#ubuntu-uds-appdev-1 2013-11-19
* ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-uds-appdev-1 to: Currently no events are active in this room - http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-1311/appdev-1/ - http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2013/11/19/%23ubuntu-uds-appdev-1.html
* ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-uds-appdev-1 to: Track: App Development | App Developer Roundtable Tues | Url: http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-1311/meeting/22019/app-developer-roundtable-tues/
 * nik90 waves to WebbyIT and iBelieve 
<mhall119> hey guys, getting the hangout setup
<WebbyIT> I'll follow first 20-30 minutes, then I'll go to climb in gym :) nik90
<mhall119> https://plus.google.com/hangouts/_/72cpj2uc96vkt3ohsetlufqpkc?authuser=1&hl=en if anybody wants to join the hangout
<nik90> WebbyIT: ah okay
<nik90> can you guys see the hangout vide?
<nik90> video*
<JoshStrobl> I can see you guys now
<WebbyIT> yeah
<netcurli> I can see you, mhall119
<JoshStrobl> @mhall119
<t1mp> I see you
<nik90> feel free to join in
<nik90> https://plus.google.com/hangouts/_/72cpj2uc96vkt3ohsetlufqpkc?authuser=1&hl=en
<JoshStrobl> oh man there is lag :D
<lucaotta> we see you
<t1mp> mhall119: you look spooky (a bit dark and the light from one side)
<mhall119> any questions from you guys here?
<dbarth> there's also a qtcreator part adressed in the html5 session, to simplify the path to creating html5 apps
<mhall119> dbarth: want to join the hangout?
<guest-8g62ff> I realise that qml is the focus for the phone and for use in the converged os - are there any plans to allow (even if it's not the recommended way) for python + gtk apps on the phone and the converged os, or not really?
 * beuno answers and waits for the video to reach guest-8g62ff 
<mhall119> nik90: http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-1311/meeting/21991/core-1311-cross-compilation/
<rickspencer3> mhall119, aren't I supposed to be able to hop into the hangouts from a button?
<mhall119> rickspencer3: supposed do, did you refresh the page?
<rickspencer3> yeah
<beuno> rickspencer3, https://plus.google.com/hangouts/_/72cpj2uc96vkt3ohsetlufqpkc?authuser=1&hl=en
<rickspencer3> mhall119, where is the button supposed to be?
<mhall119> rickspencer3: above the video
<t1mp> rickspencer3: tracking for one month is not enough. You need to take different things into account (like the position of the moon ;))
<rickspencer3> t1mp, yeah, well ...
<rickspencer3> er
<rickspencer3> yeah
<rickspencer3> I wasn't going to go there, though
<asomething> the review tools should just run when you build the package and issue warnings
<XlrTwoDmx> Hello there I am new to all this.  But a co-worker of mine told me about this. I am thinking about making a screen casting tool.  but am kinda lost.  Is there any command line tool that don't need X to screencast ?  thanks for your time .  (like ffmpeg or something like that)
<asomething> like when you hook lintian to debuild
<mhall119> XlrTwoDmx: are you talking about doing this as a desktop app or a mobile app?
<XlrTwoDmx> mhall119: both using the sdk
<XlrTwoDmx> mhall119: confused about the mir part.
<mhall119> XlrTwoDmx: I'll answer in the video in one minute
<XlrTwoDmx> thanks mhall119
<mhall119> XlrTwoDmx: tvoss in #ubuntu-mir, as rickspencer3 suggested
<XlrTwoDmx> so ffmpeg is out of the question ? thanks for the answers all
<beuno> XlrTwoDmx, well, you can install ffmpeg manually
<mhall119> XlrTwoDmx: I think so yes, but tvoss would know more
<beuno> with sudo
<beuno> but that'll be developer mode
<beuno> which may be fine for your use case
<XlrTwoDmx> rickspencer3: who said I am a "He"
<XlrTwoDmx> :P
<mhall119> XlrTwoDmx: it used to be proper English grammer to default to masculine pronouns when the actual gender of a person was unknown
<mhall119> at least that's what I was taught
<mhall119> but, like two-spaces after a period, that seems to be out of favor these days
<kyleN> this should have a short explanatory article on dev.u.com probably with example app(s)
<mhall119> kyleN: the u1db stuff?
<kyleN> yes, app local storage (not html localStorage)
<kyleN> yes
<kyleN>  of course.
<kyleN> :)
<kyleN> mhall119, you know that I believe the IA needs to support add hoc articles in a domain scope
<kenvandine> mhall119, 2 spaces after a period is a waste of white space :)
<kyleN> there are lots of such topics that deserve short articles
<mhall119> kenvandine: I know we have a national shortage of white space
<kenvandine> :)
<nik90> mhall119: http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~uonedb-qt/u1db-qt/trunk/files/head:/examples/u1db-qt-example-1/
<kenvandine> kyleN, something like the blog post from rickspencer3 yesterday, it would be great to have something like that on the site
<kenvandine> mhall119, ^^
<mhall119> kenvandine: that what we were talking about
<kyleN> the same issue exists in html. the api docs I wrote show the normative declarations for each type, but we also need discussions and exampels
<kenvandine> not just docs on how to use it, but showing the alternatives and which work best for which scenario
<kyleN> kenvandine, can you give the link to that awesome blogpost? ;)
<kenvandine> sorry, i jumped in late :)
<kenvandine> http://discourse.ubuntu.com/t/how-to-use-local-data-in-ubuntu-qml-apps/1194
<mhall119> any final questions from the channel?
<mhall119> thanks everyone
<XlrTwoDmx> Is there any way to install the emulator that you are talking about before ?
<kyleN> cheers
* ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-uds-appdev-1 to: Track: App Development | Improving the content of App Developer Cookbooks | Url: http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-1311/meeting/22023/appdev-1311-better-cookbooks/
<mhall119> will be a minute, helping someone with another session
<mhall119> https://plus.google.com/hangouts/_/76cpij41os211f64am6rv0lf34?authuser=1&hl=en for anybody who wants to join the hangout
<mhall119> asomething: joining this one?
 * sidnei waves to Chipaca over the interwebs
<Chipaca> blueprint https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/appdev-1311-push-notifications
<asomething> mhall119, sure
<Chipaca> agh
<mhall119> Chipaca: #ubuntu-uds-appdev-2
<mhall119> http://developer.ubuntu.com/apps/qml/cookbook/
<mhall119> http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~mhall119/ubuntudeveloperportal/askubuntu-scripts/files
<kyleN> nice work so far!
<kyleN> is there a defined set of tags so people know how to use them to get stuff into a cookbook?
