#ubuntu-phone 2013-01-21
<dangersalad> So what would be my best route for an app using local storage? Does the HTML5 local storage work? Is there some kind of SQL?
<dangersalad> I am new to QT altogether, though I am familiar with C++ and well versed in JS
<chriadam> using QML? http://doc-snapshot.qt-project.org/5.0/qtquick/qmlmodule-qtquick-localstorage2-qtquick-localstorage-2.html
<dangersalad> OK, so I guess I have another question about QML{,Quick} and QT. Is QML the main target for the phone OS?
<dangersalad> I had the impression that the QML was just for interface design with some light functionality
<dangersalad> I guess I am just trying to find a good path to start with
<chriadam> i don't know the answer to that, sorry
<dangersalad> I guess I am having trouble finding what to move on to after the tutorial app from ubuntu's page.
<dangersalad> I am having trouble getting the new style tabs to load. I have set the ItemStyle.class to "new-tabs", but they are just blank....
<voodootru> Hello, I see that Ubuntu Phone is finally supposed to be released in February? I was wondering if there is a beta or any way to try it out now?
 * popey points voodootru at the /topic âº
<smartboyhw> voodootru, no:P
<voodootru> cool, thanks guys. Guess I just have to sit tight :S
<dangersalad> any reason openDatabaseSync would not be defined?
<dangersalad> I am trying to use SQLite to save data
<auronandace> !info simon
<ubot5> Package simon does not exist in quantal
<zetheroo> prices in the US are super duper :D
<zetheroo> oops .. wrong window :P
<zetheroo> wondering why the storage spec requirements for the Ubuntu Phone OS install is so high
<popey> zetheroo: they are?
<zetheroo> well for the "High-end Ubuntu "superphone"" it's 32GB
<popey> that'll be normal by 2014
<ajalkane> zetheroo: I guess it's because they intend to include the whole Ubuntu OS there for docking purposes.
<zetheroo> of course if your installing numerous desktop applications you may need this kind of space ...
<zetheroo> yeah, but even the full Ubuntu OS does not need anywhere near 32GB ...
<zetheroo> does anyone know how much room Ubuntu Desktop actually takes on a HDD after a vanilla install?
<ajalkane> zetheroo: of course not, but a buyer would be pretty disappointed buying a "superphone" where the OS takes most of the "available storage"
<zetheroo> true
<zetheroo> but I would imagine the actual install of Ubuntu would take up less than 4GB ... no?!
<ajalkane> I'd imagnie so also... but thinking in powers of two, 16GB is the next lowest, and if the OS munches 4 gigs of that, it might not be a pleasant surprise. With 32 you'd still have 28 gigs left, so it's proportionally speaking less of an annoyance
<zetheroo> ok, supposedly Ubuntu Desktop takes about 3GB and an additional 1.5GB is needed for updating etc ...
<zetheroo> so in theory if one is not going to be installing dozens of desktop applications, 16GB could work pretty well ...
<ajalkane> But really, we're talking about a "superphone" here. 32 gigs of storage place was not much even a year ago. Much less a year from now.
<zetheroo> and actually Linux applications tend to be pretty lightweight as well ...
<zetheroo> yeah true
<ajalkane> Apps are not the only thing people want to use their phone for. The majority of content is what users want to store there. Videos, pictures etc.
<zetheroo> yes - but if the phone has an SD slot you could store your media and data on there ... and leave the onboard memory for running the OS and apps ...
<ajalkane> I somehow forgot music. I still see people lamenting how they can't store their whole music collection on a phone :)
<zetheroo> I wonder if it will be possible to install the apps to SD
<zetheroo> LOL
<ajalkane> The specs say 32GB eMMC + SD, so apparently they don't care how the storage is provided
<zetheroo> my need for this Ubuntu Phone OS is pretty straight forward with not much media or data storage ... basically just a tool for a sys admin
<ajalkane> O guess all you need then is the "entry level Ubuntu smartphone" ;)
<zetheroo> well I would not mind coming into work and docking my phone in and working on that :D
<zetheroo> since I work with Ubuntu on a Thinkpad anyhow atm
<zetheroo> would be pretty nifty to leave the laptop at home and just bring the "superphone" to work - hehe
<ajalkane> Yeah, it does promise some sweet possibilities.
<ajalkane> But we'll see how it materializes
<zetheroo> it would be a shame to buy an expensive high-end phone and then find out that Ubuntu Phone is not ported to that model :P
<zetheroo> I wonder how that will pan out ...
<ajalkane> I'm not going to buy anything until real Ubuntu Phones (or Jolla phones) are out.
<popey> me too âº
<ajalkane> I kept using my last phone (N95) for five years. I don't mind sitting on my ass for another 3-4 years if Ubuntu/Jolla takes their time, if there's nothing compellive in the market.
<k1l_> i want an ubuntu-phone now! :)
<ajalkane> Hehe... well me too
<popey> I loved my N82
<k1l_> honestly, im looking out for a cheap gnex on ebay to give it to my girlfriend. but i think im gonna need it for maintainance at end of february ;p
<ajalkane> I have no experience of N82, but N95 was the first smartphone I wanted to BUY. It was just perfect for its time. I wasn't interested in buying a smartphone after that until N9 came. Now I'm not interested until Ubuntu/Jolla comes out with something :).
<k1l_> i was very satisfied with the motorola milestone (the european droid). but it was to slow, had to less ram and the locked bootloader was a real showstopper. but i miss the hardware keyboard :/
#ubuntu-phone 2013-01-22
<arij> is the image out
<usererror> I suppose I could say Hello
<_raven> hi
<_raven> will ubuntu phones be developed for asus padphone 2 too?
<popey> not sure that's been determined yet
<ChaozHenchman> well it has all the specs needed for the superphone
<_raven> any way to make a request for it?
<ChaozHenchman> I guess you would need to email ASUS and ask them to work with Canonical
<ChaozHenchman> but they won't make phones till next year
<ChaozHenchman> so don't worry about it right now?
<ChaozHenchman> is that phone on the market yet?
<ChaozHenchman> I'm not seein a price
<_raven> yes padphone 2
<_raven> ChaozHenchman you found it?
<ChaozHenchman> it doesn't say anything about US carriers and prices
<ChaozHenchman> even though the articles were made in October
<_raven> look at amazon for example. at least in germany its available
<ChaozHenchman> http://www.amazon.com/Asus-ASUS-Padfone2-Station-64G/dp/B00A45G66I/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1358856929&sr=8-1&keywords=asus+padfone+2
<ChaozHenchman> yeah, it's pretty overpriced
<_raven> yes it is but i look at the 32 gb model
<_raven> but think about buying a similar tablet and smartphone alone
<_raven> and i need both so its nearly a combined price
<_raven> but in germany its not so expensive as in $->â¬
<spobat> hi
<spobat> sorry, but I don't get it. Why to prefer ubuntu-phone over android?
<arij> you dont have to prefer it
<spobat> well if it has no advantages, why does it exist at all?
<spobat> ( sorry for the provocative language)
<GuidoPallemans> hav you seen the industry proposition?
<spobat> I'm not sure
<om26er> then you should.. I think you are even asking the wrong question ;)
 * om26er hides
<GuidoPallemans> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuPhone
<GuidoPallemans> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cpWHJDLsqTU
<ChaozHenchman> do you think that the phone will come after the April 2014 release?
<ChaozHenchman> since it's LTS?
#ubuntu-phone 2013-01-23
<mattwj2002> hi guys
<mattwj2002> anyone want to give me a preview version?;)
<tinti> hi, is there a channel for Ubuntu for Android?
<tinti> http://www.ubuntu.com/devices/android
<tinti> is it deprecated in favor of ubuntu-phone?
<popey> no
<popey> they are two separate products
<tinti> popey: nice, but in canonical page when I do "Get in touch" I am redirect to ubuntu phone "Get in touch"
<popey> its the same team that you'd be getting in touch with
<tinti> I am really interested on Android + Ubuntu and also Ubuntu in a phone.
<tinti> thanks popey
<Tak> actually, will ubuntu phone have a UfA-like integration?
<tinti> Tak: like motorola atrix?
<Tak> I don't know
<Sinan___> hi
<Sinan___> How is Ubuntu-phone going to solve GPU problems for arm chipsets since their driver source codes are mostly closed?
<Sinan___> Most of video demonstrations show that hardware video acceleration is not working in Ubuntu-phone.
<itsme__> HI!
<tinti> is there an ubuntu android channel?
<k1l> tinti: why not asking here?
<tinti> ?
<tinti> I am
<tinti> thanks :)
<okan_> hello !
<okan_> does anyone know when the img available for download ?
<k1l> okan_: you saw the /topic ?
<okan_> no
<k1l> then reaad the topic, it will answer your question :)
<okan_> can u send me plz the link for topic ? :)
<k1l> okan_: type "/topic" int your irc client or scroll up to the the topic when its displayed when you enter the room
<hourd> type "/topic" or it should be at thd top of youf irc client
<okan_> ty
<Sinan___> is here anybody alive?
<hourd> I hope so otherwise it is a strange afterlife
<Sinan___> :)
<Sinan___> I'm curious about ubuntu phone and hardware video acceleration for arm GPUs
<Sinan___> all the video demonstration I saw showing that there is no sign of that
<Sinan___> no HW GPU acceleration
<popey> there is HW GPU acceleration
<popey> i watched a hardware accelerated 1080p Iron Man 3 trailer on the device in the bar last week âº
<Sinan___> are you sure? Is h264 video playback HW aacelerated
<Sinan___> umm nice then
<Sinan___> AFAIK it's hard to support GPU acceleration since most of arm gpu's source codes are not open
<Sinan___> especially exynos platform
<popey> Well, that makes it even more awesome âº
<Sinan___> not only arm phones, arm usb sticks have no open source gpu drivers. On youtube you see video playback on usb sticks are very laggy
<Sinan___> due to SW decoding
<Sinan___> popey what device do you have?
<Sinan___> nexus 4?
<popey> I personally have an iPhone
<Sinan___> so how do you run Ubuntu-phone?
<popey> But I played with a Galaxy Nexus running Ubuntu Phone.
<hourd> Sinan___: the device all the ubunut phone stuff is being demod on is the samsung galaxy nexus not the nexus 4
<Sinan___> the one that has single core cpu?
<hourd> its dual core as far as i know
<Sinan___> umm
<Sinan___> let me check its gpu
<popey> powervr
<popey> SGX540
<popey> dual core 1.2GHz A9 cpu
<Sinan___> aah that one already has an open source driver from TI, right?
<Sinan___> I have a note 2 and I'm wondering that whether I'll be able to use Ubuntu-Phone on it.
<hourd> i'm tempted to ubuntu up my nexus 7
<Sinan___> Because Samsung is the worst developer friendly company and they don't share anything about their exynos platform
<Sinan___> Without source codes I'm wonder what ubuntu developers are going to do :S
<Sinan___> wondering*
<unbas> Buenas tardes, hay alguien en la sala de habla hispana?
<Sinan___> Raspberry PI has an opensource gpu driver but its cpu is armv6 not v7
<popey> the RPi GPU driver is _not_ open source
<Sinan___> but they claim so
<Sinan___> at least HW video decoding is working
<Sinan___> I saw it in their videos
<popey> AIUI there's an open source shim behind which there's a binary blob
<popey> http://airlied.livejournal.com/76383.html
<Sinan___> let me read
<Sinan___> damn :@
<hourd> Its a bit of a cheat
<Sinan___> I really don't understand, why the hell they don't share their sources? what's the purpose?
<popey> the usual reasons "we can't because it would release secrets about our platform / device", and "we can't because bits were sublicensed from others, so we aren't allowed"
<hourd> business
<Sinan___> I have Galaxy Note 2 and it has Mali-400 GPU. Without gpu driver I won't be able to have GPU acceleration in Ubuntu-phone which will make it useless (for me):@
<Sinan___> So what about phone that will shipped with ubuntu-phone os? Will ubuntu developer be getting driver source codes for them?
<Sinan___> by the way apologize for my english grammar mistakes, it's not my first language
<popey> Sinan___: yes, we'll release source for what we can
<Sinan___> Well, my next device will be an Ubuntu-Phone then :) if my note 2 will not be supported
<rZr> jono, I have a qml text editor app to be ported to ubuntu phone
<atc3030> is there source that is readily available for this? even if it is not complete or a already built image for any device?
<disharmonic> atc3030, i believe Canonical will release the source along with the Nexus image in February(iirc)
<atc3030> ok. i didn't know if this was the official channel. thanks
<disharmonic> I believe this is the official unofficial channel :P
<Sinan___> lol
<atc3030> that works
<jono> rZr, nice!
<rZr> thx
<tim_> hello
<tim_> is anyone talking on this channel?
<mhall119> for those who haven't seen: http://www.jonobacon.org/2013/01/23/community-driven-ubuntu-phone-core-apps/
<tim_> well i think having a terminal by default in the os is not a good idea if its marketed further than ubuntu users
<bef0rd> nice mhall119
<rZr> it is
<rZr> a text editor would be suitable too
<Selimeren> tÃ¼rk var mÄ± tÃ¼rk :D
<Sinan___> may be why ?
<Selimeren> merak :D
<Sinan___> I don't think any non-English language is allowed here
<Selimeren> Okay
<Sinan___> ;)
<k1l> the early adopters will definitely demand a terminal. even if they will never need one
<hourd> yes i would want a terminal
<mhall119> Sinan___: Selimeren: it's not that non-English isn't allowed, it's just that you'll find more people who can understand it
<Sinan___> I don't really know the rules I just guessed so
<Sinan___> many forums don't allow non-english talk
<Sinan___> many forums, chat rooms etc
<surgemcgee> I have a quick question regarding the xmlListModel. Is it good practice to utilize many xmlListmodels containing only one source file declaration? Or should there be only one xmlListModel is only one source file is used? Also, where can I find some good examples of Ubuntu-apps? Launchpad?
