<slickymaster> thank you both guys
<Unit193> Sure.
<knome> yep, no problem
<Unit193> Glad it's actually helpful.
<knome> hopefully we'll get something usable in the trusty images ASAP
<slickymaster> Unit193, the response seems pretty decent, but it's good the know the mirror url
<slickymaster> knome, Unit193, at a first glance, it's noticeable that there are still quite a few items untranslated
<knome> yep, that should be fixed soon enough
 * Unit193 didn't do any, not his fault. ;P
<Unit193> Yeah, noticed.
 * slickymaster is convinced that Unit193 is off the hook, but knome .... hmmm
<knome> heh
<knome> i suck so bad at technical writing in finnish :(
<slickymaster> that's probably because you're more used to do it in english
<knome> definitely...
<knome> the ugly truth is that i read and write much more english than finnish
<slickymaster> yeah, you right about that, it's not pretty
<knome> me neither.
<knome> (am pretty)
<slickymaster> when one tends to use more often a foreign language then our native one
<Unit193> knome: I'm bad at it in English. :D
<knome> Unit193, hah.
<Unit193> I've seen your English, I don't want to see your Finnish. ;)
<knome> lol
<slickymaster> lol
<knome> thanks...
<knome> seriously, i'm tapping in the finnish translation, and i'm struggling to find the word for "encourage"...
<slickymaster> knome, as we're on the translations topics, do you mind a request?
<knome> i do mind; please tell me ;)
<ochosi> ali1234: sure it could install plugins via packagekit. actually we could use a real packagekit implementation for parole's gstreamer plugins (if you know packagekit or wanna get to know it ;)), currently we're using a gst-internal helper-script
<slickymaster> knome, sorry, my kid call me
<slickymaster> knome, what I was talking about relates to https://translations.launchpad.net/ubuntu/trusty/+source/ubiquity-slideshow-ubuntu/+pots/ubiquity-slideshow-xubuntu
<knome> ah, the slideshow translations
<slickymaster> knome, do you think you can find the time to make it's translations available
<knome> i'll have to look at it
<slickymaster> yes, I was thinking that it would be nice that Trusty, at least Xubuntu, will be shipped completely Portuguese compatible
<slickymaster> at least in what I can manage to help on that goal
<knome> slickymaster, i think the package needs to be uploaded to trusty before you're able to translate that
<slickymaster> knome, you're probably right. I was fiddling in LP and I noticed that the translation sharing configuration with Ubiquity Slideshow trunk series is still incomplete
<slickymaster> knome, we'll wait
<knome> yep, i wouldn't be too worried about it until next year
<knome> we might want to even change the strings, so if you translated it now, some of the work might be in vain
<slickymaster> knome, exactly and provided we can to do it before docs freeze, we'll be alright
<knome> definitely
<knome> no reason why we couldn't
<slickymaster> yeap
<ochosi> ali1234: if you wanna pick up an existing project, this is most likely a good starting point: http://git.xfce.org/apps/xfce4-profile-manager/
<bluesabre> knome: heyo!
<knome> hey bluesabre :)
<bluesabre> whats up?
<knome> translating the docs!
<knome> 16% done
<bluesabre> woot!
<knome> 18% done ;)
<slickymaster> cy guys tomorrow
#xubuntu-devel 2013-11-14
<GridCube> knome, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/GridCube/rationales/new_ram
<brainwash> verification needed for bug 1206739
<ubottu> bug 1206739 in xfce4-terminal (Debian) "xfce4-terminal crashed with SIGSEGV in magazine_chain_pop_head()" [Unknown,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1206739
<Unit193> Reminder: Next Xubuntu team meeting tomorrow, 1500UTC.
<skellat> Unit193: I thought the wiki page was updated to 1600
<Unit193> Ah, that.  Dang daylight savings.
<knome> congrats pleia2 and elfy on your nomination to the CC!
<elfy> ty knome :)
<slickymaster> good morning all
<elfy> o/
<slickymaster> hi elfy. Good morning
<elfy> hi - running off now for a while
<knome> almost half of the finnish translation of the docs is now done
<bluesabre> busy busy!
<knome> hhe
<bluesabre> I'm taking a personal day to catch back up, so I'll be attending the meeting today :)
<knome> cool
<elfy> hi bluesabre 
<bluesabre> hey elfy
<bluesabre> brb
<bluesabre> back
<bluesabre> my personal day is starting to turn into a sick day :(
<GridCube> oh
<GridCube> :(
 * knome slaps bluesabre 
<brainwash> bluesabre: every time I see your nick in the channel it instantly reminds me of "xubuntu-default-settings/b2_fixes" :)
<brainwash> make it stop! :D
<bluesabre> brainwash: :D
<bluesabre> I'll ping micahg about it again
<brainwash> I just don't understand, why it takes so long, there has to be reason :(
<bluesabre> personal lives, makes a lot of us really busy
<bluesabre> this past week I haven't wanted to look at a computer after leaving work
<elfy> I'm lucky, but unfortunately for us I don't code, as I don't see a computer at work :)
<brainwash> but in this case it's just a simple click on the approve button, or?
<brainwash> I don't want to blame anyone, just want to understand why something like this can take so long
<brainwash> so maybe I myself can help to speed up things
<bluesabre> well, he has to approve it and merge it, but yeah, minimal effort required for that
<knome> meeting in 45 mins.
<knome> !team | MEETING TIME in 40 minutes!
<ubottu> MEETING TIME in 40 minutes!: bluesabre, elfy, GridCube, jjfrv8, knome, micahg, mr_pouit, ochosi, pleia2, skellat, Unit193
<elfy> yep
<knome> look how smart i am, created a useful factoid
<elfy> :)
<knome> (just don't overuse it...)
<elfy> and what a useful factoid that is 
<elfy> nope - that would be super annoying
<knome> that just works in -devel, so no annoying poking around in #x
 * elfy has a quick look at release schedule to count how many times he'll use it between now and april
<knome> !meeting
<ubottu> Next scheduled Xubuntu community meeting and the agenda can be found at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Meetings
<knome> !schedule
<ubottu> A schedule of Trusty Tahr (14.04) release milestones can be found here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ReleaseSchedule
<knome> though that existed already:)
<knome> elfy, btw, i'm quite sure i won't be of much help with alpha 1
<knome> (if we're participating anyway)
<elfy> well I'd rather participate from the beginning - response get's better as cycle progresses as I nag more 
<elfy> so if we leave it - then we'll be up the river
<knome> if you're up the river in london, where exactly are you? westend?
<knome> (that ain't too bad?)
<knome> :P
<elfy> :)
<bluesabre> look at all the !factoids!
<knome> yes!
<GridCube> alright
<elfy> could be a field in Gloucestershire knome 
<knome> if you haven't looked at uds schedule for interesting sessions, now's a good time
<knome> elfy, what's wrong with that?
<knome> fields of gold
<elfy> nothing at all if you come from Glos ... if you don't however ... 
<knome> lol
 * elfy blames knome for taking the conversation offtopic :p
<knome> yep
<knome> five minutes to meeting
<knome> pleia2, wakey wakey :)
<pleia2> mhmm
<pleia2> I need to leave soon for name change things though
<knome> bluesabre, your head any better?
<knome> ochosi, you back home?
<knome> oh that
<ochosi> yup
<knome> meh
<knome> pleia2, how soon? 30mins?
<bluesabre> I'm around for the meeting
<knome> #startmeeting Xubuntu community meeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Thu Nov 14 15:55:56 2013 UTC.  The chair is knome. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
<ochosi> pleia2: unless you have concerns, i'd publish the blog-article by the end of the meeting
<knome> let's go through some of this bureaucracy now...
<pleia2> like 15 :)
<ochosi> pleia2: (knome and me went over it today)
<knome> #topic Items carried on
<knome> #subtopic Open action items from previous meeting 
<pleia2> ochosi: that's good, I just logged into browse real quick
<knome> #action knome to prepare the website for the desktop of the week 
<meetingology> ACTION: knome to prepare the website for the desktop of the week
<knome> WIP
<knome> #action micahg to talk to barry about python2.7/3 situation 
<meetingology> ACTION: micahg to talk to barry about python2.7/3 situation
<knome> #nick micahg 
<knome> #action micahg to upload whiskermenu to xfce PPAs 
<meetingology> ACTION: micahg to upload whiskermenu to xfce PPAs
<knome> ochosi announced the wallpaper project
<knome> done
<ochosi> indeed
<knome> #subtopic Approve or decline specifications on the Roadmap 
<knome> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Roadmap
<knome> some of the devel-related items have been approved last sun
<knome> #action knome will create the blueprints today and contact assignees on filling in work items
<meetingology> ACTION: knome will create the blueprints today and contact assignees on filling in work items
<ochosi> nice
<knome> #info development (read: new feature drop-in) items have been approved already
<knome> i have an idea to save time
<knome> let's vote on every item quickly first:
<knome> +1 is approve, -1 is decline, +0 is "i want to discuss"
<knome> if there is most "abstain" (+0) votes, we'll discuss
<knome> sounds good for everybody?
<elfy> good job I came back then 
<GridCube> ok
<bluesabre> sounds good
<ochosi> +1
<ochosi> :)
<jjfrv8> yup
<knome> elfy, well i wasn't going to start the votes before :00
<knome> micahg, are you around?
<elfy> but I'm +1 to doing that 
<skellat> Good thing I was already logged in so that I caught the early start
<knome> skellat, hello! :)
<knome> skellat, heh, again, just did the bureaucracy
<knome> #voters bluesabre elfy GridCube jjfrv8 knome micahg mr_pouit ochosi pleia2 skellat ubottu 
<meetingology> Current voters: GridCube bluesabre elfy jjfrv8 knome micahg mr_pouit ochosi pleia2 skellat ubottu
<skellat> #undo
<knome> huh? :)
<knome> oh, heh
<knome> #undo
<meetingology> Removing item from minutes: <MeetBot.items.Info object at 0x17c9cd0>
<knome> hmm no...
<skellat> knome: We don't want ubottu voting
<knome> #info development (read: new feature drop-in) items have been approved already
<knome> #voters bluesabre elfy GridCube jjfrv8 knome micahg mr_pouit ochosi pleia2 skellat Unit193 
<meetingology> Current voters: GridCube Unit193 bluesabre elfy jjfrv8 knome micahg mr_pouit ochosi pleia2 skellat ubottu
<GridCube> i dont think he will vote skellat 
<ochosi> who knows... :)
<knome> don't know how to remove a voter...
<skellat> :-)
<skellat> Lets roll with it then
<knome> anywa, let's go
<knome> #vote approve knome's voting mechanism?
<meetingology> Please vote on: approve knome's voting mechanism?
<meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (private votes don't work yet, but when they do it will be by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0 to me)
<knome> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from knome
<elfy> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from elfy
<pleia2> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from pleia2
<bluesabre> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from bluesabre
<jjfrv8> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from jjfrv8
<ochosi> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from ochosi
<ochosi> vote ubottu vote!
<knome> that's enough +1's
<knome> #endvote
<meetingology> Voting ended on: approve knome's voting mechanism?
<meetingology> Votes for:6 Votes against:0 Abstentions:0
<meetingology> Motion carried
<knome> #voters bluesabre elfy GridCube jjfrv8 knome micahg mr_pouit ochosi pleia2 skellat Unit193 
<meetingology> Current voters: GridCube Unit193 bluesabre elfy jjfrv8 knome micahg mr_pouit ochosi pleia2 skellat ubottu
<knome> ah, that sticks
<knome> good!
<knome> #vote Increase the amount of developers/uploaders 
<meetingology> Please vote on: Increase the amount of developers/uploaders
<meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (private votes don't work yet, but when they do it will be by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0 to me)
<knome> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from knome
<skellat> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from skellat
<elfy> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from elfy
<ochosi> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from ochosi
<jjfrv8> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from jjfrv8
<bluesabre> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from bluesabre
<pleia2> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from pleia2
<GridCube> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from GridCube
<knome> (namely, bluesabre, skellat, ochosi, Noskcaj...)
<knome> #endvote
<meetingology> Voting ended on: Increase the amount of developers/uploaders
<meetingology> Votes for:8 Votes against:0 Abstentions:0
<meetingology> Motion carried
<knome> #vote Create a new installable "xubuntu-core" metapackage
<meetingology> Please vote on: Create a new installable "xubuntu-core" metapackage
<meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (private votes don't work yet, but when they do it will be by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0 to me)
<knome> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from knome
<ochosi> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from ochosi
<elfy> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from elfy
<bluesabre> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from bluesabre
<pleia2> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from pleia2
<jjfrv8> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from jjfrv8
<skellat> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from skellat
<GridCube> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from GridCube
<knome> #endvote
<meetingology> Voting ended on: Create a new installable "xubuntu-core" metapackage
<meetingology> Votes for:8 Votes against:0 Abstentions:0
<meetingology> Motion carried
<knome> #vote *INCLUDE* xfce4-whiskermenu-plugin?
 * knome kicks meetingology 
<meetingology> Please vote on: *INCLUDE* xfce4-whiskermenu-plugin?
<meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (private votes don't work yet, but when they do it will be by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0 to me)
<knome> +0
<meetingology> +0 received from knome
<ochosi> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from ochosi
<jjfrv8> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from jjfrv8
<bluesabre> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from bluesabre
<elfy> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from elfy
<pleia2> +0
<meetingology> +0 received from pleia2
<skellat> -1
<meetingology> -1 received from skellat
<GridCube> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from GridCube
<bluesabre> include == set as default?
<knome> i guess i should have been more verbose
<ochosi> i presumed so
<knome> i guess that's a yes, otherwise that wording didn't make sense
<ochosi> yeah, it'll probably end up in the archive anyway
<knome> #endvote
<meetingology> Voting ended on: *INCLUDE* xfce4-whiskermenu-plugin?
<meetingology> Votes for:5 Votes against:1 Abstentions:2
<meetingology> Motion carried
<GridCube> do we need to create rationales for this?
<knome> #info since the voting wasn't all-clear, the team should follow on the progress and proposal by ochosi, but basically approved if it's a sane proposal
<knome> i expect some rationale in the proposal, yeah
<knome> i've asked for a specific proposal from ochosi already
<ochosi> well the proposal is there already
<GridCube> alright
<skellat> As long as we don't look like openSUSE we
<skellat> will be fine
<ochosi> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Roadmap/Specifications/Trusty/Whiskermenu
<skellat> #link https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Roadmap/Specifications/Trusty/Whiskermenu
<knome> skellat, urls will be linkified automatically
<skellat> Okay
<knome> (or at least they used to do that)
<elfy> ochosi: can you talk to me when you've time for testing that 
<knome> ochosi, you're not proposing how to integrate it into the xubuntu deskop, and what you'd like to drop from the default desktop (eg. how you'd like to change the panel layout)
<ochosi> elfy: sure
<knome> ochosi, that's pretty much the only reason why i'm not unconditionally +1
<knome> anyway, forward!
<ochosi> knome: well it does say "advantages over current menu"
<ochosi> but well, i can include more info there
<ochosi> didn't have too much time before
<knome> i'm skipping the "investigate" and "see if we can" -items
<knome> those are relatively minor anyway
<knome> #vote Community wallpapers package 
<meetingology> Please vote on: Community wallpapers package
<meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (private votes don't work yet, but when they do it will be by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0 to me)
<knome> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from knome
<skellat> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from skellat
<GridCube> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from GridCube
<jjfrv8> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from jjfrv8
<bluesabre> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from bluesabre
<ochosi> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from ochosi
<elfy> +1
<pleia2> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from pleia2
<meetingology> +1 received from elfy
<GridCube> thats the 8 of us
<knome> :)
<ochosi> good
<knome> #endvote
<meetingology> Voting ended on: Community wallpapers package
<meetingology> Votes for:8 Votes against:0 Abstentions:0
<meetingology> Motion carried
<knome> #vote Improve reporting (weekly reports) (voting +1 means you're committed to work gathering the reports as well!)
<meetingology> Please vote on: Improve reporting (weekly reports) (voting +1 means you're committed to work gathering the reports as well!)
<meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (private votes don't work yet, but when they do it will be by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0 to me)
<knome> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from knome
<pleia2> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from pleia2
<jjfrv8> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from jjfrv8
<skellat> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from skellat
<elfy> +0
<meetingology> +0 received from elfy
<bluesabre> +1, maybe we can find a place to easily track that?
<meetingology> +1, maybe we can find a place to easily track that? received from bluesabre
<pleia2> bluesabre: I assumed we'd put them on the monthly team report
<GridCube> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from GridCube
<knome> bluesabre, i've been talking with lderan about some fixes/extends to meetingology to be able gather those with #done's or so...
 * bluesabre doesn't know about any of our reports :)
<ochosi> +0
<meetingology> +0 received from ochosi
<knome> bluesabre, there isn't such things as "reports" currently :P
<knome> and by weekly i meant
<skellat> bluesabre: See, for example: http://wiki.ubuntu.com/OhioTeam/TeamReports/
<knome> monthly reports and weekly reports to -release :)
<ochosi> yeah, so "improve" as in: start to write them
<knome> but yeah, +1'd with weekly, so...
<bluesabre> aha
<knome> ochosi, they are basically "written"
<knome> just not sent/gathered anywhere
<GridCube> #endvote
<knome> and no reporting with -release-specific things is done
<knome> #endvote
<meetingology> Voting ended on: Improve reporting (weekly reports) (voting +1 means you're committed to work gathering the reports as well!)
<meetingology> Votes for:6 Votes against:0 Abstentions:2
<meetingology> Motion carried
<elfy> my +0 is based on the fact that no-one bothers to even reply to mails from me
<elfy> so I wonder if anyone will do this 
<knome> elfy, let's talk about that after votes
<knome> because i +1 that discussion :P
<pleia2> elfy: I appreciate your emails :)
 * pleia2 sometimes even tweets them herself!
<elfy> lol - I assume everyone does, but thanks 
<knome> looking if there is something to vote one
<elfy> let's do the voting 
<knome> *on
<knome> #vote Investigate xfce4-power-manager-plugins for inclusion
<meetingology> Please vote on: Investigate xfce4-power-manager-plugins for inclusion
<meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (private votes don't work yet, but when they do it will be by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0 to me)
<knome> +0
<meetingology> +0 received from knome
<bluesabre> ?
<ochosi> frankly, i have no clue what does should do
<skellat> -1 after reading discussion earlier today in xfce-dev where this seems to be an open issue upstream
<meetingology> -1 after reading discussion earlier today in xfce-dev where this seems to be an open issue upstream received from skellat
<knome> that's an item in the roadmap
<GridCube> i have no idea of what it is
<GridCube> +0
<meetingology> +0 received from GridCube
<jjfrv8> +0
<meetingology> +0 received from jjfrv8
<bluesabre> +0
<meetingology> +0 received from bluesabre
<knome> i don't know what those are either
<ochosi> +0
<meetingology> +0 received from ochosi
<pleia2> +0
<meetingology> +0 received from pleia2
<elfy> +0
<meetingology> +0 received from elfy
<ochosi> ok, i'll quickly check...
<GridCube> oh right 
<knome> i'm just giving it a chance if everybody else was "hell yeah let's put those on the ISO"
<GridCube> i remember
<knome> #endvote
<meetingology> Voting ended on: Investigate xfce4-power-manager-plugins for inclusion
<meetingology> Votes for:0 Votes against:1 Abstentions:7
<meetingology> Motion denied
<knome> (postponed, at least until somebody sheds light into it)
<GridCube> it has a plugin to add brightness controls to the panel
<knome> #vote Investigate qpaeq a system wide pulseaudio equalizer
<meetingology> Please vote on: Investigate qpaeq a system wide pulseaudio equalizer
<meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (private votes don't work yet, but when they do it will be by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0 to me)
<knome> -1
<meetingology> -1 received from knome
<GridCube> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from GridCube
<skellat> +0
<meetingology> +0 received from skellat
<jjfrv8> +0
<meetingology> +0 received from jjfrv8
<pleia2> +0
<meetingology> +0 received from pleia2
<knome> (i don't think xubuntu needs an equalizer, but feel free to prove me wrong)
<bluesabre> -1
<meetingology> -1 received from bluesabre
<bluesabre> same here
<elfy> -1
<meetingology> -1 received from elfy
<ochosi> +0
<meetingology> +0 received from ochosi
<bluesabre> also, 
<ochosi> (last time i checked it wasn't very stable)
<knome> GridCube, i'll handle your item on the RAM after the roadmap-voting, because it's a one-off decision rather than putting our time into it
<bluesabre> import PyQt4
<ochosi> (but i generally wouldn't mind)
<bluesabre> that is not gtk :)
<knome> oki
<GridCube> knome, ok
<skellat> -1
<knome> #endvote
<meetingology> -1 received from skellat
<meetingology> Voting ended on: Investigate qpaeq a system wide pulseaudio equalizer
<meetingology> Votes for:1 Votes against:4 Abstentions:3
<meetingology> Motion denied
<knome> skellat, stealth!
<knome> 18:20  knome: #endvote
<knome> 18:20  skellat: -1
<bluesabre> lol
<GridCube> boo :( oh well
<skellat> I saw bluesabre mention Qt4 at the last minute
<skellat> That's a major blocker!
<bluesabre> :)
<knome> true
<GridCube> true
<knome> let's see...
<GridCube> wont argue against that
<bluesabre> though I could always do the port, but no :)
<knome> #vote (Do we want to:) See/ask if we can apply GRUB_DISTRIBUTOR=Xubuntu ?
<meetingology> Please vote on: (Do we want to:) See/ask if we can apply GRUB_DISTRIBUTOR=Xubuntu ?
<meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (private votes don't work yet, but when they do it will be by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0 to me)
<skellat> -1 breaks UEFI compatability
<ochosi> +1
<meetingology> -1 breaks UEFI compatability received from skellat
<meetingology> +1 received from ochosi
<pleia2> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from pleia2
<knome> +0
<meetingology> +0 received from knome
<jjfrv8> +0
<meetingology> +0 received from jjfrv8
<knome> skellat, well obviously we would see if we could work around that
<ochosi> skellat: really? could you quickly elaborate?
<GridCube> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from GridCube
<bluesabre> +0
<meetingology> +0 received from bluesabre
<knome> ochosi, studio and kubuntu had != ubuntu, and they had broken images for UEFI
<skellat> ochosi: Kubuntu had an open bug with 13.10 about that matter that they had to fix
<knome> ochosi, some hardcoded string stuff i think
<elfy> +0
<meetingology> +0 received from elfy
<ochosi> well if other distros have the same issue, i'd say we can fix it together
<ochosi> skellat: or do you generally dislike the idea?
<knome> unless it's and UEFI-UEFI bug/"feature"
<knome> *a
<elfy> couldn't we postpone that for more information? 
<ali1234> bug 1242417
<ubottu> bug 1242417 in ubuntustudio-default-settings (Ubuntu Saucy) "UEFI install broken when GRUB_DISTRIBUTOR!=Ubuntu (e.g. Kubuntu/UbuntuStudio)" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1242417
<knome> elfy, we shall do that :)
<ochosi> i mean the whole vote is only about "whether we want to ask/investigate about it"
<pleia2> ochosi: yeah
<elfy> oh 
<elfy> then +1
<knome> if you want to change votes... you can do it
<elfy> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from elfy
<ochosi> don't see much reason against that tbh, unless ppl think it's a waste of time
<elfy> :)
<skellat> ochosi: Unless LP Bug 1242417 can be fixed soon, we have other things to worry about
<bluesabre> bug 1242417
<ubottu> bug 1242417 in ubuntustudio-default-settings (Ubuntu Saucy) "UEFI install broken when GRUB_DISTRIBUTOR!=Ubuntu (e.g. Kubuntu/UbuntuStudio)" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1242417
<pleia2> it is terribly annoying on laptops where I multi-boot to change grub myself ;)
<knome> skellat, are you generally against it (-1) or not (+1), or want to know more about it generally (not about when bugs are fixed, +0)?
<bluesabre> oh that one, not too observant, am I?
 * pleia2 departs
<elfy> cya
<knome> pleia2, have fun!
<GridCube> bye
<skellat> +0
<meetingology> +0 received from skellat
<knome> #endvote
<bluesabre> have fun pleia2!
<meetingology> Voting ended on: (Do we want to:) See/ask if we can apply GRUB_DISTRIBUTOR=Xubuntu ?
<meetingology> Votes for:4 Votes against:0 Abstentions:4
<meetingology> Motion carried
<knome> let's investigate investigating more.
<knome> i think the rest are not really specification stuff
<knome> look more like one-off decisions
<knome> so,
<knome> #action knome to tweak the roadmap after the meeting
<meetingology> ACTION: knome to tweak the roadmap after the meeting
<knome> #subtopic Strategy Document reviewing
<knome> #info postpone
<knome> #topic Announcements
<knome> #info Ubuntu Developer Summit will run November 19-21, agenda at http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-1311/
<knome> #action team to see the uds schedule and see if they want to participate in sessions
<meetingology> ACTION: team to see the uds schedule and see if they want to participate in sessions
<knome> #nick team
<knome> #info Community: Elizabeth and Elfy are elected as members of the Community Council
<knome> CONGRATS!
<skellat> Congratulations!
<ochosi> +1
<GridCube> :D
<bluesabre> way to go!
<jjfrv8> +1
<skellat> The March of Xubuntu Through The Institutions!
<elfy> thanks :)
<knome> alias TMXTI
<knome> #subtopic Development: screen-locking update for 14.04 
<knome> ochosi?
<ochosi> yup, thanks for the reminder
<knome> well it was on the agenda! :)
<slickymaster> sorry for being late guys
<ochosi> i've worked with peter to improve light-locker feature-wise so it'll be a real replacement for xscreensaver
<knome> skellat, no problem :)
<knome> \o/
<knome> awesome
<knome> slickymaster, ^
<ochosi> #info version 1.1.0 of light-locker features time-based locking
<elfy> brb door
<ted__> oh, i forgot to say hi.
<knome> hey ted__, welcome!
<ted__> hi, eveyone.
<GridCube> :) hi
<ochosi> #info ochosi also patched lightdm-gtk-greeter to blank the screen when light-locker locks the session
<slickymaster> ted__: hi, welcome
<ochosi> so that basically means what we'll have in 14.04 is light-locker, which blanks the screen after the timeout set by X11's screensaver extension (that's installed anyway)
<ochosi> hopefully we can provide some simple UI to control that
<elfy> back
<ochosi> or even better: integrate it into the power-manager UI
<knome> ochosi, let elfy know what kind of testing you need for it
<ochosi> #info for people who want to test this: use the daily PPAs of light-locker and lightdm-gtk-greeter
<ochosi> https://launchpad.net/~light-locker/+archive/daily
<elfy> #info everyone - please give enough time to plan testing
<ochosi> https://launchpad.net/~lightdm-gtk-greeter-team/+archive/daily
<knome> ochosi, that's "how", also remember to tell "what" :)
<ochosi> #info after upgrading these two components, the screen will automatically be locked after the timeout set in X11 (can be controlled via "xset s $timeout")
<ochosi> #info if you need help or run into problems, feel free to ping ochosi
<bluesabre> (be sure to remove xscreensaver first)
<ochosi> #info uninstall xscreensaver in case you want to test this
<ochosi> thanks bluesabre, might've forgotten to mention that :)
<knome> ok, cool
<ochosi> knome: ok, that's it
<knome> #topic Team updates
<ochosi> questions?
<ochosi> ok
<ochosi> :)
<knome> (please use #info and #action)
<knome> (direct questions at ochosi after the meeting)
<knome> no team updates?
<knome> yay.
<bluesabre> #info Noskcaj has been helping to whip catfish into shape, cleaning up the packaging, the code, and even adding a manpage
<ochosi> not really, i mean artwork is gradually improving, but that's always the case :)
<knome> #info knome and Unit193 have been looking at translating the docs
<skellat> #info File a bug against xubuntu-docs to suggest documentation enhancements for the Trusty Tahr cycle
<elfy> #info QA is mostly planned for the cycle - should be plenty of room for manoeuvre for new things
<bluesabre> #info ochosi and bluesabre have been working on upgrading parole, new plugin coming soon for mpris :)
<ochosi> bluesabre: let's hope 0.6 can go into 14.04 (looking at you, libxfce4ui...)
<elfy> #info QA mailings have started
<bluesabre> #info and hopefully fixed packaging for parole's plugins :)
<elfy> #info QA blogs waiting for the website
<knome> #action knome to look at the QA articles drafted in xubuntu.org
<meetingology> ACTION: knome to look at the QA articles drafted in xubuntu.org
<knome> #undo
<meetingology> Removing item from minutes: <MeetBot.items.Action object at 0x18e2890>
<knome> #nick xubuntu-website
<knome> #action xubuntu-website and knome to look at the QA articles drafted in xubuntu.org
<meetingology> ACTION: xubuntu-website and knome to look at the QA articles drafted in xubuntu.org
<knome> #topic New and emerging items
<knome> #subtopic QA mailings
<knome> elfy, so, you've send mails about ISO/package testing
<elfy> yep 
<knome> elfy, what kind of replies did you expect to get?
<elfy> none to those :)
<knome> okay
<knome> (good)
 * skellat has to go as dog ran away
<knome> the "what to test" -replies have been penging on today's voting (we should've done that last week)
<elfy> the ones about planning though specifically asked for team to comment, 
<elfy> yea I guess
<knome> i'm sorry if i haven't replied to some of the planning mails; everything i've seen has been good :)
 * bluesabre will try to improve his responsiveness with responding to the ML
<knome> i hope to get more organized once i get the blueprints and work items se tout
<knome> *set ou
<knome> *set out
<knome> :|
<elfy> knome: even if the 'what to test' was pending - the general parts of the mail could have been commented on 
<knome> #action team to be more responsive on mails on -devel
<meetingology> ACTION: team to be more responsive on mails on -devel
<knome> for me it has looked like everybody has been really busy though :/
<knome> me included
<elfy> yea - I understand that, I am as well 
<knome> i will be in touch with all people individually on blueprints/efforts they are leading to set up the blueprints and work items
<elfy> ok
<knome> if you have any doubts or worries, tell me about those when i get to you :)
<knome> and i will try to reflect on that in any way that might help
<knome> elfy, and again, i'm sorry if i haven't replied to something; i've noticed a reminder-mail works wonders, even on mailing lists; don't be afraid to send such :)
<elfy> I'm not blaming anyone :)
 * skellat has retrieved and disciplined dog
<knome> #subtopic Review minimum system requirements
<knome> GridCube, poke
<GridCube> alright
<GridCube> i made a simple rationale if you could read it
<knome> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/GridCube/rationales/new_ram
<elfy> read it 
<knome> me too
<knome> my first thoughts:
<knome> i agree that a browser is an integral part of operating system
<knome> but isn't it silly to set the system requirements based on what its usage needs?
<GridCube> i don't believe so.
<GridCube> also, thats just an example, other areas also lag very much on low ram settings
<ali1234> by that reasoning xubuntu ram requirement should be like 256MB still
<knome> if a user is able to run several other applications (like abiword+gnumeric) well with 512MB, isn't it a fair thing that minimum required is 512
<GridCube> yes, they could, but it should not be the minimum recommended
<elfy> my thinking is we should set our's using the same rationale for setting it as other's do - or we'll end up looking like we need more than Ubuntu
<ochosi> i think this discussion revolves more about what "minimum requirement" means to us...
<bluesabre> minimum should be whatever is required to boot the live cd
<ochosi> yeah, i somewhat agree with bluesabre on that one
<bluesabre> everything else can go to swap once installed :)
<knome> you *can* use xubuntu with 512MB
<ochosi> ppl can always launch crazy huge slow java apps
<GridCube> yes, you can. that is true. but as i propose it the "recommended to have a pleasant experience"
<knome> or do heavy graphics editing with GIMP
<knome> (which is installed by default)
<GridCube> you can use the apps, if you have patience
 * knome checks the wording on the website
<elfy> how about a minimum and a better guide for 'this is more pleasant' type thing
<knome> ok, the website says
<knome> "Minimum system requirements"
<knome> in addition, we could have "Recommended system resources"
<GridCube> yes :)
<knome> for that, 1GB sounds like a good fit
<elfy> I'd go for that 
<GridCube> i agree
<knome> #action team to set "recommended system resources" in stone
<meetingology> ACTION: team to set "recommended system resources" in stone
<GridCube> haha
<knome> #action xubuntu-website to update website with "recommended system resources"
<meetingology> ACTION: xubuntu-website to update website with "recommended system resources"
<knome> GridCube, well, we need to consider disk space as well
<knome> GridCube, would you like to send an email on that to the ML?
<GridCube> sure
<elfy> I promise to reply to it ;)
<knome> GridCube, just a quick one would do, to gather comments and then vote on the next meeting
<GridCube> P:
<GridCube> alright
<knome> (and if no comments have been sent... then just vote)
<knome> #nick Unit193 
<knome> #info Unit193 is hiding
<knome> #action Unit193 to stop hiding
<meetingology> ACTION: Unit193 to stop hiding
<Unit193> Nothin' to say.
<elfy> lol
<ochosi> well what about the -core thingy?
<bluesabre> then use #lurk, right?
<knome> bluesabre, that's for the bot
<knome> bluesabre, ...oh wait, Unit193 is a bot
<knome> :|
<bluesabre> see!
<knome> Unit193, want to discuss that already?
<knome> ochosi, i was trying to test it earlier today, but it was broken but he just PM'd me he fixed it.
<Unit193> I wanted coffee, but fine.
<knome> #subtopic xubuntu-core discussion
<Unit193> knome: Should be fixed for amd64, but let me try it.
<knome> Unit193, works noe
<knome> *now too
<knome> gets 94.6MB, installed size 290MB
<knome> (with --no-install-recommends)
<Unit193> Heh, sorry 'bout that.  That was elfy's problem too, then.
<knome> installing
<ochosi> so what'd be the total iso size for xubuntu-core?
<knome> iso size?
<Unit193> Alright, so it's made to be installed via apt-get install --no-install-recommends, though could be done with tasksel which would then bring in recommends of the meta without (or hopefully without) all the crazy extras.
<elfy> I know a couple of forum people that would be interested in testing it, if and when it's needed.
<knome> Unit193, what's pending to get it to tasksel?
<ochosi> knome: well i know that we kinda ruled out a separate iso for -core for 14.04, but in general it'd be interesting to know
<Unit193> knome: Well, another review of the seed and the recommends, it can't be tested without actually being merged though.
<ochosi> or: complete installed size
<skellat> Right now a merge proposal would probably be needed against the seed to add the separate seed file
<knome> Unit193, oki
<knome> skellat, ack
<Unit193> I'd like to try and keep things in deps, so it can be installed either way.
<knome> Unit193, since the team showed green light to it... can we progress with that stuff? :)
<Unit193> But, you could put the fonts (liberation) in recommends and/or indicators too.
<Unit193> knome: I suppose?
<knome> ok, cool
<knome> #action team to work with Unit193 to progress with the -core meta
<meetingology> ACTION: team to work with Unit193 to progress with the -core meta
<knome> more subjects to discuss?
<jjfrv8> skellat, what are the next steps on the SRU docs problem?
<knome> #action knome to look into the docs SRU problem
<meetingology> ACTION: knome to look into the docs SRU problem
<GridCube> will the gtk3 indicators issue be fixed for 14.04?
<knome> looks like what ochosi said is true
<ochosi> GridCube: it's on the roadmap
<knome> GridCube, that's the plan
<GridCube> alright
<GridCube> i can't remember anything else now
<ochosi> ok folks, gotta take off, feel free to ping me if there are any more questions
<ochosi> elfy: ah right, you wanted to talk something over before?
<elfy> ochosi: it can wait - no hurry
<elfy> well not much of a hurry anyway :)
<ochosi> what did you want to know, thoguh?
<ochosi> though
<knome> Unit193, we will need different menu/panel stuff for -core
<Unit193> knome: Oh?
<elfy> ochosi: was just - what things will you want testing, what install info is there - if I have that then I can push the testing
<ochosi> knome: can't it use the stuff from the xfce session?
