#ubuntu-mobile 2007-09-03
<dholbach> good morning
<Kaleo> Hi
* dholbach hugs asac
<asac> huh?
* asac hugs dholbach
<dholbach> hey asac - how are you doing? :)
<asac> dholbach: great! my state is: in the middle of a wonderful day :)
<dholbach> sounds very good :)
<asac> i hope you doing at least as good today ;)
<asac> when did you return? sunday?
<dholbach> saturday
<dholbach> yeah, I'm quite happy :)
<adam_b> anyone know if the HildonDesktopManualProcedure should work? seems to fail to install hal[d]  and then wont proceed any further
<Mithrandir> hm, no, it will only partially work, you can work around this by doing printf '#!/bin/sh\nexit 101' > /usr/sbin/policy-rc.d ; chmod 755 /usr/sbin/policy-rc.d then retrying.
<adam_b> Mithrandir: cool, next I'm trying to follow GladeWithPythonForUMEHildon gets as far as having a menu item but python cannot find the module hildon
<Mithrandir> that's probably correct, since it's not yet in Ubuntu, only in the moblin.org repository.  It's on the plate for this week
#ubuntu-mobile 2007-09-04
<notserpe> where can I get an samsumg q1 ultra on the cheap for development (seed units anyone?) or a mid or umpc hardware?
<dholbach> good morning
<dholbach> hey Mithrandir
<dholbach> hey seb128
<Mithrandir> hiya Daniel
<seb128> hey dholbach
<dholbach> how's it going guys?
<Mithrandir> busy as always, but otherwise good.
<seb128> same for me
<seb128> dholbach: what about you?
<dholbach> same here
<dholbach> myriads of mails, stuff to do
<Mithrandir> jetlag has mostly subsided by now, though
<mdamt> What command to run an application so that the application has the same theme with the system?
<mdamt> In scratchbox we usually use run-standalone.sh, what is the counterpart in UME?
<asac> mdamt: if the app obeys gtk/gnome theming then you don't need to do anything special (afaict)
<mdamt> If I run it directly from terminal, say mousepad, the theme is not the same.
<mdamt> Fonts are smaller and the gtk widgets color is grey.
<Peter_u2> mdamt, you have to do manually afaik. 
<Peter_u2> do following: export GTK2_RC_FILES=/usr/share/themes/mobilebasic/gtk-2.0/gtkrc:/usr/share/themes/mobilebasic/gtk-2.0/gtkrc.maemo_af_desktop
<mdamt> Ah... cool. Thanks, that does it.
<Peter_u2> welcome
<mdamt> I wonder why UME's hildon-1 also defines MAEMO_CHANGES.
<mdamt> I have a patch for upstream at https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=823
<asac> how can i upgrade my image-creator created chroot? is it just apt-get dist-upgrade?
<asac> or do i need to start from scratch every other day to get the latest moblin.org packages?
<asac> nevermind ... found out by trial ;)
<Mithrandir> asac: just use apt
<asac> Mithrandir: yeah found out ;) ... thanks
<asac> hmmm i dist-upgrade got stuck with:
<asac> Unpacking replacement pidgin-data ...
<asac> Error in select() Selecting previously deselected package libhesiod0.
<asac> known?
<Mithrandir> is /dev/pts mounted?
<asac> inside chroot its not shown as mounted
<asac> i started the terminal from image-creator
<Mithrandir> try mounting it and trying again
<asac> but its mounted
<asac> devpts on /srv/chroots/mid1/targets/browser-test/fs/dev/pts type devpts (rw,gid=5,mode=620)
<Mithrandir> ok
<Mithrandir> no idea then; try finding out why it hangs
<asac> i had to hit "return" to go on ... doing dist-upgrade now and see if its still reproducible
<asac> "return" == "enter"
<asac> Mithrandir: anything special we need to get fixed for NetworkManager in ume?
<Mithrandir> asac: it seems to generally work.  We need a new UI, but that's an intel deliverable.
<asac> ok
<Mithrandir> they might want your input on it, though
<asac> what chipset are the devices we want to support?
<asac> marvell is in 2008 i guess
<asac> yes ... i am currently on a nm-fix-spree ... so better raise issues now ;)
<Mithrandir> we'll be seeing various kinds, but I know some people are going with madwifi, some are going with wext-based marvell
<asac> madwifi is something i still feel a bit scared about
<Mithrandir> it seems to work fine on the q1
<asac> i think we still use madwifi driver in wpasupplicant ... but should probably go for wext there as well.
<asac> hmm
<asac> madwifi-ng?
<Mithrandir> no idea.  Whatever's the default
<mdamt> About the theme, are you going to use the hildon's gtkrc as-is or do you have plan to modify it?
<asac> Mithrandir: ok if you see any issues or instability, let me know (the earlier the better)
<Mithrandir> asac: will do.
<Mithrandir> mdamt: we'll be modifying it, I believe.  You'll probably want to talk to kwwii_ about it.
<mdamt> I have this thingy which relies on some parts of hildon's gtkrc...
<Mithrandir> morning agoliveira 
<Mithrandir> agoliveira: any chance you could take a poke at getting galculator hildonised?
<agoliveira> Mithrandir: Good morning. That was weird, I was about to call you :)
<agoliveira> Mithrandir: Sure, I can take a look.
<mdamt> Do you have some list of apps which needs to be hildonised?
<agoliveira> mdamt: Not all of them needed to be hildonized but we do have a list of applications here https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileAndEmbedded/UserApplications
<mdamt> I see.
<agoliveira> mdamt: and some discussions about this happens from time to time (there's one right now) on our mailing list. Feel free to poke around.
<Mithrandir> agoliveira: thanks.
<agoliveira> Mithrandir: No problem. Let me ask you something. I need to create a metapackage to install the applications already done. Any pointers you can give me?
<Mithrandir> agoliveira: they should just be added to ubuntu-mobile.
<mdamt> Are we going to have the same package name which installs for UME and normal Ubuntu?
<agoliveira> Mithrandir: Ah.. I see. I'll check it out then. Thanks.
<Mithrandir> yes
<Mithrandir> mdamt: ^^
<mdamt> Cool. So the thing differs only the architecture?
<Mithrandir> yes, lpia is "i386, but prefer hildon, and use a bit different optimisation flags for gcc"
<mdamt> Ok. That's sweet.
<agoliveira> mdamt: The packages on that arch (lpia) are using hildon interface and on the others, normal GTK or whatever they normally use but the sources are the same.
<agoliveira> mdamt: Better, will be using :) We're still working on it.
<mdamt> Btw is the GTK2_RC_FILES exported somewhere, so my app can just source it from there?
<agoliveira> Mithrandir: For the meta-package, I just added the applications already built into mobile-lpia. Is that all?
<Mithrandir> agoliveira: no, you need to adjust the seeds.  Changing the package directly doesn't work
<agoliveira> Mithrandir: Fine. Any pointers I can use?
<Mithrandir> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SeedManagement
<Mithrandir> (but you don't have commit access, so it's better if I just change it for you)
<agoliveira> Mithrandir: Sure. Thanks.
<Mithrandir> what's the list of apps you want added?
<agoliveira> For now: claws-mail
<agoliveira> stardict
<agoliveira> tasks
<agoliveira> contacts-snapshot
<agoliveira> cheese
<agoliveira> ekiga
<agoliveira> fbreader
<agoliveira> Mithrandir: I have to go lunch now but I'll check you schedule as soon as I get back.
<Mithrandir> agoliveira: I'll just make stardict a recommends for now, and I thought we decided on not having ekiga there?
<Mithrandir> also, why not claws there?
<agoliveira> Mithrandir: Sorry, I just got my loist of apps and forgot to remove ekiga. Claws is the, on the first line I sent. The package is called claws-mail.
<agoliveira> /sloist/list
* agoliveira is a little dilexic today, I guess
<Mithrandir> ah
<Mithrandir> claws added
<agoliveira> Mithrandir: Cool. Thanks.
<agoliveira> Mithrandir: I got galculator half way done, just need to figure out why the menus are not showing up yet but it's working nicely and it's big enough to use with the fingers.
<agoliveira> (at least on the Q1, of course :) )
<Mithrandir> that's good.
<dholbach> mjg59: is bug 127273 good to go now?
<mjg59> dholbach: SHould be ok
<mjg59> I haven't had time to look it over properly, though
<mjg59> Do feel free to upload it if it's not obviously insane
<dholbach> I'd prefer to leave you time for looking at it to be honest. :-)
<smagoun> Looks like the Poulsbo xorg driver requires EXA v2.2, but only EXA v2.1 is available in UME? As a result, EXA doesn't work on crown beach. Anyone seen this?
<smagoun> I have xserver-xorg-video-psb 0.2.1-1ubuntu2 and xserver-xorg-core 2:1.3.0.0.dfsg-12ubuntu2.
<amitk> smagoun: bryce should be able to answer that for you
<smagoun> amitk: thanks
<amitk> bryce: smagoun: Looks like the Poulsbo xorg driver requires EXA v2.2, but only EXA v2.1 is available in UME? As a result, EXA doesn't work on crown beach. Anyone seen this?
<amitk> (08:45:51 PM) smagoun: I have xserver-xorg-video-psb 0.2.1-1ubuntu2 and xserver-xorg-core 2:1.3.0.0.dfsg-12ubuntu2.
<bryce> I can doublecheck but I believe we had -psb working properly.  Perhaps this newer xserver broke something?
<bryce> did you have it working with EXA on a previous version of xserver?
<bryce> there is a 12ubuntu3 I'm in the process of uploading, and 12ubuntu4 and 12ubuntu5 in the wings, which have various fixes for the exa functionality
<smagoun> bryce: I thought we had it working with exa before, but i'm not 100% sure. EXA 2.2 is new in xserver 1.4 (1.3.99.x), I assume that's not part of the plan for gutsy though.
<bryce> how are you determining that it requires exa v2.2?
<bryce> is it working with XAA?
<smagoun> xorg.log has the message "driver's EXA version requirements (2.2) are incompatible with EXA version (2.1)", and then a message to the effect that EXA isn't being used
<smagoun> (plus, performance is atrocious - choppy animation, slow scrolling, etc)
<smagoun> I tried XAA by adding "Option AccelMode XAA" to the PSB device in my xorg.conf, but a message in the x log said that line was ignored.
<bryce> smagoun: yeah unfortunately we decided not to do 1.4.  Also I'm not comfortable backporting exa 2.2
<bryce> ok, 12ubuntu3 has just uploaded
<bryce> if the current exa performance issues are just recent (as I suspect they are - this sounds like an issue others reported), then the 12ubuntu4 upload may fix them, as it includes a big mesa 7.x update and stuff that addresses performance issues some of my testers have reported
<bryce> so please give 12ubuntu3 a test for now.  I am hoping to have 12ubuntu4 up in a couple days; let me know if the problem is still there after that
<smagoun> bryce: thanks. The problem seems to be that EXA isn't being used at all though - so fixes won't make a difference. Or am I misinterpreting the Xorg log?
<bryce> I'm not totally sure
<bryce> if it's the case that -psb just will refuse to run with exa 2.1, and that these fixes don't improve it when running with xaa, then I'm not certain what we'd do in that case
<smagoun> bryce: Thanks for the help. I'll file a bug then rebuild the driver against exa 2.1 to see what happens.
<bryce> ok cool
<lucasr> yo
<CharliefJohnson> bryce: Please let me know if you have an issue with the version of EXA that is being support.  
<bryce> CharliefJohnson: can it be made to use EXA 2.1?
<bryce> since we won't have EXA 2.2 for Gutsy, that would solve the issue
<CharliefJohnson> bryce:  I'll ask and get back to you.  EXA is something I'm not too familiar with.
<bryce> ok thanks
<smagoun> bryce: I filed bug 137346 on the Poulsbo EXA mismatch: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/xserver-xorg-video-psb/+bug/137346
#ubuntu-mobile 2007-09-05
<dholbach> good morning
<mdamt> What's the input method situation? I read in the spec that it will use onBoard, but it seems that mb-keyboard is used?
<Mithrandir> yes, we're using matchbox-keyboard at the moment.
<mdamt> Any plan to change it?
<Mithrandir> not really, unless something better comes along.
<mdamt> Ok, hope this something can come out this week :-)
<Mithrandir> oh, anything interesting happening which I should be aware of?
<mdamt> Well something about input method. We're trying to get it out this week. Watch planet.maemo.org :-)
<Mithrandir> sounds interesting.
<Mithrandir> asac: for #129469 to be fixed, do I need to do anything more than change the build-depends and configure.ac?  It doesn't seem like midbrowser-dev ships any shlibs?
<asac> Mithrandir: carl wanted to look into it ... i haven't tried, but he claimed changing build-depends and configure.ac causes crashes
<Mithrandir> asac: ok, anyway I think midbrowser-dev should ship a shlibs so packages built against it ends up having a dependency on it?
<asac> Mithrandir: we don't have soname versioned libs
<asac> if it still works i can add it ... 
<asac> and the libs are installed in pkglibdir as well
<asac> Mithrandir: the main thing about all this is that upstream doesn't support using the shared libs directly ...
<Mithrandir> I've read a little bit about it.  I think upstream are approaching this wrongly, but it's not a fight I'm willing to take on.
<asac> Mithrandir: the upstream way is to use a static glue which will find and load the proper gecko runtime engine for you
<asac> Mithrandir: right ... however we have now xulrunner-1.9 the upstream way and firefox build on top ... and indeed appears to work well
<Mithrandir> ok, but we don't want xulrunner 1.9 and firefox both in main, AIUI?
<asac> no ... thats just for preview (gutsy+1)
<asac> but it shows that it works well and that debian claims that its sooo bad are mostly wrong
<Mithrandir> so what do you think is the approach we should take?
<asac> Mithrandir: i think the crashes we see are because LD_LIBRARY_PATH is not set for the panel
<asac> Mithrandir: and basic flash is just a .so right?
<asac> Mithrandir: however carl said if you run the panel with LD_LIBRARY_PATH extended by midbrowser path .... then the whole panel crashed
<asac> ... which i find a bit scary ... if you can do a build an verify that extending LD_LIBRARY_PATH really crashes it then i can take a look.
<asac> but i always hoped that intel would go ahead and put some effords in it as well :)
<Mithrandir> I won't have time for that today, but I could look at it later this week, sure.
<Mithrandir> I'll put in on my list of stuff to debug
<asac> you don't need to debug ... i just want a senior confirming that behaviour before i start looking into it :)
<asac> if the panel really crashes though ... i would appreciate some hints why it might crash when just adding /usr/lib/midbrowser to LD_LIBRARY_PATH ??
<Mithrandir> I'd probably do it by adding an rpath for midbrowser to the .so instead, wouldn't that be better?
<asac> Mithrandir: that probably won't work ... as the lib you load wants to load more libs that don't have the rpath set
<asac> Mithrandir: the only option that would work is to link against all libs explicitly
<asac> (only option with LD_LIBRARY_PATH and without using static glue)
<asac> s/with/without/
<Mithrandir> mhm
<Mithrandir> ugh, but ok.
<Mithrandir> I'll just test with LD_L_P set
<asac> feel free to test rpath as well ... its just that i tried it for something else (can't remember exactly what it was) ... and I ended up linking all libs explicitly
<asac> Mithrandir: my image-creator installed chroot is broken atm ... 1. the application menu is so huge that it doesn't fit on screen and if i click on the application switcher arrow in panel it crashes ... is that known?
<asac> Mithrandir: http://people.ubuntu.com/~asac/screen1.png
<Mithrandir> the second one is known, the first one I didn't know about.-
<Mithrandir> s/-//
<asac> its a fresh image (created about 14 hours ago ... and just dist-upgraded)
<asac> Mithrandir: currently everything is run as root ... how will this be in the end?
<Mithrandir> that's on my list of stuff to fix this week
<asac> oh cool
<Mithrandir> kwwii_: have you looked at the UI for dates and tasks and contacts?  At least some people like the openmoko screenshots better than the maemo ones; do you know how much of this can be done with theming and what'll require code changes?
<Mithrandir> kwwii_: or if you have any suggestions as to what the UI should look like.
<Mithrandir> kwwii_: I'm not asking you to whip up something, just wondering if you'd already looked at it and had some thoughts.
<kwwii> Mithrandir: I have never seen the openmoko stuff but I can take a look
<Mithrandir> http://www.pimlico-project.org/dates.html has some screenshots.
<kwwii> Mithrandir: the openmoko stuff looks much similar
<kwwii> erm
<kwwii> simpler
<kwwii> but I think that most of that is coding, not theming from the looks
<Mithrandir> ok; I guess the shiny buttons and such is just theming though
* Starting logfile irclogs/ubuntu-mobile.log
<dholbach> asac: if you have the time, could you check out the bugs on http://daniel.holba.ch/sponsoring that have 'asac' next to them? most of them should be easy to review, I think
<asac> dholbach: yes will upload ... for network-manager we probably don't want that fix
<asac> but i am assigned so i will work this out
<dholbach> asac: or just comment on the bug
<dholbach> so the patch author knows what to fix or that it's not the right thing for gutsy
<asac> done.
* dholbach hugs asac
* agoliveira finally got me menus working... phew...
<Charliefjohnson> agoliveira: Just sent you an email regarding apps and what has been choosen.  Can you reply today ?
<agoliveira> Charliefjohnson: Just did
<Charliefjohnson> agoliveira: Thanks!
<MTecknology> this isn't really specific to mobile, but maybe somebody in here can help? I'm going to a university that doesn't broadcast their SSID. When I go anywhere else that is, I have a flawless time with wireless. They have two sets of SSID's, student1 and student2. What happens is that the network manager never seems to connect to the university wireless so I need to make separate profile for each. Does anybody know any solutions for
<MTecknology>  this? I really want to be able to just use the roaming mode for all of my wireless.
<bfiller> Mithrandir: are you there?
<Mithrandir> bfiller: I am now
<bfiller> I wanted to ask you how to use dput if you only have a .deb and not a .changes
<bfiller> Mithrandir: should we just copy the .deb to our repository?
<Mithrandir> that's one way, sure.
<bfiller> Mithrandir: ok. wanted to make sure there wasn't a "preferred" way :)
<Mithrandir> bfiller: the preferred way is to build the .deb so you do have a .changes
<bfiller> Mithrandir: the package in question here is Skype. They only have a .deb on there site and no source to build from
<bfiller> Mithrandir: we want to include it in our repo and add it to our fset
<Mithrandir> ah, then just including it ought to work.
