#ubuntu-mobile 2007-10-03
* Starting logfile irclogs/ubuntu-mobile.log
<mdz> Mithrandir: do you have a working build you could provide to davidm to install his Q1 Ultra?
<Mithrandir> mdz: not offhand, but I could whip up one
<mdz> Mithrandir: are any of the ones published on cdimage usable?
<Mithrandir> I don't think so, no.
<mdz> agoliveira: how about you?  do you have a known good image on hand?
<agoliveira> mdz: Sorry, no. I don't keep old images here and the last one wasn't booting right on the Q1.
<amitk> mdz: with the changes to image creator, everybody was required to delete old projects. So, no images.
<Mithrandir> amitk: that change has not hit gutsy, fwif
<Mithrandir> -f+w
<amitk> Mithrandir: the projects didn't become unusable due to change in platform-name?
<Mithrandir> the platform name hasn't changed in gutsy; I haven't uploaded the new mic from moblin.org
<Mithrandir> (last time I checked, it didn't have any functionality we wanted)
<amitk> Mithrandir: aah, I use mic from git.
<Mithrandir> that'd explain it.
<amitk> Mithrandir: do you have a working kernel config for mccaslin (samsung)? I want to be sure I don't miss out any DRI or other options
<Mithrandir> amitk: not a working lpia one, no.  It's traditionally used the -generic kernel, iirc.
<amitk> Mithrandir: i386-ume actually which was stripped down version of i386-generic. Handcrafting .config files into the build system is not fun....
<Mithrandir> amitk: ugh.
<mjg59> mccaslin needs lum and lrm as well
<mjg59> I think they're missing at the moment?
<amitk> mjg59: have a working kernel config handy?
<mjg59> amitk: Nope
<mjg59> But the machine's capable enough that the -generic from i386 is fine
<mjg59> Overkill, but fine :)
<amitk> mjg59: those are missing... I have added lum, not done lrm yet
<mjg59> Thanks
<mjg59> Is the application menu actually working for anyone at the moment?
<mjg59> Mine just lists "Extras" and then has 5 entries
<Mithrandir> so does mine
<agoliveira> Ditto (last working image)
<agoliveira> Mithrandir: Is Loic going to work on UME as well?
<Mithrandir> yes, part-time.
<Mithrandir> (part-time on desktop tasks)
<agoliveira> Mithrandir: Hmmm... have to ask Matt to update me on that. Suddenly lot's of people showing up :)
<Mithrandir> agoliveira: it's been on the calendar for a while, but yeah, I'm sure you'll get an update on it later today.
<agoliveira> Mithrandir: I was aware of the changes, of course, I meant about who's going to do exactly what now nad, of course, a bit of awe with all the people showing up at once :)
<Mithrandir> agoliveira: oh, the who's going-to-do-what is still slightly up in the air, but we're trying to work it out as people come in.
<Mithrandir> agoliveira: how's the tools for the theme handling going?  AIUI, the new theme is blocked on that?
* agoliveira hopes to get a bit of rest from the packaging/hildonnization endless loop :)
<agoliveira> Mithrandir: Yes, I sent a test for Ken but didn't work well. I'm fixing it and will send another test later today.
<Mithrandir> sounds good.
<agoliveira> Mithrandir: Is anyone currently working on cleaninng openoffice's interface for UME?
<Mithrandir> agoliveira: not that I know of, no.
<mjg59> Doing so would be... interesting
<agoliveira> mjg59: You do have som quite weird concept for "interesting". I was thinking more in the lines of a 7th circle of hell :)
* agoliveira browsed openoffice's source some time ago and the question mark face remained for weeks...
<amitk> Mithrandir: what is the quickest way to replace the kernel in the .img file from mic?
<agoliveira> Mithrandir, amitk: Have any of you tried to run openoffice on crownbeach? I would like to know how long it takes to start.
<StevenK> agoliveira: Do you want the answer in minutes, or hours? :-P
<agoliveira> StevenK: eons is fine :)
<StevenK> :-D
<amitk> agoliveira: I am not that crazy yet....
<amitk> Mithrandir, mjg59, agoliveira: care to test the lpiacompat .debs on your samsungs?  Find them at http://people.ubuntu.com/~amitk/
<agoliveira> amitk: The boss asked for a test and as you and Tollef are the ones with crownbeaches, thew honors are all yours :)
<amitk> agoliveira: can't do it today, got a new flavour to get working... tomorrow perhaps.
<agoliveira> amitk: Sure.
<agoliveira> 2X
<mjg59> amitk: Seems ok
<mjg59> Except my /bin has vanished for some reason
<mjg59> But I can't see how that could be the kernel's fault, so...
<StevenK> agoliveira: For future reference, I'll be connected all of the time, just /away'd when I'm sleeping, drunk, dead, etc ...
<amitk> mjg59: thanks.
<mjg59> I'll reinstall properly when there's an image with that in
<mjg59> Thanks!
<agoliveira> StevenK: Cool. Just remind to use /ressurect when you return... from dead :)
<StevenK> No, that's what Soulstones are for. :-P
<mdz> does anyone have a kernel .deb with the fixes from ubuntu git? amitk?
<amitk> mdz: ^^^^
<agoliveira> amitk: The kernel seems to be fine here.
* agoliveira is going lunch
<amitk> agoliveira: thanks
<amitk> Mithrandir, mjg59: do we care about apparmour security on lpia? Or can it disable the module?
<amitk> Mithrandir: mjg59, agoliveira_lunch: mdz: LUM also available there now.. give it a spin
<mdz> amitk: oh, thanks
<mdz> amitk: do you have an LRM as well?
<amitk> mdz: working on it
<mdz> amitk: the console problem is still there; does this kernel have the vm86 fix?
<mjg59> mdz: Hm. Worked for me.
<mdz> oh, I've still booted the old kernel
<mdz> what's the trick?
<mjg59> mdz: Are you sure you booted into the new kernel? Unless you mount /dev/sda1 as /boot, it won't go anywhere grub looks at
<mdz> thanks
<mdz> (is there a bug filed about that?)
<mjg59> And then you need to hack menu.lst by hand and replace root=whatever with boot=disk
* StevenK runs off to sleep
<mdz> mjg59: works, thanks
<mdz> agoliveira_lunch: midbrowser in the current build still has drop-down menus
<mdz> oh, they vanish after a few seconsd
<mdz> xterm doesn't launch for some reason
<Mithrandir> amitk: apparmor> not important at this point at least.
<amitk> Mithrandir: removed :)
<agoliveira> mdz: You had menus on MID that vanished? Weird...
<amitk> mjg59: you only need madwifi in LRM, right? no ipw3945?
<mjg59> amitk: Suspect it depends whether we're just targetting the Q1, or whether there's any desire to potentially support other UMPCs at some stage
<mjg59> I only need madwifi, though
<amitk> I haven't heard of anything containing ipw yet. I'll disable it for now.
<amitk> mjg59, agoliveira, mdz, Mithrandir: Please help yourselves to lpiacompat and lpia kernel, LUM and LRM packages from people.ubuntu.com/~amitk
<mjg59> amitk: Thanks!
<mjg59> That'll be in the next upload?
* agoliveira hugs amitk!
<amitk> mjg59: yes. Let me know how it works for you.
<mjg59> Excellent. Thanks very much!
<agoliveira> amitk: Maybe you should post on the UME ML so the Intel people can test as well.
<amitk> agoliveira: hmm... good idea
<HappyCamp_ubuntu> amitk: ?
<amitk> HappyCamp_ubuntu: hi
<HappyCamp_ubuntu> What did your email mean for LPIA?  lpiacompat?
<HappyCamp_ubuntu> Is that just the kernel?
<HappyCamp_ubuntu> I'm confused.
<amitk> yes... didn't i say the keyword "kernel" there?
<amitk> :)
<HappyCamp_ubuntu> amitk: Not that I noticed.
<HappyCamp_ubuntu> So do  I need to change the FSET in Moblin Image Creator?
<HappyCamp_ubuntu> Should I install this special kernel for a McCaslin system?
<amitk> For mccaslin yes... you should be using the lpiacompat kernels for samsungs now. But you can wait until tomorrow
<amitk> It will fix the blinking screen, inability to get to console, etc.
<HappyCamp_ubuntu> Sweet :)  ToddBrandt read what has been said here.  
<HappyCamp_ubuntu> amitk: we have been seeing that funkyness.  It was strange.  If I booted my LiveUSB image from the USB hub then it worked. amitk 
<robr> amitk: so what's causing the issue with the blinking screen any ways?
<HappyCamp_ubuntu> But plugged directly into the system it failed amitk 
<ToddBrandt> amitk: ahhh, so my samsung isn't crazy
<robr> rustyl: see what amitk has to say about the lpiacompat kernel ;-)
<HappyCamp_ubuntu> amitk: So question.  What will be the name of the package that I need to install?  kernel-lpiacompat ?
<rustyl> what do i install?
<amitk> ooooh... lots of intel people ganging up :-p
<amitk> hold on
<amitk> From http://people.ubuntu.com/~amitk/  : linux-image-2.6.22-13-lpiacompat_2.6.22-13.40_lpia.deb, linux-restricted-modules-2.6.22-13-lpiacompat_2.6.22.4-13.5_lpia.deb, linux-ubuntu-modules-2.6.22-13-lpiacompat_2.6.22-13.33_lpia.deb  
<amitk> that should even get wireless on the samsungs working
<HappyCamp_ubuntu> amitk: how long until that hits ports.ubuntu.com ?
<amitk> The kernel upload is being worked on today (US time). So I guess it will hit ports tomorrow. I will keep you posted.
<HappyCamp_ubuntu> Thanks!  I appreciate it.
<rustyl> ok, downloading
<rustyl> amitk, i just tried the lpiacompat deps
<rustyl> amitk, but the boot fails to mount the squashfs image
<mjg59> rustyl: Make sure it's passing boot=disk rather than root=foo
<rustyl> let me see what's happening
<rustyl> looks like the squashfs module is not loaded
<mjg59> Hm. They work fine for me.
<mjg59> (Q1)
<mjg59> Oh - did you install linux-ubuntu-modules as well?
<mjg59> Otherwise you won't get squashfs
<rustyl> mjg59, yes
<rustyl> the module is in the resulting filesystem
<mjg59> Odd.
<rustyl> but it's not being added to the initial ram disk
<rustyl> let me see if somebody did something evil to the image creation step
<rustyl> FYI for anyone that cares... we don't seem to pick up any of the modules in /lib/modules/*/ubuntu (where by 'pickup' i mean the initramfs tools are not copying the files into the initial ramdisk)
#ubuntu-mobile 2007-10-04
<dholbach> good morning
<dholbach> HappyCamp: did you get  http://daniel.holba.ch/temp/moblin-chat.debdiff ?
<mdz> HappyCamp_laptop: <dholbach> HappyCamp: did you get  http://daniel.holba.ch/temp/moblin-chat.debdiff ?
<HappyCamp_laptop> mdz I did get one last week.
<HappyCamp_laptop> and applied it to our version.
* agoliveira would love if HappyCamp choose one nick only :)
* HappyCamp_laptop is logged in multiple places :)
<HappyCamp_laptop> mdz but I had not seen that patch.  I will apply it to our version.
<Mithrandir> agoliveira: .. says the man who changes nick for lunch or when he's away? ;-P
<agoliveira> Mithrandir: at least anyone can tell if I'm on my chair or not just looking at it ;)
<HappyCamp_laptop> Speaking of laptops.  I'm supposed to get my old, old Thinkpad T40 replaced with a T61.  Yeah for me :)
<benj3one> where would I find people knowledgeable about running linux on a razr
<Mithrandir> asac,StevenK,amitk: Around for meeting in one?
<amitk> yup
<Mithrandir> HappyCamp_laptop: ship me the old one? ;-)
<asac> yes
<HappyCamp_laptop> LOL.  They take them away from us.
<benj3one> Motorola razr*
<Mithrandir> HappyCamp_laptop: bad people!
<Mithrandir> benj3one: we are not initally targetting phones at all, so I don't think we can help you, sorry.
<amitk> benj3one: motorola? :-p
<benj3one> I am aware of the project goals
<benj3one> Looking for another project, thought being in the biz you might know
<HappyCamp_laptop> 9:00 am here in Oregon
<benj3one> I hope you do eventually consider smart phones though..
<Mithrandir> benj3one: we might well do, yes.
<Mithrandir> davidm: you around as well?  Mobile meeting
<davidm> Yes
<mawahlen> Mauri joined
<Mithrandir> hi Mauri, Don
<Don_Johnson> Good Morning
<Mithrandir> kwwii: you around too?
* agoliveira waves everyone feeling good for the sunny day after a week of rain :)
* lool waves to all attendees and takes the opportunity to announce that I'll work with the Mobile team at Canonical part of my time
* agoliveira hugs lool
<kwwii> Mithrandir: yepp
<mdz> Mithrandir: ready to kick things off?
<Mithrandir> we're still missing Charlie it seems?
<mawahlen> Is Rusty, Carl, Todd, John here?
<Mithrandir> Don_Johnson: do you know where Charlie is?
<ToddBrandt> here
<cwong1> here
<Don_Johnson> Charlie is looking over my shoulder.
<Mithrandir> ok, good
<bspencer> Charlie... where are you!?
<Mithrandir> let's start then
<Mithrandir> #startmeeting
<HappyCamp_laptop> John here (wanted to get on MootBot's attendance list) :)
<MootBot> Meeting started at 17:05. The chair is Mithrandir.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC] , [IDEA] , [ACTION] , [AGREED] , [LINK] , [VOTE] 
<Mithrandir> welcome everybody, today's schedule is at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileAndEmbedded/Meeting
<Mithrandir> it's just the stock one + an introduction of new team members; does anybody have any more agenda items?
<mdz> perhaps one
<mdz> would it be useful to do an explicit update regarding the status of the current breakage in the daily build?
<ian_brasil> me too
<Mithrandir> mdz: good idea.
<Mithrandir> ian_brasil: what do you have?
<agoliveira> Yellow fever?
<agoliveira> Sorry :)
<ian_brasil> team reports ...it would help a lot jkeeping track of things
<mdz> ian_brasil: you mean https://wiki.ubuntu.com/TeamReports ?
<ian_brasil> yes
<Mithrandir> ok, I'll add both to the agenda
<Mithrandir> [TOPIC]  Introductions
<MootBot> New Topic:  Introductions 
<Mithrandir> we have a few new starters this week: David Mandala who is joining us as the project manager
<davidm> Hello all
<bspencer> curious .. what is a project manager's role ?
<mdz> davidm will be taking over for me in managing the engineering team for Ubuntu Mobile
<mdz> I've been brain-dumping with him this week
<Mithrandir> Steven Kowalik who's joining us full-time working on mobile and Loc Minier, who will be working 50/50 on desktop and mobile.
<Mithrandir> this should make me less of a SPOF than I've been in the past too.
<mdz> I'll remain involved through the transition, but he will become the point of contact for the work Canonical is doing
<dholbach> welcome davidm, StevenK and lool :)
<agoliveira> Mithrandir: Maybe would be good to explain where they are based so people can have an idea of times around.
<Mithrandir> agoliveira: indeed.
<mdz> davidm is currently in London with me, but usually based in Texas
<Mithrandir> StevenK is based in Sydney, .au, lool is in France.
<amitk> welcome davidm, StevenK, lool
<Mithrandir> so StevenK either won't be attending the meetings or we will have to rotate them a bit so they don't hit him at 0200 each week.
<agoliveira> As if we geeks go to bed early :)
<Mithrandir> agoliveira: some of us do. ;-)
<seb128> agoliveira: your hildon evince patches create a bug on the non hildon version, bug #146458
<mdz> StevenK: are you here?
<seb128> could you look into it?
<agoliveira> Sissy :)
<agoliveira> seb128: I've seen it. Thanks.
<Mithrandir> any questions for the new starters?
<seb128> ups, middle of a meeting, sorry guys
<Mithrandir> seb128: np
<Mithrandir> ok, moving on
<Mithrandir> as we don't seem to have any action items from the last meeting(!), we'll skip that item
<Mithrandir> and then move on to status reports
<Mithrandir> [ACTION]  Status reports
<MootBot> ACTION received:  Status reports 
<Mithrandir> the only one I haven't seen sent to the list is the one for browser
<mdz> don't you mean [TOPIC] ?
<Mithrandir> uh, yes
<cwong1> its been sent
<Mithrandir> oh, it's there now.
<bspencer> :) 
<cwong1> I sent to the wrong email address at first
<cwong1> :(
<Mithrandir> could you guys in the western US please send them on Wednesday evening so they're there a bit before two minutes before the meeting starts?
<HappyCamp_laptop> I sent mine :)  10 minutes before the meeting.
<bspencer> but we do most of our work Wednesday evening
<asac> for browser, i will start to bake a release later tonight ... so probably we get a new upload tomorrow.
<Mithrandir> asac: yay
<mawahlen> Mithrandir: yes, they can send them the night before, I'll remind them
<asac> cwong1: any news on gconf network settings? from what i know the code is already there
<Don_Johnson> I'll try for Wed evening in the future
<bspencer> asac, cwong1  you guys have special needs wrt the theme, right?
<Mithrandir> [TOPIC]  status reports
<MootBot> New Topic:  status reports 
<asac> bspencer: i think i just need to replace the arrow displayed for nested menus ... because that one is not taken from native theme
<Mithrandir> Don_Johnson,mawahlen: thanks.
<bspencer> your drop-down menu uses Hildon theme elements?
<asac> bspencer: for me it looks pretty much alike ... e.g. blue border et al
<bspencer> k. that's great
<cwong1> asac: we can chat about gconf offline
<asac> cwong1: online, but in other channel ... yes.
<cwong1> yes
<Mithrandir> any more questions about the status reports?
<mdz> bspencer: is there an ETA on getting the media player into gutsy?
<bspencer> Mithrandir,  I saw you said OK to libclutter.  Any ETA on when they will arrive?
<Mithrandir> bspencer: today or tomorrow.
<bspencer> mdz, hm, I thought it was already in ubuntu-staging fset.
<bspencer> mdz, at least the package could be added.  But we would like to not freeze the code until mid-next week
<bspencer> (if possible :-\ )
<Mithrandir> mdz: mjg59 is working on that and a kernel bug this week, I'll check with him
<mdz> shouldn't be any need to wait for a freeze to do an initial drop, so we can review the packaging and get it into the archive
<bspencer> right.  I think we're ready for that from our end.
<mdz> I would also like to note that we are in an increasingly deep freeze for ubuntu 7.10
<mdz> while this shouldn't affect development on mobile-specific components too much, changes to shared components will be scrutinized
<mdz> the release goes out on the 18th, after which things will soften again
<Mithrandir> I think we can have moblin-media in tomorrow; mjg59 has been busy with a kernel problem.
<mjg59> Yes, it'll go in tomorrow assuming nothing goes wrong
<mawahlen> bspencer: anything we need to do on our side for the Media Player opposed to making sure it's in the staging fset?
<Mithrandir> mawahlen: for most apps, HappyCamp_laptop should be pushing them through the sponsorship mechanism.
<bspencer> mawahlen, make sure it builds
<mawahlen> bspencer: do you own that?
<bspencer> mawahlen, co-own, yes.
<bspencer> if it breaks I holler at people
<bspencer> does that mean I own it?
<HappyCamp_laptop> Please let me know if there are packages that we need to push into Ubuntu.  So I can work on getting them pushed in.
<Mithrandir> HappyCamp_laptop: "anything in the ubuntu staging fset"
<HappyCamp_laptop> Okay.  I will work on those then.
<mawahlen> bspencer: I want to make sure that we meet Gutsy dates.  
<Mithrandir> HappyCamp_laptop: but please just drop me a question before you push stuff so we make sure it's not being worked on already; like mjg59 is poking moblin-media.
<bspencer> mawahlen, absolutely.  I don't know of any new packages that need to go into gutsy  (except media player, which I thought was already in process)
<bspencer> mawahlen, the new "kwwii UI" will be based on an existig package
<HappyCamp_laptop> Mithrandir: ok
<Mithrandir> the same goes for updated versions; we want to have up to date packages in Ubuntu; don't be afraid to push packages early and often.
<mdz> agreed
<Mithrandir> moving on
<Mithrandir> [TOPIC]  Status update on broken daily builds
<MootBot> New Topic:  Status update on broken daily builds 
<Mithrandir> as you probably know, the daily builds have been broken for quite a while due to kernel bugs.
<Mithrandir> I was promised a kernel upload last Friday which didn't happen; kernel freeze is today and we are having a new kernel today.
<Mithrandir> so assuming that builds and works, we'll have working images tomorrow.
<mdz> the kernel from ~amitk got me up and running
<agoliveira> Same here
<mdz> I would like to do a brief post-mortem if we could, and find out how we ended up in this position so that we can avoid it in the future
<mdz> we know that it takes a long time to push a new kernel update through during crunch time (like now), so we want to get it right the first time if possible
<Mithrandir> as you've seen on the mailing list, we're talking about how to prevent this from happening in the future, so we'll discuss this at the developer summit in a couple of weeks.
<Mithrandir> I think the main problem was nobody had actually tested the lpia kernel on a mobile device.
<mdz> amitk: did a new kernel get released from git before you had a chance to test it on MID?
<HappyCamp_laptop> speaking of the kernel.  How will I specify the lpiacompat kernel in our FSET?
<amitk> mdz: It did. With the unionfs changes.
<mdz> amitk: in the long term, do you think it's sufficient to insert ourselves in that process and require MID testing before an upload is made, or might we need to maintain a separate kernel tree?
<amitk> mdz: requiring MID testing is an easy and cheap solution - all it requires is a .deb package being tested on real HW; few hours at most.
<mdz> amitk: you'll take that up with BenC then?
<amitk> maintaining a separate tree is _expensive_, though there are benefits of faster turn around time for hotfixes
<Mithrandir> I'd also like us to consider lpia a first class citizen, so if stuff's completely broken there, we do a new upload, even if it's not needed for other arches.
<amitk> mdz: it is on the UDS agenda, so all stakeholders should be present
<mdz> amitk: great, thanks
<Mithrandir> the kernel upload has actually already happened, btw.
<amitk> Mithrandir: no one is treating lpia as a second class citizen, the problem is there are too many first class citizens :/
<agoliveira> amitk: You should go to politics :)
<Mithrandir> amitk: if i386 hadn't booted at all with usplash enabled because CONFIG_VM86 hadn't been turned on, I'm sure it would not have taken this long to get a fixed kernel in.
<amitk> Mithrandir: I think the problem was the sudden turning ON of lpia for MIC builds. It caught atleast me unaware.
<Mithrandir> amitk: I'm not trying to point fingers here; I'm just trying to explain what I mean by second class citizen.
<amitk> Mithrandir: I know... neither am I :)
<Mithrandir> as for switching; it had to happen at some point.
<Mithrandir> I guess the lesson is to do those kind of changes as early as possible.
<mdz> amitk: it happened more or less according to the schedule
<mdz> though it was not on the schedule very far in advance
<Mithrandir> but it was the plan to switch at some point from the very beginning
<mdz> yes
<Mithrandir> so the timing might have caught people unaware, but the fact we were to switch shouldn't have.
<Mithrandir> I don't think there's much more to be said about this; should we move on?
<amitk> mdz: perhaps, but I was still caught unaware. One day we were using UME/i386, the next people were screaming about LPIA - VM86, etc.
<mdz> Mithrandir: ok with me
<amitk> ok with me
<Mithrandir> [TOPIC]  Team reporting
<MootBot> New Topic:  Team reporting 
<Mithrandir> ian_brasil: your topic
<ian_brasil> ok...i think team reports would help a lot
<ian_brasil> it is hard keeping track of things
<ian_brasil> so this idea is rwally good IMHO
<ian_brasil> i created the page https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileAndEmbedded/ReportingPage
<ian_brasil> and then up to 22 of the month for simple 1/2 line reports with links
<Mithrandir> it requires a person to take the lead on it
<Mithrandir> are you volunteering for that role?
<Mithrandir> [LINK]  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileAndEmbedded/ReportingPage
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileAndEmbedded/ReportingPage 
<ian_brasil> well it would help me a lot with the guide so if no one else is up for it i can do it yes
* bspencer goes to link...
<Mithrandir> I think the job would mostly consist of prodding people into putting some text on the page
<mdz> ian_brasil: perhaps folks could add their status reports there instead of posting to the mailing list, and you could aggregate and submit them?
<mdz> or s/instead of/in addition to/
<ian_brasil> sounds ok to me
<bspencer> the difficult part is getting something that is not "write-only"
<ian_brasil> and as long as people don't get to annoyed with me hassling them all the time!
<bspencer> what are we trying to fix.
<bspencer> I don't mind sending the duplicate email. If it helps, lets do it.    Is there a missing link in communication?
<ian_brasil> one central location for mobile work rather than digging through mail lists , irc logs etc
<bspencer> k.  let's try it
<mdz> bspencer: we're trying to better inform people who aren't (yet?) directly involved in the mobile project
<mdz> bspencer: this is a good way to get more visibility for our work, and attract more people to participate
<mdz> by tying into the existing community team reporting infrastructure, we get included in existing communications channels
<kyleN> perhaps folks should take it on themselves to update the wiki and perhaps email the list when they have and remove ian_brasil from having to nag them and etc.
<Mithrandir> experience shows that you need to have a person responsible
<Mithrandir> and since nobody else volunteers, ian_brasil it is. :-)
<Mithrandir> anybody got any more agenda items?
<HappyCamp_laptop> I had a question
<mdz> nothing from me
<agoliveira> Yes, I do have one question.
<kwwii> we could talk about themeing
<HappyCamp_laptop> speaking of the kernel.  How will I specify the lpiacompat kernel in our FSET?
<HappyCamp_laptop> I guess that could be offline though.
<Mithrandir> HappyCamp_laptop: if we can take that later, that'd be good
<HappyCamp_laptop> okay.
<Mithrandir> agoliveira: shoot
<agoliveira> Does anyone have any news about the tests with gecko 1.9 that I think Intel have being doing some time ago?
<bspencer> I don't know of formal testing of any sort
<bspencer> we heard there was a nice magnification feature in gecko 1.9
<agoliveira> I couldn't dig the exact person who sent an email about it ages ago.
<agoliveira> Yes, that's the interesting part.
<asac> agoliveira: what kind of infos are you interested in?
<bspencer> I think once Moz 3.0 is released we can start talking about our plans to use it, etc.
<bspencer> for hardy release maybe
<asac> agoliveira: you can install firefox-3.0 from mozillateam ppa in gutsy
<agoliveira> asac: Thanks, I'll see that
<asac> bspencer: yes should be default in hardy
<agoliveira> Cool. Just want to know if someone look at it. Thanks.
<Mithrandir> asac: if it's not too much work, it might be interesting to see midbrowser builds based on gecko 1.9
<agoliveira> That would be nice, if possible.
<asac> maintaining two branches is too much work ... a one time preview should be possible after release though
<Mithrandir> asac: ok.
<Mithrandir> asac: your call
<agoliveira> That's al for me.
<agoliveira> all
<Mithrandir> kwwii: theming> is that something that needs to go in the public meeting or can you just discuss it here afterwards?
<kwwii> we can discuss it later, nothing radically new
<Mithrandir> ok
<asac> Mithrandir: when do we plan to have the first UME release? will that be aligned with hardy?
<agoliveira> kwwii: Actually I have some catch-up to do with you later if possible.
<kwwii> agoliveira: cool, let me get dinner, etc then we can talk
<Mithrandir> asac: feature-complete, etc will be with 8.04
<Mithrandir> nothing more from anybody?
