#ubuntu-mobile 2007-11-15
<MIDIE> Amit,  I am trying to enable for the LCD Touch screen, the Touchscreen uses a penmount 6000 driver which requires USB Filesystem support in the kernel.  Do you know if this is planned to be implemented anytime soon?
<ChickenCutlass> amitk: ping
<amitk> ChickenCutlass: yo mike!
<ChickenCutlass> amitk: Can you tell me what version of ACPI is supported in the kernel
<amitk> 2.x
<MIDIE> ah.. so thats how one gets someones attention
<ChickenCutlass> amitk: that is what I though -- our customer is having trouble with their BIOS -- we are not getting events like battery, ac interrupts
<ChickenCutlass> They said they are using ACPI 2.0
<amitk> MIDIE: yes... you need to use the nickname to get the irc client to beep ;)
<MIDIE> thanks..
<amitk> ChickenCutlass: does this happen on Crownbeach boards too?
<ChickenCutlass> amitk: I do not know -- there is no battery so how can I tell
<ChickenCutlass> amitk: Is there a way to debug this
<amitk> so its only battery and ac events?
<amitk> ChickenCutlass: have you checked for thermal events?
<MIDIE> There should be a Battery virtual drive supported by the BIOS
<ChickenCutlass> amitk: also power button
<amitk> MIDIE: identify yourself... you are from behind the Intel firewall :)
<ChickenCutlass> amitk: how do I check thermal events
<MIDIE> I am the MID IE and PDE for Menlow
<MIDIE> Robert Frisbee
<amitk> IE & PDE?
<amitk> MIDIE: Hi Robert
<MIDIE> Yea..  I am taking over Bond, PDE duties for menlow
<amitk> MIDIE: What is IE and PDE? :)
<MIDIE> IE = Integration Engineer and PDE = Product Development Engineer
<ChickenCutlass> MIDIE: Can you tell me if there are any ACPI issues with Menlow or Poulsbo?  My customer says that the ACPI in the BIOS works just fine under XP but not Linux
<amitk> ChickenCutlass: It exports a /sys file somewhere... And I assume is should have something in /proc/acpi as well
<MIDIE> Which board version and BIOS version are you using. 
<MIDIE> There are issues with the older boards and BIOS's with ACPI compliancy
<ChickenCutlass> MIDIE: They are using a B1 stepping of the Poulsbo
<ChickenCutlass> MIDIE: Can you be more specific about the issues - - can you think of why XP would work fine and not Linux
<MIDIE> so that has the Silverthorne A1 running BIOS version.20 something..
<MIDIE> Let me check my errata sheet
<ChickenCutlass> MIDIE: thanks
<patm> MIDIE, It is a Phoenix BIOS that they are customizing themselves
<MIDIE> Oh.
<MIDIE> Hmm..  If they are customizing their own BIOS, I am afraid I cannot be much help.   I would recommend them try version .54 which is available up on ARMS.  There were some issues related to ACPI that were fixed around BIOS version 46
<MIDIE> If BIOS 54 solves there problem, then I would look at what they are trying to implement
<MIDIE> A wild swing in the dark, I would think there might be a problem with how ACPI is identified by the OS which is causing problem
<amitk> MIDIE: I have a Crownbeach with AMIBIOS 08.00.14. Do I need to update?
<amitk> ChickenCutlass: could you check for the thermal events
<ChickenCutlass> MIDIE: I tried passing the acpi_osi to Linux but that does not seem to help
<ChickenCutlass> amitk: I can check tomorrow -- I do not have the board with me
<MIDIE> Look at the ID string..
<MIDIE> something like PSC0G0XX  the XX is your BIOS version
<amitk> 44
<MIDIE> ChickenCutlass did the Xp installation have the chipset drivers installed?
<MIDIE> ok..  The latest BIOS is .54 some ACPI issues were fixed on version 46
<MIDIE> amitk do you have access to ARMS?
<amitk> MIDIE: none of us do
<MIDIE> Hmm..
<MIDIE> How do you usually get BIOS updates?
<MIDIE> through Premier?
<amitk> MIDIE: not gotten one yet
<ChickenCutlass> MIDIE: I will have to check that
<ChickenCutlass> MIDIE: Which drivers exactly?
<MIDIE> Ok..  I just made sure the legal stuff was out of the way so we can post .54 to premier.  I will check with my support person to see if he has loaded them up yet.
<MIDIE> the chipset drivers IntelÂ® ALL OS 8.2.0.1012 PV
<MIDIE> I know that the chipset drivers include ACPI functionality for Windows.   I am curious if the chipset team is enabling for linux and if functionality has been left out.  I am going to have to dig into this a little.
<amitk> MIDIE: ChickenCutlass: But ACPI events should come from the BIOS, right? Chipset drivers shouldn't be required for that...
<ChickenCutlass> amitk: that is what I thought
<MIDIE> Yes.. For the most part.  However
<MIDIE> I have noticed that sometimes the ACPI spec was deviated from.   For example,  I have difficulty checking processor temp and voltage without the Intel Specific tools.
<MIDIE> to be honest,  I have not tried with Menlow and XP.
<MIDIE> I will have to give it a looksie and see if Menlow also has a ACPI which is "customized"
<ChickenCutlass> MIDIE: If this helps sci events are not working
<MIDIE> gimmeasec.  I am loading Ubuntu onto my system and loading the ACPI tools.
<MIDIE> JUST out of curiosity.  Is your BIOS set to conform to the 2.0 or 3.0 spec?
<ChickenCutlass> 2.0
<MIDIE> SCI events has to be enabled, It comes disabled by default
<ChickenCutlass> oh -- how does one do that
<MIDIE> I believe its in Advanced > acpi configuration > chipset ACPI > 
<MIDIE> then you can enable the SCI IRQ
<MIDIE> amitk I am trying to enable the LCD Touch screen for Crown Beach, the touchscreen that we have uses a penmount 6000 driver which requires the USB Filesystem to be supported in the Kernel.  Do you know if this is going to be implemented anytime soon,  or are you waiting to receive the LCD Kits before its enabled.
<ChickenCutlass> MIDIE: ok -- I will look and see tomorrow if the BIOS I have actually has this option.
<MIDIE> if it does not.  check premier for the latest BIOS.  I know .54 has the option
<MIDIE> if your running an older BIOS, just upgrading might solve your problem
<MIDIE> I need to play with ACPI more.  
<ChickenCutlass> MIDIE: ok -- need to go thanks for the ideas
<MIDIE> on the Moblin Ubuntu,  I am able to get battery states from the ACPI
<amitk> MIDIE: You mean USB_DEVICEFS?
<MIDIE> amitk yes
<amitk> MIDIE: Looks like it is enabled for the lpia flavour in the Ubuntu kernel
<MIDIE> Hmm...  wierd,  I checked under proc and it did not seem to be supported.
<MIDIE> I will poke at it more
<StevenK> MIDIE: The config used to build the kernel is under /boot, for digging purposes
<MIDIE> Cool.  Thanks!  Perhaps I just need to update my version.  I am still on build 11
<amitk> MIDIE: I just booted up my Crownbeach. cat /proc/filesystems shows usbfs
<MIDIE> amitk ok.   I will rebuild.  I just checked, and I don't have a /proc/filesystems  /proc/fs only has nfsd
<amitk> MIDIE: even my /proc/fs has only nfsd
<amitk> but you need to mount the usb filesystem, right?
<MIDIE> I don't have filesystems.  Yes. the driver for penmounts needs it
<MIDIE> amitk yea.. Its looking for USB device filesystem but it want one to mount it from mount -t usbdevfs none /proc/bus/usb
<amitk> MIDIE: yeah... that can be added to fstab
<corevette> how is the project coming along?
<dholbach> good morning
<davidm> Just about time to start the meeting
<Sciri> Greetings davidm.
<davidm> hi Sciri 
<lool> hey
<davidm> Does anyone know if Don Johnson is joining us today?  I don't see him here
<mawhalen> I'll check
<davidm> thanks
<lool> davidm: A lot of Intel folk seem to have been disconnected last hour
<davidm> Ouch, that has happend before when their proxy died 
<rustyl> the proxy seems to be working now
<davidm> I'll wait a few more minutes before starting. rustyl good to hear :-)
<rustyl> i'm behind the firewall right now
<lool> Indeed, I see people rejoining again now
<davidm> Ah, Don_Johnson just joined. :-)
<Don_Johnson> Yes, I'm here.
<davidm> OK I'll start the meeting then unless we need to wait for anyone else?
<davidm> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 17:03. The chair is davidm.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<davidm> OK action items from the last meeing in order.
<davidm> topic upload new version of hildon-desktop out of bzr 
<davidm> closed: tfheen/lool to upload new version of hildon-desktop out of bzr (lool: Complete)
<davidm> grumble forgot the []
<davidm> net topic
<lool> (unless anyone has any question on this; it's built for lpia too)
<davidm> [topic] bspencer & horaceli to verify the ubuntu branch works and suggest changes.
<MootBot> New Topic:  bspencer & horaceli to verify the ubuntu branch works and suggest changes. 
<lool> They aren't around
<lool> Postpone until end of meeting?
<davidm> I was just noticing that.  Don_Johnson should we postpone this to the end or next meeting?
<ToddBrandt> here
<bfiller> any Intel guys know if bspencer will be joining?
<cwong1_> he just joined moblin
<Don_Johnson> I don't know if Bob will be joining.
<cwong1_> I sent him a message to join
<lool> I also pinged horaceli on #moblin
<davidm> hi bspencer_ 
<lool> 18:05 < davidm> [topic] bspencer & horaceli to verify the ubuntu branch works  and suggest changes.
<lool> bspencer_: ^
<bspencer_> hello. sorry for being tardy.  I'll stay after school and clean the erasers.
<davidm> :-P
<bspencer_> lool, thx.  We tried it and all seems ok.
<lool> Cool
<bfiller> is this in regards to PPA?
<davidm> bspencer_, no changes to suggest then?
<bspencer_> lool,  I don't have changes per say, but we have new things we might need to add soon
<bspencer_> hildon-desktop ubuntu branch is good
<bspencer_> we want to be able to disable the hildon-desktop banner from showning.
<lool> bspencer_: Okay; feel free to push these and/or ask me to pull stuff from somewhere (patch or bzr branch; please not git!)
<bspencer_> bfiller -- how are you doing that now?  Or do you just have 2 banners showing?
<bfiller> bspencer_: two banner currently showing..
<bspencer_> lool, right.  We'll push these into ubuntu branch and notifiy you
<lool> bspencer_: bfiller added a gconf key allowing this to be hidden or shown
<bspencer_> bfiller, lame
<bspencer_> lool,  I think that was for the marquee, not the startup banner
<Mithrandir> bspencer_: hildon-desktop banner?
<lool> bspencer_: Ah right
<bfiller> bspencer_: easy enough to add for banner too
<bspencer_> Mithrandir, there is a "app starting" banner in hildon-desktop
<bspencer_> bfiller, true.  That is a good option
<Mithrandir> ah, that one.  Yes
<bspencer_> Mithrandir, bfiller has a better solution for a banner.  
<bfiller> bspencer_: I'll take the action for looking at it
<bspencer_> bfiller, great.
<bspencer_> <bfiller> is this in regards to PPA?
<bspencer_> this would go into both Hardy and PPA
<bspencer_> (right ? )
<lool> If it's useful in the PPA, which I guess is the case for bfiller, then yes
<davidm> bfiller, is this the action item you are taking: "bfiller to for looking into  a better solution for a banner to be hidden or shown in hildon-desktop"
<bfiller> bspencer_: have you tested latest hildon_desktop with the flash plugin home screen (as opposed to html)
<bfiller> bspencer_: yes, correct
<bfiller> bspencer_: seems like you can't click in flash movie in latest hildon-desktop
<bfiller> davidm: yes
<bspencer_> bfiller,  latest hildon-desktop means which one? 
<bspencer_> the one in gutsy now?
<davidm> [action] bfiller to for looking into  a better solution for a banner to be hidden or shown in hildon-desktop
<MootBot> ACTION received:  bfiller to for looking into  a better solution for a banner to be hidden or shown in hildon-desktop 
<bspencer_> and which mobile-basic-flash ?
 * amitk is back
<bfiller> bspencer_: sorry, the one in PPA and ubuntu branch on launchpad
<lool> bspencer_: 0.43; the one in PPA or hardy
<lool> or bzr branch
<lool> (in *gutsy* PPA or in hardy)
<bspencer_> bfiller,  I  didn't try with  flash.   If you are seeing problems then perhaps my job isn't done.
<bspencer_> but I'm wondering if hildon-desktop is the reason...  Seems odd
<bfiller> bspencer_: I'll take action to investigate this issue (if in fact it is one..)
<bspencer_> davidm,  better leave my ACTION open.  I'll try to close with bfiller on the flash problem.
<davidm> bspencer_, will do.
<bspencer_> bfiller, ok.  We'll check on it too
<davidm> bspencer_, that was ubuntu branch works?
<bspencer_> davidm, yes
<davidm> [action] continue to hold open: bspencer & horaceli to verify the ubuntu branch works and suggest changes. for next week.
<MootBot> ACTION received:  continue to hold open: bspencer & horaceli to verify the ubuntu branch works and suggest changes. for next week. 
<davidm> OK are we ready to move to the next item?
<bspencer_> yep
<davidm> [topic] Don_Johnson to explain USB client use case when user is using ext3 on device and windows on desktop
<MootBot> New Topic:  Don_Johnson to explain USB client use case when user is using ext3 on device and windows on desktop 
<lool> Don_Johnson: ^
<Don_Johnson> Sorry, give me a minute to catch up.
<Don_Johnson> We looked into this use case.  The USB client utilities being provided by Intel will not address this case.
<Don_Johnson> How we address this user case is an open issue.
<smagoun> Don_Johnson: we think this is the primary use case for USB client. When do you expect to have a plan?
<davidm> What will the USB client actually do?  Just provide access to any installed flash cards that are VFAT in type? (Like the Nokia N800 does.)
<Don_Johnson> I'll have to escalate it to see if we can get some resoruces to work on it.
<Mithrandir> Don_Johnson: it doesn't seem clear to me how the USB client support is supposed to work at all then?
<Don_Johnson> Yes, this appears to be a big hole.  Which I'll have to follow up on.
<Mithrandir> thanks
<Mithrandir> davidm: can you give Don_Johnson an action item so we make sure this gets followed up on?
<kyleN_> Given the many connection options on the MID, I wonder whether USB client support is needed. how about network shares instead 
<davidm> [action] Don_Johnson to investigate USB client use case and how to export ext3 filesystems to windows use case  
<MootBot> ACTION received:  Don_Johnson to investigate USB client use case and how to export ext3 filesystems to windows use case   
<Don_Johnson> At least we need to have an understanding of how it might be used.  So I'll look into that.
<davidm> I do know that the Nokia N800 does not export the file system, only the installed flash cards, but then it only writes files to the flash cards that I've seen when I use mine.
<davidm> But I could have missed something.
<amitk> davidm: That is correct
<davidm> Are we ready for the next action from last week?