<mdamt> Where can I see the DEB_BUILD_OPTIONS env used in UME package builder?
<Mithrandir> mdamt: they're unset.
<mdamt> Ok thanks.
<mdamt> And maemo-launcher support is not enabled either?
<bspencer_> no agolivera today
<Mithrandir> mdamt: no.
<Mithrandir> anyway, I'm off to bed.
<HappyCamp> asac, you online?
<asac> HappyCamp: what about?
<HappyCamp> I just sent you an email regarding a bug we are seeing with regards to network-manager.
<HappyCamp> I attached a patch file that I think fixes the issue.
<asac> HappyCamp: the mail send to mobile list?
<HappyCamp> Basically network-manager is doing dbus restarts in the postinstall script, even though we have setup a policy-rc.d file that says that services should not run.
<HappyCamp> asac, yep.  I also CCed you directly
<HappyCamp> It's a fairly simple change to the postinst script.
<asac> "Patch to fix network-manager bug" ?? there is no CC 
<HappyCamp> I CCed you and the ubuntu-mobile mailing list
<HappyCamp> I'm guessing you received it?  It was to ubuntu-mobile and to you at your @ubuntu.com email.
<asac> yes i received the mail with subject above
<asac> with lsbfix.patch
<HappyCamp> That was from Todd.  I sent my own patch which I think might be better.
<HappyCamp> My patch is to network-manager  debian/network-manager.postinst
<asac> ok i have it
<HappyCamp> Good :)  I was worried our mail servers sucked.
<HappyCamp> I'd be interested to hear feedback on the patch.
<ToddBrandt> HappyCamp: I take it you removed the restart of the network server?
<ToddBrandt> oh, never mind, I see your patch
<HappyCamp> ToddBrandt, I made it honor if we have a /usr/sbin/policy-rc.d file which says, don't start services.
<HappyCamp> Which unfortunately network-manager currently will try to restart dbus services even if we don't want services to be changed.
<ToddBrandt> ok, yea that's another angle at the bug, it's both there and in lsb-base
<HappyCamp> asac the diff is to network-manager-(0.6.5-0ubuntu9
<ToddBrandt> Mithrandir said he was going to have one of their NM guys look at it but that will speed things up
<HappyCamp> So lsb-base has a bug where it does post-install service stuff?  Even if we don't want it to?
<HappyCamp> ToddBrandt, I think asac is one of the Network Manager guy, well at least based on the changelog I am looking at.
<asac> yes probably 
<ToddBrandt> HappyCamp: no it doesn't properly handle the case where tput returns a bad value
<asac> ... you don't want dbus to be restarted? how does that fix the bug Todd's patch tried to tackle?
<ToddBrandt> There's probably a thrid bug here too, somewhere in mobin-image-creator that causes the terminal characteristics to be muddled during an fset install
<HappyCamp> asac, No idea on Todd's bug.  Todd's patch is probably a perfectly good patch.  I am just trying to fix the issue where services are getting restarted even though in our case we don't want it to.
<asac> ok i thought because you replied to his patch mail it tries to replace that patch
<HappyCamp> I was guessing that if my patch worked then lsb-base would not be getting involved.  But to be honest I don't know if that is the case.
<asac> HappyCamp: what breaks for you because nm is restarting dbus?
<HappyCamp> asac, Not that.  I think it breaks because of the last two things, where it restarts some of the dbus specific components.  If  that makes sense.
<HappyCamp> This: /etc/dbus-1/event.d/25NetworkManager restart
<HappyCamp> and this: /etc/dbus-1/event.d/26NetworkManagerDispatcher restart
<ToddBrandt> HappyCamp: actually the bug is seen any time a service is stopped, started, or restarted from within package being installed/removed by moblin-image-creator
<asac> HappyCamp: well ... we have to restart networkmanager in postinst
<HappyCamp> I think mess us up.  The dbus service itself is called via invoke-rc.d which honors the policy-rc.d file.
<HappyCamp> asac not if I don't want it to restart in my chroot.
<asac> when don't you want that?
<HappyCamp> I would think, if I don't want it to restart in my chroot then it should not.
<asac> i mean postinst is invoked when you receive a software update
<HappyCamp> Moblin Image Creator is doing it inside a chroot environement.
<asac> so it needs to restart
<HappyCamp> Okay, maybe I am confused.  I want to stop it when we install the package.  Which I thought was when postinst gets called.
<asac> yes, but that doesn't matter much ... the nm service needs to be restarted
<HappyCamp> My patch should not affect anything except for the case when invoke-rc.d says don't install.
<asac> HappyCamp: do you don't want to start it if its not running before?
<HappyCamp> asac, Even in a chroot?
<HappyCamp> I don't want anything things to be running in my chroot, service wise.
<asac> HappyCamp: if you don't restart it in a chroot you cannot test it ... 
<HappyCamp> Well we have created /usr/sbin/policy-rc.d to return 101
<HappyCamp> Which means that services should not be run.
<asac> but we are already running dbus in that chroot, right?
<HappyCamp> We did this because a lot of applications do a postinstall script which dies when we are doing our install.
<HappyCamp> I don't think dbus should get started, unless we are doing it when we do a terminal.
<HappyCamp> But that would not be during the install.  Currently our installs our broken.
<HappyCamp> Now I don't know for sure if dbus is or is not getting started when we install it.
<asac> hmm
<asac> ok i am a bit unsure at the moment ... but its late so this doesn't really mean a thing :)
<asac> i will take a second look tomorrow and if good apply it
<HappyCamp> asac, We can wait until tomorrow.  No problem.
<HappyCamp> I just wanted network-manager to honor us using /usr/sbin/policy-rc.d   even if maybe we shouldn't be using it in such a blanket method.
<asac> how critical is that?
<asac> i mean i think it should be ok to have this in network-manager ... but i would like to batch this with the next upload i have to do anyways
<HappyCamp> Well we haven't been able to automatically build images since Thursday.  We have a workaround (manually install network-manager) but we would appreciate it getting fixed.
<asac> ok
<asac> why did it break since thursday?
<asac> what has changed?
<HappyCamp> Mithrandir, changed the ubuntu-mobile package, I think.
<HappyCamp> To bring in network-manager.
<asac> ok ... good
<asac> (or not so good :))
<HappyCamp> Before we weren't using network-manager.
<HappyCamp> Thanks for your help.  Have a good night.
<asac> HappyCamp: have you tested if it breaks anything in normal gutsy install?
<HappyCamp> asac, I tried it on my gutsy system:  sh ./network-manager.postinst configure
<asac> ok
<HappyCamp> And that worked.  But no, have not done a complete install :(
<asac> no thats fine then
<asac> HappyCamp: next time please submit a bug and maybe send a mailing list nag mail :)
<HappyCamp> asac, Okay.  Will do.  I'm guessing bugs are on launchpad.net ??
<asac> butits fine now :)
<asac> HappyCamp: yes
<asac> bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/%s ... %s=sourcepackagename
<HappyCamp> asac, thanks
#ubuntu-mobile 2007-09-06
<mdamt> Can I use PPA to build packages for UME?
<mdamt> Hmm I guess no, https://help.launchpad.net/PPAQuickStart says it's only for x86 and AMD64....
<dholbach> good morning
<Uraeus> Mithrandir: around?
<Mithrandir> Uraeus: I am
<amitk> Mithrandir: ping
<Mithrandir> hi amit
<amitk> Mithrandir: Hi. I have to run to the shop to fix an emergency leak in the bathroom. I'll try to make it back before the meeting, but I have sent the spec status in case I don't
<Mithrandir> ok, thanks.
<Mithrandir> good luck with fixing the leak. :-)
<amitk> Mithrandir: easier said than done. I have no idea how to fix it :-p 
<Mithrandir> worst case, call a plumber.
<bfiller> Mithrandir: question about hildon-desktop from upstream
<Mithrandir> shoot
<bfiller> Mithrandir: how often do we plan to merge into ubuntu branch? Looks like they've made a bunch of fixes that we proabably want
<Mithrandir> I don't have a schedule for it, I'm happy to take whatever fixes they think are suitable for us
<bfiller> Mithrandir: ok, I can also take a look at some of the changes and see if it's stuff we need
<bfiller> Mithrandir: one more thing re:hildon-desktop trunk that I see on Lauchpad. Is this imported daily into launchpad or is it linked directly to upstream's source control?
<Mithrandir> the vcs-import branch is imported regularly.  I'm not sure exactly how often, but I believe it's every 15 minutes or so
<bfiller> thanks
<smagoun> Mithrandir: I have patch for https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/137346 , which affects xserver-xorg-video-psb. Is that something you can apply? I was hoping bryce would get to it, I haven't seen him around recently though.
<Mithrandir> smagoun: there was a bit of discussion about it either on a list or private mail.
<Mithrandir> I can't remember what the conclusion was, though
<smagoun> Mithrandir: There was some discussion on IRC; as I recall the conclusion was that EXA 2.2 (a hw-accelerated X API) wouldn't be backported to gutsy, so the driver needed to be able to work with EXA 2.1.
<agoliveira> Meeting in 4?
<Mithrandir> oh, you have a patch, sorry, I didn't see that bit.  Please send it to bryce and I'll prod him to get it integrated.
<Mithrandir> agoliveira: yes
<Mithrandir> bspencer_: morning, do you have your guys awake and present?
<agoliveira> Thanks. I just had lunch so you won't hear me complaining this time :)
<bfiller> agoliveira: pre-meeting question for you - a few weeks back you were working on completing the libosso integration (rather than stripping it out). Is this complete?
<agoliveira> s/hear/see
<agoliveira> bfiller: Yes, libosso is running at least on a compatibility level. I didn't test it's services tough but dbus wise should work I believe.
<Mithrandir> asac,kwwii: you guys around?
<bfiller> agoliveira: ok, thanks. I will ping you later w/some further questions
<agoliveira> bfiller: no probme.
<agoliveira> problem
<asac> Mithrandir: yes
<Mithrandir> good, since we're about to start the meeting, once the Intel guys show up.
<bspencer_> Mithrandir: morning.  I am my guys
<Mithrandir> hi Charlie
<agoliveira> "I am my guys" ? Weird... :)
<ToddBrandt> Hello all
<ToddBrandt> bspencer is all of us
<Mithrandir> bspencer_: so you're all present and accounted for then?
<bspencer_> indeed
<Charliefjohnson> Morning folks (at least morning here in Oregon, USA)
<Mithrandir> ok, let's start then
<agoliveira> Cool. Let's try 1 hour today? :)
<Mithrandir> Charliefjohnson: can you give us an update on the hardware decode bits?
<Mithrandir> it's marked as not started in LP, I hope that's not correct?
<Mithrandir> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 15:55. The chair is Mithrandir.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC] , [IDEA] , [ACTION] , [AGREED] , [LINK] , [VOTE] 
<Mithrandir> [TOPIC]  mobile-hw-decode
<MootBot> New Topic:  mobile-hw-decode 
<Mithrandir> I almost forgot to use the bot. :-)
<Charliefjohnson> Mithrandir: Don't have the updated info.  I'll have to nag Waldo. Sorry.
<Mithrandir> could you do that and get him to send the status to the list?
<Charliefjohnson> Mithrandir:OK
<Mithrandir> [ACTION]  Charliefjohnson to talk with Waldo and get hw decode spec status posted to ubuntu-mobile@
<MootBot> ACTION received:  Charliefjohnson to talk with Waldo and get hw decode spec status posted to ubuntu-mobile@ 
<Mithrandir> thanks
<Mithrandir> [TOPIC]  mobile-browser
<MootBot> New Topic:  mobile-browser 
<cwong1> Asac has Uploaded a new midbrowser release to gusty. It had a problem but asac has just uploaded a fix. The browser should come up in the new target.
<bspencer_> really?  great news
<asac> ack
<bspencer_> what was the problem?
<Mithrandir> cwong1: yay, great.
<cwong1> We contacted addons owners to add support for midbrowser.  The responses are good so far. If we supply them the patch to install.rdf, they will incorperate it in their package.
<asac> bspencer_: packaging glitch
<Mithrandir> cwong1: should you be the assignee for the mobile-browser spec, rather than Bob?
<asac> bspencer_: uploaded from wrong local bzr branch :)
<bspencer_> Mithrandir: probably, yes
<cwong1> Mithrandir: yes
<bspencer_> asac: I see
<Charliefjohnson> So is the icon on the UI hooked up to launch it ?
<cwong1> It should
<bspencer_> Charliefjohnson: from what I've seen on crown beach applications start very slowly.  
<Mithrandir> cwong1: what's your LP username?
<bspencer_> Charliefjohnson: including calculator
<bfiller> cwong1: is there a .service file to prevent multiple instances from being launched?
<cwong1> LP?
<bspencer_> Charliefjohnson: and the browser is the slowest right now.  just fyi.
<Charliefjohnson> bspencer_, : you have the libata patch?
<HappyCamp> launchpad.net cwong1 
<agoliveira> cwong1: Launchpad
<cwong1> cwong1
<bspencer_> Charliefjohnson: I only heard from QA.  I'll check with you about that after . I don't know if they had the libata patch
<cwong1> bfiller: I done have a .service file yet
* HappyCamp thinks cwong1 is very imaginative :)
<bfiller> cwong1: but you are planning to, correct?
<Charliefjohnson> bspencer_, :If they have the lastest kernel, they should have it.  You'll know it on the install if you don't.
<cwong1> bfiller: y
<cwong1> One last thing, we are currently working on a browser plugin to invoke our media player for video, pictures, music, ..etc.
<cwong1> as the default ...
<Mithrandir> ok
<bspencer_> just a note here:  the current plan is to play all media content in the external player, except for flash video.
<Mithrandir> is that properly documented in the spec?  (I can't remember)
<bspencer_> if you click a radio link, for example, it opens the media player and starts to play.  Then you have to toggle back to the browser.
<bspencer_> Mithrandir: not sure.  cwong1 is the owner ;)
<cwong1> I will double check and if not I will update the doc
<Mithrandir> ok, good
<Mithrandir> moving on then.
<Mithrandir> amitk: are you back again?
<Mithrandir> seems not, we'll hopefully catch him later.
<Mithrandir> [TOPIC]  mobile-graphics
<MootBot> New Topic:  mobile-graphics 
* agoliveira hopes Amit didn't drown on the toilet :-D
<agoliveira> literally...
<Mithrandir> Charliefjohnson: could you please give us an update here?  I saw some discussion about EXA 2.2?
<Charliefjohnson> OK. We have a current issue with the "psb" driver where it is claiming EXA 2.2 support where xserver 1.3 only has EXA 2.1
<Charliefjohnson> So you get no 2D acceleration.
<Mithrandir> smagoun here said he had a patch to fix that?
<Mithrandir> (just before the meeting)
<Charliefjohnson> Who is smagoun?
<smagoun> yes: https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/137346
<Charliefjohnson> So is this now resolved?
<smagoun> CharliefJohnson: I work with bfiller, patm, lenkawell, etc
<Mithrandir> it's not uploaded, but apparently we have a fix for it available.
<smagoun> The patch needs to be applied to UME and possibly moblin
<Charliefjohnson> I'll look at the bug report.
<Mithrandir> smagoun: if you could attach the patch (if you haven't already) that'd be good.
<Mithrandir> I'll notify bryce about it too
<Charliefjohnson> Anyway - the redesign to ensure that the psb drm module can be open is complete and they are implementing.
<smagoun> Mithrandir:  did that already
<Mithrandir> [ACTION]  tfheen to talk with Bryce about EXA 2.1 patch for psb X driver
<MootBot> ACTION received:  tfheen to talk with Bryce about EXA 2.1 patch for psb X driver 
<Charliefjohnson> I thinik the first 3D capable drop will show up in Nov.
<Mithrandir> ok
<Charliefjohnson> There may be some intermediate drops worth taking, I have to verify that with the team however.
<Mithrandir> it would be useful so we could test it when we start getting the clutter UI drops happening.
<Mithrandir> moving on, we've had reports from Bob about the UI so next up is the USB client stuff
<Charliefjohnson> "clutter" is the replacement for flash?
<bspencer_> Charliefjohnson: yes, based on OpenGL
<Mithrandir> clutter is libclutter, OpenGL library developed by openedhand
<Mithrandir> [TOPIC]  usb client
<MootBot> New Topic:  usb client 
<Charliefjohnson> I got a status from them yesterday.  I'll post it to the mailing list.
<Mithrandir> ok, thanks.
<Mithrandir> any interesting highlights?
<Charliefjohnson> I didn't really read it yet. Sorry.  I was in a meeting all day yesterday.
<HappyCamp> Charliefjohnson, http://projects.o-hand.com/  for Clutter info and more.
<Mithrandir> ok, no problem
<Mithrandir> [TOPIC]  mobile utilities
<MootBot> New Topic:  mobile utilities 
<Mithrandir> ToddBrandt: do you have a status update for us?
<ToddBrandt> yea
<ToddBrandt> As for the status of specific applets: All existing applets are fully functional except Date & Time, but it should be fully debugged by next week. The volume and screen brightness applets are delayed because they don't yet conform to the hildon status bar applet format (waiting for the owner to send an update)
<ToddBrandt> Then there's a general issue of gconf settings: most control panel applet functions don't take because the apps on the system aren't listening to the cp applets' gconf keys. I'm creating a spreadsheet with all the them so we can add/change things til we get it right, then I'll maintain it on moblin.org for reference.
<ToddBrandt> The second is more interesting, I assume that gconf is the standard of choice, yes?
<agoliveira> ToddBrandt: You had that on your clipboard all the time didn't you? :)
<Charliefjohnson> ToddBrandt: Great Update!
<ToddBrandt> heh, I like to get it right ;)
<Mithrandir> why don't they take?
<HappyCamp> agoliveira, ToddBrandt is our very own "Mavis Bacon" ;)
<bfiller> ToddBrandt: when will the applets show up in the control panel so we can play with them?
<ToddBrandt> well the apps have to be listening to the right keys, so some do and some don;t
<bspencer_> ToddBrandt I think gconf is the default.  I don't know if there is a dbus interface for it.  I recall corba being there and Nokia had some dbus addition, but it wasn't upstream
<ToddBrandt> bfiller: they're there now, you're not seeing them !?