<bspencer> kwwii, I'd like to catch up too
<kwwii> bspencer: okidoki
<Mithrandir> adjourned
<asac> ok fine ... thanks all i have to run.
<Mithrandir> #endmeeting
<kwwii> we can have an irc themeing perty
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 18:01.
<agoliveira> Everyone want's a piece of Ken :)
<bspencer> bfiller, you here?
<kwwii> party
<kwwii> agoliveira: luckily there is enough of me to go around
* agoliveira will just stop after that... :)
<agoliveira> kwwii: Just ping me when you're around.
<bspencer> kwwii, agoliveira   are we taking a break, then coming back?
<kwwii> agoliveira: will do
<bspencer> eta
<kwwii> I should be back within two hours
<agoliveira> bspencer: No problem, I'll be right here
<kwwii> cook dinner, eat it, make my wife feel like I still love her, then back to irc
<bspencer> ok.  I'll drop and come back in a couple hours then.
<bspencer> kwwii, too much info ;)
<kwwii> ;-)
<HappyCamp_laptop> So Mithrandir do you know how we get lpiacompat to be pulled in for the mccaslin fset?
<Mithrandir> HappyCamp_laptop: once we have ubuntu-meta uploaded, just change the fset to depend on the linux-lpiacompat package
<HappyCamp_laptop> Ah.  Okay.  Thanks!
<HappyCamp_laptop> I will change core to depend on that.  Once it is available.
<Mithrandir> uh, not core, just the samsung-q1-ultra-config one?
<amitk> HappyCamp_laptop: lpiacompat is only for mccaslin
<HappyCamp_laptop> Mithrandir: I meant the "Core" fset in Mccaslin.  amitk 
<amitk> ok
<bspencer> HappyCamp_laptop, is this related to why we aren't getting LPIA apps in our images?
<bspencer> HappyCamp_laptop, or is that a separate issue
<Mithrandir> HappyCamp_laptop: just replace the linux-lpia one which is in Samsung-Q1-Ultra-Config
<HappyCamp_laptop> Mithrandir: Okay.
<HappyCamp_laptop> bspencer: What do you mean we aren't getting LPIA apps in our images?
<HappyCamp_laptop> As far as I know, we are getting LPIA apps in our images.
<bspencer> HappyCamp_laptop, I built an LPIA image for mccasslin a couple days ago.  But my claws email was not Hildonized
<HappyCamp_laptop> If you look at the install log, I am pretty sure you should be pulling in .lpia.deb files.
<Mithrandir> bspencer: what does dpkg --print-architecture in a shell print?
<bspencer> lpia
<HappyCamp_laptop> bspencer: then I think you are getting lpia.  Is that correct Mithrandir 
<Mithrandir> correct
<bspencer> ok.  agoliveira is there a way to look at the claws package itself?
<Mithrandir> what does apt-cache policy claws-mail say?
<bspencer> Mithrandir, right... just a se
<bspencer> c
<bspencer> claws-mail:
<bspencer>   Installed: 2.10.0-3ubuntu3
<bspencer>   Candidate: 2.10.0-3ubuntu3
<bspencer>   Version table:
<bspencer>  *** 2.10.0-3ubuntu3 0
<bspencer>         500 http://ports.ubuntu.com gutsy/universe Packages
<bspencer>         100 /var/lib/dpkg/status
<agoliveira> bspencer: You mean look inside the package to see if it's hildonized or not?
<bspencer> agoliveira, does the above look correct for this package?  
<agoliveira> bspencer: It seens ok but as it does not say the arch I can't tell you if it's going to install the right package.
<agoliveira> What does apt-cache show claws-mail | grep Arch says?
<bspencer> Architecture: lpia
<bspencer> did you hildonize the top menu?
<agoliveira> bspencer: Sure
<agoliveira> That's weird
<bspencer> :)
<agoliveira> I have this package running here. Let me check this out.
<bspencer> here's what I see:  http://moblin.org/repos/users/bspencer/ 
<bspencer> oops
<bspencer> here's what I see:  http://moblin.org/repos/users/bspencer/ claws.png
<bspencer> oops
<bspencer> oops
<bspencer> here's what I see:  http://moblin.org/repos/users/bspencer/claws.png
<bspencer> :P
<mjg59> Does anyone actually have a working main application menu using only the gutsy repository?
<agoliveira> bspencer: No, this is wrong.
<bspencer> but curiously cheese worked
<agoliveira> Can you check galculator?
<bspencer> cheese is hildon
<mjg59> The top-left menu, not the home screen
<bspencer> mjg59, not I.  But now that we have lpia builds I hope to figure out what is going on and fix it soon.
<mjg59> Ok
<agoliveira> bspencer: Hmmm... I'll have to check what happened but I have the I think someone screwed my hildon interface in Claws :) HOld on...
<Mithrandir> agoliveira: http://launchpadlibrarian.net/9157729/buildlog_ubuntu-gutsy-lpia.claws-mail_2.10.0-3ubuntu3_FULLYBUILT.txt.gz says "maemo build: no"
<mdz> agoliveira: are you using the package from gutsy or one you built yourself?
<agoliveira> Mithrandir: Yep. I'm checking.
<Mithrandir> agoliveira: current gutsy has   pkg_cv_MAEMO_CFLAGS=`$PKG_CONFIG --cflags "libosso hildon-libs hildon-fm" 2>/dev/null`
<Mithrandir> that's old maemo stuff
<agoliveira> mdz: Last time tested I think downloaded the package but it's being some time.
<agoliveira> Mithrandir: Aren't those builds taken place on a chroot? Looks like the lpia packages are being forced on a i386 enviroment.
<Mithrandir> agoliveira: they're build in a chroot, yes.
<agoliveira> Mithrandir: That's weird because I'm seeing a lot of "package architecture (lpia) does not match system (i386)" there and the building process itself seems to have detected a ix86 env.
<Mithrandir> agoliveira: I doubt that is the problem here.
<Mithrandir> your pkg-config call is failing because you're looking for old maemo packages.
<agoliveira> Mithrandir: You are correct. I was checking why is that because I don't believe it was that way before.
<Mithrandir> agoliveira: it's been that way for lpia since the beginning.
<agoliveira> Mithrandir: Strange, I'm quite sure it was working well, that's fine, I'll just fix it right now.
<agoliveira> Let me just figured out why because this should not be happening as the patch looks ok.
<jpan_> rob_, you there?
<agoliveira> Mithrandir: Ok, found the problem. I just can't understand why I didn't spot it before as I'm quite sure I tested it and not only once. Well, I'll just fix it.
<bspencer> agoliveira, great, thx.
<HappyCamp> see bspencer I didn't think it was my fault :)
<bspencer> you never do
<bspencer> :P
<HappyCamp> even when it is ;)
<agoliveira> HappyCamp: You're out of the hook... for now.... >:-)
<bspencer> usually its bob's noob factor
<Mithrandir> ;-)
<HappyCamp> agoliveira, that would be "off the hook" :)
<rob_moblin> i'm HappyCamp is at fault for something though
<rob_moblin> s/i'm/i'm sure/
<HappyCamp> rob_moblin, Is not a native english speaker either ;)
<rob_moblin> yes it's true, English is my 2nd language
<HappyCamp> Same here :)  Spanish was my first.  But I forgot it all.
<agoliveira> HappyCamp: I just reminded me that cartoon, Shaolin Showdown (I think that's the name). One of the characters there keeps doing the same kind of mistake :)
* agoliveira just realizes that "out of the hook" *is* kind of silly :)
<rob_moblin> AaronL2, ping
<HappyCamp> agoliveira, :)
* agoliveira hates quilt...
<kwwii> re
<agoliveira> Mithrandir: Can you refresh me about what happened to the tap-and-hold GTK patch? Isn't supposed to be on lpia or am I just getting old and confuse (39 in 10 days :( ) 
<Mithrandir> agoliveira: not there, but alternate implementation in gtk 2.12, I thought
<agoliveira> Mithrandir: I tought we would have it backported on lpia. Oh well, no big deal anyway.
<Mithrandir> maybe; ask seb tomorrow?
<Mithrandir> I'm off for today, see you tomorrow
<agoliveira> Mithrandir: Yep. I will.
<agoliveira> Mithrandir: Bye, have a good rest.
<ian_brasil> agoliveira: you are 16 days older than me at least :)
<agoliveira> ian_brasil: My wife's birthday is even closer, 01/11
<ian_brasil> caramba...the same day as mine
<ian_brasil> she must be extremely clever, witty, talented and good looking as this day is reserved for people like this
<agoliveira> ian_brasil: I agree... and my wife, looking over my should at this very moment has absolutely nothing to do with it ... honest
<ian_brasil> ha ha
<HappyCamp> agoliveira, bad news http://www.news.com/iPod-cheap-in-Hong-Kong%2C-but-a-Brazil-bank-breaker/2100-1041_3-6211724.html?tag=nefd.top
<agoliveira> HappyCamp: Not for me. I'll be the last person you will see with an ipod :)
* agoliveira have Nokia 770 and cellphone capable of handling audio and video so why should he cares? :)
<HappyCamp> agoliveira, I found it interesting how expensive that was in Brazil.
<agoliveira> HappyCamp: Yes. The ridiculous taxes have a big role in that but there's also the "cool" factor. Ipod here is a rich kid's toy so the price goes sky high.
<HappyCamp> Ah
<agoliveira> HappyCamp: If you want just play music and videos, there's plenty of cheap no-brand players around.
* HappyCamp has an iPod
<agoliveira> bug #146458
* agoliveira sees that ubutoid is not around here...
<kwwii> so much for working on the theme
<kwwii> again
<kwwii> kinda silly really
<kwwii> blame me on not getting things done
<kwwii> oh well
#ubuntu-mobile 2007-10-05
<dholbach> good morning
<lool> Are build failure handled in all cases by buildd admins or should I do something about them?
<dholbach> MOTU Q&A session in #ubuntu-classroom in 10 minutes
<bspencer> ping debian package masters
<bspencer> I want to create a symbolic link in my rules file
<bspencer> is there a "right" way?
<seb128> do you need it in the rules file?
<bspencer> uh
<seb128> you can use a package.links
<seb128> if that's for a file which gets installed
<bspencer> yes it is
<bspencer> package.links is a new file that gets placed in debian dir
<seb128> yes
<seb128> where package in the name of the binary package shipping the file
<seb128> and the .links contains 
<seb128> real_file_path symlink_file_path
<bspencer> ok.  I'll play with that.  I need to know the final location of the installed package  (e.g. /usr/share/<pkg>/<some folder>
<asac> Mithrandir: there?
<asac> Mithrandir: we have some strange buildd issues... for instance xulrunner-1.9 build was finished, then hanged there and was killed after 150 minutes of inactivity
<asac> Mithrandir: however it was uploaded to NEW
<asac> Mithrandir: same appears to happen with i386 as well now
<asac> Mithrandir: its finished and just sits there ... most likely blocking the buildd
<agoliveira> kwwii: Hi. You're there?
<rustyl> Anyone notice how libgtk2.0-0 is broken?  Attempting to install will fail with:
<rustyl> libgtk2.0-0: Depends: libgtk2.0-common (= 2.12.0-1ubuntu3) but 2.12.0-1ubuntu2 is to be installed
<rustyl> maybe a new version of gtk is in the process of being uploaded?
<rustyl> or half of the related packages were uploaded and one of the packages failed to upload, leaving something like a log jam?
<rustyl> The result is you can not build a new image, so expect the UME nightly to fail
<rustyl> well... unless this is just a transient problem (like a few packages are in-flight into the apt repository)
<rustyl> amitk, should the linux-ubuntu-modules-2.6.22-13-lpiacompat_2.6.22-13.33_lpia.deb package be running a depmod?  The reason the initramfs images are not pulling in the squashfs and unionfs images is because modprobe doesn't know about them (i.e. we are lacking a depmod)
<rustyl> either way... i just fix a bug in image-creator where we are now correctly calling depmod on the target filesystem before creating the install images.  We had a bug that nobody noticed until this new package stopped depmoding.
<amitk> rustyl: Yeah.. it should call depmod in postinst
<amitk> could you run depmod on the target manually, and update-initramfs -u
<rustyl> amitk, after manually running depmod, mkinitramfs correctly creates the initramfs 
<amitk> and that gives you a working system?
<rustyl> yes, i can not boot a usb image and have a workable system (well... other then a gtk package that has a problem)
<amitk> cool
<rustyl> and i just pushed a fix the moblin-image-creator that works around the depmod issue... we intend to always do a depmod (for good measure) before creating a USB image, but we were calling it on the project filesystem instead of the target filestem.  Nobody noticed before because the kernel packages always called depmod in the postinstall
<amitk> rustyl: and they should always call depmod. I am wondering if this happened because I created a single package for lpia, instead of running the mega command that spits out L-U-M for all flavours of Ubuntu
<amitk> I'll check up on that on Monday... late here now.
<rustyl> l8r
<rustyl> for anyone that is following the gtk failures... the new version of libgtk2.0-0 that was breaking new image creation (because libgtk2.0-common depended on it) appears to now be in the apt repository
#ubuntu-mobile 2007-10-06
<bspencer> anyone know why mplayer wouldn't be installable in target image?
<bspencer> I get:
<bspencer> Package mplayer is not available, but is referred to by another package.
<bspencer> This may mean that the package is missing, has been obsoleted, or
<bspencer> is only available from another source
<bspencer> E: Package mplayer has no installation candidate
<rustyl> doesn't look like there is a package called 'mplayer'
<bspencer> hm, curious.
<rustyl> at least on the in lpia repository
<bspencer> apt-get install gnome-mplayer
<bspencer> says:
<bspencer> The following packages have unmet dependencies:
<bspencer>   gnome-mplayer: Depends: mplayer (>= 1.0) but it is not installable
<bspencer> E: Broken packages
<rustyl> i am guessing that the mplayer package broke for the lpia build, but that would be a guess
<bspencer> HappyCamp, you still here?
<bspencer> on the current images with broken sudoers and messed up root pswd, is there a way to get root priveleges?
<bspencer> It logs in as ume and I'm stuck.  
<bspencer> this endless bug is sucking my will to live
<bspencer> when booting can I do something to get into single user mode?
<mjg59> bspencer: Hit escape at grub, hit e, press down arrow, press e, type " init=/bin/bash"
<mjg59> Press b
<bspencer> on the kernel line
<mjg59> Yup
<bspencer> s/on/end of 
<mjg59> Oh, delete the splash argument
<bspencer> too late :)
<bspencer> gracias
<mjg59> Remember to sync after editing files
<mjg59> reboot doesn't shut down cleanly in that mode
<bspencer> good tip
<bspencer> when I run "pswd" it only lets me enter 1 char for the pswd before prompting for "repeat pswd"
<bspencer> no big deal, just curious
<mjg59> You mean passwd?
<bspencer> yeah
<bspencer> and characters aren't echoed to the screen
<mjg59> Weird
<DaftDust> hello
<DaftDust> some one here and have time for questions?
<DaftDust> hello?
<xyzzy_bill> Hey, guys.  Apple just borked my iPhone on purpose, which to me was like a kick in the head... I just totally realized the value of Ubuntu Mobile.
<xyzzy_bill> So, I'm a skilled and prolific C programmer.  Any significant projects that need C programmers right away?  I've got a few hours/week I can donate.
<xyzzy_bill> BTW, the 4.8" minimum screen size spec-ed in the UIStyleGuide is waay too big.  iPhone is 3.5", and quite usable, even as an e-book.
<xyzzy_bill> And geeze... the Blueprint doesn't even have a SIP client at any priority?
<Mithrandir> xyzzy_bill: we're not trying to build a mobile phone.  If you want to help out by getting support for SIP into moblin-chat; help would be appreciated.  Note that upstream empathy (which moblin-chat is based on) doesn't yet have stable SIP support, AIUI.
<wasabi> There's no doubt that what is built gets you part of the way to a mobil phone distro though. Somebody just needs to package openmoko. :)
<Mithrandir> openmoko aren't using hildon, so they won't look very good together
<wasabi> Sure, I mostly speak about the core system stuff. Good power management, quick boot, etc.
<wasabi> Both hildon and openmoko can then be layed on top of that.
<mjg59> wasabi: We have that. It's called Ubuntu.
<wasabi> Hehe.
<xyzzy_bill> But hildon looks very much like a smart phone window manager, doesn't it?  I'd hate to get locked out of most mobile devices, simply because the early specs said to target 4.8" screens instead of 3.5"
<xyzzy_bill> I personally think the iPhone shows that the mobile computing devices and mobile phones will mostly merge in the future.  I think it's worth planning for.  Also, just add a SIP client, and you're half-way to a mobile phone.
<mjg59> Hildon is currently not really practical on portrait displays
<mjg59> It's not designed to work at < 800x480
<tko> xyzzy_bill: hildon doesn't have clearly defined range of form factors at the moment. there is a limit somewhere but it needs someone to go poking around to find it
<suihkulokki> and now for something completely different
<xyzzy_bill> As computing devices continue to shrink, the only reason to keep mobile computing devices large is for the screen.  I think 3.5" is on the small side for practical computing, but on the large side for my pocket...
<suihkulokki> how do I make bzr not conflict on debian/changelog everytime I merge
<tko> don't commit debian/changelog :)
<tko> just like ChangeLog guarantees merge conflicts
<suihkulokki> tko: well both hildon upstream and ume commit changelogs..
<suihkulokki> ..and since bzr is mostly used exactly for maintaining debian/ubuntu packages, I kinda expect somekind of best practice/solution to exist
<mjg59> Merge the changelog by hand?
<tko> resolving changelog conflicts is close to trivial anyway
<tko> just annoying
<mjg59> I don't think there's a trivial way to do it automatically
<tko> if you didn't do line based merge but taught bzr to handle changelog entries as a whole, you could easily make it automatic
<suihkulokki> for arbitary changelogish files yes, but debian/changelog is formatted enough somekind of automatic solution should be easy
<tko> you could also do similar thing for GNU-ish ChangeLogs, just assume ^[a-ZA-Z0-9] begins a new group that should be handled atomically
<corevette> are there any screens of UME yet?
#ubuntu-mobile 2007-10-07
<Vinconzo> hi
<Vinconzo> will ubuntu-mobile ever focus on, some cheaper mobile devices?
<Vinconzo> like pda's?
<wasabi> What's the mean? It's open source. If you want it to run on your particular brand of PDA, just make it so.
<Vinconzo> wasabi, is that hard?
<wasabi> is what hard?
<Vinconzo> porting it to a standard (ARM) PDA
<wasabi> probably not a walk in the park
<Vinconzo> ok
<Vinconzo> nm then
<Vinconzo> i dont even have a pda, but i just thought it would be cool to have an embedded ubuntu device that i can afford
<Vinconzo> but ill just save money for my moped first
<Vinconzo> if id have the money, id get a pda
<suihkulokki> where is the bzr branch for sdk-default-icons ?
<suihkulokki> And can someone add upstream branches for https://stage.maemo.org/svn/maemo/projects/haf/trunk/hildon-input-method/ + hildon-input-method-framework + hildon-input-method-example ?
#ubuntu-mobile 2008-09-29
<ogra-maemo> i'll set up a PPA next week,there we can prepare newer packages... currently i'm still a bit busy getting the images built in the datacenter though
<persia> rhp: You can certainly apt-get install on a live image.  Be warned that you're limited in the size of our changes, because the overlay to the unionfs lives in tmpfs, so if you want a lot of changes, you'll want to do them to the image itself.
<davidm> persia, do you mind if we have a catch up call sometime in the next couple of hours instead of tomorrow?  I'll be in Oregon and it might be easier for me tonight.
<rhp> persia: clear enough. First things first, though. Without wifi I will not get very far. Any idea's why my nic is recognized as wired? In the 'regular' ubuntu releases I never had that problem.
<persia> rhp: It's a different kernel.  I'm not sure why it reports it that way for you.  I'm finding some oddnesses with network interfaces as well.
<rhp> Hm...
<rhp> Since I broke my laptop on de mccaslin image last night, I figure I might as well install 8.10 on it. That opens the possibility to create my own image.
<rhp> I'll be doing that tonight to see if I get any further.
<persia> rhp: Good luck.  Did the mccaslin image not work?
<rhp> As soon as I noticed it started screwing up my partition table I shut down the laptop in hopes of being able to restore it (but no)... after that I didn't try again. Might as well though, since it is broken anyway.
<persia> Yeah.  It's broken now, but it ought have the mccaslin environment installed if you try again.  Sorry for that oddity: it's one of the big things that was changed for intrepid.
<rhp> And rightly so...
<rhp> Anyway, it gives me something to do tonight :)
 * lool waves
<persia> hey lool.
<persia> lool: Do you know much about pygtk?  It seems to be FTBFS on several arches, including lpia, which is blocking a ubiquity build.  I've tried the last few versions uploaded, and they all seem to FTBFS.
<persia> (at least for lpia)
<lool> it built on i386
<lool> It's just the Xvfb breakage again
<persia> Is it?  It looked like API issues to me.
 * persia looks again
<lool> I looked at the amd64 build log
<lool> It seems to die in the testsuite
<lool> After some randr warnings
<persia> Ah, yeah, you're right.  The things I thought were the cause are just warnings.
<lool> I don't think we die if the ts fails, but it seems make gets confused
<lool> Anyway, I bet seb128 is already looking into this
<persia> OK.  It's beta-critical for -mid, as lpia can't be installed until ubiquity is built which can't happen until pygtk has the same version for -dev and lib.
<persia> And indeed he is, judging by -devel :)
<StevenK> Hmmm. Changing the policy of scrolling gives us 5 icons across not 4
<persia> Let's do that, as it ought look nicer.
<StevenK> I was planning on
<persia> I currently have three.  Does that match you?
<persia> I think maybe not.
<StevenK> I'm on a Q1, mind
<persia> That's 1024x600 isn't it?
<persia> I'm getting three across by found down at 1024x600 with vesa-on-psb
<persia> s/found/four/
<StevenK> Yeah, 1024x600.
<StevenK> I'm getting 5 across
<persia> Is the text a little more squashed?  Does the same trick work for thunar as well?
<crevette> heya
<StevenK> No, the text looks okay
<persia> In Thunar I'm getting 4x4.7 or so, but having 5 there as well would be nifty.
<persia> Is the scroll policy thing kourou-specific, or a setting that ought apply more widely?
<StevenK> Kourou specific
<StevenK> It's a GTK-ism I wasn't calling
<StevenK> persia: If you want to see, open kourou.py and add 'scrolled_win.set_policy(gtk.POLICY_NEVER, gtk.POLICY_AUTOMATIC)' below the 'scrolled_win = gtk.ScrolledWindow()' line
<persia> I presume I ought restart kourou after?
<StevenK> Right
<persia> I still get 3x4 for Home, but no scrollbar.
<persia> I get 3x4.2 for All, with a scrollbar
<StevenK> There ought to be one?
<StevenK> (For Home) ?
<persia> There isn't one: no need to scroll.
<persia> There was one before I changed the policy.
 * persia is running today's image, so may be a few hours out of date, and has no working networking, despite a variety of devices that are intended to provide a network
<StevenK> persia: That's the behavior I was intending
<persia> Then it works, but I'm not seeing more icons.  I wonder if there's something funny about my resolution
 * persia reads the logs
<persia> Ah.  Vesa decided to use 800x600 for some reason.  That's the source of my problem.
<StevenK> 800x600 still fitting 12 icons for Home makes me happy
<persia> Yeah.  It's a nice bonus.  Personally, I'd like full resolution, but I'll settle for it not being broken :)
<samjam> any plans for ubuntu mobile on arm eabi yet?
<persia> samjam: It depends on Ubuntu generally.  Currently Ubuntu doesn't have any builds for armel.
<samjam> thanks
<persia> samjam: Unless the practice changes, you can probably expect to find a recompilation of intrepid for arm at mojo.handhelds.org sometime post-release, and you can see if the Ubuntu Mobile build works, but I don't think it's an explicit target for the mojo folk.
<samjam> I didn't know that, thanks!
<persia> samjam: No problem.  I've several arm devices myself :)
<samjam> I see the Hasty ARMv5EL, I may have to try it. I'm using the HTC Universal, do you have one?
<persia> samjam: Nope.  I've Zaurii and kuroboxen.
<persia> (not that kuroboxen are "mobile" in the sense that they work whilst being moved, without heavy modification, but they are armel)
<StevenK> Argh
<persia> ?
 * StevenK is getting defeated by GTK
<StevenK> iconview.window.set_back_pixmap(...) gives AttributeError: NoneType object has no attribute
<StevenK> So iconview.window == None, but why
<lool> persia: I think I've uploaded a fixed pygtk
<persia> lool: I see that, and am very excited.  I have a list of 10 FTBFS that I'd like solved pre-beta, and that's probably the most critical.  Thank you.
<lool> persia: Dunno who will give back the pygtk FTBFSes
<lool> ubiquity is still in the "Failed to build" state
<persia> lool: There's another issue with ubiquity as well, as it also fails on i386.  I expect it will be reviewed in a few hours.
<persia> My.  Repeatedly using a USB stick only as a target for dd results in some interesting partition maps.
<lool> persia: synaptic accepted
<persia> Hrm?  pygtk rdeps?
<ogra> anyone with an opinion on bug 275299 here ? 
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 275299 in ubuntu-mobile-default-settings "ubuntu-mobile-default-settings: better descriptions describing target MIDs" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/275299
 * ogra changed the description for -mobile to:
<ogra> Description: The Ubuntu mobile system
<ogra>  This package depends on all of the packages in the Ubuntu mobile system
<ogra>  Ubuntu Mobile is an alternative to ubuntu-desktop, intended for use on
<ogra>  Ultra Mobile PCs (UMPCs)
<ogra> the description in the bug would make sense for -mid though i think
<persia> No.  That's -mobile.
<lool> persia: Err xf86-synaptic that is
 * lool coffee &
<persia> A "MID" is a special Intel word for the class of devices once known as "PDA", but with more RAM, processor, and local storage.
<StevenK> The description in the bug does sound like mid-default-settings
<persia> lool: Yeah.  That makes more sense :)  I've been playing with it all day: it's a lot easier to work on a device when the pointer can be controlled.
<persia> I don't like listing storage there.  The only device I have with < 10G storage is 4 years old.
<StevenK> And recommended memory? No.
<StevenK> It should list the form-factor
<persia> Right, and clearly differentiate the two.  As much as anything, it's about DPI: "How big is a finger?"
<ogra> right, list touchscreen dependency and screen size
<persia> -mobile works fine without a touchscreen.
<ogra> but it is designed with focus on touchscreens
 * persia tried it on the Kohjinsha, and ignored the miscalibrated touchscreen, and was very happy with the result
<ogra> that will be more noticeable with jaunty though
<ogra> where i.e. gksu will popup cellwriter automatically 
<ogra> and things like that
<persia> Please don't make it not work with a touchpad, trackpoint, or mouse.  I *really* like having the simple, clean interface, but don't want to get fingerprints all over my screen.
<persia> Oh, I'm fine with that, as long as it's done through the accessibility interfaces, and can be disabled by users with touchpads (e.g. Eee users).
<StevenK> persia: Use your nose?
<ogra> or your big toe :)
<StevenK> Heh
<ogra> though we'd have to lower the dpi for that i guess :P
<persia> Bah.  *all* the lpia devices I own have perfectly functional synaptics touchpads.  I don't see why I shouldn't use them.