<Unit193> knome: Ah, you mean the missing icons, not really a huge deal to me.
<elfy> ochosi: the ppa links earlier
<ochosi> elfy: well for light-locker i think i mentioned most
<elfy> ok 
<knome> Unit193, that, and the apps menu is a bit off (two separators on top of each other)
<Unit193> knome: USC.
<knome> Unit193, i know
<ochosi> elfy: if you have more questions there, lemme know
<ochosi> elfy: in fact, light-locker is easy to use, but it doesn't autostart until you restarted your session
<knome> okay, so
<knome> #endmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting ended Thu Nov 14 17:06:48 2013 UTC.  
<meetingology> Minutes (wiki):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/xubuntu-devel/2013/xubuntu-devel.2013-11-14-15.55.moin.txt
<meetingology> Minutes (html):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/xubuntu-devel/2013/xubuntu-devel.2013-11-14-15.55.html
<Unit193> knome: Kind of made sense to me to leave them as it'd add more work and in the long run more things to maintain, and pretty simple fix after the install.
<elfy> ochosi: I'll look through the meeting logs and see what I need and get to you 
<knome> Unit193, yep, but we probably should polish it
<GridCube> we didnt choose a next meeting day
<ochosi> elfy: if you wanna test locking and the process is already running (if it's not, just do alt+f2 "light-locker"), you can lock manually with "light-locker-command -l"
<Unit193> Heh, I know I do. :P
<knome> GridCube, oh bleh
<slickymaster> knome: I've just found another bug in xubuntu-docs https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/xubuntu-docs/+bug/1251332 I've assigned myself to it, but a decision has to be made on what approach will be used as a replacement for gksudo
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 1251332 in xubuntu-docs (Ubuntu) "Use of gksudo in Chapter 7. Printing and Scanning" [Undecided,New]
<knome> next meeting in a week. :)
<GridCube> :)
<ochosi> ok folks, bbl
<knome> i'll go and put up the minutes now
<knome> then the roadmap
<knome> then i'll probably take a break
<knome> and after that, create the blueprints and such
<bluesabre> then take another break
<knome> heh
<knome> probably...
<slickymaster> knome: ^^^ did you saw what I said?
<knome> slickymaster, yep, ack
<Unit193> (Yep, core worked for me now as well.)
<knome> slickymaster, commented
<slickymaster> knome: I?ll fix it but there's the need for that decision
<slickymaster> ok
<slickymaster> knome: ok, I'm on it
<knome> lderan, btw, the voting results seem to appear in reverse order :)
<knome> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Roadmap/ is updated
<elfy> thanks knome 
<slickymaster> elfy: I haven't done it yet, so I'm doing it now, congrats on elections to the CC
<elfy> thanks slickymaster :)
<Unit193> Thu Nov 21 16:00:00 UTC 2013  Should be the next meeting.
<Unit193> New event added: http://goo.gl/7cBEpa
<Unit193> knome: Here's a thought, mini.iso doesn't do EFI does it?
<Unit193> Oh, it does secure boot, I'll shutup.
<GridCube> knome, ping
<knome> GridCube, pong
<knome> Unit193, have no idea
<GridCube> ââ
<GridCube> It has come to our attention that the current recommende amount of ram in our website might not be up to date.[1] Even if its true that Xubuntu *will* run with this specfications the user experience will not conform to the expected standard.
<GridCube> Many users move to Xubuntu from older computers to try to "revitalize" them. We from Xubuntu should warn them that yes, the system will work, that they will be able to use the programs that we provide on our default installation, however this wont be the most seamless of experiences. As Xubuntu is not targeted toward this older systems some of us believe that is important to warn our prospected users about this reality.
<GridCube> As we know that many of you deploy xubuntu in regular basis we ask for you to provide us a realistic Minimum and Recommended setup.
<GridCube> This means, how much RAM and Hard Disk space you would recommend to new users? If someone came asking if their computer would support Xubuntu, whats the setting you would tell them, that "no, a different distribution will better suit you"?
<GridCube> â[1] http://xubuntu.org/getxubuntu/â
<GridCube> -- 
<GridCube> Bruno.- 
<GridCube> noooo
<GridCube> well
<Unit193> :D
 * GridCube is ashamed
<GridCube> i wanted that to a private message
<elfy> I can't see a thing
<Unit193> "that they will be able to use the programs that we provide on our default installation"  Firefox and USC?  I'd question those for less than 1G. :)
<brainwash> wait what, xubuntu does not work with 512mb ram anymore?
<GridCube> yes it does
<knome> >___<
<GridCube> frell 
<knome> ok, i can't think straight any more
<knome> i need a break
<knome> bbl
<knome> GridCube, will get to that then.
<GridCube> sorry, :( 
<GridCube> http://pad.ubuntu.com/ciuVqx8257
<GridCube> here, better
<GridCube> someone review it so i dont make a fool of myself
<Unit193> knome: And yes, I asked too soon.
<brainwash> ochosi: yeah, I did add the comment to the greybird report so you get pinged via email and comment on the report as well :P
<elfy> GridCube: is this the mail to the dev list? 
<GridCube> yes
<brainwash> ochosi: now that the fix has been committed (git)
<GridCube> i dont want to send it before someone review it, because i usually missword things
<elfy> GridCube: I'll have a look - but I doubt you'll be making a foo of yourself :)
<slickymaster> bbl
<elfy> cya 
<elfy> GridCube: how does that look? does it say what you mean it to say?
<GridCube> elfy, :) i added a few things but it seems pretty well
<elfy> cool - just did a little thing to it :)
<elfy> scans ok to me 
<ali1234> uh... not trying to be mean but do either of you guys have english as a first language?
<GridCube> not me
<elfy> I do - but I have a headache as well :)
<GridCube> thats why i ask before sending
<elfy> ali1234: change things - that's what a pad's for :)
<ali1234> i.. i don't know where to start
<elfy> ali1234: you know what this is for? 
<ali1234> you just want to ask people how much memory tey think xubuntu needs?
<ali1234> i was here for the meeting
<elfy> basically
<elfy> oh ok - didn't see you :)
<Unit193> elfy: He wasn't called out.
<ali1234> this is a little bit... wordy
<GridCube> ali1234, if you feel it needs to be completely rewriten im ok with that
<ali1234> run-on sentences, and so on
<ali1234> i think you're largely going to get two kinds of answers to this
<ali1234> 1: "i don't recommend anything less than 64-bit/4GB" and
<ali1234> 2: "it runs fine for me in 8MB on my 386"
<GridCube> ali1234, yeah, well we have to live with that
<GridCube> thats why i added the "realistic" point
<Unit193> 1G min usable min, IMO. :P
<ali1234> i don't like this phrase "seamless experience"
<GridCube> yes
<GridCube> change it
<brainwash> did anything change since.. uhm, ubuntu 11.10? why is more RAM needed now?
<ali1234> i can't think of anything better unfortunately
<ali1234> brainwash: the problem is mainly internet stuff
<ali1234> webpages got fatter in the last two years
<Unit193> And kernel/Ubuntu core.
<brainwash> yea, maybe
<GridCube> brainwash, web browsers
<GridCube> they changed a whole freaking lot
<brainwash> firefox was always bloated
<Unit193> Used to be less.s
<brainwash> didn't the mozilla reduce the memory usage?
<GridCube> not that i've noticed
<Unit193> Yep.
<ali1234> they did, but webpages got more complicated too, it balanced out
<GridCube> yesterday just two tabs of the ubuntu wiki used 360MiB
<Unit193> Flash all the things! :P
<brainwash> I guess the main issue is, that most people open several tabs
<ali1234> i have 1.3GB in use and i only rebooted today
<ali1234> it will be up to 6-7GB in a couple of days when i start opening things
<elfy> -/+ buffers/cache:  1312 after 6 hours 
<ali1234> cache goes a long way to making the system usable too
<elfy> yep
<ali1234> especially if you don't have a SSD
<GridCube> and if you open a video in youtube you are lost
<ali1234> http://www.youtube.com/feather_beta helps a lot
<ochosi> knome: could you check the wallpaper-call one last time?
<ochosi> i just added small details about the license
<ochosi> or if you were content with it before, then i guess you'll still be happy with it (i didn't add any extra dashes ;))
<ochosi> i'd just like to send this out before i leave for the weekend
<knome> just do it, it'll be okay
<ochosi> knome: i think it'd be cool if there were a blog post summarizing our plans for 14.04
<knome> ochosi, i know
<knome> it would also be cool if i had the blueprints already organized ;)
<Unit193> ochosi: So that everyone can see what fell through? ;)
<knome> ochosi, https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/xubuntu-t-artwork
<knome> pleia2, https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/xubuntu-t-community
<knome> jjfrv8, https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/xubuntu-t-docs
<knome> bluesabre, ochosi, mr_pouit, micahg: https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/xubuntu-t-features
<knome> pleia2, https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/xubuntu-t-marketing
<knome> elfy, https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/xubuntu-t-qa
<bluesabre> over here instead
<bluesabre> busy cycle
<bluesabre> better get started :)
<ochosi> knome: thanks for doing all the boring blueprint work!
<ochosi> it's much appreciated
 * ochosi will try to keep his up-to-date better this cycle
<bluesabre> btw knome, I noticed that we have some outdated, and perhaps unofficial, mugs: http://www.zazzle.com/xubuntu_coffee_mugs-168821292867452141
<bluesabre> I'd like a fancy new mug :)
<bluesabre> pleia2 ^
<ochosi> that'd be nice
<Unit193> bluesabre: Too small. :P}
<bluesabre> I have to admit that I love all the sticker/button options on unixstickers, that was an awesome choice
<knome> :)
<knome> ochosi, no problem, but please extend as needed, the works items are hardly final
<ochosi> knome: ok, hit the publish-button
<knome> tweeted
<knome> also, https://twitter.com/Xubuntu/status/401089760774467585
<ochosi> nice, thanks
<ochosi> i g+'d it
<ochosi> maybe someone will fb it
<bluesabre> fb the wallpaper stuff?
<ochosi> yeah
<ochosi> knome: well done! (also the roadmap page)
<bluesabre> I'm going to plagiarize you ;)
<ochosi> hehe
<ochosi> good good
<ochosi> i also dropped a hint to webupd8
<ochosi> because they had a "what to expect of 14.04" feature today
<ochosi> and mentioned that there's no news from us yet
<bluesabre> oh, maybe I should just let pleia2 do it
<knome> bluesabre, bah!
<knome> bluesabre, just do it. we want to spread the burden
<knome> it doesn't need to be exactly like the same every time
<bluesabre> done
<elfy> knome: thanks 
<knome> btw, anyone know about linking stuff to facebook a lot?
<knome> i could use some insight on that
<bluesabre> such as ..?
<knome> i'll pm you quickly
<brainwash> bluesabre: bug 1251431
<ubottu> bug 1251431 in LightDM GTK+ Greeter "user background gets painted over background specified in config file" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1251431
<brainwash> ^ part of my vision of the flickerfree "greeter -> desktop" transition
<bluesabre> :)
<brainwash> still working on bug 1232804
<ubottu> bug 1232804 in xfwm4 (Ubuntu) "Improve "login greeter -> desktop" transition in Xubuntu" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1232804
<ochosi> brainwash: hopefully we can improve this for 14.04
<ochosi> did you get a chance yet to test the greeter's blanking on another machine?
<brainwash> let me test it on this one here, just need to grab the latest versions of greeter + locker
<brainwash> this one is intel based
<ochosi> cool
<ochosi> anyway, i gotta read the backlog cause i'm off til monday
<ochosi> seeya!
<brainwash> ochosi: bye
<brainwash> ochosi: switching looks ok without the latest greeter version (your commits)
<brainwash> ochosi: bad news, it got worse
<brainwash> it was ok before
<ochosi> brainwash: ?
<brainwash> ochosi: it blanks the screen completely (black) before displaying the greeter
<ochosi> yeah
<ochosi> that's the idea
<brainwash> it does not look like an improvement
<brainwash> :(
<ochosi> it blanks the screen so to act more like a screensaver
<brainwash> and why do I lose my kb shortcuts after switching back to my desktop?
<ochosi> no clue
<brainwash> regardless of the greeter version
<ochosi> sounds unrelated though
<ochosi> anyway, i'm really off now
<brainwash> really? :P
<brainwash> ochosi: bye bye
<brainwash> ochosi: my result: the black screen adds another "layer" and switching seems to be slightly slower
<GridCube> i'm ok with the etherpad at the moment
<GridCube> is ok for me to send it to the mailing list?
#xubuntu-devel 2013-11-15
<pleia2> good golly, no more pleia2: today
<Unit193> pleia3?
<pleia2> :P
<pleia2> posted to g+, and facebook does it with automagic
<pleia2> knome: blueprints look good, thank you
<knome> pleia2, i hope so they do, but i'm sure there's still things missing ;)
<Noskcaj> can someone look at https://code.google.com/p/prpltwtr/issues/detail?id=88 ? we might have a pidgin twitter option
<knome> Noskcaj, someone, like jackson?
<Noskcaj> did i miss anything these last 4 days?
<knome> http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/xubuntu-devel/2013/xubuntu-devel.2013-11-14-15.55.log.html
<Noskcaj> knome, I've been following it for a while. There's a bitcoin bounty for whoever fixes it, and a lot of good work so far.
<knome> i don't think that's so high-priority issue for us
<knome> but of course it's nice if it's fixed
<Unit193> 1. Not even in VCS/release yet.  2. Not in Debian.
<Noskcaj> Unit193, I know, but it's worth following because it's the only thing i can find that provide twitter for pidgin, something people coming from 12.04 would lose
<knome> Noskcaj, yes... please do follow it
<slickymaster> good morning all
<brainwash> ochosi: bug 1191509 still open, needs to get marked as fixed
<ubottu> bug 1191509 in lightdm-gtk-greeter (Debian) "Disabling language selector leaves strange artifact on the screen" [Unknown,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1191509
<brainwash> slickymaster: hello
<slickymaster> hi brainwash 
<slickymaster> knome: after some digging around, what I was able to find out is that there's no proposed replacement for either gksu nor for gksudo in Ubuntu. Apparently what is being advised is the use of pkexec, which is not a graphical ical frontend for sudo but a graphical frontend for PolicyKit.
<slickymaster> knome: so, IMO, that's leave us with two choices, regarding https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/xubuntu-docs/+bug/1251332, either we instruct users to install gksu in their system or we advise them to run sudo -i in a terminal in order to get a root prompt and then launch whatever graphical application needed
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 1251332 in xubuntu-docs (Ubuntu) "Use of gksudo in Chapter 7. Printing and Scanning" [Undecided,New]
<slickymaster> bbl
<pleia2> ochosi: I think I'll update the wiki page to mention license requirements and link to the blog post, people seem to be adding things w/o license
<pleia2> I'll follow up with the current submissions that have UNKNOWN as a license
<Noskcaj> 2 new wnpp bugs for xfce stuff. Are http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=729504 and http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=729511 of interest to us?
<ubottu> Debian bug 729504 in wnpp "RFP: Xfce-Theme-Manager - advanced theme configurator for XFCE" [Wishlist,Open]
<ubottu> Debian bug 729511 in wnpp "RFP: Xfce4-windowck-plugin - puts the maximized window title on the panel" [Wishlist,Open]
<ali1234> RFP = request for packaging? ie the code exists already?
<Noskcaj> ali1234, yeah. There's one or two other xfce RFP bugs, but they're old
<skellat> Isn't the goal of Debian Bug 729504 already satisfied by gtk-theme-config perhaps?
<ubottu> Debian bug 729504 in wnpp "RFP: Xfce-Theme-Manager - advanced theme configurator for XFCE" [Wishlist,Open] http://bugs.debian.org/729504
<skellat> And I don't quite understand the benefit of xfce4-windowck-plugin
<ali1234> there is a patch for xfwm that hides the title bar on maximized windows, it's paired with that
<Noskcaj> skellat, Pretty much my thoughts too, but i though it was worth mentioning them to the team
<Unit193> Also note they are RFPs, not ITPs or RFSs.
<skellat> Then we can just leave them sit untouched then
<slickymaster> good night all
#xubuntu-devel 2013-11-16
<brainwash> xubuntu usually does not use any event sounds, but something is creating this cache file .cache/event-sound-cache.tdb.xxx...
<brainwash> any ideas what might create it?
<holstein> brainwash: if you've added, even apps from the repos, one of those could be trying to make an event sound
<holstein> brainwash: i dont think the event sounds would be disabled on a per-application basis, either..
<holstein> not sure how that is setup though
<brainwash> holstein: right, maybe I'll find the culprit eventually
<ali1234> brainwash: it's something to do with the login sound
<ali1234> or not... mine is something related to volume changing sound, possibly it comes from the indicators?
<ali1234> try running strings on it
#xubuntu-devel 2013-11-17
<Pwnna> how can i develop xfce-panel on xubuntu?
<Pwnna> can i replace my current panels to test?
<ali1234> Pwnna: just install it to /usr/local
<ali1234> you also need to rebuild any external plugins
<knome> Pwnna, what are you trying to do? if you are working with indicators, please note we're planning to include the patch that supports gtk3 indicators for trusty
<Pwnna> nothing major
<Pwnna> just some stuff with  the window buttons
<Pwnna> indicators are still broken.
<Pwnna> knome: is there like a roadmap for 14.04?
<ali1234> Pwnna: are you the person from the mailing list?
<Pwnna> ye
<knome> !roadmap
<ubottu> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Roadmap/
<knome> like that?
<Pwnna> wait
<Pwnna> ali1234: which person?
<ali1234> shuhao?
<Pwnna> yea
<ali1234> ok, it was me that replied
<Pwnna> oh
<Pwnna> yeah
<Pwnna> idk if installing to usr/local is a good iea
<ali1234> it's the standard way tog o if you want to work on upstream
<Pwnna> i want to maybe spin up a VM
<ali1234> you can also patch the package, but it's less useful if you want to send patches
<Pwnna> yeah
<Pwnna> of course
<Pwnna> i just don't like make install
<ali1234> yeah that's a fairly good idea
<Pwnna> virtualbox or kvm?
<ali1234> whichever you prefer
<ali1234> i find virtualbox easier
<Pwnna> should i work with 14.04?
<ali1234> i'm not sure if that is even possible yet
<ali1234> if you're going to work on git anyway, it doesn't really matter
<Pwnna> yeah
<Pwnna> ali1234: what about xfwm4?
<Pwnna> like. do i have to keep login logout to see my make install working?
<ali1234> no
<Pwnna> and how do i restart panels?
<ali1234> you just run xfce4-panel -r
<ali1234> same for xfdesktop and xfwm4
<Pwnna> i have to make install everytime, though?
<ali1234> yes
<Pwnna> yeah
<ali1234> well, xfwm4 you can run from it's source dir
<ali1234> not sure about -panel
<Pwnna> ali1234: that fails with the configurations
<ali1234> sometimes you need to do --replace
<Pwnna> xfwm4 just don't detect my configurations.. and then it doesn't even have window borders
<Pwnna> or title bars
<ali1234> i'm running xfwm4 and xfce4-panel both in /usr/local
<Pwnna> if i run xfwm4 in the src dir, that is
<ali1234> you might need to build libxfce4ui and install that too
<ali1234> this is how we currently build custom panel with gtk3 indicators: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Roadmap/Specifications/Saucy/Gtk3Indicators
<Pwnna> yeah
<Pwnna> ali1234: is it possible to run everything from xfce from upstream?
<ali1234> sure, if you build it all and install it
<Pwnna> ali1234: i mean. you guys have to do that for packaging, right?
<Pwnna> i just never know how to do it
<ali1234> packaging is a totally different mess
<Pwnna> i want to help maintain XFCE stuff, but like.. can't get it to run on my machien ..
<Pwnna> what do you mean?
<ali1234> packaging kinda depends on xfce doing a release tarball
<ali1234> packages aren't made directly from git, usually, and it presents some additional problems
<Pwnna> ah..
<ali1234> more than that, i don't know... i just submit patches upstream and wait for them to get released and packaged
<ali1234> your lack of window borders with xfwm4 might be due to it not finding the theme
<ali1234> it should fall back to a default though, i think
<Pwnna> yeah
<Pwnna> but whatever
<Pwnna> i'm gonna do this in a VM
<Pwnna> ali1234: my problem is some project just don't take patches
<Pwnna> like.. mousepad
<ali1234> did you just post the patches on the bugzilla?
<ali1234> cos nobody seems to really check that
<knome> (also many xfce developers are really busy or unavailable)
<ali1234> yes, both of them :)
<Pwnna> i posted patches and mailed >_>
<Pwnna> my patches has been sitting there for months
<Pwnna> i kinda wanna take over maintainance of some projects, like the screenshooter.
<Pwnna> but i don't understand the code enough to do it
<Pwnna> it's really diffiicult to read code without some sort of mentorship from the original author.. i find.
<Pwnna> just takes a long time
<ali1234> yes. it takes experience to be able to do that
<ali1234> the xfce code is quite simple though, compared with something like gnome or kde
<Pwnna> yeah i and i don't usually do C
<Pwnna> that's one of the main problems i find
<Pwnna> are new programs for xfce written in Vala now?
<ali1234> not really. there's a couple
<ali1234> but the core stuff is all C
<Pwnna> yeah
<Pwnna> i wish i knew C better
<Pwnna> only wrote simple C programs, and fiddled with mousepad a bit
<Pwnna> there's no full time developers on XFCE, right?
<ali1234> i don't know
<Noskcaj> Pwnna, Not really. Even the project leader lacks time
<Pwnna> yeah..
<knome> olivier has been away for a long time.
<knome> and no, nobody is paid to work on xfce even part-time
<Pwnna> ..
<Pwnna> yay
<Pwnna> installing from the trusty image
<Pwnna> has xfce participated in summer of code?
<knome> afaik, no
<Pwnna> should :3
<knome> nobody has time to do the mentoring
<ali1234> ...yeah
<Pwnna> ...
<ochosi> brainwash: ok, bug marked as fix released. thanks
<ochosi> pleia2: thanks for following that up!
<pleia2> I did something? :D yay me
<ochosi> you said you'd follow the ones with missing license up, so i presumed that's good :)
<pleia2> oh yes, I emailed the folks who don't have licenses
<pleia2> no response :\ but I tried
<knome> one of the updated the page
<knome> at least...
<pleia2> oh good
<ochosi> yeah, that's something
<ochosi> and it's a weekend, so maybe tomorrow
<pleia2> and since updating the page all the images have license defined
<knome> just a note to this channel as well, i've been removing uploaded files that haven't been (relatively shortly) listed into the page
<pleia2> thanks
<knome> no problem
<pleia2> thinking we might want to do the flickr route with wallpapres next cycle, this wiki page takes about 5 years to load now
<knome> heh
<ochosi> pleia2: yeah, we discussed it before and i was kinda doubtful of the wiki
<knome> tbh we've had a much better response to this call than we've had on the dA group
<ochosi> but so far at least the licenses are mostly there...
<ochosi> less messy in a way
<ochosi> cause it's more effort
<knome> i'm subscribed to Xubuntu/*, i will keep watching the submissions
<knome> for now, i don't mind
#xubuntu-devel 2014-11-10
<bluesabre> dkessel: not yet... hopefully early this week
<elfy> morning all
<ochosi> morning
<elfy> hi ochosi 
<dkessel> morning :)
<slickymasterWork> elfy, can you please try to reproduce bug 1391123
<ubottu> bug 1391123 in abiword (Ubuntu) "abiword crashed with SIGSEGV in packspu_VBoxPackSetInjectID()" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1391123
<brainwash> slickymasterWork: appears to be the same crash bug 1389840
<ubottu> bug 1389840 in parole (Ubuntu) "parole crashed with SIGSEGV in packspu_VBoxPackSetInjectID()" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1389840
<brainwash> caused by the vbox guest additions
<elfy> mmm 
<elfy> well - first log files appear to open with mousepad now - which is better and probably more expected
<elfy> second can't reproduce currently - will try with guest additions installe
<slickymasterWork> yes brainwash, apparently VBoxOGLpackspu.so seems to be the culprit
<elfy> if it is another vbox bug then I am intending to completely ignore vb bugs this cycle :p
<slickymasterWork> that seems reasonable elfy 
<brainwash> or test without the guest additions
<slickymasterWork> brainwash, testing without the guest additions is a nightmare as you only get a 800x600 screen
<elfy> works fine here with vbox 
<slickymasterWork> it could be something related to my vbox guest additions package 
<slickymasterWork> I'll download today's image at lunch and will reset a new box
<elfy> I have 4.3.18_96516
<slickymasterWork> this one is 4.3.12
<slickymasterWork> I'll also upgrade it
<elfy> yep
<elfy> and log files open in mousepad - must have changed - making testcase wrong - I'll follow up on that a bit later this afternoon
<brainwash> bluesabre: will you fix the weather-plugin in precise? someone in my class was really upset about it not being fixed in precise yet
<brainwash> I mean, precise is still supported after all
<bluesabre> brainwash: yeah, we can try to backport a brand new version to precise. It's been broken a lot longer since the code is completely different and it uses a different API
<knome> please keep in mind that precise isn't supported for very long and adjust the amount of work you're ready to put into it accordingly
<bluesabre> that one won't be a patch unless somebody wants to write it, will try to release the new version instead... that might introduce more regressions
<bluesabre> dkessel: let me know if there are any hooks or anything that need to be added to catfish, or if the updated widget names should be enough.  Will try to get to that tonight as possible
<brainwash> sadly we cannot force people to upgrade to 14.04
<bluesabre> brainwash: but we can advise that they transition to it before 12.04 becomes EOL
<bluesabre> heading out now, bbl
<knome> brainwash, we cannot force people to not use xubuntu 9.10 either, but that doesn't mean we should support/fix a broken application in it
<ochosi> i guess the main point is that we're talking about a *weather* plugin for the panel
<knome> i don't know what that was supposed to mean :)
<knome> (whether you thought it's important, or not)
<ochosi> it's really not our core interest, we don't ship it in our default install and people can still do pretty much everything with their systems without it
<brainwash> nah, the point is that it's fixed in trusty and newer, that's the reason why a person complained about it
<brainwash> he still uses precise
<brainwash> slickymasterWork: what happened to your abiword crash report? :D
<slickymasterWork> penalvch blew it :P
<brainwash> maybe you should assign the parole one to vbox and mark the abiword one as duplicate
<brainwash> some vbox dev needs to get involved here
<knome> brainwash, maybe you really should get the bug team membership...
<slickymasterWork> yeah, that sounds like a sane plan
<slickymasterWork> lol
<brainwash> hmpf
<slickymasterWork> hey knome 
<elfy> maybe you should wait and see if you can reproduce on newer vbox :)
 * slickymasterWork is now known as the depinkifier man
<slickymasterWork> of course elfy ;)
<knome> :P
<elfy> just run the mime testcase and passed it ;)
<elfy> depinkify \o/
<dkessel> bluesabre: I guess the widget names should be enough
<jjfrv8> elfy, I think I found a bug in xfce4-mime-settings while doing the testcase. Do you know how I file a bug against that? It's not a package.
<brainwash> jjfrv8: it's part of xfce4-settings
<brainwash> and don't forget to forward the bug to the upstream bug tracker :)
<jjfrv8> Thx.
<brainwash> maybe it's even a known issue
<jjfrv8> maybe but I confirmed it was not present in Trusty
<ochosi> just received the news that status.ubuntu.com will be live soon for 15.04
<jjfrv8> reported bug 1391184
<ubottu> bug 1391184 in xfce4-settings (Ubuntu) "MIME type change incorrectly shows as Default" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1391184
<slickymasterWork> so, elfy I'm not sure to what part of the test is jjfrv8 referring in bug 1391184
<ubottu> bug 1391184 in xfce4-settings "MIME type change incorrectly shows as Default" [Low,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1391184
<slickymasterWork> do you think he is referring to this section of the test: "This test will check that MIME Type Editor will correctly display a file association changed with another application"?
<slickymasterWork> eric_the_idiot:  ^^
<slickymasterWork> ups, not eric_the_idiot you crazy autocomplete, it's elfy 
<knome> both idiot and crazy?
 * knome hides
<elfy> when you change app - it sets that field to something other than default - used to say User Set
<elfy> now it doesn't - whether that is a bug or new behaviour I've not looked at yet
<elfy> I am
<slickymasterWork> because if it's that, whatI'm getting is yeah, but in step 2 if that section what I'm getting is Mousepad, not Abiword
<elfy> idiot for putting up with the crazies :)
<elfy> slickymasterWork: well - I don't know as I haven't nor am I intending too, memorised the testcases :)
<slickymasterWork> because if it's that section, what I'm getting is Mousepad, not Abiword
<elfy> and I'm not looking right now - time for food approacheth
<slickymasterWork> my doubt is if whether I should comment it on his report, or not
<elfy> comment all you want :)
<elfy> make sure to read the 4500 word bug reporting wiki first though :D
<slickymasterWork> lol
<slickymasterWork> so, in your opinion it's the same bug?
<slickymasterWork> only a slight variation 
<elfy> slickymasterWork: I don't know - I've not had time to look yet :)
<slickymasterWork> ok, I'll comment on his report
<slickymasterWork> knome, your intended fiddling on the ubiquity slideshow will just cover the artwork, right?
<knome> slickymasterWork, there's another work item for the content if you look really closely :)
<slickymasterWork> hmmm, now I see it
<slickymasterWork> you go out of your way to keep me busy :P
<knome> ;)
 * slickymasterWork resolves to reciprocate to knome remembering him about the stats of the finnish -docs translation, 96%
<knome> since you're going to mess it up before the end of the cycle anyway, i'll just leave it at 96% for now just to tease you ;)
<slickymasterWork> lmao
<elfy> http://status.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-v/group/topic-v-flavor-xubuntu.html
<knome> nice :)
<elfy> slickymaster: I've confirmed jjfrv8's mimetype bug
<ochosi> http://status.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-v/group/topic-v-flavor-xubuntu.html
<ochosi> oh, elfy already pasted it :)
<knome> haha:)
<knome> hello ochosi 
<Unit193> Still very much on screen too. :P
<ochosi> we're pretty much on track for the moment
<ochosi> hey knome 
<knome> of course we are, the tracking started today, so everything that is done before today isn't even counted
 * ochosi votes for restarting the tracker on a daily basis
<knome> hah
 * elfy votes for turning them off :)
<ochosi> elfy: indicators still broken in V?
<elfy> not seen a recent repetition ochosi 
<ochosi> you mean they're working again?
<elfy> it's on my radar - I will say if I see it
<elfy> still get odd gtk2ish qt for a short while - changing desktop back and forth resets that for some reason
<ochosi> hm, odd
<ochosi> well good if the indicators load again
<ochosi> at least for now
<ochosi> guess we have to test the qt thing more
<knome> elfy, i know you're seeing it, but for the record, #ubuntu-quality (and for slickymaster too)
<elfy> indicators work 
<elfy> iirc I got some updates after seeing it the last time
<ochosi> ok
<elfy> knome: ack
<ochosi> was just wondering since it was still on the bugs-blueprint and all
<elfy> ochosi: well re qt - I can more or less constantly test any fixes re that - clementine is on all the time pc is on
<ochosi> do you test other qt apps than clementine too?
<ochosi> just to make sure this isn't another xchat scenario :>
<elfy> ochosi: well - we can remove it if we need - but it's not hurting anything by being there imo
<elfy> not as a rule
<elfy> got something I could use :D
<ochosi> sure, let's leave it on there for now
<ochosi> no rush
<elfy> oh yea - that's the bug someone else marked as a dupe 
<elfy> of a Private one
<ochosi> humm, quick question
<ochosi> is the ubuntu software center really up for discussion?
<ochosi> (i just noticed it on the features blueprint right now for the first time)
<elfy> no idea?
<elfy> not seen anything about that - other than a general thing the other day
<ochosi> yeah, that mailinglist-discussion isn't a valid basis for a workitem imo
<ochosi> otherwise we'd have libreoffice on there 
<ochosi> *every* cycle
<elfy> isn't lo on there?
<elfy> :p
<ochosi> meh, why don't blueprints have a history...
<ochosi> skellat: just curious, did you add the workitem for reviewing USC?
<elfy> talking of discussions - dkessel if you decide to do anything re deja-dup I did some screenies of it and grsync and some memory figures and the extra packages installed
<elfy> ochosi: blueprint history is on mailing list - not easy though
<elfy> and yes it was skellat 28/10 
<ochosi> k, thanks elfy
<elfy> ftr even though I don't use it myself - I see no real reason to go backwards
<ochosi> go backwards on what?
<ochosi> USC?
<elfy> yea
<ochosi> skellat: ok, now that we've cleared that, may i ask why you added the workitem exactly?
<ochosi> elfy: yeah, me neither. and that ML discussion didn't suggest it'd make any sense tbh
<elfy> yep
<knome> i don't use USC either, but i don't think removing that and bringing synaptic back is the right thing either
<elfy> I install synaptic - but mostly because I'm too lazy to be worrying about removing the wrong kernels in terminal :)
<knome> i just remove USC and use apt-get
<knome> elfy, apt-get --purge autoremove :)
<elfy> I don't remove it - I check now again that it *works* 
<knome> ;)
<elfy> no idea why I bother tbh - I guess ubuntu check it somewhere :)
<ochosi> one would hope so
<elfy> so - back to qt - no idea what qt apps I could use to check it's not just clementine failing 
<elfy> and no I'm not using vlc 
<elfy> heh
<elfy> or should that be "one would hope not" 
<Unit193> elfy: "I'm too lazy to be worrying about removing the wrong kernels" You hit the wrong one, it tells you it's the running kernel and asks you to confirm removal, fwiw.
<Unit193> Skype is Qt too, but that won't help either...
<elfy> so I'd have to do it twice - notice the lazy bit :)
<elfy> :)
<slickymaster> elfy, thing is that I'm not excatly seeing what you both see
<ochosi> elfy: yeah, i'm not using many qt apps either
<ochosi> and skype is really a bad example
<elfy> slickymaster: mmm - well 2 out of 3 do - this is when you change properties in thunar, then re-open mime editor
<elfy> ochosi: yea - not sure where to go with it tbh, I don't see many other's mentioning it - the bug where it showed up was the first time I'd seen it elsewhere
<slickymaster> yes, like I commented https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/xfce4-settings/+bug/1391184/comments/3
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 1391184 in xfce4-settings "MIME type change incorrectly shows as Default" [Low,Confirmed]
<elfy> mmm
<elfy> I think something is being lost in translation here 
<elfy> or we're talking about 2 seperate things
<slickymaster> I think we're might be talking about 2 seperate things
<elfy> if you change to abiword in mime editor - it sets field as user set, if you change in thunar it leaves it as default even though it says abiword
<elfy> but if you change it without closing mime editor - it doesn't change in real time
<elfy> one bit of the testcase works ok - the other doesn't 
<slickymaster> tbh I don't remember now whether I close it or not
<slickymaster> but I can do it again tomorrow
<slickymaster> yeah, the second section of it doesn't
<brainwash> ochosi: I was just wondering, why this report is still open
<brainwash> bug 1325228
<ubottu> bug 1325228 in light-locker (Ubuntu) "light-locker mutes audio on lock, does not un-mute" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1325228
<brainwash> it cannot be fixed
<brainwash> at least not in the code of the current light-locker
<knome> because somebody reopened it
<knome> brainwash, if you read the bug comments, you'd notice that it had been "expired"
<brainwash> yes, soft closed
<brainwash> won't fix or invalid
<knome> even if it was one of those, anybody could open it
<knome> it's invalid now
<brainwash> you cannot change won't fix
<brainwash> ok, thanks
<knome> you can always file a new bug then, which is even more annoying..
<brainwash> why would they file a new bug report? they can just add a comment to the exiting one
<knome> because they feel wrongdoed since the bug is marked "wontfix"
<knome> it's not a rational thing they are doing.