<ToddBrandt> they're in ubuntu-staging 
<bfiller> ToddBrandt: no
* amitk is back
<amitk> agoliveira: I survived ;)
<agoliveira> amitk: Cool ;)
<bfiller> ToddBrandt: I ran image creator yesterday and didn't see them
<Mithrandir> bfiller: they're in a separate fset
<bfiller> Mithrandir: ah, which one?
<ToddBrandt> bfiller: yea you have to install the ubuntu-stagin fset
<Mithrandir> ubuntu-staging
<bspencer_> you have to add it manually, (not part of samsung-full...)
<bfiller> ToddBrandt: thanks, sorry for the confusion
<bspencer_> bfiller: until they get integrated into ubuntu-mobile.
<ToddBrandt> no problem :)
<Mithrandir> gconf in Ubuntu doesn't have a dbus interface, but it does have a CORBA interface.  We should probably kill orbit and just use dbus
<bspencer_> Mithrandir: I think that is the right thing to do
<bspencer_> Nokia did this I believe
<agoliveira> +1
<bspencer_> owner = ToddBrandt  ? 
<Mithrandir> if he's willing or can be voluntold, sure.
<ToddBrandt> bspoencer: yea, I'll take it
<bspencer_> agoliveira doesn't have anything to do I hear ;)
<Mithrandir> [ACTION]  ToddBrandt to investigate use of DBUS for gconf
<MootBot> ACTION received:  ToddBrandt to investigate use of DBUS for gconf 
<bspencer_> ToddBrandt cool. 
<Mithrandir> ToddBrandt: are you working with HappyCamp on getting the code uploaded?
<ToddBrandt> Mithrandir: did you get that lsb-base patch uploade ?
* agoliveira remembers to never trust bspencer_
<ToddBrandt> Mithrandir: which code uploaded?
<Mithrandir> ToddBrandt: asac fixed it in NM itself.
<Mithrandir> ToddBrandt: the control panel applet code.
<ToddBrandt> Mithrandir: asac only fixed half the bug, it will still fail when the package is removed, we need the fix to lsb-base
* bspencer_ sighs that the bug that broke images is now fixed
<Mithrandir> he's your point main for getting stuff into Ubuntu now, and knows how the sponsorship process works.
<Mithrandir> [ACTION]  tfheen to investigate lsb-base bug which breaks when network-manager is removed
<MootBot> ACTION received:  tfheen to investigate lsb-base bug which breaks when network-manager is removed 
<ToddBrandt> Mithrandir: ok, I'll bug him about that
<bspencer_> Mithrandir: for network manager, or for everything ?
<Mithrandir> bspencer_: in general, but if there's something special, I can upload too
<HappyCamp> bspencer_, I think for everything at the moment.  It is so I can become a member of MOTU
<asac> Mithrandir: i am not sure if I should sponsor fixes to lsb-base
<asac> Mithrandir: nm is fine though :)
<HappyCamp> Of couse I just give it to Mithrandir or someone else.
<Mithrandir> asac: I'll do it.
<asac> good.
<Mithrandir> HappyCamp: in the short term, you do.  In the long term, you'll upload yourself.
<HappyCamp> right.
* bspencer_ fears seeing HappyCamp get any power
<Mithrandir> let's move on?
<ToddBrandt> k
<Mithrandir> [TOPIC]  mobile-image-creation
<MootBot> New Topic:  mobile-image-creation 
<Mithrandir> HappyCamp: can you give us a status update?
<Mithrandir> also, what's your launchpad user ID?  You should be the assignee, not pkl.
<HappyCamp> I have done more bug fixing mainly.
<HappyCamp> I think my lp id is: john-l-villalovos
<HappyCamp> I haven't had a whole lot of time to work on image-creator this week.  We had some other issues come up this week and it has taken up most of my time :(
<bspencer_> images have been broken since last thursday due to nm bug
<bspencer_> fsets failed.  But that should work today, I'm guessing
<HappyCamp> I did put in the config file changes and they seem to be working.
<bspencer_> I've used the ~/.image-creator/image-creator.cfg   -- it works for me
<HappyCamp> Expansion of the config file work and much much better error handling is next.
<smagoun> HappyCamp: is someone working on the save/restore feature we discussed during the sprint?
<HappyCamp> Not yet.  I think there is a bug in bugzilla on it.
<HappyCamp> But I did get assigned my very own "minion".  So hopefully I can get him up to speed and we can get some of this stuff cranked out soon.
<HappyCamp> smagoun, https://www.moblin.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=97
<HappyCamp> I don't really have much more to add on image-creator.  Anyone have questions?
<Mithrandir> sounds like things are moving along at a good pace
<bspencer_> error handling will be nice
<Mithrandir> indeed, all of the wanted features would be nice
<bspencer_> esp mine :)
<Mithrandir> [TOPIC]  mobile-power-thermal-optimizations
<MootBot> New Topic:  mobile-power-thermal-optimizations 
<Mithrandir> Charliefjohnson: that one's yours.
<Charliefjohnson> Is there anything more to discuss here, the patches were integrated into the kernel.  The blueprint was updated a couple of weeks ago so that the only thing adress was the thermal extension.
<Mithrandir> it says "beta available", which usually means there is still work going into it.
<Charliefjohnson> I'll take the action to find out if there is going to be any additional updates.  
<amitk> Charliefjohnson: What is the schedule to send the patches upstream?
<Mithrandir> [ACTION]  Charliefjohnson to investigate updates to mobile-power-thermal-optimizations
<MootBot> ACTION received:  Charliefjohnson to investigate updates to mobile-power-thermal-optimizations 
<Charliefjohnson> I'll have to check with the guys in India.  I don't have that info close at hand.
<Mithrandir> if you could do so and report back, that'd be much appreciated.
<Charliefjohnson> OK
<Mithrandir> I'd like us to review action items from the last meeting, and get an update on how we ended up deciding to get updates into Ubuntu is actually working.
<Mithrandir> anybody got any more agenda items?
<Charliefjohnson> Was a UI update sent to the mailing list?
<bspencer_> Charliefjohnson: yes
<amitk> are there any more kernel patches pending integration?
<bspencer_> Charliefjohnson: before 1400 as requested (IIRC)
<Mithrandir> [TOPIC]  Action items from last meeting
<MootBot> New Topic:  Action items from last meeting 
<amitk> Charliefjohnson: Any updates on schedule for 2D DRM drivers?
<Mithrandir> bfiller,rusty and bspencer_ were to work out details on how to get event mechanism in mobile-basic-flash work well, in a meaningful way
<Charliefjohnson> Can we get the Xterm icon hooked up to xterm ??  It is a pain in the but with no xterm available except by booting to single user mode.
<bspencer_> Mithrandir: we had a discussion with bfiller, but the task isn't completed
<Mithrandir> bspencer_: ok, so you want it again for the next week too?
<Charliefjohnson> The graphics drivers and DRM are all part of the same package.  
<agoliveira> Charliefjohnson: Ctrl+Alt+F1? :)
<bspencer_> Mithrandir: yes.  we will report next week
<Mithrandir> [ACTION]  bfiller, rustyl, bspencer to work out details on how to get event mechanism in mobile-basic-flash work well, in a meaningful way
<MootBot> ACTION received:  bfiller, rustyl, bspencer to work out details on how to get event mechanism in mobile-basic-flash work well, in a meaningful way 
<Charliefjohnson> agoliveira: has worked for me.  Just hangs my crown beach.
<Mithrandir> I have reviewed a few specs and sent them back, so that's an ongoing process, but since it's not complete, I earn an ACTION
<Mithrandir> [ACTION]  tfheen to review and approve specs (2)
<MootBot> ACTION received:  tfheen to review and approve specs (2) 
<agoliveira> Charliefjohnson: Oh... I only have the Q1 and works on it.
<Charliefjohnson> agoliveira: probably a driver bug.  
<Mithrandir> agoliveira: the psb driver is buggy and switching away from X doesn't work.
<Mithrandir> Charliefjohnson: though, I agree getting the icon hooked up would be good.
<Charliefjohnson> There is an updated 2D driver they we need to test.  It might be worth taking.
<Mithrandir> sure, can you coordinate that with Bryce?
<patm> Charliefjohnnson, what is new in the updated 2D driver?
<Charliefjohnson> Issue: We might have a problem with folks applying patches to the "psb" driver directly in MOBLIN.  
<Mithrandir> ok, moving on the next topic then?
<Charliefjohnson> The team doing the driver doesn't not participate in MOBLIN.  So patches that go there will cause extra merging since MOBLIN is not the source of the driver.
<Mithrandir> HappyCamp: can that be solved by just letting the authorised set of people push to the driver repository?
<HappyCamp> Mithrandir, it could, I guess.  If they would want to.  I'm not sure who "they" are.
<Charliefjohnson> Mithrandir:  It is a bit more complicated than that and become political. :^(
<bspencer_> political:  Does this have something to do with the Senator from Idaho?
<Charliefjohnson> Internal Intel politics.
<Mithrandir> well, we need to make sure that nobody commits to the moblin tree without it coming from the relevant group inside intel, right?
<agoliveira> bspencer_: The one that "loves" cops? :-D
<bspencer_> :)
<Mithrandir> this either means not having the tree there or restricting access somehow.
<Mithrandir> Charliefjohnson: is it contentious for the people writing the driver to be pushing their updates onto the git tree on moblin.org?
<Charliefjohnson> Yes - Any patches for Graphics (2D or DRM) should be sent to me.  I'll work with the team to incorporating the change. 
<Mithrandir> so the tree on moblin.org is pointless, then?
<Mithrandir> or are you working with an internal git tree which this one is just a branch of?
<Charliefjohnson> Mithrandir:  For certain components - yes
<Mithrandir> which of those questions was that a yes to?
<Charliefjohnson> Mithrandir:  This is probably an offline discussion.  
<Mithrandir> ok, we can cover it on the phone later then?
<Mithrandir> then I'd like us to move on to the topic of updates from moblin into Ubuntu
<Mithrandir> [TOPIC]  flow of updates from moblin into Ubuntu
<MootBot> New Topic:  flow of updates from moblin into Ubuntu 
<Mithrandir> we've covered this a couple of times before, and now we've changed the procedure so HappyCamp should become a MOTU relativetly quickly, and I am less of a bottleneck.
<Mithrandir> HappyCamp: have you had much experience with the process yet, or has that been hampered by the "other stuff" you mentioned above?
<HappyCamp> I've been hampered with the "other stuff" this week.  Hopefully I will be finished with everything today.  And then can get back on the moblin stuff fulltime.
<Mithrandir> ok, good.  I'll raise the topic again next week and we can evaluate how the new process is working?
<HappyCamp> sounds good.
<Mithrandir> anybody got any other business?
<agoliveira> I just want to warn that tomorrow is a holiday here so I won't be available.
<Charliefjohnson> App List - Long discussion yesterday.
<Mithrandir> ah, yes
<Mithrandir> [TOPIC]  user applications
<MootBot> New Topic:  user applications 
<agoliveira> Fine. Charliefjohnson, do you have any specific questions?
<bspencer_> just FYI, Peter is Mauri's replacement.  I think some of the discussion is him getting familiar with the application work going on
<bspencer_> and the email yesterday was to clarify where best to put additional help and not duplicate adilson's work
<agoliveira> bspencer_: Yes, I've traded a few emails about this yesterday.
<Charliefjohnson> Peter is the engineering mgr.  Mauri will continue to be the program mgr I thought.
<bspencer_> agoliveira: right.  just fyi for those listening
<bspencer_> Charliefjohnson: yes, true.
<agoliveira> bspencer_: Sure
<bspencer_> agoliveira: I'd like to chat with you after this mtg more 
<bspencer_> or after lunch if you prefer
<Charliefjohnson> The root of the app list email is that Intel mangement wanted a date for when all the apps have been identified.
<Mithrandir> just to be clear, engineering manager is roughly what we call technical lead?
<agoliveira> bspencer_: Sure. I already lunch so we can do just afetr the meeting.
<Charliefjohnson> I think with the latest list.  The only apps not identified are the Games.
<bspencer_> Mithrandir: no, he won't be writing code
<bspencer_> Mithrandir: more of a director
<Mithrandir> ok
<agoliveira> Charliefjohnson: Exaclty. I expect to do it next week.
<bspencer_> everyone should write one
<agoliveira> You can also keep an eye or subscribe to the wiki page. I try to keep it updated,
<bspencer_> and we should have a prize for the best game
<bspencer_> agoliveira: yes, thanks for keeping that up to date.  I use that page here a lot to remind me what is up.
<Mithrandir> Charliefjohnson: you suggested a date about two weeks into the future as a deadline for selection of all applications.  That sounds fine to me, at least.
<agoliveira> bspencer_: I have several published... for casinos, but it's a game anyway ;)
<Charliefjohnson> I have to attend a staff meeting.  So have to bail.  
<bspencer_> Mithrandir: I have one more topic:  deadlines for October release and what it means to Ubuntu-mobile
<bspencer_> Mithrandir: / everyone:  sorry if we go over :-\
<Mithrandir> see you, Charlie.
<Mithrandir> ok, so no conclusion on user applications as Charlie had to leave.
<agoliveira> BTW, would be great if Peter could attend the meeting too.
<Mithrandir> [TOPIC]  deadlines for October release and implications for UME
<MootBot> New Topic:  deadlines for October release and implications for UME 
<bspencer_> agoliveira: I'll mention that, but I thikn it is rusty and I who will be here usually
<bspencer_> agoliveira: and Mauri will attend too (she is on vacation)
<agoliveira> bspencer_: At least ;)
<bspencer_> Mithrandir: I know there are upcoming deadlines 
<bspencer_> and I wanted to clarify what kind of expectations or limitations there would be
<bspencer_> one example:  Clutter UI probably gets done end of Sept.  Is it still possible to make it the default UI for Oct ?
<Mithrandir> We've been discussing this a fair bit back and forth, both internally and at least with some others.
<Mithrandir> and I'd like to make 7.10 also be an developer-targetted alpha
<agoliveira> Mithrandir: This is very reasonable
<bspencer_> Mithrandir: ok.  Well maybe you could set some dates when changes will be frozen
<Mithrandir> I need to sit and look at the calendar for exactly when freezes should be happening.  7.10 happens on october 18th
<bspencer_> ok.  Maybe you could share that next week?
<Mithrandir> my main problem with making the clutter UI the default is it's going to be useless on menlow hardware until we have 3D support.
<Mithrandir> I'll see what I can do, absolutely.
<bspencer_> Mithrandir: true.  I have a fallback fro that
<bspencer_> s/fro/for
<Mithrandir> input is much appreciated too, if anybody has any (strong or otherwise) opinions.
<bspencer_> I think a minimum of 2wks should be used for bug fixing only
<bspencer_> and we should clairfy the apps and features we expect now
<bspencer_> (not now as in this meeting)
<bfiller> bspencer_: I'd like to see navigation work alot better too
<bspencer_> bfiller: navigation in the home screen or navigation between apps?
<bfiller> bspencer_: as in being able to get back to home plugin
<Mithrandir> we're kinda running out of time for that to happen, but I'll raise it on the mailing list and based on that, we can decide in the meeting next week?
<bfiller> bspencer_: and not relaunching apps if they are running
<bspencer_> bfiller: definately.  We will be trying a new idea this week:  jump to home screen instead of drop-deown menu. (like iPhone a little)
<bspencer_> and yes, no duplicate apps running
<bspencer_> Mithrandir: ok.
<Mithrandir> [ACTION]  tfheen to raise scheduling/freezes on mailing list, decision to be taken in next week's meeting
<MootBot> ACTION received:  tfheen to raise scheduling/freezes on mailing list, decision to be taken in next week's meeting 
<Mithrandir> ok, then I think we're out of agenda items.
<HappyCamp>  offtopic: Mithrandir, Has Ubuntu emailed invitiations for UDS yet?
<agoliveir1> Sorry... it did drop
<bfiller> bspencer_: sounds good. I've played with this a little and used keyboard shortcut to get back home as well
<ian_brasil> HappyCamp: yes
<bspencer_> bfiller: Alt+D ?
<bspencer_> :)
<Mithrandir> HappyCamp: argh, no, that's fallen off my list.  It's not meeting thing, so I'll note it on my offline todo list.
<HappyCamp> ian_brasil, okay.  Hopefully they went to my manager :)
<bfiller> bspencer_: right!
<Mithrandir> ian_brasil: no, not really.  Some, but not all.
<ian_brasil> ah, ok..sorry
<Mithrandir> Before adjourning I'd like to ask everybody to please, please, please remember to post status updates to the list next week as they help keep the meeting somewhat short.  Also, if you would be so kind as to be here on time and not wander in three minutes past, that should make us waste less time.
<Mithrandir> thanks everybody, adjourned
<Mithrandir> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 17:05.
<bspencer_> agoliveira: 2 mins for chat?
<agoliveir1> bspencer_: Sure.
<bspencer_> ok.  4 apps listed.  We want to put a couple "spare" guys on a few for a few weeks
<kwwii> oops, sorry guys I was at the store and missed the meeting
<bspencer_> we'll call it a "surge"
<bspencer_> then when peace reigns we'll pull them out
<agoliveir1> bspencer_: Fine
<bspencer_> kwwii: you lose man
<bspencer_> agoliveira: Peter had 4 apps listed, one was GPS/Navigation .l
* agoliveir1 booes kwwii :)
<kwwii> bspencer_: no doubt - i'll new get to test my new theme :-(
<bspencer_> s/.1//
<bspencer_> kwwii: you could send a status to the mailing list.  That would be interesting for me.  I'll try your theme!
<kwwii> bspencer_: did you get my mail about the missing pieces needed to test the theme ?
<agoliveir1> bspencer_: That wasn't on the initial specs.
<kyleN> kwwii, could you include me in th emailings please? thx
<kwwii> bspencer_: it will not install...it seems that our hildon-theme-tools package is missing a couple of parts
<kwwii> kyleN: sure, you are on the list right?
<bspencer_> agoliveir1: right
<bspencer_> agoliveir1:  so no worries.  We'll maybe see if we can find somehting
<kyleN> oh, you sent to ubuntu-mobile - I must have missed it
<bspencer_> agoliveir1:  Office:  abiword.  Can we help there?
<bspencer_> kwwii: just a sec.  I just want to wrap up woth agoliveir1 first
<kwwii> kyleN: no, I sent the last email just to bspencer_ because I thought he would know about whether these pieces are missing
<kwwii> bspencer_: no problem
<agoliveir1> bspencer_: Abiword is just packing, don't worry. Evince would be a good one.
