#ubuntu-doc 2005-06-13
<jsgotangco> hello
* jgotangco wonders what's the fuzz about yelp anyway, it works so far although there is more desirable features
<mpt> jsgotangco: I think we've reached the "show us the code" point of the discussion :-)
<jsgotangco> hah
<jsgotangco> mpt, by chance, have you checked out the sytleguide in svn?
<mpt> jsgotangco: no
<jsgotangco> you want me to make an html for you and send it by email?
<mpt> What format is it in currently?
<jsgotangco> docbook
<mpt> "svn up" updates me, right?
<jsgotangco> right
<jsgotangco> on the styleguide folder just execute the script
<jsgotangco> "make html"
<jsgotangco> it will make a styleguide.html in the folder
<jsgotangco> venda, hi
<venda> hi
<venda> irclog is still stuck ;-(
<jsgotangco> yes
<venda> what we speaking about this morning
<jsgotangco> it has been quiet
<venda> Ah ok
<jsgotangco> so far the natives have been peaceful
<jsgotangco> (interesting exchange on the list though)
* jsgotangco has sworn not to go online during weekends with family
<venda> Hmm, I know the problem
<jsgotangco> you do?
<venda> jsgotangco: I am looking for help on merging kudos into faqguide
<venda> jsgotangco: sure, my mrs, calls me an addict
<venda> says I should spend less time online
<venda> So I spent most of the weekend reading Python Programming:-)
<jsgotangco> i've been reading Ruby
<venda>  he he
<venda> jsgotangco: how's the kwickguide
<jsgotangco> i have been busy but i did some small hacks
<venda> OK did you get all the screenshots?
<jsgotangco> not all yet
<venda> it always amazes me how long taking screenshots takes :-)
<jsgotangco> blame my existing contract
<venda> no contracts are good
<venda> screenshots take time
<venda> dunno why, just the way it is
<jsgotangco> my shots arent clean either
<venda> Hmm why?
<jsgotangco> maybe i should take them at a low resolution then clean them up after
<jsgotangco> instead of taking them in a hig-rez
<venda> do you use imagemagic like we described
<jsgotangco> yep
<venda> that will give you the right res
<venda> looking at the screenshots I see you always have the Kubuntu desktop wall-paper in the background. Why?
<venda> imagemagic should capture just the window
<jsgotangco> venda, because the first shots werent made with imagemagic
<venda> Ah ok
<jsgotangco> the new hack should fix it
<venda> OK
<venda> jsgotangco: about messages on list. Is there anyting you want to say/ Do you agreee/disagree with the current strategy we are using?
<venda> I am just interested to know whether or not those ppl committing are happy with the direction or not?
<jsgotangco> venda, i like our current setup and would rather stick to yelp for now to deliver docs for breezy
<jsgotangco> (sorry i think our current setup just needs housekeeping)
<venda> that's fine
<venda> so you prefer to dumb down the xml to support yelp
<jsgotangco> like jdub said before, what we need to do docs for now are already in our system let's just improve on it
<venda> what kind of housekeeping 
<venda> yes our focus is on writing the docs
<jsgotangco> my gripe is with the current state of gnome docs which is catalogued by scrollkeeper
<venda> but that is upstream work
<jsgotangco> if we can fix that, we can contribute that to upstream then
<venda> well then I would suggest that we all move to GNOME docs
<venda> no point working at ubuntu on gnome docs
<venda> much better to move upstream and work there
<venda> but that would mean ubuntu docs suffer
<jsgotangco> heh it doesnt have to be that way
<jsgotangco> i mean what can we do with existing stuff
<jsgotangco> unless ubuntu really goes by itself
<venda> Hmm not sure I undersatnd
<venda> GNOME has a Desktop Manual and app docs
<jsgotangco> i still like the current setup probably because i am learning from it
<venda> So you want yelp to view the xml or the HTML
<jsgotangco> either whatever works
<jsgotangco> (although some xml still isnt being recognized by yelp)?
<venda> OK did you understand why I am saying to direct at HTML
<jsgotangco> ummm..not entirely sure but i would guess when rendering it?
<venda> I am not saying lose Yelp I am saying instead of using XML under yelp we will have yelp view HTML
<venda> this obviates the need to dumb down the xml to support yelp
<venda> enables more features
<jsgotangco> will it make yelp faster?
<venda> Yelp will still load in th etime it takes, but viewing individual pages in faster
<venda> since it will not be transforming and then rendering 
<venda> it will just be rendering
<venda> there is some confusion about the term "web-based" app
<venda> the web-based app I speak of in really an HTML frameset, pages, CSS, jscript
<venda> Yelp will not load the frameset
<venda> and no jscript, unless the new release will support it
<jsgotangco> will the packaging be the same?
<venda> the packaging is the same, except we package HTML
<venda> users can optionaly install the src package
<venda> but the src will not always be supported by yelp
<jsgotangco> will the html pages in yelp still show the pages catalogued by scrollkeeper?
<venda> yelp toc does that
<venda> or are you talking aboutthe main page
<jsgotangco> main
<venda> the main pag eof yelp is not touched by us
<jsgotangco> yes i know that, i mean will it still be the same for now
<venda> yes
<jsgotangco> i wouldn't mind that, but we still have to write in docbook for obvious reasons and just transform it during packaging
<venda> yes, instead of shipping xml that yelp wont support at present, we ship static HTML
<jsgotangco> i like that
<jsgotangco> (we can probably save some space on the disc as well)
<venda> yes it does
<jsgotangco> i think this is a more acceptable solution for now
<venda> I would howver like the About Ubuntu link to open our HTML frameset
<venda> that is what we are saying
<venda> well me
<venda> The About Ubuntu menu option currently opens FF
<venda> in 5.10 instead of just showing About Ubuntu Doc there will be an HTML frameset with TOC access to all our docs
<venda> release notes etc
<jsgotangco> hmm
<jsgotangco> they don't want that?
<venda> I think people do not understand or cannot see the vision
<jsgotangco> i think that is so simple if you ask me
<jsgotangco> it would render the same pages anyway
<jsgotangco> right?
<venda> yes. I need to build a demo
<venda> but now I am sidetracked into merging kudos into faq guide
<jsgotangco> venda, that frameset is just one html page it shouldn't be that much of an issue
<venda> yes
<venda> the toc is also html
<venda> just styles with css and made interactive with jscript
<jsgotangco> i dont see it even go beyond 5kb
<jsgotangco> venda, i dont see any problem with this, it is very much doable and promotes reuse of existing packaged stuff
<venda> yes, because it is a frameset, individual pages can be accessed one at a time
<venda> so yelp will have access to individual pages
<jsgotangco> hmmm what's the fuzz with the thread then
<venda> I think ppl think that we are looking to replace yelp
<venda> but that is not so
<venda> yelp will just be viewing html from us and not transforming xml
<jsgotangco> i say we go that path
<jsgotangco> nobody needs the xml anyway
<venda> but we will enable access to ubuntu doc collection under a html frameset
<jsgotangco> venda, will the collection be in the cd or online?
<venda> well xml is not meant for presentation
<venda> yelp tries to transform the xml to html on the fly
<jsgotangco> yes i noticed that
<venda> but it does not support all docbook
<jsgotangco> (and not very good at it)
<venda> it supports only what gnome docteam need
<venda> the docs will be packaged as normal on the cd
<venda> and will be available online at help.ubuntu.com
<venda> well that is the idea
<venda> need to hear back from Hendrik on this
<jsgotangco> i think that is doable and acceptable to the brass
<venda> for preview during devel we will hopefully have use of docteam.ubuntu.com
<venda> well we will see
<venda> what does this mean for kwick guide
<jsgotangco> hmmm
<venda> it means that you will be able to use interdoc references
<jsgotangco> i dont see any problem considering kde does khtml
<venda> yes, KHelpcenter uses HTML
<venda> but in general in means that we will be able to link between our docs
<venda> we will not be able to link to docs under yelp
<venda> this is the weak link
<venda> the tradeoff is a balance between greater functional support of docbook and support of yelp
<venda> I think it is a worthwhile tradeoff
<venda> if we can use links between our docs
<jsgotangco> hmmm
<venda> and freatures such as glossary and index can be used
<jsgotangco> we can probably worry about that later if yelp really gets ugly for us
<venda> well we hope that jdub and shaunm can improve on yelp
<jsgotangco> maybe you can email this again and explain it further in detail
<venda> jsgotangco: but staying true to docbook, I think that oneday, help will be able to support all docbook xml
<venda> well I am mostly interested in ppl who are comtting
<venda> at present that is you, mdke and I
<jsgotangco> well you forgot jeffsh
<venda> oops and jeffsh and jjesse
<jsgotangco> (what can 4 people do at the moment)
<jsgotangco> with 1M users
<jsgotangco> (1M is conservative based on the no of warty cds shipped)
<venda> allot if they focus on writing and do not get derailed by all these discussions
<venda> look at yourself how well you have done with kwickguide
<jsgotangco> heh its not much at the moment, but i agree it has come a long way
<venda> What I have found is that we get more done if we focus on writing the docs and just use what docbook has given us instead of trying to figure out work arounds to helpviewer limitations and desktop incompatabilities
<venda> but I want the commiters to understand the HTML strategy
<venda> At present this is the only way I see of negating the problems
<venda> I hope yelp will oneday support full docbook
<venda> I know that Shaunm wants this, but without help from other developers he cannot do it all alone
<venda> hopefully now that jdub is getting involved and there is some traction at freedesktop.org we will see greater support for docbook as a standard
<jsgotangco> (shouldn't it be in the first place)
<venda> in a perfect world
<venda> well gotta go get dressed
<jsgotangco> ok i gotta grab a sandwhich
<venda> coffee finished day must start
<venda> c ya
<froud> life gets interesting when you get .Net on Linux http://www.codeproject.com/showcase/Mainsoft_grasshopper.asp
<jsgotangco> java?
* froud loves java
<jsgotangco> blasphemy!
<froud> I take an open approach to technologies, if it works I use it.
<froud> free from religios questions I can do more
<jsgotangco> i condemn thee to be hang, drawn, and quartered
<froud> hold on I have not got my black leathers on
* jsgotangco wonders what Burgundavia has been up to lately
* froud also notices he is awfully quiet ;-)
<mdke> there is so much crap on the wiki
<mdke> sometimes I'm tempted just to delete hundreds of pages
<jsgotangco> ahhh my favorite barrister is now awake
<mdke> morning m'lud
<jsgotangco> (the only barrister i know of anyway)
<mdke> hey
<mdke> i preferred "my favorite"
<jsgotangco> how long will you be one anyway
<mdke> for ever!
<jsgotangco> ackk
<jsgotangco> is a barrister the same as a solicitor
<mdke> not quite
<mdke> a barrister speaks in court
<mdke> a solicitor does the stuff behind the scenes, like taking the client out to dinner etc
<jsgotangco> hmm
<jsgotangco> i like the solicitor then
<mdke> ;)
* froud likes the barrister job
<jsgotangco> especially if the client is a young widow of an 90-year old oil baron
<froud> mmmmmm
* mdke nods
<mdke> jsgotangco, i told you to stop going out to dinner with young ladies
<mdke> have you guys seen the page http://wiki.ubuntu.com/EverydayUsage
<mdke> it sucks SO bad
<froud> mdke: watch what you say soon he will focus on little boys :-(
<froud> but there are nice ideas there for User Guide
<froud> like I never thought of having a section on compiling
<mdke> nor did i
<froud> I wonder if that is a good idea or not
<mdke> why in gods name is he telling people to compile mplayer
<froud> dunno
<mdke> no not for beginners imo
<froud> mplyer is in the repos
<mdke> quite
<froud> guess if you want specific codecs
<mdke> still don't think that is necessary
<mdke> also telling users to compile kde?
<mdke> crazy shit
<froud> sometimes I build kde from CVS
<froud> but that is for development
<froud> not averageuser
<mdke> quite
<jsgotangco> let's just nuke the wiki one time
<froud> not before we have ported the stuff we need :-)
<mdke> yes
<mdke> that's why I have left that page
* froud is reminded that we still need a list
<mdke> just in case it has something that would be useful
<jsgotangco> i dont even use our wiki to search for something useful
<mdke> Be RiGhT bAcK
* #ubuntu-doc  [freenode-info]  help freenode weed out clonebots, please register your IRC nick and auto-identify: http://freenode.net/faq.shtml#nicksetup
<froud> Interesting concept and perhaps a tool
<froud> would be nice to see how this works.
<froud> BTW. The LFS book is great
<froud> Nice use of docbook 4.4
<froud> nice use of xinclude and entities
<froud> and very neat custom layers
<jsgotangco> hmm
<froud> impressive
<jsgotangco> ill check it out later
<jsgotangco> i gotta go
<froud> ok
<Burgundavia> morning all
<Burgundavia> I have had a busy weekend, and have not been at the computer much
<jjesse> morning burgundavia
<jjesse> or afternoon as it is here :)
<venda> elo
<Burgundavia> venda, here
<venda> Burgundavia: in a minute
<venda> Burgundavia: catch you in the morning
<Burgundavia> ok
<mdke> aha
<mdke> bravo enrico
#ubuntu-doc 2005-06-14
<jsgotangco> morning
<jsgotangco> people im cleaning up global.ent and standardizing on ubuntu.com instead of ubuntulinux.org whenever possible
<jsgotangco> jiyuu0, do you have a gpg key?
<jsgotangco> brb
<jsgotangco> venda, hi
<jsgotangco> oh well
<jsgotangco> mdke, ping?
<jsgotangco> mdke, we have a BIG problem
<jsgotangco> W$%^$%@#
<mdke> hi
<mdke> jsgotangco, pong
<mdke> yes we do
<jsgotangco> we're screwed
<jsgotangco> mdke, what you reckon we do for starters
<mdke> jsgotangco, have you read the hitchhikers guide to the galaxy
<mdke> don't panic
<jsgotangco> im not
<mdke> there are a few things we can do
<jsgotangco> but we don't have plan b at the moment
<mdke> we can talk to sabdfl or silbs maybe
<mdke> and maybe I will ring froud later
<jsgotangco> we can start on the cc meeting later
<mdke> you mean in the meeting?
<jsgotangco> well
<jsgotangco> we we can't raise this stuff
<jsgotangco> we have to have a meeting on our own
<jsgotangco> we need jeffsh as well
<jsgotangco> hmm
<mdke> give it a bit of time
<Burgundavia> jsgotangco, what is the big issue?
<mdke> we can organise a meeting 
<mdke> Burgundavia, froud has quit again
<Burgundavia> ah, I seee
<jsgotangco> i think he's quitting for good
<mdke> dunno
<mdke> jsgotangco, these things can happen i guess
<jsgotangco> it happens
<jsgotangco> but we don't have plan B at the moment
<mdke> no
<mdke> and until canonical takes and interest in the docteam it will probably keep happening
<Burgundavia> please read the last post on this page
<Burgundavia> http://www.wesnoth.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3734&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=15&sid=c52f2a1f8c4c40598f4557f5341e5a37
<Burgundavia> it is quite relevant right now
<mdke> ok
<jsgotangco> hold on
<mdke> Burgundavia, sure that's right
<mdke> but it wasn't a lack of enthusiasm for the project in this case
<jsgotangco> people come and go that's for sure
<jsgotangco> right
<jsgotangco> we can still continue with our roadmap though
<jsgotangco> and deliver what we've been doing for now
<mdke> yeah
<mdke> we may have to refocus a little
<jsgotangco> we should organise a meeting
<jsgotangco> i'll pull out the agenda as well as clean up the roadmap
<jsgotangco> now more than ever, we'll need more committers
<mdke> i think we should discuss this with jdub
<jsgotangco> we'll invite jdub as well
<mdke> ok
<Burgundavia> jsgotangco, if you do the grunt work on organizing, I am willing to assist you, but I cannot take the lead on this
<jsgotangco> Burgundavia, i don't mind, i'll organise stuff at the moment, we need to focus on the current roadmap
<mdke> thing about trying to corner mark after the meeting tonight, if he turns up, is that it will be about midnight
<Burgundavia> I will be asleep, sorry
<mdke> Burgundavia, how did the job hunting go btw?
<jsgotangco> no problem, we'll email anyway, i want to resolve this without going through those channels if possible
<Burgundavia> mdke, not done yet, that is why I haven't been very active recently
<mdke> Burgundavia, well good luck
<mdke> keep at it
<mdke> jsgotangco, which channels?
<jsgotangco> sabdfl, silbs
<mdke> well to be honest i think that the question of the docteam is worth raising with them regardless of this issue
<mdke> i have been thinking that for a while
<mdke> especially now enrico is not employed anymore
<jsgotangco> yes it needs consideration
<jsgotangco> i hope enrico goes online now
<mdke> if he comes on later i'll talk to him
<jsgotangco> yes please
<mdke> i'll mail henrik too to see what he thinks
<mdke> <-- shower :p
<jsgotangco> i wouldn't worry too much on the wiki for now
<Burgundavia> night all
<mpt> jsgotangco: What is the current roadmap?
<Burgundavia> need to sleep
<jsgotangco> http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/DocteamProjects is just a table of targets
<jsgotangco> there is no roadmap to speak of at the moment
<mdke> one thing we will need to figure out is what to do with the documents which are profiled for ubuntu/kubuntu and Q and A and such
<mpt> yeah
<jsgotangco> its way over my head at the moment, but we'll have to do with yelp for now to reach targets
<mdke> sure but the question is, yelp with xml or yelp with html
<jsgotangco> we still code in docbook anyway its a matter of packaging
<mdke> jsgotangco, at least 2 of the docs are profiled for kubuntu/ubuntu, yelp does not support this if we package in xml
<mdke> so either we need to remove the profiling
<mdke> or package in html
<mdke> the same applies to Q and A i think
<jsgotangco> qanda sets are a problem
<mdke> as i understand it they are both a problem
<jsgotangco> but we'll have to do with what yelp can do for now
<mdke> jsgotangco, as I say, either we package in html or we cut out the profiling and qanda
<mdke> we can discuss it in a meeting maybe
<mpt> Is HTML the only way to get a frameset-less set of documents in yelp?
<mdke> i don't know
<mdke> who can change the topic in here?
<jsgotangco> sivang
<mdke> anyone else?
<jsgotangco> NO IDEA
<mdke> hmm
<mdke> caps?
<jsgotangco> its a statement
<jsgotangco> heh
<jsgotangco> (not directed to you)
<mdke> strange that its closed topic
<jsgotangco> i have to go
<jsgotangco> ill just draft an email later
<mdke> the whole wiki is in moin now
<mdke> woohoo
<Kinnison> cor
* mdke nurses his aching wrist
<jdub> hey dudes
<mdke> hi jdub 
<mdke> whats up
<jdub> hrm. me. ;)
<mdke> good morning then
<mdke> are you not in oz?
<jdub> yeah, in .au
<mdke> you heard sean has quit the team i guess?
<mdke> jdub, btw did you publish those WorldWide scripts?
<jdub> i sent them to a couple of people who asked for them, but they're not exactly publishable
<jdub> i'm kinda waiting to see where the kde ones turn up, because they're a heck of a lot better
<jdub> only they use the old version of xplanet
<mdke> ok
<mdke> would you send them to me?
<mdke> jdub ^
<jdub> yeah
<mdke> jdub, thanks its matthew.east@breathe.com
<jdub> cool
<jdub> ah, so, i'm just going to send this *really* raw :)
<jdub> straight off the disk
<mdke> ok
<mdke> i'll see if I can figure it out
<jdub> it's a shell script and a bunch of accompanying crack
<jdub> it uses current xplanet in ubuntu
<mdke> hoary?
<jdub> yah
<jdub> yeah
<mdke> ok
<jdub> hrm
<jdub> actuall
<mdke> ooh yeah the kde one is nice
* mpt will use xplanet for his desktop when he has time to learn the command-line options or when someone makes a nice GUI for it, whichever comes first, probably the latter
<jdub> yeah, the new one is pretty bong
<jdub> mdke: http://people.ubuntu.com/~jdub/random/UbuntuWorldWide.tar.gz
<mdke> jdub, thanks
<mdke> jdub, so do you have any thoughts on the current docteam situation?
<jdub> mdke: yeah, though i can't see that froud has quit publically
<mdke> no
<jdub> mdke: i've been in the channel and watching the mailing list for a few weeks, because i want to help get the communication and integration between ubuntu-doc and ubuntu-devel rolling in a useful way
<mdke> we have been happy to see you around jdub 
<mdke> but in some ways your habit of briefly dismissing our methodology has caused a bit of confusion
<jdub> i mentioned to corey and jerome that i'm sketching out some ways to help people get involved with particular goals for breezy, so we can get some really satisfying stuff done
<mdke> that would probably be helpful
<jdub> yeah, i wasn't very clear on the list
<mdke> jdub, you have been clear
<mdke> just a little terse
<mdke> i know the team would really appreciate being listened to
<mdke> what we need is a structured methodology that all can agree with and we can stick to
<jdub> i think in most cases, that comes down to sean
<jdub> and i'm not sure sean has set a productive agenda
<mdke> jdub, the thing is, no one else has set one at all
<jdub> yeah
<jdub> so sean's is accepted by default - i think that's part of the problem
<mdke> jdub, i can understand your point of view
<jdub> (i don't tend to think i'm disagreeing with the whole team when i disagree with sean)
<mdke> jdub, however, in a team like this, where only a few people are putting work in, it is disruptive to have someone come in and say, in a line or two, screw this
<mdke> jdub, yes I know
<jdub> yeah, i'm disappointed with this thread
<mdke> i know that sean has a tendency to just go ahead with things
<mdke> but he has been putting in a lot of work
<jdub> i don't want to sound ungrateful for his work, but his direction has not really been related to that of the rest of the project
<jdub> which draws the whole team further away
<mdke> jdub, i disagree to some extent
<jdub> and makes it that much harder for everyone else to value the work being done
<jdub> which sucks, because that's demotivating
<mvirkkil> mdke: Nice work with the moin conversion :)
<mdke> :)
<mdke> wiki is moving next week
<mpt> jdub: http://udu.wiki.ubuntu.com/HelpfulHelp
<mpt> jdub: I'll try to get it finished once I've had some sleep
<mpt> (it's probably about 40% done a.t.m.)
<mvirkkil> mdke: To moin?
<mvirkkil> mdke: What version?
<mvirkkil> mdke: As the one in breezy is horrbily outdated.
<mvirkkil> mdke: I really hope it'll be the 1.3 branch.
<jdub> mpt: 'rename yelp' -> it's never referred to as yelp in the ui :)
<jdub> apart from that, it's rocking
<mpt> jdub: All abstractions leak. It's referred to as yelp in (1) the About box, (2) error messages, (3) my "System" menu ever since I chose it from the "Open With..." menu for a DocBook file
<jdub> mpt: feasibility of print -> actually 200 times simpler than search, will be done through bounty if i get a response about it
<jdub> mpt: not sure any of those are horrendously important
<mpt> No, you're right, they're not
<jdub> error messages would be the most important of the three
<jdub> (3) is crack ;)
<mpt> If by "crack" you mean "a bug", sure
<jdub> (it's crack that it happens at all, like amazingly surprisingly weird)
<mpt> Normally I wouldn't mind the panel menus not being editable
<mpt> but since they aren't, I've got no idea how to return it to its proper name :-P
<mpt> (or restore its icon)
<jdub> what do you have under .gnome/apps/ ?
<mpt> I have a .gnome directory, but not a .gnome/apps/ directory
<jdub> ahr
<jdub> mucho bong!
<mpt> As for error messages, here's a simple example: (1) Open yelp to the default Hoary help page. (2) Choose "File" > "About this Document". (3) There is no step 3.
<mpt> Maybe I've been pushing Hoary too hard, and it's starting to fall apart
<mpt> 2/3 of the gnome-games don't have icons any more
<mpt> Or maybe I just have the evil touch :-)
<mdke> mvirkkil, yes 1.3
<SquishyWaffle> howdy
<SquishyWaffle> I don't know who to direct this to but I had some feedback that I was hoping some of the doc team leaders could peek at. http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?p=203332#post203332
<SquishyWaffle> In regards to wiki ergonomics and making things easier to get around in.
<SquishyWaffle> or maybe this is the wrong place to ask since I hear you guys mostly do the stuff via SVN :)
<mdke> hi SquishyWaffle 
<mdke> i'll check it out
<SquishyWaffle> hello
<mdke> i'll reply on that thread too
<mdke> thanks for that
<mdke> i see henrik is involved in that thread
<SquishyWaffle> ok, I'm not trying to complain, I just really love the idea of good documentation and I want to see the work everyone is investing go to good use
<mdke> sure i agree
<mdke> ah is that your post?
<mdke> SquishyWaffle, lets talk about it now then if you like
<SquishyWaffle> sure
<SquishyWaffle> I was the last one, GTaylor
<mdke> ok
<mdke> i'm matt
<SquishyWaffle> ok
<mdke> now
<mdke> 1. speed
<mdke> the speed will be greatly increased after the transition to the new enging
<mdke> *engine
<SquishyWaffle> that's definitely good news
<mdke> ok
<mdke> 2. mediawiki
<mdke> out of the question i'm afraid
<SquishyWaffle> ok, not a big deal
<mdke> the ubuntu guys considered it and rejected it
<mdke> sadly
<mdke> 3. images
<mdke> just link them by filename and they will appear
<mdke> e.g. http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/PicDoc.png
<SquishyWaffle> is there a way to easily upload/resize on-page?
<mdke> upload yeah
<mdke> lemme fine the exact button
<mdke> *find
<mdke> ok "add image"
<mdke> you can't resize on page at the moment, maybe with the new engine it will be possible
<SquishyWaffle> ok
<mdke> erm
<mdke> 4. html
<mdke> no
<mdke> there is only MoinMoin markup
<mdke> 5. categories
<mdke> supported by the new engine
<mdke> :)
<mdke> hmm what else
<mdke> i'm not sure i agree that gentoo are one of our big contenders... but still they do have much better docs than us
<SquishyWaffle> well that covers what I had wondered and is re-assuring
<SquishyWaffle> big contenders in docs :)
<mdke> yeah that would be something to aim for
<SquishyWaffle> but they will quickly be outstripped as the Wiki grows
<mdke> well the official gentoo docs are better too
<SquishyWaffle> that brings up another point, what's this I'm hearing about SVN-based docs when we have the Wiki?
<mdke> our official docs are developed in an svn repository in xml docbook format
<SquishyWaffle> what goes in those versus the wiki?
<mdke> couple of points here
<mdke> first, we will use parts of the wiki, and other doc sources when writing those documents
<mdke> secondly, we are working on a means to convert wiki documents, where they are very good, to xml docbook and publish them
<SquishyWaffle> publish them as in paperback?
<mdke> no i mean in the distribution and on the website
<SquishyWaffle> But I'm curious as to why we're doing that when I'd imagine we should be able to do it on the Wiki
<mdke> *grins*
<mdke> see gentoo
<mdke> the wiki is essentially a brainstorming area
<SquishyWaffle> yeah, but see Wikipedia
<mdke> where anyone can edit and contribute
<mdke> we don't have that sort of quality of editors
<SquishyWaffle> heh, shucks
<mdke> quality/quantity ;)
<SquishyWaffle> ok, so your project is basically a refining of what's on the wiki?
<mdke> SquishyWaffle, there are some books being worked on as well
<mdke> guides
<SquishyWaffle> that's good to hear too, I wish this stuff was more publicized
<mdke> yeah we need to work on that
<mdke> our methodology is a little bit sketchy at the moment
<SquishyWaffle> I'd love to see them give more people access to the announcement forums so you guys can keep everyone hyped up :)
<mdke> so when it is stabilised we will publish it better
<mdke> hmm
<mdke> i know henrik and others are very keen on developing the forums/docteam relationship
<mdke> me too
<mdke> when the new wiki is out we can port some guides forum->wiki
<SquishyWaffle> well is there anywhere I can see what you guys are working on right now?
<mdke> https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/DocumentationTeam
<mdke> its a start
<mdke> although not necessarily complete
<SquishyWaffle> So I take it this is your main project right now?: http://people.ubuntu.com/~mako/docteam/quickguide/
<SquishyWaffle> looks like there are some good things in the works
<mdke> quickguide is done basically, we've got a kde one now
<mdke> i'm trying to get behind the userguide
<mdke> its quite raw atm
<jjesse> i'm working on the install guide
<jjesse> trying to put the network install guide from the wiki into the install guide
<mdke> jjesse, awesome
<SquishyWaffle> I'd really like to help in some way. I'm a Kubuntu user/packager and would love to assist
<jjesse> thanks mdke
<mdke> SquishyWaffle, ok that would be great
<mdke> SquishyWaffle, you can checkout our repository and have a poke around
<SquishyWaffle> Where is help needed the most?
<mdke> difficult to say right now
<mdke> we will be having a meeting soon and hopefully we can establish our targets
<mdke> would be great if you join
<SquishyWaffle> when is the meeting?
<mdke> not set yet
<SquishyWaffle> shoot, the KDE docs haven't even been started :) That's a pretty ripe area
<mdke> SquishyWaffle, we have a kde quickguide, but nothing else i believe
<SquishyWaffle> hrm, no active link to it on https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/DocteamProjects
<mdke> SquishyWaffle, if you join the mailing list, you can make sure you don't miss the meeting
<SquishyWaffle> ok, will do
<mdke> SquishyWaffle, we can help you get our repository to have a look
<mdke> SquishyWaffle, the previews on that projects page are not maintained i'm afraid, best way is to see the repository
<mdke> https://docteam.ubuntu.com/repos/trunk/kde/kquickguide/C/kquickguide.xml
<SquishyWaffle> ok
<SquishyWaffle> and are you guys editing this by hand or using a GUI tool of some sort?
<mdke> gedit for me
<mdke> it supports syntax highlighting
<SquishyWaffle> ok, guess I have a mark-up language to learn :)
<mdke> :)
<mdke> SquishyWaffle, i haven't really learnt it yet
<mdke> i just copy whats already there
<mdke> its like html basically
<SquishyWaffle> yeah
<mdke> SquishyWaffle, there may also be a easy reference help project being worked on soon
<mdke> best to wait for the meeting and see how the targets go
<SquishyWaffle> ok, I can start playing with what's in the repository. Are there guides on the wiki to compiling things locally for testing?
<mdke> you can just open the document
<mdke> "yelp path/to/xml"
<SquishyWaffle> yelp :)
<mdke> or whatever kde uses
<SquishyWaffle> sounds violent
<mdke> kdehelpcenter or something
<jjesse> kdehelpcenter
<jjesse> though if i recall from froud kdehelpcenter doesn't do the convert on the fly or something like that
<mdke> it should be able to read xml?
<SquishyWaffle> convert on the fly?
<jjesse> trying to remember a conversatation w/ froud about converting to html or something like that?
<mdke> shouldn't be necessary
<mdke> i think it reads the xml
<mdke> yelp certainly does
<SquishyWaffle> will these documents we're writing be in the KDE/Gnome help systems too?
<mdke> yelp is the gnome help system
<mdke> so yeah that's the idea
<SquishyWaffle> very good
<mdke> but they don't get pushed upstream cos they are docs for ubuntu
<SquishyWaffle> yeah, I'm just hoping they'll be easy to find and open up within Gnome/KDE
<mdke> oh right
<mdke> yeah they are in the main menu
<mdke> under System
<mdke> -> Help
<mdke> again, dunno about kde
<mdke> btw I replied on that thread with the same stuff I told ya here
<SquishyWaffle> in KDE there are a lot of branches from the main page, I'm hoping that'll be cleaned up a little
<SquishyWaffle> ok good
<jjesse> its khelpcenter
<jjesse> for kde
<SquishyWaffle> hopped on the mailing list
<mdke> cool
<mdke> bear with us for a bit because today we lost our main contributor, so things will need reorganising, hence the meeting
<SquishyWaffle> ouch, ok
<jjesse> we lost our main contributer?
<jjesse> did i miss an email about that or somethng?
<mdke> jjesse, no email as yet
<mdke> froud has decided to quit
<jjesse> mdke oh thats too bad
<jjesse> i really got along w/ him
<mdke> yeah
<mdke> he was a hard worker for the cause :)
<mdke> but these things will happen and we will carry on
<jjesse> is there an email going to come out?
<mdke> i hope so
<mdke> he said that he has unsubscribed, but I hope that he will email
<jjesse> that really stinks i wonder why he left
<SquishyWaffle> life gets busy/hard at times :(
* mdke nods
<mdke> the forum has such a busy interface
<mdke> where is the thing to subscribe to the thread?
<mdke> ah its in thread tools
<SquishyWaffle> woohoo, 100 posts
<mdke> *grins*
<mdke> 7!
<mdke> oh no
<mdke> 6!
<SquishyWaffle> on a roll
<SquishyWaffle> anyone find it ironic that those messenger buttons under avatars don't work under Linux? :)
<SquishyWaffle> (unless you do some manual labor)
<mdke> which?
<SquishyWaffle> none of them work for me
<mdke> of what?
<SquishyWaffle> oh, for example go into a post and look under the avatars at the messenger icons
<SquishyWaffle> it's under the Posts: field
<SquishyWaffle> it'll open up another dialog box and if you click Send a message it doesn't do anything or gives you a warning about opening an external program depending on your browser
<mdke> the dialogue just closed
<mdke> very fast
<mdke> as if it crashed
<SquishyWaffle> yuck
<SquishyWaffle> that's going to need some attention, I'll post in the site forum later
<mdke> tell them their interface is too busy as well
<mdke> :p
<SquishyWaffle> I'm used to it because I'm a forum crawler :)
<SquishyWaffle> we have a vBulletin site that a lot of people on campus frequent
<jjesse> well guys work is over have a great day :)
<SquishyWaffle> Dinner time )
<mdke> k
#ubuntu-doc 2005-06-15
<mdke> how are things jsgotangco 
<mdke> a bit late out of bed eh
<jsgotangco> i just woke up
<jsgotangco> hehe
<jsgotangco> did you get to talk to enrico?
<mdke> nope
<mdke> but i talked to jeff for a while
<mdke> (waugh)
<SquishyWaffle> do you have to be a member to get an ubuntu.com email address? :0
<jsgotangco> yes, but even members still dont have it yet (waiting)
<jsgotangco> mdke: how did it go
<mdke> quite well
<mdke> jsgotangco, btw meet SquishyWaffle he wants to join the team :)
<SquishyWaffle> greetings
<jsgotangco> hello SquishyWaffle, i am Jerome
<mdke> SquishyWaffle, meet jerome, he works on kde docs so maybe you can work together
<SquishyWaffle> ah, great. Yes, I'm very interested in working on the KDE docs
<jsgotangco> that's great
<jsgotangco> i'll need someone to fill the void
<jsgotangco> because KDE docs will be 1.0 by Breezy
<SquishyWaffle> Well I'm eager to help with it :)
<jsgotangco> have you checked out the repositories or at least know docbook
<SquishyWaffle> Our LUG pushes Ubuntu to most of the members so this helps on multiple levels
<SquishyWaffle> I've looked at them but I haven't played just yet. Docbook just looks like a typical markup language, should be pretty straightforward.
<jsgotangco> yes
<jsgotangco> we even have a template in svn just in case
<SquishyWaffle> I hear there's supposed to be some meetings to determine priorities but is there any particular area we're focusing on in the KDE docs?
<jsgotangco> we plan to hold a meeting anytime this weekend or early next week
<jsgotangco> for KDE we only have 2 targets for now
<jsgotangco> the quickguide and the user guide
<SquishyWaffle> ok
<jsgotangco> we're incredibly short of manpower and active committers
<SquishyWaffle> well I'm around when you guys are ready :)
<SquishyWaffle> I can justify doing some of it at work since it benefits our researchers
<mdke> awesome
<SquishyWaffle> I might be able to get some others involved from my LUG since we already do a lot of documentation at http://learn.clemsonlinux.org
<SquishyWaffle> I can put the word out to the rest of the group at our first fall meeting and maybe we'll get a group of people working on this on-campus eventually. Certaintly helps to be able to meet in person about things to talk
<mdke> that would be amazing too
<mdke> hopefully by then we'll have a good methodology going
<SquishyWaffle> yeah, I'm curious to see how it'll all pan out
<mdke> ok well jerome will organise the meeting over the new week or so
<SquishyWaffle> This upcoming year we're going to present incoming students who buy their laptops from the campus with the option of Windows XP, Dual Booting Windows/Ubuntu, or Ubuntu only, really looking forward to it :
<mdke> AMAZING
<mdke> got the cds?
<SquishyWaffle> We're thrilled, this campus hasn't been very accepting of Linux but recently we've made lots of progress
<SquishyWaffle> we sent out for some Hoary ones ages ago but they never arrived, had lots of Warty back when that was the stable branch
<mdke> yeah they ship to the people who didn't order warty first
<jsgotangco> SquishyWaffle: where from?
<mdke> email em and ask for a big order, they can organise it
<SquishyWaffle> jsgotangco: Clemson, South Carolina
<mdke> see the shipit FAQ
<SquishyWaffle> Well the need for CDs isn't huge since we net install Ubuntu at installfests :)
<mdke> ok
<mdke> but its cool to give em out
<SquishyWaffle> Oh yeah, we hand out tons of burnt ones
<SquishyWaffle> Went through the Warty ones in a few days and we had like 50 :)
<SquishyWaffle> converted a whole lot of Fedora/Gentoo'ers
<mdke> great stuff
<SquishyWaffle> Of particular interest I really think the wireless setup stuff needs great attention for a wide variety of situations
<mdke> yeah wifi support is not great
<SquishyWaffle> Since all of our laptops are wireless equipped, we've had to deal with a lot of different chipsets and hardware. It's usually straightforward but we've had problems with some of the Compaqs
<mdke> a lot of laptop testing will go on before breezy
<SquishyWaffle> This is one of the most wireless campuses on the east cost, so it's very important :)
<SquishyWaffle> And that's good to hear, I need to get our guys suggesting stuff. That is THE biggest stumbling block right now for us as a LUG since everyone uses laptops (it's required by the school).
<mdke> whoa
<mdke> required?
<mdke> do they give em out for free?
<SquishyWaffle> yes, it's a big engineering/science school, everything is electronic (admissions, tuition payment, homework, etc.). No, buy on your own :(
<SquishyWaffle> But it's good to have. You can get wireless everywhere and it's wonderful to be able to take notes electronically
<SquishyWaffle> I had a wiki going for my notes at one time, was awesome to have a searchable scratchpad.
<mdke> very cool
<jsgotangco> well our svn has been officially silent for the last 12 hours
* SquishyWaffle pings
<mdke> quick upload something!
<mdke> jsgotangco, i have spent my time on the wiki today
<mdke> the wiki is now MOIN ONLY!