<surgemcgee> In other words, there should not be more than one source: entry to the same url.
<surgemcgee> Surgemcgee - [OFF] has changed to HTTP 404 [Not Found]
<n-iCe> hello guys
<n-iCe> is ubuntu available for download?
<surgemcgee> is this HTTP 406 ?
<surgemcgee> It feels like a have HTTP 300
<mhall119> n-iCe: Ubuntu desktop and server are available to download, not the phone images yet
<alo21> hi all... where can I find a useful guide about qml syntax?
<mhall119> alo21: you mean a guide to writing an app using QML, or syntax documentation about QML itself?
<n-iCe> mhall119: thanks
<surgemcgee> http://www.questml.com/syntax/ `Surgemcgee gets +1 points to 2pt total`
<alo21> mhall119, if I understood well, QML is just to manage GUI, the core is Java. Right?
<mhall119> alo21: no, no Java at all
<mhall119> you can use Javascript (not related to java, despite the name) to your QML app to provide logic and controls and stuff
<Selimeren> Hi, I want to ask some questions. Which phone should I buy to install Ubuntu?
<mhall119> Selimeren: initial phone images will be for the Galaxy Nexus GSM phone
<alo21> mhall119, OK... change my question. Is there some teams which are writing apps for the phone? If yes where are they?
<mhall119> alo21: https://launchpad.net/ubuntu-phone-coreapps is the list of planned default apps
<mhall119> see http://www.jonobacon.org/2013/01/23/community-driven-ubuntu-phone-core-apps/ for more information about how those are going to be developed
<mhall119> alo21: there's also a G+ community: http://www.jonobacon.org/2013/01/23/community-driven-ubuntu-phone-core-apps/
<Selimeren> Can I use android and ubuntu on my phone same time ?
<mhall119> no
<alo21> mhall119, I would be part of the team and helping coding. I setted all up and I am going to subscribe ML. What else should I do?
<mhall119> alo21: have you filled out this form? http://developer.ubuntu.com/get-started/gomobile/#step-get-involved
<alo21> mhall119, yes I did
<mhall119> alo21: in that case you can either wait to see if there's an opening on one of those apps, or start writing your own
<Selimeren> I want to use ubuntu on my phone and I need to test my apps (I am developer) on android and ubuntu too. What can I do when I install it ?
<alo21> mhall119, Will I receive an email when if an app becomes open?
<mhall119> alo21: yes, you'll get an invite, probably from david planella (dpm)
<alo21> OK
<mhall119> Selimeren: we will provide a device emulator you can use
<Selimeren> mhall119, Thanks for your answers. I can't wait for install it on my phone. I didn't buy Galaxy Nexus yet but I will buy it for install Ubuntu. I hope I can buy it before release date.
<n-iCe> will it be available only for nexus?
<alo21> mhall119, I hope to be part of this amazing adventure!
<mhall119> n-iCe: that's all we're sure about right now
<n-iCe> sad
<n-iCe> I got a Gs3
<mhall119> n-iCe: all the source code will be available though, so I'm sure images for other phones will be produced
<alo21> hi. What is the best way to ensure a single instance? pid.lock, or fcntl?
<alo21> sorry. Wrong channel
<salvarez01> hello
<aliendude5300> I signed up to get involved as a volunteer developer, and I never got a reply back indicating that I was accepted to work on any of the core applications as mentioned on Jono Bacon's blog. Is there anything I can do to contribute? I'm not good at graphics design, but I can write code.
<couscous> hello world !
<GetTheLot> Lol
<aliendude5300> I take it that (almost) nobody is here...
<bkerensa> ;0
<bkerensa> aliendude5300: someone will likely be in touch if there is a good match
<GuidoPallemans> aliendude5300: they got 1500+ signups, so I guess they just picked the more advanced ones...
#ubuntu-phone 2013-01-24
<payload> hiho
<payload> in android, there is yet another concept for starting a different app for some sub-task. what is the proposed way of doing this in ubuntu? registering an url scheme handler?
<mhall119> aliendude5300: the code will be public from the beginning, so you can still contribute code
<mhall119> or you can start another app project of your own
<Dupe> Hi there! I just received my motorola atrix lapdock, and now I found out about ubuntu for phones. Looks like a sweet combination to me :D
<mhall119> Dupe: does that one have the Webtop?
<Dupe> mhall119: Well its actually just a screen with battery and keyboard. I am planning to buy a fast phone and just connect it to the mini HDMI and usb ports
<mhall119> Dupe: oh, I thought you had the atrix too
<hourd> those things seem to be used to make raspberry pi laptops as well
<dmj_nova> mhall119: would either of the swipes I suggested in the file browser conflict with ubuntu phone?
<Dupe> mhall119: nah, not fast enough
<mhall119> dmj_nova: link?
<dmj_nova> https://ubuntu.mybalsamiq.com/projects/ubuntuphonecoreapps/File+Manager+Directory+Icons+View
<dmj_nova> https://ubuntu.mybalsamiq.com/projects/ubuntuphonecoreapps/File+Manager+File+Metadata+View
<mhall119> dmj_nova: as long as the swipe starts inside the app, you're fine
<mhall119> the Unity shell only uses swipes that originate outside of the screen and come in
<dmj_nova> okay, so even the "full swipe across the screen" gesture in Ubuntu Phone requires you to start off the edge
<mhall119> yes
<dmj_nova> cool
<mhall119> basically, Unity owns the edges, apps own the screen
<mhall119> though apps own the bottom edge too, but I'm not sure if that's shell integration (like HUD) or something each app will have to implement
<dmj_nova> Yeah, Canonical finally made me want a phone that ships with Android :P
<mhall119> I hope you want one that ships with Ubuntu too :)
<hourd> dual boot :P
<dmj_nova> Yeah, I'd buy one today if I could!
<dmj_nova> still using a 3 year old smartphone that has always been "the next best thing to an Ubuntu phone"
<dmj_nova> Nokia n900
<Dupe> Is there any way to make ubuntu happen on your phone right now?
<hourd> for the hw keyboard?
<qrwteyrutiyoup> wow, n900 :)
<dmj_nova> I could easily run Ubuntu on my phone, but then I couldn't make or receive phone calls
<dmj_nova> yeah, it was a crazy awesome phone in its day
<dmj_nova> I once wrote a webcam app on it while waiting for a professor to finish a meeting.
<hourd> yeah i use a htc desire z for android phone with hardware keyboard and a nexuz7 dualbooting android and ubuntu for all my linux needs ;)
<hourd> *nexus
<hourd> dmj_nova: thats cool :)
<dmj_nova> An Ubuntu phone with hardware keyboard would be a dream come true
<dmj_nova> couldn't imagine writing code on a single screen device with onscreen keyboard
<hourd> it really would
<dmj_nova> hourd: What's your involvement with Ubuntu Phone?
<hourd> none, but i would love to get involved
<dmj_nova> hourd: You see their seeking design input on 12 default apps?
<hourd> i was unaware of this
<dmj_nova> www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2013/01/12-default-ubuntu-phone-apps-to-be-community-created
<hourd> cheers
<bobweaver> andyone savy with qml that wants to look at something for me ?
<bobweaver> I am trying to pass of a color of a text property in a well property . but I get the error "Unable to assign QString to QColor"      Here is the code.  for the Root Item  http://paste.ubuntu.com/1565024/       Here is the code that calls the Root Item http://paste.ubuntu.com/1565034/
<mhall119> bobweaver: does QML have a "color" type?
<bobweaver> NM  had to use the " property color "   not " property string "
<mhall119> ah, that's what I was thinking, but didn't know enough QML
<bobweaver> thanks though mhall119  :)
<mhall119> np
<bobweaver> yeah dude on qt-qml told me about the property thingy
 * mhall119 is off to bed, see you all in the morning
<cumptrnrd> Does anyone have this running in a Nexus 4?
<cumptrnrd> I have only seen pictures and videos of the Galaxy Nexus
<dmj_nova> cumptrnrd: I think it's just a bit too early for that yet
<dmj_nova> The images and source code will be released in February.
<Sergey__> hello all. has any mockups of Ubuntu Weather?
<sqrt7744> will qml based apps for harmattan be easily portable, i.e. similar components like PageStackWindows and whatnot?
<mitro> hi all
<mitro> I'm new to Ubuntu OS. Using an MacPro, iPhone, so can I get invoke to this project?
<mitro> If available, could anyone tell me where to get start :D
<GuidoPallemans> mitro: by programming? or how exactly?
<tsdgeos> sqrt7744: you can find the available sdk at http://developer.ubuntu.com/get-started/gomobile/
<tsdgeos> the concepts seem to be similar
<mitro> What do you mean by "by programming"?
<mitro> Thank tsdgeos.
<doomlord> does ubuntu for android replace or augment android
<doomlord> will it work ok on tablets eg nexus 7
<popey> U4A augments, not replaces android
<popey> Ubuntu for Phones replaces android
<doomlord> ah, "ubuntu-for-android" contrasts with "ubuntu-for-phones"
<popey> ya
<popey> two separate products
<doomlord> so the latter has telephony integrated i guess (my friend asked, "what happens if your docked phone takes a call, isn't that inconvinient.." to which skype should have provided a decent answer lol)
<doomlord> anything else present or missing ?
<doomlord> is it primarily telephony + tiny touchscreen UI optimization?
<popey> they both have telephony features
<popey> calls / texts
<doomlord> its of great interest to me.. ubuntu has become my primary OS
<doomlord> can you confirm it is honest-to-god linux, e.g. one can fire up a terminal and "sudo apt-get ... "
<doomlord> (honest to god Desktop linux, i should say)
<ninjatux3> #fossevents
<astraljava> But... but... aren't terminal commands as honest-to-$deity in any linux, outside desktop category, too? ;)
<doomlord> honest to $deity linux in the way that ubuntu or fedora are wheras android is not .. the whole linux desktop experience & package manager
<hourd> yes its uspposed to run full ubuntu with a phone interface
<doomlord> arm vs x86 binaries of course
<doomlord>  sounds awesome
<hourd> how i understand it is that it's like running a different display manager while in phone form and the external display runs unity or whatever you put on it
<doomlord> i have a gaalaxy nexus which i gather is the hardware its demo'd on
<hourd> full full ubuntu(arm) backend
<doomlord> display-manager... window-manager? or not quite
<doomlord> customized unity i see
<doomlord> but the display manager controls how it logs  on and so on?
<doomlord> i guess its unlikely phones will ever come with it pre-installed
<hourd> with what pre-installed?
<doomlord> ubuntu
<hourd> why not?
<doomlord> joe public will prefer android
<hourd> ...
<hourd> that was said about iphone when android came out
<hourd> look at android now
<doomlord> i mean for *me* , if its what is being said here, it would be perfect
<doomlord> but i'm not typical. i often like things purely because they are differnt
<jussi> wayland will make a decent experience out of it.
<doomlord> ah is this using wayland yet?
<jussi> Not sure if they have fully implemented yet, but as I understand the release will have wayland
<hourd> what im trying to say is before android came out th eoption was iOS or some other things. then android came otu and people said why get android iOS is better. now android is huge
<doomlord> ok
<hourd> ubuntu phone will hopefully be the same
<hourd> or similar progression
<hourd> the proper docking is a major feature. desktop in your pocket
<doomlord> same with windows8, i think once you see the crossover (and hybrid devices) the contraversial post-wimp phonified desktops will start to make more sense to people
<doomlord> but i hope true windowing is kept just like terminal/textmode
<doomlord> ubuntu for *android* ... do they keep the menubar visible for touchfriendliness..
<doomlord> i guess ubuntu phone interface optimized apps wont use menubar at all
<popey> ubuntu for android is android when a phone and ubuntu when docked
<popey> so when docked it would be attached to a screen
<popey> with mouse and keyboard
<popey> so would function just like a pc running ubuntu does now, but with telephony features enabled and integration with the phone stack
<hourd> basicly in docked treat it as a desktop, you dont touch it and use an external screen
<popey> so the menu bar would work just as it does now
<popey> correct
<hourd> same with ubuntu phone
<hourd> but that also has full ubuntu backend in phone form but with a phone ui
<doomlord> i'm one of these people who thinks they should keep the menu fully visible but its not a major flaw
<hourd> doomlord: menu visible on the phone screen?
<doomlord> i figured 'globalmenu' might actully be ok with top edge swipe on android tablets
<hourd> thats how it is
<doomlord> phone screen .. i guess a traditional WIMP menu will really suffer
<hourd> doomlord: have you seen the demo videos on the phone ui?
<doomlord> a few
<hourd> so its nothing liek a desktop ui
<doomlord> i've seen the dock appearing from right edge swipe
<hourd> yeah
<hourd> left
<doomlord> and the indicator swipes, thats smart
<doomlord> oops left yes
<doomlord> i always thought 'expo' would be nice on a touchscreen
<hourd> when docked it outputs on an external screen and is no different to your current desktop ubuntu but running arm not x86
<doomlord> it probably doesn't do that though
<hourd> which is nice
<hourd> expo?
<doomlord> (copy of mac osx spaces)
<hourd> ?
<doomlord> (compiz plugin.. zoom out to see multiple desktop thumbnails)
<hourd> sorry i havnt used OSX much
<hourd> oh
<hourd> hasnt linux has that for over a decade?
<doomlord> yes
<hourd> "copy of osx spaces"?