<kyleN> cool
<agoliveir1> bspencer_: Not too hard too as the interface is simple.
<agoliveir1> Another great help would be in simplifying the OpenOffice interface.
<bspencer_> agoliveir1: mm... I'm not excited about OO
<bspencer_> it is so big
<bspencer_> it is like Mozilla x 4
<bspencer_> not a mobile app
<agoliveir1> bspencer_: Me neither but it's the only option we have now to support all MS docs and this is on the SoW.
<bspencer_> agoliveir1:  really?  I'm checking the SOW
<agoliveir1> And the rest of the chain food there is asking for it :)
<bspencer_> Maybe we should push back alittle.  Mainly we need a ppt app, right?
<bspencer_> food chain, not chain food
<agoliveir1> Yes.
<agoliveir1> From sharks to mcdonalds :)
<bspencer_> :)
<bspencer_> hold on that then, there were two more apps.
<bspencer_> oh, PDF viewer?
<bspencer_> and RSS reader
<agoliveir1> Yes, evince can handle it.
<bspencer_> maybe we could work on Lafeara
<bspencer_> is evince PDF?
<agoliveir1> Already on my list
<bspencer_> which?
<agoliveir1> Evince can handle PDF and a lot others.
<agoliveir1> bspencer_: On my list - RSS reader I mean.
<bspencer_> I know you have a list, but I want to know which apps you are 100% sure you can Hildonize by end of month.
<bspencer_> or 80% :)
<agoliveir1> bspencer_: It's hard to say but I believe that, not counting things like OO, all of them or almost that.
<bspencer_> Are you planning to port Lifeaara (sp)
<agoliveir1> bspencer_: Yes.
<bspencer_> ok.  We won't do any work there
<bspencer_> and evince?
<agoliveir1> That too.
<bspencer_> k
<bspencer_> and rdesktop -- what was the conclusion?
<agoliveir1> It will go in the pot too. I was looking at it today BTW.
<bspencer_> after using it I like it
<bspencer_> because it feels so Windows-y  for those Windows people out there
<bspencer_> and it scaled to 1024x600 very gracefully with no work
<agoliveir1> bspencer_: I've being hacking on it for almost 3 years so I know a bit or 2 about it ;)
<bspencer_> sweet
<agoliveir1> bspencer_: The only limitation is the RDP protocol itself.
<bspencer_> what about porting the maemo GTK-based VNC application to moblin?   Maybe we can do that
<agoliveir1> and what we can reverse-engineer from it... which brings me the case of legal that you're afraid...
<bspencer_> (in addition, on the side)
<agoliveir1> I woudn't care about vnc now as it requires a server to work on windows and it's much more limited.
<bspencer_> ah, RDP for rdesktop is reverse engineered and not fully in the clear.
<agoliveir1> bspencer_: Right.
<agoliveir1> The RDP spec published does not work on MS implementation.
<bspencer_> agoliveira: ok
<bspencer_> agoliveira: have you triued it with vista?
<bspencer_> (I only tried with XP)
<bspencer_> I assume nothing changed.  just wondered.
<agoliveira> bspencer_: No, I don't have a vista capable of work as server but should work while they don't push RDP to version 6.
<bspencer_> ok.
<bspencer_> so are there any othre important apps (besides OO or ppt equivalent) that you would like short-term help with?
<agoliveira> Even so you can aways work on RDP 5 and miss a few things like seamless windows.
<agoliveira> bspencer_: Well, all help you could lend would be great but for now I guess that's it.
<bspencer_> agoliveira: gnumeric -- you can get that ported by end of Sept too ?  :)
<agoliveira> bspencer_: Same as abiword. No problem.
<bspencer_> agoliveira: you da man
<agoliveira> bspencer_: Tell that to my boos when my next review comes :)
<agoliveira> s/boos/boss
<bspencer_> I tell your boos anytime
<bspencer_> you bring the boos, I'll tell it you're great
* agoliveira have to type slower :>)
<bspencer_> agoliveira: ok.  thanks.
<agoliveira> bspencer_: My pleasure.
<agoliveira> Let me know when you can provide any help so I can sync the efforts and avoid duplication.
<bspencer_> agoliveira: well, aside from OO and GPS I didn't see you needing any help
<bspencer_> so I won't be providing any
<agoliveira> bspencer_: It's a matter of time. If you want faster...
<bspencer_> right, I understand
<agoliveira> Cool.
<kyleN> hey agoliveria, question?
<kyleN> typo in name notwithstanding ;)
<agoliveira> kyleN: Sure, if I can help...
<kyleN> it is about help, as a matter of fact
<kyleN> I am wondering in general what thought has been given to help in ume, with respect to apps and the system
<kyleN> is the ubuntu model going to be used?  (yelp and etc.)
<kyleN> are all apps following that model? 
<agoliveira> Well, to tell you the truth, I didn't think about it.
<kwwii> bspencer_: quick chat about the themeing?
<kyleN> I think Yelp looks good.
<agoliveira> and I guess we won't have time to mess with that right now so it goes down the line :)
<kyleN> but, what about apps? is there a standard that they need to know about to fit into the system?
<kyleN> down the line is farther away for some folks than others ;)
<agoliveira> kyleN: In general, if the applciation uses hildon the right way, they fit the interface but there's a few things like dbus messaging that will probably need more hacking later.
<kyleN> does hildon support a help framework?
<agoliveira> kyleN: Beats me, sorry. Never looked at it.
<kwwii> kyleN: it is based on xml with an xslt stylesheet and a utility to install it in the system
<kyleN> yes, I know how Yelp works
<kyleN> thx
<kyleN> I think UME should decide to use it and state it as THE requirement for help
<kwwii> kyleN: yes, I agree
<agoliveira> kyleN: I suggest you send this to the ML so we can open a discussion about it.
<kyleN> and, at the risk of sounding shrill, I think the sooner this decision (or some decision) is taken, thebetter
<kyleN> OK, I'll do that
<kwwii> bspencer_: so as far as the themeing goes, I figured out how to create a theme about 8 hours before the documentation came out.
<kwwii> kyleN: for themeing we will probably need to add a bit of specific info on top of the stuff already online
<kyleN> kwii, cool. does it handle the points in the spec?
<kwwii> bspencer_: but after building a theme it fails to install because we are missing "hildon-theme-cacher" which is apparently in the hildon-theme-tools package (but not our version)
<kwwii> kyleN: yes, it handles them in a pretty basic way
<ian_brasil> kyleN: i agree
<kwwii> kyleN: it does not say what each pic does exactly so we might want to add a bit more 
<kyleN> i noticed the outliner tool helps designer know where to put images
<kwwii> kyleN: yes, that helps quite a lot in creating a theme actually
<kyleN> kwwii, yes, I think the theme sdk is a great idea
<kwwii> but the colors stuff, for instance, is quite spooky
<kyleN> that will help them try out themes and find out what happens
<kwwii> there are a lot of names and I still have little idea exactly what each one does
<kyleN> kwii, that's the difficult part.
<kyleN> I did make a list of the main image files used today
<kwwii> I would like to add a sentence about each color-name and perhaps a screenshot of where exactly that color is used
<kwwii> kyleN: cool
<kyleN> it includes everythign on the marquee and on marquee menus and submenus, but not icons
<kwwii> the most important thing at this point would be to enable theme switching in our current stuff
<kyleN> kwwii: yes, theme switching is important
<kwwii> kyleN: yeah, the icons are going to be a lot of work as well...it is more down to experience than anything else at this point
<kyleN> I think a document specifying what themeing is and isn't would be really helpful
<kwwii> kyleN: yeah, I pretty much stopped working on it because it is unrealistic to continually manually copy over all the pics and files in a running system
<kyleN> kwwii, do they have to be copied, or could te system just look in the new directory?
<kwwii> if we had everything working right it would/should be able to simply create new directories in the right places and allow one to switch back and forth
<kwwii> as things are now we cannot even install a new theme without doing it by hand
<kyleN> yes, that's definitely the goal
<kyleN> well, it's great that work is going on in this area. I know it's a tedious area
<kwwii> I guess bspencer_ would know more about what we need to do to get that working though
<kyleN> I think we need a high level plan with milestones and etc 
<kwwii> at this point, the plan would be to get the theme-switching working and then to document all the pieces...after that we can document the process for including a theme in a default setup
<kyleN> getting it working for theme designer pre-build is probably the highest priority
<kyleN> we said opposite things ;)
<Mithrandir> kyleN: for help, would you be willing to spearhead that?
<kyleN> sure M.
<kwwii> the thing is that without the theme-switching capability it is almost impossible to really test a theme otherwise you would have to rebuild the whole system after replacing all the pics and config files in the source
<kwwii> and I really need to be able to test things to figure out how it all fits together
<Mithrandir> kyleN: great.  Could you add a blueprint to launchpad and make ubuntu-mobile the approver and then start by writing a spec for it?
<Mithrandir> (there's a SpecTemplate on the wiki, so base your spec off that)
<kyleN> kwwii, is that true? couldn't you just put the new files in a target and relaunch in xephyr?
<kwwii> kyleN: yes but that is a big waste of time
<kyleN> ok, but it tests/exercises slicer, outliner, in other words, the tools the third party theme designer would need to use
<kyleN> Mithrandir, yes
<kwwii> for the colors for instance, you have to change one color at a time and then test it...perhaps switching back to the old version to see how it worked
<kwwii> kyleN: yepp, the tools to create the theme work great and pretty straight forward
<kwwii> that part is done, really (thanks nokia!)
<kyleN> ok. do we have a clear "App API" for icon themeing yet?
<kwwii> kyleN: not sure I get what you mean by app api
<kwwii> I do not think that there are any documents which explain what each icon does specifically and where it will appear
<kyleN> a clear description of how a UME application usees themeable icons - where they go and don't go, etc
<kyleN> not what each icon does, but how to write an app that whose icons are themeable 
<kwwii> the xdg stuff lists some icons and explains them in decent context but that is only a few of the many icons in the system
<kwwii> kyleN: ahh, now I see...not sure if that exists or not..I would guess that it simply comes from the gtk code and not something app-specific
<kyleN> I  might not understand, but I am not talking about what each icon does
<kwwii> each app might add special icons, of course
<kyleN> yes: as in a wiki page that specifies UME requirements for applications with respect to themeable icons
<kwwii> you will probably also find that many apps simply use icons that some developer picked at random 
<kyleN> yes, and those special icons, to be themable, should go somewhere and not somewhere else, right? 
<kyleN> let's say we get user-settable themes really working
<kwwii> yes, the places for icons are very well defined
<kyleN> ok.
<kyleN> usr/share/icons/(theme)... I suppose
<kyleN> anyway, I'll shut up now ;)
<kyleN> (gotta go eat - cheers)
<kwwii> yes, exactly
<kwwii> cheers
* kwwii is off to cook for a birthday party tomorrow...I'll be online but it might take a while for me to respond
<bspencer_> kwwii: ok.  sorry I stepped away
<bspencer_> kwwii: does someone own getting hildon-theme-cacher updated?
* bspencer_ steps away again for breakfast
<alek_in_AG1> bspencer_, how about no lunch too ?
<kwwii> bspencer_: I think that it is part of hildon-theme-tools package
<bspencer_> kwwii: yeah.  do you know what is broken?
<bspencer_> we have that package 
<kwwii> bspencer_: in our package there does not appear to be the hildon-theme-cacher part - as far as I can tell it is simply missing
<bspencer_> yeah, I don't see it
<agoliveira> Gentleman, tomorrow is our Independence Day here in Brazil which I'll celebrate sleeping until it hurts (I won this right parading on the streets during the military dictatorship times) so, Im' leaving right on cue and I bid you farewell!
<kwwii> agoliveira: have a lot of fun :-)
<agoliveira> kwwii: I will dream about it :) Bye!
<lucasr> yo
<bspencer_> lucasr: ping -- I had a question about configuration files in hildon-desktop
<benj3one> Is anyone here experimenting with ARM port yet?
<benj3one> I am settling for windows mobile5 on my motoQ at the moment, and it's making me cry :-(
#ubuntu-mobile 2007-09-07
<HappyCamp> bspencer_, you there?
<dholbach> good morning
<dholbach> Mithrandir: you have and want gstreamer on ume, right?
<dholbach> so it's a good thing, if I install a gst codec in the new bluez-utils
<Mithrandir> yes to both.
<dholbach> (which will make the package depends on libgstreamer-plugins-base0.10-0)
<dholbach> ok good
<dholbach> just checking
<Mithrandir> that's fine
<dholbach> Mithrandir: bluez-utils ftbfs on lpia - I have no idea why (it seems it did not build the gstreamer codec)
<Mithrandir> I'll take a look
<Mithrandir> thanks
<dholbach> oh, it did not build on other arches either
<dholbach> *STRANGE*
<dholbach> I'll be out for lunch now
<kern> hi, anybody alive here ?
<benj3one> hi
<kern> need some help with hildon desktop on ubuntu
<kern> just installed packages, desktop even starts :), but can not find some icons
<kern> qgn_plat_toolbar_menu_button_pressed.png, qgn_plat_home_border_left.png, etc
<kern> where can i get them ?
<kern> anybody ?
<Mithrandir> have you installed the ubuntu-mobile package?
<kern> yep...
<kern> I can see hildon desktop, but some icons are missing...
<kern> and google says these icons were changed in latest versions, but I can't get newer version then one from apt
<kern> simply cant find them :)
<kyleN> bfiller, make sure you check my email on support duties next week.
<GyrosGeier> hi
<bfiller> kyleN: yup, thanks for the reminder
<GyrosGeier> I'm looking for documentation on the lpia toolchain
<GyrosGeier> specifically, how to build one
<GyrosGeier> (in order to integrate that into emdebian's mighty "build all toolchains" script)
<GyrosGeier> ah
<GyrosGeier> it seems simply configuring for i486-linux-gnulp is enough
<GyrosGeier> script running now :-)
<Mithrandir> yeah, you probably want to chat with doko if there are specific questions you have about it.
<doko> GyrosGeier: i686-linux-gnulp
<GyrosGeier> hmm
<GyrosGeier> dpkg-architecture on Debian uses i486
<GyrosGeier> should I file a bug?
<GyrosGeier> I presume the gcc package does the right thing when configured for that target?
<mdamt> Just after apt-get update and try to upgrade: Failed to fetch http://archive.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/pool/universe/u/ubuntu-meta/ubuntu-mobile_1.68_i386.deb  404 Not Found
<mdamt> Seems that the desktop layout is broken.
<mdamt> Mithrandir: http://aksi.mdamt.net/hildon-input-method-unleashed
<smagoun> Anyone know how to get in touch with Bryce when he's not on IRC?
#ubuntu-mobile 2007-09-08
<mikg> hello
<mikg> anyone??
<mikg> cripes
<BlueT_Malaysia> @@
#ubuntu-mobile 2007-09-09
<figmentj13> hi
#ubuntu-mobile 2008-09-01
<smp4488> anyone home?
<StevenK> Somewhat
<smp4488> im wanting to install mobile for my car pc
<smp4488> the menlow image will that work with via processors?
<StevenK> I would suggest the McCaslin image
<smp4488> is it standalone or do i need an install of ubuntu first?
<StevenK> It is standalone
<smp4488> but for development on my main pc would i be better off installing ubuntu
<smp4488> im a gentoo user
<StevenK> Yes.
<smp4488> what version?
<StevenK> 8.04.1 is the current released version for both.
<smp4488> gotcha
<smp4488> this looks like it is going to be fun
<smp4488> so what are your opinions so far?
<StevenK> It does sound like fun
<smp4488> what do you think of using it as a car pc interface?
<StevenK> I've heard of other people trying it as well
<smp4488> we will see how i do
<Omeg1> Hello hello.
<Omeg1> I have some questions on UME, anyone lurking?
<persia> Omeg1: At least 40 people not including yourself.
<Omeg1> persia, well - I was hoping someone might be on while I was...
<persia> Omeg1: Yes, but many people were on then.  Asking if there are lurkers only interests the very very bored.  Asking some other question may interest someone.
<Omeg1> Alright.  First off, how exactly does one get started with a dev environment for UME?  I installed all the ubuntu mobile packages, but I really haven't got any leads on where to go from there.
<Omeg1> Kinda hoping I could get an environment set up.
<Omeg1> I also installed ubuntu-mobile, but didn't really get more than some new apps in my Applications menu (cool games!)
<persia> Well, there are two ways to do it.  One can install Ubuntu MID and do the development on the target machine, or one can do development on a remote machine, and pass packages to the target machine.
<persia> I tend to use the latter model: editing and changing packages on an amd64 workstation, building an lpia .deb, and then installing that on the target machine.
<Omeg1> I'll likely be doing python...
<Omeg1> So it wouldn't matter either way.
<Omeg1> Although how do you install UME only on a machine?
<Omeg1> Is there a VM for that?
<persia> I personally use vi and sbuild for 95% of what I do, so the packages I need installed locally are sbuild, vim, less, and devscripts.  There's also some useful stuff in ubutu-dev-tools, and the recommends will pull more than you need.
<persia> You can install Ubuntu MID on a target machine using the images linked in the /topic, or run in KVM.
<persia> Just boot the image, and it ought install.
<Omeg1> Alright, so now I have on my 64bit machine here the ubuntu-mobile images
<Omeg1> But when I run hildon-desktop, I get some pretty elaborate crashes.
<persia> That's not surprising.  You really want to have your machine installed as the lpia architecture if you're going to use the 8.04.1 images.
<persia> Mind you, if you're getting elaborate crashes with an lpia install, that's something that ought get fixed.
<Omeg1> Yeah, I don't have an lpia machine...
<Omeg1> Just my 64bit desktop
<persia> Hrm.
<persia> While you ought to be able to run lpia on your desktop, the hildon environment may not be ideal for typical desktop use.
<persia> I'll recommend you run lpia in a virtual machine, and use that for testing.
<Omeg1> That's what I'm leaning towards as well.
<Omeg1> So lpia, is that an app or a platform then?
<persia> lpia is an architecture.
<persia> "lpia" is similar in role to "i386" or "amd64", and all three will probably run on your desktop.
<Omeg1> What are the chances of the UME project taking on other architectures like ARMEL?