<kyleN> Maybe we need a community role of "cookbook moderator"
<kyleN> If there were a "cookbook moderator" for each major topic (html5 qml etc) and
<kyleN> if we had a published list of tags taht cookbook moderators look at
<mhall119> kyleN: https://plus.google.com/hangouts/_/76cpij41os211f64am6rv0lf34?authuser=1&hl=en if you want to join
<kyleN> joinging
<mhall119> http://developer.ubuntu.com/apps/qml/cookbook/
<mhall119> http://developer.ubuntu.com/apps/html-5/cookbook/
<asomething> http://askubuntu.com/questions/tagged/qml+application-development
<dbarth> kyleN: +1 feels like editing the content means both the static content on u.d.c but askubuntu is also a very important of it
<dbarth> part of it
<dbarth> or maybe this is an email process to someone who has the rights to the scripts to get started
<dbarth> instead of coding that on the web server
<dbarth> mhall119: ^^
<dbarth> cause the number of "privileged editing on askubuntu" may not require a full blown tool like that
<mhall119> http://pad.ubuntu.com/uds-1311-appdev-1311-better-cookbooks
<dbarth> mhall119: ok
<dbarth> sounds good
<dbarth> (measuring the lag)
<dbarth> mhall119: it does yes, thanks
<dbarth> oh i'm there sure, maybe we can do a quick recap in the html5 session later today
<dbarth> as documentation (and so the cookbook) is one of the topics
<mhall119> ok
* ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-uds-appdev-1 to: Currently no events are active in this room - http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-1311/appdev-1/ - http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2013/11/19/%23ubuntu-uds-appdev-1.html
* ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-uds-appdev-1 to: Track: App Development | Expanding the API Website | Url: http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-1311/meeting/22025/appdev-1311-expanding-api-website/
<mhall119> if anybody wants to join the hangout for this session: https://plus.google.com/hangouts/_/7ecpikvngov5scpk9s1ofsuqbk?authuser=1&hl=en
<mhall119> it's not live yet, but will be in a couple minutes
<mhall119> kyleN: you want to join this one too?
<kyleN> mhall119, sure
<cgoldberg> mhall119, got hanggout link?
<mhall119> https://plus.google.com/hangouts/_/7ecpikvngov5scpk9s1ofsuqbk?authuser=1&hl=en
<mhall119> going live now
<mhall119> let me know when folks cna see us
<mhall119> http://pad.ubuntu.com/uds-1311-appdev-1311-expanding-api-website
<daker> mhall119: you are muted
<kyleN> Hi daker
<daker> kyleN: hi
<daker> mhall119: YOU ARE MUTED!
<daker> kyleN: nice!
<mhall119> http://developer.ubuntu.com/api/qml/sdk-1.0/
<cgoldberg> mhall119, this is what I have: http://unity.ubuntu.com/autopilot/
 * dbarth waves ;)
<daker> mhall119: sure
<mhall119> thanks daker
<daker> o/
<dbarth> hey mhall119, can you hook us up for the next one?
<dbarth> daker: hey btw, you coming onto the hangout as well?
* ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-uds-appdev-1 to: Track: App Development | SDK for HTML5 app deverlopers | Url: http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-1311/meeting/22073/appdev-1311-html5-sdk/
<mhall119> dbarth: sure
<alex-abreu> dbarth, daker told me that he was not able to attend ... only on irc
<mhall119> dbarth: alex-abreu: kyleN: https://plus.google.com/hangouts/_/76cpjqbpmh3t1omhiu0ugtuh0o?authuser=1&hl=en
<karni> hi alex-abreu :) looking forward to this session!
<alex-abreu> karni, hop in!
<mhall119> hangout link is above ^^
<mhall119> slides: https://docs.google.com/a/canonical.com/presentation/d/1Pq1q-vl0t-mcy-hFhl_c5GK-R_aV75kKA6OCW_AjDcA/edit#slide=id.p
<karni> let's get this echo sorted :)
<karni> let's not continue before its fixed :)
<karni> you have the session browser in the browser
<karni> please mute yourselves
<karni> and make sure the session is closed
<karni> in your browser
<karni> That was my fault, sorry
<karni> *I* had it open. I apologize guys.
<robruds_> dbarth: mhall119: the slides are just small, not taking the whole video
<karni> Sorry David :)
<mhall119> robruds_: better?
<robruds_> mhall119: perfect ;-)
<mhall119> if anybody in the channel has questions or comments on these slides, go ahead and start asking
<karni> qtcreator-plugin-ubuntu
<pmcgowan> +1 on that suggestion, single template
<popey> someone is echoing.
<karni> yes, minor echo
<pmcgowan> kyleN, need to mute
<popey> dpm: mute kyleN â»
<dpm> popey, thanks for the heads up, alex-abreu took care of it :)
<alex-abreu> :)
<pmcgowan> yes qtc work is not hard
<pmcgowan> dbarth, -1 on that, need to discuss
<pmcgowan> dbarth, I thought cordova was moving away from that?
<pmcgowan> alex-abreu, ^^
<karni> pmcgowan: +1, rased that in the notes
<karni> hrm
<dbarth> pmcgowan: you feel we should keep 2.8 or ship 3.x in the next image?
<pmcgowan> dbarth, not sure, whichever most apps are based on?
<alex-abreu> pmcgowan, many apps are still 2.x
<pmcgowan> I suspect yes
<alex-abreu> and between 2.8 & 3.x the API level doesn't change much
* ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-uds-appdev-1 to: Currently no events are active in this room - http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-1311/appdev-1/ - http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2013/11/19/%23ubuntu-uds-appdev-1.html
<karni> alex-abreu: I don't fully understand the choice to bundle the cordova API. This is because 3.x point releases will be specific? Not compatible? I mean, this will increase the app side, right?
<karni> I thought it was an advantage that our platform provided a single runtime
<dbarth> pmcgowan: 2.8/9 i think
<alex-abreu> karni, it is ...
<alex-abreu> karni, the trick is that for 3.x ... and in oreder for ubuntu to be part of the upstream official platforms w/ the set of tools (and that
<alex-abreu> 's the bit that has changed significantly)
<alex-abreu> we have to match their flow
<karni> alex-abreu: ah, so it's an upstream matter really
<karni> alex-abreu: gotcha, thanks
<alex-abreu> e.g. the way that they handle plugins
<alex-abreu> has changed signiticantly
<alex-abreu> in terms iof workflow
<alex-abreu> they are now independant
<alex-abreu> and pulled from git repos
<karni> alex-abreu: I see, thanks for the clarification!
<alex-abreu> on demand
<alex-abreu> n
 * karni nod
<alex-abreu> p
<daker> dbarth: yep
<dbarth> cool
<dbarth> well,that was a good session
<daker> thank you
<dbarth> see you all tomorrow
<karni> thank you all
#ubuntu-uds-appdev-1 2013-11-20
* ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-uds-appdev-1 to: Currently no events are active in this room - http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-1311/appdev-1/ - http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2013/11/20/%23ubuntu-uds-appdev-1.html
* ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-uds-appdev-1 to: Track: App Development | App Developer Roundtable Wed | Url: http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-1311/meeting/22020/app-developer-roundtable-wed/
<mhall119> hangout URL for those who want to join: https://plus.google.com/hangouts/_/76cpiab56q9hmau0kfu5chhrg8?authuser=1&hl=en
<madness_dev> hi guys
<madness_dev> where I can watch the  App Developer Roundtable Wed
<mhall119> madness_dev: starting it now
<mhall119> can you guys see us yet?
<rickspencer3> o/
<madness_dev> I hear you but can not see
<beuno> can see you
<vthompson> I don't think they have the apparmor isolation in the emulator yet though.
<aquarius> hey, dudes
<aquarius> I am planning to attend as many sessions as I can today :)
<mhall119> any questions or things people in the channel want to discuss?
<aquarius> sorry I wasn't around yesterday -- I was on a plane!