<lool> I am (complete too; nothing to report here in particular)
<Mithrandir> sure, move on
<davidm> [topic] lool to upload h-d to ppa (Complete)
<MootBot> New Topic:  lool to upload h-d to ppa (Complete) 
<davidm> This appears to be complet
<lool> (so that's done; it was the same as the first upload, but to a different target)
<davidm> Next topic
<davidm> [topic] lool to upload an updated MIC which uses the PPA /by default/
<MootBot> New Topic:  lool to upload an updated MIC which uses the PPA /by default/ 
<lool> That's in progress now; I've started piling some small fixes on MIC and will work on changing URLs next
<smagoun> lool: which version of MIC are you working on? 
<lool> The git one
<smagoun> right, which revision? it changes almost daily?
<lool> Which I'll ultimately test and upload to hardy, then backport to gutsy-ppa with the URLs updated to pull from gutsy+gutsy-ppa
<smagoun> or are you pulling a new rev each day?
<amitk> lool: What does it mean by default? Will MIC not pick up LUM in the gutsy repo?
<lool> smagoun: I pulled this morning again
<lool> smagoun: I'm pulling regularly
<lool> amitk: I'm going to change MIC in hardy to pull from hardy + hardy-ppa (currently empty, but for symetry)
<lool> Then backport the same MIC source code to gutsy-ppa but change it to pull from gutsy+gutsy-ppa
<davidm> lool, do you have an ETC for it?
<lool> So the MIC in hardy will pull from hardy and the MIC in gutsy-ppa will pull from "gutsy+ppa"
<amitk> lool: ok.. thats fine then.
<smagoun> just be careful with what you pull, MIC in git has been unstable
<lool> davidm: Unless it's overly complicated, I should be done on monday, but tests might take me some time
<tonyespy> lool: let us know if you need help testing...
<davidm> So I'll carry it as an action item for next week then?
<lool> tonyespy: Thanks
<lool> davidm: Yup
<davidm> [action] carry over lool to upload an updated MIC which uses the PPA /by default/ to next week.
<MootBot> ACTION received:  carry over lool to upload an updated MIC which uses the PPA /by default/ to next week. 
<davidm> [topic] rob_ubuntu take an action item to report back to the team what i find out and what our requirements will be for graphics drivers
<MootBot> New Topic:  rob_ubuntu take an action item to report back to the team what i find out and what our requirements will be for graphics drivers 
<robr> i sent out email last week to the list to cover this topic
<lool> robr: What are the chances to get something cleaner for gutsy's xorg?
<smagoun> I did some digging, there are only a couple small differences between EXA 2.1 and Intel's EXA
<robr> basically the current psb gfx driver requires xorg 1.3 with a patch for libexa to bring it up from 2.1 to 2.2 + changes
<lool> (Either small patches for libexa 1.1 or a libexa 1.1 backport of the driver)
<lool> robr: Bringing exa to 2.2 is not acceptable to our xorg folks, so we wouldn't be able to support this
<robr> i'm working with the gfx driver team to get them to move to xorg 1.4 which has version libexa 2.2 and is in Hardy
<smagoun> FWIW the delta between 2.1 and 2.2 is really small, and the primary change is labelled "this is backwards compatible"
<robr> in addition i'm working with them to get drm.ko from the version they have not to the drm.ko that is in the 2.6.24 kernel
<lool> smagoun: Bryce told me moving from exa 2.1 to 2.2 would be huge work to backport
<Mithrandir> I'd like us to focus forward and not get stuck in trying to backport the world to the PPA.  The current version works, albeit with performance problems.
<lool> Like between 6 and 12 core xorg modules to backport
<robr> this is getting kicked around the management chain here at intel -- so i don't yet have a commit to make these changes
<smagoun> robr: so to be clear, we (canonical mobile business unit) are on our own for accelerated 2D support, right?
<lool> Mithrandir: The MID team needs to use gutsy though
<robr> smagoun: i'm not following what you mean
<lool> Mithrandir: The main target (hardy) seems to be in progress as upstream driver folks rebase on 2.2 and the hardy kernel version
<Mithrandir> lool: for now, yes.  We're not going to try to get exa 2.2 with xserver 1.3, that's not recommended by upstream at all.
<smagoun> robr: Intel's not going to deliver functional 2D acceleration on gutsy
<robr> Mithrandir: i agree with you and i'm trying to work the issue on this end
<Mithrandir> lool: investing significant resources into the PPA stopgap is not something we want to do.  It's a stopgap measure, nothing more.
<Mithrandir> robr: yup, thanks.
<lool> Mithrandir: Yes, which is why I'm questionning the availability of exa 2.1 patches (for xorg 1.3)
<lool> Mithrandir: You mean for UME or UME + MID?
<smagoun> lool: Intel's EXA is 2.1 + the following patches:
<smagoun> http://gitweb.freedesktop.org/?p=xorg/xserver.git;a=commitdiff;h=f8482967ae8080f49dd1bbb0b79cc65020df679f
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://gitweb.freedesktop.org/?p=xorg/xserver.git;a=commitdiff;h=f8482967ae8080f49dd1bbb0b79cc65020df679f 
<smagoun> http://gitweb.freedesktop.org/?p=xorg/xserver.git;a=commitdiff;h=56cc24ffb21f7fd41f9ea9e8f969aa85021b9f53
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://gitweb.freedesktop.org/?p=xorg/xserver.git;a=commitdiff;h=56cc24ffb21f7fd41f9ea9e8f969aa85021b9f53 
<smagoun> http://gitweb.freedesktop.org/?p=xorg/xserver.git;a=commitdiff;h=6ed08949af4f7ac09170d3d9581e4092b24a84ee
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://gitweb.freedesktop.org/?p=xorg/xserver.git;a=commitdiff;h=6ed08949af4f7ac09170d3d9581e4092b24a84ee 
<smagoun> yuck...thanks mootbot.
<davidm> So it will listen to others for some things......
<Mithrandir> lool: first, please don't confuse xorg version numbers with xserver version numbers.  They're not the same. :-)
<Mithrandir> lool: secondly, xserver 1.3 already has exa 2.1, iirc?
<smagoun> Mithrandir: yes
<lool> Mithrandir: Yes, not 2.2
<lool> Mithrandir: Where did I confuse these two??
<Mithrandir> 18:37 < lool> Mithrandir: Yes, which is why I'm questionning the availability of exa 2.1 patches (for xorg 1.3)
<robr> that's my understanding and the current gfx drivers require a patch to libexa to bump it to 2.2 for 2D excelleration
<lool> Ok, so I should have said xorg server here, not xorg, thanks
<robr> i think 2.2 plus additional changes though
<Mithrandir> robr: correct.  You can force it to work with 2.1, but it then glitches somehow.
<Mithrandir> (unsure exactly how)
<robr> Mithrandir: yes, exactly
<Mithrandir> lool: the MID team is also going to move to hardy, they might lag a bit more, but investing lots of resources to do something which is not a blocker isn't a good use of resources.
<lool> smagoun: (I don't know about the diffs you pasted; I don't even know whether this is enough to move from libexa 2.1 to 2.2 or whether more changes are included between these)
<smagoun> Alright. Since my group needs this, I'll take an action item to test Intel's flavor of exa on top of gutsy.
<lool> Mithrandir: I certainly did not understand that they would move to hardy which is why I'm bringing this up
<smagoun> lool: I do know about the diffs, I looked them up. :) They don't need 2.2 per se, they need those diffs.
<lool> But if they are fine with using hardy, then I'll shut up :)
<davidm> [action] smagoun Since my group needs this, I'll take an action item to test Intel's flavor of exa on top of gutsy.
<MootBot> ACTION received:  smagoun Since my group needs this, I'll take an action item to test Intel's flavor of exa on top of gutsy. 
<smagoun> No, we're not switching to Hardy right now.
<robr> lool: that's the issue we're trying to resolve internally
<Mithrandir> smagoun: I'm not talking about right now, I'm talking about in the short-to-possibly-medium-term.
<lool> robr: Well you're also trying to target the same kernel as hardy does and the same libexa + xorg server as hardy does; but there was consensus no that, so I didn't discuss it
<smagoun> Mithrandir: we're quite nearsighted
<robr> so what i need to know is do you need 2D & 3D acceleration on Gutsy and when will your customers switch to Hardy
<bspencer_> is smagoun's team called "MID team" ?  or is that my team?  I thought smagoun's team might be giving a real customer gutsy for awhile (e.g for the next 4 months)
<bspencer_> so supporting gutsy is important
<smagoun> bspencer_: we're on Gutsy for a couple of months, yes.
<Mithrandir> bspencer_: smagoun's team is the "Canonical MID team", or something like that.  We're still struggling with a good name for them. :-)
<bspencer_> but you guys can wrestle over that
<bfiller> the plan is to stay on Gutsy for our customers until Hardy is stable, then switch
<smagoun> bspencer_: My group is the "mobile business unit"
<kyleN_> we need 2d and 3d acceleration on gutsy
<bfiller> robr: ideally, a solution for gutsy and hardy would be great
<bspencer_> smagoun, MBU -- formerly known as Pepper guys
 * amitk struggles with MID, UMPC, UME, UMC and now MBU every day
<robr> then you will have to take what we have now, i can't see anything changing on Gutsy -- Hardy is when I can see a change
<lool> Too many TLAs
<bspencer_> amitk, don't forget MIC
<Mithrandir> amitk: I thought we killed UMC?
<bfiller> robr: sounds reasonable
<amitk> Mithrandir: good riddance
<smagoun> robr: what is Intel doing to avoid the version mismatch problem in the future? It's happend several times now.
<davidm> OK, we are running out of time... Do we know what we are doing at this point?
<lool> Ok; so point closed; everybody is free to try fixing gutsy 2D/3D support; development tries to target hardy's kernel + xorg server + libexa versions for now; correct?
<davidm> 12 minutes left.
<robr> smagoun: physical torture for those groups that fall out of line
<bfiller> lool: I think that is an appropriate summary
<robr> bfiller / lool : i think that summary is correct
<davidm> OK next topic then?
<lool> Yup; yours
<davidm> [topic] davidm to verify a new time for this meeting. (Complete: Every Thursday at 17:00 UTC is the new standard meeting time.)
<MootBot> New Topic:  davidm to verify a new time for this meeting. (Complete: Every Thursday at 17:00 UTC is the new standard meeting time.) 
<davidm> This is the new time until the next time change I think.
<Mithrandir> sounds splendid to me.
<davidm> [topic] carry on "Discuss process for Gutsy / Hardy transition (bspencer)" for next week
<lool> I guess everybody here knows about the new time or wouldn't be here :-P
<MootBot> New Topic:  carry on "Discuss process for Gutsy / Hardy transition (bspencer)" for next week 
<bspencer_> great for us.  no change is good
<bspencer_> davidm, seems like we have already been doing this
<bspencer_> what was remaining to hash out?
<davidm> Sort of, but we carred it over so I just want to make sure there is nothing else or I'll close it.
<davidm> Anything else on this topic?
<davidm> OK then, next topic
<davidm> [topic] Specs need to be finalized next week (for the 22nd)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Specs need to be finalized next week (for the 22nd) 
<lool> So that's just a reminder that the dead line for the contents of specs before review is the 22nd, that's next week
<tonyespy> what does finalized mean?
<davidm> Anyone that is drafting a spec needs to have it finished next week. 
<lool> I don't know whether the mobile project is affected by the same deadlines though
<davidm> Finished/ Complete
<davidm> We are
<davidm> Mithrandir, from the drafter completing the spec to finialzing it approximately how long does that take?
<davidm> Mithrandir, A day/hours?
<davidm> I've never finalized a spec as yet.
<tonyespy> for the record, i'm on the hook for a blueprint describing usability/functional changes to network-manager for mobile.
<lool> There's no drafter for mobile-hardy-image-creator on my specs, other specs seem to have some drafting already
<tonyespy> since, i'm just starting it....it's doubtful it can be "finalized" by next week
<Mithrandir> davidm: depends on how many specs pile up at once.
<bspencer_> Mithrandir, there was a guy who was going to own System Update stuff.  I don't remember.  Is he going to write a MID-specific spec for that?
<Mithrandir> bspencer_: we had a miscommunication wrt that, so we need to do something clever for that.  We'll be providing the UI for that, but it might be somewhat delayed over the original schedule.
<Mithrandir> davidm: but in general, review + approval takes an hour or two per spec.
<davidm> If I understand the Canonical process if it's not finalized it's not in hardy (I think) Mithrandir is that basically correct?
<bspencer_> ok.  there's some details we discussed wrt updating, app install, website, etc that should be written somewhere
<bspencer_> ( Mithrandir )
<lool> HappyCamp_ubuntu: Does anything needs drafting for mobile-hardy-image-creator?  There's currently no associated wiki page on that
<Mithrandir> davidm: s/Canonical/Ubuntu/, otherwise yes.
<davidm> way running out of time here are we OK to run over?
<Mithrandir> I'm fine running over.
<bspencer_> my topics can wait if needed.  I'm also fine running over
<lool> I'm fine too
<davidm> Does anyone have to leave  in 2 minutes or can we run over?
<tonyespy> nope...
<Don_Johnson> I'll be leaving
<Mithrandir> bspencer_: is it in the notes from the BOF?  If so, they should be fine being picked up.
<davidm> Don_Johnson, I'll post you the URL for Mootbot so you can read the rest of the info
<bspencer_> Mithrandir, probably....   I went through the BoF's for the apps but not that one in particular
<bspencer_> someone took to BoF for the apps and put them in the specs.  whoever did that:  thanks!   I tried to clean them up a little too
<davidm> OK, are we ready to move on?
<bfiller> bspencer_: I did that for the apps. Who owns the system updates spec?
<bfiller> bspencer_: hopefully the info is still in gobby?
<lool> system updates is registered by StevenK, assigned to mvo
<bspencer_> bfiller, thanks a lot. 
<lool> (approver is mobile team, no drafter)
<lool> https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/mobile-software-updates
 * bspencer_ looks around for a volunteer, then pretends he is busy checking email
<bfiller> looks like the spec has some BoF notes from UDS at a very high level
<bspencer_> on volunteer this week.   davidm let's move on
<davidm> K
<davidm> finally a new topic not an old action
<davidm> [topic] input methods: scim or hildon input method? - Kyle
<MootBot> New Topic:  input methods: scim or hildon input method? - Kyle 
<kyleN_> I got some Chinese input method stuff working on a UME target via SCIM with Arne and Lool. Posted to list&wiki. There's also the Hildon Input Method approach, about which I can't find much info. 
<kyleN_> so the question is: has mobile decided which approach to use?
<bspencer_> >  stuff working   
<bspencer_> what does that mean?
<bspencer_> it is elegant and works well?
<smagoun> bspencer_: we wouldn't want it to stand out :)
<kyleN_> it means you can enter Simplified Chinese characters from a USA layout keybaord in mobile
<kyleN_> both hardware keybaord and virtual
<Mithrandir> does there exist an on-screen keyboard plugin for SCIM?
