#ubuntu-doc 2005-06-06
<jsgotangco> morning
<Burgundavia> salut
<jsgotangco> whoa its raining so hard outside :(
<Burgundavia> is sunny and very hot here
<jsgotangco> rainy season has begun
<jsgotangco> a german ubuntu book
<jsgotangco> hmm
<jsgotangco> brb
<jsgotangco> what a boring afternoon
<Burgundavia> night here
<jsgotangco> what you doing?
<Burgundavia> cleaning up image copyright on Wikipedia
<Burgundavia> a thankless and mostly boring task
<jsgotangco> hmm i trying to run ubuntu as a server now (setting up)
<jsgotangco> how hard it is to install media wiki?
<jsgotangco> (ill probably just use moin to simplify
<Burgundavia> media is not packaged, but from what I have heard, one of the easiest to set up
<Burgundavia> I would love to see mediawiki, koha, and that RH/Netscape directory server packaged and in Breezy
<jsgotangco> what does directory server do? ldap?
<Burgundavia> yes, ldap
<mdke> hiya
<Burgundavia> salut
<jsgotangco> hey
<mdke> sup
<jsgotangco> oh just messing around
<jsgotangco> brb
<mkde> *laughs*
<mkde> these gnome dudes are crazy
<froud> elo
<froud> oooh nice patches in svn today
<froud> see jerome started on screenshots
<froud> enrico: you home?
<froud> "HP will officially support models nx6110, nc6120, nc6220, nc6230 and 
<froud> nc6000. We hear that every component in the aforementioned models 
<froud> including LAN, WAN, Modem, Sound, Infrared Link, Firewire, Bluetooth, 
<froud> Graphics Adapter, Battery Usage Meter, Suspend to Disk Function, Hotkeys 
<froud> and numerous other features will work right out of the box. Apparently, 
<froud> HP is determined to make certain models work 100 percent with Ubuntu."
<froud> Here is the article in full:
<froud> http://www.cooltechzone.com/index.php?option=content&task=view&id=1341
<enrico> froud: hi
<enrico> I'll be home tomorrow
<enrico> I'll take a plane in 3 hours
<froud> OK, can wait, I wante dto know if you had spoken to mako about the web sites?
* froud off to feast
<mdke> mmm feast
* froud now stuffed
<mdke> *laughs*
<mdke> awesome
<froud> mdke: Ok you saw Breezy Release schedule?
<mdke> i saw the mail but didn't look at if it affects us
<mdke> does it?
<froud> :-)
<froud> of course it does
<mdke> what are the changes?
* froud grabs mdke by both ears and shakes hard
<froud> we now have a schedule to work by
<froud> lets see if we can just review our targets
<mdke> ok cool
<mdke> we need a month for translating i would say
<froud>  21
<froud> 
<froud> September 8th
<froud> 
<froud> 
<froud> /!\ PreviewRelease, /!\ DocumentationStringFreeze
<froud> 
<froud> That is our string freeze
<froud> books we want to be done by then include:
<froud> User Guide
<froud> Quick Guide Update
<mdke> faqguide
<froud> Yep
<froud> and Install guide
<mdke> we need to work out how many sections of the faqguide won't work if we remove the marillat and backports repositories
<froud> these are for gubuntu
* mdke hits froud 
<froud> can we do the same for kubuntu
<froud> jerome is on kwick guide
<mvirkkil> I wrote a formatter module for moin that outputs docbook. 
<froud> you are on user guide and soon will have my help
<mdke> mvirkkil, yeah we heard :))
<mdke> well the installguide is both right?
<froud> mvirkkil: can you checkin to our svn
<mvirkkil> mdke: Wow, cool
<mdke> mvirkkil, you don't follow the docteam list?
<mdke> we should make the userguide g/k ubuntu too
<mvirkkil> mdke: Nope.
<froud> mdke: not sure about that
<mvirkkil> froud: Don't know. Can just anyone commit?
<mdke> mvirkkil, send us your work and we can check it into our repository and play around
<froud> no, send it to me and I will commit
<froud> sean@inwords.co.za
<froud> mvirkkil: we need instruction on how to use it
<froud> basic stuff and we will document it
<mvirkkil> I sent it to Henrik Nielsen Omma. Give me your emails and I'll send it to you too.
<froud> mvirkkil: please send elmo your pgp public keys for an account
<mvirkkil> froud: I've written a short "installation instructions blurb", I'll send that too.
<froud> cool
<froud> perhaps enrico can package it
<froud> and we can get it into the distro
<froud> mdke: so what are the target?
<mvirkkil> froud: Sent.
* froud nods at mvirkkil 
<mdke> froud, didn't you say 7th september?
<froud> no 21
<mvirkkil> froud: I mean the docbook stuff, not pgp
<mdke> [16:55:33]  froud September 8th
<froud> mvirkkil: yes ;_0
<froud> Huh
<froud> See http://udu.wiki.ubuntu.com/BreezyReleaseSchedule
<mvirkkil> froud: What does the ;_O smiley stand for?
<froud> I meant ;-)
<mdke> froud, yeah says documentation freeze 8th september
<froud> oh yes
<froud> me kicks himself
<mdke> that artwork deadline sucks ass
<mdke> cheeky bastards
<froud> we will do OK
<mdke> screenshots will be difficult
<froud> no no we just do them
<mdke> yeah i know
<mdke> the docs can go for translation 8th september
<froud> we can only do what we can do, so long as the docs are correct
<froud> that's the target
<enrico> froud: someone sends me the URL to some tarball and I can try to do my best
<froud> enrico: it will be in our svn
<froud> I will mail you
<mdke> as long as its in svn
<froud> mvirkkil: python, nice
<mvirkkil> froud: Wouldn't have bothered otherwise ;^)
<mdke> are we going to get the docs into the language packs or package them separately?
<mdke> (froud)
<froud> mvirkkil: ok https://docteam.ubuntu.com/repos/trunk/teamstuff/moin2db/xml_docbook.py
<froud> mdke: dunno :-)
<froud> that is mdz question
<mdke> i'll ask em later
<froud> mvirkkil: you know how to use svn right?
<mdke> mvirkkil, great work btw
<mvirkkil> froud: Yes
<froud> mvirkkil: ok I have now also added the content of your email message as txt file to svn
<mvirkkil> mdke: Thanks, still missing features, and probably buggy, but it should work for almost all documents with no macros.
<froud> OK so I understand this
<mvirkkil> froud: Thanks (https://docteam.ubuntu.com/repos/trunk/teamstuff/moin2db/manual)
<froud> this py is to port moin to db xml
<froud> In our process we will be using it to port frozen wiki stuff into the docs
<froud> the output should go in incomming
* mdke nods
<froud> until we can decide where to put the editorial
<froud> once in svn the wiki doc is not to be edited
<froud> is that right?
<froud> or do we use a2m to port changes back to moin
<mdke> the idea was the stable wiki pages would be copied to frozen locations and then ported
<froud> so we are manually roundtripped
<froud> do we have this list yet?
<mdke> a team of editors would do that (possibly the people who have commit access to svn)
<mdke> the original wiki pages would be left open
<froud> and so how to track changes in the wiki
<froud> we cant keep doing this script
<mdke> froud, the process could be repeated about once every release cycle
<froud> Ah yes forgot
<mdke> it wouldn't be necessary to do more because the doc would be stable when frozen
<froud> we hope
<mdke> there would be a suggestions page for users to suggest which pages are suitable
<froud> Ok
<mdke> then the "editors" would decide whether they were suitable for freezing or not
<froud> what happened to the new web site idea
<froud> horse shoe remember
<mdke> once the document is ported, it can be (a) put on the website (b) released with the docs (c) put on the cd as pdf etc etc
<mdke> maybe translated too
<froud> on what web site?
<mdke> ubuntu
<froud> I have asked enrico to speak to mako about getting help.ubuntu.com
<mdke> henrik can organise it if you like
<froud> and to use docteam.ubuntu.com
<mdke> what would docteam.ubuntu.com be fore?
<mdke> fore/for
<froud> I thik help.ubuntu should be for released
<mdke> help.ubuntu.com is a nice idea
<mdke> henrik can organise that with elmo
<froud> and docteam.ubuntu for in progress
<mdke> but in progress is svn
<froud> yes, but we need more visability into progress
<froud> in html at docteam.ubuntu we can get this
<mdke> oh right so you mean docteam.ubuntu.com for the svn repo?
<mdke> oh right
<froud> yes, just in html
<mdke> fair enough
<froud> OK so will you contact Hendrik for this
<mdke> if I were you, i'd speak to henrik about this, he can sort it
<mdke> *laughs*
<mdke> great minds think alike
<froud> :-)
<froud> OK, I will contact him
<mdke> either you do it, or I'll do it after i've handed in my exams on friday
<froud> enrico: please note there is no need to speak to mako, we will speak via Hendrik
<mdke> ++
<froud> I will do it, you need to study
<mdke> good point
<mdke> afk
<froud> I may need a lawyer one day
<mdke> froud, i'll be there
<froud> and I want to know that the lawyer is up to it :-)
<mdke> *grins*
* mdke buys some books on south african law
<froud> we dont have law, it's africa
<mdke> ok later
<froud> ok
<froud> mvirkkil: so you will arange a commit account for svn
<froud> that way you have version control and a bunch of testers
<froud> :-)
<mvirkkil> froud: Sounds good. Need to learn gpg again. I haven't used it for like 5 years (no need).
<enrico> froud: lovely!
<froud> enrico: where are you know, Amsterdam?
<enrico> Yes
<enrico> need to be at the airport in an hour
<froud> Cool how the girly
<enrico> she's fine and cute
<froud> cool man, good for you ;-)
<enrico> froud: we're just finishing up a paper we're writing together
<froud> cool, message sent
<froud> OK I now go away and come back as venda :-) see ya in a minute
<froud> mvirkkil: is th epy installed already
<froud> mvirkkil: you there?
<froud> mvirkkil: I want to test your script, can you point me to a server where it is installed
<froud> mvirkkil: I see you have moved up to docbook 4.4. If we move back to 4.3 is it a problem?
<mvirkkil> froud: I have no public server where it's installed.
<mvirkkil> froud: I'm not very familiar with docbook, I just picked the latest release, and made sure the output validated against the dtd.
<mvirkkil> froud: I could open up a port in the firewall for you, but that would be temporary.
<froud> OK, I will move the script in svn down to 4.3
<froud> how long can you open the port for
<mvirkkil> froud: If you give me your IP address, I can open it up for just you. Then I could have it open for a while.
<froud> I too am behind a firewall and router via dsl
<froud> ~froud@ndn-165-138-57.telkomadsl.co.za
<mvirkkil> froud: I've opened it up for all. I'll keep it open a couple of days, hoping no one is interested enough to hack it.
<mvirkkil> froud: http://85.76.5.53/~mvirkkil/cgi-bin/moin.cgi
<froud> ok
<froud> mvirkkil: anyway to determine headings to sect1. sect2. sect3, etc?
<froud> when " is a character in the value of an element use <quote></quote>
<froud> use case:
<froud> <para>
<froud> <emphasis role="strong">Tip:</emphasis>
<froud>  Shift-click "
<froud> <ulink url="/~mvirkkil/cgi-bin/moin.cgi/InterWiki">HelpOnEditing</ulink>
<froud> " to open a second window with the help pages. 
<froud> </para>
<froud> <para>
<froud> <emphasis role="strong">Tip:</emphasis>
<froud>  Shift-click <quote>
<froud> <ulink url="/~mvirkkil/cgi-bin/moin.cgi/InterWiki">HelpOnEditing</ulink>
<froud> </quote> to open a second window with the help pages. 
<froud> </para>
<froud> I will change role="strong" to role="bold"
<mvirkkil> froud: Wha? You want " to be replaced by quote (not something moin easily does), but what is the rest?
<froud> that's it really, instead of using " we need to use &quot;....&quot; or <quote>.....</quote>
<mvirkkil> froud: &quot; is simple <quote>...</quote> would be extremely difficult to get right.
<froud> ok lets just do &quot; we can easily replace that
<froud> with section can we detect nesting so that we get sect1, sect2, sect3 etc
<mvirkkil> froud: The code should gracefully adapt to situations where people use the "=== First Heading ===" stuff wrong
<froud> Yeah, know the problem
<froud> ok
<froud> with section can we detect nesting so that we get sect1, sect2, sect3 etc
<froud> ooop
<froud> svn commit -m * role to v4.3 of dtd * role="strong" now role="bold" xml_docbook.py 
<mvirkkil> froud: I mean that my code does that. That's why I used section instead of sect1, it was easier to code this way.
<froud> yes I see that you use section
<froud> if it is a problem then leave it as such
<mvirkkil> froud: It shouldn't be impossible, since <section> currently gets it right. It was just  easier the first time around to do it like that.
<froud> yeah theat's the problem, we depend on correct usag eof moin synax
<froud> how about admonitions
<froud> like
<froud> <para>
<froud> <emphasis role="strong">Tip:</emphasis>
<froud>  Shift-click "
<froud> <ulink url="/~mvirkkil/cgi-bin/moin.cgi/InterWiki">HelpOnEditing</ulink>
<froud> " to open a second window with the help pages. 
<froud> </para>
<froud> we would do
<froud> <tip></tip>
<froud> <warning></warning> etc
<froud> anyway of handling those?
<froud> also linking
<froud> <ulink url="/~mvirkkil/cgi-bin/moin.cgi/InterWiki">HelpOnEditing</ulink>
<mvirkkil> froud: The linking code is quite broken atm
<froud> for us would be <xref linkend="/~mvirkkil/cgi-bin/moin.cgi/InterWiki"/>
<froud> actually valu eof linkend would be = to value of id on target
<froud> <xref linkend="target-node-id-value"/>
<froud> but this requires some way to markup the moin: -(
<froud> Perhaps using { }
<froud> <ulink url="http://moinmoin.wikiwikiweb.de/InterWiki">InterWiki</ulink> is good
<froud> <ulink url="mailto:someone@the.inter.net">someone@the.inter.net</ulink> is wrong do
<froud> <email>someone@the.inter.net</email>
<mvirkkil> froud: <email> tags should work, or at least I think I remember there was a way to get them working.
<froud> the docbook xsl handles <email> out the box :-)
<froud> no need for tinker
<froud> <inlinemediaobject> good, missing depth in cm scalefit="1"
<froud> need to handle <mediaobject>
<froud> we also use <screenshot>
<froud> is there way to detect procedure and use <procedure>
<mvirkkil> froud: How are we automagically going to know if it's a screenshot or not?
<froud> :-) that's the million $ question
<froud> 90% of time is screenshot
<froud> so better to mark as screenshot and let us manually handle the 10% error
<froud> sorry I am just giving ideas
<froud> there is no way to do this 100%, but we can reach an optimum compromise 
<mvirkkil> Ok, so I'll use screenshot instead.
<froud> screenshot wraps <mediaobject>
<froud> Or is it the other way
<froud> holf
<froud> hold
<mvirkkil> froud: No, <screenshot><screeninfo>640x480x256</screeninfo><graphic fileref="copilot.gif"></graphic></screenshot>
<froud> no graphic
<froud> it wll be depreciated
<mvirkkil> Ok, yes, then screenshot wraps mediaobject
<mvirkkil> froud: Would you mind writing me an email about the changes you want to see (preferably with priorities) and some info about getting svn access (who to mail, with what info etc)?
<froud> sure
<froud> her ei sthe screen shot
<froud> <screenshot>
<froud>             <mediaobject>
<froud>                 <imageobject>
<froud>                     <imagedata fileref="foo.png" scalefit="1" depth="Xcm"/>
<froud>                 </imageobject>
<froud>             </mediaobject>
<froud>         </screenshot>
<mvirkkil> froud: I'll try to do some changes. Feel free to implement them your self if you want though.
<froud> sure, but I am just learning python, started this weekend
<froud> OK will mail you
<froud> svn up so you will get the two changes I just made
<froud-away> oop
<froud-away> svn commit -m * fix doctype decl to be both 4.3 xml_docbook.py --non-interactive 
<jeffsch> mvirkkil: are you there?
<mvirkkil> jeffsch: Yes. 
<mvirkkil> jeffsch: The server my screen is on got rebooted for the first time in 6 months.
<jeffsch> I saw your moin to docbook. nice
<mvirkkil> jeffsch: Hope it'll be useful. You should also thank Henrik Nielsen Omma who suggested that I do it.
<jeffsch> I have a question though...
<mvirkkil> jeffsch: Shoot.
<jeffsch> would it be easier for the script to convert the html produced by the wiki engine into docbook?
<mvirkkil> jeffsch: No
<mvirkkil> jeffsch: :)
<jeffsch> why?
<mvirkkil> jeffsch: The parser calls the formatters methods, and the formatter outputs something. We can output html or docbook. 
<mvirkkil> If we output html and then convert that to docbook, we have less control, and if the html changes our scripts might break.
<mvirkkil> That would however fix the problems with the macros, but it wouldn't be the 'right thing' since in the long run it would just cause more pain and more invalid markup.
<jeffsch> i was thinking for the python to grab the html from http://whatever, then use html2docbook
<jeffsch> ok. so it's easier to convert the moin directly then.
<venda> hello jeffsch 
<jeffsch> hey froud look-like
<venda> what's the status of style guide?
<jeffsch> on track as per schedule. I'll be putting the first bits into svn on or around June 1
<venda> OK, I thought it was already in svn
<venda> :-)
<venda> I have not looked in the folder
<jeffsch> no, that's just the plan.
<venda> OK, better to get in sooner than later
<venda> we need review and it would be better to have transparency
<venda> jeffsch: what else are you currently working on?
<jeffsch> only style guide. My time is limited all of a sudden. I only have 8 hours or so per week now :(
<venda> OK, that's fine
<venda> do you think your schedule will improve during 5.10 devel?
<jeffsch> It might improve in July and August. In Sept I'm back at school full-time
<venda> OK that's good to know, what type of commitment can you give in these months?
<jeffsch> I can't say for sure, I will know better at the end of June
<venda> OK cool
<venda> I am just trying to plan our devel for 5.10
<venda> always good to know who can give resource
<venda> k31th: ping
<venda> mpt: ping
<venda> at present we have three people comiting often
<venda> I am not sure that this is enough for us to reach all our targets
<venda> jeffsch:  I will increase my commits, but I need support in the editing. Much of the stuff I will be doing at light speed
<venda> I am bound to make mistakes in this mode
<venda> perhaps July August you can do editing?
<jeffsch> no problem
<venda> could be wide spread across docs
<venda> main targets we have are:
<venda> update Ubuntu Quick guide
<venda> release Kubuntu Kwick Guide
<venda> release Ubuntu User Manual
<venda> release Ubuntu / Kubuntu Installation Guide
<venda> release Official version of Ubuntu FAQ Guide
<venda> release Official version of Kubuntu FAQ Guide
<venda> Release Notes
<venda> I think that covers it
<venda> Supporting this I need to release HTML-based help system
<venda> = normalize computer dictionary and integrate it to our build
<venda> * maybe impliment olinks
<venda> We may need to get artwork for the HTML Help system
<venda> that's it :-) no pressure
<jeffsch> pressure? what's that? :)
<jeffsch> I saw your computer dictionary. You are using forrest?
<venda> that's when sleep deprevation sets in and we all get ratty with each other :-)
<venda> At lease we now have i18n sorted
<venda> we should also have nightly builds uploaded on docteam.ubuntu.com
<venda> this will help us and other in the community to get visability into the work we are doing in svn
<venda> hopefully hendrik can arrange this
<jeffsch> yes. and it will alsow help to encourage participation
<venda> at 5.10 release the help system will be moved to help.ubuntu.com
<venda> yes
<venda> and feedback
<venda> I think mvirkkils' script and your xsl's will be used in this process
<venda> I hope trickie can come back and do Release Notes
<jeffsch> yes. hopefully we will only need to do 10 or 20 percent manual stuff
* venda reminds himself to contact trickie
<venda> I wonder if we contact people like plovs, they may have time
<mdke> you can stress devel to get release notes
<mdke> maybe
<venda> I am just trolling the list for candidates
<mdke> thats part of their job description imo
<venda> you trust devel to write clear notes? :-)
<mdke> we can clear it up
<venda> perhaps we can talk to mdz
* mdke nods
<jeffsch> i have to run now. laundry. cya.
<venda> where is corey
<venda> c ya
<venda> mdke: r you ok with the targets I listed above?
<mdke> you bet
<venda> after your exams, how will your schedule go during 5.10
<mdke> not sure yet
<mdke> i should have some time to spend on userguide
<venda> OK so you will remain just on the user guide?
<mdke> i can help with the ubuntu faq guide if the userguide goes well
<venda> OK I will soon also work on user guide
<mdke> i'm happy to do linguistic corrections on anything
<venda> ok
<venda> perhaps I will take one of my staff and put them on some work
<mdke> ?
<mdke> its unpaid tho
<venda> yes
<venda> gift
<mdke> you have staff?
<mdke> cool
<venda> I can probably allocate 15% of one person
<mdke> you're crazy ;)
<venda> maybe
<venda> I hav emy business model
<venda> and this fits
<mdke> your call ;)
<mdke> maybe there will be more volunteers tho
<mdke> i think we can get it done even without
<venda> perhaps, but if we come to a corner I will commit the addition 15%
<mdke> ok we can see how it goes
<venda> At present our capacity is short by 35%
<venda> well if my calc is right
<mdke> *laughs*
<mdke> damn maths
<venda> that's why I am trolling for people :-)
<mdke> lets see how we do
<venda> ok
<venda> night night, sweet dreams, don't let the bed bugs bite!
#ubuntu-doc 2005-06-07
<jsgotangco> hola
<Burgundavia> salut
<jsgotangco> oh i see Liz became list owner as well
<jsgotangco> i havent seen her for quite some time though
<jsgotangco> these aussies sure make weird passwords
<Burgundavia> heh
<Burgundavia> you should see the -ca one
<jsgotangco> how active is the list?
<Burgundavia> not bad
<Burgundavia> a couple a week
<jsgotangco> what's the score on your svn account?
<Burgundavia> score?
<Burgundavia> no idea, I haven't had access to it since I reinstalled
<jsgotangco> i mean what's the status of your request to elmo
<Burgundavia> oh, I haven't bothered following up right
<Burgundavia> now
<jsgotangco> ok
<jsgotangco> do you mind if i upload your svg brochure to svn?
