#ubuntu-doc 2005-09-12
<jalrnc> question: will the quicktour have a .po file for translation? I couldn't find it in the svn repo
<Madpilot> jalrnc: eventually I guess it will, not sure if that'll make Breezy or not though
<jalrnc> so it may not be possible to include any translations at all with breezy?
<Madpilot> I really don't know
<Madpilot> I"m slightly involved in the Quick Guide - I did a lot of the current XHTML/CSS layout - but I don't know how the translation process works
<jalrnc> Madpilot: thanks
<Madpilot> no problem. if you are able to help with translation, i'm sure the doc-team will be glad to hear from you!
<mpt> "Of course, besides the network option, [Mozilla]  can also be used as a standalone HTML viewer."
<mpt> Who *writes* this stuff
<Madpilot> what's that from?
<mpt> The description of Mozilla in gnome-app-install
<jalrnc> Madpilot: I'm the PT LoCoTeam leader, we've been involved in the translations and would love to help further :) I'll send an email to the doc list asking about the quicktour doc
<Madpilot> mpt: is it too late to just get rid of that entire line?
<Madpilot> jalrnc: PT = Portugal, right?
<mpt> Madpilot: Oh, probably
<Madpilot> mpt: too bad. I don't think it would be missed... bugreport it for breezy+1?
<mpt> Madpilot: Yeah, I guess ... But it's nothing special
<mpt> There's text all over the place like that
<Madpilot> the joys of Linux documentation... ;)
<mpt> yeah, but not just the documentation
<mpt> e.g. the main window of g-a-i itself: "This program allows you to add or remove programs with a click of a button." <-- that's not telling me anything, amigo
<Madpilot> my favourite is gFTP, which appears to be *entirely* undocumented beyond a fairly short man page, even on the gFTP website...
<mpt> Another example: the Boot Manager Settings window has a spinbox: "Seconds to wait before loading default kernel or OS". It doesn't mention what is the point of waiting at all.
<jalrnc> Madpilot: yep
<mpt> ooh, ooh, here's a good one: "You seem to be running gnome-pilot for the first time."
* mpt hasn't had enough sleep in the past couple of days
* Madpilot has an MS Clippie flashback on seeing the words "You seem to be...".... ahhh!
<mpt> There needs to be ... I dunno, some sort of culture of brevity established
<Madpilot> .whois mpt
<mpt> Does this sentence help Aunt Tillie? Does it help cousin Arlo? If not, cut it out.
<Madpilot> ... sorry...
<Madpilot> "culture of brevity" - I like that phrase
<mpt> Same for words, and for syllables.
<Madpilot> but... but extraneous polysyllables are *cool*! :)
<Madpilot> extraneous polysyllabilac verbiage - even cooler
<mpt> yeah
<Madpilot> ... except that I can't spell today...
<mpt> Symptoms of extraneous polysyllabic verbiage: "enable", "allow", "In this window you can", "the user"
<Madpilot> yup
<mpt> jdub: awake?
<jdub> yo
<jdub> can't stay long
<mpt> jdub: Ok, well, in three sentences or fewer: how did gnome start caring about usability?
<mpt> What happened?
<jdub> holy crap dude
<mpt> I remember there was a lot of use of the word "crack"
<mpt> which seemed to be a kind of bludgeon
<mpt> but there must have been more to it than that
<jdub> a lot of deep introspective thought, a lot of agitating on behalf of particular people, a lot of consideration of our target market, a lot of consideration about the receipe we needed for success, etc.
<jdub> understanding that freedom is not just for geeks
<mpt> lots of hard work, then
<jdub> yes, once the ideas were there, a fuckload of hard work to prove it
<jdub> anyway, have to run
<mpt> ok, thanks
<jdub> i'm sure there's a longer discussion in this :)
<mpt> yeah
<mpt> about going to the next level
<mpt> (at the risk of clicheing myself)
<jdub> did you watch my guadec talk video?
<mpt> no, I've been meaning to watch the guadec videos for ... some time now
<mpt> I only got halfway through the selinux one
* mpt remembers they had "6uadec" in the url, and finds them again
<mpt> oh, these are files I can't watch on my Mac
<mpt> because Ogg for Mac has been broken for the past ~6 months
<jdub> bonus
<jdub> mine has some of this stuff in it
<mpt> Apple makes QuickTime for Windows, because it's in their interests to make sure people can watch QuickTime formats
<mpt> Microsoft makes Windows Media Player for Mac OS, because it's in their interests to make sure people can watch Windows Media formats
<mpt> Linux distributors should club together to hire someone to maintain Ogg plugins for Windows and OS X, for the same reason
<jsgotangco> hey all
<Madpilot> hi
<mpt> hi jsgotangco
<jsgotangco> hey
<jsgotangco> Burgundavia, ping?
<jsgotangco> hey jeffsch 
<jeffsch> jsgotangco: hey
<jsgotangco> jeffsch, i was studying our svn folder structre last night, its so unfriendly for packaging
<jeffsch> well, then, i guess i'm glad i don't know how to do packaging :)
<jeffsch> we got lots of work to do after breezy
<jsgotangco> what the package did back then was re-edit the doc just to fit in
<jsgotangco> and copy a lot of the common/libs stuff for every doc
<jeffsch> hmmm... i didn't know that
<jsgotangco> if you look at /usr/share/gnome/help/ you'll see every ubuntu doc has its own copy of common and libs
<jsgotangco> so from our working copy we refer to ./../../foo
<jsgotangco> but in the package it is changed to just ./
<jsgotangco> it took me an hour to figure out what was the problem till i took a peek into the old docs that were installed
<jeffsch> i think part of the problem back then was that the xslt was not dealing with the paths properly
<jsgotangco> ideally, the working copy should mimic the packaging
<jsgotangco> but that means every entry has its own common and libs which isnt really a good idea
<jeffsch> the "strip path" template in the nwalsh xslt is broken in version 1.66
<jsgotangco> for someone who is good at packaging it might be trivial, but it took me a while to figure it out
<jsgotangco> (the scrollkeeper part was easy btw)
<jeffsch> will you have to do the same thing again, that is, give each doc its own common and libs?
<jsgotangco> if i was only doing one doc, yes
<jsgotangco> but it would be impractical with our workflow
<jsgotangco> we'll have a lot of global.ents
<jsgotangco> for starters
<jeffsch> we only have two for breezy anyway, right?
<jsgotangco> right
<jsgotangco> its also possible if we put our entities in a separate path
<jsgotangco> so that all ubuntu-docs will point there instead of having their own
<jsgotangco> it would mimic our working copy
<jeffsch> wait a minute... we are shipping html, right? If so, what do we need global.ent for?
<jeffsch> we only need to mimic the build directory
<jsgotangco> right we actually have no need for it for breezy
<jsgotangco> considering yelp is slower than ever, html was a good choice
<jeffsch> hey rob^
<jeffsch> rob^: did you ever use esvn?
<jeffsch> if you did, and if you have any backups of your old machine, you can recover you svn password from it
<jeffsch> esvn stores the svn password in the clear, in the file esvnrc
<jsgotangco> hmm i didnt know that
<jsgotangco> heh
<jsgotangco> hmmm this bug filed is upstream
<Madpilot> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/HardwareSupportComponentsPrinters <-- added a plea for more data from users, and a link to linuxprinting.org
<robitaille> I wonder if it is worth sending an email to the mailing list.   
<Madpilot> about?
<robitaille> the printers and asking for data points from users
* robitaille should probably add his own printer in there.
<Madpilot> might be worth it - look how many community laptops are in the laptop project now
<robitaille> exactly.   People are always eager to help.
<robitaille> but often they don't know where to start.
<Madpilot> I think I'll bother Burgundavia to blog it; lots of people seem to follow planet.ubuntu
<robitaille> I can do it.  I haven't blogged in a while on planet.
<Madpilot> cool
<Madpilot> if we start getting lots of printers, a bit more organization might be in order
<Madpilot> seperate tables by manufacturer, I think
<Madpilot> otherwise it gets to be this huge unreadable monster table...
<robitaille> hummm... is the rendering that worse with large big table vs a bunch of smaller ones?
<Madpilot> I find that it just gets harder to pick info out of a longer table, even one as well-designed as the Printer table already is
<Madpilot> you keep scrolling down... and scrolling down... and scrolling down...
<robitaille> but I'm afraid users who come there with a printer from a strange manufacturer will not know where to put it if the table doesn't exist
<Madpilot> good point
<HrdwrBoB> there's a LOT of printerst though
<HrdwrBoB> hundreds and hundreds
<HrdwrBoB> different model numbers for the same thing in different countries
<HrdwrBoB> etc etc
<robitaille> and we have no idea when these things were tested.  For what we know, most of them may have been done with Warty.  Maybe we need a column with the Ubuntu version in there
<Madpilot> looking thru linuxprinting.org's database proves that
<Madpilot> robitaille: there is a column for "last updated"
<robitaille> darn small screen.  I didn't even see it on the right of my screen :)
<robitaille> still, it shouldn't be a date, but an Ubuntu version.  A date is somewhat useless
<Madpilot> heh. couldn't live without my 19"...
<Madpilot> perhaps an extra column for "Ubuntu Version" outside the "Last Updated" one?
<robitaille> I'm on the 14in laptop right now....
<robitaille> yes; that sounds good
<Madpilot> OK, I'll add it now.
<robitaille> I would put them on the left of the comment column...but that's a lot more work to move stuff around
<Madpilot> easier to add it to the outside of the table than somewhere in the middle of the thing...
<robitaille> exactly.  it's a bit too late know.
<robitaille> s/know/now
<Madpilot> yeah
<Madpilot> tables are messy at the best of times. tables in Moin markup... well...
<Madpilot> hmmm... actually, I'll add it to the left of Comments, it's all a matter of pasting anyway
<robitaille> cupsys-driver-gimpprint is now in main, not in universe.  so quite a few of these report haven't been touched since Warty
<robitaille> and it seems cupsys-driver-gimpprint is now installed by default in Breezy.  interesting
<Madpilot> I should have taken some notes when I was isntalling this printer in Hoary last month. I can't remember what I had to install and what was already loaded...
<Madpilot> OK, "Ubuntu Version" column added
<jsgotangco> printers?
<jsgotangco> Printer manufacturers are dumb in their model naming conventions as well
<Madpilot> not much dumber than the rest of the computer industry...
<jsgotangco> a few weeks ago, i actually received a telegraph message
<jsgotangco> heh
<Madpilot> a what? cool!
<jsgotangco> some parts of the my country still rely on it
<Madpilot> did you get to decipher the Morse Code yourself, too? ;)
<jsgotangco> no
<jsgotangco> i just received the paper
<jsgotangco> heh
<jsgotangco> but there is already a plan by the government to shut down the telegraph bureau
<Madpilot> ... _ _ _ ...  _ _ _ ... _ _ _  ... _ _ _ ...
<jsgotangco> haha
<Madpilot> if I remember my Morse, that should have been "SOS" in Morse...
<jsgotangco> wonder if ships still has this thing
<jsgotangco> what do submarines use?
<jsgotangco> ah sonar righ
<jsgotangco> t
<Madpilot> subs use ULF - Ultra Long Wave - really, really slow, but it can penetrate water better than normal radio
<jsgotangco> similar to what dolphins and whales use i guess?
<Madpilot> they really do use sonar/sound to talk - so do subs, but when subs need to use radio they can do ULF without surfacing
<jsgotangco> what do planes use anyway
<Madpilot> VHF mostly
<Madpilot> it's line of sight only
<jsgotangco> ahhh
<Madpilot> HF for non-LOS stuff, like in isolated regions
<Madpilot> getting my pilot's license has filled me with communications trivia... ;)
<jsgotangco> i thought planes have this frequency hiway to avoid colliding with each other
<Madpilot> planes mostly don't collide with each other because it's a big sky, and because pilots don't like hitting things
<jsgotangco> ok so the air traffic controller is only useful for landing and take off?
<jsgotangco> while on the air, you're mostly on your own?
<Madpilot> it depends where the air is, really.
<Madpilot> even a lot of airports have no air traffic control
<jsgotangco> scary
<HrdwrBoB> not really
<Madpilot> and there's lots of airspace (at least in Canada) where you don't even need a radio to fly
<HrdwrBoB> most highways dont' have .. highway control
<HrdwrBoB> there's more air than there is road
<Madpilot> lots more air. plus pilots are smarter than drivers - or at least better trained!
<jsgotangco> true i was just wondering how commercial airlines do it though if that's the case
<Madpilot> the big jets are talking to somebody all the time, more or less
<HrdwrBoB> big airports are strictly timed
<HrdwrBoB> and managed
<Madpilot> at any big airport, you're going to be on radar & radio from a long way out, especially if you're an airliner
<jsgotangco> how about those small planes (cessna, whatever)
<Madpilot> that's what I fly
<Madpilot> they're fun
<jsgotangco> you bought one?
<Madpilot> and depending on the airspace, you don't have to talk to anyone. 
<Madpilot> hah. no, I rent. even a used plane is expensive
<jsgotangco> i would imagine, it probably uses jet fuel too
<Madpilot> no, just high-octane gas. 100 octane (where most car gas is ~80-90 octane)
<jsgotangco> that sounds fun
<Madpilot> flying small planes is great.
<Madpilot> I took an 11 year old boy up last Sunday - the son of a co-worker - it was his first time in a small plane. I think he's hooked
<jsgotangco> can you actually learn from a sim?
<Madpilot> not really.
<Madpilot> the flight sims just aren't the same
<jsgotangco> ive seen some sims and they look complicated
<jsgotangco> well yeah even with force feedback technology
<Madpilot> Oh, they're complex, but they're still not much like the real thing
<Madpilot> even with force feedback - which is pretty crap - there's far more input in the real thing for a sim to really compare
<Madpilot> plus sims encourage too much looking at the instrument panel, while in regular real flying, you need to have your eyes outside the cockpit more than in...
* ajmitch wonders when the ubuntu docs are going to be translated into morse by Madpilot :)
<Madpilot> ajmitch: I'm not quite that mad a pilot... ;)
<ajmitch> you could run them through a script anyway :)
<Madpilot> I'm sure somewhere on the net there's an English-Morse translator already set up
<Burgundavia> ajmitch, jsgotangco you have any experience with pulling PO's out of html?
<ajmitch> no, I don't
<jsgotangco> Madpilot, but in big planes like a jumbo jet, you always refer to the instrument panel
<Madpilot> actually, I think I've got a Morse TTF font somewhere around...
<jsgotangco> Burgundavia, nope sorry
<jsgotangco> i couldn't answer the email
<Burgundavia> I just responded
<Madpilot> jsgotangco: mostly, but even there, the traffic (other planes) are outside the cockpit...
<jsgotangco> i guess autopilot is overrated =)
<Madpilot> jsgotangco: haven't flown a plane with one yet, myself (but the biggest thing I've ever flown only has four seats, so...)
<Madpilot> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IssuesAsNoviceUbuntuUser  <-- noticed this in RecentChanges - seems more like a forum post than wiki material?
<robitaille> finally added my printer (z53) to the wiki printer page.   Time to blog about it to try to get people to fill up the blanks
<Madpilot> excellent
<Madpilot> robitaille: not comment? other ppl seem to have trouble with their Lexmark's
<Madpilot> my lexmark was dying before I switched to Linux, so it never did work right, but I didn't try very hard with it...
<jsgotangco> Lexmark is the dumbest of them all
<Madpilot> expensive ink, too
<jsgotangco> we actually have a huge cottage industry of ink refills targetted to lexmark
<Madpilot> I believe it...
<jsgotangco> its actually dumb because one of the biggest lexmark factories are located down south here
<Madpilot> no Linux support from Lexmark, either...
<jsgotangco> its a pain, they may be the cheapest one here but they're the hardest to use 
<jsgotangco> very few people buy lexmark here really, but the computer resellers give them away so...
<robitaille> Madpilot,  that's not true, my z53 came with Mandrake drivers.
<Madpilot> here, buying new ink for a Lexmark costs nearly as much as buying the printer in the first place! (cheap printer, expensive ink...)
<Madpilot> robitaille: really? that's cool.
<robitaille> but ink is expensive; but I got the printer for free, and I very rarely print anyway
<Madpilot> I should scrounge up my old Z32 CD, and see what's actually on it now
<robitaille> I remember that they even had the little penguin logo on the box beside the Windows and Mac logos
<Madpilot> nothing like that on mine :(
<robitaille> http://www.lexmark.com/US/products/tech_specs/0,1231,MTg0NHwx,00.html for the complete list of linux supported
<robitaille> but I stil end up using gimp-print under Ubuntu since it is setup by default that way
<Madpilot> Mandrake, SuSE & Redhat - OK, better than I'd thought
<robitaille> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Kurdish   it's a recent page.  I'm a big confused why someone would cut and paste from the web; and it doesn't seem to be linked from anywhere else.
<Madpilot> robitaille: I noticed that myself a day or two ago, not sure what the point of it was, either
<Madpilot> have you confirmed that it's pure cut'n'paste?
<robitaille> http://www.cogsci.ed.ac.uk/~siamakr/Kurdish/iran-lang.html
<Madpilot> bingo
<Madpilot> I was just checking Wikipedia, actually
<robitaille> the power of a google search :)
<Madpilot> I'll vote for deletion, it's both copyright violation & doesn't seem relevant to Ubuntu
<Madpilot> a Kurdish-lang. Ubuntu would be cool, but we don't need a massive page on the language...
<rob^> Burgundavia, hmm
<rob^> oops
<Madpilot> ?
<jsgotangco> wait let me sse it heh
<rob^> stupid tab key
<jsgotangco> oh my it looks like a wikipedia entry heh
<Madpilot> it's cut'n'paste from that 2nd URL robitaille's posted...
<rob^> would we say: "Synaptics" or "Synaptic's" in: "..Synaptics/'s full usage is explained below".
<jsgotangco> err
<jsgotangco> Synaptics'
<jsgotangco> you don't use 's on a word that has s at the end
<rob^> hmm, I was also thinking that could have been it
<jsgotangco> unless english AU allows it =)
<rob^> man I hate english!
<Madpilot> it's an awful language
<robitaille> try to learn it when it's not your native tongue :)
<jsgotangco> unforutnately everyone uses it
<rob^> yeah, I have heard that its hard
<Madpilot> robitaille: you grew up speaking French?
<robitaille> yeah, life is not fair, why doesn't everyone uses french?
<jsgotangco> english isn't my native language
<Madpilot> it's my only language, really, but it's still awful!
<robitaille> Madpilot,  yes, french is my first language.  Mostly learned english after I turned 16
<jsgotangco> i grew up learning 2 languages and 3 dialects
<robitaille> humm... still a bit bare :)  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BreezyReleaseNotes
<Madpilot> I can order beer politely in half a dozen European languages... ;)
<jsgotangco> robitaille, leave it as is, jbailey will be filling it up soon as well as me
<robitaille> jsgotangco,  I know.  I just saw it while cleaning up my mailbox
<Madpilot> robitaille: just saw your printer blog post - good
<Madpilot> for the printers, what exactly counts as "Supported" as a seperate thing for "Working"?
<rob^> hmm why is spell check not working in evolution?
<jsgotangco> robitaille, did you get your ubuntu.com email?
<robitaille> yes...and you should have it as well.
<robitaille> it was turned on earlier, based on your LP address
<jsgotangco> elmo emailed me earlier that i haven't signed the CoC heh
<robitaille> Madpilot,  supported:  Ubuntu knows about your printer;  work: you can get it to work, but the correct driver, or a workaround
<robitaille> jsgotangco,  :)
* jsgotangco signed that CoC ages ago before LP was even usable
<Madpilot> robitaille: OK. just thinking of adding some actual detail to the intro blurb on that page
<robitaille> signed my CoC long before I became a member;  I was one of the early Ubuntites
<robitaille> Madpilot,  sounds good.  
<jsgotangco> robitaille, what is your email then?
<robitaille> robitaille@ubuntu.com
<jsgotangco> l337
<robitaille> simple, easy to remember :)
<jsgotangco> its a forwarder?
<robitaille> yes
<robitaille> it forward to your launchpad prefered email address
<jsgotangco> ahhh
<robitaille> which means you can't use your @ubuntu address to log in LP
* jsgotangco updates his LP details
<jsgotangco> did anyone patch rob^ diff already
<Madpilot> anyone know what "PPD" actually stands for? (linuxprinting.org does even seem to have a def'n...)
<jsgotangco> err PPD?
<jsgotangco> shouldnt it be LPD
<robitaille> PostScript Printer Description
<Madpilot> robitaille: thanks
<robitaille> the printer files often are whatever.ppd
<robitaille> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PostScript_Printer_Description
<robitaille> wikipedia never fails to amaze me nowadays
<Madpilot> "the file used to tell Ubuntu your printer's settings" <-- decent one-line newbie-friendly summary of a PPD?
<Madpilot> "...settings & abilities." is probably better...
<rob^> hey, has anyone seen the unofficial lite ubuntu project?
<Madpilot> yeah
<Madpilot> is their webpage layout still broken?
<rob^> yeah, there is a wiki which is much better though
<mdke> hi all
<rob^> hi mdke 
<mdke> hi
<mdke> nice work on faq guide
<rob^> yeah thanks
<mdke> how is it going?
<rob^> corey and jeffsch are doing a good job on reviewing it
<rob^> I've sought of stepped back for the last week or so and let them go
<mdke> cool
<jsgotangco> hey mdke 
<mdke> hi jsgotangco 
<jsgotangco> long time no chat
<rob^> doesn't help that I don't have my svn password..
<mdke> rob^: yeah i read that, elmo should be getting up soon so try him from now onwards
<rob^> gtg to work in 5 minutes :(
<mdke> jsgotangco: :( I've been a bit out of touch lately with only dial-up and windows
<jsgotangco> broandband still hasn't moved?
<mdke> no it is taking ages
<mdke> i'm drowning in a sea of webmail
<mdke> how are things going?
<jsgotangco> hmmm going good
<jsgotangco> wonder if jbailey got mdz to nod on removing the freeze
<mdke> removing the freeze?
<jsgotangco> yeah
<mdke> in what way?
<jsgotangco> we can still write docs after preview
<jsgotangco> and finish up just in time
<mdke> oh
<mdke> so will translation be done after release then?
<mdke> the freeze is there to enable translation to get started before release
<jsgotangco> well translators will be definitely unhappy if we extend further after the freeze
<jsgotangco> but since we only have 2 main docs, i think we're safe =)
<mdke> so when will translation start?
* jsgotangco shrugs
<mdke> is extending the doc freeze absolutely necessary?
<Madpilot> OK, got the intro info done (I think) on the Printer page. thoughts, anyone? https://wiki.ubuntu.com/HardwareSupportComponentsPrinters
<mdke> it would be a shame not to have translation done
<jsgotangco> if anyone can review About Ubuntu now i can make this final and have it open for translation i guess
<mdke> ok
<mdke> what about the other docs?
<mdke> are they not going to be ready for the freeze?
<Burgundavia> mdke, QuickTour is coming along
<mdke> :)
<mdke> hi corey
<Burgundavia> mdke, yes, html to po is not fun, but hey
<mdke> i looked into it with the ubuntuguide some months back
<mdke> it was hell
<mdke> it works only with strict html
<mdke> (x)
<mdke> we'll work something out though I'm sure
<Burgundavia> Madpilot, is the QuickTour strict html?
<Madpilot> ouch. the QuickTour is not strict...
<Burgundavia> Madpilot, can we make it so?
<Madpilot> I'm not sure
* Burgundavia professes to be completely ignorant of html
<mdke> i think strict xhtml is simply an implementation of xml
<Madpilot> It does validate, but it's not using a Strict HTML doctype
<mdke> like docbook is
<Madpilot> it's currently XHTML 1.0 Transitional
<Madpilot> we can't make it Strict XHTML without getting rid of the tables, I think
<Madpilot> but let me look into the Strict XHTML def'n for a minute
<mdke> jsgotangco?
<jsgotangco> hey
<jsgotangco> i was fixing my touchpad
<Madpilot> ... for the folks in charge of markup, the W3C have some crappy, crappy webpages... 
<mdke> jsgotangco: so you were talking about postponing the doc freeze
<jsgotangco> mdke, i wasn't it was jbailey's idea
<jsgotangco> and we're not optimistic of mdz approving such
<mdke> ok, but i was curious as to the reason
<jsgotangco> in case you didn't know, our docs broke the pre-colony 4 build
<mdke> ok so the problem is with the package?
<jsgotangco> yes but it got fixed already
<jsgotangco> we don't have ubuntu-quickguide anymore but  ubuntu-desktop depends on it
<mdke> ok so what is the precise issue?
<jsgotangco> so stage 2 wouldn't continue
<mdke> yeah i understand that
<mdke> but that is not a problem with the docs themselves, just with the package
<mdke> what is the reason for extending the doc freeze?
<jsgotangco> but its already finished
<mdke> there must be one...
<jsgotangco> mdke, to clean it up further
<jsgotangco> even have a release notes
<mdke> ok... now you're answering my question!
<jsgotangco> edubuntu doesn't have a doc freeze
<mdke> which docs aren't going to be ready for doc freeze?
<Burgundavia> but edubuntu 5.10 is mostly a large beta release
<jsgotangco> i did a quick edit of About Ubuntu
<mdke> Burgundavia: just to change the subject quickly, is the last bit of the quicktour (the opencd project thing) still true for breezy?
<mdke> i heard they were combining the live and install cds and getting rid of the opencd stuff
<mdke> jsgotangco: is faqguide going to be ready?
<jsgotangco> mdke, there are still some entries that are not consistent with jeffsch's editing
<mdke> ok
<mdke> well if you think there are good reasons for extending the freeze, and they outweigh the interests of translators, then maybe it is a good idea to ask for an extension
<Burgundavia> mdke, yes. UbuntuExpress didn't make breezy
<mdke> k
<Burgundavia> mdke, and thus we are stuck with the d-i for one more relesae
<mdke> fine by me
<jsgotangco> that's not so bad, you already had your request on removing the root terminal =)
<mdke> i like it
<Burgundavia> the quicktour is basically done except for screenshots, and those don't need to be done for string freeze anyway
<mdke> jsgotangco: ?
<mdke> Burgundavia: cool
<jsgotangco> mdke, there's no reason at the moment considering the status of the 2 docs, we will only extend just to add a relase notes as jbailey indicated
<Burgundavia> mdke, what do you think of the quicktour generally?
<mdke> Burgundavia: looks great
<jsgotangco> mdke, but considering the state of our shippable docs, it can be opened up for translation
<mdke> ok sounds good
<jsgotangco> mdke, the question now is do we do the PO files or through rosetta
<mdke> rosetta uses po files
<mdke> so i would go with both
<jsgotangco> can we feed xml to rosetta?
<mdke> no
<mdke> we can make the po files and then upload them via carlos/daf/jordi or whoever
<jsgotangco> OK
<Burgundavia> jsgotangco, I have one large edit in installing-applications left
<jsgotangco> i would request anyone then to review About Ubuntu, Quick Guide and FAQ Guide 
<Burgundavia> then we need to polish what is there
<jsgotangco> and make the necessary edits if needed
<mdke> i will TRY and have a look at About ubuntu today, but I can't promise anything sadly
<jsgotangco> mdke, email would do
<Burgundavia> mdke, how is the rest of your life going?
<mdke> i'm pretty bummed I haven't been able to help lately
<jsgotangco> how is your laptop going
<Madpilot> for the XHTML Strict & po translations - does the damn thing actually have to validate as XHTML Strict?
<mdke> fine, but windows only
<mdke> Burgundavia: actually quite well
<mdke> apart form not having broadband
<Burgundavia> mdke, ouch
<mdke> Madpilot: yeah, but if you can't do it, don't worry, we'll think of something else
<mdke> Burgundavia: yeah and my modem is not supported by Ubuntu
<Burgundavia> Madpilot, what is the stumbling block?
<mdke> i think strict xhtml is rather different to transitional
<Burgundavia> mdke, my wired nic and my modem are not detected, but my wireless is atheros, so I am good to go
<Madpilot> mdke: I know too little about XHTML, there's one non-validating bit that I flat-out don't understand...
<mdke> ah
<mdke> maybe we can find someone who does?
<Madpilot> I'll generate a diff on the stuff I've done, and post that to the list in a bit.
<Burgundavia> Madpilot, ok
<jsgotangco> err guys in case im not online and jbailey is around can anyone follow him up on the scrollkeeper - yelp integration of our docs for preview
<jsgotangco> i have an idea what needs to be done but will still need jbailey's packaging
<mdke> our docs are html right?
<jsgotangco> yes
<jsgotangco> you still need to register it
<mdke> ok
<mdke> i won't be around either
<jsgotangco> an omf file would do =)
<mdke> the dial-up bill is growing
<jsgotangco> ok im positive this is workable within the day
<Madpilot> anyone know what the heck XHTML Strict uses instead of <ul> for an unordered list? All my books are HTML-based...
<jsgotangco> oopps we have a preview issue
<Burgundavia> mdke, the quicktour is in pure html, the faqguide and aboutubuntu in docbook
<mdke> yes
<mdke> jsgotangco: ok i will check about-ubuntu today and email the list when I have.
<jsgotangco> thanks
<mdke> gtg now
<Burgundavia> mdke, thanks for dropping by
<jsgotangco> see you
<mdke> sorry I haven't helped much lately
<Burgundavia> rob^, ping
<Madpilot> OK, quicktour.html.diff is made, off to the list in a minute
<Burgundavia> Madpilot, how far are we away from strict?
<jsgotangco> ok anyone here can patch? i will be offline in a while
<jsgotangco> need to test in a different partition
<Burgundavia> jsgotangco, I can patch
<jsgotangco> ok
<jsgotangco> i thought you were in a different machine
<jsgotangco> see you guys later
<Madpilot> Burgundavia: we're ONE validation error away from Strict
<Madpilot> but it's to do with <ul> (unordered lists) and I haven't a clue why it's not valid
<Burgundavia> hmm
<Madpilot> and neither does google, at least with what I've had a quick look for.
<Burgundavia> I can just drop the ul
<Burgundavia> what about ol?
<Madpilot> not sure if OL works either
<Madpilot> just a minute, I'll check
<Burgundavia> UL should work
<Madpilot> I know UL should work, I don't know why it doesn't...
<Madpilot> crap... I just screwed up my local copy of quickguide.html - how do I force svn to pull down a repo copy for me?
<Burgundavia> just delete it and then svn up
<Madpilot> thanks
<Madpilot> OK, diff sent to the list
<Burgundavia> Madpilot, committed
<Madpilot> thanks
<Madpilot> got some ppl from #html looking at the damn thing now, to see why it's not validating Strict...
<Burgundavia> cool
<Burgundavia> I am headed to bed, if you can figure out why, send another patch to the list
<Madpilot> Got it sorted, new diff on it's way in a few minutes. good night
<Burgundavia> night
<Burgundavia> I will commit it in the morning
<Madpilot> quicktour diff sent to the list.
<Madpilot> good night, all
<mdke> anyone around?
<jsgotangco> hey
<mdke> hiya
<mdke> corey seemed to say there was an error with my about-ubuntu file?
<jsgotangco> whats up im just updating X
<jsgotangco> hmm i haven't checked im not in my hoary partition
<mdke> ah cool, can you have a look later and commit it if it's ok?
<jsgotangco> (2 huge X updates grrrr)
<mdke> http://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-doc/2005-September/003421.html
<mdke> hmm
<mdke> new emails from my webmail don't thread properly
<mdke> at least with mailman
<mdke> jsgotangco: ok i'm off again, good luck with X and i'd like it if you can check out my about-ubuntu.xml later if you have time
<jsgotangco> sure
<mdke> thanks :)
<jsgotangco> i just couldn't get out of this X mess right now
<mdke> heh
<mdke> see ya later
* jbailey crawls into awakeness.
<jsgotangco> aha
<ajmitch> morning jeff
<jbailey> g'devening Andrew.
<jbailey> Or is it properly morning there now, too? =)
<ajmitch> morning here now :)
<jsgotangco> its already night here
<ajmitch> well, after midnight anyway
<jsgotangco> jbailey, completely awake?
<jbailey> jsgotangco: As awake as I'm going to get in the next hour, anyway. =)
<jsgotangco> ok i only have one question
<jsgotangco> make that 2
<jsgotangco> are you going to do the scrollkeeper bit?
<jsgotangco> are we still doing release notes?
<jsgotangco> ah! another one
<jsgotangco> did you ask mdz to drop the freeze?
<jbailey> 1) Yes, after the preview freeze I think.
<jbailey> Although I'll look for it today.
<jbailey> 2) YEs.  wiki.ubuntu.com/BreezyReleaseNotes
<jbailey> 3) Not yet, thanks for the reminder.
<jsgotangco> i tried it last night, it was a pain (you're right the svn isn't package friendly)
<jsgotangco> i had to move everyone one bit entitiy that was pointed if i do it in xml
<jbailey> I resent the request for getting write permissions yesterday morning, so hopefully I'll get access soon.
<jbailey> Well, I wonder if I could get permission to do the scrollkeeper bit for preview.  It's tight, but it would be really nice.
<ajmitch> isn't preview in a day or two?
<jsgotangco> yeah
<jsgotangco> probably less than 24 hours from now
<ajmitch> does the scrollkeeper bit affect only 1 package?
<jsgotangco> well it updates the whole sk db
<ajmitch> I'm just wondering if it has even a slim chance of breaking something :)
<jsgotangco> barely
<ajmitch> hopefully mdz will consider then
<jbailey> jsgotangco: Do you know what needs to be done?
<jsgotangco> sure i sat for an hour last night thinking about it and dug through hoary...its a pain with xml but it might be easier with html i will try later
<jsgotangco> the omf file should be easy
<jbailey> Cool.
<jbailey> Docbook and scrollkeeper are new beasts to me.
<jsgotangco> scrollkeeper is terribly old but its what we have since we use yelp
<jsgotangco> gahhh i gotta rest first
<jsgotangco> br
<jsgotangco> b
<mdke> ahh broadband is back
<jbailey> Is the docteam meeting today?
<mdke> not that I know of
<mdke> i didn't see anything on the mailing list
<mdke> although in the topic for #-meeting there is something posted for the 9th
<jbailey> Ah the 9th, okay.
<jbailey> I remember that it was an odd number. =)
<mdke> hey Burgundavia 
<Burgundavia> salut mdke 
<mdke> :)
<mdke> my broadband arrived a few days early
<mdke> so i'll sort out that about-ubuntu patch asap
<Burgundavia> mdke, ok, cheers
<Burgundavia> I suspect that it got infected with windows line ends
<mdke> argh
<mdke> in that case I'll just do it again
<Burgundavia> that is the only thing I can think of that would replace the entire document
<mdke> ok i'll check it out
<Madpilot> nice to see 6 or 8 new printers in the HardwarePrinter page since Daniel's blog post last night...
<mdke> evening froud 
<froud> evening
<froud> anyone feeling board?
* Burgundavia is feeling plank
<mdke> hmm
<mdke> that was appalling
<mdke> froud, we need to think about how to generate po files soon
<mdke> maybe in the meeting on friday?
<froud> http://icdl.tsf.org.za/cgi-bin/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=43 is up for grabs if anyone wants some fun
<Madpilot> for po files, the QuickTour is now XHTML Strict - yes, I figured it out, it's now valid Strict...
<mdke> nice one Madpilot 
<froud> yep yep if you put XHTML in SVN only do XHTML strict
<Madpilot> thanks - turns out it was one stupid nesting-tags error on my part - an error that's only an error using Strict
* froud remembers porting unofficialubuntuguide.org
<Madpilot> froud: messy job?
<froud> Madpilot: better 2 wrk in xml and trnsfrm 2 xhtml
<froud> then CSS
<froud> but no time for me now
<froud> must go
<froud> later
<Madpilot> froud: yeah, but I know XHTML fairly well, haven't worked with XML yet.
<mdke> be at the meeting?
<froud> when
<mdke> 9th 14 UTC
<froud> 2 days
<froud> bugga
<froud> shal try 
<mdke> cool
<froud> got to much a cooking
<mdke> otherwise I'll mail you about it
<froud> scared to commit on ubuntu-docs
<froud> will help if I can
<mdke> ?
<froud> but higher priorities must come first and don't want to disappoint
<froud> clony 4 looks good
<froud> tought install was 2 b graphic
<mdke> oh i see what you mean
<froud> but better now with new prgrss bar
<froud> what translated from b4
<froud> and what need doing now
<froud> faq is new
<froud> quick guide needs merge
<froud> what else
<mdke> quickguide is not being released
<mdke> just about-ubuntu, faq, releasenotes, quicktour (html) afaics
<froud> is not qtour = new qguide?
<mdke> its essentially a totally different thing
<froud> abt ubuntu is translated into many languages
<mdke> froud, sure but it has changed since last release, so new po files need to be generated
<Madpilot> Quick Tour is a brochure, more or less. QGuide was more in-depth, wasn't it?
<froud> should get make pot.new then msgmerge pot.old
<froud> then take result to rosetta
<froud> diff will be auto displayed, no?
<mdke> no idea
<froud> How much in abtubuntu is new
<mdke> just minor changes
<froud> then we need to get all translations thereof into svn
<mdke> don't think so, we should be able to arrange the merges in rosetta i think
<froud> then make pot.new and msgmerge with pot.old
<froud> the result should go back to rose and they will see the diff, I think that was how it worked
<mdke> i'll investigate with the rosetta people
<mdke> gtg now
* Burgundavia really needs to motivate himself to work
#ubuntu-doc 2005-09-13
<mpt> Burgundavia: What are you working on?
<jsgotangco> hey guys
<jsgotangco> i finally got to understand scrollkeeper
<jsgotangco> jbailey, ping?
<jbailey> jsgotangco: Pong
<jbailey> Im' only here for a few minutes.  I also wanted to ask you for some more details of what you think could get done between now and release is mdz relaxes the freeze a bit for you guys.
<jbailey> He's certain to ask that when I email him.
<jsgotangco> clean up the CSS
<jsgotangco> its not consistent
<jsgotangco> i registered the docs last night in scrollkeeper
<jsgotangco> they look horrible
<jbailey> *lol*
<jbailey> Really? =)
<jsgotangco> About Ubuntu and FAQ Guide have 2 different CSS used
<jsgotangco> (dunno why that happened)
<jsgotangco> some parts of the doc in faqguide are quite unfriendly
<jsgotangco> and bug corey about the quick tour
<jsgotangco> as well as finish up release notes =)
<jsgotangco> basically we have two docs that are shippable
<jbailey> 'k
<jbailey> My wife is calling me.  I'll be back in a bit. =)
<ajmitch> hi jeff, jerome :)
<jsgotangco> hey hey
<Madpilot> hi jsgotangco
<jsgotangco> hey Madpilot 
<jsgotangco> whats up
* jsgotangco checks the quick tour
<Madpilot> not much, quick tour is XHTML 1.0 Strict now. Yay.
<Madpilot> so the translator app will have an easier time of it.
<jsgotangco> Madpilot, can you help out in taming our CSS?
<jsgotangco> it seems every doc has its own CSS at the moment
<jsgotangco> they don't jive at all, they look horrible in yelp, no consistency
<Madpilot> I can have a look, sure
<Madpilot> but I know nearly nothing about XML & stylesheets for XML...
<Madpilot> an Ubuntu version of this would be kind of cool: http://people.debian.org/~debacle/refcard/refcard-en-a4.pdf
<Madpilot> (post-Breezy, of course!)
<jsgotangco> ahh like a cheat sheet
<jsgotangco> ut can be done after of course as a project
<Madpilot> yeah. that one folds up into a pamphlet
<Madpilot> I was thinking that a CD-cover-sized one would be natural for Ubuntu - if it's good enough, bundle it with the Shipit CDs...
<jsgotangco> i doubt that
<jsgotangco> it'll add up more printing costs
<Madpilot> true enough - just a thought, anyway.
<Madpilot> Most of that debian refcard can be used as-is, I think
<jsgotangco> we can still publish it of course, as a PDF
<Madpilot> of course. I'll send something off to the mailing list about it
<Madpilot> but not this week, I think. It's a post-Breezy project anyway
<jsgotangco> yeah
<jsgotangco> we'll support in in 18 months so it can be released even a few weeks after Breezy =)
<Madpilot> interesting - why do the Ubuntu docs use "C" for the English versions, instead of "en"?
<jsgotangco> its a gnome thing
<jsgotangco> for some reason i have no idea as well
<jsgotangco> jeffsch asked me once about it
<ajmitch> not just GNOME, iirc
<jsgotangco> ahh
<ajmitch> I think it's a POSIX standard
<Madpilot> one of those legacy things that dates back to the early 80s or something? ;)
<ajmitch> most likely
<Madpilot> heh
<Madpilot> jsgotangco: where is the CSS for the various parts of the Ubuntu docs kept? I see a shortage of .css files in there so far...
<Madpilot> or does XML do something different with CSS files?
<jsgotangco> hmmm i would bet the make file generates the css
<Madpilot> ack.
<jsgotangco> unfortunately xslt is alien to me atm
<Madpilot> I'm going to have to learn Docbook damn quick if that's the case... 
<jsgotangco> the reason why im bugging about the HTML output is that the two docs look entirely different
<jsgotangco> it shouldn't be the case
<Madpilot> which two docs?
<Madpilot> I invented the QuickTour's current appearance out of thin air, to be honest...
<jsgotangco> about ubuntu and faqguide
<jsgotangco> try building them
<jsgotangco> make au
<jsgotangco> make fagi386
<Madpilot> never used make before - is there info in the wiki somewhere?
<jsgotangco> u got the whole docs in svn?
<jsgotangco> go to the gnome folder
<Madpilot> yes, I've got everything thru svn; in the gnome folder now
<jsgotangco> on terminal type make faqi386
<jsgotangco> and make au
<Madpilot> warning: failed to load external entity "/usr/share/xml/docbook/stylesheet/nwalsh/xhtml/docbook.xsl"
<Madpilot> and then it ends with: make: *** [au]  Error 5
<jsgotangco> hmm you probably don't have docbook-xslt
<Madpilot> I get something similar when I try make faqi386
<Madpilot> shouldn't the xslt files be in the SVN too?
<Madpilot> because I did svn up before I started trying make
<jsgotangco> no its a separate package
<jsgotangco> sudo apt-get install docbook-xsl
<Madpilot> why isn't it in with the rest of the SVN stuff?
<jsgotangco> because its a separate package
<Madpilot> ack. OK, just a sec
<rob^> hey, how did we go with the doc freeze? did it get extended or not?
<jsgotangco> no idea yet
<jsgotangco> gotta ask mdz
<rob^> why did we want it again?
<jsgotangco> well if you look at your faqguide, the wording is not yet consistent
<jsgotangco> there are still some stuff that needs to be edited
<jsgotangco> (like "go to Q.1" to "refer to the blah blah...")
<rob^> ah. I might get onto the two doing the review and suggest no major changes, just fix whats there.
<jsgotangco> yes
<jsgotangco> if you got my email today, i also noticed the difference in the css used
<rob^> jeffsh has been working on the css for the faq guide, which one are we going with though?
<jsgotangco> hmmm lamont's postfix test package broke my system
<jsgotangco> i like jeff's css
<rob^> so do I
<jsgotangco> its bold and clean
<rob^> its very nice
<jsgotangco> the faqguide looks rad in yelp
<rob^> yep :)
<jsgotangco> it took the whole space
<jsgotangco> did you try it?
<rob^> not today I havent
<jsgotangco> did you see it in yelp?
<rob^> ok, well I've gtg, I'll bbs
<jsgotangco> see ya
<rob^> the meeting is tomorrow isn't it?
<jsgotangco> yeah
<jsgotangco> 14:00
<rob^> yay midnight :)
<rob^> then I have to get up at 7 the next day for sfd!
<rob^> oh well, for the cause and all that 
<rob^> ok cya
<Madpilot> jsgotangco: finally got those two built - wow, I see what you mean about looking different...
<jsgotangco> see?
<jsgotangco> heh
<jsgotangco> nasty
<jsgotangco> yelp has its own stylesheets btw
<jsgotangco> but considering how slooowww yelp renders lately the html route was actually smart move
<Madpilot> about ubuntu also has no margins or padding - it runs text edge-to-edge, which makes for uncomfortable reading...
<jsgotangco> yes
<Madpilot> but the FAQ begins with this huge table of contents and copyright data, which isn't great either... 
<jsgotangco> what do you suggest?
<Madpilot> not sure. how about stealing some of the intro blurb stuff from about-ubuntu?
<jsgotangco> that would undermine the purpose of about ubuntu
<rob^> heh, still couldn't think of anything to write for that Madpilot? ;)
<Madpilot> rob^: nope, and it's still bugging me!
<rob^> I thought so
<Madpilot> heh.... I still think the FAQ looks too... sterile, I guess would be the word. I know a mountain of work has gone into it, but it doesn't show on that intro page right now
<jsgotangco> intro page?
<jsgotangco> ahh the first page
<Madpilot> the index page of the FAQ
<rob^> whats jeffsh, name? jeff?
<jsgotangco> yeah
<rob^> :)
<jsgotangco> hmm mdz is aiming preview sep 8
<jsgotangco> that's today
<jsgotangco> or tommorow in the west
<ajmitch> that is correct
<ajmitch> which is why the MOTUs have been sleepless trying to get universe into shape ;)
<Madpilot> once the "Draft" wallpaper is gone from the FAQ, will it just be plain white?
<jsgotangco> arrgghh the Draft is still there?
<Madpilot> yes
<Burgundavia> rob^, ping
<jsgotangco> hey Burgundavia 
<Burgundavia> jsgotangco, what
<Burgundavia> s up?
<Madpilot> hi Burgundavia
<jsgotangco> just finishing up on the scrollkeeper thing
* Burgundavia is trying out RB and is not happy
<jsgotangco> we need a consistent CSS for the HTML docs
<Burgundavia> ah
* Burgundavia would not be the person to ask about such things
<jsgotangco> have you read my email?
<Burgundavia> yeas
<Burgundavia> do I need to do that for the quicktour?
<jsgotangco> it can be done
<jsgotangco> wow my ubuntu.com email now works
<Burgundavia> mpt, ping
<Burgundavia> mpt, that should probably be pong
<jsgotangco> Burgundavia, i would prefer the Quick Tour to be the FF frontpage
<Burgundavia> instead of about ubuntu?
<jsgotangco> hmm maybe that's not a good idea
<Burgundavia> the quicktour already has some of it
<Burgundavia> I can link to it in the first page
<Burgundavia> http://www.7nights.com/asterisk/archives05/2005/09/web-standards-are-your-responsibility
<mpt> Burgundavia: really?
<Burgundavia> mpt, you asked me what I am working on. Currently review of the faqguide and finalizing the quick tour
<mpt> oh, ok
<Burgundavia> mpt, why do you ask?
<Burgundavia> mpt, I haven't had a chance to pull down ubuntu-help and start playing with that. On my list after doc freeze
<mpt> Burgundavia: I was just interested because you were talking about motivating yourself to work
<Madpilot> Burgundavia: great web-standards article, thanks.
<Burgundavia> mpt, I was having a hard time this morning before work. I am feeling better now
<jsgotangco> jeffsch!
<jeffsch> howdy
<jsgotangco> did you see my email?
<jeffsch> looking for it now... gmail is slow right now
<jeffsch> hmmm... after 5 minutes of waiting, gmail says unable to perform operation, try later
<jeffsch> ah ok. there it is.
<jeffsch> when should i remove the draft background from faqguide?
<Madpilot> before final release? ;)
<jsgotangco> well we could remove it now
<jsgotangco> but then preview relesae is now being built....
<ajmitch> as we speak
<ajmitch> :)
<jsgotangco> ye
<jsgotangco> yes
<jsgotangco> that means another rsync
<Burgundavia> jeffsch, what do you think of installing-applications right now?
<jsgotangco> the problem is that the docs use different css
<jeffsch> Burgundavia: i haven't had a chance to look at it for a coupla days
<Burgundavia> jeffsch, I did a major hack last night, removed a bunch of things
<jeffsch> jsgotangco: you can change ubuntu-doc/gnome/libs/aboutubuntu.css
<Burgundavia> jeffsch, what do you think of the idea of the quicktour as the default FF homepage?
<jsgotangco> Burgundavia, good idea if we can have FF open up on first boot
<jeffsch> hmmm.... there's no place to go to from the quicktour is there? no links to elsewhere, right?
<Burgundavia> jeffsch, currently no, but I can add them
<Burgundavia> jeffsch, jsgotangco what the legal requirements with the old stuff in our repos (the quickguide, etc.)
<jeffsch> what do you mean by legal requirements?
<jsgotangco> legal?
<Burgundavia> do we need to keep them?
<Burgundavia> can we shuffle them into a archive?
<jsgotangco> no we'll create a branch for old stuff
<jsgotangco> old stuff gets branched
<jsgotangco> jbailey will help us clean up
<Burgundavia> ok
<jsgotangco> branching would be better than deleting the stuff
<Burgundavia> yelp actually renders the quicktour faster than FF
<jsgotangco> sure
<Burgundavia> 1.5 seconds for yelp and 4 for FF
<jsgotangco> yelp is pretty fast with html
<jsgotangco> the faqguide was very smooth after registering
<Burgundavia> jsgotangco, how much of this gloria stuff is smoke and how much is fire?
<jeffsch> ok, i just removed the draft watermark. if you need to put it back, change faqguide-html-cust.xsl
<jeffsch> <xsl:param name="draft.mode" select="'no'"/> becomes
<jeffsch> <xsl:param name="draft.mode" select="'yes'"/>
<jeffsch> and that's all there is to it.
<jsgotangco> Burgundavia, the impeachment?
<Burgundavia> jsgotangco, ya
<jsgotangco> Burgundavia, majority of the people think she cheated outright
<jsgotangco> but she has hold of congress so
<jsgotangco> she's probably the most powerful woman in asia at the moment
<jsgotangco> i think she's 4th in the world for women
<Burgundavia> ok, I need specific feedback on the quicktour
<Burgundavia> the lead section "About Ubuntu
<Burgundavia> "
<Burgundavia> anything you would add/remove from there?
<Burgundavia> 2nd thing
<Burgundavia> What you think of the line "Ubuntu: It's Great" for the start of the general Ubuntu features
<jsgotangco> Burgundavia, have you consulted davyd?
<Burgundavia> jsgotangco, why?
<jsgotangco> just ask his opinion he's the one doing a lot for gnome pr you know
<Burgundavia> jsgotangco, doing so
<Burgundavia> salut rob^ 
<Burgundavia> salut robitaille 
<jsgotangco> jeffsch, ok i'll check the xsl
<robitaille> hello Burgundavia 
<jsgotangco> jeffsch, won't it be possible to use the same CSS for all?
<jeffsch> yeah it's possible.
<jeffsch> anything's possible, given enough time and effort
<jsgotangco> ok what should i do to make About Ubuntu and FAQ Guide consistent
<Burgundavia> we talking applying the same css to the quicktour/faqguide and about? or just about and faqguide?
<jeffsch> for now though, if you want the CSS to be the same for faqguide and about ubuntu
<jsgotangco> Burgundavia, all docs should be consistent
<jsgotangco> they look silly
<jeffsch> just clobber the aboutubuntu.css with the faqguide.css
<jsgotangco> the faqguide output looks rad
<jsgotangco> while aboutubuntu is just plain ugly
<Burgundavia> aboutubuntu is much too wordy
<Madpilot> I prefer the aboutubuntu appearance myself, except for the lack of margins
<Burgundavia> for that matter ubuntu.com is much too wordy
<jsgotangco> bleah its what we have for now and let's improve on it instead of changing
<Burgundavia> ya
<Burgundavia> mpt has a spec for UBZ about changing ubuntu.com
<jsgotangco> sure
<jsgotangco> but thats a month from now
<jsgotangco> let's fix the css first =_
<jsgotangco> )
<jsgotangco> err guys
<jsgotangco> css thoughts?