<kyleN_> I think it will work for the other CJK languages but haven' tested
<bspencer_> smagoun, so synical ! :)
<bspencer_> Hildon Input method -- we need to investigate more
<bspencer_> I'm always uncertain whether this has been opened or not
<bspencer_> there's not a lot of web documentation on it
<davidm> has anyone to date looked at the Hildon Input method?
<kyleN_> a canonical fellow who works in Taiwan/Asia indicates scim may be a better option in the short run, at least for the mobile business unit
<kyleN_> because red flag uses it and it works
<smagoun> executive decision: we're using scim
<bspencer_> Taiwan/Asia guys' job is asian input though
<kyleN_> he also indicated hildon IM didn't work too well but I didn't get the details
<bspencer_> he has a tainted perspective :)
<kyleN_> No, his job is bizdev
<bspencer_> ok.
<bfiller> is hildon input method currently included in ume?
<Mithrandir> bfiller: no
<bspencer_> no one has tackled trying to get it to work that I know of
<Mithrandir> I've poked at it a little bit while at UDS + allhands.
<Mithrandir> I know StevenK has poked more at it
<bfiller> sounds like we need an action of compare/contrast scim and h-i-m and include the appropriate one in ume
<davidm> I agree but we need a person that is going to do the action
<kyleN_> with support from lex, I would be willing to own the action
<Mithrandir> I volunteer StevenK, in absentia
<kyleN_> +1 on Mith ;)
<davidm> How about kyleN_ and StevenK own the action
<bfiller> davidm: sounds good
<kyleN_> hmm. that seems diluted
<kyleN_> who really owns it then?
<davidm> Well I think you do since you
<bfiller> maybe StevenK can get h-i-m included in the build so you can test
<davidm> ve done at least one side of it
<davidm> That makes sense to me.
<kyleN_> sounds reasonable
<bfiller> kyleN_: you've already got scim - just need to try h-i-m to see which is better
<davidm> [action] StevenK to get h-i-m included in the build so KyleN_ can test
<MootBot> ACTION received:  StevenK to get h-i-m included in the build so KyleN_ can test 
<kyleN_> i'll note that as a non-chinese speaker it is difficult to evaluate, but c'est la vie
<davidm> understood
<davidm> OK, move on?
<bfiller> kyleN_: perhaps we can get Kevin to help us
<kyleN_> He alrady said scim was preferable
<kyleN_> I'll ping him and ask for details
<bfiller> kyleN_: we will force him to test h-i-m as well :)
<kyleN_> OK
<tonyespy> is it possible to get both installed in an image and make them dynamically switchable?
<davidm> kyleN_, perhaps you can speak with him further to determine why he feels that way?
<davidm> tonyespy, I have no idea.
<kyleN_> davidm: I will email him and broach the subject seriously
<bspencer_> tonyespy, certainly possible
<davidm> kyleN_, thanks
<kyleN_> tony: probably not dynamically, but maybe witha  reboot/new env vars
<bspencer_> tonyespy, or at least have two options for different images.
<davidm> [action] kyleN_ to email Kevin to understand his issues with  h-i-m 
<MootBot> ACTION received:  kyleN_ to email Kevin to understand his issues with  h-i-m  
<davidm> Are we ready to move on?
<kyleN_> yes
<davidm> [topic] i18n: need plan to ensure everything's set up for translation - Kyle
<MootBot> New Topic:  i18n: need plan to ensure everything's set up for translation - Kyle 
<bspencer_> we put a todo item for l10n
<bspencer_> and i18n is not in our plans
<kyleN_> when I change the lang to chinese and generate the appropriate locale and look at the UI
<kyleN_> I see lots of text that is in english, and some that is in chinese
<kyleN_> many settings applets have a mix of chinese and english
<bspencer_> kyleN_, that's because chinese pepole use a lot of english words
<lool> kyleN_: I think some moblin apps are not gettexized
<kyleN_> the marquee has a mix: some of it seems hard coded
<tonyespy> bspencer: seems like a pretty big hole if it's not in your plans...
<kyleN_> many hildon menus are english
<bspencer_> we will gettextize our apps, but not translate them to other languages
<kyleN_> bspencer_: great
<bspencer_> by Feb
<kyleN_> does that include control panel applets et al?
<bspencer_> et al
<kyleN_> bootiful
<kyleN_> so all other apps need to be analyzed
<bspencer_> yes, for the 4:  home (marquee), control panel, browser (already done), media player
<davidm> OK are we ready for the next topic now?
<kyleN_> i propose analyzing an app for i18n is an "offical" requirement, just like hildonizing
<tonyespy> kyleN: where will the results of this "analysis go"?
<tonyespy> a blueprint?
<tonyespy> a doc on the wiki?
<kyleN_> tonyespy: I don't know, but it has to be managed and tracked
<tonyespy> so there needs to be an action item...
<kyleN_> how about adilson?
<tonyespy> to create a document somewhere that tracks status...
<bfiller> davidm: think we need an action (I volunteer Adilison) to go through the apps on launhpad and determined if and how they support i18n
<davidm> Mithrandir, your input here?
<lool> kyleN_: erf :)
<Mithrandir> mobile-hildon-input-methods sounds like the right spec this analysis should go to.
<bfiller> davidm: then based on the findings someone will actually need to do the work of implementeing gettext if not done
<tonyespy> Mithrandir: why, aren't we talking about output?
<tonyespy> ;)
<kyleN_> maybe the apps could be assigned to various folks: divide and conquer
<kyleN_> at least for the analysis phase
<davidm> When does this need to be done by? 
<Mithrandir> tonyespy: inteed, so it should go to the i18n spec.
<tonyespy> the sooner the better....
<kyleN_> bfiller: do you know our schedule requirements?
<Mithrandir> my brain is just trying to explode here.
<tonyespy> Mithrandir: take deep breath...we need ya!
<bfiller> kyleN_: don't know.. but we should analyze asap so we know what work needs to be done
<kyleN_> do we need a real master list of current and proposed apps?
<kyleN_> we want to add some: like drivel (blog)
<bfiller> should start with the set that has been commited for Hardy
<tonyespy> i 2nd that plan...
<lool> Yeah, like bfiller said; the list of apps is supposedly in the specs
<kyleN_> I'm not sure how to find that set exactly, but OK. 
<kyleN_> everytime I press adilson on his list, he says it's not final and is bound to change
<tonyespy> it will...
<bfiller> kyleN_: good point. Anyone have a link to spec for commited apps?
<garyl> kyleN_: Isn't it here?  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileAndEmbedded/UserApplications
<kyleN_> that's adilsons list, but it's currently more of an analysis o whether to include certain apps or other apps
<kyleN_> I think we need the Current list and the Proposed list
<bfiller> do we need an action to write an official spec on what will be included in Hardy?
<tonyespy> why don't we start with the list of apps we have now, and modify/change the list as apps are added/removed???
<kyleN_> sure
<davidm> OK
<tonyespy> [stomach grumbles...]
<bfiller> davidm: can Adilson own the spec since he's done the most work here?
<kyleN_> it would be helpful if it shows whether the app is in the build, whether it's been analyzed for gettext
<lool> tonyespy: We try to commit to implementing specs for a release, so a list of apps would be informal IIUC
<tonyespy> does it need to be a blueprint or can it just be a wiki page?
<davidm> Adilson owns the spec "mobile-applications" already as the drafter and the assignee 
<tonyespy> also, if there are proprietary apps involved, where does that analysis go?
<lool> tonyespy: And at that point, my understanding is that we're not supposed to add any new blueprint; but then it might be ok for the mobile project this time around
<davidm> MID group
<kyleN_> in general, we created a page of "app criteria" and it would be nice if the apps were analyzed by those
<bfiller> davidm: ok, here is a link to the spec https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileAndEmbedded/MobileApplications
<davidm> or is it "MBU"
<davidm> so do we have an addition action item here?
<bfiller> davidm: spec should be updated to include two things: List of commited apps for Hardy, Analysis of "app critieria"
<davidm> we are way over time at the moment
<bspencer_> action bspencer:  I'll organize the prioritze that list and send out for comment
<bspencer_> s/that list/the list of criteria
<kyleN_> bspencer: thx
<bspencer_> some are must-have.  others are nice-to-have
<davidm> [action] mobile-applications spec should be updated to include two things: List of commited apps for Hardy, Analysis of "app critieria
<MootBot> ACTION received:  mobile-applications spec should be updated to include two things: List of commited apps for Hardy, Analysis of "app critieria 
<davidm> OK next topic?
<tonyespy> kernel status/updates + sdio schedule??
<kyleN_> yes
<bfiller> sounds good
<davidm> [topic] Xephyr with GL support and I don't know who posted it.
<MootBot> New Topic:  Xephyr with GL support and I don't know who posted it. 
<bspencer_> We need a Xephyr that supports GL.  I spoke with Bryce about it.  He said the task for including such changes into Hardy were big but that he could create some .debs for us to use assuming he got permission from Collin for the work. 
<bspencer_> in the meanwhile, we will create this too and post on moblin.org
<bspencer_> not sure how long it will take Bryce, but we need it sooner
<bspencer_> (that's all, just FYI)
<davidm> OK thanks
<davidm> [topic] Tagging moblin component versions
<MootBot> New Topic:  Tagging moblin component versions 
<davidm> bspencer_, did you post this one too?
<bspencer_> and FYI:  due to a suggestion from smagoun  we will try to tag our components when a release is cut
<bspencer_> davidm, yes
<lool> bspencer_: "Not sure how long it will take but we need it sooner" I have to quote that!
<davidm> K
<smagoun> bspencer_: thanks
<bspencer_> that's all on that topic too.
<bspencer_> easy!
<davidm> K, I'm out of topics
<lool> "It's due yesterday!"
<kyleN_> phew!
<davidm> Any last items
<davidm> ??
<smagoun> #getmeabeer
<tonyespy> yea, what happened to my topics?
<lool> tonyespy: Where are they on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileAndEmbedded/Meeting/20071115 ?
<bspencer_> topic:  kernel status/updates + sdio schedule     (I'm guessing).  robr  you still around?
<davidm> I don't see any on the page
<tonyespy> nope i screwed up and forgot to press save [sheepish grin]...
<davidm> OK press save now :-)
 * bfiller getting dizzy from hunger :)
<robr> bspencer_: what's that?
<tonyespy> quickly, robR and I discussed having intel discuss kernel/driver status at the weekly mtg
<bspencer_> tonyespy, what is your topic?
<davidm> Still not there
<tonyespy> also, want an idea of where the SDIO work stands...
<davidm> [topic] <tonyespy> quickly, robR and I discussed having intel discuss kernel/driver status at the weekly mtg
<MootBot> New Topic:  <tonyespy> quickly, robR and I discussed having intel discuss kernel/driver status at the weekly mtg 
<tonyespy> davidm: that's cause there was a conflict
<robr> tonyespy: i've posted our status to the mailing list that past two weeks
<ChickenCutlass> tonyespy: ctrl-S
<tonyespy> ok
<robr> tonyespy: if you need more details i'll be happy to discuss
<davidm> Does that bring us to a close?
<tonyespy> i'll offline it for now, but i would like a short briefing during this weekly mtg is possible
<tonyespy> i'm good...
<davidm> Then I will apologize now for allowing this meeting to run so far over.
<tonyespy> one last thing...
<davidm> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 18:39.
<kyleN_> it was all good material
<tonyespy> the lexington team will not be around for the next mtg due to the holiday.
<bfiller> davidm: lots of stuff to figure out
<davidm> True but I really really don't like allowing meetings to go this far over.
<tonyespy> should we re-schedule for wed?
<bfiller> davidm: agreed
<davidm> tonyespy, yes I think so if we can fit it in, since the entire US will be out.
<tonyespy> ok, can you send an email to folks
<tonyespy> ?
<davidm> I will and poll everyone.
<tonyespy> cool.  ttyl
<amitk> robr: those status reports are great.. keep them coming
<davidm> Should have done it at the beginning of this meeting
<robr> amitk: thanks, no problem -- i will try my best. ;-)
<kyleN_> cheers - lunch
<lool> I'm off for dinner too; bon appÃ©tit everybody
<bfiller> see ya
<amitk> bye all
<davidm> later
#ubuntu-mobile 2007-11-16
<corevette> will UME bill available for the nokia products? (770, n800, etc?
<amitk> corevette: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileAndEmbedded/FAQ
<corevette> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ubuntu_Mobile_and_Embedded_Edition ?
<mypapit> ?
<dholbach> good morning
<amitk> lool: Does PPA show a "published" status before it starts building?
<amitk> Because I didn't see those log files yesterday
<lool> amitk: It should, yes; I think everybody in the team received the failed build logs
<lool> amitk: At least StevenK and I did
<amitk> lool: I haven't received the logs
<lool> amitk: I don't see why I have received them then
<Mithrandir> or rather the failed build notification.
<Mithrandir> with an URL to the logs
<lool> Yes
<lool> amitk: I see the linux upload published at https://edge.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-mobile/+archive
<lool> It even built for lpia, which is what we're targetting :)
<lool> It only failed for amd64 and i386
<Mithrandir> you want https://edge.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-mobile/+archive/+builds
<Mithrandir> (view build records)
<amitk> Mithrandir: So I have to keep polling that page? I don't get email?
<amitk> lool: Yes, I noticed the lpia .deb this morning. But last night, the status was "published" and the only files available were orig.tar.gz, diff.gz and the .dsc file.
<Mithrandir> amitk: unsure.  I got a "this build failed" email.
<Mithrandir> amitk: hm, are you in ubuntu-dev or ubuntu-core-dev?
<lool> amitk: Yes, the source was published
<amitk> Mithrandir: I am not core dev...... yet :)
<lool> Me neither, but I got the mail
<Mithrandir> amitk: are you in -dev?
<amitk> Mithrandir: nevermind... I am blind. It is sitting in my spam folder.
<Mithrandir> heh
 * Mithrandir builds the first hardy UME build
<lool> Mithrandir: FYI I'm also building against hardy, but I'm running into tons of unrelated issues with MIC
<lool> It has a lot of duplication and useless hardcoding of gutsy all around the place
<Mithrandir> somehow, I'm not surprised.
<lool> I don't even know why they had to override the gutsy debootstrap script
<Mithrandir> uh, they don't?  They use it if the distro doesn't provide its own, iirc?
<lool> Mithrandir: No, the path is incorrect in MIC
<lool> They check for /usr/lib/debootstrap instead of /usr/share, so their script is always used...
<lool> It was probably true for an older debootstrap
<Mithrandir> at least up and until gutsy, the scripts lived in /usr/lib
<lool> Ok, then it's not the case for hardy
<lool>   * Change /usr/lib/debootstrap to /usr/share/debootstrap. Closes: #430615.
<lool> In the last upload of deboostrap to Debian synced to Ubuntu
<Mithrandir> just make sure to fix it in the hardy m-i-c, then
<lool> I am; it's part of the unrelated issues I'm mentionning
<lool> But if you grep for /usr/lib/debootstrap, you'll see it in no less than 3 places
<Mithrandir> somehow, I'm not surprised.