<popey> the phone doesn't really have a concept of desktops
<popey> you have full screen apps
<hourd> but yes you will have that in docked
<popey> indeed
<hourd> but not on phone ui
<doomlord> in phone mode i guess it will all be fullscreen
<popey> although we're switching to one desktop by default now
<popey> not four
<hourd> the option is there though right?
<popey> yes
<hourd> good :)
<popey> just default changing
<hourd> thats fine
<doomlord> i thought it would be nice if it was 1 desktop until you maximize something
<hourd> less overhead i asume?
<doomlord> kind of like how osx lion does things... a different type of maximize which is really 'fullscreen on its own new workspce'
<popey> its not done for that reason
<hourd> popey: thats just default on unity though? I can just install cinnamon or something and do whatever
<popey> of course
<popey> I'm only talking about unity
<hourd> yeah :)
<popey> not some random other 3rd party desktop âº
<hourd> didnt know if there was some funky OS limitation
<hourd> yeah. i dont use unity much
<doomlord> what wouldbe really nice on unity is if it dynamically added screens as you fill them .. 1-> 2x2 -> 3x3
<hourd> doomlord: gnome3 does that
<hourd> number of active workspaces + 1
<doomlord> unfortunately i've never enjoyed gnome.. strange.. i prefer everything asside from that in unity
<hourd> cinnamon has a 1-click to add new workspace feature which is nice
<doomlord> i think the desktop overview zooming would really suit the phone screen
<hourd> its liek a mix of gnome2 and 3
<hourd> doomlord: how so? is the screen no far too small to do that?
<doomlord> android just puts thumbnails on the side..
<hourd> oh...that
<hourd> im pretty sure theres a list of open 'apps'
<hourd> on the 'home' screen maybe
<doomlord> synergy might be interesting on this
<hourd> oh?
<doomlord> you know the tool for providing the illusion of multiple machines being one multi-screen desktop :)
<doomlord> lets say your desktop pc or laptop can only drive 2 screens.. but you  have a phone aswell -  use it for  3rd screen :)
<jussi> I like the Meego/Harmatttan way of showing open apps on the phone
<doomlord> something else that would be awsome i think is a desktop keyboard-dock, placing the phone where it can be used as a trackpad
<hourd> doomlord: you can do the trackpad thing with android, theres apps for it
<hourd> also yeah sorry, i know what synergy is just a phone is rather small for it
<doomlord> well i hope this does appeal to joe public aswell
<doomlord> phone+TV could suit joe public over and above laptop/desktop
<hourd> i'm about to try synergy on ym laptop + nexus 7
<doomlord> you have linux on nexus7 ? i'm considering getting one, but if linux runs well on it that would be a more copelling reason
<doomlord> commpelling^ reason to get one
<hourd>  dual boot ubuntu 13.04 and android 4.2.1
<doomlord> wow that works ok?
<hourd> works fine
<hourd> bit of modding required
<doomlord> will one be able to dual  boot a phone
<hourd> liek unlocking bootloader, custom bootloader, ubuntu rom etc..
<hourd> but it runs fine
<hourd> yeah you can dual boot phones fine, again will need custom bootloader and compatable rom and kernel
<hourd> doomlord: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Nexus7
<doomlord> with linux docked will you still be able to view the phones' filesystem when plugged into  pc as a usb device
<hourd> sorry could you rephrase that?
<doomlord> if you have ubuntu-phone - can you view the phone's filesystem as a USB hard-drive when you plug it into a PC
<hourd> i'd imagine so
<hourd> will my android phone i can, and also use it as usb host
<hourd> *with
<riply> Hi guys, I've read the FAQ and come here with a question that's more than likely been asked a thousand times.. will I be able to ditch the iOS and install this on my iPhone?
<doomlord> i'm in 2 minds.. i have a galaxy nexus and an ipad, but as far as gadgets go i'm very tempted by a galaxy note , either 5.5 or 10.1.. i gather they will be doing  a galaxy-note- 7.7 which would be perfect
<k1l> riply: never is that gonna happen
<riply> doomlord, they say in the FAQ that they've not yet decided whether you're going to get root access, so I'd imagine that would answer your question with 'maybe'?
<k1l> riply: you bought the wrong device if you want to be able to flash your own roms
<doomlord> how do you physically go about reinstalling
<riply> k1l, that is not what I wanted to hear :(
<doomlord> can you backup your phone's total state before installing ubuntu-phone
<riply> thankfully my contract is almost up. Samsung here we come.
<hourd> doomlord: it will probably just overwrite the entire device
<hourd> unless you use multirom or something
<riply> doomlord, does that mean, however that you'll be able to access the filesystem though? ie chmod and things like that?
<doomlord> i'm kind of hoping one can backup the device :)
<hourd> doomlord: yeah abd backup via the android sdk
<riply> doomlord, there is talk of a duel-boot?
<k1l> i think it will erase the android while installing.
<smartboyhw> Hmm I tried installing qt5-meta-full in the Canonical Qt5 beta 1 PPA, and two of the packages are not installable (due to build errors in Ubuntu repo)
<riply> I guess only time will tell :)
<smartboyhw> Any solutions?
<k1l> dont see that there is enough space for both OS on the storage
<hourd> doomlord: http://i.imgur.com/eqyUiYv.jpg just taken of my nexus 7
<riply> k1l, also true!
<doomlord> that looks awesome
<riply> agreed - awesome
<hourd> just waiting for the otg adapter to plug in peripherals
<hourd> then goign to 3d print a dock for it all
<doomlord> can you use bluetooth keybord
<hourd> yes
<k1l> hourd: what about the touch-friendlyness? i had ubuntu-arm running on my tablet an unity wasnt really good to use
<hourd> its ok, you have to be pretty acurate when closing windows
<hourd> but otherwise its fine
<doomlord> its got tweaks like 3-finger window-drag?
<hourd> no idea let me try
<doomlord> i thought a pinch-gesture for desktop overview would be wesome
<hourd> yes
<doomlord> i thought a pinch-gesture for desktop overview would be awesome
<hourd> yes it does
<popey> smartboyhw: ask bzoltan
<hourd> doomlord: thanks for that. i did not know
<doomlord> i recall how osx snow leopard was awesome with 3 finger drag on the trackpad with 'spaces' .. that was the best window-management of any system (the way spaces+expose aka expo+scale worked together with multitouch)
<doomlord> do they use 4 finger swipe for anything
<hourd> 4 gets a bit awekward
<smartboyhw> bzoltan, ping
<doomlord> how is ubuntu/androids onscreen keyboard controlled
<petko10> hey guys , I wanted to ask if there are plans to get the Ubuntu TV in the Ubuntu Phone . As in - will it at some point be possible to connect the phone via HDMI to a tv/screen , launch an app (to start Ubuntu TV) and use the TV remote to control it (via HDMI CEC)
<JavierDelgado> Hi all
<doomlord> does the nexus 7 have a dock that  can do hdmi out
<hourd> i would also liek to know this
<JavierDelgado> I also have a Nexus 7 but it does't have HDMI or similar port to output
<doomlord> probably wishful thinking, i suspect all part of the minimal price
<JavierDelgado> Only Audio port, if you need to see what is on the scree, you can install a VNC Server
<JavierDelgado> I have a little query to developers
<petko10> I think some devices can output HDMI via the audio jack and a ... wat's  the word - a cable with audio jack at one end and HDMI at the other
<petko10> *what's
<JavierDelgado> What is the best languaje, I am using Vala with GTK for Ubuntu
<JavierDelgado> But I am feeling so slow
<JavierDelgado> So, what is better for Ubuntu, Qt or GTK?
<petko10> That's the reason there's support for a veriety of languages - so you can have your preference
<petko10> both are supported
<doomlord> i always thought ubuntu was more gtk
<petko10> I like the Qt framework and tools (and I prefer c++ rather than C)
<doomlord> Qt - > KDE
<petko10> well before - maybe , but I haven't had any problems with Qt in Ubuntu
<JavierDelgado> And, as we are in ubuntu-phones jeje
<JavierDelgado> What is the "oficial" languaje for this platform?
<petko10> it's mostly about your preference as I said before (for the desktop - on phones it's Qt ;) )
<petko10> search for "gomobile ubuntu"
<petko10> and you'll get the get started guide
<petko10> it's the Qt framework
<petko10> for native apps
<petko10> and HTML5 for webapps
<JavierDelgado> So Qt with C++ would work under Ubuntu for Phones?
<doomlord> i think it would
<petko10> yes as I've come to know . I haven't actually used it yet
<popey> doomlord: no, the nexus 7 can't do hdmi out
<doomlord> ok
<doomlord> cant have everything i guess
<JavierDelgado> Ok, thank you very much
<popey> the dock doens't do much actually, only usb and power
<JavierDelgado> And the last query jejej
<JavierDelgado> If I develop an terminal application under Qt, Which libraries whould I need to run under Ubuntu Server or Raspberry Pi with Debian?
<JavierDelgado> Do you know it?
<alo21> Hi...I would like to write a app which simulates a torch... and I would like to know if I can simulate the hardware input/output
<doomlord> hah. i have actully used a mobile device as  torch when bulbs blow up
<alo21> doomlord, can you help me?
<doomlord> i dont thinkso specifically. i mean.. i just found myself in the dark, and tapping my ipad screen = light :)
<doomlord> do you know if ubuntu-android would run on the galaxy-note ..
<alo21> doomlord, i am sorry, but I do not know
<alo21> doomlord, but I think it could be
<popey> doomlord: no devices have been announced for UfA
<doomlord> so nexus7 is my best bet i guess
<arij_> doomlord, you can wait
<arij_> then hope some one ports it
<arij_> to a nexus 4 or whatevr u want it on
<popey> doomlord: nexus 7 is best bet for what?
<doomlord> ubuntu gadgetry
<popey> well, you can run ubuntu on a nexus7 now
<hourd> yup
<popey> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Nexus7
<popey> but that is neither Ubuntu for Phones nor Ubuntu for Android
<popey> but just stock Ubuntu desktop
<arij_> thats cool
<hourd> runs reasonably well too
<bzoltan1>  smartboyhw: pong, what can I do for you sir :) ?
<smartboyhw> bzoltan1, the qt5-meta-full package is not working
<Andy80> bzoltan1.Enque(ping); (when you've finished with smartboyhw I've a quesiton too :P )
<bzoltan1> smartboyhw: precise?
<smartboyhw> bzoltan1, raring
<smartboyhw> in the beta one
<bzoltan1> smartboyhw:  let me check the build results.... what package failed on R
<smartboyhw> bzoltan1, https://launchpad.net/~canonical-qt5-edgers/+archive/qt5-beta1/+packages
<bzoltan1> qtwayland it is
<bzoltan1> smartboyhw has left... anyhow I just pushed the wayland for raring, the qtwayland depends on it and qt5-meta wants to pull that too
<bzoltan1> Andy80:  I am all yours :)
<Andy80> bzoltan1, here or private dialog? (no secrets anyway :P )
<bzoltan1> Andy80:  Shoot here
<Andy80> ok
<Andy80> bzoltan1, I found also templates for "Qt Quick 2 UI" app, you can find it here http://qt.gitorious.org/qt-creator/qt-creator/trees/master/share/qtcreator/templates/qml/qtquick2
<Andy80> BUT
<Andy80> in general QtCreator is NOT able to deploy a pure QML app :(
<Andy80> it can deploy a QML and C++ one because internally the code supports deploying on "Generic Linux Device"
<Andy80> but it cannot do the same with pure QML
<Andy80> basically the answer was that since they didn't need it, they didn't implement it
<bzoltan1> Andy80: it should be able to do it with qmlscene
<Andy80> and if you create a "Qt Quick 2 UI" and you try to manually add our "Kit", QtCreator doesn't let you add it
<bzoltan1> Andy80: that is odd
<Andy80> it should, but it doesn't allow you.
<bzoltan1> Andy80: I think you better check with the upstream devs
<Andy80> at this point the path will be harder.... I mean... we have to go to a custom plugin
<Andy80> yeah surely I will do it
<Andy80> but I already asked to people on #qt-creator
<Andy80> maybe I can ask again on the mailing list, but.... it won't be fast as expected
<Andy80> :(
<bzoltan1> Andy80:  let me pull in jppiiroinen who used to work on the N9's application developer. He might have some idea too
<Andy80> bzoltan1, someone just told me "qt quick 2 ui projects are handled by the qmlprojectmanager, which can only handle desktop devices". Infact there is no .pro in pure QML projects...
<bzoltan1> Andy80:  hmmm... odd
<Andy80> bzoltan1, oh... btw this someone is Daniel Teske from Digia, he probably knows enough :\ he's the same who helped me in the mailing list. We must see if it's possible to customize the qmlprojectmanager.... I was going to read the BB10 plugin but they don't use pure QML projects, so I would not find anything that I need
<bzoltan1> Andy80:  So it is only about remotely launch a qml app on a linux device?
<Andy80> bzoltan1, not only.... since qmlprojectmanager doesn't support "Generic Linux Device" it doesn't deploy the application too
<Andy80> but...
<Andy80> if you think about it for a moment it's not something impossible: if cou copy a binary you can copy a .qml too
<Andy80> if you remoteli execute "yourbinary" you can also execute "qmlscene yourapp.qml"
<Andy80> it's just not implemented yet
<Andy80> we probably have to see how these plugins are implemented and write our own
<Andy80> of course it won't be easy like configuring a kit or writing a project wizard template :P but we can do it
<omac777> ubuntu fans want ubuntu desktop common look and feel on their phone.  Tablets and phones have dual-core 64-bit desktop performance so ubuntu unity could be useable although not ideal without a usb keyboard/mouse attached.  What I'm implying is I don't want anyone to redesign common apps that already "just work".  I think most ubuntu fans just want the same stuff running but from their phones and tablets.  Is that too much to a
<Andy80> omac777, it makes no sense, imho :P
<omac777> I also think Android's auto-rotate feature simply off/on, not that convenient.  It would be better to implement rotate screen with 2 multi-touch rotating fingers and the gui snapping every 90 degrees.