<persia> Omeg1: Well, there's a general goal of trying to find a way to make the hildon packages less architecture-specific for MID, and the Mobile seed works in any architecture supported by Ubuntu (although there are few hppa handhelds).
<gishaust> I have a ipaq 112 just given to me am I able to try embed ubuntu
<persia> There was talk about armel support at UDS, but there's been no announcement.
<persia> You might look at mojo.handhelds.org: not exactly official packages, but they ought run on armel.
<gishaust> thanks for the info I will have a look
<Omeg1> Yeah, I have an N810 and I'm hoping that UME comes around to supporting more than the intel devices.
<Omeg1> intel-based I should say.
<Omeg1> Maemo on the N810 seems weak - but is so close to what UME is... I'm surprised they haven't just put the work in themselves.
<lool> persia: Around?
<persia> lool: Generally :)
<lool> persia: At the release meeting on friday, I mentionned the installer drop for alpha 5
<lool> slangasek indicated that there's a deadline to get your code changes in before a5
<persia> I saw that.
<persia> Mind you, lpia is broken in other ways, so I have no expectation of a5 working anyway.
<lool> persia: are the ubiquity tweaks on-track to be in the archive before Tuesday (milestone freeze)?
<lool> -- was his question
<lool> persia: Wow, it's not going to work at all?
<persia> No.  You still can't even run apt-get
<lool> persia: Please raise red flag here and mail the team/list/david/me whoever
<lool> persia: Ah you mean the images are borken
<persia> Yes, but I very much don't believe it's the images.
<lool> Well I think it's qemu <-> kernel interactions
<persia> Anyway, I'm hacking livecd-rootfs to build me i386 -mid images, and when I have that working, will go back to working on the installer.
<persia> The issue can be replicated on a Q1U.
<persia> It fails on real hardware.
<persia> It has *nothing* to do with virtualisation.
<lool> Hmm
<lool> I think I should raise this with Michael
<persia> I thought you did that on Friday.
<lool> I did?
<lool> I think we discussed moving to .27
<persia> Oh.  I thought the fact that things didn't work was discussed as well.
<lool> I don't really trust my memory, it could be, but I don't recall discussing any specifics
<persia> Anyway, yeah, it doesn't work.  How and why it doesn't work is beyond my understanding.
<persia> I get failures in renaming files.
<lool> I really think this points all the way at kernel
<lool> Is there a package carrying the CFLAGS used on the buildds?
<lool> I think they add -Wformat=security or something like that, but would like to check exactly what
<lool> format-security rather
<persia> I don't know the name of the package: it may just be default settings for the tools themselves.  Check with keescook
<heruan> how can I install Ubuntu MID on my Acer Aspire One (Atom based)?
<persia> heruan: Which video chip does that use?
<heruan> uhm... intel
<heruan> now I search the model
<heruan> Intel GMA 950
<persia> OK.  I'd suggest booting the mccaslin image then, as I think the menlow image assumes -psb.  Note that this will reformat your machine, so you want to have a backup, etc. first.
<heruan> persia: sure, thanks
<persia> heruan: Good luck!
<heruan> persia: uhm, I downloaded mccaslin
<persia> heruan: OK.  And?
<heruan> it's a .img file
<heruan> dd to usb stick?
<persia> Yep.
<persia> A number of people have reported issues with bare dd: I'll recommend adding bs=1024K for best results.
<heruan> persia: ok, thank you!
<heruan> bs=1024 or bs=1024K ?
<persia> I think 1024K
<persia> (1 meg).  That ends up being a little over 500 blocks.
<persia> If that doesn't work, you can try with 1k blocks.
<persia> Ideally, it oughtn't make any difference, as the data in the .img doesn't consist of record blocks, but there seems to be some oddities about how dd handles very large numbers of blocks.
<persia> There's a bug report against dd that seems to imply the issue is related to a 28-bit boundary, but I don't really understand dd well enough to know.
<heruan> persia: ok, perfectly clear
<heruan> :)
<heruan> persia: ok, installed :)
<heruan> but the mouse doesn't work...
<heruan> no touchpad, nor usb mouse...
<ogra> the menlow image is pretty specifically built for the samsung Q1 ultra, you need to make some changes to the used xorg.conf (mainly change the mouse entry to /dev/inut/mice in xorg-samsungq1ultra.conf or how that file is called)
<heruan> ok, thank you. what's the user/pass to login on vty1?
<ogra> ume ... no passwd
<heruan> ok
<heruan> touchpad works :)
<heruan> and now... I can I enable the clutter UI?
<heruan> *how
<persia> Heh.  See, the clutter UI and the MID package aren't actually integrated in any particular way :)
<persia> That said, you could certainly remove some packages and add others to do that, but I'm not sure which packages you specifically need to adjust.
<persia> I believe the clutter-based UI stuff is based more on Ubuntu Desktop than on Ubuntu MID.
<heruan> persia: oh, I didn't know... I saw the clutter UI at http://www.ubuntu.com/products/mobile
<heruan> it seems to be running on hildon desktop
<heruan> I'll search how to do that ;)
<persia> Hrm.  That page is significantly out of date.  Oh well.
<persia> Thanks for the pointer.
<heruan> :)
<heruan> but, on balance... on an Acer Aspire One, is better to install a normal Ubuntu or the MID edition?
<persia> I don't think either is right for that sort of model.  I have a Kohjinsha SR, and find both to be a poor fit.
<persia> For intrepid, there will be both Ubuntu MID and Ubuntu Mobile, with the latter designed for 7-9" screens.
<persia> But I doubt you want to wait until October :)
<heruan> persia: eheh, of course I don't want to wait :p
<heruan> persia: very interesting that thing about ubuntu mobile
<heruan> and what about this: http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-mid/intrepid/current/
<heruan> ?
<persia> That's Ubuntu MID, for 4-6" devices.  You're encouraged to play with it, but it's mostly just a version refresh of the stuff you just installed.
<persia> Also note it's not been debugged much, so use with caution :)
<heruan> eheh, I like to be on the cutting edge
<heruan> I use Intrepid on my notebook
<heruan> mainly for NM 0.7
<persia> In that case, go ahead any play with the daily.  It's essentially the current state of Ubuntu MID for intrepid.
<heruan> so at this moment there isn't a version of Intrepid for 7-9"?
<heruan> nor a testing version?
<persia> Well, there's an ubuntu-mobile seed, and an ubuntu-mobile metapackage.  If you do a minimal install of Ubuntu with the alternate CD, and install ubuntu-mobile you ought get that.
<persia> On the other hand, at this point I think about two people have tried it, so you'll be very much involved in helping get it in shape.
<persia> Comments / opinions / thoughts welcome here, and please file *lots* of bugs.
<heruan> of course!
<heruan> bugs are to be fired against ubuntu-mobile package?
<persia> heruan: You don't happen to be a developer, do you?
<persia> No, against whichever package actually has the bug.
<heruan> ok
<persia> So, if, for instance, the bluetooth applet didn't respond to touchscreen events properly, you'd file a bug against bluez-gnome.
<DNi1> Will ubuntu MID edition compatible with Wubi ?
<persia> DNi1: I hadn't thought about that at all, and don't actually have a windows machine on which to test.
<persia> DNi1: If you'd like to stuff casper-lupin into an image, and give it a shot, it might be worth seeing if it works.
<persia> ogra: Where was the guide on adding stuff to images again?
<persia> Oops.  That's "lupin-casper"
<DNi1> that's what i thought :)
<heruan> persia: here I am... sorry
<heruan> that's the price to pay for using bleeding edge versions :p
<heruan> random freezes
<persia> heruan: No worries.  I haven't said anything of importance ince your last comment :)
<heruan> I read your last comment, I will fire bugs to related packages
<heruan> I was saying...
<heruan> I'm not a very experienced developer, but I had recompiled few packages to fit my needs in the past
<heruan> so maybe I'll be able to investigate on some bugs...
<persia> That'd be great!  We've not so many developers looking at mobile: few have the hardware, and of those that do, many are just using -desktop.
<heruan> okay, so let's go and try to install that ubuntu-mobile ;)
<heruan> I have a local mirror of Intrepid repositories so I do a pxe-boot and netinstall... but it'll take a very long time, Aspire One has a solid state disk and it seems to have long writing access times...
<heruan> I'll report here my impressions
<persia> Great.  It ought look something like http://people.ubuntu.com/~ogra/ubuntu-mobile-intrepid.png
<heruan> whoa, that's great :D
<heruan> and here I can install the clutter UI?
<persia> I suspect so, but I've not sure.  I've not personally tried ubuntu-mobile yet.
<heruan> ok, I'll find it out
<DNi1> persia: ah ! there is a kvm image now ? 
<DNi1> persia: sorry it's been a while i didnt see the repository of images
<persia> DNi1: There is a KVM image for hardy.  The intrepid images seem to work as well in KVM as they do on hardware.
<DNi1> persia: there seems many improvements on the interface with intrepid. are there other ?
<ogra> the build system :)
<ogra> and the input system (not fully working yet ut soon)
<DNi1> ogra: can you tell me more about that ?
<ogra> its using the livecd tools now 
<DNi1> really ?
<ogra> the installer will be ubiquity in a cut down version 
<DNi1> my dreams come true ? :)
<ogra> so you can actually influence the install, select a language and location etc
<DNi1> great improvements
<ogra> and we're working on an additional seed for the slightly bigger screens based on gnome and some extra pieces
<ogra> i.e. ubuntu mid -> 800x480 and very small screens, ubuntu-mobile -> 1024x600 7-10"
<ogra> very small 4-7" iirc
<DNi1> my htc shift is based on a 7"
<ogra> tough mobile will only be a first shot in intrepid ... 
<ogra> *though
<DNi1> but the native resolution is 840x480
<ogra> thats mid then
<DNi1> ii can do 1024x600 but it's not very nice
<ogra> ah, compressed video mode or some such
<DNi1> i think so
<ogra> yeah, that usually breaks fonts etc
<DNi1> a feature of intel drivers maybe
<ogra> being rather blurry
<DNi1> yeah
<DNi1> useful for some web pages very big
<ogra> for the classmate pc (7" 800x480) i developed a little screen switcher applet to do 800x600 panning mode ... thats a bit more usable
<ogra> but has its own usability probs indeed
<DNi1> i see
<DNi1> maybe i can reuse it to do 1024x600
<ogra> you can try with a different virtual size ... but that only works on hardy, i have never tested it with intrepid (since the classmate image is only aimed at hardy)
<ogra> you can check the classmate-tools package, its in the archive
<ogra> but needs the i810 driver and a special xorg.conf (shipped in the /usr/share/doc/classmate-tools dir)
<DNi1> where is the intrepid version of MID edition ?
<DNi1> i didnt see it on the official repository
<ogra> its still not ready for mainstream ... will soon be there 
<ogra> persia is working on the last bits of the installer 
<ogra> (doesnt make much sense to have an uninstallable image)
<DNi1> that's right 
<DNi1> thx for the details 
<va75a77a> I am developing on the Gumstix platform, would anyone know if there is a way to support or build ubuntu MID for the gumstix ARM architecture
#ubuntu-mobile 2008-09-02
<Nibbler> hi
<Nibbler> i noticed ubuntu-mobile is in the default 8.04 repository - is there a way to activate this, so to try it out on a desktop with touchscreen?
<persia> Nibbler: Not easily.  The 8.04 repositories contain only about 95% of what was in the Ubuntu MID release, and so expose a number of known bugs (including hard crashes).  Also, Ubuntu MID is fairly firmly tied to the lpia architecture right now.
<persia> You could reinstall your desktop with Ubuntu MID to play with it, but you'd probably do better to launch the KVM image and use that.  The touchscreen ought send the right information to KVM.
<smp4488> is there a development package for mobile?
<persia> smp4488: Not a specific package.  Development is done on a per-package basis for the packages that are part of Ubuntu Mobile, and then collected into the resulting images.
<persia> What are you trying to accomplish?  I may be able to suggest something.
<smp4488> im trying to get a car pc interface going
<smp4488> i looked at nghost but i like the mobile interface better
<smp4488> any suggestions?
<persia> Do you have target hardware?  Have you tried installing the Ubuntu MID images on that hardware?
<smp4488> i have it running on my main pc in xephyr
<persia> Ah.  I'll recommend against that.  My experience was that many things that worked in Xephy didn't work on actual hardware, and vice-cersa.
<persia> You might try running the KVM image in a virtual environment to play with it.
<smp4488> gotcha
<smp4488> right now im just trying to get a feel for it
<persia> Once you have a working install, you should be able to install any binary packages created for the lpia architecture on that install, to test various changes.
<smp4488> so what all has already been implemented, bluetooth gps?
<persia> You can create binary packages for the lpia architecture using a variety of build systems, working against an lpia chroot on nearly any x86 or x86_64 system.  I personally use sbuild, although pbuilder has a number of advocates.
<persia> So, the workflow depends on the goal.  Either adjust things on an install, or otherwise determine some change you want to try.
<persia> Make those changes to a source package, and then build a binary package for lpia that matches the source package.
<persia> Install that binary package on your install, and test the result.
<smp4488> ok bear with me in new to all this
<persia> Bluetooth works mostly, although there are still some issues.  I don't have GPS hardware, so haven't tested that.
<persia> The touch interface works fairly well, although the lack of a screen rotation applet is a bit unfortunate for tablet use (depending on content).
<smp4488> well my hopes are still high
<smp4488> my car pc is out in the garage so right now im testing it on my pc just to get everything figured out
<persia> Makes sense.  For device enablement, I do recommend having the hardware on the desk, as some things are a little different in a virtual environment, but for basic application functionality, etc. working directly on the device is likely sufficient.
<persia> Err.  working directly in a *virtual environment* is likely sufficient
<smp4488> i do agree it is better to have your actual hardware but i would rather develop on my main pc untill i get the feel for everything
<smp4488> i can run hildon from my main install but in the chrooted environment i already get errors
<smp4488> /usr/bin/mas no such file or directory
<persia> Yeah, that's why I suggest not using Xephyr.  You'll find a virtual install much more likely to work cleanly.
<smp4488> ok so where do i start with that, virtual machiene?
<smp4488> KVM i assume
<persia>  http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/mobile/releases/hardy/ has an image for KVM which is probably a good place to start.
<persia> You can use apt-get to add more packages to that image later.
<smp4488> ok we will see how that goes
<smp4488> i am having trouble with KVM is ther a channel for that?
<persia> What sort of trouble?  For something simple and about the image, we might be able to help here.  For more complex questions, #ubuntu-virt is probably better.
<smp4488> im getting errors about hardware acceleration
<persia> Ah.  Does `grep vm /proc/cpuinfo` produce any output?
<smp4488> yes
<smp4488> a bunch of flags
<persia> OK.  I'm going to guess that you have the virtualisation extensions turned off in your bios.
<smp4488> yea thats what someone else said
<persia> Alternately, it may be that the necessary kernel modules aren't loaded.
<smp4488> im going to reboot and look
<smp4488> where would the setting be in the bios?
<persia> Does `sudo modprobe kvm` help?
<persia> In mine, it's under "Advanced", but that may not mean much :)
<smp4488> yea it works
<smp4488> it loaded the module
<persia> Can you run kvm with the module loaded?  Might just be the missing module.
<smp4488> i can load that module but when i try to load kvm-amd i get errors
<smp4488> opperation not supported
<smp4488> i will brb let me reboot and see what i can find
<smp4488_> you still here
<smp4488_> i couldnt find anything in the bios
<smp4488_> im on my laptop now
<persia> Annoying that.  And the kvm module is loaded, and KVM still doesn't work?  I wouldn't expect that if /proc/cpuinfo contained some vm* flag.
<smp4488_> i dont ts your acceptance of this policy. For details on
<smp4488_>  - freenode network policy, please take a look at our policy
<smp4488_>  - page (http://freenode.net/policy.shtml). Thank you for using
<smp4488_>  - the network!
<smp4488_>  - 
<smp4488_>  - freenode is a service of Peer-Directed Projects Center, an
<smp4488_>  - IRS 501(c)(3) not-for-profit organization.  Our yearly
<persia> My apologies, but my knowledge of how it ought work doesn't extend much further: you might try on #ubuntu-virt.
<smp4488_>  - fundraihink so
 * persia blames synaptics
<smp4488_> im going to reboot and se what i can come up with
<smp4488_> you think it may be something in the kernel?
<persia> Good luck.
<persia> Well, I don't know that much about KVM, but I do know that it requires a kernel module to run, and that the kernel module requires some capabilities in the processor.
<persia> I believe that one can detect this with `grep vm /proc/cpuinfo`, but I may be mistaken.
<persia> I know some BIOSes turn off the virtualisation, or have turning it on or off as an option.  I'm not sure how this works other than for the one of my machines that supports KVM (most of them don't)
<smp4488__> this is lame
<smp4488__> i need to update my bios
<gfcs> hey guys
<gfcs> one question
<gfcs> Ubuntu MDI works in Nokia n810 ??
<smp4488> ok now i am getting somewhere
<persia> gfcs: No.  The Nokia n810 has an ARM processor, and Ubuntu doesn't have an ARM buildds.  You might be interested in mojo.handhelds.org : most of the packages ought be recompiled for ARM there.
<persia> smp4488: The BIOS update enabled the KVM option?
<gfcs> persia, Thank you
<smp4488> no im trying to use virtualbox
<smp4488> now im gettin kernel module errors but im working on it
<persia> Yeah, virtualbox works for more processors.  I think you have to convert the qcow2 image into another format to load into virtualbox, but I admit I don't actually know the commands to do that.
<smp4488> im getting kernel module errors now though
<persia> I remember hearing something about kernel module version skew, but I don't really know the details.  You may need to pull some special different package to make it work.
<smp4488> or install the right module
<persia> heh.  indeed :)
<smp4488> i think i found it
<smp4488> nope
<smp4488> ok i have virtualbox going
<smp4488> now how do i load the image lol
<smp4488> sweet jesus i finally got it to boot and its not even on my test pc
<persia> Cool!
<smp4488> but now it is searching for installation source
<smp4488> sleep for 5 seconds
<smp4488> how do i fix that?
<persia> smp4488: Sorry: I've been distracted.  I'm not sure exactly, but many reports are that it takes a very long time to install.
<Nibbler> persia: thanks
<amitk> asac: you take care of firefox too, right?
<amitk> bug 262693 is causing firefox to shutdown. I guess I'll just turn off flash.