<Burgundavia> sure
<Burgundavia> go nuts
<jsgotangco> robitaille, hello
<robitaille> good evening jsgotangco 
<robitaille> I was checking my old bugs tonight, and noticed this one:  https://bugzilla.ubuntu.com/show_bug.cgi?id=7195
<robitaille> why it is seems it isn't easy to solve since it has been opened for so long.   I always tought it was simply a typo somewhere in one of the package.
<robitaille> maybe I should take a deeper long one of these days...
<robitaille> s/long/look
<robitaille> ...I'm re-reading what I just typed (full of typos)... It seems I'm having a bad typing day :)
<jsgotangco> ahhh
<jsgotangco> let me check this in full
<jsgotangco> i think this is scrollkeeper
<jsgotangco> well most likely packaged stuff from upstream that scrollkeeper just catalogs
<robitaille> since the bug is assigned to him, is Enrico around these days?  I can't remember seeing him on IRC or on the mailing list in  a while
<jsgotangco> he's been busy with his job but he drops here usually at dawn in your time
<jsgotangco> i could bug enrico about it when he drops by though
<jsgotangco> wow this is the first time i did ubuntu as an apache server
<jsgotangco> that apache2.conf is genius
<jsgotangco> just need to figure out moin now
<jsgotangco> hi Liz 
<Liz> hi jsgotangco 
<venda> African Greetings
<Liz> kia ora sean
<jsgotangco> eh?
<froud> African Greetings
<Liz> kia ora froud
<froud> hi ya Liz where you been
<froud> jsgotangco: howzit
<jsgotangco> hey froud been busy :)
<venda> yep very busy
<venda> did you manage to speak to the author of kubuntuguide?
<jsgotangco> nope not yet
<jsgotangco> i should do
* jsgotangco makes a note
<Liz> busy with the final week of uni..just in study right now before exams
<venda> OK, I see you started the screen captures
<venda> Liz you and mdke make a good pair, both of you are studying
<jsgotangco> venda, they're just basic caps not sure if they pass QA
<venda> chaps I am trolling for commitment to 5.10 devel on the docs. Liz, jsgotangco how will your schedules be between now and sept 8th
<jsgotangco> venda, unpredictable but i'll live
<venda> if you check the log I gave a list last night, are you OK with these targets
<jsgotangco> hmm where is that?
<jsgotangco> let me check the log
<Liz> after next week, when i sit my final exam for this semester..it should be good till class starts again
<venda> when does class start again
<jsgotangco> you got any good link for log workaround logs seem dead
<venda> yeah so I see
<venda> OK here goes
<venda> update Ubuntu Quick Guide
<venda> release Kubuntu Kwick Guide
<venda> release Ubuntu User Guide
<venda> release Kubuntu User Guide
<venda> release Ubuntu FAQ Guide
<venda> release Kubuntu FAQ Guide
<venda> release Ubuntu Install Guide
<venda> release Kubuntu Install Guide
<venda> Release Notes
<venda> those are the targets
<venda> mdke is on Ubuntu User Guide
<venda> jeff-away: says in July August he can do some work and editing
<venda> I am doing touches on Ubuntu FAQ Guide
<jsgotangco> Kubuntu Quick Guide will be done before June ends
<jsgotangco> its mostly caps now
<venda> working to finish k/Ubuntu Install Guide
<jsgotangco> Kubuntu User Guide is still empty though
<venda> Then I am moving to K/Ubuntu User Guides
<jsgotangco> after i do the quick guide i might do the developer docs (if there is still time)
<venda> developer docs?
<jsgotangco> yeah have to troll tseng about it though
<venda> Hmmm, not part of our targets
<jsgotangco> don't worry about it
<venda> will you have time to work on the other targets
<jsgotangco> ill look into the other docs later what needs to be done
<venda> Liz: how does the above look for you?
<venda> Heaps of stuff
<jsgotangco> kubuntu quick guide is almost done anyway, probably 70%
<venda> Burgundavia: can you commit to one of the above docs
<jsgotangco> and it will just wait for changes
<Liz> definitely a heap of stuff...
<jsgotangco> (of course not including QA)
<Liz> im not using Kubuntu tho..so i dont know whats what there
<Liz> i dont use kde that is
<venda> jsgotangco: yes, for 5.10 it will just be a case of upgrading kwickguide to breezy
<venda> Liz that's Ok
<venda> I think jsgotangco and I can handle kde
<jsgotangco> yeah Kubuntu is not so complicated
* venda KDE gooooood
<jsgotangco> oh right
<jsgotangco> i hvae a question though on kde
<venda> sure
<jsgotangco> what's the most decent docbook viewer for that
<jsgotangco> (gnome has yelp)
<jsgotangco> (kde = ?)
<venda> there is not. Khelp center does not read XML
<jsgotangco> gyahhh
<venda> but this is not a problem
<jsgotangco> that's what i figured
<jsgotangco> :(
<jsgotangco> eh?
<jsgotangco> i dont want to transform
<venda> since we will be transforming to HTML
<venda> we hope that docteam.ubuntu.com will do a nightly build
<jsgotangco> i know we're transforming but i don't want to transform everytime to view the doc
<jsgotangco> thats why yelp is still very accessible
<venda> this would be good since then people outside will have visability into the work in svn
<venda> so just install yelp
<jsgotangco> i was hoping to avoid to install yelp
<venda> but I can say that most of the k/ubuntu docs will not support yelp very soon
<venda> best thing is to transform
<jsgotangco> you transform only when done
<venda> I plan shipping html-based help system with 5.10
<venda> yelp and khelpcenter both read html
<venda> the xml will be shipped as src package
<venda> the html-based system will be built on docteam.ubuntu.com, on 5.10 release it will be moved to help.ubuntu.com
<venda> 5.10 will also include glossary sections
<jsgotangco> you lost me
<venda> and I hope to have time for olinks
* jsgotangco havent been attentive on emails lately
<venda> inter-document cross-references
<venda> thats ok I am filling you in now :-)
<venda> Liz: which of the above can you commit on?
<venda> Burgundavia: are you in on any of these documents?
* venda also remember we now have the moin to docbook thang from mvirkkil 
<venda> so many wiki things will be ported to docbook in th eincoming folder
<venda> jsgotangco: did you get the posters
<venda> in artwork/
<venda> very simple
<venda> but clear and they work
<jsgotangco> its ok
<jsgotangco> im uploading more soon
<venda> that's good, in inkscape format?
<jsgotangco> yeah
<venda> svg :-)
<venda> love it
<jsgotangco> moin has been keeping me busy lately though
<Liz> whats the most pressing venda ?
<venda> everything:-)
<venda> we can't update ubuntu quick guide until we know what breezy looks like
<venda> I think that is where the least work is
<venda> Ubuntu User Guide would be a goo dplace to focus
<venda> just liase with mdke on what sections he is doing
<venda> Fixes and improvements on Ubuntu FAQ Guide are welcome
<jsgotangco> fine and dandy but he should still do it in svn
<venda> jsgotangco: huh?
<venda> it is all in svn
<venda> you mean jiyuu0 
<Liz> i dont even have them all updated at the moment
<Liz> this is the first time ive been in in a while
<venda> just svn up
<venda> make pwd the trunk and do svn up
<venda> jsgotangco: jiyuu0 says he will work in svn form here in
<venda> jsgotangco: we can't force him to do this, if he does not, then we will just fork from him and do our own thing
<venda> jsgotangco: that's his choice
<venda> same with the kubuntu user guide
<venda> we encourage them both to work with us in svn, but we can't force it
<jsgotangco> understandable
<venda> ok I must get dressed and start working. c ya all later :-)
<jsgotangco> you mean you've been chatting naked
<venda> Liz: nice seeing ya ggain stranger
<venda> yep
<jsgotangco> urrkk
<venda> :-) in th eb'day suite
<Liz> see ya venda
<Liz> bbtomorrow
<tarvid> is there a searchable hardware database?
<venda> evening
* #ubuntu-doc  [freenode-info]  please register your nickname...don't forget to auto-identify! http://freenode.net/faq.shtml#nicksetup
(tarvid/#ubuntu-doc) looking for a list of recommended modems and compatible printers
(tarvid/#ubuntu-doc) i haven't found a searchable hardware database 
<tarvid> i am lucky enough to have T1s and broadband but many of my customers are not
<venda> Hmm, I don't think the Ubuntu Hardware database is searchable yet. 
<tarvid> I'd like to be able to tell them "Buy this modem" and it just works.
<venda> Just a sec
* venda goes to check
<mdke> you can ask ogra about the hardware database, you'll find him in #ubuntu-devel
<mdke> otherwise the only thing I can think of is http://wiki.ubuntu.com/HardwareSupport but I have no idea how extensive it is
<mdke> tarvid ^^
<venda> tarvid: there is some basic stats on http://hwdb.ubuntu.com
<tarvid> http://hwdb.ubuntu.com is rather sparse
<tarvid> http://wiki.ubuntu.com/HardwareSupport has no modems
<mdke> better ask ogra then
<venda> Hmm, yes, the hwdb is new and it is just being built.
<venda> mdke: OK the faq is now updated to ubuntuguide 3.04 and is well-formed and valid to the best of my knowledge. People can start fixing and adding to it :-)
<venda> I don't think Chau is going to play game and do updated in svn as he said
<venda> so I think it best we do what it is we want to do and just fork from him
<venda> do you think we need to track ubuntuguide.org, I really did not want this overhead.
<mdke> venda, well if you think about it it was reasonable for him to do updates on the site
<mdke> svn wasn't well formed until now
<mdke> and he hasn't yet seen that he can do updates in svn and get them quickly onto the site
<venda> No from v3 align it was valid and well-formed. The doc was open for edit I was just fixing markup
<mdke> so if he wants to make urgent changes, (like removing the add on cd for legal reasons), he thought it was necessary to do it straight onto the site
<mdke> you'll have to show him how to edit it in svn and convert to html so he can export it to the site
<mdke> even then, you might be right, he might not play ball anyway
<venda> yeah, I was hoping he would do it in svn and tranform then upload to the site
<venda> or we could show him how to transform and upload to the site
<mdke> he'll need a commit account before he will stop working on the site too
<venda> I have already made a number of fixes he could have benfitted from
<venda> I asked him to send mail to elmo
<venda> and enrico has said good
<venda> they did not get email from him
<venda> we also offered to patch for him
<venda> this is why I think he does not want to play ball
<venda> anyway, it is up to us now
<mdke> you'll have to explain more patiently how it works
<mdke> in terms of svn/commit access etc
<venda> so please feel free to make updates as you see fit
<mdke> but even so, you might be right
<venda> we gave him step by step
<venda> documented on the wiki :-)
<mdke> for getting commit access?
<mdke> saying "send a mail to elmo" might not be enough
<venda> no how to checkout update create patches etc
<mdke> we have to explain why, and how it works
<venda> dude, you think he still does not copmprehend
<mdke> a bit of both imo
<venda> I think he just plays stupid
<venda> it suits him to do so
<venda> I know that sounds brutal
<venda> new subject
<mdke> k
<venda> I really like mvirkkil's script
<mdke> ok cool
<venda> it won't go all the way, but at least we only need to concern ourselves with 10-20% overhead in porting
<mdke> thats top
<mdke> ok we can scrap the template idea then
<venda> yes, but they will be useful to people who just want to start a doc in svn
<venda> perhaps we should leave then there until we know if they will be used or not
<mdke> good point
<venda> Hmm right no more work for tonight
<mdke> good man
<mdke> you goddam spammer
* venda decides to give the commit-list a rest
<venda> :-)
<venda> somebody has to do it
<mdke> wait longer between commits?
<venda> thing is I like to work small, commit often
<venda> safer
<venda> good devel proactice
<venda> easy to fix patches
<venda> just retrieve it and fix it and commit it
<mdke> fair enough
<venda> but makes heavy traffic :-(
<venda> on the upside it makes us all look busy :-)
<mdke> true true
* venda goes in search of mako
<mdke> he's disappeared lately
<venda> yeah he has become illusive after udu
<venda> probably pissed ast me
<mdke> nah he's mega busy in the last few days
<mdke> probably travelling
* venda hopes so
<mdke> i've been chasing him too
<mdke> btw did you see LaptopTestingTeam?
<venda> no whats happening there?
<mdke> check it out
* venda goes to make tea first
<venda> hmm big list of people
<mdke> true
<mdke> not everyone will get one i guess
<mdke> there was an enormous influx of wiki Userpages today
<mdke> ;)
<venda> enrico: how's your schedule going to be during 5.10 development?
<mdke> Be BaCk LaTeR
<mdke> my national football team needs my support
<enrico> venda: busy, I guess.  Full time job goes until the end of 2005
<venda> ok
<venda> mdke: how's you r legal know on GFDL and CC-BY-SA 2.0
<mdke> zilch
<mdke> but i can look it up
<venda> OK, example
<venda> our docs are released under dual license
<mdke> i wonder whether licenses which people dont' pay for are enforceable or not
<venda> what happens if we get a doc under one or the other license and want to include it in whole or in part into a doc that is under the dual regime
<mdke> surely its up to you what license you grant
<mdke> ask whoever holds the copyright
<mdke> and if they say yes, then go for it
<venda> no the external author spec the license
<venda> lets say GFDL
<venda> we can reuse this doc
<mdke> i don't know how it works
<venda> the license says so
<mdke> licenses are only valid if you can enforce them in court
<venda> but we have dual license
<mdke> i'm not 100% sure that a license given for free would be enforceable, at least under my legal system
<mdke> i'd have to look it up
<venda> fsf is good at enforcing and is cc
<venda> ok
<mdke> i'll have a look at the fsf stuff and see if I can understand how it works
<venda> night
#ubuntu-doc 2005-06-08
<nufan> Anyone active?
<carthik> nufan, just ask :)
<carthik> I may know the answer, though highly unlikely
<nufan> It's to do with helpng out with LaptopTestingHardware on the wiki
<carthik> nufan, it might be a good idea to ask the entire question in one go :)
<nufan> I have an iBook and would like to help out, butu I'm not sure if I am 'allowed' to edit the wiki page
<carthik> nufan, you are
<nufan> OK
<nufan> That's good :P
<nufan> Thank you
<mdke> *laughs*
<mdke> have cut a few things off the FrontPage
<mdke> put them in second level pages
<mkde> http://nat.org/demos/monodoc.html
<mkde> how cool is that
<mpt> carthik! Fancy seeing you here
<jsgotangco> hey Burgundavia 
<Burgundavia> salut
<mpt> hi Burgundavia
<Burgundavia> salut mpt
<venda> African Greetings
<Burgundavia> salut venda
<jsgotangco> hello
<venda> hello chaps
<venda> anyone got time to test that mono help viewer matthew spoke about
<jsgotangco> yeah
<jsgotangco> we and Burgundavia talked about it before
<jsgotangco> its an api doc app
<jsgotangco> (not sure if its extensible at the moment(
<venda> hmm, if the src is there and its mono, then it must be
<venda> that beagle thing is cool
<venda> I wonder if it can be embeded
* venda thinks to use it as a search function within help view environment
<venda> Burgundavia: you've played with it, what do you think?
<Burgundavia> another doc viewer
<Burgundavia> nothing special, to be honest
<venda> is it lighter than a browser and yelp/khelpcenter
<Burgundavia> hmm, didn't really check
<Burgundavia> might be
<Burgundavia> but it also probably does less
<venda> yes, tradeoff
<venda> but if it is faster, then then our help app can do the main functions
<venda> well just an idea
<jsgotangco> its quite fast compared to yelp
<venda> guys I am thinking to use the MS HTML Format for help, just not to compile it into CHM
<venda> see here for information http://www.sagehill.net/docbookxsl/HtmlHelp.html#HHTOCs
<venda> Instead of compiling it, we will use a frameset
<venda> this will give us all the features of MS help, with the ability to run on the web or under any browser
<venda> of ocurse we will not have to encode the docs for windows, we remain at UTF-8
<venda> thoughts?
<Burgundavia> hmm, I have no idea, so I will not comment either way
<jsgotangco> it would be easier for sure though
<venda> yes, it is also close to what many of the windows users who try ubuntu are accustomed to
<venda> remember what mpt was saying
<venda> I think the compromise is to use the technical structure, but remain flexible to customization
<venda> but we will not be supporting features like the ms help buttons
<venda> those are up to the individual help viewer
<venda> if for example somebody develops a help viewer they can always enable the help buttons in their app
<mpt> What's an "ms help button"?
<venda> I started learning python last week, I hope to be able to write a help viewer for us
<venda> mpt: on ms help there are several buttons that can be enabled/disabled on the ms help viewer
<venda> mostly for navigation etc
* mpt realizes who venda is
<venda> Hide/Show	htmlhelp.button.hideshow
<venda> Back	htmlhelp.button.back
<venda> Forward	htmlhelp.button.forward
<mpt> venda: (1) Will it have a search function?
<venda> Stop	htmlhelp.button.stop
<venda> Refresh	htmlhelp.button.refresh
<mpt> venda: (2) Will it be faster to launch than yelp?
<venda> Home	htmlhelp.button.home
<venda> Options	htmlhelp.button.options
<venda> Print	htmlhelp.button.print
<venda> Locate	htmlhelp.button.locate
<venda> Next	htmlhelp.button.next
<venda> Previous	htmlhelp.button.previous
<venda> Zoom	htmlhelp.button.zoom
<venda> Yes search will be embeded into our html
<mpt> venda: I'm talking about the help viewer
<mpt> (hence my comparison to yelp)
<mpt> not about the HTML
<venda> I want any app capable of rendering html to be available for use
<venda> so how fast is dependant on what app is used
<venda> hence Iwas interested in the monodoc we spoke about earlier
<mpt> venda: I'm responding to this: <venda> I started learning python last week, I hope to be able to write a help viewer for us
<venda> Oh
<venda> I will design it to be fast
<venda> it is a major consideration
<jsgotangco> you can extend it to wxpython or something similar
<mpt> venda: So writing a new help viewer from scratch will be quicker than implementing search in yelp and making yelp fast?
<venda> I will post a spec and interface design, I would like it to be a community project
<venda> mpt: no
<venda> but yelp etc can still read HTML very well
<mpt> So why not do the latter?
<venda> the idea of doing a new viewer is to be able to tailor faster
<mpt> Tailor what to what faster?
<venda> If we want our own this thingy or that
<venda> also we can design new concepts
<mpt> Thingy? Concepts?
* mpt is confussssed
<venda> you said, Linux help sucks and so does windows, we can try some new ideas
<venda> perhaps you can help us with your toughts there
<mpt> Well I have in my head exactly what I'd like a help viewer should look like, and it's not very different from yelp
<venda> nobody is happy with the tools available
<jsgotangco> mpt, you have a mockup or something?
<mpt> should --> to
<venda> But help must load lots of baggage
<mpt> jsgotangco: No, only in my head at the moment :-)
<venda> yes, the diff is not large, but making your own you can do things that yelp team wont want to do
<venda> mpt can you sketch the interface
<venda> I have the following requirements:
<venda> faster
<venda> simpler
<venda> better
<venda> that's it
<mpt> And you think the yelp team don't want any of those things? :-)
<venda> they carry to much baggage
<jsgotangco> heh
<venda> many of things we would want, they dont want
<venda> and they would have to re-engineer yelp
<mpt> Such as?
<venda> for example I do not plan reading anything except html help
<venda> yelp loads stuff for many formats
<mpt> So what about all those apps that currently have their help written in DocBook?
<venda> however, I do plan enabling others to include modules for other formats
<mpt> And what about man pages?
<venda> Docbook transforms to HTML
<venda> yelp tries to read it and tranform it to html
<mpt> Yes, but who's going to do that for a third-party app?
<jsgotangco> similar to what khelp does?
<venda> that is up to the community
<venda> I will take a kpart type of approach to it
<mpt> If Ubuntu uses this VendaHelp and everyone else uses yelp, and some third-party app supplies its help in DocBook, where does the conversion happen?
<venda> AT present all GNOME stuff is in Yelp
<venda> I am focused on ubuntu-docs
<venda> we do not package xml in ubuntu
<venda> we package html
<mpt> If some *third-party* app (i.e. not part of Gnome) supplies its help in DocBook, where does the conversion happen?
<venda> but uses can do apt-get install ubuntu-docs-src
<jsgotangco> (i always thought we packaged in xml)
<venda> jsgotangco: at present yes
<venda> mpt: they will transform to html when they build their apps
<venda> xml is not for presentation layer
<mpt> So are there no third-party apps that currently provide their help in DocBook format?
<mpt> I thought yelp did the conversion on-the-fly
<venda> part of the reason help opens so slow is that it is trying to transformations from xml to html
<mpt> Could that be solved by making the home page HTML instead?
<venda> In kde the help is html
<jsgotangco> yelp relies on scrollkeeper to catalog what xml is included
<venda> it is only gnome that tries the fly approach
<mpt> jsgotangco: And I *wish* I could figure out how :-)
<venda> mpt: yes home page for ubuntu-docs is html easy to custom
<mpt> I'd like to edit the help, but no-one can tell me how to do it
<mpt> except saying "it's not easy"
<venda> mpt: exactly
<mpt> which I've been told several times already :-P
<venda> I want it more open and custom
<venda> for example the the formatting an dlayout in yelp is stunnted by yelp
<venda> mpt: with this system you can do what you like
<mpt> I think stunted formatting is good
<venda> nah
<venda> you need freedom and control
<venda> for example
<mpt> No, really, you don't
<venda> I would like to have a pick list of related topic and task on the right
<venda> in yelp that is not possible
<mpt> Even in the Apple Help viewer when it only supported HTML 3.2, instead of using the standard help font, third-party apps often used whatever font the author of the app looked cool
<mpt> It was a PITA
<venda> in yelp I cant even change the color of headings
<mpt> That's a feature
<venda> well we do our stuff using the same style
<venda> what other do in up to them
<venda> our focus is smaller that other tools
<mpt> which is exactly the problem
<venda> we just want an easy to use faster tool for our stuff
<venda> others can use it if they want
<venda> btw the help system should also be accessible on a web site
<venda> not the help viewer
<venda> just the content
<venda> I do not envision everyone using this viewer
<venda> and do not exclude the ability to use yelp or khelpcenter to view the ubuntu-docs
<venda> the content of the help system must be portable across apps
<venda> the idea is just to be able to improve what we can do for ubuntu
<venda> the same way gome and kde worry only about what they can do for their projects
<venda> if others want to use it, then they should be free to do so
<mpt> XHTML Basic with no style sheets would be a reasonable language for help
<venda> mpt: for you a major immediate plus is that you will be able to rapidly custom the home page and anything else
<venda> yes and no
<venda> html + css is more flexible
<venda> faster too
<venda> but technically you are right'
<mpt> venda: This is where we disagree. I think that in help, flexibility is not a good thing.