<doomlord> i think it makes sense for apps to query if a mouse/keyboard is connected, and change their UI appropriately
<Andy80> omac777, I'm happy with the fact that Ubuntu Phones mockups/preview are different from desktop UI
<doomlord> Some changes are non-destructive - e.g. sometimes making lists more tile-like is just a case of moving the same information around a bit
<Andy80> doomlord, it would be the worst eng ever seen :D
<Andy80> ENV variables are used for this
<Andy80> not a heavy api call that check for a device
<doomlord> why not just query on startup - and have a windowing system message when a new device is connected/disconnected
<doomlord> just like receiving/losing focus
<Andy80> mmm... probably you're talking about a "docking" solution, right? I mean... a different UI if you just use the phone alone or if you plug it in a docking station and use mouse+keyboard+monitor, right?
<omac777> Where is the justification to redesign the entire gui frontend simply for the phone and tablet?  It seems ubuntu has completely thrown out the windowing managers for ubuntu-phone and completely rely on the QT5 QtQuick framework to build apps.  Where are all the underlying interapplication communications we know and love like select/cut/paste between applications within the QtQuick Framework.  Why can't we have 2 applications d
<doomlord> yes
<doomlord> but the same app could check whats going on
<Andy80> omac777, having the same UI on Desktop and Phone makes no sense for me.
<doomlord> phone defnitely needs tweaked UI
<doomlord> fingers vs mouse cursor.
<dmj_nova> Well, I think there's a difference between "same UI" and "common technology"
<doomlord> no "preselection highlight" on fingers
<doomlord> for starters
<Andy80> the backend of the application can be the same
<Andy80> but the UI must be different
<dmj_nova> I would definitely hope one could use say a GTK application on Ubuntu Phone
<omac777> Ok let me ask you a question then.  When Android came out, were you disappointed with the UI and the fact that all the digital freedoms you had on the desktop were not there?  All the way of interacting between the applications were not there?
<dmj_nova> written with the Phone in mind of course
<doomlord> tablets would be unusble with desktop GUI
<doomlord> windows was on tablets for ages and no one used it
<Andy80> omac777, first of all Android was not my first smartphone :P second, I'm happy (I repeat again) with the fact that desktop and phone/tablets have different UI
<Andy80> Deskto UI makes no sense on tablet
<omac777> I know I was disappointed with the Android experience.  When I associate ubuntu and phone together, I imagine ubuntu linux and everything I have experienced with unity or gnome, but on the phone.  I don't expect it to be a completely different way to interact with it or to developer for it.
<Andy80> just like Metro Win8 UI makes no sense on Desktop
<Andy80> (infact I use old Desktop mode when I have to work on it)
<doomlord> desktop, lines of text are ok.. tablet/phone - clickable elements have to be squarer
<doomlord> i think eventually people will find ways of doing things more pleasingly that are ok on both
<Andy80> omac777, you can't expect the same UI when you use just your fingers on a smaller screen
<doomlord> using image like previews... spatial information more often with text within
<doomlord> ZUIs
<dmj_nova> omac777: Are you wanting the exact UI to be the same or are you referring to things like "common toolkits" and "system clipboards"
<omac777> Even with Zoomable UI's, the widgets and the windows representing each application are intact.  Why not have the exact UI on the phone for as long as the ZUI is there.
<dmj_nova> By the way, I do have a frame of reference here for what desktop apps on a smartphone is like.
<doomlord> you cant push with your finger as precisely as with a mouse... you just cant
<Andy80> omac777, I think you're the only one wanting it :P
<dmj_nova> I've got OpenOffice and Chromium installed on my phone
<doomlord> and yet you have other ways of expressing commands i.e. multitouch
<Andy80> dmj_nova, and you can use them? And with "use" I don't mean "being able to start it"
<dmj_nova> In some ways it's better than not having them as an option
<dmj_nova> but one should be aware what they're getting with them
<doomlord> What you'd need for same UI on both is *Pre Selection Highlight*... the phone screen would need to detech when youur finger is close and display  cursor
<omac777> I never said multitouch can't be introduced.  If fact, it would be nice to see some usb multitouch devices appear on the market to make the desktops more phone like touch-wise.
<doomlord> maybe they could do that with a camera...
<doomlord> camera trcking your fingers near the screen :)
<omac777> A mouse and a finger however are identical, drag and drop wise, click-wise, double-click wise.
<Andy80> imho having the same UI on Desktop and Phone is just like pretending to lick your finger to be able to turn a book page on a Kindle :D
<doomlord> no they re not
<doomlord> they are way off
<dmj_nova> doomlord: you can actually use many desktops without pre selection highlight, just it's not ideal
<doomlord> your finger has a large contact patch
<doomlord> pre-selection highlight e.g. cursor chnging to show you what it will do is awesome
<doomlord> oh and you get right click too with  a mouse.. no such thing on a touchscreen
<hourd> touch and hold?
<omac777> touch and hold brings up the right-click behaviour in android.
<dmj_nova> doomlord: on n900 press and hold acted like right click
<doomlord> ergonomically its very different too - dragging with a touchscreen just isn't as pleasant s with a mouse
<doomlord> finger friction
<doomlord> Usually your finger is a blob 2 lines of text wide
<doomlord> it needs completely different UI design
<omac777> I'll agree with the finger friction.  It gets annoying to drag the finger on the screen a lot.
<hourd> touch pens!
<hourd> hurr
<omac777> touch pens.  Honestly I don't have one, but they do look cool.
<doomlord> yeah i've tried this with ipad programming, emulating  mouse cursor for CAD.. its aful
<dmj_nova> If the common technologies used for current desktop apps are present in phone mode (and I would certainly hope they are), anyone could do a crappy port that doesn't change anything except make it accessible in the phone UI.
<hourd> i hate the ones with the rubber tips, but the ones on the galaxy note are great. the 'active' stylus
<doomlord> needing a stylus defeats the immiediacy of a touchscreen
<dmj_nova> Then it's just up to users to decide if they want said "desktop app on a phone"
<hourd> only a little
<omac777> I'm only giving constructive criticisms.  I would love for ubuntu phone to succeed and not just be another android.
<dmj_nova> I like having a stylus on the n900
<doomlord> the only solution i can thinnk of is "kinect" like ability for the phone to predict where your finger is near the screen and display a precise cursor :)
<dmj_nova> I rarely use it day to day, but it's great for mypaint
<doomlord> if thats even possible (how much image procecssing bandwidth?)
<hourd> doomlord: if you are interested in a close version of kinect i suggest you look up leap motion ;)
<doomlord> or people can evolve sharpened fingers
<dmj_nova> now that would make a great default app, mypaint
<hourd> its designed for controlling a computer with your hands without touching it
<Tak> related: https://plus.google.com/112802981015283975416/posts/NAwdyVn6VSf
<doomlord> they've done studies and measured, fingers are officially 2/3rds as efficient as mouse for most tasks
<omac777> The proof of android not being what users want is my wife has a android phone, an android tablet and a laptop at her disposal:  She picks the laptop every time when doing anything.  She won't use the phone unless she's receiving a call.  She finds calling on the laptop most convenient.
<doomlord> they're better at some simple tasks but as soon as you need precision its just not as good
<doomlord> so the UI needs to work harder
<doomlord> more screen transitions
<doomlord> oh there is another possibility... sonys' "Backtouch" on the vita.. but its a bit odd
<doomlord> you could have the "backtouch" controlling a cursor :)
<doomlord> probably a bit awkward though
<omac777> Going back to what I mentioned before, the ubuntu brandname has been made on being a great DESKTOP experience and also providing great server software.  when people heard of ubuntu phone, I will bet many were hopeful to see the great DESKTOP experience on the phone, but with some added-value touch capability and that's it.  As a developer, losing access to the known ubuntu desktop apis is highly constraining.
<omac777> And I'm not a fan of QML and javascript either.
<doomlord> you just cannot have the desktop experience without... a desktop. Clue is in the name.
<doomlord> keyboard and multi-button pointer
<omac777> Qt's ok, as long as it resides within a window being managed by your favourite flavor of window manager.
<omac777> To discover that all disappearing overnight on ubuntu-phone is disappointing.
<doomlord> its not dissapearing , because the desktop remains unchanged
<doomlord> and there is "ubuntu-for-Android" wihch is just the desktop ported across
<doomlord> if you want the desktop experience perhaps you want a device like the Galaxy Note with a stylus
<omac777> ubuntu for android is not an option.  It's too slow because of the two co-existing operating systems running at the same time.
<omac777> The unity interface from within "ubuntu for android" takes forever to load up when compared to the seconds it takes to load up ubuntu on a desktop.
<doomlord> Hve you tried using a desktop on a touchscreen
<doomlord> find one of those  "windows 7" atom tablets from about 2 years ago...
<doomlord> and its not just  touchscreen on the phone... its a SMALL touchscreen. the physical size makes a big difference
<omac777> Yes, but you need to be patient with the onboard keyboard.  Typing from a screen board sucks because there is not easy reference points on the screen to touch to place your fingers properly.
<doomlord> basically you can only touch the screen with a grid precision of about 8x16
<doomlord> 8x12 . i dont know... its very low
<doomlord> Also a desktop assumes 2-handed operation is availble .. precision of mouse plus speed of hotkeys
<omac777> the Netbooks that your are referring too had awfully small keyboards which wouldn't work with my stubby fingers.
<doomlord> i dont mean netbooks
<doomlord> i mean the windows7 tablets eg Acer W500 i think it was called
<doomlord> acer or asus? there was an atom tablet before win8
<doomlord> Acer Iconia Tab W500
<doomlord> take a look at that to see how desktop turns out with a touchscreen... its terrible
<omac777> ok, what is the point with the keyboard on the touchscreen.  All the sensitivities of these screens are similar aren't they?
<doomlord> the point is .. its just terrible.  you cannot type fast on a touchscreen. end of story.
<doomlord> keyboards are for typing.
<optimus55> Hey i followed all the instructions here http://developer.ubuntu.com/get-started/gomobile/#step-get-toolkit to install QT5 and the ubuntu QML toolkit preview but QT creator still says import QtQtuick 2.0 and Ubuntu.Components 0.1 are missing. Any ideas???
<omac777> I completely agree about not being able to type quickly on a touch screen.
<optimus55> when i apt-get install qt-components-ubuntu again it says 0 upgraded, installed, etc
<doomlord> and you have no left/right click either...
<doomlord> and your selection precision is about 8x12 , not 1280x800
<doomlord> its chalk and cheese
<omac777> But simply because it's a tablet/phone, doesn't not imply that I don't want to type though.  I just need to be patient.  The other thing is these devices need to have the ability to connect the keyboard when speed typing is critical.
<doomlord> well the phone UI's still have typing
<doomlord> but you just can't use desktop windows & menus on a phone screen. Have you ever tried it? its terrible.
<doomlord> its been done - and its just laughable
<optimus55> does anyone have an idea how to fix the missing Ubuntu.Components 0.1 issue in the QML toolkit guide?
<doomlord> there's a famous video of steve balmer trying to explain you could do it and showing publicly how bad it ws
<doomlord> before windows 8 was in development
<omac777> the phone ui's got typing, but none of the DESKTOP window management api, nor the same repository as the desktop from which to update from.  I truly believe this to be less than ideal.  If there were arm desktops, tablets and phones, I honestly believe they should be updated from the same repository and let the software adapt to the device profile, but without sacrificing the entire DESKTOP/SERVER devloper libs already in the 
<dmj_nova> doomlord: omac777: Having access to a desktop app on a phone screen is a bit better than not being able to perform said task at all, but apps should build a custom phone UI if possible.
<doomlord> i think in time people will just make more phone-like UI's .. it'll be a fassion that becomes more prevalent especially now that mainstream OS's are touch
<omac777> Although less probable, I still think any arm device can be a server and can behave like my desktop providing all the repos .debs are available as is the case for ubuntu for android.(armel .debs).
<doomlord> (mainstream consumer OS's and hence mainstream consumer hardware
<doomlord> since windows 8 was released we're getting hybrid touch-laptops
<popey> optimus55: poke bzoltan1
<dmj_nova> For instance I'd rather use open office on a smartphone for 5 minutes than email a person telling them to convert the file to PDF and send it back to me, then wait while they do that, then open it, compose an email saying to make specific changes on pages 4 and 7 and then send it back to me.
<omac777> The only request I'm making is that the arm repo be just one for arm-based desktop, tablet and phone.  The other request is the ubuntu flavor for arm devices ship with a tool to easily flash over the arm devices to completely take over the device.
<omac777> Also it would be nice for ubuntu to install grub or other bootloader menu tool on the phone and tablet as they do on the desktop.  That way if we want to boot up android for those rare occasions, we can.
<hourd> multirom already exists for android, and can be used to boot the ubuntu for nexus 7
<omac777> Dare I say, there will be others dreaming to put windows phone on the bootloader menu on the arm device too, but I'm not one of them.
<dmj_nova> omac777: As long as the underlying components are there and usable in phone mode, I'm sure there's a way to hack desktop style apps into the phone
<omac777> hourd, is the nexus 7 image already out?
<hourd> omac777: its not ubuntu phone its just ubuntu desktop
<omac777> JUST ubuntu desktop.  That's all I want!  I just want UBUNTU desktop on the ARM device :)
<omac777> Is it 12.10 or some other older flavor?