<Madpilot> use the ubuntuguide CSS for everything, but with the QuickTour coloured header tags
<jsgotangco> err how do i do that =)
<Madpilot> not sure of the docbook/XML details, but copy the aboutubuntu css, replace the h1,h2,h3<etc> styles with the ones from QuickTour's embedded CSS?
<Madpilot> oh, and add margins all around the aboutubuntu CSS, it really needs them...
<Burgundavia> what do you people think of the Ubuntu logo/strapline in the quicktour?
<Burgundavia> it is currently 700px wide, which is going to look bad on smaller screens
<Madpilot> looks fine to me - it'll look big on 800x640 screens, but there's fewer and fewer of them around, thank dog...
<Madpilot> how tall is it?
<Burgundavia> not very, no idea
<jsgotangco> this css thing is way over my head
<jsgotangco> (its been years since i did this)
<jsgotangco> but i will do it
<Madpilot> jsgotangco: CSS I can manage, it's the XML/Docbook side that I'm behind on...
<Madpilot> let me have a look at the aboutubuntu css for a second
<Burgundavia> grrr
<Burgundavia> ok, this thing is bloody transparent, but is showing as grey
<Madpilot> the ubuntu strap png?
<Burgundavia> ya
<Burgundavia> both yelp and FF render the background as grey
<Burgundavia> should I render a new version with a white background?
<Madpilot> the one currently in the SVN seems to work OK in Opera & hoary's yelp
<Burgundavia> must be a new gecko issue
<Burgundavia> let me get my new version into svn
<Madpilot> leave it transparent, we've been talking about changing the whole background colour, remember?
<Burgundavia> yes
<Burgundavia> grr, it is being rendered as having a grey background
<jsgotangco> the png?
<jsgotangco> yeah
<jsgotangco> it sucks
<Madpilot> OK, I just noticed that the faqguide.css uses the same brown colour for headers (h1, h2, etc) and links, which I don't think is too cool...
<Burgundavia> I just rendered one from the svg to the proper size, but it displays the same issue
<Burgundavia> oh, that is it
<Burgundavia> grr
<Burgundavia> our style sheet is defining a grey background
<Madpilot> ha
<Madpilot> just checked, and I was wrong - I'm getting a grey background in Opera/Hoary as well. damn.
<Burgundavia> then I typed "background-colour" and it barfed at that
<Burgundavia> commmitted the fix
<Madpilot> in css, just use background in the body tag
<Madpilot> no such thing as background-color anymore
<Madpilot> which fix?
<Burgundavia> the background-color is on the image tag
<Madpilot> huh?
<Burgundavia> .main img {
<Burgundavia> 	background-color: #F1F1F1;
<Madpilot> THAT's the DAMN problem!
<Madpilot> I'd forgotten that there's a pale grey background behind every image in that quick guide!
<Burgundavia> should I just drop that whole line?
<Burgundavia> 	<img src="UbuntuStrapLogo.png" style="width:700px;border:0;background-color: #FFFFFF;" alt="" title="Ubuntu: Linux For Human Beings logo" />
<Burgundavia> I just did that to hack around it
<Madpilot> no wonder we can't get the transparent image to show clear!
<Madpilot> that'll do
<jsgotangco> it works now
<Madpilot> inline styles are more specific  that embedded, so it'll override.
<Burgundavia> Madpilot, can you confirm that works in Opera?
* Burgundavia really needs to test this thing in IE (shudder)
<Madpilot> yeah, it's fixed. nice and transparent.
* Madpilot kicks himself for forgetting about the grey background behind every image in QuickTour...
<Burgundavia> but that breaks if we change the background colour
<Burgundavia> can I set the background to be transparent?
<Madpilot> just a second, let me check something
<Burgundavia> what do people think of FFFFE5?
<Burgundavia> for a background colour
<Madpilot> for the whole quicktour doc?
<Burgundavia> YES
<Burgundavia> oops
<Madpilot> sure
<Madpilot> OK, here's how to fix the images - it's easier for me to tell you than it is to generate a diff here
<Burgundavia> not on the palette
<Burgundavia> but nothing on the palette really looks good
<Madpilot> Burgundavia: find the ".main img" tag on the quicktour stylesheet
<Burgundavia> ok
<Madpilot> delete both the "background-color<etc>" and the "border<etc" lines. leave the padding line
<Madpilot> then you can shorten the style in the ubuntu logo to just the height & width
<Burgundavia> ok
<jsgotangco> guys don't you think the ubuntu logo is too large
<Madpilot> that nukes the grey background that was screwing up our transparent png
<jsgotangco> i'm in 1024x768 and it took a quarter of the FF screen
<Burgundavia> ok
<Madpilot> looks fine here, but I do run 1200x1024..
<jsgotangco> 1200 =(
<Burgundavia> ok, shrunk it to 400px wide
<Madpilot> OK, just resized Opera quickly - yeah, it is too big!
<Burgundavia> ok, 400px version hitting the repos
<Madpilot> how about getting the faq and aboutubuntu using the same coloured headers as quickguide? 
<Madpilot> I like them - but they were my idea - and I think they give a nice tie-in with the Ubuntu logo
<jsgotangco> do they look nice with Human?
<jeffsch> i have to sleep... only got a couple hours last night, and have to get up early again... cya's
<jsgotangco> night jeff
<Madpilot> night jeffsch
<Madpilot> jsgotangco: alongside the default Ubuntu desktop themes, you mean? 
<jsgotangco> yes
<Madpilot> Just a sec, I'll reset my theme
<jsgotangco> the overall look and feel
<Burgundavia> ok
<Madpilot> http://www.warbard.ca/temp/ubuntuQT.png  <-- current QT w/ Human (in Opera) - I think it looks fine alongside the brown
<jsgotangco> it looks too white
<jsgotangco> (the background)
<Madpilot> it's very white. trouble is that the Ubuntu-palette-tan is really too dark, I think.
<jsgotangco> it doesn't jive with human
<jsgotangco> hmmm
<jsgotangco> but text doesn't jive with darker backgrounds either
<Madpilot> actually, if we use #d9bb7a as a background, it might work. it's a U-palette colour, and subdued enough - and light enough - that it might work
<Madpilot> screenshot in a second
<Burgundavia> I tried that, found it too dark
<Madpilot> http://www.warbard.ca/temp/QT2.png <-- with d9bb7a
<Madpilot> I like it; there is a paler palette colour but I think that one is too pinkish
<jsgotangco> hmmm
<jsgotangco> its ok for quick tour
<Burgundavia> ok, it will go in
<Madpilot> a bit much for the whole faq/about section, you think?
<jsgotangco> but not for the text-savvy faqguide
<Burgundavia> hmm, the orange on that becomes quite hard to read
<Madpilot> the orange we're using for h1? yeah, it is a bit.
<Burgundavia> should I revert back to FFFFE5?
<Madpilot> maybe
<Madpilot> how about a different colour for the h1 instead?
<Burgundavia> what is the background colour for the login screen?
<Burgundavia> it fades from white to that colour
<Burgundavia> s/that colour/d9bb7a
<Madpilot> hmm? do you mean "is that colour d9bb7a? no idea, I autologin! ;)
<Madpilot> the colour on the right-hand side of the ubuntu.com top banner is almost certainly d9bb7a
<Burgundavia> what about doing a band at the top of the quicktour, ala the webpage?
<Madpilot> sure - have a look at the website, and steal their code and images.
<Madpilot> sorry, I'm going to have to call it a night. been a long day and I work in less than 8hrs
<Burgundavia> ok
<Madpilot> 9-5 bites... ;)
* Burgundavia works 4-9 tomorrow
<Madpilot> OK, I will see you all around
<Madpilot> good night
<rob^> Burgundavia, pong
<Burgundavia> rob^, do you think installing applications needs more work?
<rob^> only minor touch-ups, I like how it is now
<Burgundavia> ok
<rob^> a few things need rapping in <application> tags and stuff
<Burgundavia> ok
<mdke> omg
<rob^> ?
<mdke> did you guys see http://www.ubuntux.org/
<Burgundavia> yes
<rob^> whats that about?
<mdke> another forking of resources it seems
<rob^> yeah..
<rob^> look at the side panel
<mdke> lots of docs
<Burgundavia> rob^, mdke, you guys use evolution?
<mdke> yes
<rob^> yes
<rob^> hmm some of that stuff is really bad..
<Burgundavia> I need a tag line for the quicktour
<rob^> lots of links to the wiki too, whats the point?
<Burgundavia> "Read your email in evolution"
<Burgundavia> doesn't really do evo justice
<rob^> well, thats what it does :)
<rob^> maybe you can play the outlook angle
<Burgundavia> yes, but is also does calendaring and address book
<rob^> connect to imap servers etc etc
<rob^> yes that too
<Burgundavia> the tag line needs to be about 5-10 words
<Burgundavia> VERB with APPLICATION
<rob^> quote from that site "Next follow the instructions on the Ubuntu Wiki.
<rob^> "
<mdke> i think you need the word office in there
<mdke> can't think how though
<rob^> like, what the, batman?!?
<jsgotangco> organise your life with Evolution
<mdke> lol
<mdke> be one with your computer with Evolution
<rob^> Evolution: your personal assistant.
<jsgotangco> Keep track of your activities and correspondence with Evo
<jsgotangco> ditch the Keep
<jsgotangco> grrr this is like gnome-marketing
<jsgotangco> except we're docs not marketing
<jsgotangco> heh
<rob^> is there something you could steal from them?
<jsgotangco> http://www.gnome.org/projects/evolution/
<jsgotangco> Organise and collaborate with Evolution
<Burgundavia> Email, Organize and collaborate with Evolution?
<mdke> nice
<jsgotangco> yeah
<mdke> have you got something for the language-selector in quicktour?
<Burgundavia> yes
<jsgotangco> organize and collaborate are corporate terms
<jsgotangco> heh
<Burgundavia> are our docs US or Int. english?
<jsgotangco> i'd rather go international
<Burgundavia> but organize is US
<jsgotangco> but the press usually uses US
<mdke> i've seen a lot of Z's in our docs
<Burgundavia> ya
<Burgundavia> as a Canuck, I move between the two quite easily
<mdke> is there something about usplash in there too?
<mdke> sorry for dumb questions
<Burgundavia> not currently
<Burgundavia> like menu editing, it is not a "feature"
<jsgotangco> don't think its really a feature
<Burgundavia> it is just something that people expect to hapen
<mdke> hmm
<mdke> maybe you're right
<rob^> hey what do you guys think about the 2001 Holden Astra?
* Burgundavia wonders what a Holden Astra is
<rob^> heh
<rob^> a car
<rob^> http://content2.dealernet.com.au/vfile/image/webpage/stock/640x480/300058.jpg
<Burgundavia> don't exist in Canada
<rob^> probably not, it might be called something different over there
<Burgundavia> likely
<rob^> I think they might be called Buick or something?
<Burgundavia> hmm, doesn;t look like a buick
<Burgundavia> buick's are huge Amurican cars
<Burgundavia> anyway, I have to crash, is 2am here
<rob^> ok, night
<Burgundavia> feel free to work on the quicktour
<Kinnison> night burgey
<rob^> yeah, they are buick
<jsgotangco> Holdens are nice
<rob^> yeah, it looks pretty sweet
<jsgotangco> i wish i could get one over here i just bought a 2004 Kia Picanto
<rob^> with $1.30/L fuel here atm I want to trade in my petrol-munching V6 ford
<jsgotangco> its understandable
<jsgotangco> my car is 1.1 petrol
<rob^> the Holden Astra is 1.8
<jsgotangco> that's big
<jsgotangco> heh
<jsgotangco> i'd rather get a really small car
<rob^> compared to my ford with 4.something L ford it isnt
<jsgotangco> are you looking for a hatchback or a convertible?
<rob^> hatchback
<rob^> 4 door, got kids and stuff
<jsgotangco> yeah hatchbacks are for families
<rob^> or is it 5 door?
<jsgotangco> yes
<rob^> one at the back
<jsgotangco> 5 door is the correct term
<rob^> yeah
<rob^> I have to see the scary bank manager tomorrow :''(
<jsgotangco> i believe jdub owns a barina
<jsgotangco> (it was really small)
<rob^> they are
<rob^> like a human sardine can
<jsgotangco> heh
<jsgotangco> we fit
<jsgotangco> au cabs are huge though
<rob^> not in the little cars
<rob^> there is heaps of 6 cyl fords and holdens at the car yards atm, very few 4 cyl ones
<rob^> the are almost the same price year for year model
<rob^> pretty funny really
<jsgotangco> when i was in sydney i was always looking at the showrooms at kings cross
* rob^ checks out insurance costs
<rob^> what.. designed only for IE 5.5 only, we cannot offer you a quote online? Yeah, well your not getting my business then!
<mdz> where can I find the release notes work in progress?
<mdke> mdz, it hasn't started yet properly. everything we have is at http://doc.ubuntu.com/gnome/release-notes/C/release-notes.htm
<mdke> i think it hasn't been updated since hoary though
<mdz> 404
<mdke> works here
<mdke> http://doc.ubuntu.com/gnome/release-notes/C/release-notes.html
<mdke> sorry bad paste
<mdz> ok, I thought that if you had something it would help in preparing the preview announcement
<mdke> mdz, we have something else hang on
<mdke> damn haven't got a preview of it
<mdke> mdz, https://docteam.ubuntu.com/repos/trunk/gnome/quicktour/quicktour.html
<mdke> sorry, it's not on our preview server
<mdz> weird, firefox renders thatt page as plain text, not html
<mdke> here too
<mdke> it's a svn server
<mdz> the server is sending content-type text/plain
<mdz> ah
<mdke> mdz, download it and open it locally
<mdz> most of those items aren't new in breezy
<mdke> i'll copy it to our preview server
<mdke> mdz, burgundavia is working on that doc, perhaps email him via the list with comments?
<mdz> mdke: we're going to put together a preview announcement; someone will want to merge that content into the release notes
<mdz> since we'll basically be writing release notes for breezy
<mdke> yeah that would be good
<mdke> mdz, we'll need a partial extension of document freeze to do the release notes however
<mdz> what happened?  I thought we agreed that this was a reasonable compromise between time for doc authors and translators
<mdke> yeah
<mdz> delaying the start of the freeze is unfair to translators
<mdke> the other docs are ok I think... but releasenotes haven't been done
<mdke> mdz, yeah I agree
<mdz> any changes made during the freeze need to be brought to the attention of the translators so that they know they need to retranslate if they've already done it
<mdke> we haven't yet opened anything for translation
<mdke> it needs to go into rosetta, then we'll announce a call for translation
<mdke> with your permission, we'll hold back on doing that for releasenotes, given that they haven't been written yet
<mdz> up to you
<mdz> just make sure your work gets uploaded to breezy regularly; jbailey can help 
<mdke> ok
<jsgotangco> hi
<mdke> i haven't been in the loop lately, i don't know if an upload has been done yet
<jsgotangco> sorry i was out
<jsgotangco> jbailey uploaded faqguide and about ubuntu
<jsgotangco> but hasn't registered them to scrollkeeper/yelp
<mdke> as separate packages?
<jsgotangco> no
<jsgotangco> i think as ubuntu-doc
<mdke> ah ok
<mdke> bbbl
<jsgotangco> if you notice my email today it was about registring the doc to scrollkeeper
<jsgotangco> mdz, there's already new docs in the seeds, just not registered with sk and yelp
<mdke> jsgotangco, will you email the list today about freezing the docs?
<mdke> that way, we can try and get them ready for translation ASAP
<jsgotangco> i will announce the freeze?
<mdke> is it today?
<jsgotangco> yes
<mdke> maybe make it the last day for changes?
<jsgotangco> okay
<jsgotangco> hmmmm
<mdke> i'll start bugging carlos about getting things in rosetta
<jsgotangco> the faqguide is still incomplete atm because of the inconsistencies of the entries
<jsgotangco> some still have the Q.x stuff
<mdke> it's not releaseable?
<jsgotangco> it is
<jsgotangco> its just not consistent
<mdke> oh
<mdke> so what are we gonna do?
<jsgotangco> hmm let me svn up and see the status
<jsgotangco> i might be up all night just to edit them
<jsgotangco> rob^, ping?
<rob^> hi
<rob^> yeah just been reading the scrollback
<jsgotangco> how complete is the edited faqguide
<rob^> I think that has been fixed now, let me just check
<rob^> there are a few on Apache and streaming media server that need to be fixed
<rob^> thats it, I'll do it now 
<jsgotangco> ok please ping me when its done so i can announce the freeze for the two docs
<rob^> ok np
<jsgotangco> hmm
<jsgotangco> wait you'll patch again
<jsgotangco> heh
<jsgotangco> ok
<rob^> yeah :)
<jsgotangco> ok i'll wait for the patch (im having a bad case of migraine now)
<rob^> I just got back from the pub myself 
<rob^> lucky I only had 1
<mdke> jsgotangco, another thing to think about for the freeze is the kubuntu docs as well as the ubuntu ones
<mdke> i gtg now
<jsgotangco> mdke, i'll check the kubuntu doc in a minute
<jsgotangco> arrghhh kubuntu still has some nasty doc errors
<rob^> yep
<jsgotangco> ok about kubuntu builds
<jsgotangco> rob^, done
<jsgotangco> ?
<rob^> the only problem with breaking up the faq is trying to find which line has an error when you vailidate it :(
<jsgotangco> usually its can be easily debugged if you tag it properly
<rob^> we use the same tags so much that if you make lots of changes its a pain
<jsgotangco> ok  kfaqguidei386 builds
<rob^> it will be a very gnomeified kde guide though
<rob^> not very many kde apps in it
<jsgotangco> hmmm
<jsgotangco> maybe we should not include kubuntu faqguide
<jsgotangco> what you think
<jsgotangco> it still has kynaptic
<rob^> I think not
<jsgotangco> include it?
<rob^> can we release it later after release?
<rob^> as an update or something to ubuntu-doc?
<jsgotangco> no
<jsgotangco> i doubt
<rob^> well, I guess we have a choice
<rob^> really I think it would confuse a lot of kde users
<jsgotangco> we can make it a universe package though
<rob^> wow my pc seems really slow after an update today..
<jsgotangco> hmm i like the css of the kubuntu docs
<jsgotangco> rob^, are you done?
<rob^> hmm I still have 47mb ram free out of 512, evolution is taking forever
<rob^> almost
<rob^> one thing I have to add then that is it
<jsgotangco> ok
<jsgotangco> hmmm
<jsgotangco> i only have 1 kubuntu doc
<jsgotangco> still need to check that kqg
<jsgotangco> mdke, ping?
<mdke> ?
<jsgotangco> what say you about kubuntu
<jsgotangco> kfaqguide is really spotty
<rob^> yes, because its not done
<jsgotangco> kquickguide will need some editing that i can probably manage later
<mdke> not sure, I haven't seen it.
<rob^> I don't use kde and haven't had the time to do it
<mdke> leave kfaqguide probably
<rob^> yep
<mdke> what about the userguide?
<jsgotangco> kubuntu?
<mdke> yes
<jsgotangco> let me build that
<mdke> jsgotangco, use the preview server dude
<jsgotangco> its full of errors
<mdke> doc.ubuntu.com/kde
<jsgotangco> the thing won't build
<rob^> hmm we havn't profiled for ppc yet..
<jsgotangco> is this even updated?
<rob^> should I include OSX .iso burning instructions that everyone can see?
<rob^> or just leave it at windows and ubuntu
<jsgotangco> ditch it if its going to take you some time
<rob^> yeah.. I might not worry about it
<mdke> the frontpage is an important issue because it should link to the other docs
<rob^> the faqguide now validates ok, just gonna give it a quick build and read thru
<jsgotangco> frontpage of yelp?
<mdke> yes, we agreed it was to be the faqguide
<rob^> yes
<jsgotangco> hmmm
<jsgotangco> it can be registered in yelp
<jsgotangco> (no idea how to make it the frontpage)
<jsgotangco> i can put it in the front as an index
<mdke> yeah
<mdke> but then links needs to be made, also the massive list of people's names needs to go
<jsgotangco> people's names?
<mdke> oh sorry
<mdke> that has gone
<mdke> great
<rob^> all done :)
<jsgotangco> mdke, did you see my email re: scrollkeeper?
<rob^> the revision has also been moved
<mdke> jsgotangco, yes
<mdke> i really gtg now
<jsgotangco> *groan*
<jsgotangco> hmmm jjesse last updated the kquickguide
<jsgotangco> but didn't validate sheeshh
<rob^> hehe annoying hey?
<jsgotangco> good thing its only one document
<jsgotangco> ok let me fix this now
<jsgotangco> i can't fucking find it
<jsgotangco> grrr
<jsgotangco> im getting pissed
<rob^> ah wtf?
<jsgotangco> i still dont have your patch
<rob^> have you seen the sun-j2re1.5 package, is that now java included in Ubuntu?
<jsgotangco> eh?
<jsgotangco> we dont have java
<jsgotangco> we have blackbox in multiverse
<rob^> check it out
<rob^> The Java(TM) 2 Runtime Environment contains the Java virtual machine,
<rob^> runtime class libraries, and Java application launcher that are
<rob^> necessary to run programs written in the Java progamming language
<rob^> (this includes the Java 2 Plug-In for Netscape and Mozilla
<rob^> browsers).
<rob^> This package has been automatically created with java-package (0.25build1).
<jsgotangco> where did you get that
<rob^> ah ignore me
<rob^> I am dumb, thats a package I made
<jsgotangco> kquickguide won't be coming in its too messy
<jsgotangco> unless jjesse reads emai llater
* jsgotangco pokes rob^ come on gimme the patch so i can send to the list
<rob^> hang on, just reading thru fixing up any last inconsistancies
<rob^> just a question, you want to remove all Q4 type links, even on the same page?
<jsgotangco> what did jeffsch do
<rob^> he did half and half, its kind of messed up
<rob^> I will fix it
<jsgotangco> i know
<jsgotangco> that's what i was saying about consistency
<rob^> I kind of wish he left it now
<jsgotangco> i didnt involve myself because i might conflict with someone else
<jsgotangco> rob^, yeah 
<jsgotangco> it does look good though
<rob^> yes, might take me 30min-an hour to fix this though
<jsgotangco> ill give you my account if you need it
<jsgotangco> i need to test something
<jsgotangco> brb
<jsgotangco> i'll send an email later regarding the freeze
<jsgotangco> since sept. 8 is still not done in other parts of the globe, we're still relatively safe =)
<rob^> ok I'll be here until the faq is done
<gvrocha> Does anyone knows how hot a processor can get while not too loaded? I have just run acpi to find out mine is at 66C while not too loaded...
<gvrocha> Is there anyway I can control the fan from the command line? Mine does not seem to ever be getting to the high speed...
<jsgotangco> mdz, i've already announced the freeze by the end of the day and will only allow exceptions upon confirmation to you
<jsgotangco> s/to/from
<jsgotangco> jjesse, 
<jsgotangco> right
<jjesse> yes
<jsgotangco> just the man we need
<jjesse> oh boy :)
<jsgotangco> kquickguide is it done?
<jjesse> it was until it was just decided to move from knyaptic to adept
<jjesse> so that has to be redone
<jjesse> but then it will be done
<jsgotangco> can you do it before the day ends?
<jsgotangco> today is supposed to be freeze
<jsgotangco> see my email
<jsgotangco> jjesse, and the doc doesn't validate atm
<jsgotangco> i tried building it
<jjesse> to be honest i haven't worked much on it
<jsgotangco> i was thinking of taking a stab at it but no idea where to start and don't want to undermine your work
<jjesse> i take it froud has stopped doing docs? he did all of it the first time
<jsgotangco> jjesse, can it be included for release?
<jsgotangco> froud is not active anymore
<jjesse> when is end of day?
<jsgotangco> today =)
<jsgotangco> sept. 8
<jjesse> well end of day in what time zone?
<jsgotangco> oh don't worry about the timezone
<jsgotangco> just today =) to wherever you are
<jjesse> grin
<jsgotangco> because the docs need to be translated
<jsgotangco> if the kquickguide isn't really reliable, we'll just pass on it
<jjesse> to be honest i doubt i will have much time to work on it the only change that i have seen is adept
<jjesse> so we just need to rip out kynaptic and put in adept
<jsgotangco> i have no idea
<jjesse> that's what i'm saying is what needs to be changed in 
<jjesse> riddell just mentioned yesterday that it was going to be incldued on #kubuntu
<jsgotangco> i have no idea about adept at all
<jjesse> let me see how my day at work goes and i'll try to hack at it while i work
<jsgotangco> ok please email the list about it if its going in or not
<jsgotangco> i appreciate it
<jjesse> no problem
<jjesse> am i the only one doing kubuntu docs?
<jsgotangco> unfortunately, yes
<jjesse> wow i didn't realize that
<jsgotangco> let me check on riddel
<jsgotangco> if he's ok with no freeze, we'll fix the doc
<jjesse> i see that chat on #kubuntu
<jjesse> i'll try and get kquickguide done first and then move on 
<jjesse> i guess i wasn't aware that i was the only kubuntu doc writer :(
<jsgotangco> sorry about that i was quite busy with other stuff
<jjesse> no worries i'll just trudge along
<rob^> bloody gedit, buggy piece of crap
<rob^> fuck, I just lost 10 mins worth of work :(
<jsgotangco> k at least we have some more time for kubuntu
<jsgotangco> i better take a rest first before i just drop
<jbailey> jsgotangco: Good night. =)
<jsgotangco> gahhh
<jsgotangco> jbailey hi
<jsgotangco> did you read my email?
<jbailey> (I'm in exactly the wrong timezone for you guys, aren't I?)
<jsgotangco> jbailey, no worries its only 9pm
<jsgotangco> just been in irc all day
<jbailey> Nope, I see it there, though.
<jsgotangco> its about the scrollkeeper thing
<jsgotangco> we still have the freeze for today
<jbailey> I can take care of that packaging.
<jbailey> Even with a freeze, I don't think there's any problem in normalising CSS and adding this to Yelp.
<jbailey> (Since they aren't strings)
<jsgotangco> yes
<jsgotangco> jbailey, i have no idea how to register the doc in sk/yelp during stage 2
<jbailey> I'm just trying to find it in the backscroll for the email to mdz.  Yous aid that your biggest worry was CSS and the scrollkeeper for the freeze rather than actual documentation changes, yes?
<jbailey> Or were there doc changes, too?
<jbailey> stage 2?
<jbailey> You mean of the installer?
<jsgotangco> yes
<jbailey> I think just doing it in the postinst and doing the trick that other apps use if scrollkeeper isn't installed yet should work fine.
<jbailey> cdbs / debhelper already have that magic.
<jsgotangco> ahh
<jsgotangco> im not worried about the css
<jsgotangco> its already fixed atm
<jsgotangco> just needs polishing to other docs
<jbailey> Now that you've done that hackery, I'm not worried aboutyelp.
<jbailey> So what else is there for documentation changes?
<jsgotangco> just release notes now
<jsgotangco> mdz was looking for it
<jsgotangco> ngghhh
<jbailey> If there isn't enough to bug mdz about, we can take the time in the next couple of weeks to get everything cleaned up in prep for dapper
<jbailey> Release notes?  At this stage?
<jbailey> That's insane.
<jsgotangco> right
<jbailey> The whole point of release notes are generally things that you can't know at this point, you would've documented / fixed them.
<jsgotangco> i've indicated release notes as an exception to the freeze
<jsgotangco> because of its nature
<jsgotangco> other than that we're relatively safe
<jbailey> Cool.
<jbailey> I haven't seen a respone to my request for access yet.  What URL do you use for accessing svn?  I'd like to try it before I ask again.
<jsgotangco> https://docteam.ubuntu.com/repos/trunk
<jsgotangco> use my account if you want i dont mind
<jbailey> Username and pass, or ssl cert?
<jsgotangco> l/p
<rob^> jsgotangco, ok all I need to do now is a quick proof read then I will email the patches
<jsgotangco> ok i will wait
<rob^> ah crap I missed one!
* jsgotangco shows rob^ a flaming sword of doc justice
<jsgotangco> hey George^Deka 
<rob^> serves me right for letting two people go..
<jsgotangco> rob^, ?
<rob^> well the intention was good, but omg they messed it up
<jjesse> the faqguide or something else?
<rob^> faq guide
<jsgotangco> yeah
<jsgotangco> its terribly inconsistent now
<rob^> its almost fixed :)
<jsgotangco> i gotta take a nap first
<jsgotangco> jjesse, you still got svn access?
<jjesse> yeah
<jsgotangco> jjesse, can you patch a diff?
<jjesse> yeah i can, not right now as i'm in windows andm y svn stuff is on my linux partittion
<jjesse> but i can
<jsgotangco> ok i need a favor, im in a terrible state atm i need to rest, if i don't get to patch rob^ 's diff can you do it if you are not busy?
<jsgotangco> don't do it if you can't i can do it later
<jjesse> sure no problem did rob^ already upload the diff?
<jsgotangco> i just have to go offline for a while
<rob^> no not yep
<rob^> yet
<jbailey> afk for a bit
<jjesse> ok go offline for a while and if i have a chance i'll upload it when it comes out
<jsgotangco> jjesse, thanks i'll look into the other kubuntu docs later
<jsgotangco> we'll sort it out by this weekend
<jsgotangco> ktnxbi
<rob^> what is the update application called?
<_jjesse> in ubuntu or kubuntu?
<rob^> ubuntu
<_jjesse> ubuntu it synatpci right? or did they change it?
<rob^> the one that appears when you click show me on that popup
<George^Deka> ubuntu update manager
<rob^> thanks George^Deka 
<jjesse> grin I haven't used ubuntu in awhile
<George^Deka> i only knew cause i went and found it - i dont use it cause im on silly dial up - damn telstra !
<jjesse> at least i'm not the only dial up user :(
* rob^ goes and gets coffee
<rob^> is anyone here?
<rob^> can we get the sections of the GNU GFDL on the one link (not expanded like they are now)?
<gvrocha> Does anyone knows how hot a processor can get while not too loaded? I have just run acpi to find out mine is at 66C while not too loaded...
<rob^> gvrocha, try #ubuntu
<rob^> ping mpt
<rob^> can someone commit those patches for me?
<mpt> rob^: pong
<rob^> mpt, ^
<jjesse> did you send them to the list? i didn't see any patches come across
<mpt> rob^: I don't have svn access, if that's what you're asking
<rob^> yes
<rob^> mpt, oh sorry
<rob^> the faq guide is done now
<rob^> once those patches are commited :)
<jjesse> congrats
<mdke> lemme see what I can do
<rob^> wtf?
<rob^> Your mail to 'ubuntu-doc' with the subject
<rob^>     Faq Guide Finished
<rob^> Is being held until the list moderator can review it for approval
<rob^> the attachments must be too big
<rob^> :)
<rob^> ah: Message body is too big: 83765 bytes with a limit of 40 KB
<mdke> yeah there is a limit
<mdke> post the attachments individually?
<rob^> will it still get thru?
<mdke> if they are smaller than 40kb
<mdke> they'll get through
<rob^> ok holdon
<rob^> that should be all nine of em
<mdke> right I'll have a look
<rob^> ok, the only thing I haven't done in those patches is mark all the sections "finished", apart from that its done
<mdke> ok
<mdke> rob^, what is the quick and easy command to apply em?
<rob^> umm
<rob^> jjesse, whats the easy way to apply diffs?
<mdke> i'll figure it
<rob^> dam, there are no svn docs on the website!
<rob^> how stupid
<rob^> apparently you just use patch
<mdke> got it
<mdke> i've done the first 4
<mdke> revision 1738
<rob^> cool
<mdke> grr
<mdke> can't get the fdl one to work
<rob^> hmm
<rob^> its in a different directory
<mdke> yeah
<mdke> i'm trying in the right folder
<rob^> odd
<rob^> what is it saying?
<mdke> nothing, it just stops
<mdke> hang on
<mdke> they are just stopping...
<mdke> matt@kallisto:~/ubuntu-docs/trunk/generic/faqguide/C$ patch -p0 > hardware.xml.diff 
<rob^> I wonder if it is the revision number
<mdke> perhaps because of the different revision
<rob^> yeah
<rob^> perhaps you needed to apply them all at once
<rob^> just revert the four that you did, once you get all nine then patch it
<mdke> how do I revert?
<rob^> hmm.. good question
<rob^> I know how to do it locally
<mdke> i could try and edit the patch revision number?
<rob^> I'll ask in #svn
<rob^> might work, might cause pain though
<mdke> doesn't seem to work
<rob^> http://svnbook.red-bean.com/en/1.0/ch04s04.html#svn-ch-4-sect-4.2
<rob^> check that out
<rob^> reverting that commit might be painful too
<mdke> let's try
<rob^> ok
<mdke>  svn merge -r 1738:1737 https://docteam.ubuntu.com/repos/trunk
<mdke> i tried that
<rob^> sounds about right
<rob^> did you do the rest?
<mdke> doing it
<rob^> ie svn status, svn diff etc
<rob^> ah ok
<mdke> i get the feeling it won't help though
<mdke> ok i've reverted the changes, but the revision number is now 1739 :(
<rob^> bugger..
<rob^> what if I email you my working copies, you copy/paste then do a commit on them?
<mdke> ok
<mdke> matthew.east@breathe.com
<rob^> ok hold on
<mdke> sorry about this
<rob^> nah np
<rob^> we are both learning :)
<mdke> yep
<mdke> no idea if copy and paste will work
<rob^> I think it might
<mdke> hope so
<mdke> let's have this email
<rob^> gone
<mdke> here it is
<mdke> all the way around the world
<rob^> I .tar.gz the faq guide WCs
<mdke> works
<rob^> nice!!
<mdke> lemme do them all
<mdke> ok done at revision 1741
<mdke> phew
<mdke> sorry about that
<mdke> nice work!
<rob^> :)
<mdke> you can go to bed now...
<rob^> yay
<rob^> so tired..
<mdke> i'll keep an eye on the cricket
<rob^> oh I forgot about that
<rob^> how are things going?
<mdke> great first day
<mdke> we're batting 288 for 5
<mdke> it's been up and down
<rob^> england?
<mdke> your pie-eating, cheating son of a pirate Warne is doing well though
<rob^> hehe
<rob^> thats a good score though
<mdke> the pitch is pretty solid
<rob^> looks like you might win one finally
<mdke> nah it's way too early for that
<rob^> yeah
<mdke> it's an average score i reckon
<rob^> if you get bored, feel free to change "review" to "finished" on the faq guide ;)
<rob^> yeah, expect australia to come out swinging
<mdke> ok
* mdke nods
<rob^> cool
<mdke> night mate
<rob^> time for bed, gotta see the bank manager for my car loan tomorrow at 9am
<rob^> :(
<rob^> night, and thanks for ya help
<mdke> good luck with that
<jjesse> back sorry bout that
<jjesse> updated kquickguide and it succesffuly built for me
<jjesse> don't know what to do w/ it now :(
<mdke> jjesse, 
<mdke> around?
<jjesse> yup
<mdke> your last email to the list doesn't make sense
<mdke> what is the question?
<jjesse> besides making the changes  for adept in the kquickguide anything else need to get finished for kubuntu for doc string freeze day?
<jjesse> adept being the new package management that will replace kynaptic
<mdke> aha
<mdke> basically, whatever document you can get ready to be released
<mdke> on the kde side, what documents are finished?
<jjesse> that is really it jscgotanco (spelling?) and i talked this morning, looking to see what else we talked about
<jjesse> but i think right now kquickguide is it
<mdke> about kubuntu?
<Burgundavia> mdke, in terms of the quicktour and the doc freeze, the wordage is quite small. And the screenshots have to wait until Art Freeze at the end of the month
<jjesse> yeah about kunbutnu
<jjesse> man i'm having typing problems today
<mdke> Burgundavia, well the screenshots won't get translated anyway
<Burgundavia> mdke, look odd if a serbian doc has english screenshots
<mdke> Burgundavia, yep, but what can you do
<Burgundavia> ya
<mdke> what state is the doc in now?
<Burgundavia> one major push to get it done
<Burgundavia> write the evo section, and then think hard about each section, possibly rearrange
<mdke> got any time today?
<Burgundavia> yes, right now
<mdke> ok then I won't take up your time talking :D
<Burgundavia> right
<mdke> i'm gonna keep testing these pot's
<Burgundavia> ok
<Burgundavia> can you gen some pots of the quicktour
<Burgundavia> ?
<mdke> we can try
<Burgundavia> it is strict XHTML, so it should work
<mdke> also, we need to add it to the build stuff so that it get's built with gnome/$ make all
<Burgundavia> ah
<Burgundavia> I have no idea how to do that
<mdke> i think i can do it
<mdke> what files are needed
<Burgundavia> for the pot?
<mdke> the css is in the html itself right?
<Burgundavia> just quicktour.html
<mdke> ok and the screenshots?
<Burgundavia> ya, embedded css
<Burgundavia> don't have any yet
<Burgundavia> also need the logo
<mdke> where will they be?
<Burgundavia> in the same folder
<mdke> ok that is easy
<mdke> everything in the same level
<Burgundavia> the doc is meant to exist out of our controlled environment and thus I put all the stuff in one folder
<mdke> that looks ok
<mdke> i will edit the Makefile
<mdke> done
* Burgundavia laughs
<Burgundavia> guy asks on the local lug list about linux and laptops
<Burgundavia> and both robitaille and myself repsond with LaptopTestingTeam
<Burgundavia> within 5 minutes of the mail hitting the list
<mdke> you shouldn't be reading email!
* mdke slaps
<Burgundavia> ouch
<Burgundavia> alright, alright, going back to work
<mdke> Burgundavia, html2po seems to work fine
<mdke> no idea how it got on my system, but it seem to do the trick
<mdke> the opposite (po2html) isn't on my system :(
<Burgundavia> mdke, if I add more images to the quicktour, will they get built?
<mdke> yeah it is set to copy the whole directory to build/
<Burgundavia> ok
<mdke> lemme run the build on the preview server
* Burgundavia beats his head against htmldoc
<Burgundavia> ok, that looks like crap
<mdke> http://doc.ubuntu.com/gnome/quicktour/
<Burgundavia> nice
<Burgundavia> how often is that preview generated?
<mdke> daily
<mdke> Burgundavia, can I suggest a colon instead of ... after Ubuntu in the AboutUbuntu section of the quicktour?
<Burgundavia> sure
<mdke> --> bed
<mdke> night all
<Burgundavia> mdke, night
<judax> saw on the list that kquickguide was not validating, fixed it
<Burgundavia> judax, thanks
<judax> np
* rob^ awakens
<Burgundavia> salut rob^ 
<rob^> hi Burgundavia 
<rob^> some dhead started cutting tiles at 6:30am this morning
<Burgundavia> ouch
<rob^> wait until I finish nightshift at 6:30 on the next sunday.. 
<rob^> gonna get out the mower
<Burgundavia> rofl
<rob^> and the wippersniper
<rob^> umm snipper
<mpt> sniper
<Burgundavia> mpt, http://doc.ubuntu.com/gnome/quicktour/quicktour.html
<mpt> Burgundavia: You want copyediting?
<Burgundavia> mpt, yes
<mpt> that does look pretty elegant, indeed
<mpt> Ubuntu is an operating system that doesn't announce itself, so for the first sentence try "The Ubuntu team" or something like that
<Burgundavia> "The Ubuntu team is proud to announce our 5.10 release, named Breezy Badger. Read on to find out about what makes Ubuntu  great, plus see the latest new features in 5.10."
<mpt> yes
<mpt> It's not exactly the most exciting paragraph in the world, but never mind that for now :-)
<mpt> "is releases" -> "is released"
<Burgundavia> oops, Madpilot pointed that out eariler but I forgot about it
<mpt> The phrase "with support for eighteen months" is missing at least one word. With free support from Canonical? That can't be right. Perhaps "with security updates provided for eighteen months after each release"?
<mpt> "Ubuntu: It's great" --> ""
<Burgundavia> just kill that sentence?
<mpt> "3 menus" --> "three menus"
<Burgundavia> I wasn't to keen on it myself
<mpt> yes, kill it unless there's something interesting to put there
<Burgundavia> my only major concern right now is that we mix what is good about Ubuntu with what is good in Breezy
<mpt> Well, how much of your target audience is people currently using 5.04 or 4.10, how much is people currently using some other Free OS, and how much is people currently using Windows/Mac OS?
<Burgundavia> that is hard
<mpt> "System allows you to" --> "And System lets you"
<mpt> What's the purpose of this document?
<mpt> Is it marketing?
<Burgundavia> yes
<mpt> So is it going to go on ubuntu.com?
<Burgundavia> no idea
<Burgundavia> I would like it to
<Burgundavia> another likely target is the fridge
<Burgundavia> I am also trying to make a pdf out of it
#ubuntu-doc 2005-09-14
<mpt> http://www.apple.com/macosx/ <-- excellent writing
<mpt> http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/sp2/topten.mspx <-- good writing
<Burgundavia> how does mine compare with those efforts?
<mpt> a little behind the Windows one
<mpt> but it's easily improvable
<mpt> Ok, you have "Built on the power of GNOME"
<Burgundavia> yes
<mpt> That isn't "Built On the Power of GNOME", because that would look silly, right? :-)
<mpt> So the other headings should be consistent
<Burgundavia> ya
<Burgundavia> will do
<mpt> Find out the number of applications available in gnome-app-install that aren't installed by default, and mention that in the "Easy Software Installation" section
<Burgundavia> a huge number, thousands
<Burgundavia> but in g-a-i, several hundred
<Burgundavia> "Browse through and install from the hundreds of programs in the Ubuntu software catalogue, for no cost."
<mpt> the sentence "And it's all absolutely free." should be in there somewhere, perhaps :-)
<mpt> "no cost" is a bit of a negative way of putting it
<Burgundavia> "Add a new game, text editor or program with a single click. Browse through and install from the hundreds of programs in the Ubuntu software catalogue. And it's all absolutely free."
<mpt> much better
<mpt> Not all of the sections need screenshots
<mpt> For example, Gaim isn't the prettiest app in the world
<Burgundavia> no
<mpt> So instead you might have its icon, hugging the icons for AIM, YM, ICQ, MSN, and the others in some way
<Burgundavia> what else should I put in it's place?
<Burgundavia> hmm
<Burgundavia> might those logos present a copyright issue?
<Burgundavia> also, I cannot draw
<mpt> hum, trademark, perhaps
<Burgundavia> yes
<mpt> "View documents with Evince" is very uninteresting, unless you can come up with some stats for how much faster it is than Adobe Reader
<Burgundavia> ok
<Burgundavia> "View documents in a snap with Evince"
<mpt> or "PDFs just got faster"
<Burgundavia> hmm
<Burgundavia> evince only appears once, in the about box
<Burgundavia> it is a true non-app-app. It doesn't even have a preferences dialog
<mpt> What's the deadline for this document?
<mpt> Do PostScript files open in Evince too? (I don't have Breezy here at work)
<Burgundavia> mpt, sort of today-ish, but I am going to push our string freeze
<Burgundavia> and yes, PS's do as wel
<Burgundavia> what about "Viewing PDF's just got faster"
<mpt> It's a shame that only OO.o prints to PDFs, everything else to PS
<Burgundavia> cups-pdf should probably be installed by default
<mpt> Now that I've gone through the whole thing, you probably want separate pages for each of the major sections
<Burgundavia> mpt, shall we raise that at UBZ (assuming I am there)?
<mpt> I'm not sure what I could contribute to that, except to say "yes, it should be"
<Burgundavia> that is sometimes all that is needed
<Burgundavia> mpt, I have to run. If you have any other changes, simply PM me
<mpt> ok
<Burgundavia> bloody work
<rob^> hmm, the faq guide is looking pretty good in yelp now :)
<rob^> and omg it doesn't crash!
<jbailey> =)
<rob^> yay I am so tired now!
<jbailey> rob^: That's with the css update?
<rob^> jbailey, yes
<rob^> 4171
<jbailey> 4171?
<robotgeek> hi all
<robotgeek> can i add breezy stuff to the wiki? that's the only OS I am running
<robotgeek> hi, can i try writing some documentation for multisync?
<jsgotangco> hey
<jsgotangco> there is none?
<robotgeek> jsgotangco: hi
<jsgotangco> hi
<jsgotangco> robotgeek, feel free to do so if there is none at the moment
<robotgeek> i looked at the docteam projects, i did not see any.
<robotgeek> neither on the wiki
<jsgotangco> because its application-specific
<jsgotangco> upstream may have documentation for that
<jsgotangco> mdke, ping?
<robotgeek> cool, i guess i will look it up there then. if not i'll write it up and then contact you guys. 
<jsgotangco> robotgeek, sure, its best to contribute to multisync itself as well
<robotgeek> jsgotangco: as in?
<robotgeek> contribute to multisync documentation directly?
<jsgotangco> yes why not?
<jsgotangco> all distributions will benefit from it for sure
<jsgotangco> not just ubuntu
<robotgeek> sure, hadn't thought abt it, it definetly needs some amt of documenting!
<robotgeek> cool, will do that, and probably keep the ubuntu specific things for ubuntu
<jsgotangco> yeah
<jsgotangco> i was the one who was supposed to do testing in multisync but i just have too many things in my hands atm
<jsgotangco> i did the pda spec
<robotgeek> oh, it has a spec too?
<jsgotangco> let me find that
<jsgotangco> it should be revived for Breezy +1
<jsgotangco> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/PDASupport
<robotgeek> no harm in getting it ready
<jsgotangco> how mature is multisync to be promotedto main?
<robotgeek> hmmm..
<robotgeek> except for lack of documentation, everything else worked out of the box
<jsgotangco> what device areyou using
<jsgotangco> sycn to evo2?
<robotgeek> i am using a sony ericsson t 637
<robotgeek> yeah, sync to evo2
<jsgotangco> hmmm i'll probably revive this for next release then
<jsgotangco> if it works out of the box, that's a good sign
<robotgeek> just lack of documentation left me searching left and right
<robotgeek> but once i figured out what to do, it works fine
<robotgeek> anyways, i'll be here after an hour or so, need to cook :)
<jsgotangco> hmmm for some reason make faqi386 takes forever
<robotgeek> hi, is there a single package i can install for the doc tools?
<robotgeek> er, docbook-tools
<jsgotangco> brb
<Madpilot> Burgundavia: ping
<Burgundavia> Madpilot, pong
<robotgeek> hi all
<Madpilot> hi robotgeek
<robotgeek> working on a wiki article, i dunno if i am stepping on any toes!
<Madpilot> the wiki is pretty much open territory, AFAIK
<Madpilot> what're you working on?
<robotgeek> an article on MultiSync howto
<Madpilot> what's multisync?
<robotgeek> still working on it, far from complete
<robotgeek> multisync is a program to sync phones
<robotgeek> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MultisyncHowto
<robotgeek> how do i add screenshots?
<Madpilot> cool. my cel phone is very old tech, no PC connection at all!
<Madpilot> screenshots - just a sec, I'll have a look thru the help stuff for you. 
<robotgeek> mine uses bluetooth
<Madpilot> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/HelpOnLinking <-- images are in the first part of this page
<robotgeek> i even went thru this link. the only problem with a wiki is that sometimes, i overlook stuff!
<Madpilot> the editing help sections really aren't well laid out...
<robotgeek> and i just link to someplace else? no upload and stuff?
<Madpilot> no, you upload and then link it to the page you want it to appear on
<robotgeek> okay, so someplace like imageshack is fine?
<Burgundavia> robotgeek, no, you upload to the wiki
<Madpilot> the ubuntu wiki can host it's own pictures
<Madpilot> hi Burgundavia - missed your pong at the top there
<robotgeek> where's the upload button?
<robotgeek> :)
<Madpilot> see the dropdown menu near the top of the page?
<Madpilot> one of those is "Attachments" which is actually the upload function...
<robotgeek> okay, got it..it's hidden away :)
<Madpilot> yeah
<robotgeek> thanks!
<Madpilot> I was beating my head against that too...
<BeerDump> hmmm
<Burgundavia> beerdump?
<Madpilot> jgotangco: just back from the pub? ;)
<jgotangco> heh
<jgotangco> we're now frozen =)
<jgotangco> with the exception of Quick Tour
<Madpilot> cool
<Madpilot> now we can start arguing about breezy+1 docs! ;)
<jgotangco> no
<jgotangco> we argue first about translation and the CSS
<Madpilot> ah, OK.
<Madpilot> so the CSS doesn't count as part of the frozen docs?
<jgotangco> we're only on string freeze
<jgotangco> yes
<jgotangco> because we have to give way for translators
<Madpilot> that's seperation of presentation & content at work
<jgotangco> yes
<jgotangco> its all good
<Madpilot> so is the plan to thrash QuickTour, AboutUbuntu and the FAQ into one coherent visual whole before Breezy release?
<jgotangco> should be
<Burgundavia> sabdfl was asking about using some of the ubuntu css
<jgotangco> we still have a month
<jgotangco> sure
<jgotangco> the hacked plone css?
<Madpilot> Burgundavia: the ubuntu.com site css?
<Burgundavia> Madpilot, yes
* Madpilot wanders off to have a look at the site CSS...
<Madpilot> OK, that's both amusing and not good....
<Madpilot> www.ubuntu.com fails W3C Validator checks...
<Madpilot> repeated abuse of a poor "id" tag, and some HTML->XHTML errors...
<Madpilot> and about a dozen CSS files, including one Opera-specific one (for presentation, which only Opera does so far...)
<jsgotangco> oh! we have a meeting later!
<Madpilot> when is later?
<Madpilot> nevermind, just found the Calendar wiki page again
<Madpilot> 1400Z is 0700 local, so I'm unlikely to be present... not a morning person
<jsgotangco> hmm im beginning to like this css thing
<Madpilot> CSS is cool - what're you working on?
<robotgeek> question: how comprehensive should an article on the wiki be? what can i assume?
<robotgeek> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MultisyncHowto
<jsgotangco> im found it
<jsgotangco> im looking at it atm
<jsgotangco> Madpilot, just playing aroud with the css in svn
<Madpilot> robotgeek: your screenshots should probably use the default Ubuntu themes
<robotgeek> hmm, had forgotten about that...i use openbox
<Madpilot> robotgeek: can you reboot into Gnome just for the screenshots?
<robotgeek> can do
<jsgotangco> yes
<jsgotangco> use Human
<robotgeek> okay, but mainly...is it fair to assume that bluetooth works, or should i write up a wiki on that too. most of my knowledge on that comes from the forums thread
<Madpilot> there don't seem to be any Bluetooth howtos on the wiki yet, robotgeek
<robotgeek> there aren't any, so i might as well right one up
<robotgeek> i am just going to include what i did to get it working, some one else can add some more info later
<mdke> morning
<Madpilot> hi mdke
<mdke> how are things?
<Madpilot> robotgeek: cool, whatever you start is more Bluetooth info than the wiki has now, anyway!
<robotgeek> :)
<robotgeek> back to work on it again, i guess
<robotgeek> gonna read a little slashdot on the way!
<jsgotangco> hey mdke 
<jsgotangco> mdke, i made one itsy bitsy edit after your pot but i generated it again
<jsgotangco> so we're now completely frozen
<mdke> ok
<mdke> the pots were just testing anyhow
<mdke> which pot did you regenerate?
<jsgotangco> about-ubuntu
<mdke> ok
<jsgotangco> are we going to feed the pots to rosetta?