<venda> well take yourself as an example
<venda> you are frustrated by yelp/scrollkeeper
<mpt> All help pages, no whether they come from Gnome or KDE or Adobe, should use the same fonts, the same colors, the same margins, the same padding.
<venda> in an ideal world
<mpt> Authors shouldn't be able to muck around with the formatting.
<venda> yes
<venda> mpt: start small
<mpt> Because if they can, they will.
<venda> in docbook they see no formatting
<venda> the xsl transformation takes care of that
<mpt> good
<venda> but I want to stay topical for now
<venda> I dont want to change the world
<venda> Shaum tried that and he had huge problems
<mpt> Who's Shaum?
<venda> Sorry Shaun M from GNOME
<Burgundavia> shaun
<venda> If all ubuntu-docs look the same and we have control over the look and feel, I am a happy camper
<jsgotangco> how about the other docs?
<jsgotangco> (from scrollkeeper)
<venda> if others want to adopt it, they're welcome
<venda> jsgotangco: use yelp
<mpt> er
<mpt> venda: So Ubuntu should have *two* help viewers?
<venda> we will still register with srollkeeper for compatability reasons
<venda> gnome has one and so do we
<venda> at first
<mpt> "gnome"? What's this "gnome"?</aunttillie>
<venda> as and when people create plugins other things can be done
<venda> other formats suppoerted
<venda> like man
<jsgotangco> (i dont like the concept of 2 help viewers)
<venda> but I dont want to go there for now, just leave it open to possability
<mpt> Well
<jsgotangco> (you support 2 apps as well)
<venda> jsgotangco: your web browser is ff yes
<mpt> venda: I'm not the world's expert on how jdub and mdz and co. think, but I find it difficult to imagine them putting multiple help viewers into Ubuntu when they have the choice not to.
<venda> please click help
<venda> mpt there must be about six of them installed today
<venda> just look at the firefox help, opera help, OOo help
<mpt> venda: Yes, but that's not through choice, that's through upstreams being silly.
<venda> etc
<venda> no upstreams not silly
<venda> they just want control not given by yelp
<mpt> And they don't have the choice
<venda> there is a tradeoff alwasy
<mpt> because they don't have the time to spend on putting the Firefox and OOo help into yelp.
<venda> not true
<venda> there help is xml
<venda> and they just need to install it
<venda> yelp will do the rest
<venda> Hmm, maybe we can just us ethe ff helpviewer
* mpt just opened the Firefox help viewer
<mpt> it's crack
<venda> it is more or less what I had inmind
<mpt> Opera isn't in main
<venda> mpt: crack = good :-)
<mpt> It's a classic case of programmers overestimating how much people care about a particular window
<venda> so is it good or bad
<mpt> It's far too large, and too complex, and oh yes, let's have a Customize Toolbar dialog! For a help viewer!
<mpt> Because I want to spend time deciding which buttons should appear in a HELP WINDOW
<venda> we can dumb it down
* mpt is cranky today :-)
<venda> mpt is there any winning with you?
<mpt> Sure, add search to yelp and I'll be your fan for life ;-)
<venda> but you say yelp is too slow
<venda> so what do you want
<mpt> Yes, but that's slightly less of a problem than it not having search
<venda> so why put so much focus on the slow issue earlier
<mpt> Or, MUCH easier, give me step-by-step instructions on how to change yelp's front page
<venda> can't
<mpt> I wasn't focusing on the slow issue in particular, I just had to ask it a few times because you thought I was talking about something else
<venda> take your pic custom or no custom, fast or slow
<venda> everything has some trade-off
<mpt> sure
<venda> ok must go now. take care
* mpt cries
<jsgotangco> gyahh
<mpt> That was a boil-the-ocean strategy
<mdke> morning
<mdke> whats all this crying?
<mpt> mdke: Oh, um, Sean wants to write a help viewer from scratch, to be used *alongside* yelp
<mdke> well get to it
<mdke> :p
<mdke> mpt, what do you favour?
<mdke> are there any minimal browsers that might work?
<mpt> Any help viewer would have to display help in the formats that it is currently supplied in
<mdke> mpt, you mean the gnome docs?
<mpt> which includes DocBook and man pages, neither of which Sean's would read
<mdke> right
<mpt> I'm talking about all the help shipped with Ubuntu
<mdke> i guess the problem is finding a solution for both ubuntu and kubuntu
<mdke> given that kubuntu doesn't use yelp
<mpt> What I favour is decreasing the number of help viewers
<mpt> Preferably to the one help viewer that sucks the least
<jsgotangco> same here
<mdke> yes of course thats a good idea
<mdke> and what sucks the least?
<jsgotangco> kubuntu uses khtml alredy
<mdke> for man pages too?
<mpt> then getting Gimp to use it, then getting Firefox to use it, then getting OpenOffice to use it
<jsgotangco> yep
<mpt> (I'm assuminug that's in ascending order of difficulty)
<jsgotangco> scrollkeeper even
<jsgotangco> but its a mess
<mdke> i love the idea of OOo
<mdke> a 30 second startup for getting help ;)
<jsgotangco> monodoc is faster
<mdke> would it work for all docs, in kubuntu and ubuntu?
<mpt> I have no idea
<jsgotangco> i dont think it was designed as a general help viewer
<jsgotangco> just for mono at the moment
<mdke> i guess it will be difficult to move away from yelp given that gnome uses it
<jsgotangco> yelp isnt so bad it just needs some love
<jsgotangco> heh
<mdke> but the faqguide as sean has converted it is already unusable in yelp
<mdke> and that will probably be the most used doc for breezy if it goes in
<mpt> woohoo
<mdke> quite
<mpt> Who came up with the name "faq guide" anyway?
<mdke> mpt, no idea
<jsgotangco> no idea
<mpt> You know
<jsgotangco> must be the first authors
<jsgotangco> (sean, enrico, et al)
<mpt> I should bind my hands today so I can't type
<mdke> we can change the name fairly easily, thats not the big deal
<mpt> coz I'm cranky
<mdke> mpt, time of the month huh
<mpt> And when I'm cranky, BAD CRAP happens
* mdke pats
<mpt> moo
* jsgotangco just had 3 bottles of green tea
<mdke> jsgotangco, you are so addicted to that stuff
<jsgotangco> yeah tea rules
<mdke> just inject the caffeine directly
<mdke> (does green tea have caffeine?)
<jsgotangco> LOADS
<jsgotangco> higher than coffee
<mdke> in italian they call it teaine ;)
<mdke> given that coffee is "caffe"
<mdke> they figured that caffeine comes from the word coffee
<jsgotangco> we even have tofu drinks here
<mdke> ugh
<jsgotangco> its delicious
<jsgotangco> tea + tofu = awesome
<mdke> ugh
<jsgotangco> i dont blame you
<mdke> the good thing about using html for the docs would be that they could be published online/offline in the same way
<mdke> if you think about it, having ubuntu docs and then gnome/kde docs in a different help viewer isn't the end of the world
<mdke> mpt, i remember that you were saying that the books should be published as pdf
<mpt> yup
<jsgotangco> ugghh no one reads in pdf
<mdke> i do
<mpt> for print use
<mdke> i use pdf for whatever I write
<jsgotangco> for print no problem
<mpt> because the books aren't suitable for on-screen reading
<mdke> mpt, so all the Ubuntu docs are books atm
<mpt> no matter *what* medium they're in
<mpt> Yes
<jsgotangco> id consider them as books too
<mpt> Well observed :-)
<jsgotangco> (the way they are formatted)
<mpt> and the way they're written
<mdke> sure
<mdke> except maybe the faqguide
<mdke> which will shortly be renamed
<mdke> ;)
<mpt> Currently we have plenty of reference material, but none of what I'd categorize as onscreen help.
<mdke> for breezy we should also have some howtos from the wiki
* mdke chomps on toast
<jsgotangco> well i gotta go
<jsgotangco> i have a diner to attend
<jsgotangco> laterz
<mdke> those vnc2swf videos are pretty cool
<mdke> have fun jsgotangco 
<jsgotangco> i just installed 2 ubuntu servrs today
<jsgotangco> man ubuntu as a server is awesome
<mdke> thats cool
<mdke> i will try breezy this weekend
<jsgotangco> id rather not yet when x is borked
<mdke> jsgotangco, did you see LaptopTestingTeam btw?
<jsgotangco> not yet
<mdke> i think its fixed now
<jsgotangco> what's that about
<mdke> jsgotangco, check it out
<jsgotangco> wiki?
<mdke> yes
<mdke> free laptops for testing breezy
<jsgotangco> yeah i know that
<jsgotangco> we discussed that in UDU
<mdke> well put your name down
<jsgotangco> sabdfl was willing to invest
<mdke> that guy is a genius
<mdke> its a brilliant idea
<mdke> ubuntu is gonna rock laptops
<jsgotangco> hmmm
<jsgotangco> that list is already long
<jsgotangco> hehe
<mdke> lots of people on the list haven't done any work
<mdke> you have
<jsgotangco> i know
<jsgotangco> if you check the udu laptop wiki me and ogra are listed
<jsgotangco> heh
<mdke> well there ya go
<mdke> get your name down
<jsgotangco> ill put mine beside you hehe (cheater)
<mdke> k
<mdke> a guy in #ubuntu-it said breezy was real fast
<mdke> thats why i'm gonna try it
<mdke> that, and the fact that I have time on my hands
<mdke> my course finishes friday
<jsgotangco> hmm wonder why dholbach didnt list himself
<jsgotangco> or even ajmitch
<mdke> guess they have flair laptops already
<jsgotangco> nahhh you should see ajmitch's laptop
<jsgotangco> hehe
<mdke> hmm
<jsgotangco> or worse, even mako's
<jsgotangco> hehe
<mdke> no way?
<mdke> he has a p1 166 mmx?
<jsgotangco> well a P2
<mdke> my gf has one of those
<jsgotangco> i still have a p3 laptop
<jsgotangco> well i gotta go my wife is gonna kill me if im late
<mdke> ok have fun
<jsgotangco> listed myself already
<mdke> cool
<mdke> dholbach is third on the list btw
<jsgotangco> mjg59 is doing swell work on laptops
<jsgotangco> later
<mdke> bye
<Kinnison> Hola
<venda> Burgundavia: bounties for docs that's a first :-)
<venda> Burgundavia: I wonder if they will accept my Lenya solution?
<Burgundavia> they might
<venda> Hmmm, I wonder ...
<abelli> Kinnison: ding dong dang
<Kinnison> abelli: hi
<mkde> evening
<venda> elo
<Burgundavia> venda, someone has posting something to the gnome list as well
<venda> yes, dorvak or something like that
<mkde> venda, any reply on the ubuntuguide?
<abelli> venda, domo arigato.
<_venda> ouch that hurt
<abelli> _venda: re-"domo arigato".
<_venda> hello abelli
<mkde> venda, any reply on the ubuntuguide?
<venda> mdke: no
<venda> gotta love wget
<venda> download a whole web site in minutes
<carthik> venda, and mp3s, in some cases :)
<carthik> I love netjuke users, who allow downloads, but I am evil.
* venda does not download music, but undrstands
<venda> 590 files in 2.07 secs
<venda> good night ppl
<abelli> ciao a tutti
<abelli> buona notte
<mdke> Kinnison, is your dad called norman?
<Kinnison> Hep
<Kinnison> Y
<mdke> awesome
<mdke> he posted to the ubuntu-uk list this evening
<mdke> i need to convert my parents
<Kinnison> Cool
#ubuntu-doc 2005-06-09
<jsgotangco> morning
<jsgotangco> hey jeff congrats on the style guide
<jeffsch> thanks eh
<jeffsch> it's only a beginning though
<jsgotangco> its a good start
<mvirkkil> froud-away: How's the e-mail coming along? ;)
<jsgotangco> hi
<venda> African Greetings
<jsgotangco> hello
<venda> jsgotangco: morn
<venda> people need to be aware of a license problem
<venda> I discussed this with mako yesterday
<venda> if you find a doc on the internet and want t o use it in whole or part within svn
<venda> you must get agreement from the copyright holder to use it in svn and relicense it under our licenses
<venda> if the copyright holder declines
<venda> then we can only keep the doc in svn under terms of the copyright holders license
<venda> WE MAY NOT RELICENSE
<venda> WE MAY NOT MERGE OR USE IT UNDER A DUAL OR OPPOSITE LICENSE
<jsgotangco> i thought about this as well 2 days ago
<venda> :-) great minds
<venda> So if something is GPL, GFDL, or CC-BY-?? we can use it in svn but must have permission to change the licensing
<venda> Thanks to Gua, author of ubuntuguide.org, for allowing us to use the docteam licenses on the FAQGuide
<jsgotangco> because i saw this how to create a deb tutorial by zonker and i thought it would be a great addition
<venda> s/Gua/Chua
<jsgotangco> but then even if its gpl, gfdl i still have to get permission of sorts
<venda> yes
<jsgotangco> (i transformed it to docbook already but haven't uploaded for obvious reasons)
<venda> we can use it, but it without copyright holder permission to relicense, we must keep the original license
<venda> This is why I have asked Chua for permission to relicense
<venda> he has agreed to this
<jsgotangco> i hope he knew what it meant
<venda> so there are no more lic issues on FAQGuide
<venda> See the list
<venda> Hmm, are messages going through to the list?
<robitaille> http://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-doc/2005-June/002436.html  
<robitaille> 3 messages, 2 from you and from from him.  Are these the only ones?
<venda> Hmm, perhaps ther eis some holdup enroute to co.za
<venda> thanks robitaille 
<venda> new matter, I have not heard from Hendrik with regard to help.ubuntu.com and docteam.ubuntu.com
<jsgotangco> hmmm that google bounty was spot-on with our lenya plans
<venda> yes, I have the solution, I just dont think they will accept a java based solution
<venda> whatever they decide perhaps we can use the same solution they will use
<jsgotangco> i never thought it would be an impediment
<jsgotangco> (java that is)
<venda> shouldn't be
<venda> but people are funny
<venda> jsgotangco: did they guy on kubuntu guide get back to you?
<jsgotangco> venda, you should shoot me for i haven't even emailed him yet
<jsgotangco> (i will though now)
<venda> No no I will do it now
<jsgotangco> ok sorry about that
<jsgotangco> umm venda i just sent him an email
<venda> oh well now he has two requests :-)
<venda> thanks jsgotangco 
<venda> ppl we have the outline of our styleguide in svn
<venda> would be cool if people have ideas/preferences that they should work on it
<jsgotangco> ill hack on it later
<jsgotangco> i've been playing around with hoary as a server
<jsgotangco> i think its time to create a server guide too
<jsgotangco> ours is currently empty/non-existent
<venda> that should be in the admin guide :-)
<jsgotangco> venda, its not that much either
<venda> yes, but we have too much to focus on
<jsgotangco> ill just hack it up a bit
<venda> sure, it s open
<jsgotangco> i've already have 10 pages of notes in my hipster pda
<venda> who knows we may release one by brezzy
<venda> he he
<venda> ok must go get dressed
<venda> and start work
<jsgotangco> you shouldnt really chat in your boxers
<venda> why not?
<venda> and who said I am wearing boxers
<jsgotangco> or chat naked even
* venda notes jsgotangco has a vivid imagination
<venda> It's going into winter here
<venda> so no way I can do either of the above
<jsgotangco> hmm winter
<venda> yes, it does get cold in johannesburg :-)
<jsgotangco> and the rainy season is almost here
<venda> brrr
<venda> we have our rain in the summer
<jsgotangco> rain in summer?
<jsgotangco> summer here is like 35C
<venda> Hmmm my kinda place
<venda> hot hot hot
<jsgotangco> hot is not so bad but humidity is bad bad bad
<venda> hot slippery nights :-) yes
<jsgotangco> gyah
<venda> Slip-sliding away ...
<venda> Ok c ya
<jsgotangco> salut
<froud> salut
* froud is dressed now so it is safe to speak :-)
<jsgotangco> you can bug Burgundavia now
<froud> about what?
<jsgotangco> docteam work heh
<mvirkkil> froud: hi
<froud> hi
<mvirkkil> froud: Did you ever send me that email?
<froud> no
<mvirkkil> froud: ok
<mvirkkil> :)
<froud> mvirkkil: other than the talk we had on channel I did not hae anything new
<mvirkkil> froud: I'd still like info about the gpg keys and other info I need to send to someone to get svn access.
<froud> Oh right
<froud> just make yourself some pgp keys and send the public one to elmo
<jsgotangco> yeah
<mvirkkil> elmo?
<jsgotangco> james troup
<froud> jsgotangco: you got his email?
<jsgotangco> hold on
<froud> elmo takes care of canonical servers
* froud ticles Burgundavia to do the same
<jsgotangco> james@nocrew.org
<mvirkkil> Ok, so I send elmo my gpg public key. Any other info?
<jsgotangco> when elmo respons, he'll send your svn account
<jsgotangco> oh
<jsgotangco> send your preferred username
<mvirkkil> ok. I have no imagination so it's mvirkkil
<mvirkkil> :)
<jsgotangco> heh
<jsgotangco> i have this wordpress fetish lately
<froud> wordpress
<jsgotangco> you dont like it?
<froud> URL know nothing of it
<mvirkkil> The OpenDocument specd is 700+ pages. Makes docbook seem simple.
<jsgotangco> www.wordpress.org its nothing special, just a popular blog tool
<froud> mvirkkil: URL
<froud> jsgotangco: I dont blog
<mvirkkil> http://www.oasis-open.org/committees/download.php/12572/OpenDocument-v1.0-os.pdf
<jsgotangco> froud, i dont either but i just use it for simple publishing
<abelli> jsgotangco: elitejournal is even better .. its ruby.
<froud> mvirkkil: whew its a big one
<mvirkkil> froud: Agreed.
<jsgotangco> abelli, will look i know nothing about ruby though
<froud> mvirkkil: Oh dude OpenDocument is hectic sh1t
<abelli> jsgotangco: bad bad bad daniel san.
<abelli> froud: did you study in Oxford?
<abelli> what subject? literature?
<froud> I'll stay with Docbook for now, but I am also playing with DITA
<froud> Oxford no
<mvirkkil> froud: It's xml, which is nice and easy to parse.
<froud> yes, but the syntax
<mvirkkil> froud: But a bitch when it comes to accessing.
<froud> try XPath that
<mvirkkil> froud: Like optimizing accesses of a large document is a pain, since it'
<mvirkkil> it's basically random access, and disk io is _slow_
<mvirkkil> froud: I mean accessing on a lower level.
<froud> mvirkkil: how low - DOM
<mvirkkil> froud: xpath basically requires the whole thing to be in memory, which can be costly with documents that include others with xinclude.
<froud> yep
<mvirkkil> froud: I'm talking about basically if I have a path to an element I need to load the whole freaking document to get to it.
<mvirkkil> of course using pull parsers and sax alleviates the problem, but you don't get the dom niceness
<mvirkkil> and then string parsing (which xml is like all about) is slow...
<froud> agreed
<froud> but then I dont think it was designed with that in mind
<mvirkkil> the "binary" xml sounds nice because of the speed stuff. Making something that will easily be translated to xml and back to binary, will be fast to access and small compared to xml documents, but yet easy to create parsers for and easy to make human readable...
<mvirkkil> currently OpenDocument just compresses the whole thing, so loading and saving is slow. Binary xml would make that fast(er).
<froud> yes speed is good and so is the round trip
<mvirkkil> But people cringe when they hear about binary formats.
<froud> but I would stll like it open in xml
<mvirkkil> Yeah, that would be possible.
<mdke> morn
<mvirkkil> the idea is that binary xml (i'll call it bxml) would have standard tools for convertnig back and forth to riginal regular xml.
<mvirkkil> mdke: i
<mvirkkil> mdke: hi, even
<mdke> hiya
<mvirkkil> froud: http://www.w3.org/XML/Binary/
<mvirkkil> froud: But I'm not holding my breath.
<mdke> froud, good news on the ubuntuguide
<mdke> nice work
<jsgotangco> mdke, hello
<mdke> heya dude
<jsgotangco> i had a date with this nice singaporean
<jsgotangco> i mean dinner
<mdke> eh?
<mdke> aren't you married
<jsgotangco> i am
<abelli> jsgotangco: fan"tit"astic ..
<abelli> this man has style.
* mdke nods
<jsgotangco> it was potential business
<abelli> obviously .. you did it for the Mankind .
<abelli> we all know this.
<jsgotangco> hah
<abelli> s/the//
<jsgotangco> i heard italians fare better :P
<abelli> mdke: it's your turn ..
<abelli> please help!.
<mdke> abelli, *grins*
<mdke> i wish someone would ask me
<jsgotangco> i had this friend that was constantly harrassed by italian men when she stayed in florence for business
* mdke nods
<mdke> glad to be a man
<jsgotangco> 2nd day and they proposed to her
<jsgotangco> heh
<mdke> italians are dangerous
<abelli> she must be attractive ..
<mdke> *looks at abelli*
<jsgotangco> abelli, she is
<mdke> i've noticed that italian girls really know how to handle men
<abelli> jsgotangco: HELO jsgotangco 
<jsgotangco> HAHA
<abelli> jsgotangco: Rtrv singaporean's mobile
<jsgotangco> mdke, you should have told me that years ago
<mdke> jsgotangco, in the sense of defending themselves ;)
<jsgotangco> ouch
<abelli> jsgotangco: waiting for incoming connection..
<jsgotangco> abelli, go here or somewhere in thailand, you'll surely score
<mdke> thai girls are really good lookin
<abelli> jsgotangco: thailiand is something infamous ..