<lool> Mithrandir: If you're running tip, there was a known breakage at image creation time which was fixed overnight; make sure to pull if you want to generate actual images
<Mithrandir> I refuse to run anything but what's in the archive, except for pure testing purposes.
<lool> k, you should be fine then
<lool> I'm pretty sure there are some target / buildroot mistakes in MIC grah
<lool> Arglg, MIC wasn't calling dh_pysupport with its private module dir, so you could end up with old .pyc files around
<lool> Ah Err http://ppa.launchpad.net hardy/main Packages 404 Not Found
<StevenK> lool: Probably because nothing has been uploaded to it that targets Hardy
<lool> Anybody mind if I upload a dummy hildon-desktop with the same source as in hardy but a lower version number?
<lool> StevenK: Yes, quite certainly; and I have nothing to upload in particular!
<StevenK> I could upload hildon-input-method-framework, but the package is a pile of crap
<StevenK> (but I should probably sleep)
<lool> We also have an interesting problem that I started using hardy version + ~um1 for ppa uploads to gutsy, but the sources are shared across all dists in the pool, so I need to distinguish
<lool> StevenK: Do sleep, I prefer uploading something which will not actually be used
<lool> StevenK: 'night to you
<StevenK> Night!
<lool> amitk: The Samsung FSET will pull linux-lpiacompat by default; this seems broken; should it pull linux-image or linux-image-lpia?
<lool> Or linux-image-lpiacompat?
<lool> (I'm using mccaslin BTW)
<lool> Does someone know how the hosts file is generated?
<lool> With newer MIC, it's copied from the host
<lool> Hmm it seems it always was copied over
<lool> Mithrandir: I don't have a place to push my MIC yet; I'd like to sort the issue preventing the UI to come up on the device before uploading, but it might not be in MIC itself; if you really need one, let me know and I'll put it as a tar somewhere over the WE
<Mithrandir> lool: ok, over the weekend is fine
<LuitvD> is Ubuntu Mobile and Embedded just for UMPC-like devices? or also for QVGA smartphones?
<smagoun> LuitvD: For now it's just for UMPC-like devices 
<smagoun> it requires an x86 CPU
<mjg59> Currently we're only targetting x86 compatible devices with a resolution of 800x480 or higher
<LuitvD> smartphones (ARM core) are x86 too right?
<mjg59> No
<mjg59> They're ARM
<LuitvD> damn :(
 * LuitvD stoopid
<smagoun> if you give us money to work on an ARM port, we'll do the work ;)
<LuitvD> lol, would it be worth more then OpenMoko? 
<LuitvD> (if it would be ARM-compatible?)
<mjg59> The current UI is not suited to low-resolution devices
<LuitvD> right...
<LuitvD> so I should just go with something else?
<amitk> lool: You want linux-image-lpiacompat on the samsungs
<amitk> and linux-image-lpia on the crownbeach
#ubuntu-mobile 2007-11-17
<ixianprobe> I'm curious wheter the UMED edition can run of an tablet pc in it.. Anyone care to comment?
<ixianprobe> in it= in it's current state
<ixianprobe> ops
<ixianprobe> my bad.. the samsung _is_ an tablet.. ;)
<ixianprobe> sorry ;)
<ian_brasil> any chance of changing bug #155927 from wishlist ??
<ubotu> Launchpad bug 155927 in moblin-ui-framework "cannot enable assistive technologies in ubuntu mobile" [Wishlist,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/155927
#ubuntu-mobile 2007-11-18
<ernetas> Hello everybody!!!
<ernetas> :)
<ernetas> I'm just wondering about Ubuntu Mobile.
<ernetas> Will it be possible to run it on mobile phone without touchscreen?
<ernetas> I'm sorry if I scared someone...
<ernetas> :-/
<lool> ernetas: It's not
<lool> ernetas: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileAndEmbedded/FAQ
#ubuntu-mobile 2008-11-10
<BUGabundo_work1> hi people
<BUGabundo_work1> running ubuntu-umpc on a eeePC 901
<BUGabundo_work1> can't seem to make the WiFi start
<BUGabundo_work1> any tips?
<BUGabundo_work1> linux-backporst is installed
<BUGabundo_work1> asac: ping
<BUGabundo_work1> ogra: ping
<BUGabundo_work1> playya: hi!
<BUGabundo_work1> volume keys also don't work! :(
<ogra> BUGabundo_work1, lsmod|grep ath
<ogra> which ath modules are loaded ? 
<ogra> with l-b-m ath5k shold replace ath_pci
<BUGabundo_work1> nothing
<ogra> are you sure there is even an atheros card in it ? 
<ogra> (lspci should tell)
<BUGabundo_work1> what card usualy comes on the 901?
<ogra> no idea
<ogra> i never touched a 901 :) i thought it would be atheros 
<BUGabundo_work1> Ralink 0781
<ogra> oh, thats indeed quite different :)
<BUGabundo_work1> hehehe
<BUGabundo_work1> lots of small quirks with umpc
<BUGabundo_work1> compiz-setting-manager won't let me press its icons (no idea why)
<ogra> https://launchpad.net/~stgraber/+archive
<BUGabundo_work1> the ubuntu installer is a few pixels bigger that the window space available
<ogra> try that driver
 * BUGabundo_work1 tries stuff
<ogra> yes, these are the drawbacks we want to get reports about for jaunty
<BUGabundo_work1> what about sound keys?
<ogra> some of the size issues are known already
<BUGabundo_work1> this laptop is meant to a windows user!
<BUGabundo_work1> not a dev...
<BUGabundo_work1> should I try another OS?
<ogra> but note that UMPC isnt designed for netbooks 
<BUGabundo_work1> eeebuntu, ubuntueee ?
<ogra> it is for UMPCs :)
<BUGabundo_work1> hehe sure ...
<BUGabundo_work1> but I like it!
<ogra> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileTeam/Mobile/HowTo/TurnUMPCDesktopIntoNetbook
<persia> Feh.  The difference between a UMPC and a netbook is fairly trivial.  UMPC ought work on the Eee.
<BUGabundo_work1> it has a great look and its more optimize for this screens
<ogra> that would give you a netbook desktop on a netbook after using -umpc for installing
<ogra> persia, well :)
<persia> But that's just a change of launcher.  It doesn't make the bits complained about work.
<ogra> well, it will fix some of the size related breakage
<ogra> a) it doesnt/cant use compiz
<persia> a) isn't a good thing.
<BUGabundo_work1> PPA added
<persia> Won't fix size-related breakage for the earlier Eees.
<ogra> b) the panle size is smaller, thus you get some extra pixels for the apps
<persia> b) is a good point.  A better interface for app switching would be nice.
<ogra> so many apps that actually break due to some stolen extra pixels will work
<BUGabundo_work1> wait guys!
<BUGabundo_work1> so I can turn the UMPC into a netbook?
<ogra> BUGabundo_work1, i think you need to add a /etc/pm/config file with SUSPEND_MODULES entry for this module so suspend/resume works
<BUGabundo_work1> and it has it advantages?
<persia> Anyway, technically, the early Eees were UMPCs, rather than "netbooks", at least according to Intel's definition of "netbook".
<BUGabundo_work1> thanks ogra... me looks for it
<ogra> it has some advantages 
<ogra> in jaunty we will have a selection option to switch between UMPC and netbook desktops at install
 * BUGabundo_work1 instaling RT deiver source
<ogra> it also has some disadvantages :) 
<persia> RT driver source?  What?
<ogra> i.e. if you prefer compiz effects, netbook desktop wont work with compiz at all
<ogra> persia, dkms package for a driver we dont inclide
<ogra> *nclude
<BUGabundo_work1> for the wifi persia
<persia> It's called "RT"?
<BUGabundo_work1> at least the web cam works
<BUGabundo_work1> rt2860-source
<persia> Ah, ok.  The 2860 makes is less confusing.
<BUGabundo_work1> DKMS running now!
<BUGabundo_work1> not Real Time of course
<ogra> persia, because it's for realtek 0781 cards :)
<BUGabundo_work1> FWIR it doesn't even come on ibex kernel flavours
<ogra> right
<BUGabundo_work1> this DKMS thing is nice!
<ogra> it will be in jauntys default kernel
<persia> Makes sense.  When I hear "RT" I always think "realtime".
<BUGabundo_work1> I know persia
<BUGabundo_work1> that's why I corrected my self
<ogra> dkms has its drawbacks ... but its nice if you have the ressources to compile stuff
<BUGabundo_work1> it was another thread of thought started with ogra
<BUGabundo_work1> examples of drawbacks?
 * ogra wouldnt want dkms on a linux based mobile phone  ;)
 * BUGabundo_work1 hates sudo without autocomplete!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 * BUGabundo_work1 looking for suspend config
<ogra> "sorry, but you cant use your phone for the naxt 24h because there is a driver recompile in progress :P"
<persia> I'm not sure I like DKMS for anything.  Some machines can compile faster, but there's no guard against dirty compilation environments.
<BUGabundo_work1> eheh
<persia> On the other hand, it does save *tons* of coordination on ABI changes.
<ogra> yeah
<BUGabundo_work1> ogra: I've opened /etc/pm/config.d/00sleep_module
<BUGabundo_work1> now what?
<BUGabundo_work1> uncomment? the sleep_module line?
<ogra> SUSPEND_MODULES="<module you want to unload on suspend/reload on resume>"
<ogra> make sure that line is in there
<BUGabundo_work1> I have no idea what those module are, until I debug hibernate!
<ogra> well, i'd assume its called rt2860 or rt28xx or something
<ogra> check with lsmod
<ogra> i'm not even sure it *needs* unloading
<ogra> so check that forst
<ogra> *first
<BUGabundo_work1> rt2860sta ?
 * BUGabundo_work1 rebooting and testing suspend
<BUGabundo_work1> I wonder if it is one of those modules that is making my own laptop not hibernate!
<BUGabundo_work1> s/hibernate/suspend/
<BUGabundo_work1> hibernate works with usw
<ogra> do you use that driver on your laptop ? 
<BUGabundo_work1> usesusp
<BUGabundo_work1> nope
<BUGabundo_work1> intel wifi agn
<BUGabundo_work1> ahhh wifi is now working
<ogra> good
 * BUGabundo_work1 suspending
 * BUGabundo_work1 booting
 * ogra only knew that the eee 1000 uses that driver... had no idea about the 901
<BUGabundo_work1> resume works
 * BUGabundo_work1 hibernating
<ogra> good as well :)
<BUGabundo_work1> need to place that function on the power button
<BUGabundo_work1> btusb_intr_completre: hci0 ... failed to resubmit (2)
<ogra> you can just switch the powermanager to always show the icon
<ogra> thats bluetooth 
<BUGabundo_work1> taking toooooo long to hibernate!
<BUGabundo_work1> it has 2GBs of RAM
<BUGabundo_work1> and 2.5GBs of swap (on 16GiBs SSD)
<ogra> well, it needs to compress all your dirty pages in ram to write them to disk
<ogra> indeed that takes a moment
<BUGabundo_work1> that's why I like uswsusp .... it compresss it, making it fast!
 * BUGabundo_work1 hibernate done! booting
<ogra> and breaks a hell lot of other stuff
<BUGabundo_work1> 4GiBs of RAM to a SATA disk take 15 secs!
<BUGabundo_work1> what does it break?=
<ogra> right, but it breaks your framebuffer devicdes for example 
<BUGabundo_work1> never noticed it !
<ogra> so i.e. usplash might hang your machine on certain HW combos
<BUGabundo_work1> maybe my NVidia driver can handle it! 
<ogra> and there are a lot of other compatibility pobs
<ogra> *probs
<BUGabundo_work1> 16 out of 20 it hibernates just fine on my laptop
<BUGabundo_work1> 2 / 20 it hangs after saving to disk (but boot OK)
<ogra> if it wors for you, you are lucky ...its no option as a general distro solution though
<BUGabundo_work1> 2/ 20 it won't start to hibernate or will kernel panic!
<BUGabundo_work1> I know
<BUGabundo_work1> I'm subscribed to the LP bug where it was discussed!
 * BUGabundo_work1 systems boots fine!
<ogra> and it doent help improving the kernel based suspend indeed
<BUGabundo_work1> no need to had extra lines to pm
<ogra> since it hides the probs so people wont report bugs 
<BUGabundo_work1> I'll have and eye on that when reporting bugs
<BUGabundo_work1> ogra: can the abrowser bottom bar be smaller?
<ogra> you mean midbrowser ? i dont think so
<ogra> i'd recommends firefox on a netbook anyway
<BUGabundo_work1> ok
<BUGabundo_work1> already installed
<ogra> i will likely drop midbrowser from the umpc iage in jaunty and rather package the firefox grab and drag extension 
<ogra> midbrowser is really only good on hildon desktops, on a normal desktop you cant even reach the menu easily
<BUGabundo_work1> quick steps to get netbook look?
<ogra> look at the wikipage i gave you
 * BUGabundo_work1 looking 
<BUGabundo_work1> ogra: how many DPIs should I use?
<BUGabundo_work1> the user/owner likes really tinny ... everything
<ogra> what ever fits you ? 
<BUGabundo_work1> 72 is too small
<ogra> 96 is the default afaik
<BUGabundo_work1> and anything in between, I'm afraid it will break some apps
 * BUGabundo_work1 trying 80 DPIs
<persia> The DPI should be set based on your hardware.  Anything else *will* have font issues.
<BUGabundo_work1> I know
<BUGabundo_work1> that's why I asked
<BUGabundo_work1> maybe I'll just lower the Font size!
<persia> So, to determine DPI, use the pythagorean theorem.  Your dpi is the quotient of the square root of the sum of the squares of your horizontal and vertical resolutions and the size of your screen.
<BUGabundo_work1> 1024*600
<BUGabundo_work1> humm
<persia> so sqrt(1048000+360000)/screen size
<BUGabundo_work1> screen size on inchs?
<BUGabundo_work1> 8.9-9" ?
<persia> Yep.
<persia> dots-per-inch
<BUGabundo_work1> 131,87049389645064630519757706331
<BUGabundo_work1> wayyyyy to big!
<BUGabundo_work1> lol
<persia> So about 132 DPI.
<persia> Anything else will make your fonts look fuzzy.
<persia> Note that there is a GNOME bug that means values other than 96 tend to make GNOME apps look bad.
<BUGabundo_work1> actually 80 DPI (and even 72) are quite readble
<BUGabundo_work1> Ubuntu studio instaled and I still get Human colours all around!
<BUGabundo_work1> .gconf remove.... continuing with netbook personalization
<BUGabundo_work1> ogra: do I really have to turn off the 3D effects??
<ogra> yes
<BUGabundo_work1> it looks so nice with them!
<ogra> the launcher will break if you use compiz
<BUGabundo_work1> bah
<persia> Then don't use the netbook launcher :)
<ogra> right, tats the alternative
<BUGabundo_work1> ill give it a try
<ogra> use a native ubuntu desktop
<StevenK> I quite like the gnome menu
<StevenK> I might install Gnome Do on my Q1
<persia> That's a nice idea.