<jsgotangco> gyah
<jsgotangco> i still prefer media wiki
<jsgotangco> although moin has great table tags
<SquishyWaffle> yeah, I love Mediawiki
<jsgotangco> i actually run it in my laptop
<jsgotangco> for personal use
<jsgotangco> hehe
<SquishyWaffle> me too, great for note taking
<SquishyWaffle> we're using it to write a book at work, fit that application wonderfully
<mdke> i must try that
<SquishyWaffle> it's awesome, helps with open-note tests :)
<jsgotangco> moin moin is great, although if your hardware is kinda old, its a bit slow
<mdke> i'm in the stone age with abiword
<SquishyWaffle> moinmoin is perhaps the only words weirder than wiki
<mdke> *grins*
<jsgotangco> dude, abiword rules, its way better than writer
<mdke> hmm
<mdke> well...
<jsgotangco> it loads a hell lot faster
<mdke> true
<SquishyWaffle> are ubuntu meetings always this rowdy?
<mdke> the CC ones normally are
<mdke> the technical ones aren't
<jsgotangco> yeah
<SquishyWaffle> I'm not even going to bother trying for membership until I have enough amassed to make it an obvious decision :)
<SquishyWaffle> Just by watching this
<mdke> *grins*
<mdke> its a strange business
<jsgotangco> SquishyWaffle: just talk the talk and you'll get recognized
<jsgotangco> even if you do it on the sidelines
<mdke> hey once you're in a team its straightforward
<jsgotangco> yeah
<jsgotangco> mdke: we currently have 3 active svn accounts
<SquishyWaffle> so as a non-member, will I be submitting updates to one of you guys once I start working?
<jsgotangco> we're freaking on the way the gates of hell
<mdke> SquishyWaffle, yeah to the mailing list
<mdke> jsgotangco, i told you, don't panic
<mdke> it'll be fine
<jsgotangco> SquishyWaffle: yes, if you'd like to mess up with docbook, you'll just make a patch and send it to the list
<mdke> SquishyWaffle, after a short time, you'll get commit access too
<SquishyWaffle> shoot, haven't played with patch in ages :)
<mdke> SquishyWaffle, instructions on the wiki
<jsgotangco> mdke: like to panic
* SquishyWaffle was going to ask :)
<jsgotangco> I
<mdke> SquishyWaffle, we can help too
<mdke> jsgotangco, i will help chill you out
<mdke> i'm all about chilling
<jsgotangco> send me to cape town
<jsgotangco> SquishyWaffle: http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/DocteamStepByStepRepository
<mdke> that would help you chill?
<jsgotangco> SquishyWaffle: just ignore the make qg part
<jsgotangco> mdke: a trip to paradise would be good
<mdke> try the pacific ocean
<mdke> oh hang on a sec...
<jsgotangco> dude
<mdke> you live there!
<jsgotangco> i live around the pacific ocean
<SquishyWaffle> hrm, how are images handled?
* mdke grumbles
<mdke> SquishyWaffle, in docbook?
<jsgotangco> SquishyWaffle: we use PNG
<SquishyWaffle> I'm very visual so I like to do lots of screenshots for applications. I'm talking in terms of getting them to you
<jsgotangco> hmm
<mdke> email to the list, jsgotangco will push em through
<mdke> or just email them to him direct ;)
<SquishyWaffle> so your attachment size limit is very high? :)
<mdke> no
<mdke> actually list isn't a good idea
<jsgotangco> its not
<mdke> email to any one of us
<SquishyWaffle> ok
<jsgotangco> http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/TakingScreenshots
<SquishyWaffle> ok
<mdke> interesting
* SquishyWaffle grabs the doc tree and starts tinkering
<SquishyWaffle> what packages do I need for this makefile script?
<SquishyWaffle> docbook?
<jsgotangco> well that went well
<mdke> what are you building?
<SquishyWaffle> I'm looking at the root of the ubuntu-docs tree
<SquishyWaffle> looks to assemble .html files or something
<mdke> ignore the makefile stuff
<mdke> that is just for packaging the docs
<mdke> oh, you can use "make html"
<jsgotangco> i dont even make my stuff
<jsgotangco> hehe
<jsgotangco> i like to do it hardcore
<mdke> hmm glad sabdfl is involved
<jsgotangco> what is 12 UTC, noon?
<mdke> yes
<jsgotangco> who that's not so bad here
<jsgotangco> (4pm)
<jsgotangco> oh wait
<jsgotangco> 8pm
<jsgotangco> not so bad either
<SquishyWaffle> hrm, khelpcenter is executed directly on these .xml files?
<mdke> i think so, better ask jsgotangco 
<SquishyWaffle> trying to look at kde/kynaptic/C/kynaptic.xml and it's horribly garbled in khelpcenter
<jsgotangco> no khelpcenter uses KHTML
<mdke> ah khelpcenter sucks
<mdke> *ksucks
<jsgotangco> yelp sucks more though
<SquishyWaffle> so what's best to use in KDE?
<jsgotangco> skrew you
<jsgotangco> SquishyWaffle: we still use Khelpcenter but need to clean it up
<jsgotangco> since we use docbook, we can easily create other formats
<mdke> ubuntu/kubuntu docs is a topic for the meeting imho
<SquishyWaffle> jsgotangco: Am I right by doing a: khelpcenter kde/kynaptic/C/kynaptic.xml?
<SquishyWaffle> it comes out as a huge mass of words
<mdke> seems khelpcenter doesn't read xml
<SquishyWaffle> so I'll probably have ot use yelp from KDE?
<mdke> or build the html i guess
<mdke> jsgotangco, how do you check your docs?
<SquishyWaffle> no idea how to build this html, it doesn't even look like the html.sh file is actually building anything
<jsgotangco> yes
<jsgotangco> use yelp
<jsgotangco> kde doesn't have a docbook xml viewer
<jsgotangco> html.sh does't work
<SquishyWaffle> is anyone able to run yelp with kde/kynaptic/C/kynaptic.xml without getting a boatload of errors and a blank page?
<jsgotangco> SquishyWaffle: its probably not well-formed xml
<SquishyWaffle> yargh :/
<jsgotangco> hold on let me check
<mdke> looks fine
<jsgotangco> hmm
<jsgotangco> haha
<mdke> works here
<jsgotangco> my kubuntu doesn't have docbook in the first place
<jsgotangco> thats why its not validating
<jsgotangco> hehe
<SquishyWaffle> I've got docbook, is there any sub-packages that are needed?
<mdke> maybe the yelp dependencies aren't right
<jsgotangco> i have to check
<jsgotangco> yelp depends on something like 29 packages
<jsgotangco> (strange that it also gets mozilla-firefox)
<SquishyWaffle> heh
<jsgotangco> let me review the CC meeting first
<jsgotangco> the last part is quite interesting
<mdke> review?
<jsgotangco> i was roaming around when
<mdke> ah when i kicked off?
<mdke> ok
<mdke> i/it
<jsgotangco> im in a client atm
<jsgotangco> its only 8am
* SquishyWaffle found his first thing to correct :)
<mdke> thats the stuff
<mdke> all clear with the step by step patch thing?
<SquishyWaffle> oh, you want every minor change documented with a patchfile?
<mdke> no no
<mdke> just whatever you want to do
<SquishyWaffle> oh ok, didn't know because some people are that way with CVS and C/C++ development :0
<mdke> after you've worked on it and want to go to bed, patch
<SquishyWaffle> ok
<SquishyWaffle> I can issue a patch statement from the root directory and get everything in one hit, right?
<jsgotangco> well
<jsgotangco> we would rather patch small
<SquishyWaffle> so a per-file basis?
<jsgotangco> yes
<SquishyWaffle> ok, working on the quickguide atm
<jsgotangco> kde?
<SquishyWaffle> yup, found a few little glitches
<jsgotangco> heh
<jsgotangco> blame me
<SquishyWaffle> it happens, that's what I'm here for :0
<jsgotangco> feel free to mess up with the structure
<jsgotangco> im just doing screenshots for now
<SquishyWaffle> it looks neat, I like the introduction and the legend
<jsgotangco> wtf even yelp looks good in KDE
<SquishyWaffle> yeah, not bad
<jsgotangco> hmmm there's a problem with kynaptic.xml
<SquishyWaffle> it was pretty mangled
<jsgotangco> hmm
<mdke> seems to validate here
<mdke> and i can view it perfectly
<jsgotangco> hold on, i'll brb and reboot to ubuntu (in kubuntu)
<jsgotangco> hmm
<jsgotangco> am i missing something
<jsgotangco> even in gnome, the file isnt valid
<mdke> whats wrong with it?
<jsgotangco> no idea
<mdke> i'll do you a screenshot
<mdke> http://www.mdke.org/images/yelp.png
<jsgotangco> nice domain
<jsgotangco> heh
<mdke> got it recently
<jsgotangco> hmm wtf is not here
<jsgotangco> i have docbook
<mdke> i'm not on ubuntu
<jsgotangco> xslt
<jsgotangco> hmmm
<mdke> but its working
<jsgotangco> what are you using?
<mdke> and the validate script is fine
<mdke> gentoo
<mdke> don't make me turn on my laptop
<SquishyWaffle> argh gentoo
<mdke> argh kubuntu
<mdke> :p
<SquishyWaffle> mmmm
<SquishyWaffle> emerge kubuntu
<jsgotangco> gentoo, so you like it hard
<SquishyWaffle> I love that picture of the boat on bottom of that ricer site :)
<SquishyWaffle> "It could be that the purpose of your life is only to serve as a warning to others"
<SquishyWaffle> http://funroll-loops.org/gentoo.jpg
<mdke> :(
<SquishyWaffle> that website is hilarious, lots of good quotes
<mdke> will check it out
<SquishyWaffle> it's worth a chuckle
<jsgotangco> is that the one with Ubuntu with the cleavage
<SquishyWaffle> no, that's the one with big racecars and little spoilers
<SquishyWaffle> Gentoo Ricers :)
<SquishyWaffle> http://funroll-loops.org
<jsgotangco> ahhh Type R fans
<jsgotangco> i used to drive a Type R before i got married
<mdke> oh thats so harsh
<SquishyWaffle> heh, well read some of the quotes, they are amusing
<mdke> yeah
<SquishyWaffle> "Binary packages are bad! If you don't use your system to compile itself, it will lose the ability to compile itself. Huge systems like gnome, libc etc. are constantly decaying into complexity. Your pain is necessary, because a fraction of people like you will try and relieve that pain by improving the system."
<SquishyWaffle> and it's got a shot of an old P1 with a Turbo button on the bottom :)
<mdke> so true
<mdke> *grins*
<SquishyWaffle> those things were wicked
<mdke> gentoo rocks
<SquishyWaffle> I'd push my turbo button before playing Commander Keen and I was rockin
<mdke> "Sure, the extra 2% you gain from optimizing for your CPU is nice, but that's not main the reason to use Gentoo. It's about control. I have two words for the anti-Gentoo critics: "use variables". That's the power of Gentoo, being able to choose whether or not you want to install all of KDE just to get arts, or whether you want to enable gnome support in Abiword. No RPM-based distro can do that."
<mdke> hey thats true
<jsgotangco> hmm
<jsgotangco> mdke
<jsgotangco> help me out think
<mdke> what errors does the validate script give you?
<jsgotangco> no not that thing
<jsgotangco> for the meeting
<jsgotangco> heh
<mdke> wassup?
<jsgotangco> how should i start this email
<mdke> don't make it too melodramatic
<jsgotangco> hah
<mdke> send me what you have and i'll look at it when i wake up?
<mdke> its 2 am
<jsgotangco> "hey dudes, let's meet up and rock the casbah at"
<jsgotangco> nah, i'll just review the irclog
<SquishyWaffle> where are the conventions stored? I'm trying to come up with a list of the various tags like <note>
<mdke> not sure they all are tbh
<mdke> if you come up with such a list, put it on the wiki it would be an excellent tool
<jsgotangco> you can use bluefish though
<SquishyWaffle> hrm, /common/C/conventions.xml
<SquishyWaffle> I may just do that mdke
<mdke> hey i'd read it
<mdke> would be good for newcomers too
<mdke> jsgotangco, just say, the docteam needs to review its targets and directions and that canonical people have expressed a wish to help out and bring us closer to the community
<mdke> jsgotangco, then ask for availability and agenda
<SquishyWaffle> DocteamVariousTags sound like a good page name?
<jsgotangco> *sigh* i have to check the wiki then, i hate the wiki
<mdke> jsgotangco, i will help out in whatever way you want me to
<mdke> SquishyWaffle, sure whatever you like, make sure you link it in the docteam section tho
<jsgotangco> ill refer to past wiki entries
<mdke> cool
<mdke> bed for me
<mdke> good night y'all
<jsgotangco> night see you later then in a few hours
<mdke> gimme 8 hours
<mdke> ;)
<mdke> my god that guy Mez
<mdke> http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/NewbieGods
<SquishyWaffle> rofl
<mdke> jsgotangco, can you explain what sabdfl was talking about when he referred to email addresses @ubuntu.com during the docteam discussion?
<mdke> i must have missed that particular argument
<SquishyWaffle> ugh, spelling error on that page, must fix :)
<jsgotangco> hmmm
<jsgotangco> ohh
<jsgotangco> he was referring to jdub
<mdke> ??
<mdke> there was some dispute over his email address?
<jsgotangco> no no no
<mdke> ;)
<jsgotangco> he was referring to the mini flame war that involved sean, jdub and others who decided to dive in
<mdke> oh well
<mdke> maybe I misunderstood
<jsgotangco> Newbie Gods?
<jsgotangco> oh now its about power
<mdke> jsgotangco, from the meeting, but Mez has already taken it up like its an official project
* mdke sighs
<mdke> open source is exhausting
<mdke> <-- bed for real now
<jsgotangco> okay
<SquishyWaffle> think the <command> tag might be broken
<SquishyWaffle> Check this out: https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/DocteamDocBookTags
<jsgotangco> hmmm nice
<SquishyWaffle> definitely not a complete list but it's a start
<SquishyWaffle> howdy
<jeffsch> howdy
<jeffsch> SquishyWaffle: are you greg taylor?
<SquishyWaffle> Yes I am, jeff
<jeffsch> cool. I just saw DocteamDocBookTags
<jeffsch> it's good to have.
<SquishyWaffle> good deal, I was hoping it wasn't already done
<jeffsch> I have started a styleguide. see StyleGuideDiscussion
<jeffsch> maybe you could move DocteamDocBookTags info to there?
<SquishyWaffle> sure, doesn't look like the make pdf stuff is working though
<jeffsch> yeah. it only works if you have apache fop installed.
<SquishyWaffle> ahhh
<jeffsch> I put a pdf in the repos yesterday, though
<SquishyWaffle> what's the package for fop?
<jeffsch> if i had a brain, i would be able to remember how I got the fop stuff :-(
<SquishyWaffle> heh, no biggy
<jeffsch> i think i got it directly from apache
<SquishyWaffle> doesn't look like yelp is letting me view that thing either, shoot
<SquishyWaffle> make html worked, that's just as good
<jeffsch> yelp is working fine for me...
<SquishyWaffle> I tell ya what, let me work on the tag listing for a while and make sure it's complete before moving it to that. I may re-organize the list as I learn more about the doc system
<jeffsch> no problem.
<jsgotangco> jeffsch!
<jeffsch> howdy
<jsgotangco> i'm calling a meeting
<jeffsch> ok
<jsgotangco> sabdfl, jdub and mako are interested in joining
<jeffsch> what's it about?
<jsgotangco> well we just had a CC meeting a few hours ago and sabdfl was pretty worried over the mini flame war in the list
<jsgotangco> so first thing in agenda is to review our targets
<jsgotangco> at least update what we've been doing
<jsgotangco> second is at least chart a roadmap of what approach we would want to do with work
<jsgotangco> third is involve CC and create common ground so we can work together
<SquishyWaffle> CC?
<jsgotangco> Community Council
<SquishyWaffle> ok
<jsgotangco> i'm going to convince froud to attend, given that he has just withdrew his name in the list and deleted his details from the wiki
* jeffsch is reading backlogs
<jsgotangco> http://people.ubuntu.com/~fabbione/irclogs/ubuntu-meeting-current.html
<jsgotangco> transcript about docteam starts at 01:34
<SquishyWaffle> what's this about @ubuntu.com email addresses?
<jdub> SquishyWaffle: members get addresses, but they haven't been set up yet
<SquishyWaffle> have there been arguments about this? I'm not sure how that was relevant to the meeting
<jdub> oh, not about that
<jdub> the reference there was about a comment on the mailing list
<jdub> about the relative strength of people who have ubuntu.com addresses
<SquishyWaffle> what do you mean by that?
<jdub> there's a bit of an insider/outsider feel sometimes
<jdub> which has been exacerbated by members not having ubuntu.com addresses
<SquishyWaffle> I can agree with that
<jdub> it's just a perspective thing
<SquishyWaffle> but I don't think it'd be in the interest of them to hand out addresses to every single user. That becomes a substantial infrastructure problem.
<jdub> no, just ubuntu members
<jsgotangco> SquishyWaffle, we're going to fix that
* jsgotangco winks at jdub
<SquishyWaffle> Eh?
<jdub> elmo's going to fix that ;)
<SquishyWaffle> I assume elmo is a server admin?
<jdub> yes
<jsgotangco> yeah
<jsgotangco> no i mean the communication problem
<jdub> oh right
<jdub> yes, there is going to be much rocking for breezy
<SquishyWaffle> growing pains :)
<jsgotangco> im going to send an email to the ubuntu-doc, ubuntu-devel about the planning a meeting about this as well as update on whats been happening on svn
<jdub> our users will gasp and shiver!
<jsgotangco> i'm pretty worried about what will be delivered in time
<jdub> jsgotangco: what's your planned time for the meeting?
<jsgotangco> probably next week if its reasonable but time would be an issue
<jsgotangco> so i should get a consensus first
<jdub> sometimes better to propose a time, and see how it fits
<jsgotangco> hmm ok for us its not a problem
<jdub> otherwise you'll just get a meandering thread with no resolution ;)
<jsgotangco> but for our euro fiends
<jsgotangco> friends
<jsgotangco> heh
<jdub> fiends indeed!
<jsgotangco> what time do you suggest?
<jeffsch> jsgotangco: propose a time that's best for you ;-), and we can take it from there
<jsgotangco> okay
<jdub> jsgotangco: would suggest not saying 'fiends' in announce mail ;-)
<jdub> interhemisphere war is uncomfortable at the best of times
<jsgotangco> 12UTC seems acceptable to majority
<jeffsch> hmmm.... 12UTC = 5am here
<jdub> jeffsch: where are you?
<jeffsch> jsgotangco:  can i take back that part about choosing a time that's best for you? :-)
<jeffsch> Vancouver
<jsgotangco> well ok its either 12UTC or 22UTC
<SquishyWaffle> I'm going to have a nice addition to the Kubuntu Quick Guide ready in a while
<jsgotangco> awesome
<jeffsch> I like 22 better, but my availability is more likely at 12. I can give up sleep, but I prolly can't give up work.
<jsgotangco> jeffsch, that styleguide is awesome
<jeffsch> It's just a start...
<jsgotangco> for a start, its very neat
<SquishyWaffle> It's a good idea and is i needed to keep everyone on the same page
<jdub> worth checking out the gnome documentation team guidelines too
<jdub> very useful
<jeffsch> yes. it would be good if we could get input from lots of people too... 
<jdub> (heavily informed by some of the sun doc dudes)
<jeffsch> jdub: yes. there are lots of links to these thinks on StyleGuideDiscussion wiki page
<jdub> ahr, missed that one!
<jeffsch> I also have Read Me First! by Sun Technical Pubs
<jsgotangco> you made a number of good references
<jeffsch> ok, i have to go for a while. shower->Dr. Who->food.
<jeffsch> cya
<SquishyWaffle> ok, tell ya what
<SquishyWaffle> let me send you an update so you can see if I'm on the right track
<jsgotangco> ok send the patch and ill check
<SquishyWaffle> ok, what email do you want it sent to?
<jsgotangco> hmm just send it to the list or if you're not confident about it, jgotangco@gmail.com
<SquishyWaffle> ok, I can do the list thing
<SquishyWaffle> sent
<jsgotangco> ok its still not there but it should arrive
<SquishyWaffle> just now arrived for me
<SquishyWaffle> not sure if you'll have to apply kquickguide from the kde dir and the other one from the libs dir
<SquishyWaffle> it was saying there were more changes than there were due to some multi-lingual stuff being funky so I had to do it from lower directories
<jsgotangco> i dont understand what you mean
<SquishyWaffle> you might have to reply those patches from directories other than the root ubuntu-doc
<SquishyWaffle> for the KDE one, cd to the kde dir and apply it
<jsgotangco> (english is not my primary language)
<SquishyWaffle> for the global.ent one, cd to libs and apply it there
* SquishyWaffle prods :)
<jsgotangco> hold on i still get errors
<SquishyWaffle> What kind of errors? During patching or when you launch Yelp?
<jsgotangco> ok i see the problem now let me revert back
<jsgotangco> i'll patch this in a few minutes and you'll see it in the commits list
<SquishyWaffle> did I mis-match some tags in a rush to get that patch to you? :)
<jsgotangco> i just fixed some stuff
<jsgotangco> it messed a couple of stuff as well
<SquishyWaffle> ick, that patch went kinda funky
<jsgotangco> its ok we all learn for the first time
<SquishyWaffle> did you see what I added?
<jsgotangco> quickguide patches are ok
<jsgotangco> global.ent theres not much to change
<SquishyWaffle> yeah, added two lines I believe, changed a .com to a .org since it looks friendlier and non-commercial
<SquishyWaffle> we don't have a mailing list index like Ubuntu does to link to so I made the two you had listed under Support clickable with links to the list page for each.
<jsgotangco> hmmm
<jsgotangco> but we're moving to .com
<jsgotangco> henrik is the one doing that
<SquishyWaffle> we're moving everything to .com?
<jsgotangco> if you notice we're all using ubuntu.com :)
<mpt> Can anyone tell me how similar Ubuntu's Gnome menu layout is to that of vanilla Gnome?
<jsgotangco> SquishyWaffle, done
<jsgotangco> just need to spellcheck
<SquishyWaffle> ok
<jsgotangco> if it's ok with you, i'll defer the global.ent patch for now to check what will be affected
<SquishyWaffle> sure, there will be some broken links on the Getting Help section
<jsgotangco> on kquickguide?
<SquishyWaffle> yeah
<jsgotangco> i think it kind of affected some docs
<SquishyWaffle> it shouldn't have, just added two lines
<SquishyWaffle> unless the patch somehow got garbled
<jsgotangco> ok i'll just edit the global.ent myself then
<SquishyWaffle> yeah, it's a quicky
<SquishyWaffle> line 61 is where my two lines are added after
<SquishyWaffle> values: kubuntu-lists-users and kubuntu-lists-devel.
<jsgotangco> ok commited
<jsgotangco> ok svn up
<SquishyWaffle> good deal, how did you like the sections I added?
<jsgotangco> yeah really nice man, thanks
<jsgotangco> i gotta eat first
<jsgotangco> brb
<SquishyWaffle> ok
<jsgotangco> ill just post the commit later
<SquishyWaffle> k
* Burgundavia has 338 unread emails
* robitaille thinks Burgundavia  doesn't spend enough time online to keep up with his emails
<Burgundavia> I couldn'
<Burgundavia> t check it yesterday
<Burgundavia> I am subscribed to the bugzilla and breezy changes
<robitaille> filters :)
<Burgundavia> gmail has them
<robitaille> I guess since I also subscribe to bugzilla, I probably reach a couple hundred e-mails per day as well...
<Burgundavia> robitaille, are you going to be at the next vlug meeting?
<Burgundavia> I would love to sit down with you after the meeting to talk about ubuntu-ca stuff
<robitaille> plus another 50-100 per day at work..sigh
<jsgotangco> hello canucks
<robitaille> Yes I'll try to be at the next vlug meeting
<Burgundavia> robitaille, great
<robitaille> Hi jsgotangco 
<Burgundavia> salut jsgotangco 
<robitaille> so jsgotangco , when do you think we'll get our @ubuntu.com e-mails?  The topic keeps coming back today in various channels :)
<jsgotangco> let's bug elmo for that
<Burgundavia> I had a dream about the fridge (the ubuntu one)
<robitaille> I already sent him an e-mail last week that got totally ignored...
<Burgundavia> that it was a seperate app
<Burgundavia> launched from within synaptic
<jsgotangco> omg
* Burgundavia thinks he needs to get a job and dream about normal things
<robitaille> I have seen the Fridge...still pretty simple, but it's alive
<jsgotangco> robitaille, i guess he was pretty busy with sarge coming out
<robitaille> yeah, that's what I thought, so I didn't push it with him.
<jsgotangco> well sabdfl reminded him about it last night
* robitaille thinkgs that even with a normal job  he doesn't always dream normal things...
<Burgundavia> robitaille, is the fridge live for all to view?
<robitaille> Burgundavia,  no. I got a special sneak preview recently...it is on one of jdub web server.  There is nothing to see really yet.  It's no even  alpha release quality yet
<Burgundavia> ah
<robitaille> jsgotangco,   I have added the docteam meeting on the Wiki's Calendar
<jsgotangco> that's great..thanks
<jsgotangco> yeah, its on jdub's dsl
<jsgotangco> heh
<jsgotangco> wow that article on sabdfl is a good read
<jsgotangco> i'm printing this for my wife
<robitaille> which article?
<jsgotangco> "The Right Stuff"
<jsgotangco> http://free.financialmail.co.za/05/0603/cover/coverstory.htm
<jsgotangco> im amazed at the links i get from sounder
<robitaille> one day all these links will appear on the Fridge :)
<jsgotangco> wow
<Burgundavia> yes, and MOTUGames has grand plans for the fridge as well
* jsgotangco is listening to some weird japanese heavy metal cum anime songs
<jsgotangco> i bought it in a sale bin
<jsgotangco> hmmm loco-contacts mailing list
<Burgundavia> I learned that word geek originally meant circus side-show people who bit the heads off chickens
<jsgotangco> hmmm where did you find it?
<robitaille> the word "loco-contact"  is reminding me of my worse Ubuntu problem these days...  (these canucks simply cannot organize themselves as a loco...)
<jsgotangco> hah
<Burgundavia> robitaille, to be fair, neither of us has really stepped up and taken charge, as we are the most active in the greater Ubuntu community
<robitaille> well, I have tried a little bit...shook things a couple of times; organized an useless vote, etc.   But I'm sane enough not to volunter for the top job :)
<robitaille> I cannot say organizing and managing  a loco is really a personal interest of mine
<Burgundavia> nor is it mine
<Burgundavia> hmm http://www.desktoplinux.com/news/NS4010863593.html
<jsgotangco> aiming for Windows98 is so 90s
<Burgundavia> there are a lot of 98 machines out there
<Burgundavia> and machines that shouldn
<Burgundavia> t be running XP
<jsgotangco> although this can be a good start
<robitaille> I run Win98 in my 2nd partition; it works fine for what I need it for (games for my 5 year old).  So does that mean I could switch him to Mepis :)
<jsgotangco> hmmm it just died
<Burgundavia> what the heck?
<robitaille> that was weird.  And #ubuntu is now off-limit
<jsgotangco> yeah
<jsgotangco> everyone got booted?
<robitaille> I got booted
<robitaille> anyway, that's a sign that I should go to bed (1:22am).  good night
<jsgotangco> hehe night
* Burgundavia just got up
* Burgundavia lives in the same timezone as robitalle
<jsgotangco> man you should live somewhere in europe instead
<Burgundavia> lol
* Kinnison nods
<Kinnison> You should
<Kinnison> come here at once
<jsgotangco> there you already have a sponsor
<mdke> morning all
<mdke> jsgotangco, hows it going?
<jsgotangco> hey
<jsgotangco> i see you're awake already
<jsgotangco> and its only 5:44pm here
<mdke> 10.45
<jsgotangco> hmmm i wonder how to mess up this box in inkscape
<jsgotangco> mdke, ping
<mdke> yo
<jsgotangco> the email ok with you?
<mdke> sure very good
<mdke> get a reply from Sean?
<jsgotangco> no not yet
<jsgotangco> i hope so
<jsgotangco> if not, we'll do plan B then
<mdke> ?
<jsgotangco> Panic hehe
* mdke sighs
<mdke> too much green tea again hey?
<jsgotangco> i drink that stuff everyday so its basically part of my bloodstream
<jsgotangco> probably aroound 2l of it everday
<jsgotangco> well that Taylor dude made a nice patch with kubuntu
<jsgotangco> i think he's good material
<mdke> yeah looks keen
<mdke> whats this about changing global.ents?
<jsgotangco> its very minor i let the patch in so he could get a feel for it, but i'm going to fix it up later
<jsgotangco> no sense in having so many double entries
<mdke> as long as there are no broken links
<jsgotangco> sure they won't
<jsgotangco> it'll be a disaster
<mdke> did you say you were changing addresses to ubuntu.com?
<jsgotangco> no not really, robitaille was asking about it i told him it's elmo that's supposed to do something about it
<mdke> oh ok
<mdke> ubuntu.com is still a redirect afaik
<jsgotangco> well i don't really mind about it for now
<jsgotangco> doing screenshots is a such a bore
<jsgotangco> i found these neat british invasion cds at a sale
<mdke> DocteamDocBookTags is cool
<mdke> i like that guy
<jsgotangco> yeah
<jsgotangco> two contribs on the 1st day
<jsgotangco> heh
<mdke> wow that page is gonna be so useful for new contributors
<jsgotangco> even jeffsch think its great
<mdke> hey jeff-away likes dr who?
<jsgotangco> i've never watched dr who in my entire life
<jsgotangco> (its not available in my area)
<mdke> if I had a good upload speed i would send some to you
<mdke> but sadly it would take several days for one episode
<jsgotangco> that's piracy!
<jsgotangco> heh
* jsgotangco has been looking for old judas priest LPs
<mdke> yeah
<mdke> i hear piracy funds terrorism
<mdke> and is sponsored by the devil
<mdke> right so what am I gonna do today
<jsgotangco> you dont have class?
<mdke> my course is finished now
<mdke> as of last week
<jsgotangco> wow
<jsgotangco> i want to go home already but its raining so hard outside
<mdke> *grins*
<mdke> you have monsoons there?
<jsgotangco> terrible man
<jsgotangco> we have typhoons
<jsgotangco> hehe
<jsgotangco> monsoons are sissy
<mdke> gosh
<mdke> is it warm rain tho?
<jsgotangco> sometimes yeah
<jsgotangco> but not lately
<jsgotangco> which means the rainy season is almost here
<mdke> bummer
<jsgotangco> true
<mdke> hi ealden 
<jsgotangco> my car is so small it might get submerged in flash floods
<mdke> *grins*
<ealden> Hi :) 
<mdke> at least you have a car
<jsgotangco> (its bigger than a MINI though)
<mdke> i would just drown straight off
<jsgotangco> mdke, its a cheap korean car
<mdke> are they bad?
<jsgotangco> actually, its nice
<jsgotangco> www.picanto.com
<jsgotangco> i hear its quite popular in the UK
<mdke> ah i know that
<mdke> never seen em here, but lots in italy
<jsgotangco> just bought it last november
<jsgotangco> ealden, talk heh
<mdke> btw, check urls before you make em up ;p
<jsgotangco> eh?
<mdke> *click*
<jsgotangco> are you talking about the email or the global.ent
<mdke> picanto.com
<jsgotangco> hmmm
<jsgotangco> wtf
<jsgotangco> oh its www.kia-picanto.com
<mdke> argh
* mdke jumps out of his skin at the music
<jsgotangco> hah
<ealden> jsgotangco, heh
<jsgotangco> i'm in love with my car
<jsgotangco> (its powered by steve jobs though)
<ealden> Kernel upgrades...
<jsgotangco> hmm i gotta go
<jsgotangco> its dark already
<jsgotangco> mdke, later
<mdke> ok
<mdke> night
* mode/#ubuntu-doc [+o ChrisH]  by ChanServ
* mode/#ubuntu-doc [-t]  by ChrisH
<mdke> wicked
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-doc:mdke] :  Ubuntu Doc Team - general discussion - backlog at http://people.ubuntu.com/~fabbione/irclogs | This channel tries to follow the tradition of the #gnome-love channel on irc.gimp.net, all new comers and questions are welcomed, as long as you follow the Ubuntu community code of conduct @ http://www.ubuntulinux.org/community/conduct first.
<mdke> shit
<mdke> gnome 2.10 arrives in gentoo
<mdke> my system is gonna be tired...
<Burgundavia> lol
* Burgundavia has a solutin
<mdke> i don't like the sound of that
<mdke> does it involve ditching gentoo?
* Burgundavia imagines a machine without 100% less gentoo
<Burgundavia> and thus 100% less compiling from source
<mdke> hmm double negative
<mdke> without 100% less gentoo = with 100% more gentoo
<Burgundavia> how does a source based distro lag so far behind?
<mdke> they test it for awhile
<mdke> the gnome team isn't very large iirc
<mdke> shit 46 packages to compile
* mdke crosses fingers
<Burgundavia> rofl
<Burgundavia> lmao
<mdke> hmm
<mdke> are you laughing at me or with me
<mdke> jdub, ping
<Burgundavia> mdke, laughing at you, sorry
<mdke> *grins*
<mdke> i'll have the last laugh 
<mdke> emerge: (20 of 46)
* Burgundavia wonders who will have the last laugh when it is done and mdke still runs gentoo
<mdke> hmm
<mdke> always got an answer haven't you
<mdke> cheeky bastard
<Burgundavia> yes
<Burgundavia> to both statements
<mdke> *laughs*
<mdke> :)
<jdub> mdke: pong
<Burgundavia> jdub, I think he is wrestling his gentoo box to the ground
<mdke> jdub, here i am
<mdke> jdub, i contacted the founder of this channel recently and asked him to -t the channel, and also maybe transfer the foundership to you, he has made both of us ops
<jdub> oh ok
<jdub> hrm, i should find someone who really knows about irc to give all of this to ;)
<mdke> *laughs*
<mdke> /cs access #ubuntu-doc list
<mdke> jdub, sorry if I suggested the wrong person, i just figured, since you have #ubuntu and all
<jdub> yeah, that's okay
<jdub> easier to handle in bulk
<mdke> ;)
<mdke> hey jalrnc 
<jalrnc> mdke: hi matt!
<mdke> how are ya
<jalrnc> mdke: I have a question
<mdke> shoot
<jalrnc> we are translating the quickguide as you know, and it makes references to application names that show up in the gnome menus
<mdke> yes
<jalrnc> those application names in gnome already exist when we install portuguese support with ubuntu
<mdke> yes
<jalrnc> 1. some of those names are not properly translated 2. we would like to have them corrected and so be consistent with quickguide
<mdke> ah interesting
<jalrnc> how do we go about correcting those menu names?
<jalrnc> bug? any other process?
<mdke> you'll have to amend the translation in the relevant package
<mdke> lets ask carlos
<jalrnc> I believe those translations were probably inherited from debian
<mdke> probably come from gnome upstream
<jalrnc> or that, yes
<jalrnc> in that case maybe we should also contact the upstream maintainer/developer responsible for those translations?
<jalrnc> if he is portuguese, then it would be nice to have some coordination
<mdke> it may be possible to correct it in rosetta then push it upstream
<jalrnc> that would work out too, yes
<mdke> /j #launchpad
<jalrnc> but it also depends on how the upstream developer feels about it, we don't want to cause any conflict, but some names really need some work
<mdke> ok, join the #launchpad channel
<mdke> goddammit
<mdke> ??changed:
<mdke> -    * IMPORTANT: do not change the Page name of the SandBox page!
<mdke>     * IMPORTANT: do not change the Page name of the MiguelRuiz page!
<mdke> people are so thick
<jjesse> why would the MiguelRuiz page matter?
<jjesse> :):
<jdub> Burgundavia: dholback packaged istanbul
<Burgundavia> jdub, I am reading the discussion right now. My heart is happy
<mdke> dholbach is so the man
<mdke> jjesse, i had posted a diff, showing that the SandBox page had been renamed to a personal page. But he has taken care of it :)
<jjesse> welcome squishywaffle :)
<SquishyWaffle> howdy
<mdke> hi SquishyWaffle 
<mdke> awesome work already
<SquishyWaffle> hey mdke, thanks
<mdke> i love the tag doc
<SquishyWaffle> yeah, I had to have a cheat sheet since I've never messed with this stuff before and figured it'd be useful to make it public
<mdke> very useful
<SquishyWaffle> So are you guys just editing these docs in vim or equivalent editors or is there any WYSIWYG type deal available?
<mdke> i use gedit
<mdke> most editors will have syntax highlighting
<SquishyWaffle> Yeah, vim has worked out very well
<mdke> ok cool
<SquishyWaffle> think we need to map out the structure of the ubuntu-doc tree, I had to fumble around to find the globals.ent file. That might be the next thing on my to-do list unless it already exists
<mdke> fair enough
<mdke> although care should be taken when editing those sort of files
<SquishyWaffle> yeah, because the entries are often called by so many
<mdke> yes
<mdke> so removing things can break links etc
<SquishyWaffle> I can include that on the structure page in bold lettering :0
<mdke> ok
<mdke> but generally the emphasis should be on writing the docs...
<SquishyWaffle> yeah, I realize that but I like to fully understand something before I start breaking it from lack of understanding of the big picture :)
<SquishyWaffle> Like if I didn't realize that globals.ent existed and just started statically linking to a bunch of stuff, it's inefficient and inflexible to change later
<mdke> yes thats fair enough
<SquishyWaffle> that and I have too much free time right now
<mdke> *laughs*
<mdke> good way of spending it
<SquishyWaffle> but hey, I get paid to do this since I can justify working on it at work since we're a Kubuntu/Ubuntu shop
<mdke> url?
<SquishyWaffle> our page is awful pending migration to a new server :) http://gis.clemson.edu
<SquishyWaffle> look at the last updated date
<mdke> looks alright
<SquishyWaffle> that's a Win2k server that I finally bugged my boss to replace with a SuSe Enterprise 9 box
<mdke> sounds cool
<mdke> so you are at uni as well?
<mdke> or you work at one?
<SquishyWaffle> I'm both a student and an employee
<SquishyWaffle> College is good for collaborative development, nothing beats living next door to a co-developer
<mdke> yeah i bet
<mdke> Be RiGhT bAcK
<mdke> gonna try gnome 2.10
<SquishyWaffle> yay :)
<SquishyWaffle> well you're here so I guess you didn't crash
<mdke> looks good
<mdke> gnome 2.10 just made it into gentoo you see
<SquishyWaffle> So we had it before them?
