#ubuntu-meeting 2004-12-18
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:smurfix_] : Tuesday 07 December 2004 at 16:00 UTC: Community Council meeting -- https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/CommunityCouncilAgenda
<jlinares> bona tarda
<teo> hi
* mako finds out that the meeting is *not* in $ubunut-meeting
<mako> #ubunut-meeting
<mako> BUST AN UNBUNUT
<jordi> Avall els pantalons! (we need to boost catalan usage in this conference...)
<fabbione> ehhehe
<jdub> jordi: that is very different to the spanish
<jordi> well, it's adifferent language after all :)
<jdub> sounds french ;)
<seb128> yeah
<jordi> jdub: doh, I thought you said "abajo los pantalones"
<jordi> They tell me you said "Estoy buscando mis pantalones"
<jordi> Sooo, let's make that "Estic cercant els meus pantalons!"
<jdub> jordi: oh, avall is "take off"? :)
<mako> jdub: avail yourself of your pants
<jordi> "abajo" :)
<jdub> heh
<jdub> mako: NEVER!
<jdub> you will have to fight me!
<quique> we will...
<mako> believe me, i will
<lamont__r> agenda item #1 is jdub's pants?
<mako> if ubuntu has taught me anything, it's that TOGETHER, ANYTHING IS POSSIBLE
<jordi> I need to announce that jdub has been able to deliver a package maaaaany Debian people were waiting for.
<quique> and #2 is his underware
<jordi> It took like... 4 minutes to prepare.
<sivang> jdub : can you see this?
<mako> ok, so this meeting
<mako> i will "Run" this if nobody else wants to
<smurfix_> quique: under_wear_.
<quique> i know...
<jordi> remember, you said you would not be able to run for 2 minutes.
<mako> elmo, Kamion: around?
<elmo> yes
<Kamion> yes
<mako> ok, so the agenda is, AFAIK, empty
<smurfix_> It says "Any new maintainers?".
<mako> are there are new maintainers for the council to consider this week?
<mako> anyone here that wanted to be on that agenda but isn't?
<mako> or, any other business folks want to have mentioned?
<mako> otherwise, i think we should just do a bit of a summary from the conference and end it.. short and sweet :)
<haggai> yesterday there was some discussion about seeds, and the fact there isn't really a defined process for accepting/rejecting seeds
* mako is happy to add that to the list
<mako> or is this a TB issue?
<mako> Kamion?
<haggai> did anyone come up with ideas from the discussion yesterday about how this should be done?
<jdub> haggai: i'm writing a process document about it
<jdub> probably something to propose to the TB next week
<haggai> ok
<Kamion> mako: kind of crossover; I don't think it needs to be approved by the TB necessarily
<haggai> yeah, I think there is a community element to it
<Kamion> I guess process for accepting/rejecting proposals needs approval
<mako> haggai: do you want to give an executive summary of the problem at least and maybe people can communicate/discussion with jdub etc for something to bring to the TB next week?
<elmo> btw, we just  lost bof room upstairs
<mako> or anyone else that is willing to do it?
<jdub> elmo: hrm?
<lamont__r> well, parts of the bof room...
<lamont__r> network connectivity crap
<jdub> mako: (task to write it was assigned yesterday)
<haggai> ok sounds like I missed a vital part :)
* haggai crawls back to hole
<mako> jdub: is it worth doing a summary of the problem
* mako missed that BoF
<jdub> haggai: i think you're right that it is both CC and TB relevant
<haggai> summary is basically, there isn't one.  A procedure, that is.
<jdub> mako: yeah
<jdub> currently we are in perpetual seed freeze
<jdub> with matt and i confirming changes as required
<jdub> at the moment, we are confirming things that are required to continue development
<jdub> such as new dependencies, etc.
<jdub> but we also have the open proposals (see SeedManagement on the wiki)
<jdub> there is no documented process or responsibility for ensuring those proposals are dealt with
<mako> so it's a process issue for getting packages added to hoary basically?
<jdub> added to base/desktop/supported
<jdub> we'll have to have a bigger discussion about universe and multiverse
* mako agrees with Kamion that this is a CC issue as well as a TB one
<mdz> mako, basically
<mdz> we know what the requirements are for the process
<mdz> but it has not been written yet
<elmo> mdz lives
<mdz> barely
<mako> for those that are not in mataro, mdz is sick
<Kamion> and then there's the illness
<mako> and sabdfl is away for a couple days
<mako> Kamion: :)
<Kamion> should be back tomorrow morning or so
<jdub> (ripe for coup_
<mako> jdub: alright, so we should definitely move quickly..
<mako> i mean, with the seed prososal document
<mako> right
<jordi> mdz: ugh, I didn't know :/
<fabbione> (that's because mdz didn't have enough burbon yesterday night btw)
<mako> ok
<mako> so i am happy to do an update for folks not at the conference
<mako> and then we can call it quits unless other people have things
<mako> about 50 of us have arrived in mataro already i believe
<mako> and we've had two days of the conference almost over
<mako> almost all of the canonical employess are here already
<mako> and the rest are guests from spain a and from outside who have come
<mako> we've had a handful of bofs on a number of topics.. yesterday saw the hoary feature goals LOVEFEST
<mako> and a bof on seedmanagement and an effort by myself and some others on input methods
<mako> we are also talking a bit about anothre canoncial project called launchpad
<mdz> the process needs to ensure that proposed packages meet the criteria, which are fairly well-specified
<mdz> and that there is an opportunity for discussion
* SteveA waves at the mention of launchpad
<mako> which includes a number of tools that, in the near future, ubuntu will be using to make making ubuntu easier.. and doing a whole lot of other things that involve working on free software and open source in general easier as well
<mako> we'll be having an open day with lots of other people from barcelona and beyond this satruday
<mako> and other than taht we will focus on a handful of bofs and sessions a day and a lot of hacking :)
<mako> that's my summary :)
<mako> so is there anything else?
<mako> Kamion, elmo?
<elmo> not from me
<mako> alright then..
<mako> next tuesday for the TB meeting and two weeks from today for the next CC meeting
<Kamion> nothing from me
<Kamion> thanks for the summary
<mako> maybe an agenda next week :)
<mako> or in two weeks
<Kamion> let's hope so :)
<Kamion> the CC has been quiet agenda-wise recently
* mako nods
* mako will try to do something controversial
<Kamion> which I'm not entirely sure is a good thing, but we can talk about that later :)
<jordi> mako is mine now. We have... issues to solve.
<mako> Kamion: i share you concern
* mako adjurns the meeting
<mako> thanks everyone for coming!
<mako> laptop bof will be starting for those in mataro
#ubuntu-meeting 2005-12-19
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:robitaille] :  Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: http://people.ubuntu.com/~fabbione/irclogs/ | 14 Dec 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 15 Dec 08:00 UTC:  Dapper Development Status | 15 Dec 19:00 UTC:  MOTU Meeting | 16 Dec 14:00 UTC: DocTeam | 16 Dec 16:00 UTC: Desktop team | 20 Dec, time TBD: Community Council
<jelkner> JaneW: hi jane
<jelkner> i just sent you an email
<ogra> seems Jane is ill ....
<ogra> jelkner, so we'll have to decide if we run without her or postpone, but lets wait until the others are here to decide that...
<jelkner> ogra: ok
<lucasvo> the edubuntu-fr team is arriving
<ogra> yeah :)
<lucasvo> or better say edubuntu-ch
<ogra> thats one reason why i wouldnt like to postpone :)
<ogra> s/one/the/
<ogra> no flint ? 
<jelkner> he's probably still sleeping
<ogra> oh... 
<kjcole> Hullo all.  This morning it's my connection that's a little shakey, and so perhaps instead of Jane dropping out it will be me.
<jelkner> ahh, here he is
<ogra> seems Jane has some stomach problems, so we have to decide if we want to run the meeting without her or postpone it
<flint> you are bad people to have a meeting this early it is 12 degrees F in Montpelier
<ogra> since i invited the edubuntu-fr guys to jin us today i would prefer to not postpone ...
<ogra> *join
<kjcole> Flint, ah how I miss the GWN (Great White North)... NOT!
<flint> well Ollie, I am actually making progress up here, (http://www.flint.com/home) mostly javascript...
<jelkner> ok, less chatter, more focus
<jelkner> what is the agenda
<jelkner> ?
<flint> normally Ollie talks tech and then elkner makes vague promises of documentation.
<ogra> our general one on MeetingNotes plus introduction of the edubuntu-fr
<ogra> team
<claude> who is from edubuntu-fr ?
<ogra> claude, you arent ? 
<claude> i just joined the mailing list this week
<jelkner> why don't we start with edubuntu-fr?
<ogra> i saw that manu_ubu was here this morning, but he seems not to be around now
<aya_> hi all
<claude> ogra: no, he told he couldn't come
<flint> aya_, hi there!  Good morning...
<ogra> could someone of the french speaking guys look if he is in #ubuntu-fr and invite him ? 
<ogra> claude, ah, k
<ogra> so we'll have to do that on the mailing list then
<ogra> fine, then lets jst go through the general items
<ogra> yay, hi manu_ubu 
<claude> hello manu
<ogra> wondeful
<manu_ubu> hello all
<ogra> we were just talking about edubuntu-fr 
<manu_ubu> sorry for late
<kjcole> Roll?  Or unneccessary?
<ogra> would you like to introduce the project a bit  ?
<flint> kjcole, yes I want marmalade and butter on mine next to my coffee!
<ogra> seems there was a edubuntu-fr project developed in parallel to us, they have a good bunch of documentation in french on http://wiki.ubuntu-fr.org/edubuntu/, made their own liveCD and have an own mailing list already
<ogra> my idea was that we should coordinate the forces a bit to not duplicate work and efforts
<ogra> hello ? anyone here ? 
<manu_ubu> yes but the edubuntu-fr is little team for doc francophone
* kjcole is Kevin Cole (and still here)
<Yagisan> I've just arrived ogra
<ogra> ah
* jelkner is Jeffrey Elkner
<manu_ubu> for the develop we not many 
<ogra> i thought my line dropped
* Yagisan is Jamie Jones
<manu_ubu> developper
* ogra is OliverGrawert btw
<Yagisan> btw I may come and go, the riots are still going down here
<manu_ubu> sorry but I am no easy speak english for me
<ogra> manu_ubu mailed the list yesterday with an introduction mail  ...
<claude> ogra: on what aspect would you like to coordinate ?
<ogra> claude, our doc team is focussing on some stuff that might be worth to be translated into french for example ...
<ogra> (thinking of the cookbook)
<claude> yes, i'm interested in that
<ogra> so it would be nice if there could some coordination go on ...
<manu_ubu> we can tested edubuntu dapper and participe to traduction doc
<claude> we talk with kjcole on ubuntu-doc ml
<ogra> additionally there is no need for developing an own liveCD anymore ;) http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/edubuntu/daily-live/ just arrived ;)
<claude> about cookbook format
<manu_ubu> ogra:  super ;-)
<flint> ogra, excellent!!!!
<jelkner> yeah, ogra!
<ogra> so caring for it being right in french would be nice from a technical point of view :)
<Kamion> it's worth noting that those images won't actually work yet, so don't rush to download them - next build should be better
<kjcole> ogra, congrats!
<ogra> dont just grab it, it hs still a bug, the 0051214.1 version should be fine
<ogra> or 20051215 .... whenever it arrives....
<ogra> but its there :-D
<mhz> hi all, I apologyze for being this late
<Yagisan> no worries mhz
<manu_ubu> can I use this liveCD for create us liveCD localized apllications on FR ?
<jelkner> i will need to go soon, so is there anything you need me for?
<ogra> mhz, edubuntu-cl, meet edubuntu-fr :)
<kjcole> mhz, under discussion: merging efforts of the French team
<claude> so first point : manu_ubu should keep in contact with official team to develop an official french LiveCD
<Yagisan> mhz: basic intro, and ogra made a livecd so far
<ogra> jelkner should we move the doc point to the top then ? 
<jelkner> please
<ogra> Yagisan, Kamion made it :) 
<ogra> only with my packages ...
<mhz> thanks ogra kjcole Yagisan for the update :)
<jelkner> issues with the cookbook:
<Yagisan> thanks Kaimon too :)
<jelkner> 1. setting up on launchpad
<ogra> jelkner has the stage ...
<ogra> jelkner, thats rosetta ? 
<jelkner> bzr?
<jelkner> there is already an svn repository
<jelkner> it is all too confusing
<ogra> aha, ok ... i thought rosetta for translators
<jelkner> we aren't ready for translators yet
<flint> jelkner, Jeff, what kind of problems are you having setting up on launchpad?
<jelkner> it is too much of a moving target
<claude> ogra: launchpad is a set of tools
<claude> rosetta is one of the tools
<ogra> so you want to put it in a bzr archive to get rid f duplication ? 
<mhz> kjcole: jelkner: my html is as good as my chineese :)  Is it ok if I use Moin and save pages as HTML ? (too messy?)
<claude> my point is that cookbook should be in same format that official Docteam
<claude> we then can use same procedures
<kjcole> ogra, pre-rosetta.  History: I grabbed the tuxlab svn from Jean Jordaan (original author), not knowing there was an ubuntu svn.  converted to lore and bzr, and put it on my web server.
<claude> same translation infrastructure
<ogra> kjcole, do the contents differ much from the svn version thats already there ? 
<claude> but i understand that kjcole has already done much work
<flint> kjcole, what is the url for your and jeff's stuff kevin?
<jelkner> while this is a cookbook, the best thing at present might be for kevin and i to setup a working environment and set of proceedure before others join the effort
<kjcole> ogra, but i cannot get push to work.  I'm assuming if the branch were out on launchpad, "bzr push" would work.
<jelkner> that is the number 1 issue
<ogra> claude, note that launchpad will offer a supermirror based on bzr in the future ... so bzr would be better for  putting it there
<jelkner> we need to remove the svn repository and create a bzr repository on launchpad that permits collaboration
<claude> yes, i think Docteam will also migrate to bzr
<ogra> yup, understood
<claude> but the problem for me is not SVN or bzr
<ogra> kjcole, feel free to ping me off meeting to sort the push stuff
<jelkner> cool
<jelkner> that's really all we have right now
<kjcole> ogra, jerome sent mail to the list indicating unhappiness that we aren't basing off the ubuntu svn.  He saw enough differences.
<ogra> ok, fine ... its progress :)
<ogra> hmm, would have been nice if he snet it to the edubuntu list too ...
<jelkner> kjcole: let's continue doing what we've been doing for now...
<ogra> i for example dont read -doc
<jelkner> take *all* existing versions and try to merge them
<jelkner> as best we can
<claude> the problem for me is : lore vs docbook
<ogra> i think you guys want to do the work, so pick the tools you think are right ...
<kjcole> jelkner, works for me.
<jelkner> and discourage the creation of any new versions until we are ready
<ogra> sounds good to me
<jelkner> great, kevin and oliver will talk off line about bzr setup
<jelkner> and then we'll move forward
<jelkner> that closes the documentation item...
<kjcole> claude, as I understood from several docteam gurus, they will convert to Docbook (or whatever else may come).
<ogra> claude, whats that issue ? can you describe it a bit more for a non doccie ? 
<flint> kjcole, wait a minute. what is the url where the source is currently loaded? 
<claude> docteam has an infrastructure for packaging and translation based on DocBook
<ogra> which also integrates with yelp, right ? 
<claude> DocBook is a SGML based format specifically for documentation
<claude> ogra: yes
<flint> claude, lore is a documentation gizmo for python...
<kjcole> flint, go to launchpad and search for cookbook.  It's a bzr branch,  so you'll  need bzr to play.
<ogra> would it be possible to convert between the two formats ? 
<claude> yes, i don't say that docbook is better tan lore
<claude> i think we should coordinate with docteam choices
<flint> claude, my feeling is lets get the dog dancing, and then get it in costume... :^)
<claude> maybe for dapper+1 ?
<jelkner> claude: i'm sure docbook is better than lore, if by "better" you mean more standard, more featureful, etc
<jelkner> the problem is it is *much* more difficult to learn
<ogra> the question is how does lore integrate with the current desktop and help structure 
<jelkner> i agree with flint
<kjcole> flint, specifically https://launchpad.net/products/edubuntu.cookbook
<jelkner> you can learn lore in about 5 minutes
<jelkner> someone will be able to convert lore to docbook later
<ogra> the important thing is that we can get it in a shippable format in the end ...
<flint> kjcole, thanks kevin!!!
<jelkner> in the mean time it will make collaboration much easier
<ogra> which would be docbok as i understand ...
<ogra> if its possible to convert between these two formats i see no issue
<jelkner> expecting contributors to know docbook will effectively prevent contributions
<jelkner> including from me
<claude> ogra: if the conversion can be automated...
<jelkner> so unless someone else steps forward and says "i know docbook and agree to teach everyone else"
<ogra> the only thing is that the endproduct must be integratable in the desktop and the CD 
<jelkner> then we can't use it now
<jelkner> ogra: lore produces nice html very easily
<claude> jelkner: i'm not an expert in Docbook, but i could give some help
<ogra> so please investigate possibilitys to convert lore to docbook ...
<ogra> jelkner, if all docs are in docbook, we shouldnt ship html ...
<jelkner> ogra: lore is just an xhtml subset
<jelkner> shouldn't be a problem
<flint> claude, these guys are serious python fanatics, consider lore a passing perversion...
<claude> lol
<ogra> i donc care what you use during development, but the edn product should be integrateable
<claude> my concern is about translation
<kjcole> I had started learning docbook, but in previous IRC doc-team meetings I was told not to worry about markup, and just go with whatever.  Since Jeff's already savvy with Lore, that seemed logical.  (Plus as Jeff's mentioned, getting up to speed on Lore takes very little time or effort.)
<jelkner> i'm the guilty party here (don't blame kevin)
<flint> ogra, verily, and my understanding of lore is that this will be a necessary step.
<claude> with docbook, we have scripts that generate .po for pushing into Rosetta
<ogra> lest not discuss docbook vs lore, lets just see if we can get one to the other ...
<flint> ogra, the conversion from lore to docbook is not going to be a unique problem :^)
<jelkner> claude: how do we edit the text?
<claude> text of docbook ?
<jelkner> the cookbook
<jelkner> i don't know docbook
<claude> by hand :)
<jelkner> then i can't do it
<jelkner> so we need someone else to write the book
<jelkner> that is my point
<claude> there is editors, but no good one is open source for now
<jelkner> the tool gets in the way
<jelkner> books on docbook are huge
<ogra> jelkner, you dont need to write it in docbook ...
<ogra> but please look around for a conversion tool
<jelkner> we would spend what limited volunteer time we have *trying* to learn the tool
<claude> jelkner: i understand your position
<ogra> i think the point this boils down to is only getting the two wrlds together 
<jelkner> please let us continue the way we have been
<flint> ogra, I will look around for a conversion tool.  It is a properly perverse task..
<ogra> flint, might be ....
<jelkner> flint: it shouldn't be hard
<claude> we must still talk with jsgotangco about that
<jelkner> lore already produces docbook output
<ogra> but imho its oly a parser that sucks in one and spits out the other 
<jelkner> ogra: yes
<jelkner> it really shouldn't be a problem
<flint> jelkner, jeff you write, I worry about docbook.
<jelkner> flint: thanks!
<ogra> so then its fine ... just produce docbook output after you commit changes and the docbook guys can run their .po script on it ...
<flint> I will be right back...
<ogra> i dont really see the prob here
<claude> ok, let's try convert the actual version
<claude> put it somewhere in the bzr branch
<claude> we'll see what we can do with it
<ogra> i think bzr even has hooks where you could put a python plugin that converts automatically after each commit
<ogra> so its merely just a technical prob 
<ogra> and thats easy to solve ...
<jelkner> ok, i need to run
<ogra> thanks jelkner 
<jelkner> i'll let kevin fill me in
<jelkner> see you all next week!
<claude> see you
<ogra> ciao :)
<kjcole> jelkner, you wish.
<manu_ubu> see you
<ogra> manu_ubu, what would you use for a fr translated version ? 
<claude> i think we should try if possible to use rosetta (manu_ubu ?) 
<manu_ubu> oh the transaltion it s juste for the livecd-fr for tool
<manu_ubu> yes use rosetta
<manu_ubu> if possible
<claude> i have the experience of trying to coordinate a translation "by hand"
<ogra> ah, thats fine then ...
<claude> never again :-(
<mhz> .oO(claude will use Moin :D ... sorry I couldn't help it)
<ogra> mhz, :P
<ogra> ok, any other doc related issues ? 
<mhz> yes!
<mhz> do we consider 'doc' the wiki pages?
<ogra> go ahead then (we switched the order today)
<ogra> sure
<mhz> then How will we handle some pages needing to be translated?
<ogra> we consider doc the cookbook, any other documentation as well as the wiki
<mhz> DefaultEnglish/OtherLanguages?  or edubuntu.ubuntu-cl.org/SpanishPages?
<claude> i think it's the task of each loco team
<claude> we do so for Ubuntu Wiki
<ogra> yes, and since also ubuntu-fr has a edubuntu section, that sounds reasonable
<manu_ubu> for the fr doc , we have local wik
<flint> ok back...
<mhz> claude: I agree, as long as US/EN/AU etc, do use same /data and Latinamerican people use one /data too
<ogra> i'll ping the german community if someone can show up next week as welll
<ogra> i know ther germans also have made some own docs ...
<claude> mhz: yes, that must be language oriented, not country
<mhz> ogra: indeed, ok then. solved?
<ogra> my concern here is that its not only translations, but every group brews theor own docs ...
<mhz> yup
<ogra> and we should find a way that every group knows what the other is doing so we dont duplicate work 
<manu_ubu> yes
<ogra> since there might be valuable docs in german the fr or es guys dont even know about
<flint> ogra, the trick with writting docs is to have a structure to the book.  If the structure is common then all is well.
<mhz> and then we have not only LoCo translations double work but also another potential problem... MANY LoCo Teams consider themselves LoCo teams and registered diff domains
<ogra> flint, there are different wikis on different loco servers 
<ogra> and different doc sections as well
<mhz> flint: ogra: manu_ubu: the good thing about wikis is we can use InterWiki feature
<ogra> assuming all use moin, right ? 
<mhz> hehehe, i guess it works for any wiki
<mhz> not sure
<ogra> ah, great
<manu_ubu> no moin code on wiki fr
<ogra> same in germany i think
<mhz> we gotta find ou about interwiki then, it is extremely useful for the cases being discussed
<ogra> mhz, would you take the task to check if we can do interwiki stuff between fr, de, es and the main wiki ? 
<mhz> yup
<mhz> sure
<ogra> thanks :)
<mhz> i 'own it' :D
<ogra> hehe
<flint> mhz, interwiki, never heard that one... sounds interesting.
<ogra> more doc related tasks ? 
<mhz> flint it is indeed, very much
<manu_ubu> use single wiki is good ide but no easy 
<ogra> manu_ubu, not a single one but getting a relation running between the ones we have ...
<ogra> they all have grown on their own it seems ...
<manu_ubu> ah sorry ..my bad english :/
<flint> manu_ubu, my feeling is that getting the content in many languages available is the first step...
<ogra> flint, yes, but also find out who has which content the others dont have and just translate it to your lang
* mhz would like to discuss about edubuntu loco teams when it is appropriate.
<ogra> ok, we're running out of time ...
<ogra> mhz at the end we have community on the agenda
<mhz> yup
<ogra> so let me give a quick tech update ...
<mhz> oh, please!
<ogra> as you all saw, the liveCD is on its way 
<kjcole> ogra, launchpad or a similar registry would be a nice central place for translation teams to point each other.
<ogra> thats a major step :)
<kjcole> ogra, sorry. move on.
<ogra> kjcole++
<manu_ubu> ogra: ok
<flint> well from a community perspective, I miss JaneW!
<ogra> lest do that via mailing list
<ogra> flint, yes, me too ...
<ogra> ltsp:
<ogra> flint will love that....
<ogra> themeable ldm is in dapper ;)
<ogra> the multiarch patch from Yagisan too 
<Yagisan> :-D
<flint> ogra, thank the heavens!!!
<ogra> sound support is done on my side and at mdz for review
<ogra> i guess we'll get it if he comes backl from holiday
<flint> ogra, do I dare mention removable storage?  
<ogra> the install cd is in pretty good shape for the early time of the release schedule ...
<flint> mdz went to brazil eh
<ogra> but there is a bug i havent found yet that prevents nfs mounting from working :(
<flint> I never liked nfs...
<ogra> so ltsp is useless, but if you have capacity to test it, please do so ...
<ogra> as well as the next liveCD build ...
<flint> my testing facility should be up by xmas
<ogra> we need as many testers as we can get , so if yomeone has the bandwith and some HW to test on, please, please, please do
<ogra> most problematic again is powerpc
<Yagisan> I hope qemu has matured enough so I can add powerpc on amd64/i386 to finish off the multiarch.
<ogra> (i'm still waiting on one to be shipped)
<ogra> flint, on the local device front there was not much progress yet ...
<irvin> did i make it? crappy dial-up
<flint> my powerpc platform is locked in a sea container
<ogra> but due to the fact that most of my other specs are done, i'll concentrate on it now
<manu_ubu> ogra: if you need testing on ppc, i can help because i have many machine apple
<kjcole> irvin, you *seem* to be here... ;-)
<flint> ogra, ollie that is excellent news, if i can help email me.
<mhz> ogra: any design or ideal procedure steps to follow?
<mhz> (in the wiki?)
<mhz> to test i mean
<ogra> note that there is also a distro sprint at end of january where mark locks us all in a room to do concentrated work ...
<ogra> mhz, dholbach has set up a testing plan i need to enhance for edubuntu, i'll mail the list
<ogra> manu_ubu, wonderful !!
<mhz> ogra: thankz
<claude> i have to leave now, bye
<flint> ogra, Mark does not have the same Sadisim as JaneW... :^)
<manu_ubu> bye claude
<ogra> ciao claude 
<flint> claude, thanks for comming!!!
<claude> :)
<ogra> flint, she'll be there too i suspect ;)
* irvin checks logs
<kjcole> Speaking of sprints, any of you coming to PyCon in TX? It may be an opportunity for Edubuntu folks to do some face-to-face work.
<ogra> ah, and student control panel was adopted by a gentoo guy who made it work wioth classic ltsp ... (as a side note)
<flint> kjcole, ...all my ex's live in texas...
* mhz would love to, as usual bu those things are soooo far from here
<ogra> ok, tech update done ...
<ogra> anything from the artwork side ? 
<mhz> ogra: gentoo guy? wow, then you made nice code!
<kjcole> mhz, I feel the same about stuff taking place far south of here.  Especially in colder weather.
<mhz> kjcole: hehehe
<mhz> ogra: yes
<ogra> no artwork updtate ? 
<ogra> ah
<ogra> shoot then, we are late
<mhz> I sent an email a few minutes ago the list
<flint> ogra, ars gratia artis...
<mhz> no need to shoot
<ogra> oki... so we can discuss it on the list ? 
<mhz> yup
<ogra> great ...
* mhz knows we are always running late :)
<ogra> so then there is only community left
<mhz> yup
<kjcole> ogra, and community issues on the list too right?  
<mhz> but we could also use the list if we need to close 
<flint> the live iso is the big news today...
<ogra> kjcole, if its quick, we can do it here now ...
<ogra> else lets resort to the list ... i think the a11y team wants the room soon
<ogra> so all to long to discuss now ? 
<mhz> ogra: ok, then how can we deal with LoCo teams (self called) who register country domains not ubuntu-country? If we have edubuntu loco teams, we'll need their help to host
<flint> mhz, edubuntu and ubuntu locos should be the same IMHO...
<ogra> hmm thats something we hould coordinate ith smurf and the community council i guess
<ogra> flint++
<mhz> ogra: okis
<manu_ubu> Sorry, I can't stay on channel, bye
<mhz> flint: 'should' but in reality are not.
<ogra> edubuntu locos should work with the ubuntu locos at least
<mhz> bye manu_ubu 
<kjcole> Noooo! Not the CC!  ;-)  Been there, done that.
<ogra> bye manu_ubu, thanks for coming :)
<manu_ubu> bye
<ogra> kjcole, whats wrong with that ? 
<flint> kjcole, and if you are not good you will have to go back... :^)
<ogra> kjcole, you dont need to bring up everything at the CC
<ogra> if you have a loco around, just work with them and make a edubuntu loco ...
<mhz> indeed
<ogra> the CC is only needed for the initial creation and to solve issues the loco cant solve itself
<flint> and if there is not a loco around include ubuntu within the edubuntu community.
<ogra> *** sidenews from -devel: <Kamion> ogra: Edubuntu live ready for testing ***
<mhz> wow!!
<ogra> so GRAB IT !!!
<Yagisan> ogra: torrent ?
<ogra> flint, exactly
<ogra> Yagisan, no idea if its seeded ...
<ogra> http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/edubuntu/daily-live/20051214.1/
<flint> ogra, you said tomorrows build would be better for the live or is today OK?
<ogra> but there is a torrent file
<\sh> Yagisan: check tracker.ubuntu.com:6969
<kjcole> ogra, with the LoCo naming issues brought up at CC, things sounded settled, but I'm not sure they are.  But that's another issue, for another place and time.
<ogra> flint, thats the one you can test :)
<\sh> sorry torrent.ubuntu.com:6969
<ogra> (the url above)
<Yagisan> thanks
<ogra> kjcole, yes, and something we cant solve in a edubuntu meeting ... i fear thats a CC thing still
* Yagisan can't see any edubuntu live torrents
<ogra> ok then, lets close the meeting and move general chatter over to #edubuntu ....
<mhz> okis and ML
<kjcole> Done.
<ogra> thanks all for coming :)
<flint> Yagisan, there are iso.torrents listed on the page...
<ogra> meeting adoujned
<mhz> thanks ograW :D
<ogra> lol
<aya_> bye all :)
<flint> Ok I move we adjourn so I can get a cup of coffee, anyone second this motion?
<mhz> bye
<mhz> me!!!
<ogra> i'll write up the notes on the wikipage as usual
<Yagisan> bye all. See you in #edubuntu in a few minutes
<flint> ogra, thanks ah... coffee!!!!
* mhz moves to #edubuntu and hopes kjcole is around
<ogra> yeah, coffee :)
* Yagisan off to get get coffee
<jsgotangco> done with meeting?
<ogra> yup
<Yagisan> jsgotangco: yep -> #edubuntu
<Yagisan> damm, too slow
<klepas> drat
<klepas> missed the meeting =\
<ogra> klepas, i'll put the notes up during the day and there are the logs at http://people.ubuntu.com/~fabbione/irclogs/
<klepas> ogra: thank you
<klepas> ogra: any chance of having an art meeting?
<ogra> separately ? 
<klepas> what do you mean separately?
<ogra> do you mean for edubuntu or for the art team ? 
<klepas> i mean, here, with all of the art teams
<ogra> why not .. start organizing one :)
<klepas> ogra: i've tried
<klepas> twice now
<klepas> and nothing came of it :(
<klepas> would you be able to... support the motion for an art gathering here>
<klepas> *?
<ogra> i could support it, but i'm horribly busy ....
<ogra> probably jdub could jump in
<klepas> i'll catch jdub on #slug
<klepas> but yea, it just needs a push
<klepas> and having it posted on the fridge would be lovely
<flint> later...
#ubuntu-meeting 2005-12-20
<pitti> Hi
<JaneW> hello
<dholbach> hi
<jbailey> *yawn*
<doko> good morning
<JaneW> jbailey: what's the time there?
<jbailey> 03h00
<JaneW> ouch
<daniels> kamion's our glorious leader today, innit?
<JaneW> yup
<JaneW> so should be swift and to the point \0/
<pitti> jbailey: you would certainly agree to shifting the whole cycle 3 hours backwards, right? :)
<daniels> JaneW: you appear to have an overly big head ;)
<daniels> pitti: no way man, that means I get meetings at 0400
<jbailey> pitti: I don't see how it would matter.  It would just make the next one 4am, wouldn't it?
<jbailey> Or is it a 6 hours rotation?
<JaneW> it was 4am for me last week :P
<JaneW> is kamion here yet?
<doko> daniels: you don't have meetings at 4am? we should change that ;-P
<jbailey> pitti: My goal is to go out dancing on these nights and do my update from my 770 at some access point.
<doko> Kamion has vacations?
<infinity> Yes.
<daniels> doko: no tany more I don't
<infinity> And if you try to take them away from him, he WILL hurt you.
<daniels> jbailey: six-hour rotation
<pitti> jbailey: great idea
<Mithrandir> infinity: he was going to show up today for the meeting, AIUI.
<JaneW> I shall start with my best BenC impersonation...
<ogra> *yawn*
<JaneW> BenC Hey. I don't think I'm going to be able to stay awake another 1.5 hours
<JaneW> BenC here's my status:
<JaneW> BenC * Major work this past week: Processed over 400 bugs on the kernel (all of them), closing ~175 (either by fixing, confirming they were fixed or closing because of inactivity). Needed this to be done before Flight 2 so that it was easier to process incoming bug reports.
<JaneW> BenC * testing-server-hardware: Not started: Need to begin putting together the test suite.
<JaneW> BenC * preventing-hardware-support-regressions: BLOCKED: Automated build system is under development. However, the free space on concordia is not stable enough to use (fluctuates daily). Current i386 build environment takes 3+Gigs (build+git-repo+ccache).
<JaneW> BenC * ubuntu-server-kernel: In progress: Mostly done. Just need to add a server target for non-i386 architectures. These are much more simplistic than than the i386 kernels. Should be included with the next kernel upload (2.6.15-9.11).
<JaneW> everyone happy with that?
<infinity> Ecstatic.
<JaneW> daniels: you want me to cut and paste you too?
<daniels> yeah :)
<daniels> ta
<JaneW> daniels: this week: xorg rc3, fix a few FTBFSes, chase down bizzare xorg-server bug that makes it unusable on i810, start on making xserver-xorg maintainer scripts more clear, fix xvfb bugs, take the plunge and upgrade to udev new world order
<JaneW> next week: leave tomorrow, fix xorg-server harder, continue on making scripts clear
<JaneW> x-roadmap: keep on truckin'
<JaneW> blocked: none
<JaneW> xorg-server bug  -- core server bug that renders the whole thing unusable, and the inbuilt backtrace stuff doesn't give any BT at all, and gdb hangs when I attempt to attach to it.  \o/
<JaneW> x-raodmap: Mostly there, just tracking continued version updates.  keep on truckin'
<daniels> yeah, so that makes the server a no-go for now.  i'm trying to track it down with the other upstream guys at the moment.
<JaneW> I know, why don;t I just do the meeting on my own!
<infinity> JaneW : Sure, I'll /msg you my update. :)
<daniels> release roadmap for xorg has us doing rc4 ... right now, actually, otherwise known as 'rc seriously'.
<JaneW> daniels: that sounds pretty bad, is there a resolution in sight?
<doko> daniels: do you know the status of the name sync of the gl/glu packages in unstable/dapper?
<daniels> so we should be done with that fairly soon.  so hopefully the server will be fixed, which will fix a whole lot of bugs people are currently blaming on nautilus, and then I can get to fixing the scripts.
<daniels> JaneW: yeah, it's only within the last two weeks, so we've got a fairly small target in terms of finding the culprit.
<JaneW> daniels: ok good
<infinity> daniels : Oh, also, xserver-common needs to get built from somewhere other than xorg sources.  The core -> common dep was stuck in as a stopgap because the world broke without it.
<JaneW> side-track are ALL merges done yet?
<daniels> doko: i'm working with gravity, the general view is that we'll do a, er, nmu of mesa sooner rather than later.
* pitti did
<daniels> infinity: xserver-common will cease to exist the next time I upload xorg.  what's the actual issue? missing /etc/X11/X?
<doko> daniels: thanks!
<JaneW> ok dholbach 
<infinity> daniels : Missing X binary, missing dexconf.
<dholbach> merges: http://tinyurl.com/dgvf2
<dholbach>  * inclusion-of-docs: uploaded an improved update to dapper - breezy-update yet to come
<dholbach>  * formal-test-plans: some clarification on the pages, is wiki/Testing now - more Tests and more Media tests to come (Media meeting today)
<dholbach>  * this week done: gnome 2.13.3, bugs
<dholbach>  * this week to come: more bugs, {motu,media,desktop} team meeting, talk at umeet.uninet.edu
<dholbach>  * next week: bug day, more bugs, merges?
<infinity> daniels : The latter being particularly crucial, the former breaking GDM's default config.
<JaneW> dholbach: thanks
<daniels> infinity: *shrug*, xserver-xorg should dep it for dexconf and xorg-common should dep it for the symlink.  but dexconf is moving over to xserver-xorg anyway.
<JaneW> doko
<doko> this week:
<doko> - toolchain-roadmap: minor updates (binutils, gcj-4.1), amd64-biarch (still blocked)
<doko> - toolchain-dapper+1: blocked by preparation of wanna-build and buildd infrastructure (currently ongoing)
<doko> - openoffice.org: support work
<doko> - merges: doing more merges not on the list; we don't have merge reports where debian and ubuntu have different tarballs (will be addressed before next merge before UVF (Keybuk)).
<doko> next week:
<doko> - python-roadmap: python-central update (delayed again)
<JaneW> doko: openoffcie is listed as proposed - is it a Dapper Goal?
<JaneW> doko: and java roadmap is still not approved...
<doko> JaneW: I hope it is, but that spec is informational anyway. I'll prepare separate topics for the next report
<JaneW> but it's low priority
<JaneW> doko: ok thanks
<mvo> JaneW: can I go last please? I mixed up times 
<JaneW> mvo: sure
<daniels> (s/xorg-common/xserver-xorg-core/ in my last sentence.  headdesk.)
<JaneW> ok fabbione : * server-candy: announce is out, community is growing fast. md5sum
<JaneW> client did his first run yesterday. Upload to the archive will happen
<JaneW> relatively soon. It is blocked by a couple of bugs, one missing feature
<JaneW> and admins to create the server side. Wrote the PostfixCandy spec for
<JaneW> mdz but it looks like not doable. /etc in RCS has been discussed with
<JaneW> bzr guy. New spec wrote to address the remaining issues.
<JaneW> * ubuntu-cluster: no progress this week. Still needs testing! People
<JaneW> should help a bit here.
<JaneW> * probe-for-root-filesystem: no progress this week.
<JaneW> * boot-from-usb: blocked by probe-for-root-filesystem.
<JaneW> * merges: zlib - still pending libc6-i386-dev, one minor pending but
<JaneW> it's no hurry at all.
<JaneW> * last week: a lot of md5sum client and server-candy work, prepared for
<JaneW> today's talk.
<JaneW> * next week: keep going server-candy full speed. kernel security.
<JaneW> hopefully finish some cluster tests and start working on new cluster
<JaneW> crack. Friday 16th i will start a bit later than usual but i will pick
<JaneW> up the hours the same day.
<infinity> JaneW : Me next?
<JaneW> infinity: hit it
<infinity> last week:
<infinity>  - Did almost nothing I said I'd do last week, instead concentrating on making sure *-desktop and *-live were installable, so we could build CDs, getting linux-restricted-modules into shape, as well as other bugfixings and odds and ends.
<infinity>  - Made vga16fb and usplash default to a more sane resolution that seems to work well for everyone, this became the default in Flight-2.
<infinity> next week:
<infinity>  - Getting the toolchain-dapper+1 stuff going for doko on the buildds
<infinity>  - Everything else I said I'd do last week, but didn't.
<JaneW> haha
<JaneW> iwj
<iwj> Firefox maintenance:  Working on a new release right now, to ship libnspr/libnss from firefox, and other fixes.  BreezyFirefoxStartPageTranslation didn't happen and Matthew East and I haven't quite settled on the scheme for Dapper.
<iwj> DefaultApplicationsFirefox: no change since last report.  Firefox needs more other work too.
<iwj> AutomatedTesting:  I have implemented the first part (basic chroot-using virtualisation script).  Will probably pick up the rest after Christmas.  It would still be nice to have that straw man from Robert Collins.
<iwj> ThinClientLocalDevices: spec is still in Drafting.  *BLOCKED*
<iwj> DeveloperDocumentation: Not started, not blocked.
<iwj> Holiday: tomorrow (Friday) is my last working day of 2005.
<pitti> iwj: yay nspr/nss ;)
<dholbach> pitti++
<iwj> pitti: It's real joy there in the build system, I can tell you.
<infinity> <laugh>
<daniels> build systems are all shit.
<pitti> everything in ffox is real joy, I believe
<JaneW> cool
<JaneW> jbailey: 
<jbailey>  * ToolchainRoadmap: Delayed from last week to this week.  doko found a bug in my assumptions (I had forgotten about ldconfig biarch love.  Decided to do LinuxThreads/NPTL biarch for this too.  Both are now passing all tests.  Now that flight-2 is out, should be next 24h.
<jbailey>  * ToolchainRoadmapNg: After the glibc biarch, will start to evaluate glibc needs. Want to start collecting feedback on dropping pre-i686 per  outstanding issues .
<jbailey>  * General: glibc merge delayed by this as announced previously.  Punting grub bugs also delayed - it was a busy week.  This week, I plan to see which of the locale bugs were fixed with the Belocs merge.  I have a slight suspicion that it's all of them.  Oh yeah, and OMG, it's 3am.
<JaneW> jbailey: no it;s not it 3:15 :P
<JaneW> jdub??
<jbailey> JaneW: Sure, you can include that under my status. =)
<iwj> Can I suggest at this point that Matthew East and I should talk to langpack/rosetta maintainer about BreezyFirefoxStartPageTranslation and what to do for dapper ?
<JaneW> iwj: sure, 'do it'
<infinity> iwj : That would be a pitti and a Carlos, probably.
<iwj> infinity: Ah, thanks :-).
<pitti> yep
<jbailey> iwj: I'd like to catch up with what that issues are, because for Breezy it seemed unsolvable.
<pitti> probably me
<JaneW> jdub has example-content, via e-mail he said: Yeah, sorry - too much traveling to attend the meetings or get anything done on it. I plan to start doing stuff on it as soon as I return home from OSDC , and will hopefully get a huge chunk of it done before Christmas break.
<iwj> mdke: AYT?  Let's not have it now but when is good for you ?
<JaneW> kamion: still not here?
<JaneW> I'll get an e-mail update from him...
<iwj> Isn't he on holiday still ?
<dholbach> JaneW: i will talk to jdub about that... we need it for the media-related parts of formal-test-plans
<Mithrandir> iwj: "still" as in, "for the last 12 hours", yes.
<JaneW> yes, he said he was going to pop in for the meeting, might be sleeping though...
<doko> jbailey, infinity: looks like I should put some toolchain work on my plan for next week ;)
<JaneW> dholbach: yes please do, might spur him along...
<dholbach> JaneW: i hope so :)
<JaneW> keybuk?
<iwj> mithrandir: I mean, since the last time we asked about him :-).
<JaneW> ok I'll be keybuk too: udev-roadmap: done; we're pretty much at the stage where the bugs we're
<JaneW> finding are turning out to be kernel bugs rather than udev bugs now.
<JaneW> hardware-activation: having some issues with network interface
<JaneW> activation, making sure we bring up things like static tun/ppp/etc.
<JaneW> interfaces without blocking on ethernet which are handled by udev, but
<JaneW> nothing serious
<JaneW> streamlined-boot: underway, was waiting on Flight 2 and now that's out
<JaneW> will be uploading bits over the next few days
<JaneW> network-magic: various discussions, have a keen guy looking at the
<JaneW> atheros issues for us
<JaneW> krstic?
<JaneW> lathiat?
<JaneW> sivang?
<JaneW> Mithrandir?
<JaneW> anyone?
<Mithrandir> openoffice-amd64: no changes
<Mithrandir> live-cd-performance: progress with the simplified live cd, as in, I have bootcharts and we can start chopping time off the boot by making changes such as unionfs vs devmapper, cloop vs squashfs, etc.
<Mithrandir> one-true-path: no progress
<Mithrandir> simplified-livecd: in place, working, released with flight 2.  Needs polish and cleanups as well as usplash integration
<Mithrandir> media-integrity-check: no changes, but now unblocked.  Should be trivial
<Mithrandir> network-authentication: no progress
<Mithrandir> general: I've been working on the simplified live cd infrastructure.  It has come a long way and is pleasant to work with and easy to test.  Some pieces are still missing.
<Mithrandir> next week: some vacation, but before that I'll look at getting simplified live finished up, and if that goes well, continue with media-integrity check and poke at the live-cd-performance stuff
<iwj> Oh, Kamion says he'll be in this meeting.
<Mithrandir> blocked on: nothing in particular, I have plenty of stuff to do until I get from VAC
<iwj> I mean, in warthogs.
<sivang> JaneW: hi, I'm here. been way busy at work, there hasn't been much changes since last time, I hope to be able to do some work on it on weekend time.
<JaneW> Mithrandir: so your block is gone..?
<Mithrandir> JaneW: yes.
<JaneW> sivang: ok great, thanks
<JaneW> Mithrandir: good.
<Mithrandir> JaneW: at least, no blocks I'm aware of.
<JaneW> ogra: you're next and sorry for missing yesterday's meeting - we must talk after this...
<ogra> * thin-client-sound: 95% implemented, code submitted to mdz for review, spec corrected accordingly, awaiting approval
<ogra> * thin-client-local-devices: no progress
<ogra> * thin-client-memory-usage: no progress
<ogra> * thin-client-faster-startup: fine on recent HW http://people.ubuntu.com/~ogra/edubuntu/dapper-20051212-1.png, spec changes awaiting approval
<ogra> * gnome-screensaver-default-image: pinged mark about images, no answer yet, will ping again :)
<ogra> * general: X breakage on the thin clients turned out to be only trident needs stilla debug session, mdz's suggestions for thin client sound implemented, flight2 tested on amd64/i386, themeable ldm finished, approved and included, ltsp multiarch patch approved and in dapper, no progress on new edubuntu-artwork yet, no more hwdb-client work yet. inspect X autodetection on thin clients for possible speedups per mdz suggestion not done yet, only found
<ogra>  that most of the preseed fixes we got from debian are not working at all. found that thin clients cant NFS mount anymore with the new dhcpd we ship due to a silly RFC (No. 2131) interpretation of the "siaddr" field by dhcpd upstream.
<ogra> next weeks plans: nag mark more for gnome-screensaver-default-image space pics, implement thin-client-memory-usage (which will also fix the powerpc bug for ltsp), fix up edubuntu-artwork, find out if the preseeding X stuff is solvable and solve it for the options where possible, trident X debugging, hwdb-client bugfixing. find solution for upgrades of dhcpd.
<daniels> which speedups?
<ogra> daniels, X ?
<daniels> x autodetection, yes
<sivang> that shifting times thingy is killing me...
<sivang> (of the meetings)
<ogra> mdz wants to put the debconf communicate call into one call instead of 20
<ogra> zhaz should speed up quite a bit
<pitti> ogra: dhcpd upgrade breaks?
<ogra> pitti, yes, for nfs mounted root filesystems
<JaneW> ogra: no movement on spec approvals yet? Still waiting on mdz for reviews?
<ogra> pitti, http://wiki.ltsp.org/twiki/bin/view/Ltsp/DhcpdSiaddr
<pitti> ogra: omg, dhcp disturbs nfs? that sounds scary
<ogra> JaneW, mem usage is approved, sound is done ... but mdz had no time before holiday to review and faster startup needs minor changes
<ogra> pitti, it is ... :/
<ogra> JaneW, for local devices i still need mdz and sbalneav to get together
<JaneW> ogra ok thanks.
<JaneW> damn, has that not happened yet?!
<ogra> nope
<JaneW> ogra: the need is high, but it doesn't sem to be getting prioritized...
<JaneW> *sigh*
<JaneW> pitti: next
<pitti> not much to say this week, but
<pitti> this week: heaps of security updates, main inclusion reviews, and a few bits of package fixes, etc; no time to pursue specs
<pitti> next week: get PHP security update done with Adam, catch up with my long neglected bug mail, try to debug printing stuff a little
<pitti> automatic-printer-conf: PLAN: investigate hal-cups-utils from Fedora for exporting cups configuration to hal
<ogra> JaneW, it it (and always was) a low/mid prio spec
<ogra> *it is
<pitti> however, there are some more security updates to do, so there won't be much spec work next week either
<pitti> *grumble* ffmpeg *grumble*
<seb128> pitti: hint for next week: avahi promotion :p
<JaneW> pitti: ok thanks *pat pat*
<JaneW> seb128: 
<Riddell> ooh, yes please on avahi
<seb128> hide-admin-tools-to-users: has been implemented previous week but the summary of the previous meeting has no mention of what I wrote on it, should I mention it again?
<Kamion> d'oh, sorry I'm late, slept in
<seb128> video-playback: gstreamer0.10 uploaded, gst-plugins-base0.10 almost ready: will be uploaded today, will continue on that next week
<seb128> other: GNOME 2.13.3
<seb128> next week: video-playback and dapper-desktop-plan
<Kamion> I'll give my update at the end
<pitti> yay gst 0.10
<seb128> hi Kamion
<pitti> Morning Kamion 
<JaneW> Kamion: thought that was the case. np... we have continued ;)
<pitti> JaneW: cool, gst 0.10 removes the gstreamer-audio-backend blocker
<seb128> pitti: with gst0.10 you can read songs without gap when switching :)
<JaneW> seb128: short and sweet...
<JaneW> pitti: great
<seb128> s/read/play/
<JaneW> Riddell: ?
<Riddell> last week: kdebindings, kdevelop packaging, xpdf security, simplify-kde, flight-2 testing, revu, finished merges, kubuntu-package-manager design discussions
<Riddell> next week: kubuntu-system-tools, hide-admin-tools-to-users, kubuntu-documentation packaging, poking KDE MOTU into getting all KDE universe packages installable, investigate getting KDE to work with CUPS 1.2
<dholbach> and the kubuntu hug day! :)
<Riddell> dholbach: especially important
<dholbach> .-)
<pitti> eek, zombie smiley
<JaneW> ok just mvo and kamion left ... and then merge nagging :P
<mvo> did:
<mvo> - AutomaticUpgrades: update-manager/python-apt with the required support is in the archive. The actual upgrade tool still needs more work
<mvo> - AutomaticUpdates: integrated into the apt cron job, not yet upload (will do this today)
<mvo> - ThirdPartyPackages: big cleanups in GnomeAppInstall, the code is really a mess. Initial support for channels is in (jbailey bzr is the example channel)
<mvo> - some spec work about "PimpMyLanguageSelector" with jdub
<mvo> - some cmd-not-found work, big problem: "alternatives", very hard to parse, but
<mvo>   required to give useful results for e.g. emacs
<mvo> - HideAdminTools/DapperDesktopPlan spec work for update-notifier
<mvo> - DapperDesktopPlan work for notification-daemon
<mvo> need opinion:
<mvo> - should the "automatic security upgrades" stuff be backported to breezy (in a seperate repository) so that people can test it more easily? 
<mvo> blocking:
<mvo> - support for package recommends: waiting on mdz for a decision
<mvo> will do:
<mvo> - more work on gnome-app-install/ThirdPartyPackages spec
<JaneW> now that's an update!
<JaneW> thanks mvo: sme of your others have been hard to decode ;)
<pitti> mvo: backported to a private archive on people?
<mvo> pitti: yes
<pitti> well, can't hurt in any way :)
<dholbach> JaneW: mvo deserves a golden star now, right? :)
<pitti> since there aren't security updates for dapper yet
<mvo> the problem is that we have no dapper-security currently, so it's a bit hard to test it on dapper :)
<pitti> at least not proper ones, just regular uploads
* mvo agrees with pitti 
* JaneW hands mvo a virtual GoldStar (tm)
<Kamion> I'd go for private archive for now and a post to ubuntu-users@
<jbailey> With Soyuz will those be created at the start of the dev cycle?
<jbailey> I suspect they probably ought to be to make testing things like this possible.
<Kamion> jbailey: dapper-{security,updates} already exist *now*
<Kamion> there's just nothing in them
<JaneW> Riddell: any progress on getting your specs approved?
<jbailey> Ah, okay.
<infinity> Yes, the lack of packages in them makes it hard to test automatic upgrades. :)
<Kamion> ue-gnome-ui: Discussed accessibility requirements with Henrik.
<Kamion> ubuntu-express-bootloader: Was blocked for almost the entire week on the lack of a live CD. I have that now, but only as of yesterday, so just started on getting a reasonable test environment here.
<jbailey> Quick!  Someone find a php hole! =)
* jbailey hides.
<Kamion> cd-bootloader: Lots of bootloader SHINY done in the form of gfxboot-theme-ubuntu; deployed in Flight CD 2. This is now implemented with the exception of keymap selection; that's blocked until I know what kind of input simplified-live-cd expects here. Some bugs reported but nothing major yet.
<Kamion> misc: Flight CD 2 done, which took way too long. Helped Tollef out with casper/initramfs a bit, and eventually decided to switch to simplified-live-cd.
<Kamion> blocked: There aren't enough hours in the day to do Flight CD 2 and real work.
<infinity> jbailey : Fixing about 10 right now.
<pitti> jbailey: I have heaps of them
<Mithrandir> Kamion: simplified-live-cd will do with what I get ATM.. at least, I think so.
<Kamion> Mithrandir: (I think passing kbd-chooser/method= as we would for d-i should be fine?)
<Mithrandir> Kamion: yes
<pitti> Kamion: just saw gfxboot today, shiny!
<Kamion> ok
<Riddell> JaneW: not really, kubuntu-express is pending review from Kamion, who is now on holiday.  kubuntu-package-manager bounty needs approval/decline from mdz who is also on holiday
<Mithrandir> Kamion/pitti: I might want a little bit of hand-holding to generate locales correctly for live.
<pitti> we urgently need a locales discussion
<jbailey> Kamion: Is the flight-2 time stuff that all needed to be done anyway, or is there more that the rest of us need to do to avoid blocking you?
<JaneW> Riddell: ok, hopefully we can get them sorted in early Jan then...?
<pitti> with Kamion, jbailey, doko, and me
<Kamion> Riddell: ah, I hadn't noticed kubuntu-express, will have a look at a free point
<Kamion> jbailey: was mostly horribly blocked on the lack of a live CD
<JaneW> ok let's talk merges http://tinyurl.com/dgvf2
<Mithrandir> JaneW: just a sec
<jbailey> pitti: Scheduled it for any afternoon for you guys and I'm easily there.
<Kamion> jbailey: possibly a little more initiative somewhere could've been taken on getting that done, but I can't really complain because it was all stuck behind the new kernel nonsense for ages
<Mithrandir> I'm wondering if we should have small freezes around the time when we try to get the live cd out, since we too often end up in situations where the live fs generation fails
<Kamion> I would like to have more people randomly testing CD images, though
<Kamion> as in, not just before release - as we discussed before
<Mithrandir> which is _really_ annoying when we're trying to release a cd and busy fixing other stuff.
<Kamion> casper changes now involve rebuilding the live filesystem, as of simplified-live-cd
<dholbach> Kamion: i burned the whole bunch and will get some tests done today
<daniels> Mithrandir: i think just saying 'don't upload shit that will break shit' and compelling everyone to comply via social means will be better than hard freezes
<Kamion> dholbach: thanks
<pitti> I tested today's live, will test today's install, too
<Mithrandir> daniels: possibly, but we didn't even do that, which meant having random gnome packages uploaded broke the world underneath our feet.
<Kamion> yes, hard freezes have the bad side-effect that once you start one everybody expects you to release something soon
<daniels> Mithrandir: so try that?
<Kamion> which might not be appropriate depending on how broken the result is
<Kamion> and it really does impede everyone else's work a lot
<Mithrandir> can we just try "soft freezes", then?
<sivang> Kamion: we need to gather some more people around doing specifically that (testing cd images) , ideally from the community. I would have helped, but currently work stuff don't let me get to it.
<jbailey> Kamion: I'd suggested it before but not seen any interest, but I think maybe an "installfest day" once a month like dholbach does with the bug days might be effective?
<Kamion> I would like it if people uploading packages could try to arrange that those uploads will break as little as possible if they're built on only some architectures
<jbailey> Kamion: Then you know you could set aside that day knowing that you'll mostly be collecting bug reports and triaging errors, etc.
<pitti> especially not pull in new packages from universe
<Kamion> jbailey: I strongly think it needs to be spread out, not concentrated; we already have installfests just before releases
<dholbach> jbailey: i will work more on the testing plan and try to announce it big
<jbailey> Kamion: I was thinking like monthly.
<Kamion> jbailey: the problem we have is that we don't find out about problems often enough
<daniels> (or just ask kamion if you have world-endingly breaking stuff to upload.  i was about to upload 169 packages right as he was trying to release flight 2.)
<dholbach> i thought about enumerating the "topics" in the testplan, so people could refer to them in bugs and we could better keep track of those numbers
<jbailey> Kamion: For me alot of the time it just doesn't occur to me to test the CD mid-release.  There's always other tasks that have to be done.
<Kamion> jbailey: I don't want to arrange that I only find out about problems blocking my (supposedly) two-weekly CD releases on a monthly basis. :-)
<seb128> Mithrandir: when there is a new GNOME every 2 weeks and it take 3 days to package we can't really say "wait a few days before uploading it may break something"
<Kamion> seb128: if it didn't break so badly when i386 builds but powerpc is lagging a bit, that would be lovely
<Kamion> there are a lot of tight arch: all <-> any dependencies
<Mithrandir> seb128: I care less about segfaults and application breakage than pure uninstallability.
<ogra> JaneW, that bugzilla search is broken ....
<infinity> seb128 : Uploading really wasn't a big deal, it was just horribly timed.  If someone had asked you to wait 4 hours, it would have been fine.  So, y'know, "oops". :)
<seb128> Kamion: right, but I consider that an archive bug ...
<dholbach> ogra: i did it, what's wrong?
<ogra> JaneW, or MOM is ...
<Kamion> oh, for goodness' sake, I guess we'll never get anything done then
<seb128> infinity: I'm fine to wait 4 hours if somebody say so, it's just not easy to guess ;)
* Kamion declares all his bugs archive bugs and goes home. :-)
<dholbach> Kamion: what do you mean?
<dholbach> haha :)
<doko> seb128: no, that's packaging, which you can work around
<elmo> seb128: dude, be realistic, the archive has been like that since Debian started
<ogra> dholbach, there are merges that are no merges (i.e. we have newer versions, see kino) 
<infinity> seb128 : The next time we seem to be on a "we want installable livefs's" warpath, I'll be sure to try to warn you.
<seb128> infinity: thanks
<elmo> seb128: it might be nice if the archive didn't work that way, but it doesn't, and it's not ging to get fixed anytime soon
<dholbach> ogra: talk to mom :)
<JaneW> http://bugzilla.ubuntu.com/buglist.cgi?bug_status=UNCONFIRMED&bug_status=NEW&bug_status=ASSIGNED&bug_status=REOPENED&bug_status=NEEDINFO&bug_status=UPSTREAM&bug_status=PENDINGUPLOAD&field0-0-0=product&type0-0-0=substring&value0-0-0=merging&field0-0-1=component&type0-0-1=substring&value0-0-1=merging&field0-0-2=short_desc&type0-0-2=substring&value0-0-2=merging&field0-0-3=status_whiteboard&type0-0-3=substring&value0-0-3=merging&order=
<JaneW> map_assigned_to.login_name,bugs.resolution
<elmo> (err, s/doesn't/does/)
<ogra> dholbach, i do :)
<seb128> elmo: yeah, but changing the whole GNOME to not do that is not trivial neither
<Mithrandir> I think we should move on to merges now..
<pitti> JaneW: are we supposed to catch up with the new merges? that's an awful lot of work at the current time
<doko> pitti: and the list is incomplete
<seb128> I thought merges were low priority for now?
<Kamion> I didn't expect us to be prioritising merges right now, no
<seb128> and we had to catch up again before freeze
<pitti> ok, *phew*
<seb128> s/had/will have/ rather :)
<pitti> I thought that had changed, since JaneW wants to nag about it :)
<Kamion> UVF isn't until 19th January
<JaneW> ok so are all the old ones done then?
* JaneW is v happy to NOT nag
<jbailey> Ugh, only 1month to UVF?
<Kamion> not all, but most of them are
<ajmitch> are the merge bugs with assignee as debzilla free to take?
<seb128> they were previous week before starting the automatic bugs again no?
<Kamion> I count nine old ones
<doko> Kamion: we still haven't merged all packages at least once, the ones with differing tarballs in unstable/dapper are missing. is it too late to touch these just before UVF?
<Kamion> ajmitch: yes
<ajmitch> (within reason)
<ogra> mdz said explicitly that merge bugs should be set to P5 prio 
<ajmitch> ok
<Kamion> doko: Scott said there was a whole *one* of those that MOM hadn't reported
<ogra> so i didnt expect to prioritize them now 
<doko> Kamion: oh, I didn't know that
<Kamion> so that issue doesn't concern me at the moment
<pitti> ogra: new merge bugs only, not the old ones
<Kamion> doko: he said it to you :-)
<ogra> and MOM filed bugs for packages that are never in ubuntu ...
<ogra> *newer 
<Kamion> everyone, please do check for merge bugs with bugzilla ids less than 20000
* doko hides, didn't see that ...
<ogra> (see my comment about kino)
<dholbach> ogra: it'S about merging, not about newer stuff
<Kamion> those are the old ones: Riddell has 1, infinity 3, doko 2, pitti 1, jbailey 1, fabbione 1
<ogra> dholbach, there isnt anything to merge ... it should sort out the 0 byte patches ... i guess there are more
<Kamion> I realise they're all the really hard ones
<pitti> cdrtools is still broken
<pitti> I won't upload it
<Kamion> pitti: hmm?
<jbailey> Kamion: glibc is intentionally delayed (per status report)
<pitti> blocked: new upstream version does not work as normal user
<pitti> ^ status whiteboard
<Kamion> pitti: is that still true as of the most recent Debian upload?
<dholbach> ogra: then merge the changelog, or sync if there's nothing to be changed
<pitti> Kamion: I didn't test it in the last week, I'll do again
<ogra> dholbach, ??
<Kamion> the last one dates from 2005-12-04
<ogra> dholbach, what should i sync with a 0 byte merge patch ? 
<dholbach> ogra: merge manually?
<infinity> Kamion : Mine are all intentionally delayed, as reported last week.
<ogra> dholbach, 0 == zero byte, there is not even a changelog entry to merge ...
<pitti> Kamion: the changelog doesn't seem to indicate any fixes in that direction, but I'll try
<infinity> Kamion : Though I could merge Thunderbird just to shut up MOM while I work on 1.5
<doko> Kamion: gjdoc: sync requested
<Kamion> and fabbione's is still blocked behind i386 biarch I believe
<dholbach> ogra: you don't need to teach me, what 0 means - there were changes in debian - i looked at it a while ago
<Kamion> ok, any other business?
<JaneW> no additional meetings were requested
<JaneW> does anybody need to list a required discussion?
<pitti> we need the locales discisson
<pitti> but that can be informal
<pitti> we just need to settle a time
<jbailey> pitti: Need to pick a time for it, though.
<daniels> would X breakage next week be a particular problem to anyone?
<JaneW> should I note it?
<Kamion> I'm off these two days, and next Wed/Thu/Fri; is everybody involved around on Monday?
<pitti> jbailey, Kamion, doko: would this afternoon be fine for you?
<daniels> not code breakage, just as I attempt to reshuffle the configuration madness into something that isn't shit
<Kamion> oh, Mithrandir isn't IIRC
<seb128> daniels: I prefer having a working X to get GNOME work done, but that's just me :)
<Kamion> pitti: no, I'll be out of the house
* dholbach -> phone
<pitti> Kamion: Monday would work for me
<pitti> jbailey, doko: Monday 1500 UTC?
<Mithrandir> Kamion: I'm around on Monday, yes.
<doko> pitti: Monday is ok
<daniels> seb128: that wasn't a general question, that was more a 'is there anything specific next week that means I should wait for a week or so'
<pitti> great
<Kamion> ok by me
<jbailey> pitti: FIne for me.
<pitti> cool
<JaneW> who all is it Kamion, pitti, doko?
<seb128> daniels: oh k, not afaik so :)
<JaneW> and Mithrandir
<pitti> JaneW: yes
<Kamion> JaneW: and jbailey
<mvo> pitti: does it touch language-selector?
<pitti> mvo: *could*, not sure
<pitti> mvo: wanna join?
<ogra> dholbach, so i should make a changelog entry that reads "nothing merged" and upload a new ubuntu version? what for ?
<mvo> might be a good idea if it does, yeah :)
<pitti> seb128: hm, I can't add anything to my evo calendar
<pitti> mvo: is 1500UTC on monday fine for you?
<mvo> yes
<jbailey> pitti: Make sure you have the right calendar selected.
<Kamion> daniels: next week's not too bad; I *was* thinking of a very quick CD release next week in case live CD issues in Flight 2 need fixed up before the holidays
<seb128> pitti: I can't even switch to the calendar tab
<jbailey> pitti: It's sometimes non-obvious.
<Kamion> but that will be early next week by necessity (vacation time and all), if it happens at all
<ogra> dholbach, sorry, but i dont get what you want ...
* pitti slaps jbailey
<pitti> jbailey: no, my evo freezes right after starting it
<infinity> Kamion : If you end up on the LiveCD warpath again next week, warn me.
<Kamion> will do
<Mithrandir> Kamion: flight 2.1 on Monday or Tuesday would be nice.
<jbailey> pitti: Smacking me around isn't like to get me to help you fix it, my friend. =)
<Kamion> I might just delegate it :-)
<Mithrandir> since I'm hoping we can have language selection and such in there
<pitti> jbailey: heh, sorry, that was meant for evo upstream :)
<infinity> Uh oh.
<infinity> Kamion : The word "delegate" scares me, when I know how many people in the cdimage group aren't on vacation... :)
<Kamion> So it should. ;-)
<infinity> Kamion : Unless you meant you were delegating to Riddell. :P
<seb128> pitti: I'm supposed to get a patch to try within an hour
<pitti> seb128: <3
<seb128> pitti: and the "within an hour" is from half and hour ago
<Riddell> I'm not in cdimage group yet as far as I know
<infinity> Riddell : Dang.
<Riddell> oh, actually maybe I am
<Kamion> uid=2552(jriddell) gid=2500(warthogs) groups=2500(warthogs),2504(cdimage),2511(porting_team)
<Kamion> are so
<infinity> Ah-ha!
* infinity takes next week off.
* Riddell feels the delegation
<JaneW> ok me goes to update report...
<JaneW> Kamion: go 'home' ;)
<pitti> thanks guys
<Kamion> JaneW: thanks for chairing; I *did* set my alarm to 7:30, honest ... I think my body knows it's on vacation.
<jbailey> "Dave, this conversation can serve no purpose anymore. Goodbye."
<Kamion> thanks everyone, have a great holiday
<pitti> Kamion: enjoy your holidays, have a merry christmas
<Kamion> Spend some time *away* from the computer (and that's me talking). :-)
<JaneW> Kamion: it's ok really. relax and take a break - you deserve it!
<ogra> haha
<pitti> must ... fix ... bugs *nng*
<mvo> have fun Kamion 
<ogra> Kamion, enjoy your holiday and thanks again for the liveCDs :)
<daniels> Kamion: okay.  upgrades would probably be the issue rather than fresh installs.
<Kamion> elmo: incidentally, taking alex out of the cdimage group might be nice for my nerves
<Kamion> I keep seeing it and going "WTF?"
<dholbach> sorry, got a phone call about linuxdays.lu
<dholbach> hello everyone?
<seb128> ho dholbach
<dholbach> 'lu :)
<seb128> hi
<seb128> salut :)
<dholbach> or was it 19:00 utc
<dholbach> siretart: ping
<dholbach> slomo_: ping
<LaserJock> hi dholbach 
<dholbach> hi LaserJock
<slomo_> dholbach: 19:00 UTC... in 1 hour ;)
<\sh> 19 utc means 20 :)
<JohnnyMast> ellow
<dholbach> i see
<\sh> motu meeting or motu media meeting?
<dholbach> media and then motu
<LaserJock> hmm, an hour ago fridge.u.c said and hour and now it says 58 min.
<slomo_> media is 19:00, motu 20:00
* JohnnyMast waits untu motu
<JohnnyMast> MOTU Meeting
<JohnnyMast> Start: 2005-12-15 19:00
<JohnnyMast> End: 2005-12-15 20:00
<siretart> hey
<JohnnyMast> the other way around
<\sh> Timezone: Etc/GMT
<siretart> yeah, media meeting was scheduled 1900 utc
<seb128> like motu one?
<siretart> There is some confusion
<siretart> I announced a Media Meeting at 1900 utc
<siretart> and I put MOTUMeeting in the subject line, which is confusing. 
<dholbach> i wonder who had the idea of 20:00 utc then
<dholbach> :)
<siretart> dholbach: perhaps some german, who mixed utc and local time ;)
<dholbach> yeah, maybe ;)
<dholbach> it wasn't me
* dholbach runs
<siretart> lol
<rbelem> hello people :)
<slomo_> hi rbelem :)
<rbelem> hey slomo_ how r u?
<slomo_> rbelem: tired... but otherwise ok :) and you?
<\sh> so it's only media meeting?
<rbelem> slomo_: fine... but without time these days to stay online... many free-lance jobs ;-)
<rbelem> slomo_: will we discuss about audio and video editing tools too?
<slomo_> rbelem: whatever is important... sure... feel free to add it to the agenda :) but actually i don't know what to discuss there... what did you have in mind?
<rbelem> slomo_: hum... i do not know very well too 
<seb128> dholbach: motu meeting is a 20:00 european time according to the fridge webcal, ie: same time as the media one
<slomo_> rbelem: ok ;)
<rbelem> slomo_: maybe list all these software in wiki, and software that might be added
<slomo_> rbelem: hm, there's nothing to discuss imho :) just add it to universe candidates or package it yourself ;)
<rbelem> :)
<sistpoty> hi folks
<Nafallo> morning sistpoty 
<JohnnyMast> hi sistpoty
<slomo_> hi sistpoty :)
<sistpoty> hi Nafallo, JohnnyMast, slomo_
<JohnnyMast> :)
<JohnnyMast> /massreply
<Nafallo> hm
<sistpoty> hehe
* dholbach puts up a BIG    THIS  IS  THE  MEDIA  MEETING    sign :)
<Nafallo> so now that you said hi to me twice I have to say hi again? :-)
<JohnnyMast> no 1 min remaing
<dholbach> hope we won't have annoyed to many crazy motu people :)
<JohnnyMast> :p
<sistpoty> erm, dholbach: maybe we could discuss two more items you and siretart sent to the ml?
<dholbach> sistpoty: sure... there should be an agenda somewhere
<dholbach> ... hum ...
<sistpoty> last time i checked, it was the old agenda on MOTUMeeting
<dholbach> no, it was some *Media* page afaik
<siretart> hey folks!
<sistpoty> hi siretart
<siretart> huhu sistpoty 
<slomo_> ok, hi everybody :)
<slomo_> dholbach: this one: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTUMedia/MeetingInvitation  ?
<siretart> I think think we can begin, 
<Nafallo> hi slomo_, siretart :-)
<siretart> ok
<slomo_> when someone has some last minute ideas for the "agenda" feel free to add it _now_ to the wikipage above ;)
<siretart> I'm not sure if everyone is aware of the MOTUMedia team
<sistpoty> slomo_: looks like it... do we also want to discuss 1) open motu day (dholbach) and 2) universecandidates vs. support tickets (siretart iirc)?
<siretart> currently, I think slomo and me are the only active ones
<siretart> and crimsun of course
<dholbach> sistpoty: errr, this is more of a media meeting
<siretart> we want to improve the general situation of mutlimedia support in dapper
<sistpoty> dholbach: ah, k.
<dholbach> sistpoty: there was some confusion around the mail title
<siretart> and this meeting is some sort of big call for help
<dholbach> sorry for that
<siretart> we have summarized our current biggest problem on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTUMedia/MeetingInvitation
<siretart> lets start with the first point
<siretart> slomo did an really awesome job and repackaged the mplayer package completly!
<siretart> ROCK!
<dholbach> :)
<slomo_> sistpoty: maybe it can be done afterwards... we'll see :)
<siretart> *applause*
* JohnnyMast gives an applause :p
<raphink> oooh I'm late
<raphink> :s
<sistpoty> good work, slomo_!
<siretart> one important change was to separate mplayer-skins package
<siretart> which I uploaded a few days ago
<siretart> the problem with the package: elmo rejected my first upload
<slomo_> before we had exactly one skin shipping with the mplayer package
<Nafallo> Blue :-)
<siretart> because most of the skins (including the one we had!!) had no sufficient licence statement
<siretart> the current mplayer-skins package has only 2 skins
<siretart> which are both gpl
<siretart> we urgently need more and better skins for mplayer
<siretart> if somebody sees a better and properly licenced skin, please add it to the mplayer-skins package!
<Nafallo> don't we have an artwork-team? :-)
<siretart> Nafallo: I'm not sure if they are active
<dholbach> Nafallo: good point :)
<siretart> does anyone know about the status of the artwork team?
<lllmanulll> Well,
<slomo_> or if someone has some arts skills feel free to create your own one for inclusion in the mplayer-skins package :)
<lllmanulll> I'm part of it
<siretart> do we have by chance a member of the artwork team here?
<siretart> ah hi lllmanulll!
<lllmanulll> And I'll be happy to contribute, but my opinion is that we need good leadership
<siretart> lllmanulll: do you think the artwork-team could help us with this problem?
<Nafallo> we could always send a mail to ubuntu-art@l.u.c :-)
<lllmanulll> Well, the best way is to send an email to the list with the request :)
<lllmanulll> If the art team is given a precise, short-term goal, I'm sure a few people will give it a try
<siretart> ok
<lllmanulll> Might not be masterpieces, but we can always try :)
<slomo_> well... it wouldn't be really precise... we just need a cool looking skin, no matter what style it is :)
<siretart> lllmanulll: could you draft such a mail? I'll happily review and send it, if you don't mind
<lllmanulll> Yeah, "a cool skin for mplayer" is already precise enough
<lllmanulll> sure
<siretart> ok. thank you lllmanulll 
<siretart> just draft it on the wiki and hand me the link to it
<ajmitch> hi
<lllmanulll> ok, no problem
<siretart> other suggestions to mplayer-skins?
<dholbach> hey andrew
<siretart> hi ajmitch 
<sistpoty> hi ajmitch
<Nafallo> morning ajmitch 
<siretart> none?
<raphink> hi ajmitch 
<siretart> ok, then lets proceed to our Multimedia Testplans
<dholbach> yeah!
<slomo_> ok, the multimedia test plan... we need to get some testing procedures decided for dapper to prevent regressions and be aware of what stuff is working and what isn't working... first of all we need good and free sample content... as different in formats and settings as possible
<dholbach> jdub is working on example-content package
<dholbach> we should try to help him as good as we can
<Nafallo> slomo use to send me non-free stuff to try and play ;-)
<dholbach> provide him with links of stuff we *can* ship in such a package
<dholbach> nice streams are cool for the test plan too
<slomo_> sure, that's what i planned to say next :)
<Nafallo> magnatune is nice :-)
<sistpoty> how many different stuff could be made just by the capabilities of mencoder itself?
<dholbach> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Testing/Media has some ideas on the testing
<dholbach> it was a *very* quick draft :)
<slomo_> but first of all we need to list everything possible and decide which parts are ok to be taken :)
<dholbach> so if you have an idea, what we should test there as well, that'd be great
<slomo_> sistpoty: many... but some formats are not supported yet (sorry, no list yet)
<siretart> dholbach: yeah. to proposal here is to make a list of codecs we want to support
<McFergus> are you going to use the new gstreamer ?
<dholbach> so we can integrate it into the normal test plans
<siretart> dholbach: as well as a checklist, how to test if the codec/the media file actually works in our supported players
<dholbach> McFergus: we'll test what is available
<siretart> dholbach: and what player do we want tested
<siretart> this is what I want to discuss now
<dholbach> i kept the test plans generic
<dholbach> so kubuntu, ubuntu, xubuntu, ... can use them all alike
<siretart> the obvious ones are totem-gstreamer and xine
<siretart> do we want to have mplayer tested as well?
<dholbach> *nod*
<siretart> and what player did I miss?
<dholbach> hmm
<dholbach> vlc
<dholbach> the one that never let me down ;)
<McFergus> amarok ?
<slomo_> yes, these 4 are probably enough... even less could be ok
<slomo_> amarok uses xine or gst afaik... but i could be wrong ;)
<dholbach> most important is what we have in main
<siretart> McFergus: I never tried amarok, but isn't it a music only player?
<Nafallo> amarok, rhythmbox, muine, banshee etc...? :-)
<dholbach> what we officially support
<sistpoty> xmms
<siretart> ok
<raphink> amarok uses xine, artds and gstreamer 
<Nafallo> gst and xine stuff is whatever player I guess...
<raphink> s/artds/artsd/
<siretart> raphink: so we don't need to test amarock and kde players, because they are caught by xine
<siretart> right?
<dholbach> which are the tests we want our users to do? are there different ways to get players crashed? :)
<raphink> siretart: amarok is a music only yes, but it does much more than usual music-only players
<Riddell> siretart: they use gstreamer not xine by default
<raphink> and kaffeine is xine/gstreamer aswell
<slomo_> dholbach: i would say... throw as many different streams/files in the player and report what breaks and why... and if it worked before ;)
<siretart> dholbach: I'd propose to have compile list of media files, which have to be downloaded and tested
<slomo_> but for that the sample content is needed
<siretart> s/have compile/compile/
<siretart> right
<siretart> but we need to tell the sample content guys which codecs and which media files we actually want to have tested
<siretart> and we need to actually collect and fetch those files
<dholbach> siretart: s/guys/jdub/ :)
<dholbach> maybe we should list suggestions on a wiki page?
<dholbach> links to those files?
<siretart> dholbach: well, we cannot tell him 'please include all available codecs in sample content - kthnxbye'
<slomo_> definitely, yes
<dholbach> suggestions :)
<dholbach> he will picky himself :)
<siretart> dholbach: I think we should delegate this to a team of perhaps 2 or 3 ppl
<siretart> this delegation would be to compile a list of media files listing codecs and media players which we want to be tested
<dholbach> it's easier, if everybody adds something
<slomo_> dholbach: i would say that we put important stuff (i.e. theora, vorbis, ...) in the sample content package but have a central package listing many more files
<dholbach> and the probability of getting things done ;)
<siretart> dholbach: right, everyone is invited to contribute to that list
<dholbach> right
<dholbach> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ExampleContent
<dholbach> that's the spec
<siretart> Riddell: what media player engine does KDE use by default if not xine?
<dholbach> it lists some crazy stuff already
<Riddell> siretart: gstreamer
<siretart> sorry, I don't know much about kde :(
<siretart> Riddell: ah, so we don't need specific KDE tests, right?
<Riddell> well KDE uses arts, kaffeine and amarok use gstreamer
<siretart> if it works in totem-gstreamer, it must work in KDE too, right?
<Riddell> siretart: in theory yes
<dholbach> hihi :)
<siretart> :)
<siretart> ok. 
* dholbach knows the feeling after 246927496742967429769426 totem bug report
<dholbach> s
<slomo_> ok, then let's handle players with the same backend like they're the same ;)
<slomo_> for content tests
<siretart> so does someone volunteer to compile these lists?
<dholbach> maybe we should track the state of players
<sistpoty> wasn't there noatun for a long time? is it still there?
<siretart> (this basically means to prepare a wiki page and start with a few sample entries)
<slomo_> dholbach: maybe a table... content x player?
<siretart> yeah, I was also imagining a table
<dholbach> slomo_: yeah and version
<siretart> version?
<dholbach> slomo_: so we see, if things explode
<dholbach> regression
<dholbach> s
<dholbach> stuff that used to work :)
<siretart> ah, version of player
<slomo_> dholbach: hmm, a 3-dimensional table would be hard ;)
<raphink> how would you do that in a 2D table dholbach ?
<siretart> well, that would a link to malone bugs then
<siretart> so, nobody volunteers to start these pages?
<slomo_> what about adding a date when something breaks? last date when it works and date when it was found to be broken?
<raphink> anybody wants to implement a table in openGL ,
<raphink> ?
<dholbach> slomo_, raphink: data redundance :)
<raphink> ;)
<siretart> raphink: I don't think so ;)
<raphink> dholbach: ok ;)
<siretart> ok. I will do that then
<siretart> further comments to this topic?
<dholbach> siretart: which opengl chart are you implementing atm?
<slomo_> thanks siretart :) when you need help just ask me
<siretart> dholbach: no, I was talking about wiki pages
<dholbach> yeah, which one?
<siretart> dholbach: the player x content/codec table
<dholbach> cool
<siretart> any further questions or suggestions?
<dholbach> so https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Testing/Media is ok for you all? i can add it to the normal test plans?
<slomo_> and we should decide about what needs to be put in there when something breaks... just a "broken" with link to malone?
<slomo_> dholbach: fine with me
<siretart> dholbach: I think this should preferably go with test plans, but it also touches example content
<dholbach> slomo_: i think it should suffice to say "broken since 1.5.6-6ubuntu23 ([link to bug] )
<dholbach> siretart: there would be instructions on how to obtain the example content package
<siretart> dholbach: but we from the motumedia team want to do some QA to ensure that we don't miss important codecs for dapper
<siretart> dholbach: I understand they would be uploaded to the archive?
<dholbach> yes
<siretart> so they would be in dapper anyways, what part did I miss?
<dholbach> siretart: if we take our case to jdub, i'm sure he'll be happy to see our points
<slomo_> we can't include everything in the example contents package
<slomo_> that would be just too much
<dholbach> if we have links to random stuff on a wiki page, that'd be nice too (especially streams)
<siretart> slomo_: I think we should discuss this point when we actually have some sample content
<slomo_> siretart: ok
<sistpoty> MOTURadio :)
<siretart> lol
<dholbach> yeah!
<siretart> but good point
<slomo_> hehe
<siretart> streaming should be tested too, will add that to the list
<siretart> ok. further questions/suggestions?
* dholbach thinks
<siretart> ok
<dholbach> apart from doing testing, what as a team do we want to achive?
<slomo_> and we should add a note that when someone finds something that doesn't play it should be added to malone without fear ;)
<dholbach> we want more people, we want better support for crazy players, what else?
<dholbach> bug upstream guys, keep track of those bugs :)
<dholbach> slomo_: ++
<slomo_> hmm, allow playing of everything legally possible ;)
<JohnnyMast> add a cert rss into malone 
<raphink> :)
<JohnnyMast> with an option to sync it to malone 
<siretart> dholbach: we want to improve the multimedia experience by both sample content and testplans
<siretart> I think thats enough work for the motumedia team
<dholbach> sure
<siretart> ok
<siretart> lets talk about the next point, okay?
<dholbach> i just wondered, how we'd appear to the rest of the world
<dholbach> ok
<dholbach> sorry
<dholbach> yes
<slomo_> and we want support for codecs we're currently missing... and maybe new media packages we "need"...
<siretart> the next points are to discuss which codecs we are actually talking about
<slomo_> but that's probably something for universe candidates
<dholbach> slomo_: that'll be your job ;)
<siretart> I'd really like to have some list of the most common codecs, which are supported in main, which in universe and which in multiverse
<siretart> and we have to differentiate between encoding and decoding only
<dholbach> maybe slomo_ should tell us about good, bad and ugly
<dholbach> :)
<slomo_> i could start this list at the weekend
<siretart> it doesn't need to be a list containing every existing codec we may or may not support, the most common ones are okay
<siretart> so this is a call for help, too. Please help us to compile those lists and ask folks who actually have a clue
<siretart> slomo_: that would be great
<siretart> slomo_: a wiki page containing a table as a start would be a really great start
<slomo_> but i would add everything, not just the most common ones
<Nafallo> yea, I was thinking about that good, bad, ugly. hasn't gstreamer already done the job for us or did I miss something? ;-)
<slomo_> and even stuff we don't support currently
<siretart> Nafallo: do you have a link?
<siretart> or does anyone here has some relevant information which could help us compiling such a list?
<Nafallo> siretart: planet.gnome.org is where I got info about it :-)
<slomo_> Nafallo: partially, yes... but bad are just broken plugins ;) and ugly contains stuff that also could be in main
<Nafallo> damn :-P
<sistpoty> relevant as in I know certain codecs/formats, but irrevelant as I don't exactly know about the goodness/badness of many of them
<siretart> Nafallo: oh, I see. But browsing through past blog entries is,,, unconvienient at best ;)
<raphink> would that be useful ? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_codecs
<Nafallo> siretart: indeed :-)
<slomo_> raphink: yes, sure... thanks :)
<siretart> perhaps we should note in that compilation of codecs WHY which codec is in which part of the archive
* siretart looks
<Nafallo> we should let slomo handle this. he just had the transition with libxine :-P
<dholbach> :)
<slomo_> Nafallo: not yet... i hope to get it done at the weekend
<siretart> I don't want to load slomo more than necessary. 
<Nafallo> slomo_: even better then. remove codecs and note why on a wikipage ;-)
<siretart> he has done a really awesome job on both mplayer and xine!
<slomo_> siretart: yes, the reasoning would be nice too... a table listing codec, supported where, why... something i forget?
<siretart> slomo_: I think thats enough. 
<siretart> other comments?
<slomo_> maybe a "working"-column?
<dholbach> which licenses we have explain to whom? :)
<siretart> slomo_: if it isn't working, mark it in the 'supported where' coloumn
<raphink> dholbach: version of the licence and comment from RMS ?
<siretart> supported where: nowhere
<slomo_> dholbach: it's mostly not license related... it's just ugly patents ;)
<dholbach> raphink: yeah, that'd be nice "Comments from RMS - collec them all!"
<raphink> haha
<siretart> dholbach: the most difficult issues are political and legal issues of companys threatening with patents
<dholbach> yeah :(
<dholbach> wow, we must have a 6-dimension table now... "MediaTEAM - taking you to the 6th dimension..."
<raphink> evil patents 
<siretart> dholbach: we cannot do much about them as MOTUs, we can just say 'its gpl, but we don't want to distribute them because we fear prosecution...'
<slomo_> dholbach: well... 2 tables ;)
<dholbach> slomo_: i know :)
<siretart> dholbach: why 6 dimension table?
<dholbach> because i was kidding and for the nice slogan's sake
<dholbach> excuse me
<ajmitch> heh
<slomo_> let's name the "why" column legal assessment and note below that we're not lawyers
<raphink> ;)
<siretart> raphink: the wikipedia listing seems like a useful start. thanks!
<raphink> wikipedia has nice lists :)
<siretart> slomo_: I think to note 'patent encumbered' is enough
<siretart> perhaps we should rather note if the codecs are problematic due to companys actively enforcing their patents or if they are not enforcing them
<slomo_> siretart: everything is patent encumbered probably ;)
<slomo_> yes, that's what i wanted to put in legal assessment
<siretart> e.g. I think mp3 playing is relativly okay
<raphink> even linux with end patent encumbered
<raphink> s/with/will/
<siretart> ah, okay, then we are having the same thought
<slomo_> siretart: ok as in not distributable on CD
<siretart> ok
<dholbach> which wiki pages do we have now? i mean which names do they have?
<slomo_> hm, and we should distinguish again encoding/decoding... we support for example decoding of alac but no encoding
<siretart> this brings me another question
<siretart> do we want to have encoding tested, too?
<slomo_> dholbach: no idea yet :) what about Media/ListOfSupportedCodecs, Media/CodecState, ...?
<siretart> or just decoding?
<slomo_> encoding too, definitly
<dholbach> slomo_: /Codecs /Status? :)
<slomo_> what would we do if vorbis encoding breaks at some point and noone notices it ;)
<Nafallo> hi crimsun :-)
<slomo_> hi crimsun :)
<crimsun> hi Nafallo, slomo_ 
<raphink> hi crimsun 
<crimsun> (& etc. ;-)
<dholbach> :-)
<slomo_> dholbach: Media/Codecs/{List,State}?
<raphink> :)
<slomo_> hmm, seems to be redundant somehow...
<siretart> slomo_: puh. then the testplans needs to document how to actually do the encoding
<dholbach> Media/Codecs, Media/State, Media/Team, Media/NewStuff, Media/P0rn^WLinks, Media/EmergencyPhoneNumbers
<dholbach> siretart: if it's not a common use case, maybe that's something we should test for our owns, what do you think?
<Nafallo> EmergencyPhoneNumbers? :-P
<dholbach> Nafallo: if vorbis encoding breaks :)
<ajmitch> hah
<slomo_> siretart: let's make it low priority then... decoding is definitely more important
<sistpoty> and I tried so hard not to write the p^WLinks word ;)
<siretart> dholbach: would you know how to use transcode to encode something in vidx with ogg/vorbis audio?
<dholbach> siretart: no
<siretart> this is what I mean would be needed for the testplans
<Nafallo> dholbach: we should be able to call sip:slomo@ubuntu.com soon, no? ;-)
<dholbach> siretart: i only tried thoggen and flamed^Wtalked to slomo about it
<slomo_> siretart: but we should list it in the table for reference... whoever wants to test it does it and we do it ourself otherwise
<slomo_> dholbach: and i bugged upstream about it... but got no answer yet :(
<siretart> slomo_: yes.
<dholbach> thoggen, soundconverter, sound-juicer, istanbul are encoders, i know
<siretart> slomo_: but lets not 'officially' make testing encoding a requirement
<siretart> I don't think we have the manpower to do that
<dholbach> siretart: ++
<slomo_> siretart: yes, that's what i mean :)
<siretart> ok
<slomo_> dholbach: mencoder, transcode, gst-launch ;)
<Nafallo> banshee is decoder/encoder? ;-)
* dholbach never used banshee
* dholbach blushes
<Nafallo> food
<siretart> ok. do we have any other business we need to discuss?
<Nafallo> later :-)
<siretart> cu Nafallo !
<dholbach> see you Nafallo
<sistpoty> cya Nafallo
<ajmitch> work calls, bbl
<raphink> bye Nafallo 
<slomo_> we need to create a overview page probably :)
<sistpoty> cya ajmitch
<slomo_> bye ajmitch 
<siretart> bye ajmitch 
<dholbach> bye andrew
<siretart> slomo_: overview page?
<dholbach> slomo_: Media
<dholbach> where we document, what the team does, who's in it
<slomo_> yes... a page that lists all relevant media pages
<dholbach> why we needs more people
<dholbach> Media and Media/*
<dholbach> and we remove all the other ones :)
<siretart> do we want to introduce a wiki.ubuntu.com/Media/ hirarchy or can we take https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTUMedia/?
<dholbach> there's MOTUMeida and Motumultimedia
<crimsun> is it specific to MOTU, though?
<dholbach> siretart: because stuff is in main, i suggest moving to Media
<slomo_> leaving out MOTU seems to be a good idea probably... it's not MOTU specific
<crimsun> right.
<siretart> Motumultimedia?
<slomo_> so just Media and Media/*
<dholbach> yes, i saw it, searching for "Media"
<dholbach> yeah
<raphink> moltumedia ? :
<siretart> dholbach: It is just a redirection to MOTUMedia ;)
* dholbach takes away raphink's crack pipe and puts it to his own pile :)
<dholbach> siretart: oh, right :)
<slomo_> ok, so who wants to start the "main" page? :)
<dholbach> i think the team will overlap with the desktopteam and the kubuntu team and the motu team, ... but i think that's fine
<siretart> ok. Then who wants to create a framework/hierarchy Media/*?
<siretart> (please not again slome or me ;)
<dholbach> i'll start Media
<slomo_> thanks daniel :)
<siretart> thanks
<dholbach> slomo_ volunteered to start the dummy tables
* siretart too
<slomo_> dholbach: not dummy... mine will contain some useful content from the beginning... i hope ;)
<dholbach> slomo_: sorry for insulting you, i didn't mean to ;)
<siretart> ok. I think we are done with the agenda then
<slomo_> dholbach: i didn't perceive it as such, don't worry *hug* :)
<dholbach> i was kidding... nevermind me today ;)
<dholbach> ok, so somebody else has to write the meeting minutes
* dholbach whistles innocently
<siretart> There was some confusion that we'll have a MOTU Meeting after this meeting
<raphink> can I drop a word about the queue on REVU?
<siretart> which would be now (or in 2 minutes)
<siretart> ah raphink wants to talk about revu
<raphink> hmmm
<sistpoty> hm... do we need a motumeeting now? or would it be better to schedule this at another time?
<siretart> I'd suggest that we adjurn now the Media meeting and have a quick MOTU Meeting right now
<slomo_> dholbach: will you notify me when the Media page is started? :)
<raphink> well the queue on REVU is growing fast
<dholbach> so who writes the "The newly instated Media Team decided that ..." mail?
<dholbach> slomo_: you can start Media/Bla anyways now :)
<dholbach> slomo_: but i'll do
<siretart> dholbach: I'll try to write a summary about this meeting, okay?
<dholbach> siretart: ROCK
<dholbach> thanks a lot
<slomo_> dholbach: oh, ok :)
<slomo_> i have logged everything and could put the log up somewhere if needed
<siretart> ok.
* siretart logs, too
<siretart> ok
<siretart> lets talk about revu, then, okay?
<sistpoty> raphink: your stage now ;)
<dholbach> http://people.ubuntu.com/~fabbione/irclogs/ logs too
<raphink> sistpoty: sure
<raphink> well I surely haven't been using REVU for long so I don't know about its past
<raphink> but the list of packages to review on REVU is growing very fast lately
<raphink> and packages are hardly approved
<raphink> REVU days were planned last weekend
<raphink> but not a lot of reviews have been done
<raphink> (I might be wrong on this)
<raphink> talking with packagers, it seems the common opinion is that the web interface is not efficient enough 
* dholbach reviewed some, but not overecstatically much
<raphink> yes you did quite a lot dholbach 
<dholbach> i don't think it's a web interface problem
<dholbach> i think it's more a problem of raising awareness of packages
<raphink> dholbach: well very often new packages are reviewed first
<dholbach> if somebody asks me to review something, then i find the time to do it
<raphink> and packages that have already been approved once may wait weeks to be approved by another MOTU
<raphink> although they're ready to go
<siretart> i also think it rather a problem that motus are either not aware of the ongrowing list of packages or general overload of motus
<slomo_> and we need more motus with kde knowledge...
<siretart> jepp
<dholbach> but see this usecase: somebody uploads a package, it takes 2 weeks until somebody looks, then it takes 2 weeks to get it updated again - imho that's a problem of communication
<siretart> I had a look at skin before
<sistpoty> hm... for the web interface, I guess that's my fault, because I still haven't written one more line of that revu2 code i promised to write until last week :(
<crimsun> that seems to be a manpower issue, though
<dholbach> crimsun: ++
<raphink> dholbach: from my short experience, packages are fixed much faster when emails are sent to packagers. REVU could do that automatically.
<LaserJock> is there a way to delegate reviewing (not necessarily advocating) more to responsible MOTUWannabes ?
<dholbach> and communication... maybe we need a bot in #ubuntu-motu
<siretart> I think it is fine. not the prettiest package I've seen, but looks okay. But I don't have much KDE experience either
<Riddell> if revu sent out e-mails that would help a lot I think
<siretart> raphink: we (sistpoty and me currently) are working on that
<sistpoty> dholbach, raphink: irc-bot for revu2 and emails are planned... but again, my fault for being lazy 
<dholbach> "new package 123 uploaded - [link] " - "new comment on 234 [link] "
<dholbach> sistpoty: don't beat yourself up
<dholbach> sistpoty: you were quite active otherwise and we're all grateful for that
<raphink> :)
<dholbach> how complicated would it be to write a dirty hack to send out mails?
<sistpoty> hehe dholbach... but I finally want to get to work to it :)
<siretart> dholbach: I have another problem with that
<dholbach> maybe to a new mailing list, a small program, reading the database logs?
<raphink> sistpoty: :)
<\sh> dholbach: no new mailinglist please :)
<siretart> dholbach: we would either have to implement a blacklist or whitelist whom to mail
<sistpoty> dholbach: easy... at least to ubuntu-motu ml
<siretart> dholbach: and an interface to that list
<dholbach> any list
<\sh> siretart: can you sort the list for advocates?
<siretart> because we certainly don't want to spam innocent maintainers
<raphink> yes
<\sh> siretart: so that new packages are shown on the top and not in the middle of the list? or at the end?
<slomo_> what about spamming the one who signed the upload?
<raphink> if Debian maintainers are spammed with REVU stuff they won't like it for sure
<crimsun> out of curiosity, could we colour-code the status of packages? I understand we already have a Comments/Advocate column
<siretart> revu just checks signatures. not if the email is correct
<siretart> this would be more easy when we actually authenticate and use launchpad for that
<siretart> but thats revu2, and the reason why there is no email notification right now
<dholbach> a quick and dirty solution would suffice for now, wouldn it?  sending mails to revu@tauware,de? :)
<sistpoty> siretart: why not sending a mail to motu-reviewers list, with a certain subject so that everyone on the list can filter it, if he doesn't want it... the uploader wouldn't get a mail (yet)
<raphink> crimsun: I'd say we'd need some kinds of levels for packages aswell, rather than just NEW, WORKED ON and OK
<\sh> raphink: revu2
<siretart> sistpoty: hey, thats an easy hack I didn't think of 
<raphink> \sh: great :)
<dholbach> we should prioritize our requirements
<crimsun> I think one thing that makes the revu page kinda daunting is the extremely long list; colour-coding would help at a quick ovreview
<LaserJock> maybe we should have a REVU2 Love Day ;-)
<crimsun> overview^
<raphink> LaserJock: ++
<sistpoty> siretart: still s.o. who reviews a packge should still ping/mail the uploader (by hand)
<raphink> crimsun: ++
<siretart> sistpoty: yepp. The email should contain both submitter and reviewer
<\sh> LaserJock: did you ever read siretarts and ajmitchs revu2 spec crack? it's awesome...:) I needed at least 2 nights to understand it :)
<siretart> lol
<dholbach> :)
<ajmitch> heh
<siretart> \sh: reordering of new and old crack, that sounds reasonable
<LaserJock> \sh: skimmed it
<\sh> well..actually it was the diagram 
<siretart> sistpoty: do you think you could adjust the query?
<ajmitch> \sh: mostly siretart & sistpoty 
<sistpoty> siretart: I can adjust every query ;)
<\sh> ajmitch: you helped siretart a lot at ubz :) 
<ajmitch> sure
<ajmitch> now I get to help coding it
<slomo_> sistpoty: you're the sql god ;)
<\sh> ajmitch: you see..and I'll take you merges ,)
<slomo_> hi tseng :)
<siretart> sistpoty: that would be great
* tseng waves
<siretart> sistpoty: I think there are no uncommited changes left in /srv/revu1
<raphink> hi tseng 
<sistpoty> siretart: ok... will check out a local copy
<siretart> no there isn't
<dholbach> what is the current agreement for the quick and dirty solution, which will all our lives better?
<siretart> so I can probably just update from head
<ajmitch> hello tseng 
<ajmitch> I think most people will have a short break in the next week or so
<siretart> dholbach: I'll create a mailing list revu-comments@tauware.de, and make revu send emails for every comment there
<\sh> dholbach: I think sorting the packages for "packages with one advocates on top of the list"
<ajmitch> so we'll get stuck into things in january
<raphink> hopefully ajmitch 
<siretart> I think that could serve as an interim solution
<dholbach> siretart: that's awesome
<ajmitch> siretart: good idea
<sistpoty> siretart: can't we reuse motu-reviewers ml?
<dholbach> announce it on ubuntu-motu@ please
<siretart> dholbach: after it is implemented, I'll announce it
<siretart> sistpoty: thats an option, too
* ajmitch will be 'working' fulltime on ubuntu stuff in jan/feb, since I'll be jobless ;)
<siretart> sistpoty: but I'm not sure if thats a good idea
<dholbach> sistpoty: maybe the guys uploading a package will only want to know about revu?
<siretart> what do the others think?
<ajmitch> \sh: so you & I can rock the world
<raphink> there are lost of mailing lists, reusing motu-reviewers might be easier
<\sh> ajmitch: welcome on board :)
* dholbach likes it separatedly, but can live with it
<\sh> ajmitch: ah no...I have to find a job very fast..if not..I can shutdown my IT center here
* raphink is jobless too, at least till january
<ajmitch> \sh: hehe
<ajmitch> \sh: I've got enough for a couple of months, and a few potential jobs to look at
<\sh> ajmitch: no joke...serious
<ajmitch> they're mostly in .au though
<sistpoty> well it has to do s.th. with reviewing, so my idea... but I'm still really undecided about which ml to use
<siretart> raphink: since you raised the revu question: what would you prefer?
<slomo_> hmm
<slomo_> another idea for revu
<siretart> raphink: a separate announce list or on the motu-reviewers mailling list?
<ajmitch> we could get a lot of mails if all debdiffs & all REVU package comments go there
<crimsun> e-mail would be good, but seriously using a more cogent colour scheme (via a style sheet?) would help as well.
<slomo_> let people "subscribe" to revu or single uploads
<ajmitch> slomo_: revu2
<slomo_> ok
<raphink> doens't matter to me since I'm not sucribed to motu-reviewers yet, but since it's directly related I'd go for only one ML
<ajmitch> slomo_: I don't think the framework is there for individual subscription in revu1
<siretart> slomo_: if you want to implement it, sure ;)
<sistpoty> crimsun: revu1 already uses css... any help with it would be very much welcome ;)
<ajmitch> siretart: I think we'll try & get revu2 workable by mid-late jan
<LaserJock> well, how far off is REVU2 do you think?
<slomo_> siretart: i _want_... but i can't when nobody invents the 72hour day soon :(
<siretart> slomo_: seriously, I also think this is more easy to implement in the new codebase
<siretart> slomo_: same here
<dholbach> i wouldn't like it on motureviewers, since those bugs all go to universe-bugs@ atm
<dholbach> and that'd make the list even more insane
<siretart> LaserJock: unfortunatly, I don't think it will go live before january, unless we get lots of more volunteers who suddenly start hacking
<ajmitch> siretart: me! me!
<raphink> good point then dholbach 
<siretart> ajmitch: :)
<LaserJock> siretart: what does it take to work on it?
<ajmitch> siretart: but I won't start hacking it until jan 1st ;)
<siretart> LaserJock: currently an svn client, and a bit of python knowledge
<sistpoty> dholbach: motu-reviewers ml go to universe-bugs?
<ajmitch> LaserJock: a good understanding of the spec, and of python, and various other tools
<dholbach> sistpoty: yes
<\sh> python , mod_python , and a lot of debian foo bar knowledge :) and eat a bit of siretarts crazy brain ;)
* ajmitch thinks all REVU2 contributors must read through the spec
<ajmitch> \sh: I've already done the brain thing
<\sh> hehhe
<siretart> yes. it is essential to understand the workflow
<sistpoty> dholbach: strange... why do we have a separate ml then? (motu-reviewers on tauware)
<siretart> ok, then lets use the same list
<dholbach> ?
<siretart> because revu and reviewing should be handled with equal priority, I think
<LaserJock> hmm, I would be interested. I don't know if I could help much
<dholbach> siretart: but those are not universe-bugs@
* ajmitch was reading through his zope3 book last night, email notification of changes is quite trivial there ;)
<sistpoty> dholbach: at least that's a ml I'm subscribed to... and some bugs from malone with reviewing go there... but I'm not quite sure bout that *g*
* raphink would help if he knew python
<slomo_> raphink: it's easy to learn :)
<siretart> dholbach: ah, I remeber, we had some mailling list confusion
<ajmitch> dholbach: bugs assigned to motureviewers go to the reviewers mailing list..
<\sh> raphink: python is one language you have to learn :) it's the ubuntu language :)
<siretart> dholbach: no, I don't want them to show up on universe-bugs, too
<dholbach> siretart: yes, and i still have to approve those posts
<sistpoty> ah, ajmitch... thx for clarification
<raphink> \sh: then I shall
<siretart> dholbach: fuck, then I forgot to take you off, sorry
<siretart> sistpoty: we need to talk! *g*
<sistpoty> siretart: sure :)
<siretart> query, later, okay?
<sistpoty> ok
<siretart> good
* dholbach -> phone, sorry
<siretart> ok.
<siretart> summary: TODO: make revu mail comments to motu-reviewers
* ajmitch wonders if we'll have another mailing list just for revu2 devel :)
<siretart> FIX mailinglist madnes
<siretart> s
<sistpoty> siretart: and uploads?
<LaserJock> can anybody check out the revu svn repo?
<siretart> sistpoty: thats an intersting point, we didn't discuss this yet
<ajmitch> LaserJock: currently no
<\sh> one mailinglist for \sh only name backslaSHs-own-mailinglist@crazy.ubuntu.people.com
<siretart> shall every upload be announced too?
<ajmitch> siretart: yes
<ajmitch> siretart: well each new package
<siretart> I mean, I already get an email for every upload, but the output is not very pretty
<ajmitch> can you differentiate between a new package & an update to it on revu?
<sistpoty> siretart: I want that too... at least for me ;)
* ajmitch isn't sure if we want every change on the list
<siretart> ajmitch: yes, I think I can
<ajmitch> siretart: oh, we'll do all this with rss in revu2 ;)
<ajmitch> so someone can subscribe to what they want
<raphink> oh that's nice :)
<sistpoty> and mail.. I want lot's of mail from revu2 :)
<ajmitch> sistpoty: generic notification wouldn't be hard if it's done right
* raphink thinks about getting REVU infos in akregator :)
<siretart> ajmitch: I would hack it into revu1/scripts/process_uploads.py
<sistpoty> ajmitch: cool
<ajmitch> I'll draw up a list of what I'll try & work on 
<siretart> ajmitch: there I have to register the new package to the database anyway, so I can use the check there
<sistpoty> siretart: I'll care for comments
<siretart> sistpoty: that would be awesome, thanks
<ajmitch> in between all the merge bugs, etc
<sistpoty> well, I'll leave it to you to fix the surely b0rked mail-cmd ;)
<siretart> sistpoty: both mail for comments and new packages or just comments?
<ajmitch> before \sh takes away all my bugs from me
<sistpoty> siretart: I'd like to do comments at first... I guess you have better knowledge of incoming-processing?
<\sh> ajmitch: you will have at least until next week :) when i'm better I'll rock again...
<siretart> sistpoty: that isn't that sophisticated, just have a look at process_uploads.py, thats all
<ajmitch> \sh: I'll be offline for a week by then
<sistpoty> siretart: ok, I'll care for that too ;)
<siretart> thanks!
<sistpoty> np siretart
<siretart> ok
<\sh> ajmitch: well...I have to work hard...just before I'm offline forever ;)
<siretart> then we have settled the revu business for now
<sistpoty> ok, before we get too indepth into revu discussion... are there other points we want to discuss?
<siretart> right, that was what I was going to ask
<raphink> :)
<siretart> what's left to discuss for now?
<ajmitch> sistpoty: considering this is an unannounced impromptu meeting
<raphink> sistpoty ate a bit of siretart's brain, too it seems
<\sh> everybody who has open merge bugs..syncs, debdiffs..please send me the bug numbers...i'll test and upload thx
<LaserJock> I just wanted to comment that I would like to get some feedback from my -motu email about the Ubuntu Packaging Guide
<siretart> \sh: could you please mail this to our mailing list?
<siretart> this request, that is
<\sh> means all people without upload rights...
<\sh> siretart: sure
<ajmitch> \sh: let me work on the ones I have assigned to me ;)
<ajmitch> there's enough for me to break there
<sistpoty> \sh: and please also note that everybody should look, if there are assigned bugs for him which he didn't request
<crimsun> LaserJock: sure, url? (I have a backlog of over 1000 e-mails, so a url is handier atm)
<\sh> ajmitch: you do the zope stuff...I don't touch them :)
<ajmitch> \sh: yeah, there's enough of a tangled mess there
<LaserJock> crimsun: I would like feedback on wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuPackagingGuide/Outline
<siretart> LaserJock: looks nice! really!
<siretart> LaserJock: how is it developed? docbook and svn?
<ajmitch> LaserJock: you start off the packaging from scratch with something like what I did?
<siretart> or just wiki?
<sistpoty> LaserJock: rocks, as motu's keep saying ;)
<LaserJock> it is part of the doc team I am now a member 
<LaserJock> ajmitch: yep
<siretart> anything else?
<LaserJock> I started off with what Unfgiven did (currently on doc.ubuntu.com) but have decided to redo from the beginning
<siretart> LaserJock: lets move that discussion to #ubuntu-motu, okay?
<LaserJock> yes please
<siretart> ok
<sistpoty> if there is nothing else, I think it might be good to at least schedule another motu-meeting... 
<ajmitch> unofficial motu meeting over?
<siretart> I think so
<siretart> does anyone have some time to write a summary about this meeting?
<ajmitch> sistpoty: since this one wasn't really scheduled, and just happened on top of the media meeting
<sistpoty> ajmitch: yes, but there wasn't a motu-meeting for a long time... and I guess it would be good to have a real motu-meeting in the near future (1/2 weeks from now)?
<siretart> we mainly discussed 3 points: revu sending emails, \sh request of bugnumbers and LaserJock PackagingGuide outline
<siretart> anyone?
<ajmitch> sistpoty: january, please
<sistpoty> ajmitch: yes, certainly a better choice ;)
<ajmitch> too many people might be away otherwise
<siretart> ok. then I'll do that
* ajmitch will be gone for a week :)
<sistpoty> thx siretart
<raphink> :)
<siretart> ok. Thanks for your attendance, it was a great meeting!
<siretart> meeting over!
<dholbach>  thanks siretart
<siretart> puh
<ajmitch> ok
<siretart> now lets go to work
* raphink runs all around and goes to play out
<sistpoty> hehe
<ajmitch> discuss next meeting time on list
<raphink> hehe
<sistpoty> ajmitch++
<sivang> was it MOTU meeting just now?
<sistpoty> sivang: that was an improvised/unannounced motu meeting
<sivang> sistpoty: ah, I see
<sivang> sistpoty: figures, since I didn't see it in fridge
<sistpoty> sivang: it was supposed to be only motumedia-meeting
<ajmitch> but a mail was sent to the MOTU list with MOTUMeeting in the title
<siretart> yeah, my bad. sorryh
<sivang> sistpoty: np, I was mostly offline anyway, was just surprised to see what looked like a motu meeting that wasn't announced.
* sivang has had a very bad day at work, overly busy with non-sense..
#ubuntu-meeting 2005-12-21
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:robitaille] : Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: http://people.ubuntu.com/~fabbione/irclogs/ |  | 15 Dec 08:00 UTC:  Dapper Development Status | 15 Dec 19:00 UTC:  MOTU Meeting | 16 Dec 14:00 UTC: DocTeam | 16 Dec 16:00 UTC: Desktop team | 20 Dec, time TBD: Community Council
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:robitaille] : Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: http://people.ubuntu.com/~fabbione/irclogs/ | 16 Dec 14:00 UTC: DocTeam | 16 Dec 16:00 UTC: Desktop team | 20 Dec, time TBD: Community Council | 21 Dec 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:robitaille] : Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: http://people.ubuntu.com/~fabbione/irclogs/ | 16 Dec 14:00 UTC: DocTeam | 16 Dec 16:00 UTC: Desktop team | 20 Dec, time TBD: Community Council | 21 Dec 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 22 Dec 14:00 UTC:  Dapper Development Status
<klepas> hi all
<jjesse> morning klepas
<Madpilot> morning everyone
<jsgotangco> morning
<klepas> people not officially involved in the doc team can voice opinions and tag along, right?
<jsgotangco> of course
<jjesse> of course
<Madpilot> ...still dark out here... barely morning at all... :)
<jjesse> grin 9am here, beautiful snowy december morning
<jjesse> 4 inches over night
* jsgotangco misses snow
<jsgotangco> who's here?
<jsgotangco> do we have the numbers to actually hold a meeting?
<jjesse> i'm here
<jsgotangco> ok let's wait a big just in case
<jjesse> doing an OEM install of Dapper flight2 and have had no issues this monring
<jjesse> of kubuntu
<jsgotangco> wow
<jsgotangco> mine in ubuntu is just borked
<jsgotangco> i have yet to burn the image of kubuntu though
<jjesse> i love the boot screen
<jsgotangco> but i'll be doing a good number of updates on the quickguide
<jjesse> though how do you do a screen shot of it to include in the doc?
<jsgotangco> yeah
<jsgotangco> it'll be great
<Madpilot> jjesse: with an actual camera? :)
<klepas> 01:08 here
<klepas> AM :)
<klepas> and 30 degrees
<Madpilot> -1 C at 0609 here, and sunrise isn't until 0759... bleh
<jsgotangco> hmm we don't seem to have the numbers
<jsgotangco> Madpilot, -1 C isn't that cold
<jjesse> where is everyone?
<klepas> Canberra, Australia
<jsgotangco> klepas, we meant the other team contributors :)
<jsgotangco> hmm lots posted in the agenda but no one came :)
<jjesse> jsgotangco: for release notes are we updatign just what has changed since the last release?
<jsgotangco> have you seen DapperReleaseNotes?
<jjesse> yeah
<jsgotangco> there isn't that much but yeah i should update that this weekend
<jjesse> have you seen DapperFlight2 ?
<jsgotangco> it should get packaged by Flight 3
<jsgotangco> yeah but thats more of a marketing doc :)
<jjesse> if somoene lets me know in time i can do a kubuntuflight3 page
<jsgotangco> but good nonetheless
<jjesse> that would liook like that
<jsgotangco> its awesome
<jsgotangco> matt did good on that one
<jsgotangco> actually the flight 2 docs are very VERY good
<jjesse> yeah but it would have been cool to have a Kubuntu one ready as well :(
<jsgotangco> yeah let's fix that
<jsgotangco> mdke seems to have convered good on ubuntu
<jsgotangco> DRAKE IS A DRAGON AND KUBUNTU HAS A KONQUI
<jsgotangco> =)
<jjesse> cackle
<jjesse> klepas: did you have something you wanted to share?
<jsgotangco> klepas, yeah dude good time to do so
<jsgotangco> Madpilot, what happened to Burgy?
<jsgotangco> work perhaps
<jsgotangco> ?
<Madpilot> jsgotangco: he's a lazy SOB? ;)
<jsgotangco> haha
<jsgotangco> Madpilot, how's docbook treating you?
<jjesse> Madpilot: stupid question you are working on???
<Madpilot> I'm not swearing at it quite as much 
<Madpilot> jjesse: I just did the BitTorrent entry for common-tasks.xml - not sure if that patch has been applied yet though
<jsgotangco> yeah it can be a bitch sometimes
<Madpilot> I posted it to the list last night
<jjesse> Madpilot: i just get confused on who is working on what :)
<jsgotangco> Madpilot, i'll patch it now
<klepas> jsgotangco: sorry
<klepas> multitasking
* jsgotangco searches for the patch
<Madpilot> jjesse: you still available for Sunday's Desktop Guide meeting?
<jsgotangco> we have a desktop meeting?
<jsgotangco> WE'RE NOT IDIOTS UNLIKE YOU GUYS
<jsgotangco> haha
<jsgotangco> joke
<Madpilot> we've been talking about one for Sunday - 1700 UTC I think
<jjesse> i should be available
<jjesse> hmm i'm -5 UTC so i should be out of church by then
<jsgotangco> Madpilot, slobs didn't apply your patch =)
<Madpilot> I didn't think it had gone in yet
<jjesse> didn't see it come across
<Madpilot> I sent the email about 8hrs ago now...
<jsgotangco> no worries
<jsgotangco> Madpilot, next time we'll guarantee your patch gets applied in 2 hours or your money back =)
<Madpilot> :P
<jjesse> i'll double your money if its not applied
<jsgotangco> and will even topup a fresh commit account
<jsgotangco> lol
<Madpilot> hmmm... if we're not going to have an actual meeting, maybe we should stop filling the -meeting logs here and head back to -doc?
<jsgotangco> speak of the devils
<jsgotangco> holy diff errors Madpilot 
<Madpilot> jsgotangco: hmm? what's up?
* jsgotangco reverts the doc first
<mdke> hello all
<jsgotangco> its been a while since i patched the docs here better let mdke do it :)
* jsgotangco should familiarize himself with the svn again
<jsgotangco> lots of xref issues
<mdke> jsgotangco, validate the desktopguide.xml
<jsgotangco> ohhhh
<jsgotangco> Madpilot, see?
<jsgotangco> =)
<jsgotangco> ahh
<jsgotangco> no issue then =)
<mdke> any meeting action?
<jsgotangco> not so much we were waiting for the o great packager =)
<Nafallo> what meeting? :-)
<mdke> Nafallo, topic?
<jsgotangco> mdke, we got lots in the agenda but no bhuvan
<mdke> hmm
<mdke> rob1?
<Nafallo> ah
<mdke> dholbach, around?
<mdke> Riddell, around?
<Riddell> always baby
<mdke> heh, yeah true
<jsgotangco> Madpilot, applied! 10 brownie points added =)
<mdke> well how about we deal with a few agenda items?
<mdke> the first two have been around way too long
<Madpilot> jsgotangco: thanks
<jjesse> back sorrry
<mdke> dholbach, Riddell, has any progress been made on the "single source for (k)ubuntu-docs" issue?
<Riddell> mdke: not to my knowledge
<jsgotangco> jjesse, whoa that was fast
<mdke> Riddell, any strong views either way?
<mdke> it would be nice, but I have no feel for the difficulty/triviality of what it would take
<Riddell> mdke: I think it would still be nice since it would stop us having to do externals to the generic documents in kubuntu, but it's not a major issue
<Riddell> wouldn't be that difficult, just takes doing
<jsgotangco> whaddaya mean single source?
<Riddell> and I don't have time for it
<mdke> jsgotangco, building both packages from the same source package
<jsgotangco> right
<mdke> Riddell, right, I suggest we remove this from the agenda and I'll take it up with Daniel when I next encounter him. If we can do it, we will. otherwise, in the meantime, shall we put the external back?
<Riddell> yes, I'll probably do that today
<mdke> great
<mdke> ok that issue is dealt with
<mdke> agenda item 1 is "toolchain for kubuntu docs". this was about using meinproc for building kubuntu docs
<jjesse> i think we left that as undecided last time we tlaked about it on the mailing list
<mdke> yeah
<mdke> afaict I was the only one with an objection to this, so I'm happy to stand aside and for us to continue using meinproc, if no one else objects
* jsgotangco has no experience with it but heard its pretty good
<Riddell> jsgotangco: it lacks xincludes is the problm
<Riddell> problem
<jsgotangco> ahhh
<mdke> oh yeah crap forgot about that
<Riddell> so it means that generic docs can't use xincludes
<mdke> and the kubuntu docs can't either
<Riddell> well nobody objects if edit kubuntu docs :)
<Riddell> if I edit
<mdke> no, but if people want to work on both, they'll have to get used to two different procedures, which is a shame
<mdke> plus you've got the fact that include/excluding external things from translations is easier with xincludes
<jjesse> if it is easier for translations will that make kubuntu docs more easily available in rosetta?
<mdke> jjesse, we can make them available in rosetta anyway, but it is more difficult to specify what to include and what to exclude when you're dealing with entities rather than xincludes
<jjesse> now i don't totally understand it, but wouldn't it be easier to just keep it simple?
<mdke> well meinproc also has some advantages, as Riddell posted. So it's a question of balancing up.
<Riddell> like working with KDE :)
<mdke> Riddell, well i have few doubts that we can make the html docs built with the other tool work with kde too
<mdke> the styling is certainly not a problem.
<mdke> the issues were something to do with compression, right?
<Riddell> compression and splitting up into .html files
<mdke> xsltproc splits up into .html files too
<mdke> can the compression be done manually, or not at all?
<Riddell> it can be done manually
<Riddell> it would just take a lot of hassle with the style sheets and scripting
<mdke> Riddell, well I think it should be your call, but I'm really pretty against having to remove xincludes from the generic docs
<mdke> is there literally no way meinproc will be happy with xincludes?
<Riddell> I don't have time to do anything other than meinproc
<Riddell> no, it doesn't support them
<jjesse> Riddell or mdke is it somthing that one of you could teach me to do so i could take care of it?
<jjesse> or is it just faster to do it your self?
<Riddell> faster not to do it :)
<mdke> well given that the breezy package didn't use meinproc, it wouldn't be very difficult to revert to that system
<mdke> the question is, how bad are the breezy kubuntu docs?
<jjesse> bad packaging wise?
<mdke> yeah, obviously not content wise
<mdke> are the stylesheets ok?
<Riddell> you'd need to edit the KDE stylesheet to generate separate .html files then glue them all together with <FILENAME=foo> then compress them
<Riddell> they're not valid HTML
<mdke> why not?
<mdke> how about we use the standard docbook-xsl stylesheets, and apply the kde css, like we do for ubuntu-docs?
<mdke> would that help?
<Riddell> all the <FILENAME=foo> stuff is in there
<Riddell> no, the kde css is designed for the KDE xsl
<mdke> Riddell, well it's not like it's complex css. It is basically just a few colours, I'm sure we can make any necessary tweaks
<Riddell> go ahead, as I say I've no time for it :
<Riddell> :)
<mdke> again, ubuntu-docs looks ok (imo)
<mdke> or if it doesn't, it will
<jsgotangco> go go go mdke !
<mdke> ?
<mdke> tell you what
<mdke> i'll try and knock something up, and we can see what it looks like
<mdke> Riddell, is meinproc actively developed? can we bitch at someone about supporting xincludes?
<Riddell> i don't think it's been developed for some time, hopefully it'll go away for kde 4
<mdke> hmm
<mdke> well the ubuntu-docs stuff is definitely valid (x)html, so I'll try and knock something up that you're happy with
<Riddell> groovy
<mdke> anyone else still here?
<jjesse> i am
<mdke> any agenda items you'd like to discuss?
<jsgotangco> mmm
<jjesse> not really, i know a group of us are getting together sunday for a desktop guide mtg
<jsgotangco> we're going to update kubuntu doc soon
<mdke> cool
<jsgotangco> jjesse, but we're not part of *that* group =)
<mdke> i'd definitely like to discuss the xml/html question. There has been almost no discussion on the list about this :(
* jsgotangco trolls
<mdke> proposal was http://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-doc/2005-December/004486.html
<jsgotangco> mdke, i really like the way you did for flight 2 packaging both
<mdke> with the exception of a thumbs up from mpt, I've seen no real response
<jsgotangco> because of that we can easily compare what is better or not
<mdke> cool
<mdke> any views?
<mdke> I'm 100% in favour of html
<jsgotangco> translation issues?
<mdke> there are no translation issues
<mdke> obviously we'd continue to write in xml
<mdke> the translations would be fine
<Madpilot> so we'd continue to write in Docbook XML, but ship the converted HTML?
<mdke> that is the proposal yeah
* mdke thinks Madpilot would prefer not to write in docbook :)
<jsgotangco> yes
<Madpilot> I'm getting slightly more used to it :) but HTML is so much easier & less verbose
<mhz> jsgotangco: offered to make my ODP into docbook for edubuntu, so I'll start docing finally
<mhz> thx jsgotangco 
<mdke> Madpilot, but more inflexible :(
* mhz wrote that regarding translations :)
<mdke> so any views on the proposal?
<jjesse> i would prefer to continue to write in docbook, i've leared enough of it to continue using
<jsgotangco> mhz, i dunno about translation the current doc that'll mean rewriting code
<Madpilot> mdke: yeah, I know why Docbook is in use - there are actual good reasons
<jsgotangco> mhz, it would be ok if its a new doc though
<mdke> yep
<jsgotangco> but not an existing one
<mhz> jsgotangco: okis, no prob.
<mhz> even easier then
<jsgotangco> mhz, translating an existing work is much easier (go to rosetta)
<mdke> Madpilot, jsgotangco, jjesse, any views on the proposal
<mdke> ?
<mhz> indeed
<jsgotangco> i like the html css at the moment
<mdke> me too, and the speed
<jsgotangco> its basically moz rendering right?
<mdke> yep
<jsgotangco> even better
<mdke> yelp renders in html anyway
<mdke> but if we ship in xml, it has to do the conversion on-the-fly
<mdke> whereas if we ship html, we do it at the build
<mdke> hence the speed difference
<jjesse> as i don't understand the packaging/rendering process the greatest yet, need to learn it, as long as i keep editing the docs in docbook format it shouldn't matter to me what we render in
<jjesse> and i have never looked at the ubuntu-docs in gnome, haven't used ubuntu so i can't comment on how yelp loos
<mdke> fair enough
<jsgotangco> yeah but you have to admit, yelp has improved on speed, but still not good enough
<mdke> yelp is fairly quick at displaying html, just slow with xml, understadably
<Madpilot> any idea when Yelp is going to get search functions?
<mdke> Madpilot, no, but it doesn't make a difference to this issue, because yelp will be the help viewer, regardless of what we decide
<jsgotangco> i believe upstream already has it
<jsgotangco> Madpilot, oh wait sorry, i meant Printing support
<jsgotangco> RAD
<mdke> o.o
<mdke> as jjesse said the other day, printing support is the most basic function ever
<mdke> it really should have had that ages ago ;)
<Madpilot> mdke: that's the last major piece of functionality missing from Yelp, so I was just wondering - as for HTML/XML, shipping HTML = faster rendering, which is rarely a bad thing...
<jjesse> and search
<jsgotangco> khelpcenter had that years ago
<mdke> Madpilot, yeah, i don't really see any advantage in shipping xml
<jsgotangco> its l337!
<mdke> also, the serverguide really has to be in html
<mdke> because many servers won't have an xml viewer
<jjesse> or viewable in text? if i don't have a gui installed :)
<jsgotangco> bah! we only need vi!
<jjesse> emacs
<mdke> jjesse, yeah that's what I mean, html is viewable easily from the command line,  xml isn't
<mdke> any more views on this item?
<jjesse> nope
<jsgotangco> bundle qemacs
<jsgotangco> lol
<jjesse> nano
<jsgotangco> jjesse, qemacs renders docbook :P
<jjesse> ah
<mdke> some more agenda items?
<mdke>  Cleaning unnecessary/unmaintained documents from svn repository (Bhuvan)
<mdke> ?
<jjesse> i think i took care of the kubuntu docs
<jsgotangco> don't clean up too much yet :)
<mdke> i have no objection to removing documents which are unmaintained and are no further use
<mdke> jsgotangco, what about edubuntu, what shall we do with that?
<jsgotangco> stay it for a while, i'm observing current work in bzr
<jsgotangco> as well my upstream gnome doc
<jsgotangco> promised mvo will update it next week
<jsgotangco> before we move it to his rep
<mdke> can't that be hosted in gnome cvs?
<jsgotangco> because g-a-i will have a massive change
<jsgotangco> sure
<jsgotangco> let me piggyback for a week more =)
<mdke> ok we'll leave ubuntu/upstream/gai
<mdke> what about update-manager?
<jsgotangco> not so sure if that is being updated
<mdke> presumably this is upstream already?
<jsgotangco> it was sean's doc 
<jsgotangco> can't say
<jsgotangco> i could check
<mdke> that would be good
<jsgotangco> they don't eat that much space anyways
<mdke> true
<jsgotangco> until i verify i'll take responsibiility for the two
<mdke> ok
<mdke> i don't think saving space in there is a high priority
<jsgotangco> nahh
<mdke> daniel recently wrote a script to reduce the size of the source tarball by excluding anything that isn't used
<mdke> that has cut it down from 30 to 10MB
<jsgotangco> wow
<jsgotangco> he can really conjure voodoo huh
<mdke> :)
<mdke> jsgotangco, what about your accessibility agenda item?
<jsgotangco> well i haven't started that much on it yet but we decided to go wiki first
<jsgotangco> once we clean it up, the a11y team can decide if its going in
<mdke> ok
<mdke> that was easy
<jsgotangco> so far we're doing good on a11y
<mdke> good
<mdke> ok as for the 2 remaining items
<mdke> the updating the status reports, I think just need to be worked on, we don't need to discuss it, unless anyone wants to
<mdke> the sharing of prefaces, we can talk about on sunday IMO
<mdke> since it is very much a faqguide issue
<jsgotangco> whats on sunday?
<mdke> faqguide/desktopguide
<mdke> jsgotangco, a meeting about the desktopguide
<jsgotangco> oh
* jsgotangco havent been attentive to emails lately
<mdke> too busy :)
<jsgotangco> incredibly
* jsgotangco has a contract at the moment with IOSN
<mdke> oh
<mdke> how about another agenda item
<mdke> commit access for Madpilot?
<mdke> gets the +1 from me
<jsgotangco> me too
<jsgotangco> mdke, www.iosn.net
<Madpilot> I'm not a Member yet - planning on that for Jan.
<mdke> oh god this bloody member rule
<jsgotangco> Madpilot, you're a shoo-in
<jsgotangco> mdke, =)
<mdke> pah
<mdke> i miss ONE meeting, and you guys make this stupid rule ;)
<jsgotangco> bah we had good quorum and a majority of devs
* mdke shakes head sadly
<Madpilot> the exact time still hasn't been annoucned for the the Dec. 20th CC meeting - if it's another 1400Z meeting, I can make that and put my name down beforehand
<mdke> gah
<Madpilot> if it's going to be 2200Z, I'll be at work, I'm afraid...
<mdke> don't they do them at 2000?
<jsgotangco> yikes!
<mdke> it is much more difficult for doc team contributors to get membership without having commit access first :(
<mdke> Madpilot is going to have to wait until february or so before we can add him...
<jsgotangco> jdub's wife is also getting active in iosn
<Madpilot> mdke: I'll just keep spamming the list with patches until then - and complaining about XML :P
<mdke> Madpilot, ok, we'll keep applying em
<mdke> meeting adjourned?
<jsgotangco> sure
<jsgotangco> we got good mileage really
<mdke> ok
<jsgotangco> why was the last meeting cancelled?
<mdke> no one turned up
<jsgotangco> eh?
<jsgotangco> well i was in seoul...
* jsgotangco remembered telling people...
* mvo whistles
* seb128 hugs mvo
<seb128> where is herr holbach?
<mvo> seb128: I talked to him some minutes ago, he should be here any minute
<seb128> k
<mvo> seb128: how is your reading going? what book are you? and where :) ?
<seb128> I've not read, as usual when starting IRC, got stuff to do :p
<Nafallo> dholbach says that he can't connect to freenode.
<seb128> I was going to when I remembered the meeting was 20 min later
<mvo> what is the nice of j5 on irc? is it j5 :) ?
<seb128> yep
<dholbach> hi
<dholbach> sorry, i'm late
<dholbach> just couldn't connect to freenode
<Nafallo> welcome back dholbach :-)
* dholbach looks around him, says "home" :)
<jsgotangco> oh desktop meeting eh?
<seb128> lol
<dholbach> so who's here for the desktop team meeting :)
<mvo> ahhhh
<mvo> welcome dholbach !
<dholbach> you were waiting for me?
<dholbach> i'm so touched
<seb128> yep
<mvo> sure
* dholbach sniffs
* dholbach is Daniel Holbach
* jsgotangco would love to be part of the gnome love
<dholbach> ok
* dholbach looks at the Meeting Agenda
<dholbach> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopTeam/MeetingIdeas
<dholbach> so what do we have achieved since the last time?
<seb128> UDN
<seb128> thanks vuntz :)
<dholbach> yeah, that was a blast
<seb128> now we have lot of new people on the list
<seb128> time to have rocking ideas on make the list active :)
<dholbach> we should really focus on getting our crazy ideas to the list asap
<seb128> yep
<dholbach> but it seems to hard to convert ourselves from the irc-centric approach we take, no? :)
<dholbach> mvo for example could take the discussion about dbus/notify there
* Nafallo will have to read the minutes. girlfriend is demanding today...
* mvo is michael vogt
* seb128 is seb128
<dholbach> because that will something that will affect huge parts and if we can discuss it and get people involved
<mvo> we will need to recompile a bit for both main and universe, seb128 already prepared a list for main
<seb128> 23 packages for main
<seb128> let me run it on universe
<dholbach> 62+46 all in all (-1-1 and glib-1-1)
* seb128 kicks dholbach for saying crap :p
<seb128> 19 for universe
<seb128> 23 for main
<mvo> seb128: do you use grep-dctrl? 
<seb128> grep-available in fact
<seb128> with some | | to get source packages instead of binary
<dholbach> mvo: do you think there will be lots to patch?
<mvo> so far everything compiled
<mvo> but I'm not 100% sure
<dholbach> cool
<mvo> we may run into some issues
<seb128> is there a way to remove '\n' ?
<mvo> otoh gnome is going to depend on it for 2.14 anyway, no?
<seb128> ie: for a file
<seb128> 1
<seb128> 2
<seb128> to cat it | sed 's#\n##' or something
<dholbach> seb128: sorry, dunno
<dholbach> mvo: we could write a mail to u-d-a and just go with it in a big upload over a weekend, so there's no (too big) breakage :)
<seb128> yeah, tr works for that :p
<seb128> "avahi banshee gnome-power-manager gnome-screensaver gnome-user-share gpe-contacts gpsd libgalago libipoddevice liferea network-manager power-manager thoggen totem vlc xchat-gnome xfce4-terminal xfmedia xterminal"
<seb128> for main
<seb128> "bluez-pin bluez-utils dbus epiphany-browser evince evolution gnome-applets gnome-utils gnome-vfs2 gnome-volume-manager hal ivman k3b kdebase libgpod libnotify nautilus-cd-burner notification-daemon pmount rhythmbox screem totem update-notifier"
<Amaranth> whoa
<dholbach> that doesn't look too bad
<dholbach> :)
<seb128> those are the source rdepends of libdbus-1-1, 1 is universe, second is main
<Amaranth> what is changing?
<Amaranth> ah
<mvo> nice!
<dholbach> mvo: ok, so we try the breakage first locally and then shove it to the people?
<mvo> good plan I think
<dholbach> cool
<seb128> mvo: but what happens when new dbus hit the archive?
<seb128> apps are broken and need a rebuild NOW?
<seb128> binary package name change?
<mvo> binary package name changes
<mvo> so when dbus hits the archive nothing happens
<seb128> oh, nice
<seb128> clean transition so
<dholbach> seb128: we do it the doko way: do a million uploads at once :)
<mvo> but once we start building the first apps we need to be quick :)
<mvo> yes
<dholbach> we can split up and do it over the weekend or over night :)
<seb128> what happens if apps built with 2 different versions try to communicate?
<mvo> of course we first need a building dbus *cough*
<Nafallo> today!? :-D
<raphink> slomo: could you advocate http://revu.tauware.de/details.py?upid=1163 again please?
<mvo> shock and awe
<seb128> we get 2 busses and they don't reach each other
<seb128> or BUM?:)
<slomo> raphink: wrong channel ;P
<mvo> in theory it might work, but in reality -> bum
<raphink> oops sorry
<raphink> :(
<raphink> hehe
<seb128> mvo: bum like app crashing?
<dholbach> seb128: isnt 'boum' the french way of crashing? ;)
<seb128> or just dbus feature not working fine?
<seb128> dholbach: yeah, but that's an english meeting :p
<seb128> haha :)
<dholbach> :)
<mvo> I had panel freezes for examples
<seb128> panel doesn't use dbus
<dholbach> we'll see how it works out... a warning on u-d-a should be appropriate :)
<seb128> see my list :p
<mvo> but some applets do
<seb128> applets should not be able to take the panel down
<seb128> I blame vuntz
<dholbach> "should" :)
<seb128> vuntz|away: HERE, NOW :)
<dholbach> haha
<seb128> mvo: anyway, 20 package is no big deal, with 2-3 people on it, it's a matter of one hour
<dholbach> yeah
<sivang> desktop team meeting?
<sivang> or doc-team ?
<dholbach> desktop, still :)
<seb128> guess?
<Nafallo> those packages are only main? :-)
<dholbach> Nafallo: universe uploads! :)
<Nafallo> sivang: no, the docteam has to rebuild 20 packages :-)
<seb128> Nafallo: quite the same number for universe
<Nafallo> yay! something for me todo :-D
<seb128> :)
<dholbach> seb128: we'll set up a wiki page, where everybody can take his share of packages and we organize it, before we actually do it, does that sound smart?
<Nafallo> dholbach: yes oh humble wikigod :-)
<seb128> that sounds not required for me
<dholbach> no?
<seb128> 20 packages, I can give 7 to you, 7 to mvo and take 6
<dholbach> yeah + universe
<seb128> and we are done in one hour
<seb128> the transition is small enough to be handled on IRC imho
<Nafallo> seb128: do you have the list of packages somewhere? :-)
<dholbach> *nod*
<seb128> but that's because I don't like to wait for hours on wiki every time I do an upload
<seb128> if you want to wiki stuff feel free
<Nafallo> good point ;-)
<seb128> I'll ping you on IRC to update my uploads :p
<dholbach> no, but just to share it before we do it :)
<dholbach> haha
<seb128> Nafallo: I copied it like 20 lines up
<dholbach> apart from dbus/notify we need to discuss how to get the pile of bugs managed - the situation is desparate since flight 2
<\sh> seb128: send the universe packages to ubuntu-motu ML :)
<doko> seb128: do these packages need changes?
<seb128> hum, rather like 60 lines now :)
<Amaranth> 11 minutes ago
<seb128> doko: that's a good point, a few probably
* sivang apologizes *again* for missing a meeting, there seem to be an exponetionaly growing number of them
<seb128> Debian is like to have the patches ready though, sjoerd was working on that yesterday
<Nafallo> oh, I've feed universe + screem to apt-get source now ;-)
<seb128> GNOME is current dbus complient
<sivang> what packages needs work this time nbesides merger etc?
<dholbach> seb128: cool
<seb128> mvo: have you tried to rebuild stuff with your new dbus?
<mvo> seb128: yes, some stuff, hal, pmount, gnome-media, nautilus-cd-burner, evince
<seb128> need patching?
<mvo> no, build fine so far
<seb128> good
<seb128> I was expecting that for GNOME
<seb128> brb
<dholbach> cool
<Nafallo> ehm, I get 404 on the dbus orig.tar.gz
<dholbach> where?
<Nafallo> (apt-proxy -> archive.u.c)
<dholbach> hm, might be temporarily
<dholbach> but all in all it seems quite straightforward
<dholbach> as i said before, i'd really like to know, what you guys think about the bug matter
<dholbach> i think that regular bug days are a good start, but what can we do apart from that?
<sivang> dbus rebuild? seems fairly easy to do, where the package list? :)
<dholbach> sivang: please read the backlog, seb posted it
<seb128> dholbach: bug days like every week or every 2 weeks
<seb128> but we need people available/responsive the whole day
<seb128> tracking what people do
<sivang> dholbach: ok, thanks
<mvo> how many people (roughly) attend to bug days?
<dholbach> i can't really tell
<dholbach> since it's quite "new"
<dholbach> last time there were like always 10 doing stuff actively at a time
<seb128> mvo: 10-20
<sivang> dholbach: what's the approach to not stepping on each ones toes when working on bugs? do you assign them to yourself for that?
<seb128> sivang: read the backlog
<dholbach> sivang: no, we don't do that
<seb128> oh, not speaking about dbus
<dholbach> we had categories of bugs mentioned on http://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuBugDay
<Nafallo> dholbach: I can start dropping build-deps on libxdmcp-dev now?
<seb128> there is enough bug to not step on another one when picking one usually
<dholbach> Nafallo: if libx11 has built, yes
<seb128> Nafallo: yeah, was a bad idea to do that
* sivang reads
<dholbach> like UNCONFIRMED ones, NEEDINFO ones, ...
<dholbach> and people told what they were looking at
<seb128> Nafallo: fix the issue instead of workaround wrongly half of the world :)
<dholbach> apart from that, there were people working on MOTU bugs (in malone), other on bugzilla, ...
<Nafallo> seb128: indeed :-)
<dholbach> i hope that our call for kubuntu folks, motu folks, other folks will get different people involved, so we can tackle bugs equally
<dholbach> but surely, as a desktop team we'd love to see desktop-bugs@ fixed asap :)
<dholbach> fixed/triaged
<dholbach> it's a bit hard to get people working on bugs, they don't seem to have a special affiliation to it
<seb128> yeah, especially distro bugs
<seb128> we should make "specialized lists"
<dholbach> seb128: the situation on universe bugs is even worse
<dholbach> to be frank
<seb128> like "GNOMish bugs", "KDEish bug", "installer bugs"
<seb128> dholbach: I'm not quite convinced
<dholbach> that might make sense, do you think we should have separate days for those?