<brainwash> hopefully they manage to file the new report against the correct package then
<knome> just affecting the right package in the same bug would do
<knome> and no, i don't think they manage to do that
<knome> once somebody has said it's a bug in A, they will insist that it's a bug in A until it's fixed in B, after which they don't care
<Unit193> http://xubuntu.org/news/screen-locking-in-xubuntu-14-04/ says to do one thing he did, "Add your user to the âaudioâ group on your computer and  music playback will continue also with light-locker"  (and yes, that double space wasn't added by me.)
<knome> stop the press! there's a double space in the website!
<brainwash> light-locker caused much trouble, but it works fine for the majority of xubuntu users I'd guess
<brainwash> knome: bug 1307929 any news?
<ubottu> bug 1307929 in light-locker (Ubuntu) "light-locker crashes on every unlock" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1307929
#xubuntu-devel 2014-11-11
<skellat> ochosi/elfy: It looks like I shouldn't mess with blueprints while ill.  I don't recall why on earth I added USC.  I cleaned it up to be something more realistic.
<bluesabre> forestpiskie: virtualbox is a qt app
<Noskcaj_> Since my laptop charger is broken, i'm writing replacements for our gnome apps here.
<Noskcaj_> gnome-calculator can be swapped with galculator, calcoo, or grpn
<Noskcaj_> gnome-mines: xdemineur or xbomb
<Unit193> xfce4-soundmenu-plugin    0.7.0-0ubuntu1~14.04        42  well huh, that's more than expected.
<knome> ochosi, bluesabre: saw this on the planet: http://lkubuntu.wordpress.com/2014/11/11/estsaver-a-fast-flexible-and-beautiful-screen-saver-and-locker/
<ochosi> knome: hadn't seen it yet. i'm wondering how safe it is, given that it's a from-scratch implementation (or at least that's what it seems like)
<knome> it's a brand new post
<ochosi> Noskcaj: feel free to put the list somewhere on the wiki and link to it from the whiteboard of the features blueprint
<dkessel> hmm are those dialog boxes really supposed to look that ugly? example from u-s-c: https://imgur.com/OLSKEGb
<ochosi> dkessel: yeah, that's the dialogs in gtk>=3.12
<ochosi> in terms of being touch-friendly, gtk devs decided to make the buttons full-width
<dkessel> wow, this is ugly
<ochosi> but yeah, the dialog is also missing a title, which is why there is the odd whitespace at the top
<dkessel> and no space between dialog border and buttons....
<ochosi> yeah, we can't even do much about that in the theme
<ochosi> it's pretty much the toolkit that controls that
<Unit193> Ugh, this is going to be aweful.
<ochosi> well those have been around for a while already
<ochosi> at least in utopic the dialogs should already look like this
<bluesabre> ochosi: GtkMessageDialog does not set a title by default, https://developer.gnome.org/gtk3/stable/GtkMessageDialog.html#gtk-message-dialog-new
<ochosi> yeah, still seems like USC is only showing secondary text there
<bluesabre> ochosi: that is true
<dkessel> bluesabre: while building the catfish autopilot tests i noticed that the placeholder text "Search terms" in the search box is untranslated - is that untranslatable? It does not seem to be missing in my language, according to launchpad
<bluesabre> dkessel: it should be translatable, but thats one of the fields that glade annoyingly strips, so I might have lost it at some point.  Will check that when renaming widgets
<ochosi> bluesabre: not that i think it's very realistic for 15.04, but mind if i carry the gst1.0 and python3 notes from the U-whiteboard forward to V?
<bluesabre> ochosi: sure, go ahead
<dkessel> bluesabre: ok :) other than that: i have built a simple smoke test, just testing if catfish launches at all. it has been helpful that i could search for an instance of "CatfishWindow" instead of "GtkWindow" :)
<bluesabre> got it
<bluesabre> gotta run, bbl
<dkessel> aaah ugly message boxes everywhere
 * dkessel tries back-in-time as another backup option to review...
<dkessel> it uses the "evil" headerbar :)
<dkessel> hmm or at least a very similar UI
<brainwash> ali1234: bug 1307657 not fixed in trusty yet
<ubottu> bug 1307657 in xfce4-indicator-plugin (Ubuntu Trusty) "UBUNTU_MENUPROXY should not be set in Xfce" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1307657
<brainwash> should we ping attente (or the ubuntu guys)?
<ali1234> probably, yes
<brainwash> ali1234: want to do it?
<ali1234> not really
<ali1234> got enough people to chase already
<brainwash> is it sru worthy?
<ali1234> not really
<brainwash> ali1234: attente will take care of it
<elfy> can someone confirm you can't change refresh rate in task manager 1.0.1-1
<elfy> just want to check it's not local before wasting time on reporting it
<ali1234> elfy: i have 1.0.1-1 on 14.04 + staging ppa and it works for me
<ali1234> xfce4-taskmanager isn't in the ppa though
<ali1234> or mine isn't from it anyway
<dkessel> elfy: works for me too
<elfy> ali1234: thanks - I'll double check after rebooting - same version as you know - just in 15.04
<dkessel> on utopic
<dkessel> works on vivid, too
<elfy> mmm
<elfy> can't change it from 1s here
<elfy> ok, so that's odd Quit it and start it again and it's set to 750ms - but not changeable
<elfy> definitely something up with it here - removed the local .rc file for it, purged and reinstalled
<elfy> can't change the refresh rate at all 
<Unit193> Logan_: If you really love syncs, can you sync thunar-dropbox-plugin?  If not, it's in bluesabre's packageset.
<ali1234> elfy: that bug sounds familiar
<ali1234> is the refresh rate changing even though the menu does not update?
<elfy> ali1234: yep - seems so 
<ali1234> hmm, i've seen this happen before
<ali1234> but like that other bug from the other day, i can't remember where
<elfy> couldn't find a bug
<ali1234> what theme are you using?
<elfy> at least not on bugzilla
<elfy> ali1234: just using defaults - but they'll be staging ppa
<skellat> ochosi: I put down a marker to attend the VV schedule planning session during summit later this week.  The session details are here and feel free to either ping laney to say I'm okay or swap me out as Xubuntu's rep with somebody else: http://summit.ubuntu.com/uos-1411/meeting/22386/1504-release-planning/
<elfy> ali1234: booted vbox install - same issue there with it
<ali1234> they've probably broken gtk
<elfy> but wouldn't then anyone see it - at least in vv
<ali1234> okay it's doing it here too now
<elfy> cool
<elfy> thought I was going nuts again :p
<knome> how's that relevant?
<elfy> shall I report it - or do you think there's a dupe?
<knome> ;P
<elfy> heh
<ali1234> might as well report it
<elfy> actually I'll report it from the vv vbox one - no fighting with apport and ppa's
<ali1234> hmm
<ali1234> looking at the code now
<ali1234> i don't see how this cold ever have worked
<elfy> bug 1391675
<ubottu> bug 1391675 in xfce4-taskmanager (Ubuntu) "Refresh rate physically changes - not shown in 'menu'" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1391675
<ali1234> the reason it doesn't work is because the radio items aren't in a group
<ali1234> so when you click one it doesn't know which other ones to turn off
<elfy> ok
<elfy> can't seem to link upstream properly on that - commented for the moment
<elfy> I'm off now - night
<knome> nighty elfy 
<ali1234> :O
<ali1234> those code is even more bizarre than i thought
<ali1234> it makes a radio group with 1 item which is the current refresh rate
<ali1234> all the unslected refresh rates are normal menu items
<ali1234> that's just insane
<Unit193> dkessel: Just copy https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Roadmap/Specifications/Utopic/Deja-Dup forward and edit, if you must really propose it.
<sidi> ali1234, that sounds fun
<sidi> what code is that?
<ali1234> xfce4-taskmanager
<ali1234> haha
<ali1234> it also sets the refresh rate before loading the settings
<ali1234> settings are stored in a singleton
#xubuntu-devel 2014-11-12
<ali1234> this whole thing is one big circular reference
<ali1234> right, finally it's fixed
<ali1234> http://bug-attachment.xfce.org/attachment.cgi?id=5747
<elfy> ochosi: not sure if this is expected or not, can you see where to enable an item here - http://www.zimagez.com/zimage/screenshot-121114-095725.php
<elfy> you have to guess - http://www.zimagez.com/zimage/screenshot-121114-095752.php
<dkessel> lol elfy :)
<elfy> see the same in synaptic - so it's not just transmission
<dkessel> sure, why not there? it is obvious :)
<elfy> hey dkessel - good morning to you 
<dkessel> hey elfy
<dkessel> good morning to you too :)
<dkessel> i mean, it has been there the previous versions... ;) just kidding
<elfy> possibly - the last cycle I took a lot of notice was 14.04
<elfy> slickymasterWork: I looked at the task manager testcase - bug 1391636
<ubottu> bug 1391636 in Ubuntu Manual Tests "1583 Errors in testcase" [Medium,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1391636
<elfy> just needs checking over and I'll get on and deal with it
<elfy> or dkessel even - anyone in -qa :)
<slickymasterWork> I can make a MP tonight if you want me to, elfy
<elfy> I can do it - not working this week
<slickymasterWork> s/it/if
<slickymasterWork> ok, I can review it if you want
<elfy> ta :)
<slickymasterWork> the bug description pretty much sums it all elfy 
<elfy> :)
<dkessel> bluesabre: looks like I can just use the "BuilderName" property of the widgets to identify them in autopilot. I guess there is no need to give everything an ID then - as long as the "BuilderName" does not change
 * dkessel feels so stupid
<dkessel> I should have seen that converting the manual catfish test requires the adminstrator password... I don't think this will work
<elfy> dkessel: mmm 
<dkessel> i can build it... but it won't work without the correct password
<elfy> dkessel: you're directly converting manual to auto? 
<dkessel> elfy: yes
<elfy> I'll just pull up the manual one 
<elfy> dkessel: so why not get it to search for files that are just always going to be there regardless instead of creating some then updating db
<dkessel> elfy: sure, why not.
<elfy> the only issue then would be being unable to check case sensitivity 
<dkessel> but it takes away some of the test's value
<dkessel> i'll ask in the autopilot channel if they have an idea
<elfy> ok
<jjfrv8> elfy, I posted a comment on bug 1391636
<ubottu> bug 1391636 in Ubuntu Manual Tests "1583 Errors in testcase" [Medium,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1391636
<jjfrv8> elfy, did you see bug 1391357 yet?
<ubottu> bug 1391357 in Ubuntu Manual Tests "Light-locker-settings testcase has obsolete screensaver steps." [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1391357
<jjfrv8> I did not include the suggested revisions in that one ^^ like you did in yours. I was going to ask if you wanted me to draft an MP.
<elfy> jjfrv8: go ahead :)
<elfy> and no I'd not seen that bug
<elfy> jjfrv8: thanks for comment in the task manager one
<jjfrv8> ok, will do.
<slickymasterWork> hey jjfrv8 did you get anywhere with http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2014/10/29/%23xubuntu-devel.html#t12:11
<jjfrv8> slickymasterWork, I figured that was a dead issue. The vote seemed to be that things were okay as they were.
<ochosi> elfy: that is a "bug" in our gtk themes (yeah, gtk devs decided to change some theming properties' names again in 3.14) which is already taken care of in git
<ochosi> i suppose you're not using the shimmer-daily PPA for themes? if not, no worries, i guess we can arrange an update of the themes packages for V soonish
<ochosi> (but just so you know it should already be taken care of. and thanks for noticing/notifying)
<elfy> ochosi: thanks - and yes I have -staging and shimmer ppa's 
<ochosi> hmm, odd. let me check when that last built...
<elfy> no need for a pointless bug report then - that's good :)
<elfy> I got shimmer updates a day or so ago iirc
<ochosi> humm, supposedly it should be fixed in the last build, so that's odd
<ochosi> aaaaah, ofc
<ochosi> you're still having gtk3.12
<ochosi> and the themes are already prepped for 3.14
<ochosi> so you get the regression you'd get without the patch in 3.14 in 3.12 :>
<ochosi> so i guess i was "too fast" there
<ochosi> as soon as 3.14 lands, things should be back to normal
<elfy> ok - cool, as long as there is a reason - I can just wait for 3.14 and watch in wonder as all is fixed as if by magic then :)
<ochosi> indeed
<elfy> if it's March and we've not for gtk3.14 I will let you know you need to reverse course :D
<ochosi> yup, good to keep that on the radar :]
<ochosi> but i suppose this time 3.14 is bound to land
<ochosi> i saw some folks in -desktop messing with patches for it already
<elfy> he he he 
<slickymasterWork> jjfrv8, well it wasn't a proper vote. If on one hand ochosi doesn't really have any strong on dropping the icon from whisker, on the other knome thinks that it's better to keep it and solve the ambiguity docs-internally
<slickymasterWork> and no one else in -team besides them had reaaly pronounce on the subject
<slickymasterWork> s/reaaly/really 
<ochosi> slickymasterWork: you can also ask around at tomorrow's meeting
<ochosi> can't promise yet i'll make it, i'm travelling abroad again
<ochosi> but as i have no strong opinion, it probably doesn't matter too much
<slickymasterWork> I think all add it to the meeting agenda
<Unit193> I can that I'll miss.
<slickymasterWork> buuu
<jjfrv8> slickymasterWork, I won't be able to make the meeting. My proxy would be to abstain. If you decide to proceed with something, I don't think I would be a good candidate to work on it.
<jjfrv8> I'd probably end up adding confusion to something that other folks don't really see as an issue in the first place.
<Unit193> ochosi: If you want to track more gst0.10 bugs, https://github.com/squentin/gmusicbrowser/issues/76
<jjfrv8> bbl
<elfy> personally - removing something from the menu because docs look wrong is not the right way to do things
<knome> necessarily
<elfy> wut?
<elfy> why is Unit193 posting one word comments as knome :p
<knome> it's not necessarily wrong
<knome> i mean...
<elfy> I know what you mean :)
<knome> doing it for that sake is wrong, but the action itself is not necessarily wrong :P
<elfy> yep
<knome> i don't have a strong opinion on this
<knome> the only argument i have for keeping what we have is that some users have learned this way
<knome> we don't want to mess that up now
<elfy> yep - that would be my position
<knome> whether that'd balance out with new users not having at all ambiguity is a different thing
<elfy> well 
<elfy> most people would look at what they see -> docs if they can't find something
<elfy> in my experience
<knome> mhm
<Unit193> Or when we tell them to.
<slickymasterWork> ok, got it jjfrv8. Thanks for the feedback
<Noskcaj> elfy, ochosi: gtk 3.14's blocker list is at http://pad.ubuntu.com/gtk-update-v if you're wondering what we're waiting for
<brainwash> bluesabre: there is a patch attached to bug 1211933
<ubottu> bug 1211933 in xubuntu-default-settings (Ubuntu) "mkinitramfs blows up on casper dependency" [Undecided,Incomplete] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1211933
<brainwash> for xubuntu-live-settings
<brainwash> should we apply this patch? or close the report as won't fix?
<skellat> brainwash: I'll say WON'TFIX as this appears unrelated to the original bug -- https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/xubuntu-default-settings/+bug/1211933/comments/8
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1211933 in xubuntu-default-settings (Ubuntu) "mkinitramfs blows up on casper dependency" [Undecided,Confirmed]
#xubuntu-devel 2014-11-13
<ochosi> hey guys, if anyone can attend the release schedule meeting today at 16utc (UOS), that'd be great (skellat is busy)
<elfy> might be able to flit in an out - any particular issues we need raising ?
<ochosi> (if not, we'll survive)
<ochosi> nah, i see this more as "just in case"
<ochosi> there is no specific agenda there for us, afaics
<elfy> ochosi: okey doke - I'll try and be there 
<ochosi> thanks a bunch!
<brainwash> skellat: would applying the patch do any harm?
<brainwash> even if just removes the warning message
<brainwash> if it
<ochosi> gotta take off, bbl
<bluesabre> !team: Xubuntu community meeting in 7ish minutes
<ubottu> bluesabre: I am only a bot, please don't think I'm intelligent :)
<bluesabre> !team | Xubuntu community meeting in 7ish minutes
<ubottu> Xubuntu community meeting in 7ish minutes: bluesabre, elfy, jjfrv8, knome, lderan, micahg, Noskcaj, ochosi, pleia2, skellat, slickymaster, Unit193
<bluesabre> !team | Meeting time!
<ubottu> Meeting time!: bluesabre, elfy, jjfrv8, knome, lderan, micahg, Noskcaj, ochosi, pleia2, skellat, slickymaster, Unit193
<bluesabre> #startmeeting Xubuntu community meeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Thu Nov 13 11:00:17 2014 UTC.  The chair is bluesabre. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
<bluesabre> good morning folks, who's around?
<bluesabre> today might be a reschedule...
<dkessel> o/
<bluesabre> ohai
<slickymasterWork> hey guys
<bluesabre> hey dkessel, slickymasterWork
<bluesabre> we'll give it a few minutes and see if people start to trickle in before starting
<slickymasterWork> so, no one else around, besides us?
<bluesabre> Unit193 is lurking in -ot
<slickymasterWork> yeah, I was going to as if Unit193 isn't still awake :P
<slickymasterWork> s/to as /to ask
<Unit193> Zombie mode, biting and all.
<slickymasterWork> heh fortunately we are immunized Unit193 
<bluesabre> Alrighty, let's get started then
<bluesabre> #topic Open action items
<bluesabre> slickymasterWork, you've got one on the list, progress?
<slickymasterWork> just a sec bluesabre 
<elfy> hi - be 2 minutes 
<slickymasterWork> #info slickymaster started the calls for "translations important for xubuntu"
<slickymasterWork> I'm planning to run two more calls until the end of the cycle
<bluesabre> awesome
<bluesabre> I guess you can probably #done that one for now
<slickymasterWork> #done slickymaster to start a series of run calls for "translations important for xubuntu" list defined in https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Processes#Package_translations
<bluesabre> thanks :)
<bluesabre> we'll wait for elfy
<elfy> here now
<bluesabre> cool, action items?
<elfy> all done
<elfy> #done mail the -devel list to garner comment on pad
<elfy> #done mail -devel re where we support testers 
<elfy> and more formalized proposal about the QA process is more or less done but not on wiki yet
<bluesabre> sweet
<bluesabre> that could ne #info'd if you want
<elfy> or carry on the existing action 
<bluesabre> that too
<bluesabre> alrighty then
<elfy> #action elfy and knome to complete the QA processes change 
<meetingology> ACTION: elfy and knome to complete the QA processes change
<bluesabre> great
<bluesabre> #topic Team updates
<elfy> I got a few
<bluesabre> #info Vivid should no longer have pink highlights except for the slideshow
<bluesabre> go ahead
<elfy> #info QA waiting on main -release team to start scheduling cycle
<elfy> #info some image testing happening
<elfy> #info some package testing happening
<elfy> #info package testing finding odd issues with testcases - bug's being reported/dealt with
<elfy> done
<bluesabre> cool
<qwebirc88404> sigh 
<elfy> wb qwebirc88404 - not seen you since yesterday :D
<qwebirc88404> #info slickymaster updated Debian screenshots for Xfce/important packages~
<bluesabre> slickymaster, thanks for that :)
<bluesabre> #info Development is picking up on light-locker, new dev release expected soonish
<bluesabre> otherwise, development is a bit slow atm for our team
<bluesabre> #action bluesabre to improve widget naming in Catfish to aid autopilot
<meetingology> ACTION: bluesabre to improve widget naming in Catfish to aid autopilot
<elfy> \o/
<dkessel> :)
<slickymasterWork> heh
<bluesabre> hopefully that will happen tonight
<bluesabre> anything else for team updates?
<elfy> not sure there are any other team people about 
<bluesabre> fair enough
<bluesabre> #topic Announcements
<elfy> never understood why that's not last :p
<bluesabre> same here
<bluesabre> #info Ubuntu Online Summit (UOS) started yesterday, continues through tomorrow
<elfy> or penultimate at least
<elfy> I'm hoping to be floating about during the release planning one - but no guarantees
<bluesabre> I won't be... hopefully we'll get an idea of the timeframes for gtk 3.14 and systemd (and any other highly breakable updates)
<elfy> yep
<bluesabre> if no other announcements, we can start discussion
<elfy> go for it :)
<bluesabre> #topic Discussion
<elfy> shall we move the settings manager one up to top while slickymasterWork is here
<bluesabre> probably a good idea
<elfy> :)
<slickymasterWork> actually I think we should postponed that item
<slickymasterWork> we're just three, doesn't seem to make much sense discuss it 
<slickymasterWork> we know for moment that neither knome and ochosi have any strong opinions on the subject
<elfy> ok - but ftr I am -1 to removing from whiskermenu - for when it does get discussed and I'm not here :)
<Unit193> The idea is to remove "Settings Manager" from the menu?  -1
<bluesabre> I would also be -1. I'm rather fond of the quick access settings manager
<slickymasterWork> I'm 0 on it 
<bluesabre> we can carry on the discussion throughout the day, it's a relatively low-impact change
<slickymasterWork> yes
<dkessel> i think that in the end, there should only be one way to access the settings. either from the menu category "settings", or from the "settings manager" button
<bluesabre> I see benefit in both... having it searchable in whisker, or being able to open the settings manager.  Different folks might prefer one or the other
<bluesabre> #action -team to further discuss potential removal of Settings Manager from Whisker Menu
<meetingology> ACTION: -team to further discuss potential removal of Settings Manager from Whisker Menu
<elfy> dkessel: not sure - the price of removing settings from the 'list' is you can't access specific items
<dkessel> oh ok....
<elfy> price of removing the quick button, you can't do a bunch of things concurrently without going back to the menu
<elfy> my point on this item - we shouldn't be removing things to deal with doc ambiguity - ever
<dkessel> yeah and i haven't thought about the search feature. i guess you're right. people coming from some other os will expect to be able to search for settings
<elfy> doc should reflect what we have and want
<elfy> but - let's move on I guess
<bluesabre> alrighty
<bluesabre> So, blueprints
<bluesabre> On the dev side, these are in a pretty healthy state.  Items are being added and updated by the team, so that's been pleasant :)
<elfy> qa ones are pretty much the same as ever - nothing new there nor expected to be
 * bluesabre should surprise the qa blueprints
<elfy> go for it :p
<bluesabre> looks like artwork has been going smoothly. We already have all of our themes patched for gtk 3.14, so when that lands we'll upgrade the package
<bluesabre> er, most of the themes anyway
<bluesabre> and I think its safe to say we can't really discuss the other ones without knome/pleia2
<elfy> oh - quick question while I think about it please
<bluesabre> go ahead
<elfy> easy way to see  changelogs on ppa updates :)
<bluesabre> PPAs don't support changelogs for daily builds, but other packages we upload will have them
<bluesabre> I think
<elfy> so - mucking about at lp in the ppa to dig out is best way?
<bluesabre> maybe PPAs don't support them at all... will take a look to see the current status
<elfy> bluesabre: generally not in my experience
<bluesabre> elfy: I might set up something to at least see the git changelogs somewhere
<elfy> ok - not a biggy, I've been endin up at something like https://launchpadlibrarian.net/190266350/mousepad_0.3.0%2Bgit-0~709~ubuntu15.04.1_0.3.0%2Bgit-0~710~ubuntu15.04.1.diff.gz
<elfy> via lp and then more or less working it out :)
<bluesabre> ok
<elfy> bluesabre: thanks - let's move on :)
<bluesabre> Any further planning to plan at this time?
<elfy> not that I'm aware of
<bluesabre> Unit193: anything we need to watch for potentially landing in debian?
<bluesabre> and then syncing over to vivid
<Unit193> I think I made a note of something minor, don't know what.
<bluesabre> ok
<bluesabre> :)
<bluesabre> "Core is set for daily only, what about milestones?"
<bluesabre> I see some comments on the pad for that one http://pad.ubuntu.com/vivid-QA-plan
<elfy> yea 
<bluesabre> Sounds like daily is fine then, or specific calls as needed?
<elfy> yep
<elfy> Unit193's baby that is :)
<bluesabre> "it's so precious"
<bluesabre> :P
<elfy> heh
<bluesabre> "Change application testing to a more 'exploratory system'"
<elfy> that's a fairly big change
<elfy> going to mail list about it soonish but ... 
<elfy> plan is to NOT call for packages as we did last cycle
<elfy> call a few times just to get people using vivid to drop by the tracker and report
<elfy> mail testers about staging ppa and the need for testing as things need it
<slickymasterWork> yeah, but packages testing does need some sort of a boost
<slickymasterWork> there are too few of us making them
<elfy> try and get 'dev' to talk to 'qa' as things need testing :)
<bluesabre> ok, sounds reasonable to me (and like less of a headache for you)
<elfy> slickymasterWork: yea - but as we're just in a mid lts cycle I'm willing to try it - it can't be worse than 14.10 cycle
<bluesabre> elfy: don't jinx it
<slickymasterWork> lol
<elfy> it won't be worse - at least one has more than last cycle bluesabre :)
<bluesabre> we don't know how bad it can get just yet :)
<bluesabre> lol
<elfy> anyway action me to mail list re that 
<knome> hmmh
<bluesabre> #action elfy to mail list regarding application testing in a more exploratory system
<meetingology> ACTION: elfy to mail list regarding application testing in a more exploratory system
<bluesabre> #chair elfy
<meetingology> Current chairs: bluesabre elfy
<bluesabre> #chair knome
<meetingology> Current chairs: bluesabre elfy knome
<bluesabre> anybody else want a seat? :)
<elfy> heh
<bluesabre> anything else to add to the discussion?
<ObrienDave> thanks but no thanks ;p
<elfy> bluesabre: not at present
<bluesabre> knome: blueprints stuff from your side?
<bluesabre> guessing not
<bluesabre> #topic Schedule next meeting
<bluesabre> next lucky person is....
<bluesabre> if ubuntu wiki ever loads....
<bluesabre> the suspense is killing me
<elfy> knome is next
<bluesabre> thanks
<bluesabre> #action knome to schedule next meeting
<meetingology> ACTION: knome to schedule next meeting
<bluesabre> #endmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting ended Thu Nov 13 12:03:38 2014 UTC.  
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/xubuntu-devel/2014/xubuntu-devel.2014-11-13-11.00.moin.txt
<bluesabre> thanks all
<elfy> bluesabre: thanks :)
<slickymasterWork> thanks
<Unit193> bluesabre: So right, did you want to sync dropbox-plugin?
<bluesabre> Unit193: sure, I can do that
<bluesabre> knome: meetingology seems to not be reading #done ... I thought that was fixed?
<knome> lderan, PING
<knome> bluesabre, me too
<elfy> hi knome 
<bluesabre> meeting notes are up now, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Meetings
<bluesabre> assuming I did it correctly anyway :)
<elfy> well ...
<elfy> hardest bit is logging in :D
<bluesabre> looks like we haven't updated this in a few months, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/TeamReports
<bluesabre> I can work on that as needed... but not currently
<bluesabre> gotta run, be back tonight
<dkessel> knome: should i nag you about missing icons in vivid? the icon for servers in the local network is missing in thunar
<knome> dkessel, no... nag ochosi
 * dkessel nags ochosi
<knome> elfy, from what pm was okay for you in terms of meetings again on a regular working day?
<elfy> knome: mon-thurs after 5utc generally
<elfy> though thurs 1700utc conflicts with another that pleia2 is in too 
<knome> oki
<knome> sidi, just tell me what you want to share and i can tweet it, pleia2 can do the rest of the social media
<elfy> sidi: see :D
<knome> sidi, and if yoy want, we can organize a guest writer article on xubuntu.org
<knome> elfy, asked on #xfce-dev already, so i know what it is about :P
<elfy> :)
 * elfy oftimes has thought about joining there
<elfy> obviously never gets any further than a fleeting thought 
<knome> it's not too high traffic
<elfy> :)
<knome> though otoh, not sure how useful it would be for you
<knome> unless you are interested in it generally
<elfy> tends to be about the same time as I think about the shimmer channel too 
<knome> heh
<knome> shimmer is more traffic, and probably even less useful
<elfy> it'd only be nosiness rather than anything else :)
<knome> ...unless, again, you are interested in it generally
<elfy> I guess with the shimmer ppa in use - that's likely to be as much interested as I would be :)
<knome> yep
<sidi> perfect
<knome> in shimmer, there are many discussions like "do you like this pixel 1px to the left or here"
<sidi> knome, thats good
<sidi> knome, i think i wanna do this as a shimmer member, targeting xub and xfce social media
<elfy> knome: I guessed ... 
<sidi> will ask corsac if he wants to advertise for debian too when ready
<knome> sidi, mhm
<Unit193> There's been comments about icons I ignore, some about themes I ignore, and...
<knome> sidi, make a plan, and then lets collaborate so we can get it all smoothly out
<sidi> sure
<brainwash> dkessel: isn't that a rather old bug?
<brainwash> this one bug 1306940
<ubottu> bug 1306940 in thunar "In the "browse network" (network:///) instead of the icons displays a blank document" [Low,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1306940
<dkessel> brainwash: .... hmm yeah is present in trusty too
<knome> brainwash, speaking about bugs, anything i can do to help you getting your team memberships? :)
<brainwash> knome: no, not until I have written the application
<knome> okay
 * knome waits
<brainwash> * 7 days later *
<knome> maybe...
<sidi> sidi> http://goo.gl/forms/Oqbe7SEgur session resuming initial survey
<sidi> <sidi> comments wanted!
<sidi> <sidi> i plan on complementing this with either some scenario exercises (showing screenshots and asking people what they think *should* happen), or better yet short interviews of novice users, if the data feels like we don't know what to do
<sidi> knome, ^
<knome> Have you changed the applications that start by default when you login? * should probably allow multiple choices for the yes options
<sidi> correct
<sidi> i need a rough timing btw
<knome> Do you think being able to remove autostart applications is useful?  should be probably more towards "pick the option that describes the situation best"
<knome> under 18yo people can't participate?
<knome> why is gender important?
<knome> how do you plan to use the nationality/culture field?
<knome> and i would move  Would you say that you're very proficient with computers or not at ease with them?  to the beginning of the survey, because the survey can change peoples conception of that
<sidi> knome, steve@shimmer.. is valid right?
<knome> well try it! :P
<sidi> ah right so
<sidi> one by one
<knome> yeah, should be..
<sidi> under 18yo = you will need parents' agreement probably
<knome> okay
<sidi> generally speaking i dont use participants under 18 because i dont know or understand the ethical and legal implications across the globe
<knome> that's fine, didn't notice that it was mentioned in the first page
<sidi> gender = i want to know how many female respondants, and how badly we need to work to encourage female participation in Xfce
<sidi> which at the moment seems absolutely dismal to me
<sidi> nat/culture because i want to understand if we're designing in an ethno-centric way
<knome> okay, but note that the people who participate in this survey hardly represent the xfce community as a whole
<sidi> i.e. all western, and if the non-western respondants have different things to say than the western ones
<sidi> ideally we'd need a translation team to do versions of this in other languages but i doubt we have many resources for that
<knome> ok, so maybe it would be more useful if you added pre-set selections for that
<sidi> knome, sadly you're right
<sidi> knome, it's a very dangerous idea to ask people "are you western/eastern/something else" i think :-) but if you think the question is unclear then i need to rework it indeed
<sidi> for the proficiency youre correct
<knome> i think that it will mean a lot of work to categorize those if you have a few dozens or more replies
<knome> maybe it could ask the continent
<knome> which would be accurate enough
<knome> sure, there are people who think they are western who live in asia, and vice versa... but yeah
<sidi> hmm
<knome> and that, in my opinion, is not a very loaded question, so ++
<knome> and it's auto-organized to the categories we want
<sidi> ideally we'd need to advertise this well to the different xfce communities, getting 50 or so replies would be awesome
<knome> yeah
<knome> the more surveytakers you have, the less open-ended questions you want
<knome> TRUST ME
<sidi> hahaha 
<sidi> youre totally right
<sidi> what im trying to do here though is some form of experience documentation
<knome> right
<sidi> for the open ended questions i care about diversity
<knome> right
<sidi> so i'll just tag them roughly and try to see which stick out
<knome> but still...
<knome> if it's 50 replies, and 10 open-ended questions, that's 500 fields to read
<sidi> correct
<knome> so maybe one open-ended question per subject would be better
<ali1234> so these first two questions. i feel like my answers don't really reflect what you are asking
<sidi> i will remove some
<ali1234> "ho often do you log in to Xfce?" - "less than 1 time per week" - because i never turn off my computer
<knome> sidi, good for you ;)
<sidi> ali1234, "how often do you login"?
<sidi> and "how much time it takes"?
<knome> sidi, right, question #2
<ali1234> it feels like you're asking in general "how much do you use Xfce?"
<knome> "how long does your computer take to log in"
<knome> OR
<sidi> ali1234, not exactly. for instance i use xfce daily but i never login
<knome> "how quickly do you feel comfortable to start working after you've logged in"
<sidi> i always suspend
<sidi> so i dont care about session suspend/resume
<sidi> knome, good points
<ali1234> yes, and question #2, i'm going to say "very long" but not because login takes a long time, it's because i start up load of programs that don't autostart
<ali1234> i do it manually
<sidi> ali1234, right so i need to ask why
<ali1234> and i don't mind doing it manually because i never restart
<sidi> ali1234, same for me when the pc crashes
<sidi> but i do mind a lot personally ;D
<sidi> ok i need to improve those
<ali1234> in fact the only time when i restart is when i have too many windows open and i can't be bothered to close them all
 * sidi is redoing the demographics first
<knome> bbl
<skellat> And we've got release task signups done: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/VividVervet/ReleaseTaskSignup
<elfy> missed that session
<sidi> http://goo.gl/forms/7sH3mf2XQs reworked a bit
<GridCube> sidi: you want answers right now?
<elfy> sidi: bit of a gap between it can take up to 10 seconds and over a minute ... 
<sidi> GridCube, no no im just fleshing out the survey
<sidi> GridCube, i want to expose it to users later on
<GridCube> :)
<sidi> elfy, ah yes true
<sidi> forgot one
<GridCube> ok, that's why i asked
<sidi> elfy, tbh if its 10 or 50 in any case it's enough to make you "wait", but if its many minutes.... its enough to make you do something else
<sidi> ah i need to rephrase it indeed
<elfy> yea - I feel ready to do things within a couple of seconds but end up waiting for it to catch up with me :)
<sidi> elfy, GridCube actually if you do take the survey now it might help finding other bugs
<GridCube> ok
<sidi> elfy, so the question is ambiguous
<sidi> i mean to convey "how long before you do something useful"
<elfy> perhaps "How quickly do you feel comfortable to start working/doing things after you've logged in? " should be more like "How soon are you able to start working/doing things after you've logged in"
<elfy> which I assume is *what* this is really about
<sidi> correct
<sidi> i hope the comment clarifies
<elfy> it does - but I read headlines :)
<elfy> you might want to note where appropriate that multiple choices works 
<elfy> sidi: who's going to see this draft?
<sidi> elfy, can you tell me more about multiple choices? do you mean i should leave more options sometimes?
<sidi> elfy, you guys, the xfce-dev channel, essentially
<drc> Just for what it's worth, I would/did never finish this survey... 1) Some of the questions made no sense or appeared to contradict the previous question, 2) There are at least 3 different "forms" of questions (multiple choice, dropdown and fill in the blank) (never a good idea in surveys), 3) You ask the user to remove/add an application as part of a "survey" (maybe as the last item in the survey, and NOT required), 4) You ask the user to verify 
<drc> several something with no way to verify it (that I could see) and 5) Some questions are required, with no way for the user to know that until s/he tries to "continue". 
<sidi> im not sure which other Xfce dev communities are active
<elfy> sidi: the multiple choices ones - I just found by chance
<sidi> drc, thanks
<drc> :)
<sidi> elfy, i think google forms is quite... uuh limiting
<sidi> might need to roll this somewhere else. :/
<elfy> maybe so - would just take a comment to make people aware something is multiple choice
<drc> It's HARD to develop a good survey.
<elfy> drc: +1 to that
<GridCube> sent sidi 
<sidi> Thanks everyone i'll keep drafting and remove whatever is superflous
<sidi> knome, is it reasonable/acceptable to host some survey CVS on shimmerproject's domain?