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 262693 in flashplugin-nonfree "Flash not working: Intrepid, 2.6.27, FF3" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/262693
<persia> amitk: You may find a wider number of firefox maintainers in #ubuntu-mozillateam
<amitk> persia: ok
<amitk> persia: duh... just noticed that I was posting to ubuntu-mobile, instead of ubuntu-devel :)
<persia> amitk: #ubuntu-devel might also be a good forum, but I think #ubuntu-mozillateam is likely best :)
<nibbler> what are .kvm and .qcow2 files? 
<nibbler> or: what install media can i use to just install ubuntu-mobile from cd eg, or test it in a vm?
<nibbler> ah... kvm.... ahhhhhh
<persia> nibbler: There are also some .img files, and you can use dd to put them on a USB stick for installation on real target hardware.
<nibbler> ah okay.... will this give me a live system, or just an installer?
<nxvl> good morning
<persia> The images are just the installer.  The KVM is a live system
<nibbler> okay, i'll try get the kvm running then
<nibbler> thanks
<smp4488> anyone here?
<persia> smp4488: Three score of us, not including yourself.
<smp4488> lol
<smp4488> man i am having nothing but problems
<smp4488> im getting that checking device for installation source over and over
<persia> I thought you had decided on a virtual solution?  In that case, you want to use the virtual images.  The install images assume they are attached via USB, and the virtual environments don't handle that so well.
<smp4488> ahh so where do i find thos image files?
<smp4488> i am using virtual box
<smp4488> any suggestions?
<nibbler> check topic
<smp4488> i have the image file but i keep getting the searching for source error
<smp4488> it sleeps for 5 then does it over and over
<nibbler> ah ok... no idea
<nibbler> never seen this ubuntu-mobile
<persia> smp4488: The install image, or the KVM image?
<smp4488> i converted the kvm image
<smp4488> the .img file
<smp4488> to .vdi
<smp4488> but then i downloaded the tar and im going to see what i can do with that image
<smp4488> which one do i want to convert the .img or the .kvm
<ogra> the .qcow2
<smp4488> convert it to vdi?
<ogra> right
<ogra> well, first to .raw
<ogra> from there to .vdi
<smp4488> so not the .img or .kvm
<ogra> .kvm is a script iirc
<ogra> calling qemu -kvm blah.qcow2
 * ogra runs out 
<smp4488> gotcha
<smp4488> now i get kernel module errors on startup
<persia> Excellent.  That's expected, and you can safely ignore them.
<smp4488> the screen blinks and what is the login?
<smp4488> oh and the swap failed to load
<persia> I believe it's username ume and password ubuntu.
<persia> Change the password if you intend to have any private data :)
<smp4488> thanks
<smp4488> nut why does the screen keep blinking?
<persia> That's not a question to which I know the answer :)
<smp4488> now im getting somewhere
<smp4488> im trying to install something and i am missing build and header files for my kernel
<smp4488> where are the config files for mobile?
<heruan> hi all
<heruan> I installed ubuntu-mobile on my Aspire One
<guruz> great
<guruz> i'm planning to do that too
<guruz> what can you tell about it
<guruz> :D
<guruz> the netbook remix thing?
<heruan> exaclty... the package ubuntu-mobile comes without the netbook-remix, but with an hackish gnome environment
<heruan> that's not ideal... so I installed the netbook-remix and I found it fantastic
<guruz> :)
<guruz> My current problem is that I am only using firefox
<guruz> and i don't care much where it runs O:-)
<guruz> But well.. as soon as I have some time ;)
<heruan> are you using ubuntu-desktop or mid edition?
<guruz> that default thing
<guruz> linpus
<heruan> ah, okay :p
<guruz> it's lame, i know
<heruan> no, no... linpus has a great pro: boot time
<heruan> I don't know how it can boot so quickly
<heruan> I think it's a must shortening boot time in ubuntu-mobile
<guruz> Yeah
<guruz> that's right
<guruz> the boot time is incredible
<guruz> hm, then let's hope ubuntu does at least save more battery power than linpus
<guruz> and i'd like to have suspend to disk too ;)
<smp4488> anyone know where the config files are for mobile
#ubuntu-mobile 2008-09-03
<smp4488> so is everything coded in c++?
<persia> smp4488: Config files are in /etc, in the user home directory, and in gconf.  Code is mostly in python, C, and C++, although you will find other stuff as well.
<nxvl> C is cool
<persia> nxvl: Congratulations: You've successflly expanded the acronym :)
<nxvl> :D
<smp4488> awesome
<smp4488> most of my programming skill is c# in .net
<smp4488> is there such thing as intellisense with eclipse?
<persia> No idea.  I'm not even sure if using eclipse under Ubuntu MID works cleanly.
<smp4488> i have it running
<smp4488> what do you perfer?
<smp4488> prefer 
<persia> I use vi, but it's not exactly most people's idea of an IDE.
<smp4488> yea like i said im coming from visual studio
<smp4488> ahh kdevelop looks nice
<lool> StevenK: Today's daily starts up Xorg, but hangs there for me; did you by chance look into this already?
<lool> ogra: So it points at the union fs
<ogra> aufs :)
<lool> Which is an union fs :-P
<ogra> in my case at least
<lool> ogra: You could try to fiddle with mount options to workaround it
<ogra> is the booted image using unionfs or sufs ? 
<ogra> *aufs
<lool> ogra: I think you should write a two lines mmap() test case and file that against aufs
<StevenK> lool: Nope
 * ogra thinks casper ises aufs as well today
<ogra> *uses
<lool> ogra: It uses casper's default
<persia> I wonder if it might be related to the script used to create the USB image.  What happens if you build it as a liveCD?
<persia> (and make a .iso)
<lool> ogra: Could you try with union=unionfs?
<ogra> lool, i dont use casper :) https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileAndEmbedded/ImageModification
<ogra> but i'll try with unionfs
<ogra> persia, the script at the bottom makes everything quite easy
<lool> ogra: You asked about the booted image
<ogra> lool, indeed i did
<ogra> but to verify an aufs error i can just use unionfs in the chroot
<lool> ogra: Right, so could you please try with unionfs, not union=unionfs?  :)
<ogra> indeed :)
 * ogra notices he forgot the unionfs mount runes he used to know from the top of his head ... too much aufs in my life already
<ogra> lool, works !
<persia> So it's an aufs issue?
<lool> StevenK: Ignore me, image works I was just being stupid
<ogra> yes
<lool> ogra: Unfortunately, casper seems broken with unionfs for me here
<StevenK>  /ignore lool ...
<lool> or I'm missing something
<persia> Excellent.  Please reassign the bug :)
<ogra> persia, you should achieve the same with the union=unionfs parameter for the booted image then
<ogra> lool, likely because there is no module
<lool> ogra: "modprobe unionfs" in the initramfs doesn't output anything
<persia> ogra: I'll try that then :)
<ogra> we stopped building it with intrepid, it was re-added for -generic 
<ogra> but might be missing for lpia
<lool> ogra: It's missing indeed
 * lool though modprobe could at least barf something when I ask for a module which isn't there
<ogra> not in initramfs 
 * ogra fixes the howto and script on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileAndEmbedded/ImageModification
<ogra> StevenK, you only leave 20M spare space in the .img, i think if people are likely to add packages and modify we should raise that to at least 100M
<ogra> (at least during development)
<lool> ogra: I reassigned to linux
<lool> amitk: Around?
<lool> amitk: You usually don't work on Weds, but just if you're tempted: it would be nice to get unionfs in the lpia tree
<lool> ogra: Hmm I was wrong to reassign to linux
<ogra> yeah, should likely be lum
<lool> ogra: So the daily live is also using aufs and it works fine
<lool> ogra: lum?  we don't have this for 2.6.26 anymore do we?
<ogra> hmm, right
<ogra> ogra@osiris:~$ dpkg -S /lib/modules/2.6.27-2-generic/kernel/ubuntu/unionfs/unionfs.ko
<ogra> linux-image-2.6.27-2-generic: /lib/modules/2.6.27-2-generic/kernel/ubuntu/unionfs/unionfs.ko
<lool> ogra: that's why I originally assigned to linux, but it doesn't suffer from the bug in 2.6.27
<lool> persia: Did you try my suggestion of using the live vmlinuz and initrds instead of the lpia ones?
<lool> StevenK: Michael (Frey) tried the image on a CB yesterday and said it wouldn't boot
<lool> StevenK: And it wouldn't boot under hardy's kvm either, but that's not worse chasing
<StevenK> lool: I saw that. I'm not sure of the cause
<lool> StevenK: Would you be tempted to try it out on your CB?
<amitk> lool: intrepid?
<lool> amitk: everything intrepid
<amitk> lool: may I ask why?
<lool> amitk: Or a fix for aufs
<StevenK> lool: I've added a todo item to do so
<lool> amitk: Because aufs breaks when apps use mmap() and it makes our images unusable; if we can fix this today, we will get an usable alpha 5 image
<lool> Hmm unless it's too late already
<lool> StevenK: Thanks
<amitk> lool: it won't happen today
<lool> amitk: Would locating the aufs fix and cherrypicking it be faster?
<amitk> lool: yes, patching aufs is better, but I won't manage a new kernel upload today. Besides aren't we in freeze now?
<lool> amitk: We are, but what's the risk of uploading linux-lpia if it's broken anyway?
<lool>  * [new branch]      foo        -> origin/foo
<lool> Someone pushed a foo branch to ubuntu-intrepid
<amitk> heh :)
<lool> amitk: Unfortunately, I don't see many aufs changes/fixes in the intrepid tree
<lool> i suspect a newer version was pulled
<lool> or it simply works with a newer kernel
<persia> lool: No.  I rebuilt images that used the same vmlinuz and initrds as the livecds in a different way.
<lool> persia: For lpia?
<persia> lool: No, for i386.
<amitk> lool: aufs claims to support mmap()
<persia> For lpia, there are no live disks.
<lool> amitk: Hmm what's the linux-lpia git tree?  I see yours, I see some of the "mid-team" -- no matching one -- and I see no Vcs-Git in the source
<lool> amitk: Yes, the problem is that it hangs when you use that support :)
<amitk> so if this is a bug in aufs, it will affect i386 too
<lool> amitk: It's not affecting i386 in 2.6.27
<lool> Well to be honest I tested on amd64
<lool> But I think we would have heard if the live CDs were as borken for i386 as for lpia
<amitk> lool: amitk/ubuntu-intrepid-lpia.git is the tree for lpia on intrepid
<lool> amitk: I thought Michael was the maintainer?
<amitk> But I started the tree and expected Michael to clone and create his own. But I just understood yesterday that I get back maintainership of lpia tree for intrepid
<lool> Welcome back!
<amitk> Michael hasn't made any changes...
<lool> amitk: I wonder: perhaps you should have an ubuntu/ubuntu-intrepid-lpia tree rather than an amitk/ one?
<ogra> humm, how do i make the wiki not swallow #!/bin/sh ? between curly brackets ?
<amitk> thanks. But it is going to take me a day or two to push pending patches and do another upload. I hope to fix meta package issue as well.
<StevenK> ogra: {{{ }}}
<ogra>  {{{#!/bin/sh }}}
<ogra> hides it 
<amitk> lool: I will move it to ubuntu/.... This was supposed to be a temporary tree to hand-off to Michael :)
<lool> ogra: {{{\n#!/bin/sh\n}}}?
<lool> amitk: Ah understood
<ogra> lool, hmm that shows the \n 
<persia> ogra: Also, if you have a long {{{}}} block, you may need to start with a format specifier (unfortunately nearly the same syntax as the script identifier.
<lool> ogra: The \n were for IRC :)
 * persia digs up an example page.
<lool> ogra: Try with newlines
<ogra> lool, then it gets swallowed
<ogra> only the first line 
<persia> ogra: You need a format specifier in the beginning.
<ogra> the rest of the scrit is fine, but i want it copy pasteable
<persia> lool: None of that will work.
<persia> ogra: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/School/PackagingWithoutCompiling?action=raw
<ogra> persia, perfect, thanks :)
<persia> See the way the first bash script is done: I tell moin that it is a bash script for syntax highlighting, and then it doesn't swallow the script identifier.
<lool> I hate openid
<persia> lool: The idea, or just all the poor implementations?
<lool> ogra: {{{#!/bin/sh #!/bin/sh works :)
<ogra> heh
<ogra> well, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileAndEmbedded/ImageModification done and verified ... use the script at the bottom and you get a rootshell inside the squashfs to modify whatever you want :)
<persia> lool: It works by accident, but will confuse moin.  Better is #!sh #!/bin/sh
<ogra> as long as the shebang line is in the copy/paste all is fine :)
<persia> The first is the format specifier for moin, and the second is literal content
<davidm> hello
<davidm> ogra, I guess I have  more wiki changes to make. :-)
<ogra> davidm, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileAndEmbedded/ImageModification feel free to test with the recent images ... 
<ian_brasil> ogra: that is cool
 * ogra proposed to use the shellscript at the bottom though
<ogra> *proposes
<ogra> ian_brasil, thanks :) 
<davidm> ogra, I just need to put it in the new hierarchy, but I'll test also later today.
<ogra> great 
<ian_brasil> davidm: some of the links on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileAndEmbedded are borken
<persia> ian_brasil: Lots of them.  We're transitioning to https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileTeam
<persia> (this may take a while)
 * ogra always uses the FAQ url from /topic as a starpoint if creating ne pages... we should adjust that 
<ogra> *new
<lool> ogra: Hey what about putting your script in a bzr tree or something; heck perhaps we should have an ubuntu-mobile-scripts package
<ogra> yeah, i thought about that ... 
<ogra> there are surely more things we want to have for image modification
<davidm> ian_brasil, I spent 5 hours yesterday reworking links, have lots more to do.
<lool> Poor davidm 
<persia> ogra: Someone needs to write a new FAQ first :)
<ian_brasil> davidm: OK...i wondered about the weekly status summaries too whilst we are talking about more to do :0
<ogra> persia, heh
 * ian_brasil hus lool for his great report
<ian_brasil> a/hus/hugs
<davidm> ian_brasil, I sent out three this week.
<davidm> so we are up to date on status summeries
<ian_brasil> just found it in my inbox...thats great!
<persia> OK.  Mobile Team FAQ brainstorming time:
<persia> Let see:
<persia> #1: What does the Mobile Team do?
<persia> #2: How can I help?
<persia> #3: What is the Ubuntu Mobile project?
<persia> #4: What is the Ubuntu MID projects?
<persia> #5) Have you considered ARM?
<persia> Anyone have any other suggestions?
<persia> Oh, #6) Is this the team for the netbook-remix?
<persia> lool: ian_brasil: davidm: ?  Anything else about the team that seems like it ought be on the FAQ?
<ian_brasil> persia: can i run ume on <insert_device> has historically been a very popular question
<lool> persia: #4 s/projects/project
<persia> lool: Yes :)
<lool> ian_brasil: +1
<persia> ian_brasil: Indeed.  I'm tempted to put that in the FAQ for the individual projects though, as the answers may diverge over time.
<StevenK> lool: You were under the impression that moblin-clutter-home was a hildon-desktop library?
<persia> StevenK: Any more suggestions for a FAQ before I write one up?
<StevenK> persia: "Where can I find images?"
<persia> StevenK: For the team FAQ, and not the project FAQs?
<Celtiore> hi
<Celtiore> just for infos : 
<persia> Celtiore: Hi.
<Celtiore> ubuntu mobile edition 7.10 with dualboot on aigo mid p8860
<Celtiore> http://www.umpcfever.com/viewthread.php?tid=2544&pid=11757&page=1&extra=page%3D1#pid11757
<ian_brasil> persia: just ideas:
<StevenK> persia: Oh. Um, none are springing to mind
<ian_brasil> where is the ume code? where are bugs filed?where can i find a list of compatible devices?
<lool> StevenK: It was my understanding
<ian_brasil> is there a developer device program?
<persia> Celtiore: Cool.  Thanks for sharing the link.
<Celtiore> np
<StevenK> lool: It isn't, it builds as an executable
<ian_brasil> where can i find the UI guidelines?
<StevenK> Unless ./configure needs some fiddling
<persia> ian_brasil: Do you think those belong in the project FAQs or on the team FAQ?
<ian_brasil> where can i buy a ume device?
<persia> I think they are good questions, I'm just thinking about information organisation.
<persia> (and sadly, the answer to the last question is: you need to buy something else and install an image)
<ian_brasil> persia: i would think the platform
<persia> ian_brasil: Hmm.  I think we've a nomenclature issue, as I don't know what that means :)
<persia> Essentially, there are three mooted hierarchies: MobileTeam, UbuntuMobile, and UbuntuMID.
<ian_brasil> oops...i meant project, sorry
<persia> OK.  No problem.  Just my confusion :)
<ian_brasil> of those three i will shoot for UbuntuMobile FAQ then
<ian_brasil> however maybe the device related questions could fit in  UbuntuMID
<persia> I think most of it belongs in UbuntuMID right now, as UbuntuMobile only really got it's first proper seed adjustments last week, and as far as I know, it doesn't actually run anywhere yet :)
<ian_brasil> but most people will arrive i imagine through a search for Ubuntu Mobile so it might be confusing if they get la page about UbuntuMID
<persia> ian_brasil: Hmm.  Maybe have a note on the Ubuntu Mobile project that people may also be interested in the Ubuntu MID project?
<persia> Part of the confusion is that the answers differ wildly.  While Ubuntu MID expects lpia, I believe Ubuntu Mobile is likely to also work on i386 (and probably other architectures)
<ian_brasil> persia: some info about project directions would be very useful too
<persia> ian_brasil: Yeah, but I think that everything known about project directions is documented at the end of this line.
<persia> There's the loose stuff, like MID being 4-6" devices (of which there are *two* on the market, and only one available outside Japan), and Mobile being 7-9" devices.
<ian_brasil> persia: i didn't know that but that would really help if i wanted to buy a device
<persia> ian_brasil: Mind you, it's somewhat complicated by the fact that as far as I know, nobody has ever run Ubuntu MID on the target devices.
<davidm> persia, new section in wiki https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileTeam/Mobile/HowTo/
<persia> So I've no clue if it works.
<davidm> Need to add more there.
<persia> davidm: Good idea.
<ian_brasil> davidm: is this the preferred way to modify images now rather than use the MIC?