<seb128> maybe not
<seb128> but have clear list during the bug day
<dholbach> seb128: if i look at my universe bugs mail box that's the impression i get, they are assigned, but not triaged
<seb128> so people can focus on what they are interested it
<seb128> s/it/in/
<dholbach> yeah
<dholbach> that definitely sounds good
<seb128> dholbach: malone generates a lot of noise
<dholbach> :)
<dholbach> yes
<seb128> I read new bugs on malone quite often since there is no assignee by default
<seb128> to figure where GNOME bugs are
<seb128> and most of the flood are your syncs
<dholbach> i always look at the unassigned list
<dholbach> ... first
<dholbach> i feel that we need a separate team, maybe we should get t-shirts out to members of the "Ubuntu Bug Squad" :)
<dholbach> people in #ubuntu-bugs surely feel "lost" somehow
<dholbach> i saw that in the days after the bug day
<mvo> some sort of reward will certainly motivate
<dholbach> people were getting in and thought "hello, anybody here?"
<seb128> I was wondering if we should split bug days
<dholbach> split in what way?
<seb128> like have desktopish triagging on #ubuntu-desktop
<dholbach> mvo: we should talk to mark about that
<seb128> instead of #ubuntu-bugs
<sivang> ok, so new dbus version?
<sivang> :)
<dholbach> but that way we will always have bugs not being touched
* sivang read changlog in the quickest way ever
<dholbach> sivang: do you have a big irc lag?
<dholbach> not meant to be rude, but we're talking bugs atm :)
<sivang> dholbach: erm , I don't think so - maybe, why?
<sivang> eh!
<sivang> no , it's ok - my brain is lagging, not irc
<seb128> dholbach: right, but we can still have a part of the triage on #ubuntu-bugs
<dholbach> it might sound stupid, but maybe we should talk bug discussions over there?
<dholbach> mvo: any idea on those rewards?
<dholbach> seb128: do you know of other bug teams around the open source world, apart from gnome?
<mvo> t-shirts, a special thanks mail from leading comunity people (like dholbach) 
<mvo> that sort of thing
<dholbach> haha
<mvo> menitoning on a webpage 
<dholbach> that sounds cool yes
<seb128> dholbach: nop
<mvo> or a minutes from the bug-day
<mvo> with special mentinoing etc
* jsgotangco starts to blog gnome desktop is awesome!
<sivang> but people should not do it just for getting some reward or karma, as seb128 once noted. I think he's was right.
<dholbach> we should raise more awareness of those people just getting involved
<dholbach> like those "everybody look, seb128's first upload to the archive"-mails :)
<seb128> I didn't say that
<seb128> reward/karma can motivate people for sure
<sivang> maybe we need to have a bugs day report, where people working were mentioned (even if they fixed bugs, of if they did not)
<seb128> but that's not a reason to make useless stuff only to get karma
<dholbach> sivang: sure not, but people willing to contribute usually have contributions of good quality
<sivang> dholbach: agreed
<sivang> seb128: true
<sivang> but t-shirts would be nice :)
* jsgotangco begs for one
<sivang> I think that if we care not to make too much distinction between epople the take part in this day, we'll eventually get a nice steady community of bug squad people
<dholbach> guys, do bug triage!
<dholbach> i will talk to mark for every t-shirt personally
* jsgotangco will make sure to bring a poster of dholbach during WWE
<sivang> jsgotangco: WWE?
<dholbach> even if i have to buy them, i'll do it
<jsgotangco> sivang, world wrestling entertainment heh
<sivang> eh, :)
<dholbach> seb128: we should do a nice t-shirt design session and i'll sent them out
<dholbach> s/sent/send
<Nafallo> jsgotangco: did he win against who? :-)
<seb128> dholbach: I'm not the guy you want to ping about design stuff :p
<dholbach> so who of you will get heavily busy with us next week (21st)? and who of you honestly noticed bug day on 21st?
<dholbach> seb128: thanks... we'll do it just fine :)
<dholbach> big silence... sure, i understand... "blah... christmas presents... blah...", sure :)
<dholbach> if, so if nobody has to say anything, we should move to other topics
<seb128> move
<dholbach> what do you want to see in the desktop team next? :-)
<dholbach> people seem to have high expectations in the team
<dholbach> (hence the big amount of subscribers on the list)
<dholbach> but it doesnt seem to be clear what people can do
<dholbach> is that observation accurate?
<jsgotangco> yes
<seb128> use the wiki to put task
<seb128> don't hesitate to use the list to raise discussion instead of IRC
<seb128> to ask for new cool stuff, opinion on it, etc
<seb128> maybe some weekly bug triaging stats
<seb128> how many bug we got
<seb128> how many we closed
<dholbach> maybe i should do a day with s/#ubuntu-desktop/ubuntu-desktop@
<seb128> the top 5 of bug closers
<seb128> daily work discussion are not suitable for a list
<seb128> I think this page is nice: http://bugzilla.gnome.org/reports/weekly-bug-summary.html
<seb128> we should have a weekly summary for Ubuntu too
<dholbach> i just thought about it, but maybe if we could take more of our usual workflow to the mailing list, people would have a "glimpse into what happens everyday"
<seb128> people like to see how things are going/moving
<sivang> dholbach++
<dholbach> who are our bugzilla experts? jdub?
<sivang> seb128: but also like to see them logged in a mailing list, when it's easy to go back
<seb128> dholbach: we already said that, and I tried to mail the list
<sivang> seb128: oh
<seb128> I did for the session dialog, gconf changes, asking for the panel launchers and stuff
<seb128> dholbach: yeah, jdub I guess
<dholbach> yeah, maybe i didn't try hard enough
<dholbach> i'll try harder
<dholbach> new pages on the wiki, new things we're planning "at some stage", ...
<sivang> dholbach: make sure you send it to the list as well, and try to create discussion there
<dholbach> sivang: i was talking about the list
<sivang> ah ok
<dholbach> that sounds sound
<dholbach> mvo: you mail to the list first... dbus / notify stuff! YAY :)
<sivang> dholbach: you said "wiki pages.." , that's why I Was wondering.
<dholbach> it was in context to what seb said before
<dholbach> seb128: you think jdub will make such a weekly-bug-summary happen?
<seb128> no
<dholbach> *nod*
* jsgotangco starts journey to neverneverland
<mvo> dholbach: I first need to make it build again
<seb128> but it's easy to have some standard queries to get stats and to include that to a weekly mail
<seb128> like UDN
<dholbach> mvo: ok
<dholbach> seb128: i'll look into it
<dholbach> and set a big reminder every week :)
<seb128> dholbach: ask vuntz about it, he already did some stat on bugzilla.ubuntu like that
<dholbach> cool
* dholbach hugs vuntz in absentia
<dholbach> are there some other points somebody would like to raise?
<dholbach> ok
<dholbach> i think for a rather ad-hoc meeting this went quite well
<dholbach> and it makes me happy to see, that there's always enough to discuss in ubuntu-dektop :)
<dholbach> if nobody steps up to it, i'll write the minutes
<jsgotangco> :D
<dholbach> and send them to ubuntu-desktop@ :)
<sivang> dholbach: also, make sure you send the stuff about what seb talked in the backlog :)
* sivang seems to have trouble parsing the backlog correctly. 
<dholbach> hey vuntz
<vuntz> hey
<vuntz> :-)
<dholbach> vuntz: any points you'd like to raise for the desktop meeting
<dholbach> ?
<Riddell> I have a brief question
<dholbach> Riddell: fire away
<Riddell> what's the status of gstreamer 0.10 support in apps?
<dholbach> seb128: :-)
<vuntz> dholbach: no special points
<dholbach> vuntz: unspecial ones?
<vuntz> err. don't think so :-)
<seb128> Riddell: for GNOME most of them are ported
<vuntz> ah
<vuntz> don't forget to send new stuff on the list or to me so that it can be in UDN
<seb128> Riddell: we will ship dapper with gst010 no gst08, is that an issue for KDE?
<vuntz> seb128: we could ship both if necessary
<seb128> vuntz: what do you think about doing weekly bug stats (how many new bugs, closed, forwarded, top 5 bug closers, etc) (like http://bugzilla.gnome.org/reports/weekly-bug-summary.html)?
<vuntz> seb128: good idea
<seb128> vuntz: no we can't
<vuntz> I wanted to add a section like this in UDN, btw
<vuntz> seb128: why can't we?
<Riddell> seb128: amarok will probably be ported to gstreamer 0.10 soon, but there's no plans for kaffeine to be currently
<seb128> vuntz: pitti will track me down :p
<dholbach> vuntz: great!
<seb128> vuntz: anti-duplication front :)
<vuntz> seb128: if KDE needs it, we can
<vuntz> it doesn't mean GNOME will use it :-)
<seb128> vuntz: right, but better to not
<dholbach> there's a bit of time until release :)
<Riddell> yeah, I just need to persuade them that they'll look old-fashioned if they still use gstreamer0.8
<seb128> vuntz: depending on what you mean "ship", we will not on the CD for sure
<vuntz> seb128: not the Ubuntu CD, but if KDE needs it, it can be on the Kubuntu one. Can't it?
<dholbach> Riddell: haha, that's the best point you can make, for sue :)
<vuntz> but I agree it's better to have only 0.10
<seb128> vuntz: yeah, no issue for that, it just has to be in main
<seb128> but pitti would be happy if we can move 0.8 to universe
<seb128> because main means we will have to support it for 3 years
<vuntz> and everyone would be happy. Not just pitti :-)
<seb128> and upstream already stopped supporting it
<seb128> so that's like maintaining it for 3.5 years over upstream
<dholbach> ouch :)
<dholbach> if that gives answers to the question, we close the meeting, no? :)
<dholbach> ok, meeting closed
<dholbach> have a nice day
<mvo> yep
* mvo needs dinner now anyway :P
* dholbach too
<dholbach> lunch, dinner, whatever
<seb128> thanks dholbach
<dholbach> thank YOU!
<seb128> mvo: at 6pm? that's early! enjou :)
<mvo> seb128: it only means I can have a late one too :)
<vuntz> hungry german people
* sivang awaits the u-desktop thread.
<seb128> lamont: could you give a rebuild to evolution-data-server with the fixed libx11 (2:0.99.4-0ubuntu2)
<lamont> seb128: kicked
<seb128> thank you
#ubuntu-meeting 2005-12-22
<node357> darn :(
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:robitaille] : | 20 Dec, time TBD: Community Council | 21 Dec 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 22 Dec 14:00 UTC:  Dapper Development Status | 30 Dec 22:00 UTC: DocTeam
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:robitaille] :  Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: http://people.ubuntu.com/~fabbione/irclogs/ | 20 Dec, time TBD: Community Council | 21 Dec 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 22 Dec 14:00 UTC:  Dapper Development Status | 30 Dec 22:00 UTC: DocTeam
* #ubuntu-meeting  [freenode-info]  If you're at a conference, please contact freenode staff to make sure we've made special allowance for many users coming into our network from a single internet address ( http://freenode.net/faq.shtml#gettinghelp ). Private messages from unregistered users are currently blocked, except to network staff, services and participating registered users ( http://freenode.net/faq.shtml#privmsg )... Thanks!
#ubuntu-meeting 2005-12-24
* netjoined: irc.freenode.net -> brown.freenode.net
<pitti> ok, so is everybody familiar with the current structure of locales?
<Kamion> ish
* mvo is ready in 1min
<pitti> ok, let's summarize it for the others to read
<pitti> previously, package 'locales' shipped all locale definitions; /etc/locale.gen selected the ones which were compiled and available in the system
<pitti> now, 'locales' only ships helper scripts, keyboard stuff, etc., but not the locale definitions any more
<pitti> and the locale definitions are shipped in the respective langpacks
<pitti> langpack postinst/prerm generates/removes the compiled locales now
<pitti> this way we can update them after release and, more important, handle them with Rosetta
<pitti> that was the way as described by LocalesThatDontSuck
<pitti> unfortunately it turns out that they suck differently now
<pitti> oh, mvo, you were away
* pitti just summarized the situation
<pitti> jbailey, doko, Mithrandir: please ack that you read the summary
* mvo is back
<mvo> pitti: can you /msg me the scrollback?
<jbailey> pitti: ack
<doko> pitti: how often is the locale data updated (from your experience)
<jbailey> doko: Do you mean from Belocs?
<pitti> in breezy we did it a couple of times
<pitti> but we didn't ship belocs locales (too late for testing)
<pitti> so it would have been better to update more of them 
<jbailey> doko: Belocs upstream takes a steady stream of patches into their repository.  Not that fast, but occasionally.
<Mithrandir> mvo: done
<Mithrandir> pitti: read the summary, yes
* mvo is up2date now too
<doko> I mwan, how often are files touched in /usr/share/i18n/locales ?
<pitti> so AFAICS we now have three problems:
<doko> #s/mwan/mean/
<pitti> 1) locales cannot be generated without installing a langpack
<pitti> 2) some test suites currently use external locale definitions
<pitti> 3) d-i needs locales as well
<pitti> seriously, 2) seems like a non-issue to me, but doko wants them back
<Mithrandir> I guess the live cd usecase is an instance of 1)?
<pitti> 1) is inconvenient
<pitti> and 3)  is a real problem
<pitti> Mithrandir: right, 1 or 3, whatever
<pitti> jbailey: what was the primary reason to ship them in the langpacks instead of 'locales'?
<doko> pitti: please don't take 2) too lightly ...
<Kamion> by 3) I assume you mean the localechooser build process
<jbailey> pitti: As in, why did we split them out?
<pitti> doko: somebody still needs to convince me that a static expected output tested against dynamic external data makes sense :)
<pitti> jbailey: yes
<Kamion> the rest of d-i's problems are due to 1) (namely, if you don't have network access and the language pack isn't on the CD, you can't even get the locale installed so you're doomed to a zillion perl errors on install)
<pitti> Kamion: well, that, and that CDs which do not ship the langpack for  the locale the user selects are broken
<Kamion> and you'll probably get wrong collation order etc.
<doko> pitti: ohh, I don't include glibc and binutils in the gcc testsuite as well. do you think I should?
<Kamion> pitti: right, I think that's more or less what I said?
<pitti> Kamion: yes, didn't get that line early enough :)
<Mithrandir> so 1) and 3) are really the same problem?
<pitti> yes, probably
<Kamion> Mithrandir: related, anyway
<Mithrandir> or 3) is a subinstance of 1)
<pitti> so it all comes down to shipping a locales definitions in 'locales' again
<jbailey_> Lagging a sec, X hung on me.
<pitti> unless anyone has a different great idea?
<Mithrandir> just making perl, etc shut up about not being able to set locale is possible, but it doesn't solve the problem, it just hides the symptoms.
<pitti> jbailey_: so which use case would break if we put the locale sources back into 'locales'?
<doko> pitti: so why not have a second folder for /usr/share/i18n/locales, which you can install updated locale data, and which is search first?
<pitti> doko: that's another option
<Kamion> Mithrandir: indeed, and I'm concerned that we don't generally test the case where setlocale() fails, at least not on the level of "will your desktop work properly"
<pitti> but that would mean to keep the locales data in two different sorts of packages, which I don't like
<doko> then you can ship the locale data in locales, and update them in rosetta
<Kamion> I'd much rather be able to assert that setlocale() will never fail immediately after a standard installation
<pitti> right, that seems easiest
<Mithrandir> I think the approach with shipping locale data in locales is fine, but we want it generated from the belocs data?
<jbailey_> pitti: The idea of having them split was two fold.  1) Genearting new languages in the future in Rosetta is then an isolated problem.  It doesn't need to affect other languages.
<pitti> so my question is what the primary reason was for splitting them out to langpacks in the first place
<jbailey_> 2) As we get more and more languages, it means more systems are carrying around baggage that they don't need.  We expect folks to install language packs anyway for all of their language components, so they then have the locale data present.
<doko> jbailey_: yes, but you can overcome this kind of problem with a second folder, which is searched
<pitti> hm, with a central location we need to update locales for every locale update, right, but that shouln't bite too hard?
<doko> jbailey_: /usr/share/i18n/locales is 750k compressed
<Kamion> there's another option which sort of addresses jbailey's baggage objections, although I don't like it for other reasons; still I might as well throw it out there
<doko> pitti: it's the only package built from the source package
<Kamion> create a udeb with all the locale data and have the installer copy in just the relevant locale
<jbailey_> What problem are we trying to solve here?  I think I missed that when my X died.
<pitti> doko: right, nowadays (was previously in libc, which hurted)
<Kamion> it does mean that the locale file is owned by no package
<Mithrandir> Kamion: doesn't solve the live cd problem, though.
<Kamion> 14:11 < Kamion> the rest of d-i's problems are due to 1) (namely, if you don't have network access and the language pack isn't on the CD, you can't even get the locale installed so you're doomed to a zillion
<Kamion>                 perl errors on install)
<Kamion> 14:14 < Kamion> Mithrandir: indeed, and I'm concerned that we don't generally test the case where setlocale() fails, at least not on the level of "will your desktop work properly"
<Kamion> jbailey_: ^-- basically that
<Kamion> (imho)
<doko> Kamion: and these files are installed during the installation?
<Kamion> and there's an analogous problem on the live CD
<Kamion> doko: yes, but as Mithrandir says it wouldn't solve the similar live CD problem anyway
<ogra> for edubuntu its more than perl errors, it breaks the complete install ...
<jbailey_> Is it correct for us to offer the locales as an installation option that aren't on the CD anyway?
<Kamion> jbailey_: not having the locale your environment variables say you do is a fair bit worse than not having any text
<jbailey_> It seems like it's a confusing thing to pick, say, French Canadian and not have the resulting system be in French Canadian.
<Kamion> jbailey_: yes; very few languages fit on the CD
<Kamion> I really don't want to strip our language offering down to that level
<pitti> jbailey_: I think so, language-selector can fix things up after installation
<Mithrandir> jbailey_: sure, especially since you can set LC_CTYPE to your local locale even though you don't want messages in that locale..
<jbailey_> Right, that's what I mean.  We generally expect people to be able to cope with English on the installed system.  I'm wondering if just having locales available on the CD is a bandaid solution.
<Kamion> and also localechooser doesn't have access to the contents of the CD yet
<Kamion> jbailey_: having the locale data for all languages on the CD has worked fine up until now
<jbailey> Hmm
<Kamion> as ogra says, not having a locale breaks various package maintainer scripts too
<pitti> yes, it looks totally ridiculous, but it works
<jbailey> Right, I agree that we shouldn't set a locale to something that's even not available.
<jbailey> It breaks things like printing in incredible subtle ways.
<Kamion> there's a case for saying that those maintainer scripts are buggy, but (a) the specific case in question is actually kind of non-obvious, (b) we don't test that scenario much
<jbailey> (like perl spew winding up in the middle of postscript output)
<jbailey> I'm just wondering if the right solution is to delay the whole language conversation until install time when the user has to deal with it anyway.
<Kamion> If you look at it from the point of view of a user who was using a supported language from warty->breezy (which is most users - I think we support >> 60% of the globe even without good support for the Indics), it seems like a cut-and-dried regression
<pitti> ok, so does anybody see a problem with that: we rebuild all langpacks without locales, stuff all locales back to 'locales'
<Kamion> jbailey: we don't have time for that sort of major reengineering in dapper, I'm afraid
<pitti> and we keep the locale installation/removal in the langpack postinst/prerm to avoid the conffile?
<jbailey> Kamion: I don't think labelling it as a 'regression' is valid here.
<Kamion> jbailey: I do, judging from my bugs
<jbailey> We break things all the time when chasing feature goals.  People are expected to read the release notes for system changes.
<jbailey> This isn't new.
<Kamion> Sure, breakage during development is fine, but this *will* be a regression come release.
<pitti> btw, NB that this doesn't affect upgrades so much
<jbailey> How so?  The release notes say "Install your language pack"
<pitti> just mainly new installs
<Kamion> in the installer, so of course not many developers care
<pitti> since locales for upgraded systems won't automatically be removed
<Kamion> jbailey: Edubuntu doesn't even *install*
<doko> pitti: when you talk about locale data, you only mean /usr/share/i18n/locales ?
<jbailey> Ihave a side concern about applications relying on locale data for their testsuite, I'd like to visit that after.
<Kamion> jbailey: also, I'm concerned that the initial desktop is not going to look great if the locale isn't there
<Kamion> for such a release note to be a valid get-out, stuff has to work right until you can install the language pack
<jbailey> Kamion: If you're expecting that you've installed the system in French, and it comes up in English, it's already not great.
<jbailey> I agree that we might not have time to reengineer this or dapper.
<Kamion> jbailey: seriously, this has been fine up until now, and we just made it lots worse
<jbailey> But I really do wonder if perhaps another question can be gotten rid of from the installer by punting it to runtime.
<Kamion> I really don't accept that this is somehow not a regression because we can push more of the job of the installer onto the user
<jbailey> I don't buy the argument "It's been fine up until now" as an argument to reverse it in the long term.
<jbailey> It needs to really be "The solution is wrong because of FOO"
<jbailey> I'm trying to ask whether or not the solution is right, and we just need to do the reenginneering.
<Mithrandir> jbailey_: in the (fairly common) case that the user has a network connection, she won't see it come up in English, she'll see it in French because the langpack has been downloaded.
<jbailey> Separate from the question of whether this whole thing is right for dapper.
<Kamion> OK, the solution is wrong because it makes it unnecessarily difficult for the installer to construct a minimally working system in the locale you requested in the absence of network access
<jbailey> Mithrandir: Err.. Really?  My dekstops all came up in English.
<Kamion> and it requires slow network access during install even if you *do* have network access
<Kamion> language packs aren't small
<jbailey> Right, I'll buy those as reasonable arguments then.
<ogra> especially in edubuntu, where i have gnome and kde langpacks this is a pain
<pitti> jbailey: french is shipped on the isntall CDs, just not on the live ones
<Kamion> ogra: the installer only needs to install the base langpack, so that isn't so bad
<jbailey> pitti: hmm.  I should check why it didn't work on my ppc installation sometime, then.
<pitti> jbailey: yes, that's a bit frightening; if you select the correct language in the installer, it should work
<ogra> Kamion, KDE-de is somewhere around 20-30MB
<pitti> ogra: uncompressed?
<ogra> nope
<pitti> ogra: the compressed deb should be around 4 MB
<ogra> all the stuff that gets downloaded
<pitti> anyway, it's still huge
<ogra> yup
<pitti> ogra: ah, that's language-support-de, for sure
<Kamion> Note that most of our live CDs only have English
<ogra> i wasnt talking about the liveCD ...
<Kamion> yeah, I know, just saying
<jbailey> Is there a threshold at which we should revisit this?
<jbailey> I know that the belocs locales are larger in their source form than the glibc locales one are, just because there's so many more of them.
<Kamion> basically if the live CD can't get at the locale, we need to make sure that the entire desktop works even in an incorrect locale until such time as you can run the language selector
<jbailey> I don't know off hand how much more they are.
<jbailey> But at some point, I'd assume that Rosetta will be pumping out new ones with updates and changes every week or so.
<jbailey> And as people add more languages, I don't know how big it will get.
<Kamion> There's a limit to how much we can do with those in the installer / live CD context anyway ...
<pitti> we can still update the locales package with that approach
<jbailey> Yup.  I'm just considering size-wise.
<jbailey> Like, if it hits a meg, do we suddenly care?  Is there another piece that we need to watch for?
<jbailey> (In mirror hit time for stable updates, etc)
<pitti> hm, one meg of new data would require us to double the number of locale definitions - that's certainly a lot
<Kamion> if it overflows the CD, we care, but that sounds like a very long way off
<jbailey> Right, but it might be a threshold at which someone notices and says "Hey, let's think about this", etc.
<jbailey> Okay, cool.  Measured that way is fine, too.
<Kamion> I'd say if it's << language pack size 
<Kamion> let me start again
<Kamion> I'd say if it's < language pack size, then we're probably OK, considering that language packs are updated (more?) regularly, there are loads more of them, and they're bigger
<Kamion> like, an average language pack
<jbailey> And I guess relative to langpack updates, updating the locales packages for folks on a regular basis won't be bad either.
<pitti> right
<pitti> but locales-updates is a bit too much for my taste
<pitti> so we should always update the whole lot
<jbailey> Yes, I think so.
<jbailey> It can still be generated by the same method you use now.
<Kamion> pitti: do you have a rough planned schedule for dapper locales/langpack updates?
<jbailey> And just generate a whole new package each time.
<pitti> Kamion: I'm still desperately wiating for Rosetta
<Kamion> mm, understood
<pitti> Kamion: but I can update the packs with buildd data at any time
<pitti> so, if we say we need locales centralized by tomorrow, I'll build new packs and update locales very soon
<jbailey> pitti: jordi and daf each seemed a bit surprised that updates with rosetta had any problem.  It might be worth poking a bit harder.
<Kamion> if I manage to arrange for netboot installations to install from breezy-updates, then at least netboot installs will have current locales from the beginning
<pitti> not sure how soon, my head is exploding (bad cold), but I'll manage
<Mithrandir> pitti: it's blocking a part of me, but I'm on VAC from Wednesday, so not a lot of hurry from me.
<Mithrandir> just a slight urgency.
<jbailey> I have an ongoing concern about packages build-dep'ing on locales for their testsuites.
<jbailey> I think it's still a mistake.
<pitti> ok, so shall we do that then? centralize locales again?
<pitti> jbailey: I agree, but that's pretty orthogonal, I think
<jbailey> pitti: Right.  It's more the "now that we're centralising, this becomes an issue again"
<pitti> the centralized file has the disadvantage that we probably need /etc/locale.gen back, or not?
<pitti> of course we could also add a 'generate only this locale' function to localedef
<pitti> but that wouldn't be updated with locales updates
<jbailey> Nothing static should be provided outside of the locales definition, since glibc has no knowledge of those locales.
<pitti> jbailey: sorry, I don't understand that
<jbailey> perhaps I misunderstood you then too.
<pitti> Currently I call localedef manually to generate a test locale (I need a latin1 one for testing)
<jbailey> What are you saying wouldn't get updated and might need to?
<pitti> that works fine, but when that locale is updated, nothing will rebuild it since it isn't mentioned in any config file
<pitti> we got rid of /etc/locale.def, right?
<jbailey> Oh, I see.
<pitti> and /v/l/locales/supported.d will not mention manually generated locales
<pitti> unless we teach locale-def to add a 'local' file there
<Kamion> it could, if locale-gen added one ... what you said
<Kamion> that's another good point, we have to honour people's requests for legacy locales
<Kamion> language packs don't do that because they only generate UTF-8 locales
<jbailey> Kamion: How legacy?  We drop old locales that don't make any sense anymore (Like where countries dissapear, etc.)
<pitti> so we could put all non-UTF8 locales to supported.d/local during the upgrade from the breezy locales package?
<Kamion> jbailey: legacy as in non-UTF-8
<pitti> ok, so far this all sounds like that there is only one solution that would not break too bad for now - locales back to 'locales', new langpacks without them, add legacy and local feature to locale-def
<pitti> does anybody still have a concern? The discussion seems to die down a bit
<doko> pitti: could you summarize?
<pitti> I just did
<pitti> locales back to 'locales', new langpacks without them, add legacy and local feature to locale-def
<jbailey> Just that I'd like to work with someone who knows a bit more about custom locales to help me make sure that the localedef hack does what they need.
<pitti> so new langpacks would stil automaticaly handle locales
<pitti> jbailey: I think it should be in locale-gen
<Kamion> jbailey: I think it should be a locale-gen hack (high-level) rather than a localedef hack (low-level)
<doko> pitti: what is "legacy and local feature"?
<pitti> doko: when upgrading from breezy, we put all locales not covered by langpacks to /var/lib/locales/supported.d/local
<jbailey> Ah, okay.  I was confused when you said locale-def =)
<doko> pitti: thanks
<pitti> doko: similarly, if you want to generate zh_CN.UTF-8 locally for testing, you don't need to install the zh langpack
<pitti> but just do sth like 'sudo locale-gen zh_CN.UTF-8'
<pitti> since this is mainly a developer feature, I think that's ok
<doko> pitti: let me re-ask: it's not enought to install locales for generating a locale?
<pitti> normal users won't care about locales
<Kamion> yeah, I have a bunch of locales lying around for man-db testing, similarly
<Kamion> which are in just about every encoding under the sun
<pitti> doko: right now not, but we have to change that
<doko> pittI: ok, thanks for clarifying. so we avoid changing other packages ...
<Kamion> doko: just installing the locales package won't generate all possible locales, if that's what you're asking
<jbailey> pitti, doko: Right, but that's what I'm saying shouldn't be done for testsuites.
<pitti> langpacks install would do --keep-existing, locales upgrade would regenerate them all, right?
<pitti> right
<pitti> test suites should have synthetic local locales
<jbailey> testsuites should not *count* on the data in the locales being consistant from one upload to the next.
<Kamion> same as it's been since BenC redid the locales package in Nov 2000
<pitti> yep
<doko> Kamion: true. but I am able to generate them myself with a b-d on locales (and only that b-d)
<Kamion> doko: right
<jbailey> You'll already find that in the Belocs locales that things like colation orders have changed for almost all western european locales.
<pitti> doko: but that does not prove anything
<pitti> doko: python wants to test that a locale with a particular date format spits out that date format; not that the date format in German is 14.01.2005
<doko> pitti: ?
<pitti> test suites want to test correct output for known input
<pitti> not test assumptions about external locale data
<pitti> e. g. above date format (it actually changes), or the assumption that 'german' is latin-1
<pitti> etc.
<doko> jbailey: well, then at least you can ping upstream to adopt their test suites
<pitti> right
<jbailey> doko: No! It's still a mistake.
<jbailey> Because it can still change often.
<jbailey> There's no promises around consistancy of that format.
<jbailey> s/format/definition/
<jbailey> Like right now, de_DE is different on our setup than other glibc based setups.
<pitti> ok, that's another discussion
<pitti> very interesting, but different
<jbailey> pitti: It wsa one of the three concerns you mentioned originally.
<pitti> jbailey: right
<pitti> jbailey: what I wanted to ask you is, do you see a major drawback with above plan?
<pitti> since decentralizing was a major step that had its reasons
<doko> jbailey: you won't convince upstream to ship locale data, because they got all they need for windows and mac with the system. why has linux to be an exception?
<jbailey> pitti: Nope.  It still leads us to the two goals I really care about 1) I don't want to have to think about locales. 2) I want Rosetta to think about locales.
<jbailey> pitti: The separateing into langpacks was a just a logical extension of the rosetta idea that didn't work out.
<pitti> right, I agree
<jbailey> doko: I suspect you're wrong on that, especially since it actually lets them test what they want to test.
<pitti> doko: then they either don't test on windows, or it's similarly broken
<jbailey> doko: I wouldn't ship whole locales, I would ship locale fragments that are designed to test particular i18n features.
<pitti> ok, thank you for that first part. sounds like a plan. I'll see to implement it ASAP
<Kamion> ok, sounds good, thanks all
<mvo> thanks
* Kamion goes back to horrible nasty debconf hacking
* mvo goes for lunch now
<doko> fine, let's delay the test discussion for dapper+1 ...
<pitti> doko: oh, spank upstream, tell'em to fix it, kthxbye :)
<jbailey> I think it's not so much, delay the test discussion as, it's not a bug when it breaks.
<jbailey> And if you try to fix it upstream, they may point out to you that on their systems it works fine.
<jbailey> And that's not a bug either.
<doko> pitti: unfortunately you have to address this with every upstream ...
<pitti> well, with everyone that tests locales
<pitti> it seems that you have the honor of maintaining the majority of these :)
<pitti> anyway, it's not something we have to fix in a hurry
#ubuntu-meeting 2005-12-25
<Kyral> Anyone know what time the meeting actually is?
<raphink> @ what time is community council today?
<Kyral> I have NO idea
<raphink> (or tomorrow for the ones for whom it's tomorrow)
<raphink> it's still marked as TBD
<seth_k|lappy> yep
<raphink> which is not very useful ;)
<raphink> btw, hi Kyral && seth_k|lappy :)
* seth_k|lappy wants to come and rip up the Ubuntuforums folk
<seth_k|lappy> hi raphink ^_^
<Kyral> seth_k|lappy: down
<raphink> how are your packages doing seth_k|lappy ?
<Kyral> seth_k|lappy: Its mostly resolved
<seth_k|lappy> raphink, I had five uploads yesterday, still waiting on kat b/c of sqlite issues
<seth_k|lappy> raphink, I'm doing bugreports today
<raphink> oh great :)
<Kyral> seth_k|lappy: Arnieboy is just royally PO'd at Seveas
<raphink> hug day is on thursday right?
<seth_k|lappy> tch tch
<seth_k|lappy> EVERY day is hug day!
<seth_k|lappy> :P
* raphink hugs seth_k|lappy 
<raphink> "We'll have a Bug day on Thursday, December 21th. The announce will go out to"
<raphink> (source : https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuBugDay/Draft )
<raphink> that means hey
<raphink> even more hugs on thursday ;)
* raphink never really worked on bugs ;)
<raphink> you'll need to mentor me on that seth_k|lappy ;)
<seth_k|lappy> btw raphink, what does ichthiux have that makes it ichthiux? I would go to the page, but il est temporairement inaccessible, et je ne sais pas quand il reviendra
<seth_k|lappy> or sommat
<seth_k|lappy> raphink, /me is reading wiki.launchpad.canonical.com/MaloneEmailInterfaceDoc right now
<raphink> the website was pirated some time ago :(
<raphink> porn images were inserted on it 
<seth_k|lappy> -_-
<raphink> so I closed the website
<raphink> since even changing the password didn't change 
<raphink> so I guessed it was a security hole in the wiki
<raphink> instead we began working on alioth
<raphink> which is better, safer
<raphink> what does ichthux have that makes it ichthux -> so far not much. The idea is to make is a CDD aimed to christian users and communities
<raphink> just as agnula is aimed to musicians for example
<raphink> ichthux is aimed to christians
<raphink> ;)
<raphink> doesn't prevent from installing both CDDs if you're both a musician and a christian ;)
<seth_k|lappy> well I have a Christian band, so I guess I'm both :P
<raphink> nice :)
<raphink>  I havent' been working much on ichthux lately
<raphink> but the work I do latley in Ubuntu helps me see how I could improve ichthux
<raphink> a big part of it is packaging, for what i'm concerned with
<raphink> packaging, tuning 
<raphink> gathering apps useful for christians, links, settings, graphics, etc.
<raphink> and tainting Debian systems with them using packages
<raphink> metapackages and tasks mostly
<raphink> ending with the release of a CD that would install Debian or Ubuntu with the ichthux task installed by default
<raphink> just as Kubuntu installs the kubuntu-desktop task by default
<raphink> seth_k|lappy: I consider there's no rush on this project
<FLeiXiuS> sleep <3
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:robitaille] : Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: http://people.ubuntu.com/~fabbione/irclogs/ | 20 Dec, time TBD: Community Council | 21 Dec 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 21 Dec 19:00 UTC:  Accessibility Team | 22 Dec 14:00 UTC:  Dapper Development Status | 30 Dec 22:00 UTC: DocTeam
<irvin> j #ubuntu-ph
<flint> god it is early...and the wrong day!!!!
<Treenaks> 8)
<raphink> TBD ...
<flint> ah well, back to the grindstone... bye
<jsgotangco> ok are we camping for the great CC meet wait? heh
<OgMaciel> hehe
<OgMaciel> guess so
<jsgotangco> nahh its definitely not going to happen =)
<OgMaciel> think so?
<OgMaciel> I got a friend "running" for membership
<OgMaciel> I promissed I'd try to be present
<OgMaciel> ;)
* MarioMeyer just waiting
<jsgotangco> meet meet meet meet meet meet meet
<jsgotangco> heh
<raphink> meeting is @ TBD
<raphink> there's still time 
<raphink> ;)
<OgMaciel> hehehe
* OgMaciel clock's big hand is very close to TBD
<MarioMeyer> well.. if there isn't one today, i think we'll only have one next year
<jsgotangco> or we declare a CC junta
<OgMaciel> they could call in an emergency meeting
<OgMaciel> hehehe
<OgMaciel> jsgotangco, mutiny!!! ;)
<OgMaciel> ay ay captain
<jsgotangco> i don't think that's a good idea...
<jsgotangco> =)
<OgMaciel> hehe
<Kyral> morngin
<raphink> hi Kyral 
* sivang wonders about the random meetings thgat are organized here lately.
<raphink> lol
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:Kamion] : Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: http://people.ubuntu.com/~fabbione/irclogs/ | 20 Dec 20:00 UTC: Community Council | 21 Dec 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 21 Dec 19:00 UTC:  Accessibility Team | 22 Dec 14:00 UTC:  Dapper Development Status | 30 Dec 22:00 UTC: DocTeam
<Kamion> by fiat
<Kamion> sorry for the short notice
<jsgotangco> 20
<jsgotangco> oh well
* Kyral shrugs
<Kyral> cya all in 5 hours
<Kyral> hey elmo
<freemanen> Is it ok to watch the meeting?
<ogra> yup
<ogra> all meetings are public
<freemanen> thanks
<raphink> freemanen: beware if you're caught watching  a meeting!
<raphink> you'll be banned for ever ;)
<raphink> hehe
<raphink> ;)
<freemanen> ???
<raphink> j/k
<mvo> no worries, the worst that can happen is that you get interessted and spend all your free time helping with ubuntu :)
<ogra> yes, its slightly addictive :)
<zul> its like crack
<freemanen> then does the meting start?
<Bonzodog> one hour
<manicka> hello all
<Kyral> hello
<zul> hi
<akurashy> hey manicka
<FLeiXiuS> Hello all.
<FLeiXiuS> UTC is so evil.
<KingBahamut|Work> afternoon all
<Kyral> hey
<akurashy> hey dad *runs*
<KingBahamut|Work> sigh
<akurashy> :)
<Kyral> elmo: do you have a second?
<Bonzodog> excellent; forum rep
<akurashy> darkmatter!
* akurashy tackle hugs darkmatter
* darkmatter hugs akurashy
<Amaranth> 90 minutes?
<darkmatter> 'ello
<Bonzodog> 40 minutes Amaranth
<Amaranth> oh yeah, daylight savings time is over
<KingBahamut|Work> life was better under GMT
<KingBahamut|Work> =)
<zenrox> not
<zenrox> lol
<FLeiXiuS> Absolutely..
<FLeiXiuS> :-)
* zenrox hands out rockcandy samples
<FLeiXiuS> Oh for a second there, I thought they were pop rocks.  I would've snatched and run!
<zenrox> nope
<zenrox> rockcandy
<zenrox> its kinda like hard candy 
<zenrox> but looks like shale type rock
<Amaranth> rockcandy is drugs here ;)
<zenrox> deffently not that type of candy
<zenrox> 6 mins
<robotgeek> hey seth_k|lappy , i got in before you :)
<seth_k|lappy> robotgeek, yeah, I had to run to work ;)
<robotgeek> hi #ubuntu-meeting
<KingBahamut|Work> hello robotgeek
<zenrox> hi
<lucas> hi robotgeek ;)
<zenrox> 4 min
<zenrox> errr3
<raphink> :)
<robotgeek> hey a little chatter before the meeting never hurt anyone 
<seth_k|lappy> hi raphink :)
<zenrox> robotgeek: nope
<jenda> hello chatterbox
<KingBahamut|Work> not that I know of robotgeek 
<KingBahamut|Work> =)
<raphink> hi seth_k|lappy 
<robotgeek> KingBahamut|Work: get off work :)
<raphink> :)
<mdke> gotta love the countdowns
<hybrid> robotgeek: until someone gets mad and kills people
<zenrox> 2 mins
<robotgeek> lol
<Kyral> stop counting down its annoying
<zenrox> i cant wate
<zenrox> lol
<hybrid> if i yelled "Windows Pwns" would i get in trouble?
<OgMaciel> 5... 4... 3... 2... 1... HAPPY NEW YEAR!!!
<zenrox> rofl
<OgMaciel> UHHH
<OgMaciel> oops
<OgMaciel> hehehe
<raphink> OgMaciel: ??
<raphink> hmm
<robotgeek> OgMaciel: not in my time zone
<KingBahamut|Work> Let old friend be narry forgottenn......
<raphink> happy new CC !!
* hybrid kisses OgMaciel "Happy New Year"
<raphink> :)
<KingBahamut|Work> la la la la la 
* zenrox opens a can of mt. dew
<OgMaciel> raphink, wrong occasion hehehe
<raphink> hehe
<Kyral> ,,,,
<Kamion> ok, way to annoy CC members who have to read scrollback
<robotgeek> :)
<Kamion> please take the party to #ubuntu-offtopic or something
<OgMaciel> KingBahamut|Work, hehehe... festive mood, aren't we?  ;)
<KingBahamut|Work> mdke: stop the countdown , I dont want to turn the key 
<KingBahamut|Work> sorry, bad Wargames ref, wheres the WOPR when you need it 
* zenrox bows politely
<mdke> please guys, listen to Kamion 
<KingBahamut|Work> noted 
<Kamion> I've pinged sabdfl, hopefully he'll be here in a minute
<Kamion> elmo: here?
<FLeiXiuS> mdke: Ahh you are here :-)
<Kamion> mako has mail, but I have no idea if he'll be around
<mdke> FLeiXiuS, ?
<raphink> :)
<FLeiXiuS> mdke: Nothing :-P
<elmo> Kamion: yeah
<jenda> so... the cauntdown is over... where's the meeting?
<zenrox> jenda:  here
<Amaranth> jenda: waiting for CC members to arive
<zenrox> yep
<Amaranth> jenda: we need 3 of them
<Kyral> Just calm down
<Kamion> elmo: Mark in the office?
<jenda> :)
* zenrox sits in a chair around the CC table
* jenda sits in the throne just next to ya
<elmo> Kamion: not sure, I'm @ home
* hybrid sits in a CC members chair
* Kyral sighs
* paulvg joins the audience
* lucasvo stays at the door and will have a look at CC
<sabdfl> evening all
<paulvg> hi
<Kyral> hey Mark
<Bonzodog> hi
<jenda> there he is :), hello
<zenrox> evning sabdfl 
<KingBahamut|Work> good day 
<manicka> hi
<FLeiXiuS> good evening sabdfl 
<teroedni> hello sabdfl:)
<raphink> hi sabdfl 
<ogra> UbuntuForumDiscussion (now resolved)  ??? 
<FLeiXiuS> Alright lets get down to business :-)
<hybrid> sabdfl: ya act like ya started ubuntu or something ... :p
<ogra> really ? 
<Kamion> ah, right, let's start then
<Kamion> wiki licensing
<Kamion> oh, glad to hear the forums issue is resolved, btw
<mdke> hi all
* sabdfl reads the page, sorry for being slow
<Kamion> congratulations to all involved there on finding middle ground
<kjcole> Hiya.
<Kamion> mdke: wanna give a quick precis?
<Amaranth> ogra: yeah, we got it figured out (mostly)
<mdke> Kamion, sabdfl did you have a chance to read the spec?
<ogra> cool !
<KingBahamut|Work> aye Kamion
<sabdfl> Amaranth: well done
* Amaranth had almost nothing to do with it
<Kyral> Yah I think the only problem is the small fued between Seveas and Arnieboy
<Kamion> mdke: only very briefly, still reading
<mdke> Kamion, cool, i'll summarise while you are
<paulvg> a pity seveas aint here
<sabdfl> ok
<Amaranth> seveas? i thought it was me and arnieboy :)
<Amaranth> anyway, next topic
<sabdfl> mdke: how will we integrate items that are not in the public domain?
<mdke> sabdfl, that's the outstanding issue on the spec :)
<mdke> one of two options
<hno73> sabdfl: items already in the wiki or new items?
<mdke> *three
<sabdfl> hno73: both
<mdke> ok new items would be no problem
<mdke> because they would be added on the basis of being put in the public domain
<Kyral> I thought it was GFDL...
<mdke> old items are the tricky bit
<Kamion> wikipedia had a similar issue and had to go around contacting everyone, IIRC
<sabdfl> licence interop is complex, and i can see the value of saying "ok, let's basically get out of the way and not add any new barriers"
<hno73> A notice on the edit page would take care of new items
* mdke nods at hno73 
<mdke> as for old items, as i say, i think there are 3 options
<mdke> 1. go around contacting all users
<sabdfl> hno73: +1, whatever we decide, should be clearly stated on the edit page for future reference
<mdke> 2. remove everything
<mdke> 3. assume that all current material has already been made public domain, and not bother asking everyone
<KingBahamut|Work> mdke: on the UDSF we just reference back to you, because of those issues...
<Kamion> I'm definitely not keen on 2. - lots of work for negative gain in the short term
<mdke> yeah 2 is out for me
<mdke> i like 3, with an implementation for resolving any potential disputes in a nice way
<sabdfl> -2 on 2 :-)
<Kamion> 3. sounds like it requires checking with a lawyer :(
<mdke> Kamion, o.o
<Amaranth> I'd think 3 would be good. Default to public domain and if anyone doesn't like that they need to speak up.
<kjcole> Would it be worth anything to also have something similar to the CoC signing that attempts to make sure folks acknowledge that they've read and understand it?
<sabdfl> 3 has the feel "woooo pretend this is all cooool"
<sabdfl> Amaranth: you can't just nationalise someone else's property
<Kyral> umm...excuse me for being unknowledgable, but is the GFDL complient with the Wiki License?
<zenrox> i think if you post it on a web page it is public domain
<zenrox> imho
<elmo> sabdfl: that's arguable when they dumped their property in your yard voluntarily
<sabdfl> Kyral: we don't have a wiki licence, that's what's caused this confusion
<Kamion> I can see your argument that wikis are naturally collaborative do-what-you-like documents, but authors often take quite a proprietorial attitude to documentation
<hno73> #1 is technically doable since we have people's login email addresses
<Kyral> sabdfl: ah
<mdke> zenrox, that's not correct, but you can argue that with a wiki, it is
<sabdfl> elmo: arguable == lawyer's fees
<lucas> what about (1) for a month, then (2) or (3) on a contributor by contributor basis ? (do we have full history for all pages ?)
<sabdfl> is the website content under a specific licence?
<elmo> there's a variation on (3), which is to assume public domain, send out a wide announce, and ask for anyone who objects to contact us, and we'll deal with that material on a case by case basis
<Amaranth> Can you send an email to everyone that's contributed, wait 2 or so weeks, move everything to public domain unless someone speaks up?
<KingBahamut|Work> sabdfl , then CC:PD it and make a reasonable assessment to the userbase ?
<mdke> Kamion, i look at it like this: not many people will complain if we do 3. If they do, and we are open to resolving the problem nicely, like removing it if they are insistent, then there will be absolutely NP
<Kamion> elmo: I prefer that option
<elmo> sabdfl: over a wiki page?  vs. the crap we have in multiverse?  I don't think it's a remotely sane comparison
<sabdfl> yes, we can announce and wait for comment, but then we could do that with any licence, not just PD
<mdke> elmo, exactly my view too
<elmo> sabdfl: (but it's not my money ;)
<Kamion> mdke: I think we need to give due notice as elmo suggests ...
<mdke> Kamion, yes that sounds fine too
<sabdfl> if we impose any licence at this stage, we have to announce widely and wait for comments
<KingBahamut|Work> Kamion, give the user time to respond, perhaps, yes?
<Kamion> KingBahamut|Work: indeed
<sabdfl> so, why CC:PD rather than CC-SA? don't we want a copyleft in there?
<mdke> sabdfl, it won't get to needing lawyers fees, because no one is making any profit anyway, but of course, it's nice to do things properly
<hno73> I think #3 becomes more acceptable if we have made an honest attempt at #1
<Kamion> we need to work out in advance what to do when (I'm pessimistic enough not to say if) people object
<Amaranth> KingBahamut|Work: Would you be willing to follow along with what the official wiki does for docs.gwos.org?
<mdke> sabdfl, as for PD, it makes a lot of sense because the wiki material gets fed into other documentation
<Kamion> sabdfl: I'd like to see it be possible for wiki content to be copied into the distribution as widely as possible, personally, and not to have to worry about licensing conflicts
<KingBahamut|Work> sabdfl, it was my understanding that the documentation was to be as open as possible
<kjcole> Keep in mind that some people who are contributing to the wiki (a) would like a little pat on the head -- especially if it's the only thing they're able to do, and (b) don't want their work "ruined" (a relative term).
<Kamion> also on a more practical note I think more people are likely to object to a copyleft, and the fewer objectors the better :)
<KingBahamut|Work> Amaranth , for the sake of openess , yes we are , thus the current stage of lisc.
<Kamion> although that's just a gut feeling
<mdke> kjcole, in the spec, I noted that they can make their own webpages for that
<Kamion> kjcole: the wording of a relicensing mail would have to be very careful
<lucas> CC-SA is not fully DFSG-compatible, AFAIK
<KingBahamut|Work> sabdfl , Id want what comes from UDSF to wiki and vicea versa to be happy both ways....ergo open as possible
<Kamion> but I think ultimately it *is* a wiki and people do need to expect that other people will be working on it
<sabdfl> do we want to be able to allow people to set a different licence on wiki content they *initialise*, page by page?
<kjcole> mdke, Sorry.  Missed that.
<mdke> lucas, that's not a consideration here, but i definitely think PD is the way to go
<mdke> sabdfl, really not, that would be mayhem
<sabdfl> lucas: neither is GFDL, and we have used that for books, for example
<KingBahamut|Work> mdke, correct sir
<sabdfl> me, i prefer a copyleft, i think it's what makes free software go zoom
<zenrox> i prefer copyleft
<Kamion> the only way for different licences on different pages to be viable IMHO is if the wiki has special code to display which licence each page is under
<zenrox> too
<Kyral> I like copyleft
<mdke> sabdfl, i agree, but I think the wiki is a special case which calls for PD
<KingBahamut|Work> mdke, I aggree with you 
<mdke> we can't attribute every single contributor to every single page that gets used
* hno73 agrees with mdke, copyleft gets messy with text
<sabdfl> mdke: does CC-SA require attribution?
<mdke> and keeping track of different licences would be even worse
<lucasvo> I quite like GFDL, since Linux is gpl, why should the the documentation be opendomain(so every company can use it and make money with it)?
<Kyral> doesn't the wiki have a changelog?
<lucas> PD++ (and I'm usually a copyleft-fan)
<paulvg> sabdfl: all currect cc licenses have attribution
<hno73> Kyral: yes it does
<sabdfl> lucasvo: you can make money with gpl and gfdl
<paulvg> *current
<Kamion> lucasvo: I'd rather not get into the whole GFDL debate, but many people (myself included) don't think that the GFDL is in the same spirit as the GPL; also it's GPL-incompatible which is very inconvenient
<mdke> paulvg, that's not right
<paulvg> there are older ones, but the latest version afaik always has attribution
<mdke> sabdfl, cc-by-sa does, but i suppose a cc-sa doesn't
<lucasvo> sabdfl: yes, I mean, changing it and do not give back
<Kamion> particularly for any documentation that could end up as e.g. inline help in GPL programs
<mdke> paulvg, the public domain one certainly doesn't
<paulvg> ofcourse
<paulvg> but thats not really cc
<paulvg> it existed before
<lucas> sabdfl: there's no CC SA, it's CC BY-SA (see http://creativecommons.org/about/licenses/meet-the-licenses )
<mdke> thanks luca
<mdke> s
<sabdfl> ok. afaiac mdke is the master of the wiki and i am happy to follow his recommendation. +1 on CC:PD from me, following the process elmo described. kamion? elmo?
<mdke> lol
* mdke points at hno73 
<Kamion> that's fine by me, if somebody can take up the action of contacting contributors
<mdke> can i ask
<Bonzodog> We already have CC:PD in place
<Bonzodog> at UDSF
<Kamion> sorry, UDSF?
<mdke> elmo, was your suggestion to make a general announcement, or to attempt to contact individuals?
<sabdfl> we can easily contact contributors since we moved to launchpad auth for the wiki
<Bonzodog> Document Storage Facility
<KingBahamut|Work> Kamion , http://doc.gwos.org
<lucas> what about adding a field on LP like "I agree to switch to PD for my wiki content" ?
<sabdfl> dunno if moin helps us beyond that
<Kamion> Bonzodog: thanks
<elmo> mdke: if we can identify indviduals who've made edits to the wiki, I think we should do both
<elmo> and cc:pd etc. is fine by me too
<mdke> elmo, sabdfl, would someone do a script for that?
<Kamion> I think due legal notice probably requires at least the latter, though IANAL obviously
<robotgeek> elmo: just email everyone, saying that that if you have contributed, read this email?
<hno73> robotgeek: +1
<KingBahamut|Work> robotgeek , thats a big email list I suspect 
<sabdfl> if someone who knows moin can pull out all the contributor's LP id's or WikiName's, we can get email addresses for them yes
<hno73> much easier :)
<mdke> sabdfl, maybe spiv knows how to do it...
<hno73> We would need to write a script to check all the edits
<sabdfl> mdke: ok, will you discuss that with him? we'll get it tasked and scheduled if its going to take time
<hno73> and then there was the migration from Zwiki ...
<mdke> sabdfl, sure, rock
<sabdfl> in the meanwhile, we should announce the planned change and coming emails
<Kyral> what does the Wiki use for a backend?
<robotgeek> Kyral: moin moin
<hno73> in which all the edit history was left behind
<sabdfl> Kyral: LP for account details, text files for... the text files
<hno73> (exists in backups though)
<mdke> hno73, if people haven't edited the wiki since then... they're really not gonna care I'm thinking ;)
<KingBahamut|Work> mdke, your probably right about that 
<sabdfl> hno73: good point. we probably lost all of that revision history in zwiki
<robotgeek> it does leave a vulnerable point (since we are doing this by the book)
<hno73> sabdfl: it's still in a zope database somewhere, but extracting that is likely non-trivial
<hno73> in the form we want
<mdke> i don't think it is worth the effort
<Kamion> the e-mail that goes out should contain an explanation of the issue and a rationale for why we think public domain is (a) a good idea and (b) not intended as an attack on their intellectual property etc.
<Kamion> (or something like that)
<zenrox> agreed
<mdke> Kamion, we can prepare it on the wiki as a subpage of that spec if you like
<sabdfl> mdke: w.r.t. pages that currently have attribution, i don't think we need to *remove* names, but we should make it clear that attribution is not required
<hno73> Kamion: agree
<Kamion> mdke: works for me
<sabdfl> mdke: +1
<sabdfl> hno73: i don't think we need to trawl that far back, we can deal with any cases that come out of the woodwork on a case-by-case basis
<hno73> sabdfl: cool
<sabdfl> ok, did we get +1 from quorum?
<mdke> sabdfl, how about moving attribution to the bottom? :)
<Kamion> I think so, yes
<sabdfl> mdke: np
<Kamion> mdke: that's an editing task, and therefore WHATEVER :-)
<mdke> great, thanks very much y'all
<sabdfl> well done
<hno73> that just leaves writing that script :)
<kjcole> When collecting names for e-mail, can one also use that to create a "roster of contributors" for elsewhere in the wiki?  (Or some other token acknowledgement of contributions if or when attribution is removed from wiki pages)?
<mdke> kjcole, the revision history for each page is only a click away
<Kamion> kjcole: if that could be maintained automatically by the wiki itself, I'd be all in favour
<Amaranth> anyone up for some moin hacking? :)
* mdke points frantically at the revision history link on each page
<kjcole> mdke, I was thinking of something a bit prettier, but it's a minor thing.
<Kamion> mdke: I can see the value in an automatically-generated contributors list for each page distilled from that
<mdke> kjcole, also I think people can note their contributions on their homepage, that is a nice way of doing things, IMO
<Kamion> that sounds like a pretty tiny moin hack
<Kamion> the revision history page already has several modes
<mdke> Kamion, that's a developing task, WHATEVER :-)
<Kamion> :-)
<mdke> sounds like a nice idea
<sabdfl> mdke: it would be nice if moin could automatically show the pages someone has touched
<sabdfl> and the touchiness involved
<sabdfl> but we digress
<mdke> sabdfl, oh yeah that would be a cool macro
<Bonzodog> it's worth noting that the doc facility uses the MediaWiki software
<sabdfl> what other business do we have?
<mdke> new members
<sabdfl> when shall we three meet again, in thunder, lightning, or in 2006?
<zenrox> irc team formation
* Kamion votes for 2006
<Kamion> although two weeks' time is 2006 anyway :)
<Kamion> new members
<Kamion> LucasNussbaum
* hno73 looks at the moin file structure and sees that there is an edit-log file for each page, so the parsing should be fairly simple
* lucas is Lucas Nussbaum
<lucas> shall I post my summary ?
<sabdfl> clusters & grids!
<sabdfl> have you spoken with fabbione?
<sabdfl> go ahead with your summary
<lucas> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LucasNussbaum - https://launchpad.net/people/nussbaum
<lucas> 24 years old, PhD student living in Grenoble (.fr). Long time Debian user. Have been one of the "no-name-yet" beta testers, and have been using Ubuntu since then. Got interested in MOTU in september when I discovered that some ruby packages weren't in good shape. Member of MOTURuby and Debian's pkg-ruby-extras team, maintainer (but not DD) of a few packages in Debian, for which I'm upstream.
<lucas> Current work & plans inside Ubuntu: Help reduce the current MOTU bottleneck (merges missing reviews, packages waiting in REVU), general MOTU work (esp. Ruby-related packages, but also others), help improve the MOTU process to make it more efficient by writing useful tools (see my motutools work for example).
<lucas> I haven't spoken with fabbione - he is in the same field ?
<sabdfl> fabbione is leading the ubuntu server team
<ogra> he is our server god
<sabdfl> and is very interested in clusters
<sabdfl> he did the oracle clusterfs work on ubuntu for example
<sabdfl> and i'm sure would love to hear from you
* fabbione looks on earth from his server Olympus
<fabbione> yes
<jjesse> all hail the server god
<sabdfl> fabbione: you rock
<fabbione> lucas: you are welcome to contact me after the meeting
<fabbione> sabdfl: dude.. only thanks to you :)
<lucas> I should. I'm part of a french research project linking several clusters together to reach 5000 nodes, and some clusters already use ubuntu
<lucas> fabbione: I will :)
<fabbione> lucas: great!
<sabdfl> any motu folks care to support lucas based on work done together?
<sabdfl> lucas: your wiki page is really excellent
<zenrox> agreed
<sabdfl> it gave me a very clear idea what you have already done and your interests going forward
<mdke> yeah, nice work lucas 
* lucas hears the overwhelming support ;)
<KingBahamut|Work> lucas, I think ill have a chat with you later too if I can
<ogra> lucas is very active in MOTU and even if we sometimes disagreed about topics, i enjoyed the discussions with him... they were always fruitful and getting us forward ...
<sabdfl> ok. for membership, +1 from me on the basis of a solid contribution over a long period
<ogra> a total +1 from my side 
<Kamion> lucas: I'm glad you've stuck around, I remember talking with you about ruby before breezy released when it was basically too late to do anything about it
<ogra> and i know from \sh_away's and dholbachs too ...
<ogra> (even if i cant speak for them officially)
<sabdfl> it would be great to have rails rocking in dapper, is that something you're interested in lucas?
<lucas> Kamion: I hope we will do better for dapper :)
<sabdfl> elmo?
<lucas> sabdfl: rails is difficult to package because of some issues related to rubygems
<Kamion> +1 for lucas
<lucas> we are trying to make things moving with pkg-ruby-extras (debian team)
<sabdfl> ok
<kjcole> I guess I now get a vote.  So from what I saw +1.  (lucas makes my contributions look pretty meager by comparison.)
* ogra puts on the miniskirt and digs for the pompoms to cheer for azeem
<elmo> ack for lucas
<OgMaciel> congrats lucas
<lucas> thanks all :)
<sabdfl> welcome aboard
<sabdfl> azeem: ping
<mdke> welcome lucas, good work
* ogra applauds lucas
<Kamion> lucas: BTW I'm sure Ian would be interested in directed feedback on how AutomatedTesting and ruby interact
<lucas> Kamion: I already briefly talked with him, but I'm waiting to get a better picture of this when he starts releasing some code
<Kamion> *nod*
<ogra> btw, is lifeless here ? 
<zenrox> ogra:  nope
<ogra> azeem and lifeless have been working through the nights in MOTU recently ...
<Kyral> he's in #ubuntu-motu
<sabdfl> right now?
<ogra> he could give a good insight in azeems value in helping people at packaging tasks :)
<Kyral> yah
<seth_k|lappy> sabdfl, lifeless is away, idle 7+ hours
<ajmitch> azeem has been a DD for quite awhile, and helped me with debian stuff in the past :)
<Kyral> I dunno if he's away though, but his nick is there
<ajmitch> now we just have to find him..
<sabdfl> ok, he's away
<sabdfl> irvin: ping
* irvin is IrvinPiraman
<sabdfl> irvin:  you're up, would you give us a quick three-line summary of your activities in ubuntu and your interest going forward?
<irvin> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IrvinPiraman - https://launchpad.net/people/ippiraman
<irvin> I'm 27, an Electrical Engineer by profession. Currently has a full-time job at www.transco.ph. My first encounter with GNU/Linux was with Gentus Linux (installer bundled with ABIT mboards) in the mid-to-late-90's. I also took a shot using Mandrake, OpenBSD, and FreeBSD mostly for fun and learning experience only. 
<irvin> I came across Ubuntu since the Warty release but never really got serious with it until the release of Hoary Hedgehog when my printer worked out of the box. I ditched Windows then has been tracking updates until today.
<irvin> I was first involved with Ubuntu when I voluntarily tested the company-owned Compaq Evo N110 laptop with Hoary until Breezy. I later learned of fellow Filipinos in the community namely jsgotangco, zakame, pusakat, etc. and joined in the LocoTeam. As of today I am a volunteer member of Edubuntu, Edubuntu Artwork, Ubuntu Team Philippines, Ubuntu Tagalog Translators, Ubuntu Marketing Team, and the UbuntuGIS.
<sabdfl> irvin: can you think of ways we can help the broadband-impaired to be active in the ubuntu community?
<irvin> i like the idea of debian having cds that can be downloaded and installed offline
<ogra> we have jigdo ...
<irvin> i want to see it in ubuntu too
<Kamion> irvin: I guess PPP is related too; if you know the internals of the installer, or know people on dialup who do, I'd like to work with them to brush up our PPP support
<Amaranth> there is a DVD with all of main on it, isn't there?
<ogra> yup
<Kamion> it's pretty ropey at the moment because most of the people working on the installer are on broadband
<ogra> Amaranth, but there are people who want universe on DVD ...
<irvin> orga indeed
<Amaranth> i wish the universe fit on a DVD...
<KingBahamut|Work> Amaranth , I didnt think it could fit on a DVD
<sabdfl> ok, +1 for membership for irvin from me, based on translation work
<zenrox> Amaranth:  also too some ppl on 56k dont have dvd readers eaither
<jenda> I think they could be more involved if it were easier to downlad packages on one computer and use the media (a CD) as a repository on the broadband impaired PC
<jjesse> not all of us in the U.S. are broadband either
<irvin> i'm also thinking of having a web-based apt interface
<robotgeek> irvin: +1
<irvin> so even windows users can download packages and its dependencies, zip it, burn and install later
<ogra> +++ for taking on the GIS stuff ... and ++ for edubuntu indeed ;)
<robotgeek> it would help sort out the chicken and egg problem, "how do i get this without internet"
<Kamion> irvin: http://packages.ubuntu.com/, sort of (third-party service)
<robotgeek> Kamion: no dependencies atumatically
<Kamion> I know it's not quite the same
<irvin> Kamion, not very useful, since you'll have to manually download dependencies
<Kamion> robotgeek: sure, but it does link to all the dependencies at least
<robotgeek> Kamion: to a new user, it is quite daunting 
<Kamion> but yeah, improving that would be good, just saying it's not *entirely* missing, just kinda poor at the moment :)
<jenda> irvin: that would be great - in combination with an easy way to install packages from CD, that would be a solution for dialuppers and the internet-less
<mvo> irvin: I like your idea a lot, I would love to talk to you about it later
<irvin> robotgeek, indeed. i remember getting xchm
<ogra> gdebi-ng could be something like that 
<irvin> thanks mvo 
<ogra> ;)
<Kamion> +1 for irvin based on translation work and sustained advocacy, anyway
<Kyral> Could we put a "Download all depends" link in Packages.ubuntu.com?
<robotgeek> Kyral: :)
<irvin> Kyral, that would be nice
<irvin> Kyral, but how to deal with updates?
<Amaranth> make gdebi detect CDs with packages on them with some hal/g-v-m magic
<azeem> uhm, hi
<ogra> Kyral, depends might also have dependencys
<Amaranth> irvin: binary diffs would be nice
<Amaranth> oh, azeem is here!
<Kyral> irvin: you mean to the packages?
<ogra> hey azeem 
<jjesse> updates are a pain, some of us just borrow works high  speed internet to update
<azeem> well, technically, I'm at a christmas party
<Kyral> ogra: if we assume they have ubuntu-desktop installed, then we can assume what packages they have already
<robotgeek> irvin: most of the times, it's people without internet. they just want to get an additional package
<irvin> Kyral, if there's an update package 
<Kyral> irvin: you mean like every two weeks or so?
<sabdfl> elmo: irvin?
<elmo> ack
<ogra> Kyral, you cant always assume they have u-d installed ... but thats nothing for a CC meeting now ..
<Kyral> ogra: agreed, we can talk in #ubuntu-motu
<irvin> i'm subscribed to breezy-changes so i know if there's any updates i need to download
<sabdfl> ok, welcome aboard irvin. azeem, you're up!
<mdke> welcome irvin 
<irvin> thanks all
<irvin> happy holidays!
<ogra> congrats irvin 
<ogra> :)
<irvin> thanks ogra 
<ogra> azeem ?
<zenrox> azeem:  we need 3 lines about you
<sabdfl> ok, let's go on without azeem
<zenrox> yep
<sabdfl> Ananda Putra?
<sabdfl> lucasd?
<sabdfl> lucasd has done a LOT of translation by the looks of things
<sabdfl> pity he's not here
<zenrox> lol
<sabdfl> do we have any other member candidates here?
<OgMaciel> sabdfl, he's been busy helping out the Brazilian team
<sabdfl> OgMaciel: yes, i can see, and he seems to be doing a lot
<OgMaciel> it is a shame he's not here
<sabdfl> he would definitely get my +1 on membership
<kjcole> (Both the lucas's of today had great stuff.)
<OgMaciel> sabdfl, I have actually lured quite a few translators these days
<sabdfl> :-)
<OgMaciel> ;)
<sabdfl> see, shiny rosetta ...
<lucas> :-)
<sabdfl> ok folks, can we wrap up?
<ogra> looks like :)
<zenrox> i have new businness
<Kamion> zenrox: go for it
<sabdfl> zenrox: what's up?
<zenrox> i think thare shuld be an irc team
<Kyral> We were discussing this in #ubuntuforums just before the meeting
<Bonzodog> If I can just interject, zenrox is dyslexic
<zenrox> yep
<Kyral> Bonzodog: makes no difference
<mdke> relevancy?
<Amaranth> IRC Team?
<Amaranth> We kind of already do, no?
<Bonzodog> just to excuse the spelling errors
<Amaranth> I mean, we have the ops in #ubuntu and such.
<mdke> Bonzodog, ah, no one spells nylthing right in irc :)
<mdke> anything
<zenrox> but i think it would be nice to intertwine all the #ubuntu channels with rules (per channel) and have a central team controling it
* mdke proves own point
<Kyral> Amaranth: I think he meant a way to monitor all the channels
<hybrid> mdke: rofl
<Amaranth> ah
<Kyral> Like put a Logbot in official channels
<Amaranth> so one set of ops for all channels and ubuntubot in all channel
<zenrox> Kyral:  basckly we
<zenrox> yes
<ogra> isnt that the case ? 
<Kamion> we already do, although there are channel limits that it's running up against
<mdke> Kyral, there are logbots in all channels that want one more or less
<Kyral> Kamion: Logbot1 Logbot2?
<zenrox> Amaranth:  yes
<Kamion> I think it can only join up to 20 channels or so, but talk to fabbione if it's missing one
<Kyral> mdke: ah
<mdke> Kamion, smurf runs one too for locochannels
<Kamion> right
<OgMaciel> sabdfl,  I'd like to bring something up too... BUG 5278  (https://launchpad.net/products/launchpad/+bug/5278)
<Bonzodog> the #ubuntuforums channel does not have one
<ogra> for edubuntu we have the officiall fabbione bot in #edubuntu and the LoCoBot in the localized channels ...
<Amaranth> I've had people ask me to get rid of trolls in such in #kubuntu before, but I'm only an op in #ubuntu
<mdke> Bonzodog, log bots are pretty easy
<smurf> You can teach the bot to connect more than once
<zenrox> as i dont know how to form a team id like help to set this up 
<Kyral> Could all members have some level of access? *prepares to hide*
<smurf> mine has three freenode connections open ATM :-/
<Amaranth> Kyral: That'd get complicated.
<zenrox> and help set up the rules and regs and etc...
<sabdfl> elmo: what's the right process to update an @ubuntu.com email address for OgMaciel's bug?
<Kamion> Kyral: I'm inclined to think that integrating Launchpad membership with IRC is likely to be just waaaaaaaay too much pain
<Amaranth> Kyral: The only feasible solution would be to have all the members link to a nick.
<Amaranth> Kyral: But freenode has a limit on how many linked nicks you can have.
<Kyral> actually I need ping elmo about my @ubuntu.com as well
<Kamion> and ties us very much to Freenode in case we ever want to move off
<elmo> sabdfl: the auto-update stuff is down atm, due to some refactoring - I'm working on it with SteveA
<Kyral> Kamion: Don't get zenrox started about that one
<elmo> if updates are important, they can bug me and I'll do it by hand
<zenrox> Kamion:  that is also part of my propsal of forming the irc team
<Kyral> Kamion: I had to talk him outta it earlier
<Kamion> Kyral: I'm aware it's come up before
<zenrox> maby at some point ubuntu can have its own servers
<zenrox> but not at this point tho
<Amaranth> bad idea
<Amaranth> everyone is on freenode :P
<Amaranth> except those silly GNOME and Mozilla guys
<Kyral> yah thats what I said
<Kamion> I kind of like being able to use IRC even when the datacentre's being deluged with CD image downloads :P
<zenrox> just need to form the irc team and have the team discuss this and other issues that relate to freenode and ubuntu
<Kyral> I mean we could contribute a server to Freenode
<OgMaciel> elmo, would it be possible for you to manually change it for me?  Please?
<mdke> OgMaciel, a LP admin can do it I think
<elmo> mdke: no, they can't
<zenrox> Kyral:  yes but team needs to be formed first
<mdke> elmo, ah my bad
<sabdfl> mdke: no, the script that maps from lp to the alias file is in elmo's hands, and is down right now
<Kamion> ok, I'm kind of unclear as to what this team would be doing
<robotgeek> same here
<OgMaciel> I've been doing a lot of advocating and would like to be able to give them my Ubuntu email  ;(
<Amaranth> donating a server doesn't get you special privileges 
<sabdfl> when that script is sorted, then updating LP should update your email addy
<mdke> cool
<zenrox> Kamion:  manging the irc channels, disputes ,etc..
<Kamion> we have the code of conduct for basic rules and regulations already
<Kyral> sabdfl: ah okay I'll wait instead of bugging elmo :D
<zenrox> Kamion:  but that dont apply to every cahnnel on irc
<Kamion> zenrox: applies to #ubuntu*
<zenrox> that is ubuntu related
<sabdfl> OgMaciel, Kyral: no, please bug elmo to fix it for you today
<sabdfl> rather than waiting
<sabdfl> hey ian_brasil
<OgMaciel> sabdfl, sounds good to me  ;)
<keyes_> hello
<ian_brasil> sabdfl:ola
<sabdfl> has the drought cleared?
<Kamion> and given the number of channels, doesn't it scale better to have channels managing themselves where possible, rather than trying to have one team do it all?
<zenrox> Kamion: to a point but what about like spam some ubuntu channels alow it some dont
<zenrox> also too maby a good wiki page to list ruls for eatche channel
<robotgeek> zenrox: #ubuntuforums is the only channgel which don't comply, AFAIK
<ian_brasil> it has been raining here for a week solid and the rivers are rising
<zenrox> and a central command structure for channels
<Kamion> I think we're in danger of overengineering here ...
<OgMaciel> elmo, could you? ;)
<zenrox> robotgeek:  the 1 execption
<Kamion> IRC channels aren't a military structure :)
<zenrox> Kamion:  i know
<mdke> Kamion, +1
<Kyral> elmo: if you have time, could you set my redirect? Thanks
<keyes_> the DADVSI law is voted now in France, look rtsp://real-live.event.oleane.net/broadcast/live/encoder/assemblee/assnat.rm
<Kamion> and trying to turn them into one is generally a doomed enterprise
<Kyral> mdke: I think its more about making sure there is an active op in everychannel
<robotgeek> the COC applies in #ubuntu, and pretty much everyone sticks to it
<keyes_> if this is voted, this is the end of PLF, VLC, and lot of other open source softwares
<zenrox> but  you know what i mean if thare is a ban that some one wants to do in a channel thay can go to the irc team and ban and valadea it
<zenrox> remove bans etc...
<Kamion> I've got no objection to clearer rules, and strong channel ops
<Kamion> zenrox: per Freenode policy, that's the job of the channel opts
<Kamion> er, ops
<mdke> Kyral, i don't think we should decide that for all ubuntu channels
<zenrox> hence the team formation
<Kyral> zenrox: are you referring to my "situation" a couple weeks ago?
<mdke> Kyral, think about all the loco channels
<Mirno> Hi
<zenrox> Kyral:  yes
<lucas> keyes_: asking english speaking people to watch a french minister talking in french might not be a good idea :)
<seth_k|lappy> I think more than an IRCTeam, we need a central place to see who has ops on what channels, maybe apply for op privileges on a channel, etc.
<elmo> Kyral: have you even set email up in LP?
<seth_k|lappy> To see who is available to get rid of a problem user
<Kyral> elmo: you mean addys?
<Kamion> if this is a proposal coming from a wide cross-section of existing #ubuntu* channel ops to try to centralise how they do things, that's one thing
<zenrox> Kyral:  had bine baned in #Ubuntu 2 weeks ago and i could not get ahold of the person who di the ban
<keyes_> lucas:  sorry ;)
<Kamion> seth_k|lappy: chanserv tells you who has what access levels, doesn't it?
<Mirno> lucas, it's quite a bad timeing for a CC :) for french people
<zenrox> and if thare is an irc team we can ealy contect the team to get the ban lifted or refined
<Kamion> 21:09 -ChanServ(ChanServ@services.)- An access level of [1]  is required for [ACCESS LIST]  on #ubuntu
<seth_k|lappy> Kamion, you need access level 1 to use /msg chanserv access #channel list IIRC
<Kamion> hmm, maybe not
<seth_k|lappy> yeah, I was right
<Kamion> zenrox: similarly you can contact the ops
<ogra> Mirno, hmm, for germans its fine ... whats wrong with france ? 
<Kamion> I think that access restriction should be lifted so that people can see who the ops are
<zenrox> Kamion:  i did the person who wasnt around
<lucas> Mirno: quite good, it is 22:10 here
<zenrox> culd not remove the ban
<mdke> Kamion, +1
<seth_k|lappy> Kamion, I don't know if you can. I think that's a freenode thing
<ogra> Mirno, i prefer 9pm to 5am ;)
<Kamion> zenrox: an IRC team has no power without the cooperation of the channel operators
<robotgeek> Kamion: generally you can see who the ops are by doing !ops
<mdke> seth_k|lappy, sure you can
<Kamion> zenrox: therefore this proposal has to come from the channel operators
<seth_k|lappy> mdke, alright
<Kamion> robotgeek: in channels with bots that recognise !commands, sure
<zenrox> Kamion:  at least 1 person from can ops will be on the team
<zenrox> cachanel
<Kamion> zenrox: have you discussed this with them?
<zenrox> yes
<robotgeek> Kamion: yup, ubotu is good to have around
<Kamion> zenrox: are any of the relevant people here?
<zenrox> no as usual
<Mirno> ogra: it's RIGHT NOW, the debat/vote for DAVIDSI law ... Law that will forbid free software and reverse engeneering etc, in France.
<mdke> Mirno, #ubuntu-offtopic pls
<ogra> Mirno, ask them to postpone it until we're done ...
<Kamion> perhaps you can put together a wiki page with a list of the people involved here
<Amaranth> relevant people?
* keyes_ french politics are bastards
<Kamion> and the channels they're responsible for
<Amaranth> i'm in op in #ubuntu, does that count?
<zenrox> Amaranth:  yes
<Amaranth> err, an op
<zenrox> you count
<Amaranth> i think a team would be useless, actually
<Kamion> that way we can have some kind of an idea of who wants to form a team and cooperate in shared management of channels
<zenrox> Amaranth:  but want about in the long run
<Amaranth> there has only been one time i wished i had op in another channel
<Kyral> Amaranth: #ubuntuforums?
<Kamion> there are too many channels and operators for a proposal from just one or two people to make sense on its own, IMHO
<Amaranth> Kyral: that's not an official channel, really
<lucasvo> I think the bigger problem is that too many peopla are in the channels
<zenrox> Kamion:  agreed
<sabdfl> ok, can we ask zenrox & co to work on that? do you need any specific decision or support from the CC?
<zenrox> sabdfl:  i was told that i have to get approvil to get this set up and for the team but i will come back with a list off ppl and rally more support
<zenrox> off=of
<Amaranth> keyes_: dang, no subtitles :P
<mdke> zenrox, if you work on a spec, it will be much clearer
<zenrox> mdke:  yep i need help
<mdke> it's difficult to judge just like this
<keyes_> sorry
<sabdfl> i like the idea of an IRC team, so +1 from me for that, but you'll need to come back with a formal proposal, speling not important
<zenrox> lots of it
<Kyral> lol
<zenrox> hehehehe
<sabdfl> ok
<Kamion> zenrox: ok, generally we need to have a clear statement of goals and list of initial people interested before approving it, so that we know it's starting off on a good footing
<zenrox> ok
<Kamion> zenrox: but you can certainly start informal collaboration without having to get CC approval for that
<sabdfl> zenrox: thanks for taking the lead on this
* zenrox bows to the will
<keyes_> anarchy will beat ^^
<sabdfl> ok folks, any other business?
<Kamion> zenrox: we don't ban people from talking to each other and just doing useful stuff ;-)
<zenrox> Kamion:  i know that
<Kyral> zenrox: or disagreeing with Forum Admins ;P
<Bonzodog> Are people aware of the Ubuntu Document Storage Facility and what it does?
<Mirno> i'm sorry did I miss the "forum' topic ?
<mdke> Bonzodog, yes
<mdke> Mirno, yes
<Kamion> Mirno: apparently resolved, so not being discussed here
<Mirno> Kamion: ok
<jenda> Bonzodog: Maybe you should inform - I was surprised to see how many people weren't
<Bonzodog> I would just like to give a little briefing on it. I know you are aware mdke
<Kamion> Bonzodog: today was the first I'd heard of it
<Mirno> never heard of it
<Bonzodog> the website: http://doc.gwos.org
<sabdfl> Bonzodog: ?
<Bonzodog> It is a project run by KingBahamut
<Kamion> FWIW the web site isn't responding to me
<ogra> same here
<seth_k|lappy> really slow here
<Bonzodog> my launchpad page:
<kjcole> Kamion, ditto
<Mirno> Bonzodog: ah this ..
<Bonzodog> http://www.launchpad] 
<seth_k|lappy> the udsf contributes to dilution... why can't the wiki be used?
<jjesse> +1 seth_k|lappy 
<Bonzodog> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Bonzodog
<Bonzodog> is me
<mdke> seth_k|lappy, please don't start this, it's late already
<hybrid> duh
<Kyral> seth_k|lappy: KB has had some...disagreements with the Wiki staff it seems. Lets put it that way
<zenrox> so are we backly done here
* zenrox bows out to eat
<sabdfl> Bonzodog: ok, the site seems to be down now
<Bonzodog> we are part of team bahamut and we are working alongside the wiki and mdke to put together a second wiki that is more how-to's and basic documentation onusing ubuntu
<hno73> I can see why the forum community wants it's own wiki, but it would be cool if they had the same markup so we could move content between the wikis more easily
<Bonzodog> sabdfl: the site is under attack
<sabdfl> can i ask you to put a document together that describes what you are doing and put it on the agenda for the next CC meeting?
<seth_k|lappy> my thought is just that the "official" Ubuntu forums should be encouraging use of the *official* Ubuntu wiki, not some third-party project. My objection doesn't really relate to the doc itself.
<hno73> esp, now if they both become PD
<Bonzodog> and has been a few times
<thesaltydog> am I late? sorry..
<sabdfl> seth_k|lappy: yes, but there is room for other wiki's, for example the loco teams often create them
<Amaranth> thesaltydog: the meeting is pretty much over
<thesaltydog> ah..ok
<thesaltydog> I thought it was at 20:00 utc
* hno73 runs several moin wikis which don't seem to get attacked
<irvin> the docteam is pretty handicapped at the moment, we would welcome your contributions Bonzodog 
<Bonzodog> why ours is being attacked is a mystery
<sabdfl> Bonzodog: why would the site be attacked? if there is a controversy in the forums or irc, please ask both sides to state their case in the wiki and bring it to the next CC meeting
<sabdfl> thesaltydog: it was ;-)
<Riddell> Amaranth: I'm happy to make any responsible person an op in #kubuntu but I don't know how much you're in there
<hno73> In fact I've moved two wikis from media to moin due to spam infestation
<Bonzodog> Kingbahmut has more on it
<Kyral> sabdfl: there is a small....issue in that
<thesaltydog> hi sabdfl 
<mdke> hno73, :) go moin!
<Amaranth> Riddell: Basically never. But it seems like you're more likely to find an op in #ubuntu than #kubuntu
<Amaranth> Riddell: That was a while ago though.
* hno73 is a moin zelot :)
<seth_k|lappy> Amaranth, I'm in there quite a few hours a day, 8-10 usually
<robotgeek> Riddell: i'm there usually, now that i am using kubuntu :)
<Riddell> seth_k|lappy: that's why you're on op :)
<seth_k|lappy> sabdfl, of course there is room; I'm not saying that the udsf should be asked to stop or something. sabdfl, however, the official Ubuntu Forums encourage the use of this site instead of the official wiki. It was simply my opinion that an Ubuntu resource that was deemed "official" should encourage the use of official Ubuntu-sanctioned support documents.
<robotgeek> seth_k|lappy: +1
<Amaranth> seth_k|lappy: There seemed to be an issue with the docs getting moved to the official wiki.
<Amaranth> seth_k|lappy: Sounded like it was basically formatting issues.
<sabdfl> seth_k|lappy: agreed. we need to assess if the UDSF serves a real puspose, then that could become official for that purpose
<Bonzodog> I was hoping that the two wikis would be able to work together
<sabdfl> i know the docteam have wanted a more stable platform than a wiki
<mdke> Bonzodog, the markup is not very compatible
<sabdfl> what i don't like is the idea of two docteams :-)
<Bonzodog> as we are a resource of how-to's and basic documentation
<sabdfl> anyhow, this is a matter that requires some detailed background
<seth_k|lappy> Riddell, yeah, that was just in response to Amaranth saying that ops in #kubuntu were hard to find
<lucasvo> if you say the the 2nd wiki is for howto & doc, what is the official wiki for?
<Bonzodog> we use MediaWiki as our software
<mdke> lucasvo, they are both for that
<sabdfl> Bonzodog: please write up the rationale and vision of the UDSF, and get docteam and wiki team commentary alongside it
<Bonzodog> which powers wikipedia
<Bonzodog> I will do
<sabdfl> we can discuss it when we meet again
<Bonzodog> and we bring it to the next meeting
<sabdfl> cool
<irvin> that would be nice
<sabdfl> ok. kamion, elmo, friends, thank you!
<Kyral> indeed
<Mirno> sabdfl: hi, how's life ?
<Bonzodog> thank you
<mdke> night all, thanks
<sabdfl> Mirno: rocking along :-) you?
<robotgeek> sabdfl: later
<zenrox> thank u
<Kamion> great, thanks all
<sabdfl> night all
<zenrox> night sabdfl 
<Kyral> night sabdfl
<irvin> night sabdfl mdke 
<jjesse> night sabdfl 
<lucasvo> night 
<paulvg> goodnight
<Mirno> sabdfl: greate :=)
<irvin> it's early morning here
<kjcole> Sleep tight.  Don't let the Ubuntu bugs bite.
* irvin is still sleepy
<OgMaciel> hehe
<Kyral> I need to speak to Seveas
<zenrox> me too
<Kyral> there is one ghost from the Forums Issue not resolved
<ogra> irvin, enjoy the sunrise ;)
<paulvg> Kyral: his phone number can be found at his website http://www.kaarsemaker.net/
<irvin> ogra, it's been raining for days
<robotgeek> Kyral: it might be a good idea to detail the issue on the CC Agenda page
<irvin> i have yet to see a beautiful sunrise
<ogra> irvin, the sun doesnt come up if it rains in asia ? 
<ogra> ah 
<ogra> :)
<Kyral> robotgeek: its more of an issue between Seveas and Arnieboy
<robotgeek> Kyral: *sigh*
<robotgeek> i tht all was settled. 
<robotgeek> anyways, that's a personal issue?
<Kyral> yah....Arnieboy is mad about Seveas talking about him behind his back
<Kyral> he wants an apology
<seth_k|lappy> that's not for the CC to handle, imo
<Kyral> yah
<Kamion> that's *so* much a personal issue
<Kyral> but I still need to talk to Seveas :P
<paulvg> Kyral: i havent heard anything downright insulting from him on arnieboy
<paulvg> but automatix, yes
<Kyral> I never said it was a CC Issue ;P
* irvin gets a cup of coffee
<paulvg> goodnight all
<sivang> hmm, CC meeting.. I missed it..
<Kyral> goodnight
<Kyral> was that Linus?
<robotgeek> seth_k|lappy: hmm, who cares about arnieboy anyways
<Kamion> Kyral: no
<Kyral> Kamion: okay lol
<Kamion> unless he sets his realname to "Osvaldo La Rosa"
<Kyral> lol
<seth_k|lappy> robotgeek, that'd be my thought
<robotgeek> anyways, later all
<keyes> whats about arnieboy?
<keyes> arnieboy is a thief
<Kyral> keyes: just a fued between him and Seveas
<keyes> my little script is GPL and is "Automatix" rape the GPL
<seth_k|lappy> keyes++
<ajmitch> does this need to be argued out here, again?
<keyes> of course
<Mirno> keyes: trlala prout prout
<keyes> ubuntuforums.org censorships and arnieboy is a thief
<Mirno> keyes: what do you think I close PLF repositories ?
<keyes> Mirno:  what about DADVSI?
<keyes> i've closed mplayer (that irritates me)
<Mirno> keyes: there's a guy which is willing to take care of this, and sirestart (MOTU) is saying we are too permissiv to be recommended officially LOL
<keyes> fuck
<Mirno> keyes: well it's no voted yet .; we'll see we'll see ...
<Mirno> keyes: I'm wondering what to do if it'll be explicitly forbidden to provide libdvdcss2 and w32codecs ?
<Mirno> keyes: PLF Mandriva are resisting.
<keyes> hum
<Mirno> keyes: I think w32codecs is OK
<keyes> we can folow the mandriva politic, move to luxembourg or switzerland
<keyes> or close him
<Mirno> keyes: they gonna leave "interoperability" open
<keyes> hum
<Mirno> keyes: but libdvdcss2 is explicitly forbidden as DRM cracking
<keyes> libdvdcss is alsso an "interiperability" software
<keyes> hum
<Mirno> keyes: it's mostly a DRM cracking
<Mirno> Oh please people VOTE :  who likes PLF Ubuntu say "I like PLF" and people who don't "I don't like PLF"
<Kamion> please take this somewhere else
<Kamion> the logs of this channel are very useful, and the easier it is to look for stuff in them the better
<Mirno> Kamion: ok so you are asking me to go make people vote somewhere else where you all are not this is gonna be difficult ...
<Mirno> huhu
<Mirno> ok as you wish
<Mirno> I'll close PLF if you bother so much.
<keyes> Mirno:  we must declare Bthune independent, legalize matijuana and purpose PLF softwares
<Mirno> keyes: I don't support your sayings
<keyes> mari*
<keyes> :p
<keyes> I know
<akurashy> did i missed something good? i was taking a shower :(
<akurashy> anyone knows what was resolved today?
<jenda> akurashy: not much IMO
<jenda> *In my observation
<jenda> A can give you a log, if you wish, but it'll become public anyway :)
<jenda> *I
<akurashy> well i logged, but just wanted a resume
<akurashy> :)
<keyes> resume: Frenches politicals are bastards, PLF is good and anarchy will beat
<jenda> I was very busy, so I didn't notice any breakthroughs
<jenda> An IRC team was in question
<jenda> and so were the broadband-impaured
<akurashy> yea i readed something about irc team
<akurashy> but why would they need a irc team O_o
<Kamion> jenda: http://people.ubuntu.com/~fabbione/irclogs/ubuntu-meeting-current.html
<jenda> Kamion: no need - got me own, aku was asking
<akurashy> i got my logs too, just was asking for what was resolved
<akurashy> :)
<jenda> LOL: * torvalds has quit (Client Quit)
#ubuntu-meeting 2006-12-18
<stgraber> @schedule Zurich
<Ubugtu> Schedule for Europe/Zurich: 19 Dec 21:00: Technical Board | 20 Dec 21:00: Edubuntu | 21 Dec 22:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 27 Dec 13:00: Edubuntu | 28 Dec 09:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 02 Jan 21:00: Technical Board
<nixternal> @schedule chicago
<Ubugtu> Schedule for America/Chicago: 19 Dec 14:00: Technical Board | 20 Dec 14:00: Edubuntu | 21 Dec 15:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 27 Dec 06:00: Edubuntu | 28 Dec 02:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 02 Jan 14:00: Technical Board
<Rinchen> @schedule nixternal
<nixternal> you rang
* Rinchen laughs.
<nixternal> hehe
<nixternal> great, you have confused the hell out of the butt
<nixternal> i mean bot
<Rinchen> @schedule denver
<Ubugtu> Schedule for America/Denver: 19 Dec 13:00: Technical Board | 20 Dec 13:00: Edubuntu | 21 Dec 14:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 27 Dec 05:00: Edubuntu | 28 Dec 01:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 02 Jan 13:00: Technical Board
<nixternal> Rinchen: my time -1
<Rinchen> yeah. I've been traveling so much I'm almost lost when it comes to what timezone I'm in.
<Rinchen> I've been using UTC for everything as of late
<nixternal> i hear you there
#ubuntu-meeting 2006-12-19
<highvoltage> @schedule
<Ubugtu> Schedule for Etc/UTC: 19 Dec 20:00: Technical Board | 20 Dec 20:00: Edubuntu | 21 Dec 21:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 27 Dec 12:00: Edubuntu | 28 Dec 08:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 02 Jan 20:00: Technical Board
<Hobbsee> @schedule sydney
<Ubugtu> Schedule for Australia/Sydney: 20 Dec 07:00: Technical Board | 21 Dec 07:00: Edubuntu | 22 Dec 08:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 27 Dec 23:00: Edubuntu | 28 Dec 19:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 03 Jan 07:00: Technical Board
<zul> @schedule montreal
<Ubugtu> Schedule for America/Montreal: 19 Dec 15:00: Technical Board | 20 Dec 15:00: Edubuntu | 21 Dec 16:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 27 Dec 07:00: Edubuntu | 28 Dec 03:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 02 Jan 15:00: Technical Board
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:Ubugtu] : Current meeting: Technical Board | Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 20 Dec 20:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 21 Dec 21:00 UTC: Ubuntu Development Team | 27 Dec 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 28 Dec 08:00 UTC: Ubuntu Development Team | 02 Jan 20:00 UTC: Technical Board
<mjg59> Evening
<Keybuk> evening
<Keybuk> mdz's internet connection is a bit uppity today, so we'll get started without him
<Keybuk> I don't see any core-dev applications this week
<Keybuk> nor any dev applicants
<highvoltage> @schedule
<Ubugtu> Schedule for Etc/UTC: Current meeting: Technical Board | 20 Dec 20:00: Edubuntu | 21 Dec 21:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 27 Dec 12:00: Edubuntu | 28 Dec 08:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 02 Jan 20:00: Technical Board
<Keybuk> is there anyone here applying for either status?
<highvoltage> woops, I thought it was Wednesday
<tsmithe> woops, i thought this was -marketing...
<Keybuk> ok, I guess there are no candidates for today
<mjg59> Any other business?
<mjg59> We'll give you a few minutes to come up with something :)
<Keybuk> the Council Greyskull proposals will be discussed further before being proposed
<keescook> mdz just called me, asked me to ask Keybuk to run the meeting, but it looks like that's already happening.  :)
<Keybuk> dholbach deferred until January
<keescook> he's still got inet issues, and will be online as soon as he can be.
<Keybuk> keescook: yeah, I saw the "I've got net issues" mail, and saw he wasn't here
<keescook> okay, cool.  :)
<ajmitch> a short meeting then
<Amaranth> looks like we're done
<Keybuk> indeed
<Keybuk> I think we'll call that a meeting
<Keybuk> Happy Holidays, see you all in 2007
<mc44> cant imagine why colin would rather be on the T than the CC :p
<Amaranth> great work everyone, i only wish every meeting could go this well :)
<mc44> *TB
<highvoltage> happy hollidays, TB!
* ajmitch was only here for the motu council, but since that's deferred there's no point :)
<zul> ajmitch: you should read your email
<ajmitch> zul: I only just got that email
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:Ubugtu] : Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 20 Dec 20:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 21 Dec 21:00 UTC: Ubuntu Development Team | 27 Dec 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 28 Dec 08:00 UTC: Ubuntu Development Team | 02 Jan 20:00 UTC: Technical Board | 03 Jan 20:00 UTC: Edubuntu
#ubuntu-meeting 2006-12-20
<gnomefreak> @schedule new_york
<Ubugtu> Schedule for America/New_York: 20 Dec 15:00: Edubuntu | 21 Dec 16:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 27 Dec 07:00: Edubuntu | 28 Dec 03:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 02 Jan 15:00: Technical Board | 03 Jan 15:00: Edubuntu
<fabbione> @schedule Seattle
<fabbione> @schedule seattle
<fabbione> @schedule vancouver
<Ubugtu> Schedule for America/Vancouver: 20 Dec 12:00: Edubuntu | 21 Dec 13:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 27 Dec 04:00: Edubuntu | 28 Dec 00:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 02 Jan 12:00: Technical Board | 03 Jan 12:00: Edubuntu
<Seveas> @topic
<gnomefreak> still not there
<nixternal> @schedule chicago
<Ubugtu> Schedule for America/Chicago: 20 Dec 14:00: Edubuntu | 21 Dec 15:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 27 Dec 06:00: Edubuntu | 28 Dec 02:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 02 Jan 14:00: Technical Board | 03 Jan 14:00: Edubuntu
<apokryphos> hello everyone =)
<Seveas> hi
<jenda> Hello
<PriceChild> Hi
<nixternal> hi
<Hawkwind> Hello
<apokryphos> Though it hasn't gone through on the Fridge, or on the bot, there will be an Ubuntu IRC operators meeting now
<gnomefreak> ok we are still missing a bunch
<nixternal> argh
<Seveas> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IrcOperatorMeetingAgenda is the agenda
<Seveas> we are missing LJL, nalioth and ompaul
<nixternal> i just now seen the email, to late to add it to the fridge i guess..im sorry for not doing so
<gnomefreak> somerville
<apokryphos> we will do our best to end before the Edubuntu meeting, but if there are still issues around, we shall be ready to move to #ubuntu-ops
<apokryphos> nalioth has said he will be a few minutes late
<Hawkwind> LjL said he might be a bit late as he was heading home
<apokryphos> and is on his way home
<jenda> ompaul is online, but I'm not sure if he'd like to come.
<Seveas> he would, I've been talking to him
<Seveas> and I told that we moved
<apokryphos> good to hear
<gnomefreak> DBO: is here i think
<nixternal> jenda: tell him i am umphing gNewSense on my lappy...he will show up :)
<apokryphos> Seveas: do you want to chair or shall I?
<DBO> =)
<tonyyarusso> nixternal: hehe
<jenda> nixternal: 
<Seveas> apokryphos, I'll chair once everyone has arrived
<apokryphos> ok
<tonyyarusso> Gawd I should be packing...oh well, maybe it will be quick (yeah right)
<Seveas> tonyyarusso, anything specific on the agenda that you'd like to discuss before leaving?
<thoreauputic> as long as it's not as long as most CC meetings we should be OK ;-)
<Seveas> hehe
<tonyyarusso> Seveas: Only if this runs WAY long
<jenda> 5 hours apiece ;)
* tonyyarusso pulled an all-nighter to watch a CC mtg once...
<gnomefreak> as this is our first i would count on it being a while
<Seveas> Let's start with the easy bits first
<Seveas> Bots
<Seveas> Who added that to the agenda?
<apokryphos> I did, I'll speak a little about it now
<Seveas> ok
<nixternal> hrmm...where is the agenda?
<thoreauputic> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IrcOperatorMeetingAgenda
<gnomefreak> for future refference can we add our names to the agenda points you add
<nixternal> ty
<apokryphos> The ubuntu bots (ubotu and ubugtu) are both great, but on rare occassions there are problems. Seveas is the botmeister, but when he's not around I believe we need to have at least a couple other trusted people who have some admin privs to the bot, such as reconnect, death and the like
<apokryphos> I've spoken about this before and Seveas said that some people will be added. Any more info on that?
<Seveas> apokryphos, yes, I've been digging in the code to give access to specific parts
<Seveas> problem is that there is no @reconnect
<Seveas> and bringin bot back up after killing means needing shell access
<Seveas> which definitely is a no-go
<apokryphos> does your server support multiple shell users?
<Hawkwind> What about someone having a daily rsync/backup
<Seveas> sure, but I'm not giving away access
<nalioth> i am here
<apokryphos> hi nalioth
<tonyyarusso> gnomefreak: Just did so for mine
<gnomefreak> thats a security issue
<Seveas> Hawkwind, this is just about connection problems, not databases
<thoreauputic> hi nalioth
<Seveas> databses are backed up daily
<apokryphos> nalioth: we've only just started. We started with "bots" on the agenda https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IrcOperatorMeetingAgenda
<jenda> How about getting the bots a virtual machine? Is that a very bad idea?
<apokryphos> Seveas: is it a realistic possibility to get a @reconnect?
<apokryphos> it can be important
<Hawkwind> Seveas: I meant that if/when you aren't around and the bots are down someone can run an instance from their server or something
<gnomefreak> tonyyarusso: ty today wasnt really needed but more for future meetings
<tonyyarusso> gnomefreak: Thought I'd get in the habit ;)
<gnomefreak> :)
<Seveas> Hawkwind, ask ljl, he has a backup. He ended up creating /home/dennis because that part is hardcoded a lot
<Seveas> Hawkwind, for the factoid bot I can setup an easy-to-deploy backup on a different server
<Hawkwind> Ah ok.  I have a server that is up 99% of the time that I could do something similar for if need be
<apokryphos> a backup is good, but it's not ideal I think.
<tonyyarusso> Seveas: That would be helpful - LjL's backup was a week behind last time
<apokryphos> (in some situations); like when we just need the bot to reconnect
<apokryphos> last time we needed nalioth to do an admin kill on the bot which got him to reconnect
<Seveas> phone, sec
<jenda> apokryphos: if that works - it's not such a big problem.
<jenda> apokryphos: you can get freenode staff most of the time.
<apokryphos> it's really not the way things should be done
<jenda> I s'pose ;)
<DBO> what it really boils down to is Seveas would have to write a function to do that, Im sure hes capable but has he the time?
<jono> hi
<nixternal> hi
<jono> sorry folks, got caught up
<jono> I can't stay too long either
<tonyyarusso> Hey jono
<gnomefreak> hi jono
<jono> so whats the current situation?
<Seveas> back
<apokryphos> jono:  we've only just started. We started with "bots" on the agenda https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IrcOperatorMeetingAgenda
<thoreauputic> if jono can't stay long perhaps we should deal with the important issues while he's arond?
<Seveas> dog won't make christmas :(
<tonyyarusso> jono: just getting going.  http://www.novarata.net/wiki/index.php?title=Irc_council_meeting_thoughts and https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IrcOperatorMeetingAgenda
<gnomefreak> Seveas: im sorry
<apokryphos> dang :/
<jono> right
<jono> ok, carry on, I am going to lurk
<jono> :)
<Seveas> next point: bantracker logs
<apokryphos> what did we conclude?
<apokryphos> Seveas: is it a realistic possibility to get a @reconnect?
<gnomefreak> i oppose the public logs
<Seveas> apokryphos, file it as  a bug
<thoreauputic> gnomefreak: why?
<apokryphos> ok, cool
<Seveas> we don't need to decide whether it should be done, it should be
<gnomefreak> thoreauputic: if people know how they are banned they can advoid them
<apokryphos> I agree. Are there any disagreements here?
<tonyyarusso> Seveas: Ah yes, bantracker logs was me.
<thoreauputic> gnomefreak: hmm - I see
<apokryphos> gnomefreak: people who get banned quite a bit know how
<Seveas> I have no problem with public logs, given that they are already public via ubuntulog
<apokryphos> *know how to get banned, rather.
* nixternal notes a refresh is required - added info t the "any other issues" at the bottom, doesn't need to be discussed, read it, learn it, love it, live it :)
<Seveas> but I don't like to make commenting open for everyone
<gnomefreak> apokryphos: most of the exploiters do not so much of the "spammers"
<tonyyarusso> I don't have ANY idea how to accomplish this technically, and what privacy concerns may come up, but ubuntulog probably takes care of that.  The purpose is for people that come in saying "why was I banned?"
<gnomefreak> s/do not/do : not
<apokryphos> tonyyarusso: well, we do have a bantracker. Making it public wouldn't be hard
<apokryphos> but there'd be work on not allowing others to comment, perhaps
<Seveas> apokryphos, neh, few lines of code
<Seveas> that's not hard at all
<apokryphos> cool. So that's that?
<tonyyarusso> Agreed commenting and such should likely remain private.  I was referring strictly to easy access to logs.
<gnomefreak> what do others need to see it for?
<apokryphos> gnomefreak: transparency
<apokryphos> and also it's easier
<jenda> gnomefreak: the banned has to be able to see it.
<Hawkwind> gnomefreak: To show we aren't hiding anything from them maybe
<apokryphos> when people come in who've been banned 10 times, and we want to show them the logs, we can just point them there
<thoreauputic> gnomefreak: we should have nothing to hide, IMO
<Seveas> I agree
<jenda> +1
<tonyyarusso> In addition to be good for the bannee, it would be good in that others could "audit" our actions, which may have benefits.
<Hawkwind> I'm in agreeance too, bantracker info should be public, with the commenting disabled for the public
<nixternal> i think before any of it is made public, we need to refrain from the "omg what an idiot" remarks I have seen in the past - got to stay CoC with it, which I know gets difficult at times due to frustrations
<Seveas> should comments be visible to the public?
<nixternal> Seveas: as long as we keep them CoC safe, why not?
<gnomefreak> if your gonna make it public make it all public
<Seveas> fair enough
<jenda> Seveas: shouldn't comments only be made by the bannor?
<gnomefreak> nixternal: we dont know all the ops so we dont know how they play
<thoreauputic> yes - just show some restraint :)
<apokryphos> jenda: not necessarily, nope.
<Seveas> if anyone objects, please shout now
<jenda> ok
<Seveas> LjL, welcome
<gnomefreak> LjL: welcome
<LjL> hello
<Hawkwind> Hey there LjL
<nixternal> ehlo
<jenda> LjL- welcome ;)
<tonyyarusso> I am okay with my comments being public.  Not sure how others feel.
<DBO> Seveas, no issues here with public comments
<Hawkwind> No objections here on making it all public
<gnomefreak> Seveas: can you make it read only for public?
<Seveas> gnomefreak, that's the plan
<apokryphos> yeah. Next item?
<gnomefreak> k good
<Seveas> ok, nice
<Seveas> let's go from easy to hard
<nixternal> yay
<apokryphos> 8)
<Seveas> next is channel access policy
<jenda> Seveas: jono will have to leave.
<Seveas> jono, anything you are particularly interested in?
<gnomefreak> who added that and what is a lead?
<jenda> I wouldn't avoid the tuffstuff for too long.
<Seveas> gnomefreak, I added that
<nixternal> like a #ubuntu lead, #kubuntu lead, and so on?
<Seveas> basically, we need someone to be administrative contact for #kubuntu-* #xubuntu-* #ubuntuforums-*
<Hawkwind> nixternal: Yes
<Seveas> who we can poke for things
<apokryphos> Seveas: I didn't forget about that by the way, Riddell hasn't been around since.
<Seveas> currently that's rather ad-hoc
<nalioth> and who should be conversant with Ubuntu IRC guidelines and policies
<Seveas> Currently we have jenda for the forums side, somerville32 for xubuntu and noone for kubuntu, but apokryphos is attempting to clear that up
<gnomefreak> any suggestions on who or a vote or raise hand on what channel? im ok for any channel i need be
<Seveas> does anyone hae problems with these people?
<gnomefreak> not sure on one of them
<nixternal> Seveas: i can do kubuntu if no one steps up
<apokryphos> nixternal: I'm awaiting on Riddell's response for it atm
<Seveas> nixternal, apokryphos stepped up but hasn't been able to talk to riddell yet
<nalioth> nixternal: where is riddell?
<nixternal> also, with "leads" would it make since having more than 1 possibly 2 for shifts?
<apokryphos> he's been away for a few days
<DBO> AWOL
<gnomefreak> has somerville been an op long enough to know what to do incase hes needed being a contact?
<tonyyarusso> If there is any desire/need to have separate contacts for -offtopics, I'd be happy to take responsibility for #ubuntu-offtopic, but I don't know if there's any reason for that.
<Hawkwind> nixternal: Good point
<thoreauputic> I think the channel leads should be fairly experienced
<nixternal> Riddell is on a sabatical trying to get more aliens to use Kubuntu
<apokryphos> gnomefreak: could be a good point.
<Seveas> nixternal, 2 is unneccessary, except for during holidays -- it's not meant for urgnt things
<LjL> -1 for separate -offtopic contacts, +1 for *having* contacts of course
<nixternal> a contact is going to be nothing more than a liason to the irc ops correct?
<apokryphos> Seveas: was there any discussion on adding somerville before she was made #xubuntu-* ?
<Seveas> apokryphos, he was the first and only one who stepped up
<apokryphos> nixternal: to IRC ops, but they also have power over the channels with the access lists, and Freenode staff
* gnomefreak wasnt here
<Seveas> and he's very enthousiastic
<jenda> Seveas: the owner of the #ubuntuforums channel is zenwhen. I can act as contact to the operator team, though.
<nixternal> ya, i would say Riddell for #kubuntu then, since he is the Kubuntu daddy
<Hawkwind> Maybe one of us could do #Xubuntu for a little bit while somerville learns a bit more of the IRC/Op duties or something
<apokryphos> nixternal: right, but he's a very busy man who's not always around
<gnomefreak> nixternal: does he play enough in there or pay atttention in therE?
<nixternal> then look at Hobbsee and see if she is interested
<Seveas> nixternal, I'd rather have someone being more irc-minded instead of devel-minded in that position
<apokryphos> nixternal: another very busy person, which is what we said last time.
<thoreauputic> +1 for hobbsee
<nixternal> we are all busy
<Hawkwind> nixternal: Hobbsee has so many things going on now, I don't think she wants it
<DBO> thoreauputic, she might not even want the job
<tonyyarusso> Hawkwind: fwiw, somerville added me with 10 to #xubuntu even though it's not my regular stomping grounds, to help on occasion at least
<thoreauputic> right
<gnomefreak> nixternal: shes more of devel atm
<nixternal> gnomefreak: she is the communications leader for Kubuntu though
<tonyyarusso> Not that for Hobbsee "if she is interested" may be a big if atm
<tonyyarusso> *Note
<gnomefreak> nixternal: i understand that
<nixternal> the community manager that is
<Hawkwind> tonyyarusso: I was thinking maybe I should hang out there too a bit to help as well since somerville is still a bit new to the op stuff
<thoreauputic> DBO: perhaps this needs discussion on the mailing list + voting then?
<apokryphos> nixternal: but it's worth mentioning now if you'd object to me being the contact.
<nixternal> well then, for #kubuntu make it chanserv, he is the only one available 99.9% of the time :)
<DBO> thoreauputic, I highly doubt this one can be solved today
<apokryphos> I'm not sure you're getting this
<tonyyarusso> Hawkwind: May be nice.  I figure sit back as much as possible, but step in if needed.
<DBO> so thats probably a good idea
<nixternal> i could care less who the contact is truthfully
<thoreauputic> DBO: I agree
<thoreauputic> I suggest people could nominate themselves on the list, or be nominated and accept/refuse
<Seveas> ok, defered to mailinglist
<nixternal> Seveas: +1
<gnomefreak> make a site of responseiblities and see who is up for it?
<gnomefreak> and spell that right when you read it please
<apokryphos> sounds good
<Hawkwind> Hah
<tonyyarusso> Knowing the responsibilities would be very good
<Seveas> next up #ubuntu-ops
<apokryphos> ok, let me quickly discuss why things are the way they are currently
<Seveas> let's do a preliminary vote: +1/0/-1 on should it be "no lurkers"?
<Seveas> 0
<DBO> 0
<gnomefreak> Seveas: i say keep it so people hav e aplace to argue thier bans (argue for lack of better word)
<jenda> -1
<tonyyarusso> I would like it to be public, as least read-only.
<tonyyarusso> -1, allow lurkers
<jenda> perhaps +m?
<apokryphos> -1
<apokryphos> jenda: why?
<DBO> jenda, cant be +m
<gnomefreak> jenda: +m would defeat the purpose of the channel
<apokryphos> unless we had +z
<DBO> sometimes people need to talk to ops
<apokryphos> but then I don't see the point
<thoreauputic> +1 for public - but I suggest that interop discussion of bans be initially at least in /msg
<jenda> ok
<LjL> +1 DBO
<jenda> it was a reaction to tonyyarusso's read only.
<gnomefreak> thoreauputic: /msg 35 ops?
<Seveas> ok, no one really voting for keeping it private?
<apokryphos> doesn't seem so
<PriceChild> Am i allowed to vote?
<LjL> Seveas, i'd probably consider having *a* private channel
<Seveas> yes
<tonyyarusso> jenda: I was thinking in case something happens such that people are creating a disturbance.  would prefer totally open if lurkers can behave.
<thoreauputic> gnomefreak: no, I mean if you have problems with someone's ban, ping them first
<apokryphos> but, I should say one thing
<apokryphos> if it's public we have to ensure that things generally stay on topic
<nalioth> thoreauputic: no, because that can create a huge multi-layered PM net with more than a few ops talking to each other
<jenda> tonyyarusso: ok
<Seveas> apokryphos, +1
<gnomefreak> making the bantracker public would make the channel public or everyones points would be moot
<DBO> I would like to make one comment
<LjL> it has been mentioned that *another* channel could be created for "private" discussions. that could be discussed.
<thoreauputic> nalioth: hmm - good point
<nixternal> public, and get rid of the silly voices :)
<Seveas> DBO, please go ahead
<DBO> while I have no opinion on kicking them, asking them to leave is perfectly ok
<gnomefreak> we tried that most just left thier nicks there
<DBO> there really is no reason for lurkers, dont force them to leave, but asking nicely is harmless
<nixternal> if they want to lurk let them lurk, if you need to say something they shouldn't see/hear, you shouldn't be saying it all then
<Seveas> LjL, I don't agree, most of what we do here is making things more open
<thoreauputic> nixternal: i agree
<apokryphos> DBO: I'm not sure that doesn't lead to having a "no lurking policy"
<LjL> Seveas, depends. when i say "warning, there might be organized trolls around, judging from the fact that X is a proxy, and so is Y, and they're arguing, and a few more strange nicknames are joining" -- i don't want *them* to see this
<apokryphos> I say we just leave anyone to lurk for the time being
<gnomefreak> we had an issue with one person that lurked inthere
<jenda> Seveas: agreed, I don't think the ops really need a channel to discuss things in private... and if the need arises, we can always create one.
<thoreauputic> what exactly is the problem with people lurking? They might learn things, and who is to say which ones might eventually be ops?
<DBO> apokryphos, I can see how its a slippery slope
<tonyyarusso> DBO: I have doubts about your "no reason" assertion.  Reason's could include curiosity about how we operate, external auditing of our actions, observing for purposes of learning by folks interested in opping a channel of their own, etc.
<gnomefreak> he had a freind that was beiung banned and he gave them a work around
<LjL> Seveas: one thing is being open to *Ubuntu users*, one thing is being open to *deliberate trolls* who can take advantage of our internal FYI's
<jhaitas> sorry if you guys think i'm lurking
<DBO> apokryphos, I was not suggesting doing that to everyone, just people who seem to kinda forget they are in there
<thoreauputic> jhaitas: heh
<nixternal> lol
<Seveas> LjL, that's a rather good point
<jhaitas> i'm just being quiet because i don't want to disrupt what is going on
<kkathman> thoreauputic:  I agree, many newbies are afraid to speak, whent they dont know anything yet...and many choose to just watch and learn.
<Seveas> LjL, how about giving ubugtu a function to broadcast something to all ops?
<jhaitas> i'm trying to learn how you guys do business before i speak up
<apokryphos> what like?
<Hawkwind> Seveas: +1 on that idea
<LjL> Seveas: well, that would be similar to having a separate a channel - though perhaps less hassle. +1 for me
<Seveas> that has the advantage of it being in a pm and thus not too scrolling
<gnomefreak> ok that works use /msg ubugtu something <span all ops>?
<Hawkwind> Or even as a /notice maybe
<thoreauputic> I think we seem to be reaching some consensus that we should be as open as possible in evry way. Comments?
<DBO> Hawkwind, notice would be hard to find on scrollback
<LjL> implementation details IMHO
<Seveas> last thing: logging
<Seveas> should the channel be publicly logged?
<PriceChild> I remember being in -ops a while ago with some question about ubotu, and after the question I was promptly kicked out, not a clue what I had done and felt a bit scared.
<apokryphos> I think it should be logged
<nixternal> NOTE:  Our number one goal is Ubuntu - advocate it, support it, and rock it - telling someone to leave because they are in a "skullz" or "private-society" channel defeats our common goals
<tonyyarusso> thoreauputic: +1 from me.  Unless someone gives some concrete, specific thing that must not be, I personally want things public.
<Hawkwind> DBO: Yeah maybe for some.  I have it set to show in active channel when I'm away and the tab I leave it on is not an active tab with chat
<gnomefreak> Seveas: well everything else is public make it publicc
<jenda> Seveas: once it's open, yes.
<LjL> +0 for me, but -1 if the logs are made available in real time
<apokryphos> -1,0,+1 on public logging?
<apokryphos> +1
<LjL> make them available with some time difference at least
<Seveas> LjL, ubuntulog isn't real time
<gnomefreak> you cant make one thing public and not hte rest
<LjL> that's ok then
<Seveas> +1 on logging from me
<thoreauputic> I have no issues with public logs +1
<LjL> ok, +1
<Hawkwind> +1 on logging
<DBO> +1
<jenda> +1
<nixternal> +1 on everything
<apokryphos> alright, sorted.
<tonyyarusso> LjL: What's the realtime concern?
<gnomefreak> ok Seveas looks like logging
<nixternal> +1x10-3+17^5
<Seveas> ok, now we are at the hard part
<tonyyarusso> lol
* jenda kicks nixternal 
<nalioth> most store managers do not let their customers hang out in their offices, even though the stores are "open to the public"
<Seveas> operator policy
<LjL> tonyyarusso: same as above - trolls seeing stuff in too-real-time. though the Ubugtu implementation Seveas proposed would probably get around that.
<gnomefreak> i agree with nalioth on that
<LjL> +1 nalioth
<mc44> nalioth: almost all of ubuntu is open to the public
<tonyyarusso> LjL: *nod*
<Seveas> nalioth, but ubuntu as a community is more open than a store
<apokryphos> nalioth: I think we should keep it open though until we have a reason to believe that it shouldn't be
<Seveas> all processes are public
<jenda> nalioth: imprecise analogies are dangerous...
<gnomefreak> Seveas: can we set up a signing of the guidelines? or something of the sort
<Seveas> jenda, +1
<apokryphos> unless there's a direct threat from keeping it open, it should be.
<tonyyarusso> nalioth: Although, those that are open in operations as well as sales floor in a sense often garner respect.
<Seveas> gnomefreak, that's a good plan
<jenda> the store keeper usually doesn't recruit staff from good customers.
<PriceChild> nalioth: doesn't mean you can't have private discussions in pm or other  channels etc.
<mc44> discussions in private should only be when absolutely necessary
<nixternal> Ubuntu isn't a store - it is a garage sale, wherever there is merchandise you are free to wonder :)
<thoreauputic> let's not get sidetracked with the analogy :)
<LjL> one thing - we keep mentioning "PM". but PM can have the disadvantage that things are only shared between *two* people, the other people "suddenly" discovering about something later... and we end up like we're now.
<gnomefreak> Seveas: also i think making it a bit less general would be a good idea since people seem to interpret things differnetly
<apokryphos> we know the bad arguments they can create, such as Plato's :P
<LjL> i'd like a *multi-way* medium that can be used a bit privately. Ubugtu sounds ok
<jhaitas> would y'all prefer it if i leave?
<gnomefreak> jhaitas: what are you going on about?
<jenda> apokryphos: I love his analogies :)
<tonyyarusso> LjL: Point - I think it has it's place for minor points (like something I said to sommerville yesterday that should have been pm, but oh well), but should be carefully used.
<nixternal> it needs to be open, a private channel/society leads to eliteism and you cant' say that it doesn't...i have seen it happen with many-a-distro...if there is something we need to say that shouldn't be heard by all there is a thing called /notice or /msg, but at the same time, we shouldn't be keeping secrets
<PriceChild> jhaitas, not all the 90 people here are part of the meeting, don't worry bout it. This is a public meeting
<thoreauputic> if we back each other up and keep the CoC in mind, we are less likely to have major issues IMO
<jenda> jhaitas: we're not even talking about this channel :)
<apokryphos> jenda: I like them too; problem is when he thinks they back up his argument :P
<mc44> why not an#ubuntu-ops-private which is used only when necessary and any discussion made availiable after the fact when it is no longer sensitive
<jenda> 
<jhaitas> ok
<gnomefreak> thoreauputic: remember we just added 30 ops to our list?
<apokryphos> I think Ubugtu OP actions are *possibly* a case where privacy is required
<gnomefreak> that most of us dont know
<LjL> ok, so the channel as open as possible, but a separate place (like Ubuntu commands) to use *sparingly* for "service messages". does that sound ok?
<thoreauputic> gnomefreak: and?
<jhaitas> i'm relatively new to the ubuntu community...
<Seveas> LjL, yup
<gnomefreak> thoreauputic: how do we prevent the ops are with ops
<tonyyarusso> apokryphos: maybe
<LjL> s/Ubuntu/Ubugtu/
<nixternal> if you do decide on a private channel, remove the the ubuntu from the channel name
<gnomefreak> if we dont know the other ops
<Seveas> nixternal, council greyskull is already taken ;)
<nixternal> haha
<gnomefreak> motu grabbed that
<Hawkwind> The access list in -ops should contain all known ops of every official Ubuntu-* channel, even if they don't hang out there regularly
<thoreauputic> gnomefreak: I don't follow - all ops are supposed to keep the CoC
<apokryphos> course
<gnomefreak> Hawkwind: they are
<Hawkwind> Or we should have a wiki page that lists every op
<jenda> I will have to go soon.
<mc44> *the Leadership CoC, no?
<tonyyarusso> Hawkwind: LP / ubuntu-irc?
<Seveas> Hawkwind, we have, but it's outdated
<gnomefreak> thoreauputic: i cant honestly say joey will obey the coc even if he signed it
<thoreauputic> mc44: yes
<Seveas> Hawkwind, feel free to fix ;)
<nalioth> jhaitas: this is #ubuntu-meeting anyone is welcome
<jenda> Seveas: I believe this idea is worth a try: "* If someone appeals in #ubuntu-ops, the banning op is not allowed to act, only to defend his actions"
<Hawkwind> Seveas: Hah.  If I knew all the ops, I'd do it.  Maybe we can get together and get that list
* jenda runs off.
<nixternal> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IRCOperators
<nixternal> update that ^^
<highvoltage> which meeting is currently running?
<gnomefreak> highvoltage: ops meeting
<thoreauputic> highvoltage: ops
<apokryphos> highvoltage: Ubuntu IRC op meeting
<nixternal> irc bofh's
<Seveas> jenda, ack
<thoreauputic> nixternal: heh
<tonyyarusso> I second jenda's point.  In fact, I would _prefer_ to not be the reviewer for bans I had set originally.
<jenda> tonyyarusso: that's Seveas' point.
<DBO> +1 jenda
<jenda> I quoted.
<LjL> i don't know. i'd give this like a 30-day trial and then a vote
<tonyyarusso> jenda: Ah
<tonyyarusso> Then +1 Seveas
<LjL> i'd have to see how it works out
<thoreauputic> I think jenda's idea is worth a try
<thoreauputic> +1
* highvoltage didn't realise there was an ops-meeting
<gnomefreak> +1
<jenda> thoreauputic: Seveas' idea, I quoted :)
<gnomefreak> highvoltage: it never went through from fridge ml
<Seveas> LjL, this is all about trying new things, nothing is set in stone until it is succesfull
* jenda off
<thoreauputic> ah OK :)
<LjL> *shrug* +1 then
<Hawkwind> +1 as well
<apokryphos> people who know about -ops are generally regulars anyway
<tonyyarusso> true
<Hawkwind> apokryphos: Very true
<Seveas> I want to run this by you as well: should we forbid "op wars/fun kicking"?
<LjL> right, and one thing
<Seveas> -infinity from me
<Hawkwind> I think it should be forbidden
<gnomefreak> in public for no reason -1
<LjL> if -ops is a place where people come to appeal bans -- how do they *get to know* about it?
<DBO> -1
<Hawkwind> Atleast in public channels
<tonyyarusso> apokryphos: Although, there is some advantage to making it better known, as it would be good for people to know the recourse available.
<Seveas> LjL, it should be advertised more
<LjL> forbid them in the main channels, allow them in -offtopic channels
<apokryphos> -s might be a start :P
<gnomefreak> no
<Hawkwind> LjL: -1 on that
<DBO> LjL, that has been the unspoken rule on it thus far
<gnomefreak> -offtopics needs to be forbidden as well
<Seveas> +1 on ljls plan
<tonyyarusso> I would like to say forbid in all Ubuntu channels, on the basis of complaints voiced even in #ubuntu-offtopic.
<LjL> DBO: you got me :)
<Hawkwind> It sets a bad example IMO
<gnomefreak> as people have complained about it many times
<Seveas> we should not forget to have fun
<gnomefreak> last CC meeting it was brought up off topic for meeting
<nalioth> but not everybody can have 'that' kind of fun
<Hawkwind> It leads to a user feeling he/she can join in on the fun, and will lead to comments or something similar to what we had with bigfuzzyjesus
<gnomefreak> Seveas: agreed keeps it in -ops?
<thoreauputic> just put it in the /topic for offtopic, humorously
<nixternal> man, i was in the wrong channel wondering why noone was talking
<thoreauputic> " Ops may be kicking each other, pay no attention"
<apokryphos> heh
<Seveas> Hawkwind, bfj was inappropriate, not kicking
<LjL> ...
<LjL> +1
<Seveas> thoreauputic, +2
<tonyyarusso> I am personally somewhat uncomfortable with the practice (although I have participated on occasion), find it unprofessional and tarnishing our image to those less "in the know" who don't underdstand that it's just a form of fun, and in acknowledgement of the wishes of those who have lodged complaints.
<DBO> tonyyarusso, lets keep in mind the ops are volunteers
<apokryphos> there is the danger of overdoing things
<tonyyarusso> Agreed we should have fun, but probably not in public channels.  If we do need to make a separate private channel that does not have Ubuntu in the name, I would be fine for it there.
<nixternal> tonyyarusso: i believe that also falls under my "stop flexing your chest" clause, because in all reality that's all you are doing
<gnomefreak> who reads tpics?
<thoreauputic> tonyyarusso: in -offtopic I think it's harmless ( with a topic addition)
<LjL> look, when people logged complains about that *to me*, they mainly said it was "unrequired scrolling". people also complained about the Planet Ubuntu notices from Ubugtu for the same reason.
<Hawkwind> Seveas: True.  But it's *possible* he wouldn't have said that if the kicks/bans hadn't happened.  Not saying it wouldn't have, but it is something we have to consider
<LjL> should we care about that?
<tonyyarusso> DBO: True, although in my other volunteer organizations a level of professionalism is still a must.
<thoreauputic> nixternal: no, it's just harmless fooling around :)
* nixternal tossing at rotten fish or trying to @lart Seveas is much better then trying to k/b him for a laugh
<Seveas> LjL, I think no
<nixternal> harmless and fooling around isn't for Ubuntu
<mc44> Its also not just ops kicking ops though
<Seveas> people will always find things to complain about
<DBO> tonyyarusso, and for everything but peewees playhous (-offtopic) we maintain it
<apokryphos> Shall we put it to a vote?
* LjL looks warily at mc44
* mc44 hugs LjL 
<thoreauputic> nixternal: what is -offtopic for if not fun?
<tonyyarusso> I love having @lart as an alternative, btw.
<Seveas> thoreauputic, exactly
<gnomefreak> i say make a channel for it or use -ops
<nixternal> especially if others are around, if you do it in ops where all the ops are, then so be it, but in the public-public channels even offtopic, isn't right
<Seveas> tonyyarusso, if funkicks go, lart should go as well
<apokryphos> -1,0,+1 on op actions in -offtopic
<tonyyarusso> Seveas: You think so?
<Seveas> nixternal, some people like the unexplainable kicks in offtopic
<nixternal> funkicks == flexing your chest (and most geeks don't have chests)
<thoreauputic> people, keep a sense  of humour
<tonyyarusso> Lart is nice in that all users can use lart equally.
<nixternal> Seveas: thats why i don't hang out in offtopic anymore
<gnomefreak> 80% or more of people dont read the topic anyway
<tonyyarusso> At the very least, I would like to rule out funkicking regular users, even if it persists between ops.
<LjL> tonyyarusso: errrwell...
<DBO> tonyyarusso, except seveas, you cant lart seveas =P
<gnomefreak> putting it in topic is usless
<tonyyarusso> DBO: Good point ;)
<thoreauputic> tonyyarusso: that I agree with
* Seveas whistles innocently
<DBO> tonyyarusso, I agree, no kicking regular users for fun
<mc44> Not that I mind being kicked :)
<DBO> even if they are long time regulars and are in on the fun
* mode/#ubuntu-meeting [+o Seveas]  by ChanServ
* Seveas kicks mc44
* mode/#ubuntu-meeting [-o Seveas]  by ChanServ
<thoreauputic> heheh
* mc44 tickles Seveas 
<tonyyarusso> Seveas: Honestly, they do amuse me as well.  But, if others have a problem with it, I consider the gain:loss ratio in favor of dropping it.
<Seveas> see, having fun is good...
<gnomefreak> how many new users join an -offtopic channel and it would look very bad
<mc44> All I will say, is that if someone brings it up before the CC, I fear you will be overrulled
<tonyyarusso> That's part of my worry.
<tonyyarusso> I think we are beginning to draw a new crowd to Ubuntu that may not understand our humor.
<gnomefreak> maybe keep it of #offtopic!offtopic? or whevber that channel is
<Hawkwind> mc44: Not with Seveas on CC
<mc44> Hawkwind: he has no vote :)
<nixternal> my problem with the funkicking/flexing your chest is it can cause people to get that inferiority complex and feel belittled, thats why i don't like it
<thoreauputic> gnomefreak: everyone was new once - we all had to get used to stuff
<tonyyarusso> Hawkwind: He is no longer
<Seveas> Hawkwind, I'm not on the CC, nor will I be there anytime soon
<Seveas> tonyyarusso, never been ;)
<Hawkwind> Ah, I thought you were
<PriceChild> Secretary isn't it?
<Hawkwind> mc44: Ok, you win
<tonyyarusso> Seveas: Ah, nvm
<Hawkwind> Hah
<nixternal> users start thinking they aren't good enough because they can't get the +o, and next thing you know they join #gentoo and become ubuntu trolls
<gnomefreak> thoreauputic: i agree but there are many users now in -offtopic that dont like it but are scared to say something about it
<Seveas> anyway, this is going nowhere -- can we please all write our arguments on the wikipage and reisit in a few days?
<apokryphos> I actually thought this was going to be the shorted topic 8)
<tonyyarusso> mc44: You likely make a good point.  High ups likely would not approve.
<Seveas> revisit*
<thoreauputic> *sigh*
<nixternal> Seveas: +1
<tonyyarusso> +1 on revisiting
<apokryphos> *shortest
<LjL> +1, revisit
<DBO> 0
<mc44> I propose an ##ubuntu-offCoCic for all your out of Code of Conduct fun :p
<gnomefreak> this is something jono should be a part of as the community leader
<Seveas> please all write your arguments on the agenda page, but respect when the page is locked because someone is also editing
<apokryphos> e^0
<thoreauputic> the whole thing is now moot anyway, because we have no consensus on it - thus it threatens to be divisive
<tonyyarusso> gnomefreak: Agreed.  Jono input now would be good.
<Seveas> thoreauputic, that's why I want people to write things down :)
<gnomefreak> i havetn seen any compelling argument for its ok ion public other than have fun
<thoreauputic> Seveas: yes, OK :)
<Seveas> going to rush to the next topic now, want to make this < 2 hours
<Seveas> Next up: kick/ban/abuse/appeal policy
<thoreauputic> gnomefreak: fun is a *very* compelling argument - let's not become puritans :))
<Seveas> we have operator guidelines
<Seveas> but they're a bit vague at some points, causing arguments between ops
<gnomefreak> Seveas: can we make them less general/sign them is my only thoughts ont hat
<Seveas> -1 on signing but +1 on less general
<tonyyarusso> +1 on that
<tonyyarusso> Why not signing?
* PriceChild hasn't even read operator guidelines yet...
<DBO> PriceChild, they are pretty self evident really
<DBO> just the finer points we are getting into
<PriceChild> DBO, hope so :)
<thoreauputic> DBO: I think it's called common sense ;)
<tonyyarusso> So far, "don't be an idiot", hence "less general".
<nixternal> well, most of the issues I have seen in the main channels require KLines anyways. But for those instances where an OP is needed, Strike 1 A Verbal/Written Warning, Strike 2 - Quiet Time ($time), Strike 3 - Goodbye
<apokryphos> tha'ts way too vague
<apokryphos> (to apply to all actions in a channel)
<LjL> i'm very, very wary of guidelines going too much into the specifics. they're guidelines after all. they *should*, imho, set a few categories and general principles, but not "if user A does X, do action Y; if ..."
<nixternal> because someone pastes 5 lines into the channel instead of using !paste doesn't require a ban
<apokryphos> LjL: right
<PriceChild> could i have a link please? :$
<LjL> !guidelines
<LjL> no
<Seveas> LjL, a list of examples would be a good thing to have though
<nixternal> apokryphos: which actions would that be to vague for?
<DBO> nixternal, yes but if the paste continues a remove (with a message to rejoin or an invite back) or a simple temp mute is ok
<tonyyarusso> Agreed on catagories.  Like, "hardspam", lightspam, offtopic, harassment, etc.  Could probably have a half dozen or so good ones.
<apokryphos> nixternal: again, that's not clear. It depends on how they've done it
<LjL> Seveas: i'm not sure. maybe, but it scares me a little tbh.
<PriceChild> LjL, got it in -ops thanks
<apokryphos> nixternal: some people flood quite clearly for attention. A +q or a /kick stops the flood.
<nixternal> apokryphos: that is at the discression of the OP, but I think he/she should have very strong proof it was for attention
<LjL> look in #ubuntu... should that be a ban? :)
<Hawkwind> Shouldn't we really +q someone before we ever issue a kick/ban for atleast things like repeating/flooding ?
<apokryphos> nixternal: again, this is hazy. You simply can't group all actions into a process like that
<nalioth> LjL: you did it right
<Hawkwind> An instant first time offense ban is sometimes a bit harsh to new users
<gnomefreak> LjL: yes
<LjL> gnomefreak, nalioth: so? :)
<Seveas> Hawkwind, +1
<nixternal> Fuck you mum doesn't warrant a kick or a ban, but maybe a nice warning about !language
<apokryphos> that's not true
<Seveas> nixternal, heh, reading #ubuntu :)
<apokryphos> I have no objection to a ban or a remove there
<Seveas> I'd say kick though
<apokryphos> especially if it's abusive
<gnomefreak> LjL: thats just another point on how (less vauge) the rules need to be
<Hawkwind> nixternal: I agree.  If it's repeated, then greater action needs to happen
<nixternal> i see so many of us, develoeprs and everyone else saying the same if not worse most of the time...if you kick him, kick them
<tonyyarusso> Hawkwind: Depends on the offense.  +1 that we give too many for minor things.
<apokryphos> words only have demonstrable meaning in their context
<gnomefreak> nixternal: depends is it a personal attack?
<DBO> not in this case
<LjL> i say it depends on the user. my own idea is that some things don't *need* to be in the CoC or guidelines to be understood as "bad" by *anyone*.
<nixternal> so the next time a core dev goes off with the f-bomb, you better give him/her the same exact treatment
<thoreauputic> people, give ops a bit of discretion in their decisions - we aren't robots
<Hawkwind> Even if someone tells me *f you* to me personally, I don't like to instantly ban them
<gnomefreak> did he spam it?
<apokryphos> thoreauputic: +1
<Seveas> <thoreauputic> people, give ops a bit of discretion in their decisions - we aren't robots
<Seveas> +1
<apokryphos> there are many cases where it's quite simply "use judgement"
<gnomefreak> +1
<DBO> +
<PriceChild> +1 thoreauputic
<thoreauputic> exaactly apokryphos
<LjL> +1
<apokryphos> anyone on the op team should be trusted to make decisions. They won't be infallible, but they need some trust.
<nixternal> Fuck!
<thoreauputic> +1
* nixternal waits for LjL to kick him
<mc44> Its more important you have a fair and consistent appealks procedure, no?
* apokryphos removes nixternal
<nalioth> nixternal: ?
<gnomefreak> nalioth: hes playing during a meeting
<gnomefreak> lol
<nixternal> i just said it, and didn't get kicked, why?
<LjL> but, one thing i want to put forward is: we should, generally speaking, behave differently with people who misbehave because they *can't care less*, compared to people who *might* be doing it innocently
<DBO> nixternal, context
<Seveas> nixternal, because noone but me has access here and I was distracted for a minute
<LjL> clearly, guessing this is at the discretion of the op
<Hawkwind> nixternal: Kicking of ops in a public channel isn't allowed :-)
<nixternal> haha Seveas
<apokryphos> nixternal: words only have demonstrable meaning given their context
<LjL> i can't kick in here anyway
<gnomefreak> Hawkwind: i would add unless needed
<nixternal> Hawkwind: who cares who they are, if they do the same thing that Aristotle did, then they better get kicked as well
<gnomefreak> LjL: noone can but Seveas
<gnomefreak> maybe nalioth
<Hawkwind> nixternal: Hah
<nixternal> it is hypocritical to kick him, but not Seveas, or me, or someother community member
<nixternal> who drops an f-bomb
<LjL> if i believe, from what i can see of what an user does, that they really *don't care* about decency, at all, i don't think 10 prior warnings are deserved
<nixternal> or decides to say f your mum
<apokryphos> nixternal: I'm not sure you've understood the thing everyone is saying here. Context, context.
<apokryphos> it makes a big difference
<DBO> nixternal, if that were the case we could simply program ubotu to do all the work and retire to bed early
<nixternal> DBO: sounds like a plan
<gnomefreak> ok how many warning is good before kick or kb?
<LjL> nixternal: that's a good point. what about explicitly allowing ops to quiet (kicking or banning wouldn't make much sense) other ops *seriously*, when they misbehave themselves?
<tonyyarusso> Agreed that we should try to be more consistent in our actions however, in general.  Many times we have people in -ops saying "but so and so was ____ and didn't get kicked!"
<apokryphos> gnomefreak: it completely depends on the action. There's no mechanical process for any ban
<Hawkwind> gnomefreak: Totally depends on the circumstances and the op personally
<apokryphos> despite what anyone might think
<Seveas> DBO, that's exactly why I hae so many onjections against "bots as ops"
<DBO> LjL, we had an op go rampant not longo ago I believe
<nixternal> that got got a warning and a kick at the same time
<nixternal> head>desk
<LjL> gnomefreak: i say, in general, 1) a verbal warning  2) a remove  3) a ban -- but it doesn't *always* have to follow this entire route IMHO
<Seveas> LjL, +1 on quieting ops
<apokryphos> There's nothing wrong with bots as ops presuming they don't get innocents
<Seveas> LjL, although chanserv.py auto-unmutes
<tonyyarusso> nixternal: I fully intended to remove if his next line was similar, however.
<LjL> DBO, Seveas: even without taking extreme cases, i'm in favor of "friendly" mutes. if you're going a bit out with adrenalin, i should just mute you, and you shouldn't take that badly - i know it sounds weird, but i don't think it's a terrible idea
<gnomefreak> bot = op + bugs
<nixternal> tonyyarusso: +1
<gnomefreak> you are gonna have bugs in it
<Seveas> LjL, I fully agree
<nixternal> but he never got that chance
<PriceChild> On the forums, we can issue custom infractions, we can get them moderated, temp/permanently banned on our own (without input from the Admins.) Its a pretty close comparison. Any CoC or guideline violation and I don't think that any staff would ever challenge anothers decision on any temporary action. I think we should all be trusting other ops on everything up to bans
<thoreauputic> we all have to consider things on a case by case basis - looking for a formula is not useful. Yake responsibility for your decisions
<apokryphos> gnomefreak: not necessarily
<LjL> also, users would find that nice, to see that ops aren't "above judgement"
<apokryphos> thoreauputic: right
<DBO> LjL, Im ok with getting muted when I get wild (like that one time 10 years ago, my hear rate got above 40)
<PriceChild> s/up to bans/up to permenant bans/
<nixternal> instead, we played judge and jury and executed a texan style speedy trial and hung his ass all in one fell swoop
<gnomefreak> apokryphos: oh im just commenting on someone else who said bots as ops
<LjL> DBO: heh
<Seveas> DBO, zombie
<DBO> nixternal, we kinda have to
<mc44> nixternal: Its more important you have a fair and consistent and impartial appeals procedure, no?
* PriceChild took way too long to type that...
<DBO> nixternal, otherwise people sitting there spamming for russian brides who want your donger get to sit around for a bit
<LjL> mc44: yes - and buy the moon, too :)
<mc44> LjL: a pony for you, sir?
* gnomefreak thought we handled this already?
<nixternal> DBO: come on man, those get the boot right away
<DBO> nixternal, right, thats what Im saying, sometimes you just gotta hang the user
<Seveas> Something else to think about: should operators back each other up in the -ops channel, even when they disagree a bit, and discuss their disagreements in privat?
<LjL> mc44, seriously, a decent appeals procedure may help sometimes, but i think in general it would just tend to make things stagnate -- like, i start to be afraid of kicking because of the huge "paperwork" that results
<nixternal> what aristotle did wasn't a russian mail order bride service, she dropped an f-bomb
<thoreauputic> Look, the main reason I'm here today, for what it's worth, is to say * back each other up * and don't fight over others' decisions
<nixternal> he/she who cares
<Seveas> thoreauputic, I agree
<tonyyarusso> Seveas: I'd say don't say anything if you disagree - otherwise you're just lying.
<DBO> nixternal, normally I would have !ohmy | Aristotle that sucker
<nixternal> Seveas: i have no problem backing an operator up no matter where its at, as long as i feel they were right, if they weren't, i will publically call it
<DBO> but I was ok with a remove as well
<gnomefreak> Seveas: op vs op needs not to be done at all but if its going to be it should go to the council in private
<PriceChild> +1 thoreauputic
<thoreauputic> If we want to be a team, then lets work as one
<Seveas> tonyyarusso, but publicly arguing when someone appeals a ban is not something that makes us look consistent
<apokryphos> right. we need some solidarity in our team
<Seveas> I want to avoid that
<DBO> nixternal, ops often have just a few seconds to try to make a decision
<nixternal> Seveas: don't argue, vote +1, or 0
<gnomefreak> the ops council is there for this reason not just users
<nixternal> no need to state your peace until after the backup vote is complete
<DBO> nixternal, sometimes the wrong one will be made, we have to learn to accept that will happen sometimes
<gnomefreak> nixternal: cant prevent arguing
<tonyyarusso> Seveas: Correct.  Don't argue.  But I don't want to be expected to say "Billybob is right" if I don't think that's true.  I _would_ however, be happy to keep my mouth shut and take it in private later.