<knome> sidi, yeah
<pleia2> lmk if you need anything from me, packing for vacation now (and actually ON vacation for a week)
<pleia2> we do have other social media admins for all resources, I'll doublecheck the wiki to make sure it's up to date
<sidi> pleia2, great to know, enjoy your holidays!
<sidi> knome, i'll look up what's good then. it might be useful to have our own stuff. I think i'll separate task from survey, and design a few more tasks. not sure how to bring about people to try tasks though
<sidi> basically my view of design is that i need to observe user experiences much more than hypothetical projections of uses
<sidi> problem is it doesnt involve the same resources at all
<sidi> and there arent many precedents of usability studies in the FOSS community by and large
<pleia2> ok yeah, so this is accurate: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Marketing/WebPresence
<pleia2> can grab holstein if you need something on facebook, ochosi if you need something on g+
<sidi> thanks :-)
<pleia2> sidi: and thanks :) this vacation is long due
<holstein> :)
<ali1234> sidi: what information do you want from this survey, and why?
<sidi> ali1234, i want to understand if people understand/find logical the separation between session and autostart apps
<ali1234> personally i think the session restore feature should just die. it doesn't and cannot ever work like the way it does on android
<sidi> and i want to know if they understand what the "save session" checkbox actually does on session logout
<sidi> and if they want another mechanism for session resumption
<ali1234> i think the separation is completely logical, because one is an important feature, the other is broken, badly implemented and confusing and used by nobody
<sidi> ali1234, it needs not be broken, but the UI is wrong i think
<sidi> it makes no sense to save a session for it to replay permanently
<ali1234> no, it is broken. we can't resume apps in the state they closed down
<sidi> ah that'll probably get fixed in many years as a side effect of sandboxing :P
<ali1234> so let's remove the feature entirely until then?
<sidi> yeah sounds good to me
<sidi> ali1234, still some apps handle resuming
<sidi> like browsers
<sidi> or music players
<ali1234> yeah but nobody knows which ones
<sidi> true that
<sidi> i think users should be let to add "autostart/session" apps in the settings UI
<ali1234> and they generally handle it badly, differently, and in the most annoying way possible
<sidi> but the logout checkbox should die
<ali1234> didn't we already remove it from xubuntu?
<sidi> i also think the session UI needs to be merged with autostart but i want user opinion first
<sidi> ali1234, oh did you?
<ali1234> i think so
<sidi> ali1234, im on arch sorry :P
<knome> i have it atm
<ali1234> i see the logout so rarely i can't even remember
<sidi> same
<ali1234> it was definitely discussed
<knome> but i don't know if it's removed from new installations
<knome> yes, it was
<sidi> thats why we're not entitled to changing things without surveying
<ali1234> i still have it too :(
<sidi> also developing a user-centered approach on easy topics cannot hurt
<ali1234> 14.04 fresh install
<ali1234> fair enough
<ali1234> what i definitely don't want to see is session and autostart merged
<ali1234> the autostart UI is good, the session one is terrible
<ali1234> plus they are different features
<ali1234> session restore doesn't even need a UI
<ali1234> the entire desktop is the UI
<sidi> ali1234, im curious if users even know how to find the autostart ui
<sidi> ;-)
<sidi> also i think both UIs need improving
<sidi> i like the "if running" option of session
<sidi> i'd like "always / if running / never" instead of just "always / never"
<GridCube> if you use the action buttons in the panel, and make it so it "shut down"s only, no session logout manager, it doesnt ask you if you want to save session, it remembers what you chossed on the session logout manager
<sidi> also the notion of priority is somewhat useful to end users
<sidi> (for some end users at least)
<sidi> ah i need to refine that survey very much
<sidi> maybe interviews would be better
<brainwash> maybe you could learn something from other desktop environments
<ali1234> sidi: well, that's not a problem of session, that's a problem of UI design
<ali1234> sidi: i understand the autostart UI, i don't understand the session UI at all
<sidi> ali1234, the UI design is only a reflection of what we want our users to be able to do :-P
<ali1234> as for priority, there was a bug report when someone wanted dependencies in autostart so they could make sure they start in the right order...
<ali1234> personally i think we should kill xfce4-session asap and just use systemd
<ali1234> i realise that will make people unhappy
<ali1234> but... they can maintain xfce4-session if they want
<knome> as if
<ali1234> i;m surprised there's no UDS session on systemd actually
<ali1234> is it really just that simple that it just works already?
<ali1234> one thing that particularly bugs me is that things like xfsettingsd are started using the session restore functionality
<brainwash> why shouldn't it work? :)
<ali1234> if xfsettingsd crashes and you tick "restore session on login" - now you will never see xfsettingsd ever again
<ali1234> or at least that is how it used to work
<ali1234> that is dumb
<sidi> dependencies was a bit crazy
<ali1234> autostart should be used for things that always start regardless
<brainwash> there is an autostart launcher for xfsettingsd
<ali1234> i'm sure there is, but it is in the session tab as well
<ali1234> as is power manager
<sidi> ali1234, there is a very good XDG spec for how things should start in userspace
<sidi> afaik xfce can handle that spec
<ali1234> yes, xdg-autostart
<brainwash> yes, the autostart launcher is the fallback solution I'd guess
<sidi> it should put its own things in there if it wants to keep allowing xfce4-session/xfwm without the reste of Xfce DE items
<ali1234> the autostart launcher *is* xdg-autostart
<sidi> i think the autostart code should be extended to deal with priorities, as a priority number is much simpler to implement than actual dependencies
<sidi> that covers all the needs of OEM integrators like you guys
<sidi> and advanced users can still tinker about
<ali1234> that will require extending the xdg-autostart spec to support dependencies
<sidi> oh right
<ali1234> someone came up with some ideas how to do that
<sidi> well then maybe systemd yes
<sidi> that's more sensical
<sidi> and a UI to systemd
<ali1234> let me see if i can find the thread or bug reports
<sidi> ali1234, yeah i had commented on this i think
<sidi> ali1234, eventually systemd will probably eat xdg-autostart alive
<ali1234> yes
<ali1234> systemd unit files aren't limited like .desktop files
<sidi> right now the duplication is just too obvious and embarassing
<ali1234> they can have dependencies
<sidi> ali1234, hopefully from the survey i can get a good sketch of what we want to support and what the UI(s) should look like
<sidi> then we can verify if systemd does the job and talk about it
<sidi> but Xfce is more than just Linux sadly this means systemd is only one implementation
<sidi> so supporting xdg-autostart would be necessary
<sidi> or at least keeping the current codebase alive
<ali1234> yeah, that it true
<sidi> but maybe removing its UI
<sidi> aaah
<sidi> first things first
<sidi> understanding whats good
<ali1234> however note the difference between init pid 1 and session management
<sidi> then talking about making it happen
<knome> silly steve
<ali1234> systemd does both but it doesn't HAVE to do both
<ali1234> the same as with upstart
<sidi> ali1234, it's hard to tell the BSD people to build and run systemd for only some of its features as a core Xfce dependency
<sidi> and its also hard to make systemd do less than it desires to, as far as i understand
<ali1234> yes, systemd is not perfect. i with they would split it up properly
<sidi> there probably are reasons why they dont
<ali1234> otoh it isn't as bad as people think
<sidi> reasons beyond the FUD
<ali1234> no, i don't think there are
<ali1234> the stated reasons are "we want change the code fast and not support legacy versions"
<ali1234> which is understandable, but terrible for users
<sidi> ah well
<sidi> my contribution to Linux is too insignificant for me to understand what's the best on the long term
<ali1234> i don't have any idea either
<ali1234> nobody has any idea what they are doing
<ali1234> it took me a long time to realise this, but it is true
<sidi> Linux is too big
<sidi> has too many types of users
<sidi> it takes thousands of people years of work to make significant changes to an OS
<sidi> speculative experimentation is necessary sometimes, i think
<ali1234> i'm all for asking the users what they want. not sure how good the answer could ever be, but that's not really the point
<ali1234> ochosi, bluesabre: i may have signed us up for some extra work...
<ali1234> http://pad.ubuntu.com/uos-1411-ubuntu-mate-remix - ubuntu mate is using lightdm-gtk-greeter and indicators, and they have some patches for both...
<elfy> looked to me like you'd signed yourself up :D
<ali1234> for the indicator stuff yes :)
<elfy> :)
<elfy> good lord 
<elfy> Xubuntu is missing Indicators in Ubquity. WIll contact ali1234 and elfy
<ali1234> haha
<elfy> he'll soon realise the futility in that then :p
<skellat> ali1234: Only picking up 1 work item isn't bad.  I've racked up 7-8 so far during UOS1411.
<ali1234> hmm what's this about lightdm-gtk-greeter dropping gtk2 support?
<ali1234> will that affect us?
<skellat> I haven't the foggiest clue
<ali1234> let's hope not anyway
 * skellat heads outside to start shoveling snow from the driveway as it is looking treacherous
<ali1234> looks like we already use the gtk3 version
<brainwash> since 13.10 I think
<elfy> jjfrv8: looking at bug 1391636 - the tracker testcase doesn't match the code at launchpad, looks like this has already been fixed. Just need another pair of eyes on it if you've time. 
<ubottu> bug 1391636 in Ubuntu Manual Tests "1583 Errors in testcase" [Medium,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1391636
<slickymaster> elfy, how come can that happen? The only way it could happen is if the tracker isn't updated after a merging in the main branch
<elfy> yep
<bluesabre> ali1234: yeah, we dropped gtk2 support from lightdm-gtk-greeter, does not affect us.  Dropping gtk2 let us streamline a lot of code and drop hackiness
<bluesabre> patches are welcome, I might have missed them
#xubuntu-devel 2014-11-14
<jjfrv8> forestpiskie, elfy, re bug 1391636, the version on launchpad is definitely different from the one on the tracker
<ubottu> bug 1391636 in Ubuntu Manual Tests "1583 Errors in testcase" [Medium,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1391636
<jjfrv8> one of the problems you mentioned in the bug does seem to be fixed; the "Click 'Execute' on the menu bar" part.
<jjfrv8> but the green arrow and the "Back in Task Manager" issues are still present in the lp version. At least that's the way it looks to me.
<brainwash> ali1234: someone claims that after returning from the lock screen (light-locker) the vsync feature of xwfm4 is broken and needs to be re-activated. any ideas?
<brainwash> reactivated by toggling the option
<ali1234> brainwash: probably related to VT switch
<brainwash> ali1234: most likely
<brainwash> I'll tell him to file a report
<brainwash> it should be reproducible I'd guess
<sidi> hmkay, i did a bunch of changes
<sidi> i split the survey into one survey for session resumption, and one separate "online task" for the autostart settings UI
<sidi> simplified things a bit
<sidi> im unhappy about not being able to do user test in-the-wild but hey
<sidi> http://goo.gl/forms/jgvJpTW1UV Session handling
<sidi> http://goo.gl/forms/P7G7L8SGWI Task, not sure yet if should be rolled
<sidi> (will be X-posting this to xfce-dev)
<sidi> i'd like from you ladies n gents a last check and your opinion whether those surveys should be advertised to your user base
<sidi> and i'll follow the majority opinion :p
<elfy> sidi: they seemed simple enough to follow
<elfy> knome: maybe the slideshow should be "If you've problems with the livesession #xubuntu, if you just want to extol the virtues of what you're installing #xubuntu-offtopic'
<knome> yeah, very possible
<knome> slickymaster, ^
<knome> i think we'll want to refresh the slideshow content a bit more this time
<knome> or at least i think it's a bit stalled, so to keep it looking fresh, good to at least change wording and screenshots
<elfy> yep - up to now - tinkering around the edges 
 * sidi makes a goat sound
<sidi> beeeeeh
<sidi> knome, what's the Xubuntu devel ML please? I forgot
<pleia2> xubuntu-devel@lists.ubuntu.com
<sidi> thanks pleia2 not in holidays yet?
<pleia2> I missed my flight last night :(
<sidi> ohshit
<pleia2> yeah, it sucks
<pleia2> flying out this evening instead
<sidi> so you could reschedule, phew
<pleia2> missed a day of already-paid-for resort, but yeah
<slickymasterWork> eh eh, the old country just can't let go of pleia2 
<sidi> :-)
<elfy> tried to sit through the systemd session this evening ... about all I got was a headache and this from a pastebin -> vivid universe package universe/x11/xfce4-session requires systemd migration (sysv=False, upstart=True, systemd=False)
<ali1234> from what i gather, the plan is to carry on using upstart for the user session
<ali1234> (for unity)
<ali1234> so given that we use indicators which are now quite heavily tied to unity, we may need to do the same for now
#xubuntu-devel 2014-11-15
<knome> next meeting scheduled
<elfy> thanks :)
<knome> no problemo
<elfy> bug 1391675 - anyone know why we can't add bug watches to that? I couldn't and I guess ali1234 tried
<ubottu> bug 1391675 in xfce4-taskmanager (Ubuntu) "Refresh rate physically changes - not shown in 'menu'" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1391675
<knome> elfy, you are notified of all changes
<knome> elfy, at least that's what launchpad tells me..
<knome> oh, you mean something else
 * knome facepalms
<knome> https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/bugtrackers/xfce-bugs shows the correct bug watch connection
<knome> and the page shows that bug watch too..
<knome> bottom right
<elfy> possibly not quite what I was meaning - I can't add the xfce bug at the top of the bug 
<elfy> at "also affects" 
<elfy> anyway - not hugely important as long as it's watched somehow :)
<knome> see the sidebar, at the top
<knome> maybe they changed how the bug watches are shown
<knome> and afaik, "also affects" is launchpad projects only, never been external bug watches (even though they have been shown there)
<elfy> obviously not explaining myself well here - really not important :)
<knome> i'm pretty sure i've understood you right
<knome> :)
<elfy> ok - well if you've understood me - then what I don't understand is why I can't do the same with that ^^ bug as with bug 1382977 where it HAS let us add the xfce bug in the affects :)
<ubottu> bug 1382977 in thunar "[SRU] Thunar open default not respecting mimetype" [Critical,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1382977
<elfy> anyway ... 
<knome> elfy, right, assigned to
<knome> good question.
<elfy> I try :p
<brainwash> Unit193: should we switch to mate-system-tools?
<ali1234> brainwash: sharing things with mate seems like a good idea to me, they are in a very similar position to us
<ali1234> brainwash: we should wait until mate is in ubuntu repositories first though, maybe we could even help with that?
<ali1234> the plan is for that to happen by alpha 2
<ali1234> http://pad.ubuntu.com/uos-1411-ubuntu-mate-remix
<ali1234> they also use lightdm-gtk-greeter and indicators
<brainwash> until it is in ubuntu repos? didn't they release ubuntu mate 14.10 plus 14.04 just recently?
<ali1234> yes but it uses PPAs
<ali1234> the work to get everything in the normal repos is underway right now, that's what the UOS session was entirely about
<brainwash> I thought that you could just install mate in 14.10
<brainwash> without ppas
<ali1234> you can, there is an ISO that has the PPA enabled by default
<brainwash> that's confusing :D
<ali1234> trust me, i was at the session and talking with the developer :)
<brainwash> but working with the mate guys is very important I think
<ali1234> yes it's confusing, but it will be solved for the next release if all goes to plan
<ali1234> and yes they do want to work with us too
<brainwash> makes we wonder, which one will be able to move on to gtk3 first
<ali1234> we are in roughly the same position there
<ali1234> they have everything "ported" but it's rough and breaking all the time
<ali1234> so just like Xfce really
<ali1234> porting to Gtk really isn't that hard
<ali1234> 3
<brainwash> but almost no one cares about it
<ali1234> right
<ali1234> it doesn't have many practical benefits
<ali1234> it just brings problems when they change the API
<ali1234> maybe watch the start of the session before the video died?
<ali1234> http://summit.ubuntu.com/uos-1411/meeting/22355/ubuntu-mate-remix-1504/
<ali1234> it's only like 5 minutes
<brainwash> 5 minutes?
<ali1234> yeah, the hangout died and we did most of the session on irc
<brainwash> but the video is 16 minutes long
<ali1234> okay maybe it's 10 minutes then... plus 5 minutes of faffing when the video dies
<brainwash> ok, I've watched the video
#xubuntu-devel 2014-11-16
<knosys> Hello :)
#xubuntu-devel 2015-11-09
<flocculant> jjfrv8: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual-tests/+filebug make sure testcase id# is there somewhere :)
<bluesabre> hey flocculant 
<flocculant> hi bluesabre 
<jjfrv8> flocculant, bug 1514417 opened and merge proposal submitted.
<ubottu> bug 1514417 in Ubuntu Manual Tests "1582 Power Manager testcase needs updates for version 1.4.4" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1514417
<jjfrv8> I forgot to link the bug to the MP :(
<flocculant> jjfrv8: thanks jjfrv8 - I linked it - approved it - merged it - updated tracker 
<jjfrv8> :D
<flocculant> jjfrv8: big thanks - so much better when someone does the fiddling first :p
<jjfrv8> now if I can just remember which settings I've screwed up before I file bugs :|
<flocculant> ha ha ha 
<flocculant> why do think I've got about 6 billion vm's in different states :D
<akxwi_dave> lol not just me then.. :-)
<knome> for anybody interested, the tracker code is now in a branch under the website project in LP
<knome> Unit193, pleia2, bluesabre, ochosi: ^
<flocculant> nice :)
<flocculant> even nicer if the one who turned up the other day wanting to help does that :)
<akxwi_dave> knome : Nice bit of coding there.. :-)
<knome> akxwi_dave, ta
<knome> ok, time to go grocery shopping
<knome> hf
<akxwi_dave> enjoy...
<flocculant> akxwi_dave: was talking to someone the other day - who was a bit all at sea with testing 
<flocculant> suggestion was running a session for people - wonder if you'd like to take that as a work item to set up and advertise for us 
<flocculant> you can use the social media stuffs
<flocculant> I'd suggest an irc session - people can connect easily via the tracker 
<akxwi_dave> Yep, I can do...
<flocculant> excellent - just shout when you need something :)
<akxwi_dave> will do..  I'll get some ideas set up and let you know.
<akxwi_dave> When are we wanting to start testing in situe upgrade from 14.04 to 16.04?
<flocculant> akxwi_dave: I'd not point people at that till at least a beta
<akxwi_dave> No worries, was thinking more about myself for the testing
<flocculant> if someone's brave enough or foolhardy enough to do it - then I'd not stop them
<flocculant> but currently we're really half and half 
<akxwi_dave> :-)
<pleia2> knome: thanks re: tracker, I don't even remember how we got it put on the server XD
<knome> pleia2, i pushed it :P
<knome> pleia2, it *should* be safe now to pull the branch there on updates too, configuration files have only examples on tracker
<flocculant> evening knome 
<knome> hey flocculant 
<flocculant> I even looked at the tracker stuff :p
<flocculant> just looked you understand ;)
<knome> ;)
<flocculant> one thing to try and get my head around is enough
<knome> heh
<slickyma1ter> knome, ack the automatic translations export
<flocculant> hi slickyma1ter 
<slickyma1ter> hey flocculant 
<slickyma1ter> krytarik, go ahead and change those two directories names
<slickyma1ter> it makes perfect sense
<slickyma1ter> knome ^^
<ochosi> evening all
<slickymaster> hey ochosi 
<flocculant> hi ochosi 
<ochosi> how're things?
<flocculant> good here
<ochosi> jjfrv8: thanks - an update for xfpm 1.4.4 would be very welcome indeed! (although the changes shouldn't be too dramatic)
<knome> slickymaster, ack
<slickymaster> will you be around tomorrow knome?
<knome> mm, at some point of the day or evening, yes
<slickymaster> I'll ping then. I was thinking that we could have a talk about the ubiquity translations
<knome> or we can have it today if you have time
<slickymaster> little one is with me, today knome 
<slickymaster> and it's about time to start the all bed time fight
<slickymaster> and tbh I'm a bit tired also
<knome> lol
<knome> good luck then
<slickymaster> thanks knome 
<flocculant> knome: any thoughts on when we'll get the contributor docs live? 
<knome> pleia2, ping
<flocculant> ochosi: any thoughts on getting the poll done before the next meeting?
<flocculant> knome: one more :P 
<knome> yes?
<flocculant> so if we're not doing team updates anymore in a meeting
<knome> yep
<flocculant> what do we do about people wanting to tell things in the meetings? 
<knome> they can tell them in the updates section
<knome> let me explain the idea once more
<knome> the "team updates" part i wanted to drop was the mechanical copy-paste of done work items into the meeting
<flocculant> so still doing updates - just not blurbing what's a bp task? 
<knome> because now with the tracker, they are there already
<knome> and sure, if any of those items affect many people, it's probably a good idea to tell you did that
<flocculant> yep - that was what I thought - just making sure 
<knome> or if you need comments
<flocculant> oic the meeting page has changed 
<knome> and yes, we can/should still do updates if they are relevant past the "this work item is done" level
<knome> so the idea was not to stop people from doing any communication
<knome> but to save their time in having to collect these mechanical updates
<flocculant> don't know if you caught the backlog - akxwi is going to set up a session in here for 'testers' 
<knome> and instead let them have a bit more time to update them in the blueprints
<flocculant> yep 
<knome> where they are always live
<knome> well, at least ideally live
<flocculant> yea :)
<knome> re: session, that must have slipped
<flocculant> been trying to put task things on there - even if I then mark it done 
<knome> yeo
<knome> yep*
<flocculant> knome: yea - someone was talking to me the other night about that
<knome> and then if you think what is relevant for a BP work item or not
<flocculant> yea
<knome> i think the line is about "if it's something people outside team might be interested or it might affect them, it's suitable for a work item"
<knome> and yeah, i just added an item that was straight done today - the tracker code being in a branch
<flocculant> I've been putting testcase bugs on mine - if for no other reason that it's easy to see what's going on internally
<knome> yep
<knome> i haven't noticed that the amount of work items would have been too big yet to actually find what you are looking for
<knome> once we have 3000 items, then we might be off the rails...
<flocculant> yep :D
<knome> but yeah, listing more stuff there isn't a bad idea
<flocculant> and really really tired too 
<knome> at the end of the cycle it also provides as a list on who did what
<knome> and a place for personal evaluation as well
<flocculant> yea I guess so 
<flocculant> for those that would do that
<knome> i mean i do look at a cycles BPs and see what i have accomplished in the last 6 months
<flocculant> yep
<flocculant> what you do is different to last cycle :)
<knome> and think whether my time contribution was in level with that
<flocculant> what qa does is re-rinse 
<knome> or if i should start using less time but be more effective when i do work on stuff
<flocculant> yea
<knome> and also if i met enough of the goals set
<flocculant> tracker is certainly a really useful tool 
<knome> usually 10-20% of the work items on a team level are left undone
<flocculant> right
<knome> so if i personally hit that level, i guess i've done well enough
<flocculant> :)
<knome> but yeah, there are a lot of good things in tracking
<knome> and i'm kind of happy that we built our own
<flocculant> I think it's awesome tbh
 * knome bows
<flocculant> kudos :)
<knome> i like the event markers in the burndown
<knome> they are more useful than you might think
<flocculant> and I don't even remember now what it was that I was missing :D
<knome> http://status.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-v/group/topic-v-flavor-xubuntu.html
<flocculant> I find them useful - if no more than a visual cue that a milestone is soon
<knome> yep
<ochosi> knome: oh right, thanks for the reminder. i'll try to set something meaningful up asap
<ochosi> just have been really busy at work and at home
<knome> ochosi, i think you mean flocculant 
<flocculant> :)
<flocculant> cos I had that annoying itch :D
<ochosi> oh well, there you go, sleep deprivation
<flocculant> ochosi: if it helps I'm off all week and could do it if you wanted :)
<ochosi> oh, actually that'd be great. let me quickly take a peek at that spec again..
<flocculant> ochosi: and after 26 years - I am just getting out of that deprivation cycle :p
 * knome looks at the v status page, notes the amount of work items per person and sighs
<flocculant> tomorrow \o/ 
<ochosi> well, lucky you... :)
<flocculant> :)
<flocculant> last one hits 16 tomorrow 
<knome> cool, congrats
<ochosi> hehe
<ochosi> nice
<ochosi> flocculant: so yeah, that page looks right. please just make sure that you mention that there's no "Option C: Advocate your player of choice from the list on that page" in the poll text
<ochosi> i'd prefer to avoid that, and frankly, having that list on that page somehow suggests that
<flocculant> ochosi: I could edit 
<flocculant> build new page and just have it on the choice page as a link
<ochosi> yeah, or use the old W page as a reference there
<flocculant> that said I will probably doodle poll it - and it will just be A or B
<flocculant> with the link
<ochosi> oh ok, so no mailinglist?
<ochosi> but the doodle doesn't allow for real authentication, right?
 * ochosi hasn't doodled much in his time
<knome> i would go with ML, it's then archived forever there
<flocculant> well
<flocculant> I really didn't want to ml it 
<knome> ;)
<flocculant> but will if I had to 
<flocculant> I could do it with condorcet :D
<knome> i won't force anybody to do that if they don't want to, but i would say it would be the simplest
<knome> and the archival thing is great, then we don't rely on anybody else keeping the data up
<flocculant> simplest to run yea :D
<flocculant> I guess so 
<knome> and isn't too hard to figure out the results either
<knome> it's 14 people at max voting
<knome> one of them being you :P
<flocculant> yea
<flocculant> oh noes 
<flocculant> that tips me over the balance ... 
<knome> oops, did i just talk you into it :P
<flocculant> can count to 13 with some forks :p
<knome> yup
<knome> and you can use your legs too!
<flocculant> all three? 
<knome> :X
<knome> i didn't say that!
<flocculant> :)
<flocculant> ochosi: I'll get that sorted out tomorrow then - do you want to see before I send it to list? 
<ochosi> flocculant: nah, that's ok, i trust you with that
<flocculant> okey doke :)
<knome> ochosi, MISTAKE
 * knome hides
<flocculant> too late
<flocculant> in the logs :p
<ochosi> and also, i don't take these "default application xy" things as serious anymore as i used to
<flocculant> :)
<ochosi> i mean yeah, it's good to have good defaults
<flocculant> ochosi: LO took it out of you did it? 
<flocculant> did me :p
<ochosi> but especially with this one, there is no pleasing people
<flocculant> yea for sure
<flocculant> the only way I could be pleased would be if we QT'd 
<flocculant> personally ofc
<ochosi> LO might actually be for the better, i think it's useful for many and the alternatives were bug-plagued and not comparable feature-wise
<flocculant> yea
<ochosi> yeah, well, meh :)
<flocculant> I think that was wise all in all 
<flocculant> ha :)
<ochosi> we already have FF and LO which don't use our toolkit
<flocculant> yep 
<ochosi> let's not go overboard on that one
<flocculant> ochosi: ha ha ha 
<ochosi> ;)
<flocculant> I might argue personally that if you want to use foo then do so - but I'd not argue that point for Xubuntu :)
<flocculant> unless we need Muon 
<bluesabre> well, they do use our toolkit to a point
<bluesabre> firefox is certainly built on gtk
<flocculant> bluesabre: good evening :)
<bluesabre> hey hey
<ochosi> oh wow, the bluesabre sneaks out of the shadows
<flocculant> he's been doing that lately 
<bluesabre> always watching from the shadows once I get home
<flocculant> I think it's the loss of summer time :p
<bluesabre> and turn the lights on
<ochosi> bluesabre: i know, LO uses gtk as well, but in a very very very old-fashioned (and partly weird) way
<flocculant> bluesabre: cos it's dark ... 
<bluesabre> ochosi: its getting better though with each release
<ochosi> bluesabre: yeah, well the gtk3 version still looks like crap tbh ;)
<ochosi> i tested it on the LO hackfest
<ochosi> cause obviously i had to make sure my patch worked with 2 and 3 (which it did ofc)
<ochosi> but they're very busy with all their platforms
<ochosi> anyway, no problem for us, we're gtk2 mostly anyway
<bluesabre> mhm
<ochosi> (i should really re-consider my overuse of the word "anyway")
<knome> nope
<ochosi> btw, one more thing for the poll (just a personal note): if we would still pour resources into gmusicbrowser then dropping it would free those up so we could further improve parole
<ochosi> but since we don't do that anymore, i guess this advantage is gone :)
<bluesabre> :)
<ochosi> (and ofc if we still poured resources into gmb, we might not want to drop it anymore)
<ochosi> s/anymore//
<SwissBot> ochosi meant: "(and ofc if we still poured resources into gmb, we might not want to drop it )"
 * ochosi really needs some sleep
<bluesabre> :D
<ochosi> bluesabre: don't get kids, they eat your sleep!
<knome> SwissBot, seriously?
<flocculant> :)
<bluesabre> ochosi: you'd probably be jealous that I've been getting 8-9 hours of sleep a night lately
<bluesabre> :p
<knome> i slept 14 hours two nights ago
<bluesabre> :o
<flocculant> bluesabre: I have been assiduously ignoring that I get lie-ins now 
<flocculant> didn't think it would be fair 
<bluesabre> :)
<ochosi> yeah well, otoh she has that "awwwwh, look at the baaaaby!" effect, so i guess the higher endorphine level makes up for *some* of the sleep deprivation...
<flocculant> :)
<flocculant> they do that for sure 
<flocculant> ochosi: do you want me to edit the xx spec to lose the list of media players? 
<ochosi> well that'd only be my suggestion, what do the others here think?
<flocculant> might be better
<flocculant> is my thought
<flocculant> bluesabre knome ^^ 
<knome> fine with that
<bluesabre> go for it
<flocculant> k
<flocculant> ok did that
<flocculant> I'll get the mail out tomorrow sometime
<bluesabre> nice
<ochosi> bluesabre: btw, i agree we should offer to launch light-locker if it isn't running
<ochosi> e.g. with a nice infobar
<bluesabre> yup
<ochosi> could be the last new feature before making 1.5 stable
<bluesabre> I'll see about getting something together for that this week
<ochosi> that'd be awesome!
<bluesabre> I've been more busy than lately, so that might slip, but will *try*
<bluesabre> s/than//
<SwissBot> bluesabre meant: "I've been more busy  lately, so that might slip, but will *try*"
<bluesabre> :D
<flocculant> heh
<flocculant> not that I mean this at all personally, but if team is going to vote on this - lderan has been off doing life for a cycle 
<flocculant> maybe that team should have expiry dates 
<ochosi> flocculant: good point, i've actually discussed this with him specifically repeatedly
<ochosi> i'll send him an email now and deactivate him so he has to take some action to get back on the team and voting rights
<flocculant> just seems a bit unfair when there are people constantly about not in team - but 'about' 
<flocculant> k 
<knome> then what about jackson/micah? not sure what their actual contributions have been
<knome> if we go this path, that is...
 * flocculant feels a bit like someone with a pitchfork :(
<ochosi> knome: yeah, arguably i haven't had any PMs with them about this yet
<ochosi> so i wouldn't want to go straight ahead and deactivate them
<knome> of course not
<ochosi> but i agree that i/we should talk to them
<flocculant> then perhaps expiry dates would help - not 6 months as that's how long the processes gives, so someone could be active at start of a cycle
<knome> i think that's a bit meh for -team
<flocculant> perhaps so 
<knome> it is a community after all and everybody should judge their own contributions
<flocculant> just putting the hat on 
<flocculant> yep of course
<ochosi> yeah, we're still in a range where we can discuss things with people individually
<ochosi> i mean we're actually not that many
<knome> yep
<ochosi> i wouldn't want to enforce too much of a policy here
<flocculant> good 
<knome> and i'd rather encourage people to pick up contributing again than felt excluded
<flocculant> was just bringing it up 
<knome> yep
<knome> good to talk about stuff
<flocculant> cos - I'm about to send a mail saying only team can vote :)
<flocculant> which made me think about it 
<knome> inactive members are problematic also for the quorum
<flocculant> yea
<bluesabre> yup
<ochosi> i'm sending this email privately fwiw
<flocculant> ofc
<ochosi> but just so you know, i naturally invited him to just pick up contributing again - i really think re-earning your once held membership should be very easy and i think we should always emphasize that
<knome> ++
<bluesabre> yes, that sounds very reasonable
<flocculant> ochosi: yep totally
<ochosi> ok, so now we're 12
<flocculant> doesn't the bit in the 'processes' say that? 
<ochosi> what a biblical number...
<flocculant> oh man - so what's quorum? 7? 
<knome> yes
<ochosi> i'll let you figure that out and get some sleep instead ;)
<flocculant> \o/ 
<ochosi> (it's really not a hard math problem anyway)
<knome> so 7 people need to vote, 4 on the same side... :P
<flocculant> ochosi: good night :)
<ochosi> night y'all!
<flocculant> knome: ha ha 
<knome> nighty ochosi 
<Unit193> knome: Nice.
<flocculant> evening Unit193 
<knome> hullo Unit193 
<flocculant> while we've got people awake - and Unit193 will hate me now ... who's going to prod about core next? 
<pleia2> knome: hey
<knome> pleia2, hai
<pleia2> another airplane in 9 hours, so kind of chaos day x_x
<knome> so we've been preparing this contributor documentation in the docs branch for some time
 * pleia2 nods
<knome> could we sit down some time and see how we want it done in the docs subdomain?
<flocculant> pleia2: I hope you have shares :D
<pleia2> knome: I'm around next week, starting Tuesday
<knome> pleia2, oki, ping me then :)
<knome> flocculant, ^ also
<pleia2> knome: so we can talk about that, and some other thing that's on our list (something about social media or somethin?)
<knome> yeah
<knome> is tuesday good or fo you want a buffer of some days
<flocculant> knome: yep - I'd like to be about too if I'm awake :)
<flocculant> just to nose in ofc
<knome> what did i write
<knome> :P
<knome> ... good for you or do ...
<flocculant> :)
<bluesabre> nighty ochosi
<bbrawner> Hey knome, you around?
<knome> bbrawner, i am
<bbrawner> How's it going?
<knome> no complaints
<bbrawner> Haha that's always good
<bbrawner> I've been looking around here: http://tracker.xubuntu.org/#tab-details/spec=xubuntu-x-web
<bbrawner> And I haven't been able to find the code haha
<bluesabre> flocculant, Unit193: if we know what needs to be asked, I can start poking folks
<bbrawner> Am I missing something?
<knome> https://code.launchpad.net/~xubuntu-website/xubuntu-website/tracker
<bbrawner> Thanks knome!
<knome> np
<Unit193> bluesabre: Well they *were* supposed to review it, but that never happened.  We fixed it to be more like what they wanted, as far as we can tell.  I'm pretty sure it's out of sync now, but I have no intention on fixing it now.
<flocculant> bluesabre: afaik - we did what they wanted us to - just needs pushing 
<flocculant> that ^^
<bluesabre> Unit193: cool, I'll take a look at it and see how far behind we are. Then we can give ochosi the stabbing stick
<flocculant> well - I'm off now 
<flocculant> night all 
<bluesabre> night flocculant 
<flocculant> and hi bbrawner :)
<knome> nighty flocculant 
<bbrawner> Hey flocculant!
#xubuntu-devel 2015-11-10
 * Unit193 scratches head...
<flocculant> pour quoi?
<bluesabre> possible solution for our default templates, http://pad.ubuntu.com/xubuntu-xenial-scratchpad
<bluesabre> and other first-time run activities
<bluesabre> also, morning flocculant 
<flocculant> hi bluesabre :)
<flocculant> I couldn't think of any other ones we'd need 
<bluesabre> flocculant: as far as templates?
<bluesabre> maybe plain text
<flocculant> bluesabre: yea I guess so - I forget the empty doc isn't really anything
<Unit193> ...And it got sponsored anyway, incorrectly closing that bug.
<Dezponia> So help me out with some confirmation bias here guys. I've been tasked by work to setup a bunch of old computers with GNU/Linux for a charity. The machines are of varying age and performance but most are from the Vista/early win7 days. They should preferably have the same distro on them so the people using them only need to learn 1 system. They must be easy to maintain for years since no one with much GNU/Linux experiance can 
<Dezponia> be expected to help them out (often)
<Dezponia> So far I'm think Xubuntu might be a good fit since it should be a solid base with an LTS release and still fit the more light weight machines
<knome> Dezponia, this would be a better question for #xubuntu 
<knome> Dezponia, or #xubuntu-offtopic
<Dezponia> knome: Was about to say. I just joined this channel because its what was referenced on the Xubuntu community page
<Dezponia> No mention of the other channels that I could see :)
<knome> Dezponia, which page?