<mdke> later today I hope
* jsgotangco has no idea on this regard
<jsgotangco> did you get your dsl already?
<mdke> yeah it came early
<jsgotangco> nice
<jsgotangco> we can now worry about the css
<mdke> do we have a list of the packages we need to put in rosetta?
<jsgotangco> jbailey packaged not i
<Burgundavia> hmm
<mdke> sorry
<Burgundavia> well printing the quicktour sort of worked
<mdke> s/packages/documents
<Burgundavia> the background colour died, and images look like shit
<Madpilot> Burgundavia: background colour usually isn't printed w/ HTML
<jsgotangco> for some reason, the makefile for about-ubuntu doesn't get the image at all
<Burgundavia> the images also get divided between pages
<Burgundavia> but the coloured header css came through
<jsgotangco> hi enrico
<mdke> heh
<mdke> mdz has done a lot of work on that announcement, we can use it for releasenotes
<jsgotangco> yes
<mdke> Burgundavia, maybe you can use it for the quicktour too?
<robitaille> the announcement seems a lot more technical than the quicktour
<mdke> yeah
<robitaille> but I think they wanted it technical
<Burgundavia> the release notes for the preview are aimed at a more techinical audience
<Burgundavia> I expect the actual release to be slightly less technical
<Burgundavia> mdke, work on waht?
<jsgotangco> i'll add mdz's notes on the releasenotes wiki jbailey did
<mdke> good idea
<Burgundavia> mdke, incorporating the stuff from the release notes into the quicktour? I already parsed through it to see if there was anything we needed to
<Burgundavia> add
<mdke> Burgundavia, i meant from mdz's preview announcement, but as robitaille says, it might be a bit technical
<mdke> sounds like jjesse wants to change kquickguide
<jsgotangco> another purpose of relesae notes is to add known bugs
<jsgotangco> mdke, i talked to Riddell about it, he's ok with it
<jsgotangco> kubuntu rarely gets translated he says
<mdke> i think that translators will appear
<jsgotangco> hrmmm
<jsgotangco> i feel so bad about leaving the kubuntu quick guide
<jsgotangco> can't blame sean either if he didn't feel like finishing kde docs
<mdke> nope
<mdke> although he kinda slid out without saying anything
<jsgotangco> hmmm riddell didn't say anything about adept
<Burgundavia> you really need someone who has used the latest kde to develop a marketing guide forf it
<mdke> isn't it worth freezing the kquickguide?
<mdke> i know the thing that needs updating is quite important, but still, it might be better than nothing?
<jsgotangco> yes
<Burgundavia> mdke, is there anything worth freezing?
<jsgotangco> about kubuntu is usable
<jsgotangco> edubuntu has no freeze
<mdke> Burgundavia, sure, about-ubuntu, faqguide
<mdke> how is the quicktour getting on?
<Burgundavia> mdke, I was talking about the kquicktour
<mdke> ah
<mdke> apparently the doc is finished except for the package manager
<jsgotangco> Burgundavia, are you going to wait for artwork freeze to get screenshots?
<Burgundavia> mdke, coming. Is there any way trigger an update on the preview?
<Burgundavia> jsgotangco, yes
<jsgotangco> ickkk
<jsgotangco> whyyy?
<mdke> Burgundavia, yes we can upload a new pot to rosetta
<jsgotangco> we're still using chocolate
<jsgotangco> err human
<Burgundavia> jsgotangco, are we changing icon theme? What about wallpaper?
<mdke> i hope there will be new wallpaper
<jsgotangco> you can ask volvoguy and AndyFitz
<Burgundavia> mdke, no, http://doc.ubuntu.com/gnome/quicktour/quicktour.html this page. Can i trigger a rebuild of it>
<jsgotangco> they're supposed to be responsible for that
<mdke> Burgundavia, i'll do it now
<Burgundavia> jsgotangco, jdub said they were thinking about it
<jsgotangco> ok
<jsgotangco> oh well rather
<enrico> jsgotangco: hi!
<mdke> ciao enrico 
<Burgundavia> they had not yet decided if they were going to switch to humilty icons (which I personally hate)
<enrico> hi all!
<Burgundavia> salut enrico 
<jsgotangco> how do you incorporate the pot?
<jsgotangco> transform it?
<mdke> what do you mean incorporate?
<jsgotangco> wrong word
<jsgotangco> how do make the pot file an xml again
<mdke> same command
<jsgotangco> ahhh
<mdke> --help
<jsgotangco> all those translated files need an omf for sure
<Burgundavia> mdke, can you trigger that rebuild again, I forgot to commit the changes
<mdke> we'll need to make separate packages
<mdke> Burgundavia, sure
<mdke> what's the latest revision?
<mdke> 1752?
<jsgotangco> yes
<mdke> ok building
<mdke> where does ubuntu-docs install our documents?
<Burgundavia> ugh, xscreensaver is butt ugly
<mdke> matt@kallisto:/usr/share/doc/ubuntu-docs/HTML?
<Burgundavia> mdke, you apply for sponsorship to UBZ?
<jsgotangco> im not in breezy
<mdke> Burgundavia, no
<mdke> is jbailey around?
<Burgundavia> mdke, why not?
<mdke> Burgundavia, i won't be able to get off work
<Burgundavia> ah
<ajmitch> that's a shame
<mdke> sadly
<Burgundavia> that sucks
<mdke> i'm only starting the job next week ;)
<Burgundavia> ah
* ajmitch thinks the doc team needs a good representation at UBZ :)
<mdke> Burgundavia, i imagine you will stick up for us?
<Burgundavia> I only just started the job, but I made my leave at the end of Oct. a condition of the job
<mdke> heh
<Burgundavia> mdke, I hope I get sponsorship
* ajmitch just said that he was taking the time off
<mdke> Burgundavia, i'm sure you will
<mdke> so our packaged docs seem to go here: 
<mdke> so our packaged docs seem to go here:  [08:50:51]   * ajmitch thinks the doc team needs a good representation at UBZ :)
<mdke> sorry
<mdke>  [08:51:02]  < mdke> Burgundavia, i imagine you will stick up for us?
<mdke> argh
<mdke> bad paste
<ajmitch> and I've already booked time off for LCA in january :)
* Burgundavia refuses to count his chickens
<mdke> so our packaged docs seem to go here: /usr/share/doc/ubuntu-docs/HTML/en/about-ubuntu/C
<jsgotangco> yes
<ajmitch> Burgundavia: I have to book in well ahead
<mdke> isn't it a bit odd to have both en and C which specify language?
<Burgundavia> wow, the bloody touchpad works again
<ajmitch> Burgundavia: daniels reverted the driver
<Burgundavia> ajmitch, ya, saw the change
<jsgotangco> mdke, i don't think it helps at all with html, only xml docs
<jsgotangco> but our make does output with C so
<mdke> jsgotangco, yeah, C is fine, but why both?
<Burgundavia> hmm, nothing installed by default
<mdke> seems an unnecessary way to lengthen the address
<Burgundavia> the faqguide didn't make preivew?
<mdke> Burgundavia, it's there
<mdke> just not in yelp
<mdke> matt@kallisto:/usr/share/doc/ubuntu-docs/HTML/en$ ls
<mdke> about-ubuntu  faqamd64  faqppc  quicktour
<mdke> default.css   faqi386   images  release-notes
<jsgotangco> mdke, we can edit the script
<jsgotangco> (but the script editors are always out)
<mdke> jsgotangco, well we need to sort it out quick because the firefox home page will be based on that address
<jsgotangco> mmmmm
<jsgotangco> good point
<mdke> what time zone is jbailey in?
<jsgotangco> -4
<Burgundavia> mdke, I just installed preview and /usr/share/doc has no ubuntu-doc in it
<mdke> Burgundavia, ah i have it on my breezy here
<Burgundavia> mdke, fresh install?
<mdke> Burgundavia, yes, from colony 2
<mdke> ubuntu-docs with an "s"?
<Burgundavia> just testing hibernate, just a sec
<ajmitch> fyi I have /usr/share/doc/ubuntu-docs
<robitaille> I don't have /usr/share/doc/ubuntu-doc nor /usr/share/doc/ubuntu-docs either on my fresh install of preview
<mdke> hmm
<Burgundavia> colony 4 was intalled the quickguide
<Burgundavia> I think they yanked that but forgot to readd our doc
<jsgotangco> Burgundavia, that was a bug
<Burgundavia> jsgotangco, yes
<ajmitch> I don't see any package depending on the quick guide
<jsgotangco> it made the cd installable
<jsgotangco> ajmitch, it was fixed
<mdke> yah it's fixed
<ajmitch> jsgotangco: ok..
<ajmitch> I'll do a preview install later tonight
<jsgotangco> quickguide back then was a dependency of ubuntu-desktop
<Burgundavia> holy shit a lot of people are subbed to the LaptopTestingTeam page
<mdke> Burgundavia, i've rebuilt the preview docs
<jsgotangco> yes
<jsgotangco> i did .*
<Burgundavia> mdke, hmm
<mdke> did it work?
<Burgundavia> ok, this is cool --> http://www.burtonini.com/blog/computers/simple-things-2005-09-09-08-45
* Burgundavia notes that hmm usually indicates a non-working state
<Burgundavia> do we have a meeting this morning?
<mdke> later
<jsgotangco> yes
<Burgundavia> arghh..
<mdke> i can't make it though
<Burgundavia> alright then, I need to crash
<ajmitch> night Burgundavia 
<Madpilot> Burgundavia: another 0700-our-time-zone one :)
<mdke> Burgundavia, did the rebuild work?
<Burgundavia> mdke, didn't seem to
<jsgotangco> are you rebuilding on doc.ubuntu.com?
<mdke> yes
<mdke> something wrong with the Makefile maybe
<mdke> maybe jeffsch can sort it out
<jsgotangco> mdke, are we feeding to rosetta?
<mdke> when we have a complete list of documents that need to go, I'll build pots for them and upload
<jsgotangco> ok
<jsgotangco> so the plan is that
<mdke> or rather, give them to jordi to upload
<jsgotangco> we'll have translators do it with rosetta?
<mdke> yeah
<mdke> are there any disadvantages of that?
<jsgotangco> https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/breezy/+translations
<jsgotangco> no
<jsgotangco> let's have it available on that link
<mdke> we can't choose where to have it available
<mdke> but it will be there
<mdke> it will be here:
<mdke> https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/breezy/+sources/ubuntu-docs
<mdke> (i think)
<jsgotangco> not bad
<mdke> it will be the same as with hoary
<jsgotangco> ok so that means we'll be able to clean up our svn later
<mdke> if you make sure that you get a list of frozen documents at the meeting, I'll do it tonight when i get home
<jsgotangco> sure
<jsgotangco> let me build all docs now
<mdke> use the preview server!
<jsgotangco> no!
<mdke> it's working, just not the quicktour
<mdke> why?!
<jsgotangco> i like my builds
<mdke> ok
<jsgotangco> they're the same right?
<mdke> yes
<jsgotangco> i changed the css for about ubuntu
<mdke> :)
<jsgotangco> can you give me access soon?
<jsgotangco> i want to change that frontpage
<mdke> i can give you access now
<jsgotangco> i can't change it now
<jsgotangco> heh
<mdke> the server area is owned by the user "ubuntu-docs" so I'll just give you the password for that user and you can log in and change it directly
<jsgotangco> something is wrong with that makefile
<jsgotangco> it didn't pull th elogo
<mdke> alternatively, change the frontpage and send it to me and I'll upload
<jsgotangco> okay
<mdke> PM
<Madpilot> good night all, need to crash. I'll try and make the meeting at 1400Z, but no promises
<jsgotangco> okay
<jsgotangco> if you're not there, we'll make sure your vote doesn't count
<jsgotangco> heh
<jsgotangco> joke
<Madpilot> 1400Z = 0700PDT, it's currently 0120PDT
<jsgotangco> bahh
<mdke> night Madpilot 
<Madpilot> anyway, see you all later
<jsgotangco> i slept at 2:30am and woke up at 7
<mdke> rebooting
<jsgotangco> mdke, how updated is the doc.ubuntu.com builds?
<mdke> i did gnome/ ten minutes ago
<mdke> if you want to do them again
<mdke> as ubuntu-docs, go to ~
<jsgotangco> ahh so its manually triggered?
<mdke> then run ./svn_up
<mdke> and ./copy_blah
<mdke> nope it is run every day automatically
<mdke> but corey asked me to do it again now so I did
<jsgotangco> ahhh the kde docs are already local now
<jsgotangco> before they pointed to sean
<mdke> yeah it's all there
<mdke> although if you go to doc.ubuntu.com/kde, you get an annoying page which points you to sean's server
<jsgotangco> hmm
<jsgotangco> where the heck are our docs
<jsgotangco> in breezy
<jsgotangco> it seems not installed in preview
<mdke> jeez you're like an echo
<jsgotangco> it was somewhere before
<mdke> it's fixed now though
<jsgotangco> hrmm
<mdke> i bugged Kamion and he added it to a seed
<jsgotangco> oh
<jsgotangco> ahh
<jsgotangco> i remember
<jsgotangco> he demoted it to universe because of the breakage
<jsgotangco> that package badly needs updating on the info
<mdke> by the way
<mdke> another thing you _must_ remember to do at the meeting
<jsgotangco> mm?
<mdke> is to ask jbailey about the weird address for the docs
<jsgotangco> the /usr/share/doc/bla/blah/blah/C/index.html?
<jsgotangco> its the make file
<mdke> /usr/share/doc/ubuntu-docs/HTML/en/about-ubuntu/C
<jsgotangco> /usr/share/doc is natural
<mdke> I think the fact that there is /en/ and /C/ will cause problems about where the translations will go
<jsgotangco> the makefile should be fixed
<jsgotangco> thats one thing i noticed when i did a scrollkeeper register 2 days ago
<jsgotangco> the OMF file wouldn't matter really but
<jsgotangco> it doesn't really look good
<mdke> i think we should get rid of /en/ and keep /C/
<jsgotangco> i try not looking at the make atm
<jsgotangco> scrollkeeper and docbook are very new to jbailey
<mdke> ok but can you raise it at the meeting?
<jsgotangco> sure
<mdke> also perhaps announce the meeting on the list?
<jsgotangco> ok
<mdke> it's late notice... but still
<mdke> might help
<jsgotangco> i'll send one now with my brand new ubuntu.com email *bling*
<mdke> ah
<mdke> gimme
<jsgotangco> yours should run now
<mdke> what is my address?
<jsgotangco> did you sign the CoC on lp?
<mdke> yes
<jsgotangco> what's your username
<mdke> please don't let it by my launchpad username
<jsgotangco> ah let me check
<mdke> by/be
<jsgotangco> mdke?
<jsgotangco> haha
<jsgotangco> oh my 
<mdke> this is me: https://launchpad.net/people/gulliver666
<jsgotangco> guliver666@ubuntu.com
<jsgotangco> great
<jsgotangco> let me try that
<mdke> ok so if I change my LP username, will it change that email redirect?
<jsgotangco> no idea
<jsgotangco> can you try looking into your default lp email if something came in
<jsgotangco> ah i got a failure
<jsgotangco> goodie
<jsgotangco> i think its best you ask elmo
<mdke> hmm
<mdke> i'm sure he has more important things to worry about
<mdke> how did you set yours up?
<jsgotangco> oh he emailed me about it
<jsgotangco> robitaille has his ready as well
<jsgotangco> its just a forwarder but pretty nifty
<mdke> well if I wasn't emailed about it, I guess that means it wasn't set up right?
<jsgotangco> no he emailed me because i haven't signed the CoC on lp
<mdke> ah
<mdke> what is your address?
<jsgotangco> jgotangco@ubuntu.com
<mdke> confusing
<jsgotangco> ok going to send email about the meeting later
<mdke> great
<jsgotangco> why do?
<jsgotangco> why so?
<mdke> no js
<jsgotangco> ahh
<jsgotangco> well
<jsgotangco> hrmmm
<jsgotangco> let me edit the agenda first
<jsgotangco> it'll be easy
<jsgotangco> (just about the freeze, css and the location)
<jsgotangco> (as well as the pots)
<mdke> great
<mdke> ok fortunately it is very easy to change username
<jsgotangco> hmm
<jsgotangco> is quicktour frozen?
<jsgotangco> (string-wise that is)
<mdke> not to my knowledge
<jsgotangco> grrr
<mdke> haha
<mdke> did you see silbs' bug just now?
<mdke> 15013
<jsgotangco> hmm
<jsgotangco> lemme check
<jsgotangco> heh
<jsgotangco> hmm
<jsgotangco> well yes
<jsgotangco> that's the one we're talking about later right
<jsgotangco> let me answer this bug
<jsgotangco> wonder where silbs is
<mdke> also 15014
<mdke> i've replied to that one
<jsgotangco> gahhhh silbs
<jsgotangco> hmm i see carlos
<jsgotangco> let's grab him
<mdke> why?
<jsgotangco> just want to ask
<mdke> i spent ages bugging them yesterday
<mdke> no need to do it again
<jsgotangco> sorry
<jsgotangco> hm
<mdke> np
<mdke> getting them in rosetta won't be a problem
<mdke> don't worry about it
<mdke> i've done another cheeky edit to aboutubuntu
<mdke> after silbs' bug 15014
<jsgotangco> the link?
<jsgotangco> ok
<jsgotangco> better now than in the coming days
<mdke> i added the link to participate
<mdke> we'll regenerate the pots just before uploading to rosetta anyhow so it should be fine
<jsgotangco> yes
<mdke> jsgotangco, did you manage to test your ddclient package?
<jsgotangco> you added it in global ent?
<mdke> yes
<jsgotangco> i did
<jsgotangco> it segfault this 2am
<mdke> works?
<mdke> ah damn
<jsgotangco> i will try again later
<mdke> ;)
<mdke> the debian maintainer seems to be dead
<jsgotangco> thank the saviour that i am idle lately
<jsgotangco> heh
<ajmitch> :)
* ajmitch is as busy as ever at work
<mdke> i may have to install ddclient the old fashioned way
<jsgotangco> hey
<mdke> i really need it
<jsgotangco> i like my about ubuntu style
<ajmitch> mdke: ddclient is universe?
<jsgotangco> what's wrong with it
<jsgotangco> silbs find it too long?
<mdke> ajmitch, yes but the version is very old
<mdke> ajmitch, i need a newer one to work with dnspark.com
<ajmitch> mdke: no newer version in debian?
<mdke> and the debian maintainer hasn't updated it
* ajmitch can probably update it for you if there's a need
<mdke> for like a year
<mdke> ajmitch, if you could, you would be my favourite person
<jsgotangco> not me anymore???
<mdke> joint equal favourite person
<ajmitch> mdke: ok, website url?
<mdke> ajmitch, the debian bug is http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=279542
<ajmitch> thanks
<jsgotangco> ok i leave it to mr. gnu
<mdke> ajmitch, website is http://ddclient.sf.net i think
<ajmitch> debian Big Maintainer Lock
<jsgotangco> yay
<mdke> what is that?
<mdke> jsgotangco, re: the length of about ubuntu, I don't think we can do a lot about it, especially since the document is not only intended as the firefox homepage
<mdke> what is Breezy +1 called?
<jsgotangco> hey i only made it nice to read before it was terribly un friendly
<mdke> i don't think it's too long dude
<ajmitch> I've heard the name 'dapper' bounced about a bit
<ajmitch> seems to hardly be a secret now :)
<mdke> yeah i heard that
<mdke> what animal?
<ajmitch> no idea
<mdke> hmm
<mdke> deer?
<mdke> dinosaur?
<jsgotangco> hhmmm
<mdke> dog?
<mdke> donut
<jsgotangco> for some reason OOo 2 makes really terrible PDFs when there are pngs and transparency involved
<ajmitch> mdke: built a package for you to test
<mdke> wow
<mdke> ajmitch, i'll get to it later on, i should go now
<mdke> ajmitch, email?
<mdke> i'm matthew.east@breathe.com
<ajmitch> http://ajmitch.dyndns.win.co.nz/debuild/ubuntu/tmp/ddclient_3.6.6-1_all.deb
<ajmitch> ok, email if you want
<mdke> that's fine I'll download it now and test later
<ajmitch> ok
<mdke> thanks VERY much
* ajmitch is getting too fast at modifying packages with this MOTU work :)
<mdke> heh
<mdke> is that an ubuntu package or debian?
<ajmitch> sigh
* ajmitch is not going to UBZ
<ajmitch> it's an ubuntu versioned package
<ajmitch> but would run fine on debian
<mdke> ok will try!
<mdke> thanks
<jsgotangco> ajmitch, i didn't get sponsored heh
<ajmitch> jsgotangco: ah well
<ajmitch> I guess we'll just have to swim over :)
<jsgotangco> you too?
<ajmitch> yeah
<jsgotangco> we can do UDU 2
<ajmitch> I got the email from claire
<ajmitch> it's a shame you're not going
<ajmitch> since the doc team will be a bit thin on the ground
<jsgotangco> ahh no regrets
<jsgotangco> we have nice laptops
<ajmitch> yeah, I've got a laptop :)
<ajmitch> & it's faster than my old one :)
<jsgotangco> heh
<jsgotangco> i was looking at the mail before it opened
<jsgotangco> i was suspicious because it started with
<jsgotangco> "i hope you are enjoying the laptop..."
<ajmitch> hehe..
<ajmitch> mine was titled 'UBZ'
<ajmitch> nothing about a laptop
<mdke> well we should email claire to ask that they take into account the fact that the docteam should have some representation
<mdke> because if corey doesn't get sponsored either... we're in trouble
<ajmitch> yeah
<ajmitch> the MOTU team  is represented by canonical employees now
<mdke> i can email if you like, since I didn't ask for sponsorship
<jsgotangco> nahh its ok
<jsgotangco> claire isn't into the technical things
<jsgotangco> its best to tell mdz
<mdke> ok
<jsgotangco> ajmitch, is dholbach already employed?
<ajmitch> jsgotangco: I think so
<mdke> --> gone again
<jsgotangco> ah right
<ajmitch> not sure if he's told people 
<jsgotangco> ogra too
<ajmitch> ogra has been employed for months
<GranMaestro> hi there, has anybody seen Matthew around this morning?
<jsgotangco> Matthew who
<jsgotangco> East?
<jsgotangco> Thomas?
<GranMaestro> yuo
<GranMaestro> mdke
<jsgotangco> just ping him he's online
<ajmitch> he left < 10 minutes ago
<GranMaestro> auch
<GranMaestro> does he normally reply to email?
<jsgotangco> sure
<GranMaestro> I sent him one a couple of days ago but no reaction
<jsgotangco> regarding what
<GranMaestro> firewire install and bood for a imac
<jsgotangco> (maybe i could help)
<GranMaestro> can you help?
<jsgotangco> oohhh
<jsgotangco> sorry
<GranMaestro> eheh
* jsgotangco too poor to own a mac
<GranMaestro> come on don't make me cry :D
<GranMaestro> jsgotangco: could you pls pass me a working email address for mdke?
<jsgotangco> matthew.east@breathe.com
<GranMaestro> I have used the following matthew.east.ubuntu@breathe.com
<jsgotangco> oh they're just the same
<GranMaestro> perhaps that's the problem
<jsgotangco> he uses both
<GranMaestro> will try yours, perhaps it got lost in spam mail
<jsgotangco> ok guys see you later at the meeting im just going to the pub
<mdke> GranMaestro, i replied to your second one
<mdke> first one got lost in a lot of mail, sorry
<mdke> i'm afraid I can't help you though
<mdke> rob^, can you remember to comment on your wiki edits so that the people subscribed to the page can see what's going on?
<rob^> mdke, ok, I just made one small change
<mdke> heh
<rob^> it just conflicted, so I fixed it
<mdke> with docteam projects the diff is always too complicated to figure out what the change was
<mdke> because of those weird tables
<rob^> yeah, I just changed "Review" to "Finished" for the faq guide
<mdke> great
<mdke> would you mind glancing over the faqguide.pot to make sure that it's all in there?
<mdke> i was a bit confused about which files in generic/faqguide/C/ were used, and which weren't
<rob^> yeah, oh one thing, I was just reading the faq guide and noticed a mistake
<mdke> is it a big one?
<rob^> 2.5
<mdke> ?
<rob^> I just copied what corey wrote
<rob^> "When you see this popup, click Show me.."
<rob^> thats wrong, it says something else where you need to click
<mdke> you can fix it if you like
<rob^> can I still do that?
<mdke> we haven't uploaded the pot files to rosetta yet so yeah
<mdke> also, if you can get rid of the files in the directory that aren't used, that would be good
<rob^> ok, will do shortly
<mdke> thanks
<rob^> mdke, will it effect the .pot in anyway if I change the sections in the faq guide from "review" to "finished"?
<mdke> i'll be regererating the .pot anyhow
<mdke> go ahead
<rob^> ok thanks
<rob^> hmm, is it status="finished" or "complete"?
<rob^> hi jjesse 
<jjesse> morning rob^ 
<mdke> rob^, complete i think
<mdke> check DocteamWork
<rob^> yeah it is.. dang
<mdke> do a find/replace
<rob^> I am
<rob^> i just did it with finished
<rob^> :(
<mdke> careful not to replace every instance of "finished" in the guide ;)
<rob^> no, replacing "status="finished""
<mdke> :)
<rob^> umm with "complete" though
<mdke> heh
<mdke> status=complete
<rob^> mdke, I just sent the last few changes to the list with a list of files that need to be removed
<mdke> k
<rob^> can't do it myself :(
<sabdfl> hi all
<mdke> rob^, is the add/remove documents documented in the faq guide?
<mdke> how much work would it be to adapt the document if the menu entry was renamed and moved?
<rob^> its mentioned, but because it does not install all the packages we need I used synaptic instead
<mdke> ah
<rob^> not much at all
<mdke> sabdfl, so from our point of view you can probably go ahead and move/rename it
<rob^> hi sabdfl 
<sabdfl> hi guys
<mdke> sabdfl, but the sooner we know, the sooner we can make the changes
<sabdfl> ok, thanks very much
<rob^> mdke, for sure, I would prefer it
<rob^> removed that is
<mdke> rob^, they are thinking of putting it back in the applications menu and giving it a shorter name
<mdke> the idea is good IMO
<rob^> I think it is too, but I hate the layout of it
<rob^> its very messy
<rob^> they should break it up more like synaptic
<mdke> sabdfl, so can you give us the decision as soon as it is taken?
<sabdfl> mdke: yes, today, either way
<ajmitch> hi sabdfl 
<mdke> great
<sabdfl> hey ajmitch
<GranMaestro> mdke: great to see you online :-D
<GranMaestro> Have sent you a couple of mails in PM but got no reaction watsoever
<rob^> hey I was talking to the guys in #svn, apparently svn can do branches like bazzar can
<GranMaestro> sabdfl: are you still there?
<mdke> GranMaestro, i replied to your last email
<mdke> i didn't get any PM's
<mdke> rob^, i've made the same mistake as yesterday :/
<GranMaestro> mdke: thank you for replying I'll check straight away
<mdke> rob^, can we resolve in the same way
<rob^> haha.. ok, I'll email you my wcs
<mdke> ?
<rob^> yeah
<mdke> sorry
<rob^> its ok :)
<GranMaestro> mdke: btw your are difficult to catch those days
<mdke> GranMaestro, yep
<GranMaestro> mdke: no mail in the box :-(
<mdke> although to be fair, you've only ever sent me two emails, and I replied to the second one
<sabdfl> GranMaestro: yes
<mdke> GranMaestro, you are Pieterjan Lansbergen right?
<GranMaestro> mdke: I see, is that to my gmail account yup
<GranMaestro> sono io :-D
<mdke> GranMaestro, no to ath.cx
<mdke> at 10.51 BST today
<sabdfl> mdke, rob^: decision was to move Add/Remove Programs to the Applications menu, called "Add Applications"
<rob^> thanks sabdfl 
<GranMaestro> should be pj at pjl.ath.cx let me doublecheck
<mdke> cheers sabdfl 
<rob^> mdke, I'll make the required changes then email you my working copies
<GranMaestro> mdke: anyway do you think you can help with the FW issue?
<mdke> GranMaestro, fraid not, I know nothing about it
<GranMaestro> auch
<mdke> rob^, better to email now, I'm about to go to lunch
<GranMaestro> mdke: somebody must have the know how.. :-(
<mdke> GranMaestro, you should try the ubuntu support mailing lists
<GranMaestro> mdke: the Wiki was pointing to a solution and I thought you had direct experience
<rob^> hmm, someone reviewing must have killed it
<sabdfl> hey guys
<sabdfl> something else i'd like to discuss, should be easy changes
<rob^> yep
<mdke> GranMaestro, fraid not, I didn't write that wiki page
<sabdfl> the "About Ubuntu" page
<GranMaestro> mdke: sounds like YDL is the place where to look further as all the Ubuntu people do is starting the external linux from the internal one
<mdke> sabdfl, shoot
<sabdfl> currently, that's in ubuntu-artwork, right?
<jdub> yes
<mdke> although there is a bug open about that
<mdke> it should be moved to ubuntu-docs
<sabdfl> well, it's also the FF home page, right?
<mdke> as soon as we know the local address for it
<mdke> yes, see http://bugzilla.ubuntu.com/show_bug.cgi?id=3985
<sabdfl> who wants to own that doc? i'd like it to really look beautiful for Breezy
<sabdfl> it needs:
<sabdfl>  - the current Ubuntu CSS and look
<GranMaestro> mdke: not that it matters at this stage but your mail didn't arrive, could you pls check for future ref if you don't mind?
<rob^> mdke, the section on add/remove applications has been removed during the review, so no changed needed
<sabdfl>  - simpler text, more like the www.ubuntu.com initial paragraphs and commitment
<jdub> sabdfl: so are you unassigning this from me now?
<mdke> sabdfl, the doc is finished and frozen
<sabdfl>  - more pictures, perhaps some screenshots from the quickguide
<mdke> see also bugs 15013 and 15014 from silbs
<mpt> GranMaestro: hi
<sabdfl>   - no version-specific information
<sabdfl> mdke: can i see it?
<GranMaestro> mpt: hi there
<mdke> yeah
<jdub> sabdfl: firefox /usr/share/doc/ubuntu-docs/HTML/en/about-ubuntu/C/index.html
<mdke> yep
<mdke> although that is not the most recent version
<jdub> it could do with a lot of removals
<sabdfl> not found
<jdub> got ubuntu-docs installed?
<sabdfl> is it the same as file:///usr/share/ubuntu-artwork/home/index.html
<mpt> GranMaestro: I don't know anything about installing Firewire, sorry
<jdub> no
<mpt> GranMaestro: I haven't seen your message, but I have ~180 unread, so probably I just haven't got to it yet
<GranMaestro> somebody has gotta know something about it.. :-D
<mdke> sabdfl, no you have to install ubuntu-docs
<sabdfl> jdub: how did "About Ubuntu" get dropped from the System menu?
<jdub> similarish content, similar old style
<rob^> GranMaestro, yes I do
<sabdfl> mdke: will that be installed by default? a dependency of ubuntu-desktop?
<mdke> that is fixed already yeah
<GranMaestro> mpt: I wrote to mdke, no you :-)
<sabdfl> mdke: what is fixed already?
<jdub> sabdfl: perhaps the file location check has been changed
<mdke> the dependency is fixed already
<mdke> --> food
<rob^> GranMaestro, try this for a start: http://doc.ubuntu.com/gnome/faqi386/C/ch07.html#id3245330
<rob^> yeah, its a kludge but what else can you do?
<sabdfl> jdub: about ubuntu, please?
<jdub> sabdfl: hmm?
<GranMaestro> Well, just a general question to everybody reading. Who do you think is knowleadgeable about FireWire on Ubuntu-PPC and can be contacted?
<sabdfl> jdub: answer my question
<jdub> sabdfl: i did
<GranMaestro> rob^: thks :-D
<jdub> 22:24 < jdub> sabdfl: perhaps the file location check has been changed
<jdub> i'm checking with seb atm
<rob^> GranMaestro, np, its a start
<sabdfl> mdke: i'm up to date, and ubuntu-docs is not installed
<GranMaestro> rob^: I am afraid it doesn't apply to me however, tks anyway
<rob^> GranMaestro, yeah, like I said thats about all I know
<rob^> you need at least the ieee1394
<rob^>  and ohci1394 kernel modules
<rob^> GranMaestro, ask in #ubuntu
<GranMaestro> One thing still puzzles me: Somebody has gotta know, how, but Who??
<GranMaestro> rob^: I'll
<rob^> its not really a discussion for here
<GranMaestro> I agree just started here as I was chasing mdke
<rob^> ok
<mdke> sabdfl, pendingupload
<mdke> kamion fixed it this morning
<mdke> latest version of the doc is at
<mdke> http://doc.ubuntu.com/gnome/about-ubuntu/C/index.html
<rob^> dang, I didn't get sponsored..
<ajmitch> another one :(
<mdke> rob^, no one from the doc team has got sponsored
<ajmitch> soon there won't be any doc team there
<rob^> yeah? that sucks
<jdub> mdke: will any of the file locations change in the next ubuntu-docs update?
<mdke> unless corey did
<mdke> jdub, yeah they may
<jdub> mdke: hrm, ok
<mdke> jdub, it will be finalised before the end of the day I hope
<jdub> ok
<mdke> i'll post it to that bug report when it is?
<jdub> thanks - seb needs to know to change gnome-panel
<jjesse> anyone got some time to whip up some upgrade notes and post them on the wiki?
<rob^> yeah I suppose I do
<mdke> sabdfl, those comments on about ubuntu are valid and have been made by silbs in her bugs reports, but we can't drastically change about-ubuntu now, doc freeze is past and we need to get the doc to translation ASAP
<mdke> the css will be addressed though
<rob^> jjesse, what did you have in mind?
<jjesse> on #kubuntu this morning there is lots of talk about breezy which is nice, just trying to find out when i have time to upgrage
<rob^> jjesse, like features and stuff, or a howto?
<jjesse> rob^: people on #kubuntu are asking do i have to download the cd to upgrade, can i just change my sources.list or is there something else that i need to 
<jjesse> do
<jjesse> rob^: maybe something like HoaryUpgradeNotes (i think that's the warty -> hoary) upgrade section
<rob^> jjesse, ok, I'll check it out
<rob^> brb
<sabdfl> mdke: if it hasn't started heavy translation, i'd like to climb in and edit it now
<sabdfl> is it in a baz archive i can get?
<mdke> it's in our svn repository
<jdub> sabdfl: so, again, task is not assigned to me anymore?
<mdke> sabdfl, i'll apply a patch if you make one
<mdke> but please bear in mind that it is not only the firefox home page
<sabdfl> jdub: the task for the document which is currently accidentally dropped form the menu, is also in at least three different places on the hard drive according to three different apps, is not publicly visible, does not currently use the ubuntu css? yes
<mdke> sabdfl, again, this sort of thing is best done before freeze
<sabdfl> mdke: as far as i can tell the doc is not even VISIBLE at freeze time
<sabdfl> so it's hard to have commented on it
<mdke> erm
<sabdfl> i can work quickly and efficiently, and we'll all be pleased by the results
<mdke> sabdfl, the document has not changed greatly since appearing in Hoary
<sabdfl> where can i get the latest version in revision control?
<sabdfl> mdke: it really needs to!
<mdke> sabdfl, i take your points, but it is very late. Gimme a sec and i'll link you
<sabdfl> thanks
<mdke> https://docteam.ubuntu.com/repos/trunk/gnome/aboutubuntu/C/about-ubuntu.xml
<mdke> sabdfl, ^
<mdke> but please don't blame us that the document has not been ready to comment on, cos we've done our best
<mdke> and it's been in hoary for 6 months
<sabdfl> mdke: no blame here, i'd just like to get it, edit it, and check it off my list
<sabdfl> guys, baz is so much better than svn... 
<mdke> k
<mdke> silbs made some comments on the file about a month ago in the list which we acted upon straight away
<mdke> if you send a patch, we'll apply it
<sabdfl> hmm... is the canonical version the XML one?
<sabdfl> why not an HTML page?
<mdke> dude
<mdke> please!
<sabdfl> just curious. is this docbook-xml?
<mdke> yep
<mdke> it can be transformed into html and other formats
<mdke> we ship in html
<mdke> and it is easier for making po files and pdf's and so on to work in xml
<sabdfl> ok
<jdub> mdke: btw, we're just getting the first sign of pushback on the whole "ship html" mess :)
<sabdfl> svn co, then svn diff?
<rob^> jdub, what like?
<mdke> jdub, ?
<jdub> "why can't i have my nice translated document when i click About Ubuntu like i did in hoary?"
<mdke> sabdfl, if you just edit the file and make a patch normally, then send to docteam list, we'll apply it
<mdke> jdub, the answer is "the doc hasn't been translated yet", not "because the docteam ships in html"
<jdub> mdke: it's both
<mdke> jdub, how so?
<jdub> because it doesn't integrate with the help readers, we can't make the about ubuntu launcher a simple "load this document" and get the right translation for the user's locale
<rob^> hmm..
<mdke> that is odd
<sabdfl> mdke: the ubuntu logo that it is referring to is an old version
<jdub> i tried to explain it way back when
<mdke> sabdfl, the css and logo hasn't yet been sorted
<jdub> why going for the lowest common denominator was a bad idea
<sabdfl> ok
<rob^> is yelp still crashing with qanda tags?
<rob^> and does it display them properly yet?
<mdke> jdub, why doesn't it work with html
<jdub> mdke: because there is no magic "where do i get my translations" with html
<mdke> you can't point them to /usr/share/doc/ubuntu-docs/HTML/about-ubuntu/LOCALE/index.html?
<jdub> rob^: doubt it
<rob^> jdub, thats half the reason html was chosen
<jdub> mdke: we'd have to put additional smarts  into every single thing that launches docs, instead of using the existing infrastructure
<jdub> rob^: yes, and one i suggested was a bit frivolous
<mdke> jdub, dude don't start.
<mdke> you intervened occasionally in irc and kept promising to write emails that never came
<mdke> i don't remember this problem being raised
<jdub> i sent two lengthy emails about it
<jdub> one of which mentioned the translation issue
<jdub> though not as specific as this (which is the most visible case)
<mdke> hmm
<mdke> well the meeting decision was unanimous
<rob^> do we have time to get our docs working in Yelp?
<mdke> we couldn't think of one single disadvantage
<rob^> as xml?
<mdke> no point crying over spilt milk anyhow
<jdub> mdke: hey, not like that at all
<jdub> there are lots of disadvantages :)
<jdub> rob^: docbook could be shipped with the packages, in the correct places for use in yelp/khelpcenter
<mdke> jdub, well we weren't aware of any when we made the decision in the meeting, because I remember it was a really easy one and everyone was unanimous
<mdke> ok i'm going to back out of this
<seb128_> so, who broke the documentation? :)
<jdub> mdke: unfortunately, much of it was informed by sean, without any reference to the developers
<rob^> jdub, would it look the same?
<mdke> i'll check email this evening and see if the docs are ready for translating
<jdub> rob^: it would be rendered with yelp css
<jdub> rob^: the other docs that have qanda probably wouldn't work
<rob^> jdub, let me have a look
<sabdfl> mdke: how do i make a web link in docbook?
<rob^> brb
<mdke> jdub, and you picked 4 months after the decision was taken to start complaining?
<mdke> sabdfl, <ulink url="address">link</ulink>
<seb128_> mdke: complaining about what? html format?
<mdke> yeah
<jdub> mdke: i raised my concerns many times leading up to the decision, i was overruled, and have raised it now to demonstrate a real effect on users (and a regression)
<seb128_> mdke: I just complained because I noticed we have big regressions on the desktop 
<sabdfl> mdke: thanks muchly
<seb128_> mdke: that just br0ke translations
<mdke> seb128_, in terms of packaging docs best thing is to talk to jbailey who has been helping us with the packaging
<rob^> just checking out the faqguide xml in yelp, it actually works pretty good now
<mdke> seb128_, the intention was to ship translations as html too
<rob^> and renders properly
<seb128_> mdke: yelp is much better integrated and point to the right locale
<rob^> the only thing causing it issues is the ubuntu/kubuntu profiles
<sabdfl> is there a good docbook viewer?
<seb128_> mdke: a browser entry would open the en version
<sabdfl> to test my work?
<mdke> sabdfl, yelp
<seb128_> sabdfl: yelp? 
<jdub> sabdfl: you can use yelp
<rob^> yep
<seb128_> mdke: html for translations is a big regression
<mdke> seb128_, so there is no solution?
<seb128_> mdke: ship xml like for hoary
<seb128_> mdke: it's amazing you guys just broke it without even mailing ubuntu-devel before
<mdke> erm
<seb128_> html doesn't work for GNOME
<mdke> mdz was involved in the decision
<jdub> mdke: (sorry to raise it again, i know it's an ugly issue, but after being overruled so strongly i think it's reasonable to come back and demonstrate the failures of the decision)
<seb128_> still, we have one list to communicate
<rob^> can we tell yelp which profile to use?
<seb128_> such discussion should have a notice on it
<mdke> if someone had said, as jdub says he did, "translations will break", we would never have made that decision
<rob^> if so, I can't see why we can't use xml.
<jdub> rob^: i don't think so
<seb128_> if somebody would have send a mail on the devel list people knowing would had a chance to comment
<rob^> I could remove the kubuntu profile, might take a day or two
<seb128_> sure by making decision on your corner you have no feedback
<mdke> seb128_, i asked mdz "should we discuss with the technical board", he said, no problem
<jdub> rob^: but you could process each profile into a separate document
<mdke> anyway
<mdke> how can we fix this?
<seb128_> mdke: you didn't say him that would be an issue for translations neither
<rob^> jdub, it would be cleaner like that
<mdke> seb128_, i didn't know
<seb128_> mdke: that's why you should have asked to some people before making decisions
<jdub> rob^: (i tend to think profiles are overengineered for this anyway)
<rob^> mdke, we could just remove kubuntu profile from the faq and ship in xml, yelp now renders properly
<seb128_> mdke: can't we just roll back to the hoary packages format?
<mdke> seb128_, the announcement was made on the devel list too but I guess no one saw it
<mdke> seb128_, better talk to jbailey about it
<jbailey> I'm here.
<mdke> the xml files are there, but we will need to edit the faqguide as rob^ says
<seb128_> mdke: the style guide?
<rob^> the style guide isn't shipped is it?
<jdub> seb128_: the reason why the discussion went haywire was because it was turned into a silly gnome vs. kde "let's make it generic" mess, which screwed everyone
<seb128_> jdub: KDE can't work with docbook files?
<jdub> seb128_: so, at the time, it was better to make a decision and get on with it
<jbailey> rob^: About, faq, and quicktour only in the ubuntu-docs package.
<jdub> seb128_: they develop with docbook, but ship modified html
<rob^> seb128_, no yelp had problems with qanda tags
<rob^> which the faq uses
<rob^> but it seems to be fixed now
<mdke> ok i'm going to leave you guys too it because I am late for an appointment
<jdub> seb128_: there were some specious incompatibility issues (the least specious of which was qanda) with yelp
<seb128_> rob^: you should have raised the issue when it was time to fix yelp for 5.10
<seb128_> rob^: good so
<jdub> rob^: i did say to you guys that it would be fixed :-)
<seb128_> later mdke
<rob^> I rased the issue with the rest of the docteam, but was told not to worry because we would ship html
<mdke> try and talk about solutions though please
<jbailey> seb128_: This will also be helped in that I plan to make weekly uploads through the next release so that we get the state of the documentation as it changes.
<mdke> also seb128_ there is a docteam meeting in about an hour so hopefully it can be sorted out during that
<jdub> jbailey: need to ship docbook in the same directories as we did with hoary, same as all other gnome docs
<mdke> bye all
<rob^> cya mdke 
<jbailey> jdub: Is this permanent, or a hack for breezy?
<seb128_> thanks mdke, later
<seb128_> jbailey: permanent
<jdub> jbailey: it really ought to be permanent, but i guess that's up to the doc team
<seb128_> jbailey: that's what GNOME uses
<jdub> given that the decision was made here previously
<jbailey> jdub: Judging by seb's reaction, I'm guessing it's not. =)
<rob^> we will discuss it in the meeting in an hour
<jdub> jbailey: well, seb can sometimes even be blunter than i ;)
<rob^> I can't see why we can't ship xml now, so we may 
<seb128_> jbailey: sorry, I don't like to discover b0rkage because people just take decisions without noticing people concerned (ie: the desktop team)
<jbailey> rob^: IIRC, one of the documents doesn't exist in docbook, only html.
<rob^> jbailey, yes, but its only a new half finished doc
<rob^> we can just scrap it and redo in xml
<rob^> the quicktour
<jbailey> Ah, the short one.
<jbailey> Not so bad. =)
<rob^> yep
<jbailey> How are translations handled for this?  Do they come in the language packs?
<jdub> rob^: we probably don't need to install quicktour on the disk...
<rob^> jdub, no your right
<rob^> I say maybe just have it available on the web site when its done
<jdub> jbailey: no, not at the moment
<seb128_> jbailey: no
<rob^> only a few people will use it
<jdub> jbailey: dpkg -L gedit-data
<jbailey> Le paquet gedit-data n'est pas install.
<jdub> rob^: what's the easiest way to suck down all the docs?
<rob^> the user guide when thats done for next release (hopefully) will be better and more in depth anyway
<jbailey> jdub: Did you mean a different package?
<jdub> jbailey: just so you see the layout
<seb128_> jbailey: gnome-panel-data
<rob^> jdub, its blown out to about 200mb due to people uploading crap
<jdub> rob^: ouch
<seb128_> jbailey: just example of apps shipping translated xml files
<jdub> jbailey: see under /usr/share/gnome/help
<jbailey>  /gnome/help and /omf both?
<seb128_> yeah
<jbailey> seb128_: Ugh.  Whill those be split out for dapper?
<seb128_> 'dapper'? 
<rob^> jdub, when we change to bazzar I hope none of that crap makes it across
<jdub> seb128_: breezy+1 :)
<rob^> jdub, svn checkout https://docteam.ubuntu.com/repos/trunk ubuntu-doc
<jbailey> rob^: It'll be gone before then.  I'm just waiting for write access to the svn.
<seb128_> oh, it has a name ? :)
<jdub> it's bizaare that they're not already split
<seb128_> jbailey: not afaik ... maybe want to speak to pitti/carlos about that
<jdub> rob^: this will be 200MB? :)
<rob^> jbailey, I'm just waiting for a new password and I will be too
<rob^> jdub, yep
<rob^> you could decend into the directories and pull down just parts of it
<rob^> generic/faqguide for example
<jbailey> rob^: who are you working with, elmo?
<jdub> ta
<rob^> jbailey, yes, elmo controls the access
<jbailey> 'kay, I'll poke him again then.
<rob^> thanks
<jdub> yay, fixage!
<rob^> I did about an hour ago, no reply 
<jbailey> seb128_: 'kay.  I'm just curious how much random weight gnome-docs-{en,fr,etc} would save.
<seb128_> jbailey: maybe 50M on a desktop install
<jbailey> So probably worth it for people apt-get upgrading in .au. ;)
<rob^> jdub, yep, they should be
* jdub spanks jbailey 
<rob^> jdub, the kubuntu version might have been done on time if this were originally the case
<jdub> rob^: sorry, missed the context?
<rob^> jdub it's bizaare that they're not already split
<rob^> ^^
<jdub> ah, i meant the translations via language packs
<rob^> ah ok sorry :)
<jdub> but yes, same thing for the profiled docs ;)
<jdub> too much overengineering
<rob^> yep
<jbailey> Is there a posted agenda for the DT meeting?
<rob^> yes
<rob^> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocteamMeetingAgenda
<jdub> jbailey: you adding packaging/shipping changes to it?
<jbailey> jdub: Yup
<jdub> ok
<rob^> jjesse, I have something basic for you at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BreezyUpgradeNotes
<rob^> jbailey, can we move the packaging changes to the top, it will effect some of the others
<jsgotangco> ?
<jbailey> rob^: Sure.  I assumed that whoever was chairing the meeting would order them at the beginning.
<rob^> its usually top down
<jsgotangco> what is this about?
<rob^> jsgotangco, you will see come the meeting
<rob^> shipping in xml
<jsgotangco> gahhhhh
<jdub> hrh
<jdub> heh
<jsgotangco> i really don't mind xml
<jjesse> rob^: that looks great thanks :)
<jbailey> rob^: Are you moving it or shall I?
<jsgotangco> except that it will entail a lot of changes
<rob^> jbailey, you can if you want
<jjesse> rob^:  sorry i didn't have time this mroning, busy @ work
<rob^> jjesse, np
<jbailey> rob^: Done
<rob^> thanks jbailey 
<mdke> back
<rob^> hi mdke 
<mdke> rob^, just applied your working copy
<rob^> thanks mdke 
<rob^> I can help out with the packaging in future if needed, I know the basics
<rob^> thought I might mention that
<jbailey> rob^: Cool.
<mdke> what else needs doing to ship faq in xml?
<jbailey> rob^: The three of us can play together then.
<rob^> mdke, just remove the kubuntu profile
<mdke> it needs to be deprofiled?
<rob^> yep
<mdke> ok
<mdke> can it be done today?
<rob^> maybe
<rob^> its almost midnight here
<jsgotangco> i just left in a few hours for some beers and this channel looks totally different now
<mdke> yeah we've had some issues
<rob^> sfd tomorrow..
<rob^> yep
<jdub> jsgotangco: too many beers? :)
<jsgotangco> jdub: its not a good day for me
<jdub> rob^: you celebrating sfd?
<rob^> jdub, yes, installfest
<jdub> rad
<mdke> rob^, so what do you think we should do with the kde profiling?
<rob^> me being the local ubuntu guru and all ;P
<jdub> i am donning my orange overalls and doing CDs/talks love ;)
<rob^> mdke, kill it, it more a hinderance then a help
<jbailey> mdke: What does that mean?
<jdub> rob^: where are you based?
<jbailey> jdub: Orange?
<rob^> jdub, australia, Townsville
<jdub> jbailey: *very* orange :-)
<jdub> rob^: oh!
<jbailey> jdub: Are you wearing them on your tour?
<jdub> elite :-)
<rob^> hehehe
<jdub> jbailey: i guess i'll have to take them :)
<ajmitch> more australians :)
<mdke> rob^, what about the arch profiling?
<rob^> mdke, there isn't any at the moment
<rob^> all three are the same
<jbailey> ajmitch: I keep forgetting that there's more to .au than Sydney.
<mdke> rob^, ouch
<rob^> yep
<rob^> sean left it in a mess
<jbailey> It's the problem with only having visited one building^Wcity.
<mdke> can we stop building three copies then?
<ajmitch> heh, yeah
<jdub> jbailey: ha ha ha
<mdke> maybe jbailey can sort that
* ajmitch got to spend a bit more time in .au
<rob^> mdke, yes we can
<mdke> great
<jbailey> mdke: I'm ever your slave.  What do you need?
<mdke> lol
<rob^> but if we want different faqs for the three archs then yeah..
<mdke> jbailey, the current packaging has three editions of the faq guide, separated by arch, apparently they are all the same
<jbailey> ah, really?
<jdub> way too complicated
<jsgotangco> gimme a few minutes tonight is friday and i have to go to the family altar and offer something for my ancestors then we go to meeting
* mdke nods
<mdke> if we ship the faqguide as xml then this won't be a problem i guess
<mdke> but we need to remove the kubuntu profiling right?
<rob^> mdke, yes, otherwise you get things like "ubuntukubuntu" happening
<mdke> gah
<rob^> very ugly
<mdke> let's start eliminating it?