<davidm> ian_brasil, it's the way we make images, Intel is staying with MIC but we found that for what we do and how we do it, MIC was not the right tool.
<persia> Plus, MIC has some awkwardnesses that make automation of images in a clean environment tricky.
 * ian_brasil could never get MIC to work correctly so is happy about this
<persia> ian_brasil: If you've an intrepid chroot, you can install the livecd-rootfs package and just call `livecd.sh ubuntu-mid` to make a base image.
<ian_brasil> persia: yes, i ended up working in a chroot environment in the end not MID ..thx for the info about the script though, that is cool
<ian_brasil> s/MID/MIC
<persia> ian_brasil: Then you experienced all the same issues as the rest of us :)
<ogra> lool, "linux (2.6.27) not affected; linux-lpia is" ... you should probably note there that you are talking about the unionfs module in that sentence ... (which is unrealted to the hang which i suspect we'll see on the normal liveCD as well)
 * persia boots the liveCD to check
<lool> ogra: I'm talking of the aufs bug here
<ogra> lool, well, during my chroot tests i was running -generic
<lool> ogra: I thought I checked that it worked, but I'll confirm in a sec
<ogra> (2.6.27-2-generic to be precise)
<lool> ogra: apt-get update and sudo apt-get update work on the i386 daily
<ogra> good
<persia> ogra: Works fine on the i386 livecd
<ogra> so we are probably doing something different wrt mount options
<ogra> during chrooting i just did a plain aufs mount, no extra options
<ogra> heh
<ogra> see -devel
<ogra> bug 144001
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 144001 in apt "crashes with SystemError: E:Unable to write mmap - msync" [Critical,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/144001
<persia> Cool!
<lool> amitk: ^
<ogra> hmm
<ogra> they are using nionfs there
<ogra> *unionfs
<persia> I didn't see anything especially different in livecd.sh.  Also, we are getting all the same special mountpoints (e.g. /rofs) that exist on the liveCD.
<Celtiore> i have one question
<Celtiore> how can i add an shortcuts to the desktop of ume ?
<persia> Celtiore: Create a .desktop file for that which you want to appear.  Ensure that it contains "Mobile" in the "OnlyShowIn" key.
<Celtiore> thanks you
<amitk> lool: hmmm.. that is talking about Hardy and unionfs.
<persia> amitk: The suggestion was that the bugs might be related.
<Celtiore> persia,  i suppose the inverse if i want remove one ?
<persia> Celtiore: Yep.
<amitk> persia: gotcha. I am slow today. I'll look at it tomorrow along with refreshing the linux-lpia tree.
<persia> amitk: You may also want to watch the current discussion in -devel, which is on this topic, and involves a wider number of people.
<ogra> (or read the log in your worktime :) )
<persia> Nah.  Realtime always beats backscroll :)
<ogra> yeah, but freetime beats worktime :)
<Celtiore> persia,  for example : foobillard don't have the OnlyShowIN key ?! how can i remove ?
<persia> Celtiore: I suspect you'll find an extra foobilliard .desktop file installed.
<Celtiore> sudo apt-get remove foobillard works fine :)
<persia> Well, there's that option as well :)
<lool> amitk: FYI I checked the intrepid and linux-lpia trees and they match
<lool> err + aufs
<lool> ubuntu/aufs is identical
<lool> So nothing to pull below aufs I'm afraid
<ogra> lool, but probably something to pul from unionfs into aufs 
<ogra> *pull
 * ogra yays getting that nasty gstreamer patching done finally
<lool> ogra: Didn't know the codebases were related
<ogra> lool, i dont know either, but cjwatson recommended comparing the two
<ogra> so i suspect there are some similarities
<ogra> especially if the bug lies in the rename function which seems to have its own .c file in both implementations
<ogra> but up to amit, he's the kernel hacker ... lets see what he finds
<ogra> i dont trust my kernel code knowledge enough to judge it 
<lool> ogra: But we don't get the bug in the intrepid aufs (linux)
<ogra> i do
<ogra> in the chroot 
<lool> Oh right on your system
<lool> Good point
<lool> I wonder what changes that we don't get it in the livecd
<ogra> yeah
<ogra> thats pretty strange
<ogra> does the livecd already use 2.6.27-2 ? or still -1
<lool> I think I saw -2 today
<ogra> so unlikely to be a difference in the version
<ogra> i dont like to return to unionfs though
<ogra> as its supposed to be dropped at some point
<persia> In fact, it's supposed to have been dropped.
<ogra> there were complaints
<persia> Also, as this issue doesn't affect the liveCDs, there exists a proper solution with what we have in intrepid.
<ogra> i'll download a live iso over night and try the same chrooting with the livecd squashfs i did with the image 
<ogra> lets see if i can reproduce it that way
<persia> That sounds like an interesting idea.
<Celtiore> on UME can we change background with pictures ?
<persia> Celtiore: Yes.  There's a background selector tool in the Preferences.  I think you can use anything in your Pictures folder, but I'm not entirely sure.
<Celtiore> ok but where i can find background selector:)
<persia> At the top there should be a label "All".  touch that, and select "Preferences".  It should be in there somewhere.
<persia> (and no, I don't understand why "preferences" is not part of "all")
<Celtiore> i check one more time but i only change the color of background
<Celtiore> i have : desktop background preferences :
<Celtiore> 'solid color background'
<persia> Hmm.  Which image are you using?
<ian_brasil> Celtiore: you need to scroll down!
 * ian_brasil likes the junglecreek background
<Celtiore> no image for the moment
<Celtiore> i only search how to change
<Celtiore> i need put one image in a specific directory perhaps ?
<ian_brasil> I did....All -> Preferences -> Scroll down to reveal the Desktop Background button -> Change background
<ian_brasil> there are presetes like jungle creeek and so on
<ian_brasil> Maybe all images should be visible without needing to scroll down?
<Celtiore> http://public.celtiore.fr/Mid/DSC00158.JPG
<Celtiore> i can't scroll
 * persia boots an image to see if maybe the name of the app is different.
<persia> Celtiore: You're running 8.04.1?
<Celtiore> nan 7.10
<ogra> there was a UME for 7.10 ? 
<persia> Oh.  I've never tried that one.
<persia> ogra: There was, although it's hard to find the images.
<Celtiore> yep
<persia> Celtiore: I'll recommend upgrading to 8.04.1.  It's in much better shape.
<persia> There's a few things that make more sense in 7.10 (if I can remember correctly from running in Xephyr), but 8.04.1 is much more solid.
<ian_brasil> in 7.10 you need to import the image
<Celtiore> ok
<Celtiore> i need to wait new image
<ian_brasil> Celtiore: you have a device...how cool
<Celtiore> yes aigo mid p8860
<ian_brasil> you got this in france?
<Celtiore> no, buy on ebay
<celtiore_ume> xchat working too
<amitk> ogra: lool: I am confused from the scrollback. You claim aufs in intrepid works, but livecds don't?
<persia> amitk: livecds work, but we've been able to break it with other constructions (including the current MID images)
<ogra> amitk, if you use the daily image from StevenK and the script from https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileAndEmbedded/ImageModification with a replaced unionfs vs aufs you should be able to reproduce it easily
<amitk> ogra: persia: ok. will start by reproducing the bug.
<persia> amitk: Please let me know if you have any issues.  For me, it was as simple as booting the daily image, and calling `sudo apt-get update`
<amitk> persia: will do. You seem to be online in every TZ as it is ;)
<persia> amitk: I once prided myself on the fact that it was impossible to identify my location by the times I was active.
<persia> It's not so important now, as it's become cliche, but even when I'm not about, highlighting my nick will likely get you an answer when I return.
 * persia grumles at epiphany crashing *again* and losing the wiki edits.  Trying again in a text editor...
* persia changed the topic of #ubuntu-mobile to:  Ubuntu Mobile | FAQ: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileTeam/FAQ  | images: http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/mobile/releases/hardy/ | Help test intrepid: http://cdimages.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-mid/intrepid/current/
<persia> So, if anyone wants to fix all my mistakes in https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileTeam/FAQ, I'd be very appreciative :)
<GrueMaster> persia:  what kernel are you finalizing on?
<persia> GrueMaster: I'm not entirely sure.  I strongly suspect it will be 2.6.27, but this version was released late in the cycle and is currently undergoing fairly aggressive testing to confirm that it will be suitable for release.
<GrueMaster> k
<persia> As I understand it, unless a large number of regressions from 2.6.26 are found in the next 10 days or so, it will be 2.6.27.
<persia> Initial reports with 2.6.27 have all been positive, so I think that's fairly unlikely.
<GrueMaster> Reason I ask is that I'm still trying to port the psb video drivers, and moblin is less than enjoyable to test under.
<GrueMaster> and I'll leave the moblin 2.0 opinion at that for now.  :)
<persia> GrueMaster: Understood :)
<persia> Let's agree it's desgined for use, rather than development.  That preserves us from having to have a firm opinion, as we're not the target segment :)
<GrueMaster> sounds about right.
<davidm> persia, thanks for getting the FAQ up :-)
<landley> davidm: have you seen Google's chrome browser yet?
<davidm> nope, have not actually
<landley> davidm: http://www.google.com/googlebooks/chrome
<landley> It looks REALLY COOL.
<landley> Right now it's early beta, but they wrote a _comic_book_ explaining its design.
<landley> It's a bunch of independent processes.
<landley> If one tab crashes, it doesn't take down the whole thing.
<landley> When tabs exit, their memory gets freed.
<landley> And it's a from-scratch rewrite that's neither mozilla, nor in c++ (as far as I can tell).
<landley> What I'm really looking forward to is being able to use "top" to see which darn tab is eating all my CPU.
<landley> And kill it.
<davidm> It does look interesting, maybe it will be better then FF
<landley> Anything would be better than FF.
<landley> I'm still using Konqueror almost exclusively, despite that being written in C++, because it's _not_mozilla_.
<landley> neither of which is really a good embedded browser.  This thing looks like it might be pushed in that direction...
<davidm> Does look interesting
<landley> davidm: http://dev.chromium.org/getting-involved
<landley> Actually, that link's junk (windows).  http://dev.chromium.org/developers/how-tos/build-instructions-linux is the interesting bit.
<landley> (Nevermind, first link was top level.  I think I've hit my sleep deprivation limit.)
<landley> g'night all... :)
<smp4488> hay persia you around?
<smp4488> I have another question for ya
#ubuntu-mobile 2008-09-04
<smp4488> what are some good books or sites to get into gtk+ and c++
<lool> GrueMaster: Everything points at 2.6.27; my understanding is that the choice of 2.6.27 isn't challenged anymore for the main distro, and the only thing which could keep linux-lpia for Ubuntu MID to 2.6.26 would be Intel drivers only available for 2.6.26 and not working with .27
<GrueMaster> I'm working on the video drivers now, but I need a stable build environment.  Moblin doesn't provide that yet.
<lool> GrueMaster: I hope the psb drivers will work with the in kernel drm in 2.6.26 or 27 though, or add a new drm
<lool> GrueMaster: Intrepid is decent in my experience, but probably no fglrx
<GrueMaster> It currently is the same psb driver we know and love.  My understanding is there is going to be a rewrite, but that is after intrepid.
<GrueMaster> don't care about fglrx.
<lool> I heard from various places that powervr drivers would land near november or end 2008
<lool> I think around beagleboard for one
<GrueMaster> yes, that's my understanding too.  They want to convert the drivers from the TTM model to the new GEMS model.  
<lool> GrueMaster: The drm is going to be a serious issue: we don't have the ppa anymore, and we can't up to a git snapshot of libdrm just for psb  :-/
<GrueMaster> Same as the GMA9xx desktop video.
<GrueMaster> hmmm.
<GrueMaster> I'll have to look at the libdrm code and see what is new.  If the new stuff can be isolated to psb, but the library still remain compatible, will that work?
<lool> GrueMaster:     libdrm | 2.3.0-4ubuntu1 |         hardy | source
<lool>     libdrm | 2.3.1-0build1 |      intrepid | source
<lool> GrueMaster: I think psb in kernel and the libdrm we used in hardy builds (in the ppa) was from a quite different upstream tree
<lool> Anyway, it's pretty clear that we would love if the drivers work with intrepid's libdrm and will see what to do if it doesn't :)
<GrueMaster> the kernel drm is definitely different, but I think it it was backwards compatible (until 2.6.27, that is).
<GrueMaster> I can run tests once I get the kernel modules built.  For now, I need a kernel to build and test with.
<lool> GrueMaster: You have the details for the ubuntu tree?
<GrueMaster> I'll look you up again tomorrow.  Wife is telling me it's time to go home.  I don't have the details for Intrepid.
<lool> GrueMaster: If you're choosing what to base on, you can grab our 2.6.26 tree which is called ubuntu/ubuntu-intrepid on kernel.ubuntu.com
<lool> Err .27
<GrueMaster> I've tried updating a hardy build environment, but the kernel is still missing.
<lool> And it's derived from upstream .27
<GrueMaster> ok
<lool> It's also time to stop work here
<lool> 'night/evening
<GrueMaster> See you.
<smp4488> what are some good books or sites to get into gtk+ and c++
<smp4488> cam i use glade while configuring the gui?
<persia>  smp4488: For the first question, #gtk+ is probably a better channel.  The answer to the second question is in the /topic for that channel.
<smp4488> look im new to this and im sorry if i am asking too many stupid questions
<smp4488> i think a may have started with something with a steep learning curve
<smp4488> but im trying
<smp4488> not to be smart or anything but i dont see anything about glade in the topic, faq, web site
<persia> smp4488: There are no stupid questions, just some for which the answer lies elsewhere :)
<persia> I thought the /topic for #gtk+ said something like "Do use glade, but don't use glade to generate source code".  Are you sure?
<smp4488> ooooh
<smp4488> i thought you meant this channel
<smp4488> my fault
<smp4488> im trying to get my head around this gtk+ programming
<persia> smp4488: Right.  While this channel may be able to help with some questions specifically about gtk+ programming for something Ubuntu Mobile specific, most of your general questions are probably better answered there.
<persia> I don't mean to put you off, it's just that the GTK+ folk know how to program gtk+ better than the Ubuntu Mobile folk.
<smp4488> gotcha
<smp4488> i want to help out but it seems like im getting in too deep and not doing much for anyone
<smp4488> even though i do enjoy it
<persia> smp4488: IF you're enjoying it, it's worth doing.  At some point you'll get something together you want to share with everyone else :)
<smp4488> lol we will see about that
<smp4488> so is intrepid mobile based on the the new ubuntu beta?
<persia> Well, not precisely "based on", but more "part of", and it's an Alpha.  Anyway, I'll explain more when you come back.
<lool> amitk: I checked a patch Colin King wrote for hardy's lum (unionfs) as I was told the fixes to unionfs might be relevant for aufs, but saw not much similarity
<amitk> lool: I have confirmed colin's comment about it happening on the rename syscall. But I also saw it atleast once in the open syscall
<lool> amitk: So you reproduce with a rename alone
<amitk> lool: scratch the previous comment regarding open, I think that is because I Ctrl-C'ed out of strace. So it is waiting on /var/lib/apt/lists/lock I think
<lool> amitk: Do you have a test case to reproduce the issue?  Could we poke aufs' upstream with it?
<amitk> lool: testcase is what you guys have. kvm mid.img; apt-get update. Upstream will require more info regarding the fs layout and the union mounts though.
<lool> amitk: I thought of an upstreamable test case such as test.c doing stat64(), rename() etc.
<lool> amitk: Are you reproducing on your desktop?
<amitk> lool: kvm
<lool> Are you reproducing with 2.6.27?  :-)
<lool> ogra gets the issue on his 2.6.27 system
<lool> But as you say, the union mount args are relevant as the desktop live CD works
<ogra> apparently
<amitk> lool: yes, latest intrepid update on my desktop
<ogra> and you indeed changed my script to use aufs instead of unionfs for te merged mount 
<ogra> *the
<amitk> hmm http://www.mail-archive.com/debian-bugs-dist@lists.debian.org/msg560731.html
<ogra> wow
<ogra> you are awesome ... i surely googled for 1h yesterday and didnt find anything useful
<amitk> well the resolution was not that great. But I have a feeling upstream knowns about similar problems from before.
<ogra> he talks about an older version of aufs, is ours up to date ?
<ogra> loic said yesterday it wasnt changed at least beween hardy and intrepid
<amitk> i am just checking that
<lool> I can't download the patch from http://article.gmane.org/gmane.linux.file-systems.aufs.user/1291
<lool> http://article.gmane.org/gmane.linux.file-systems.aufs.user/1270 exactly the same bug indeed
<amitk> does anybody remember cvs commadline? :-/ I need to get pserver:anonymous@aufs.cvs.sourceforge.net:/cvsroot/aufs
<ogra> yeah
<ogra> (no for cvs though, i'm a copy paster for that)
<ogra> *sigh* ... 
 * ogra accidentially installed libgstreamer-dev with the patch ... tons of -dev libs getting installed
<lool> amitk: cvs login is probably optional
<lool> amitk: Just cvs co -d:pserver:anonymous@aufs.cvs.sourceforge.net:/cvsroot/aufs co aufs
<lool> amitk: Sorry, drop the first "co"
<lool> cvs -d :pserver:anonymous@aufs.cvs.sourceforge.net:/cvsroot/aufs co aufs
 * amitk thinks back to when he last used cvs or svn for that matter
<lool>  64 files changed, 8948 insertions(+), 3369 deletions(-)
<lool> (between intrepid's aufs and upstream's)
<amitk> there are also two versions of aufs in the cvs co
<amitk> i guess aufs25 is the devel version
<lool> amitk: Not as bad, but almost:  64 files changed, 7344 insertions(+), 2444 deletions(-)
<amitk> tim will be coming online shortly. Let me talk to him about updating. The file we care about most is i_op_ren.c
<lool> amitk: Are you trying out with tip?
<amitk> lool: yes
<amitk> lool: ogra: this looks to have been fixed upstream from the changelog.
<amitk> 20080728
<amitk> - bugfix: deadlock in rename(2), au_cp_dirs(), reported by Cyril Brulebois, Klaus Knopper and Martin Tscholak.
 * lool forgot that it's cvs annotate, not cvs blame
<ogra> amitk, yay
<amitk> lool: atleast you remember the cvs command :)
<persia> amitk: It's something we'll be able to pull for the next intrepid update?  I suspect it's that which is causing most of my failures, as just about everything I'm trying to do involves rename() at some point.