<StevenK> I see a new standard. Toe-driven interfaces
<ogra> yay
<ogra> the new toe bluetooth keyboard ... at the size of a 37" Tv
<ogra> handsfree computing :)
 * persia can toe-type on 15" keyboard.
<StevenK> ogra: 37 inches? That sounds more like a feet-driven interface
<StevenK> And you get shifted keys by stomping
<ogra> well, your toe or your heel :)
<persia> I like that.  velocity sensitivity for alphanumeric keyboards.
<ogra> persia, do we have a prper fix for the error 15 bug btw ? 
<ogra> hmm, and do we actually have a bug number ? 
<persia> ogra: Yes.  That's sorted.
<ogra> ah
<persia> Yes, and I closed it.
<ogra> k, no number needed
<persia> I actually opened *two* bugs, one for each flavour, but they turned out to be the same problem, so I dup'd them, and StevenK did the necessary adjustment to fix them.  If you build a mobile image somewhere sane, it will work.
<ogra> good
<StevenK> ogra: You need to put the kernel under casper
<ogra> StevenK, yeah, i saw that, but wasnt aware thats enough for the installed system 
<persia> Yeah, it's a hardcoding in ubiquity.
<ogra> ah, k
 * persia fails again at using syslinux, and decides to wait for usb-creator to work
<ogra> ?? its trivil to use ... you just need mtools installed and a syslinux.cfg in the root of the target fs
<persia> Yeah.  I did that.  The result causes a loud beeping noise.
<persia> My procedure was fdisk /dev/sdb; mkfs.vfat /dev/sdb1; mount /dev/sdb1 /tmp/mnt; cp -pRa /mnt/intrepid-desktop-i386/* /tmp/mnt; cp /mnt/ubuntu-mid/syslinux.cfg /tmp/mnt; umount /tmp/mnt; syslinux /dev/sdb1
<ogra> ah
<ogra> dont partition :)
<ogra> syslinux doesnt work on partitions
<persia> Just mkfs.vfat /dev/sdb ?
<ogra> yeah
 * persia tries again, but knows there is supposed to be an easy tool, and wants it to work
<persia> ogra: Thanks.  I'm booting the desktop now.
 * persia may do the same to sort out not being able to boot the ubuntu-mobile image
<ogra> urgh
<ogra> does midbrowser work for anyone with the latest upgrades ? 
<ogra> asac, ^^^
<rabeeh2000> hi all,
<rabeeh2000> i have been trying to build mobile-basic-flash to use xulrunner-1.9
<rabeeh2000> i'v seen all the posts from asac and bob spenser that it's broken
<rabeeh2000> but those posts are from April time frame I was wondering if someone has better clue  how to solve the issue?
<rabeeh2000> basically what i'm seeing is a black window in hildon UI which is the home.html page; but afterwards nothing; as if the javascript: calls are not being executed.
<persia> rabeeh2000: I don't think anyone was able to come up with a good solution.  For intrepid, m-b-f has mostly been replaced with kourou.
<rabeeh2000> any tip would help. thanks
<asac> ogra: what happens?
<persia> Mind you, kourou doesn't support flash or xul, so it may not meet your needs.
<ogra> asac, well, it coredumps pretty quietly if i run it from a termnal
<StevenK> We tried to move m-b-f to xulrunner-1.9 for Hardy, and reverted it
<persia> ogra: midbrowser hasn't worked for me in about a week.
<rabeeh2000> persia: midbrowser works for me using xulrunner-1.9 (both x86 and ARM versions)
<ogra> well, i just tried it for the first time after installing ubuntu-mobile on the Q1 and upgrading 
<persia> (but I've been fiddling with increasingly messy environments, so this may not be indicative)
<ogra> its a fresh intrepid install fully up to date
<persia> rabeeh2000: In the Ubuntu Mobile or Ubuntu MID intrepid development snapshots?
<rabeeh2000> persia: ubuntu mobile from hardy
<asac> ogra: just "core" ... or any other output?
<persia> rabeeh2000: Yeah.  It works fine there.
<ogra-Q1> ogra@ogra-Q1:~$ midbrowser  
<ogra-Q1> pure virtual method called
<ogra-Q1> terminate called without an active exception
<ogra-Q1> Aborted (core dumped)
<ogra-Q1> ogra@ogra-Q1:~$ 
<persia> ogra: Following your instructions gets me to an initramfs prompt, because casper can't find the right disk (it's not /dev/sda, and it's not /dev/scd0, but it's /dev/sdb).  Any suggestions?
<ogra> hmm, note really (phonecall now)
<persia> Oh well.  Thanks.
<rabeeh2000> how can i launch kourou?
<rabeeh2000> i just built it for hardy; how do i integrate it with hildon?
<rabeeh2000> stevenk: sorry for buging you on this; but can you please provide a hint how to launch kourou? is it ready at all in demo level?
<StevenK> rabeeh2000: You need to edit /etc/hildon-desktop/home.conf and home-layout.conf, replacing what's there with the path to kourou.desktop
<ogra> persia, i dont get where you get the passwd/auto-login from ... its not documented anywhere
<persia> It's in user-setup-apply in user-setup.  ubiquity processes it and flips the checkmark.  d-i is used as a prefix so it doesn't get included in the debconf DB on the installed system.
<persia> It ends up doing a bunch of ugly sedery, but if you don't look at the implementation, it works pertty good.
<persia> ogra: Hmm.  Looking at gdm, it doesn't seem to have much in the way of debconf questions.  Sorry.
<persia> Maybe you could add one for jaunty?
<ogra> wel, you said there is a checkbox somewhere for it 
<persia> No, I said there was a checkbox for automatic login.
<ogra> ah, user-setip ... 
<ogra> i should read the backlog first :)
<persia> I was looking for something for timed login.
<persia> (or read my mind in this case, as I lost track of context)
<ogra> it does timed login
<ogra>                                 $log $chroot $ROOT sed -i \
<ogra>                                         -e "s/^AutomaticLoginEnable=.*\$/AutomaticLoginEnable=true/" \
<ogra>                                         -e "s/^AutomaticLogin=.*\$/AutomaticLogin=$USER/" \
<ogra>                                         -e "s/^TimedLoginEnable=.*\$/TimedLoginEnable=true/" \
<ogra>                                         -e "s/^TimedLogin=.*\$/TimedLogin=$USER/" \
<ogra>                                         -e "s/^TimedLoginDelay=.*\$/TimedLoginDelay=10/" \
<ogra>                                         "$GDMCONF"
<ogra> great
<ogra> no problem then
<persia> Oh, cool.  preseed it then.
<ogra> you should just have pointed me there and i wuld have kept quiet ;)
<persia> I don't want you to be quiet.  It's generally too quiet here.  On the other hand, asking me from where something comes may be more useful than asking me about something.
<ogra> yeah, 'ill try to ask more intelligently in the future 
<ogra> i see user-setup even has proper handling for gdm-cdd.conf now :)
<persia> Cool!  I wasn't sure if it handled that, but if it does, you should be completely sorted.
<ogra> geez
 * ogra just closed all apps since the last upgrade and wasnt aware the default wallpaper had changed
<persia> heh.
<rabeeh2000> stevenk: tried changing home.conf and home-layout.conf, and also rebuilt hildon-desktop from interpid http://packages.ubuntu.com/intrepid/hildon-desktop
<rabeeh2000> stevenk: unfortunately this doesn't seem to be good enough; since m-b-f is still being launched
<ogra> uninstall it
 * persia has now successfully installed Ubuntu Desktop on a telephone.  For those watching at home: this is not what you want.
<rabeeh2000> stevenk / ogra - so it works for me now; only few inputs -
<rabeeh2000> 1. got a python backtrace on this -     bgcolour = gtk.gdk.Color("#000000")  --> unclear why python doesn't understand gtk.gdk.Color? gtk version?
<rabeeh2000> 2. unclear why kourou needs - /usr/share/pdk/pixmaps/image-creator-32x32.xpm to run ?
<rabeeh2000> 3. if using standard X-windows with a mouse then double click on any icon doesn't work.
<rabeeh2000> and finally; thanks for saving the day :)
<persia> rabeeh2000: #3 confuses me, as I have had just as much success with mice, touchpads, remote screen access (vnc), virtual mice, and touchscreens to launch applications.
<persia> For #1, you're running this in intrepid, or backported to hardy?
 * ogra guesses 2) is just a hardcoded path in the .desktop file (which is a big nono but wouldnt surprise me with MIC)
<rabeeh2000> persia: for #1 it's a backport for hardy
<rabeeh2000> persia: for #3, i'll check it right now with Xephyr
<ogra> gtk.gdk.Color is there since ages
<ogra> shouldnt be the issue
<ogra> probably you need to import gdk separately in hardy
<rabeeh2000> ogra: for #1; the error message - TypeError: an integer is required
<rabeeh2000> ogra: i'll try doing that too. thanks for the tip
<ogra> well, i think you need gtk.gdk.color_parse()
<ogra> not sure though, i avent seen the kouru code but have a nearly identical app here 
<ogra> where i use the abov eline instead
<persia> rabeeh2000: Might be a Xephyr thing, but it does work for me for intrepid for real HW and KVM.
<ian_brasil> ogra: does accessibility work with the theme on ubuntu-mobile.img or didn't you try that
#ubuntu-mobile 2008-09-30
<persia> ian_brasil: What's the best way to check if accessibility works?  I'd like to have accessible input working for the no-keyboard use case.
<ian_brasil> persia: well i install python-dogtail to check..not sure if this is the best way 
<ian_brasil> this needs the accessibility layer working
<ian_brasil> if everythin is working well then 
<ian_brasil> >>> import pyatspi
<ian_brasil> >>> reg = pyatspi.Registry
<ian_brasil> >>> print reg.getDesktopCount()
<ian_brasil> 1
<ian_brasil> >>> desktop = reg.getDesktop(0)
<ian_brasil> >>> print len(desktop)
<ian_brasil> 0
<ian_brasil> this last value will not be 0 and the apps are registering themselves to the acc layer
<rhp> so, having installed ubuntu intrepid (and windows xp again), I just tried to create an updated image. However it seems I'm out of luck these days, as it could not get to completion.
<rhp> I got a crash in the mksquashfs process.
<rhp> Any ideas whether 8.04 will also give me a system where I can update images? intrepid seems a bit over the edge for me...
<persia> ian_brasil: I see, so it's a registration thing.  Hrm.  That sounds fairly complicated, as the only actually running process is supposed to be hildon-desktop: the other apps aren't that independent
<persia> (and sorry for the delay: my network was having a bad day)
<persia> rhp: How are you creating an updated image?
<rhp> using a script I found on ogra-maemo's blog.
<rhp> Or somwhere else... I do not remember.
<rhp> Reading through it, it seemed logical enough...
<persia> rhp: OK.  I'm not sure why it would crash.  There are new daily images available each day, and rsync seems to be smart about the bandwidth of updates.  This is the method I tend to use.
<rhp> rsync?
<rhp> You don't just have the update manager update your system?
<persia> I reinstall my system 5-6 times a day, but my use is certainly not normal.
<persia> You got a crash with update manager?  Running a live session, or post-install?
<rhp> I got a couple of crashes actually. One running update manager -- telinit crashed.
<rhp> One while updating het mid image -- in mksquashfs... but the crashreport message was quite busy...
<rhp> Both post-install
<rhp> You do not happen to know whether 8.04 also works for updating the image?
<lool> Cool, -mid doesn't prompt on boot anymore
<persia> lool: But grub doesn't get installed :/
<persia> It's stuck live for now.  Trivial to fix Friday.
<persia> So, I've been looking at the forums to try to figure out where to point people for Ubuntu Mobile.
<persia> It was suggested that "Hardware & Laptops" might be the right place.  Apparently, it's possible to get some "prefix" for Ubuntu Mobile stuff (I still need to track down what that means, and how).
<persia> Anyone have any thoughts on that, or ideas?
<lool> persia: Hey could you tell me more about the grub issue?
<lool> StevenK: Could you drop the union=unionfs thingy some isolinux.cfg?
<lool> StevenK: or syslinux.cfg
<lool> StevenK: Only for -mid though
<lool> amitk: Thakns for the aufs update in linux-lpia; works like a charm; when it the one in -generic landing?
<lool> amitk: This would fix the issues with the -mobile images
<persia> lool: ubiquity now supports grub for installs, but /usr/lib/ubiquity/ubiquity/components/grubinstaller.py isn't installed on lpia.
<lool> persia: Is it too late to fix this?
<persia> Basically, I fixed the code, and tested the code patch, but failed to fix and test the packaging.
<persia> Basically.  I have a local fix, but as I don't yet have the icon for it, and it means *everyone* else needs to rebuild their disks and start testing from scratch again, I think it's not enough to push.
<persia> I've not actually spoken with the testing and release teams, aside from a quick, retracted, query to the installer team.
<persia> While I'm at it, I'm adding support for ntfs partition mounting, which is probably interesting for those with Windows installed on the devices.
<lool> persia: Can be get the fix in ubiquity now, and hope they have another reason for an upload before beta?
<amitk> lool: talking to kernel/distro folks to see if aufs can be updated in a kernel upload
<lool> amitk: What's your current list again?  lrm-lpia and then?
<persia> lool: Likely.  The plan is to push a branch for review by the installer team within the next few hours.  Whether there is an upload or not isn't something I really want to push.
<lool> amitk: ath5k doesn't seem too far from working   :-/
<persia> amitk: Any ideas for bug #274704?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 274704 in linux-lpia "Wireless network interface not recognised" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/274704
<amitk> lool: after aufs to base kernel, there is lrm (almost done)
<lool> Ok
<ian_brasil> persia: Nokia recently opened the repo to the Hildon Test Automation project http://hildon-test-aut.garage.maemo.org/...there are scratchbox i386 debs in the repo so it should be possible to get it working on MID
<persia> ian_brasil: Nifty.  Is it only i386, or also armel?  It may be that my Zaurus is a better testbed for that.
<ian_brasil> there are armel debs too https://garage.maemo.org/svn/hildon-test-aut/trunk/ 
<persia> ian_brasil: I'm currently a bit caught up with the fact that I need to recover from some mistakes from last week, but thanks for the pointers.  I'm definitely going to try to have a play with that.
<ian_brasil> np..i had it working on scratchbox a while back ..the i386 debs on lpia complained about hildon-fm or hildon-1 if i remember correctly
<ian_brasil> is the intention to have an ubuntu-mobile iso on http://iso.qa.ubuntu.com/ or does that not make much sense
<persia> ian_brasil: I've just been discussing having it there with the testing team.  We're a little late for beta, but if we prepare some test cases in the next couple days, we can be there for RC.
<persia> ian_brasil: Are there any specific test cases you think should be added, or do you think we're good with just the basic install testing as an initial set, and we can add more once we have some specified features, etc.?
<ian_brasil> persia: that is great news. i have been looking at the Basic, Advanced and Compliance test and maybe we should agree upon some targtes for the compliance tests?
<ian_brasil> i ran LSB last night but it seems very based towards rpm
 * ogra would appreciate QA testing
<persia> That's a *lot* of tests, and I'm not sure we can hit them all.
<ogra> but i guess its hard to find devices
<ogra> (in the QA team that is)
<ian_brasil> the current stats are:
<persia> QA team is highly fluid.  If there are users, there will be QA team members.
<ian_brasil> With platform in Hibernate state, time from user pressing power on button to desktop UI being fully responsive <= 16 sec 
<ian_brasil> Time from user pressing sleep button to platform going to S3 state (not just display going blank) <= 7 sec 
<ian_brasil> With platform in S3 state, time from user pressing wake-up button to desktop UI being fully responsive <= 7 sec 
<ian_brasil> When the platform is Cold booted (i.e. when device probe, etc is required), the time from user pressing power on button to desktop UI being fully responsive <= 37 sec
<ogra> 7sec doesnt look so bad
<persia> What HW?  Which image?
<ogra> i would rarely expect a real boot
<persia> Yeah.  Real boots are for people with HW that doesn't support hibernate.
<ogra> well, even hibernate is for whimps :P
<persia> And hibernate is for people with HW that uses too much power in suspend.
<ogra> just have a big enough battery in your device 
<persia> Well, I have one laptop with a 40 minute runtime with the stock battery (no, I've never used the stock battery, and don't intend to do so).  For this, I think hibernate beats suspend.
<ogra> i had pondered initially to disable hibernate in ubuntu-mobile 
 * ogra tests the latest mobile image ... hopefully we have mouse and kbd back
<persia> It also depends on the device.  For one of my laptops, I'm not supposed to connect/disconnect the port replicator without another pass through the BIOS.  I haven't quite figured out why, and the manufacturer carefully doesn't support Linux on this model (they do for other models, but haven't done the internal testing for this one)
<persia> ogra: You regenerated the image?
<ogra> after the meta change, indeed
<ogra> 30.1 should be better 
<persia> ian_brasil: For initial tests, I had planned Install (auto-resize), Install (entire-disk), Install (manual partitioning), and Live Session.  Do you think we need a deeper set at this point?
<persia> ogra: Refreshing.  No idea if I'll get to a test cycle tonight though: I need to sort the default password.
<ogra> YAY
<ogra> mouse, touchscreen kbd and joystick all work
<ian_brasil> persia: No, that sounds Ok to me
<persia> ian_brasil: I'm all for more testing, but right now we seem to have, at most, maybe 10 people actively involved, which makes me not want to add too much extra burden to everyone.
<persia> Mind you, if I can ever figure out how the forums work, and the people from the mailing list go to the forums, that might change, but I've not yet found the right set of information.
<ian_brasil> persia: right...i like the idea of the tragtes to try to aim for like fottprint 500MB , memory 192MB etc
<ian_brasil> s/tragtes/targets
<ian_brasil> s/fottprint/footprint
 * ian_brasil hates his new keyboard
<persia> Footprint 500MB!  I don't think we're anywhere near there, nor has that been one of the things I've been watching.
<persia> For -mobile, I think it's safe to look at >4G, >384MB.  For -mid, maybe >2G, >256MB, but less than that will require a lot of changes.
<persia> OK.  Forum setup now in responsible hands.  We should have forums later in the week sometime.
<ogra> for mobile/mid ?
<ogra> cool, who will read them ? 
 * ogra is not a forums guy
<persia> Erm.  I was hoping one of the people who said "cool" when I announced it :)  Maybe we'll get better response from the mailing list, when it's all sorted.
<ogra> heh
<persia> Maybe I'll read it occasionally, but since I live on IRC, I doubt I'll give it the attention it needs.
 * ogra lives on mailing lists and IRC
<persia> Yeah.  I hear email is the coming wave in communication :)
<ian_brasil> persia: plus testing of the main apps too like xournal, liferea ..this is a good candidate for automation hence the dogtail question earlier
<ogra> persia, really ? i thought twitter replaces IRC and mail together :)
<persia> ogra: :)
<ian_brasil> i am a little unclear ..exactly what parts of hildon does ubuntu-mobile use? ..if nothing then dogtail should just work on ubuntu-mobile 
<ogra> nothing :)
<ogra> ubuntu-mobile is plain gnome with different desktop setup and themeing
<ogra> well, if you call midbrowser hildon that might count though :P
<persia> I'm not sure it's worth running dogtail testing against each image, but perhaps running throughout the cycle as a source of bugs would make sense.
<ian_brasil> well dogtail only works with the plain gnome desktop session so now it depends on what you did to the theme!
<ogra> differnet panel layout, different applet layout on the panels ...
<ogra> and pure gtkrc changes
<ogra> nothing fancy that should get in your way
 * ian_brasil is still waiting for ubuntu-mobile.img to download so he can play with it
<ogra> the 30.1 one seems good 
<ian_brasil> does it use compiz?
<ogra> apart from the broken browser and missing autologin preseeding
<ogra> yup
<ian_brasil> ogra: then it will not work
<ogra> ah
<ogra> well, you can switch to metacity
<ian_brasil> ah great
<ogra> its the same desktop ubuntu-desktop uses
<ogra> apart from the tweaks mentioned above
<persia> Which means the same HW requirements as Ubuntu Desktop (>4G, >384MB)
<ogra> well, i might cut down the default app selection a bit 
<ogra> so we get to 2-3G
<ogra> and 256M with intrepid ;)
<ogra> we have compcache by default now
<ogra> 384 was only for the heavy reqirements of the livecd
<ian_brasil> persia: the idea is to set up scripts for all the main applications and just run them automatically
<persia> ian_brasil: Right.  I think it's good to do that.  I'm just not sure if I want the release managers asking "Why haven't you had four independent dogtail runs for Alpha 3 yet?" in January.
<persia> In summary; Yeah!  Let's dogtail it.  Let's just not make that a QA requirement for release until we can pass.
<ian_brasil> i would suggest a dogtail run after the debian merge to catch regressions and then one for the Beta maybe
<persia> I think we can be more agreesive than that.  I think one at DIF, one a FF, one at Beta, and one at RC is probably sensible.
<persia> I don't think we need multiple runs per milestone.
<persia> So, roughly, late January, late February, mid March and mid April.
<persia> (unless someone monkeys more with the release schedule than I expect)
<ian_brasil> that seems sane..it gives some time to actually write the scripts too...not that that is particularly difficult
<persia> ian_brasil: Would you mind adding that to the list of tentative jaunty specs?
<ian_brasil> persia: ok
<persia> Thanks!
<ogra> hmm, no bluetooth on the Q1 
<ogra> at least i dont see a single device there
<persia> No BT!  That's unfortunate.  You need a dongle.
<ogra> hmm, the n800 doesnt see my headset either 
<ogra> weird
 * ogra just bought a bunch of BT devices so he can test
<persia> ogra: Did you get any USB network or USB serial devices?  I haven't figured out how to test those with my collection.
<persia> s/USB/BT/g
<ogra> no
<ogra> a headset and a gps reciever
<ogra> and by end of the week i'll get a freedom keyboard
<ogra> BT as well
<ogra> but i wonder why the Q1 doesnt see anything
<ogra> is our BT stack so broken ? 
<persia> Yes.  It's completely broken.  Either install crevette's 0.28 (maybe applying mterry's patch for the pairing wizard), or use the ~bluetooth PPA for superm1's work on 4.x
<persia> The former only fixes a couple of things, the latter seems to work fairly well (at least for my equipment)
<ogra> are we likely to get either into intrepid ? 
<ogra> seems serious to me that we show the BT applet but it has no function at all
<persia> Yes.  slangasek is watching activity on the 4.x stack work, and 0.28 will be pushed as backup if it is deemed unsuccessful.
<ogra> ah, good
<persia> Excellent.  You can upload then :)
<ogra> after beta i guess
<persia> Yes, after beta.  StevenK and superm1 were chasing the rdepends earlier.  I'm planning a cycle retest once I can figure out how to preseed blank passwords.
<ogra> cjwatson should be able to help you
<ogra> (and tell you if it works at all)
<ogra> might be thats not possible due to security considerations
<persia> No, it's possible.  I have suggestions.  I'm just not quick with debconf and state machines yet.
<ogra> oh, sweet, maemomapper works with google sattelite maps
<lool> StevenK: Could you please remove the empty password for the user from preseeded data?
<lool> StevenK: This isn't working, so this will at least allow to install with a password prompt
<persia> lool: No point.  The empty stuff is ignored.
<lool> persia: Oh so you tried and it's ignored
<persia> StevenK: Please don't bother to change that: it will complicate me fixing it, and has no negative impact in the current state.
<persia> lool: Yes, that's why I'm trying to hack user-setup to accept more preseeding options.
<lool> persia: That's fine
<lool> I'm asking because cjwatson wanted me to test it, and it saves me the testing
<persia> Essentially, --automatic doesn't work.  If there is a ubiquity upload, the install works.  cjwatson's latest bzr changes were byte-for-byte compatible with my branch (although independently generated)
<persia> What were you asked to test?
<lool> Removing the preseeded data to see whether I can install
<persia> With which version of ubiquity?
<lool> Ok, I think everything is quite confused
<lool> Allow me to take a deep breath and recap
<persia> Yeah.  What are you trying to accomplish?
<lool> a) I understand installer is currently broken due to some grub-ish problem specific to lpia b) you tell me some hours earlier today you'd fix this today c) this is fixed in upstream ubiquity d) cjwatson and you weren't sure this fix was useful to upload as some other thing I didn't know about (empty password string) is also breaking something
<lool> I don't know much avec the breakage in d), I seem to understand that preseeding "" will be refused in the same way that an empty password would be refused if entered by the user
<lool> Anyway, it seems cjwatson was suggesting I should test whatever I'd like to test to fix the password issue d) before he uploads ubiquity
<persia> The reason the install fails is because the ubiquity grub-installer controller wasn't included in the lpia build.
<lool> But then he decided it was easy enough to upload ubiquity
<lool> Also, one of the proposed fixes to test was to remove the value from the preseeded data, but it seems this would get us exactly the same behavior
<lool> At this point, I don't think I have anything else to do
<persia> Oh.  OK.  In that case, I'll stop fussing with the password thing, and do the casper hack to put in the .desktop file for the non-automatic install with ubiquity 0.10.2.
<persia> No, telling me that there's going to be a new ubiquity (which I hadn't heard), is the key thing you needed to do.
<persia> It changes what I'm doing tonight.  I'll take a walk, clear my head, and do the other hack to add the Install icon to kourou *only* in the live environment.
<persia> That needs a change to the image build, but ought to be able to be done for images tomorrow.
<persia> I'm just not confident I'm going to absorb enough information about debconf to complete the password trick before I get too tired.
<lool> persia: So --automatic breaks if there's a question which hasn't been preseeded such as the password?
<persia> No, it's just insufficiently automatic, and the user has to enter a password, and then there is a password, which means that users without keyboards can't use admin tools, which is annoying.
<persia> The fix is to enable the accessibility infrastructure, and get the input tools to use that for input, but that's *not* going to happen for intrepid.
<lool> persia: I don't understand why you want to add a desktop file for non-automatic install then?
<lool> persia: Is it because the current keyboard doesn't allow typing in e.g. gksu?
<persia> Oh, right.  I suppose I could do it in automatic.  Doesn't matter.  I'm just not thinking as clearly as I might.
<persia> The reason that we don't want a password is because the current keyboard doesn't allow typing in e.g. gsku, yes.
 * ogra thinks thats rather a gksu issue
<persia> That said, there's no reason for me to set it for non-automatic mode, because it works with --automatic, just not the way I want, because I can't preseed the blank password.
<ogra> it should provide hooks for a11y apps
<persia> ogra: Nope, because you can use a11y tools with gksu in -desktop.
<ogra> yeah, -g might help
<persia> ogra: The issue is that the a11y stuff isn't set up for -mid: ian_brasil has been complaining about this for some time.
<lool> persia: So, with the new ubiquity we should get installable images starting tomorrow, except we will have to type a password and this will be a pain with gksu, correct?
<ian_brasil> :)
<ogra> well, make the gksu call in your .desktop file use gksu -g
<ogra> then your input isnt totally locked
<lool> And what remains TBD is that ubiquity needs to be launched by hand, and you're working on the casper bits to show a menu entru?
<persia> lool: Yes, and the last bit waits on me sorting the password as a hack for intrepid, and we can look more agressively at a11y for jaunty.
<ogra> if you have an onscreen kbd it will work
<ogra> i just tested with cellwriter
<persia> lool: Right, after I take a walk, I'll add the .desktop file.
<persia> ogra: In -mid?
<ogra> no, on my laptop
<ogra> but it doesnt matter
<persia> ogra: Yes it does.  Remember, all apps run *inside* hildon-desktop.
<ogra> if you have a kbd that can be used for text input using -g with gksu will give you the ability to use it
<persia> Well, that didn't work for me for update-manager for hardy.