<rob^> the meeting is in 15 mins
<rob^> I guess I can start
<rob^> :)
<mdke> i'll help
<mdke> what do I search for
<rob^> things like:
<rob^> <phrase os="kde">kubuntu</phrase>
<rob^> &ubuntu;&kubuntu;
<mdke> k
<mdke> which file shall i start on?
<mdke> gimme a short one :)
<jsgotangco> tsk...
<jsgotangco> i've seen this before
<rob^> actually I can probably get it done pretty quickly
<rob^> give me 5 minutes
<mdke> i'm starting on applications.xml
<rob^> ok, I'll do faqguide.xml
<mdke> finished!
<mdke> there was only one...
<rob^> i had 24
<mdke> ok hardware.xml
<rob^> ok done faqguide.xml
<rob^> ah crap, I got to svn up
<mdke> none there
<rob^> there isn't much
<mdke> hardware and preface done
<rob^> like I said, if the kubuntu and ubuntu faq guides were different documents more would have been done
<rob^> its pretty easy actually
<mdke> upgrading-ubuntu done
<jsgotangco> bahhh
<jsgotangco> (who's idea was html in the 1st place)
* jsgotangco sulks
<mdke> lol
<rob^> seans
<mdke> you know full well
<mdke> i liked the idea though
<mdke> because I had no idea it would break translations
<jsgotangco> i was against it from the start
<rob^> oh, its horrible to work with anyway
<jdub> it was very silly :)
<mdke> troubleshooting.xml done
<jsgotangco> jdub: a word would have been more helpful earlier
<rob^> you have to keep in mind so much crap so not to mess things up
<jdub> jsgotangco: i tried, was overruled :|
<mdke> tips and tricks.xml done
<rob^> mdke, you might as well do them all :)
<mdke> ok
* jsgotangco prefers the yelp stylesheets anyway
<rob^> rather then me email you my changes etc
<rob^> there is only like 8 documents, and its just search and replace
* jsgotangco always does it yelp-compatible
<rob^> or remove
<rob^> umm, you will also need to remove everything rapped in tags with os="kde" too
<mdke> k
<mdke> remove the whole thing?
<rob^> there shouldn't be too much
<mdke> or just the tag?
<rob^> no, everything rapped in that tag
<mdke> ok
<jsgotangco> alright guys 8 minutes
<rob^> there is a separate paragraph for gnome
<jdub> jsgotangco: u-m?
<jsgotangco> jdub: ahr
<jsgotangco> 4 minutes
<sabdfl> ok, i've edited up the doc
<sabdfl> svn diff gives a simple diff, will that be ok?
<mdke> should be
<sabdfl> mdke: email addr?
<sabdfl> m.e.u@breathe.com?
<mdke> sabdfl, yeah that's fine
<sabdfl> sent
<sabdfl> thanks guys
<mdke> i am crazy editing something else right now so gimme a bit
<sabdfl> ping me if there's anything controversial in my changes
<jsgotangco> #u-m time
<sabdfl> i've shortened the front page, expanded some of the others
<rob^> anyone else for the meeting!?
<mdke> sabdfl, ok
<mdke> rob^, i am gonna concentrate on removing this profiling
<rob^> ok
<rob^> thanks :)
<rob^> let me know if you need anything
<mdke> rob^, does ./validate faqguide.xml check all the files?
<rob^> yes
<rob^> all the relevent ones
<mdke> crap
<mdke> one error
<rob^> you may have to remove entries from faqguide.xml for the files you rm'ed
<mdke> the error is in this line apparently:
<mdke> <book lang="&language;" id="x01">
<mdke> can you check it for me?
<mdke> svn up && ./validate.sh etc
<mdke> rob^, any luck?
<rob^> yep
<rob^> but now I'm getting:
<rob^> ./validate.sh generic/faqguide/C/faqguide.xml
<rob^> generic/faqguide/C/faqguide.xml:31: element book: validity error : Element book content does not follow the DTD, expecting ((title , subtitle? , titleabbrev?)? , bookinfo? , (dedication | toc | lot | glossary | bibliography | preface | chapter | reference | part | article | appendix | index | setindex | colophon)*), got (title bookinfo preface chapter chapter chapter chapter chapter chapter chapter chapter chapter chapter CDATA chapter a
<rob^> ppendix appendix )
<rob^> Document generic/faqguide/C/faqguide.xml does not validate
<mdke> that is what I get
<mdke> any idea what is wrong?
<rob^> its weard how it bums out midway thru the tag
<mdke> weird that that wasn't there before as well
<jeffsch> i just did make faqi386 and it built fine. I haven
<jeffsch> i havent' looked at the result yet
<jeffsch> revision 1765
<rob^> yeah, it will still build with those errors
<mdke> use ./validate.sh
<jeffsch> why not just leave it? the kde profile doesn't break anything. there's no point pulling hair over it atm
<mdke> well it gives you ubuntukubuntu all over the place
<mdke> and SynapticKynaptic
<rob^> jeffsch, we cant spesify which profile when using xml
<jeffsch> argh. stoopid yelp.
<rob^> s/spesify/specify
<mdke> anyway, it's all removed now, except for that validation error
<mdke> any ideas?
<rob^> I'm trying to decypher the error message
<mdke> it is line 31 it doesn't like right?
<rob^> that error usually means there are tags in the wrong order
<mdke> yeah
<rob^> but the way it explains it sucks
<jeffsch> it got some data outside of a tag
<jeffsch> CDATA is not allowed in the tag <book>
* jdub really has to figure out how to completely convince irssi to stop matching 'jeff' in nicks :-)
<mdke> jeffsch, CDATA?
<jeffsch> yes. read the output from the script
<jeffsch> got (title bookinfo preface chapter chapter chapter chapter chapter chapter chapter chapter chapter chapter CDATA chapter
<jeffsch> CDATA is character data
<jeffsch> so there are some characters that are not enclosed within tags somewhere in the document
<mdke> that is gonna be hard to pin down?
<jeffsch> the brute force way is to do it by eye. it could take 5 seconds or 5 minutes 
<jeffsch> a script genius or a sed artist could do it much faster though :)
<jeffsch> i am neither :(
<mdke> crap
<mdke> can we tell which chapter it is in?
<rob^> <book lang="&language;" id="x01">
<rob^> thats the tag
<jeffsch> it's somewhere in the faqguide.xml file... the validate script won't read in the other files
<mdke> sure?
<jeffsch> yep
<jeffsch> maybe do an svn diff.
<rob^> I've seen this before now that you mention it, grr
* mdke hugs jsgotangco 
<rob^> grouphug.us
<jsgotangco> oh don't worry about me
<jsgotangco> it just happened that a lot of things happened to me
<jsgotangco> not just here but irl
<mdke> well don't worry about Ubuntu things
<jsgotangco> i just found out yesterday that 2 of my cousins are dead in N.O.
<mdke> they will sort themselves out
<mdke> shit sorry about that
<jbailey> Ouch.
<jsgotangco> and things haven't been good at home as well
<jsgotangco> so what i've been doing here was sort of an escape
<jsgotangco> (a productive one at that)
<mdke> rob^, i was thinking perhaps we should revert the faqguide changes and start again with removing the profiling
<rob^> yeah, might be easier :(
<rob^> umm hang on
<rob^> before you do
<rob^> let me try one last thing
<mdke> by the way there are some validation problems in rescue-mode.xml which weren't caused by me
<mdke> missing entities
<mdke> ditto applications.xml
<rob^> I just removed some cruft and the problem went away
<rob^> now just a few easier problems to solve
<mdke> maybe the entities are defined in faqguide.xml?
<mdke> all the files seem to give errors validating
<rob^> mdke, you dont vailidate them all, only faqguide.xml
<rob^> it pulls them all in
<mdke> jeffsch said that that only validates that file, not the others
<rob^> yes
<rob^> it isn't a complete docbook document without faqguide.xml
<mdke> so did you solve the problem with faqguide.xml?
<rob^> hmm...
<jeffsch> if you validate faqguide.xml, then it won't catch the errors in applications.xml
<rob^> it should
<rob^> it pulls it in
<jeffsch> rob^: <mdke> by the way there are some validation problems in rescue-mode.xml
<jeffsch> rob^: it should. it's what you would expect, but it does not :(
<rob^> I think the problem is that not all of the profile is removed
<mdke> jeffsch, maybe those problems are due to the fact that it is not complete on its own
<mdke> it is when it refers to entites in other documents
<rob^> yay got it
<rob^> I can get it to vailidate if i comment out the following in faqguide.xml:
<rob^> 	&rescue-mode;
<rob^> 	&tips-and-tricks;
<rob^> 	&troubleshooting;
<rob^> 	&upgrading-ubuntu;
<rob^> 	&cc-by-sa;
<rob^> 	&fdl; -->
<jbailey> *lol*
<rob^> hehe
<jbailey> So if you remove the document?;)
<rob^> ok minus fdl and rescue mode
<jbailey> It would be vaguely satisfying if the FDL wouldn't validate.
<rob^> hahahaha
<jeffsch> it's catching the CDATA after the 11th chapter tag...
<rob^> the last chapter?
<rob^> yep
<rob^> comment it out, and it validates np
<jeffsch> there it is! 
<jeffsch> upgrading-ubuntu.xml
<rob^> yep
<rob^> got it
<rob^> a stray "kub"
<rob^> what a pita
<mdke> sorry about that!!!
<mdke> thanks
<rob^> ok, well I have also remove more of the profile whist I was at it
<rob^> so do you want to commit mine?
<mdke> sure
<mdke> is it a new account you need, or just the old password?
<rob^> old password
<rob^> have new gpg key though if thats needed again
<mdke> ah
<jeffsch> rob^: have you ever used esvn? 
<mdke> send me the new patch if you want
<jeffsch> if you have backups, the svn password is stored in the clear
<jsgotangco> esvn saves the password in clear text
<jeffsch> in esvnrc
<rob^> jeffsch, I tried it, but find it easier just to use the command line
<jeffsch> so if you can find the old esvnrc, you should be able to get the password from it
<rob^> which file does it store it in?
<rob^> under /home?
<jsgotangco> .esvnrc
<jeffsch> in $HOME/.qt/esvnrc
<jsgotangco> .qt rather
<rob^> hmm no qt
<rob^> grr I didn't copy it to the new drive
* rob^ wonders where his backup cd is..
<rob^> its a long shot
<jsgotangco> don't you backup your home with the hidden files
<rob^> not all of them
<jsgotangco> doh
<rob^> ok got the dvd, lets see
<rob^> nup, its goneske
<rob^> I have what I think is my old pub key
<rob^> nope, no good, sorry
<rob^> heh
<rob^> ah crud, the credits etc page is all screwed up in yelp
<jeffsch> yelp sucks man. it's the worst help viewer on the planet
<rob^> yeah not wrong
<jeffsch> it's why we wanted to release html in the first place
<rob^> but we need to release xml
<rob^> maybe ubuntu need to sponsor someone to fix it
<jeffsch> if we release xml, yelp screws it up
<jsgotangco> yelp is slooowwwww
<jeffsch> if we release html, yelp screws it up
<jeffsch> we can't win
<rob^> what other choices do we have?
<jeffsch> we can only do the "least worst"
<rob^> is there a better help viewer somewhere?
<mdke> too late for that
<mdke> gnome uses yelp
<rob^> yes
<rob^> well what do the gnome docers do with it?
<mdke> rob^, did you send the fix for the faqguide?
<rob^> they must hate it also?
<jsgotangco> yelp is the gnome help viewer.
<jsgotangco> ...
<rob^> mdke, the credits/licence page needs fixing
<jbailey> mdke: Do you have the bug number for the firefox start page?  I can't fnd it in bugzilla.
<mpt> rob^/mdke: This is all looking very familiar :-)
<mdke> jbailey, #3985
<mdke> mpt, yeah
<jbailey> Oh, is it a malone bug?
<jsgotangco> mpt: deja vu 6 months ago
<rob^> heh
<mdke> jbailey, nope bugzilla
<jsgotangco> bugzilla reset?
<mdke> it's an old bug
<mdke> maybe there are others too
<jbailey> I've assigned it to me now.
<mdke> cool
<jsgotangco> try looking for old unresloved bugs under enrico
<jsgotangco> oh wait
<jsgotangco> we changed that already
<jeffsch> ok gotta run. cya's later
<jbailey> Hmm, mdz had assigned it to iwj this morning for some reason.
<jbailey> Ah well, it's assigned to me now. =)
<jsgotangco> hey jbailey also did Ubuntu Marketplace tee hee
* jsgotangco is roaming around ubuntu land atm
<mdke> it was assigned to iwj because he's the ff maintainer i think
<jsgotangco> maybe i should have myself listed in marketplace
<jsgotangco> wtf
<jsgotangco> WhyIDontUbuntu ?
<jsgotangco> ahh
<jsgotangco> its a good cause
<rob^> hmm
<rob^> yelp is slow at rendering now for me
<jsgotangco> TOLD YA
<rob^> hehe
<rob^> bloody dodgy piece of sw
* rob^ tracks down the devels and abuses them
<jsgotangco> well Shaun McCance is actually a good guy
<jsgotangco> that badly needs help
<jsgotangco> IMO
<rob^> hehe
<rob^> is it me or does the front page of the faq look kind of bland in yelp?
<jsgotangco> he called for help for Gnome 2.12 user guide a few days ago
<rob^> he should get the viewer fixed first :P
<jsgotangco> its actually updated
<rob^> can we alter the css for yelp at all?
<jsgotangco> with some work yes
<jsgotangco> i did try it a few months ago
<rob^> how hard is it?
<jsgotangco> even actually updating the whole front page
<jsgotangco> rob^: you know how scrollkeeper works?
<rob^> no idea
<jsgotangco> start there ;)
<rob^> can we somehow get the css that was created for html and stick it in yelp?
<jsgotangco> no
<rob^> fark
<jsgotangco> its not just like that
<rob^> what a crap piece of sw
<jsgotangco> actually its not
<jsgotangco> its actually nice
<jsgotangco> it just needs severe tweaking on the transformation
<jsgotangco> its actually much better than khelpcenter imo
<rob^> yay I love how it renders <literallayout> all messed up!
<jsgotangco> me and sean used to call work in yelp as "dumbing down"
<jsgotangco> but i got interested on it on finding workarounds
<jsgotangco> because of its docbook limitations
<rob^> yeah I'm doing that now
<jsgotangco> try doing a footnote, its going to be a pain :)
<rob^> not going to bother
* rob^ bangs head on monitor
<jsgotangco> heh
<jsgotangco> that's why i always code with yelp as least common denominator
<jsgotangco> if it doesnt look good in yelp, its no good
<rob^> it shouldn't be that way
<jsgotangco> yelp is more like a book viewer if you notice
<rob^> ok, one question then I will have the final xml files ready for translation and everything:
<rob^> can we make the front page of the faq guide look nicer?
<jsgotangco> how did you fix the structure
<jsgotangco> i don't have my svn in this box
<jsgotangco> generally the first page will show the TOC and an intro text if you included one
<rob^> well, we moved thing like rev history, authors etc to another page
<rob^> at the moment its an ugly toc and thats it
<jsgotangco> you put that on your first page
<jsgotangco> yelp puts that in a separate page
<jsgotangco> like i said, yelp is more of a book viewer
<rob^> eg
<rob^>         <abstract>
<rob^>             <para>This document is a compilation of questions that are commonly
<rob^>                 asked by users who are new to Ubuntu and the
<rob^>                 answers to these questions.</para>
<rob^>         </abstract>
<rob^> doesn't appear on the first page
<rob^> publisher and author should probably too
<rob^> ah i see
<jsgotangco> it goes in a preface page
<jsgotangco> "About this document"
<jsgotangco> you can make workaround by imitating the way gnome docs do it
<jsgotangco> usually at the end
<jsgotangco> refer to a standard gnome doc
<rob^> hmm looks like there is nothing I can do about it
<rob^> ok looks like I am done
<mdke> how are we looking?
<rob^> Just want to change one last thing, then we are done
<mdke> great
<mdke> so we can _really_ freeze strings?
<rob^> hehe yeah
<mdke> phew
<mdke> good work
<jsgotangco> wonder if sean still looks at chat logs
<rob^> ?
<jsgotangco> just a thought
<mdke> hmm
<mdke> we need to look over the new about-ubuntu
<mdke> i've seen a typo already
<jsgotangco> can you generate a page preview
<mdke> open it with yelp?
<jsgotangco> no i want to see it in a browser
<jsgotangco> im staying in another house for a while, i didnt bring my laptop with svn
<mdke> ok
<jsgotangco> i'd like to see sabdfl's changes
<jsgotangco> (i've already optimized those tags for yelp even before)
<mdke> http://doc.ubuntu.com/gnome/about-ubuntu/C/
<mdke> Warning: image file '../../images/C/UbuntuLogo.png' not found.
<rob^> how can I get the abstract to show up somewhere?
<mdke> what is that one about?
<jsgotangco> it actually reads nicely now
<jsgotangco> oh crap
<jsgotangco> i forgot to add that to svn
<jsgotangco> it didnt upload then
<jsgotangco> you can just get corey's ubuntu logo in quicktour and rename it
<jsgotangco> its the same logo anyways
<jsgotangco> hmm
<jsgotangco> i like the way he re-structed the pgae
<rob^> ok, the front page is kind of boring (blame yelp), but its done. 
<rob^> quote milhouse "It took seven 
<rob^> hours, but we did it. It's done! "
<rob^> (actually it took longer then that the last two nights)
<jsgotangco> add a logo or something to make the frontpage look a bit brighter
<rob^> yes.. but we've got to shoot it from different angles, again and again and again!
* rob^ is tired and delusional
<mdke> where can I get that logo that about-ubuntu needs?
<mdke> i've fixed the typos i can see
<jsgotangco> mdke: look at the quicktour folder, there's a png, copy it and rename
<jsgotangco> its the same logo
<mdke> ok
<jsgotangco> thanks i should kick myself for not bringing my unit
<mdke> i don't think it has committed
<mdke> i did svn add on it but i don't think it uploaded
<mdke> i got:
<mdke> A  (bin)  ../../images/C/UbuntuLogo.png
<mdke> oh i get it
<mdke> sorry
<mdke> done
<jsgotangco> thanks
<jsgotangco> although its strange
<rob^> ok, I just sent the diffs to the mailing list
<jsgotangco> the html output doesn't get the image either
<jsgotangco> something must be wrong
<mdke> it should get it now
<rob^> ah shit
<rob^> its not vailidating again
<mdke> those diffs will not be on my latest revision anyhow :(
<rob^> ?
<mdke> 1768 is latest
<rob^> grr
<mdke> soz
<mdke> still, i should be able to apply the patches anyway, it's crazy that I can't
* rob^ yells out naughty four letter words
<jsgotangco> NICE!
<mdke> we need drugs
<rob^> LOVE!
<rob^> COKE!
<rob^> GRRR!
<jsgotangco> ARGH!
<jsgotangco> GYAH!
<mdke> rob^, just do one big patch
<rob^> wont svn up remove all my changes?
<rob^> (I have a script that does individual ones)
<mdke> argh
<mdke> i don't think it should but I'm not 100%
<mdke> jsgotangco, about-ubuntu now looks like this in yelp: http://www.mdke.org/About.png
<mdke> shit
<mdke> don't click
<mdke> http://mdke.mine.nu/about.png
<jsgotangco> yuck
<mdke> yep
<jsgotangco> is Welcome to Ubuntu a subtitle?
<mdke> yes
<mdke>     <title>
<mdke>         <inlinemediaobject>
<mdke>             <imageobject>
<mdke>                 <imagedata fileref="../../images/&language;/UbuntuLogo.png" for$
<mdke>             </imageobject>
<mdke>         </inlinemediaobject>
<mdke>     Welcome to Ubuntu
<mdke>     </title>
<jsgotangco> ahh
<jsgotangco> that's the problem
<jsgotangco> remove Welcome to ubuntu
<mdke> ok
<jsgotangco> under <title>, make a <subtitle> pair
<mdke> put it in a separate para?
<jsgotangco> no
<mdke> ok
<jsgotangco> Yelp renders <subtitle> differently
<mdke> ok that works better
<mdke> i have done so many commits today
<rob^> ok
<rob^> mine now validates
<jsgotangco> yeah
<jsgotangco> i've already mastered the art of dumbed down docbook in yelp
<rob^> now are we gonna fix this revision problem?
<mdke> rob^, i can confirm that svn up doesn't lose your changes
<mdke> lemme do one last commit
<rob^> i'm gonna back up just in case
<jsgotangco> mdke: <subtitle> usually renders in italics
<rob^> k
<mdke> great thanks jsgotangco 
<mdke> committed
<mdke> did we decide what docs I am making pots for, apart from au and faq
<jsgotangco> that's the only one
<jsgotangco> kubuntu is sooo spotty
<jsgotangco> but i manage to get some time from Riddell
<jsgotangco> did anyone hear from jjesse?
<mdke> about-kubuntu?
<jsgotangco> sure look at it
<jsgotangco> you might end up editing it
* jsgotangco blames himself for not taking care of kde
<rob^> ok, try that patch
<mdke> k
* mdke waits for it to arrive
<rob^> w00t! I just got my svn password!
<rob^> yay
<rob^> shall I just commit?
<mdke> yeah
<mdke> i haven't got the email yet
<rob^> ok done
<rob^> that seemed to work
<jsgotangco> rob^: 3am?
<mdke> yep
<mdke> nice one rob^ 
<rob^> jsgotangco, yes, it is here
<jsgotangco> i felt like i lost energy
<jsgotangco> ahh dont mind me
<mdke> hope that you get things sorted out mate
<rob^> I think I'm going to be late to the installfest tomorrow
<jsgotangco> wonder how pissed corey will be
<rob^> catching up on sleep
<mdke> lol
<rob^> heh
<mdke> night rob^ 
<rob^> pretty, I'd say
<jsgotangco> i'll probably roam around the woods after sfd
<rob^> we have an all day installfest at the uni
<rob^> crazy if you ask me, should have just made it 10-2 or something
<jsgotangco> im supposed to speak to a group of students
<mdke> here there is nothing happening
<jsgotangco> but hmmm
<jsgotangco> i suddenly feel like backing out
<rob^> yeah, I got to speak with uni students
<rob^> ah crap
<rob^> I forgot to video the ubuntu install
<rob^> dam it
<rob^> anyone know when I could get a video of it?
<rob^> ah fudge it
<rob^> who cares
<mdke> lol
<rob^> night mdke, jsgotangco 
<jsgotangco> night mate
<mdke> sleep well!
<mdke> thanks
<jsgotangco> rob^: good job
<rob^> thanks
<rob^> cyas
<jsgotangco> the faqguide is a good foundation doc that can be easily updated
<mdke> ok i've emailed the list
<mdke> if I got anything wrong, feel free to reply
<jsgotangco> checking
<jsgotangco> no email yet
<mdke> got the address wrong
<mdke> hang on
<mdke> resent
<mdke> -> gone
<jsgotangco> wow in just a few hours, a ton of my work went up into smoke
<jsgotangco> oh well
<jbailey> Woot, got me svn write access.
<jsgotangco> ahh
<jbailey> For now, any objection to me doing a new branch for what's going into breezy?
<jsgotangco> elmo got rob^'s account working again too
<jsgotangco> feel free
<jbailey> Then truck can be the re-arrange ground for everything else.
<jbailey> What's branches/froud ?
<jsgotangco> oh
<jsgotangco> that's sean's branch before
<jsgotangco> he doesn't come in anymore
<jsgotangco> he used to be the docbook/svn guru
<jbailey> svn cp https://docteam.ubuntu.com/repos/trunk /repos/branches/breezy
<jbailey> And then I'll mv things around until they're like we want them to be in the package?
<jsgotangco> if it makes things easier, feel free
<jbailey> Well, I just don't want to run over anything that hasn't been committed yet and such.
<jsgotangco> there's not much to commit
<jbailey> And I think that rearranging the trunk stuff will probably be invasive enough that it's best to just make it clear what's going into breezy, versus what's there going forward.
<jbailey> But if you'd like me to do this a different way, I've no objections. =)
<jsgotangco> i actually have no good idea at this point on how to do it
<jsgotangco> ahh fudge i didnt notice it was already 2am
<jsgotangco> good night anways
<mdke> jbailey, can you email to the list to explain you've done that?
<jbailey> mdke: Sure.
<jbailey> ubuntu-docs@l.u.c?
<mdke> great
<mdke> ubuntu-doc no "s"
<jbailey> Cool.
<jbailey> I should subscribe to that, too.
<jbailey> *sigh*
<mdke> jbailey, will you be working in that branch now?
<jbailey> I hate email lists. =)
<mdke> filter it into a folder and look at it when you need it :D
<jbailey> Yes, but the question is do you want to work in that branch directly for any translation updates, or should I pull them from the trunk.
<mdke> yeah that was what I was gonna say
<mdke> the translations you find in trunk now are for hoary
<jbailey> Right.
<jbailey> I tend to think that the right way to do it is to branch when you freeze the docs.
<mdke> so any new translations or updates to the (frozen) documentation should be to branch I guess 
<jbailey> Then translations all go onto the branch and the trunk can then get invasive changes without worries.
<mdke> yeah i agree
<jbailey> I'll post the suggestion to the list, and see how hard I get flamed. =)
<mdke> you've done this before ;)
<jbailey> Oh, a few times. ;)
<mdke> ok let me get these pot files into rosetta
<jbailey> docbook can be reduced to pot files?
<jbailey> Cool.
<mdke> yeah we're using gnome-doc-utils
<mdke> or rather, i decided that yesterday
<jbailey> Ahahah
<mdke> before we used a kde util
<jbailey> So how do we get the stuff out of rosetta?
<mdke> jbailey, manually
<mdke> we download the finished po files
<jbailey> Hmm.
<jbailey> Too bad, it would be nice to have some way for those to continue to get updated with the rest of the langpacks.
<mdke> well...
<mdke> no chance most translations will be finished for breezy IMO
<mdke> so updates are the way forward
<mdke> again, manually
<mdke> unless you can figure out a way with pitti to do it automatically
<mdke> afk
<mdke> jbailey, here?
<jbailey> mdke: yup
<mdke> jbailey, someone spotted a typo in the about-ubuntu, where is it found in branch so I can fix it?
<mdke> if that is possible...
<mdke> jbailey, it doesn't seem to be there
<jbailey> All I've done the the cp from the truck so far.  Had it been committed by that point?
<mdke> tbh i can't see any of the docs in there
<mdke> find doesn't show any about-ubuntu.xml
<mdke> can't see the faqguide either
<mdke> so I'll fix it in trunk
<mdke> jbailey, is that ok?
<jbailey> ./gnome/aboutubuntu/C/about-ubuntu.xml
* jbailey checks to make sure that's in the branch
<mdke> i can't see it
<mdke> ah
<mdke> i haven't checked the whole thing out yet
<mdke> it didn't download all of it >_<
<jbailey> https://docteam.ubuntu.com/repos/branches/breezy/gnome/aboutubuntu/C/
<jbailey> Ah, that would do it. =)
<mdke> jbailey, ok so is it acceptable to fix the typo in both?
<jbailey> I just used svn swtich to move over.
<jbailey> You're welcome to just do it in the branch, I think, and then we can resync once more from the branch to the trunk when whatever rearrangements have been made.
<mdke> ok
<jbailey> That way you're not chasing things all over the place.
<mdke> i'll just wait for it to download...
* mdke twiddles thumbs
<mdke> thanks jbailey 
<jbailey> Glad to help.
<mdke> jbailey, what did you think about the translation updates btw?
<mdke> as per our chat above
<jbailey> I think that there needs to be a better way.
<mdke> if you can think of a way to make it happen, that would be really cool
<jbailey> I'm all about people learning what they want, but I hate to see repetitive synchronisation tasks taken on if there's a way to automate them.
<mdke> i agree
<mdke> dunno how to do it though
<jbailey> Well...
<jbailey> The trick is probably to teach it about XML, honestly.
<jbailey> Or to have some magic capture thing that generates the xml from the pofile based on a structure and register that with the langpack generator.
<jbailey> All sorts of joyous things that are unlikely to be possible for breezy, but I'll talk to Martin this weekend or Monday to find out.
<mdke> cool thanks
<mdke> ok fixed that typo
<mdke> ajmitch, around?
<jbailey> Might be a touch early for him on a Sat morning.
<mdke> what time zone is he?
#ubuntu-doc 2005-09-15
<jbailey> mdke: He's in .nz
<prawcess> If anyone is active in here, I have a documentation question
<Burglaptop> hey all, sorry I missed the meeting, I had not internet at home
<ajmitch> hi
<Burglaptop> was most frustrating to have to internet at home
<ajmitch> how are you, anyway?
<Burglaptop> busy, and had a major blowout with my father
<ajmitch> ouch
<Burglaptop> but now relaxing with my GF at her house
<Burglaptop> he just got back from SA, couldn't understand why I wouldn't want to work for a company that has software patents and creates non-free software
<jsg_sfd> hey guys
<Madpilot> hi all
<Madpilot> did the meeting happen this morning?
<jsgotangco> sure
<jsgotangco> see emails
<Madpilot> where are the logs for -meeting kept?
<jsgotangco> err
<jsgotangco> hmmm
<robitaille> http://people.ubuntu.com/~fabbione/irclogs/
<jsgotangco> people.ubuntu.com/~fabionne
<Madpilot> thanks
<jsgotangco> ahhh
<jsgotangco> its nice to be back in school
<jsgotangco> (im in an sfd celebration)
<jsgotangco> hmmm
<jsgotangco> xorg update
<jsgotangco> reboot
<BurgLaptop> jsgotangco, so I got sponsored
<jsgotangco> good for you
<Madpilot> BurgLaptop: good to hear! anyone else from DocTeam going to make it?
<BurgLaptop> jsgotangco, did you get funded?
<jsgotangco> no
<BurgLaptop> mdke cannot get time off, robitaille likewise
<jsgotangco> me an ajmitch will start swimming tommorow
<BurgLaptop> rob didn't apply
<BurgLaptop> which leaves it down to me
<jsgotangco> you're the only docteam core
<jsgotangco> and jbailey
* BurgLaptop will try to hold the standdard high
<BurgLaptop> jsgotangco, sorry I couldn't make the meeting, no internet at my house
<jsgotangco> its ok
<jsgotangco> i wasn't really much enthusiastic about the meeting either
<jsgotangco> wasn't a good day
<BurgLaptop> ya, just read the log
<jsgotangco> 2 of my cousins died in new orleans
<BurgLaptop> ouch
<BurgLaptop> were they able to get out in time?
<jsgotangco> they're kids
<BurgLaptop> s/not able/
<BurgLaptop> that is even worse
<jsgotangco> ya
<jsgotangco> my uncle is ok but is not speaking
<jsgotangco> my dad is with him atm
<jsgotangco> well anyways
<jsgotangco> i just left last night for some beers and when i came back online, everything was chaos
<BurgLaptop> oh?
<jsgotangco> yeah
<BurgLaptop> I heard about the xml issue
<BurgLaptop> what is the web address of the svn repo again?
<Madpilot> http://doc.ubuntu.com/gnome/quicktour/quicktour.html  - and back & down from there
<BurgLaptop> not the built one, the actual repo
<Madpilot> ah, sorry. check the wiki, I set it up once and forgot about it...
<Madpilot> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocteamRepository <-- BurgLaptop
<BurgLaptop> ya, got it
<BurgLaptop> just figuring out if the latest stuff I did got committed
<BurgLaptop> it did, but the rebuild didn't work
<BurgLaptop> mdke, for some reason the quicktour is not being rebuilt on doc.ubuntu
<BurgLaptop> http://gobby.0x539.de/screenshots.html
<BurgLaptop> that is very cool
<Madpilot> You know, I just noticed that UserDocumentation has no links to any of the actual hardware pages, or any of the laptop pages...
<BurgLaptop> hmm
<BurgLaptop> that might be a bug
<BurgLaptop> I haven't done anything on the wiki is a month or so
<Madpilot> I'm going to do some editing on UserDocs in a minute - which is the best, most newbie-friendly "will my laptop work" page to link to?
<BurgLaptop> HardwareSupport
<Madpilot> thnx
<Madpilot> I'd also forgotten that there is an entire CategoryHardware...
<Madpilot> hmmm... half the pages on HardwareSupport don't seem to be listed in CategoryHardware... nice bug...
<robitaille> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/WhyIDontUbuntu    off course if you are really avoiding Ubuntu, you're most likely not going to discover that wiki page :)
<Madpilot> I wondered about that one... ;)
<Madpilot> I'm going berzerk thru the Hardware pages - lots of quick fixes & categorization, mostly
<Madpilot> OK, berserking thru Hardware is done. firing all that stuff into RecentChanges might get some other ppl working on that stuff!
<Madpilot> robitaille: your "help the printers" blog post has been good - there's about twice the # of printers there now, compared to before your post
<robitaille> yeah I saw that.....my desktop main hard drive decided to switch to read-only mode a few minutes ago.  Probably not a good sign for the hardware...
<Madpilot> robitaille: yikes. Time to start burning backup CDs, or rig a connection to your laptop!
<robitaille> that's what I'm doing.  last full backups were 6 days ago.  But I managed to copy home directories to the laptop to get the recent changes.  Now I'm rebooting with thelive Cd to see what's going with that 4-year old HD
* Madpilot needs to get more serious about backing stuff up. Or cough up for a 2nd HD and a RAID card...
<robitaille> interesting.  No error on the drive.  kernel bug?  motherboard problem?   humm...
<robitaille> I'm a bit paranoid with backups; especially since we gota digital camera, and pictures are going on that computers; multiple backups; off site copies, etc. I don't trust technology
<robitaille> nope...my drive seem to have died.  I guess there goes part of my Saturday to rebuild that machine :(
<Madpilot> well, that sucketh mightily. how much data have you (likely) lost?
<robitaille> none really.  if the backups work of course.  I guess my breezy test partition isn't backup, that's about it.    It's kind of nice to have the laptop has a 2nd computer in the house
* ajmitch has about 4 backups of his ssh & gpg keys around the house :)
<robitaille> well, the drive is alive now after a long fsck session.  Ironically, most (all?) errors found where in my svn directory of the ubuntu-docs :)
<robitaille> but I'm not sure I really trust it anymore...
<Madpilot> yeah, I've got two 4-5yr old drives beside my desk in the same state - I think they work, but no way am I trusting them with data again...
<Madpilot> robitaille: did Corey tell you he's giving a talk @ VLUG this coming Tuesday night? On Ubuntu, of course
<robitaille> he sent an email to the ubuntu-ca list about it :)
<Madpilot> I guess I should get myself on that list sometime soon...
<robitaille> very high traffic...3 emails in September
<Madpilot> I think I can handle that... ;)
<robitaille> including the one by your brother
<mdke> hi all
<mdke> nice one burgs on sponsorship
<jsgotangco> nice
<jsgotangco> man i just finished speaking to 200 people
<jsgotangco> im still at the avr
<jsgotangco> heh
<jsgotangco> hey mdke 
<mdke> :)
<mdke> how did it go?
<jsgotangco> oh it was fun
<jsgotangco> public speaking is a talent of mine
<jsgotangco> so far sfd here is going great
<ajmitch> hey jsgotangco 
<ajmitch> good to hear it's going well
* ajmitch hadn't heard of any SFD activities here tody
<mdke> nice one matey
<mdke> there are none here
<mdke> now then
<jsgotangco> thats strange
<mdke> should I make some pots for any kubuntu docs?
<jsgotangco> mdke, i'm much better now compared last night
<jsgotangco> hey ajmitch 
<ajmitch> jsgotangco: great :)
<jsgotangco> ajmitch, want to start swimming tommorow/
<mdke> good man
<ajmitch> sure
<ajmitch> I found it'd cost me $3000NZ to fly to toronto & back
<jsgotangco> ackkk
<ajmitch> so swimming should get me fit by the time we reach montreal
<mdke> my god
<ajmitch> through panama & up the east coast, then? ;)
<mdke> there must be a cheaper way than that
<ajmitch> mdke: hardly
<mdke> gosh
<ajmitch> I live in New Zealand
<Madpilot> ajmitch: and Toronto is still another flight away from Montreal...
<ajmitch> Madpilot: I know, but the website didn't let me select montreal
<jsgotangco> if we ride a boat, it would be cheaper
<mdke> even so, 3000 bucks is a lot
<ajmitch> mdke: certainly
<ajmitch> that's a months wages, before tax
<jsgotangco> oh well...
<jsgotangco> yeah
<jsgotangco> Corey Burger will uphold the Dokteam kause
<mdke> ok so my question?
<mdke> should I make some pots for any kubuntu docs?
<jsgotangco> no
<jsgotangco> its sooo spotty
<jsgotangco> i pimped the idea to riddle to  add the doks later
<jsgotangco> and let me polish it up first
<mdke> k
<mdke> bbl
<ajmitch> so what can someone like me help with?
<jsgotangco> ajmitch, the admin guide
<jsgotangco> for breezy +1
<ajmitch> ok, has that been started?
<jsgotangco> just a draft
<jsgotangco> not much content, just a TOC
<ajmitch> better than nothing
<ajmitch> admin from what perspective? sysadmin & a bunch of desktops, or server admin?
<jsgotangco> sure
<jsgotangco> sysadmin, server admin
<jsgotangco> hmm why is it "Add Applications" in the Applications menu again?
* ajmitch wonders where his svn co of the docs is 
<ajmitch> jsgotangco: sabdfl wanted it back in
<ajmitch> I saw him asking seb128 for it
<jsgotangco> on that area???
<jsgotangco> what a sucky place to put it
<jsgotangco> although in a new user mind set, that's a wow
<ajmitch> the new add applications util does look much nicer, too
<ajmitch> a bit of a mess on my box
<jsgotangco> hmmm Terminal is an accessory
<jsgotangco> oh well
<jsgotangco> heh
<ajmitch> so much junk in this menu here :)
<jsgotangco> mdke, ping?
<jsgotangco> hi all
<jbailey> jsgotangco: Hi. =)
<jsgotangco> hi jbailey sorry about last night
<jsgotangco> jbailey: you mind if i add mdz's email announcement on Breezy Preview as part of relase notes?
<jsgotangco> (the technical stuff anyways)
<mdke> sounds like a plan
<jbailey> jsgotangco: No worries.
<jbailey> Why would I mind?
<jsgotangco> you started the wiki page
<jbailey> Sure, but it's intended to be a palce where people can put things, we just didn't have a better forum.
<jbailey> Reminds me that it should get announced to ubuntu-devel
<mdke> i might do a hoary->breezy this coming week so I'll be happy to help out a bit with releasenotes
<jbailey> Sweet.
<jsgotangco> i'll do some stuff on BreezyReleaseNotes now
<jbailey> jsgotangco: Thanks!
<mdke> cool
<mdke> jsgotangco, we can integrate it into the xml version at a later stage
<jsgotangco> yes of course
<jsgotangco> shouldn't be difficult
<jbailey> Maybe make a note in the XML as to the date that you've copied the stuff from the wiki page?
<jsgotangco> we'll need devel help in a few weeks to get the known issues
<jbailey> Then you can use the revision control stuff in the wiki to figure out what  needs to be moved over.
<mdke> good plan
<jsgotangco> ok i'll just dump stuff first
<jsgotangco> and announce to list
<mdke> i still have really disappointing fonts on both my breezy systems
<jsgotangco> that good?
<mdke> yeah
<jsgotangco> argghh
<jsgotangco> i gave out a copy of breezy preview to some peers this afternoon and they seem to be teary-eyed
<jsgotangco> heh
<jsgotangco> we gave out a hundred ubuntu cds
<jsgotangco> probably twice on the opencd
<mdke> nice
<jbailey> Is teary-eyed a good thing?
<jsgotangco> yeah
<jsgotangco> heh
<jbailey> Oh good. =)
<jsgotangco> i asked a copy of linspire though
<mdke> s/asked/burnt?
<jsgotangco> yes
<jsgotangco> mdke: ping?
<jsgotangco> jbailey: ping?
<jbailey> jsgotangco: Heya
<jsgotangco> jbailey: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BreezyReleaseNotes
<jsgotangco> jbailey: just make a quick run through and i'll send to ubuntu-doc and ubuntu-devel later
<jbailey> Grammar nit, I think:
<jbailey> We hope you enjoy Ubuntu 5.10: The Breezy Badger release.
<jbailey> Should probably be:
<jbailey> We hope you enjoy the release of Ubuntu 5.10: The Breezy Badger
<jbailey> or something like that.
<jbailey> I don't think the word 'release' is part of the codename.
<jsgotangco> ahh
<jsgotangco> right
<jsgotangco> everything is still draft anwyays
<jbailey> The bug filing should probably  include a note about malone as well as bugzilla.  I don't know how to make that clear, though.
<jbailey> (Since I get it wrong on occasion...)
<jsgotangco> im told that main bugs go to bugzilla
<jsgotangco> (should)
<jbailey> Right
<jsgotangco> and universe/everything else to malone
<jbailey> But does the user know what that means?
<jsgotangco> i always subscribe to the thought that we should only limit to main
<jbailey> 'k
<jbailey> I haven't through it through.
<jsgotangco> i'll send to list later and call for help
<jsgotangco> i'll limit it to ubuntu-doc first
<jsgotangco> then once the others start editing it up, we'll open it to devel'
<jsgotangco> what you think
<jsgotangco> ?
<jbailey> But this generally looks good.  You're awesome. =)
<jbailey> Yes.
<jsgotangco> nahh
<jbailey> We need developers to start making notes soonish.
<jbailey> Esp if we want to have any hopes of getting this translated.
<jsgotangco> hmmm
<jsgotangco> ok i'll announce the draft wiki to devel in 2 days im sure there will be edits by then
<jbailey> Cool.
<Liz> good job guys
<Liz> nite 
<jsgotangco> nite
<jsgotangco> Liz
* robitaille looked at it, and didn't see obvious problems
<jsgotangco> heh im just doing a pattern with how luis did the 2.12 notes
<jsgotangco> or was it murray
<jsgotangco> hmm
<_pir> helo
<_pir> any one here can help?..
<_pir> How do I disable all the support to MS network neighborhood ? 
<highvoltage>  just use nfs?
<jsgotangco> in a pure nix environment, nfs is your answer
<_pir> I just need pure TCP-IP , and that's it... 
<_pir> is ther any "network client " (like in windows ) that is sharing something in my computer?
<jsgotangco> none
<_pir> or samba client that can be disabled?
<jsgotangco> just remove it if you don't need it
<jsgotangco> its just added there because most poeple need it
<jsgotangco> but nothing is shared by default if you mean like the hidden admin shares of a windows box
<_pir> ok, how do I remove the samba client...
<jsgotangco> _pir: this isn't a support channel but just remove smb-client or what package is that i don't even remember
<_pir> ah... 
<_pir> is there any support channel?
<jsgotangco> better ask #ubuntu
<_pir> thanks.
<karlheg> initramfs-tools: I've some patches soon; can they get into it in time?
<karlheg> One change in particular: the scripts in /etc/mkinitramfs/ are not getting copied to the initramfs right now.  I want to make that happen, plus move them to /etc/mkinitramfs/scripts/*.
<karlheg> I've learned a few things by using it and setting up some special stuff for my laptop; it requires 855resolution be run, for instance, to get full resolution from the LCD, since the BIOS does not have the mode it needs and Xorg won't go that high without the hack.  It must be run in initramfs prior to resume from suspend.
<karlheg> I've got some WIP that I can email soon; hopefully by the end of the day.
<jbailey> karlheg: Sure.  What can be accepted depends on the change.  The only featurish thing I can accept is evms or cryptroot fixes (since those are really regressions against Hoary), and the evms part I have basically done.
<jbailey> The scripts not being copied sounds like a bug, I'd love to see that.
<jbailey> I don't know what 855resolution is.
<karlheg> Another thing is that when a script is named with a '-' character in it, the dependancy stuff bombs with:
<karlheg> eval: 1: array_lucgm-mtrr-hack=: not found
<karlheg> (etc)
<karlheg> PANIC: Circular Dependancy ... : Exit.
<karlheg> Kernel Panic: Attempt to kill init.
<karlheg> You can't boot anymore without rescue media.  I will try and fix that today.  It's next up.
<karlheg> If the scripts are named with '_' instead, it works fine.
<karlheg> I think there's got to be a fail-safe like in MSDOS / Windows 98 where you can say yes or no to each of those scripts or something.
<karlheg> Maybe I can implement that.
<karlheg> Also, I want to s/version/VERSION/g for the exported variable.  I will look at the scripts that are already out there to see if it's used much yet.
<jbailey> We can't easily change the variable names at this point.
<jbailey> LTSP might depend on it, and it's a maze of stuff.
<karlheg> If so, then I'll export both for now or something.  I noticed that at least one script that is there does not use 'copy_exec', but instead uses 'install -D'.  It happens to work since the libc is all it depends on, but really should use the interface function.
<jbailey> The failsafe really ought always to work, I'd love to see patches for that.
<karlheg> I'll grab a copy and check it, plus network with them to see if they need anything else.
<jbailey> Yup, some of the scripts were written as I was developping some of those hooks, so... =)
<jbailey> Updates to those would be lovely.
<karlheg> :-)
<jbailey> I need to write a HACKING document for initramfs-tools.
<jbailey> And maximillian said he had a manpage for me for initramfs.conf(8)
<jbailey> So I should poke him for that.
<karlheg> Well, anything that uses it ought to Depend on initramfs-tools, so I should be able to get a list of packages to be checked over.
<jbailey> I've also got a new tool update-initramfs  that's used for updating them when usplash and other things are installed.
<karlheg> Great!
<karlheg> I reinstalled my laptop to get past the Breezy Xorg breakage.  I installed Hoary and did an upgrade.  It worked perfectly.
<jbailey> Nice!
<jbailey> I'm just doing my wife's machine atm.
<karlheg> ... except for the problems due to hardware eccentricities... this box does not work right with HIGHMEM support enabled; I have to hack the MTRR to get it working, since for some reason it comes up with all caching off.
<karlheg> It works fine with the 1GLOWMEM patch; makes the entire first Gb be lowmem.
<karlheg> But that's not right in the general case.
<sladen> jbailey: excellent!
<sladen> jbailey: how does that work btw?  How are you selecting which kernels to rebuild for?
<karlheg> It's a simple script that uses 'echo' to reset /proc/mtrr from init-top.
<karlheg> I've not rebuilt any kernels yet; the 1glowmem patch is out there; it's ultra simple.
<jbailey> sladen: I will by default rebuild the current one, pointed to by the /vmlinu[xz]  symlink
<jbailey> sladen: If the symlink is not present, I will rebuild the highest versioned one.
<jbailey> sladen: There are two tests:
<jbailey> 1) This utilty must have made the initramfs originally.
<jbailey> 2) The initramfs must not have changed since.
<sladen> yup, that makes sense as long;  as don't have a problem boot-strapping the initramfs in the first place
<sladen> jbailey: would it makes sense it allow it to take a parameter;  and check whether stdin is a TTY so that it can warn the user and provider a hint along with available kernels
<jbailey> Warn them of what?
<jbailey> That it's being regenerated?
<karlheg> bbl; girlfriend conversation... Will be free to work again soon.
<karlheg> Back.
<karlheg> So for test #2 there, perhaps the mkinitramfs ought to put an identifier stamp file into the image?
<karlheg> If it's the first file of the cpio somehow, perhaps it can be "magic number", iff gzip will give deterministic result... ?
<karlheg> That implies using a library rather than the cpio tool, perhaps, or to generate the cpio via a 'find' command that elides the special file, including it "by hand" as the first file, prior to the 'find' list?
<BurgLaptop> mdke, ping
<jbailey> karlheg: For test #2, I just store a sha1sum in /var/lib/initramfs-tools
<jbailey> karlheg: Far less hassle.
<karlheg> Ah, ok, so done at mkinitramfs time; right.
<karlheg> Is Matthew Garrett here?
<karlheg> Do you know his IRC handle?
<jbailey> mjg59, and he's not here.
<jbailey> Why?
<karlheg> found him in #ubuntu-devel.
<karlheg> (see you there)
<mdke> BurgLaptop, ?
<BurgLaptop> mdke, the doc.ubuntu quicktour doesn
<BurgLaptop> 't seem to have built fromt he latest svn
<mdke> oh shit yes
<mdke> the reason is that the makefile is not properly sorted
<mdke> it should remove the build/quicktour files before copying them over
<mdke> but I didn't know how to do it so I didn't set that
<BurgLaptop> ah, ok
<mdke> maybe have a word with jeffsch?
<BurgLaptop> ok
<mdke> sorry about that :/
<BurgLaptop> not a major issue right now
<mdke> k
<mdke> i'll do it manually whenever i can
<mdke> gtg
<BurgLaptop> ok
<BurgLaptop> salut robitaille 
<robitaille> bonjour BurgLaptop 
#ubuntu-doc 2005-09-16
<mpt> BurgLaptop: around?
<BurgLaptop> mpt, yes
<BurgLaptop> mpt, you there? my connect is flaky here
<mpt> BurgLaptop: yo
<mpt> BurgLaptop: Want any more help with the Quick Tour?
* mpt just woke up
<BurgLaptop> mpt, sure
<BurgLaptop> busy working through some stuff right now
<BurgLaptop> but I don't have commit access here, unfortunately
* BurgLaptop looks forward to baz
<mpt> heh
<mpt> It would be good to know how many language packs 5.10 is going to have
<BurgLaptop> a bunch
<BurgLaptop> Martin Pitt (pitti) would be the person to ask
<mpt> <h1>Ubuntu 5.10</h1>
<mpt> It&#8217;s been a whole six months since the last version of Ubuntu. But now we&#8217;re back, and better than ever.
<mpt> <h2>Ub-what?</h2>
<mpt> Ubuntu is a free, complete Linux-based operating system for your Intel, AMD, or Macintosh computer. If you want a Linux system that Just Works, or if you&#8217;re tired of Windows and feeling adventurous, give Ubuntu a spin. We think you&#8217;ll be impressed.
<BurgLaptop> where is that from?
<mpt> How about that for an introduction?
<BurgLaptop> ya
<BurgLaptop> I like it
<BurgLaptop> would be nice to work in the security support, etc.
<mpt> yes, that would probably belong in the very last section
<BurgLaptop> in the intro or the end of the doc?
<BurgLaptop> mpt, we shall have to bang our heads together at UBZ about the quicktour for 6.04
<mpt> <h2>What&#8217;s the catch?</h2>
<mpt> There is none. Ubuntu will always be free of charge. Ubuntu releases are scheduled every six months, and if you don&#8217;t want to upgrade, free security updates are provided for 18 months.
<mpt> The end of the doc
<BurgLaptop> hmm, sounds good
<BurgLaptop> can you email me a patch?
<BurgLaptop> I will apply to my local versin
<mpt> hmmm, I could do that
<BurgLaptop> geez evince is fast
<mpt> Have you measured it against Acrobat Reader?
<BurgLaptop> not on the same mahcine
<BurgLaptop> going to do that now
<BurgLaptop> 2 secs to load http://www.can-tf1.org/Documents/Training2005.pdf
<BurgLaptop> from the click in epip
<BurgLaptop> grr, this bloody wireless here stalls on big downloads
<BurgLaptop> even a forty page doc took 2 secs
<mpt> Have you noticed that it's not actually true that Ubuntu "includes the very best in ... accessibility infrastructure"?
<mpt> The accessibility stuff isn't installed by default
<BurgLaptop> why do you say that?
<mpt> "The 'gok' package must be installed in order to get on-screen keyboard support, and the 'gnopernicus' package must be installed for screenreading and magnifying capabilities."