<hourd> 13.04
<omac777> Pardon my ignorance, but where can I get it?
<hourd> omac777: http://i.imgur.com/eqyUiYv.jpg
<hourd> omac777: i used https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Nexus7/
<omac777> I don't have a nexus 7 yet, but that's exactly what I would love to see on the Advent Vega.  How hard would it be to see it recompiled for another ARM device?
<hourd> no idea, it seems to have alot of specific support for the nexus 7
<omac777> hourd:  Did you reinstall android after that?
<omac777> Are you happy with the ubuntu on 13.04?
<omac777> on the nexus 7?
<hourd> didnt need to re-install android, runs alongside using multirom
<hourd> i have android 4.2.1 on it as well
<omac777> hourd: now that you have ubuntu on the nexus 7, do you prefer to use it over android?
<hourd> depends what im doing
<hourd> android is much more convenient for calls, web browsing etc... but i have done some development on the ubuntu and its better than android for that
<hourd> especialy with an external keyboard
<omac777> There you go, that's what I wanted to hear, you need the external keyboard.  No problem with that.  So what you have is an awesome ARM desktop running ubuntu :)
<hourd> it has an onboard keyboard which appears when its needed and moves out of your way when moving windows
<omac777> hourd:   Do you get file access errors on your arm device when running at the terminal?  It doesn't suffer from the same issues as running android root terminals right?
<hourd> not at all
<hourd> you have to patch the kernel for loopback to get it to work
<omac777> hourd:  Thanks for sharing.
<hourd> no problem
<hourd> omac777: theres lots of videos on youtube of it working
<Corasaaa> Hi
<sergey_> Hello! I look https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuPhone/CoreApps and not found media player. why?
<mhall119> sergiusens: media player was already started for the CES demo
<sergiusens> mhall119: wrong person, but I can confirm that :-)
<mhall119> tab-complete fail
<krovatti> hi. is anybody here?
<Loofy> Yea, I'm here. First time though. :) browsing throught the CoreApps atm.
<Loofy> I like this project, but I am currently trying to figure out how to get involved. :)
<krovatti> are you ubuntu dev? :)
<krovatti> i have some questions but i don't know where i can to get an answer
<krovatti> oh. sorry. i'm a blind :D
<Loofy> I am certenly not.
<krovatti> i watching for it too :)
<Loofy> No problems. :)
<krovatti> what you want to create, by the way
<Loofy> Well not sure atm.
<Loofy> Perhaps I would like to start with some simple.
<Loofy> A clock, alarm how hard could it be? :P
<krovatti> i want to create a clock and alarm :P
<krovatti> not hard at all if you know qml
<krovatti> :)
<Loofy> Ok.
<Loofy> Well I don't know anything about the SDK and how to actually develop anything yet. What is needed to start?
<krovatti> have you any expirence with qml? :)
<krovatti> http://developer.ubuntu.com/get-started/gomobile/ here's how
<Loofy> I haven't done anything serious in qml.
<Loofy> thnx for that link.
<krovatti> in short, you need to install qt creator, qt5 and qml toolkit then you need to change settings in qt creator (optional) and you're ready to start
<krovatti> you need to go deeper in this link i gave. there is much useful information (ubuntu api, how to create first app and what's next)
<krovatti> anyway, i'm away. good googling and programming :)
<Loofy> Yeap... Gonna watch some telly now... But I will keep idling in the channel.
<Loofy> afk.
<Robbilie> do you think this could be getting close to the unity launcher on ubu phone? : http://jsfiddle.net/Robbilie/7CbDn/24/show/ just some work i did :D
<Rougeth> Nice Robbilie, what did you use to do it?
<Robbilie> hum? this is pure html and css and just a little js :D
<Rougeth> But what lib?
<Robbilie> nooooone :D
<Robbilie> i really enjoy having the smallest websites possible and therefore i cant afford jquery or such :D and selectors and such are possible with 2 lines of code so why use a lib? i want to extend the launcher a bit, might add better paging and maybe its gonna be a b2g launcher with the look of unity :D
<CPCookieMan> Hello there
<Robbilie> heyho
<CPCookieMan> What's going on guys?
<hourd> not alot
<krovatti> 95 users and now one ubuntu dev, wtf?
<krovatti> :(
<Loofy> Hi (again)
<Loofy> I have followed the currency converter tutorial now, to get the hang of qml stuff.
<krovatti> hi, nice to see you
<Loofy> pretty straight forward - but I need to dig into the reference to learn about all the properties available.
<krovatti> let's go deeper
<krovatti> ;)
<Loofy> :)
<hourd> what if you can't get back out?
<Loofy> hehe
<krovatti> hourd, what you mean?
<hourd> inception
<hourd> krovatti: it's a film
<krovatti> hourd: thanks, i know :D
<krovatti> )
<hourd> hehe
<Loofy> Hmm, browsing around on the coreapps of UbuntuPhone... Well. It is a "Phone", but none of the listed is aimed to get the piece to call somebody ?
<Loofy> To me that would also count in as one of the core functions of a Phone. :)
<krovatti> Loofy: i think there's non public app because GSM technology is private thing for a big company
<krovatti> *companies
<krovatti> that's the reason
<Loofy> yeap probably there is.
<Loofy> But I was thinking contacts etc...
<krovatti> So, I think it'll be soon, maybe :)
<Loofy> yeap
<vsrmis> Hello all. I am student,novice developer. I am loving Linux, and I look forward to Ubuntu on mobile devices. I want to help this project, how can I do it? Could you explain me system of developing products fot Ubuntu for Phones? What tasks can I perform?
<vsrmis> I Can write on Python,C++,Java. I am using Qt and love it to.
<popey> vsrmis: see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuPhone/CoreApps
<arazbakov> hi all
<arazbakov> hi
<arazbakov> who is here?
<Loofy> I am :D
<arazbakov> do u know smb who develops ubuntu phone?
<Loofy> Well I am trying to learning it my self.
<popey> smb?
<arazbakov> smb = somebody
<Loofy> I arrived to this channel for the first time today.
<arazbakov> so am I
<Loofy> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuPhone/CoreApps
<arazbakov> what is the lang for programming?
<Loofy> http://developer.ubuntu.com/get-started/gomobile/
<Loofy> those two are good starters.
<popey> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuPhone#Ubuntu_Phone_FAQ
<arazbakov> is it true that os is too slow?
<popey> too slow for what?
<arazbakov> for sliding screens for example
<popey> nope
<popey> its under active development anyway, so any stuttering or slowness seen in any videos from a couple of weeks back are likely to be gone now
<arazbakov> how dev proccess is managed?
<popey> at the moment it's developed internally at Canonical
<popey> soon the source (and binary images) will be made available
<arazbakov> thx
<krovatti> popey: are you a dev at Ubuntu?
<popey> krovatti: I work at Canonical with a bunch of clever people, yes.
<lars__> how are you$
<lars__> wtf
<wfire> I know this is all Ubuntu, but do you know if the qt-components will be available for windows at any point in time
<popey> lars__: I think I speak for us all when I say "Fine thanks"
<wfire> I agree, I am fine
<krovatti> popey: arrrrrgh, at Canonical of course. I have some questions about development
<krovatti> wfire: looking there's no chance for it
<wfire> ok
<wfire> I will have to run ubuntu in a virtual then I guess
<wfire> I love QML and was so excited to learn today that the Ubuntu phone is using it
<wfire> back to QtCreator
<wfire> loving it
<krovatti> popey: for example, I have am experience with Qt/qml and I want to help Canonical to develop, Alarm Clock, for example. Where I need to send the result, when... There's no helpful information I found at gomobile section :(
<popey> krovatti: see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuPhone/CoreApps
<krovatti> wfire: why not setup Ubuntu in original way?
<popey> mhall119 can help you
<wfire> I am not comfortable with ubuntu for it to be my main
<wfire> not a fan of dual either
<wfire> but QML is a passion for me
<wfire> krovatti, here is how to get published
<wfire> http://developer.ubuntu.com/publish/
<krovatti> wfire: there's a way to use it as a second system as i did
<wfire> hmm I will look into it
<wfire> well I have to step away for a bit
<wfire> is it ok to idle here?
<popey> sure
<wfire> ok cool
<krovatti1> popey: yes, i saw it. i mean i didn't found really helpful info. for e.g. as i said, how i can interact with other developers and what if some developers (not one) wants to develop an app. There's many questions confusing me
<krovatti1> wfire: what are you develop? btw, i like qml too because it's too easy and too powerful
<popey> krovatti1: this is the best place to come, but it's quite early on in the project, so we may not have all the answers you need, but can try to find them
<Loofy> krovatti1, I think the collaboration will be going on using Launchpad and bazaar?
<mhall119> popey: what can I help with?
<krovatti1> Loofy: hmm, that's interesting but i haven't experience with Launchpad. what is it?
<Loofy> I guess at this stage everything isn't set up yet.. for instance: https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-clock-dev
<mhall119> boiler-plate code should be available for each of the projects tomorrow or monday
<Loofy> krovatti1, Launchpad is like a "bugzilla" for ubuntu project.
<mhall119> more than bugzilla
<Loofy> ofcourse
<Loofy> but just as a "starter" hehe
<mhall119> it's like bugzilla + github + (there's no real equivilent to PPAs)
<krovatti1> bazaar looks like svn at a glance
<mhall119> bzr is more like git and mercurial
<krovatti1> that's good i like git
<Loofy> And as you can see. in the project for the clock - there are no members assigned to that project yet.
<mhall119> Loofy: not yet, the teams are still being set up
<Loofy> oki
<Loofy> yes so I assumed.
<mhall119> we kicked off the call for designs because it didn't need to be blocked on boiler plate code or development teams
<krovatti1> Loofy: can everyone connect to this project, for e.g? or what?
<mhall119> so we can start getting design ideas while we finish getting the rest together
<Loofy> Well I am not that knowledgeable yet. I am quite novice my self.
<mhall119> once there is code, anybody will be able to branch it, and submit patches
<mhall119> members of the dev team will be responsible for reviewing merge proposals and getting them into trunk
<krovatti1> popey: i think you're absolutely right. I've just seen a topic which says that Canonical watching for volunteers in our Russian community called Habrahabr and I was thinking that is too late to help, honestly. that's the reason why i'm here killing you with my silly questions :)
<Loofy> Did we mension earlier that Launchpad also could be used for Localizations?
<Loofy> Will that part be the same for phoneapps?
<krovatti1> mhall119: and what we need to join the team?
<krovatti1> mhall119: one more question. are you planning to create a good guidelines (for code quality for the collaboration) and design guidelines (for UX) in the future?
<krovatti1> Loofy: are you good at design? )
<Loofy> Nope..
<Loofy> that isn't my skillset.
<Loofy> i like to do the codebehinds hehe.
<krovatti1> me too
<krovatti1> so i've got an idea about design but i'm not good at design at all :(
<Loofy> I think it is good to have the mockup stuff that are available... That way people can gather their suggestions and make the best fit.
<Loofy> for instance this: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuPhone/CoreApps/FileManager
<Loofy> at the bottom people has sent in some suggestions.
<mhall119> krovatti1: you don't need to join the team to contribute, no
<mhall119> Loofy: Launchpad will be used for translations, yes
<Loofy> Oki great.
<krovatti1> that's good
<Loofy> I wonder what is the most suitable datastorage for an alarm clock? Would it be a simple xml file maybe? or is there other recommended ways for this built in?
<krovatti1> mhall119: so, what about controversial situations. Will one language translations controlled by the authority in Ubuntu community?
<krovatti1> Loofy: what about json?
<krovatti1> that is more likely I think
<Loofy> Yes that to... I was thinkning if there was something more database-like that was maybe a recommended way?
<krovatti1> i think not
<Loofy> I think in Ubuntu there is something called couchdb
<krovatti1> maybe
<Loofy> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CouchDB
<popey> U1DB
<Loofy> ahh
<Loofy> thanks
<Loofy> and it is part of Ubuntu One...
<Loofy> that was one of my ideas.. what if we could find a way that you could optionally synchronize alarms across one-connected devices.
<krovatti1> Loofy: "U1DB is a database API for synchronised databases of JSON documents", so i was right :)
<Loofy> Yeap
<krovatti1> Loofy: i'll setup this alarm clock at my laptop, hah :D )
<Peiber> Hi guys, I'm new to IRC and pretty new to coding, I really want to get involved in this project, how can I help?
<Loofy> Haha
<krovatti1> Peiber: are you good at design?
<Loofy> Haha
<krovatti1> Loofy: all's good? )
<Peiber> Like graphically?  I'm not very artistic
<Peiber> Unfortunately as i said I'm fairly new to coding and i have learned a bit of java but anything i can do to help would be great
<krovatti1> Peiber: so, if you want to code smth look for it - http://developer.ubuntu.com/get-started/gomobile/
<Loofy> Yeap I think all help will be needed.
<krovatti1> Peiber: that's to easy to start with qml
<Peiber> what coding language do i need to learn?
<krovatti1> qml
<Loofy> U1DB seams to have a SQLite back end database.
<Loofy> http://packages.python.org/u1db/high-level-api.html#high-level-api
<krovatti1> Peiber: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/QML
<krovatti1> Loofy: yes i saw this page
<Peiber> thanks, I'll get started
<krovatti1> sorry, looks like i'm scared him
<Loofy> hehe
<krovatti1> :D
<Loofy> or he went in to focus-mode.
<krovatti1> maybe
<Rasmus_> Jumping in as you talk about database backends. I think that sqlite should at least be avalible for apps to use.