<madness_dev1> i have a question but but not on the subject
 * aquarius reviews the HTML5 session notes from yesterday :)
<madness_dev1> michael u know my problem
<madness_dev1> nice cat)
<ahayzen> vthompson, o/
<madness_dev1> yup
<aquarius> having Oxide as the container for HTML5 is good. Are there plans to ensure that the "Ubuntu Browser" is (a) Oxide-based and (b) is documented on popular sites? Look at, say, MDN:  randomly chosen page is https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/API/Screen.lockOrientation and it has browser support for that feature listed down the bottom. Is someone going to be looking at getting the Ubuntu Browser into
<aquarius> that list, into caniuse.com, etc?
<vthompson> ahayzen, yo
<mhall119> http://askubuntu.com/questions/ask?tags=application-development
<madness_dev1> i will try, thanks
<aquarius> It's possible to say "Oxide is just Chromium", but then you have to promise that it'll track a chromium version exactly -- you're not allowed to, say, disable webgl, or webrtc, etc :)
<madness_dev1> i have one more question
<ahayzen> vthompson, i'm in a lecture so will likely be in the IRC channel for the mediascanner session
<madness_dev1> how do u test your ubuntu touch apps?
<vthompson> ahayzen, sounds good. We'll make sure to give any work items to Daniel then. :P
<ahayzen> vthompson, i need to talk to u about some Grilo stuff, will u be around ~1700UTC?
<anatoli> is the cat also an app dev?
<aquarius> I'm not really asking a technical question about Oxide so much as an evangelism/community question about it ;)
<popey> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Touch/Testing
<popey> madness_dev1: ^^
<popey> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Touch/Testing/Autopilot also
<vthompson> ahayzen, I should be.
<aquarius> This is really about making "Ubuntu Browser" be a recognised web browser, along the same lines as the Android browser, Chrome for Android, iOS Safari, etc. "It is WebKit" isn't enough; all of those are webkit too, and there are big differences between them :)
<madness_dev1> but i have not device
<beuno> aquarius, yes, we're working on that
<beuno> with dbarth and other FE developers
<beuno> adding it into popular js and css libraries, etc
<aquarius> beuno, cool. It is a lot of work -- this is what happens when we have our own browser rather than someone else's -- and that work doesn't seem to have started, which is why I keep asking about it :)
<ahayzen> vthompson, awesome, wanna try and land my performance improvements soon :)
<beuno> aquarius, indeed
<vthompson> ahayzen, we might not want to try to implement too many improvements to how we handle the Grilo model--the outcome of the session in the next 30 minutes might result in Grilo going away...
<popey> ahayzen: vthompson will you guys be around for the next session in appdev-2 ?
<popey> http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-1311/meeting/22067/appdev-1311-coreapps-saucy-review/
<mhall119> https://plus.google.com/hangouts/_/76cpiab56q9hmau0kfu5chhrg8?authuser=1&hl=en
<aquarius> beuno, you may find http://developer.nokia.com/Resources/Library/Web/#!nokia-browsers/nokia-browser-85-for-meego-12-harmattan.html instructive -- I mean, that's just nokia on a browser which is discontinued, and they provided loads of docs on which media queries it supports, etc.
<ahayzen> popey, I'll be listening in and in the IRC channel, i'm in a lecture at the moment :)
<popey> ah okay
<vthompson> popey, I had planned on being in the mediascanner convo
<madness_dev1> how can I  run and test app without device?
<beuno> aquarius, nice one, thanks
<popey> if you can type feedback into the etherpad that would be awesome
<ahayzen> popey, oh yh and we have the mediascanner one at the same time
<popey> thanks
<popey> http://pad.ubuntu.com/uds-1311-appdev-1311-coreapps-saucy-review
<popey> â»
<aquarius> popey, I didn't do that because my comments are really about the HTML5 session yesterday, whichI was not in ;)
<popey> feel free to type at that anytime
<vthompson> mhall119, the mediascanner people might want to remove the dependency upon it. That is the topic to be discussed in 20 minutes in client-2
<aquarius> QUESTION: is the Cordova work going on inside Canonical now roughly complete, or is there more still to go? Specifically, are common Cordova plugins also going to get ported, to make it easier to use them in cross-platform Cordova apps?
<aquarius> (sorry for having questions about a session from yesterday :))
<madness_dev1> but if i want to send system notification from my app to system notification tray how can i do this?
<madness_dev1> i mean if i test app on desktop
<vthompson> mhall119, here's the blueprint for the mediascanner/grilo discussion: https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/client-1311-mediascanner-roadmap
<aquarius> QUESTION: are you guys talking to cordova about making build.phonegap.com able to generate Ubuntu click packages as well as packages for other platforms?
<madness_dev1> thanks)
<aquarius> schaweet! if build.phonegap makes click packages I shall be One Happy Bunny
<aquarius> otherwise I'd have to write a client-side javascript ting to do it ;)
<aquarius> QUESTION: the push notifications session from yesterday doesn't seem to have any etherpad notes? I can just review the video, but notes would be nice :)
<aquarius> fair play -- I'll watch the video :)
<aquarius> nah, if it's deep tech discussion then the video's better
 * aquarius laughs. Technically no it wasn't a question :)
<mhall119> having the video certainly is nice
 * anatoli doesn't see the etherpad on the right at all
<popey> there's a link to it underneath
<popey> to "open in new window"
<mhall119> anatoli: go to pad.ubuntu.com and login first, it doesn't like trying to log you in from the iframe
<anatoli> that was it! now I see it after reloading
<anatoli> thanks
<popey> \o/
<anatoli> we are live
<mhall119> anatoli: the roundtable just ended
<aquarius> later, peeps
<ahayzen> thanks guys
<anatoli> mhall119:hm weird I guess I'm seeing the start of it then? confusingly it says it's "live" so I thought it was the next session starting early
<anatoli> anothe re-load and the "live" is fixed. maybe one day somebody can make the transition between sessions less broken
<anatoli> suppose it might be youtube to blame
<mhall119> anatoli: http://launchpad.net/summit we could definitely use more developers to improve it :)
 * anatoli whistles
* ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-uds-appdev-1 to: Track: App Development | Improving our App Developer Story | Url: http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-1311/meeting/22024/appdev-1311-developer-story/
<mhall119> Hangout URL: https://plus.google.com/hangouts/_/72cpitpvk1f8gi67n41r5dqrl0?authuser=1&hl=en
 * karni awaits stream
<aquarius> summit page is hanging after showing the header :(
<mhall119> I've updated the links in summit, you might need to refresh
<karni> mhall119: are you live yet?
<aquarius> aha, page is up, with youtube video placeholder image showing
 * anatoli doesn't see video yet
<karni> aquarius: anatoli: same yere
<karni> *here
<mzanetti> +1
<karni> yere, I'm a pirrrrate
<mhall119> hang on, wrong session
<aquarius> aha, stream!
<mhall119> how about now?
<aquarius> hey mhall
<anatoli> works
<karni> mhall119: good
<mhall119> https://plus.google.com/hangouts/_/72cpitpvk1f8gi67n41r5dqrl0?authuser=1&hl=en
<anatoli> yep
<aquarius> mhall119, on the stream you've just said "I'm on the wrong one" ;)
<anatoli> somebody get the phone!