<jsgotangco> mdke, make sure they are girls
* mdke nods
<mdke> always double check
<jsgotangco> i almost got duped baack then
<mdke> *laughs*
<abelli> jsgotangco: the english geezer inside matt is wrestling to pop out..
<mdke> you've certainly been around
<jsgotangco> don't supress the force heh
<abelli> english girls .. expecially mixes like (spanish, english) .. or (asian, english) ..
<abelli> well .. then here they come .. Essex Girls ..
<abelli> famous all over the world .. for their devotion to charity.
<jsgotangco> eh?
<jsgotangco> you sure they're not nuns
<jsgotangco> being stationed in rome
<mdke> they are easy ladies
<mdke> thats the stereotype anyway
<jsgotangco> hmm
<jsgotangco> ive missed a lot then
<jsgotangco> mdke, you taking up law right
<abelli> and an italian girl too.
<jsgotangco> oh i see yo have an italian job as well
<abelli> well that one has already been taken up.
<mdke> law yeah
<mdke> sadly i don't have an italian job yet
<jsgotangco> mdke, what you planning to specialize?
<mdke> well next year i will be doing commercial law
<mdke> maybe some european law i hope
<mdke> after that, who knows
<jsgotangco> i heard immigration lawyers earn a lot (dunno if its shady though)
<abelli> caffe' nero in High Gate.
<mdke> hmm
<mdke> immigration is not famous for the cash
<abelli> [Matt in 2 yrs time] : <<Do you Want Chocolate on Top, Sir?>>
<mdke> *laughs*
<mdke> i'll be in cafe nero, roma
* mdke crosses fingers
<jsgotangco> whats famous for the cash?
<froud> mdke: yes good news, lets hope its the same for kubuntu
<abelli> businesses in thai.
<abelli> froud: .. please.
<froud> abelli: please ... what?
<mdke> froud, i wanted to say, those emails were phrases exactly right
<abelli> .. u were supposed to use SUSE ..
<froud> the benfit of being a writer
<mdke> phrases/phrased
<froud> abelli: I still do I am on SuSE now
<mdke> pah
<mdke> suse shmuse
<abelli> mdke: attack.
<froud> but I also have Unbuntu and Kubuntu
* mdke nods
<mdke> i'll take the left flank
<abelli> mdke: dehihio ..
<froud> in fact Kubuntu runs on my lap top
<jsgotangco> mdke, what are you talkinb about
<mdke> froud, its too late now to try and make excuses
<mdke> jsgotangco, when?
<jsgotangco> the phrases
<froud> SuSE rocks dude
<mdke> i've heard that
<abelli> froud dont keep your lap top on top_of_your_lap becauses it might give you problem with fertility.
<mdke> but its not free
<jsgotangco> abelli, heat hehehe
<Burgundavia> abelli, he already has kids, he may not want more
<mdke> jsgotangco, frouds emails to the guide authors
<mdke> i felt they were very tactful
<froud> abelli: I dont mind, I already have three children :-)
<jsgotangco> i'd like 10 kids if i can afford to
<abelli> Burgundavia: you've never seen his Lady.
<jsgotangco> (my grandmother had 12)
<froud> out the stretch marks
<jsgotangco> froud, in the page, is that your wife?
<froud> yes
<jsgotangco> WOW
<froud> thanks, I think so too
<froud> pity she married an ugly gitlike me hehe
<mdke> url immediately
<abelli> jsgotangco: it's an order :)
<jsgotangco> i dunno about the wardrobe though
<jsgotangco> (is that some sort of traditional joburg dress)
<froud> http://www.inwords.co.za/management.html
* mdke whistles
<froud> why leather jacket with yellow shawl
<jsgotangco> oh its a shawl
<froud> OK I must get back to work
<abelli> froud: when did you change the website?
<abelli> froud-away: ^^
<froud-away> a few weeks back edits etc welcome
<abelli> ok ciao.
<jsgotangco> mdke, show me pics of your italian friends
<jsgotangco> heh
<mdke> hmm
<mdke> tricky one
<jsgotangco> ok i'll just google matthew east and see
<abelli> jsgotangco: deep throath producer.
<jsgotangco> haha
<mdke> i don't have many good ones
<jsgotangco> hmm at least the Matthew East I know is 2nd entry in google
<mdke> http://mdke.mine.nu/images/Venezia/IMAG0052.jpg
<mdke> rock
<mdke> 2nd?
<mdke> 3rd
<mdke> not bad
<jsgotangco> 2nd not bad hehehe its Ubuntu even
<jsgotangco> the first one is a news reporter heh
<mdke> http://mdke.mine.nu/images/Venezia/IMAG0026.jpg
<mdke> that is my gf and her sister with her husband
<jsgotangco> hmm
<abelli> jsgotangco: where's your asian pearl.
<mdke> good point
<abelli> ..Perl.
<jsgotangco> hmmm
<jsgotangco> i dont post pics that much
<jsgotangco> hmm
<jsgotangco> that can be arranged
<abelli> in how many man-years?
<jsgotangco> haha hold on
<jsgotangco> i got some pics at flickr
<jsgotangco> http://www.flickr.com/photos/jsgotangco/5166461/in/set-367801/
<jsgotangco> thats my wife and child
<mdke> can anyone remember the url for chris haas's site?
<mdke> aw they are gorgeous
<abelli> workaroun.org?
<abelli> *d
<mdke> abelli, nice one
<jsgotangco> my wife used to be a shampoo model
<abelli> well have to wait a little for gotango junior
<jsgotangco> kids are expensive
<abelli> a sparc even more ..
<mdke> abelli, bingo, thanks
<jsgotangco> sparcs are ok but kids are pretty unstable
<mdke> my god
<mdke> your daughter is so cute its unbelievable
<mdke> congrats
<abelli> mdke: hey .. slow down ..
<jsgotangco> heh, yeah a lot of people say that
<jsgotangco> let me upload another one
<mdke> <-- shower
<abelli> mdke: buona doccia, non intasare i tubi.
<abelli> mdke: are you in england?
<Burgundavia> bah kids
<abelli> mdke: have you got a bidet in your bathroom?
<abelli> Burgundavia: everyone is/has been a kid .. and has a kiddish part.
<jsgotangco> http://www.flickr.com/photos/jsgotangco/
<jsgotangco> http://www.flickr.com/photos/jsgotangco/17037106/
<abelli> which one is you ..
<abelli> and who is that blue-shirted Perl of the pacific?
<abelli> jsgotangco: ^^
<jsgotangco> hahaha
<jsgotangco> the italian way of describint
<Burgundavia> abelli, right, I just don't want any
<jsgotangco> abelli, i hope you're not talking about the guy in blue
<abelli> jsgotangco: not .. just a little on the right.
<jsgotangco> that's anna
<mdke> abelli, no bidet
<mdke> = england
<abelli> jsgotangco: that's .. good.
<abelli> mdke: no bidet, no civilization.
<mdke> that is true to a certain extent
<mdke> when I get a house, it will have one
* jsgotangco wonders where are his girl friends pics
<abelli> mdke: have you seen anna?
<mdke> yeah
<mdke> which is jsgotangco 
<jsgotangco> the one in yellow
<mdke> :D
<mdke> thank god
<jsgotangco> what were you expecting :P
<jsgotangco> hehe
<mdke> if it had been that lady in the middle in red i would have been surprised
<jsgotangco> hmm let me post some skin
<jsgotangco> hahaha
<mdke> is that your family?
<mdke> lots of women
<jsgotangco> no just friends of my wife
<jsgotangco> let me post this basketball team at work
<jsgotangco> hehe
<abelli> mdke: if romans said "hic sunt barbares" while in africa they just said "hic sunt leones" there must be a reason.
<mdke> my girlfriend says things like that
<mdke> damn italians
<jsgotangco> http://www.flickr.com/photos/jsgotangco/17038249/
<mdke> always giving it the "we're roman, we're cultured" chat
<mdke> WHOA
<jsgotangco> whoa?
<abelli> gimme a p gimme a t gimme a t gimme a j and gimme those girls ..
<abelli> PTPJ
<jsgotangco> hmm it seems ive lost some photos
<jsgotangco> (those were very good ones)
<mdke> gtg
<mdke> catch you all later
<abelli> mdke: that's not completely true that italians are all cultured .. normans  have been around for some time .. and 
<jsgotangco> later
<abelli> and they left some signs ..
<abelli> mdke: ciao.
<jsgotangco> what does hic sunt leones mean
<abelli> hic := here
<abelli> sunt := are
<jsgotangco> here are lions?
<abelli> leones := lions ..
<abelli> .. yeah , there are lions.
<jsgotangco> what does the statement mean?
<jsgotangco> lions are cultured?
<jsgotangco> italians = lions
<jsgotangco> ?
<abelli> no ..
<abelli> in roman maps .. where now we write Africa .. there was written "hic sunt leones"
<jsgotangco> ahh
<abelli> and in northern england i supposed they wrote "hic sunt barbares" .. it was a joke.
<jsgotangco> haha
<abelli> barbares := barbarians.
<abelli> ok im off ..
<abelli> ciao a tutti
<abelli> jsgotangco: ciao
<jsgotangco> i assume italian had a lot of latin roots
<jsgotangco> ciao
<abelli> si si ..
<abelli> well english, spanish, french, .. too
<abelli> bonne vie ciao
<jsgotangco> hi enrico 
<enrico> jsgotangco: si
<enrico> jsgotangco: hi
<jsgotangco> brb
<Kinnison> Morning
<swe3tdave> Morning
<swe3tdave> anyone as some news about ubuntuguide.org translation?
<swe3tdave> i was able to make html2pot working last night but then pot2html is giving so many error its impossible to use..
<George^Deka> hi all
<George^Deka> hi enrico
<enrico> George^Deka: hi
<George^Deka> thought u were dead, j/k just no activity on the mailing list, my exams are finishing up soon, so ill have a bit more time, so busy with uni and work
<enrico> George^Deka: I'm busy with a full-time job until the end of the year
<George^Deka> cool, no longer cannonical ?
<froud> why is ubuntu brochue an empty svg file?
<froud> Ah ha I see
<froud> Burgundavia: why can I select the background page in your brochure?
<froud> s/can/can't
<Burgundavia> I locked it
<Burgundavia> and I have no idea how to unlock it
<froud> oops
<froud> it's in svn
<froud> Burgundavia: OK fixed it
<froud> Burgundavia: Hmm but the ubuntu logo is still stuck
<froud> Burgundavia: geeze dude that one is a bugger. How did you get that logo in
<froud> Burgundavia: I can't even select it when I do Select All
<froud> :-)
<froud> question in FAQ Guide do we have to talk about gedit
<froud> because if we just explain vi then we can use it for Kubuntu version too
<froud> vi being common would be an easier choice and avoid extra profiling
<froud> however, we could also give a note that vi can be replace by gedit or kate, depending on the distro you run
<swe3tdave> could we explain the 3? and let the user choose? :P
<froud> we could but this is a faq not a manual and we want to get an ubuntu version and a kubuntu version
<froud> if we explain all three then each time either of the books talk about either gedit or kate we have to insert a profile
<froud> just thought it faster and less overhead to use vi
<froud> or ViM
<swe3tdave> ok, i'm still very new here.. but i think vi is a good choice.. ViM would be more easy..
<froud> yes vim is easier
<froud> swe3tdave: the idea is to manage both books in one xml file and transform k and g versions from the same file
<swe3tdave> froud: ok, im still trying to figure out how docbook, xml, and all those tools works.. but i think its a good idea.. :)
<froud> this way common areas are not duplicated between files, instead they are shared as common
<froud> swe3tdave: do you need help with getting setup
<mvirkkil> finally mailed elmo. 
<froud> mvirkkil: yay!!!
<swe3tdave> so it will also be more easy with translation.. :)
<froud> exactly
<froud> and with maintenance
<mvirkkil> froud = the king of exaggeration
<mvirkkil> ;)
<froud> huh
<mvirkkil> froud: But thanks for making me feel welcome.
* froud slaps mvirkkil with a wet fish
<mvirkkil> I was referencing the "yay!!!" 
* mvirkkil takes the fish, fries and eats it. mvirkkil likes fish.
<swe3tdave> froud: maybe, im not sure yet.. heheh
* froud takes out packet of salt and vin chips
* mvirkkil eats frouds chips. 
<froud> swe3tdave: ok well shout if you need help
* mvirkkil is a bit hungry
* mvirkkil wonders if froud got anything else to eat?
<swe3tdave> froud: thx
* froud gets a naughty smile on his face and reaches for his zipper
<froud> swe3tdave: no prob, you going to work on the docs
* mvirkkil slaps froud with the fishbone
<froud> you'll need to checkout the source
<froud> ouch!
<froud> svn co https://docteam.ubuntu.com/repos/trunk
<swe3tdave> froud: i would like to, i'm still trying to figure out that stylesheet thingny.. 
<froud> no need to
<froud> first focus on the xml
<froud> tackle xsl later dude
<froud> have you installed a toolchain?
<swe3tdave> no.. what is a toolchain?
<froud> Hmm
<froud> ok
<froud> you need some things installed to work with docbook
<froud> sudo apt-get install xsltproc
<froud> sudo apt-get install docbook
<froud> sudo apt-get install docbook-xsl
<swe3tdave> ok, i already installed these..
<froud> sudo apt-get install poxml (from kdesdk)
<swe3tdave> this one too
<froud> then subversion
<froud> sudo apt-get install subversion
<swe3tdave> this one too..
<froud> OK so you have a toolchain
<froud> what editor r you using?
<swe3tdave> gedit
<froud> OK
<froud> so you can checkout the doc srcs
<froud> and hack them with that
<froud> don't worry about the xsl, we will put that in place for you
<froud> all you will need to do in future is do make book'
<froud> and it will chug away and create the presentation formats
<mpt> http://toastytech.com/guis/osx13help.png
<froud> mpt: take it you dontlike my picture
<mpt> What picture's that?
<froud> the one I sent to the list
<mpt> I haven't seen it
* froud remembers it is stuck for moderation
<froud> darn file size was too big
<froud> what's your email
<mpt> four unread messages from you ...
<mpt> mpt at myrealbox dot com
<swe3tdave> ok, thx i had a lot of problem with the doc in the wiki, it was not very helpful..
<froud> which do
<froud> s/do/doc
<froud> mpt: sent
<swe3tdave> DocBook, DocBookReference, etc...
<mpt> froud: I wasn't admiring the help viewer design in that screenshot, I was admiring the content :-)
<froud> mpt: OK
<mpt> hmmm
<froud> mpt: the svg is in svn you can make changes
<mpt> Your design would be very good for a CD-ROM encyclopedia
<mpt> Like a Wikipedia CD, for instance
<froud> or for a help system with lost of books
<mpt> but, you see
<mpt> if I want help
<mpt> I Just Don't Care about "books" :-)
* froud thinks mpt is just difficult 
<mpt> Yeah, I'm a whiny little bugger
<mpt> sorry
<froud> postive input dude
<froud> not negative
<froud> negative is the way to the dark side
<mpt> fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate leads to cries of "RTFM"
<mpt> or something like that
<mpt> ok
* mpt draws a picture
<froud> swe3tdave: Hmmm old pages, if you are new to docbook follow www.docbook.org
<swe3tdave> ok
<froud> if you want to figure out the xsl then www.sagehill.net
<froud> swe3tdave:  if that is not clear call me :-)
<swe3tdave> heheh, ok :)
<froud> going inside, sleep
<froud> c ya
<mpt> dang
<swe3tdave> sleep? its 15h here.. heh.. 
* mpt finishes
<mpt> froud-away: sent
<carthik> Hi 
#ubuntu-doc 2005-06-10
<mkde> anyone around?
<Liz> i just got here
<mkde> hi there liz
<Liz> greetings
<Liz> its been a while since i was in here
<mkde> i was just reading seans email
<Liz> which one?
<mkde> i guess you must have moderated it through just now
<Liz> yes i did
<Liz> there were a few
<Liz> tell me ..do you add them to the ban list when you reject them?
<mkde> no
<Liz> im asking cause this is the first time ive moderated a mailing list
<Liz> and im not sure if im doing it right
<mkde> they just get a message telling them that non members can't post to the list
<mkde> i always tend to discard spam
<mkde> dunno if thats right tho
<Liz> heh
<Liz> i was rejecting them and adding them to the ban list
<mkde> not a bad idea
<Liz> but for spam...discard and ban might be the way to go
* mkde nods
<Liz> should be a wiki i guess about moderating mailing lists
<mkde> i'm sure there is some documentation around
<Liz> we seem to have documentation for everything on ubuntu
<mkde> sometimes the mailman software explains some of the features quite nicely
<Liz> cept how to moderate a list
<Liz> its a bad thing for me
<mkde> no sweat
<Liz> i dont read the documentations
<Liz> unless im truely stuck on something
<mkde> i know what you mean
* mkde yawns
<mkde> i gtg to bed
<mkde> good night
<jsgotangco> morning
<swe3tdave> night.. ;)
<jsgotangco> doh
<jsgotangco> carthik, hello bored student :)
<carthik> hey jsgotangco :)
<jsgotangco> so you're looking for something to do
<jsgotangco> hmmm
<carthik> phonecall :|
<jsgotangco> ok
<carthik> jsgotangco, yes, I was in fact looking at the various wiki pages now
<carthik> andreading through the "about ubuntu" preview picking holes in the document
<carthik> but finding faults may not be the best way to introduce myself, I guess.
<jsgotangco> no its ok, just dive in, thats the FOSS way
<carthik> jsgotangco, if there is something you have in mind that I could do, I'd be glad to know of it :)
<jsgotangco> nobody's stopping you from grabbing what you'd like to contribute
<carthik> so do I file a seperate bug report for each spello/typo or just one grand unified bug report?
<jsgotangco> on the wiki?
<jsgotangco> or on the svn repos
<carthik> the problem with the one big bug report might be that some folks might agree to some of the changes I suggest and not some others...
<carthik> Am I not supposed to make bug-reports at bugzilla?
<carthik> I was reading through the quickguide preview : http://people.ubuntu.com/~mako/docteam/quickguide/
<jsgotangco> no bugzilla is fine
<jsgotangco> hmm
<jsgotangco> you can get the actual xml docs from svn
<carthik> I am familiar with svn
<carthik> but should I generate diffs after every change
<carthik> cause obviously all my changes may not be seen as required or acceptable :)
<jsgotangco> yes then submit to the list and ill patch it or whoever gets it
<carthik> oh, okay
<carthik> a unified diff, then :)
<jsgotangco> http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/DocteamStepByStepRepository
<jsgotangco> would be much better if you patch per doc instead of a grand patch
<carthik> Okay, I will read that doc again before I do anything
<jsgotangco> svg artworks also welcome
<carthik> patch per doc == patch per book, right, for the quickguide ?
<jsgotangco> right its much easier
<carthik> okay cool :)
<carthik> thanks jsgotangco. I'll email the list when I am done.
<jsgotangco> just email the diff and i'll grab it or probably sean
<carthik> today is the day I start working for the ubuntu doc team :)
<jsgotangco> welcome aboard, we're a small crew but deliver big stuff
<jsgotangco> now i go to lunch
<jsgotangco> :)
<jsgotangco> brb
<carthik> oops, that was meant for my friends. Nevermind :)
<jsgotangco> heh
<jsgotangco> :)
<carthik> err, quickguide is not at ubuntu-docs/quick-guide/ - there is a ubuntu-docs/gnome/quick-guide which does not quite appear to be the same as the one in the preview at http://people.ubuntu.com/~mako/docteam/quickguide/ -- what am I missing here?
<jsgotangco> the one in mako's shell is probably old
<jsgotangco> current work is in svn
<carthik> jsgotangco, could you please tell me how to make the svn version
<carthik> I hope /gnome/quickguide/C/quick-guide.xml is the right file, too
<jsgotangco> first things first
<jsgotangco> 1.) did you download the docs from svn?
<carthik> yes
<jsgotangco> ok great now what's the problem then, the svn version is the most recent
<carthik> jsgotangco, how would I create an html version locally? (I'm sorry if that is a dumb question)
<carthik> make qg doesnt work
<jsgotangco> umm what are you trying to do?
<carthik> I am trying to create a readable vhtml version of the checked out quick guide
<carthik> reading and editing the xml file directly is bound to be more difficult for me
<jsgotangco> ok here's a tip you can open the xml file in yelp
<jsgotangco> you can edit the xml file in bluefish which is better
<carthik> okay, but how can i see the html version, if at all
<carthik> just to make sure, as the step-by-step guide says I must
<venda> African Greetings
<jsg> gyah
<jsgotangco> sorry about that :)
<carthik> maybe I started off with the wrong doc :) the quick-guide seems to have been written for 5.04, and I guess will be edited next before the next release....
<carthik> I saw an erroneous "5.40" somewhere and so thought I'd proof it...
<carthik> again, that was from the preview...
<robitaille> jsgotangco,  BeerDump??? 
<jsgotangco> yeah hehe instead of Brain Dump in a BOF, i'd rather drink Beer
<jsgotangco> carthik, just check what's in svn that's the latest always
* jsgotangco is messing around with wordpress
<venda> carthik: previews are outdated at present they should move to docteam.ubuntu.com shortly
<venda> you should checkout svn src and hack that
<jsgotangco> ahhh there's the expert
<jsgotangco> venda, hello
<venda> jsgotangco: hi
<jsgotangco> venda, ill upload something in artwork and check it out
<venda> carthik: we want to upgrade Ubuntu quick-guide for 5.10
<venda> cool
<venda> ideas welcome
<venda> carthik: the problem with that book is that you do not have a stable system on which to document yet
<venda> unless you dont mind your system breaking
<venda> breezy is still very much under heavy devel
<carthik> venda, that is cool - I will go through and fix some non-software specific things...
<carthik> hopefully :)
<jsgotangco> venda, committed, svn up pls
<venda> carthik: sure, improvement welcome
<jsgotangco> and check it now
<jsgotangco> hehe
* robitaille still scared of upgrading his Breezy partition 4 weeks after its last dist-upgrade
<jsgotangco> :)
<jsgotangco> its the best thing i can do for 2 days
<venda> carthik: there are also other docs you can work on if you feel like it
<jsgotangco> (i dont really know how to use inkscape
<carthik> venda, is there one that could better use my time right now?