<Loofy> Oki
<krovatti1> Rasmus_: i think there's will be a way to use it from qml with c++ extension as well as many libraries we're using nowadays
<Rasmus_> ok
<Rasmus_> I don't know what librarys that will be shiped, just reacted becouse you only mentioned CouchDB
<Rasmus_> Sqllite is very popular and a lot of people is familar with it.
<krovatti1> mhall119: popey: can will i offer a new application: that's application was written for nokia n9 and wasn't published in ovi store yet, and i can port it very fast because there's just small difference in qml
<Loofy> Well time to sleep for me...
<Loofy> afk
<krovatti1> so, can everyone offer app or game to ubuntu phone community in other words to be in phone out of the box
<krovatti1> yes, i think there's a good time
<krovatti1> good night
<krovatti1> mhall119: Popey: if you have an answer, please write me - michaeldavydenko[at]outlook[point]com
#ubuntu-phone 2013-01-25
<histo> Are we going to be able to install ubuntu on our current devices like a Galaxy S3?
<xsacha_> on that question, would i be able to install it on a nokia n9?
<histo> xsacha_: http://askubuntu.com/questions/243203/ubuntu-phone-for-nokia-n9
<sebsebseb> hi
<xsacha_> histo: hmm didn't really answer my question. is it the last comment that it is more targeted towards high-end phones?
<surgemcgee> Shot in the dark here, do I have to declare namespaces for xml files which do not have them?
<freethinker> how does one go about install the ubuntu phone sdk on archlinux?
<freethinker> installing*
<mhall119> freethinker: um, I suppose you can download and extract all the .debs
<freethinker> mhall119, compilation from source would be more elegant,  trying to figure out how to add it to AUR
<mhall119> freethinker: grab the source debs then
<histo> freethinker: you can extract from debs
<raven_> hi
<raven_> will ubuntu phone be developed for asus padphone 2?
<raven_> if not - any way to make a request for it?
<doomlord> i'm very pleased it just happens to be on the phone I have
<doomlord> my next phone purchase decision will be driven by ubuntu-phone support
<xsacha> doomlord: my next purchase will be driven by whether the bootloader is unlocked. sort of the same thing
<raven_> any way to make a request for ubuntu on asus padphone 2?
<hourd> i think the idea is that it will eventually work on any phone that conforms to the android specification
<hourd> s/phone/device/
<raven_> hourd, would be nice but a device that not at least supports mass storage access seems to be very closed......
<hourd> ? like usb storage?
<raven_> yes
<raven_> it supports only mtp and ptp
<hourd> you can with the otg adapters no?
<raven_> whats this?
<hourd> microusb -> usb female
<hourd> i use it to plug a hdd into my nexus7
<hourd> or a keyboard/mouse
<raven_> i need mass storage access from my ubuntu notebook
<hourd> notebook? then surely it has it?
<raven_> ???
<raven_> the padphone does not support simply mass storage
<hourd> oh....
<raven_> only mtp and ptp
<hourd> right use the phone as mass storage
<hourd> i misundestood
<raven_> hourd, it has NO OPTION to provide it as mass storage
<hourd> is this ubuntu phone in general or a phone you currently own?
<raven_> i want my padphone 2 running android 4.1 be available as mass storage device via my ubuntu notebook
<hourd> oh ok. I dont see how that relates to ubuntu phone
<raven_> i only wanted to say, because it does not support mass storage access by default it obviously is not wanted to be open by asus
<cooperyuan> is ubuntu-phone available for download
<hourd> maybe but seems odd as the nexus7 is asus and thats pretty damn open
<cooperyuan> I mean source code
<hourd> cooperyuan: not yet. check topic
<raven_> how to make a ubuntu request for padphone?
<cooperyuan> cool, Feb'13
<cooperyuan> thanks
<hourd> raven_: i don't think you can
<raven_> why?
<hourd> raven_: and why would it be an ubuntu request?
<hourd> to do what?
<popey> raven_: we're not taking requests at the moment
<doomlord> he want ubuntu ported to padphone
<doomlord> offer bounty
<doomlord> thats one of the compromises with FOSS..  so much hardware variety, you can't expect it will all be supported
<popey> well, we're expecting the community to help in that regard
<hourd> isn't that why its conforming the the android hardware spec so that its easier to support the individual devices
<doomlord> i gaather android is very fragmented though .. its like PC's all over again, many permutations
<doomlord> difficult to test :)
<doomlord> i'd be curious to know if ubuntu (phone/android) can acess the pressure sensitive pen on the Galaxy Note devices
<doomlord> i'd like to get one of those.. but would hesitate if ubuntu can't exploit it
<doomlord> it would make a lot more sense of the ability to run a desktop on it i think (more so the 10' tablet)
<elpapo> Hi, Do you think the SAR (radiation Value) will be changed if installing Ubuntu on Samsung Galaxy Nexus? (http://www.ubuntu.com/devices/phone)
<elpapo> Just a thought...
<krovatti> elpapo: independently i think
<elpapo> krovatti, Ok, thx for answer.
<Jester86> Hey all, I have an old smart phone.. original droid.
<Jester86> I've been considering upgrading but will lose my unlimited data and what not.
<smartboyhw> Jester86, wow
<Jester86> That in mind, I'd be willing to consider leaving verizon for a cheaper plan if possible.  Do any of you think any vendor will be more likely to adopt Ubuntu Phone.
<hourd> Jester86: just buy one outright and keep your dataplan
<hourd> thats what i did
<Jester86> yes.. smartboyhw.. i've been running aftermarket roms on it for a while so it hasn't been bad but with the more recent CG milestone rom its just been dog slow.
<Jester86> hourd.. I would be the issue is that I'm still on the family plan from when i was in college/high school.  I'm afraid eventually one of my family members will do an upgrade and screw the pooch.
<Jester86> we all pitch in on the bill but I'm sure its only a matter of time until one of them jacks it up.
<Jester86> I use my phone to stream music all day ever day.. and use it for navigation for 30+ minutes at least once a week on average.
<Jester86> I'm not sure what sort of data that comes out to per month but I'm sure I'm over 2 gigs
<Jester86> probably over 4
<Jester86> with verizon's new plans there is a $60 fee just for having the basic service in addition to your data plan.. my bill would easily go up quite a bit from where I am today.
<krovatti> popey, so what's about my question about integrating brand new apps or games into Ubuntu Phone. can everyone offer it and will it be available "out of the box". I know there's no official answer this time.  just your thoughts as a developer at Canonical
<krovatti> Loofy, hi ) what's up?
<popey> hello krovatti
<popey> krovatti: not sure I understand your question
<krovatti> popey: ok, i'll rewrite it
<krovatti> popey: i mean next situation. imagine. i'm a developer and i wrote a cool app (or game). can i offer it to the community and then will this app (or game) distribute with Ubuntu Phone?
<krovatti> popey: is this clear?
<popey> you mean, shipping out of the box?
<krovatti> popey: yes
<popey> krovatti: we're already looking at a set of core apps. maybe you saw jono's blog post about it?
<popey> http://www.jonobacon.org/2013/01/23/community-driven-ubuntu-phone-core-apps/
<krovatti> popey: i know about searching for a CORE APPS (such as timer, alarm clock). i mean non core apps (such as translator for e.g. or brick breaker game). and yes, i'll contribute some code and ideas to core apps
<blackout23> I'd belive that any 3rd party app will simply be available for download through the ported Software Center on the phone
<blackout23> imagine there are 5000 apps at some point they won't come preinstalled when they leave the factory of course
<blackout23> Every smartphone only ships with the core applications.
<krovatti> blackout23: yes, they will be. but i told about apps distributing in system by default ("out of the box", but not core apps) :)
<krovatti> blackout23: let me don't agree with you. in some regions, some oem's distribute own apps or games with core apps
<blackout23> I don't understand what you mean to be honest
<blackout23> yes that's up the the oem
<blackout23> Canonical has its core apps. OEM adds maybe 4 of their own that's it.
<blackout23> Some might ship vanila Ubuntu Phone kind of like the Nexus with vanilla Android
<blackout23> anything else is just a community contribution and will not be preinstalled
<krovatti> blackout23: f***. go back to the previous messages and try to figure out :)
<krovatti> blackout23: oh, thanks
<krovatti> blackout23: are you a dev at Canonical?
<blackout23> nope but I'd be very surprised if it won't be like I just explained. Anything else just doesn't make any sense.
<krovatti> blackout23: maybe you're right
<blackout23> This how everyone in the industry handles it. Some carriers in the US deliver customized phones to their customers to include their own set of Apps. Some OEM like HTC and Samsung have their own Android spinoff. If you want Android without anything you need to buy a Nexus device.
<blackout23> In Europe network carrier apps are not that common. Phone are generaly unlocked and unbranded. Only if you let's say a Galaxy S3 you'll find some Samsung Apps that are not part of the original Android that comes from Google.
<blackout23> + buy
<doomlord> is it likely aanyone will SHIP ubuntu phones?
<blackout23> That's canonicals goal to have handset manufacturs making Ubuntu Phones that you can buy in stores or with your new phone contract.
<popey> doomlord: yes
<blackout23> popey: but there is no offical OEM that will make Ubuntu Phones I guess at this point?
<doomlord> well i do home this crystalizes. it wouuld be awesome
<xsacha> is dell interested?
<popey> we have nothing to announce yet.
<blackout23> I think it is intersting to see that even Samsung doesn't want to be married to Android even though their Galaxy Smartphones with Android are very successful
<blackout23> otherwise they wouldn't be Tizen
<doomlord> tizen=?
<popey> A mobile phone OS âº
<popey> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tizen
<moocow1452> Knock knock?
<blackout23> Who is there?
<moocow1452> Me, Moocow, it says so on the left side of the screen, right?
<blackout23> ;-)
<blackout23> brb
<moocow1452> Wondering the possiblity at this point of having something like Tasker available for Ubuntu Phone. Would a straight port be possible if the developer is willing to put in the time, and/or could a port be feasibly made?
<moocow1452> blackout, you got my last message about the possiblity of something like Tasker or Tasker itself on the Ubuntu Phone?
<moocow1452> Do we know anything about how apps would be run or ported at this point, or is it mostly guess work?
<blackout23> I'm not familiar with the program called Tasker
<Wiz007> can I install ubuntu in Xperia u?
<blackout23> The developer would have to do a port with C/C++ and QML  as far as I know
<blackout23> Wiz007 if someone builds an image for your phone than yes
<blackout23> the first image that will be availabe will be for Samsung Galaxy Nexus
<blackout23> The community would have to do a port for your phone just like there are ports of Android ROMs for different devices
<Wiz007> I dont think ubuntu will work fine in xperia as it has only 512mb ram
<Wiz007> even if the image is released
<blackout23> 512 MB seems to be the minimum requirement for low end phones with Ubuntu OS.
<surgemcgee> Is there a way to change the Button sizes in the Ubuntu components?
<doomlord> can you display the regular desktop on ubuntu phone on the phone (however unusuable it might be)
<doomlord> kind of like win8's "desktop-is-an-app" perhaps
<blackout23> I don't think there is such a feature right now. And it would be rather hard. The 1280x720 resolution of the Galaxy Nexus might be comparable to a desktop resolution
<blackout23> but on a 4.7 inch display window controls would be tiny
<blackout23> I could only think of an option where you zoom and pan the Desktop like you do with a Website on a mobile browser
<blackout23> But I'm rather sure that this isn't a top priority of canonical at this time to include such a feature
<blackout23> It would be kind of cool I have to agree but more from a geeky point of view
<doomlord> i presume the phone will get a terminal app :)
<Joe_B> Terminal is one of the core apps, see here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuPhone/CoreApps/Design
<xsacha> i sure hope it is as good as the nokia n9 terminal :D
<blackout23> I did some of the mockup work you can see on the balsamiq site
<blackout23> I don't know about the n9 terminal but I think my idea might be the best possible touch terminal
<blackout23> You don't need extra keys. You hardly have to type anything, because the way autocompletion is done.  etc.
<xsacha> yeah the n9 one is seriously the best one i've ever used. it felt really nice
<xsacha> and n9 has no buttons
<xsacha> irssi was really nice in it
<blackout23> I'll see if I can find a video.
<blackout23> but n9 has a slide out physical keyboard if i remember correct?
<popey> no
<popey> n950 does
<Joe_B> blackout23, I just left a comment there actually.
<Joe_B> I was wondering how you would scroll up if scroll was dedicated to cycling through previous commands.
<Joe_B> I thought maybe use the volume rocker to scroll through commands and swipe up/down to scroll through previous output?
<xsacha> http://vesuri.jormas.com/n9apps/n9-irssi.png
<blackout23> Joe_B I replied
<blackout23> xsacha so for ctrl + shift + v for pasting text from clipboard into terminal you have to get 3 fingers on the touchkeyboard?
<Joe_B> Ideally we can cover completion, cycling through previous commands, jump to end of line & beginning of line and scrolling.  I'd also add jump by word (though tapping on the location you want the cursor seems ok).  Anything else?
<ninjaaron> Are the default coreutils on the phone going to be GNU, busybox, or something else?
<mhall119> ninjaaron: unknown at this point
<dmj_nova> I would hope they're identical to the desktop ones
<ninjaaron> dmj_nova: That would be ideal, but something like busybox might provide better performance, being designed for embedded devices.
<ninjaaron> The wiki page about the terminal app says something about 'integration with busybox commands,' which lead me to believe that busybox might be used on the phone instead of GNU.
<ninjaaron> Interesting. sh on ubuntu is dash (I would have expected bash), so I guess the busybox shell (ash) should already run... though looking now, some of them have bash in the shebang, but the syntax is POSIX, as far as I can tell. Eh... whatever. I'm sure someone has already thought of all this.