<aquarius> we can see you now :)
<mzanetti> yes
<dobey> sweet, so i didn't actually miss anything yet
<karni> dobey: correct
<aquarius> QUESTION: when you talk about "HTML5" having access to the content hub and so on, you mean "HTML5 in a native app", right? Not "a webpage which can do Unity integration"?
<aquarius> I can join if you want, but I have a whole bunch of questions to ask :)
<jonobacon> aquarius: I think you should join
<jonobacon> would be handy
<jonobacon> I would join but I am feeding Jack right now
<dobey> QUESTION: If I'm building a Qt library for app develpors to use from C++, what is the standard way to provide build system integration that will work with cmake and qmake both? In gtk+/glib libraries for example, the standard is to provide pkg-config data, but Qt apps tend to rely on a couple other means for providing that data.
<mzanetti> dobey: you can use pkg-config
<mzanetti> or cmake native things (like find_something())
<dobey> mzanetti: is that preferred/standard though?
<karni> aquarius: good to see you :D
<dobey> i don't want to have to do 10 different things. but i'm happy to just do pkg-config if that's the standard/accepted/preferred way
<mzanetti> dobey: the problem is actually the "bring your own dependencies"
<mzanetti> dobey: so all that stuff won't really work
<karni> did you get muted aquarius ?
<dobey> mzanetti: well, presume it's a library that's in the core image :)
<mzanetti> dobey: ok. yes. in that case use cmake's find_something or, if that's not there, pkcconfig
<dobey> mzanetti: well, there's also qt-in-cmake stuff that isn't exactly find_something, but is qt_use_module or something like that
<mzanetti> dobey: ah, yeah. that's qt's internal stuff. in qmake just use "QT += module1 module3 ..."
<dobey> right, there's qt internal stuff in qmake, then there's sa qt-in-cmake thing, then there's findWhatEver in cmake, then there's pkgconfig
<jonobacon> aquarius: turn your mic up
<aquarius> jonobacon, will try
<mzanetti> dobey: yeah... well... in cmake the Qt internal's are included with the find_package(). and that is the preferred thing for everything. however, when that's not there, you can still use pkgconfig
<jonobacon> I dont think we should use "cordova" as a term
<jonobacon> it is an implementation detail of how we access sensors
<karni> aquarius: 'PhoneGap' is a child name for 'Cordova'
<karni> jonobacon: +1
<jonobacon> they are "HTML5 apps"
 * karni agrees
<dobey> mzanetti: well, you need to do something like find_package(Qt5Core REQUIRED) first, then you can do qt5_use_modules(DBus Xml Network) for example
<dobey> mzanetti: which is a little different than pure find_package
<jonobacon> aquarius: no they are not
<mzanetti> dobey: true. although I don't understand the problem
<jonobacon> most people don't know what cordova is
<jonobacon> most people know HTML5, not cordova
<jonobacon> the way I see it, we have:
<jonobacon> * QML Native
<jonobacon> * HTML5 Apps
<jonobacon> * Web Integration
<jonobacon> * Scopes
<jonobacon> in any case, I am not sure this is the most important problem to solve ;-)
<dobey> mzanetti: i want to know what the standard/preferred way to do things is, and do that; rather than just doing everything for everyone, because i don't want to do 10 different things. i want to do one, and have it be easy to use
<mzanetti> dobey: afaik cmake is the preferred thing. and in there you gotta use what is available.
<jonobacon> I agree it is confusing, but I think we just need to pick terms and stick to them
<jonobacon> damn you both
<jonobacon> :-)
<mzanetti> I think it's quite obvious that qtcreator is supposed to do that but just not there yet
<mzanetti> aquarius: ^
<dobey> mzanetti: then can we just declare somewhere that libraries written in qt on ubuntu that are meant to be used by people writing apps for ubuntu, should use pkg-config?
<mhall119> dobey: if that is the case then yes
<dobey> well let's make it the case :)
<mzanetti> I think our biggest problem is that we want to support HTML, Qt, Go, Python and whatnot
<dobey> well i don't care about html go python and whatnot
<dobey> i care about qt/qml right now
<mzanetti> dobey: that was in reponse to the video stream
<dobey> oh
<jonobacon> mhall119: totally agree
<jonobacon> we only trade on production features
<jonobacon> we need a distutils-extra type script that generates a manifest
<anatoli> "is it a bug or not" is something to find out on eg. askubuntu.com or irc , isn't it - and possibly file a bug about lack of docs or weird behavior
<anatoli> doesn't seem to me like a new problem
<anatoli> you get the same with Qt
 * mzanetti doesn't agree
<mzanetti> I agree that the message should be "its not there yet" but not "go away"
<jonobacon> aquarius: I am not sure I agree - we often tell people if something is ready yet
<jonobacon> for example, location
<jonobacon> but I agr
<jonobacon> but I agree with the point of providing clarity about what is in and what isnt
<jonobacon> maybe a page on d.u.c could help here
<jonobacon> that provides an overview of platform coverage
<anatoli> instead of "go away" I would prefer "watch this bug/blueprint"
<jonobacon> mhall119: yeah
<jonobacon> that indicates what is in what hasnt arrived yet
<jonobacon> we would need to keep it up to date, but I know an awesome guy who could do that
<jonobacon> who lives in Florida
<jonobacon> who doesn't do QA
<jonobacon> :-)
<jonobacon> anatoli: we should not ask developers to watch Ubuntu platform bugs
<jonobacon> they shouldnt have to care
<jonobacon> trolololol
<Kulithian> what about a goal orientated schedule that updated periodically to show whats behind the goal? the goal doesn't have to be specific, maybe just a "lets get half way done by next week"
<anatoli> it's hard not to care about missing features, though :-)
<jonobacon> brb
<mzanetti> QUESTION: so the topic is also "identifying what's missing". IMO there's too much Qt apis missing. Like sensors, location, connectivity. How will that suffer given that we're focusing on HTML and apparently Go now?
<rickspencer3> write a program that generates a page when something in the sdk is changed?
<mhall119> status.ubuntu.com
<mzanetti> yes, true
<mzanetti> ok. that's good to hear :)
<rickspencer3> it was about documentation
<rickspencer3> let me join
<karni> rickspencer3: https://plus.google.com/hangouts/_/72cpitpvk1f8gi67n41r5dqrl0?authuser=1&hl=en
<anatoli> qdoc at least compile-checks all examples
<Kulithian> what if those features/changes are then pulled from the build?
<Kulithian> would the application recognize that change and adapt the doc?
<anatoli> "some" lag
<Kulithian> and how much bloat and resources will something like that need?
<anatoli> u1db has been qdoc'ed for ages, but the website is a bit of a mess excuse me saying that for finding stuff
<anatoli> and urls keep changing
<dobey> automate all the docs!