<LjL> Seveas: right -- myself, i think "op vs op" can stay, because i don't think it's possible to really avoid that forever. but *not in the face of users*
<LjL> which doesn't mean "hide that from users". just, users don't even want to see that, i think
<Seveas> tonyyarusso, that's more reasonable than what I said :)
<LjL> gnomefreak: do you think i should *always* go and "tell seveas" whenever you do something i don't agree with?
<thoreauputic> LjL: if we strongly disagree, we can *ask* about a decision - i don't think that needs to be in public though
<LjL> can't we try discussing it informally first?
<mc44> Its about being fair, its about being open, its about being *ubuntu*, not blaming ops if afterwards a concil decides on reflection to remove a ban
<gnomefreak> if the council is gonna handle disputes between ops and users it should be ther efor ops vs ops also
<Hawkwind> I think now that we have made the -ops channel completely public and have made it clear it's a place for users to appeal a ban and that the banning op can only defend his actions, the fighting we had over this will come to an instant stop
<Seveas> Hawkwind, I hope so
<tonyyarusso> LjL: I know I much prefer chatting with the other person first at least
<LjL> thoreauputic: i don't think it should be in public, either. but then i don't think we should ask for a decision *whenever* we have a conflict
<gnomefreak> LjL: you try talkking to person first as guideliness states
<gnomefreak> this is above that point
<DBO> brb
<LjL> i mean, for now when we had a conflict we either 1) brought up a mess or 2) kept or mouths shout
<thoreauputic> LjL: it just boils down to being a decent person in the end, really :)
<Seveas> jenda, I'll skip the ubuntu/member/cloaks part as that's not a policy decision, pure administrative
<LjL> perhaps we could try discussing conflicts in a not-too-heated manner *before* 1 happens, when we don't feel it's worth to go to the council
<DBO> DHL sucks [/offtopic] 
<gnomefreak> best judgment if you can give reason why it was bad ban provide it (this is where step down in CoC) should kick in
<Hawkwind> LjL: True.  But I think this meeting has already proven we can all get along and that everyones door is open for discussion, as long as someone isn't being accused or embarrassed in public, everyone is fine with a bit of 'discussion'
<thoreauputic> legalism breeds resentment
<LjL> Hawkwind: then why weren't the matters we set up this meeting with discussed *before* it all happened in an explosion-like manner?
<mc44> thoreauputic: but "backing each other up" shouldnt be automatic, people make mistakes
<LjL> and it did explode, let's be honest
<gnomefreak> LjL: i trust most of the ops to make a good ban.
<Hawkwind> LjL: That's human nature.  We didn't feel we knew what page everyone else was on and what was what maybe.  Hard to say really
<thoreauputic> mc44: of course - backing up just means being reasonable and not publicly lrting each other :) ( except in -offtopic of course *grin*)
<gnomefreak> but i shouldnt have to watch my back after bnanning someone
<LjL> Hawkwind: which might point to ... perhaps lack of enough communication?
<kkathman> It seems that there are typically 3 parties involif an OP makes a bad ban, and its called in private, that gives the offending op a chance to privately apologize to the user, and gain respect.  The rest of the people dont need to see all the dirty laundry that happens in between right?
<Hawkwind> LjL: I think some it also has to do with some of the ops are newer than others and aren't sure how everyone else works exactly
<mc44> thoreauputic: right, I just mean that ops shouldnt feel undermined if their decision is overturned later
<gnomefreak> thats one reason why i said read and sign guidelines
<LjL> Hawkwind: see what Seveas quoted from me in his latest ML post, about that
<thoreauputic> mc44: that's an ego issue really
<Hawkwind> LjL: Sure, lack of enough communication is one point.  Which brings us to a point, that maybe we as an ops team should have a meeting atleast once a month or every other month to see what's on everyones mind
<Seveas> Hawkwind, +1
<gnomefreak> +1
<thoreauputic> mc44: we all make mistakes, inevitably
<Seveas> we should be more like a team than a group
<Hawkwind> If all these other teams can do meetings, surely we can too :-)
<thoreauputic> +1
<LjL> +1 for meetings
<Hawkwind> Seveas: I agree
<DBO> Seveas, a team has structure, we need more of that then
<mc44> Hawkwind: an ops team or an irc council?
<Hawkwind> mc44: Honestly, both
<gnomefreak> council when needed
<tonyyarusso> +1 on mtgs - both all-team and council regularly, maybe with different frequencies.
<gnomefreak> since its the 3 people
<Hawkwind> Though the council members are part of the ops team, so it could really be rolled into one in most cases
<Seveas> Hawkwind, indeed
<thoreauputic> so, any objections to meetings ?
<LjL> we meet each month or whatever, and we start saying "hey, 10 days ago i think you made a bad ban". that might work out better than bugging the "bad banner" immediately after the fact, because things have settled down meanwhile
<mc44> right, I wanted to bring up that perhaps the council should not be made up enterily only of ops
<Seveas> mc44, -1
<thoreauputic> i think we have agreement on meetings?
<LjL> however, that needs actions being tracked a bit
<gnomefreak> if they are called to act they meet* otherwise what reason do they have if its gonna affect everyone ops meeting takes it
<gnomefreak> mc44: -1
<Hawkwind> mc44: -1
<gnomefreak> cant trust non ops to do an ops job
<Hawkwind> If the person is good enough for the IRC Council, then surely they are good enough to be an op
<gnomefreak> thats why everyones not an op
<LjL> -1 mc44, sorry, i have already enough pressure from the other ops to feel good with *another* organism watching my back
<Seveas> Hawkwind, well said
<Hawkwind> Seveas: Thanks 
<Seveas> speaking of the council, we have a vacancy
<tonyyarusso> Unfortunately
<mc44> ok, I didnt make my point very well :)
<Seveas> ompaul is having a burn out and much diappointment
<LjL> Seveas: could we talk a little *about* the person who created the vacancy? i can hardly believe it was decided purely due to the bigfuzzyjesus matter
<tonyyarusso> btw, I thought someone had convinced him to come today?
<gnomefreak> Seveas: again have resposiblities list and list of users quilified
<Seveas> ompaul may come back, and I'd love it if he does
<tonyyarusso> Seveas: Agreeing with LjL - I think it would be useful for people to be aware there are other issues, as otherwise it could make him look bad wrongly.
<thoreauputic> LjL: someone said to me that it was a "straw" - there's a limit for everyone
<Hawkwind> LjL: Agreed.  I think there was plenty more to it than just the incident about the ban on that one person
<Seveas> but I've talked to him a lot, and he needs the time off
<gnomefreak> that whole point cant be done today as noone but seveas is here that was involved
<Seveas> gnomefreak, which point?
* gnomefreak has also talked to ompaul alot
<Seveas> the bfj thing?
<gnomefreak> Seveas: bring it up in metting
<gnomefreak> meeting
<DBO> Seveas, I feel wrong having his position filled in a permanent manner, if he comes back he should be welcomed with wide arms to his old position
<Seveas> DBO, I was about to say that
<thoreauputic> DBO: +1
<gnomefreak> depends on how long hes gone
<LjL> Seveas: then my vote (i don't think i'll give a vote *for* a specific person to take ompaul's place) is, whoever gets the place, ompaul should be able to come back, at least for some fixed amount of time, automatically, if he so decides
<gnomefreak> since we dont know
<Hawkwind> DBO: Maybe if/when he comes back, he could be given his position back and we instantly have 4 members of the IRC council
<gnomefreak> Hawkwind: even party :(
<Seveas> Hawkwind, we can discuss that when that time come
<Seveas> s
<DBO> like many of you, I was brought into op status mostly due to ompauls recommendation, we owe it to him to hold his seat if he wants it at a later date
<tonyyarusso> +1 DBO , but also +1 perhaps on Hawkwind , although even number.  For a later date's discussion.
<gnomefreak> council will do things ona  vote 2 +2 == no outcome
<Hawkwind> gnomefreak: I think an even party isn't an issue really.  If we need 4, we have 4
<Seveas> gnomefreak, look at TB and CC, most votes are unanymous
<thoreauputic> gnomefreak: you have little faith it seems :)
<Seveas> if not all
<Hawkwind> gnomefreak: IMO, it's going to be very rare that a vote is needed on something where the outcome would be 2 - 2
<apokryphos> I don't think it would be a problem. So we're agreed that it will be put on the page with the responsibilities?
<Seveas> no
<apokryphos> what will happen?
<DBO> Seveas, I talked to ompaul privately, he was going to try to be here, do you know if hes still trying to make it?
<LjL> could't we live with 2 council members for a while...?
<DBO> +1 LjL
<mc44> Surely the CC will make apoinments to the Irc council, not the IRC ops, though obviously you make the nominations
<DBO> until we know what ompauls decision is
<Seveas> I'd like to ask LjL now whether he'd be interested - LjL has surprised me many times by being insanely bright and making too much sense for a human being
<PriceChild> haha :)
<Seveas> DBO, ompauls decision is to leave
<Seveas> there's no doubt there
<DBO> Seveas, I reject your reality
<tonyyarusso> mc44: AFAIK, the latter is actually the case currently.
<Seveas> DBO, quit watching mythbusters :p
<mc44> tonyyarusso: ok, but in the case of the Forums Council, the CC are approving people
<LjL> Seveas, don't you think time counts something? i haven't been here for so long
<PriceChild> and substitute my own!
<tonyyarusso> mc44: (Another point on the agenda actually, kinda)
<mc44> Seveas: will the CC be ack'ing the Irc council appointments?
<Seveas> LjL, the surprises started way before you were an op
<Hawkwind> LjL: I don't think time matters.  It's the job the person does overall and how well they do it from day one til present
<apokryphos> LjL: some, but it shouldn't be a deciding factor.
<tonyyarusso> LjL: Just bloody say if you're interested and see ;)
<DBO> LjL, you're alright in my book =)
<Seveas> mc44, once we have the IRC council filled again I will present it to the CC
<mc44> Seveas: ok, great
<apokryphos> rob has also said he'd like to be considered
* PriceChild likes LjL (so far ;) )
<apokryphos> but he couldn't make it today
<LjL> +1
<Seveas> apokryphos, I think I'd object to that, since we already have a freenode staffer on board
<LjL> ok, i'm interested.
<apokryphos> so?
<mc44> Seveas: most other councils seem to be 4-5 people though :)
<apokryphos> Seveas: Freenode staffers are sane 8)
<LjL> but even if i take that position, then if ompaul comes back, i think it would be better to just have him take back his place rather than have 4 members
<Seveas> apokryphos, jende is now freenode staff as well. I disagree with your statement ;)
<apokryphos> LjL: why?
<tonyyarusso> Increasing the council size may be a consideration, at 2 freenode staff out of 5 wouldn't be bad.  dunno
<apokryphos> Seveas: scared of highlighting? :P
<Seveas> apokryphos, scared of spellcheckers ;)
<DBO> apokryphos, Seveas is lysdexic
<LjL> apokryphos: well, why not make *everyone* part of the council? there's a right number for everything
<nixternal> oh sh$# jenda is a f8$#*) freenode staffer?
<nixternal> ;p
<apokryphos> I think we'd need to have it to a vote, and also consider anyone else willing to go up. Is there anyone else? ;-)
<Seveas> I think we've covered everything
<LjL> also i am almost forgetting one thing: i am not an Ubuntu member.
<apokryphos> (in the words of Brad Pitt Achilles)
<apokryphos> LjL: never a problem :P
<Seveas> LjL, that's only a matter of coming to the next meeting
<DBO> LjL, speaking of which, you should get an unaffiliated mask
* DBO sports his =)
<mc44> apokryphos: well he needs to be to be on an ubuntu council
<apokryphos> really?
<LjL> DBO: bah, why? if you want to play with my IP address, be my guest :)
<mc44> yes
<Seveas> mc44, no
<apokryphos> mc44: why do you say that?
<apokryphos> No-one should be forced to be an ubuntu member
<apokryphos> and yet still take any position they'd like
<mc44> right, but if you have a leadership position in ubuntu you should be a member
<apokryphos> again, why?
<PriceChild> Well what about this LCoC coming up?
<nixternal> mc44: +1
<apokryphos> I don't think it's necessary at all
<Hawkwind> I thought to be a member of #Ubuntu you had to be a Ubuntu member ?
<PriceChild> wouldn't he be obliged to sign that, and therefore the CoC in the future....
<Hawkwind> Ermm, an op of #Ubuntu I mean
<mc44> apokryphos: the CC do, I believe
<tonyyarusso> I'm somewhat in favor or requiring membership for leadership positions, but do not feel strongly.  I _do_ feel strongly about signing the CoC.
<apokryphos> we can ask people to be ubunteros to have positions, but not membership
<DBO> Hawkwind, nope
<LjL> Hawkwind: honestly i'm not sure i even understood that one right.
<nixternal> apokryphos: well it used to show you that you have contributed and can be somewhat trusted as a member which was supposedly the stepping stone to bigger and better things
<nixternal> hopefully that hasn't changed
<apokryphos> membership means practically nothing in this case, anyhow
<DBO> it means exactly nothing
<LjL> Hawkwind: s/even/ever/
<Hawkwind> LjL: IIRC nalioth has stated if you want to be an op of #Ubuntu you have to be a member of the Ubuntu team or something
<apokryphos> nixternal: like you said: it could be, but it doesn't have to be.
<gnomefreak> if you mean op should be memebers im kinda all for that
<DBO> Hawkwind, well he was wrong then
<apokryphos> Hawkwind: that was the general process
<LjL> Hawkwind: true, but i've seen that stated differently by other people... and i'm an op, anyway
<DBO> I was approved by the CC to op in there, check the mask =)
<Hawkwind> DBO: Then the wiki needs to change, as it states so there
<gnomefreak> but one big issue with that. loco teams may not have members but still need ops in thier channels
<PriceChild> DBO, you don't need to have a cloak to be a member...
<tonyyarusso> I became an op in #ubuntu without being a member, but was "strongly encouraged" to get it "shortly", and was approved at the next mtg a week and a half later, fwiw.
<PriceChild> DBO, any opt out of the cloak
<Hawkwind> I'm an op of #Kubuntu and not a Ubuntu member, so it's very confusing to say the least
<DBO> PriceChild, I know, I was just providing an easy allusion
<LjL> at any rate, i'm not against getting membership. show up at a meeting? sure. i mostly just don't like the idea of putting up a Wiki page about myself.
<PriceChild> k
<apokryphos> Hawkwind: me, LjL and DBO are also not members, and op in many ubuntu-related channels
<Seveas> being an op means contributing to the ubuntu community
<Seveas> so being an op helps in becoming a member
<tonyyarusso> Also, gnomefreak had some concerns about other aspects of how people become ops - would he like to bring those up?
<gnomefreak> Seveas nalioth possible cloak one being ubuntu/memeber/op/nick or for oters that are not memebeers /unaff.../op/nick
<Seveas> not the other way around
<Hawkwind> I ask because I was once going to try to be an in #Ubuntu too since it seems we need more ops there, or atleast at one time.
<mc44> apokryphos: in the Forums Governance spec: "The nominees active status as an Ubuntu member (essential)."
<apokryphos> exactly
<Seveas> gnomefreak, nope
<apokryphos> mc44: they can do that, fine.
<apokryphos> mc44: but there's no *Ubuntu* rule about it, and I think it'd be silly if there was.
<mc44> apokryphos: the same will apply to an irc council the CC approves
<gnomefreak> we need one way to become an op (everyone should have the same chance)
<apokryphos> mc44: membership is not forced upon anyone.
<LjL> i have to type /away now. sorry for the triviality but... there is something i can't miss, namely dinner. see you in a half hour
<Seveas> gnomefreak, the way to become op is to stand out and be asked
<mc44> apokryphos: it is if they wish to be in a leadership position, I am merely stating the position of the CC here
<Seveas> LjL, bon appetit
<apokryphos> I say all Op-requests should have to go through the IRC council or the CC
* PriceChild can never see the problem people have with signing the CoC... its just a document of common decency
<DBO> LjL, I'd like to chat with you later, lemme know when you are back =)
<nixternal> Seveas: then how in the hell did i get added tot he team?
<gnomefreak> Seveas: me you nalioth so on had to be approved by CC right?
<apokryphos> mc44: please direct me to where the CC says that.
<Seveas> apokryphos, the irc council was created to not have to go to the CC for everything
<apokryphos> Seveas: exactly, which is why it shouldn't be required for giving ops
<mc44> apokryphos: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ForumsGovernance
<Seveas> apokryphos, the CC doesn't
<Seveas> mc44, forums != irc
<apokryphos> mc44: key there is *Forum*
<mc44> Seveas: the document was created BY the CC
<apokryphos> mc44: key there is *Forum*
<mc44> specifically to legitimise the Forums Council
<Seveas> mc44: key there is *Forum*
<nixternal> !repeat | apokryphos
<nixternal> ;)
<mc44> I may be wrong
<nixternal> damn, didn't work
<thoreauputic> mc44: yes :)
<DBO> no ubotu
<PriceChild> mc44, it was RADICALLY changed by the forums staff though
<mc44> by that I believe is the position  of the CC
<Hawkwind> Is the key there *Forum* by chance :-)
<nixternal> hahahaha
<Seveas> Hawkwind, it seems to be
<mc44> PriceChild: mako and sabdfl insisted on that clause
<Hawkwind> Heh
<nixternal> speaking of forums...well i would rather not
<PriceChild> mc44, which clause?
<PriceChild> nixternal, shh :)
<gnomefreak> mc44: it was up to vote
<Seveas> nixternal, heh
<mc44> PriceChild: about council memebrs being ubuntu members
<PriceChild> nothing wrong with forums.... :P
<apokryphos> mc44: forum council members
* thoreauputic thought this was about IRC ops...
<Seveas> thoreauputic, it is
<thoreauputic> :)
<Hawkwind> What about going through current ops lists(specifically #Kubuntu) and cleaning them up with ops who are no longer active and possibly replacing them with new ops who are active ?
<mc44> apokryphos: yes, and the IRC council, if it wants the same legitimacy, will have to be the same
<PriceChild> mc44, yeah that was insisted, but is fine for staff to be non-members, as it should be fine for ops to be non-members
<gnomefreak> #ubuntuforums is what i think they mean
<apokryphos> Hawkwind: my first plan once I get approval from Riddell
<thoreauputic> mc44: does not follow
<Seveas> Hawkwind, +1 on removing, that'll be the job for apokryphos
<nixternal> OMG, lets leave the forums stuff out, cuz i am bubbling right now trying to hold this back
<mc44> PriceChild: yes, Im only talking about council memebrs here
<gnomefreak> removing?
<PriceChild> mc44, ok sorry
<Hawkwind> apokryphos: I'd like to recommend atleast one person when the time comes
<Seveas> gnomefreak, removing inactiv ops from access lists
<mc44> thoreauputic: you dont believe irc will be held to the same standard?
<gnomefreak> agreed
<apokryphos> Hawkwind: sure, I'll ping you to keep you up-to-date
<apokryphos> mc44: yes
<Hawkwind> apokryphos: Thanks :-)
<apokryphos> mc44: because we'll all object ;-)
<mc44> apokryphos: and the CC will not approve you, IMHO
<Seveas> mc44, the standard is behaviour, not membership. But in case of the forums membership was forced to enforce behaviour
<PriceChild> mc44, I do believe forums and irc governance could have a lot in common
<apokryphos> IMHO, they will.
<thoreauputic> mc44: can we stay on topic? There are universal standards, and specific ones agreed for cases
<gnomefreak> Seveas: how would we define who is op in where?
<nixternal> mc44: we have a special weapon named Seveas to get us past that :)
<mc44> thoreauputic: im sorry, I was answering questions asked of me. I shall shut it now
<tonyyarusso> It would be good to have the system for new ops to become so laid out somewhere, both for non-ops wondering and our own sake if we have a nomination to make, regardless of what the process is.
<Seveas> gnomefreak, that's very ad-hoc now, but topic for another meeting
<apokryphos> and: what is the requirement for being in the Launchpad IRC Op team
<gnomefreak> k
<apokryphos> ok, till the next meeting then
<Hawkwind> Will new ops be voted on by current ops.  Let's say Seveas nominates johndoe as a possible new op.  Does he just get the position or will it be voted ?
<gnomefreak> apokryphos: your there arnt you?
<Seveas> apokryphos, currently: being op in a main ubuntu channel (ie: all but locoteams)
<apokryphos> gnomefreak: yeah
<gnomefreak> all ops should be listed there
<thoreauputic> mc44: that wasn't intended to mean you need to be quiet :)
<PriceChild> Hawkwind, opinions of current ops taken into account then final decision by council?
<Seveas> Hawkwind, IRC coucil votes
<mc44> thoreauputic: ok :)
<PriceChild> Seveas, ^
<thoreauputic> :)
<apokryphos> Seveas: there are many smaller channels that aren't locoteams
<Seveas> PriceChild that's how it goes now
<PriceChild> gd gd :)
<Seveas> apokryphos, true
<Hawkwind> Ah ok, good
<Seveas> apokryphos, the definition of that team is up for debat, but not now
<DBO> ok we are extremely tangented here Seveas, can you pull us back to whatever work item we're on so we can take action?
<Seveas> (I'm expecting a visitor within minutes)
<apokryphos> ok. Shall we move on?
<Seveas> DBO, we were talking about how it is decided who are ops and council
<gnomefreak> break him away from his game :)
<Seveas> which is the last point
<apokryphos> can we talk about cloaks?
<Seveas> unless someone has someting else
<apokryphos> who should be able to give the ok?
<Seveas> apokryphos, what' to talk about?
<gnomefreak> ok so the IRC council will vote on ops right?
<Seveas> what's*
<Seveas> cloaks are available for all ubuntu members
<apokryphos> Currently, who can tell staffers to ok people for cloak membership
<Seveas> I need to approve them to freenode staff
<Seveas> and only I can do that
<apokryphos> right, which is the question
<apokryphos> Seveas: rob says that doesn't have to be the case
<Seveas> but when the council is working and acked by the CC, we can fill out other contact forms
<apokryphos> he says that staffers can do "whatever Ubuntu tell us to do"
<Seveas> which is what I intend to do
<Seveas> this is just blocked on administrativa
<apokryphos> hm, and what happens with the contact forms?
<apokryphos> who approves them?
<nalioth> apokryphos: they are submitted and never seen again
<Hawkwind> Hah
<nalioth> apokryphos: one of the top 3 staff members
<apokryphos> but surely it's not staffers that approve it
<Seveas> apokryphos, the ubuntu side of contact forms can only be approved by me, but I want that to be approved by the CC
<apokryphos> why only you?
<nalioth> apokryphos: it is "approved" by the CC before it is sent to freenode staff
* jenda back
<Seveas> apokryphos, currently, I'm the only contact but I don't do such things without CC approval
<apokryphos> so you're saying you want it to be changed so that the CC approves all cloaks?
<Seveas> yup
<apokryphos> Seveas: you are the only contact but that doesn't necessitate that you're the only one who can ok the cloaks
<Seveas> err no
<gnomefreak> i like that idea
<Seveas> IRC council
<gnomefreak> yeah better
<Seveas> i have a visitor now, so I'm out
<apokryphos> now I understand ;-)
<anto9us> Hi everyone, sorry I missed most of the meeting, I had a meeting with a potential client. Was the suggestion I posted to the mailing list discussed? Specifically, a no-ops council
<Seveas> sorry
<tonyyarusso> anto9us: Barely.
<nalioth> apokryphos: he wants more folks to be able to request staff cloakage
<thoreauputic> thanks Seveas :)
<gnomefreak> anto9us: it was denied afaik
<DBO> Seveas, ok thank you
<apokryphos> nalioth: agreed
<DBO> anto9us, denied
<jenda> what's under discussion now? (sorry for being slow)
<anto9us> ok, will the IRC Council comprise of any non-ops?
<apokryphos> jenda: we just covered cloaks
<gnomefreak> jenda: nothing i think its over
<jenda> ok
<mc44> anto9us: yes, its my fault for not making a better argument
<apokryphos> Are there any other issues?
<mc44> :-/
<apokryphos> they can still be discussed
<anto9us> mc44, I should have been here really :)
<tonyyarusso> There are some good points by rob on nalioth's wiki - not "discussion" issues but good for everyone to read.
<tonyyarusso> Mostly covered already as well.
<gnomefreak> apokryphos: im looking at agenda and i think thats it (flexing your ops) maybe?
<anto9us> will the IRC Council comprise of any non-ops?
<thoreauputic> Mentors for new ops? Is that an idea?
<DBO> anto9us, no
<mc44> anto9us: no
<tonyyarusso> thoreauputic: I like it.
<PriceChild> thoreauputic, i like that
<jenda> anto9us: there seems to be no logical reason for it.
<mc44> anto9us: unless of course you bring it up before the CC when Seveas proses it
<apokryphos> thoreauputic: I think that's a good idea
<gnomefreak> thoreauputic: we can do that
<apokryphos> even if you're familiar with operating you still need to know some things
<anto9us> well, excuse me for saying so, but it's very much a clique then isn't it?
<nixternal> ls
<thoreauputic> maybe I can write to the list about it then
<nixternal> oops
<tonyyarusso> I had somewhat informal mentors, mostly nalioth and apokryphos, but a specific pairing kind of thing could be useful.
<apokryphos> everyone's had quasi-mentors, but never officially or anything
<DBO> nixternal, we are not your terminal
<jenda> nixternal: and yes, jenda is a freenode staffer now ;)
<gnomefreak> anto9us: if you know the rules good enough to be on a coucil you can become an op
<thoreauputic> apokryphos: right
<Hawkwind> anto9us: As I stated earlier, if a person is good enough to be a member of the IRC Council, then they are good enough to be an op
<mc44> Hawkwind: but they may not want to be an op :-/
<anto9us> gnomefreak, that's really not the point
<jenda> anto9us: and conflict of insterest is highly unlikely.
<tonyyarusso> anto9us: Likely beyond the scope of this meeting anyway if it needs much discussion, since we're shooting for being done in 15 minutes.
<PriceChild> mc44, then they shouldn't be on the council
<Hawkwind> mc44: Doesn't matter, that's the decision that's been made
<mc44> Hawkwind: yes, I wasnt trying to debate it again
<Hawkwind> mc44: If they don't want to be an op, then they don't deserve to be on the IRC Council
<Hawkwind> mc44: I wasn't either.  I was stating more so anto9us could see
<mc44> apologies
<apokryphos> thoreauputic: yeah, raise that on the list, Good idea.
<thoreauputic> apokryphos: OK will do within the day if possible
<DBO> I got dinner with my other half in 15, Im stepping out to freshen up =)
<apokryphos> cool
<apokryphos> Anything else? Otherwise we can adjourn for today 8)
<apokryphos> I think it's been very productive =)
<gnomefreak> +1 for adjourn
<mc44> I think Ive been very annoying :)
<thoreauputic> I second adjournment :)
<thoreauputic> mc44: nah, you're fine :)
<anto9us> is next meeting scheduled yet?
<Hawkwind> anto9us: Not yet
<gnomefreak> anto9us: no
<Hawkwind> We should actually do that
<anto9us> ok, thanks
<Hawkwind> That way it's officially in these logs
<gnomefreak> 2 weeks?
<apokryphos> someone raise that on the list
<apokryphos> I'd say at least a month
<gnomefreak> that will give us tiome to go over any changes
<tonyyarusso> We should make some sort of scheduling table to see what works for most.
<gnomefreak> time*
<thoreauputic> with the hholidays, a month seems realistic
<tonyyarusso> The marketing team has a nice thing on their wiki section for that
<Hawkwind> I'd say 2 weeks since there are things Seveas wanted us to comment on the list about and revisit it soon
<gnomefreak> oh crap i forgot
<tonyyarusso> gnomefreak: what?
<apokryphos> Hawkwind: msot of those are meant to be dealt with on the list though
<gnomefreak> Hawkwind: cristmas newyears and stuff people might be traveling
<tonyyarusso> True.
* gnomefreak forgot about all that when i said 2 weeks
<tonyyarusso> We may need to make it a month even if that's not ideal, because of the holidays.
<gnomefreak> lets go for early jan?
<apokryphos> It'd be nice if someone could write up the minutes for the meeting, today, too.
<tonyyarusso> Early jan is good on my end mostly.
<tonyyarusso> I'm no good for minutes-writing - I'm completely incommunicado for the next two days.
<gnomefreak> i have to leave town in mid jan. and will be gone til feb AFAIK
<apokryphos> shall we say 17 Jan?
<apokryphos> well, I think we should raise the date on the list first
<gnomefreak> i think i leave 13th or 14th
<gnomefreak> cant rememb
<gnomefreak> er
<tonyyarusso> Yes, throw out a few dates on the list, but let's get a ballpark.
<apokryphos> We have to clear this place for Edubuntu people. Let's take discussion to -ops
<gnomefreak> that or weekend after
<tonyyarusso> Sounds good.
<mc44> apokryphos: the new improved *public* ops? :)
<apokryphos> Good stuff, thank you everyone. :)
<apokryphos> mc44: sure
<thoreauputic> OK --->> ops
<tonyyarusso> That was a good meeting.
<anto9us> -ops is public now?
* tonyyarusso pats everyone on the back
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:Ubugtu] : Current meeting: Edubuntu | Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 21 Dec 21:00 UTC: Ubuntu Development Team | 27 Dec 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 28 Dec 08:00 UTC: Ubuntu Development Team | 02 Jan 20:00 UTC: Technical Board | 03 Jan 20:00 UTC: Edubuntu
<tonyyarusso> anto9us: yes
<thoreauputic> very positive meeting - thanks everyone
<mc44> thanks for listening to me
<mc44> :)
<tonyyarusso> mc44: Drop any future comments with any of us in the future too
<mc44> tonyyarusso: yes, but next time Ill have anto9us make a more convincing argument :)
<tonyyarusso> mc44: Yes, I don't think we fully understand we're he's coming from yet.
<anto9us> I'll formulate a detailed reasoning
<anto9us> I think it's mostly there in the mailing list, just fragmented
<nalioth> i believe the Edubunut meeting is on the way here
<nalioth>  #ubuntu-ops is available for this
<anto9us> ok, thanks
<tonyyarusso> yeppers
* tonyyarusso clears out
<highvoltage> t-2m
<stgraber> @schedule Zurich
<Ubugtu> Schedule for Europe/Zurich: Current meeting: Edubuntu | 21 Dec 22:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 27 Dec 13:00: Edubuntu | 28 Dec 09:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 02 Jan 21:00: Technical Board | 03 Jan 21:00: Edubuntu
<stgraber> Looks like I'm just at time :)
* willvdl swats a mosquito
* RichEd greetz all
<RichEd> back in a minute
<RichEd> Hi all ...
<RichEd> ogra: any technical news ?
<rodarvus> hi there
<zul> @schedule montreal
<Ubugtu> Schedule for America/Montreal: Current meeting: Edubuntu | 21 Dec 16:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 27 Dec 07:00: Edubuntu | 28 Dec 03:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 02 Jan 15:00: Technical Board | 03 Jan 15:00: Edubuntu
<ogra> not really, edsadmin (the new user/groups admin tool) for edubuntu-network-auth-server is in the new queue
<ogra> apart from that i was busy with merges and poking around in ldap
<LaserJock> ogra: is that only for network auth?
<LaserJock> edsadmin
<ogra> yeps
<ogra> thats the replacement for the user and groups tool
<LaserJock> ok, but what about local users and groups?
<LaserJock> I'm not really sure how all that works, I should read up
<LaserJock> I was hoping it would be relatively simple to tie user/group managment to the menu GUI
<ogra> if edubuntu-network-client is installed, the menu entry for users and groups is replaced by esdadmin
<ogra> or if edubuntu-network-server is installed ...
<ogra> so as long as the machine has one of these installed, the machine is either client or server in the edubuntu network and has no local users
<LaserJock> so you get one or the other
<rodarvus> ogra: *no* local users?
<ogra> (apart from the defaul system users indeed)
<rodarvus> :)
<highvoltage> kewl
<ogra> well thats about it, oh, and gcompris is at version 8.2.2
<LaserJock> I saw that
<cbx33> sorry I'm late guys
<RichEd> hi pete
<cbx33> hey RichEd
<cbx33> where are we?
<stgraber> Sorry, I didn't really follow the discussions about edubuntu-network-server, is any Windows compatibility planned ? (through Samba for example) ?
<highvoltage> on testing, there's been only some response, which is ok considering that Feisty is only at the first alpha release.
<willvdl> cbx33: edsadmin
<ogra> stgraber, https://blueprints.launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+spec/edubuntu-network-auth-client and https://blueprints.launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+spec/edubuntu-network-auth-server have all the inf
<ogra> o
<cbx33> ok...I have a piece for tech ogra so let me know when ;)
<ogra> i'm done
<stgraber> thx
<highvoltage> the only bug seemed to be about the gdmsetup program not starting up. testing will continue to get more aggressive as alpha releases become available.
<ogra> i havent seen that one ...
<cbx33> ok, can I take the stand
<RichEd> go for it cbx33
<cbx33> "Fly me to the moon and let me....play among the stars..."
<cbx33> sorry
* RichEd plays the piano
<cbx33> I was talking to aliasvegas earlier
<cbx33> and sbalneav
<LaserJock> heh, I thought it was his intro
<cbx33> we came up with a concept I wanted to put before people
<cbx33> on the ldm login screen....
<cbx33> what do people think of this https://wiki.ubuntu.com/EdubuntuArtwork/Palette?highlight=%28palette%29
<cbx33> with a real working analog clock
<cbx33> and.....a MOTD section
<cbx33> it's just a conecpt....but borders on tech/art
<willvdl> ooh, I like the message idea
<cbx33> I'm willing to code up the clock if people think it's a good enough concept
<ogra> to much graphics for ldm ... you cant do any fullscreen graphics, it slows it down to much
<willvdl> nobody will be able to miss that
<cbx33> willvdl: we were thinking of literaslly /etc/motd
<highvoltage> cbx33: that is seriously cool
<cbx33> ogra: ok
<cbx33> no way we can compress or do something seriously funky.....i guess that owuld take us to spec stage
<ogra> if you manage to keep the graphics small it would be fine indeed :)
<highvoltage> cbx33: would the real analogue clock also come from the gdesklets code? :)
<cbx33> yeh?
<cbx33> highvoltage: could do....or we could write our own
<RichEd> artwork looks very slick i must say
<cbx33> it's just a concept....hmmm....
<cbx33> we could possibly use a canvas and draw it....?? what d'ya think ogra ?
<cbx33> instead of using a screen shot?
<willvdl> so admins could easily add MOTD's to the pool?
<cbx33> yes
<cbx33> we could even have it on a rotating basis
<ogra> it is a canvas
<willvdl> or maybe fortune?
<cbx33> then all is cool
<cbx33> willvdl: as you wish
<ogra> so you can draw what you like indeed :)
<cbx33> ogra: I'll take a look at that if you think it's a good idea
<ogra> just keep the smallness of bitmaps in mind, thats all i demand, ldm is slow enough ;)
<cbx33> ok
<ogra> sure, go ahead
<willvdl> nice
<cbx33> ogra: is it pixel sizes that kill
<cbx33> or just overall size ?
<ogra> bytes
<cbx33> ok
<cbx33> gimme a limit
<ogra> its a matter of network and bandwith
<cbx33> I'll try to work to it with graphics.....
<cbx33> if not I'll look at drawing
<ogra> currently the logo in 200x50px or something is the limit, dunno how big you can go
<willvdl> cbx33, presumably scaling down the palette would do the trick?
<cbx33> Whatsisname: that was my idea
<cbx33> whoops
<cbx33> willvdl: that was my idea
<highvoltage> imho the graphics for the login manager only makes a small difference compared to the rest of the data a thin client reads to boot off from the network. but ogra is right, no need to make it slower :)
<cbx33> maybe have a more rraytrace type shadow instead of shadowmaps
* RichEd remembers when windows had the ability to embed web info into the desktop, like a stock ticker tape, and wonders if a school would find that useful for a "school or principals" message / announcement stream.
<cbx33> RichEd: sounds good
<cbx33> ooh
<ogra> RichEd, thats what gdesklets does ....
<cbx33> if this works...we could have a deskbar applet that reads the same info
<willvdl> ActiveDesktop
<cbx33> willvdl: wash your mouth out
<cbx33> :p
<RichEd> where it us a text feed, and local HTML rendering
<willvdl> sorry, shouldn't use capitals :)
<cbx33> so good to experiemnt with then eh?
<ogra> sure
<cbx33> cool
<RichEd> It would need a simple tool to edit the news / message to show the principal ... it may be a small "selling feature" when doing a demo.
<sbalneav> Hello
<cbx33> and now SCP
<sbalneav> Sorry I'm late
<cbx33> np sbalneav I just pitched your MPTD idea
<RichEd> hey sbalneav :) wassup ?
<willvdl> hey
<cbx33> MOTD
<cbx33> it's a big hit
<ogra> MOTD ?
<ogra> sbalneav, hey
<cbx33> ogra: we'll leave it till after christmas if you like
<cbx33> message of the day
<sbalneav> Stylin' and Profilin' :)
<ogra> ah
<LaserJock> RichEd: there are some apps that show things like MOTD or system logs in the background
<cbx33> can we sched a meeting for SCP
<LaserJock> perhaps we could adapt something like that
<ogra> cbx33, tomorrow ?
<sbalneav> ogra: got a quick patch for you, I'll try to get it in my bzr tree by end of day.
<cbx33> ogra.....ok what time
<cbx33> early is good for me
<cbx33> like 9-11 UTC kinda time
<cbx33> 9am :p
<cbx33> too early for you?
<ogra> hmm, thats bad for me ...
<RichEd> LaserJock yes ... I am sure it it 90% possible at the moment ... with some tweaks to make it look like a school announcement to be noticed.
<cbx33> ok
<cbx33> what about evening?
<ogra> i'd prefer 14UTC or something around that or evening
<cbx33> RichEd: we could tie it into the artwork...so to have a space on the wallpaper...
<cbx33> ogra: 14 UTC is gonna be probably travel time for me
<cbx33> evening would work better
<cbx33> I'll have to confirm
<RichEd> cbx33: that was my first impression before I saw the login box ... i figured it was a wallpaper.
<cbx33> yeh
<ogra> oki, we need to be done before 20:00UTC ... i have a meeting at 21 UTC
<cbx33> ok
<nixternal> doh, sorry, im here :)
<cbx33> we'll get there one day ;)
<ogra> lets say 18:00 UTC
<cbx33> hmmm.bad for me :p
<ogra> 19 ?
<cbx33> ogra: let's carry this on in pm
<cbx33> no point holding up the meeting
<ogra> ok
<ogra> well, then tech is done
<cbx33> ogra: one more
<cbx33> did you get my patch this time?
<RichEd> Some tech related news from Rodarvus is that he will be winding up his X responsibilities for the distro team and starting to focus more directly on education work in 2007.
<ogra> cbx33, yes
<ogra> looks fine to me
<cbx33> ogra: is it good to go?
<cbx33> excellent....
<rodarvus> \o/
<highvoltage> :-D
<willvdl> rodarvus: woot++
<highvoltage> rodarvus: are you still working on OLPC stuff?
<rodarvus> no, unfortunately this is also on hold. (for other reasons)
<RichEd> highvoltage: the thai government have dropped their entire OLPC involvement
<sbalneav> Who's going to be X maintainer now?
<highvoltage> i read :-/
<rodarvus> yeah :)
<willvdl> I heard someone refer to it as the $200 laptop the other day. Must be inflation
<rodarvus> so, I'll be working on the education team (for real) from now on :)
<RichEd> so rodarvus will stay on top of the OLPC initiative, but it is not a delivery focus
<willvdl> Yay whiteboards! ?
<RichEd> yep ... coming to that ...
<rodarvus> sbalneav: afaik it will be a team effort (as it was before I arrived), until Canonical finds the right person
<highvoltage> willvdl: OLPC said that the initial laptops will actually cost US$200-US%350 to manufacture, but that it should come down to US$100 as the unit quantities scale up
<willvdl> ah
<sbalneav> ogra: I suppose we should file a bug for the X memory preseed.
<sbalneav> So it doesn't get lost in the shuffle.
<ogra> yeah
<ogra> dunno who merges xserver-xorg, seb128 is listed on merges.ubuntu.com for it
<RichEd> rodarvus' initial focus will be testing / integration and CD build
<ogra> the fix needs to go into that package ...
<LaserJock> awesome
<RichEd> and he's also going to look at the other education related devices out there that come into the frame ...
<cbx33> coool
<cbx33> rodarvus: \o/
<rodarvus> :)
<ogra> rodarvus, hacking kernel drivers for electronic whiteboards ?
<willvdl> this is good news indeed
<RichEd> so he's chatting to willvdl about finding out the situation with smartboards / interactive whiteboards
<highvoltage> cool, there's talk that Via will release a laptop that's closer to a 'real' laptop for US$350-US$400, I think that's going to make some inroads into many areas.
<rodarvus> ogra: no way :)
<ogra> heh
<cbx33> rodarvus: oh in that case...maybe you can help me out ;) with my interactive whiteboard
<RichEd> i.e. where are they now w.r.t. open source ... do they need help getting compatile etc.
<cbx33> I have some info on hitachi
<rodarvus> a brazilian company called Positivo released a 400US$ laptop, for a national program for poor students
<cbx33> who do I speak to?
<rodarvus> this is not "market reality"
<rodarvus> (yet)
<rodarvus> but will, in the future
<rodarvus> the sad part is that they have a very good (and close) relationship with Microsoft
<rodarvus> and the thing will run XP Starter Edition
<rodarvus> cbx33: sure, I can try :)
<highvoltage> eek!
<cbx33> hang on I'll pm you
<RichEd> so if anyone gets interesting news in this area, or has contacts, send an email to rodarvus
<willvdl> rodarvus, do you if it's true that AMD ship 14000 PICs a month into Brazil?
<rodarvus> any emails/news/info will be appreciated :)
<RichEd> highvoltage & willvdl : rodarvus will also look at the microclient junior / nohrtec appliance to see what help they need with xubuntu or xfce
<rodarvus> willvdl: I don't have any numbers, but its a reasonable number, I'd say.
<RichEd> So on the one hand, rodarvus will have a core dev focus, helping with the Edubuntu product
<willvdl> "Smart" (makers of original whiteboard) have linux support. THey are NEPAD partner...sortof
<cbx33> good to have you (back) rodarvus
<LaserJock> does my calculator count as an educational device? perhaps it could run micro-Edubuntu :-)
<RichEd> And on the other will be some specualtion / strategic stuff ... where you can all help with sending education related h/w news
<cbx33> LaserJock: Casio 9850-G
<rodarvus> yeah, its good to be back :)
<willvdl> RichEd, working with Norhtec guys on that?
<cbx33> now that'd rock ;)
<LaserJock> I've got a TI-92 that people have called a computer
<cbx33> heh
<cbx33> ok where are we?
<RichEd> willvdl: well they have approached us, and say that they have clients using the device and linux ... and they would like to suggest ubuntu to the clients
<LaserJock> tech doc?
<rodarvus> (on the phone, will be back in a minute)
<willvdl> ah. Nigeria
<willvdl> Trying to turn their clients into a LoCo
<highvoltage> their clients?
<highvoltage> that sounds interesting!
<RichEd> willvdl: they have OEM clients who use the Nohrtec appliances in building an end-products
<RichEd> and the OEM clients do not want to pay for a win licence out of their own margin
<willvdl> :)
<willvdl> long story
<RichEd> table side menus that are interactive and let you order from a touchscreen ...
<highvoltage> 22:37 < LaserJock> tech doc?
<highvoltage> willvdl?
<willvdl> well, I always get tech doc and community doc confused
<LaserJock> well, it's sort of the same thing isn't it?
<willvdl> but Topic Based Help has been moved into the trunk. I'm getting up to speed as we go
<willvdl> https://wiki.edubuntu.org/EdubuntuWikiCleanup has been going well and is an important excercise
* willvdl makes call for suggestions/comments on it
<LaserJock> we should see if we could get a new yelp front page for Edubuntu
<LaserJock> for TBH that would include the Ubuntu stuff plus LTPS, etc.
<willvdl> would make sense
<LaserJock> Don Scorgie would be a good resource for that
<willvdl> who is he?
<LaserJock> but maybe Matthew East could too
<LaserJock> one of the main Gnome doc devs
<LaserJock> he's the upstream upstream for yelp
<willvdl> next stop is to rejuvinate the handbook. any thoughts on how TBH would impact it?
<LaserJock> well, I think it would sort of give it the "bite-sized" flavor
<cbx33> well handbook is going well
<cbx33> nixternal: and sbalneav are working on it right?
<sbalneav> There's a bit more work to be done on the LTSP side.  Specifically, what's REALLY needed is a good solid "debugging thin clients" section.
<ogra> ++
<sbalneav> Yes, I'll work on that, and all LTSP related stuff.
<highvoltage> sbalneav: please shout if you need anything
<ogra> i9'll look into merging vagrants ltsp-chroot script
<ogra> so we'll have a commandline maintenance tool
<LaserJock> I think many of the empty sections could be filled from the Ubuntu docs
<cbx33> nice
<ogra> and dont forget ltsp manager ...
<willvdl> sbalneav, I'll help with the outlines etc. and can contribute on the softer stuff
<willvdl> Are there any thoughts on a Desktop Guide like the other distros? Or is the Handbook to take this role?
<ogra> i thought the handbook was supposed to ...
<LaserJock> I see the handbook as Desktop Guide + LTSP + ESA
<ogra> but that might have changed over time, i'm not surte anymore
<cbx33> indeed
<willvdl> that answers question fine, thanks
<LaserJock> I would grab desktop guide material from Ubuntu
<RichEd> willvdl: how would you see the difference (if any)
<willvdl> none really
<willvdl> only in name
<willvdl> there is ubuntu desktop guide & book
<highvoltage> willvdl: it might be a good idea to define the role of what the handbook is? I think a big problem with the handbook has been that there hasn't been a clear definition of what it's supposed to be
<willvdl> we have book as guide
<RichEd> desktop guide sounds very end-user specific ... whereas the handbook is a guide for user as well as admin ?
<willvdl> gotcha
<willvdl> I prefer handbook
<RichEd> yep. me 2
<willvdl> besides, it gets difficult to think of edubuntu in terms of the desktop and server guide
<LaserJock> well, with TBH we don't use the word "Guide" anymore
<LaserJock> it's all about the topic, doesn't matter from which content it comes
<willvdl> ah yes, saw that discussion
<willvdl> but eventually the topics get pulled into something
<LaserJock> a "One doc to rule them all" approach is nice, but difficult to manage and get people involved as it can be a bit overwhelming, IMO
<willvdl> LaserJock agreed.
<willvdl> The nice thing about TBH is it gets easier to pull together a doc for an audience
<LaserJock> yep
<willvdl> on demand
<willvdl> just takes some major forward planning :)
<willvdl> anyhoo, TBH is in trunk
<willvdl> I wanted to ask about the other "docs" as such
<willvdl> Release Notes: they appear for betas, and releases right?
<RichEd> yep ... from my experience ... a release triggers a doc
<LaserJock> yep
<willvdl> where do the beta release notes go?
<LaserJock> wiki
<willvdl> I've noticed some old ones in the wiki
<LaserJock> I think the herds and beta/RC go on the wiki
<willvdl> cool. they then get poached into the svn at release time?
<RichEd> they should also be available as a link to download / save next to any .iso release
<willvdl> RichEd, they are all on help.u.c
<RichEd> yep, but if say a new release requires a certain hardware spec, then it is polite to let a user check that out before downloading an .iso which he does not have enough RAM to run for example.
<willvdl> yip. they are made available with the releases. not exactly sure where though
<RichEd> I am envisaging a kind of a readme before you upgrade / download requirement.
<RichEd> wiki page is fine ... I just am commenting that it should also be listed next to the download file.
<willvdl> I'm looking on releases.ubuntu.com anyon know where they go?
<ogra> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/EdgyReleaseNotes ?
<willvdl> ogra, meaning RichEd is right, I don't see them on releases.ubuntu.com...
<ogra> no, they arent there
<ogra> probably they should be linked from the html ..
<ogra> colin maintains the template afaik
<willvdl> will check with him
<willvdl> so we maintain r-notes in wiki and the then end up in svn before release so that we have formatted copies right?
<ogra> dunno if there are any formatted copies...
<ogra> i only know the wiki version
<ogra> and thats the one that gets linked from the release announcement etc
<willvdl> kubuntu do it
<willvdl> no big deal. just checking.
<ogra> well, it would make sense to ship them probably ...
<LaserJock> release notes get shipped in the -docs
<ogra> ah
<ogra> now you see how much developers look into docs :P
<LaserJock> we have an old one from jerome in svn alreday
<LaserJock> exactly
<ogra> yep, together with an about page iirc
<willvdl> LaserJock, did Jerome normally handle that?
<LaserJock> long ago
<LaserJock> it's basically unmaintained and dormant
<willvdl> OK. should be easy enough to poach wiki page info
<ogra> btw, jerome was disabled from the council, we should talk about a successor (and elect one at the next EC meeting)
<willvdl> which is next year right?
<LaserJock> should we take nominations?
<sbalneav> What's happened to Jerome?
<highvoltage> sbalneav: his new job consumed him
<willvdl> sbalneav, job is taking time
<cbx33> willvdl: when I heard you say that I thought...NEXT YEAR...that's ages aw.....oh no it isn't
<highvoltage> cbx33: less than two weeks hey :)
<willvdl> it's tomorrow. no wait that's the end of the world
<highvoltage> 42
<cbx33> heheh
<willvdl> OK. release notes, no problem
<willvdl> About Edubuntu, looking at it, it appears to be another flavour of the release notes anyway
<LaserJock> should be an ESA doc except maybe less marketing flavored :-)
<willvdl> LaserJock, I struggle to differentiate between R-Notes and About-Ubuntu
<willvdl> in terms of content
<willvdl> ogra, do you write the release notes?
<ogra> usually i add the tech bits
<willvdl> gotcha
<ogra> there were release notes i wrote in the past ...
<ogra> but during the last two releases it was rather an edubuntu doc team effort ...
<willvdl> R-Notes + About E + Handbook should keep us very busy on the tech doc side
<ogra> sounds like
<willvdl> ESA and the related wiki bits are very exciting
<cbx33> heheh
<cbx33> ESA was well planned
<willvdl> sooo many opportunities for it
<cbx33> inderdaad
<cbx33> Artwork?
<cbx33> are we there yet mommy?
<willvdl> ESA should basically become Edubuntu Marketing: covering leaflets etc. to promotional material
<willvdl> what I'm still getting head around is trying to find out where targetted docs for specific audiences would lie... Handbook derivitives? Or ESA?
<cbx33> would lie?
<cbx33> as in storage?
<LaserJock> I'd keep the R-Notes, About E, and Handbook in doc team svn as static docs
<willvdl> storage and in development
<ogra> cbx33, no in "chating the reader"
<LaserJock> and the rest go on the wiki or a edubuntu-marketing bzr repo
<ogra> :P
<willvdl> LaserJock, agree
<willvdl> ESA is currently in docteam svn
<cbx33> yes
<willvdl> it's something we can plan around. I guess first priority is working on the actual handbook
<willvdl> before looking at what different audiences would want
<cbx33> yes
<cbx33> I'd like to get ESA updated
<LaserJock> yeah, first things first
<cbx33> before feb
<cbx33> well before Jan really
<willvdl> sweet. I got enough info thanks guys
<LaserJock> I'd actually move ESA out of the doc team repo into a bzr repo for edubuntu-marketing
<cbx33> RichEd: what kinda stuff can we get for BETT interms of leaflets etc
<cbx33> LaserJock: sounds good
<RichEd> cbx33: I will be speaking to Chris Kenyon about budget.
<willvdl> LaserJock, cbx33: might be good idea to rename ESA to something more marketingy
<RichEd> We should be able to print our first eduction brochure for a test run at BETT
<cbx33> willvdl: that is the plan
<cbx33> ESA was our internal code name
<cbx33> RichEd: that would be awesome
<cbx33> I'll need that info asap
<cbx33> so I can dedicate time to ESA with will
<willvdl> cbx33 ++ & woot
<cbx33> unless you want Canonical to handle it
<RichEd> Can we do something meaninful with a double sided single page ?
<cbx33> directly
<cbx33> yes
<cbx33> though to me
<cbx33>  a trifold stands out more
<RichEd> We'd do a full mock up with text and layout flow.
<willvdl> current ubuntu leaflet is trifold
<cbx33> yeh trifold makes the best impression
<RichEd> And then Chris could run it though the design guys before a final commercial print.
<RichEd> I'd argue though, that given the short timing, we go for a once off test run for BETT.
<willvdl> cbx33 although we do have the templates that Chris and Christina worked on
<cbx33> true
<cbx33> well...you guys know more about marketting than I
<willvdl> (must get updated ones. note to self)
<cbx33> to me.....single sheet means....less effort spent
<willvdl> RichEd, we have a poster design too...
<nixternal> yay, sorry about that, emergency surgery had to be done on my truck before i left tongiht :)
<RichEd> yes ... cbx33 mentioned that
<nixternal> cbx33: i will be working more on the handbook post xmas
<willvdl> showed you in San Fran?
<RichEd> ah that may have been it.
<cbx33> nixternal: nice
<willvdl> nixternal: excellent. looking forward to seeing TBH in action
<RichEd> Pete: how many week days between new year and the show ?
<cbx33> not many
<cbx33> 10
<cbx33> i know it's tight
<RichEd> So probably not enough time for the whole formal multiple quotes & proof / approval cycle. I think we should expect to prepare as close to print ready as possible, and then we hava an ad hoc run.
<cbx33> agreed
<cbx33> I'm happy to produce copy etc..........
<willvdl> well we have decent existing work
<cbx33> but probably havn't got the softweare to produce proper print layouts
* RichEd nods ... to the good existing work ...
<RichEd> cbx33: there should eb ebough time for a final reassemble into print form
<cbx33> so just get it up to date
<cbx33> good good
<RichEd> should be enough
<cbx33> I'll make sure it's finished before Jan 1st
<cbx33> phew
<willvdl> ++
<cbx33> and then you guys can do what you will ;)
<RichEd> cbx33: I'm happy to work on that with you
<cbx33> RichEd: ++
<cbx33> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/EdubuntuSchoolAdvocacy
<cbx33> here is the WIP for comments suggestions
<cbx33> please read the current ESA and comment
<RichEd> I'll send comments tomorrow some time.
<cbx33> on missing parts
<cbx33> like SCP
<willvdl> which is on doc.ubuntu.com?
<cbx33> hmm
<cbx33> LaserJock: ?
<cbx33> should be
<cbx33> it's in the doc repo
<willvdl> it is
<cbx33> http://doc.ubuntu.com/edubuntu/school-advocacy/C/index.html
<willvdl> got access?
<LaserJock> yeah
<LaserJock> it's on there
<willvdl> woot
<cbx33> ok I just made a change to the wiki
<cbx33> with a new link directly to it
<cbx33> Can someone set us up a bzr tree?
<cbx33> or shall we use svn for now?
<LaserJock> well, if you have a team on LP it's right there
<cbx33> ok
<sbalneav> Somebody set up us the bzr bomb
<sbalneav> What you say?
<cbx33> heh
<cbx33> right docs covered?
<cbx33> I have to shoot fairly soon - would like to get Artwork in before I do
<willvdl> LaserJock, meaning an LP team can just create a bzr branch just like that?
<LaserJock> yeah
<LaserJock> access is limited to people who belong to the team
<LaserJock> write access that is
<willvdl> cool
<willvdl> lets move to artwork?
<cbx33> thanks
<cbx33> ok
<cbx33> well you've all seen the conecpt lisa came up with
<cbx33> thanks also to sbalneav for his idea about MOTD
<sbalneav> :)
<cbx33> we'd love some comments on that design
<cbx33> it is _only_ a concept at this stage
<cbx33> but we thought it fresh and bringing a new level of profressionalism to edubuntu
<willvdl> any comments on design? meaning it has a "school" look to it?
<cbx33> yes
<cbx33> and anything relaly
<cbx33> like it
<cbx33> hate it
<cbx33> heheh you decide
<willvdl> I guess usual question of applicability to tertiary ed springs to mind
<cbx33> yeh
<cbx33> anyone else.....we're going to come up with some more ideas/themes soon...
<cbx33> then post to mailing list
<cbx33> hopefully kick start some ideas off there
<willvdl> I guess we can get that debate going in artwork team circles
<LaserJock> mostly what I'd like to see is like 3-4 different themes for preschoo, elementary, and secondary/uni
<LaserJock> I can pick what I like but I'm horrible at making it up from scratch
<willvdl> then admin can apply theme...
<cbx33> LaserJock: that's the plan......remember last release we were just on person
<cbx33> s/on/one
<willvdl> and did good
<cbx33> thanks willvdl ;) - Lisa is happy ;)
<RichEd> anything else anyone ... we are coming up to pumpkin time ...
<cbx33> hehe
<highvoltage> well,
<highvoltage> I've been feeling lost the last bunch of months or so in terms of ubuntu contributions
<highvoltage> but recently I started learning more about debian-installer and ubiquity, and I'm learning a lot from colin
<cbx33> cool
<highvoltage> and really enjoying it.
<RichEd> colin ? colin watson ?
<willvdl> cjwatson
<ogra> RichEd, yes, he's looking for young blood for the installer :)
<RichEd> ahh ....
<cbx33> right you guys done with artwork ?
<cbx33> I'm gonna have to shoot
<cbx33> thanks for all the help guys
<cbx33> I'll do my best to sort out ldm/ESA and anything else I've said I'll do
<highvoltage> so possibly in future releases of ubuntu I could do some installer tweaks if needed
<willvdl> cbx33, great
<highvoltage> (sorry for strange delay, lost my connection there for a while)
<highvoltage> RichEd: yes
<highvoltage> goodnight guys!
<RichEd> highvoltage: it would be useful to keep rodarvus loosley in the installer loop
<cbx33> bye all
<willvdl> ciao
<RichEd> We may need some assistance with the Edubuntu on 2CDs ... ad-on .iso setup.
<highvoltage> ah yes.
<cjwatson> that's not really tightly related to the installer IMO
<cjwatson> CD image building, yes, but the explicit intent of the way we did that spec was to decouple it from installer considerations
<RichEd> cjwatson: but loosely, connected
<cjwatson> I actually don't see how
<cjwatson> we can discuss it later perhaps, I don't mean to derail your meeting, just a point of information
<highvoltage> cjwatson: our meeting pretty much just ended
<willvdl> thanks
<cjwatson> in any case my point is that implementing that spec doesn't require any installer modifications IMO
<highvoltage>  we can add it to the next meeting agenda, if needed.
<RichEd> acknowledged. Just terms of making the process smooth and seamless for a user, we want an integration of experience.
<ogra> RichEd, edubuntu ion 2Cds is rather about gnome-app-install integration
<ogra> and update-manager integration ...
<cjwatson> right, when I personally talk about the installer I very specifically mean initial install only, which is how the code is structured
<cjwatson> d-i and ubiquity
<ogra> right ...
* RichEd was thinking in more general terms about accompanying release / install notes ... and guidance for the user.
<cjwatson> ok, that's not so much what highvoltage has been looking at :)
<highvoltage> RichEd: perhaps table it as a documentation discussion in the next meeting
<RichEd> okay.
<cjwatson> anyway, I only saw this due to a nick highlight, so I'll go away again ;)
<RichEd> thanks ... for paying attention ... not for going away :)
<cjwatson> heh
<RichEd> Well in winding up ... for those of you who are not aware of it, there is a week's break for the company between Xmas and New Year.
<RichEd> So the meeting next week may be sparsely polulated.
<willvdl> cjwatson, that was me :)
<RichEd> *populated
<highvoltage> RichEd: noted.
<highvoltage> RichEd: would it perhaps be wise to postpone next weeks meeting?
<ogra> no, lets just skip it
<RichEd> highvoltage: next week won't be any formal meeting
<highvoltage> kind of what I meant :)
<RichEd> And so then in conclusion THANKS for a GOOD 2006 ...
<highvoltage> RichEd: ok, so if anyone wants to chat, they can? then they could just as well do it in #edubuntu :)
<ogra> yeah !
<highvoltage> :)
<willvdl> Agreed. You folks are fantastic
<RichEd> And looking forward to a big 2007 for Edubuntu.
<ogra> willvdl, you too ;)
<highvoltage> hear hear!
<RichEd> I hope everyone has some rest and relaxation over xmas.
<willvdl> I for one will be technically challenged for the week :)
<RichEd> If in doubt, leave the laptop / notebook at home when going out of the house.
<ogra> out ?
<ogra> hmm
<highvoltage> heh
<willvdl> unless your wife/GF has hers
<willvdl> then it's OK
* highvoltage is never more than 2m away from laptop
<RichEd> To bars. and places where Will get's technically challenged.
<highvoltage> (even when in the shower)
<RichEd> eat drink and be merry
<willvdl> 2 minutes or 2 meters?
<RichEd> and come back recharged in the new year.
<ogra> miles ?
<highvoltage> 2 meters
<willvdl> 2parking meters?
<highvoltage> willvdl: yes, 2 parking meters :)
<RichEd> going once ...
<willvdl> ok, getting silly cause it's late...
<RichEd> going twice ...
<RichEd> 2006 is now gone.
<ogra> yay
<highvoltage> sold to the man with the funny hat!
<RichEd> Thanks and goooodnight from me.
<ogra> night all
* RichEd takes the red hat off the old man forcibly
<highvoltage> night ogra and RichEd and willvdl and others who are lurking!
<willvdl> night
<willvdl> I'll do minutes again
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:Ubugtu] : Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 21 Dec 21:00 UTC: Ubuntu Development Team | 27 Dec 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 28 Dec 08:00 UTC: Ubuntu Development Team | 02 Jan 20:00 UTC: Technical Board | 03 Jan 20:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 03 Jan 22:00 UTC: Xubuntu
#ubuntu-meeting 2006-12-21
<BlueT_> .wi11
<BlueT_> ooops.. sorry
<sfllaw> @schedule
<Ubugtu> Schedule for Etc/UTC: 21 Dec 21:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 27 Dec 12:00: Edubuntu | 28 Dec 08:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 02 Jan 20:00: Technical Board | 03 Jan 20:00: Edubuntu | 03 Jan 22:00: Xubuntu
<Lure> @schedule Ljubljana
<Ubugtu> Schedule for Europe/Ljubljana: 21 Dec 22:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 27 Dec 13:00: Edubuntu | 28 Dec 09:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 02 Jan 21:00: Technical Board | 03 Jan 21:00: Edubuntu | 03 Jan 23:00: Xubuntu
<fabbione> @schedule Seattle
<fabbione> @schedule vancouver
<Ubugtu> Schedule for America/Vancouver: 21 Dec 13:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 27 Dec 04:00: Edubuntu | 28 Dec 00:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 02 Jan 12:00: Technical Board | 03 Jan 12:00: Edubuntu | 03 Jan 14:00: Xubuntu
<Burgwork> fabbione: are you in seattle?
<fabbione> Burgwork: yes
<Burgwork> fabbione: why so?
<fabbione> Burgwork: work
<Burgwork> ah
<sfllaw> @schedule montreal
<Ubugtu> Schedule for America/Montreal: 21 Dec 16:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 27 Dec 07:00: Edubuntu | 28 Dec 03:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 02 Jan 15:00: Technical Board | 03 Jan 15:00: Edubuntu | 03 Jan 17:00: Xubuntu
<sladen> we should really get seveas to add a relative time countdown
<Seveas> @now
<mc44> @now
<sladen> (T-9minutes)
<Seveas> heh
<mc44> bah
<Seveas> ubugtu is a bit flaky atm
<sladen> @now
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:Ubugtu] : Current meeting: Ubuntu Development Team | Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 27 Dec 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 28 Dec 08:00 UTC: Ubuntu Development Team | 02 Jan 20:00 UTC: Technical Board | 03 Jan 20:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 03 Jan 22:00 UTC: Xubuntu
<Ubugtu> Current time in Etc/UTC: December 21 2006, 20:51:58 - Current meeting: Ubuntu Development Team
<Spl4y> heno, ping
<cjwatson> hello folks
<cjwatson> who is not on holiday? :-)
<heno> hello
<zul> hi
<fabbione> me
<heno> Spl4y: Hi
<ogra> me
<BenC> hey Colin
<cjwatson> dholbach and pitti have sent updates
<cjwatson> heno: welcome back
<sfllaw> cjwatson: Hi!
<heno> cjwatson: thank you :)
<sfllaw> Please update your summaries on the DevelTeamMeeting20061221 page.
<cjwatson> iwj, doko, mvo?, mdz, Keybuk, Mithrandir, and IIRC seb128 are on holiday
<cjwatson> kylem: around?
<kylem> aye.
<seb128> cjwatson: nop, I'm not, tomorrow evening ;)
<cjwatson> seb128: aha
<fabbione> iwj, mdz, Keybuk and Mith are all in vac
<fabbione> yeah
<sfllaw> It could be a good, fast meeting.
<seb128> mvo is on holidays I think
<cjwatson> all right, let's get this over so we can go (back) to the pub and celebrate $HOLIDAY
<cjwatson> BenC: you're up
<BenC> :: Specs
<BenC> * driver-device-manager: Some progress (need to split out a spec for udev/kernel/modprobe changes)
<BenC> * driver-backports: NO PROGRESS (depends on udev/modprobe/kernel changes in driver-device-manager)
<BenC> * ubiquity-driver-updates: NO PROGRESS (depends on driver-backports).
<BenC> :: Work for past week
<BenC> * 2.6.20-pre is now default kernel
<BenC> * Merges: initramfs-tools (mucho breakage, but all fixed now), ndiswrapper, directfb
<BenC> * Worked on kernel changes for driver-device-manager
<BenC> * Kernel debugging of several issues, working with upstream to diagnose a few other issues.
<BenC> :: Work for next week
<BenC> * Play with the toys Santa brings me
<cjwatson> BenC: are you planning on doing all of the UI parts of driver-device-manager?
<BenC> cjwatson: Yeah, I actually have a lp project started for it
<cjwatson> BenC: we were thinking that it might make sense to have somebody who does that sort of thing more often help you out
<cjwatson> unless you already have somebody
<BenC> I have someone who sub'd to the spec who volunteered
<cjwatson> ah, good, that helps
<BenC> I need to do it at first to make sure my changes work
<cjwatson> ok, just try not to get sucked down a UI coding hole :-)
<cjwatson> (I know that feeling too well)
<BenC> I know the warning signs...I'll watch out for it :)
<cjwatson> anyone tested the 2.6.20 installation yet?
<cjwatson> I know I haven't had time
<fabbione> cjwatson: i did on sparc but without the super cool goodies
<BenC> cjwatson: Did all the udeb changes work out?
<fabbione> cjwatson: and it was ok
<ogra> hardlocks for me with the broadcom driver
<ogra> i'm waiting for the next upload
<BenC> ogra: I've been thinking about an initramfs-tools change to allow blacklisting on the kernel command line
<ogra> cool
<ogra> sounds like a great idea
<cjwatson> fabbione: all right, great
<cjwatson> BenC: all I know is that the build didn't fail :)
<BenC> cjwatson: always a plus :)
<fabbione> the patches applies.. it's ready for stable :P
<cjwatson> BenC: ok, thanks
<cjwatson> me next
<cjwatson> intel-mac-support: Will pick up hardware from Matthew Garrett soon.
<cjwatson> ubiquity-advanced-partitioner: I hope to get an extremely raw version that you can invoke with 'ubiquity --new-partitioner' merged and into the archive tomorrow.
<cjwatson> misc: Figuring out how to manage you lot. :-) Lots of time on the phone. I know I haven't talked to all my direct reports yet; I'll get round everyone in the new year. I've also been doing a lot of merges and chasing people about merges.
<cjwatson> we're down to 50-odd merges, most of which are X and will be superseded by a new upstream post-debian-import-freeze anyway
<cjwatson> so while I'd have much preferred to have those all merged, I'm not too worried
<cjwatson> syslinux is still pending and should probably get done; sysvinit, kernel-package, kernel-wedge are excepted
<cjwatson> xfce seems behind
<BenC> cjwatson: kernel-package just uploaded, kernel-wedge in about 5 minutes
<cjwatson> oh good
<cjwatson> does the kernel build with that?
<fabbione> BenC: feh.. i was hoping for a kernel before another breakage..
<doko> joining ...
<cjwatson> evening Matthias
<cjwatson> fabbione: your turn
<BenC> cjwatson: Changes were much more minimal that I had anticipated
<fabbione> feisty-toolchain: fixed gcc to build proper dwarf header required to have a working gdb on sparc. Theoretically all sparc binaries are affected by this bug and a full rebuild of feisty should be done. Davem is working on a workaround in gdb to be dropped in feisty+1. Uploaded a no-changes glibc for the above reason.
<fabbione> sparc64-installer: obppath kernel export is in Ben's queue. This will unleash tons of options to improve the overall silo.conf config when detecting extra OS'es. Userland has been worked out locally and pending a new kernel+d-i upload before hitting the archive. main-menu with the priority fix has been uploaded by cjwatson.
<fabbione> integrity-check: no changes since last week. This will need handover to somebody else asap.
<fabbione> spart64-niagara-ssl-accelerator: discussion with upstream is on going. upstream can't escape :)
<fabbione> ubuntu-feisty-ha-cluster: no changes since last week.
<fabbione> sparc-sprint (between david and me, outside the above specs stuff): fixed mono, made ubuntu-desktop installable again, added whole_disk sysfs attr for SUN partitions (pending in Ben's queue) + udev to avoid mount races (and FS corruption), installer tests unfortunately didn't happen yet because one of the buildd was offline and the queue was big (OOo, gcc, glibc) and it did start flushing again only a few hours back. The new silo-install
<fabbione> er changes can't be fully tested without the kernel (that I did ask Ben to wait to let the buildd flush the queue).
<fabbione> Next week:
<fabbione>  vacation/holidays.
<cjwatson> BenC: good-oh
<cjwatson> oh, yeah, forgot about sparc64-installer in my update
<fabbione> cjwatson: did you add the alias modules= for anna by any chance?
<fabbione> or do we still need anna-$cantremember=..
<cjwatson> fabbione: it's in preseed 1.23 upstream - just needs a sync
<cjwatson> anna/choose_modules= for now
<fabbione> cjwatson: ok thanks
<cjwatson> fabbione: syncing now
<fabbione> :)
<doko> fabbione: OOo was is dep-wait, so shouldn't be a delay
<fabbione> doko: it did build yesterday my time
<fabbione> doko: anyway it's over now
<cjwatson> we need to discuss feisty sparc etc., but I think after the break when everyone's back
<fabbione> and it was not a direct complain.. nothing to blame.. just a state of facts
<cjwatson> fabbione: thanks
<cjwatson> heno: next
<fabbione> cjwatson: welcome
<heno> Done:
<heno>  * access-gdm: Work with upstream seems to be comming together now. The latest Orca now works from GDM (and oBoard has for some time)
<heno>  * bug-triage: more on ubiquity. More tweaking of bug helper. I've been promised some XML bug data by the LP folks. I've written a super-simple guide for filing bugs with useful logs for Ubiquity here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DebuggingUbiquity/AttachingLogs Let me know if I should make similar pages for <your favorite large package>.
<heno>  * launchpad-bridge: Please put your favourite little LP bugs here https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DevelTeamLPWishList
<heno>  * iso-testing: making plans for getting wider involvement in ISO testing
<heno> To do:
<heno>  * Holiday break (but I'll probably add some bug triage to pass the time more quickly :) )
<cjwatson> heno: I don't think I replied to you about AttachingLogs, but one-line summary is that I don't think adding it to the crash dialog will help because my experience is that people don't really read it anyway; pitti's work on crash reporting is the future there. In the meantime it's an excellent thing to post in comments on underlogged bugs though
<cjwatson> thank you very much for your work on that so ffar
<heno> ok, and perhaps we can get some more custom info in Malone pages eventually
<cjwatson> far
<heno> np :)
<cjwatson> belatedly, dholbach updated the wiki page with his update, but here it is for the record (he didn't mail distro-team, just me apparently)
<cjwatson> Done
<cjwatson>  * GNOME 2.17.4
<cjwatson>  * Merges
<cjwatson>  * Bug Triage
<cjwatson>  * HUG DAY
<cjwatson> To do
<cjwatson>  * more Bug Triage
<cjwatson>  * REVUing
<cjwatson> Riddell: around?
<cjwatson> ETIMEDOUT
<cjwatson> kylem: next
<kylem> Done:
<kylem> Bit of a slow week for me due to illness,
<kylem>  * Reading about MIR criteria
<kylem>  * File liberror-perl MIR (git-core uninstallable in feisty)
<kylem>  * Reading about SRU
<kylem>  * Clean up of various tree lint from last few weeks
<kylem>  * Had setup a few test installs for -proposed kernels over weekend,
<kylem>    unfortunately sata disk died ~Monday. Recovered data and replaced
<kylem>    drive Wednesday, drive will be RMA'd so I have more room for some
<kylem>    test installs.
<kylem> Todo:
<kylem>  * Clear out my bug mailbox
<kylem>  * Email catch up
<kylem>  * Relax a bit
<kylem>  * Finish documentation about kernel-team bootstrap for wiki
<kylem>  * Add MODULE_FIRMWARE annotations to ubuntu/ drivers.
<cjwatson> I'd promote liberror-perl but pitti has been holidaying or something, the slacker ;-)
<BenC> kylem: Are you pushing to rookery yet?
<cjwatson> what's MODULE_FIRMWARE?
<kylem> BenC, still to ~/archives, not to /srv/kernel-team
<BenC> cjwatson: neato thing that allows modinfo to show firmware files the module needs
<kylem> cjwatson, an annotation so the firmware a module needs can be seen from modinfo
<kylem> was added to 2.6.19, but it's only a single line change.
<BenC> so initramfs-tools can make use of it
<kylem> aye aye.
<BenC> kylem: Please start pushing to rookery as soon as possible so I can keep your changes (especially to feisty) in sync
<cjwatson> right
<BenC> s/rookery/kernel-team/
<kylem> need to figure out a way of exposing which driver loaded which firmware, so we don't copy things needlessly when there are many possible firmwares.
<kylem> BenC, alrighty.
<BenC> kylem: thanks
<kylem> np
<cjwatson> ok, thanks Kyle
<cjwatson> doko: next
<doko> - openoffice.org: 2.1 for feisty (merges, upstream updates, adjust ubuntu patches for 2.1).
<doko> - java: first upload of sun-java6 (worked together with tmarble)
<doko> - other: chats, phone calls, looking for unanswered emails in 2006
<doko> - vacation (since Dec 19), until Dec 29.
<cjwatson> oh god, unanswered emails in 2006 would take me about a month :-(
<cjwatson> good luck with that
<doko> yeah, I started ... :-/
<cjwatson> thanks for sun-java6; I believe it's wedged in the 50-odd NEW backlog at the moment but at worst that will be cleared out post-Christmas
<fabbione> doko: expect sparc patches for java6
<cjwatson> I'll see if one of us can look it over before that
<doko> fabbione: ? it's binary only
<Mithrandir> regarding NEW stuff; if you ping me on IRC, I'll take a poke at it.
<fabbione> doko: more or less ;)
<cjwatson> Mithrandir: ping, sun-java6 :-)
<Mithrandir> but please don't do so for stuff which isn't blocking you.
<cjwatson> doko: thanks
<cjwatson> seb128: next
<seb128> Done:
<seb128>  GNOME 2.17.4
<seb128>  Debian merges
<seb128>  continue catching up with bugs, backlog around 350 now
<seb128> .
<seb128> Tomorrow:
<seb128>  clean up mails backlog before holidays
<seb128>  upload some packages from REVU
<seb128>  keep bug triaging and fixing
<cjwatson> (what's with nearly all of Keybuk's team being on holiday, anyway? Did I miss a memo?)
<ogra> showing off with utf-8 dots ... tsk ...
<seb128> ogra: tomboy did that automatically on <enter>
<ogra> heh
<seb128> I typed "*"
<ogra> nice feature then
<cjwatson> thanks for keeping up with the new GNOME
<seb128> cjwatson: my pleasure ;)
<cjwatson> so we're in GNOME UI freeze now?
<seb128> no
<ogra> i would hope not ... g-p-m still needs some tweaks
<seb128> that version is the start of "announce changes"
<cjwatson> ah, I misread
<seb128> UI freeze is jan 22th
<seb128> API freeze is jan 8th
<cjwatson> how does network-manager look upstream?
<doko> hmm, I don't want to push the move to python2.5 before jan 8th (given that the archive will be frozen before hurd 2 anyway)
<cjwatson> doko: that's GNOME API freeze not us
<seb128> cjwatson: well, only the applet is proposed for GNOME, I don't know lot about network-manager itself, that's an external depends (like hal) and Mithrandir is supposed to look at it
<cjwatson> right
<Mithrandir> I've merged the Debian package, but not gone through the bug list properly yet.
<cjwatson> seb128: thanks
<cjwatson> Mithrandir: which leads neatly to you, if you're around enough ...
<Mithrandir> cjwatson: I haven't prepared an update, but I can type one anyway.
<Mithrandir> last week: archive work, network-manager merge
<Mithrandir> specs: no real progress, I've begun poking at the NM source for the networkroaming spec.
<Mithrandir> I need to know the code base a little bit.
<Mithrandir> next week: more vacation.
<Mithrandir> but I'll be on IRC so if you need archive or buildd work done, prod me and I'll see what I can get done.
<Mithrandir> I won't "work" per se, but I'll certainly attend to my IRC client a little bit.
<Mithrandir> (done)
<cjwatson> I will also be intermittently on IRC, but I do intend to actually have a holiday
<cjwatson> as should the rest of you; this has been a busy year and we all deserve a thorough break
<cjwatson> </nag>
<cjwatson> OK, any other business?
<ogra> ?
<cjwatson> ogra: oh, I missed you
<sfllaw> Me?
<seb128> (I'll probably not be on IRC a lot but reading mail daily, if anything is required drop me a mail)
<cjwatson> and Till and Simon come to that
<cjwatson> I suck, sorry :) was going down wiki.canonical.com/DistroTeam and you guys are in a separate section
<ogra> pick one of us then :)
<cjwatson> ogra: next
<ogra> * last week:
<ogra>  - fixed ltsp merge bugs
<ogra>  - some work on edubuntu-network-auth-server (edsadmin is waiting in NEW)
<ogra>  - some work on ltsp-management-gui
<ogra>  - merges
<ogra> * next week (post christmas holiday):
<ogra>  - fix ltsp printserver with sbalneav's patches
<ogra>  - more work on edubuntu-network-auth-server
<ogra>  - more ltsp-management gui
<ogra>  - gnome-screensaver fixes
<ogra>  - power-manager bugs
<ogra> * approved specs:
<ogra>  - ltsp-fat-clients -no further work
<ogra>  - edubuntu-network-auth-server - started, slow progress
<ogra>  - edubuntu-network-auth-client - not started
<ogra>  - edgy-plusone-thinclient-sound - started
<ogra>  - ltsp-management-gui - started
<ogra>  - student-control-panel-upgrade - not started (development meeting held today)
<ogra>  - edubuntu-on-two-cds - not started
<ogra>  - ltsp-persistent-home - ... sbalneav (still waiting for code review)
<ogra>  - not to forget i introduced this wonderful gnome-screensaver bug that prevents you from unlocking :(
<cjwatson> ogra: obviously recent management changes mean I'm unlikely to be able to do the cdimage hacking for edubuntu-on-two-cds, but I'm happy to review a diff
<seb128> ogra: do you need some help on the gnome-screensaver breakage?
<ogra> seb128, upstrteam gave me a patch that doesnt apply but seems to solve the issue
<seb128> ok, good
<ogra> i'll handwave it in tonight or tomorrow morning
<seb128> let me know if you need some help with that tomorrow
<ogra> cjwatson, i'll do my best, i wanted to look closer at debian-cd anyway
<ogra> seb128, i guess i'm fine if the patch does what upstream thinks ...
<cjwatson> the thing to note is that we deliberately patched out the code to build multiple CDs because it never applied to Ubuntu
<seb128> ok
<cjwatson> so you're going to have to come up with some kind of evil fudge
<cjwatson> I'm also happy to assist with seed layout design, which is pretty much my territory :)
<Mithrandir> mmm, evil chocolate fudge.
<ogra> well, i dont want a multicd setup anyway
<cjwatson> that's what this is
<cjwatson> it's just a slightly unusual kind of multi-CD setup
<ogra> so probably something outside of debian-cd would be more appropriate
<cjwatson> no, this must be in debian-cd
<cjwatson> we will not maintain multiple CD image building frameworks
<ogra> hmm, k
<cjwatson> anyway, we can discuss it after the break :)
<ogra> yep
<cjwatson> ogra: thanks
<cjwatson> sfllaw: next
<sfllaw> Done:
<sfllaw>  * Wiki documentation
<sfllaw>  * Bug triaging
<sfllaw>  * Hug day (signed up tons of people)
<sfllaw>  * Contracts sent to interns
<sfllaw>  * SRUs: vino, openoffice.org, gnome-control-center
<sfllaw> To do:
<sfllaw>  * Bug triage
<sfllaw>  * SRU: gnome-nettool, synaptic
<sfllaw>  * Test planning for
<sfllaw>  * Holiday
<seb128> speaking about SRU, could anybody approve the bug #73115 upload to edgy-updates so upstream will stop to get duplicates for that crasher before the holidays and not after? ;)
<Ubugtu> Malone bug 73115 in control-center "theme manager crash on theme installation" [Unknown,Fix released]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/73115
<cjwatson> sfllaw: how many interns have we got?
<sfllaw> Three.
<sfllaw> Two will work with me on bug triaging.
<sfllaw> One will work with cr3 on writing test cases for our testing framework.
<cjwatson> seb128: looking now
<seb128> cjwatson: thank you
<cjwatson> sfllaw: ok, please keep me posted on the effect that has on our bug situation
<sfllaw> Will do.
<cjwatson> sfllaw: thanks
<cjwatson> tkamppeter: next
<seb128> sfllaw: if you want to assign one on desktop bug triage we can work with him, let we know ;)
<tkamppeter> Done
<tkamppeter>  * Updated foomatic-db to state of Dec 19: More options for Brother printers (http://forums.freestandards.org/read.php?24,106), marked "drv_z42" obsolete (bug 59324), Samsung ML-1610 does not support PostScript, many device IDs contributed by Red Hat
<tkamppeter>  * Updated gutenprint for Debian merge and to add support for Lexmark X73 and Compaq IJ1200 (bug 59324)
<tkamppeter>  * Updated hplip for Debian merge
<Ubugtu> Malone bug 59324 in foomatic-db "Cups filters are not bundled with Ubuntu altough the PPD are present" [Medium,In progress]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/59324
<tkamppeter>  * Updated foo2zjs to delete old Debian rules when updating, Edgy update of foo2zjs got approved (bug 65618)
<Ubugtu> Malone bug 65618 in foo2zjs "Firmware upload to LJ 1000/1005/1008/1020 broken (fix to be proposed as Edgy update)" [Medium,In progress]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/65618
<tkamppeter>  * Submitted Splix (driver for Samsung bw and color laser printers) for introduction into Ubuntu (bug 59829, bug 44407, bug 63802)
<Ubugtu> Malone bug 59829 in foomatic-db "No driver for Samsung ML-1610 printer" [Medium,Fix released]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/59829
<Ubugtu> Malone bug 44407 in splix "Samsung clp510 not working" [Medium,Fix released]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/44407
<tkamppeter>  * Answered to bug reports
<Ubugtu> Malone bug 63802 in cupsys "[Edgy]  unable to install printer Samsung CLP 510" [Medium,Needs info]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/63802
<cjwatson> seb128: done
<seb128> cjwatson: excellent, thank you
<tkamppeter> Next weeks: I will disappear for some time do to holidays and moving (around Jan 10). In the mean time I will sometimes look into my e-mail.
<cjwatson> thanks for the merges; those were our main focus up until today
<doko> tkamppeter: where are you moving?
<cjwatson> tkamppeter: have you told mdz about your holidays/moving already?
<tkamppeter> np, and the nicest christmas present from me will go to the users of all Brother laser printers by my foomatic-db update: 2400x600 dpi, economode, duplex, trays, ...
<tkamppeter> cjwatson, I have told him by e-mail
<tkamppeter> doko, to Portugal
<cjwatson> ok, great, I don't need to worry about that admin work then
<tkamppeter> I have also informed the secretaries
<cjwatson> thank you
<doko> tkamppeter: nice
<ogra> thats nice :)
<cjwatson> all right, I think that's really everyone now
<cjwatson> any other business, once again?
<zul> no
<tkamppeter> There can be a second christmas present by me, for all users of not too old Samasung bw and color lasers, if someone moves in SpliX from NEW ...
<cjwatson> tkamppeter: it probably won't reach main until the new year; new packages in main do need a security review etc.
<cjwatson> but it may happen to sneak into universe before then
<Mithrandir> cjwatson: I've said I'd review it.
<cjwatson> Mithrandir: thanks
<cjwatson> I cleared out about half of NEW today but have had no time for new source packages
<cjwatson> (they require actual thought)
<tkamppeter> I have already prepared the request to move it from Universe to Main. I will submit it as soon as I see SpliX in Universe.
<Mithrandir> yeah, binary new is usually trivial.
<Mithrandir> tkamppeter: probably not tonight, maybe tomorrow.  Just too much other stuff happening now.
<cjwatson> ok, adjourned
<fabbione> thanks guys.. cya
<tkamppeter> OK
<cjwatson> thanks everyone for a fantastic year, and have good holidays
<ogra> you too
<cjwatson> I'll be around tomorrow morning; after that, see you in 2007
<tkamppeter> binary new package without source?
<seb128> cjwatson: thank you, enjoy your holidays too!
<cjwatson> source and binary are separate stages in new processing
<tkamppeter> So source is approved at first and then build for all architectures is done and on success binary is approved?
<cjwatson> yes
#ubuntu-meeting 2006-12-22
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:Ubugtu] : Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 27 Dec 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 28 Dec 08:00 UTC: Ubuntu Development Team | 02 Jan 20:00 UTC: Technical Board | 03 Jan 20:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 03 Jan 22:00 UTC: Xubuntu | 04 Jan 16:00 UTC: Ubuntu Development Team
* Starting logfile irclogs/ubuntu-meeting.log
<ryanakca> odd, I never rejoined the channel after the netsplit a couple of hours ago
<freefal67> hello?
<freefal67> ignore
<nixternal> @schedule chicago
<Ubugtu> Schedule for America/Chicago: 27 Dec 06:00: Edubuntu | 28 Dec 02:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 02 Jan 14:00: Technical Board | 03 Jan 14:00: Edubuntu | 03 Jan 16:00: Xubuntu | 04 Jan 10:00: Ubuntu Development Team
<poningru> can someone blog about the ubuntu christmas cards?
#ubuntu-meeting 2006-12-23
<tonyyarusso> fabbione: ping
<fabbione> tonyyarusso: pong'ish
<tonyyarusso> fabbione: At the recent mtg of the IRC ops team, we decided to make #ubuntu-ops a public channel, and would like it added to ubuntulog.
<fabbione> tonyyarusso: i know.
<fabbione> there is a bug open for that
<tonyyarusso> Ah, wonderful.
<fabbione> and i will do it when i am back from vacation
<tonyyarusso> (/me just read e-mail, one of which said 'poke fabbione')
<tonyyarusso> Sounds like a plan, thanks.
<fabbione> i just arrived home after 18 hours flight.. and i am not going to play around
<fabbione> plus..i am in holidays
<tonyyarusso> A perfectly good reason.  I just got back home after 18 hours driving myself.
#ubuntu-meeting 2007-12-17
<kraut> moin
* ubotu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 18 Dec 15:00 UTC: Server Team meeting | 20 Dec 14:00 UTC: Desktop Team Development | 21 Dec 12:00 UTC: MOTU meeting
<livingdaylight> Greetings Ubunteros!
#ubuntu-meeting 2007-12-18
<nealmcb> @schedule denver
<ubotu> Schedule for America/Denver: 18 Dec 08:00: Server Team meeting | 20 Dec 07:00: Desktop Team Development | 21 Dec 05:00: MOTU meeting
<kraut> moin
* ubotu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Current meeting: Server Team meeting Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 20 Dec 14:00 UTC: Desktop Team Development | 21 Dec 12:00 UTC: MOTU meeting
* ubotu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 20 Dec 14:00 UTC: Desktop Team Development | 21 Dec 12:00 UTC: MOTU meeting
<soren> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 16:00. The chair is soren.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<soren> Welcome to the Ubuntu Server community meeting.
<soren> First: Introduction round:
<soren> I'm Soren. I work for Canonical on the server team.
<soren> Mathiaz in hiking around in Laos. dendrobates is busy.
<soren> Tough crowd...
<pygi> :P
<sommer> hey soren
<soren> Am I the only one here?
<pygi> no, I am here
<pygi> do we also have to introduce? :)
<soren> That was the plan.
<pygi> I'm Mario, I'm an upstream developer for various projects
<pygi> most notable of them probably being Libburnia project
<nijaba> hello
<sommer> I'm Adam Sommer so far working moslty on the Server Guide documentation
 * nijaba thinks that sommer does a great job at it
<soren> nijaba, jdstrand: We're just introducing ourselves...
<jdstrand> ah
<sommer> nijaba: thx man
<pygi> oh yes, I also wrote the Edubuntu Handbook :P
<sommer> we were just doing some intros
<nijaba> So I'm Nick Barcet, Ubuntu Server product manager
<jdstrand> I am Jamie Strandboge and am an Ubuntu Security Engineer.  I help with Ubuntu Server wherever I can
<soren> Ok, I think that's everyone?
<pygi> yup, seems so
<soren> Agenda is at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/Meeting
<soren> [TOPIC] Review ACTION points from previous meeting.
<MootBot> New Topic:  Review ACTION points from previous meeting.
<soren> Meeting log:
<soren> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/Server/20071211
<zul> hey
<soren> ACTION: nijaba will revise the minimum requirements to include tasksel tasks
<soren> Hi, zul.
<nijaba> done
 * soren hugs nijaba 
<soren> That's it, it seems :)
 * nijaba blushes
<soren> [TOPIC] Review each section of the ServerTeam/Roadmap.
<MootBot> New Topic:  Review each section of the ServerTeam/Roadmap.
<soren> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/Roadmap
<soren> For your clicky-clicky pleasure..
<soren> Triage openldap bugs
<soren> I've not looked this one bit, I'm afraid. Anyone?
<soren> No? I blame the holidays.
<soren> Triage samba bugs
<soren> Same.. :(
<soren> mathiaz is our master bug triager :)
<sommer> it does seem like things have slowed down... is that normal for this time of year
 * nijaba think that thaÃ¯land should be forbidden to ubuntu devs
<soren> ..and Laos.
<soren> :)
<jdstrand> sommer: kees and I triaged a couple CVEs ;)
 * soren ^5s jdstrand
<nijaba> And I triagged a few JeOS issues
 * soren hugs nijaba again
<jdstrand> (that was actual meant for soren -- little to quick on the tab)
<jdstrand> s/to/too/
<soren> Ok, let's just leave those two items there, shall we?
<soren> Packager corner
<soren> Merge packages from Debian
 * jdstrand wonders how long he can blame his keyboard for his typing skills...
<soren> I think we managed to get to the bottom of these.
<soren> jdstrand: :)
<soren> Improve apache package
<soren> Not assigned to anyone..
<jdstrand> as soren knows, he reviewed and uploaded the libnss-ldap and libpam-ldap merges of mine
<soren> jdstrand: Sure did. :)
<soren> Has anyone looked at "Default ssl configuration for apache"?
 * nijaba thinks it is his turn to hug someone... soren and jdstrand maybe ?
<soren> :)
 * jdstrand always welcomes a hug, and hugs nijaba back :)
<soren> It seems not. Any takers?
<soren> (The "Default ssl configuration for apache" thing. Not the hugs)
<jdstrand> soren: there was a gutsy goal for bug #135624
<ubotu> Launchpad bug 135624 in php5 "libapache2-mod-php5 should provide LAMP test page" [Low,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/135624
<soren> jdstrand: Did that involve ssl?
<sommer> so apache is going to inlcude ssl or will it be a seperate apache-ssl package?
<pygi> separate package, being pulled automatically is the way to go me things =)
<soren> sommer: apache-ssl is a completely different thing.
<nijaba> the main problem is that the script to generate the certificates is missing it seems
 * pygi hides
<jdstrand> soren: heh.  uh, no...
<soren> nijaba: It's there. It's in ssl-cert.
 * jdstrand stops 'oh-ohing' and puts his hand down
<pygi> nijaba: because we used to have the script before, today you have to do it manually
<pygi> with openssl thingy
<soren> pygi: It's in ssl-cert?
<pygi> no idea, I didnt check
<pygi> but by default, it's not there :p
<soren> $ dpkg -L ssl-cert | grep make-ssl-cert
<soren> /usr/sbin/make-ssl-cert
<nijaba> soren: it used to be in path, so it was easy
<soren> /usr/sbin is in $PATH
<sommer> doesn't ssl-cert generate the snake-oil cert and key?
<soren> sommer: Yes.
<sommer> gotcha, is the plan to use that for apache?
<soren> sommer: I'd sure assume so.
<nijaba> I am talking about apache2-ssl-certificate which used to be there and is still referenced in a few docs
<soren> That's the right thing to do if you're not using proper certificates.
<soren> nijaba: Ok. We should fix the docs then.
<soren> nijaba: ..and make it all easier. I do remember it being quite a bit more tricky than necessary.
<nijaba> soren: fine with me
<soren> sommer: Will you look into this?
<sommer> soren: sure
<soren> sommer: You can try to document it, and I can do any code changes if you find something that should be obviously better.
<nijaba> I would recommend adding a "apache2-ssl-certificate" page to the wiki that points to the new up to date procedure
<sommer> I don't think the apache2-ssl-certificate is mentioned in the "official" docs, but I seem to remember it's in the wiki
<soren> [ACTION]: sommer will look into documenting how to set up apache with ssl
<MootBot> ACTION received: : sommer will look into documenting how to set up apache with ssl
<soren> Ok, next item..
<soren> "Notify need to restart apache2 when installing a new module"
<soren> I belive I contested this last time.
<nijaba> google 'apache2-ssl-certificate site:help.ubuntu.com'
<soren> Which modules require a restart and don't do it?
<soren> Yes, that's the answer I got last time, too.
<sommer> nijaba: cool not too many
<nijaba> sommer: still think that we should have a wiki explaining the change and the correct procedure
<soren> Does anyone object to removing that item from the Roadmap? I've not seen any evidence that this issue exists?
<sommer> nijaba: yep, I'll create a page and link it to the main apache article
<sommer> soren: no problem with me... I'd think there'd be more bugs related to the issue.
<soren> sommer: If you see any, could you send me the link at some point?
<sommer> sure
<soren> Thanks.
 * jdstrand tentatively raises his hand, and asks soren if we can talk about bug #135624
<soren> Ok, moving right along..
<ubotu> Launchpad bug 135624 in php5 "libapache2-mod-php5 should provide LAMP test page" [Low,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/135624
<soren> Um... Well, yes, I guess it's sort of related.
<jdstrand> it is related in that its LAMP
<jdstrand> it was something that was supposed to get into gutsy, but didn't
<soren> jdstrand: Right. What has Debian said about it?
<soren> Nothing, it seems. :(
<jdstrand> nothing-- a debdiff has been languishing in the BTS
<jdstrand> since it doesn't look like we will get it for free, maybe it should be added to the Roadmap
<jdstrand> the debdiff is easy-- there is one in the LP bug too
<soren> jdstrand: We've got both apache and php maintainers on staff. You should poke someone. :)
 * jdstrand goes off poking...
<jdstrand> soren: should it be added to the Roadmap?
<soren> jdstrand: We could do that.
<jdstrand> (not the poking-- the task)
<soren> :) Sure.
<soren> I'll do that when we're done here.
<jdstrand> I think it'd be a good idea so it won't be forgotten
<jdstrand> soren: thanks! :)
<soren> Ok. Next item: "Improve mysql package upgrade"
<soren> Who added this?
<sommer> mathiaz I think
<soren> Does anyone what the issue is?
<sommer> wasn't there something during UDS about that?
<soren> Insert "know" where appropriate.
<soren> sommer: If there were, I forgot.
<kraut> schedule @berlin
<sommer> ya, I seem to remember some discussion about it... my not have been at UDS though
<sommer> maybe there was a bug?
<soren> Ok.. If noone knows what it's about, let's skip it for now.
<soren> I can't spot it.
<nijaba> soren: please do skip^
<soren> Next item: "Improve php modules packages"
<soren> The issue being that newly installed php modules should cause a restart of apache.
<soren> ivoks was supposed to be working on ditching libapache2-mod-php5, so it becomes a php problem rather than an apache problem.
<soren> ...and it that case, I don't think it'll be much of a point of discussion. The problem so far has been that php should unconditionally restart apache as it wasn't sure that apache was even using php.
<soren> shouldn't unconditionally...
<soren> Man, typing *is* hard.
<soren> Hmm... The ditching libapache2-mod-php5 should be on the roadmap, too.
<nijaba> I agreed that it should be suggested, not forces
<soren> or "instead" rather.
<soren> nijaba: What should?
<nijaba> reloading of apache
<soren> nijaba: Right. When we ditch mod-php5, it seizes to be an issue.
<soren> Anything else about this?
<soren> Ok, next item: "Integration of Dovecot SASL and Postfix"
<soren> I've been discussing this with ivoks a bit, but I'm not sure how far along he's come.
<nijaba> soren: didn't I saw diffs he proposed?
<soren> nijaba: Yes, but they were rejected.
<soren> nijaba: By me.
<soren> :)
<soren> I'll make a note of poking ivoks about it when he shows up again.
<nijaba> soren: right...  so since he his not around today, let's skip
<soren> The next few items, I'm not sure about.
<soren> "Update Ubuntu ServerTeam wiki pages"
<soren> Mathiaz is the assignee. I don't know the status, I'm afraid.
<soren> (Holidays are annoying)
<soren> "Write a How-To for Drupal on Ubuntu"
<soren> JimTarvid around?
<soren> Guess not.
<sommer> soren: I haven't seen him since the 2nd or 3rd meeting
<soren> Ah.
<soren> Next: "Track pages on help.ubuntu.com that need to be updated"
<soren> sommer: status?
<sommer> haven't concentrated on that one too much lately
<soren> sommer: Fair enough.
<sommer> there's a list of Samba pages that need cleaned up
<sommer> there's a lot of duplication, and I wasn't sure the best route to take
<soren> Something you need/want to discuss here?
<sommer> I'd hate to remove a page and get into some kind of flame war about it
<sommer> probably not a big deal, but some of the pages are rather long
<soren> I say to aim for quality rather than quantity.  A lot of crap is still crap.
<sommer> totally agree, I'll try to focus some on that this week
<nijaba> +1
<soren> sommer: If you're completely rewriting, just move the old page to somewhere else (Blah/Old).
<soren> sommer: Great!
<sommer> soren: good idea will do.
<soren> Next: "Update Server-Related Ubotu Factoids"
<soren> Did these get poked into ubotu yet?
<soren> ..some at least did.
<sommer> I think nealmcb was testing them the other day
<soren> Ok. Does anyone have any input about this in nealmcb's absence?
<soren> Guess not.
<soren> "Review ServerGuide for Hardy"
<nijaba> sommer is doing a great job at it
<soren> Wonderful!
<soren> sommer: Do you want to talk about it?
<soren> sommer: It's fine if not.
<sommer> sure, I was wondering if anyone could test the Backups section
<nijaba> I take it
<sommer> I sent a message to the server ml, but haven't had much of a response so far
 * sommer no longer has a tape drive
 * soren neither :(
<nijaba> Will ask elmo to take a look as well
<sommer> nijaba: cool, I added an archive rotation section that I think covers your previous suggestions
<sommer> nijaba: I sent him an email as well, because I wasn't sure if he was on the server ml
<nijaba> not sure he is either
<sommer> really no rush at this point
<sommer> I'm also working on an eBox section, but wasn't sure of the status of it for Hardy?
<nijaba> I think soren said that he will check with updstream in jan.
<soren> sommer: I'm not really the one doing the work on it this time around. It's been "outsourced" to the eBox developers (upstream, I mean).
<soren> I'll be keeping an eye on it, though.
<sommer> that's cool, I started a wiki page on help.u.c
<soren> sommer: eBox has a lot of documentation of its own, though.
<soren> sommer: Good stuff, afair.
<sommer> ya, I'm working through it trying to document what's done so fare in Gutsy
<soren> Both developer, user, and installation guides.
<nijaba> soren: anything on developing specific plugin?
<nijaba> cool thankt
<nijaba> cool thanks
<soren> nijaba: :)
<soren> sommer: I honestly wouldn't bother.
<soren> sommer: The eBox stuff in gutsy is not worth mentioning. Quite the contrary, actually.
<sommer> heh... also for my own learning... thinking about deploying it at work
<sommer> with hardy that is
<soren> sommer: If you do, don't bother with the Ubuntu packages :)
<soren> sommer: Ah, ok.
<nijaba> soren: you mean, for gutsy?
<soren> nijaba: Yes.
<soren> Ok, moving on...
<soren> "Create Server GUI Wiki Page"
<sommer> still on my todo list
<soren> Ok.
<sommer> but if anyone else wants to start thats cool... heh
<soren> :)
<soren> Next: "Integrate AppArmor into Ubuntu"
<soren> That's done, surely?
<soren> It's installed by default even in gutsy.. Why is it on the roadmap?
<nijaba> odd...  I guess it meant additional profiles
<sommer> I also added an AppArmor section to the Server Guide.
<soren> Possibly. I'll ask mathiaz to update it.
<soren> sommer: Cool!
<soren> "Simplify storage management (RAID1 - LVM-on-RAID) during installation"
<soren> ivoks is not here, so we'll skip.
<jdstrand> soren: I believe it is, at least in part, getting more profiles
<soren> jdstrand: Ok, cool.
<jdstrand> (that was for apparmor)
<soren> [TOPIC] ruby-on-rails (What is the status of this?)
<MootBot> New Topic:  ruby-on-rails (What is the status of this?)
<soren> Anyone?
<nijaba> ...
<sommer> I think dendrobates was going to check up on it... from the last meeting
 * nijaba grumbles about christmas
<soren> Yeah, and he's not here, so we lose :)
<soren> Moving right along..
<soren> [TOPIC] JeOS tutorial (shall we redirect users from wiki to linuxtoday.com ?)
<MootBot> New Topic:  JeOS tutorial (shall we redirect users from wiki to linuxtoday.com ?)
<soren> nijaba: Go!
<nijaba> The editor from linuxtoday.com do not want to publish our JeOS tutorial if it is published on our wiki.
<nijaba> A possible compromise would be to mofify our wiki so that it points to the rest of the article on linuxtoday.com for the 90days it will be published there.
<nijaba> We feel awkward about this and would love to have your opinion.
<nijaba> On one hand it would increase the visibility of JeOS a bit
<nijaba> On the other hand it would prevent us from editing (improve) it for a while.
<nijaba> What do you think?
<sommer> so the article is redirected for 90 days then replaced after their article is taken down?
<nijaba> yes, that's the idea
<sommer> doesn't seem too big a deal to me
<nijaba> any other comments?
 * sommer votes to do it... seems like it will help in marketing and stuff
<jdstrand> I would think we would want to be able to edit it, as this would put us into March, and hardy releases in april.  we want testers and the docs need to be up to date
<jdstrand> we could of course have updates point somewhere else, but it is a concern
<jdstrand> generally
<nijaba> jdstrand: what about putting it in bzr for the time?
 * jdstrand thinks he didn't phrase any of that particularly well, but hopes his point got across anyway
<soren> nijaba: That's an option.
<jdstrand> nijaba: I have no problem with that, but prospective users/testers will need to be able to easily find it
<sommer> how is Jeos going to be documented long term?
<nijaba> improving that tuto?
<sommer> is the documentation going to always be in the wiki or is something planned for the docbook docs?
<jdstrand> nijaba: can the wiki page that points to the tutorial have an errata section (or something)?
<jdstrand> nijaba: at least a pointer to it?
<nijaba> sommer: sure, I don't think that would be a problem
<soren> sommer: I don't think we talked about it, really.
<soren> jdstrand: That sounds sensible.
<sommer> gotcha, I'm not even sure where it would fit, but just wondering
<jdstrand> nijaba: I'd also like to point out that I am all for getting the information out there-- just want to make sure our testing doesn't suffer
<nijaba> so I'll propose the editor that we have a redirection + an errata section there.
<jdstrand> (and testers ;)
<soren> jdstrand: That was one of my concerns as well. Replacing the wiki page with a link to linuxtoday and errata and then put the one for hardy in bzr for 90 days?
<soren> Is that what we're doing?
<nijaba> soren: is the future of JeOS, ubuntu-vm-builder, or will we still maintain a separate iso?
<nijaba> soren: yes
<soren> Still a separate ISO, I would think
<soren> [AGREED] Replace the Jeos tutorial wiki page with a link to linuxtoday and errata and then put the one for hardy in bzr for 90 days?
<MootBot> AGREED received:  Replace the Jeos tutorial wiki page with a link to linuxtoday and errata and then put the one for hardy in bzr for 90 days?
<jdstrand> soren: I think that sounds reasonable
<soren> jdstrand: It has to be reasonable. I told MootBot we agreed on it.
<nijaba> sommer: could you create the place holder in bzr?  I'll update the wiki in due time
<jdstrand> soren: haha-- you just typed faster than I
 * jdstrand is trying to type more carefully after all
<sommer> nijaba: sure
<soren> Ok, Last item:
<soren> [TOPIC] Agree on next meeting date and time.
<MootBot> New Topic:  Agree on next meeting date and time.
<nijaba> thanks...  my bzr skills are still not perfect and I don't even know if I have the right to do the add.
<soren> I intend to at least pretend to not be working next week.
<soren> nijaba: Everyone can create branches for every project on Launchpad.
<nijaba> I'll be there until Wednesday....  then off to kenya for 12 days (until the 6th)
<sommer> ^^ I think that may be a better approach
<soren> I also think January 1st is going to be difficult.
<sommer> nijaba: a seperate bzr branch for the article I mean
<nijaba> sommer: right
<nijaba> this I know how to do
<soren> So next meeting on January 8th? That's quite a while, but then again, not much is going to happen in between.
<nijaba> soren: I don't think that we have much choice...
<sommer> soren: sounds good to me
<soren> Cool.
<jdstrand> soren: me too
<soren> [AGREED] Next meeting January 8th, same time same channel.
<MootBot> AGREED received:  Next meeting January 8th, same time same channel.
<soren> Any other business?
<soren> Going once...
<soren> twice....
<soren> thrice! Meeting adjourned
<soren> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 17:07.
<sommer> cool thanks all
<nijaba> Have a good one, everyone...  Adam: party on...
<sommer> heh... party!
<jdstrand> thanks soren!
<sabdfl> hi all
<mdz> hi
 * slangasek waves
<mdz> mjg59,Keybuk: ping
<mdz> I think Keybuk is without network until tomorrow
<evand> hi
<sabdfl> hey evand, slangasek
<sabdfl> lamont: ping?
<mjg59> Hi
<lamont> sabdfl: ack
 * keescook waves too
 * somerville32 waves as well.
<mdz> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 20:04. The chair is mdz.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<mdz> [TOPIC] ubuntu-core-dev application by Steve Langasek
<MootBot> New Topic:  ubuntu-core-dev application by Steve Langasek
<slangasek> ===============================================
<mdz> [LINK] https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/motu-council/2007-December/000615.html
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/motu-council/2007-December/000615.html
<sabdfl> +1!
 * mdz glares at sabdfl
<slangasek> (oops, sorry, will try to lean on my mouse in a different channel)
<mdz> slangasek: I thought you were providing a convenient visual separator for the meeting log
<keescook> slangasek: it was a good topic separator.  ;)
<sabdfl> i thought it was a reflection of the looooong pause
<sabdfl> till i stated the obvious ;-)
<mdz> [link] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SteveLangasek
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SteveLangasek
 * sabdfl will curb enthusiasm in favour of a modulated approach before others, too, state the obvious
<mdz> sabdfl: given that mjg59 and I both know slangasek reasonably well from Debian, perhaps you should lead the discussion :-)
<sabdfl> slangasek: what are your thoughts on keybuk's proposal to merge main and universe?
<slangasek> sabdfl: I share the concerns Martin Pitt raised about the difficulty in keeping control of build-dependencies if there's no longer a separation at the apt level preventing wrong packages pulled in on the buildds
<sabdfl> agreed, and there are also social consequences if we make build/install dependencies mean more than just exactly what they say
<slangasek> and I think the concerns you just raised is also valid, though it wasn't one that had occurred to me
<slangasek> s/concerns/concern/
<sabdfl> could you comment further on the difference between -core-dev and -motu?
<mdz> I want to find a way to make it work, but I'm a bit discouraged at all the holes we'd need to patch
<sabdfl> there's definitely a nice element to having the people who care about a set of packages, say who gets to upload them
<slangasek> hmm, I think the separation between -core-dev and -motu is a valuable one for a number of reasons.  Historically, Debian has only had one level of contributor, full DDs, which gave upload rights to everything; this had the effect of setting a very high bar for any contributions.  In comparison, MOTU is a useful way not of /excluding/ people from contributing to main, but of /including/ them as contributors to universe
<mdz> interestingly, Debian has recently invented another level of contributor
<sabdfl> what's that?
<mdz> Debian Maintainer
<mdz> [link] http://www.debian.org/vote/2007/vote_003
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://www.debian.org/vote/2007/vote_003
<slangasek> so certainly, any plan that reorganizes the main/universe split should keep in mind the importance of privilege separation in allowing contributors to bootstrap their way into the community
<mdz> slangasek: based on your experience in the process, do you have any thoughts about how we might improve either the process or the team structure itself?
<sabdfl> neat
<slangasek> mdz: by "process" you mean the process of becoming MOTU/core-dev?
<mdz> slangasek: specifically, yes, and the general process of getting involved in the project
<mdz> working at Canonical, you've had a leg up on most folks who go through it because you have daily contact with a lot of other folks involved in the project, but I'm always interested in feedback about what it's like and how we can make things easier for those interested in contributing
<slangasek> right; getting involved came easily for me, not just because it's part of my job but also because IRC is a natural medium for me
<slangasek> so dropping into #ubuntu-motu and finding my way around was not hard at all
<slangasek> I don't know how it would be for someone trying to approach the project on an email-and-forums-only basis
<mdz> I wonder if the pervasiveness of IRC in Ubuntu is limiting for those who are not used to it
<slangasek> I'm not sure how solvable that problem is - email is always more formal and higher latency than IRC
<sabdfl> are there many big decisions that are taken exclusively through irc?
<slangasek> not that I've seen
<mdz> there's no introductory document which says "lots happens on IRC, it's important to be there"
<mdz> just "hey, there's an IRC server, check it out"
<mdz> sabdfl: it's not so much that as that the day-to-day heartbeat happens there
<mdz> how people know you're alive and can talk to you
<sabdfl> the uds framework is still really good for folks working to a longer timescale
<sabdfl> +1 from me, again :-)
<mdz> but someone who turned up at UDS and then didn't follow IRC or -changes or such after that would be lost
<mdz> mjg59: any questions for slangasek?
<sabdfl> and for the record i'm really glad to see the debian maintainer proposal, looks like it will ease pressure on N-M and DAM
<somerville32> mdz, I find that I have to stress to people who comes to me looking to get involved with Ubuntu the importance of being on IRC is to getting involved
<slangasek> mdz: as far as process, another thing that was confusing to me initially was the "apply to MOTU" vs. "apply to core-dev directly" question, which seems to have been sorted out now since I first applied; that's good :)
<mdz> slangasek: given your extensive Debian background, now that you've had a look from the other side, what do you think about our relationship with Debian?  the good, the bad, the weird?
<mdz> somerville32: maybe it's something we should add to UbuntuDevelopment
<mdz> somerville32: a quick, practical guide to getting in touch with other Ubuntu developers
<mdz> there's a Communication paragraph, but it's more or less a list of resources
<mjg59> slangasek: Do you feel the balance of MOTU (in terms of not putting people off by putting too many barriers in their way, but still wanting to keep the quality of universe high) is about right at the moment?
<somerville32> mdz, The same applies for the mailing list sometimes. Oddly, some people just expect to be able to get involved without attaching themselves to our main communication mediums.
<slangasek> mdz: in spite of the often high-profile complaints in Debian about Ubuntu, I've always felt that Ubuntu has led the way in terms of derivatives cooperating with Debian.  Ubuntu has taken heat because it's the visible target, not because it has a poor relationship with Debian
<slangasek> mdz: there've been a few points in the past where on the Debian side I had concerns about Ubuntu's practices, and now that I've seen things from the other side these all seem to reduce to misunderstandings.  I think the best way to clear up such misunderstandings is with open communication
<mdz> it's very difficult to have good cooperation between two projects which do their work in different places, but in some respects this is inherent in deriving a distribution
<mdz> slangasek: what are the things we could help to communicate openly which weren't clear to you before you got involved with Ubuntu?
<mdz> slangasek: (we can follow up on that thread offline if you prefer, we're limited in time here)
<mdz> I would like to know though
<mdz> in fact, we should definitely take it to email, as we have another applicant waiting
<slangasek> mjg59: I haven't seen much that I thought was going wrong in MOTU to make me think the balance needs to move in either direction, so yes
<slangasek> mdz: right, off-line it is
<mdz> [action] slangasek to send some thoughts about things we need to communicate more openly with respect to Debian
<MootBot> ACTION received:  slangasek to send some thoughts about things we need to communicate more openly with respect to Debian
<mjg59> slangasek: That's reassuring
<mdz> if there are no objections to it, I'd like to call for a vote now, so that we can move on
<mjg59> Works for me
<mdz> [vote] slangasek for ubuntu-core-dev
<MootBot> Please vote on:  slangasek for ubuntu-core-dev.
<MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
<MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
<sabdfl> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from sabdfl. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
<mdz> +1 based on first-hand experience from Debian and excellent feedback so far in Ubuntu
<MootBot> +1 received from mdz. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2
<mjg59> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from mjg59. 3 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 3
<somerville32> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from somerville32. 4 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 4
<mdz> #endvote
<mdz> oh yeah, that's broken
<slangasek> :)
<somerville32> Woot slangasek! :P
<mdz> it's also broken, in this context, that votes are counted for anyone who happens to be in the channel ;-)
<mdz> anyway, welcome slangasek!
<evand> congratulations slangasek!
<slangasek> thanks :)
<keescook> \o/
<sabdfl> welcome, slangasek
<mdz> [topic] ubuntu-core-dev application by Evan Dandrea
<MootBot> Vote is in progress. Finishing now.
<MootBot> Final result is 4 for, 0 against. 0 abstained. Total: 4
<MootBot> New Topic:  ubuntu-core-dev application by Evan Dandrea
<mdz> [link] https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/motu-council/2007-December/000652.html
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/motu-council/2007-December/000652.html
<mdz> [link] http://wiki.ubuntu.com/EvanDandrea
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://wiki.ubuntu.com/EvanDandrea
<mdz> evand: the installer is a real nexus, so you've been exposed to a lot of processes very quickly (bzr, Debian merges, derivative distributions, the live CD, etc.)
<mdz> evand: what was that like?
<evand> It's helped quite a bit.  I've been able to get a good feel for how to maintain packages in a variety of ways, how we interact with derivatives, how important it is to have all the core bits working in order to get solid development work done (the unionfs debacle), and much more.  It's also given me a preference for working with bzr rather than patches for merges.
<mdz> evand: what were the most difficult bits to learn?  the obstacles?  what was poorly documented or overcomplicated?
<evand> It's hard to look back and find overly difficult tasks as I've always had people like cjwatson to lean on, but it's sometimes difficult to run through a merge if you werent the one who had done it in the past, as the reasoning for the delta is often not detailed well enough in the changelog.
<evand> The seeds are quite complicated, but that is somewhat unavoidable in their current form.
<sabdfl> which external components (other than uniquity) do you think will be affected by encrypted filesystems?
<evand> Anything that touches partitioning at all.  We need to make sure that the userspace tools we have can manage LVM + luks, and that our documentation is updated to reflect the options and consequences that are now available to the users.
<evand> The latter being something that we really need to focus on for the installer as a whole.
<mdz> evand: what about the process of specifying and implementing new features in Ubuntu (UDS, Launchpad blueprints etc.)?  do you think that process works well or not, and why?
<evand> I think the workflow we have works extremely well, but I think we can do a better job of communicating to the community how it works simply and make sure that's placed somewhere very visible.  I tried to go out of my way to involve as many people as I could in the Gobuntu discussion by constantly posting updates on the UDS meeting to the ML, as I felt that the vast majority of them had no idea how the system worked.  I think there are some schedu
<mdz> evand: sorry, you seem to have been cut off
<evand> as I felt that the vast majority of them  had no idea how the system worked.  I think there are some scheduler bugs here as well as it's really tough to tell someone, "by the way, we're having a meeting on this in 10 minutes because  the scheduler was updated" because the topic wasn't on the core track.
<evand> does that finish it off?
<keescook> yup
<evand> I'd also like to have the public VoIP discussions at UDS archived, for those who could not attend and so we have more than just our notes to work off of.  A lot happens in meetings, there are side conversations, and everything doesn't always get written down.  I know there has been some opposition to this, but I think it's quite essential.
<mdz> mjg59: questions for evand?
<mjg59> I think I'm ok
<mdz> ok
<mdz> #vote evand for ubuntu-core-dev
<mdz> MootBot: :'-(
<mdz> now I'll have to tabulate the votes by HAND!
<sabdfl> aiiiee
<mdz> [vote] evand for ubuntu-core-dev
<MootBot> Please vote on:  evand for ubuntu-core-dev.
<MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
<MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
<sabdfl> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from sabdfl. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
<mjg59> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from mjg59. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2
<mdz> +1, substantial direct contributions to fundamental Ubuntu bits and demonstrated understanding of and experience with our development processes
<mdz> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from mdz. 3 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 3
<mdz> #endvote
<evand> hooray
<keescook> \o/
<mdz> evand: congratulations and welcome
<sabdfl> welcome!
<slangasek> evand: 'grats!
<mdz> [topic] aob
<MootBot> Vote is in progress. Finishing now.
<MootBot> Final result is 3 for, 0 against. 0 abstained. Total: 3
<MootBot> New Topic:  aob
<evand> thanks everyone!
<mdz> anything further for the meeting?  I have 2 minutes before my next meeting
<Mithrandir> mdz: lucky you :-)
<Mithrandir> evand: congrats, well deserved.
<evand> thanks Mithrandir !
<mdz> ok, thanks all
<mdz> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 20:59.
<evand> thanks for your time, enjoy the rest of your evening
<slangasek> cheers, folks
#ubuntu-meeting 2007-12-19
<kraut> moin
* ubotu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 19 Dec 19:00 UTC: QA Team meeting | 20 Dec 14:00 UTC: Desktop Team Development | 21 Dec 12:00 UTC: MOTU meeting
* ubotu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 19 Dec 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu meeting | 19 Dec 19:00 UTC: QA Team meeting | 20 Dec 14:00 UTC: Desktop Team Development | 21 Dec 12:00 UTC: MOTU meeting | 02 Jan 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu meeting | 09 Jan 20:00 UTC: Edubuntu meeting
* ubotu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Current meeting: Edubuntu meeting Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 19 Dec 19:00 UTC: QA Team meeting | 20 Dec 14:00 UTC: Desktop Team Development | 21 Dec 12:00 UTC: MOTU meeting | 02 Jan 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu meeting | 09 Jan 20:00 UTC: Edubuntu meeting
<zul> @schedule now
<zul> @schedule utc
<ubotu> Schedule for Etc/UTC: Current meeting: Edubuntu meeting 19 Dec 19:00: QA Team meeting | 20 Dec 14:00: Desktop Team Development | 21 Dec 12:00: MOTU meeting | 02 Jan 12:00: Edubuntu meeting | 09 Jan 20:00: Edubuntu meeting
<zul> @now
<ubotu> Current time in Etc/UTC: December 19 2007, 14:28:35 - Current meeting: Edubuntu meeting
<zul> sorry
* ubotu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 19 Dec 19:00 UTC: QA Team meeting | 20 Dec 14:00 UTC: Desktop Team Development | 21 Dec 12:00 UTC: MOTU meeting | 02 Jan 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu meeting | 09 Jan 20:00 UTC: Edubuntu meeting | 10 Jan 14:00 UTC: Desktop Team Development
* ubotu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Current meeting: QA Team meeting Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 20 Dec 14:00 UTC: Desktop Team Development | 21 Dec 12:00 UTC: MOTU meeting | 02 Jan 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu meeting | 09 Jan 20:00 UTC: Edubuntu meeting | 10 Jan 14:00 UTC: Desktop Team Development
 * pedro_ waves
 * heno waves
 * liw waves
 * nand waves
<pedro_> hi all :-)
 * somerville32 waves.
 * ogasawara waves
 * bdmurray tries to think of something other than waving to do
 * somerville32 jumps on top of bdmurray 
 * nand throws snowballs
<heno> better start before a fight breaks out
<heno> welcome all!
<heno> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 19:01. The chair is heno.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<heno> [TOPIC] Testing wiki cleanup day - suggestion from stgraber to follow up on Davmor2's new testing page
<MootBot> New Topic:  Testing wiki cleanup day - suggestion from stgraber to follow up on Davmor2's new testing page
<heno> I don't think either of them are here
<nand> <stgraber> nand: I won't be there :(
<bdmurray> It sounded like a good idea to me
<heno> yep, we just need to pick a day
<heno> Thurs. Jan 3rd?
<liw> ok by me
<heno> (to not conflict with a bug day)
<heno> ok, let's go with that
<heno> [AGREED] QA Wiki cleanup day will be Jan 3rd 2008
<MootBot> AGREED received:  QA Wiki cleanup day will be Jan 3rd 2008
<heno> [TOPIC] qa-hardy-list discussion
<MootBot> New Topic:  qa-hardy-list discussion
<heno> the list has about 120 bugs ATM
<heno> btw, agenda with links: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/QATeam
<pedro_> https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bugs?field.tag=qa-hardy-list
<heno> The purpose of this list is a recommendation from the Canonical QA team to the distro team for what they should focus on
<heno> I would ask that community members not add items to that list directly, but please do make suggestions
<heno> It will to some degree determine the use of Canonical-paid time, so it makes sense to filter it in that way IMO
<heno> At the same time, it's not hidden in any way
<heno> So, with that out of the way, any comments on the contents?
<ogasawara> I assume we should go through and triage any which still need Importance/Status set
<heno> we should
<liw> importance isn't enough to tell distro team what to work on first?
<heno> there are just too many I think
<heno> and importance mainly shows the severity of the bug
<bdmurray> Are they all verified in Hardy?
<ogasawara> bdmurray: I don't think so.  it would be good to verify if the issue is still present with Alpha2
<heno> while a Low bug with 100 subscribers that's been around for 2 years might be good to fix now
<heno> even if it's only a rendering glitch or something
<heno> in fact devs should work on High priority bugs as well; this is a supliment to that lisy
<ogasawara> heno: the one hurdle I see there is that some of those reports that span many releases often grow wildly out of control and deviate from the original report
<heno> raising other issues on the radar
<heno> ogasawara: what can we do about that? Distill the remaining issue in a new bug and dupe the old one to the new, cleaned up one?
<heno> I have added some messy bugs to the list myself
<bdmurray> Looking at the list the 120 number isn't right
<ogasawara> heno: that might help and at least give us a fresh starting point
<bdmurray> Some show up more than once
<pedro_> yeah there's a few of them with more than one task.
<bdmurray> in regards to messy bugs I think it'd be better to clear up the description
<bdmurray> I think that is what it was designed for
<heno> that list view is very annoying
<heno> I don't have strong feelings about that
<heno> what bdmurray says is the traditional way of doing it though
<heno> Perhaps we should use some markup to show that a description has been enhanced in that way
<stgraber> hello
<stgraber> I can sort of follow the meeting
<heno> *** SUMMARY *** for example
<bdmurray> Is "This description was updated" not enough?
<stgraber> (I managed to find an internet connection) :)
<bdmurray> heno: that makes sense similar to "TEST CASE" and "WORKAROUND"
<heno> stgraber: we decided on Jan 3rd for wiki day
<somerville32> heno, sorry to interrupt, but I want to introduce you to sroberts. He is new to the community but he is interested in assisting pull up the slack with Xubuntu QA now that Jim is more busy IRL. :)
<heno> bdmurray: agreed. Just to catch they eye
<stgraber> heno: ok
<heno> hello sroberts :)
<sroberts> hello :)
<somerville32> :)
<jeromeg> hey sroberts
<bdmurray> sroberts: I'd be happy to talk to you after the meeting in regards to bugs if you'd like
<sroberts> bdmurray: sure
<heno> we might get some CDs to test late tonight
<heno> (if not tomorrow)
<heno> about the list -- I've gone through Gutsy and Hardy nominations and printing bugs
<jeromeg> sroberts: happy to have some help to triage xubuntu bugs
<heno> I'm now looking at high dupe count bugs
<heno> High subscriber and team reported are still up for grabs
<bdmurray> I'll take one of them
<heno> liw: did you identify some bugs from testing we should add?
<liw> heno, still working on the list -- but nothing so far, actually, all problems are minor (symlinks or files left behind after upgrades, mostly)
<heno> bdmurray: which one? :)
<heno> liw: ok, perhaps you could look at bugs tagged as iso-testing as well then?
<jeromeg> bdmurray: i triage most bugs for xubuntu so I can explain everything to sroberts
<bdmurray> heno: subscribers
<heno> Things that seem grave and widespread
<bdmurray> jeromeg: okay, cool.  well if you need anything let me know.
<jeromeg> bdmurray: or at least what i know
<jeromeg> bdmurray: time :)
<bdmurray> okay, well not that
<jeromeg> :)
<liw> heno, er, are we talking about the same thing? I'm going through the piuparts log files for failures and looking for problems there (but I can look at bugs in launchpad too, of course)
<bdmurray> However, there are some time saving tools like bughelper that might be useful to you
<heno> liw: right, my suggestion was looking for high impact things in https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bugs?field.tag=iso-testing
<liw> heno, right, I'll do that
<heno> and the adding the qa-hardy-list tag
<heno> liw: thanks. You've probably filed several of those in fact
<heno> I'll look at the from-teams list
<heno> great, let's try to get those in some time tomorrow and I'll send the list of to the distro team
<heno> [TOPIC] Alpha 2 image testing
<MootBot> New Topic:  Alpha 2 image testing
<heno> So we don't quite know when this will start, likely tomorrow morning
<bdmurray> heno: is that UTC?
<heno> Again, Alpha 2 mainly needs a sanity check on most images
<heno> bdmurray: yeah, sorry :)
<stgraber> so, is it still planned for tomorrow or will more likely be released on friday ?
<heno> before bedtime tonight OR time would be my guess
<heno> (as Steve the RM is in OR)
<heno> My guess is testing tomorrow, release on Friday
<heno> I don't think we can arrange much testing on Friday itself
<stgraber> indeed
<heno> lots of people will be away
<heno> or working <not from home>
<pedro_> when is the 2.6.24 hug day?
<pedro_> is tomorrow also?
<heno> after alpha 2
<pedro_> ok ok
<heno> bdmurray: any details?
<heno> ogasawara: ^ ?
<bdmurray> There is a list at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuBugDay/20071219
<bdmurray> the tasks are in progress
<bdmurray> I queried based off 2.6.22 bugs with recent (past 4 weeks) comments
<ogasawara> but we'd like to wait with the hug day until Alpha2 is officially out
<pedro_> totally
<heno> which will likely take us past the Holidays
<bdmurray> hrm
<heno> or perhaps Friday
<ogasawara> I'm hoping for Friday
<heno> ok, cool
<heno> gives reporters a chance to respond over the break
<heno> ok, fingers crossed
<heno> next
<heno> [TOPIC] Bug Day - no package analysis
<MootBot> New Topic:  Bug Day - no package analysis
<heno> bdmurray: care to elaborate?
<bdmurray> I was wondering what packages the no package bug day bugs got assigned to
<bdmurray> 40 went to linux-source-2.6.22
<bdmurray> 34 stayed with ubuntu probably due to their not being enough information
<bdmurray> then 9 to xorg, and 7 to kdebase
<bdmurray> so the quantity dropped off pretty quickly
<heno> bdmurray: do you have a link to the current graph for no-pkg?
<bdmurray> http://people.ubuntu.com/~brian/testing_graphs/nopackage.html
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://people.ubuntu.com/~brian/testing_graphs/nopackage.html
<heno> I wonder if many of the no-pkg bugs are there because it was difficult to figure out where it should go?
<heno> have the tricky ones been piling up?
<bdmurray> Right, that I was really curious how useful writing about "Help -> Report a Bug" would be
<heno> that might well be over-represented by obscure packages
<bdmurray> and with 40 kernel bugs probably not much
<bdmurray> but it still couldn't hurt
<heno> looks like we should revisit this bug day topic in a few weeks
<bdmurray> probably
<heno> bdmurray: you mean that guide is not helpful for kernel bugs, but most other bugs?
<bdmurray> I meant that with the kernel, xorg, compiz there is no "Help" menu to go to in the application
<heno> oh, right
<heno> we should make wishlist bugs to add that ;)
<bdmurray> Additonally it seems like the no package bugs could be a blind spot for the kernel
<heno> yet, 40 doesn't seem too bad
<heno> out of 800 or whatever
<bdmurray> It as 40 out of 238
<heno> oh, that is a fair bit
<liw> 17%
<bdmurray> actually 43 for those doing percentages
<heno> 16.8 ;p
<heno> meh
<heno> anyway, significant
<liw> 18.06722689075630252100% then, approximately :P
<heno> and how many for related things like lrm, initramfs, etc?
<bdmurray> okay +4 with lrm
<bdmurray> regardless still a fair bit
<heno> do many of the no-pkg bugs have dupes already on them?
<heno> and how many were duped during this triage?
<bdmurray> only 2
<bdmurray> http://people.ubuntu.com/~brian/reports/gt2dups/no-package.html
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://people.ubuntu.com/~brian/reports/gt2dups/no-package.html
<heno> ok, so there is likely quite a bit of dupe material in there
<heno> bdmurray: do you want to write up some musings on this?
<bdmurray> What do you mean?  A lot of the no-package ones are likely duplicates?
<heno> bdmurray: right, of things that already have a package
<heno> 2 bugs with dupes from a pool of 2000 is tiny
<heno> so if someone knows enough about a bug to link a dupe, they probably also know it's package
<heno> btw, I wonder how many were genuine no-pk bugs?
<bdmurray> hrm, that report I linked to is old
<heno> and should we tag them as such?
<bdmurray> I'll look into that after the meeting
<heno> ok, cool
<heno> I'm sure we can squeeze some metrics from this :)
<heno> [TOPIC] Next meeting
<MootBot> New Topic:  Next meeting
<heno> We should do one the first week of Jan IMO, but when?
<liw> I'm fine with Wed 2 Jan for a meeting, but I gather people might be on vacation still?
<ogasawara> Jan 2 works for me as well
<pedro_> I'd like to have it the 4th
<heno> we likely won't have much to talk about then
<bdmurray> we would have anything new to report?
<pedro_> so you have a couple of days to read your email
<heno> :)
<pedro_> and talk about some issue you'd find
<liw> nothing to report -> wonderfully short a meeting :)
<stgraber> I'll probably not be around on the 2nd
<ogasawara> Jan 4th works too
<stgraber> (looks like a LUG meeting date :))
<liw> I'm also fine with Jan 4
<pedro_> or the 1 of January
<stgraber> +1 for 4th
<pedro_> a:-)
<heno> looks like the 4th
<stgraber> pedro_: yeah, what about the 1st at like 1:00 UTC ? :)
<heno> pedro_: I suspect a meeting the 1st would be rather empty :)
<pedro_> stgraber: yeah! that's what i'm talking about!
<pedro_> hey i can bring some champagne
<nand> :)
<heno> If so we should do it by voice
<liw> jan 4, at 18:00 UTC?
<heno> just a social meeting
<heno> works for me
<heno> any objections to 18.00 UTC?
<ogasawara> nope
<stgraber> fine for me
 * bdmurray is doing tz math
<bdmurray> that'l be fine
<pedro_> fine for me  too
<liw> bdmurray, should be 10:00 west coast time, right?
<nand> good
<bdmurray> liw: thanks, I got it worked out ;)
<heno> [AGREED] Next meeting on Jan 4th at 18.00 UTC
<MootBot> AGREED received:  Next meeting on Jan 4th at 18.00 UTC
 * liw successfully destroyed any plans to go to a party on Friday night :)
<pedro_> haha
<heno> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 20:00.
<heno> oh, on the dot!
<heno> thanks everyone!
<liw> we're getting good at this
<pedro_> thanks you
<stgraber> now, let's hope the new l-r-m will build
<stgraber> Upload was like an hour ago
<heno> ogasawara: what's the correct package name for lrm in LP now? linux-restricted-modules-2.6.24?
<heno> there seem to be some *-2.6.24 bugs that cannot be closed or renamed
<heno> LP bug it seems
* ubotu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 20 Dec 14:00 UTC: Desktop Team Development | 21 Dec 12:00 UTC: MOTU meeting | 02 Jan 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu meeting | 09 Jan 20:00 UTC: Edubuntu meeting | 10 Jan 14:00 UTC: Desktop Team Development | 16 Jan 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu meeting
<ogasawara> heno: yah, linux-restricted-modules-2.6.24 should be right
 * FisherGirl is looking for a smart person who can help her solve a problem...
<somerville32> !support | FisherGirl
<ubotu> FisherGirl: the official ubuntu support channel is #ubuntu. Also see http://ubuntu.com/support and http://ubuntuforums.org
<FisherGirl> okay
<FisherGirl> I just have a hard time finding my way
<FisherGirl> I am not native English speaker
<pochu> What's your language?
<FisherGirl> swedish
<pochu> !swedish | FisherGirl
<ubotu> FisherGirl: Svensk Ubuntu- och Kubuntusupport hittar du pa #ubuntu-se resp. #kubuntu-se
<pochu> You can try there :)
 * FisherGirl can't afford it
<FisherGirl> they sell ubuntu to swedish ppl
<FisherGirl> not knowing they can download such stuff for free
#ubuntu-meeting 2007-12-20
<theunixgeek> When's the next meeting?
<somerville32> @schedule
<ubotu> Schedule for Etc/UTC: 20 Dec 14:00: Desktop Team Development | 21 Dec 12:00: MOTU meeting | 02 Jan 12:00: Edubuntu meeting | 09 Jan 20:00: Edubuntu meeting | 10 Jan 14:00: Desktop Team Development | 16 Jan 12:00: Edubuntu meeting
<theunixgeek> what's the current UTC time?
<The-Kernel> 23:58
<The-Kernel> I think
<The-Kernel> not sure
<somerville32> Pretty sure it is 00:58
<pochu> @now
<ubotu> Current time in Etc/UTC: December 20 2007, 01:00:31 - Next meeting: Desktop Team Development in 12 hours 59 minutes
<theunixgeek> thanks
<kraut> moin
* ubotu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Current meeting: Desktop Team Development Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 21 Dec 12:00 UTC: MOTU meeting | 02 Jan 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu meeting | 09 Jan 20:00 UTC: Edubuntu meeting | 10 Jan 14:00 UTC: Desktop Team Development | 16 Jan 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu meeting
<Keybuk> tedg: morning
<tedg> Keybuk: good afternoon.
<Keybuk> mvo_, Riddell: ping
<Riddell> hi Keybuk
<pitti> hi
<pitti> argh, sorry
<Keybuk> ok, let's get going
<Keybuk> mvo's client is here, but no life there yet
<MacSlow> :)
<Keybuk> did I miss any agenda items?
<Keybuk> I didn't see any
<pitti> I read the reports so far, didn't see any either
<MacSlow> same here
<Keybuk> does anyone have anything they want to discuss? :)
<Keybuk> no?
<pitti> we still have some merges left
<MacSlow> nope
<Keybuk> pitti: there's always some left ;)
<pitti> but they are all pretty platformish
<Keybuk> Debian won't stop changing things
<seb128> hey
<Keybuk> in that case, let me just wish you all a happy holidays
<pitti> hey seb128
<MacSlow> hi seb128
<Keybuk> there's a button on your computer you may not have used before
<seb128> oh, was a short meeting apparently? ;-)
<Keybuk> it's marked "OFF" or maybe "Power"
<pitti> seb128: do you know whether the remaining 20 merges have an assignee, or are they fair game?
<seb128> pitti: let me look to the list
<Keybuk> pitti: we're after freeze now, so they need RM approval, no?
<pitti> Keybuk: no, why that?
<pitti> we can continue merging and introduce new versions until FF
<tedg> Oh, from people commenting on "exit-strategy" I know that no one uses that button, they expect them all to be in menus ;)
<seb128> pitti: not sure about all of those, libgnomemm2.6 has been synced, libbtctl has a sync request open I think, python-distutils-extra should not be listed
<Keybuk> Just a brief note to remind you all that the DebianImportFreeze[1] for Hardy
<Keybuk> is two days away[2].  This is the deadline for initial merges of packages
<Keybuk> for Hardy; after Thursday, December 13, merging packages is a freeze
<Keybuk> exception, so please have your remaining merges for hardy finished before
<Keybuk> this point.
<seb128> not sure about the other ones
<pitti> hm, that's not our usual definition of DIF
<pitti> 'deadline for initial merges' is correct, of course
<pitti> but DIF is just about stopping the autosyncs
<Keybuk> it may be that steve is trying something different
<seb128> tedg: hi, will you do the gnome-power-manager 2.21.1 update?
<pitti> Keybuk: hm, we better ask him about that then; https://help.ubuntu.com/community/DebianImportFreeze should be updated if there are policy changes
<tedg> seb128: Yes.  I was going to do 2.20.2 also, or no point?
<seb128> pitti: when is UVF now? at the same time as UVF or DIF?
<seb128> tedg: no point, we can have only 1 version in hardy
<seb128> tedg: and we don't do GNOME 2.20.2 updates to gutsy
<pitti> seb128: UVF doesn't exist any more; it's just FF now
<tedg> seb128: Okay.
<pitti> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopment/ReleaseProcess#head-e10e11c208ca4b6fda2649cd18e983ba6dac635d
<seb128> pitti: right, I would not have asked otherwise :-P Ok, my question was "can we still upload new version", and you replied, thanks ;-)
<tedg> There's an odd battery problem that bdmurray and others are reporting.  Apparently HAL is reporting on more batteries now, I think they might be BIOS batteries.
<seb128> pitti: this page is confusing because nothing mention "no new version"
<pitti> seb128: deliberately
<seb128> pitti: which means there is no point we stop updates or need an approval?
<pitti> seb128: in fact new upstream versions are ok until release freeze as long as they just fix bugs
<pitti> seb128: well, it is ok according to the currently documented policy
<pitti> if Steve wants to change that, we should talk to him about announcing it and changing the docs
<seb128> ok
<seb128> I'm fine with that
<seb128> less work for me -;)
<Keybuk> tedg: it also reports on batteries of things like mice and phones
<Keybuk> when I connect to my phone with gnome-phone-manager, gnome-power-manager tells me what it's battery state is
<Keybuk> (arguably these should be different icons, but meh -> Ubuntu 10.04)
<tedg> Yeah, but it's a little odd that gutsy wouldn't have it and hardy would.
<Keybuk> gutsy did that too, no?
<Keybuk> anyway, let's officially adjourn the meeting and carry on conversations if we want ;)
<tedg> Gutsy did it, but the bug report is that people had one battery in gutsy and two in hardy.
 * mvo_ coughs
<pitti> tedg: since our hal didn't change significantly, this might be due to the new kernel now reporting those batteries in /sys, too?
<tedg> pitti: Good to know, they're not in /proc under ACPI.  So I'm thinking they're hiding somewhere else.