<ogra> we should probably look into it for jaunty :)
<BUGabundo_work1> I have gnome do too
<BUGabundo_work1> humm 
<BUGabundo_work1> I really am used to gnome panel look
<BUGabundo_work1> will leave for the user to decide!
<BUGabundo_work1> ogra: any tips on how to get the volume keys to work?
<ogra> no idea, sorry, you likely need an .fdi file for them or some such
<BUGabundo_work1> so I better start loggin xrev keys ?
<BUGabundo_work1> ogra should I file separates bugs against EVERY app that can't handle 1024x600 screens?
<ogra> that would help, yes
<ogra> though we're only intrested in the shipped set for now
<BUGabundo_work1> stuff like installer, udpatemanager
<ogra> installer is known
<BUGabundo_work1> gnome sign in window 
<ogra> i wasnt aware u-m had issues
<ogra> "gnome sign in window" ??
<BUGabundo_work1> let me find the package name
<ogra> what sign ? 
<BUGabundo_work1> lol
<BUGabundo_work1> gdmsetup
<BUGabundo_work1> this with netbook looks and ubuntustudio theme!
<BUGabundo_work1> ogra: you know what I miss with this window manager?
<BUGabundo_work1> Super-L + F11
<ogra> what does that do ? 
<BUGabundo_work1> with both metacity and compiz it makes most apps full screen
<BUGabundo_work1> but maximus doesn't! :(
<ogra> why do you need Super-L for that ? 
<BUGabundo_work1> LOL
<ogra> F11 alone should do ... but thats app specific
<BUGabundo_work1> F11 only works on FF, netbeans, and OOo
<ogra> wors only for apps supporting it
<BUGabundo_work1> as far as I know
<BUGabundo_work1> but on metacity and compiz MOST apps will do that!
<BUGabundo_work1> even if not supported!
<BUGabundo_work1> give it a try
<BUGabundo_work1> if can, of course
<BUGabundo_work1> bah... how do I run gnome-applet on the netbook look?
<BUGabundo_work1> I can't add stuff to the top pannel!
<BUGabundo_work1> done!
<BUGabundo_work1> removed window piccker, added gnome-apllet, readded window picket
<BUGabundo_work1> uau 640MBs of RAM in use!
<BUGabundo_work1> this is quite a light version!
<BUGabundo_work1> ogra: can't find a package for gdmsetup!
<BUGabundo_work1> should I file against GDM?
<BUGabundo_work1> ogra: I'm filling them under a tag
<BUGabundo_work1> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bugs?field.tag=small-screen
<persia> BUGabundo_work1, What about the installer doesn't work at 1024x600?
 * persia was fairly sure it worked at 800x600
<BUGabundo_work1> it shops a tiny bit at the bottom
<BUGabundo_work1> and keeps changing it possition
<persia> Do you have a screenshot?  For which question?
<BUGabundo_work1> up -> down -> up etc
<BUGabundo_work1> not now persia
<BUGabundo_work1> already instaled
<persia> OK.  I did my testing at 800x600 (need to kill the lefthand bar to make it work), but didn't see that.  I'll try again.
<BUGabundo_work1> if I manage to load umpc on qemu, I'll try to force the screen to 1024*600
<BUGabundo_work1> but for some reason qemu takes agessss to load umpc
<persia> Did you install kqemu-source?
<BUGabundo_work1> note sure
 * BUGabundo_work1 checking
<BUGabundo_work1> it wasnt!
<BUGabundo_work1> its installing now
<BUGabundo_work1> never saw anything before recomending it!
<persia> That should make qemu just a bit faster :)
<BUGabundo_work1> I'm using -m 1024... that really helps! lol
 * BUGabundo_work1 booting qemu
<ogra> persia, it doesnt work if you have a panel stealing 24px more *and* use compiz
<ogra> compiz has a bad habit of making windows "jump" up and down by the amount of missing pixels if you click them
<persia> ogra, Ah, I haven't tested with compiz (no driver).
<ogra> it looks like the compiz devs try to be overly clever but mess it up completely
<persia> Which question?  The map, or others as well?
<ogra> the main win jumps by about 3-5px 
<ogra> at least with a 48px panel
<persia> For all the questions? (the window should be redrawn for each question).
<ogra> it gets worse if you try i.e. xchat's settings window 
<ogra> it seems to use a min size
<ogra> which seems to be more than 552 vertically
<ogra> might be 550
<ogra> err
<ogra> 555
<persia> There's nothing hardcoded, it's based on the content.  That said, the fix is different if it's some questions vs. every question (including the intro & summary).
<ogra> its not that bad in the installer since it are only a few pixels
<ogra> really bad are the ones where 50 or 100 px are involved
<ogra> since you dont manage to click the buttons
<BUGabundo_work1> fta: is there a way to start FF3 in full screen by default (on netbook) ?
<persia> ogra, For which question?
<ogra> persia, partitioning definatley
<ogra> not sure about the others
<persia> Does it work better if you wipe all the partitions from the target before the install, or does is show for any amount of content?
<ogra> i usually do a guided full wipe install
<ogra> in that it already jumps
<persia> No, if you wipe it *before* you run the installer, so it starts wiped.
<ogra> ah, never tried 
<BUGabundo_work1> lunch
<persia> Right.  I'm trying to understand if it's the content overflowing, and extending the window, or if it's some other element that is pushing it too large.
<ogra> i think its the content
<ogra> but i think its noticeable in other windows as well ... i.e. the user setup
<ogra> but thats only from the top of my head
<persia> OK.  I can't replicate (no driver), so I need to rely on you to tell me which bits don't fit, and by how much, and whether it fits if you have reduced content.
<ogra> i currently dont have a pre-written usb key handy
<ogra> i'll do a test install later
<persia> OK.  No big rush, but it ought be fixed, as that affects Desktop as well.
<persia> For MID, it's probably worth writing a hildonised front-end.
<ogra> well, you rarely have these biz panels on a desktop
<persia> (which should run at 640x480)
<ogra> *big
<ogra> agreed
<ogra> MID needs a *lot* of UI love
<persia> Well, yeah, but it sounds like the problem is an interaction with compiz.  552 vs. 576 isn't that different.
<ogra> its 24 px
<ogra> which can be a lot if you have much content :)
<persia> Well, the map ought be able to work at 552.  The rest is just a matter of understanding the possible content, and making scrollable areas when it's likely to exceed.
<persia> On the other hand, if the keyboard selection question overflows, there's another class of problem that needs sorting.
<ogra> thats only two scroled wins, shouldnt be to hard to resize that
<persia> Shouldn't *need* to be resized, which is the point.  If that needs to be resized, there's something deeper wrong.
<persia> Essentially, the container should fill the screen, and the scrollables sit in the container.  If they don't fit (they are dynamically sized), then the definition of the window is at fault.  Given that the window doesn't contain any hardcoded size, that's a compiz interaction, perhaps with devilspie.
<ogra> devilspie doesnt do anything
<persia> It doesn't ask for maximisation?
<ogra> it just sends the maximize and undecorate commands
<ogra> neither would have that effect 
<ogra> its compiz 
<persia> Right.  If the keyboard question doesn't fit, then there's a problem with sending those commands, and expecting the right result.
<ogra> devilspie does nothing different from the maximize button in your app decoration, so if there is a WM error it has to be compiz itself
<persia> Right, although there's no guarantee that the maximise button in compiz does the same as an external maximize directive.
<ogra> well, its unlikely that it has any influence
<persia> When I say "perhaps with devilspie", it's not that the bug is in devilspie, but that the bug may be especially exposed by devilspie.
<ogra> and it works for other apps without getting jumpy
<ogra> its really compiz trying to be clever where it shouldnt
<persia> Because devilspie is sending WM events externally, whereas just about everything else is interacting with compiz directly.
<persia> It's entirely a bug in compiz.
<persia> For some questions, there might be something one can do in ubiquity to improve things (like location or paritioner), but for other questions, it's all compiz.
<ogra> well, the jumpiness is the breakage here ... 
<ogra> might even be just a plugin i need to disable
<persia> Well, I'd claim that the maximise directive not causing it to be the desired size, causing some overlap, which causes the jumpiness is the issue, but I'm not disagreeing with you, only being a bit more precise.
<ogra> well, the window simply shouldnt jump :)
<persia> Agreed.  Shouldn't be oversize either.
<ogra> well, if it is you should have the opportunity to move t yourself
<persia> maximise means "make it the size of the desktop space", not "make it a litle more than that".
<ogra> but compiz should try to do that for you
 * ian_brasil thinks it is like the whack a rat game at a fair trying to change xchat settings
<ogra> heh
<ogra> yeah, xchat is specifically evil
<persia> ian_brasil, The trick is to pick the background first and quickly, before it freezes, and only try to do this on a multicore machine :)
<ogra> the quick fix is to switch off desktop effects and re-enable them after adjusting ;)
 * persia isn't sure about that reenablement bit, but that ought work.
<persia> Note also that one can hang the system even with desktop effects off from the xchat settings dialog.
<ogra> well, indeed if you want frames around popup windows you should re-renable them :)
<persia> Hrm?  metacity offers that.
<bizkut> os[Linux 2.6.27.4-aao-icc i686] distro[Ubuntu "intrepid" 8.10] cpu[2 x Intel(R) Atom(TM) CPU N270   @ 1.60GHz (GenuineIntel) @ 1.60GHz] mem[Physical: 1.0GB/1.5GB free] disk[Total: 19.2GB/27.9GB free] video[Intel Corporation Mobile 945GME Express Integrated Graphics Controller] sound[HDA-Intel - HDA Intel]
<ogra> persia, devilspie undecorates *all* windows ... if you have popups they have no frame ... compiz makes them drop a shadow so you can distinguish them from the window below
<ogra> though if you use metacity i would recommend using maximus instead of devilspie
<ogra> the prob is that maximus doesnt work with compiz at all
<persia> Ah.  That makes sense.  I'm stuck with metacity (see note above about no drivers), but not excited enough to fiddle with things.
<ogra> devilspie works with both, but would need less generic setiings
<BUGabundo_work1> ogra when I run alt+F2 I can see a frame, and then it disapears!
<ogra> yes, thats how its supposed to be
<BUGabundo_work1> so this is devilspie at work?
<ogra> yep
<BUGabundo_work1> another question:
<BUGabundo_work1> can I use SuperL to access the Go Home??
<ido_> hey
<ido_> anyone around ?
<persia> ido-, lots of people
<ido_> oh. great.
<ido_> was wondering how to make double-click more responsive
<BUGabundo> hi
<BUGabundo> I'm back
<BUGabundo> ogra can you help me make a fdi for the eeepc shorcut buttons?
<ido_> seems that the driver/X is sensitive and detects double clicks only if the exact pixel or so is pressed, which doesnt work well when "double clicking" with a finger, or even the styus
<persia> ido-, I think there's a way to increase the target area for double-click sensitivity in the fdi file.
<persia> ogra, Do you know?
<ido_> how do I reload the fdi's on the fly ?
<ido_> without restarting
<ido_> hal restart doesnt seem to do it..
<persia> I think you need to restart X, although I may be mistaken.
<ido_>  hrm. I added key remapping.. should that require restarting X as well ?
<ido_> I'm restaring X to find out..
<ido_> back.
<ido_> persia, here ?
<persia> Did it work?
<ido_> i restarted and it worked
<ido_> i had a different question though. 
<ido_> well, I feel that ubuntu is much slower then my XP..
<ido_> I haven't installed any services
<ido_> and mostly its idling.
<persia> Well, there's lots of services installed by default.
<persia> Which operation seems slow?
<ido_> however when running firefox and surfing
<ido_> other stuff as well actually.. but most noticible is firefox
<persia> Is that page load speed, or something else?
<ido_> i have tons of extensions on my windows profile, and it works at an ok speed (its also my desktop profile)
<ido_> however on the default settings (no extra extensions whatsoever) on ubuntu, it just runs slow..
<persia> Right.  Is it that page loading is slow, or is it that navigation within a page is slow?
<ido_> I think both
<BUGabundo_work1> persia: any tips to make the eeepc with umpc boot fasterrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr ?
<persia> OK.  For page loading speed, I might suspect mdns (you could tweak /etc/nsswitch.conf to test this).  Not sure about page navigation.
<ido_> scrolling speed is slow as well.
<persia> BUGabundo, Run bootchart, and tweak the stuff that runs slow.  Profile your boot.  Adjust your readahead cache.  Compile your own custom kernel.  That ought improve most of it.
<persia> ido-, Which video drivers?
<BUGabundo_work1> seb123 BANed from running profile on the boot
<BUGabundo_work1> he says it's a REALLY bad idea for users to do that!
<ido_> hrm. sec
<ido_> intel ?
<persia> BUGabundo, Well, it depends.  It can certainly break some things.  It makes other things faster.  It is one of the tools you can use to boot faster, but it may have undesireable side effects.
<persia> ido-, Try turning off the desktop effects.  Doesn't work for all intel graphics chips : depends on which (and I don't remember which are which).
<ido_> actually desktop effects are pretty snappy hee
<ido_> i'm on a Q1u btw.
<ido_> s/hee/here
<persia> Sure.  Desktop effects are snappy, but it's that XP doesn't do GPU effects, so if you're comparing the speed to XP, you might find that scroll speed is affected by using them.
<persia> On the other hand, Desktop effects are pretty :)
<ido_> yes they are.
<ido_> how do i disable them ?
<ido_> i mean, disable them through gnome ?
<persia> I think it's in System...Preferences...Appearance
<ido_> or is it done in the X config ?
<ido_> ugh.
<ido_> no neat effects and as slow as before
<persia> OK.  Turn them back on :)
<persia> You apparently have one of the cards where 2D acceleration doesn't degrade while rendering 3D effects.
<ido_> brr. it reset my compiz settings.
<ido_> bummer
<ido_> btw, how do you handle large unresizable windows ?\
<ido_> such as the compiz settings one
<persia> File bugs asking for them to be redesigned :)  Submitting redesigns improves the chances of adoption, although often they need to go upstream.
<BUGabundo_work1> yeah ido-. I hate when compiz looses my settings!
<BUGabundo_work1> I keep a conf file that I export when I change something, and import back when compiz losses it
<ido_> actually redesign doesnt always fix things persia 
<ido_> you can't ask to redesign every program in the ubuntu repositories afterall
<persia> ido-, Hrm?  When the UI doesn't fit, and it cannot be resized, how but redesign can it be fixed?
<ido_> redesign how large windows are handled..
<persia> Well, GNOME theoretically supports 800x600, so anything that doesn't fit at 800x600 is a bug.  There's not so much of that, really.
<persia> What do you suggest?
<ido_> for exmaple, i made them movable, and I scroll them on my window
<ido_> s/window/screen
<ido_> not the best thing, but at least makes them somewhat usable
<ido_> (for example you can't even exit/press back on the compiz settings window since its too large)
<persia> ido-, By disabling "can't resize/scroll" at a window-manager layer, or by adjusting the application?
<mirak> hello
<mirak> can I use it as a media center desktop ?