<anatoli> it's a bad sign if people say "no docs" about stuff that's been there forever
<mhall119> http://pad.ubuntu.com/uds-1311-appdev-1311-getting-feedback
<anatoli> aquarius: about qdoc compiling I was actually thinking qml. I'm not sure if it does check C++ actually
<mhall119> http://developer.ubuntu.com/api/qml/sdk-1.0/Ubuntu.Content.index/
<kenvandine> mhall119, not yet
<kenvandine> mhall119, i have a branch :)
<kenvandine> the overview pages explains the overall concept, but creating an export hasn't been implemented
<kenvandine> mhall119, the API doesn't include that
<kenvandine> but the page explaining what content hub is doesn't specifically say it only works in one direction
<kenvandine> s/API/API docs/
<mhall119> kenvandine: it would be good to have a disclaimer in the docs about that
<mhall119> so app developers know their limitations
<jonobacon> rickspencer3: no chance
<jonobacon> :-)
<kenvandine> noted
<jonobacon> app devs should *never* run the development snapshot
<kenvandine> aquarius, you're crazy... i haven't had problems like that in a couple cycles
<jonobacon> Rick upgrades to trusty and now expects every app dev to
<jonobacon> lol
<jonobacon> Bacon Wisdom
<jonobacon> once again
<jonobacon> lol
<mhall119> rickspencer3 still wants his rolling release
<dobey> kenvandine: not until ui/feature freeze at least, when everything lands at the last minute and the world explodes :)
<kenvandine> mhall119, rolling rick!
<kenvandine> gotta get rick rolled :)
<rickspencer3> just get on dev instead of trusty
<anatoli> btw this looks like it kinda broke http://developer.ubuntu.com/api/qml/sdk-1.0/UbuntuUserInterfaceToolkit/ there's only one link there
<mhall119> http://developer.ubuntu.com/apps/qml/cookbook/ui-components-and-shell-integration/
* ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-uds-appdev-1 to: Track: App Development | Getting feedback from App Developers | Url: http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-1311/meeting/22022/appdev-1311-getting-feedback/
<aquarius> woah my laptop is hot
<mhall119> anatoli: it's not broke, the other pages are in different namespace sections like Ubuntu.Components and Ubuntu.Layouts
<dobey> so who needs to declare whether to use pkg-config/find_package/qt5_use_modules/qmake qt modules/etcâ¦?
<anatoli> mhall119:so is this also intended? http://developer.ubuntu.com/api/qml/sdk-1.0/Components.Components/
<anatoli> it looks bizarrely fragmented to me
<aquarius> that's a bug, that
<aquarius> I noticed that one :)
<dobey> can it be me? is it rickspencer3 ?
<aquarius> I think it's because that component isn't qdocced in the proper category or something
<mhall119> anatoli: that's from the qdocs, I don't think it's supposed to be that way, but it's how the docs are generated atm
<anatoli> so that's the "is it a bug or not" from earlier. it looks broken to me without knowing how it's generated but it might be intended :-)
<aquarius> this is what I mean :)
<zyga> hi
<zyga> is the session starting?
<mhall119> zyga: in just a minute
<mhall119> https://plus.google.com/hangouts/_/7ecpifd675e2ice19gjl03or74?authuser=1&hl=en for anybody who wants to join me in the hangout
<zyga> ok
<mhall119> going live now
<aquarius> it's basically a function of how we get to be participants in Ubuntu's development process, and how we get to use a thing before it's finished: if, say, MSDN and the universe disagree, then that's a definite MSDN bug, but if d.u.c and the universe disagree then we might be in the middle of fixing it, because the process is open. I don't know how to avoid that with an open process, but... it's much more of a
<aquarius> problem now, because previously anyone who cared about ubuntu docs was developing Ubuntu itself, and now we have mostly app devs who don't care about the stuff being in flux and just want docs that work :(
<pmcgowan> not getting the feed, unsupported format
<jono_> https://plus.google.com/hangouts/_/7ecpifd675e2ice19gjl03or74?authuser=1&hl=en
<mhall119> pmcgowan: try reloading the page?
<pmcgowan> mhall119, must be me, will work it out
<mhall119> can anybody else see the video?
<zyga> works for me
 * mzanetti likes the Ubuntu.Components a lot
<pmcgowan> mhall119, can I join you guys
<mhall119> pmcgowan: sure: https://plus.google.com/hangouts/_/7ecpifd675e2ice19gjl03or74?authuser=1&hl=en
<mhall119> http://pad.ubuntu.com/uds-1311-appdev-1311-getting-feedback
<mhall119> lunch time
* ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-uds-appdev-1 to: Currently no events are active in this room - http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-1311/appdev-1/ - http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2013/11/20/%23ubuntu-uds-appdev-1.html
* ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-uds-appdev-1 to: Track: App Development | Core Apps Test Review | Url: http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-1311/meeting/22071/appdev-1311-core-apps-test-review/
<balloons> anyone who wants in on the session, https://plus.google.com/hangouts/_/7acpia3gmh9ble9uih0df5s220?authuser=0&hl=en
<mhall119> http://pad.ubuntu.com/uds-1311-appdev-1311-core-apps-test-review
<balloons> anyone who wants in: https://plus.google.com/hangouts/_/7acpia3gmh9ble9uih0df5s220?authuser=0&hl=en
<balloons> the more the merrier
<thomi> balloons: mind if I add something to the notes/agenda?
<balloons> thomi, go for it
<thomi> elopio: you need to mute your mic :)
<thomi> or type quieter :)
<balloons> http://reports.qa.ubuntu.com/smokeng/trusty/touch/maguro/26:20131120.1:20131120.1/5059/
<balloons> http://reports.qa.ubuntu.com/smokeng/trusty/touch/maguro/26:20131120.1:20131120.1/5059/ubuntu-weather-app-autopilot/
<popey> i had to drop out to run another session
<thomi> mhall119: coverage at this level is determined by features.
<mhall119> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Touch/CoreApps/Testing
 * thomi is sick of typing... joins hangout...
<nik90> thomi: :)
<veebers> balloons: I don't see stock-ticker-mobile-app on this list: http://reports.qa.ubuntu.com/smokeng/trusty/touch/maguro/26:20131120.1:20131120.1/5059/
<balloons> veebers, same.. it's not pushed across to the public interface for some reson
<robotfuel> do we just mock that when the test is run on the desktop?
<pbass> thomi: i'll see you next hour
<thomi> pbass: ok
 * thomi guesses who 'pbasss' is
<robotfuel> the rss reader can be mocked like the stock ticker app?
<balloons> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu-rssreader-app/+bug/1248737
<udsbotu> Launchpad bug 1248737 in Ubuntu RSS Feed Reader App "Allow to add feeds from the local file system" [High,Confirmed]
<robotfuel> the web browser app also has mocks that can be used as an example
<veebers> elopio, et. al: I'm working on mocking the stock-ticker tests to use a local 'server': https://code.launchpad.net/~veebers/stock-ticker-mobile-app/mock-server-for-testing/+merge/194971
<robotfuel> veebers: +1 :)
<veebers> perhaps we can do something similar for rss reader?
<balloons> thomi, ^^
<elopio> veebers: great :)
<elopio> veebers: mmcc and gatox are doing that for the app updater. Did I mention that already?
<elopio> it would be nice to get a common way to mock servers.
<robotfuel> the web browser app has something similar to veebers mock server as well. so there are 2 good examples of how to do it.
<veebers> elopio: agreed. I based my code off what was in the webbrowser test
<veebers> s
<veebers> robotfuel: heh, there is a reason it's similar :-) I based it off that
<elopio> veebers: sounds like we should make a session about mocking external services.