<ninjaaron> "some of them" = "some of the init scripts"
<Hashcode> Anyone know what kernel they've been using for the GNex running UbuntuPhone?
<gdane> Hello
<gdane> i have a comunicator based on intel xscale pxa270, does Canonical have some ubuntu phone project for such processor?
<gdane> what faqs or info i have to read first to make ubuntu for such comunicator?
<gdane> may be some manualk or something
<gdane> manual
<MrMorf> hi 2 all
<MrMorf>  people i have a one question about ubuntu phone.
<MrMorf>  Can i buy phone on android, and in the future change andriod os for ubuntu?
<oh7fdn> yep
<k1l> gdane: you saw the hardware specs mentioned on the http://www.ubuntu.com/devices/phone/operators-and-oems site ?
<MrMorf> oh7fdn, thx
<k1l> MrMorf: see the hardware recommendations and make sure  your device got a open bootloader
<gdane> k1l, thx, i didnt see this page before
<oh7fdn> galaxy nexus should work fine...
<gdane> hmm cortex a9 - is it a armv5 or armv7?
<Hashcode> v7
<gdane> ohh then pxa more older proc
<k1l> gdane: what i saw that device you mentioned looks too old/slow
<gdane> i have htc x7510
<gdane> athena
<gdane> so ill wait my rasperri py then
<gdane> it have to be delivered soon
<gdane> right now i have debian rootfs + xfce on htc x7510
<gdane> but comunicator stacks then i try to mek apt-get update
<gdane> *make
<k1l> gdane: that raspberry pi is not a ubuntu-phone hardware. you better want to look into #ubuntu-arm for that (but there is no ubuntu port for raspberry pi )
<gdane> shell without x11 works fine
<Hashcode> Does the GNex demo run on the current Android 3.0 kernel?  Or does Ubuntu Phone need alterations?
<MrMorf> k1l: unfortunately, i had a lot of money and whant buy phone like as Prestigio PAP4040 DUO,  ZTE V880E.  How u think can i install ubuntu on this phone. I'm not very good at flashing phones, this would love to hear your opinion. Is it worth? 'm Afraid not wait to release their ancient phone handsets with preinstalled OS.
<doomlord> whats the expected support roadmap for ubuntu phone. (i.e which phones is it likely to run on)
<k1l> MrMorf: if you want to be safe get a galaxy nexus. since that is the dev-phone it will support ubuntu-phone. what devices will recieve support is not mentioned, yet
<Hashcode> I would imagine some of that will depend on manufacturers and community devs putting it on existing devices.
<k1l> doomlord: see that hardware minimum specs as posted above. and like i just told its not mentioned so far which devices will recieve support
<Hashcode> I have so many technical questions about the GNex implementation (I support 5 OMAP4 phones for Android).  Feb 13th is far far away. :/
<k1l> Hashcode: just ask them here an be patient. its not a very living channel but most phone-team guys idle in here and take a peek from time to time.
<Hashcode> AH, wasn't sure any of the phone-team actually stopped by
<gdane> Does Canonical plan to work with older comunicators?
<k1l> gdane: honestly
<k1l> , i would stick to the recommendations mentioned on that page, so far
<gdane> ok, ill do when ill plane to buy new comunicator
<gdane> bur right now i dont need new one
<gdane> i work with stuff i have already
<Hashcode> Dev Question: OMAP Android uses OMX-IL layer for HD codec/camera support.  Standard Ubuntu for devices like PandaBoard don't use OMX layer.  They use Gstreamer, etc.  Which will Ubuntu Phone use?
<MrMorf> k1l, tnx for answer. I see on website, that different untill "Entry level Ubuntu smartphone" and "High-end Ubuntu "superphone"" only in desktop convergence? If i had PC with Windows, i think that i don't need high-end b coz, on my pc don't install unbuntu (only in virtual box). How u think, on this basis, what better buy: phone with  Cortex A9  or  Quad-core A9 or Intel Atom?
<MrMorf> that is, I mean, I would buy high-end? in addition to performance.
<k1l> MrMorf: i understand it that way, that you need the more power for a fluid desktop experience when docking the phone in and use it as a desktop with mouse and keyboard and monitor.
<k1l> MrMorf: at this stage there is not much information on how good the real OS is running on which hardware. the whole OS is not really done right now. so i would wait for the code and images to show at the end of february
<k1l> phones with ubuntu-phone are expected not before end of 2013 more like 2014.
<MrMorf> k1l: I'm beginning to understand you better. But not sure that we understand each other correctly.I want to buy a new phone, but in the future to install ubuntu on it. But if I installed Windows. That is, whether it makes sense to take the more expensive phone with an "Quad-core A9 or Intel Atom" when in fact, I will not use the Desktop convergence?
<MrMorf> windows on my PC*
<k1l> MrMorf: you are not forced to use the desktop mode on that phone :) but since its hardware and this is still an early developing stage i would stick to the developing phone (galaxy nexus) or go with a similar better equipped one. i think a 4core device will run more fluid. but noone can guarantee you anything right now
<MrMorf> k1l: tnx for u time and answer  :)
<livefree424> Anyone have an ETA on when you can buy a phone with it pre-installed, ill probly flash it myself after its further developed but I would love to see it for sale in stores
<Hashcode> ^^ about 5 comments
<Hashcode> <k1l> phones with ubuntu-phone are expected not before end of 2013 more like 2014.
<ubuntubhoy_> talking 2014
<k1l> livefree424: end of 2013 or better beginning of 2014 was mentioned
<livefree424> I just rolled in didn't see the other comments but that's cool its not too far out
<darkstar> hi LL
<darkstar> anyone have any fun updates
<darkstar> Hi livefree
#ubuntu-phone 2013-01-26
<krabador> hi ubuntu-phone devs, i'm not a developer, i only would know if with the source to be released, it would be possible to port ubuntu phone os on other devices than galaxy nexus
<k1l> krabador: that should be possible, _but_ keep the hardware specs in mind and be aware that the driver situation is a mess on arm
<krabador> yes, i know about no documentation
<krabador> of arm soc
<bef0rd> as long as you are able to flash other custom ROMs, I think it would be possible to do it
<krabador> k1l, i really would use ubuntu-phone on mine, without an app store too
<krabador> bef0rd, that's properly what i'm hoping for >(
<krabador> :)
<krabador> i really hope in a possibility of canonical to support more platoforms possible
<Hashcode> I'm not sure canonical even needs to directly support more platforms, if the main build is open sourced similar to AOSP.
<Hashcode> I think devs will find a way to make it work :)
<krabador> many dual core with 1gb of ram will never have the actual android version, and especially the next. with ubuntu os properly working, without features of future high specs phones too, i think it would be a great popularity boost for canonical, and for next canonical business
<Hashcode> I have full Android running on 512MB ram devices which never had an original 3.0 kernel.  It's all possible.
<Hashcode> I think Ubuntu will probably run even better on those devices due to the native code etc.
<krabador> Hashcode, yes i was mean "officially"
<krabador> yes
<krabador> i'm really waiting the end of february with impatience, i'm the user type that don't uses all the "core apps" :)
<e3mark> Hello everyone good morning
<surgemcgee> I can not for the life of me figure out why the Template element works in the show case but not alone in my apps! Ahhhhhh
<surgemcgee> Also, encouragement to the Ubuntu team. It feels good to be a IT dev only due to the dedicated teams at Canonical.
<surgemcgee> Like it or not ;)
<arunkumar413> hi guys
<Ciphoenix> hello
<_raven> hi
<_raven> how vis the chace to get ubuntu phone for asus  padphone2?
<livefree424_> Anyone excited to wait about a year
<_raven> how vis the chace to get ubuntu phone for asus  padphone2?
<_raven> anyone here?
<popey> _raven: yes
<_raven> popey how think you about the chance to get ubuntu phone on the asus padphone 2?
<popey> depends if someone is willing to put the work in to make it happen
<_raven> i have to make the decision to send it back
<_raven> obviously there is not at least a cyanogenmod rom for it
<popey> dont bet on us making an image for it
<_raven> means less chance?
<popey> someone in the community might do it, but there's no guarantee of it
<_raven> ok i hope for it
<karanluthra> Im a 3rd year comp sc undergrad, looking forward to contribute to the calendar app for ubuntu mobile os. Where to start from? I just read the user requirements.
<doomlord> _raven: you could consider offering  bounty
<_raven> ?
<doomlord> maybe other padphone owners would do the same
<doomlord> i think its  big job though
<doomlord> Question: What QuadCore phone is most likely to get ubuntu-phone first
<doomlord> ubuntu / google nexus: is there Camera app (stills)
<doomlord> ubuntu / ^galaxy nexus: is there Camera app (stills) .. is it likely to work from the outset
<Yugge> karanluthra: The sourcecode for the ubuntu-phone project will be released in late february, I think it is closed to canonical employees until then.
<popey> yes, there is a camera app
<Robbilie> popey do you think canonical might be interested in a "unity-web" version like i did :D
<Robbilie> http://jsfiddle.net/Robbilie/7CbDn/24/show/
<popey> heh
<Robbilie> ?
<popey> for what purpose?
<Robbilie> showing unity off :)
<Robbilie> what it looks and feels like :)
<popey> pass
<Robbilie> pass?
<Robbilie> couldnt you simplay write full sentences instead of single words? :P
<popey> pass = I don't know. Commonly used in quiz shows when the contestant doesn't know the answer to the question presented.
<Robbilie> well thought smthng like this but didnt know the context :P
<Robbilie> do you know who to ask?
<popey> pass âº
<Robbilie> damn :D
<Robbilie> arent you support? :D
<popey> nope
<Robbilie> anybody else from the irc team here who could help me then? :D
<popey> unlikely on the weekend
<popey> try emailing the mailing list?
<Robbilie> hum which one? :D never used a mailing list ;)
<popey> https://lists.launchpad.net/ubuntu-phone/
<Robbilie> hm thanks
<Robbilie> should i just mail in or mail "this teams admins"
<popey> join the team, subscribe to the list
<Robbilie> already done that but after i joines
<Robbilie> *joined
<popey> email ubuntu-phone@lists.launchpad.net
<doomlord> does ubuntu-phone do any of the sandboxing android/ios do
<doomlord> (i gather in android every app runs in a seperate user?)
<netcurli> doomlord: in https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sZv7aoiq1Kw jono did talk about sandboxing (at around min 19), that they want to do
<popey> thats the plan
<M4rtinK> as long as it is user configurable I'm okay with it :)
<doomlord> i suppose web apps are already sandboxed by the browser
<popey> depends on the browser surely?
<Robbilie> popey, i sent a mail about half an hour ago and nothing changed on the mailing lists website, did i d smthng wrong...?
<doomlord> heh. google NaCl for sandboxing native code in the browser :)
<popey> Robbilie: did you subscribe to the list first?
<Robbilie> sure xD
<Robbilie> oh wait i know what the problem is xD
<Robbilie> now it works xD
<Sinan___> Guys does anyone know that, Since Galaxy Nexus has MHL version 1.0, it doesn't support USB host and HDMI output simultaneously. So how will we use keyboard, mouse and usb storages when we connected to a TV ?
<doomlord> i think one wants a wifi NAS box and bluetooth keyboard
<Sinan___> what about other unique usb devices?
<Sinan___> not just storages
<doomlord> i think one wants a propper hub
<Sinan___> what kind of proper usb hub? there is no usb host on the device
<Sinan___> you can't use usb host and HDMI simultaneously via MHL V1.0
<doomlord> ok one wants another phone and port later :)
<Sinan___> haha
<doomlord> unles one can control things across the network... evreything that matters is networkable i think
<doomlord> phones are about wireless connectivity i think
<Sinan___> but the problem is ubuntu-phone is fully compatible with ONLY Galaxy Nexus
<doomlord> yaeh its a start
<doomlord> i want to know what quadcore phone  will get it first
<doomlord> that'll be my next purchase
<Sinan___> I have a note 2 and I want it to be first :)
<doomlord> i'd love a note 2
<doomlord> i like nexus 4 benchmarks though
<doomlord> so for a pocket computer ..
<Sashko> hello
<baale7> hello
<Sashko> I want to develop an application (calculator) for phones. What programming environment do I need to start with?
<Sashko> some phone emulator for pc?
<doomlord> if you dual boot ubuntu/android on nexus7 - is it possible to have shared storage (one accessing others filesys)
<doomlord> Sashko depends what phone; andriod SDK is availble everywhwere, and iOS sdk on macintosh
<doomlord> android sdk is mostly java
<kevkid> hello all!
<Sinan___> Sashko: you need eclipse and android sdk
<hourd> doomlord: did you find out if you can share the storage?
<doomlord> no
<hourd> damn
<Robbilie> popey, how to respond to the mailing list item i started? :D
<popey> eh?
<Robbilie> i started a new "thread" at the mailing list, how do i respond so it shows up on the page?
<popey> yeah, i saw the mail
<Robbilie> ok damn that was not the way it was intended to work -.- now i have a new thread :(
<popey> just reply to mail
<popey> i mean, if you want to start a new thread, start a new mail
<popey> but if you want to reply, click .. uh.. reply âº
<Robbilie> i replied to the mail but it seems that only the person who answered reveived the mail and my answer isnt shown on the website...?
<popey> it doesn't update instantly
<popey> dont worry about it
<Robbilie> nobody has a saved copy of the countdown that was visible on the ubuntu site early this year...?
<ajalkane> What countdown was that? Not that I have saved any countdowns, just curious...