<mdke> oh miles
<SquishyWaffle> that surprises me
<mdke> well Ubuntu release dates are synchronised with Gnome
<mdke> gentoo tests stuff for a while after they are released so it was quite late
* SquishyWaffle resists the urge to comment on that :)
<SquishyWaffle> my KDE never worked right on Gentoo, made me so mad
<SquishyWaffle> I'd click on an mp3 and Xmms would launch like three times
<mdke> :/
<SquishyWaffle> think they fixed whatever it was
<mdke> you would hope so!
<SquishyWaffle> I know a kid that had an Inspiron, which is ungodly hot under normal circumstances. Did a complete stage 1 emerge along with KDE and OpenOffice in one swipe and the processor died
<mdke> very odd
<SquishyWaffle> Their fans sound like lawnmowers when they get hot :)
<SquishyWaffle> one of the 5100's/5150's
<mdke> so the fan does not cool the processor properly?
<mdke> thats good to know
<SquishyWaffle> it's a cheap laptop with almost a desktop processor
* mdke avoids inspirons
<SquishyWaffle> well the nicer ones are great
<SquishyWaffle> but the mid-low grade ones are spooky
<mdke> right
<SquishyWaffle> once you get into the ones with Centrinos they're very nice
<SquishyWaffle> But their P4-Mobility line is scary. I got like 45 minute battery life when I had mine
<mdke> no way
<SquishyWaffle> And since the bios doesn't have working ACPI support under Linux, power management was awful and I lost even more time on Linux
<mdke> that sucls
<mdke> sucks
<SquishyWaffle> yeah, you have to recompile your kernel with a patch or two just to get basic ACPI support
<SquishyWaffle> we've had a lot of luck with IBM's newer Thinkpads though, if you're looking for a new laptop soon
<mdke> right
<mdke> i have been thinking about it
<mdke> i've heard good things about thinkpads
<SquishyWaffle> cept for the R40's, have you seen the little light thing on the top of the lid? :)
<mdke> i'll look em up
<SquishyWaffle> no no don't consider that laptop, they're a disaster waiting to happen. They have this little light in the top of the lid that you hit like FN + F3 and it turns on to light your keyboard
<SquishyWaffle> but they break down nonstop and the people who bought these things a few years back have nothing but bad things to say, we spend a lot of time working on them :(
<SquishyWaffle> but the light is cool, heh
<SquishyWaffle> we're going with the T42's for school next year. The high end model comes with a fingerprint scanner, that'll be neat to see on Linux when drivers are developed.
<SquishyWaffle> Although it doesn't run Warty without considerable effort, it looks to do fine on Hoary
<mdke> right
<mdke> ubuntu compatibility would be high priority
<SquishyWaffle> yeah, definitely. Especially wireless
<SquishyWaffle> Only bad thing is those T42's have ATI cards and the drivers haven't been perfected yet so performance is dimished slightly in comparison to Windows drivers.
<jdub> mdke: the dell X300 or X1 is a good choice (they're rebadged samsung Q20 and Q30s respectively)
<mdke> i'll make a note
<mdke> thanks jdub 
<mdke> SquishyWaffle, have you seen http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/LaptopTestingTeam ?
<jjesse> i'm running a dell laptop on ubuntu w/ no issues
<jjesse> inspiron 5150
<SquishyWaffle> mdke: That sounds vaguely familiar, let me take a peek
<SquishyWaffle> jjesse: That's what I ran for a good while :)
<jjesse> its works computer, no budget for a personal computer :(
<jjesse> dual boot xp and ubuntu
<SquishyWaffle> it does work and it gets the job done but man the battery sucks
<jjesse> you're telling me, though i've never gotten supsed to disk working correctly, i blame having mysql server isntalled
<SquishyWaffle> jjesse: are you running KDE or Gnome?
<jjesse> started w/ gnome and then apt-get installed kde
<jjesse> i just prefer how kde looks then w/ gnome
<SquishyWaffle> have you got your Function keys working for volume?
<jjesse> nope never looked into it
<SquishyWaffle> I'm not sure how to go about it, had it working under Ubuntu because there's something that's included that allows for it
<jjesse> is the fn key even mapped to anything?  i don't know how windows uses it
<SquishyWaffle> no, but it doesn't appear to pick it up in the KDE key mapper
<jjesse> nod i tried that as well
<SquishyWaffle> so does Mark Shuttleworth frequent meetings and/or the forums?
<mdke> dunno about forums
<mdke> he is the boss, so he goes to meetings
<mpt> SquishyWaffle: Not at the moment, but he's said he'll be concentrating on that more in the second half of the year
<SquishyWaffle> what name does he go under when he is around?
<mpt> on the community side of things, I mean
<mdke> he is the head of the Community Council
<mpt> SquishyWaffle: sabdfl
<mpt> Ten points if you guess what it stands for
<SquishyWaffle> ahh, I saw him on the meeting last night
<SquishyWaffle> Some Awful Bears Dig for Lunch? :)
<SquishyWaffle> south african something
<mpt> I guessed South African something too, but no
<mpt> Self-Appointed Benevolent Dictator For Life.
<SquishyWaffle> I was right with the bears!
<mdke> not a clue
<SquishyWaffle> ahh, heh
<mpt> (Google: "Did you mean: _asdfl_" ... Yeah, sure, like "asdfl" is a real word)
<Burgundavia> mdke, he is head of a little more than the CC
<mdke> Burgundavia, well the question was about meetings
<Burgundavia> true
<mdke> and community
<mdke> [21:28:39]  mdke he is the boss
<Burgundavia> oh, didn't read far enough up
<thesaltydog>  is there any goodwill mate who can spend 10 min. on this page and edit/review contents? http://www.ubuntu.com/wiki/InitScriptHumanDescriptions
<Burgundavia> thesaltydog, looking
<Burgundavia> I see inconsistent wording
<mdke> i'll have a look too
<mdke> Burgundavia, are you editing that page now?
<Burgundavia> nope
<mdke> ok cool
<Burgundavia> looking currently
<mdke> ok i'll have a go later then
<mdke> hi salty
<mdke> thesaltydog
<thesaltydog> matt, sorry
<thesaltydog> I was elsewhere
<mdke> no problem
<mdke> how are ya
<thesaltydog> trying to get that damn list, as I am in the need to release, due to a small bug
<thesaltydog> a couple of guys has edited.
<mdke> ok
<mdke> i'm working on it now
<thesaltydog> what I would recommend is this:
<thesaltydog> we need to use "common" language.
<thesaltydog> i.e.
<thesaltydog> for xorg-common I have put " Main Graphical Interface"
<mdke> sure
<thesaltydog> maybe it is not good, can be changed, but: "X-Windows System X.Org" (as it has been edited) has no sense
<mdke> fine
<mdke> i'm trying to make it user friendly
<thesaltydog> so I have to change again
<thesaltydog> is you are on the list, please change X.Org description to something simpler
<mdke> ok i will
<mdke> i haven't got there yet ;)
<mdke> but surely that is not an init script?
<thesaltydog> waddaya mean??
<mdke> xorg-common is not an init script right?
<thesaltydog> yes, it is..
<thesaltydog> it runs on system runlevel, rcS.d
<thesaltydog> the 3rd tabbed view in BUM
<mdke> hmm
<mdke> strange
<mdke> also sudo?
<thesaltydog> why?
<thesaltydog> yes also sudo
<thesaltydog> the init script "sudo" is a one-shot script that prepares to the use of sudo..
<mdke> ok
<mdke> right i've made some alterations
<thesaltydog> very good
<mdke> thesaltydog, couple of questions
<mdke> 1. is it useful do you think to explain the difference between acpid and apmd?
<Burgundavia> mdke, where do I announce a new application in rosetta?
<mdke> 2. would it be a good idea to mark some services (e.g. dbus) as "important"
<mdke> Burgundavia, announce, or insert?
<Burgundavia> announce
<mdke> rosetta-users?
<thesaltydog> 1 - yes
<Burgundavia> I have worked with someone to get their app into rosetta
<thesaltydog> 2 -no. I could take care of this from the program...
<Burgundavia> and now we need to blow his socks off by getting a massive amount of translations for it
<mdke> Burgundavia, ok cool, rosetta-users and ubuntu-translators then
<mdke> thesaltydog, ok fair enough
<mdke> thesaltydog, i've resaved now
<mdke> thesaltydog, the other thing I was thinking, do you think it is necessary to rephrase things like "server", or do most people understand that?
<thesaltydog> mdke, I was looking at your mods. Very good thanks.
<thesaltydog> Only one question:
<thesaltydog> "Updates your details at DynDNS.org" which details??
<mdke> yeah i wasn't sure about that, but i didn't like "dynamic ip address"
<mdke> i thought it was too technical
<Burgundavia> mdke, are you signed up to those lists?
<thesaltydog> you're right, but somenone could understand "distinguishing marks"?? :-)
<mdke> Burgundavia, yeah
<Burgundavia> would you mind announcing this app?
<mdke> no
<Burgundavia> https://launchpad.ubuntu.com/products/gepolabo/+translations
<mdke> ok :)
<mdke> if you want to gimme a spiel about it, i'll include that
<mdke> thesaltydog, i don't like distinguishing marks either :(
#ubuntu-doc 2005-06-16
<mdke> thesaltydog, i suppose anyone who uses ddclient will know what ip address means
<thesaltydog> ok. I was saying just that!!
<mdke> is it installed by default in Ubuntu?
<thesaltydog> no!
<mdke> ok then
<mdke> ip address it is ;)
<thesaltydog> wonderful
<thesaltydog> another issue..
<mdke> Burgundavia, tell me who to CC and stuff
<thesaltydog> for apache I have just put: Web Server
<thesaltydog> but someone has changed it to : "Apache web server"
<thesaltydog> this is not needed
<mdke> oh
<mdke> i suppose that is to distinguish it from apache2
<Burgundavia> mdke, contact.gepolabo@free.fr
<thesaltydog> as BUM displays: <scriptname> : <description>
<Burgundavia> thesaltydog, I changed it
<Burgundavia> ah
<thesaltydog> ok  Burg, thank for the rest
<Burgundavia> I didn't realize that
<thesaltydog> you couldn't know...
<mdke> ah ic
<thesaltydog> you did a nice job
<mdke> Burgundavia, wanna give me a spiel or shall I copy the product description in launchpad?
<Burgundavia> just copy the descrip
<Burgundavia> the program isn't even in Ubuntu yet
<mdke> k kewl
<thesaltydog> So Matt, when you edit the descriptions, keep in mind that users see also the script name. This could help.
<mdke> thesaltydog, yes i will :)
<mdke> Burgundavia, maybe ubuntu-translators is slightly out of place then, thoughts?
<mdke> still, the list is so low traffic that it might wake them up
<Burgundavia> yes it would
<Burgundavia> the plan is to package is sooner or later
<thesaltydog> goodnight to all
<mdke> night fabio
<mdke> Burgundavia, ok yeah
<Burgundavia> if it gets lots of translation updates, I will get off my lazy ass and get it packaged
<mdke> interesting app
<mdke> a friend of mine was working on something similar
<mdke> not open source tho i don't think
<mdke> the first version of it is actually trading i think
<mdke> email sent
<Burgundavia> mdke, cheers, thanks
<mdke> bcced you
<Burgundavia> got it
* Burgundavia wishes to remind all screenshot takers, all over the world, to use a sane them when taking screenshots
<Burgundavia> http://gbtcr.chileforge.cl/screenshots/audio_control.png
<mdke> *laughs*
<SquishyWaffle> argh
<mdke> hello kassetra Kinnison 
<kassetra> Hiya :)
<kassetra> So I'm going over these pages and pages of backports-meeting log....
<mdke> :/
<kassetra> And I'm still uncertain what exactly I'm trying to do, other than cut & paste sections around.
<mdke> i guess a general summary of decisions taken
<mdke> bullet points are very cool
<mdke> but i missed most of the meeting, so i don't know what it was like
<kassetra> long.
<kassetra> very very long.
<mdke> yeah
<mdke> there was some officialisation of the backports, is that right?
<kassetra> yeah.
<mdke> they will be in ubuntu repos?
<kassetra> yep.
<mdke> thats cool
<kassetra> very cool.
<mdke> when will that start?
<mdke> and who will work on them?
<kassetra> we're working on the integration right now, if I'm not mistaken.
<kassetra> jdong and his team.
<mdke> right
<mdke> excellent
<mdke> and will the problems that the devs are always whinghing about be sorted?
<mdke> whatever those problems are
<kassetra> LOL we sorted 99% of them out in the meeting.
<mdke> good stuff
<kassetra> yeah, another reason the meeting was so long.
<mdke> so will the backports just go into ubuntu-updates?
<mdke> or a separate repo
<kassetra> I believe (not down to that part yet of the log) that they'll have their own repo... 
<kassetra> but don't quote me on that.
<mdke> way to go Troy Williams
<mdke> whoever you are
<jdub> mpt: around?
<jsgotangco> morning
<mdke> morning dude
<jsgotangco> hmmm another patch
<jsgotangco> single patch for 3 books?
<mdke> better check it out
<mdke> you're the kde man ;)
<jsgotangco> argghh
<jsgotangco> (i dont even use kubuntu lately)
<mdke> well you've used it ;)
<mdke> hopefully the patches will be good and you can commit em
<jsgotangco> i should remind people to patch small
<mdke> good idea
<jsgotangco> 3 in 1 patch ain't so great for me
<SquishyWaffle> What do you mean you haven't been using Kubuntu lately?:)
<jsgotangco> uh oh caught
<jsgotangco> i've been into the color of poo lately
<jsgotangco> and bad fonts
<SquishyWaffle> Gnome?
<mdke> bad fonts?
<mdke> my god
<jsgotangco> heh
* mdke rings the madhouse
<jsgotangco> dude
<mdke> anything from sean jsgotangco ?
<jsgotangco> ask amu and Riddell
<mdke> oh yeah cos they're not biased
<jsgotangco> KDE is far more superior
<jsgotangco> heh
<jsgotangco> mdke, he updated the wiki
<jsgotangco> i think he's taking his time
<mdke> the meeting page?
<jsgotangco> yeah
<jsgotangco> i even checked email around midnight to see if he reacted
<jsgotangco> im glad he updated the wiki
<jsgotangco> he has a grasp of things far better than us combined
<mdke> stupid wiki
<mdke> can't see his diffs
<jsgotangco> yeah
<jsgotangco> pretty dumb
<SquishyWaffle> wish they'd get the new wiki in, this one is so sloowww
<jsgotangco> mdke, for now, let's freeze global.ent to those with commit access
<mdke> SquishyWaffle, tuesday
<SquishyWaffle> woohoo!
<jsgotangco> no patches to global.ent for now
<mdke> jsgotangco, i don't mind, its not like they are difficult to check
<mdke> as long as entities are added and not removed
<jsgotangco> ill check the links this weekend
<jsgotangco> and just group them together
<mdke> i have to go sleep
<mdke> Thu Jun  9 02:54:49 BST 2005
<jsgotangco> 3AM?
<jsgotangco> wow
<SquishyWaffle> only 10 here :)
<mdke> :/
<mdke> night then
<SquishyWaffle> cya
<jsgotangco> my wife would kill me if im still awake at that time
<jsgotangco> cya
<jsgotangco> SquishyWaffle, 10am here
<jsgotangco> heh
<SquishyWaffle> my she-boss isn't in town right now
<SquishyWaffle> am therefore immune to the "oh my god you've been up really late" attackthing
<jsgotangco> heh
<jsgotangco> i'll review this patch first
<jsgotangco> SquishyWaffle, nice job on the kquickguide
<jsgotangco> i missed that toolbar stuff
<SquishyWaffle> thanks, today has been busy otherwise I would've had some more ready. I've been turning it over in my head though
<jsgotangco> its ok no rush
<jsgotangco> we will make targets next week
<SquishyWaffle> cool. Did we have a section on CD ripping?
<SquishyWaffle> or is there more a kuserguide rather than quickguide topic?
<jsgotangco> you can probably do that kind of stuff on the userguide
<jsgotangco> the quickguide should just be a visual tour
<SquishyWaffle> ok, so quickguide is bare minimum to get you up and going and userguide is thorough
<jsgotangco> that's why i put up this table at the last part
<jsgotangco> yeah
<jsgotangco> that's the idea
<SquishyWaffle> do you want me to make screenshots of the toolbar elements?
<jsgotangco> sure use imagemagick
<jsgotangco> i'm almost done with the screenshots of the other apps
<jsgotangco> just send the png personally to me when you're ready
<SquishyWaffle> yeah, i didn't want to go take many since I remember you saying that
<jsgotangco> i should talk to amu or Riddell about the roadmap though
<jsgotangco> screenshots can be a chore
<jsgotangco> hmm the patches are rejected
<jsgotangco> should request for smaller ones then
<mpt> jdub: pong
<jsgotangco> ealden, ping
<jsgotangco> hmm
<ealden> jsgotangco, pong :D
<jsgotangco> ealden, intersted in helping out?
<ealden> Yep.  I'm studying how this team works based on the wiki...
<ealden> The initial checkout is a pain over dialup :D
<jsgotangco> hmmm
<jsgotangco> ill be uploading a ton of PNGs soon
<jsgotangco> :)
<ealden> Overnight checkouts, then :P
<jsgotangco> i'll expect your patches then
<ealden> :) 
<jsgotangco> you better svn up before making any edits though
<jsgotangco> if you like a gui front end for svn, try getting esvn from universe
<ealden> Hrrm, QT based
<ealden> I'm getting it now
<ealden> Err... apt-getting..
<ealden> Or whatever term is applicable :P
<jsgotangco> checking out
<ealden> Ah
<jsgotangco> enrico!
<enrico> hi!
<jsgotangco> enrico, we'll be having a meeting next week, hope it'll work out fine
<jsgotangco> enrico, things have been pretty rough, but i guess we'll manage
<enrico> jsgotangco: meeting with whom?
<jsgotangco> docteam meeting
<jsgotangco> you didnt get the email?
<enrico> In the list?
* enrico looks
<jsgotangco> yes
<enrico> jsgotangco: found
<enrico> that's good
<enrico> I don't believe one CC meeting can fix something that requires people from two different groups changing habit, but it's at least a start
<jsgotangco> well yeah at least both should have a compromise
<jsgotangco> now that froud's been pretty quiet, i think a dialogue is required more than ever
<jsgotangco> altough i am glad he updated the wiki page
<mdke> morning guys
<jsgotangco> mdke, hey
<mdke> hey jsgotangco 
<mdke> alright?
<jsgotangco> mm?
<mdke> as in, how's it going?
<jsgotangco> dude, i'm hooked on media wiki
<jsgotangco> hehe
<mdke> green tea and mediawiki
<mdke> a powerful combination
<mdke> Sean texted me back this morning
<jsgotangco> hmm is it good?
<mdke> he seems ok, he said that he'd had good conversations with mako and henrik
<mdke> and that he would try and help us out if needed, but that his decision was to take a break from the team
<jsgotangco> ahhh i was expecting that
<jsgotangco> he told me he'd rather focus on fringe projects
<mdke> well if you have docbook questions I'm sure he won't mind answering them
<jsgotangco> yeah but that also means we'll have to work more
<mdke> well can do what we can
<mdke> well/we
<jsgotangco> we'll get there
<jsgotangco> heh
<mdke> you know how the forum has labels for users, like "Ubuntu developer" and stuff
<mdke> there's one which is "forum donator"
<mdke> :-(
<jsgotangco> hmmm
<jsgotangco> ranks suck
<mdke> so much
<mdke> but don't worry, you can buy one!
<jsgotangco> i rarely go to the forums
<jsgotangco> hah
<jsgotangco> backports is pretty big over there though
<mdke> yes
<jsgotangco> main, mediawiki is soo coooler than moin
<jsgotangco> skinning this looks difficult though
<jsgotangco> no wonder mediawiki powered wikis look the same
<ealden> *listens with great interest*
<jsgotangco> mdke, so much for the portal
<mdke> ?
<jsgotangco> the docteam portal project
<mdke> what about it?
<jsgotangco> are we going to pusue it?
<jsgotangco> i'd rather fix what's in svn for now
<jsgotangco> along with the wiki stuff to be ported
<mdke> well henrik has a good idea about this
<mdke> to separate out what people are doing
<jsgotangco> good thing henrik is diving in
<mdke> group 1. works on the existing methodology and svn and such
<mdke> group 2. pursues new technologies
<mdke> yeah henrik is cool
<mdke> naturally that idea doesn't stop people from doing things in both groups
<jsgotangco> true
<jsgotangco> "2 cultures"
<mdke> just focuses work a bit more, and prevents the current work from getting slowed down
<mdke> the 2 cultures thing refers to the divide between science and humanities
<mdke> in this case, i think he meant science (devel) and humanities (doc)
<mdke> not sure if it works, but its an interesting idea
<jsgotangco> i thought i read devil
<jsgotangco> hehe
<mdke> hey do you have an ubuntu t-shirt
<mdke> i need an ubuntu t-shirt
<jsgotangco> did you ask henrik?
<jsgotangco> i have 2
<jsgotangco> or probably claire
<mdke> who is claire?
<jsgotangco> claire puts order in mark's life in Uk
<jsgotangco> email her
<jsgotangco> claire@canonical.com
<mdke> right
<jsgotangco> you're in london right
<mdke> i am
<mdke> simira was going to start an ubuntu shop
<mdke> i wonder if she got anywhere with that
<jsgotangco> hmmm
<jsgotangco> cafepress?
<jsgotangco> we have brown shirts
<jsgotangco> mdke, were you able to read thart article on sabdfl that was sent in sounder
<mdke> erm
<mdke> i'm not subscribed
<jsgotangco> where is that
<jsgotangco> hrmm
<jsgotangco> http://free.financialmail.co.za/05/0603/cover/coverstory.htm
<mdke> thanks
<mdke> "By 2010," Shuttleworth predicts, "Linux will have displaced proprietary software on the desktop."
<mdke> *grins*
<mdke> whatever
<mdke> south kensington eh
<jsgotangco> wonder when would be the time i can go to space
<mdke> ok i'll see y'all later
<ealden> Bye mdke 
<jsgotangco> later
<mdke> *grins*
<mdke> a gnome bug closed in less than 10 minutes
<mdke> http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=307013
<mdke> dunno where they got their reputation for not listening to users from
* mdke grumbles
<ealden> Bitter LOL :) 
<mdke> *grins*
<mdke> i'm not letting it go..
<ealden> Oh
<jjesse> ?
<mdke> ;)
<ealden> Hehe
<mdke> ealden, i've filed another bug with an alternative solution
<mdke> #307019
<ealden> Checking...
<ealden> mdke, you aren't using Nautilus in spatial mode?
<mdke> no
<ealden> I see...
<ealden> Nice find
<mdke> a guy on #ubuntu-it did it
<ealden> Oh
<mdke> i'm just passing on ideas
<ealden> Hehe
<mdke> we need multilingual bugzilla
<ealden> Yes
<ealden> I just realized that I have never used the Notes feature heh
<mdke> me neither until today
<mdke> its awesome tho
<ealden> Hey this is cool!
<ealden> A big notes emblem appeared!
<ealden> Wow!
<ealden> Are notes preserved across computers?
<mdke> no they are saved locally to nautilus i think
<ealden> mdke, yeah, I tried hehe
<ealden> mdke, makes sense for it to be local only though
<SquishyWaffle> gooood morning #ubuntu-doc
<mdke> morning SquishyWaffle 
<SquishyWaffle> playing with the Gnome devs today? :)
<mdke> hmm
<mdke> who knows how to work with diffs in svn?
<mgalvin> mdke, this may help
<mgalvin> http://svnbook.red-bean.com/en/1.0/re09.html
<mdke> thanks
<mgalvin> np
<mdke> i am looking at a diff already, and want to figure out how to apply some, not all of it in svn
<mdke> should I manually edit the diff?
<SquishyWaffle> don't you patch your local copy then commit it?
<mgalvin> yes, you want to patch what you have with the diff, man patch
<mdke> yes
<mgalvin> i am not sure if you can apply just part of a diff
<mdke> hmm
<SquishyWaffle> you can with some manual edits :)
<mdke> i'll try just deleting the part i don't like
<SquishyWaffle> yeah, that's your best met
<SquishyWaffle> be
<SquishyWaffle> bet, crap I can't spell today
<SquishyWaffle> are you patching one of the KDE guides or am I safe to start tinkering?
<mdke> yeah i am
<mdke> gimme a bit
<mdke> you can tinker anyway
<SquishyWaffle> ok, I'll see if I can get the Kynaptic doc to parse
<mdke> does it not parse?
<SquishyWaffle> not for us KDE guys
<mdke> we have a validate script that checks the xml
<SquishyWaffle> well it parses but it's a huge blob of unbroken text
<mdke> you can use it to check the xml ./validate.sh
<SquishyWaffle> there's something seriously wrong with it :(
<SquishyWaffle> gtaylor@gislinux1:~/ubuntu-doc/kde/kynaptic/C$ yelp kynaptic.xml
<SquishyWaffle> I/O warning : failed to load external entity "/home/gtaylor/.gnome2/yelp-bookmarks.xbel"
<SquishyWaffle> /bin/sh: /usr/bin/esd: No such file or directory
<mdke> thats because you're not using gnome i presume
<SquishyWaffle> yeah, but it's a KDE guide
<mdke> but if the xml is valid, that's all you can do
<mdke> SquishyWaffle, yelp is for gnome
<SquishyWaffle> but is there any other way to read it other than yelp from KDE?
<mdke> create an html out of it
<SquishyWaffle> argh
<mdke> applying parts of a patch is hard
<mdke> i can't be bothered
<mdke> ok
<mdke> controversial question about how to spell vice-versa
<mdke> we have vise-verse vis-a-verse
<SquishyWaffle> I hear vice-versa a lot more
<mdke> yeah that's the correct one i'm sure
* mdke edits the patch
<SquishyWaffle> Which one of you were working on the Style Guide?
<mdke> jeff-away
<SquishyWaffle> ok
<SquishyWaffle> in the StyleGuide, there's a section called 'Document Structure'. Should I put the list of tags there or create another section, keeping in mind that as per his layout, each section = 1 additional file.
<mdke> is this on the wiki or in svn?
<SquishyWaffle> the svn Style Guide
<mdke> hmm
<mdke> maybe separate doc? Probably best to ask jeff tho
<SquishyWaffle> document structure could be many things in my mind
<SquishyWaffle> yeah, any idea when he's usually around?
<mdke> you've made an xml version of the wiki page?
<mdke> SquishyWaffle, not sure when he's around
<SquishyWaffle> I'm about to
<SquishyWaffle> As per his request
<mdke> SquishyWaffle, if you like you can consider testing our wiki->docbook script which mvirkkil wrote
<SquishyWaffle> where is this located?
<mdke> ubuntu-docs/teamstuff/moin2db
<mdke> there's a readme
<SquishyWaffle> checking it out
<mvirkkil> I haven't heard anything regarding my svn access :(
<mdke> you mailed elmo?
<mdke> he's a busy guy
<mdke> i'll stress him
<mdke> mvirkkil, you mailed him your key?
<mvirkkil> mdke: Yeah, a while ago.
<mdke> what number is it?
<mvirkkil> mdke: number?
<mdke> your key
<mvirkkil> mdke: Ugh. I haven't got it here. I'm at work.
<mdke> i can't find it on the keyservers
<mdke> ok we'll see if elmo can find it
<mvirkkil> mdke: What keyserver should I submit it to? (ie. preferred?)
<mdke> they all sync each other
<mdke> but you don't have to upload it, its up to you
<mdke> mvirkkil, have you got updates for that script?
<mvirkkil> mdke: I haven't uploaded it, since I figured no one would need to use it. 
<mdke> fair enough
<mvirkkil> mdke: I was thinking on working on it a bit tonight.
<mdke> ok we'll get you added
<mvirkkil> mdke: Thanks :)
<mdke> no one called mikko has a gpg key on the keyservers
<mdke> must be a rare name
<mvirkkil> mdke: One of the most common first names for boys in finland.
<mdke> bizarre
<mvirkkil> mdke: Might even be the most common.
<mdke> gpg: key "mikko" not found on keyserver
<mdke> mvirkkil, ok looks good
<mvirkkil> mdke: Thanks :) Has anyone fixed stuff there? Any suggestions what to fix first? 
<mdke> on the script?
<mdke> not a clue
<mdke> but SquishyWaffle is about to test it :D
<mvirkkil> mdke: On his own server?
<mdke> no he's gonna try converting a wiki page to a docbook file
<mvirkkil> mdke: What wiki is he using?
<mdke> ours
<mvirkkil> mdke: url?
<SquishyWaffle> Oh, I have to install the actual Wiki software to use it?
<mdke> DocteamDocBookTags
<mdke> i didn't realise that ;)
<mvirkkil> SquishyWaffle: It's an output formatter for the moin wiki. It's integrated to the wiki itself, and is used directly
<mvirkkil> mdke: The documentation should say that...
<mdke> possibly
<mdke> i've not seen the script yet
<mvirkkil> Remember that you need to have the latest version
<mdke> i thought it would convert files with moin tho
<mvirkkil> >(moin--main--1.3--patch-725 was my version) to be able to use it.
* SquishyWaffle saw that and began to wonder :)
<mdke> so mvirkkil we need to install a wikiserver to use it?
<mvirkkil> SquishyWaffle: We discussed the way to implement it with Henrik Omma and concluded that this would be the most elegant/longlived approach.
<mdke> is it implemented in the test wiki?
<mvirkkil> I've talked to moin developers, and it should be pretty easy to get it pused to upstream
<SquishyWaffle> that'd be nice
<mdke> yeah
<SquishyWaffle> and the test wiki is going live tuesday?
<mvirkkil> mdke: I've only tested it with my own wiki, directly from the tla repository.
<mdke> right
<mdke> so it may not work with the new moin wiki?
<mvirkkil> The moin devs fixed several bugs as I was coding and pointing them out to them.
<mdke> ok
<mvirkkil> What's the url to the web interface to the svn?
<mdke> https://docteam.ubuntu.com/repos/trunk
<mdke> mvirkkil, so sounds like the best thing is to get the thing in upstream
<mdke> is there any way that the docteam can use it for converting Ubuntu wiki pages to docbook documents? 
<mvirkkil> mdke: https://docteam.ubuntu.com/repos/trunk/teamstuff/moin2db/manual
<mdke> i see it
<mvirkkil> mdke: you need to drop the attached file in the MoinMoin/formatter directory. Then the output can be accessed by
<mvirkkil> adding "?action=format&mimetype=xml/docbook" to the url.
<mdke> mvirkkil, but if i understood correctly, that only works with the latest version of moin, it may be that the Ubuntu wiki will not use that version?
<mvirkkil> But you do need the newest version of moin. Basically it couldn't be easier to 'convert' them to docbook, since it's done automagically by appending that to the url :)
<mdke> yeah that's really cool
<mdke> well i hope it will work in the Ubuntu wiki
<mdke> we could try it on the test wiki maybe
<mdke> or am I missing something?
<mvirkkil> mdke: Well, basically you could temporarily copy all the data to a test server where you have the newest moin and do it there.
<mdke> yes
<mdke> it would be really cool to enable it in the ubuntu wiki tho
<mdke> maybe that's a long term goal
<mvirkkil> but I _know_ it will work poorly if the moin version is old, and backporting all the fixes would probably be a humongous pain...
<mdke> probably
<mdke> i mean the long term goal would be to get it in moin upstream, and upgrade the ubuntu wiki
<SquishyWaffle> shoot, the new Wiki is going to be outdated at the time of being brought in?
<mdke> SquishyWaffle, it will be using a stable version of the wiki software
<mdke> it's 1.3
<SquishyWaffle> The stable version is the one mvirkkil found the bugs in?
<mvirkkil> SquishyWaffle: Well, the new wiki is based on the 1.3 branch (I was told), so it shouldn't be much of a problem upgrading later.
* mdke nods
<SquishyWaffle> that's encouraging :/
<mvirkkil> SquishyWaffle: There are loads more. Custom formatters aren't used, so people output html directly instead of using the right channels.
<mvirkkil> And the macro architecture isn't that good, since it enables invalid markup.
<SquishyWaffle> Is MoinMoin relatively new or has it seen these issues much through its life-span?
<mvirkkil> Though the xml I produce will always be valid xml though. Not guaranteed to be valid docbook, unfortunately.
<mdke> well any time saving is good
<mvirkkil> SquishyWaffle: They have a nice spearation between parsers and formaters and stuff. It's much, much better than mediawiki in that regard.  
<mvirkkil> Unfortunately the way the formatter is interfaced isn't the best possible imho.
<mvirkkil> And the way macros call the formatter directly instead of going therough the parser makes the problem more visible.
<SquishyWaffle> fun stuff
<mvirkkil> The parser does a lot of sanity checking and makes sure that tags get closed when tehy should etc. Macros bypass that.
<mdke> i'm installing moin to have a play around
<mvirkkil> But it isn't really all that bad, and I was able to code that docbook formatter in 2 day I think :)
<SquishyWaffle> good deal
<mvirkkil> mdke: From tla?
<mdke> hmm
<mdke> tla?
<mvirkkil> mdke: It's like svn or cvs. tla is also known as bazaar.
<mvirkkil> sort of
<mdke> oh
<mvirkkil> http://moinmoin.wikiwikiweb.de/MoinDev/TlaGuide
<mdke> no i've just installed 1.3.3
<mdke> which was the unstable one with gentoo
<mdke> is that not recent enough?
<mvirkkil> mdke: It probably somewhat works with that. But as I mentioned, the moin guys fixed several bugs for me while I coded the docbook converter.
<mdke> hmm
<mdke> ok i'll just use this to play around
<mdke> because then i can remove it easier
<mvirkkil> Yeah, I had some pain in setting things up.
<mdke> its hard?
<SquishyWaffle> whoa, I think I just found a bug in Thunderbird
<mvirkkil> mdke: No, just new. 
<mvirkkil> mdke: Hadn'
<mvirkkil> mdke: And I did a custom setup, since I installed it as a user in to my own account, not to /var/www
<mdke> hmm
<mdke> god knows where mine is installed
<mvirkkil> mdke: /usr/share/doc/moin might help :)
<mdke> pah docs
<mvirkkil> mdke: Nice attitude :)
<Seveas> ...for #ubuntu-doc :)
<SquishyWaffle> To fix something like this https://bugzilla.ubuntu.com/show_bug.cgi?id=3353 I need to reply with a patch to that particular manpage, right?
<mdke> SquishyWaffle, guess so
<mdke> mvirkkil, looks like I'm going to have to read the docs afterall
<mdke> SquishyWaffle, now's your chance!"
<mdke> hi jeffsch 
<jeffsch> hello
<mdke> jeffsch, SquishyWaffle was wondering about whether/how his tags document could be integrated with the StyleGuide
<jeffsch> yes, I just finished with reading the scrollback
<jeffsch> he should add it anywhere he thinks is appropriate
<jeffsch> the outline I have put is not set in stone
<jeffsch> the styleguide oranization will probably get chaotic for a while, which is good
<jeffsch> SquishyWaffle: the "failed to load external entity /home/gtaylor/.gnome2/yelp-bookmarks.xbel error is no big deal
<jeffsch> SquishyWaffle: i get that error all the time
<jeffsch> SquishyWaffle: if yelp is not working for you, then it is some other problem
<mdke> i have to dash off
<mdke> sorry
<mdke> catch you later i hope
<jeffsch> np
<SquishyWaffle> jeffsch: I was just looking at the KDE style guide and perhaps it may be better to link there as it's much more complete than my little cheat sheet. You already have it down near the end of the book
<SquishyWaffle> I had to guess a lot of the tags from an example or two I found in the kde guides so mine not be entirely correct either.
<SquishyWaffle> mine might not be entirely correct :)
<jeffsch> don't worry about that. if it's there, we can work on it. if it's not there...
<jeffsch> we can start with what you did, then integrate the best of gnome and the best of kde
<jeffsch> and tailor it for our specific needs 
<SquishyWaffle> ok, I'll create a new section called: 'Syntax and Symbols'
<jeffsch> ok. the styleguide is still in early stages, and it's normal for it to be unstable right now
<jeffsch> it doesn't need to be stable until July 31 or thereabouts
<jeffsch> SquishyWaffle: thanks for your help! Is there more to come?
<SquishyWaffle> More to come being more tags?
<jeffsch> hehe. that, and more in general. I don't want to be the only one doing styleguide
<SquishyWaffle> I'd be glad to help but I need direction in some areas
<jeffsch> the more people the better. That way it will be a better document (I hope)
<SquishyWaffle> I'm not a huge grammer person, more of a aesthetics and flow person
<jeffsch> that's good. the guide needs that stuff too.
* SquishyWaffle plays with the inflatable air baggy Amazon.com puts in their boxes now :)
<jjesse> i love those little baggies
<jjesse> i call them emergency pillows :)
<SquishyWaffle> I'm waiting for one of my labmates to return so I can scare the mess out of her when I pop it
<jjesse> grin thats funny
<SquishyWaffle> hrm, I see the WIki doc on taking screenshots but not re-sizing them
#ubuntu-doc 2005-06-17
<mdke> at the meeting
<mdke> we need to establish a new process for when to grant svn access rights
<mdke> when/how
<mdke> hey judax 
<judax> Hui
<judax> err Hi
<mdke> *laughs*
<mdke> <-- matt
<mdke> nice to meet ya
<judax> nice to meet you too
<mdke> thanks for your patches
<judax> no problem, I have another on the way in a minute
<mdke> wicked
<judax> this time with content
<mdke> great stuff
<judax> also, beginning to work on the 'Connecting a Printer' section, but have a question
<judax> thx
<mdke> shoot
<mdke> if i can help, i will
<judax> I know we don't want to get to down and dirty in the quickguide on printer config, but I think it does need a screen or two
<mdke> basically, the quickguide should describe the various programs available in the menu i think
<judax> can I just send screens to the list? with the dir structure?
<mdke> hmm
<mdke> i guess they can be big?
<mdke> if they are >40k they won't get through to the list without moderation
<judax> screens now in kde images are bout 80k
<mdke> maybe either email to one of us individually, or leave em somewhere
<judax> ok, will do that
<judax> am I screwing anything up with the patches I sent; any advice?
<mdke> they were great
<mdke> i changed two things i think
<mdke> vise verse -> vice versa ;)
<judax> ok, I am far from a docbook expert, so..
<mdke> oh docbook wise they were great i think
<judax> ah
<judax> good
<mdke> one of the docs was a bit screwed
<mdke> not by you tho
<mdke> chapter two was missing or something
<judax> oh, ok
<judax> you ever used XMLMind XML editor?
<mdke> no
<mdke> good?