<pitti> oh, or /proc; not sure
<tedg> I think it's funny, I don't know why people are complaining about us adding batteries for them ;)
<cjwatson> Keybuk: I checked with Steve about that DIF mail
<cjwatson> he misspoke
<cjwatson> he didn't intend to change the existing practice; read it as "merging packages that have not been merged yet is a freeze exception"
<cjwatson> pitti,seb128: ^--
<Keybuk> cjwatson: ah, thanks for the clarification
 * mvo_ appologizes for not responding at the start of the meeting, he was reshuffling his harddisks in the upgrade test machine for better cooling
<cjwatson> "Yes, sorry for failing to convey this nuance.  I'm not meaning to propose
<cjwatson> any changes to this policy.
<pitti> cjwatson: so merging one the first time is an exception, and a further merge isn't?
<Keybuk> tedg: the extra battery status is a new feature, no? :)
<cjwatson> "
<cjwatson> pitti: as before
<cjwatson> pitti: otherwise "all initial merges must be completed by DIF" would have no force :)
<pitti> it just doesn't seem to be encouraging to finish them off
<pitti> but good to know, I wasn't aware of that interpretation
<cjwatson> they should have been finished before the deadline; if they aren't done, then we need to consider whether it's worthwhile to bother
<cjwatson> -> freeze exception
<pitti> ok
<cjwatson> Keybuk: turning off the computer during holidays would interfere with playing nethack
<Keybuk> playing nethack would interfere with your marriage ;)
<cjwatson> :-)
<cjwatson> (mind you, hasn't done that much yet)
<mhb> hello, it is a bit silent now, could I please ask a question? I have heard about a decision on Kubuntu not being a LTS. Who did make such a decision and are we going to read any official information about this? Sorry if I am bothering.
<MacSlow> mhb, really? If that's true, I did miss that.
<MacSlow> mhb, Riddell should know I think
<mhb> MacSlow: he suggested me to ask here. He does not have much information either, it seems.
<MacSlow> *shrugg*
<MacSlow> mhb, that question seemed to have "killed" the meeting :)
 * mvo_ has no idea about this
<seb128> I know there was some discussions about KDE4
<seb128> it'll not be lts quality
<seb128> but I don't know if they decided anything there
<mvo> I will try to make sure that dapper->hardy upgrades (with text/gtk frontend) will work for kubuntu
<mvo> but I guess that is not really related :)
<mhb> seb128: we have not planned to ship KDE4 as default.
<mhb> mvo: it is not really related, but definitely appreciated!
<pitti> Keybuk: do you know something about the LTSishness decision?
<Keybuk> I know lots of things
<Keybuk> which thing that I know would you like to know?
<Keybuk> :-)
<Keybuk> ah, Kubuntu LTS
<Keybuk> Riddell: have you announced anything there yet?
<Riddell> I have not
<Keybuk> ok; when are you planning on sending something out?
 * Hobbsee thinks people have already found out
<Riddell> Keybuk: I have no plans
<Keybuk> Riddell: since people are asking, soon might be a good time :-)
<Riddell> Keybuk: I don't really have anything to say
<Hobbsee> Riddell: it's therefore the kubuntu council's decision on where to go from here, w.r.t kubuntu hardy, then?
 * Hobbsee would ahve thought that was worth saying
* ubotu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 21 Dec 12:00 UTC: MOTU meeting | 02 Jan 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu meeting | 09 Jan 20:00 UTC: Edubuntu meeting | 10 Jan 14:00 UTC: Desktop Team Development | 16 Jan 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu meeting | 17 Jan 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu meeting
<theunixgeek> @now
<ubotu> Current time in Etc/UTC: December 20 2007, 21:35:18 - Next meeting: MOTU meeting in 14 hours 24 minutes
<theunixgeek> Why is every meeting in a bad time for me :(
<theunixgeek> lol just kidding
<somerville32> lol
#ubuntu-meeting 2007-12-21
* ubotu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 21 Dec 12:00 UTC: MOTU meeting | 22 Dec 11:00 UTC: Kubuntu Developers | 02 Jan 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu meeting | 09 Jan 20:00 UTC: Edubuntu meeting | 10 Jan 14:00 UTC: Desktop Team Development | 16 Jan 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu meeting
<yharrow> omputer crqapped out on me :S
<kraut> moin
<Varka> moin
<somerville32> moin
<warp10> Hi all
* ubotu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Current meeting: MOTU meeting Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 22 Dec 11:00 UTC: Kubuntu Developers | 02 Jan 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu meeting | 09 Jan 20:00 UTC: Edubuntu meeting | 10 Jan 14:00 UTC: Desktop Team Development | 16 Jan 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu meeting
<persia> Who plans to chair the meeting?
 * persia wants to avoid chair confusion after the meeting begins
<Hobbsee> you.
 * persia is recused due to haveing the only agenda item
<dholbach> Hobbsee: how about you? :)
<TheMuso> I can do minutes/announcements, if people are willing to wait 5/6 days for them.
 * dholbach hugs TheMuso
<Hobbsee> i'm so not.
 * persia is more than happy to wait for annoucements, but offers to do minutes if nobody else wants them in the interest of not waiting.
 * Hobbsee is gaming
 * dholbach chairs the meeting then
<dholbach> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 12:00. The chair is dholbach.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<dholbach> Welcome to another MOTU meeting
<TheMuso> persia: You're welcome to do minutes if you want
<dholbach> our Agenda is available at: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/Meetings
<dholbach> first up is persia
<dholbach> [TOPIC] Discussion of change from requesting interdiff files to requesting diff.gz files. Despite documentation, interdiff seems hard to use.
<MootBot> New Topic:  Discussion of change from requesting interdiff files to requesting diff.gz files. Despite documentation, interdiff seems hard to use.
<persia> TheMuso: OK.  If you don't mind announcements: I tend to forget :)
<TheMuso> persia: Announcements are fine.
<persia> Interdiff files are wonderful, do everything we need, and help with the review process.  Unfortunately, despite documentation, many people seem to have trouble with them.
<persia> cjwatson pointed out that most of the interesting information is contained in the diff.gz, and that the diff.gz was actually smaller than the "full interdiff".  In testing, I've found that I can reliably produce a .changes file for a new upstream from a diff.gz.
<dholbach> I personally haven't dealt much with interdiffs yet, but found it OK once I knew about the process-interdiff script.
<TheMuso> But interdiff files are a nice way to see exactly what has changed.
<persia> Does anyone know of any reasons not to shift from interdiff to diff.gz in the hopes of making the process easier to understand?
<persia> TheMuso: True, but the understanding is easier with -p1, and that makes it hard to reconstruct the target package.
<TheMuso> Yes, looking at .diff.gz alone can sometimes be hard to work out what has changed.
<TheMuso> persia: Following the documented process at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopment/Interdiff, I have had no problems making interdiffs for others, and reviewing them.
<persia> Most of the confusion seems to be related to the presence or absence of -p1.  By migrating to diff.gz, we'd push the burden of understanding when to use -p1 on the sponsor.
<TheMuso> Right.
<persia> TheMuso: Neither I, but I've seen others with difficulties.
<TheMuso> What is so difficult about following a process?
<TheMuso> That is documented/
 * persia doesn't know
<TheMuso> I fear that the few of us who are present, who seem to be fine ith them cannot make this decision.
<TheMuso> We need more attendees, particularly those who have had trouble with them, to speak up.
<TheMuso> s/speak up/attend the meeting and put their view forward/
<dholbach> I feel the process decision would benefit from an evaluation period and the script being more public (ubuntu-dev-tools maybe) - maybe also a wiki page at PackagingGuide/Recipes
<TheMuso> dholbach: Agreed. I was not even aware that the script was in a state that was usable.
<TheMuso> i've been doing it manually myself.
<persia> dholbach: It's a one-line call, documented at both UbuntuDevelopment/Interdiff and MOTU/Contributing.  The script isn't very reliable, although RainCT is looking at it.
<dholbach> just to avoid going through the "ok, we've changed the process again", "hey we reverted it because somebody complained", etc business
<dholbach> persia: I think it'd help to distribute it and improve it in iterations of using it day-to-day
<dholbach> I'm sure we can tweak it to a point where it makes people happier :)
<dholbach> ... even happier... :)
<persia> Sure.  I don't see any point to changing the process unless one of the people who complained has something to say in the meeting.  Two weeks ago, this was raised in "Any Other Business", and all comments were positive, but I promised to investigate alternatives, hence this topic.
<dholbach> Ok... what can we agree on and what can we transform into action items?
 * siretart is late - sorry
<dholbach> somebody who wants to help me with setting up a recipe page (in the new year)?
<persia> In the absence of discussion from anyone with problems with Interdiff, let's agree that we should make more efforts to get automation scripts working well.
<TheMuso> I agree with that.
<siretart> I tried interdiff for one of my packages
<dholbach> persia: will you add your process-interdiff script to ubuntu-dev-tools as a first step?
<persia> dholbach: Not in the current state.  It breaks too often.
<cjwatson> why were we ever requesting people to use interdiff by hand rather than debdiff?
<cjwatson> (debdiff uses interdiff internally)
<persia> cjwatson: new upstream packages sometimes have new binary objects which debdiff can't represent.
<siretart> cjwatson: I assume because debdiff also displays the upstream changes
<siretart> cjwatson: perhaps we can tune debdiff to skip those?
<siretart> persia: this sounds like a bug to me. I'd expect that it notes this fact, but continues then
<persia> siretart: Yes, but it means that one can't reconstruct the target package from the debdiff.
<persia> One can reconstruct from interdiff -p0 or diff.gz from the new package.  There may be other ways, which I have yet to discover.
<siretart> persia: is that really necessary?
<persia> siretart: I think so.  I'd rather have a relatively small single file to download as a bug attachment when sponsoring a new upstream than negotiating from where to get a package.
<persia> (especially when sponsoring from unknown contributors)
<siretart> hm. I see
 * Hobbsee notes that those who are not up with the latest motu proceedures still use debdiff, quite happily
<siretart> how about teaching debdiff binary diffs then? (perhaps using xdelta or something)
 * Hobbsee notes that you're going to get resistance switching everyone over, for something that seems to be of little benefit
<persia> siretart: Considering that we can usually just download orig.tar.gz from upstream, and that we should when we don't know or trust the contributor, I'm not sure that's ideal.
<dholbach> cjwatson: what are your thoughts about this?
<persia> Hobbsee: Sure.  Maybe takes a while.  Still, good to pick the right thing before pushing everyone to switch.  Interdiff has been documented in one way or another for about 6 months.
 * norsetto thinks that downloading a diff.gz from a bug report and then a tarball from somewhere is not much different than downloading a diff.gz and a tarball from revu
 * siretart agrees to norsetto 
 * persia thinks that new upstreams have a lower threshold for changes than REVU packages, and that this is confusing to Contributors.
 * persia further doesn't trust tarballs on REVU, having found a few that were different for no clear reason
<cjwatson> dholbach: personally? not being able to open a patch directly in my browser makes me less likely to review it in a timely fashion
<TheMuso> cjwatson: That I can understand.
<cjwatson> I think we should fix the tools rather than reverting to a process that will delay review
<persia> cjwatson: Do you mean adding hunking support to combinediff?
<cjwatson> and work around it on a case-by-case basis in the odd instance where there's a problem
<cjwatson> persia: I do think new upstreams are a special case
<cjwatson> and there's no reason to throw the non-new-upstream baby out with the bathwater
<persia> cjwatson: Ah.  Currently Interdiffs are only recommended for new upstreams.  All other patches are supposed to be debdiffs.
<cjwatson> oh, I see, I misunderstood then
<persia> We're trying to close the corner case.
<cjwatson> yes, I think in that case a full .diff.gz is probably easier to review
<cjwatson> so I take back my comments
<cjwatson> but new upstream bugs should definitely come with clear instructions on retrieving the .orig.tar.gz
<persia> I argue those instructions belong in either a watch file or a get-orig-source target in debian/rules
<cjwatson> I agree that they should be there, but relying solely on them complicates review
<cjwatson> and it means that you have to run stuff from the package before you can review it
<persia> cjwatson: That's the reason for writing the automation scripts to pull it out.  Good point about running unseen code in get-orig-source though.
<cjwatson> it doesn't seem much to ask for somebody to provide a URL in addition
<geser> persia: I haven't looked at it yet: but how does it work to call the get-orig-source target from the diff.gz? how to you apply the diff.gz without the source tarball?
<persia> geser: filterdiff :)
<dholbach> to me it seems we should hold off on making a final process decision today but work on documentation and wiki examples instead and give people some time to evaluate the process
<persia> That seems reasonable to me, although with Interdiff having been documented for the last six months, I'd like to continue recommending that to new Contributors until and unless we pick another process (perhaps using diff.gz).
<dholbach> I didn't intend us to revert any decision or documentation now.
<persia> OK.  That sounds perfect then :)
<dholbach> great
<TheMuso> +1
<dholbach> persia: shall we work together on documentation and recipes?
<persia> dholbach: I don't really understand recipes as implemented on the Wiki.  I'm happy to write yet more docs if the current are insufficiently clear.
<dholbach> persia: the recipes are intended to be step-by-step examples, so people would download a tarball, an existing package and the steps would guide them to a working interdiff etc
<persia> dholbach: Right.  We can discuss in another forum.  Consider my previous response mostly as "yes".
<dholbach> [AGREED] No process change now, improve documentation (examples) instead and give us some time get feedback on it.
<MootBot> AGREED received:  No process change now, improve documentation (examples) instead and give us some time get feedback on it.
<dholbach> [ACTION] persia and dholbach to work on wiki documentation containing examples
<MootBot> ACTION received:  persia and dholbach to work on wiki documentation containing examples
<dholbach> thanks a lot persia
<dholbach> [TOPIC] Other business
<MootBot> New Topic:  Other business
<dholbach> any other business?
<dholbach> going once...
<TheMuso> Should we perhaps notify people that there may be few/no MOTUs around for the next two mondays, due to the break?
<TheMuso> and people doing the festive things they do?
<dholbach> TheMuso: I believe persia already sent out a notice
<TheMuso> Oh?
<persia> TheMuso: I've recently sent an annoucement about REVU days, but something more general may be useful.
<TheMuso> persia: Ok.
<dholbach> Does somebody volunteer to send out a more general announcement?
<TheMuso> persia: Where did you send that announcement? I don't think I've seen  anything to that effect yet.
<norsetto> why general if its about mondays? Or is that about the next two weeks?
<dholbach> TheMuso: -motu and -motu-mentors
<persia> TheMuso: About 5 minutes before the meeting started.
<TheMuso> persia: ah ok
<dholbach> norsetto: yeah, the next two weeks - I expect less activity
<persia> norsetto: About the next two weeks (for general MOTU availability).  That wasn't clear in my mail.
<TheMuso> Hrm. Mail is slow then.
<dholbach> (at least speaking for myself... :))
<norsetto> dholbach: you bugger :-)
<dholbach> Ok... do we need a more general announcement?
<geser> TheMuso: https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-motu/2007-December/002942.html
<dholbach> maybe I'll just do it
<TheMuso> geser: thanks
<dholbach> [ACTION] dholbach to send out a general announcement about christmas activities
<MootBot> ACTION received:  dholbach to send out a general announcement about christmas activities
<dholbach> any other business?
<dholbach> going twice...
<dholbach> ok, gone
<dholbach> [TOPIC] date and time of next meeting
<MootBot> New Topic:  date and time of next meeting
 * persia proposes 20:00 UTC 4th January
<TheMuso> Good for me.
 * dholbach keeps quiet because he'll likely be on the road then
<geser> good for me too
<dholbach> ok... let's go with 20:00 UTC 4th January then
<dholbach> [AGREED] next MOTU meeting is 20:00 UTC 4th January
<MootBot> AGREED received:  next MOTU meeting is 20:00 UTC 4th January
<TheMuso> I'll send an announcement out as soon as I return next thursday.
<dholbach> adjourned - thanks for attending the meeting :)
<dholbach> thanks TheMuso and persia for sending out those mails
<dholbach> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 12:38.
<dholbach> http://kryten.incognitus.net/mootbot/meetings/ubuntu-meeting.20071221_1200.html
* ubotu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 22 Dec 11:00 UTC: Kubuntu Developers | 02 Jan 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu meeting | 09 Jan 20:00 UTC: Edubuntu meeting | 10 Jan 14:00 UTC: Desktop Team Development | 16 Jan 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu meeting | 17 Jan 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu meeting
<Hobbsee> @now
<ubotu> Current time in Etc/UTC: December 21 2007, 13:46:31 - Next meeting: Kubuntu Developers in 21 hours 13 minutes
#ubuntu-meeting 2007-12-22
<imbrandon> @now
<ubotu> Current time in Etc/UTC: December 22 2007, 01:11:58 - Next meeting: Kubuntu Developers in 9 hours 48 minutes
* ubotu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Current meeting: Kubuntu Developers Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 02 Jan 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu meeting | 09 Jan 20:00 UTC: Edubuntu meeting | 10 Jan 14:00 UTC: Desktop Team Development | 16 Jan 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu meeting | 17 Jan 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu meeting
<Riddell> hi all
 * Jucato waves hello
<Hobbsee> heya Riddell
<Riddell> we'll start in a few minutes with membership then other stuff
<smarter> hello
<Riddell> but first, one of the items is wallpapers, and I have a selection we can review from the oxygen people
<Riddell> but it's not to be given out to the public
<Riddell> so if you want to have a look at them please /msg me and I'll give you the URL
 * Hobbsee would
 * mhb would
<Riddell> nobody else?
<jpatrick> rouzic isn't around -> skip
 * jpatrick would
<Hobbsee> how pretty
<Jucato> are there pink ponies? :)
<Riddell> Good Morning Friends
<Hobbsee> Riddell: are these in widescreen too?
<Riddell> welcome to the Kubuntu Christmas party
<Hobbsee> yay, party!
<Riddell> Hobbsee: dunno
<Riddell> wearing of paper hats from crackers is compulsary
<sigma_> lol
<Riddell> who do we have from the council?
<Riddell> me, Hobbsee, mhb
<Riddell> Lure?
<mhb> not me, I'm afraid :o)
<Lure> Riddell: just joined
<Jucato> um... I have to excuse myself... family stuff... sorry to drop out so suddenly. I'll try to catch up later
<Riddell> not mhb... yet :)
<jpatrick> I'll write the minutes if you'd like
<Riddell> nixternal?
<Jucato> we seem to be missing the minutes for the past 2 meetings btw...
<Jucato> anyway... gone... sorry again...
<Riddell> agenda at https://wiki.kubuntu.org/Kubuntu/Meetings
<Riddell> first up is membership
<Riddell> no rouzic?
<Riddell> do we have smarter?
<smarter> Riddell: yes :)
<Riddell> welcome along smarter, could you introduce yourself?
<smarter> okay
 * Hobbsee curses rotten parents
<smarter> I'm a 14 yo, French guy, I'm admin of the french ubuntu forum and a KDE-lover :) Wiki page: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/GuillaumeMartres
<Hobbsee> i'm going to need to belatedly vote on this.  *sigh*
<Hobbsee> memberships first would be great.
<Riddell> smarter: how long have you been involved?
<Lure> smarter: what is the area that you think your contributions are the stronger?
<Riddell> is there anyone here to support smarter?
<smarter> Riddell: I first used Linux 2,5 years ago I became a moderator on the french forum 1 year ago, admin six months ago and medibuntu packager since yesterday ;)
<smarter> Lure: For the moment, bug reporting, but I hope to make cool patches for Kubuntu/KDE in the future
<smarter> Riddell: I asked some french MOTU but it looks like they forgot to wake up ;)
<Riddell> smarter: why are the packages of amarok and kaffeine different in medibuntu?
<smarter> Riddell: amarok is compiled with --enable-mp4v2 and kaffeine with lame support
<smarter> but they're based on Kubuntu packages
<smarter> and the description clearly state that they are not official Ubuntu packages
<Lure> smarter: and afair, they only change build-depends
<smarter> Lure: yes, kaffeine build-deps on liblame-dev and amarok on libmp4v2-dev
<Lure> smarter: how long are you doing bug triage and are you focusing on particular areas?
<smarter> Lure: I started bug triaging recently and I focus mostly on kde, 'cause it's easier for me to try to make patches
<Lure> smarter: kde in general or are some packages of particular interest?
<smarter> Lure: I started with kdebase
<smarter> and kdelibs
<Riddell> we always need more of that being done
<nixternal> YAY \O/
<Lure> smarter: you are a brave man!
<nixternal> I can't believe I woke up
<Lure> ;-)
<Riddell> morning nixternal, any questions for smarter before we vote?
<smarter> thanks Lure ;)
<Lure> smarter: we really need bug triagers
<nixternal> err
<nixternal> who is the smarter? :)
<Riddell> nixternal: https://wiki.kubuntu.org/GuillaumeMartres
<nixternal> so many new people :)
<nixternal> w/o a doubt his future is definitely bright, considered he was 12 when he started
<Jucato> that's a good sign right? (trying to sneak in a line or two before dinner)
<Jucato> :)
<Riddell> lets vote
<Riddell> +1 from me for adding to the francophone cabal and doing the slog of bug triage
<Riddell> Lure, nixternal, Hobbsee?
<nixternal> that is pretty impressive to me
<Lure> I would prefer a bit longer contribution, but based on couple of bugs, comments I have just reviewed I can give a +1
<nixternal> +1 - simply amazed at just how accomplished one is at 14
<Riddell> congratulations smarter
<smarter> huzzah! \o/
 * Lure remebers jpatrick being that age when I joined - and he helped me getting into packaging ;-)
<Riddell> any other memberships?
<nixternal> congrats
<Hobbsee> grrr, parents.
<smarter> That's a cool christmas present ;)
 * Hobbsee quickly reads
<jpatrick> Lure: ;)
<nixternal> can I go back to bed :)
<nixternal> hehe
<jpatrick> rouzic's asleep/missing
<Lure> smarter: welcome and rock on!
<yuriy> congrats smarter
<Hobbsee> +1 from me
<jpatrick> congrats smarter!
<Lutin> smarter: congrats :)
<smarter> thanks everyone :)
<Riddell> so next is the big item for today, the non LTS change
<nixternal> WHAT? NON-LTS? You are kidding right?
<nixternal> p
<Riddell> discussion of the way that was decided should be left to the canonical members of the tech board, keybuk says he's happy to answer questions
<Hobbsee> oh, i thoguht there was a background decision first :P
<nixternal> oh ya, the tongue and no eyes
<Lure> Riddell: he is not around
<Riddell> no, you'd have to catch him at some other time
<nixternal> Lure: do you blame him after such a big decision? :)
<smarter> does that mean that 8.10 will be a LTS?
<Hobbsee> Riddell: so presumably the question is abotu where to focus our attention - kde3, kde4.
<mhb> I would suggest deciding on the further steps we take in order to help Kubuntu the most
<Riddell> smarter: no
<Hobbsee> smarter: no
<Lure> Riddell: I know that Keybuk wears several hats: so in which authority was decision made? Canonical or TB?
<Riddell> Lure: LTS is Canonical's decision
<smarter> 9.04 then?
<Lure> Riddell: and I suspect dapper is first and last LTS for Kubuntu, right?
<Riddell> smarter: I can't see us having an LTS out of step with ubuntu
<rouzic> hi akk
<rouzic> all*
<Riddell> Lure: I hope not, I don't think so
<Lure> rouzic: will cover your membership later, ok?
<nixternal> Riddell: by chance, is there any reasoning that can be publically displayed for this decision?
<Hobbsee> nixternal: probably a better question for keybuk
<rouzic> lure: :(
<Riddell> nixternal: as Hobbsee says
<nixternal> roger that
<Lure> Riddell: but we will break LTS upgrade chaing, therefore LTS ->LTS upgrade will not be possible anymore
<Hobbsee> Lure: apparently there are no support contracts anyway
<Lure> Riddell: unless dapper Kubuntu will be supported until next LTS which I doungt
<Lure> dounbt even
<Lure> doubt even ;-)
<Hobbsee> and i'd imagine that we'll vaguely support dapper --> hardy, with metapackages
<Hobbsee> but not test overly much
<nixternal> Hobbsee: there are, I know a few people and places here with the support contracts
<Hobbsee> (as in, default installs to hardy)
<Hobbsee> nixternal: kubuntu dapper?
<nixternal> actually no
<nixternal> no LTS support contracts :)
<Lure> Hobbsee: problem is that new users cannot install something today that is LTS supported and be able to upgrade to LTS in future
<Hobbsee> nixternal: right, yes, those are the ones that we care about for the purposes of this discussion
<mhb> well I think we're settled on that we will do 2 Kubuntu CDs, one with KDE3 as default desktop and the other one would be a KDE4-KDE3 mix, I guess.
<Flannel> So, we only care about paying customers now?
<nixternal> unfortunately so
<Hobbsee> Lure: this is true, but that debate is for the tb, not general kubuntu.
<Lure> Flannel: I hope not ;-)
<Riddell> unfortunatly making a KDE 4 CD is blocked on the seeds being rejigged so we don't have a clear idea of what packages would be on it
<Riddell> but as mhb we should have both a KDE 3 CD and KDE 4 CD, and the question is the status of each
<Hobbsee> Lure: it would, of course, be nice to have a reasonably working upgrade, if a community member wanted to work on it somewhat
<yuriy> Flannel: well LTS = long term support = paying customers. i don't see why anybody else would care about the LTS moniker
<Flannel> Lure: You'll still be able to install Hardy and upgrade to the next LTS, you just may have to do the upgrade as a GUI-less upgrade, and then convert back to Kubuntu
<nixternal> I don't see why 3.5 release couldn't be LTS
<Riddell> Hobbsee: mvo says he's making sure upgrade works, but the Kubuntu upgrade tool will be missing
<Hobbsee> nixternal: because canonical has decided.
<Hobbsee> Riddell: right
<Lure> yuriy: it is message to the marked and such decision does not help making kubuntu viable alternative
<Flannel> yuriy: There are plenty of people, myself included, that are still on Dapper and not paying customers, because we prefer stability.
<Hobbsee> Riddell: probably safer, seeing as how it usually does
<Lure> yuriy: and I am the first one to agree that Canonical can drop it
<Hobbsee> Flannel: then i'd suggest helping out checking that it works, to upgrade it.
<Lure> yuriy: just that they should do well though decision first and discuss other aspects with community
<Hobbsee> regardless, we're bikeshedding, and wasting valuable time
<mhb> indeed
<Riddell> of course if someone else or a company wants to get the upgrader running and tested in it's meny different combinations that's entirely welcome, although slow and boring work
<Riddell> so, I have a proposal
<Riddell> ...
<nixternal> drum roll...
<cheguevara> :P
<Hobbsee> Riddell: shoot
<Riddell> we keep the KDE 3 CD as the commercially supported (18 months) and based on the kubuntu-desktop seed, and the one that 7.10 upgrades to...
<Riddell> but we big up the KDE 4 CD as being the interesting and exciting one, we put it on release.u.c, have it on shipit and generally make it the focus of our messaging
<nixternal> +1
<mhb> +1 from me
<Hobbsee> Riddell: if we're allowed to do that, +25.
<cheguevara> +1
<Riddell> it would be community supported, so 6 months only
<jpatrick> +1
<mhb> the only problematic part is whether they'll allow us to do that
<Riddell> but it would be the main Kubuntu CD for non-commercial users
<Hobbsee> Riddell: that's reasonable enough.  it's not like montreal would know kde4 stuff anyway - nor that they'd be writing patches
<Hobbsee> Riddell: what do we support upgrades from after hardy, then?
<nixternal> Hobbsee: its not like montreal know's 3.5 stuff either
 * Lure_ dropped of
<Hobbsee> nixternal: true, but they probably know a bit more than that
 * Hobbsee grabs a pastebin
<Riddell> Lure: http://paste.ubuntu-nl.org/49274/
 * Riddell wins
<Lure_> Riddell: thanks
<mhb> Hobbsee: I'd assume Hardy+1 would have one KDE again, which would both CDs upgrade to
<Hobbsee> awww
 * Hobbsee blames au connection
<Riddell> yes, hardy+1 should be KDE 4
<Riddell> supported upgrade path would be from KDE 3 (which is the tricky bit)
<Hobbsee> so the kde3 --> kde4 would work
<Hobbsee> Riddell: not if you really want kde3,4 to be coinstallable, though
<Riddell> upgrading from KDE 4 should be fine too since that's comparitavly easy
<Hobbsee> if you can just put a global replaces on it...
<Hobbsee> er, don't want them to coinstall
<Lure_> Riddell: so hardy+1 will still have kde3 in, just not default?
<Hobbsee> Lure_: commercial customers would get it by deafult
<mhb> Riddell: have you talked with Steve Langasek or anyone else from the Release Team about your plan?
<Hobbsee> mhb: he's one of them, i'm another.
<Riddell> Lure_: that I'm unsure, how soon we clear kde 3 from the archives, but it's pretty much a question for hardy+1 not now
<Lure_> Riddell: agreed
<mhb> Hobbsee: I know, but Canonical can block it again, as they do the shipping ...
 * Hobbsee can't see why you'd keep kde3 around
<mhb> Hobbsee: I wouldn't like that to happen
<Hobbsee> mhb: i doubt they would.  they haven't blocked MOTU so far
<Riddell> mhb: we can have whatever we like on shipit really, just send them the ISO and tell the marketing person what to put on the cover text
<Hobbsee> so i doubt they would this either
<Riddell> iRon, vorian: http://paste.ubuntu-nl.org/49274/
<Lure_> Hobbsee: because all apps would not have kde4 port yet?
<Hobbsee> Lure_: i thought you could run kde3-based stuff in kde4.
<Lure_> Hobbsee: right, but we need libs, base...
<yuriy> hence why would you get rid of it?
<nixternal> you can
<Hobbsee> Lure_: right
<Riddell> apachelogger: http://paste.ubuntu-nl.org/49274/
<yuriy> i would think kde3 stuff would get demoted to universe though
<mhb> Lure_: it may not fit on the CD, we don't know yet.
<apachelogger> hi
<txwikinger> +1 for the paste
<mhb> Lure_: but I guess the sane KDE4 CD would have a KDE4 desktop, some KDE4 apps, and some KDE3 apps (amarok, kaffeine, digikam and so on)
<Riddell> mhb: that it would
<vorian> Riddell, big +1 :)
<Hobbsee> mhb: amarok, etc, has been ported.
<Riddell> openoffice, dunno about
<apachelogger> +1
<Riddell> Hobbsee: not in time for hardy
<Lure_> Riddell: I would go with koffice beta
<Hobbsee> Riddell: oh, true, yes
<jpatrick> couldn't we use koffice?
<apachelogger> Hobbsee: amarok2 is unusable
<Hobbsee> does it support windows file formats reasonably, though?
<Riddell> we could go with koffice but I'd want to ask the koffice devels if they're happy with that
<yuriy> you don't think amarok2 and digikam will be ready in time for hardy?
<apachelogger> still, since amarok1.4 only depends on kdelibs that's not a biggy
<Riddell> anyway, this isn't a good time to discuss the exact apps
<yuriy> and kword2 seems quite usable already
<Riddell> we need to get the KDE 4 CDs started first, then argue over the finer details
<apachelogger> agreed
<nixternal> ditto
<Riddell> anything else to discusson that, or can we move on?
<mhb> Riddell: so when can we expect it to be unblocked?
<jpatrick> Riddell: rouzic's around
<Riddell> mhb: cjwatson says it's high on his priority, so hopefully soon in the new year
<Lure_> Riddell: koffice is expected to be released in April, so beta should be good enough for preview
<Lure_> http://wiki.koffice.org/index.php?title=KOffice2/Schedule
<rouzic> it's here
 * yuriy keeps thinking hardy is 8.06 not 8.04 because of dapper
<nixternal> heh
<Riddell> rouzic: could you introduce yourself?
<yuriy> as in, 2 extra months to get apps in
 * Riddell reads https://wiki.kubuntu.org/rouzic
<rouzic> riddell: I have been the admin of kubuntu-es.org for the last two years. And now run the xubuntu-es.org and edubuntu-es.org websites
<Riddell> rouzic: I notice kubuntu-es.org is still broken, what's happening there?
<jpatrick> Riddell: the guys with the DNS don't want to hand it over to us
<Riddell> jpatrick: hrm
<Riddell> anything I can do to help with that?
<jpatrick> he erased his user account (because of lack of activity), and now he doesn't exist for them
<Riddell> rouzic: so what's on kubuntu-es.org what it is working?
<jpatrick> the site can be accessed from the xubuntu-es and edubuntu-es.org since they both use the same DB
<jpatrick> s/both/all three
<Riddell> and which is rouzic here? https://edge.launchpad.net/~rouzic :)
<Riddell> anyone here to support rouzic?  jpatrick presumably?
<nixternal> the one with long hair :)
<apachelogger> lol
<rouzic> riddell: I have to right a fax to the DNS guys
<rouzic> riddell: i'm the boy, left on the photo
<Lure_> rouzic: any other community member that you worked with?
<apachelogger> better visit him personally ;-)
<jpatrick> Riddell: well he has been working on the site for two years :)
<jpatrick> +1 from me
<Riddell> rouzic: what is your relationship with ubuntu-es.org ?
<Lure_> rouzic: are that also es support channels on irc?
<apachelogger> rouzic: any future plans for your contribution to kubuntu?
<rouzic> riddell: contact with the administrador's ubuntu-es every day
<Lure_> rouzic: that is the other person on the picture? ;-)
<rouzic> apachelogger: Translations and bug reports
<cheguevara> sorry, have to leave for work, bye
<Lure_> rouzic: not much activity in LP though?
<Lure_> bye cheguevara
<rouzic> apachelogger: #kubuntu-es.org
<apachelogger> rouzic: how about representing Kubuntu @ linux events in es?
<rouzic> good bye cheguevara
<jpatrick> Lure: he rarely comes on irc, but I maintain the #kubuntu-es channel
 * LongPointyStick sighs at how her screen only sometimes unlocks
<Lure> Riddell: I am fine to give +1 on jpatrick support - LoCo presence is important and can just improve for kubuntu
<Lure> rouzic: but you need to fix kubuntu-es.org or replace with some other name ;-)
<Riddell> +1 from me too, good luck with that DNS
 * Lure wants to see kubuntu theme
<Riddell> nixternal awake? Hobbsee?
<nixternal> if jpatrick is supporting, I would have to consider -1 :P  but seeing as you all like jpatrick, I guess I will do a +1 :p
<nixternal> +1
<rouzic> apachelogger: yes ;)
<Hobbsee> see LongPointyStick comment
<apachelogger> hrrhrr
<apachelogger> I love event promo :D
<apachelogger> +1 from me
<Riddell> ah nixternal, always windind us up like the office joker
<Riddell> he'll be doing silly things with the photocopyer next
<apachelogger> oioi
<Riddell> congratulations and welcome rouzic
<apachelogger> congrats rouzic
<Lure> rouzic: rock on!
<jpatrick> rouzic: bienviendo!
<nixternal> hahahaha
<Hobbsee> rouzic: -1 from not meeting him in sevilla.
 * apachelogger hands out cookies
<Riddell> wallpapers is next on the agenda
<nixternal> my photocopier is to small to do silly things with
<Riddell> everyone have the url?  /msg me if not
<jpatrick> Riddell: I don't
<nixternal> see /msg
<rouzic> riddell: thanks :)
<Hobbsee> rouzic: how do you go for ops, etc, in -es?
<Riddell> Hobbsee: jpatrick says he's not an irc man
<Riddell> and that jpatrick runs #kubuntu-es
<Hobbsee> oh.  that's weird, as i've seen him around somewaht :)
<Hobbsee> ahhh.  had forgotten that
<jpatrick> Hobbsee: I have minimumal access, but we both have ops on #kubuntu-es (trying to get the other guy to give more access), I also have ops on #ubuntu-es :p
<Hobbsee> right
<nixternal> Riddell: are we supposed to take a vote on what we like with the wp's?
<Riddell> jpatrick: I can get you whatever access is needed in #kubuntu* channels if a freenode staffer is around
 * Hobbsee can too
<Riddell> so wallpapers
<Riddell> I think the final decision should be taken by kwwii
<jpatrick> oh, pretty
 * Hobbsee wants occthecodepoet.jpg
<Riddell> and it's not limited to the ones here, I just thought since the oxygen team had collected them it would be nice to make use of them
<Hobbsee> what's the colour theme for hardy?
<Riddell> in my mind a wallpaper should not distract at all and fit in the with colour scheme
 * Hobbsee notes that the blue ones don't really do it for her
<Riddell> Hobbsee: well of course we have both KDE 3 and 4 to consider
<Riddell> KDE 3 will be blueish as usual, KDE 4 is a whole new land
<mhb> riddell-compliant are not much mhb-compliant here either.
<Riddell> the ones in riddell-compliant are the non distracting ones that fit in with KDE 3 in my opinion
<nixternal> there are some bubbles i actually like for once in there :)
<mhb> the photographic ones tend to be too blurry at higher resolutions
<Riddell> of course if you've seen the hoary wallpaper I made, you'll know I'm not always the best at chosing these things
<nixternal> I don't like the "KDE 4 Winner" honestly
<nixternal> top-left in the riddell-compliant section
<Riddell> so once Ken gets back from the US I think we should give him our preferences and he can chose one
<mhb> that sounds sensible.
<Riddell> '632-img 2760' is my favourite currently
<nixternal> does anyone know if he is in the Chicago land area with his folks by chance?
<apachelogger> Riddell: mine too
<Riddell> nixternal: he hasn't said, but it seems likely
<jpatrick> looks fishy
<nixternal> that is pretty cool
<_StefanS_> Riddell: got an url for that image?
<mhb> I like the colour scheme of the Feather wallpaper
<nixternal> I will have to try and get in touch with him then since he would be right up the road then
<apachelogger> yeah, feather is currently my 2nd fav
<apachelogger> though, it might make the whole desktop too darkish
<nixternal> my favorite, well it was 282 Colorado Farm, but there are some really nice onces in this list that I haven't seen before
<nixternal> I like the fish that Riddell likes, and KDE 4 Wall Ts9 is kind of sharp
<Riddell> nixternal: too Windows XP
<nixternal> heh
<nixternal> but the photo is brilliant :)
<_StefanS_> Riddell: I like 479-fresh morning
<nixternal> 252 bubbles is kind of neat
<Riddell> I'm not much of a fan of photos in general, too distracting
<_StefanS_> Riddell: your favourite is not in very high quality
<mhb> I find the fish too cyan to make a good wallpaper
 * LongPointyStick curses compiz
<mhb> also it suffers from the "blur at high resolution"
<mhb> which is why I don't make photos anymore :o)
<nixternal> hehe
<nixternal> 160-The Wall is kind of neat
<nixternal> OMG
<mhb> what I don't like on the Feather is the feather
<nixternal> 282 Lake Dillon is beautiful
 * txwikinger likes the Colorado Farm too
<apachelogger> mhb: replace it with the logo
<mhb> but I assume the wallpaper is SVG, so that could be changed if the author agrees
<Hobbsee> ah yes, the colorado farm is *nice*
<apachelogger> replace the text with Kubuntu
<mhb> apachelogger: we don't really like branded wallpapers
 * Hobbsee still likes the autumn leaf.
<mhb> that's the policy.
<apachelogger> mhb: but it looks best :P
<Riddell> so last item on the agenda is a related item
<nixternal> Hobbsee: autumn leaf == img 3101?
<_StefanS_> hmm the only wallpapers that present nicely in highres is the *oxygen* ones (in riddell-compliant)
<Riddell> the artwork team want someone to represent Kubuntu
<mhb> _StefanS_: the Feather doesn't? :o)
<Hobbsee> nixternal: erm, no, occthecodepoet.jpg
<Hobbsee> nixternal: below TheClouds
<_StefanS_> mhb: in riddell-compliant
<mhb> _StefanS_: ah
<mhb> _StefanS_: right
<nixternal> oh ya, that is a nice one too
 * Hobbsee wonders why it seems that bright desktops seem more distracting than photos
<apachelogger> my favs: oxygen, 632 and feather
<_StefanS_> mhb: I guess thats the ones we have to choose from
<Riddell> any volunteers to represent Kubuntu on the artwork team?
<Hobbsee> apachelogger: ooh, yeah.  oxygen is nice
 * mhb reads
<Hobbsee> Riddell: i will, if i can get my favorite artwork in :P
<nixternal> Riddell: do we have to be good at doing graphics?
<Hobbsee> feather.  oh, shudder.
<Riddell> nixternal: no I don't think so
<nixternal> what all is involved, any ideas?
<apachelogger> well, one should have an idea of what is going on in kubuntu artwork I guess ;-)
<Riddell> apachelogger: that should be easy
 * nixternal would think Ken would represent us :)
<_StefanS_> anyone liking those nature photos should definitely check out vplants on deviantart.com
<apachelogger> nixternal: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Kubuntu/Meetings
<Riddell> ken is kindae busy representing everything artwork
<apachelogger> pd: List of representative duties:
<Riddell> * Be active in the IRC channel
<Riddell> * Be active in list
<Riddell> * Attend meetings (wherever posible)
<nixternal> ahh, I didn't pay attention to that email thing
<apachelogger> * Familarity with the structure of their distribution
<mhb> nixternal: we need someone kubuntu-biased :o)
<nixternal> umm, I don't see artwork, I see derivative team
 * Hobbsee wonders where to get the panorama one at higher resolution
<apachelogger> nixternal: Subject: Re: Ubuntu Artwork Team
<nixternal> ya, but nothing in that email is about artwork
<nixternal> Riddell: I was apart of the whole derivatives thing, and never seen much work, so I recently departed from it
<Riddell> well if nobody wants to do it, that's ok
<Riddell> any other business?
<mhb> well I can hang around -artwork if that's it
<nixternal> but that team has nothing to do with artwork
<nixternal> don't let the subject fool ya :)
<apachelogger> Riddell: maybe call for someone on -devel?
<mhb> well they have ideas
<nixternal> this is an "Ubuntu Derivatives" team for helping distros based off of Ubuntu
<steveire> was oxygen1 decided on?
<Hobbsee> nixternal: that's what i thought....
<apachelogger> steveire: we decided nothing :P
<apachelogger> we are just not in a decideful mood I guess
<steveire> Ah right. It's a nice one though.
<Hobbsee> steveire: uh, no?
<nixternal> Riddell: I will work with the Derivatives team
 * Hobbsee notes you should all use her old background, for something a bit disturbing :P
<Riddell> ok, I think we're done
<Riddell> thanks nixternal
<nixternal> hahaha, if it is anything like your MySpace page, then heck no!
<Riddell> no snogging under the mistletoe
<nixternal> no problem
<nixternal> damn Riddell, just ruin my Holiday why don't ya :)
<apachelogger> -.-
<apachelogger> meh
 * nixternal returns the 30 pounds of mistletoe
<Riddell> next meeting would be on wednesday 2nd jan
<mhb> that's what I wanted to do!
<mhb> :o(
<nixternal> groovy
<Hobbsee> nixternal: they took that down.  but good idea!
<mhb> okay, looking forward to it
<Riddell> oh ok, you can snog under the mistletoe if you want
<nixternal> oh no
<apachelogger> -.-
<nixternal> I just returned it!
<nixternal> haha
<apachelogger> meh^2
<mhb> see you folks, and merry christmas
<toma> nice holidays everyone!
 * Hobbsee grumbles.  no holidays yet
<apachelogger> nice holidays and merry christmas from the Amarok team :)
* ubotu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 02 Jan 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu meeting | 09 Jan 20:00 UTC: Edubuntu meeting | 10 Jan 14:00 UTC: Desktop Team Development | 16 Jan 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu meeting | 17 Jan 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu meeting | 17 Jan 14:00 UTC: Desktop Team Development
 * Mitsurugi shit all
#ubuntu-meeting 2007-12-23
 * Mitsurugi hi all
#ubuntu-meeting 2008-12-15
<ziroday> @schedule Singapore
<ubottu> Schedule for Asia/Singapore: 16 Dec 03:00: LoCo Council | 16 Dec 09:00: Forum Council | 16 Dec 19:00: Community Council | 17 Dec 00:00: Server Team | 17 Dec 01:00: Kernel Team | 18 Dec 00:00: Foundation Team
<ziroday> @schedule New Zealand
<ubottu> Error: Unknown timezone: New Zealand - Full list: http://tinyurl.com/4vyvp8
<ziroday> @schedule Auckland
<ubottu> Schedule for Pacific/Auckland: 16 Dec 08:00: LoCo Council | 16 Dec 14:00: Forum Council | 17 Dec 00:00: Community Council | 17 Dec 05:00: Server Team | 17 Dec 06:00: Kernel Team | 18 Dec 05:00: Foundation Team
<juliux> hi
<juliux> i will be a little bit late
<juliux> still at work
<ButterflyOfFire> hi juliux
<boredandblogging> juliux: thats fine, so will popey
<Robb_M> im sorry for all the nickname changes guys, trying to get an unaffiliated cloak set up.
<Robb_M> so i had to group a nickname or two.
* ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Current meeting: LoCo Council Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 16 Dec 01:00: Forum Council | 16 Dec 11:00: Community Council | 16 Dec 16:00: Server Team | 16 Dec 17:00: Kernel Team | 17 Dec 16:00: Foundation Team
<boredandblogging> we don't have enough people for a LoC Council meeting
<boredandblogging> LoCo
<boredandblogging> waiting on one more
<elendil> hi @all
<boredandblogging> elendil: are you here for the loco council meeting?
<elendil> of course ;)
<_j1mc> hi all - working from home today
<felipexil> hi!
<j1mc> can listen in
<j1mc> hi boredandblogging
<boredandblogging> j1mc: hey!
<boredandblogging> not sure we will have this meeting
<j1mc> np
<boredandblogging> we need one more member
<j1mc> nixternal: ping
<al2> hi
<regml1> Hi
<crazyness003_> hello
<ButterflyOfFire> hi
<crazyness003_> just wanted to test this out. Havent been on irc in ages
<ButterflyOfFire> So the LoCo Council Meeting will be hold tomorrow ?
<crazyness003_> ?
<janc_EEE_900> maybe in 10-15 minutes
<ButterflyOfFire> I saw the subject changed so
<ButterflyOfFire> Okay thanks janc_EEE_900 , anyway I'm not far
<janc_EEE_900> the subject says "Current meeting: LoCo Council "  ;-)
<ButterflyOfFire> ok ;)
<regml1> OK, still waiting then
<al2> ok
<crazyness003_> anyone know about the ForumCouncilMeeting?
<ButterflyOfFire> It is listed on the subject crazyness003_
<crazyness003> oops. thanks
<ButterflyOfFire> ;)
<crazyness003> hang on. exactly what time will it be. the page: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ForumCouncilAgenda states 0100 UTC, but on here it has 2 diff times with no timezone/standard specified
<ButterflyOfFire> Have a look here too crazyness003 : http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event
<ButterflyOfFire> I'm lost among all the GMT's :p
 * popey pings ButterflyOfFire 
<popey> er boredandblogging
<ButterflyOfFire> yep
<boredandblogging> popey!
<popey> boredandblogging!
<boredandblogging> ok, we have enough people
<boredandblogging> janc_EEE_900: ping
<boredandblogging> shall we get started?
<ButterflyOfFire> hi olive heu .. sorry popey :p
<janc_EEE_900> yep, I'm here
<crazyness003> ok. thanks ButterflyOfFire. I guess im a n00b afterall
<popey> ButterflyOfFire: learn how to spell "popeye" :p
<ButterflyOfFire> :p
<boredandblogging> Galacia?
<boredandblogging> oops
<boredandblogging> Galicia
<felipexil> yep
<felipexil> here I am
<felipexil> :)
<boredandblogging> the application is very short
<felipexil> ummm, I can provide more information
<felipexil> please just point out the relevant information which you think is missing
<boredandblogging> felipexil: have you seen other approval applications?
<felipexil> yes
<boredandblogging> is translation the main activitiy?
<felipexil> ok, perhaps the most relevant
<felipexil> think is that we are gaining focus
<felipexil> in the Galician government
<felipexil> and I want to take advantage of this moment
<felipexil> we have been working mainly as a translators team
<boredandblogging> felipexil: what events have you held?
<felipexil> but the Galician government have just released
<felipexil> a customized Galician Ubuntu version
<felipexil> ok
<felipexil> events: we have participated in two public meetings
<felipexil> about free software
<felipexil> the most recent was the release of the Galician customized Ubuntu version (aka Galinux, based on a metapackage: AraOS)
<felipe_> the best part about felipexil has to be his name :D
<felipexil> we have also done an "install fest" at the University of Vigo
<felipexil> felipe_: a good name :)
<felipe_> hehe, sorry, didn't mean to interrupt! just had to say ...
<felipexil> we have also participated in a meeting about localization promoted by the Galician government
<felipexil> and of course promoted Ubuntu in the local mailing lists
<felipexil> translators teams
<felipexil> GNU/Linux users teams
<felipexil> government
<felipexil> Universities (we have three here)
<felipexil> In Galicia we are three million persons, but I think we have an active comunity
<boredandblogging> felipexil: right, the application should list all those events in detail
<popey> agreed
<felipexil> ok, my mistake
<popey> the mailing list is pretty quiet, how many members are there on it?
<felipexil> the translators list?
<boredandblogging> what is the LP team?
<popey> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-l10n-gl/
<felipexil> approx 60 members
<felipexil> https://edge.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-l10n-gl
<felipexil> https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-l10n-gl
<felipexil> I would like to emphasize the fact that becoming now an official Ubuntu LoCo will give us visibility
<boredandblogging> thats a translation team, do you have a team just for the LoCo?
<felipexil> because of the presentation of the new Ubuntu based Galician distribution
<felipexil> we are starting the team. I have asked for the forum and mailing list
<popey> http://gal.ubuntuforums.org/ seems to just go to the front of the forums, not a specific area
<felipexil> but the process is very slow
<janc_EEE_900> what relationship do you have with the Spanish LoCoTeam?
<boredandblogging> where did you submit the mailing list request?
<felipexil> yesterday I contacted one of the members of the forum council, they stated that we will have the forum soon
<felipexil> relationship with the Spanish LoCo Team: I have not contacted them
<felipexil> but, of course, in the future a close relation
<popey> felipexil: is there a reason you haven't contacted the loco?
<felipexil> will be sure
<felipexil> no, lack of time
<felipexil> about the list: I made the request to an automatic system
<felipexil> and after a week I also sent an email to Jorge Castro
<felipexil> (but he was in the developers summint)
<felipexil> We will also contact the Catalan LoCo
<felipexil> wich is close to us
<boredandblogging> felipexil: think you have a good start, but the LoCo needs to get some of the basic infrastructure first
<boredandblogging> and like you are starting to do, contact other LoCos around you
<felipexil> yes, but that is a hard work :)
<popey> I would like to see a more established loco page detailing past activity, plans for the future and structure
<popey> felipexil: running a loco _is_ hard work :)
<felipexil> :), I supposed so, but I expected that it would be easier to setup the infrastructure :)
<janc_EEE_900> you're already doing good work with the translations it seems
<popey> yeah, agreed, work so far is great! but more needed IMO
<boredandblogging> agree with janc_EEE_900 and popey, good start
<felipexil> janc_EEE_900: thanks
<felipexil> thanks @all
<boredandblogging> good luck
<felipexil> only one question: when should we apply again?
<felipexil> after filling the application with more information
<boredandblogging> felipexil: also remember to add yourself under wiki.ubuntu.com/LoCoTeamList
<popey> we usually recommend LoCos come back after 3 months
<felipexil> or after having the infrastructure working during a time?
<felipexil> ok
<boredandblogging> Mali?
<regml1> yes
<regml1> We're there
<regml1> me and al2
<al2> yes
<popey> love the logo
<regml1> thanks
<boredandblogging> mali has been working with ubuntu-fr?
<regml1> yes
<regml1> kindof
<regml1> we use and promote a lot docs.ubuntu-fr.org and distribute the offline version of the french documentation (based partly on a software we wrote)
<popey> http://kura.kunnafoni.org/2008/05/16/kunnafoni-launches-âla-sourceâ/ is interesting, is it still in place?
<regml1> yes it is !
<regml1> we are taking it to the main malian ICT event next week
<popey> do you have any stats of what it has done?
 * janc_EEE_900 wonders if you could distribute Ubuntu through that radio station, like they did with Basicode in the 80s   ;-)
<popey> heh
<regml1> well, most of downloads is Firefox and Openoffice
<regml1> also some free-licenced music
<regml1> I realize I haven't put the URL of the website : http://ubuntu.kunnafoni.org/
<regml1> website is very recent thus
<popey> are all your members in the same town?
<regml1> we have a couple from the outside
<regml1> but Mali is like a capital-only country (unfortunately)
<regml1> because except Bamako, most of country is very rural
<popey> do people use internet cafes then?
<popey> rather than own their own computer?
<regml1> yes, a lot ; but very expensive
<regml1> they have computers (in Bamako) but no Internet
<regml1> a 256kbps connexion (like ours) costs 600$ / year
<popey> ouch
<regml1> that's why we are working with offline a lot
<popey> have you organised any events in the area?
<regml1> no ; we're participating in that e-festival thing. Except that we've organized meetings but it was like 6-8 people
<regml1> oh and we've done an install party at university
<janc_EEE_900> using (only) the internet would be useless if almost nobody has internet, so the offline approach is good IMHO...
<regml1> but wasn t really successful :/
<popey> install party where nobody has computers?
<regml1> was at university : there were computers but we asked students to promote the party and there were only 6 people from which 3 were sleeping !!
<popey> thats a shame
<regml1> yes :(
<popey> What do you think could be done to improve things?
<boredandblogging> regml1: do you think it would help closer with ubuntu-fr? would they be able to provide you with anything helpful?
<regml1> well, we need to work more on communication : we relied 100% on that student to promote the thing ; we should have printed posters and stuffs
<popey> ok, the french team are _great_ at making posters!
<popey> I suspect that you could learn a lot from the french team
<popey> in fact, _all_ of us can learn a lot from them
<regml1> yes we definitely want to reuse their posters ; and their last party sounded like a huge success
<boredandblogging> agreed
<ashubuntu> hello here, i'm jumping in. regml1, have you tried to work with other francophile countries on the african continent?
<ashubuntu> or see how they do it, maybe they are running into the same issues as you are...
<regml1> yes we did ; we have contacts with people from Cote d'Ivoire and Morocco
<popey> I'll be honest, I'd like to approve you because you clearly have a hard job, but I'd like to see a sustained effort over a little longer period, perhaps with some increased communication both within your team and with other LoCos before I'd +1 your approval.
<regml1> but they are not facing the same issues as our
<popey> It must be difficult, I'm sure
<regml1> their countries are way more equiped on computers and connexions
<popey> locos can work very well with little resources
<regml1> it is difficult ; here burning an ubuntu CD cost us 1.5$ while the average country-wide income is less than $1 a day
<popey> regml1: are there any specific resources you are missing?
<regml1> being a loco would save us so much money
<popey> this is where LoCo twinning would come in helpful. If the French (or other) loco could ship you some CDs, that might help?
<regml1> sure that would really help
<janc_EEE_900> maybe the french loco can help with the CDs ?
<popey> it's an idea I have been thinking of for some time
<regml1> I had no idea the french loco had such power
<boredandblogging> yes, we can talk to huats about this
<popey> well, it would be a donation
<popey> it would cost _someone_ money _somewhere_
<popey> but ideally not you
<regml1> yes
<popey> if you can show some commitment to scheduling more events and promoting use of Ubuntu then I'm sure in return others will help you
<boredandblogging> agreed
<popey> I'd certainly be happy to ship you some spare Ubuntu CDs if I have them
<regml1> we want to set up that offline repository first
<boredandblogging> same here, they aren't localized french, but still
<regml1> that's what have been slowing us down
<popey> but I feel that becoming an approved team might need to wait for a little while
<popey> regml1: offline repository?
<regml1> because ubuntu cd doesn't come with full french
<regml1> so people have to connect and downalod to have a correct setup
<janc_EEE_900> the french loco could send them, while other loco's help to pay...
<regml1> popey: yes ; a mirror of the Ubuntu repository
<popey> I'd also be happy to send you a hard disk full of a mirror of the Ubuntu repo and ISO images
<popey> talk to me offline about that - alanpope@ubuntu.com
<regml1> I did that on my computer when I traveled to france but had to delete it for space reason
<popey> of course it wont be up to date, but it would be a snapshot
<regml1> thank you popey !!!
<popey> well, it will be up to date on the day it's made :)
<popey> np, it's something I've been thinking about anyway, it would be a good test of the process
<regml1> wonderful !
<boredandblogging> cool
<popey> Ok, so we're agreed that you guys are going to contact the french loco and request assistance in the form of posters etc, and _we_ will contact them and ask if they are willing to help with CDs?
<popey> and we can look at your approval application again in ~3 months?
<popey> is that fair?
<regml1> sounds ok to us
<regml1> we'll contact the french shortly
<popey> cool. boredandblogging would you be able to contact huats?
<popey> I'll work on packaging up a hard disk and some other stuff for them
<boredandblogging> regml1: what is your email? I'll send you and huats an email
<janc_EEE_900> and keep on getting ubuntu in the local media (radio etc.)
<[NikO]> popey, you can come on #ubuntu-fr-meeting, and wait, he comes each day
<regml1> reg at nurv dot fr
<popey> thanks [NikO]
<regml1> popey: I'll contact you by mail about that ; thanks again
<popey> regml1: drop me a mail, so we can make contact and figure out what you want in this repository mirror, ok
<regml1> ok
<boredandblogging> anything else?
<popey> nope, that's all I think
<regml1> nope ; thank you all for those great progress to come !
<popey> no problem - keep up the great work!
<boredandblogging> do we want to schedule the next meeting now?
<regml1> rushing for dinner ; bye
<felipexil> bye!
<popey> boredandblogging: sure
<popey> boredandblogging: can we make it an hour later if it's a weekday?
<ButterflyOfFire> When the next meeting for the Member approuval will be held ?
<janc_EEE_900> somewhere in January, I suppose?
<boredandblogging> popey: sure
<boredandblogging> yeah
<ButterflyOfFire> Okay :)
<[NikO]> ButterflyOfFire, it's depends your regional board, but i can't find the answer for europe :/
<boredandblogging> how about Monday 13 Jan 21:00UTC?
<ButterflyOfFire> ok [NikO]
<janc_EEE_900> that date/time is okay for me
<boredandblogging> popey?
<janc_EEE_900> BTW: for those who don't remember Basicode: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basicode
<popey> sorry, making tea :)
<popey> yes that date is fine by me
<popey> an hour earlier would be fine also
<boredandblogging> lets just try 21:00 and see what happens
<popey> ok
<popey> cool
<boredandblogging> I'll update the wiki pages and stuff
<popey> nice one
<boredandblogging> alright, thanks everyone!
<elendil> bye
* ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 16 Dec 01:00: Forum Council | 16 Dec 11:00: Community Council | 16 Dec 16:00: Server Team | 16 Dec 17:00: Kernel Team | 17 Dec 16:00: Foundation Team | 17 Dec 17:00: QA Team
#ubuntu-meeting 2008-12-16
* ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Current meeting: Forum Council Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 16 Dec 11:00: Community Council | 16 Dec 16:00: Server Team | 16 Dec 17:00: Kernel Team | 17 Dec 16:00: Foundation Team | 17 Dec 17:00: QA Team
<lukjad007> All right, I won't be able to stay. Sorry.
<crazyness003> so we gonna get started
<crazyness003> do we have a meeting in session or what. or are we waiting for everyone?
<Snowflake> I think we are still waiting. At least three admins aren't here, anyway.
<crazyness003> ok
<crazyness003> are we early or is everyone just late ;)
<Snowflake> Maybe it's just that my timezone estimates were off or something.
<talsemgeest> No, it was definitely supposed to start 45 minutes ago...
<Rocket2DMn> meeting never happened?
<talsemgeest> Still hasn't started
<crazyness003> SnowFlake: I thought so too, but thats not the case
<crazyness003> Rocket2DMn: No, the lat one was earlier, it was a LoCo meeting, after that there was just silence. I waited all this time for nothing?
<Rocket2DMn> i honestly dont know, but its entirely possible
<talsemgeest> "Forum Council meetings will be held on #ubuntu-meeting on irc.freenode.net (this is subject to change)."
 * Hobbsee suspects people are still confused with days
<stunatra> it is still the 15th here, so maybe that's why.
<Rocket2DMn> ok well im pretty sure this isnt gonna go down tonight
<crazyness003> yeah, but its already 0100 UTC, December 16, 2008
<talsemgeest> Do they usually have more than one meeting per month? http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?p=6260207#post6260207
<crazyness003> check this out http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event
<talsemgeest> I guess it was just a really bad time for most people
<crazyness003> even the admins?
<talsemgeest> Stuff it, Im going to fix my grub
<crazyness003> i think they're just waiting for us to leave, so when they start they got no opposition
<stunatra> Maybe.
<crazyness003> hey, aren't you sstusick?
<stunatra> Yep!
<crazyness003> bump!
<stunatra> LOL
<stunatra> I was going to change my nick if the meeting got started
<stunatra> had a feeling it wouldn't
<stunatra> because I'm here :P
<crazyness003> i'v been waiting fo 4 hours
<stunatra> I've been here for a few hours
<stunatra> well, idling
<stunatra> 3 hours almost exactly
<stunatra> wow
<Snowflake> lukjad007 unfortunately could not come. ;(
<stunatra> He was here
<stunatra> but then left
<Snowflake> I know.
<Snowflake> He offered his proxy to me, that I could vote for him.
<Snowflake> (I turned it down)
<stunatra> lol
<Snowflake> I am, however, supposed to send him the logs.
<Snowflake> They'll be pretty boring. :)
<stunatra> That's for sure
<crazyness003> if there even is logs of the meeting...if there even is a meeting.
<Snowflake> I'm pretty sure this channel is logged.
<stunatra> well I will idle here
<stunatra> night and day :P
<Snowflake> Regardless, I log everything anyway.
<stunatra> me too
<crazyness003> me bump
<stunatra> the bump thread needs a bump :P
<Snowflake> Am I the only one here who *doesn't* care about the bump thread? :)
<crazyness003> im too lazy to log in, plus im helping someoen with a presentation
<stunatra> Probably!
<crazyness003> if ye be a pirate, ye'll care 'nough!
<Snowflake> Arr, I be one o' the best pyrates!
<stunatra> You're one of those crazy pirates eh
<stunatra> :P
<crazyness003> not here dude. (but i still disagree)
<Snowflake> Huh?
<Snowflake> *confused again*
<crazyness003> hey look, an eagle!
<Rocket2DMn> lol how many people are here in support of the bump thread
 * stunatra is
<Snowflake> We've made rather a mess of the meeting channel. :)
<stunatra> a mess?
<crazyness003> me is 2
<Snowflake> I don't care, but just try and mess with me pyrate thread! :)
<stunatra> I think there's more bump thread fans than pyrate fans :P
<Rocket2DMn> i cant believe there are over 30k bumps
<Rocket2DMn> you guys have way too much time on your hands
<stunatra> I've got 5.4k of those bumps :X
<Snowflake> Rocket2DMn: You started it! :)
<Rocket2DMn> yes. yes i did.
<stunatra> I think I started the bumping enthusiasm back in August
<stunatra> whatever I said, got everyone bumping more than ever before
<crazyness003> i remember what you said too
<stunatra> 25k bumps in 4 months
<crazyness003> it went somethign like this: bump
<stunatra> something like that.. crazy lol
<Rocket2DMn> its going to overtake the Word Association game soon
<stunatra> Yep
<stunatra> that's the goal
<Snowflake> You guys are crazy. :)
<stunatra> This is true
<stunatra> won't argue with you there :P
<Snowflake> Hmm, only 10,000 more bumps to go!
<Rocket2DMn> i only have 304 bumps
<Snowflake> Even that is too many, if you ask me.
<stunatra> and you're the father of the bump thread
<stunatra> pretty sad if you ask me :P
<Rocket2DMn> well ive been at it for a year and a half almost
<stunatra> I started back in February I think
<crazyness003> i thought the goal was to just keep it in the top
<Rocket2DMn> i have to thank bapoumba for supporting that thread, w/out her it very well might have been closed within a few days
<crazyness003> oh an i finally made it to the K-1! huzzah!
<Snowflake> Really? Where?
<crazyness003> what?
<Rocket2DMn> so anybody here like to file bugs?
<stunatra> nope
<Rocket2DMn> weak
<stunatra> I file bugs and no one does anything
<stunatra> so I gave up
<crazyness003> i do. any chance i get
<Rocket2DMn> i wrote a beginners guide yesterday for it
<Rocket2DMn> http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1011078
<Rocket2DMn> let me know if i missed anything important
<crazyness003> oh, i just got my II 8.10 cd from ship-it
<stunatra> I got mine a couple weeks ago
<stunatra> too bad, went back to 8.04
<crazyness003> lame
<stunatra> lol
<Rocket2DMn> im in 8.04
<Rocket2DMn> no way im upgrading til i know restricted drivers will work
<stunatra> I ain't upgrading for awhile
<crazyness003> restricted drivers work for me
<stunatra> tired of stupid bugs
<crazyness003> i have my lappy and desky on 8.10
<stunatra> things that work in one version should work in the next
<crazyness003> "should" being the key word
<Rocket2DMn> well, its a kernel thing, ATI and Nvidia didnt update their drivers
<stunatra> and pulse audio is nothing but a headache
<Rocket2DMn> its better than it used to be
<Rocket2DMn> you shoulda seen the problems it had during intrepid development
* ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 16 Dec 11:00: Community Council | 16 Dec 16:00: Server Team | 16 Dec 17:00: Kernel Team | 17 Dec 16:00: Foundation Team | 17 Dec 17:00: QA Team | 18 Dec 12:00: Ubuntu Mobile Team
<Snowflake> Worksforme. :)
<crazyness003> ok, anyone object to having the bumpthread continue its life
<Rocket2DMn> i think it's safe :)
<Snowflake> The silence is unanimous!
<crazyness003> so long live the Bump thread and its affiliates
<crazyness003> going once
<crazyness003> going twice
<crazyness003> Three times! GONE!
<Snowflake> SOLD!
<crazyness003> Ladies and gentelmens, the BUMP thread (and its associates) live on in peace and harmony (or until the next Forum Council Meeting >:(
<talsemgeest> Horay!
<crazyness003> so, anyone who has objections...you're VERY late. But please state your case
<crazyness003> i guess thats it.
<Snowflake> :)
* ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Current meeting: Community Council Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 16 Dec 16:00: Server Team | 16 Dec 17:00: Kernel Team | 17 Dec 16:00: Foundation Team | 17 Dec 17:00: QA Team | 18 Dec 12:00: Ubuntu Mobile Team
<dholbach> hello everybody
<dholbach> who do we have here for the CC meeting? :)
<Technoviking> morning dholbach
<dholbach> hiya Technoviking
<sabdfl> hello all
<dholbach> Burgundavia is not online and elmo is travelling
<dholbach> hi sabdfl
<dholbach> I just pinged mako, mdke is at work
<dholbach> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CommunityCouncilAgenda is the agenda of today
<sabdfl> ok
<sabdfl> Fridge <-> Calendar
<sabdfl> erk
<sabdfl> Calendar <-> IRC
<dholbach> I personally do not know what the status on the IRC<->Fridge bot is, but for the Corporate Blogs on p.u.c item I know that we're still waiting on a few votes on the document proposal of Corey
<dholbach> boredandblogging: are you awak already?
<dholbach> hey mako
<sabdfl> hey mako
<mako> greetings
<sabdfl> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CommunityCouncilAgenda
<sabdfl> i know there was an email exchange with nigel pugh about script access to GCalender
<sabdfl> nigel seemed to feel that it should be easy to gain access to events in the way they need
<sabdfl> where Google takes care of the repeating and just feeds a list of "coming events"
<sabdfl> i see on the /talk page that the decision was made to move to Google Calender
<dholbach> python-gdata should be a nice option there
<sabdfl> but i have no idea if there is any progress on IRC announcements
<dholbach> I can send a mail to Nick to see what the status is (as it was discussed in the last CC meeting already) and maybe we just need to ask for help with the scripting in a blog post and set up a meeting for people who are interested in working this out
<elkbuntu> I dont think there's been any progress on the IRC front. At least, none I've heard of.
<sabdfl> i asked nigel to look into whether such a thing is useful for Canonical too
<sabdfl> we use google calender internally, and irc of course
<sabdfl> if so, we might work on one
<dholbach> great
<mako> it sounds like that would be nice outcome :)
<sabdfl> well
<sabdfl> it sounds like a distant possibility on the time dimension ;-)
<sabdfl> should we move on?
<dholbach> yes
<dholbach> regarding the coporate blogs item, we're lacking votes on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/PlanetUbuntu/CorporateBlogs
<mako> but barring that, something like a blogpost or some other way to raise visibility for the issue is really the best we can do
<dholbach> mako: I'll take care of mailing Nick and discussing options with him
<sabdfl> +1 on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/PlanetUbuntu/CorporateBlogs
<dholbach> +1 from me too
<Technoviking> +1 here
<mako> i think i want to make one little edit to it
<mako> it says we need to tagged to only export a subset but i think we should specificy what that subset is
<sabdfl> it's the subset that the company wants to put on planet ;-)
<dholbach> and add a "or have a specific blog for just the Ubuntu-related corporate blog entries" but that's just me being pedantic :)
<dholbach> I'm fine with it :)
<sabdfl> i.e. they should have a designated tag, and the subscription feed should be limited to things tagged like that
<mako> alright. i think it's a little vague, but it should be a problem since it requires explicit persmission in any case
<sabdfl> we could craft the language to say that "planet should only be subscribed to a subset of blog entries where a conscious decision is made to put the blog post on ubuntu planet. for example, tagging entries with a specific "ubuntuplanet" tag, and subscribing planet to a feed of blog posts with that tag, would be acceptable"
<mako> +1 from me
<mako> sabdfl: yeah, i think that's better
<mako> but it's fine
<sabdfl> any other votes still due on that page, dholbach?
<dholbach> sabdfl: haven't heard back from elmo nor mdke, but I'd say we have quorum here
<dholbach> and two weeks was enough to speak up if they seriously disagreed - also we can revisit the decision if it turns out to totally not work out
<sabdfl> i'll send mail to the CC to the effect that we discussed it here, tweaked the page, and +1'd it
<dholbach> WDYT?
<sabdfl> agreed
<dholbach> sabdfl: alright
<sabdfl> should we +1 the oxford archeology request?
<sabdfl> i think it's quite reasonable, and it's what triggered the conversation (not the Canonical blog)
<dholbach> sabdfl: I can mail Yann to ask him to add it to the bzr branch once you mailed the CC about it
<sabdfl> will do
<dholbach> rock on
<sabdfl> for the record, +1 from me on Oxford Archeology
<dholbach> +1 too
<mako> absolutely, it sounds like a reasonable request +1
<sabdfl> done
<Technoviking> +1 for Oxford Archeology
<sabdfl> more done
<sabdfl> do we have any clarity on the request for participation in the Tunisian loco event?
 * dholbach doesn't know much about it
<dholbach> jono mentioned something about it, but I can't quite remember and he's on vacation
<sabdfl> i think this really belongs with Jono - either we can fund a person to go, or we can't
<sabdfl> let's pass that one on to jono explicitly and remove it from our agenda
<dholbach> errr
<dholbach>  Date
<dholbach> 	
<dholbach> Dec 16 2008 Ã  prÃ©ciser
<dholbach> we might be a bit late anyway
<sabdfl> heh
<elkbuntu> just a bit...
<sabdfl> next!
<dholbach> IRC Council
<sabdfl> irc
<sabdfl> i just voted
<sabdfl> +1 on all three, based on wiki pages and endorsements
<dholbach> we should have all votes in
<sabdfl> result?
<mako> i believe i voted i favor of all three already
<dholbach> doorbell - brb
<sabdfl> i think it was a strong +1 across the board
<sabdfl> but it was smeared out over long enough that I might have missed some controversy
<elkbuntu> hrm. we may need a charter upgrade then, since we already have 3.
<sabdfl> 3 charters?
<dholbach> sabdfl: you're right - strong +1 across the board, but I'm a bit unsure about how we're moving on now
<elkbuntu> no, 3 members. 3+3 =6, our charter states 5 people for the council
<sabdfl> they can be added to the irc council team in LP with immediate effect, i think
<elkbuntu> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IrcTeam/IrcCouncil
<elkbuntu> # Consist of five (5) members. Membership should be public and published.
<sabdfl> good catch
<sabdfl> i don't mind amending it to "at least 5"?
<sabdfl> we could have a run-off election, BUT then we should have had 4 candidates for 2 places
<dholbach> me neither - having more members on board  might also help with getting meetings set up, etc.
<mako> i'm happy to vote for the "at least 5" amendment now
<dholbach> for the run-off election we'd need to decide on the voting process
<sabdfl> +1 from me then, too
<sabdfl> we don't have a "members team" for IRC, do we
<sabdfl> was there any output from the UDS conversation on that point?
<sabdfl> i think we should create that asap
<dholbach> no, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CommunityCouncil/Delegation is not really suitable for cases like this
<mako> i really don't see any reason why 5 is magic. perhaps we should ask ask the current members on the council if they a problem with it, i suppose
<elkbuntu> sabdfl, we have a few members teams for irc actually. irc ops, and irc council.
<sabdfl> there's a bit of a problem that the IRC council would appoint such members, who in turn would likely vote if we have IRC council member bakeoffs
<sabdfl> how big is irc ops?
<elkbuntu> mako, i suspect it's a matter of 'pick a non-even number'
<elkbuntu> or odd, if you so choose to be more succinct.
<yann2> hola... sorry:(
<yann2> did I miss the meeting then? :'(
<dholbach> sabdfl: we could task the new IRC Council with looking into a process for setting that team up, etc.
<elkbuntu> not entirely
 * yann2 from Oxford Archaeology - if the point can still be discussed :)
<sabdfl> yann2: we +1'd it
<sabdfl> you're all set
<dholbach> yann2: http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2008/12/16/%23ubuntu-meeting.txt should be updated in a bit
<elkbuntu> sabdfl, sec, i'm trying to find it on LP, and my connection seems to be sucking badly
<yann2> oh :) can I have an address to where to send the rss feed?
<sabdfl> just subscribe planet to a feed that requires a specific tag on those blog posts you want on planet
<sabdfl> not the whole blog
<dholbach> yann2: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/PlanetUbuntu
<sabdfl> yann2: you need an ubuntu member who can modify the bzr branch that contains the feed
<sabdfl> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/PlanetUbuntu/CorporateBlogs
<sabdfl> yann2: ^
<yann2> sabdfl > i read https://wiki.ubuntu.com/PlanetUbuntu/CorporateBlogs ; it will be a  tag on our platform - we agree to this
<sabdfl> i've updated the /talk page for the CC agenda to reflect today's decisions
<yann2> CC is also an option, I am an ubuntu member
<yann2> I can take responsibility for the blog, agree with the 3 months period, non advertising nature of the posts, and I believe we will demonstrate our interest :)
<sabdfl> dholbach: i think we want to have an "irc contributors" team, that is bigger than ops, and which is part of ubuntumembers
<sabdfl> thereby delegating some membership granting privileges to the irc council
<sabdfl> yann2: you already have!
<yann2> just for the final bits, how do I get the feed aggregated?
<sabdfl> dholbach: could you mail the IRC council, tell them of the new appointments and the "at least 5" amendment
<sabdfl> yann2: take that up separately, you just amend a file in a bzr branch
<dholbach> sabdfl: I agree - what do you think about deciding on the new irc council members now and let them figure out a good process for that team, set up documentation etc and talk about it in one of the next CC meetings?
<dholbach> sabdfl: sure
<sabdfl> dholbach: sure
<dholbach> hehe
<sabdfl> collision and meld!
<sabdfl> are we wrapped?
<elkbuntu> https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-irc is the 'all the ops' team. https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-irc-council is the council team. ... seems i forgot to count myself when i said 3 too :P
<yann2> sabdfl > any link to this? (sorry for all the off topic :( )
<sabdfl> yann2: OT
<sabdfl> Technoviking: happy?
<sabdfl> mako: aob?
<mako> not from me
<Technoviking> sabdfl: looks good here
 * dholbach will update the Team Report too
<sabdfl> wrapped
<sabdfl> thanks all
<sabdfl> cheers!
<Technoviking> thanks
<dholbach> thanks
 * sabdfl needs a quick shower before lunch :-)
<sabdfl> mako: thanks for hopping on despite timezones
<sabdfl> good to see you again!
<dholbach> the CC should probably own ~ubuntu-irc-council
<dholbach> I'll put that into the mail as well
<mako> no problem!
<sabdfl> dholbach: fixed :-)
<dholbach> hehe
<mako> great. i think i'm going to go back to sleep :)
<dholbach> mako: sleep tight
<mako> see y'all! :)
<[NikO]> hi there
<[NikO]> anyone one now when https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Membership/RegionalBoards/EMEA is the next meeting ?
* ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 16 Dec 16:00: Server Team | 16 Dec 17:00: Kernel Team | 17 Dec 16:00: Foundation Team | 17 Dec 17:00: QA Team | 18 Dec 12:00: Ubuntu Mobile Team | 18 Dec 14:00: Ubuntu Java
<sabdfl> hello all
<sabdfl> Keybuk: i think we're alone now...
<Keybuk> ?
<sabdfl> there doesn't seem to be anyone around
<Keybuk> should there be?
<sabdfl> isn't it a tech board meeting now?
<Keybuk> it's next week on my calendar
<Keybuk> though that might be mdz moving it
<sabdfl> ok, i'll get mdz to sort it out with clan
<sabdfl> sorry
<ogra> didnt you have a CC today ? :)
<sabdfl> for the Belinda Carlisle moment
 * jussi01 waves to sabdfl before he dispappears
<ogra> should be a good indicator ;)
<Keybuk> hmm, you know, I think mdz has moved it to next week
<Keybuk> mdz: ?
<sabdfl> he's on leave today
<jussi01> sabdfl: can you tell me the actual outcome RE: IRC council today? we were all elected?
<jussi01> s/tell/confirm/
<sabdfl> jussi01: yes, that's correct, and we amended the IRC Council charter to say "at least 5" members should be on the council
<sabdfl> dholbach will email the council
<jussi01> ok. excellent. Thanks very much
<dholbach> sabdfl, jussi01: I did mail the council
<jussi01> excellent. I guess none of them have been available to communicate the news to us
<dholbach> jussi01: to be fair - I mailed them like 2-3 hours ago
<jussi01> dholbach: true :)
<jussi01> sabdfl: dholbach thanks! :)
<dholbach> de rien
<stgraber> dholbach: heard too much french last week ?
<dholbach> stgraber: no - I can't remember the last time when I thought "this was too much French" :)
<jussi01> sabdfl: although I see a small issue with a 6 member council in that what do we do if there is a deadlock?
 * jussi01 is annoyed he fell asleep and missed the meeting - stupid meds
<sabdfl> jussi01: do you have a chairman?
<jussi01> sabdfl: not that I am aware of, although someone may correct me on this,  given its my first day.
<jussi01> And you do have an excellent point ;)
* ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Current meeting: Server Team Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 16 Dec 17:00: Kernel Team | 17 Dec 16:00: Foundation Team | 17 Dec 17:00: QA Team | 18 Dec 12:00: Ubuntu Mobile Team | 18 Dec 14:00: Ubuntu Java
<nijaba> @now paris
<ubottu> Current time in Europe/Paris: December 16 2008, 16:52:43 - Current meeting: Server Team
<nijaba> @schedule
<ubottu> Schedule for Etc/UTC: Current meeting: Server Team 16 Dec 17:00: Kernel Team | 17 Dec 16:00: Foundation Team | 17 Dec 17:00: QA Team | 18 Dec 12:00: Ubuntu Mobile Team | 18 Dec 14:00: Ubuntu Java
<nijaba> o/
<zul> hey people
<sommer> yo
<zul> lets get this thing started
<zul> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 10:00. The chair is zul.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<zul> welcome to the server team meeting i hope everyone's liver has recovered from uds
<Koon> o/
<sommer> :)
<zul> the agenda is at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/Meeting
<nijaba> my liver has not suffered as much as my internal clock ;)
<zul> [TOPIC] Review ACTION points from previous meeting
<MootBot> New Topic:  Review ACTION points from previous meeting
<zul> oh if anyone is wondering why I am chairing the meeting today is because mathias is on holiday and I was asked to do it
<zul> so I guess we will start off with mysql 5.1
<zul> mysql is still broken in jaunty so no progress has been made on this point
<zul> however I do have a list of packages that need to be transitioned to the new version of mysql if we decide to do it
<zul> nijaba: any action on the kvm help splitting into mutliple sub pages?
<nijaba> zul: its a following topic
<zul> ok
<nijaba> zul: I have made a proposal on the roadmap
<zul> ok we will discuss it next then :)
<nijaba> zul: I was hoping to get approval to procede today
<zul> kirkland: did you create a wiki page for encrypted home directories?
<kirkland> zul: not yet
<kirkland> zul: i'm really behind, at the moment
<zul> kirkland: okey dokie
<kirkland> zul is the meeting chair!  \o/
<zul> and lasty on the agenda from the previous meeting did anyone find dendrobates at UDS to get a beer?
<kirkland> zul: yessir
<zul> kirkland: lucky ;)
<sommer> I did and it was tasty
<nealmcb> I tried...
<zul> heh ok lets move on
<Koon> heh, nobody found *me*
<zul> yes but we heard you
<Koon> I heard me too :/
 * kirkland put a beer on Koon's bill
<zul> [TOPIC] Screen Profiles
<MootBot> New Topic:  Screen Profiles
<zul> so kirkland care to explain what Screen Profiles is about?
<kirkland> i'd like to point people to http://blog.dustinkirkland.com/2008/12/ubuntu-server-includes-window-manager.html for screen shots and a lenghty explanation
<kirkland> this came from a couple of conversations between myself and nijaba, and Daviey, kees, jdstrand, slangasek, and others
<kirkland> while the Ubuntu server doesn't include a graphical desktop, it does include a WINDOW MANAGER .....
<kirkland> which is, of course, screen
<kirkland> screen is capable of a lot more advanced features than those that it comes with turned on out of the box
<nealmcb> :)
<kirkland> (that was a very poor sentence ...)
<kirkland> anyway, consider what the desktop team does to Gnome to get it usable
<kirkland> some branding, theming, color tweaks, plugins on the task bars, accessibility keystrokes, etc.
<kirkland> i'm suggesting we do something of the same to screen
<kirkland> all of which is configurable through screenrc profiles
<kirkland> i suggest we ship some well-formed profiles
<kirkland> perhaps choose one safe one as a sane default
 * nijaba just loves it
<kirkland> and a utility for selecting, and/or building a profile from the ones we provide
<kirkland> i currently have implemented at least a beta
<zul> sounds neat
<kirkland> it's in my ppa
<kirkland> screenshots on the blog
<kirkland> package in REVU
<kirkland> hopefully it'll make Universe this week
<nijaba> kirkland: did you update your ppa with our latests changes?
<kirkland> nijaba: yes, i did
<nijaba> \o/
<kirkland> nijaba: i have a few questions about your keybindings
<kirkland> nijaba: but i did upload support for the .screenrc-profile bits
<kirkland> nijaba: allowing for local customizations
<nijaba> you mean the ones I came up with EARLY this morning?
<kirkland> nijaba: yeah ... ctrl-del seems like a counterintuitive way to "create" a new tab, for example
<nijaba> I agree that ctrl-del is not perfect for creating windows
<nijaba> I just hope that someone will come up with somthing better :)
<kirkland> nijaba: furthermore, i was thinking of a framework for keybindings
<zul> you can do it the nt way and do ctrl-alt-delete to login ;)
<kirkland> nijaba: similar to the framework we're using for the profile itself
<kirkland> nijaba: i think we should separate the configuration of key-shortcuts and screen layout
<nijaba> kirkland: ahah, interesting
<kirkland> nijaba: and allow for mixing and matching
<kirkland> nijaba: -> that, too, was a 1am hair brained idea ... haven't thought it through entirely
<zul> kirkland: is it getting any closer to getting in universe for winder testing?
<kirkland> zul: nxvl reviewed the package, had only one suggestion
<kirkland> zul: i fixed that suggestion, so i think it should be ready for upload later today
<kirkland> zul: and i'll tackle an archive admin ASAP
<zul> ok so
 * nealmcb updates https://help.ubuntu.com/community/ServerGUI to point to Dustin's server window manager page
<nijaba> kirkland: as you know, a share of my community time will be dedicated to it
<kirkland> zul: there's a project in LP, where people can file bugs/feature requests
<nijaba> nealmcb: it might be a bit too soon yet
<zul> ACTION: kirkland to upload screen profiles to universe
<kirkland> zul: there's one more thing
<nijaba> nealmcb: it's a functional prototype open for comment at the moment
<kirkland> zul: nijaba has an interesting idea, to take this to the next level ....
<zul> oh? what would that be?
<kirkland> zul: assuming we "prove" this technology is useful/popular, we could have users enter a screen session when they login, by default
<kirkland> zul: until that time, i think i'm going to add another binary utility to screen-profiles that allows the user to turn this on/off with a command
<nijaba> kirkland: you mean what I put in my blod post?
<zul> that might be a bit difficult to get use to
<nijaba> blog too
<kirkland> nijaba: right
<kirkland> nijaba: i think a utility, or a flag to select-screen-profile would be nice
<nijaba> http://nicolas.barcet.com/drupal/screen-by-default
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://nicolas.barcet.com/drupal/screen-by-default
<kirkland> nijaba: to add the lines to bashrc, or remove them
<kirkland> nijaba: we'll want to make that a one-liner, so it can be added/pruned easily
<kirkland> nijaba: which means another helper script
<nijaba> kirkland: yep, that would be nice
<nealmcb> nijaba: sure, but that is a pretty casual wiki page that needed at least a mention of screen.  The link to the blog will give a taste of things to come
<nijaba> kirkland: could'nt it be part of the same script?
<kirkland> nealmcb: that's fine by me, but this is very much in flux, fast moving at this point, so please just make sure you keep it up-to-date
<kirkland> nijaba: you mean select-screen-profile?
<zul> alrighty then
<nijaba> kirkland: yep
<kirkland> nijaba: yeah, it could be another question at the bottom
<kirkland> zul: so one more thing
<kirkland> zul: a request for the community ....
<kirkland> zul: if you have fun, interesting, useful screen "hacks", please share them!
<zul> sounds good to me
<zul> [ACTION] kirkland to upload screen profiles to universe
<MootBot> ACTION received:  kirkland to upload screen profiles to universe
<zul> [ACTION] nealmcb to update wiki page to keep it current
<MootBot> ACTION received:  nealmcb to update wiki page to keep it current
<nealmcb> :)
<zul> [ACTION] kirkland to send an email to ubuntu-server asking for interesting screenhacks
<MootBot> ACTION received:  kirkland to send an email to ubuntu-server asking for interesting screenhacks
<zul> kirkland: there is also some dot profile sites that have user contributed .screenrcs as well
 * nijaba thinks zul is having a lot of fun with his new bot :)
 * sommer was about to mention dotfiles.org
<zul> sommer: thats the site :)
<zul> alrighty then
<zul> [TOPIC] review KVM page refactoring
<MootBot> New Topic:  review KVM page refactoring
<zul> nijaba as you were saying
<nijaba> soren, has anyone got a chance to review my refactoring proposal on the roadmap?
<nijaba> err/soren/so
<nijaba> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/Roadmap#Refactor%20KVM%20wiki%20page
<nijaba> should I go ahead and reorganize accordingly?
<zul> i havent gone through it
<zul> sommer: ^^^
<sommer> looks good to me
<zul> soren: ^^^
<zul> so im assuming that everything is good on the documentation end then
<zul> going once
<zul> going twice
<zul> going thrice
<nijaba> ok, expect the refactoring to occur in the next couple weeks then ;)
<zul> [ACTION] nijaba to refactor the KVM documentation
<MootBot> ACTION received:  nijaba to refactor the KVM documentation
<zul> so next
<zul> [TOPIC] Open Discussion
<MootBot> New Topic:  Open Discussion
<zul> anyone have anything they want to talk about
<zul> what did people think of UDS?
<ogra> the weather ? :)
<nijaba> I just have a pre-announce to make
<Koon> ...
<nijaba> dendrobates will be sending an official announce of the ubuntu on ec2 beta later today \o/
<zul> yay
<Koon> ~o~
<sommer> very cool
<nijaba> watch your favorite ml...
<zul> so ok then Im assuming people liver's are still recovering
<nijaba> thanks to zul, soren, erichammond and many others putting this together
<zul> hey no problem
<zul> [TOPIC] Agree on next meeting date and time
<MootBot> New Topic:  Agree on next meeting date and time
<nealmcb> ebox
<zul> oh im sorry
<nealmcb> let me get the link
<nealmcb> https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ebox/+bug/255368
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 255368 in ebox "ebox: Depends: libapache-authcookie-perl but it is not installable " [Undecided,Confirmed]
<zul> yeah we discussed this at uds didnt we?
<nealmcb> right - so just a question of how to get it working
<nealmcb> more of the details are at https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ebox/+bug/273486
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 273486 in ebox "Current eBox packages in intrepid don't work at all (dup-of: 255368)" [Undecided,New]
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 255368 in ebox "ebox: Depends: libapache-authcookie-perl but it is not installable " [Undecided,Confirmed]
<sommer> the ebox ppa?
<nealmcb> the ppa has the whole new package, so wouldn't likely survive an sru review
<zul> it wont
<nealmcb> I'm guessing that pulling in the changes for the two issues noted in the 2nd bug would be the best approach
<zul> nealmcb: id suggest looking at the debian control file and see what it needs now
<nealmcb> and I put a comment at the bottom of the 1st bug noting the uds discussion
<zul> i might get a chance to look at it this afternoon
<zul> or if anyone from the community would like to look at it
<nealmcb> javier noted that the new package has an alternative for the libapache-authcookie-perl  package
<nealmcb> and for the changes to ldap
<nealmcb> as well as several new packages I think
<zul> well the only way to test this would be run it in a vm and see what goes on
<nealmcb> which would not be appropriate
<nealmcb> right
<zul> the new packages would not get in anyways
 * nealmcb nods
<zul> so the question is does anyone volunteer to look at these ebox bugs?
<sommer> sure
<nealmcb> so I guess the plan would be getting it working with those minimal patches in jaunty, then an sru, then a more complete merge of the new stuff from the ppa into jaunty?
<zul> nealmcb: that sounds like a plan
<zul> sommer: cool if you need sponsorship let me know and Ill be glad to help
<zul> [ACTION] sommer to look at fixing ebox for intrepid
<MootBot> ACTION received:  sommer to look at fixing ebox for intrepid
<zul> anyone else?
 * nealmcb cheers for sommer
<sommer> cool, I imagine I'll get stuck somewhere
<zul> sommer: yep just ask
<nealmcb> I would think foolano would be very helpful
<sommer> nealmcb: yeppers
<zul> [TOPIC] Agree on a next meeting date and time
<MootBot> New Topic:  Agree on a next meeting date and time
<zul> same bat time same bat channel?
 * sommer +1
<nijaba> +1
 * nealmcb nods
<Koon> I suspect I might be missing that one.
<zul> Koon: you are excused ;)
<zul> thanks everyone
 * nijaba may miss it as well, thinking about it...
<thomasgilling> Hello
<nijaba> thanks for chairing zul
<zul> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 10:42.
 * Daviey walks in late, stumbles across some chairs, sits down quietly and realises he is late and missed the meeting.
<thomasgilling> I am wondering if I could get my acount unblcoked?
<sommer> thanks zul
<thomasgilling> Is that possible?
<nijaba> thomasgilling: what account are you talking about?
<nealmcb> thomasgilling: have you asked in #ubuntu-ops?
<nijaba> Daviey: we missed you!
<thomasgilling> finalmacpro
<nijaba> thomasgilling: on launchpad?
<thomasgilling> no on ubuntu forums
<nealmcb> thomasgilling: you need to talk to the forums folks
<thomasgilling> How
<thomasgilling> I tryed they said go to a meeting
<thomasgilling> or something like that
<nealmcb> I suggest starting with https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ForumsGovernance
<nealmcb> thomasgilling: and see the meeting information at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ForumCouncil
<thomasgilling> I have seen that
<thomasgilling> it even siad to go to this IRC
<nealmcb> looks like the last meeting was earlier today.  we have lots of different meetings in this channel.  we just finished the server team meeting
<thomasgilling> when is the forum meeting's?
<nealmcb> that page says 1:00 UTC, which was a few hours ago
<thomasgilling> ok
* ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Current meeting: Kernel Team Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 17 Dec 16:00: Foundation Team | 17 Dec 17:00: QA Team | 18 Dec 12:00: Ubuntu Mobile Team | 18 Dec 14:00: Ubuntu Java
<pgraner> Its about time for the Kernel Team Weekly Meeting
 * smb_tp is there
 * cking is here
<pgraner> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 11:01. The chair is pgraner.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<pgraner> [TOPIC] UDS Wrap-up
<MootBot> New Topic:  UDS Wrap-up
<pgraner> I think UDS was good this year and we have lots of things for Jaunty
 * apw is here
 * sconklin is here
<pgraner> Improved Suspend/Resume, faster boot and other nice things
<pgraner> I'll be updating the roadmap and the individual specs this week
<pgraner> Do anyone have anything to add?
<rtg> there sure seems like there is a lot of work to do.
<apw> do we need to do anything with cking to ensure he is up to speed
<pgraner> apw: once the roadmap and specs are up to date we can start there
<rtg> like meet for a day at Millbank?
<apw> :)
<cking> yeah
<pgraner> I've started the specs and started updating the calendar
<apw> when might we expect to see the list of actions?
<pgraner> [LINK] http://www.google.com/calendar/embed?src=50d02kfdekgcjdcpc970hh83f0%40group.calendar.google.com&ctz=America/New_York
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://www.google.com/calendar/embed?src=50d02kfdekgcjdcpc970hh83f0%40group.calendar.google.com&ctz=America/New_York
<pgraner> hopefully tomorrow, if I can get off of conference calls :-)
<apw> cool, %s/apw/cking/ *innocent wistle*
<pgraner> [TOPIC] Jaunty
<MootBot> New Topic:  Jaunty
<pgraner> How are we looking for Alpha2 on Thurs?
<pgraner> rtg: ^^^^^^^^^^^?
<rtg> only have linux-meta left to upload.
<rtg> I'll get that done as soon as I check on LRM status
<pgraner> rtg: did we update the config based off the discussion at UDS?
<apw> rtg we may have to update the linux-libc-dev as per the patch on our list to fix the libdrm-dev collision
<rtg> its in the git repo. but won't make the A2 upload
<apw> i don't know if that needs to hit before -alpha2
<rtg> apw: I'll look at it later today
<smb_tp> I got some question for Amit about the current state of lpia kernels.
<rtg> smb_tp: he's in transit to India
<pgraner> smb_tp: get with sconklin, he is prob best to know
<smb_tp> pgraner, Ok. Thought that was a week later
<sconklin> smb_tp: I'll do the best I can.
<sconklin> and I know who else to ask
<smb_tp> sconklin, Ok, I guess we can sort it out. :)
<pgraner> ok let move on then
<pgraner> [TOPIC] Intrepid, Hardy and Older
<MootBot> New Topic:  Intrepid, Hardy and Older
<pgraner> smb_tp: how we looking? Whats in the pipe?
<smb_tp> I am still needing to bug archive admins about the hardy-proposed
<smb_tp> Otherwise there is nothing for older
<pgraner> smb_tp: ok, sounds good
<smb_tp> Intrepid, I believe rtg had the last bigger -stable upload done
<pgraner> [TOPIC] Meeting Schedule for the Holidays
<MootBot> New Topic:  Meeting Schedule for the Holidays
<rtg> I'm close to uploading Intrepid which contains all stable updates through 2.6.27.9
<pgraner> rtg: cool, when will you be handing off to smb_tp ?
<rtg> right afterwards.
<smb_tp> We planned to .... yeah...
<pgraner> rtg: great
<pgraner> Canonical is off for the Holidays over the next two scheduled meetings. So I propose we resume on 6 Jan 2009.
<pgraner> Any objections?
<cking> Sounds good
<rtg> wfm
<apw> ok with me
<pgraner> Ok, I'll update the online schedule and cals/wiki
<smb_tp> ok for me. Rest of that day is a holiday in my parts of germany but i'll tune in
<pgraner> [MISC Topics]
<pgraner> [TOPIC] Misc Topics
<MootBot> New Topic:  Misc Topics
 * pgraner is still jet lagged
<pgraner> How is kernel mode setting looking for .28?
 * apw isn't aware if its in or not
<rtg> no info.
<rtg> I don't remember seeing it as one of the config options.
<pgraner> can someone take a looking into it and let me know. I need to let the Desktop guys know, they are asking and we missed each other at UDS.
<apw> there looks to be some stuff in the kernel for it, all preparitory nothing obvious as the change to date
<rtg> I think .29 was the target for full KMS
<pgraner> ok, if someone could follow up with an email after poking around.
<apw> rtg you or i can do it
<pgraner> apw: you guys can sort it out
<rtg> apw: then I pick you :)
 * apw figures
 * rtg is lazy
<apw> on my list
<pgraner> Anyone else have anything, or other topics?
 * cking thinks rtg is missing a learning opportunity
 * rtg is suffering from LRM build-itis
 * pgraner thought it was Alzheimers
<apw> lol
 * rtg wonders why he gets so much grief for simply having survived longer then anyone else?
<apw> take it as a compliment :)
<apw> pgraner, you may ACTION me on that mode setting thing
<pgraner> [ACTION] apw to email pgraner about upstream status of kernel mode setting
<MootBot> ACTION received:  apw to email pgraner about upstream status of kernel mode setting
<pgraner> if now one else has anything then I think we can call this one quits
<apw> nothing here
<rtg> everybody get back to work.
<smb_tp> nope
<apw> *crack*
<pgraner> Ok... later then
<pgraner> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 11:25.
* ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Current meeting: Kernel Team Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 17 Dec 16:00: Foundation Team | 17 Dec 17:00: QA Team | 18 Dec 12:00: Ubuntu Mobile Team | 18 Dec 14:00: Ubuntu Java | 07 Jan 03:00: America's Council
* ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 17 Dec 16:00: Foundation Team | 17 Dec 17:00: QA Team | 18 Dec 12:00: Ubuntu Mobile Team | 18 Dec 14:00: Ubuntu Java | 07 Jan 03:00: America's Council | 13 Jan 21:00: LoCo Council
<lukjad007> Is there a meeting going on tonight?
<[NikO]> hi
<[NikO]> i can't find the date of next Europe council
<nhandler> lukjad007: No meeting tonight. There is a Foundation Team meeting tomorrow though
<lukjad007> I was asking because there was supposed to be one yesterday and no one showed.
<nhandler> [NikO]: It doesn't appear that there is an EMEA membership meeting scheduled yet. However, chances are, it will not be until after the holidays (since they already held one in December)
<[NikO]> chances or not :), ok, thanks for the information :)
<lukjad007> See ya.
* ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 17 Dec 16:00: Foundation Team | 17 Dec 17:00: QA Team | 18 Dec 12:00: Ubuntu Mobile Team | 18 Dec 14:00: Ubuntu Java | 18 Dec 23:00: Forum Council | 07 Jan 03:00: America's Council
#ubuntu-meeting 2008-12-17
* ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Current meeting: Foundation Team Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 17 Dec 17:00: QA Team | 18 Dec 12:00: Ubuntu Mobile Team | 18 Dec 14:00: Ubuntu Java | 18 Dec 23:00: Forum Council | 07 Jan 03:00: America's Council
<evand> hello
<robbiew> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 09:57. The chair is robbiew.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<robbiew> hello evand :)
 * robbiew starts early, so mootbot can grab all attendees
<liw> hi
<robbiew> howdy [):-)
 * robbiew reads the onslaught of activity reports
<robbiew> lol
<Keybuk> _o/
<robbiew> mvo, slangasek: here?
 * mvo waves
 * robbiew invokes the 5min rule...and begins meeting
<robbiew> only have a few agenda items...and I apologize for not sending it out
<robbiew> [TOPIC] UDS...fill in those Specs!!!
<MootBot> New Topic:  UDS...fill in those Specs!!!
<Keybuk> what's the deadline for that?
<robbiew> heh...good question
<cjwatson> before the Christmas break if at all possible
<robbiew> in an ideal world, I'd like them ready for some cozy reading over break
<cjwatson> the feature development cycle is short enough as it is :-/
<robbiew> right
 * mvo nods
<cjwatson> also a minor plea
<cjwatson> please remember to set the status of the spec to something other than Discussion
<cjwatson> I was going through today looking for reviewable stuff and ended up just opening all the wiki pages
<cjwatson> while there actually were a few that were worth reviewing
<cjwatson> are there any session videos from UDS that I should particularly make an effort to watch? :-)
<robbiew> all
<robbiew> :P
<liw> have any of the videos been made available yet?
<robbiew> I doubt it
<cjwatson> simple arithmetic suggests that all => about five weeks viewing time ;-)
<cjwatson> (assuming I were to watch all the tracks, since not everything was on foundations ...)
<Pici> Some of the videos are uploaded http://videos.ubuntu.com/uds/jaunty
<cjwatson> even for just foundations I don't intend to spend a week watching them all ;-)
<evand> Do note that there wasn't a video camera in every room.  The community rooms (where we held the Wubi and usb-creator discussions) did not have cameras.
<robbiew> right...but those sessions were small enough, so that at least good notes should exist...somewhere
<evand> And I don't recall there being one in the room next to Foundations, which is where we held the ubiquity session.
<evand> indeed :)
 * robbiew assumes...which isn't always good
 * robbiew looks at videos
<robbiew> hmm...too bad they don't stream
<robbiew> in any case...I suppose we can move on
<robbiew> [TOPIC] Holidays
<MootBot> New Topic:  Holidays
<robbiew> pretty simple...make sure you've spent your days :)
<robbiew> I've just updated the Foundations google calendar
<Keybuk> I have two days spare
<robbiew> with what I have listed in the admin tool
<Keybuk> well, one day of holiday spare
<robbiew> ah
<Keybuk> and the swap day from Sunday@FOSScamp
<cjwatson> I have 1.5 I believe
<Keybuk> err, Saturday@FOSScamp
<liw> I should be all depleted
<robbiew> ok
 * mvo should be ok now too
<robbiew> ;)
<slangasek> robbiew: hi, sorry
<robbiew> hi..np, I didn't send an agenda
<robbiew> so no worries
<robbiew> just covered getting spec in by christmas
<robbiew> and onto making sure everyone fills in holiday requests
 * evand is running on empty holidays (aside from the ones set aside for the required Christmas holiday)
<Keybuk> actually, I think I snuck a couple of days extra off, but can't remember when
<Keybuk> so I might keep my spare holiday just in case Claire remembers <g>
<robbiew> lol...well it's documented now
<robbiew> :P
<robbiew> though I doubt she reviews mootbot logs
<robbiew> that's all I really have
<robbiew> [TOPIC] AOB
<MootBot> New Topic:  AOB
<cjwatson> do we believe that there is somebody explicitly responsible for drafting every spec?
<cjwatson> I noticed a lot of them didn't have drafters set
<robbiew> good point
<cjwatson> (sorry to bang on about specs ...)
 * robbiew has no problems randomly assigning >)
<evand> I need to set myself as drafting on a few.
<mvo> I will check the ones I'm involved with and make sure I'm drafter there
<robbiew> I would assume that if you led the session, you should be the drafter...but I'm a newbie
<robbiew> so that might not always be the case
<slangasek> I was assuming that's the case for my sessions
<cjwatson> that makes sense unless there was another secretary nominated
<robbiew> no..we weren't that lucky
<robbiew> [ACTION] All Specs ready by December 25th
<MootBot> ACTION received:  All Specs ready by December 25th
<Keybuk> though it means sometimes the person who led the session can't remember what they said :p
<robbiew> well, I think the gobby session for boot performance has the main points from our session
<robbiew> but I can't say they all are that well written ;)
<slangasek> Keybuk: you're in luck, there are also unintelligible videos that you can strain to listen to because no one was pointing the camera in the right direction! ;)
<Keybuk> heh
<robbiew> yeah...I tried to in the small number that I recorded...but it was difficult
<robbiew> viewer can get dizzy in the back and forth conversations across the room :P
<robbiew> only took me 3 days to discover that I should move the camera...duh
<robbiew> Thurs and Friday have better viewing angles...not sure about audio
<robbiew> which is probably more important :P
<robbiew> ok...thinking we can end this one
<robbiew> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 10:27.
<slangasek> ok, thanks
<evand> thanks
<liw> I'm not sure the videos are worth the effort and the impact they have on people by their presence... audio would work much better if done via several mics and without video
<robbiew> right
<liw> but thanks for the short meeting :)
<cjwatson> the audio was actually surprisingly good
<cjwatson> once the volume was turned up
<Keybuk> liw: the original idea was that by having the camera, you'd get good audio out of it
<cjwatson> I could follow that quite well remotely
<Keybuk> at less of a cost than live mixing multiple mikes
<mvo> yeah, the mic on the camera was pretty amazing
<cjwatson> was the mic on the camera what I was listening to over icecast?
<evand> Doesn't jokosher do live mixing?
<Keybuk> you'd need someone with a laptop, and the multiple mikes plugged into it, etc.
<liw> Keybuk, I'm in over my head on this, but it should be possible to set the mics up so they're mixed automatically (for streaming), and recorded individually (for later editing, if necessary), but one good mic that covers the whole room would work too, I guess
<Keybuk> liw: the "one good mic" strategy has never worked for us
<Keybuk> multiple mics just produce echo and distortion
<Keybuk> or everyone sounds equally bad
<Keybuk> having a directed mic actually seems to have been an improvement
<Keybuk> with the disadvantage that someone has to point it at people
<robbiew> right
<robbiew> and those who don't want to be filmed...cannot be heard
<Keybuk> yeah, the original plan wasn't to actually use the video feed
<Keybuk> the camera was just so you could be sure who you were pointing it at (by looking in the display)
<Keybuk> but jono went "ooh, camera, live streaming, RAH!"
<robbiew> oh..didn't know that
<cjwatson> I thought Mark had asked for full video
<robbiew> i wonder if we can get access to videos.ubuntu.com...I'd be happy to rename videos to sessions
<mvo> good idea
 * robbiew checks to see if he can get access
<Keybuk> cjwatson: no, video was never a Mark requirement
<Keybuk> robbiew: it's rookery, isn't it?
<robbiew> I dunno
<robbiew> lol
<robbiew> checking with Elmo now
<Keybuk> /srv/video.ubuntu.com/uds/jaunty
<Keybuk> err
<Keybuk> /srv/video.ubuntu.com/www/uds/jaunty
<Keybuk> warthogs seems to have write permission
<robbiew> thnx
* ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Current meeting: QA Team Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 18 Dec 12:00: Ubuntu Mobile Team | 18 Dec 14:00: Ubuntu Java | 18 Dec 23:00: Forum Council | 07 Jan 03:00: America's Council
<heno> hello!
<davmor2> hi
<pedro_> hey hey
<schwuk> hi
<bdmurray> hello
 * ogasawara waves
<cr3> yo
<heno> ara, sbeattie: ping
<sbeattie> hey!
<heno> I don't see ara on IRC
<heno> ok, let's start
<heno> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 11:03. The chair is heno.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<heno> Jaunty spec review - All specs should have drafters and assignees by the end of the meeting and we should aim to have them drafted and approved by Dec. 24th.
<heno> working from http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-jaunty/bavorr/
<schwuk> Are there any specs that didn't get covered at UDS?
<heno> I want to check assignees, drafters, status (should be Drafting or better)
<heno> schwuk: we should look for that too, at the end I think
<heno> also we should take a view on whether the priority is about right
<heno> * qa-upstream-kernel-bugs
 * ogasawara is the drafter and assignee
<cr3> I have just added myself as the assignee to: Elevate checkbox privileges with policykit
<heno> and I guess some work has started, but it still needs some drafting?
<cr3> bdmurray: you might like to have a look at: https://blueprints.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/qa-needs-packaging-bugs
<heno> cr3: thanks, and schwuk is drafter, makes sense
<ogasawara> heno: yes, I still need to clean up the spec/wiki
<heno> in reality several people will coordinate the drafting and implementation of most of the specs
<cr3> is it possible and/or does it make sense to have multiple drafters?
<schwuk> cr3: I think it's intentional to ensure responsibility
<heno> cr3: not in LP
<heno> right
<heno> * qa-cert-testing-proposed
<heno> I'll help draft that one ^
<heno> though the responsibility lies with cr3 ;)
<cr3> heno: one implication we might want to consider, perhaps for the future, is when hardware specific drivers are updated that systems matching that hardware should be tested
<heno> ogasawara has agreed to drive LP - can you set all these to drafting?
<ogasawara> heno: so I just looked at https://blueprints.edge.launchpad.net/certify-web/+spec/qa-cert-testing-proposed and apparently I don't have the option to set the status
<heno> * qa-needs-packaging-bugs
<heno> ah, iz a checkbox project
<cr3> heno: in the case of qa-cert-testing-proposed, should we make an exception and leave the status to "Started"
<heno> for implementation status, yes - for definition status it should be Drafting
<ogasawara> cr3: can you flip that from Discussion to Drafting?  Since apparently I don't have the permissions.
<cr3> done for both definition and implementation status
<heno> schwuk/cr3: can you drive status on the checkbox specs?#
<schwuk> heno: sure
<cr3> schwuk: just so that we don't step on each other's feet, mind if I set the status of all checkbox blueprints to drafting?
<heno> we should move those over to be Ubuntu specs IMO
<heno> that will simplify tracking too
<schwuk> heno: I'm fine with that
<heno> schwuk: ok, please go ahead with that
<heno> * qa-needs-packaging-bugs
<bdmurray> I believe its all set
<ogasawara> yup, looks good
<heno> no approver though
<cr3> heno: you volunteering? :)
<heno> I'll volunteer ;)
<bdmurray> done
<heno> JauntySchedule isn't a spec
<heno> should have been just a UDS 'discussion' session
<heno> * qa-expand-checkbox-coverage
<heno> looks fine
<heno> as does qa-portal
<cr3> should qa-expand-checkbox-coverage somehow be linked as a dependency on the policy-kit spec?
<cr3> err, "add dependency" I mean
<heno> * jaunty-regression-management needs work
<heno> cr3: makes sense
<cr3> qa-checkbox-policykit is returning a page not found for me
<cr3> both on edge and non-edge, someone renamed it?
<heno> schwuk: can you update the wiki links too?
<sbeattie> heno: right, that was mostly a discussion session, I tried to roll action items from that into the regression-tracker spec, but I'm double-checking our notes to see if there's anything there that should be separate.
<cr3> weird, the url for qa-checkbox-policykit has changed from being under the "checkbox" project to the "launchpad" project. schwuk, did you change anything?
<heno> some parts might go on the package spec too, but I think we need an overview spec
<heno> the LDTP-checkbox spec is similar
<heno> they can be 'informational' specs
<schwuk> cr3: launchpad is being stupid - I retargeted the specs to ubuntu as requested by heno, and lp has attached them to Launchpad instead.
<cr3> "add dependency" doesn't seem to find qa-checkbox-policykit :(
<heno> it's useful for tracking our progress even if there is little code implementation to be done
<schwuk> cr3: Probably because it's been moved.
<cr3> schwuk: I'm using the "choose" menu, it should still find the keywords "checkbox" and "policykit"
<schwuk> cr3: retargeted them to checkbox until I figure out what LP is doing wrong.
<heno> ok
<heno> * apport-retracer-maintenance is pitti's I guess
<schwuk> cr3: you can't add dependecies outside of a project - until they are targetted to ubuntu, we won't be able to link them
<cr3> schwuk: launchpad still can't seem to find it. not a huge deal, we'll survive without the dependency link
<cr3> schwuk: ah, subtle, thanks for the insider info
<heno> * package-status-pages
* ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Current meeting: QA Team Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 18 Dec 12:00: Ubuntu Mobile Team | 18 Dec 14:00: Ubuntu Java | 18 Dec 23:00: Forum Council | 07 Jan 03:00: America's Council | 13 Jan 21:00: LoCo Council
<ogasawara> Definition should probably change from Discussion to Approved?
<heno> bdmurray: ^ ?
<heno> are all the changes speced and agreed upon?
<bdmurray> Drafting again I think -> the discussion from UDS isn't there
<ogasawara> ah true, I'll go through our gobby notes and update
<bdmurray> nor the prioritization
<heno> right
<heno> ogasawara: sorry ;)
<heno> (we recycled the spec so it will need some updating)
<heno> * qa-jaunty-regression-tracker
<sbeattie> needs a priority
<sbeattie> do you want jaunty-regression-management to depend on this?
<heno> sbeattie: yes
<bdmurray> Then this one should probably be essential?
<heno> sbeattie: can I set you as drafter?
<sbeattie> heno: I've set that
<heno> essential> I would agree
<heno> * qa-bug-patch-workflow
<heno> I'll be approver
<ogasawara> done
<heno> * qa-gnome-desktop-testing
<ogasawara> Priority?
<heno> High IMO
<ara> heno: I am already the drafter, I think
<heno> right
<bdmurray> high sounds good
<bdmurray> who is this mentor person?
<ara> bdmurray: no idea, he has 0 karma
<heno> does CheckboxTestDefinition have an LP entry?
<cr3> a blueprint?
<ara> qa-checkbox-test-definition
<cr3> hm, that blueprint needs lots of info. shall I assign myself as the drafter and assignee, heno as the approver?
<heno> cr3: please do
<heno> * x-testing-infrastructure is bryce's
<heno> * qa-checkbox-bug-filing
<heno> Medium?
<ara> yes, i was thinking that too
<cr3> heno: can I be the assignee for that one?
<cr3> I'd be inclined towards high priority, but I'm biased :)
<ogasawara> schwuk, cr3:  can one of you set the Priority
<ara> heno, btw, the qa track was unofficially called the checkbox track :D
<heno> so I've been told :)
<heno> cr3: I'm fine with assigning it to you; we'll let schwuk draft it though
<heno> and I think Medium is fine
<cr3> heno: agreed and priority set to medium
<heno> * qa-jaunty-isotracker
<heno> broken LP link as well
<bdmurray> https://blueprints.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu-qa-website/+spec/qa-jaunty-isotracker
<heno> stgraber: around?
<heno> he should be drafter and assignee IMO
<heno> I can approve
<heno> Medium priority
<heno> stgraber: shout later if you disagree :)
<bdmurray> heno: Medium really?
<bdmurray> The isotracker hasn't seen any updates in quite a while
<bdmurray> and some of the functionality discussed is rather important
<heno> bdmurray: right, but it still works fairly well already
<ara> on-progress feature!
<ara> I am going to make a t-shirt
<bdmurray> that doesn't change the priority of the improvements though
<heno> Hm, let's get stgraber's view it - I'd be happy with High also
<heno> * qa-hardware-test-result-publication
<heno> schwuk: should this be assigned to you?
<heno> It builds on the reporting work you did
<schwuk> heno: yes
<heno> ok, thx
<heno> * qa-checkbox-hardware-reporting
<cr3> schwuk: (by the way, heno and I had an idea that the report should provide a link to a directory where information dumps should as dmidecode should be made available. just something to keep in mind)
<heno> schwuk: drafter and assignee for qa-checkbox-hardware-reporting as well?
<schwuk> cr3: which spec was that in relation to?
<schwuk> heno: please
<cr3> schwuk: qa-checkbox-hardware-reporting
<heno> * qa-sru-process-streamline
<schwuk> cr3: got you
<heno> I've asked pedro to draft this and sbeattie to implement
<heno> should be High priority (at least)
<heno> views?
<pedro_> heno: agreed, i'll set the priority if no one else object
<cr3> heno: agreed on the "at least" part too
<heno> ok
<heno> * hardware-certification-kvm-access
<schwuk> The re-targeting to ubuntu problem has been determined to be a bug, and filed accordingly. I'm subscribed to it, and I've subscribed heno as well: https://bugs.launchpad.net/blueprint/+bug/309048
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 309048 in blueprint "Cannot retarget to ubuntu" [Undecided,New]
<heno> should also be High IMO
<ogasawara> +1
<heno> * qa-testscase-wiki
<heno> priority of that - Medium?
<ara> heno: high? we have the wiki already, we need to start moving testcases and get people used to the new one
<heno> ok, I can be persuaded of that too :)
<heno> that's it for the scheduled list!
<heno> there are also a few others
<heno> pedro_, you are assigned to some on the community track?
<heno> and we've mentioned the LDTP spec
<heno> is that it for QA specs?
<heno> (community track>making bug jams rock)
<pedro_> heno: no that i know, but i'll follow up with dholbach since he was in charge of that session
<bdmurray> https://blueprints.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/smoketesting ?
<davmor2> bdmurray: I was about to brink that one up :)
<heno> excellent - I can be approver there too
<heno> let's work on drafting this week and next for those who are around
<bdmurray> Shouldn't the smoketesting one have some discussion?
<heno> I'll approve between bites of Xmas turkey :)
<davmor2> bdmurray: yes
<heno> on the qa list perhaps
<davmor2> although I hope I have explained it well enough for it to be a yes or no discussion
<heno> davmor2: can you mention it there and ask for feedback?
<davmor2> heno: no probs but I need to dash soon xmas bash
<heno> any other business?
<pedro_> just one
<pedro_> from me at least
<bdmurray> davmor2: If you could clarify whether you mean install from daily images or just running the devel release that would be helpful.
<pedro_> jcastro just announced (few mins ago) the second Ubuntu Global Bug Jam: http://castrojo.wordpress.com/2008/12/17/announcing-the-next-ubuntu-global-bug-jam/
<pedro_> it's going to happen between the 20 and 22 of February
<heno> (should be installing from images)
<heno> pedro_: cool!
<pedro_> so start to contact your Loco Team and collect some ideas (easy tasks) for that day
<pedro_> we're collecting easy bug lists here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Bugs/EasyTasks/
<davmor2> either if you have the time install from scratch if you don't a quick-ish update was my thinking as long as before you run the test it is the latest daily release as a minimum
<pedro_> feel free to start adding more there, it will be reflected on the GBJ page
<heno> I guess this makes your spec 'started' :)
<heno> let's wrap up the meeting
<heno> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 12:12.
<heno> thanks everyone!
<pedro_> thanks you
<ara> thanks
<ara> sorry all about being late
<davmor2> thanks
* ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 18 Dec 12:00: Ubuntu Mobile Team | 18 Dec 14:00: Ubuntu Java | 18 Dec 23:00: Forum Council | 07 Jan 03:00: America's Council | 13 Jan 21:00: LoCo Council
* ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 18 Dec 12:00: Ubuntu Mobile Team | 18 Dec 14:00: Ubuntu Java | 18 Dec 23:00: Forum Council | 05 Jan 20:00: EMEA Membership | 07 Jan 03:00: America's Council | 13 Jan 21:00: LoCo Council
#ubuntu-meeting 2008-12-18
* ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Current meeting: Ubuntu Mobile Team Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 18 Dec 14:00: Ubuntu Java | 18 Dec 23:00: Forum Council | 05 Jan 20:00: EMEA Membership | 07 Jan 03:00: America's Council | 13 Jan 21:00: LoCo Council
<lool> Hey
 * persia peers about
<davidm> Hello
<davidm> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 06:00. The chair is davidm.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<davidm> First meeting we have had in 2 weeks, Travel, FOSSCamp and UDS blocked the last two.
<davidm> lool, StevenK persia ogra you about?
<lool> (I think the Current meeting link is broken)
 * StevenK is mostly here
<lool> ogra is VAC
<lool> StevenK: at the party?  :)
<StevenK> lool: I'm home, but a large amount of beer was drunk
<StevenK> (By me)
 * persia waves
<davidm> lool, it is go in by date and page is there.
<lool> davidm: Yeah, got it
<lool> davidm: Just wanted to raise the current meeting link which I'm not sure how t ofix
<lool> There are a couple of things I'd like to discuss but I didn't write in the agenda
<lool> Basically boils down to deliverables for alphas and prioritization of our tasks
<davidm> That is good, menu is now fixed
<lool> Thanks!
<davidm> Just reload it.
<davidm> Did we have any old business that was not UDS related?  I don't think so.
<lool> Don't think so either
<lool> actually we had an alpha 1 item
<lool> Which was a good thing to raise by persia
<persia> Which was that?
<lool> persia: You raised before UDS the topic of alpha 1 testing
<persia> Oh :)  That's obsolete.
<lool> And I think it was an excellent point; what I'd like to bring up today is... alpha 2 and 3 :)
<persia> We ought do some alpha 2 testing, but given the expected seed changes, I'm not expecting us to have something installable until Alpha 3.
<davidm> Apparently ogra got the UMPC image built and some testing last night
<StevenK> Yes.
<StevenK> This makes me unhappy.
<lool> davidm: [topic] alpha 2 and 3 images perhaps?
<StevenK> I was hoping to ignore UMPC until we got the new one building
<StevenK> Now I have work to undo
<lool> StevenK: I think we will rename it back, wont we?
<davidm> [topic]  alpha 2 and 3 images
<MootBot> New Topic:   alpha 2 and 3 images
<StevenK> lool: Rename it back?
<lool> StevenK: My understanding is that we'd change umpc to focus on UNR apps incrementally
<lool> StevenK: Rename to netbook
<davidm> We still don't have ARM far enough to make images
<StevenK> We don't have a livefs builder yet
<lool> davidm: That's actually a question I had; for what devices should we be aiming ARM images at?  I think we want to start with desktop ASAP, but we need working kernels
<persia> lool, Why does device matter?  I thought we agreed no kernels on ARM images for now.
<davidm> We do, we will have devices shortly that will be our target
<lool> In general, kernel issues are holding us on 3 fronts: lpia out of date, real hardware armel flavours (well we have n810), and virtual images (current doesn't work in qemu)
<lool> persia: We do need to test them and have kernels for them
<lool> persia: The fact that there's no kernel in them is just a technical format matter, but we will offer the kernel for download I guess
<persia> True.  For that, we'll need the image-wedger program
<cjwatson> StevenK: at least the work I did in support of ogra was needed anyway and will transfer easily to whatever the new name is
<davidm> For "today" yes N810 is a good target, I hope by next week and certainly by Jan we will have different hardware.
<lool> StevenK, ogra: did you guys try the ubuntu n8x0 armel kernel on n8x0 already?
<cjwatson> persia: err so does that mean you don't want d-i for armel? (I talked about this on the phone with David yesterday and I thought we still did even if there will certainly be some devices that can't install that way.)
 * persia looks up the session notes
<StevenK> I think we do.
<StevenK> I even spent time fixing it.
<cjwatson> d-i needs a kernel. Can perfectly well be several kernels with several d-i images resulting from them.
<persia> I'm fairly sure we want d-i, but I'm not sure about d-i kernel modules.
<cjwatson> you can't run d-i without kernel bits.
<davidm> We know some can't but we think most can, so we want it in my mind.
<lool> cjwatson: This is what we noted as first goal images in our discussion:
<lool> * Jaunty vfat images, kernel-less - live ubuntu-desktop - d-i ubuntu-server
<lool> (mobile-arm-images in gobby)
<davidm> unless proven otherwise
<cjwatson> I appreciate the targets but the last two are likely to be sort of backwards. Server-style images are a lot easier to get going
<lool> cjwatson: What we didn't really discuss (by lack of understanding I guess) was how the d-i images would look like; we knew about tftp boot support and the like
<cjwatson> note that there are two separate issues that it's important not to conflate: the kernel d-i boots with, and the kernel it installs
<cjwatson> (if any)
<lool> cjwatson: Our main concern was not having to build too many individual images, yet supporting many devices with as little kernels as possible but still a bunch
<persia> Well, and not actually including a full set of kernels and initrds for space reasons.
<lool> That was another reason indeed
<lool> cjwatson: I think we didn't really discuss who would do what or how the images would exactly be used / look like
<lool> cjwatson: I understand there are many ways to distribute / launch d-i
<StevenK> My plan was to kick livecd-rootfs to just not install a kernel
<cjwatson> I'm just concerned that you're saying we shouldn't do work that to some extent has already been done
<davidm> I see bug #308465 has all bits marked Fix Released. So di is no longer blocked is that correct?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 308465 in uboot-mkimage "MIR for slugimage, uboot-mkimage and apex" [Undecided,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/308465
<lool> StevenK: That part was the clear one for the desktop images; what we really didn't set straight is how exactly people would use the live images, how they'd combine with a kernel and all
<lool> Because this is highly device specific
<cjwatson> davidm: right, just waiting for it to build now; I asked for a build score bump earlier
<davidm> thanks cjwatson
<lool> cjwatson: What do you mean we shouldn't do work?
<cjwatson> lool: well, there's already a set of kernels, d-i is already set up to use them ... and people are saying "no kernels on ARM images for now". So as an installer guy I am hopelessly confused about what y'all actually want
<davidm> I think until we have some actual real hardware we are going to have questions (confusion), by the new year (possibly as early as next week) we will have some hardware.
<persia> cjwatson, Looking through the notes in the mobile-arm-images gobby document, I believe you're not alone
<lool> cjwatson: Ok; the concerns is that there are like let's say 7 or 8 planned kernel flavours; what are you building per kernel right now and what would you recommend we build don't build?
<davidm> Once we have that we can do some actual testing and remove confusion.
<cjwatson> lool: I'm just building d-i for all the available kernels
<lool> cjwatson: What I think is that the image format will depend on the target device
<cjwatson> which I think makes sense until I hear otherwise
<lool> cjwatson: If you don't mind doing that for 7/8 kernels that's fine
<StevenK> cjwatson: Sure, but do we make images for 8 kernel flavours?
<persia> cjwatson, From what I'm seeing, I think we want d-i bits for all the available kernels, although those might not actually appear in the downloaded images
<cjwatson> StevenK: in many cases I expect that the stuff d-i spits out will be sufficient / all you can actually use anyway
<lool> cjwatson: I have an example which perhaps shows how unclear it is to me what output d-i should produce for all 7/8 kernels: I have a thecus N2100; it doesn't have any display, so it should be installed over SSH; to install is, one points the pre-loaded original linux install at a "firmware upgrade file" which is just a d-i image signed specially
<lool> cjwatson: We probably want to offer such an image to allow installation on these devices, but this is only needed for this device, only for a kernel flavour
<davidm> separate but related issue: cjwatson on our call yesterday you described a method of getting around the issue of the device that will not boot without jtag for updates, can you explain here again please (for the record) thanks
 * persia notes that d-i as a set of components differs from a "d-i image" which is a misnomer for the alternate images.
<lool> (in my case, the signed image contains a kernel and an initrd)
<cjwatson> persia: and from a "d-i image" which is one of the objects d-i spits out that lives in archive.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/dists/DIST/main/installer-ARCH/
<lool> cjwatson: Say a device supports installation from USB mass storage; are we going to provide a vfat image suitable to be dd-ed on USB key?  Does d-i output that for all kernel flavours?
<cjwatson> lool: well, d-i's perfectly capable of producing different form factors for different kernels, and indeed I think already does
<cjwatson> ./iop32x/netboot.cfg:10:# Thecus N2100
<cjwatson> i.e. it already deals with your device
<cjwatson> but just for one kernel
<lool> (hmm no installer-armel yet on http://ports.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-ports/dists/jaunty/main/)
<cjwatson> davidm: for that, I suggested that we could install kboot, which is a Linux kernel with an initramfs that parses a bootloader-a-like configuration file and then kexecs the real image
<cjwatson> I think the new generation of kboot (which we use on ps3) is petitboot
<cjwatson> but same basic idea
<cjwatson> lool: awaiting build
<lool> cjwatson: Ok; so basically we aimed at not building useless images and not building a huge number of big images; if d-i is already well behaved enough that just enabling it to build on all the kernel flavours will DTRT, that's perfect :)
<StevenK> lool: d-i was depwait due to things needing to be promoting
<lool> arf petitboot
<cjwatson> lool: I'd hope so, quite a bit of work has been done in Debian on d-i/arm
<davidm> cjwatson, thanks.
<cjwatson> lool: ?
<lool> cjwatson: arf == lol
<lool> Just found the name cute
<cjwatson> ah
<davidm> OK so we don't have images for ARM yet, but should have one for Alpha 3
<davidm> We have the UMPC image that will be renamed by Alpha 3
<StevenK> We have MID images -- albeit with 2.6.27
<StevenK> And no d-i due to the the kernel, either
<lool> davidm: Concerning the ARM images, which one should we test in priority?
<davidm> UMPC was given some testing last night, can someone else besides ogra grab it and do some more testing please?
<lool> s/one/ones
<lool> davidm: Ok; I'll take that
<davidm> lool, for now I think N810 as everyone has the device, as soon as everyone has the next device we use it.
 * davidm lool to grab the UMPC image and test.
<davidm> [action] lool to grab the UMPC image and test.
<MootBot> ACTION received:  lool to grab the UMPC image and test.
<lool> Emmet doesn't have a N810, but ok
<lool> (or do you?)
 * davidm grumbles about forgetting mootbot commands
<persia> No, they aren't sold here.  I can go get something similar if required, but am happy to wait
<davidm> persia, I'll send you one, I was under the impression that you had one from UDS
<davidm> I have a spare sitting here on my desk.
<persia> That works too :)
<davidm> OK anything more on the topic of Alpha 2/3?
<lool> Well still related is netbook stuff
<lool> We need to work on merging UNR packages more, enabling them by default and all
<lool> Do we have an owner for this work already?
<StevenK> I'd suggest ogra
<davidm> No actually, lool who is best for this?  I have a list of packages.
<lool> We need someone with a netbook!  :)
 * persia will see about reclaiming the Kohjinsha
<davidm> Well the Q1 Ultra will work for this until we have purchased hardware.
<lool> davidm: I'm tempted to think most people could do it, but we should keep an eye of the work load of each of us; perhaps we need to list what we all will be working on this cycle explicitely and look at moving unassigned stuff at this point?
<lool> I would like doing it, but I'm not sure I'm not overcommitting
<davidm> OK I'll take the action of making a wiki page with the list of packages that need to be merged/updated
<lool> Hmm I thought there was one
<davidm> is there?
<davidm> I don't have the URL for it.
<lool> Ah no, we have a wiki text for it though
<lool> Should just be a matter of copy-paste
<StevenK> davidm: Throw me an action for sorting out the seeds, since I've done most of it locally
<davidm> StevenK, lets change the topic to seeds first, then make the action
<lool> So perhaps a good course of actions is a) everybody to do drafting on pet specs and set drafter and assignee b) we review as a group what everybody does and assign the remaining important specs?
<lool> I frankly don't have a good overview of who will be working on what; just what I remember from UDS
 * persia claims all the otherwise unclaimed specs
<persia> (at least as drafter)
<davidm> OK I'm going to close current topic and open a new one, updating UDS specs
<davidm> [topic] updating UDS spec's with results from UDS
<MootBot> New Topic:  updating UDS spec's with results from UDS
<lool> Hmm looks like we wont have a meeting next week...
<persia> I've been going through notes and gobby documents, and expect to be able to dump stuff in the next 2-3 days into most of the specs.
<lool> Many people are half-VAC this week or next
<lool> It means postponing this review to January which is late
<davidm> [action] lool, StevenK, persia, ogra to update their specs by Jan 8th
<MootBot> ACTION received:  lool, StevenK, persia, ogra to update their specs by Jan 8th
<davidm> [action] persia to grab unclaimed specs and update those.
<MootBot> ACTION received:  persia to grab unclaimed specs and update those.
<davidm> I agree but with the late UDS we don't have a choice
<davidm> lool, ^^
<lool> (I wish I'd think of this last week and set it as a goal for today but that would have been probably tight)
<davidm> with travel and such I think impossible and there is no meeting next week or the week after.
<davidm> OK anymore on seeds?
<davidm> OK anymore on specs
<davidm> that is
<lool> I have a question on images if I'm allowed to jump back a second on the previous topic
<davidm> Ok
<lool> StevenK, cjwatson: will we have a livefs builder for armel?
<davidm> [topic] seed status
<MootBot> New Topic:  seed status
<StevenK> We will have one, yes.
<lool> StevenK: Is that planned for before alpha 3?
<StevenK> I have no idea.
<StevenK> I'll use it when it's configured
<davidm> lool, can you take the action to cut and paste the UNT text to a wiki page?
<lool> UNT?  UNR?
<lool> Sure
<davidm> Yes, fumble fingered sorry
<davidm> [action] lool to move UNR text to wiki page.
<MootBot> ACTION received:  lool to move UNR text to wiki page.
<davidm> StevenK, seed status?  You have an update?
<StevenK> I have most of the changes made locally.
<StevenK> I'll go through the unr seed and see if any changes need to be made
<davidm> [action] StevenK to sort out seed changes
<MootBot> ACTION received:  StevenK to sort out seed changes
<lool> Ah you wanted to replace the umpc seed wholesale with the unr one
<StevenK> Not exactly
<lool> Any other topics for today?
<persia> mobile-applications
<davidm> Just the usual status updates, but we are out of time
<lool> (We might be running out of time)
<persia> Ah, then none :)
<davidm> we'll have to post the status in the email
<lool> actually we have time
<persia> I'll move the mobile-applications to a wiki page, and send email expecting people to update it for the next meeting.
<davidm> persia, good
<lool> I don't see any meeting after ours today
<davidm> [action] persia I'll move the mobile-applications to a wiki page, and send email expecting people to update it for the next meeting.
<MootBot> ACTION received:  persia I'll move the mobile-applications to a wiki page, and send email expecting people to update it for the next meeting.
<persia> No, Desktop changed the time, and moved to a different channel.  Still
<davidm> OK lets do a quick status and then end the meeting
<davidm> [topic] status report (quick)
<MootBot> New Topic:  status report (quick)
<lool> Who's quick?
<davidm> persia, ?
<persia> UDS, post-UDS braindump & notes review.
<persia> (not yet complete, nor posted)
<davidm> OK
<davidm> StevenK, ?
<StevenK> UDS, post-UDS review/spec writing, armel
<davidm> lool, ?
<lool> SRUs, MIRs, general catchup, doctor, poked some ARM stuff
<lool> davidm: what about you?
<lool> Feeling any better?
<davidm> post UDS travel, paperwork, and setting interviews
<davidm> Still have chest cold I think.
<lool> Sorry about that  :-/
<davidm> Got is as I got back on Monday.
<davidm> So I hope it clears soonish
 * StevenK thinks he managed to avoid the lool-cold
 * lool sends a letter to .au
<lool> hugs and kisses from France!
 * StevenK stamps it Return to Sender, unopened
<davidm> OK I'm going to close the meeting, StevenK you have the action to post weekly report tomorrow
 * StevenK nods
<lool> davidm: thanks for chairing
<davidm> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 07:03.
<davidm> lool, thanks
<StevenK> When I recover from the coma I'm about to fall into
<lool> I wish you people a merry xmas next week
<davidm> Indeed
* ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 18 Dec 14:00: Ubuntu Java | 18 Dec 23:00: Forum Council | 05 Jan 20:00: EMEA Membership | 07 Jan 03:00: America's Council | 13 Jan 21:00: LoCo Council
* ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Current meeting: Ubuntu Java Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 18 Dec 23:00: Forum Council | 05 Jan 20:00: EMEA Membership | 07 Jan 03:00: America's Council | 13 Jan 21:00: LoCo Council
<persia> Who's here for the Java meeting?
<Koon> o/
<persia> Are we expecting ludovicc, slytherin, or robilad?
<Koon> I don't think ludovicc will join us, don't know for the others
<persia> slytherin doesn't appear on freenode, and robilad seems to be on an unusually small number of channels, so I'm guessing it's logging-only.
<persia> So, roadmap: anything exciting for maven?
<Koon> ludivic is still working on the tools
<Koon> We've been discussing for Torsten Werner (debian-java) about integration
<Koon> he is following a slightly different model: revisiting all Java library packages and provide a Maven-compatible view of them
<Koon> i.e. /usr/share/java-maven-repo/path/to/artifactname/versionname/artifact-version.jar
<Koon> rather than /usr/share/java/artifact-version.jar
<Koon> The two approaches are not mutually exclusive
<Koon> though I would have thought going for /usr/share/java-maven-repo things would require some policy decisions
<persia> So we're likely to end up with a hybrid, and finally with just syncs?
<persia> I'd agree that it would probably need some policy changes, but pkg-java can do that :)
<Koon> yep.
<persia> Anything else you want on the meeting records for maven this week?
<Koon> Another concern raised is that asking maven to map to slightly-different versions of JARs is dangerous
<Koon> I'll explain a bit
<persia> API/ABI type issues?
<Koon> maven allows Java developers to pick a very specific version number for every JAR
<Koon> We, on the other hand, provide just one version
<Koon> so when maven asks for plexus-utils-1.0.7_alpha7, we can give it 1.0.7_alpha2, or alpha10
<Koon> there is no API/ABI protection whatsoever in version numbers
<Koon> while this is reasonable for small software stacks... it can quickly become a problem with large ones
<Koon> which are usually those using maven :)
<Koon> I don't really know how we can solve that.
<Koon> while still maintaining some common libraries
<persia> Presumably that's something that can be improved as developers learn a more modular approach, as expected with the Java 7 transition?
<persia> Certainly not quickly, but in time?
<Koon> yes, we might need some workaround in between
<persia> More than just our standard build/test/patch/report model?
<Koon> something like shipping the expected JAR stack as part of the binaries, for complex software
<persia> We do that now sometimes, but it's a bit of a security nightmare.
<Koon> that may be preferable to testing nightmare + losing JavaEE certifications
<Koon> anyway, I wanted to raise the issue because I think the common libraries model doesn't fit too well with the current Java world
<persia> Right.  Generally, the process has been to try to use system libraries, and bundle when they didn't work.
<persia> No, it certainly doesn't fit with current cultural practices, although this is (slowly) changing.
<Koon> I'm sure robilad could provide some insights on the direction we are heading to
<Koon> that's all
<persia> Next item is removing Java 5 from Jaunty.
<persia> There was a discussion about this with Sun representatives at UDS, and given the expected date for end-of-support for Java 5 from Sun, we will want to get this completed for Jaunty (and arguably may have wanted it for intrepid).
<persia> Those users who need Java 5 beyond end-of-support can use 8.04.x or 8.10, but there won't be any more updates (even bugfix) soon enough.
<zul> so whats the next version of java from sun?
<persia> We still need to get the spec done, and get it approved, etc.
<persia> zul, Next spec is Java 7.  I'm not sure of the exact schedule for Sun JDK 5, Sun JDK 6, OpenJDK 6, or OpenJDK 7 builds.
<persia> That's it for roadmap.
<persia> On an administrative note, the next two Thursdays fall on days considered holidays in many places.  I'll probably be around for the first, but not the second.  Is anyone expecting to attend a Java Team meeting on those days?
<Koon> persia: not me
<persia> Well then, I'm not holding official meetings on those days :)
<persia> That's it.  Have a good week.
<Koon> Thanks, you too :)
* ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 18 Dec 23:00: Forum Council | 05 Jan 20:00: EMEA Membership | 07 Jan 03:00: America's Council | 13 Jan 21:00: LoCo Council
<lukjad007> Sorry, forgot to log out.
* ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 18 Dec 23:00: Forum Council | 23 Dec 16:00: Server Team | 05 Jan 20:00: EMEA Membership | 07 Jan 03:00: America's Council | 13 Jan 21:00: LoCo Council
* ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Current meeting: Forum Council Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 23 Dec 16:00: Server Team | 05 Jan 20:00: EMEA Membership | 07 Jan 03:00: America's Council | 13 Jan 21:00: LoCo Council
<ubuntugeek> Hey Matthew
<forumsmatthew> hello!
<Technoviking> afternoon
<ubuntugeek> How's it going?
<forumsmatthew> I'm cold. It's 57 (F) here.
<lukjad007> 25 here.
<Technoviking> going good
<Technoviking> 23 F
<forumsmatthew> I'm a cold wimp...it's all those years in the desert
<forumsmatthew> on both sides of the Atlantic
<lukjad007> Heh. Well, I like winter.
<ubuntugeek> 14F
<lukjad007> It makes most of my adversaries dumb
<Snowflake> I wondered when jdong would be arriving.
<lukjad007> hey jdong
<forumsmatthew> jdong, welcome!
<jdong> hi everyone :)
<jdong> I got the date right this time!
<ubuntugeek> Hi
<forumsmatthew> I'm pretty sure Kiwi isn't coming. Since the rest of us are here, shall we get started?