#ubuntu-mobile 2008-11-11
<NCommander> hola world
<jan__> hi
<jan__> anybody in here?
<persia> Lots of people, but you'll always get a better response with a specific question.
<jan__> i just installed umpc on my new netbook (gigabyte m912) and i am facing the problem, that my touchped is not recognized
<persia> Which touchpad does that have?
<jan__> i had the same problem with the normal ubuntu but the workaround that works for the normal version does not change anything for umpc
<jan__> it from synaptics
<persia> What was your workaround?
<jan__> adding i8042.noloop=1 in the kernel-line in grub
<jan__> and uninstalling xserver-xorg-input-synaptics
<persia> And the same two steps don't work in UMPC?
<jan__> right
<jan__> the touchpad ist just "dead"
<persia> Hmm.  I'd recommend comparing the x11.driver value for the lshal output for each of the working environment (Desktop) and the non-working environment (UMPC).  I have a feeling that either you're missing a driver you need, or a different driver is grabbing your device (and then not working).
<jan__> thats pretty strange. the support for the touchscreen and the wireless are not working either (same as the normal version)
<jan__> i guess my netbook is just too new
<persia> Well, the drivers are the same in both, although I think the UMPC version has a few more touchscreen drivers enabled by default.
<persia> But yeah, it's probably that you have newer hardware.  You might want to file bugs (one for each piece of affected hardware), and include your lshal, lspci -vvnn, and lsusb -v output.  That might help get them supported.
<jan__> is there any default calibration? the calibrating-program that came with the driver is not working
<jan__> and the touchscreen desperatly needs to be calibrated
<persia> I think the calibration tool only works for touchscreens supported by the evtouch driver right now.
<jan__> right, it doesnt work
<jan__> hm... i think i will check 8.04. i read that the driver/calibration for the touchscreen will work with that version
<jan__> and i hope, that the workaround for the touchpad will work there as well
<BUGabundo1> hi
<BUGabundo1> can keytouch be used to capture the keycodes of extra shortcuts on an eeepc?
<BUGabundo1> 59 ppl in the room! uau
<thebishop> hello
<thebishop> i'm interested in the Gigabyte M528, but it has limited storage.  Are there any other reasonably priced MIDs on the horizon with more storage or a standard SD slot?
#ubuntu-mobile 2008-11-12
<ian_brasil_> mal elemento
<ian_brasil_> tu eh muito doido
<ian_brasil_> como o carol vai abrir um .tar.gz tu mal elemento
<ian_brasil_> tem que ser um .zip
<playya> ok ...
<\sh> moins :)
<\sh> could someone check http://launchpadlibrarian.net/19592509/buildlog_ubuntu-jaunty-lpia.open-cobol_1.0-1ubuntu2_FAILEDTOBUILD.txt.gz why this FTBFS but not on i386? :)
<lairsdragon> HI I am using the Ubuntu MID Desktop on a Via Board for a CarPC (i386 Architecture) but some components forces the  xserverto  restart
<lairsdragon> for example if I start the  Battery Power applet or if I start the screen resolution changer 
<persia> lairsdragon: that's unfortunately because hildon-desktop doesn't trap segfaults, so if anything crashes, it kills hildon-desktop, and when hildon-desktop exists, the X session exists (as it's just hildon-desktop keeping it open), and then restarts.
<persia> Dunno why that happens for the specific programs you mention : please file a bug against each of them.
<davidm_> ogra, you about?
<ogra> with half an eye
<davidm> Ah thanks, I've lost 1/2 of my Internet, must be some routing problem, I can't reach email and my phones are all dead
<davidm> but I can reach here.
<davidm> and kernel.org
<davidm> so I'm at least part way up.
<ogra> i have a massive lag on the canonical server 
<ogra> s/have/had/
<davidm> There are a lot of web sites I can't reach
<davidm> lwn.net, http://linuxdevices.com/ all time out
<davidm> very odd
<ogra> i get linuxdevices
<ogra> lwn fine as well
<ogra> davidm, if you get through again http://lwn.net/Articles/306691/
<davidm> OK now phones are back as is lwn and the rest
<ogra> i met jake all the time in the smokers corner, he's a cool guy
#ubuntu-mobile 2008-11-13
<bspencer> davidm: 
<davidm> hello bspencer 
<bspencer> wow, what responsiveness
<bspencer> what's your timezone?
<bspencer> I think we're chatting tom. in some mtg.  I saw a few canonical names on the list I didn't know
<bspencer> thought you could introduce me
<davidm> I'n in central TZ US (texas)
<bspencer> maria and gerry
<davidm> Happy to try to
<bspencer> are they on this list?
<davidm> Which Maria?
<davidm> Gerry is our Marketing gent
<bspencer> Bonn...something
<bspencer> ok.  Gerry -- won't be asking hard questions
<bspencer> next...
<bspencer> ;)
<davidm> Ah, Maria was the Intel point of contact, I think she is handing off to a new person.
<bspencer> ok.  do you happen to know what engineering you might have attending?
<bspencer> i was going to chat a little with them beforehand to see if I could make sure I have their 2c ahead of time
<davidm> Kevin Krafthefer I think will be on the call
<davidm> and I might be for part of it.
<bspencer> new guy to canonical?
<davidm> Yes
<davidm> works for Matt Zimmerman  (as I do) 
<bspencer> ok.  I'll ping him.
<davidm> kind of technical busdev sort of 
<davidm> krafty is his nick
<bspencer> ok.  not on #ubuntu
<davidm> I have questions on M v2 as it were
<davidm> I'm getting conflicting info
<bspencer> want to chat here or wait for tom?
<bspencer> ready
<davidm> What ever works, I'm here for the next few minutes, I'm waiting for a call back from StevenK 
<bspencer> what Q's do you have?
<lool> morning
<lool> http://www.umpcportal.com/2008/11/arm-and-ubuntu-to-join-forces-in-the-netbook-world
<ogra> hoooray !!
<\sh> ogra: hey ... can you lend me your eyes and hands for a moment?  (check this log: http://launchpadlibrarian.net/19592509/buildlog_ubuntu-jaunty-lpia.open-cobol_1.0-1ubuntu2_FAILEDTOBUILD.txt.gz)
<ogra> \sh, after the mobile meeting
<\sh> ogra: great...because I'm unable to see why it's happening (i386 just compiled)
<ogra> \sh, hm
<ogra> lpia is i686 
<\sh> ogra: yepp...
<ogra> i wonder if thats the reason for the error
<\sh> ogra: that's why I don't see the error ,-)
<\sh> i386 / i686 should just be fine..amd64 is also fine
<\sh> ogra: looks like that I need to reactivate my lpia schroot ...
<ogra> there is no build-dep that would have any lpia specific mods 
<\sh> ogra: correct ;)
<ogra> so my best guess is 586 vs 686
<\sh> ogra: hmmm...
<ogra> have you comparef the compiler options that get set ?
<\sh> yepp..are the same
<\sh> on i386 and lpia...
<ogra> well then only 586 vs 686 is left
<\sh> well...if it would FTBFS on powerpc...i would be happier
<ogra> its jaunty ... you still have 5 months to fix it ;)
<\sh> ogra: /dcc send me_mobile_devices_to_code_cobol_on ,-> i think this packages nobody will use on lpia archs anyway
<ogra> pfft, you ignore all the netbook-mainframe programmers ? 
<ogra> :)
<\sh> ogra: oh damn...do 80year old cobol coders buy netbooks these days? ,->
<ogra> if the keyboards arent to tiny to see the keys for them ... who knows :)
<ian_brasil> what does DIF mean which happens in late january?
<ogra> debian import freeze
<ogra> auto syncing from debian gets stopped 
<ian_brasil> ok thx
<persia> There's still a lot of importing that happens after that, but it mostly avoids core infrastructure bits or widely used libraries.
<ogra> syncing still goes on, just not automatically
 * lool waves 'night
#ubuntu-mobile 2008-11-14
<SirGlacious> hello, I'm planning a car-computer, does ubuntu-umpc is suitable for this task?  has anyone tried it?
<persia> There are a few people who have reported trying both ubuntu-mid and ubuntu-umpc for carputers.
<persia> Consensus seems to be that there are issues with all of the available GPS applications.
<persia> If you don't need GPS that much, the choice comes down to whether you want an app-switcher and menu, or just one app at a time and a grid interface.
<persia> In either case, there's a fair bit of customisation required to make it work well for a carpc.
<SirGlacious> persia: do you know what kind of issues, I have a lilliput touch screen, are there drivers available on the distro?
<persia> That I don't know.  There's a live USB image though, so it's safe to try the basics without installing, if you can boot off USB.
<persia> I believe that only devices supported by the "evtouch" driver work out of the box, and that you may need to fuss around a bit to get anything else working, but don't know which category is correct for that device.
<SirGlacious> persia: thanks, I would like to help improve umpc for this task, maybe posting errors, or solutions, it's there a place to post?
<persia> launchpad.net/ubuntu/+filebug
<persia> Actually, it's almost always better to file bugs against specific packages, using something like ubuntu-bug, but that's *if* you know which package is affected.
<persia> If you get a good patch, and want someone to take a look, mention it here, and if someone's around, they'll look.
<SirGlacious> ok, thanks
<lool> morning
<crevette> salut lool 
#ubuntu-mobile 2008-11-15
<Edug> hy !!
<sereja81> hi
<Edug> what is the topic of this room
<Edug> ?Â¿
<ogra> Edug, /topic tells you :)
<Edug> the tocpic is : Ubuntu for mobilie phone ?Â¿ 
<persia> No, for mobile computers.
<ogra> where does it say phone ? 
<Edug> for laptops
<persia> 7" laptops, UMPCs, handhelds, that sort of thing.
<Edug> a okok
<persia> Bigger laptops are probably more suited for #ubuntu
<persia> As far as I know, Ubuntu only runs on two mobile phones, and doesn't work like a phone properly on either one.
<Edug> its posible to put Ubuntu on a PDA
<Edug> ?Â¿?Â¿
<persia> If the PDA has an x86 or powerpc processor, yes.  If the PDA has an ARM processor, in a few weeks.  If the PDA has a MIPS or SH processor, launchpad doesn't support those.
<Edug> OK
<Edug> One question ?Â¿
<ogra> heh, few weeks is pretty optimistic :)
 * persia suspects there are more than one, but waits for it to be asked
<ogra> "next release" :)
<persia> ogra, Well, alpha.
<ogra> i dont think we care about alphas atm
<ogra> for arm at least
<persia> Hunh?  I've been following #ubuntu-arm, and hadn't heard anything about that.
<Edug> Because not all the laptops an desktop pc dosen't work with ubuntu
<ogra> david said he's happy if we have something basic but doesnt care about aplhas yet
<ogra> Edug, about 10 million users think differently i'd say
<persia> Edug, Hrm?  What do you mean?
<persia> Edug, I know some hardware doesn't work, but I suspect that's not your question.
<Edug> because you con bay a desktop pc with widows and you cant bay a desktop pc with ubuntu ?Â¿ 
<persia> Yes you can.  Lots of companies sell them.
<Edug> the most coputers works with windows wahy ?Â¿ 
<Edug> Linux is more chiper than Windows
<Edug> I think Ubuntu is not bat 
<persia> Oh, yeah.  That's just a matter of what people are buying.  You can always replace it later.
<Edug> but Ubuntu dosen't work very well
<persia> Hrm?  Which part doesn't work?
<Edug> Likes wifi
<Edug> Llikes gafic card
<persia> Both of those work for me.  If they aren't working for you, I'd suggest filing a bug with details of your exact hardware.
<NCommander> persia, context switched.
<persia> Right.
<persia> So on making lpia les special.
<persia> Did I ever give you that package list?
<NCommander> Nope
<persia> Ah.  Right.
<persia> Do you want it right now, or can I give it to you in ~24 hours?
<persia> (or better, put it on the wiki in about that time)
<NCommander> persia, I was going to open an LP bug with tasks :-)
<persia> I don't like doing that as long as there's still the can't unsubscribe bug.
<NCommander> can't unsubscribe?
<persia> There's a bug in LP that implicit subscribers can never unsubscribe from a bug, even if it doesn't apply to their package.
<persia> As a result, opening a bug with lots of tasks tends to send *every* comment to lots of people that don't care.
<persia> This tends to annoy them.
<NCommander> ah I see
<NCommander> How long is this list?
<persia> 50-60 packages.
<NCommander> O_o;
<NCommander> Damn
<persia> Yeah.
<NCommander> If you email me the list, I'll wikify it
<persia> Anyway, I'll get it on the wiki within 24 hours.
<persia> Just as easy for me to put it on the wiki as mail it.  I don't have a current one, and need to regenerate.
<persia> (and want to stop being on IRC for about 15 hours)
<NCommander> ah
<NCommander> its just I won't be on much tommorow
<persia> Well, I'll get you ten quick ones now then.  Hold up.
<persia> cairo-clock, claws-mail, contacts, dates, fbreader, galculator, liferea
<persia> Well, 7, because I'm lazy right now.
<persia> Those are all likely candidates, based on package history and changelogs.
<persia> One or more might be fine, but I suspect they're special.
<persia> To do it right, I need to refresh my local package cache for that class of packages, unpack them, and grep in debian/rules, but that takes time.
<NCommander> persia, I would have just checked hildons rdepends on lpia and regular :-)
<persia> Not every lpia-specific patch has to do with hildon.  Some are considerably more awkward.
<NCommander> grepping claws-mail for lpia shows nothing ...
<persia> There were a few cases where a .desktop file would be installed iff it was built on lpia.  I think those all got excised for intrepid.
<persia> Ah, good.  That one got cleaned up then.
<persia> My candidates cache is from somewhere mid-intrepid, which is part of why I wanted to give you the list later.
<NCommander> sure, no issue
<persia> Anyway, good luck.  Be back in a while.
<NCommander> persia, thanks, cya
<charlespax> During Jaunty development will there be daily builds of ubuntu-umpc?
<persia> Once it's stable enough to make sense, yes.
<charlespax> Very good. thanks.
<NCommander> persia, do you mind reviewing my changeset for galculator. It's properly split and I get the debs correct, but I'd like just a second eyes to look it over quickly
<persia> NCommander, I really want to be asleep, and intend to depart again as soon as I'm done with the current argument.  Subscribe me to the bug, and I'll look at it when I'm properly back.
<NCommander> persia, what bug?
<persia> Ah.  pastebin it then
<persia> My argument doesn't seem to be dying.
<NCommander> persia, http://pastebin.ca/1257082
<NCommander> er
<NCommander> right, you can't access pastebin.ca
<NCommander> persia, http://paste.ubuntu.com/72471/
<persia> Looks sane to me.
<NCommander> wow
<NCommander> When you run a hildonized package in a non-hildon environment
<NCommander> it acts weird
<NCommander> persia, that, and the icon was MIA :-/
<ogra> what did you expect ? 
<NCommander> ogra, I had no expectations :-)
<ogra> heh
<NCommander> I dunno if the icon is missing because of my modifications
<NCommander> Or because I don't have Hildon/MID/etc. installed
<NCommander> any ideas ogra & persia 
<ogra> whats the Icon lne in the .desktop file ?