<mdke> i'm a bit of an xml beginner too btw
<judax> yeah, I think it is good, does gui docbook creation, but I have not used it to edit anything yet
<judax> don't trust it yet
<mdke> i might investigate
<mdke> sounds cool
<judax> yes, they have a free version which is pretty full featured
<judax> it is java based
<judax> but fairly responsive....once loaded :)
<judax> it displays our docs great
<judax> but there are some strange things I don't understand yet
<mdke> will check it tomorrow
<mdke> bookmarked
* Burgundavia hears the word java and cringes
<judax> it will complain about entities like &copyright and say if you edit the file it will replace it with the acutal referenced content
<judax> hehe
<mdke> Burgundavia, java gentoo MOIN GENTOO JAVA
<judax> but &publisher it loves and protects that, so I dont know what is happening but like I said, not an expert
<Burgundavia> mdke, huh?
<mdke> Burgundavia, just trying to make ya cringe
<Burgundavia> oh
<Burgundavia> you needed a windows in there too
<mdke> windows MW
<mdke> ME
<judax> just sent another patch to the list
<mdke> checking
<mdke> thanks man
<judax> np
<mdke> blooming hell
<mdke> the kquickguide doesn't validate
<mdke> nothing to do with your patch
<mdke> maybe the earlier patches i did? or was it not validating before?
<judax> sorry, phone call
<judax> yes I saw it didn't validate
<mdke> k
<mdke> was it never validating?
<judax> it is complaining about the listitems around the ulinks
<judax> I have been validating it, but I didn't want to touch that since it was prob in the patch a few days ago that modified those links
<mdke> as long as I haven't caused that
<mdke> make sure you bug jsgotango about it
<judax> I looked at those few lines and they looked ok, but I have not played with it too much
<mdke> ok committed your patch
<mdke> thanks a lot!
<mdke> ok i'm done
<mdke> bed time
<judax> sleep well
<judax> I will poke around that file and see if I can figure out why it is not validating
<jsgotangco> hmmm
<judax> hello
<jsgotangco> hello
<jsgotangco> ok now i am quite lost with these kquickguide patches
<jsgotangco> hrmm
<judax> it not validating was before all of my patches, but I believe I have fixed it not validating
<judax> I sent a patch that should make it happy not too long ago, hour maybe
<jsgotangco> Greg?
<jsgotangco> or Troy
<judax> yes
<jsgotangco> ok i will apply that patch after i finish this
<judax> ok, that should make it all better
<jsgotangco> i need to make a progress chart after that and even fix the references to the images
<judax> ok
<judax> if there is anything I can do to help, let me know
<jsgotangco> i have to make entitiy references to you contributors as well
<jsgotangco> once we complete this book, i'll recommend you guys for svn access
<judax> ok, thx
<jsgotangco> so make your gpg keys handy
<judax> where do the keys need to go?
<jsgotangco> elmo will use it to send your accounts
<judax> kk
<jsgotangco> ok patched
<judax> great, thx
<hornbeck> anyone around?
<jsgotangco> hey
<jsgotangco> wow
<hornbeck> hello
<jsgotangco> hows it going
<hornbeck> good
<jsgotangco> first time i saw you online
<jsgotangco> i am jerome
<hornbeck> does plovs or sivang come around anymore?
<hornbeck> I am John Hornbeck
<jsgotangco> sivang comes once in a while
<jsgotangco> plovs as well
<hornbeck> who leads this group now?
<jsgotangco> nobody really, but i'm organizing stuff
<hornbeck> I need a technical reviewer for a book I am writing about Ubuntu
<jsgotangco> hmm
<jsgotangco> sure
<hornbeck> whats you last name?
<jsgotangco> Gotangco
<hornbeck> where you from?
<jsgotangco> Manila, Philippines
<hornbeck> nice
<jsgotangco> we have 3 active people in svn at the moment, me, matthew east and Jeff Schering
<hornbeck> so, I am doing a book with Apress and they want a reviewer who is involved with the doc team
<hornbeck> man the whole original team is gone than
<jsgotangco> Sean just quit but he's helping in the sidelines
<hornbeck> ahh
<hornbeck> I still read the mailing list
<jsgotangco> Enrico comes around every now and then
<jsgotangco> yeah
<jsgotangco> it was a bit of a flame war a while back
<jsgotangco> but we're fixing that
<hornbeck> yeah, I left right when things started falling apart
<hornbeck> the original svn was in my house
<jsgotangco> yeah i was told about that
<hornbeck> oh really
<hornbeck> I figured I was forgotten
<jsgotangco> hah no not really
<jsgotangco> i just came in when the original crew is almost gone
<hornbeck> nice, at least you don't think I am a newbie writing a book
<jsgotangco> have you started writing it already?
<hornbeck> yeah, first three chapters are about done
<hornbeck> I already have everything in place
<hornbeck> it is being released through Apress 
<hornbeck> I think I said that already
<jsgotangco> that's nice would it come out in time for breezy?
<hornbeck> no, it is scheduled for January
<jsgotangco> whats the intended audience?
<hornbeck> beginning Linux
<hornbeck> Apress has a book "Beginning Suse: From Novice to Professional"
<hornbeck> I am writing "Beginning Ubuntu: From Novice to Professinal"
<jsgotangco> ah so its in that line
<hornbeck> yeah
<hornbeck> from install to setting it up
<hornbeck> using Firefox and OpenOffice
<hornbeck> Evolution
<hornbeck> simple stuff
<hornbeck> but someone has to check my work
<hornbeck> the pay  is 2.75 a page
<hornbeck> for the reviewer
<hornbeck> about a 500 page book
<jsgotangco> that's not so bad
<hornbeck> nope
<hornbeck> little of 1000 US dollars for reading a book and telling me what is technically wrong
<jsgotangco> what's the timetable
<hornbeck> read chapters right when I am done with them
<jsgotangco> you just need 1 reviewer?
<hornbeck> so from now until December 27th
<hornbeck> yes 1 reviewer
<hornbeck> some one reliable
<hornbeck> I was hoping for plovs as I know him well
<jsgotangco> i'm quite free for a while, but i will also inform the other active people involved at the moment
<hornbeck> if anyone is really interested have them email me
<jsgotangco> i'm interested
<hornbeck> you should still be able to find a email in the doc list
<jsgotangco> i just want to inform the others
<hornbeck> ok, send me a short resume
<jsgotangco> yeah no sweat
<hornbeck> since I don't really know you I at least need to find out about you :-)
<jsgotangco> no problem
<hornbeck> hornbeck@gmail.com
<jsgotangco> its given
<hornbeck> well I am off to write some more
<hornbeck> later
<jsgotangco> ok see ya
<jsgotangco> brb
<jsgotangco> Burgundavia: hello
<Burgundavia> salut
<jsgotangco> did you work with hornbeck?
<Burgundavia> some
<jsgotangco> he was here a while ago, it seems he's writing a book for apress
<Burgundavia> cool
<Burgundavia> what on?
<jsgotangco> Ubuntu
<jsgotangco> beginners level i think
<jsgotangco> he was looking for plovs to offer hime a technical review job but he's inviting anyone insterested
<jsgotangco> he says the rate is 2.75/page for a 500 page book
<jsgotangco> but said he only needs 1 reviewer from the docteam
<Burgundavia> cool, I might be interested
<jsgotangco> me too, its best you contact him though as i would later
<jsgotangco> ok brb
<jsgotangco> jdub, will you join the meeting next week?
<jdub> sure!
<jsgotangco> okay
<jsgotangco> wow Burgundavia is in p.u.c!
<kassetra> *snicker*
<Burgundavia> guess I need a hackergotchi thingy eh?
<kassetra> LOL
<kassetra> I want my own hackergotchi to love and feed and pet and play with too!
<kassetra> Oh wait, that's a tamagotchi...
<Burgundavia> rofl
<jsgotangco> Burgundavia: are you still interested in docs or would rather do UI now?
<Burgundavia> I still think about docs
<Burgundavia> I just don't write very much
<jsgotangco> because of the svn account?
<Burgundavia> yah
<Burgundavia> I am getting my key signed next tuesday
<Burgundavia> which should prompt me into doing the whole thing again
<jsgotangco> right patches can be a chore
<kassetra> Burgundavia: are you on the west coast or east coast?
<Burgundavia> kassetra, west coast
<Burgundavia> can
<Burgundavia> 't go much farther west
<kassetra> Washington?  Oregon?
<Burgundavia> I live right here
<Burgundavia> http://maps.google.ca/maps?q=bethune&sll=48.450684,-123.367131&sspn=0.020752,0.039312&hl=en
<Burgundavia> at the A
<jsgotangco> ?
<Burgundavia> zoom out to see more
<jsgotangco> im surprised you are still awake
<Burgundavia> of course
<Burgundavia> my sleep schedule is throughly messed
<mdke> morn
<Burgundavia> morn
<mdke> y0
<mdke> good work today jsgotangco 
<jsgotangco> can i have a cookie
<jsgotangco> mdke: can i make a request
* kassetra gives jsgotangco a cookie.
<jsgotangco> nice
<mdke> jsgotangco, sure wassup?
<mdke> did i do something wrong?
<jsgotangco> mdke: if you don't mind, i'd like to do the patches of kquickguide for now, its almost done already
<jsgotangco> no no
<jsgotangco> i just got confused with my versions
<jsgotangco> hehe
<mdke> ok
<jsgotangco> i just slept for a few hours and when i woke up, it had 3 patches already, which is good
<mdke> they were mostly just corrections yesterday
<jsgotangco> yeah
<jsgotangco> but its getting done!
<jsgotangco> which is good!
<mdke> but i would prefer it if you wanna commit kde patches
<jsgotangco> no just for the meantime
<jsgotangco> they were enthusiastic about it
<mdke> yep
<mdke> they need commit access asap imho
<jsgotangco> let's make them finish the book first
<jsgotangco> its almost done anyway
<mdke> ok, if you're happy to check their patches ;)
<jsgotangco> hmm
<jsgotangco> yeah i'll check their patches
<jsgotangco> btw
<jsgotangco> horbeck went in today
<jsgotangco> hornbeck
<jsgotangco> it seems he's writing a book for APress
<mdke> "went in"?
<jsgotangco> online
<mdke> ah
<jsgotangco> "he went online and came in this room"
<jsgotangco> anyway
<jsgotangco> he was looking for plovs
<jsgotangco> or any current team member
<jsgotangco> he said he needs a technical reviewer
<jsgotangco> for the book
<jsgotangco> because APress wanted someone from the current docteam
<mdke> i c
<jsgotangco> but only 1 guy
<mdke> Burgundavia, to reply to your post "Re: User guide", i think the answer is no.
<mdke> jsgotangco, right
<mdke> jsgotangco, was anyone up for it?
<jsgotangco> he said its $2.75 per page for 500 pages
<jsgotangco> i said i was interested, but i told him as well that i will inform the others for fair play
<Burgundavia> hmm
<Burgundavia> damn
* Burgundavia has little interest in doing it
<jsgotangco> why not?
<Burgundavia> I hate our wiki
<Burgundavia> and uploading pictures to it is a pain
<jsgotangco> what does it have to do with our current discussion?
<mdke> Burgundavia, its a lot of work converting that to the wiki
<mdke> jsgotangco, we're having 2 discussions
<jsgotangco> ahh
<jsgotangco> let me check that
* Burgundavia is the one that is up at 2:31 am
<jsgotangco> oh i see
<jsgotangco> no
<jsgotangco> heh
<mdke> jsgotangco, is a technical reviewer supposed to be an expert in linux, or an expert in english? i guess the former, but i'm not sure
<kassetra> mdke: typically, both.
<jsgotangco> well its a beginner's book i guess hornbeck and APress wants someone authoritative to review per chapter
<mdke> right
<jsgotangco> at least with regards to docs, we're the authority at the moment
<kassetra> you could also just have one person per chapter to review it - in order to keep from burning a single person out.
<mdke> in what way?
<jsgotangco> ubuntu docs
<jsgotangco> i mean
<mdke> we're a volunteer group
<jsgotangco> true
<jsgotangco> but our work is the one published
* jsgotangco wonders if APress is the publisher that froud and sivang was talking about
<mdke> well i don't feel we have greater expertise than a lot of people, but no reason why you shouldn't get involved if you like
<jsgotangco> mdke: i doubt my capability as well, that's why i tell it to erveryone who comes in because i was the only guy that hornbeck got to catch
<mdke> i'm not doubting you!
<jsgotangco> while the money is good IMO, i'm interested more in the experience
<jsgotangco> (its not like you're going to do it for 8 hours a day)
<mdke> true
<jsgotangco> froud has taught me a lot for sure
<jsgotangco> anyway is anyone familiar with svn on deleting files
<mdke> svn delete
<jsgotangco> umm
<jsgotangco> i know that
<jsgotangco> heh
<mdke> or del rm etc
<jsgotangco> i mean
<jsgotangco> i seem to still have it somewhere in my svn
<jsgotangco> (the files)
<jsgotangco> did you svn up already?
<mdke> no
<jsgotangco> does svn delete also involve deleting the files which i did in working copy?
<mdke> i don't get ya
<mdke> you just do svn delete filename
<jsgotangco> well i did delete the files
<mdke> then do svn status, you'll see what's happened
<jsgotangco> yes its says D
<mdke> ok
<jsgotangco> does that mean its also deleted in trunk?
<jsgotangco> not jsut from my working copy?
<mdke> when you commit
<mdke> D  kde/images/C/kubuntu-kinfocenter.png
<mdke> D  kde/images/C/kubuntu-ksysguard.png
<jsgotangco> hmm i am too reliant on esvn
<mdke> D  kde/images/C/kubuntu-kcron.png
<jsgotangco> ?
<jsgotangco> nooooo
<jsgotangco> not those
<mdke> those are some that have been deleted and replaced with new ones
<mdke> i'm just doing svn up
<jsgotangco> ahh
<jsgotangco> i deleted those starting with kde-*
<jsgotangco> and replaced them with kubuntu_*
<jsgotangco> kubuntu-*
<jsgotangco> mdke: shouldn't we change the &distro-version; to 5.10 now?
<mdke> sure
<mdke> are you running breezy now?
<mdke> how is it?
<Burgundavia> nautilus doesn't work right now
<jsgotangco> yeah
<Burgundavia> otherwise is fine
<mdke> have they released colony 2 yet?
<jsgotangco> not yet
<jsgotangco> that would be nice on a laptop
<jsgotangco> heh
<mdke> yeah
* mdke hopes for a laptop
<jsgotangco> mdke: in other news, Burgundavia is now in planet
<mdke> cool
<mdke> my key still isn't properly signed
<Burgundavia> nor is mine
<jsgotangco> it doesn't connect
<mdke> oh
<mdke> i thought you had to have a trusted key to be a member
* mdke goes looking for Burgundavia's posts
<mdke> oh planet has a nice new interface
<Burgundavia> I am currently a member, but I haven't signed my CoC yet, due to my key not being trusted
<jsgotangco> you didnt sign keys in mataro?
<mdke> same here
<jsgotangco> oh right, that key was lost
* Burgundavia curses
<mdke> but iirc membership requires the signed CoC
<mdke> oh well
<mdke> anyway cool that you're in planet
<jsgotangco> i signed my CoC but i don't see any difference to what i do now
<Burgundavia> the conversation was quite funny
<Burgundavia> I told jdub about a crazy idea
<Burgundavia> and then he told me to blog about it
<Burgundavia> so I created a blog and did
<mdke> then he resolved it ;)
<mdke> i need to get my key trusted :/
<mdke> henrik signed it, but it seems his isn't either ;)
<jsgotangco> heh
<Burgundavia> going to my lug this tuesday
<Burgundavia> I hope to get my key signed by lots
<mdke> cool
<jsgotangco> hmm i think my key is signed by 70 people, most of them from UDU
<jsgotangco> other than that, nada
<mdke> well your key is trusted for sure
<Burgundavia> but UDU basically plugs you directly into Gnome and Debian
<jsgotangco> i still don't understand the trusted paths
<jsgotangco> dholbach signed my key twice
<mdke> omg
<jsgotangco> ?
<mdke> i just did a --refresh-keys
<jsgotangco> and?
<mdke> got this: http://pastebin.ca/13882
* Burgundavia doesn't really understand gpg yet
<jsgotangco> mdke: well it means those keys are not in that keyserver, why dont you try another like pgp.mit.edu
<mdke> jsgotangco, all keyservers synch with eachother
* jsgotangco wonders what's with the huge kubuntu update
<mdke> must be a dud keyserver
<Burgundavia> jsgotangco, kde ships everything as large source packages
<jsgotangco> most likely
<mdke> i just use that one because its port:80
<jsgotangco> for some reason i'm beginning to like kde again
<mdke> i have a lot of problems with hkp://
<mdke> stuff just times out
<jsgotangco> are you using enigmail?
<mdke> no
<mdke> i use gnupg
<mdke> :p
<jsgotangco> ahh you like it hard
<mdke> not really
<jsgotangco> hmmm
<jsgotangco> openssh-server in kubuntu update?
<jsgotangco> ok i'll just see what's new here
<mdke> wb
<jsgotangco> mdke, what did you text froud?
<mdke> was a couple of days ago
<mdke> i said something like, sorry to hear, i'll be online today if you wanna chat
<mdke> why?
<jsgotangco> oh nothing we had a long chat about it actually
<mdke> about my text?
<jsgotangco> no
<mdke> phew
<jsgotangco> i think before you texted him
<jsgotangco> heh
<jsgotangco> he went online for a short while
<jsgotangco> and we chatted and he left
<mdke> ok
<jsgotangco> i wonder if he still checks out svn
<mdke> ask him
<jsgotangco> i dont know his number
<jsgotangco> i even lost yours
<jsgotangco> give it to me in pm
* jsgotangco nokia phone is breaking up
<mdke> home/mobile?
<jsgotangco> mobile, i use GSM
<mdke> 07855594902
<mdke> oh sorry
<mdke> +44 7855594902
<jsgotangco> ok got it
<jsgotangco> how about froud?
<jsgotangco> ok thanks
<jsgotangco> acck my phone is falling apart
<mdke> *grins*
<jsgotangco> i should save for a new phone
<jsgotangco> i still use this brick
<mdke> mine is a bit brick like too
<mdke> i'm just thinking about this hornbeck business
<mdke> i might be interested in helping out
<mdke> but I'm not a linux expert
<mdke> i've done some linguistic editing in the past
<jsgotangco> hmm
<jsgotangco> we could do that both and split stuff
<jsgotangco> i guess
<jsgotangco> what is there to lose anyway
<jsgotangco> mdke, well i gotta go ill try to go online this weekend just in case
<mdke> whoops
<jjesse> i forgot how does one get commit access to svn?
<mdke> jjesse, we don't have a system right now
<mdke> we'll discuss it at the meeting
<mdke> the idea is, once people do some patches, they'll get access
<jjesse> ok
<jjesse> morning enrico
<enrico> hi
<mdke> jjesse, good work on the patch, when jsgotango is up he'll commit it :)
<jjesse> thanks mdke
<SquishyWaffle> where was that docteam agenda on the wiki for the upcoming meeting?
<mdke> DocteamNextIrcMeeting or something similar
<SquishyWaffle> ah, found it
#ubuntu-doc 2005-06-18
<SquishyWaffle> boing
<judax> Hi
<judax> mkde: just submitted a new kquickguide patch to the list
<judax> and sent you and Jerome 6 screens, hope you don't pay by the bit (400K)
<judax> going to take a little break, bbl
<mkde> judax, ping
<mkde> judax, can't stay long so leaving a message. Jerome said that he'd do the kquickguide patches right now, so I'm gonna leave it to him
<mkde> judax, great work, and hopefully he'll apply them this weekend, but if not, monday
<mkde> thanks
<mkde> -> afk
<jsgotangco> greets
<judax> sent a patch for the Kynaptic book to the list
<judax> gotta run out for awhile, so afk
* judax is away: Away at the moment
* judax_away is back.
* judax is away: Away at the moment
<Burgundavia> judax, please turn off your away messages
#ubuntu-doc 2005-06-19
<kassetra> hmmm.  what wiki software is the main site running?
<kassetra> oh duh,  nm.
<froud> Burgundavia: ping
<froud> whose administrating the mailing list
<froud> there are messages waiting approval for a few days
<froud> please release them or delete them
<froud> thanks
* #ubuntu-doc  [freenode-info]  why register and identify?  your IRC nick is how people know you.  http://freenode.net/faq.shtml#nicksetup
#ubuntu-doc 2006-06-12
<Madpilot> hi all
<nixternal> hey Madpilot
<Madpilot> hi nix
<nixternal> so whats new in the docs world tonight?
<Madpilot> not much. 
<Madpilot> I had a great seafood dinner earlier, though :)
<nixternal> sounds good..i had steak on the grill and bunch of other stuff on the grill
<nixternal> and some hacker pschors
<nixternal> mmm mmm good
<Madpilot> we had shrimp & avocado, then raw oysters, then crab... excellent stuff
<nixternal> oh ya..that definately sound good
<nixternal> mmm crab
<nixternal> i used to catch them fresh daily when i lived in maryland
<Madpilot> file under CategoryCrackSmoking: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/OnlyOneGnomePanel 
<Madpilot> ;)
* Kamping_Kaiser reads top 4 lines of page and remembers the post he made to gnome usability on the subject
<matthewrevell> Does anyone have a link to sign up to the Fridge editors mailing list?
<mdke> matthewrevell: it's not a public mailing list, you can't sign up at the moment
<matthewrevell> mdke: I was on it when it first launched but unsubscribed while I was moving mail accounts. Just trying to resubscribe :)
<matthewrevell> Anyway, found it now :)
<mdke> eh?
<mdke> are you sure it's public?
<mdke> it has been made pretty clear that it isn't
<matthewrevell> I'm not saying it's public, I'm just saying that Jdub put me on the list when it launched.
<matthewrevell> And all I wanted to do was resubscribe.
<mdke> ah, I see
<matthewrevell> Anyway, I'm back on it now, so no sorted :)
<mdke> well, if you can subscribe without approval, that means it's public, right?
<matthewrevell> According to the mail I got, my subscription is subject to approval, so I'm pretty certain it remains private.
<mdke> ah, ic
* matthewrevell lunch
<mdke> good plan
<Kamping_Kaiser> jenda, ping?
<jenda> Kamping_Kaiser: ploink
<Kamping_Kaiser> hope your not editing the page OneGnomePanel, becaouse im' about to...
<jenda> Kamping_Kaiser: I saw the number of comments and gave up...
<Kamping_Kaiser> heh. i'm just adding a few links to the bottom... cool.
<jenda> Kamping_Kaiser: If Ubuntu switches to one gnome panel, I'll switch to two Ubuntus or something :)
<Kamping_Kaiser> i hate the idea in general - i'm just going to link to the thread on gnome-usability about it, and my answer
<jenda> Exactly... umm... I suppose there's no point in further debating why 'windows does it' is no argument in my eyes...
<Kamping_Kaiser> jenda, http://mail.gnome.org/archives/usability/2006-May/msg00095.html was my responce to the list
<jenda> Kamping_Kaiser: I'll be sure to read it in a while... meeting now...
<Kamping_Kaiser> yep, np
<jsgotangco> good evening
<pygi> hey jsgotangco 
<jenda> Kamping_Kaiser: very agreed there.
<jenda> hey, what's the resource recommended by Ubuntu instead of the ubuntuguide.org? help.ubuntu.com?
<Kamping_Kaiser> :) i was having a lucid moment
<jjesse> jenda: yes
<Kamping_Kaiser> afaik yes
<jjesse> that is where the official documents are kept
<jenda> thx
<jenda> And... how's it with translations of that?
<jjesse> jenda: you'll have to ask mdke, but i think its like help.ubuntu.com/countrycode
<jjesse> for the translation that is available
<jenda> I see... and if i wanted to translate... I'd save the page, translate... then send to mdke, I guess?
<jenda> hmm... the hierarchic structure makes it a little more difficult.
<Kamping_Kaiser> jenda, thats rather ineligent. i would suspect theres a better way
* jenda would hape so...
<jenda> *hope
<Kamping_Kaiser> yeh
<jjesse> jenda: i think so, but don't know for sure, 
<jenda> Ah well... I guess it's wait-for-mdke time... ;)
<Kamping_Kaiser> :)
<mdke> jenda: http://help.ubuntu.com/index.cs.html
<jenda> mdke: thx
<matthewrevell> mpt: Hello
<jsgotangco> another matt!
<mpt> hey hey hey
<matthewrevell> :)
<mpt> There are rocking things happening with yelp
<jsgotangco> yes
* mpt hunts for the link
<mpt> http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=341797
<Ubugtu> Gnome bug 341797 in Search "Ignore stop words when generating search results" [Enhancement,New]  
<mpt> So for Edgy, I think it's quite feasible for the UDP to say "let's take the 50 most common searches on X and make sure they produce superb results"
<matthewrevell> Excellent.
<mpt> where X might be questions in the Ubuntu forums, or #ubuntu, or maybe even yelp itself
<matthewrevell> Planted search results, then?
<jsgotangco> nice!
<mpt> matthewrevell, not really, but hopefully an equivalent of <meta name="keywords">
<matthewrevell> Ah, I see. Sounds good.
<mdke> both for beagle and non-beagle searches?
<mpt> sure
<mpt> Will Edgy include Beagle?
<mdke> nice
<mdke> guess it might yeah
<mdke> the yelp search can be with or without
<mdke> without being rebuit
<mdke> so if you have beagle, it uses it, if not, it doesn't
<jsgotangco> would be nice if it can all be done in deskbar :/
<mpt> mdke, e.g., in that "Dapper" thing :-)
<mdke> mpt: hmm?
<mpt> mdke, yelp in Dapper has non-beagle search
<mdke> mpt: or beagle search, if you install beagle
<mpt> which I (think I) haven't
<mdke> right yeah
<mdke> I mean, yelp is built with beagle support
<mdke> so, here's a crazy idea.
<mpt> matthewrevell, thanks for pointing out my curmudgeonliness in public, I do need reminding every so often :-)
<matthewrevell> mpt: Oh, did I say something in response to your letter on LugRadio?
<mpt> well, one of you did
* mpt hasn't mastered the art of telling who is which yet
<matthewrevell> mpt: Ah yes, Stuart did :)
<mdke> matthewrevell: it's kinda difficult to know who is who
<matthewrevell> mpt: I'm not sure what he said, I was just astounded to hear him admit he was wrong :)
<mdke> we could ditch the yelp table of contents, and make our own. On the negative side, it would require us wholly abandoning all the categories and links to the documents provided. These would be counteracted by the fact that (a) the documents are available from About->Help in each individual program (except the man/info pages), and (b) you can get them via the search. On the plus side, it would mean that we could have a front page which is actually helpful
<mdke> discuss
* matthewrevell resolves to adopt a Scottish accent in future recordings :)
<mdke> the alternative would be waiting to see if upstream improves the categorisation system for 2.16
<matthewrevell> mdke: There's no half-way house, then?
<mdke> matthewrevell: no, I can't think of one
<jsgotangco> i don't see that changing very much soon
<matthewrevell> mdke: Sorry, I don't know the inner workings of yelp.
<jsgotangco> there's so much cruft on the docs 
<matthewrevell> I'll go read up on Yelp.
<mdke> jsgotangco: they are looking to improve things, but drastic change will need to wait until at least 2.18
<jsgotangco> 2.18 is good
<mdke> matthewrevell: a _female_ scottish accent, to distinguish you from whoever takes on the male scottish accent
<mdke> matthewrevell: I don't think there is much to read up on, tbh
<mpt> mdke, +1 on a custom front page
<matthewrevell> mdke: That's me, usually :)
<mdke> ok, someone else gets the girly voice
<matthewrevell> mdke: I have to admit that I've rarely used Yelp.
<mpt> Burying it in a menu unhelpfully called "System" doesn't help
<jsgotangco> i dont blame ya
* mdke nods at mpt
<mpt> And putting it alongside half a dozen other possible sources of answers to your question doesn't help either
<mpt> </rant>
* mdke nods again
<matthewrevell> This is a terrible admission to make in the ubuntu-doc channel
<matthewrevell> but the first thing I do on a new install is remove the lifering from the top bar
<mdke> matthewrevell: heh, that's why it was removed from default installs for 6.06
<jsgotangco> we don't have the lifering by default now
<mdke> shame though
<jsgotangco> we get 4 more in return though!
<jsgotangco> =D
<joachim-n> hi
<joachim-n> yelp search doesn't work for me in Dapper, by the way
<matthewrevell> Ach, gotta drive home, catch you all later
<mdke> joachim-n: works ok here. Did you file a bug?
<joachim-n> can you guys file bugs on the cruft? I'll see what I can do
<jsgotangco> works here too
<jsgotangco> sure
<joachim-n> not yet, actually. In Launchpad or gnome bugzilla though?
<mdke> joachim-n: it's not that, the problem is that the whole categorisation system sucks, as you know
<joachim-n> indeed
<mdke> joachim-n: either is fine. launchpad works
<joachim-n> I had a thought about yelp -- I'd really like it to automagically merge our desktop guide with the Ubuntu one
<joachim-n> since they don't have much overlap
<jsgotangco> is it more with scrollkepper rather than yelp making the categorisation suck?
<joachim-n> & I think the long-term to go to smaller documents would help with that
<mdke> how could that happen automatically?
<joachim-n> yeah, a lot of it is scrollkeeper
<joachim-n> well, instead of a massive user guide document, you have many small topics, each a single file
<joachim-n> a contents page becomes a list of links to lots of topics
<joachim-n> and yelp magically should know how to navigate you based on that
<joachim-n> (this is all pie in the sky stuff)
<mdke> right, but the desktop guide would still have to link to the upstream topics, it can't happen automatically
<joachim-n> then Ubuntu docs could create a contents page that picks out the GNOME topics, and also yours
<mdke> the reason we don't link to the upstream topics right now is that the desktop guide gets published outside the help system
<joachim-n> yeah... I want to find a way to do that :)
<mdke> on the website etc
<joachim-n> well, you can stick the upstream topics on your website :) they're GFDL after all
<mdke> that's true, but we'd need to patch them
<joachim-n> anyway, for all this to happen we have to hit Shaun with the Project Mallard stick
<mdke> no, not necessarily
<mdke> it can be done in the current system
<mdke> but it's a lot of work
<joachim-n> yeah
<mdke> and you guys would need to have a string freeze
<mdke> so that the patching, translating and integration work could happen after that
<jsgotangco> really i think its scrollkeeper that thing is reliable but so ancient with how things are indexed
<joachim-n> the integration should be automatic. all done with xml includes
<mpt> mdke, tell me about doing it with the current system
<mdke> well, the categories are certainly horrendous
<mpt> how would that work?
<mdke> mpt: well, say for the sake of argument we had  the desktop guide as the front page of yelp
<mdke> inside that the sections could easily link to the gnome user guide, as appropriate
<mdke> we'd have to add links, patch the gnome docs to make them work with the Ubuntu changes to stuff, and try and ensure that we could still have translation working nicely
<mpt> ah
<mpt> bbl, lunch
<jsgotangco> wow
<jsgotangco> that looks...hard
<mdke> well, adding the links is the easy bit
<jsgotangco> not to mention there are like a hundred more help pages that might not even relate to ubuntu-docs
<jsgotangco> like the scrollkeeper and zenity manual for instance
<mdke> I think the hardest bit would be getting everything on the website, especially for the translations
<mdke> jsgotangco: yeah, we'd have to ditch them entirely, leaving them available only from search
<jsgotangco> the nice thing is that we have updated a11y documentation as well from upstream
<jsgotangco> (or is it updated i wonder)
<mdke> yes, that is nice. Although not inconsistent with what I was talking about, that could be linked
<mdke> mpt: ideally in fact rather than having the desktop guide as the front page, we'd create our own index document(s) pointing to non-overlapping stuff
<mdke> one day, that could potentially be identical to the wiki index page. But that will depend on (a) good processes for QA of community docs, and (b) the moin<->docbook cleverness
<mdke> mpt: the other thing of course is that we would probably have to kick into touch the idea of developing a printable book, or alternatively maintain both systems at the same time
<mpt> mdke, sure, on-screen help and books are very different things
<mpt> different paragraph styles, different structure
<mdke> mpt: yes, Im not sure the team would be happy with giving up writing printable guides though
<LaserJock> :'(
<mpt> Not to discourage anyone from writing a book if they want to do that, but anyone can do that at any time, whereas Ubuntu should only ever have a single help system
<mpt> If you want to write books go to town, write as many as you want
<mdke> we might be able to do both, we'll have to think about it
<mdke> bbl
<LaserJock> well, in the case of the Packaging Guide there were several people who wanted a print copy of the Guide, not necessarily a book, it you know what I mean
<jjesse> printed copies would be through lulu
<jjesse> ] correct?
<LaserJock> I'm not sure what mdke and mpt are kicking around (just skimmed the backlog) but we have all the guides on lulu.com now
<jjesse> yeah i couldn't figure it out either.... but let me tell you getting a book pulbished is a long drawn out process
<jjesse> like i just got an email that the kubuntu chapter for the book has its screenshots all messed up
<jjesse> again :(
<mdke> LaserJock: the packaging guide is the sort of thing that could easily remain in book form
<LaserJock> were you talking about merging upstream docs with the UG ?
<mdke> I'll write up a proposal, and we can talk about it when it's more obvious what it might look like
<mdke> LaserJock: more or less... 
<LaserJock> heh, seems like it would be pretty tough
<mdke> my idea would be to divide up our books and mix in the upstream docs
<jjesse> would that include doing the same for kubuntu docs?
<mdke> jjesse: in theory it would be doable for kubuntu docs, although I'm not convinced there are sufficient contributors to do something so ambitious
<jjesse> grin i agree there are not a lot of contribturos yet :)
<mdke> ok, so here would be a potential way to present the front page of yelp: http://pastebin.com/704741
<mdke> that has been done on the top of my head while on the train so obviously it is really rough
<mdke> brb
<mdke> mpt, LaserJock: I've started a braindump spec here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MatthewEast/HelpfulHelpVersionMinusOne
<jjesse> when did we discuss publishing books?  are these books different then the lulu.com ones?
<mdke> jjesse: by publishing books, I mean what we currently do
<mdke> i.e. publishing books in the distribution, on the website, and on lulu
<jjesse> ah i got a little confused
<mdke> i follow you
<mdke> I meant "book" in the docbook sense ;)
<jjesse> i thought of book as in go to barnes and noble and buy a book
<mdke> yeah
<mdke> or lulu.com :D
<mpt> mdke, remember https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuHelp/Contents ? :-)
<mdke> mpt: no, looking. Presumably it's similar?
<mpt> yep
* mdke goes to eat, and watch Italy
<mpt> ... sink slowly into the Mediterranean?
* mpt ducks
* mdke slaps
<LaserJock> hehe
* mdke slaps low
* LaserJock wanders off to look at a French embassy website that talks about all the crime in Paris ;-)
* mgalvin joins in on making *'s
<LaserJock> hehe
<mgalvin> :)
<LaserJock> I thought we weren't doing ubiquity documentation because it already had documentation
* mdke thought so too
<LaserJock> mdke: I like you layout idea
<LaserJock> I was just thinking that it might be better to get out of the "Guide" mentality a little bit
* mdke nods
<LaserJock> maybe a more holistic approach, which is what I think you did
<mpt> hooray
<LaserJock> hehe, what does mpt hate, "guide", "section", something else I think
<LaserJock> I think that layout would be a whole lot nicer for users
<mdke> me too
<LaserJock> I've been thinking about FAQs and the whole Q&A layout
<LaserJock> because I installed ubuntu on my laptop at home the other day in preperation for Paris
<mpt> LaserJock, "guide", "documentation", and "this section"
<LaserJock> ah documentation
* mdke likes documentation
<LaserJock> to be honest, I found the DG pretty unhelpful
<LaserJock> I know that I'm not the average user
<mpt> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-doc/2006-April/005889.html
<LaserJock> but it really didn't seem easy to find info when if I knew what I wanted to find
<LaserJock> it reads well for an intro to Ubuntu
<LaserJock> but it isn't terribly good as a "How do I ..."
<LaserJock> what I was thinking about was what if we added a FAQ ("Common Questions" maybe) that would like to the appropiate section in the other docs
<LaserJock> does that sound like a dumb idea?
<mdke> I'm not terribly keen on FAQs
<mdke> but i dunno
<LaserJock> I know you aren't :-)
<LaserJock> but I just gave up on DG and used the wiki
<LaserJock> and got a whole lot more useful info
<LaserJock> which was frustrating because I know how much work the DG was and that it is a well written doc
<mdke> could that be because the answer wasn't in the DG?
<mdke> or it was, but was hard to find?
<jjesse> for me the questions i need help on won't be found on the DG, but on the wiki
<jjesse> for example: How to install VMWare is not covered by the desktop guide and shouldn't be
<LaserJock> mdke: the problem is I don't know, there isn't a TOC, index or anythin
<LaserJock> jjesse: why shouldn't that be in the DG?
<mdke> LaserJock: well, there are, but they are not very deep. But I wanted to know whether the answer was in the DG at all
<jjesse> LaserJock: because if you add help entries for every single program into the DG then you will have a totally unmanagable book
<jjesse> DG should be for common problems and to be honest VMWare is not a common problem
<LaserJock> jjesse: makes sense, how do we know what *is* a common problem though?
<mdke> right, but moving to an article based system would mean that this sort of documentation could be included
<LaserJock> mdke: hmm, I can't remember what is was that I was looking for, but I think perhaps it wasn't in there
<LaserJock> mdke: the HTML is easier than yelp because you get 1 more level
<mdke> yes, that's right
<LaserJock> mdke: in yelp, for Common Tasks all I get is Music, Video, Internet, etc. but I have no idea what they cover
<LaserJock> so there isn't an easy way for me to see if the DG covers it or not, I suppose the search function might work, but that isn't doc specific is it?
<mdke> LaserJock: well, in that case the names are quite accurate indications, no?
<LaserJock> yes and no
<LaserJock> I don't want to have to read through all of the Music section to see what things are covered
<mdke> right yeah
<LaserJock> that's why I say it is a nice read
<LaserJock> but for somebody wan't to just "pop" into one particular section it is difficult
<LaserJock> that's where maybe a FAQ style thing that would then link to the right sections would be nice
<mdke> or, modularising the help system a lot more
<LaserJock> so you have the nice read for people who are new to Ubuntu/Linux and want to learn all this things
<LaserJock> yeah
<LaserJock> that would work too, except it is nice for new users to get the flow of the DG
<nixternal> what a nice day today
<jjesse> grin tell me about it, been hard to be at work all day :(
<nixternal> i actually for the first time in my life watched futbol, not the typical fall football im used to...and i actually got into it...my x-wife would be amazed
<nixternal> i mowed the lawn today, watered it, planted some new vegetables, flowers, laid down some new mulch
<nixternal> i love contracting ;)
<nixternal> oh...and every single one of my stocks are down today
<LaserJock> hmm
<LaserJock> I dug trenches for a new sprinkler system last night
<nixternal> i picked up some LEXR shares 5 minutes ago...now i hope they go up a little
<nixternal> LaserJock: i would love to do that..but here in the chicagoland area, my yard isn't big enough for that ;)
<LaserJock> ugg, I wish mine was small sometimes
<nixternal> hehe
<nixternal> trade ya
<LaserJock> I'm doing lawn on a 75'x30' section
<nixternal> i want to do some full blown landscaping, but the size of my yard, it would look retarded
<nixternal> thats about my entire property line
<nixternal> i think it might be time to get back to work full time...because day trading hasn't been nice to me lately
<nixternal> actually, it hasn't been really nice to me at all...i have friends who sit at home doing this stuff and are millionaires...i can't even make a freakin' dollar today
<mdke> matthewrevell: still around?