<ubuntugeek> Let's go ahead and get started
<forumsmatthew> lol
<ubuntugeek> The agenda is located at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ForumCouncilAgenda
<Technoviking> I have only got a hour, got to change tapes before I go home :(
<talsemgeest> So why isn't kiwi coming?
<ubuntugeek> Should be quick Mike
<ubuntugeek> talsemgeest: odd time for him
<talsemgeest> 12.PM?
<ubuntugeek> He works
 * drubin catches up the logs
<talsemgeest> Ah
<ubuntugeek> NicolsDeschilre are you here to discuss the brainstorm agenda item?
<lukjad007> Hey talsemgeest, will you be able to stay?
<talsemgeest> Maybe another 20 minutes
<ubuntugeek> Ok, we'll come back to the first Item then
<lukjad007> Okay. If you go, I'll bring up your point
<ubuntugeek> The second item "The strikethrough tags [s][/s] do not work in the Forum"
<drubin> brb
<ubuntugeek> This isn't a native bbcode in vbulletin, however, I just added support for it :)
<forumsmatthew> sweet!
<lukjad007> so, it's in?
<ubuntugeek> Yes, its in
<lukjad007> Thanks you!
<forumsmatthew> thank you
<ubuntugeek> Working and tested [s]test[/s] will strike
<jdong> coolness
<Snowflake> On a related note, I believe [hr] is nonexistent or mod-only? (Just wondering)
<talsemgeest> Awesome
<ubuntugeek> Snowflake, no plans for that one we try to keep it limited.
<Snowflake> Ah.
<drubin> Snowflake: hr as in horizontal rule?
<Snowflake> drubin: Yes.
<jdong> ubuntugeek: maybe we should try using the del tag?
<jdong> http://www.w3schools.com/tags/tag_del.asp
<drubin> ubuntugeek: thanks for moving the meeting time.
<jdong> <strike> is technically deprecated
<ubuntugeek> Next, on the agenda we have "Superfluous moderation on the forums"  by wrtpeeps. Are they here to address their item?
<ubuntugeek> There isn't much detail on this item, so I'm not sure what its pertaining to. Anyone else?
<drubin> jdong: technically we *should* be only using css for this stuff
<jdong> ubuntugeek: I believe it comes from one of the res center topics.
<jdong> http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=996267
<ubuntugeek> drudin: we do not allow html code directly in posts
<forumsmatthew> he was unhappy with an infraction that Kiwi gave and I supported, or the other way around
<Snowflake> Before wrtpeeps gets flooded, I send a message to him in the hopes that he is paying attention...
<drubin> ubuntugeek: I was just refering that [s] should apply a style rather then html code
<ubuntugeek> drubin; that makes things more complicated
<jdong> well with regard to wrtpeep's situation the existing FC replies sum up my opinion and his replies speak for themself.
<drubin> ubuntugeek: like with all things. :) Just saying it would be the ideal
 * lukjad007 will be right back.
<forumsmatthew> My opinion is unchanged from what I said in the thread you linked
<ubuntugeek> I agree with the moderation and infraction that took place in this situation
<jdong> I don't see anything that needs to be done. The infraction was appropriate and wrtpeeps is not here to say otherwise.
* ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Current meeting: Forum Council Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 23 Dec 16:00: Server Team | 23 Dec 17:00: Kernel Team | 05 Jan 20:00: EMEA Membership | 07 Jan 03:00: America's Council | 13 Jan 21:00: LoCo Council
<ubuntugeek> jdong: agreed
<forumsmatthew> agreed...and http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/Superfluous?jss=0
<Technoviking> agreed
<ubuntugeek> OK lets move on, if wrtpeeps shows up we can discuss it further. But the FC is in agreement with the actions taken.
<ubuntugeek> Next, The bump thread Feel that they are over loading the forums unnecessarily. Drubin, you are up.
<drubin> give me a sec writing it down :)
<ubuntugeek> No problem, take your time.
<drubin> We state that this is first and formost a tech support forum, yet we have this thread. I am not saying we need to get ride of these light hearted threads I am seriously wondering the extrea load they impose in the db is this nessary considering all the issues we were having at the time
<drubin> btw the issues seemed to have calmed down a little bit
<jdong> well I think the "issues" calming down is mere coincidence.
<ubuntugeek> jdong: agreed
<talsemgeest> I feel that any overuse of the forum resources is worth it for the friendships that are made in that thread. It is a great place to get to know your fellow ubuntu-forumers.
<jdong> while I absolutely agree this up-and-down flakiness of the forum needs to be resolved and looked at seriously, I don't feel a single long thread is the cause.
<wrtpeeps> er, hi?
<drubin> the extra posts might slow down the quries on a whole searching/indexing of the db
<drubin> jdong: +1
<jdong> vBulletin doesn't really work in a way where long threads are more "expensive" to access.
<ubuntugeek> drubin: I can assure that that bump thread isn't causing any load.
<forumsmatthew> wrtpeeps, we will get back to your issue shortly, after we finish this on
<forumsmatthew> *one
<jdong> that being said, I think we do need to take a look at why on earth we have so many proxy  errors.
<jdong> ubuntugeek: any guesses?
<ubuntugeek> It's configured wrong?
<drubin> ubuntugeek: You have direct access to the DB's/code I would love to know the explained query when viewing the bump thread how many rows it examines
<forumsmatthew> gremlins?
<wrtpeeps> hold on til I go refresh myself on what my issue was
<Snowflake> jdong: Someday you'll have to tell me how the database works (if you can). I'm curious how that operates.
<lukjad007> Has it been narrowed down to a hardware or a software problem?
<jdong> drubin: no more than it costs to retrieve any other 50 posts or 25 or whatever you have per page.
<ubuntugeek> drubin: Alot of the queries are cached
<jdong> lukjad007: it's software.
<ubuntugeek> drubin: by vbulletin
<drubin> ubuntugeek: Ok topic over.
<drubin> :)
<ubuntugeek> drubin: when  you pull of up a page of the thread its only pulling the posts on that page
<jdong> I do think there's something weird going on with the proxy though....
<forumsmatthew> jdong, +1
<drubin> jdong: +1
<jdong> there was a phase where basically 1 of 10 pages end in proxy error
<ubuntugeek> drubin; it doesn't prefetch all 1000 pages
<drubin> ubuntugeek: Ye I know that. but I wanted to know the means for "searching" for those 20 posts
 * drubin is trying to find his post explaining this
<jdong> drubin: hashtable.
<jdong> constant access time
<jdong> it's not an issue for vBulletin to handle
<drubin> ye it should be handeled on the DB's side
<drubin> but as with all design/programming there are more then one way to skin a cat
<drubin> I was wondering how this way was handeling threads with huge amounts of posts...
<ubuntugeek> Lets move on to wrtpeeps agenda item. I think we established that the bump thread isnt causing any problems.
<forumsmatthew> +1
<lukjad007> Thank you ubuntugeek
<ubuntugeek> wrtpeeps you are up
<jdong> +1
<wrtpeeps> ok
<wrtpeeps> what exactly do you want me to say? Haven't been to one of these gatherings before
<jdong> give us a quick description of the problem, link to relevant posts, and why you disagree with the decision.
<ubuntugeek> I assume you put your item on the agenda because you feel you were wrongly given an infraction
<wrtpeeps> Ok, so firstly apologies as I am unprepared as I wasn't aware this meeting was taking place now
<wrtpeeps> but yes, I received what quite frankly was a pathetic infraction from KiwiNZ i believe.
<wrtpeeps> For calling someone "paranoid" I got accused of "insulting other members"
<wrtpeeps> This was, in my opinion, a totally unnecessary intervention by an administrator.
<forumsmatthew> we all looked earlier, but for the record, here is the Resolution Center thread: http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=996267
<wrtpeeps> ty
<forumsmatthew> I stated my opinion there, and it is unchanged
<wrtpeeps> Yes, you said "It is possible for intelligent people to disagree, even strongly, without resorting to mockery. Please learn how."
<ubuntugeek> wrtpeeps:  it was your tone that caused the infraction, it comes across as insulting.
<wrtpeeps> Which, is a contradiction within intself
<wrtpeeps> -n
<jdong> I've looked over the original thread and the resolution center posts again...
<talsemgeest> Ok, sorry guys but I have to go.
<jdong> I do feel, wrtpeeps, your response was overly harsh and directly attacking than appropriate for answering the OP's question.
<wrtpeeps> forumsmatthew: your reply to me was dismissive and mocking
<lukjad007> Bye talsemgeest
<forumsmatthew> I answered that accusation in the thread. My opinion is unchanged.
<jdong> furthermore, your attitude and choice of words in your resolution center post are not so great either
<wrtpeeps> Can we assume therefore, that all future instances of people being called paranoid or using a tone displeasing to you that they will be similarly infracted?
<jdong> if anyone calls anyone else "absolutely paranoid" and mocks them for asking a privacy question, yes, it's safe to say they will be infracted.
<wrtpeeps> I will admit, it's a long time ago now and I am over it
<wrtpeeps> but I do feel that it was unnecessary
<jdong> as Matthew said, it's totally fine to disagree, even strongly disagree, with someone, or to find their opinion unreasonable.
<jdong> but you express that by pointing out specific facts that contradict the OP's statement
<ubuntugeek> wrtpeeps: Like most infractions they expire and yours did in this case.
<jdong> not by name-calling and mocking...
<jdong> a light infraction -- the lowest point-value one possible, was given for your post
<jdong> it was meant as just a polite reminder to be careful of your tone.
<wrtpeeps> speaking of mocking
<ubuntugeek> jdong: +1
<wrtpeeps> is there any chance the pointless, childish, continual bashing of windows users could be moderated? (In Community chat)
<wrtpeeps> especially the grossly uneducated posts.
<ubuntugeek> wrtpeeps: please use the forum report option and a staff member will look into it
<forumsmatthew> when you see it, please report the post
<jdong> we do pay attention to such posts.
<wrtpeeps> ok, thanks :)
<Technoviking> wrtpeeps: many people who do that do get infraction for doing so
<jdong> as matthew said, please report such posts if you feel they are out of line
<wrtpeeps> Technoviking: good to know :)
<jdong> we don't support such bashing of anything.
<wrtpeeps> ok well, as I said, I am over my original problem, and the second one is fine too
<wrtpeeps> so that's all from me folks :)
<ubuntugeek> Ok great
<jdong> ok, awesome
* ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Current meeting: Forum Council Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 23 Dec 16:00: Server Team | 23 Dec 17:00: Kernel Team | 24 Dec 16:00: Foundation Team | 24 Dec 17:00: QA Team | 05 Jan 20:00: EMEA Membership
<jdong> thanks for coming to the meeting
<wrtpeeps> no problem
<jdong> ok, is Nicolas or anyone else from Brainstorm here to discuss the remaining item?
<ubuntugeek> The first item we havent address since he isnt here.
<ubuntugeek> We'll leave it on the agenda for next time
<jdong> ok, sounds good.
<ubuntugeek> Does anyone else have anything?
<Joeb454> I like it when meetings are this short ;)
<JenkinBr> Joeb454: you missed it all
<jdong> Joeb454: that's what... oh forget it.
<forumsmatthew> thanks, everyone!
<Joeb454> I know :)
<forumsmatthew> my wife is calling me
<forumsmatthew> see you later!
<ubuntugeek> Thanks everyone see you next month
<Joeb454> later forumsmatthew
<jdong> bye!
<Technoviking> happy holidays everyone
<Joeb454> bye ubuntugeek
<ubuntugeek> -- end meeting
<Joeb454> and +1 Technoviking :D
<jdong> :)
<lukjad007> Bye!
<drubin> bye
<JenkinBr> bye
<ubuntugeek> bye everyone
#ubuntu-meeting 2008-12-20
* ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 20 Dec 15:00: Xubuntu Developer | 23 Dec 16:00: Server Team | 23 Dec 17:00: Kernel Team | 24 Dec 16:00: Foundation Team | 24 Dec 17:00: QA Team | 25 Dec 12:00: Ubuntu Mobile Team
* ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Current meeting: Xubuntu Developer Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 23 Dec 16:00: Server Team | 23 Dec 17:00: Kernel Team | 24 Dec 16:00: Foundation Team | 24 Dec 17:00: QA Team | 25 Dec 12:00: Ubuntu Mobile Team
<mschemerii> Good Morning, everyone!
<cody-somerville> Morning! :)
 * cody-somerville stretches.
<charlie-tca> morning :-)
<vinnl> Good afternoon ;-)
<jeromeg> hey everybody
<cody-somerville> I hope Jim hasn't gotten got caught up in the winter weather
<j1mc> hi all
<vinnl> Speaking of the devil :)
<j1mc> sorry i'm late  :)
<cody-somerville> \o/
<vinnl> Wow, everybody;s here :)
<JPohlmann> Morning ;)
<j1mc> morning :)
<JPohlmann> Just woke up, it's 4pm
<j1mc> heh
<mschemerii> just woke up, myself... 10am
<cody-somerville> JPohlmann, still on California time? ;]
<j1mc> hi mschemerii
<JPohlmann> cody-somerville: Kinda, yeah
<mschemerii> Hi Jim
<mschemerii> Anyone else need some coffee?
<charlie-tca> got mine; 8 am :-)
<j1mc> i do
<j1mc> shall we get started?
<vinnl> I need it but can't drink it :P
<cody-somerville> Sounds splendid! :)
<vinnl> Yeah
<cody-somerville> j1mc, do you want to chair?
<knome> sorry.
<vinnl> Just in time :)
<knome> :)
<j1mc> cody-somerville: sure
<knome> fire it up
<j1mc> so, topics for today: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Meetings
 * cody-somerville wonders if we should use moot bot
<j1mc> let's get started with a recap of outcomes from UDS.  cody?
<j1mc> I would, but I don't think this meeting is "on the fridge"
<cody-somerville> It is
<j1mc> #Startmeeting
<cody-somerville> I added it :]
<MootBot> Meeting started at 09:08. The chair is j1mc.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<j1mc> all right, we are in motion now then
<j1mc> #topic - updates from UDS
<cody-somerville> I think it is: [TOPIC]
<j1mc> [TOPIC] Updates from UDS
<MootBot> New Topic:  Updates from UDS
<cody-somerville> Alrighty, I guess I'll go first.
<cody-somerville> Unfortunately I didn't get to participate in the all the great sessions as much as I would have liked on a count of being sick most of UDS, a close friend dying while I was down in San Francisco :(, and being busy with OEM Services stuff. However, from the sessions I did participate in and the time I was able to spend with the folks from the Xubuntu community, I'd say overall it was a very productive get together.
<cody-somerville> We discussed a number of import issues, built friendships, got a better understanding for how each other work (specifically with regards to Xfce4, thanks to Jannis for making the long trip), and fleshed out some ideas for Jaunty
<cody-somerville> *important
<cody-somerville> Among our accomplishments at UDS, we: fleshed out a first draft roadmap for Jaunty, discussed artwork for Jaunty
<cody-somerville> discussed how to grow the Xubuntu community, and plans for xfce 4.6 in Jaunty
<cody-somerville> The jist of our discussions are documented in gobby documents at gobby.ubuntu.com
<cody-somerville> I'm hoping to turn them into specs (or get people to volunteer to turn them into specs)
<cody-somerville> If nobody has any questions, I'll pass the floor to knome
<mschemerii> question
<j1mc> knome: i know we talked some about artwork and such
<cody-somerville> mschemerii, shoot :)
<mschemerii> I find nothing at gobby.ubuntu.com... can you point me to a how to so I can access it properly?
<knome> Ok, I'll start recapping now:
<JPohlmann> mschemerii: You'll have to use the gobby editor
<mschemerii> ok... thanks... sorry to interrupt
<JPohlmann> mschemerii: And then connect to gobby.ubuntu.com:6522
<knome> I think it was really great to meet the guys at UDS and we definitely were productive. Also it was nice to get in touch with the Ubuntu community in general to make some connections with other artists and teams which might be able to help us.
<knome> Even if Cody wasn't available all times, we got work done and things going forward - and fast.
<knome> Next one?
<j1mc> Sure - we also had a meeting about xubuntu and xfce documentation.
<knome> (I have to leave in 15mins, but I will be back later, hopefully before the session ends.)
<j1mc> The Xfce user guide wasn't fully updated for Xfce 4.4, and will need to be updated for 4.6
<j1mc> JPohlmann suggested pooling people together from different distros to work on the Xfce 4.6 user guide.
<JPohlmann> And the end user docs for applications like xfce4-settings.
<j1mc> We discussed having a session on IRC where xfce developers could outline how the components of Xfce work together to build the desktop environment
<j1mc> to help orient potential documentors
<jeromeg> as a side note, I sent a patch a few days ago to update the xfdesktop documentation
<j1mc> jeromeg: woot.  :)  we had discussed what could be done to get the docs into a consistent state
<j1mc> for ppl to work on them
<j1mc> and how these docs might integrate with Xubuntu system docs
<j1mc> . . . so that's my doc discussion recap
<JPohlmann> Ok
<JPohlmann> Guess it's my turn then
<cody-somerville> (j1mc, I'd be interested in seeing a follow up meeting for those interested in Xubuntu documentation and the into-distro collaboration on xfce4 docs)
<cody-somerville> ( j1mc, can you take that action item )
<j1mc> cody-somerville: me, too - ok.  I invited mschemerii here - he's interested in working on xubuntu docs
 * cody-somerville nods.
<cody-somerville> JPohlmann, sorry for interrupting :)
<JPohlmann> It's ok ;)
<j1mc> [ACTION] Jim follow-up on xubuntu-doc meeting
<MootBot> ACTION received:  Jim follow-up on xubuntu-doc meeting
<JPohlmann> The session about how components work together was intended to be some kind of kick-off session, but maybe we should create a schedule where we first have a generic kick-off session, then a session to explain how things work together and then a session on how to organize the team etc.
<JPohlmann> I guess Jim and I could work that out.
<j1mc> JPohlmann: sounds good.
<j1mc> do you think it would be better to hold that meeting on #xfce?
<JPohlmann> Haven't thought about that yet
<j1mc> ok
<jeromeg> we could even create a xfce-dev channel ?
<jeromeg> oups
<jeromeg> xfce-doc
<knome> (I'm leaving now, I'll be back ASAP.)
<JPohlmann> See you Pasi
<cody-somerville> (gak, we're almost 30 minutes into the meeting, we need to hurry up!)
<j1mc> yah
<JPohlmann> Ok
<JPohlmann> Then let me just recap
<JPohlmann> So, first of all it was great meeting (almost) everybody and being able to discuss face-to-face. I think after the docs session, we have a rough idea in mind on how this collaboration could work at least. I'm really hoping that we can form a joint team for that.
<JPohlmann> One thing that clearly needs more discussion is *how* we want the documentation to be written and with which technologies.
<JPohlmann> We also discussed the main complaints in Xubuntu and how to solve them for jaunty, like disappearing panels, non-fd.o-compliant menu, samba/network browsing in Thunar etc.
<j1mc> non-fd.o-compliant menu.  :(
 * j1mc glares at menu
<j1mc> :)
<j1mc> anything else, JPohlmann
<JPohlmann> I think NCommander started to backport Xfce 4.4.3 to intrepid I think.
 * cody-somerville nods.
<JPohlmann> And the idea to port the user switcher applet to the xfce panel came up. Not sure who's going to work on that though ;)
<JPohlmann> I guess that's it.
<JPohlmann> j1mc: The menu issue is already solved by having a fd.o-compliant menu implementation in Xfce 4.6.
<cody-somerville> Awesome \o/
<JPohlmann> (Even though it's not feature-complete)
<j1mc> :)
<j1mc> anything else on UDS?
<jeromeg> guys, I need to leave in a second, just want to say a word about xfce4-screenshooter
<jeromeg> if you guys agree ?
<j1mc> sure
<cody-somerville> jeromeg, sure :)
<jeromeg> I'm maintaining it since august
<jeromeg> cody told me you consider it for inclusion in jaunty
<jeromeg> please tell me in you have any thoughts/requests/bug reports on this app
<jeromeg> I'll release a new version around the 5 of January
<jeromeg> featuring a "select a region feauture"
<jeromeg> and copy to clipboard
<jeromeg> + full documentation + interface cleanup
<j1mc> jeromeg: sounds good!
<jeromeg> that's all, I'm done :)
<JPohlmann> Wow
<jeromeg> thanks to David Collins, a user who submitted some great patches !
<j1mc> :)
<jeromeg> (xubuntu user btw ;) )
<cody-somerville> w00t
<j1mc> anything else on this, jeromeg or cody-somerville ?
<jeromeg> nope
<j1mc> next topic?
<cody-somerville> I'd just like to give jeromeg a big kudos for maintaining that app :)
<cody-somerville> j1mc, sounds good
<jeromeg> got to go, see you guys, that was a pleasure
<j1mc> +1 for jeromeg - see you!
<j1mc> [TOPIC] Jaunty xubuntu-team meeting schedule
<MootBot> New Topic:  Jaunty xubuntu-team meeting schedule
<j1mc> how often do we want to have these meetings during this cycle?
<j1mc> once a month?
<cody-somerville> I propose an official meeting monthly
<cody-somerville> but I encourage sub-teams to get together as often as they'd like
<cody-somerville> and I definitely encourage spontaneous meetings in #xubuntu-devel when ever people fancy :)
<j1mc> that sounds good to me.  anyone else?
<JPohlmann> I agree with Cody
<charlie-tca> +1
<j1mc> Would Saturdays generally work for everyone?
<cody-somerville> Yea, I think as long as we get reminders out
<JPohlmann> Depends on the time. Sunday afternoons are usually better for me.
<vinnl> Depends
<cody-somerville> lol
<cody-somerville> :P
<vinnl> Same here
<j1mc> move them to sundays then?
<vinnl> +1
<j1mc> We'll move them to Sundays and see how things work.  I'll try to avoid major holiday weekends.
<JPohlmann> Sounds fine
<j1mc> next topic then :)
<j1mc> [TOPIC] Finalize Jaunty roadmap
<MootBot> New Topic:  Finalize Jaunty roadmap
<cody-somerville> Okay
<cody-somerville> knome was nice enough to update the wikipage for us
<cody-somerville> So please take a look at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Roadmap
<JPohlmann> We definitely need more subpages for the bigger items like "Implement Xfce 4.6".
 * cody-somerville nods.
<JPohlmann> We can also move some content from the gobby documents there.
<cody-somerville> JPohlmann, agreed
<cody-somerville> Here are the main objectives I currently propose for Jaunty:
<cody-somerville>  * Grow the Xubuntu Community (xubuntu-community)
<cody-somerville>  * Refresh distro artwork (xubuntu-artwork)
<cody-somerville>  * Update the documentation via improved collaberation with Xfce doc team (xubuntu-xfce-documentation)
<cody-somerville>  * Implement Xfce 4.6 (xubuntu-xfce)
<cody-somerville>  * Thunar Improvements: Implement Samba Browsing & Thunar meta-data pane
<cody-somerville>  * Port user switcher applet to the Xfce panel
<vinnl> Hmm, there's some deprecated specs ther
<vinnl> *e
<JPohlmann> I can probably move the content and create status tables and whatnot.
<cody-somerville> vinnl, such as?
<vinnl> The website thing
<cody-somerville> Where do you see website stuff?
<j1mc> "Xubuntu Website Plan"
<mschemerii> Specifications
<j1mc> cody-somerville: re: samba - are you considering modifying thunar, and pushing changes upstream?
<cody-somerville> j1mc, there is already a patch for thunar
<j1mc> also, have you seen the newly-proposed xfce app to assist with mounting shares?
<cody-somerville> j1mc, and the patches are upstream
<j1mc> ok
<cody-somerville> j1mc, however, the samba patch won't be accepted
<cody-somerville> but JPohlmann is working on gio for Thunar
<cody-somerville> so we'll drop our samba patch once thats done
<cody-somerville> and I'm packaging sion for Ubuntu right now
<mschemerii> the goodies project has thunar-shares-plugin
<JPohlmann> Which is probably after jaunty.
<cody-somerville> yup
<cody-somerville> mschemerii, there is another patch too :)
<cody-somerville> mschemerii, (for browsing)
<j1mc> sounds good, cody-somerville.  thanks for clearing that up.  i didn't know the status on those items
<JPohlmann> That's what we can put on a subpage for "Thunar improvements"
 * cody-somerville nods.
<cody-somerville> Okay, so if folks can indicate their general approval of the listed main objectives via +1 or +0 it would be greatly appreciated. I'll make a decision later today and mail the xubuntu-devel ml.
<mschemerii> +1
<charlie-tca> +1
<vinnl> +!
<vinnl> *+1
<j1mc> I don't see anything objectionable in there.  :)  +1
<cody-somerville> +1
<j1mc> I have some community ideas - I'll add them to the community wiki page, and will also link to some of my doc roadmap stuff from that page.
<JPohlmann> +1
<j1mc> moving on, then?
 * cody-somerville nods.
<j1mc> [TOPIC] Xubuntu QA/Testing Lead Candidate Charlie Kravetz
<MootBot> New Topic:  Xubuntu QA/Testing Lead Candidate Charlie Kravetz
<JPohlmann> \o/
<j1mc> +1 \o/
<charlie-tca>  /me too \o/
<cody-somerville> charlie-tca, :)
<cody-somerville> charlie-tca, It is understood that you'd like to take on the responsibility of leading Xubuntu QA/Testing efforts. Is this correct? :)
<charlie-tca> it is correct.
<JPohlmann> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1G_YueJ8Wos
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1G_YueJ8Wos
<cody-somerville> charlie-tca, could you tell us about your experience working on QA and Testing efforts in the Ubuntu and Xubuntu community?
<JPohlmann> Big la ola for charlie ;)
<charlie-tca> I am a member of bugsquad and bug-control. I have been in the top 5 for bug triage the last 2 months
<cody-somerville> :D
<j1mc> w00t!!
<vinnl> JPohlmann, omg, over-synchronising really _can_ ruin even the best shows :P
<cody-somerville> charlie-tca, how would you rally the community to help triage Xubuntu bugs and test image candidates?
<charlie-tca> I did a lot of testing for the intrepid release, and found 3 major bugs before the final release
<JPohlmann> vinnl: True ;)
<charlie-tca> We need to hold regular bug days and testing days for xubuntu
<charlie-tca> The ones we had for intrepid were very successful.
<charlie-tca> The bug triage is very manageable right now, with less than 100 triaged
<charlie-tca> no, to be triaged
<vinnl> Mostly thanks to your hard work :)
<charlie-tca> We show 52 testers in launchpad, I need to get them more involved in testing before the releases
<mschemerii> right on...
<cody-somerville> charlie-tca, what do you think about starting a 5-a-day bug team?
<mschemerii> ;)
<charlie-tca> I donÂ´t know if that will work. Some people will feel preasured to get 5 no matter what, and that defeats the purpose of it
<charlie-tca> Perhaps we should discuss it though.
<charlie-tca> If it will help keep the bugs triaged, we should work on it.
<charlie-tca> Also, we have many confirmed bugs that should be sent upstream
<j1mc> charlie-tca: i noticed that you updated the xubuntu-testing wiki pages the other day - it's great that you are getting things in sync with the ubuntu QA team
 * cody-somerville nods.
<charlie-tca> Yes, I'm still working on them. I would like to have the long format testing become extended tests from the qa page
<JPohlmann> I have to leave in a few minutes, so just for the record: Brian is planning to add the launchpad integration to the Xfce bugzilla.
<cody-somerville> charlie-tca, Getting the wiki up2date with test cases and what not I think would be a key objective for someone taking on this role. Do you agree charlie-tca?
<cody-somerville> JPohlmann, w00t
<charlie-tca> yes. They need considerable work yet.
<charlie-tca> I have updated the QA test cases already
<charlie-tca> It makes it much easier to make sure the pre-release is really ready for the users
<j1mc> we're kind of getting into our next topic area (QA Efforts for the Jaunty cycle)
 * cody-somerville nods.
<cody-somerville> I think we can all agree charlie-tca will do a great job
<JPohlmann> Yes
<j1mc> definitely
<cody-somerville> charlie-tca, Would you accept the role of the Xubuntu QA Lead?
<charlie-tca> Yes, gladly
<j1mc> w0000t  :)
<JPohlmann> I've made a note to move contents from the gobby documents to the roadmap subpages. Leaving now. See you guys!
<vinnl> \o/
<j1mc> later, JPohlmann
<vinnl> Bye\
<j1mc> +1111ONE!ONEWON1 for charlie-tca
<cody-somerville> :)
<cody-somerville> Welcome to the team charlie-tca
<vinnl> ^^What he said :)
<charlie-tca> Thanks. I will do my best!
<j1mc> :)
<cody-somerville> charlie-tca, Can you please pm me your launchpad id?
<mschemerii> \0/
<charlie-tca> Okay
<j1mc> next topic then.  :)
<j1mc> [TOPIC] Discuss QA efforts & plans for Jaunty cycle
<MootBot> New Topic:  Discuss QA efforts & plans for Jaunty cycle
<cody-somerville> Few ideas I have include:
<j1mc> charlie-tca and cody-somerville :)
<cody-somerville> 1. Have a list on the wiki with people we know can do certain tests
<cody-somerville> So that we can bug them easily to do them :)
<cody-somerville> 2. charlie-tca should accept the action item of sending reminders to the mailing list about the upcoming dates where we'll need to get tests done for a release.
<charlie-tca> good idea
<cody-somerville> 3. charlie-tca should send an e-mail to the ml about how to subscribe to certain tests (a feature provided by the iso qa tracker)
<j1mc> cody-somerville: i think that the ubuntu-qa site also sends out email reminders about tests that testers can sign up for
 * cody-somerville nods.
<j1mc> still, it would be good to have a bit more advance notice via the ML
<cody-somerville> j1mc, maybe we can setup an account on it and put the ml as the address
<cody-somerville> that way the list gets notified automagically :)
<charlie-tca> I think qa donÂ´t remember good
<cody-somerville> charlie-tca, hmm
<cody-somerville> ?
<j1mc> true - but we only get updated on the day the test gets requested - on testing day
<cody-somerville> okay
<cody-somerville> j1mc, I think we should put the dates into a google calendar too
<cody-somerville> that way I can get sms reminders :)
<charlie-tca> I subscribe to the tests, etc, but they donÂ´t send reminders out on time
<j1mc> :)
<cody-somerville> charlie-tca, maybe you can work with the QA team to get that fixed
<cody-somerville> that would be awesome
<charlie-tca> Okay, IÂ´ll do that
<j1mc> [ACTION] charlie-tca sends out email notices to remind about testing
<MootBot> ACTION received:  charlie-tca sends out email notices to remind about testing
<j1mc> [ACTION] charlie-tca check with ubuntu-qa team to make sure auto-reminders get sent out on time
<MootBot> ACTION received:  charlie-tca check with ubuntu-qa team to make sure auto-reminders get sent out on time
<j1mc> [AGREED] charlie-tca will be super-awesome as xubuntu-qa and testing lead
<MootBot> AGREED received:  charlie-tca will be super-awesome as xubuntu-qa and testing lead
<j1mc> :P
<vinnl> +1 :P:
<cody-somerville> charlie-tca, is there any tools or infrastructure that we could whip up to make stuff easier for you?
<cody-somerville> charlie-tca, thinking now about both iso testing and bug triage
<j1mc> good question, cody-somerville
<charlie-tca> Not that I can think of. I'm still learning some of the tools. I would like qaÂ´s traker expanded for us.
<charlie-tca> I need to work with them on that.
<j1mc> charlie-tca: are there any bookmarks you have set in your browser to help you perform searches for bugs at a certain status that are particular to xubuntu packages?
<j1mc> the ubuntu-bugjam page has a set of links to launchpad searches.  maybe we could put up similar links on the xubuntu wiki.
<charlie-tca> Yes, many. The two biggest are the Xubuntu packages, and all new bugs with xubuntu in them
<charlie-tca> I'm hoping to do that, j1mc
<charlie-tca> I have to work the bug triage wiki page yet
<cody-somerville> charlie-tca, what do you think about making the xubuntu-testers team moderated? Giving you a queue of people to get in contact with and ensure they know what they need to do to help so that they can?
<charlie-tca> That could work
<charlie-tca> Right now there is no approval needed, but I donÂ´t think most of those signed up do testing on the iso
 * cody-somerville nods.
 * j1mc nods
<cody-somerville> charlie-tca, if thats something you'd like to do, feel free to do so
<charlie-tca> Many are running the release, and just making updates
<charlie-tca> I'll give it some thought
<mschemerii> It would be great to know what specific things need/want testing in both Intrepid and Jaunty
<cody-somerville> I think thats where the test cases come in
<mschemerii> for Xubuntu, that is
<j1mc> when i sent out notes to the xubuntu-users mailing list requesting help with testing, i usually got a decent response
<cody-somerville> I think we need to make them more prominent and easier to find
<charlie-tca> ThatÂ´s why IÂ´m working the wiki page
 * cody-somerville nods.
<j1mc> :)
<vinnl> Dinner time here
<j1mc> anything else on xubuntu-qa for now?
<charlie-tca> I want people to find the test cases from Xubuntu wiki, not by knowing the qa website
<vinnl> Don't think I'll be back before the end of the meeting, so good luck with it :)
<j1mc> thanks for being here, vinnl
<charlie-tca> IÂ´m done now
<j1mc> cody-somerville - anything else?
<cody-somerville> We're now at 1.5hrs so I think we should wrap up
<j1mc> quickly then
<j1mc> [TOPIC] Team updates (Packaging, Bug Triage, Development / Coding, Testing, Documentation, Artwork)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Team updates (Packaging, Bug Triage, Development / Coding, Testing, Documentation, Artwork)
<cody-somerville> One thing I'd like to say to everyone
<cody-somerville> j1mc charlie-tca mschemerii gpocentek JPohlmann knome jeromeg etc. etc.: Please be sure to update the monthly team report in time each month! :)
* ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 23 Dec 16:00: Server Team | 23 Dec 17:00: Kernel Team | 24 Dec 16:00: Foundation Team | 24 Dec 17:00: QA Team | 25 Dec 12:00: Ubuntu Mobile Team | 25 Dec 13:00: Desktop Team
<j1mc> cody-somerville: ok
<cody-somerville> We'll finish up the agenda at the next meeting :)
<mschemerii> cody-somerville: ok
<j1mc> sounds good.  :)
<charlie-tca> cody-somerville: okay
<cody-somerville> I'll write an e-mail to the list to recap this meeting
<cody-somerville> and to announce other initiatives for Jaunty
<j1mc> thanks for making it, everyone
<cody-somerville> \o/
<cody-somerville> Indeed
<cody-somerville> Thanks everyone!!
<j1mc> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 10:31.
<knome> duh
<j1mc> :)
<mschemerii> Hey Jim
<mschemerii> nm... he left ;)
#ubuntu-meeting 2009-12-14
<robbiew> kees: meeting today?
<kees> ah-ha, there I am.
<kees> jdstrand, mdeslaur, robbiew: sorry I'm late.  ready to go?
<mdeslaur> sure
<robbiew> mdselaur: I thought you were on vacation?
<mdeslaur> I am
<kees> hah
<robbiew> lol
<robbiew> such commitment
<mdeslaur> not like I have anything better to do
<robbiew> :/
<mdeslaur> (besides the list my wife made me)
<kees> heh
<robbiew> http://www.sadtrombone.com
<jdstrand> o/
<jjohansen> o/
<kees> heya jjohansen
<mdeslaur> hahaha
<jdstrand> hehe (list)
<jjohansen> :)
<kees> jdstrand: uhm, you start?
<jdstrand> ok
<jdstrand> I am triager this week
<kees> (I'm stalling to read the needs-fixing list)
<jdstrand> I have two updates I'm going to try to get out
<jdstrand> I also *need* to get the firefox apparmor profile going for 3.6, for when 3.6 hits karmic this month
<jdstrand> and have an appropriate upgrade path
<jdstrand> since kees is community this week, I want to hand off bug #446838
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 446838 in squirrelmail "Multiple cross-site request forgery (CSRF) vulnerabilities in SquirrelMail 1.4.19 and earlier" [High,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/446838
<jdstrand> it is in -proposed right now
<kees> yeah, I saw that going back and forth this last week
<jdstrand> that is the first sponsored upload to follow the new SponsorshipProcess for security uploads
<jdstrand> incidentally, I emailed ubuntu-devel and blogged about the new process
<kees> nice
<jdstrand> the important links for people are:
<jdstrand> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/UpdatePreparation#Submission
<jdstrand> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SponsorshipProcess
<jdstrand> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/SponsorsQueue
<jdstrand> kees: I'm pretty sure I made a few tweaks to SponsorsQueue after you reviewed it last week, based on what I was doing with squirrelmail
<jdstrand> but they were minor
<ScottK> jdstrand: It might be worth a mention on ubuntu-devel-announce.  Not everyone is on ubuntu-devel
<kees> yeah, I saw the wiki edits going by.  I had enough context that the changes made sense from what I saw in email.
<jdstrand> kees, mdeslaur: I figure that whoever is on community will work the SponsorsQueue
<kees> really excellent stuff.
<jdstrand> ScottK: ack
<kees> jdstrand: right
<jdstrand> kees, mdeslaur: and maybe we hand off like I did today for stuff that didn't make it all the way through during the previous week
<jdstrand> does that sound reasonable?
<jdstrand> kees: and "thanks" for you positive comment :)
<mdeslaur> sounds good
<kees> jdstrand: yeah, a good idea.  and even if not formally handed off, it should still be the current week's person's responsibility to check on the state of sponsored stuff
<jdstrand> really, it all grew out of that meeting we all attended (including ScottK)
<mdeslaur> and yeah, good job jdstrand on that
<jdstrand> so thanks to all of you :)
 * robbiew can feel the love!
<robbiew> lol
<jdstrand> kees: sounds fine
<kees> heh
 * jdstrand hugs robbiew 
<jdstrand> ;)
<jdstrand> that's it from me
<kees> ok, I'll go
<kees> I tweaked the workitems reporter to show priority in the per-assignee break-outs so we can see our stuff kind of in a list of what we should work on next
<kees> (it's additionally sorted by bp completion level, so the bps closest to be done are at the top of each priority section)
<jdstrand> kees: I'm looking at http://piware.de/workitems/security/lucid/report.html
<kees> this week I'm going to try to sort out the open xen and kvm CVEs, and maybe take mutt and mysql (though I'm shy of mysql without going and reading the CVEs)
<jdstrand> oh nm
<jdstrand> (still reading though)
<kees> jdstrand: righto.  I like how our green continues to shoot up, but we never seen to get the red too much lower.  ;)  kind of like our updates work.  :)
<jdstrand> heheh
<jdstrand> yeah...
<kees> anyway, I'm find with graphs showing reality.
<kees> s/find/fine
<jdstrand> on a related note...
<kees> I expect there to be another karmic kernel update before xmas, thanks to more ext4 issues.
<jdstrand> :(
 * jdstrand pauses the related note
<kees> oh, that's about it from me.  what's the related note?
<jdstrand> on an unrelated note...
<jdstrand> I updated https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/ReleaseStatus/Lucid
<jdstrand> this is what is looked at during the weekly ReleaseStatus meeting
<jdstrand> please have a peek at it
<jdstrand> I decided to only list our Essential bps
<jdstrand> but make the others easy to find
<jdstrand> I think this reflects more what we are doing and how we work
<jdstrand> I did not automate the wiki generation like some other teams did
<kees> jdstrand: agreed, that sounds about right
<kees> (only listing essential)
<jdstrand> but, then, there are only 5 essential items
<jdstrand> and I ran out of time. I'll likely update the wiki for the status of those manually for now
<kees> well, we're not staffed for development, so that's 5 more than we're expected to have.  ;)
<jdstrand> heh
<robbiew> ack
<robbiew> ;)
<jdstrand> that's it for the (un)related note
<kees> like... seriously, ext4 omg: http://www.kernel.org/pub/linux/kernel/v2.6/ChangeLog-2.6.32.1
<kees> anyway, mdeslaur, you're up
<mdeslaur> I'm on vacation
<robbiew> lol
<jdstrand> kees: is that another karmic specific, or all?
<kees> mdeslaur: done!  :)
<mdeslaur> this week, I plan on 1- getting drunk, 2- plastering the basement, in no particular order
<jdstrand> mdeslaur: excellent vacation work btw :P
<kees> jdstrand: not sure currently, I need to dig through the commits.  but man, that is a lot of ext4 fixes.  :(
 * jdstrand nods
<kees> jjohansen: you've got a few items on the security team workitem list.  anything you need help with there?
<robbiew> at least we can address them BEFORE the LTS ;)
 * jdstrand wonders how many of those have been reported because Karmic has it by default...
<kees> dunno.
<jjohansen> not yet
<kees> jdstrand: who is coffeedude.jerry, and how do we get him to do his two essentials?  :)
<jjohansen> I think things are going alright but we will see how things look heading into next week
<jdstrand> kees: Jerry Carter
<kees> jjohansen: cool
<kees> jdstrand: ah! yes, that jerry.  :)
<jdstrand> kees: he is talking to the likewise people-- I've discussed the bug with him-- they are handling it in their lucid/likewise work
<jdstrand> well, he *is* likewise people, but he is discussing it with more likewise people
<kees> ok, cool.  wasn't sure how we'd hear back on their status.  but I'm cool now that my brain connected to the right jerry.  :)
<jdstrand> heh
<liel> Hello
<kees> hi
<jdstrand> the apparmor part of that bug is fixed, likewise just needs to be updated
 * kees nods
<jdstrand> they will handle the upgrade/install path stuff
<kees> ok.  any other items anyone has to bring up?
<jdstrand> I stuck two bugs in 'Other Lucid-targeted bugs'
<jdstrand> (https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/ReleaseStatus/Lucid)
<jdstrand> feel free to add other important ones there
 * jdstrand thinks he is really done with ReleaseStatus/Lucid now
<kees> isn't the backingstore already a workitem?
<jdstrand> well it is, but the bug shows up in bug lists
<kees> ok
<jdstrand> I forget which one offhand-- but it is a release item bug iirc
<jdstrand> I went through that list last week, and I think those were the only two we had
<jdstrand> kees: btw, good job on the workitems changes-- it is nice :)
<jdstrand> so is that it?
<kees> jdstrand: thanks!
<kees> yeah, I think so.
<kees> thanks everyone!
<jdstrand> any questions for the security team?
<robbiew> thanks kees: jdstrand:
<robbiew> and mdeslaur  (if you're still sober:P)
<kees> heh
<jdstrand> haha
<jdstrand> robbiew: what, you won't thank a drunk man?
<robbiew> lol
<robbiew> wasn't sure if he could read still ;)
<mdeslaur> I'm still sober :)
<jdstrand> hehe
<mdeslaur> I decided to plaster first :)
<jdstrand> a) plaster, b) get plastered
<mdeslaur> lol
<zul>  // drunk fix later
#ubuntu-meeting 2009-12-15
<sabdfl> hello all
<czajkowski> sabdfl: morning
<popey> o/
<sabdfl> do we have all the wiki licensing folks?
<sabdfl> dholbach: can you lead this one, or do we need mdke?
<sabdfl> unfortunately i have another meeting on the half-hour
<popey> seems a bit quiet
<sabdfl> indeed
<sabdfl> popey: let's move onto your items
<popey> ok
<popey> so sounder...
<popey> General consensus in the CC seems to be shut it down.
<dholbach> sorry, I'm late
<popey> But there seems to be some merit in it being around as a discussion forum but one that needs to be somewhat more respectful.
<dholbach> sabdfl: let's defer the wiki until we have mdke here
<sabdfl> i'd be sad to shut it down
<sabdfl> but i don't read it, so wouldn't miss it
<sabdfl> has it continued to be a mess?
<dholbach> I don't think we ever actively moderated threads on mailing lists before, but it seems to be the only solution at times on ubuntu-users@ and sounder@
<popey> there's been some kickback from the regulars on sounder
<popey> some protesting that they believe it should still be around and should still have the free speech ethos
<popey> I don't know how many subscribers there are on sounder
<popey> i suspect only mako and elmo know this as they're the admins of the list
<sabdfl> me neither, but i don't think "free speech ethos" should trump "quality conversation and tone"
<popey> so don't know if there's a vocal minority, or if in fact they are the vocal _majority_
<popey> agreed
<dholbach> sabdfl: +1
<popey> there was some kickback that we'd turn it into a far too clean and clinical place
<popey> where people feel they can't be free to talk
<popey> for example there seems to be a "take it to sounder" mentality when things get out of control on other lists
<dholbach> my feeling is that it has turned from a chitchat mailing list to a forum for people to regularly misbehave
<ghostcube> if i allowed to say anything i would moderate the list, iam on the ccc discussion list in germany and this one isnt moderated, the garbage comeing into mail in folders is to heavy so there wont be a working discussion sometimes
<ghostcube> maybe its the same here
<popey> there is also a bit of a limit to what we can do in terms of moderation with mailman
<popey> its "set the moderate bit" or "ban"
<sabdfl> ghostcube: most like moderation, few like moderating
<ghostcube> ah ok :)
<popey> there do seem to be a diminishing number of people actually using sounder
<dholbach> how would you feel about more moderators and n+1 strike model for being moderated for a few weeks? I know that it sounds heavy but it would probably solve the problem :)
<popey> as is the case with many Linux based community lists IME
<dholbach> elmo says there's 438 subscribers on sounder@
<popey> ok, thats not many
<popey> the UK LoCo list has more than that
<popey> ~650
<dholbach> I don't think it's as actively advertised as other lists
<sabdfl> what is n+1 strike?
<dholbach> probably because of its unclear focus :)
<popey> fair point
<ghostcube> sabdfl: not using correct speach or atitudes so after n+1 he gets striekd out ?
<ghostcube> like saying 2 times stfu you will be kicked ?
<dholbach> sabdfl: n+1 was just a random number, but I was envisioning some kind of "3 strikes model" where you'd tell somebody to watch their tone 3 times and mention the  consequences (moderation for a few weeks), and then do it if doesn't help
<dholbach> ghostcube: I don't think that's the language we'd use there :)
<ghostcube> dholbach: nah just en example
<ghostcube> :D
<popey> i suspect some of the "worst offenders" would quit in protest
<elky> and we will bring out the tiny violins.
<popey> well, indeed
<elky> I stopped reading it years ago when it became a place-to-link-any-blog-post-ever-that-dissed-ubuntu slash FUDfest. I'd be surprised if there really are 438 people who actually care about it.
<ghostcube> what is the aim of the sounder list by default guys ?
<ghostcube> official mailing list free for all users to claim anything ?
<popey> "Anything goes Ubuntu community chit-chat and discussion list"
<popey> from https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/sounder
<popey> which is fundamentally wrong IMO
 * elky winces at the "anything goes" terminology
<dholbach> I personally don't think it'd be surprising to receive an email that tells me "could you please rephrase your last paragraph a bit" if I fly off the handle in a mailing list post
<sabdfl> that was fine back in the day, when Ubuntu was tiny
<ghostcube> oha long long ago
<ghostcube> :D
<maco> sounds like its like the Forums' Backyard (which is gone now) than the Community Cafe (which is how i guess it was intended?)
<popey> The problem with mailing lists is once someone has said something, it's in the archive forever, unless someone has the time/patience to scrub it out
<popey> with forums, posts can be redacted fairly easily
 * maco shoves the word "more" into that sentence
<maco> thats true
<popey> so the "can you rephrase that" either becomes public in which case you get others jumping on the thread making it worse..
<dholbach> does anybody have any other ideas about how to solve the problem?
<sabdfl> in principle, it's supposed to be a "wise forum for setting the direction of Ubuntu"
 * jussi01 has spotted only 3 CC members, do we have quorum or is this unofficial?
<sabdfl> but i suspect most of the key folks in Ubuntu don't participate, so if we defined it that way, it would fail
<popey> jussi01: we dont need quorum to discuss stuff :)
<sabdfl> and worse, set a bad tone for "wise words in Ubuntu land"
<maco> ping me if pleia2 needs to be woken. its not a long distance call for me :)
<cjwatson> has anyone seriously tried to "internally moderate" sounder (i.e. shift the culture to a more respectful tone, without technical means)?
<sabdfl> i'm leaning towards closing it down
<sabdfl> i don't see it playing a positive service, and moderation is work that could also be done elsewhere
<elky> cjwatson, know any volunteers?
<popey> It doesn't seem to serve much of a useful purpose
<cjwatson> I haven't read it for a few months but it was OK when I last read it
<sabdfl> or, work that could generate benefits elsewhere
<cjwatson> and actually vaguely interesting at times
<cjwatson> but the traffic was pretty low
<cjwatson> elky: those who are objecting to its tone, presumably; I don't have context
<sabdfl> we've sent a few "please moderate your tone here" emails to the list
<sabdfl> but since none of us read it regularly...
<popey> I do now :S
<dholbach> that has changed in recent months: https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/sounder/ (October 2009: "[ Gzip'd Text 275 KB ]")
<cjwatson> I wonder if this is one of those cases where the damage done by closing it is more than the damage done by ignoring it :)
<dholbach> admittedly that was a peak
<popey> cjwatson: I'm not convinced there are enough people who really care if it's there or not
<popey> a few vocal people, sure.
<popey> e.g.
<popey> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/sounder/2009-December/013568.html
<jussi01> Does it not serve a purpose that it lets these people with very vocal items sound off somewhere and not on other lists? (isnt that the point of it?)
<dholbach> I personally could very well live with it being closed down as it does not serve any purpose and lots of the more interesting posts that inform me of stuff that's going on somewhere else I read in blog posts or announces as well
<dholbach> but that wouldn't solve the problem with ubuntu-users@
<popey> ubuntu-users is probably easier to fix
<popey> because it has a more well defined purpose
<popey> dholbach: can you ask elmo how many are on -users?
<elky> jussi01, i know some people who like to blow stuff up to vent, but i don't necessarily let them do it in my house or to my stuff. I dont see a reason why bad behaviour should be tolerated in a corner just to keep it out of the way.
<sabdfl> popey: since you read it, do you sense that the tone could be improved just by remaining a positive force (i.e. publicly asking folks to tone it down when their language is unacceptable)?
<popey> sabdfl: well, I've asked twice now to "be nice" and it's resulted in some massive wandering threads. I can't tell yet if people are actually "being nicer"
<popey> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/sounder/2009-December/thread.html
<cjwatson> popey: ubuntu-users' problem isn't purpose, it's that it's vast :)
<popey> note the big "etiquette" thread
<dholbach> sabdfl: at least popey, pleia2 and I sent mails there which resulted in even more discussion, parts of it about "does the CoC apply to me, I'm not an Ubuntu member", etc.
<sabdfl> looks to me like a list that only exists because it existed
<dholbach> popey: 4720
<popey> wow
<popey> would it be worthwhile asking the community what they want?
<sabdfl> better to ask if they are willing to moderate it
<sabdfl> they WANT everything :-)
<popey> well, indeed, but I'm all out of spherical lunar devices atop thin wooden poles.
<sabdfl> my vote is to close down sounders if we can't find folks to moderate it who are not already hugely committed, i.e. sounders leaders, not other folks who are already doing a huge amount
<sabdfl> popey: will you chair the rest of the conversation?
<popey> ok
<dholbach> thanks sabdfl
<sabdfl> i think we can make a recommendation in email to the rest of the CC on these two items, with the statement that we'll act on the recommendation in a week unless it's a problem for a majority of the CC
<popey> ok
<dholbach> sounds good to me
<popey> We already have the code of conduct and a page describing mailing list etiquette..
<dholbach> so the topics would be 1) some kind of moderation guidelines? 2) future of sounder? 3) which other mailing lists probably need some kind of guidance?
<popey> ..we could mail both lists and ask for volunteers to moderate their lists
<popey> Ok, so we come up with a simple set of guidelines on the wiki?
<popey> Ask for contributions from the members of the list, or we construct that?
<dholbach> I think it's good to have a basis for the discussion
<popey> I fear design by committee
<popey> ok, so we start with a framework
<popey> and ask for contributions to it, and volunteers to implement it
 * dholbach nods
<popey> if we get no volunteers, sounder gets shutdown?
<dholbach> to me that sounds reasonable
<dholbach> we should go and see if the majority of the CC is behind that
<popey> yes
<popey> so, the same for -users?
<dholbach> +1 :)
<popey> hah
<dholbach> I think that'd fall under 3) of the open questions I mentioned above :)
<popey> given -users has 10x the number of users, and a massively higher signal:noise ratio, we would _suspect_ that there would be more people who might volunteer?
<dholbach> yes, that's what I think too
<popey> so we start with -sounder alone as the blueprint, and then roll to other lists, with -users being the likely 2nd one to hit?
<elky> make sure you recommend that the unexpecting victims use a separate email address. :P
<Pendulum> can I ask the obvious question of, what if the only volunteers are the ones causing the problems?
<elky> Pendulum, then the moderation will fail.
<Pendulum> (less likely on -users, but I could see it happening on -sounder)
<dholbach> Pendulum: we can always redact the decision
<Flare183> When does the Community Council meeting start?
<popey> Flare183: 35 mins ago
<elky> Flare183, half an hour ago
<ghostcube> :D
<ghostcube> http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar
<ghostcube> o.o
<Flare183> elky: Still going on?
<popey> yes
<elky> Flare183, indeed.
<maco> you walked into it
<Flare183> phew then then I didn't miss it
<dholbach> is there anything that needs decision apart from that?
<popey> don't think so
<dholbach> awesome
<popey> anyone else have any further comments?
 * Flare183 would like to see if he can become a Ubuntu member
<popey> Flare183: the cc doesn't do that anymore
<popey> the regional membership boards do
<popey> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Membership/RegionalBoards
<maco> Flare183: found a year old wiki page somewhere?
<popey> Ok, so action items:-
<Flare183> oh
<Flare183> :S
<popey> * Develop guidelines for ubuntu mailing lists moderation
<popey> * Run that past the CC
<popey> * Run that past the community
<popey> * Ask for volunteers on sounder to implement it
<popey> * Look for other lists to implement it
<popey> ??
<dholbach> (* Make a decision about the future of sounder@?)
<popey> should that go at the top?
<dholbach> probably
<popey> or should we look for moderators first?
<popey> i.e. if we had a bunch of people willing to moderate, would that not remove the need to shut it down?
<dholbach> although I think that having good guidelines will probably give more hope to the current situation and influence the decision :)
<dholbach> yeah
<jussi01> there is a little bit here: http://www.ubuntu.com/support/community/mailinglists/etiquette
<dholbach> yeah, that needs fleshing out
<popey> ok, so when we ask for volunteers, we say that if there are none, or they are not of sufficient quality then we will/may shut the list down?
<cjwatson> for moderation: http://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelModeration may be worth comparing. (But ubuntu-devel doesn't have particularly significant social problems; the moderation issues there are simply making sure it's on-topic.)
<dholbach> that'd be my proposal too, let's see if we can get majority
<popey> (thats a specific sounder requirement, not of all lists)
<dholbach> thanks cjwatson
<popey> Ok, anything else?
<dholbach> not from me
<popey> Anyone else?
 * dholbach will update the TeamReport
 * popey will mail the cc with a summary
<dholbach> thanks a bunch popey
<popey> *hugs*
<dholbach> yeehaw
<dholbach> adjourned?
<popey> unless anyone has any other business for us..
<popey> 5
<popey> 4
<popey> 3
<popey> 2
<popey> 1
<popey> adjourned
<dholbach> thanks everyone
<czajkowski> popey: *hugs*
<liel> Hello
<popey> hi liel
<liel> Will EMEA meeting today  be short?
<liel> ?
<liel> I see it takes only 1 hour, but it usually took more time...
<liel> *it will take
<liel> ?
<persia> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 07:00. The chair is persia.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
 * GrueMaster reports in.
 * asac waves
<persia> Welcome to this week's Mobile Meeting
<persia> Agenda is up
<persia> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileTeam/Meeting/2009/20091215
<asac> JamieBennett: plars: dyfet`: there? ;)
 * StevenK shores
<JamieBennett> yep
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileTeam/Meeting/2009/20091215
 * asac knew that stevenk would be here ;)
<plars> asac: yep
<persia> OK.  First up is action items.
<persia> [TOPIC] Action Item review from last week
<MootBot> New Topic:  Action Item review from last week
<asac> first item was done
<persia> davidm and ogra to investigate mksquashfs issue on pegatron board
 * ogra secretly lurks doing a coffeebreak from housekeeping
<JamieBennett> lol
<asac> yes. we found that mksquashfs isnt ready for all latest compiler flags
<persia> Cool.
<asac> so we went back to -marm
<persia> Next.
<persia> asac to discuss work items/burndown/reporting for liquid with ian_brasil
<asac> i followed up with ian_brasil ... he added work items
<asac> they ar enow tracked on our chart afaict
<asac> i have to approve his spec still, but take that as an action for htis week
<persia> great.
<persia> [ACTION] asac to approve outstanding liquid specs
<MootBot> ACTION received:  asac to approve outstanding liquid specs
<asac> since its not really in the form we would like it
<asac> thanks
<persia> OK.  Moving on.
<persia> [TOPIC] http://piware.de/workitems/mobile/lucid-alpha2/report.html
<MootBot> New Topic:  http://piware.de/workitems/mobile/lucid-alpha2/report.html
<persia> [LINK] http://piware.de/workitems/mobile/lucid-alpha2/report.html
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://piware.de/workitems/mobile/lucid-alpha2/report.html
<persia> This doesn't look so ideal.
<JamieBennett> no
<JamieBennett> but I think a bunch (especially from me) will be changed to done by the end of the week
<persia> Lets see what's blocking, in reverse order of completion level.
<plars> would be nice to make some good progress on that before the break too
<persia> StevenK: You're at 0, but for a very low number of items.  Any blockers?
<asac> there are quite a few low hanging fruits on the suspend-resume testing spec
<StevenK> persia: Yes; https://code.edge.launchpad.net/~stevenk/launchpad/netbook-cron/+merge/16115
<asac> GrueMaster: sorry to bug again, but could you go through the "documentation" work items for the suspend resume testing spec so we get below the trendline again?
<persia> Excellent.  Issue identified.
<StevenK> But that is handled by the LP folks, so I have to sit tight, but it blocks my livecd-rootfs upload
<GrueMaster> I'll try to get on it later today (during living hours).
<asac> GrueMaster: yeah. we dont want you to do that before coffee ;)
<persia> dmart: You're also at 0.  Any issues?
<persia> We'll catch up.
<asac> persia: he has a few items on the lightweight browser spec
<asac> according to my books
<asac> though those are blocked by not yet having chromium
<persia> asac: Cool.  Thanks.  Where are we on chromium?
<asac> build works, upstream landed another set of arm packages. waiting for new builds to finish
<persia> Sounds like progress so dmart can get unblocked soon.
<asac> s/packages/patches/
<persia> GrueMaster: You said you're going to comment on stuff when you're actually awake, right?
<asac> every biuld might be a good build ;) ... i hope we get that working asap
<StevenK> asac: I have to upload it? Since according to the work items, it's me
<GrueMaster> No, I said I'd work on the suspend/resume test plan when I'm awake.
<persia> GrueMaster: OK.  Anything blocking you that keeps you at 2%?
<asac> StevenK: you have to do the archive admin part. you could start on reviewing licensing etc.
<GrueMaster> I've been focusing on the lsb conversion (which I have good progress to report).
<StevenK> asac: Oh, that task. Excuse me, I need to find a rusty knife.
<plars> GrueMaster: let me know if you need help with anything
<asac> StevenK: then we file issues upstream and if they are not illegal get a good faith exception from TB for inclusion if we see there is progress
<asac> StevenK: the package includes some high level summary tool which should help
<persia> GrueMaster: OK.
<asac> just sync with me or fta after the meeting
<persia> asac: You're at 7%.  Anything blocking you?
<asac> or tomorrow (guess its late)
<asac> persia: yes. the chromium build working
<asac> the other thing is firefox 3.6 in the archive, that will happen soonish
<persia> OK.  That's two people blocked on that.  At least we already have progress :)
<asac> but besides from the task itself blocking me i am not blocked ;)
<persia> Everyone else seems to be above trend, so I'll just ask if anyone has some blocking issue they want to raise.
<asac> we are blocked on dove
<dmart> persia: "You're also at 0. Any issues?": Can you explain what you mean?
<JamieBennett> I would like comment on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ARM/CasperSpeedup by more knowledgeable people if possible
<asac> had a call with michael this morning
<plars> ping?
<asac> he wants us to do some preparations so he can start right away
<persia> dmart: Looking at http://piware.de/workitems/mobile/lucid-alpha2/report.html, you're currently reported as having completed 0 of your 3 workitems.
<asac> yes. those are all related to benchmarking
<asac> of browsers
<persia> dmart: asac explained that you're blocked on having a chromium build ready to benchmark..
<asac> thats blocked on me
<asac> JamieBennett: can you reproduce the slowness locally?
<asac> e.g. by running debconf-communicate
<asac> before disabling all debconf stuff on arm, i would like to narrow down where the time gets lost
<JamieBennett> asac: I haven't tried to do individual debconf-communicate calls yet
<asac> yeah. i would think looking closer there is the next step
<asac> as making this decently quick will give us a notable boost i expect
<JamieBennett> OK, we can talk implementation bits after the meeting.
<asac> right
<persia> OK.  Anything else about the alpha-2 chart?
<JamieBennett> We got a code drop on 2D launcher
<dmart> I was not aware of the actions assigned to me... looks like if you're not subscribed to a blueprint you never see this info.
<StevenK> \o/
<JamieBennett> so that should be good to go now
<asac> dmart: hmm. sorry about that. thought we discussed that ;)
<asac> let me subscribe you
<persia> JamieBennett: Cool.  Could you update that task on the tracker?
<asac> dmart: but i would have pinged you anyway when the bits are available
<JamieBennett> persia: will do after I've reviewed its actually what we wanted ;)
<persia> heh :)
<asac> dmart: subscribed
<dmart> Thanks
<persia> OK.  Moving on.
<dmart> Releasing the browser benchmark is ongoing; also there is not firefox for lucid yet.
<asac> ok one thing
<persia> OK.  Not moving on :)
<asac> would be great if everyone checks if there are low hanging fruits and get those done
<asac> we will have holiday season so being below the trendline is probably the onlyt hing how we can make it to close to zero
<dmart> All, are there any other actions on me I don't know about?
<asac> also if you are done with your tasks, dont refrain from jumping on work itesms assigned to others
<asac> just sync with them and help out ;)
<StevenK> asac: I'm working on stuff, but the rename involves touching lots of stuff
<asac> StevenK: thats desktop?
<StevenK> asac: Nah, the UNR -> UNE rename
<persia> dmart: The benchmarking ones are the only ones I see in even the full lucid report.
<asac> StevenK: right. isnt that currently done in the desktop team officially?
<dmart> OK, thanks
<asac> StevenK: if its not, do you want to add more work items to the mobile-*une spec?
<davidm> asac, we are on the hook for the name change
<asac> davidm: right. i know that StevenK does that. just wasnt sure if its tracked as part of mobile or desktop
<asac> e.g. where the reporting goes to etc.
<davidm> Ah good point
<asac> i am fine to have it in this meeting. just not sure
<StevenK> I was thinking both davidm and Rick. But that's me
<asac> i would suggest that StevenK attends the desktop Asia meeting
<asac> and gives us a summary of status here
<asac> whats the blueprint for the rename?
<asac> isnt that a desktop-lucid- one?
<StevenK> One-line summary: Blocked on Launchpad changes, then livecd-rootfs, cdimage changes and then unrds -> unds
<StevenK> asac: desktop-lucid-une
<asac> StevenK: one question for you: how will we switch our arm images from desktop to une (which i guess is what has to happen for the 2d launcher)
<asac> do you have that on your list? or some other plan?
<StevenK> asac: That is for after the rename, and can be done by twiddling stuff on antimony
<persia> Might benefit from listed workitems, just to make the graph less bumpy.
<asac> StevenK: ok. is that tracked as a work item in the mobile-arm une? otherwise we might want to add that as a step
<StevenK> asac: It should be
<asac> https://blueprints.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/mobile-lucid-arm-une
 * StevenK twiddles
<persia> OK.  Are we done with alpha-2 work item status?
<asac> maybe one more item before the "initial seed changes" one
<asac> yes
<persia> Right.
<persia> It appears nobody added any special items to the agenda, so on to standing items.
<persia> [TOPIC] Lucid work item status
<MootBot> New Topic:  Lucid work item status
<persia> [LINK] http://piware.de/workitems/mobile/lucid/report.html
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://piware.de/workitems/mobile/lucid/report.html
<asac> same boat here i guess
<persia> This is just a big picture of what we saw before.
<persia> Anyone have any items that show up here that already have concerns or should be moved to alpha-2 ?
<asac> move to alpha-2? ;) ... we already have enough to do for that ;)
<asac> we have some blockage on canola evaluation ...
<persia> asac: You never know: maybe someone is going *really* fast, and moving completed items to alpha-2 would help the trendline :)
<persia> But that's scheduled for later.  Do we expect problems already, or is it just a later task?
<asac> but the canonla2 thing will make progress this week afaiu
<JamieBennett> dyfet: you have that as one of your tasks last week (canola)
<JamieBennett> did you review?
<persia> OK.  Let's review next week then, and see if we can bring it forward as completed.
<asac> persia: its not urgent. but we need to know if we go for it
<asac> as it requires work intensive development
<asac> to get in a suitable state for us
<persia> Yeah.
<asac> right
<persia> OK.  Anything else for lucid workitems?
<asac> next week we need to see progress on that
<JamieBennett> asac: I'll be looking at Canola this week
<persia> Moving on then.
<asac> thx
<persia> [TOPIC] ARM Image status
<dyfet> JamieBennett: I was waiting for it to be ready, so I will review also this week...sorry, having connectivity issues today...
<MootBot> New Topic:  ARM Image status
<persia> There was a crash in mandb that is being investigated, so we don't have any current images.
<persia> We should have some tomorrow or the next day (depending on your local timezone).
<asac> last imx51 image produced works oob afaik
<ogra> we had the same crash during A1
<asac> however, the image builder got stuck as it seems
<asac> last image produced was 13th Dec
<ogra> (no, i'm not here ... you're hallucinating)
<asac> that one should just work
<persia> Anyone test the 20091213 dove image?
<asac> GrueMaster: plars: so some testing food for you ;)
<plars> yes
<plars> still broken
<plars> same errors as before
<persia> OK.  So we're at 50% and don't have current builds.
<asac> ncommander will be back soonish
<persia> I'll take an action to watch those and make sure we're in better shape next week.
<asac> thats when we will do the serious evaluation
<GrueMaster> I can't do dove testing and lsb conversion at the same time.
<persia> [ACTION] persia to watch the builds and make sure they happen and are testable
<MootBot> ACTION received:  persia to watch the builds and make sure they happen and are testable
<asac> GrueMaster: imx51 has images
<asac> that work
<persia> Moving on.
<asac> thats what i referred to above
<persia> [TOPIC] Any Other Business
<MootBot> New Topic:  Any Other Business
<persia> Anyone have any last-minute items to raise for discussion?
<GrueMaster> Just wanted to give an update to the lsb conversion
<asac> GrueMaster: go ahead
<persia> [TOPIC] LSB conversion status
<MootBot> New Topic:  LSB conversion status
<persia> GrueMaster: Go.
<GrueMaster> One test suite has converted so far.  OLVER tests ran overnight.  5693 tests passed.  66 failed.
<asac> GrueMaster: did you push your work to some bzr branch or something?
<GrueMaster> Of the failures, 24 are new.
<asac> e.g. the patches etc.
<GrueMaster> Not yet.  That is the next step.
<dyfet> I remember those :)
<asac> GrueMaster: what failsures are those?
<asac> GrueMaster: ok great.
<JamieBennett> I have sent a mail to the @ubuntu-mobile list inviting the community to report weekly work they are doing just like we do
<GrueMaster> I don't know what the failures are.  I'm looking at the results as we type.
<asac> GrueMaster: so 24 new means. that 24 tests that work with karmic libs are now broken?
<GrueMaster> no.  24 failures that the test suite didn't find in  the central LSB database.
<GrueMaster> 41 failures are known test issues.
<GrueMaster> I.e. in the database.
<asac> ok
<persia> GrueMaster: Will your results be available on a wiki page or something for investigation?
<asac> GrueMaster: for us most important is the karmic vs. lucid comparision
<asac> i wouldnt assign too high prio to the 24 new failures (at least not block the progress)
<GrueMaster> I can look into posting this for those that are interested.
<asac> sure.
<GrueMaster> As to the 24 failures, I need to make sure that they aren't due to something I missed.
<persia> [ACTION] GrueMaster to post LSB test failures for investigation
<MootBot> ACTION received:  GrueMaster to post LSB test failures for investigation
<persia> GrueMaster: Anything else about LSB conversion?
<GrueMaster> That's it so far.
<persia> OK.
<persia> JamieBennett: You injected something interesting there:
<asac> so on image front lamont now killed the hung mandb process ... so hopefully we get new images latest today
<persia> [TOPIC] Weeky Reports
<MootBot> New Topic:  Weeky Reports
<asac> ;)
<asac> haha
 * JamieBennett reposts I have sent a mail to the @ubuntu-mobile list inviting the community to report weekly work they are doing just like we do
<JamieBennett> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-mobile/2009-December/002629.html
<JamieBennett> Community members are encouraged to add to the weekly page
<persia> Anything else about that, or is it all in the email?
<asac> yep
<asac> JamieBennett: thanksfor that.
<JamieBennett> mostly in the mail but if you have a cool Ubuntu based mobile project consider editing the wiki page each week
<persia> OK.  Anyone else have anything they want to raise?
<StevenK> Can we visit a better time for the meeting? Starting at midnight and finishing at 1am is starting to hurt.
<GrueMaster> StevenK: maybe 5am for you would be better?
<asac> from what i understood there is no better time.
<StevenK> 5am is worse
<persia> I've run a bunch of calculations about meeting times, and strongly believe that 13:00, 20:00 and 21:00 are the best year-round times for the majority of the Ubuntu community.
<asac> or do we want to move to a rotating model?
<ogra> StevenK, i'm just renovating my basement, want to rent a room ? (that would solve your prob once and for all) :)
<persia> Personally, I don't really like 20:00.
<StevenK> ogra: Except that I don't speak the language
<persia> 13:00 is annoying for UTC-8 and UTC+11 and excludes UTC-11 and UTC+12
<davidm> 21:00 UTC works for me :-)
<persia> 21:00 is annoying for UTC+8
<ogra> StevenK, pfft, minor details
<persia> Oops.
<StevenK> Yeah, 2100 UTC is 6am for +8
<persia> [TOPIC] Meeting Times.
<MootBot> New Topic:  Meeting Times.
<persia> StevenK: 5am.
<StevenK> Oh, of course
<StevenK> My brain is still coded to think you're -2 hours from me
<persia> 22:00 is 0:00 in UTC+2 (European Summer)
<persia> I'm not in +8 :)
<StevenK> Which means if I don't get it, they do
<persia> Well, someone needs to get it.
<StevenK> Yeah
 * JamieBennett volunteers StevenK ;)
 * GrueMaster has it currently.
<StevenK> It means I tend to sleep in a bit on Wednesday, since I don't get to bed until 1:20am or so
<persia> Well, you both do (5:00 & 0:00 as a result of a 19-hour time difference)
<StevenK> Let's just agree timezones suck and move on
<persia> StevenK: Would you prefer 21:00 ?
<persia> I like that idea :)
<persia> [AGREED] timezones suck
<MootBot> AGREED received:  timezones suck
<StevenK> Haha
<persia> OK.  Anyone else have a topic ?
<dmart> I think there was an outstanding problem with alignment faults on Dove?
<asac> so no changes?
<dmart> plars and asac know about this
<persia> [TOPIC] alignment faults on Dove
<MootBot> New Topic:  alignment faults on Dove
<asac> yes. there seem to be two issues:
<plars> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux-mvl-dove/+bug/494831
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 494831 in linux-mvl-dove "Alignment trap/Unhandled fault errors on boot" [Critical,In progress]
<asac> 1st. current kernel doesnt even boot
<asac> 1nd. when we still had a working kernel (two uploads ago), ncommander reported sigills for everything
<asac> 2snd
<asac> argh
<asac> 2nd
<asac> so today i tlaked to michael (ncommander) and we agreed that we first should narrow down why the current kernel suddenyl doesnt even boot anymore
<asac> dmart: if you have input that makes this approach void, let us know ;)
<plars> asac: well, it boots
<plars> can get as far as a shell
<asac> hmm
<dmart> Not really... it may not even be related to the alignment faults.  Is the kernel being built as -marm?
<plars> just that pretty much anything you run after that spews the alignment faults and sigills
<dmart> plars: can we get a coredump from a faulting binary?
<asac> "* Starting init crypto disks...
<asac> Alignment trap: not handling instruction ed9f9b93 at [<000626f2>]
<asac> Unhandled fault: alignment exception (0x011) at 0x00062942"
<asac> isnt that in kernel?
<asac> oh ... ericm posted a patch
<asac> 12 minutes ago
<asac> https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux-mvl-dove/+bug/494831
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 494831 in linux-mvl-dove "Alignment trap/Unhandled fault errors on boot" [Critical,In progress]
<asac> https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux-mvl-dove/+bug/494831/comments/7
<plars> dmart: will try, so far my attempts to get anything useful have failed
<ogra> "init" really doesnt sound like kernel
<JamieBennett> Isn't there a patch now?
<JamieBennett> (just got a mail)
<asac> yes
<dmart> Are we still building the mvl kernel with -marm?
<asac> JamieBennett: read a few lines above ;)
<asac> good question
<asac> dmart: afaik yes.
<plars> ah, nice timing eric!
<asac> ok cool. so we have a way forward it seems
<ogra> btw, why is dove still at .31 ?
<asac> good question
<asac> let me take that as an action
<asac> persia: ^^ (figure out why we are still at .31)
<dmart> Be sure to ping me if that patch doesn't resolve the problem
<asac> also add an action for dyfet to do a test kernel build with that patch
<persia> [ACTION] asac to figure out why dove still uses a 2.6.31 kernel
<MootBot> ACTION received:  asac to figure out why dove still uses a 2.6.31 kernel
<asac> discussed with ncommander that i t would be good if dyfet could prepare a kernel
<persia> [action] dyfet to prepare a test kernel build with the patch in bug 494831 (comment 7)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 494831 in linux-mvl-dove "Alignment trap/Unhandled fault errors on boot" [Critical,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/494831
<MootBot> ACTION received:  dyfet to prepare a test kernel build with the patch in bug 494831 (comment 7)
<asac> thanks
<asac> cool
<persia> OK.  Anything else about alignment faults on dove?
<plars> imx51 is still on -31 too, no?
<asac> yes. imx51 will stay on 31
<ogra> plars, yes, thats wanted
<asac> that was discussed/planned
<asac> htough we will get a new kernel
<plars> right, I was thinking the plan was the same for dove for some reason
<asac> using freescale kernel directly rather than our stuff
<plars> maybe I am mixing them up
 * plars hits the caffeine button a few more times
<asac> dove -> .32
<asac> imx51 -> .31
<asac> thats the current plan
<persia> Um, I have a topic then.
<davidm> Freescale to stay on .31
<persia> [topic] imx51 kernels
<MootBot> New Topic:  imx51 kernels
<davidm> Marvell to move to .32
<persia> So, under which workitems are the activities of documenting all the subsystems we want backported from .32 into the imx51 kernel?
<asac> persia: we only had an informational blueprint
<asac> persia: also add an action for me to check with kernel team about their pre-upload testing. e.g. can we prevent that we end up with a non-bootable kernel in future etc.
<asac> persia: i think the subsystem backporting was supposed to be done on-demand
<asac> ogra: ?
<asac> (sorry)
<ogra> well, we surely need aufs, apparmor etc
<persia> OK.  I just fear that we haven't identified the set of subsystems to backport.
<persia> Also, anything needed for the new boot system.
<ogra> as well as fast boot changes
<ogra> seems thats documented nowhere
<persia> And the standard kernel/userspare hardware stuff, like ALSA, ASoC, bluetooth, lirc, etc.
<ogra> preferably all the improvements that are done in house by kernel or foundations team in the .32 tree should be backported (might be an utopic wish though)
<asac> i would like to not add all the ubuntu sauce on top of it
<asac> at least prefer it ... ;)
<persia> We need some of the sauce though.
<ogra> well, we need the bootspeed stuff
<persia> It's mostly a matter of identifying *what* needs to be backported.
<ogra> as well as aufs and apparmor
<asac> yes. however, i was tolded alsa isnt an issue
<persia> Whoever told you that doesn't read ALSA bug reports :)
<ogra> alsa lives out of tree afaik
<asac> same for other stuff (usually its userspace that must not be out of date)
<asac> persia: dtchen ;)
<ogra> well, often its userspace that needs certain new kernel features too
<asac> yes. but he assured me that its not the case for alsa/pulseaudio
<persia> Well, then alsa did get out-of-tree.  It didn't used to be that way.
<asac> i can reconfirm that
<ogra> i.e. we'll totally lose on faster booting without cshurbi's patches
<GrueMaster> also dtchen works on x86 alsa (unless someone has given him a babbage and dove recently).
<persia> So, rather than rehashing here (we're nearly out of time).
<persia> Can we just have an action to update somewhere?
<asac> GrueMaster: right. i expect there to be close to zero patches
<asac> for arm in our tree ;)
<persia> [action] asac, ogra, persia to make sure .32 backporting for imx51 kernels is documented somewhere.
<MootBot> ACTION received:  asac, ogra, persia to make sure .32 backporting for imx51 kernels is documented somewhere.
<ogra> right, there only the device drivers count and we get these from FSL
<GrueMaster> I'd like to see at least one patch for babbage - to make audio work.
<asac> persia: right. thanks
<ogra> GrueMaster, ??
<persia> OK.  Anything else that *needs* to be now?
<ogra> GrueMaster, wrks since ages ?
<plars> GrueMaster: mine works
<asac> i think we are fine
<persia> THanks then.
<persia> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 08:00.
<asac> so one more thing. in case you dont see me and need me urgently during holiday
<asac> just call my cell
 * ogra goes back to sniff wet paint
<asac> first ping me here ... i will check in the evenings usually
<asac> ogra: get a mask ;)
<ogra> pfft ... less fun
<asac> or send an SMS
 * ogra giggles madly
<asac> ogra: enjoy!!
<ogra> doing ! :)
<asac> ogra: and do some nordic waling
<ogra> lol
<cjwatson> mdz,kees,Keybuk: TB?
<kees> cjwatson: ya beat me to it.
<pitti> hello
<kees> any pittis or sabdfls around?
<mdz> cjwatson: hi
<kees> ah-ha!
<Keybuk> cjwatson: I'm here
<cjwatson> kees: wiki says you're chairing
<kees> cjwatson: yup
<Keybuk> slightly distracted by fixing the carnage kees caused <g>
<cjwatson> I poked sabdfl on #canonical
<kees> uhm..
<mdz> sabdfl just returned to his desk and sat down
<kees> Keybuk: what carnage?  (I just woke up...)
<mdz> kees: #startmeeting?
<kees> ok, that's everyone, I think.
<kees> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 09:02. The chair is kees.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<kees> [topic] review action items
<MootBot> New Topic:  review action items
<kees>  * cjwatson checking on IS RT #36139 to add devel-permissions
<cjwatson> done
<kees>  * Scott to redraft Units policy to address Scott's and Matt's concerns and clean up language
<mdz> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel-announce/2009-December/000654.html
<mdz> (previous meeting minutes)
<kees> [link] https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel-announce/2009-December/000654.html
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel-announce/2009-December/000654.html
<mdz> Keybuk:
<kees> Keybuk: any updates on the units policy?
<Keybuk> none, I haven't had a chance to get to it
<kees> [action] Scott to redraft Units policy to address Scott's and Matt's concerns and clean up language
<MootBot> ACTION received:  Scott to redraft Units policy to address Scott's and Matt's concerns and clean up language
<mdz> should this be redelegated?
<Keybuk> if someone else has a few more free cycles than me, they are more than welcome
<mdz> Scott doesn't seem to have the bandwidth, so maybe someone else could work on it
<mdz> it's been punted the past few meetings
<kees> hard to say, it was specifically Keybuk's issues yes?
<kees> in that redelegation makes it tricky if Keybuk doesn't like the result.  :)  but it would be nice to move it forward.
<mdz> we could ask for help
<mdz> I just don't want to see an action carried from meeting to meeting without an expectation that it can be completed
<mdz> it's bad meeting mojo
<pitti> what were the remaining points again?
<mdz> it's all in the TB archives, I'd have to dig itup
<pitti> (it seemed like a ten-minute thing the last time we talked about it)
<mdz> I said: "Looks fine to me, except for the "must add an option [to all command-linetools]" bit."
<mdz> which was clearly unreasonable
 * pitti actually likes that
<bdale> fyi, all, I'm on the way out the door for a customer meeting and so won't be able to participate today
<Keybuk> pitti: find a free character in ps? :p
<pitti> otherwise we'd be stuck with ls etc. showing the "wrong" thing forever; and conveniently they already have --si switches
<kees> bdale: no worries, thanks for letting us know.  :)
<mdz> pitti: there are a *lot* of command line programs in Ubuntu, and there is no way we will patch them all to support a --si flag
<pitti> mdz: no, but we wouldn't stop people from adding them individually either (through upstream, etc.), would we?
<Keybuk> pitti: the policy in the current working requires us to add them
<mdz> pitti: no, I wouldn't think so
<pitti> it's certainly not something we should focus on
<sabdfl> have we socialised this with the Debian TC?
<kees> sabdfl: the units policy in general or the --si flag in particular?  (neither I think)
<mdz> pitti: I don't want to create a policy which immediately generates hundreds or thousands of violations
<kees> what about weakening the language to 'should' instead of 'must' ?
<pitti> mdz: so it should say "should" perhaps, to be a recommendation
<mdz> that would be better
<mdz> kees: this is becoming an agenda topic in its own right, under the guise of an action review ;-)
<sabdfl> kees: both
<kees> mdz: agreed.
<pitti> OTOH that's exactly what the policy is meant to do, so these "hundreds of violations" wouldn't just be an artifact
<Keybuk> mdz: if only my day job weren't so demanding of my time <g>
<kees> ok, I see two things todo now on it.
<kees> 1) actually get the policy finalized
<kees> 2) present it to debian tc
<cjwatson> pitti: the policy was meant to handle user-facing things, not really command-line programs
<cjwatson> we're trying to avoid having to deal with the latter, more than anything :)
<mdz> [topic] units policy
<kees> [topic] units policy
<MootBot> New Topic:  units policy
<sabdfl> i think it's fine to aim to prioritize user-facing things, and accept a long tail of violations that are not widely exposed
<pitti> cjwatson: sure
<kees> mdz: do you want to take the language portion?  it sounds like we're all agreed on the meaning of the cmdline portion.
<kees> I can take the Debian TC part, via bdale.
<mdz> kees: the language wrt
<mdz> requirements on command line programs?
<kees> mdz: right.  it seems to be the main sticking point on the policy.
<mdz> kees: OK
<kees> [action] kees to present Units policy to Debian TC via bdale
<MootBot> ACTION received:  kees to present Units policy to Debian TC via bdale
<kees> [action] mdz to fix language wrt cmdline meaning in Unit policy
<MootBot> ACTION received:  mdz to fix language wrt cmdline meaning in Unit policy
<kees> ok to move on?
<mdz> y
<kees> [topic] action review
<MootBot> New Topic:  action review
<kees>  * Colin to clarify trademark/license distinction on licensing policy
<cjwatson> done, second para of http://www.ubuntu.com/community/ubuntustory/licensing
<kees> cool
<kees> [link] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/TechnicalBoardAgenda
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/TechnicalBoardAgenda
<kees> [topic] Status of ARM port vs. archive publishing (slangasek, mdz)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Status of ARM port vs. archive publishing (slangasek, mdz)
<cjwatson> uh, we had more actions
<kees> oh whoops, sorry
<kees> [topic] action review take 3
<MootBot> New Topic:  action review take 3
<kees>  * cjwatson to create a wiki reference for development teams to participate in the reorg
<mdz> kees: er, it looks like the language I took issue with in the policy has been fixed already ;-)
<cjwatson> done, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopers/TeamDelegation, would appreciate review
<kees> mdz: easy action item.  :)
<mdz> [link] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopers/TeamDelegation
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopers/TeamDelegation
<cjwatson> specifically there was one item there that Scott remembered but I didn't, so I'd like to check it
<cjwatson> but I added an item for this on the agenda, let's clear the actions first
<kees>  * ScottK to revise Kubuntu/UpdatesPolicy proposal based on TB meeting discussion
<kees> [link] https://wiki.kubuntu.org/Kubuntu/UpdatesPolicy
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.kubuntu.org/Kubuntu/UpdatesPolicy
<kees> it's not clear to me if this happened yet
<cjwatson> no edits since 2009-11-05
<kees> right, so, not done yet.
<mdz> ScottK: when would be a good time to revisit this?
<kees> I will check in with ScottK later today when he's unidle
<kees> [ACTION] kees to follow up with ScottK on Kubuntu/UpdatesPolicy updates
<MootBot> ACTION received:  kees to follow up with ScottK on Kubuntu/UpdatesPolicy updates
<kees>  * sabdfl to update LP/wiki/www to reflect the actual term length for TB
<kees> that's done, I think?
<sabdfl> done
<kees>  * cjwatson to nudge RT 35428
<cjwatson> done, and closed the bug
<kees> ok.  anything I missed before I go to next topic?
<sabdfl> i think i marked it fix-committed, if you're happy we can mark it fix-released
<cjwatson> sabdfl: it's fix-released
<kees> sabdfl: when I was writing up the notes from the TB meeting that I was on vacation for I flipped it from committed to released.
<cjwatson> kees: nothing I see, let's carry on
<kees> ok... for real:
<kees> [topic] Status of ARM port vs. archive publishing (slangasek, mdz)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Status of ARM port vs. archive publishing (slangasek, mdz)
<kees> slangasek: unidle?
<mdz> this is about Subject: armel in lucid: supported architectures vs. ports
<cjwatson> elmo's comment was that while this is technically possible the numbers are such that he would much rather we didn't (we'll lose quite a few mirrors); he said that if there's a load issue he can bring up some specialised mirrors
<kees> right. afaik, it was now to elmo?
<mdz> i.e. the fact that while armel is maintained, supported, blessed, etc. similar to i386 and amd64, it is on ports, while they are on archive
<mdz> and this is seen to be inconsistent
<cjwatson> I don't think it's a load issue, I think it's essentially just a consistency/aesthetic issue
<mdz> I pointed out that there was some ambiguity in the semantics of ports, and elmo said that cjwatson was writing a document I think
<cjwatson> I took an action in the platform/IS review meeting to write such a document, though haven't yet
<mdz> to me, the important distinction of ports vs. archive is mirroring
<mdz> and the mirroring configuration is perfectly appropriate for armel
<sabdfl> i think we can forego ARM mirrors
<cjwatson> which would basically be a public-facing document describing the meanings of archive vs. ports, cdimage vs. releases, etc. that we can point confused people to
<mdz> so I think it should be left where it is, but the semantics should be documented
<sabdfl> we can create dedicated bandwidth for *our* ARM mirrors if ARM folks feel hard done by
<cjwatson> sabdfl: right, elmo said the same; although I don't think that's where this discussion came from
<kees> cjwatson: shall I register an action for you for that doc?
<cjwatson> kees: yes please
<persia> Is it not also possible for interested external parties to create ARM mirrors (or arbitrary ports mirrors) if they desire?
<kees> [action] cjwatson to document meanings of archive vs. ports, cdimage vs. releases, etc.
<kees> so, with my security team hat on, which releases of armel are considered canonical-supported?  karmic and later?
<kees> and did mootbot die?
<pitti> however, it would potentially entail getting bug spam if the team doesn't have a contact address
<mdz> cjwatson: I don't recall previous discussion on that point, but I think it's a good idea
<cjwatson> but it's not one that we've enforced so far
<cjwatson> pitti: ubuntu-core-dev does
<pitti> cjwatson: I meant if e. g. kubuntu-dev doesn't have a contact address
<cjwatson> pitti: adding ubuntu-core-dev to the team won't change bug spam
<cjwatson> or at worst it'll all land on ubuntu-reviews@
<pitti> ^ ah, due to -core-dev's contact address, right
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopers/TeamDelegation
<cjwatson> right
<Datad> thats cool
<pitti> it's not unusual to subscribe such a team to a bug, etc.
<cjwatson> so if everyone's happy with that, I'll mail the teams that are delegated so far to ask them to make that change
<pitti> but all in all I'm also for having core-dev as a member, to mirror the permission reality and make bzr branches work
<mdz> agreed
<kees> +1
<cjwatson> ok, I'll take care of that
<pitti> ubuntu-desktop is okay, kubuntu-dev needs core-dev added
<cjwatson> [ACTION] cjwatson to add a bit more intro to UbuntuDevelopment/TeamDelegation, and link it from appropriate places
<kees> [ACTION] cjwatson to add a bit more intro to UbuntuDevelopment/TeamDelegation, and link it from appropriate places
<cjwatson> [ACTION] cjwatson to follow up with kubuntu-dev and mythbuntu-dev to get ubuntu-core-dev added
<kees> [ACTION] cjwatson to follow up with kubuntu-dev and mythbuntu-dev to get ubuntu-core-dev added
<kees> ok, next topic?
<mdz> y
<kees> ScottK: around for Kubuntu/UpdatesPolicy?
<Riddell> I can answer for that
<Riddell> it's waiting on a policy from upstream for minor point release updates
<kees> [topic] https://wiki.kubuntu.org/Kubuntu/UpdatesPolicy
<Riddell> upstream has one but it's never been written down
<Riddell> so I started that conversation with upstream and have a draft written down
<kees> Riddell: ok, cool.  is there any kind of ETA?
<Riddell> week or two?  (but then new years get in the way)
<kees> we'll keep this on the agenda then for next meeting.
<kees> [action] ScottK to update policy based on kubuntu upstream feedback
<kees> I'd like to defer "When is it a good idea to fail out of a maintainer script?" to the end since it went long last time.
<kees> [topic] Execute Permission Policy (KeesCook)
<kees> this is waiting for wording changes, iirc.
<mdz> from whom?
<kees> trying to find that now
<kees> # Execute Permission Policy:
<kees>     * The current policy will not handle all potential cases, such as OO.o macros or application cases which wer are unaware of
<kees>     * Colin: we should point out an alternative approach instead of just saying "No"
<kees>     * current impact: kill GNOME desktop "do you want to run it anyway?" question, remove a few MIME handlers
<kees>     * To be continued in the next meeting
<kees> that's where it stood from 2009-11-17
<kees> so, it needs something for the alternative approach.  wording for macros was handled.
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopers/TeamDelegation
<MootBot> ACTION received:  cjwatson to add a bit more intro to UbuntuDevelopment/TeamDelegation, and link it from appropriate places
<MootBot> ACTION received:  cjwatson to follow up with kubuntu-dev and mythbuntu-dev to get ubuntu-core-dev added
<MootBot> New Topic:  https://wiki.kubuntu.org/Kubuntu/UpdatesPolicy
<kees> [action] kees to clean up further and re-present at next meeting
<MootBot> ACTION received:  ScottK to update policy based on kubuntu upstream feedback
<MootBot> New Topic:  Execute Permission Policy (KeesCook)
<MootBot> ACTION received:  kees to clean up further and re-present at next meeting
<kees> [topic] Check up on community bugs (standing item)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Check up on community bugs (standing item)
<kees> just one
<kees> [link] https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu-community/+bug/485559
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu-community/+bug/485559
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 485559 in ubuntu-community "Mark Shuttleworth has no expiration date set in the tech-board LP team" [Low,Confirmed]
<kees> have I been netsplit again?
<pitti> wrt. "alternative approach", that should point to packaging and software-center?
<mdz> kees: no, you're fine
<sabdfl> i think this could turn into a conversations which exceeds our time limit :-)
<mdz> sounds like it should go on the CC agenda
<kees> ok, so, for actions...
<kees> is "sabdfl to propose to CC that the TB is a CC delegate" what you're expecting?
<sabdfl> sure
<kees> [action] sabdfl to propose to CC that the TB is a CC delegate
<MootBot> ACTION received:  sabdfl to propose to CC that the TB is a CC delegate
<kees> and the special case would be part of that proposal?
<sabdfl> mayyybe
<sabdfl> i need to think about it
<pitti> I have a call at 5, need to disappear
<kees> ok, thanks pitti!
<kees> the bug status should be updated with some discussion of what is happening.  sabdfl do you want to take that too?
<kees> chair next time?
<sabdfl> willdo
<kees> [action] update bug with status and discussion
<MootBot> ACTION received:  update bug with status and discussion
<crazybytes> Hello people !
<kees> cjwatson: will you chair next?
<cjwatson> yes
<kees> ok
<cjwatson> happy to
<kees> thanks everyone!
<kees> #endmeeting
<cjwatson> oh, one sec
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 10:00.
<kees> erg
<cjwatson> next time won't be two weeks, presumably :)
<cjwatson> 12 Jan?
<kees> ah, right.  next meeting is 12 Jan.
<kees> I'll note it in the, err, notes.
<sabdfl> thanks kees
<kees> thanks everyone!  have a great holiday!
 * rtg waves
 * apw fades in
<bjf> Roll Call
<apw> o/
 * ogasawara_ waves
<bjf> this could be interesting, freenode having problems?
<mhall119|work> freenode has been netsplitting all week
<apw> some sort of ddos
 * jjohansen here
<bjf> #startmeeting
<bjf> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/Meeting
<bjf> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/ReleaseStatus/Lucid
<bjf> NOTE: '..' indicates that you are finished with your input.
<bjf> [TOPIC] Open Action Item: amitk to meet with keybuk on automated boot tests
<MootBot> Meeting started at 11:02. The chair is bjf.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/Meeting
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/ReleaseStatus/Lucid
<apw> smb is on the other half of the split
<MootBot> New Topic:  Open Action Item: amitk to meet with keybuk on automated boot tests
<bjf> amitk, ??
<rtg> bjf, haven't seen him all morning
<bjf> [TOPIC] Lucid Release Status: Bugs (Release Meeting Bugs / RC Milestoned Bugs / Release Targeted Bugs
<MootBot> New Topic:  Lucid Release Status: Bugs (Release Meeting Bugs / RC Milestoned Bugs / Release Targeted Bugs
<ogasawara> Release Meeting Bugs (0 bugs, 4 blueprints) - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/ReleaseStatus/Lucid
<ogasawara> Alpha 2 Milestoned Bugs (17 bugs) - https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/lucid/+bugs?field.milestone%3Alist=21444
<ogasawara>  * 1 linux kernel bugs - https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/lucid/+source/linux/+bugs?field.milestone%3Alist=21444
<ogasawara>  * 2 linux-fsl-imx51 bugs - https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/lucid/+source/linux-fsl-imx51/+bugs?field.milestone%3Alist=21444
<ogasawara>  * 0 linux-ec2 bug - https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/lucid/+source/linux-ec2/+bugs?field.milestone%3Alist=21444
<ogasawara>  * 2 linux-mvl-dove bugs - https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/lucid/+source/linux-mvl-dove/+bugs?field.milestone%3Alist=21444
<ogasawara> * Release Targeted Bugs (69 bugs) https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/lucid/+bugs
<ogasawara>  * 4 linux kernel bugs - https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/lucid/+source/linux
<ogasawara>  * 3 linux-fsl-imx51 bugs - https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/lucid/+source/linux-fsl-imx51
<ogasawara>  * 1 linux-ec2 bugs - https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/lucid/+source/linux-ec2
<ogasawara>  * 2 linux-mvl-dove bugs - https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/lucid/+source/linux-mvl-dove
<ogasawara> ..
<bjf> [TOPIC] Lucid Release Status: Milestoned Features
<MootBot> New Topic:  Lucid Release Status: Milestoned Features
<ogasawara> Milestoned Features - https://edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+milestone/ubuntu-10.04
<ogasawara>  * 1 blueprint relating to the kernel - https://blueprints.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/kernel-lucid-new-kernel-on-lts
<ogasawara> ..
<bjf> [TOPIC] Blueprints: kernel-lucid-bug-handling (ogasawara)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Blueprints: kernel-lucid-bug-handling (ogasawara)
<bjf> [LINK] https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/kernel-lucid-bug-handling
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/kernel-lucid-bug-handling
<ogasawara> nothing new to report
<ogasawara> ..
<bjf> [TOPIC] Blueprints: kernel-lucid-review-of-ubuntu-delta (apw)
<bjf> [LINK] https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/kernel-lucid-review-of-ubuntu-delta
<MootBot> New Topic:  Blueprints: kernel-lucid-review-of-ubuntu-delta (apw)
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/kernel-lucid-review-of-ubuntu-delta
<apw> we've pulled in a bunch o fupdates fro the drivers there
<apw> still ongoing
<apw> ..
<bjf> [TOPIC] Blueprints: kernel-lucid-kernel-config-review (apw)
<bjf> [LINK] https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/kernel-lucid-kernel-config-review
<MootBot> New Topic:  Blueprints: kernel-lucid-kernel-config-review (apw)
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/kernel-lucid-kernel-config-review
<apw> the first version of config-enforcer is out for review.  will be posting an update today
<apw> ..
<bjf> [TOPIC] Blueprints: kernel-lucid-kms (sconklin)
<bjf> [LINK] https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/kernel-lucid-kms
<MootBot> New Topic:  Blueprints: kernel-lucid-kms (sconklin)
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/kernel-lucid-kms
<sconklin> apw's been doing most of the work on this
<sconklin> this week
<apw> we have enabled ATI KMS again in the upload after a-1
<apw> nouveau looks to be in linus' tree, and we have a potential to backport there
<apw> thats under review
<apw> ..
<bjf> [TOPIC] Blueprints: kernel-lucid-suspend-resume (manjo)
<bjf> [LINK] https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/kernel-lucid-suspend-resume
<MootBot> New Topic:  Blueprints: kernel-lucid-suspend-resume (manjo)
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/kernel-lucid-suspend-resume
<bjf> doesn't seem to be a manjo today
<apw> that blueprint needs sorting out as its not 'approved' yet and its coming up at the weekly release meeting each week
<apw> ..
<bjf> manjo is on holiday
<bjf> [TOPIC] Blueprints: kernel-lucid-apparmor-development (jjohansen)
<bjf> [LINK] https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/kernel-lucid-apparmor-development
<MootBot> New Topic:  Blueprints: kernel-lucid-apparmor-development (jjohansen)
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/kernel-lucid-apparmor-development
<jjohansen> apw sucked in upstream AA
<jjohansen> and I have been updating the regression tests
<apw> jjohansen, i sent you a build patch for that for non x86 platforms
<jjohansen> I also sucked in a patch from serge
<jjohansen> yep, just replied to that
<jjohansen> thanks
<jjohansen> ..
<apw> when we expecting the next update?
<bjf> [TOPIC] Blueprints: kernel-lucid-boot-performance (apw, csurbhi)
<bjf> [LINK] https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/kernel-lucid-boot-performance
<MootBot> New Topic:  Blueprints: kernel-lucid-boot-performance (apw, csurbhi)
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/kernel-lucid-boot-performance
<csurbhi> csurbhi ..
<jjohansen> next update, this week
<apw> we pulled in surbhi's performance patch and a couple of others
 * gnarl finally made it
<apw> looks like we got about .6s out of them, and hopefully a bit more elsewhere
<apw> ..
<jjohansen> sweet :)
<bjf> [TOPIC] Other Release Tasks: Lucid Audio Support (bjf)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Other Release Tasks: Lucid Audio Support (bjf)
<bjf> I've submitted a patch to increase the size of preallocated buffers which is supposed to help
<bjf> with users audio experience. This has been in Fedora for since 11.
<bjf> Also, I have c-o-d pretty well working for karmic. I'll be turning it on today. I was having
<bjf> some build issues in Lucid chroot since Alpha 1 which I need to work through and get it turned
<bjf> on as well.
<bjf> ..
<apw> bjf pulled that patch in
<bjf> apw, ack
 * apw wonders if its very quiet for everyone
 * ogasawara hears crickets
<sconklin> hrmph
<apw> i think our meeting got split
<jjohansen> yeah
<ogasawara> bjf is relaying my info, http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/342019/
<liel> Hello, again :)
<padhu> Hi
<MenZa> Seveaz is subject to teh netsplits
<Seveaz> gonna be fun having a meeting in this shitstorm :)
<MenZa> Seveaz: Oh yeah.
 * MenZa rides the wave.
 * MenZa grabs a handrail.
<Seveas> :)
<Seveas> hi MenZa
<MenZa> \o/
<MenZa> Evening Dennis :)
<Seveas> if freenode fails, we can move to OFTC for the meeting
<MenZa> Seveas: Channel?
<Seveas> #ubuntu-meeting :-)
<Seveas> but let's stay here for now. We'll see how it goes
<MenZa> certainly
<LjL> i predict another split just about... now :P
<Seveas> Ljinx:
<Seveas> LjL, you might like this: http://15.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_kunlq9Sf9L1qzmowao1_500.jpg
<MenZa> Already linked him to it!
<Seveas> hehe
<LjL> seen it :P
<MenZa> Stole it from your FB :3
<Seveas> :)
<Seveas> LjL, you were only a few minutes off :)
<LjL> Seveas: let's say i were wrong... "a few minutes off" would be a good guess on a normal day, but not today :P
<Seveas> ooh, burn :)
<LjL> i was, even
<Seveas> ok, fail
<MenZa> aye
<MenZa> In case of ChanServFail?
* Seveas changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Due to netsplit problems, EMEA meeting is moved to #ubuntu-meeting on irc.oftc.net | Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs
<MenZa> aha
<Seveas> I don't think we can succesfully have a meeting here :)
<MenZa> +1 on that
<MenZa> good thing there's not a massive list of candidates like last time
<Seveas> so far you're the only one, right?
<Seveas> (who made it to the channel)
<czajkowski> aloha
<czajkowski> :)
<MenZa> I think so
<Seveas> hi czajkowski
<MenZa> liel is here
<MenZa> ninnnu as well
<MenZa> So that makes three of us (in here)
<czajkowski> Seveas: what time do ye start at?
<Seveas> czajkowski, 20:00 in #ubuntu-meeting on irc.oftc.net -- freenode is too unstable today
<padhu> really?
<MenZa> \o Pici
<czajkowski> Seveas: ah ok fridge shows 7pm UTC
<czajkowski> as lococouncil is on at 8pm UTC
<Seveas> czajkowski, apologies, I was thinking in my local time
<Seveas> 7 UTC it is
<MenZa> cet ftw!
<czajkowski> Seveas: ok, was wondering how popey was going to be at this meeting and lococouncil
<MenZa> magic, czajkowski
<MenZa> asanchez: Change of plans, irc.oftc.net :)
<Seveas> czajkowski, split brain
<Pendulum> czajkowski: didn't you know he has special powers?
<czajkowski> it's in the hair do!
<MenZa> bahaha
<Seveas> forumsmatthew, please also join #ubuntu-meeting on irc.oftc.net -- we will likely hold the meeting there 'cause freenode is bonkers today
<Pendulum> czajkowski: it means people will see him years after his death, too ;)
<popey> o/
<popey> made it
<MenZa> \o/ popey
<Seveas> nice, the M25 has been conquered once more
<Seveas> popey, /topic -- we're moving to oftc because of the netsplits
<popey> O RLY?
<Seveas> yeah. freenode is too unstable :)
<forumsmatthew> see you there
<Flare183> Alright
<popey> you are kidding?
<Seveas> popey, no, ddos'es all day, netsplits as a result
<Flare183> popey: Seveas is right
<Flare183> announce.freenode.net
<Flare183> see for youself
<Flare183> yourself*
<czajkowski> Seveas: a lot of us haven't had issues, it;s only some people on some of the servers
<popey> Flare183: I'm not saying he's wrong
<Flare183> popey: Ok
<Seveas> czajkowski, netsplits affect everyone as the channel is, well, split :)
<czajkowski> Seveas: can you add it to the wiki page for ppl coming in here tonight for the meeting, so they know ?
<czajkowski> if it's not been done already
<popey> doubt people will look there
<Seveas> I'll keep an eye on this place
<popey> just keep an eye on this channel
<Seveas> let's start, see you on oftc!
<Seveas> those who joined for the emea board meeting: #ubuntu-meeting on irc.oftc.net
<LjL> you scared the servers :(
<padhu> what the topic?
<Pendulum> padhu: they've moved the meeting to #ubuntu-meeting on irc.oftc.net
<Pendulum> because of all the netsplits on freenode
<padhu> Pendulum: oh.
* popey changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Due to netsplit problems, LoCo Council meeting is moved to #ubuntu-meeting on irc.oftc.net | Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs
<Seveas> popey, you may want to use OFTC for the loco meeting as well :)
 * popey points Seveas to the /topic
<Seveas> doh, didn't see it
<Seveas> due to all the netsplitting :)
<popey> excuses
<highvoltage> heh
<technoviking> what netspl...
<ZachK_> finally
<Seveas> To those who joined for the loco meeting: please join #ubuntu-meeting on irc.oftc.net. Freenode is under attack and it's difficult to hold meetings when netsplits happen avery few minutes.
<maco> hahahaha
<Seveas> maco, it's not exactly funny :)
<maco> i think its funny that you're announcing a server change. actually...especially without putting it in /topic
<Seveas> it's in the topic :)
<maco> i fail at reading
<maco> nevermind
<ZachK_> maco: just don't laugh at all man
<maco> ZachK_: probably a good plan
<Pendulum> maco: i suggest that laughing is good for your health so don't worry about laughing just tell people you're laughing as a healthy exercise ;)
<ZachK_> i'm in the other server...is anyone there too?
<maco> Pendulum: i do find it funny/surprising that a network as big as freenode could be so disrupted.
<popey> given enough bots, any network can be disrupted I imagine
<ZachK_> maco: please...dude.....just let it go....
<ZachK_> trust me
<popey> o_O
<Seveas> maco, with enough resources, you can attack anything. And it's not hard at all to disrubt a network with a star layout such as freenode. All you need to attack are the hubs
<maco> oh it's a star?
<popey> ..dim and distant..
<maco> well now it makes perfect sense why it could get screwed up so easily, they're not exactly the most reliable network formation
<ZachK_> when is the meeting for new members scheduled to begin?
<Seveas> ZachK_, january 5th
<ZachK_> I thought it was for today
<Seveas> it was
<Seveas> at 19:00 utc
<Seveas> and it's all over already :)
<ZachK_> i was here.....
<popey> note the /topic
<popey> we moved to oftc due to the netsplits
<Seveas> it was also on oftc, as announced in the channel and in the topic
<popey> besides which ZachK_  you're not listed https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Membership/RegionalBoards/EMEA
<ZachK_> i did
<ZachK_> nevermind
<keffie_jayx> people
<JanC> maco: I'd think the larger an IRC network is the easier it is to disrupt 1 part of it  ;)
<keffie_jayx> please read the topic
<keffie_jayx> the meeting is in irc.oftc.net
<maco> keffie_jayx: we're just chatting
<maco> JanC: i figured theyd have the bandwidth to withstand a fairly big botnet
<keffie_jayx> no problem, feel free to chat
<keffie_jayx> but if anyone is interested ... we are over there
<keffie_jayx> Just a reminder... the LoCo Council Meeting is in irc.oftc.net #ubuntu-meeting
<keffie_jayx> ALGUIEN DE HONDURAS?
<keffie_jayx> Just a reminder... the LoCo Council Meeting is in irc.oftc.net #ubuntu-meeting
<keffie_jayx> Honduras is up
<DiegoTc> not late?
<popey> DiegoTc: no
<tatica1> :D
<popey> DiegoTc: we're in #ubuntu-meeting on irc.oftc.net
<popey> because of the netsplits here on freenode
<popey> so do join us
<DiegoTc> okay
<DiegoTc> hollman it is #ubuntu-meeting on irc.oftc.net
<PabloRubianes> irc.oftc.net
<keffie_jayx> Anyone here from EL Salvador?
<tatica1> czajkowski
<tatica1> can you tell me where can i get the Log of our approval?
<ulysses__> tatica1: You can find the logs of meetings here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs
<tatica1> ulysses_ thank you
<ulysses__> yw
<FFEMTcJ> Anyone around who change change the topic? Beginner Team meeting is going to oftc also.. popey ?
<popey> sure
* popey changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Due to netsplit problems, Beginner Team meeting is moved to #ubuntu-meeting on irc.oftc.net | Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs
<FFEMTcJ> Thank you popey !
<popey> np
<Silver-Fox-> Thank you
<Silver-Fox-> popey, erm,  Mootbot doesn't seem to be in OFTC #ubuntu-meeting.   :(
<DiegoTc> Silver-Fox-,  think popey left
<FFEMTcJ> Silver-Fox-: half the day i dont think MootBot has been in here either
<FFEMTcJ> heh
<czajkowski> FFEMTcJ: it wont be
<czajkowski> it's not on that server it's on here
#ubuntu-meeting 2009-12-16
* popey changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: | Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs
<zul> this is going to be a fun meeting
<zul> stupid netsplits
<jiboumans> zul: totally
<jiboumans> * bob joined the room
<jiboumans> <zul> And that's why I'll never wear a dress again!
<zul> *shudder*
<kirkland> o/
 * jjohansen \o
<jiboumans> \\o o//
<jiboumans> \o/
<zul> hey jjohansen
<mathiaz> ~o~
<jjohansen> heya zul
<jiboumans> ttx, smoser around?
<smoser> hola
<ttx> o/
<jiboumans> right, let's get started then
<jiboumans> #startmeeting
<MootBot> jiboumans, There is already a meeting in progress.
<jiboumans> o.O
<jiboumans> #endmeeting
<jiboumans> o..k.. now what? :)
<zul> right im going back to bed then ;)
<ttx> jiboumans: now you do it without mootbot, methinks
 * jjohansen wonders if it is still the kernel meeting from yesterday
<jiboumans> so no #reallyreallyendmeeting then
<jiboumans> moving along
<jiboumans> [TOPIC] Scribe assignment
<jiboumans> this week is zul's turn to do the minutes
<zul> whee
<jiboumans> next week is the next one in alphabetical order from the server team
<jiboumans> [TOPIC] review action points from previous meetings
<jiboumans> ACTION: jos to review/approve server-lucid-more-mail-integration
<mathiaz> jiboumans: alphabetical on the first or last name?
<ttx> on irc nicks
<jiboumans> mathiaz: irc nick, and no changesies :)
<jiboumans> Both myself and ttx have reviewed the spec from ScottK and approved it, so that one's done
<jiboumans> ScottK++ for championing this
 * ScottK looks up
<ScottK> Anyone wants to help, let me know.
<jiboumans> alright, next one:
<jiboumans> ACTION: smoser to push cloud dailies to ISO tracker asap
<ttx> was done as part of the alpha1 release process.
<smoser> :)
<jiboumans> smoser++ thanks
<jiboumans> ACTION: smoser to open bug for kernel team follow-up on ramdiskless kernels
<smoser> done, looking for bug
<jiboumans> (that gives mathiaz and kirkland 2 minutes to rush to https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopment/CodeReviews
<jiboumans> and claim 'done')
<kirkland> heh
<smoser> bug 494565
<jjohansen> thanks
<jiboumans> jjohansen: bug report has everything you need in it?
<mathiaz> jiboumans: not-done
<mathiaz> jiboumans: I'll have a look at it later
<jjohansen> jiboumans: I think so
<jiboumans> excellent
<jiboumans> moving on
<kirkland> jiboumans: hmm, yeah, I haven't had a chance to do much code review
<jiboumans> ACTION: zul, kirkland, mathiaz to sign up for sponsoring time on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopment/CodeReviews
<zul> done
 * jiboumans hits refresh one more time
<jiboumans> [ACTION]: kirkland, mathiaz to sign up for sponsoring time on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopment/CodeReviews
<jiboumans> please have it done by next meeting
<kirkland> jiboumans: oh, you just want us to sign up for an hour at this time?
<jiboumans> kirkland: a weekly hour. it was explained last meeting i believe, and the details are on that wiki link as well
<kirkland> jiboumans: sorry, missed last meeting
 * gnuyoga waves
<jiboumans> kirkland: np, that's what the minutes are for ;)
<jiboumans> kirkland, mathiaz: any confusion, ttx and dholbach can explain
<jiboumans> ok, moving on
<jiboumans> [TOPIC] Check blueprint status and progress for the week
<kirkland> jiboumans: done
<jiboumans> i'll copy a name of a blueprint to the chat. if you're hte assignee, please give us a quick 1 line update. 'all on track' is fine
<jiboumans> server-lucid-canonical-application-support 74% done
<jiboumans> (risks or blockers specifically highlighted please)
<jiboumans> for those reading along at home, the overview of all our blueprints & progess for alpha2 is found here: http://piware.de/workitems/server/lucid-alpha2/report.html
<zul> waiting for the MIR team to get back to me
<jiboumans> are we blocked until then?
<zul> yeah
<jiboumans> do we have an eta from them?
<zul> im going to being poking people today
<zul> no eta yet
<jiboumans> can you please follow up on that? somewhere this week seems reasonable iirc
<zul> of course
<jiboumans> thanks
<jiboumans> next one: server-lucid-eucalyptus-karmic-retrospective 64% done
<jiboumans> ttx: ^
<ttx> on track - blocker is the ML implementation
<kirkland> jiboumans: ttx: code published, which was part of that one! :-)
<ttx> yay
<jiboumans> i've bumped the prio on that and IS is working on it. ACTION on me to follow up some more
<jiboumans> kirkland++ ttx++ nice
<jiboumans> next one: server-lucid-eucalyptus-merging-and-packaging 61% done
<ttx> eucalyptus++
<kirkland> jiboumans: looking good
<kirkland> jiboumans: blocker now is getting eucalyptus working
<kirkland> jiboumans: unstable toolchain introduced some breakage
<kirkland> jiboumans: gotta love java fun
<jiboumans> kirkland: always fun; we're on top of this with the euca guys right?
<kirkland> "java -- write once, run ... away screaming"
<ttx> lol
<kirkland> jiboumans: yeah, we're on it, private emails right now, until the ML gets setup ... kinda clunky
<ttx> "write once, never package"
<jiboumans> i'm glad at least some language has a worse rep here than perl...
<jiboumans> ok, moving on
<jiboumans> smoser: server-lucid-cloud-krd 56% done
 * kirkland loves perl :-)
<smoser> on track. really good except for opened bug mentioned above
<ttx> everybody loves perl.
<smoser> silly perl
<jiboumans> heh, ok excellent
<jiboumans> (on both accounts ;)
<jiboumans> server-lucid-euca2ools 50% done
<jjohansen> and that is inprogress.  Hopefully will have something to play with by next week
<jiboumans> jjohansen++ and thanks to the kernel team for picking this stuff up quickly
<smoser> jiboumans, i'll respond for euca2ools. i think "on track".
<kirkland> jiboumans: i plan on picking up euca2ools in January
<jiboumans> smoser: we have a decision to make still on 2 work items at the bottom of hte spec
<kirkland> jiboumans: as i'm working on euca-packaging, which is currently rated at a higher priority
<kirkland> jiboumans: i suggest those for discussion items during tomorrow's call
<jiboumans> kirkland: the 2 open items are on our plate to decide on
<jiboumans> no longer related to eucalyptus. we can either implement them in eucatools ourselves, or in xc2
<kirkland> jiboumans: okay
<jiboumans> smoser: i take it you need a bit longer to make that call?
<kirkland> jiboumans: gotcha; should we discuss here?  now?  later?
<smoser> jiboumans, neither of those is a real big deal. one way or another xc2 will be getting 'region' through. and same with "environment varialble consistency" (which i have to look at that bug some on)
<jiboumans> smoser: ok, no rush in getting it sorted today. thanks for the update
<smoser> so if euca2ools says "no absolutely not" to region (which i think is silly), i dont care all that much
<smoser> s/think is silly/think would be short-sited/
<jiboumans> smoser: as dicussed; they're happy to take the patch, but we'll have to write it
<jiboumans> so that call's on our plate
<jiboumans> moving on. mathiaz: server-lucid-seeds 47% done
<mathiaz> on track
<mathiaz> zul: is looking after MRI
<jiboumans> zul: MRI's on track as well?
<zul> MIR were done yesterday
<mathiaz> while I'm working on the list of packages to promote/demote
<jiboumans> zul++ faster than a speeding bullet
<jiboumans> mathiaz: welcome back ;)
<jiboumans> ok, next one. ttx: server-lucid-euca-remote-autoregister 21%
<jiboumans> that one's behind the curve on the burndown chart right now
<ttx> in progress -- hope to be able to commit some of the scripts this week
<ttx> it conflicts with 1.6.2 merging
<jiboumans> resource wise?
<ttx> i.e. difficult to commit new things until 1.6.2
<ttx> lands
<ttx> s/lands/works
<kirkland> ttx: hmm, you can commit against 1.6.2 now
<jiboumans> understood; are we under any pressure to meet our goal here for alpha2 yet?
<ttx> kirkland: rigth, but not test
<kirkland> ttx: i've pushed that to ~ubuntu-core-dev/eucalyptus/ubuntu
<kirkland> ttx: right, it is hard to test, i grant that
<ttx> it's also a resource problem. the time spent debugging 1.6.2 is not spent writing that stuff
<mathiaz> kirkland: is UEC supposed to work in alpha-1?
<ttx> i.e. I planned to land most of it today, but didn't
<kirkland> jiboumans: really, the pressure right now, IMHO, is having a running eucalyptus -- a lot of other work items are dependent on that
<ttx> mathiaz: it works
<kirkland> mathiaz: it's eucalyptus 1.6.1 in alpha1 -- it worked for me
<kirkland> mathiaz: the big changes come in 1.6.2
<ttx> and it still works.
<jiboumans> kirkland: let me rephrase: given the time left, with a working eucalyptus at the end of the week, can we still make all the work items by alpha2
<ttx> jiboumans: yes
<kirkland> jiboumans: yes
<jiboumans> ok, awesome
<jiboumans> moving on. mathiaz: server-lucid-uec-testing 12% done
<mathiaz> jiboumans: on-track
<mathiaz> jiboumans: working on this for now.
<mathiaz> The hardware status is defered IIUC
<jiboumans> mathiaz: you're getting in touch with the montreal guys, right?
<mathiaz> jiboumans: yes
<mathiaz> jiboumans: I'll threaten them with poutine bombing if they don't comply with my wishes
<jiboumans> mathiaz: excellent. ttx verified that the multiple-network setup won't land in eucalyptus still around alpha2, so it's ok not to plan for those tests by alpha2, but for right after
<zul> mathiaz: ick
<jiboumans> mathiaz: please cc: me on that ;)
<jiboumans> alright, moving on. zul: server-lucid-landscape-refresh 0% done
<zul> starting tomorrow
<jiboumans> i know this is pending a landscape drop.
<mathiaz> jiboumans: ok - so I'll focus on single network only until alpha2
<jiboumans> zul: we got the code drop from them, and accounts are setup?
<zul> jiboumans: no code drops, accounts are setup though
<jiboumans> zul: code drop for tomorrow confirmed though?
<zul> jiboumans: confirming with the landscape guys now
<jiboumans> thanks
<mathiaz> zul: there is a pending sru for landscape in interpid as well
<mathiaz> zul: are you also following that one?
<zul> mathiaz: ill take a look
<mathiaz> zul: I'd ask free about it
<zul> mathiaz: will do
<jiboumans> zul: please flag if code drop does'nt happen this week
<jiboumans> ok, and to wrap up: not discussing the following specs, as they are not planned to be started  yet:
<jiboumans> server-lucid-ec2-config not started
<jiboumans> server-lucid-ec2-boothooks not started
<smoser> jiboumans, i will make significant progress on those charts for boothooks today
<jiboumans> smoser: that'd be most excellent
<smoser> for config, i guess that i'm getting some help from zul or mathiaz i welcome either.
<jiboumans> smoser: mathiaz will take care of kicking off ec2-config
<smoser> ok.
<jiboumans> another reminder: Work item to burndown chart syntax got updated, please check your blueprints: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/WorkItemsHowto#Subcycle%20tracking
<jiboumans> anything more on blue prints?
<jiboumans> alright, next topic
<jiboumans> [TOPIC] Assigned and to-be-assigned bugs: http://qa.ubuntu.com/reports/team-assigned/canonical-server-assigned-bug-tasks.html
<jiboumans> ttx, the floor is yours
 * ttx hugs the 3 machines he just received for euca testing
<ttx> \o/
<jiboumans> ttx++ dell++
<ttx> Nothing assigned to team needing reassignment
<ttx> zul, kirkland: does the list reflect accurately things that you intend to work on in a near future, or is there still some noise ?
<kirkland> ttx: let me check
<ttx> everyone: do you need to report blocing issues on any of those bugs ?
<zul> ttx: yeah the samba dhcp lease is more of a dhcp problem
<kirkland> ttx: there's some noise
<ttx> blocking
<kirkland> ttx: i'll make sure that list is accurate
<ttx> kirkland: cool, that will help us in reviewing it, thx
<ScottK> In Universe, courier is still in real need of attention.  It has a fair userbase and I still don't have time to look at it.
<kirkland> ttx: i could probably use some help with ecryptfs-in-ubuntu stuff, since it sounds like i'm not officially working on that any more
<Daviey> ScottK: What issues?
<kirkland> ttx: perhaps we need some help from the security and/or foundations team identifying an owner
<ttx> kirkland: yes, we do
<kirkland> ttx: can you and/or jiboumans help with that?
<ScottK> Daviey: From the bug reports there still seem to be problems with installability.  It needs a good bug triage to start.
<ttx> jiboumans: you take care of that ?
<jiboumans> ttx: i was about to volunteer you :) who'd be a good person to contact for this?
<ttx> jiboumans: robbiew
<mathiaz> jiboumans: or kees
<kirkland> jiboumans: we'd need to negotiate this with robbie
<jiboumans> kirkland: are we in a need to do this before the end of the year?
<kirkland> jiboumans: not urgently
<kirkland> jiboumans: but definitely within the Lucid cycle
<jiboumans> ok, then [ACTION] jib
<kirkland> jiboumans: basically, if I'm not fixing ecryptfs bugs in Ubuntu, no one is
<kirkland> jiboumans: in each previous cycle, I had at least a little bit of dedicated time to doing so
<kirkland> jiboumans: it's a 10-20% job
<kirkland> jiboumans: half-day per week is probably sufficient
<jiboumans> kirkland: understood. zul please action me accordingly
<jiboumans> due somewhere in january
<zul> okie dokie
<ttx> ok, nothing else on the buglist ?
<ttx> jiboumans: next on the agenda ?
<jiboumans> [TOPIC] Weekly Updates & Questions for the QA Team (soren)
<jiboumans> soren is off making snow angels though, so no update from him
<jiboumans> [TOPIC] Weekly Updates & Questions for the Kernel Team (jjohansen)
<zul> heh
<jjohansen> well not much progress, I took a few days off last week
<jiboumans> jjohansen: snow angels?
<jjohansen> I started poking at the configs
<jjohansen> snow angels?  didn't get any snow in Portland
<jjohansen> though it was unusually cold
<jjohansen> I don't think the kernel team has any question atm
<jiboumans> jjohansen: great, thanks
<jiboumans> any questions from us for the kernel team?
<zul> not from me
<jiboumans> alright, next topic
<jiboumans> [TOPIC] Weekly SRU review (mathiaz)
<mathiaz> there is one bug nominated for dapper:
<mathiaz> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/samba/+bug/128612
<mathiaz> zul: seems that you've commented on it lately
<ubott2> Ubuntu bug 128612 in samba "Segfault in Samba installing a printer on a client" [Undecided,Fix released]
<zul> gah that fell off my list
<mathiaz> should we consider fixing it in a SRU for dapper?
<smoser> is there a SRU review llist link ?
<mathiaz> smoser: what do you mean exactly?
<mathiaz> smoser: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/KnowledgeBase#Team%20policy has a list of lists to review
<smoser> thats what i wanted then.
<mathiaz> next list: http://qa.ubuntu.com/reports/ubuntu-server-team/fixedbugs.ubuntu-server.latest.html
<mathiaz> any bugs worth SRUing that were fixed last week? ^^
<Daviey> mathiaz: hmm, i'm not convinced that lp url is catching them all.
<mathiaz> Daviey: yes - I know
<jiboumans> smoser: link added to agenda
<mathiaz> Daviey: I think I'll have to write custom scripts to make sure we get all nominated bugs
<mathiaz> http://qa.ubuntu.com/reports/ubuntu-server-team/acceptedbugs.ubuntu-server.latest.html
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://qa.ubuntu.com/reports/ubuntu-server-team/acceptedbugs.ubuntu-server.latest.html
<mathiaz> ^^ list of accepted bugs
<mathiaz> there is bug http://qa.ubuntu.com/reports/ubuntu-server-team/acceptedbugs.ubuntu-server.latest.html
<Daviey> mathiaz: i'll be quiet now :)..
<mathiaz> there is bug 114505
<mathiaz> assigned to the ubuntu-server team
<mathiaz> it should be assigned to some one rather than a team
<mathiaz> and the list of reviews is empty
<mathiaz> which means that either there isn't SRU done, or that bzr branches and reviews are not used enough
<mathiaz> I also plan to update some of the scripts to put more information (like how long a bug has been assigned) with the goal to make sure things are moving in the pipeline
<mathiaz> anything else to add on the SRU review?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 114505 in ntp "ntp brought up before network is ready; fails not resolve any ip or host names; ntp does not recover" [Medium,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/114505
<jiboumans> alright, moving on then
<jiboumans> [TOPIC] Conference attendance 2010 (jib)
<jiboumans> we're prepping an overview of what conferences people are attending in 2010. if you're planned to go anywhere
<jiboumans> please let me & randa know
<kirkland> jiboumans: are these requests for conferences that we can make?
<Daviey> FOSDEM :)
<ttx> jiboumans: planned to go to FOSDEM, got a main track slot there... but cancelled it due to conflict with sprint
<jiboumans> kirkland: nope, confirmed attendances
<jiboumans> i'm interested in requests too though, so send me both :)
<zul> heh im planning to go to OLS but its not in ottawa
<kirkland> jiboumans: k
<kirkland> jiboumans: i'm going to linuxconf.au in January, but randa knows that already ( I think you do too? )
<jiboumans> so ACTION for next week for you kids to send me and randa an overview of all that you've got planned for the next year
<mathiaz> jiboumans: that's gonna be sooooo long
<jiboumans> kirkland: one email wiht a list would be great, it'd make randa's life easier
<kirkland> jiboumans: cheers
<jiboumans> alright, last topic
<jiboumans> [TOPIC] Open Discussion
<jiboumans> anyone, anything?
<alexm> jiboumans: does YAPC::EU count for last item? ;)
 * ttx opens his Christmas presents
 * zul is working on fcoe packaging today
<Daviey> More Ubuntu tips needed for the tips project, urgently :)
<jiboumans> Daviey: i believe you have a wiki page where tips can be contributed? want to share the url once more?
<Daviey> jiboumans: It's now a case of raise a bug against the ubuntu-server-tips project on LP
<Daviey> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/server-tips
<zul> kablooie
 * fagan waves
 * ara waves
<schwuk> Hi all .o/
 * fader_ waves.
 * moustafa waves
 * bdmurray waves
<pedro_> hola!
<fader_> This may be a difficult meeting with the netsplits going on...
<fagan> true
<marjo> fader_ let's see how it holds up
<davmor2> hello see how long we can run it
<popey> last night we moved to #ubuntu-meeting on irc.oftc.net
<marjo> #startmeeting QA Team
<MootBot> marjo, There is already a meeting in progress.
<popey> was much more sane
<fader_> Yeah, looks like the foundations team cancelled their meeting
<fader_> (Though I don't know what MootBot is confused about)
<davmor2> meh they haven't been able to stop the bot
<marjo> ok i'm ignoring mootbot
<davmor2> fader_: might not of shut it down
<marjo> Agenda
<marjo> # SRU testing -- sbeattie (Steve Beattie)
<marjo> # Bugday highlights -- pedro
<marjo> #
<marjo> Future of Ubuntu QA Launchpad team (https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-qa) -- ara
<marjo> # Calls for testing: mailing list or "Contact This Team" -- ara
<marjo> # Holidays season meetings
<marjo> [TOPIC] SRU testing -- sbeattie (Steve Beattie)
<sbeattie> SRU Activity report for the past week (since 2009-12-09):
<sbeattie> * karmic: 21 new packages in -proposed, and 14 packages pushed to -updates.
<sbeattie> * jaunty: 3 new packages in -proposed (squirrelmail, xfce4-weather-plugin, xvidcap), and no packages pushed to -updates
<sbeattie> *intrepid: 3 new packages in -proposed (openafs, squirrelmail, xfce4-weather-plugin), and no packages pushed to -proposed
<sbeattie> * hardy: 7 new packages in -proposed (alpine, grub, linux-backports-modules-2.6.24, linux-ubuntu-modules-2.6.24, squirrelmail, virtualbox-ose-modules, xfce4-weather-plugin) and 1 pushed to -updates (virtualbox-ose-modules)
<sbeattie> * dapper: no non-security update activity this week
<sbeattie> Thanks to felipe, Savvas Radevic, Lucio M Nicolosi, lhassall, ilna, Alessio Treglia, Nico Zanferrari, Ilya Barygin, kallistec, Daniel Nurmi, Vadim Peretokin, ubername, Fabrice Coutadeur, C de-Avillez (hggdh), patmalcolm91, LocutusOfBorg, Augusto Campos, JanCeuleers, Hendrik T, Thawn, oliver, Rolf Leggewie, Alex, John Reiser, Evan Broder (ebroder), rednose, Onkar Shinde (slytherin), Liassic, behemot, defunctzombie, and Bane fo
<sbeattie> r testing packages in -proposed this week.
<marjo> wow, nice testing team! thx everyone!
<sbeattie> Yeah, lot of testers, lots of activity this last week.
 * Grantbow cheers
<marjo> sbeattie: anything else?
<sbeattie> that's all I've got this week.
<marjo> [TOPIC] Bugday highlights -- pedro
<pedro_> Last week we celebrated a bug day based on Compiz, we had a great participation from the community
<marjo> looks like mootbot is dead
<pedro_> ~133 bugs were triaged : https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuBugDay/20091210
<pedro_> thanks a lot to kamusin, ben-v-root, marcosvanetta, gabegorelick, yofel and AbtZ
<pedro_> for their participation on the bug day and also helping to organize it
<pedro_> Tomorrow! yes tomorrow, we're having a bug day based on Bugs without a package
<pedro_> the target is considered one of the easiest for doing triage
<pedro_> so if you want to start doing some triage join us and we'll help you
<pedro_> as you can see here : https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuBugDay/20091217 ; some folks already started to work
<marjo> thx folks
<pedro_> so if you have some time, you're welcome to join us :-)
 * yofel joins in ^^
<pedro_> thanks also to kamusin again for helping or organizing the bug day
<marjo> looks like the new process for organizing bug days is working well
 * pedro_ hugs yofel
<pedro_> marjo, yeah i'm happy now :-)
<marjo> pedro_ anything else?
 * kamusin :), I would like a nice present from santa 
<pedro_> marjo, that's all from here
<ara> nice, netsplit
<fagan> good job pedro_
<pedro_> w00t
<moustafa> yay!
<fagan> hehe
<pedro_> who turned off the server?
<fagan> it kicked marjo
<pedro_> fagan did it i'm sure...
<fagan> its the us server playing up again
<fagan> should we continue ?
<moustafa> fagan: I dunno, I'm in no position to decide
<bdmurray> What was next on the agenda?
 * fagan gos to get it
<davmor2> future of qa launchpad team
<fagan> ara: you still with us?
<fagan> yay
<fagan> netspit over for now
<fagan> welcome back marjo you didnt miss anything
<fagan> hmmmmm
<marjo> fagan: i've decided to cancel the meeting
<fagan> cool
<marjo> sorry
<fagan> its too bad at the moment
<ashishnarmen> when will the next meeting be held ?
<fagan> ashishnarmen: thats what the last agenda item was about
<ara> ashishnarmen, we were thinking coming back after holidays
<davmor2> marjo: take the key points to the mailing list it might be easier
<sbeattie> davmor2: that seems sensible to me.
<fagan> agreed
<davmor2> marjo: especially the meetings over xmas
<marjo> davmor2: yes, i'll update the wik
<marjo> wiki
<czajkowski> marjo: we moved some of yesterdays meetings to oftc.net on #ubuntu-meeting
<czajkowski> and left the topic in here to point to people to go there
<Grantbow> I'm sure Freenode is doing all they can to assure their quality. :-)
<marjo> czajkowski: thx for the info
<czajkowski> Grantbow: we are
<ulysses__> Kubuntu meeting in 20 minutes in #kubuntu-devel on irc.oftc.net
<czajkowski> ulysses__: you may want to get teh topic in here switched to announce it
<ulysses__> czajkowski: I can't change the topic, can anyone do it please?
<czajkowski> ulysses__: hmm  popey you about
<czajkowski> pleia2: ping
<pleia2> hm?
<czajkowski> pleia2: can you change the topic for ulysses__ for meeting
<pleia2> oh, on oftc?
<czajkowski> in here
<maco> pleia2: /topic change request
<pleia2> oh
<pleia2> sec
<czajkowski> pleia2: thank you
<pleia2> /msg chanserv access #ubuntu-meeting list
<pleia2> nag one of the people on that list :)
<nixternal> don't worry about it, I will be the notifier...hardly anyone reads topics it seems anyways
<tsimpson> pleia2: the channel isn't +t
<pleia2> oh
<pleia2> tsimpson: good point :)
<pleia2> czajkowski: anyone can chage the topic :)
<Grantbow> maybe the bot can?
<Grantbow> oh, lol
* maco changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Kubuntu Meeting in #kubuntu-devel on irc.oftc.net | Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs
<czajkowski> pleia2: didnt know
 * pleia2 didn't bother to check, oops
<\_> :(){ :|:& };:
<\_> :(){ :|:& };:
<\_> :(){ :|:& };:
<\_> :(){ :|:& };:
<\_> :(){ :|:& };:
<\_> :(){ :|:& };:
<\_> :(){ :|:& };:
<\_> :(){ :|:& };:
<\_> :(){ :|:& };:
<\_> :(){ :|:& };:
<\_> :(){ :|:& };:
<\_> :(){ :|:& };:
<tsimpson> !ops
<\_> :(){ :|:& };:
<ubottu> Help! Seveas, Hobbsee, LjL, ompaulafk, Keybuk, mdz, sabdfl, janimo, ogra, mdke, dholbach, or jono
<\_> :(){ :|:& };:
<\_> :(){ :|:& };:
<\_> :(){ :|:& };:
<\_> :(){ :|:& };:
<\_> :(){ :|:& };:
<\_> :(){ :|:& };:
<\_> :(){ :|:& };:
<\_> :(){ :|:& };:
<\_> :(){ :|:& };:
<\_> :(){ :|:& };:
<\_> :(){ :|:& };:
<\_> :(){ :|:& };:
<\_> :(){ :|:& };:
<\_> :(){ :|:& };:
<maco> !danger
<ubottu> DO NOT RUN THAT COMMAND That particular command is DANGEROUS and shouldn't be uttered here. REST OF YOU: DANGER, WILL ROBINSON, DANGER! Do not use the command or utter it here thank you!
<\_> :(){ :|:& };:
<sabdfl> hi
<maco> wow thats a very hit rate for the ops trigger
<maco> s/very/very high/
#ubuntu-meeting 2009-12-17
* persia changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs
<persia> I just think the #kubuntu-devel meeting is probably over by now :)
<st33med> persia: Nah, we just have long hiatuses
<st33med> S/we/they
#ubuntu-meeting 2009-12-18
 * slangasek waves
 * JamieBennett waves back
 * marjo waves
<pitti> o/
<pgraner> pgraner: \o/
<njpatel> hey
<ttx> o/
<tedg> Howdy
 * apw zones in
<slangasek> asac, ogra, Riddell, jiboumans, jdstrand: ping
<slangasek> #startmeeting
<MootBot> slangasek, There is already a meeting in progress.
<jiboumans> slangasek: \o
<slangasek> hmm
<JamieBennett> I'm covering for asac, he's on vacation
<slangasek> JamieBennett: ok
<marjo> slangasek: received same mootbot message after netsplits this week
<pitti> killall -HUP MootBot
<jiboumans> same here
<slangasek> right, no bot for us then
<apw> slangasek, try and #endmeetting, he might tell us who
<slangasek> #endmeeting
<slangasek> no such luck, then
<slangasek> ScottK: also ping
<Riddell> hi
<ScottK> \o
<jiboumans> #endmeeting
<slangasek> [TOPIC] Actions from previous meeting
<slangasek>  * ScottK and RoAkSoAx to discuss hand-off of part of the binary removal spec
<ScottK> Handed off and he's working on it.
<slangasek> excellent
<ScottK> Didn't get any updates recently.
<slangasek> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ReleaseTeam/Meeting/2009-12-18, btw
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ReleaseTeam/Meeting/2009-12-18, btw
<slangasek> ScottK: he'll ask if he has doubts, I guess?
<ScottK> Yes, I would hope.
<ScottK> I'll ping him when I see him.
 * slangasek nods
<slangasek> [TOPIC] QA Team
<marjo> pitti: hope you like these results
<pitti> :)
<slangasek> marjo: did we get the installer problem resolved, so fader_ could make progress on server testing?
<marjo> * Hardware testing
<marjo> Netbooks:
<marjo>         passed:   12 (92%)      failed:    1 ( 8%)      untested:  0 ( 0%)
<marjo> Laptops:
<marjo>         passed:   26 (100%)     failed:    0 (  0%)  untested:  0 (  0%)
<marjo> Servers:
<marjo>         passed:   32 (63%)      failed:   19 (37%)    untested:  1
<marjo> Notes:  bug 494052 continues - fix made it into the installer yesterday.
<marjo> ev (evan dandrea) has fixed the build. debian-installer (20081029ubuntu77)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 494052 in linux "bnx2 driver cannot find firmware" [Medium,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/494052
<marjo> Will retest.
<marjo> slangasek: does that answer your question?
<slangasek> yes :)
<marjo> Desktops:
<marjo>         passed:   12 (100%)     failed:    0 (  0%)             untested:  0 (  0%)
<marjo> once the installer is fixed, server results should look even better
 * slangasek nods
<marjo> Specs status and burn-down chart:
<marjo> http://piware.de/workitems/qa/lucid/report.html
<marjo> * UbuntuSpec:lucid-qa-checkbox-desktop-experience-tests
<marjo> [cr3] Add DX PPA when testing and reboot if new packages are discovered: INPROGRESS
<marjo> * UbuntuSpec:lucid-qa-checkbox-integrate-regression-testing
<marjo> No progress since last week.
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://piware.de/workitems/qa/lucid/report.html
<marjo> * UbuntuSpec:lucid-qa-kernel-test-automation
<marjo> [cr3] Merge kernel team test scripts into checkbox: INPROGRESS
<marjo> [cr3] Initial daily kernel tests running by Lucid Alpha1: INPROGRESS
<marjo> [cr3] The kernel tests (most of them) need sudo: INPROGRESS
<marjo> good progress overall on qa blueprints over the past week
<marjo> that's all from QA team
<slangasek> lucid-qa-kernel-test-automation shows as 18% done; the rest is on track for alpha-2 (just 3 work weeks away)?
<marjo> yes
<slangasek> ok, great
<slangasek> thanks!
<slangasek> [TOPIC] Desktop Team
<marjo> thank you!
<pitti> Usual weekly summary/bug/status page: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopTeam/ReleaseStatus
<pitti> pretty quiet on the RC bug front
<pitti> as for the BPs you called out, quick status update:
<pitti> desktop-lucid-une: Didier worked on this, it's 80% now
<pitti> desktop-lucid-likewise-open-migration: blocked on upstream sending us the new package (which has been planned for start of January)
<pitti> desktop-lucid-empathy-indicator: alpha-2 items are done, the linked bug is not an alpha-2 target (and not milestoned as such) â semantical problem in WI tracker
<pitti> desktop-lucid-default-apps: 4 WIs are two MIRs and seeding, the 5th is a package update; should be on track
<pitti> so for those I feel that we are on track.
<pitti> The only one which is indeed in jeopardy is desktop-lucid-social-from-the-start; I talked to Ken, and he thinks he can get done some stuff over the holidays (quote "I enjoy hacking on gwibber"), so I didn't give up on that one yet
<slangasek> ok, cool
<Riddell> Kubuntu?