<jsgotangco> you can help mdke on the wiki
<mvirkkil> Is Henrik Nielsen Omma ever here?
<venda> mvirkkil: over where?
<jsgotangco> i dont think henrik chats
<venda> carthik: well you can take a small section on any book and work on it
<carthik> jsgotangco, is there a wiki-todo somewhere, or some tasks?
<venda> carthik: mdke is working on the user guide
<carthik> venda, cool
<venda> carthik: I know there are a few blank sections that coul duse love
<mvirkkil> venda: In irc
<venda> just take someting small somethng you can do
<venda> mvirkkil: I have not seen him on irc
<mvirkkil> venda: Me neither.
<robitaille> which application is a good to display svg? It seems my nautilus tries to display them using Firefox... and that's does work.
<robitaille> s/does/doesn't/
<jsgotangco> inkscape
<jsgotangco> yeah its pretty dumb
<jsgotangco> but i think EoG should also open SVG
<jsgotangco> inkscape creates the svg
<carthik> venda, I'm sorry if I am annoying or something :) but I can't find userguide or user-guide or any such anywhere in the tree i checked out...
<venda> robitaille: sudo apt-get install inkscape
<jsgotangco> carthik,  /ubuntu-docs/gnome/userguide
<jsgotangco> ok ubuntu-docs is my own dir
<venda> carthik: no problem see gnome/
<jsgotangco> so its just /gnome/userguide
<robitaille> just tried eog on svg;  it works, but the results are not that great looking.  I'll have to install inkscape.
<venda> carthik: there are no stupid questions
<jsgotangco> venda, just stupid answers?
<carthik> jsgotangco, venda, thanks a lot.
<jsgotangco> np just ask away
<venda> robitaille: I think once inkscape is installed then naut will use it as plugin
<carthik> venda, i'v been bugging jsgotangco for quite a while now :)
<jsgotangco> we all start from something
<venda> he he he needs it
* venda hugs jsgotangco 
<jsgotangco> venda, did you see the artwork?
<robitaille> venda,   I didn't have inkscape installed  but nautilus was still displaying a preview of the svg's...but there was no way of opening them.
<venda> jsgotangco: what did you think the hug was for ;-)
<jsgotangco> robitaille, i think its a bug that Burgandavia has already filed
<jsgotangco> i didnt see that hug
<venda> robitaille: inkscape dude install
<jsgotangco> i hope you were already dressed
<venda> no
<venda> jsgotangco: but there is an image missing
<carthik> shouldn't gimp be able to open svg files?
<venda> best to do everything in svg
<venda> carthik: no
<carthik> I see
<jsgotangco> venda, yes since its svg, it references to a png file which i didnt upload
<venda> vector /= raster
<robitaille> just installed inkscape...  now I can see the svg properly.
<venda> can you redraw the png
<venda> robitaille: :-)
<jsgotangco> venda, screenshot
<venda> ok upload the screen shot dude
<jsgotangco> venda, i am trying to figure out how to publish it as pdf without going thru scribus
<jsgotangco> because the svg filter of scribus plain sucks
<venda> jsgotangco: export as png 300dpi
<jsgotangco> then?
<venda> open in gimp -- flatten image
<venda> export as pdf if gimp supports
<jsgotangco> ok let me try that in another file
<venda> otherwise import to OOo w
<venda> OOo 2.0 supports the whole svg
<venda> that may be quicker
<jsgotangco> its the best i can do with so little time
<venda> its a start
<venda> better than nothing I say
<jsgotangco> it looks good for a start though
* venda like to do it and then improve on it. Perfection is something attained over time
<venda> brilliant
<jsgotangco> let me mess it up first then ill upload the png as well
<venda> even my posters are not a picaso
<venda> but they are a start
<venda> I am not much of a graphics person
<jsgotangco> same here, i have a good eye for colors though
<jsgotangco> on my lord it looks awesome as pdf
<venda> Cool
<venda> what process did you use?
<jsgotangco> OOo
<venda> 2.0
* venda thanks jsgotangco for the UDU pics on flickr
<jsgotangco> the font is kinda messed up
<jsgotangco> ah
<venda> who is the cute 3 year old
<jsgotangco> umm that's my daughter
<venda> she wil be a real looker when she is older
<jsgotangco> you think so, i think she got the features from my wife
<venda> you gonna have lots of trouble on your hands
<venda> well you wife is WOW too
<venda> lucky man
<venda> your daught is very photogenic
<jsgotangco> yeah i have some pics in RAW but i have yet to send it to the studio
<jsgotangco> i have this nice Nikon dslr i bought last christmas
<venda> All the green in the pictures reminds me of Durban
<venda> east coast
<venda> also hot and warm there
<venda> so everything is green all year
<venda> up here in johannesburg everythng turns brown around this time of year
<jsgotangco> hmm
<jsgotangco> "flickr is having a massage"
<jsgotangco> i guess its down for maintenance now
<venda> yes I saw them yesterday
<venda> Oh well time to get dressed I guess
* venda notices that jsgotangco won't look at him in his birthday suit
<jsgotangco> no even when you're sleeping i imagine you in a suit
<venda> oh dear, I am getting a bad reputation
<venda> if it helps, I am sitting here in a pair of long jamas and a jersey
<jsgotangco> i hope you dont have a baseball cap worn in reverse with some gold chains and stuff around your neck
<venda> big coffee on one side and my laptop on my knees to keep me warm
<venda> no those are next to my bed :-)
<venda> jolly good show, what, what?
* venda says with a stiff upper lift in his best British acent
<jsgotangco> a question first
<jsgotangco> what's html.sh for
<venda> mmm
<venda> not working yet
<venda> part of build sys
<jeffsch> carthik: you can work on style guide :-)
<venda> it was supposed to be the driver script to make html
<jsgotangco> venda, it doesn't work
<venda> no, not ready yet
<jsgotangco> jeffsch, hi
<venda> jeffsch: hi
<jeffsch> hi
<venda> ok I is off
<carthik> jeffsch, erm, I am happy to have found the userguide that venda and jsgotangco pointed out, but should I lose interest, i will certainly look at the style guide
* jsgotangco avoids the style guide
<venda> carthik: do what you want to do and have fun
<jeffsch> you can read the makefile in the stylguide folder to see how to generate html and pdf
<carthik> venda, sounds like a plan :)
<venda> jeffsch: why tldp project
<jsgotangco> carthik, that's how we work here
<jeffsch> umm errr, I tried the tldp stylesheets out
<jeffsch> I liked the layout of their html
<jeffsch> I didn't remove it from the makefile, just commented it out
<venda> jeffsch: no that is fine, just wondered
<venda> Ok now I is zero ca ya
<jsgotangco> errmm
<jsgotangco> how do you use this script
<froud-away> jsgotangco: you dont until we're finsihed
<jeffsch> cd to the styleguide folder, then type make html
<jeffsch> or "make pdf"
<jsgotangco> xmllint --dtdvalid /usr/share/xml/docbook/schema/dtd/4.3/docbookx.dtd --noout --xinclude --noent --postvalid styleguide.xml
<jsgotangco> xsltproc -o styleguide.fo udp-pdf.xslt styleguide.xml
<jsgotangco> Making portrait pages on USletter paper (8.5inx11in)
<jsgotangco> fop.sh -fo styleguide.fo -pdf styleguide.pdf
<jsgotangco> make: fop.sh: Command not found
<jsgotangco> make: *** [pdf]  Error 127
<jeffsch> hmmm... you don't have apache xml tools installed
<jeffsch> I can't remember offhand the package
<jsgotangco> hmm
<jeffsch> i will find out
<jeffsch> you can still make the html though
<jsgotangco> yeah html works
<carthik> libapache-modxslt ?
<carthik> or libapache2-modxslt....
<jsgotangco> most likely 2
<jeffsch> hmmm... no, i think those are for web server... I don't have either one installed
<carthik> ant , ant-doc perhaps? (A system independent build tool that uses XML files as "Makefiles")
<jeffsch> is there some way of searching packages to see if fop-0.20.5 is in one of them?
<carthik> searching for "docbook pdf" gets me to docbook-utils
<froud> carthik: you need an xsl-fo processor
<froud> so you use saxon and then create xsl:fo > Apache FOP
<froud> > PDF
<froud> > PS
<froud> > RTF
<froud> etc
<froud> carthik: I like ant
<froud> but java is a regilious topic here so we stay wil the make wrinkles
<carthik> xmlto package then, perhaps
<carthik> the urge to install all lib* packages comes back every now and then :)
<froud> carthik: if you like
<froud> I just use saxon and xalan
<froud> build system ant
<jeffsch> froud: do you know which package has fop.sh?
<froud> Apache fop
<froud> download it form Apache
<jeffsch> ahhh... so that's how I got it
<froud> here is my classpath
<froud> CLASSPATH="/usr/share/saxon-6.5.3/saxon.jar:/usr/share/xml/docbook/stylesheet/nwalsh/current/exte
<froud> nsions/saxon65.jar:/usr/share/java/fop-0.20.5/build/fop.jar:/usr/share/java/fop-0.20.5/lib/batik.
<froud> jar:/usr/share/java/fop-0.20.5/lib/xalan-2.4.1.jar:/usr/share/java/fop-0.20.5/lib/xercesImpl-2.2.
<froud> 1.jar:/usr/share/java/fop-0.20.5/lib/JimiProClasses.jar:/usr/share/java/fop-0.20.5/lib/avalon-fra
<froud> mework-cvs-20020806.jar"
<froud> export CLASSPATH
<jeffsch> http://gulus.usherbrooke.ca/pub/appl/apache/xml/fop/
<froud> yes or just go to http://xml.apache.org/fop/ and click download to get your closest mirror
<froud> notice when using saxon
<jsgotangco> froud, the pdf only looks good when press optimized
<froud> you can use the jar extension for db
<froud> jsgotangco: it will
<jsgotangco> lower than that, it sucks
<froud> screen is not good for print
<froud> for those who want to render png files in pdf note /usr/share/java/fop-0.20.5/lib/JimiProClasses.jar
<froud> Download jimmi from sun or install jai'
<froud> jia
<froud> /usr/share/xml/docbook/stylesheet/nwalsh/current/exte
<froud> [08:54]  <froud> nsions/saxon65.jar
<froud> If you want extensions for formating in fo see 
<froud> oops
<froud> this path /usr/share/xml/docbook/stylesheet/nwalsh/current/extensions/saxon65.jar
<froud> with saxon you ha ethe best control
<froud> you can use dbfo proc intructs in the xml src to define things otherwise not possible
<froud> well that's me for today
<froud> later dude
<jeffsch> me go too. bye.
<jsgotangco> jdub, when you're free, can you probably review the flyer in svn so that it can be at least used by the LugRadioLive people
<robitaille> jsgotangco,  what's the path in svn to the flyer?
<jsgotangco> robitaille, artwork :)
<robitaille> oh.. which one?  ubuntu-brochure?
<jsgotangco> ubuntu_conferece_brocher_A4.svg
<jsgotangco> svn up if you still dont have it
<robitaille> got it. that's the  one the broken png image.  I was testing my newly-instal inkscape earlier on it
<jsgotangco> svn up again, i uplodaed the png
<robitaille> "firefox 1.04"...isn't that a bit misleading? 
<jsgotangco> robitaille, i know that's why it should be edited :)
<jsgotangco> i mean reviewed
<jsgotangco> i could have just put dolor sit amet, etc.
<jsgotangco> hehe
<robitaille> got the new version with the png.  looks great.
<jsgotangco> it looks awesome as 300 dpi PDF
<jsgotangco> (not bad for something done in 3 hours)
<robitaille> I have found that I'm totally hopeless with anything even remotely artistic for posters, logos, etc
<robitaille> do you want comments on the text, or the ball is in jdub's court?
<jsgotangco> i want comment on text, we can always change stuff on it, but of course, jdub's opinion would be great as well
<jsgotangco> (we wouldn't want to publish stuff that they can't vouch)
<robitaille> ok...so I think "firefox 1.0.4" is a bit misleading...but not sure what to put instead.  "Firefox 1" looks funny.  And "Firefox 1.0.2" looks insecure.
<robitaille> I would replace the "totally rad laptop support"  The language seems out of place with the rest of the page.
<jsgotangco> yes, that's the stuff i want to be identified
<jsgotangco> we'd like people to know that our stuff works great with laptops
<robitaille> Ubuntu is not really "entirely free and open source"...just take the "kernel-restricted modules"  packages installed by default :)
<robitaille> maybe "Excellent laptops support" as a replacement?  Actually I'm not even sure what "rad" means here (english /= my 1st language).  Radical?
<jsgotangco> yeah
<jsgotangco> hmm
* jsgotangco wonders who coined Totally Rad laptop support
<robitaille> maybe you should put the default gdm picture (the one with the circle of people) instead of the screenshot of the desktop.  That would put a nice human touch to the flyer. (that and I'm not a big fan of Hoary's default background image)
<jsgotangco> actually, i was asking mako/jdub/silbs about stock images from the hoary cd
<jsgotangco> the desktop was just there to put something
<robitaille> time to go to bed... good night
<jsgotangco> night
<mdke> morning all
<jsgotangco> hello
<mdke> hiya
<jsgotangco> whats up man
<mdke> just getting up
<mdke> last day at school today
<mdke> :D
<jsgotangco> wow
<jsgotangco> after that what happens
<mdke> just need to hand in my exams then I'm done
<mdke> i start a job for a year in october after that i'll officially be a lawyer
<mdke> til then i need to find something to do
<jsgotangco> hmmm
<jsgotangco> ambulance chase?
<mdke> not sure I know that one
<mdke> Be RiGhT bAcK
<jsgotangco> ambulance chasing
<jsgotangco> hehe
<mdke> <-- shower
<jsgotangco> eww
<jsgotangco> why do you guys have the habit of chatting first before fixing up
<mdke> back
<mdke> so whats ambulance chasing
<mdke> jsgotangco
<mdke> [09:53:34]  jsgotangco why do you guys have the habit of chatting first before fixing up
<mdke> i consider this room part of my house
<jsgotangco> oh its an american term for lawyers that constantly are on the lookout for possible clients
<mdke> oh of course
<jsgotangco> they usually stay near hospitals in the emergency rooms
<mdke> personal injury lawyers are ebil
<jsgotangco> you know how evil those things are along with tort law
<mdke> its part of tort law
<mdke> tort law is pretty cool, just personal injury lawyers give it a bad name
<jsgotangco> corporate tort is the worst
<mdke> so you guys have tort law eh?#
<jsgotangco> not really
<mdke> where did you get your law from?
<jsgotangco> me?
<mdke> your country i mean
<jsgotangco> ah its usually american jurisprudence if there's no local to refer to
<mdke> i c
<mdke> hence "tort"
<jsgotangco> i believe we would have been better off if we were colonized by the english instead of the spanish and the americans
<mdke> *grins*
<mdke> the americans got their law from us
<mdke> not the spanish tho
<jsgotangco> i;ve always compared countries colonized by the spanish and the british
<jsgotangco> the british colonies seem to fare well after
<mdke> not so sure about that
<mdke> we are as oppressive as the next empire
<jsgotangco> well you can imagine my country being under spanish rule for over 400 years
<jsgotangco> and the next 100 from the americans
<jsgotangco> it got pretty screwed up culture wise
<jsgotangco> hehe
<mdke> yeah i can imagine
<jsgotangco> but i guess in a racial point of view
<jsgotangco> we have our bloods so mixed up
<jsgotangco> thats why we dont have that much asian features compared to our neighbors
<mdke> taking the best parts from each race eh...
<jsgotangco> it would be ok if its just race
<jsgotangco> hehe
<jsgotangco> thats why the vatican loves the philippines
<mdke> ;)
<jsgotangco> its the only country in asia which has more than 80% catholics
<mdke> that'll be the spanish influence
<jsgotangco> if it not for WWII, Manila would be beautiful
<jsgotangco> there is some local news here now about 2 japanese soldiers from WWII were found 60 years after the war
<Liz> evening enrico 
<Liz> evening sivang 
<enrico> Hi!
<mdke> hi enrico, Liz 
<Liz> hi again mdke 
<Liz> wow..channels been chatty for a change
<mdke> *grins*
<mdke> it goes in bursts
<Liz> hehe..its all good
<jsgotangco> hey
<jsgotangco> WOW
<jsgotangco> i was reading some news
<jsgotangco> who knows the PSP (Playstation Portable)
<sivang> Hey Liz !
<sivang> enrico: wooohooo ! :-)
<jsgotangco> wow
<sivang> enrico: it's like one in a million chance for me to catch up on you
<sivang> enrico: how are you? how have you been?
<sivang> amazing to see that the topic hasn't changed since I first set it :-)
<sivang> (While I still had more time for Ubuntu :-....( )
<jsgotangco> are you serious
<sivang> jsgotangco: huh? what do you mean?
<jsgotangco> the topic thing
<sivang> jsgotangco: look at the date
<sivang> Jan 1st 
<sivang> this year
<sivang> :-)
<jsgotangco> i didnt even notice
<froud> shalom sivang naim liroht ot gha
<sivang> jsgotangco: here's another freind of mine from the early days of Ubuntu doc team
<sivang> froud: :-) Ma Nishma! Hamon zman lo dibarnoo
<jsgotangco> hmm
<jsgotangco> israel?
<enrico> sivang: hi
<sivang> jsgotangco: yep, do you recognize the words?
<froud> sivang: ken lama, la'an alaghta
<sivang> enrico: hey enrico, 'sup?
<sivang> froud: leshoom makom, pashoot matzati avoda ;-)
<enrico> sivang: a wee overworked
<froud> sivang: mazal tov
<jsgotangco> i only recognize "shalom"
<sivang> froud: toda :-)
<froud> sivang: im eze grevra
<enrico> avaa naguila avaaa naguila avaaa 
<sivang> enrico: hahaha
<sivang> froud: I think we should step back to hebrew
<sivang> opos,
<sivang> to english
<froud> ok
<sivang> enrico noted it with his hava nagila :-)
<froud> he he
<froud> so you have a job now
<enrico> MAZELTOPF!
<froud> good thing dude
<sivang> froud: yeah, that's why you don't see me around much anymore
<froud> which company
* enrico ran out of hebrew
<sivang> enrico: :-)
<sivang> jsgotangco: where are you from?
<froud> sivang hopefully you wil have time to do work on ubuntu
* froud goes off to write a press release
<sivang> froud: yeah, but I don't think I will do something else then code...I feel it's my true self to work on code then on docs
<jsgotangco> sivang, manila, philippines
<sivang> jsgotangco: cool, I hope things have gotten back to normal there since last disaster?
<jsgotangco> sivang, hmmm are you talking about the tsunami, no we werent affected by that at all
<sivang> jsgotangco: eh , good for you, sorry for my confusion.
<sivang> jsgotangco: I know you have a very nice place there, may freinds tell me that
<jsgotangco> its a good place to spend money for sure
<jsgotangco> (especially if you have loads of it)
<sivang> jsgotangco: lot
<sivang> jsgotangco: how com?
<jsgotangco> sivang, well if you're a smoker for instance, a pack or marlboro red would only cost you .50 cents (US $)
<jsgotangco> not bad, i got mine for $600 - no name centrino from taiwan
<jsgotangco> a high end geforce would probably cost you $100
<jsgotangco> you could probably get it much cheaper in taiwan or hong kong
<jsgotangco> wow setting up mediawiki is a no brainer
<Liz> ill be back later
<Liz> bye bye all
<sivang> froud: you here?
<froud> here
<sivang> ok, this may come as rather unusual,
<jsgotangco> oh my it just ran
<sivang> however it seems that myself and froud have been contacted by a company
<froud> enrico: jdub jeff-away jsgotangco k31th Kinnison mdke mpt mvirkkil Seveas sivang sladen 
<sivang> (a publishing house)
<sivang> which seems to work out on the ubuntu doc team,
<sivang> and their intentions are unclear
<froud> seems this company is trolling the team for people to write a book
<sivang> froud: please go on
<mpt> sivang: What do you mean by "work out on"?
<sivang> froud: (so good to have talked about this, I feel relieved)
<froud> sivang: and I had a chat
<jsgotangco> froud, i don't mind co-authoring a book
<froud> and we think we need to bring this to the attention of the team
<sivang> mpt: read on what froud says
<jsgotangco> i have been thinking about an official book as well
<mpt> That's cool!
<froud> The company could be working us against one another
<sivang> exactly
<sivang> trying to lower the proice,
<sivang> have us submit proposals etc
<jsgotangco> hmm?
<mpt> froud gets to write a book in the medium for which books are intended! ;-)
<sivang> then take on those ideas 
<froud> has anyone else been contacted
<jsgotangco> no
<jsgotangco> not i
<jsgotangco> let me check email
<froud> The method is not cool IMHO
<froud> eg
<mpt> Unless they're one of the lurkers here, they probably picked names off the wiki, which would prevent them knowing about me :-)
* sivang seconds froud
<jsgotangco> no i dont have email
<froud> if each of us submits an outline to a book then they will have the way to do a book without us
<mpt> sivang, froud: So they contacted you two separately, without telling you about each other?
<sivang> froud: exactly
<froud> and we all endup with nothing
<froud> this type of thing goes on often
<sivang> they can then give this to a writer of their own
<froud> yep
<froud> the hard part is the planning and outline
<sivang> me and froud are old timers already in this arena, we know stuff like this
<jsgotangco> wow thanks for the heads up
<jsgotangco> at least i shouldn't be excited if i got contacted
<sivang> jsgotangco: yeah, take this into proportion
<froud> it is good news
<jsgotangco> it means we're doing good i guess
<froud> but we need to walk slowly together
<jsgotangco> froud, i'd rather publish a book co-author with people i know
<froud> sivang and I thought it best to bring this into the open
<jsgotangco> and get a stamp of approval from the people above
<froud> I trust others in the team will do the same
<sivang> me too
<jsgotangco> if its a localized book, its a different story
<froud> I don't mind being approached to do books but I dont like the way this company is doing it
<froud> they communicate once or twice and then fall slilent
<jsgotangco> ahh
<enrico> I haven't been contacted so far
<jsgotangco> when was this?