<ogra> did you try with -g ? 
<persia> Yes.
<persia> I haven't tried with -g in intrepid.  Maybe it's different.
<ogra> GEEZ !
<ogra> gksu even has a gconf setting for taht
 * ogra adds that to ubuntu-mobile-default-settings
<ogra> yay
<ogra> keyboard input prob solved :D
<ogra> why
<ogra> didnt
<lool> Ok folks, I'll leave there for today
<ogra> i 
 * lool waves
<ogra> look that up earlier
<ogra> ciao lool 
<ogra> yippie, that WORKS !
<persia> I need a filename that is guaranteed to exist *only* for ubuntu-mid images.  Anyone disagree that /usr/share/ubuntu-mid-default-settings/mid-gui-start might be such a file?
<persia> Or maybe I don't.  Hrm.
<lool> persia: /usr/share/doc/ubuntu-mid/?
<persia> Grr.  I hate it when I spend hours troubleshooting something and find out that someone already fixed it months ago, and the documentation is out of date.
<lool> ah eh
<lool> I didn't do it!
<persia> lool: No.  I just found a bug in kourou: for some reason it isn't showing the install icon.  That's the only missing bit to everything working for the non-automatic way.
 * lool goes in non-computer mode for tonight now
<persia> If we want to go automatic, we need to add a stanza to casper-bottom/10adduser to sed the .desktop file or something, but that's not beta critical.
<persia> Good night lool.
<persia> ogra: Just for double-confirmation, everything looks good for me in the latest -mobile image.
<persia> StevenK: What's your feeling about adding ubiquity.desktop to Home?  How about Preferences?  It is currently parsed by Settings, but I think we're ignoring that menu, from what I can tell.  Separately, do you think we want to enable anything in settings.menu?  (And, yes, I don't mind waiting several hours for an answer)
<ogra-maemo> persia, thanks
<persia> ogra: One odd bit is that the close icon is third from the right, to the left of the brightness and volume controls.  Is it that way for you?
<persia> Perhaps because I'm running at 800x600 right now?
<ogra-maemo> hmm, yeah, likely... we can play with the setup after beta
<persia> OK.  Do you want a bug for this, or is it just because I'm using a resolution no longer in vogue?
<ogra-maemo> you cann force applets to the very right
<persia> Well, I have to unlock them before I can move them, but if we can force hint it, I think the experience would be better.
<ogra-maemo> i'm not sure it will work, but we can try
<persia> OK.  I need to get some network adaptor on this working somehow :/  At the current time, it's *really* hard to send screenshots.
<rhp_> I'm not getting anywhere with building an image myself in intrepid. Seems as if intrepid is both slow and buggy, could this be true?
<rhp_> Running the latest standard image still gives me no wifi, so let's try to get that figured out. What would I do to get that fixed?
<persia> rhp_: You're starting with a standard intrepid daily image?  This is -mid or -mobile?  (my apologies: it's late here, and my memory isn't what it ought be)
<rhp_> -mid from cdimage.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-mid/intrepid/current/
<persia> OK.  And you have *no* wireless.  Have you tried booting the same machine with an i386-based flavour?
<persia> I think it's probably bug #274832, but if you might have a different bug of the class of bug #274704.
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 274832 in mobile-meta "no linux-restricted-modules for lpia flavour" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/274832
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 274704 in linux-lpia "Wireless network interface not recognised" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/274704
<persia> If it's 274832, booting an i386 based flavour (e.g. -mobile) should have wireless.  If you can confirm this, then you're just waiting for packages that were last reported to be available "soon".
<persia> If it's something like 274704, you'll need to collect information about the hardware, and post it to a bug.  If you can find a working wireless driver on the net somewhere, and point to it, that might happen faster.
<rhp_> I doubt whether it is 274704, because the wifi nic is recognised, just not as a wifi card. The system thinks it is a wired card.
<rhp_> So, am I correct that -mobile is for i386 devices and -mid is not?
<persia> Well, the images that are available today happen to match those architectures.
<persia> That's largely in part due to what was tested for what when, etc.  I hope we'll see both flavours architecture-neutral for jaunty.
<persia> Current -mobile is built for i386 and current -mid is built for lpia.
<persia> That said, I have an lpia device that works better with -mobile.  While I don't own one, I know of i386 devices that would be better with -mid.
<rhp_> ok, confusing world
<persia> At this point in time, the architectures haven't differentiated enough that you can't run i386 on lpia or lpia on (most) i386.  I don't know about the future.
<rhp_> I'll have a go with -mobile. Currently I'm looking whether X will play nice with the fpit driver, which I got installed in the mean time.
<persia> There's also a special kernel for lpia, the "lpiacompat" flavour, that allows one to run lpia on i586.  I don't know how well it works (I don't have any i586).
<persia> You got -fpit to work!  Excellent.  Did you need to do anything special?
<rhp_> I got fpit installed. Looking now whether it actually works.
<rhp_> Aparently not directly, but I might have to tweak xorg.conf a bit...
<persia> WIth the new Xinput2 hotplug, I suspect you'll need to feed HAL a .fdi file to make it work properly.  You may be able to hardcode stuff in xorg.conf, but there's some reports of that not working for some devices.
<rhp_> oh, good to know.
<rhp_> persia: it seems that none of the changes I made locally running ubuntu-mid (on the laptop) got stored during a reboot. That is correct?
<rhp_> another silly question: since I cannot boot directly from usb stick, I need to copy the kernel and initrd.img of the hd first before I can boot. Would it also be possible to boot from pxe? That might make setting up the thing much easier. Then I can just put in a network cable for now...
<rhp_> From the sight of it, that should be easy enough...
<rhp_> I'm really having to get used to finding keyboards and not doing everything over ssh again ;-)
<persia> You ought be able to boot from PXE, and it ought to work.
<rhp_> Nice.
<rhp_> ok, trying -mobile now...
<persia> Any changes are lost on reboot.  There is a persistent mode to keep data between reboots.  It's something like that documented at https://help.ubuntu.com/community/LiveCD/Persistence?action=show&redirect=LiveCDPersistence
<persia> My memory is that the image is persistent by default, so you can skip the bit about using F6.
<rhp_> ah, ok. That was wat persistent was for... I skipped that when I created the grub bootline. I knew I should not have...
<rhp_> Things are looking good! the -mobile version (which looks awesome, by the way) recognizes my wifi card just fine.
<persia> OK.  Then you are probably hitting 274832, which is in progress, and ought be fixed soon.
<persia> Which Stylistic did you have again?
<rhp> So then... there I am!
<rhp> Great work, to you all...
<ogra-maemo> grr, Q1 wlan doesnt work after suspend
<persia> rhp: Also, if you like -mobile for your size and resolution, the install works.  For -mid, it ought work with the next image respin.
<rhp> respin is not the same as nightly build, I guess.
<rhp> I kinda liked the user interface that -mid offers, can I enable that in -mobile too?
<rhp> Although the graphics look way cool in -mobile.
<persia> Not really.  The reason -mobile is i386 and -mid is lpia is because of some compilation differences between -mid and -mobile that need to get cleaned up.
<rhp> But after that it would be possible?
<persia> Anyway, subscribe to bug #274832: when it gets closed, you can switch back to -mid, and still have wireless.
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 274832 in mobile-meta "no linux-restricted-modules for lpia flavour" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/274832
<rhp> ok, I'll do that.
<persia> Yeah, after that it will be possible to switch between -mid and -mobile for any architecture, although there might be some leftover packages in either direction.
<rhp> Funny though that it does recognise it as a wired nic...
<ogra-maemo>  The reason -mobile is i386 and -mid is lpia is because i'm lazy :)
<persia> But that's a jaunty thing: I'm guessing it will be in decent shape in February or so.
<persia> ogra-maemo: It's not just you: some other people were lazy too.
 * persia included
<rhp> ok. First thing I'll do now is setup pxe-boot, so I can use the usb stick to install to.
<rhp> I just tried to install -fpit, but apt-get update already ran out of space...
<rhp> For now... time to go to bed.
<rhp> See you again tomorrow.
#ubuntu-mobile 2008-10-01
<StevenK> persia: Hm. Not sure where to add it.
<persia> StevenK.  I'm thinkining "Home" is the right place, just for prominnence.
<StevenK> persia: Which gives us 13 icons for a live system, and 12 for an installed system
<persia> StevenK: OK.  You've convinced me.  Preferences.
<StevenK> persia: Preferences doesn't sound like the right place, either ..
<StevenK> persia: But, it sounds like the best solution currently
<persia> Those are the only two places over which we currently have hardcodig control.
<StevenK> Exactly why I said "best solution currently"
<persia> Well, I suppose we could change merge.menu, and have a special "Install" for Install.
<StevenK> We could. Less work to add ubiquity.desktop or something to Preferences
<persia> Yeah.  Did you have any plans to do anything with settings.menu, or just point vaguely at preferences.menu and wave your hands until Jaunty?
<StevenK> The latter, really, given how late we are
<persia> Sounds good to me.  I just wanted to check :)
<StevenK> It's ubiquity.desktop?
<persia> Yep.  /usr/share/applications/ubiquity.desktop.
<persia> There's also a /home/ubuntu/Desktop/ubiquity.desktop, but I think we can ignore that one.
<StevenK> Will <Include> cry if the .desktop doesn't exist?
<persia> Hrm.  No idea.
 * persia checks
<persia> When I add <Filename>santa.desktop</Filename> to the Include set in the applications.menu in -mobile, running xdg.Menu.parse() doesn't complain.
<persia> I also remember that when I installed kourou on -desktop, it only had three items in Home, but worked.
<persia> Conclusion: it's safe to <Include> stuff that isn't there.
<persia> StevenK: Next question: for setting --automatic: I was thinking that adding a sed call to scripts/casper-bottom/10adduser within an if clause would be the best way to tweak the ubiquity.desktop file.  Would that make sense to you, or do you think it belongs somewhere else?
<StevenK> persia: To do what?
<persia> To change "ubiquity --desktop %k gtk_ui" into "ubiquity --automatic --desktop %k gtk_ui"
<persia> Also, it appears I misled you earlier.  It's "/usr/share/applications/ubiquity-gtkui.desktop".  Sorry about that.
<StevenK> I was going to throw a diff first
<StevenK> Hm. That strikes me as non-elegant
<persia> I thought it might.  How would you recommend solving it?
<StevenK> Nothing springs to mind, so I think it's it
<persia> OK.  My other thoughts were things like a special ubiquity binary package or a ubuntu-mid-install-helper binary package, but lool pointed out that both of those needed NEW, and were ugly anyway.
<persia> For Jaunty, I'd like someone to hit ubiquity with glade and make a UI that works at 640x480 or 800x480, but I failed in my attempts to do that in July.
<persia> The *SUPER DIRTY QUICK HACK* way to do it is to have a special casper-rw overlay with a different file, but that strkes me as even more inelegant.
<StevenK> Shiver
<StevenK> persia: Just do the sed hackery :-P
<StevenK> persia: --automatic works now?
<persia> Yeah, I didn't think you'd like that.  It was one of those ideas that came to me right before I decided not to be in front of the computer for a few hours.
<persia> Well, for some definitions of "work".  With ubiquity 0.10.1 or later, it does the install, but since there is currently no support for preseeding blank passwords, it doesn't achieve the effect I want.
<StevenK> 1.10.1?
<persia> Mind you, due to foolishness on my part, we need ubiquity 0.10.2 for grub to be installed with the result.
<persia> Yeah, 1.10.1 includes the fixes for bug #182004
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 182004 in ubiquity "partitioner fails if partially preseeded due to seen flag madness" [Medium,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/182004
<StevenK> \o/
<persia> That was the blocker on using --automatic at all.  Of course, since that was broken, I didn't discover that user-setup doesn't support preseeding blank passwords until recently.  I'm expecting to find a solution to that today, and have it agressively tested tomorrow, but I don't consider it important for beta: we'll just have passwords.
<StevenK> persia: Are you going to patch casper?
<persia> StevenK: I've already done so, but there's no benefit unless I can patch user-setup, and make sure both work together, so it lives locally.
<persia> Essentially, the only screen we want --automatic to hide can't be hidden until we can preseed blank passwords.
<StevenK> persia: http://paste.ubuntu.com/52692/
<persia> Those both look sane to me.  Does the icon appear for you in the Preferences menu if you use that?
<StevenK> Like I tested it :-P
<StevenK> Let me do that
 * persia is currently testing beta candidates, but can boot -mid to check if needed.
<StevenK> rsync, I thought you were supposed to be fast
<seps1816> does anyone know if i can get this to work on a sidekid id?
<persia> seps1816: From a brief look, I can't tell what chipset that uses.  I suspect it's not x86 compatible, which at least means porting stuff if you really want to get it installed.  If someone already has a HOWTO about getting linux on there, that's probably a good place to start.
<persia> That said, it appears to have 240x160 resolution, which is below the lowest anyone has ever considered for Ubuntu MID.
<seps1816> ya thats what i figured i'd like to try out ubuntu mobile but it seems all i can get my hands on are sidekicks
<seps1816> do u have an suggestions on a phone that would work well 
<persia> I only know of one "phone" on which it can be installed, and that has an optional accessory handset that is larger than some phones to use instead of using this "phone" as a phone.  You don't want to install Ubuntu MID on a phone (I've done this: really you *don't* want to).
<persia> Ubuntu MID is designed for little handhelds.  Examples would be the Aigo MID or the Sharp D4.
<seps1816> ya i hear ya 
<persia> Ubuntu Mobile is designed for slightly larger systems, like the newer Eees, or the Samsung Q1U, or the Kohjinshas.
<seps1816> probably better off messing around with android 
<persia> Yeah, for that form factor.  Maybe someday there will be a flavour of Ubuntu for phones, but not today.
<seps1816> ya that would be pretty sweet 
<persia> Well, if you're really interested, and you can get ubuntu-minimal running on some phone that's worth calling a "phone" rather than a "small laptop with a voice network access device", you'd be 60% of the way there.  Until someone does that, it's very unlikely that any more work can be done.
<persia> (An example of the sort of thing I consider a "small laptop with a voice network access device" would be the HTC Shift)
<seps1816> ya its been something ive recently started to look into 
<seps1816> with all the new cell phones coming out
 * lool waves
<rhp_> Today I installed 8.04.1 in an effort to be able to create modified images. However also here I get an error wihle building squashfs. Somehow it made gdm crash (I was suddenly confronted with the login screen), so I tried on a console instead.
<rhp_> After running for a while I get the error "qlzma_in: ZLIB data error   FATAL_ERROR:get_fragment:1258: res -3".
<rhp_> that's the end of it.
<rhp_> I'm slowly beginning to get the feeling that the problem might lie in my computer overheating, or something similar...
<rhp_> This seems to be confirmed by the fact that it happens at random times during the process.
<rhp_> *sigh*
<lool> rhp_: Not pretty
<lool> rhp_: What's your goal?  create modified images?
<lool> Of mobile?
<lool> rhp_: There are scripts to edit squashfs images, is that what you were using?
<ogra> it is dveloped on 8.10 though ... no idea if it will work with hardy
 * ogra doesnt think anyone ever tested that
<crevette> wow, bluez 4.x and related are a moving target
<crevette> a new release every 2 days 
<rhp_> lool: yes, that was my purpose.
<rhp_> ogra: it seems to work just fine with hardy.
<rhp_> The problem with gutsy is that squashfs-tools isn't recent enough. But it is in hardy.
<rhp_> Now only if my system would stop overheating...
<ogra> ah, great to hear
 * ogra headdesks ... stupid typos
<lool> headdesk?
<ogra> yeah
<ogra> i made a silly typo ...
<ogra> now it takes another 2h to get the gconf change in
<ogra> heddesking, like banging your head on your desk to beat out the stupidity :)
<ogra> *head even
<rhp_> A question: is it also possible to extract the right stuff from the image and boot that directly, instead through a union / squashfs? I'm now using pxeboot, but it is dragging everything over the network, which is a bit much..
<rhp_> That would also solve the problems with building the new squashfs image.
<rhp_> A question: is it also possible to extract the right stuff from the image and boot that directly, instead through a union / squashfs? I'm now using pxeboot, but it is dragging everything over the network, which is a bit much..
<rhp_> That would also solve the problems with building the new squashfs image.
<lool> StevenK, persia: hey
<lool> StevenK, persia: The beta images are being rerolled due to some langpack issues and as a side effect will include the ubiquity fixes
<lool> StevenK, persia: however this means heno and team are now lagging in terms of testing as they need to retest the iamges
<lool> StevenK, persia: Could you please spend some time today testing the new ISO if you have some spare cycles?  Thanks!
<lool> persia: Well you might not have time with your work
<lool> persia: I've tested the xorg changes to allow startx from upstart, they work with </dev/console >/dev/console 2>&1 but NOT without; I don't recall what you changed in the rc boot sequence to fix startup of Xorg in kvm, could we discuss this as to allow us to drop openvt soon?
<rhp_> Yeah! _Finally_ I got a working custom image, with fpit and the necessary changes included... and it works! (well... sorta)
<rhp_> At least it recognises the touch screen device, but the scale is completely wrong.
<rhp_> However... (why is there always one?) also the default xorg.conf does not include the fpit driver and when I modify xorg.conf, it complains about the powermanager being configured wrong.
<rhp_> I can just do /etc/init.d/gdm restart, right?
#ubuntu-mobile 2008-10-02
<lool> StevenK: So we should drop moblin-media
<lool> StevenK: Can you give elisa a go?  :-)
<StevenK> lool: I have just commited the seed changes, replacing it with totem and gthumb
<lool> You're in love with gthumb aren't you
<StevenK> persia is to blame
<StevenK> Let me install elisa
<lool> persia: What about eog?
<persia> I'm not a huge fan of gthumb, I just think that f-spot has too many dependencies for intrepid, and look forward to directhex's improvements for jaunty.
<StevenK> Um
<StevenK> elisa is *enormous*
<persia> lool: Doesn't have a thumbnail overview function.  Can't mount cameras.
<lool> StevenK: Well, it's python, it has many plugins, many python deps, but I'd say the packages themselves are big because of some artwork
<StevenK> But, but, 88MB
<lool> StevenK: It's a bit like emacs, you can run it fullscreen and replace your whole OS with it!
<persia> lool: That's precisely the behaviour we *don't* want for smaller devices.
<StevenK> Sure. I'll also upload -default-settings that calls elisa rather than hildon-desktop?
<lool> persia: Ok, I agree f-spot is a bit heavy
<StevenK> :-P
<lool> (even I prefer it)
<StevenK> I think elisa is too big
<lool> persia: I don't see the relation
<lool> elisa is sexy, has bling, big icons, is easy to navigate in because it's meant to be possible to use it from your TV
<StevenK> Big icons == badness on small screens
<persia> No.  Big icons == badness on low resolution screens.
<lool> I think the media center design caracteristics make it a good fit for PMP
<persia> None of the icons for Ubuntu Mobile are large enough for my 5" screen.
<lool> persia: Remember it's meant to be displayed full screen
<persia> In fact, at the same resolution, we need *bigger* icons on smaller screens.
<lool> Each icon is displayed on the full screen; it's scalable not big in term of pixmaps size
<lool> It will be big on all screen sizes :)
<persia> No, it will be small on my 3.5" 852x480 screen.
<persia> Just lots of pixels.
<lool> Comparatively to your screen, it will be big
<persia> OK.  I'll accept that.
<StevenK> I think it's too big. But I'll try it
<lool> StevenK: Don't forget it would provide all media playback facilities, import and all, for photos, videos, music, online viewing (youtube flickr etc.)
<persia> lool: How does the import work?  Would that conflict with the stuff being done by thunar?  Have you tested it on recent daily images?
<lool> StevenK: Make sure you try on a host with OpenGL though; I'd say that's the biggest blocker in our ecosystem
<StevenK> If it requires GL, then I'd say it isn't suitable currently
<lool> persia: I don't know the work done by thunar; I think elisa will import media on an usb stick when it gets automounted
<persia> Yeah, GL is right out.
<lool> StevenK: It's purely GL
<StevenK> libdvdread3? Give me a break
<lool> StevenK: Eh how do you intend to play DVDs in your media center!  :)
<persia> lool: I'm very leery of adding anything to the seeds that hasn't been tested.  Please test it against the images.
<lool> persia: Are you suggesting I don't test stuff I add to the seeds?
<persia> StevenK: And, yes, it's quite easy to attach a DVD player to a MID (I have done so, to boot off the liveCD).
<persia> lool: Are you not suggesting elisa be added to the seeds?  Am I confused?
<lool> I'm suggesting StevenK tries out elisa in the eventuality of adding it to the seeds
<persia> Oh.  Then I suggest you like to convince other people to test stuff before it gets added to the seeds :)
<lool> TBH with the state of the poulsbo drivers, I don't think we can target elisa as a default
<lool> But GL can't stay a blocker for much longer with the trains of Clutter apps arriving
<persia> Oh, I don't think it's just about the psb drivers.  I dislike dependency on GL.
<persia> Yeah, that's all the more reason to not depend on GL for intrepid.  It's exceptionally likely that jaunty will require it.
<lool> persia: Can we discuss the upstart session job WRT openvt?
<persia> lool: Sure.  What's your question?
 * persia boots today's image for discussion
<lool> (I'm still syncing today's image)
<lool> persia: I'd like to revisit where we left stuff in terms of startx from upstart
<persia> That's fine.  We can still talk about it.
<persia> OK.  My memory is that the issue was that we needed to start *after* hal, but wanted to start *before* other services in runlevel 2.
<persia> As a result, I generated a sysvinit job that starts the upstart job to work around the race condition.
<lool> The three issues I'm aware of: a) startx failing due to security checks on fd0 being /dev/ttyN, b) startx being racy with other stuff, starting but the Xorg vt not being visble c) Xorg starting before hal
<lool> We added openvt for a), you added some init script for c)
<lool> I'd like to drop openvt when I upload the new xorg
<persia> If the new xorg works around the problem, I'm happy to drop openvt
<lool> I don't quite know the impact this has on b)
<lool> Do people still get Xorg in a non-visible VT currently?
<lool> I don't, but I might just be lucky
<persia> Right.  We're solving that with openvt -s right now.
<lool> Well it didn't solve it int he beginning
<lool> Xorg was visible for a split second, and then boom, back to console
<lool> Xorg on VT7
<persia> I usually get Xorg on VT1, or so it seems based on Alt-arrow changes in the booted system.
<lool> At least it still works merrily in KVM in the current image
<lool> How come the keyboard supports Finland and not France, pff
<persia> Hrm.  I think we ought push the new xorg, and then try changing openvt in a variety of environments to see the results.  If it works well, we can drop openvt
<persia> Which keyboard?  How?
<persia> lool: Whilst you're looking at xorg, do you know why UseFBDevice is hardcoded in xorg.conf for -MID, and missing in -Mobile?  Is this some lpia hackery?
<lool> I don't know
<lool> Weird, when I double click the speaker applet in mobile, I get the on screen keyboard
<lool> Actually it just pops up randomly
<persia> For me, once it was opened, it just stayed open every time I wanted to enter text, even when it obscured the place where I wanted to enter the text.
<lool> ogra: I know vertical pixels are expensive, but the title is cut for all apps in the list of tasks; either we shouldn't display text and have bigger icons, or the task list should be at the bottom to have longer titles
<lool> Actually the text could also be below the icon to help somewhat
<lool> persia: What's annoying is that it covers the panel so you can't reclick it from the na
<persia> I'd be just as happy having the text only be available in a hover context hint.  On my zaurus, there are only icons, no text.
<persia> lool: Just hit the desktop button in the lower right.  That lets you access the menu.  The keyboard will then pop up again when you launch an application.
<lool> persia: yeah, that's the solution I came too as well
<persia> I'm not sure it's best, but have no idea how to fix it.
<lool> It took five minutes to NM to get network access pfff
<persia> That's just NM.
<lool> popup windows can't stay without decorations, otherwise they are to be confused with the underlying window
<lool> ogra: Hmm we didn't setup a call yesterday
<mdz> lool: I tried the ubuntu-mobile.img daily and it installed fine, but the resulting KVM image won't boot (stops at "Booting from hard disk..." before GRUB)
<lool> mdz: I just kvm started today's ubuntu-mobile.img
<lool> "kvm -m 512 -hda ubuntu-mobile.img" is how I startede
<lool> I'm on amd64
<lool> Err I just tried again and it's hanging where you say it hangs
<persia> Yesterday's image worked great.  I'll try today's again.
<lool> Did I just wait for long or is it racy hmm
<mdz> lool: kvm changed in the past few days
<lool> mdz: It worked minutes ago with the same image, same packages, I didn't upgrade /anything/
<mdz> lool: so you have an image which was booting before but is no longer booting, without change?
<mdz> hmm
<lool> It doesn't load grub
<StevenK> ogra: Ping
<lool> I booted an old -mobile image this morning, it had no keyboard/mouse due to known bug, rsynced the last image, it booted and worked fine
<lool> StevenK: It's hard to "double click" on the Q1's touch screen, perhaps kourou should allow launching by single clicking?
<StevenK> lool: I've noticed that.
<StevenK> lool: Should I allow both, or just single click?
<lool> StevenK: Perhaps it's best to allow both, I fear if you don't the double click will cause two launches
<StevenK> lool: It depends which callback gets called
<persia> Hrm.  the ubuntu-mobile image seems to have been updated in the last 8 hours.  Anyone know why?
<lool> Bah midbrowser doesn't come up
<lool> persia: There was a respin for the ubiquity upload and the langpacks
<lool> persia: I think I mentionned this 12 hours ago here
<persia> lool: There's a bug about that: it seems to have died in the last xul changes.
<StevenK> persia: Because dailies were generated?
<persia> lool: Yes, but I downloaded ubuntu-mobile about 5 hours ago, and I just discovered that what I have doesn't match what is on the server, and am downloading it again.
<persia> This is more recent than the other stuff.
<lool> StevenK: Also, it's kind of weird that one can select an app as in highlight the entry
<persia> StevenK: But *only* ubuntu-mobile was updated out of the set I track (ubuntu desktop alternate lpia, ubuntu studio alternate i386, ubuntu desktop live i386, ubuntu mid, ubuntu mobile)
<lool> It's like you could highlight it or a group of apps and do something with them
<lool> But Enter, of Shift+Arrows don't do anything to the selection
<StevenK> You can't, but iconview allows selection
<StevenK> persia, lool: -mobile is generated at 2:45am BST
<lool> mdz: I suspect kvm/qemu mangles the disk image to allow booting
<lool> mdz: I'm computing the md5sum of the images after rsyncing
<persia> StevenK: There was an update today later in the day.
<lool> mdz: And it doesn't match anymore, but it matched after the rsync
<lool> I'm pretty sure I'll rsync it and it will boot
<lool> mdz: Yup, that worked
<lool> mdz: It's booting again
<StevenK> 20081002 was published at 0327 BST
<persia> lool: The live image, or the post-install image?
<StevenK> It would have hit cdimage.u.c approximately five minutes after
<lool> persia: The .img live image from cdimage in kvm
<persia> Hrm.  Odd.  Perhaps I updated as early as that.
<lool> mdz: And it boots again
<lool> I did launch the installer, I hope it didn't mangle sda when probing
<persia> lool: That's not the described issue.  It's the post-install boot.
<StevenK> apt-get install devscripts debootstrap germinate bzr liburi-perl zsh openssh-client
<lool> Well I got the live image in the same state
<StevenK> Oops, wrong window
<lool> StevenK: Do you think you could add icons to the list of menus?