<Dezponia> http://xubuntu.org/contribute/
<Dezponia> Reached by just clicking the "The Community" link at the top
<knome> Dezponia, ok...
<Dezponia> knome: I suppose the "Help & Support" tab would've made more sense now that I look it over
<Dezponia> knome: There the correct channels are listed .Thanks anyway, off I go to those channels :)
<knome> yeah, but maybe we need to rethink the website too
<knome> good luck
<knome> (and see you there)
<ochosi> evening all
<knome> hello ochosi 
<ochosi> just looking at the template stuff bluesabre put down
<ochosi> weird, i don't get my remote locations in the open-file dialog anymore in wily
<ochosi> really strange
<ochosi> have any of you noticed that? specifically: i have some ssh locations that used to show up there after being mounted in thunar
<dkessel> bluesabre: i like the idea. Added a little detail thing that came to my mind
<flocculant> evening ochosi 
<ochosi> hey flocculant 
<flocculant> ochosi: rested I trust - for a little while :)
<ochosi> yeah, for a little while only though ;)
<ochosi> brb
<Unit193> Noskcaj: I see you are around now, note that mousepad fix didn't fix the issue.
<Noskcaj> Unit193, bug 1472690 ?
<ubottu> bug 1472690 in mousepad (Ubuntu) "Mousepad crashes when setting tab width > 32" [Medium,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1472690
<Unit193> Noskcaj: http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2015/11/05/%23xubuntu-devel.html#t06:32
<Noskcaj> Unit193, I'll try to fix that in the next few days
<Unit193> Alrighty.
<ochosi> Noskcaj: you could also comment on the bugreport and reopen it, for clarity
<ranu> Long time no see :>
<ranu> nighty guys
<knome> hmm?
<ranu> Don't bother with me knome, I'm just excited to be on IRC again
<knome> okay..
<bluesabre> evening all
#xubuntu-devel 2015-11-11
<Noskcaj> ali1234, What's the command to regenerate the ui.h file in mousepad? It's been about 6 months since i've done anything linux
<ali1234> Noskcaj: i don't know, sorry
<Noskcaj> all good. Anyone?
<flocculant> bluesabre: bug 1515184
<ubottu> bug 1515184 in menulibre (Ubuntu) "Crash when selecting a category in a new entry" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1515184
<bluesabre> Noskcaj: need to build with --enable-maintainer-mode
<bluesabre> flocculant: you're finding some crazy bugs these days
<bluesabre> Noskcaj: so with that, you can build it and grab the update ui.h file to add to your patch
<flocculant> bluesabre: you told me too :p
<bluesabre> flocculant: and you're exceeding my expectations ;)
<flocculant> ha ha 
<flocculant> bluesabre: I can wait till March and report them all at once if you'd prefer :D
<bluesabre> D:
<flocculant> bluesabre: I'm sure this has just turned up - I've done that 'category' stuff before with no problem
<flocculant> also - don't know if you looked at the bug - but I confirmed it with daily in vm
<flocculant> bluesabre: mmm - actually thinking about it - this must be quite recent issue, pretty sure it was last week I was talking to someone in #xubuntu about how to do this
<flocculant> I'd have double checked I wasn't talking to the moon locally - which would have been xenial :)
<bluesabre> :)
<bluesabre> I'll take a look... it's probably just some crazy gtk thing
<flocculant> yea
<flocculant> anyway - tagged the bug appropriately :p
<flocculant> wish I knew how to debug things a bit more than just report them 
<bluesabre> flocculant: I'm not very good at debugging myself... just keep poking until I find the offending code
<flocculant> :)
<flocculant> one up on me then :p
<knome> again, it seems like we should have a team-only list for votes and such
<knome> flocculant, i pity you for having to figure out the voting...
<flocculant> knome: well - luckily there are only a handful of mail addresses I need to recognise :)
<knome> yep
<knome> flocculant, what's your take on the user poll for the slideshow now?
<flocculant> for 16? 
<knome> for 16 or anything else in the future
<flocculant> bit ambivalent now - not sure we'd gain anything much 
<knome> mhm
<knome> it's still on the blueprint
<flocculant> is it?
<knome> yep
<flocculant> just copied from postpones I guess
<knome> i suppose so :)
<knome> i'll drop it
<flocculant> *if* it ran for the whole of the next pre-LTS cycles there might be some use I suppose
<knome> yep
<knome> then again... meh
<flocculant> yea
<knome> we got pretty much replies from social media and ML's too
<flocculant> we could do a 'shall we bring back synaptic' one :D
<knome> lol
<knome> no point in that... we'd get all "yes" replies
<flocculant> ha ha ha 
<knome> "i vote for trump"
<flocculant> :D
<knome> ok, many things from the wiki are now moved to the contributor docs, including the strategy document with precursory formatting changes
<flocculant> cool 
<flocculant> though perhaps strategy stuff should be at the beginning ?
<flocculant> someone can deal with my mp now perhaps :)
 * dkessel tries poking bluesabre again to see if that will get him mousepad gtk3 builds in the -dev ppa :p
<flocculant> you didn't use the pointy stick with the anti-forget-me-not powder
<dkessel> if i knew what to do i would submit a MR or whatever is needed for that... *sigh*
<knome> flocculant, dunno, i was also thinking it could be the first appendix..
 * knome shrugs
<knome> dkessel, i can help you with that :)
<knome> flocculant, i'll look..
<dkessel> knome: that would be great
<knome> dkessel, you have time now or shall we schedule for later today?
<dkessel> i have time
<knome> great
<knome> let me merge flocculant's MP first..
<knome> flocculant, done
<knome> dkessel, where are you looking to do a MP?
<dkessel> knome: i am not :D  - i really just want the mousepad version from the x-dev ppa to be built against gtk3, just as the normal package is
<knome> aha
<knome> with that i can't help so much :P
<knome> except
<knome> bluesabre, POKE
<dkessel> i guess that might mean modifying some branch or recipe that gets built
<dkessel> heeh
<flocculant> knome: thanks :)
<knome> np
<flocculant> and yea perhaps appendix 
<knome> i guess it depends whether the contributor docs will be the primary place for the strategy document
<flocculant> right
<knome> i would say it should be the place, because then it's tracked in a branch
<knome> otoh, then the old cycle branches aren't updated with that
<knome> unless we specifically do that
<flocculant> I guess once it's all sorted out - then everyone who installs xubuntu will get a copy if it lives with normal docs
<flocculant> knome: otooh - old cycle branches wouldn't have been brought to life under whatever processes are *now* 
<knome> :)
<flocculant> so why would they need to refer to now :)
<knome> i don't know
<knome> to avoid confusion?
<knome> "hey, i found this strategy document in the 9.10 release that says..."
<flocculant> 'hey, I'd grab something up to date with a new supported install' 
<knome> yea
<knome> but people
<flocculant> unless docs can have a this was current at foo date ? 
<knome> sure can
<knome> at least in some wat
<flocculant> that's no different than old help files surely? 
<knome> *way
<knome> nope
<knome> not really
<flocculant> meetings is wrong btw "The chairing team leader is cycled based on the team name." should be "The chairing team leader is cycled based on random ordering of the team name."
<flocculant> :p
<knome> or maybe the order is wrong :P
<flocculant> :)
<flocculant> I shouldn't be chairing for ages :D
<flocculant> \o/ 
<flocculant> I'll give Unit193 the good news :p
<flocculant> I'll start from the top after I do the one in Dec 
<knome> the diff sucks, but http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-core-doc/xubuntu-docs/xenial/revision/479
<knome> dkessel, now you can read about doing merge proposals on the contributor docs :P
<dkessel> MPs are no news to me, knome :p
<knome> well i thought they were, so i was motivated to write about them
<knome> :P
<knome> but of course i figured out earlier they weren't
<knome> flocculant, one thing i've been wondering
<knome> flocculant, how do we specify the teams in the section titles
<knome> flocculant, i mean, currently, it feels a bit weird that we have "common" sections and team sections laid out like htis
<flocculant> knome: I kind of added mine to the end - then when I did the newer one, it needed to go before the other 2
<knome> yeah, sure
<flocculant> knome: possible to have sections? Like docs/qa/dev/web
<knome> i added some comments to help with the arranging of the pages
<flocculant> then chapters in the sections? 
<knome> flocculant, testing and bugs could be subsections for the qa section
<knome> but i'm not sure if that would be helpful in the long run
<flocculant> right - not sure either
<flocculant> though - it's not as if it's wiki and people can chuck stuff willy nilly 
<knome> we'll figure it out at some point...
<flocculant> yep
<flocculant> should put my name in credits I guess some time too
<ochosi> evening all
<knome> o hai ochosi 
<flocculant> evening ochosi 
<ochosi> hey flocculant 
<ochosi> wait, have you sent that email poll out yet or did i miss it?
<flocculant> ochosi: I did - yesterday :)
<ochosi> oh
<flocculant> :)
<ochosi> hmm, something's wrong with my inbox then
<flocculant> sent it to -devel
<flocculant> you'll find it eventually with votes from not-team :p
<ochosi> haha, dkessel mentions something and follows it up with "dont reply to this!" - awesome communication technique there dkessel ;)
<flocculant> :D
<flocculant> knome: is the docs contributor page supposed to look like that now? 
<flocculant> if they're supposed to link to something they don't 
<knome> flocculant, i've been lazy and have not dropped all the links :P
<flocculant> ok - that makes sense then :)
<knome> yep
<knome> besides, i'm not sure if we want to use the entities file for the website stuff yet
<flocculant> right - well, imo if that page doesn't do more than what it does now - seems rather pointless as it stands is all :)
<knome> i'll get it fixed before we push it online
<flocculant> ok - just thought I would ask now :)
<knome> sure, np :)
<bluesabre> dkessel: yes, I have the tab open, and was going to fix that... will do it tonight :D'
<flocculant> evening bluesabre :)
<bluesabre> heya flocculant 
<ochosi> hey bluesabre 
<bluesabre> hi ochosi 
<flocculant> bluesabre ochosi - while you're both here a question ... 
<flocculant> have xfpm set to ask what I want to do when I press power button
<flocculant> when screen is locked - press power button - shuts down
<flocculant> is that expected? 
<ochosi> well, when the screen is locked i'm not sure whether xfpm is still the one receiving those calls
<ochosi> cause you're at the greeter level
<ochosi> you could test that by pushing the button before you log in (after starting up your laptop)
<flocculant> ok - so if it IS a bug - not xfpm? 
<ochosi> my guess is that it's systemd's default policy for the button
<flocculant> ochosi: mmm - this expected to be different to desktop? 
<flocculant> in the meantime - trying ^^
<flocculant> brb
<ochosi> nah, i guess it'd be the same on a desktop
<bluesabre> flocculant: yes, I agree with ochosi there... at the login screen xfpm no longer has control
<ochosi> but i haven't used one for ages..
<flocculant> cool - thanks both
<bluesabre> gotta run again, bbabl
<flocculant> and yes that is what I see if I press at login
<flocculant> ochosi: so to pass this along - if it IS a bug - lightlocker ?
<ochosi> not really, no
<ochosi> it's just the fact that systemd doesn't offer a nice way to be configured
<flocculant> ok - I'll tell them systemd :)
<ochosi> and in order to change this not only on a user-level but on a system level the power manager would have to become root/superuse
<ochosi> and only the system-level applies at the greeter level
<flocculant> probably not actually a bug at all 
<ochosi> so yeah, i think you won't have much luck with reporting this against systemd
<ochosi> it's a design decision for them that it's not really configurable
<flocculant> ok - it's not me so much as someone on the forums
<knome> theoretically... if we want to stop using the wiki, where do we track meetings, meeting agendas and meeting minutes?
<flocculant> theoretically I would say either trello or leave some things alone :p
<knome> trello isn't good or archiving meeting minutes :P
<flocculant> best go with B then :p
<knome> maybe we need our own wiki for *some* things
<knome> i guess if we had the team mailing list...
<knome> :PP
<flocculant> except
<knome> or xubuntu-annonucements or sth
<knome> with no typos
<flocculant> the meetings, minutes and agendas aren't ours - we just hold the reins
<knome> true
<ochosi> i guess if the meeting stuff remains where it is and we move the rest i'd still be ok with it
<knome> i haven't seen many non-team people adding agenda items though
<flocculant> knome: maybe not - that's not the point imnsho :D
<knome> agreed
<knome> just wondering - theoretically, as you probably all can imagine
<flocculant> I like us moving things like contrib/process/etc to where it's going 
 * knome takes the mouse cursor away from the "delete" button on the meetings page
 * flocculant reaches over and gently helps move the mouse cursor ... 
<knome> lol
<flocculant> bluesabre ochosi - thanks - passed that along the chain now :)
<ochosi> np
<flocculant> slickyma1ter knome: might revisit the offline help page now I'm not seeing <para> everywhere I look
<flocculant> there's one sentence already annoying me ... 
<knome> flocculant, looking forwards for the MP ;)
<flocculant> :)
<flocculant> it'll certainly be a lot simpler this time ;)
<knome> probably so
 * flocculant hates that pdf pages never correspond to what it thinks 
<knome> heh
 * flocculant didn't know about bzr pull 
<flocculant> and was always pleased to have a fastish connection 
<knome> ...congrats
<flocculant> :)
<flocculant> right - well goodnight those still with us 
<knome> nighty flocculant 
#xubuntu-devel 2015-11-12
<bluesabre> back
<bluesabre> nighty flocculant 
<bluesabre> knome: poke
<bluesabre> dkessel: updated the packaging for the mousepad recipe, now we just need a new commit on http://git.xfce.org/apps/mousepad/ to get new builds
<dkessel> thanks bluesabre :)
<flocculant> Unit193: do you use (or have) the apt-offline doobiwotsit? could you look at the updates to the docs page I have done for that :)
<flocculant> https://code.launchpad.net/~flocculant/xubuntu-docs/updates/+merge/277329
<knome> a wild ochosi appears
<astraljava> Hahah
<Unit193> flocculant: I briefly looked over it.
<knome> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/DeveloperDocumentation
<knome> :]
<flocculant> Unit193: cheers - just wanted to make sure it makes sense 
<Unit193> ...the apt-offline doobiwotsit... didn't. :P
<flocculant> :p
<flocculant> bluesabre: so parole not playing films using clutter here 
<Noskcaj> bluesabre, Should just running ./configure --enable-maintainer-mode work?
<Noskcaj> (for mousepad)
<ochosi> evening folks
<flocculant> ochosi: evening :)
<knome> hello ochosi 
<ochosi> so what's clickin?
<flocculant> most of my joints 
<flocculant> ochosi: so you found the poll thread yesterday - don't forget to do more than read it :D
<ochosi> yeah, for some reason i dont receive ML mails anymore
<ochosi> no idea what's up with that
<ochosi> had no time to check it out last night
<ochosi> but will now
<flocculant> that's odd then 
<ochosi> yeah, no clue, haven't changed anything in the subscription or the email filters
<Unit193> Spam.
<Unit193> Or knome removed you to mess with you.
<ochosi> both is possible or even probable
<knome> it's the baby who is (literally) messing with ochosi 
<flocculant> s/with/on
<knome> ;)
<ochosi> gee, did anyone warn those guys on the ML in terms of spamming us with their "votes"?
<Unit193> Did you read te first one?
<knome> ochosi, didn't you see my reply to the thread?
<flocculant> ochosi: I was silly enough to think that a centre justified line in bold would suffice
<ochosi> flocculant: sorry, my emails are plaintext ;)
<flocculant> :)
<flocculant> but it was still line #1 I hope :D
<knome> flocculant, who reads the first line?
<ochosi> right right, i'm still catching up on the thread and i started from the bottom here (for some odd reason): https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/xubuntu-devel/2015-November/thread.html
<Unit193> I used a text client, it was very clear too. :P
<knome> well i guess it's become a habit for you to work with the bottom
<flocculant> ha ha 
<ochosi> knome: yeah yeah, i'm just waiting for you... ;)
<knome> i know
<knome> but i'll use this non-overlapping time as well as i can
<ochosi> haha
<ochosi> can't argue with that
<knome> just tell me if i'm going too far
<ochosi> sure thing :)
<knome> and i'll tell your baby she can stop crying because you have picked up the crybaby hat of the family
<ochosi> :D
<knome> you weren't expecting THAT
<ochosi> i wasn't expecting THAT
<flocculant> ha ha ha 
<ochosi> :)
<ochosi> ok, more serious note
<ochosi> anyone up for fosdem in february?
<ochosi> i know it's early to ask
<flocculant> not me 
<ochosi> but then again, asking later might even make less sense
<knome> silly brussels
<ochosi> we still have time to gather some funding
<knome> the fosdem website says 30/31 january
<knome> so i don't think anybody is going there in february
<ochosi> ok ok
<ochosi> so that then
<knome> i don't think so, but if enough people from the team will attend, and i will be desperate enough avoiding the poop cannons, maybe
<Unit193> Not me either.
<knome> also, i wonder why "beer" is mentioned as the first thing int he fosdem header.
<ochosi> because brussels - belgium - beer?
<knome> :P
<Unit193> Well considering we're talking about beer, vomit, and poop in here I suppose saying I'm rebuilding the xubuntu-core isos isn't that bad of spam. :P
<ochosi> meh, Unit193 is sooo on-topic
<flocculant> :)
<Unit193> Nono, it's spam, 'community' stuff and all.
<knome> the reason why we talk about poop and vomit is to make Unit193 more comfortable in this room
<ochosi> flocculant: ever heard anything from that jenkins testing initiative again?
<flocculant> ochosi: it's not dead 
<ochosi> oh, that's comforting news
<flocculant> it does work mostly for ubuntu, there's issues getting it to work on flavours from the last update
<flocculant> the guy who's been working on it I've not seen for a few weeks
<Unit193> Also, everyone vote for which IRCC member looks best?
<flocculant> ochosi: oh hang on 
<flocculant> <flocculant> balloons: at this stage I would like to at least see that the image boots to a desktop 
<flocculant> balloons> right right. They were keen to see the same thing
<flocculant> that was during one of the uos sessions apparently 
<ochosi> ok
<flocculant> I do at least check that images boot properly once a day 
<ochosi> wow, that's definitely something we should automate
<knome> ++
<flocculant> that's what they're trying to do 
<flocculant> and just checking the manifest file size gives a clue that it's not gone horribly wrong too 
<flocculant> doesn't obviously prove it boots - but if the file is too small then it's not going to :)
<ochosi> i haven't ever gotten into this myself, but wasn't there that ubuntu autopilot python app that helped with app-testing?
 * ochosi feels a bit silly for asking this
<flocculant> ochosi: pretty sure that's what I'm talking about
<Unit193> Thought so, but only GTK3.
<flocculant> ochosi: there are 2 basic types - iso and packages
<flocculant> packages hates gtk2
<ochosi> thing is, in my current dayjob i work with jenkins a lot
<flocculant> which is why we never got far 
<ochosi> right
<ochosi> i wonder why it doesn't work with gtk2
<flocculant> ochosi: I promise never to tell balloons
<ochosi> flocculant: thank you.
<flocculant> ochosi: it doesn't introspect properly - whatever that means 
<ochosi> oh that
<ochosi> right, i guess there's nothing we can do about that, other than port xfce to gtk3
<Unit193> Which'll be a sad day.
<flocculant> and frankly - I don't mind that we don't get package testing - it's never going to be what people can do 
<flocculant> so - if we can kinda forget images as a daily issue I'd be happier
<ochosi> Unit193: why? just keep using 4.12
<ochosi> not sure, routine tests with apps can all be automated
<ochosi> from what i learned, the LO guys even do some automated click-testing
<ochosi> that works with *any* toolkit that accepts mouse-input
<flocculant> ochosi: yes but we're finding more stuff with not routine use :)
<ochosi> right, but then you can throw out all testcases ;)
<ochosi> unless you decide to only write weird non-standard ones
<knome> ochosi, i believe we could do that, but then it'd rely on mouse position instead of knowing that we are activating the right element
<flocculant> ok - but then we have to hope people report things 
<ochosi> knome: if it's running in a fixed resolution automated environment that
<ochosi> 's no problem
<knome> don't we already have to hope for that even if they are running the predefined tests?
<ochosi> flocculant: don't we have to hope that either way? :)
<flocculant> knome: of course
<flocculant> ochosi: ^^
<ochosi> ;)
<knome> ochosi, yeah, that's not the main problem - but what if some popup doesn't appear, or for some reason, the UI is off?
<ochosi> knome: the UI is off..?
<flocculant> but - at least we're asking people to test something AND saying report to the tracker anyway 
<ochosi> knome: if a popup doesn't appear, that's a bug, so the click-test found one. yay.
<flocculant> not that we're getting much 
<knome> ochosi, an icon in a button is too large -> puts off all other buttons by X pixels?
<knome> ochosi, and sure, it's finding bugs then, but meh
<ochosi> knome: sounds like a bug to me!
<knome> ochosi, if you ever change the UI, then you have to rewrite the test
<knome> ochosi, but not if the test relies on gtk element ids
<knome> and i guess figuring out if something went wrong is harder with the non-id stuff too
<ochosi> well yes, i only mentioned the click tests as a last resort for classic "humans-only" things
<ochosi> as an example of: even this can be automated
<ochosi> not in the sense of: let's do all tests like that!
<knome> sure
<knome> besides, automated tests aren't exploratory either, they only test predefined scenarios too
<knome> and most of the time start with a clean state
<flocculant> which is why upgrade tests work 
<knome> :)
<ochosi> exactly
<ochosi> so they only are supposed to work in well-defined environments
<flocculant> test should really say - add this bunch of random ppa's to the mix, make sure you have a prop graphics driver in use, fiddle with as many things as you can - then test it :D
<flocculant> anyway - I'm off - night all :)
<ochosi> night flocculant!
<knome> krytarik, do we even need the language name list?
<knome> krytarik, i don't think it's used by docbook internally, and we don't really refer to those entities manually either
<krytarik> Yep, that's the list of native language names.
<krytarik> For the translation links, that is.
<knome> ok
<knome> that looks like a good list
<krytarik> \o/
<krytarik> (For all other: http://paste.openstack.org/show/Zv2HRFVBuHzAEfhCtvjD/ )
<krytarik> * others
<knome> when can we expect to see a MP?
<krytarik> Probably best to merge the current one first, and then I'll incorporate all the recent changes into mine.
<krytarik> That is, I'll be trying to include them, and when further changes occur while I'm doing it, that'd be bad. :P
<knome> ;)
<krytarik> Btw, there are minor fixes for validation too, but not sure I should specifically list it. :P
<knome> krytarik, where's the "current stuff"?
<knome> not seeing in https://code.launchpad.net/xubuntu-docs/+activereviews
<krytarik> Well, I see one there :P - https://code.launchpad.net/~flocculant/xubuntu-docs/updates/+merge/277329
<knome> me too
<krytarik> I mean, you could merge it after mine too, but then you'd need to take care of the changed ENTITY's at the top of the XMLs, I guess.
<krytarik> Because it'd probably revert it.
<knome> true
<Unit193> Hrm, well is my old pre-bump all covered in the contributor docs now?  Can I rm it?
<knome> Unit193, bump to new version numbers?
<Unit193> Well not as explictly, so I guess I'll hold on to it.
<Unit193> And does the contributor docs really need to be !English?  It's not like we'd really be able to work with any contributors that don't speak English, and the mailing lists require it.
<knome> i've been thinking that too
<Unit193> knome: domain/pre-bump.html
<krytarik> Well, I think it's nice to offer the option to translate it anyway.
<knome> Unit193, sigh, stop sending cryptic messages :P
<krytarik> +1
<Unit193> I'm trying to not spam that stupid ubuntulog.
<Unit193> krytarik: Sure, but at the cost of having people put effort into translating it..
<knome> one thing to consider now that XSD is there is if we want ANY translations for that
<knome> it's sameish with licenses
<knome> krytarik, ^ note that, we don't want to translate the CC license, so there's some reason to keep shipped-docs
<krytarik> knome: I solved that though.
<knome> aha.
<knome> what about the strategy document?
<knome> how do you solve that?
<krytarik> Also, people forgot to update that file.
<knome> maybe ;)
<krytarik> If it's a separate XML, sure.
<knome> i agree that life would be easier with that
<knome> of course it's a separate xml file
<krytarik> Then \o/
<knome> so how do you solve that?
<knome> a file that tells which files NOT to translate?
<krytarik> Nope, just move it to 'libs-common'.
 * knome facepalms
<knome> i don't think that can be the answer for everything
<knome> it's NOT a common thing
<krytarik> Well, we could move anywhere you want - just not leave it in the main docs dir.
<knome> well...
<knome> i'd actually rather have it there :]
<krytarik> Oh, and yes, it's a common thing - between the C docs and the translations.
<krytarik> Just not the most appropriate place maybe.
<krytarik> "libs...", that is.
<knome> well, yeah, kind of...
<knome> i would be happy with a file that listed files excluded from translations
<knome> of course that's not ideal either, but hey...
<knome> that file could be in libs-common
<knome> i don't think we will have the problem that there's a file with the same name in both docs and we want to translate the other but not the other :P
<krytarik> And for the CC license, also shared between the two doc variants.
<knome> that's fine where it is
<krytarik> For XMLs specific to only *one* of the doc variants, I guess both the easiest and most transparent way to do it would be to create a subdir within the main docs dir for them.
<krytarik> That way we don't have to maintain and parse a lists file for them.
<knome> meh
<knome> :)
<krytarik> * list
<knome> i wonder if there could be any way to add a docbook attribute or something that told the script creating the pot file to not include strings in that file
<krytarik> That'd be one for *you* then, yep. :P
<krytarik> Either way, that doesn't affect my current changes.
<knome> well i don't think there is a way
<knome> xml2po is very simple
<knome> krytarik, flocculant's merge is done, ready to take your MP
<krytarik> Ugh. :D
<knome> ;)=
<krytarik> I'll work on it tomorrow.
<krytarik> Because I'll have to merge quite some files manually.
<knome> :)
#xubuntu-devel 2015-11-13
<flocculant> pdf is broken in docs
<knome> flocculant, elaborate?
<flocculant> it didn't build http://pastebin.com/fvhpze2h 
<knome> weird, i just pulled the latest state and it built for me
<flocculant> mmm
<flocculant> I pulled when I said it was broken
<flocculant> No revisions or tags to pull.
<knome> are you on xenial or something other weird stuff? :P
<flocculant> :)
<Unit193> bzr status
<flocculant> of course
<flocculant> Unit193: status just tells me the things it did build 
<knome> https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1194369
<ubottu> bugzilla.redhat.com bug 1194369 in fop "Exception in thread "main" java.lang.NoSuchMethodError: org.apache.xmlgraphics.xmp.Metadata.mergeInto(Lorg/apache/xmlgraphics/xmp/Metadata;)V" [Unspecified,Closed: rawhide]
<flocculant> knome: just fyi - it built fine yesterday
<flocculant> suppose I should have a look see what I've updated
<knome> maybe some syncs from debian landed?
<flocculant> but later, biab - dodging showers here :)
<knome> yep, looks like libxmlgraphics-commons-java is 2.0
<knome> but fop is 1.1
<knome> tbe, it has been 1.1 since trusty
<knome> :P
<Unit193> Debian has newer.
<knome> yep
<Unit193> http://metadata.ftp-master.debian.org/changelogs/main/f/fop/unstable_changelog
<knome> there's some ubuntu patches, so it isn't synced autoamtically
<knome> somebody want to poke people on #ubuntu-devel?
<knome> Unit193?
<Unit193> knome: https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/fop/1:2.0+dfsg-4
<knome> aha
<knome> good then
<Unit193> (Except, -proposed and ftbfs, but yeah otherwise good.)  Also, I don't see any patches in Ubuntu...
<knome> i assumed there was something because the package version was XubuntuX
<knome> but i guess it's something else silly then
<knome> but good that somebody is actually working on it, even if ftbfs and propsoed
<Unit193> That's delta, not patches.
<Unit193> Build-dep transitioned.
 * knome shrugs
<flocculant> thanks for looking :)
<flocculant> I've no need for pdf's - but thought I would mention it was broken here, just in case 
<sidi-unbounced> d
<sidi-unbounced> hi people
<sidi-unbounced> Does Xubuntu have an easy-to-use API for displaying permanent notifications?
<sidi-unbounced> that libindicator thingy?
<sidi-unbounced> i want my sandbox daemon to have a way to display running sandboxes and notify of sandboxed apps performing specific actions
<ochosi> yeah, if you're thinking xubuntu then yes, you could write an indicator
<flocculant> O_O
<ochosi> beware that that'll only work in ubuntu, few distros really support it and the indicator maintainers said they aren't interested in making indicators work in other distros
<flocculant> an ochosi ... 
<ochosi> the better way may be to write a small panel plugin
<sidi-unbounced> ochosi, the study im doing is on Xub so that's fine by me for now :-)
<sidi-unbounced> right, that too
<ochosi> not sure whether a panel plugin is actually more work...
<ochosi> in both you have to live with the restrictions of gtk ;)
<sidi-unbounced> i have a C daemon written in very low-level C code, without even a glib linked to it right now
<sidi-unbounced> it's setuid, too :D
<sidi-unbounced> dont wanna put up too much code into that. Panel plugins are loaded by the panel dynamically, right?
<sidi-unbounced> and they have an init function that's called and run as a panel thread afterwards?
<sidi-unbounced> actually i was thinking of using that persistent thing only for a history of notifications
<sidi-unbounced> and using Xfwm to display primary controls for sandboxed apps
<sidi-unbounced> sidi, ping ping
<sidi-unbounced> it seems my bouncer is back.
<krytarik> knome: I think a manual sync of the recent translations to the docs branch before renaming the user docs source dir would be wise? Also, notice the .pot file will be renamed too, of course.
<krytarik> Also, should I try and exempt the SD from the translation too?
<krytarik> (In the subdir way, that is.)
<krytarik> Or, similar to the CC one, we could move it to the doc-specific "libs" directory.
<krytarik> I'd prefer that.
<krytarik> knome: Just noticed, you might need to fix the placement of the branch icon here :P - https://unit193.net/xubuntu/docs/contributor-docs/C/howto.html#bzr-push  Also, might be nice to spell out "Bazaar" for once in the title at least. And I'd expand the title of the page a bit again, to more than just "How to..."  And for the XSD one, I'd drop the "The" at the start.
<krytarik> And I think we should add 'bzr mv' there - it's really important for the resulting diff, as I've just noticed recently! :P
<flocculant> words and words and words :p
<krytarik> Yeah, sorry about that. :|
<krytarik> :D
<flocculant> pffft
<flocculant> why worry :)
<krytarik> Right!
<flocculant> or rather - nothing TOO worry about :)
<flocculant> knome: but if you do do anything - can you fix the with with in QA team release responsibilities :)
<krytarik> Hah - plus missing period.
<krytarik> Also, I'd make the whole "Release Note" the link.
<krytarik> Similarly for other links in that page.
<krytarik> * on
<krytarik> Like "Manual Testcases".
<krytarik> "bug report to the testcase project" - "bug report" should link to "../+filebug", rather than "project".
<flocculant> not that concerned about that tbh 
<flocculant> imo these pages shouldn't need handholding 
<krytarik> Basically, I want the anchor text indicate what to expect of the target.
<flocculant> well you know what I want got :p
<krytarik> Yep, "just click the link!" :D
<flocculant> things like that really don't bother me much :D
<flocculant> that said if you're that concerned - do an MP as long as you don't change words without me knowing :)
<flocculant> remember to do the with with though :p
<krytarik> lol
<flocculant> which does bring up a point seriously
<krytarik> Yeah, I have a huge MP upcoming anyway. :P
<flocculant> taking QA as an example
<flocculant> if changes to QA pages are subject to an MP - then the QA lead should ack them
<flocculant> and docs- doc team
<flocculant> etc
<krytarik> Yeah, agree.
<krytarik> Just add as additional reviewer then.
<flocculant> not really an issue when it's all new and the people concerned are filling the hole
<flocculant> perhaps should be in there somewhere as a point
<flocculant> krytarik: yea 
<krytarik> In Processes probably then.
<flocculant> considering there wasn't anything at all a week or two ago it's all pretty much \o/ if you ask me
<flocculant> yea - that would probably work
<krytarik> Indeed!
<krytarik> So many "Xubuntu" there that seem unneeded! :P
<flocculant> probably 
<flocculant> in fact unless it's pointing to somewhere linky - not sure it's needed ever
<flocculant> except the strategy doc 
<krytarik> Also, noticed while in the index it says "Subteam documentation", QA has three chapters in there. :P
<flocculant> yep
<flocculant> greedy as you like
<krytarik> Not sure the title of the SD needs to have it either though.
<flocculant> needs to have what? 
<krytarik> "Xubuntu".
<flocculant> it doesn't 
<flocculant> at least not here 
<flocculant> says Part I. Subteam documentation here
<Unit193> There's only one pot file?
<krytarik> Unit193: One per doc variant.
<Unit193> Ah good, OK.
<flocculant> I thought pot files were translation things? 
<krytarik> Yep - it'd seem Unit193 is referring to something reg. the user docs one I said earlier.
<krytarik> Unit193: And yes, I only touched that one.
<flocculant> so - forgive me if I'm looking at this wrong - should there be any pot file for the cont docs? 
<krytarik> There is.
<flocculant> right - but why? 
<krytarik> knome put it there first! :P
<flocculant> not saying he didn't :)
<Unit193> flocculant: I wondered too.
<flocculant> I vaguely saw Unit193 and knome talking about cont docs and languages - with the result being it should be english
<flocculant> not sure when now - days merging :)
<krytarik> No one concluded it shouldn't be offered for translation at all though - only exempt the SD.
<krytarik> I'd certainly not promote it as much as the user docs though.
<flocculant> yea - but if cont docs are in say swahili - tends to imply if someone comes here talking swahili someone will answer them :)
<flocculant> should be in en imo - if for no other reason than it implies that all the cont stuff is en
<flocculant> anyway - not overly bothered till someone tries to talk to me ;)
<krytarik> Heh.
<Unit193> Well infinity popped up, but that's not the one we're looking for, IIRC.
<flocculant> for? 
<krytarik> Core MPs.
<krytarik> Unit193: Also, they're going to force you to update them anyway! :P
<flocculant> he'd do I'm sure
<Unit193> I'm not sure.
<Unit193> Honestly, I'd say have them review first, then fix if NACK and update if ACK.
<krytarik> Yeah.
<flocculant> Unit193: iirc he was involved with the discussion before slangasek
<flocculant> and yea agree with that 
<flocculant> cos it's easy for me to say :)
<Unit193> flocculant: You remember well.  The second is the one that wanted changes/did more of a review.
<Unit193> Also, I don't plan to update it for review. :P
<flocculant> yea - well I did ping slangasek a while back but 
<Unit193> Yep, thanks for that.
<flocculant> Unit193: I assume you mean - let them ack the way we want to do it - and then update it if they ack 
<Unit193> Rebase/make it nice, yeah.
<flocculant> k - just like to know where we are :)
<Unit193> Seemingly in a rowboat in the middle of a great lake without a paddle.
<flocculant> lol
<flocculant> hope it's a big boat if we're all in it with you :D
<flocculant> got an LO update earlier - seems I had some other icon set too 
<knome> huhu
<flocculant> hey ho knomio 
<knome> o/
<Unit193> Are bugcontrol members ever useful?
<Unit193> flocculant: In order to try and get you back on my good side, new xfdashboard is already in the extras PPA!
<flocculant> :)
<flocculant> I'm always on my good side ... 
<flocculant> I did see the mail an hour or so ago about that
<flocculant> why's it in ppa twice though? 
<Unit193> Still building.