<Burgwork> LaserJock, you got mail!
<LaserJock> yep
<LaserJock> bah, I went to eat lucnch
<LaserJock> and read something interesting
<LaserJock> so I picked up a InfoWorld magazine that was in the lounge
<LaserJock> and read a story about "What would happen in Microsft vanished"
<LaserJock> the conclusion was:
<LaserJock> if MS didn't exist we would have to invent it
<LaserJock> becuase it is a standard (albeit a bad one)
<LaserJock> and it has better security response than Apple or Linux
<LaserJock> Burgwork: although he sent me a .deb :(
<Burgwork> LaserJock, noticed taht
<Burgwork> LaserJock, bitch at him
<LaserJock> Burgwork: "
<LaserJock> "I want tarballs, dammit"
<LaserJock> ;-)
* mdke slays LaserJock and Burgwork with the samurai sword of vengeance for insisting on carrying out their secrecy in public
* mgalvin thinks mdke has a * fetish today ;)
* mdke slays mgalvin too
<LaserJock> mdke: just a little while longer, and the torture will end
<mdke> it's not the secrecy, but the public secrecy that has caused me to get all samurai on yo ass
<LaserJock> yeah, but what's the fun of having a secret if nobody knows about it ;-)
<Burgwork> mdke, all about building excitment
<Burgwork> plus I am too lazy to /query
<mdke> yeah
<mdke> well, I slay lazy people too
* mdke falls on his sword
<Burgwork> indeed
<LaserJock> I *did* want to meet mdke in person, but now I'm not so sure
<LaserJock> at least I'll need to make sure his cutlery is safely put away
<mdke> heh
<mdke> robotgeek: just dealing with someone in #ubuntu-it who has used easy ubuntu and has a sources.list which contains 5.10, even though he was originally using 6.06. Unsurprisingly, his system is not in a good state
<mgalvin> ah crap, i just realized i didn't drop mdke's name with the lulu stuff in UWN
<Burgwork> LaserJock, not sure I would call a samurai sword cutlery myself
* mgalvin will have to pay homage to mdke's glory in another way
<LaserJock> mgalvin: tsk, tsk
* mgalvin hangs his head in shame
<mdke> next time
<mgalvin> indeed!
<mdke> mgalvin: oh wait, the lulu stuff was there?
<mgalvin> yea in issue 2
<mdke> oh right, who gives a damn then, nice
<mgalvin> at least i linked to your email about it
<mdke> you don't need to drop my name in, as long as Lulu is there, that's great
<LaserJock> but the MdkeIsAGod crowd might be bummed out ;-)
<mdke> my mum?
<mdke> she'll be fine
<LaserJock> not just mum
#ubuntu-doc 2006-06-13
<Madpilot> hi Burgundavia 
<nixternal> its past his bedtime ;)
<nixternal> whats up Madpilot
<Burgundavia> hey Madpilot
<Madpilot> not much
* Burgundavia has to pack for his trip tomorrow
<Madpilot> just watching the weather to see if I'm going to get a flight in tomorrow :)
<nixternal> what do you fly?
<Madpilot> tomorrow, a Cessna 172, weather permitting
<nixternal> nice
<Madpilot> I've got my Private Pilot's License
<nixternal> where ya plannin' on flyin' too?
<Burgundavia> I am flying to Ottawa, for work
<Madpilot> up the coast about 50nm - dropping some friends of the family off
<Madpilot> Burgundavia, CLA conf, right?
<Burgundavia> yep
<Madpilot> have fun. Don't let all those library types drink you under the table 
<nixternal> hahah
<Burgundavia> there is a pub crawl on Thursday. I intend to be on it
<Madpilot> Librarians & vendors on a bender
<Madpilot> don't wreck too much of downtown Ottawa, OK? ;)
<jsgotangco> hmm does anyone know the type of plug used in france
<Plug> Me!
<Plug> ;)
<Plug> It's a two-round pin European plug
<jsgotangco> heh
<Madpilot> jsgotangco, you going to Paris, then?
<jsgotangco> dunno yet will know later but im going to the electrical shop just in case
<Plug> (not the same as the UK)
<Plug> I assume there are four major types in the world
<Plug> as I have a three-pack that goes from NZ/AU/HK/Singapore etc to the other three.
<jsgotangco> that's weird its Type E with a ground pin
<Burgundavia> jsgotangco: two prong european
<jsgotangco> but a Type C will do
<Burgundavia> there is a great chart on Wikipedia
<Burgundavia> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domestic_AC_power_plugs_and_sockets
<jsgotangco> thanks i will add this to del.icio.us
<Plug> Mmmm, type I!
<Plug> I like what I know. :)
<Burgundavia> http://goran.fimaks.net/moin.cgi/LibraryGnomeOrgMockupFirst
<Burgundavia> mdke: ^
<jsgotangco> nice!
<Burgundavia> mdke: edubuntu people want to use latex for their cookbook
<jsgotangco> meh not "want" there was a suggestion
<crimsun_> s/want/are debating/
<Burgundavia> yes, I replied, saying their own svn repo and latex are nuts
<Burgundavia> in a more politic manner, of course
<ghee22> hi, anyone interested in welcome center?
<Burgundavia> hey ghee22
<ghee22> hey Burgundavia, there's been quite a lot of people with different ideas of what the welcome center should be
<ghee22> it's getting to be overwhelming.  that's why i split the project into 2.  the slightest consensus is that the welcome center should explain the very basics of ubuntu, which is already done in your doc files
<ghee22> Which leaves me with a confused look on my face.  Why can't people find the help files?  I'm not sure, i found them with no problem.  I don't see recreating them as a solution.
<Madpilot> ghee22, nobody ever reads the documentation, ever. This isn't just Ubuntu's problem. (...only half-joking...)
<Burgundavia> ghee22: no, content should stem from us, whether we write it or just vet community stuff is to be decided
<Burgundavia> ghee22: as for implementation, I really just don't see the place for yet another application
<ghee22> Burgundavia, is this sentence yours: I think all we need to do here is point the users to the documentation and other help, not rewrite it. (from the wiki content page)
<Burgundavia> no, but I agree with it
<Burgundavia> it is likely mdke
<ghee22> Perhaps the welcome center can highlight the help menu.  perhaps by showing users how to get there they will not "give up" looking for it.
<mdke> no, wasn't me
<mdke> ghee22: hi.
<Burgundavia> ghee22: yep. We have been considering a new start page for yelp, which might solve some of these issues
<ghee22> hi mdke
<Burgundavia> mdke: what is that brainstorm url again?
<mdke> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MatthewEast/HelpfulHelpVersionMinusOne
<mdke> ghee22: I have something I wanted to say to you
<mdke> ghee22: it's true that there have been a lot of people with different ideas about your project
<ghee22> mdke: i'm listening
<mdke> ghee22: don't forget however that it is _your_ project, and you and your mentor should lay out what you intend to do. Don't let individuals who randomly approach you and edit the wiki page take control
<mdke> that's my advice
<Burgundavia> indeed, I was thinking the same thing
<mdke> Burgundavia: so the cookbook authors aren't planning to work in our repository?
<Madpilot> does the newer version of MoinMoin have ACL?
<ghee22> mdke:  that is an excellent point.  unfortunately, my mentor is extremely busy.  hence i wander.  i want to work on the same vision i initially had but i encountered a lot of friction from this chat room, the very people that provide the core content i want to display.  it's very difficult, to find out, where to go from here
<Burgundavia> mdke: unclear
<mdke> Madpilot: the current version has it too, but it's not enabled on the wiki
<mdke> ghee22: I spoke to your mentor about it, he was keen to talk to you. Try and find him on irc (he's joined this channel)
<ghee22> mdke: excellent, thank you..  i am on it right now
<Burgundavia> sfllaw: welcome, didn't notice you
<mdke> ghee22: his timezone is UTC-4, or similar
<Burgundavia> mdke: that is correct
<Burgundavia> America/Montreal
<Burgundavia> damn, I am going to be within an hour or twos drive of sfllaw and I won't get to see him
<ghee22> mdke:  thanks all, i'll be on here from now on.. 
<Madpilot> Burgundavia, get him to come to Ottawa then - have an Ubuntu micro-conf. during CLA :)
<Burgundavia> Madpilot: right...
<Burgundavia> anyway, I have to sleep
<Burgundavia> night all
<robotgeek> mdke: weird, i am not sure if he used the correct version of the program.
<mdke> robotgeek: potentially an earlier version
<jsgotangco> hey!
<jsgotangco> mdke: i have a q
<robotgeek> mdke: nothing from easyubuntu.freecontrib.org will cause that problem
<mdke> robotgeek: anything linked on the forums?
<mdke> jsgotangco: shoot
<jsgotangco> mdke: how many languages there in italy
<jsgotangco> or is it just one "italian"
<jsgotangco> and the rest dialects (if they exist?)
<mdke> broadly, one official language. There are lots of dialects, which vary enormously, and a couple of them have recognition as separate languages, but the common language is italian
<robotgeek> mdke: all links from forums point to easyubuntu.freecontrib.org, there was sticky which pointed to the older version, but i got that fixed last week
<mdke> sardinian and friulian are the two which are considered separate languages in their own right, iirc
<robotgeek> mdke: plus, easyubuntu will fail if your sources.list doesnt match your system. safety feature
<mdke> jsgotangco: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friulian http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sardinian_language
<mdke> robotgeek: hmm, something went badly wrong in this case
<jsgotangco> mdke: but they have major elements that make up italian right?
<jsgotangco> say Sardinian is basically 80% italian or what
<mdke> jsgotangco: not really. vaguely related but I can't understand them at all
<mdke> nor can most italians
<jsgotangco> and does Sardinian/Friulian have their own ISO language codes?
<jsgotangco> ahhh
<mdke> yes, see those wiki pages
<jsgotangco> but there are translation efforts there?
<mdke> not that I am aware of
<mdke> maybe
<mdke> none of the other italian dialects have iso codes, I don't think
<jsgotangco> ok i have this problem atm here in our language
<mdke> yeah, I read about it on #lp
<jsgotangco> FIL is the official lang but TL consists of majority of FIL
<jsgotangco> but there are no FIL efforts since its relatively new
<jsgotangco> my evil solution is not approve the team at all because its only one person for now
<mdke> i think jordi will approve the team if the language has iso recognition
<mdke> did you contact the guy and invite him to contribute to tl? maybe its just a misunderstanding
<jsgotangco> im not so keen on that it'll just mix up future move to FIL when most of TL can be easily moved
<jsgotangco> he's not responding *yet*
<jsgotangco> and responded privately to jordi
<jsgotangco> with a *technical* reason rather than *practical*
<jsgotangco> hence i asked if there is some sort of situation in italy or something
<jsgotangco> i could completely understand Catalan
<jsgotangco> and Spanish situation
<jsgotangco> it is rather interesting really
<mdke> yeah
<jsgotangco> when Google was localised the same problem arose and there was no compromise because the arguments are academic instead of practical
<jsgotangco> my evil point of view is that the guy just became ecstatic seeing Kubuntu and the power to trnaslate and began translating a few days ago of short strings in dapper
<mdke> well, IMHO if everyone understands the same language, that should be the default fallback. If people want to translate dialects, they should be able to, but it should always fallback to the language everyone understands
<jsgotangco> well yes i was thinking of having FIL as fallback since it can be switched in the future
<jsgotangco> but i'll have to consult Debian-TL
<jsgotangco> well jordi didn't approve it yet that's why he send an email to me anyhow
<mgalvin> someone suggested renaming UWN to the "Ubuntu Weekly Newt"
<jsgotangco> brb
<jsgotangco> lol
<mgalvin> :)
<jsgotangco> good night
<jjesse> what is the link for web svn?
<LaserJock> Burgwork: boy, you might have opend a big can of Edubuntu worms :-)
<jjesse> mmmm worms
<jjesse> hwo so LaserJock?
<LaserJock> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/edubuntu-devel/2006-June/001555.html
* mgalvin shutters when seeing "vs." in the subject line
<LaserJock> hehe
<mgalvin> *sigh*
<mgalvin> :)
<LaserJock> I'm pretty sure they don't want to use the doc team repo
<jjesse> wow someone sure needed some coffee when he wrote the post :)
<LaserJock> yeah, mr. grumpy
<LaserJock> hi Madpilot 
<Madpilot> hi LaserJock 
<Madpilot> blasted weather - was supposed to go flying this morning :|
<LaserJock> bummer
<Madpilot> I was supposed to be flying some friends of the family over to the mainland - 30min flight, now they're in for a 4+hr bus & ferry ride...
<LaserJock> ughh
<Madpilot> living on an island has some drawbacks, sometimes :)
* LaserJock wouldn't know, he has always lived well inland ;-)
<jjesse> what is the link for browsng the svn archive through the web?
<LaserJock> https://docteam.ubuntu.com/repos/trunk
<LaserJock> yes! bugs.ubuntu.com goes to https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+bugs/
<jjesse> nice
<LaserJock> that will be nice to change in the documentation
<jjesse> instead of lunahcpad.net/distros.ubuntu/+bugs?
<Madpilot> lunchpad?
<LaserJock> yeah
<LaserJock> it has always bugged me (pun intended) that there was no simple URL to go to Ubuntu bugs
<LaserJock> we always say, "go to launchpad" but if you go to launchpad.net it takes you a while to get to the bugs
<Madpilot> it's also too easy to go to the wrong bug section in LP from the frontpage
<LaserJock> you might get LP bugs, or something
<LaserJock> and Debian has bugs.debian.org
<LaserJock> so it seems logical to use bugs.ubuntu.com
<mdke> LaserJock: cbx33 (is that his nick?) was keen on using the docteam repo, no?
<LaserJock> yeah, but he and I seem to be the only doc team people keen on it
<LaserJock> or Edubuntu people rather
<LaserJock> we'll see
<mdke> LaserJock: who are the other people actually contributing words to it?
<LaserJock> pygi and HedgeMage are sort of the leaders
<LaserJock> spacey, bluekuja are also contributing I think
<LaserJock> they have an LP team
<mdke> yeah, they have a team, but I mean, are they actually working on the content?
<mdke> everyone has a LP team nowadays :)
<LaserJock> yeah, I think all of those people contributed to the Dapper version
<LaserJock> I think there might be a couple others for Edgy based on the meeting yesterday
<mdke> ok. I wasn't aware there was a dapper version
<LaserJock> heh, yeah
<LaserJock> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/HowToCookEdubuntu/Chapters
<LaserJock> but there is an older Edubuntu cookbook on the wiki too
<LaserJock> it gets confusing
<mdke> yeah, it does a bit
<LaserJock> if they did want to use the doc team repo it would be cool
<crimsun_> I'm pretty surprised LaTeX surfaced as an option
<LaserJock> heh
<LaserJock> well, people had used it before
<LaserJock> and nobody knew docbook
<mdke> well, that's the beauty of this moin -> docbook tool
<LaserJock> and they were wanting to get a publisher and everything
<mdke> meh
<LaserJock> they totally don't want moin
<mdke> LaserJock: but, it's in Moin now
<LaserJock> yeah
<LaserJock> and they hated it :-)
<mdke> meh
<LaserJock> for trying to put together a doc
<LaserJock> it wasn't anything against moin in general
<mdke> this project has too much philosophising about tools and processes before actually focusing on getting some results together
<mdke> it's been like 18 months of refocusing on different ways of doing the same thing
<LaserJock> I tried ...
<mdke> i mean, talking about publishers, without really any results...
<mdke> it's just so premature
<LaserJock> well, they decided to shoot for lulu.com instead ;-)
<LaserJock> after some discussion
* mdke is a fan of biting off small pieces and focusing on those to achieve progress
<LaserJock> anyway, I hope they approach the doc team about it but I sort of doubt it
<mdke> meh
<mdke> and after all that effort making nice edubuntu stylings too
<LaserJock> well, I think cbx33, mhz, jerome, and I will used edubuntu/ :-)
<crimsun_> ok, what was that supposed to say?
<LaserJock> s/used/use/
<crimsun_> ah
<LaserJock> sorry
<LaserJock> I'm still trying to wake up
<crimsun_> np, my brain's slow this afternoon
<Exdaix> Hey guys
<LaserJock> hi Exdaix 
<jjesse> afternoon Exdaix
<Exdaix> oops sorry about the delay...   co-workers nabbed me for a sec
<Exdaix> Im interested in getting involved int he docs project...  I've read most of the stuff on wiki and browsed through help.ubuntu and doc.ubuntu...   what is your suggestions on getting my feet wet so to say?
<jjesse> right now we are sort of in a holding pattern for edgy to get started, you could join our docteam meeting this friday
<Exdaix> yeah I saw that, can do.  Would that be the best time to do an introduction and such?
<jjesse> sure would
<LaserJock> Exdaix: have you checked out a copy of the svn repo?
<Exdaix> And is there any "wysiwyg" programs or editors you guys prefer to do the docbok editing...  or just hand-coding with like gedit?
<Exdaix> LaserJock: not yet
<jjesse> i prefer handcoding with kate
<LaserJock> Exdaix: gedit seems to work well, wysiwyg editors so far don't seem to be very exciting
<LaserJock> I usually use vim though
<Exdaix> I was tinkering with conglomerate, but it seems a bit buggy for me
<Exdaix> where can I find the command to grab a copy of the repo
<Exdaix> I have svn already
<LaserJock> yeah, and our repo is complex enough that it just chokes
<jjesse> install subversion first
<LaserJock> Exdaix: wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/Repository
<jjesse> grin we should have a bot to answer questions like that :)
<LaserJock> yep
<LaserJock> I need one in -motu too
<Exdaix> are there that many people who ask?   I figured the poor doc people were starving for help :)
<jjesse> no we are just lazy
<LaserJock> hehe
<Exdaix> lol
<LaserJock> and we can't remember how to do it ourselves ;-)
<jjesse> that's usually my problem
<Exdaix> what a good confidence builder hah
<Exdaix>  ok grabbing now
<Exdaix> *runs off into ubuntu-doc wonderland and gets lost*
<jjesse> good luck, bring breadcrumbs
<mgalvin> jjesse: lol
<jjesse> glad you enjoyed it
<jjesse> ok works over for the day :)
#ubuntu-doc 2006-06-14
<apokryphos> so, any objections to me changing FrequentlyAskedQuestions to point to CommonQuestions?
<apokryphos> well, I'm changing it now.. if anyone has any problems feel free to contact me
<LaserJock> Burgwork: ping?
<nixternal> i think Burgwork is off on a business trip...something about librarians under a table, and a bar crawl is all i really remember from the conversation ;)
<LaserJock> heh
<LaserJock> of course it wold be today :(
<nixternal> hehe
<LaserJock> I'm doing a little work for his company and I needed to ask him something
<Madpilot> mdke, ping
<Madpilot> WTF? I get "page doesn't exist yet" from both wiki.u.c/CategoryCleanup & /CategoryDocumentation...
<dsas> and me
<dsas> last time they're mentioned in RecentChanges is 2006-06-1 - and there's no deletion record
<Madpilot> ya
<Madpilot> as I said before: WTF?
<Madpilot> mdke was chasing some wiki vandal/idiot (Ruwan5) earlier
<Madpilot> he'd deleted CatNeedsExpansion & CatNetworking - but there's nowt in RecentChanges about CatCleanup or CatDoc...
<mdke> dsas: are you recreating Cat doc?
<mdke> Madpilot: pong
<Madpilot> hi mdke 
<Madpilot> just wondering what's up on the wiki...
* mdke shrugs
<mdke> no idea who deleted that one
<Madpilot> not showing up in RecentChanges either...
<dsas> mdke: I was just about to, just using the default category template. I can't remember what was there before and if it was different.
<mdke> dsas: as long as you get the right search, no prob
<mdke> i'm on cleanup
<dsas> The right search was just FullSearch() right?
<Madpilot> FullSearch(CategoryName)
<Madpilot> check the surviving categories for the exact syntax
<dsas> I thought FullSearch defaulted to the page name, I've used your suggestion anyway
<dbernar1> Hi. It appears, through reading online reviews, that there are two things that may require some more documentation. One is the partitioning process, and the other is exact instructions for an upgrade between two releases of Ubuntu. It seems that the manual partitioning process is still a bit harder to explain and document, but of course, not impossible.
<dbernar1> As for the upgrade, it should suffice to better emphasize (perhaps using bolder letters:-) on the upgrade Wiki page to, for example, have the corresponding -desktop package installed. Perhaps you could add that one should make sure there are no broken packages, with something like "aptitude -f install". You could even add what one should clean up, such as gstreamer 0.8, between breezy and dapper...Thanks.
<Madpilot> ...well, thanks for the driveby, dbernar1... :|
<LaserJock> mdke: no move yet?
<mdke> LaserJock: no, not yet
<LaserJock> I assumed that was the Znarl ping :-)
<mdke> yep
<jjesse> grumble grumble who thought writing a chapter in a book would be hard and frustrating :(
<LaserJock> heh
<LaserJock> going that well?
<jjesse> they need to use some form of versionin system
<LaserJock> they don't use anything?
<jjesse> not with the authors
<LaserJock> uhhh
<jjesse> mdke: who is in charge of the example-content?
<jsgotangco> jjesse: uggghhh honestly on our side, we use svn
<jjesse> right now it seems like it is basically word with tracking changes and comments turned on
<jsgotangco> nasty
<LaserJock> ack
<jjesse> but then when you send them a document with images and they get it confused with the images and document from another email
<jsgotangco> and you're only talking of a chapter...
<jjesse> yup
<jjesse> 1 chpt 52 screenshots
<jjesse> they have gotten all misnumberd
<jsgotangco> yay
<jsgotangco> 52 screenshots????
<Exdaix> I hope thats a large chapter
<jjesse> yup 52 screenshots
<LaserJock> jsgotangco: yeah, you know, they're making a picture book ;-)
<jjesse> remember that this is the only chpt on kubuntu so its covering everything
<jsgotangco> Exdaix: hopefully not 52 pages
<jsgotangco> heh
<jsgotangco> kidding
<jjesse> grin thanksfor the show of support
<jjesse> you can see some of the chapter (as the screenshots are all messed ) in the Example-Content/book folder
<jjesse> jsgotangco: without the screenshots its 49 pages long
<Exdaix> jjesse: where is it again?  I dont have an Example-Content folder
<jjesse> sorry /home/username/Example
<jsgotangco> i thought you guys are done writing already?
<jjesse> if you install off the live cd
<jjesse> i was but things got messed up
<jjesse> hence my frustration
<Exdaix> ohh that folder...  I deleted that already - oops
<Exdaix> lol
<jjesse> bummer dude :)
<mdke> jjesse: henrik for the content, dholbach for the packaging
<jjesse> mdke: thanks, there are some bugs i'm filling against it
<jjesse> which is kinda unfortnate because they are included on the cds and everything, like the kubuntu  presentation has "TBD" on one of its sldes
<jsgotangco> lesson #1: do not collaborate online without revision control
<jsgotangco> heh
<jsgotangco> good night
<mdke> jjesse, ouch
<jjesse> mdke: agreed i didn't realize no one was taking a look at the example-content 
<jjesse> to make sure things were finished etc
<mdke> jjesse: yeah, oh well.
<LaserJock> Burgwork: still away?
#ubuntu-doc 2006-06-15
<jjesse> for those that are intersted in kubuntu docs please see https://wiki.kubuntu.org/KubuntuDocs/Edgy for the specification that I'm building
<LaserJock> jjesse: anything new?
<LaserJock> or is that what you are looking for :-)
<jjesse> i don't know when the last time you looked at it but i did some changes today
<LaserJock> just now
<LaserJock> it looks like Release Note, KDG, Adept, and Switching from Windows?
<jjesse> and anything fun you want to do?
<jjesse> anythin edgy :)
<jjesse> ooooo reviewing actual copies of what will be in the book
<jjesse> proofs :)
<LaserJock> well, alas I think my time has already been swallowed up
<jjesse> bummer doing what?
<LaserJock> umm, the Ubuntu Packaging Guide the Ubuntu Developers Reference, Edubuntu stuff, MOTU Science stuff
<LaserJock> Edubuntu Council stuff
<jjesse> wow your time is spoken for :)
<LaserJock> and perhaps a PhD
<LaserJock> well, I've sort of got this habit of agreeing to do anything people ask me to do
<LaserJock> mdke?!
<jsgotangco> good morning
<Madpilot> hi jsgotangco 
<jjesse> evening jsgotangco
<jsgotangco> hey guys =)
<Madpilot> no more vandalism/stupidity on the wiki since last night's outbreak, I see
<jsgotangco> oh there was eh?
<Madpilot> yeah, "Ruwan5" - Matt cleaned most of it up
<jjesse> hmm didn't realize there was last night
<Madpilot> deleted four or five Category pages, created a bunch of utterly useless pages
<jjesse> must not have been on any pages i subscribe to
<Madpilot> I only noticed it thru RecentChanges
<jjesse> don't you hate it when you forget where you were at in the midst of a doc?
<jjesse> jsgotangco are you going to uds-paris?
<jsgotangco> yes
<jjesse> cool i hope you have fun
<jsgotangco> well ive been to a devel summit before, its always fun
<jjesse> this was to be my first one, but i switched jobs and have no vacation time yet
<jjesse> though i think i might get work to swing time for the next one
<jsgotangco> yes you should experience it 
<jsgotangco> for paris we will have voip as well using teamspeak
<jsgotangco> and gobby
<jjesse> i know but paris is +6 for me :(
<jjesse> so a 9am meeting would b 3am 
<jsgotangco> i will probably suffer a wee bit of jetlag as well but at night
<jjesse> and i'm sure it would suck to be on dialup cause that's all i got at home
<Madpilot> http://www.softpedia.com/reviews/linux/gedit-Review-26002.shtml <-- nice idea - reviewing the 'everyday' apps as if they were new & shiny
<jsgotangco> yes that's good
<Madpilot> well, aside from the ads inline all over that text...
<jsgotangco> well yes softpedia is quite notorious on such
<nixternal> jsgotangco: where at in Chicago did you live? i just read you posting in the forums
<jsgotangco> nixternal: hi sorry i was out, West Farragut, my folks still live there
<nixternal> ahhh
<nixternal> im out in the burbs
<nixternal> near schaumburg
<jsgotangco> my mom works in a well known bridal shop
<jsgotangco> while dad still works at wallgreens managing an outlet
<jsgotangco> my mom got featured in the sun times a few weeks ago in the lifestyle section =)
<nixternal> really
<nixternal> i read lifestyle
<nixternal> hehe
<nixternal> i bet i know the "well known" shop...davids?
<nixternal> i can't rmeember the names
<jsgotangco> House of Brides Couture
<nixternal> ya ya
<nixternal> thats it...there is one by my house as a matter of fact
<jsgotangco> she's one of the big consultants
<nixternal> my sister might know her then..she does all the big wig weddings in the chicago land are
<nixternal> a
<jsgotangco> ahh yeah i won't be surprised
<jsgotangco> ill probably go there before the year ends
<nixternal> well..nothing has changed here really
<nixternal> same ol' chicago
<jsgotangco> i worked for a few months in konami on the gambling division
<jsgotangco> then decided to go back home here
<nixternal> where is konami?
<nixternal> naper?
<jsgotangco> i think they went back to LA
<jsgotangco> when i started there the casino division was being formed
<jsgotangco> i won't be surprised if they have a las vegas office already
<nixternal> i think i remember a konami office in naperville...i remember seeing something about a job opening or something maybe...can't remember
<Madpilot> mdke, if you still need them, the Lulu book covers have been moved to http://ubuntu.ca/ubuntu-books to free up space on my own server
<mdke> Madpilot: thanks
<Madpilot> np
<Madpilot> any more translations come in?
<mdke> well, more have been done, but we haven't imported them into the repo yet
<klepas> hey folks
<nixternal> this is the most action i have seen in here today ;)
<bhuvan> mdke: when a user reports a bug in any of documents and if we confirm it we can commit the fix in trunk. do we have to commit the fix in branch as well ?
<mdke> bhuvan: no, edgy work should be in trunk. Make sure any changes that were made in the branch recently have been applied to the trunk too
<bhuvan> mdke: ok. yeah, we must ensure trunk contains latest changes. my question, do we have to make these changes in branch (branches/dapper?)
<mdke> bhuvan: my answer, no, edgy work should be in trunk
<bhuvan> mdke: ok! so, aren't we providing patches for dapper users ?
<mdke> not that I know about
<bhuvan> ok. if so, i guess, we should do these changes in branch as well and get the patch out of it (may be)
<jsgotangco> mdke: i thought  you would or would it only be limited to ltranslations>
<mdke> bhuvan: no, don't change anything in branch please
<mdke> jsgotangco: mm?
<bhuvan> mdke: ok, np. i'll not touch branch. infact i haven't checkout. after you said, i'll not checkout branch!
<jsgotangco> mdke: have you started uploading translations?
<jsgotangco> i guess not
<mdke> bhuvan: ok, I'll try and make sure any of the changes to the serverguide we've done there can be applied to trunk
<mdke> jsgotangco: no, not yet
<bhuvan> mdke: ok
<mdke> bhuvan: don't make any changes to trunk until that is done
<bhuvan> mdke: oh. i just did commit a fix for 49675. it is trivial though
<mdke> bhuvan: that may mean it will get undone when I manually merge branch back.
<mdke> so remember what change you made :)
<bhuvan> yeah sure
<mdke> bhuvan: serverguide in trunk is up to date already, no problems
<bhuvan> mdke: ok
<mdke> oh shit hang on
<mdke> lemme do a proper diff this time
<bhuvan> mdke: i see couple of couples in branches/dapper/generic/serverguide. last commit being on jun 09
<bhuvan> s/couples/commits/g
<mdke> yep, seems to be all up to date
<matthewrevell> Hey guys - just out of interest, do you have any plans to move over to Bazaar, rathr than SVN?
<BenB> I am having trouble logging my laptop test on the Ubintu wiki.  Anyone here able to help?
* mdke nods and shakes his head at the same time at matthewrevell 
<mdke> BenB: yes
<matthewrevell> mdke: :)
<mdke> matthewrevell: we've thought about it, and so far haven't found any persuasive reason to do so
<mdke> at least, that's my interpretation of the situation
<matthewrevell> mdke: As there's already a working solution in place, that's understandable.
<BenB> Great.  When I create the page with the template, I just get a #REDIRECT line (to the laptop testing template) and I don't know what to do then!
<mdke> BenB: yeah, that is an error by us, hang on
<matthewrevell> bzr seems to have a lower learning curve than other solutions, so for new projects I'd say it's pretty cool.
<BenB> mdke: OK.  Hang on short term, or long term?
<mdke> BenB: I'll sort it in a bit. For now, just create your page, then use the table here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LaptopTestingTeam/Template
<BenB> mdke:  OK, but I think I may have created a page with the REDIRECT so it may need to be deleted:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LaptopTestingTeam/SonyVaioVGN-S4XP
<mdke> BenB: no, just use that page
<mdke> I'll do it for you, hang on
<BenB> mdke: OK.  Thanks.
<mdke> BenB: done, now just fill in the blanks :)
<BenB> mdke:  Ah,  great,  Thanks.
<mdke> matthewrevell: i'm conscious I may not have answered any of the questions _you_ had about where to start contributing yesterday...
<matthewrevell> mdke: I was half asleep last night, so I'm not sure I fully remember :)
<mdke> matthewrevell: well, I'm much better at explaining things when I'm not being recorded, so feel free to ask :)
<matthewrevell> :)
<matthewrevell> mdke: I felt as though we'd covered pretty much everything. We had a chat, afterwards, about the whole toolchain side of things, which threw up some interesting ideas. The main conclusion we reached, though, was that it's more important to have people writing docs, than thinking about tools.
<matthewrevell> My own questions relate more to how to get a feel for the community, etc, and who is doing what.
<mdke> right
<matthewrevell> The styleguide is a good place to start, but I think you mentiones that it's in flux. 
<mdke> it occurred to me that I didn't mention the wiki->docbook tools that are evolving
<mdke> that was stupid of me
<matthewrevell> Oh. Perhaps I could mention them in the following show, if you give me details.
<mdke> sure
<dsas> That's just reminded me, I was humming the LR theme earlier and couldn't remember where it was from.
<matthewrevell> dsas: Ah, Dean Sas.
<mdke> http://www.mdke.org/blog/Wiki2Docbook.html
<matthewrevell> :)
<matthewrevell> mdke: Thanks. 
<dsas> matthewrevell: Hello.
<matthewrevell> mdke: Are the "Work in Progress" links on the right-hand side of doc.ubuntu.com the current priorities? I ask because the main page content says they're in development for release with Dapper, but obviously that's been released.
<mdke> matthewrevell: yeah, that hasn't been updated since Dapper. We still have to make plans for edgy about what projects to focus on.
<jsgotangco> matthewrevell: bzr doesn't bode well for structured data like xml and the current social structure of the docteam doesn't fit well in a distributed revision control system
<jsgotangco> unless each derivative begins to have their own teams working separately i guess
<jsgotangco> its possible to make bzr work like an svn server with a PQM bot, but then, why bother
* jsgotangco thinks just upgrading the current svn would probably work too
<matthewrevell> jsgotangco: Oh really? Okeydoke. I haven't used it enough to have come across its limitations with documentation etc.
<mdke> I dunno...
<jsgotangco> its a neat system
<mdke> it should be able to work with documentation
<dsas> I wasn't sure how the xml limitations were any different to any other rcs xml limitations
<matthewrevell> mdke: How do you guys make plans, then? Do you have irc meetings to bash it all out?
<dsas> i.e. it's easy to make the document not validate.
<mdke> matthewrevell: that's the idea yeah. There is one tomorrow, I believe
<jsgotangco> its not so much on the xml limitation per se, but its more on the social structure of a distributed rcs compared to a centralised one
<jjesse> at noon est 
<jjesse> whatever time that is gmt 
<jsgotangco> ie; reverting changes than having all merge to the reverts
<matthewrevell> jjesse: 17:00 I think
<dsas> it's today at 18:00 BST according to the topic in u-meeting
<matthewrevell> Are the meetings announced on the ubuntu-doc mailing list, then? Also, are they open?
<jsgotangco> always
* jsgotangco couldn't attend, he's flying at 20:00
<jjesse> is it @Agenda or what in #ubuntu-meeting i never remember?
<dsas> jjesse: @schedule
<matthewrevell> I'll be driving home at 18:00. I take it the log is available online somewhere, shortly after?
<jjesse> hmm did the date get changed?
<dsas> matthewrevell: http://people.ubuntu.com/~fabbione/irclogs/ 
<matthewrevell> dsas: Thanks
<mdke> dsas: today? tomorrow right?
<dsas> 15th of June apparently
<mdke> well, our agenda page says 16th
<dsas> ah, the fridge disagrees.
<mdke> tut tut
<mdke> stupid fridge
<mdke> mailing list says 16th too
<dsas> Now there's plenty of time to watch the football and cook :)
<mdke> the idea of a meeting during the football is crazy
<mdke> we have enough english people to veto that
<jsgotangco> has england played already
<mdke> second game is today
<jsgotangco> would you strangle me if i wish they lose?
* bhuvan assumes it's not ubuntu-doc meeting
<jsgotangco> mdke: there's a teamspeak server setup for paris so you could still get involved in a bof or something
<mdke> jsgotangco: we'll see. cool idea
<mdke> jsgotangco: and no ;)
<jsgotangco> cool i hope they loose 10-0
* mdke strangles jsgotangco 
<BenB> mdke: First draft written!  Many thanks.  Bye all.
<jjesse> mdke you there?
<jjesse> anyone able to help pitti in #ubuntu-doc in regards to svn merge?
<LaserJock> not I
<jjesse> bummer
<LaserJock> what did we merge?
<jjesse> trunk into branches
<jjesse> so we have branches/breezy and branches/dapper
<jjesse> and trunk is wher the development takes place
<LaserJock> I didn't think we merged though, but I don't get svn very well
<jjesse> yes we did, there is in fact something about it on the meeting agenda for tomrorow
<LaserJock> yeah, but those are manual merges, no?
<LaserJock> svn diff and then patch
<jjesse> sorry for the delay laserjock, but we did a manual svn merge branch/dapper trunk or something liek that
<LaserJock> hmm, I didn't
<jjesse> mdke made one i think for all 
<LaserJock> hmm
<LaserJock> jjesse: hmm, I only see a merge for the server guide
<mdke> jjesse: no, I haven't done merges for everything, it's the responsibility of each maintainer to make sure everything has been kept up to date
* Laser_away runs
<Laser_away> I'll make sure I'm up to date before the meeting tomorrow
* mdke cracks whip at LaserJock 
* mdke considers downloading translations
#ubuntu-doc 2006-06-16
<nooby_god> I'm goging to write a wiki article on the linux-wlan-ng drivers
<nooby_god> how ever my ability to explain isn't so great, is the a documentation 'scratch pad' somewhere?
<mdke> nooby_god: sounds great. Is there anything about it already?
<nooby_god> mdke: some of it is taked in a guide already but it did not work for me
<mdke> nooby_god: the best thing is to try and improve that guide, by correcting it where it doesn't work. Does that make sense?
<nooby_god> ok
<mdke> nooby_god: for help editing the wiki, check out the WikiGuide page
<nooby_god> the guide that already talks about it has the correct documentation
<nooby_god> but it doesn't work anymore because of this bug -> https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+source/linux-source-2.6.15/+bug/21569
<Ubugtu> Malone bug 21569 in linux-source-2.6.15 "prism2_usb: requires wlanctl-ng commands in order to work properly" [Medium,Confirmed]  
<mdke> ah, ok. Sounds like you have a good idea about what is going on
<mdke> maybe you can just add a note to work around that bug
<nooby_god> is there a scratchpad for socumentation some where?
<nooby_god> or should I just ass stuff onto the wiki
* mdke hands over to LaserJock, and goes to bed
<LaserJock> bah, is Burgwork the only mediawiki guy?
<LaserJock> mdke: thanks :-)
<LaserJock> nooby_god: hi again!
<LaserJock> nooby_god: do you have a personal page on the wiki?