<persia> Hurrah.  passwd/auto-login preseeding *is* working.
<StevenK> lool: Icons to the drop downs themselves?
<persia> lool: We don't even have an icon for the Home menu.
<lool> StevenK: yes
<StevenK> Personally, I'm afraid of the C code that drives that drop-down, given m-b-f
<lool> persia: It's quite easy to find one IMO
<StevenK> I suspect it neatly surpasses my knowledge of GTK and C, too
<ogra> StevenK, oh, sorry, feel free to change the timeout value ... 
<StevenK> ogra: I did.
<StevenK> ogra: It's now 50, and there is a message, check out the branch on antimony
<ogra> i just didnt want it to st there forever
<ogra> i dont care about the length
<StevenK> ogra: Can you please tag and push your changes to ubuntu-mid-default-settings? :-)
<ogra> oh, right, probably should also create a branch for the mobile settings package
<lool> persia: the ubiquity "user identity" screen overflows on the Q1
<persia> lool: Which image?
<lool> persia: rmid
<lool> mid
<persia> OK.  Which direction?  It works for me at 800x600 under vesa, so I'm a little confused.
<lool> persia: vertically, in French, "step N out of 7" is over the "this name will be used to identify the computer blah"
<lool> Ouhc, python traceback
<persia> Odd.  I'll take another look.
<lool> at bootdevice=self.db.get('grub-installed/bootdev')
<persia> Yeah, that's something in grub-installer that I keep getting interrupted from investigating.  Unfortunately, the alternate desktop CD has inconsistent packages today, and I'm *not* asking for any respins during beta for lpia desktop alternate.
<lool> Could you -vvv the issue, what's inconsistent?
<persia> Which issue?
<ogra> lool, regardnig yourcomplaint about the menu size on mobile, did you test on the Q1 ? 
<ogra> or on something smaller ?
 * ogra still finds the menu finger friendly 
<lool> ogra: I'm about to test on the Q1
<lool> ogra: But if the size is sufficient in the menu, why not make the panel as small?
<lool> I'm writing the fixed ubuntu-mobile.img now
<ogra> i use the panel with my thumb
<lool> ogra: And not the menu?
<ogra> if i hold my device with oth hands i usually can reach all four corners with my thumb
<ogra> if i do some action in an app or the menu i use my index finger
<lool> Right, so the menu isn't usable with thumb only
<ogra> try it
<lool> I will, but there's a logic flaw here :)
<ogra> i agree it *could* be bigger but not that it *must* be bigger :)
<lool> ogra: The world wont fall under two small icons; I first noticed because it was visually weird
<ogra> i fully agree about the other two points
<ogra> but at lest the tasklist one will require patching.... so nothing for intrepid anymore i fear
<persia> mdz: How did you call KVM for the install, and how did you call it for the boot of the result?
<ogra> framing the popup windows is just a config change i think
<mdz> persia: ah, good question
<mdz> in order to get it to boot, I had to specify the .img as -hda
<persia> RIght, and grub got installed on hda.
<mdz> and install to a disk image on -hdb
<mdz> then swap them
<mdz> I thought GRUB was supposed to handle that case correctly these days, though
<ogra> should that matter in the times of UUIDs ?
<mdz> persia: how do you do it?
<persia> If you want to install for KVM, I think you need to run something like -hda disk.img -hdb ubuntu-mobile.img -boot b
<persia> mdz: I repeatly replicate your results under KVM, but reboot with the same definitions of -hda and -hdb, so have no issues (grub points to hdb, which boots).
<lool> ogra: the menu entries are too far to the right for my thumb
<persia> mdz: On real HW, I remove the install USB key, and grub did the right thing.
<mdz> persia: -boot b means boot from floppy
<persia> I thought that was -boot a
<ogra> lool, but you can reach the menu icon with it to open the menu 
<lool> ogra: So I'd say it doesn't matter much to have big icons in the top level panel; the only useful big icon there is the close one
<lool> ogra: What's the point if I'm going to use my index anyway
<lool> And I need it for the browser or thunderbird too
<persia> Reading the manpage, I have no idea how to boot from the second hard drive.  If this was a CD image, there'd be no such issue.
<mdz> persia: so is it actually clobbering the boot sector on ubuntu-mobile.img?
<persia> Looks that way to me.  Let me try something.
<mdz> persia: I think we need a standard recipe for this in the wiki
<ogra> lool, well, i'll look if i can do anything about menu size, but i fear that will be a heavy patch
<persia> mdz: Yes, that's precisely what it's doing.  If you later try to boot with only -hda to the modified image, it doesn't work.
<persia> mdz: I think you're right.
<lool> ogra: Well as I was saying, there are many apps / menus too
<lool> ogra: Not sure it's a good idea to make the menu entries much bigger
<mdz> persia: ideally we would boot from it as a USB device, but I don't know if qemu supports that
<persia> StevenK: What do you think about creating .iso images, and pointing people to usb-creator if they don't have a USB CD drive?
<lool> ogra: Perhaps menu should be slightly bigger and panel smaller?
<mdz> persia: -usbdevice disk:ubuntu-mobile.img probably works, but I don't think it has support for booting from USB
<lool> mdz: No, that's currently broken
<persia> mdz: hardy qemu doesn't.  I don't have kvm running on intrepid today.
<lool> mdz: Ah you mean fake an USB hard disk, sorry, I thought passing throuhg of USB real devices
<ogra> lool, 36px panel ? 
<mdz> lool: yes.  though, pass-through was working for me earlier in intrepid
 * ogra finds that a bit to small
<lool> persia: The same ubiquity screen works fine in mobile; I think we need to fiddle with gtk engines and font size
<persia> Yeah, that's *really* small.
<lool> mdz: In qemu or kvm?
<persia> lool: So you think that it's not something that needs changing in ubiquity?  That's good news.
<mdz> lool: kvm
<lool> I think it's fixed in qemu, and last time I checked it was fixed in debian-experimental's kvm, but this didn't build in intrepid for me, at this point I stopped trying to use that
<persia> Should be the same really.
<lool> Nah, they're not in sync
<lool> kvm regularly pulls newer qemus, but there's a delay
<persia> Ah, that makes sense.  Too bad we're seeing that for release.  Still, the fact that one can't boot off USB is likely worse than anything else.
<mdz> given that kvm falls back to qemu-style emulation if kernel support isn't available, it seems a bit odd that they need to be separate
<persia> I still think using CD images is the easiest workaround.
<mdz> probably so
<mdz> but it would be very valuable to be able to test USB images more easily with kvm
<ogra> mdz, btw you shuould be able to test it in vbox if you dont get kvm to work  
<mdz> ogra: vbox can boot from USB?
<lool> mdz: Well they work decently until you try to install them
<ogra> mdz, no but vditool can convert .img to .vdi
<persia> lool: They even install properly, it's just that one needs to manually reinstall grub on the resulting drive.
<persia> ogra: How does that help the grub target issue?
<ogra> vditool DD ubuntu-mobile.vdi ubuntu-mobile.img
<ogra> and 
<ogra> vditool SHRINK ubuntu-mobile.vdi
<mdz> lool: well, they boot anyway :-)
<mdz> lool: the web browser doesn't start up
<ogra> persia, just testing that
<lool> mdz: Just raised that minutes ago (/lastlog midbrowser) it's caused by recent xulrunner changes it seems
<persia> ogra: ubiquity is looking for the first HD to install grub, which is the sensible behaviour.
<persia> lool: I don't know if it is caused by those, but the timing is similar.
<ogra> persia, ah
<persia> ogra: So basically, for the virtual install experience, we need to recreate the "boot off USB" model, where the USB stick is *not* hd(0,0,0).
<lool> GRRR /usr/lib/jvm/java-6-openjdk/bin/apt is an alternative for "apt", I don't want an apt command launching java
<ogra> yeah, that wont work in vbox
<ogra> at least not in the free edition
<persia> Yeah.  Let's make it a CD.  It would be nice to be able to test USB images in virtual environments, but the virtual environments don't support that.  We could use d-i directly, and have alternate disks, but I like the live images.
<persia> evand's work on usb-creator makes it nearly painless to convert a liveCD into a live USB stick.
<persia> And the virtualisation environments will boot off CD optionally, and then boot off the install HD later.
<persia> Otherwise users are just going to make a mess, and end up with images that boot to Error 21
<ogra> bah, vbow panics anyway
<ogra> *vbox
<ogra> i thought the kernel tem fixed that 
<persia> panics?  That's not good.
<persia> There were reports of working vbox with both 32 and 64 bit guests in #ubuntu-testing recently.
<ogra> if you add a kernel option to drop virtualization it works 
<ogra> but apparently the old oops is still there for me otherwise
<lool> I wonder whether we should provide some magic hda image for qemu/kvm which allows chosing the boot device
<lool> or a cdrom (or a floppy :) image
<persia> I'd rather do a CD image.
<lool> Well netbooks don't always have CD
<lool> and UMPC even less so
<persia> There are plenty of people (like me) that have CD drives that can connect to a MID, or have Mobile devices with built-in optical drives.
<lool> So it makes sense to provide people first with USB images
<persia> It's also trivial to convert a CD image into a bootable USB key with usb-craetor.
<lool> Still an additional step
<lool> To help us with virtual testing which is only a development use case
<persia> For real HW, I agree that USB is the way to go, but mdz brings up a useful point that people may want to play with virtualisation, and doing so corrupts the existing images.
<persia> I wouldn't care so much if the problem was just that the result didn't boot, but that it corrupts the local image is a *big* issue to me.
<lool> Yeah, and I propose a bootstrap generic cdrom image to use our usb images
<lool> rather than switching our usb images
<lool> or we could have a cdrom-creator :)
<persia> We don't have cdrom-creator, it's past UI Freeze.
<persia> In July, I'd be inclined to agree with you.  Today, I'm not.
<lool> You didn't expect we'd switch from USB to CDROM images before release, did you?
<persia> Actually, yes, I do.  It's about 20 lines of code.
<persia> It's trivial to test, doesn't affect translations, etc.
<ogra> oh, it didnt panic thist time
<lool> I want to release USB images, that's what people want to use to install on their devices
<ogra> persia, and in vbox i actually see what you mean with the panel applets
<persia> Even though it's *trivial* to corrupt an image just because you wanted to try it before using it?  How do you think that will affect users' confidence in the results.
<persia> usb-creator works *really* nicely, and does the job.  Lots of us who have lots of little devices have a CD drive around.
 * persia has bugs against usb-creator, but minor ones, really.
<lool> usb-creator is an additional step and not everybody has a cd drive
<persia> Yes, but it means that it's difficult to corrupt the image, rather than being trivial.
<persia> It also allows people to play in a KVM environment safely.
<lool> Come on, we're speaking of people running in kvm, not the target *users*
<ogra> well, if we could get vditool on antimony converting them for vbox would be trivial
<lool> Plus, we should fix the corruption
<persia> And no, playing in KVM from the live environment *isn't* suitable, because you can't reboot unless you create a special casper-rw filesystem.
<ogra> its two additional commands 
<persia> lool: How do we fix the corruption.  Change the standard behaviour of grub-install?
<persia> Is that *really* safer than changing to CD images?
<persia> ogra: Yes, but I don't want to have multiple images.  Trying to explain the multiplicity of images for Hardy was very annoying.
<ogra> indeed
<ogra> and users using vbox usually have vditool installed locally
<persia> ogra: Also, we want to encourage *installs*, not live environments.  There are too many little annoyances in live environments.  I *really* like having them, but only for demo purposes.
<lool> mdz: At least the install of mobile worked fine with a fixed image on the Q1
 * persia goes back to lpia, still entirely certain that CDs are far superior to USB keys
 * lool still believes we shouldn't change the format of the images just before release
<persia> lool: The current format is broken...
<lool> I actually have a good argument for ISO images, but I'll hold it until we release
<lool> persia: Is not
<persia> What's your argument for ISO images.  Don't hold back.
<lool> I booted our two images today without running any conversion tool whatsoever and I installed one of them successfully on a device, still no conversion tool whatsoever
<lool> I already gave you the argument in another discussion, but I'm glad you missed it
<persia> No, but you needed to run dd.  usb-creator provides a GUI.
<persia> Please share again.  digging through logs just takes me longer and distracts me more.
<lool> You have no chance :)
<ogra> the install seems to work fine if i boot vbox from secondary master
<lool> ogra: I think it would work fine in kvm/qemu as well if I managed to boot from hdb
<persia> ogra: vbox supports that!  Excellent.  Any idea how to do it in KVM?
<lool> But this doesn't seem to be possible with -boot
<lool> It's only hard disk
<ogra> persia, no kvm user :)
<persia> ogra: How about qemu ?
<persia> lool: No: using the images in KVM is actively dangerous.  That's why I want CDs.
<lool> It's not
<ogra> they both draw massive ressources on my laptop ...
<persia> ogra: I can't figure out how to do it, and otherwise running the install corrupts the install image.
<persia> lool: It's running one program.  Not an uncommon action.
<persia> Especially if someone wants to try different applications in a development environment before committing to their hardware.
<lool> It's running what?
<persia> As a long-time pocket computer user, I'll say that it takes a *lot* for me to want to change anything on my device, for fear of breaking something.
<persia> Running the installer.
<lool> So if any corruption goes on, we should fix it
 * ogra watches the installer in vbox ...
<persia> OK.  That happens as a result of the grub-installer code to select the right boot disk for a given environment.  Except under virtualisation, hdb is the wrong selection.
<persia> soren has been having lots of trouble trying to determine when something is running under KVM for some X issues, and that's with the full Ubuntu environment.  Doing it in busybox is *even harder*.  Making changes to grub-installer that don't work in busybox is a bad idea.
<persia> Oh, and it's even the wrong selection under virtualisation *except* when installing off a USB image.
<lool> Sorry, didn't get your comment on grub-installer
<lool> What's the issue with it?
<ogra> lool, btw, there is a nice howto on the maemo wiki how to put your system on the internal flashcard intead of the internal rom, i use a 4G sdhc card on it now and its nearly twice as fast 
<persia> lool: Which part don't you understand?
<lool> ogra: But you're using the special bootloader?
<ogra> yep
<ogra> you have to
<lool> Yeah
<ogra> but 4G is a very good size :) 
<lool> ogra: Didn't think it could make the OS faster, I thought it was the same type of hardware, just soldered on the mobo
<lool> persia: I don't understand what you refer to at all
<persia> lool: OK.  Do you understand the problem at all?
<ogra> sdhc has up to 10M transferrates, not sure what the internal one has ... thats actually a good task for the weekend, i'll run some hdparm and bonnie tests :)
<lool>                         /* Allowed boot devices are:
<lool>                          * a b     : floppy disk drives
<lool>                          * c ... f : IDE disk drives
<lool> Pff manpage out of date
<persia> Indeed :/
<lool> persia: I'm afraid I don't even know which problem you're talking about
<lool> Sorry  :-/
<persia> lool: The problem is that when one runs the installer afte starting KVM with `kvm -hda ubuntu-mobile.img -hdb disk.img -m 512M` it boots into an environment where the primary hard drive is the USB image we provide (read-write), and the secondary hard drive is the virtual hard drive.
<lool> Yes
<persia> When the installer runs, the grub-installer component attempts to install grub on the default boot drive for the environment.
<ogra> grrrr
<persia> In this environment, that happens to be our image.
 * ogra starts over
<lool> persia: grub-installer does that?
<lool> that's awfully broken  :-/
<persia> Yes.
<persia> No.
<ogra> 2G wasnt enough on the target device ... and i thought "grow dynamically" means something pfft
<persia> It's *only* broken when running an install from a USB key when claiming it's a hard drive in a virtual environment.
<lool> Oh it does know how to exclude it when it's an USB key, just not when it appears as a hard disk?
<persia> For real environments, yes.  In our special KVM environment no, because we told KVM is wasn't a USB drive.
<lool> It would be nice to emulate an USB drive, but I also think the exclusion could use more sensible data such as the uuid of the live system or something to exclude this device
<persia> Really, give usb-creator a try: I think you'll find it a better experience than dd for most users, and it solves the issues.
<lool> It doesn't solve the issue, it just makes us use something else
<persia> That means updating a UUID list in grub-installer for *every* CD spin.  Since grub-installer is *never* used directly, but only as part of ubiquity or debian-installer, that way lies madness.
<persia> Right.  It makes it difficult to cause the problem, and we have time to maybe fix it in jaunty.
<persia> Currently, it's trivial to cause the problem, which is bad.
<lool> The problem could also very well be avoided by booting on hdb with the image in it
<persia> It's especially bad if we want to get more developers, as the number of people who can play with virtual environments is much larger than the number of people with devices that they are willing to sacrifice for development.
<persia> That's true.  I just think it's easier to change how we build images than it is to fix KVM at this point.
<persia> I also think that usb-creator is significantly more user-friendly than dd, and we should recommend it's use.
<persia> Like I said before, in July, I'd agree with you.  In December, I'll agree with you.  Today, I want CD images.
<lool> Sorry but how can you make a point about easy of development to change the way which will only affect the released images?
<lool> It's not like developers can help us right now
<lool> Everything is frozen
<persia> No, but we can get more developers in November, and having released an image that is easy to use, hard to break, etc. is a good thing.
<lool> This image exists, it can be used from live envs
<persia> We have *no* GUI to convert a USB image into a USB drive (yes, we have usb-imagewriter, but neither of the people who have dug at the code did so enough for intrepid release).
<persia> And we have the KVM issue.
<lool> It just can't be installed to a virtual disk easily because we lack proper detection or boot switches
<persia> And a live environment isn't suitable: a couple of apt-get update; apt-get upgrades breaks it.
<persia> (this is true for any live environment: it has to do with the way casper sets up the environment, and the available space)
 * lool lunch &
<persia> Have fun.
<ogra> persia, i will PPA it the next days
<ogra> so people dont struggel with dd at least
<ogra> just on a sidenote, screenrefresh in vbox with vesa officially sucks
<persia> ogra: Sure, but we have usb-creator in the archives.  As much as I can see arguments for usb images, and as much as I like usb-imagewriter, I don't think USB images are the right format for the intrepid release.
<persia> (and that's not a virtualbox issue : I can replicate on real HW)
<ogra> persia, ??
<persia> screen refresh being slow.
<ogra> you mean no screen update until you move the pointer out of the vbox window ?
<ogra> its an issue with vbox and the mouse grabbing :)
<persia> heh.  no.  I can't replicate that.  I only find vesa slow.
<ogra> yeah, it always was
<ogra> i think usb images are fine
<ogra> its what users demand and hat their hardware supports
<ogra> you cant force every netbook user to buy a usb cdrom
<ogra> or UMPC user
<ogra> or MID users to find out which adapter they need to make that work
<persia> I agree, but I actually like the usb-creator interface.  Give it a try.
<persia> (and I don't know *any* MIDs, even ARM that don't either come with a USB cable, or have a standard USB port)
<persia> (maybe mini, but still standard)
<ogra> nice UI or not, the mobile users simply dont have CDroms usually
<persia> You miss my point.
<ogra> so there is no point to make CD our target format
<persia> usb-creator puts the contents of an ISO onto a USB drive such that the result boots.
<ogra> yes
<ogra> but still
<persia> This means people don't need to use dd.
<ogra> that forces the user to manual steps
<persia> Explaining how to use dd correctly has been one of the biggest support issues we've had.
<ogra> usb-imagewriter should solve that 
<persia> It replaces running dd with running a program.  It doesn't change the number of steps involved.
<persia> Yes, but usb-imagewriter isn't part of the release.
<persia> Much like fixing KVM to boot off USB solves the corruption problem, I simply don't care for intrepid.
<ogra> right, and we wont change anything for intrepid at that point anyway
<persia> And yes, I don't think CD images are the right long-term solution, but they solve *two* outstanding issues for intrepid.
<ogra> bring it up at UDS
<persia> I won't want CD images at UDS.  I only want them now.
<ogra> but now is to late in the cycle
<ogra> we only have a month left 
<persia> What?  To change 20 lines of code in the image scripts?
<ogra> changing the whole infrastructure, making sure it works etc 
<persia> This isn't hard.
<ogra> but risky
<persia> I don't want to change the whole infrastructure: just the image build script to make CDs.
<ogra> even adding mobile at the point it was added was already to risky
<persia> Not very risky.
<persia> And it solves *two* outstanding issues.  There are benefits.
<persia> And it *doesn't* affect anything except -mid and -mobile.  *every* other way to solve the problems affects other flavours.
 * ogra still disabrees
<ogra> *disagrees
<persia> Why.  What is the benefit of USB images?
<ogra> people using umpc or netbooks expect them
<persia> (and no, that people have USB ports doesn't count, because we aren't shipping USB drives)
<ogra> and apprently the bigger amount gets it right ...
<ogra> the uneducated ones wil see an iso and not know what to do 
<persia> Who ships USB images for mobile distros?
<persia> usb-creator solves that.
<ogra> you wont change my mind :) 
<persia> OK.  Please ask again when you'd like to debate on merits.
 * persia would *like* to have a changed mind, but doesn't want a lousy experience for users
<ogra> usb-imagewriter is fine and would be in the archive, hell i would even have a windows version ready if not everyone had told me i shouldnt use dd in the backend
<persia> Sure, and usb-imagewriter is the *better* solution.  It's still not in intrepid.
<ogra> it will be in a PPA 
<ogra> and i plan to make it usable in windows
<ogra> but facing all the resistance when i first uploaded it made me drop work on it for now
<persia> Yes, but that's not a useful place for it: usb-creator is installed *by default* for -desktop, and could be installed *by default* for the live images, if we wanted.
<persia> (personally, I think we don't want it on our images, but having it on desktop makes for a simple support case)
<persia> I'd much rather have usb-imagewriter, but we don't.
<persia> Similarly, I'd much rather have KVM boot off virtual USB drives, but it doesn't.
<ogra> right, that gets us the benefit that we get users with real HW to test for us ;)
<persia> And to me, it's not worth recommending people install PPA stuff, when I spend time trying to convince people *not* to do that most of the time.
 * ogra reboots his vbox install
<persia> How does *limiting* the options get us more users?
<ogra> vbox works fine btw
<persia> Well, assuming one sets the correct arguments.  How does one do that exactly?
<persia> Is it trivial?
<ogra> relatively
 * persia hopes for "Yes".
<lool> persia: So I thought about this over lunch
<persia> lool: And?
<lool> persia: You came up with more and more arguments over the discussion, but I'm still unhappy to change something at beta time
<lool> s/something/image type
<persia> lool: So am I, I just think this is the least invasive possible change to solve 1) KVM use, and 2) GUI for USB drive preparation.
<ogra> you have to use the .vdi as secondary master, target needs to be primary master and hit f12 on first boot to select the secodnrary master as boot device
<persia> ogra: That's not so bad.
<ogra> lool, ++
 * persia looks into KVM bios options
<ogra> persia, well, and indeed you need to convert before using vditool 
<lool> I think it would have been possible to discuss changing image types some two weeks ago
<lool> Even in some freezes
<lool> With some well articulated cases
<ogra> as i said, i even found the mobile addition to be at a problematic point already
<lool> But the discussion started from a single bug
<ogra> which we should rather fix :)
<persia> lool: Yes, but I don't know any less invasive way to solve that bug, and it's *not* hard to change the image type.
<lool> It did evolve in interesting arguments in favor of ISO images, and I'm quite convinced of our need of ISOs for jaunty
<ogra> than working around by changing the whole infrastructure
<persia> lool: Now I'm confused.  I don't want ISOs for Jaunty.  Why do you?
 * persia would like to see the root causes of the bugs addressed.
 * ogra wants usb-imagewriter ... including a windows binary
<ogra> and usb images
<lool> persia: It wouldn't be hard to build MIC images again   ;-)
<ogra> hey, now thats a good idea !
<lool> ogra: Argh you unveiled my killer argument
<persia> lool: Yes it would.  I'm fairly sure you'd have great difficulty resurrecting rmic.
<lool> Depends whether you include convincing StevenK or only consider the technical changes
<persia> lool: Your killer argument was the ability to create images from Windows?
<persia> I include convincing not only StevenK but infinity.
<ogra> s/create/write/
<lool> Yeah, I think the argument of having a windows solution is a serious one
<persia> I prefer usb-imagewriter in Windows to having CD images just because of Windows.
<persia> I think usb-imagewriter in Windows is something we can see by December.
<lool> There's already an USB image writing tool for windows
<lool> And Linux
<lool> And it doesn't take USB .imgs as input, only .isos
<ogra> th eredhat tool ? 
<lool> The Fedora one yeah
<lool> I don't even understand why we wrote our own usb-craetor
<ogra> thats usb-imagewriter on steroids
<lool> ogra: It takes an iso as input and creates an usb bootable image with syslinux
<ogra> its is a wrapper around an unlicensed version of DD for windows
<ogra> not sure we want that
<ogra> oh, and unmaintained
<ogra> (the dd for win)
<persia> ogra: Which tool are you deprecating so effectively?
<ogra> liveusb-creator or some such
<ogra> the redhat tool for creating images
<lool> ogra: I didn't look at the implementation, but there is a place where I can point people at for windows binaries which allow taking an iso and writing an usb key; no usb cdrom drive, no ubuntu install required
 * ogra did look and really dislikes it massively
<lool> https://fedorahosted.org/liveusb-creator
<persia> Right.  I already don't like that tool, and I'd never heard of it before.
<persia> So, can anyone tell me the risks they see in switching to CD images for intrepid.  Like I said, I'm very prepared to change my mind, as long as the reason is more than "it might be hard".
<lool> ogra: Well I'm happy to consider replacing it by something better if it really is broken, but it's working for people under windows right now
<ogra> lool, right, i can make usb-imagewriter easily do the same in the same weird way
<persia> ogra: But not for intrepid.
<ogra> i'm working here because we usually provide *proper* solutions over the hackish ones
<ogra> liveusb-creator is a gross hack
<lool> persia: There's a balance between providing USB and ISO images, this balance is in my mind slightly in favor of ISO images as we speak for various reasons we discussed here, but the difference is not so huge that I'd consider changing the image type at this point of the cycle
<persia> Bother.  My arguments have had entirely the opposite effect of that intended.
<ogra> we should have had this discussion at uds
<lool> ogra: +1
<ogra> but now that we have everything running in the infrastructure it doesnt really seem sane to switch back to an experimental state
<persia> I don't mind that the install from KVM doesn't work.  I don't mind that one has to do odd things to make vbox work.  I don't even mind that one has to use dd from the command line.
<ogra> you always had to do odd things for vbox
<persia> I'm *extremely* concerned that testing an install in a virtual environment without special adjustments can *corrupt* the install image.
<ogra> more so in hardy even
<persia> To me, that's a very visible and significant issue.
<lool> persia: Well we can convince people to protect the image then
<lool> As in using chattr or something to protect the file, or perhaps a -ro flag if there's one
<persia> lool: I tried that.  Setting mode 444 doesn't prevent it from being corrupted,
<lool> chattr will :)
<persia> Really?
 * persia tries
<lool> You want +i
<persia> lool: `chattr +i` ?
<persia> Right.  Testing now.
<lool> Even root gets permission denied in writing to such files
<persia> SO, I've run `chattr +i toy.img`, and now I'm going to corrupt it.
<persia> The good news is that I get Permission Denied when I mount it.  Let's see what happens in the virtual environment.
<lool> I hope kvm block devices don't do nasty things in the kernel
<persia> I kinda expect them too, as part of the general accelleration.
<lool> But since this is ultimately backed by an ext3 or something, it shouldn't be possible
<persia> Right.  Just want to verify that.  Telling people to chattr +i when using in a virtual environment is something acceptable to me.  Not very clean, but at least acceptable.