<Robbilie> the one for ubu phone os :D
<ajalkane> I see sir... well I guess they removed it after noticing the mayan end of world didn't come
#ubuntu-phone 2013-01-27
<Braggart> Ya know, rather than create apps from scratch, why note patch GTK+, Qt libraries to be able to work on different form factors, similar to how some JS library makes the same website auto-adjust to whatever screen size it loads on?
<Braggart> !heroine6
<Braggart> !
<Guest24754> hi
<rudrab> friends, as for ubuntu phones, can we expect an apt-get or autotools in ubuntu phone?
<rudrab> http://www.ubuntu.com/devices/phone is not giving much info about it! or even if it will be based on gtk+ or not...etc
<netcurli> it says under http://www.ubuntu.com/devices/phone/app-ecosystem that it supports html5, qml/qt, opengl.. so: no gtk+ by default
<rudrab> but apt-get/autotools?
<M4rtinK> I think that this is a very important question
<M4rtinK> basically - does it support package dependency handling ?
<popey> I don't think the finer details of package management on the phone have been finally worked out.
<M4rtinK> most mobile platforms (Android, BB10, Nokia/Ovi Store@N9) don't support it at all
<M4rtinK> and its quite an issue if you need to bundle everything in your package
<popey> It's a problem that is certainly being thought about, so it's not something we haven't considered âº
<M4rtinK> popey: good :)
<M4rtinK> popey: for an example of a mobile platform with working package management see Maemo@N900 (it even uses apt-get ! :)
<M4rtinK> there are tons of user ported libraries
<rudrab> popey: I think so! but a linux is *not* linux until we can have freedom to install our own package!
<M4rtinK> and many applications using theme, that would probably never been written without the readily available user-ported libraries in the repository
<M4rtinK> rudrab: that's not enough, until it also pulls it's dependencies
<netcurli> https://plus.google.com/105286472679676145021/posts/FGNiwUSXRPw
<M4rtinK> you can install whatever on Android, but you must still either bundle everything or manually install multiple packages
<rudrab> M4rtink: but then we have to root our phone, and void our warrenty.
<M4rtinK> hmm, I don't think you need to root Android just to install third-party packages - just enable something in settings IIRC
<Sinan___> Losing your warranty for just rooting your phone is plain crap. Do we loose it when we use root on dekstop systems? no. Why it happens when it comes to mobile phones :@
<M4rtinK> a system where you need to void you waranty when installing software on your own device seems quite wrong BTW
<rudrab> M4rtink: I think you are to modest. Sinan used the correct word: "Plain CRAP" ;)
<krovatti> hi everyone, what's interesting in the feed today? )
<rudrab> hope ubuntu wont do that. dont have much hope with tizen when samsung is on board :(
<M4rtinK> rudrab: yeah, they basically do everything behind closed doors
<Sinan___> Ubuntu should make an agreement with a hardware manufacturer to do its own devices, like how MIUI community did a while a go
<M4rtinK> it seems they don't even ignore (some of the ?) Intel developers :)
<Sinan___> I'm sure tons of people would buy it
<Sinan___> http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=phttp://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=k9rOlgNRo2U
<Sinan___> MIUI community is just rom developers and their users. Like cyanogenmod
<rudrab> Sinan: I think it the linux users last hope to have a real linux after maemo
<Sinan___> Nokia intentionally screwed maemo. Unfortunately money comes first for big companies
<krovatti> rudrab: and they'll have
<krovatti> rudrab: maemo is an amazing system, which I love and other billions of peoples :)
<krovatti> Nokia sucks
<krovatti> They fucked Maemo, Symbian
<k1l> billions? i dont think maemo devices sold that often :)
<Sinan___> Community did so with raspberry PI, MIUI phone etc. Ubuntu community can do this as well. Thousands of poeple in Ubuntu community. And they are ready to buy a native ubuntu phone
<M4rtinK> krovatti: yep, most other mobile OS don't come close - but a less dated hardware would be nice :)
<rudrab> I agree.
<krovatti> k1l: I don't think so. I live in Russia and here is not only developers loves Maemo devices and users too and I think that's many peoples, not hundred, not thousand
<Sinan___> I hate samsung, I have bought a note 2 a few days ago and I'm not happy at all
<krovatti> Sinan_: Note 2 is shit
<Sinan___> I can't root it. They have put a control mechanism into their bootloader that check system every boot for su binaries :@
<k1l> krovatti: the n900 e.g. was only sold to nerds. not to regular users here in germany. and even those nerds switched to newer devices, most android ones, very fast
<krovatti> Sinan_: moreover, Android isn't good at all
<Sinan___> I agree
<rudrab> if maemo has small number, this is solely due to nokia. no marketing! see how the pushes M$...and what they did with maemo
<krovatti> k1l: yeah, n900 was shipped only to developers, I know
<Sinan___> If I root my note 2, bootlader says system modified and voids my warranty :@
<k1l> no, it was sold in stores. but no regular user wanted to buy
<krovatti> k1l: Hmm... but that's not about Russia. Here we continue to use it :) we love it :)
<M4rtinK> well, during the recent Maemo infrastructure migration
<M4rtinK> the new repository machine got swamped by 40k+ N900s asking for updates
<M4rtinK> in  a short time window
<M4rtinK> so there are still lots of them
<krovatti> k1l: for beginning, it was for developers only. Next month or some time ago it was sold to the regular users :)
<krovatti> in Russia
<Sinan___> Even further than that HTC is taking web sites that publishes custom roms for their devices :@
<Sinan___> taking down*
<M4rtinK> & looks like they usually don't end in  a drawer but are mostly sold to a new owner as there is still demand for them
<M4rtinK> so new N900 users show up all the time :)
<k1l> of course there ar still n900s around. but they are not used as they were intended to be
<k1l> so here they are more like a raspberry pi with a touchscreen. some fiddeling here, some fiddeling there. but then its waiting some month in the drawer
<M4rtinK> or in the boiler room: http://biopower.garage.maemo.org/
<Yugge> Why can't we time jump until late february, I wanna play around with ubuntu-phone now :)
<Sinan___> what phone do you have?
<Yugge> Galaxy Nexus :)
<Sinan___> it's ok then
<Sinan___> do you have a mhl cable?
<Yugge> Nope, but I can always borrow one from a friend.
<g__> Is there anyone who serious develops the calculator?
<surgemcgee> Is this a "me bug" or a "Ubuntu bug"? -->  tail -f /var/log/syslog  :  Jan 27 13:28:10 Bust0ut12 kernel: [15660.016321] qmlscene[6168]: segfault at ffffffff85ca2a28 ip 00007f4b83b1e0e4 sp 00007fffbf31c5f0 error 4 in libQtQml.so.5.0.0[7f4b83a81000+20f000]
<surgemcgee> It happens when I scroll a listview
<surgemcgee> Well, I guess puuton buttons inside of a component is causing that. Hmmmm
<surgemcgee> Ya, MouseArea  is the way to go in component lisviews [solved]
<doomlord> which quadcore phone is likely to get ubuntu phone first ?
<doomlord> (ubuntu phone is a much bigger reason to get such a thing :))
<Sinan___> none of them except Galaxy Nexus
<doomlord> no official roadmap then?
<doomlord> is it a case of waiting for the community to port it
<Sinan___> Just my opinion
<Sinan___> Galaxy Nexus is used for Ubuntu-phone developing
<doomlord> sure I have one luckily
<Sinan___> So that means it'll be compatible with only Galaxy Nexus
<doomlord> i dont know the landscape of SoC's
<Sinan___> there are no open source GPU drivers for most of android phones
<doomlord> presumably they exist in versions... and there's a quadcore verson of the galaxynexus chipset perhpas?
<doomlord> i guess theres the google nexus 7 aswell for mobile ubuntu itch
<Sinan___> therefore even if your android phone runs ubuntu-phone, there will be no hardware accelerated graphics
<doomlord> yikes
<Sinan___> no hardware h.264 whatsoever
<doomlord> does that apply to the galaxy nexus support were' seeing too
<Sinan___> decoding*
<doomlord> ah they say in the videos "gaming will be great, we're working with.."
<doomlord> so i'm assuming Galaxy Nexus will have gpu support
<Sinan___> yes but only with the ones that have open source GPU drivers
<Sinan___> yes it'll
<doomlord> powrvr sgx540   ti omP
<Sinan___> yes only that gpu has open source driver AFAIK
<doomlord> perhps that means looking for pvr sgx based phones is a good bet
<Sinan___> yep
<dmj_nova> this isn't exactly true
<doomlord> pls elaborate
<Sinan___> this is just my opinion I said
<doomlord> opensource sgx driver = not so?
<dmj_nova> It was announced that if the Ubuntu Phone was running an android-compatible kernel, you could find the binary driver for the android device and use that binary driver on Ubuntu Phone
<doomlord> that sounds more encouraging
<dmj_nova> So that driver can't ship with Ubuntu Phone, but someone could make a ROM that includes it or find some other way to distribute it
<Sinan___> Have you ever seen Ubuntu ARM ports were using devices GPU ?
<dmj_nova> It's not ideal, but that was my interpretation of Mark's words
<dmj_nova> yes
<Sinan___> I tried several of them and none of them were working
<dmj_nova> Any from Linaro?
<Sinan___> yes ?
<Sinan___> is ubuntu phone different from ubuntu ARM ?
<doomlord> want: ubuntu for ps vita :)
<doomlord> i understand that is zero chance
<Sinan___> I mean architecture
<dmj_nova> Sinan___: I believe they're related, but I'm betting there's been some under-the-hood work going on recently that makes the situation better
<dmj_nova> doomlord: I'd guess the ps vita has a locked bootloader
<Sinan___> I'd be awesome
<doomlord> one can dream
<dmj_nova> Sinan___: I'd expect these should have Ubuntu GPU support: http://www.linaro.org/engineering/getting-started/low-cost-development-boards
<doomlord> ok well i will stick with my nexus for forseable future
<doomlord> does ubuntu on nexus 7 use its gpu? (its tegra3?)
<bef0rd> it should
<bef0rd> since afaik ubuntu phone uses android kernel/drivers
<Sinan___> that's the point we need to find out
<Sinan___> the most important thing
<bef0rd> to make it easier for hw vendors, they don't have to give different drivers than the one they already provide for android
<dmj_nova> Mark Shuttleworth said all this during his keynote
<Sinan___> if it will use android drivers and kernel, that'd be amazing
<bef0rd> firefox os does it too
<dmj_nova> Well, Androids differences are *mostly* in the layers above the kernel
<dmj_nova> and the android kernel has been converging with the mainline Linux kernel for a couple years too.
<bef0rd> but they all use dalvik and whatever java apps on android do use
<bef0rd> neither ubuntu or firefox os will use that
<dmj_nova> it's the android userspace that is alien
<Sinan___> I know, android based on dalvik jvm but I never thought ubuntu will use drivers the same way that android uses
<bef0rd> will *require* that, i guess they could still use it if they want to provide a compatibility layer to be able to use android apps
<doomlord> is it true to say android is linux, or not (i know its not gnu/linux)
<doomlord> linux as in kernel?
<Sinan___> both
<Sinan___> kernel linux, OS dalvik java
<dmj_nova> I believe Shuttleworth said that developers could include dalvik in their application if they wanted to port it that way
<doomlord> wow so its a hybrid
<dmj_nova> It's a Linux OS
<dmj_nova> It's just a very oddball one
<dmj_nova> different from the other Linux OS's (sometimes called GNU/Linux)
<doomlord> every app is a user?
<Sinan___> android runs programs in Dalvik JVM, it's not a native linux
<dmj_nova> well, lots of regular linux apps run in a jvm
<dmj_nova> like Minecraft
<dmj_nova> basically, if your app is written in java it's using a jvm
<Sinan___> I didn't know that
<dmj_nova> just not the dalvik one
<Sinan___> don't they run natively?
<doomlord> i think native code when i think linux, of couse that doesnt preclude jvm
<dmj_nova> java apps are compiled to bytecode
<dmj_nova> which is then interpreted by the jvm
<dmj_nova> whereas C code is compiled directly to instructions from the kind of processor it runs on
<dmj_nova> that's what makes it native...there's no interpreter
<stasdizzi> Hello, you intend your VoIP sip client integrated into the system?
<Sinan___> yes, and that's why I curious about the performance loss caused by those interpreters
<Sinan___> until android 2.1 android didn't have JIT
<doomlord> native code ftw
<Sinan___> after 2.2 google started using JIT and there is a big speed up
<Sinan___> I heard that manufacturers put hardware compiler to eliminate performance loss,is this true ?
<doomlord> although i guess a lot of phone apps = native os services & java ui
<doomlord> i have more faith in native code
<Sinan___> me too
<Sinan___> anyway I'm really happy to hear that Ubuntu-Phone will use android drivers :D
<Robbilie> http://jsfiddle.net/Robbilie/7CbDn/32/show/ tell me what you think :) works best on mobile :)
<k1l_> that is tricky in fullscreen with a real unity running :)
<Robbilie> ?
<k1l_> if i go to the left edge to rigger the launcher it triggers my real launcher too :)
<Robbilie> oh xD
<Robbilie> does it lag a lot for you? since i integrated the circles it seems to lagg like hell :(
<k1l_> its not real smooth.
<Robbilie> damn...
<Robbilie> i ned to tweak some things...
<Robbilie> *need
<Robbilie> k1l_, have you tried it on a mobile device? swiping to the second page...
<k1l_> no, just here on my stationary laptop with mouse
<Robbilie> i need to take a look a t the swipe script if its possible to make it work with a mouse
<Robbilie> http://jsfiddle.net/Robbilie/7CbDn/34/show/ k1l_ a new version with swiping on desktop
<Robbilie> last version for today ;)  http://jsfiddle.net/Robbilie/7CbDn/35/show/
<jafa> hellod