<BurgLaptop> yes
<BurgLaptop> it is avaible
<mpt> yeah, available != included
<mpt> I suppose you could make an argument that installed by default !== included
<BurgLaptop> ya
<BurgLaptop> it is easily available
<mpt> Synaptic isn't easy
<BurgLaptop> there is a bug open for making that easy, ala the instlalation of nfs/samba support
<BurgLaptop> just a sec
<mpt> Anyway, this serves as a useful demonstration of how giving software packages stupid names is all fun and games until someone loses an eye (or two eyes, or fine motor control, or whatever)
<BurgLaptop> http://bugzilla.ubuntu.com/show_bug.cgi?id=6386
<mpt> That "Enable assistive technologies" checkbox shouldn't even exist
<mpt> Megasyllabic geekery
<mpt> but yeah, automatic installation would be nice
<BurgLaptop> create a bof for ubz
<mpt> HumaneAccessibilityConfiguration
<BurgLaptop> already exists?
<BurgLaptop> ugh, I hate acrobat reader
<BurgLaptop> it is ugly
<mpt> No, I was just proposing a name for it
<BurgLaptop> sounds good to me
<mpt> Accessibility prefs are perhaps the worst example of reason-based prefs conflicting with subject-based prefs
<BurgLaptop> I will try the speed tests with acroread at home, when I have a constant and good net connection
<mpt> hmm, I could even do it myself
* BurgLaptop needs to create a DeathofSystemTools spec
<BurgLaptop> mpt, got a patch for me?
<mpt> getting there
<mpt> Meh, Synaptic won't let me add Multiverse
<mpt> I check the checkbox and click "OK" and nothing happens
* BurgLaptop wonders why the free software magazines website is using gifs
<BurgLaptop> that dialog needs some work in dapper
<BurgLaptop> I opened a bug for it, but there is some future-proofing that needs to be done
<mpt> ohhhh, now I see
<mpt> clicking "Add" opens a dialog entitled "Edit Repository..."
<mpt> that's got to be a bug, surely
<mpt> argh, there are two "Edit Repository..." dialogs
<mpt> and neither of them are for adding a repository
* mpt cries
<BurgLaptop> mpt, welcome to synaptic
<BurgLaptop> mpt, the future proofing that needs to be done is the adding of custom repos when the lp autobuilding stuff starts
<rob^> hi BurgLaptop 
<rob^> no doubt you have heard about the xml thing
<mpt> Still, I see numerous reviews of various distros claiming that Synaptic is really easy to use
<mpt> So it must be a big improvement on what came before :-)
<rob^> what are we talking about?
<rob^> mpt, what dpackage?
<rob^> the terminal based one
<mpt> I don't know
<mpt> hi carthik
<carthik> Hi, the https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuBelowZero page says "Monday 30 October" ... 30th happens to be a sunday .. Would've edited it if I had know which "Monday" or "30th" was intended :)
<carthik> hi mpt, how's life? Dont blog much lately?
<mpt> yeah
<mpt> Jorn Barger said something like
<mpt> the more interesting your life is, the less time you have to spend on a Weblog
<mpt> :-)
<carthik> mpt, true, true :) - but that is also true of mechanical lives, where nothing new happens
<mpt> I've been pretty crazily busy the past few months
<carthik> Was afraid that your life might have taken on a mechanical tone -- glad to know that's not the case :)
<mpt> a mechanical tone?
<mpt> oh, as in utter routine
<carthik> mpt: I understand that -- I have been so too.. trying to get out of the university (with the promised degree) 
<mpt> ah, I've been there
<mpt> In my last year at uni, one of my tutors said "You still here??"
<carthik> all but stopped working on/for WordPress :|
<carthik> I might be in Montreal around the time of UBZ, and so was checking the page when I found the error... Please tend to it, if it's not too much of an ask.
<carthik> I have to get going.. later mpt, folks!!
<mpt> "suspend your laptop to save power"???
* mpt reports that as a bug
<corey> mpt, even with free software magazine, which is quite heavy on the images, evince still takes 2 secs to start and renders almost instantly
<mpt> and acrobat?
<corey> not been able to pull it down, due to flaky internet
<corey> mpt, but I can tell you this, acrobat with IE 6 on my machine is much much slower, and it freezes the browser while loading the program
<mpt> aha
* mpt thinks of a place to find large complex PDFs
<HrdwrBoB> that's because acrobat reader is a giant bloated piece of crap
<mpt> yes, well, other-platform comparisons aren't very relevant to Ubuntu
<corey> I went for very graphic heavy pdfs
<corey> I need a good legal one, that will be 200+ pages
<corey> groklaw might have one\
<mpt> 46-page design magazine in about 4.8 seconds
<mpt> Acrobat Reader: about 2.1 seconds
<mpt> ah well, Evince should be faster by 1.0 :-)
<mpt> hey, hang on a minute
<mpt> In Evince all the text is gibberish :-)
<mpt> er, :-(
<corey> mpt, which doc?
<mpt> The "free trial issue" at http://indesignmag.com/idm/
<corey> let me pull it down and file a bug if necessary
<mpt> I'm just about to do that
<corey> poppler in the freedesktop bugzilla
<mpt> *All* rendering bugs are poppler bugs?
<corey> yes
<mpt> right-o
<corey> same with epiphany and gecko
<mpt> My flatmate fixed a poppler crasher yesterday :-)
<corey> who is your flatmate?
<mpt> Johan Dahlin
<mpt> bug 4402
<ajmitch> mpt: when are you back in NZ?
<mpt> ajmitch: December 21st, probably
<ajmitch> great, planning to be at LCA?
<corey> mpt, where are you living currently?
<mpt> ajmitch: yep
<mpt> corey: So Carlos
<corey> mpt, Brazil?
<corey> mpt, did you move there to be closer to the LP team?
<mpt> yes, Brazil
<mpt> Even before it was decided that the Launchpad sprint would be here, kiko had invited me to stay for a few months
<mpt> so I just stayed on after the sprint
<corey> cool
<Burglaptop> you know, our topic is kind of useless
<mpt> you noticed :-)
<Madpilot> the channel's topic?
<mpt> "This channel tries to make its way to the sea"
<Burglaptop> ok, external mouse breaks horrible
<ajmitch> how horrible?
<Burglaptop> zoomign around the screen for while not moving horrible
<Burglaptop> is there any way in xchat to open 2 different servers by default, with 2 different channel listings for each server?
<Burglaptop> ie, both freenode and gimp.net
<ajmitch> sure
<ajmitch> I used to have 5 servers with their own channel lists
* ajmitch is currently only on 4 :)
<Burglaptop> oh wait, laser mouse + shiny surface equals mouse go crazy
<Burglaptop> ajmitch, how?
<ajmitch> have each server set to autoconnect, and for each, have a channel list 
<ajmitch> eg #ubuntu-motu,#ubuntu-devel,#ubuntu-laptop,#ubuntu-mono
<ajmitch> I think you can't have spaces separating
<Burglaptop> ah, now I see
<mpt> Burglaptop: ok, one thing that's always confused me
<Burglaptop> mpt, yes?
<mpt> Burglaptop: When I make a diff, should I give the original file first, or the modified one?
<mpt> to the diff command
<ajmitch> original, then modified
<Burglaptop> mpt, and do a diff -u
* ajmitch uses -Naur when comparing directories, but that's to get all files, including new ones
<mpt> corey.burger @ gmail?
<Burglaptop> yes
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-doc:Burglaptop] :  Ubuntu Doc Team - general discussion - backlog at http://people.ubuntu.com/~fabbione/irclogs | We are string frozen for Breezy release | Projects on http://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocteamProjects | SVN - shttps://docteam.ubuntu.com/repos | Remember the Ubuntu community code of conduct @ http://www.ubuntulinux.org/community/conduct first.
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-doc:Burglaptop] :  Ubuntu Doc Team - general discussion - backlog at http://people.ubuntu.com/~fabbione/irclogs | We are string frozen for Breezy release | Projects on http://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocteamProjects | SVN - https://docteam.ubuntu.com/repos | Remember the Ubuntu community code of conduct @ http://www.ubuntulinux.org/community/conduct first.
<Burglaptop> there, an actual useful topic
<mpt> Burglaptop: sent
<Burglaptop> mpt, ok
<Burglaptop> mpt, don't worry, the screenshots will be zoomed in on the useful feature
<Burglaptop> mpt, that diff is a bunch of gibberish
<mpt> ?
<Burglaptop> grr
<Burglaptop> ok, something froze my machine
<Burglaptop> mpt, you diff was gibberish
<Burglaptop> mpt, can you just send my your whole quicktour?
<mpt> ok
<mpt> Burglaptop: sent
<Burglaptop> mpt, thanks
<Burglaptop> mpt, I should be able to commit it tomorrow evening (24 hours from now)
<Burglaptop> bloody work
<Burglaptop> mpt, did you edit this on a mac?
<mpt> no, gedit
<Burglaptop> hmm
<Burglaptop> it wants to replace the whole bloody doc
<ajmitch> tab/space?
<Burglaptop> I can fix it
<ajmitch> if so, you can try diff -w (ignore whitespace)
<Burglaptop> ajmitch, that did it
(Burglaptop/#ubuntu-doc) ok, epiphany bookmarks are major cool
(robitaille/#ubuntu-doc) how?
<Burglaptop> you add them and you can type on the address bar to search through them
<Burglaptop> full typeahead
<robitaille> I keep thinking I should try epiphany; people who like it seems to really like it as their browser
<Burglaptop> I decided to use it on my laptop full time
<Burglaptop> there are a lot of things that drive me nuts, but then so does FF
<Burglaptop> they are just different from FF
<Burglaptop> but the guys in #epiphany on gimp.net are extremely helpful people
<Burglaptop> they are also working on adding a feature where if you click on an rss feed, it can add it to your feedreader (liferea and one other supported right now, blam is coming)
* robitaille has enough rss feed to check...don't need new ones :)
<robitaille> is the default page for epiphany a new one or an old one? file:///usr/share/ubuntu-artwork/home/index.html
<robitaille> the fonts are really small on my laptop for that page
<rob^> hi
<Madpilot> OK, that was strange - the Rolling Stones album I'm playing right now - on the computer - has a drum sound that *exactly* like one of Ubuntu's notification noises...
<Madpilot> I was wondering what was going horribly wrong on this machine, for a minute!
<rob^> heh
<rob^> everyone have a good sfd?
<Burglaptop> well, the SFD wiki is being hammered right now
<rob^> ah
<rob^> we all forgot to bring cameras
<Madpilot> Burglaptop: anything more need to be done on the QT tonight?
<Burglaptop> Madpilot, not currently
<Madpilot> OK
* Burglaptop is wondering when he will next be able to work on the QT
<Burglaptop> rob^, have you seen the latest menu changes? Does the quickguide need an fixes?
<rob^> there was only a couple I think
<Burglaptop> rob^, serpentine, terminal, root terminal and file browser
<Burglaptop> the only one that I know we refer to is terminal
<rob^> add/remove applications too
<Burglaptop> ya
<rob^> hey, is the quickguide going to still ship with ubuntu?
<Burglaptop> quicktour? yes
<rob^> yeah
<rob^> did you get the information from the meeting the other day?
<Burglaptop> about xml?
<rob^> yes
<Burglaptop> we are not docbook as source anyway
<rob^> I know
<rob^> but they are bitching about not being able to translate html
<Burglaptop> if it cannot be translated through rosetta, that hurts, but I am not going to shift to docbook at this point
<rob^> yes, thats the problem, I had to fix up all the xml in the FAQ Guide to view properly in Yelp
<rob^> and you may find that they won't want to ship the quicktour because it is in html
<rob^> it was suggested to redo it in xml
<Burglaptop> the quicktour is a marketing doc, not a help doc
<Burglaptop> the difference is subtle, and those on top really love it (sabdfl, jdub)
<rob^> I know
<rob^> yes, however jdub and others were in here telling us that html is no good
<Burglaptop> for help docs yes
<rob^> for translation
<Burglaptop> the quicktour is not primarily meant to be read on an Ubuntu machine
<rob^> yeah
<rob^> so how will it be distributed? via the web site?
<Burglaptop> I am working on the html to pdf issues
<Burglaptop> the website is another place
<Burglaptop> anywhere and everywhere we need to talk about Ubuntu is my goal
<rob^> ok
<rob^> it could probably replace some of the stuff in the wiki too, such as UbuntuHowCome etc
<Burglaptop> ya
<Madpilot> we were talking about a drastic re-write of UbuntuHowCome at one point, weren't we?
<rob^> well, lost intrest, and the quickguide will be better than it
<Burglaptop> that started
<rob^> + the faq guide takes up too much of my time
<Burglaptop> maybe just replace the text with links to other places
<jdub> how is the tour going?
* jdub would like to help a bit, particularly before fridge/final launch
<ajmitch> hello jdub 
<rob^> jbailey, you around?
<Burglaptop> jdub, pretty good. mpt and I have been hacking tonight, but I don't have commit access to the svn repo
<Burglaptop> here
<jdub> heh
* Burglaptop waits for baz
<Burglaptop> jdub, I will be to commit what I have done tomorrow night
<rob^> Burglaptop, if you email it to me I can do it for you
<Burglaptop> rob^, can do
<rob^> rstoffers@gmail.com
<Burglaptop> rob^, here it is
<rob^> ok hang on
<jdub> rob^: how was your sfd?
* Burglaptop is sad that his sfd day was spent at home hacking on the quicktour
<rob^> jdub, good, one thing I did notice that after I gave a presentation on ubuntu everyone wanted windows blown away instead of dual-booting
* ajmitch didn't know of any sfd activities in dunedin
<rob^> jdub, yourself?
<rob^> Burglaptop, where does the quickguide live?
<jdub> heh
<jdub> fun, handed out hundreds of CDs
<Burglaptop> jdub, where were you?
<jdub> did a talk on ubuntu at the installfest
<jdub> sydney, as always
<rob^> the new ubuntu cd covers look nice
<rob^> we gave away about 50, which is good for townsville
<jdub> slightly smaller market ;)
<rob^> yep
<jdub> http://www.slug.org.au/gallery/sfd05
<rob^> heh, we all forgot cameras :(
<ajmitch> that's a shame
<rob^> hehe yep
<rob^> jdub, did you all take to the streets?
<jdub> rob^: we had four street teams, and a bunch at the uni for the installfest
<rob^> ah, we only had about 6 members, all flat out doing installs or presentations
<rob^> but then, there is only like 10 regulars
<rob^> is there like a "minumum requirements" page on the wiki?
<Burglaptop> my local LUG is more interested in drinking beer than promoting linux
<Burglaptop> is quite sad
<rob^> I slept like a baby afterwards
<ajmitch> the local LUG has sort of dried up here
<Madpilot> rob^: I don't think so; I had a good look thru CatHardware last night & day before as well. A "min hardware" page is a good idea...
<Burglaptop> ajmitch, it really only needs one person to kick start it
<rob^> it was just a question bought up a fair few times during the day
<rob^> I ended up having to use vector on a 10 year old laptop :)
<Burglaptop> anything less than 256 is going to hurt
<Burglaptop> though I have used Gnome 2.8 on 64
<Burglaptop> anything less than 600mhz is also going to hurt, but down as far as 400 is probable
<rob^> yeah, thats kind of what I thought
<highvoltage> whohoo! sfd discussions.
<Burglaptop> jdub, were most of your installs ubuntu?
<highvoltage> here's some of our cape town photos: http://www.go-opensource.org/gallery/SFD2005_CapeTown
<Burglaptop> highvoltage, we are really ontopic in here
<highvoltage> Burglaptop: :)
<jdub> Burglaptop: i can't remember anything else ;)
<rob^> heh we only got one green sfd tshirt between us all
<highvoltage> we didn't have any official sfd t-shirts, but at least we had go-open source t-shirts.
<rob^> the ballons were decent though, my 3 yr old son loved em'
<highvoltage> i think i gave out more than a thousand copies of the opencd. felt very tired by 2pm :)
<rob^> I was hacking the faq until 3 the night before, then up at 7 
<Burglaptop> rob^, ouch, the bloody xml issue?
<highvoltage> geez
<rob^> I was a linux-installing zombie on the day
<rob^> Burglaptop, yep
* jdub can't wait to meet a freedom toaster in the flesh
<ajmitch> Burglaptop: there are people around for the LUG, but they're busy planning LCA :)
<jdub> highvoltage: you in any of the photos?
<rob^> mmm flesh...
<Madpilot> isn't it supposed to be "Mmmmm brainssss..."? ;)
<highvoltage> jdub: yep: http://www.go-opensource.org/gallery/SFD2005_CapeTown/IMG_0500_copy
<rob^> yes, but someone mentioned flesh, and that is almost as tasty!
<highvoltage> some would say the way i stare at that openCD is unhealthy :P
<highvoltage> i took lots more photo's, but my camera's cable is at work, i'll upload them on monday.
<jdub> mmm, watch out for the lasers
<jdub> http://www.go-opensource.org/gallery/SFD2005_CapeTown/IMG_0669_2_copy
<jdub> ha ha
<rob^> hey Burglaptop where does the quicktour live in svn?
<highvoltage> heh. nice photo.
<Burglaptop> rob^, gnome/quicktour
<Burglaptop> jdub, what is the latest news on new theme/icons/etc. for Breezy?
<Burglaptop> Madpilot, given that you, robitaille and myself constitute the highest concentration of Ubuntu members in Canada, it is sad we did nothing for SFD
<highvoltage> :(
<robitaille> next year!
<highvoltage> :)
<Burglaptop> indeed, if I am still in Victoria
<highvoltage> http://www.go-opensource.org/gallery/SFD2005_CapeTown/IMG_0589_copy
<Madpilot> Burglaptop: next year!
<highvoltage> the guy with the red t-shirt in that photo is amazing.
<highvoltage> he volunteered for the tuxlab project for more than a year.
<highvoltage> jeremy would have still volunteered if we didn't hire him. a real free software proponent.
<robitaille> we just need to convince Jerome to move to Victoria, then we'll have our own loco team
<highvoltage> i think a problem that many of us have, is we want to do everything, and do it now.
<rob^> hmm forgot the log message on commit
<Madpilot> robitaille: should we set up a LoCoTeamVictoriaBC wiki page? ;)
<rob^> Burglaptop, done
<rob^> at 1775
<highvoltage> and we end up being rushed and under pressure and end up doing a lot of thing half way. next year i'm going to be much more focussed that this year.
<Burglaptop> rob^, just saw it thanks
<Burglaptop> Madpilot, you can pluck the latest QT out of svn now. jdub, you as well
<Madpilot> what the heck? the latest QT out of the SVN won't display properly here. odd text all over the place...
<Burglaptop> hmm
<Madpilot> "<<<<<<< .mine" - lots of these all over, and other cruft
<Burglaptop> grr
<Burglaptop> jdub, do you have commit access to our repo?
<rob^> ?
<rob^> mine is ok
<Madpilot> never mind
<Madpilot> I deleted and re-svn up'd, and got a clean copy. Not sure what went wrong at my end... sorry.
<Burglaptop> jdub, nev mind
<Madpilot> hmmm... all the entries below "Introducing OpenOffice.org 2" are going to have to have their images swapped to the other side
<Madpilot> aside from that formatting detail, it looks good.
<Burglaptop> ya, there are things to be fixed up
<Burglaptop> jdub, minor bug with g-a-i, needs to have a seperator above it
<jdub> Burglaptop: easy fix, just let seb know
<rob^> bye all
<Burglaptop> jdub, ok
<Madpilot> check this out: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/
<Madpilot> the long blank space URL... delete?
<Burglaptop> Madpilot, that is a unicode url with some asian language on it
<Madpilot> really? displays a lot of blank space in Hoary w/ Opera. Just a sec, will try FF
<Madpilot> and I get a load of odd symbols in FF. does it work better in Breezy?
<Burglaptop> yes
<Burglaptop> even xchat gives me the unicode
<Madpilot> cool
<Burglaptop> does FF give you anything?
<Madpilot> not really; I get a load of the little square 'default' font things
<Madpilot> but I've removed a lot of the non-Western fonts from this install
<Burglaptop> that would do it
<Burglaptop> well, I need to crash, need to work tomorrow
<Madpilot> although a lot of websites still display OK - the BBC, for example
<Madpilot> good night
<jsgotangco> hey all
<Madpilot> hi jsgotangco
<jsgotangco> hey i saw you editing some wiki pages heh
<Madpilot> yeah
<Madpilot> doing bits and pieces of CatHardware, after my big push on that a few nights ago...
<jsgotangco> yeah that's great
<jsgotangco> have you seen the draft release notes?
<Madpilot> not yet
<jsgotangco> im gonna take a nap
<jsgotangco> brb
<Madpilot> need sleep. back later, all
<sivang> hi all
<sivang> is anybody attached here?
<ajmitch> attached?
<sivang> ajmitch: yeah, as in screen -rf
<sivang> s/-rf/-rd/
<sivang> :)
* ajmitch uses screen -rUx, actually :)
<sivang> anyway, do you think #15017 deserves a release note ?
<sivang> (for sake of the unsuspecting newb)
<ajmitch> oh that one bit me with my laptop recently :)
* ajmitch forgot to make a /boot :)
<sivang> well, we need to warn people out of it, at least , don't you think?
<sivang> (I was able to restore my grub configuration easily, but what about the windows trialing user? :) )
<ajmitch> yeah
<segfault> is the doc stuff ready to be translated?
<highvoltage> segfault: each time i see your name i think that irssi crashed or something!
<segfault> haha
<segfault> :)
<rob^> segfault, yes
<rob^> only the faq guide
<segfault> through rosetta?
<rob^> it will be
<rob^> I think jbailey is taking care of it
<rob^> we are releasing as xml to make it easier on you guys too
<segfault> where can i retrieve it?
<rob^> its in our svn repo
<rob^> svn checkout https://docteam.ubuntu.com/repos/trunk ubuntu-doc
<rob^> however thats the whole 200mb thing
<rob^> generic/faqguide/C/ are the files, plus the are others like the licences and generic entities (not sure if you need those for rosetta as I'm not sure on the process for getting it there)
<segfault> getting it
<segfault> how to convert a xml to html/pdf?
<segfault> found it. :P
<mdke> segfault, the docs will be available to translate from rosetta hopefully tomorrow
<segfault> no problem, i already checked it out
<segfault> but it'll better to have it in rosetta, 
<segfault> does db2pdf works well?
<mdke> i don't know
#ubuntu-doc 2005-09-17
<mdke> but the docs are built and you can see them previewed on our server at http://doc.ubuntu.com
<segfault> i know, i was just playing around with the docs after translated
<mdke> --> bed
<Madpilot> hi robitaille
<robitaille> hello Madpilot 
<Madpilot> who's in charge of the actual Ubuntu.com website?
<Madpilot> it was just mentioned over on #ubuntu that the Download page puts Breezy first, and Hoary right off the bottom of the screen
<Madpilot> (even on a 1280x1024 screen like mine...) which is not very cool.
<Madpilot> http://www.ubuntu.com/download/
<_tshah> Lol, most people will probably end up downloading the "preview" by mistake
<Madpilot> exactly
<_tshah> On that note, http://www.kubuntu.org/ has some issues too
<_tshah> First of all, the "Download" link is at the bottom
<Madpilot> what do you expect from a bunch of KDE users? :)
* Madpilot ducks, quickly...
<_tshah> Second of all, the "Install CD" and the "Live CD" are the same link
<Madpilot> _tshah: that's because they're all on the same mirrors together
<_tshah> Yeah, so why give the user two links?
<Madpilot> to point out that they're different things, I guess
<_tshah> Yeah, but then the user has to "decide" again after they click on it
<Madpilot> true
<Madpilot> re-organizing the servers & mirrors is going to be a post-Breezy thing, though...
<_tshah> based on this: http://releases.ubuntu.com/kubuntu/   I don't know if there will be any large re-structuing
<Madpilot> yeah
<Madpilot> I have no idea if there is a server/mirror re-org planned - I rather doubt it - but there is the LiveCD vs InstallCD thing you've noticed
<Riddell> _tshah: if you want to play around with the layout of kubuntu.org that would be great, been on my TODO list for ages
<_tshah> ok, gg; see ya
<robitaille> Madpilot,  in the past I have filled bug reports against the web site in the bugzilla
<robitaille> Henrik Nilsen Omma was involved for a while with the web site...not sure if that's still the case
<Madpilot> robitaille: OK, thanks
<jsgotangco> hey all
<Madpilot> hi
<jsgotangco> hey Burgundavia 
<Burgundavia> salut jsgotangco 
<Madpilot> hi Burgundavia
<Burgundavia> salut Madpilot 
<Madpilot> all ready for your VLUG talk on Tuesday evening?
<Burgundavia> nope
<Burgundavia> need to write my talk tonight
<Madpilot> !
<Burgundavia> I already know what I am going to talk about, just need to write it down
<Madpilot> doing Powerpointy stuff to?
<Burgundavia> ya
<Madpilot> so you're swearing about Impress all over again, I bet...
<jsgotangco> Impress 2.0 is actually good
<Burgundavia> indeec
<Burgundavia> d
<jsgotangco> the problem is that it still cannot handle transparencies well
<jsgotangco> but that is an evince issue
<Burgundavia> well, looks like I have tomorrow night as well
<Burgundavia> as gaming just got cancelled
* Burgundavia decides he has no brain space for ubuntu-users
<jsgotangco> Burgundavia, have you seen the draft release notes
<Burgundavia> jsgotangco, haven't had time to look at them
<jsgotangco> ah yes
<Burgundavia> jsgotangco, ?
<jsgotangco> you've been busy
<Burgundavia> work is eating a huge amount of my time
<Burgundavia> but I have three days off later this week
<Burgundavia> I hate to delay the quicktour until then, but I don't see any other optin
<jsgotangco> im gonna make sure these release notes get done by this week
<Burgundavia> cool
<jeffsch> jsgotangco: ping
<Burgundavia> salut jeffsch 
<Burgundavia> jeffsch, you going to UBZ?
<jsgotangco> jeffsch, hi
<jeffsch> Burgundavia: nope. no time. no money.
<jeffsch> :(
<Burgundavia> ah
<jsgotangco> jeffsch, pong?
<jeffsch> jsgotangco: i didn't get a chance to look at the makefile for edubuntu
<jeffsch> actually, that's not exactly true...
<jsgotangco> jeffsch, no worries i'm trying to hack up something similar to our giant makefile
<jeffsch> I looked into it, but decided that with the upcoming switch to baz, and the probable pruning of our repos, that it would be a waste of time right now
<jsgotangco> hmm yelp doesn't do footnotes
<jsgotangco> grrr
<Burgundavia> mdke, ping
<jeffsch> Burgundavia: are you the only one from docteam going to ubz?
<Burgundavia> jeffsch, currently yes
<jeffsch> did you get sponsored because you are on docteam, or because you are on laptop testing?
<Burgundavia> everything I have done, docteam, laptop, bugstuff, etc.
<Burgundavia> and I live close to the location
<jeffsch> if you call "on the other side of the country" close :)
<Burgundavia> hey, closer than just about everybody else on the docteam
<Madpilot> close by the standards of, say, jsgotangco or all you Australians & Kiwis... ;)
<jeffsch> london-montreal is prolly the same travel time as victoria-montreal
<jeffsch> i'm in vancouver
<Madpilot> probably
<Madpilot> ah, OK, cool. we should organize a Left-Coast-Ubuntu-Meet at some point...
<jsgotangco> for some reason beagle in preview doesn't work
<jeffsch> i installed breezy the other day
<jeffsch> everything is nice, except the fonts are weird
<jdub> Madpilot: and pitch for a BBB Tour visit!
<jeffsch> and open office help doesn't work
<Burgundavia> jdub, would you fly into Victoria?
<robitaille> the planes are small, but fly quite often between Victoria-Vancouver and Victoria-Seattle
<jsgotangco> jeffsch, strange mine works fine
<robitaille> jsgotangco,  beagle?  I was going to try to install it later tonight on my laptop.  
<jsgotangco> robitaille, it must be because i missedsomething
<jsgotangco> let me check
<jsgotangco> it used to work in previous builds
<robitaille> do you get any error?
<jsgotangco> nope let me run best in a terminal
<jsgotangco> wonder if beagle still require mono-assemblies-base
* robitaille is installing beagle
* robitaille has just noticed that Breezy is his first ever unix/linux in 15 years  that doesn't come with /bin/mail installed by default
<jsgotangco> hmmm it still doesn'r run
<jsgotangco> it seems my beagled is looping something
<Burgundavia> jdub, does the BBB tour need ubuntu members?
<robitaille> jsgotangco,  is this something like this?  https://launchpad.net/malone/bugs/2176
<jsgotangco> yeah
<jsgotangco> exactly
<jsgotangco> let me check if i need to update
<robitaille> jsgotangco,  I have updated to 0.13, and now I get: "Unhandled Exception: System.DllNotFoundException: glib-2.0"
<jsgotangco> gahhh this thing used to work
<jsgotangco> now it doesnt even have the notification icon of best
<robitaille> I do have the icon, but beagled doesn't run which makes it pretty useless
<jsgotangco> http://www.flickr.com/photos/jsgotangco/
<jsgotangco> some local sfd pics
<Burgundavia> jsgotangco, yours photos are copyrighted. Going to free them?
<jsgotangco> hmm
<jsgotangco> i didnt notice
<jsgotangco> i just upload stuff
<Burgundavia> Madpilot, ping
<Madpilot> Burgundavia: pong?
<Burgundavia> Madpilot, can you send me your /etc/xdg/menus/applications.menu
<Madpilot> huh?
<Burgundavia> I need a hoary version
<Burgundavia> that is a file
<Madpilot> I know, just a sec, digging for it
<Madpilot> cool, it's actually an XML file of some sort...
<Burgundavia> is the freedesktop standard
<Madpilot> yeah, saw the DTD
<Madpilot> coming via gmail now
<Madpilot> gone
<Madpilot> what do you want a Hoary menu config for?
<Burgundavia> playing with menus, but it turns out the issue is deeper than that
<Madpilot> thought you weren't running Hoary on either machine?
<Burgundavia> I wiped hoary when I reinstalled Breezy preview
<jsgotangco> yeah i loved the moment i did that as well
<Madpilot> thought so. so why do you need a Hoary menu file?
<Burgundavia> basically I wanted to add a seperator between the last submenu and add programs
<Burgundavia> turns out that is not in the .menu file
<Burgundavia> it is a code change
<Madpilot> a seperator like Hoary has between the apps & the Run Apps entry?
<Burgundavia> yes
<Madpilot> seperators are treated differently by Gnome? too bad...
<Burgundavia> no, it is there is no support in the spec for it
<jsgotangco> http://doc.ubuntu.com/gnome/about-ubuntu/C/
<jsgotangco> what the heck is this
<jsgotangco> it has <subtitle> visible
<jsgotangco> guys
<Burgundavia> yes'
<Burgundavia> no idea
<jsgotangco> is the po file already given out
<jsgotangco> mdke nested it inside <title>
<jsgotangco> that's the problem
<jsgotangco> now the problem is that if the pot files are already out
<jsgotangco> we have a borked document
<jsgotangco> and there are still some typos
<jsgotangco> oh well
<jsgotangco> i'm going to fix this
<Burgundavia> night all
<jsgotangco> mdke, alive?
<Madpilot> damn, I just realized that commenting stuff out in the wiki still leaves gaps in the regular text...
<Madpilot> stuff doesn't just vanish entirely like with HTML comments...
<jsgotangco> oh it still eats up white space
<Madpilot> yup
<Madpilot> commenting out a line between two existing lines will leave a line of white space behind :(
<Madpilot> DuncanLithgow has done a nice re-org of parts of UserDocumentation
<jsgotangco> ive noticed that with the wiki reports
<jsgotangco> heh
<jsgotangco> he did some stuff over the weekend
<Madpilot> a lot of stuff, actually
<mdke> jsgotangco, here?
<jsgotangco> mdke, hi did the pots got sent already?
<mdke> yes
<jsgotangco> oh well
<mdke> jsgotangco, where did you fix those things? in trunk?
<jsgotangco> yes
<mdke> gah
<jsgotangco> oops?
<mdke> jsgotangco, the gnu/linux was fixed in the breezy branch already
<mdke> can you do the other fix in the branch please?
<jsgotangco> the branch is where we work now?
<mdke> jsgotangco, it is where to do post-freeze fixes yes
<jsgotangco> you'll still have unfixed tags from the pots
<mdke> eh?
<jsgotangco> although that is just a minor edit
<jsgotangco> <subtitle> is supposed to be after <title>
<mdke> can you fix it in the branch please?
<jsgotangco> sure
<jsgotangco> but like i said
<jsgotangco> you'll still be fixing pots after
<jsgotangco> (cant do anything about it anymore)
<mdke> i don't have a problem with making a new pot
<mdke> just this once ;)
<jsgotangco> i thought you sent it already?
<jsgotangco> where is your branch?
<mdke> it is in branches/breezy
<mdke> there are some emails about it on the mailing list
<rob^> hi mdke 
<mdke> hi rob^ 
<jsgotangco> its ok i got it now
<rob^> are we waiting now for translations to be done before the package is released
<jsgotangco> yes
<rob^> ah, thought so
<jsgotangco> just some cleanup
<jsgotangco> hmm i thought the branch was small
<jsgotangco> it seems jbailey added everything?
<mdke> jsgotangco, yes, i think he will remove some things later
<rob^> all 200mb?
<jsgotangco> nice
<rob^> ok, bye again, got to get ready for work tomorrow (and get some sleep)
<jsgotangco> night
<jsgotangco> its so dark here already
<rob^> night jsgotangco, mdke 
<mdke> good night
<jsgotangco> kde upstream?
<jsgotangco> gahh
<jsgotangco> no wonder our svn is so big
<mdke> is that duncan chap on irc?
<jsgotangco> no idea he's been doing a lot of editing...
<mdke> yeah
<mdke> jsgotangco, did you do the fix yet?
<jsgotangco> dude im still downloading the branch
<jsgotangco> im bandwidth challenged :)
<mdke> ah
<mdke> i'll do it
<jsgotangco> thanks
<mdke> done
<jsgotangco> is the duncan dude adding crack?
<mdke> not sure
<mdke> he makes quite major changes without commenting them though
<mdke> i'm off for a while
<jsgotangco> man he seems to be updating 3 pages at the same time
<segfault> so, lets translate!
<poningru> anyone around?
<poningru> suggestion for quick tour
<segfault> about-ubuntu.xml:43(title)
<segfault> Partipate in Ubuntu
<poningru> under Great Software and under software update
<segfault> shouldn't it be "Participate"?
<poningru> err Automatic Update
<poningru> Ubuntu will display, review and install them easily, ensuring all your software is up to date and secure.
<poningru> in the current version there is no 'all'
<poningru> Ubuntu will display, review and install them easily, ensuring your software is up to date and secure.
<mdke> segfault, we have fixed that bug
<mdke> poningru, better speak to Burgundavia and/or mail a patch to the list
<poningru> mdke: k
<segfault> mdke: nice.
<jjesse> just to refresh my memory i should be making changes to kubuntu docs in branches/breezy? or in trunk?
<talat> hi all
<talat> i want to help edubuntu documention 
<talat> how can i start ?
<segfault> the changes made in rosetta are automatically synced with docteam's svn?
<mdke> segfault, no
<mdke> talat, on the wiki, UserDocumentation page. Feel free to email our mailing list, or the edubuntu mailing list too
<talat> ok bthnx
<mdke> jjesse, branches/breezy i think
<mdke> i don't know how froud wants to play the kubuntu thing
<segfault> when talking about microsoft products, shouldn't it include that trademark (tm) stuff?
<mdke> no idea
<jjesse> froud hasn't done any doc work in awhilethat i know of
<jjesse> so i'll just go after branches/breezy and since i'm the only one writing kubuntu docs now :(
<mdke> well froud set up the packaging...
<mdke> i'm sure he'll respond if you mail him
<jjesse> ok i'll take care of it when i get home
<jjesse> if i want to make changes to a doc that should ship in breezy i should do it in the branch then, sorry for asking stupid questions but tyring to learn and do things correctly
<mdke> in theory yeah
<WaterSevenUb> hhhm.... why isn't the quicktour in launchpad? https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/breezy/+sources/ubuntu-docs/+translations
<WaterSevenUb> does anyone know?
<Madpilot> It just hasn't been added yet, is my guess...
<WaterSevenUb> madpilot, strange... the announcemente was only directed towards about ubuntu and faqguide and quicktour wasn't mentioned.
<Madpilot> QT isn't finished
<Madpilot> all the screenshots for it have to wait until one of the other freeze dates - but I think the text is done now
<WaterSevenUb> mapilot, aaah, ok :)
<Madpilot> Burgundavia is the one doing QT - I'm not sure which freeze date he's waiting for before doing the screenshots
<Madpilot> does anyone know if "DuncanLithgow" has ever appeared on IRC? he's making some very large changes to UserDocumentation, and frankly breaking some things...
<ajmitch> quite a number of changes, too
<ajmitch> ah, looks like he's from NZ? I thought I might have recognised the name from a LUG list or similar
<Madpilot> he makes no comments in the actual comments box, but does comment inside the text using ##
<Madpilot> and he seems to be removing stuff from UserDocs, then not creating the new pages that will supposedly hold the removed content
<Madpilot> all the external links that were at the bottom of UserDocs seem to have vanished, for instance
<ajmitch> so he missed out the 'team' part of documentationteam when reading
<mpt> Madpilot: He introduced himself on the mailing list yesterday
<Madpilot> mpt: I noticed that, and the replies he got, too
<mdke> Madpilot, feel free to post to the list on this topic, afaik he hasn't been on irc yet
<Madpilot> mdke: I will later today, I think. Right now I'm digging thru UserDocs history to recover the external links that were deleted
<Madpilot> "## == Other Resources == has been merged with UbuntuSupport"
<Madpilot> except that UbuntuSupport doesn't exist
<Madpilot> I'm moving Other Resources back into UserDocs now, from the history
#ubuntu-doc 2005-09-18
<judax> are there reppositories to pull the kubuntu preview down with apt?
<Madpilot> judax: best ask on either #kubuntu or #ubuntu if you want the Breezy preview for Kubuntu
<judax> ok, was going to work on preview notes and didn't want to do the cd thing
<Madpilot> judax: ah... did you want the Breezy documentation, or the actual OS?
<judax> Madpilot: I wanted the actual os, I know the base is the ubuntu breezy repos, but am not figuring out how to grab kubuntu breezy addtions, like the new apt front-end, tec
<judax> s/tec/etc
<judax> Madpilot: I will ask over in kubuntu, just thought maybe jjesse or froud might have done it
<duncan_nz1> Brian, are you reading this just now?
<ajmitch> hello duncan_nz1 
<ajmitch> Madpilot: ping
<Madpilot> ajmitch: pong
<Madpilot> hi duncan_nz1
<ajmitch> Madpilot: just pinging to tell you duncan is here :)
<Madpilot> thank
<Madpilot> duncan_nz1: I'm Brian Burger
<Madpilot> duncan_nz1: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/WikiSandBox <-- instead of the Test pages you were using
<mdke> hi all
<Madpilot> hi mdke
<jeffsch> mdke: did the makefile fix work?
<segfault> are db2html running cleanly in about-ubuntu.xml?
<segfault> is
<mdke> jeffsch, not sure, i haven't checked yet
<mdke> jeffsch, but looks good, thanks
<mdke> welcome duncan_nz1 
<mdke> gah
<mdke> my screen crashed
<Burgundavia> Madpilot, I am waiting for the art work freeze or near then
<Madpilot> Burgundavia: you talking about Water7's question above?
<Burgundavia> Madpilot, yes
<Madpilot> OK
<Burgundavia> and text is not yet done and might not be translatable
<Madpilot> because it's not in XML?
<Burgundavia> jeffsch, where is the doc now?
<Burgundavia> Madpilot, yes
<jeffsch> Burgundavia: ?
<jeffsch> Madpilot: xhtml is xml
<jeffsch> if the pot file can be made from any old xml, then it should work
<Burgundavia> jeffsch, the quicktour. Is the built version still here --> http://doc.ubuntu.com/gnome/quicktour/quicktour.html
<jeffsch> as mdke :). That's where the makefile should be putting it now
<jeffsch> Madpilot: my understanding is that the pot file consists of nothing more than strings that need to be translated
<jeffsch> the translators create a po file from the pot file, and fill in the blanks with their particular language
<jeffsch> pot = Portable Object Template
<jeffsch> po = Portable Object
<Madpilot> cool
<jeffsch> this is pure speculation on my part, but i suspect that when a the po file is complete, the tools do a search and replace
<jeffsch> they search for the original string, replace it with the translation, and output it all to a new file
<jeffsch> keeping all the stuff between '<' and '>' intact
<Madpilot> makes sense - tag-detection isn't a difficult trick usually. still pretty cool
<duncan_nz1> hi, um, sorry i got burried in geneology stuff. And now it's 3am in denmark
<duncan_nz1> I'm a kiwi (new zealander) in denmark
<duncan_nz1> We'll talk another day.
<Burgundavia> jeffsch, in that case, it still is not being updated
<Burgundavia> jeffsch, I have to run, but I may be on later
<jeffsch> you will have to talk to mdke about it. I only changed the one in trunk, as I haven't co'd the other branch
<jsgotangco> hiya
<Madpilot> hi jsgotangco
<jbailey> jsgotangco: Heya.
<jbailey> I didn't manage to catch pitti today, but I need to get an updated ubuntu-docs uploaded.
<jsgotangco> hey
<jbailey> Might wind up doing it tomorrow morning, though, I'm quite tied.
<jbailey> +r
<jsgotangco> np
<jsgotangco> you're getting it from branch right
<jbailey> Yup
<jbailey> I'm assuming that anythiung that's approved to be in will either get put in the branch by you guys, or I'll get poked to sync (either is fine)
<jbailey> IIRC, I need to unify the various FAQs into one, and do the scrollkeeper bits to do the XML.
<jsgotangco> they're just docs..probably the the last package or to be included in our package is the release notes
<jbailey> Was the quicktour redone in docbook?
<jsgotangco> no
<jsgotangco> its just html
<jsgotangco> hold on
<jbailey> 'k.  Should I just ship what I've got then>
<jbailey> ?
* jbailey holds
<jsgotangco> unify the faq?
<jsgotangco> make it one massive docbook?
<jbailey> In the meeting or just before it, someone said that all the faqs were the same for each arch
<jbailey> So it should be one faq, not faqi386, faqppc, faqamd64
<jsgotangco> oh i thought the doc itself
<jbailey> No, nothing insane like that.
<jbailey> Just that instead of shipping 3, I only need to ship one of them since it's generic.
<ajmitch> sounds reasonable, why would there be different faqs per arch?
<jsgotangco> because the authors did so
<jbailey> ajmitch: bootloader stuff or dualboot config, etc?
<jsgotangco> all 3 arches had different authors
<jbailey> ajmitch: I can think of a number of things that would go per-arch.
<jsgotangco> i always thought it was merged
<ajmitch> jbailey: right
<jsgotangco> errmm why am i assigned a malone bug about docs
<jsgotangco> heh
<ajmitch> jsgotangco: because you're docmaster?
<jbailey> Docteam needs a cool acronym like MOTU
<jbailey> Perhaps we can be the homeys.
<ajmitch> heh
<jbailey> Because we have the power of the WORD!
<jsgotangco> hmm seems to be a rosetta issue 
<jsgotangco> or must be the pot
<HrdwrBoB> DUDE .. Documentation of Ubuntu by Dudes on the internEt
<jbailey> jsgotangco: I've had several friends say that lately. =)
<jsgotangco> haha
<jsgotangco> hmm launchpad seems to be primed up for UBZ
<ajmitch> the spec stuff looks like it needs work on there
<ajmitch> jsgotangco: where's the draft of the admin guide you talked about?
<ajmitch> in svn at the moment?
<jsgotangco> yes
<jbailey> So I think I'll go pass out now and wake up early and do this.
<jbailey> It's 27 degrees here still, and that's outside.
<jsgotangco> that's in F i guess
<jbailey> What?
<ajmitch> alright, see you later
<jbailey> No, civilised measurements.
<ajmitch> K then :)
<jbailey> ajmitch: What civilisatoin do you know of that uses K? =)
<ajmitch> jbailey: only scientists, and they're a bit on the edge
<ajmitch> we use the same scale, of course
<jbailey> Right.  That's like claiming free software hackers as a civilisation.
<ajmitch> the base is just shifted 273.15 :)
<jbailey> Can you think of a more miserable society?
<ajmitch> (iirc)
<jbailey> Somewhere in there.
<ajmitch> one made up of middle management & telephone sanitisers?
<jbailey> Nah.  Middle managment at least knows how to party.
<jbailey> They can eat and drink with the best of them.
<jbailey> And I'd hate to be wiped out by a virulent diesease caused by a dirty telephone...
<ajmitch> the committees & the meetings, though..
<jsgotangco> that's why i quit my job as being one
* Burglaptop commences grumbling about OO2 impress
<Burglaptop> ok, how do I set the background colour on these bloody slides?
* Burglaptop grumbles
<jsgotangco> lol
<jsgotangco> master slide?
<Burglaptop> yes
<Burglaptop> I don't get this
<jsgotangco> hmm whatever happened to muine's minimize function via esc key?
<Burglaptop> found it
<Burglaptop> under format-->page, 2nd tab is background
<jsgotangco> impress 2 has some serious navigation issues
<jsgotangco> its just way too different from the 1.x series
<Burglaptop> impress needs to die, period
<Burglaptop> it took 55 seconds to boot OO2 on my laptop
<jsgotangco> wow
<Burglaptop> with epiphany and xchat running
<Burglaptop> and epip is lighter than FF
<jsgotangco> mine doesn't take that long really probably around 8 secs
<Burglaptop> 40 secs to get to the splash
<jsgotangco> cracking
<Burglaptop> ok, here is another really dumb thing
<Burglaptop> I cannot seem to get a custom colour dialog up
<Burglaptop> so I can choose one of the Ubuntu palettes
<Burglaptop> and the default colours look like shite
<jsgotangco> brb lunch
<Burglaptop> ok, screw impress, I am going to do with pointless
<Madpilot> pointless?
<Burglaptop> a very basic presentation app
<Burglaptop> http://pointless.dk/examples/viewme.pll/
<jsgotangco> i prefer magicpoint
<Madpilot> with that wonderful name? ;)
<ajmitch> pointless works ok in breezy now? :)
<jsgotangco> "A Pointless Presentation"
<Burglaptop> ajmitch, yes it looks great, thanks
* Burglaptop loves pointless
<Burglaptop> someone needs to write a simply gui to it
<ajmitch> ok, since it was only updated a couple of days ago to install
<Madpilot> http://www.edwardtufte.com/tufte/powerpoint
<Burglaptop> ajmitch, thank god
<ajmitch> Burglaptop: a lot of these programs we never use & only hear rumours about afterwards
<Burglaptop> ajmitch, it works a charm here
<Burglaptop> ajmitch, yes that must be difficult. Look at the ruby mess in Hoary
<Burglaptop> salut robitaille 
<robitaille> Hello Burglaptop 
<Madpilot> Burglaptop: hows the presentation for tomorrow night going?
<Burglaptop> robitaille, Madpilot the Ubuntu one is almost dne, just need to write up the Google SoC one
<Madpilot> two presentations?
<Burglaptop> I am doing my main one on Ubuntu
<Burglaptop> but doing a short presenation on SoC
<robitaille> I now have a date for my own ubuntu talk at work; Oct 6th.   How is OOo impress? Last time I tried to use it 3-4 years ago, I got so mad at it, I ended up connverting my talk in html 2 days before the talk, and presenting it using a web browser.  
<Burglaptop> robitaille, I am using pointless. Does that answer your question?
<Madpilot> does FF or Epiph do full-screen like Opera does? You can actually do pretty cool presentations that way...
<robitaille> yes it does.  That is what I used for my last couple of talks.  I was hoping for better with OOo v2
<robitaille> Madpilot,   yes FF can doing full screen
<robitaille> but usually I convert to pdf, then use acroread of xpdf in full screen mode.  Or now, evince
<robitaille> s/of/or
<Burglaptop> point is opengl driven, so you get pretty slides
<Burglaptop> robitaille, you going to be there?
<robitaille> maybe;  I really hope to.  But it's a very busy week; busier than usual if you can believe it.  
<Burglaptop> robitaille, is this correct? http://img296.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ubuntuvsdebian6zn.png
<jsgotangco> guys i received a malone bug regarding rosetta
<jsgotangco> https://launchpad.net/malone/bugs/2242
<jsgotangco> what to do with this?
<jsgotangco> i can't seem to replicate it
<ajmitch> can you reassign to rosetta?
<robitaille> Burglaptop,   for your figure.  I thought debian non-free didn't exist anymore.  I'm really not a debian expert...
<ajmitch> it does
<ajmitch> non-US is the one that was obsoleted
<jsgotangco> i can reassign it to rosetta
<jsgotangco> rosetta-admins?
<robitaille> ajmitch,  ah.  I knew there was a non-something that was  gone :)
<ajmitch> not reassign the bug, since it's not assigned yet
<ajmitch> I mean change that the bug is in ubuntu-doc
<jsgotangco> i believe the package is assigned to UDP as maintainer
<robitaille> rosetta-admins sound like the good one to assign to; if it is a rosetta problem
<ajmitch> ok
<robitaille> but if you cvan't reproduce...it's probably not our problem
<jsgotangco> i can't unless someone in pt or other languages can do it as well
<jsgotangco> its most likely rosetta
<jsgotangco> i'll say i can't seem to reproduce it and ask the help of rosetta-admins
<jsgotangco> that good?
<robitaille> sounds good
<mdke> anyone home?
<HrdwrBoB> yo
<mdke> the translators are picking up typos in about-ubuntu
<mdke> you think it's ok to keep making corrections even after string freeze
<mdke> ?
<HrdwrBoB> typos should be fine though
<HrdwrBoB> the main reason for freeze is for translation anyway
<mdke> yeah
<sivang> guys, please take a look at #15017 and tell me if it deserves a release note :)
<rob^> doesn't it default to grub?
<WaterSevenUb> hey ... I'm translating about-ubuntu
<WaterSevenUb>   	translator-credits
<WaterSevenUb> 		Developer note: Put one translator per line, in the form of NAME <EMAIL>, YEAR1, YEAR2.
<WaterSevenUb> appears this... How can I put one translator per line if Rosetta only allows one line?
<WaterSevenUb> I thought translator were automatically added.
<mdke> no idea
<WaterSevenUb>  Located in:  	  	applications.xml:44(para)
<WaterSevenUb> What happened in the .PO file in this particular point?
<WaterSevenUb> It's SOOOOO LONG.
<WaterSevenUb> can somebody check?
<WaterSevenUb> oops... I'm refering to FAQ GUIDE.
<mdke> WaterSevenUb, you'll have to give me a link to demonstrate what you are talking about
<ajmitch> rob^: around?
<pitti> Hi
<jbailey> Heya
<jsgotangco> salut pitti
<jbailey> (For thsoe follwoing along, pitti and I are just talking about updating translations for the docbook files automatically like langpacks and what our options for breezy are)
<jbailey> jsgotangco: T'es franco? =)
<pitti> ok, can someone please shortly describe the current translation process?
<jsgotangco> basically we have our docbook xml, we make a po file and give it to rosetta
<jsgotangco> right now translators are doing it in rosetta
<pitti> so you have to manually import the PO into Rosetta?
<pitti> or, rather, you generate a POT file automatically
<pitti> and import existing PO files into Rosetta?
<jsgotangco> roughly yes, its our first time to do it with rosetta
<pitti> ok, so we should automate this process first
<pitti> are the documentation files packaged somewhere?