<persia> Oh, cool.  Fails to boot.
<persia> So, yeah, that doesn't work.  Any other suggestions?
<persia> Wait, it's just extremely slow...
<crevette> hello
<persia> No, it really fails to boot.  " * Loading hardware drivers...   [fail] "
<persia> Followed by I/O errors.
<persia> Or no, maybe it is booting, just *really slowly.
<persia> Hi crevette
<crevette> for anyone working on having bluez 4.xx for intrepid: can you test gnome-user-share 0.40 on my ppa
<crevette> salut persia 
<crevette> it bring some neat feature I worked on upstream
<crevette> and native bluez 4.xx support
<persia> crevette: How does it differ from the version in ~bluetooth/+archive ?
<crevette> ie not patched
<crevette> I did a changelog
<persia> crevette: (and Ideally we don't want to add new features at this point in the cycle)
<crevette> ah okay
<persia> I also want 4.X because 3.X appears to be fairly firmly broken, but 4.X + new features is maybe a bit much for the release managers to swallow.
 * ogra promised mario to test after beta
<ogra> do we have other packages as well that would be worth testing (i.e. are likely to get in)
<persia> ogra: If you have time to test before beta, that would help too.  Ideally, the suite can drop in on Friday.
<persia> Everything proposed for update for BlueZ 4.x should be in the ~bluetooth PPA.
<ogra> persia, well, i'm trying to shake out the last bits in -mobile atm and i think its time for another blog post and some notification at umpcportal
<persia> ogra: I agree : it's "If you have time" :)
<ogra> additionally i promised njpatel to get the fixes for netbook-launcher in, if i still find extra time today i'll jump on bluez
<persia> Especially because I wasn't able to get -mobile into the beta test list (it will be on the iso tracker immediately post-beta)
<ogra> i dont care about beta for it, but i want to keep the enthusiasm high 
<ogra> so blogging is my first duty ;) 
<ogra> (but first i need to make a test instal of tonights img to see all changes got in)
<ogra> wow, the rsync took 3min only :)
<lool> persia: So what happens with the chattred .img?  :)
<lool> I don't quite see what could cause slowness
 * StevenK grumbles. Don't speak about rmic to me
<persia> lool: Install is 66% complete.  grub-installer runs *last*
<lool> Oh so it does boot
<persia> lool: The slowness is because I'm getting I/O errors trying to access HDA
<persia> Also, the failure to load hardware drivers bothers me: it's certainly suboptimal.
<persia> ogra: Please take a look at the casper-bottom scripts.  Ideally the screensaver should be disabled in the install, so that it doesn't generate a blank screen.
<persia> I think I saw a stub there for -desktop, and I wonder why it doesn't seem to fix -mobile.
<ogra> i addeed that code, i'll look
<ogra> but i doubt its the screensaver you see
<persia> heh :)  Excellent.  Anyway, I just had a screen blanking event: perhaps it was just some other powersave thing hitting me.
<ogra> yep
<StevenK> ogra: Please tag and push your changes for -mid-default-settings 
<ogra> its more likely gpm
<ogra> meh
<ogra> StevenK, i cant push ?
<StevenK> You can't?
<StevenK> ogra: Why can't you?
<ogra> Update this branch:  	 You cannot upload to this branch. Members of Ubuntu Mobile Team  can upload to this branch. 
<ogra> i'm definately logged in
<StevenK> Hm.
<StevenK> davidm: ogra isn't a member of the ubuntu-mobile team. Could you correct that? :-)
<davidm> I can
<ogra> hrm
<persia> lool: "Executing 'grub-install (hd0)' failed.  This is a fatal error. "  No image corruption.
<ogra> there isnt even an apply button
<lool> ogra: Too many random candidacies
<ogra> ah
<lool> StevenK: around?
<lool> StevenK: Could you poke https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=2823 ?
<ubottu> bugs.maemo.org bug 2823 in SDK "Modest includes untranslated "ecdg_ti_caption_separator"" [Normal,Unconfirmed] 
<ogra> oooh, the ubiquity fix for auto-login is in ?? wow
<StevenK> lool: What about it?
<lool> StevenK: Upstream is asking for info
<lool> StevenK: "is Modest using the string itself, or is it a widget from libhildon? Could you
<lool> show a code snipset?"
<ogra> StevenK, pushed
<persia> Team meeting in 3 minutes in #ubuntu-meeting
<StevenK> It's libhildon itself, I think.
<StevenK> I'd have to dig
<davidm> Yep
<davidm> StevenK, joining meeting?
<LjL> is there a VM (VMWare preferred, but i guess i can convert) image of Ubuntu Mobile available - not MID, at least as i understand from the FAQ?
<ogra> i just tried it on vbox, will post instructions after the meeting (currently ubuntu-mobile meeting is held in #ubuntu-meeting, feel free to join)
<persia> LjL: There isn't.  The ubuntu-mobile.img file should boot in any environment, although you may need to convert it to a native format for VMWare.
<LjL> oh, i guess i joined here at the wrong time to ask questions then ;) yeah, i'll join, thanks
<persia> Alternately, you can dd it to a USB drive, and boot off that, if VMWare supports that.
<LjL> persia: if it's not an *installation* image, but a *runtime* image, then i guess it's fine with me
<persia> LjL: It's *both*
<ogra> its a live system
<ogra> with install option :)
<LjL> hm, but i guess no direct write support, just like an Ubuntu CD?
<ogra> you could even boot your laptop or desktop from it right away ;)
<ogra> yup
<LjL> well, i guess it's a start anyway
<ogra> we use the same tools to create it ... 
<LjL> it's mostly for having my parents try out a "netbook" environment before they buy one
<ogra> it should be perferc to try out, though its focused on touchscreens, so the UI will look a bit clunky (thumb sized ui elements etc)
<persia> LjL: There's nothing for purchase based on that environment: it may be different, unless you're planning to reinstall.
<persia> ogra: It looks/works great for clamshells with touchpads.
<LjL> persia, well, reinstalling is most definitely an option, unless it turns out that the default OS of the netbook we buy is fine with us
<LjL> in any case, i'm familiar with ubuntu so i'd rather play with an ubuntu based system for a start
<ogra> well, lets put it this way: it wouldnt be my peronal taste on a netbook
<ogra> :)
<persia> ogra: Fine.  I like it.
<persia> LjL: Ubuntu Mobile is just a slightly different package selection and some theme changes: it ought be a safe base for any adjustments you want to make.
<ogra> yeah
<LjL> how does it compare (as in substantial differences, not as in "which is better") with other netbook/"eee" distributions of ubuntu of which there seems to be a proliferation, if i may ask?
<persia> LjL: It's the "official" one :)  Whether it's the best is harder to say (I've not used the others).
<persia> More than anything, it's close to the Ubuntu Desktop.
<LjL> so probably fewer adjustments than most of the others, but just what really needs to be changed for a small device, and possibly more geared towards devices providing a touchscreen?
<LjL> by the way, i'm around for many hours to come, you don't all need to reply immediately to stuff i say since you're in the middle of a meeting ;)
<ogra> we love multitasking :)
<ogra> but great to hear you will stay :)
<LjL> do i get ubuntu-mobile.img (as opposed to ubuntu-mid.img, i suppose) from ogra's pages - which appears to be the only place i can find it?
<ogra> no
<ogra> http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-mobile/intrepid/current/
<ogra> i am about to blog about the new location ... (after the meeting :) )
<LjL> ah. you might want to tweak https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileTeam/Mobile about it
<LjL> the FAQ point to that page and to the MID page, but then both link to the MID download
<ogra> thanks !, i forgot about that 
<persia> ogra: It's actually *trivial* to preseed extra stuff into sources.list, but it's *bad* and *wrong*, as we discovered for hardy.
<persia> The reasons not to do it are legion,  On the other hand, having instructions on the wiki is merely not ideal, but at least works.
<ogra> you cant preseed it, it would break on network connected installs as it would try to pull from there 
<ogra> PPAs are not signed
<ogra> so you get probs here 
<ogra> it would have to happen after install with a displayed note 
<lool> ogra: Signing ppas doesn't solve much unfortunately
<lool> ogra: But they might get signed /any time/ soon :)
<ogra> haha
 * ogra lives next to the birthplace of brothers grimm ... 
 * ogra knows about fairy tales
<persia> ogra: There are also ways around unsigned repos (and no, I'm not going to share), but the problem is inherently that it's not Ubuntu anymore.
<ogra> i would leave it unsigned, but have a sources.list entry ...
<ogra> u-m or g-a-i will show a proper warning with that 
<ogra> it just saves the user one step
<ogra> but i think its impossible to set up properly without a lot gross hackery
<ogra> was just a brainfart ...
<persia> Well, it's possible, but not pleasant.  Better to add a wiki page if anyone ports psb to X 1.5.
<persia> Let's hope for upstream support for Jaunty.
<ogra> well, worst case that would be intel
<ogra> so we could provide a backported package in PPA at least
<persia> Well, no, that's not the worst case.  The worst case is if I try to do it.
<ogra> doit :)
<persia> No, that's the worst case.  I'd be surprised if the result even worked for me, except in my febrile imagination.
<ogra> i'd do it if i had real HW for it 
<ogra> though probably steve sends me the device he talked about
<persia> The best case is if it goes upstream, and someone who actually knows X and drm provides a PPA for it.  It can't be backported without *immense* effort, and will likely break other things.
<persia> Yeah.  The SC has psb.  Nice little lappy, that one.
 * ogra saw a video
<ogra> though its still way bigger than my n800 with freedom kbd 
<persia> It definitely has the smallest 7" sceeen I've seen: it feels more like 6, until you compare it with other devices.  Almost 0 border plastic.
<persia> The keyboard is a little cramped though, and it's designed for desktop typing, so that's the worst of both worlds.
<ogra> hey, the Q1 sees the freedom kbd 
<ogra> but tries to open nautilus for it ???
 * ogra shakes head
<ogra> our bluez implementation *really* sucks
<persia> BlueZ 3.x in intrepid doesn't support keyboards.  Even if you can pair, you can't type.  Even if you try to do it manually, rather than using bluez-gnome.
<ogra> asac, so could we just do a build1 upload of midbrowser ? that would get me working images today
<ogra> (i'm fine to do that)
<persia> This is even true with crevette's updated bluez-gnome 0.28.
<asac> ogra: you can git export from the git tree and upload that
<asac> ogra: you could also just bump the version
<ogra> asac, the latter was my plan
<ogra> oh, you mean wihout buildX suffix
<asac> ogra: there is -3 in git
<asac> ogra: -2 what is in archive
<asac> apparently -3 wasnt uploaded
<ogra> url ? 
<LjL> ogra: the image booted fine in vbox, after converting with vditool dd (extremely slow, but i guess that's vbox's fault)
<ogra> the video driver is vesa by default, it sucks
<asac> ogra: you think you can do that? :)
<ogra> but to see once it it works
<asac> ogra: its just exporting the intrepid branch from  http://git.moblin.org/repos/?p=projects/mobile-browser.git
<rhp_> Guys: after killing X, what is the way to start X again? /etc/init.d/gdm start gave me error message. Should I use startx instead?
<LjL> ogra: no but i'm talking about boot time
<ogra> asac, no idea, cant tell if i dont try i guess ... my only fear is that my name sticks in the changelog then :P
<asac> ogra: no thats all done
<asac> ogra: you just need to sponsor for me
<asac> i am in the -3 changelog
<asac> its "officially" released
<ogra> phew
<asac> just noone came around to upload
<ogra> :)
<asac> 2008-09-11 Alexander Sack * RELEASE 0.3.0release-3 to ubuntu/intrepid  intrepid
<asac> thats the changelog upload
<asac> so debuild -S -kogra@ubunt
<asac> and go
<asac> ;)
<ogra> ok, i'll try my git foo
<ogra> pftt debuild ...
 * ogra is dpkg-buildpackage user :)
<ogra> all this newish stuff ...
<asac> ogra: yeah i used that for brevity ;)
<asac> ogra: do you still need the hildon menu/integration?
<ogra> -mid needs it i guess
<ogra> in -mobile its rather not so great
<persia> rhp_: If you've gdm, you want to stop before you start.  If you're using MID, you want sudo session stop; sudo session start
<persia> LjL: The image boot is fairly slow, in part because it's a live image.  Once installed, it's faster.  If you're installing with vbox, you'd need to have the image be the secondary disk, and the target be the primary disk.
<ogra> persia, the use is also massively slow due to vesa
<ogra> installed or not doesnt matter 
<persia> Well, yeah, that too, but boot *especially* so.
 * ogra didnt find the boot particulary slow though
<persia> Oh.  I find *all* the live image boots frustratingly slow, regardless of environment.  It's all the setup: takes well over a minute for me.
<ogra> wow
<LjL> i also can't get the browser to start apparently
<ogra> my vbox is up in about 40sec
<ogra> LjL, yup, we just discussed that above
<ogra> it needs a fresh upload
<ogra> i'll try to get to it today
<persia> ogra: Your *virtual* is up in 40 seconds!  It takes longer than that for me with real hardware.
<ogra> heh
<ogra> it takes longer on the Q1 for me as well
<ogra> around a minute
<persia> Maybe just something with prefetching the image into memory.
<ogra> i guess its an issue with the usb key speed
<persia> Could be that as well, and then it boots faster off a hard drive.
<ian_brasil> just tried ubuntu-mobile on an asus eeepc 900 ..it flies..i opened gimp open office and midbrowser all at the same time no problem
<ian_brasil> a few comments..how do you set a proxy on midbrowser..if it is using the system proxy settings that is not the most obvious IMO
<persia> ian_brasil: MIDbrowser is working for you!  Are you using ogra's image, or a daily?
<ian_brasil> I downloaded the latest image last night from ogra
<ian_brasil> wifi seems not to be working too
<ian_brasil> i think it is missing a module
<ogra> ian_brasil, thats not the latest :)
<ogra> http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-mobile/intrepid/current/
<ogra> thats the latest
<ogra> the one on people.u.c is abotu a week old
<ogra> but beware, the browser is broken
<ian_brasil> ogra: strange, the browser seems ok
<persia> WiFi shouldn't be missing a module, although you might need to add it manually (there should be an option to add drivers under System/Administration somewhere)
<ogra> did you get it from cdimage ? 
<persia> Setting the proxy should be system/preferences/network proxy (or soemthing like that)
 * ogra fixes the download link on people.u.c
 * ian_brasil looks for the download link
<persia> By "fix" do you mean "point at the dailies" ?
<persia> ian_brasil: http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-mid/intrepid/current/
<ian_brasil> ubuntu-mid?
<ogra> heh
<ogra> http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-mobile/intrepid/current/
* persia changed the topic of #ubuntu-mobile to: Ubuntu Mobile | FAQ: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileTeam/FAQ | Mobile Images: http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-mobile/intrepid/current | MID Images: http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-mid/intrepid/current/
<ogra> persia, right
<persia> ian_brasil: Sorry.  Typo.
<persia> ubuntu-mobile
<ian_brasil> ok
<ogra> there are various improvements since the first image
<ian_brasil> excellent...but the image I downloaded is really good..i am very impressed
<ian_brasil> ogra: the browser is broken on the new images
<ian_brasil> ?
<ogra> yep
<ogra> needs a rebuild
<ogra> great that i managed to impress you  :) 
 * ogra wonders what people will say in jaunty if all the little annoyances are worked out :)
<ogra> heh, my answer to marios bluetooth mail did its duty :)
 * ogra is impressed that shocking people often works best to draw attention to a topic :)
<persia> Indeed.  I'm surprised the current state lasted so long.
<lool> persia: Bah, bochs doesn't allow anything else than "first hard disk" in the CMOS settings
<ogra> bochs ? 
<ogra> heh
<ogra> you could try dosbox as well :P
<lool> wah the !! is quite confusing: if (!!(inb_cmos(0x2d) & 0x20) ^ (seq_nr == 1))
<persia> lool: Yeah,  Hence the release note.
 * lool is installing in kvm with the hope to not corrupt this time around
<persia> lool: What did you do that you expect will solve it?
<lool> Ah no space left on device
<persia> Pity.  I'd love to have something useful to tell KVM users other than "don't click Install".
<lool> Still properly selects the good hard disk
<persia> What? Which is the good disk?
<lool> The first one
<lool> I have the qemu/kvm target hard disk as hda, am booting the .img as hdb
<lool> install proceeds on hda
<lool> I hope grub gets installed on hdb
<persia> Hrm?  grub should always get installed on hda.
<lool> That's good
<persia> How did you boot it like that?
<lool> But I booted on hdb, so I hope grub-installer doesn't opt for that
<persia> It's not supposed to.  If it does, I'll want your syslog.
<persia> How did you convince kvm to boot off hdb?
<lool> I'll tell you if it works
<lool> Actually I didn't :-)
<lool> But I did tell you
<lool> Bah downloading langpacks is sooo long
 * lool needs fiber as fast as persia's web access
 * persia needs enough hours in the day to be able to have enough attention to remember things lool says so they don't need to be repeated.
<persia> And if you want fast fibre, all you have to do is move to Korea or Japan.
<lool> persia: Does it happen to you with mobile that the screensaver turns the screen black and it wakes up for no apparent reason?
<lool> Happens on my Q1
<ian_brasil> we have a lot of fibre here but unfortunately not the optical kind
<persia> Happens for me with intrepid desktop
<lool> ian_brasil: You should do IP over cow
<persia> heh
<lool> What happens if I "ignore" the langpack install?  Will it fail the install?
<lool> I really need a transparent web proxy
 * ian_brasil was pleased with the 1.5 day ubuntu-mobile download
<persia> No, it just doesn't install the langpacks.  You can skip that step.
<lool> ian_brasil: I hope you'll rsync the next one
<persia> 1.5 *days*!  Oh my.
<ian_brasil> pleased that there was no power outage during that time
<lool> It took me almost a day to download an USB key image from another Canonical team as well
<lool> "Running update-grub"
<persia> Hrm.  I get annoyed when it takes more than 20 minutes.
<ian_brasil> persia: everythin here is measured in days
<lool> downloading some stuff *sigh*
<persia> ian_brasil: Probably gives you a better pace of life, actually.  Here, I can barely have a drink during the download, whereas you get to do such exotic things as sleep :)
<ian_brasil> and it makes it like christmas when (if) it finished..i have been showing off the image to everyone..with very postive responses i might add
<lool> Cool, no image corruption
<ogra-maemo> yay
<ogra-maemo> proper typing on the n800
<lool> persia: So I used isolinux
<lool> That allows booting of second hard disk
<persia> Interesting.  Does that break the image for normal use cases?
<persia> Can it be scripted: users could generate the target image for KVM based on the distributed image.
<lool> persia: I don't understand either of the questions, give me 30 seconds to publish the script to create the iso
<persia> That answers the second question, and I can read the script to answer the first :)
<lool> persia: So, I'm pushing to mobile-scripts
<lool> persia: I use it with -cdrom
<lool> cdrom has lower precedence than -hda
<lool> so if you have kvm -m 512 -cdrom ~/generic-iso/isolinux.iso -hda hda.img -hdb ubuntu-mobile.img
<lool> It will boot on isolinux because hda fails
<lool> (if hda is a qemu-img blank image)
<lool> isolinux will offer to boot from either the first hard disk or the second
<lool> (I need help on this part, but let's discuss later)
<persia> And then isolinux reboots with hdb, and life is good.  That makes the writing of the notes easy.  Thanks.
<lool> then isolinux chainsload hdb
<lool> when you're done installing and reuse the same command line, hda works
<lool> I checked and neither hdb nor the .iso are corrupted
<lool> Now the part I need help with
<lool> We don't actually care about allowing to boot from the first hard disk
<lool> (from syslinux)
<lool> Should I change the script to only allow booting from second hard disk and do that immediately without prompting?
<lool> I find the current script and resulting iso for universally useful, but perhaps we should really create a "boot from second hard disk".iso
<persia> I prefer some flexibility: there may be users who want to test in more complex virtual environments.
<lool> Obviously this could be extended for more hard disks, but I didn't try it out
<lool> persia: So what do you think of this workaround?  Did you start writing some release notes?
<persia> I think it's a *great* workaround.  I haven't started writing any notes.  I'll be adding this when I do write some.
<lool> Oh sorry, I broke the script when I added it to mobile-scripts
<ogra-maemo> you should put it on the wiki as well, for people not wanting to use bzr
<lool> fixed
<lool> http://people.ubuntu.com/~lool/isolinux.iso
<lool> ogra-maemo: I think it's best to publish the iso
<ogra-maemo> oh, k
<lool> adventurous people can use the script
<ogra-maemo> i thought you wanted to give the scriupt to people
<lool> No, the iso
<persia> The ISO lets people do the right thing.  I'll definitely download and test, but not soon, as it's getting quite late.
<lool> I mean people are welcome to use the script to build a more complete iso, but to solve the problem of installing in kvm, the iso is enough
 * ogra-maemo wonders if that works as well in vbox
<ogra-maemo> i assume it should though
<ogra-maemo> hey, that kbd is fun 
<ogra-maemo> (apart from the missing alt key)
<persia> ogra: Please test.  If we can use the same procedure for both vbox and KVM, it makes it an easier message to send.
<ogra-maemo> i will
<lool> It most probably does
<lool> ogra-maemo: https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/mobile-meta/+bug/274838 can be closed I guess
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 274838 in mobile-meta "ubuntu-mobile images need to be built on cdimage.ubuntu.com machines" [High,Triaged] 
<persia> Indeed it can.  Please close it.
<lool> amitk_: I'm fix releasing #264048 for linux-lpia; I added a linux task and fix committed it; can you close in debian/changelog?
<persia> bug #264048
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 264048 in linux "aufs hangs on rename() in MID live images" [Undecided,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/264048
<persia> Oh, right.
<ian_brasil> using the usb key i shut down and at the prompt i hit enter ...the screen goes black but the machine remains on and i have to shut down by pressing the button...shall i file a bug?
<amitk_> lool: I thought I already added it to debian/changelog
<ogra-maemo> lool, indeed
<lool> amitk_: doesn't appear in the linux-lpia page
<lool> https://edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux-lpia
<ogra-maemo> ian_brasil, that Â¨featureÂ¨ was disabled in the official image
<ogra-maemo> if zou see it there as well, yes, file it
<amitk_> lool: aaah. I added it to the linux changelog
<lool> amitk_: That's fine now
<lool> It will close the new task
<persia> ian_brasil: That's a bug.  Please include as much information about the hardware as possible, as it is likely caused by a failure to perform a clean ACPI powerdown.
<ian_brasil> persia;ok, will do
<persia> And, yes, we turned off the "Press Enter to continue" prompt, but that shoudn't affect whether the machine shuts down.
<ian_brasil> persia: what command can i execute on the eeepc to get this info?
<lool> persia: I sent instructions to the list; feel free to copy-paste or reword for the release notes
 * persia looks rapidly about for someone who knows more about ACPI
<persia> lool: Thank you.
<lool> ian_brasil: Try updating your BIOS?
<lool> persia: Oh another thing I'm taking help on is the ONERROR thing in syslinux; I don't know why, but it's not working when the BIOS fails to boot the first disk
<lool> I'd love the iso to try disk 1 and automatically skip to disk 2, but that doesn't work
<lool> I don't know whether control returns to isolinux when 0x80 fails
<persia> lool: From my reading of the documentation, ONERROR only allows appending to the kernel command line, rather than changing it.
<persia> Or rather, prepending.
<lool> persia: I think the issue is triggerred only when the files aren't found
<lool> I tried finding an alternate fallback mechanism, but didn't see one
<lool> If you do...
<persia> I'll add looking to my list, but suspect it will be at least a couple days before I get very far.
<lool> Just nice to have
<persia> Yeah, but what you've already done is a *big* step towards reducing my concerns about the current images.  Thanks for that.
<lool> Happy that it did
<ogra> woah, that midbrowser cloning takes a century
 * ogra wonders who said bzr was slow
<persia> ogra: It's a comparison thing.  For me, bzr is slower than http, so I call it slow.  That doesn't mean it's slower than other tools.
<ogra> its running since 30min now
<ogra> still recieving stuff
<lool> ogra: You're going to have some hundreds of MBs on your disk
<lool> That's MB, not MiB  :)
<ogra> heh
<ogra> i hope my diskspace is enough for that 
<ogra>  my /home is wuite full
<ogra> *quite
<lool> ogra: I think you saw http://people.ubuntu.com/~lool/popup-no-win-decorations.png already
<lool> As an illustration of the need for win decorations
<lool> ogra: I think it's like 500 or 600 MB
<lool> Perhaps once built
<ogra> well, if compiz is enabled you have a pretty shadow around it
<ogra> its only relevant in metacity
<lool> It's not
<ogra> ??
<lool> kvm
<ogra> yeah, kvm = no compisite
<ogra> *composite
<ogra> so the image uses metacity
<lool> Yeah, and popups are really awful like this
<ogra> with compiz you have a roper drop shadow 
<ogra> *proper
<lool> I'm not sure it's enough
<ogra> try it on the Q1
<lool> I have it installed with mobile
<persia> ogra: Is there a way to hint it to look OK also in metacity?
<ogra> if i have any kind of window frames (which i dont atm) i need to develop a theme as well, the current themes are not finger friendly
 * persia turns off compiz as the first step on any install
<ogra> persia, not an easy one
<persia> Bother.
<ogra> but i will look into it
 * lool has headache and goes taking a shower &
<ogra-maemo> sigh, still cloning
<ogra-maemo> bad git
<ian_brasil> trying to work out how the eepc/asus get to boot so quickly..i think it boots straight to hibernate..is this possible as it sounds crazy
<persia> It is possible to ship a device in a hibernated state, and label hibernate "shutdown".  No idea if that was what was done, but it certainly would increase percieved boot speed.
<ogra-maemo> ian_brasil, you mean in the tyoutube video ?
<ogra-maemo> i.e. the five second boot thing ?
<ian_brasil> i didnt know about the you tube video but i think shipping in hibernate is what has been done
<ian_brasil> and it definitely has a wow factor so are there any downsides is the next issue
<ogra-maemo> well, for that video they patched out 60%T of the kernel source and made the kernel monoilithic
<ogra-maemo> its cheating as much as you even can
<ian_brasil> would data loss be possible with a boot to hibernate?..i imagine if you changed the booting kernel it would but dont think your soccer mum will de doing that
<lool> That gets rejected, you can't resume from it
<ian_brasil> lool: cant you just resume from the hibernate file..maybe i didnt understand something here
<ogra-maemo> you would have to make sure it actually reboots after a kernel replacement
<ian_brasil> or it uses uswsusp which quickly restors from RAM if possible, but if the battery fails the machine can  be restored from disk file
<lool> I wonder why I don't have uswsusp anymore
<ogra> lucky you
<ogra> it breaks the world
<ogra> its supposed to be removed from the archive completely right after beta
<ogra-maemo> currently it breaks gpm
<ogra-maemo> not sure if you tried to suspend your Q1 yet
<ian_brasil> the eepc must be doing this..there is a partition unaccessible from mount which seems to mirror the main from power shutdown to a complete desktop is 15 secondse
 * ogra is lost with midbrowser 
<ogra> how the heck do i build it 
<ogra> there is no debian dir
<ogra> asac, ^^^ ?
<ogra> is just copying the debian dir from the package into the tree enough ? 