<persia> Probably because you're not running in hildon.  Things are a little different there.
<NCommander> ogra, there is a difference in the mobile package to try and load a different icon
<NCommander> (which obviously doesn't exist <g>)
<persia> NCommander, Check debian/install?  Maybe that needs replication of some sort?
 * NCommander is trying to find the mid seed so he can keep a branch with the -mobile changes
<ogra> well, hildon isnt as close to xdg standard as it should
<NCommander> persia, the only change in the original rules was the sed line
<ogra> so if you use the app in a normal xdg compliant desktop it might not work as expected
<persia> NCommander, Yes, but remember, you're doing a package split.
<NCommander> persia, I make install twice into both packages
<NCommander> The file its referencing isn't in this source package
<persia> Ah.  Probably some theme package then.
<NCommander> Seems so
<NCommander> no objections to uploading?
 * NCommander is keeping a branch of the seeds package for everything I touch, so once thats merged, mobile is good to go
<persia> Best if you could test against MID in a KVM, but no clear objections.
<NCommander> I could stage the changes in a PPA
 * NCommander notes get getting MID going in a PPA is a PITA
<NCommander> s/PPA/QEMU\/KVM/g
<ogra> 5 months to fix it
<persia> NCommander, The images should just boot in KVM/QEMU
<persia> There's a tool to convert for vbox, which which several people have reported success.
 * NCommander uploads to his PPA
<NCommander> probably easier that way then any other
<persia> Just upload it.
<persia> Or if you want to test, build it in sbuild/pbuilder/whatever and ssh it to a VM.
<NCommander> I have trouble with that last bit
<persia> Best is to build natively on a target device, but that requires rare HW.
<persia> NCommander, What trouble?
<NCommander> getting network to work
<persia> In qemu/kvm?
<NCommander> I just found my old lpia image
<NCommander> This will work
<NCommander> yeah
<persia> Should just work by default.
<NCommander> I usually have to pass some voodoo command line switchs to get it working
<NCommander> davidm, ping
<davidm> Hello
<NCommander> davidm, am I correct in believing your the person in charge of ubuntu-mobile/mid? (your the team owner)
<davidm> Indeed I am
<NCommander> davidm, to save you the backscroll, I'm working to split out the lpia specific hacks into proper packages (i.e., galacalcator to gacalculator-mobile)
<NCommander> So that mid could be installed on a non-lpia architecture
<NCommander> Basically, where do you want the bazaar branch w/ the seed changes?
<davidm> NCommander, that would be a question best asked of lool, or StevenK.  lool is the tech lead of the project, StevenK does a lot of work on the seeds
<davidm> I'm happy to get you an answer but it will take a bit of time lool is not reachable today and StevenK is likely sleeping at this time.
<NCommander> davidm, do issues with me uploading before the seed changes are made?
<davidm> NCommander, perhaps you should make your own branch of the seed, and propose for merging into lp:~ubuntu-core-dev/ubuntu-seeds/mobile.Jaunty?
<NCommander> have and done already <g>
<NCommander> davidm, the only question left is should the split package come out as -mobile, or -mid?
 * NCommander notes he feels a little confused between the two
<davidm> -mid is screens < 6" and have touch screen with it, -mobile >6" may or may not have touch screen
 * NCommander is less confused but still seeks an answer
<davidm> Also "MID" is hildonised, mobile is not
<NCommander> so Hildon modifications should end up in package-mid and not package-mobile?
<davidm> Correct
<NCommander> davidm,  This package is specifically configured and designed for Ubuntu Mobile Internet Devices 
<NCommander>  and will not functional properly on a normal Ubuntu Desktop installation.
<NCommander> That's what I'll add to the bottom of the description
<davidm> Ok
<ogra> gacalculator-mobile ? 
<ogra> why not -hildon 
<ogra> if thats the differentiation criteria
<NCommander> Not all packages that different on lpia differ because of hildon
<NCommander> I'd perfer a consistant naming scheme between packages that are split between normal and mobile/mid
<ogra> well
<ogra> -umpc does definately not change any packages
<ogra> but is a -mobile flavour
<NCommander> Well, the current suggestion is -mid
<NCommander> But ...
<NCommander> :-P
<NCommander> if you think its a bad idea
<ogra> well, then use -mid as suffix
<ogra> i think generalizing on -mobile is bad
<NCommander> fair enough
<NCommander> ogra, unless you think we should use -hildon?
<ogra> thats a team name and describes the set of images
<ogra> we might have -netbook at some point for example
<davidm> and likely will
<ogra> so -mid, -umpc and -netbook would fal under the general term "mobile"
<NCommander> I guess the question is if we split a package, do we split it w.r.t to the flavor it belongs to, or the feature(s) we change/enable on that flavor
<ogra> but only -mid requires the hildonization
 * ogra would go for features
<NCommander> so then -hildon?
<ogra> well, you said there is more than hildon
<NCommander> On some
 * ogra doesnt know many
<NCommander> This specific package is just changes for hildon
<ogra> i think its likely the majority
<NCommander> so you perfer -mid over -hildon?
<ogra> and imho the source should just spit out a hildonized version where possible
<NCommander> The source package?
<ogra> i personally prefer -hildon
<ogra> to describe the patchset
<ogra> yeah, one sourcepackage 
<ogra> two binaries
<NCommander> right
<NCommander> that's what we're doing :-)
<NCommander> There is one change beside hildon
<ogra> one applies the hildonization and spits out the -hildon package
<NCommander> sed -i -e 's/Name=Galculator/Name=Calculator/'
<ogra> the other stays as is
<NCommander> Fair enough
<NCommander> so -hildon
 * ogra wanders off for some TV
<NCommander> uploaded
<charlespax> I flashed the ubuntu-8.10-umpc-i386.img image to a usb disk. Is that more like a regular install or a live CD? I want to know if I do a 'sudo apt-get update; sudo apt-get dist-upgrade', will the updates be permanent? 
<NCommander> Another hildon package bites the dust
<NCommander> well, lpia specific
<persia> charlespax: The 8.10 images are like a liveCD
#ubuntu-mobile 2008-11-16
<NCommander> persia, good $TIME
<persia> Just settling in.  You have a pastebin?
<NCommander> persia, a pastebin?
 * NCommander is regoing through every package, and the only ones left so far are cario-clock (in progress), and fbreader which we talked about earlier
<NCommander> evience and bluez-gnome have hildon modifications, but when they were merged in Intrepid, people dropped their patches :-/
<persia> Not precisely.  I'm not sure about evince, but the patch for bluez-gnome was cleaned up, made non-arch-specific, tested for MID, UMPC, and Desktop (on a 30" screen even), and sent upstream for review.
<NCommander> Right I saw that
 * NCommander was expecting a lot more packages in mid with lpia tweaks ...
<persia> So how can I help you?
<persia> I thought there were bunches, but you think there aren't?
<NCommander> I opened the mid seed
<NCommander> And I simply downloaded everything that wasn't a library
<persia> heh.  That's the first part of my script :)
<NCommander> Ah, so there is more
<NCommander> But at least this is enough to get ubuntu-mid usable as a baseline on non-lpia
 * NCommander sees if his packages have left NEW yet
<NCommander> nope
<persia> Well, my script is to pull the non-libraries from the gutsy, hardy, and intrepid seeds (not yet updated for jaunty), unpack, and grep lpia in all occurrances of debian/rules.
<NCommander> oooh handy
<NCommander> That's a great way to find lpia
<persia> They will probably be flushed on Monday.  You still want me to download and process the script tonight?
<NCommander> But sometimes the LPIA modifications are just in control
<persia> Well, my script isn't perfect, but also running find against debian/control with the relevant exec isn't terribly complicated :)
<NCommander> Its up to you, I know which ones I have already touched, so its just a matter of doing it
<persia> Probably get some false positives for arch-specific packages, but those are quick to review.
<NCommander> I don't think lpia has any arch specific packages
<NCommander> aside from its kernel
<persia> OK.  I'll run it and we'll see.  Since it's source-based, and you've already fixed a bunch of sources, those oughtn't show up.
<NCommander> Oh, very cool
<persia> xserver-xorg.input-synaptics is an example of an arch-specific package built on lpia.
<NCommander> So that one we just need to change to be not arch-all, right?
<NCommander> er arch lpia
<persia> No.  We want it on lpia.
<persia> That's one of the false positives I referenced when talking about adding debian/control checking to the script.
<persia> Otherwise my touchpad doesn't work, which would annoy me.
<persia> Remember that arch-specific packages can cover multiple architectures.
<persia> For instance, wine is i386, amd64, and lpia.  It doesn't work on other arches (and probably can't easily work)
<persia> Well, presumably, it's possible to branch wine to work on alpha, ia64, and powerpc, if people have windows binaries for those architectures, but it's probably not worth it.
<NCommander> ACtually, I use wine to cross-compile Windows binaries to PowerPC
<NCommander> :-)
<persia> Well, yes, but you're clearly mad, so it's not relevant for the general use case :)
<NCommander> Me and my multiple personalities disagree withy ou!
<persia> All of them?  No internal dissent on this issue?  Everyone agree's you're perfectly balanced?
<NCommander> Yes :-)
<NCommander> Well
<persia> Well, I'm glad some good could come of this then :)
<NCommander> configure thinks my build environment isn't sane :-P
<NCommander> I dunno if I should laugh or cry about that
<persia> laughing is preferred.  Pavlovian reinforcement and all that.
<NCommander> persia, cario-clock split out
 * NCommander finds it funny/sad every hildon package is CDBS based
<persia> Actually, most of them aren't.
<persia> They use CDBS for simple-patchsys, but don't include debhelper.mk.
<persia> It's a convention adopted for historical reasons within MID, now mostly irrelevant (but not worth adjusting)
<NCommander> persia, I mean most the applications that use hildon are CDBS
<NCommander> Every once I've split out was  CDBS based package
<persia> Odd.  Most of the ones I remember looking at used debhelper 5 and CDBS's simple-patchsys.
<persia> Then again, I like CDBS, so maybe I just didn't notice much.
<NCommander> persia, strange. cario-clock has a hildon patch, but the resulting binaries don't end up linked against hildon O__o;
<persia> I suspect it's not actually a hildon patch.
<persia> The term "hildon patch" and the use of "--enable-hildon" ended up getting used for a fair number of non-hildon-specific things.
<NCommander> "--enable-hildon" if lpia
<NCommander> But the resulting binaries were identical ....
<persia> Yeah.  That doesn't mean what you think it means.
<persia> For the same historical reasons previously mentioned "--enable-hildon" was generally used for making things MID friendly, even when it wasn't actually using hildon.
<NCommander> fair enough
<NCommander> mcasadevall@blacksteel:~/src/lpia/cairo-clock-0.3.3/debian$ diff cairo-clock cairo-clock-hildon
<NCommander> Common subdirectories: cairo-clock/DEBIAN and cairo-clock-hildon/DEBIAN
<NCommander> Common subdirectories: cairo-clock/usr and cairo-clock-hildon/usr
<NCommander> O_o;
<NCommander> (I know the cairo-clock-hildon folder is properly getting build w/ --enable-hildon)
<NCommander> any ideas?
<persia> I probably broke it when I tried to merge in the collection of outstanding changes I found laying about.
<persia> Have you checked what --enable-hildon actually does?
<NCommander> It turns on -DHILDON
<NCommander> scratch that
<persia> And what does that do?
<NCommander> It wasn't getting turned on
<NCommander> Hrm
 * NCommander is looking at the autotools magic
<NCommander> Ok
<NCommander> The automagic is broken
<NCommander> :-P
<persia> (You are in a maze of twisty passages, all alike)
<NCommander> xyzzy
 * NCommander works out the necessary voodoo to fix
<NCommander> persia, woo, fixed
<persia> Thanks.  That's my mistake, and as you can see from the changelog, not exactly recent.
<NCommander> Its fine
<NCommander> It was easily to overlook, if I didn't actually use ldd to check the dependencies, I would have missed it myself
<persia> All I did was run the result in MID.  Since it looked OK, I went with it.
 * NCommander kicks his MID image
<NCommander> We need jaunty based ones so I don't need to recompile on intrepid
<persia> Well, we're getting close to Alpha 1, which is when the first test images start, usually.
<persia> If you want you could try debian-cd, but I'm going to wait to see what happens, personally.
<NCommander> We need to get an updated ubuntu-mid metapackage
<NCommander> Or the image will be miserably broken
<NCommander> persia, I can't test cairo clock, its complaining I don't have an accelerated envionment :-
<persia> Yeah, well.  I used to have one of those.
<NCommander> I'm just going to confirm everything links together and upload and hope for the best
<persia> The drivers died early in the intrepid cycle, and my hardware requires binary blobs, for which the vendor has yet to produce a working driver for Intrepid.
<NCommander> Could not load "/usr/share/cairo-clock/glade/cairo-clock-ume.glade"!
<NCommander> Maybe cairo-clock-hildon should depend on whatever in MID provides that
<persia> That's not a video driver issue.
<NCommander> No, regular cairo clock doesn't work
<NCommander> "This clock will not function properly without compiz"
<persia> Anything under /usr/share/cairo-clock/ should be provided by cairo-clock.  You might have to change a pathname?
 * NCommander takes a closer look
<NCommander> Oh, I see
<NCommander> cairo-clock-ume.glade is provided, but isn't installed :-P
<NCommander> (no one caught that because the hildon patch didn't actually apply
<StevenK> NCommander: I've got a (painful) patch for contacts, so no touching.
<NCommander> StevenK, too late
<StevenK> Sigh
<NCommander> StevenK, what does your patch do?
<StevenK> Adds a contacts-hildon package
<NCommander> it wasn't that painful ...
<StevenK> Sure it was, it involved CDBS
<NCommander> No ...
<NCommander> Let me see the rules you came up w/ and what I came up with
<NCommander> StevenK, if you want to can clear the package in NEW, and then accept the merge for the seed changes :-)
<StevenK> http://paste.ubuntu.com/72820/
<NCommander> http://pastebin.ca/1257568
<NCommander> I think our patches are nearly identical
<StevenK> Do you add -DMAEMO_CHANGES into the autoconfage?
 * persia is suddenly glad that perl is not the default language for debian/rules
<StevenK> If you don't, then it isn't hildonized
<NCommander> StevenK, I added it via make
<NCommander>         $(MAKE) -C $(CURDIR)/debian/build-hildon CFLAGS='-g -O2 -g -Wall -O2 -DMAEMO_CHANGES'
 * NCommander saved himself some trouble
<NCommander> I tested it on a MID image to confirm my changes work and checked w/ ldd
<StevenK> Personally, I prefer doing it via autoconf
<StevenK> It was a two-line patch to something we're patching anyway
<NCommander> StevenK, if you want to clobber my upload, go ahead
<StevenK> That involves caring. And I finished this work like a week ago, but just never had time to grab persia or someone else and say "Is this crack?"
<persia> It's pre-DIF.  We like crack.