<flocculant> aah - ok :)
<flocculant> Unit193: oh yea  - I did use the xfce sound plugin for a while - but I had two sound notifications
<flocculant> even though I had removed other one and rebooted
<Unit193> indicator-sound was purged?
<flocculant> will check that properly tomorrow again 
<flocculant> pretty sure I did 
<Unit193> And, ochosi or someone wants results on that, I'm just the packager.
<flocculant> at the time - the 2 notifications was annoying enough to just stop even looking
<flocculant> I'll check it out again tomorrow
<Unit193> Understandable, I'm not testing it either. :3
<flocculant> :)
<Unit193> I should though.
<flocculant> ppa says newer version available - that always confuses me 
<Unit193> Fixed. :P
<flocculant> :)
<flocculant> I'll check it out tomorrow :)
<flocculant> anyone need to know anything about xfdashboard? 
<flocculant> I only wish it wasn't enormously full screen :p
<Unit193> I do!  Is it going into Ubuntu?  That's the "development" branch we've got in the PPA, I'd presume we'd want stable?
<flocculant> not as far as I know 
<flocculant> I guess full screen would be ok if you had a whole bunch of things open :)
<Unit193> OK, well enough users in extras to keep it going (heck, a team member likes it, that's good enough), so that's fine anyway.
<flocculant> mmm
<flocculant> actually it's bigger than full screen 
<flocculant> if I whack the mouse over to the right it sees all the right pane
<flocculant> and just upgraded it 
<flocculant> unless it's always been like that and I'd not noticed ... 
#xubuntu-devel 2015-11-14
<bluesabre> evening all
<Unit193> Wow, howdy.
<bluesabre> hey Unit193 
<bluesabre> hows it going?
<Unit193> bluesabre: Not too shabby I think...
<flocculant> TheMaster: meh - all confused about the pulse plugin now :p
<flocculant> anyway bug 1516217 and https://bugzilla.xfce.org/show_bug.cgi?id=12313 which I can't currently link 
<ubottu> bugzilla.xfce.org bug 12313 in General "Two sound notifications" [Normal,New]
<ubottu> bug 1516217 in xfce4-pulseaudio-plugin (Ubuntu) "Shows two notifications" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1516217
<flocculant> not registered on launchpad and I don't want to break it by adding it wrong 
<bluesabre> flocculant: now registered on launchpad, https://launchpad.net/xfce4-pulseaudio-plugin
<flocculant> bluesabre: cheers :)
<flocculant> done the linking now 
<bluesabre> good good
<flocculant> bluesabre: bit confused with parole? I thought that we *made* it work with clutter last cycle ?
<bluesabre> flocculant: yeah, haven't taken a look yet
<bluesabre> does it work with non-clutter? does totem work?
<flocculant> works with non-clutter - forgot all about totem - will do that now :)
<bluesabre> thanks
<flocculant> bluesabre: works in totem 
<bluesabre> welp, im done
<bluesabre> >.<
<flocculant> I knew I should have said the repos were down ... 
<bluesabre> :D
<flocculant> that said - no idea what totem is using - the menu's are gnome ones ... 
<bluesabre> flocculant: if you have a camera, can you install gir1.2-cheese-3.0 cheese and give mugshot's camera functionality a go?  that's also using clutter
<flocculant> have gir1 already - would that be enough? 
<flocculant> good lord - cheese apparently needs nautilus ... 
<bluesabre> you might not need cheese
<flocculant> mugshot just crashed
<bluesabre> was cheating to pull any other cheesey dependencies
<bluesabre> niiiiice
<bluesabre> will work on all that tomorrow then
<flocculant> white box from the camera
<bluesabre> college homecoming today, cooking breakfast now
<bluesabre> k
<bluesabre> something funny going on there
<flocculant> have a good day then :)
<bluesabre> probably more clutter breakage
<flocculant> ok
 * bluesabre tries to use the new and "supported", blows up in his face
<flocculant> :)
<flocculant> bluesabre: you want me to run ubuntu-bug mugshot from xenial? 
<bluesabre> flocculant: sure, that'd be fine
<flocculant> okey doke
<flocculant> bug 1516237
<ubottu> bug 1516237 in mugshot (Ubuntu) "Mugshot crashes when trying to capture image" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1516237
<flocculant> bbl 
<ra2b> hi 
#xubuntu-devel 2015-11-15
<dkessel> flocculant: if you change the font size in mousepad, does it change?
<flocculant> dkessel: yes it does 
<dkessel> hmm. not for me
<flocculant> dkessel: have the ppa version here
<dkessel> flocculant: me too. but i am trying other things now anyway
<flocculant> added a test to the image tests - just tests that image boots
<flocculant> I rarely get time to check apps in livesession - doing that all day in a real one
<flocculant> temp fix waiting for jenkins/image tests to actually happen
#xubuntu-devel 2016-11-14
<flocculant> https://launchpad.net/~xubuntu-dev/+archive/ubuntu/xubuntu-staging
<flocculant> something is up there - the series drop down is empty ...
<Unit193> flocculant: In case you were actually looking for an answer.  Because the PPA is empty.
<Unit193> bluesabre: Would we consider setting GDK_CORE_DEVICE_EVENTS=1 or is that another in the box of "Unit193's oddities"?
<bluesabre> Unit193, is that the fix for the first scroll event getting eaten?
<Unit193> bluesabre: Workaround, yes.
<bluesabre> Probably won't get fixed, so we'll consider it a fix
<bluesabre> Unit193, I think it's valuable for us to have
<Unit193> It certainly won't get fixed, according to the bug report.  And cool.  Testing it on yakkety to see if there's any adverse affects.
<bluesabre> Unit193, awesome, thanks!
#xubuntu-devel 2016-11-15
-SwissBot:#xubuntu-devel- ::xubuntu-artwork:: [greybird] r486 Make Gtk3 notebook tabs the size of Gtk2... (by Simon SteinbeiÃ)
<Unit193> \o/
<tracker3> hello
<flocculant> Unit193: was kinda, but guessed in the end
#xubuntu-devel 2016-11-16
-SwissBot:#xubuntu-devel- ::xubuntu-artwork:: [greybird] r487 Decrease tab height in the terminal, gedit etc (fixes #158)... (by Simon SteinbeiÃ)
<Unit193> https://packages.qa.debian.org/x/xfce4-panel/news/20161116T213426Z.html - https://packages.qa.debian.org/l/lightdm-gtk-greeter/news/20161116T213336Z.html (Specifically: 01_at-spi added, fix accessibility.) - https://packages.qa.debian.org/e/exo/news/20161116T210401Z.html
#xubuntu-devel 2016-11-17
<brazilianx> How do I become a Xubuntu developer?
<brazilianx> ??/
#xubuntu-devel 2016-11-19
<Zeioth> I really like the spash screen of Xubuntu 16.10, good job!
#xubuntu-devel 2017-11-13
<knome> !team | email sent about next community meeting; this friday at 22UTC here; wiki page and team calendar updated as well.
<ubottu> email sent about next community meeting; this friday at 22UTC here; wiki page and team calendar updated as well.: team is akxwi-dave, bluesabre, dkessel, flocculant, jjfrv8, knome, krytarik, ochosi, pleia2, slickymaster and Unit193
<Unit193> blue!
<knome> all council members should be able to attend
<Unit193> Yeah I'm not going to "be" there.
<Unit193> Bah.
<knome> sorry :(
<bluesabre> Thanks knome
<knome> np
<slickymasterWork> noted knome 
<Unit193> bluesabre: Since I couldn't wait any longer: https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/xfce4-statusnotifier-plugin/0.2.1-0ubuntu1
<Unit193> (Now watch ninetls release a new version tomorrow. :P )
<bluesabre> Unit193: good work
#xubuntu-devel 2017-11-14
<ninetls> Unit193: nothing to release
<ninetls> Unit193: what about xkb plugin?
<ninetls> it's still 0.7.1 in ubuntu!
<bluesabre> Unit193: where's your package tracker page at again?
<Unit193> ninetls: I did actually package an update to that, it's somewhere.
<Unit193> bluesabre: https://sigma.unit193.net/~unit193/xfce412.html
<Unit193> 'Debian' includes experimental.
<Unit193> ninetls: FYI, pushed the updates to Debian VCS.
<bluesabre> Unit193: thanks
<Unit193> bluesabre: Hiii.
<bluesabre> Unit193: hiya
<Unit193> bluesabre: Whatcha doin'?
<bluesabre> Unit193: probably going to do some ppa review or something
<Unit193> Anything I'm supposed to be doing and haven't?
<bluesabre> Unit193: Don't suppose you could add artful to the package tracker as well so its easier to track differences?
<Unit193> bluesabre: Ubuntu/artful?  Hmm.
<bluesabre> :)
<Unit193> Well not precisely easily.
<bluesabre> xenially though?
<Unit193> It's so annoying that 'precise' was used, I'm glad it's dead.
<bluesabre> :D
<bluesabre> But yeah, if it's a no go, that's fine too
<bluesabre> I have a scraper for packages.u that I can use to get what I need to know
#xubuntu-devel 2017-11-15
<Unit193> Oh dear.
<Unit193> I have one that uses Launchpad.
<bluesabre> I'm a terrible human :3
<Unit193> I'm not entirely sure I'm better. :D
<Unit193> BTW, I keep backports alive in unit193/xfce :P
<bluesabre> hmmm
<Unit193> ...Using a script to keep track of my own uploading.
<bluesabre> My goal is to keep the majority of our packageset in sync here https://launchpad.net/~xubuntu-dev/+archive/ubuntu/staging with bionic
<Unit193> Backporting all bionic to artful?
<Unit193> IOW, exactly what I'm doing personally?
<bluesabre> Seeeeeeems soooooo
<bluesabre> And not all bionic, but the important bits
<bluesabre> so QA has can run Artful + 1 PPA
<Unit193> So, I can do what I'm doing for my own there too.
<bluesabre> Yes, please do :D
<Unit193> I'm pretty sure QA wants to run Bionic and use as little PPAs as possible.
<Unit193> Difference with mine is that I want mine in pristine shape, so no libxfce4ui uploads or other baselibraries.
<bluesabre> Right, but that's the path of least resistance for folks that want to have a stable base
<hggdh> Unit193: just sent a pt_BR user here, on some untranslated menu entries on 17.10
<Unit193> hggdh: Depends, if they're upstream Xfce then it matters.  If it's just random other packages, nothing we can actually do.
<hggdh> Unit193: I understand. They seem to be mostly gnome-*, and the user (FurretUber, just joined) prolly can explain better
<FurretUber> The menu entries at /usr/share/applications are there, and the pt_BR option is present
<FurretUber> But they are still showing the entries in English
<FurretUber> The language-pack-gnome-pt is installed
 * hggdh goes walk the dogs
<Unit193> (I doubt I'll be of much help, I'm en_US exclusively.
<Unit193> )
<FurretUber> Using Deja-Dup as a example: it has in the .desktop file: Comment[pt_BR]=Altere suas configuraÃ§Ãµes de cÃ³pia de seguranÃ§a
<FurretUber> But it uses Comment=Change your backup settings
<FurretUber> instead
<FurretUber> Hi, I have found the cause of the bug of the .desktop files
<FurretUber> xfce4-panel requires a specific order of the .desktop entries. So if the " Name[pt_BR]= " entry comes before the " Name= " entry, the [pt_BR] is ignored
<Unit193> Wow, that's nice.  I wonder if that's fixed in the development releases.
<FurretUber> I will report it in Launchpad
<Unit193> https://bugzilla.xfce.org/show_bug.cgi?id=13979
<ubottu> bugzilla.xfce.org bug 13979 in Applications Menu "Some application names are not localized in applications menu" [Normal,New]
<Unit193> FurretUber: â
<FurretUber> This is the problem I'm having
<FurretUber> Should I report it to Launchpad? I thought it was not known
<Unit193> Nah, what we should do is poke ochosi.
<FurretUber> I've reconfigured all the problematic .desktop files, so the options without a specific locale are the first ones on the .desktop files. I am going to sleep, good night
<flocculant> Unit193: this qa runs bionic with whatever happens to be kicking around - what this qa wants is something easy for 'testers' to do if they can't run bionic as daily - eg artful with 1 ppa if possible
<Unit193> Aha.
<flocculant> just trying to get as much of the 'new' tested as possible either on bionic or artful
<flocculant> too much thinking this early :p
<Unit193> I wonder what I put in the PPA. ;3
<flocculant> :)
<Unit193> (I mean in terms of artie.)
<akxwi-dave> Well this QA will be running desktop with AA + PPA and his lappy with BB..   :-) oh and daily iso with VBox
<bluesabre> flocculant: https://launchpad.net/~xubuntu-dev/+archive/ubuntu/staging is synced up
<flocculant> bluesabre: awesome - so we can point people at artful plus that and they're at similar state to 'me' ?
<Unit193> ochosi: Did you see your friendly ping here?
<ochosi> i did
<ochosi> just haven't had time to understand the bug/report yet
<ochosi> that's probably garcon though, not the panel
<ochosi> should be also visible in xfdesktop's application menu with gtk3/garcon0.6
<ochosi> Unit193: commented on the upstream report you linked
<ochosi> will continue to track it there
<ochosi> Unit193: as you can see i gently forwarded the issue ;)
<bluesabre> flocculant: correct
<Unit193> ochosi: Well I hadn't seen it yet. :3
#xubuntu-devel 2017-11-16
<flocculant> bluesabre: cheers - thought that was the case, just wanted to be sure :)
<bluesabre> evening all
<Unit193> bluesabre!
<bluesabre> Unit193!?
<Unit193> I didn't do nothing.
<Unit193> bluesabre: Oh, meeting in 5
<bluesabre> huh wha
<Unit193> Hahah! :D
#xubuntu-devel 2017-11-17
<bluesabre> Added some updates to https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Meetings, feel free to add more for tomorrow's meeting
<bluesabre> I think flocculant's chairing it, not sure
<flocculant> 0_0
<flocculant> I'd assumed knome was - he set it up
<ochosi> hope i can really make it to the meeting tonight, have some unplanned stuff coming up...
<ochosi> otherwise i have two more inputs (more thunar custom actions by default, switch to better alt-tab mode in xfwm4) that i can also add to the dev blueprint
<ochosi> also, now that ubuntu is switching to "suru" as new icon theme, i'm wondering if we should consider switching too (maybe to a less orange version of it, but nevertheless). would make xubuntu probably feel more "at home" visually in the ubuntu crowd
<ochosi> for thos of you who don't know it: https://snwh.org/suru
<ochosi> knome: ^
<ochosi> bluesabre: prepped a branch for you for the tabwin change we talked about recently
<ochosi> https://code.launchpad.net/~ochosi/xubuntu-default-settings/xfwm4-tabwin-no-previews/+merge/333869
<bluesabre> ochosi: I'm a fan of the suru theme, but I'm not convinced we can get the same coverage we have now with elementary-xfce
<ochosi> yeah, probably not
<ochosi> at least not immediately
<bluesabre> oh
<bluesabre> good morning!
<bluesabre> :D
<ochosi> that's why it could also be a post-LTS topic
<ochosi> it's lunchtime here, but good morning to you too ;)
<bluesabre> sounds good to me
<bluesabre> ochosi: now that firefox 57 is out, was wondering if you might have time to freshen up greybird's firefox support
<bluesabre> it doesn't look bad... just flat and boring
<ochosi> oh, what can i freshen up?
<ochosi> i dunno if i really have influence with plain gtk+ on firefox
<ochosi> my guess is that would have to be a userstyle
<ochosi> but maybe i'm wrong
<ochosi> what are you looking for in particular?
<bluesabre> Firefox's theme engine is using gtk3 today, so I think there might be more leverage than in the past
<ochosi> do you have a theme that looks particularly good with the new fF?
 * ochosi upgrades to v57
<ochosi> wow, that looks different indeed
<ochosi> sucks that the icons seem to be hardcoded and not theme-dependent anymore
<ochosi> (back, fw, home, refresh)
<bluesabre> https://i.imgur.com/trCjmvm.png maybe a slightly different color or gradient for the area with the address bar and active tab
<bluesabre> Yeah
<ochosi> also the tabs...
<bluesabre> It looks awesome with a two-tone theme like numix, looking for a good single color theme to see if I can show what I mean
<ochosi> yeah, a gradient for the toolbar would be helpful
<ochosi> looks a little bland
<ochosi> but the tabs are really a bit annoying...
<bluesabre> yeah
<bluesabre> Just thought I'd get that idea out there
<ochosi> yeah
<bluesabre> Make it a little nicer to look at :)
<ochosi> good idea, just need to see what's feasible
<ochosi> the button hover is also completely not themed anymore
<ochosi> so hmpf, whatever gtk3 support means there
<ochosi> looks more like they render everything themselves and dont give a rats ass anymore about how the gtk theme looks
<bluesabre> :D
<ochosi> looks ok with adwaita
<ochosi> cause the style is similar
<ochosi> but with the rest...
<knome> meh, i prefer elementary to suru :)
<knome> ochosi, want me to add the icon issue to agenda with your nick?
<bluesabre> time to get ready for work, see you guys later (hopefully) at the meeting
<knome> hf
<bluesabre> ochosi: thanks for being interested in tweaking greybird+firefox :D
-SwissBot:#xubuntu-devel- ::xubuntu-default-settings:: [xfwm4-tabwin-no-previews] r645 Disable window previews in Xfwm4's alt-tab dialog... (by Simon SteinbeiÃ)
<knome> i should probably upgrade to 17.10
<knome> but maybe tomorrow
<ochosi> k
<ochosi> yeah, that would be nice knome 
<ochosi> maybe with "Investigate..."
<knome> done
<knome> i'm not at all a fan of the curvy/circly icons
<knome> it kind of works on small mobile devices when you want to highlight the area that is clickable
<knome> but on desktop it feels a bit too busy to fill all that empty space with colored blobs ;)
<knome> Unit193, did you want any discussion to be had about that new installer?
<ochosi> gotta take care of the little one, bbl
<akxwi-dave> to me Suru looks just like the icons I have on my Huawei P9 phone
<slickymasterWork> I'm with knome, regarding the change from elementary to Suru
<slickymasterWork> uru icons look way similar to some (most) of Android icons
<slickymasterWork> +S
<Unit193> knome: What new isntaller?  subiquity?  Thought that was more for servers.
<Unit193> And I'm with knome, not really a fan of the new icon theme.
<flocculant> new installer - I missed that :p
<genii> heh, isn'tstaller
<Unit193> flocculant: Server installer, to replace debian-installer.
<flocculant> oh
<ochosi> i'll very likely be there, but maybea little late
<knome> ok
<knome> !team | Community meeting in 40 minutes!
<ubottu> Community meeting in 40 minutes!: team is akxwi-dave, bluesabre, dkessel, flocculant, jjfrv8, knome, krytarik, ochosi, pleia2, slickymaster and Unit193
<flocculant> knome: ygm I hope
<knome> yup
<bluesabre> evening all
<flocculant> hi bluesabre :)
<bluesabre> hi flocculant 
<flocculant> bluesabre: re parole issues - you likely to look at those during this cycle? 
<bluesabre> flocculant: yup, and other things
<flocculant> okey doke - didn't want to bang on about things and have you facepalming at me behind the interwebs :D
<flocculant> the inoperative play button when it starts up is a bit annoying ;)
<bluesabre> :)
<flocculant> :)
<flocculant> 2 main issues with it as far as I'm concerned, whether you think they're bugs is a different thing :D
<flocculant> that ^^ and not being able to point mouse at 'some time during the play time' and it to move to then
 * flocculant mostly dislikes saying things are a bit odd when he knows we've not got hundreds of people eagerly waiting for issues to fix ;)
<flocculant> bluesabre: if I had a 'visual' thing re the pa plugin - where would you want it reporting to?
<bluesabre> flocculant: bugzilla please
<flocculant> okey doke
<flocculant> xfce 14016 then
<ubottu> bugzilla.xfce.org bug 14016 in General "Output section looks odd without icon" [Normal,New] https://bugzilla.xfce.org/show_bug.cgi?id=14016
<flocculant> ochosi with his visual hat on might have an opinion there too :p
<bluesabre> flocculant: I agree that it looks better with an icon
<bluesabre> removed it since ochosi asked me to
<flocculant> yup
<bluesabre> very tempted to add it back :D
<flocculant> vaguely remember the discussions on that
<flocculant> bluesabre might be pleased to know that I actually use the plugin
 * bluesabre is very pleased
<flocculant> \o/
<knome> #startmeeting Xubuntu community meeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Fri Nov 17 22:00:04 2017 UTC.  The chair is knome. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
<knome> !chair bluesabre ochosi 
<ubottu> knome: I am only a bot, please don't think I'm intelligent :)
<knome> err
<knome> #chair bluesabre ochosi 
<meetingology> Current chairs: bluesabre knome ochosi
<flocculant> or
<bluesabre> hi everyone
<akxwi-dave> hi
<knome> who's here for the meeting?
<flocculant> evening peeps
<slickymaster> o/
<knome> ochosi said he'd be here, just a bit late
<knome> pleia2, want to join the fun?
<pleia2> ohi
<slickymaster> not sure if I'll manage to make through the all meeting
<knome> kryyyyteeeen
<krytarik> Yes!
<flocculant> hi pleia2 :)
<knome> slickymaster, just don't empty the whole rum bottle..
<knome> wow, dkessel's idle time is 67 days
<flocculant> but don't let the guests do that either
<slickymaster> thing is, I also want to have some before it disappears
<flocculant> that :p
<knome> #topic Open action items
<slickymaster> yep
<knome> there are none
<bluesabre> they're all done :)
<knome> #topic Updates and announcements
<knome> bluesabre, staging PPA
<knome> want to open that up or just announce?
<bluesabre> Fine to just announce for now, I think there is/was a mail going out to the ML with more details
<knome> oki
<flocculant> is
<knome> #info QA Staging PPA is now available at https://launchpad.net/~xubuntu-dev/+archive/ubuntu/staging
<knome> #info PulseAudio Plugin and Status Notifier Plugin are now included in Bionic, replacing indicator-application, indicator-sound, and xfce4-volumed 
<knome> #info Next milestone, November 30: Feature Definition Freeze 
<knome> #topic Discussion
<knome> #subtopic Replace GNOME components with MATE components (bluesabre) 
<knome> bluesabre, the floor is yours
<bluesabre> Alrighty, so a bit of rationale
<bluesabre> Our current GNOME components are patched in Ubuntu to replace the headerbars with normal window manager controls and menus
<bluesabre> That requires manpower to maintain, and Ubuntu is likely to just drop the patches going forward
<bluesabre> MATE is a DE more similar to Xfce, window manager and menus included
<flocculant> question
<bluesabre> Yes?
<flocculant> is the dropping (if) down to moving from unity to gnome and not needing the patches?
<bluesabre> Yes, since Unity needed the menus to work correctly with the global menus
<flocculant> ok - cool, just wasn't sure
<flocculant> sorry for interruption :)
<bluesabre> The components I've listed, evince -> atril, file-roller -> engrampa, gnome-calculator -> mate-calc, are basically drop in replacements
<knome> headerbar == CSD?
<bluesabre> yes
<knome> right, so do we have CSD in other apps
<knome> like some apps bluesabre wrote
<bluesabre> Yes, where we have more control to make sure they work well in xfce
<knome> right
<bluesabre> gnome-calculator has a menu that seems to come and go when running in xfce
<bluesabre> Currently, it does not show for me
<bluesabre> But it would normally show in GNOME shell
<knome> do you think this transition will happen during 18.04?
<slickymaster> same here, bluesabre 
<flocculant> :)
<bluesabre> knome, I think it will
<bluesabre> And if we are willing to move now, it will probably help their decision
<knome> also, you say the replacements are drop in... do they share the same codebase?
<flocculant> I'd hope if it does - then it happens soon
<bluesabre> MATE components are basically the GNOME 2 variants, ported to GTK3 with bug fixes
<bluesabre> So, probably 90% same
<knome> right, so instead of using the GNOME3 components that likely get a bit more attention, we're moving to GNOME2 components that are maintained by mate people?
<knome> i'm asking this partly because i want to know what the future for these components looks like
<bluesabre> MATE is pretty popular and has strong development
<knome> eg. does mate have the manpower to maintain them and are they willing to do it
<flocculant> flexiondotorg: you about?
<bluesabre> It could easily be argued they have more eyes on them than xfce
<flexiondotorg> o/
<bluesabre> knome: I feel confident they will be maintained for the foreseeable future
<flocculant> flexiondotorg will likely be able to answer that for us :)
<bluesabre> flexiondotorg: we're thinking of using some MATE components instead of GNOME, thoughts?
<knome> flexiondotorg, or in other words, how many bottles of rum are you willing to donate to slickymaster if we do?
<flexiondotorg> Ok. Applications or components of the DE? 
<flocculant> apps
<flexiondotorg> Ok
<bluesabre> just
<bluesabre> evince -> atril, file-roller -> engrampa, gnome-calculator -> mate-calc
<bluesabre> for now
<flexiondotorg> Right. 
 * slickymaster waits
<flocculant> flexiondotorg: the question was
<flocculant> < knome> eg. does mate have the manpower to maintain them and are they willing to do it
<flexiondotorg> Interesting. Because just today we've been discussing how we might decouple the apps from the core DE release schedule. 
<flexiondotorg> So the apps can iterate at their own pace. 
<flexiondotorg> We have a small but dedicated team. We've been maintaining them for years and intend to continue to do so. 
<flexiondotorg> Might need to review how deep the deps go on some of the apps. 
<knome> that'd be nice
<flexiondotorg> Wouldn't want you pulling in stuff you don't require. 
<knome> sounds great
<flexiondotorg> mate-calc is fine. 
<bluesabre> Those three seem pretty minimal, might need to recommends to include theme alternatives
<bluesabre> Pretty open to packaging patches?
<flexiondotorg> I'll check the apps you're interested in and report back in a bit. 
<bluesabre> awesome, thanks flexiondotorg 
<flocculant> flexiondotorg: you are a gent :)
<flexiondotorg> Yes, more than happy to collaborate and help you guys out. 
<flocculant> thanks 
<knome> i think this is "big enough" that we need a vote just for the sake of it...
<knome> so let's start it here
<flexiondotorg> Ubuntu Kylin is based on MATE now too. So we've done this before. 
<knome> team is 11, so we need 6 votes at minimum
<knome> #vote OK to replace GNOME components with MATE counterparts?
<meetingology> Please vote on: OK to replace GNOME components with MATE counterparts?
<meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (for private voting, private message me with 'vote +1/-1/+0 #channelname)
<bluesabre> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from bluesabre
<knome> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from knome
<krytarik> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from krytarik
<flocculant> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from flocculant
<akxwi-dave> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from akxwi-dave
 * flocculant wakes up pleia2 slickymaster and krytarik 
<knome> slickymaster, you still waiting for the rum offer or ready to vote?
<slickymaster> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from slickymaster
<slickymaster> just having a sip
<flocculant> :)
<knome> pleia2, want to cast a vote?
<pleia2> +0
<meetingology> +0 received from pleia2
<flocculant> sorry krytarik - was looking for kryten ... 
<krytarik> lol
<knome> :)
<knome> #endvote
<meetingology> Voting ended on: OK to replace GNOME components with MATE counterparts?
<meetingology> Votes for:6 Votes against:0 Abstentions:1
<meetingology> Motion carried
<knome> #info Carrying on with the transition to MATE components
<bluesabre> That step was painless
<knome> yes
<flocculant> can we have a 'if it's March when it happens - QA can say no' vote ...
<knome> "but you only won by one vote, lulz"
<bluesabre> flocculant: planning to make it happen asap
<flocculant> :)
<flocculant> bluesabre: I'd assumed so :)
<knome> #action bluesabre to change seed for GNOME/MATE apps transition before FDF
<meetingology> ACTION: bluesabre to change seed for GNOME/MATE apps transition before FDF
<flocculant> tongue was firmly in cheek ;)
<knome> hopping over power manager for now since ochosi is away
<knome> #subtopic Core on tracker? (flocculant) 
<bluesabre> flexiondotorg: looking forward to working with you more :)
<flocculant> oh sigh
<knome> flocculant, ta-dah!
<bluesabre> dahhhhhhhhhh
<flocculant> so this is one simple question - then a not simple question ...
<flocculant> first then 
<flexiondotorg> So I was about to work on some Ubuntu MATE, but I take a look at the apps you're interested in instead and provide some initial feedback.
<flocculant> do we add 'Core' to the tracker for Unit193, slickymaster and me to add a result 2 or 3 times? 
<knome> flexiondotorg, great, can you send it to our mailing list? :)
<flocculant> flexiondotorg: thanks :)
<flexiondotorg> Given you guys are fmailiar with GTK, would you be up for offering patches and such upstream to address issue you encounter?
<bluesabre> flexiondotorg: definitely
 * flocculant hangs on
<bluesabre> We like it when things work well
<knome> flexiondotorg, just go on... :)
<knome> err, flocculant 
<knome> silly fl's
<flocculant> :D
 * flocculant waits a bit longer 
<bluesabre> flocculant: I think we should hold on including on the tracker until we can get core patches in
<flocculant> secondly
<bluesabre> I'm planning on reviewing them next week, and them nudging people a bunch
<flocculant> what's the score with a real core - that we can get on tracker that builds daily? 
<flocculant> that's the real crux of the matter imo
<knome> i'm still +1 for the core/base thing, and i want to give all support for it
<flocculant> iirc
<slickymaster> same here
<knome> bluesabre, ^ so please let me know if you need help with it
<bluesabre> That's definitely related
<flocculant> this is at least the second LTS we've had this discussion
<bluesabre> yup
<bluesabre> Going to make these not TODO this cycle
<knome> one question is how much Unit193 is still interested in getting this forward?
<bluesabre> [xubuntu-dev] xubuntu-core: Refresh debian-cd patches: TODO
<bluesabre> [xubuntu-dev] xubuntu-core: Refresh livecd-rootfs patches: TODO
<bluesabre> [xubuntu-dev] xubuntu-core: Refresh ubuntu-cdimage patches: TODO
<bluesabre> [ubuntu-cdimage] xubuntu-core: Review and merge patches: BLOCKED
<slickymaster> :(
<knome> i mean, i understand this is frustrating and all and if he's lost the interest
<bluesabre> knome: I'm going to try to spearhead this a bit, Unit193 is probably (rightfully) burned out on this
<knome> bluesabre, yes, that's a good idea, though the other issue is that soon it will all be on you
<flocculant> knome: I think it's entirely possivlt that he's considerably fed up with the whole thing - the doing it 'officially' thing that is
<ochosi> o/
<flocculant> s/possible
<knome> hello ochosi 
<ochosi> sry i'm late
<flocculant> np
<ochosi> i'll try to catch up
<knome> flocculant, yes, indeed, which is why i'm bringing up this question
<flocculant> ochosi: catch up just before the meeting started ...
<flocculant> knome: 
<bluesabre> knome: once the patches are in, there should be minimal maintenance required after the fact... hopefully I can return it to krytarik  and Unit193 at that point
<knome> and in case we do get progressing, is he willing to pick it back up then
<knome> sure
<flocculant> last time 'we' spoke he was less politely pissed off 
<flocculant> not wanting to put words in someone else's tongue
<knome> i'm aware
<bluesabre> flocculant: yeah, no need :)
<flocculant> and I completely agree with it tbh
<flexiondotorg> So mate-calc. From a deps point of view no issues.
<flocculant> frankly I think we've just been given the runaround by canonical people
<flexiondotorg> However, the .desktop file Name is "MATE Calculator". 
<flocculant> we're perhaps too damn polite
<knome> i don't know how CC even works nowadays, but maybe we should just contact them if nothing happens
 * flocculant winds his neck in a bit 
<knome> and get on with it
<flexiondotorg> I've not discussed this with the MATE team, but I've been wanting to drop the MATE prefixes on some of the app names. 
<flexiondotorg> Perhaps now is the time :-)
<knome> from what i gathered, one of the issues is "core" vs. "base"
<knome> though i've told them we'll go with "base" if that's really the only issue...
<flocculant> flexiondotorg turns out to be really useful tonight :D
<bluesabre> flexiondotorg: that shouldn't be an issue, but cool if that were to happen
<knome> flexiondotorg, +1 for dropping MATE prefixes, me like
<bluesabre> flocculant: we're seeing the other benefit of using MATE bits, we're a lot closer to the MATE folks in general
<flexiondotorg> knome: I'm on the CC. We're all new this time round. If you have questions feel free to ask.
<flocculant> can we give flexiondotorg a brief resume of the core thing - as he's got his CC hat on
<knome> probably better leave that to outside the meeting
<bluesabre> yeah
<flocculant> why?
<flocculant> time?
<knome> that too
<flexiondotorg> I remember the "core thing" I prepared patches for Xubuntu and Ubuntu MATE ages ago.
<flocculant> ok - let's shelve it for a bit, but not a very long bit :D
<knome> flocculant, indeed not
<flocculant> the discussion
<slickymaster> yep
<knome> anything else on core for the meeting?
<flocculant> I'll hold fire on tracker for the moment then
<knome> and oh - yes
<bluesabre> Just gotta refresh patches and then take another stab at it
<flexiondotorg> Pluma looks all fine. No issues IMO.
<knome> i don't mind if core is on tracker nevertheless
<knome> flexiondotorg, pluma? :P
<bluesabre> flexiondotorg: yeah, we won't be needing pluma though :)
<flocculant> knome: I don't want to confuse it
<flexiondotorg> The text editor from MATE.
<ochosi> k, if i may add a small comment to the s/gnome/mate/ vote (even though the motion has already passed), i would look at each component separately and check if there are any important features we'd be missing
<flocculant> last cycle - it ended up being rebuilt somehow
<ochosi> it's not like the gnome components haven't been developed since gtk3 was started
<knome> flocculant, i understand
<flexiondotorg> Oh, Pluma wasn't on the list :-)
<knome> ochosi, right, but tbh what features would there be for those three apps that we needed really?
<flocculant> :)
<bluesabre> ochosi: indeed, but the apps we're interested in aren't super feature full... calc, pdf, and archive
<bluesabre> but noted :)
<knome> yes, if their basic functions work, they are perfect
<knome> maybe do a mail about it when they've landed
<knome> to run some checking
<bluesabre> yup
<knome> or even do it before if people are willing
<bluesabre> Some config and shortcuts to be updated
<ochosi> dunno, with evince i'd be taking a closer look (at least to me that's a VIA - very important app)
<flocculant> we can do a testing call when they land
<knome> but it... reads pdf? :D
<bluesabre> ochosi: could I have you test any special features there you depend on?
<flexiondotorg> So Engrampa (archive manager) should be fine.
<flexiondotorg> Pulls in extension library for Caja (file manager) but that is only 18Kb.
<knome> OMZG
<knome> :P
<knome> does it *really* need it though?
<flocculant> bluesabre: could we land them in stages? 
<knome> i think if we want "stages", then just first tell people to install them from the repo
<knome> and if nothing is wrong for a while, change the seed
<flocculant> or would you rather just jfdi?
<flexiondotorg> knome: For Xubuntu no. So we could have an or in the Recommends: to reference an something from XFCE :-)
<bluesabre> flocculant: we could, what sort of staging schedule would you want?
<slickymaster> flocculant, akxwi-dave and can each pick one and test them
<bluesabre> I'm more inclined to just do it all at once so I don't go missing for too long :D
<flocculant> knome: then we don't know if what people have locally are affecting them?
<flexiondotorg> Would be a good idea to install these one at a time in a clean Xubuntu VM and see what gets pulled in.
<knome> meh :)
<flocculant> bluesabre: jfdi then :)
<akxwi-dave> lol
<ochosi> flexiondotorg: i think for xfce you don't need any recommends for engrampa (weird gerontophile name btw ;))
<flocculant> I can do that in a vm tomorrow
<knome> the change in seed is a small one, it's fast to revert too
<bluesabre> flexiondotorg: Yeah, I'll check it out and see if anything surprising comes in
<bluesabre> or flocculant :)
<flocculant> :D
<knome> anything surprising or flocculant?