<pitti> if they are, we can do the Rosetta import automatically
<pitti> or are the files maintained separately?
<jsgotangco> none, we only have docbook source what jbailey did was package it himself
<jsgotangco> he made a branch of the current svn to make it package friendly in the future
<jbailey> pitti: I will also be doing weekly updates through the breezy+1 cycle
<jbailey> pitti: So there's a reasonable possibility of doing the usual langpack slurping.
<pitti> hm, so as long as there is no ubuntu-docs source package of some kind, automating something is difficult
<jsgotangco> yes it should be seeded for every milestone
<pitti> AFAICS, the easiest option at the moment would be to write a script that slurps translations from Rosetta and generates translated db-xml files
<jbailey> pitti: Is a source package.
<pitti> this script can then be integrated into the source package
<jbailey> pitti: That's what I'm saying will be uploaded weekly in the new release.
<pitti> ah, cool
<jbailey> And can be done now for my spot uploads.
<pitti> so a mere debian/rules rosetta-update would update everything
<pitti> the problem is, translated documentation does not fit well into the current langpack concept
<pitti> will all translations be shipped in one package, or is there something like ubuntu-doc-de and so on?
<jsgotangco> hrmm
<jsgotangco> no
<jsgotangco> it used to be all ubuntu-doc
<jsgotangco> everything is in there
<jsgotangco> ideally though to save space, it makes sense to add them with the langpacks i guess
<jbailey> pitti: Having them in the langpacks also makes sense to for post-breezy updating.
<jsgotangco> however, those docs point to global entities in the source
<jbailey> jsgotangco: Even the translations?
<jsgotangco> indeed
<jbailey> I thought they just got their own subdirectories and were noticed if they were available?
<jsgotangco> that's why they are all in one folder
<jbailey> Feh
<jsgotangco> that method would end up all the translations having their own copy of the entities
<jsgotangco> instead of just one
<pitti> well, either way, the package can certainly be updated in langpack-o-matic in the end
<pitti> but for now, having the script in the source package is the best solution IMHO
<pitti> later we can call the script from langpack-o-matic, so it's not wasted
<pitti> package-specific logic should be kept in the particular package anyway
<pitti> jsgotangco: what about a ubuntu-doc-common package with all the entities and pictures, and so on?
<jbailey> pitti: I can do that.  So far the docs are arch:all
<jbailey> So there wasn't much point.
<pitti> well, as long as the size of one translation is small compared to the size of images, having just one package probably makes sense anyway
<jsgotangco> pitti: that is ideal since we'll just have all the docs from langpacks refer to a single location
<jsgotangco> we'll just have to fix the svn to make it friendly to that
<pitti> and the packge split is pretty orthogonal to the automatic translation anyway
<jsgotangco> hey jjesse
<jjesse> hey jsgotangco
<jjesse> note from sean (froud) to keep working in trunk for docs
<jsgotangco> he sent you?
<jjesse> i asked him directly
<jjesse> if i was to be making changesw in /branches/breezy and he said to keep working in trunk
<jjesse> On Tuesday 13 September 2005 04:16, Jonathan Jesse wrote: 
<jjesse> > I don't know how much doc work you still are doing for Kubuntu (ubuntu) but 
<jjesse> > do I start making changes to branches/breezy or keep working in trunk? 
<jjesse> 
<jjesse> jj you just keep working in trunk
<jsgotangco> branches/breezy is frozen
<jjesse> that's what i thought
<jsgotangco> it will eventually get merged back
<mdke> jsgotangco, can you push my mails through to the mailing list from last night? sorry
<jsgotangco> sure
<jsgotangco> sorry i wasnt checking the mod list
<jsgotangco> (was busy spamming the edubuntu wiki atm)
<mdke> heh
<jsgotangco> i seem to like the gartoon icons
<jsgotangco> errr
<jsgotangco> mdke: i don't have anything to approve here
<jsgotangco> just spam
<mdke> jsgotangco, hmm
<mdke> i had three emails to be moderated from yesterday
<jsgotangco> maybe liz approved them
<mdke> don't worry then
<mdke> nope
<jsgotangco> (or probably deleted them without reading)
* mdke nods
<mdke> the other thing i was just thinking
<jsgotangco> sorry about that Liz usually does the cleaning in the morning
<jsgotangco> she's 2 hours ahead of me so
<mdke> do you think we should tidy up the LP team?
<jsgotangco> ubuntu-doc?
<mdke> there are a few people in there who are not doc contributors
<jsgotangco> i don't know these people asking for membership
<mdke> i mean there are a few approved people who are not contributors
<squinn> hi everybody.
<mdke> hi squinn 
<squinn> mdke, ironic you said that as i walked in?
<jsgotangco> hah
<mdke> heh
<squinn> no, seriously, i'm sorry. i've been more inactive then GNU/Hurd
<mdke> np
<squinn> But, I'll see what I can do in regards to patches.
<squinn> I just try to experiment too much with Breezy. Now it seems like I'm stable, with the Preview Release.
<mdke> squinn, the documentation has been frozen now, we will just be working on the release notes and then for Breezy +1
<squinn> ah, ok.
<squinn> out of curiousity, did we get that new gnome-doc-utils we were pushing for?
<squinn> well, how can i help on the release notes or Breezy+1?
<mdke> squinn, i think there is a wiki page you can contribute to
<mdke> BreezyReleaseNotes
<jsgotangco> yes
<mdke> no idea about gnome-doc-utils
<jsgotangco> please check on that page
<jsgotangco> we'll pass it to -devel soon
<jsgotangco> squinn: did you use your commit account even once?
<squinn> jsgotangco, did i get one?
<jsgotangco> gahhhh
<squinn> to my knowledge, there was a holdup
<mdke> yes
<squinn> and i never received it.
<squinn> oh.
<squinn> ok.
<jsgotangco> didn't elmo email you about it?
<mdke> iirc
<squinn> nope
<jsgotangco> hrmrmmm
<squinn> got one email from canonical about it
<jsgotangco> about?
<jsgotangco> hmm
<jsgotangco> i think your key wasn't in the public key servers?
<jsgotangco> and elmo said submit it somewhere?
<squinn> yes. that's it.
<squinn> and i lost my key various times
<jsgotangco> yikes
<squinn> and i heard Burgundavia's story about he lost his key.
<squinn> so i finally just emailed it to myself
<squinn> and whenever i reinstall, i have it there
<jsgotangco> squinn: do you still have it then?
<jsgotangco> squinn: are you going to help out again soon?
<squinn> jsgotangco, yes and yes.
<jsgotangco> cool
<jsgotangco> we're frozen at the moment, but after translations come in, we'll brainstorm a few weeks before UBZ
<jsgotangco> so that we'll make Corey's stay in montreal miserable (heh)
<Kinnison> poor corey
<mdke> translation activity has been high btw
<mdke> it's lookin good
<jsgotangco> mdke: yeah im impressed, most of it is almost done
<mdke> well i wouldn't go that far ;)
<mdke> argh
<jsgotangco> well About Ubuntu has been quite done for most
<mdke> rob^ is translating it into Australian
<jsgotangco> lol
<mdke> faqguide i mean
<jsgotangco> ahh
<jsgotangco> hrmm
<jsgotangco> how will he translate that
<squinn> pubring.gpg pubring.gpg random_seed
<squinn>  secring.gpg
<squinn>  trustdb.gpg
<squinn>  [these all go in .gnupg right?] 
<jsgotangco> "command not found wanker?"
<mdke> LOL
<jsgotangco> squinn: that's your keys alright
<squinn> ok
<squinn> those all go in .gnupg, the folder though, right?
<squinn> and revoke.asc goes in my ~
<jsgotangco> mdke: i dont get this i need to be in a team to translate?
<mdke> yeah
<mdke> you can make suggestions if you're not
<mdke> but they will have to be approved by a team member
<jsgotangco> who makes the team?
<mdke> jsgotangco, carlos/daf/jordi
<jsgotangco> ahh
<jsgotangco> now i see how interwined they are now
<mdke> if the team exists already, just apply to join
<jsgotangco> there is non
<mdke> k
<jsgotangco> i request via email?
<mdke> yeah
<mdke> rosetta-users@lists or rosetta@ubuntu.com
<jsgotangco> ahhh
<jsgotangco> nice, we now have slovak and serbian
<squinn> ok, i'm putting my pgp key in launchpad
<CWiesen> hi there, got a question;
<jsgotangco> indonesian! wow
<CWiesen> can someone tell me about the state of the Kubuntu docs? I offered to help with the german translation some time ago and was told that it would be a good time to start when it's in rosetta. Is it? Didn't see anything yet.
<jsgotangco> we'll have bahasa...
<mdke> CWiesen, they are not ready yet unfortunately
<mdke> gtg
<jsgotangco> CWiesen: we didn't include kubuntu they are incomplete
<jsgotangco> unfortunately, there was only 1 guy doing it all at the end...
<CWiesen> ah. so they are beeing worked on in svn then?
<jsgotangco> yes
<CWiesen> Sean Wheller, I know. Could someone remind me of his irc nick? :-/
<jsgotangco> no not Sean
<CWiesen> no?
<jsgotangco> Jonathan Jesse
<jsgotangco> Sean hasn't been active for months
<CWiesen> oh, that's a shame. He seemed very enthusiastic at that time
<jsgotangco> he just sort of dropped out
<highvoltage> CWiesen: Sean Wheller is bantu, I think
<jsgotangco> or venda
<highvoltage> jsgotangco: Sean is just very busy, he's on jabber regularly: seanwhe@jabberafrica.org
<highvoltage> ah yes, venda.
<CWiesen> well, sometimes reallife just stops you from doing some things I guess.
<jsgotangco> he sometimes responds to the list
<CWiesen> ubuntu-doc? somehow (wrongly) expected to see something on kubuntu-devel, stupid me
<jsgotangco> CWiesen: yes
<Burgundavia> jeffsch, mdke the quicktour is working now, thanks
<jsgotangco> Burgundavia: script?
<Burgundavia> jsgotangco, the build script is now working
<Kinnison> Burgundavia: so, do I bring uno to UBZ?
<Burgundavia> Kinnison, I shall be there
* Kinnison nods. I read on p.u.c
<jsgotangco> oh well good night all
<Burgundavia> night jsgotangco 
<jbailey> squinn: GNU/Hurd is remarkably active.. =)
<WaterSevenUb> mdke, for example https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/breezy/+sources/ubuntu-docs/+pots/faqguide/pt/+translate
<WaterSevenUb> mdke look to 207 ... it seems weird ....
<WaterSevenUb> mdke, the example you asked for this morning :)
<WaterSevenUb> mdke, https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/breezy/+sources/ubuntu-docs/+pots/faqguide/pt/+translate?offset=200
<WaterSevenUb> or someone...
<mpt> ugh, that's broken
<mpt> WaterSevenUb: Don't use the  and  symbols in your translations
<mpt> e.g. item 212 shouldn't have all those s in them
<froud> mdke: evening
<froud> Will ppl be merging the breezy branch enhancements to back trunk
<WaterSevenUb> mpt, Well... I don't use them for sure, someone else did!
<WaterSevenUb> mpt, but is not only this that is broken... there are more!
<WaterSevenUb> mpt, what should I do?
<WaterSevenUb> mpt, item 214 is even worse!
<WaterSevenUb> is this happening in every language?
<WaterSevenUb> FAQ GUIDE 207 and 214 items seem to be broken?
<mpt> WaterSevenUb: Yes, it's a bug in Rosetta that it misleads you into using them
<mpt> WaterSevenUb: You can delete those characters when you see them
<mpt> WaterSevenUb: As for items 207 and 214, I suggest reporting a bug
<WaterSevenUb> mpt, Hum? What characters? :))) yeah... I know :) I didn't use them :)
<WaterSevenUb> mpt, where? against rosetta or ubuntu-docs in bugzilla?
<WaterSevenUb> mpt, I mean.... in malone (rosetta) or ubuntu-docs in bugzilla?:) I don't know what the problem is :)
<mpt> WaterSevenUb: in Malone against Rosetta
<mdke> mpt, is there a problem with the pot?
<mdke> or just rosetta you think?
<mdke> i'm terrified that when we come to transform the po's back into xml they will not work...
<WaterSevenUb> https://launchpad.net/malone/bugs/2270
<mpt> mdke: Well, check the XML then
<mpt> See if there's anything that could possibly be wrong
<mpt> but you're a bit unlucky because the Rosetta developer is on holiday at the moment
<mdke> yes i know
<mdke> i'm not 100% confident in the xml2po process :/
<WaterSevenUb> mpt, enough?:)
<mpt> WaterSevenUb: yup, and next time you could even leave out the "cheers, Rui" part ;-)
<WaterSevenUb> mpt, aaaargh... now I feel embarrassed and want to delete that :)
<mpt> Well if you really want to, you can -- click "Edit Description"
<mpt> but it's no big deal
<WaterSevenUb> mpt, done :) uff...
<WaterSevenUb> mpt, now appears two times!!!! 
<mpt> That's intentional
<WaterSevenUb> eheheh
<mdke> don't worry about it WaterSevenUb 
<mpt> If anyone changes the description, the original description is shown as a comment
<mpt> to preserve the history of the bug
<WaterSevenUb> :)
<mdke> right I'm going to try converting the portugese translation back to xml
<mdke> fingers crossed
* mdke waits for the email from LP
<mdke> damn
<mdke> no email
<WaterSevenUb> :/
<mdke> hmm
<mdke> just 23 fatal errors
<mdke> not great though
<WaterSevenUb> mdke, I'm wondering...to solve the problem will the translations done meanwhile be lost?
<WaterSevenUb> mdke, the 207,214 thing? That can be frustrating to some of the guys that have helped us so far...
<mdke> WaterSevenUb, i understand, I do not know what is causing the problems
<mdke> seems to be some /n missing from the translations
<mdke> pt.po:4967: `msgid' and `msgstr' entries do not both end with '\n'
<mdke> i have absolutely no idea about the 207, 214 thing, we'll have to wait for carlos to get back from holiday
<mdke> mark the bug as major if you can
<mdke> and cc me
<mdke> --> gone
<segfault> is there any link with the essentials of documentation tools? xsltproc, docbook, xml2pot, etc.
<froud> http://www.cluetrain.org for those interested in marketing concepts
<squinn> hey sean.
<froud> squinn: hi
<froud> # Eric S. Raymond, President, Open Source Initiative  - "The cluetrain is to marketing and communications what the open-source movement is to software development -- anarchic, messy, rude, and vastly more powerful than the doomed bullshit that conventionally passes for wisdom."
<froud> Far out Eric!
#ubuntu-doc 2006-09-11
<trappist> who should I talk to about a change on ubuntu.com?
<trappist> I guess it's late in the day to ask.  In case somebody with access pokes his head in...
<trappist> on http://www.ubuntu.com/community/lists "highly-technical" should not be hyphenated.
<Burgundavia> trappist: please file a bug against the product
<Burgundavia> ubuntu-website
<Burgundavia> one of the editors, which includes me, can handle it
<trappist> gotcha
<Laser_away> trappist: btw, I don't think it is a big deal to get triage rights
<Laser_away> although I agree that the policy is not straightfoward
<Madpilot> hi all
<Burgundavia> hey Madpilot
<Burgundavia> again, you come on at crazy hours
<Madpilot> 2320 isn't so crazy
<Madpilot> only got home a while ago, a small group of us ordered pizza into the Club and hung out for a while
<Burgundavia> ah
<Madpilot> I'm also waist deep in cats, so late night feeding of them after I got home took a bit ;)
<Burgundavia> right, you at G&G's
<Madpilot> yes, with their two cats & D's two, plus the Dobergoof
<Burgundavia> right
<Madpilot> just for added entertainment, last week someone spotted a cougar two blocks away... ;)
<Burgundavia> right
<Madpilot> the actual big-cat cougar, not the scary-40+yr old woman type
<Burgundavia> right
* Starting logfile irclogs/ubuntu-doc.log
<Gargoyle> Is it possible to get an image into the wiki?
<Burgwork> Gargoyle, yep, upload it
<Burgwork> drop down menu, attachments
<Gargoyle> Can't see that!
<Burgwork> might need to be logged in
<Gargoyle> I am just writing a new page. I have category drop down, then save preview spelling and cancel buttons
<Burgwork> save the page
<Burgwork> then uploadt he image
<Gargoyle> ahh
#ubuntu-doc 2006-09-12
<Gargoyle> I made my first wiki page
<Gargoyle> MySQLVirtualEmail
<LaserJock> \o/
<Gargoyle> I tried to keep it short and link to existing pages where possible.
<Gargoyle> any feedback and comments would be much appriciated
<Burgwork> Gargoyle, email the -doc and ask for feedback
<Gargoyle> will do, just going to make a diagram for DB overview
<mpt> glatzor, which union?
<glatzor> mpt: the one that fights for your rights!
<Madpilot> International Brotherhood of Nominal Ubuntu-docteam Members Who Aren't Doing Much Docteam Work? That's my current union
<mpt> glatzor, I thought they all did that
* glatzor is a proud member of the Verdi union, since they increased his vacations from 20 to 28 days a year!
<mpt> ah
<Madpilot> I should be more polite about unions, I'm still on the executive of our local of CUPE :)
<glatzor> mpt: No, not here in Germany. There are some quite strange unions here around. Especially the Christian ones.
<Madpilot> Christian unions? wha?
<mpt> glatzor, I couldn't tell whether it was a serious political exhortation, or some sort of movie reference :-)
<mpt> Perhaps "Join *a* union"
<Plug> mpt: join the supermarket distribution staff union, perhaps
<nixternal> jjesse: ping a ling
<jjesse> nixternal: pong
<nixternal> hey..i found some more people interested in helping out with Kubuntu docs...remember the guys who were talking about a new "Kubuntu Support TEam"?
<jjesse> yeah?
<nixternal> they are interested in helping out..i provided them will all the info they need to get the repos local, and to learn docbook and what not
<jjesse> awesome
<jjesse> more power to them
<nixternal> im telling people that they can just fire me plain text and i will work it in if it fits as well
<jjesse> is there a launchpad team yet?
<nixternal> no, just a wiki page for them
<jjesse> ok, how do i join ?
<nixternal> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KubuntuSupportTeam
<nixternal> i added my name on the bottom as a Doc Team PoC you should do the same..that way there they have 2 of us to hit up
<jsgotangco> lol i read that as KubuntuSportsTeam
<nixternal> hahah
<nixternal> we need one of those too
<nixternal> Kubuntu Softball Team
<jjesse> grin i would play
<nixternal> that would be quite comical to add that to a wiki page and see if anyone picks up on it
<jsgotangco> there is a gnome world cup
<nixternal> we would own gnome ;)
<Burgwork> nixternal, you can only dream...
<nixternal> haha
<jsgotangco> yeah 
<jjesse> hands down kubunu would whip ubuntu ;)
<nixternal> jjesse is a pro baller, im the "Big Hurt" of the team
<jjesse> how do you make a link on the wiki to a sub page?
<jjesse> my team won the church softball league this year
<nixternal> [:blah/blah: here you go] 
<nixternal> or [:blah/blah:] 
<nixternal> or
<nixternal> blah/blah
<jsgotangco> Burgwork: i need your opinion on this statement
<Burgwork> jsgotangco, shoot
<jsgotangco> SECTION 8. Right to Derivatives and the Control and Modification of Software 
<jsgotangco> Government shall obtain full rights and control over derivatives, modifications and
<jsgotangco> customizations done by government on software that it uses and adopts, provided that
<jsgotangco> government does not use said modified software nor its derivatives for commercial purposes. 
<jsgotangco> do i hear you laughing so hard now
<Burgwork> is that from that new bill for OSS in your country?
<jsgotangco> yeah
<jsgotangco> doesn't make any sense huh
<Burgwork> I read that as the gov't owns you
<jsgotangco> yep
<Burgwork> and now they own your code too
<jsgotangco> yep
<jjesse> i read that as wow
<jsgotangco> completely against section 5 of GPLv2
<Burgwork> lawmakers really don't get open source, even when they try
<jsgotangco> so i said screw you im not supporting your bill
<nixternal> how can the government not use it for something other than "commercial purposes"...we all knwo they are about money and commercialising ;)
<jsgotangco> i told them use PD or else the world will have you as the new FOSS laughing stock
<jsgotangco> only because of that dumb section 8 of the draft
<Burgwork> yes, PD is best
<jsgotangco> you want the final draft of the bill?
<Burgwork> it is, after all, being produced with the "people's money"
<Burgwork> sure, email it to me
<jsgotangco> everything is fine except section 8 which says "all your base are belong to us"
<nixternal> hahaha
<jsgotangco> Burgwork: i've forwarded it to you, feel free to pass it to anyone interested
<jsgotangco> im not really happy that the primary reasons for the bill is "cost"
<Burgwork> hmm
<jsgotangco> it makes some sense to have it amend the existing patent law
<jjesse> hello LaserJock
<jsgotangco> alright im gonna sleep i had my dose of fun tonight
<LaserJock> hi jjesse 
<Gerrit_> hi
<LaserJock> hi
<philbull> Hi guys
<jjesse> hello philbull
<philbull> hey jjesse
<philbull> how do we get sfw into ubuntu-docs?
<philbull> it's just about ready
<LaserJock> is it in the doc team repo?
<philbull> yep
<philbull> just one last patch before DSF
<philbull> https://docteam.ubuntu.com/repos/trunk/ubuntu/switching/C/
<Burgwork> last thing we need is a change to the make file to buidl it
<jjesse> spend more time tweaking and ready as well :)
<jjesse> it does look great philbull
<trappist> docteam.ubuntu.com doesn't get a legit cert?
<jjesse> now we need to tweak for kubuntu for edgy +1 maybe
<philbull> :)
<philbull> we're frozen for Knot 3 now, aren't we?
<jjesse> btw you've done a great job philbull
<philbull> thanks jjesse, couldnt have done it without you + nixternal
<Burgwork> philbull, pretty much
<jjesse> philbull: the docs aren't going itno the knots that i am aware of
<jjesse> so you can commit
<philbull> but what needs to be modified to get SFW to build?
<philbull> as Burgwork said, is it a nasty makefile job?
<jjesse> just a make file change
<jjesse> located at trunk/ubuntu/makefile if i recall correctly
<jjesse> create something to build sfw and then change the make all command to include SFW
<philbull> https://docteam.ubuntu.com/repos/trunk/ubuntu/Makefile
<philbull> how do docs get built?
<LaserJock> for what?
<jjesse> from the make file 
<LaserJock> for the packages it's in debian/
<jjesse> along w/ the stylesheets and html they get packaged into a ubuntu-docs packages
<philbull> say we copy the makefile bits for the server guide...
<philbull> ...can we just replace 'SERVER' with 'SFW'?
<trappist> the kubuntu release notes say that gdm only allows shutdown/restart without logging out first if you use gnome, and that kdm only allows it with kde.  That doesn't seem to be the case.  I have logout/shutdown options in kde though I'm using gdm.  can anyone confirm?
<jjesse> hold on virtual machines restarting
<LaserJock> trappist: I think so
<trappist> LaserJock: you think so it's wrong?
<jjesse> i have in order "End Current Session" "Turn off Computer", "Restart Computer", "Hibernate" in edgy
<trappist> do they work?
<jjesse> yes they do
<trappist> awesome, thanks
<jjesse> are you going to change the doc then?
<trappist> that was the plan - did I miss a freeze?
<jjesse> nope
<jjesse> doc freeze is gcomming
<trappist> good deal
<trappist> who is james troup and where can I get his gpg pubkey?  I'm on a new machine and my svn password is no longer cached, and I'm not on the same box where I imported the key to begin with (so I can access my password in email)
<Burgwork> hmm
<Burgwork> you know your svn password is stored in plaintext on that old machine
<Burgwork> you can simply copy the config into
<jjesse> where is it stored?  in the .svn some place?
<trappist> well the new machine is pretty well history :)
<Burgwork> somewhere in the home dir
<Burgwork> did you lose your key as well?
<trappist> I should be able to look at the keychain on my other box and find it there...
<jjesse> grin that's the problem i'm having w/ my svn as well
<Burgwork> take your private key, export it and burn it onto a cd and hide it in your cd collection
<LaserJock> mhm
<trappist> I've got my private key well cared for
<LaserJock> and don't leave it in the back window of you car on a hot day ;-)
<trappist> just have to find james' pubkey
<Burgwork> look on lp
<trappist> good call
<trappist> doesn't seem to be there
<trappist> ok got it
<jjesse> where did you get it from/
<trappist> apparently I already had it, and kmail was just sucking.  worked fine on the command line.
<trappist> or, I didn't need it to begin with
<trappist> his pubkey id is AB2A91F5 (for posterity)
<Gerrit_> cu
<nixternal> jjesse: that patch, what is it for?
<jjesse> installation.xml for SFW
<nixternal> kubuntu side or ubuntu side?
<jjesse> ubuntu was any work done on kubuntu side of things?
<nixternal> im guessing ubuntu, as the kubuntu side is rather naked ;)
<nixternal> heh, we have talked about it..i had no clue though until recently that we were doing an Ubuntu version and a Kubuntu version
<jjesse> well we will have to do one eventually
<jjesse> but probablly for edgy +1
<jjesse> as i don't know if we have time to get it done before doc freeze?
<nixternal> done ;)
<ompaul> Burgwork, can you cast your mind back a while, do you remember something about hda1 (in this case) showing up as removable drives on the desktop - I can't seem to even find pointers to it
<ompaul> where ubuntu was installed in hdb
<Burgwork> ompaul, well there is a bug that the mounted parititions are showing up on the desktop
<ompaul> thats the one
<ompaul> okay that is a better phrase for it :)
<Burgwork> they are also showing up twice, currently
<ompaul> ooch
#ubuntu-doc 2006-09-13
<nixternal> hiya jsgotangco!
<jsgotangco> nixternal: hey dude how's it going
<jsgotangco> (pretty busy as hell on my side)
<nixternal> working on Knot 3 release notes
<nixternal> same here
<nixternal> i can't wait until next month...edgy will be out, and we will have that 1 month lull around here ;)
<jsgotangco> i'm trying to get 1,000 machines for distribution to public schools get installed with edubuntu in a sane way
<nixternal> you know what...i remember \sh in #kubuntu-devel working on a project that did a mass install rather quickly..i cannot remember his project, but if you skim through http://planet.kubuntu.de and check out some of his older posts, you might run into it
<nixternal> they supposedly installed to a ton of machines in like an hour or something rediculous like that
<jsgotangco> havent seen the actual hardware yet, but will start shipping tomorrow
<jsgotangco> nixternal: i think you should go to UDS Mountain View
<nixternal> when is it?
<jsgotangco> nov. 5-10 i think
<nixternal> http://linux.blogweb.de/archives/227-This-weeks-action.html
<nixternal> One of our milestones was it to install a couple of hundred servers in less then 10 minutes with FAI (Fully Automatic Installation).
<nixternal> in california ey...i will have to look into that
<jsgotangco> yes FAI is part of the solution
<nixternal> i haven't messed with it yet..but i am going to try it out in a similar situation as you, only 50+ machines
<jsgotangco> heh
<LaserJock> I'd like to get edgy to work on 2+ machines ;-)
<nixternal> they need to do a UDS Chicago already ;)
<nixternal> it is kind of hard to travel right now...i am in 15 credit hours worth of crap ;)
<LaserJock> are you working full time too?
<nixternal> not really
<nixternal> i have my clients, and they are all good...i only deal with the now when they have issues...so i put in about 15+ hours a week at most
<nixternal> im living off the GI bill now
<nixternal> my schooling is free from the Illinois Veterans Grant..so the GI Bill is cash in the pocket
<nixternal> 6 credit hours though are easy
<nixternal> the other 9 suck
<nixternal> Ubuntu is my full time job...trying to work in deals locally, and doing my installs and support...every CD i hand out has my info..and I have been supporting those people who are switching
<nixternal> and here with you guys of course ;)
<LaserJock> mhm
<jsgotangco> heh  nice model!
<LaserJock> I think when I was an undergrad the lightest load I had was 18 credits
<LaserJock> but I was trying to do a double major in 4 years and I didn't have a job
<nixternal> that is nuts
<LaserJock> all science too ;-)
<nixternal> ya, im doing a double major as well, and one is a 2yr program to finish my MBA
<nixternal> so i have 2 more semesters after this and I will be done with the MBA
<LaserJock> very nice
<nixternal> then I am going to finish this CS stuff, and maybe go for my final degree maybe
<jsgotangco> i wish i had the current resources to do that stuff
<LaserJock> I'm always thinking of degrees I'd like to get
<nixternal> i gotta work on public speaking...i gave a speech yesterday to about 250 local state reps, and i shat myself..almost got stage fright
<LaserJock> but I gotta get out of school sometime
<LaserJock> 250 is a lot of people though
<nixternal> see..i wish i would have done the schooling almost instead of the military..but then again..the military is what is putting me through school now
<jsgotangco> that's nothing i spoke to 500+ people in korea
* jsgotangco beams
<nixternal> i would be totally done, probably Dr. Rich by now ;)
<LaserJock> mhm
<nixternal> jsgotangco: i envy you guys for that
<LaserJock> hopefully by Edgy+2 I'll be Dr. LaserJock
<LaserJock> ;-)
<jsgotangco> nixternal: just do it when you have the chance and it just becomes natural
<nixternal> i am a horrible public speaker in front of people i don't know..now at the LUGs and Ubuntu meetings where we are about 50 deep I am ok
<nixternal> that is sweet LaserJock, i am going for it one of these days as well..if time permits of course
<nixternal> i may be 50 when it happens, but it will happen
<LaserJock> I should have it by 25 which was my goal
<LaserJock> but who knows, maybe I'll ditch the chemistry thing and work for Mark
<nixternal> what days are people planning on arriving out there?
<LaserJock> Mountain View?
<nixternal> ya
<LaserJock> I would guess the 4th
<nixternal> the 4th and 5th are possibly my only open days..unless we have the Ubuntu Chicago Show that weekend
<nixternal> damn..and I think we are
<LaserJock> maybe you could get an exuse note signed by Mark
<LaserJock> ;-)
<nixternal> lol
<nixternal> $223 round trip, arrive friday the 3rd at 9:35, and arrive back here in chicago on monday at 1pm...right before school...i know though..that once i was there..i wouldn't leave..adn i would be in toruble
<nixternal> plus..i would stay with a girlfriend out there as well
<nixternal> maybe i can get a sponsor..as i will be flat broke, because i will be arriving from mexico the week or so prior ;)
<LaserJock> ditch Mexico, this is Ubuntu we're talking about :-)
<jsgotangco> apply for sponsorship then
<jsgotangco> i doubt you'll get denied sponsorship considering its in the same continent
<jsgotangco> and LaserJock won't have his wallet picked for sure
<nixternal> oh i could never ditch mexico..it is the Birthday Bash..i haven't missed one in 10 years now
<nixternal> heh, i had my wallet picked once..in London with my x-wife and daughter as well..dude was crafty
<LaserJock> jsgotangco: you know it
<nixternal> i didn't feel a thing..at least in Atlanta the guy knocked me out
<nixternal> and all he got was $1
<nixternal> haha
<LaserJock> yeah, well the guy in Paris got a lot more then that
<nixternal> oooh
<nixternal> that sucks
<LaserJock> btw, jsgotangco what a fine picture of you and Matt and Aaron on fridge ;-)
<nixternal> ya, the guy in london got over $1000 if i remember correctly
<LaserJock> yikes
<nixternal> buy guess what...my american express covered everything..just like in the commercials
<jsgotangco> hmm what's the package i need to be able to play unencrypted dvds?
<nixternal> ya..my x-wife used to live in london, and it was her idea to bring all that cash..as the people in london are way to nice to knock you out and steal your cash ;)
<LaserJock> I lost my credit cards, driver's license, and a little over $100
<nixternal> i should have known better..i have seen movies like snatch, and locked stock and 2 smoking barrels or whatever it was called ;)
<nixternal> and trainspotter
<nixternal> heh, i wonder if identity theft is huge over there?
<nixternal> someone stole my identify a few years back..and i claimed all of his income on my taxes
<nixternal> he made some good money too...about $50k
<nixternal> so i figure i probably got an extra $500 or so back in taxes because of him
<nixternal> hell..it happened to my brother and my mom as well
<LaserJock> shesh
<LaserJock> terrible
<LaserJock> of course you won't find pickpocketers in the Bay area
<LaserJock> they are subsidized by the government :-)
<nixternal> i think that once i am done with all my schooling...i am probably heading to either Spain, Greece, or Greece ;)
<nixternal> haha
<nixternal> ya, i was just there last year for an interview at the lusterous googleplex
<LaserJock> my grandpa saw one of the streat performers drive off in a BMW after he was done for the day
<nixternal> oh wow...Chicago will outdo that one...Channel 5 news followed 5 "bums" from their posts near Union Station, to their million dollar homes in Naperville, Buffalo Grove, and other towns
<LaserJock> heh
<LaserJock> at least in Paris they did a decent show
<nixternal> channel 5 news..if you are bogus they will get you
<LaserJock> there was a lady on the train playing a flute that was nice
<nixternal> well..i was in paris 3 years ago..and i went up against some people pissed off at the US
<nixternal> the police wouldn't even help me
<LaserJock> heh
<nixternal> my x-wife and daughter got away and into a building..but since they speak greek fluently..they are safe pretty much
<nixternal> not i
<nixternal> i looked like a pumpkin after that one
<nixternal> i even had women kickin' my butt
<LaserJock> heh
<LaserJock> poor guy
<jsgotangco> heh
<nixternal> you want to know what started it..i was wrong though
<nixternal> this guy was taking a pic of the eiffel
<jsgotangco> like when we were in paris, there were this group beating the crap out of a guy in the streets
<nixternal> and i said it didn't have "sh!7" on the sears tower
<jsgotangco> along the seine
<nixternal> that is all it took
<nixternal> haha, and sebas was the hero!
<LaserJock> yeah, I didn't hear about that until after I don't think
<LaserJock> poor guy
<LaserJock> well, Paris was my first trip outside the US really
<LaserJock> it was interesting for sure
<nixternal> hehe
<LaserJock> but I don't have a huge desire to go to Paris for a little while a least
<nixternal> i don't like the big city of france, but the country side is so beautiful there..and the same with germany
<nixternal> but i love spain and greece the most over there
<nixternal> give me the med and im good
<nixternal> france has the most awesome little villages...if you speak english you are screwed...i would just put money out an dpoint to things on the menu
<nixternal> but if i am going to stay in the US..i have to move to either the Carolinas, Georgia, or Southern Cal..I can't stand the Chicago area any more..politics here are getting bad
<nixternal> So, it is either those states, Mexico, Greece, or Spain when school is out
<jsgotangco> nixternal: come to hong kong or manila one time
<nixternal> i have been to the PI in the navy
<nixternal> very briefly
<nixternal> didn't get to see anything
<nixternal> 1994 was about the time frame
<jsgotangco> you've probably just went to the bars in clark or subic
<jsgotangco> :D
<nixternal> i didn't even hit a bar
<nixternal> we went in, to meet the "lady prez" at the time..i forgot her name
<nixternal> pick up stuff and leave
<jsgotangco> aquino?
<nixternal> i can't remember..she was very popular then as well
<nixternal> i would remember though if i heard it
<nixternal> 1994-1996 time frame maybe
<nixternal> 1991-1993 was the Persian Gulf
<nixternal> and it was after that
<LaserJock> nixternal: move to Montana with the rest of us freaks ;-)
<nixternal> im down with that
<nixternal> i was just there a not even a year ago for my buddies wedding
<LaserJock> I visit places, but Montana is still home for me
<nixternal> montana has the greatest mountain ranges i have seen i think
<LaserJock> but of course ;-)
<nixternal> when you get upon a valley..my god it goes on for miles
<nixternal> it is the most beautiful...in the early spring, and right before winter..actually right about now
<nixternal> with the leaves turning
<LaserJock> I grew up on a ranch
<nixternal> that rocks
<LaserJock> 5 mi x 30 mi
<nixternal> jeesh
<LaserJock> it was a whole valley
<nixternal> branch, not a ranch ;)
<nixternal> the dividians
<nixternal> davidians
<LaserJock> and ~ 10-15 people lived in that area
<nixternal> hiya Burgundavia!
<nixternal> how is the knot stuff going for you guys?
<nixternal> i was loving this Ubuntu look here until they plastered the "Artwork Review" on the sweetness of a wally
<Burgundavia> I hate those
<Burgundavia> makes screenshots harder
<Burgundavia> was out tonight, so our knot page will have to wait until then
<nixternal> oh ya..i rememer you saying you were going to be afk
<nixternal> well i have Ubuntu Edgy Knot 3 freeze running..so if you need something, let me know
<Burgundavia> ok, why is dns failing
<nixternal> hmm..i should create one in vmware
<nixternal> g'nite!
<Riddell> Burgwork: when is the UWN meeting?
<Riddell> rob: could you give me that funky more then 20 channel privilage?
<Burgwork> Riddell, tonight
<Riddell> Burgwork: 02:00UTC?
<Burgwork> 6pm PTD which is 1am UTC
<Riddell> ok
<lloydinho> Burgwork, did you see the mail I sent about finishing up before doc freeze?
<Burgwork> lloydinho, when did you send it?
<lloydinho> A few hours ago to the doc list.
<lloydinho> uh... around 10 UTC
<Burgwork> I have not yet read my email
<lloydinho> ah.. okay. It's just kind of a "somebody with commit rights and clue - help me!" kind of mail.
<lloydinho> Let me know if you can help me out.
<nixternal> i already committed it
<lloydinho> nixternal, awesome.
<lloydinho> I guess I really should start subscribing to the doc-commits list as well.
<nixternal> ;)
<nixternal> it isn't the busiest, but it lets you know to "svn up"
<lloydinho> which is what I just did. :-)
<lloydinho> nixternal, would you know anything about testing the .omf files I changed for the front page?
<nixternal> can't say that i do....but i am going to look into after class tonight...it is something i want to learn ;)
<lloydinho> cool. I also attached two patches to the "Finishing the Ubuntu-docs for Edgy" mail I sent out.
<lloydinho> One for the .OMF files (all except the Switching guide which I know nothing of) and one for the ADSL USB modems section of the Desktop guide.
<lloydinho> Hope you'll have time to look at them as well. :-)
<LaserJock> lloydinho: sorry I've been worthless on this contributing doc :(
<lloydinho> LaserJock, hey - no worries. You've been all kinds of busy with other stuff.
<lloydinho> And I've had plenty of other people to help me with the committing and all that.
<lloydinho> BTW. LaserJock : you wouldn't happen to know the answers to the questions I asked in that email I sent out to the list?
<LaserJock> hang on let me check, I've got a bit of an email backlog from -doc ;-)
<lloydinho> heh. 
<LaserJock> lloydinho: argg, what was the title of the email, you are  sending too many ;-)
<lloydinho> heh. From today: "Finishing the Ubuntu-docs for Edgy"
<lloydinho> LaserJock, with mdke on holiday, I promised to have a look at getting everything ready for packaging, so that's the reason for all the email.
<LaserJock> ah
<LaserJock> we seriously need more time for docs
<lloydinho> well, it seems that this has been a very lazy cycle. We'll need to put in a serious effort for the Furious Fruitfly if we'll go through reorganizing the docs from books to context-based articles.
<Burgwork> lloydinho, furious fruitfly?
<lloydinho> heh. Or Flashy Ferret or whatever.
<lloydinho> It's more fun than saying edgy +1 and it creates RUMOURS. ;-)
* lloydinho goes to dinner.
<trappist> Flamboyant Flamingo would be fabulous
<LaserJock> Fabulous Flamboyant Flamingo
<lloydinho> LaserJock, did you get around to taking a look at the mail?
<LaserJock> yeah
<LaserJock> the omf question?
<lloydinho> right.
<LaserJock> I just really don't know :/
<LaserJock> mdke has always handled the omf stuff
<lloydinho> hmmmmm..
<lloydinho> not ideal.
<LaserJock> when is mdke going to be back?
<lloydinho> not for another week or so.
<LaserJock> well, this sucks
<LaserJock> we are not ready for doc freeze at all
<LaserJock> and mdke is gone
<lloydinho> I'll try heading over to the GIMPNet and see if any of the Yelp guys can help me out.
<lloydinho> LaserJock, about the patches I sent out with the mail - can you have look at them and commit them if they look good to you?
<LaserJock> k
<nixternal> <lloydinho> It's more fun than saying edgy +1 and it creates RUMOURS. ;-)
<nixternal> LOL!!!
<lloydinho> :-)
<nixternal> is anyone going to review the ADSL and OMF for the Ubuntu side of things?
<nixternal> dude..im clueless sometimes
<nixternal> don't worry about the ADSL stuff..that i can handle ;)
<nixternal> the .omf though, i have no stinkin' clue..that is a new one for me
<lloydinho> nixternal, I'm talking to the guys in the GNOME docs section and they'll hopefully walk me through it.
<nixternal> cool
<purple> hi all
<purple> cansomebody paste mi a link to repository of latest kde 3.5.4 to install it on dapper?
<lloydinho> hi purple, you might try the #kubuntu channel for kubuntu support. :-)
<purple> i runnung UBUNTU
<purple> and want to install KDE enviroment
<LaserJock> purple: then install kubuntu-desktop
<purple> but it installs only 3.5.2
<purple> i want latest
<LaserJock> well ...
<LaserJock> edgy has kde 3.5.4
<purple> i installed it few days ago on 6.06.1 but i lost link
<rob> Riddell: done
#ubuntu-doc 2006-09-14
<Riddell> which channel is the meeting in?
<Riddell> Burgwork: meeting?
<nixternal_> #ubuntu-meeting i thought
<nixternal_> Riddell: it could very well be in #ubuntu-marketing maybe
<Riddell> let me try my new extra channels powahs
<nixternal_> hehe
<nixternal_> you used to be in just a few channels..you are up over 20 now?
<nixternal_> you are becoming way to popular around here ;)
<Riddell> I've been at 20 for ages, just always had to quit one when I joined a new channel
<nixternal_> hehe
<nixternal_> speaking of the doc freeze..i am correct that it is within 24 hours correct?
<nixternal_> LaserJock: you are working on the packaging guide correct?
<Burgundavia> nixternal_: yes, yes you are
<nixternal_> oh lord im scared ;)
<jsgotangco> this is one cycle i didnt do anything significant
<nixternal_> me either jsgotangco, so don't feel bad
<robotgeek> nixternal_: howz the KDG looking :)
<robotgeek> i've identified a list of things i need to do for the desktop guide. i'll get it done tonight 
<nixternal_> hehe...i have the KDG and the 2 topics you said on the top of my todo list for tonight ;)
<nixternal_> it should be fine, nothing more than changing Dapper into &distro-version;
<nixternal_> i have found a lot of "Dapper" instead of the &distro-version; in some of hte docs
<nixternal_> i have been taking care of them little by little as well
<robotgeek> the menus have changed in System Settings that affects a bunch of things
<nixternal_> oh wow, that is true
<nixternal_> the sys settings are smaller now..so it is just merging what was there in a new layout kind of
<robotgeek> yeah, a few guiitem/whatever change
<nixternal_> i hate guiitem...if i go by ear, i tend to switch them from scratch at times..thank god for ../validate.sh
<LaserJock> nixternal_: yeah, kinda
<LaserJock> nixternal_: I hope I can get it in some sort of decent shape
* robotgeek hopes he does not have to reboot. on edgy live cd, and installed a bunch of stuff to get doc working
<nixternal_> ok..im heading home..i will get on and we will work some stuff out tonight
<nixternal_> LaserJock: let me work a little on release notes and help robotgeek a little with the kdg..and then i will help you out if needed
<LaserJock> I might have to ask for a freeze exception for the packaging guide
<LaserJock> it's the least translated doc so I don't think it's a huge deal
<robotgeek> hmm, ubuntu desktop guide does not link to add-applications.xml chapter
<robotgeek> also donot forget to add stuff about commerical repository to that chapter, it is referenced in realplayer installation. if i am done with it on kubuntu, feel free to copy
<nixternal> robotgeek: if youa re still around..im creating a fix to the Partitioning in the KDG
<nixternal> ping me if you are around
<nixternal> made those changes
<nixternal> who else is doc working right now?
<Madpilot> not I, I'm afraid. I'm a total washout this release cycle. RL ganged up on me... :|
<nixternal> hehe
<nixternal> same here
<nixternal> i am doing the whole double-major crap right now
<Madpilot> I started working two jobs just as Dapper released 
<Madpilot> that really blew a big hole in my spare time & spare energy supply...
<nixternal> hehe
<nixternal> i can imagine
<Burgundavia> mdke_: are you not supposed to be on vacation?
<Madpilot> Burgundavia, according to your other nick, you're at work right now... ;) I suspect mdke_'s box is idling along w/o him
<Burgundavia> right
<nixternal> where is andreas!!
<nixternal> his internet.xml patch for adsl stuff is broken
<nixternal> kubuntu desktopguide, partitions * ati/nvidia is good to go...committed fixes
<nixternal> the yelp patch i have no clue about, the omf stuff no clue, and the internet.xml patch is broke...release notes are good...about kubuntu i dont know..tha tis jjesse..
<nixternal> but i am going to sleep...if i wake up and there is no freeze yet, i will work more ;)
<nixternal> g'nite
<guibis> hi
<guibis> Does exist a french traduction for the newsletter of wiki.ubuntu.com
<guibis> ?
<lloydinho> nixternal, you around?
<lloydinho> anybody?
<nixternal> hiya lloydinho
<lloydinho> hey nixternal, 
<lloydinho> I tried to fix up the patch which apparently didn't work out before.
<nixternal> so did i miss anything exciting around here ;)
<lloydinho> This place is eerily quiet, it's true.
<lloydinho> Can you have another try with the new patch I sent out?
<nixternal> sure can
<lloydinho> cool.
<nixternal> trappist: you around?
<trappist> yeah, what's up?
<nixternal> what is the correct way to apply a patch so i don't get all the questions on which file to patch?
<nixternal> omg im a moron
<nixternal> never mind ;)
<trappist> it depends on the patch, but usually you're in the root dir of the... ok :)
<nixternal> lol
<nixternal> ya...i wasn't even in the freakin' trunk dir
<trappist> heh
<nixternal> i have a repos/ directory, and htne under it is /dapper and /trunk respectfully
<nixternal> i was sitting in the repos dir...ddin't make it all the way to trunk ;)
<trappist> yeah I do it the same way and often make the same mistake
<nixternal> lloydinho: it isn't validating, but i am going to look it over quickly and see if it would be rather easy..it seems it would be, since they are just xref validity errors
<lloydinho> are you validating the internet.xml or the desktopguide.xml?
<nixternal> desktopguide.xml ;)
<lloydinho> hm. That is odd. It validates fine here.
<nixternal> nm ;)
<nixternal> ok..i need more coffeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee
<lloydinho> yikes. That sounds like a lot of coffee.
<nixternal> it is one of them days
<nixternal> i am starting out retarded
<nixternal> i do this type of work day in and day out..and today of all days, i decide to go against the grain ;)
<lloydinho> ah, I know that feeling. Where you have to slowly beat your head in to shape to get some work done.
<nixternal> yup
<nixternal> well you patch has been applied sir!
<lloydinho> Why, thank you! :-) 
<nixternal> so how are we looking?
<nixternal> have we been frozen yet?
<lloydinho> I don't think it works like that..
<lloydinho> I wouldn't really know.
<nixternal> you and i both
<nixternal> hiya mgalvin
<lloydinho> Oh, did you also add the switchingfromwindows.omf to the SVN tree?
<mgalvin> hi nixternal 
<nixternal> will do that now lloydinho
<nixternal> or doing that now rather
<lloydinho> nixternal, awesome. I think that's the last change I can think of, for now.
<lloydinho> Then I'll go bug the desktop team about the final freeze.
<nixternal> done!
<lloydinho> great!
* lloydinho wanders off to #ubuntu-desktop
<lloydinho> okay, the docs are handed off, but can't be uploaded because of the knot freeze. So hopefully, everything will work out okay.
<lloydinho> Go team! :-)
<nixternal> woot..that gives a little time
<nixternal> we might not get frozen for a few hours then ;)
<nixternal> hurry..lets start and finish the kubuntu switching guide ;)
<lloydinho> haha! Go for it! :-)
* LaserJock wanders off to finish the packaging guide
<nixternal> hehe
<nixternal> you need help at all, ping me
<nixternal> as long as it isn't to "packing in-depth" ;)
<nixternal> im still a packaging noob..i only have 1 lonely package ;)
<LaserJock> well, I rearranged the structure a bit
<LaserJock> but I haven't had the time to work on it
<LaserJock> and none of the devs seem eager to help :-)
<nixternal> of course not
<LaserJock> nixternal: do you know if somebody is going to announce translations?
<LaserJock> s/translations/the start of translation/
<nixternal> haven't heard anything about it...are you referring to edgy translations?
<LaserJock> yes
<nixternal> i believe that has already been announced
<LaserJock> well, the doc freeze is to give translators time to translate
<LaserJock> in dapper mdke sent an announcment to -translators after he had all the .pots up
<nixternal> hmm..maybe i am thinking of something else then
<LaserJock> well, edgy was opened up from translation some time ago
<nixternal> well then..maybe we should carry on the tradition then...and maybe tomorrow or within the next couple of days, get the pots out there and announce it?
<LaserJock> but for docs it's a bit different than program translation
<LaserJock> yeah, except who knows how to put the .pots up?
<LaserJock> and who can do it?
<nixternal> i can look at it
<nixternal> creating the .pots are rather easy
<LaserJock> sure
<LaserJock> but getting them on rosseta
<nixternal> i know how to get them off of rosetta
<LaserJock> last time I think only mdke had access to put them up
<nixternal> i will look into rosetta a little later today, and maybe chat up with some of the rosetta guys
<nixternal> ahhh
<LaserJock> mdke+rosetta admins
<LaserJock> at least
<nixternal> well then that would really stink if we couldn't..but then again..i think he should be back in about a week or so
<LaserJock> well, I'm trying to figure out what to do with the packaging guide
<nixternal> so hold off on translation stuff until he gets back...if that is the case about putting the pot files on rosetta
<nixternal> im hungry, who's buying lunch?
<LaserJock> you apparently ;-)
<LaserJock> I brought lunch
<nixternal> argh ;)
<LaserJock> ugg, this is a mess
<nixternal> im applying for an IT job at my church
<nixternal> just a job during school
<LaserJock> coolio
<nixternal> and plus an "IN" for getting Linux and OSS into the system there ;)
<LaserJock> mhm
<nixternal> the one thing i kind of dislike about the church, is there is a little bit of politics involved..but it is a great church in every other aspect.
<robotgeek> nixternal: everything alrite?
<nixternal> i can see and hear this morning, and im still 6 feet above ground, so i guess so ;)
<nixternal> the ati and nvidia section was ok in the desktop guide..and i fixed the disk and filesystems so they point to the new location in system settings
<nixternal> i will brb..i need some food
<robotgeek> okay. i guess we are fine then. jjesse (or someone else) had gotten to the changes already
<LaserJock> oh stink
<LaserJock> are we supposed to use something in place of ' ?
<LaserJock> mdke!
<LaserJock> mdke: are you really here?
<nixternal> haha no
<nixternal> he keeps 
<nixternal> well wait a sec
<nixternal> he has had a ghost for more than 12 minutes now
<nixternal> that is rare
<LaserJock> darn
#ubuntu-doc 2006-09-15
<FireRabbit> hey there, what should be done when there are two pages with the same name on wiki.ubuntu.com and help.ubuntu.com/community, with different information?
<LaserJock> ouch
<Burgwork> FireRabbit, which pages?