<nooby_god> hey LaserJock I gave up on creating packages, too much I didn't know
<nooby_god> uhh not yet
<LaserJock> like my page is https://wiki.ubuntu.com/JordanMantha
<crimsun_> nooby_god: (most packages are fairly straightforward)
<LaserJock> you could then use sub pages of that for a scratch pad
<nooby_god> ah, I see LaserJoc, just like wikipedia
<nooby_god> crimsun_: let's discuss this on the appropriate channel
<crimsun_> nooby_god: if it's a documentation issue (ala PG), it's as appropriate here.
<nooby_god> uhh not a documentation issue, more like my intelligence issue
<Madpilot> hi all
<gobbe> hi
<LaserJock> hi Madpilot 
<LaserJock> Madpilot: you ever set up a mediawiki wiki?
<Madpilot> looks like a good agenda for tomorrow's meeting - too bad I'll be stuck at work :|
<Plug> I have, if you need help?
<LaserJock> Plug: ah sweet
<Plug> It was all very simple at the time. :)
<Madpilot> LaserJock, nope, but I gather it's fairly turnkey
<LaserJock> Plug: I don't understand what the WikiSysops user part is about
<Plug> I didn't use a package, but I believe there is a reasonably up to date one
<Plug> WikiSysop is the first user created
<Plug> you use that account to create others
<LaserJock> but it isn't in the data base
<Plug> or you can set up external auth.
<Plug> I think its in LocalSettings.php
<LaserJock> I can't figure out how to administer anything
<Plug> start with LocalSettings.php
<Plug> you should have a wikisysop password defined in there
<Plug> I'll be back in 45mins or so sorry, lunch now
<LaserJock> ok, so WikiSysops doesn't do anything/
<LaserJock> ?
<Plug> WikiSysop is a user
<Plug> there is a sysops group 
<LaserJock> but I can't login as that user
<LaserJock> so what's the point?
<Plug> and a beauracracts group as well
<Plug> the point is you should be able to :)
<Plug> bbl
<LaserJock> oh
<Plug> (sorry about my shit timing)
<LaserJock> np
<LaserJock> bah, I don't see anything in LocalSettings.php
<Madpilot> gah, more wiki vandalising morons - Henrik seems to have spent quite a bit of time reverting from this one :|
<nixternal> http://img50.imageshack.us/img50/368/data5ze.gif
<Madpilot> hehe
<nixternal> so has he done a lot of vandalising or no?
<Madpilot> henrik wasn't the vandal 
<Plug> Laser_away: I'm back now
<Plug> but you're not :)
<LaserJock> Plug: still around?
<Plug> yo
<LaserJock> ok
<LaserJock> so I can't find my WikiSysops and I can't login as that user either
<Plug> right
<Plug>                    be some hot lesbian action
<Plug> (wrong thing to paste ;)
<Plug> http://localhost/mediawiki/config
<Plug> on that page, you define your db settings and sysop credentials
<LaserJock> it says already configured
<Plug> Did you install it from source or a package?
<LaserJock> source
<LaserJock> I mean I ran all the stuff, the wiki is up
<LaserJock> I even created a new user
<Plug> well, on that page, you should have been able to define your sysop username/pwd.  Do you know that?
<LaserJock> yes
<LaserJock> I did that
<LaserJock> that's what I'm saying
<LaserJock> I did that but now I can't log in as that user
<Plug> right, sorry for being wordy; now I know exactly where you're at.
<LaserJock> np
* Plug checks his database
<Plug> the first user in my 'user' table is wikisysop
<LaserJock> bah
<LaserJock> :(
<Plug> you said it wasn't there for you
<LaserJock> no, it's not
<Plug> hmmm, maybe it couldn't write to the DB at the time
<LaserJock> so does that mean the first user made would be the sysop
<Plug> nope
<Plug> user_group table
<Plug> user_groups sorry
<Plug> create a row where ug_user = your user ID and ug_group = "sysop"
<Plug> also another row where ug_user = your user ID and ug_group = "bureaucrat"
<LaserJock> so as long as I have at least one sysop and bureaucrat I'll be ok?
<Plug> well, yeah
<Plug> as long as your account is a sysop you can do the rest from within mediawiki
<LaserJock> I just wondered if WikiSysop was a specail sysop
<Plug> I don't believe so.  I recall you can set the name on the config screen too
<LaserJock> yeah
<Plug> Any luck, LaserJock?
<LaserJock> well ...
<LaserJock> I'm not the sysadmin so it's going to take a while to test :-)
<LaserJock> I asked in #mediawiki as well
<LaserJock> one guy said to just wipe it and start over
<LaserJock> but I think your idea seems logical
<Plug> You don't need to wipe and start over with Linux. :)
<Plug> let me know how it goes for you.
<Plug> bbl
<jsgotangco> hello hello
<nixternal> http://www.flickr.com/photos/nixternal/sets/72157594167289193/
<jsgotangco> au revoir!
<mdke> morning
<matthewrevell> morning
<bhuvan> how do we change the topic in #ubuntu-meeting ?
<mdke> not sure
<bhuvan> mdke: it seem to be based on the calendar in: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event
<bhuvan> docteam meeting is wrongly set as jun 15. as per Agenda it was/is jun 16 15utc
<Plug> web says 1700UTC?
<jjesse> its 1700 utc
<Plug> or 5am Plug-time :( 
<jjesse> bummer plug
<jjesse> 1pm jjesse time :)
<mdke> bhuvan: yes
<bhuvan> Plug: yeah it is 1700UTC
<Plug> In that case, I look forward to reading the minutes!
<Plug> While I'm here, anyone know why all of GNOME is updated in dapper-updates atm?
<mdke> Plug: yes, because it fixes bugs
<Plug> figured :)
<Plug> The changelogs in the updater are MIA.
<mdke> yes
<mdke> bbl
<matthewrevell> Afternoon guys
<nixternal> meeting in 1hr15min
<Laser_away> wow, we have a time keeper ;-)
<jsgotangco> wow there's a meeting?
<jsgotangco> but i have to sleep :/
<archis> nixternal, thanks :)
<nixternal> hehe
<nixternal> that is what kontact is telling me
<mdke> hi archis 
<Laser_away> jsgotangco: no sleep :-)
<mdke> nice work on the wiki
<jeffsch> Laser_away: did you get your mediawiki problems worked out?
<jsgotangco> what sort of problems?
<archis> mkde heya
<Laser_away> jeffsch: I don't know, I'm waiting for the sysadmin to email me back
<Laser_away> jeffsch: when I get in to school I'll drop by his office
<jeffsch> Laser_away:  ah. you are installing in a /home directory?
<Laser_away> jeffsch: no, on the department server /www
<jeffsch> do you have root access to it?
<Laser_away> jsgotangco: I tried to set up a mediawiki at work but I ended up without a sysops
<jsgotangco> doh
<Laser_away> jeffsch: no, hence the waiting for the sysadmin ;-)
<jsgotangco> that's weird
<Laser_away> and since this was my first time trying mediawiki I wasn't sure what to do
<jsgotangco> even if you install it in a home director sysop is still the first account created...
<jeffsch> Laser_away: hmm... do you at least have permissions to chown in /www?
<Laser_away> jeffsch: hmm, not sure
<jsgotangco> honestly mediawiki is one of the easiest server apps that can be installed from a tgz
<Laser_away> jsgotangco: not in this case :(
<jsgotangco> interesting
<Laser_away> so now we have 2 users (sysadmin and I) and no sysops :-)
<jeffsch> if you copy the mediawiki tarball to, say, /www/mediawiki, then chown /www/mediawiki/config to www-data, you should be good to go
<jeffsch> copy the contents of the tarball, that is
<Laser_away> jeffsch: ?
<jeffsch> assuming www-data is the username of the web server
<jeffsch> did you install from a .tar.gz file?
<Laser_away> config is already owned by www-data
<jeffsch> ok, then you can go to http://servername/mediawiki?
<Laser_away> jeffsch: yeah, and get the wiki
<jeffsch> does it say "Please set up the wiki first"?
<Laser_away> no
<Laser_away> I already set it up
<Laser_away> it all works
<Laser_away> there just isn't a sysops user
<jsgotangco> hrmmmm
<jsgotangco> maybe there was a previous instance
<Laser_away> nope
<Laser_away> never *any* wikis on this server
<jsgotangco> well its interesting to know that you didn't set it up at all
<jeffsch> on the setup page, there's no fields for superuser account and superuser password?
<Laser_away> there was
<Laser_away> we set it up
<Laser_away> but it never created the user
<jeffsch> those are for the root user on the MySQL database, not for the operating system
<Laser_away> yeah
<jeffsch> did it ever create a LocalSettings.php?
<Laser_away> yeah
<Laser_away> jeffsch: can you hang on for like 30 min. I've got to get into school
<jeffsch> ok
<Laser_away> basically, as far as I can tell, it's a perfectly working wiki except there is no sysops user
<LaserJock> phew, back
<LaserJock> jeffsch: we did have a mysql error when we first tryed configuring the wiki
<LaserJock> jeffsch: I guess that's got to be the problem
<LaserJock> but I is kinda odd
<jeffsch> what was the error?
<LaserJock> gosh, I can't exactly remember
<LaserJock> something about being over 500 in a key or something
<LaserJock> but I know basically nothing about mysql
<jeffsch> i suggest redoing it from scratch... i just finished a fresh install while you were on your way to school... it easier than trying to figure out what went wrong
<LaserJock> yeah
<LaserJock> it's pretty painless, if it works :-)
<jeffsch> k, i hafta go now.... have a nice meeting guys
<LaserJock> jeffsch: thanks for looking at my wiki problem
<LaserJock> mdke: did you merge common stuff? My merged PG can't find lulu-store
<mdke> LaserJock: what is lulu-store?
<LaserJock> the URL for lulu
<mdke> ah. No I haven't
<LaserJock> I don't think I made it up :-)
* bhuvan has to wait 19 more mins for meeting
<Exdaix> *twiddles his thumbs*
<LaserJock> bah, why is there a index.php in the path of my wiki ? :/
<LaserJock> mdke: are you working on merging common? should I commit what I have now?
<jjesse> doc team meeting in a couple of minutes right?
<Exdaix> That's my impression
<bhuvan> jjesse: yes
<mdke> DonSc!
<DonSc> hey mdke
<mdke> heya
<jjesse> meeting begining in #ubuntu-meeting
<mdke> I have to go home
<mdke> I'll catch up on the log
<jjesse> bummer
<DonSc> figured I'd pop in and say hello
<LaserJock> mdke: you're here?
<mdke> LaserJock: yes
<mdke> meeting still on?
<LaserJock> yes
<LaserJock> we had a rousing discussion of your proposal
<mdke> good
<mdke> i'll catch up on the log later
<LaserJock> you should of been there
<LaserJock> I had to explain it
<LaserJock> and I don't even know that much :-)
<mdke> does my page not explain it?>
<LaserJock> well, people got somewhat confused at times
<LaserJock> it's just a radical and big change :-)
<bhuvan> ok guys, i'm moving on
<mdke> LaserJock: what was the general view?
<LaserJock> mdke: general view of?
<mdke> LaserJock: that idea of breaking down the help system a bit
<LaserJock> I think it was ok
<LaserJock> people didn't seem to get the idea right away, maybe I don't get it and maybe I didn't explain it very well
<LaserJock> \o/ I've got my first real wiki
<mdke> unofficial ubuntu docs eh?
<LaserJock> no
<mdke> my lulu book arrived today, looks really nice
<LaserJock> yeah? cool
<LaserJock> I created the University of Nevada, Reno Chemistry Graduate Student Association website ;-)
<mdke> cool
<LaserJock> it's mediawiki
<mdke> uncool
<LaserJock> we tried moin first
<LaserJock> but SuSe didn't have python 2.2 :(
<LaserJock> 2.4
<mdke> eh?
<mdke> it should work with 2.3, surely
<LaserJock> not out of the box, distutils poroblem
<LaserJock> anyway, the sysadmin already had a LAMP setup
* mdke blinks
<mdke> Python 2.3 is the minimum requirement for MoinMoin 1.5, but we suggest you use the latest Python release version.
<LaserJock> yeah
<LaserJock> but apparently SuSE 9.3 didn't have distutils
<mdke> dunno what distutils is, but it sounds like SUSE sucks
<LaserJock> if it was me, I would have gotten Moin to work, but the sysadmin didn't want to bother with it
<LaserJock> distutils is what is used to install python apps, ala python setup.py 
<LaserJock> anyway, I've never used mediawiki so this will be a chance to take it for a spin
<mdke> nod
<mdke> got the theme going?
<LaserJock> right now it's just default
<LaserJock> I had problems getting the administrator user setup (something weird happened when installing)
<mdke> i saw
<LaserJock> so now I need to get user stuff setup and I'll work on themeing/content
<mdke> cool, enjoy
<LaserJock> I hope so
<LaserJock> I also got to do some Ubuntu evangelizing with the sysadmin ;-)
<LaserJock> mdke: oh, and the super top secret project is in dapper-changes :-)
<mdke> non free software eh
<LaserJock> yeah
<LaserJock> I should take a shower
<LaserJock> it was ... interesting
<mdke> what is it?
<LaserJock> http://userful.com/products/dm
<mdke> hope you got a few bob out of it :)
<mdke> to compensate for touching multiverse 
<LaserJock> enough to almost cover the cost of my passport
<mdke> heh
<mdke> so it's like a thin client thing?
<LaserJock> kinda
<LaserJock> I'm not too sure of what exactly it does, but it has it's own X
<LaserJock> anyway, it was an interesting experience
<mdke> :)
<LaserJock> I learned a few things about debconf and the corporate software world
<LaserJock> I even had my first conference call ;-)
<LaserJock> mdke: hehe, maybe he should use "real" software ;-) j/k
<nixternal> http://static.flickr.com/52/168487574_d98223264a_o.png
<nixternal> take a guess on what im working on :)
<mdke> LaserJock: tbh, evolution would probably have done worse
<mdke> nixternal: what's that "Matt" one >_<
<nixternal> muhahah
<nixternal> that is your proposal
<nixternal> had it open from the meeting
<mdke> aha
<nixternal> reading it and re-reading it so i can understand the system fully
<mdke> i thought you were spying on me
<nixternal> lol
<nixternal> already did that...don't need to do it again ;)
<nixternal> hehe
<mdke> I'll make an effort to tidy up that page to make it a bit clearer
<nixternal> it was made pretty clear by LaserJock thats for sure
<nixternal> he did a damn fine job of wording it in the meeting
<mdke> ah, splendid
* mdke reads meeting log
* linuxmonkey reads mdke's private email convo's
<mdke> LaserJock: "it will take a lot of hard work and *really* good communication with upstreams"
<mdke> LaserJock: I don't think communication with upstream is necessary, the idea is just to bring in the docs that exist from upstream
<mdke> using ghelp links it would work fine
* mdke finishes the skimread
<LaserJock> mdke: wasn't think of evo (I can never get it to work)
<LaserJock> I wasn't sure how much upstream would be needed but I thought that perhaps they would need to be consulted
<mdke> in terms of patching upstream docs, maybe we'd need to keep aware of changes, yeah. But I think patching upstream docs would be too much effort for this release cycle
<mdke> just linking them in would already be a significant improvement
<LaserJock> yeah
<LaserJock> I agree
<mdke> possibly do a quick s/Desktop Menu/System Menu
<LaserJock> there is soo much documentation that is in yelp already, we just need to present it better, IMHO
<mdke> well, don't forget that my idea would involve cutting out most of the stuff that appears in the various TOCs at the moment
<LaserJock> mdke: like what?
<mdke> well, realistically, most of them
<LaserJock> :(
<LaserJock> I like my little weird docs
<mdke> I'd say things like the gnome user guide, accessibility guide, and so on are things we should be able to accomodate really nicely
<mdke> the other stuff is more difficult, and don't forget that if we do it, ubuntu-docs will need to depend on any other packages that supply docs we link
<mdke> obviously, they'd still be available from the search bar
<LaserJock> there isn't a way to add them in dynamically?
<mdke> well, the whole point is binning the category system
<LaserJock> hmm, we need a mock up or something
<mdke> yes, I'll do a bit of work on it
<LaserJock> I'm getting confused too
<LaserJock> :-)
<mdke> but to be honest, most of the docs indexed in yelp at the moment are totally useless
<mdke> from the point of view of desktop documentation, the man and info pages are a hindrance, rather than a feature
<LaserJock> like what happens when  we have Dive into Python installed? where does it go
<linuxmonkey> just like windows docs mdke..totally useless
<mdke> LaserJock: that's easy
<mdke> LaserJock: we do it already, see the Programming section of the desktop guide
<LaserJock> mdke: well, yes, that one is
<mdke> same principle
<LaserJock> but what if the user installs pygtk, where would the go to get the tutorial and reference?
<LaserJock> maybe that is a bit better example
<mdke> where do they go now?
<LaserJock> well, glade is in Applications -> Programming
<mdke> do people look there, or do they just get a browser and find it on their filesystem?
<LaserJock> I use yelp
<LaserJock> but ...
<LaserJock> I'd really like to use the help system for these things
<LaserJock> there is a lot of good info
<mdke> I see your point
<LaserJock> there is bzr documentation
<LaserJock> lots of good programming stuff
<mdke> potentially we'd need a way to link to what is in applications/programming now from one of our subpages
<LaserJock> science apps
<LaserJock> maxima has good docs in Applications -> Science
<mdke> so we'd need a way to get links to those pages going
<mdke> tricky, I'm not sure that can be done, I'll ask the yelp guys
<LaserJock> it seems to me that a system sort of like the menu would be cool
<mdke> if it can't, we'll have to bin my plan and hope that upstream improve the categories for 2.16
<LaserJock> so in the menu you have .desktop files that describe what categories the app belongs to
<mdke> LaserJock: that's the current system
<LaserJock> and then the menu system takes the .desktops and figures out how to display them
<LaserJock> k
<mdke> note how Applications follows the menu
<LaserJock> right
<LaserJock> I'm just saying you could probably dump most of that into "Using your desktop"
<LaserJock> dump System Tools into "Administering your system" or something
<mdke> yes
<LaserJock> I don't know, but it seems like there's got to be a way of doing this in a way the helps user find what the want
<LaserJock> but I don't know any of the internals so I'm just spouting off right now ;-)
<mdke> yes, I will chat to the yelp guys
<LaserJock> this biggest problem for me WRT documentation has been that I didn't know that I had all this documentation sitting right there in front of me
<LaserJock> I always assumed you had to go online
<mdke> yeah
<mdke> everyone does
<nixternal> what is the quickest and best way to report a change for h.u.c concerning the about-kubuntu documentation?
<mdke> nixternal: you mean a bug?
<nixternal> not a bug..or a change sorry...there is just old info in the current doc...just needs an update/refresher
<mdke> that's a bug
<mdke> https://launchpad.net/products/ubuntu-doc/+bugs
<nixternal> roger tha
<nixternal> t
<mdke> it's too late to do anything about it for dapper though
<nixternal> oh ok
<nixternal> then no worries
<mdke> if you file it, we can fix it for the next release
<nixternal> it has kubuntu with kde 3.5.2 which is now 3.5.3...no biggy really...as for edgy..don't know the version yet...im guessing as of right now 3.5.3, unless there are updates
<mdke> gotcha
<nixternal> might be a stupid question, but why don't they allow for changes to current releases?
<mdke> it's not "them", it's us, doing so would break our translation infrastructure... we could think about a clever way to update text, and allow a certain amount of time for translation before committing it, I suppose, but we don't have one right now
<nixternal> ahhh
<nixternal> ok
<nixternal> thx for that info...
<mdke> np
<nixternal> so now we start looking forward to Edgy documentation, which i can't wait for ;)
<mdke> that's it
<linuxmonkey> anyone know when kde 4 is due out, will it be in time for edgy
#ubuntu-doc 2006-06-17
<nixternal> no linuxmonkey..kde4 is supposed to have a preview though about the time Edgy is released
<LaserJock> mdke: woah, what's https://launchpad.net/products/ubuntu-doc/+bug/29075 all about?
<Ubugtu> Malone bug 29075 in ubuntu-doc "Have the Bazaar sandbox up" [Medium,Fix released]  
<mdke> LaserJock: what do you mean?
<linuxmonkey> ah ty nixternal
<LaserJock> mdke: we have a bzr sandbox on LP?
<LaserJock> somehow I missed out on the bug
<mdke> LaserJock: no, on the serverpronto box, you set it up, remember?
<LaserJock> mdke: well, yeah, but I thought jerome was talking about LP
<LaserJock> mdke: which I looking good, btw
<mdke> i don't see that
<LaserJock> k
<mdke> "which I looking good"? :p
<LaserJock> is
<LaserJock> yes, I'm looking good these day, shesh
<LaserJock> I need to learn to type
<mdke> :)
<LaserJock> my brain is fried getting ready to fly
<mdke> when do you leave?
<LaserJock> tomorrow at noon
<mdke> oh cool
<LaserJock> but I recently aquired an undergrad for the summer
<LaserJock> and my boss wants me to finish up some experiments this afternoon
<LaserJock> and I was working on that wiki
<LaserJock> and I still need to send out some emails :/
<nixternal> wasabi Madpilot
<Madpilot> hi
<LaserJock> so I had to get the undergrad setup for next week with plenty of stuff to keep him busy
<LaserJock> hopefully he doesn't blow up the lab
<mdke> haha, nice
<mdke> got a slave
<mdke> Madpilot: hiya
<LaserJock> yes, I'm very much a slave driver ;-)
<Madpilot> hi mdke 
<LaserJock> mdke: should I commit my merge of the PG? It doesn't validate because of the $lulu-url; thing
<mdke> Madpilot: how are things?
<mdke> LaserJock: sure, if you like.
<Madpilot> mdke, pretty good here - start of the weekend, thankfully!
<LaserJock> &lulu-store;, I was slipping into a merge between Bash and docbook, scary
<mdke> Madpilot: yeah
<Madpilot> mdke, how many of those new translations are going to be needing Lulu covers?
<mdke> Madpilot: I updated the wiki page, about 10?
<Madpilot> OK, I'll get on that in a bit
<mdke> Madpilot: no rush, I haven't done the pdfs yet. My desktop guide arrived today, it looks shiny
<Madpilot> nice. I haven't ordered anything from Lulu yet - I should
<LaserJock> mdke: what's the URL again for the page with all the translations
<nixternal> when editing docbooks, what is your favorite editor to use?  anyone?  im using kate, which is ok, but am tempted to switch to something better
<LaserJock> emacs, vim, kate, gedit
<mdke> gedit
<Madpilot> thinking of attempting to convert a relative over to Ubuntu (or possibly Xubuntu)
<Madpilot> Bluefish
<mdke> LaserJock: MatthewEast/CompleteBookTranslations
<LaserJock> mdke: thanks
<nixternal> i used to use a bluefish clone in windows for docbooks many moons ago
<LaserJock> bah, no new PG :(
* LaserJock sulks in the corner ;-)
<nixternal> hehe
<mdke> LaserJock: progress, but nothing else completely finished
<LaserJock> yeah, I saw you added some
<nixternal> it seems as if you can't attempt to join the doc-team launchpad team twice...i forgot i did that a couple of weeks back
<LaserJock> I'm amazed that it got as much translation action as it did
<LaserJock> I'm pretty pleased
<mdke> plenty of time yet
<LaserJock> hopefully bhuvan will be ok with my commit log ;-)
<Madpilot> did the meeting happen this morning? Was at work still
<mdke> :)
<LaserJock> Madpilot: yes
<LaserJock> like 2 hrs or something
<Madpilot> excellent
<LaserJock> we claimed it was because Matthew and the Burger Bros. weren't there ;-)
<mdke> outrageous
<LaserJock> hehe
<LaserJock> prove us wrong :-)
<Madpilot> heh. the irc logs aren't up to date yet - the meeting was at -meeting rather than here, right?
<LaserJock> yeah
<LaserJock> 10:00, although i don't know what that translates to on fabbione's log
<mdke> I read em in "current"
<Madpilot> 'current' is currently blank, it seems.
<LaserJock> maybe it switched to the next day
<mdke> must be a day back, yeah
<LaserJock> man, I'm terrible with email
<Madpilot> OK, maybe I'm just thick, but I can't find the docteam meeting in any of the most recent four log files?
<LaserJock> in #ubuntu-meeting?
<Madpilot> http://people.ubuntu.com/~fabbione/irclogs/ubuntu-meeting-2006-06-15.html
<LaserJock> yeah, your right
<Madpilot> ^^^ seems to go right from the tail end of a tech meeting to the Edubuntu meeting, no sign of DocTeam
<LaserJock> yeah
<LaserJock> weird
<Madpilot> stealth meeting? ;)
<LaserJock> no, didn't mdke read it from there too?
<Madpilot> apparently
<nixternal> doc team should be in there later im assuming...asi it takes a little time with that i have noticed...plus the edubuntu and tech meeting were yesterday 
<nixternal> and i think we were the only meeting in there today
<LaserJock> Madpilot: want me to send you the log?
<nixternal> actually..it isn't looking good..because there is nothing in current whatsoever that is where it should be
<nixternal> i have a log also
<nixternal> i think ;)
<LaserJock> my log is better than your log ;-)
<LaserJock> :p
<nixternal> lol
<Madpilot> LaserJock, I'll wait - hopefully it'll show up in -current
<nixternal> my log's daddy could beat up your log's daddy ;)
<LaserJock> oh yeah?!
<nixternal> gahaha
<LaserJock> shesh, I've got 26M of logs
<LaserJock> I need to tar the old ones up
<nixternal> <use the "is he your baby's daddy ghetto voice here>is that your loggy's daddy
<LaserJock> hehe
<nixternal> that was supposed to say....whose your loggy's daddy ;)
<nixternal> ooop
<nixternal> s
<linuxmonkey> lol
<LaserJock> hmm, I sure hope I can get my mic to work with my laptop :/
<LaserJock> it seems to hate me
<nixternal> ok..i want to edit some docs...any kubuntu related items need any work?
<nixternal> as it seems from the wiki that all projects are WIP
<nixternal> ;)
<LaserJock> Packaging Guide ;-)
<nixternal> doh
<nixternal> i knew you would sling that out there
<linuxmonkey> hahaha
<LaserJock> mwuahahaha
<nixternal> i need to really read that over and see if i can comment on anything
<LaserJock> I'm a slave driver, remember. I get people to do all my work :-)
<nixternal> haha ya
<nixternal> get your intern to do it ;)
<nixternal> i love interns
<linuxmonkey> and i get LaserJock to do all mu work
<LaserJock> wha?
<LaserJock> nooooooo
<linuxmonkey> s/mu/my
<nixternal> my first job out of the military they gave me a programmer for an intern..i abused that poor kid
<linuxmonkey> lol
<LaserJock> tsk, tsk
<linuxmonkey> he now works for EA games now...lol
<nixternal> 8 years ago today as a matter of fact..i had him programming ladder logic for me while i worked on VB front ends for SAP/ERP and control automation systems
<nixternal> he was a whiz..i actually couldn't keep him busy...yet i stayed swamped
<nixternal> you get that too LaserJock?
<LaserJock> nah, I just turn them loose ;-)
<nixternal> i think it is because we don't want to give them so much work that they actually look more important then us ;)
<nixternal> or stand out more rather
<LaserJock> yeah
<LaserJock> you just got to take all the credit ;-)
<nixternal> we give them enough and ya..hahah i was gonna say that
<LaserJock> well, the undergrad I've got working for me this summer seems pretty good
<LaserJock> and he likes Ubuntu which is a definate plus
<nixternal> LaserJock: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuPackagingGuide   <-is this a good place to start for info on that, or do you have something better?
<nixternal> that is good...now put him to doc work ;)
<nixternal> get um up to speed on docbooks and let um at it ;)
<LaserJock> nixternal: well, if you want a read just go to help.ubuntu.com
<nixternal> arg...i didn't even see it there
<LaserJock> nixternal: no, I need him to do "real" work while I'm off playing with Ubuntu
<nixternal> i seen the ubuntu/kubuntu/xubuntu/and server
<LaserJock> :(
<LaserJock> everybody overlooks my little PG
<nixternal> hehe
<nixternal> it isn't that little from the looks of it
<LaserJock> well, the license takes up like 11 pages or something ;-)
<nixternal> now the version im looking at..this is it until edgy correct?  or are you looking at updating and cleaning it up?
<LaserJock> oh, I'm just going to make it the most badass doc around ;-)
<nixternal> lol
<LaserJock> do you know anything about packaging?
<nixternal> a little
<LaserJock> then read through it, see if it makes sense, if you find something confusing or think something should be explained better but it on the wiki page you went to
<LaserJock> *put
<nixternal> i have been wanting to learn how one goes about packaging because i always see people talking about it..now i know where to get the infor to learn ;)
<nixternal> that UbuntuPackagingGuide wiki page?
<LaserJock> yeah, that is my notes for Edgy
<nixternal> ok...great...
<LaserJock> so just add stuff there or email me or ping me here, whatever
<nixternal> no prob...im sure if it is confusing i will find it
<nixternal> i usually do :0
<LaserJock> good :-)
<linuxmonkey> u think that right click is confusing nixternal
* linuxmonkey hides
<nixternal> i think the power button is confusing...right click isn't even in my vocab ;)
<LaserJock> hmm :-)
<nixternal> i wear special glasses..and i talk to my computer...that way there i don't have to right click ;)
<nixternal> people call me...
<nixternal> RETARDED!!!
<nixternal> ;)
<linuxmonkey> Retarded: To be held back
<nixternal> with the retarded...you have to insert the carlos mencia "dee de dee" sound 
<crimsun_> that wiki page is conspicuously missing references to ponies.
<LaserJock> doh, I knew I was missing something
<LaserJock> I'll put it there along with a prominent link to BddebianIsAGod
<nixternal> hehe
<nixternal> crimsun_ and his ponies ;)
<linuxmonkey> were can I find references to the official colors for art
<nixternal> www.crimsuns-ponies.com
<nixternal> there aren't any listed on the ArtTeams pages?
<linuxmonkey> no not that im fiding
<linuxmonkey> finding
<nixternal> if you can't find any..talk to kwwii..he should know
<linuxmonkey> found it
<nixternal> LaserJock: if you see bug posts from RichJohnson, that is me btw ;)
<nixternal> anyone of you actually
<nixternal> so if it is bogus, feel free to holler at me in here... ;)
<LaserJock> nixternal: ok
<LaserJock> hehe, you can also right-click and open in a new tab ;-)
<nixternal> ya that too ;)
<nixternal> i always keep one finger near the ctrl or shift keys for this...as i hate being drug away from a page
<nixternal> could just be my personal preference also
<mdke> nixternal: it's kinda intentional to open links in the same window you click them. That is what most users expect to happen
<LaserJock> I know what you mean though nixternal, I just get used to using right click or keyboard shortcut
* mdke hugs middle click
<LaserJock> well, try as the might, Apple has not figure out how to do middle click very well
<LaserJock> even right click is a little iffy
<LaserJock> oh heah, I just tried it out in Camino and it worked great
<LaserJock> you are free to ignore me now :-)
* LaserJock really, really needs to get Ubuntu on this thing
* mdke sleeps
<mdke> LaserJock: have fun in paris
<LaserJock> mdke: thanks, I'll try. You going to try Team Speak?
<mdke> we shall see. I don't have any headsets tho
<LaserJock> mdke: actually, I wonder if they'll keep that server up, it would be great to use for a doc sprint 
<mdke> good point
<LaserJock> you should mention it to somebody (or maybe I can in Paris)
<LaserJock> I hadn't thought of that before
<mdke> do so
<mdke> and if you see Znarl, poke him in the ribs
<LaserJock> hehe
<LaserJock> more like give him a bribe
<mdke> I am poking him daily
<LaserJock> good
<mdke> for the last three days he has said that today would be the day :/
<mdke> today he even backed up the server in preparation
<LaserJock> hmm, is it just Paris preperations?
<mdke> then something always comes up
<mdke> dunno
<nixternal> [19:03]  <LaserJock> you are free to ignore me now :-)
<nixternal> lol
<nixternal> sorry...i went to eat unexpectedly
<Madpilot> hi rob
<rob> hi Madpilot 
<skorasaurus> hi.
<skorasaurus> [ack, the last meeting was yesterday, missed out on it.)
<skora> i have a suggestion about directions on the website (specifically http://www.ubuntu.com/desktop and Ready to try Ubuntu?)
<skora> where should i direct this suggestion to ?
<Laser_away> I think there might be a webmaster email address at the bottom of the website
<skora> on the bottom of the page, its just a link to the canonical site.
<Laser_away> hmm
<skora> on after the dialog 'ready to try?' it tells people to download the livecd and test ubuntu without changing anything. There's a link there to the /download page, but I think people can easily get confused which one is the live cd that won't change their computer (desktop or server)
<skora> I've encountered this problem with a family member who took up my suggestion to try ubuntu.
<Laser_away> skora: well, you could email the ubuntu-doc mailing list to at least alert people. I'm not sure what the proper procedure for website bugs is
<skora> thanks Laser_away
<Laser_away> sorry I'm not more help, the website is not under doc team control but a couple of the doc team people can make changes I believe
<klepas> Madpilot: i'll give you a buzz later via email
<Madpilot> klepas, sure
<klepas> about the wiki re-organisation via email
<klepas> thanks! :)
<klepas> that's it for me
<klepas> night
#ubuntu-doc 2006-06-18
<Madpilot> hi M-Wei|OSX 
<M-Wei|OSX> Madpilot: What's ABAT?
<Madpilot> ABAT? Not sure - what context?>
<M-Wei|OSX> and is it developed by IBM architect or using IBM machine?
<M-Wei|OSX> === Daily Kernel Builds For Edgy ===
<M-Wei|OSX> Ben Collins, Ubuntu kernel hacker extraordinaire, has started automated daily builds of the edgy kernel (2.6.17 based). These daily kernel builds will be used to get better results from IBM's ABAT suite (Ben will have more details on this later) and enable users to help identify more precise points of regressions during edgy development. More testing means even more stable kernels.
<Madpilot> hmm... no idea
<M-Wei|OSX> Who else knows?
<Plug> It appears to be a testing framework for the Linux kernel
<Madpilot> try #ubuntu-devel, that's where the coders & hackers hang out
<Plug> http://abat.linux.ibm.com/ is down atm
<M-Wei|OSX> Plug: It seems that it is built by IBM
<Plug> automated basic acceptance test
<Plug> aha. https://sourceforge.net/projects/abat/
<Plug> now why didn't Google turn that up for me the first time?
<M-Wei|OSX> Plug: Umm, I am a junior translator.=_=
<M-Wei|OSX> Plug: I've seen that page.
<Plug> My inferrence from what I've just read
<Plug> is that you build each new kernel
<Plug> and then test it with ABAT
<Plug> and you will see if something that worked yesterday, failed today
<Plug> and if so, you can easily find out which change broke it.
<M-Wei|OSX> Does the kernel be sent to IBM?
<Plug> No.
<mgalvin> Plug: you feel like adding a very brief description of it to UWN Issue 3?
<mgalvin> similar to what you just described
<M-Wei|OSX> What does "IBM's ABAT" mean.
<Plug> I read that to mean ABAT is a framework, and IBM have released a set of tests, using it, for the kernel
<Plug> mgalvin: Sure, if you like, but everything I know about it I learnt in the last 10 mins in order to answer M-Wei|OSX's question :)
<mgalvin> :)
<Plug> I'll just confirm I haven't been spouting complete lies, and then I'll write a paragraph or two.
<Plug> Is UWN colllated on the wiki?
<mgalvin> i just didn't want to steal your explanation :)
<mgalvin> yup
<Plug> ok, point me at it
<mgalvin> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuWeeklyNewsletter
<M-Wei|OSX> Is it run on IBM machine or ONLY the ABAT program designed by IBM?
<mgalvin> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuWeeklyNewsletter/Issue3
<mgalvin> M-Wei|OSX: it runs on anything, its just something IBM developed
<mgalvin> as mentioned in UWN, Ben will be providing us with more info in the near future
<M-Wei|OSX> mgalvin: That's the answer I need...
<mgalvin> i am not certain exactly what he is doing with it
<mgalvin> ok cool
<M-Wei|OSX> Then, when will the Issue3 be released completely?
<mgalvin> M-Wei|OSX: shortly, i am working on finishing it now
<mgalvin> as is tonight
<mgalvin> as in rather
<mgalvin> i will certainly cover it more in depth in coming weeks as Ben fills us in
<mgalvin> i know as much as you do at this point :)
<M-Wei|OSX> mgalvin: umm....I've translated the older version of this issue to Chinese.
<mgalvin> ah cool!
<Plug> I've added a short explanation inline, mgalvin.  
<mgalvin> i try to release them every saturday night so they arrive for people as a sunday paper type of thing
<mgalvin> (saturday night US time anyway)
<mgalvin> Plug: thanks!
<Plug> Let me know if you want anything else looked at.  (See, I'm already in Sunday, so I have free time ;)
<mgalvin> will do :)
<mgalvin> 10:30 sat night here :)
<M-Wei|OSX> mgalvin: Sunday 10:35 AM in TW
<M-Wei|OSX> :)
<mgalvin> :)
<Plug> no one is ever more in the future than me
<M-Wei|OSX> Plug: what time is it in your region?
<Plug> 2:36pm on Sun
<M-Wei|OSX> Plug: oh....
<Plug> told you.  New Zealand is good like that.  But being in the future means that travelling anywhere fun takes 12 hours on a plane
<M-Wei|OSX> Plug: oh.~@_@
<M-Wei|OSX> from TW?
<Madpilot> there's no teleporters in the future, Plug? ;)
<Plug> Not this far into it anyway!
<M-Wei|OSX> (In addition, my cousin lives in NZ.)
<Plug> While we're on the topic, I'm a demon wiki gnome
<Plug> should I just jump into CategoryCleanup?
<Madpilot> please do!
<Plug> was it decided to drop Howto off page names, f.ex AddingRepositories(Howto) ?
<Plug> Also, if I want to define words inside a wiki page, is linking externally ok?
<Plug> f.ex our LUG wiki has this to say about a daemon:
<Plug> http://www.wlug.org.nz/Daemon
<Plug> and I think in the context of the page I'm editing, explaining what a daemon is would be handy
<Madpilot> should be fine - and yes, we've been dropping "Howto" from new page names
<Plug> But not renaming old ones?
<Madpilot> eventually, maybe
<Madpilot> especially for stuff like that AddingRepos page, it's linked to from all over - even a substandard URL shouldn't change
<Plug> you can use a redirect to a new page name however?
<Plug> phew!