<sivang> enrico: maybe I should publish my toc on the docteam wikik
<enrico> sivang: you may want to wait for froud to come back online
<froud> sorry split
<sivang> enrico: and set foor for starting ground for a new ubuntu book, for people with only windows knowledge
<enrico> I haven't been contacted so far
<sivang> enrico: they might do this in rounds and with intervals
<jsgotangco> i say we move faster and beat them to it
* enrico just finished writing 2 papers and needs to do some coding to re-equilibrate his karma :)
<mpt> jsgotangco: Then who would publish it?
<froud> mpt: I can register ISBN
<jsgotangco> good question
<froud> and handle publishing
<mpt> And why wouldn't you want people to make money off Ubuntu?
<froud> we do
<sivang> enrico: papaers? for uni?
<froud> but not at the expense of the community
<jsgotangco> they just dont like their tactics
<froud> "For Humanity"
<mpt> If they want to put out a book, that's great, and if their price is too low, let them find someone else.
<jsgotangco> divide and conquer
<enrico> sivang: http://debtags.alioth.debian.org/paper-debtags.{html,rst,pdf} (for Debconf5)
<froud> jsgotangco: yes
<enrico> and another for an academic journal about a case study for free software in schools
<jsgotangco> lets say they got froud to do it,
<jsgotangco> they can say they have authoritative doc?
<froud> not really important
<sivang> enrico: cool, like a true scholar
<froud> if they contact us as a team I am happy
<sivang> froud: maybe we should offer this to mark?
<enrico> About the company, how about naming a person in the team who is the only one having contacts with them?
<enrico> Then when they write to anyone else, they get sent to that person
<sivang> enrico: good idea
* mpt scratches his head
<enrico> And that person can say "So, what do you want to do?"
<sivang> froud: I mean, take on such a book , keeping the health of the community, having it open sourced and printed
<mpt> enrico: They'll want to have a contract with only one or (at most) two people, surely
<sivang> mpt: true, that's what they told me
<jsgotangco> just like what they do on most deadtree books, it gets released to the community after a few days
<sivang> mpt: however, as a joint team, we do not have to agree
<froud> I think that Ubuntu.com is all the marketing we need
<froud> adding an ISBN I can get it in Amazon and B&N
<sivang> froud: you have an ISBN registeration?
<mpt> froud, I think ubuntu.com is no match for the world's bookstores.
<froud> I can do it
<mpt> offline bookstores, I mean.
<froud> mpt: you will be surprised
<jsgotangco> wow
<jsgotangco> this i got to see
<froud> mpt: but with an ISBN it can be ordered by book stores
<sivang> froud: can you start your own publishing house? ;-)
<sivang> froud: to have the book published...
<jdub> sivang: dude, maybe the publisher just wants to publish a book, not muck around.
<sivang> froud: and to keep power in our hands?
<froud> no, I will donate it back to the Ubuntu-docteam
<mpt> froud: Who's going to promote it to them?
<froud> mpt: the power of the community is strong
<sivang> jdub: true, but their tactics is strange, acutally, very strange
<jdub> sivang: they're asking people they can identify as ubuntu writers about involvement in a piece. not entirely strange.
<froud> I would like a free and open book where people pay for the service of printing
* sivang seconds froud 
<jsgotangco> not bad either
<sivang> thinking of refusing them unless they agree to follow this
<jdub> that may be so, but it may be entirely irrelevant to this publisher
<sivang> froud: what do you say?
<sivang> jdub: you know the publisher's name?
<jsgotangco> they would just find another person
<jdub> and if they care enough to push the book, that just means someone else will write it
<mpt> bingo.
<jsgotangco> right
* froud phone
<mpt> I'd rather one member of the docteam (not me! I'm too ignorant about Ubuntu) got paid by themselves to write it, whatever the license, than that we tried to hold the entire docteam hostage on our own behalf, only to have the publisher say "screw you" and hire someone who makes more mistakes.
<mpt> But then, it's not really any of my business, since they haven't contacted me :-P
<jdub> imparting common sense is sometimes a forced business :)
<froud> mpt: I would like to see commiters collaborate on it
<jsgotangco> i'm too dumb to write a book by myself if they contact me, i'd still ask for the docteam's help anyway
<jdub> froud: don't muck around with publishers then, start your own book project
<froud> jdub: we have
<froud> the problem is a hijack
<mpt> The more books the better
<jdub> great, so stop conflating issues and get to work :)
<jsgotangco> froud, we do?
<froud> jdub: we are
* jsgotangco scratches head
<sivang> froud: we do? ;-
<froud> jsgotangco: yes its in svn
<froud> see user guides
<sivang> ah right, the start of a book
<jsgotangco> hmm
<jsgotangco> mpt, your'e right, they're books tee hee
<mpt> yes :->
<mpt> The more books the better ... except in yelp
<froud> OK I am notsure on Canonical on this one
<jsgotangco> i'd rather not think canonical for now
<mpt> What does it have to do with Canonical?
<froud> they have a split interest
<jsgotangco> i'd rather not be bothered by bureaucracy
<jdub> the most respected linux author in germany has just published an ubuntu book
<mpt> Canonical doesn't own Ubuntu
<sivang> froud: however, what if they want to hire you and me, and we can make sure they will have the book open sourced, has anybody a problem against it?
<jdub> jsgotangco: (dude, there is very little bureaucracy to be dealt with, where canonical is involved)
<froud> I have no problem working with the team
<sivang> jdub: cool, does it adress non linux users as well?
<froud> jdub: from inside perhaps not
<sivang> froud: I'd just like to utilize their ersources, for paying on your and mine's work, to have an open sourced book that would be even shipped with Ubuntu :-)
<jdub> sivang: what does the team have to do with an invitation to be involved in writing a book?
<jdub> sivang: i don't know; it's a book about ubuntu written in german
<jsgotangco> sivang, it has a DVD of the install image as well
* jsgotangco thinks its great
<froud> ok let ssee how this pans out
<froud> the important thing is that you are all aware
* jsgotangco doesn't really mind any of the docteam members get paid for book writing of sorts, its their business
<jdub> froud: there is very little bureaucracy when dealing with canonical from inside or out. getting what you want or not is not related to bureaucracy.
<froud> jsgotangco: yes, but it is how you go about doing that
<jsgotangco> froud, thanks for the info anyway
<froud> jdub: that's not my experience
<froud> but that's just me
<jsgotangco> well if i do got invited to write, i will tell you guys about it for sure
<jsgotangco> (but i dont see myself getting invited)
<froud> I think what's important here is that we are not being played off one against the other
<froud> I don't want a situation where b'cause of this people have a bad taste in their mouth and leave
<froud> If the company is open in their intention and communicates responsibly then I would not doubt them
<jsgotangco> (but then, this is just a start, we're less than a year old)
<froud> that has not been the case
<jsgotangco> well this has been an exciting discussion
<froud> sure
<jsgotangco> i better leave i'll be late for dinner with my wife
<froud> I must do some work
<sivang> laterz all, we will update on this more
<sivang> I also have to go
<jsgotangco> froud, just keep us posted anyway for what its work
<jsgotangco> worth
<sivang> power to the peoplpe! :_)
<froud> +1
* sivang realizes the benefits of being a member of the community
<jsgotangco> sivang, it will pay off further in the months to come i guess
<jsgotangco> (future releases and all)
<sivang> jsgotangco: for me it payed up from day 0 :-)
<jsgotangco> heh
<sivang> jsgotangco: and from waty
<jsgotangco> later then
<sivang> laterz
<sivang> later jdub , thanks 
<mpt> http://www.ubuntulinux.org/books/
<jsgotangco> argghh
* jsgotangco checks one last time
<jsgotangco> they help fund ubuntu?
<jsgotangco> hmm
<sivang> bye all
<Kinnison> Morning
<froud> He he, now even our finance minister s calling for Ubuntu http://www.finance24.com/articles/economy/display_article.asp?ArticleID=1518-25_1715369
<jjesse> grin a global ubuntu
<froud> is it possible to order Kubuntu CDs through shipit
<jjesse> i recently ordered some and never saw a choice, i htink there should be
<froud> jjesse: seems there is not .. confirmed by Riddle
<jjesse> i got the same answer in #kubuntu
<froud> jjesse: you following the list
<froud> am I totally wrong here
<froud> I know I am out on a limb for doing
<froud> but it also seems that is the only way to get the attention and get things done
<froud> :-)
<froud> I still think we can do a great help system for ubuntu-docs without installing anything except html pages
<froud> let the devels and users use whatever tool they want to view ubuntu docs
<froud> dunno, maybe I am just not wanting to get into the battle of getting things changed upstream, but at least I made sure there is compatability
<froud> thoughts
<jjesse> sorry was away from desk, but i'm following the list and agree w/ you
<jjesse> want to write that?
<froud> well I would like to finalize this, with who agrees and who does not
<froud> so comment is a good thing
<froud> I am happy to finally be having this discusson at all :-)
<froud> last I tried it was a deafening silence
<jjesse> grin ok i'll write up a response
<jjesse> sorry that i haven't done much w/ the network install guide yet... been reall busy w/ life, but this weekend i've blocked out some time to wwork on it while i do an upgrade at work
<froud> jjesse: that's fine I have been side tracked into the FAQ Guide
<froud> jjesse: so please do your thang when you have time
<jjesse> a
<venda> b
<venda> Ok all tapped out on this conversation with Jeff
<venda> think I am gonna call it a night
<venda> see you good chaps later
<sivang> froud-away: ping
<sivang> froud-away: you here?
<sivang> jdub: what's the license of the stuff published on the wiki?
#ubuntu-doc 2005-06-11
<mdke> hi all
<mdke> omg
* mdke checks his email
<venda> African Greetings
<venda> jdub: wil be keeping us posted on developments in yelp
<venda> opps will you be ..
<venda> Anyone up to merging the PPC stuff into FAQ Guide?
<mdke> morning all
<sivang> morning mdke 
<sivang> froud-away: ping
* mdke points sivang towards venda 
<sivang> venda: ping, what's up with the nickname changw? ;-)
<sivang> mdke: has he dropped he older nickname?
<mdke> just when he's on his laptop i think
<sivang> mdke: interestingly enough, I got "dumped" by that publisher in an update email last night,
<sivang> mdke: I wonder what's froud's status :-)
<mdke> which publisher?
<sivang> mdke: weren't you here when we discussed how's  a publiher trying to "work out" the doc team
<sivang> mdke: in writing an ubuntu book
<sivang> mdke: anyway, I'm interested in posting my perliminary TOC to the wiki, and hoefully interested people would follow it to produce a special book to help a complete newbs to linux adjust to Ubuntu
<mdke> sivang, i sort of skimread the scrollback
<sivang> mdke: ah nice, what do you think?
<mdke> i didn't really get it ;)
<mdke> sivang, what sort of special book did you have in mind?
<venda> sivang: do it in svn
<sivang> mdke: what's the license of the wiki these days?
<mdke> sivang, is there no similar book already being worked on?
<mdke> sivang, no idea *laughs*
<venda> same as svn
<sivang> venda: hey Sean, sup?
<venda> sivang: tesim et ha avoda be svn
<venda> lo liftoach be wiki
<sivang> venda: Sababa, aval tagid lee ma ha rishayon shelo?
<venda> whose idea
<sivang> venda: Tageed, Manning deebroo eitcha me etmol?
<venda> sivang: od lo
<mdke> english pls
<sivang> mdke: :-)
<mdke> *grins*
<mdke> so sivang is there no similar book already being worked on?
<sivang> mdke: not that we could see, although jdub noted to a germen book about ubunut recently published
<mdke> yes i saw that
<mdke> sivang, so the Userguide doesn't interest you?
<sivang> mdke: I am going to commit it to the svn, so you will be able to see where my idea follow in the perliminary TOC o created
<sivang> mdke: it's cool,. but we need something introductry for Ubuntu
<sivang> mdke: so I will be able to tell my windows addict freinds to take a look at
<mdke> that is intended to be as introductory as possible
<venda> sivang: you need to send public pgp keys to elmo
<mdke> sivang, if you have some feedback on the userguide being too advanced, I'd be very interested because its intended to people who are TOTALLY new to Ubuntu
<venda> svn co https://docteam.ubuntu.com/repos/trunk
<sivang> mdke: ok, I don
<mdke> do/don't?
<sivang> mdke: don't mind ideas taken from my commit into the users guide, 
<sivang> mdke: I just want to have this in our repor under the licenses as a means of "protection"
<mdke> sivang, well if they are similar i feel it would be cool if you would work on the userguide itself
<sivang> mdke: ofcourse
<venda> chaps I think it is better to work on User Guide
<mdke> i don't like the idea of two books being worked on which have the same user target
<venda> +1
<mdke> the userguide is very young and it can be changed a lot, i'm v interested to see sivang 's TOC
<venda> it is better to focus on making User Guide a good book
<sivang> venda: true
<venda> sivang: can you merge your ideas into user guide
<sivang> venda: however, I suspect my rather wide introduction could frustrate other users who have already knowlege about linux wanting to use the book
<sivang> venda: first let me put this list so we won't loose it ;-)
<mdke> sure
<sivang> venda: second, I promise to try to :-)
<mdke> thanks
<venda> sivang: lets see it and then we can decide
* mdke nods
<sivang> venda: I am also going to commit my email corrospondance with them,
<venda> I think our collective approach will do the best thing
<mdke> venda, btw I wanted to ask, what is the help viewer that openoffice uses?
<venda> mdke: its their own
<mdke> ...
<mdke> does it have a name?
<venda> Hmm dunno
<venda> why
<mdke> its nice
<venda> yes so if FF
<mdke> its light tho
<venda> but as you can see from the list all talk about helpviewers is a time waster
<mdke> yes
<venda> I am not sure that we should change our strategy on the notion that one or other viewer will support what it we are doing
<venda> I hope others on the team agree with me on this
<mdke> venda, i'm not sure
<venda> mdke: expand
<mdke> ok
<mdke> its a chicken and egg thing
<mdke> you say the help viewer doesn't support what we are doing
<venda> right
<mdke> but the only reason for that is that we haven't limited what we are doing to what the help viewer will support
<mdke> e.g. by doing the faqgude in q+a
<venda> why settle for less?
<mdke> i partially agree
<mdke> but
<mdke> i think i told you already, i felt that ubuntu wouldn't be interested in shipping a new help viewer
<mdke> so i felt that going ahead without them was dangerous
<venda> I am not shipping a new help viewer
<mdke> i thought you were
<venda> no
<mdke> what was that screenshot then?
<venda> I said I would like to develop a help viewer
<venda> that is a drawing of a web-based app
<venda> the user agent can be any browser
<venda> it is HTML + CSS + JSCRIPT
<mdke> i don't have a problem with us shipping html instead of xml, but yelp should probably be the Ubuntu help viewer i feel, if they can get searching implemented, then that will help
<venda> Great if they do, but Yelp also displays HTML
<mdke> thats what I mean
<venda> the problem is the XSLs that are in Yelp
<mdke> but at the same time, i'm probably not going to get involved with the email because I don't have the expertise
<venda> Yelp trys to perform a dynamic transformation
<venda> It does not support many of the auto processing features we can usewith docbook
<venda> the requirements list shows that
<venda> qanda is not a big job for them to do
<venda> but the gnome team dont use faq so they just dont support it
<venda> I can understand this
<mdke> well the faq can ship as html and be viewed in yelp right?
<venda> but why should we not be able to use FAQ format
<venda> yes
<mdke> thats ok then
<venda> everything can be shipped as html and viewed in yelp
<venda> faq is a good example
<venda> I am adding kubuntu and ubuntu profiles and PPC
<venda> yelp wont support profiling
<mdke> will yelp handle that?
<venda> no
<mdke> then don't add the profiling
<mdke> otherwise the docs which you add it to won't be usable with Ubuntu
<venda> but if I transform to HTML they can view it and we can manage the target books with less overhead
<venda> i18n job is also made easier
<mdke> but will yelp handle the profiling in html?
<venda> there is no profile in the html
<mdke> so it makes 3 htmls?
<venda> yes
<mdke> ok thats fine
<mdke> that's what i meant
<venda> from a single source
<venda> ok I must go now
<mdke> right 
<venda> I must go out
<mdke> have a nice weekend
<venda> c ya b b later
<sivang> mdke: https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/UserGuide
<sivang> mdke: this is what I Have been talking about
<sivang> _froud_: https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/UserGuide
<mdke> sivang, merci, will look at it later on, gtg out right now
<mdke> thanks
<sivang> mdke: no prob, as along as we keep stuff in the community :-)
<Kinnison> Morning people
<sivang> hey Kinnison ,  !
<Kinnison>  !
<Kinnison> How are you today?
<sivang> Kinnison: fine I guess , bit frustraed due to the mass desire to rewrite code that partially already exists, and can be used to build and improve on
<sivang> Kinnison: referring to some specs from UDU
<sivang> Kinnison: specifically, all the buzz about System/GNOME settings and managment tool
<sivang> Kinnison: tools, even
* Kinnison grins
<sivang> Kinnison: I mean, it's true that most of the backedns are perlish, but that doesn't mean we have to toss them altogether
<sivang> Kinnison: and python isn't probably the answer to everything ;-)
* Kinnison grins
<sivang> Kinnison: Anyway, I'm a bit sick, I'll hit the bed, see you later!
<sivang> Kinnison: bye
<venda> any free choices above IDLE for learning Python
<sivang> venda: ping
<venda> good night ppl
<venda> I have started porting kudos.berlios.de into FAQ Guide. Anyone wanting to do some work in this area is welcome.
<venda> There should be enough example in the FAQ Guide now so that people know how to markup for profiling between GNOME and KDE
<venda> I could really use some help on this as Kudos is big
<venda> and I would like to get it complete in as short a time possible
#ubuntu-doc 2005-06-12
<venda> African Greetings
<carthik_zZ> hi venda, American adios :) gotta sleep now.
<venda> hi by carthik_zZ 
<venda> mdke: you there
<mdke> yes
<mdke> ;)
<mdke> froud-away, 
<mdke> hi venda 
<venda> hi
<mdke> what is up?
<venda> dude the kudos this has the marl repos's
<mdke> so does ubuntuguide
<venda> I cant remember what we said about those
<mdke> marillat?
<mdke> it is ebil
<venda> yes, why
<mdke> it contains libraries and packages which are not built for ubuntu
<venda> ok
<mdke> so if you add the repository to install something, you get libraries for stuff you didn't want to overwrite
<venda> man I could use some help porting kudos to faq guide
<mdke> yeah i saw your appeal yesterday
<mdke> i can't help right now i'm afraid
<venda> I want to get on with other thngs
<mdke> don't port it then
<venda> it would be so much easier of others helped
<mdke> sorry mate
<venda> :-(
<mdke> i can't do it
<venda> ok
<mdke> just leave it until later in the release cycle
<venda> Hmmm, not good
<venda> I guess I will just do it bit by bit over a long time
* mdke shrugs
<mdke> you can't do everything
<mdke> just concentrate on what you feel are the most important things in our targets
<venda> getting these docs into svn is important to halt the fragmentation
<venda> anyay
<venda> later
<mdke> there will be more fragmentation
<mdke> its inevitable
<mdke> k bye
#ubuntu-doc 2006-06-05
* mdke starts rolling out books
<LaserJock> go Matthew go!
<LaserJock> books books books!!!
<LaserJock> :-)
<mdke> Madpilot: my titles are your titles vary a little bit
<Madpilot> how so?
<mdke> my pt_BR is http://help.ubuntu.com/6.06/ubuntu/desktopguide/pt_BR/index.html
<mdke> Guia do Desktop Ubuntu
<mdke> yours is Guia Desktop Ubuntu
<Madpilot> ah... any idea which is more correct?
<mdke> that's fine obviously, but I'm getting a bit confused between all these different types of portuguese
<mdke> it's going to be hard to tell them apart on the store
<Madpilot> hmm
<mdke> do you know where your strings come from?
<Madpilot> for the UDG ones, from bookinfo.xml via robotgeek's script
<mdke> i can't see that string in there
<mdke> ah, it's in the omf file
* mdke shrugs
<Madpilot> ah, sorry. Yeah, it's from the omf
<Madpilot> should I change that pt_BR string on the UDG cover?
<mdke> nope, if it's in the omf it must be fine
* mdke publishes
<Madpilot> OK
<Madpilot> bunch of KDG covers going up now
<mdke> Madpilot: can you upload the english ones too pls?
<Madpilot> sure
<mdke> thx
<Madpilot> thought they were already in the directory, but maybe not
<mdke> could be
<Madpilot> no, they're not, actually
<Madpilot> KDG it, es & pt_BR covers up
<Madpilot> again, I can't get anything intelligible out of the ko files :(
<mdke> damn
<Burgundavia> Madpilot: ping
<Madpilot> Burgundavia, hi
<Burgundavia> Madpilot: did you get my quer?
<Madpilot> Burgundavia, yeah, sorry, just overlooked it. One sec.
<LaserJock> mdke: hmm, that gender convention question is interesting
<mdke> yep
<LaserJock> mdke: seems like it would be a good idea to have a "Translation Notes:" section at the beginning of the doc
<mdke> a visible one, or an invisible one for the translators?