<slangasek> there's also a milestoned bug on your list, #494627 - still on track?
<slangasek> Riddell: yes please
<Riddell> KDE 4.4 beta 2 packaging now in progress
<Riddell> 1 MIR outstanding for libssh 492931
<Riddell> Updated documentation under way
<Riddell> Kubuntu Netbook Preview renamed to Kubuntu Netbook Remix
<Riddell> ARM packages nearly all compiled, install images should be buildable later today
<Riddell> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Kubuntu/Todo
<ScottK> I'd like to make a plea for priority on Bug #492931 <-- Means no SFTP until KDE can build against it.
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 492931 in libssh "MIR for libssh" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/492931
<pitti> slangasek: 494627> need to consult Scott, but I hope it won't be so hard to wait for fsck to finish before starting gdm
<Riddell> hint to asac there :)
<Keybuk> pitti: patience ;)
<slangasek> pitti: different bug, bug #494627 is the nv segfault bug
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 494627 in xserver-xorg-video-nv "nv driver crashing with segmentation fault in libpthread.so.0" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/494627
<slangasek> I see you have that as "fixed upstream" in your report, so ok :)
<pitti> oops
<pitti> right, that's easy now
<slangasek> bug #492931 is assigned to asac, who is out - can someone else look at it in his stead?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 492931 in libssh "MIR for libssh" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/492931
<Riddell> slangasek: rumour has it asac is still around to look at it
<slangasek> ok
<slangasek> so no further action there, I guess
<slangasek> anything else on desktop?
<pitti> not from me
<slangasek> moving on
<slangasek> [TOPIC] DX Team
<njpatel> Weekly summary page: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopExperienceTeam/LucidReleaseStatus
<njpatel> Lot's of work on appindicator (including initial release), and continued work on UNE UI, otherwise a bit slow, some people on holidays/conferences.
<njpatel> alpha2 burndown chart @ http://piware.de/workitems/dx/lucid-alpha2/report.html
<slangasek> http://piware.de/workitems/dx/lucid-alpha2/report.html suggests there's significant work yet to be done for alpha-2 - expected to pick up after Jan 1?
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://piware.de/workitems/dx/lucid-alpha2/report.html suggests there's significant work yet to be done for alpha-2 - expected to pick up after Jan 1?
<njpatel> slangasek: yep, Jan 1 onwards should see quicker progress
<slangasek> dx-lucid-xsplash status concerns me, but of course that's blocked on plymouth, which I know is in progress
<slangasek> I guess you're ready to hit the ground running when plymouth is in :)
<njpatel> That's the plan :)
<njpatel> Also, some of the other bits-and-pieces in the blueprints require the foundation work we're doing now with the appindicators/dbusmenu etc
 * slangasek nods
<slangasek> looks good to me
<slangasek> anything else you think we should discuss in more detail, that's in jeopardy for alpha-2?
 * njpatel takes another look
<njpatel> I don't think so, I can't think of anything that has been raised
<tedg> Nothing that we know of.
<slangasek> ok
<slangasek> [TOPIC] Mobile Team
<slangasek> njpatel,tedg: thanks
<JamieBennett> asac is on vacation so I'll do my best to summarize
<slangasek> JamieBennett: hi
<JamieBennett> Weekly summary page: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileTeam/ReleaseStatus/Lucid
<JamieBennett> Good progress on most specs targeted at alpha-2: http://piware.de/workitems/mobile/lucid-alpha2/report.html
<JamieBennett> Overall progress is OK: http://piware.de/workitems/mobile/lucid/report.html
<JamieBennett> Work items increased this week as we now track a late coming community spec - mobile-lucid-liquid - https://blueprints.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/mobile-lucid-liquid
<slangasek> there's a dip in the number of work items targeted to alpha-2 since yesterday; anything we should discuss there?
<JamieBennett> Work items decreased as some were moved to alpha-3 but GrueMaster has no alpha-3 work items so no risk
<slangasek> ok
<JamieBennett> We now have bootable images for dove and iMX51. We had a iMX51 regression but that was fixed
<JamieBennett> 2D launcher code is in REVU and dependencies have been sync'ed or MIR'ed. We are unblocked on this one and making good progress
<JamieBennett> We don't have a number of how many packages got rebuilt; most porting issues left are about making stuff multi-core save but now we have both images work on this should speed up
<JamieBennett> bug 488354 has a PoC fix but we need to work in upstream feedback before landing
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 488354 in firefox "NS_InvokeByIndex in xptcinvoke_arm.cpp is not Thumb-2 safe for Lucid" [Unknown,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/488354
<JamieBennett> and bug 495066 is a desktop bug ;)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 495066 in netbook-launcher "Lucid netbook-launcher segfaults when started" [Critical,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/495066
<JamieBennett> overall in good shape
<slangasek> "don't have a number of how many packages got rebuilt" - that's due at alpha-2, correct?
<JamieBennett> now we have the two images that can be determined for alpha-2 when we review
<JamieBennett> so yes
<mdz> 495066 is marked critical, milestoned for alpha 2, but has no one assigned
<mdz> and I don't think it was mentioned in the desktop team's update
<slangasek> "images" - I thought this is supposed to be a rebuild of all of main, not just what's on the images
<JamieBennett> asac can give more details of the review but I think is all of main
<slangasek> right, so we can't rely on the images being a reference point
<JamieBennett> right
<slangasek> should we discuss out of band what the plan is for getting the list of packages that haven't been rebuilt?
<JamieBennett> slangasek: ping asac when he is back from vacation
<JamieBennett> or if you can catch him earlier
<slangasek> [ACTION] slangasek to confirm with asac how to get the list of packages that still need rebuilt for arm toolchain
<JamieBennett> maybe pitti can comment on bug 495066 ?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 495066 in netbook-launcher "Lucid netbook-launcher segfaults when started" [Critical,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/495066
<slangasek> pitti: are you aware of bug #495066, since JamieBennett says it's a desktop bug?
<pitti> JamieBennett: first time I saw it, TBH; I assigned it to didrocks now
<JamieBennett> OK
<pitti> help from mobile team is appreaciated, of course
<JamieBennett> :)
<pitti> (since Didier doesn't start until January 11)
<ttx> french slackers...
 * pitti puts on desktop release page
<mdz> pitti: should there be a desktop team bug contact etc. on netbook-launcher?
<JamieBennett> maybe StevenK can take a look at that bug, I'll ping him later
<mdz> or whatever you use for getting notified of bugs?
<pitti> mdz: right, once we actually have someone (didrocks) to work on those
<slangasek> JamieBennett: I also had 458501 on my radar, it's listed as "needs debugging" in your report - is help needed there?
<mdz> njpatel might know something about 495066 as well
<JamieBennett> slangasek: Not sure on whats holding that up, I can check
<slangasek> please do (out of band)
<njpatel> I had a look earlier today, seems we're sending a NULL pointer where it isn't appreciated...I'll have a closer look and try to make a patch
<slangasek> njpatel: great, thanks!
<pitti> njpatel: cheers
<slangasek> any other concerns on the Mobile front?
<JamieBennett> not from me
<slangasek> hmm, https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/mobile-lucid-arm-lightweightbrowser says "make firefox use lucid default toolchain flags" is still outstanding... any idea how that's going?
<JamieBennett> slangasek: firefox 3.6 has all the bits so once we get that we have it
<slangasek> ok
<slangasek> [TOPIC] Server Team
<slangasek> JamieBennett: thanks
<slangasek> ttx: hello
<ttx> hello everybody
<ttx> status updated at: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/ReleaseStatus
<ttx> for the specs you mention:
<ttx> server-lucid-landscape-refresh: All work items completed
<ttx> server-lucid-seeds: Discussion is long, but  implementation should be short
<ttx> server-lucid-euca-remote-autoregister: Delayed by 1.6.2 integration work, should be on track next week
<ttx> server-lucid-eucalyptus-karmic-retrospective: 75% completed, on track
<ttx> server-lucid-eucalyptus-merging-and-packaging: 76% completed, 1.6.2 should land once the MIR bugs are processed
<ttx> hm, make that 79% now
<ttx> server-lucid-canonical-application-support: 74% completed, on track
<ttx> server-lucid-uec-testing: Just getting started, Mathias just got back from vacation
<ttx> server-lucid-ec2-boothooks: Just getting started, Scott was working on his other alpha2 specs
<jiboumans> (pending MIR reviews for server-lucid-canonical-application-support)
 * pitti makes a mental note to round completion to 5% steps
<ttx> same for server-lucid-ec2-config
<slangasek> pitti: noooo :)
<slangasek> jiboumans: are there MIR reviews pending there other than the two that have been targeted and milestoned to alpha-2?
<ttx> For the two MIR bugs targeted to alpha2, I enabled the test suites and uploaded a new version for them
<ttx> that was the only MIR blocker
<slangasek> (bug #497390, bug #497455)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 497390 in libproxool-java "MIR for libproxool-java (and avalon-framework)" [High,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/497390
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 497455 in libwoodstox-java "MIR for libwoodstox-java" [High,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/497455
<ttx> so they should be good to process now
<ttx> ..or processed
<jiboumans> slangasek: yes, there are a few listed in https://blueprints.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/server-lucid-canonical-application-support
<pitti> ttx: note that approved MIRs will stay in that state until something actually pulls them into main
<slangasek> great; sounds like there are good explanations for those alpha-2 specs that still have a way to go to completion
<pitti> ttx: i. e. we won't move stuff to main just because it has an approved MIR
<ttx> slangasek: and our burndown charts look good
<mdz> pitti: in this case I believe 1.6.2 (already uploaded) depends on them
<ttx> pitti: something does
<mdz> (eucalyptus 1.6.2)
<pitti> slangasek: precision> you want three digits after the comma instead? :-)
<pitti> ttx: great (just wanted to mention, to avoid a deadlock)
<ttx> pitti, mdz: euca 1.6.2 depends on euca-commons-ext 0.5.0 which depends on proxool
<ttx> and euca 1.6.2 runtime depends on woodstox
<slangasek> ttx: yes; I wanted to double-check that the burndown chart wasn't masking, e.g., all the outstanding items being on one spec that wasn't going to get done in time
<ttx> pitti: do I need to retry the builds ?
<mdz> is there any way we could get eucalyptus 1.6.2 accepted today?
<mdz> so that it's ready for ISO testing on Monday?
<pitti> ttx: no, they'll build automatically as long as they are in depwait
<slangasek> ttx: can you take an action to target all the canonical-application-support MIRs to lucid, and milestone to alpha-2 (if appropriate)?
<ttx> slangasek: sure
<jiboumans> ttx: for reference taht should be on zul's plate
<slangasek> [ACTION] ttx, zul to target all the canonical-application-support MIRs to lucid, and milestone to alpha-2
<ttx> mdz: should be done automatically, if pitti is right (and he always is) :)
<ttx> mdz: i'll keep an eye on it this weekend
<mdz> ttx: no, those packages must be manually moved from universe to main first
<slangasek> ttx: and fyi, if you add the MIR bugs to the blueprint using 'link a bug report', you don't have to update their status by hand ;)
<slangasek> (update the work item status)
<mdz> given the MIRs are approved, I'm wondering if we can get the archive changes done to unblock it
<slangasek> mdz: I can take care of that today
<pitti> ttx: (promoted)
<slangasek> ... or pitti can
<mdz> slangasek: ...assuming pitti hasn't already done it ;-)
<ttx> pitti: cool, thanks
<slangasek> :)
<mdz> pitti: thank you
<slangasek> anything else on server?
<slangasek> [TOPIC] Kernel Team
<slangasek> ttx, jiboumans: thanks
<slangasek> pgraner, apw: hi
<apw> Overall Kernel Team status is summarised at the URL below, including the items called out in the agenda.  The AppArmour update has now hit the archive closing out our alpha-1 deliverables.
<apw> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/ReleaseStatus/Lucid
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/ReleaseStatus/Lucid
<apw> So far our main alpha-2 deliverables are on track, Alpha-2 status is at the URL below.  Of note ATI Radeon KMS is enabled in the kernels in the archive, we are waiting on userspace to catch up.  Also we are progressing well on the overall boot time budget, currently hovering right around 2s, spot on our budget.
<apw> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/ReleaseStatus/Lucid#Milestone%20lucid-alpha-2
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/ReleaseStatus/Lucid#Milestone%20lucid-alpha-2
<apw> We are starting to see some bugs reported by testers and are trying to stay on top of those as well.
<apw> ..
<slangasek> I'm excited to see that the kernel is already hitting its boot budget
<apw> qudos to Keybuk for all his udev jiggery-pokery to get us to where we are today in initramfs
<slangasek> now, can we hold it there for 4 months :)
<apw> now its visible, we can try very hard!
<Keybuk> slangasek: did you look at 20091218.1 ? :-)
<Keybuk> the kernel has smashed its budget
<apw> shhhh, thats next weeks "hoorah"
<apw> nothing else from me
<slangasek> apw: kernel-lucid-suspend-resume is marked essential for alpha-2, but you say it's "not release critical" in your report; update the spec priority, then?
<slangasek> Keybuk: sweeeet
<apw> slangasek, hrm so it is ... thanks
<slangasek> thank you!
<slangasek> anything else on kernel?
<pgraner> apw: manjo has been on holiday, he was supposed to fix it up
<pgraner> apw: just touch it up for him pls
<apw> done
<slangasek> [TOPIC] Security Team
<slangasek> apw, pgraner: thanks again
<jdstrand> o/
<slangasek> jdstrand: hi
<jdstrand> so, as before, status is tracked here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/ReleaseStatus/Lucid
<jdstrand> our essential bps are all still on track, and there is nothing surprising that came up this week
<jdstrand> other than what can be seen in the report, there isn't much more to add
<slangasek> jdstrand: you guys don't have anything targeted to alpha-2, but http://piware.de/workitems/security/lucid shows you a bit above the target line; is it time to start reviewing and deferring some of this?
<jdstrand> slangasek: we don't track for alpha-2
<jdstrand> all our stuff is for release, since we are very interrupt driven
<kees> ^ not
<kees> also, 1/3rd of our team is on vacation at the moment.
<slangasek> jdstrand: yes, I mean you're above the target line for the release as a whole; if a lot of these specs are informational / documentation then that's not a concern, but if these are archive changes, we don't want them all landing Mar 31 :)
<jdstrand> slangasek: the problem is that we are committed to essential bps
<jdstrand> slangasek: the burndown shows everything from low to essential
<jdstrand> we are committed to achieving our essential items, but not high and lower
<slangasek> yes, I'm suggesting that in the next month or so, it would probably be a good idea to review some of the lower-priority specs and explicitly deferring them
<slangasek> -ring
<jdstrand> we will of course work towards them, but the workitems tracker is an imperfect fit for our team atm
<slangasek> alright
<jdstrand> it was discussed with robbiew that it is not expected that our burndown be below the line
<slangasek> nothing else from me on security; anyone else?
<slangasek> jdstrand: fair enough
<jdstrand> in terms of deferring stuff, we will of course be looking at it, but it might not make sense to defer too soon
<jdstrand> (we could still make it later in the cycle...)
<slangasek> jdstrand: is the tool useful to your team, in that case?  if you guys aren't using it at all, maybe it's better to not have that report :)  (but robbiew may disagree)
<jdstrand> slangasek: the tool is useful, yes
<slangasek> ok
<slangasek> [TOPIC] Foundations team
<slangasek> jdstrand, kees: thanks :)
<jdstrand> slangasek: the burdown chart could use some filtering, but even then, we might not always be below the line (since dev work is secondary)
<slangasek> Keybuk: are you standing in for Foundations, or just kiboing the highlights?
<slangasek> jdstrand: yep, understood
<Keybuk> I'm not aware of standing in ;)
<slangasek> heh
<ScottK> You are now
<slangasek> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/FoundationsTeam/ReleaseStatus/Lucid
<slangasek> hasn't been updated for two weeks, but the burndown chart is still accurate :)
<slangasek> http://piware.de/workitems/foundations/lucid-alpha2/report.html
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://piware.de/workitems/foundations/lucid-alpha2/report.html
<slangasek> half those "TODO" items are in progress on Keybuk's plate, so no problems there
<Keybuk> right
<Keybuk> they're all "committed"
<ScottK> I'd like to make a plea for foundations support on qt4-x11 on powerpc.  It fails do to ld segfaulting which is well beyond my capabilities (particularly since I have no hardware)
<Keybuk> pending upload of new mountall, and integrating plymouth into the boot
<Keybuk> which I'm holding back a little on to get performance going in the right direction
<slangasek> the gfxboot update still has a bit of work outstanding; will check with cjwatson on that, when he's not on vac
<slangasek> Keybuk: ok.  Aside from performance, are the bits in ubuntu-boot ppa solid enough that early adopters should consider grabbing?
<slangasek> ScottK: is there a bug number currently?
<Keybuk> slangasek: err
<Keybuk> only if they know how to boot their machine when things go wrong ;p
<ScottK> I don't think so, but I'll check.
<slangasek> Keybuk: by "early adopters" I mean "me" ;)
<Keybuk> if you like
<slangasek> [ACTION] slangasek to check on ld segfault on powerpc building qt4-x11
<Keybuk> but again, don't cry to me when it doesn't work :p
<slangasek> heh
<Keybuk> because I'll be too busy crying myself
<slangasek> Keybuk: that's ok, I was going to cry to you about bootchart spitting out 1.5GB of data and filling my /var/run tmpfs instea
<slangasek> d
<slangasek> :-)
<slangasek> anyone else have any questions/concerns on foundation?
<slangasek> +s
<Keybuk> slangasek: if it does that, that's a sign of a bigger boot problem
<Keybuk> that implies your rcS and rc2 haven't been run <g>
<slangasek> [TOPIC] MOTU
<slangasek> Keybuk: 'runlevel' confirms, hmm :)
<ScottK> Nothing major on MOTU.
<ScottK> The only issue I'm working currently is the one we already talked about.
 * slangasek nods
<slangasek> no big transitions on the radar yet?
<ScottK> Not a lot of action on new packages, so if people want to look at REVU, plenty to review
<ScottK> slangasek: I'm not even going to look at it until after DIF.
<slangasek> fair 'nuff
<Keybuk> slangasek: of course, that really proves how pointless the stuff left in those is, but hey :p
<slangasek> any other questions on MOTU?
<slangasek> #endmeeting
<slangasek> #end, #end, damn meeting
<slangasek> thanks, all :)
<slangasek> Keybuk: actually, everything /in/ rc2 appears to be running
<ScottK> slangasek: I looked at binutils and I don't see anything obviously related to qt4-x11 on powerpc
<apw> slangasek, thanks
<pitti> thanks al
<pitti> l
<slangasek> ScottK: ack; will pursue it from the bug log
<Keybuk> slangasek: is one of your network-interface jobs stuck at start/starting ?
<ScottK> slangasek: Thanks.
<slangasek> Keybuk: no (--> #ubuntu-devel?)
<Keybuk> oh, that's the usual failure case
#ubuntu-meeting 2010-12-20
<cjwatson> oh 'eck, I'm supposed to be the DMB chair this week
<cjwatson> bdrung,cody-somerville,persia,geser,soren: roll call
<cjwatson> stgraber sent his apologies
<cjwatson> poolie: just rounding folks up
<poolie> ok, thanks
 * barry waves
 * geser is "half" here (I'm at work)
 * cjwatson tries to get the Canonical holiday calendar to load
<cjwatson> if we can't manage quorum I'd rather know early so that poolie can go to sleep
<poolie> thanks :)
<cjwatson> oh, soren said he'd be on holiday
<cjwatson> come ON, canonicaladmin
<poolie> heh :)
<barry> indeed, it was pretty slow last week
<bdrung> i am there now
<cjwatson> Cody can't usually make these times, it's too early in the S
<cjwatson> US
<cjwatson> so I think this only works if persia happens to be around
<barry> cjwatson: 7am's not too early :)
<cjwatson> it is for him :)
<cjwatson> 9pm in .jp
<bdrung> 7 am would be way to early for me, too
 * barry too w/o a kid to get to school :)
<cjwatson> ah, and Cody's on holiday today anyway
<cjwatson> Emmet's not known to be on holiday, but if he's not around by now, I'm not sure he will be
<cjwatson> I'll wait until :10 and then declare this meeting cancelled if we aren't quorate
<poolie> perhaps, in the event we don't reach quorum, people who are here could give some nonbinding opinions on my applications
<poolie> *application
<poolie> or, guidance as to what to do
<cjwatson> I already made some comments, and said last time:
<cjwatson> http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2010/12/06/%23ubuntu-meeting.txt:[20:38] <cjwatson> I have no complaints or questions but I know some people like to talk to applicants in person
<cjwatson> bdrung,geser: would either of you like to comment on any of the applications before us?
<cjwatson> that's https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MartinPool/DeveloperApplication, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BarryWarsaw/MyApplication, and https://wiki.ubuntu.com/AngelAbad/MOTUApplication
<bdrung> yes
<geser> poolie: do you expect more person to apply for bzr (and related) upload rights? so cjwatson should make a bzr packageset
<poolie> actually yes, that seems to make sense
<poolie> there is a set of bzr and closely-related packages that are likely to be uploaded together
<cjwatson> maxb comes to mind
<cjwatson> also jelmer
<poolie> lifeless
<poolie> and, perhaps other people in future
 * jelmer waves
<cjwatson> yes
<poolie> i guess lifeless and james are(?) already core devs, so this would be redundant
<cjwatson> lifeless is already motu but not core-dev
<jelmer> cjwatson: I've actually been meaning to apply for PerPackageUploader-ship but haven't finished my application yet.
<cjwatson> james_w is a core-dev, yes
<cjwatson> but with a reasonably plausible team of four+ that would certainly be worth creating a package set
<cjwatson> I think that also perhaps makes poolie's application simpler; he doesn't have upload history on all the packages, but they do form part of a coherent theme
<poolie> the main thing i want to do with this is to propose MinorReleaseException candidates for a SRU
<geser> poolie: how much involved are you in packaging bzr? I ask because LP shows only one sponsored bzr upload for you and the debian/changelog doesn't mention you
<poolie> at the moment, we do stable releases that are supposed to be suitable for getting in to Ubuntu updates but they seem to be stalling
<poolie> geser: i have done packaging for it into the ppa in the past
<poolie> most of the time either maxb or jelmer has uploaded into debian (since they are, iiuc, dd's), and it's flowed from there
<geser> would having you PPU upload right change the workflow much (first to Debian and then sync to Ubuntu)?
<poolie> i think the particular thing it would change is that i could execute step 4 of https://wiki.ubuntu.com/StableReleaseUpdates#Procedure
<poolie> ie uploading to -proposed
<geser> do the PPA packages differ much from the "official" ones? (I'm trying to judge your packaging skills)
<geser> cjwatson: would you need to also create bzr package sets for the released Ubuntu versions (if it's possible) to allow poolie to upload to -proposed?
<poolie> geser: no, they normally track pretty closely
<cjwatson> I think so, and yes it's possible
<cjwatson> albeit unpleasantly manual
<poolie> as i said on my application, most of what i've contributed to debian and ubuntu has not been packaging-specific work
<poolie> i don't know if that's just a kind of blindness on my part, or just that i tend to fix bugs that are in the source itself not in packaging-
<poolie> i'm very happy with getting review/mentorship/whatever and taking things carefully
<poolie> it just seems to me that doing that within the context of PPU may flow more easily than just asking on the bug
<poolie> which does not seem to be working very well atm
<bdrung> poolie: are you member of the Debian Bazaar Maintainers team?
<poolie> no
<poolie> i'm not a dd (i'm not sure if that's a necessary condition)
<jelmer> poolie: it's not necessary, we'd be happy to have you as a member
<poolie> ah ok
<poolie> what should i do?
<bdrung> poolie: as member you gain commit access. then you can commit your changes and once a package is ready for upload, you can ask to review and upload
<jelmer> poolie: Create an account on Alioth (http://alioth.debian.org/) and request to join the team at https://alioth.debian.org/projects/pkg-bazaar/
<poolie> ok, i'll do that
<cjwatson> poolie: as a general rule what times suit you?  rather than keeping you up again I think we should try to arrange a special meeting
<cjwatson> given the timezone difficulty
<poolie> i'm normally awake/online-ish from about 0800 to 1900 in utc+11
<poolie> up until about this time of day is reasonable; after midnight (+30m from now) tends to mess up the next day
<cjwatson> so 2100-0800 UTC.  I think we'd want to aim for either end of that for maximum board-member coverage
<bdrung> cjohnston: 0800 UTC is better than 2100 UTC?
<geser> tab-fail :)
<bdrung> damn, tab completion
<poolie> 0800utc is fine with me
<cjwatson> bdrung: possibly, I was just looking up the results from the last time I asked people
<barry> poolie: thanks for the endorsement!
<poolie> you're welcome
<bdrung> cjwatson: i prefer 2100 - 2300 UTC
<cjwatson> 0800 would lose cody-somerville and I think stgraber too
<cjwatson> I could make it, I imagine everyone else in Europe could, it's probably OK for persia too
<cjwatson> 2100 is presumably good for cody-somerville and stgraber, I can make it at least on some days, bdrung can, not sure about persia as it's 0600 there, soren said he could make that time range before
<geser> 2100 - 2300 UTC suit me much better than 0800 UTC as I'm usually awake till 0000 UTC
<cjwatson> so I agree, 2100 UTC seems better on average
<poolie> that's even easier for me
<cjwatson> poolie: if you could send a mail to developer-membership-board@ suggesting that time and some days in the new year, then, that would be great
<poolie> i could do it tomorrow, or the day after, or otherwise the new year
<cjwatson> and we can get things sorted out
<cjwatson> I suspect holidays will intervene if we try to do it this year, unfortunately
<poolie> ok
<geser> cjwatson: I guess a "python" package set (for barry) would be a management nightmare, right?
<poolie> do the board members who are present feel this is basically on track to be approved?
<cjwatson> I suspect so
<geser> poolie: I'm not fully decided yet, I'd prefer to see your name mentioned more often in debian/changelog (or sponsored Ubuntu uploads)
<barry> geser: i made such a suggestion a month or so ago, but didn't get much response on it, so i gathered it wasn't a popular suggestions ;)
<cjwatson> I can't speak for everyone else; constructed as a package set, I think it has a good chance
<bdrung> poolie: i have a little concern if you have enough packaging experience.
<poolie> ok, that's useful, i can work towards making sure that does show up more often
<bdrung> poolie: your name in debian/changelog and your name as Uploader (for packages maintained in Debian) are a sign for packaging skills
<cjwatson> I would say that the bzr packaging is not generally particularly complicated, and I'm more concerned about general level-of-caring / ability to deal with bugs; given that poolie created bzr I'm not sure there's anyone more able to meet those criteria
<cjwatson> but I realise I probably focus less on upload history than other people here
<poolie> i guess it's not for me in this situation to tell you how to review people
<cjwatson> does anyone have any comments on barry's application?
<poolie> but, when i grant access, i tend to go a lot more by "not likely to do anything rash/malicious"
<geser> barry: I'm with micahg's comment that 26 uploads (which are mostly python related) are a very few for a "core-dev"
<bdrung> re barry: i like to see one step before becoming core-dev. a python set would seams to be the right thing for me.
<cjwatson> geser: *blink*
<cjwatson> bdrung: I'm not prepared to manage a python set
<cjwatson> very many of our present core-devs had fewer than 26 uploads before joining
<geser> cjwatson: upload history is often a good source for judging packaging skills (getting mention in debian/changelog an other)
<cjwatson> but it's not the only one, and it's not even necessarily the most important one
<cjwatson> we should not laser-focus on it
<barry> i've had a ton of ppa uploads, though i tend to keep them pruned over time
<barry> agreed that i've been python focused, but that kind of makes sense given my background and the ongoing py27 transition :)  i do plan on diversifying once that gets more stable
<barry> geser: but i get that more, and different, experience can't hurt my application.  thanks
<bdrung> barry: re python: i am missing a policy document for what is recommended.
<barry> bdrung: sorry, i don't understand
<bdrung> barry: we want to move to dh_python2 with ubuntu-dev-tools. i was searching for documentation what needs to be put into d/control
<barry> bdrung: ah. yes, we do need to update the debian python policy for that iirc.  i can work with debian-python to get that in.  there's a number of places that i think need updating to discuss/promote dh_python2
<bdrung> barry: for example: should we use XS-Python-Version, XB-Python-Version, X-Python-Version? on which package do we have to depend if we want to use dh_python2?
 * tumbleweed sticks his nose in
<tumbleweed> bdrung: we also need some lintian checks for those at some point...
<barry> x-python-version is recommended, and debhelper (>= 7.0.50~) is i believe the necessary dependency
<tumbleweed> bdrung: there are also versioned dependancy requirements on python(-all)
<tumbleweed> err, barry
<barry> right (i was assuming that, but you know what that say about "assuming" :)
<bdrung> it would be nice to have that in the python policy
<barry> bdrung: totally agreed
<barry> (it's on my todo list now)
<geser> cjwatson: I try to not focus on upload history alone, but in barry's case the endorsements are also mostly python related (and few, so I don't have much data for judgement)
<cjwatson> OK.  I'm going to call it a day here since we can't decide anything anyway, but I encourage people to continue these conversations on other channels
<cjwatson> geser: that doesn't bother me for core-dev.  it's broad enough.
<bdrung> cjwatson: for MOTUs we want to see a full range of activities like sync requests, merges, SRUs, ..., but for core-dev a specific knowledge is enough?
<cjwatson> bdrung: it's not that specific
<cjwatson> anyway, I give up.  it's obviously the DMB's desire that it be impossible to gain core-dev.
<geser> cjwatson: before you leave, we should call for new DMB candidates (with christmas and vacations now)
<cjwatson> this is exceptionally frustrating for me.
<cjwatson> I don't think I would have bothered applying for core-dev under the current system.
<poolie> bdrung, geser: may i ask you if, considering barry's application, you think it's very likely that he will make either malicious or careless changes to Ubuntu?
<poolie> (and if so, what kind of situation you'd fear might happen)
<bdrung> cjwatson: Things are never as bad as they seem (or as we say in German: Es wird nichts so heiÃ gegessen, wie es gekocht wird)
<cjwatson> bdrung: this has been going on for far too long
<cjwatson> it has been frustrating me for a long time
<cjwatson> I've seen too many developers wasting time for months on end because our process is just too bureaucratic and scary
<cjwatson> so they never bother applying
<cjwatson> too much great talent going to waste
<bdrung> cjwatson: do we have some guidelines listing the criteria for getting upload rights?
<cjwatson> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopers is the best we have
<tumbleweed> poolie: I've seen barry make one or two common mistakes all (new?) debian/ubuntu developers make (i.e. not closing bugs in changelogs, poor version number choices). Not exactly serious stuff, just things that get less likely with packaging experience. I'm not *worried* about him as a core-dev, though.
<poolie> so, if he was a core dev, he would probably make some minor or common mistakes
<poolie> he would probably do more packaging and thereby accumulate experience faster?
<geser> cjwatson: do you feel that we require to much "proof" of experience instead of relying more on endorsements?
<barry> tumbleweed: agreed. one of the things i'm interested in is helping to make our tools better so those kinds of common mistakes don't happen. e.g. the syntax for bug closing is pretty strict, a typo will screw it up
<cjwatson> I think we focus on the wrong kinds of experience
<tumbleweed> poolie: probably, but having someone review your uploads means you are less likely to get into bad habits
<cjwatson> sure, poolie doesn't have many uploads.  but look how much experience he has with bzr, the centre of the proposed package set in question
<cjwatson> and for that matter barry's a stalwart of the upstream python community and has been for a long time
<geser> cjwatson: we should focus more on the communication skills ? (e.g. asking on IRC or mailings lists if one has doubts about a change?)
<barry> i'm also involved w/dholbach's efforts at a new packaging guide.  our current set of wiki guidelines are fairly disjoint, and oddly too much of the wrong kind of detail
<cjwatson> in those cases I think we really just need to make sure they aren't hopelessly confused and aren't likely to screw things up too badly.  the fact that they're experienced developers should count for a lot more.
<poolie> tumbleweed: so the concern behind that is that if someone has core-dev membership or whatever, they will never get reviews, or never seek mentorship?
<poolie> (that may well be empirically true, for all i know; i'm just trying to make the assumptions explicit)
<cjwatson> any experienced upstream developer is going to care about the state of the software and is likely to be mature enough to ask for help if they need t
<cjwatson> *it
<cjwatson> our current practice essentially says "we don't want upstream developers to get involved"
<cjwatson> that may not be the intent but that's the effect
<cjwatson> because we don't bother crediting that kind of work
<poolie> geser: in my experience as a developer, if somebody has a pattern of changing things _without_ communicating or asking
<poolie> especially when they should have known to ask
<cjwatson> and this depresses me because those are the sorts of people we need more of in the Ubuntu community
<geser> is packaging really that comparable with upstream development?
<tumbleweed> poolie: it is a worry I have when I endorse people who I haven't seen ask for help. But I think enough people follow -changes and will question thigs.
<poolie> that's a huge red flag - in fact pretty much the most important one
<cjwatson> so we develop a self-congratulating community of people who know how to sync and merge stuff
<cjwatson> which is all well and good but it's not the centre of everything
<cjwatson> geser: yes
<cjwatson> it's all code
<cjwatson> sure, different tools, different details, it does have to be learned
<poolie> tumbleweed: right, i think reading -changes is very healthy
<cjwatson> but if you look at the packaging diff for your average bzr upload, it's not exactly that hard
<cjwatson> if we perpetuate a myth that packaging is hard, people will think it's hard
<cjwatson> it's not
<poolie> right, months go by with nothing more than a version bump
<cjwatson> it's no harder than your average upstream build system
<barry> re: -changes, see my recent suggestion about diffs that i think would actually help upstreams feel more comfortable and participate more
<maco> cjwatson: and to anyone who's looked at autotools stuff, id say easier...
<cjwatson> well, let's not focus on autotools, I find autotools quite natural
<geser> perhaps I'm too biases with sometimes seeing upstream fighting with packaging in #ubuntu-motu and #ubuntu-packaging (or when occassionally looking at REVU)
<cjwatson> build systems are very much personal preference
<bdrung> packaging is simpler than setting up autotools
<barry> the interesting thing is that packaging, specifically d/rules is where the crazy wild west of upstream build systems meets the much more controlled environment of deb/ubu building.  deb/ubu packaging is not hard once you learn the basic guidelines, but d/rules can be quite insane
<poolie> geser: i think there probably is some amount of fighting through failing to understand
<bdrung> barry: having an upstream source that uses three commands to build and install the package, makes d/rules simple
<poolie> i've seen some awful packaging into third-party debs or rpms for instance
<barry> bdrung: very true.  upstreams don't always cooperate though ;)
<poolie> but, what are you going to do about it? keeping upstreams out is not a very scalable answer
<barry> otoh, as simple as 90% of upstream python packages are (or can be), i've seen lots of cruft in the d/u packaging of some python packages.
<barry> i would *love* to be at a place where 90% of python packages have a 3 line d/rules file, but we're not there yet
<bdrung> i recommend to simplify d/rules and create patches to achieve the same and send those patches to upstream.
<barry> bdrung: most likely to debian
<cjwatson> there is a trap here where we fail to distinguish personal packaging preferences from quality requirements
<cjwatson> it's still perfectly acceptable for people to use pre-dh debhelper, for instance
<tumbleweed> (and probably more understandable for less experienced packagers)
<cjwatson> if they were doing the whole thing by hand without any helper at all?  these days, that most likely indicates a lack of familiarity with the tools
<cjwatson> but we certainly aren't at the point where we can say that if you aren't using dh rules.tiny or cdbs then you're Doing It Wrong
<barry> it's definitely true that dh has a lot of "magic", which can be good since folks don't need to worry about a lot of detail, but very bad when they do (because it's very undiscoverable)
<cjwatson> anyway, I'm going to take my frustration to mail, I think
<poolie> i'm going to take mine to bed :)
<poolie> i hope you will send that mail though
<barry> thanks for the feedback guys
<poolie> same here
<geser> cjwatson: looks like there is a too big divergence on what to expect from each applicant
<angelabad> sorry, but, what about my application?
<geser> angelabad: we aren't quorate today
<angelabad> geser, ok, so I must wait for the next meeting?
<bdrung> angelabad: yes
<angelabad> ok, no problem.
<geser> angelabad: don't worry, the other have to wait too (it's only an informal discussion)
<angelabad> ok, thanks
<mdeslaur> hello
<kees> jdstrand, sbeattie: meetin' time?
<mdeslaur> hiya kees! :P
 * mdeslaur is excited
<kees>      [0;1;34;94mâ[0m
<kees> [0;1;34;94mâââ[0m [0;1;34;94mâ[0m
<kees> [0;34mâ[0m [0;34mââ[0m
<kees> [0;34mââ[0m [0;34mâ[0m
<jdstrand> sure
<mdeslaur> wth is that
<mdeslaur> ansi art?
<kees> vt100 colors and unicode characters for a 4-line version of   o/
<mdeslaur> ah, well that explains why I can't see it :)
<jjohansen> hehe, /me neither
<kees> uhm, okay, starting.
<kees> so, I've been fighting filesystem corruption on my debmirror. I think I'm hitting bugs in either the kernel's LVM, md, or ext4 or in e2fsprogs.
<kees> so that's slowing me down.
<mdeslaur> kees: that narrows it down :)
 * jjohansen hides
<jdstrand> kees: way to narrow it down :P
<kees> I've still got more auditing work to do.
<kees> mdeslaur: yeah
<jdstrand> mdeslaur: haha
<mdeslaur> hehe
<kees> I suspect it's the online resizing, actually.
<kees> anyway, my week is kind of open for pre-year-end interrupts.
<kees> I'd like to clear the audit queue
<kees> but anyway, that's it. mdeslaur is up
<mdeslaur> so
<mdeslaur> today's my last day before I go on holiday
<mdeslaur> I'll be officially back on the 3rd
<mdeslaur> but since I suck, I'll probably be here anyway
<mdeslaur> today, I did a cve run and will do some triage
<mdeslaur> that's it!
<mdeslaur> jdstrand: your turn
<jdstrand> \o/
<jdstrand> so, I start my end of year holiday on thursday, and will be back on the thrid
<jdstrand> third
<jdstrand> I will take over triage and community from mdeslaur tomorrow and wed
<kees> I can do it thu
<jdstrand> as for work this week, I am not planning security updates, unless something big comes up
<jdstrand> I plan to continue on my apparmor documentation tear
<kees> jdstrand: that's rocking, btw :)
<jdstrand> and possibly look at the dbus stuff again
<jdstrand> kees: thanks!
<jdstrand> that's it from me
<jdstrand> jjohansen: are you here this week at all?
<jjohansen> yeah
<jdstrand> jjohansen: cool. I'll likely poke you about some doc updates I'm working on today
<jjohansen> sounds good
<kees> so, for apache mod_apparmor
<jdstrand> yes?
<kees> should we try to write upstream tests, qrt tests, or some combo?
<mdeslaur> we had talked about writing qrt tests
<jdstrand> qrt seems a natural fit since we need apache around to test it
<jjohansen> kees: both
<kees> the apache-server-running infrastructure exists in qrt, so putting it in upstream would be irritating :)
<mdeslaur> maybe upstream tests would be more appropriate...but we would need apache
<kees> jjohansen: okay
<jdstrand> though, sbeattie mentioned there is some stuff that could be added upstream as well
<jjohansen> I think upstream should have some tests but they just don't get launched by default
<kees> perhaps start with qrt since it's easier to get up and running and work from there?
<jjohansen> and you need apache setup
<jjohansen> yes
<jdstrand> ah
<jdstrand> that would work with qrt anyway-- we just setup apache and then run the upstream tests
<jdstrand> kinda like we do for some of the other test suites
<jdstrand> that should be added as a WorkItem if it isn't already
<jdstrand> I'll add it
<kees> okay, thanks everyone!
<jdstrand> (added)
<mdeslaur> thanks!
<jdstrand> thanks kees!
#ubuntu-meeting 2010-12-21
<udienz> @schedule now
<ubottu> Sorry, the @schedule function has been disabled. To see the schedule for meetings see http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar. To see the current time in another time zone, use @now
<udienz> @now
<ubottu> Current time in Etc/UTC: December 21 2010, 02:09:56
 * ejat pokes elky
 * ejat pokes udienz
<lifeless> hi
<ejat> hi lifeless
 * nobuto (one of candidates) is ready
<udienz> hello lifeless ejat
 * udienz preparing some coffee
<ejat> sorry for away/absence from previous2 meeting .. hopefully i can give attention back :) bz with work + personal things ..
<udienz> @now
<ubottu> Current time in Etc/UTC: December 21 2010, 10:03:05
<udienz> Asia/Oceania Membership board meeting now?
<elky> hi
<ejat> hi elky
<udienz> hello elky
<udienz> elky, lifeless, ejat: Asia/Oceania Membership board meeting now?
<udienz> persia?
<elky> i've literally only just walked in the door
<udienz> +11 minutes
<elky> i'm aware,  but nobody else is even responding
<elky> many who are on the board are likely travelling or busy due to the holiday season
<elky> freeflying?
<lifeless> udienz: we're here, as you can see when ejat pinged
<lifeless> ejat udienz lifeless elky : 4 folk
<freeflying> elky: yes
<elky> ok we have 5, can someone chair, i need dinner and to pack for flying to visit family tomorrow morning
<elky> i'll participate, but i can't lead
<maqtanim> hi I m here for the meeting, I am an applicant!
<elky> lifeless, wait, udienz isn't part of quorum
<elky> he's an applicant
<udienz> elky: yup, i'm apllicant
<elky> ogitux is first up, and not here. shani is first in queue.
<lifeless> oh
<lifeless> <- tired
<elky> shani, are you there?
<elky> lifeless, ya, likewise. ground stopped moving yet? :P
<lifeless> yeah
 * freeflying is in another meeting 
<elky> shani, isn't responding. maqtanim please paste your pre-prepared introduction to us
<maqtanim> ok
<maqtanim> Hi everyone. I am Adnan Quiaum. I am a Bangladeshi. Currently I am conducting my MSc in Electrical and Electronics Engineering. I am not a IT professional or a software developer, but the enthusiasm for Ubuntu brought me in to the Ubuntu community. And here is my wiki page https://wiki.ubuntu.com/maqtanim
<maqtanim> BTW my nick name is maqtanim
<udienz> btw, elky you forget to start metting
<elky> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 04:21. The chair is elky.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<elky> that's part of me not actually being in an ideal position to lead the meeting
<maqtanim> Shall I paste that again?
<elky> no
<elky> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/maqtanim
 * elky glares at MootBot
<elky> you were capturing those all by yourself the other day!
<elky> [link] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/maqtanim
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/maqtanim
<elky> lifeless: freeflying, ejat, got any questions for maqtanim
<ejat> maqtanim: anything else u want to share as enthuasiasm with us beside on the wiki?
<ejat> maqtanim: r u there ?
<elky> maqtanim, we're pressed for time as always, we need you to be attentive
<elky> [action] putting discussion of maqtanim on hold until he returns
<MootBot> ACTION received:  putting discussion of maqtanim on hold until he returns
<elky> ogitux, i noticed you returned?
<ogitux> yes elky
<elky> ogitux, can you please introduce yourself and why you are applying for membership
<ejat> ouch .. sorry ..
<lifeless_> sorry, net disconnect
<lifeless_> elky: I've lost 8 minutes
<ejat> lifeless_: me too .. client crash :(
<elky> lifeless, you didn't lose any content
<ejat> done with maqtanim vote ?
<lifeless_> 23:22 < maqtanim> Shall I paste that again?
<elky> ejat, no, he's not responding, i postponed it
<maco> no, maqtanim went mia
<lifeless_> 23:22 < elky> no
<lifeless_> 23:29 -!- lifeless_ [~robertc@122-63-10-108.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #ubuntu-meeting
<ejat> elky: owh ok ..
<lifeless_> ah
<Mohan_chml> ejat: hes not responding
<elky> ejat, we're never going to get through it otherwise
<elky> an hour per applicant is giving us an awful backlog
<ejat> elky: agreed
<Ekushey> maqtanim is not here?
<Ekushey> I'm here to support him
<Mohan_chml> Ekushey: He is not responding
<elky> maqtanim, he isn't responding, we'll finish when he returns
<ejat> ogitux: as elky say .. can u please intro yaself n why r u applying for membership
<elky> Ekushey, leave your testimony and we'll consider it if you have to leave
<ogitux> My name Adnan Kashogi , I am Live in Indonesia , and I want join member ubuntu because i want study about operating system opensource
<Ekushey> I think something is wrong with his connection
<ovroniil> sorry I was disconnected
<elky> Ekushey, that's fine, but time isn't waiting for it.
<maqtannim> sorry I was disconnected
<elky> there he is
<elky> [action] resuming maqtanim's application
<MootBot> ACTION received:  resuming maqtanim's application
<lifeless_> I think freenode may have lost a server or something
<elky> lifeless, yeah, rather uncleanly
<Mohan_chml> ogitux: please wait for a second
<ogitux> now I am study system information faculty on indonesia budiluhur university
<elky> and there's the clean bit
<lifeless_> ahha there it goes
<ogitux> Mohan_chml: ok
<maqtannim> sorry for that
<ejat> maqtannim: is there anything else u wanna share with us beside at the wiki ?
<Mohan_chml> elky: now ogitux is talking. I told him to wait
<maqtannim> well...
<maqtannim> I am a hobbyist
<maqtannim> graphic designer
<elky> Mohan_chml, i saw, thanks.
<maqtannim> and designed some banners and poster
<maqtannim> for ubuntu BAngladesh
<maqtannim> that's all I think
<maqtannim> :)
<Ekushey> I vouch for maqtannim also as the founder of the ubuntu-bd loco and being a ubuntu member myself -- he has made a lot of contribution with bengali documentation, marketing, and taking care of all our graphics related work -- he's been doing this for a long time and he deserves to get a reward :)
<Ekushey> *ommit also
<ejat> maqtannim: r u involve virtually or gather in lug or loco meetup :)
<maqtannim> ejat yes
<elky> yes to which?
<maqtannim> at #bangladesh
<maqtannim> and
<maqtannim> #ubuntu-bd
<ejat> physically ?
<maqtannim> not actually
<maqtannim> because for my study
<maqtannim> I am abroad right now
<maqtannim> but within 3/4 months
<maqtannim> i'll be back to my home again
<maqtannim> after that I can join the monthly
<maqtannim> meeting of Ubuntu Bangladesh
<elky> lifeless: freeflying, any further questions?
<lifeless> not I
<ejat> as a founder of ubuntu-bd .. havent u think should have mini meetup or release party or small gathering should be good ? i mean before u go abroad .. :)
<maqtannim> well I am not the founder actually
<maqtannim> the founder is ekushey
<maqtannim> * Ekushey
<maqtannim> I am a member
<maqtannim> current founder
<maqtannim> and team leader
<maqtannim> of Ubuntu Bangladesh
<ejat> elky: should we vote ?
<maqtannim> is in Bangladesh right now
<ejat> lifeless: ?
<ejat> freeflying: ?
<elky> ejat, if freeflying is around still...
<Ekushey> ejat sorry if I wasn't very clear, just woke up from sleep
<ejat> Ekushey: :)
<ejat> elky , lifeless .. only 3 of us ?
 * elky headdesks
<elky> ejat, we seem to have lost freeflying, yes
<ejat> ouch ...
<Ekushey> I strongly recommend maqtannim, as well as another guy in our team who'll apply for membership very soon -- being involved ubuntu-bd since 2006 this is the first time I'm vouching for someone from my country :)
 * ejat scratching head ..... 
<freeflying> elky: sorry, stuck at another business meeting
<ejat> owh .. finally ..
<ejat> freeflying: anything to ask ?
<elky> freeflying, if we vote, do you think you can give decision?
 * ejat how about u elky ? winks
<elky> ejat, eh? i'm leading, of course i can
<ejat> :) oppss my bad ..
<ejat> shall we vote ? lifeless , elky , freeflying?
<elky> [vote] maqtannim for membership
<MootBot> Please vote on:  maqtannim for membership.
<MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
<MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
<elky> ejat?
<udienz> ejat? lifeless? freeflying?
<lifeless> udienz: yes?
<elky> lifeless, can you vote on maqtannim?
<lifeless> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from lifeless. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
<lifeless> elky: can you ?
<ejat> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from ejat. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2
<elky> lifeless, yea, but i have to close the vote, i'll do it then
<ejat> kinda hard to decide ... :)
<ejat> freeflying:  ?
<lifeless> I have to go, ~midnight and I can't do justice to a candidate in 10 minutes.
<elky> lifeless, i'd doubt we'd get through a candidate in that time.
<ejat> lifeless: same goes with me ...
<ejat> elky ... freeflying ?
<Mohan_chml> hes waiting for freeflying
<elky> vish, please stop that.
<maqtannim> sorry I was disconnected again :(
<elky> maqtannim, that's ok, we're waiting for freeflying to vote still
<vish> elky: oops! netsplit and i mess'd up with a lot of commands :/
<elky> vish, at least you didn't try identify
<vish> heh, i hadnt grouped the evilvish nick hence my confusion..
<e-jat> Ill on mobile...
<Mohan_chml> Okies. I am leaving. bye o/
<freeflying> ejat: I can;t vote, because I'm busy with other meeting sorry about it
<elky> popey, are you around? Someone from another RMB?
<maco> im around
<ejat> maco ?
 * maco reads scrollback
<ejat> :)
<maco> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from maco. 3 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 3
<elky> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from elky. 4 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 4
<elky> [endvote]
<MootBot> Final result is 4 for, 0 against. 0 abstained. Total: 4
<elky> yaaaaaaaaay maqtannim
<maqtannim> Thanks a lot guys :)
<maqtannim> Thanks A lot
<udienz> congrats mustaqim
<maqtannim> :D
<maqtannim> thanks udienz
<maqtannim> :)
<maqtannim> so what will be my next step?
<udienz> mustaqim: we waiting for elky now. but i thinks times is up
<ejat> congrate maqtannim
<maqtannim> thanks ejat :)
 * ejat thanks to maco too :) 
<maco> maqtannim: next you will get an email saying you were added to the ubuntumembers team on launchpad, and in a little while an email alias will be activated for you
<ejat> elky: so u would like to postpone the meeting or continue ?
<maqtannim> thanks maco
<ejat> maqtannim: hope u can continue ya afford contributing :)
<maco> technically i think the meeting time is up...its been an hour
<ejat> maco: yeah .
<maqtannim> ejat : sure ...
<maqtannim> you can count on me :)
<maco> wow elky, you werent joking with <elky> an hour per applicant is giving us an awful backlog
<ejat> maco: it base on experience .. thats y she can say like that .. it happened..
<elky> the fun part is when people rip in to those of us who show up, because others didnt.
<maco> how many of you are still active?
<elky> enough, for quorum and then some, but not everyone is available every week
<maco> ah
<elky> for instance, vantrax is at a family function this week, i was travelling two meetings ago, lifeless often passes out before 11pm
<elky> and then there's the case that several of our members are not in first world infrastructures and often lose internets
<nobuto> Is the meeting closed?
<elky> maco, we had at least two RMB applicants floating around who could have participated, but can't because the restaffing is held up
<ejat> elky: end/close meeting ..
<udienz> nobutp: not yet
<elky> nobuto, yes sorry
<elky> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 05:18.
<ejat> :) ..
<udienz> :)
<maco> is that in the CC's hands?
<elky> nobuto, sorry, we have quite a backlog and we're understaffed
<elky> maco, yes
 * maco holds tongue
<nobuto> I hope I will be Ubuntu member in next meeting. 4th January?
<ogitux> :D
<elky> nobuto, that's when it'd be due, i can't guarantee everyone will be available though
<maco> nobuto: what tz are you in?
<nobuto> UTC+9:00
<udienz> nobuto: japanese?
<elky> ogitux, sorry, we'll get to you next time. if you can keep your irc nick up to date on the wiki page we won't miss you next time
<nobuto> udienz: Yes.
 * maco tries math
<ogitux> elky: ok no problem
<maco> 14 hours difference from here...oh so...
<udienz> elky: i send emails to LoCo council about ubuntu-id
<nobuto> maco: I'm in 20:21 now.
<udienz> ah.. i'm forget to say hello to maco
<udienz> hello maco
<ogitux> elky: I am wait next meeting
<maco> nobuto: the americas rmb meets in the late morning in your tz i think
<elky> ogitux, alternatively you can try EMEA or the americas board
<maco> nobuto: we dont have a backlog if you'd like to come to our meeting
<maco> this month's has happened already but... 21 Jan is the next
<udienz> elky: heh? EMEA? is that possible?
<elky> udienz, sure, you don't ahve to be european or african to apply to it
<ogitux> elky: I live indonesia region asia
<maco> ogitux: the regional thing are more about timezone compatibility and possibility of translation
<udienz> elky: ok thanks i will read fridge again
<maco> (americas board had a meeting where we all pulled out our rusty high school spanish skills)
<nobuto> maco: thanks. I will try it if i miss next AsiaOceania RMB.
<ogitux> maco: owh ok thank for information
<udienz> ogitux, http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar
<maco> nobuto: i think its juu ji gozen
 * maco needs to setup ibus on here
<nobuto> maco: thaks and you have nice Japanese skills :)
<maco> arigatou gazaimasu. demo, chotto nihongo wo hanasemasu ;)
<maco> s/wo/ga/
<maco> i need practice
<maqtannim> well I don't know how the board is formed
<maqtannim> but I think there should be
<maqtannim> some extra seat in the board
<maqtannim> specially board like asia ocenia
<udienz> :)
<maqtannim> where there is different TZ
<maqtannim> like the football team :)
<maqtannim> so that there is always a strong chance of fulfilling the quoram
<maco> there are two open spots on the board, as elky mentioned
<maco> there are two people for the spots but their approval is still pending
<elky> maqtannim, some terms ended and the cc hasn't sorted out the restaffing yet. other boards are in a similar predicament, but i suspect with fewer timezones to trip over.
<maqtannim> hmm...
<maco> we're one short but only have 4 timezones to care about usually
<maqtanim> I guess asia-ocenia region is the largest one
<maqtanim> so more frequent meeting should be scheduled
<maqtanim> for this region
<maqtanim> I mean for this board
<e-jat> :)
<udienz> maqtanim: agreed
<elky> maqtanim, it's not the frequency that's the problem. we can't get enough board staff twice a month, i don't think we'd get them for four times a month
<maqtanim> elky, I did not think it that way :P
<maqtanim> my bad :P
<elky> (also, i like having some weeknights for me :P)
<maco> æ¥æ¬èª <-- i got ibus working!
<hallyn> \o
<SpamapS> o/
<SpamapS> zul: are you here? Otherwise I get the honors.
<SpamapS> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 10:08. The chair is SpamapS.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<SpamapS> [TOPIC] motion to adjourn meeting and carry all items forward to next meeting
<MootBot> New Topic:  motion to adjourn meeting and carry all items forward to next meeting
<hallyn> @vote 1
<hallyn> #vote 1
<hallyn> or somesuch
<SpamapS> alright, seconded. All opposed, nay, all in favor aye.
<SpamapS> aye
<hallyn> #vote +1
<hallyn> aye
<SpamapS> very well, the aye's have it.
<SpamapS> [TOPIC] Announce next meeting date and time
<MootBot> New Topic:  Announce next meeting date and time
<SpamapS> Tuesday, Jan 4 2011, 16:00 UTC
<hallyn> ttx is being all silent-like :)
<hallyn> ta-ta
<SpamapS> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 10:12.
<ttx> haha
<SpamapS> thanks everybody!
<ttx> you're too fast for me
<hggdh> ~Ã´~
<hggdh> oops
<hggdh> too late
<fagan> wendar: we have a meeting here in 15 right?
 * fagan *waves*
<fagan> oh damn was it yesterday
<fagan> crap
<wendar> hi fagan
<fagan> wendar: is it today or did I get it mixed up
<wendar> it's today, and now
<wendar> will ping the others
<fagan> oh ok I got confused there for a sec since you sent your email on monday in ireland and said tomorrow
<statik> hello
<fagan> statik: hey
<wendar> fagan: yes, I used "tomorrow" because the meetings are on Tuesday for most of us but Wednesday down-under
<fagan> yeah I just got that
 * wendar double-checking to see if 3 out of 6 counts as a quorum
<stgraber> hey everyone
<fagan> stgraber: hey
<stgraber> I'm at around 50% here (multi-tasking) :)
<wendar> excellent,
<wendar> and, 3 or more votes is enough, and now we've got 4
<wendar> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 12:06. The chair is wendar.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<wendar> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/AppReviewBoard/Agenda
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/AppReviewBoard/Agenda
<wendar> [TOPIC] Action review
<MootBot> New Topic:  Action review
<wendar> I had an action item from the last meeting to start the wiki pages.
<wendar> I've got two up now, one main landing page (just a start), and an agenda page for our meetings
<wendar> I need to start on the submissions info page
<statik> thanks for working on those wendar
<wendar> (I figure we'll all end up contributing to it)
<fagan> well im pretty good at documenting stuff so ill make sure to help out there
<wendar> excellent
<wendar> the other action items we carried away were helping the developers through the proposal process
<wendar> How is that going for everyone?
<statik> I had an action to work with the pytask developer, and have massively failed to make progress
<statik> I will make progress this week
<fagan> ive been a little busy with christmas tests for college but ill take on one of the packages this week
<wendar> I managed to help the SIR developer through to a final solution, but didn't feel like I spent enough time on it. I would like to be more responsive.
<wendar> fagan: did you take one from the last meeting? or would you be available to take the new submission we got last week?
<fagan> wendar: nope didnt take one
<fagan> ill take the new one
<wendar> fagan: okay great
<fagan> christmas break I have time to burn :)
<wendar> christmas holidays are great for that :)
<wendar> are there other actions to review, before we move on to the specific proposals?
<fagan> ive got nothign
<fagan> *nothing
<wendar> okay
<wendar> [TOPIC] Proposal Review - Suspended Sentence
<MootBot> New Topic:  Proposal Review - Suspended Sentence
<wendar> [LINK] https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu-app-review-board/+bug/675033
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu-app-review-board/+bug/675033
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 675033 in Ubuntu Application Review Board "Application Review Request: Suspended Sentence 1.0.1" [Undecided,New]
<wendar> stgraber: you were following up on this one, what's the current status of the application?
<stgraber> I did the review yesterday, packaging looks good, left a comment in the bug but nothing major
<stgraber> as far as I'm concerned, the package is fine
<wendar> are we ready to vote on it?
 * fagan has a quick look over for a sec
<statik> i'm ready
<stgraber> yep
<fagan> yep
<wendar> [VOTE] To approve Suspended Sentence
<MootBot> Please vote on:  To approve Suspended Sentence.
<MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
<MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
<wendar> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from wendar. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
<fagan> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from fagan. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2
<stgraber> +1
<statik> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from stgraber. 3 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 3
<MootBot> +1 received from statik. 4 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 4
<wendar> [ENDVOTE]
<MootBot> Final result is 4 for, 0 against. 0 abstained. Total: 4
<wendar> great
<fagan> yep good
<wendar> stgraber: you'll be following up with the developer?
<stgraber> yep
<wendar> cool
<wendar> [TOPIC] Proposal Review - PyTask
<MootBot> New Topic:  Proposal Review - PyTask
<wendar> [LINK] https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu-app-review-board/+bug/684341
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu-app-review-board/+bug/684341
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 684341 in Ubuntu Application Review Board "Application Review Request: Pytask 10.12.3" [Undecided,In progress]
<statik> There has been no progress on this and its entirely my fault
<fagan> I had a good look over the code and its all good on the front
<wendar> there was a Quickly bug blocking release last time, but that shouldn't necessarily block us from approving the app
<statik> I haven't managed to carefully review the packaging on this one yet as I had promised to do last time
<fagan> well id be happy to vote on it now since its just the quickly bug
<fagan> can we have a quick look over it and see if anything sticks out?
<statik> sure
<fagan> nothing is jumping out at me
<fagan> other than the /opt thing
<wendar> does it install in /opt now?
<fagan> wendar: well thats a quickly bug that didrocks is working on
<fagan> im not sure if its fixed yet
<wendar> rickspencer3 says it's fixed, but may not have gone through SRU yet
<wendar> checking with mterry now
<statik> there's also some small things like invalid email address in changelog
<fagan> ah thats it then
<statik> what did we decide about manpages, required or not required?
<wendar> that's the quickly bug, I mean, not the /opt install
<wendar> manpages are not required
<fagan> then I cant really see anything stopping voting
<wendar> some form of user help is desirable, but in App is fine
<fagan> we can get the developer to fix the email thing
<wendar> [LINK] https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/quickly-widgets/+bug/638149
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/quickly-widgets/+bug/638149
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 638149 in quickly-widgets (Ubuntu Maverick) "IntegerFilterBox crashes Python quite thoroughly" [Undecided,Fix committed]
<wendar> That's the quickly bug
<wendar> How about voting now, and say release is pending the SRU of the Quickly fix, and verification that the package installs in /opt?
<fagan> oh is that going to be a SRU?
<fagan> wendar: yeah that seems o k
<fagan> *ok
<wendar> yes, and until the SRU goes through, Pytask will crash
<fagan> we can vote for it and hold until the SRU
<statik> I think it's going to be tough to do conditional votes
<statik> My vote would be -1 as long as the version in the PPA has problems
<wendar> as in, it's better to make the vote a final approval, and the app instantly goes into the repo after that?
<statik> thats my preference, yes
<wendar> that does give us a sane review point to make sure the conditions were met
<statik> because if a new version is uploaded it needs at least a trivial re-review
<wendar> yes
<statik> and from what I understand we are voting on a specific version
<wendar> others thoughts?
<statik> I feel bad I didn't manage to get in touch last week with the developer, the remaining issues seem easily solved but do need a new upload
<wendar> (to a certain extent we're deciding on our process here, this is something to add to the information page)
<fagan> well I suppose we should wait for the quickly-widgets SRU
<fagan> rather than have to do a rereview later
<wendar> stgraber: thoughts on making voting a "final say"?
<statik> and I need to ask the developer to do a new upload fixing things so they install in /opt, fixing the copyright file, and fixing the email address in changelog (and possibly other things, i've only done a superficial review to so far)
<statik> i will be sure to get in touch with the developer today or tomorrow to offer encouragement and get these things fixed
<fagan> well id presume that rick and mterry would be helping with this one
<wendar> statik: sounds good
<fagan> so he'll have a good bit of help
<statik> cool
<wendar> on to the next one?
<wendar> [TOPIC] Proposal Review - SIR
<fagan> sure we have loads of time
<MootBot> New Topic:  Proposal Review - SIR
<wendar> [LINK] https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu-app-review-board/+bug/644066
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu-app-review-board/+bug/644066
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 644066 in Ubuntu Application Review Board "Application Review Request: SIR 2.1" [Undecided,In progress]
<wendar> this one is on my plate
<wendar> It's in a similar state, it needs a new PPA upload
<wendar> I have resolved all the packaging issues in a patch, but only got the developer the final patch yesterday, so he hasn't had time to process and reupload.
<fagan> well that seems ok
<wendar> sticking with "voting as the final say", we're not ready to vote on it yet
<wendar> but, by next meeting it should be fine to go through
<fagan> yeah
<statik> cool. wendar, would you be willing to forward me the patch so I could learn from what you did?
<wendar> statik: it's linked in the ticket
 * statik should learn to read
<wendar> pretty small changes, mostly just packaging fixes and a quilt patch to modify the install locations in the source
<fagan> there is a lot of code to review there anyway
<wendar> statik: (the second patch, rather than the first patch, because it uses quilt)
<wendar> fagan: yes
<wendar> [TOPIC] Proposal Review - simple-stopwatch
<MootBot> New Topic:  Proposal Review - simple-stopwatch
<wendar> [LINK] https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu-app-review-board/+bug/665543
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu-app-review-board/+bug/665543
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 665543 in Ubuntu Application Review Board "Application Review Request: simple-stopwatch 0.1.2" [Undecided,New]
<wendar> ajmitch took this one, and isn't at the meeting today
<fagan> where is the code for this one?
<wendar> I don't see any progress on it in the ticket
<wendar> [LINK] https://launchpad.net/~stefano-palazzo/+archive/stefano-testing
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://launchpad.net/~stefano-palazzo/+archive/stefano-testing
<fagan> well the package is there but where is the code repo?
<fagan> it doesnt seem to be on launchpad
<statik> is having a code repo a requirement?
<fagan> well id like to have a look at the code to see what its doing
<stgraber> fagan: can't you take the .orig.tar.gz ?
<fagan> ah forgot about doing that
<fagan> its just a pain
<statik> oh yes, i totally agree we should look at the code
<fagan> could we add that to the wiki?
<stgraber> well, I don't think we can make having a bzr branch on LP a requirement. Though we can probably say that the .orig.tar.gz should come from somewhere (either an upstream tarball or a branch)
<wendar> fagan: add a requirement for having some way to look at the code? yes
<fagan> well it doesnt have to be on launchpad
<stgraber> well, with how PPA work, you always have a way to look at the code as it's impossible to do binary uploads
<fagan> like I wouldnt mind if it was a hosted git repo or a google code svn repo or something
<stgraber> it'd just be great to ask that the .orig.tar.gz comes from some upstream website or from a branch hosted somewhere (LP, github, ...)
<wendar> maybe discuss that on the mailing list?
<wendar> since it's an added requirement?
<fagan> yeah thats a good idea
<stgraber> yep
<fagan> wendar: would it be something that would need TB approval?
<fagan> or is process stuff our domain?
<wendar> fagan: no, we're free to add extra requirements, it's just relaxing their requirements we need approval for
<stgraber> adding a criteria probably doesn't need TB approval, removing one does though (at least it's my understanding)
<stgraber> well, whatever wendar said ;)
<wendar> yah, same thing
<fagan> ok thats cool then
<fagan> just thought I should ask
<statik> I don't think we should impose requirements on an app that they publish a branch, although it's fine to suggest it as a good practice. the requirement should just be that it's open source, i.e. no binary blobs (like PDFs) in the orig.tar.gz
<stgraber> I've got to rush to another meeting (sorry for that). Just before that, I'm currently looking at Suspended Sentence and was wondering if we had any criteria for the version number to use in the extras repo ?
<fagan> statik: well we could add a note or something to the end of the wiki saying adding the code to a repo would be good
<stgraber> current version number is 1.0.1-0extras1~ppa3
<wendar> the open source requirement is already there, so it may be a matter of explaining what that means
<wendar> stgraber why "0extras1"?
<statik> fagan: yep, no objection to making recommendations but I would be troubled if we rejected an app where the developer chose not to publish a branch
<wendar> shouldn't that be "0ubuntu1"?
<wendar> we don't do "0universe1"
<stgraber> wendar: I don't know, that's what Stefano used :)
<wendar> and I would think drop the ~ppa before release
<fagan> statik: oh no I wouldnt really support rejecting anything for not adding their repo to the bug report
<wendar> stgraber: yes, SIR used "0maverick1"
<wendar> but, I do think we should stick to standard naming there
<stgraber> I'm find with whatever we use as long as it's consistent
<stgraber> and so far, I couldn't find any consistency :)
<fagan> yeah im with stgraber here
<fagan> :)
<statik> me too
<stgraber> daily-journal (currently in extras) uses <version>+newapps7
<stgraber> which I found quite weird
<fagan> yeah that is a little strange
<statik> stgraber: is that a commercial app?
<wendar> agreed, that's just strange
<stgraber> statik: don't know, that's the only thing currently in extras.ubuntu.com (which we didn't approve, AFAIK)
<wendar> seems sensible to stick with the REVU standards there, until we have some compelling reason to change it
<statik> how curious
<fagan> wasnt that a test upload?
<stgraber> well, if it was a test upload I'd think it should have been removed before being publicly accessible :)
<fagan> ill look into it and see what it is
<wendar> will note that as an action item for next meeting
<wendar> final proposal
<stgraber> as we don't allow extras packages that are in the distro, it doesn't make sense to use the -0ubuntu1 version number (where 0 is debian version and 1 is ubuntu version)
<wendar> [TOPIC] Proposal Review - 4dtris
<MootBot> New Topic:  Proposal Review - 4dtris
<wendar> [LINK] https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu-app-review-board/+bug/691347
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu-app-review-board/+bug/691347
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 691347 in Ubuntu Application Review Board "Application Review Request: 4dtris 0.3.2 " [Undecided,New]
<wendar> brand new, so no action now
<stgraber> anyway, got ro run, sorry guys
<wendar> but fagan has agreed to adopt it
<wendar> stgraber: me too in 5 mins
<wendar> stgraber: thanks!
<fagan> this one is the new one?
<wendar> yes, it just came in on the 16th
<fagan> yeah ill take that
<wendar> thanks!
<fagan> ill start on it tomorrow
<wendar> [TOPIC] Rotating meeting chair
<MootBot> New Topic:  Rotating meeting chair
<fagan> yeah id say rotating chair is good
<wendar> I added this item to the agenda, it's something the TechBoard does, rotating who chairs the meeting
<statik> I'm in favor of rotating chair
<fagan> we could talk about this on the mailing list since we dont have everyone
<wendar> so far the responsibility seems to include: reminding people about the meeting, pinging them when the meeting is set to start, and entering the mootbot items for the meeting
<statik> probably building the agenda page too
<wendar> fagan: yes, good idea, since not everyone is here yet
<wendar> uh, change "yet" to "this week"
<wendar> that's all I have, any further comments, questions, etc?
<fagan> nope good meeting
<statik> thanks for organizing this wendar
<fagan> yeah thanks wendar
<wendar> that's a wrap, thanks all!
<wendar> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 13:02.
<statik> i'm excited to see how it goes with getting suspended sentence published
<fagan> yeah glad to see it getting started
<wendar> yes, nice to get one moving out the door
<fagan> bye all :)
 * fagan goes back to buffy the vampire slayer :P
<tumbleweed> statik: heh, yeah, thanks guys. Nice to have the first approval :P
<tumbleweed> (although I'm not the target market)
<statik> tumbleweed: thanks for priming the pump :)
<leoquant> !schedule
<ubottu> Ubuntu releases a new version every 6 months. Each version is supported for 18 months to 5 years. More info at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Releases & http://wiki.ubuntu.com/TimeBasedReleases
<sense> !agenda
<sense> ?
<sense> http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar
<UndiFineD> \o/
<sense> o/
<hajour> \o/
<Ronnie> \o/
<leoquant> o/
<RawChid> _o_
 * UndiFineD paints the room orange
<leoquant> czajkowski, do we have a meeting?
<nhandler> czajkowski has been traveling and is idle almost 6 hours. It doesn't look like she is around
<sense> czajkowski: http://twitter.com/#!/czajkowski/status/17324307415834624
<sense> whoops
<sense> leoquant: http://twitter.com/#!/czajkowski/status/17324307415834624
<leoquant> thx sense
<paultag> Sorry I'm late
<nhandler> paultag: You haven't missed anything
<paultag> great :)
<paultag> thanks for the ping nhandler
<paultag> Is anyone chairing?
<UndiFineD> Qapla'
<sense> leogg, itnet7, popey: ping
<paultag> Shucks. I'm just going to start it, and move the vote to the mailing list.
<leogg> I'm over here! o/
<paultag> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 15:09. The chair is paultag.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<paultag> leogg: :)
<paultag> [TOPIC] DutchTeam Re-Approval
<MootBot> New Topic:  DutchTeam Re-Approval
<paultag> Fantastic, who's here :)
<Gotiniens> I
<Ronnie> \o/
<JanC> o/
<leoquant> o/
<UndiFineD> \o/
 * sense is the LoCo Contact here.
 * UndiFineD paints the room orange
<hajour> 0/
<paultag> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DutchTeamApprovalApplication
 * Gotiniens adds some red white blue to the room
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DutchTeamApprovalApplication
<paultag> [LINK] http://ubuntu-nl.org/
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://ubuntu-nl.org/
<paultag> [LINK] https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-nl
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-nl
<paultag> Great! :)
<paultag> sense: So, let's hear a bit about your team
<sense> paultag: alright
<sense> Ubuntu Nederland is a LoCo with history. We started in 2004 as a small community of Dutch meeting on the internet, and soon in 'real life'.
<sense> We've grown to a large community that manifests itself mostly on the internet, with a forum of 22000 members, and organise a few activities every year.
<sense> The largest group is the forum, which is the support and chat forum for all Dutch speaking Ubuntu users.
<paultag> Great!
<sense> We offer support on IRC, and on a mailing list as well.
<paultag> sense: I see you do Translation work, can you talk a bit about that?
<sense> Due to the fact that Dutch is not bound to one country, and due to historical reasons, the translation team is a part of the Dutch Ubuntu community, but not as much a structural part of the LoCo. However, there are no separate communities.
<sense> The translators are working together with Debian and GNOME translators.
<sense> They organise real life or digital sprints for every release.
<sense> Since the Dutch translations in Compiz were orphaned they are working on that as well.
<paultag> sense: do you know offhand what percent is translated?
<sense> paultag: I can look that up real quick on Launchpad.
<sense> but we're doing pretty well
<leogg> sense: how about meetings? do you have regular meetings on IRC or IRL?
<paultag> sense: it's OK, no need to look it up :)
<UndiFineD> http://wiki.ubuntu-nl.org/community/Vertaalteam/Status
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://wiki.ubuntu-nl.org/community/Vertaalteam/Status
<sense> NB: Vertaal is Dutch for translate
<paultag> thanks UndiFineD :)
<sense> Ubuntu Nederland is currently undergoing a process of reorganisation. Our governance is very unstructured. We do, however, have monthly IRC meetings that are open to everyone.
<sense> There is no formalised decision-making process active, but we're working on that.
<sense> The new governance structure should be adopted in January 2011.
<sense> To discuss this we have a real-life meeting at 16 January.
<leogg> sense: nice!
<hajour> great
<paultag> sense: How are your team reports?
<paultag> I really like the "ledenkaart" -- Is that code Open Sourced?
<sense> paultag: We have slowly been starting with using team reports, in Dutch. The report of this month (currently being written) is located at <http://wiki.ubuntu-nl.org/community/Meetings/Meeting20101210/VoortgangTeams>.
<Ronnie> the 'ledenkaart' has an old version on launchpad, im working on a new one tough: http://www.allesoverlinux.nl/ubuntu/kaart/ (which is open source)
<paultag> sense: you might want to consider copying them to the ubuntu wiki in the team reporting framework to make sure you get included in the snapshots :)
<paultag> Ronnie: looks great!
<leogg> sense: I don't see any events in 2010?
<sense> leogg: There certainly were events in 2010. Where are they missing?
<sense> paultag: Ronnie is doing a lot of work on making Ubuntu NL's website available on Launchpad.
<sense> amongst other things
<leogg> sense: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DutchTeamApprovalApplication
<JanC> leogg: there is the release party in Ede
<sense> leogg: It must have gone missing. :S I'm sure there used to be a part about the large 10.04 release party in May this year there.
<sense> That was organised in cooperation with HCC!.
<Gotiniens> search for HCC! on that page and you will find it
<nhandler> /5/window balance
<sense> There are events in the Loco Directory, and on releaseparty.eu
<JanC> as well as 2 other release parties listed
<sense> http://releaseparty.eu is the shared website to list releaseparties of Ubuntu BE and Ubuntu NL.
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://releaseparty.eu is the shared website to list releaseparties of Ubuntu BE and Ubuntu NL.
<paultag> Ah, I see it
<paultag> thanks sense :)
<sense> http://loco.ubuntu.com/teams/ubuntu-nl
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://loco.ubuntu.com/teams/ubuntu-nl
<leogg> JanC, sense yep, I can see it now, but they're a bit difficult to find in the application
<sense> Ah, we should have made them more visible.
<paultag> [LINK] http://loco.ubuntu.com/teams/ubuntu-nl/events/history
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://loco.ubuntu.com/teams/ubuntu-nl/events/history
<paultag> sense: good to see you're working with the LD :)
<sense> paultag: Most of the work there is being done by community members who are involved in the events now, I can't do much because my changed Launchpad username broke things in the LD.
<paultag> Ahha
<sense> I don't get the right permissions.
<paultag> OK. Well, I have no more questions. Anyone else?
<leogg> It seems to me that you're a pretty solid team, but you need to work more on meetings and reports
<hajour> new dutch python teacher https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ChrisDruif
<sense> leogg: That is our weakness indeed.
<paultag> Going once!
<leogg> sense: :)
<paultag> Twice!
<paultag> Thrice!
<sense> leogg: : http://sensehofstede.nl/organisatievoorstel-voor-ubuntu-nederland-versie-0-2 aims to solve those things, amongst otherproblems.
<paultag> Alrighty. We'll move the vote to the Mailing List sense, I just filed a bug that you're subscribed to
<sense> paultag: OK, thanks.
<paultag> sense: thank you!
<sense> paultag: The vote will happen on the mailing list?
<paultag> sense: yes, but it will be logged on the bug, you'll see it :)
<sense> ok, great
<paultag> sense: we'll be sure to CC you with stuff you can forward
<RawChid> Can we also subscribe to that bug?
<paultag> Great, any other items for the LoCo Council?
<hajour> new dutch beginners team mwanzo
<paultag> RawChid: it's private, for now. We'll subscribe any other administrators, and we'll release it as public after it's complete :)
<sense> paultag: The agenda is outdated, it still says the next meeting is in november. :)
<paultag> :P
<paultag> Alright, well, I'll shut down this meeting. We can re-open it if someone comes in panic'd :)
<paultag> Thanks, all!
<RawChid> Oke
<paultag> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 15:30.
<leogg> sense: that's *our* weakness... not updating agendas :)
<paultag> thanks, sense, and Ubuntu-NL!
<sense> Thanks everyone for attending and listening.
<leogg> thank you guys!
<sense> you're welcome
<Ronnie> huray for the loco counsil \o/
<hajour> o/
<hajour> \o/
<hajour> hai all
<sense> I'm going offline now, good bye everyone.
#ubuntu-meeting 2010-12-22
<Keybuk> es
<roma> hi
<roma> there
#ubuntu-meeting 2010-12-26
<nhandler> jussi, Pici, tsimpson: Any of you around?
<nhandler> I'll wait until 10 after and then call it. We had a feeling this meeting might cause a problem due to the holidays.
<tsimpson> I'm here
<tsimpson> (just about)
<nhandler> tsimpson: Well, it doesn't look like anyone else is. Want to call the meeting?
<tsimpson> yeah, I don't think anyone will be here anyway
<tsimpson> we only have Pici's item on the agenda, and seeing as he's not here it can probably wait until the next meeting (on the 8th)
<nhandler> Alright, I'll send out an email
#ubuntu-meeting 2011-12-19
 * micahg waves
<Laney> ola
<tumbleweed> hi
<tumbleweed> bdrung_ said he may be late
 * bdrung_ is here
<bdrung> !dmb-ping
<ubottu> bdrung, cody-somerville, persia, Laney, micahg, geser, tumbleweed, stgraber: DMB ping
<stgraber> heya
<Laney> winning
<Laney> no cody I assume?
<Laney> let us go
<Laney> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Mon Dec 19 14:12:42 2011 UTC.  The chair is Laney. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/AlanBell/mootbot.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
<Laney> #topic Review of previous action items
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Review of previous action items
<Laney> [ignoring cody's one]
<Laney> #subtopic micahg to ping all packageset teams to get a description we can use for future changes
<micahg> so, I did start this this time :)
 * Laney got a mail indeed :-)
<micahg> I got the answer back from the bzr packageset, how should we do this?  should we take a quick vote on the criteria for the packageset?
<micahg> or should I propose the criteria to the ML and vote at the next meeting?
<Laney> I guess post to ML and have a confirmation vote next time
<micahg> ok, sounds good
<Laney> sweet
<Laney> did you send them all out or are some left to do?
<micahg> I think the only one that's left was the kernel one (I also didn't send for the mozilla packageset, but having a conversation with oneself is kinda boring :))
<Laney> heh
<Laney> ok, good work
<Laney> #topic Package set application: desktop-extra
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Package set application: desktop-extra
<Laney> jbicha isn't here, but I think we can go on anyway
<Laney> did you see my mail?
<tumbleweed> yup, just read it
<Laney> let me bounce it to devel-permissions to make it public
<micahg> yes
<Laney> #link https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/devel-permissions/2011-December/000315.html
<Laney> WDYT to that list and description then?
<tumbleweed> description works for me
<micahg> yeah, I think that's fine
<tumbleweed> list too
<Laney> bdrung: stgraber: ?
<stgraber> looks good
<bdrung> looks good
<Laney> ok, one second
<Laney> #vote Create desktop-extra packageset with description "Every package that is NOT in ubuntu-desktop, desktop-core or core, but needed for a vanilla GNOME. Vanilla GNOME is defined by upstream in gnome-suites-core, gnome-suites-core-deps, and gnome-apps: http://git.gnome.org/browse/jhbuild/tree/modulesets" and initial packages "abiword accerciser alacarte anjuta caribou cheese clutter ekiga epiphany-browser fonts-cantarell f-spot ...
<meetingology> Please vote on: Create desktop-extra packageset with description "Every package that is NOT in ubuntu-desktop, desktop-core or core, but needed for a vanilla GNOME. Vanilla GNOME is defined by upstream in gnome-suites-core, gnome-suites-core-deps, and gnome-apps: http://git.gnome.org/browse/jhbuild/tree/modulesets" and initial packages "abiword accerciser alacarte anjuta caribou cheese clutter ekiga epiphany-browser fonts-cantarell 
<meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (private votes don't work yet, but when they do it will be by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0 to me)
<Laney> ... gdm ghex gjs gnome-backgrounds gnome-color-manager gnome-contacts gnome-devel-docs gnome-documents gnome-icon-theme-extras gnome-packagekit gnome-scan gnome-shell gnome-sushi gnome-tweak-tool gnome-video-effects gnote gnumeric goffice gthumb gtksourceviewmm gupnp-av gupnp-dlna gupnp-vala java-gnome libchamplain monkey-bubble mutter mx nemiver opal packagekit ptlib rygel seed sound-juicer tomboy tracker" and initial member ...
<Laney> ... ~ubuntu-desktop
<Laney> :-)
<Laney> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from Laney
<micahg> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from micahg
<tumbleweed> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from tumbleweed
<stgraber> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from stgraber
<bdrung> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from bdrung
<Laney> #endvote
<meetingology> Voting ended on: Create desktop-extra packageset with description "Every package that is NOT in ubuntu-desktop, desktop-core or core, but needed for a vanilla GNOME. Vanilla GNOME is defined by upstream in gnome-suites-core, gnome-suites-core-deps, and gnome-apps: http://git.gnome.org/browse/jhbuild/tree/modulesets" and initial packages "abiword accerciser alacarte anjuta caribou cheese clutter ekiga epiphany-browser fonts-cantarell
<meetingology> Votes for:5 Votes against:0 Abstentions:0
<meetingology> Motion carried
<Laney> sweeeeeeet
<Laney> stgraber: can you take the action to create that?
<stgraber> yeah, already started doing it
<Laney> cool
<Laney> #action stgraber to create desktop-extra set
<meetingology> ACTION: stgraber to create desktop-extra set
<bdrung> that was a very long question. ;)
<micahg> I just want to point out, this comes with the expectation that stuff will flow between ubuntu-desktop and desktop-extra as needed
<Laney> yes
<bdrung> micahg: that's implied
<Laney> #topic Ubuntu Core Developer reapplication for Daniel T Chen
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Core Developer reapplication for Daniel T Chen
<Laney> not sure that we need to vote given that he only expired a few days ago
<bdrung> do we really need to vote about such cases?
<stgraber> do I have stuff to move at this point or just create the new package set with the package list we just approved?
<stgraber> I don't think we vote for these usually, just re-activate
<micahg> bdrung: well, I don't want people who apply for desktop-extra to be shocked one day when they can't upload something :)
<Laney> I am curious about why we didn't get an email though
<micahg> stgraber: I've seen quick votes when things expire
<Laney> because I would probably have pingedh im
<tumbleweed> Laney: we don't own core-dev
<micahg> tumbleweed: yes we do :)
<tumbleweed> err I mean we aren't an ad min of it, we own it
<Laney> owner should get such emails too, then?
 * micahg thought owner got mails as well
<stgraber> micahg: yeah, and I've seen a lot of cases where they just send a "oops I forgot to click on the link" and get re-activated without any vote :)
<bdrung> we should just re-activate people if they ask timely
 * tumbleweed hasn't seen any core-dev expiration e-mail
<Laney> indeed
<micahg> stgraber: true :)
<Laney> ok, investigate with LP why we don't get them
<Laney> I don't think we need to vote on this, anyone disagree?
<bdrung> no
<Laney> done
<Laney> #topic AOB
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: AOB
<tumbleweed> we need to kick off restaffing soon
<bdrung> and i don't think that we even need to wait for a meeting
<Laney> ah, indeed
<tumbleweed> Laney and geser expire in mid-feb
<tumbleweed> 6 weeks earlier is 2 jan (which I assume we won't meet on?)
<micahg> well, that's another AOB topic :)
<tumbleweed> ah, there's the page: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CommunityCouncil/Restaffing
<Laney> dear wiki, please load.
<Laney> bah. oh well.
<Laney> call for nominations 4 weeks out, call for votes 2 weeks out?
<tumbleweed> Prepare announce and requirements. (1 day)
<tumbleweed> Optional: Call for nominations. (2 weeks)
<tumbleweed> Optional: Shortlisting by CC. (1 week)
<tumbleweed> Optional: Vote process. (2 weeks)
<tumbleweed> Announcement, necessary implementation. (1 day)
<Laney> ok, got some time then
<stgraber> Shortlisting by CC? isn't supposed to be by the TB in the case of the DMB? (not really sure, these things are usually a bit blurry ;))
<Laney> we didn't bother with that last time
<stgraber> indeed, easier to just not do it ;)
<Laney> the tb said they didn't mind us running it all
<Laney> there is some contention there: the CC extending its icy grasp over this way
<tumbleweed> in that case, we can get away with starting it on jan 16th, but only just
<Laney> I think that technically our UCD delegation comes from them, for example
<Laney> anyway yeah, confirmation can be on feb 13th - works out quite nicely
<stgraber> btw, http://people.canonical.com/~stgraber/package_sets/precise/desktop-extra
<Laney> nice
<Laney> ok, anything else?
<Laney> skipping jan 2nd?
<tumbleweed> works for me, I may not be available then, anyway
<bdrung> depends if there are application in between
<stgraber> I'll be around on the 2nd (working) but I'm fine with us skipping it
<bdrung> i am fine with it if we don't accumulate too many applications
<micahg> I should be around
<bdrung> i should be around
<micahg> well, we should have the packageset descriptions to vote on, but that could wait I guess
<tumbleweed> so see who turns up?
<bdrung> yes
<bdrung> yes
<Laney> ok
<Laney> i'll probably be around
<Laney> anything else?
<tumbleweed> next chair? still cody :P
<Laney> #topic chair for next meeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: chair for next meeting
<bdrung> regarding the restaffing
<Laney> cody (micah)
<Laney> bdrung: yes?
<bdrung> i will expire in nearly one year, but i would be only one person. i think it impractical to setup a vote only for me.
<bdrung> it would make more sense to group the votes
<micahg> bdrung: we could just extend your membership to 02/2013
<bdrung> that would work for me
<micahg> since your membership would expire in nov
<Laney> mmm, potentially losing 6/8 of the team at once
<Laney> oh no, not you and stefano
<Laney> yeah that wfm
<Laney> ask the tb?
<bdrung> a optimal solution would be to have four members selected every year
<micahg> well, other boards usually restaff almost all at the same time
<Laney> maybe we can add the new people until 2013-09/10 and make micahg and tumbleweed have the same expiration date
 * micahg would prefer it being referred to as membership expiration :P
<tumbleweed> heh
 * Laney puts the uzi away
<bdrung> :)
<Laney> #action bdrung to talk to the TB about harmonising DMB members' expiration dates for easier restaffing
<meetingology> ACTION: bdrung to talk to the TB about harmonising DMB members' expiration dates for easier restaffing
<Laney> :-)
<tumbleweed> Laney: that'd be neat, yes
<Laney> great
<Laney> thanks all
 * Laney gives you all an orange
<Laney> #endmeeting
 * bdrung sees the action item and tries to take the uzi.
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Mon Dec 19 14:48:51 2011 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2011/ubuntu-meeting.2011-12-19-14.12.moin.txt
<micahg> thanks Laney
<Laney> easy meetings are fun to chair
<roadmr> hello everyone!
<brendand> hi
<roadmr> so it's time for your weekly friendly Ubuntu Friendly meeting!
<roadmr> let's get this show on the road
<roadmr> #startmeeting Ubuntu Friendly
<meetingology> Meeting started Mon Dec 19 16:01:54 2011 UTC.  The chair is roadmr. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/AlanBell/mootbot.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Ubuntu Friendly Meeting | Current topic:
<roadmr> Hi everyone, welcome to the Ubuntu Friendly meeting!
<roadmr> Today we have the following topics to talk about:
<roadmr> Checkbox (Ubuntu Friendly, System Testing) new version available in -proposed, you can help with testing!
<roadmr> Any Other Business
<roadmr> As usual, you're welcome to participate, indicate you want to speak by raising your hand (o/). Don't forget to also signal when you're done using ..
<roadmr> Let's get started!
<roadmr> [TOPIC] Checkbox (Ubuntu Friendly, System Testing) new version available in -proposed, you can help with testing! (brendand)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Ubuntu Friendly Meeting | Current topic:  Checkbox (Ubuntu Friendly, System Testing) new version available in -proposed, you can help with testing! (brendand)
<roadmr> brendand, all yours
<brendand> After the Ubuntu Friendly programme was launched along with Oneiric back in October we got a lot of feedback about pain points for users of the Checkbox system testing tool
<brendand> We of course seek to improve Checkbox in whatever way we can, so many of these issues have been addressed and will be resolved in Precise
<brendand> For some of the issues, we felt the problem was significant enough that it was worth making the effort to include them in the Oneiric version of Checkbox via an SRU
<brendand> (Stable Release Update)
<brendand> So we proposed a bunch of fixes and now they are available in the next version of the Checkbox package in Oneiric. This version is still at the 'verification' phase where the fixes need to be tested to make sure they work and don't break anything else
<brendand> We need your help to do this
<brendand> There are three bugs left to verify:
<brendand> https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/862322
<brendand> https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/877752
<brendand> https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/887049
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 862322 in checkbox (Ubuntu Oneiric) "bluetooth/detect shouldn't run on a system with no Bluetooth device" [Undecided,Fix committed]
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 877752 in checkbox (Ubuntu Oneiric) "connect_wireless can unintentionally choose a non-wireless connection to connect to" [Undecided,Fix committed]
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 887049 in checkbox (Ubuntu Oneiric) "USB HDD verification seems to be working, yet it's marked as "No"" [Undecided,Fix committed]
<brendand> To test these fixes, you should enable the -proposed pocket in your sources.list. This can be done in the settings of update-manager
<brendand> Then run 'apt-get install checkbox'
<brendand> and carry out the test described in the bug to confirm the fix is working. If it is then change the 'verification-needed' tag to 'verification-done'
<brendand> If not then set it to 'verification-failed' (although it would be worth commenting to explain what failure you're seeing before doing this)
<brendand> When you're done with this, you can disable -proposed, otherwise you might get some unwanted updates
<brendand> Any volunteers?
<brendand> ...
<roadmr> o/
<brendand> roadmr - aren't you the chair?
 * roadmr gives roadmr the go-ahead
<roadmr> heh yes!
<roadmr> brendand: do you think it'd be worthwhile sending this to the UF mailing list?
<brendand> roadmr - yes
<roadmr> ok, great. Also, do you know if there's like a deadline for bug verification, and if so, what happens once we hit the deadline?
<brendand> roadmr - i would check on ubuntu-release if there is a deadline. i know there is for kernel bugs, but otherwise i'm not sure
<brendand> roadmr - if there is then i assume the change which fixes the bug would be reverted
<brendand> (this is all going on my Kernel SRU knowledge)
<roadmr> brendand: ok, thanks, just something to keep in mind.
<roadmr> so anyone else on the checkbox SRU verification topic?
 * roadmr looks for raised hands
<roadmr> nobody? :)
<roadmr> Well then, let's continue with our agenda
<roadmr> Let's move on to AOB.
<roadmr> [TOPIC] Any Other Business
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Ubuntu Friendly Meeting | Current topic:  Any Other Business
<roadmr> Anything you'd like to talk about with the UF team? Now's your chance!
 * roadmr again looks for any more participants
<roadmr> no takers?
<roadmr> oh, me!
<roadmr> I just have one more thing to comment on, we still don't know if we'll have a meeting next Monday (Dec 26th), please check the UF agenda page regularly for an update on this.
<roadmr> ok, last chance, speak now or until the next UF meeting hold your peace
<roadmr> heheh well I tried!
<roadmr> Well I guess this wraps things up for today. Thanks for attending! please remember to help with the Checkbox verification if you can. And remember the mailing list is open to all your UF-related comments and inquiries.
<roadmr> Thanks! have a good day!
<roadmr> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Mon Dec 19 16:22:45 2011 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2011/ubuntu-meeting.2011-12-19-16.01.moin.txt
<jdstrand> hi!
<tyhicks> Hello
<mdeslaur> hi!
<jdstrand> let's get started
<jdstrand> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Mon Dec 19 18:04:23 2011 UTC.  The chair is jdstrand. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/AlanBell/mootbot.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
<jdstrand> The meeting agenda can be found at:
<jdstrand> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/Meeting
<jdstrand> [TOPIC] Announcements
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Announcements
<jdstrand> While the team is off next week, we will be monitoring lists, bugs and email for critical issues.
<jdstrand> [TOPIC] Weekly stand-up report
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Weekly stand-up report
<jdstrand> jjohansen is off this week and next. I wish him well deserved rest :)
<jdstrand> I'll go first
<jdstrand> I've got another short week this week
<jdstrand> and am off Thu and Fri (and like everyone else, next week)
<jdstrand> I'm on community
<jdstrand> I have a couple of pending updates. if I don't get them out today I will likely wait until after the break
<jdstrand> I have some archive admin work and will look into some bugs that have been accumulating if I have time
<jdstrand> that's it from me
<jdstrand> mdeslaur: you're up
<mdeslaur> I've just released some libarchive updates
<mdeslaur> and am currently working on jasper and ghostscript
<mdeslaur> and will also be testing some embargoed backports too this week
<mdeslaur> since jj's off, guess I'm the stu^H^H^Hfortunate to be doing the kernel USN publication
<mdeslaur> and I'm in the happy place
<mdeslaur> that's about it for me!
<mdeslaur> sbeattie: you're up
<sbeattie> I'm in the happy place this week
<sbeattie> I'm planning to poke at my work items and finish up the glibc update I'm working on
<sbeattie> I also need to respond to jj on a couple of apparmor things.
<sbeattie> I've got a short week this week, I'm off wednesday and friday
<sbeattie> That's it for me.
<sbeattie> micahg: poke
<micahg> I've got Mozilla updates this week along with Chromium (time permitting), we're starting the Rapid release migration in Lucid/Maverick as well (announcement to come this week), Chromium updates as well time permitting, short week for me (not sure which day yet)
<micahg> tyhicks: you're up
<tyhicks> I'm in the triage role this week
<tyhicks> I'll be around the entire week
<tyhicks> I plan on getting a t1lib update out today and then primarily focusing on improving eCryptfs testing
<tyhicks> but I'll take another update (tbd) to work off and on
<tyhicks> That's all I've got, jdstrand
<jdstrand> thanks
<jdstrand> [TOPIC] Highlighted packages
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Highlighted packages
<jdstrand> The Ubuntu Security team will highlight some community-supported packages that might be good candidates for updating and or triaging. If you would like to help Ubuntu and not sure where to start, this is a great way to do so.
<jdstrand> See https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/UpdateProcedures for details and if you have any questions, feel free to ask in #ubuntu-security. To find out other ways of helping out, please see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/GettingInvolved.
<jdstrand> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/libsmi.html
<jdstrand> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/wxwidgets2.6.html
<jdstrand> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/libdigest-perl.html
<jdstrand> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/phpgroupware.html
<jdstrand> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/clearsilver.html
<jdstrand> [TOPIC] Miscellaneous and Questions
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Miscellaneous and Questions
<kees> heya. The Chrome folks asked me to see if this was getting any attention: http://rcvalle.com/post/14261796328/more-on-exploiting-glibc-tzfile-read-integer-overflow
<kees> it boils down to two things: glibc malloc has predictable allocation behavior, and some part of the FILE structure doesn't use PTR_MANGLE.
<mdeslaur> kees: it hasn't gotten any attention yet, as I don't think we were aware of it
 * mdeslaur will read
 * sbeattie will, too
<sbeattie> kees: thanks for pointing it out
<kees> it's more about an exploitation technique than a vuln, really.
<jdstrand> yeah, I didn't know about it either
<jdstrand> kees: thanks!
<kees> I'm probably going to send some patches to glibc to further harden the FILE structures.
<kees> but I don't really know what to do about the predictable allocation behavior. that's been a long-time problem.
<mdeslaur> kees: any CVEs been assigned?
<mdeslaur> or is it not actually a flaw?
<kees> mdeslaur: I don't really think it qualifies as a flaw.
<jdstrand> kees: cool. would you mind opening an ubuntu bug when you open the upstream one, so we can track it?
<kees> mdeslaur: it's more of a technique to stabilize the environment during an attack.
<kees> jdstrand: sure!
<mdeslaur> I lack too much context, I'll catch up on it first
<kees> cool, no worries. I don't think it's high priority at all, but I just wanted to point it out.
<jdstrand> kees: thank you for doing so :)
<kees> sure! :)
<jdstrand> Any other questions or items to discuss?
<kees> that was it from me.
<jdstrand> mdeslaur, sbeattie, micahg, tyhicks, kees: thanks!
<jdstrand> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Mon Dec 19 18:26:00 2011 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2011/ubuntu-meeting.2011-12-19-18.04.moin.txt
<mdeslaur> thanks jdstrand
<tyhicks> thanks!
<sbeattie> jdstrand: thanks
#ubuntu-meeting 2011-12-20
<zul> hi so who is here for the ubuntu-server team meeting today?
<zul> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Tue Dec 20 16:00:18 2011 UTC.  The chair is zul. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/AlanBell/mootbot.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
<zul> so this is going to be a quick meeting today since alot of people are on christmas break like RoAkSoAx
<adam_g> o/
<zul> [TOPIC] Review ACTION points from previous meeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Review ACTION points from previous meeting
<smoser> o/
<smoser> all hail zul.
<zul> was there any action points from the last meeting?
<zul> if not ill move on to the next topic
<zul> [TOPIC] Precise Development
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Precise Development
<RoAkSoAx> o/
<zul> Daviey is on holiday but here is a link to the triaged bugs for precise
<zul> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/Meeting
<zul> and the burn down chart for http://status.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-precise/ubuntu-server.html
<zul> any questions or comments?
<utlemming> yeah, that burn-down doesn't look like a burn-down at all
<zul> heh.dont shoot the messenger
<zul> [TOPIC] Ubuntu Server Team Events
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Server Team Events
<zul> christmas is coming and i dont think there are any other events
<zul> oscon cfp closes jan 12 so get your papers if you want to present something at oscon
<zul> [TOPIC] Weekly Updates & Questions for the QA Team (hggdh)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Weekly Updates & Questions for the QA Team (hggdh)
<utlemming> what about Winter Solstis?
<zul> im not a pagan ;)
<zul> hggdh: around or on vacation?
<zul> im guessing vacation
<zul> next is
<zul> [TOPIC] Weekly Updates & Questions for the Kernel Team (smb)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Weekly Updates & Questions for the Kernel Team (smb)
<zul> smb around?
<zul> im guessing vacation as well
<zul> [TOPIC] Weekly Updates & Questions regarding Ubuntu ARM Server (NCommander)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Weekly Updates & Questions regarding Ubuntu ARM Server (NCommander)
<zul> anyone got any arm updates
<zul> if not they they are probably on vacation as well
<zul> [TOPIC] Weekly Updates & Questions from the Ubuntu Community
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Weekly Updates & Questions from the Ubuntu Community
<zul> anything they want to raise in the communtiy since we have an awesomeo communtiy
<zul> if not i propose we have the next meeting on jan 3, 2012 because christmas break is next week
<zul> does that sound good to people?
<arosales> zul: sounds good. Thanks for moderating this meeting :-)
<zul> thanks!
<zul> good meeting
<zul> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Tue Dec 20 16:11:11 2011 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2011/ubuntu-meeting.2011-12-20-16.00.moin.txt
<ppisati> o/
<jsalisbury> Roll Call for Ubuntu Kernel Weekly Status Meeting
<cking> o/
<apw> o/
<kamal> o/
<jsalisbury> #startmeeting
<jsalisbury> ##
<jsalisbury> ## This is the Ubuntu Kernel Team weekly status meeting.
<jsalisbury> ##
<jsalisbury> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/Meeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Tue Dec 20 17:00:18 2011 UTC.  The chair is jsalisbury. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/AlanBell/mootbot.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
<jsalisbury> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/ReleaseStatus/Precise
<jsalisbury> # Meeting Etiquette
<jsalisbury> #
<jsalisbury> # NOTE: '..' indicates that you are finished with your input.
<jsalisbury> #       'o/' indicates you have something to add (please wait until you are recognized)
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] ARM Status (ppisati)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: ARM Status (ppisati)
<ppisati> P/omap4: a new kernel (3.2.0-1403.3) based off 3.2-rc5 (Ubuntu-3.2.0-4.10)
<ppisati> has been released.
<ppisati> SRU kernels: besides natty/omap4 and lucid/imx51 finally getting the
<ppisati> "large mmap()" fix, there's nothing else to report.
<ppisati> ..
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] Release Metrics and Incoming Bugs (jsalisbury)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Release Metrics and Incoming Bugs (jsalisbury)
<jsalisbury> Release metrics and incomming bug data can be reviewed at the following link:
<jsalisbury> [LINK] http://people.canonical.com/~kernel/reports/kt-meeting.txt
<jsalisbury> ..
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] Milestone Targeted Work Items (ogasawara)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Milestone Targeted Work Items (ogasawara)
<jsalisbury> I'll provide a status for ogasawara.
<jsalisbury> Status: Work Items
<jsalisbury> ==================
<jsalisbury> [LINK] http://status.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-precise/canonical-kernel-team-precise-alpha-2.html
<jsalisbury> || apw        || hardware-p-kernel-boot                || 1 work item  ||
<jsalisbury> ||            || hardware-p-kernel-config-review       || 7 work items ||
<jsalisbury> ||            || hardware-p-kernel-delta-review        || 4 work items ||
<jsalisbury> ||            || foundations-p-ipv6                    || 1 work item  ||
<jsalisbury> || cking      || hardware-p-kernel-delta-review        || 1 work item  ||
<jsalisbury> || jsalisbury || other-p-bug-workflows                 || 1 work item  ||
<jsalisbury> || ogasawara  || hardware-p-kernel-version-and-flavors || 1 work item  ||
<jsalisbury> ||            || hardware-p-kernel-config-review       || 10 work items||
<jsalisbury> || tgardner   || hardware-p-kernel-delta-review        || 1 work item  ||
<jsalisbury> If your name is in the above table, please review your Alpha-2 work
<jsalisbury> items.  Note that Alpha-2 is Thurs Feb 2.
<jsalisbury> ..
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] Blueprint: hardware-p-kernel-power-management (cking)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Blueprint: hardware-p-kernel-power-management (cking)
<cking>  * Write eventstat to accurately monitor and log wakeup events
<cking>    git://kernel.ubuntu.com/cking/eventstat.git and
<cking>    https://launchpad.net/~colin-king/+archive/powermanagement
<cking>  * HDD busy results:
<cking>    http://zinc.canonical.com/~cking/power-benchmarking/hdd-wakeups
<cking>  * Wakeup Event results:
<cking>    http://zinc.canonical.com/~cking/power-benchmarking/events
<cking>  * UEFI vs BIOS power management testing:
<cking>    http://zinc.canonical.com/~cking/power-benchmarking/legacy-bios-vs-uefi-firmware
<cking> ..
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] Status: Precise Development Kernel (ogasawara)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Status: Precise Development Kernel (ogasawara)
<jsalisbury> Status: Precise Development Kernel
<jsalisbury> ==================================
<jsalisbury> We've recently uploaded the 3.2.0-5.11 and 3.2.0-6.12 Ubuntu kernels.
<jsalisbury> Notable changes in these uploads include rebasing to v3.2-rc6, setting
<jsalisbury> DEFAULT_MMAP_MIN_ADDR=32k on arm, adding overlayfs and veth to -virtual,
<jsalisbury> and misc config updates.  Please test and let us know your results.
<jsalisbury> Important Upcoming Dates:
<jsalisbury>  * Thurs Feb 2 - Alpha 2 (~7 weeks)
<jsalisbury> ..
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] Status: CVE's (apw)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Status: CVE's (apw)
<apw> [LINK] http://people.canonical.com/~kernel/cve/pkg/CVE-linux.txt
<apw>  
<apw> Currently open CVEs for each supported branch:
<apw>  
<apw> || Package                                  || Open      ||
<apw> ||                                          ||           ||
<apw> || linux Hardy                              ||   13 (+3) ||
<apw> || linux Lucid                              ||   10 (+3) ||
<apw> || linux Maverick                           ||   10 (+3) ||
<apw> || linux Natty                              ||   10 (+3) ||
<apw> || linux Oneiric                            ||    8 (+3) ||
<apw> || linux Precise                            ||    8 (+3) ||
<apw> || linux-ec2 Lucid                          ||   10 (+3) ||
<apw> || linux-fsl-imx51 Lucid                    ||   11 (+4) ||
<apw> || linux-mvl-dove Lucid                     ||   10 (+3) ||
<apw> || linux-mvl-dove Maverick                  ||   10 (+3) ||
<apw> || linux-ti-omap4 Maverick                  ||   11 (+4) ||
<apw> || linux-ti-omap4 Natty                     ||   10 (+3) ||
<apw> || linux-ti-omap4 Oneiric                   ||    8 (+3) ||
<apw> || linux-ti-omap4 Precise                   ||    8 (+3) ||
<apw> || linux-lts-backport-maverick Lucid        ||   10 (+3) ||
<apw> || linux-lts-backport-natty Lucid           ||   10 (+3) ||
<apw> || linux-lts-backport-oneiric Lucid         ||    8 (+3) ||
<apw>  
<apw> We have had a five new CVEs this week.  Two have been resolved via
<apw> upstream stable.  The remainder do not yet have any upstream fixes.
<apw> We continue to have one CVE with fix outstanding.
<apw>  
<apw> ..
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] Status: Stable, Security, and Bugfix Kernel Updates - Oneiric/Natty/Maverick/Lucid/Hardy (bjf/herton)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Status: Stable, Security, and Bugfix Kernel Updates - Oneiric/Natty/Maverick/Lucid/Hardy (bjf/herton)
<jsalisbury> No update this week.
<jsalisbury> ..
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] Open Discussion or Questions? Raise your hand to be recognized (o/)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Open Discussion or Questions? Raise your hand to be recognized (o/)
<apw> o/
<jsalisbury> apw, go ahead
<apw> just a question of when is the next meeting?
<apw> ..
<jsalisbury> The next meeting will be January 3rd.
<jsalisbury> ..
<apw> as that misses one week, that should be announced probabally, as in cancelling the 27th
<apw> ..
<jsalisbury> I'll send out a notice.  Unless folks think we should still have a meeting on the 27th?
<jsalisbury> ..
<apw> no, thats great, cancel it
<jsalisbury> will, do.
<jsalisbury> ..
<jsalisbury> Any other open comments?
<jsalisbury> Great, have a safe and happy holidays everyone!
<jsalisbury> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Tue Dec 20 17:09:13 2011 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2011/ubuntu-meeting.2011-12-20-17.00.moin.txt
<kamal> thanks jsalisbury.  happy holidays folks!  :-)
<apw> holiday fun .... :)
<czajkowski> evening folks
<MrChrisDruif> Aloha
<czajkowski> SergioMeneses: itnet7 greg-g ping
<MrChrisDruif> LoCo meeting I see?
<czajkowski> yup
<czajkowski> shall give it another few mins
<MrChrisDruif> Fine by me, I'll just lurk
<SergioMeneses> I'm here
<czajkowski> SergioMeneses: hi
<czajkowski> just waiting on the others
<SergioMeneses> hi all
<SergioMeneses> czajkowski, don't worry
<czajkowski> anyone here from Montenegro  loco ?
<itnet7> Hey there everyone!
<paultag> howdy, friends!
<paultag> just here to see how things are :)
<czajkowski> itnet7: ello
<itnet7> :-) awesome paultag !
<czajkowski> so 3 here from the LC so far
<MrChrisDruif> paultag o/
<czajkowski> no sign of the Montenegro team for approval
<SergioMeneses> paultag, hi
<paultag> howdy!
<SergioMeneses> tp0x45 is not here
<czajkowski> indeed
<czajkowski> ok well no point in keeping folks here so if there is a no show from the rest of the LC or the Montenegro loco
<czajkowski> SergioMeneses: itnet7 thanks for coming.
<SergioMeneses> sure... no problem
<MrChrisDruif> Meeting is off?
<czajkowski> MrChrisDruif: yes as I said no point in keeping folks here when we don't have the full council or the loco team
<MrChrisDruif> Alright, it's cool =)
#ubuntu-meeting 2011-12-21
<TiMiDo> hey i have a question if i want to become an ubuntu member i need to put my self on the wiki and wait for next month?
<philipballew> TiMiDo, they have meeting regularly. There is a link that says it all, however you need a wiki. do you already have one?
<philipballew> also, I'd say this channel is not really gonna give you many quick answers here. its a official channel for meetings.
<TiMiDo> i already have one
<TiMiDo> this is my wiki
<philipballew> pm it to me
<philipballew> ill look at it for you
<TiMiDo> ok thank you
<alourie> hello
<phillw> hiyas alourie :)
<alourie> hi phillw
<alourie> washat the meeting is happening as planned
<gema> hi
<gema> I am ready
<gema> #startmeeting QA Meeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Wed Dec 21 17:02:01 2011 UTC.  The chair is gema. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/AlanBell/mootbot.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | QA Meeting Meeting | Current topic:
<gema> who is with us today?
<alourie> o/
<nuclearbob> I am
<phillw> o/
<alourie> I'll try to ping roignac
<gema> ok, it sounds like we have many people already on holidays
<gema> let's get started then
<gema> #topic Previous Actions
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | QA Meeting Meeting | Current topic:  Previous Actions
<gema> we had an action on patrick but he is not available today, so I will postpone it again!
<gema> #action patrickmw to publish a list of launchpad projects that conform our automated testing in jenkins
<meetingology> ACTION: patrickmw to publish a list of launchpad projects that conform our automated testing in jenkins
<gema> ACTION: gema to talk to hggdh about some jenkins training for the community
<gema> I spoke to hggdh and he has organised a training session in one developer event that is happening past mid January
<gema> I have asked him to send an email to the list but he was going on holidays, so I guess that'll happen next year
<gema> ACTION: gema to move the standard sru testing blueprint to the end
<alourie> yea!!
<gema> I did that on the agenda
<gema> anything I am missing, anyone?
<alourie> if we could contribute to anything jenkins oriented, would be great
<gema> yep, let me get to that later
<alourie> k
<gema> #topic Blueprints Update Precise
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | QA Meeting Meeting | Current topic:  Blueprints Update Precise
<gema> #subtopic https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/other-p-builds-smoke-testing
<gema> I have started reviewing the code of our ISO smoke tests and will have some feedback early in January.
<gema> I am not sure who to send the feedback to, but will figure it out
<alourie> o/
<gema> alourie: go ahead
<alourie> I think that generic stuff like that should go to the list anyway
<alourie> s/list/maillist
<gema> yes, I can copy the list about it, but I don't know who is responsible to fix it
<alourie> and then other channels if necessary
<alourie> ..
<alourie> ah
<alourie> ok
<gema> I will definitely copy ubuntu-qa whenever I send it
<alourie> great
<alourie> thank you
<gema> no problem
<roignac> o/
<gema> roignac: go ahead
<roignac> you should also include ubuntu-server-iso-testing-dev@lists.launchpad.net
<roignac> this is a maillist of Ubuntu Server Iso Testing Developers
<gema> ahh, so those are the people responsible for it, you reckon?
<gema> ok
<gema> thanks roignac
<roignac> i guess so, please include other drivers/maintainers of automated test project (based on info from patrickw)
<roignac> s/patrickw/patrickmw/
<gema> yes, will do
<gema> I am also thinking that they may tell me to fix it myself, I am not sure how these things work
<gema> but I guess we'll find out
<gema> we are also looking into modifying the jenkins plugin we installed for the ISO testing dashboard
<gema> so that it shows the build we are testing, aggregates results, etc
<gema> we'll let you know if we go ahead with the enhancements, the plan would be to contribute those upstream
<gema> #subtopic #subtopic https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/other-p-qa-boot-speed-testing
<gema> too many subtopics, let me try again
<gema> #subtopic https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/other-p-qa-boot-speed-testing
<gema> patrickmw is not here, nuclearbob do you have any update on this?
<nuclearbob> yeah, we're working on adding architecture to the results now
<nuclearbob> as part of that we're redoing the directory structure
<nuclearbob> and we'll be adding some information about deltas on a given day and between days
<nuclearbob> that's all I've got for now
<gema> cool, thanks
<gema> #subtopic https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/other-p-qa-kernel-sru
<gema> sconklin is not here either
<gema> moving on
<gema> #subtopic https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/other-p-qa-test-case-management-tool
<gema> the Mozilla team plan to have the new version of Case Conductor ready for mid January
<roignac> o/
<gema> they answered yesterday night to my email and are happy to discuss our requests at some point in January
<gema> yes, roignac ?
<roignac> could you please ask them whether we could use cc.oddsites.net and cc-dev.oddsotes.net freely?
<roignac> As I've taken liberty to create a Ubiquity product
<gema> I did, they are happy for us to perform our tasks there
<gema> as long as we don't destroy their testing envs
<gema> since they are also using it
<roignac> and later realised that this could break some of their automated tests
<roignac> oh, ok. No destruction anyway
<gema> no, I think they run their automated tests in other place
<gema> cool
<roignac> By the way
<alourie> o/
<roignac> I'd like someone to try review feature in CC
<gema> roignac: which feature?
<gema> alourie, you can speak freely
<alourie> ok
<roignac> Case Conductor allows us to review testcases - though I haven't figured how for now
<roignac> So we could review new testcases there, how about that?
<gema> roignac: I don't think it does, we asked for them to add the under review state
<alourie> From what I've seen , CC also offers flow of testing.
<gema> roignac: that is a test environment, we shouldn't be using it to store data
<gema> it can be teared apart any moment
<alourie> we use ISO tracker for that (well, in context of testing ISO images, at least)
<alourie> so what is our purpose with CC? Is it only for storing test cases?
<gema> alourie: storing test cases and results, I would say
<gema> if it shows them in a meaningful way
<roignac> alourie, it has some reports too
<alourie> so, I would use it for reporting as well?
<gema> I think so
<alourie> instead of ISO tracker?
<gema> eventually
<alourie> Ah...
<gema> but that's not going to happen any time soon
<gema> it's going to take us a while to get there
<alourie> hm, ok
<gema> and if it is not better than the iso tracker, then we won't use it for that
<alourie> got ya
<alourie> so it could only be used for storing test cases
<gema> to start with, yes
<alourie> and if it does good job with it, we can only use it for storing :-)
<gema> and for community testing to report results
<gema> and defects
<gema> we just need to find a way to connect it to the tracker database
<alourie> gema: but that's what ISO tracker is for!
<alourie> hm
<gema> which doesn't seem very difficult
<balloons> hello everyone -- late, but thought I would lurk
<gema> balloons: welcome!
<alourie> gema: ok, I'm not clear on this, but let's just waut
<gema> alourie: there are two functionalities on the tracker, one is to report results, the other one is to display them
<gema> alourie: on a first step we are trying to replace the wiki
<alourie> sure
<gema> which is horrible to store test cases
<alourie> +1
<gema> after that, we'll see if we use the tracker fully, or just partially
<gema> depending on how CC integrates with our workflow
<gema> but this is not going to happen overnight in any case
<alourie> I think that test content should show on the flow, either tracker or CC
<alourie> we'll see how CC progresses, and make our minds later.
<gema> and we don't want to screw up any release so we will do a gradual move to CC
<gema> alourie: agreed
<alourie> hey, if they can handle 'test case management', this is already an improvement
<gema> yes
<alourie> even without flows
<gema> it'll flow, just give it time
<alourie> sure it will :-)
<gema> and this will probably free some of our good devs to do some more interesting stuff
<gema> ok, the other thing I wanted to say on this topic
<alourie> roignac: if you find that review option, ping me and we'll schedule something
<gema> I have been thinking about how to classify the test cases and how to structure the testing, I am not sure whether we should be testing images or whether our
<gema> test cases should start targetting packages themselves.
<alourie> o/
<gema> alourie: go ahead
<alourie> I think these are different kinds of testing
<alourie> you test images for being a complete product
<gema> that's the thing, alourie they are not
<alourie> but you test packages for verifying that they work
<alourie> gema: why not?
<gema> alourie: because two different people choose two different options at install time and end up with two different set of packages installed
<gema> so there is no one product in an image
<gema> there is virtually infite products in it
<alourie> hm
<alourie> so what would be purpose of ISO testing?
<gema> so I guess the question is whether we are testing the end product or an artificial construct we call default image
<gema> testing as many flavors of the ISO as we can
<gema> taking them into account
<alourie> gema: would it be too inaccurate to assume that most people install the default image?
<gema> unlike now
<gema> alourie: I believe so
<alourie> so testing the default flow makes sense
<gema> yes, and testing others makes equal sense
<ScottK> The question I'd ask is "what are you testing".
<ScottK> Generally for ISO testing you're testing the image and the installer.
<ScottK> You aren't really testing all the applications.
<alourie> so, we are actually questioning ourselves with "what purpose does ISO testing have?"
<ScottK> That can allow you to narrow your test focus.
<alourie> I'd agree with ScottK on this
<ScottK> People who are running the development release need to test does the stuff work after it's installed and running.
<phillw> indeed, getting it installed and running is an important part
<gema> agreed, so what would you propose we do, ScottK ?
<ScottK> I think the test cases we've had are appropriately focused on what ISO testing needs to accomplish.
<ScottK> That doesn't mean they can't be improved, but they are at least in the ballpark.
<ScottK> What I've seen though is that as the installer evolves, the test cases don't keep up.
<gema> that's the thing, I don't think they are appropriate
<gema> because they are mainly installer tests, not ISO tests
<balloons> ScottK: sounds like the classic issue of adding a feature (code-wise), but not docs or tests, etc
<gema> they don't tend to verify much of what's actually installed works
<alourie> gema: so do we touch here definition of "ISO" as the complete system?
<alourie> so, by "ISO testing" we imply testing that EVERYTHING works...
<gema> I would have thought so
<alourie> or, rather, "tested"
<alourie> hm
<ScottK> Then you better set aside a month or two for testing in the release cycle.
<alourie> that "EVERYTHING" bit worries me a little
<gema> ScottK: or get more people collaborating and get as much as you can automated
<phillw> yikes, test every default app that the standard iso holds?
<ScottK> We're an integrator and have to, to some extent, rely on upstreams to deliver working code.
<gema> phillw: yes
<alourie> wow
<phillw> this would take some time!
<gema> ScottK: we are an integrator and have to verify things integrate properly
<alourie> I could see a problem here :-)
<ScottK> gema: True, but not all of that verification needs to be done in the context of ISO testing.
<gema> well, this is a bigger problem than this meeting, just wanted to let you know I have started to think about it
<alourie> is it even viable?
<gema> ScottK: agreed
<gema> ScottK: but it needs to be done by ISO release time
<gema> alourie: it is
<alourie> gema: so here's an idea
<ScottK> It needs to be done.
<gema> ok
<alourie> what if we split this into 2:
<alourie> 1. ISO testing part 1, which includes installer and image
<alourie> 2. ISO testing part 2, which includes testing that apps work
<alourie> ..
<alourie> in general, they could be done in parallel/separately
<gema> alourie: the apps part we need to automate, I don't think running it manually unless it is necessary due to the nature of the test case works
<gema> alourie: I don't see how you can test that the apps work without the installer working properly
<gema> cos you don't have the system under test installed in that case
<gema> anyway, we can keep discussing this on the list
<alourie> ok, let's take it offline
<gema> it was just a thought that occurred to me whilst trying to figure out how to populate CC
<alourie> gema: ok
<alourie> gema: I can also tell you about my secret idea then
<alourie> :-)
<gema> #subtopic https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/other-p-qa-backlog
<gema> alourie: cool :D
<gema> any backlog info to share today?
<alourie> are community tasks separate item nowdays?
<gema> they are in case something got lost
<gema> but we can discuss here too
<alourie> ok
<alourie> so I can go with wiki updates
<gema> I haven't added the tasks to the blueprints yet because I didn't find the time
<gema> but you can go ahead, yes
<alourie> ok, so I didn't have much time to work on wiki this week, but I did make some progress
<alourie> I will also make a hierarchy of the thing I want to update, and work on them too
<alourie> so, I hope that I'll have something to update with soon
<alourie> and then I'll send it to the list for review
<alourie> ..
<gema> alourie: excellent, thanks a lot
<gema> anything else anyone
<gema> ?
<gema> #subtopic https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/other-p-qa-qa-regression-testing
<gema> nuclearbob: ?
<nuclearbob> I've got autotest packaged now, autotest-server and autotest-client are in my ppa
<gema> could you post the launchpad link to it?
<nuclearbob> I've been using those to run tests on the most recent images available in our openstack cluster
<nuclearbob> yeah
<nuclearbob> https://launchpad.net/~nuclearbob/+archive/ppa
<gema> thanks
<gema> ok, thanks a lot nuclearbob
<gema> #subtopic https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/other-p-qa-automated-test-submissions
<nuclearbob> some of the tests are failing on the precise dailies, so I'm doing more investigation to determine whether the failures are actual problems or whether the test code needs to be updated
<nuclearbob> looks like some of both
<gema> ups, sorry
<nuclearbob> that's all from me
<gema> ok, sounds good, thanks
<gema> #subtopic https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/other-p-qa-automated-test-submissions
<gema> no progress on this task this week, so nothing to report
<gema> #subtopic https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/other-p-qa-metrics
<gema> no progress on this one either
<gema> #subtopic https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/other-p-qa-standard-sru-testing
<gema> we don't have jibel around, so no progress on this one either
<gema> #subtopic Community Tasks - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/QATeam/TasksPrecise
<gema> have we missed any community task ?
<gema> that we have people here to discuss, I mean
<alourie> I don't think so
<gema> ok, so moving on
<gema> #topic Update Lubuntu
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | QA Meeting Meeting | Current topic:  Update Lubuntu
<gema> phillw: ?
<phillw> all is peaceful, no horrible show-stopping bugs reported.
<gema> good
<gema> anything else, phillw ?
<phillw> at the meeting tonight they are looking to form some teams... I'm hoping for a QA / testing team :)
<gema> that'd be good, yes :D
<alourie> phillw, gema: would you elaborate a bit?
<alourie> a, the Lubuntu ;-)
<gema> I guess phillw is getting himself a QA Team for Lubuntu, yes
<alourie> gema, phillw: this reminds me
<phillw> alourie: currently everything lubuntu is on one mailing list, we are looking to start to split groups so, for example, normal users do not get the chatter from the devs about what they're working on
<alourie> phillw: sure,
<alourie> currently, when we list different QA subgroups on wiki, we list Kubuntu QA
<alourie> so, I think we need to list all the QA that we have in -buntu universe there
<phillw> alourie: that would be correct, as I'm the only person on the Lubuntu QA team (and I get lonely :P )
<alourie> :-)
<gema> good, alourie will you take care of that?
<gema> we are running out of time
<alourie> gema: of course
<gema> cool, thanks
<gema> #topic Update Xubuntu
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | QA Meeting Meeting | Current topic:  Update Xubuntu
<gema> charlie doesn't seem to be around
<gema> so we are moving on
<gema> #topic Update Ubuntu
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | QA Meeting Meeting | Current topic:  Update Ubuntu
<gema> I don't think we have any updates for Ubuntu either, besides what we've already discussed
<gema> #topic Other Topics
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | QA Meeting Meeting | Current topic:  Other Topics
<gema> I'd like to mention that we are not having our weekly meeting next week
<gema> due to holidays and festivities
<gema> are we all happy with that?
<gema> or do you guys want to have it?
<alourie> sure
<phillw> okay with me.
<alourie> ok here
<gema> ok, so our next meeting will be the 4th of January
<gema> if anyone wants to chair it, let me know, otherwise I will do it :)
<gema> any other topic ?
<alourie> gema: what was that bit about "participating in jenkins" stuff, that you wanted to mention later?
<gema> ahh, we'll start with the training that hggdh is going to give
<gema> and then we could have ubuntu-qa triaging issues
<gema> or at least, trying to learn how to do it
<alourie> triaging issues?
<gema> as in, when a test fails, determine why and raise a defect if required
<alourie> aha
<gema> or try to reproduce on your environment to make sure it happens
<alourie> ok
<gema> that sort of thing
<alourie> sure
<gema> but we need some training for that
<alourie> nod
 * alourie loves this stuff
<balloons> does the bugsquad have anything for it now?
<gema> no, bugsquad are doing different things
<gema> afaik
<gema> we are doing it within canonical QA
<gema> but there is no reason why the community contributors cannot do it if they like to
<balloons> right right..
<gema> so that'd be it, any further qustions, please send to the list! :D
<alourie> balloons: we split qa and bugsquad to 2 teams
<gema> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Wed Dec 21 17:57:08 2011 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2011/ubuntu-meeting.2011-12-21-17.02.moin.txt
<alourie> yea!
<alourie> thanks all
<roignac> thanks guys
<phillw> as ever gema thanks for chairing!
<gema> balloons: the bugsquad meeting happens next if you want to sit through it :)
<alourie> indeed, gema rocks!
<gema> thank you all for your time
<balloons> gema: thanks, sure will
<gema> and have a very Merry Christmas :)
<phillw> +1
<alourie> +1
<balloons> alourie: yes, I'll have to catch up on how they interact
<alourie> and other holidays, if you have them
<balloons> +1
<gema> alourie: +1
<alourie> awesome
 * bdmurray looks around
<jsalisbury> o/
<pedro_> hi
<bdmurray> lets get started
<bdmurray> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Wed Dec 21 18:01:44 2011 UTC.  The chair is bdmurray. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/AlanBell/mootbot.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
<bdmurray> #topic Previous Actions
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Previous Actions
<bdmurray> ACTION: bdmurray to investigate what happened to the rhythmbox package hook
<bdmurray> I filed and fixed bug 904527 regarding this
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 904527 in rhythmbox (Ubuntu) "apport package hook no longer installed" [Medium,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/904527
<bdmurray> pedro_: do you think that is worth SRU'ing to oneiric?
<pedro_> would be nice to have it there, yes
<bdmurray> okay, I can do that
<bdmurray> #action bdmurray to prepare Oneiric SRU for bug 904527
<meetingology> ACTION: bdmurray to prepare Oneiric SRU for bug 904527
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 904527 in rhythmbox (Ubuntu) "apport package hook no longer installed" [Medium,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/904527
<pedro_> cool ,thanks bdmurray
<bdmurray> pedro_: no problem
<bdmurray> that's that for previous actions
<bdmurray> #topic Engineering Team Bug Status
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Engineering Team Bug Status
<bdmurray> pedro_: do you have anything?
<pedro_> not much to share, just something that might be interesting to the triagers using bugzilla to file bugs at the upstream projects: http://paulrouget.com/e/learnbugzilla/
<pedro_> ..
<bdmurray> pedro_: that looks really neat - thanks!
<bdmurray> jsalisbury: any news from you?
<jsalisbury> One bug I'd like to mention is bug 904569  It appears to be a regression in and Oneiric kernel update.
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 904569 in linux (Ubuntu) "Linux 3.0.0-15-generic-pae causes laptops to fail to resume from suspend (Dell XPS 1645, Sony Vaio VPCF1390)" [Medium,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/904569
<jsalisbury> Lot's of new bugs coming in for this.  I'm working on bisecting, but the SRU team is out until the new year.
<jsalisbury> ..
<bdmurray> jsalisbury: what's the resume-trace procedure mentioned in comment #3?  I haven't seen that before
<jsalisbury> bdmurray, It's a procedure to try and track down suspend issues.  I personally haven't gone through it, yet.
<bdmurray> jsalisbury: oh, I see now it just has a fancy name ;-)
<jsalisbury> right
<bdmurray> thanks for bringing that bug up
<jsalisbury> np, figured it's something to keep an eye out for
<bdmurray> I spent some time reading about libata error messages this week
<bdmurray> https://ata.wiki.kernel.org/articles/l/i/b/Libata_error_messages.html
<bdmurray> and come to find out we were receiving some more bug reports about ubiquity and package installation failures that were really hardware related
<bdmurray> so I've taken care of that in the general ubuntu apport hook and also in my bug bot (which will catch these from previous releases)
<bdmurray> and I cleaned up some existing bug reports
<bdmurray> I also updated the ubiquity apport package hook to tag ubiquity bugs ubiquity-upgrade if people choose to reinstall Ubuntu using ubiquity
<bdmurray> It also looks like the call for help with update-manager-core bug reports worked as there are now 0. ;-)
<bdmurray> So thanks for helping with those.
<bdmurray> #topic Bug Escalations
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Bug Escalations
<bdmurray> Are there any High or Critical bugs that we should be aware of or are being neglected?
<bdmurray> okay then
<bdmurray> #topic Other Topics
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Other Topics
<bdmurray> Is there anything else to discuss?
<bdmurray> I'm on holiday next week as I think most of us are so the next meeting will be 1/4/2012.
<bdmurray> Thanks everyone!
<bdmurray> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Wed Dec 21 18:22:49 2011 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2011/ubuntu-meeting.2011-12-21-18.01.moin.txt
<pedro_> thanks
<jsalisbury> thanks, bdmurray
<bil21al> helo
<tp0x45> .
 * gilir takes a seat
<LogicalDream> Hi all
 * tp0x45 nervously eating a seat...
<shandy> :)
 * rezbd takes seat
<gilir> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Wed Dec 21 20:02:21 2011 UTC.  The chair is gilir. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/AlanBell/mootbot.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
<jmarsden> o/
<gastly> o/
<phillw> o/
<gilir> hi :)
<Yorvyk> o/
<LogicalDream> 'ello
<rezbd> 0/
<rezbd> o/
<moergaes> MÃ¶rgÃ¦s here
<shandy> hi
<Unit193> Howdy
<tp0x45> hi all
<gilir> as usual : https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Lubuntu/IRC%20Meetings/Agenda
<stephen-smally> Hi
<gilir> Chris will not be available, so I'll skip its topics
<gilir> Mohi doesn't seem to be here also :(
<rezbd> I'm first time on a lubuntu meeting
<phillw> gilir: I'll take the section for POC for wiki FAQ agenda
<moergaes> Me too
<LogicalDream> we are  not following this agenda tonight ? https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LoCoCouncilAgenda
<gilir> for new people, we will follow the agenda, if you have a question, just o/ :)
<stephen-smally> The netbook interface is an interesting topic
<Unit193> LogicalDream: Wrong meeting
<rezbd> ok :)
<LogicalDream> It was one hour ago or ... ?
<gastly> LogicalDream, that meeting was on Tuesday (according to the wiki page) :)
<gilir> [TOPIC] Review ACTIONS from the last meeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Review ACTIONS from the last meeting
<LogicalDream> tnx gastly my mistake
<gastly> np :)
<gilir> I'm a bit late for the previous actions :/
<gilir> just, if you want to follow the updates done for the release time, the page is now up-to-date : https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Lubuntu/ReleaseStatus/Precise
<gilir> I'll do the others items later this week
<gilir> [TOPIC] A POC for maintaining Lubuntu FAQ pages
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: A POC for maintaining Lubuntu FAQ pages
<gilir> phillw, ^ :)
<stephen-smally> (stupid question) o/
<phillw> As has been requested, so that we all know when an FAQ has been added
<phillw> is someone willing to be point of contact so that things are tied up.
<phillw> one example would be letting the guy who looks after the forum thread on Lubuntu be kept up to speed on additions?
<phillw> stephen-smally:
<moergaes> Anybody having a link to the FAQ pages?
<stephen-smally> nevermind, is a question to gilir
<jmarsden> moergaes: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Lubuntu/Documentation/FAQ
<moergaes> Thanks
<gilir> phillw, you suggest to propose this to amjjawad ?
<phillw> gilir: as he has also shown interest in looking after another wiki based area, once he is off his sick bed, I think he would be happy to fulfil that role.
<Yorvyk> phillw: As I said on the list, I think it would help if there was a brief explanation of the role of the POC
<rezbd> does amjjawad not come to the meeting? or he has a different nick for IRC? he's very helpful.
<phillw> A point of contact is the 'delegated' person to whom queries can be directed, instead of just to the general mailing list.
<phillw> that person knows the other POC's to whom some thing in one area could affect, it speeds up the transferrerance of pertinent information.
<phillw> without flooding the mailing list.
<gilir> phillw, do you know someone else interesting ?
<jmarsden> IMO, FAQ maintenance needs a good understanding of the tech issues being answered, and of appropriate wording for the questions and their answers... are we expecting the "POC" to be "the official" FAQ maintainer?  Or just some sort of human information relay?
<phillw> rezbd: It may be that it falls at bad time for his timezone.
<phillw> jmarsden: a bit of both.
<rezbd> phillw, I understand. it's bad time for my time zone too. 02:19 AM here right now.
<phillw> At present, only those subscribed to FAQ section get notified of any aedits.
<Yorvyk> jmarsden: thats what I was trying to get at.  How much do they need to know?
<phillw> I would say they need to have enough knowledge to understand the exisiting FAQ's and also understand things from a n00b point of view.
<gilir> jmarsden, that would be nice, but maybe just a review from a dev would be suffisent for the beginning ?
<phillw> gilir: I'm for that, I used to send my proposed to you :)
<jmarsden> OK, as long as we are not expecting more tech depth from amjjawad than is realistic.
<phillw> a peer review of instructions that (may) include the use of sudo is a good idea :)
<gilir> let's propose it, and see what he thinks about it, phillw could you do it ?
<phillw> gilir: sure, email him.
<phillw> you can #action that to me.
<phillw> (*Sure, I will email*
<gilir> [ACTION] phillw to email  amjjawad about the POC of the FAQ
<meetingology> ACTION: phillw to email  amjjawad about the POC of the FAQ
<gilir> ok next :)
<gilir> [TOPIC] Update on QA. Also will Lubuntu have a wastebin on the desktop
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Update on QA. Also will Lubuntu have a wastebin on the desktop
<gilir> phillw, still you :)
<phillw> The QA team are busy looking at the further automation of tests in the lab.
<phillw> they are also re-writing some the tests to be flavour specific (e.g. we use pcmanfm)
<phillw> At random I chose a test that is to check that you can send something to the wastebin & delete it. Hence my question as to if Lubuntu will be putting the waste bin onto the desktop?
<jmarsden> phillw: Any progress on automated ISO (install) testing?
 * jmarsden thinks that for political correctness, we have to be ecological and have a "recycling bin" not a wastebin :)
<phillw> jmarsden: yeah, they are triaging some issues as some of the recent dailies have failed due to mixture of errors on the builds and the robot that tests them.
<gilir> technicaly, we can't have a "real" wastebin on the desktop, just a shortcut
<gilir> so, you can't do a "right click => empty"
<phillw> the new auto system is most unlikely to be in for 12.04, we are due a session on learning about it in the New Year, anyone interested in attending, please email me & I'll ensure you are informed as to when it will be held.
<gastly> gilir, I thought so, pcmanfm doesn't support this afaik
<phillw> gilir: that is fine, as long as when I write the test it won't be obsolete by the time 12.04 launches!
<rezbd> phillw, didn't get it. attending in what?
<phillw> rezbd: a session on the new auto-testing system.
<Yorvyk> I have never seen a reason or justification for a waste bin on the desktop-anybody got one?
<moergaes> A link to a waste bin is fine with me.
<gastly> I personally never use the waste bin :p
<phillw> They are also looking to 'alter' iso testing from just "does it install" to test each app in the default install actually runs as expected. This, again, is not going to be in place for 12.04 and does require the auto-testing - or a lot of testers!
<gilir> Yorvyk, same opinion here
<phillw> there are a couple of auto-testers being discussed atm, again in January I should have some more to report back on that.
<rezbd> phillw, does it require high speed internet connection to attend on that auto-testing system?
<phillw> rezbd: nope, it is being held on IRC
<rezbd> oh ok :)
<phillw> my guess is that it will be on the qa channel, or in the classroom.
<rezbd> that's cool :) I'm interested
<gilir> I think the easiest way is to contact phillw directly if you are interesting in the topic :)
<gilir> phillw, anything else for the QA report ?
<phillw> for anyone who has not got my email  phillw@ubuntu.com will land in my inbox :)
<phillw> gilir: not until we get to the teams bit, later.
<gilir> ok, so I will jump to this :)
<gilir> [TOPIC] Proposal to create dedicated teams
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Proposal to create dedicated teams
<gilir> something I would like to re-create is the system of team, we had in the past
<gilir> team/teams
<rezbd> phillw, it's not so difficult to get your email. I see you talk regularly in Lubuntu mailing  :)
<gilir> I added my ideas on the wiki page : https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Lubuntu/Teams_New
<gilir> the goal is coordinate the work inside of each team
<gilir> for example, the artwork team is already working on the 12.04 artwork :)
<stephen-smally> i think is a good idea
<rezbd> sounds cool :)
<stephen-smally> but, will each team have a mailing list?
<phillw> gilir: I'm all for, as you know a QA/Testing team.
<gilir> with this, we can work inside each team, and coordinate all together during the meeting on Wednesday, or the mailing list
<rezbd> how many teams out there developing Lubuntu?
<gilir> stephen-smally, each team can do what they want for communication :)
<stephen-smally> is great
<rafaellaguna> sorry, I'm late!
<stephen-smally> so if a developer need a nice design for a stuff can ask on the artwork mailing list (or whatever)
<gilir> rezbd, teams are not created yet :)
<jmarsden> gilir: Do you have proposed leaders/coordinators for each of the proposed teams listed at : https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Lubuntu/Teams_New
<gilir> rafaellaguna, just in time, I'm talking about teams and the artwork team ;)
<Yorvyk> These teams will be part of the larger general ubuntu teams?
<rafaellaguna> nice :)
<gilir> jmarsden, no, I think each teams should nominated a leader / coordinator
<gilir> but it's part of the discussion :)
<rafaellaguna> I have a question about Network session (artwork related) too
<gilir> Yorvyk, they can work with other ubuntu teams, but they have to organize this
<gilir> rafaellaguna, we can talk about it after this topic
<rafaellaguna> ok
<stephen-smally> btw, +1 for the separated teams
<gilir> if nobody have comment now, I can send an official proposal to the list, and open the teams :)
<jmarsden> gilir: go for it :)
<gastly> yup +1 for the teams
<phillw> +1
<gilir> [ACTION] gilir to send the proposal of the teams to the mailing list
<meetingology> ACTION: gilir to send the proposal of the teams to the mailing list
<gilir> ok, move to the netbook session
<gilir> [ACTION] Discuss continuation of Netbook Interface
<meetingology> ACTION: Discuss continuation of Netbook Interface
<gilir> I'll introduce this one :)
<jmarsden> gilir: what about rafaellaguna's question... ?
<gilir> so the netbook interface was create just to show how lxlauncher can work :)
<gilir> we did do much work about it, since the beginning
<rafaellaguna> Not too many interventions on this interface
<stephen-smally> i think lxlauncher needs heavy tweaks anyway
<gilir> I don't think there is so much work to keep it, it's already working
<rafaellaguna> I must say it's needed a complete rework
<rafaellaguna> not simply patching
<rafaellaguna> I'm not talking about the possibility of including a selectable background
<gilir> rafaellaguna, there is a work-in-progress to add theming support for lxlauncher
<gilir> but work-in-progress since more than a year :-/
<rafaellaguna> gilir: no, I'm focused on Lubuntu session "only"
<stephen-smally> basically, lxlauncher read a gtkrc file.