<thomi> veebers: lets work on this together then, next time you're round here
<veebers> elopio: sweet, as long as it's not at 3am for me ;-)
<veebers> thomi: sounds like a plan
<dkessel> not sure if it is helpful: there is info on mocking google api calls here: https://developers.google.com/api-client-library/python/guide/mocks
<thomi> dkessel: nice, I was going to use the stdlib, but I'll look into that as well
<vthompson> balloons, filemanager issue was a mir issue wasn't it?
<robotfuel> balloons: the math test should probably done with qmltestrunner.
<thomi> robotfuel: with unit tests, please
<thomi> qmltestrunner is only used for ui component testing,
<elopio> robotfuel, thomi: that's a good thing to discuss, what test tool should we use for javascript unit tests?
<thomi> elopio: lets talk about it laters
<thomi> *later, in fact
<vthompson> balloons, interfacing with the various tabs and the items in the playing queue should all get tests
<vthompson> balloons, for music-app
<veebers> balloons: I added my MRs for the stock-ticker that I need to follow up
* ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-uds-appdev-1 to: Track: App Development | The next Ubuntu App Showdown | Url: http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-1311/meeting/22018/appdev-1311-next-app-showdown/
<balloons> veebers, I saw, ty
<balloons> vthompson, please add to pad, and ty!
<veebers> balloons: nw
 * balloons waves to dkessel 
<mhall119> https://plus.google.com/hangouts/_/72cpilpc6qhdd33ubub4r6jvpo?authuser=1&hl=en to join the hangout
<mhall119> will be live in just a minute
<mhall119> jono_: did you want to join this one?
<mhall119> should be livenow
<rschroll> you
<rschroll> 're on
<mhall119> https://plus.google.com/hangouts/_/72cpilpc6qhdd33ubub4r6jvpo?authuser=1&hl=en
<rschroll> Not about development, but I've written my criticism on scoring here: http://rschroll.github.io/beru/2013/11/14/evaluating-the-app-showdown-evaluation.html
<rschroll> yes, Robert
<daker> the scoring part
<rschroll> sorry, I have too many consonants
<rschroll> Basically, I was disappointed that scores weren't reported, publically or privately
<rschroll> Jono had a blog post that tried to explain this, but I found it unconvincing
<daker> be more transparent
<daker> i can't mhall119
<rschroll> Give score , mean and standard deviation
<rschroll> I've tried to explain in the blog post what you can do with this information.
<rschroll> Basically, what areas should I focus on improving?
<rschroll> For written feedback, I've tried to follow up to find more details, but haven't heard back.
<rschroll> It'd be nice to have the content hub working.
<mhall119> 1ttps://plus.google.com/hangouts/_/72cpilpc6qhdd33ubub4r6jvpo?authuser=1&hl=en
<mhall119> https://plus.google.com/hangouts/_/72cpilpc6qhdd33ubub4r6jvpo?authuser=1&hl=en
<rschroll> I'm on the wrong end of a narrow internet pipe.
<rschroll> It's difficult enough to get you streaming to me, I'm afraid
<mhall119> that's ok
<daker> mhall119: the click packaging + uploading story is very good for me
<daker> even excellent i can build package for webapps and get them into the store in minutes
<daker> games
<rschroll> Re theme: No ideas.  I chose something I wanted for myself for this one.
<daker> +1 on games
<rschroll> There could be a games category and a general category.
<Lord_Ankalus> i think 3 categories is nice idea: games, nativ app, html5 app
<vthompson> mhall119, what about some small category for ports? Maybe a smaller prize for best port?
<daker> ya also i like the idea of categories so the showdown will be not restrictive
<vthompson> Now that it sounds like Box2D will be landing on the phone maybe you'll get more neat ports and new games
<vthompson> What about an additional prize of $10 to spend at the click store--once that lands.
<Lord_Ankalus> What do you think of tablets as ubuntu 14.04 focuses on them
<vthompson> +1 on tablets if the showdown is after 14.04 lands
<rschroll> Re prizes: I competed to make myself learn some new things.  The phone would have been a nice bonus, but I would have done it without the prize
<rschroll> you just said "awful lag"
<rschroll> Many students have January off.
<rschroll> (college)
<vthompson> What if judging could be assisted by app reviews in the store?
<rschroll> Thanks, mhall
<mhall119> anything else?
<vthompson> Not from me--everything sounds good
<Lord_Ankalus> bye
* ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-uds-appdev-1 to: Currently no events are active in this room - http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-1311/appdev-1/ - http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2013/11/20/%23ubuntu-uds-appdev-1.html
#ubuntu-uds-appdev-1 2013-11-21
* ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-uds-appdev-1 to: Currently no events are active in this room - http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-1311/appdev-1/ - http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2013/11/21/%23ubuntu-uds-appdev-1.html
* ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-uds-appdev-1 to: Track: App Development | App Developer Roundtable Thu | Url: http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-1311/meeting/22021/app-developer-roundtable-thu/
<mhall119> hangout link to join: https://plus.google.com/hangouts/_/7acpjj0d3h4nsehsjvkqrs2h8o?authuser=1&hl=en
<mhall119> will be a minute late, helping somebody with their schedule
<mhall119> alright, going live now
<mzanetti> mhall119: here nowe
<mzanetti> -e
<mhall119> any last minute questions?
<Moshe> Yes
<Moshe> Why David attends this http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-1311/meeting/22079/appdev-1311-sdk-apps-performance/
<Moshe> Bye
<Moshe> see ya
* ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-uds-appdev-1 to: Track: App Development | Supporting touch apps on Ubuntu desktop | Url: http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-1311/meeting/22075/appdev-1311-apps-convergence/
<bfiller> mhall119: should I setup the hangout for the next session?
<mhall119> bfiller: if you're running it yes
<bfiller> mhall119: ack
<mhall119> hangout URL: https://plus.google.com/hangouts/_/7ecpji96dlvlrvqdueto0ho8u4?authuser=0&hl=en
<dholbach> http://pad.ubuntu.com/uds-1311-appdev-1311-apps-convergence
<oSoMoN> link to the hangout?
<boiko> oSoMoN: hangout URL: https://plus.google.com/hangouts/_/7ecpji96dlvlrvqdueto0ho8u4?authuser=0&hl=en
<oSoMoN> thx boiko
<greyback> QUESTION: Is the "Tabs" design considered usable on the desktop?
<iBelieve> greyback:I filed this bug, which got marked as wishlist: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu-ui-toolkit/+bug/1193981
<udsbotu> Launchpad bug 1193981 in Ubuntu UI Toolkit "Display tabs as traditional tabs on the desktop" [Wishlist,Confirmed]
<asomething> greyback, I've thought it would be nice if tabs turned into columns if there was enough space (ie on the desktop)
<greyback> iBelieve: yep, that's an option
<greyback> asomething: that's a very responsive UI layout idea, and yes something we've been experimenting with
<pmcgowan> bfiller, there was a commitment from the last sprint to get initial design feedback mid dec
<iBelieve> asomething:the problem with that, at least in some apps, is that a specific tab might want to be full-width, and some apps might not want that type of layout. So if that type of layout is added, it should be optional
<boiko> asomething: I'm not completelly sure turn tabs into columns is a good idea, usually tabs are used to separate different kinds of content/presentation/context, but maybe on a case-by-case evaluation that can be an option
<greyback> QUESTION: desktop apps can take advantage of right-click - do we need a widget for a right-click menu?