<LaserJock> visible
<mdke> sounds doable
<Madpilot> mdke, English covers up as UDG_C.png, etc
<LaserJock> the point was that some things might need to be explained to the reader about the translational style
<mdke> Madpilot: merci
<mdke> shit my wifi is going cranky again
<LaserJock> Madpilot should really get a gold star for the covers :-)
<mdke> yeah, they look great
<Madpilot> thanks
<mdke> check em out on the storefront
<mdke> http://www.lulu.com/ubuntu-doc
<LaserJock> oh nice, it has the free download on there
<LaserJock> hehe, I like the "Publisher: Matthew East" on the Kubuntu italian DG :-)
<mdke> oh shit
<mdke> yeah, tell me if you see things like that
<mdke> it autoinserted it and sometimes I will have forgotten to remove it
<crimsun> I do like that lulu uses opt-in for spam^H^Hnewsletter
<LaserJock> mdke: that's the only one
<mdke> cool, fixed
<LaserJock> another disaster averted ;-)
<LaserJock> hehe, I can't wait for the first lulu.com bug on LP ;-)
<LaserJock> mdke: looks like italian UDG doesn't have the language listed
<mdke> oh, pain
<mdke> thanks
<Madpilot> mdke, Server Guide covers in en & pt_BR up
<mdke> thanks Madpilot 
<LaserJock> mdke: neither does the "Panduan Destop Ubuntu" whatever that is
<mdke> LaserJock: your indonesian is almost as bad as your korean
<LaserJock> hehe
<LaserJock> mdke: actually a lot of them are missing the Language: part
<mdke> meh
<mdke> damn
<Madpilot> http://www.warbard.ca/temp/Ubuntu_Covers/Packaging_C.png & Packaging_pt_BR.png both up
<mdke> nice, so we're just missing the crazy font ones
<Madpilot> never mind, I'm an idiot. We need Packaging_sv, not pt_Br
<LaserJock> \o/
<Madpilot> that's the only guide the Brazillians *haven't* gotten around to translating yet, it seems :)
<mdke> yeah, they are crazy those brazilians
<LaserJock> grrr
<mdke> koreans aren't bad either
<mdke> translation machines
<LaserJock> I'll have to go down there and crack the whip ;-)
<Madpilot> yeah, except that I can't get intelligible strings out of the ko files, or the Chinese ones... 
<Madpilot> anyway, Packaging_sv.png is up
<mdke> getting it
<mdke> Madpilot: is it the script that has the problem with the chinese fonts, or inkscape?
<Madpilot> my whole system, it looks like
<mdke> did you try copying the strings from help.u.c?
<Madpilot> not yet - I'd try that
<mdke> man the packaging guide is a snip at $6.29
<mdke> I wonder if Lulu thinks it is lower quality than the others
<Madpilot> hmm, where is the non-English stuff at help.u.c, mdke?
<mdke> Madpilot: substitute C in the url for the language code (zh_CN, ko)
<Madpilot> ah
<mdke> or if you want the index, index.zh_CN.html
<Madpilot> wtf? gnome-panel just went nuts on me...
<Madpilot> ...and again. Hopefully it's settled down now... :|
<Madpilot> I'm going to re-install ubuntu-desktop and that mass of non-English fonts I always delete, see if that gets me useful Chinese & Korean display
<mdke> ah, possibly
<mdke> LaserJock: so which are missing languages?
<mdke> Italian Desktop Guide has it, at least in my control panel
<LaserJock> Ubuntus paketeringguide  
<LaserJock> Guia para Servidores Ubuntu
<mdke> those both have it in my control panel
<mdke> are you sure?
<LaserJock> Guia Kubuntu Desktop
<mdke> must be a bug
<mdke> stupid lulu
<LaserJock> it's blank here
<mdke> yeah, I see the problem
* mdke files a bug :D
<LaserJock> yay!
<Madpilot> does Lulu actually have a bugzilla or something similar?
<LaserJock> or a Mattzilla ;-)
<mdke> Madpilot: forum
<Madpilot> close enough
<Madpilot> OK, reinstalling that 100Mb of non-eng fonts has given me useable ko & zh fonts
<mdke> \o/, as LaserJock would say
<Madpilot> and made a giant mess of my font listings again, but whatever...
<mdke> nice one
<LaserJock> I learned \o/ not too long ago
<LaserJock> I think it's great
<mdke> me too
<Madpilot> http://www.warbard.ca/temp/Ubuntu_Covers/UDG_zh_CN.png & UDG_ko.png both up
<mdke> oh, rock. Now to find out which guide is guide
<LaserJock> hehe
* mdke gives up trying to find UDG_ko
<Madpilot> http://www.warbard.ca/temp/Ubuntu_Covers/KDG_ko.png
<Madpilot> mdke, http://www.warbard.ca/temp/Ubuntu_Covers/UDG_ko.png
<mdke> i found the image, just not the book
<mdke> I will go by process of elimination
<LaserJock> mdke: so lulu.com/ubuntu-doc is ready for people to start ordering?
<mdke> LaserJock: hope so. You think we should order a final test book?
<LaserJock> no, I was just wondering when I could tell my Grandpa to go pick up a copy of the PG ;-)
<mdke> Madpilot: something is wrong with the UDG_zh_CN.png (it has a massive Ubuntu logo coming out the right hand side
<Madpilot> mdke, I hit the wrong button in Inkscape. Just a sec.
<mdke> np
<Madpilot> new UDG_zh_CN.png up
<mdke> ah, stupid lulu can't handle the fonts on the spine. Oh well
<Madpilot> for the non-Latin alphabet stuff?
<mdke> yeah, it just comes up blank I think
<Madpilot> http://www.warbard.ca/temp/Ubuntu_Covers/Packaging_ko.png
<mdke> no biggie
<mdke> man that's hot: http://www.lulu.com/content/324256
<LaserJock> hmm, what is that?
<LaserJock> is it the PG?
<mdke> not wholly sure
<mdke> I think it is Chinese Desktop Guide
<Madpilot> mdke, Language string is blank there too
<Madpilot> that's ko
<Madpilot> Korean
<mdke> sure?
<Madpilot> actually, no, it's Chinese. Sorry
<mdke> I think the ones with "UBuntu" are chinese
<LaserJock> I was trying to figure out by page number, but it's hard to tell
<mdke> korean packaging guide now up
<Madpilot> yeah, the ko ones are pure Korean script, the Chinese ones are mixed for some reason
<LaserJock> \o/ I can't read it but it is cool :-)
<Madpilot> http://www.warbard.ca/temp/Ubuntu_Covers/ServerGuide_ko.png
<mdke> no wonder I can't find the korean desktop guide, it isn't there
<LaserJock> how many translations did the server guide get done in?
<mdke> must have forgotten to upload it
<mdke> LaserJock: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MatthewEast/CompleteBookTranslations
<LaserJock> ah great
<Madpilot> http://www.warbard.ca/temp/Ubuntu_Covers/ServerGuide_zh_CN.png
<Madpilot> which is, I think, the last of the covers for now?
<mdke> I think you're right
<Madpilot> yay
<mdke> Madpilot: thanks so much
<Madpilot> no problem.
<Madpilot> for next time, we need to get robotgeek to finish his script, it works only for the UDG omf files right now
<mdke> right.
<mdke> there are likely to be more languages to come :)
<Madpilot> during Dapper, or for Edgy? (do we keep publishing translations during the life of the release?
<mdke> yeah, more for Dapper
<Madpilot> OK. Keep me posted. I should also write up a short howto on producing the covers, and stick a bunch of the SVG files on the wiki somewhere
<mdke> Madpilot: will do.
* mdke just uploading last book
<LaserJock> mwuahahaha
<LaserJock> that was my "doc team rules... and will take over the world" laugh :-)
<mdke> we are pretty badass, it has to be said
<LaserJock> heck yeah
<Madpilot> yay us! ;)
<mdke> .... and I'm spent
<mdke> no idea how many combinations of korean covers and book I've just uploaded
<mdke> let's hope the right ones
* LaserJock feels his  head deflate as he looks at all the crap he wants to do during edgy
<mdke> hehe
<Madpilot> mdke, might want to ping one of the ko translators for a sanity check :)
<crimsun> "wants to" or "has to"?
<crimsun> I haven't even had time to spec out what I'd like in Edgy
<mdke> will do
<LaserJock> crimsun: I could always pull an  \sh but "wants to" is starting to turn into "has to" for sure.
<Madpilot> mdke, all the prices in Lulu seem to still be listed as "from $0.00"?
<mdke> Madpilot: yeah, it must be because you can download them for free
<Madpilot> ah
<LaserJock> that's so cool
<mdke> slightly confusing, but still
<Madpilot> mdke, can we change the order the items are listed in? Put the English translations first, say?
<LaserJock> yeah and group them by doc
<LaserJock> gosh we are picky
<Madpilot> heh
<mdke> that would be very nice, but I'm not sure
<Madpilot> OK, just a thought
<mdke> oh great, we can
<mdke> more than one column too, if we want
<LaserJock> cool
<mdke> how to order languages?
<mdke> and do I sort by language first, or by book?
<Madpilot> by book, I'd say
<LaserJock> hmm, good question
<mdke> so all the UDGs first, then all the KDGs, etc?
<Madpilot> I think so
<LaserJock> I'd say book, but then it would makes it harder for people wanting to look at all material in their language
* mdke hmms
<Madpilot> UDG-KDG-XDG-Server-Packaging?
<LaserJock> yeah, yeah. put me last ;p
<mdke> for now, I'm going to do it by language
<LaserJock> I guess it would come down to this, do you think people will want to look for a particular doc or for what's available in their language?
<mdke> I can't be bothered to work out which is which of the koreans again
<Madpilot> mdke, fair enough ;)
<LaserJock> hehe, that's a good rationale
<mdke> http://www.lulu.com/ubuntu-doc
<mdke> so hot
<Madpilot> looks great
<LaserJock> mdke: sabdfl needs that URL :-)
<mdke> we'll send him a free book or something ;)
<Madpilot> so does The Fridge
<mdke> I'll send a few emails, after checking with the translators that everything is ok
<LaserJock> mdke: we should have the doc team sign it before we send it to him ;-)
<mdke> aww
<LaserJock> Rock Stars ;-)
<LaserJock> hahaha
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-doc:Madpilot] : Ubuntu Documentation Team - general discussion - backlog at http://people.ubuntu.com/~fabbione/irclogs | Website http://doc.ubuntu.com | Get involved: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam | SVN - https://docteam.ubuntu.com/repos | Please observe the Ubuntu community code of conduct @ http://www.ubuntu.com/community/conduct | Next meeting: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/MeetingAgenda | Ubuntu's docs in dead-tree format:http://www.l
<LaserJock> have other distros done anything like this? I think it is quite a cool idea
<Madpilot> ...bloody character limit in /topic...
<LaserJock> hehe, we could probably ditch the Next meeting: bit for now
<LaserJock> or at least put a date
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-doc:Madpilot] : Ubuntu Documentation Team http://doc.ubuntu.com or https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam | backlog at http://people.ubuntu.com/~fabbione/irclogs | SVN - https://docteam.ubuntu.com/repos | Please observe the Ubuntu CoC @ http://www.ubuntu.com/community/conduct | Next meeting: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/MeetingAgenda | Ubuntu's docs in dead-tree format: http://www.lulu.com/ubuntu-doc
<Madpilot> there
<LaserJock> hmm, anybody know what the propsed Ubuntu Reference Manual would be about?
<Burgundavia> LaserJock: reference manual?
<mdke> no idea, it's bhuvan's idea
<LaserJock> Burgundavia: it's on the meeting agenda
<LaserJock> there are a few ideas I had but since I'm doing the Developer's Reference I don't think I'll have time in Edgy :(
<LaserJock> what did you guys think about the "why don't you use QA like ubuntuguide.org" bug comment?
<mdke> I didn't see that
<mdke> fortunately :)
<LaserJock> it was at the end of that fax bug
<LaserJock> "In contrast, I find the Ubuntu documentation unfriendly, overly technical, and frustrating to find what I want."
<mdke> see ot
<mdke> it
* mdke sighs
<LaserJock> I'm wondering if this guy is way off or if he has a point
<mdke> bit of both, I guess
<LaserJock> I really don't see the "overly technical" part
<Madpilot> well, the current UDG is closer to ubuntuguide.org in style than most of the stuff on the wiki, I think
<crimsun> LaserJock: url? (I just now subbed)
<LaserJock> I wonder if the comment was mostly for the wiki
<LaserJock> crimsun: https://launchpad.net/products/ubuntu-doc/+bug/48298
<Ubugtu> Malone bug 48298 in ubuntu-doc "There is no mention of how to fax" [Wishlist,Confirmed]  
<LaserJock> last comment
<crimsun> I definitely don't see the "overly technical" hint
<mdke> I hate qa
<mdke> what is the difference between 1. How do I install a fax?, and 2. Installing a fax
<crimsun> ...unless he's arguing there's no sense in explaining the differences? [e.g., http://doc.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/desktopguide/C/music.html] 
<LaserJock> I guess he is mainly saying putting it into more specific sections, "How do I print to Ubuntu from Windows?" as opposed to looking in a "Printing" section
<LaserJock> but I'm guessing that search funtions would help that
<crimsun> but the more specific one gets, the more drilling down occurs
<crimsun> even if you were to have "How do I print in Ubuntu?" and then "How do I print to Ubuntu from Windows?", it's still "How do I print?"
<crimsun> welcome to hierarchy hell
<LaserJock> although I did find ubunguguide.org fast since I'd just use FF's find to get what I wanted
<LaserJock> it wasn't really informative as a guide though
<LaserJock> it was just quick and dirty
<LaserJock> which I think is tempting but people really should understand why they are doing what they are doing
<mdke> sure, it's tricky to make stuff informative AND accessible
<mdke> it can be done though
<crimsun> do we need different perspectives, like "user manual" vs. "technical manual"?
<crimsun> [imo too much work] 
<mdke> you're right, i think
<mdke> also because we can make docs which are suitable for both, I hoep
<LaserJock> hehe, I thought "technical manual" was call RTFM ;-)
* mdke sleeps
<crimsun> LaserJock: it can be
<Madpilot> night, mdke 
<crimsun> 'night mdke
<mdke> night
<LaserJock> cya mdke 
<LaserJock> I'd like to see more advanced user docs, but I just don't know how feasible that is
<Burgundavia> it was always my opinion that advanced users are already well served by help
<Burgundavia> grandma is the hard use case
<LaserJock> yes, but to be honest I'm not much help to grandma
<LaserJock> so it is easier for me to think about people like me
<LaserJock> but you're absolutely right
<Burgundavia> things like the packaging docs are good things
<LaserJock> I'm still stuck on the idea of having an introductory guide to Bash and Python scripting
<Burgundavia> python in Ubuntu would be a great guide
<Burgundavia> make it a little bit marketing, by talking about how Ubuntu rocks for Python
<LaserJock> right
<LaserJock> and I've noticed AppleScript on OS X
<LaserJock> and then new Automator thing
<LaserJock> so people can actually use scripting to do "normal" things on their computer
<LaserJock> I think that is pretty powerful
<LaserJock> I was talking to our sys admin and he was saying that he helps people alot just by taking a couple minutes to write a script that automates stuff people were doing by hand
<LaserJock> Burgundavia: people keep bringing up "WTF, why does Ubuntu ship python by default". I'd like to show them a reason. But maybe that's too ambitious for now
<Burgundavia> LaserJock: if it is specced well, you will not need to write everything
<LaserJock> well, I might try to spec it out and see what people think
<LaserJock> it is Edgy after all, we gotta get some crack in ;-)
<LaserJock> ok, I'm off to try to convince an undergrad to work for me this summer :)
<Burgundavia> hey jsgotangco
<Burgundavia> jsgotangco: have you had a chance to chat with Joel yet?
<jsgotangco> yeah last saturday
<jsgotangco> he's still in school and currently having a dilemma on pursuing development and studies, i said focus on school
<jsgotangco> since its about to start in a week here
<mgalvin> woohoo dead tree docs :)
<Madpilot> with shiny covers, too ;)
<mgalvin> yea, they look great, excellent work everybody!
<mgalvin> so people can actually order they now?
<mgalvin> s/they/them/
<Madpilot> apparently. Matt East has been taking care of the actual Lulu storefront stuff
<mgalvin> cool
* mgalvin adds the info to UWN Issue #2 :)
* jsgotangco needs to add up content for next UWN
<Burgundavia> mgalvin: very special issue, lol
<Burgundavia> mgalvin: not certain that humour translates out of north america
<mgalvin> Burgundavia: haha, jdub wrote that
<jsgotangco> i dont get it myself
<Burgundavia> jsgotangco: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Very_special_episode
<Burgundavia> it is an 80s TV reference
<jsgotangco> heh let's make every week then special
<jsgotangco> lol
<mgalvin> :)
<jsgotangco> im sure a distro like edubuntu can produce tons of specials
<jsgotangco> haha
<mgalvin> jsgotangco: will be cool when you are in paris, you could be the summit reporter while you are there ;)
<mgalvin> are you going there for the whole thing?
<jsgotangco> "this week, we tackle the life-changing episodes of people in sub-saharan africa who got to use edubuntu for the first time"
<jsgotangco> yeah when i get my visa this week
<mgalvin> ha
<mgalvin> cool
<jsgotangco> hopefully i get to finish all my TODOs in my list before the trip
<jsgotangco> or else i'll see myself working in the plane lol
<Burgundavia> oh joy, revert war on DVD:RIP
<robitaille> on sounder?
<Burgundavia> no, wiki page
<Burgundavia> I change the installation method away from apt-get and the "creator" reverted
<robitaille> :)
<Burgundavia> so I reverted and added a note
<Burgundavia> ugh, what should I do with these: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/HoaryBeagleInstallHowto?highlight=%28apt-get+install%29
<Burgundavia> shall I create a Category504Only ?
<Burgundavia> mdke_, jsgotangco ^
<Burgundavia> Laser_away: deal with this wiki page https://wiki.ubuntu.com/HowToBuildDebianPackagesFromScratch?highlight=%28apt-get+install%29
<jsgotangco> robitaille: ping?
<robitaille> jsgotangco:  pong
<jsgotangco> robitaille: hey i just have one q if you're familiar with it
<jsgotangco> robitaille: what makes a software to be part of "restricted"?
<robitaille> non-free, but supported somewhat   http://www.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/components
<robitaille> currently the only things in there I believes are some binary only drivers and kernel modules
<jsgotangco> as opposed to multiverse that is non-free and unsupported?
<robitaille> yes.
<jsgotangco> argghh i missed that page entirely, thanks!
<robitaille> interestingly  both my computers don't need restricted, so I usally remove it from my sources.list, remove the packages, and that make my kernel upgrades a bit smaller  (and my computers a bit more free and open :) )
<robitaille> I still can't believe the package vrms exists
<mdke> Madpilot: I'm adding a "to be done" section to the wiki page, turns out I may have missed a few
<Madpilot> ok
<Madpilot> mdke, what's the URL of that page off your own wiki page? I've managed to loose it...
<mdke> Madpilot: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MatthewEast/CompleteBookTranslations
<mdke> just uploading UDG_hr now
<Madpilot> I can have the cover for you in a minute or two
<Madpilot> ...if Hungarian is hr, what's hu? thought that was Hungarian...
<mdke> oops
<mdke> hr is croatian
<Madpilot> ah
<mdke> that's the one we want
<mdke> russian seems to be ok too, except there is a strange error with the pdf
<Madpilot> OK, so I've got the right strings, I just thought it was a different language ;)
<Madpilot> http://www.warbard.ca/temp/Ubuntu_Covers/UDG_hr.png
<mdke> thanks dude. I'm going to work on russian and polish now
<Madpilot> OK, ru & pl covers coming up :)
<mdke> i'm not sure which guides are ready from them, presumably at least UDG
<Madpilot> I'm doing ru & pl UDG covers now, let me know tomorrow if we need more/different ones
<mdke> ok, thanks a lot
<Madpilot> UDG_ru & UDG_pl both up
<mdke> great, I'll get those sorted, thanks matey
<Madpilot> np
<Madpilot> it's almost 0230 here, I'm going to crash.
<mdke> yeah, good night
<Madpilot> email me if we need more covers done
<Madpilot> I'm also going to stick a howto on the wiki somewhere so people can do their own :)
<jsgotangco> yeah
<mdke> that would be great
<jsgotangco> wow they're big
<Madpilot> jsgotangco, 300dpi images
<Madpilot> or rather, once Lulu resizes them, they become 300dpi images
<rob> hi guys
<rob> mdke, well done on lulu
<Madpilot> hi rob
<mdke> rob: thanks, and Madpilot too for the covers. Thanks for the idea
<rob> yes, Madpilot too!
<rob> did you get the patch I emailed?
<mdke> i saw it on the list
<rob> ah ok, good
<jsgotangco> yeah print requires 300dpi
<Madpilot> jsgotangco, at a minimum, yeah
<jsgotangco> some even require bleed
<jsgotangco> mdke: can't you drop by in paris even for a day?
<mdke> when is it?
<jsgotangco> 18-23
<jsgotangco> err 19 rather
<jsgotangco> 18 is the dinner
<jsgotangco> i arrive on the 17th
<mdke> hmm. I'm picking up my gf from the airport that weekend, then working that week
<mdke> it'll have to be another time
<mdke> man there is gonna be some serious flamage on that last sounder thread
<jsgotangco> ethical ubuntu?
<jsgotangco> heh
<jsgotangco> i could only laugh at the irony of the spec
<jsgotangco> mgalvin: hmmm these mdz emails about the newsletter seems to hint on making us do it most of the time and have little docteam work heh
<jsgotangco> post-release braindumping lol
<mgalvin> just what we need, more work ;)
<mgalvin> its cool though, they are good ideas
<mgalvin> i think as it grows more people will probably
<mgalvin> help
<mgalvin> in which we will need to better organize it as well
<jeffsch> perhaps put it on the docteam site
<mgalvin> i was thinking of a developer of the week, something like upload stats and such... but i think it would be seb128 every week :)
<mgalvin> jeffsch: we should link to it from there
<mdke> jsgotangco: now's your chance to ask jeffsch about the styleguide license
<jeffsch> and if you put a docteam member of the week, it would always be mdke
<jsgotangco> mdke: actually we talk everyday, it just didnt get into my mind
<jsgotangco> jeffsch: do you remember putting the styleguide under Publid Domain?
<jeffsch> jsgotangco: https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-doc/2006-January/004798.html
<mdke> how fast was that
<mdke> jeffsch: thoughts on this gender convention question?
<jsgotangco> lol ok thanks for reminding me
<jsgotangco> january!
<jsgotangco> long time ago!
* jsgotangco plans to clean up the cobwebs this weekend
<jeffsch> mdke: it will be difficult to come to a consensus
<jeffsch> there are so many different ways to handle it
<jeffsch> some are very easy, like "he" means "she" too
<jeffsch> others require rewriting the paragraph
<jeffsch> plus each culture has its biases
<jeffsch> plus each translator....
<jeffsch> on and on
<jsgotangco> yeah
<jsgotangco> ours for example is very maternal...