<rafaellaguna> gilir: yep, I tried, but was unsuccesful
<stephen-smally> but the customization is not so simple, and:
<stephen-smally> 1 - the tabbed interface is not comfortable
<gilir> rafaellaguna, of course, the classic session is the priority :)
<rafaellaguna> My idea is, if the project continues, making something similar to Elementary's Slingshot launcher
<rafaellaguna> KDE did something similar on the new Netbook Plasma environment
<rafaellaguna> can I put a link?
<gilir> rafaellaguna, same problem as always, do we have the manpower to do it
<gilir> rafaellaguna, yes, with the LINK tag
<rafaellaguna> well, you all know now "I am two"
<Yorvyk> Is there any suggestion that anybody use the netbook Interface?
<rafaellaguna> :) I mean, frankbooth is the other part of the artwork team
<rafaellaguna> a friend of mine loves that interface, more than classic session
<gilir> unless we can re-use something, which need to be lightweight, it would be difficult to change this interface
<rafaellaguna> http://holageek.com/v1/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/slingshot.png
<gilir> rafaellaguna, do you have a link to the source also ? :p
<rafaellaguna> of lxlauncher?
<gastly> rafaellaguna, that looks similar to gnome-shell
<gilir> rafaellaguna, no, to slingshot
<rafaellaguna> gastly: yes, but it's a hundred lighter
<stephen-smally> is hosted on launchpad (and written in vala ;-P)
<rezbd> it look gorgeous. rafaellaguna , what's interface is it?
<rafaellaguna> gilir: no, there's a team on launchpad
<gilir> find it : https://code.launchpad.net/~elementary-pantheon/slingshot/new-slingshot
<Yorvyk> It looks like a load of icons on the desktop :(
<rafaellaguna> warning: the new-slingshot is different
<phillw> Yorvyk: that, I believe is how they run their netbooks... very wierd :)
<rezbd> lol Yorvyk , yea for a classic deskop
<rafaellaguna> gilir: slingshot now is a gnome2-like menu, semitransparent, like Cinnamon (the new Gnome3 fork for Mint) will look like
<rafaellaguna> it's a hard work taking that and adapt to Lubuntu
<rafaellaguna> also, pantheon library requierements are huge!
<Yorvyk> I believe we need to find netbook users that like that style of interface and ask them for their views.
<rezbd> I really like the present desktop interface of Lubuntu. I wounder what will it look like on 12.04 !
<Yorvyk> 2 mins to go!
<rezbd> Yorvyk, I'm a netbook user.
<rafaellaguna> honestly, I think it's unnecessary, classic session looks fine on netbooks and also notebooks
<jmarsden> +1
<gastly> +1
<gilir> well, unles we have a good replacement, I suggest to keep the situation as it is now :)
<stephen-smally> yes, but anyway we shouldn't ship lxlauncher until is ready
<Yorvyk> +1
 * rezbd agrees with gilir 
<MrChrisDruif> Evening
<MrChrisDruif> Sorry I'm so late
<rafaellaguna> me agrees gilir
<MrChrisDruif> Couldn't come any earlier
<gilir> stephen-smally, well it is ready, it just can't do many things :)
<stephen-smally> graphically speaking ;-)
<gilir> MrChrisDruif, it's time to finish :( but you will be able to read the logs
<gilir> ok, let's finish, thanks everyone :)
<MrChrisDruif> Unless everyone has to go, then there is no reason to stop =P
<gilir> just a quick information to finish
<gilir> I would like to cancel the next meeting
<Yorvyk> OK bye - must dash!
<stephen-smally> no problem, is christmas time
<MrChrisDruif> Bye Yorvyk
<rafaellaguna> due to xmas?
<gilir> rafaellaguna, yes
<gilir> I'll had it the minutes of the meeting
<gastly> Good, I have exams next week xD
<MrChrisDruif> rafaellaguna; the in-between time of Christmas & New Years
<jmarsden> So next meeting Wed Jan 4 2012
<gilir> thanks to everyones, see you next year ;)
<rafaellaguna> happy new year to everybody! :)
<gilir> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Wed Dec 21 21:03:56 2011 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2011/ubuntu-meeting.2011-12-21-20.02.moin.txt
<moergaes> See you all. Merry (Lightweight) Christmas to all.
<MrChrisDruif> Merry Christmas and a happy new year everyone!
<gastly> Have an awesome christmas everyone! :)
<phillw> have a good christmas, see you all in the New Year!
<rezbd> wishing advance Merry Christmas and happy new year to all :)
#ubuntu-meeting 2011-12-22
<PerfM> SUP
<PerfM> HEY
<PerfM> WHERE MY DAWGS AT
<PerfM> BARK WITH ME IF YER MY DAWG!
#ubuntu-meeting 2011-12-25
 * Martyn is making a pamphlet and wiki page for "How to stay safe in Oakland."
<Martyn> Figure, might as well do something positive.
<MobileDruif> Meeting?
<MobileDruif> No gamers/gaming meeting?
#ubuntu-meeting 2012-12-17
<bdrung> !dmb-ping
<ubottu> bdrung, cody-somerville, Laney, micahg, barry, tumbleweed, stgraber: DMB ping
<bdrung> meeting in a few minutes
 * barry waves
 * stgraber waves
<barry> #startmeeting
<meetingology> barry: Error: Can't start another meeting, one is in progress.
<barry> :(
<barry> #endmeeting
<stgraber> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Mon Dec 17 14:01:14 2012 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes (wiki):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-12-13-19.00.moin.txt
<meetingology> Minutes (html):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-12-13-19.00.html
<stgraber> barry: there you go
<barry> thanks stgraber
<barry> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Mon Dec 17 14:01:27 2012 UTC.  The chair is barry. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
<barry> hello and welcome to the last ubuntu developer membership board meeting of 2012
<tumbleweed> hi
<bdrung> the last DMB meeting before the world will end :D
<barry> do we have quorum today?
<micahg> o/
<bdrung> barry: yes
<barry> bdrung: if we give ~mayans upload rights will that avoid doomsday?
<Laney> hey
<barry> #topic Review of previous action items
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Review of previous action items
<barry> micahg to document the zentyal packageset
<bdrung> barry: they should do uploads directly to Debian and wait for their next stable release. ;)
<micahg> nope, will do over vacation
<barry> micahg: thanks
<barry> micahg to ask docs people if they want to apply for a packageset
<barry> same?
<micahg> let's drop this, I don't remember why this is necessary ATM
<barry> k
<micahg> I believe the relevant people have upload rights already
<barry> #topic Review any packageset descriptions that have been received (micahg)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Review any packageset descriptions that have been received (micahg)
<micahg> oh, wait, now I remember
<micahg> leave it on, I'll try to ping the relevant person over vacation
<barry> micahg: ok
<micahg> and try to finish the packageset descriptions as well
<barry> cool, thanks
<barry> #topic Lightweight process for amending PPU rights (for DDs?) (Laney)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Lightweight process for amending PPU rights (for DDs?) (Laney)
<Laney> yeah so
<Laney> sometimes we grant DDs PPU for "their packages"
<Laney> but we don't really have a way of extending this when they acquire more over time
<Laney> I suppose we should?
<tumbleweed> having one or two people ack it on the mailing list would work for me
<Laney> in general we usually say that it's a good idea to make the path for DDs wanting to upload to Ubuntu as smooth as possible
<barry> tumbleweed: +1
<micahg> yeah, this should be fine as long as they're not migrating from not on ISO -> ISO or no rdeps to lots of rdeps
<Laney> people on the dmb?
<micahg> and specifically for DDs
<bdrung> one ACK on the mailing list without any dmb member against it
<Laney> apparently this came up before, let me find the irc log
<Laney> 2010-11-02
<tumbleweed> then we expect that DMB member to do some research (e.g. determine if it's the uploader's first seeded package)
<Laney> http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2010/11/02/%23ubuntu-meeting.html#t15:04
<bdrung> could we extent the PPU right application to apply for package groups like we do for package sets (i apply for foo-* / i apply for my DD packages)
<Laney> yes, that happens
<Laney> I wouldn't say that we need to ask the TB to ack this, despite the fact that it was the TB who had ^^^ discussion
<barry> right, these are folks who already have dd and some ubuntu upload rights, so i think a lightweight verification of ongoing good work should be sufficient
<Laney> so it's
<Laney>  - be a DD
<Laney>  - have attended the DMB before and gotten some PPU
<Laney>  - not be extending the 'impact' of the packages (or you get further questioning by email)
<tumbleweed> sounds good
<barry> and specifically asking for ppu on packages they are the debian maintainer of?
<Laney> or in the team which is
<Laney> maybe?
<barry> yeah, i was going to ask about teams :)
<bdrung> Laney: then they should be uploaders of these packages
<tumbleweed> if they've been an active recent uploader of it, then team member would be ok for me
<micahg> yeah, if it's team maintained and they are DD, they are probably expected to upload, so that seems fine (assuming the other conditions are met)
<tumbleweed> but they should probably be an Uploader at that point...
<Laney> not all teams manage uploaders in the same way
<bdrung> some teams are quite big
<tumbleweed> fair enough
<Laney> if they're active on the package (use judgement) then it should be ok
<Laney> look at uploads or vcs or whatever
<bdrung> re number of packages
<tumbleweed> at some point, for a biggish team, I'd image that packagesets start making more sense than PPU
<barry> maybe we can just say that if laney's three criteria are met, expedited ppu *can* be provided, but still at the discretion of the dmb.  then we can more or less take it case-by-case
<Laney> perhaps
<Laney> action me to wikify it and mail
<bdrung> the packages overview for Debian Multimedia Maintainers shows 369 packages, for example
<barry> #action laney to describe criteria and process for lightweight amending of ppu rights (for dds)
<meetingology> ACTION: laney to describe criteria and process for lightweight amending of ppu rights (for dds)
<barry> shall we move on?
<barry> #topic Package Sets
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Package Sets
<barry> none today
<barry> #topic PerPackageUploader Applications
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: PerPackageUploader Applications
<barry> roadmr: hi, are you here today?
<roadmr> hello!
<barry> #link https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DanielManrique/PerPackageUploadRightsApplication
<barry> roadmr: could you introduce yourself and describe what you're applying for?
<roadmr> Sure!
<roadmr> Hi, I'm Daniel. I'm a hardware certification engineer at Canonical.
<roadmr> I'm part of the team responsible for the checkbox system testing tool that ships with Ubuntu, and I usually handle preparation of the checkbox code that will go up into Ubuntu.
<roadmr> We rely on help from sponsors to get our changes up into Ubuntu. I'd like to be able to contribute in a more effective way by handling these uploads myself.
<roadmr> This will let me take some workload off our sponsors, work more closely with other checkbox contributors, and gaining more experience in the upload process to hopefully help sponsors with upload reviewing.
<roadmr> Thanks!
<roadmr> ..
<bdrung> roadmr: is checkbox Ubuntu specific?
<roadmr> bdrung: yes, it doesn't exist in Debian
 * Laney is re-reading the application
<roadmr> bdrung: It *could* potentially be made to work on Debian, it's just work we haven't done
<bdrung> roadmr: let me rephrase my question. can checkbox only be used in Ubuntu or could it be used by other distributions for QA, too?
<roadmr> bdrung: oh I understand now. It could be used by other distros, some work would be required
<roadmr> bdrung: on the packaging front it may depend on packages and/or versions that may only make sense in Ubuntu
<bdrung> roadmr: then it would be nice if checkbox would be change to a non-native format.
<roadmr> bdrung: and some of the tests depend on packages and/or services that are default in Ubuntu but may be optional in other distros, so are not declared as explicit dependencies, without those the tests will fail
<barry> roadmr: is there a way to make tests optional or easily disabled?
<micahg> roadmr: depending on what they are, perhaps they should be part of the build dependencies then
<roadmr> bdrung: we have plans for that, so that checkbox can be distributed as a source tar.gz and Ubuntu packaging be added afterwards, this would ease use by other distros - again, it's in the list of things we want to do but nothing concrete yet
<bdrung> i see the tendency to make package native just because it should be put in Ubuntu (despite the fact that the package could be useful on other distributions)
<roadmr> barry: yes, you can either declare which tests to run in a "runlist" (we call them whitelists), or simply remove the check mark for each test in a selection screen
<roadmr> micahg: yes, part of the work to ensure it runs well in other distros would be having a good look at dependencies and maybe declaring them explicitly per-test (checkbox supports this, but we obviate when we know it's included by default in Ubuntu)
<tumbleweed> roadmr: so, historically, checkbox has had some difficulty around the ubuntu release cycle
<micahg> roadmr: right, but even in Ubuntu, you still need to declare dependencies that aren't in essential/transitive essential/build essentia;
<tumbleweed> what is the checkbox release cycle?
<micahg> in case it's no longer "defulat"
<micahg> *default
<roadmr> micahg: yes, we've been trying to be more diligent with that, we try to add essential dependencies (such as udisks)
<roadmr> tumbleweed: we don't have a formal release cycle as such, we try to adhere to the Ubuntu release schedule as far as making big changes early in the cycle
<roadmr> tumbleweed: one of our plans for this cycle was to come up with a decent development/release/versioning plan for checkbox
<tumbleweed> so, there isn't really any reason that checkbox should have trouble with the ubuntu release cycle
<tumbleweed> I seem to recall a fair number of checkbox releases post FF
<roadmr> tumbleweed: you're right. What's happened historically is that we sometimes have new features that land in our development branch a bit late in the cycle
<roadmr> tumbleweed: so as you noted we have to resort to requesting FFes for those features to make it into the release
<tumbleweed> right, and I think you got almost all of them
<tumbleweed> but it can be a slow process...
<roadmr> tumbleweed: this is something we need to improve, we need a bit of discipline in trying to get all the changes *before* FF
<roadmr> tumbleweed: but also within the team, being more strict so that we don't dump the need to say "no" on to the release team
<roadmr> tumbleweed: yes, in that respect we've had a lot of support from the release team but as I said, it'd be fairer to everyone if we strive to not do those disruptive changes after FF
<tumbleweed> now FF has been pushed back, so the chance of the release team saying no is probably higher
<roadmr> tumbleweed: yes, OTOH we have more time to get those big changes in place :)
<barry> with more opportunity to get the needed changes in before then <wink>
<tumbleweed> :)
<Laney> There are a few comments on the application wiki about sponsors being the ones who spot the need for exceptions. If you're granted PPU then there will be no sponsor firewal. Are you confident this won't be a problem?
<roadmr> Laney: I'm a bit scared about not having the extra safety net of an sponsor, but I think that will just encourage me to be extra anal when it comes to deciding whether an exception is needed
<Laney> Nobody likes getting a micahg nastygram on -devel :P
<micahg> lol
<barry> :)
<roadmr> Laney: that scares the living daylights out of me, so yes, if in any doubt I'd ask first :) but if in doubt, I'd just go ahead and go through the exception process
<barry> roadmr: how do you know if an exception is necessary?  what resources would you consult?
<roadmr> barry: I usually read and reread https://wiki.ubuntu.com/FreezeExceptionProcess and look at the release schedule to see where we are
<roadmr> barry: I've also learned to "interpret" this a bit, for instance, we did some UI-related changes which needed some code changes to back them
<roadmr> barry: my initial intuition was that this was UIFe, since the code changes were minor, but the sponsor still felt it also needed FFe, so I ended up requesting both
<roadmr> barry: so lesson learned, which I'll keep in mind in the future - doing both exceptions from the get-go would have saved us a few days on that one
<barry> roadmr: for example: https://code.launchpad.net/~roadmr/ubuntu/quantal/checkbox/0.14.8/+merge/127923
<barry> roadmr: was there a ffe bug on that one?  apulido's comment indicates an ffe was granted but no record of that was given
<micahg> it was granted by laney in the bug
<roadmr> barry: usually code that closes bugs should not need FFe, but this was an instance where the closed bug was actually implementing a (small) feature
<roadmr> barry: yes, the bug was the one with the FFe (https://bugs.launchpad.net/checkbox/+bug/1060211)
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 1060211 in checkbox "[FFe] graphics_driver script does not report proprietary driver version" [Low,Fix released]
<barry> ah,cool, thanks
<roadmr> barry: that's how we usually do it, exceptions are requested on bugs, then the merge request and candidate bug should mention those.
<bdrung> roadmr: fixing a bug can mean fixing a crash/defect or adding a new feature (wishlist bugs)
<bdrung> roadmr: rewriting a big portion of code to fix a bug can require a FFe too
<roadmr> bdrung: yes, well this is an area where some discretion/judgment is needed I guess, as to how much code qualifies as "just a bug fix" as opposed to "fixing a bug by adding a new feature"
<barry> roadmr: yes, that can be a dicey question sometimes
<roadmr> bdrung: we wouldn't try to get wishlist bugs in without FFe, this bug we mentioned wasn't wishlist and the phrasing suggested just a hardware detection failure but, on a closer look, it did constitute a new feature
<micahg> roadmr: I'm sure you're also aware that with checkbox being on multiple ISOs and trying to keep everything daily installable, that breakage will need to be dealt with swiftly?
<roadmr> micahg: yes, we have quite a few people who are able to work on checkbox now, so we should be able to respond to breakage more quickly
<roadmr> micahg: we usually notice checkbox failures during our periodic (usually at least weekly) testing
<barry> #vote grant roadmr ppu rights to checkbox
<meetingology> Please vote on: grant roadmr ppu rights to checkbox
<meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (private votes don't work yet, but when they do it will be by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0 to me)
<barry> #voters bdrung, cody-somerville, Laney, micahg, barry, tumbleweed, stgraber
<meetingology> Warning: Nick not in channel: cody-somerville
<meetingology> Current voters: Laney barry bdrung cody-somerville micahg stgraber tumbleweed
<barry> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from barry
<micahg> roadmr: right, but as the uploader, you're taking responsibility for driving and getting that fix in
<bdrung> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from bdrung
<tumbleweed> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from tumbleweed
<Laney> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from Laney
<micahg> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from micahg
<roadmr> micahg: right, well if I'm able to do the uploads myself it actually eases things because I don't have to pester sponsors for help with the upload :)
<stgraber> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from stgraber
<barry> #endvote
<meetingology> Voting ended on: grant roadmr ppu rights to checkbox
<meetingology> Votes for:6 Votes against:0 Abstentions:0
<meetingology> Motion carried
<Laney> congrats!
<barry> congrats roadmr!
<roadmr> \o/ awesome, thanks folks!
<roadmr> and thanks for the thorough interview, lots of food for thought and material to review
<barry> #topic Ubuntu Contributing Developer Applications
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Contributing Developer Applications
<barry> none today
<bdrung> roadmr: congrats :)
<barry> #topic MOTU Applications
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: MOTU Applications
<barry> none today
<barry> #topic Ubuntu Core Developer Applications
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Core Developer Applications
<barry> none today
<barry> #topic next meeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: next meeting
<barry> january 7th 2013, 1900 utc
<barry> bdrung: you're up next for chair
<bdrung> barry: i was already
<bdrung> (we skipped you, because you weren't there)
<barry> oops :)
<barry> i guess that's why i did 2 in a row for penance :)
<barry> cody then, with backup from Laney
<barry> #topic aob
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: aob
<barry> any other business for today?
<Laney> haven't seen cody around much lately
<Laney> is he still active?
<barry> that's a good question.  i can send him an email
<Laney> probably worth a gentle poke
<barry> #action barry to ping cody
<meetingology> ACTION: barry to ping cody
<Laney> so, I guess NYE isn't going to happen :-)
<barry> on that note...
<Laney> ah, jan 7th
<barry> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Mon Dec 17 14:57:39 2012 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes (wiki):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-12-17-14.01.moin.txt
<meetingology> Minutes (html):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-12-17-14.01.html
<barry> thanks everyone
<Laney> i don't remember deciding that but fine
<Laney> merci
<barry> Laney: yeah, we discussed at the last meeting
<Laney> you mean the world carries on without me?
<Laney> a devastating revalation
<micahg> hrm, so, we're off "schedule" again with the 3 week time frame...
<micahg> but we can discuss that elsewhere
<micahg> thanks barry
<mdeslaur> \o
<jdstrand> hi!
<sarnold> pong
<tyhicks> Hello!
<jdstrand> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Mon Dec 17 18:04:30 2012 UTC.  The chair is jdstrand. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
<jdstrand> The meeting agenda can be found at:
<jdstrand> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/Meeting
<jdstrand> [TOPIC] Announcements
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Announcements
<jdstrand> thanks to Christian Kuersteiner (ckuerste) provided a debdiff for lucid for pgbouncer (LP: #1083414)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1083414 in pgbouncer (Ubuntu Raring) "DoS-Vulnerability in pgbouncer" [Undecided,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1083414
<jdstrand> Your work is very much appreciated and will keep Ubuntu users secure. Great job! :)
<jdstrand> [TOPIC] Weekly stand-up report
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Weekly stand-up report
<jdstrand> I'll go first
<jdstrand> I've got a short week this week-- off Thu and Fri
<jdstrand> I'm on community
<jdstrand> I plan to look at an old apport/apparmor hardening update
<jdstrand> I also hope to look at some audits and tick off various things off my todo list
<jdstrand> mdeslaur: you're up
<mdeslaur> I'm in the happy place this week
<mdeslaur> I just published a few updates
<mdeslaur> and I plan on doing some merges
<mdeslaur> I have a short week as I'm off starting on thursday at noon
<mdeslaur> and I'll look at some other CVEs, time permitting
<mdeslaur> that's it from me
<mdeslaur> sbeattie: you're up
<sbeattie> I have a very short week this week, as I am on holiday starting tomorrow
<sbeattie> (I'll be available and sporadically checking irc/email)
<sbeattie> Otherwise, I'm continuing to work on apparmor display manager stuff
<sbeattie> that's it for me. micahg?
<mdeslaur> sbeattie: hehe, you must not have felt like getting up this morning :)
<micahg> I've got more webkit, patch piloting, and hopefully Chromium if qengho tracks down the issues he's working on
<micahg> that's it
<micahg> tyhicks: ping
<tyhicks> I'm working on an embargoed item
<tyhicks> I'll be working on the apparmor kernel policy interface work item, as well
<tyhicks> I should also take a look at the outstanding eCryptfs kernel patches sent to me recently since the kernel merge window will close this week
<tyhicks> I'm working all week
<tyhicks> that's it for me
<tyhicks> jjohansen: you're up
<doko> sarnold, fyi, the one issue that the gcc trunk build was broken with ssp is now fixed
<sarnold> doko: excellent, thank you :)
<jdstrand> jj isn't here
<doko> now reenabling again format security
<jdstrand> sarnold: you're up
<sbeattie> doko: \o/
<tyhicks> oh yeah, sorry
<sarnold> I'm on triage this week
<jdstrand> I think he is working on getting 2.8 alpha together and the base labeling patches done before the break
<jdstrand> (he should be here most of the week as well)
 * jdstrand is done
<jdstrand> sarnold: sorry
<sarnold> I've been reading and re-reading the bugzilla report from dwmw2 and trying to re-create the problem on my laptop
<sarnold> I'd like to recreate the problem in a way that leads to reproducers that could be added to QRT
<jdstrand> sarnold: is that a gcc thing?
<sarnold> (dwmw2's configuration is _highly_ specific to his use, and isn't easy to recreate... I've found that the dnsmasq spawned by juju seems ideal at showing the problem...)
<jdstrand> ah, dnsmasq
<sarnold> jdstrand: ah, no, sorry, dnsmasq
<sarnold> I'm currently poking at using the 'dummy' interfaces because the ethernet aliases don't have the correct 'bind to interface' properties that a 'real' interface would have, and I want them separate from my physical interfaces...
<sarnold> I think I'm going to be using tcpdump, tcprewrite, and tcpreplay to fiddle with the packets, though I'm not 100% confident that tcpreplay will let me send to a 'wrong' ip for a given interface.
<sarnold> the patch itself is surprisingly small for the effort though; I feel like dnsmasq is important enough to get right to put in this time, but wouldn't mind be persuaded to just do the update.
<jdstrand> sarnold: hmm, you might check out scapy
<sbeattie> sarnold: hrm, is this something where testing in a multi-interfaced vm would make more sense?
<sarnold> sbeattie: ah, it could.
<mdeslaur> sarnold: you can look at the instructions for quagga for examples on multi-vm testing instructions
<sarnold> I was hoping to stick with dummy just so that it would be easier to put into qrt tests -- something that could be configured and run entirely on one host, you know?
<mdeslaur> sarnold: or isc-dhcp
<sarnold> mdeslaur: cool, thanks. :)
<jdstrand> sarnold: one host is definitely nice. there are some tests scripts (libvirt, krb5, openldap (iirc)) that can be given an extra argument to connect to another server
<jdstrand> which is a totally acceptable fallback
<jdstrand> sarnold: do you have more to report?
<sarnold> jdstrand: no, that's it. thanks.
<jdstrand> [TOPIC] Highlighted packages
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Highlighted packages
<jdstrand> The Ubuntu Security team will highlight some community-supported packages that might be good candidates for updating and or triaging. If you would like to help Ubuntu and not sure where to start, this is a great way to do so.
<jdstrand> See https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/UpdateProcedures for details and if you have any questions, feel free to ask in #ubuntu-security. To find out other ways of helping out, please see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/GettingInvolved.
<jdstrand> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/ircd-ratbox.html
<jdstrand> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/dracut.html
<jdstrand> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/xymon.html
<jdstrand> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/libapache2-mod-auth-openid.html
<jdstrand> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/pnp4nagios.html
<jdstrand> [TOPIC] Miscellaneous and Questions
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Miscellaneous and Questions
<jdstrand> Does anyone have any other questions or items to discuss?
<jdstrand> mdeslaur, sbeattie, micahg, tyhicks, sarnold: thanks!
<jdstrand> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Mon Dec 17 18:28:14 2012 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes (wiki):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-12-17-18.04.moin.txt
<meetingology> Minutes (html):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-12-17-18.04.html
<tyhicks> thanks!
<mdeslaur> thanks jdstrand
<sbeattie> jdstrand: thanks!
<sarnold> thanks jdstrand :)
<micahg> thanks jdstrand
<doko> sarnold, sbeattie, no, the format-security issue is still thre
<doko> there
<sbeattie> doko: oh, okay.
#ubuntu-meeting 2012-12-18
<arosales> Hello
<smoser> o/
<jamespage> smoser, arosales: I think we agreed last week that the next meeting would be after xmas
<arosales> o/
<jamespage> +3 weeks
<arosales> ah ok
<smoser> good deal.
<jamespage> atleast that is what I read here - http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2012/12/11/%23ubuntu-meeting.txt
<jamespage> wiki is wrong
<smoser> that did not get rendered into https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/Meeting though.
 * arosales will update https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/Meeting with the next meeting time
<smoser> yeah.
<smoser> thanks
<jamespage> cheerio!
 * jamespage waves
<arosales> have a great Christmas and Happy new year all!
 * arosales waves
<roaksoax> \o/
<jimbaker> happy holidays everyone!
 * nlsthzn starts looking for a good spot to sit near the tea and cakes...
<nlsthzn> o/ nuvolari feeling better?
<nlsthzn> :p
<nuvolari> ah
<nuvolari> some life
<nuvolari> yes, thanks nlsthzn
 * nlsthzn often lurks here for the free food
<Kilos> evening all
<inetpro> lol
<inetpro> good evening
<jolish> evening!
<kbmonkey> hello!
 * chilicuil waves
<mazal> Evening everyone
<fetova> \o
<magespawn_> evening all
<nlsthzn> o/ al
<nlsthzn> *all
<nandof> \o hello to all
 * Banlam greets
<nuvolari> good evening :)
<Toluxero> Hi everyone!
<Toluxero> Good evening :)
 * nuvolari waits for the Ubuntu-ZA pom-pom girls
<Banlam> are you going to put maaz in a dress?
<nlsthzn> whoo hooo :p
<nuvolari> that could work!
 * nandof sitting next to the lurks, passing the popcorn :)
<nuvolari> I wonder how maaz would feel
 * nlsthzn sees popcorn and moved closer
<magespawn_> cocooncrash might not be too happy about it
 * inetpro roflol
<nuvolari> slush-puppy anyone?
<nuvolari> welcome superfly
<superfly> :-)
<nlsthzn> so this loco walks into a channel...
<superfly> hahaha
 * nuvolari sense gossipping
<nlsthzn> >.>
 * kbmonkey senses food, searches, finds a green jelly.
 * nlsthzn wonders if kbmonkey is going to share
 * chilicuil welcome ubuntu-mx members https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=btPJPFnesV4 
<maiatoday> czajkowski: will there be a LoCo council meeting here this evening?
<fetova> xD
<nlsthzn> alo ubuntu-mx members, where are you hiding?
<Toluxero> xD
 * fetova raises hand
<chilicuil> we are all over the place
<fetova> lol
<nlsthzn> two loco's in one channel... is this a mexican stand-off >.<
<nuvolari> we need an ice-breaker
 * nuvolari bites on an icecube
<Toluxero> xD
<nandof> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=btPJPFnesV4 ubuntu mex is in the house xD
<jolish_lunch> o/
<nlsthzn> ubuntu-za is in the house http://youtu.be/9bZkp7q19f0
<chilicuil> lol!
<nandof> lol! nlsthzn
<nuvolari> lol
<fetova> nlsthzn: xDD
<nuvolari> doing it gangnam-style \o/
<fitoschido> "Gangnam Style" with Hyuna is even more hilarious
<nlsthzn> Even Rocky would have been better if he used this song
<Toluxero> lollol nlsthzn
<nlsthzn> fitoschido: her voice will end us
<nuvolari> where's my invisible horsy?
<nuvolari> Coyote ugly?
<jolish_lunch> <action> sees a dust ball roll across the hall... nlsthzn
<nuvolari> the monkey dropped his kb :-/
<nuvolari> noooo
<nlsthzn> that is one more down :(
<nuvolari> ok, I'll sit and shoosh in the corner
<nlsthzn> we are loosing the cheering section
<Kilos> wb kbmonkey
<nuvolari> think he was looking for his correct mask
<nuvolari> wb kbmonkey
<nlsthzn> jolish_lunch: you are doing it wrong...
<kbmonkey> oops, wrong keyboard shortcut :p
<nlsthzn> haha
<nlsthzn> yes alt+f4 isn't what you are looking for
 * nuvolari performs a dramatic drumroll with even more dramatic silence thereafter
 * chilicuil hide some snacks into his jacket and some other into its mouth
<itnet7> maiatoday: There will be an LC meeting, but I think we've must up due to the time change
<maiatoday> oh ok
<itnet7> I know that I didn't realize it was already UTC 20:00
<itnet7> Well... 20:11
 * fitoschido was discovered changing the clocks... oops
<nlsthzn> http://youtu.be/Nj628ufciSc
 * nlsthzn isn't so worried that it is already passed 20:00 UTC... what is the bummer is that 20:00 UTC = tomorrow local time 
<itnet7> Sorry about that nlsthzn !
<nlsthzn> itnet7: it is all good... worse thing that happens is i fall asleep :p
<maiatoday> itnet7 do you have any idea what the time schedule will be, I'll tell the people on our channel
<czajkowski> thought the meeting is later on
<itnet7> maiatoday: I am trying to get a hold of the rest of the council, the rest of the council should be here in 40 or so minutes
<itnet7> czajkowski: time change
<czajkowski> ah
<maiatoday> ok thanks itnet7
<itnet7> Yeah I didn't realize it either
<czajkowski> right well I'm here and SergioMeneses is
<czajkowski> huats_: and coolbhavi send apologies
<czajkowski> so we can start if you like
<itnet7> Well, I suppose we can kick it off now
<itnet7> Yeah +1
<SergioMeneses> huats_, czajkowski itnet7 \o
<kbmonkey> we're a patient bunch czajkowski and SergioMeneses :)
 * nlsthzn lurks... 
<czajkowski> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Tue Dec 18 20:19:38 2012 UTC.  The chair is czajkowski. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
<czajkowski> aloha and sorry for the confusion
<SergioMeneses> kbmonkey, :)
<itnet7> Thanks czajkowski !
<czajkowski> #link https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LoCoCouncil/Agenda
<czajkowski> so we'll start with the Ubuntu ZA loco
<czajkowski> #topic Re approval of Ubuntu ZA loco
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Re approval of Ubuntu ZA loco
<maiatoday> we are ready :)
<inetpro> \o/
<czajkowski> #link https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ZATeam/ReApprovalApplication2012
<nuvolari> whoot
<SergioMeneses> where is ubuntu-za?
<czajkowski> thanks for coming folks
<maiatoday> we are in south africa
<Kilos> SergioMeneses, we are here
 * nlsthzn waves....
 * superfly raises his hand
<maiatoday> I am the contact for ubuntu-za SergioMeneses
<czajkowski> hiya so care to tell ius about your team
<magespawn_> here
<czajkowski> maiatoday: hi
<czajkowski> how are things going in the loco ?
 * inetpro wonders whether highvoltage even realises that we're here for re-approval
<maiatoday> Our LoCo is spread out over the whole country
<maiatoday> so we have pockets of people who meet online and who try to organise local regional events
<czajkowski> nods
<czajkowski> like many locos
<maiatoday> we have release parties and ubuntu hours
<maiatoday> also we have managed to get a distribution system going with regional contacts for the DVDs
<nuvolari> 3 main regions I'd say?
<itnet7> Nice!
<maiatoday> there are about 15 people who are regional contacts
<SergioMeneses> :O
<czajkowski> wow you've been busy http://loco.ubuntu.com/teams/ubuntu-za/events/history
<SergioMeneses> great
<maiatoday> I usually send an email on the mailing list just to make sure the regional contacts are still happy to get DVDs and update the list for each release
 * superfly didn't think they'd been terribly busy
<maiatoday> This also helps to connect the LoCo as a whole I have found
<maiatoday> do you have any specific questions?
<czajkowski> maiatoday: can you tell us how you've done the regional contacts bit
<czajkowski> I'd like to hear more about this
 * inetpro agrees with superfly, we have lot's more to do
<maiatoday> first a mailing list ping with a cutoff date
<maiatoday> then people send me their info
<czajkowski> nods
<czajkowski> cool
<maiatoday> I get the box of DVDs and make up parcels for everybody on the list
<SergioMeneses> sounds really good... micahg, has your team some problem? or something to share with us?
<maiatoday> then each person has to add their info to the website and look out on the mailing list if anyone needs CDs
<czajkowski> maiatoday: how have you found getting people involve in the loco, easy, do people look to get more involved.
<maiatoday> this has been interesting, I was very active for a while then I became busy
<maiatoday> we had a bit of a slump and then people just volunteered and started doing stuff
<maiatoday> so in a way it was good that I was busy
<SergioMeneses> maiatoday, like all of us ;)
<highvoltage> inetpro: hey there, I didn't but thanks for the poke :)
<nuvolari> most of us are busy, but we try hard to build the loco :)
<inetpro> highvoltage: wb
<Kilos> lo highvoltage
<maiatoday> so now it seems that more people have tried doing things like chair monthly meetings and doing reports
<superfly> highvoltage: o/
<maiatoday> which means we have more involved people
<itnet7> hey there highvoltage \o/!
<czajkowski> maiatoday: so rotating activities seems to be a good ting to do
<maiatoday> rotating is great
<kbmonkey> when someone is awol there is someone else to pick up the pace.
<nuvolari> yeah, spread the load worked wonders
<maiatoday> and it's more fun
<nuvolari> we also have mentors that guide us newbies to run tasks
<magespawn_> builds skills too
<czajkowski> is there any issues or stuff you've stuggled with ?
<highvoltage> inetpro, superfly, Kilos, maiatoday: hey everyone! I won't add too much noise since I haven't been involved at all, but it's awesome to see that all of you are keeping it alive and going over there!
<inetpro> we need more official members
<maiatoday> also I think it is healthy in  a LoCo for members to see new people are encouraged to do things, so new people feel confident
<czajkowski> inetpro: offical in what way ?
<czajkowski> maiatoday: is there anything we the loco council can do to help you guys?
<maiatoday> I was  worried when we had a bit of a slump but it all turned around
<itnet7> czajkowski: official ubuntu membership
<maiatoday> I don't think so at the moment, we have good momentum at the moment
<nuvolari> from my perspective the greatest struggle is still the fact that in my area we're quite far apart, so running get-togethers are harder to accomplish, but we made progress the last couple of months
<tumbleweed> I think sometimes there needs to be a bit of a gap for people to see that they need to step up and get involved
<inetpro> czajkowski: we need more members to take part in here on a regular basis for example
<czajkowski> #voters SergioMeneses itnet7 czajkowski
<meetingology> Current voters: SergioMeneses czajkowski itnet7
<czajkowski> #vote please vote on the reapproval of Ubuntu Za loco
<meetingology> Please vote on: please vote on the reapproval of Ubuntu Za loco
<meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (private votes don't work yet, but when they do it will be by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0 to me)
<itnet7> +1 Excellent Job!
<meetingology> +1 Excellent Job! received from itnet7
<czajkowski> +1 great work and loved the team reports!
<meetingology> +1 great work and loved the team reports! received from czajkowski
<SergioMeneses> +1 great!!
<meetingology> +1 great!! received from SergioMeneses
<czajkowski> #endvote
<meetingology> Voting ended on: please vote on the reapproval of Ubuntu Za loco
<meetingology> Votes for:3 Votes against:0 Abstentions:0
<meetingology> Motion carried
<nlsthzn> \o/
<czajkowski> well done folks!
<maiatoday> :D
<inetpro> wow, all done!?
<nlsthzn> well done guys... you are awesome!
<mazal> :D
<SergioMeneses> maiatoday, inetpro if you need something, please let us know :D
<SergioMeneses> congrats!
<nuvolari> \o/ whoot!
<kbmonkey> thank you :)
<inetpro> thanks guys
<maiatoday> We will thanks SergioMeneses
<nuvolari> thank you everyone :>
<itnet7> Good job!!
<mazal> Thank you guys
<Kilos> ty
<nlsthzn> thanks to the council for your time :)
<czajkowski> #topic Mexico loco approval
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Mexico loco approval
<fitoschido> Congrats!
<maiatoday> good job ubuntu-za
<Toluxero> Congrats! :)
<czajkowski> #link https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuMxTeam/ApprovalApplication2012
<SergioMeneses> hello ubuntu-mx
<nlsthzn> good luck to ubuntu-mx
<Toluxero> Hello SergioMeneses :)
 * fitoschido waves
<fetova> o/
<chilicuil> ubuntu-mx power \o xD
<Toluxero> Ubuntu-mx is ready :)
<itnet7> Toluxero: Please tell us about your team
<SergioMeneses> #link https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuMxTeam/ApprovalApplication2012
<Kilos> night all. thanks alot
<czajkowski> Kilos: hiya how are things going with your team
<Toluxero> hi itnet7
<itnet7> Hey there!
<czajkowski> who's the team contact folks?
<SergioMeneses> chilicuil, are you the voice of your team'?
 * czajkowski must fix the wiki page and add back in the team contact to the form 
<chilicuil> it's Toluxero , SergioMeneses
<SergioMeneses> ok
<chilicuil> but we're all here to support it
<czajkowski> Toluxero: hey so care to tell us about the loco?
<SergioMeneses> Toluxero, hello
 * fitoschido does a drum-roll :P
<itnet7> Toluxero: SergioMeneses speaks spanish if it will help
<Toluxero> Ok gracias :)
<itnet7> though you're probably typing away ;-)
<Toluxero> ubuntu MÃ©xico es el equipo local de Ubuntu en nuestro paÃ­s
<Toluxero> este tiene una historia un poco larga entre ella dos intentos previos de de AppApp
<chilicuil> ubuntu Mexico is the local ubuntu team in our country
<itnet7> Thanks chilicuil !
<SergioMeneses> chilicuil, ++
<Toluxero> no muy fructuosos, es por eso que hemos estado trabajando en la difusiÃ³n de ubuntu y mÃ¡s proyectos para la comunidad en nuestro paÃ­s
<chilicuil> we've a long history, we've already tried twice to become a formal team
<fitoschido> and it has already applied twice to this since its inception 6 years ago
<SergioMeneses> I see
<Toluxero> como podrÃ¡n ver en nuestra AppApp, Hemos trabajado ultimamente con una comunidad enfocada a la capital del paÃ­s Ubuntu-DF
<chilicuil> we failed in our previous attemps, but that only motivated us to keep organizated more events
<SergioMeneses> Toluxero, pero ustedes trabajan tambien con gente de otras ciudades?
<fitoschido> like the last ubuntu release party with our friends at ubuntu df
<chilicuil> as you can see in our appapp we've been working with other more local teams, such as ubuntu-df
<fitoschido> i advocate in my state, Aguascalientes
<Toluxero> SergioMeneses: SÃ­, pero el equipo mÃ¡s formalizado en el interior del paÃ­s es de Ubunt-DF
<Toluxero> ubuntu-df*
<Toluxero> los ubuntu members dentro del paÃ­s estamos en distintos puntos de MÃ©xico
<fitoschido> ubuntu members are spread all over the country
<itnet7> I think you've done a really great job so far, The only thing I would like to mention, is that it's hard to learn more about what your team has done without up to date team reports
<Toluxero> Estado de MÃ©xico, DF, Aguascaliantes, y ademÃ¡s otros usuarios que aÃºn no son ubuntu members apoyan al equipo a travÃ©s de la distribuciÃ³n de CD's
<Toluxero> pequeÃ±as reuniones
<czajkowski> it is a lovely wiki application!
<SergioMeneses> I like the videos!
<Toluxero> e inclusive se han realizado algunos Hangouts que se han caÃ­do por el exceso de usuarios
<itnet7> Definitely outstanding work, the pictures are great, and the wiki is awesome
<chilicuil> itnet7: we use the loco directory to post our events, what do you mean when u say we dont have up to date reports?
<fitoschido> thanks!
<czajkowski> http://loco.ubuntu.com/teams/ubuntu-mx/events/history
<fitoschido> we have weekly g+ hangouts as well
<czajkowski> fitoschido: oh nice!
<fitoschido> those "Hour Dev: Sharing development" are a kind of reports on which chilicuil narrates his motu adventure
<fitoschido> and teaches us how to fix bugs and the like
<SergioMeneses> fitoschido, it is a very good idea! you can use it in the bug-jam
<fitoschido> Altrough I talk about localization
<fitoschido> each user talks about their area of expertise
<itnet7> chilicuil: one of the things we used to look at were: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuMxTeam/TeamReports
<SergioMeneses> fitoschido, chilicuil tienen algun problema en el team? algo en lo que el loco-council les pueda colaborar?
<itnet7> I guess you guys stopped doing those reports and began use the Loco Team Portal instead
<fitoschido> SergioMeneses, no se me ocurre nada en particular.
<itnet7> The Ubuntu Weekly news used to get most of it's content from Team Reports
<chilicuil> SergioMeneses: no, justo ahora nada, todo corre bien
<fitoschido> itnet7: yep, that was the case
<chilicuil> itnet7: well, then we'll start creating those reports
<fitoschido> we can use the new community-announce list for the weekly news, I guess
<SergioMeneses> chilicuil, please dont forget the reports :D
<itnet7> chilicuil: Awesome, It would just be a very good encouragement
<SergioMeneses> fitoschido, sure!
<itnet7> and we (I) am working on trying to help make it easier with using the LTP
<itnet7> hopefully that will be soon
<fitoschido> we overlooked it, it seems :P
<itnet7> no worries
<SergioMeneses> itnet7, rocks!
<itnet7> Outstanding
<czajkowski> anything else you want to tell us folks?
<czajkowski> #vote please vote on the Ubuntu MX approval
<meetingology> Please vote on: please vote on the Ubuntu MX approval
<meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (private votes don't work yet, but when they do it will be by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0 to me)
<fitoschido> we're really looking forward to the approval, but if we don't get it, we'll still work advocating and promoting Ubuntu in this developing country.
<chilicuil> I dont think so, however if u have any other question, we'll be glad to answer it
<czajkowski> +1 well done folks!
<meetingology> +1 well done folks! received from czajkowski
<SergioMeneses> chilicuil, fitoschido Toluxero les recuerdo que cualquier inconveniente lo hagan saber :D estamos para ayudarlos :D
<itnet7> +1 Awesome job!!!
<meetingology> +1 Awesome job!!! received from itnet7
<SergioMeneses> +1 awesome!!!
<meetingology> +1 awesome!!! received from SergioMeneses
<Toluxero> SergioMeneses: Gracias!
<chilicuil> SergioMeneses: lo haremos, gracias
<inetpro> well done guys!
<Toluxero> Prometo ya no ponerme nervioso!
<czajkowski> #endvote
<meetingology> Voting ended on: please vote on the Ubuntu MX approval
<meetingology> Votes for:3 Votes against:0 Abstentions:0
<meetingology> Motion carried
<czajkowski> well done folks
<SergioMeneses> congrats ubuntu-mx
<fitoschido> Thanks a lot! :)
<czajkowski> #action czajkowski update LP with the teams expirary dates
<meetingology> ACTION: czajkowski update LP with the teams expirary dates
<nandof> thanks thanks thanks!!! :)
<fetova> weeeeeeeeeeeee!!!!
<itnet7> I
<SergioMeneses> if you have some problem, please let us know
<czajkowski> SergioMeneses: itnet7 who wants to do the team reports :)
<Toluxero> thanks!
<itnet7> I will
<Toluxero> :D
<fitoschido> Toluxero: don't get nervous next time :P
<SergioMeneses> itnet7, rocks!
 * chilicuil gives away pulque to the people in here
<czajkowski> #action itnet7 team report
<meetingology> ACTION: itnet7 team report
<SergioMeneses> I work on the bugs
<czajkowski> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Tue Dec 18 20:53:09 2012 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes (wiki):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-12-18-20.19.moin.txt
<meetingology> Minutes (html):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-12-18-20.19.html
<itnet7> +1 SergioMeneses !
<fitoschido> :D :D
<Toluxero> fitoschido: lo tendrÃ© en cuenta
<itnet7> Thanks for coming out everyone!
<SergioMeneses> always is nice to see you
<fitoschido> Thanks to you, guys!
<Toluxero> Thank you! :D
<BobJonkman1> No LoCo Council meeting?
<czajkowski> BobJonkman1: it was last hour
<BobJonkman1> czajkowski: Hm.  Then the Fridge calendar is off by an hour for me
<xnox> google calendars pro-tip #1: it does not handle summertime right for everyone =) random people find that out eventually =)
<BobJonkman1> xnox: Still odd, as it's not summer..
<BobJonkman1> I'm looking at https://www.google.com/calendar/render?eid=NmZwYThkdDAxZG12ZHMyYWw0cmZlZGk4ZjhfMjAxMjEyMThUMjEwMDAwWiBqNXE4NW1taTZ1anZqdGlpNXMxbjNsaTVpb0Bn&ctz=Etc/GMT&pli=1&sf=true&output=xml
<xnox> BobJonkman1: well some countries switch for summer & some for winter.
<BobJonkman1> xnox: I suppose if the Google calendar appointment was entered while it was summer time, it may not be displaying correctly now that it's no longer summer time.
<BobJonkman1> Or if it was entered by someone who is now in summer time...
<BobJonkman1> Regardless, I'm sad to have missed the meeting. So I'll catch up on the minutes and the log...
#ubuntu-meeting 2012-12-19
<kokoye2007> hello
<kokoye2007> who is know today 12:00 meeting ?
<kokoye2007> Hello
<kokoye2007> Joeb454,
<dholbach> kokoye2007, if you are referring to 12:00 UTC, that's in 2h40m (try 'date -u' in a terminal)
<kokoye2007> :(
<kokoye2007> dholbach, Ok
<kokoye2007> cyphermox, Hi
<kokoye2007> Pendulum, Hi
<kokoye2007> Dear Sitting Member Today meeting or not ?Destine Pendulum cyphermox head_victim fenris  amachu Ekushey micahg
<kokoye2007> Hello all
<kokoye2007> Hello head_victim  :(
<head_victim> kokoye2007: we're just trying to assemble the board, there are two of us here, we need 4.
<kokoye2007> ok head_victim
<head_victim> !rmb
<ubottu> PING! beuno, cjohnston, cyphermox, Destine, ejat, head_victim, hggdh, IdleOne, iulian, micahg, n0rman, Pendulum, PabloRubienes. Meeting time.
<kokoye2007> thx head_victim i am wait this time :D
<Destine> I am here.
<kokoye2007> thx Destine & head_victim :S
<head_victim> kokoye2007: not that it helps much but your testimonials are looking heaps better
<kokoye2007> txh head_victim when you free
<kokoye2007> our country Feb-2013 at 3 city - Barcamp
<kokoye2007> but i can't member this time again @_@ head_victim :(
<head_victim> kokoye2007: we're waiting on one more, we have someone to fill in if need be.
<kokoye2007> thx head_victim
<kokoye2007> you can also see flickr.com/groups/ubuntu-mm
<cjohnston> kokoye2007: you may want to edit your page a little.. there are some conflicts
<kokoye2007> yes
<kokoye2007> bcz some one is edit pages is long open and publish. so 2 comment is lost< so back and after this guy publish
<kokoye2007> you can check in history
<cjohnston> I understand.. I'm not saying its a problem, just saying it would look cleaner :-)
<kokoye2007> itlulin <John Major, Zaw Min Aung> itlulin
<kokoye2007> thx cjohnston
<kokoye2007> how can i do that ?
<cjohnston> kokoye2007: are they all in order and correct, just it says conflict?
<kokoye2007> now edit that
<cjohnston> kokoye2007: if you click edit, you can move things around and remove the lines that say conflict
<kokoye2007> thx you cjohnston :)
<cjohnston> np
<kokoye2007> now clear
<head_victim> Nice work
<head_victim> One last one in case we get some more
<head_victim> !rmb
<ubottu> PING! beuno, cjohnston, cyphermox, Destine, ejat, head_victim, hggdh, IdleOne, iulian, micahg, n0rman, Pendulum, PabloRubienes. Meeting time.
<kokoye2007> next 5 day - 2 day short course again
<kokoye2007> sorry coming 27-28 and 29-30 at 2 day course , 2 time
<kokoye2007> Ubuntu for Everyone (free course)
<kokoye2007> if you want any suggestion ? head_victim cjohnston
<head_victim> kokoye2007: just make sure there's enough people helping out to make it enjoyable for all :) It's never as much fun when one person does it all.
<kokoye2007> :)
<head_victim> kokoye2007: sorry for the issues we've been experiencing. We're goign to have to work out something because you've obviously taken on board the advice and your wiki is now very well prepared.
<kokoye2007> thx head_victim
<kokoye2007> when we can try
<kokoye2007> now i subscribe
<kokoye2007> Member Wiki Pages
<kokoye2007> :|
<kokoye2007> thx head_victim cjohnston Destine
<head_victim> kokoye2007: I'll try to get something raised internally to try and work something out
<cjohnston> sorry kokoye2007
<kokoye2007> nvm dear i can try for ubuntu since from 2009 :P so 1 month is nvm
 * slangasek waves
<stokachu> o/
<jodh> o/
<ev> hi
<slangasek> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Wed Dec 19 16:00:59 2012 UTC.  The chair is slangasek. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
 * stgraber waves
<slangasek> [TOPIC] Lightning round
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Lightning round
<slangasek> $ echo $(shuf -e barry doko stgraber jodh ev bdmurray slangasek ogra cjwatson xnox stokachu)
<slangasek> ogra stgraber barry cjwatson xnox jodh doko stokachu slangasek bdmurray ev
<ev> win!
<slangasek> ogra's busy sunning himself on a ski slope somewhere, so stgraber
<stgraber>  - Upstart
<stgraber>   - 3 days sprint (Monday -> Wednesday)
<stgraber>   - Got prctl branch merged.
<stgraber>   - libnih 'as' type fix merged and uploaded.
<stgraber>   - Various fixes to the tests to allow for reliable daily builds on virt and non-virt builders.
<stgraber>   - Got upstart-dbus-events merged.
<stgraber>   - Wrote new upstart-event-bridge, currently waiting for review/merge.
<stgraber>  - Container
<stgraber>   - Usual code reviews.
<stgraber>   - Release 0.9~alpha1 (and 0.9~alpha2 because of some communication problems ;))
<stgraber>   - Built a custom kernel to test for the uevent fix when network devices are moved to other namespaces.
<stgraber>   - Sent fix for LXC on nexus7 to the kernel team.
<stgraber>   - Started working on some changes to LXC upstream to allow building with alternate libc implementation (testing with bionic).
<stgraber>  - Other
<stgraber>   - Spent some time debugging a rather odd biosdevname issue, looks like it was a firmware issue on the specific machine.
<stgraber>   - Did some UEFI SecureBoot tests, running a locally built and signed shim.
<stgraber>   - Patch pilot on Friday.
<stgraber>  - TODO
<stgraber>   - Implement user socket for upstart session (to be used before dbus is started).
<stgraber>   - Cleanup and send a bunch of lxc patches for review (split libcap, bionic support, ...).
<stgraber>   - Go through the isc-dhcp and resolvconf bugs.
<stgraber>   - Try to apply redhat's fiberchannel patchset to our isc-dhcp.
<stgraber>  - Holidays
<stgraber>   - I'm working tomorrow (European time) and then will be off until the 2nd of January.
<stgraber> (DONE)
<barry> debian bug 695707 (virtualenv broken, with fixes for python2.7 #695958 and 3.3 #695959 proposed).  emacs bug 12765.  worked on whoosh for py3 (needs upstream fixes).  debugging friends service crashes for internal customer. done.
<ubottu> Debian bug 695707 in libpython2.7-stdlib "[libpython2.7-stdlib] Breaks python-virtualenv" [Normal,Open] http://bugs.debian.org/695707
<ubottu> bug 12765 in nautilus (Ubuntu) "Use full resolution thumbnails on desktop" [Wishlist,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/12765
<cjwatson> Mostly on leave and/or in a virus-induced haze this week.  On leave for the rest of the year starting Thursday afternoon.
<cjwatson> Fixed incorrect colours in d-i images (bug 1089331).
<ubottu> bug 1089331 in cdebconf (Ubuntu) "ubuntu server d-i installer is blue, not purple" [Medium,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1089331
<cjwatson> Test-built all libssl-dev reverse-build-dependencies with a couple of different candidate patches for making libssl-dev Multi-Arch: same:
<cjwatson>  - Moving all headers to /usr/include/$(DEB_HOST_MULTIARCH)Â caused far too many failures (67).
<cjwatson>  - Moving just <openssl/opensslconf.h> causes two failures in unstable, both of which are easily tractable.  I've filed bugs with patches for both.
<cjwatson> Working again on britney/autopkgtest integration, with Jean-Baptiste's help.  Not sure if I'll have something by EOY but we'll see.
<cjwatson> Working on powerpc image changes requested by Ben Collins.
<cjwatson> ..
<xnox> * upstart sprint:
<xnox>  - finish xdg config dirs branch, now merged
<xnox>  - progressing on overrides from any config dir
<xnox>  - fixing unit tests & daily builds / adt
<xnox>  - refactor fixes from lp:ubuntu/libnih & propose them into lp:libnih
<xnox> Sprint progress at http://pad.ubuntu.com/j5DPzIp5KP
<xnox> * started cross-building fixes spree (3.5 so far, but it's fun)
<xnox> ..
<jodh> * Upstart Sprint: http://pad.ubuntu.com/j5DPzIp5KP
<jodh> â
<ev> surely that's cheating
<stokachu> different area codes so its ok
 * jodh rummages for generate-random-buzzwords.pl...
<stokachu> at least thats what ive been told
<doko> - updated armhf cross toolchain
<doko> - built arm64 and powerpc biarch cross toolchains
<doko> - rewritten gcc control.m4 to make it easier to use runtime libs for the target arch, both for 4.7 NS 4.8
<doko> - fixing gcc-4.8 (upstream) build and install issues.
<doko> - GCC 4.8 ppa now ready for the test rebuild
<doko> (done)
<stokachu> - dput uploaded (bug 633109) needs approval
<stokachu> - packaged firefox-esr 10/17 (this took up all of my time)
<stokachu> - applied for Contributing Developer http://wiki.ubuntu.com/AdamStokes (testimonies welcomed :D)
<stokachu> - Started backport process for sssd/sudo to Precise because of the new sudo ldap+caching features
<stokachu>   introduced. Still going through the rdeps list for sudo to see what needs to be tested.
<ubottu> bug 633109 in dput (Ubuntu Precise) "No progress bar for sftp uploads" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/633109
<stokachu> - I expect high visibility bugs from me to pick back up at beginning of new year.
<stokachu>  
<stokachu> ..
<slangasek> stokachu: hmm, you're only applying for contributing developer?
<slangasek> I thought this was for core dev
<stokachu> slangasek: micah recommended i did that
<slangasek> but contributing developer gives you no upload rights :)
<stokachu> slangasek: what membership board should i apply to
 * xnox thought contributing is a bit on the low side. Motu or core-dev is better.
<slangasek> well, we can harrass micahg (and stgraber) about this afterwards
<slangasek> stokachu: the membership board is the DMB in all cases
<xnox> and ogra and barry =)
<stokachu> slangasek: ok cool just point me in the right direction b/c i wasn't totally sure
<stokachu> slangasek: it was initially posted to the main membership board
<barry> stokachu: or ppu
<ev> so what do you get by being a contributing developer if you don't get upload rights? A nice fruit basket?
<barry> (per-package upload rights)
<slangasek> but it doesn't seem optimal to me to go through the process for contributing developer if you're going to be applying for core-dev shortly regardless
<slangasek> ev: Ubuntu Membership
<slangasek> fruit basket optional
<ev> ...
<stokachu> slangasek: looks like i can just add my name to the core dev in the agenda
<ev> oh dear
<stokachu> applying is the same it looks like
<barry> stokachu: different secret handshake
<xnox> stokachu: yeah process is the same for all developer levels.
<stgraber> stokachu: yeah, same board, different agenda item. Just move your application to coredev.
<stokachu> stgraber: do i need to resend out an email to the list?
<slangasek> stokachu: yes; though we should figure out why micahg is still steering you away from core-dev, since he gets to vote on the question of whether you get in ;)
<stokachu> my original one said core dev
<stgraber> stokachu: coredev will give you ubuntu membership automatically, so no need to first apply for contributing developer.
<stgraber> stokachu: just reply to your e-mail to devel-permissions saying that you instead want to be considered for coredev.
<barry> he prepares harder questions for coredev applicants :)
<slangasek> stokachu: if informal polling of the DMB suggests you're not ready for core-dev, you probably want to find out what more they want to see from you, and focus on that so you don't have to go through the process twice
<stokachu> ok
<stgraber> stokachu: I haven't looked at your recent history, but last I checked the only thing that was missing was the "sustained" part which has definitely be solved since ;)
<slangasek> I guess it's my turn to spam the channel
<stgraber> (as I remember you last poking me 6 months or so ago)
 * xnox did go contributing -> core-dev jump. But I did apply for contributing dev way back when i was "green"
<slangasek>  * Following up on Samsung laptop EFI bricking; looking like we may want to disable samsung-laptop module as a workaround
<slangasek>  * UEFI Secure Boot updates.  Latest upstream version of gnu-efi+shim give a black screen and a reboot.  Still tracking down.
<slangasek>  * Doing my "fix 5 package cross-builds" work item; for one of them, fixed valac for use as a cross-build-dep
<slangasek>  * Working on gobject-introspection porting to python3, possibly tackling the cross-build-dep problem after that
<slangasek> (done)
<slangasek> ev:
<ev> oh hi
<cjwatson> slangasek: did you have a look to see whether any of the packages in question improved in the latest cross-builder run?
<ev> - Going on holiday tomorrow. I'll be back in January. Have a wonderful holiday
<ev>   and New Year!
<ev> - The retracers have been moved to autorestart hell, as they were bothering
<ev>   webops too much on the weekends. This was mostly because a Cassandra node was
<ev>   taken down, which was causing timeouts. Still, we'll need to make the
<ev>   retracers more resilient to database failure if we want to get them back into
<ev>   a normal service operation.
<ev>   - The queue is still massive (~6-8k per arch). We've started to remove some
<ev>     cores from it and Tom is working on getting Rabbit queue size hooked up to
<ev>     graphite (http://graphite.engineering.ubuntu.com). Trying to get everything
<ev>     ready for prodstack as quickly as possible to better remedy this.
<ev> - Spent much of the week getting our charms and daisy in shape for deployment
<ev>   to prodstack, following the advice that Tom gave in RT 58019.
<ev>   - Fought gunicorn to the death. Discovered the hard way that gunicorn from
<ev>     precise is busted. Backported from Quantal.
<ev>   - Refactored our separate wsgi scripts for receiving crash reports and core
<ev>     dumps, unifying them under a single wsgi service and merging in the S3
<slangasek> cjwatson: I didn't save the 'before' view :)
<ev>     support along the way. This makes running them under the gunicorn
<ev>     subordinate charm a lot easier.
<ev>   - Taught the daisy charm to handle multiple Cassandra nodes coming and going.
<ev>   - Daisy is *almost* ready. I just need to wire the Apache frontends to the
<ev>     HAProxy instances. Everything else seems to be working. Getting the
<ev>     retracer and Errors charms updated should be largely a matter of copying
<ev>     code around.
<ev> - Worked a bit with Brian to dig at why getBugSubscriberPackages was not
<ev>   returning anything. Brian ultimately tracked down the root cause.
<ev> (done)
<cjwatson> slangasek: or "succeeded", even
<ev> err graphite.engineering.canonical.com
<slangasek> any questions on status?
<slangasek> [TOPIC] AOB
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: AOB
<slangasek> anyone have any plans for the end of the world on Friday?
<cjwatson> I was planning to go to the pub tomorrow evening, if that counts :P
<slangasek> https://plus.google.com/u/1/103242523324036094862/posts/AKBdNSnyrv5
<barry> +1
<stokachu> lol
<slangasek> :-)
 * xnox is flying the day after, so I will be packing and doing last minute shopping.
<stgraber> :)
<stokachu> as long as we dont get an emp from a solar flare and i can still get on the internet im good
<slangasek> ok, sounds like that's it for the year then :)
<slangasek> happy holidays, everyone!  don't drink too much eggnog
<slangasek> (drink just the right amount of eggnog)
<slangasek> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Wed Dec 19 16:21:28 2012 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes (wiki):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-12-19-16.00.moin.txt
<meetingology> Minutes (html):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-12-19-16.00.html
<ev> eww
<ev> thanks!
<stokachu> happy holidays n stuff
<stgraber> thanks!
<xnox> cheers!
<stokachu> cya
<barry> thanks!
<cjwatson> merry Christmas :)
<jodh> cheers
<kokoye2007> head_victim,
<kokoye2007> some one is send to me
<kokoye2007> cjohnston,
<kokoye2007> hello cjohnston ?
<cjohnston> hey kokoye2007
<kokoye2007> cjohnston, now we can ? or not
<kokoye2007> dinner is over now :D
<kokoye2007> thx for your mail
<cjohnston> kokoye2007, we went a different route... We are doing this by email for you... So by 2200 UTC on Friday 12/21 the vote will be complete, that way you don't have to stick around tonight and don't have to come to the next meeting
<kokoye2007> 22:00 meeting ?
<cjohnston> no.. no meeting.. 2200 UTC is the deadline for the board members to vote... We will email you after 2200 UTC on Friday to let you know the results
<kokoye2007> aww thx sir
<cjohnston> So you don't have to come back for another meeting
<cjohnston> we will take care of it all and let you know ASAP
<kokoye2007> real thx cjohnston
<kokoye2007> our UTC is +6:30
<cjohnston> I know.. its like 2330 for you now?
<kokoye2007> so 22:00 + 6:30 = 4:30
<kokoye2007> yes
<kokoye2007> but i ever sleep 1:00 or 2 am
<kokoye2007> thx for your kind and regard
<cjohnston> Not a problem. Sorry it's been such a difficult road for you.
<kokoye2007> i wanna become Ubuntu Member bcz of other user to improve to Ubuntu Member and Developer
<kokoye2007> start from me
<cjohnston> absolutly
<kokoye2007> sorry disconnect
<kokoye2007> cjohnston,
<cjohnston> np
<kokoye2007> thx u cjohnston
<cjohnston> not a problem
<kokoye2007> i am waiting news from there
#ubuntu-meeting 2012-12-20
<dholbach> #startmeeting Community Council meeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Thu Dec 20 17:00:10 2012 UTC.  The chair is dholbach. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Community Council meeting Meeting | Current topic:
<dholbach> Welcome everyone to the last CC meeting in 2012.
<czajkowski> Aloha
<Gwaihir> o/
<cprofitt> hello
<dholbach> Today we are going to catch up with the Forums Council and the Translations team. Do we have somebody from either of the two teams here?
<dholbach> I got a reminder email from somebody in the translations team today, so they should be aware. I'll go and see who I can round up. Can somebody reach out to some FC folks?
<cprofitt> pinged the forums irc channel
<dholbach> thanks cprofitt
<czajkowski> cool I was about to try and find folks via https://launchpad.net/~forum-council/+members#active
 * dholbach lights the bat^WCC signal
<cprofitt> looking at who is on in their irc channel I do not see anyone from the FC
<dholbach> hey kelemengabor :)
<dholbach> I'd say we start with the Translations team then. :-)
<kelemengabor> hi dholbach, all
<dholbach> #topic Catching up with the Translations team
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Community Council meeting Meeting | Current topic:  Catching up with the Translations team
<dholbach> kelemengabor, how are you doing?
<dholbach> thanks a lot for making a bit of time
<czajkowski> kelemengabor: ello
<cprofitt> hello kelemengabor
<kelemengabor> well, not much ubuntu-wise, sadly. I was busy with other tasks :(
<kelemengabor> btw, isn't dpm the translations team lead? :)
<dholbach> We've been doing these catch-ups with various teams in the Ubuntu community for 2 cycles now and at UDS the suggestion to talk with the translations community as well was brought up and I mailed the team after UDS, it seems like this has fallen through the cracks, probably holiday-related, which is understandable
<dholbach> kelemengabor, I pinged him, but he might be in a call just now
<dholbach> kelemengabor, what was your gut feeling of the last release and how the translations community dealt with it?
 * trijntje is on his way home and will read back
<kelemengabor> last release... it was a little buggy to my taste (compared to Precise), also we are quite lacking dpm's leadership. without someone pushing things forward, things tend to not move forward...
<czajkowski> nods
<dholbach> kelemengabor, how do things generally work in the translations team? are there milestones? do teams get notified about missing translations?
<dholbach> I must admit that I never dived too deep into translations work, but was always impressed that so many strings get translated every cycle and people sometimes just spontaneously pick things up
<Gwaihir> kelemengabor, might be a good opportunity to open up a little bit the ubuntu-translation-coordinators team too, am also part of it, but have less less time lately, new people might help out
 * cprofitt nods to Gwaihir 
<czajkowski> Gwaihir: ah yes I'd like to see that happening also
<teolemon> there's been a recent focus on tacking the Software Centre Descriptions
<teolemon> aka the DDTP
<kelemengabor> no, we don't have milestones. there are things that need to be done at certain times in the release cycle (opening up translations, setting up langpack export&build, cleaning the import queue) but these are not formalized
<teolemon> tackling
<dholbach> hello teolemon
<teolemon> hello dholbach
<Gwaihir> teolemon, on that front, is there also coordination with upstream/Debian? they have their own set-up to handle that...
<kelemengabor> Gwaihir: sure. but without organization and mentoring, they'd be doomed :)
<dholbach> I'm not quite sure I understand it yet, but is the problem you're seeing that these notifications (with specific related tasks) are missing?
<teolemon> DDTP on Debian side was down for a couple of months
<kelemengabor> dholbach: what do you mean by notifications?
<teolemon> and we were told there was some sync with Debian
<teolemon> could never check if it was true
<Gwaihir> kelemengabor, true, the wiki also needs to be cleaned up a little bit... :-/
<kelemengabor> probably we should have a blueprint to keep these in order, but we don't
<kelemengabor> have any
<dholbach> kelemengabor, the way I imagined things, I thought that all the individual translations teams would need a heads-up about what needs to be translated at which time, etc
<teolemon> but we've started using a semi-automated approach using Google Translator Kit and crowdsourcing to tackle the sheer amount of work
<kelemengabor> Gwaihir: yes, the wiki needs a lot of love
<kelemengabor> dholbach: I see. no, these are team-internal tasks, that need to be done once for all the languages.
<kelemengabor> as per notifying teams, we have some announcements, but only a few
<kelemengabor> usually, they keep an eye on the statistics page
<kelemengabor> that tells everything
<kelemengabor> (or should :))
<dholbach> ok, that sounds like a good start already :)
<teolemon> same here
<teolemon> the statistics page was a way to motivate everybody
<teolemon> even if it listed upstream packages
<dholbach> is there some team internal discussions and exchange between the teams about what works well for them?
<teolemon> which led to beginners retranslating upstream
<kelemengabor> dholbach: there were, in the precise cycle, bi-weekly calls
<teolemon> we're starting to do so, as we discover issues
<teolemon> for instance
<kelemengabor> not anymore, though
<teolemon> we share the same hatred for the infamous launchpad timeout bug :-)
<dholbach> would irc meetings maybe work better?
<kelemengabor> and those worked well, so it would be good to resurrect those
<czajkowski> teolemon: many of those timeout bugs are being fixed
<kelemengabor> dholbach: it's not about the medium
<teolemon> yes
<dholbach> but somebody setting them up?
<kelemengabor> exactly. that was dpm.
<kelemengabor> also these were UTC meetings, so not open for everyone
<dholbach> that's an obvious speciality of the translations world
<dholbach> maybe it'd make sense to have rotating times
<dholbach> and there I think (especially if you have many people), IRC might work better
<kelemengabor> we talked about setting up stuff, making translators life easier...
<kelemengabor> https://trello.com/board/translations-team/4f621c87861db54230b9ca39
<kelemengabor> like this
<teolemon> also, if those meetings could include some person related to Launchpad Translations
<dholbach> maybe it'd be worth bringing up the idea of regular meetings on the team mailing list again
<teolemon> i think it would help to integrate translations closer into software
<dholbach> yes, and invite external people who should be able to help
<kelemengabor> teolemon: maybe, but I heard that there is no dedicated LP Translations dev team anymore.
<czajkowski> kelemengabor: that is true there isn't
<teolemon> :-/
<czajkowski> LP doesn't have dedicated teams, it has squads that work on different projects
<dholbach> still it should be possible to get a representative every now and then, I guess :)
<dholbach> like if there's something pressing
<czajkowski> and there is a maintenance squad currently working on critical bugs
<Gwaihir> dholbach, possible, but the only people I know that were really working on LP Translations, and are still somewhat around are Danilo and Jeroen
<teolemon> I guess translation isn't something that fails in a spectacular way
<kelemengabor> dholbach: on the regular meetings: we had some open meetings on IRC a few years ago, like Lucid-time... those were okay too
<czajkowski> perhaps like dholbach suggests having regular meetings again may help bring the team together and get more interest in
<kelemengabor> teolemon: not yet. but have you heard about the langpack update for Quantal?
<kelemengabor> me neither. and this is a problem.
<dholbach> well that certainly was insightful to me so far, but maybe we should have another meeting where we discuss things and find out together what we can do, but yes, I agree an internal team meeting to collect some ideas might be a good start
<teolemon> nope
<kelemengabor> that may escalate quickly... :(
<cprofitt> is there a regular blog post from the translations team to planet?
<teolemon> i don't know if the point was raised already
<czajkowski> can you elaborate on "langpack update for Quantal?
<teolemon> but the fact that david was shifted to applications is also scaring me a little bit
<kelemengabor> cprofitt: dpm does posts about translations to the planet, but rarely
<dholbach> czajkowski, feed updated translations into the stable quantal release
<czajkowski> ah thanks dholbach
<teolemon> we had some import issues before the release of quantal
<cprofitt> kelemengabor: it sounds like the internal meeting is important to identify areas of need... and that a little exposure (planet) could help attract some new folks...
<teolemon> and loads of tiny issues that need really good attention and knowledge of the merge process and all that stuff
<kelemengabor> czajkowski: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Translations/OneiricOcelot/ReleaseSchedule - we had this for Oneiric, but not for Precise or Quantal
<kelemengabor> cprofitt: absolutely
<teolemon> indeed
<dholbach> to me it looks, like we should have another catch-up with the translations team, maybe after some internal discussion - what do you think? :)
<kelemengabor> and we have this: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Translations/LanguagePackUpdatesQA/LanguagePackUpdateScheduleTemplate
<teolemon> listing all the bugs and pain points
<kelemengabor> this is a well designed machinery, but it would need an operator
<cprofitt> +1 dholbach
<czajkowski> ah
<teolemon> and ranking them by time lost
<dholbach> kelemengabor, or a team of operators :)
<czajkowski> so I do know for Precise there was some issues opening up Precise for translations which may have had an affect to the schedule
<czajkowski> https://answers.launchpad.net/launchpad/+question/211651  this is now waiting for be ack'd as far as I can see for raring
<kelemengabor> dholbach: sure. preferably of the kind that does not graduate or marry in a year :)
<dholbach> there's always this thing called life around all the Ubuntu stuff :)
<czajkowski> heh indeed
<dholbach> I'll take an action to mail the translations team again about a new date in 2013
<dholbach> we have no word back from the Forums Council, so we might have to reschedule them as well
<cprofitt> yes, we should reschedule with them
<kelemengabor> czajkowski: yep, that's it. assigned to dpm, but seems he does not have time...
<teolemon> there's no intend to replace David's full time as translation coordinator/developper, right ?
<czajkowski> kelemengabor: we/me can reassign it to another person to open up the raring translations
<czajkowski> but we've not been asked to do so
<trijntje> hi, just dropping in, I'd have to agree that we are a bit at a loss without dpm ;)
<dholbach> I feel there's always going to be times like this, where you have a transition and you need to figure out what can be done to keep the train rolling.
<czajkowski> nods
<cprofitt> +1 dholbach
<czajkowski> well was it explained what was happening so that a transition could be put in place?
<dholbach> but a few of the things which were mentioned earlier could be done by a team of translators as well - like posting on planet for example
<czajkowski> nods
<dholbach> in fact it'd make things a bit more lively if there's posts from multiple people and teams rather than just one guy
<czajkowski> dholbach: +1
<dholbach> or organising a meeting
<cprofitt> yes, it is good to see multiple people from teams...
<dholbach> but I appreciate that losing a dedicated full-time person can be a shock
<kelemengabor> czajkowski: can you reassign to the ubuntu-translations-coordinators team?
<teolemon> especially on the technical side
<teolemon> i'm not a developper
<cprofitt> posting on the planet. I think it helps give people perspective and allows people to identify the effort as a true team effort... gives them more people to contact if they are interested too
<dholbach> Do you feel that there's anything the CC could do to help? Apart from cloning David? :-)
<teolemon> and implementing fuzzy in lp, fixing the timeout, opening raring early, making sure the upstream translations are imported quickly to avoid duplication and stuff like that requires technical mojo
<dholbach> it's great we're having this discussion right now as I haven't heard much about the translations community in the last time and feel like I learned a lot
<kelemengabor> teolemon: I think Santa is not here right now... :P
<teolemon> lol
<teolemon> :-)
<czajkowski> kelemengabor: I can if that is what is the best thing to do
<dholbach> haha
<kelemengabor> dholbach: good question. I can't think of anything right now, maybe later. until then, please clone David :).
 * cprofitt looks for cloning instructions
<czajkowski> teolemon: we;ve down to 170 critical bugs so hopefully they will be done soon in the new year
<dholbach> haha, I'll make sure to get into the lab later on
<teolemon> also wanted to point this out
<teolemon> http://lite.framapad.org/p/ddtpUbuntu
<teolemon> we've been starting this
<teolemon> because we noticed people value translated descriptions better
<dholbach> cool
<teolemon> translations add a polished look
<teolemon> and increase the perceived value of ubuntu
<teolemon> both on the app side
<teolemon> as well as on the doc side
<teolemon> where normalized doc
<teolemon> when translated
<trijntje> also on the ddtp front: soon all packages will be sorted based on popcon, so translators can work on the descriptions of the most popular packages first without external tools
<teolemon> saves a lot of time and ressources
<czajkowski> I've changed the asignee of https://answers.launchpad.net/launchpad/+question/211651  to ~ubuntu-translations-coordinators
<dholbach> Would it be OK for you to maybe have a think as a team and we get back together in the new year to spend some time brainstorming about what can be done and where the priorities should lie? That's at least something the CC could offer in terms of help.
<trijntje> that would be nice
<dholbach> all right, I'll take an action to mail the translations team and the forums council about a new date
<teolemon> kelemengabor, trijntje: http://lite.framapad.org/p/ubuntutranslationscoordination
<kelemengabor> dholbach: sure, we can have an IRC meeting to discuss what should/can be done and who is interested
<teolemon> let's start right now ;-)
<dholbach> kelemengabor, cool - I think that'd help lots - also to get a feel for priorities
<dholbach> cprofitt, czajkowski, any more questions from you?
<czajkowski> no I think it'll be good to hear from the team post xmas and maybe once thye've had a chance to think about things and how we can help
<czajkowski> thanks for coming
<dholbach> trijntje, teolemon, kelemengabor: thanks a lot for joining us here
<dholbach> #topic Any other business?
<trijntje> dholbach: sure, thanks for your time, happy holidays
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Community Council meeting Meeting | Current topic:  Any other business?
<dholbach> and the same to you :)
<cprofitt> thanks to all for coming.
<trijntje> (barring the end of the world ofc)
<teolemon> thanks a lot
<dholbach> I don't have any other business - our Trello looks in shape and there's nothing on the agenda page
<dholbach> anyone else?
<czajkowski> narp
<czajkowski> Have a lovely Christmas folks :)
<dholbach> all right, that's it then :)
<dholbach> enjoy the holidays, have a great start into 2013
<dholbach> and thanks for all the great work you all put into Ubuntu!
<dholbach> big hugs!
<dholbach> thanks everyone
<dholbach> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Thu Dec 20 17:54:44 2012 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes (wiki):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-12-20-17.00.moin.txt
<meetingology> Minutes (html):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-12-20-17.00.html
#ubuntu-meeting 2012-12-23
<kokoye2007> cjohnston, thx bro
<kokoye2007> head_victim, thx
<cjohnston> kokoye2007: no problem. I take it you got your notification of the results.
#ubuntu-meeting 2013-12-16
<bdrung_work> !dmb-ping
<ubottu> bdrung, ScottK, Laney, micahg, barry, tumbleweed, stgraber: DMB ping
<bdrung_work> can someone let me in our channel?
<Laney> hi
<Laney> can't you auth to nickserv?
<bdrung_work> not with this nick name.
<stgraber> bdrung_work: try now
<bdrung_work> stgraber: thanks
<laney_> just checked: /msg nickserv identify nick password works
<Laney> anyway. ScottK is supposed to chair according to wiki
<bdrung_work> i didn't tried to pass my nick there too
 * barry waves to ScottK 
<IdleOne> yup, you can identify to your account no matter the nick you are using (provided that nick is not already registered by someone else)
<mitya57> o/
<mitya57> Is the DMB meeting happening?
<Laney> I think there should be enough people
<Laney> the order of the chairs is ScottK tumbleweed stgraber barry bdrung_work
<barry> Laney: so i guess that would make stgraber up next?
<stgraber> #startmeeting DMB
<meetingology> Meeting started Mon Dec 16 15:17:16 2013 UTC.  The chair is stgraber. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | DMB Meeting | Current topic:
<stgraber> #topic review of past action items
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | DMB Meeting | Current topic: review of past action items
<stgraber> micahg to restructure PPU teams.
<stgraber> I'm assuming nothing changed there, carried to next meeting.
<stgraber> Discussion of skipping of Dec 30 2013 meeting on ML
<stgraber> this was discussed and the meeting of the 30th will be skipped.
<stgraber> #topic Per Package Uploader Applications
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | DMB Meeting | Current topic: Per Package Uploader Applications
<bdrung_work> +1 for skipping the Dec 30 meeting
<barry> next meeting after today is 13 jan
<stgraber> #topic Dmitry Shachnev for PPU of: python-markdown, python-keyring, python-secretstorage, python-docutils, python-qt4, sip4, sphinx and the QT5 packageset
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | DMB Meeting | Current topic: Dmitry Shachnev for PPU of: python-markdown, python-keyring, python-secretstorage, python-docutils, python-qt4, sip4, sphinx and the QT5 packageset
<mitya57> o/ again
<stgraber> hi mitya57, can you please introduce yourself and your application?
<mitya57> Of course
<mitya57> I am Dmitry Shachnev, user of Ubuntu since some ancient version, developing since ~Natty. I am interested in a big bunch of stuff, including Python, Qt, JS, GNOME and KDE.
<mitya57> For the packages listed (^), I am not the primary maintainer.
<mitya57> Most of them (except sphinx and sip4 I think) are now in sync with Debian.
<mitya57> s/not/now/
<mitya57> For some of them I am also upstream co-developer (i.e. for python-keyring)
<mitya57> And I also contribute to upstream Qt (have made ~13 commits)
<mitya57> Well, I think that will be enough, the details are in the application
<mitya57> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DmitryShachnev/PPUApplication
<Riddell> mitya57: what have you done with sip4 and pyqt?
<mitya57> Riddell: ScottK asked me to help with maintaining them, I think I've done one sip4 upload and two python-qt4 uploads
<Laney> mitya57: thanks
<Laney> are you in the Debian teams for all of these things?
<mitya57> I am also maintaining pyqt5, but it is in universe, so I can already upload it in Ubuntu
<mitya57> Laney: yes
<barry> mitya57: why ppu and not core-dev yet?
<Laney> lolz, tumbleweed is your AM
<mitya57> barry: I don't know :)
<barry> :)
<barry> mitya57: for the record, i've been very happy with all your contributions to python.  thanks!
<Riddell> mitya57: any plan for sip 4.15.3?
<Laney> regarding your "Things I don't like" - not all of it is due to a lack of communication
<mitya57> Riddell: oh, it just needs a trivial merge
<mitya57> Will do when I get upload rights :)
<Riddell> groovy, mitya57 gets my +1 :)
<Laney> Riddell in joining the DMB shocker
<Laney> anyway, sometimes there are general technical / design differences
<Laney> and there are pockets of great collaboration even within communities like GNOME imo, but it's obviously quite a way from perfect
<Laney> what do you think we could do there?
<mitya57> Laney: actually, that what-i-dont-like-in-ubuntu section is quite difficult to fill in
<Laney> I do like what you put though
<Laney> as someone who calls out not-coordinated work and not-forwarded patches from time to time
<mitya57> I think we should get more people testing unstable GNOME and pointing out issues, and discussing these issues with upstream
<Laney> a lot of people are just resigned to the projects being different these days
<Laney> the collaboration on the library level is better
<Laney> but Ubuntu GNOME is good in this regard too
<mitya57> Yes, but the Gtk's CSDs stuff looks like nobody tested it under Unity before 3.10 was released
<mitya57> (Gtk is a library :P)
<Laney> yeah I was thinking of that
<Laney> quite a few changes came from the pre-upload testing
<Laney> still, the basic problem is that we were testing something after it was already baked
<Laney> ahem, I'll stop rambling
<Laney> anyone else?
<Laney> well, I'm ready to vote :-)
<bdrung_work_> no, everything is answered already.
<bdrung_work_> i am ready to vote.
 * barry too
<Laney> stgraber:
<stgraber> Laney: 1sec
<stgraber> #vote Dmitry Shachnev for PPU of: python-markdown, python-keyring, python-secretstorage, python-docutils, python-qt4, sip4, sphinx and the QT5 packageset
<meetingology> Please vote on: Dmitry Shachnev for PPU of: python-markdown, python-keyring, python-secretstorage, python-docutils, python-qt4, sip4, sphinx and the QT5 packageset
<meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (private votes don't work yet, but when they do it will be by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0 to me)
<Laney> +1
<bdrung_work_> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from Laney
<meetingology> +1 received from bdrung_work_
<barry> +1 [keep going!  i hope to see core-dev app soon]
<meetingology> +1 [keep going!  i hope to see core-dev app soon] received from barry
<stgraber> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from stgraber
<stgraber> #endvote
<meetingology> Voting ended on: Dmitry Shachnev for PPU of: python-markdown, python-keyring, python-secretstorage, python-docutils, python-qt4, sip4, sphinx and the QT5 packageset
<meetingology> Votes for:4 Votes against:0 Abstentions:0
<meetingology> Motion carried
<stgraber> #action stgraber to get webops to add the new PPU and add qt5 membership
<meetingology> ACTION: stgraber to get webops to add the new PPU and add qt5 membership
<Laney> you can add the membership yourself
<Laney> unless I'm parsing that wrong
<Laney> mitya57: congrats!
<mitya57> barry: UCD application in my todo list after becoming a DD :)
<mitya57> Laney & everybody: thanks!
<barry> mitya57: \o/  hopefully it won't take you as long for DD as it did for me :)
<Laney> UCD is something else
<stgraber> Laney: right, I'll add the membership myself
<Laney> (contributing developer)
<Laney> beware of applying for that
<Laney> :P
<dholbach> mitya57, congratulations!
<mitya57> dholbach: danke!
<dholbach> :)
<mitya57> Laney: names conflict, that is
<Laney> everyone just says core-dev
<stgraber> #topic Graham Inggs for MOTU
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | DMB Meeting | Current topic: Graham Inggs for MOTU
<ginggs> hi
<stgraber> ginggs: hey there, can you introduce yourself and your application please?
<ginggs> I'm Graham Inggs, I've been an Ubuntu user since 2007/2008 and have been contributing since 2012
* hubbard.freenode.net changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<dholbach> ginggs, sorry for not getting to update your application - just for the completeness' sake I'd like to point out that I was VERY happy with Graham's work, if there were ever issues, Graham was very quick to resolve them, coordinate with Debian and Upstreams, huge +1 from me
<mitya57> Let me also give a +1 to ginggs if you don't mind :)
<barry> ginggs: hi.  in your endorsements section, there is a criticism about "over-eagerness to sru".  what's your criteria for deciding whether to sru a fix or not?
<ginggs> If it affects a lot of users or the fix is trivial, I'll try for an SRU
<barry> ginggs: do you think the effort to sru fixes is too high, too low, or just right?
<ginggs> I would say it's just right; it's not so easy as to make one want to SRU everything, and it's not so difficult as to make one avoid it altogether
<Laney> Do you keep up with the testing status of things you have SRUed?
<Laney> Sometimes things can linger in -proposed
<ginggs> yes, I usually give other people a chance to test and if no responses after 7 days I will test again myself and change the verification status
<barry> ginggs: i notice the conflict regarding sru's between your endorsement feedback and your comment about "what i like least in ubuntu".  how do you resolve these two viewpoints?
<ginggs> I don't think it will make me want to SRU any less, but if I had upload rights at least my uploads wouldn't be taking up the sponsors team's time
<bdrung_work> ginggs: did your SRUs had any regressions?
<ginggs>  i don't believe so
<stgraber> ginggs: are you subscribed to ubuntu-devel-announce?
<ginggs> not yet, no
<stgraber> can you please make sure you are?
<ginggs> will do
<stgraber> also. Some packages in universe are seeded and require extra care at specific times of the cycle. Can you tell me how to check whether a package is seeded or not, when to be careful about those and how to check what images may be affected?
<ginggs> can check with seeded-in-ubuntu and need to be careful with seeded packages after beta freeze
<ginggs> not sure offhand how to check which image
<stgraber> not only after beta freeze, there are milestones before that (such as this week)
<stgraber> seeded-in-ubuntu is pretty reliable at telling you which image
<stgraber> everyone ready to vote?
<Laney> yup
<stgraber> #vote ginggs for MOTU
<stgraber> meetingology seems dead, so don't wait for it :)
<Laney> +1
<barry> +1
<bdrung_work_> +1
<tumbleweed> +1 [ sorry I missed the rest of the meeting ]
<stgraber> +1
<stgraber> #endvote
<stgraber> #action stgraber to add ginggs to the relevant teams
<dholbach> ginggs, congratulations! :)
<tumbleweed> ginggs: \o/
<stgraber> the chair for our next meeting (January 13th) will be tumbleweed
<stgraber> #topic AOB
<stgraber> anything?
<Laney> it should be ScottK since he missed this one
<stgraber> oh, good point
<stgraber> I'll just move myself at the back of the rotation, that should do it
<barry> stgraber: yep
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | DMB Meeting | Current topic: AOB
<stgraber> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Mon Dec 16 16:24:33 2013 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes (wiki):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2013/ubuntu-meeting.2013-12-16-15.17.moin.txt
<meetingology> Minutes (html):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2013/ubuntu-meeting.2013-12-16-15.17.html
<barry> stgraber: thanks!
<stgraber> oh and now meetingology works... :)
<tumbleweed> well, he missed a bit
<Laney> thanks!
<Laney> & yay for new motus
<tumbleweed> yeah, that's getting rare
<Laney> ginggs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/New (please update it with new things as you learn them)
<jdstrand> hi!
<mdeslaur> \o
<mdeslaur> hi
<tyhicks> hello
<jdstrand> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Mon Dec 16 16:46:00 2013 UTC.  The chair is jdstrand. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
<jdstrand> The meeting agenda can be found at:
<jdstrand> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/Meeting
<jdstrand> [TOPIC] Announcements
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Announcements
<jdstrand> Due to the EOY leave, the next security team meeting will be 2014/01/06
<jdstrand> [TOPIC] Weekly stand-up report
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Weekly stand-up report
<jdstrand> I'll go first
<jdstrand> I'm on triage this week
<jdstrand> I'll be here all week this week!
<jdstrand> (try the veal)
<mdeslaur> \o/
<jdstrand> but, I'm off the next two weeks
<mdeslaur> slacker
<mdeslaur> :)
<jdstrand> hehe
<jdstrand> I've got some pending updates
<jdstrand> and a few work items around apparmor-easyprof-ubuntu that I am working on
<jdstrand> I dug into oxide testing last week and started developing policy for apparmor policy version 1.1 for it
<jdstrand> chris is off til the end of the year, so I'll mention that the packaging is all together for it, and it builds for all archs
<mdeslaur> oh, that's awesome :)
<jdstrand> it fails at runtime on armhf which we think is due to a compile-time option surrounding neon
<jdstrand> the navigation api is reviewed and I think will be committed soon
<jdstrand> so it is really coming along. I've got a todo this week to communicate this to other stakeholders (and an oxide meeting too)
<jdstrand> I think that's it for me
<jdstrand> mdeslaur: you're up
<mdeslaur> I'm on community this week
<mdeslaur> I have a couple of updates pending, I'm in the final stages of testing
<mdeslaur> and I'll continue going down the list, as usual.
<mdeslaur> that's about it from me
<mdeslaur> hrm, sbeattie isn't here
<mdeslaur> tyhicks: you're up
<tyhicks> I've got some carry over from last week
<tyhicks> I got hung up for a little too long on an issue where the emulator fails the executable stack test of test-kernel-security.py
<tyhicks> I spent quite a bit of time on it and I've convinced myself that it is an emulator bug because everything works fine on maguro
<jjohansen1> ickky
<jdstrand> tyhicks: interesting-- can you file it if you haven't already? it would be good to get the emulator fixed so that other teams don't get tripped up
<tyhicks> I've built final goldfish, manta, and mako kernels and need to do some quick testing and then send off the patches
<tyhicks> jdstrand: sure, that's a good idea
<jdstrand> tyhicks: oh, maguro, interesting-- do we have access to that device on the team?
<jjohansen1> jdstrand: ? I've got one
<tyhicks> oh no
<tyhicks> I was wrong about the code name
<tyhicks> I meant grouper
<jdstrand> jjohansen1: ah right, you have nearly everything :)
<jdstrand> ok
 * tyhicks has another shot of coffee
<jdstrand> heh
<tyhicks> after that, I'll be on user data encryption
<jjohansen1> jdstrand: no no, please forget I ever mentioned uh, never mind ;)
<tyhicks> well, there is one problem
<tyhicks> I can't test the manta and mako kernels
<tyhicks> but I also don't want to bog down jj
<tyhicks> I think testing in the emulator is sufficient, though
<jdstrand> I have a mako. chris has a manta
<jdstrand> (though chris is off this week)
<jdstrand> tyhicks: if you need me, holler
<tyhicks> all mako and manta get are some backported yama patches since their kernel configs were already hardened correctly
<tyhicks> ok
<tyhicks> I'll think about it some more
<tyhicks> that's it for me
<tyhicks> jjohansen1: you're up
<jjohansen1> I'm working on apparmor again this week, I've got some testing work to coordinate with sbeattie around dfa and permission changes, and yes ipc work.
<jjohansen1> And I'm fixing another invalidation bug that keeps taking down anything using a compound label
<jjohansen1> so files, sockets, ..., stacking pretty much everything
 * jjohansen1 sighs
<sarnold> :(
<jjohansen1> well I think thats it from me, sarnold your up
<sarnold> I'm in the happy place this week
<sarnold> I'm all caught up on the apparmor patches (I think) so I'm moving on to the MIR audits, it's amazing how quicklyu they pile up when I'm not looking..
<jdstrand> yes...
<tyhicks> sounds like it is about time to write some more apparmor patches
<tyhicks> ;)
<jdstrand> hah
<sarnold> haha :)
<sarnold> I started reading the developer.ubuntu.com docs last night and found a handful of problems that I'll file some bugreports for.. it's amazing how much is done already :) woo.
<sarnold> I think that's me covered, jdstrand back to you
<jdstrand> sarnold: are these security bugs or just regular bugs?
<sarnold> jdstrand: regular bugs :) woot
<jdstrand> ok, good :)
<jdstrand> [TOPIC] Highlighted packages
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Highlighted packages
<jdstrand> The Ubuntu Security team will highlight some community-supported packages that might be good candidates for updating and or triaging. If you would like to help Ubuntu and not sure where to start, this is a great way to do so.
<jdstrand> See https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/UpdateProcedures for details and if you have any questions, feel free to ask in #ubuntu-security. To find out other ways of helping out, please see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/GettingInvolved.
<jdstrand> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/rawstudio.html
<jdstrand> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/nagstamon.html
<jdstrand> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/slim.html
<jdstrand> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/ruby-passenger.html
<jdstrand> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/autotrace.html
<jdstrand> [TOPIC] Miscellaneous and Questions
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Miscellaneous and Questions
<jdstrand> Does anyone have any other questions or items to discuss?
<mdeslaur> jdstrand: we need to talk about who is doing watch during the holidays
<jdstrand> mdeslaur: yeah, I added that to my todo this morning
<mdeslaur> cool
<jdstrand> mdeslaur: thanks for reminding me
<jdstrand> mdeslaur, tyhicks, jjohansen1, sarnold: thanks!
<jdstrand> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Mon Dec 16 17:14:36 2013 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes (wiki):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2013/ubuntu-meeting.2013-12-16-16.46.moin.txt
<meetingology> Minutes (html):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2013/ubuntu-meeting.2013-12-16-16.46.html
<sarnold> thanks jdstrand!
<jjohansen1> thanks jdstrand
<mdeslaur> thanks jdstrand!
<jdstrand> :)
<tyhicks> thanks!
#ubuntu-meeting 2013-12-17
<jamespage> o/
<arosales> o/
<smoser> o/
<smoser> we're waiting on rbasak.
 * smb around
<smoser> roaksoax, are you here ? if rbasak doesnt show
 * rharper is here
<smoser> fudge. next would be yolanda in rbasak and roaksoax absense.
<smoser> or someone else to just step up.
<jamespage> I see rbasak
<jamespage> o/
<rbasak> #startmeeting ubuntu-server-team
<meetingology> Meeting started Tue Dec 17 16:09:17 2013 UTC.  The chair is rbasak. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic:
<rbasak> #topic Review ACTION points from previous meeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Review ACTION points from previous meeting
<rbasak> ACTION: gaughen or jamespage or smoser: get all server blueprints represented at /topic-t-servercloud-overview.html (smoser, 16:04)
<jamespage> still outstanding
<rbasak> OK, thanks.
<rbasak> #topic T Development Opening
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: T Development Opening
<rbasak> I've changed the agenda item to "T Development" for next time.
<rbasak> Anything to note?
<jamespage> alpha-1 this week
<rbasak> #topic Server & Cloud Bugs (caribou)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Server & Cloud Bugs (caribou)
<rbasak> caribou_: hi!
<caribou_> nothing here
<rbasak> #topic Weekly Updates & Questions for the QA Team (psivaa)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Weekly Updates & Questions for the QA Team (psivaa)
<psivaa> no updates from us as well
<rbasak> Any questions for psivaa?
<rbasak> #topic Weekly Updates & Questions for the Kernel Team (smb)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Weekly Updates & Questions for the Kernel Team (smb)
<smb> nothing to report. Are there questions?
<rbasak> #topic Weekly Updates & Questions regarding Ubuntu ARM Server (rbasak)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Weekly Updates & Questions regarding Ubuntu ARM Server (rbasak)
<smoser> hm..
<smoser> go back one.
<rbasak> #topic Weekly Updates & Questions for the Kernel Team (smb)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Weekly Updates & Questions for the Kernel Team (smb)
<smoser> kernel team has *really* nice benchmark data that they're working on
<smoser> http://kernel.ubuntu.com/benchmarking/
<smoser> the data there may change formats or content, but its good too look at.
<rbasak> #topic Weekly Updates & Questions regarding Ubuntu ARM Server (rbasak)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Weekly Updates & Questions regarding Ubuntu ARM Server (rbasak)
<rbasak> I've been working on upstreaming portability patches for mongodb for armhf and arm64. This is reviewed upstream now and should land soon. Then I'll see if I can get Debian updated to a cherry-pick of the upstream patches.
<rbasak> No other updates. Any questions for me?
<rbasak> #topic Ubuntu Server Team Events
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Ubuntu Server Team Events
<rbasak> Christmas, I guess, is the reason why it's quiet.
<rbasak> Any other new upcoming events?
<rbasak> #topic Open Discussion
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Open Discussion
<rbasak> #topic Announce next meeting date, time and chair
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Announce next meeting date, time and chair
<caribou_> Ho Ho Ho
<rbasak> Due to the holidays, I propose that our next meeting should be in January when we're all back. Any objections?
<hallyn_> nope
<rbasak> So the next meeting will be at: Tue, 7 Jan 2014 16:00:00 +0000.
<rbasak> Looks like next on the chair rota is roaksoax, so he'll be chairing. I know roaksoax is on holiday now, so I'll let him know by email.
<rbasak> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Tue Dec 17 16:20:43 2013 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes (wiki):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2013/ubuntu-meeting.2013-12-17-16.09.moin.txt
<meetingology> Minutes (html):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2013/ubuntu-meeting.2013-12-17-16.09.html
<caribou_> Bye
<rbasak> Thanks all.
<jsalisbury> #startmeeting
<jsalisbury> ##
<jsalisbury> ## This is the Ubuntu Kernel Team weekly status meeting.
<jsalisbury> ##
<jsalisbury> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/Meeting
<jsalisbury> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/ReleaseStatus/Trusty
<meetingology> Meeting started Tue Dec 17 17:00:13 2013 UTC.  The chair is jsalisbury. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
<jsalisbury> # Meeting Etiquette
<jsalisbury> #
<jsalisbury> # NOTE: '..' indicates that you are finished with your input.
<jsalisbury> #       'o/' indicates you have something to add (please wait until you are recognized)
<jsalisbury> Roll Call for Ubuntu Kernel Weekly Status Meeting
<ppisati> \o/
<cking> o/
<smb> \o
<sforshee> o/
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] ARM Status (ppisati)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: ARM Status (ppisati)
<ppisati> nothing new to report this week.
<ppisati> ..
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] Release Metrics and Incoming Bugs (jsalisbury)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Release Metrics and Incoming Bugs (jsalisbury)
<jsalisbury> Release metrics and incoming bug data can be reviewed at the following link:
<jsalisbury> [LINK] http://people.canonical.com/~kernel/reports/kt-meeting.txt
<jsalisbury> ..
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] Milestone Targeted Work Items (ogasawara)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Milestone Targeted Work Items (ogasawara)
<ogasawara> [LINK] https://launchpad.net/~canonical-kernel-distro-team/+upcomingwork
<ogasawara> [LINK] http://status.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-t/canonical-kernel-distro-team.html
<ogasawara> || apw       || core-1311-kernel                || 5 work items ||
<ogasawara> ||           || core-1311-cross-compilation     || 2 work items ||
<ogasawara> ||           || core-1311-hwe-plans             || 1 work item  ||
<ogasawara> || bjf       || core-1311-dmraid2mdadm          || 1 work item  ||
<ogasawara> || ogasawara || core-1311-kernel                || 4 work items ||
<ogasawara> ||           || client-1311-xorg-general        || 1 work item  ||
<ogasawara> || sforshee  || servercloud-1311-cloud-images   || 1 work item  ||
<ogasawara> || smb       || core-1311-dmraid2mdadm          || 1 work item  ||
<ogasawara> ||           || servercloud-1311-openstack-virt || 5 work items ||
<ogasawara> || rtg       || core-1311-kernel                || 1 work item  ||
<ogasawara> ..
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] Status: Trusty Development Kernel (ogasawara)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Status: Trusty Development Kernel (ogasawara)
<ogasawara> The master branch for Trusty remains rebased on the v3.12.4 upstream
<ogasawara> stable kernel.  Our unstable branch has most recently rebased to
<ogasawara> v3.13-rc4.  Again, we don't anticipate a v3.13 based upload for Trusty
<ogasawara> until after the new year.
<ogasawara> I would also like to point out that the 12.04.4 point release was pushed
<ogasawara> out by 2 weeks from Jan 23 to Feb 6.  This will not have any impact on
<ogasawara> the kernel, we will still plan on shipping with the kernel we currently
<ogasawara> have going through -proposed.
<ogasawara> I would also like to point out that the 12.04.4 point release was pushed
<ogasawara> out by 2 weeks from Jan 23 to Feb 6.  This will not have any impact on
<ogasawara> the kernel, we will still plan on shipping with the kernel we currently
<ogasawara> have going through -proposed.
<ogasawara> -----
<ogasawara> Important upcoming dates:
<ogasawara> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/TrustyTahr/ReleaseSchedule
<ogasawara> Thurs Dec 19 - Alpha 1 (~2 days away)
<ogasawara> Thurs Jan 23 - Alpha 2 (~5 weeks away)
<ogasawara> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/PrecisePangolin/ReleaseSchedule
<ogasawara> Thurs Feb 6 - 12.04.4 Final Release (~7 weeks away)
<ogasawara> ..
<ogasawara> (damn copy and paste error)
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] Status: CVE's
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Status: CVE's
<jsalisbury> The current CVE status can be reviewed at the following link:
<jsalisbury> http://people.canonical.com/~kernel/cve/pkg/ALL-linux.html
<jsalisbury> ..
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] Status: Stable, Security, and Bugfix Kernel Updates - Saucy/Raring/Quantal/Precise/Lucid (bjf/henrix/sconklin)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Status: Stable, Security, and Bugfix Kernel Updates - Saucy/Raring/Quantal/Precise/Lucid (bjf/henrix/sconklin)
<jsalisbury> No new update this week.
<jsalisbury> ..
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] Open Discussion or Questions? Raise your hand to be recognized (o/)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Open Discussion or Questions? Raise your hand to be recognized (o/)
<ogasawara> o/
<jsalisbury> ogasawara, go
<ogasawara> I assume we'll cancel the next 2 meetings due to EOY holidays?
<jsalisbury> yes\
<smb> thumbs up :)
<ogasawara> cool
<cking> +1 that
<ogasawara> ..
<jsalisbury> Anything else for the last meeting this year?
<jsalisbury> Thanks everyone
<jsalisbury> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Tue Dec 17 17:06:31 2013 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes (wiki):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2013/ubuntu-meeting.2013-12-17-17.00.moin.txt
<meetingology> Minutes (html):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2013/ubuntu-meeting.2013-12-17-17.00.html
<jose> #startmeeting LoCo Council Meeting - December 2013
<meetingology> Meeting started Tue Dec 17 20:02:54 2013 UTC.  The chair is jose. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | LoCo Council Meeting - December 2013 | Current topic:
<jose> Hey guys! Just to keep this on record, we are not having a meeting today due to no teams presenting for (re-)verification. Thanks!
<jose> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Tue Dec 17 20:03:18 2013 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes (wiki):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2013/ubuntu-meeting.2013-12-17-20.02.moin.txt
<meetingology> Minutes (html):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2013/ubuntu-meeting.2013-12-17-20.02.html
#ubuntu-meeting 2013-12-18
<Sebastien> Good morning :)
<MooDoo> morning
<Sebastien> Is this the channel where the meeting will be held?
<MooDoo> the membership board meeting Sebastien ?
<Sebastien> yes
<MooDoo> looking at this - http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars/ yes it is :D
<Sebastien> i just want to make sure i didn't miss it.
<Sebastien> Oh, sweet :)
<MooDoo> 12:00 - 13:00
<RomelSan> Hi
<Sebastien> hi RomelSan.
<MooDoo> hello
<marcus> hi all.
<RomelSan> Hi all
<jared> !rmb
<ubottu> cjohnston, cyphermox, Destine, ejat,  hggdh, IdleOne, iulian, micahg,  Pendulum, PabloRubienes, freeflying, jared, amachu, and bkerensa. Meeting time.
<jared> Sorry, we're running a few minutes late and waiting at least one more to make quorum
<Sebastien> hmm, why is my nickname not in there?
<Sebastien> oh, i guess this is not the applicants. :p
 * Sebastien sits and watches.
<RomelSan> yep :p
<jared> #startmeeting 1200 UTC Ubuntu Membership Board
<meetingology> Meeting started Wed Dec 18 12:08:07 2013 UTC.  The chair is jared. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | 1200 UTC Ubuntu Membership Board Meeting | Current topic:
<jared> Hello and welcome to the Ubuntu Membership Review Board for the 1200 UTC meeting for December 18, 2013.
<jared> The wiki page for the Review Board is available here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Membership/Boards
<jared> We will attempt to get through all of the applicants that have added themselves to that list before today's meeting. If we are unable to make it through the entire list due to time constraints, then at the next meeting we will pick up where we left off.
<jared> The format for the meeting is as follows: We will go through the list of applicants one by one, by date of application (FIFO).
<jared> Each applicant should introduce themselves (1-5 sentences) and provide links to their Ubuntu Wiki page. After the introduction the members of the Membership Review Board will review the pages and, if needed, ask the applicant further questions.
<jared> During this time it is encouraged for other members of the community to show their support for the applicant. Do not be alarmed if the members of the Membership Review Board are quiet during this time; they are most likely reading wiki/launchpad/forum/other pages and deciding how they are going to vote.
<jared> When the board is ready to vote, they will publicly vote in the channel with either +1, 0, or -1 (for membership, abstain, and against membership, respectively). If the sum of those numbers is positive, then the applicant is now an official Ubuntu member! (feel free congratulate them!)
<jared> #voters jared cyphermox Pendulum cjohnston
<meetingology> Current voters: Pendulum cjohnston cyphermox jared
<jared> #subtopic RomelSan
<jared> #topic RomelSan
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | 1200 UTC Ubuntu Membership Board Meeting | Current topic: RomelSan
<jared> RomelSan: can you please introduce yourself to the team while we read over your application
<RomelSan> Ok
<jared> #link https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Romel%20Vera
<RomelSan> Hi, i am Romel Vera from Ecuador (south america)
<RomelSan> i work for a PC company that builds computers and sell them to schools, government, home users, small office
<RomelSan> I am in charge of building the OEM images, (Windows, Linux images)
<RomelSan> We build like 3000 computers per month
<RomelSan> I am a father, husband, i play the piano (mid level). I love to test, compare computer OSes
<jared> RomelSan: have you contributed to any teams, locos or other projects in the Ubuntu ecosystem?
<RomelSan> No, i am not an active linux developer or contributor
<RomelSan> I will join the OEM sections in 2014
<cyphermox> What has been your involvement in the Ubuntu community so far?
<RomelSan> A really support Ubuntu, but in my community
<RomelSan> i am the one who is asked about linux usage, education
<RomelSan> they sometimes make special request for computers in schools
<RomelSan> government too
<cyphermox> Have you considered joining the Ubuntu Ecuador team or had any involvement with them yet?
<RomelSan> Of course i will.
<jared> RomelSan: to me the thing is, you look liek you're seeking membership to apply to other Ubuntu teams, Ubuntu Membership is actually about recognition of significant and sustained contributes to Ubuntu and/or the community.
<jared> RomelSan: does that make sense and is that how you see it?
<RomelSan> i well, it is not to the virtual community
<RomelSan> To the ubuntu distribution and general linux. Then yes.
<RomelSan> This year in my country i shipped 36000+ PCs with Ubuntu
<jared> RomelSan: I agree you probably contribute significantly to the general linux community in your area. I also think you would be very valuable in the OEM team for Ubuntu. However as far as membership goes I think I would like to see some active participation in a loco or other team 9such as the OEM) to meet the significant and sustained requirements for membership.
<RomelSan> of course you will.
<Pendulum> RomelSan: what jared is trying to say is that we need to see that contribution *before* you apply for membership. Ubuntu Membership isn't a gateway to joining teams. You just join those and contribute to them
<RomelSan> oh, i see.
<cyphermox> RomelSan: since the purpose of Ubuntu Membership is to "reward" significant and sustained contribution to Ubuntu specifically, with not much more than an email address, we'd like to invite you to join the team and come back in a few months when you've had more involvement in the Ubuntu community, with other people in the Ubuntu Ecuador team, etc. who can vouch for you
<cyphermox> your current implication is great, just maybe a little too general to Linux
<jared> RomelSan: what we think will help the best is if we hold off on your application for now and give you some contact details to start helping out with the OEM stuff you were referring to. Then after contributions we'd love to see you back. Does that sound fair?
<RomelSan> sure, thanks.
<cyphermox> RomelSan: if ping me later, I will try to get you contacts for someone in OEM at Canonical, if that's what you meant about joining OEM sections
<jared> RomelSan: not a problem, we'll continue with the other applications and if you ping cyphermox afterwards he can put you in contact with the relevant people
<RomelSan> thanks all, will do.
<jared> #action RomelSan to be given information to help him make contact with the appropriate people. RomelSan advised to return to the membership process after showing significant and sustained contributions
<meetingology> ACTION: RomelSan to be given information to help him make contact with the appropriate people. RomelSan advised to return to the membership process after showing significant and sustained contributions
<jared> So now we'll move on
<jared> #topic marcus
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | 1200 UTC Ubuntu Membership Board Meeting | Current topic: marcus
<marcus> yes, i am here ;)
<jared> marcus: can you please introduce yourself to the team while we review your applciation
<marcus> of course, I am 37 years old and live in switzerland. I am a long term linux and ubuntu contributor. I am also the team contact for the swiss loco team
<marcus> on my wiki page, i have highlightes some contributions in the past few years
<marcus> to mention is that i have organized several ubuntu related events, here in switzerland, e.g. ubucon and release parties
<marcus> right now i am woring on my first app to get to ubuntu ;)
<jared> marcus: do you have any photos of any of the events? I see some descriptions I'd just like to get a feel for the events a littl more
<marcus> e.g. http://www.rum3ber.ch/index.php/galerie/category/119-05-ubucon13
<cyphermox> awesome!
<marcus> hehe
<jared> marcus: looks like you get a good turnout, what role did you play in the organisation of the event? Just a session, the whole thing, ??
<marcus> i am the main organizer, together with ralf.
<jared> marcus: thanks for that, I see you have some good testimonials from both Switzerland and Germany, good to see you working across borders.
<marcus> thanks
<jared> Ok I think we're ready to vote
<jared> #vote marcus to obtain Ubuntu Membership
<meetingology> Please vote on: marcus to obtain Ubuntu Membership
<meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (private votes don't work yet, but when they do it will be by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0 to me)
<Pendulum> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from Pendulum
<cyphermox> +1 nice work, keep it up ;)
<meetingology> +1 nice work, keep it up ;) received from cyphermox
<jared> +1 I see lots of good work, good testimonials and great to see you working with multiple local teams
<meetingology> +1 I see lots of good work, good testimonials and great to see you working with multiple local teams received from jared
<cjohnston> _1
<cjohnston> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from cjohnston
<jared> #endvote
<meetingology> Voting ended on: marcus to obtain Ubuntu Membership
<meetingology> Votes for:4 Votes against:0 Abstentions:0
<meetingology> Motion carried
<jared> Congratulations marcus, welcome to Ubuntu Membership
<marcus> thanks a lot
<jared> Thanks for such a well laid out application, itmade it very easy.
<Pendulum> marcus: Congrats!
<marcus> thanks
<cyphermox> congrats!
<jared> Sorry to keep it so brief but I'll now move on to the next applicant, I'd like to do our best to get through all the applications in the hour.
<cyphermox> marcus: make sure you add your blog to planet Ubuntu if you have one, it would be nice to see more from you
<jared> Is stratus_ss here?
<Sebastien> Congrats marcus :)
<jared> Ok, I'll move on to Sebastien and come back to stratus_ss if they show up
<jared> #topic Sebastien
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | 1200 UTC Ubuntu Membership Board Meeting | Current topic: Sebastien
<Sebastien> Hello :)
<jared> Hello Sebastien, can you please introduce yourself while we review your applciation
<Sebastien> Sure :)  My name is Sebastien Lemery, i am 29 years old and i live in Gatineau, Qc.
<Sebastien> I have been working in the "tech" industry since a few years now. I am a tesk cupport rep for a local ISP here. I always have got an attraction for electronics, and this is how i fell in love with ubuntu.
<Sebastien> I have tried various linux distros, but my favorite one of all time will stay Ubuntu.
<Pendulum> Sebastien: why would you like to be an Ubuntu Member?
<Sebastien> I have been hanging out on #ubuntu, #ubuntu-ca, #ubuntu-qc, #freenode and other various channels on the network for a few years now, helping the people of the community the best i can, and always loved it.
<Sebastien> I would love to become a member, to be able to implicate myself a little more, and to represent the community a little more officially.
<Sebastien> I think its my "next step" before setting up a ubuntu hour in my area.
<jared> Sebastien: you don't feel you can do a Ubuntu Hour without membership?
<Pendulum> Why not just setup the Ubuntu Hour?
<Sebastien> Yes i can. Nothing is stopping me, and we have been speaking about it in #ubuntu-ca.
<Sebastien> as a member of ubuntu-qc and my attempts to try to join the french translator team, the ubuntu hour is not the only thing on my list :)
<jared> Sebastien: great, it sounds like you want to start contributing but we need to see previous contributions rather than membership being required to participate
<cyphermox> Sebastien: you haven't been approved in fr-ca-translators?
<Sebastien> cyphermox, not yet.
<cyphermox> Sebastien: I'll fix that
<cyphermox> so, as jared was mentioning
<Sebastien> jared, my contribution right now has been mostly done online here on freenode.
<Sebastien> cyphermox, perfect :)
<jared> Sebastien: by the way, cyphermox is one of the team leads for the QC team so it's good you're both here :)
<Sebastien> Indeed it is :)
<cyphermox> Ubuntu Membership is meant to be a recognition of sustained and significant contribution to Ubuntu and the community. It's not easy for us at the moment to see what your contributions have been, and it seems like it would be best if you could come back at a later time, perhaps with testimonials from people (I'll be happy to leave one)
<cyphermox> IdleOne: around?
<cyphermox> Sebastien: IdleOne is often in #ubuntu, so he could maybe vouch for you, but it's very early for him too :)
<Sebastien> I might not have done much on paper, but in practice, i have been giving the best i can for the community, and i would really want to have a shot at it.
<Sebastien> Awesome :)
<cyphermox> so, I think the first thing would be to start your Ubuntu Hour, and we'll see if I can convince at least another friend to join in and drive up to Gatineau
<Sebastien> Oh and by sustained, i have been online every day, since about 2 years.
<jared> Sebastien: I think if you have a chat to cyphermox and the QC team and contribute some of the thing syou've mentioned you would have a great application in about 6 months or so.
<Sebastien> :(
<jared> I don't think it's a sad thing at all, I think it's good that you're keen to get involved. We're also lucky to have some people here that can help guide and coach you through the next steps
<Sebastien> Sure. will do.
<cyphermox> Sebastien: you shouldn't let that stop you, let's start organizing some things and you can be back here (perhaps at a later meeting) in no time
<jared> Sebastien: do you understand what we're looking for when determining memership though? I don't want to discourage you, more just empower you to do what you were contemplating
<Sebastien> Yes, i tought that maybe the help i gave online in #ubuntu and all the affiliate channels would have been something you would take in consideration.
<jared> Sebastien: normally if that is the case you would have some supporting testimonials to show your efforts.
<jared> While I'm not doubting you have contributed, unless we have some way of seeing and measuring (with the help of others) it's hard for us.
<Sebastien> I do not ask anyone to do anything for me :) Usually my testimonials are done face to face when i "fixed" a computer :)
<jared> Sebastien: ah see, testimonials usually come from other Ubuntu contributors, such as other IRC Channel helpers, etc
<cyphermox> Sebastien: that's why I tried to ping someone, because anyone else on the channels could perhaps have chimed in to say you're a nice guy ;)
<Sebastien> I am more focused on the online community then anything else, i Love IRC,a nd the ubuntu community. Another one of my goal would be to join the ubuntu-irc group. This is something that i would really like to do.
<Sebastien> Heh, i get that cyphermox. maybe if you ping #freenode completely, a few 100s people could reply.
<Sebastien> i have been around irc for more then a decade :)
<jared> Sebastien: ok so while we appreciate you have contributed the consensus is that we're unable to gauge the significant and sustained requirements for Ubuntu Membership at this time.
<jared> Sebastien: however don't fret, it could just mean we need more information
<jared> What I'm proposing to do is to hold off on the applciation for now and spend a few minutes with you after the meeting explaining some ways to make it easier to show.
<jared> Would you be okay with that?
<Sebastien> If its not too late for you, i don't mind.
<Sebastien> i have time.
<Sebastien> Well thank you jared, and to everyone in the board, i appreciate your time. I will see you around!
<jared> #action Sebastien to be given information on how to make the application show requirements met and to return when able to show significant and sustained contributions
<meetingology> ACTION: Sebastien to be given information on how to make the application show requirements met and to return when able to show significant and sustained contributions
<jared> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Wed Dec 18 13:08:09 2013 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes (wiki):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2013/ubuntu-meeting.2013-12-18-12.08.moin.txt
<meetingology> Minutes (html):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2013/ubuntu-meeting.2013-12-18-12.08.html
<jared> Ok the formalities are done, Sebastien did you have a couple of minutes now?
<Sebastien> yes i do.
<jared> Basically if you're applying based on IRC contributions primarily you generally go through the IRC council for membership.
<jared> Their wiki page is at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IRC/IrcCouncil
<Sebastien> Ok, i will take a look.
<jared> However, if your application is primarily around local contributions it's a good idea to get engaged with the Loco around you and provide some examples of what you've done and get some testimonials from others in the team
<Sebastien> ok
<jared> So a suggestion might be to have a look over marcus' page from before, that was a well laid out application
<jared> It showed how he contributed to his loco, provided links to the events and had a bunch of testimonials from other team members.
<jared> We asked to see photos as well so if he had of had links to those on his page it would have almost been perfect.
<jared> It should also give you a bit of an understanding about what sort of level of contrubtion is required for membership. We're not saying you have to do exactly what marcus has done but that sort of involvement is a bit of a guide
<Sebastien> perfect.
<jared> Sebastien: so to get involved with the IRC team I'd have a look over the wiki at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IRC/IrcTeam
<jared> Or to look at the Ubuntu Hours and things like that then I'm sure there are people in the -qc channel who are able to help out with that.
<jared> (or for bonus points you can do both!)
<jared> No contribution is "better" than another, it's more about what you enjoy doing and helping out with.
<jared> For example, I've never written a line of code but I've still found ways to contribute over the years
<RomelSan> ok Guys, i understand a little more
<RomelSan> So in fact, i just need to prove my work
<jared> RomelSan: indeed, you're very much in the same light as Sebastien
<RomelSan> cause, i in downstream i have to show: marketing
<jared> Ubuntu Membership is recognition of significant and sustained contributions, it's not permission to start contributing.
<RomelSan> and in upstream: the oem part
<RomelSan> well i don't need permission... i just need to prove my contributions
<RomelSan> so question?
<jared> RomelSan: great, so if you've done some work in Ubuntu teams or projects you just need to show how you've contributed. I'd also highly recommend getting some testimonials from those you've worked with (it's easier if they're members themselves but not essential).
<RomelSan> i  just need to join a team, and start to upload photos, etc.?
<jared> RomelSan: if you are about to start contributing then definitely just keep a running log of your efforts
<RomelSan> what about previous work?
<jared> RomelSan: they count if they are for Ubuntu or the Ubuntu community
<RomelSan> Yep, i can prove all of my contributions.
<RomelSan> so, when can i come back?
<RomelSan> 3 months? 6?
<jared> RomelSan: whenever you feel your application is ready. If you want some guidance or an opinion outside of meeting times you can just email the board  ubuntu-membership-boards@lists.ubuntu.com
<jared> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Membership/NewMember has more information
<RomelSan> Ok, i have to look @ my old photos, i will return in 3 months.
<jared> RomelSan: great :) We're here to help if you want some guidance on the application
<Sebastien> See you around RomelSan :)
<jared> Sebastien: have I been able to help you out as well or do you have other questions?
<RomelSan> ok, thanks Jared.
<Sebastien> No, i am ok jared.
<Sebastien> Thank you.
<jared> RomelSan & Sebastien thank you for your applications, please let us know if we can help out further.
<jared> I look forward to seeing your great work in the coming months :)
<Sebastien> Good night/day
<Sebastien> You will :)
<RomelSan> C ya guys, here it is 8:30am, have to go to work. Bye
<jared> RomelSan: nearly midnight here, enjoy your day
#ubuntu-meeting 2013-12-19
 * slangasek waves
<jodh`> o/
 * stgraber waves
<slangasek> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Thu Dec 19 16:02:16 2013 UTC.  The chair is slangasek. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
<slangasek> [TOPIC] Lightning round
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Lightning round
<slangasek> $ echo $(shuf -e barry doko stgraber jodh bdmurray slangasek cjwatson xnox stokachu)
<slangasek> doko stokachu xnox jodh slangasek stgraber barry bdmurray cjwatson
<slangasek> doko: you first :)
<doko> - configury fixes for a bootstrap build
<doko> - openjdk-7 disable hotspot on i386, alignment issue with glibc 2.18.
<doko> - port openjdk zero to ppc64el
<doko> - update llvm to 3.4, mir b-d's, build mesa with 3.4.
<doko> - build fixes for the indicator stack to build update-notifier
<doko> - gcc-snapshot update
<doko> - and fixing hardening-wrapper
<doko> - gdb updated to the trunk
<doko>  /done
<slangasek> oh, gdb, great :)
<xnox> i assume stokachu is still out
<slangasek> yes
<xnox> * uploaded initial cmake cross-compilation support (positive response
<xnox>   and constructive further plans discussions from that)
<xnox> * fixed-up some of the cross-compilations issues in packages using
<xnox>   cmake (e.g. executing compiled binaries, when cross-compiling)
<xnox> * fixed-up broken toolchain-base packages for arm* (due to eglibc 2.17
<xnox>   -> 2.18 bump) p*pc* are still to do
<xnox> * uploaded changes to android & autopilot to resolve executing
<xnox>   autopilot tests under the emulator. At request from evan, tested
<slangasek> (and he hasn't designated a surrogate, so)
<xnox>   that a single host can execute multiple emulators, still need to
<xnox>   check if it can also be done in a VM, without proper graphics card.
<xnox> * still to do in the emulator - unlock higher RAM memory, currently
<xnox>   capped at 760MB due to memory map issues (kernel panics, segfaults
<xnox>   with higher values.)
<xnox> * Running autopilot tests documented in this part of the wiki
<xnox>   https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Touch/Emulator#Using_the_emulator
<xnox> * merged boost, and split python-pyste to demote gccxml to universe.
<xnox> * still to do resolve device name of the "generic", for system-image
<xnox>   updates in the emulator
<xnox> ..
<jodh`> * upstart: cgroup:
<jodh`>   - Continued work on cgroup support. Improved the internal
<jodh`>     representation of a cgroup (currently updating tests to reflect
<jodh`>     this).
<jodh`>   - cgmanager discussions with hallyn+stgraber.
<jodh`> * misc: short week - out yesterday.
<jodh`> ×¡Ö
<slangasek> xnox: emulator \o/  but hmm, I guess the question isn't whether we can run them in a VM, but whether they will perform well enough to be worth anything
<barry> slangasek: seems like boot (maybe disk access?) is quite slow, but cli performance doesn't seem too bad once it's booted
<xnox> slangasek: it's both. using juju / openstack instances is preferred over having a physical bare-metal box contention.
<xnox> slangasek: and performance.... cpu emulation is still slow and there is no obvious way to crank up emulated cpu speed, unless we start using generic-x86 builds with accelerated kvm style emulation.
<xnox> slangasek: which will take us into the nested kvm bugs, once again ;-)
<xnox> jodh`: has nested kvm been resolved at all, in the case of upstart tests?
<slangasek> yes, yes, it would
<slangasek> xnox: not in the least
<slangasek> barry: cli performance is not what we are testing :)
<xnox> slangasek: excellent, the more i do the more there is to do.....
<slangasek>  * recruiting for the Foundations Team opening
<slangasek>  * bootstrapping/porting work
<slangasek>  * release engineering for alpha 1
<slangasek>  * fix libfreetype-dev dependencies so things using freetype-config don't FTBFS
<barry> slangasek: yeah, i know
<slangasek> (done)
<stgraber> Done:
<stgraber>  - CGroup Manager
<stgraber>    - Helped with design work.
<stgraber>  - LXC
<stgraber>    - Release 1.0~beta1 on Tuesday, updated our packaging and uploaded
<stgraber>    - Finished implementing the container autostart specification (patched up for review now)
<slangasek> specifically: we're exercising autopilot tests, which run the gui
<stgraber>    - Finished work on the configure-overview branch and landed upstream.
<stgraber>    - Tried to debug and ended up working around an issue with clang-3.4 (reverted to 3.2 for now as it looked like a compiler/parser bug).
<stgraber>    - The usual set of code reviews
<stgraber>  - Ubuntu touch
<stgraber>    - Enabled discard use by default (once initamfs-tools-ubuntu-touch manages to build...)
<stgraber>    - Fixed a rather critical bug in the upgrader code (factory reset would also wipe the system)
<stgraber>  - Other
<stgraber>    - SRU and New reviews
<stgraber>    - A couple of merges
<stgraber>  - TODO tomorrow: OpenVPN packaging fixups, a couple more minor LXC changes to work better with unpriv containers and maybe some networking work if time allows
<stgraber>  - Holidays
<stgraber>    - I was off on yesterday
<stgraber>    - I'll be working tomorrow, then off till the 2nd
<stgraber> (DONE)
<barry> system-image: LP: #1256229, LP: #1260712.  started looking at system-image and autopilot on emulator; filed some emulator and u-d-m bugs with issues found - with those fixed, we're probably not too far off from system-image working in emulator.
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1256229 in Ubuntu system image ""system-image-cli -i" reports old version" [Undecided,Invalid] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1256229
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1260712 in system-image (Ubuntu) "Apply update failed: Can't apply the current update (can't contact service)"" [Undecided,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1260712
<barry> ubu/deb: genshi 0.7-1 (added py3 support), pytest 2.5.0-1 (blocked on dep), pecan 0.4.2-1 (in progress), debian bug 732038 (singledispatch), twisted-py3 13.2.0-0ubuntu1, alacart 3.10-1-1ubuntu1 (removed b-d and thus main-inclusion on python-support), claws-mail 3.9.3-1ubuntu1, debian bug 714896 (py3 reportbug - in progress).
<ubottu> Debian bug 732038 in wnpp "ITP: singledispatch -- single-dispatch generic functions for Python" [Wishlist,Open] http://bugs.debian.org/732038
<ubottu> Debian bug 714896 in reportbug "reportbug: port to python3" [Wishlist,Open] http://bugs.debian.org/714896
<barry> (done)
<bdmurray> bug triage of dpkg already installed and configured bugs
<bdmurray> investigation into using apt-cdrom ident information to confirm validity of installation media
<bdmurray> uploaded SRUs for usb-creator bug 915626
<ubottu> bug 915626 in usb-creator (Ubuntu Saucy) "usb-creator-gtk crashed with SIGSEGV in _dbus_watch_invalidate" [High,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/915626
<bdmurray> SRU verification of bug 1250679, bug 1258639
<ubottu> bug 1250679 in apport (Ubuntu Saucy) "crash files from guest users considered system reports" [Medium,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1250679
<xnox> barry: yeah, IO is horribly, emulated SDCARD speeds. there is even code to emulated / delay it further. i need to make sure it is not delayed. But i think, the IO speed is lightning times faster than the emulated CPU speed, so actually unrealisticly performed IO is emulated for the given CPU, I think =)
<ubottu> bug 1258639 in ubuntu-release-upgrader (Ubuntu Saucy) "need to support upgrades from 12.10 to 13.10" [High,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1258639
<bdmurray> sorted out an issue with the release upgrader tarball building
<bdmurray> resolved an issue with the creation of demoted.cfg files in the ubuntu-release-upgrader dist-upgrade tarball
<bdmurray> uploaded new version of ubuntu-release-upgrader to the saucy proposed queue
<bdmurray> tested whoopsie changes for detecting .crash files and writing to them
<bdmurray> discussed whoopsie permissions issue with slangasek
<bdmurray> tested changes to apport-noui upstart job
<bdmurray> wrote some code to make it easier to associate packages to teams
<bdmurray> subscribed teams to packages
<bdmurray> fixed an issue with team bug notifier
<bdmurray> wrote a tool to make reviewing pending SRUs easier
<xnox> s/performed/performant/
<bdmurray> investigation into retracing issues with daisy and missing oopses
<bdmurray> submitted merge proposal requesting an increase to thrift sizes
<bdmurray> test and modification of back population for counter for release:src_pkg:src_pkg_version
<bdmurray> done
<stgraber> doko: if you're interested by what may be a llvm bug when building LXC under clang I can poke you about it afterwards. (It looks to me like it's wrongly reporting unused functions)
<doko> stgraber, clang is in universe =)
<stgraber> doko: sure and we still use and recommend gcc by default, but I like to have our QA setup build on more than one compiler just to make sure we're not doing anything too gcc-specific in there
<doko> stgraber, yes, but ENOTIME
<slangasek> and no cjwatson today, so that's all of us
<slangasek> any questions?
<xnox> slangasek: when is the next meeting?
<slangasek> xnox: January!
<slangasek> January 8?
<stgraber> doko: ok :) For now I've just hardcoded clang-3.2 in our test suite and that's done the trick, hopefully someone who actually cares enough will debug and fix that problem at some point ;)
<slangasek> no, January 2
<doko> 2015?
<doko> stgraber, did you check 3.4?
<slangasek> doko: I hope you don't count array indices the way you count years ;)
<xnox> slangasek: is there much point in 2nd jan meeting? i guess it will be a rather quick one anyway.
<slangasek> xnox: hmmmm
<bdmurray> doko: could you have a look at bug 1261604?
<ubottu> bug 1261604 in gcc-4.8 (Ubuntu) "static binaries compiled with gccgo can fail to set up their address space" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1261604
<slangasek> xnox: good point, we can skip it
<xnox> slangasek: endianess is ok, so it's almost the right count =)
<slangasek> xnox: let's still do the mumble chat though :)
<xnox> ack.
<stgraber> doko: yep, 3.2 and 3.3 work, 3.4 doesn't
<doko> bdmurray, yes, next year
<slangasek> [TOPIC] AOB
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: AOB
<slangasek> anything else?  Christmas shopping recommendations?  Eggnog recipes?
<barry> slangasek: for all the pythonistas out there: http://www.vat19.com/dvds/26-pound-edible-gummy-python-candy.cfm
<slangasek> oh my
<jodh`> love that calorie count!
 * barry feels his breathing constricted just thinking about it
<slangasek> it doesn't list calories per serving?
<slangasek> haha, http://images1.vat19.com/party-python/gummy-python-8-feet-long.jpg
<xnox> barry: 7 foot, i would have thought a 3.4 foot long variant is needed
<barry> xnox: metric
<barry> :)
<jodh`> slangasek: only per snake :)
 * barry wonders how many pig hooves go into something like that
<xnox> bloke with a steak knife eating it is hallarious pic!
<xnox> "Thankfully, the gigantic gummy Party Python has a shelf life of a year."
<barry> they also have the world largest gummy bears
<barry> and gummy bears on a stick (everything is better when it's on a stick)
<xnox> Question: Don't you think this is a bit absurd for a piece of candy?
<xnox> Answer: You must be new to our website. You need to check out this, this, this, this, this, and this. Oh, and this. While we're at it, check out this. It's not candy, but it is absurdly large.
<xnox> with "this" all URLs =)
<slangasek> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Thu Dec 19 16:27:43 2013 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes (wiki):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2013/ubuntu-meeting.2013-12-19-16.02.moin.txt
<meetingology> Minutes (html):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2013/ubuntu-meeting.2013-12-19-16.02.html
<slangasek> :)
<slangasek> happy holidays, everyone :)
<barry> oddly enough, i'm still hungry for lunch
<barry> thanks!
<stgraber> thanks!
<jodh`> thanks!
<cprofitt> hello all
<mhall119> hello
<dholbach> hi
<mhall119> so, somebody want to get this party started?
<dholbach> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Thu Dec 19 17:05:53 2013 UTC.  The chair is dholbach. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
<dholbach> #chair mhall119 cprofitt
<meetingology> Current chairs: cprofitt dholbach mhall119
<dholbach> hello everybody
<dholbach> #topic Check-in with the Developer Membership Board
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Check-in with the Developer Membership Board
<dholbach> do we have anyone from the DMB here?
<dholbach> ScottK, bdrung_, laney, micahg, tumbleweed, stgraber: anyone of you guys around?
<mhall119> I emailed them, but it was moderated, and the list owner was the TB, who didn't exist
<Laney> I moderated it.
<dholbach> hey laney
<cprofitt> hello everyone
<Laney> hello
<dholbach> how are things?
<dholbach> how has the last cycle been for the DMB?
<Laney> depends how much you like autopilot
<Laney> hmm, I think it's been much on the level
<Laney> we've had some new people but not been overly busy
<Laney> the TB approved the PPU change that we talked about before
<dholbach> excellent
<dholbach> didn't you have any other changes up your sleeves, like making it easier for Debian developers too?
<dholbach> or are we at the "it's as easy as it gets" point already? :)
<Laney> we did some of that
<Laney> have used it a couple of times already
<Laney> probably need some more experience to know where it could be made easier
<dholbach> did you get any feedback? or was it straight enough for people who are not in the Ubuntu project too much yet?
<Laney> currently you have to have attended a DMB interview once before
<Laney> so it's not /that/ simple
<Laney> I guess somehow that could be relaxed, but we suck at doing email applications
<dholbach> do two DMB interviews or first somebody else's interview? (I'm not sure I understand... :-))
<Laney> one
<Laney> then you just email to get more stuff
<dholbach> ah ok
<dholbach> one thing we talked about in the past was that the DAT and DMB work more closely together, but the DAT has gone through a bit of a hard time recently because many of its members got quite busy (me included) - so I wanted to ask: do you feel people who should apply (because they're experienced enough) do it?
<Laney> yeah generally people do if they've managed to get that far
<dholbach> and I'm just interested in your gut feeling - it's a bit hard to maintain an overview over all people who contribute through the cycles
<Laney> probably getting people to that stage is the part that suffers
<dholbach> I'll take an action to bring this up with the DAT again
<Laney> but we get people coming through like ginggs and mitya57 recently
<Laney> and I expect Noskcaj and darkxst soon
<dholbach> ... which is excellent :)
<dholbach> do you feel there are Debian developers who would apply for upload rights if they knew more about the possibility?
<Laney> ummmmmmmmm, that's hard to say
<dholbach> like, do you see Debian developers constantly filing sync requests for their packages, etc
<Laney> not really, but I think someone would notice and poke them to apply if that happened
<Laney> pocock is one in that situation, who we're being bad at processing because it's going over email
<mhall119> do you see Debian developers surprised to learn they can apply?
<dholbach> laney: is it the roundtrips that take too long?
<Laney> it's just something that gets put off
<Laney> because there's no fixed time for it
<Laney> you know how these things are
<dholbach> I mark mails as unread if I didn't reply to them yet...............
<dholbach> sorry, probably not the most useful suggestion :)
<Laney> haha
<mhall119> email still sucks as a TODO list manager
<dholbach> still, it feels possible to me to get it done somehow :)
<Laney> everyone knows they have to just DO IT but it still doesn't always work
<Laney> doing it live on IRC is much better for everyone
<Laney> mhall119: not really
<dholbach> sure
<Laney> but I don't think the fast path processes are very well advertised
<dholbach> what the MC did (ages ago) was sort of like a private stand-up meeting where we went through our TODO
<dholbach> it sounds to me like something like this would probably just take 5-10 minutes for the DMB
<Laney> hmm
<Laney> I dunno, we aren't very good at exerting social pressure on each other
<dholbach> there must be a way to make it a bit more painful to admit that something still hasn't gotten done :)
<Laney> like the PPU team reorganisation has gone on for weeks already
<mhall119> does the DMB have regular meetings?
<Laney> there's a named person assigned to it, it gets brought up at every meeting as it's on the agenda, yet somehow ...
<Laney> sure, every two weeks
<Laney> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DeveloperMembershipBoard/Agenda
<mhall119> so it's brought up, and everybody knows who's supposed to do it, but it just doesn't happen?
<Laney> pretty much
<Laney> how do you deal with that?
<mhall119> big stick?
<Laney> not sure what stick we have available
<mhall119> is there a list right now of people that need to be contacted?
<Laney> other than getting them removed from the board
<pleia2> some boards have taken to have a secretary who makes sure the administrative stuff is followed through on
<pleia2> and the CC uses a trello board so we don't lose track of tasks
<Laney> there's just one person
<Laney> I really don't think keeping track is the problem
<pleia2> fair enough
<Laney> It's just lack of urgency
<cprofitt> why is there a lack of urgency?
<dholbach> cprofitt, I guess it's all busy people
<mhall119> Laney: you said there's a named person assigned to every applicant?
<Laney> nein, applicants are handled by everyone
<Laney> this is for other things
<mhall119> so when you say "there's a named person assigned to it", what is the "it"?
<Laney> other action items, such as restructuring PPU teams that we have ongoing atm
<Laney> previously it was a project to gather descriptions for packagesets
<Laney> so that we could more easily extend them
<Laney> eventually we dropped that one because it went on so long
<mhall119> Laney: so there aren't currently any of these things that need to be taken care of?
<Laney> sure there is, I just said one :-)
<mhall119> restructing PPU teams?
<Laney> and I'm the one who was supposed to start pocock's application but haven't done it yet
<Laney> was waiting for some endorsements but it looks like they came in now
<mhall119> so maybe I'm missing something, but I don't see a list of these and who's assigned to them
<Laney> it was a project we worked on in consultation with the previous CC
<mhall119> on the agenda page
<Laney> umm, it's listed as an action point on the agenda
<Laney> It's true that we should have starting the application there, let me add that
<Laney> there we go
<cprofitt> Laney: the CC has used Trello to track and assign items... not sure if something like that could help with some of the items
<pleia2> cprofitt: mentioned that :)
<Laney> Yeah
<Laney> It might help in that it breaks down the tasks I guess
<dholbach> I think if the DMB uses the Wiki that should work as well - you'll always have to have somebody looking at the list again to see what's still in TODO and DOING :)
<Laney> it's only tracked in the agenda, which means that we come back to things every two weeks
<Laney> the idea is that people feel shame if they haven't done their work
<Laney> doesn't work so well :-(
<dholbach> laney: maybe somebody could send a reminder between the two meetings
<Laney> yeah maybe
<Laney> I'll try that
<dholbach> awesome
<dholbach> apart from that you feel everything's working out fine?
<Laney> I think everything's on the same level as it was last time we had this kind of meeting ...
<dholbach> ok :)
<dholbach> does anyone else have any more questions for the DMB?
<dholbach> laney: anything else you wanted to bring up or the CC could help with?
<xnox> dholbach: what do they really want for Christmas?