<bluesabre> flocculant is surprising
<knome> i would definitely consider flocculant in my app surprising
<flocculant> both ... 
<knome> anyway
<flocculant> ha ha ha 
<ochosi> engrampa also pulls in caja-common
<knome> can we move on from the core (clearly) discussion?
<ochosi> not just libcaja-extension1
<flocculant> yep
<ochosi> plus mate-icon-theme...
<bluesabre> knome: go for it
<knome> #subtopic Xfce Power Manager 1.6.x (bluesabre, ochosi) 
<bluesabre> ochosi: yeah, we'd suggest an alt there
<bluesabre> xfpm!
<bluesabre> :D
<ochosi> mkay
<ochosi> so i've been cleaning up bugzilla quite a bit for 1.6 lately
<knome> bluesabre, ochosi: btw, you're both chairs too... just saying
<ochosi> plus ali has started to help out
<flexiondotorg> So Atril (doc viewer) and Engrampa (archive manager) both pull in libcaja-extension1
<ochosi> i've been using 1.6 for a long time already and i don't see any 1.6/gtk3 specific breakage
<bluesabre> ochosi: yeah, I've been using it forever
<ochosi> there are no functional differences, apart from a few 1.6 features
<flexiondotorg> That is the 18Kb library for exposing their plugins to Caja.
<ochosi> e.g. panel-plugin properties dialog
<bluesabre> But we've not uploaded it... so I wonder if there is any reason to be wary of 1.6 over 1.4?
<flexiondotorg> bluesabre: Are you interested in Eye of MATE (image viewer)?
<knome> flexiondotorg, nope
<flexiondotorg> Cool.
<ochosi> the difference was the UPower version initially
<bluesabre> flexiondotorg: nope, we have a good option there already
<ochosi> and the symbolic icons, but both is a win imo
<slickymaster> ristretto
<bluesabre> ochosi: I agree
<ochosi> one thing that ppl on desktop systems will notice however is the battery-missing icon that is currently showing
<knome> bluesabre, ochosi: do you need any feedback from others? :D
<flocculant> hard for me to test xfpm - desktop(s) > mains works ... tick
<ochosi> but that is something we can fix during this cycle
<knome> or could you have discussed this in a non-meeting environment
<ochosi> i've already looked a little
<flexiondotorg> Well, other than the name of MATE Calculator I see no reason why mate-calc, engrampa and artil can't be seeded in Xubuntu.
<ochosi> no, i just wanted to inform everyone of the status quo from my pov
<flocculant> ochosi: don't see the icon 
<bluesabre> knome: I added it since it was the only thing on our "include maybe" list and I wanted to know if anybody had reasons to avoid it
<flexiondotorg> Just a bit of history on Atril, forked from Evince.
<ochosi> flocculant: then you likely use 1.4?
<flocculant> 1.6.0+git-0~2234~ubu 
<flocculant> says dpkg
<flexiondotorg> Some years a GSoC student added ePub support to Atril. It was not a good job :-(
<ochosi> flocculant: ah, ok. so what icon do you see?
<flexiondotorg> We struggled with it ever since, basically getting it stable and working.
 * ochosi doesn't have a desktop to test this...
<flexiondotorg> We have debated dropping ePub support. 
<flocculant> ochosi: none - just looking to see if I lost it 
<knome> flexiondotorg, no worries from our side if you drop it, i'd say
<flexiondotorg> But any help to strighten out the ePub implementation would be welcome.
<flocculant> ochosi: ok - on desktoo I see battery with an X
<knome> bluesabre, ochosi: you fancy e-books?
<flexiondotorg> knome: OK, good to know that is not a deal breaker.
<ochosi> knome: not really
<knome> nudge nudge, wink wink
<flocculant> I do e-books, not on the pc though :D
<ochosi> flocculant: yeah, that is what i would like to improve and the only "regression"
<bluesabre> knome: I fancy them, on my nook
<bluesabre> Could test it though
<flexiondotorg> I discuss the mate-calc name change with the team in the coming days.
<knome> well i think they already know it's bad ;)
<bluesabre> :D
<bluesabre> I'll avoid it then
<bluesabre> ;')
<knome> so i was kind of wondering if you were fancying a repair work
<knome> ochosi, i agree on the icon issue on desktop; that needs to be sorted out
<flocculant> ochosi: if nothing an AC instead of a battery would make more sense - though really, an icon showing up if not AC would be btter UI guess
<bluesabre> knome, flexiondotorg, I might be willing to take a look at some point
<flexiondotorg> Right, I think that is all can do right now.
<knome> :)
<flexiondotorg> Ping me if you need anything :-)
<bluesabre> flexiondotorg: thanks for being so responsive and helpful :)
<knome> flexiondotorg, we will, thanks a bunch!
<flexiondotorg> bluesabre: My pleasure.
<flocculant> flexiondotorg: thanks for looking at that :)
<slickymaster> thanks flexiondotorg 
<knome> so... what's the thing with xfpm?
<knome> do we want a vote on it?
<knome> or just go forward?
<ochosi> knome, flocculant: the difference between 1.4 and 1.6 in that respect is that we now rely on upower to supply the icon (which is nice because it means all icon themes work properly with xfpm), and battery-missing is what upower reports. doesn't mean we can't fix that though
<flocculant> mmm
<knome> ochosi, i know, i've discussed it with you :)
<bluesabre> knome, ochosi, I think we should plan to include it... bug reports to 1.6 are probably going to get more attention than 1.4
<flocculant> I mean logically enough I know the battery is missing - I'd be concerned it it wasn't :D
<knome> in the worst case we can include a more neutral icon for battery-missing
<ochosi> yeah
<knome> for our icon theme... whatever that might be... :P
<ochosi> i would also say we should include that
<ochosi> that being 1.6
<knome> ack it with QA :P
<ochosi> there are also no 1.6 specific bug reports if i'm honest on bugzilla
<knome> then i'll give my +1 with my council hat
<bluesabre> flocculant: say "go for it"
<ochosi> plus i don't plan on doing 1.4 maintenance
<flocculant> I can't in all honestly do that bluesabre 
<bluesabre> :D
<flocculant> today is a jfdi day
<bluesabre> that's fair
<bluesabre> I respect that
<flocculant> :)
<knome> ok, so
<akxwi-dave> :-)
<ochosi> so a vote or do we just move on?
<flocculant> I do check bugzilla as well as lp
<knome> #action bluesabre and ochosi to get on with it and include xfpm 1.6
<meetingology> ACTION: bluesabre and ochosi to get on with it and include xfpm 1.6
<knome> anything else?
<flocculant> a point
<knome> .
<knome> there
<ochosi> that's a dot.
<knome> 1
<knome> ^ that's a point in the eurovision song contest
<knome> from australia.
<slickymaster> buh
<flocculant> if QA find that we're seeing a whole slew of issues - can we revert 
<bluesabre> flocculant: we can
<ochosi> yup
<ochosi> i would say that would be a very logical consequence
<ochosi> of any of the changes
<knome> well i think if it fails we should hop to xfpm 1.8...
<knome> i hope it's at least WIP at that point...
<knome> ;)=
<flocculant> I'm just remembering my passowrd issue with non-US and the time it took to be listened to ...
<knome> so anything else?
<flocculant> for xfpm?
<slickymaster> nothing here
<bluesabre> ochosi: will help with maint there as needed
<knome> for xfpm
<flocculant> not from me
<knome> #subtopic Investigate replacing elementary-xfce with Suru (ochosi) 
<bluesabre> knome: think we're done with the xfpm chat, this conversation is what I hoped for
<bluesabre> :D
<flocculant> ochosi bluesabre - if you want me to git stuff to check AC on xfpm - shout
<knome> from the discussion in here and -offtopic today, i'd say this is not going to happen...
<ochosi> right, that was just an idea i had when i read that suru was going to be the next ubuntu icon theme
<ochosi> flocculant: will definitely do! thanks!
<flocculant> np
<knome> the basic gist is "it's too android-like"
<knome> from several people
<ochosi> yeah, i read that too
<flocculant> ochosi: seen the 'hub' stuff? 
<ochosi> i really just wanted to discuss it
<flocculant> https://community.ubuntu.com/t/icon-theme-discussions/1925
<knome> i appreciate trying to blend in with ubuntu more, but i think that's a bit drastic :)
<ochosi> the idea was mostly to make us more ubuntu-ish again
<ochosi> but i don't mind if we stick with the tried and true
<bluesabre> I think we should consider it (or something else) post-18.04... not enough time in 1 cycle to get the themes (lo included) synced up
 * slickymaster kind of likes the fact that we <ren't ochosi 
<ochosi> knome: it would have been a blue-colored version anyway
<ochosi> bluesabre: ouch, libreoffice... that would also need some love btw...
<flocculant> I'm pretty much an ellipsish sqircle sort of guy - dont mind what we do
<knome> ochosi, that doesn't really help with the android-likeyness :)
<bluesabre> ochosi: yeah, was planning to send some bug reports your way soon there
<flocculant> but it might be useful to check out the hub icon chats
<knome> flocculant, ack
<bluesabre> yes
<bluesabre> definitely some important chats happening on the community hub
<knome> so... anything else from this?
<knome> on
<knome> this
<knome> too
<flocculant> that snhw peep is there talking
<flocculant> snwh
<ochosi> snwh is a good designer, i like his gtk+ themes and also most of his icon themes
<bluesabre> yeah, cool guy, good stuff
<ochosi> and he's contributing to elementary also a lot
<ochosi> so we benefit from his doings either way ;)
<flocculant> wasn't sure if you'd noticed the hub chat - so thought I'd point you there
<knome> i don't hate the stuff, it's just fine, but i don't think it's the fit for xubuntu
<flocculant> shrug
<flexiondotorg> Just had a thought, will Ubuntu Studio be following your lead with regard to app selection?
<ochosi> i guess i could use some help with elementary-xfce too, it needs more upstream-pulling sometimes (if anyone here wants to help out)
<knome> flexiondotorg, that's a good question you need to ask the US devs
<flocculant> knome: on the other hand - xubuntu 6 years ago looked like old
<flocculant> so - progress is good sometimes :)
<bluesabre> flexiondotorg: possibly, they tend to stay pretty well synced to our changes
<knome> flocculant, sure
<knome> i'm doing a quick switch...
<knome> #subtopic Xubuntu desktop for 18.04
<knome> let's talk this a bit more broadly
<bluesabre> sure
<flexiondotorg> knome: OK, will do when you're futher along with this. I wondered if they just based on your platform decisions.
<knome> flexiondotorg, they often have, but it's not automatic
<flexiondotorg> OK
<flocculant> flexiondotorg: up to now - they take xubuntu and add some stuff
<knome> i guess one of the bigger questions is our panel
<knome> do we want to keep it where it is?
<knome> and how it is?
<ochosi> dunno, i haven't heard that many complaints about it
<knome> except there was just that thread in the ML
<knome> not really a complaint as is, but a suggestion to move it to the bottom
<slickymaster> just the one in the m/l
<ochosi> every now and then there is such a thread tbh
<flocculant> oh panel
<flocculant> well
<knome> yes, but that kind of suggests something
<knome> that it comes up
<ochosi> and it probably would also be there if the panel were at the bottom
<flocculant> that's where mine is :D
<knome> how many here have the panel at the top?
<ochosi> o/
<bluesabre> o/
<krytarik> o/
<slickymaster> o/
<flocculant> ochosi: indeed - we'd get some move it to the top people
<knome> haha, ok
<flocculant> woohoo  
<knome> fair enough then
<flocculant> - odd one out :p
<bluesabre> :D
<slickymaster> :)
<knome> i have the panel at the bottom too
<flocculant> you 4 would complain :D
<knome> the next question is if we want to keep it as is
<flocculant> nope
<ochosi> i think we should advertise xfpanel-switch more
<ochosi> (in any case)
<slickymaster> agree ochosi 
<ochosi> or improve it
<knome> one suggestion from me is... make it fully transparent
<flocculant> one from me is stop expanding the thing
<ochosi> that'll likely suck for a11y
<knome> not if the wallpaper is designed for that
<flocculant> ochosi: ack
<slickymaster> mine is fully transparent, knome 
<knome> and hey, we can do that
<ochosi> knome: wallpaper sure, but icons are not under our control
<flocculant> slickymaster: do you needf a11y?
<bluesabre> knome: but we won't know if we succeeded until the day before UIF ;)
<knome> bluesabre, hah!
<ochosi> LOL
<knome> spikey
<ochosi> well played, sean
<flocculant> I've had a transparent panel - and had 2 or 3 things not be
<knome> just a thought
<knome> we could play with the transparency without making it completely transparent too
<slickymaster> yep
<knome> another thought is to make it not 100%
<knome> and center it
<knome> i use the panel this way, and there's one reason for this
<knome> when i have maximized windows, i still always have two corners to right-click on the desktop
<knome> for me that opens the apps menu
<ochosi> you like that it's width changes all the time..?
 * flocculant says knome's mouse in middle of screen most
<knome> i know that's not the default setting
<ochosi> for apps menu i use the kb shortcut
<knome> ochosi, it doesn't
<knome> ochosi, only that one pixel, but it does it even if it's 100% wide and that bug was fixed :P
<knome> i'd also say it looks a bit more modern if the panel isn't 100%
<knome> again - just a thought for you to think about
<bluesabre> I'm generally not a fan of a non-100% panel
<slickymaster> me neither
<flocculant> this is just a personal preference
<ochosi> hmm, more modern. in what sense?
<flocculant> I hate a 100% panle
<bluesabre> But I don't know if there's really a good way to determine panel location defaults, it's all very personal in nature
<knome> ochosi, just the looks
<ochosi> bluesabre: +1
<knome> sure
<flocculant> irssi is bottom on half screen at the right - so I can see active channels
<knome> we just want sane defaults
<knome> so anybody else wants to provoke any thoughts?
<knome> or do we just keep everything as is?
<bluesabre> My personal suggestion would be leave it as is
<flocculant> make panle a sidebar
<bluesabre> And improve customization discoverability
<bluesabre> Somehow
<flocculant> I'd maybe think about the window list plugin defaults
<knome> bluesabre, pink flashing lights?
<bluesabre> flocculant: changes there?
<ochosi> i'd agree with flocculant in terms of discussing plugin settings, may end up being more productive
<knome> flocculant, right... what are our defaults there anyway?
<flocculant> knome: make it enormous - then smaller as apps open
<knome> ochosi, is this the "tease knome" evening?
<flocculant> maybe use one of the other task plugins? 
<flocculant> bluesabre: ^^
<flocculant> https://i.imgur.com/xPqWI4K.png
<knome> flocculant, would you like to make a more detailed proposal on that for the ML to start the discussion?
<flocculant> is what I have - no names, and it's not enormous
<bluesabre> flocculant: not really any better options... other than a dock application that has a few other features
<ochosi> there's only this unmaintained plugin that tries to be a dock...
<ochosi> taskbar-plugin iirc
<ochosi> which would be nice, if it worked properly
<flocculant> bluesabre: not wanting to go there - what we have is better (imo) than the bigh top panel and ' dock panel' we had ~12.04 ish
<bluesabre> flocculant: yeah
<flocculant> knome: I can yes
<bluesabre> I think what we have is pretty good, and definitely an acceptable default
<flocculant> yea - I'm not complaining as such
<bluesabre> Folks are always going to prefer top/bottom... usually no other reason than what they've gotten used to
<flocculant> :)
<bluesabre> Side panel people are different, but we're not going to be judgemental ;)
<ochosi> i thought you wanted to replace window-buttons plugin with something else, like something that allows for app pinning
<flexiondotorg> Umm, just seen this ;-)
<flexiondotorg> https://community.ubuntu.com/t/suggestion-use-mate-applications-in-the-eventual-unity-7-flavor-of-ubuntu-18-04/1949
<flocculant> I've had panel on 3 sides at different times - then did some software thing which monitored where mouse pointer spent time
<flocculant> then moved panel and it worked
<flocculant> flexiondotorg: yea - saw that too ;)
<bluesabre> flexiondotorg: seems like you're going to have a lot more friends soon
<slickymaster> well guys, I have to go now
<flexiondotorg> Welcome one and welcome all!
<slickymaster> tty tomorrow
<flexiondotorg> gn slickymaster 
<bluesabre> seeya sl
<bluesabre> slickymaster
<knome> ok, so
<flocculant> night slickymaster 
<knome> #action flocculant to send a proposal on improving panel configuration
<meetingology> ACTION: flocculant to send a proposal on improving panel configuration
<ochosi> night slickymaster 
<knome> anything else?
<knome> nighty slickymaster 
<flexiondotorg> bluesabre: Do you mind if I reference Xubuntu in that post on the Community Hub?
<flocculant> flexiondotorg: doubt it :p
<flocculant> and I'll watch it :p
<bluesabre> flexiondotorg: don't mind at all
<flexiondotorg> I don't want to steal anyones thunder.
<flexiondotorg> bluesabre flocculant Thanks.
<flocculant> np
<bluesabre> knome: think we're good for the panel discussion
<ochosi> +1
<knome> and other desktop-related ones too?
<flocculant> quick one
<knome> sure
<bluesabre> or not :)
<ochosi> although it's good to have that panel discussion every once in a while
<flocculant> do we want to keep this to ml?
<knome> compared to...?
<flocculant> I understand the cons of going to talk to people out there ... 
<flocculant> but is it worth the effort?
<bluesabre> Seems like it could be a can of worms
<flocculant> I can at least do one of the social things
<flocculant> yea - but it IS our can of worms ;)
<flocculant> is this something we can land late?
<knome> if we want to reach out, then i think it would better be a poll of some sort with some thoughts done beforehand
<flocculant> maybe do a ml - then reach out - then change?
<flocculant> mmm
<knome> rather than "tell us what you use"
<bluesabre> flocculant: no later than UI Freeze, so docs and screenshots could be updated in time for release
<knome> because as we just proved here, people really like different things
<flocculant> knome: how about you and I do a brainstorm and poll choice once we've got some 'data' ?
<flocculant> bluesabre: ack
<knome> bluesabre, except that we do not have any screenshots or big mentions in docs about these kind of things - for this reason ;)
<knome> but yes, this should land for UIF
<knome> in any case...
<flocculant> that's March :p
<knome> flocculant, related: there was a poll on the xfce twitter about vertical panels specifically
<flocculant> don't twitter so didn't see it
<knome> that's not really usable here, but looking at that i have an idea what kind of replies we might get
<flocculant> lets ml - then regroup
<knome> yup
<knome> i can help with the drafting if we decide to do that
<knome> and the social media of course
<flocculant> give it an arbitrary time scale
<knome> 2 weeks 
<knome> :P
<flocculant> decmeber 31st sounds good to me :D
<knome> that's fine as well
<bluesabre> Sounds like a good target
<knome> #topic Schedule next meeting
<flocculant> okey doke
<flocculant> hjang on buddy
<knome> yeeees?
<knome> :)
<flocculant> AOB first ...
<knome> wasn't on the agenda
<flocculant> AOB should always be on an agenda ... 
<knome> ;)
<flocculant> :p
<flocculant> what's going on with the community arty stuff?
<knome> #topic Other discussions
 * flocculant opens the other can of worms
<knome> we haven't agreed on the terms on the ML thread
<knome> i think i'll repoke that thread soonish
<bluesabre> Good idea
<knome> #action knome to wake up the discussion about the community wallpaper contest
<meetingology> ACTION: knome to wake up the discussion about the community wallpaper contest
<knome> starting the actual contest takes like 5 minutes
<flocculant> yup
<knome> so once we are in agreement...
<knome> anything else?
<bluesabre> Nothing from me
<flocculant> nope - just going to go and get all despondent about that now :p
<knome> :P
<knome> #topic Schedule next meeting
<knome> we'll pretend i was pleia2 
<knome> next up is akxwi-dave and flocculant 
<knome> and their clown show
<flocculant> sigh
<knome> i mean
<knome> the QA show
<knome> ;)
<knome> thanks everybody
<ochosi> thanks!
<bluesabre> and all the BAM and POW sound effects
<knome> one of those longer meetings today then
<knome> bluesabre, don't forget the farty effects!
<knome> #endmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting ended Fri Nov 17 23:28:31 2017 UTC.  
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/xubuntu-devel/2017/xubuntu-devel.2017-11-17-22.00.moin.txt
<flocculant> I think that we should pretend that first meeting is the noisiest council member - then the other 2 - and THEN the rest can take turns
<bluesabre> Pretty good though
<bluesabre> We got things done
<flocculant> yup
<bluesabre> Thanks everybody
<ochosi> i think it's more: we decided to get things done
<bluesabre> Thanks knome for chairing
<knome> np
<ochosi> most of those things still need doing ;)
<bluesabre> oh
<flocculant> useful to have flex be around at that time
<bluesabre> dang
<bluesabre> :'(
<bluesabre> definitely
<flocculant> saved a bunch of time there
<bluesabre> dinner time, bbl
<pleia2> slackin' pleia2 
<knome> minutes are up
<flocculant> ochosi: you about for 2 minutes for me to hassle you about xfce 14016
<ubottu> bugzilla.xfce.org bug 14016 in General "Output section looks odd without icon" [Normal,New] https://bugzilla.xfce.org/show_bug.cgi?id=14016
<ochosi> sure
<flocculant> bluesabre agrees with me :p
<flocculant> while he's eating :D
<flocculant> pleia2: I'm sure you're jet lagged and the meeting doesn't start for days :p
<pleia2> flocculant: idk what year it is :(
<bluesabre> pleia2: it's 2024 and xfce 4.14 was just released
<pleia2> and we moved the whisker of the mouse in the logo 2mm?
<knome> gosh no
<knome> not that much
<pleia2> :)
<knome> :)
<ochosi> flocculant: what about moving the icon just one row up?
<ochosi> what i didn't like is having two icosn
<ochosi> or having the icon span both rows
<ochosi> and making it larger again (although i like the current size
<ochosi> )
<flocculant> ochosi: I ahve no icon for output at all
<flocculant> oh ]
<ochosi> i know, but the row below has a corresponding icon
<flocculant> I see what you mean there
<flocculant> ok
<flocculant> so thinking out of the box from a not dev pov - why can the output(s) and be along side the volume control? 
<flocculant> I'd find it perfectly logical to see my DAC next to the vol slider
<flocculant> andif I had a mic - that level control next to it's 'name'
<ochosi> i think that's just a matter of: where and how do you trigger the submenu for selecting the output?
<ochosi> also, having name and slider in one row would result in either a very short slider or a very ellipsized name
<flocculant> ochosi: not quite what I mean
<ochosi> wanna draw it quickly?
 * flocculant will do one of his famous hand scribbled and scanned things
<flocculant> ha ha ha 
<ochosi> kewl
<knome> oh my
<knome> :P
<flocculant> knome: ochosi and I have discovered that the easiest way for us is me to scribble :p
<knome> haha
<flocculant> ochosi: https://imgur.com/qmAzdP9
<ochosi> so you would just merge the submenu into the same row
<flocculant> eg lose the output and input sections - have the switches next to the slider for them
<ochosi> which would mean you wouldn't be able to read the name of the selected output at one glance though
<ochosi> it could be tried, but not sure/sold yet ;)
<ochosi> gotta get some sleep
<flocculant> I can't now
<knome> nighty ochosi :)
<flocculant> yup
<flocculant> night ochosi 
<ochosi> but let's continue to discuss it, i understand the current solution may not be ideal
<flocculant> I'll hang around a while yet see if Sean comes back
<flocculant> yup
<flocculant> simple alternative is of course add icons back - maybe choose a different one, so they don't repeat
<bluesabre> flocculant: still around, hungy, but waiting it seems
<flocculant> hah
<flocculant> so that imgur scribble - lose the output/input sections - have the switches alongside slider
<flocculant> or - add icons, just work out a different one to lose ochosi's argument on duplication
<bluesabre> Alrighty, interesting idea
<bluesabre> I'll try each of them and let you know
<flocculant> of course I don't know what's achievable 
<flocculant> bluesabre: if it's some git thing - point me to it and I'll check it here with different hardware 
<bluesabre> flocculant: sure thing
<flocculant> and probably different music apps :D
<flocculant> this is that itch - which I can't scratch :p
<knome> uh oh
<flocculant> knome: :D
<knome> :)
<flocculant> bluesabre: also iof you start playuing with playlist support - same deal
<bluesabre> flocculant: basically send any updates your way for testing
<flocculant> bluesabre: for sure 
<flocculant> frankyl - I'll test anything :D
<flocculant> bluesabre: as long as I've got the git url to start with I can go for it
<flocculant> I do that with the mpd frontend I use
#xubuntu-devel 2017-11-18
<bluesabre> flocculant: good deal
<flocculant> np
<bluesabre> Will send you so much stuff to test
<flocculant> heh
<bluesabre> Heading to dinner now, bbl
<flocculant> speak tomorrow at some point then :)
<flocculant> have a good evening
<knome> bon appetit bluesabre 
<flocculant> knome: snealy ...
<flocculant> oh sigh, sneaky 
<knome> what? :)
<flocculant> no ACTION for Core on the logs :p
<knome> ugh
<knome> action is on bluesabre 
<flocculant> :p
<flocculant> is it ... ;)
<flocculant> logs don't agree lol
<knome> didn't he like it on the top?
<knome> :P
<flocculant> ha ha ha 
<flocculant> night then ...
<flocculant> :D
<knome> nighty ;)
<jbicha> flexiondotorg: one issue that I believe Xubuntu was concerned about is that libatrildocument3 depends on libjs-mathjax
<jbicha> also GNOME these days offers libgepub which is integrated into the gnome-documents app (well technically GNOME Books) but not into evince yet
<jbicha> so that needs a bunch of work probably, but that's a pointer if anyone wants to work on epub support in atril/evince
<jbicha> see LP: #241736, GNOME doesn't seem very interested in it
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 241736 in evince (Ubuntu) "support EPUB format" [Wishlist,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/241736
<flexiondotorg> jbicha: Thanks for the info. Very useful. 
-SwissBot:#xubuntu-devel- ::xubuntu-default-settings:: [trunk] r645 Disable window previews in Xfwm4's alt-tab dialog... (by Sean Davis)
-SwissBot:#xubuntu-devel- ::xubuntu-default-settings:: [trunk] r646 Do not show the label in the xfce4-power-manager panel plugi... (by Sean Davis)
-SwissBot:#xubuntu-devel- ::xubuntu-default-settings:: [trunk] r647 Add UNRELEASED changelog (by Sean Davis)
-SwissBot:#xubuntu-devel- ::xubuntu-default-settings:: [trunk] r648 * etc/xdg/xdg-xubuntu/xfce4/xfconf/xfce-perchannel-xml/xfce4... (by Sean Davis)
<bluesabre> Unit193, flexiondotorg, jbicha ... just going through the packages a bit briefly, might be able to decouple some of the depends and recommends to have some make requirements lighter https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1WicgA_g4seBsMitXNVM5pmAIYf1cwSgqAzfK7yeqIHw/edit?usp=sharing
<bluesabre> Will investigate more this weekend
<jbicha> Ubuntu's file-roller has this diff from Debian (Depend on zip & unzip instead of p7zip-full which is in universe)
<jbicha> this might be nice to cherry-pick: https://git.gnome.org/browse/file-roller/commit/?id=219ca07
<jbicha> cherry-pick to engrampa I mean
<jbicha> xubuntu-icon-theme doesn't provide engrampa.png yet
<bluesabre> ochosi: ^
<knome> bluesabre, when upgrading to artful, the terminal loses one configuration bit; the custom cursor. more exactly, the custom color is kept but the option to use the custom color is disabled...
<bluesabre> knome: might be something related to the gtk3 terminal
<knome> yeah, why not, but it's fixable by simply going to the settings and enabling this
<knome> something to consider for 18.04 to make sure we're migrating smoothly :)
<mun24> 	how to change wallpaper using remote shell?
<bluesabre> knome, cool, want to file a bug report for that (to LP)
<bluesabre> mun24: #xubuntu is the support channel (... and I do not know the answer)
<knome> bluesabre, i'll do it today
<bluesabre> Unit193: debdiff for engrampa packaging, want to build and test? (works for me) http://paste.ubuntu.com/25988577/
<flexiondotorg> bluesabre Initial upstream discussions about collaborating with Xubuntu and Ubuntu Unity have been positive.
<flexiondotorg> We should target upstream first for any required patches. 
<flexiondotorg> We are discussing creating a team for developers from other DEs using MATE applications on the MATE GitHub to streamline collaboration. Sound agreeable? 
<Unit193> bluesabre: Part of the deal with GNOME was that they needed stuff only from main, but we can use universe just fine.
<Unit193> So the only "regression" that's a feature lost in xfpm might be if the tray icon is gone, and I thought it was.
<bluesabre> flexiondotorg: sounds good to me
<bluesabre> Unit193: I figured that some parity between ubuntu and flavors would be a good thing
<bluesabre> Unit193: re xfpm, I think that's being looked into currently, I'd expect a new release sometime shortly (ochosi, thoughts?)
<Unit193> Mmm, depends.  Ubuntu loses features just because they're in universe, we simply don't have that limitation.
<bluesabre> Though, I'm not opposed to shipping p7zip-full, I install it anyway to support 7z and other archive formats
<bluesabre> Definitely good for a broader discussion between flavors and definitely the MATE team :)
<Unit193> Keep in mind I looked at xfpm a while ago then bailed, so I don't really know the current git state at all. :P
<Unit193> Also lots of pings about Core.  1. I'm still of the mindset that after 4+ years, we shouldn't be renaming it as it's already known as 'Xubuntu Core'.  2. I'm not entirely sure, if the patches get in, what else there is that I've stopped bothering about.  I still keep an eye on the seed, but we don't make a lot of seed changes anyway.
<bluesabre> Unit193: could you take another look and let us know what issues are blocking xfpm for you?
<bluesabre> Especially since we've been avoiding it for ~2 years :)
<bluesabre> Regarding Core, still seems like a better name to me, and that's not a good reason to block it
<Unit193> I'd rather not, but I suppose I should.
<bluesabre> Thanks Unit193... I'll try to make sure bionic is not a headache for you :)
<Unit193> Heh, thanks.  But some things are unavoidable.
<Unit193> bluesabre: Also thanks for picking up core, and moving to mate components, and everything else I'm missing.
<bluesabre> Unit193: figured we should start the LTS strong so there's time to fix bugs :)
<bluesabre> and flocculant has been pushing us to get things done early too
<bluesabre> QA people ;)
<Unit193> I've nearly got my shiny package done so I can test re-installs again.
<knome> bluesabre, hmm, apparently we also lost bold text color
<Unit193> Works for me.
<knome> hmm, and selection
<ochosi> Unit193: the tray icon is not gone in 1.6
<ochosi> it's still there and fully functional
<Unit193> ...Did it go away and come back at some point?
<ochosi> no
<ochosi> it was always there
<ochosi> but in the experimental PPA i get an error
<ochosi>  xfdesktop4 : Depends: libgarcon-gtk3-1-0 (>= 0.6.0) but it is not going to be installed
<ochosi> Unit193: you can enable it from the settings dialog's first tab, as always
<Unit193> ...Ok, so I remember it going away then coming back..Strange.
<Unit193> ochosi: Also, that really shouldn't be a problem..
<ochosi> Unit193: now, thinking back, i think there was a release where we dropped it or considered dropping it but the fact that lxde/lubuntu was using it at the time was a deciding factor not to do so. but anyway, in 1.6 it's still there
<ochosi> what to do about that packaging problem of garcon and xfdesktop though?
<Unit193> ochosi: Right, the lxde panel plugin was added, then the whole ordeal was reverted afaik.  And, as I said it *should* be fine, considering it was all built against everything.  I'm presuming you're on Artful.
#xubuntu-devel 2017-11-19
<ochosi> Unit193: yup
<flocculant> bluesabre: were you expecting iso to have both gnome- and mate- stuff at the moment?
<knome> http://www.strawpoll.me/14263444/r
<knome> that was the poll created by the person on the ML
<knome> not a big group of respondents, but very animous
<knome> bbl
<ochosi> knome: thats sorta what i would have expected... can of worms and cant get it right
<flocculant> :)
<bluesabre> flocculant: should just be gnome atm
<bluesabre> until I do another upload
<bluesabre> Suppose I can go ahead and do that and we can work on packaging improvements with flexiondotorg as we go forward :)
<flocculant> :)
<flocculant> today the iso has evince, file-roller and gnome-calc
<flocculant> plus the 3 new ones obviously :)
<flocculant> anyway - thought I'd let you know 
<Unit193> bluesabre: Don't forget at-spi-core to reco?
<bluesabre> Unit193: hm?
<bluesabre> brb
<bluesabre> flocculant: didn't expect the 3 new ones to be there
<flocculant> heh - bonus then :p
<jbicha> bluesabre: yeah, I think the iso builds pull from the seeds even if the metapackage hasn't been uploaded yet
<flocculant> ochosi: just a thought - but power plugin for on AC - why not just use the standard AC symbol? 
<bluesabre> jbicha: aha, that explains that then :)
<bluesabre> flocculant, just did the necessary uploads... should land soon and the next iso should just have the mate apps and associated config updates
<bluesabre> flocculant, so the next build would be a good time to spot check for any weirdness with keyboard shortcuts, archives, and PDF docs
<bluesabre> Unit193: what was the question with at-spi-core?
<flocculant> bluesabre: ack that - will have a look tomorrow evening then
-SwissBot:#xubuntu-devel- ::xubuntu-default-settings:: [trunk] r649 Release 18.04.1 (by Sean Davis)
<bluesabre> Unit193: now that we have https://github.com/shimmerproject/elementary-xfce/commit/d9f3446ca529066e9390ca3bcf82830ebf76c398, want to poke the packaging for  [xubuntu-dev] elementary-xfce: Split packaging for distribution improvements: TODO
-SwissBot:#xubuntu-devel- ::xubuntu-artwork:: [shimmer-themes-debian] r19 Sort install, add gnome-shell and plank (by Sean Davis)
<flexiondotorg> bluesabre Just let me know what you need regarding packaging ð
<flexiondotorg> So far all MATE packaging goes to Debian and sync to Ubuntu. Should be possible to retain that. 
<bluesabre> flexiondotorg: definitely, will have some suggestions sometime early this week
<ochosi> flocculant: first of all, there is no standard AC symbol (i only created one for our icon theme) and secondly, upower does not tell you that a system is a desktop. i have to "guess" that based on: 1) there is no battery, 2) there is no lid
<flocculant> ochosi: beg to differ - have a look on the back of any of your mains electrical things - living roon, bedroom, kitchen, garage - do they not have ~ there saying the voltage and frequency?
<flocculant> pretty much standard AC symbol
<flocculant> but if you can't get that info from something - then I guess its a moot point
<flocculant> s/not have a ~
<ochosi> ok, maybe there was a misunderstanding
<flocculant> yea :)
<ochosi> there is no "ac-adapter" icon in the freedesktop.org icon naming spec
<ochosi> and nothing like that in gnome's adwaita icon theme
<ochosi> i have no idea what gnome-shell does on a desktop system
<flocculant> right - that I can believe - though odd why it's not there
<ochosi> maybe it shows no icon at all
<ochosi> but anyhow, that's only the one part
<ochosi> the second part is that the middleware that we're relying on (UPower), does not tell you that a system is a desktop or laptop
<flocculant> ochosi: I can boot ubuntu on hardware
<flocculant> yup
<ochosi> so you have to guess based on some properties
<ochosi> and i figured those two would be fairly reliable
<flocculant> yea - pretty much would agree 
<ochosi> "back in the day" of xfpm 1.4 we had our own icon name spec
<ochosi> xfpm-battery-090.png etc
<ochosi> annoying to maintain and almost no icon theme supporting it
<ochosi> (but it used to be the same with gpm-battery-090.png etc)
<ochosi> now that we switched to upower icon names directly this means all icon themes will work
<ochosi> but we also "inherit" this ac-adapter thing
<ochosi> so if you could boot to ubuntu from hw (or even vm, cause that also should report as desktop system) that would help
<flocculant> booting vm then
<ochosi> thanks a bunch
<flocculant> np
<ochosi> oh wait, there *is* an ac-adapter icon
<ochosi> at least in adwaita
<ochosi> but it's a battery symbol with a flash inside
<ochosi> hmpf
<knome> lol
<knome> not that it means it's used...?