<persia> Well, decent quality crack at least.  A bad cut is bad no matter how you look at it.
<NCommander> StevenK, sorry about that. I didn't know :-/
<persia> Anyway, which is the better patch?
<persia> If the better patch is StevenK's, it ought be pushed anyway.
<NCommander> Mine didn't require the recreation of an autotools fudge
<persia> History is just a changelog entry.
<NCommander> And autotools patches are a headache either way
<persia> Isn't there already an autoconf patch?
<NCommander> persia, it patches configure directly
<NCommander> Not extactly the best patch ever created
<NCommander> Oh
<NCommander> scratch that
<NCommander> Its just one giant patch with hildon, autotools, and autoreconf mixed together
 * NCommander blecks
 * persia restarts the source pull script, realising that the apt-cache is kinda out-of-date
<NCommander> persia, as soon as I finish testing cairo clock, I'll upload
 * NCommander is just waiting on pbuilder ATM
<NCommander> Is it by design we include OOo on mid images?
 * persia enjoys the power of &.  Changes download speed from the archive by a factor of about 10.
<persia> NCommander, It's a side effect of how treb works.  If you know a way to provide an OOo reader without OOo, it would be interesting.
<NCommander> Ah
<NCommander> We need something the equivalent of of Word Reader for Windows
<persia> Well, sorta, but yes.
<persia> treb has roughly the right interface, but it's not exactly implemented in a space-efficient way.
<NCommander> It would require going into treb's source and figuring out what fat to remove
<NCommander> Ewww :-P
<persia> It's just debian/control :)
<NCommander> OOo 2.x is a giant blob of fat
<NCommander> It would actually require modifications to the beast
<persia> Yep.
<persia> OK.  Local mirror of seeded packages updated.  Time for find.
<ogra> we might be able to just steal mojo's right away
 * NCommander thinks we should relax treb to a recommendation :-P
<NCommander> Just so I can install it on something that doesn't have a gigabyte free
<ogra> oh, echan :)
<NCommander> persia, ok, cairo clock works on a MID image
<NCommander> (woo!)
<ogra> define "works" 
<ogra> does the munite hand actually move ? 
<NCommander> The preferences panel is properly hildonized
 * ogra has never seen cairo clock actually work
<NCommander> YOu need acceleration for it to actually work it seems
<ogra> well, i have accelleration on the Q1 
<ogra> but that doesnt make the hands move :)
<persia> And it still doesn't work?  Hrm.
<NCommander> It works on my desktop
<ogra> right, only talking abut mobile 
<NCommander> ogra, the hildon patch wasn't applied
<NCommander> Due to a bug in the autotools script
<ogra> hmm, bt it starts fine on the hildon desktop 
<ogra> i would expect it to not even start 
<NCommander> Well
<NCommander> It appears
<NCommander> and the hands move!
<ogra> what it does for me is that it drwas the clock fine, and you see actual movement of the hand
<NCommander> (I turned on the second and and its moving, so it the minute)
<NCommander> Ok, it works!
<NCommander> woo
<ogra> but it never manages to actually move really ... it just jumps back and forth by a pixel
<ogra> please leave it running for some minutes 
 * NCommander watches the second and minute hands move
<ogra> for me it perfectly emulates an alarmclock with low battery :)
<ogra> oh, you have a hand for the seconds ? ok, i never got that
<NCommander> so far so good
<NCommander> ogra, oh, I turned that on in the preferences
<ogra> ah
<NCommander> (the hildon patch fixes the preferences)
<ogra> right, i never got preferences 
<ogra> so it was actually the missing patch
<NCommander> Right
<NCommander> Well, no
<NCommander> The last uploader broke the autotools rules
<NCommander> I only caught that because I was checking with ldd to make sure the split package was linking against hildon
<NCommander> so the -DUSE_HILDON rule never kicked in
<NCommander> ogra, can I upload now :-)
<ogra>  sure
<persia> So I've run the script.  http://paste.ubuntu.com/72833/ shows packages that match "lpia" in debian/rules, and are likely candidates for investigation from my current sources.
<ogra> dont bothe me :)
<ogra> *bother
<ogra> its the time of cycle where everyone should just upload ... we can fix stuff later :)
<persia> I'll investigate the control ones, and try to weed out false positives.
<NCommander> I think your script is dated, I fixed galculator
<NCommander> unless its checking in the changelog
<NCommander> cheese and contacts also ahve been fixed
<persia> My apt-cache downloaded galculator-1.3.1
 * ogra finds it really unfortunate that galculator needs that .desktop patch
<persia> And I just updated it.  Maybe something's out of date?
<ogra> such a waste of bytes
<NCommander> I just pulled it from the jaunty source
<NCommander> its up to date
<NCommander> evince doesn't have a working hildon patch ATM
<NCommander> I'd like someone to review fbreader with me
<ogra> evince should get even more than a hidlon patch
<NCommander> I'm hestiant at touching either grub or usplash :-P
<ogra> there is a grab and drag patch *somewhere* that should be added
<ogra> so it behaves like midbrowser
<NCommander> ogra, evience doesn't have a hildon patch since Intrepid Alpha 3
 * NCommander knows that first hand since I disabled it :-P
<ogra> yeah, because we stopped using it i think
<NCommander> ogra, no, because GTK+hildon+evience broke stuff ;-)
<ogra> *if* we use it, the g&d one should be added as well
 * NCommander remembers when he did that merge with seb128
<NCommander> I personally would like to see Mozilla be removed with something less fat
 * NCommander nitpicks :-P
<ogra> webkit isnt so much smaller
<ogra> what would you use ? dillo ? 
<NCommander> Midori is a fairly small webbrowser (its webkit based, but its fairly cruft free)
<NCommander> Not sure if its fully production ready yet, but 1.0 has been quite stable
<ogra> but doesnt get as much developer attention in ubuntu as xul does
<NCommander> But its not XUL :-)
<persia> I'm not sure why it's out of date.  Here's the rough and dirty script if you've the bandwidth to replicate: http://paste.ubuntu.com/72835/
<ogra> we have a huge xulrunner tea we can poke for fixes, that somewhat justifies using xulrunner
<ogra> *team
<ogra> if we'd use midori we were on our own
<NCommander> persia, your not checking against jaunty?
<NCommander> ogra, I'm used to embedded environments where 16MB of space was considered a luxery :-P
<ogra> heh
<persia> NCommander, RIght.  See this is why this is a bad time to run the script :)
<ogra> i think that time is over nowadays 
<persia> Just ignore anything you know to be fixed.
<ogra> though i still have two old ipaqs in a box soemwhere :)
<ogra> i know what you mean
<NCommander> I'm disturbed grub has an lpia specific tweak
<persia> Actually, that's just a comment.
<NCommander> \o/Q
<NCommander> *!
<persia> It's not an especially smart script :)
<persia> Just something to check stuff, and build quick lists for processing.
<NCommander> ogra, can you merge my seed changes into the actual seed?
<persia> NCommander, Isn't it worth building the complete list first?
<NCommander> If alpha 1 is around the corner, we'll have a really broken image if the seed is left the way it is
<persia> Alpha 1 is the 20th, I think.  Still a couple days.
<ogra> yeah
<NCommander> Fair enough
<ogra> i'll do seed work tomorrow anyway
<NCommander> ANyway, who would like to look over fbreader
 * persia wonders if StevenK is still awake and might be willing
 * ogra doesnt want to do "normal" work on a sunday :)
<NCommander> persia, I'm just not sure how to make the seed changes so the end result si desirable
 * NCommander doesn't want to blow something up
<persia> NCommander, Well, if you're changing something, swap the new package name for the old package name.
<NCommander> No, I need to add a new dependency
<persia> You oughtn't need a deep understanding of seeds for this stuff.
<NCommander> But I'm not quite sure the dependency tree will work out
<persia> Oh, I remember now.
<NCommander> fbreader depends on libzgui which depends on a backend
<NCommander> The LPIA hack forces the dependency ont he backend on mameo
<ogra> and germinate wil take care for you :)
<ogra> as long as the package has the dep right
<persia> I'd recommend downloading mobile-meta, modifying update.cfg to point at your branch, and seeing what results you get.
<NCommander> Fair enough
 * NCommander needs to get his day started
<persia> Obviously that change doesn't belong in the repo, but it lets you test sample results of seeds.
<NCommander> persia, right
<NCommander> persia, we'll probably have everything de-lpiaified by today or tommorow \o/!
<persia> Right.  All the control.candidates that are not also rules.candidates are false-positives.
<NCommander> cool
<persia> (p.s. Don't look at gtreamer plugins as an example of how to handle architecture easily)
<persia> NCommander, I reran the script in an updated Jaunty environment.  The rules list is http://paste.ubuntu.com/72885/
<s0u][ight> hello can i install ubuntu-mid-edition on a samsung omnia?
<s0u][ight> can anything running windows mobile run ubuntu mid edition?
<s0u][ight> no one able to answer the question? could ubuntu mid edition be installed on a samsung omnia?
<davidm> s0u][ight, currently the MID edition is targeted to the Intel Atom  CPU with the poulsbo video subsystem.  It likely will be lacking drivers for many devices as it was directly targeted to the Intel Crown Beach development platform.
<s0u][ight> davidm, it probably will never work on the samsung omnia right?
<davidm> what is the CPU on that device?
<s0u][ight> i don't know
<s0u][ight> lemme look it up
<s0u][ight> :s lag in my network
<davidm> There is an image of the MID that runs on the samsung Q1 Ultra but it lacks some drivers since the Q1 did not use the Atom chip, but it was the only platform we had that was portable for testing somethings on.
<s0u][ight> davidm, i think the q1 and omnia are totally different
<s0u][ight> since the price of the one is more expensive
<s0u][ight> can't even open google ;|
<s0u][ight> -_-'  (love that emoticon)
<s0u][ight> davidm, irc works fine but i can't surf :| lol
<rlaager> Please bear with me on this question. Are you guys using Hildon? I assume so. What IM client does Ubuntu mobile ship by default? I'm an upstream developer on Pidgin and there's a port of Pidgin for the N810 tablet that uses Hildon. Is that something Ubuntu Mobile would be interested in? If so, would it help to merge the pidgin-maemo code upstream?
#ubuntu-mobile 2009-11-09
<derekS> is it possible to have UMR and UNR running from one installation? Just changing the DM?
<plars_> derekS: not easily, best bet is probably to dual boot
<plars_> derekS: there are potential plans to make UNR selectable as an interface at login time in Lucid though
<derekS> plars: would that be to team it with UMR and KDE's Netbook?
<GrueMaster> derekS: UMR is essentially Intel's GUI design on top of Ubuntu core OS.
<GrueMaster> Not even remotely similar beyond that.
#ubuntu-mobile 2009-11-10
<JohnnyLollipop> hello, every body
<JohnnyLollipop> I am a freshman in Ubuntu-mobile
<JohnnyLollipop> I want to know where I should start to build-up hildon desktop on Ubuntu x86
<imagitron1> hey all. I'm running Jaunty on a Dell Mini 10 (The crappy GMA 500 model) and I'm having problems getting my netbook to wake from sleep.
<imagitron1> I tried the SUSPEND_MODULES trick to disable my WiFi
<imagitron1> But I think this is related tot he GMA 500. (this card will be the death of me).
<imagitron1> Obviously, with the GMA 500, I'm stuck in Jaunty, can't move to Karmic. if anyone has any ideas, I'd really appreciate it.
<asac_> dyfet: hey ;)
<asac_> irc gateway got disconnected
<asac_> so this is a temp session
<dyfet> ah
<dyfet> asac_: bug #480161
<asac_> dyfet: so turns out that libseed0 is pulling that stuff in
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 480161 in epiphany-browser "Depends on gobject introspection, pulls lots of -dev packages" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/480161
<asac_> thx
<dyfet> libseed0? :)
<asac_> but it seems its more or less something wanted (at least seb said it might be wanted)
<asac_> yes. thats what is depending on gobject introspection
<dyfet> okay
<dyfet> its wanted? :)
<asac_> so the story is that javascript seems to introspect .so files ... rather than the SO versioned filename
<dyfet> ohh....that sounds....ugly
<asac_> i am not so sure, ... would be something one should verify ... and see what the result is if there are no .so fils ;)
<asac_> yeah
<asac_> really ugly ;)
<dyfet> I installed it with the dev packages disabled on my unr, and it seemed to run
<asac_> yep
<dyfet> even tried some js intensive sites...
<asac_> right. so question is: a) is it true that it needs .so files at runtime ... if thats the case b) is that use-case really worse justifying a recommends on -dev packages
<dyfet> yes...something we should find out for uds...
<asac_> for b) i lean towards NO
<asac_> for a) one needs to check code ... which also would backup b)
<dyfet> If they can become suggests that would be fine :)
<asac_> right
<dyfet> or suggest an extra package that could pull the devs
<asac_> maybe drop those findings to the spec whiteboard too (e.g. responsing to your -dev comment)
<dyfet> that I think would be cleaner
<asac_> we can think if and what to do then
<dyfet> okay
<asac_> cool
<osmosis> im trying to install the netbook remix, but after starting up and selecting to 'Try it',..i just get a black screen with a watch in the middle.
#ubuntu-mobile 2009-11-11
<larrydag> hello.  how does one install packages in ubuntu mobile?  i'm using a Samsung Q1U
<tofarley> I'm using a Dell Mini 10. Everything works great, but I'd like to get the "two-finger right click" working. I think that the current driver is "working" because when I two finger click in firefox/chrome it opens a link in a new tab instead of the default click. Is it possible that my two-finger click is registering as a middle-click?
<tofarley> confirmed. I just two-finger clicked in gnome-terminal and it pasted.
<tofarley> What can I put into my xorg.conf to switch the buttons around?
<tofarley> I figured out the right-click thing.
<tofarley> Turns out the drivers were working, but it was registering two-finger clicks as middle-button.
<tofarley> xmodmap fixed me up.
<tofarley> Well, guys in ##linux figured it out for me.
<tofarley> Thanks anyways
#ubuntu-mobile 2009-11-12
<plars> davidm, asac, anyone?: Can you elaborate more on how this is going to work when we plan for work with stakeholders again after each mileston?  Does this imply more sprints will be needed this cycle?
<lool> plars: ECHAN?
<plars> yeah, sorry, on a different machine where my chan order is reversed
<davidm> plars, no but might have some phone calls
<GrueMaster> Speaking of phones, Today was my eligibility date to order the new Verizon Droid.  Order was placed at 12:11am.  "Should" have it tomorrow.  Woot!
<plars> GrueMaster: sweet
<plars> I'm not on verizon anymore, switched to tmobile and got a G1
<plars> GrueMaster: I'll be interested in your experience with it, I think that one uses the new 2.0 version of android right?
<GrueMaster> yes
#ubuntu-mobile 2009-11-13
 * persia peers about
<Stefan> Good morning
 * razadar  waves hello  to every one!
#ubuntu-mobile 2009-11-15
<luke-jr> I downloaded FSL_UBUNTU_092009, but am having difficult mounting it
<luke-jr> it is ext3, right?