<FireRabbit> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/HelpingWithBugs https://help.ubuntu.com/community/HelpingWithBugs
<Burgwork> let me see
<FireRabbit> i dont really understand wiki.ubuntu.com's purpose anymore
<Burgwork> it has development stuff and team stuff
<Burgwork> anything that is not help
<FireRabbit> okay
<FireRabbit> so is this considered help?
<Burgwork> okay, so in this case, I am going to redirect the help wiki one back to the main wiki
<FireRabbit> okay
<FireRabbit> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/ReportingBugs in that case, this page should not link to the help one
<FireRabbit> in fact, why is this page on help.ubuntu.com at all?
<Burgwork> reporting bugs is a help page
<Burgwork> helping with bugs is for developing ubuntu
<FireRabbit> okay, fair enough
<FireRabbit> would you like me to fix the link on there then?
<Burgwork> already done
<FireRabbit> ah, great
<Burgwork> let the redirect catch it
<FireRabbit> oh, ok, why not.
<FireRabbit> thanks for taking care of that, i wasnt clear on the policy
<Burgwork> no worries
<Burgwork> in general, if it is help, it should be on help
<FireRabbit> okay
<Burgwork> if it isn't, it shoudl be on wiki
<FireRabbit> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ApacheRailsFCGI so this page should be moved
<JoseStefan> what does "Trivial Change" mean on the wiki? is there a wiki guide?
<FireRabbit> JoseStefan: I believe that's used to mark the difference between a lot of new content on the page, vs. simple spelling mistakes, etc.
<LaserJock> JoseStefan: in a practical sense, it just means people aren't going to get email that you made the change
<JoseStefan> thanks
<Burgwork> FireRabbit, yes, move it and put a refresh in place
<FireRabbit> okay
<FireRabbit> is there some way to move it to the other website, rather than copying/pasting the markup?
<Burgwork> FireRabbit, copy paste is currently the way
<FireRabbit> ok. sucks that you loose the revision history.
<Burgwork> sort of
<Burgwork> the revision history is saved on the old page
<FireRabbit> right
<FireRabbit> uh, whats the markup to do a redirect?
<Burgwork> #REFRESH 0 URL
<FireRabbit> thanks much
* Starting logfile irclogs/ubuntu-doc.log
<fwahl> hi guys
<fwahl> i wanted to ask if you need translators from german to english or the other way around...
<jsgotangco> have you checked the german translation team in launchpad
<fwahl> nope
<jsgotangco> you can check it out there of the status for german translations
<fwahl> https://launchpad.net/people/ubuntu-doc
<fwahl> this launchpad?
<jsgotangco> ahh that's the ubuntu-doc team
<fwahl> i see
<jsgotangco> https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/edgy/+lang/de
<fwahl> thx
<jsgotangco> cheers
<fwahl> how can i get contact to that team?
<jsgotangco> https://launchpad.net/people/ubuntu-l10n-de
<fwahl> great.-...thx again#
<Donk> hello
<Donk> I think i have found a few errors in the serverguide
<jjesse> hello
<jjesse> did you check to see if there were bugs filled already for those errors?
<jsgotangco> have a nice weekend ;)
<jjesse> you to :)
<jsgotangco> jjesse: im *sure* you are comming to mountain view ;)
<Donk> yes, but i haven't seen anything
<jjesse> you can either create new bugs in launchpad, or email the ubuntu-doc team (ubuntu-doc@lists.ubuntu.com) with the bugs
<Donk> can i send a copy of the html page with the correction?
<jsgotangco> Donk: well its in xml source, the HTML you see online is an automated published copy
<jsgotangco> it would be better to send a bug report or a patch to the xml (if you know how to do it) so we could just let it publish itself
<jsgotangco> a bug report would be better since it'll be noticed for sure, if not no today but in the coming days as well
<Donk> what is the best way to indicate where are the mistake in the page
<jsgotangco> just tell what section the mistake is located since the source is structured enough it can be spotted for sure
<Donk> ok, i make a bug report
<Donk> thank you
<Donk> https://launchpad.net/products/ubuntu-doc/+bug/60573
<Ubugtu> Malone bug 60573 in ubuntu-doc "Errors in the Email Services section of the serverguide" [Untriaged,Unconfirmed]  
<bhuvan> Donk: i'll take care of it
<bhuvan> Donk: First two issues are taken care (yeah, i'll update in launchpad too). but could you please clarify "And the command "telnet localhost imap2" is not correctly strong"?
<Ubugtu> New bug: #60573 in ubuntu-doc "Errors in the Email Services section of the serverguide" [Untriaged,Unconfirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/60573
<nixternal> mornin'
<LaserJock> :(
<LaserJock> is anybody around?
<trappist> sure
<trappist> do I count?
<LaserJock> sure
<LaserJock> I'm a little uncertain of what's all going on with docs
<LaserJock> and I'd like a doc freeze exception of a couple days for the packaging guide
<LaserJock> I'm almost done cleaning it up
<trappist> we're frozen?
<LaserJock> I think so
<trappist> I didn't see anything
<LaserJock> well, that's the thing
<LaserJock> with mdke gone it seems we are a bit chaotic :-)
<LaserJock> yeah string freeze was the 14th
* trappist :q!'s
<LaserJock> were you working on stuff?
<trappist> yeah, but it may not be relevant to the string freeze (shouldn't affect translators).  Basically typo fixes and such.
<LaserJock> well, this is the thing
<LaserJock> I'm not sure when we are going to start translation
<LaserJock> I wonder if we should ask mdz about moving the doc freeze until mdke is back
<trappist> afaik there's not much point in a string freeze until we're ready to start translation
<LaserJock> exactly
<LaserJock> I also don't know if we were supposed to empliment the entitity change
<LaserJock>  argg
<nixternal> LaserJock: +1 on the moving it until mdke is back ;)
<LaserJock> I just don't know what we're going to do
<nixternal> im really not happy with the current "status" of some of the docs...as i think there needs to be some proofing done, as well as some changes/additions
<nixternal> especially to anything dealing with "support"
<nixternal> as that has totally changed from dapper > edgy
<LaserJock> yeah, we haven't done much of any proofreading yet
<LaserJock> Burgwork: ping?
<LaserJock> I'm not sure how to procced
<Burgwork> LaserJock, pong
<trappist> I *know* it's not necessary to reboot for a hostname change.  I just know it.  any of you guys know how to make it stick, so I can fix this here doc?
<LaserJock> Burgwork: do you think it would be possible to move the doc freeze until after matthew gets back?
<Burgwork> need to ask the distro team, meaning matt
<Burgwork> mdz, rather
<LaserJock> k
<LaserJock> Burgwork: would you be opposed?
<Burgwork> nope
<trappist> we should probably ask the translators
<trappist> for all I know they're already hard at work
<LaserJock> translation hasn't started yet thoug
<LaserJock> I don't think
<nixternal> no translation yet..they are waiting though
<LaserJock> I don't know that anybody has put up .pots
<nixternal> like a bunch of sharks in a feeding frenzy they are ;)
<nixternal> no .pots yet
<LaserJock> I don't even know who can
<LaserJock> oh stink, it does look like some of the translators are antsy
<LaserJock> anybody know when Matthew gets back?
<Burgwork> one week or so?
<LaserJock> ok, just got the ok from mdz for the 21st
<LaserJock> that's beta freeze
<trappist> sweet.
<jjesse> 21st for doc freeze now?
<LaserJock> yes
<LaserJock> I'll email the list
<nixternal> thank god!
<nixternal> good job LaserJock! very much appreciated
<jjesse> nixternal: have you gotten Riddell to review the release ntoes?
<nixternal> not yet
<jjesse> make sure that is done before doc freeze :)
<nixternal> i think there needs to be a little bit more work with it maybe
<nixternal> oh i will
<jjesse> awesome, don't want a repeat of dapper releasee notes :(
<LaserJock> no
<LaserJock> ok, I sent out the email
<LaserJock> I've got a meeting and have probably done enough damage for one day ;-)
<jjesse> good :)
<trappist> hey, how is 'xubuntu' pronounced?  that is, is it 'a xubuntu system' or 'an xubuntu system'
<LaserJock> at Paris I heard it as zubuntu
<LaserJock> so I say "a xubuntu system"
<trappist> cool
<trappist> I've been saying exubuntu
<osg> I thought it was "exubuntu".
<nixternal> i have heard it pronounced every which way imaginable
<osg> What does the x stand for?
<nixternal>  /zoo-BOON-too/ is correct
<nixternal> Xfce
<osg> It just seems really really that an x is pronounced as a z.
<osg> odd, that is.
<osg> But, it is not an English word, I presume.
<jjesse> does it mean anything?
<nixternal> Xerox
<osg> "XForms Common Environment"
<osg> Good example!
<osg> :)
<nixternal> hehe
<osg> So, is that said "Zforms Common Environment"?
<nixternal> Chicago == Xerox Capital ;)
<osg> heh
<jjesse> no does xubuntu mean anything/
<nixternal> oh..not that i know of
<nixternal> like kubuntu means towards humanit
<nixternal> and what not
<osg> https://help.ubuntu.com/xubuntu/desktopguide/C/introduction-chap.html
<osg> The name Xubuntu indicates the combination of the Xfce Desktop Environment with Ubuntu. Xfce used to stand for "XForms Common Environment", but since it's not based on XForms anymore, does not mean anything today. Ubuntu means approximately "humanity towards others" in the languages of Zulu and Xhosa. Combined, it does not really mean anything.
<osg> Maybe it would be good to add a pronunciation like (zoo-BOON-too) to the docs.  :)
<jjesse> good idea
<osg> The the correct article is a non-issue.  :)
<jjesse> ii'm bored at work :(
<osg> I think that I will get more involved with docs after this deadline occurs so that I can come up to speed on how its all done.
<osg> Has it become easier to map the source files with the output files?
<nixternal> osg, i will be awaiting your "pronunciation" patch ;)
<osg> For example, 123.xml --> 123.xml
<nixternal> actually...someone has been doing a lot of xubuntu commits recently
<osg> nixternal, I would like to make changes, but I need a little more time figuring out where all the source files are that relate to the output files.
<nixternal> maybe talk to them
<nixternal> ya
<nixternal> with kubuntu/kde it is easy to figure out the source files with khelpcenter
<nixternal> oh wait
<nixternal> if you look at the top of each page, you will see the source package name
<nixternal> it is usually <centered>
<nixternal> brb..showah powah time
<osg> If I can really easily see blah.html needs a correction and go to blah.xml, I can work at blazing speed.
<osg> If not, I tend to be an impatient person.  :)
* osg lunches.
<nixternal> LaserJock: app version 1.2.3.4 > (1.2.3.4-0ubuntu1)    <- would that be correct for a new upstream?
<LaserJock> it's not in Debian?
<nixternal> not this version
<LaserJock> then yeah
<nixternal> just got released this wekk
<nixternal> 1.2.3 would be in debian, as well as ubuntu, but not 1.2.3.4
<nixternal> asking because of the lintian version warning
<LaserJock> ah
<LaserJock> usually lintian doesn't know about Ubuntu
<LaserJock> it's like "WTH, what are you tryinng to do"
<LaserJock> sometimes you just have to smack it around for a while ;-)
<nixternal> native-package-with-dash-version
<LaserJock> oh
<nixternal> source-nmu-has-incorrect-version-number 1.5.1.4-0ubuntu1
<LaserJock> well you probably are trying to build a native package, and that would be a problem
<nixternal> interesting
<nixternal> i found the issue
<nixternal> a typo on my part with the version number
<LaserJock> are you trying to build a native package?
<nixternal> native as in?
<nixternal> labplot
<nixternal> that is the pkg
<LaserJock> a native package has no .orig.tar.gz
<LaserJock> the packaging is part of the source
<nixternal> cp labplot-1.5.1.4.tar.gz labplot_1.5.1.4.orig.tar.gz
<nixternal> but i accidentally did 1.4.1.orig.tar.gz
<LaserJock> ah
<nixternal> the hash part is fixed
<nixternal> i get the typical changelog-should-mention-nmu & source-nmu-has-incorrect-version-number 1.5.1.4-0ubuntu1
<nixternal> packaging is fun...i don't know why..but it is ;)
<LaserJock> mhm
#ubuntu-doc 2006-09-16
<Burgundavia> Laser_away: I just got an away message from Matt. He is back the 29th
<Burgundavia> evening Madpilot
<Madpilot> hi Burgundavia 
<HighBit> RIP lilo :(
<ompaul> there is true
#ubuntu-doc 2006-09-17
<nictuku> I need to write documentation for a software I am writing, which format would you suggest? SGML, docbook?
<Burgundavia> nictuku: what sort of software?
<nictuku> sysadmin
<nictuku> http://cetico.org/nwu
<Burgundavia> oh, that
<Burgundavia> I would use docbook
<nictuku> Are there tools to help, or templates?
<zwnj> what's the license of help.ubuntu.com docs?
<zwnj> we want to translate some pages to Persian, but we need to know which license it has...
<jsgotangco> its dual license
<jsgotangco> check out the pages they indicate it
<zwnj> jsgotangco: which pages?
<JoseStefan> i'd like to report a typo on this wiki: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/EdgyUpgrades
<crimsun> file a bug against ubuntu-website
<JoseStefan> ok
<JoseStefan> crimsun, can i fix the problem myself in a manner similar to wiki.uc ? or do different rules apply for help.uc ?
<crimsun> JoseStefan: only a few people have write/commit access to help.uc
<crimsun> hence why you needed to file a bug
<JoseStefan> so bugs for ubuntu-website are filed thru launchpad same way as any other pkg ?
<crimsun> yes.
<crimsun> the "source package" is ubuntu-website, that is
<FireRabbit> i can fix it, whats the problem?
<FireRabbit> crimsun: are you sure? i thought anyone could edit /community
<crimsun> no, I'm not sure. I don't follow doc policy very closely.
<crimsun> I looked at the hostname and made an assumption.
<FireRabbit> heh, yeah JoseStefan you should be able to just log in with your launchpad account
<JoseStefan> oh
<JoseStefan> well i did add the wiki to my launchpad, but was afraid of breaking any rules
<FireRabbit> i dont even think you have to sign the code of contduct to get wiki permissions the way things are currently set up
<JoseStefan> FireRabbit, problem involves changes made in Rev 4, \s was added to one side of the regex but missed the other. As a result needed spaces are removed. Suggested Fix is at add \s to the 2nd half of the regex. I will try to make the change myself
<FireRabbit> you know, cant you do this by running update-manager -d ?
<FireRabbit> oh yeah, that's listed under "Alternative Ways"
<JoseStefan> yeah, but the point is unsuspecting users may mess up their sources.list
<FireRabbit> yeah, so why not move that update-manager to the top of this page, and sugegst people use that
<FireRabbit> and not put any regexes at all
<JoseStefan> it is yet to be confirmed the robustness of update-manager, i've haven't heard a good ammount of success stories
<LaserJock> I think anyone can edit and add pages to help.ubuntu.com/community
<LaserJock> but they can't delete
<LaserJock> and ubuntu-website isn't related to help.ubuntu.com
<LaserJock> that's from www.ubuntu.com
<LaserJock> s/from/for/
#ubuntu-doc 2007-09-10
<CIA-18> Ubuntu Documentation: sbalneav * r4329 edubuntu/images/C/seconddisk.png: Fixed grammatical error in image
<mdke> morning all
<penguincentral_> hello.  i am interested in possibly making some screencasts.
<penguincentral_> anyone here?
<popey> yes
<popey> we also have #ubuntu-screencasts :)
<penguincentral_> thanks popey
#ubuntu-doc 2007-09-11
<ubotu> New bug: #138777 in ubuntu-docs (main) "Wrong internal links in 'Installing a single package file'" [Undecided,New]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/138777
<CIA-18> Ubuntu Documentation: sbalneav * r4330 edubuntu/handbook/C/ (bookinfo.xml server.xml): Added multi-server setup from Francis, updated authors
<mdke> morning all
<ubotu> New bug: #138891 in ubuntu-docs (main) "Mistake in basic-commands about pwd" [Undecided,New]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/138891
<ubotu> New bug: #138901 in ubuntu-docs (main) "activating/deactivating an interface" [Undecided,New]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/138901
<CIA-18> Ubuntu Documentation: nixternal * r4331 kubuntu/config-desktop/C/config-desktop.xml: Thank you Jason for providing this Compiz-Fusion write up
<ubotu> New bug: #138937 in kubuntu-docs (main) "[Gutsy]  "Ubuntu 7.04" in Kubuntu docs" [Undecided,New]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/138937
<sommer> hey all is String Freeze on the 13?
<CIA-18> Ubuntu Documentation: ddrichardson * r4332 ubuntu/internet/C/modem.xml: Dougie Richardson - Connecting to the Internet, modems
<sommer> !StringFreeze
<ubotu> Sorry, I don't know anything about stringfreeze - try searching on http://ubotu.ubuntu-nl.org/factoids.cgi
<CIA-18> Ubuntu Documentation: ddrichardson * r4333 ubuntu/internet/C/adsl.xml: Dougie Richardson - Connecting with ADSL modems.
<CIA-18> Ubuntu Documentation: ddrichardson * r4334 ubuntu/internet/C/basics.xml: Dougie Richardson - Connecting to the internet and networking basic information.
<CIA-18> Ubuntu Documentation: ddrichardson * r4335 ubuntu/internet/C/connecting.xml: Dougie Richardson - Wireless networking main file.
<CIA-18> Ubuntu Documentation: ddrichardson * r4336 ubuntu/internet/C/networking.xml: Dougie Richardson - Minor corrections and formatting changes.
<sommer> I found Sept 13 in a couple of blogs so I'll go with that.
<CIA-18> Ubuntu Documentation: ddrichardson * r4337 ubuntu/internet/C/troubleshooting.xml: Dougie Richardson - Wireless troubleshooting guide.
<CIA-18> Ubuntu Documentation: ddrichardson * r4338 ubuntu/internet/C/internet.xml: Dougie Richardson - Updated format.
<CIA-18> Ubuntu Documentation: ddrichardson * r4339 ubuntu/internet/C/connect.xml: Dougie Richardson - Helper to guide user to correct connection section.
<CIA-18> Ubuntu Documentation: ddrichardson * r4340 ubuntu/internet/C/wireless.xml: Dougie Richardson - Changed ndiswrapper to windows wireless drivers.
<fijam_> sommer, yes
<CIA-18> Ubuntu Documentation: ddrichardson * r4341 ubuntu/internet/C/web-apps.xml: Dougie Richardson - Formatting.
<fijam_> massive internet documentation updates, that's what I love. Now let fijam adjust it for xubuntu.
<sommer> fijam_: cool thanks
<sommer> fijam_: I'm really into Xubuntu as well if you need help with anything specifically let me know.
<sommer> I'm still learning the whole process though :)
<fijam_> there's this https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Documentation/Assignments page
<fijam_> just pick something and join us at #xubuntu-devel
<sommer> ah genius I'll try to help out...thanks for the link
<fijam_> no problem, you're welcome :)
<mdke> sommer: wiki.ubuntu.com/GutsyReleaseSchedule is the relevant page for freezes
<sommer> cool thanks mdke
#ubuntu-doc 2007-09-12
<fijam> Hmm. "Your message to ubuntu-doc awaits moderator approval" Apparently the patch was too big.
<fijam> see you tomorrow
<mdke> good morning
<mdke> bhuvan: there are a couple of patches outstanding on the serverguide, do you have ny time to review them?
<bhuvan> sure mdke
<mdke> awesome
<CIA-18> Ubuntu Documentation: bhuvan * r4342 generic/serverguide/C/web-servers.xml:
<CIA-18> Ubuntu Documentation: * generic/serverguide/C/web-servers.xml
<CIA-18> Ubuntu Documentation:  Change the PHP5 package name for running php scripts from command line.
<CIA-18> Ubuntu Documentation: Patch by: Adam Sommer
<mdke> that's the stuff!
<CIA-18> Ubuntu Documentation: bhuvan * r4343 generic/server/C/mail.xml:
<CIA-18> Ubuntu Documentation: * generic/server/C/mail.xml
<CIA-18> Ubuntu Documentation:  Update for postfix section. Add sudo for all postconf commands.
<CIA-18> Ubuntu Documentation: Patch by: Adam Sommer
<CIA-18> Ubuntu Documentation: bhuvan * r4344 generic/server/C/web-servers.xml:
<CIA-18> Ubuntu Documentation: * generic/server/C/web-servers.xml
<CIA-18> Ubuntu Documentation:  Fix a typo.
<mdke> nice work bhuvan
<CIA-18> Ubuntu Documentation: bhuvan * r4345 generic/serverguide/C/mail.xml:
<CIA-18> Ubuntu Documentation: * generic/serverguide/C/mail.xml
<CIA-18> Ubuntu Documentation:  Update the fix for postfix section in serverguide version.
<CIA-18> Ubuntu Documentation: Patch by: Adam Sommer
<bhuvan> np mdke!
<mdke> I think we've done a decent job this release cycle
* mdke pats everyone on the back
<mpt> And three cheers for mdke
<CIA-18> Ubuntu Documentation: bhuvan * r4346 generic/server/C/vcs.xml:
<CIA-18> Ubuntu Documentation: * generic/server/C/vcs.xml
<CIA-18> Ubuntu Documentation:  Include instructions for svn import command. Few more minor tweaks.
<CIA-18> Ubuntu Documentation: Patch by: Adam Sommer
<bhuvan> svn commit takes so much time again. i got my email, i got irc notification, but my 'svn commit' command did not return even after 3mins!
<CIA-18> Ubuntu Documentation: bhuvan * r4347 generic/server/C/vcs.xml:
<CIA-18> Ubuntu Documentation: * generic/server/C/vcs.xml
<CIA-18> Ubuntu Documentation:  Include link for bazaar and launchpad websites.
<CIA-18> Ubuntu Documentation: bhuvan * r4348 generic/server/C/package-management.xml:
<CIA-18> Ubuntu Documentation: * generic/server/C/package-management.xml
<CIA-18> Ubuntu Documentation:  Sync it with the serverguide version.
<CIA-18> Ubuntu Documentation: bhuvan * r4349 generic/serverguide/C/vcs.xml:
<CIA-18> Ubuntu Documentation: * generic/serverguide/C/vcs.xml
<CIA-18> Ubuntu Documentation:  Sync it with the server version.
<CIA-18> Ubuntu Documentation: ddrichardson * r4350 ubuntu/internet/C/modem.xml: Dougie Richardson - Improved format, added DNS help.
<CIA-18> Ubuntu Documentation: ddrichardson * r4351 ubuntu/internet/C/basics.xml: Dougie Richardson - Improved format.
<CIA-18> Ubuntu Documentation: ddrichardson * r4352 ubuntu/internet/C/internet.xml: Dougie Richardson - Formatting, validation.
<CIA-18> Ubuntu Documentation: ddrichardson * r4353 ubuntu/internet/C/connect.xml: Dougie Richardson - Network manager description.
<CIA-18> Ubuntu Documentation: bhuvan * r4354 generic/ (server/C/web-servers.xml serverguide/C/web-servers.xml):
<CIA-18> Ubuntu Documentation: * generic/serverguide/C/web-servers.xml
<CIA-18> Ubuntu Documentation: * generic/server/C/web-servers.xml
<CIA-18> Ubuntu Documentation:  Include instruction to install php5-cgi package. Explain the purpose of
<CIA-18> Ubuntu Documentation:  the same.
<CIA-18> Ubuntu Documentation: Patch by: Adam Sommer
<CIA-18> Ubuntu Documentation: (Tweaked by me)
<CIA-18> Ubuntu Documentation: bhuvan * r4355 generic/ (server/C/mail.xml serverguide/C/mail.xml):
<CIA-18> Ubuntu Documentation: * generic/server/C/mail.xml
<CIA-18> Ubuntu Documentation: * generic/serverguide/C/mail.xml
<CIA-18> Ubuntu Documentation:  Change the package name libsasl2 -> libsasl2-2.
<CIA-18> Ubuntu Documentation: Patch by: Adam Sommer
<CIA-18> Ubuntu Documentation: (Tweaked by me)
<CIA-18> Ubuntu Documentation: lucius * r4356 xubuntu/ (3 files in 2 dirs): updated patch from jan, with a few corrections
<osmosis> Im putting all the info in, but I could use some help with wiki formatting.  https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Xen
<osmosis> anyone available for that ?
<CIA-18> Ubuntu Documentation: sbalneav * r4357 edubuntu/handbook/C/ (5 files): Proofreading by Carol, X_RAMPERC, other technical fixes
<oldmanstan> anybody know when exactly is the point at which patches can no longer be committed?
<mdke> oldmanstan: there isn't an exact point
<mdke> well, there is; it's 23:59 UTC today, which is a few hours away. But that's not rigously enforced
<mdke> a few late changes will not hurt
<oldmanstan> oh wow, so in like 3 hours yes?
<oldmanstan> i suck at timezones :)
<oldmanstan> cool, thanks
<mdke> ok
<nixternal> oldmanstan: don't worry, I still have a few changes to make to Kubuntu docs and I can't finish them today unfortunately
<nixternal> typically +1 at most, especially with the push back of tribe 6
<fijam> mdke, any suggestion on how to handle the 'variable' in the pathname?
<nixternal> $HOME?
<nixternal> like that?
<fijam> nixternal, the problem is that xubuntu needs to provide a relative path to a .html file instead of "ghtml:SomeID" link, for example "url="../../add-applications/C/index.html"
<fijam> C varies depending on a given translation
<nixternal> ahh, that is right..I forgot you guys aren't using Yelp now correct?
<fijam> Indeed
<fijam> any suggestions?
<oldmanstan> fijam: what exactly is the problem now? you need dynamic links?
<oldmanstan> if it's gonna be html why not just use javascrap?
<fijam> oh, I do not know if JS is to be approved in the docs. I so not know what are the limitations of buiilding process, and how the translation packages are being handled
<fijam> I am afraid someone with more experience ought to sort it out :/
<j1mc> kubuntu just uses the standard ulinks.  i wonder if ours won't work because we aren't using something like khelp.  ??
<fijam> j1mc, these are not entirely 'standard', help:/path/ is not an html url definition. And yes, we have no documentation reader to handle those "help:" definitions
<j1mc> thanks, fijam
<fijam> got to go, see you
<j1mc> hi jjesse
<j1mc> jjesse: could you be of any help with this issue: https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-doc/2007-September/009386.html ?
#ubuntu-doc 2007-09-13
<j1mc> hm, i think that a link done up like this may work: <ulink url="ubuntu/serverguide/&language;/index.html">HTML</ulink>
<j1mc> the '&language' part would allow for the different translations to be handled correctly.
<j1mc> at least i think so.
<Ubotu> New bug: #139246 in ubuntu-docs (main) "Suspend help files are outdated" [Undecided,New]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/139246
<oldmanstan> oh no ubotu, a bug! you should probably get on fixing that you lazy bot
<fijam> hello
<slytherin> Do i need to file a bug to indicate a minor change in the documentation?
<bhuvan__> stytherin: you can. or, you can indicate that in the mailing list preferably with a tentative patch
<shriphani__> hmm i took up the fluxbox docs... (well I don't know if i really did, I am writing them atm). do you think users will understand if i say that the slit is where swallowed apps go ?
<CIA-18> Ubuntu Documentation: sbalneav * r4358 edubuntu/handbook/C/server.xml: Added section on autologin, some minor cleanups
<sbalneav> \o/  Finished the handbook!
<nixternal> awesome
<nixternal> I need to hurry and make some fixes to Kubuntu
<nixternal> I hate not having the time right now
<sbalneav> I can't believe I made string freeze.
<nixternal> heh, I didn't...but what else is new
<nixternal> I still have about 8 hours according to my clock though :)
<CIA-18> Ubuntu Documentation: nixternal * r4359 /trunk/ (20 files in 20 dirs): this should be it for Kubuntu - string freeze in effect
<nixternal> yay!
<mdke> nixternal: sbalneav: freezes strike at the end of the previous day :p
<nixternal> shhh
<mdke> but well done
<nixternal> hehe
<nixternal> I think all I really had to do was just regen the pot files
<sbalneav> Well, I just corrected some spelling misteaks, so we'll call those bugfixes :)
<nixternal> and I added one contributor for helping out with Kubuntu docs
<nixternal> I would have been totally done last week, but my internet provider decided our area didn't need the internet
<CIA-18> Ubuntu Documentation: mdke * r4360 ubuntu/ (10 files in 10 dirs):
<CIA-18> Ubuntu Documentation: Adding omf files for those documents which don't have one; updating
<CIA-18> Ubuntu Documentation: "get-pot.sh" script accordingly
<CIA-18> Ubuntu Documentation: mdke * r4361 ubuntu/ (19 files in 19 dirs): refreshing pot files
#ubuntu-doc 2007-09-14
<mpt> http://www.informationweek.com/blog/main/archives/2007/09/the_state_of_th.html
<mpt> "A few years ago, my biggest complaint about Linux applied to many things in the computer world: The documentation was uniformly lousy and scattershot. Since then, at least one distribution -- Ubuntu -- has set a fairly high standard of documentation."
<CIA-18> Ubuntu Documentation: bhuvan * r4362 generic/ (server/C/file-server.xml serverguide/C/file-server.xml):
<CIA-18> Ubuntu Documentation: * server/C/file-server.xml
<CIA-18> Ubuntu Documentation: * serverguide/C/file-server.xml
<CIA-18> Ubuntu Documentation:  Updates for file server section.
<CIA-18> Ubuntu Documentation: Patch by: Adam Sommer
<CIA-18> Ubuntu Documentation: Reviewed by: Mathias Gug
<sommer> bhuvan: you about?
<bhuvan> yes sommer
<sommer> cool I had a quick question about the string freeze
<sommer> the plan was to go through the Server Guide and update for Gutsy, but I don't think we made it.
<sommer> does it make sense to still submit patches?
<sommer> or will they just be applied for Hardy?
<bhuvan> sommer, mdke can confirm it'll be made through gutsy. but my point is, it's still very good to keep submitting patches and nothing will be lost. if not for gutsy, sure it will be made available for next release
<sommer> bhuvan: sounds good thanks for all your help
<bhuvan> np sommer
<mdke> sommer: if there are severe errors, please go ahead and submit patches, otherwise they will certainly be used in the next release
<mdke> I wish philbull would hang around here :(
<CIA-18> Ubuntu Documentation: mdke * r4363 /trunk/ (21 files in 21 dirs): updating changelog, refreshing pot files
<ubotu> New bug: #139548 in ubuntu-docs (main) "Please update the package from svn" [Undecided,New]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/139548
<ubotu> New bug: #139613 in ubuntu-doc "Faulty string in kubuntu-docs/files-and-doc" [Undecided,New]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/139613
<CIA-18> Ubuntu Documentation: nixternal * r4364 kubuntu/ (19 files in 19 dirs): close #139613 - package hasn't been uploaded yet
<CIA-18> Ubuntu Documentation: nixternal * r4365 kubuntu/debian/changelog: update debian changelog
* #ubuntu-doc  [freenode-info]  if you need to send private messages, please register: http://freenode.net/faq.shtml#privmsg
<Gwaihir> mdke: when will pot files for the docs be ready in launchpad?
#ubuntu-doc 2007-09-15
<shriphani> what exactly is the help wiki ?
<CIA-18> Ubuntu Documentation: sbalneav * r4366 edubuntu/handbook/C/ (introduction.xml server.xml): Some comments by dtrask
<shriphani> excuse me I asked some time back about the help wiki. what exactly is it ?
<mdke> shriphani: it is a wiki at https://help.ubuntu.com/community
<shriphani> so the ubuntu documentation is it ?
<mdke> shriphani: it's a section of the Ubuntu online documentation
<shriphani> hmm cuz philbull asked me to put my currently being written fluxbox docs there.
<mdke> you could work on the existing material at https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Fluxbox
<shriphani> I would rather put it at a different place. I want it to be seen and approved first.
<mdke> shriphani: it will be confusing for users if there are different pages about the same thing, so you should definitely consider improving the existing page; then it can be reviewed
<shriphani> okay.
<shriphani> but if mine's confusing and....
<shriphani> cuz its almost completely different. different style etc. etc.
<mdke> shriphani: what sort of style is it?
<shriphani> I sent a mail to the mailing list with the more tech part attached to it.
<mdke> that's ok; the style is a little bit informal though. You can probably just remove things like "So you are eager to try this thing out. You can't wait and we know it."
<mdke> otherwise it looks fine and should merge ok with the existing page, no?
<shriphani> yeh.
<shriphani> so I just modify the existing page ?
<mdke> i think that's the best way, just improve it, add more information, etc
<mdke> have a look at https://help.ubuntu.com/community/WikiGuide for some tips about style and a general guide
<shriphani> ok.
<shriphani> any particular reason why that page is slow ?
<mdke> shriphani: no
<shriphani> prolly troubles at my end..
<shriphani> I'll put in a bit about the themes for now.
<CIA-18> Ubuntu Documentation: mdke * r4367 common/preface.pot: removing preface.pot, not used by anything that I can see
<CIA-18> Ubuntu Documentation: mdke * r4368 incoming/: removing incoming folder, not been used ever as far as I know
<CIA-18> Ubuntu Documentation: mdke * r4369 teamstuff/artwork/: Again, not used for a long time; can be picked out of old branches if someone wants to use it ever
<CIA-18> Ubuntu Documentation: mdke * r4370 ubuntu/images/: Removing empty directory
* mdke does a bit of spring cleaning
<CIA-18> Ubuntu Documentation: mdke * r4371 generic/dialup/: Unused for several releases, out of date
<shriphani> I umm added to the fluxbox docs a bit..
<CIA-18> Ubuntu Documentation: mdke * r4372 /trunk/ (35 files in 2 dirs): We no longer use author entities anywhere, removing
<CIA-18> Ubuntu Documentation: mdke * r4373 generic/images/C/ (44 files): Not used
<CIA-18> Ubuntu Documentation: mdke * r4374 ubuntu/accessibility/: Deleting accessibility directory, unused
<philbull> hi guys
<shriphani> hello philbull
<philbull> hey shriphani
<mdke> aha, philbull
<philbull> hey mdke
<mdke> philbull: nice. Is it really tidy that is doing that? I was sure it was the moin importer
<CIA-18> Ubuntu Documentation: philbull * r4375 generic/styleguide/terminology.xml: Fix typo (patch by Matt Micek)
<Lhademmor> Hey people, I'd suggest the man should somehow tell that you have to press Q in order to get out of the man - it took me a few days to figure out! :)
#ubuntu-doc 2007-09-16
<juanedr> hi
<juanedr> can you help me?
<juanedr> please..
<CIA-18> Ubuntu Documentation: mdke gutsy * r4376 /: branching for gutsy
* mdke points ^^
#ubuntu-doc 2008-09-08
<EagleScreen> hi
#ubuntu-doc 2008-09-09
<emet> can I join the documentation team?
<seisen> emet, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/Mentoring
<Atamira> and welcome emet
<emet> hi
<kgoetz> hi all. has string freeze set in?
<kgoetz> anyhow. i want to propose this change: http://paste.ubuntu.com/45068/
<kgoetz> i had to google define: the word, and i'm guessing its not an uncommon thing.
#ubuntu-doc 2008-09-10
<technomensch> hi michael
<technomensch> evening all
<kgoetz> hallo
<Old_Soldier> hello
<mdke> kgoetz: no, we have a while before string freeze yet
<mdke> kgoetz: and you're right - I have no idea what aborescence means
<kgoetz> mdke: is that change worth making a bug+patch for, or will you/someone change it?
<mdke> kgoetz: best thing is if you file a bug+patch  and then sommer will sort it out
<mdke> kgoetz: or just poke sommer :)
<kgoetz> mdke: ok. i feel guilty filing a bug when the patch is smaller then the amount of characters transmitted to fix it :)
<mdke> kgoetz: yeah, I know - but it's a technical point so I'd like to make sure sommer is happy with the new phrasing. maybe just poke him on irc
<kgoetz> mdke: i'll poke him here, now, about it.
<kgoetz> sommer: i poke thee! i was hoping you could look at http://paste.ubuntu.com/45068/ and agree that the wrord being removed is utterly stupid.
<wallan> ping: technomensch
<wallan> technomensch: ping!
<technomensch> ping wallen
<sommer> kgoetz: makes sense to me... I'll make the change this evening
<sommer> kgoetz: thanks for the clarification
<kirkland> mdke: ping
<mdke> kirkland: (In case I'm not around at the moment, please provide a bit of information about what you want and I will respond when I get back)
<kirkland> mdke: I'm filing the RT for setting up a reverse proxy on help.ubuntu.com to the manpages
<kirkland> mdke: I like mpt's suggestion of using "manuals", to make it slightly more human readable
<kirkland> mdke: what do you think about "help.ubuntu.com/manuals" ?
<jjesse> kirkland: don't know if my vote counts but i like manuals
<kirkland> jjesse: thanks!
<mdke> kirkland: +1 for manuals
<kirkland> mdke: cool, i'll see what I can do....
<mdke> kirkland: thanks. At some stage it would be great to get together to think about how we can implement a common search across the various parts of help.u.c
<mdke> kirkland: since you've already done a fair bit of work in that direction...
<kirkland> mdke: sure think
<kirkland> sure thing
<kirkland> i can't do it at the moment, though
<mdke> kirkland: whenever works for you, maybe even by email on the list
<kirkland> mdke: that works...  you want to start a thread there?
<mdke> kirkland: sure thing
<doctormo> anyone know tools to write man pages? I'm pulling my hair out with this raw format
#ubuntu-doc 2008-09-12
<Rocket2DMn> im not able to do the search to see what pages are marked with Tags
<Rocket2DMn> which pretty much ruins the point
<Rocket2DMn> or maybe its b/c nothing is actually tagged yet...
<Rocket2DMn> ok it just refreshes the Tag page if you try to search for a tag that hasnt been used yet
<tedg> Hello, I posted a message to the mailing list that is now in the moderation queue.  Could someone forward it through please?
<technomensc1> good afternoon.
<Rocket2DMn> technomensc1, i thought CategoryApplications and related was something Duncan Lithgow created b/c he didn't know about CategorySoftware
<technomensc1> I've lost track
<Rocket2DMn> i tagged the app stuff for deletion
<technomensc1> that's why I brought it to the mailling list
<Rocket2DMn> not everything will have Tags, I think the Tags are only for the doc-team's and other contributors' benefit
<technomensc1> I agree.
<Rocket2DMn> other categories that are based on the page content and purpose should be kept
<Rocket2DMn> to a degree anyway, there are too many, which is what we are trying to slim down
<technomensc1> ::nod:: I was trying to do the best I could with that
<Rocket2DMn> in the table you  made, where you said "Converted Category Links to Tags" - is this like a status column?
<technomensc1> I'd like that to be
<technomensc1> the idea was for the articles that need the docs team tags only
<Rocket2DMn> OK, ill expand on that page a bit, i just got back from the gym, so i need to clean up and eat
<Rocket2DMn> ill ping you when i get back
<technomensc1> if I'm arround.  please feel free.  it was more of a free flowing of ideaas
<Rocket2DMn> can do
<mdke> technomensc1: so, in the section "Documentation Team Categories where no tags currently exist", are you proposing new tags?
<mdke> technomensc1: I think we can discard certainly "CategoryDocumentation" (because the whole wiki is documentation) and the Template related pages, which aren't really categories at all and are a whole different concept
<technomensc1> if there is a kind of agreement, than I was going to move that proposal to the tags page, yes
<technomensc1> fine with me.  you guys have been at this longer than I
<mdke> technomensc1: as for the others, I think they are covered by existing tags, to be honest - I don't think they merit new tags. The more tags we have, the more confusing things are
<mdke> we need to strive to keep things simple, I think
<technomensc1> well I wasn't able to figure out which would correspond with which
<mdke> obviously, if there is genuinely a need for a new tag, we should consider it - is there any in that list that you think are very important and not covered at all by the existing ones?
<technomensc1> to be honest, it was more asking, which to pair up with which tag
<mdke> gotcha
<technomensc1> I needed help
<mdke> ok, let's take them in turn
<mdke> CategoryNoParent - there's no requirement for pages to have parents, so that can go
<mdke> CategoryNotDocumentation is the same as Tag/Moving
<mdke> CategoryDevelopment - ditto
<technomensc1> we have the moving tag
<technomensc1> for between community docs and team docs
<technomensc1> do we need the other way around
<mdke> well, the team wiki doesn't have tags, it's outside our domain really
<mdke> but we use CategoryDocumentation to mark pages on the team wiki which could be moved into the help wiki
<mdke> carrying on down the list...
<technomensc1> rephrase- WERE using till we decided to move to tags :)
<mdke> no, you're not following me
<mdke> the tag system is intended to be used on the help wiki
<mdke> it's not intended to be used on the team wiki
<mdke> for identifying pages in the team wiki which are documentation and which could be moved into the help wiki, we have used (and can continue to use) CategoryDocumentation
<mdke> you're clear on the distinction between the help wiki and the team wiki right? (I ask because a lot of people are confused by the distinction)
<technomensc1> the help community wiki is for technical documentation related to the using of the os
<technomensc1> the team wiki is for how we manage those docs
<technomensc1> and communicate with each other
<mdke> right, and also for all other Ubuntu teams, like the development team, marketing team etc
<technomensc1> ::nod::
<mdke> cool
<mdke> ok back to the list
<mdke> CategoryDiscontinued is the same as Tag/Unsupported (or Tag/Deletion in extreme cases)
<mdke> I think that deals with all of em
<technomensc1> alright.  now, there was a bit of confusion on my part between category software and category applications
<mdke> ok
<mdke> hmm, why have those Debian pages been moved to the help wiki, they totally don't belong there
<technomensc1> I haven't touched them.  I've only been working on this discussion page
<technomensc1> unless you are talking about Reassign/Update/Remove
<mdke> no, nothing to do with you, I just noticed there was a CategoryDebian which isn't needed
<technomensc1> LOL.  yea, I noticed that myself.  I was clueless what we should do with it
 * mdke cleans up
<technomensc1> mind if I quote you on my notes on that page?
<Rocket2DMn> hehe yeah team wiki...
<Rocket2DMn> i mentioned it on the email list last spring, the Beginners Team is using the help wiki to stay organized
<mdke> technomensc1: in which bit?
<Rocket2DMn> the basic structure was already in place when i showed up, so i just expanded on it
<mdke> Rocket2DMn: yeah, I know, the WikiTeam pages are there too, but they should both really be moved
<technomensc1> the category tags
<technomensc1> I mean category titles that we agree weren't needed
<duncan-nz> technomensc1, ping
<Rocket2DMn> mdke, if they really need to be moved, i can work on bringing them over sometime
<mdke> technomensc1: I think the "Documentation Team Categories where no tags currently exist" section can just be removed from that page, to be honest, if you're happy with my explanation above
<duncan-nz> technomensc1, could save the https://help.ubuntu.com/community/CategoryCategory/PageDiscussion so I can correct a small typo?
<mdke> Rocket2DMn: I'd like to do the WikiTeam bit myself, because I've been thinking a bit recently about the best way to do it, and I want to try and blend it in with the DocumentationTeam pages. But if you could do the Beginners Team pages (if that team is happy with it), then that would be great
<duncan-nz> technomensc1, I mean please save that page so I can edit it for a moment.
<mdke> hi duncan-nz
<Rocket2DMn> duncan-nz, i wouldnt worry about typoes at the moment, the pag eis still undergoing a lot of work
<technomensc1> duncan, I need to address the concerns made by me and matt first
<duncan-nz> technomensc1, it's a necessary one to stop out list of categories adding the page to each category.
<duncan-nz> technomensc1, ok
<Rocket2DMn> mdke, ill work on moving the structure in a month or two, the BT needs a big heads up well in advance
<technomensc1> and you removed the checklist which was quite a necessaity to the page
<mdke> Rocket2DMn: yes, that's perfectly understandable
<Rocket2DMn> hey what happened, the page lost the structure we had...
<duncan-nz> technomensc1, when you can a chance please change CategorySoftwareCleanup to ``Category``Software``Cleanup thanks.
<technomensc1> rocket2dmn, that would be me.....
<Rocket2DMn> ok go ahead and do w/e you will with the page
<technomensc1> but I'm still trying to find out who removed the checklist
<mdke> guys, let's get a bit of perspective about this page before we get too attached to it
<Rocket2DMn> technomensc1, i got an email update on the page, i think duncan-nz did
<technomensc1> LOL
<duncan-nz> I've also edited on top of someone about an hour ago. I think the notice that someone else has the page needs to be much clearer! I didn't notice it at all.
 * Rocket2DMn enters perspective mode
<mdke> the reason I tried to play down an attempt to fix a definitive list of categories, is that it's not really possible
<mdke> people introduce new categories on the wiki all the time and there will always be new ones springing up around the place
<mdke> what we need to ensure is that the cleanup Tags that we have introduced can replace the existing cleanup tags, leaving the "subject-matter" tags to develop naturally, as they will
<Rocket2DMn> mdke, agreed, but how do we handle that?  i thought part of the process was to clean out some of those weirder mostly unused tags
<technomensc1> and unused categories that make no sense
<duncan-nz> there are only 20 pages left in the cleanup tags.
<mdke> wow
<mdke> that's cool
<duncan-nz> yup, someone's been hard at work.
<technomensc1> that cannot be right unless he means changing from category cleanup to tag cleanup
<mdke> Rocket2DMn: yes, clearing out won't hurt, but the aim of that discussion page seems to be rather wider than that
<duncan-nz> that's what I mean
<Rocket2DMn> yeah, i think one of our issues is that we don't have a description of _exactly_ what it is that we are trying to do
<Rocket2DMn> difficult to have a proposal without a mission
<duncan-nz> oh, sorry I wrote tags, I meant CategorySoftwareCleanup and CategoryApplicationsCleanup - not quite the smae at all...
<mdke> Rocket2DMn: how about this - "to add the various Tags which we have to the pages that they apply to" :)
<Rocket2DMn> duncan-nz, i would tag those two categories with the new ContentCleanup tag, sinec we are getting rid of CategoryCleanup, too
<technomensc1> I thought that was the original plan all along
<Rocket2DMn> mdke, yes, but also to clean shop on the existing Categories that they are replacing
<duncan-nz> Rocket2DMn, ok
<Rocket2DMn> duncan-nz, check with mdke on my suggestion
<mdke> Rocket2DMn: i don't understand the concept of tagging a category page :)
<mdke> (re your suggestion)
<technomensc1> LOL.  here is my thought process and let's see if we are on the same page.....
<Rocket2DMn> mdke, arent we trying to get rid of the usage of CategoryCleanup and CategoryNeedsExpansion in favor of tags
<duncan-nz> Rocket2DMn, I've just been using tags and deleting the link to Category$somethingCleanup
<mdke> Rocket2DMn: yes, absolutely right
<mdke> duncan-nz: also right
<Rocket2DMn> duncan-nz, +1
<mdke> ah, we still have 300 pages in CategoryCleanup, I misunderstood duncan-nz earlier when he referred to 20 pages
<Rocket2DMn> I think right now CategoryCleanup is a bit heavy, i will have the BT wiki FG start helping with that
<technomensc1> and that was why I had put the checklist on the discussion page.  so we could track when we had finished converting the categorylinks to tags
<duncan-nz> mdke, my statement was misleading
<Rocket2DMn> lets sideline CategoryCleanup for right now
<mdke> duncan-nz: I've got it now :)
<mdke> technomensc1: there isn't a need for a checklist... you just look at the Category page and it shows you how many pages it has left in it, or am I misunderstanding your objective?
<Rocket2DMn> NeedsExpansion is much smaller, those can be converted to the Needs Expansion tag
<technomensc1> would everyone agree that we need to finish with the tagging before we even think about categories?
<duncan-nz> Hej I'm off to bed. But it's great to be able to see and help with some real progress aon the http://help.ubuntu.com/ wiki
<Rocket2DMn> gnight duncan-nz , thanks for stopping by
<duncan-nz> technomensc1, perhaps, but the page we're playing on now is about categories.
<mdke> night
<duncan-nz> night all.
<mdke> technomensc1: well, part of the exercise is to remove the category label when you add the tag, but I think I know what you mean
<duncan-nz> (I'm in denmark so it is actually late)
<mdke> I agree that we should forget about "subject-matter" categories for now
<Rocket2DMn> technomensc1, they are tied together, the Tag system was created to replace some of the Categories because categories arent as visible or descriptive
<technomensc1> ::nod:::
<Rocket2DMn> so here's how i see it:
<mdke> ok, we're on the same page right now
<Rocket2DMn> 1) replace all CAtegoryNeedsExpansion pages with Needs Expansion tag - this we can do immediately
<technomensc1> same with categorydeletion
<technomensc1> and categorymoving
<Rocket2DMn> 2) have a wiki admin go through and delete the appropriate pages under CategoryDeletion - all future deletion requests should go under the Deletion tag
<mdke> Rocket2DMn: hold for a sec
<Rocket2DMn> (please be careful not to delete pages that link to deletion but arent marked ot be removed)
 * Rocket2DMn holds
<mdke> that's helpful. While we're on it, let's just identify all the other categories that fall under your (1)
<technomensc1> mdke, would you be willing to go onto the Tag page and demonstrate what we were talking about regarding which category corresponds to which tags
<mdke> yep, let's make a list
<mdke> so, needsexpansion
<mdke> moving
<Rocket2DMn> mdke, CategoryCleanup will fall under it, but it is so large that i think we can wait until we have the rest under control
<mdke> Rocket2DMn: no, sorry
<Rocket2DMn> no?
<mdke> in (1), we're talking about categories which exactly correspond to a tag
<mdke> i.e. the easy bit
<Rocket2DMn> mdke, those do
<mdke> right, so we'll come on to CategoryCleanup later
<mdke> I just want to make a list of (1) categories
<technomensc1> that's the hardest, so that's last
<Rocket2DMn> in fact CategoryCleanup matches a few tags - Content cleanup, Style Cleanup, Unsupported Version, and Page Too Long
<mdke> yes, exactly. that's why I said hold so we can talk about the easy ones
<Rocket2DMn> ok good, we're on the same page then
<mdke> so, NeedsExpansion, Moving, Discontinued, NotDocumentation all correspond to existing tags. Any others?
<mdke> I'm writing this down so we can have a little plan of action
<technomensc1> getting back to your list.....shouldn't you also post the categories to remove, like noparent,development,discontinues
<Rocket2DMn> thats another step technomensc1
<mdke> yes, that can be (3)
<mdke> anything else for (1)?
<Rocket2DMn> is somebody recording this on the PageDiscussion right now?
<technomensc1> oh, we're still talking about 1
<mdke> Rocket2DMn: I'm writing it down
<Rocket2DMn> groovy
<technomensc1> well there was the obvious deletion mdke
<technomensc1> that's not on your list
<mdke> yes, let's add that
<mdke> any others?
<Rocket2DMn> can you list the ones you have please
<technomensc1> the library here closes in about 20 min, so that's what I've got left
<mdke> 22:33:28 < mdke> so, NeedsExpansion, Moving, Discontinued, NotDocumentation all correspond to existing tags. Any others?
<mdke> +Deletion
<mdke> technomensc1: that should be about right :)
<technomensc1> at this moment, that's all I can think of.  any more and I'll send to the mailing list
<Rocket2DMn> not documentation -> moving tag?
<nixternal> whoa it is the mastah himeself!
<nixternal> how's it going mdke?
<mdke> Rocket2DMn: yeah
<mdke> nixternal: good thanks, you?
<Rocket2DMn> ok lets move on then
<nixternal> busy busy busy :)
<nixternal> work is killing my time
<mdke> :)
<technomensc1> step 2 is getting rid of the doc categories that are pointless......