<iBelieve> greyback:I'd like to see long-press on a touch screen be turned into a right-click on the desktop
<iBelieve> greyback:so then a popover component should be good enough
<iBelieve> QUESTION: Will a settings page be displayed differently on the desktop, such as in a separate dialog, versus in a tab on tablet/phone?
<greyback> iBelieve: tbh I'm not a fan of long press at all. It's quite easy to do accidentally
<pmcgowan> we won't have "two sdks", but we will keep it simple for 14.04
<bfiller> http://developer.ubuntu.com/api/qml/sdk-1.0/Ubuntu.Layouts/
<pmcgowan> there is a devices API, need to check it
<greyback> nope, nothing in qtubuntu for that
<pmcgowan> there is in qt if I recall right
<mhall119> greyback: can you join the hangout?
<greyback> mhall119: if you'd like. I've not much to say
<mhall119> greyback: you have questions :)
<mhall119> iBelieve: you too if you can join
<mhall119> https://plus.google.com/hangouts/_/7ecpji96dlvlrvqdueto0ho8u4?authuser=0&hl=en
<iBelieve> mhall119:I wish, but I'm not 18 yet, so Google won't let me :(
<mhall119> ah, that limit sucks
<iBelieve> yeah, it is disappointing
<asomething> These should be landing along with Qt 5.2 in trusty http://blog.qt.digia.com/blog/2012/06/06/desktop-components-for-qt-5/
<iBelieve> mhall119:I meant an app's own preferences/settings
<michelR> in previous vUDS? Katie said that settings will be unified via HUD
<iBelieve> when I referred to displaying in a separate window, I was referring to the SDK somehow opening it in a separate window on the desktop. The developer wouldn't be able to open windows.
<iBelieve> No desktop app that I know of replaces the app's content view with settings or puts the settings in a tab, so the current way of having everything from an app in one window doesn't make sense on the desktop.
<iBelieve> bfiller:an example of an app that doesn't scale well when being resized is the calendar app. It looks really bad when maximized.
<boiko> desktop Qt apps are given the chance to limit their sizes if they want to, maybe that's something we can include in the mainview or layout API?
<mhall119> iBelieve: if we're going to provide a unified way or defining and displaying settings, we can offer something like a modal dialog on desktop yes
<karni> Was a bit in an out. Were pickers and toolbars mentioned? How would they change when a tablet switches to 'desktop' mode with keyboard and mose, or how common bits on the phone & desktop?
<iBelieve> QUESTION: Will multi-touch mice/touchpads, like on Macs, be supported? For example, if there is a mouse, but it is multi-touch, then scrollbars would be hidden as on touch.
<mhall119> karni: toolbars were, pickers not yet
<mhall119> switching from touch to mouse input has also been discussed
<iBelieve> mhall119:I heard/saw that, but I don't think anything about multi-touch mouse input was discussed.
<mhall119> iBelieve: right, I was answering karni
<karni> mhall119: I'll review that, thanks
<iBelieve> mhall119:oh, sorry
* ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-uds-appdev-1 to: Track: App Development | 14.04 Roadmap for System Apps | Url: http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-1311/meeting/22077/appdev-1311-apps-systemapps-roadmap/
<karni> Thanks all
<bfiller> http://pad.ubuntu.com/uds-1311-appdev-1311-apps-systemapps-roadmap
<tedg> bfiller, Any plans to increase HUD usage in the core apps?
<tedg> bfiller, Cool, thanks!
<tedg> bfiller, I thought syncevolution just needed to be setup?  Why can't that land?
<tedg> bfiller, My understanding is that it's build for that use-case.  So it's more a matter of setting up a refresh.
<tedg> bfiller, I believe that kenvandine knows more about it.
<tedg> He likes work items :-)
<kenvandine> tedg, not really, ideally we really need UOA support
<kenvandine> and a mechanism to make it refresh
<tedg> kenvandine, I thought that UOA support was in progress?
<kenvandine> not sure what the latest is
<kenvandine> tedg, i know upstream is receptive to it
<tedg> K
<tedg> The Upstart guys are talking about trying to get the time bridge working this cycle.
<tedg> So that'd provide the refresh mechanism
<tedg> Thanks bfiller, great update!
<karni> Thank you bfiller!
<bfiller> you're welcome :)
* ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-uds-appdev-1 to: Currently no events are active in this room - http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-1311/appdev-1/ - http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2013/11/21/%23ubuntu-uds-appdev-1.html
* ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-uds-appdev-1 to: Track: App Development | Apps and easy data access (webservices and more) | Url: http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-1311/meeting/22078/appdev-1311-sdk-apps-data-access/
<Kaleo> hi
<pmcgowan> mhall119, this your HO?
<mhall119> pmcgowan: kind of
<pmcgowan> I mean setting it up
<Kaleo> https://plus.google.com/hangouts/_/72cpjq6gpjgk9fene1cuscahkk?authuser=1&hl=en
<mhall119> pmcgowan: I've setup the hanout, going live now
<mhall119> it's Kaleo's topic though
<pmcgowan> understood
<Kaleo> mzanetti, you want to join?
<Kaleo> kenvandine, ? :)
<dobey> pmcgowan: yeah i think the fan noise is you
<kenvandine> Kaleo, i'm in another session
<Kaleo> :)
<kenvandine> Kaleo, but if you need me, ping me :)
<pmcgowan> dobey, yeah
<aquarius> consider my +1 for jsonlistmodel.... or +100 :)
<kenvandine> +10 for me :)
<aquarius> given that, and some way to do authentication, working with remote APIs is trivial
<aquarius> it's reasonably easy now, if you implement stuff yourself with XHR, but it'd be nice if that was wrapped up in something.
<Kaleo> aquarius, nice
<Kaleo> aquarius, join us!
<dobey> heh. i have thought a lot about this problem, but never got around to writing the stuff i wanted to write, to do this. and then the current online-accounts stuff got written and i had nothing to do with it
<aquarius> the biggest problem here isn't JSONListModel, really, it's authentication. JSONListModel isn't that hard to implement yourself, but it is hard to implement generically so that you can do arbitrary authentication methods (oauth, basic auth, add api key to every request, flickrauth, etc)
<aquarius> pmcgowan, I think that that abstraction layer you're talking about *is* JSONListModel
<aquarius> I'm not sure anything more complex is required
<mzanetti> yeah. the problem is that you need queries
<aquarius> Kaleo, I'm trying to cook dinner at the same time, henc not joinnig ;)
<aquarius> mzanetti, xmllistmodel handles that well with query and role; jsonlistmodel can do a similar thing, using JSON Pointer.
<Kaleo> ok
<aquarius> this is what JSON Pointer is *for* :)
<dobey> aquarius: you need google glass apparently
<aquarius> http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6901
<dobey> aquarius: then we can watch you cook, and listen to you rant, at the same time
<aquarius> jsonpointer RFC
<dobey> mhall119: why do we even have online-accounts then? :)
<aquarius> mhall119, almost nobody uses basic auth for API access.
<dobey> having written a non-standard online-accounts plug-in, i wouldn't recommend other people do it
<aquarius> mhall119, it's either api key based, or oauth. Neither are a username/password combinaion.