<lool> StevenK: Actual first error I get is:
<lool> cc1: warnings being treated as errors
<lool> mobile-basic-home-plugin.c: In function âlaunch_appâ:
<lool> mobile-basic-home-plugin.c:471: error: ignoring return value of âwriteâ, declared with attribute warn_unused_result
<amitk> persia: I don't see a reason that we shouldn't update to the latest CVS (barring livecds breaking). Since I didn't do the original aufs inclusion into ubuntu, I'll just ask if it is ok and then push a patch later today.
<lool> StevenK: The next one is /usr/include/libhildonwm/libhildonwm/hd-wm.h:373: error: inline function âhd_wm_reset_last_active_windowâ declared but never defined
<persia> amitk: Excellent!  Please let me know if you end up pushing it, and I'll construct a new image locally.
<persia> lool: That matches the previous results.  After that, lots more declared and not defined functions, right?
<StevenK> lool: I have a patch for mobile-basic-home-plugin.c:471.
<StevenK> lool: inline function is the one I can't solve
<lool> StevenK: That's a libhildonwm issue; it should list these functions as extern inline in the public headers
<lool> I solved it with -Wno-error
<lool> *cough*
<lool> But we should report it upstream
<lool> StevenK: Just append -Wno-error in the debian/rules cflags
<lool> Well there are none which is against policy since you should build with -O0 or -O2 dependning on debug flag
<persia> lool: It lists them as extern inline in /usr/share/libhildonwm/libhildonwm/hd-wm.h  Is that not the right place?
<lool> persia: There's a comment explaining why they do so
<lool> Basically these are getter/setter to access properties; it's just like a pointer deref, but they wrapped them in functions because of the type checking it provides
<lool> (mind you if pygobject had been doing the same I wouldn't have chased the x86-64 crasher for a full day)
<lool> It's fine when you're within libhildonwm and the function is actually reachable (inline-able)
<lool> But no app can use these functions with such headers definitions, unless it has access to a PIC version of the .a file and doesn't mind linking statically
<lool> What upstream should be doing is having some kind of "ifdef WITHIN_HILDONWM_BUILD" flag which sets these functions as extern inline in this case, but regular functions otherwise
<lool> Or they should be dropping these functions from the API completely
<Celtiore> hi
<lool> But anyway, these API discussions are not very interesting for mbf which doesn't even use these
<Celtiore> i have question
<Celtiore> i try to use moblin image creator
<lool> You don't really want to build something like mbf with -Werror
<lool> (imo)
<lool> The xulrunner 1.9 macros wont even allow this
<Celtiore> i do : load project : open file mic.tar.bz2, but whe finish i can't see the project and the target ?
<lool> StevenK: Does that unstuck you?
<lool> StevenK: I can provide the write() "fix" if you like
<lool> (which is absolutely hideous since there's no mean to bubble up the error anyway)
<StevenK> lool: I have the write fix as a patch
<StevenK> lool: $(MAKE) CLFAGS += -Wno-error
<StevenK> ?
<lool> StevenK: http://paste.ubuntu.com/43303/
<lool> StevenK: I would set the CFLAGS in debian/rules
<lool> It should pick them up it seems
<lool> mobile-basic-flash-0.44/configure.ac:CFLAGS="$CFLAGS -Wall -ansi -Wmissing-prototypes -Wmissing-declarations -Werror -std=c99 -rdynamic"
<persia> Wouldn't it be better to patch s/-Werror/-Wno-error/ rather than declaring both?
<lool> StevenK: http://paste.ubuntu.com/43308/
<lool> StevenK: configure.ac overrides your CFLAGS though; it should really be CFLAGS="blah $CFLAGS" to start with
<lool> persia: I think upstream should only use -Werror for their pre-release QA or for dev trees, not in released tarballs
<lool> persia: That said, yes it would work to patch the -Werror, but then you end up patching configure.ac and running autoconf while it's way easier to add -Wno-error at the end of the CFLAGS
<persia> lool: I agree, which is part of why I suggest a patch: it's something that legitimately belongs upstream, rather than being a packaging artifact.
<lool> You spend your time the way you like, but I wouldn't want to maintain patches I'll have to refresh on every new upstream forever :)
<lool> StevenK: Anything else I can do for you?
<persia> But we already run ./autogen in the build, so I don't see the extra cost, but it's not important enough to debate :)
<lool> I'm not sure we always do
<lool> If you build on your host once, then the autogen results will be kept in the diff; but right we run autofoo anyway
<persia> lool: But we call ./autogen.sh in the configure-stamp rule ...
<lool> Which is IMO a bad idea but heck
<persia> Yeah, it's debatable, but as long as we're doing it anyway ... :)
<lool> persia: Hmm good point, the autogen run is correctly unconditionnal here
<lool> For instance there's no autoconf bdep
<lool> Most bdeps aren't versionned
<persia> RIght.  In the conditional case, it might make more sense to hack it in debian/rules.
<lool> upstream doesn't provide any m4 files, so you need to bdep on all packages providing m4 macros in configure.ac
<lool> etc. etc.
<lool> autotools during build with such an upstream tarball is a bad idea, but then we don't even have autotoolized released tarballs
<lool> For instance there isn't any libgconf2-dev bdep but the build relies on the AM_GCONF_SOURCE_2 macro in /usr/share/aclocal/gconf-2.m4
<lool> I wish Keybuk would read this perfect example of the theory I was explaining some days ago
<persia> lool: I'm actually in the camp of people who believe we should run autofoo at build time.  More than once a simple give-back has solved issues that otherwise would have required source changes.
<persia> That said, it does rely on a well-behaved upstream, or it's just shooting oneself in the foot.
<lool> I'm in the camp who thinks it's too complex for people to get right
<persia> lool: And I suspect we can both find lots of examples.  In the meantime, I suspect we'd do best to review each package separately, depending on how well upstream did their work, we can do it my way or your way.
<lool> Meeting in #ubuntu-meeting in 9 mns
<Celtiore> hi persia i have one question please
<Celtiore> for aigo mid p8860 we need to modify the install.cfg and install.sh , if we want to install correctly UME
<lool> Meeting in #ubuntu-meeting
<lool> amitk: I git-cvspimpported http://people.ubuntu.com/~lool/git/aufs.git/
<lool> amitk: 4350c42ec737e187a710e38a4b20dcbe840fe4c4 is more recent than the claimed date of fix, but interesting
<amitk> lool: yeah. it looks like we are going to get the latest aufs into intrepid
<lool> the 25 one?
<lool> amitk: It would be nice to import aufs with history into the ubuntu tree if you ask me  :-)
<davidm> amitk, can you join us in #ubuntu-meeting?  I'd like to get the status of the  aufs bug into the record
<amitk> lool: yes the 25 one
<amitk> that is the one that is supported for kernels 2.6.25+
<Celtiore> where can i find the last version of idctouch drivers for aigomid p8860 ?
<persia> Celtiore: That's a tricky question.  I think you're the only aigomid user who's usually here.  Google might help.
<Celtiore> thanks you
<persia> Also, you were asking earlier about MIC: if you need to modify install.cfg and install.sh, you can do that once you've created your target, but before you build your image.
<persia> (I think)
<persia> If that doesn't work, you'll need to grab the MIC source and hack it, or loopmount the result image, and modify it.
<Celtiore> about desktop background, with last img , we can easily change it :)
<persia> Celtiore: I've not tried on the intrepid dailies, but it's easy on the 8.04.1 image.
<Celtiore> yes i try the 8.04.1
<Celtiore> but no network, no touchscreen :(
<persia> Oh.  Hrm.  That's incredibly annoying.
<persia> ian_brasil suggested you could import background images to 7.10, but I don't know how.
<persia> Let me check the desktop background tool in the dailes quickly: it might be OK, but I know there are a couple bugs that cause the dailes to crash, so they certainly aren't recommended for real use.
<Celtiore> ok
<Celtiore> but i have a lot of pictures with the desktop manager background
<persia> Celtiore: Actually, there seems to be a bug in the dailes that prevents the changing of the desktop background.
<persia> I've no good advice for you today.  Sorry :)
<Celtiore> np persia 
<lool> ogra: Hey!  Don't know how busy you are: did you send out a list of packages relevant for the mobile seed only?  I still need to do this for mid, and wondered how you compiled yours
<smp4488> anyone around?
#ubuntu-mobile 2008-09-05
<smp4488> what gps software are you all planning on using?
<smp4488>  so i was messing with ubuntu-mobile now my gnome theme has huge font and all the windows 
<smp4488> got it just removed everything moblin, matchbox, and ubuntu-mobile, restarted x and it was all good
<ogra> lool, i must admit i didnt compile that list yet
<lool> amitk: Sorry, missed you earlier message; I think we could go for unionfs
<lool> amitk: Anyway it's clear we're moving from 2.6.26 to 2.6.27
<lool> amitk: Feel free to do the aufs fixes in ubuntu-intrepid first and to pull them in linux-lpia
<lool> StevenK: Do you think you could append union=unionfs to the isolinux.cfg kernel cmdline?
<amitk> lool: ok. Then I should have an upload for lpia today.
<lool> amitk: Will you need sponsoring?
<amitk> lool: yeah. I'll ping you if kernel team isn't online by then.
<amitk> lool: StevenK: who are these image meant for? I need to port the Poulsbo driver into intrepid too. Mike was supposed to do this so that both DRM stacks would co-exist simultaneously.
<lool> amitk: Wow, you think you could port psb to intrepid?
<StevenK> amitk: Please tell me when you've uploaded the kernel and I'll poke -archive to look at it
<amitk> StevenK: I have successfully compiled it locally (rebased on 2.6.27). It still lacks psb and aufs. If this is already useful, I can upload it now.
<StevenK> lool: ^
<StevenK> lool!!
<amitk> lol @ lool
<lool> amitk: It's useful!
<lool> StevenK: StevenK!!
<lool> Hmm no that doesn't work
<StevenK> lool: Heh
<StevenK> lool: If you think what amitk said was okay, let's get him to upload
<amitk> StevenK: I'll do it in 30 minutes, hungry now :)
<lool> StevenK: I understand you had a startx race in the images
<lool> StevenK: Did you understand what happens with the first session?  does it crash?
<lool> StevenK: One thing I refrained doing is using the openvt -e flag because I didn't know whether upstart would track childs
<lool> StevenK: On another topic, you mentionned you would lose your changes upon reboot; you can keep them by creating an ext3 image along the ubuntu-mid.img and labelling it casper-rw
<lool> I see you fixed that by using -w; it might be nicer to use -e, but -w is fine
<lool> amitk: Not sure whether you noticed, but with up to date hardy kernels, network doesn't come up on boot with CB
<lool> amitk: I have to unplug the USB <-> Ethernet adapter and then it works
<persia> lool: I'm to blame for -w.  I don't see -e in the manpage for openvt.  What does it do?
<amitk> lool: udev problem?
<lool> ogra: So scratch that lid switch thing, but the power button properly triggers a resume here
<lool> amitk: Could be, but I rather suspect the changes in the builtin versus modular in the kernel config
<lool> amitk: I'm not knowledgeable enough to tell what goes wrong, but these are the changes I woudl suspect
<lool> persia: what pkg provides openvt on your sys?
<lool> kbd: /bin/openvt
<lool>        -e     Directly execute  the  given  command,  without  forking.   This
<lool>               option is meant for use in /etc/inittab.
<ogra> lool, ok, then its because i use the wrong image on it 
<lool> => it causes an exec() instead of fork+exec
<amitk> lool: I'll look into it sometime next week after the current task list runs out
<lool> ogra: Could be because of your BIOS too
<ogra> (was trying with the cmpc image to get the USB suspend/resume patch)
<lool> amitk: No hurry really, but thought you might want to know
<lool> amitk: it's hardy stuff
<persia> lool: Right.  I'm reading manpages on a hardy install.  -e is much better.
 * persia fixes
<lool> I actually wanted to use it and it would have prevented upstart from relaunching, but I wanted to try it first and forgot
<persia> No worries: it just looked like an obvious race, as the session was respawning wildly.  -w just something to make it shut up.
<lool> persia: I wonder whether console-tools' openvt provides -e, and what versions to require for kbd to get -e
<persia> lool: console-tools doesn't provide -e
<persia> Shall we just leave it with -w for now, or do you want a hard dependency on kdb?
<lool> persia: I don't care strongly; openvt's size doesn't make a big difference, so it probably makes sense to not take away the possibility to use console-tools
<persia> OK.  I'll not make any changes then.
<lool> Urgh http://arstechnica.com/journals/linux.media/alparc.png
<persia> lool: Just remember: software system block diagrams for frameworks are drawn by people who don't write software.
<lool> from http://arstechnica.com/reviews/os/access-linux-hands-on.ars which is otherwise quite interesting
<landley_> davidm: sorry chromium turned out to be so pointless.
<landley_> I didn't know they were stupid enough to write it in C++.  No wonder it requires 300 megs to boot.
<landley_> (Why would anyone do a _new_ browser in C++?  Konqueror/Safari exists.)
<landley_> Thought they were doing it in C, since they _mentioned_ android in the design explanation and everything.
<landley_> Some _vague_ embedded interest.  Oh well.
<landley> davidm: nevermind, I figured it out.  Webkit is Apple's safari engine, which is a fork of konqueror.
<landley> So the answer to "why would anyone do a new browser in c++ when konqueror/safari exists" is "they didn't".
<landley> Still disappointed it's in C++.  Still disappointed that Stu reports the prototype ate 300 megs of ram when he tested it.
<landley> But at least now I know why.
#ubuntu-mobile 2008-09-06
<yannick> lool, why are you searching SIP provider with video? SIP communication are usually direct peer to peer...
<lool> yannick: Uh right, what was I thinking
<lool> yannick: Because SIP providers often provide PSTN support, they advertize list of codecs, so I was searching for video codecs, but it doesn't make sense
<yannick> lool, i don't know much for PSTN bridges, maybe with the new video phone this could be possible, still it is probably much cheaper to use pc to pc if you want video conference...
<lool> yannick: I really cared for PC to PC, but for some reason also checked PSTN support and that made me think the wrong way
<lool> It's now clear to me that the SDP isn't filtered in anyway, the SIP commands just flow advertizing video support and RTP goes directly between users
<yannick> lool, what i know is one of our dev use this hardware : http://www.grandstream.com/gxv3000.html with ekiga. Ekiga should also work well for voice-to-voice with cell phones (using a commercial provider)
<lool> yannick: And are there providers providing video phone calls with 3G phones?
<yannick> lool, yes the RTP flow goes usualy directly between users, but the standard offer alos poxying...
<yannick> proxying*
<yannick> lool, i don't know for the 3g phones...
<lool> amitk: Hey, i guess you didn't find sponsoring in the kernel team for linux-lpia yet; if you have one with unionfs, I'm happy to upload it :)
#ubuntu-mobile 2008-09-07
<Celtiore> hi
<Celtiore> i have one question
<Celtiore> what is the difference between menlow_full_install-usb.img moblin and mobile image ?
#ubuntu-mobile 2009-08-31
<davmor2> Morning guys quick issue that I noticed over the weekend.  In ubuntu they have added telepathy-idle in order to get an irc client back into ubuntu.  However unr doesn't seem to of done this is there a reason for this?
<StevenK> davmor2: Because I failed to notice
<davmor2> StevenK: Ah okay then :)
<davmor2> StevenK: I reported it here https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/421418 I hope I filed against the right meta-package for the seed  to pull it in :)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 421418 in ubuntu-netbook-remix-default-settings "Unr needs to include telepathy-idle for irc chat " [Undecided,New]
<StevenK> No, 'unr-meta'
<StevenK> I'm running germinate nowish
 * StevenK tries to pick up the eggs he dropped
<davmor2> damn I was close I ummed and ahhed
<daveh> Sup troops...... where can I grab the images and source? URL on website is dead.
<ogra> for what exactly ? 
<daveh> ubuntu MID
<ogra> hmm, no idea there are any images for the karmic version
<ogra> http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/ should have all we did 
<daveh> ok cool, how do I try it out?
<daveh> Thanks
<ogra> you need a MID device...  http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/mobile/releases/ should actually be the last MID images we did
<ogra> (they are very old, there is a new MID initiative in the community but i dont know if they ever built images)
#ubuntu-mobile 2009-09-01
<davmor2> guys with the inclusion of fusa there now seem to be 2 places to shutdown the netbook is this going to alter or do I need to bug it?
<ian_brasil> davmor2, it is also confusing the big red shutdown button going to a log out option
<ian_brasil> IMO that is a UI bug
<davmor2> ian_brasil: well yes that to but if it is being gotten rid of I didn't want to bring that up :)
 * ian_brasil squashes the big red button
<lovebug356> Hello all,
<lovebug356> I'm getting an error: Unsupported distribution: distribution.Ubuntu when starting up image-creator
<lool> lovebug356: Hey
<lool> lovebug356: We dont really use MIC anymore
<lool> lovebug356: Which base are you trying to work on?
<lovebug356> lool, ok, I'm trying to create a build environment
<lovebug356> on my main machine
<ian_brasil> lovebug356, use virtualbox..it is much simpler 
<ian_brasil> then just ssh into it
#ubuntu-mobile 2009-09-02
<cingall> who would I talk to regarding ubuntu mid?
#ubuntu-mobile 2009-09-04
<DWonderly> Anyone Active?
<davmor2> Hey guys you know you switch off tapping on the trackpad.  How does that effect the dell mini 10's where it loses the buttons?
<lool> davidbarth: poke
<lool> davidbarth: I updated the mobile team status for release meeting; do you have anything you'd like to highlight for DX stuff?
* lool changed the topic of #ubuntu-mobile to: http://qa.ubuntu.com/reports/ogasawara/weatherreport.html | https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileTeam/FAQ
<lool> we have a new moblin remix ISO for testing
<derekS> lool: is moblin something that is going to be kept up?
<derekS> or is it a one off that isn't something that we should look at running as a primary os
<davidbarth> lool: i'm updating the report, but nothing particular on UNR, except more bug fixes; the xsplash integration is still pending; no upload on Friday (neil taking a day off) but on Monday
<lool> davidbarth: Ok thanks
<davidbarth> lool: i've updated https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopExperienceTeam/KarmicReleaseStatus; no major changes except bugfixes this week
<lool> Thanks
<DWonderly> Anyone Active in here?