<Plug> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ClamAV
<Plug> one down. ;)
<klepas> Madpilot: ping
<nixternal> Plug: i believe you and i are talking via email concerning unison ;)
<Plug> yep
<nixternal> ok
<nixternal> haha
<Plug> I should really have connected myself with the nick somewhere along the way
<nixternal> i just seen your post up there about clamav and you just said you were working on it in the email
<nixternal> hehe
<nixternal> i haven't seen you around before...i see you recently started helping out...welcome to the team..and thanks for the help
<nixternal> we definately need it
<nixternal> tonight im just scouring some of the small pages to work on
<Plug> btw, You don't need the =Foo= at the top of the page; the wiki puts that there for you
<Plug> don't feel bad if it seems I'm running around cleaning up after you.  My local wiki has a guy that does that to me all the time :)
<nixternal> i have gotten used to doing it that way because of the style guide
<Plug> Well, I could be totally wrong
<nixternal> no it is good...im far from perfect...and if you can make it better all the power
<Plug> or the style guide might need a look too :)
<nixternal> i follow the style guide, as it seems when i submit my changes they always get approved then via the higher ups
<Plug> I might have a different idea about how CategoryCleanup should be applied (reading now it seems pages should be approved before moving them out)
<nixternal> exactly...email the ubuntu-docs and let them know you made the changes and upon approval to remove it from CategoryCleanup
<Madpilot> klepas, pong
<Plug> in that case, someone should check over Shockwave too. :)
<nixternal> am i correct Madpilot about that...we shouldn't remove it from CategoryCleanup, but rather email the ubuntu-docs list and let them know changes have been made and then one of the admins will remove it from CatCleanup if approved?
<Madpilot> more or less, yeah
<Madpilot> given that I'm more or less one of our wiki admins ;)
<Plug> Expect some deluge then. :)
<Plug> perhaps having another category would be better then
<Plug> (CategoryHasBeenCleanedUp-esque)
<Madpilot> we've also got CategoryNeedsExpansion, for stuff that's OK but not complete enough - to reduce some of the load on CatCleanup
<nixternal> i thought category cleanup went down a little..i see someone went through and added more... ;)
<Madpilot> at one point there were only ~170 pages in Cleanup - we've been over 300 for months now :|
<Plug> hmmm
<Plug> one a day won't make too much of a hit then
<Plug> but if ~30 people all do one a day... :)
<Madpilot> it all adds up
<nixternal> one month wouldn't make much of a hit...because as we clean them, someone is coming right behind and making more that needs to be cleaned up
<Plug> (I also have to contend with http://www.wlug.org.nz/InNeedOfRefactor !)
<Madpilot> Plug, is that your LUGwiki's version of CatCleanup?
<Plug> yeah, basically
<Madpilot> heh
<Plug> (our wiki is very old and all-encompassing)
<Madpilot> Plug & nixternal - nice edits to AddUsers
<Plug> AddUsers was just nixternal
<Plug> (I removed a whole line)
<Plug> I'm interested in feedback on Shockwave and ClamAV though
<Madpilot> one thing: if you're adding screenshots, reset your desktop theme to the default one, so we get uniform screenies
<nixternal> why thank you
<Madpilot> the only problem with AddUsers currently is that there's two different themes visible in the screenshots - and neither is Dapper's default...
<nixternal> true
<nixternal> now that you said that...i am going to turn a machine into a dually default then
<nixternal> and use it just for those reasons
<nixternal> truthfully...nix the images..they don't need to really be there
<nixternal> as you can follow along quite easily to the write up
<Madpilot> nah, screenshots are good
<Plug> creating a new account should give you default screenshots
<Madpilot> ...although several members of the docteam disagree with me on the value of screenshots...
<nixternal> ya...but i don't like logging out of either of my 2 main systems
<nixternal> or switchin' user
<Plug> Ubuntu lets you log in as another, reasonably easily
<Madpilot> System->Quit->Switch User
* nixternal uses the AddUserHowto ;)
<nixternal> lol
* robitaille really like fast-user-switch-applet
<nixternal> kubuntu you just do switch user
<nixternal> no quit and all those other menus ;)
<nixternal> omg default themes == ewwww
<Madpilot> not a fan of Ubuntu Dapper orange? ;)
<Plug> What, you don't like... yeah. ;)
<nixternal> im a KDE guy
<nixternal> and the orange/brown has actually grown on me
<Madpilot> omg kde == ewwww ;)
<nixternal> when i first tried it a couple of years ago..i ran from Ubuntu laughing, kicking, and screaming
<nixternal> like an idiot i ran back to SuSe and Slackware
<nixternal> KDE == the winnah
<Madpilot> I pulled AddUsers out of CatCleanup - nice work
<nixternal> thx
<Madpilot> one down, 366 to go :)
<nixternal> sweet...the switch users works great
<nixternal> hahaha
<nixternal> i am making a scribus fathers day card right now
<Madpilot> actually, a lot of the crap in Cleanup shouldn't be there
<nixternal> thank god dad is a geek...cuz i totally forgot about tomorrow
<nixternal> im making him a dvd card ;
<nixternal> my daughter made a geek card i guess using scribus....cuz she runs edubuntu
<Plug> Madpilot: got a second to check Shockwave and ClamAV?
<Madpilot> just did, actually
<Madpilot> they're both out of Cleanup already, I think?
<Madpilot> I made a couple of format changes to ClamAV - nothing major
<Plug> Yeah, by virtue of me not knowing I shouldnt move them myself
<Madpilot> don't worry about it, really
<nixternal> wiki and documentation editing/work is way more fun then bug triage ;)
<robitaille> nixternal:  some people feel the exact opposite :)
<nixternal> hehe im sure they do
<nixternal> i did a little traige tonight and found myself falling asleep at times
<nixternal> i have kate open with all my default responses...i had to paste at least 20 times tonight ;)
<Plug> Whats the format for a #REDIRECT nixternal?
<Plug> I'll fix up unison.
<nixternal> #redirect PageName
<Plug> so I had it right already. :)
<Plug> it just didn't give any indication on edit that it would do anything
<Madpilot> yup
<Madpilot> save it, it'll say "This page now redirect to Foo"
<Madpilot> redirects, even
<LaserJock> hi jsgotangco 
<LaserJock> funny meeting you here
<jsgotangco> haha
<jsgotangco> hi
#ubuntu-doc 2007-06-11
<Madpilot> Gah. Irritating when people come on with "My Grand Project", and dismiss all suggestions to join existing ongoing projects by repeating how cool they imagine their Grand Project to be...
<nixternal> link? :)
<Madpilot> just a guy in #ubuntu who wants to start something called "The Ubuntu Experiment"
<Burgundavia> umm?
<Madpilot> file under yet-another-intro-for-new-users
<nixternal> ahhh, ya...another great flop
<Burgundavia> ahh
<Burgundavia> well, we do need to solve some problems, but the devs are making our work irrelevant
<jlk> Is there a reason why there are no example images in help.ubuntu.com wiki?
<willvdl> jlk, you mean like screenshots?
<jlk> yes, screenshots
<bdmurray> Is there any documentation about when you would need to reinstall Ubuntu?
#ubuntu-doc 2007-06-12
<Burgundavia> bdmurray: not that I know of
<bdmurray> Burgundavia: I'm surprised at the number of people who reinstall.  I'm not sure what situations it would be necessary in.
<Burgundavia> repairing an install is a headache
<Burgundavia> I reinstall just to test the default and to see if the bug is because of constatn updating
<coNP> hi, can someone fix http://www.ubuntu.com/products/whatIsubuntu/releases?
<coNP> it is a bit outdated I guess
<coNP> in case a bug report is needed, please indicate, which lp-product
<JanC> *ugh*
<JanC> seems like a lot of docs linked from https://help.ubuntu.com/community/DrivesAndPartitions use device names instead of UUID in instructions for fstab   :-(
<Admiral_Chicago> JanC: the bot links to tuxfile which uses /dev/
<Admiral_Chicago> !partion
<ubotu> Sorry, I don't know anything about partion - try searching on http://bots.ubuntulinux.nl/factoids.cgi
<Admiral_Chicago> opps, let me get the link
<JanC> Admiral_Chicago: so the bot needs a change too ?
<Admiral_Chicago> http://www.tuxfiles.org/linuxhelp/fstab.html
<Admiral_Chicago> thats what fstab says
<Admiral_Chicago> i think it needs to like to something better
<Admiral_Chicago> i just follow tuxfiles because all that UUID thing is hard to read for me...
<JanC> Ubuntu needs UUID/LABEL, not /dev/*, or systems will break because of the libata migration
<JanC> especially PATA disks
<JanC> but also with some SATA controllers IIRC
<Admiral_Chicago> JanC: i know, it also makes it difficult when upgrading kernel with /dev/*
<Admiral_Chicago> but we aren't linking to good enought tools
<JanC> a GUI tool to edit fstab correctly would be nice...  ;)
<Admiral_Chicago> i don't mind doing it CLI but i haven't seen a good guide :(
<Admiral_Chicago> JanC: wouldit be neccesary to filed a bug report?
<JanC> just "sudo vol_id -u /dev/blah" and then put UUID=<theuuid> instead of the device name...
<JanC> Admiral_Chicago: you mean like: "all documentation should be checked for correct information about fstab" ?
<Admiral_Chicago> i'll try that.
<Admiral_Chicago> well i'll go through the latest svn and see about it.
<Admiral_Chicago> JanC: i'll do it in a bit.
<JanC> these are community docs, so it's a wiki, I don't think the official docs have anything about fstab
<JanC> ?
<Admiral_Chicago> i'll have to check after I get ready. bbiab
#ubuntu-doc 2007-06-13
<nattfodd> hi
<nattfodd> I thought you might be interested by http://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic-t-564740.html
<nattfodd> (it's a "class" we're doing tomorrow on initiation to the command-line, and it isn't gentoo specific)
<nattfodd> any idea if/where/how I could advertise this?
<nattfodd> in the ubuntu world, I mean
<nattfodd> I'm sorry, I got disconnected
<nattfodd> did anyone answer?
<crimsun> nattfodd: fridge-devel@
<nattfodd> crimsun: what's that?
<crimsun> it's a mailing list
<crimsun> you can also check the irc channel
<nattfodd> but what's the fridge thing is my question :)
<crimsun> http://fridge.ubuntu.com
<Madpilot> Ubuntu community news site
<nattfodd> ok thanks
<nattfodd> I made the request on the irc channel, let's see what happens
<ubotu> New bug: #120206 in ubuntu-doc "control center" [Undecided,Unconfirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/120206
<jlk> I been following the instructions at: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/Repository  and just finished a svn checkout.  Tried to continue with the edit example ~/ubuntu-doc/ubuntu/desktopguide/C/getting-started.xml but the file doesn't exist!  Help!
<nixternal> jlk: hehe, you can edit any other file if you wish that is .xml the same way...if you want to edit that one particular file, you would need to check out the Edgy branch, as that was the last one with the desktopguide
<jlk> joking aside, I just want to confirm that the on-line documentation/wiki is not accurate.  Will amend as per my experience.
<nixternal> I am sure it is a little out of date and needs to be updated
<ubotu> New bug: #55913 in ubuntu-docs (main) "Firefox default Homepage should now reffer to 6.06.1" [Medium,Confirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/55913
#ubuntu-doc 2007-06-14
<viveksri15> hi all.
<viveksri15> i wanted to get involved in documentation project
<viveksri15> I want to crosscheck other documents for errors
<viveksri15> any help how and where to start
<viveksri15> ?
<viveksri15> any one here?
<Admiral_Chicago> j1mc: are we doing the Customizing Desktop type section?
<Admiral_Chicago> i'll be starting multimedia section now
<j1mc> Admiral_Chicago: not sure what you mean about the Customizing Desktop section.
<Admiral_Chicago> like a section devoted to multiple desktops, changing themes, etc
<j1mc> let's wait on that to see what if anything emerges that will help with themes and the like.
<j1mc> ... installing themes.
<j1mc> sound good?
<Admiral_Chicago> oh yea
<Admiral_Chicago> i remember there was some talk about installing from tarball and the lik
<Admiral_Chicago> sounds good.
<j1mc> hello.  when i attempt to validate the ubuntu-doc trunk after making a few changes, i get the following: http://pastebin.ca/567057
<j1mc> i'd like to submit a patch for ubuntu-docs.  could someone let me know what that means, and if i should be concerned?
<j1mc> nm, i needed to install libxml2-utils.
* Starting logfile irclogs/ubuntu-doc.log
* Starting logfile irclogs/ubuntu-doc.log
#ubuntu-doc 2007-06-15
<somerville32> Is anyone up to date on the svn->bzr discussion?
<mdke_> morning all
<bhuvan> morning mdke_
#ubuntu-doc 2007-06-16
<Burgundavia> http://www.onlamp.com/pub/a/onlamp/2007/06/14/why-do-people-write-free-documentation-results-of-a-survey.html
<Burgundavia> mdke_: ^
<shirish> hi all, anybody around?
<nixternal> hello!
<shirish> guys I want to write some documentation & need help, if anybody can
<shirish> hi nixternal good you are around
<shirish> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/ReportingBugs
<shirish> this is the document I'm in the process of editing, I wanna add the bit about reporting bugs upstream & one of the tools for it.
<nixternal> yup, that would bdmurray's baby there. when it has to do with bug reporting he is DA MAN!
<nixternal> that looks like it would be a good addition truthfully
<shirish> nixternal: it would be great if he was around, unfortunately he is not, so I just wanna know for e.g. what the correct title & stuff
<nixternal> what tool are you referring to?
<shirish> reportbug
<shirish> & the newer reportbug-ng
<shirish> it's the tool used by debian to do stuff
<shirish> to report bugs
<nixternal> hrmm, I thought there was a reportbug doc somewhere..but I might be thinking of Debian
<nixternal> I don't use reportbug anymore, I have a couple of Debian templates now in KMail that I use, much quicker
<shirish> nixternal: there is no doc. atleast in the community space with the name reportbug
<nixternal> also, the reportbug in Ubuntu sends to Ubuntu and not Debian I believe
<shirish> with the title reportbug
<shirish> nixternal: the one in gutsy sends to debian using ubuntu as SMTP server, maybe drop a copy there.
<shirish> meaning a copy would go upstream and one would go to ubuntu, so I believe
<nixternal> shirish: I would create a reportbug page, and then add a link to the "ReportingBugs" page maybe
<nixternal> ahh, the one in Feisty sent it to Ubuntu I believe
<shirish> nixternal: that would be the best way I guess, but I need to know how it really works, we wouldn't want people to have wrong documentation
<shirish> perhaps I put the question on ubuntu-devel & they can have some correct answers.
<nixternal> there or ubuntu-motu@lists.ubuntu.com
<nixternal> definitely would be a great doc to have...I would also look at creating a page on wiki.ubuntu.com maybe that would refresh to help.ubuntu.com...but that doesn't have to be done now...MOTU can link to it in one of their pages
<shirish> nixternal: I could join ubuntu-motu@lists.ubuntu.com but don't think I can give much help there besides this one thing
<nixternal> shirish: you should be able to send an email to the list, and at the bottom ask them to CC you since you aren't a member on that list
<shirish> ah, that would be nice
<nixternal> then again, everyone on -motu is also on -devel-discuss as well
<nixternal> -bugsquad is another list as well :)
<shirish> that's true, I just signed up for bugsquad today so that should also be not an issue
<shirish> signed up as in the mailing list
<shirish> :)
<shirish> nixternal: I have started on the doc, atleast till I know, the rest can follow later
<ssam> i'd like to clean up the powerpc information on the wiki. what is the best way to organise it? should i have a PowerPC page that links to things like PowerPC/FAQ PowerPC/Downloads PowerPC/Installation etc?
<shirish> nixternal: you up m8?
<GoRedhat> hi
<jjesse> hi
#ubuntu-doc 2007-06-17
<ssam> i'd like to clean up the powerpc information on the wiki. what is the best way to organise it? should i have a PowerPC page that links to things like PowerPC/FAQ PowerPC/Downloads PowerPC/Installation etc?
<mdke_> ssam: sometimes we use subpages, but not for whole architectures
<mdke_> for topics like installation, we do it - https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Installation/PowerPC
<ssam> so should there just be lots pages with names like PowerPCFAQ
<mdke_> no, I think that would be a bad idea
<mdke_> you should try and integrate material with the existing material on topics; for example if there is a topic which has specific powerpc related issues, you could make a subpage (as with Installation) or include a note in the main page
<mdke_> have a look at the homepage to see how things are organised
<ssam> but there are quite a lot of powerpc specific issues, especially now that its a community port
<mdke_> sure. It's the same with amd64
<ssam> it would be nice to have somewhere to point people to show that ubuntu on powerpc still exists
<mdke_> you could create a page simply called "PowerPC" and include some basic information about the architecture and links with pointers to other helpful material
<ssam> the main ubuntu web site does not give any clue where to find downloads of powerpc for example
<mdke_> that's a bug
<ssam> its been reported
<mdke_> yes, that's what I mean
<ssam> ok, i'll do a PowerPC page
<mdke_> as for downloading, it's mentioned on this page - maybe you can point to that. https://help.ubuntu.com/community/ProcessorArch
<mdke_> (that page is linked from the front page)
<ssam> also the PowerPCFAQ is a bit of a mess. i think it should have less information on it, and be more a collection of links to useful information, does that sound sensible
<mdke_> yes, absolutely sensible. I'm not a fan of FAQs at all, in fact
<ssam> thank you for your advise
<mdke_> thanks for contributing :)
#ubuntu-doc 2008-06-09
<Old_Soldier> hello nickellery
<nickellery> hey there Old_Soldier
<Old_Soldier> nick I sent out an email about fixing the clustering page on the wiki i'll let you know if anything comes back on that
<nickellery> Old_Soldier, thanks, someone with a little bit of experience already volunteered, and hopefully he and anyone else can get that page up to date soon
<grobda24> Hello. New here so I just want to be clear about the Ubuntu style. I wrote an article ....
<grobda24> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/SharedCopyAndPaste
<grobda24> Is that clear enough. Not too technical ?
<grobda24> I want to write an article about laptop mode to show how to spin down hardrives on desktop systems. Should I differentiate between GUI only and command line, or keep that all on one page ?
<Old_Soldier> hey guys Im working on a docbook section but i get an error when i validate.  xref: validity error : IDREF attribute linkend references an unknown ID "modem"
<Old_Soldier> Im not sure how to fix that, and i didnt touch that part of the source.
<Old_Soldier> after further investigation the links are the same format and content as in the file located in /usr/shar/gnome/help/internet/C/basics.xml
<Old_Soldier> that file works correctly in yelp so i am going with the assumption that its just a pathing issue with validate.sh and yelp when i call the file frommy local bzr directory
#ubuntu-doc 2008-06-10
<mpt> hey hey
<Old_Soldier> hello mpt
#ubuntu-doc 2008-06-11
<linuxmonkey> hi guys
<linuxmonkey> no one alive tonnight?
<Rocket2DMn> nobody actually talks in here, its weird
<linuxmonkey> wow
<Old_Soldier> lol yeah ive seen it go 24+ hours without someone talking
<linuxmonkey> ive been away for over a year and came back and this place used to have chatter all the time
<linuxmonkey> now im spooked
<Rocket2DMn> well youre just in time, because the chatter will be picking up again
<Rocket2DMn> we're trying to start on an overhaul of the wiki
<linuxmonkey> cool
<Old_Soldier> lol the invasion of ubuntu-doc by the beginner team will make it noisy in here
<linuxmonkey> considering im still listed active on wiki team I may as well be
<Rocket2DMn> linuxmonkey, are you on the ubuntu-doc mailing list?
<Old_Soldier> we've already made the mailing list get a bit more busy
<linuxmonkey> oh yeah i am Rocket2DMn just got to remember my login to the email its all sent to
<Rocket2DMn> when was the last time you checked it?
<linuxmonkey> well eons ago. like i said i just got back
<Rocket2DMn> wow, there's gonna be a lot of email in there for you
<linuxmonkey> im sure of it
<Rocket2DMn> linuxmonkey, in short, a handful of members from the Ubunut Forums Beginners Team are going to be helping the doc team
<Rocket2DMn> a few of us are already here, a few more will show up later, after we have a meeting
<Rocket2DMn> later = a week or so
<Rocket2DMn> we are really pushing to get the online documentation up to date, and cleaning out old and incomplete documentation
<linuxmonkey> ok cool
<linuxmonkey> i got 4k emails.wow
<Rocket2DMn> yeah, it's gonna be intense
<Old_Soldier> lol 4K emails. masss delete!
<linuxmonkey> I keep it all
<Rocket2DMn> seriously, though you may want to read some from the last week or so
<linuxmonkey> Gmail. why not.lol they automatically get tagged
<Rocket2DMn> a fair amount of mail going back and forth between Matthew East, Charles Davis, and me (Connor Imes)
<linuxmonkey> i see that
<linuxmonkey> i feel like such a new guy, havent done anything for over a year
<Rocket2DMn> thats ok, there is no shortage of things to do
<linuxmonkey> i can see that, its like ridding a bike, after a while of not riding one you may crash a few times however someone is always willing to show you again how its done.
<linuxmonkey> Rocket2DMn: do you see my reply to the email?
<Rocket2DMn> got it linuxmonkey
<Rocket2DMn> im about to email out about what i did today
<linuxmonkey> i really have to change the email address I use. used to be KDE only but have since been using gnome and kde but mostly gnome
<linuxmonkey> cool
<Old_Soldier> added to my address book :)
<linuxmonkey> what do you use for your email? just use web or program on linux>
<Old_Soldier> i use evolution
<linuxmonkey> its what i was thinking of using :)
<linuxmonkey> now im in trouble, Old_Soldier  added me to his address book
<seisen> you better run for the hills
<linuxmonkey> yeah really, maybe i should
<linuxmonkey> but i cant do that ive been away for too long
<linuxmonkey> its gonna take me a year to read all my emails.lol
<seisen> wow
<linuxmonkey> i got 19539 emails
<seisen> ya I think the most I ever had was 450
<linuxmonkey> this is what happens when you leave for a year+
<Old_Soldier> lol thats ok linuxmonkey i'll just bug Matthew and Dougie
<Old_Soldier> nickellery is safe now that I'm Dougie's padawan
<Old_Soldier> though i'll still pick his brains :)
<linuxmonkey> Old_Soldier:  feel free to bug me too. I may not be as much help as them but it my trigger my memory
<Old_Soldier> will do :)
<Old_Soldier> mostly right now im struggling with bzr. i've submitted a few patches but keeping my private copy of the doc branch in sync is confusing me
<linuxmonkey> keep struggling
<Old_Soldier> earlier today i gave up and deleted my lp branch redownloaded the main branch and applied only the patches that i wanted.
<linuxmonkey> lol
<seisen> hey at least bzr is faster now before hardy  was released it was slow as mollassas
<Old_Soldier> i couldnt do a pull because i had my own revisions
 * Old_Soldier shrugs
 * linuxmonkey is lost beyond thoughts
<Old_Soldier> i'll learn the hard way (or ask Dougie to walk me through it)
<Old_Soldier> hey linuxmonkey at least when you start going it will come back to you. its not like you are fresh meat here
<linuxmonkey> yeah right...lol im old beat up meat
<seisen> ewwww!!!!!!!
<linuxmonkey> and memory..well being forced to use windows for over a year. torture
<Old_Soldier> linuxmonkey: then you can work on the switching from windows docs
<Old_Soldier> hehe the pain is fresh in your mind and you remember stuff!
<linuxmonkey> after banging my head so hard i dont think i remember much.lol
<linuxmonkey> Rocket2DMn: you there?
<linuxmonkey> man i just realized i no longer have my pgp key :(
<Old_Soldier> oh man that bites
<linuxmonkey> very
<Old_Soldier> do you have a revocation key stashed?
<linuxmonkey> i got nothing, the flash drive i had it all on got ruined when it got ran over by a steam roller
<Old_Soldier> been there. not a steamroller... but yeah
<Old_Soldier> just make new keys and put them on LP
<linuxmonkey> yeah i got to, but man its a pain
<linuxmonkey> u wanna laught? Old_Soldier
<Old_Soldier> sure man i'm always good for a laugh
<linuxmonkey> https://launchpad.net/~linuxmonkey\
<linuxmonkey> oops
<linuxmonkey> https://launchpad.net/~linuxmonkey
<linuxmonkey> check that out, that dates to like 2 years ago
<Old_Soldier> hey it just looks like a page that hasn't been touched in two years :)
<linuxmonkey> lol yea
<linuxmonkey> but see me with the tatoo
<linuxmonkey> its 100% real not fake
<Old_Soldier> cool
<linuxmonkey> anyways time for me to watch some tv, afk :)
<Old_Soldier> later man take care
<Rocket2DMn> did you need something linuxmonkey ?
<linuxmonkey> Rocket2DMn: just a slap accross the head
 * Rocket2DMn slaps linuxmonkey 
<linuxmonkey> also reading the msg you had sent about the wiki
<Rocket2DMn> ah, ok
<linuxmonkey> i got a homepage but its not linked on help.ubuntu wich is good
<Rocket2DMn> thats good
<Rocket2DMn> i think what happens is some people put their names which autocreates a link, then somebody clicks on it and tries to create  apage b/c it says page does not exist
<linuxmonkey> lol
<Rocket2DMn> other people must have used some other system, b/c a lot of the pages i ran across looked the same
<linuxmonkey> I need to re-do my openpgp key :( i lost my original
<Rocket2DMn> ok goin afk for dinner, bbl
<Old_Soldier> let us know when you get it back up on LP linuxmonkey
<Old_Soldier> I like to keep my keyring up to date in case people sign their list messages
<linuxmonkey> let me redo my pgp, ill also need to resign the COC :(
<linuxmonkey> I just updated my email, since im doing my pgp key anyways.
<linuxmonkey> whats the pgp keyserver we should use?
<linuxmonkey> nvm think i got it
<linuxmonkey> Old_Soldier: wassup
<linuxmonkey> Ive just updated my key all over as well as my email :)
<Old_Soldier> cool
<Old_Soldier> you been a busy monkey lol!
<linuxmonkey> now i forget what to back up
<linuxmonkey> lol
<linuxmonkey> so that this never happens again
<Old_Soldier> back up your keyring and export your complete key too
<linuxmonkey> ok well u got me there. havent dont that in ages
<linuxmonkey> done*
<Old_Soldier> the keyring isnt so critical because you can always look up other peoples keys
<Old_Soldier> install seahorse it makes life easier
<Old_Soldier> you can export the key from its properties menu
<linuxmonkey> isnt it installed by default in 8.04
<Old_Soldier> hmm i dont remember tbh look at applications >accessories>passwords and encryption keys
<Old_Soldier> if its there thats what opens seahorse
<linuxmonkey> yeah it is
<linuxmonkey> can you send me a message to linuxmonkey@gmail.com and sign it. thanks :)
<Old_Soldier> sure. gimme a sec
<Old_Soldier> you dropping the kubuntu address?
<linuxmonkey> yeah its 2 years old and was all too specific to 1 distro
<linuxmonkey> ive allready set the new address in LP
<Old_Soldier> okay its on the way
<linuxmonkey> ok thats weird. it says valid signature, but cannot verify sender
<Old_Soldier> you have to put my key on your keyring then it will be valid and verified (if you sign the key or someone you trust has signed the key
<linuxmonkey> cool, its been a while.lol
<linuxmonkey> Old_Soldier: i just sent u mine
<linuxmonkey> Well I olove you all but I got to have some sleep, ill be back on tommorow after work
<Old_Soldier> later Terry have a good night
<bhuvan> 6
<wildman> hello and bye for now :)
<martijn_> hello
<martijn_> i was wondering if anyone is available to answer some questions
<Flare183> wb Jonothan
<Flare183> or jjesse
<martijn_> sorry.. wb?
<jjesse> thansk
<jjesse> same thing :)
<Flare183> I know
<jjesse> wewlcome back
<martijn_> haha ok :)
<martijn_> do you know where i can download the repository to start off with?
<jjesse> argh problems with silly ksnapshot
<jjesse> did you figure out how to download the repository?
<martijn_> no i didn't
<martijn_> but i just don't really get it
<martijn_> i found the deb http:/// blah blah repositories
<martijn_> so i should just add them and then i can download files in progress?
<martijn_> files = docs
<jjesse> bzr checkout lp:ubuntu-doc
<jjesse> we don't publish the .debs before string freeze if i recall correctly
<jjesse> check them out from bzr
<martijn_> ok, i'm feeling a bit out of my element :)
<martijn_> lp:ubuntu-doc?
<jjesse> do you have bazaar installed?
<jjesse> thats the version controlling software
<jjesse> so bzr checkout is the command to check out a bzr branch
<martijn_> i got it!
<martijn_> bit on the slow side today
<jjesse> and with bazaar and launch[ad integgrated
<jjesse> you can just do a bzr checout lp:ubuntu-docs
<martijn_> ok, that sounds nice
<martijn_> bazaar installed
<jjesse> https://code.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-core-doc/ubuntu-doc/ubuntu-intrepid
<martijn_> thank you very much!
<jjesse> np
<jjesse> so lp:ubuntu-doc replaces bzr checkout http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-core-doc/ubuntu-doc/ubuntu-intrepid
<jjesse> if i wanted to chckout kubuntu docs i would do a bzr checkout lp:~ubuntu-core-doc/ubuntu-doc/kubuntu-intrepid
<martijn_> ok
<martijn_> so now i got a lot of docs
<martijn_> and are they synchronised all the time?
<martijn_> or how does that work?
<jjesse> there is a group of people that have commit privileges
<martijn_> so they can upload them back?
<jjesse> and they commit .diffs sent to the mailing list plus their own commits
<jjesse> you need to keep your own branch updated
<martijn_> sounds like a very slick system :)
<jjesse> after successful diffs have been applied you can be granted commit acces
<martijn_> so i should just go on and read and edit on my own ?
<jjesse> yes you can take a look at the bugs filled
<martijn_> and i can commit my own diffs to the mailing list?
<jjesse> yes you can
<jjesse> then you can move into the ubuntu-doc-committers team
<martijn_> are you one yourself?
<jjesse> yes i am
<jjesse> i work on kubuntu docs
<jjesse> mostly
<martijn_> cool
<martijn_> when did you start with ubuntu-doc?
<martijn_> jjesse
<martijn_> I already figured out a lot
<martijn_> but do i really have to convert everything the hard way over and over again?
<martijn_> i mean all those sml files
<martijn_> xml
<jjesse> convert to what?
<jjesse> sorry been afk
<martijn_> ok
<martijn_> i installed docbook
<martijn_> and in the repository there are only .xml files
<martijn_> i open them and i get a html-ish languag which i can add
<jjesse> that is correct
<jjesse> so you can then open them in yelp
<jjesse> the help program for gnome
<martijn_> aha!
<martijn_> yelp :)
<jjesse> i don't kow exactly how
<jjesse> as i use kde
<martijn_> ofcourse
<martijn_> there is a folder called scripts
<martijn_> and when i run them i get something in yelp
<martijn_> but i can't use the links because it's pretty new maybe?
<jjesse> i don't know for sure how it works out in yelp
<martijn_> i can drag the xml files into yelp onced a window is opened
<martijn_> and then i can see it as it is supposed to be
<martijn_> but ok
<martijn_> nobody here who uses ubuntu?
<jjesse> don't know if they are active or not
<Old_Soldier> martijn_: your problem is how to open docbook files in yelp?
<martijn_> hi
<martijn_> well i can open them
<martijn_> but i need someone to explain to me how it all works from here
<Old_Soldier> from the command line yelp /fullpath/to/document.xml
<Old_Soldier> if you need to validate a doc
<martijn_> i can few everything but i can't find some explanation about how to review, edit etc
<martijn_> ok
<Old_Soldier> cd to the script dir
<martijn_> yes
<Old_Soldier>  then ./validate.sh /full/path/to/doucment.xml
<martijn_> ok i'll try that
<Old_Soldier> you have to use a full path
<Old_Soldier> also be aware that some documents will throw xref errors
<martijn_> what does that mean?
<martijn_> xref
<Old_Soldier> because the will only validate form the root doument of that section
<martijn_> ok
<martijn_> so they don't link up with the rest?
<Old_Soldier> well they do, but the script doesn't have that ability to vlidate them for some reason or another
<Old_Soldier> in those cases if there are no other errors in the xml i check it in yelp
<Old_Soldier> and if everything works then im satisfied... but im a newbie here so that may not be the best way
<martijn_> ok
<martijn_> but if you validate
<martijn_> you just check the code for errors?
<Old_Soldier> validating is just to make sure you didnt mess up the xml when you edited it
<Old_Soldier> so yes martijn_
<martijn_> clear
<martijn_> do you use a special xml editor?
<jjesse> martijn_: i just use kate
<jjesse> use something that has syntax highlighting
<Old_Soldier> i use bluefish but really you could use any text editor
<Old_Soldier> i think gedit has plugins for that if you are a Ubuntu guy martijn_
<martijn_> so what kind of changes do you make? what do you look for?
<martijn_> ok i will look for that
<Old_Soldier> typos. incorrect information, things that dont follow the documentation guides for style spelling grammar etc
<martijn_> ok thank you
<jjesse> martijn_: as intrepid gets closer to being done  we will start making more changes
<martijn_> much clearer now
<martijn_> what does everybody focus on right now then?
<jjesse> bugs that are reported
<jjesse> or reporting bugs adn then changing them
<martijn_> how is that different from changing the doc right now?
<martijn_> is it because we dont know what intrepid will look like?
<linuxmonkey> hey all
<linuxmonkey> anyone alive in here today? I feel so lost i need a kick start
<Old_Soldier> heyas linuxmonkey  how are ya today?
<linuxmonkey> Old_Soldier: good just got home from work and ate some  cold pizza
<Old_Soldier> cold pizza and warm beer lol
<linuxmonkey> aint that the truth
#ubuntu-doc 2008-06-12
<linuxmonkey> im so lost im not sure what I should work on to tell you all the truth, if someone finds ME, let me know
#ubuntu-doc 2008-06-13
<linuxmonkey> Good Morning/Evening/Night, hows everyone doing
<LinuxMonkey> wow that was fun, just wiped my system again to get rid of windows completely. didnt want the duel boot option :)
<josevitor> Guys, Ubuntu can resize vista ntfs partition? I on liveCD now and get this http://www.flickr.com/photos/josevitor/2574780512/
<josevitor> any1 can help me?
<LinuxMonkey> support channel is at #ubuntu
<LinuxMonkey> sup everyone
#ubuntu-doc 2008-06-14
<l3on> mdke: are you there?
<mdke> l3on: (In case I'm not around at the moment, please provide a bit of information about what you want and I will respond when I get back)
<LinuxMonkey> sup everyone
<sommer> yo
<LinuxMonkey> im bored.lol
#ubuntu-doc 2008-06-15
<Flannel> Is there any way to grab deleted content from a wiki page from the DB?  Anyone know who I'd contact?
<bimberi> Flannel: help.ubuntu.com/community wiki? If so, is there a "Page History" link visible (on the top left)?
<bimberi> That allows you to see prior versions of the page.
<Flannel> bimberi: wiki.ubuntu.com, and the problem is the page was deleted, and then another page was created in the same name.  And the history apparently only shows the most recent version
<bimberi> ah, ok.  Which page?
<Flannel> bimberi: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MarketingTeam/SpreadUbuntu
<Flannel> And any subpages, although if there are subpages, they're probably un-remade I imagine
<bimberi> Flannel: It's not this is it? https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MarketingTeam/Projects/SpreadUbuntu
<Flannel> Hmmm.  It looks like it is.  Wonder why the old redirect pointed to the URL sans /Projects/
<Flannel> Thanks a lot bimberi
<bimberi> Flannel: np.  Didn't answer your original question though. I would if I knew. :)
<Flannel> Yeah, I don't really care about the original question though, just the data ;)
#ubuntu-doc 2009-06-08
<mdke> nhandler, cody-somerville: I don't think that adding an entry to a previous changelog entry that's already in the archive is a good idea. I'd prefer to include new fixes with a future changelog entry
<nhandler> mdke: My mistake. I thought that was the currently in-progress entery.
<mdke> nhandler: no worries :)
#ubuntu-doc 2009-06-09
<Rocket2DMn> mdke, make a new forum thread about the doc team already =D
<Rocket2DMn> Wouldn't want to miss out on getting people involved over the summer
<nhandler> The "ubuntu-doc" project has now been renamed to "ubuntu-docs": https://answers.launchpad.net/launchpad/+question/73096
#ubuntu-doc 2009-06-12
<Flannel> Hmmm, anyone know what passwd -l breaks when re-locking the root account? (RootSudo now has other instructions for it)
<jrs> I have some some suggestion for the community wiki. Who do I contact for that?
<jpds> jrs: What kind of suggestion?
<jrs> Something that could be added
<jrs> Should be reviewed before adding
<jpds> Hmm, no. We just correct things that we don't like.
<jrs> Ok but i am far too insecure to edit stuff
<jrs> It is about the freeNX server
<jrs> There is a real great wiki on the site, but it doesn't handle key authentication over ssh. Since the ssh wiki explicitly advices key authentication this is a bit strange.
<jpds> Then, go ahead and add it :)
<jrs> It took me some hours to find how to do it and i guess it would be good if the wiki would be improved
<jrs> No i'm not experienced enough....
<jrs> well i posted in the forums, with a big warning. Maybe helps someone.
<Ultrublu> How can I find my user name/ password to open Ubuntu?
<ongolaBoy> hi.on MoinMoin can i use the macros RecentChange + FullSearch(specific pages) together ?
<ongolaBoy> hi.on MoinMoin can i use the macros RecentChange + FullSearch(specific pages) together ?
#ubuntu-doc 2009-06-13
<ubu-noob> does anyone know where I can read about the recent discussion regarding the inclusion of a slideshow in ubuquity for Karmic?
<Rocket2DMn> ubu-noob, https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-doc/2009-June/thread.html
<ubu-noob> Rocket2DMn: Thanks.  Also if I had some ideas to contribute to that project, how would I do so?
<ubu-noob> Could I join the mailing list?
<Rocket2DMn> sure, anybody can join the mailing list
<Rocket2DMn> i havent been following that particular discussion though
<ubu-noob> Will that allow me to reply to threads that I was not a part of?
<Rocket2DMn> i dont know how you can get the messages that have already been sent, though you should be able to reply to any followup emails that come through after you register
<ubu-noob> Rocket2DMn: Thanks.  I've found https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-doc  I guess that's where I'd sign up.  Then I can reply to existing threads or start my own, right?
<Flannel> In-Reply-To: header, if you can get the message ID of the previous one.  Also, just the subject stuff
<Flannel> But if the thread is old, it might be a good idea to just start a new thread about the same topic (just reference the old one in your email or whatnot)
<ubu-noob> Flannel: Thanks
#ubuntu-doc 2009-06-14
<duanedesign> After adding the new Tag to a page you remove the old Category reference. Is this correct?
<duanedesign> That is in reference to to the implementation on the help wiki of the new Tag system.