<pmcgowan> I mispoke when I said basic
<dobey> it would be nice if it didn't require adding the metadata to use basic auth or oauth though
<dobey> you'd be surprised how many services use basic auth
<aquarius> I think you guys are confusing two things to do with API auth here: there is "how do I get the credentials" (which is clearly Online Accounts's job) and then "once I have the credentials, how do I use them to make a request for the API endpoint" (which is not necessarily Online Accounts at all; it is oauth signing, or flickr auth signing, or getting a frob, or whatever)
<dobey> there are thousands of sites that use basic auth
<dobey> aquarius just isn't interested in them because they're not web 10.0
<aquarius> dobey, for json-based APIs? I think I'd disagree, but OK -- my point is really that there are many different auth methods
<dobey> aquarius: they aren't necessarily using JSON, no. but they exist
<aquarius> It's not at all clear to me that "make a request to the endpoint and use the credentials" belongs in Online Accounts at all; that sounds like something my app should do
<dobey> mhall119: i mean it would be nice if for standard auth models (basic, pure oauth, etcâ¦ ) that one didn't need to provide the service/provider info for online-accounts
<dobey> just have an API to say "here is my endpoint, or the realm i need to use" "set it up"
<mzanetti> so I guess OnlineAccounts would need to be capable of signing oauth parameters and/or building those queries - depending on which oauth method is used
<dobey> aquarius: i think they do belong there. every app that wants to show an image from flickr shouldn't have to duplicate code to talk to flickr
<aquarius> dobey, right, but I can't think what a generic API would look like that Online Accounts can provide to apps
<pmcgowan> do we need any additional level of abstraction like a DataSource ?
<Kaleo> http://techbase.kde.org/Development/Tutorials/Plasma/DataEngines
<dobey> aquarius: i sort of can, but i never got around to actually writing it (as i said earlier) :)
<mzanetti> Kaleo: that's probably not what we want
<Kaleo> http://developer.blackberry.com/native/reference/cascades/bb__data__datasource.html
<aquarius> OnlineAccounts.Account.requestThisApiUrlUsingWhateverAuthMethodYouNeedToUse("http://service.com/api/method?whatever"), I suppose/
<dobey> aquarius: i mean, we're already doing some of this anyway, in unity. the scopes api does exactly that (though in most cases currently unauthenticated)
<Kaleo> http://developer.blackberry.com/native/documentation/cascades/device_platform/data_access/using_data_source.html
<aquarius> dobey, right, but the scopes API is very constrained: it provides getAListOfSearchResults and getDataForThisOneSearchResult, and then the rest is scope-specific
<aquarius> dobey, apps want to do things other than those :)
<dobey> aquarius: right. i'm just saying it's a start, not the end solution
<aquarius> like, say, upgrade my account by paying Â£5 or something. It's hard to see how to map that onto a generic API
<dobey> aquarius: for basic things like searching inside the gallery app, for photos on flickr, it'd work great
<mzanetti> aquarius: yeah... that's what I think too
<aquarius> Kaleo, all the datasource stuff I know about doesn't handle authentication very well :(
<dobey> aquarius: it doesn't need to be a totally generic api though
<dobey> aquarius: it needs to be generic for doing generic things, and provide a way to do specific things when needed
<aquarius> This conversation is, I think, too handwavy. Kaleo, mhall119, I think a useful approach might be to define four or five things that would be good to talk to, and then define what the API would look like that would allow talking to them. So a couple of the things that dobey mentioned which have basic auth, and then Flickr, Yummly.com, and Paypal, for example
<aquarius> mhall119, there is potential commonality here with the generic json scope, no? Both need a semi-generic way to define a JSON endpoint, queries into it to get data, and auth...
<mhall119> aquarius: to a point yes, but I think apps will need more than scopes
<aquarius> I can rough out a few different APIs if you want me to, mhall119
<aquarius> happy to do, say, simple flickr, yummly, and something that dobey comes up with?
<aquarius> but it will look a lot like What Stuart Wants The API To Look Like
<Kaleo> What Stuart Wants The API To Look Like is usually good
<aquarius> bilf: there are about fifteen different half-baked implementations of JSONListModel ;)
<aquarius> er, bfiller ;)
<mzanetti> yeah... exacly bfiller... You never know what you get. in the end you have tree of json objects but you don't know what to do with it
<dobey> JSON, XML, or csv are the most common way to get data
<aquarius> bfiller, do you have a few good examples of that sort of XML data?
<aquarius> something that's not easily parseable with xmllistmodel but *is* regular enough that it could be parsed with a theoretical BillFillerXMLListModel? (i.e., not totally irregular)
<pmcgowan> the rss reader also did a lot with this
<pmcgowan> xml data
<aquarius> bfiller, being unable to parse multi-model XML into a ListModel isn't really an XML parsing problem... it's a function of ListModel itself. The rule for a ListModel is that all the items in the model have to have the same keys -- you are not supposed to have one ListModel which contains both airlines and hotels :)
<pmcgowan> sounds like the problem is very data/site specific
<aquarius> bfiller, that's not an XML problem -- you can't have one ListModel with both airlines and hotels in it even if you populate it yourself
<aquarius> you can get to the parent node, indeed
<Kaleo> http://qt-project.org/wiki/Qt_and_Web_Services
<aquarius> you'd end up with your ListElements being { type: airline, details: { an airline-specific dict of stuff }}, { type: hotel, details: { an hotel-specific dict of stuff }}
<aquarius> bfiller, yeah, I've been going on about auth and controlling the request from XMLListModel for the whole session, don't worrk ;)
<aquarius> *worry :)
<bfiller> aquarius: haha, good :)
<aquarius> No way to create an XML/JSON doc from input data simply in QML, other than by hand ( mydoc = {name: qmlinputfield.text, address: qmlinputfield2.text}, etc)
<aquarius> Kaleo, yeah, I just noticed that that work item is totally fixed by your link ;)
<Kaleo> :)
<Kaleo> aquarius, write a beautiful Stuart API TM
<Kaleo> aquarius, that's the next work item for you
 * aquarius updates the notes to point at Kaleo's link ;)
<mzanetti> yeah... I guess I can look into it if kgunn is fine with it
<Kaleo> lol
 * aquarius laughs
<aquarius> stop trying to just trying to assign stuff to me :)
<bfiller> aquarius: good example of problem I was talking about: http://qt-project.org/forums/viewthread/3685
<aquarius> bfiller, right. That dude there wants a ListModel which contains both Channel and Program items
<aquarius> that's not allowed. ListModels don't work like that.
<aquarius> It would be nice if they did, but they don't ;)
<bfiller> aquarius: I want the same thing :)
<aquarius> I see what you mean about the parent node thnig, though
<kyleN> I'll be glad to write something up with a bit of guidance to start with from the technical experts
<mzanetti> o/
<pmcgowan> kyleN, thanks
<bfiller> aquarius: your ListElement example above though is exactly what I want but from XmlListModel. Looks like it's easy with Json to do it
* ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-uds-appdev-1 to: Currently no events are active in this room - http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-1311/appdev-1/ - http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2013/11/21/%23ubuntu-uds-appdev-1.html
<aquarius> bfiller, yeah... ideally you'd do this: http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/6454817/ but it doesn't work, which must be an XmlListModel limitation where it won't ascend to the parent :(
<aquarius> bfiller_afk, mzanetti ^