<ogra> (since its native)
<lool> ogra: use the intrepid branch
<ogra> oh, sigh
<ogra> i indeed checked out the wrong thing
<ogra> gah
<lool> ogra: It's ok
<lool> You have it all
<lool> Just checkout -b :)
<ogra> oh mn, git is such a pain
<lool> ogra: git checkout -b intrepid origin/intrepid
<lool> Not sure about the exact name
<ogra> argh, how do i somethign lije bzr revert *
<ogra> *like
<lool> git reset --hard HEAD
<asac> ogra: intrepid branch
<asac> yeah
<ogra> fatal: A branch named 'intrepid' already exists.
<ogra> hmm
<ogra> but it created a debian dir
<asac> ogra: if its exists you need to say
<asac> git checkout intrepid
<lool> git checkout intrepid
 * lool hugs asac
<ogra> Already on "intrepid"
<ogra> :P
<asac> also you probably dont want to build that directoy, but use git export ... something
<ogra> silly git
<asac> hmm
<lool> If you debuild -i -I it should be fine
<asac> yeah use that
<asac> git export appears to not exist ;)
<lool> git-archive
<asac> yay
<ogra> sigh
<ogra> what a silly silly tool
<asac> everyone else says the same about bzr ;)
<asac> like gnash people that fight with branch formats ;)
<ogra> pfft 
<asac> which is actually the truth. bzr _must_ settle on a branch/repo format ... cant be true that you cannot use your tree with a bzr that is 1.5 years old :)
<ogra> mumble ... needs xulrunner-1.9-dev installed 
 * ogra installs
 * lool suggests pdebuild --debbuildopts -I to ogra
<ogra> grr
<ogra> needs /usr/share/mozilla-devscripts/lp-locale-export.mk
 * ogra digs
<ogra> yay, that looks better
<ogra> E: midbrowser_0.3.0release-3_source.changes: bad-distribution-in-changes-file intrepid
<ogra> WHAT ? 
<ogra> silly 
<ogra> i'm building *on* intrepid you silly thing
<lool> Nobody ever touches lintian in Ubuntu by fear of having to merge it forever after :-)
<ogra> heh
<ian_brasil> /dev/sda1 has 2GB and /dev/sda2 1.5GB ..after boot that is /dev/sda1 qith 1.5GB and cannot see /dev/sda2 
<ian_brasil> s/qith/with
<venome> ian_brasil: what does `sudo fdisk -l` say?
<venome> ï»¿ ian_brasil: sry, it won't be there as well ...
<ian_brasil> i found it
<venome> ï»¿ ian_brasil: in fdisk?
<ian_brasil> /etc/initramfs-tools/conf.d
<ian_brasil> there is a resume file
<venome> :)
<venome> ok
<ogra> thats only a configuration
<ogra> should contain a uuid
<ogra> for your swap partition
<ian_brasil> ogra: but this specifies the UUID to resume from 
<lool> ogra: Do you know whether with the kernel model we have any tool which can simply save an hibernate image without actually hibernating?
<ogra> hmm, not of the top of my head, but i can find out
 * ogra test installs midbrowser
<ogra> yay, works
 * ogra uploads
<ogra> fun, 45M ...
<lool> Yeah
<ogra> hmm, is it because i used the n800 for some days or is it really a lot smoother in scrolling now 
 * persia finally determines the cause and solution for bug #277225
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 277225 in ubiquity "grub-installer missing on lpia, partman-efi missing on lpia, amd64" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/277225
<ogra> hmm, no luck on the Q1 with the new bluez stuff
<persia> No?  It worked for me on the SR and the D4.  I haven't tried on the Y7 mostly because I fear breaking something, and use the Y7 all the time.
<persia> Which device doesn't work, and how?
<ogra> nothing works
<ogra> i dont even see my mobile phone
<ogra> i cant change visibility either
<ogra> oh, heh, apt-get upgrade didnt really pull in everything
<ogra> hmm, actullally it wants to remove more than it installs, hmm
<ogra> hmm, now the applet is gone completely 
<ogra> hmm., the packages conflict
<ogra> and i have constant crashers of the daemon
<ian_brasil> fwiw i just found out that the N8* uses a similar system of boot to hibernate using a modified (proprietary i think)  bootloader which pulls the kernel into RAM
<ogra> the n8x0 is arm
<ogra> that works totally differnt to x86
<ogra> you can actually power off a lot more there
<ian_brasil> ogra: right, but the concept of a boot to hibernate state is not so crazy is what i wanted to discover
<persia> ian_brasil: It's not crazy, as long as you don't update your kernel or modules: that requires a real reboot.
<ian_brasil> boot time is a real big issue..with ogras suggestion we got the 500Mhz Geode from 5 mins down to 50 seconds
<ian_brasil> but it needs to be lower so maybe this is a solution
<persia> Yeah.  I don't really like the definition of "boot time" as a metric.  I prefer "Time to use".  On my Zaurus, I think I actually rebooted only a couple times a year.
<ian_brasil> the worst thing about it is that it is the first thing the client sees so it sets off the 'pitch the system for more dev money' meetings off to a bad start
<persia> ian_brasil: Only if you display it.  Walk in with a hibernated system, and show off a 2-second to working environment, and you'll wow the client.
<persia> That "working environment" only needs to have refreshed the last state of the screen: you have a few more seconds to make things work while the user recovers from the "instant on" effect.
<persia> At least on my Zaurus, it took an extra couple seconds before I could scroll or anything, but most of the time I just wanted to get back to my book, or look at the last state of my Sudoku puzzle.
<ian_brasil> persia: ha ha..well i do not want to be on the customer support lines when it is not 2 secs for joe sixpack to see his desktop when he turns on his new purchase..i would rather ship a hibernate image. Most people have no idea about resume/suspend/hibernate anyway...b.t.w ubuntu-mobile is exactly 2 mins on the eeepc 900 to boot from the stick
<persia> Yeah, I think you'll find an actual install (even to another USB stick) faster.
<ogra> oh, it doesnt segfailt
<persia> OK.  You said segfault.  I can do segfault.  Now you're talking mystery bug, where I'm not so strong.
<lool> 'night folks
<persia> Good night lool.
#ubuntu-mobile 2008-10-03
<ethana2> well, nobody on #ubuntu-netbook, so....
<ethana2> i'm using maximus on 8.10b, and it's not getting rid of my window title bars like it did on 8.04.1
<ethana2> ..would anyone know how i tell it to get rid of title bars?
<ethana2> oh wait
<ethana2> ok, something went wrong and i had to close everything..
<ethana2> it seems to work now, but....
<ethana2> ** (maximus:21091): DEBUG: Excluding: #ubuntu-mobile
<ethana2> Where's its configuration file?
<ethana2> I'd like to remove a few exclusions
<ethana2> ..and before it would exclude from auto maximize, but when you /did/, it would still get rid of the title bar, doesn't seem to be doing that now :(
<ethana2> is there a maximus.conf somewhere?
 * ethana2 restarts pidgin to apply facebookchat installation
<mboman> Anyone here having the eee pc 901?
<ethana2> Ok, maximus keeps bugging all out and making me restart my X server...
 * ethana2 uploads crash report on compiz.real....
<ethana2> Is there a gnome panel applet out there with nothing but window control buttons that operate on the current window?
<ian_brasil> mboman: i have one here
<mboman> ian_brasil: do you feel it being sluggish?
<ian_brasil> are you crazy ;)..it flies with ubuntu mobile
<ian_brasil> it runs open office, gimp and midbrowser at the same time!
<ian_brasil>  I'm trying to create a clean rootstrap for lpia
<ian_brasil>  and I got the error that I cannot download binary-lpia package
<ian_brasil> is this going to be supported?
<ian_brasil> mboman: where do you perceive the sluggishness? 
<mboman> ian_brasil: in X.. I am using the UMPC launcher.. and I find it unresponsive
<mboman> but then I also use more a less a standard Ubuntu build..
<ian_brasil>  you are not  using the ubuntu-mobile image then?
<mboman> nope
<ian_brasil> in this image there are some customizations done ..in ubuntu-mobile-default-settings
<ian_brasil> maybe it is a gconf setting
<ethana2> ian-brasil: oh?
<rbelem> ian_brasil, apt-get source ubuntu-mobile-default-settings ;-)
<ethana2> hmmmmmmmm
<ethana2> rbelem: do you know where maximus stores its configuration file?
<ethana2> oh wait, you said mobile
<ian_brasil> here are the gconf settings
<ethana2> also, I want to try out ubuntu mid, part of why i'm on 8.10
<ethana2> what's the metapackage again?
<rbelem> ethana2, ubuntu-mid and ubuntu-mid-default-settings
<ethana2> will default settings mess anything up?
<ethana2> i'm very particular about my desktop settings
<ian_brasil> http://paste.ubuntu.com/53504/
<rbelem> ethana2, maybe it's better to create a virtual machine
<ethana2> ok no, i don't want those
<ethana2> well i'm installing it now
<ethana2> i want to log out and log into it
<ethana2> i may like it more than what i have
<ethana2> i'll probably find one or two things that are awesome and just integrate them into my own little ubuntu spin
<ethana2> i'm making a customization scripts for myself
<ethana2> tentatively calling the result 'ethbuntu'
<rbelem> cool!
<ethana2> is there a panel applet that only contains controls for the currently in focus window?
<ethana2> close/maximize/minimize
<ethana2> holy crap
<ethana2> Removing ubuntu-desktop ...
<ethana2> Removing update-notifier ...
<ethana2> Removing update-manager ...
<ethana2> why is it /removing/ ANYTHING?!
<ethana2> ethan@home:~$ install ubuntu-desktop
<ethana2> The following packages will be REMOVED:
<ethana2>   ubuntu-mid update-manager-hildon
<ethana2> *HEADDESK*
<ian_brasil> vou descer barra ..depois manja com o canola
<ethana2> ethan@home:~$ install update-manager update-notifier
<ethana2> The following packages will be REMOVED:
<ethana2>   ubuntu-mid update-manager-hildon
<ethana2> Well, how is update-manager-hildon?  Any good?
<ethana2> I guess I'm going to find out.
 * ethana2 logs into MID sessions
<ethana2> what the----
<ethana2> it didn't give me a new session, it took over my gnome one!
<ethana2> ok, well, this billiard game is okay
<ethana2> okay, i want to see the clutter and flash interfaces before i uninstall this
<ethana2> .......erm, nevermind, i can't wait that long
 * ethana2 restarts session
 * ethana2 purges mid install
<ethana2> ok yeah, it installed so many things...  and they're not new UI paradigm stuff, its hardware config and workarounds for tiny screens
<ethana2> how do i remove every package installed within the last x hours?
<ethana2> E: matchbox-window-manager: subprocess pre-removal script returned error exit status 2
<ethana2> hmm
<ethana2> it appears that I'll want to get some work in on my customization script and then do a clean 8.10 install
 * ethana2 reverts to 8.04.1
<ogra> bah, he's gone 
<ogra> someone should tell ethana2 that the netbook-launcher needs a graphics card with composite support, else its quite useless (sluggish as he said)
<ian_brasil> ogra: nice looking calibration mock up b.t.w
<ogra> thanks :) 
<kavon> so how's ubuntu mobile? is the development active? i'm looking into a device and i would LOVE to run it on the device
<kavon> can anyone suggest some affordable ones that are compatible? (with the N810 would work with it)
<ogra> its massively active, yes
<ogra> no, n810 is sadly arm based
<ogra> currently ubuntu only supports ix86 based CPUs
<ogra> there are plans for an arm port and there is the mojo project but officially there is no support yet
<kavon> ogra: ah
<ogra> for the current ubuntu-mid image which targets 4-7" touchscreen devices like the n8x0's i cant suggest any device, for the current ubuntu-mobile image (for 7-9" touchscreens) things like the samsung Q1U are the target devices
<kavon> ogra: what do you use with it, or can you think of any manufacturers or models that work well with UM?
 * ogra uses the Q1U for development ...
<ian_brasil> kavon: ubuntu-mobile works on the eeepc, acer aspire one
<ogra> http://people.ubuntu.com/~ogra/mobile/ there are some screenshots of ubuntu-mobile on a Q1U
<kavon> hum, i'm hoping for somthing pocketable.
<ogra> yeah, the mobile image is for rather larger devices, and for the mid image there are not many out yet
<lool> ogra: You know what'd rock to write USB images?
<ogra> ?
<ogra> tell me :)
<lool> ogra: Something like nautilus-cd-burner: right click on a .img and you get "Write to USB key"
<lool> nautilus-usb-writer :)
<ogra> yeah, that would 
<lool> We could also run usb-creator in this way on ISO images
<ogra> yeah, that sounds cool
<ian_brasil> what is the correct way to disable udev settle ..doing a chmod -x /sbin/udevsettle seems hackish
<lool> ian_brasil: You can dpkg-divert it, but just comment it out from the init scripts
<ogra> ian_brasil, udevsettle really should be removed
<ogra> chmod -x /sbin/udevsettle seems cowardish ... rm -r /sbin/udevsettle ;)
<ogra> and ln -s /bin/true /sbin/udevsettle ;)
<lool> ian_brasil: "dpkg-divert /sbin/udevsettle" and ln -s /bin/true /sbin/udevsettle
<ian_brasil> lool ogra thx
<ian_brasil> ogra: you are really crazy ;)
<ogra> heh
<ogra> just pragmatic
<lool> crazy pragmatic
<ogra> as long as it gets me there :)
 * lool waves 'night
 * ogra goes to prepare some reunion dinner
<ogra> night lool 
<ian_brasil> lool: tchau
<josephus> i just got an Amtek U560 umpc, tried latest snapshot on a usb stick
<josephus> kernel boots ok, but X keeps restarting
<josephus> is there a development image which doesn't use squashfs-loop and drops to shell in case of an error?
<ogra> nope
<ogra> its likely that your umpc uses a poulsbo graphics chipset, sadly intel didnt provide a driver for that yet
<ogra> well, they did, but not for xorg 1.5, it might work with one of the 8.04 (hardy) images
 * ogra needs to go afk again
 * rhp_ is installing VMWare in the mean time in hopes of getting something running that will allow him to create custom image without much hassle...
<josephus> ogra: thanks, it's indeed an Intel 945 stuff. 
<josephus> rhp_: tried that, didn't work
<rhp_> josephus: why not?
<josephus> had some issues with the syslinux
<josephus> dding the squashfs and installing grub might work though
<nanojit> Hi.
<nanojit> Just would like to know what version of Gecko midbrowser is currently built with.
<ogra> xulrunner 1.9 
#ubuntu-mobile 2008-10-04
<josephus> ogra: I just noticed the firmware is missing for the rt73 wifi. I don't know if you plan to support other devices than the Samsung, if yes, I'd like to help making everything work on the Amtek U560
<lool> ogra: Can you move back to aufs in your image as well?
<lool> The new generic has the new aufs
<StevenK> I can force his image too
<lool> StevenK, ogra: I guess first come first serve then :)
<ogra> lool, i need to pull the latest image first, on yesterdays it didnt work
<ogra> lool, it doesnt on todays either, linux-meta wasnt uploaded yet, so i still have the 4.6 image on the build
 * ogra bootstraps a mojo system :)
 * ogra mumbles .... sits since 20min at "unpacking openssl"
<ogra> wow, installing scrollkeeper on arm takes a cebtury
<ogra> *century
<ogra> phew
<kavon> so what is everyone's opinions on WiMax? is the feature worth it in a device or is the service not going anywhere
<yannick> Hi, is it possible to use ubuntu-mobile with lpia kernel and packages?
<lool> ogra: Glad you spotted that
<lool> yannick: That should mostly work, except for some oddness
<lool> Like cheese being built with hildon support on lpia
<yannick> lool, do you know how i must install to get the lpia packages?
<yannick> i mean, it seem the "mobile" images are not lpia based...
<lool> ogra: Do you think we should build lpia images on cdimage?  I'm not quite sure of the difference in performance
<lool> yannick: Why is that you're targetting lpia?
<ogra> i doubt there wil be any
<lool> yannick: You could either install the ubuntu-mobile package manually, or you could try running the tools that we run to create the officila images
<yannick> lool, i want to install on msi wind. I think the atom processor could benefit from the lpia arch, right?
<lool> the second part is a bit hard because the scripts are numerous and a bit hairy
<lool> yannick: Actually, we didn't see much difference between lpia and i386 binaries to be honest
<lool> I would like to revisit the maintenance of a special debian architecture for lpia as in our experience, there's little difference except perhaps for large things like the kernel and libc which could be optimized differently
<yannick> then i'll try the "mobile" image
<lool> yannick: Should work just fine
<ogra> judge yourself :) the images are both live environments
<ogra> you can just run it from the usb key
<lool> Also, the lpia arch causes hard to fix "issues"; for instance some people want to install random public .debs which are only available for i386
<yannick> i'm not like that... i can build .deb myself
<lool> Didn't think about you, but about random people wanting to use proprietary software
<lool> s/about/of/g
<lool> An easy example is *cough* skype
<yannick> do you think CPU intensiv apps (like video encoding.decoding)  could benefit from lpia packs?
<yannick> lool, if you remember i'm part of Ekiga team... ;)
<lool> yannick: Usually, these apps have runtime detection of the CPU
<lool> yannick: That's the reason for the "*cough*" :)
<yannick> k
<lool> yannick: For instance, vlc or liboil will select the most effective algorithm at runtime with sse, sse2, etc. if the CPU supports it
<ian_brasil> skype sucks
<ian_brasil> ithas do_nanosleep and schedule_timeout i
<ian_brasil>  which wake the machine up constantly and eats your battery
<josephus> ENE Technology UTS 6680
<josephus> anyone familiar with this touchscreen?
<josephus> apparently it "works" with the xorg default mouse and synaptics drivers but needs to be calibrated
<josephus> so which touchscreen driver should i use? evtouch?
<ogra> try it
#ubuntu-mobile 2008-10-05
<lool> Cool, new mobile image; syncing the daily
<josephus> could someone help me configuring input devices on the U560?
<josephus> http://pastie.org/285234
<josephus> it has a joystick mouse, a touchscreen a few extra keyboard buttons
<josephus> the joystick is extremely slow, the touch is messed up, unable to calibrate it with evtouch
<lool> ogra: ubuntu-mobile looks quite good on the jax10
<lool> Plus the failsafe Xorg has been fixed in some way and I can login with vesa now; just get the confirmations which i'd like to get rid of
<ogra> cool
 * ogra is just starting up debian gnome on the n800 for the first time
<lool> Hey bfiller 
<lool> Weird, I can only a sda on my jax10
<lool> I thought it had two disks
<lool> sda is 2 GB
<josephus> lool: is there a failsave xorg with vesa?
<josephus> failsafe*
<rhp> Hi again. Now that I finally can build images locally (by installing 8.04.1 in a virtual box...) I want to find out why the fpit input is scaled.
<rhp> There seem to be some posts about the topic, but they suggest that the problem should be solved in Intrepid. ubuntu-mobile uses the regular intrepid repositories, right?
<lool> josephus: I don't quite understand your question
<lool> josephus: failsafe is vesa
<josephus> umm yes, but my X keeps restarting and i cant check the logs (squashfs <3)
<josephus> anyway i ended up installing a desktop 8.04 from usb stick, everything except the touchscreen works out of the box
<rhp> ok, one step further. Turns out the fpit scaling problem is fixed if TrackRandR is on...
<ogra-n800> yay
<stgraber> ogra-n800: gnome ? :)
<ogra-n800> n800 ubuntu-mobile,though i"m cheating, it"s debiam, but ubuntu graphics
<stgraber> :)
<stgraber> ogra-n800: btw, I have ltsp and ldm UVFe bugs for you to review if you have time later. I'll then subscribe ubuntu-release to them.
#ubuntu-mobile 2009-09-28
<mac_v> lool: hi... figured out the problems of the greyscale icons showing up in the apps... now there is no problem of that... kwwii  has decided that the UNR needs a lighter version of the panel icons , so now we will be making a separate version of the panel icons for UNR , which is more brighter. :)
<lool> mac_v: :-(
<lool> New stuff == greater pain
<lool> mac_v: So where's that documented?
<lool> mac_v: Is that in email/bug somewhere?
<mac_v> lool: its not a problem... since either way , you guys were planning on removing the panel icons in UNR while UBUNTU has decided to use the icons , so you would need a separate theme for UNR named Humanity-Dark or likewise... instead of just removing the icons for UNR , we are making it better visible
<mac_v> it would look more consistent than using the gnome fallbacks
<lool> UNR and Ubuntu are based on the same packages; it's not like we consider ourselves separate project
<lool> But the problem here is with doing changes at this stage
<mac_v> lool: i understand , the Humanity-Dark will just be a theme with 100kb
<lool> Beta is on Thursday, but the images we build tonight are already being tested heavily
<lool> It's not the size
<StevenK> We're already after UI freeze, documentation starts to get worked on at this point, etc, etc
<mac_v> StevenK: i agree , but no one got things going until it was very late :(
<mac_v> there is not much change in the theme , *only* the panel icons will become brighter from what they are used atm in UNR
<lool> mac_v: So where are these icons?
<lool> Let's not look for blame
<lool> Situation is that we have this mix of icons, we're the week of beta, and I need a final plan agreed upon
<mac_v> oh... i'm not blaming anyone... if the icons are removed , that would need more change in documentation
<mac_v> lool: Daniel hasnt branched this out yet, i'm now converting the icons to a more brighter color , it will be available in a few hrs
<lool> mac_v: Could you have them in the same humanity tree?
<lool> mac_v: Ideally, I'd prefer introducing only a new binary package; that is, I'd prefer if I'd get a single tarball with both the current humanity tree, and a side tree for the dark version of the icons
<mac_v> you mean , can they be placed in the humanity theme itself...? not without code change
<mac_v> this is the easiest
<lool> mac_v: For instance you could mkdir Humanity, bzr mv * Humanity, mkdir Humanity-dark and add only the changed icons to the dark tree
<lool> And we would have an index.theme in Humanity-dark which inherits humanity
<mac_v> yup
 * Debolaz wish moblin supported 3g modems.
<mac_v> lool: that is how we have planned , the panel icon theme will inherit the humanity main theme
<lool> mac_v: Could you start preparing that so that I can prepare the packaging on my end and we can ship in a relatively little amount of time if that's the way we go?
<mac_v> lool: sure, i'm correcting the icons as we speak... will have the icons ready in a few hrs... could you just confirm me one thing? the color of the font used in the calender
<mac_v> the date on the panel*
<lool> I have no idea
<lool> mac_v: we're using the "Dust" Gtk+ theme if that's of any help
<mac_v> ok , no probs, i'll check it out :)
<mac_v> lool: just to mention.. pls dont package anything from lp:humanity now... this icons have been modified for Ubuntu and will be dark... 
<mac_v> s/this/the
<lool> mac_v: Well perhaps I should if we want them in Ubuntu
<lool> mac_v: You know I'm developing Ubuntu at the same time as UNR; the two projects are built on the same bits
<lool> Except I get to focus on UNR matters
<mac_v> lool: oh , ok.. thats fine... i meant for UNR use
<mac_v> :)
<lool> So whenever something impacts both (as is now the case with this theme) it needs coordination
<lool> So you should rather tell me that the current humanity branch has the planned changes for the desktop but not the required changes to use it in UNR (separate panel icons)   :)
<mac_v> hehe ;)
<mac_v> lool:  when will you be packaging them? 
<mac_v> i just have 1 more minor change to do and they are good to go , will be pushing in a bit
<lool> mac_v: I don't know; it's high on my urgent list, but consider that it's the week of beta and that I also need to care for armel stuff (Dove and iMX51 images notably) and moblin remix and that this is not the sole UNR issue
<lool> So the sooner it's available, the more likely I can do something with it
<mac_v> lool: rev 346 is good to go for Ubuntu... :)
 * mac_v  will be finishing the UNR icons soon
<lool> mac_v: But I can't upload it until it's good to go for UNR because we're using the same package
<lool> bzr: ERROR: Not a branch: "bzr+ssh://bazaar.launchpad.net/~elementaryicons/humanity/Humanity/".
<lool> Did you move your trunk?
<mac_v> lool: its elementrayart now
<mac_v> lool: someone has moved it :/
<lool> mac_v: That sucks; consider using something like "trunk" or something
<mac_v>  new theme name i'll confirm with kwwii , which name he wants used
<mac_v> oh the branch name i'm not sure who changed it :(
<lool> paulliu: Hey, how goes with UMR these days?
<lool> paulliu: Do you plan any other uploads to karmic before beta?
<paulliu> lool: yes. When is the beta?
<paulliu> lool: sorry I went to Taipei office today.
<lool> paulliu: beta is thursday
<lool> paulliu: np
<paulliu> lool: OK. Will do all the upload before wednesday.
<lool> paulliu: Well just let me know if there are any
<lool> paulliu: We're building the image on Tuesday and Wednesday, hopefully not later
<lool> paulliu: only critical bug fixes should go in
<mac_v> lool: both Humanity and Humanity-Dark are done... :)  just waiting for kwwii, he has gone out and will be back soon
<paulliu> lool: OK. Do you satisfy with the current image?
<paulliu> lool: I'm just thinking to bump the version of nbtk.
<lool> paulliu: I didn't try today, the biggest issues are probably the preferences file and the login to GNOME issue
<lool> StevenK: Do we have a bug for that one?
<lool> paulliu: If you feel that's needed, go ahead!
<paulliu> lool: ok. thank you.
<mterry> lool: the login to GNOME issue?  bug 420047.  I was about to look at it
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 420047 in ubuntu-moblin-remix "Logs into GNOME instead of Moblin by default" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/420047
<lool> mterry: Cool thanks
<lool> mterry: So you're doing moblin bits?
<mterry> lool: yeah this week
<lool> Oh ok
<mterry> lool, paulliu: For moblin-ubuntu-remix bugs, are we following distro policy of 'fix released' when uploaded to ppa?
<lool> Yes
<mterry> lool: my myzone page is just a big white blank.  is this a known bug?
<lool> mterry: More or less
 * mterry thinks, "i should probably search before asking"
<lool> mterry: I think omer filed it, not sure, but things are generally quite in flux with the move to 2.1
<mterry> lool: ah sure
<paulliu> mterry: I'm going to fix that blank bug. wait for a while. I'll take anerley, nbtk, mutter-moblin, moblin-panel-* updates first.
<mterry> paulliu: ok, cool.
<mterry> paulliu: what package is setting my moblin image's default gnome background to toys.png?  I can't find it...  Thought you might know, if you ported that bit
<paulliu> mterry: mutter-moblin
<paulliu> mterry: Wait for a while. It's still waiting for build with PPA.
<paulliu> mterry: I've just uploaded it.
<mterry> paulliu: mutter-moblin sets that once you're in.  but something is setting the system gconf default as well -- it shows up as the background for gdm for example
<paulliu> mterry: sorry. I don't rememer.
<rtg> GrueMaster, I'm pretty sure I moderated an email from you last week about tty LSB compliance failures, but I'm danged if I can find it.
<GrueMaster> Yes, I had sent a patch to Pete Graner, which he forwarded on.
<rtg> GrueMaster, did you create an LP report for it? I can't find anything you're subscribed to that references LSB or tty.
<GrueMaster> I think you were asking me what bug this goes against.  I haven't reported it yet, but it was a bug in the kernel created by Alan Cox.
<GrueMaster> It isn't in LP.
<GrueMaster> I can file a bug, but it will take a bit.  I'm in the middle of another task atm.
<rtg> GrueMaster, given that the kernel is in beat freeze I'll need an LP against which to reference the changes.
<rtg> beta*
<GrueMaster> ok.