<mdke> duanedesign: yes, thanks
<Shane_Fagan> Hmmm help and support is still crashing when I start it
<Shane_Fagan> Im on karmic with all updates installed
<philbull> Hey guys, I'm at WOSCON
<philbull> Send anything you like this way
<philbull> List of common tasks that users might want to achieve: http://mail.gnome.org/archives/gnome-doc-list/2009-June/msg00006.html
<philbull> Feel free to suggest more
<billybigrigger> hello all
#ubuntu-doc 2010-06-14
<cjohnston> mdke: ping
<mdke> cjohnston: (In case I'm not around at the moment, please provide a bit of information about what you want and I will respond when I get back)
#ubuntu-doc 2010-06-16
<andrewmin> quick question: what's the difference between the Ubuntu Wiki and the help.ubunut.com/community site?
<dutchie> afaik, help.ubuntu.com/community is meant for actual help, while the wiki is meant for development docs and team organisation and such
<dutchie> i don't think that's followed to the letter though
<andrewmin> ok, but doesn't wiki.ubuntu.com host a lot of howto articles?
<andrewmin> are howtos generally supposed to be on the community or wiki?
<dutchie> i think this is where the "not being followed to the letter" bit kicks in, but I'm not 100% sure on that
<andrewmin> alright, thanks
<dutchie> probably best to see if someone who knows what they're talking about chips in :)
<andrewmin> if anyone else knows, feel free to say so :)
<synergetic> From what I've seen (and I'm just the casual observer, no one official), I think the wiki isn't -meant- to be howto articles as such. i think it was meant to be project summaries and organising and such and the howtos on help.ubuntu... but yeah, it's all sort of a jumble. i think this is something that people have been discussing, having a one-place which is organised with for how-tos and documentation
<andrewmin> ok
#ubuntu-doc 2010-06-17
<zkriesse> dutchie: ping
<trinikrono> hey has anyone noticed that the wiki.ubuntu.com/Teams has gone missing?
<Flannel> trinikrono: That page /seems/ to have been created on the third (as spam) and deleted the next day.
<trinikrono> so are they going to make it back, it looked important lol
<ubuntujenkins> is help.ubuntu.com updated more than once a cycle?
<ubuntujenkins> if anyone knows please ping me
#ubuntu-doc 2010-06-18
<Kangarooo> hello. can anybody help on one linking in page https://wiki.ubuntu.com/kangarooo ? theres subsection First Steps and there about apport i cant make correct link in apport page. anchor not working i tryd with spaces between names and also %20 instead of spaces nothing makes anchor work
<Kangarooo> in https://wiki.ubuntu.com/HelpOnLinking i read examples markup and ive done all correct only the example theres not about anchor with more then one name
<Kangarooo> how to make wiki page redirect to another page?
<cjohnston> mdke / cody-somerville / DarkwingDuck ping
<cody-somerville> pong
<cjohnston> hey cody-somerville... I'm looking for some help.. ;-)
<cjohnston> I'm trying to redo the page http://ubuntu.com/community
<cjohnston> I'm trying to get information on a bunch of the different ways to contribute to Ubuntu...
<cjohnston> I need someone to write something for the docs team for the new page..
<cjohnston> More information about what I need is: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CommunityContributePages
<cjohnston> The 'Developers' section can be used as a reference.
<cjohnston> Do you think that you might be able to write something for the Documenation authors section?
<cjohnston> jjesse: ping
<jjesse> pong
<cjohnston> Would you like me to show you the hack to fix your question?
<jjesse> which question?  sorry at work right now so
<jjesse> was that the ground control one?
<cjohnston> Ground Control / commit
<jjesse> ah
<jjesse> not now, don't have my ubuntu box up and running
<cjohnston> ok
<cjohnston> There is a hack.. its pretty easy
<jjesse> ok
<cjohnston> cody-somerville: is that something you could do for me?
<cjohnston> jjesse: you could you scroll up also and see if its something you could maybe work on? (community page)
<jjesse> sure can you email me at jjesse AT ubuntu DOT com to remind me?
<cjohnston> sure
<cjohnston> jjesse: sent.. thanks
<jjesse> cjohnston received thanks :)
<DarkwingDuck> cjohnston: pong
<cjohnston> DarkwingDuck: http://paste.ubuntu.com/451640/
<DarkwingDuck> cjohnston: Yes I can... Can you email me a reminder? I'm going out of town in a few and I can do it at the in-laws. david.wonderly@kubuntu.org
<cjohnston> sure..
<cjohnston> DarkwingDuck: sent
<DarkwingDuck> cjohnston: Thanks. I'll draft something up this weekend
<cjohnston> wonderful.. ty
#ubuntu-doc 2010-06-19
<Kangarooo> cjohnston: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CommunityContributePages in there is written 800px picture.. thats too long. standart needs to be smaller
<cjohnston> Kangarooo: I wasnt the one to make the spec
<Kangarooo> in this page https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CommunityContributePages section developers is too big bicture? should non standart info be deleted without checking who put that wrong size info(picture)?
#ubuntu-doc 2011-06-14
<j1mc> hey all
<j1mc> hey jjesse
<achiang> hello, i'm looking for a pointer on how to properly modify the help displayed by yelp (on an older version, lucid). specifically, i'd like to add a link to a PDF installed somewhere on the system.
<achiang> i'm getting lost in all the XML
 * achiang wonders if j1mc might have any clues. micahg said you might...
<j1mc> hi achiang
<achiang> hi
<j1mc> achiang: you want the ubuntu help to open a pdf for all ubuntu users, or you just want it on your own system?
<achiang> j1mc: well, we can assume it's just for me right now, that it's not really an upstreamable change.
<achiang> j1mc: but to talk in terms of code and patches, i'm looking at 04_new_ubuntu_layout.patch in yelp_2.30.0-0ubuntu2, and not seeing how to extend the examples there to add an extra link to a PDF file
<achiang> j1mc: i don't want to completely replace the help, actually. just add a new link that says, "hey, check this PDF out for more info"
<j1mc> achiang: well, we are really only doing bug-fixes on older releases... but... as for how to do it, i'd need to take a look at the file.
<j1mc> could you give me the file name?
<achiang> j1mc: right, so like i said, this isn't suitable for upstream...
<achiang> j1mc: i guess i don't really have a file name right now, just trying to understand the general technique. i guess we could assume /usr/share/doc/achiang/foo.pdf
<j1mc> still, the file name would be helpful
<achiang> ah, interesting, there is a file named /usr/share/gnome/help/system-admin-guide/C/system-admin-guide.pdf
<achiang> j1mc: we can use the above as an example?
<j1mc> achiang: i'm looking... thanks for your patience
<achiang> j1mc: i appreciate any help you can offer, so thank you!
<j1mc> achiang: if you want to include your link in the help browser, you'd want to do something like this:
<j1mc> <ulink url="file://path/to/file.pdf">open the file</ulink>
<j1mc> in the native docbook of the ubuntu help
<j1mc> but yelp isn't set up to look at your home directory by default
<j1mc> ... so ... i'd be wary of making changes to any text in your /usr directory
<j1mc> are you doing this just for yourself?
<achiang> j1mc: i think i understand what you are saying -- if i change the text in the /usr directory, and point it to a path in my home directory, the link won't work for other users?
<j1mc> well, that's one thing, but it's also just not recommended to modify content in the /usr directory
<j1mc> i mean, for a user to modify content in the /usr directory
<achiang> j1mc: right, got it
<achiang> j1mc: thank you for your help
<j1mc> do you know how to get the latest docbook sources for what you want to do? are you trying to build this out for other users?
<achiang> j1mc: well, i'm kinda working on a derivative distribution of sorts, so... it would be for other users eventually, but not via a PPA or a web page or anything like that
<j1mc> ok
<achiang> j1mc: i'm actually staring at the yelp package, but not entirely sure what to modify. it sounds like there is separate docbook source i could modify?
<j1mc> you can use that ulink feature to link to any file, though. you'd need to modify the docbook to do what you want to do, though.
<j1mc> best of luck... let us know if you have more questions
<j1mc> hi glatzor
<j1mc> hi MrChrisDruif
<MrChrisDruif> Aloha j1mc :)
<MrChrisDruif> How's it going?
<j1mc> :)
<MrChrisDruif> Well?
<j1mc> just saying hello
<MrChrisDruif> xD
<MrChrisDruif> And I'm just asking how it goes :P
<j1mc> oh, it is going fine, thanks. :)
<j1mc> you?
<MrChrisDruif> Pretty good :D
#ubuntu-doc 2011-06-17
<amit2011> hii
<amit2011> I joined  Ubuntu Documentation Contributors team on Launchpad. Now what is the next step?
<amit2011> I am already subscribed to mailing list.
<amit2011> Do I need to learn Mallard..??
<amit2011> any1.............
<shaunm> amit2011: maybe send an intro email to the list. not everybody is always in front of irc
<shaunm> if you want to work on the help that ships with ubuntu, then learning mallard would be a good idea
<shaunm> but you can contribute in other ways too, like on the wiki
<amit2011> shaunm: thnx
<Captainkrtek> Just saw the update package for Gnone-Docs :D
<Captainkrtek> nice work everyone!
#ubuntu-doc 2012-06-13
<artnay> bug 1006079 - should this be assigned to someone who takes care of help.ubuntu.com?
<ubot2> Launchpad bug 1006079 in ubuntu-docs "Use up-to-date translations at https://help.ubuntu.com/12.04/ubuntu-help/" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1006079
#ubuntu-doc 2012-06-16
<jerrin> I would like to report my experience based on an Ubuntu community documentation[Grub2/Passwords : https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Grub2/Passwords]
<jerrin> Under the section Protecting Menuentries, it's mentioned :  Superuser Only: menuentry 'Ubuntu, with Linux 3.2.0-24-generic' --class ubuntu -class os --users {
<jerrin> I tried this, but was grub showed me an error while booting
<jerrin> On enquiring in #grub channel, I came to know that the --users option expects an argument , and should actually be --users '' {
<jerrin> This solved my issue. I think the documentation needs to be updated ?
<jerrin> I was on a debian machine btw
#ubuntu-doc 2013-06-10
<bkerensa> ugh launchpad timing out when I need it to work
<bkerensa> go figure
<bkerensa> We will be in #ubuntu-meeting folks
<dsmythies> Is this where the doc meeting will be, in a few minutes?
<godbyk> dsmythies: It will be in #ubuntu-meeting
<kotux> hi dsmythies
<dsmythies> Then there will be confusion, because other notices say here.
<bkerensa> #ubuntu-meeting
<bkerensa> ^
<bkerensa> go there :)
<bkerensa> plz
<bkerensa> Agenda: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/MeetingAgenda
<godbyk> Looks like the ' Business' heading is mangled a bit.
<godbyk> not even sure if any of that still applies or not.
<bkerensa> probably not
<bkerensa> I through the agenda on top
<bkerensa> meetings were in-frequent before
<kotux> hey godbyk, I need to learn something
<godbyk> kotux: What's that?
<kotux> So, I worked on https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ubuntu-docs/+bug/1083937
<ubot2`> Ubuntu bug 1083937 in ubuntu-docs (Ubuntu) "Ubuntu Desktop Guide keyring folder location wrong" [Undecided,In progress]
<godbyk> Okay..
<kotux> I've made the fix and I would like to merge it.
<godbyk> Okay, so you've checked out the saucy branch and modified the file already?
<kotux> Yes
<godbyk> Have you committed and pushed your changes?
<kotux> That's what I would like to know
<kotux> :)
<godbyk> Okay.
<godbyk> In your saucy directory, run 'bzr status'.  What does that show?
<kotux> give me a sec
<kotux> bzr status
<kotux> modified:
<kotux>   ubuntu-help/C/tips-specialchars.page
<kotux>   ubuntu-help/C/user-forgottenpassword.page
<godbyk> Do the modifications for both pages apply to this bug or only the second page?
<kotux> the tips* page is for a bug I reported.
<kotux> No, only the second page page.
<godbyk> Okay. The next step will commit the second file changes to your local bzr repository.
<kotux> So I have two in queue for separate commits.
<godbyk> Run:
<kotux> But before I do that, is it possible I test the changes?
<godbyk> bzr commit --fixes lp:1083937 -m 'A note here describing your fix. LP: #1083937'
<ubot2`> Launchpad bug 1083937 in ubuntu-docs (Ubuntu) "Ubuntu Desktop Guide keyring folder location wrong" [Undecided,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1083937
<kotux> I've been trying it, but trying to convert .page into html was such a hassle.  It didn't render some images when I viewed it in Firefox.
<godbyk> I'm not sure if the validate script they mention applies to Docbook only or also to the Mallard stuff.
<godbyk> So for now, we'll just commit it and whoever merges it can glance at it to make sure it looks okay.
<kotux> Right, we could use a script that validates Mallard if it doesn't exist already.
<kotux> ok
<godbyk> Add that to our to do list. :)
<godbyk> Did the bzr commit command go okay?
<kotux> yes
<godbyk> Great
<godbyk> Now we're going to push the changes to a bzr repository on Launchpad.
<godbyk> Since you don't have direct commit access to the ubuntu-docs repository, you'll have to push it to your own.
<godbyk> Run the following:
<godbyk> bzr push lp:~thinkndev/ubuntu-docs/saucy
<pleia2> kotux: I didn't realize how many bugs there were, nice job
<kotux> thanks pleia2.  There certainly was an unbearable amount.
<godbyk> pleia2: Yeah, kotux has been blasting through them!
<godbyk> kotux: The push may take a while since it has to upload all the files to Launchpad.
<kotux> ok, btw, it's not going to reflect my tips-specialchars page right?
<godbyk> kotux: Correct. Those changes won't be reflected until you commit and push them.
<godbyk> kotux: Those changes will only exist on your local hard drive.
<kotux> But this is what happened:
<kotux> john@kotux:~/sdoc-1310/13.10_LP#1189280$ bzr commit --fixes lp:1083937 -m 'Updated the location of keyring folder. LP #1083937'
<kotux> Committing to: /home/john/sdoc-1310/13.10_LP#1189280/
<kotux> modified ubuntu-help/C/tips-specialchars.page
<kotux> modified ubuntu-help/C/user-forgottenpassword.page
<ubot2`> Launchpad bug 1083937 in ubuntu-docs (Ubuntu) "Ubuntu Desktop Guide keyring folder location wrong" [Undecided,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1083937
<kotux> Committed revision 215.
<kotux> john@kotux:~/sdoc-1310/13.10_LP#1189280$
<kotux> It committed both modified pages, then the push.  :(
<godbyk> kotux: Ah, whoops! My mistake.
<godbyk> I forgot to have you specify just the one file.
<godbyk> If you don't specify specific files, it commits everything by default.
<kotux> Yeah, no worries.  How do I backtrack?
<godbyk> We can roll that back, though.
<godbyk> See if 'bzr uncommit' works.
<kotux> 'roll back
<godbyk> It may not since you've pushed already.
<kotux> I was able to pull
<kotux> uncommit
<godbyk> Okay. What does 'bzr status' say now?
<kotux> back to
<kotux> john@kotux:~/sdoc-1310/13.10_LP#1189280$ bzr status
<kotux> modified:
<kotux>   ubuntu-help/C/tips-specialchars.page
<kotux>   ubuntu-help/C/user-forgottenpassword.page
<godbyk> Okay, run the same 'bzr commit' command as before but add 'ubuntu-help/C/user-forgottenpassword.page' to the end of the line so it only commits that one file.
<godbyk> Once you've committed just the one file, you can run 'bzr push' to push the changes to Launchpad.
<godbyk> You might get an error about diverged branches. If that happens, the simplest solution (in this situation, at least) is to delete your branch on Launchpad and then push a fresh copy again.
<godbyk> (Actually, you can try 'bzr push --overwrite' if you get an error.. that might be enough to push it through.)
<kotux> bzr push --overwrite worked
<godbyk> Okay, great.
<godbyk> Now find your branch on Launchpad and create a merge proposal.
<kotux> cool.  Should I specify a reviewer?
<godbyk> Nah, you can leave that blank.
<godbyk> It'll email all of us
<kotux> Ok, and in effect of the meeting today, I'm assuming you, ben, and doug will have commit rights.
<godbyk> Everyone on the -committers team can commit: https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-core-doc/+members#active
<kotux> nvm, you guys are succeeding mdke
<kotux> ok, guess I'm done for today.  Thanks for the help godbyk
<godbyk> kotux: Thanks for all your hard work!  I'm merging your changes in now, so you might get a couple emails.
#ubuntu-doc 2013-06-11
<shaunm> godbyk: yelp-check validate *.page
<shaunm> re: a script to validate mallard pages
<shaunm> also works on docbook files
<crhrabal> was the meeting tonight? I got confused by all the time zone confusion
<godbyk> shaunm: Ah, thanks!
<godbyk> crhrabal: Yeah, the meeting was a few hours ago.
<godbyk> crhrabal: You can read the logs and minutes here: http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2013/ubuntu-meeting.2013-06-10-22.00.html
<crhrabal> thanks ill check it out!
<littlegirl> Hey there, Is anybody who knows how to work with attachments in the wiki at their keyboard?
#ubuntu-doc 2013-06-12
<kotux> Hello.  I have a merge request pending for https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ubuntu-docs/+bug/1189280.  If someone can review it, that would help.  Thanks.
<ubot2`> Ubuntu bug 1189280 in ubuntu-docs (Ubuntu) "Grammar fix for tips-specialchars" [Undecided,In progress]
#ubuntu-doc 2013-06-13
<bkerensa> godbyk: Can you review https://code.launchpad.net/~thinkndev/ubuntu-docs/improved-lowpower/+merge/169099
<bkerensa> godbyk: also I plan on *fingers crossed* passing a rought draft of Getting Started to you on Friday
<bkerensa> and if you like what you see we will push it to mailing list for final comments and make any needed changes then move it to wiki
<godbyk> bkerensa: Yep. I'll take a look at the merge request.
<godbyk> bkerensa: I look forward to seeing your draft of the 'getting started' instructions, too.
#ubuntu-doc 2014-06-09
<GunnarHj> belkinsa: ping?
<Megabyte> Hello
<Megabyte> Guys, I have a little problem here
<Megabyte> I was reading Ubuntu's User Guide
<Megabyte> and I ran into this little fragment
<Megabyte> "The early GUIs were difficult to configure, clunky, and generally only
<Megabyte> used by seasoned computer programmers. In the past decade, however,
<Megabyte> graphical user interfaces have grown in usability, reliability, and appearance.
<Megabyte> Ubuntu is just one of many different Linux distributions."
<pleia2> Megabyte: which documentation is this? shipped on your system?
<pleia2> and which version :)
<Megabyte> What does "Ubuntu is just one of many different [...]" has to do with "the early GUIs?"
<Megabyte> pleia, this is "Getting Started With Ubuntu 13.10"
<Megabyte> Most current version
<pleia2> Megabyte: from ubuntu-manual.org ?
<GunnarHj> pleia2: The manual, in other words.
<Megabyte> pleia2, precisely so
<pleia2> Megabyte: ok, you want #ubuntu-manual
<pleia2> there are a couple manual people here, but that's the channel were more of them hang out :)
<knome> o hai pleia2
 * pleia2 hides
<Megabyte> pleia2, I think this content needs some more love
<Megabyte> pleia2, Some of the information is inaccurate, too
<pleia2> Megabyte: right, we don't work on the manual, you want to chat with the manual folks, you can also submit bugs here: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual
<GunnarHj> Megabyte: All the various docs need more love. Much more...
<pleia2> we work on help.ubuntu.com documentation
<Megabyte> pleia2, I'm not sure that is a "bug..."
<Megabyte> In the sense that it doesn't make things crash
<Megabyte> GunnarHj, I strongly believe that
<GunnarHj> Megabyte: It's a perfectly fine docs bug.
<pleia2> it's documentation, it doesn't need things to crash for it to be a bug
<Megabyte> pleia2, I think it's overstretching to call these "bugs"
<Megabyte> It also slows down the process of fixing them
<Megabyte> *it / the info
<pleia2> Megabyte: even so, please join #ubuntu-manual to chat with them about it, we're a different project
<GunnarHj> Megabyte: That's the term which is used on Launchpad. And it doesn't slow things down at all. On the contrary, it helps tracking the issues.
<Megabyte> pleia2, I'm already there, but no dice
<pleia2> ok
<Megabyte> GunnarHj, I'm trying to translate and update the info from the manual
<GunnarHj> Megabyte: Aha, great!
<Megabyte> GunnarHj, one person alone could do it... the problem is that the Ubuntu Manual is "assembled" in Launchpad, and automated with LaTeX
<Megabyte> In a complicated makefile way
<knome> pleia2, heh, not asking for anything.. this time.. yet
<Megabyte> This makes it hard to actually focus on writing and improving docs
<Megabyte> And adds extra layers of complexity
<Megabyte> GunnarHj, I'm using LibreOffice with document styles and looking at the PDF side-by-side
<belkinsa> GunnarHj, pong.
<GunnarHj> Megabyte: Are you a member of ubuntu-manual?
<GunnarHj> Hi belkinsa!
<Megabyte> GunnarHj, nope. I can't even talk to them, mostly
<Megabyte> (No one is there)
<belkinsa> What's up?  I was thinking of hosting the Hangout.
<GunnarHj> Megabyte: I'd suggest you join the team: https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-manual
<Megabyte> GunnarHj, That I've already done
<Megabyte> GunnarHj, Joining through Launchpad
<Megabyte> GunnarHj, But using Launchpad to translate this is overkill
<GunnarHj> Megabyte: One person who you should try to reach is godbyk (Kevin Godby)
<belkinsa> Then you can e-mail the mailing-list.
<Megabyte> GunnarHj, That's my whole point, actually
<Megabyte> GunnarHj, Ubuntu also lacks tools that would make localizing much more consisteny, like a multilingual glossary
<Megabyte> *consistent
<GunnarHj> Megabyte: Well, it's the way it's done currently. Once you get used to it it's not very complicated.
<Megabyte> GunnarHj, I understand it's the way Ubuntu does it, but I disagree with the process
<GunnarHj> Megabyte: It's ok to disagree. But this room isn't the right place to achieve any changes.
<GunnarHj> belkinsa: I will be there on the docs roundtable on Wednesday. But I can't log in to the summit site.
<belkinsa> That should go Mike Hall. at mhall119@ubuntu.com
<belkinsa> Because you can't log in and he might help you.
<knome> i guess ultimately this might be a good channel to discuss change, but the change won't happen overnight
<belkinsa> Oh, wait mhall119  is here in this channel
<GunnarHj> belkinsa: Thanks for the tip. Did you have that problem before?
<belkinsa> I never had it
<GunnarHj> This is what I get:
<GunnarHj> "The username (gunnarhj) with which you tried to log in is already in use for a different account."
<belkinsa> knome, I agree and maybe this item could be brought up at the roundtable?
<belkinsa> GunnarHj, I never seen that.
<belkinsa> Have you cleared the chace?
<GunnarHj> belkinsa: Only if people who know anything about the manual participate.
<knome> well i don't know if it's that much about the medium
<belkinsa> GunnarHj, oh, then never mind.
<knome> it's more about the suggest-making person first doing things, getting involved, getting to know people and only then even start discussing about a change
<belkinsa> Megabyte, I would suggest that you e-mail the Manual mailing-list for help, someone might reply.
<knome> changing the backend because a new contributor around thinks it's a good is too risky.
<knome> *a good idea
<knome> not to take anything off from the suggestion or say it's a bad idea.
<Megabyte> knome, the multilingual glossary is a zero-risk idea, though
<Megabyte> It's basically a table with original language, comments, target language, comments
<Megabyte> knome, sorry to bring up this example, but it's really one of the best when it comes to an online technical glossary:
<Megabyte> http://www.microsoft.com/Language/en-US/Default.aspx
<Megabyte> An example of it in action
<Megabyte> http://www.microsoft.com/Language/en-US/Search.aspx?sString=desktop&langID=pt-br
<knome> who's going to take the time and effort to build it?
<knome> who'll make sure the data is inserted?
<knome> who'll maintain it?
#ubuntu-doc 2014-06-10
<mhall119> GunnarHj: that a problem with merged accounts in Ubuntu SSO, what's your Launchpad ID?
<GunnarHj> Hi mhall119!
<GunnarHj> mhall119: It's gunnarhj
<mhall119> hi GunnarHj
<mhall119> hmmm, you LP info matches the summit info, so it's your SSO account that's off
<mhall119> GunnarHj: I'm going to need the email address you're logging in with so I can ask for the SSO association token and update summit
<GunnarHj> mhall119: Ok... I usually log in with gunnarhj@ubuntu.com, even if the preferred address is something else..
<GunnarHj> mhall119: Any progress?
<mhall119> GunnarHj: sorry, I have to ask someone with access to get me the info I need
<GunnarHj> mhall119: Ok. Please let me know when it's fixed, and thanks in advance! :)
<mhall119> GunnarHj: try logging in again, should work for you now
<mhall119> sorry that took so long, it's not a common problem and we havne't found a way to automate the fix yet
<GunnarHj> mhall119: Have logged in successfully. Thanks!
<ChibaPet> Hey all. I just made an account to edit help.ubuntu.com, but I'm logged in and seeing the page I want to fix as immutable. Do I need to request editing rights explicitly, now that I have an account?
<belkinsa> ChibaPet, you need to hard rereash the page
<belkinsa> refresh*
<ChibaPet> Still says "immutable" after a forced reload.
<ChibaPet> It shows me logged in, just not able to edit.
<ChibaPet> Or am I misunderstanding something?
<knome> ChibaPet, what account did you create?
<ChibaPet> mason@blisses.org
<knome> no, i mean which type account.. ubuntu one?
<ChibaPet> Oh, I think so, yeah. It said I had to log in, and that's where it dumped me.
<ChibaPet> And it's definitely aware that I'm logged in, as it has a "logout" button.
<knome> ok, when you are logging in, does ubuntu one tell you the site is requesting a username, and do you see one listed?
<ChibaPet> Hm, let me log out and see.
<ChibaPet> "Login to edit" leads me to login.ubuntu.com, and the logo notes "ubuntu one".
<knome> that's correct
<knome> what information it says it's sharing?
<ChibaPet> Um, name and email if I remember correctly.
<ChibaPet> logging out and back in to verify that
<ChibaPet> Yes, full name and email.
<knome> ok, then you need to link the ubuntu one account with a launchpad account
<ChibaPet> Alright, I'll have to make one then I guess. Thank you.
<knome> basically, just log in to launchpad with your ubuntu one account credentials
<ChibaPet> Oh, hm. Alright.
<ChibaPet> URL, please?
<knome> it will then create you a placeholder username, which you can change after the linking is done
<ChibaPet> It's evidently not launchpad.ubuntu.com :P
<knome> https://launchpad.net/+login
<ChibaPet> Mm, it's asking to share my username now. And I have an edit link. Thank you.
<knome> no problem, have fun editing
<ChibaPet> Now I just need to figure out how to do this install. Seems like the installer doesn't let me set up LVM, which is surprising.
<ChibaPet> But I'll nail some typos while I'm at it.
<knome> :)
<ChibaPet> Hm, is there policy for linking off-site? I just found something here, and I can either write similar docs in the wiki or link to it: http://www.computersnyou.com/3193/2014/04/install-ubuntu-14-04-desktop-encrypted-lvm/
<belkinsa> Good question, ChibaPet.
<belkinsa> knome, do you know?
<knome> ChibaPet, would be better if you could get it on the wiki
<ChibaPet> Ah, I'll try to find something different. That describes something close but not quite right, in that it's using the whole disk. Sigh.
<ChibaPet> Sounds reasonable.
<knome> external links are more prone to break and stuff.
<ChibaPet> I'll figure it out and writ something up.
<ChibaPet> Mm.
<phillw> pleia2: Are you about?
<phillw> belkinsa: I have an outstanding ping from you :)
<belkinsa> For what?
<phillw> belkinsa: the y-t for lubuntu starts at +15 mins.... Now asking on here how to fix it.
<belkinsa>  Ah, you just to use that link that I sent you.
<phillw> (22:38:28) phillw: belkinsa: that link is 13:27 in
<belkinsa> I think you can restart the video at 0 secs and link the share tab and use that link.
<phillw> belkinsa: please give the link and we will push them forward
#ubuntu-doc 2014-06-11
<phillw> belkinsa: I've tried, same link
<belkinsa> Huh?
<belkinsa> I checked.
<belkinsa> You can do it yourself, there is a check box by the link that share gives you wher eyou set the tine when it starts
<phillw> knome: could you just give a quick click on this link https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3jkAq1WJ7bs
<phillw> belkinsa: I may have cache issues, so need someone who has not been a part to say.
<belkinsa> I see
<phillw> belkinsa: knome should not have seen lubuntu presentation, so his browser should be clear. (We do actually chat, which is why I  asked a guy from a totally different team to test).
<belkinsa> Ah, I see.
<knome> what do i need to try?
<knome> oh, that does start at 0.
<knome> got to go to bed now, hf ->
<belkinsa> Slaapwel, knome.
<pleia2> phillw: wasn't then, am now
<pleia2> heh, RT ticket for fixing sign on for the wiki was moved to "doing" queue on Apr 21st
<belkinsa> All, how many member of the Doc Team will be joining the Hangout on Air at 18 UTC today?  I need to know because my computer can not take it after three people in a Hangout.  Thanks.
<belkinsa> Ubuntu Documentation Team Roundtable June 2014 in 27 minutes
<belkinsa> The roundtable will start in less than 30 minutes in #ubuntu-uds-community-1 and the Hangout link is (to join):  https://plus.google.com/hangouts/_/hoaevent/AP36tYfs-LezOGpwYbtjHH5WGSrWEWJlDz0_qvciVDrRmseAly4gtw?authuser=0&hl=en
<belkinsa> Track page: http://summit.ubuntu.com/uos-1406/meeting/22234/community-1406-ubuntu-documentation-team/
<belkinsa> The roundtable will start in less than 20 minutes in #ubuntu-uds-community-1 and the Hangout link is (to join):  https://plus.google.com/hangouts/_/hoaevent/AP36tYfs-LezOGpwYbtjHH5WGSrWEWJlDz0_qvciVDrRmseAly4gtw?authuser=0&hl=en
<belkinsa> Track page: http://summit.ubuntu.com/uos-1406/meeting/22234/community-1406-ubuntu-documentation-team/
<belkinsa> The roundtable will start in 10 minutes in #ubuntu-uds-community-1 and the Hangout link is (to join):  https://plus.google.com/hangouts/_/hoaevent/AP36tYfs-LezOGpwYbtjHH5WGSrWEWJlDz0_qvciVDrRmseAly4gtw?authuser=0&hl=en
<belkinsa> Track page: http://summit.ubuntu.com/uos-1406/meeting/22234/community-1406-ubuntu-documentation-team/
<belkinsa> Anyone?
<pleia2> I'm pretty snowed under with work today, sorry
<belkinsa> Alright
<belkinsa> The roundtable will start in less than 10 minutes in #ubuntu-uds-community-1 and the Hangout link is (to join):  https://plus.google.com/hangouts/_/hoaevent/AP36tYfs-LezOGpwYbtjHH5WGSrWEWJlDz0_qvciVDrRmseAly4gtw?authuser=0&hl=en
<belkinsa> The roundtable will start in less than 5 minutes in #ubuntu-uds-community-1 and the Hangout link is (to join):  https://plus.google.com/hangouts/_/hoaevent/AP36tYfs-LezOGpwYbtjHH5WGSrWEWJlDz0_qvciVDrRmseAly4gtw?authuser=0&hl=en
<Megabyte> Hello, everyone
<Megabyte> I need to show one of Ubuntu's install screen in Brazilian Portuguese to capture it, but I'm emulating it through a virtual machine.
<Megabyte> Specifically, it's the install a screen that asks for a wireless connection
<pmatulis> belkinsa: i updated the blueprint with the etherpad stuff
<belkinsa> pmatulis, thanks.
<pmatulis> belkinsa: do you have any idea of the number of contributors for the desktop?
<belkinsa> pmatulis, I don't know,  I might know of two but I think they don't from time to time.
<pmatulis> belkinsa: about 6 people
<pmatulis> http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-core-doc/ubuntu-docs/trusty/changes
<pmatulis> actually, those are the committers
<GunnarHj> pmatulis: still there?
<GunnarHj> belkinsa: ping?
<belkinsa> GunnarHj, pong.
<GunnarHj> belkinsa: Hi
<belkinsa> Hey, whats up?
<GunnarHj> belkinsa: Just watched the video from the roundtable session.
<GunnarHj> Should have been there. I would have had more to contribute there than in the other session.
<belkinsa> It's alright.
<GunnarHj> belkinsa: Thanks anyway. Noticed that a couple of good ideas came up.
<belkinsa> Not a problem.
<belkinsa> It was award starting it without anyone else.
<GunnarHj> belkinsa: I like the one about a link from help.ubuntu.com.
<GunnarHj> belkinsa: Award? ;)
<belkinsa> Awkward*
<GunnarHj> belkinsa: Aha, that I understand better. Sorry.
<belkinsa> I do too about the link.
<belkinsa> It's cool, my fault.
<GunnarHj> Nobody's fault, really. Just too few people involved. The usual problem...
<GunnarHj> belkinsa: Maybe we should have meeting soon? There are indeed a few things to talk about.
<belkinsa> No, what I said (award not awkward).  But I agree, you think it's the barrier to entry or a lack of some of type of Ubuntu recruiting (comms or promo) team not helping new folks to get in?
<belkinsa> pmatulis, thanks for the numbers.
<GunnarHj> belkinsa: Right now I was talking about the low number of people that are truly engaged in the docs team.
<belkinsa> Oh, I see.
<GunnarHj> belkinsa: Something we should try to improve, of course.
<belkinsa> Indeed and also getting new ones in.
<GunnarHj> Right.
<GunnarHj> belkinsa: A link to http://community.ubuntu.com/contribute/documentation/ might be what should be on top of help.ubuntu.com
<belkinsa> Right, I will make the ticket to IS
<belkinsa> pleia2, or someone else: do you have the link to Canonical I?S
<belkinsa> IS*
<pleia2> rt@ubuntu.com which lands on rt.ubuntu.com eventually (once it's reviewed it's made public I think)
<belkinsa> Thanks.
<belkinsa> pleia2, you can create a ticket there also.
<pleia2> yeah, but then I don't have it in my sent folder :)
<belkinsa> Good point.
<pleia2> I think it might have been harder to Cc: people too, I forget
<belkinsa> Mind if I draft it up and show it to you before sending it?
<pleia2> sure, I wasn't paying attention to what this is about :)
<pleia2> oh, I need to leave in 20 minutes
<belkinsa> Okay, we have time, it's not that of a big deal (yet).
<pleia2> doug manages help.ubuntu.com, he might be able to handle this
<pleia2> dsmythies
<belkinsa> Ah, perfect.
<belkinsa> Does he lurk around here?
<belkinsa> Or should I do this via Mailing-list?
<pleia2> often, but I haven't seen him much lately
<pleia2> mailing list is probably good (also gives other folks the opportunity to comment)
<belkinsa> Aright, mailing list first than RT
<belkinsa> GunnarHj, I noticed that that item is not my item (getting that link to the help.ubuntu.com), it's Mike Hall's.
<belkinsa> I told him about it.
<GunnarHj> belkinsa: Actually, that link can be added by any docs committer.
<belkinsa> Prefect.
<knome> GunnarHj, not help.ubuntu.com
<knome> at least not the frontpage
<GunnarHj> knome: Yep
<knome> under community, sure
<GunnarHj> knome: I already changed the page a few weeks ago. I can do it again. :)
<knome> :)
<belkinsa> GunnarHj, you have permission to add that link.
<GunnarHj> belkinsa: Yes. Give me a few minutes...
<belkinsa> And GunnarHj you have an item for this cycle too.  And thanks.
<GunnarHj> belkinsa: Wait until it's there before you thank me. ;)
<belkinsa> Good point
<pmatulis> belkinsa: why link to the community stuff from the non-community docs?  in the session we discussed what link should go there
<pmatulis> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/SystemDocumentation
<belkinsa> Oh, I got lost.  There is two items that relate.
<pmatulis> belkinsa: keep in mind that help.u.c covers both desktop and server, the above link covers both
<belkinsa> Ah, I see.  Maybe that's the one we need on top of the help.u.c page.
<belkinsa> And he is gone (GunnarHj)
<GunnarHj> belkinsa, knome: Committed.
<GunnarHj> http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-core-doc/ubuntu-docs/help.ubuntu.com/revision/130
<belkinsa> Great.
<belkinsa> But
<belkinsa> [18:44] <pmatulis> belkinsa: why link to the community stuff from the non-community docs?  in the session we discussed what link should go there
<belkinsa> [18:46] <pmatulis> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/SystemDocumentation
<belkinsa> [18:47] <belkinsa> Oh, I got lost.  There is two items that relate.
<belkinsa> [18:50] <pmatulis> belkinsa: keep in mind that help.u.c covers both desktop and server, the above link covers both
<belkinsa> [18:51] <belkinsa> Ah, I see.  Maybe that's the one we need on top of the help.u.c page.
<belkinsa> [18:51] <belkinsa> And he is gone (GunnarHj)
<GunnarHj> belkinsa, knome: It will probably show up tomorrow afternoon UTC.
<belkinsa> Okay
<GunnarHj> belkinsa: Let's see if it looks good, and if it does, we should do the same thing on all the official docs pages.
<belkinsa> Alright, that works.
<GunnarHj> belkinsa: Possibly also on the community pages, but I'm not sure about that...
<belkinsa> Might need to go mhall119 for that
<belkinsa> Oh, wait, nevermind
<knome> GunnarHj, cheers
<GunnarHj> belkinsa: Yeah, that's one thing. But also, the community help wiki is different. Contributions are made simpy by editing pages, not by joining the docs team.
<GunnarHj> knome: Hi
#ubuntu-doc 2014-06-13
<belkinsa> To make Peter happy: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu-community-website/+bug/1329572
<belkinsa> and shaunm, have fun at the OHC.
<shaunm> belkinsa: thanks
<shaunm> you're missing out on a great reception downtown tomorrow
#ubuntu-doc 2015-06-09
<Torian> Hi.  Just wanted to let you know of an slight issue in one of the scripts on the docs.
<Torian> The first script on this page https://help.ubuntu.com/lts/serverguide/backups-shellscripts-rotation.html has an issue at line 24 if the month is a single digit.
<Torian> Because of the padding it reads it as an octal number.
<Torian> To fix it just add the no padding option to the date command. Change day_num=$(date +%d) to day_num=$(date +%-d).
<pmatulis> open a bug
#ubuntu-doc 2015-06-10
<maritere> hola
<pmatulis> oh well
#ubuntu-doc 2018-06-12
<m4sk1n> hi, is anyone ever going to review my tutorials from gci? :D
<alan_g> m4sk1n, I asked a very similar question a week ago. Still waiting on an answer. :(