<xnox> =)
<dholbach> rainbow unicorns just like everyone else :)
<pleia2> I'm good, was nice to see anoither motu approved the other day :)
<Laney> moar motus
<pleia2> thanks for joining us, Laney
<Laney> hey, I remember back in the day there used to be "behind MOTU" interviews, would be nice to have those again
<pleia2> yeah
<dholbach> Maia and Nigel took it over and even set up a domain for it
<dholbach> at least that's how I remember it
<dholbach> but yeah, that'd be great to have again for sure
<Laney> http://behindthecircle.org/
<dholbach> ah yes
<pleia2> I can follow up with them
<dholbach> <3
<Laney> aww, look at bdrung_'s little smiling face
<pleia2> #action pleia2 to follow up with behindthecircle.org status
<meetingology> ACTION: pleia2 to follow up with behindthecircle.org status
<Laney> thanks!
<dholbach> laney: I have to meet up with him again - I'm sure he's still smiling exactly like this :)
<dholbach> all right, thanks a lot laney!
<dholbach> #topic Any other business
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Any other business
<dholbach> does anyone have any other business to discuss?
<dholbach> there's at least nothing on the agenda page
<Laney> the list of candidates for the TB - how were they selected? I didn't see any call; was it done in private?
<dholbach> laney: I don't know where it was, but wasn't there a call for nominations?
<Laney> if there was then I missed it
<Laney> was it handed to you guys as a finished list?
<pleia2> sabdfl picks them
<pleia2> no call for nominations
<Laney> I see
<dholbach> I found http://www.mail-archive.com/technical-board@lists.ubuntu.com/msg01199.html
<dholbach> maybe from there folks mailed Mark
<dholbach> but I don't know for sure
<dholbach> all right... anything else?
<pleia2> I think that's it, thanks dholbach!
<dholbach> thanks a bunch everyone!
<dholbach> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Thu Dec 19 17:51:13 2013 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes (wiki):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2013/ubuntu-meeting.2013-12-19-17.05.moin.txt
<meetingology> Minutes (html):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2013/ubuntu-meeting.2013-12-19-17.05.html
#ubuntu-meeting 2014-12-15
<bdrung_work> o/
<xnox> o/
<Laney> hi
<bdmurray> o/
<Laney> xnox is supposed to chair, so sez the wiki
<xnox> Laney: oh really?!
<xnox> #startmeeting A festive Ubuntu Developer Membership Board Meeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Mon Dec 15 15:08:23 2014 UTC.  The chair is xnox. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | A festive Ubuntu Developer Membership Board Meeting | Current topic:
<xnox> #action xnox to send notes from last time i've chaired, cause i don't think i did....
<meetingology> ACTION: xnox to send notes from last time i've chaired, cause i don't think i did....
<xnox> #topic Thomas Ward nginx-PPU application
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | A festive Ubuntu Developer Membership Board Meeting | Current topic: Thomas Ward nginx-PPU application
<teward> o/
<xnox> teward: hello =)
<xnox> teward: please introduce yourself and your application today =)
<teward> My name is Thomas Ward, and I am applying for per-package upload rights for the nginx package.  For some time now, I have been working with the nginx package, getting bugs triaged, and working to get security and bug fixes into the package.  Initially in 2012, I started working with the package, taking primary maintainership of the nginx team's PPAs, and later getting Ubuntu Bug Control status to help triage the bugs more effectively.
<teward> Since then, I have continued working with the package, fixing bugs, maintaining version merges/syncs with assistance from the sponsors, and also worked to get security CVE fixes into the packaging for stable releases.
<teward> Recently, I've worked with rbasak and others to help get nginx-core, a upstream-modules-only flavor of the nginx binary, into Main, and have been actively on the front lines handling bug triage and maintenance.
<teward> I am applying for Per-Package Upload rights of the package, as I have worked on the package enough that I believe I am no longer in need of sponsors to check my work and assist in uploading stable release updates and merges to the standard repositories (including -updates).
<teward> On my application page is a sizable list of links to bugs and stable-release updates, the latest of which is the merge from 1.6.2-4 from Debian Unstable into Vivid, which mdeslaur ended up sponsoring.
<teward> (There is also another pending merge in the sponsorship queue, for 1.6.2-5 from Unstable as well)
<teward> I would like the DMB to approve my application for upload rights for the nginx package, so that I may continue to step up and maintain the package in Ubuntu, and I welcome any additional questions the DMB may have.
<teward> I also apologize for my application being late-filed, my schedule has been very hard on me, which has limited my availability until this point.
<xnox> ok.
<xnox> teward: looking at your launchpad profile - why do you have 9 GPG keys?
<teward> xnox: That's something i've been meaning to fix, I've been extraordinarily busy.  The GPG keys on there have been remnants from where I've had to do my packaging work - either on VPSes I maintain, or in VMs, or on systems that have died.
<teward> xnox: it's an unfortunate side effect my older laptop had 5 hard drives die on me - a large portion of those keys were on those dead drives.
<teward> (I'm working cleanup on that today, as this is my first 'free' time to actually dig into those keys)
<teward> xnox: only two of the keys would be necessary for the account, I have just not gotten around to retiring the older keys
<teward> xnox: i just deactivated 7 of the keys as they are not present on this system - one or two may get reactivated when I check my dedicated packaging VM for its keys, but the remaining two that are activated (now) are active, one is needed for the LP Email interface for bugs, as it is the email address I work with for that interface (with GPG signatures)
<xnox> teward: how much are you involved with nginx package maintainance in Debian?
<bdrung_work> xnox stole my question ;)
<Laney> This nginx-core idea sounds like something that might be useful there
<teward> xnox: I actively watch the bugs there, however I have not been heavily involved with the Debian package maintenance - for the most part I focus on Ubuntu, but I do actively triage bugs upstream to them
<teward> Laney: I discussed it with their maintainers in the past in their IRC channel on OFTC - they've rejected the idea as "ubuntu specific"
<Laney> um
<teward> Laney: with NGINX 2.x, it is suggested that pluggable modules, like Apache has, is a planned feature
<xnox> teward: but what about other things? e.g. patch to make welcome page show "$DEB_VENDOR" in the docs, instead of hard-coded strings Debian and/or Ubuntu? that would minimise delta.
<xnox> (although i'm guessing branding patch was not from you)
<teward> xnox: no, that patch was not from me.
<teward> xnox: by the 'welcome page' i assume you mean the welcome page included in the debian/ directory, which is where the version-specific welcome pages originate?
<xnox> teward: yes.
<teward> xnox: I would be willing to investigate adding that to the Ubuntu branding patch, yes, that would decrease the delta.
<teward> xnox: however, that would still be a delta - upstream in Debian, I would have to propose that to them, if they make the change that would indeed decrease the delta.
<Laney> oh I see, they're conflicting packages
<teward> xnox: however, if Debian refuses that change, it remains a delta.
<xnox> bdrung_work: bdmurray: Laney: do you have questions?
<teward> xnox: we'd still have the delta because of lines 21 through 25 in the Debian-origin of that page - we can easily put the strings into the page for Debian or Ubuntu via $DEB_VENDOR (I believe), however, there remains a delta from lines 22 through 25 for the page, hardcoding the Debian 'report-bug' system for that.  (That would be the remaining delta on that page)
<Laney> if you contribute there then in time you will be 'Debian'
<Laney> i.e. able to make changes directly
<Laney> no other comments
<teward> (My apologies for the late reply, my net kicked out for a couple seconds)
<bdrung_work> regarding the branding patch, you could even have two different index pages for debian and ubuntu and install the one based on $DEB_VENDOR
<bdmurray> I don't have any questions.
<xnox> teward: can you, in your own words, describe security update planning and release? what happens when, etc.
<bdrung_work> teward, i have one suggestion for the branding change to src/core/nginx.h: Upstream's build system could gain a --branding or --distro switch to set the distribution (which will then be added to NGINX_VER
<teward> xnox: currently, the process for security bugs in NGINX on my radar is as follows: either Debian or the CVE tracker from the Security team will show a CVE being marked affecting the package, and I will begin finding the upstream ticket for it, or the Debian-included changes in their git repository (which are available relatively soon after upstream releases the fix).  I usually will have a bug filed for that issue in Launchpad as a
<teward> tracker, and I grab the changes from either Debian or Upstream.  From there, I typically grab the updates and work with the Security team to update the packaging to include the fix.
 * xnox ponders if teward is still kicked out of irc.
<teward> xnox: sorry, long response
<xnox> teward: ah, i was.
<teward> xnox: I do watch the upstream announcements list, and Debian changes, like a hawk - within a couple days of the fix being available in either upstream or Debian, I've grabbed it and am working on debdiffs for security team review and inclusion
<teward> (schedule permitting, of course)
<teward> I am also no stranger to #ubuntu-hardened, poking the security team to review when there's a security issue in the nginx package that needs attention :)
<teward> xnox: as for how Upstream handles security issues, I am not familiar with their internal process, I do however grab the fixes as soon as they're available on my radar, usually once Debian git includes it in their repository, sometimes sooner.
<xnox> bdrung_work: bdmurray: Laney: ready to vote?
<teward> bdrung_work: I will look into it, thank you for the recommendation.
<Laney> Sure
<bdrung_work> teward, are you interested in getting more involved in Debian, for example, getting commit access to the Debian git repository?
<teward> bdrung_work: I have had that on my radar as well, and an interested in eventually gaining access there.  (however they have a good number of maintainers who commit the fixes long before I get to them)
<teward> my schedule being as it has been lately, however, has prevented me from fully investigating that.
 * bdrung_work is ready to vote
<bdrung_work> teward, i encourage you to get more involved into Debian and to reduce the diff between Debian and Ubuntu
<teward> bdrung_work: I will take your encouragement under advisement, and will strive to be more involved with the Debian packaging of nginx as well, and work to hopefully reduce the delta between Debian and Ubuntu.
<Laney> xnox: ?
<xnox> #vote teward ppu for nginx
<meetingology> Please vote on: teward ppu for nginx
<meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (for private voting, private message me with 'vote +1/-1/+0 #channelname)
<Laney> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from Laney
<bdmurray> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from bdmurray
<Laney> xnox bdrung_work
<xnox> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from xnox
 * Laney drums fingers
<xnox> well....
<xnox> Laney: end vote, end meeting take it to email?
 * xnox needs to go soon.
<bdrung_work> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from bdrung_work
<bdrung_work> sorry, i was interrupted
<xnox> #endvote
<meetingology> Voting ended on: teward ppu for nginx
<meetingology> Votes for:4 Votes against:0 Abstentions:0
<meetingology> Motion carried
<xnox> teward: congrats (i think) and we will send meeting notes & action the rights later, we will send you an email.
<xnox> teward: thanks a lot for attending! =)
<teward> xnox: Thank you all for granting my application, and taking the time out of your busy days for little old me.  :)
<bdmurray> teward: congratulations
<teward> bdmurray: thank you  :)
<xnox> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Mon Dec 15 16:11:19 2014 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2014/ubuntu-meeting.2014-12-15-15.08.moin.txt
#ubuntu-meeting 2014-12-16
<gnuoy> Since Scott was last week and Pierre is Bon Noeling I guess it's me
<gnuoy> Anyone else around?
<matsubara> o/
<caribou> o/
<gnuoy> #startmeeting ubuntu-server-team
<meetingology> Meeting started Tue Dec 16 16:01:52 2014 UTC.  The chair is gnuoy. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic:
<gnuoy> #topic Review ACTION points from previous meeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Review ACTION points from previous meeting
<beisner> o/ hi gnuoy
<gnuoy> matsubara, looks like you followed up on Bug #1398443
<ubottu> bug 1398443 in Ubuntu QA Website "rls-v-tracking missing for Vivid" [Undecided,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1398443
<gnuoy> I don't see any other actions
<gnuoy> #topic Vivid Development
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Vivid Development
<matsubara> gnuoy, yep, the report is now working. :-)
<coreycb> o/
<gnuoy> Is now the point we'd normally look at http://reqorts.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/rls-mgr/rls-v-tracking-bug-tasks.html#ubuntu-server ?
<gnuoy> oh , no
 * gnuoy reads the script
<gnuoy> #link https://wiki.ubuntu.com/VividVervet/ReleaseSchedule
<gnuoy> Alpha 1 (for opt-in flavours)  on Thurs
<gnuoy> #subtopic Release Bugs
<gnuoy> #link http://reqorts.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/rls-mgr/rls-v-tracking-bug-tasks.html#ubuntu-server
<gaughen> o/   \o    /o
<gnuoy> There are four bug there which look like they need love
<gnuoy> jamespage, has Bug #1388077
<ubottu> bug 1388077 in nova (Ubuntu Vivid) "Parallel periodic instance power state reporting from compute nodes has high impact on conductors and message broker" [Undecided,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1388077
<gnuoy>  Bug #1387340 is marked as fixed released
<ubottu> bug 1387340 in cloud-init (Ubuntu Vivid) "'output' directive not honored (/var/log/cloud-init-output.log missing)" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1387340
<gnuoy> * Fix committed
<jamespage> o/
<jamespage> sorry a bit late
<gnuoy> Would scott be the one to shepherd that into Vivid and Utopic /
<gnuoy> ?
<gnuoy> jamespage, coreycb, have you seen Bug #1369294 ?
<ubottu> bug 1369294 in openvswitch (Ubuntu Vivid) "openvswitch-datapath-dkms 2.0.2-0ubuntu0.14.04.1: openvswitch kernel module failed to build [configure: error: Linux kernel in /lib/modules/XXX/build is version XXX, but version newer than 3.12.x is not supported]" [Medium,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1369294
<gnuoy> gaughen, should I be trying to get people to grab these bugs?
<coreycb> gnuoy, I haven't seen it, not sure if james has
<gaughen> gnuoy, if it's a hot bug yes.
<gaughen> I also want folks going and answering questions on Ask Ubuntu
<gnuoy> jamespage, you were working on Bug #1382632 , what needs to happen there?
<ubottu> bug 1382632 in horizon (Ubuntu Vivid) "Insecure key file permissions" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1382632
<jamespage> actually I think that's a no-op
<jamespage> for horizon at least
<gnuoy> jamespage, can you update the bug accordingly ?
<gnuoy> We also need to decide on the temperature of Bug #1387340	 in smoser absence
<ubottu> bug 1387340 in cloud-init (Ubuntu Vivid) "'output' directive not honored (/var/log/cloud-init-output.log missing)" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1387340
<gnuoy> #action jamespage update Bug #1382632
<meetingology> ACTION: jamespage update Bug #1382632
<ubottu> bug 1382632 in horizon (Ubuntu Vivid) "Insecure key file permissions" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1382632
<gnuoy> I think Bug #1387340 can wait till post-christmas unless anyone disagrees ?
<ubottu> bug 1387340 in cloud-init (Ubuntu Vivid) "'output' directive not honored (/var/log/cloud-init-output.log missing)" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1387340
<jamespage> yes
<gnuoy> #action jamespage update Bug #1369294
<meetingology> ACTION: jamespage update Bug #1369294
<ubottu> bug 1369294 in openvswitch (Ubuntu Vivid) "openvswitch-datapath-dkms 2.0.2-0ubuntu0.14.04.1: openvswitch kernel module failed to build [configure: error: Linux kernel in /lib/modules/XXX/build is version XXX, but version newer than 3.12.x is not supported]" [Medium,Invalid] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1369294
<jamespage> gnuoy, I've marked that bug as invalid - the fix is in curtin which is inflight
<jamespage> and that one is also invalid
<jamespage> done
<gnuoy> ok, let's move on
<jamespage> agreed
<gnuoy> #subtopic Blueprints
<gnuoy> #link http://status.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-v/group/topic-v-server.html
<gnuoy> #link https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/topic-v-server
<gnuoy> insert-blueprint-update-request-here
<gnuoy> anything anyone wants to add here?
<gnuoy> #topic Server & Cloud Bugs (caribou)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Server & Cloud Bugs (caribou)
<caribou> gnuoy: nothing important on my side, thanks
<gnuoy> caribou, ?
<gnuoy> caribou, thanks
<gnuoy> #topic Weekly Updates & Questions for the QA Team (psivaa)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Weekly Updates & Questions for the QA Team (psivaa)
<gnuoy> psivaa_, anything from your side?
<gnuoy> #topic Weekly Updates & Questions for the Kernel Team (smb, sforshee, arges)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Weekly Updates & Questions for the Kernel Team (smb, sforshee, arges)
<gnuoy> Any updates and/or questions for the Kernel Team?
<arges> No updates from the kernel team. Feed us bugs please.
<beisner> gnuoy, /me still needs to work with QA team re: psivaa_ moving on to another team
<beisner> gnuoy, ie. new qa team rep
<gnuoy> #action beisner work with QA team re: psivaa_ moving on to another team ie. new qa team rep
<meetingology> ACTION: beisner work with QA team re: psivaa_ moving on to another team ie. new qa team rep
<gnuoy> beisner, ta
<gnuoy> arges, will do, thanks
<gnuoy> #topic Ubuntu Server Team Events
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Ubuntu Server Team Events
<gnuoy> I guess the holiday season means there are no server related events for the next few weeks
<gnuoy> #topic Open Discussion
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Open Discussion
<gnuoy> #topic Announce next meeting date and time
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Announce next meeting date and time
<gnuoy> Shall we say 2015-01-06 16:00 UTC for the next meeting?
<gnuoy> I think we shall
<gnuoy> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Tue Dec 16 16:25:29 2014 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2014/ubuntu-meeting.2014-12-16-16.01.moin.txt
<caribou> gnuoy: thanks
<gnuoy> My pleasure
<chiluk> o/
<hallyn> \o
<chiluk> hah..
<cking> O/
<chiluk> someone needs to start the meeting if there is indeed going to be one.
<jsalisbury> #startmeeting
<jsalisbury> ##
<jsalisbury> ## This is the Ubuntu Kernel Team weekly status meeting.
<jsalisbury> ##
<jsalisbury> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/Meeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Tue Dec 16 17:02:32 2014 UTC.  The chair is jsalisbury. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
<jsalisbury> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/ReleaseStatus/Vivid
<jsalisbury> # Meeting Etiquette
<jsalisbury> #
<jsalisbury> # NOTE: '..' indicates that you are finished with your input.
<jsalisbury> #       'o/' indicates you have something to add (please wait until you are recognized)
<jsalisbury> Roll Call for Ubuntu Kernel Weekly Status Meeting
<cking> o/
<chiluk> o/
<kamal> o/
<henrix> o/
<jsalisbury> :1
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] Release Metrics and Incoming Bugs (jsalisbury)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Release Metrics and Incoming Bugs (jsalisbury)
<jsalisbury> Release metrics and incoming bug data can be reviewed at the following link:
<jsalisbury> [LINK] http://people.canonical.com/~kernel/reports/kt-meeting.txt
<jsalisbury> ..
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] Status: Vivid Development Kernel (ogasawara)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Status: Vivid Development Kernel (ogasawara)
<ogasawara_> yeek, already!!
<ogasawara_> just a sec
<ogasawara_> The master-next branch of our Vivid kernel remains rebased to the
<ogasawara_> final v3.18 upstream kernel.  We have pushed uploads to our team's PPA
<ogasawara_> for preliminary testing.  We are still debating on uploading to the
<ogasawara_> archive after Alpha1 releases this week.  However, we may opt to wait
<ogasawara_> until everyone returns from holiday after the new year.
<ogasawara_> -----
<ogasawara_> Important upcoming dates:
<ogasawara_> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/VividVervet/ReleaseSchedule
<ogasawara_> Thurs Dec 18 - Vivid Alpha 1 (~2 days away)
<ogasawara_> Fri Jan 9 - 14.04.2 Kernel Freeze (~3 weeks away)
<ogasawara_> Thurs Jan 22 - Vivid Alpha 2 (~5 weeks away)
<ogasawara_> Thurs Feb 5 - 14.04.2 Point Release (~7 weeks away)
<ogasawara_> ..
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] Status: CVE's
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Status: CVE's
<jsalisbury> The current CVE status can be reviewed at the following link:
<jsalisbury> http://people.canonical.com/~kernel/cve/pkg/ALL-linux.html
<jsalisbury> ..
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] Status: Stable, Security, and Bugfix Kernel Updates - Utopic/Trusty/Precise/Lucid (bjf/henrix/kamal/arges)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Status: Stable, Security, and Bugfix Kernel Updates - Utopic/Trusty/Precise/Lucid (bjf/henrix/kamal/arges)
<bjf> Status for the main kernels, until today:
<bjf>   *   Lucid - Prep
<bjf>   * Precise - Prep
<bjf>   *  Trusty - Prep
<bjf>   *  Utopic - Prep
<bjf>  
<bjf> Current opened tracking bugs details:
<bjf>   * http://kernel.ubuntu.com/sru/kernel-sru-workflow.html
<bjf> For SRUs, SRU report is a good source of information:
<bjf>   * http://kernel.ubuntu.com/sru/sru-report.html
<bjf>  
<bjf>  
<bjf> Schedule:
<bjf>  
<bjf> cycle: 12-Dec through 10-Jan
<bjf> ====================================================================
<bjf>          12-Dec   Last day for kernel commits for this cycle
<bjf> 14-Dec - 20-Dec   Kernel prep week.
<bjf> 21-Dec - 10-Jan   Bug verification; Regression testing; Release
<bjf> ..
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] Open Discussion or Questions? Raise your hand to be recognized (o/)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Open Discussion or Questions? Raise your hand to be recognized (o/)
<jsalisbury> Thanks everyone
<jsalisbury> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Tue Dec 16 17:07:47 2014 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2014/ubuntu-meeting.2014-12-16-17.02.moin.txt
<kamal> thanks jsalisbury
<Cugel> Hello people.
<Fermata> Evening, Cugel.
<danialbehzadi> Hey dudes,
<danialbehzadi> Can I ask who is the head of Ubuntu community council now?
<danialbehzadi> Just curious :D
<genii> danialbehzadi: This channel is for team meetings. You might get a better response in #ubuntu-irc
<danialbehzadi> genii: thanks
<Kilos> evening all
<OerHeks> Hi Kilos
<Lionthinker> hi all
<nlsthzn> that sounds like an old witch to me :D
<nlsthzn> o/ btw
<Kilos> hehe
<Kilos> #ubuntu-za is arriving
<superfly> ohi
<superfly> ooo, I see wendar is here too.
<nuvolari> o/ oh hi everyone
<elfy> nlsthzn: your meeting started yet?
<nlsthzn> nope
<nlsthzn> in ten minutes or so
<nlsthzn> council meeting
 * nlsthzn is here to lurk
<theblazehen> oh wow, almost time..
<elfy> danialbehzadi: there is no head of Community Council - but there is one person who's always in it - sabdfl
<danialbehzadi> elfy: thanks
<nlsthzn> slardybartfarl
<Lionthinker> elfy, will sabdfl attend?
<elfy> everyone else is there because people in the community voted for them - much to my shock at the time :)
<nlsthzn> everyone knows democracy works >.>
<nlsthzn> :p
<elfy> Lionthinker: no idea I'm afraid - no-one from CC is needed anyway - this is LoCo stuff
<skellat_> jose: I seem to have forgotten my correct NickServ password while on-campus
<inetpro> good evening everyone
<nuvolari> hello inetpro
<magespawn> good evening
<theblazehen> hi inetpro
<Kilos> hi inetpro
<nlsthzn> o/
<inetpro> guess it's not really evening for everyone here
<costales> Hi everybody! :)
<Kilos> hi costales
<costales> Kilos, |o/
<nlsthzn> o/
<maiatoday> hi all
<nlsthzn> \o
<Lionthinker> And its not a public holiday for everyone as it is in ZA land
<captine> Evening all.  Public holidays are great... except when spent doing home maintenance....
<Cees> hi all, it is evening in NL but a working day
<Vistaus> Good night!
<Vistaus> I'm here on behalf of Ubuntu-NL so if during the meeting you have any questions, feel free to ask me :)
<alpacaherder> #startmeeting Regular LoCo Council Meeting for December 2014
<meetingology> Meeting started Tue Dec 16 20:00:30 2014 UTC.  The chair is alpacaherder. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Regular LoCo Council Meeting for December 2014 | Current topic:
<alpacaherder> Good morning/afternoon/evening -- please delete as appropriate
<alpacaherder> #topic Opening Business
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Regular LoCo Council Meeting for December 2014 | Current topic: Opening Business
<Vistaus> I'm here on behalf of Ubuntu-NL so if during the meeting you have any questions, feel free to ask me :)
<alpacaherder> #subtopic Listing of Sitting Members of LoCo Council
<alpacaherder> #info Pablo Rubianes, term expiring 2015-04-16
<alpacaherder> #info Marcos Costales, term expiring 2015-04-16
<alpacaherder> #info For the avoidance of uncertainty and doubt, it is necessary to list the members of the council who are presently serving active terms.
<alpacaherder> #info Jose Antonio Rey, term expiring 2015-10-04
<alpacaherder> #info Sergio Meneses, term expiring 2015-10-04
<alpacaherder> #info Stephen Michael Kellat, term expiring 2015-10-04
<alpacaherder> #info Bhavani Shankar, term expiring 2016-11-29
<alpacaherder> #info Nathan Haines, term expiring 2016-11-30
<alpacaherder> #subtopic Change in Council Composition
<alpacaherder> #info Elizabeth Krumbach Joseph, a member of Community Council, announced the appointments of Bhavani Shankar and Nathan Haines on 2014-12-11.
<alpacaherder> #link http://fridge.ubuntu.com/2014/12/11/welcome-new-and-returning-members-of-the-ubuntuloco-council/
<alpacaherder> I am reminded to be less formal.
<coolbhavi> o/
<alpacaherder> However I do want to ensure that this is included in what is eventually copy/pasted in the blog post.
<jose> meh, hello everyone!
<alpacaherder> #subtopic Introductions by Bhavani Shankar and Nathan Haines
<theblazehen> Hi jose !
<coolbhavi> hey jose nhaines
<Kilos> hi jose
<jose> #chairs nhaines alpacaherder coolbhavi PabloRubianes costales
<jose> #chair nhaines alpacaherder coolbhavi PabloRubianes costales
<meetingology> Current chairs: PabloRubianes alpacaherder coolbhavi costales nhaines
<jose> #voters nhaines alpacaherder coolbhavi PabloRubianes costales
<meetingology> Current voters: PabloRubianes alpacaherder coolbhavi costales nhaines
<alpacaherder> Bhavani, Nathan, could you please take a moment to introduce yourselves?
<jose> no need to do all that stuff, alpacaherder :)
<nhaines> Thank you, alpacaherder.  :)
<jose> hey theblazehen, coolbhavi and Kilos :)
<nhaines> My name is Nathan Haines, and I'm an author, instructor, and computer technician who has been using Linux since 1994.  I was skeptical when Ubuntu was announced, but once I tried 5.04, I was hooked and I've been an advocate ever since.
<nhaines> I've been a leader in the Ubuntu California LoCo Team since 2007, held the first Ubucon in 2010 which I coordinated for three years, and hosted one of the first and longest running Ubuntu Hours.  I currently also help moderate /r/Ubuntu on reddit. As a longtime contributor to the Ubuntu community through many changes, I look forward to working to represent the LoCo community among the other councils and working with each team when needed.
<coolbhavi> jose,  :) thanks!
<PabloRubianes> Welcome to the Council
<coolbhavi> I am Bhavani Shankar a sitting member of the LoCo Council from 2012 and a ubuntu contributor from 7 years
<costales> Welcome coolbhavi & nhaines :D Great to have you on board!!
<alpacaherder> Okay
<jose> welcome again
<alpacaherder> Welcome back coolbhavi and welcome aboard nhaines
<alpacaherder> #subtopic Quorum Call
<coolbhavi> thanks costales alpacaherder jose :)
<alpacaherder> #vote Quorum Call (All Members Present To Vote In Favor To Register Attendance)
<meetingology> Please vote on: Quorum Call (All Members Present To Vote In Favor To Register Attendance)
<meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (for private voting, private message me with 'vote +1/-1/+0 #channelname)
<alpacaherder> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from alpacaherder
<nhaines> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from nhaines
<costales> +1
<coolbhavi> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from costales
<meetingology> +1 received from coolbhavi
<PabloRubianes> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from PabloRubianes
<jose> +1
<alpacaherder> #voters nhaines alpacaherder coolbhavi PabloRubianes costales jose
<meetingology> Current voters: PabloRubianes alpacaherder coolbhavi costales jose nhaines
<alpacaherder> jose: Try again
<jose> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from jose
 * jose gives meetingology a cookie
<alpacaherder> No word from Sergio?
<jose> nope
<OerHeks> +1
<alpacaherder> #endvote
<meetingology> Voting ended on: Quorum Call (All Members Present To Vote In Favor To Register Attendance)
<meetingology> Votes for:6 Votes against:0 Abstentions:0
<meetingology> Motion carried
<alpacaherder> #topic Verifications and Re-Verifications
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Regular LoCo Council Meeting for December 2014 | Current topic: Verifications and Re-Verifications
<alpacaherder> #subtopic South Africa
<alpacaherder> #link https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ZATeam
<superfly> That's us.
<alpacaherder> Who is here to speak for South Africa?
<superfly> maiatoday: you?
<maiatoday> There are a few of us, I am the LoCo contact
<nuvolari> \o/ we're up
<alpacaherder> Excellent.
<nlsthzn> \o/
<alpacaherder> #link https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ZATeam/ReVerificationApplication2014
<Kilos> here
<alpacaherder> Tell us a bit about what is happening with the South Africa community and please speak to your application.
<Lionthinker> also me
<maiatoday> My fellow team members prepared the reverificationapplication
<maiatoday> Or LoCo is distributed over a large geographic area
<maiatoday> this means that most of our activities are online
<maiatoday> pockets of people also meet face to face
<maiatoday> We have seen a drop in numbers lately but we have a core group that are maintaining activity
<inetpro> like Kilos
<maiatoday> If you have specific questions about our re-verification page, the people who prepared the page are here and they can answer
<alpacaherder> Tell us what is to the positive and what is to the "needs work" side of things.
<maiatoday> Do any of the ubuntu-za people want to add anything?
<maiatoday> The positive is that we have good communication on the mailing list and in the irc channel.
<Lionthinker> we are really supportive of "newbies" and problem seekers
<maiatoday> Anybody who asks questions in irc always gets a friendly welcome
<nlsthzn> positive - active mailing lists and IRC channel for support and social... needs work; new blood needed
<jose> so, I only see 1 event on the LTP for 2014, is there a reason why it wasn't that used?
<theblazehen> maiatoday: agreed, friendliest channel I've ever joined
<Lionthinker> Needs work - besides launch parties we haven't or are unable to host larger events
<inetpro> it's been a busy/tough year for me, but I'm sure we can keep things up and many people are still interested to keep things going, we just have to keep it going
<coolbhavi> How do you think the activity went down and any specific roadmap for the same?
<maiatoday> also we are very distributed so if you organise an event only a few people are able to attend
<nhaines> Dwindingly membership is a concern for LoCos that cover a large geographical area.  What do you think is the best opportunity to increase interest in LoCo activities?
<nuvolari> +1 on needing new blood. We're finding it hard to maintain the pace as a lot of us have tight work requirements and find it difficult to get around
<jose> Lionthinker: do you think the ability to add virtual events would make you register more events?
<Lionthinker> Positive, we have a very wide age range and different people have different problems but each time support is forthcoming
<Lionthinker> Jose the problem is internet penetration in SA, right now the bandwidth costs are exhorbitant, but yes it is an option which hasn't really been explored
<superfly> jose: Probably. We have an IRC meeting every month, and we could add that to the LTP
<nlsthzn> I think the surge of people that where in uni and college with the initial start of ubuntu is now long gone and we need to focus again on education of those areas and high school to get people active again
<jose> superfly: I believe IRC meetings can be added as *meetings* rather than events. but it's a different topic :)
<magespawn> also the range of support is very broad from basic to in depth
<maiatoday> I think virtual events may help existing Loco members but it may be difficult to get new members like that
<costales> I really like see you working in the SFD! About the Global Jams, were they face to face or online? :)
<Lionthinker> I can say that Ubuntu ZA members are active in other platforms, and are proudly Ubuntu supporters.
<alpacaherder> Okay, so you've got a broad geographic area that you want to cover with virtual events **but** you also have the problem of limited broadband penetration.  What is a ballpark guess for ballpark penetration in-country?
<inetpro> some of our most active members have migrated to the USA and other places on the globe
<superfly> costales: face-to-face, I went to one or two.
 * alpacaherder goes to hunt up some reference sources too
<maiatoday> I went to some face to face Global Jams
<costales> superfly, nice :)
 * superfly even has a package in Ubuntu
<superfly> :-P
 * coolbhavi remembers highvoltage as the face of ZA for a long time :)
<magespawn> i live pretty far away so i followed online
<nhaines> I like that you have identified shrinking membership as a problem and have analyzed the causes.  Sometimes it's easy to lose track of that.
<nlsthzn> we have been bad at capturing some of the events... people not blogging or no photos etc >.<
<captine> alpacaherder, per one of the ISP's, it is around 40%.  Most people are at work.  Not sure how reliable the source is
<Lionthinker> alpacaherder,  out of 50 million people, cellphone usage is very high, however far fewer are smartphones, most internet done on 3g and then from ADSL it drops to only a few million
<alpacaherder> For reference sake we've got a breakdown of where SA stands in terms of hosts here: https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/rankorder/2184rank.html?countryname=South%20Africa&countrycode=sf&regionCode=afr&rank=23#sf
<captine> http://blog.webafrica.co.za/general/latest-statistics-south-african-internet-penetration/
<maiatoday> also a alot of internet users in south africa only have online access from a mobile device not a pc, so they are not likely to get involved in ubuntu
<alpacaherder> And for usage sake, CIA World Factbook claims this ranking too: https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/rankorder/2153rank.html?countryname=South%20Africa&countrycode=sf&regionCode=afr&rank=54#sf
<nhaines> nlsthzn: that would be a really good thing to work on.  Blogging about events and posting photos makes people more likely to attend future events!  :)
<alpacaherder> maiatoday: That does seem to be a trend across the continent where Internet is tied mostly to 3G/mobile devices
<captine> alpacaherder, I only started getting into Linux and Ubuntu about 2 years ago when I could afford more than a 384k adsl line :)
<alpacaherder> captine: I understand
<Lionthinker> nhaines, this is true, blogging is something we could prioritise
<nuvolari> I'm at the mercy of mobile connections but at a friend's place tonight
<Lionthinker> I still only have 3G
 * nlsthzn has had a blog tied to planet.ubuntu.com for ages but never use it :/
<costales> nlsthzn, it's OK :) Nice to see you are using the LoCo Portal :D http://loco.ubuntu.com/teams/ubuntu-za/events/history/
<Kilos> also only 3g
<Lionthinker> working nicely tonight #breathasighofrelief
<alpacaherder> To throw an idea out there, would anybody in SA consider making a request on the Community Budget to get a demo phone or two of Ubuntu Touch to show off?
<Lionthinker> alpacaherder, I would
<Lionthinker> without a doubt
<nlsthzn> that would be awesome!
<nhaines> It sounds like launch parties and DVD distribution can be extra effective there.  Poor penetration was one of the reasons that Ubuntu was founded and is limited to only one disc!
<coolbhavi> Understandable coming from subcontinent myself reg Internet speeds :)
<Lionthinker> Our tech journos would go craxy
<magespawn> you will have a lot of people asking that one
<inetpro> alpacaherder: that would be very cool
<superfly> oooo, I can get MyBroadband to review it
<maiatoday> nhaines, I have done all the DVD distributions in the past
<alpacaherder> That would be something to look at here: http://community.ubuntu.com/help-information/funding/
<Lionthinker> Tech central, hypertxt africa, there are countless
<nlsthzn> the distribution of the ubuntu-dvd's is something that has gone well for us
<maiatoday> I post parcels across the country
<nlsthzn> thanks to maiatoday :)
<Lionthinker> places that would review it, also there's the whole sabdfl thing in ZA land
<alpacaherder> :-)
<maiatoday> the last round went badly though due to post office strikes :(
<Kilos> thanks maiatoday
<Lionthinker> we were sad to hear only LTS's would be posted
<alpacaherder> Okay, can you name one priority where we could best assist your community or try to help break down barriers for you?
<nhaines> maiatoday: Thank you for working on that.  I've been in charge of that in California and I know it's a bit of work to get done.  Make sure you record those efforts on the wiki somewhere because it's very important, and thanks for your hard work organizing that.  :)
<maiatoday> :) pleasure
<Lionthinker> alpacaherder, that is a good question and I'm racking my brain.
<nlsthzn> I believe the ball is in our court at the moment to get things done and we know the council is there to assist if needed
<alpacaherder> It is okay if you don't have anything right now.
<maiatoday> I would say a few new members for the LoCo would be a great help
<Lionthinker> nlsthzn, well said
<alpacaherder> maiatoday: If you can find me a job down there...have passport will travel :-)
<nhaines> It sounds like you know the challenges in front of you and that's the important first step.
<superfly> alpacaherder: one thing we've wondered before is if there's any way for Ubuntu to be able to "autodetect" the #ubuntu-za IRC channel in XChat
 * nuvolari pledge to attend a meetup in Cape Town in the new year :P
<alpacaherder> superfly: That would fall under the localization project I've been playing with...currently no...
<superfly> I think a lot of people get Ubuntu, but then don't know where to get help from.
<alpacaherder> I'll have to take another look at ubuntu-defaults-builder, though
<Lionthinker> alpacaherder, I feel that more people use Ubuntu than are aware of the community surrounding it, for instance we have several organisations who have set up mirrors but that support and usage doesn't reflect in the community. So general disparateness is a problem
<superfly> I've had a couple of people I know recently ask me a question or two with regards to using Ubuntu (they installed it independently of me) and they don't know where to find support.
<nhaines> Lionthinker: could the LoCo reach out to those organizations and just touch base and start a conversation with them?
 * inetpro agrees 100% with Lionthinker and superfly
<Lionthinker> nhaines, yes it could
<Lionthinker> we could prioritise that and work towards greater cohesion
<superfly> I think the lack of connectivity plays a part in that too, because a lot of support is online, and they are unable to come online. So they resort to just Googling and reading tutorials at work, and then trying stuff at home.
<inetpro> IRC has also become somewhat of a barrier these days with so many different forms of IM around
<nlsthzn> ... we need more face to face stuff to help people without broadband
<alpacaherder> superfly: Cases like the lack of connectivity in South Africa is why I pushed to get apt-offline seeded on the Xubuntu discs to avoid chicken and the egg problems using it.  It is the only flavor that has it on the disc but it helps bridging those gaps.
<Lionthinker> inetpro, this is true, I only attend formal meetings on IRC for lack of time
<superfly> alpacaherder: yeah, Kilos has actually done some work toward something like that.
<alpacaherder> We're about half the way through the hour.  Members of the Council, how do you feel in terms of the discussion?
<alpacaherder> Are we ready for a vote?
<costales> alpacaherder, yes :)
<Lionthinker> alpacaherder, I have never heard of this but it might be something that the Loco Council can help us with as a tool for further dissemination
<nhaines> I think I've heard enough to make a decision.
<alpacaherder> #vote That the re-verification application be approved and that the period of verification be extended for a period of two years from this date.
<meetingology> Please vote on: That the re-verification application be approved and that the period of verification be extended for a period of two years from this date.
<meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (for private voting, private message me with 'vote +1/-1/+0 #channelname)
<alpacaherder> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from alpacaherder
<PabloRubianes> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from PabloRubianes
<nhaines> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from nhaines
<costales> +1 well done team!
<meetingology> +1 well done team! received from costales
<coolbhavi> +1 good work
<meetingology> +1 good work received from coolbhavi
<jose> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from jose
<alpacaherder> #endvote
<meetingology> Voting ended on: That the re-verification application be approved and that the period of verification be extended for a period of two years from this date.
<meetingology> Votes for:6 Votes against:0 Abstentions:0
<meetingology> Motion carried
<inetpro> \o/
<alpacaherder> Congratulations team.
<superfly> \o/
<costales> Congrats team! |o/ :D
<Lionthinker> lekker
<superfly> thanks!
<nuvolari> \o/
<Kilos> yay
<theblazehen> Yes!
<magespawn> \o/
<nlsthzn> thanks to the council for your time , keep up the good work !!!!
<inetpro> thanks guys
<nhaines> Please keep up the hard work.  It sounds like you have some great opportunities ahead!
<nuvolari> whoohoo! thanks!
<nlsthzn> \o/
<Kilos> thanks guys
<Lionthinker> we could translate but rather ask the sabdfl
<maiatoday> thank you all of ubuntu-za for everything you have done in the last 2 years
<coolbhavi> congrats ubuntu za!
<PabloRubianes> Congrats team!
<Lionthinker> thanks, appreciate it. lets keep up the good work
<nuvolari> thank you everyone!
<nlsthzn> good luck to the netherlands!!
<magespawn> thank you council
<alpacaherder> Lionthinker: Send an e-mail to the LoCo Council address so we can discuss apt-offline more after the meeting, please.
<alpacaherder> #subtopic Netherlands
<Vistaus> thanks nlsthzn :)
<Lionthinker> alpacaherder, will do and thanks
<Vistaus> That's us
<alpacaherder> Who is here to represent the Netherlands?
<OerHeks> thank you #ubuntu-za
<Vistaus> @alpacaheder me
<meetingology> Vistaus: Error: "alpacaheder" is not a valid command.
<Cugel> I'm from The Netherlands, for mental support.
 * alpacaherder reminds everybody that Twitter-isms make meetingology unhappy
<alpacaherder> :-)
<Vistaus> Sorry
<Vistaus> I'm here to represent The Netherlands
<alpacaherder> Excellent.
<Vistaus> and a few other team members are here as well
<alpacaherder> I know Marten said he couldn't be with us but please tell us about the good and the bad in the Netherlands.
<Vistaus> We've had less face-to-face events this year, but we do have a lot of activity on the forums. They have become more active lately
<alpacaherder> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DutchTeam/ReVerificationApplication2014
<Vistaus> and there's also a topic currently about how to promote Ubuntu better in The Netherlands which is currently 14 pages long and there's quite a few people coming out with good ideas
<alpacaherder> That's good
<Vistaus> We're also very active on Twitter and Facebook, mainly for promotion
<Cugel> And IRC.
<OerHeks> True, vraag.ubuntu-nl.org is growing
<Vistaus> Our website was a bit left behind, but as a member of the Dutch Web Team, I recently updated quite a bit of information.
<Cees> we maintain a Dutch wiki, helpful for Dutch language user.
<costales> Hi Vistaus !! Lovely country! :D http://goo.gl/NBRmWw
<Vistaus> We've also launched a Q&A Askubuntu style. It was kinda desolated in the beginning but it's becoming more active
<Vistaus> lol costales
<costales> :)
<Cees> dutch mill
<nhaines> I hope you are very proud of achieving a 98% translation rate in trusty.
<Vistaus> There have been a few arguments on the forums this year, but we've solved most of them
<Cugel> The translation community is very active, indeed.
<Fermata> And doing a great job, with relatively few people.
<Vistaus> We do have a lack of wiki members though
<Vistaus> Promotion didn't really attract any new members
<OerHeks> A member updated our fast support community support map based on openstreetmap http://kaart.ubuntu-nl.org/
<nhaines> There's an ongoing election to fill a vacancy on the gemeenschapsraad, which is the community council if my German doesn't betray me.  :)  Is that going smoothly so far?
<Cugel> fast -> vast
<Vistaus> OerHeks: not "a member", Johan is from the server team
<Fermata> He is a member of the Dutch community.
<Vistaus> nhaines: That vacancy has been filled recently
<costales> Well done, using the Portal :) http://loco.ubuntu.com/teams/ubuntu-nl/events/history/
<Vistaus> fermata: Yeah, I meant "not just a member" 'cause he has one of the most important roles
<nhaines> Vistaus: that's good to hear.
<Vistaus> and yes gemeenschapsraad is community council
<nhaines> I'm glad to see the team is keeping on top of mailing lists and working to streamline those.
<costales> Did you make any Global Jam in the last years? :)
<nhaines> Are they are major goals for 2015 that you're working toward?
<Vistaus> nhaines: The major goal for 2015 is to attract more wiki members so that we can update all of the important information for newcomers
<Fermata> http://wiki.ubuntu-nl.org/community/Jams/NijmegenSept2012 -- one of the jams.
<Fermata> There was one in 2011, too.
<costales> Fermata, great :)
<RawChid> costales: we did some Jams in 2011 and 2012
<Vistaus> The other major goal is to up the promotion as well. We've got a few ideas by community members recently and we and they are gonna work it out
<alpacaherder> Do you have plans to participate in Ubuntu Global Jam in February?
<Fermata> No that I know of.
<nhaines> It sounds like your members are quite enthusiastic.
<Vistaus> I also proposed for new virtual events to be held, but there's not much interest in that, it seems. Maybe if promotion ups even more then newcomers will want to take part in virtual events
<Vistaus> nhaines: they sure are :)
<Vistaus> alpacaherder: not that I know off, but I could throw up the ball on the forums
<alpacaherder> Members of the Council, are we ready to move to a vote?
<Vistaus> of*
<costales> alpacaherder, yes
<nhaines> I'm ready to vote.
<alpacaherder> #vote That the re-verification application be approved and that the period of verification be extended for a period of two years from this date.
<meetingology> Please vote on: That the re-verification application be approved and that the period of verification be extended for a period of two years from this date.
<meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (for private voting, private message me with 'vote +1/-1/+0 #channelname)
<alpacaherder> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from alpacaherder
<nhaines> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from nhaines
<costales> +1 team! thanks for your work!!!
<meetingology> +1 team! thanks for your work!!! received from costales
<maiatoday> congrats Dutch LoCo
<Cugel> Thanks guys, we appreciate your support.
<Vistaus> Thank you!:)
<RawChid> Thanks :)
<OerHeks> o/
<Vistaus> Thank you so much! :)
<Fermata> Thanks to the council. o/
<nhaines> You are definitely working very hard.  I wish you continued success, and I hope that you will let us know if we can help out.  :)
<Fermata> Board.*
<costales> :D Congrats!
<Cugel> Thanks again. Leaving now to do good deeds.
<costales> Cugel, ;)
<magespawn> Well done NL
<jose> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from jose
<alpacaherder> #endvote
<meetingology> Voting ended on: That the re-verification application be approved and that the period of verification be extended for a period of two years from this date.
<meetingology> Votes for:4 Votes against:0 Abstentions:0
<meetingology> Motion carried
<alpacaherder> If PabloRubianes were still present, he would have voted +1
<alpacaherder> #topic Referred Business
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Regular LoCo Council Meeting for December 2014 | Current topic: Referred Business
<inetpro> well done NL
<Vistaus> thanks :)
<nhaines> Keep being awesome, NL.  :)
<alpacaherder> "Initiate Study on Referred Issue: People are leading innovation *with* Ubuntu (the OS), but not *in* Ubuntu (the project)."
<Vistaus> we'll do our best nhaines :)
<alpacaherder> There was a community planning hangout in which an issue was referred to LoCo Council for discussion.
<alpacaherder> http://youtu.be/G4kpr0v9pD4
<alpacaherder> This builds off the "Leadership Actions" etherpad in which it is desired that change occur in the Ubuntu realm.
<alpacaherder> http://pad.ubuntu.com/LeadershipActions
<alpacaherder> To quote what we do have to work with from the Etherpad:
<alpacaherder> Problem statement --
<alpacaherder> People are leading innovation *with* Ubuntu (the OS), but not *in* Ubuntu (the project)
<alpacaherder> Proposed solution(s) --
<alpacaherder> Encourage LoCos to expand beyond Ubuntu OS focused events, examples:
<alpacaherder> * Robotic Operating System (ROS)
<alpacaherder> * Designers doing work on Numix, Moka, Quantum OS, etc)
<alpacaherder> * Docker
<alpacaherder> Our action item received at the hangout: Consider further and prepare a report for community consideration prior to March 2015
<alpacaherder> What is the pleasure of the Council?
<nhaines> As far as groups innovating with Ubuntu independently, I consider this a feature, not a bug.  It may be that LoCo teams can encourage interested members to bring these innovations back into Ubuntu where appropriate.
<alpacaherder> It looks like we'll need to refer this to the mailing list for further disposition possibly.
<nhaines> But it's really difficult to say that new projects should be adding extra work to contribute back to Debian and Ubuntu.
<nhaines> I'm willing to look further into it if we can get some clarification from the Community Council, perhaps.
<alpacaherder> #agreed Item to be considered further on mailing list
<alpacaherder> #topic Any Other Business
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Regular LoCo Council Meeting for December 2014 | Current topic: Any Other Business
<alpacaherder> Is there any other business before the Council?
<costales> I was thinking in it, I think they are really technical areas for a LoCo members
<alpacaherder> costales: True
<alpacaherder> We'll need to hash that out further since what we wound up with wasn't well-defined.
<costales> +1 alpacaherder ;)
<alpacaherder> Last call for any other business...
<alpacaherder> #topic Closing Matters
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Regular LoCo Council Meeting for December 2014 | Current topic: Closing Matters
<alpacaherder> #info The next regular meeting is scheduled for 2015-01-20 at 2000 UTC.
<alpacaherder> #link http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/fixedtime.html?msg=LoCo+Council+January+2015+Meeting&iso=20150120T20&p1=1440&ah=1
<alpacaherder> #info Those who have requests of the LoCo Council that arise prior to its next meeting are advised to write to the Council at loco-council at lists.ubuntu.com for assistance.
<alpacaherder> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Tue Dec 16 20:53:10 2014 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2014/ubuntu-meeting.2014-12-16-20.00.moin.txt
<alpacaherder> And I will get things posted when I get home from campus in an hour or two.  Thank you all for attending this meeting today.
<costales> thanks alpacaherder for your IRC support! :))
<nhaines> Thank you for charing today, alpacaherder.
 * alpacaherder is thankful the Wyse Windows Terminal didn't go kaboom either while talking about Ubuntu!
<coolbhavi> sorry my nick got cycled again thanks alpacaherder :)
<costales> ;) coolbhavi
<Kilos> thanks again guys. night to you all
#ubuntu-meeting 2014-12-17
<Tm_T> hm
<hggdh> #startmeeting IRC Team
<meetingology> Meeting started Wed Dec 17 18:02:29 2014 UTC.  The chair is hggdh. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | IRC Team Meeting | Current topic:
<hggdh> well. Welcome to another monthly meeting of the IRC Team. I do not expect much work today, so
<hggdh> it should be fast...
<hggdh> #chair Tm_T
<meetingology> Current chairs: Tm_T hggdh
<hggdh> #topic all: IRC team meeting in  4 minutes
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | IRC Team Meeting | Current topic: all: IRC team meeting in  4 minutes
<hggdh> dammit
<hggdh> #topic Review last meetings action items
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | IRC Team Meeting | Current topic: Review last meetings action items
<hggdh> ah now it is better.
<hggdh> I do not remember, or see, and pending items. Am I wrong?
<Tm_T> sorry I'm bit out of the loop currently
<hggdh> we move on
<hggdh> #topic Open items in the IRCC tracker
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | IRC Team Meeting | Current topic: Open items in the IRCC tracker
<hggdh> I myself do not have access to the IRCC tracker; one single item comes to my mind, though
<hggdh> we opened nominations for the two available slots on the IRC Council, and we finally have (more than) enough candidates
<hggdh> so I sent the list to the CC, and am now waiting on their feedback.
<hggdh> As soon as I have it I intend to start the voting.
<rww> \o/
<Tm_T> I am also waiting to be able to start rallying people to vote for IRCC nominations (:
<hggdh> heh
<Tm_T> we really need more blood to our ranks
<rww> oh, I had a question
<hggdh> indeed. Preferably warm blood ;-)... we have been sort of out of circulation
<hggdh> rww: please go ahead
<rww> Are those slots going to be full-term positions, or replacement positions for the rest of the term of the people they're replacing
<Tm_T> full term I hope
<hggdh> I do not know. I would personally consider them full-term; I expect I will be corrected if needed.
<hggdh> I will ask the CC about that
<rww> I'd guess full-term, but figured someone should decide *before* the results for the avoidance of doubt
<hggdh> rww: agree
<hggdh> #action hggdh to verify length of term for the two slots
<meetingology> ACTION: hggdh to verify length of term for the two slots
<Pici> I am here now.
<hggdh> #chair Pici
<meetingology> Current chairs: Pici Tm_T hggdh
 * Tm_T huggles Pici 
<Pici> (sorry, got distracted)
<Pici> huzzah
<hggdh> Any other point to be raised?
<hggdh> #topic Review Bugs related to the Ubuntu IRC Council
<Tm_T> biiig request at this point: let's have some calendar event for these IRCC meetings thad do have reminders
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | IRC Team Meeting | Current topic: Review Bugs related to the Ubuntu IRC Council
<Tm_T> as I keep missing the meetings /:
<hggdh> we only have one bug -- bug 892501
<ubottu> bug 892501 in ubuntu-community "Floodbots - need a re-write to be under ubuntu operator team control" [Undecided,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/892501
<hggdh> we have had some work done on replacement bots, but I am not up-to-date on it. anyone present cares to enlighten us?
<Pici> As I stated at the last meeting, we have unopaste right now, and Drone` is watching #ubuntu, but doesn't actually perform any actions based on what it sees.
<Pici> Has anyone been paying attention to what it reports in -ops-monitor? Any concerns?
<Unit193> (Slight correction: It watches: #ubuntustudio, #xubuntu, #kubuntu, #lubuntu, #ubuntu, and #ubuntu+1.)
<Tm_T> I have reading it occasionally but honestly I don't think I'm qualified to judge it as I am so badly out of the loop in this matter
<Tm_T> +been
 * hggdh does not have access to -ops-monitor
<rww> I don't have concerns about Drone`, personally.
<hggdh> #topic review of the factoid review review
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | IRC Team Meeting | Current topic: review of the factoid review review
<hggdh> I think we are going into too many reviews here
<hggdh> any reason why we should be (re)visiting this?
<Pici> hggdh: you have acccess now.
<rww> i think that one can go off the agenda from now on
<hggdh> Pici: ack, thank you
<hggdh> rww: +1
<Tm_T> +1 to rww
<Pici> I agree.
 * hggdh waits another 10 seconds...
<hggdh> ok
<hggdh> #topic Call for Operators
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | IRC Team Meeting | Current topic: Call for Operators
<hggdh> we do not have an open call for operators, but we do have some people asking to join
<hggdh> since I am not familiar with this piece of the game, I would rather pass the baton over to Tm_T or Pici
<Tm_T> yay!
<Tm_T> one moment
<hggdh> (this, of course, is one of the reasons why I added both as chairs)
 * hggdh is now, happily, an observer
<Pici> hi, sorry, got up from my desk for a moment.
<Tm_T> hggdh: where?
<Pici> So, we have a few pending people on the list.  I think the ones who are already operators should be approved, but the others seem to be somewhat random.
<Tm_T> aah
<Tm_T> Pici: agreed
<rww> fwiw, all of my op requests are because of troll activity that I was unable to stop because I wasn't opped at the time
<Unit193> http://paste.openstack.org/show/sTHCiu7Hpq54edInwajG/
<Pici> Unit193: nice.
<Pici> What do the numbers mean?
<rww> launchpad karma
<Pici> ah
<Tm_T> +1 for Valorie and Robert, Popey looks suspicious so don't know about him
<hggdh> po who?
<Tm_T> maaaaaybe we can give him some rights too
<Tm_T> hggdh: Alan Pope
<rww> we could always give him access and then #blamepopey for everything
<Tm_T> hggdh: and I'm joking (:
<Tm_T> rww: true
<hggdh> heh, I know, was just adding to your suspicion
<Pici> I'll take care of the list for people who are already ops.
<hggdh> Pici: thank you.
 * popey ears prick up
<Pici> #action Pici to update access lists from op requests
<meetingology> ACTION: Pici to update access lists from op requests
<Unit193> The #xubuntu applicant doesn't have his IRC nick listed, but I don't believe I know who that is anyway.
<hggdh> For the others... can we get feedback in the ML for them? Positive, or negative, or neutral
<hggdh> can we move on?
<Pici> sure
<hggdh> #topic Membership applications
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | IRC Team Meeting | Current topic: Membership applications
<hggdh> none. So. moving on
<hggdh> #topic Any Other Business
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | IRC Team Meeting | Current topic: Any Other Business
<hggdh> Unit193: I think you had something?
<Unit193> Nothing this time.
<hggdh> ok
<hggdh> anybody has anything for here?
<Pici> not I
<teward> just an observation... if i may.
<hggdh> teward: please go on
<teward> (although a probably well known issue)
<teward> there are times where the core channels (such as #ubuntu) are subject to higher levels of disruptive activities which affect all userbase
<teward> such as last night, where there was a on-join CTCP bot sending CTCPs to users
<teward> those timeperiods have a noted lack of operators - it wasn't until I hopped into -ops and identified an op who was 'available' to look at the issue that it got addressed
<teward> whereas many individuals reported the issue in #ubuntu itself
<teward> I would call upon the IRC team to investigate and identify such lull times in operator availability and look into potentially finding ops who can fill those time periods of heightened disruptivity with some monitoring
<teward> (although this is not a recent issue, it has been present for a good bit of time)
<teward> (and will likely be an issue into the foreseeable future)
<teward> </done>
<Unit193> teward: So, you're done being done? ;)
<teward> heh
<hggdh> teward: ack. I am not sure how to deal with it, but we will discuss.
<hggdh> any other AOB request?
<hggdh> OK.
<hggdh> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Wed Dec 17 18:36:41 2014 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2014/ubuntu-meeting.2014-12-17-18.02.moin.txt
<teward> (note my timezone is GMT-5 if you want to get an accurate timereference, and it was late there, such as 21:00 and after)
<Tm_T> teward: that's something we've been trying to solve for a long time, at the same time we cannot lower the requirements of #ubuntu ops really, as it is quite special channel
<Pici> thanks hggdh
<hggdh> thank you to all
<Pici> :)
<teward> Tm_T: indeed, it still stands to reason it's an issue that should still be looked into where possible :)
<Unit193> Thanks, chairs!
<Tm_T> teward: I totally agree (:
<teward> (i only brought it up because as a bigger issue a CTCP bot throwing VERISON requests at users might be seeking exploitable clients)
<cariboo907> join /#ubuntuforums-fc
<cariboo907> #ubuntuforums-fc
<sarnold> cariboo907: /join #ubuntuforums-fc   :)
<cariboo907> thanks that worked.
#ubuntu-meeting 2014-12-18
 * stgraber waves
<stgraber> #startmeeting Ubuntu Foundations team meeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Thu Dec 18 16:00:21 2014 UTC.  The chair is stgraber. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Ubuntu Foundations team meeting | Current topic:
<stgraber> #topic Lightning round
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Ubuntu Foundations team meeting | Current topic: Lightning round
<stgraber> stgraber@dakara:~$ echo $(shuf -e barry doko stgraber jodh bdmurray slangasek cjwatson caribou infinity mvo sil2100 robru)
<stgraber> sil2100 slangasek bdmurray cjwatson barry mvo jodh doko infinity robru stgraber caribou
<stgraber> sil2100 isn't on IRC and slangasek is off, so that's bdmurray's turn
<bdmurray> errors updates: display message for devices that haven't reported a crash display retrace failure reason for a bucket speed up user=foundations-bugs for users subscribed to a lot of packages
<bdmurray> daisy updates: landed --nouse-sandbox daisy retracer option for testing speediness added retracer.py options to wipe sandbox and cache directories after each retrace
<bdmurray> modified javascript to prevent loading most-common-problems API query multiple times
<bdmurray> merged thedac's changes to daisy-retracer charm to hold packages (x2)
<bdmurray> uploaded packages to vivid to get ddebs for all architectures
<bdmurray> merged fix for ubuntu-release-upgrader / update-manager bug LP: #1399916
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1399916 in update-manager (Ubuntu) "/just/in/case:-)" [Medium,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1399916
<bdmurray> uploaded whoopsie fixing bugs LP: #1397340, LP: #1392412
<bdmurray> updated apport check-contents-server-age merge proposal based off pitti's feedback
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1397340 in whoopsie (Ubuntu) "Integer overflow when processing giant field values" [Medium,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1397340
<bdmurray> review of halted phased updates and overrode false positives
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1392412 in whoopsie (Ubuntu) "may frequently try to upload reports when server responds with 400" [Medium,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1392412
<bdmurray> submitted ubuntu-archive-tools mp with sru-review changes for ubuntu-sponsors
<bdmurray> pinged tseliot about bug LP: #1401390
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1401390 in hwloc (Ubuntu) "apt-get install nvidia-331 triggers 691 packages to be installed" [High,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1401390
<bdmurray> working with webops to test retracer changes to improve time to retrace in scaling stack
<bdmurray> â done
<cjwatson> 50% on holiday since last meeting.  New mattress and happier back!
<cjwatson> Ran Mathieu through the process of gfxboot-theme-ubuntu translation updates.
<cjwatson> Finished off changes to component-mismatches to categorise output by teams.  Should be generalisable to other reports without too ridiculous an amount of work.
<cjwatson> Helped out with ubuntu-touch-meta fix/workaround for bug 1399597.
<ubottu> bug 1399597 in oxide-qt (Ubuntu) "unity-scope-click autopkgtests with a package installation failure because of oxide codecs" [Medium,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1399597
<cjwatson> Rescued bits of cdimage crontab after some of it was lost by mistake yesterday.
<cjwatson> Worked on making update_excuses.html a bit friendlier by way of bug 1403849.
<ubottu> bug 1403849 in Launchpad itself "URLs for latest build of a DistributionSourcePackageRelease on a given architecture" [Undecided,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1403849
<cjwatson> Went through and closed ~120 browser tabs and unassigned myself from ~60 bug tasks.  See you next year from the Launchpad team!
<cjwatson> ..
<doko> "happy" new year :-/
<stgraber> barry and mvo don't seem to be around, so that's doko then
<stgraber> or jodh
<cjwatson> isn't jodh around?  yeah
<jodh> * working on ubuntu core.
<jodh> á
<stgraber> ah, there he is, just wasn't on mumble :)
<doko> - still working on the ISL 0.14 transition
<doko> - I think there is too much deadlock here waiting on things ...
<doko> - GCC 5 packaging updates
<doko> - some MIR's
<doko> - preparing for GCC 4.8.4
<doko> - address SRU icedtea-web regression
<doko> - trying to get my INBOX better organized
<doko> (done)
<infinity> * emergency kernel SRU wrangling
<infinity> * helped out cyphermox with some armhf alignment issues
<infinity> * worked on IBM RAS package updates
<infinity> * general AA and SRU tasks
<infinity> * worked on dpkg trigger loop bug with guillem
<infinity> * discussion and planning for a thing I can't talk about yet
<infinity> (done)
<stgraber> robru:
<stgraber> alright, no robru apparently
<stgraber> At the snappy sprint in CPT last week, back home on Monday evening.
<stgraber> Alpha-1 prep work on Tuesday, some LXD code reviews, organizing a LXD sprint.
<stgraber> Off on Wednesday.
<stgraber> More alpha-1 and travel organization today.
<stgraber> (DONE)
<caribou> Misc bug hunting :
<caribou> * iscsi boot
<caribou> * diskless NFS boot
<caribou> * CUPS env variable overriding
<caribou> (done)
<stgraber> I don't suppose anyone has something that they'd want to present to the team?
<caribou> My best wishes for the upcoming new year ?
<infinity> This basket of puppies.
<stgraber> :)
<stgraber> #topic AOB
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Ubuntu Foundations team meeting | Current topic: AOB
<doko> 30% of open positions  in the new year?
<stgraber> so I guess it's time to wish everyone a merry christmas, happy new year, ... and see you all at some point in 2015!
<caribou> http://paste.ubuntu.com/9561433/
<doko> well, would like to see
<caribou> from Mr cking expertise
<stgraber> :)
 * cjwatson waves, good luck to you all
<infinity> caribou: Do I want to compile that?
<cking> caribou, this one is better: http://smackerelofopinion.blogspot.co.uk/2013/12/infinite-snowflake.html
<caribou> infinity: sure, you'll get a nice song out of it
<caribou> cking: yeah, I saw your post, didn't get to compile this one yet
<cjwatson> incidentally I dug out the mail, we've been called "Foundations" since August 2008
<cking> caribou, or this one https://pastebin.canonical.com/122595/
<cjwatson> and the distro team split into platform (now foundations) and desktop in December 2006
<cjwatson> so it's been about that long
<stgraber> sounds like that's it for this meeting then, thanks everyone!
<stgraber> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Thu Dec 18 16:18:54 2014 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2014/ubuntu-meeting.2014-12-18-16.00.moin.txt
<dholbach> hello
<czajkowski> aloha
<GunnarHj> hi
<dholbach> I had to restart my computer... did somebody start the meeting already?
<mhall119> o/
<mhall119> dholbach: nobody has started it yet
<dholbach> ah ok
<dholbach> thanks
<dholbach> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Thu Dec 18 17:03:51 2014 UTC.  The chair is dholbach. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
<dholbach> #chair mhall119 czajkowski elfy cprofitt
<meetingology> Current chairs: cprofitt czajkowski dholbach elfy mhall119
<dholbach> pleia2 sent apologies
<dholbach> hello GunnarHj - thanks a lot for joining
<elfy> o/
<dholbach> today we're meeting up with the Translations Team and the Ubuntu GNOME team
<dholbach> #topic Catching up with the Translations team
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Catching up with the Translations team
<dholbach> GunnarHj, you're here for the translations team?
<GunnarHj> dholbach: Yes. Doing some translating coordination.
<elfy> hi GunnarHj
<dholbach> excellent
<GunnarHj> elfy: Hi
<dholbach> anyone here from the translations folks?
<dholbach> GunnarHj, how are things going? what is the overall stand of things?
<GunnarHj> dholbach: Well, there is one thing I'd like to mention.
<GunnarHj> dpm used to be an active translation coordinator from the Canonical side. AFAIK he has other commitments now, and nobody has really replaced him in that role.
<GunnarHj> The leader of the Swedish translators team mentioned this the other day.
<GunnarHj> The result is that there is a lack of drive in order to get translation related bugs fixed etc.
<dholbach> Which of his responsibilities do you see missing most today?
<GunnarHj> dholbach: Pushing for translation related bugs to be fixed.
<dholbach> "drive" could mean a couple of things, like "recruit new translators" or "keep on top of bugs and ping the individual teams", or is it something entirely different?
<dholbach> right
<GunnarHj> dholbach: Mostly "keep on top of..."
<dholbach> is this bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu-translations?
<mhall119> dholbach: sounds like we need to talk to him about handing over some of that to another of us on the team
 * mhall119 not it
<mhall119> :)
<dholbach> nice one
<dholbach> maybe somebody who's not around right now? :)
<GunnarHj> dholbach: Yes, it's bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu-translations I'm talking about.
<dholbach> but more seriously though, I agree that this is important
<mhall119> dholbach: +1, one of those slackers on holiday already
<mhall119> yeah, we'll get dpm to gracefully hand that over if he can't continue doing it
<dholbach> mhall119, I think this was years ago
<dholbach> so not something that changed recently
<mhall119> it probably changed more when he took over jono's tasks
<GunnarHj> dholbach: It was, but at the same time dpm has been deeply involved in getting translations into the phone.
<dholbach> mhall119, I don't think so
<dholbach> GunnarHj, ok
<mhall119> either way, we'll talk to him and get a resolution
<GunnarHj> Great!
<dholbach> GunnarHj, do the translations coordinators meet every now and then to discuss issues like the above?
<GunnarHj> dholbach: No. I'm the latest team member, and have never attended any such meeting.
<dholbach> and do most of the leaders of the individual translations teams read their bug mail? (so would subscribing them to the bugs work?)
<dholbach> GunnarHj, I see
<GunnarHj> dholbach: All team leaderas are supposed to be subscribed to ubuntu-translators.
<dholbach> maybe it'd be time to recruit some of the more active team leads into the coordination team?
<dholbach> GunnarHj, ah, that's a mailing list where the bug mail goes?
<GunnarHj> dholbach: When a t-bug is assigned a team, somebody usually takes care of it.
<dholbach> ok, that's great to hear
<GunnarHj> dholbach: No, that's a info type mailing list.
<dholbach> so it's mostly about going through the list of unassigned bugs
<GunnarHj> dholbach: There are two kinds of bugs: Pure translation bugs (handled by the translators) and package bugs affecting translations. It's the latter kind which is the problem.
<dholbach> I see
<dholbach> do they get a special tag or something which makes it clearer that it's not a pure translation thing?
<GunnarHj> dholbach: A proper task is added - if somebody knows which package is affected...
<dholbach> ok... maybe I'm drilling too much into the organisational parts of the problem right now
<dholbach> maybe a team of interested folks could set up kind of a dashboard or something, to figure out which bugs are unassigned, etc
<dholbach> I feel that having a team of coordinators again would also help a lot
<GunnarHj> dholbach: Yeah... the mailing list I mentioned is occationally used for that purpose.
<dholbach> so this doesn't just rest with your
<dholbach> you
<GunnarHj> dholbach: Right, that responsibility is to heave for a simple volunteer like me. ;)
<dholbach> I just thought that having a number of interested people meet up every now and then would also help, so you could have a look at tasks like "assign bugs" and so on
<GunnarHj> s/heave/heavy/
<dholbach> and maybe rotate some of the responsibilities as well
<GunnarHj> Wort considering IMO.
<dholbach> GunnarHj, if you could send the Community Council a mail and CC dpm that'd be good - we should look into this and see if we can help setting up a team again
<dholbach> translations are super important
<dholbach> it's the window through which most people of the world see Ubuntu
<GunnarHj> dholbach: Ok, will do.
<dholbach> so we should try to organise this a bit better
<dholbach> thanks a lot GunnarHj
<mhall119> +1 what dholbach said
<dholbach> and thanks a lot for all your hard work throughout the years
<mhall119> thanks GunnarHj
<dholbach> it's great to have you around!
<GunnarHj> np
<dholbach> GunnarHj, anything else you would like to mention now before we move over to mail?
<GunnarHj> No, I'm done for today. :)
<dholbach> czajkowski, cprofitt, mhall119: any more questions from you?
<dholbach> ACTION: GunnarHj to mail CC and dpm to figure out translations coordinator team organisation.
<dholbach> OK, looks like everyone else is good as well - moving on. :-)
<dholbach> Do we have anyone here from the Ubuntu GNOME team
<dholbach> ?
<dholbach> I can't quite remember, but wasn't most of the team in AU somewhere?
<elfy> both amjjawad and tim are in oz timezone - so unless someone else is here I would doubt it
<elfy> yep
<dholbach> ok, then we should probably reschedule :)
<mhall119> dholbach: none from me
<elfy> they were trying to sort a time suitable for both :)
<dholbach> ok
<dholbach> let's move on then
<dholbach> pleia2 added another agenda item
<dholbach> #topic Open ubuntu-community-team threads
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Open ubuntu-community-team threads
<dholbach> the comment said: Help the team continue to define work items in order to move forward.
<dholbach> elfy, mhall119, czajkowski: ^ got any comments?
<mhall119> I know some of the items in the etherpad were added by someone other that the proposer
<mhall119> so if the people who proposed solutions can go through it and provide detailed work items for the things they proposed, that would help us
<elfy> yep
<mhall119> and assign themselves to the ones they can do
<mhall119> unassigned work items don't get done
<dholbach> I could send a mail to the list explaining this?
<mhall119> that might help, yeah
<elfy> pleia2's point was about helping with blueprints - but they're pointless until the tasks have people willing to do anything
<elfy> dholbach: yep - sounds useful
<mhall119> dholbach: just remind people that if they want a work item done, they either need to take it on themselves or find someone to assign it to who can/will do it
<dholbach> ok... should I recommend that people add work items to the pad and people add their names next to the subject they're interested in?
<mhall119> yeah, they can be easily converted into a blueprint from there
<elfy> and/or add their name to existing nameless ones
<elfy> otherwise we're just going to end up with another long pad repeating things again
<dholbach> sure
<dholbach> sorry, that's what I meant
<dholbach> ok, I'll send the mail after the meeting
<dholbach> I'm not sure... is there anything concrete, we as the Community Council, could be doing in this meeting now?
<dholbach> http://pad.ubuntu.com/LeadershipActions looks quite cleaned up right now
<dholbach> ok, while waiting I just wrote the mail :)
<dholbach> elfy, mhall119: anything else from you now?
<dholbach> or shall we adjourn=?
<mhall119> not from me
<dholbach> Ok... thanks a lot everyone for attending!
<mhall119> anything other topics people in the channel want to discuss with the CC?
<dholbach> #topic Any other business
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Any other business
<mhall119> seems not
<dholbach> All right... thanks a lot everyone!
<dholbach> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Thu Dec 18 17:41:59 2014 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2014/ubuntu-meeting.2014-12-18-17.03.moin.txt
<mhall119> thanks everyone for attending
<mhall119> thanks dholbach for running this meeting
<dholbach> no worries :)
#ubuntu-meeting 2014-12-19
<michael_p> hello
<elfy> hello
<michael_p> So this forum is where the Ubuntu meetings take place, right ?
<elfy> it is - you can see when they take place on the calendar - http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars/
<elfy> top Fridge calendar holds the -meeting meetings :)
<michael_p> Thanks.
#ubuntu-meeting 2015-12-14
<tyhicks> hello
<tyhicks> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Mon Dec 14 16:42:52 2015 UTC.  The chair is tyhicks. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
<tyhicks> The meeting agenda can be found at:
<tyhicks> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/Meeting
<tyhicks> [TOPIC] Announcements
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Announcements
<tyhicks> Andreas Cadhalpun provided a debdiff for vivid for ffmpeg (LP: #1523692)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1523692 in ffmpeg (Ubuntu) " FFmpeg security fixes December 2015" [Medium,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1523692
<tyhicks> Thank you for your assistance in keeping Ubuntu users secure! :)
<tyhicks> [TOPIC] Weekly stand-up report
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Weekly stand-up report
<tyhicks> jdstrand: you're up
<jdstrand> hey
<jdstrand> this is a short week for me (I'm off friday til the end of year)
<jdstrand> I plan to catch up on various emails/irc from last week
<jdstrand> update libseccomp for mbarrier (a new syscall that mir on snappy is using)
<jdstrand> similar change to ubuntu-core-security
<jdstrand> update trello for various takeaways from last week
<jdstrand> update ubuntu-core-security for start of capabilities work
<jdstrand> and review tools updates related to capabilities work
<jdstrand> that's it for me. mdeslaur, you're up
<mdeslaur> I just released libxml2
<mdeslaur> and am currently trying to backport the git fix to precise
<mdeslaur> after that, I have a couple of embargoed issues to look at
<mdeslaur> that's pretty much it for me this week, this is my last week before I go on holidays until the new year
<mdeslaur> oh, and I'm on triage this week
<mdeslaur> sbeattie: you're up
<sbeattie> I'm in the happy place this week.
<sbeattie> I have an embargoed issue I'm researching
<sbeattie> I have some gcc-pie churn to deal with.
<sbeattie> I have some upstream apparmor things to look at as well.
<sbeattie> That and regular kernel process stuff will probably consume my short week, after which I will also be off for the rest of the year.
<sbeattie> tyhicks: you're up
<tyhicks> I'm on community this week
<tyhicks> I need to catch up email/IRC from last week while attending the Snappy sprint
<tyhicks> I have some followups from the Snappy sprint to get to
<tyhicks> I plan on tying up as many loose ends as possible this week before going EOY
<tyhicks> would like to get to some !AppArmor development but I doubt it will happen
<tyhicks> that's it for me
<tyhicks> jj is out
<tyhicks> sarnold: you're up
<sarnold> I'm on bug triage this week
<sarnold> it's a short week, and also my last four work days of the year
<sarnold> I'm going to start on the dpdk MIR this week, and I'm sincerely hoping it's small enough that I can finish it thisyear too :)
<sarnold> I may also review a few smaller apparmor patches
<sarnold> that's it for me, tyhicks
<tyhicks> thanks
<tyhicks> [TOPIC] Highlighted packages
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Highlighted packages
<tyhicks> The Ubuntu Security team will highlight some community-supported packages that might be good candidates for updating and or triaging. If you would like to help Ubuntu and not sure where to start, this is a great way to do so.
<tyhicks> See https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/UpdateProcedures for details and if you have any questions, feel free to ask in #ubuntu-security. To find out other ways of helping out, please see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/GettingInvolved.
<tyhicks> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/samba.html
<tyhicks> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/archmage.html
<tyhicks> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/sympa.html
<tyhicks> [TOPIC] Miscellaneous and Questions
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Miscellaneous and Questions
<tyhicks> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/nullmailer.html
<tyhicks> Does anyone have any other questions or items to discuss?
<tyhicks> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/jabberd2.html
<tyhicks> jdstrand, mdeslaur, sbeattie, sarnold: Thanks!
<tyhicks> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Mon Dec 14 16:57:03 2015 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2015/ubuntu-meeting.2015-12-14-16.42.moin.txt
<jdstrand> thanks tyhicks :)
<sarnold> thanks tyhicks :)
<sbeattie> tyhicks: thanks!
#ubuntu-meeting 2015-12-15
<kickinz1> o/
<rharper> \o
<arges> 4o/
<cpaelzer> hi
<rharper> arges: you should see the doctor about that other arm
<jamespage> o/
<beisner> o/
<arges> rharper: heh
<coreycb> o/
<jamespage> #startmeeting ubuntu-server-team
<meetingology> Meeting started Tue Dec 15 16:03:19 2015 UTC.  The chair is jamespage. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic:
<jamespage> #topic Review ACTION points from previous meeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Review ACTION points from previous meeting
 * jamespage looks
<jamespage> hmm no action points...
<jamespage> moving on
<jamespage> #topic Xenial Development
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Xenial Development
<jamespage> lets take a look at the release schedule
<jamespage> #link https://wiki.ubuntu.com/XenialXerus/ReleaseSchedule
<jamespage> Nothing this month apart from alpha-1 on the 31st - but server won't be participating
<jamespage> #subtopic Release Bugs
<jamespage> #link http://reqorts.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/rls-mgr/rls-w-tracking-bug-tasks.html#ubuntu-server
<teward> o/  (late)
<jamespage> updating to
<jamespage> http://reqorts.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/rls-mgr/rls-x-tracking-bug-tasks.html#ubuntu-server
<jamespage> http://launchpad.net/bugs/1514731
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1514731 in neutron (Ubuntu Xenial) "OpenStack Installation Guide for Ubuntu in Installation Guide Executable not found: conntrack (filter match = conntrack)" [High,Incomplete]
<jamespage> http://launchpad.net/bugs/1514482
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1514482 in walinuxagent (Ubuntu Xenial) "walinuxagent udev should be included in initramfs" [High,Confirmed]
<jamespage> http://launchpad.net/bugs/1510345
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1510345 in cloud-init (Ubuntu Xenial) "[SRU] Cloud Images do not bring up networking w/ certain virtual NICs due to device naming rules" [High,Triaged]
<jamespage> http://launchpad.net/bugs/1499620
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1499620 in python-oslo.log (Ubuntu Wily) "[SRU] Unintended assignment of "syslog"" [High,In progress]
<jamespage> http://launchpad.net/bugs/1510108
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1510108 in lxc (Ubuntu Xenial) "pre-installed lxc in cloud-image means loss of access to 10.0.X.0/24" [Medium,Triaged]
<jamespage> http://launchpad.net/bugs/1516085
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1516085 in cinder (Ubuntu Wily) "quotas calls fail when CONF.keymgr.encryption_auth_url is not configured" [High,In progress]
<jamespage> two unassigned - dosaboy is dealing with the oslo.log bug
<jamespage> and I need to follow up on the missing conntrack dependency thing
<jamespage> ok
<jamespage> #topic Server & Cloud Bugs (caribou)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Server & Cloud Bugs (caribou)
<jamespage> caribou is not around - but probably worth noting we have a haproxy SRU regression inflight - haproxy in trusty can't tell whether its running any longer
<jamespage> fix awaiting acceptance into proposed, but that is breaking ha deployments of openstack right now on icehouse.
<jamespage> #topic Weekly Updates & Questions for the QA Team (matsubara)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Weekly Updates & Questions for the QA Team (matsubara)
<jamespage> matsubara, anything from you?
<matsubara> jamespage, no news from me this week
<jamespage> #topic Weekly Updates & Questions for the Kernel Team (smb, sforshee, arges)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Weekly Updates & Questions for the Kernel Team (smb, sforshee, arges)
<smb> No news except that due to the coming end of the year there will be even less news in near future...
<jamespage> \o/
<jamespage> #topic Upcoming Call For Papers
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Upcoming Call For Papers
<jamespage> anything? FOSDEM is late Jan - anyone submitted talks?
<jamespage> #topic Ubuntu Server Team Events
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Ubuntu Server Team Events
<jamespage> Christmas!
<jamespage> awesome
<jamespage> #topic Open Discussion
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Open Discussion
<jamespage> anyone else got anything else to discuss?
<teward> hiya!
<jamespage> hey teward
<teward> nginx 1.9.6 is likely going to finally land as part of a merge now, though without HTTP/2 due to security team mandates currently in place
<teward> and i expect some headaches from users testing Xenial already hoping for that feature
<jamespage> glad to hear that - what are the limitaions with enabling http/2 ?
<teward> jamespage: security team concerns over the implementatio
<teward> n
<teward> blah
<teward> implementation*
<jamespage> so tricky to get through MIR right now?
<teward> sarnold is the one who sent the mandate down to me, watching -server and such for my noting to rbasak the merge was being worked on today
<jamespage> teward: ack - thanks for the update!
<teward> jamespage: i'd poke the Sec team with that question, AIUI they want it to go through some more 'world use'
<teward> so it's less 'fuzzy' (it's still being developed after all)
<jamespage> teward: I guess implemented != ready for production use...
<teward> note Apache has a similar mandate against it, confirmed by sarnold
<jamespage> okies
<teward> jamespage: nginx upstream says it 'is usable' but security team has their own concerns
<teward> and while I understand them, the merge delta is increased
<jamespage> teward: do you need support from anyone in the wider team around nginx?
<teward> jamespage: just a sanity-check of my latest debdiff.  and $50 in retroactive funding for the coffee I needed.
<teward> my note here was for situational awareness more than call for support
<jamespage> teward: lol
<jamespage> ok
<jamespage> anyone else for open discussion elements?
<jamespage> teward: btw that was an appropriate topic to raise in "Xenial development" IMHO
<teward> jamespage: i was late
<teward> :)
<jamespage> hehe
<jamespage> #topic Announce next meeting date, time and chair
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Announce next meeting date, time and chair
<teward> not my fault wifi here blew up
<teward> (will remember for future)
<jamespage> I'd suggest we adjorn for two weeks and start off the new year with a server team meeting on the 5th of January
<jamespage> so have a nice christmas and new year everyone!
<jamespage> 1600 UTC 5th January 2016
<jamespage> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Tue Dec 15 16:15:25 2015 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2015/ubuntu-meeting.2015-12-15-16.03.moin.txt
<teward> same to you, and to everyone else as well!
<kickinz1> thanks jamespage! Merry christmas all!
<teward> jamespage: thanks!
<cpaelzer> thanks jamespage, have a good time everybody
<teward> jamespage: sorry about being late, i will comment under Xenial Development next time :)
<jamespage> teward: no worries!
<rharper> jamespage: thanks!
<jamespage> I was late as well!
<teward> jamespage: also in response to your question, i found the opinion statement...
<teward> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/nginx/+bug/1510096/comments/2
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1510096 in nginx (Ubuntu) "Please merge 1.9.6-2 (main) from Debian Unstable (main)" [Wishlist,In progress]
<teward> (sarnold posted that per my req so there's a 'record' of it being documented, rather than a 'word of mouth' request/mandate)
#ubuntu-meeting 2015-12-16
<ingforigua> Hello
<marcoceppi> ingforigua: hello, one moment
<ingforigua> ok :)
<marcoceppi> ingforigua: It looks like we do not have quorum for this meeting to take place. I'm so sorry but we'll have to reschedule.
<marcoceppi> The next meeting will be Thursday Jan 7th at 20:00 UTC. If you're able to make that, please update https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Membership/Boards with your name in the queue
<ingforigua> Ok :(
<ingforigua> then when? the next board?
<ingforigua> nice
<elacheche> ingforigua, if you can't make it to the night board just tell us..
<Kilos> sorry ingforigua
<Kilos> elacheche try ping some more guys
<Kilos> they mus all be busy
<Kilos> t
<ingforigua> Here is 7 am zzz hehehehe
<elacheche> Oups! Sorry ingforigua
<elacheche> What's your TZ?
<ingforigua> at night is cool
<ingforigua> ;)
<ingforigua> greetings from colombia
<ingforigua> bye
<ingforigua> good luck
<marcoceppi> ingforigua: 20:00 UTC should be about 3PM for us on this side of the world, as an FYI
<elacheche> ingforigua, check PM
<Kilos> ingforigua sorry for the inconvenience
<ingforigua> no problem ;)
<Kilos> ingforigua you here
<Kilos> hang on
<Kilos> ingforigua welcome back
<ingforigua> hello
<Kilos> you naughty hey
<ingforigua> thx :) :) is a nice family, ubuntu colombia rocks
<Kilos> keep up the good work
<elacheche> :)
<Kilos> ty elacheche
<ingforigua> 8 am i must begin my work
<ingforigua> greetings from ubuntu colombia
<ingforigua> ;)
<ingforigua> bye
#ubuntu-meeting 2015-12-17
 * slangasek waves
<robru> o/
<sil2100> o/
<caribou> \o
<cyphermox> hey
<tdaitx> \o
<slangasek> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Thu Dec 17 16:00:45 2015 UTC.  The chair is slangasek. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
<slangasek> [TOPIC] Lightning round
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Lightning round
<slangasek> $ echo $(shuf -e barry doko bdmurray slangasek caribou infinity sil2100 robru cyphermox pitti tdaitx xnox chiluk)
<slangasek> pitti caribou barry xnox tdaitx doko chiluk infinity sil2100 bdmurray robru slangasek cyphermox
<pitti> win!
<pitti> autopkgtest:
<pitti>  - Unify the various testbed setup scripts for qemu, cloud, and containers
<pitti>  - Add support for checking out a test from bzr and git (triggered by moving ubuntu-make tests away from the dying s-jenkins)
<pitti>  - Add LXD autopkgtest image preparation script
<pitti>  - Test running armhf tests under LXD on arm64 instance in Scalingstack, successful now; first steps towards automated setup, now mostly blocked by too limited quota (RT pending)
<pitti>  - britney: Add direct log links to excuses.html (and yaml)
<pitti>  - britney: Fixes for working with PPAs on CI train
<pitti>  - Set up autopkgtesting on s390x, in production and running well since last Friday
<pitti> Misc:
<pitti>  - lvm2: investigate and fix long-standing upgrade failure (#1032823)
<pitti>  - mdadm: fix init.d script for insserv
<pitti>  - python-dbusmock: Fix test regressions
<pitti>  - Investigate seccomp regression on i386, file #1526358 with investigation and fast reproducer, bisect kernel change; thanks to apw for the fix!
<pitti>  - Review https://code.launchpad.net/~robru/bileto/enable-britney/+merge/278521
<pitti>  - Test lxd on s390x (#1524618), works fine now (just still inconvenient as there are no images)
<pitti> ð
<pitti> hey, where did my nice UTF-8 "END" disappear to
<xnox> pitti win!
<slangasek> it's right in front of you!
<xnox> pitti, i have it =)
<caribou> Bugfix :
<caribou> - rsyslog fails to start under upstart : More investigation
<caribou> - UEFI PXE installation - Investigating Maas implementation
<caribou> - crashkernel parameter tests
<caribou>   Will write an article on how to properly define the value
<caribou> - Nut merge : waiting for sponso
<caribou> - LP#1525271 CVE-2015-7529 on sosreport
<ubottu> ** RESERVED ** This candidate has been reserved by an organization or individual that will use it when announcing a new security problem.  When the candidate has been publicized, the details for this candidate will be provided. (http://cve.mitre.org/cgi-bin/cvename.cgi?name=CVE-2015-7529)
<caribou> â Done
<pitti> ð
<pitti> argh, sorry
<barry> gtimelog 0.10.0-1 (debian bug #807047)
<ubottu> Debian bug 807047 in gtimelog "gtimelog: Drop fix-icon-path patch" [Normal,Fixed] http://bugs.debian.org/807047
<barry> tox 2.3.0-1, 2.3.1-1, dirtbike, pip 7.1.2
<barry> pytest 2.8.5-1 (in progress; tests failures)
<barry> python-pytest-xdist 1.13.1-0.1
<barry> python-pluggy 0.3.1-1
<barry> LP: #1526455
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1526455 in unity (Ubuntu) "/usr/bin/unity:TypeError:/usr/bin/unity@205:run_unity:process_and_start_unity:match" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1526455
<tdaitx> pitti, shows up here, but I don't have the right char so it is replaced by a hex block
<barry> apt-xapian-index (LP: #1526450 & LP: #1526267)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1526450 in software-center (Ubuntu) "/usr/sbin/update-apt-xapian-index:ImportError:/usr/sbin/update-apt-xapian-index@104:setupIndexing:__init__:__init__:load_source:_load:_load_unlocked:exec_module:_call_with_frames_removed:/usr/share/apt-xapian-index/plugins/software_center.py@13:/usr/share/software-center/softwarecenter/db/update.py@33:/usr/share/software-center/softwarecenter/backend/scagent.py@26" [High,Fix released] https://laun
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1526267 in apt-xapian-index (Ubuntu) "Traceback from update-apt-xapian-index" [High,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1526267
<barry> review LP: #1463136
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1463136 in Ubuntu system image "Update archive-master.tar.xz file location to match si client 3.0" [High,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1463136
<barry> --done--
<barry> ^^ did that show up in irc?
 * xnox \o/
<xnox> * mono transition, stuck due to insighttoolkit4 failing tests on i386, and not yet built on amd64
<xnox> * server iso image testing, respins, debugging, fixes.
<xnox> * wrote docs
<xnox> that's it.
<xnox> it's my last day, and i shall be back on 4th of January.
<tdaitx> short&hectic week: had to step away for a few hours too many times (but back to normal now)
<tdaitx> continued squid3 merge
<tdaitx> provided freeipmi 1.4.11-1ubuntu1 merge - and then learned about sync requests (now filled @ LP: #1527306)
<tdaitx> openjdk bug triaging
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1527306 in freeipmi (Ubuntu) "Sync freeipmi 1.4.11-1 (main) from Debian unstable (main)" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1527306
<tdaitx> (done)
<tdaitx> doko, you are up
 * sil2100 pokes doko with a stick
<robru> so, no doko?
<sil2100> I guess so, chiluk ?
<chiluk> LP: #1523606 - fix for crash with 4.2 uploaded, waiting on SRU approval
<chiluk> LP: #1527062 - waiting on customer feedback before proceeding with upload/sru
<chiluk> LP: #1347788 - FTBFS's on ppc64, so I'm going to give the backport one more shot, then I might work on fixing the ftbfs for the merge.
<chiluk> LP: #1432871 - DF - Complete
<chiluk> (done)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1523606 in crash (Ubuntu Wily) "Incompatibility with 4.2 prints: crash: page excluded: kernel virtual address: ffff88105b1a0000 type: "fill_task_struct"" [Low,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1523606
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1527062 in linux-lts-wily (Ubuntu) "XFS Deadlock on 4.2+" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1527062
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1347788 in findutils (Ubuntu Xenial) "find crashed when current working directory is not readable and -exec or -execdir used" [Low,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1347788
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1432871 in coreutils (Ubuntu Wily) "`df` shows bind mounts instead of real mounts." [Low,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1432871
<sil2100> Oh, no Adam
<sil2100> Ok then
<pitti> he's on vac
<sil2100> - Landing team work, silo coordination, preparing landing e-mails
<sil2100> - Half-day off on Thursday
<sil2100> - RTM Status meetings
<sil2100> - Ubuntu touch seed sync-up, multitude of changes and clean-up
<sil2100> - system-image:
<sil2100>   * Changing the archive-master key location as per si 3.0
<sil2100>   * More tests in the testability branch
<sil2100>   * Work on the default phased-percentage bits
<sil2100> - OTA-8.5
<sil2100>   * Preparing release notes and announcements
<sil2100>   * Image promotion and tagging
<sil2100> - Image copies and manipulation for ubuntu-core releases
<sil2100> - Packaging reviews and releases
<sil2100> - Changes and discussions related to puritine and its framework workaround
<sil2100> - Landing Team tools:
<sil2100>   * Work on tool to fetch CI Train landing data for a released package
<sil2100> (done)
<bdmurray> mojo spec work - scripting modification of /etc/hosts
<bdmurray> mojo spec work - setting up cassandra in the charm
<bdmurray> identification of packages to update to trusty for the error tracker
<bdmurray> updating of packages to trusty for the error tracker
<bdmurray> fixed errors manage.py not to use deprecated execute_manager (LP: #1524593)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1524593 in Errors ""ImportError: cannot import name execute_manager" during syncdb on fresh deploy" [High,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1524593
<bdmurray> backported / uploaded patch for LP: #1267059 to precise
<bdmurray> sponsored patch for aptitude bug LP: #1507211
<bdmurray> foundations bug triage
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1267059 in unattended-upgrades (Ubuntu Precise) ""Unattended-Upgrade::Remove-Unused-Dependencies" does not work " [Medium,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1267059
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1507211 in aptitude (Ubuntu Wily) "aptitude segfaults during dependency resolution" [High,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1507211
<bdmurray> â done
<robru> p:cupstream2distro
<robru> * create an lp oauth token generator script to ease future deployments
<robru> * reduce (but unfortunately not eliminate) race condition in auto status setter.
<robru> lp:cupstream2distro/charm
<robru> * overhaul creds management, bringing it into line with IS standards
<robru> * make ppa team configurable
<robru> lp:bileto
<robru> * Enable britney for silos! Now every silo gets it's own excuses.html & autopkgtests
<robru> lp:bileto/charm
<robru> * drop workaround for postgres db table ownership instability
<robru> * make ppa team and amqp uri configurable
<robru> (done)
<sil2100> Yay for britney in train \o/
 * pitti ^5s robru
<robru> Awwww yissss
<cyphermox> slangasek: ?
<slangasek>  * working on initial s390x image release to customer
<slangasek>  * extensive discussions about the further provisioning of the zSeries systems now that the initial VMs are done
<slangasek>  * merge installation-guide from Debian so that we have an s390x installation guide (and a ppc64el one); merge done, review of updated content now in progress
<slangasek>  * working on merging golang from Debian together with mwhudson
<slangasek> (done)
<slangasek>  * my last day of work for the year is tomorrow
<slangasek> (double-done)
<cyphermox>  - finishing testing/upload tasksel
<cyphermox>  - merge / update pkgsel.
<cyphermox>  - merged partman-target, yaboot-installer
<cyphermox>  - merging console-setup
<cyphermox>  - ubiquity with mokutil integration ready to land
<cyphermox>  - debugging shim-signed ftbfs because sbsigntool doesn't like the new openssl
<cyphermox>  - other fun with -signed packages
<cyphermox>  - reviewed xnox's live-installer patches
<cyphermox>  - multipath-tools bug LP: #1503305 SRU to trusty
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1503305 in multipath-tools (Ubuntu Vivid) "iLab: power kvm client after svc node reboot error inject test, multipath output show missing path and missing storage name" [Medium,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1503305
<cyphermox>  - preparing patch for shim adding MokSBStateRT
<cyphermox>  - dkms integration for mokutil
<cyphermox> (done)
<cyphermox> I also have a question for pitti!
 * pitti does a jump to the left
<cyphermox> pitti: did you say before you were looking into the image tests in jenkins?
<cyphermox> or in not-jenkins I suppose
<slangasek> cyphermox: "a patch for shim adding MokSBStateRT"?
<pitti> cyphermox: they are being moved to https://platform-qa-jenkins.ubuntu.com/
<pitti> cyphermox: most stuff is there now, some remainders (like the ubiquity autopilot tests) are still missing
<cyphermox> slangasek: so that we can ask shim the state of secureboot from it's perspective -- basically, whether or not we're doing signature validation in shim
<xnox> pitti: interesting. is that private or public jenkins? i would like to automate some of my new installations....
<cyphermox> pitti: ok, I'll have a look. it seems like (at least yesterday) mark-pending-current wasn't running either because tests failed or it didn't run at all
<doko> sorry for being late ...
<pitti> xnox: it's a Jenkaas, so no public mirror for now, I think; but once s-jenkins and d-jenkdins go away,https://jenkins.qa.ubuntu.com/ can mirror that
<cyphermox> so desktop images were behind
<slangasek> cyphermox: did you mean mokutil, though?  you can't query shim at runtime
<slangasek> doko: your turn :)
<cyphermox> slangasek: it needs a patch in shim so that it starts mirroring MokSBState as MokSBStateRT (so it's visible on the booted system but not changeable), from there mokutil will be able to query it, or you could od -An -T u1 it.
<cyphermox> so, right now you know the state of Secure Boot in firmware, but you don't know whether shim will actually validate things completely.
<slangasek> cyphermox: mmm. but such a mirrored variable is not reliable
<cyphermox> why not?
<doko> - prepare test rebuilds
<doko> - track down an ARMv8.1 issue (assembler) for the kernel
<doko> - identify and backport an aarch64 llvm bug fix
<doko> - GCC Linaro merge (2015-12)
<doko> - backport some fixed for python 2.7.10 in trusty
<doko> (done)
<slangasek> cyphermox: because it can be edited after ExitBootServices() is called, so someone/something else might wipe it
<cyphermox> slangasek: this was from a discussion with pjones, his solution, after I filed the bug
<slangasek> I suppose that doesn't matter though
<slangasek> ok
<cyphermox> slangasek: I suppose
<cyphermox> so that point was basically "I filed the bug, and given some free time I will write the relatively simple patch to fix it"
<slangasek> alright, any other questions?
<slangasek> [TOPIC] AOB
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: AOB
<slangasek> no meeting next week on account of the holiday
<xnox> happy holidays =)
<sil2100> I'm also taking 2 days of holidays next week
<sil2100> But I'll be around the terminal since the snappy guys want to use my services ;)
<slangasek> sil2100: nobody heard you, they're all busy doing their Christmas shopping right now
<cyphermox> I'm taking the week of Jan 4-8 after the holidays.
<sil2100> Already?!
<cyphermox> sil2100: ?
<sil2100> cyphermox: that was to slangasek's Christmas shopping message ;)
<cyphermox> it's getting late to do your christmas shopping if you haven't already ;)
<cyphermox> I know ;)
<cyphermox> (unless you don't hate large groups of people like I do)
<slangasek> Amazon Prime Sleigh
<cyphermox> +1
<barry> slangasek: the drone has a red nose
<pitti> slangasek: no meeting on Dec 31 either I suppose
<slangasek> pitti: true!
<barry> people still go to the mall?
<cyphermox> what's that?
 * sil2100 feels sad now since he didn't do any Christmas shopping yet
<pitti> it's the internet being printed out!
<caribou> with 3D printers
<pitti> in THREE DEE!
<barry> :D
<cyphermox> wow
<cyphermox> endmeeting?
<bdmurray> I'm going to the mall because that's where the movie theater is.
<slangasek> heh
<slangasek> is there something good showing in the theater?
<cyphermox> Spectre.
<barry> hateful8 on xmas day!
<genii> I suspect a 3D printing of the internet would look like one of those huge balls of elastics you see at the fair
<barry> and some scifi thing or other
<doko> still begging about bzr and python3-defaults in the trusty queue ...
<caribou> SW : The force awakens opened here yesterday
 * pitti looks forward to SW
<pitti> and a beer with my friends afterwards to complain how bad it was compared to the old ones :)
<tdaitx> pitti, +1
<pitti> but maybe it's actually pretty good, critics sound well
<caribou> pitti: I read/heard raving reviews here
<slangasek> and we're to the Star Wars bikeshedding part of the agenda
<pitti> the last two star trek ones were soo awful, can't possibly get worse than that :)
<slangasek> so I think we're done ;)
<pitti> may the EOY holidays be with you!
<slangasek> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Thu Dec 17 16:29:26 2015 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2015/ubuntu-meeting.2015-12-17-16.00.moin.txt
<slangasek> thanks!
<cyphermox> o/
<barry> thanks!
<tdaitx> happy holidays everyone =)
<pitti> thanks everyone! see you next year
<cyphermox> happy holidays.
<caribou> thanks & happy holidays everyone !
<tdaitx> next meeting is in 3 weeks
<dholbach> Hello everybody... we'd normally have the Community Council around now, but we didn't get the invitations for team catchups organised yet, so we're without an agenda today... I guess it'd be good to just skip this meeting - please speak up if you would have had a topic to discuss for the CC.
<mhall119> o/
<mhall119> if there are no topics, I'd just like to wish everybody a happy holidays, and I look forward to us all being back in the new year, ready to make 2016 a great year for Ubuntu
<sgclark> second that ^
<dholbach> yes +1 to that! <3 :-)
#ubuntu-meeting 2016-12-20
<nacc> o/
<nacc> (a bit early)
<cpaelzer> o/
<jgrimm> o/
<powersj> o/
<caribou> \o
<jgrimm> i believe rbasak is on point today?
<rbasak> o/
<smoser> o/
<jgrimm> rbasak, i believe you are chair today?
<rbasak> Ah yes. Sorry!
<rbasak> #startmeeting ubuntu-server
<meetingology> Meeting started Tue Dec 20 16:03:03 2016 UTC.  The chair is rbasak. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server Meeting | Current topic:
<jgrimm> no worries
<rbasak> #topic Review ACTION points from previous meeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server Meeting | Current topic: Review ACTION points from previous meeting
<rbasak> Nothing here.
<jgrimm> \o/
<rbasak> #topic Development Release
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server Meeting | Current topic: Development Release
<rbasak> #link https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ZestyZapus/ReleaseSchedule
<rbasak> #link http://reqorts.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/rls-mgr/rls-z-tracking-bug-tasks.html#ubuntu-server
<rbasak> "Active work that may need wider communication"
<rbasak> Anything to discuss?
<jgrimm> nothing new there at all
<rbasak> #topic Server & Cloud Bugs & SRU/Pending Uploads (caribou)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server Meeting | Current topic: Server & Cloud Bugs & SRU/Pending Uploads (caribou)
<rbasak> caribou: o/
<caribou> \o
 * caribou getting the SRU list ready if you can wait a minute
<caribou> LP: #1447715 - dhclient -6: Can't bind to dhcp address: Cannot assign requested address
<caribou>   - Series to SRU : xenial
<caribou>   - Owners : Dan Streetman
<caribou> LP: #1452202 - ubuntu preseed install fails to set a hostname
<caribou>   - Series to SRU : xenial
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1447715 in ifupdown (Ubuntu Xenial) "dhclient -6: Can't bind to dhcp address: Cannot assign requested address" [Medium,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1447715
<caribou>   - Owners : Eric Desrochers
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1452202 in netcfg (Debian) "ubuntu preseed install fails to set a hostname" [Unknown,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1452202
<caribou> LP: #1579609 - os-prober bug resulting in possible FS corruption
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1579609 in os-prober (Ubuntu Xenial) "os-prober bug resulting in possible FS corruption" [Critical,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1579609
<caribou>   - Series to SRU : xenial
<caribou>   - Owners : Eric Desrochers
<caribou> LP: #1621340 - [SRU]'multipath -r' causes /dev/mapper/<wwid> being removed
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1621340 in multipath-tools (Ubuntu Xenial) "[SRU]'multipath -r' causes /dev/mapper/<wwid> being removed" [Medium,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1621340
<caribou>   - Series to SRU : yakkety xenial
<caribou>   - Owners : Unowned Hua Zhang
<caribou> LP: #1640382 - Segfault event notifier because of race condition
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1640382 in Ubuntu Cloud Archive "Segfault event notifier because of race condition" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1640382
<caribou>   - Series to SRU : trusty
<caribou>   - Owners : Seyeong Kim
<caribou> LP: #1640676 - [SRU] libvirt 1.2.12 live-migration corrupts some instances
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1640676 in libvirt (Ubuntu Trusty) "[SRU] libvirt 1.2.12 live-migration corrupts some instances" [High,Incomplete] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1640676
<caribou>   - Series to SRU : trusty
<caribou>   - Owners : Unowned
<caribou> LP: #1642903 - introduce disk/by-id (model_serial) symlinks for NVMe drives
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1642903 in systemd (Ubuntu Trusty) "introduce disk/by-id (model_serial) symlinks for NVMe drives" [Undecided,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1642903
<caribou>   - Series to SRU : trusty
<caribou>   - Owners : Unowned
<caribou> LP: #1648901 - SPNEGO crash on mechanism failure
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1648901 in krb5 (Ubuntu Xenial) "SPNEGO crash on mechanism failure" [Medium,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1648901
<caribou>   - Series to SRU : xenial
<caribou>   - Owners : Eric Desrochers
 * caribou is going to revisit the SRU list script to make it less bulky
<rbasak> I suggest just listing the package names if the goal is to prevent duplicate work/collisions on upload.
<rbasak> Maybe that list would be easier for people to remember, and they can always contact you with more details if needed (or look at Launchpad)
<caribou> rbasak: good idea
<caribou> minor tweak anyway
<rbasak> caribou: thank you for the list though! Do you have anything else for us? Any questions for caribou?
<jgrimm> nope. thanks caribou
<rbasak> #topic Weekly Updates & Questions for the QA Team (powersj)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server Meeting | Current topic: Weekly Updates & Questions for the QA Team (powersj)
<rbasak> powersj: o/
<smoser> caribou, you'll push on someone to sru team for cloudsigma cloud-init ?
<smoser> bah /me types too slow
<caribou> smoser: did already but didn't get any thing back
<rbasak> The SRU team is mostly likely to be on vacation until January now.
<smoser> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/cloud-init/+bug/1648380
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1648380 in cloud-init (Ubuntu Yakkety) "cloud-init fails to find CloudSigma datasource with cloud-init 0.7.8-1-g3705bb5-0ubuntu1" [High,Confirmed]
<smoser> well, it'd be good imo to get that into -proposed
<caribou> problem with this one is that, once SRUed, it still requires an image respin
<smoser> and also a cloud-init in yakkety -proposed with same fixes.
<powersj> howdy - short week did lots of bug triage, and continue to get tests happy again with yakkety containers. Still waiting on update from IS on that. Want to work with smoser to get my merge accepted for cloud-init, otherwise, bug triage and getting some small tests written.
<smoser> caribou, well, for them, they're using an old image as it is, so upgrade will work now (where before it would not i think) and yeah, they need a new image, but have to get into sru first.
<smoser> powersj, yeah, i want to get the tests in
<rbasak> Thanks powersj! Any questions for powersj?
<rbasak> #topic Weekly Updates & Questions for the Kernel Team (smb, sforshee)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server Meeting | Current topic: Weekly Updates & Questions for the Kernel Team (smb, sforshee)
<rbasak> smb doesn't appear to be here.
<cpaelzer> rbasak: smb is out alreay
<rbasak> OK, thanks.
<rbasak> #topic Upcoming Call For Papers
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server Meeting | Current topic: Upcoming Call For Papers
<rbasak> Anything coming up?
<rbasak> #topic Ubuntu Server Team Events
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server Meeting | Current topic: Ubuntu Server Team Events
<rbasak> Nothing of note I think.
<rbasak> #topic Open Discussion
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server Meeting | Current topic: Open Discussion
<rbasak> Anything else to discuss?
<rbasak> #topic Announce next meeting date, time and chair
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server Meeting | Current topic: Announce next meeting date, time and chair
<jgrimm> probably last mtg of the year?
<smoser> i think so.
<rbasak> Yeah there'll be no point having one next week.
<jgrimm> anyone disagree?
<jgrimm> tho you'd probably be the only one here. :)
<rbasak> So the next meeting will be on Tuesday 3 January, 1600 UTC. gaughen will chair.
<rbasak> Thanks all!
<rbasak> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Tue Dec 20 16:15:31 2016 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2016/ubuntu-meeting.2016-12-20-16.03.moin.txt
<jgrimm> thanks rbasak
<powersj> thanks rbasak
<caribou> "â«â«We wish you a merry christmas, we wish you a merry christmas and a happy new year â«â«"
<caribou> thanks!
<cpaelzer> thanks caribou
<cpaelzer> thanks rbasak
<cpaelzer> thanks everybody for a good year
<gaughen> thanks caribou now I have that stuck in my head
<caribou> gaughen: could be worse
<Guestie> Hi
<Guestie> Is the meeting happening in 24 minutes?
<Guestie> When does the meeting start? I want to make sure.
<sarnold> Guestie: which meeting? there was an ubuntu-server meeting in here that started two hours ago
#ubuntu-meeting 2016-12-23
<bluewireslight> Hello
#ubuntu-meeting 2017-12-18
<rbasak> o/
<ahasenack> o/
<jbicha> ð
<sil2100> o/
<BenC> o/ A bit sick, but here
<sil2100> I suppose we have quorum
<rbasak> I'd prefer to abstain as ahasenack is on my team.
<sil2100> #startmeeting DMB
<meetingology> Meeting started Mon Dec 18 15:01:50 2017 UTC.  The chair is sil2100. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | DMB Meeting | Current topic:
<rbasak> But I'll +1 to get a quorate vote as needed (I'm already +1 as I endorsed him).
<sil2100> rbasak: I would say it's not relevant that much, if you have are able to endorse someone as per his experience, I'm fine with counting your vote
<sil2100> Bias can appear everywhere
<sil2100> #topic Review of previous action items
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | DMB Meeting | Current topic: Review of previous action items
<sil2100> handsome_feng's two action items are done, right?
<sil2100> I think it's all done indeed
<rbasak> Yes
<sil2100> #topic Package Set/Per Package Uploader Applications
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | DMB Meeting | Current topic: Package Set/Per Package Uploader Applications
<sil2100> #subtopic Andreas Hasenack
<ahasenack> hello
<sil2100> ahasenack: hello o/ Could you please introduce yourself?
<ahasenack> sure
<sil2100> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/AndreasHasenack/UbuntuServerDevApplication <- application
<sil2100> http://ubuntu-dev.alioth.debian.org/cgi-bin/ubuntu-sponsorships.cgi?render=html&sponsor=&sponsor_search=name&sponsoree=Andreas+Hasenack&sponsoree_search=name <- uploads
<ahasenack> I started working on Ubuntu when I joined Canonical, many years ago (~2008)
<ahasenack> working on landscape as a QA engineer
<ahasenack> this year I switched to the ubuntu-server team
<ahasenack> and as can be seen in my uploads list, they ramped up
<ahasenack> I come from a server background, where I worked mainly with authentication/authorization packages
<ahasenack> and sometimes the email stack
<ahasenack> I think I can contribute to Ubuntu with that work on ubuntu server
<ahasenack> and the server package set seems a good fit
<ahasenack> I think that's it for a short summary
<sil2100> Ok, thanks - let's move on to questions
<sil2100> ahasenack: easy one first - if you have a version number like this 1:9.10.3.dfsg.P4-10.1ubuntu5.3, what is the first number before the : and what is it used for?
<ahasenack> it's an epoch
<ahasenack> used to fix mistakes in previous version numbers
<ahasenack> the epoch trumps the version comparison and wins
<sil2100> Ok
<ahasenack> although I've seen some tricks with the word "really" in package versions
<ahasenack> so it's used sparingly
<ahasenack> because it's really the last resort
<jbicha> let's say you uploaded a package to bionic last week and it's still only in bionic-proposed now, how would you find out why?
<ahasenack> I go to the excuses page
<ahasenack> wouldn't wait a week, though
<ahasenack> it could be help because its dep8 tests failed,
<ahasenack> or because dep8 tests in dependent packages failed
<ahasenack> there could also be a large queue due to some big migration that is triggering a lot of test runs
<ahasenack> s/help/held/
<ahasenack> then I check the failed tests, if any, see if they are really failures in the package, or flaky tests
<ahasenack> I can check the history of that test in any architecture
<ahasenack> if I think it's a flaky test, I check if there is a bug about it. If not, I file one
<ahasenack> if it's an infrastructure problem, I ping someone to click the retry button for me, and present my evidence
<ahasenack> I have such a case with samba, which triggers gvfs2 tests and there is one test in particular that is flaky, I filed a bug about it
<ahasenack> and it's on my list to check in more detail and try to fix
<jbicha> ahasenack: have you ever seen "unsatisfiable Depends" on excuses for a package that does look like it is present in Ubuntu? do you know what that tends to mean?
<ahasenack> I haven't seen that, I would have to look it up
<ahasenack> I suppose it means that a new depends was introduced
<ahasenack> and that is not available in the archive
<ahasenack> if that's the case, it sounds like a silly mistake,
<ahasenack> because we are expected to test-build things before uploading
<sil2100> ahasenack: somewhat related to jbicha's question - let's say you uploaded a package to bionic, you check the excuses page and see that all tests have passed, no visible errors seen but the package is still marked as 'Not considered'
<ahasenack> maybe it could be because the package is in main and has a depends on universe
<ahasenack> so a ppa test build wouldn't catch that
<sil2100> ahasenack: how would you investigate further what's wrong?
<sil2100> Where would you look for clues?
<ahasenack> you say tests have passed
<ahasenack> so a) it built
<ahasenack> b) its own tests passed
<jbicha> ahasenack: "unsatisfiable depends" is often because a main package depends on something in universe, good work on figuring that out as a possible reason :)
<ahasenack> c) tests in dependent packages passed
<ahasenack> sil2100: those 3 assumptions are correct?
<ahasenack> sil2100: there is usually a hint somewhere
<ahasenack> like it could be blocked due to a release (freeze)
<sil2100> ahasenack: yeah, let's say all 3 assumptions are correct and there is no freeze
<ahasenack> when we are in that final week
<ahasenack> then migrations are manual
<ahasenack> ok
<ahasenack> I don't know then, barring it having been flagged for manual migration for some reason
<ahasenack> or I didn't refresh the excuses page
<sil2100> ahasenack: did you have any experience in proposed-migration update_output.txt parsing?
<ahasenack> no, but I remember it being mentioned to me now
<ahasenack> but I haven't had the need to parse it yet
<sil2100> If not, it's a good thing to note and be mindful of when your package is stuck in -proposed and excuses doesn't give any useful info
<sil2100> ;)
<ahasenack> I would certainly ask around if I saw that situation
<jbicha> following up, how do you get a universe package to main?
<ahasenack> through a MIR (Main Inclusion Request)
<jbicha> have you ever done one of those before?
<ahasenack> no, just followed up on the progress of some done by others
<jbicha> ok, that's fine
<ahasenack> I'm aware (without looking) of some of its requirements
<ahasenack> secteam review,
<ahasenack> history of cves
<ahasenack> it needs to have an owner
<ahasenack> dependencies must be in main as well
<jbicha> thanks
<ahasenack> build-depends are a bit more relaxed
<ahasenack> since x I think
<sil2100> Thanks
<sil2100> Any other questions?
<jbicha> not from me :)
<rbasak> No questions from em.
<rbasak> me
<sil2100> rbasak, BenC, micahg: all good?
<BenC> Yep
<sil2100> Let's start the vote then
<sil2100> #vote Grant ahasenack ubuntu-server-dev upload rights
<meetingology> Please vote on: Grant ahasenack ubuntu-server-dev upload rights
<meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (for private voting, private message me with 'vote +1/-1/+0 #channelname)
<rbasak> +0 abstaining as he's on my team and I endorsed him, and we appear to be quorate without me.
<meetingology> +0 abstaining as he's on my team and I endorsed him, and we appear to be quorate without me. received from rbasak
<BenC> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from BenC
<sil2100> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from sil2100
<jbicha> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from jbicha
<sil2100> micahg said he might be in and out of the meeting
<sil2100> So we might need to wait a moment for his vote
<sil2100> (just hope he didn't go 'out' completely!)
<BenC> Do we have enough votes if he doesnât?
<rbasak> Not without mine currently.
<rbasak> Over my time on the DMB I've come up with my own personal rules on how to remain objective.
<rbasak> For people on my team, I've decided to always abstain (rather than +1) if I've endorsed, with the exception that I'll +1 if we don't get quorum.
<rbasak> So if micahg is unable to vote, I'll +1.
<rbasak> If he does vote, I won't vote regardless of which way micahg votes.
<sil2100> Makes sense
<sil2100> I guess it might be nice to have such an official policy for votes, since I know I didn't follow anything like this
<rbasak> I'm fine with not requiring this upon anyone lse.
<rbasak> else
<rbasak> Inevitably there will be other exceptional circumstances when any such policy will need to be broken.
<rbasak> And I trust everyone so am fine with people deciding this kind of thing for themselves.
<sil2100> Let's wait 5 more minutes and then I guess we'd have to assume we don't have quorum without your vote rbasak
<rbasak> OK
 * jbicha plays a few minutes of background holiday music while we wait
<dpb1> ... "girl from impanema" muzak?
<cpaelzer> jbicha: you could play chord names through IRC so we have our share
<jbicha> cpaelzer: that sounds like too much work. Just imagine Bing Crosby's White Christmas or something :)
<rbasak> +1 breaking abstention in order to reach quorum
<meetingology> +1 breaking abstention in order to reach quorum received from rbasak
<rbasak> sil2100: ^
<cyphermox> what?
<cyphermox> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from cyphermox
<cyphermox> sil2100:
<sil2100> \o/
<sil2100> #endvote
<meetingology> Voting ended on: Grant ahasenack ubuntu-server-dev upload rights
<meetingology> Votes for:5 Votes against:0 Abstentions:0
<meetingology> Motion carried
<sil2100> ahasenack: congratulations!
<ahasenack> thanks!
<slashd> congrats ahasenack
<sil2100> #topic AOB
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | DMB Meeting | Current topic: AOB
<sil2100> Any other business?
<sil2100> I guess next meeting next year, so - happy new year o/
<ahasenack> happy new year, happy holidays, enjoy the rest
<sil2100> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Mon Dec 18 15:55:20 2017 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2017/ubuntu-meeting.2017-12-18-15.01.moin.txt
<sil2100> I'll handle adding all the permissions and sending the announcements
<rbasak> Thanks sil2100!
#ubuntu-meeting 2017-12-21
<rbalint> o/
<fginther> \o
<cyphermox> #startmeeting Weekly Ubuntu Foundations team
<meetingology> Meeting started Thu Dec 21 16:03:34 2017 UTC.  The chair is cyphermox. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Weekly Ubuntu Foundations team Meeting | Current topic:
<cyphermox> #topic Lightning rounds
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Weekly Ubuntu Foundations team Meeting | Current topic: Lightning rounds
<cyphermox> echo $(shuf -e bdmurray tdaitx doko rbalint cyphermox rcj Odd_Bloke tribaal fginther)
<cyphermox> doko cyphermox tdaitx tribaal rbalint Odd_Bloke bdmurray rcj fginther
<cyphermox> is doko around?
<cyphermox> I guess not.
<cyphermox> - shim reviews
<cyphermox> - shim testing
<cyphermox> - UEFI migration of cloud instances
<cyphermox> - grub TSC timer fix SRU
<cyphermox> - implementing more netplan routing magic
<cyphermox> (done)
<tdaitx> Tribaal: go ahead, I'm still writing my status
<Tribaal> * Talked about the vagrant user in the vagrant image with people.
<Tribaal> * Iterated on UEFI images for a partner
<Tribaal> * Worked on automating some of the tests for a parter image
<Tribaal> * Started cleaning up the vagrant image creation script so that when/if we want to publish a KVM image as well that'll be easier.
<Tribaal> (done)
<rbalint> (short week)
<rbalint> * many unattended-upgrades fixes: https://github.com/mvo5/unattended-upgrades/pull/83
<rbalint> * livecd-rootfs fixes
<rbalint> (done)
<Odd_Bloke> * HIGHLIGHT: Published images to new eu-west-3 EC2 region
<Odd_Bloke> * HIGHLIGHT: Published images to new cn-northwest-1 EC2 region
<Odd_Bloke> * Worked around xenial cloud image build failures caused by https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/snapd/+bug/1739494
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1739494 in snapd (Ubuntu) "snapd 2.29.4.2 is not installable on powerpc" [Critical,New]
<Odd_Bloke> * Upgraded internal EC2 test tooling from boto to boto3
<Odd_Bloke> * Worked on addressing prompts on upgrade of grub-legacy-ec2 (https://bugs.launchpad.net/cloud-images/+bug/1485685)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1485685 in cloud-images "Users are prompted on upgrade of cloud images" [High,In progress]
<Odd_Bloke> * Looked at cleaning up now-obsolete Azure images, to reduce the number of Ubuntu SKUs presented to users
<Odd_Bloke> (done)
<Odd_Bloke> bdmurray:
<bdmurray> modify retracer to quit if gdb exits with -11 or -9
<bdmurray> tested it, submitted RTs re staging and production
<bdmurray> investigation into purported regression of LP: #1269177
<bdmurray> uploaded bionic fix for u-u bug LP: #1269177
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1269177 in unattended-upgrades (Ubuntu Artful) "Running 'unattended-upgrades --dry-run' reboots the machine" [Undecided,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1269177
<bdmurray> wrote test case for and uploaded SRUs for LP: #1269177
<bdmurray> improved the fix for LP: #1733366, added updated debdiffs
<bdmurray> submitted RT regarding disabling requeue cronjob
<bdmurray> updated daisy to stop accepting core files from 12.04
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1733366 in apport (Ubuntu Artful) "apport crashed with FileNotFoundError in is_container_pid(): [Errno 2] No such file or directory: '/proc/11102/ns/pid'" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1733366
<bdmurray> submitted RT regarding update of daisy in staging ET
<bdmurray> SRU review of command-not-found upload for 17.10
<bdmurray> SRU verification of command-not-found upload for 17.10
<bdmurray> â done
<bdmurray> rcj:
<rcj> - cloud image partner on-site mtg
<rcj> - cloud image code reviews
<rcj> - Don't know if we mentioned that AWS AMIs now have NVMe timeout set and IPv6 addr on the primary interface enabled by default
<rcj> (done)
<Odd_Bloke> fginther:
<fginther> * Finished work on boot related changes for a partner image
<fginther> * Build system vanguarding
<fginther> * Experimented with image testing capabilities for a partner cloud
<fginther> (done)
<tdaitx> * Testing OpenJDK 10 as default-jdk to compare against OpenJDK 9 runs
<tdaitx> * Running autopkgtests with openjdk 9 and 10 as default
<tdaitx> * Gathering data on OpenJDK new timeline and releases (eg. https://time.graphics/line/39488)
<tdaitx> Other:
<tdaitx> * Something busted my graphical session (nvidia related?), as a workaround moved from gdm3 to lightdm
<tdaitx> (done)
<cyphermox> it's just about the Christmas break so how about we skip looking at the incoming bug tasks now?
<cyphermox> I know I won't be there tomorrow, and already busy with netplan
<cyphermox> any objections?
<bdmurray> Nope, but am I the only SRU person here?
<cyphermox> possibly?
<cyphermox> why?
<cyphermox> maybe rbasak is still around?
<bdmurray> I'll just self review bug 1269177
<ubottu> bug 1269177 in unattended-upgrades (Ubuntu Artful) "Running 'unattended-upgrades --dry-run' reboots the machine" [Undecided,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1269177
<cyphermox> ah, I can do a review if you want
<cyphermox> #topic AOB
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Weekly Ubuntu Foundations team Meeting | Current topic: AOB
<cyphermox> any OB?
<cyphermox> bdmurray: reviewed
<cyphermox> AOB: going once
<cyphermox> going twicer.
<cyphermox> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Thu Dec 21 16:18:30 2017 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2017/ubuntu-meeting.2017-12-21-16.03.moin.txt
<cyphermox> Happy holidays everyone, see you next year :)
#ubuntu-meeting 2017-12-22
<ender958> hi
<ender958> hi
#ubuntu-meeting 2018-12-17
<rbasak> o/
<rbasak> Anyone else here?
<rbasak> No meeting I guess then.
<slashd> o/ sorry I'm late
<slashd> didn't see the time focusing on bug ;)
<slashd> cyphermox is on PTO already
#ubuntu-meeting 2018-12-19
<diddledan> o/
<diddledan> I guess we're not having an Ubuntu Membership Board meeting
#ubuntu-meeting 2018-12-20
<rbalint> o/
<bdmurray> I'm not sure its worth having a meeting given the number of people around
<tdaitx> o/
<gaughen> o/
<gaughen> +1 bdmurray
<rbalint> +1
#ubuntu-meeting 2019-12-16
<cyphermox> o/
<rbasak> o/
<rbasak> We have some proxy votes, so with those I believe we're quorate
<rbasak> cyphermox: would you mind chairing please?
 * rbasak isn't feeling great at the moment
<cyphermox> yep just a second I was on the phone with the police dept here :)
<cyphermox> #startmeeting Ubuntu Developer Membership Board
<meetingology> Meeting started Mon Dec 16 15:03:21 2019 UTC.  The chair is cyphermox. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | <wxl> be nice | Ubuntu Developer Membership Board Meeting | Current topic:
<cyphermox> welcome welcome :)
<cyphermox> #topic review of previous action items
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | <wxl> be nice | Ubuntu Developer Membership Board Meeting | Current topic: review of previous action items
<cyphermox> I think we'll call this a carry-over as things aren't complete AFAICT, and many of the board are currently half-there, busy, etc.
<rbasak> +1
<cyphermox> fwiw my tasks for elections are carry-over, but we'll need to start nominations nowish
<cyphermox> probably carry them on under first or second week of January so we have time to have nominees even though there are the holidays
<cyphermox> That also covers the next point being, elections for the 2 expiring members (me and jbicha)
<cyphermox> also, I do not plan on re-running, unless there is no nomination
<cyphermox> that is, I'll gladly give my seat to somebody else if there are volunteers so we can have new people contributing too :)
<cyphermox> #topic Package Set/Per Package Uploader Applications
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | <wxl> be nice | Ubuntu Developer Membership Board Meeting | Current topic: Package Set/Per Package Uploader Applications
<cyphermox> #subtopic Sahid Orentino Ferdjaoui
<cyphermox> sahid, around?
<rbasak> Looks like he postponed until January?
<cyphermox> oh did I misread the date?
<cyphermox> ah yes
<cyphermox> oops
<cyphermox> ok, next topic then
<cyphermox> #topic Ubuntu Core Developer Applications
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | <wxl> be nice | Ubuntu Developer Membership Board Meeting | Current topic: Ubuntu Core Developer Applications
<cyphermox> #subtopic rafaeltinoco
<cyphermox> #link https://wiki.ubuntu.com/rafaeldtinoco/CoreDev
<rafaeldtinoco> o/
<cyphermox> rafaeldtinoco: please introduce yourself
<rafaeldtinoco> I'm a Software Engineer, member of Canonical, in the Server Team since May 2019. I'm also former Sustaining Engineer at SEG team, where I worked for 4 years. In the Sustaining Engineering Team I was also the tech lead for all "userland" related bugs (and UA cases), not only working with bugs in specific areas, but also guiding new engineers in the next steps in their bugs/cases. I have also worked in several kernel
<rafaeldtinoco> related bugs regarding KVM, scheduling, memory management, block devices and SCSI protocol & transport. Nowadays I'm focused in starting good HA related software maintainership, helping out engineers in charge of virtualization AND debugging/fixing bugs for all useful packages for Ubuntu Server.
<rafaeldtinoco> I used to use Slackware in the beginning, but the fact that I had to rely on an external tool to deal with .tgz packages (slackpkg) that had almost no relationship among them took me to Debian really quickly. After Ubuntu arrived, moving to Ubuntu, because of its better Desktop experience initially, was quite automatic for me. Of course we all had the Gentoo experience, but after nights and nights recompiling X11 because
<rafaeldtinoco> of different compilation flags, or just because of new dependencies versions, make us re-think this "let me compile everything approach". That also goes for OpenBSD ports, and the incredible attempt of making NetBSD pkgsrc to behave like a Linux distro packaging system (I really tried to stay with compiled only packages in NetBSD). My experience with RHEL and CentOS was mainly targeted to enterprise customers using it,
<rafaeldtinoco> and not for fun and/or development purposes. Because of the "enterprise" type jobs, I was never much into the contributing-to-public-projects before working @ Canonical (SEG team), something I regret. All the work I can give as a reference starts at that time, but I think it is enough to show how I have already contributed to Ubuntu project and how I can, even more, help the project in the future.
<rafaeldtinoco> </introduction>
<cyphermox> do DMB members have questions for rafaeldtinoco ?
<rbasak> No questions from me. Rafael is a colleague on my team, so I'll do my normal half-recusement and vote only to make up quorum if everyone else is unanimous.
<cyphermox> mmkay
<cyphermox> rafaeldtinoco: so, what are the next steps for pcs, and what of ocfs2-tools?
<rbasak> I should add that I'd intended to endorse Rafael's application but have failed at that.
<rafaeldtinoco> cyphermox: when merging ocfs2-tools last cycle we realized s390x architecture was bad (there was a segfault for one of the userland tools)
<rafaeldtinoco> migration was done by hand at last moments and, during this cycle, in a new merge with debian, I whitelisted all little endian architectures as the upstream project maintainer confirmed that big endian architecture was an issue
<rafaeldtinoco> instructed by xnox, I then opened a RM bug: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ocfs2-tools/+bug/1855720
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1855720 in ocfs2-tools (Ubuntu) "RM ocfs2-tools s390x binary packages from Focal" [Medium,New]
<rafaeldtinoco> asking for the s390x binary package to be removed so migration can continue
<rafaeldtinoco> (as excuses page complains about missing build package for s390 for the last upload)
<rafaeldtinoco> for pcs, we're trying to make it a "default" cluster configuration tool.. but it is very rhel/centos targeted
<rafaeldtinoco> and we've spoken to openstack team also trying to check if that would cause an issue with existing charms (as they rely on crmsh).
<rafaeldtinoco> currently pcs is blocked on migration because of snmp as there was a autopkgtest dependency on a newer version
<rafaeldtinoco> so I asked ahasenack (since he got the merge card for snmp) if I could help him out and I've done the snmp merge
<rafaeldtinoco> currently being discussed here:
<rafaeldtinoco> https://code.launchpad.net/~rafaeldtinoco/ubuntu/+source/net-snmp/+git/net-snmp/+merge/376795
<rafaeldtinoco> I need a few DEP3 changes based on christians review, but it will be done today, and unblock pcs migration also
<rafaeldtinoco> I think thats it
<cyphermox> I fail to understand why a snmp test would need a newer version of net-snmp, but whatever
<cyphermox> I don't have other questions
<cyphermox> DMB members ready to vote?
<cyphermox> #voters sil2100 rbasak slashd micahg cyphermox
<meetingology> Warning: Nick not in channel: sil2100
<meetingology> Current voters: cyphermox micahg rbasak sil2100 slashd
<cyphermox> #voters sil2100 rbasak slashd micahg cyphermox  tsimonq2
<meetingology> Current voters: cyphermox micahg rbasak sil2100 slashd tsimonq2
<cyphermox> #vote rafaeltinoco for Core Developer
<meetingology> Please vote on: rafaeltinoco for Core Developer
<meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (for private voting, private message me with 'vote +1/-1/+0 #channelname)
<rbasak> sil2100 and slashd left proxy votes if they weren't around
<rbasak> I guess they're not here, so I'll relay their votes
<rbasak> slashd voted +1
<rbasak> sil2100 voted +1
<rbasak> If all votes today are unanimously +1, I will also vote +1 to make quorum
<rbasak> That leaves just cyphermox I think?
<cyphermox> +0, I'm not comfortable issuing my vote given that I've again expired and that we're past due for elections
<meetingology> +0, I'm not comfortable issuing my vote given that I've again expired and that we're past due for elections received from cyphermox
<rbasak> Then we aren't quorate I guess :(
<cyphermox> I'm giving a few minutes; I thought micahg had mentioned maybe he could be there again in the future; and maybe tsimonq2 will see this
<cyphermox> ok, no response
<cyphermox> #endvote
<meetingology> Voting ended on: rafaeltinoco for Core Developer
<meetingology> Votes for:0 Votes against:0 Abstentions:1
<meetingology> Deadlock, casting vote may be used
<cyphermox> ^ hey, good job meetingology
<cyphermox> maybe let's take this to email?
<cyphermox> #topic any other business?
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | <wxl> be nice | Ubuntu Developer Membership Board Meeting | Current topic: any other business?
<cyphermox> I'll take it as a no; and I certainly don't have AOB myself (aside from what I mentioned earlier in the meeting)
<cyphermox> re. restaffing the DMB
<cyphermox> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | <wxl> be nice
<meetingology> Meeting ended Mon Dec 16 15:58:00 2019 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2019/ubuntu-meeting.2019-12-16-15.03.moin.txt
#ubuntu-meeting 2019-12-19
<juliank> o/
<rbalint> o/
<bdmurray> #startmeeting Weekly Ubuntu Foundations team
<meetingology> Meeting started Thu Dec 19 16:01:24 2019 UTC.  The chair is bdmurray. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | <wxl> be nice | Weekly Ubuntu Foundations team Meeting | Current topic:
<bdmurray> #topic Lightning rounds
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | <wxl> be nice | Weekly Ubuntu Foundations team Meeting | Current topic: Lightning rounds
<bdmurray> echo $(shuf -e vorlon bdmurray xnox tdaitx doko sil2100 rbalint infinity cyphermox mwhudson juliank waveform)
<bdmurray> waveform vorlon xnox mwhudson infinity cyphermox rbalint sil2100 juliank doko bdmurray tdaitx
<bdmurray> waveform: !
<waveform> * Bionic Pi4 SRUs:
<waveform> * flash-kernel, LP: #1847587
<waveform> * u-boot, LP: #1846329
<waveform> * linux-firmware-raspi2, LP: #1847163
<waveform> * Test packages available in https://launchpad.net/~waveform/+archive/ubuntu/pi4/+packages (now with kernel too); still a couple of tweaks to go
<waveform> * Investigating bluetooth issue on Pi3+ for Core18 (dual HCI adapters appearing; erroneous one for SDIO + apparmor profile issue)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1847587 in flash-kernel (Ubuntu Bionic) "Add entries for Pi 4" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1847587
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1846329 in u-boot (Ubuntu Bionic) "[FFe] 2019.07 to support Pi4 boot" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1846329
<waveform> * Writing tests for pictl configuration tool
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1847163 in linux-firmware-raspi2 (Ubuntu Bionic) "[FFe] Firmware bump for Pi 4 boot support" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1847163
<waveform> (done)
<bdmurray> vorlon is out
<bdmurray> xnox:
<xnox> * uc20 work - builds/installs/reboots/snaps usable
<xnox> * oem work discussion
<xnox> * troubleshooting subiquity failures
<xnox> done
<bdmurray> mwhudson is in bed
<bdmurray> infinity is out
<bdmurray> cyphermox:
<cyphermox> okay then
<cyphermox> handing off stuff
<cyphermox> finishing prep for NM plugin -- netplan PR is ready (in review)
<cyphermox> testing SRU for unicode-data: looks regressy, I'm not sure (we should have more eyes on it)
<cyphermox> (done)
<rbalint>  SRUs (thanks a lot to sil2100 and bdmurray for the many reviews and releases!):
<bdmurray> cyphermox: what type of eyes?
<rbalint>   - landed and verified binutils and gzip LP: #1843479
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1843479 in binutils "gzip in Ubuntu Eoan results in Exec format error on WSL1" [Medium,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1843479
<rbalint>   - verified pam, base-files, ubuntu-release-upgrader, update-notifier, update-motd, wslu, landscape, landscape-client
<rbalint>   - consulted people around to get gce-compute-image-packages marked as verified and released
<rbalint> * systemd
<rbalint>   - landed 244 in Focal
<rbalint>   - 244.1 is already in focal-proposed, set for landing in next days
<rbalint> * uploads via Debian: waylandpp
<rbalint> * poking packages in focal-proposed to migrate
<rbalint> (done)
<bdmurray> sil2100 said he might not make it and he isn't in the channel
<bdmurray> juliank:
<juliank> * Fix llvm-9-tools Breaks/Replaces libclang-common-9-dev (<< 1:9.0.1~+rc2) (debian bug 946473)
<ubottu> Debian bug 946473 in llvm-9-tools "llvm-9-tools: missing Breaks+Replaces: libclang-common-9-dev (<< 1:9.0.1~+rc2)" [Serious,Fixed] http://bugs.debian.org/946473
<juliank> * uploaded ubiquity 20.04.4
<juliank> * fixed my poppler messups
<juliank> * series of python-apt debugging and bug fixes to get u-u to build again
<juliank> * reviewed old bugs / trello cards
<juliank> * reviewed mwhudon's livecd-rootfs merge proposals
<juliank> * played a small bit with zfs
<juliank> * cleaned up my lxd container setup
<juliank> (done)
<bdmurray> doko:
<bdmurray> I'll go ahead and go
<bdmurray> subscribed kernel-packages to l-r-m packages
<bdmurray> emailed ubuntu-server mailing list re subiquity and 20.04
<bdmurray> investigation into LP: #1856862, LP: #1848064
<bdmurray> special SRU reviews
<bdmurray> â done
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1856862 in ubuntu-release-upgrader (Ubuntu) "Upgrade to focal fails with AttributeError: 'NoneType' object has no attribute 'section' in in DistUpgradeCache.py line 942 when default snap packages are not installed" [High,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1856862
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1848064 in apport (Ubuntu Eoan) "/usr/share/apport/whoopsie-upload-all:PermissionError:/usr/share/apport/whoopsie-upload-all@168:collect_info:process_report" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1848064
<bdmurray> tdaitx is out
<doko> oops
<bdmurray> doko your turn again
<doko> python2 no-change uploads
<doko> and still fighting with a consitent gcc-10 build, to start the test rebuilds
<doko> pythonX.Y releases
<doko> (done)
<bdmurray> #topic Release incoming bugs
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | <wxl> be nice | Weekly Ubuntu Foundations team Meeting | Current topic: Release incoming bugs
<bdmurray> #link http://reqorts.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/rls-mgr/rls-ff-incoming-bug-tasks.html
<bdmurray> bug 1856862
<ubottu> bug 1856862 in ubuntu-release-upgrader (Ubuntu) "Upgrade to focal fails with AttributeError: 'NoneType' object has no attribute 'section' in in DistUpgradeCache.py line 942 when default snap packages are not installed" [High,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1856862
<bdmurray> oh, he's fixing it too
<bdmurray> I'll card it and review his MP
<bdmurray> bug 1856996
<ubottu> bug 1856996 in ubuntu-release-upgrader (Ubuntu) "default set of snap packages are reinstalled during release upgrade" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1856996
<bdmurray> I'll also review that and card it
<bdmurray> bug 1856993
<ubottu> bug 1856993 in gcc-9 (Ubuntu) "The focal-proposed gcc-9 version makes pocl build to fail" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1856993
<bdmurray> doko: is that worth taking?
<bdmurray> lets come back to that
<doko> bdmurray: I won't have time to work n that until next year
<bdmurray> doko: that's fine but should we card it?
<bdmurray> #link http://reqorts.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/rls-mgr/rls-ee-incoming-bug-tasks.html
<bdmurray> bug 1856045 is new
<ubottu> bug 1856045 in libcap2 (Ubuntu) "capabilities set with setcap are not honoured" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1856045
<rbalint> bdmurray, this is ugly and can break many things
<rbalint> i think we should take it, to check what is going on
<bdmurray> okay, let's take it and it to the backlog
<bdmurray> although if somebody wants to confirm the reporter's statement that would be good
<bdmurray> #link http://reqorts.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/rls-mgr/rls-bb-incoming-bug-tasks.html
<bdmurray> bug 1856560 was brought to us by some bloke who is rather odd
<ubottu> bug 1856560 in util-linux (Ubuntu) "ds-identify - stuck in uninterruptible sleep state" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1856560
<xnox> i did comment on it
<bdmurray> xnox: should we wait to hear from them before taking it?
<bdmurray> xnox is asking for a test case and we'll wait on that
<bdmurray> Should we look at proposed migration given how much time we have left at work?
<bdmurray> I'd vote for skipping.
<rbalint> +1 for skipping
<bdmurray> alright skipping that
<bdmurray> #topic AOB
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | <wxl> be nice | Weekly Ubuntu Foundations team Meeting | Current topic: AOB
<bdmurray> Anything else?
<juliank> I'm out tomorrow
<doko> me too
<bdmurray> I'm here tomorrow
<bdmurray> Okay, let's wrap it up.
<bdmurray> bye cyphermox!
<rbalint> o/ :-(
<xnox> end of the decade
<bdmurray> ðº
<doko> no, the decade ends in about a year
<bdmurray> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | <wxl> be nice
<meetingology> Meeting ended Thu Dec 19 16:27:59 2019 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2019/ubuntu-meeting.2019-12-19-16.01.moin.txt