<ochosi> yeah, it doesn't mean that
<ochosi> i'll have to check gpm's sourcecode i gues...
<flocculant> ochosi: doesn't appear to be something I can turn on to check
<ochosi> lol https://github.com/GNOME/gnome-shell/blob/master/js/ui/status/power.js#L116
<knome> yep
<ochosi> bastards just use a random other icon
<knome> ;)
<ochosi> even though they also maintain upower..
<knome> at least you know how they handle the "no battery" situation now...
<ochosi> to be frank that is not a meaningful icon
<ochosi> http://i.imgur.com/FXVFF7n.png
<ochosi> i mean pff
<knome> hah
<knome> that's boo
<ochosi> if we put that in the panel, we better position it correctly, or it'll be spectacularly misleading
<knome> yes
<knome> please no
<knome> not that
<knome> i use it for xfce4-session-logout
<knome> because obvious reasons...
<ochosi> so i think i'll have to draw and include a proper ac-adapter icon for elementary-xfce and include/ship it with xfpm
<ochosi> or you could draw it knome while i write the "detect desktop system" code..?
<knome> pffft
<knome> i'm doing xfce things now
<flocculant> flash or ~ makes more sense than a power button icon ...
<knome> i have that plug with flash now
<knome> that's good.
<ochosi> yeah - i drew that back in the day
<ochosi> i guess i can try to make a symbolic version of it for now
<flocculant> what's a symbolic version of an ac symbol - a power station :p
<ochosi> a cable + plug with a flash on it?
<flocculant> makes sense 
<flocculant> lot to fit in though 
<flocculant> anyway - happy to test whatever you want whenever you want
<flocculant> night peeps
<ochosi> flocculant: gone already?
#xubuntu-devel 2018-11-12
<flocculant> Unit193 ochosi - ack, I'm sure I will have forgotten by then though :p
#xubuntu-devel 2018-11-13
<Unit193> bluesabre: Finally have new screensaver up for you.
#xubuntu-devel 2018-11-14
<batcastle> Hello!
<amolith> batcastle: \o/
<batcastle> So, I was wanting to get on here and let you guys know that I have created a derivative of Xubuntu. I followed the instructions on your website about what to remove. I was wanting to see if there was some way I can contribute upstream or something like that.
<batcastle> If you want to see what I have created, it's called Drauger OS. You can find it at https://draugeros.ml and on Sourceforge at https://sourceforge.net/projects/drauger-os
#xubuntu-devel 2018-11-15
<Unit193> bluesabre: How about working with your QA to get some testing on xfce4-screensaver to better evaluate inclusion, if that's where the team goes...?
<Unit193> So far, 2 people seem to have found it.
<bluesabre> Unit193: definitely. I have a significant update coming in the next day or 2 that will get it ready for the team to test
<bluesabre> Been fixing all the config options :)
<bluesabre> Exposed all the config options in the new preferences dialog, https://imgur.com/a/DISlwCI, it's crazy how many options were hidden
<Unit193> Hah, alrighty.
<flocculant> bluesabre: xfce 14877
<ubottu> bugzilla.xfce.org bug 14877 in General "Help link - document not found" [Normal,New] https://bugzilla.xfce.org/show_bug.cgi?id=14877
<flocculant> and where do you get the extra screensavers from ?
<Unit193> flocculant: xfce4-screensaver (fork of mate, fork of gnome) has the 'standard' support of screensavers, so one can install the data packages from xscreensaver/MATE/GNOME, pretty much anything that drops a desktop file in /usr/share/applications/screensavers/
<Unit193> !info rss-glx
<ubottu> 'disco' is not a valid distribution: artful, artful-backports, artful-proposed, bionic, bionic-backports, bionic-proposed, cosmic, cosmic-backports, cosmic-proposed, kubuntu-backports, kubuntu-experimental, kubuntu-updates, partner, precise, precise-backports, precise-proposed, stable, testing, trusty, trusty-backports, trusty-proposed, unstable, utopic, utopic-backports, utopic-proposed, vivid, vivid-backports, vivid-proposed, wily, wily-backports
<Unit193> NIiice.
#xubuntu-devel 2018-11-16
<flocculant> Unit193: thanks - wasn't sure
<Unit193> knome: http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/xubuntu/daily-live/current/ needs more Xubuntu blue.
<ochosi> agreed
 * genii keeps his sunglasses on for now
<genii> Unit193: What is Disco... Disco Duck?
<Unit193> Makes me think of a song.
<ochosi> Unit193: do we control the content of the xfce4 package?
<genii> Unit193: Heh, yes, that's why I'm asking
<Unit193> I'm going to go with 'no', why?
<ochosi> i mean, is it in our package set
<ochosi> well it still suggests stuff like gtk3-engines-xfce (which shouldn't even be a thing anymore)
 * genii heads back to the coffeepot
<ochosi> and includes "orage" for whatever obscure reason
<ochosi> while only suggesting xfce4-power-manager
<ochosi> that feels a little odd
<Unit193> orage is an Xfce thing, soo.
<ochosi> yeah, not a core thing though
<ochosi> it's also a very unmaintained thing
<ochosi> while tumbler isn't even in recommends or suggests
<ochosi> or does thunar pull that in anyway?
<Unit193> ...That's not even in xfce4-goodies, odd.
<ochosi> tango-icon-theme is also a bit... dated
<Unit193> ochosi: If things are way out of whack (like engines and orage), then yeah we can propose to Debian.
<ochosi> that'd be nice
<Unit193> Tango is what xfce4-settings defaults to (in Debian)
<ochosi> humm
<ochosi> i'd rather we default to something else
<ochosi> almost anything really :p
<Unit193> Basically: Xubuntu doesn't really care about it, but we can upload to it.  If we make a lot of changes, it doesn't really get us anything since we don't use it and buys us a lot of merging later on.  If the changes make sense outside of Xubuntu, then that's different.
<ochosi> (sry, i know i'm late to the party with suddenly getting interested in distro defaults)
<ochosi> yeah, i'm trying to think about the latter
<Unit193> I've proposed greybird and elementary-xfce, but not pushed on it.
<ochosi> i noticed how shitty the xfce experience is in fedora
<ochosi> so i've started working on a new default panel layout and stuff
<Unit193> "It's what the Xfce site has screenshots of" was my main reasoning.
<ochosi> i'll also go through other apps and update the defaults
<ochosi> so e.g. the primary display feature is enabled in both panel and xfdesktop
<ochosi> cause that's what people would expect, i guess
#xubuntu-devel 2018-11-17
<Unit193> ochosi: For reference, sn-plugin is in Debian, but not under the pkg-xfce umbrella.
<ochosi> oh, interesting
<Unit193> That's maintained by me and Sean.
<ochosi> ah, i see
<bluesabre> could probably get that pulled into pkg-xfce if we make it part of the core defaults
<flocculant> bluesabre: was only a little bug - but thanks :)
<bluesabre> :)
<flocculant> seems I've a bigger issue with since getting extra stuff from xscreensaver-data - it doesn't work :p
<bluesabre> That doesn't sound good
<flocculant> just having a bit more of a look
<bluesabre> I found something fun... xscreensaver disables the X11 screensaver when you exit it
<flocculant> mmm
<bluesabre> Wondered why it wasn't working in Fedora, screensaver got disabled D:
<bluesabre> Good thing to check, output of `xdg-screensaver status`
<flocculant> bluesabre: so adding xscreensaver-data - gives a bigger (and better for some) list of things - but then nothing is working 
<flocculant> that says 'enabled'
<bluesabre> flocculant: do the previews work in the Screensaver prefs dialog?
<flocculant> nope
<bluesabre> oh wow
<flocculant> click on anything - even original ones and you just see a blank screen
<bluesabre> I'm at a loss then :D
<flocculant> I'll check in live session before I do any reporting 
<flocculant> ha ha ha 
<flocculant> bluesabre: can you add things from pad to agenda :)
<bluesabre> Yes, need to do that... will go ahead with that in a sec.
<flocculant> cheers
<flocculant> ochosi and Unit193 have said they'll be missing if you didn't see that
<bluesabre> Yeah, saw that as well
<flocculant> bluesabre: I lied - the original stuff does work - just none of the ones that -data package adds
<bluesabre> interesting
<bluesabre> name one of them?
<flocculant> only actually grabbed that one cos Unit193 said so :p 
<flocculant> Fuzzy Flakes 
<bluesabre> https://i.imgur.com/QUrrWMI.png
<flocculant> https://i.imgur.com/tVmvOuh.png
<flocculant> bluesabre: is that in something not 19.04 ?
<bluesabre> 18.10, will check out 19.04 this weekend
<bluesabre> I wonder if it's a GL screensaver and GL is funny in qemu?
<flocculant> ok - well I will report it to bugzilla now I've looked on the live session
<bluesabre> thx
<flocculant> well it might be - but it doesn't work on my physical machine 
<flocculant> which is why I checked the live as well
<flocculant> anyway - be about a bit off and on today - but off now :p
<flocculant> found a thing in .xsession-errors - might help - put it in the bug report which is xfce 14883
<ubottu> bugzilla.xfce.org bug 14883 in General "Extra screensavers fail to work" [Normal,New] https://bugzilla.xfce.org/show_bug.cgi?id=14883
<knome> Unit193, ack, i have the documentation on that svaed
<bluesabre> flocculant: added the items to the agenda
<Unit193> ochosi: xfpm is only suggests as it's only really useful on laptops
<ochosi> Unit193: not sure, some people also hibernate/suspend their pcs
<Unit193> (That's the reasoning, though.)
<ochosi> also, it has DPMS settings that are relevant for pcs
<ochosi> sure, just telling you why i would beg to differ :)
<Unit193> Also stated that one should look at what tasksel would install, as that's what ends up on 'xfce' installs.
<ochosi> not sure what tasksel would install
#xubuntu-devel 2018-11-18
<flocculant> bluesabre: changed order of agenda items a bit - get the heavy stuff in at the beginning for people (me) start flagging :)
<flocculant> s/before/for
#xubuntu-devel 2019-11-11
<ochosi> Unit193: just set up xiccd 0.3 - will watch it over the next days to be sure i don't run into that bug again
<ochosi> thanks again for packaging!
<Unit193> Actually that was just a backport, but sure thing.
-SwissBot:#xubuntu-devel- Reminder: Next meeting chair is knome
#xubuntu-devel 2019-11-12
<krytarik> bluesabre: Oh heh, on just checking the CD Image CSS bug report and the newly created Git repo for this, I noticed the latter isn't in the correct namespace and therefor doesn't appear on the code page of the xubuntu-website project - i.e. <https://git.launchpad.net/~xubuntu-website/+git/xubuntu-cdimage-css> should rather be ...
<krytarik> ... <https://git.launchpad.net/~xubuntu-website/xubuntu-website/+git/xubuntu-cdimage-css>
<krytarik> In this context (checking if we want our own favicon on cdimage.u.c wrt a potential merge proposal we might have to do), I also just noticed that there is currently a mixed-content issue on the mailing list info pages, because the Xubuntu logo is still sourced from HTTP whereas the pages are on HTTPS - and the latter also still links to <http://xubuntu.org/> while on clicking it one is of ...
<krytarik> ... course redirected to HTTPS because that's being enforced for some time now.
<krytarik> And if any of the admins is going to update the HTML pages there anyway, might as well update the Ubuntu CoC link to <https://ubuntu.com/community/code-of-conduct> then.
<knome> krytarik, mixed content issue should be fixed now
<k3dar71> @Unit193 hi, i see you add to Extras PPA thunar-shares-plugin for 19.10, can you please also readd for 18.04 ? actual version can be build on 18.04 without problem :-)
<k3dar71> Unit193: and also xfce4-terminal in actual version can be finaly build on 18.04 without need use vte patch, can you add to Staging PPA please? :-)
<Unit193> k3dar7: ...But it can't, because libthunarx-3-dev doesn't exist in bionic, as thunar was gtk2 at that point..And the patch for xfce4-terminal is very much still needed in 0.8.8-1 or it fails to build.
#xubuntu-devel 2019-11-13
<krytarik> knome: Yep, it is!  But did you notice that the Ubuntu CoC link didn't just move from HTTP to HTTPS?
<Unit193> So I won't make it to the meeting (I hope), hopefully you won't need a cranky opinion on anything.
<k3dar7> Unit193: xfce4-terminal-0.8.8 can be build without patch, using this: https://pastebin.com/N4EeHM8C and libthunarx-3-dev for thunar-shares-plugin is not in bionic official repos, but is for bionic in  ppa:xubuntu-dev/staging, is not enough? :-)
<Unit193> It won't on Bionic, unless you're using some odd PPA with vte in it.  Yeah thought about that, but then got sidetracked (and didn't know if that really got enough use to people.)
<Unit193> k3dar7: thunar-shares-plugin should be built soon.
#xubuntu-devel 2019-11-14
<k3dar7> Unit193: thanks, builded thunar-shares-plugin on 18,04 work
<knome> krytarik, no?
<xubuntu-focal-te> Hi, just a quick question - does it make sense to test the Xubuntu 20.04 image already for bugs or is this the same as 18.04?
<xubuntu-focal-te> I am trying to understand https://dev.xubuntu.org/ but maybe someone can just give me some raw overview? Thank you!
<xubuntu-focal-te> I am focussing on this one: http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/xubuntu/daily-live/current/
<bluesabre> xubuntu-focal-te: Yes, always yes with testing! :-) There's new updates to 20.04 every single day, and any one of those can be a fix or a slew of new bugs. The sooner we know about any bugs, the sooner we can get them fixed.
<bluesabre> xubuntu-focal-te: We have a set of standard tests found here... this is what we use for go/nogo on release day. http://iso.qa.ubuntu.com/qatracker/milestones/408/builds
<xubuntu-focal-te> Just to understand the process: is the image coming from 18.04 or from the 19.10 release?
<bluesabre> xubuntu-focal-te: dev.xubuntu.org is used to track development progress. We configure blueprints at the beginning of the development cycle, and as they are implemented, they are cleared out there.
<bluesabre> xubuntu-focal-te: 20.04 is closest to 19.10, but there are daily package updates that are even newer than 19.10. There's also an active sync of Debian packages until later in the cycle.
<bluesabre> xubuntu-focal-te: You can see a broad overview of the release schedule here, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/FocalFossa/ReleaseSchedule. This applies to all official Ubuntu flavors.
<xubuntu-focal-te> OK, so the development does not go from LTS 18.04 to LTS 20.04 - instead the development path goes always via the non-lts releases. I undertand that right?
<xubuntu-focal-te> btw This page does not exist yet. for the last url
<bluesabre> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/FocalFossa/ReleaseSchedule
<bluesabre> Sorry, that period probably messed it up
<bluesabre> Yeah, development happens in the non-LTS releases between, and usually the LTS development cycle is spent on polishing any remaining issues.
<xubuntu-focal-te> OK, thank you ver much for your attention!
<bluesabre> Glad to help, thanks for dropping by.
<xubuntu-focal-te> And BTW I totally love Xubuntu, best desktop system around for my needs, please keep up the good work! 
<bluesabre> Thanks!
<xubuntu-focal-te> [ ...even if it is a little it annoying to get around the lightdm quirks, using gdm to have it working, anyway love xfce :) - ready to take the pain for that!  ]
<bluesabre> We made some improvements there in 19.10, with more on the way ;)
<xubuntu-focal-te> one more q: what is the best site to watch progress for Xubuntu 20.04 - is there a blog? Besides bugtracker I mean.
<bluesabre> There's the tracker at dev.xubuntu.org, but it can stay pretty quiet. I do regular development updates at my personal blog, https://bluesabre.org/ as well. There's the development ML at https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/xubuntu-devel/, and we try to keep our Twitter relevant, https://twitter.com/Xubuntu
<bluesabre> I'm planning to restart this development series, https://bluesabre.org/2018/10/31/xubuntu-development-update-november-2018/, where I posted monthly about all the goings-on
<xubuntu-focal-te> Would be definitely interesting to see how the development process works out of your perspective - also for future developers or lurkers that might be interested to get into Xubutu dev one day!
<bluesabre> Most of the development is upstream in Xfce, and we patch downstream for any high impact bugs. We have separate artwork, development, website, documentation, and QA teams (and more, each team has their own roadmap at the bottom of https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/xubuntu-f-roadmap). We try to fix what we can, but both the Xfce and Xubuntu teams are pretty small and not always active.
<bluesabre> We're always looking for new devs, and are currently in need of a new QA lead. :D
<bluesabre> Here's our strategy doc that outlines most of how the team works: https://docs.xubuntu.org/contributors/xsd.html
<bluesabre> Anyway, gotta step out for a bit. Feel free to stick around and ask questions, I'm not the only one around (but I am the chattiest).
<flocculant> bluesabre: and people used to want me to shut up :D
#xubuntu-devel 2019-11-15
<bluesabre> flocculant: :D
<Unit193> I mean, I wouldn't exactly agree with that statement.  It was more of a duck and cover because I know I was crap at that.  Vbox isn't working like it used to. :3
<Unit193> bluesabre: Going to discuss anything interesting at this meeting?
<Unit193> Wow...He *really* didn't like me asking.
<bluesabre> lol
<bluesabre> Unit193: probably discuss blueprints, knome's hats, and... (not sure yet)
<Unit193> :3
<Unit193> Have fun!
<krytarik> knome: I mean <https://www.ubuntu.com/community/conduct> forwards to <https://ubuntu.com/community/code-of-conduct> curremtly, might as well link it directly.
 * smkellat set a couple alarms and will try to make his first meeting back in a few years
 * smkellat shuffles off to get a couple hours sleep
<bluesabre> !team | Reminder: Xubuntu Community Meeting in 45 minutes!
<ubottu> Reminder: Xubuntu Community Meeting in 45 minutes!: akxwi-dave, bluesabre, knome, krytarik, ochosi, pleia2, slickymaster and Unit193
<Unit193> Have fun!
<bluesabre> #startmeeting Xubuntu Community Meeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Fri Nov 15 11:00:24 2019 UTC.  The chair is bluesabre. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
<bluesabre> !team | Xubuntu Community Meeting is a-go! Anybody around?
<ubottu> Xubuntu Community Meeting is a-go! Anybody around?: akxwi-dave, bluesabre, knome, krytarik, ochosi, pleia2, slickymaster and Unit193
<bluesabre> Eickmeyer: studio poke
<bluesabre> I'm fixing my pop tart breakfast, so I'll give folks a few minutes to appear
<smkellat> O/
<bluesabre> smkellat: hello! Long time, no see :)
<bluesabre> This might be a very short meeting.
<smkellat> I think so. 
<smkellat> I did a bit of a text dump on the deja-dup bug.
<bluesabre> Which one?
<smkellat> Hmm.  Let me pull up the blueprint
<smkellat> LP 1746039
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1746039 in xubuntu-meta (Ubuntu) "Xubuntu needs a gui backup utility --- deja-dup or somesuch" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1746039
<smkellat> I installed deja-dup on my 20.04 installation.  It doesn't play nice.
<bluesabre> Gotcha
<bluesabre> Yeah, for some of the bugs that I linked to the BP, I thought it might be worthwhile to add them to the docs or the wiki, for users that are looking for options.
<bluesabre> In the past, we've done documentation for software we don't ship, like music applications and others.
<bluesabre> Kind of an ack that, yeah, users are looking for this, where can we point them :)
<smkellat> The weird toggle in the menu bar is one that I am not sure I know what to do with from a documentation standpoint.  It doesn't seem to do anything.
<smkellat> s/menu bar/title bar/
<bluesabre> Yeah, I remember it being a bit confusing the last time I used it
<bluesabre> It might be wholly dependent on one of the gnome control panel applets now
<bluesabre> Anyway, I think I'll go ahead and reschedule this meeting for later today... probably around 22/23 utc to maybe grab some folks
<smkellat> Sounds like a plan.  I'll try to make sure I am around then.
<bluesabre> #info Rescheduling for later today.
<bluesabre> #endmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting ended Fri Nov 15 11:18:03 2019 UTC.  
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/xubuntu-devel/2019/xubuntu-devel.2019-11-15-11.00.moin.txt
<ochosi> bluesabre: oh shit, missed the meeting
<ochosi> really sorry, life got in the way :/
<bluesabre> lol
<bluesabre> no problemo
<bluesabre> Will just push it to later today
<ochosi> a meeting in 12hrs from now would work better i guess
<ochosi> or 11hrs maybe
<ochosi> then the kids are *surely* asleep
<ochosi> and the wife too
<bluesabre> Yeah, waiting for the wife to wake up to ensure I'm available then
<ochosi> and i don't get calls from the office...
<ochosi> :)
<ochosi> ok
<ochosi> gotta run again
<ochosi> just lemme know what would work
<ochosi> (on the go a bit this weekend)
<bluesabre> sure thing
<Unit193> bluesabre: You didn't have fun. :(
-SwissBot:#xubuntu-devel- ::xfce4-announce:: ANNOUNCE: exo 0.12.9 released @ http://xfce.10915.n7.nabble.com/ANNOUNCE-exo-0-12-9-released-tp56550.html (by Sean Davis-6)
-SwissBot:#xubuntu-devel- ::xfce4-announce:: ANNOUNCE: parole 1.0.5 released @ http://xfce.10915.n7.nabble.com/ANNOUNCE-parole-1-0-5-released-tp56552.html (by Sean Davis-6)
<bluesabre> huzzah! http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/xubuntu/daily-live/current/
<bluesabre> Double huzzah! http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/xubuntu/releases/eoan/release/
<knome> krytarik, i figured, i'll try to remember to get it later..
<bluesabre> knome, I don't suppose you might be available for bit in ~1 hour?
 * smkellat sets alarm for meeting
<bluesabre> !team | Xubuntu Community Meeting in 45 minutes!
<ubottu> Xubuntu Community Meeting in 45 minutes!: akxwi-dave, bluesabre, knome, krytarik, ochosi, pleia2, slickymaster and Unit193
<Unit193> I'm..Uh...hrm...sleeping?
<Unit193> Niiiiice on cdimage.
-SwissBot:#xubuntu-devel- ::xfce4-announce:: ANNOUNCE: thunar 1.8.11 released @ http://xfce.10915.n7.nabble.com/ANNOUNCE-thunar-1-8-11-released-tp56554.html (by Alexander Schwinn-2)
<bluesabre> Aaaaaaand
<bluesabre> #startmeeting Xubuntu Community Meeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Fri Nov 15 23:00:10 2019 UTC.  The chair is bluesabre. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
<bluesabre> !team | Xubuntu Community Meeting is a-go again! Anybody around?
<ubottu> Xubuntu Community Meeting is a-go again! Anybody around?: akxwi-dave, bluesabre, knome, krytarik, ochosi, pleia2, slickymaster and Unit193
<bluesabre> Will give folks a few minutes to show up.
<ochosi> o/
<bluesabre> #chair ochosi
<meetingology> Current chairs: bluesabre ochosi
<pleia2> o/
<bluesabre> #chair pleia2
<meetingology> Current chairs: bluesabre ochosi pleia2
<bluesabre> Very nice :D
<bluesabre> knome plz :)
<bluesabre> Well, let's get started :)
<bluesabre> #info Agenda at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Meetings
<bluesabre> #topic Open action items
<bluesabre> ... and there are none.
<bluesabre> #topic Updates and announcements
<bluesabre> #info Xubuntu 19.10 "Eoan Ermine" released on 10/17, https://xubuntu.org/news/xubuntu-19-10-released/
<bluesabre> #info Xubuntu 20.04 "Focal Fossa" development has started!
<bluesabre> #info 20.04 draft release schedule up at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/FocalFossa/ReleaseSchedule
<bluesabre> Some key dates:
<bluesabre> 11/28 - Feature Definition Freeze (get your blueprints updated!)
<bluesabre> 1/9 - Ubuntu Testing Week (let's maybe participate in that)
<bluesabre> 2/27 - Feature Freeze / Debian Import Freeze
<bluesabre> 3/19 - User Interface Freeze
<bluesabre> 4/2 - Beta
<bluesabre> 4/16 - Release Candidate
<bluesabre> 4/23 - Final Release
<bluesabre> #info 20.04 development tracker up at https://dev.xubuntu.org/
<bluesabre> #info Translation templates for xubuntu-default-settings have been updated, so check out https://translations.launchpad.net/xubuntu-default-settings/trunk/+translations and update your native language
<bluesabre> #info The Xubuntu cdimage page is now Xubuntu-branded! http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/xubuntu/daily-live/current/
<bluesabre> (And that's everything on my list!) Anybody else?
<pleia2> nice
<ochosi> kewl
<ochosi> regarding general topics and announcements...
<ochosi> i guess we shouldn't expect too many changes in our xfce stack from 19.10 to 20.04
<ochosi> the maximum would be including new patch releases of certain apps, and maybe 4.14 patch releases of certain core components
<ochosi> but nothing dramatic
<bluesabre> Yeah, outside of fixes and some straggler GTK-2 things, Xfce will be pretty quiet this cycle
<ochosi> afaict there have also been no "terrible" bugreports upstream
<bluesabre> "Terrible" is pretty bad... any normal bad ones? :)
<ochosi> not sure if we can already get rid of gtk2 on the default install
<ochosi> not that i know of :)
<bluesabre> Yeah, gimp and pidgin are holding that up (maybe some other things as well)
<ochosi> meh
<ochosi> i guess we have little to no alternatives to them
<bluesabre> Yeah, so most likely GTK2+3 for the next couple cycles
<ochosi> mhm
<bluesabre> Any other updates? Unit193: anything interesting coming from Debian-land?
<Unit193> I have no idea.
<bluesabre> #chair Unit193 
<meetingology> Current chairs: Unit193 bluesabre ochosi pleia2
<bluesabre> :D
<Unit193> bluesabre: Not sure it matters, but all d/watch files are now broken.
<ochosi> are we missing much from xfce-gtk3?
<Unit193> I *knew* it!
<bluesabre> Unit193: oh?
<Unit193> bluesabre: mirrorbrain â mirrorbit literally broke everything.
<bluesabre> Niiiiiiice
<Unit193> (See scrollback in #debian-xfce)
<bluesabre> !info xfburn focal
<ubottu> xfburn (source: xfburn): CD-burner application for Xfce Desktop Environment. In component universe, is optional. Version 0.5.5-2 (focal), package size 373 kB, installed size 2041 kB
<Unit193> ochosi: We need to update time-out-plugin, or something.  But that's about it.
<bluesabre> ochosi: 0.6.x of that ^ will give us gtk3
<ochosi> ok
<ochosi> well at least that would be some kind of achievement, saying that all of xfce is now gtk3
<ochosi> other than that we have not much on 19.10 i guess
<ochosi> unless any of you have anything planned
<ochosi> but my time/efforts will probably mostly go towards 4.16
<ochosi> and maybe preparing greybird a little for more CSD
<bluesabre> Yeah... I'll probably start sending bug reports your way as I cleanup the lists
<bluesabre> Trying to tidy up all the trackers for 20.04 :)
<Unit193> Basically, test 4.14, get all point releases.
<bluesabre> mhm
<bluesabre> Any other updates/announcements?
<Unit193> Backport everything to the one PPA for people that want to update, but don't want to update.  Nope.
<ochosi> nope
<bluesabre> oh yeah
<bluesabre> I've started helping with the Xubuntu Twitter, so it might be slightly more chatty going forward.
<pleia2> thanks bluesabre <3
<bluesabre> (let me know if it needs to shut up ;))
<bluesabre> Moving on now...
<bluesabre> # topic Discussion
<bluesabre> #topic Discussion
<bluesabre> #subtopic Xubuntu 20.04 Planning
<bluesabre> #link https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/xubuntu-f-roadmap
<bluesabre> #info Feature definition freeze is on 11/28, which is just under 2 weeks away. Be sure to review the blueprints and make any changes needed.
<bluesabre> Not sure if we want to do some planning or review now... I tried to make sure everything was relevant and up-to-date.
<ochosi> we can take a look now
<ochosi> as i said, not sure i have much planned (apart from maybe fixing some bugs, so no features i guess)
<bluesabre> One of the bigger ones (maybe big-ish?) will be the wallpaper contest... though knome already made that pretty easy from what I remember
<pleia2> yeah, we'll need to check that the site is in good shape, but as long as it still works, it should be fine
<pleia2> then we just need to promote and such
<ochosi> yeah
<ochosi> since g+ is dead i'm pretty much out of the social media loop
<pleia2> yeah, so blog, twitter, fb, probably reddit now too
<pleia2> (also, if anyone wants to be a mod on reddit, lmk)
<Unit193> ochosi: https://a.thumbs.redditmedia.com/qW9AP-SMY75Xq-RRyPsg-u2zLMvSAT9m9vMXMLW6ux8.png
<ochosi> Unit193: lol
<bluesabre> I linked a bunch of bugs to https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/xubuntu-f-bugs, not all to be fixed or included necessarily, but maybe a chance for extended documentation
<bluesabre> Or even just for closing out if they're just outside of our scope
<ochosi> ok, i'll take a look
<ochosi> humm, how can one test plymouth again...
<bluesabre> I actually don't know where the flyer exists from https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/xubuntu-f-documentation, is that somewhere in LP?
<bluesabre> ochosi: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Plymouth#line-162 :)
<pleia2> yeah, the flyer is in lp
<pleia2> under https://launchpad.net/xubuntu-marketing
<bluesabre> pleia2: awesome, thanks!
<bluesabre> Anything else to discuss regarding the blueprints for now? ochosi pleia2 Unit193 
<ochosi> nope, unfortunately not
<ochosi> apart from "i'll try to fix a bug or two"
<bluesabre> :)
<bluesabre> Next up
<bluesabre> #subtopic Xubuntu QA Discussion
<bluesabre> So, we're still without a QA lead. Kev left us in pretty good shape, but we probably need to start figuring things out.
<bluesabre> At the same time, the Ubuntu Mate QA folks really gave us a boost in 19.10, so we should thank them for stepping up and helping out. Thanks Wimpress, franksmsb, and all the other Mate lurkers! :-)
<bluesabre> *franksmcb
 * smkellat is late due to a system hang
<bluesabre> I should probably send a mail out to the testers team to see who we still have around
<bluesabre> hey smkellat!
<ochosi> do you have any concrete suggestions apart from "emailing the testers" as to what we could do?
<bluesabre> Not yet... In generally, folks only become leads if they're interested and have sustained contribution
<bluesabre> Brought it to the meeting of the minds for more ideas ;)
<smkellat> Term limits and rotation out help prevent burnout
<smkellat> i.e. No more than 3 releases in a row leading QA
<bluesabre> Yeah, pretty sure we burned Kev out
<bluesabre> But that was also with others taking up the QA mantle, but ultimately having to step down due to life. The small team makes it hard to have a backup plan. :)
<Unit193> I mean, we couldn't even get someone to be team lead..
<smkellat> And Iâm only wandering back in after six years of Uncle Sam...
<bluesabre> So yeah, I think the first step is just opening up the communication channel with our testers and warm them up to the idea of keeping QA going :)
<Unit193> Might as well send to -devel too.
<bluesabre> yup
<bluesabre> Alrighty, on to the next topic so I don't keep everybody too long :)
<bluesabre> #subtopic The many hats of knome
<bluesabre> knome shared this with the team, https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/xubuntu-devel/2019-October/011850.html, in case anybody wants to step up and take some of the responsibilities off his shoulders.
<ochosi> maybe we could call for a new web lead
<ochosi> could be a good way to get someone into the project
<bluesabre> I'm good with helping with Twitter and ML, and can help with server items as needed.
<ochosi> there just seem to be so many web devs out there
<Unit193> I'd say I'd help with server stuff, but I'm already listed there I guess.  I go through the moderation queue too, but there's something in -users crashing listadmin. :3
<bluesabre> Yeah, that's a good thought
<Unit193> ...Spass? :P
<ochosi> :)
<bluesabre> oooh
<bluesabre> Spass indeed
<Unit193> I'm entirely crap with websites.
<aaronfranke> So what's involved with the web lead position? I've been doing web dev for several years, mostly with simple HTML/CSS/JS.
<ochosi> oh hi - a new face is always welcome! :)
<bluesabre> :)
<smkellat> The most I can do with a website is use either ikiwiki or MkDocs at this point.
<Unit193> We use wordpress (with our plugins), and some php for the tracker.
<ochosi> i think getting familiar with our current setup would be step 1
<ochosi> then reviewing if there are obvious bugs could be step 2
<ochosi> improvements, suggestions, new ideas would be step 3 or so
<aaronfranke> Oh, I hate wordpress... :P
<ochosi> heh
<bluesabre> I don't know anybody that loves wordpress
<pleia2> hehe
<smkellat> LaTeXML is easier to wrangle
<aaronfranke> The current website looks really nice already, though I can think of a few things to improve.
<pleia2> knome has done a lot of work in wordpress to automate things like release tasks
<pleia2> so it's decent to use from an admin perspective too
<Unit193> And the contest is in wp.
<pleia2> yeah, a whole separate instance
#xubuntu-devel 2019-11-16
<bluesabre> Some relevant code can be found here, https://code.launchpad.net/~xubuntu-website
<ochosi> sry, g2g..
<ochosi> night everyone
<bluesabre> ochosi: have a good night! (I have you scheduling the next meeting btw)
<bluesabre> aaronfranke: if you want to stick around on this channel, we'd definitely appreciate the help even if you don't take up leadership :)
<bluesabre> Just, you know, something to consider ;)
<aaronfranke> Sure, though I don't know how much of a help I can be with a Wordpress site
<aaronfranke> I've been reading the messages here for awhile and I'll probably stay here for awhile
<bluesabre> We also have the dev tracker (https://dev.xubuntu.org/) which is just PHP/HTML/JS I believe, and https://wiki.xubuntu.org/ which is a dokuwiki instance
<bluesabre> :)
<bluesabre> But yeah, probably about time to wrap up this discussion
<bluesabre> #topic AOB
<bluesabre> Anything else, anybody?
<bluesabre> Guessing not
<bluesabre> #topic Schedule next meeting
<bluesabre> ochosi: you can have the next one. Make it fun (and within 20.04) ;)
<bluesabre> #action ochosi to schedule next meeting
<meetingology> ACTION: ochosi to schedule next meeting
<bluesabre> #endmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting ended Sat Nov 16 00:08:08 2019 UTC.  
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/xubuntu-devel/2019/xubuntu-devel.2019-11-15-23.00.moin.txt
<bluesabre> Thanks everybody... chatters, lurkers, and later readers!
<Unit193> In the letter where he's stepping back, I was listed in 3 sections. :3
<bluesabre> Unit193: we depend on you
 * bluesabre bows
<Unit193> bluesabre: I know you've been doing all the work lately, but I'd like to leave parole to you.  Do you have git commit rights in Salsa?
<bluesabre> Unit193: pretty sure I do... but will check
<bluesabre> Unit193: I have the Web IDE button, so suppose I have write perms
<Unit193> ..Is SwissBot's chair of shame actually helpful, to anyone?
<bluesabre> I actually have no idea what it does
-SwissBot:#xubuntu-devel- Reminder: Next meeting chair is ochosi
<Unit193> â
<bluesabre> But I will chair every team member I see
<Unit193> bluesabre: FWIW, if you were to fall out in the middle of the meeting, I could always op up and end it.
<bluesabre> Good to know
<krytarik> bluesabre: Did you get my message wrt moving the xubuntu-cdimage-css repo into the right namespace under the xubuntu-website project?  Could probably do that now since the related bug report is done.  Might as well shorten the name to just "cdimage-css" then or even just "cdimage" since it includes the favicon too now.  Also, while the header URL isn't actually exposed to the visitor to ...
<krytarik> ... click on, it seems vorlon manually adapted it to the HTTP version of our website while it was merged with the correct HTTPS one you provided.