<mdke> Rocket2DMn: ok, go ahead with your (3)
<technomensc1> what about 2
<Rocket2DMn> what was 3 going to be?
<mdke> ok, timeout
<Rocket2DMn> lo
<technomensc1> LOL
<Rocket2DMn> i think you combined 1 and 2
<mdke> Rocket2DMn's (2) was the Deletion tag, which we've dealt with
<mdke> so (2) disappears into (1)
<Rocket2DMn> ok
<mdke> anyone crosseyed yet?
<Rocket2DMn> so now, new (2)
<technomensc1> getting there
<mdke> new (2) it is. that's technomensc1's one
<Rocket2DMn> 2 = page content categories
<Rocket2DMn> yes?
<technomensc1> no
<Rocket2DMn> :confuseded:
<mdke> (2)Removing unwanted Categories
<Rocket2DMn> right
<technomensc1> categorynoparent, notdocumentation, development,discontinues,template, etc....
<Rocket2DMn> ok lets expand on that
<technomensc1> we already did
<Rocket2DMn> i think we want to keep Template (is this used)
<technomensc1> you were taking a shower
<Rocket2DMn> oooh
<Rocket2DMn> wait i read that
<mdke> we should keep Template
<mdke> it's part of Moin's way of handling stuff, rather than one of our categories
<technomensc1> fine with me
<technomensc1> ok
<technomensc1> works for me
<Rocket2DMn> there is CategoryTemplate and DocumnetaitonTemplate
<mdke> NoParent is a definite gonnar
<technomensc1> was just about to ask that rocket
<mdke> NoDocumentation and Development and Discontinued are part of (1), so they don't count
<Rocket2DMn> i think we want to keep the first one
<mdke> Rocket2DMn: they are two totally different concepts
<Rocket2DMn> oh ok
<technomensc1> I see what he means
<technomensc1> but can we rename them.....
<Rocket2DMn> what about CategoryDocumentaiton?
<mdke> any page ending in "Template" appears in the left hand menu when you create a new page, to allow you to use a template
<mdke> CategoryTemplate is a page which lists all Templates
<mdke> Rocket2DMn: good one
<Rocket2DMn> delete that one mdke ?
<mdke> yeah
<mdke> others?
<Rocket2DMn> +1
<technomensc1> so mdke, you'll explain on the tag page which tags go with nodocumentation/development/discontinued back in (1), right?
<Rocket2DMn> there are quite a few we can delete, i had my suggestions listed, but it got removed
<Rocket2DMn> CategoryUbuntu804 and its subpage?
<technomensc1> rocket, I think I moved them, not deleted them...check the diff
<mdke> technomensc1: I'm going to do it in a separate document that I'll post on the mailing list
<technomensc1> wrong topic rocket
<technomensc1> that's like 4 or 5
<Rocket2DMn> oh, ok...
<mdke> haha, this is total mayhem. I think we can leave 804 until another day
<technomensc1> agreed
<mdke> when we have implemented proper version tags
<Rocket2DMn> is version tags one of our numbered things on the to-do list today?
<mdke> Rocket2DMn: no. we need to add some software to the wiki first, which sommer wrote
<Rocket2DMn> ok
<mdke> so, any more for (2)?
<Rocket2DMn> we might need to expaond on 2 when we have a definitive list
<mdke> I see the list on the Discussion page
<mdke> but I think that's a bit ambitious for now
<technomensc1> rocket, #2 is only for the docs team tags for now
<mdke> let's leave the issue of "subject-matter" categories until later
<technomensc1> and the categories we don't need
<Rocket2DMn> ah ok
<mdke> although, please remove CategoryHomepage from that table - we probably need that for the time being
<technomensc1> not up to subject yet.  we can't do subjects until we know what we ourselves are doing
<mdke> alright, (3) is CategoryCleanup, right?
<Rocket2DMn> ok
<mdke> ok, I can sketch that out. I think 3 is enough
<mdke> anything we've missed?
<Rocket2DMn> for CategoryCleanup, the pages marked with that need to be removed from the category and assigned appropriate Tag (there are a few that apply)
 * mdke nods
<technomensc1> the only thing is distinguishing between appcleanup and softwarecleanup
<technomensc1> and how did that get duplicated?
<Rocket2DMn> yeah thats part of the content stuff technomensc1
<Rocket2DMn> or is it
<Rocket2DMn> duncan did that i think
<Rocket2DMn> b/c he didnt know about the Software stuff
<technomensc1> how about anything that is either one, just tag as cleanup for now
<technomensc1> and we'll worry about application or software afterwards
<technomensc1> when we hit the content stuff
<Rocket2DMn> actually Application and Software stuff is a mess, i looked through those yesterday, there are a string of pages pointing you to other pages, some of those which we are trying to get rid of in favor of tags...
<mdke> yes, we should discuss that on the mailing list
<mdke> I think it's pretty difficult to make out a case for a rational distinction between "Application" and "Software", but duncan seems to have an idea, so we'll see what he has to say
<technomensc1> if he can ever get the emails....didn't he complain about that.  can't he check the archives on the site?
<Rocket2DMn> he just didnt know, so the CategoryApplications and CategoryApplicationsCleanup are to be removed
 * mdke shrugs
<Rocket2DMn> duncan created CategorySoftwareCleanup to replace CategoryApplicationsCleanup
<Rocket2DMn> b/c CategorySoftware already existed
<technomensc1> as of right now, categoryapplicationscleanup and softwarecleanup just get those cleanup tags
<mdke> now I'm really crosseyed
<technomensc1> and get category links revmoed.  that would be my recommendation
<Rocket2DMn> mdke, exactly
<technomensc1> backtracking....
<mdke> but we made some good progress, I'll write it up and post it
<technomensc1> may I take the speaking stick?
 * Rocket2DMn listens
<technomensc1> as of right now, regarding software and applicationcleanup....just tag them with the cleanup tags or more content, or whatever tags fit the best.
<technomensc1> leave the categorysoftware or applicationcleanup links
<technomensc1> so we can find them later
<technomensc1> or change them to just categorysoftware or categoryapplication...ya, that's better
<technomensc1> <<can't think
<Rocket2DMn> i would rename CategoryApplicaitonsCleanup to CategorySoftwareCleanup
<technomensc1> and I think just change it to categorysoftware with a cleanup tag
<Rocket2DMn> same for CatregoryApplicatiosn->CategorySoftware
<Rocket2DMn> move in baby steps essentially
<Rocket2DMn> then we can get rid of the Applications* categories
<technomensc1> and THEN move to tagging, good idea
<Rocket2DMn> then tag CategorySoftwareCleanup with the appropriate Tag and remove the Category
<technomensc1> will be longer, but make more sense
<technomensc1> agreed
<technomensc1> any seconds?
<Rocket2DMn> technomensc1, i would have liked to do it in one swoop, but after looking through it yesterday, its just too confusing
<technomensc1> I agree with you completely rocket
<technomensc1> we need to see what we have before we can do anything with it
<technomensc1> and on that note, I have to bid you both farewell.  I think this was very productive.  pleasure working with both of you
<Rocket2DMn> thanks technomensc1 same to you
<mdke> me too
<mdke> cheers
<Rocket2DMn> ok mdke, after you put the outline on the wiki, we can get started
<Rocket2DMn> its Friday, take your time :)
<mdke> Rocket2DMn: cool, thanks. Cya
<Rocket2DMn> ill be around if you need to chat more, just ping me.  we got some good work done, 100x faster than over email, hehe
#ubuntu-doc 2008-09-14
<mdke> morning all
<technomensc2> hey Matt.....
<mdke> technomensc2: hi
<mdke> my irc client hilights on Matt, but in general, best to use people's nicknames to make sure they see you callin
<technomensc2> ::nod:::
<technomensc2> understood
<technomensc2> hope you don't mind, but I bumped up the category to tag on our to do list and linked to it from the mian wiki todo list
<mdke> no, that's great, thanks
<technomensc2> From the looks of things, we might be able to completely remove discontinued and noparent by the end of today
<mdke> cool
<technomensc2> the lengthy part will be categorydocumentation, and integrating them into the main help wiki
<technomensc2> as well as the clenaup effort
<technomensc2> it looks liike duncan has been tagging like a mad person :)
<mdke> hmm, I can't see that on RecentChanges. I wonder if something is wrong with it
<technomensc2> before I touch anything, have you been working on moving the wiki team stuff to the wiki.???  I vaguely remember hearing you say something about it
<mdke> yeah, but I'm still turning it over in my mind a bit
<technomensc2> want me to leave it alone then rather than do the move?  I was thinking it might be easier to do the move after the links for the categories have been fixed up
<mdke> well, I'm not sure whether some pages should stay in the help wiki or not
<mdke> also, how to handle potential broken links
<technomensc2> I would think items, maybe like the todo list, should be moved, and who the docs team is, but items like the tags, formatting, and style, those are debatable as to which they belong in
<technomensc2> :::nod:::
<technomensc2> broken links will be a pain
<mdke> oh, the tags and WikiGuide can't really be moved
<technomensc2> understood
<technomensc2> that would affect the backend coding, I'm guessing
<mdke> well, the Tag system relies on being in the same wiki as the pages they are used on
<technomensc2> what I'm wondering is if we should come to some idea/conclusion on what to do with the hardware before we have people moving, editing, updating, and changing the wiki content/tags
<technomensc2> it might save us time, effort, and energy
<mdke> I don't think one depends on the other, they strike me as unrelated.
<technomensc2> allow me to explain.....we have a LOT of articles that are tagged for cleanup, expansion, moving, etc within wiki.
<technomensc2> all hardware related
<technomensc2> why move/alter them twice or three times
<technomensc2> iesp if we decide not to keep them in the wiki at all
<mdke> well, there is a big difference between pages which describe how to get a particular piece of hardware working
<mdke> and pages which just tell you if something is supported or not (which is what I understand the "separate website" idea to be)
<mdke> or have I misunderstood?
<technomensc2> we hadn't come to any agreement or discussion about it.
<mdke> let me put it another way
<mdke> rewrite the last parenthesis as (which is what I understand https://wiki.ubuntu.com/HardwareSupport to be)
<mdke> it's certainly not true that documents about hardware have *no* place on the help wiki, of course they do
<technomensc2> I agree completely.....
<mdke> but information about whether hardware works or not, and no more, is what could be hived off onto a separate website
<mdke> that would just be a database with a nice front end
<technomensc2> and it might even allow the dev/qa to get better bug info?
<technomensc2> who knows
<mdke> yeah, definitely
<technomensc2> should I just send an email to their mailing list?
<mdke> yeah, that's the way to go. The idea would be to drum up some interest in making that sort of database/website
<technomensc2> kk
<mdke> bbl
<technomensc2> kk
<duncan-nz> Does anyone know what the 'Ubuntu Style Guide' is? I've found a few things but nohting which looks like what's refered to here: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Tag#Style%20cleanup%20required
<nellery> duncan-nz, http://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/StyleGuide
<duncan-nz> So it's okay if I change the page to refer to the 'Documentation Style Guide' and link it to there?
<nellery> duncan-nz, that would be a good idea
<duncan-nz> OK, will do.
<technomensc2> mdke, you back?
<mdke> yeah
<technomensc2> For some reason, I had the spur of an idea and was curious as to your thoughts: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Home/PageDiscussion
<mdke> technomensc2: well, I prefer the existing layout I think. But you could put the idea to the developers I suppose: the main changes are to the structure of their teams
<technomensc2> well, like you pointed out, I learned from the mistake I made with the community home page by making it a page discussion instead :)
<mdke> heh
<technomensc2> YO, rocket...
<mdke> Rocket2DMn: ^
<Rocket2DMn> hi what
<mdke> I think that technomensc2 was trying to attract your attention
<Rocket2DMn> it would help if he used my whole name, good timing too, i literally just sat down (going back and forth from the TV)
<mdke> 21:07:09 < mdke> my irc client hilights on Matt, but in general, best to use people's nicknames to make sure they see you callin
<technomensc2> LOL.  rocket2dmn....the pages that you are marking for deletion with tags
<mdke> technomensc2: you need to use the whole nickname
<technomensc2> are you removing the "category" link too?
<mdke> and if you press "TAB" while typing, your irc client should complete the name for you
<technomensc2> unless I'm using pidgin, which kinda sucks for irc :)
<mdke> surely TAB works on pidgin too?
<technomensc2> well whatcha know
<technomensc2> learned something new
<Rocket2DMn> technomensc2, no i havent switched pages previously marked with CategoryDeletion to using tags, since they can just ... be deleted
<Rocket2DMn> the pages i marked with Tags i dont think ive really removed from categories
<technomensc2> well, the reason I would recommend removing the tag....is so we don't double work
<technomensc2> I mean...removing the category link
<Rocket2DMn> ah, well if you see a Deletion tag, its a dead giveaway
<Rocket2DMn> you hav ea specific example?
<technomensc2> yea, but I'm going down the link of pages linked to categorydeletion
<technomensc2> I had one a moment ago
<technomensc2> when I find it, I'll let ya know
<technomensc2> but I've been removing the links so that we know how many pages we have left, or not
<Rocket2DMn> everything in CategoryDeletion can just be deleted (unless the page says DONT DELETE)
<Rocket2DMn> i dont see a lot of point in switching pages already marked with CategoryDeletion over to the Deletion Tag
<Rocket2DMn> since thye are just going to be wiped out
<technomensc2> actually, we first have to go through them to make sure they don't break any other links
<technomensc2> the tagging right now is just to get rid of the cateogry
<Rocket2DMn> i think most of the pages in CategoryDeletion are safe to be deleted, i didnt personally mark all of them tho, so no guarantees
<technomensc2> agreed
<Rocket2DMn> lets chat in 1/2 hour technomensc2 , im finished watching Tombstone :)
<Rocket2DMn> technomensc2, ping
<Rocket2DMn> technomensc2, https://help.ubuntu.com/community/MountingWindowsPartitions/ThirdPartyNTFS3G - why did you add those tags?  and why did you clean off CategoryThirdPartySoftware CategoryWindows
<technomensc2> ooops.  I was getting a little quick on the trigger finger I guess.  I didn't realize I removed those categories.  sorry about that
<technomensc2> and it had the cleanup category, and I couldn't judge which one on a glance
<Rocket2DMn> it wasnt on categorycleanup....
<technomensc2> I was only removing the categorydeletion, categoryexpansion, and categorydocumentation labels
<Rocket2DMn> ah you ran into b/c of categorydocumentaiton
<technomensc2> ::nod:::
<technomensc2> I had a couple of tabs open at once.  need to slow down.....
<technomensc2> I had just finished cleaning up the tags/categories for category deletion, and in the process of just putting the right tags on for "expansion"
<technomensc2> I would like to see categoryexpansion, categorydeletion, and categorynoparent either bet fully transferred to the tag system, or deleted hopefully within the next 48 hours.
<Rocket2DMn> looks like duncan is using categrydeletion as well as the tag
<Rocket2DMn> either way, i wouldnt bother trying to wipe out categorydeletion, technomensc2 .  mdke or another damn just needs to find the time to take care of those pages
#ubuntu-doc 2009-09-07
<dhillon-v10_> starcraftman: hi how are you
<starcraft-ntbk> hi there dhillon-v10_
<starcraft-ntbk> not bad, working on my backup wiki section, I seem to have singlehandedly volunteered to maintain the HUCs backup docs.
<dhillon-v10_> I am working on some of the debian stuff like this one of their to-do list
<dhillon-v10_> just a sec.
<starcraft-ntbk> dhillon-v10_: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/DriveImaging My current work, part of backupyoursystem. Still rough, have to clean it up.
<dhillon-v10_> nice I am making a poll for people who use various parts on documentation and then submitting it so people can improve quality of stuff that's being used the most
<starcraft-ntbk> dhillon-v10_: ah, I see, got a draft somewhere?
<dhillon-v10_> http://spreadsheets.google.com/viewform?formkey=dE9DWlpOQ1hwVlhWTm5Ca2ZFejJBR2c6MA..
<dhillon-v10_> the dot part is in the link
<dhillon-v10_> .. one
<dhillon-v10_> no nevermind
<dhillon-v10_> so what do you think
<starcraft-ntbk> dhillon-v10_: neat, shouldn't ya have multiple choices though in a poll? Say wiki, man pages, additional docs, built in help? Also, debian eh, poll just for them or also Ubuntu?
<dhillon-v10_> well that was in their to-do list do you guys want that too I can make one it take about 3 mins.
<dhillon-v10_> so should I make one for Ubuntu and submit it to the docs mailling list
<starcraft-ntbk> dhillon-v10_: Oh I wouldn't know, I'm not a senior doc member ya know, might wanna ask mdke the lead or rocket, they kinda run the show and set priorities. We got a to do list, lemme find ya....
<dhillon-v10_> do you think it is a good idea to just make one and then email rocket
<starcraft-ntbk> dhillon-v10_: I dunno, don't think it was requested at any meeting I attended... I'd ask first. Also, this is one of the to do pages I believe, > https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/WikiCleanup
<dhillon-v10_> I found it :) I think I can actually do the indicator-applet part
<starcraft-ntbk> dhillon-v10_: ah, link so I know which one? We got it kinda spread out.
<dhillon-v10_> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/SystemDocumentation/Tasks
<starcraft-ntbk> dhillon-v10_: ah good yes, thats one page. Wiki team has another page for community docs work, but you prefer system docs eh?
<dhillon-v10_> I don't know anyone would work
<dhillon-v10_> * anything
<starcraft-ntbk> dhillon-v10_: It's part of beginners team pages, but ya don't need to join, we overlap with docs team. > https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BeginnersTeam/FocusGroups/Wiki
<starcraft-ntbk> dhillon-v10_: see current happenings. On keep track of work page, we post pages in real need of rewrite, or use tags to narrow it down.
<dhillon-v10_> alright, thanks
<dhillon-v10_> right now I got some homework so talk to you later
<dhillon-v10_> bye
<starcraft-ntbk> dhillon-v10_: later
<yeager> why do some ubuntu-docs link to library.gnome.org for certain information? that information is already in user-guide-xx
<dhillon-v10> j1mc: hi
<starcraftman> dhillon-v10: hey there, not much atm, relaxing, been doing wiki work.
<dhillon-v10> starcraftman: my idea had a really bad start
<starcraftman> dhillon-v10: Ah, no biggie, and I'm on ml, I watch most exchanges, guess I do more talking on IRC so not a huge sender on them.
<dhillon-v10> starcraftman: yah I didn't think properly about the idea before putting it up
<starcraftman> dhillon-v10: plenty of other ways to get started, just pick any task on doc or wiki list and get going. Or maybe make a proposal for something based on rockets feedback, some sort of button or simple feedback means like reddit up down. Most people don't wanna fill huge survey when just using wiki for a bit.
<dhillon-v10> starcraftman: yah I learned that the hard way :) I am writing documentaiton for indicator applet as there wasn't any preset
<dhillon-v10> * documentation
<starcraftman> dhillon-v10: yeah, do most pages by hand, but will learn faster that way. Wiki doesn't have it much better, the templates don't seem to be maintained by any person in particular.
<dhillon-v10> starcraftman: I have learned a lot from you thanks
<starcraftman> dhillon-v10: no worries, that's what I'm here for :)
<dhillon-v10> starcraftman: how should I present ideas without making a fool out of myself
<starcraftman> dhillon-v10: most people write up a proposal page on a wiki for an idea. Lemme find an example...
<starcraftman> dhillon-v10: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/starcraft.man/Sandbox/Secret > My proropsal for beginner team, not part of docs separate.
<dhillon-v10> starcraftman: that was definitely smart I didn't think of anything like that
<starcraftman> dhillon-v10: another nice example > https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CommunityCouncil/Delegation/Proposal
<starcraftman> dhillon-v10: putting on a wiki lets other contribute, put a discussion section at end, see source of either for pointers.
<starcraftman> dhillon-v10: then ya can always point people to link, either on ml or IRC.
<dhillon-v10> starcraftman: so wiki is the right place to write proposals alright I will do that from now
<starcraftman> dhillon-v10: ensure the name is descriptive and indicates what section it belongs to, or simply use a sandbox of your homepage like, starcraft.man/Sandbox as url.
<dhillon-v10> starcraftman: okay, I think that the polling idea wasn't liked by anyone here so I will modify it to something that is more suitable
<dhillon-v10> starcraftman: can you give me any ideas on that
<starcraftman> dhillon-v10: read connor's mail, had good ideas, some sort of built in + or - button that users could easily use to rate pages, would be nice. Might be a bit more involved, don't exactly know how it'd be worked. I just use markup, not edit backend.
<dhillon-v10> starcraftman: I have a coding for that did that for my school website a little time ago would that work
<starcraftman> dhillon-v10: put it ina  proposal then, though you might want to consult rocket and mdke before posting to ml. The backend I know is MoinMoin, so look it up and see.
<dhillon-v10> starcraftman: thanks again for your help, you can solve difficult problems easily :)
<starcraftman> dhillon-v10: I'm in an engineering program, I'd hope I'm good at problem solving.
<dhillon-v10> starcraftman: nice I didn't know that I am in my junior year in high school
#ubuntu-doc 2009-09-09
<mpt> Hi, is there any way within a help file I can tell whether the environment is Gnome or UNR?
<mpt> well, gnome-panel or UNR, more precisely
<mpt> Anyone awake in this channel? :-)
<mpt> I'd like some help with cross-reference links if possible
<alourie> mpt: awake, yes :-)
<mpt> Specifically, how do I link from an application's standalone help file to the Gnome "Customizing the Panel Menubar" help page?
<alourie> I'd guess it would need to be a link to yelp
<shaunm> mpt: in general, to link to another document, use ghelp: URIs
<shaunm> but conditional stuff, like determining what desktop you're running under, not possible
<mpt> shaunm, I have no idea what the ghelp: URI for that page is, or how I'd find it out, or which DocBook linking element I'd use.
<mpt> Is it <xlink>?
<shaunm> ulink
<mpt> oh, no such thing as xlink, I was thinking of xref
<shaunm> ghelp:user-guide?some-id
<mpt> ok, ulink, thanks
<shaunm> to link to a page in the user guide.  you'll have to look at the user-guide xml to find an id to use
<mpt> ok, found the file, goseditmainmenu.xml
<mpt> <section id="menu-editor">
<mpt> So, <ulink url="ghelp:menu-editor">repeat the title of the page</ulink>
<mpt> aha, <ulink url="ghelp:user-guide?menu-editor">Customizing the menu bar</ulink>
<mpt> thanks muchly shaunm
#ubuntu-doc 2009-09-12
<avi1> exit
<dhillon-v10> Rocket2DMn: hi, what's up
<Rocket2DMn> hi dhillon-v10
<Rocket2DMn> not much, watchin football and doing some forum support
<dhillon-v10> Rocket2DMn: nice, I am writing some docs. that Phill commented on before
<dhillon-v10> Rocket2DMn: it was a rough draft of gnome-display
<Rocket2DMn> yeah i saw those emails
<Rocket2DMn> both phil and dougie made some good points
<DWonderly> creating the Docs for UNR...
<DWonderly> what all goes into that?
<Rocket2DMn> I don't know
<Rocket2DMn> I haven't written any docs from scratch, and I don't know much about UNR
<DWonderly> I use the UNR as my main system...
<DWonderly> hence my question... hmmz
<Rocket2DMn> i have a UNR install on my laptop, but i dont user the UNR interface anymore, it got in the way more than making things easier
<Rocket2DMn> its not a netboot, so i have some screen space to spare
<DWonderly> yeah, I have a netbook
<DWonderly> Anyone have an ETA when the Wiki will be back online?
<DWonderly> NM working n ow
#ubuntu-doc 2009-09-13
<lukjad007> DWonderly I'd say about 40 minutes ago ;)
<DWonderly> lol lukjad007
<lukjad007> :D
 * DWonderly needs to sit down and learn doc stuff
<dhillon-v10> starcraftman: hi how are you
<starcraftman> I go well, been doing some java and watched a movie today :)
<dhillon-v10> ah I am really good at Java and also I am taking it at school
<dhillon-v10> hey I need to ask you: what would you look for in a display manager guide
<starcraftman> hmmm, I dunno, if its a graphical guide I usually include some screenshots. At least a few for illustration.
<dhillon-v10> identify vikram123
<terry> Is anybody there?
<Madpilot> sort of
<terry> I am trying to install Ubuntu for the first time and when it come to scanning the disk it reports the disk as sda rather than hda?
<Madpilot> sda means it's a SATA device
<Madpilot> for a regular HDD
<Madpilot> usb keys and such are also sd*
<terry> SATA is not the same as an IDE disk is it?
<Madpilot> no - IDE/ATA is the old wide ribbon cables, SATA is the newer standard with narrow cables
<terry> That's not what I have.
<Madpilot> almost all modern HDDs are SATA
<Madpilot> hmm
<terry> This is an older Maxtor 40GB disk.
<Madpilot> now that you mention it, I think Linux is now reporting all drives as sd*, even IDE stuff. don't quote me, though
<terry> The Ubuntu 9.04 installation documentation still indicates that sda refers to the 1st SCSI disk, and hda refers to the 1st IDE disk.
<Madpilot> that might be out of date
<Madpilot> "new "stuff" in Feisty called libata and this makes all IDE drives seen as sda" - from an old Ubuntuforums post I just found, and this jives with what I recall
<terry> I guess I'll assume the install knows what it is doing and proceed with the installation. How do I get the "guided" partitioning so I can put /var, /home, ... on separate partitions?
<Madpilot> probably best to ask in #ubuntu for that
<terry> Abd how do I do that?
<Madpilot> I'm the wrong person to ask, as it's been over a year since I did a from-scratch install of Ubuntu - and that was onto an oddball LVM setup :)
<Madpilot> "/join /#ubuntu" w/o the ""
<Madpilot> sorry, lose the / in front of #ubuntu
<Madpilot> "/join #ubuntu"
<terry> Thanks
<dhillon-v10> hi rocket
#ubuntu-doc 2010-09-13
<shaunm> any quickshot people around?
<shaunm> hmm, I guess #ubuntu-manual is better
#ubuntu-doc 2010-09-16
<cjohnston> Is there anyone around who could take a few minutes and work on updating the Contributions page for the doc team please? https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CommunityContributePages#Documentation%20Authors
#ubuntu-doc 2010-09-17
<cjohnston> mdke: ping
<mdke> cjohnston: (In case I'm not around at the moment, please provide a bit of information about what you want and I will respond when I get back)
#ubuntu-doc 2010-09-18
<mdke> cjohnston: hey
<cjohnston> hey mdke !
<mdke> hey cjohnston
<cjohnston> how goes
<mdke> not bad, you?
<cjohnston> little tired.. just got off work
<mdke> ouch
<mdke> you work nights?
<cjohnston> I work 24 hours at a time
<mdke> whoa
<mdke> time for bed then :)
<cjohnston> lol
<cjohnston> bbiaf
#ubuntu-doc 2010-09-19
<Jordan_U> I wrote a specification page on the wiki a few weeks ago but I can't find the page anymore. How can I tell if/why it was deleted (my username is jordanu)?
<zkriesse> gimme a sec..do you remeber what the page was about?
<zkriesse> and which wiki was it
<zkriesse> https://wiki.ubuntu.com or https://help.ubuntu.com/community
<zkriesse> Jordan_U: ?
<Jordan_U> zkriesse: It was a specification for making restoring grub after a windows install easier, and I think it was wiki.ubuntu.com but I'm not sure. I didn't realize they were separate, which may be the entire problem.
<zkriesse> Yeah the wiki.ubuntu.com is for ubuntu teams/projects
<zkriesse> help.ubuntu.com/community is where all the help pages go
<zkriesse> If you need wiki advice please don't hesitate to gimme a ring...i'm a wiki guru/nut/admin so I can help ya out if you need it
<Jordan_U> zkriesse: Thanks for the offer.
<zkriesse> No problem
<Jordan_U> zkriesse: Is there a way to just view what pages I've authored / edited?
<zkriesse> Ah like a list?
<zkriesse> I dont know for sure...i'd think there would be but I don't remember
#ubuntu-doc 2011-09-14
<kelemengabor> hi folks, can anyone tell me if there are any Ubuntu-specific changes to the gnome-user-docs package which justify it being translated in Ubuntu?
<kelemengabor> I opened bug #849847 about this
<ubot2`> Launchpad bug 849847 in ubuntu-translations "Cleaning up gnome/ubuntu help templates" [Medium,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/849847
<kelemengabor> If things are the way I think, we can reduce the number of Ubuntu-specific help templates to 1, which would be great :)
#ubuntu-doc 2011-09-15
<DBO> anyone here that can approve UIFe?
<DBO> (I hope its not a social faux pas to ask...
<DarkwingDuck> UIFe?
<DarkwingDuck> mdke_: ping
<mdke_> DarkwingDuck: (In case I'm not around at the moment, please provide a bit of information about what you want and I will respond when I get back)
<DarkwingDuck> mdke_: Do you know any of the other members of the doc team that are going to be in Orlando next month?
<DarkwingDuck> Also, if there are any members of the doc team that are active... can someone branch lp:kubuntu-docs and tell me the current revision?
<DarkwingDuck> Mine says 226 and LP reports 228
<gord> hey hey, anyone around? unity is currently waiting on a UIFe for https://bugs.launchpad.net/unity/+bug/844889 - but we haven't heard anything back from the doc team yet, its going to block a release if we don't hear anything back soon so any chance we can get some progress there?
<ubot2> Ubuntu bug 844889 in unity "UIFe: Dash - Shape and positioning of most of the elements in the Dash need adjustment (Part 2)" [Medium,In progress]
<DarkwingDuck> mdke_: ping
<mdke_> DarkwingDuck: (In case I'm not around at the moment, please provide a bit of information about what you want and I will respond when I get back)
#ubuntu-doc 2011-09-16
<mdke_> DarkwingDuck: I don't know about UDS
<mdke_> DarkwingDuck: lp:kubuntu-docs currently has 244 revisions
<DarkwingDuck> mdke_: I got it figured out.
<DarkwingDuck> also, I uploaded kubuntu for translation.
<mdke_> DarkwingDuck: I figured you would have but wasn't quite sure how long ago you'd asked!
<DarkwingDuck> mdke_: Yeah, it was a while. :) I'll be at Orlando, was thinking of hosting a Documentation session if someone was there to help me with Mallard and Ubuntu side.
<mdke_> DarkwingDuck: not me but go ahead and ask on the mailing list in case others will be
<DarkwingDuck> mdke_: Will do.
<czajkowski> DarkwingDuck: go to bed
<DarkwingDuck> Posting my laptop to craigslist unless you know someone who wants a mobile workstation. (Lenovo W700)
<mdke_> hah
<DarkwingDuck> czajkowski: No.
<DarkwingDuck> :P:P
<valorie> lol
<czajkowski> DarkwingDuck: *mutters* kids these days
<pleia2> is j1mc coming to UDS?
<czajkowski> pleia2: you too!
<pleia2> :)
<czajkowski> pleia2: sent you a mail there from a UK contact looking to talk to someone from Uw and DW
<mdke_> DarkwingDuck: I'm going to activate kubuntu-docs for translation on the upstream project, as that is what we do with ubuntu-docs; you then just need to update the pot file and commit to bzr, it will import it automatically without you needing to upload
<czajkowski> you do both if not pass to someone else in UW and I'm giving a talk in London
<pleia2> czajkowski: I saw, thanks, I might forward them on to someone else for DW but I'll see what they're interested in
<czajkowski> right work
<czajkowski> toodle pip folks
<mdke_> cya czajkowski
<DarkwingDuck> mdke_: Ahhh, mdke https://translations.launchpad.net/ubuntu/oneiric/+source/kubuntu-docs like this?
<mdke> DarkwingDuck: no, that's the kubuntu-docs package in the ubuntu project
<mdke> DarkwingDuck: like this - https://translations.launchpad.net/kubuntu-docs/natty
<DarkwingDuck> ahhhh
<DarkwingDuck> Got ya.
<DarkwingDuck> The pot files have been updated.
<mdke> the oneiric series should be set up shortly I hope
 * mdke also needs to rush off too, bye all
<DarkwingDuck> ty
<DarkwingDuck> Okay, posted. Now it's time for bed.
<DarkwingDuck> night all.
#ubuntu-doc 2012-09-14
<sladen> mdke et al:  There's been a request to restore the Medium/Medium Italic into Ubuntu's .deb for the font https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ubuntu-font-family-sources/+bug/1048600
<ubot2> Launchpad bug 1048600 in ubuntu-font-family-sources "[FFe] Restore "Ubuntu Medium" weights in Ubuntu's binary .deb" [Wishlist,Confirmed]
<sladen> any applications that handle advanced fonts badly (ie, more than the simple four  Regular/Bold/Italic/Bold-Italic/ will break with other advanced fonts anyway (ie. Linux Libertine)
<sladen> however, it does not appear to affect any screenshots of existing applications
<sladen> mdke_: this isn't a case of adding new stuff, but of restoring something that is in the main source package, but not built in the binary .deb
<sladen> and was previously in the distro
<sladen> would you be able to comment on the bug report if there's likely to be any issues?
<bkerensa> sladen: I don't see any cons so far looking through screenshots now
<bkerensa> I will ping jbicha when he is on
<sladen> bkerensa: ta, thanks for looking
<Mirv> just a note that I added "UIFe" also to the title of bug #1043915 I e-mailed about yesterday
<ubot2> Launchpad bug 1043915 in unity "UIFe/FFe: Home lens ordering" [Medium,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1043915
#ubuntu-doc 2012-09-16
<knome> mdke_, hey! once you have time, i'd like to talk about the xubuntu docs (i hear Rocket2DMn already was in touch with you about them)
#ubuntu-doc 2013-09-13
<bkerensa> godbyk: good morning
<godbyk> bkerensa: Hey, Ben.
<godbyk> bkerensa: Hopefully my arguments didn't seem to pushy.
<bkerensa> godbyk: I just noticed serverguide is lacking a debian path
<bkerensa> godbyk: nah its fine if lyz approves then I respect that
<godbyk> bkerensa: What needs to be done to fix that?
<godbyk> I have to confess I haven't been paying much attention to the serverguide side of things.
<godbyk> (I've been leaving that to Doug for the most part.)
<bkerensa> godbyk: I will see peer reviews though and I need to generate a debian path for serverguide so it complies with packaging rules
<godbyk> bkerensa: What's a 'debian path' and what do we need to do to create one?
<bkerensa> so since Ubuntu is a Debian based distro
<bkerensa> it has to follow Debian Policy on packages
<bkerensa> which requires all packages to have a debian folder
<bkerensa> that has contents that follow debian policy
<godbyk> Oh! You're just referring to the debian folder that contains all the control files and whatnot for creating a .deb package?
<bkerensa> http://www.debian.org/doc/manuals/maint-guide/dreq.en.html
<godbyk> Has the server guide ever been packaged?
<bkerensa> I see why
<bkerensa> its not packaged
<godbyk> I don't see a package for it in 13.04, at least. It must just be published on help.ubuntu.com.
<godbyk> So I guess the question becomes: should we be packaging it?
<bkerensa> no it seems its just merged in to help
<godbyk> Okay.
<pleia2> probably a good question for the server team, ubuntu desktop help is obviously a useful shippable thing, but server docs? I don't want server docs on my server :)
<bkerensa> pleia2: you dont want man? :P
<pleia2> talking about the server docs that this team creates specifically (as for man, it depends on the server, but usually not!)
<godbyk> bkerensa: pleia2 is so good she doesn't need man. :)
<pleia2> my servers are for working and serving things, I look up docs on other machines
<godbyk> pleia2: same here.
<pleia2> which is why I say it's a good discussion for doug and the server team
<godbyk> Agreed. I'll email Doug and see if they're interested in packaging serverguide.
<bkerensa> godbyk: there would be nothing to packaged since its just files that get pushed to the web
<bkerensa> lacking a man there would be no need to package it
<pleia2> some packages ship .html files that you can browse in /usr/share/doc
<godbyk> bkerensa: Well, we could package the HTML files and/or the PDF. Just as we package the .page files for the desktop help.
<pleia2> I figure this would be similar
<godbyk> pleia2: Yeah, exactly.
<bkerensa> anyways
<bkerensa> pmatulis would be the person to ask
<bkerensa> notably doug suggested he waited a long time for that MP... it was just ten days and I asked pmatulis to review it and he did so within two minutes of me asking
<bkerensa> that kind of turnaround would not even happen for normal dev reviews
<bkerensa> :)
<bkerensa> I wake weeks for a review of normal ubuntu packages
<bkerensa> and they have people doing reviews daily as a work requirement
<godbyk> bkerensa: Nice. Okay, I'll chat with Doug and Peter and see if they're interested in having a .deb package for serverguide.
<pleia2> thanks godbyk :)
<godbyk> No problem.
<godbyk> bkerensa: Did you decide on a deadline for docs?
<bkerensa> godbyk: I do not get to decide :) doug wants to push till freeze although considering translation barely got done last cycle even with us finishing at freeze
<bkerensa> I thought it might be good to give translations team as much time as possible
<bkerensa> especially if lots of changes occur between cycles
<godbyk> bkerensa: I agree with giving the translations team as much time as we can, but I think we're too far behind on this cycle with the English docs.
<godbyk> I wouldn't want them to spend time translating bad documentation.
<bkerensa> Especially since I imagine more non-english speakers are reading docs then english speakers
<bkerensa> but thats just a guess
<godbyk> So I vote for sticking with the original doc string freeze date.
<godbyk> For 14.04 we can look at moving it up a bit earlier in the release cycle possibly.
<godbyk> (We can't move it up too much because the UI still changes fairly late in the cycle.)
<godbyk> My hope is that after we get synced with the upstream GNOME docs during this cycle that there will be a lot fewer merges to contend with for 14.04.
<godbyk> Then we can focus on proofreading and fixing other bugs and adding more Unity-specific docs.
<pleia2> godbyk: +1
<bkerensa> godbyk: its important to be sure we are heavily reviewing the GNOME doc you are merging in too... although we do use some gnome apps they also are gearing their doc for a different desktop environment then ships in Ubuntu
<bkerensa> also
<bkerensa> the desktop team makes significant changes to quite a few packages that we carry from GNOME
<bkerensa> so features may not be the same as they are upstream
<godbyk> bkerensa: Yeah. I have to change some of their 'select blah from the blah activity' to 'click on the gear icon and select system settings' quite a bit.
<bkerensa> Our freeze date is Thursday though
<godbyk> bkerensa: Thankfully a lot of those changes were merged into the upstream GNOME docs so that work is already done.  I do catch a few that weren't fixed upstream, though.
<bkerensa> and I will let translations know to begin at midnight UTC on Thursday
<godbyk> bkerensa: Yeah. I've been trying to check for differences as I go along, but I won't have time to do all of it before the string freeze.
<godbyk> bkerensa: Sounds good.
<godbyk> I'm going to continue to merge in upstream GNOME docs.
<bkerensa> k
<godbyk> I've been trying to add notes to the spreadsheet when pages require extra review (e.g., if the upstream docs differ too much from our own).
<godbyk> While Ubuntu/Unity modifies some GNOME apps a bit, the upstream GNOME docs are still considerably more accurate and up to date than the existing Ubuntu docs.
<littlegirl> godby: What kind of help do you need as far as proofreading is concerned?
<godbyk> So most of the merges are a net win.
<godbyk> littlegirl: If you'd like, you can proofread the pages that I've already updated.
<littlegirl> godbyk: Okay, where is a list of those?
<godbyk> littlegirl: There are a few pages that I've flagged in the spreadsheet that will need more careful merging. So I'm ignoring those on this first pass. I'll revisit those after I've finished the rest of the easy merges.
<godbyk> littlegirl: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AsSw0cKYcffNdFlFakF5M0VjR002UEVvakVPZGpydHc#gid=0
<littlegirl> I'm not sure how to work that list. How do I find the pages it references?
<godbyk> littlegirl: Anything that has my name as a reviewer (Kevin Godby) will likely have a comment stating if I merged upstream docs or not. Anything that I've made merges to, feel free to proofread.
<godbyk> littlegirl: The pages refer to the files in the bzr repository. But they also correspond to the html pages.
<littlegirl> godbyk: I've only ever worked on kubuntu docs. What's the path to the ubuntu docs for my command?
<godbyk> littlegirl: Unfortunately, I don't have a live snapshot of the html pages at the moment. I'll see if I can create one soon.
 * littlegirl prefers bzr to html. (:
<godbyk> littlegirl: Otherwise, if you check out the bzr repository, those files are in ubuntu-help/C/.
<godbyk> littlegirl: And you can view them rendered by running 'yelp blah.page'.
<godbyk> littlegirl: bzr branch lp:ubuntu-docs/saucy
<littlegirl> Thanks! I'll take a look. I don't use Ubuntu, but I can be useful for grammar, punctuation, clarity of instructions, etc. (:
<littlegirl> godbyk: Do you guys use Mallae or DocBook?
<godbyk> littlegirl: Thanks! I'll take all the help I can get! :-)
<godbyk> littlegirl: We're using Mallard.
<littlegirl> godbyk: Okay, I'll see what I can do. (:
<godbyk> It's a bit simpler than docbook. It's still XML-based, though.
<pleia2> btw, I added this section to our getting involved docs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/SystemDocumentation/UbuntuDesktopGuide#Building_html_version_of_the_docs
<pleia2> in case anyone does want to bulid current .html version
<godbyk> littlegirl: After you've proofread a document, go ahead and add your name to one of the reviewer columns in the spreadsheet. If there were no errors, make a note in the comments field to that effect.
<littlegirl> I saw your comments in the mailing list, which is what got me looking into this. Apparently I'm one of the 13 people you referenced who isn't approving merge proposals, and I didn't realize until now that I had such power. I've always been one of the people who made the proposals. (:
<godbyk> Nice! Thanks, pleia2.
<pleia2> littlegirl: hah, yeah, I think because you're a key kubuntu docs contributor :)
<godbyk> littlegirl: Ha! No worries. There haven't been too many merge proposals to worry about.
<littlegirl> godbyk: Okay, thans - will do. Do I need to be logged in somewhere to do that or can anybody edit that spreadsheet?
<pleia2> anyone can edit
<godbyk> littlegirl: Anyone can edit it.
<godbyk> If you can't, let me know and I'll try to fix it.
<littlegirl> pleia2: Was. I haven't done much this time around. It's all kind of confusing right now because they're changing it. I was nicely settled in with DocBook and bzr. (:
<godbyk> littlegirl: Are they switching to Mallard?
<littlegirl> godbyk: No, they're switching to the wiki, interestingly enough, in an effort to make the documentation more enticing for any user to edit (since a lot of people don't know DocBook or Mallard or BZR). Then they want to have a smaller set of docs still on the LP server that will go into the distribution itself, but I'm really not sure what's what on it yet, and have just kind of gone in and edited anything I see that needs fixing.
<littlegirl>  (:
<godbyk> littlegirl: Ah, okay. Interesting. You'll have to keep me posted on how that works out for you guys.
<littlegirl> godbyk: I think it's Aaron Honeycutt and Valorie... don't know her last name, that are working on it.
<godbyk> I'd like to find ways to make it easier for people to contribute to ubuntu-docs, too, but that'll have to wait until after 13.10, I think.
<godbyk> It'd be nice if people could easily suggest improvements, point out errors, etc. without having to go through the hassle of filing a big bug report and all that.
<godbyk> And many people who are interested in helping with documentation aren't so interested in learning obscure markup languages. :-)
<littlegirl> godbyk: Well, you guys have it right in using Mallard, since that is much easier to learn than DocBook, and I think all you need is some very simple instructions for anyone to follow in order to get them up and running with doing direct edits. (:
<godbyk> I agree that Mallard is easier than Docbook. Docbook has *so many tags* to learn.  :)
<littlegirl> godbyk: Agreed, and I believe they recently updated to a new version which is quite different and makes it awfully hard to verify the tags, and I don't think Ubuntu or any of its derivatives upgraded to it (probably for that reason). (:
<littlegirl> godbyk: Do you guys use LP blueprints to keep track of merges?
<littlegirl> Or just the spreadsheet?
<godbyk> littlegirl: At the moment, I'm just the spreadsheet.
<godbyk> littlegirl: The Ubuntu docs were last updated for 12.10, so we're behind a bit. Our workflow is a bit haphazard this cycle while we rush around to get things up and running again.
<littlegirl> godbyk: Not a problem. I just like to know what's where and what I need to edit or reference. (:
<littlegirl> godbyk: I used to have to do http://paste.ubuntu.com/6102646/ every time I pushed a change to the LP server with bzr. Do I have to do anything like this with the Ubuntu documentation or is this sort of thing no longer necessary since I now have godly documentation powers? (:
<godbyk> littlegirl: Ha! Well, you can still follow that procedure if you like. It's the more proper way to do things, I suppose.
<godbyk> littlegirl: But if it's a simple change, you can just commit it directly yourself.
<godbyk> littlegirl: I'd recommend running "ubuntu-help/C/check_validation.sh blah.page" before committing, though, to ensure you didn't introduce validation errors.
<godbyk> (Something I've been guilty of!)
<godbyk> I get emails whenever someone commits to the repository, so I skim over those to see what changes were made.
<littlegirl> godbyk: Okay, sounds good, and I'll definitely do the validation. (:
<godbyk> I have to run off for a meeting now. I'll be back in about three hours.
<godbyk> littlegirl: If you run into any problems or have any questions, feel free to ask in this IRC channel or email the list at ubuntu-doc@lists.ubuntu.com.
<godbyk> littlegirl: Thanks for your help!
<littlegirl> godbyk: Okay, will do. Thanks for your help, too! (:
#ubuntu-doc 2013-09-14
<littlegirl> Hey there, I committed a change to the Ubuntu docs and am not sure if I did it wrong. If you look at lines 28 and 29 of http://paste.ubuntu.com/6104367/ you can see that it says it created a new stacked branch. I included the commands that lead up to it so you can see what I did. Any help is appreciated. (:
#ubuntu-doc 2014-09-09
<pmatulis> is this the starting point for people who are new to translations?
<pmatulis> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/Translation
<pmatulis> btw, i could not see any link to this page from home:
<pmatulis> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam
<pmatulis> other than the index link at the bottom
<GunnarHj> pmatulis: No. There is a whole section about translations in general: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Translations
<pmatulis> grr, we might want to take a look at that then.  it's confusing.  are translators not part of the Doc Team?
<pmatulis> maybe we should just remove the first page i gave
<GunnarHj> pmatulis: Of course they are not automatically. Translators translate everything; docs is just a small subset of it.
<pmatulis> GunnarHj: ah that makes sense
<GunnarHj> pmatulis: I don't think that page should be removed. It clarifies a few docs specific things.
<pmatulis> GunnarHj: alright then
<GunnarHj> pmatulis: Not saying that it cannot be improved, though...
<GunnarHj> pmatulis: It *really* needs an update.
<pmatulis> GunnarHj: i'm wondering if we should be making an effort to bring in a rep from the translations team to our meetings
<pmatulis> or at least maintain some form of contact with them
<pmatulis> they always seem so remote from us
<GunnarHj> pmatulis: I'm in ~ubuntu-translations-coordinators; think I can cover that aspect.
<GunnarHj> Don't think a translator not involved in docs writing would stand our meetings. ;)
<pmatulis> GunnarHj: maybe not a meeting.  it would be nice if someone could give an overview of how our docs get translated
<GunnarHj> pmatulis: Not sure what level you are talking about. These are the main steps, common for both ubuntu-docs and serverguide:
<GunnarHj> * A translation template (.pot file) is created/updated
<GunnarHj> * Once it has been committed, Launchpad imports it automatically into Rosetta
<GunnarHj> * Translators translate
<GunnarHj> * We export the translations (.po files) manually and update the branch.
<GunnarHj> * The html docs are built using the updated translations.
<GunnarHj> There are a few additional things related to the ubuntu-docs package.
<GunnarHj> Please ask if there is anything particular you would like to know more about.
<pmatulis> GunnarHj: that's good stuff.  it should be added to our Doc docs somewhere if not already there.  what i am really interested in are the details to step â¢ (translators translate).  what is the actual workflow?
<GunnarHj> pmatulis: It's pretty much documented (but far more detailed) at
<GunnarHj> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/SystemDocumentation/Repository/Members-Serverguide
<GunnarHj> I hope that #3 is covered somewhere at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Translations/ ...
<GunnarHj> Basically there are two ways:
<GunnarHj> * Either you translate directly using the Launchpad interface
<GunnarHj>   https://translations.launchpad.net/serverguide/trusty/+translations
<GunnarHj> * or you download a .po file for your language, add your translations and
<GunnarHj>   upload the modified file.
<GunnarHj> The *detailed* workflow varies between the different translation teams.
<pmatulis> GunnarHj: ok, thanks a lot for this info
<GunnarHj> pmatulis: yw
<dsmythies> pmatulis: (Note: I only saw up to the last hour mark on the web page log of this) If you want to know more about translations, you should do a couple of string corrections. Note an issue that would be fixable by someone that maybe doesn't speak the language, during compile and then go and find it and fix it in the translations stuff. Within reason, I do this every release cycle, but often give up as there are just too many transation re
<dsmythies> pmatulis: I was thinking of doing a .pot .po cycle for the 14.04 serverguide so as to pick up translations done since the initial release for publication on help.ubuntu.com. (recall our e-mail thread). Do you want to do that together?
<pmatulis> dsmythies: yes
<pleia2> dsmythies: btw, I didn't mean to imply you didn't do your due diligence, I just didn't dig far enough into bug reports and as a wiki admin I felt responsibility to make sure everyone was heard from
<pleia2> sorry if it came off differently
<dsmythies> pleia2: Oh, thanks for chiming in. Really, I should have mentioned in the first place that the issue was also annoying for the release team (well, Colin at least).
<dsmythies> pmatulis: While we can do it together, only one of us can do the content push. Let's start with the .pot file update. I'll go off and make sure my bzr branch is up to date (I think it is). I suggest you do the .pot file update as per https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/SystemDocumentation/Repository/Members-Serverguide#Updating_the_.pot_file and I'll get it later via another bzr pull. Lets use Italian as the reference, because it 
<dsmythies> pmatulis: reference: https://translations.launchpad.net/serverguide   (but click on "View all languages")
<pmatulis> dsmythies: you want me to do stuff right now?
<dsmythies> pmatulis: When you have time. Maybe we should move this to an e-mail thread, as we will both probably have avialability gaps. I for one will be out of time for now very soon. By the way, I made a mistake above, the Italian untranslated number should change as a results of the .pot file update, but only after database delays.
<pmatulis> dsmythies: yeah this is not a good time for me.  i need to run and pick up my boys from school
<dsmythies> pmatulis: How about if I do the .pot file? Then the database delay sutff can occur and we'll go from there.
<dsmythies> pmatulis: Good thing I checked my bzr branch, as Gunnar did a slight revision a couple of days ago.
<pmatulis> dsmythies: i'd like to do as much as possible.  can we start an email?
<dsmythies> pmatulis: Switching to e-mail. O.K. I will not do the .pot file, but rather wait for you.
<pmatulis> dsmythies: thank you so much
#ubuntu-doc 2014-09-11
<ahoneybun> Hello reporting from ubucon at fossetcon
<pmatulis> thanks ahoneybun
#ubuntu-doc 2014-09-12
<slickymasterWork> damn connectivity
#ubuntu-doc 2014-09-14
<ahoneybun> hey pleia2
#ubuntu-doc 2015-09-07
<pmatulis> ahoneybun: no
#ubuntu-doc 2015-09-09
<GunnarHj> dsmythies: I just forwarded a "delivery status notification" to you alternative email address.