<rtg> ciao
#ubuntu-mobile 2009-09-29
<mac_v> lool: hi... both humanity and humanity-dark are ready for upload
<lool> mac_v: Sorry I wont upload anything anymore unless I hear differently from design team
<lool> mac_v: See comment on the bug
<lool> Ivanka told me she would comment on the bug but didn't
<mac_v> lool: kwwii pinged you on -desktop
<mac_v> yesterday
<lool> And she said she'd try out the bzr lp:humanity icons and tell me whether I should upload any part of it
<mac_v> lool: kwwii is incharge of this now
<lool> mac_v: I'll tell kwii too
<lool> mac_v: Ivanka is his boss
<mac_v> lool: i know ;) both mat and kwwii have tested it and only then they have approved it
<lool> I'm not doing any change anymore in beta freeze nor before release unless I hear otherwise from Ivanka or Mark
<mac_v> anyways , no probs
<mac_v> :)
<lool> Sorry, it's very frustrating for kwii, you, and me, but I have to cut this madness
<mac_v> lool: no probs :) ... just to inform you since you were asking yesterday if it was ready
<lool> mac_v: Yeah, I wanted Ivanka to comment on the bug so that you'd get the decision from her directly, she told me she would, since she hadn't this morning I did it
<lool> paulliu: Around?
<lool> paulliu: I'm a bit worried at http://piware.de/workitems/mobile/karmic/report.html and am considering killing more items from your list
<lool> GrueMaster: Did you post the alpha 6 LSB results?
<lool> It seems not
<paulliu> lool: ok. 
<lool> paulliu: Which one should we postpone?
<lool> paulliu: All?
<lool> LP #330691, F-spot application window is over shooting the screen: TODO
<ubottu> Bug 330691 on http://launchpad.net/bugs/330691 is private
<lool> GNOME #312283, "About Me" doesn't fit on SVGA screens: TODO
<ubottu> Gnome bug 312283 in about-me ""About Me" doesn't fit on SVGA screens" [Minor,New] http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=312283
<lool> GNOME #554739, gnome-mouse-properties window does not fit on netbook screens vertically (1024x600): TODO
<ubottu> Gnome bug 554739 in mouse "gnome-mouse-properties window does not fit on netbook screens vertically (1024x600)" [Normal,New] http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=554739
<lool> GNOME #543387, iagno: add support to scale the tiles: TODO
<ubottu> Gnome bug 543387 in iagno "iagno: add support to scale the tiles" [Enhancement,New] http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=543387
<lool> paulliu: I guess we'd better have you focus on moblin and drop these items
<lool> paulliu: is that ok with you
<paulliu> lool: Let's postpone all those items and focusing on Moblin.
<lool> ok
<paulliu> lool: Yeah. Same idea.
<paulliu> lool: A bit sad but... I really have no time now.
<lool> On the moblin spec now
<lool> Push possible patches to Karmic: TODO
<lool> Move packages to universe as many as possible: TODO
<lool> I'll postpone the first one
<lool> And keep the second one a little longer
<paulliu> lool: ok. thank you.
<lool> paulliu: Around?
<lool> paulliu: moblin remix is currently failing to build; do you need help in fixing that?
<paulliu> lool: It should be good to build now?
<paulliu> lool: which package breaks?
<lool> paulliu: Didn't you get the email?
<lool> Will tell you in two secs
<paulliu> lool: I get cjwatson's mail and he said it's ok.
<paulliu> about 2 hours ago
<lool> paulliu: Hmm just got a ping from slangasek on IRC
<lool> paulliu: So a livefs is currently building
<lool> paulliu: It built it seems!
<lool> paulliu: that was the failure http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-archive/livefs-build-logs/karmic/ubuntu-moblin-remix/latest/livecd-20090929-i386.out
<paulliu> lool: it should be yesterday's report. Today I update these 7 packages.
<paulliu> lool: So if we kick a build now. We should get a new image.
<lool> should be biult
<paulliu> lool: ok. thanks.
<lool> paulliu: I think it just finished and is pending publication
 * lool mirrors logs manually
<lool> http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-moblin-remix/daily-live/current/ is fresh
 * JamieBennett downloads
 * ian__ downloads
#ubuntu-mobile 2009-09-30
<rbelem> hello all :-)
<mterry> lool, bfiller, forgive my release-ignorance, but what's the moblin freeze policy regarding the beta?  Should I hold off updating packages to 2.1 until after the beta is blessed?
<bfiller> mterry: I'm guessing yes
<lool> mterry: In theory yes
<lool> mterry: In practice what matters is what it's in the image and you could push bug fixes to the PPA in the mean time
<lool> Just don't push any complex changes or library transition etc.
<mterry> Yar.  But are you saying image is no longer pulling from PPA?  There's at least one new image spin coming before beta, I believe
<mterry> And there's that important session fix in the PPA
<mterry> lool: ^
<lool> mterry: No
<lool> mterry: we dont plan to respin anything
<lool> unless we need to
<mterry> lool: oh.  :(  so no session fix?  ah well
<lool> mterry: Well I can respin
<lool> mterry: if you tell me you have a fix for it
<lool> mterry: We dont plan any right now
<lool> mterry: Not for desktop, UNR etc.
<lool> mterry: But if you have a beta critical fix such as the session one, go for it and I'll respin and retest
<mterry> lool: I have a fix for it, it's in PPA.  However, other fixes are in PPA now too, so you'd end up doing more than a cherry pick
<lool> mterry: Are all of these safe?
<lool> Problem is that I cant block/review all PPA uploads as we do for main archive  :-(
<mterry> lool: I didn't do any but mine.  I can't speak to safety, but I'd like to think they are...  :)
<lool> bfiller: What about your changes?
<lool> paulliu, StevenK: You guys pushed moblin stuff?
<mterry> Oh, I did update moblin-menus.  That's probably pretty safe
<mterry> paulliu updated the cursor theme
<mterry> If 18 hours ago wasn't represented in the last image, there are more changes too..   gnome-session, gnome-settings-daemon, etc.
<mterry> moblin-remix-meta
<lool> mterry: Concerning update-a --display x-session-manager, it points to startmoblin
<bfiller> lool: lots of packages were changed in the last 12-18 hours, don't really know what's working and what's not
<lool> mterry: Is there anything else you wanted from that output?
<lool> bfiller: That's a pity, cant tell whether I can respin or not  :-(
<mterry> lool: yeah, but turns out that's not enough.  gdm prefers default.desktop, then gnome.desktop.  It only sometimes cares about x-session-manager
<lool> mterry: So you fixed the other case?
<bfiller> lool: I pushed a new meta packages and fixes for connman yesterday, should be safe
<mterry> lool: well, the session thing is pretty bad.  It's like a moblin that's not really a moblin
<lool> mterry: Ack
<mterry> lool: yeah, I ship a default.desktop that points to moblin.desktop (ala xubuntu-default-settings)
<lool> Ok; I'll go for a respin
<lool> mterry: excellent thanks
<mterry> lool: cool
 * mterry crosses fingers
<bfiller> can't be more broken then the current image :)
<mterry> bfiller: how come the daily builds don't have stuff like gedit anymore?  seems very stripped down
<bfiller> mterry: I pushed a new meta package yesterday that should match what we did for moblin jaunty
<bfiller> mterry: has more of the utils
<mterry> bfiller: ah, cool, I look forward to our new daily build then
<bfiller> mterry: +1
<lool> bfiller, paulliu, mterry: We will have to be much more careful with final coming up
<lool> there's no control to what we can push to PPA, but we need to release a decent image out of it
<mterry> agreed
<bfiller> lool: I'm guessing things should stablize a lot now, there has been a bunch of pushes necessary for the 2.1 upgrade
<bfiller> many changed packages
<lool> bfiller: We cant afford risky uploads near the release though, even if there's so much to fix
<bfiller> lool: ok, it wasn't clear to me that we shouldn't be pushing the 2.1 packages to the PPA at this point
<lool> bfiller: Yeah my bad actually
<lool> bfiller: I think I completely forgot to mention that in our call on Monday
<lool> It was ok to push stuff, but I needed to release a beta image and I didn't mention the freeze or anythng
<lool> selbstschuld
<bfiller> lool: np, next time we will be more away
<bfiller> more aware I mean
<lool> Only one last time: release  ;-)
<lool> terranova.buildd finished at Wed Sep 30 15:32:02 BST 2009 (failed)
<lool> livefs failed to build
<lool>   ubuntu-moblin-remix: Depends: anjal but it is not going to be installed
<lool> mterry, bfiller ^
<mterry> great...
<bfiller> lool: paulliu mentioned problems with anjal which was newly added to the meta package, I can remove it from meta package
<bfiller> or wait until paul fixes issues with it
<lool> bfiller: Cant wait
<lool> is paulliu still around at all?
<lool> He usually goes late to bed but still  :)
<bfiller> lool: I'll push new meta with anjal removed
<lool> bfiller: thanks
<lool> So the problem is libnbtk-1.2-0 versus libnbtk-1.0-0
<bfiller> lool: pushed new moblin-remix-meta, need to wait till it builds
<bfiller> lool: I'll ping you when it's built
<lool> thanks
<bfiller> lool: moblin-remix-meta published, should be good for build
<lool> 16 upgraded, 697 newly installed, 0 to remove and 37 not upgraded.
<lool> Need to get 327MB of archives.
<lool> looks good indeed
<lool> plars, GrueMaster: We'll be having a new moblin remix image soon
<plars> lool: ok
<plars> GrueMaster: *sigh* usb-creator still giving me fits on and off
<GrueMaster> I have found that using gparted to reformat the usb drive first helps immensly.
<lool> I use format and then unplug and replug the key
<lool> it's quite annoying though
<GrueMaster> It's slower than if usb-creator would just wipe the drive first, butit is quicker than having usb-creator open the drive so you can start deleting random things.
 * lool tries without unplugging
<GrueMaster> with gparted, you don't need to unplug and plug in.  It simulates that step as part of the process.
<lool> What annoys me is that it I get a nautilus window on the drive
<lool> Despite having automount off
<ogra> gparted is sooo yesterday 
<ogra> use palimpsest#+
<ogra> *palimpsest
<plars> odd, I just tested oem install, which went pretty well, then remembered something I wanted to check.  When I booted it back up again under vbox it just hangs at a black screen
<lool> plars: are you running multiple vboxes?
<lool> plars: Do you see grub, usplash, anything?
<plars> lool: yes, I get through grub and usplash, then when the resolution change happens (gdm?) it just sits at a black screen
<plars> lool: I was running multiple ones briefly, then decided that was a bad idea
<GrueMaster> plars: did you install the VBoxAdditions?  There is an issue with their driver and 3D support enabled.
<plars> GrueMaster: no, hadn't done that
<plars> GrueMaster: and yes, aware of that issue
<GrueMaster> What version of VBox are you running?
<plars> 3.06
<GrueMaster> ok
<GrueMaster> same here.
<lool> plars: gdm should start xsplash
<paulliu> lool: hi. I'm trying to make anjal build by the right way.
<lool> plars: I didnt try a vbox install; booting live in vbox doesn't require any addition so I'd be surprized if the installed system would
<lool> paulliu: Yeah, what's up?
<paulliu> lool: Well. The current anjal is good for Karmic universe. But to use it in Moblin, we have to build it with different configuration. And also it have to be build against evo-dbus things as well.
<paulliu> lool: So it needs to migrate to nbtk 1.2. New anerley, and.. evo-dbus and eds-dbus things.
<plars> lool: right, worked fine through the user install process and everything, wasn't until the subsequent reboot that I had an issue, so might just be an odd fluke.  Hence why I'm trying to get usb-creator working so I can try it outside of vbox
<paulliu> lool: current anjal in unverise is built with --with-anerley=no. It's good but it will look different than what we want with moblin.
<plars> brb
<lool> paulliu: Ok
<lool> paulliu: So there are two things to consider
<lool> paulliu: One is what we do on the long term there
<lool> paulliu: Is it possible to build --with-anerley=yes in universe or doesn't it make sense?
<lool> paulliu: If it doesn't make sense, then we need to build two versions; change the build to have two passes and create a new anjal-anerley binary package to install the second pass
<lool> paulliu: check e.g. cheese/cheese-hildon as an example
<paulliu> lool: Doesn't make sense. Because anerley is part of moblin. To built with anerley=yes is easy in universe. But without eds-dbus, anjal won't work properly.
<lool> new UMR up for grabs
<paulliu> lool: anerley is still not in universe today because we didn't have new version of telepathy-mission-control-5 and thus our anerley contains tmc5's source code inside.
<GrueMaster> lool: 20090930 or newer?
<paulliu> lool: That's a major block of anerley.
<lool> StevenK bfiller mterry paulliu GrueMaster: New UMR posted
<lool> GrueMaster: 20090930
<mterry> lool: hot!
<lool> paulliu: Ok; seb12 told me he'd push tmc 0.9.0 after beta
<lool> *seb128
<GrueMaster> getting it now.
<lool> paulliu: So after that's done, we can do it
<lool> paulliu: Perhaps you can start preparing the anjal package to be like that in ppa?
<paulliu> lool: Yes. But still with TMC5 patch.
<lool> paulliu: i.e. two passes
<lool> paulliu: We wont need the TMC patch after beta in universe
<lool> paulliu: Oh you mean a port of anjal?
<lool> paulliu: Ok
<lool> paulliu: Hmm is it intrusive?
<paulliu> lool: Ah. It's port patch. :) Because TMC5 port patch contains 2 parts. One is to modify anerley. One is to add tmc5 inside anerley
<lool> paulliu: Ok; it's fine to push anerley with TMC5 patch to universe
<lool> paulliu: But the tmc5 copy wont be needed
<paulliu> lool: OK. 
<lool> paulliu: Because seb128 will include tmc 0.9.0 after beta
<paulliu> lool: Yes. It will be removed when we have a good tmc5
<lool> paulliu: So if you like, start preparing an anjal which builds in two passes so that we can keep "anjal" what it is (--with-anerley=no) and have a new binary package which is built with anerley support ("anjal-anerley")
<lool> paulliu: We will need a new FFE for that change
<lool> paulliu: But we can start doing that in PPA already
<lool> paulliu: BTW new TMC is in unstable alreayd; you can push anerley there   :-)
<paulliu> lool: Wait. How to solve the evolution-dbus dependencies for anjal?
<lool> paulliu: We will just rebuild anjal in PPA
<lool> But keep most of the source in karmic
<paulliu> lool: ok.
<paulliu> lool: OK. Agreed.
<paulliu> lool: Will do that.
<lool> paulliu: Cool; thanks for your work!
<lool> mterry: You rock!  :)
<mterry> lool: you mean you get moblin?  :)  yay
<lool> So the next big thing is that there's no icon to install this stuff
<lool> I can launch ubiquity by hand though
<mterry> lool: it's in apps->Settings
<mterry> lool: but yeah, it should be in favorites or something so it's on the first panel
<lool> oh really, great
<lool> I was worried
<lool> mterry: Would be a nice thing for final
<lool> Frankly it's not shiny but if it installs like that I'm happy to release that as the developer preview image we announced for karmic
<mterry> lool: it does install like it looks in the live image, thankfully
<lool> mterry: Cool
<lool> I'll do an install test now
<lool> in vbox
<plars> lool, GrueMaster: so I just reproduced this again under vbox with oem install, haven't tried with normal install yet but I have that running on my eee right now
<plars> at the point we exit usplash ubuntu logo, the screen resolution changes and I get a black screen, where it hangs
<bfiller> lool: I'm installing now on a netbook
<GrueMaster> plars: what steps have you taken?  I'll see if I can reproduce it here.
<plars> GrueMaster: pretty much just a straight oem install, taking all the defaults
<plars> GrueMaster: I get through the first reboot, and do the prepare for end user, then I reboot and go through the user setup, all that works fine
<plars> GrueMaster: but at that point, if I reboot again, it won't come back up
<GrueMaster> Ok, will try here.
<GrueMaster> Hey, here's an odd user-scenario bug.  Do a normal install with encrypted home directory.  Reboot and set home directory pass phrase.  Once logged in fully, use the  login screen applet under system administration to change the user to auto-login.  What happens is several apps (icewm, nautilus, etc) complain about creating files in the home directory, and you are left with a blank screen w/ background.  To fix, press power button and a
<GrueMaster> I wonder why moblin remix takes so much longer to download than UNR?  UNR xfer rate was bouncing in the 200-700kBps range, and UMR is bouncing between 5-70 kBps.  Using zsync for both from cdimage.ubuntu.com
<GrueMaster> plars: I am unable to reproduce the issues you are seeing in Vbox.
<plars> GrueMaster: ok, I'm retrying on real hardware... in the meantime, I was able to make it boot finally under vbox, but no rhyme or reason to it.  *could* just be some quirkyness with vbox, which wouldn't surprise me, but I want to be sure
<lool> plars: That sounds like it, but best to double check
<lool> plars: Thanks for your careful testing :)
<physic> hello allll 
<physic> how i can connect to internet from mobile in ubuntu??????????
<playya> what do you want to use? UMTS,WiFi,LAN?
<physic> any one can answer?
<physic> no ineed to use dial up or anything can connect from mobile
<tsoncul> physic: what version of Ubuntu are you using?
<physic> hardy heron
<tsoncul> physic: I don't know about hardy that well. You might want to try #ubuntu
<tsoncul> physic: It's a better-frequented chatroom, and they
<tsoncul> -- focus on stable releases
<physic> good thanks
<physic> i saw this channel called ubuntu-mobile i thoght may be use full
<plars> GrueMaster: web browser seems to be broken in the current moblin image
<plars> GrueMaster: doesn't ever get anywhere, no error, nothing, just a blank page
<plars> GrueMaster: either that, or all web pages have suddenly been replaced with "<html></html>" :)
<GrueMaster> There is a bug filed on that.
<plars> GrueMaster: oh, was there one already? I didn't see it, what's the #?
<GrueMaster> need to chmod 644 /etc/resolve.conf
<plars> ah, I remember seeing that
<plars> GrueMaster: nope, it's already 644
<GrueMaster> Big bug.
<GrueMaster> Try moblin-web-browser slashdot.com in a terminal.  Quite impressive.
<plars> GrueMaster: what, the clutter-mozheadless errors?
<GrueMaster> No, the three tabs that get launched in the browser.
<plars> GrueMaster: I don't see that
<GrueMaster> all blank of course.
<plars> GrueMaster: I don't get any tabs
<GrueMaster> weird.
<plars> oh
<plars> yes I do, but just for that site
<plars> GrueMaster: I seem to get additional tabs each time I launch, with any site
<GrueMaster> wget pulls a webpage no problem.
<GrueMaster> and apt-get works (wget isn't installed by default.
<GrueMaster> )
<SgtOompa> Hi, i'm trying to install Ubuntu MID on my Samsung Q1U but I can't get the image to boot from my USB drive, can someone help me?
#ubuntu-mobile 2009-10-01
<plars> njpatel: you around?
#ubuntu-mobile 2009-10-02
<wutzara> Hey all. I have a problem with the Ubuntu netbook remix. My desktop-switcher thinks iam in netbook mode. But iam in classic mode and there is no way to activate the netbook mode
<wutzara> is there any file/configuration or something to tell the desktop switcher that iam in classic mode?
<plars> wutzara: have you tried rebooting?
<wutzara> yes
<wutzara> he starts the desktop normaly but thinks its the netbook mode
<wutzara> maximus is running (i dont know why)
<plars> wutzara: there are some things that are useful for cleaning it up in https://bugs.launchpad.net/desktop-switcher/+bug/349519
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 349519 in desktop-switcher "Switch Desktop Mode corrupted settings" [High,Confirmed]
<plars> wutzara: you may have some luck with that
<wutzara> ah thanks
<wutzara> some corrupted settings in gconf
<thekorn> hi, what's the correct package to report bugs in the dark theme used by current UNR karmic?
<JamieBennett> thekorn: what is the issue?
<thekorn> JamieBennett, When you click on the favicon in Firefox you get this security popup, its text is unreadable, it's gray on gray
<thekorn> let me upload a screenshot somewhere
<JamieBennett> I have UNR here, do you have the latest image (yesterdays?)
 * JamieBennett goes to check firefox
<thekorn> JamieBennett, it was rebuild yesterday? http://cdimages.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-netbook-remix/daily-live/current/ is from 2009/09/30
<JamieBennett> Damn, lots track of days, yes, 30th is the latest
<JamieBennett> Confirmed you bug though
<JamieBennett> (just booted my Mini 10v up and checked)
 * JamieBennett goes to check the right package for this
<thekorn> super, thanks
<JamieBennett> possibly firefox-themes-ubuntu
<JamieBennett> but trying to confirm now
<thekorn> hmm, this package looks a bit outdated
<JamieBennett> yes
<JamieBennett> just saw that
<JamieBennett> Happens on the desktop though as well so its not UNR specific
<JamieBennett> I presume you have Dust as your theme?
<thekorn> JamieBennett, I'm in a live session right now, and when I open the Appearence dialog "customn" is selected
<thekorn> but it looks like dust
<JamieBennett> thekorn: Its definitely Dust, just reset to Dust on my desktop, same thing.
<thekorn> JamieBennett, ok, thanks, is this the correct package than? https://edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/shiki-colors-murrine
<JamieBennett> no
<JamieBennett> gnome-themes-ubuntu
<thekorn> ah, ok
<JamieBennett> try dpkg -S Dust to see the package it belongs to
<thekorn> JamieBennett, where should I report this bug http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/dD86ps8UdDecw7Huk8nEqw?feat=directlink  (description of items in app chooser can be cut of and out of the view)
 * JamieBennett looks
<JamieBennett> There is a bug for that already
 * JamieBennett tries to find it
<JamieBennett> thekorn: https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/netbook-launcher/+bug/437365
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 437365 in netbook-launcher "icons dangle off bottom of screen (dup-of: 435805)" [Low,Triaged]
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 435805 in netbook-remix-launcher "Icons overlap for categories with >= 9 rows" [High,Confirmed]
<thekorn> JamieBennett, ok, thanks
<thekorn> UNR is looking great
<JamieBennett> thkorn: np
<JamieBennett> We hope so :)
<JamieBennett> Still a couple of little bugs
<thekorn> I think you just got a new user ;)
<JamieBennett> :D
<JamieBennett> thekorn: take a look at https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/gnome-themes-ubuntu/+bug/335496
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 335496 in gnome-themes-ubuntu "Menus in Firefox and Thunderbird are dark in the New Wave theme" [Undecided,Confirmed]
<thekorn> JamieBennett, thanks, so need to file another one
<JamieBennett> thekorn: no need it seems, the last comment covers your case (and mine). 
<JamieBennett> ok last comment but one
<thekorn> jup, just read it
<thekorn> JamieBennett, can I bother you with another question? where should I report bugs which seem specific to the UNR UI? e.g the gnome-language-selector dialog is totally distorted for me in UNR
<thekorn> but not is looking fine in a ubuntu live session
 * JamieBennett checks
<JamieBennett> also no problem, thats what we are here for :)
<thekorn> this is how this dialog is looking for me: http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/L6Ss8I18nhPSyZ1tmHEQYg?feat=directlink
<JamieBennett> mmm, just tried it, apt-getting open office stuff for me at the moment :(
<JamieBennett> thekorn: yep UI is still borked
<JamieBennett> You can file it against https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/netbook-remix and we can sort it out from there
<thekorn> JamieBennett, hmm, I can also confirm this when I maximize this dialog in ubuntu
<thekorn> so maybe not UNR specific, but UNR is affected by this
<JamieBennett> thekorn: good catch
<thekorn> workaround for this might be to just not maximuize this dialog
<thekorn> like other config dialogs
<thekorn> not sure how UNR handles this
<JamieBennett> We have a blacklist of apps that don't maximize but maximizing this on the desktop borks it too so its a general problem. Definitely with gnome-language-selection but just looking to see what package that is in.
<JamieBennett> looks like https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/language-selector don't forget to mention desktop and UNR performance and attach the screenshot.
<thekorn> hmm, weird, ubuntu-bug language-selector  is not working (not a genuine ubuntu package), but that's not our problem here ;9
<lool> thekorn: Odd
<thekorn> ok filed as bug 440897
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 440897 in language-selector "Widgets in a maximized gnome-language-selector window are distorted " [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/440897
<lool> thekorn: Oh we have a bug about that
<lool> bug #439859
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 439859 in ubuntu-netbook-remix-default-settings "Language selector window should be excluded" [Medium,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/439859
<thekorn> oh, than I guess I failed badly searching for it
<thekorn> believe me, I tried very hard ;)
<lool> thekorn: can you xprop |grep CLASS in a terminal and click on the langsel window?
<lool> thekorn: it's hard
<thekorn> I still believe it is a bug in language-selector, they should either not allow maximizing their window or fix the UI
<thekorn> lool, how can I do it in UNR? it' impossible to show two windows at the same time, and ALT+TAB is not working when running xprop
<lool> thekorn: There's an easy way, but dont worry I'll do it
<thekorn> super, thanks
<lool> thekorn: Let's keep your bug, I agree
 * thekorn wonders what this 'easy way' is ;)
<lool> thekorn: sleep 10 && xprop ...
<thekorn> ok, too obvious ...
<lool> thekorn: Would you mind testing https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ubuntu-netbook-remix-default-settings/0.6.4 binaries when they comes up?
<thekorn> lool, sure, no problem, will check this page a few time over the next few days, feel free to ping me if you need a tester
#ubuntu-mobile 2009-10-03
<thekorn> good morning,
<thekorn> is there a reason why two finger scrolling is not enabled by default in UNR karmic?
<lool> thekorn: Is it enabled on the desktop?
<lool> thekorn: Binaries are published BTW
<lool> thekorn: https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ubuntu-netbook-remix-default-settings/0.6.4/+build/1272971/+files/ubuntu-netbook-remix-default-settings_0.6.4_all.deb
<thekorn> lool: not sure, will test it in a bit,
<thekorn> lool: yeah, already commented on the bug
<thekorn> lool: and sorry for fileing my bug agains the netbook-remix project
<lool> it's ok
<lool> I mean, no problem
<thekorn> but somehow ubuntu-bug language-selector did not work for me
<thekorn> it's working today, so maybe PEBKAC
<thekorn> lool: two-finger scrolling is also not enabled by default on the desktop :(
<thekorn> lool: but I found another difference between desktop and UNR on my eeepc, a desktop install has compiz enabled per default, UNR is using metacity
<thekorn> (UNR has 'None' selected in the appearence dialog, where on desktop it's 'Normal')
<thekorn> I'm not sure if this is intentional
<lool> thekorn: Yes compiz and clutter don't play well together
<lool> so we're using metacity on UNR
<lool> thekorn: Concerning two-finger scrolling, I never saw this on Ubuntu; perhaps you should propose enabling the feature in lucid and explaining how to do it on ubuntu-mobile@lists.u.c
<thekorn> lool: ok, will write a mail to the ML and open a bugreport for the future later today
<lool> thekorn: thanks
<thekorn> maximus is this tool which takes care of maximizing the windows, and the blacklist is maintained in a gconf setting, correct?
<thekorn> does maximus have a temporary way of blacklisting some windows, a ENVVAR for example, so when developping an application I don't have to change the gconf settings all the time
<lool> thekorn: yes
<lool> thekorn: I dont know of a temporary way
<lool> thekorn: I think it would be best to have the windows use proper props to distinguish them in the first places, but it's hard to tell
<lool> For instance the empathy window can be maximized, but looks ugly when you do
#ubuntu-mobile 2009-10-04
<Ileden> Hi! Is this a place to ask Ubuntu Netbook Remix specific questions?
<lool> Ileden: Yes