<mdke> jeffsch: i'm used to "he" means "she" myself
<jsgotangco> we dont address the gender explicitly at all but its implied in some phrases
<mdke> i meant just for English really, then we can allow translators to go their own way
<jsgotangco> i think the bug was more on Rosetta rather than the document as well
<jsgotangco> (how rosetta allows for such in the system)
<mdke> well, more or less.
<jsgotangco> but then they're strings..
<jeffsch> personally, i think when you put a note at the beginning that says "he" means "she", then you are copping out
<mdke> I think we should talk about English though, rather than the bug
<jsgotangco> yeah
<mdke> jeffsch: "copping out" being a bad thing?
<jeffsch> you're saying "yeah, i know there's a "she", but I can't be bothered to accomodate her
<jeffsch> mdke: yeah. it means being lazy or unconcerned
<mdke> we could invent a new pronoun then, which means both
<mdke> I don't really think it does mean that though
<jeffsch> some writing books have whole chapters on the gender thing
<jeffsch> it's an issue that is still in flux
<jeffsch> a single method has not yet been settled
<mdke> do you think we should set a policy for it, or not worry? Not doing so might be doubly copping out
<jeffsch> ideally, there should be a policy as well as examples on the various ways of handling it
<jsgotangco> jeffsch: not being old school but does strunk & white have anything about this? i dont remember at all
<jeffsch> it could probably take a chapter in the styleguide
<jeffsch> jsgotangco: hold on, i'll check
<mdke> i think we should deal with it
* jsgotangco checks his copy too
<jeffsch> on page 60 of my copy
* mdke has a look in some law books
<jsgotangco> "Alternatively, put all controversial nouns in the plural and avoid the choice of sex altogether"
<jsgotangco> "although you may find your prose sounding more general and diffuse as a result"
<jsgotangco> its mostly geared towards the male gender though
* mdke marvels that a ship's master is uniformly referred to as "he" without any kind of apology
<jsgotangco> "The use of he as a pronoun for nouns embracing both genders is a simple, practical convention rooted in the beginnings fo the English language"
<jeffsch> "Currently however, many writers find the use of generic he or his to rename indefinite antecedents limiting or offensive>"
* mdke catches one legal textbook book using "she" as generic pronoun
<jsgotangco> check the author lol
<jsgotangco> kidding
<mdke> this one uses he or she randomly
<jsgotangco> yes its also recommended to mix
<jsgotangco> to make it not sound repetitive and boring  too
<jsgotangco> we'll have to write in the 3rd person
<jsgotangco> or plural
<jsgotangco> but that is avoiding it altogether
* mdke doesn't really care, but thinks we should have a policy
<jsgotangco> i cannot say really, it is quite hard to describe a lot of things in the 3rd person
<jsgotangco> well not so hard, but depends on the style of the writer as well
<jeffsch> are there any specific instances in our current docs where it could be and issue?
<jsgotangco> well instructions per se are 3rd person
<jeffsch> or was it just the bug thing?
<jsgotangco> the bug is more of rosetta not havign the facility for such
<jsgotangco> rather than the document
<jeffsch> hmmm... is there a facility for a translator to add translator notes to a doc?
<jsgotangco> hmmm come to think of it
<jsgotangco> i dont see it
<jsgotangco> only translator-credits
<jsgotangco> but *only* if there is a provision for such
<jeffsch> perhaps an empty para in an appropriate place in the english docs. the translators can leave it empty or stick in some notes
<mdke> yes, that won't be a problem
<mdke> I'm more concerned about what to do for the English :)
<jeffsch> perhaps we can cop out and ask ubuntu-women to write that section of the styleguide for us ;)
<mdke> not a bad idea to get their views actually
<jsgotangco> hey that's a good idea
<jsgotangco> they're asking for guidance anyway
<jsgotangco> let's give 'em work
<jeffsch> last ask them rather than giving them 
<jeffsch> come up with a preliminary spec and ask for input and advice
<LaserJock> umm, so does the doc team offically handle the newsletter?
<LaserJock> I'm getting so confused by all the newlettery things running about
<Burgwork> LaserJock, you around?
<mdke> he's right here!
<jsgotangco> even though its basically me, mgalvin and Riddell who started it, anyone can actually dive in
<Burgwork> mdke, right, just noticed that
<mgalvin> i just figured it was best to associate it the the doc team at large since it is docs, although its not meant to force anyone to anything
<LaserJock> I like the idea, personally
<Burgwork> yep, and the marketing team is busy with other, useless, things
<LaserJock> associating with a team is a good idea, IMO
<mdke> this would be ideal for the marketing team
<mdke> but I'm starting to get the impression there isn't really one
<mdke> corey forwarded them the email about the newsletter, no responses
<mgalvin> there is one, they just don't do anything... ok i will stop being mean ;)
<jsgotangco> well
<Burgwork> they do, they just don't integrate with the rest of us
<LaserJock> ok, but the individual derivatives have there own newsletter, right? but this one is sort of the Ubntu project as a whole?
<mgalvin> i think jenda is part of that team, we started talking the other day, i've got to catch up with him again
<jsgotangco> no the derivative newsletters are history
<jsgotangco> were just merging everything
<jeffsch> who is the intended audience?
<LaserJock> jsgotangco: history :(
<mgalvin> jeffsch: internal management, developers and community at large 
<jsgotangco> yeah like we're issue 1 and we got closed heh
<jsgotangco> at least kubuntu got to issue 2
<Burgwork> mgalvin, jenda is indeed part of that team
<jenda> me?
<jenda> what team? sorry sooo busy... (with ubuntu now)
<apokryphos> mdke, Burgwork: https://wiki.kubuntu.org/CommonQuestions
<apokryphos> feedback greatly appreciated =)
<jenda> (ping me if you need me)
<mgalvin> jenda: i was just saying i need to catch up with you at some point to talk about the newletter/marking relationship
<mgalvin> i am busy too, so not right now ;)
<jenda> OK :)
<jsgotangco> its also one way to jumpstart the marketing team
<Burgwork> yep, as long it doesn't fall on the floor
* mgalvin gets lunch
<mgalvin> bbl
<mdke> apokryphos: will do. Some structure would work, dividing the page up a bit
<LaserJock> Burgwork: btw, I'm not sure what to do with that packaging wiki page
<Burgwork> LaserJock, can it be killed and redirected to your packaging guide?
<apokryphos> mdke: there is a little, but it's tough to do completely as it's too large for no sections, too small for general sections.
<mdke> hmm
<LaserJock> Burgwork: well, that has been something on my mind. I'm not sure if the PG should obsolete wiki pages. I like having devs and wannabes use the wiki pages for braindumps and stuff which I can then clean up and put in the PG
<apokryphos> over time that would probably be easier (if it grew), but at the moment it's not a s clear I'd say.
<LaserJock> but many of the pages right now are wrong, for the wrong release, or are really not needed anymore
<mdke> apokryphos: it mustn't grow, I think it's already too big tbh. If it grows, you'll just start making another duplicate guide
<jenda> Can you folks help me get the Czech team included here? http://www.ubuntu.com/support/local?action=show&redirect=support%2Fsupportoptions%2Flocal
<jenda> who should i contact?
<apokryphos> mdke: what's the other appropriate guide that you think it would be a duplicate of?
<mdke> jenda: I've been doing that recently
<mdke> apokryphos: like, all documentation
<jenda> So you could do that if I give you the necessary facts?
<apokryphos> mdke: it's not the same at all. This guide links to other documentation; it works as a generalized faq to sections of the wiki and the ubuntu site
<mdke> jenda: yes. msg me them, or post to loco-contacts
<mdke> apokryphos: the problem we have when large guides start springing up like this is that a user looks at the resources available and doesn't know where to click
<mdke> that's bad
<apokryphos> it's perhaps misleading to view it as a large guide, as I said. It's a guide that tells you just where to look
<mdke> the size doesn't really matter
<jsgotangco> good night all
<mdke> the problem arises when the user sees 5 different resources, instead of one
<jeffsch> jsgotangco: sleep well
<Burgwork> LaserJock, then can you do that?
<apokryphos> this can serve more as a guide to many pages of the wiki, even
<mdke> apokryphos: like UserDocumentation does, you think?
<LaserJock> Burgwork: I can certainly try :-)
<apokryphos> mdke: it's good, but it's not nearly the same; I'd say it was too general and certainlly couldn't act as a full FAQ to the wiki and users on IRC
<jsgotangco> wow that's a pretty nice faq though
<apokryphos> the search is just about as good as a search can be on a wiki, but it's not quite as perfect, or as readable/accessible 
<Burgwork> LaserJock, sure
<apokryphos> I think a link to that on UserDocumentation would be decent enough, and I'd say it's a lot more patched up now (still open to particular feedback though)
<apokryphos> ah, mounting windoze partitions; gotta add that in.
<LaserJock> boy there's a lot of old cruft and crappy wiki pages laying around :/
<Burgwork> LaserJock, yep
<mdke> apokryphos: my advice is to confine it to only a few questions, like 15 max 
<apokryphos> why?
<apokryphos> mdke: as long as organisation is maintained when it gets larger, I think it'd be just fine
<mdke> because I think that otherwise it will simply become an attempt to replace existing documentation, and will be confusing to read
<apokryphos> much better to have the information available and for it to take someone a little longer to find on the page (though I don't think this is a necessary consequence) than to not have the answer available at all
<mdke> sigh
<apokryphos> mdke: I can't imagine how you'd argue that it replaces existing documentation when it explicitly links out to it all in practically every answer
<mdke> ok, so s/documentation/index
<LaserJock> apokryphos: I think the problem is this, there is lots of entry points to documentation throw at users
<apokryphos> if the index is as it is (which I don't think is wrong) it follows as necessary to have a more complete guide (or index, in the fuller sense) with these things available
<mdke> apokryphos: right, but right now, your page isn't an index at all, it's half way between
<apokryphos> LaserJock: for the most quintessential questions (the page being an FAQ in itself) there isn't
<mdke> but the whole point we subcategorised the index was that we were going in the opposite direction to this
<apokryphos> the subcategories are fine and dandy, but as I said, they don't nearly provide the information as readily
<apokryphos> and for many of those it's also the case that you simply wouldn't find them from any of the subcategories
<mdke> apokryphos: yes. All you are saying is you disagree with what we have discussed a million times and come to a different view
<apokryphos> having simply a few subcategories cannot be the solution
<apokryphos> I didn't notice us discussing it a million times, and I'm not just saying I disagree (I'm providing substantiation) 
<mdke> apokryphos: "us" = the team, rather than you and us
<apokryphos> if you disagree with my reasoning then that's another issue for you to pick up, but it's not the case that I'm just blindly disagreeing; I hardly want to argue for no reason :)
<apokryphos> ok
<mdke> another thing I'm concerned about is duplication of this document - http://www.ubuntu.com/support/faq
<apokryphos> not quite a duplication
<apokryphos> (at all)
<jjesse> stupdi question, but i always forget what packages i need to validate and also build the doc
<apokryphos> that provides the answer to a few (very few questions), whereas this is a full-blown wiki faq
<LaserJock> apokryphos: but again, I'm seeing lots of different places to get somewhat similar info. It is confusing to me and I think it could be quite confusing to new users
<apokryphos> LaserJock: this provides link to and into the wiki; the fact that there are multiple places to get the info is a simple fact, this merely directs into it
<mdke> apokryphos: actually, as far as I can see, lots of your answers are on that page
<apokryphos> it's not as if I'm creating another wiki, I'm linking to parts into the wiki
<apokryphos> some are, some aren't. That page is not a wiki.
<apokryphos> I have to shoot off to dinner, I can continue discussion when I'm back :)
<LaserJock> apokryphos: right, I understand that, but we still have multiple places to go to find that info
<mdke> apokryphos: well, actually, that page is a wiki
<mdke> it's on a wiki, at any rate
<mvirkkil> mdke: just dropped in to say hi, and idle :)
<mdke> just to get rid of the magic "wiki" word
<apokryphos> editable by regular users; I thought that was presupposed 
<mdke> mvirkkil: welcome back :)
<mvirkkil> mdke: Thanks :)
<apokryphos> anyhow, I really have to go; back later guys
<mdke> me too, cyall
<LaserJock> apokryphos: it's got good info though, good work on that
<LaserJock> cya mdke 
<jjesse> sorry dropped my connection, what packages are needed to validate and also build the docs?
<LaserJock> docbook-xsl?
<jjesse> libxml2-utils
<apokryphos> back guys
<mdke> jjesse: apt-get build-dep kubuntu-docs
<apokryphos> to clarify my thoughts, and to avoid spiralling to an endless pit: (i) I do not think this is a duplication of effort. I do not see ubuntuguide as appropriate (I can expand), the wiki search as appropriate, or the ubuntu.com FAQ. Each for reasons I can clarify
<apokryphos> I think the guide should welcome other FAQ content as long as it is a FAQ, it's kept manageable and organised
<apokryphos> I'm not sure of its role with regard to the entire wiki and its structure, and you guys are the boss, so if you really want it a particular way (hidden or not mentioned there) then I'll be fine with that
<apokryphos> Needless to say, I think this is the *exact* FAQ that could shape up to be i.e. in an IRC channel topic, a link to provide to friends. I think it greatly complements the wiki rather than duplicates effort anywhere, and I think that should be its aim
<apokryphos> ok, just added mounting/xgl+compiz faq
<LaserJock> apokryphos: I guess you should probably link the the ubuntu.com FAQ first off and then don't do any Questions that are the same
<apokryphos> LaserJock: not really because I wouldn't want the faq to be "check there for the answer first, if it's not there read this faq"
<LaserJock> but if ubuntu has an offical FAQ that should be the first place people should go
<LaserJock> the wiki is fine and dandy, but I'd rather get the answer straight from the horse's mouth if I can
<apokryphos> I don't see the problem with having the information there too. Having to first check through one faq, and *then* check through another is annoying
<apokryphos> the horse's mouth is good, and we should try to link to it where that's relevant
<apokryphos> for additional information etc. That faq is linked to below under support options
<apokryphos> but I don't want to get into a whole debate on the validity of wikis as mediums for support/advice
<apokryphos> that FAQ is a little outdated, I'll email the relevant people later if I get round to it
<apokryphos> ......unless someone here has editing privileges?
<LaserJock> I think there are people who do
<LaserJock> I know that a ubuntu-website ML is in the works so people can talk about the website
<mdke> apokryphos: why don't you work on improving the faq on the website? We can update it for you.
<mdke> merge the two projects
<apokryphos> mdke: I think that resolves a lot of issues
<apokryphos> still doesn't have the easyness of it being a freely editable wiki, which I think can help
<apokryphos> also wouldn't it be questionable to reference practical (but things of questionable legality) on that page?
<LaserJock> no
<LaserJock> linking to RestrictedFormats for  instance is a good thing
<mdke> well, don't be illegal obviously
<apokryphos> giving advice on how to install some of those restricted formats is of questionable legality, though
<LaserJock> telling people to go to RestrictedFormats has no questionable legality
<apokryphos> though if recommending the whole of RestrictedFormats page is fine, then there's no issue there
<LaserJock> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UserDocumentation also has some of the CommonQuestion items
<apokryphos> yup
<LaserJock> I like a lot of those items apokryphos, but my thought is that I'd rather see them folded into the ubuntu.com FAQ and UserDocumentation, but that's just IMO
<apokryphos> LaserJock: it'd be nice to get all of that information as easily accessible (regardless of its location), I believe, too. I think there are a few drawbacks to having it woven into the ubuntu.com FAQ but I'll leave that up to you guys
<apokryphos> having it folded into UserDocumentation could work, but I think that page servers more as an introductory page to the entire wiki, whereas the CommonQuestions page acts simply as an FAQ to new users
<LaserJock> well, my thinking is this. If they really are FAQ then people shouldn't have to go to the wiki to find them.
<apokryphos> but having them on the wiki gives a lot of advantages
<LaserJock> like?
<apokryphos> and the answers it provides are very often linking right into the wiki
<apokryphos> that anyone can edit it
<apokryphos> and others (like me) can just help with organising it later
<LaserJock> my experience has been that once you let anyone edit it the quality starts going downhill
<apokryphos> I really don't want to argue here at all (I do apologise); I'm seriously just trying to help, and offering an idea
<apokryphos> LaserJock: so let's try to stop that, with this page :)
<LaserJock> no, that's fine
<LaserJock> you are helping
<LaserJock> but sometimes we have to work through what the best way to present the info is, and how to go about things
<tuxmaniac> sorry to interrupt. apokryphos discussions does not mean opposition.. It is just a way of getting others views and chosing the best
<apokryphos> I don't doubt it
<LaserJock> we have been going over and over a bit with this though
<apokryphos> yes
<apokryphos> hm, how do I make "x y" link to xy?
<LaserJock> hmm, I'm not sure, I'm just a casual wiki user
<apokryphos> nevermind, got it
<apokryphos> ok, added a few more parent sections and did a bit of restructuring, while adding more questions. Should be more accessible now.
<jjesse> l
<Burgwork> mgalvin, are you aware of the wikipedia signpost?
<mgalvin> Burgwork: huh? nope
<Burgwork> mgalvin, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Wikipedia_Signpost
<mgalvin> looking
<Burgwork> they have been very successful in running a newsletter
<mgalvin> cool, i'll have to take a closer look in a bit, busy at work atm
<mgalvin> Burgwork: thanks for pointing me at it
<Burgwork> mgalvin, np
<Burgwork> mdke, hmm, -uk contact issues?
<mdke> Burgwork: not that I know of. I'm just surprised he randomly emailed the loco-list without discussing it on the -uk list first
<mgalvin> man the wiki seems slow
<mdke> yeah it is
<mdke> too many pages
<Burgwork> mdke, that was what I meant
<LaserJock> mdke: can we make string changes in the dapper docs for -updates
<mdke> LaserJock: erm.
<mdke> no, i'm pretty sure we can't
<mdke> dapper uploads automatically get pushed to rosetta, so it would break translations
<LaserJock> hmm, bummer
<mdke> then again, the packaging guide isn't so widely translated, I'd say that it can be your call
<LaserJock> why would it break translations?
<mdke> well, because new strings will come in
<LaserJock> but if the docs are still being translated post-release isn't that not really a problem
* LaserJock has a clear lack of understand of Rosetta
<mdke> yeah, that's true
<mdke> but you need to make sure that the teams that have translated those strings already know to retranslate them
<mdke> and have time to do so
<LaserJock> ah
<LaserJock> I thought they had a "this string has changed" flag or something
<mdke> well, they'll be untranslated, so it's obvious yeah
<mdke> but they might not look :)
<LaserJock> slackers ;-)
<LaserJock> ok, well I was just going to try to address the bug in the chroot directions that was just on the ML
<mdke> LaserJock: I'm fine with you deciding
<mgalvin> anyone know 'Mav' a polish translator?
<LaserJock> mdke: hehe, thanks a lot. :p 
<mdke> mgalvin: no, why?
<mgalvin> Mav is translating issue 1 into polish and i just wanted to try to catch up with him/her
<mgalvin> i would like to try to organize the page a bit better
<mgalvin> maybe something like UWN/Issue1/LANG
<mdke> mgalvin: I'd suggest you invite translators to publish them on their individual sites
<mdke> mgalvin: we'll be doing that for italian
<mdke> it won't be possible to get everyone to do it in the wiki
<mgalvin> mdke: true, i guess i'll email the translators list and just let them add a simple link to translated versions or something
<mdke> that works too
<rob> oh, have you guys seen this: http://linux.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=06/06/05/1340255
<mgalvin> oh nice
<mgalvin> ooo, and the finally have the new look, neat
<rob> yeah, I noticed that too, all ajax and stuff too
<mgalvin> sweet
<rob> this is encouraging: "Lets hope other distributions follow Ubuntu's lead on this one.."
<rob> I really have to stop quickly checking that site before going to work each morning
<mgalvin> indeed!
* enrico congratulates for the weekly newsletter!
<rob> ok, better go to work
<mdke> slashdotted?
<mdke> w00t
<DBO> slashdot, the only good DDoS
<LaserJock> I made my first /. post for that
<LaserJock> as an Anonymous Coward of course
<mdke> the embedded fonts one?
<LaserJock> yeah
<LaserJock> I couldn't remember exactly, but I thought that was it
<mgalvin> whats the polish lang code?
<crimsun> interesting, I can't secondary-click in epiphany while a page is loading
<DBO> crimsun, seconded
<DBO> but I can if I switch to a different tab
<mdke_> did I miss anything?
<crimsun> < mgalvin> whats the polish lang code?
<crimsun> that's about it, I think
<mdke_> pl
<mgalvin> thanks
<mdke_> thanks crimsun 
<crimsun> np
<mgalvin> hmm, need a second opinion...
<mgalvin> for the issues lang sub-pages, should i use the lang code or the lang name?
<mgalvin> i was leaning toward the code
<crimsun> why not "name (code)"?
<crimsun> oh, for Web 
<mgalvin> yea, on the wiki
* mdke_ doesn't think lang sub pages are a good idea
<mgalvin> UbuntuWeeklyNewsletter/Issue1/pl
<mgalvin> why?
<mdke_> mgalvin: we discussed it already
<mgalvin> only for ones that are hosted on wiki.ubuntu.com
<mgalvin> see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuWeeklyNewsletter/SubmittingTranslations
<mdke_> http://ubuntu.pl/
<mgalvin> well, Mav created it on the wiki :-/
<mdke_> yeah, that's my point
<mdke_> I think translators should be encouraged to integrate with their own sites, because that's where polish speakers go
<mdke_> english speakers will be on the wiki
<mgalvin> i'll have to try and catch up with him and see if he can do that
<mdke_> but this is just my opinion, people should do what they think is best
<mdke_> heya Madpilot 
<Madpilot> hi
<mdke> the lulu thing got slashdotted
<Madpilot> wheee
<mdke> Madpilot: we're just missing the cover for russian server guide, afaics
<Madpilot> OK, I can get that in a bit
<mdke> I'm quite disappointed that Lulu doesn't show us the sales of actual books, but just the total (downloaded and printed)
<crimsun> (complain!)
<mdke> (I did)
<LaserJock> hmm, I'm pretty sure they will have a Mattzilla pretty soon for you
<mdke> http://www.lulu.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=40491
<Burgwork> Madpilot, are you not supposed to be working?
<Madpilot> Burgwork, booked the day off, I'm working most of next weekend
<Burgwork> ah
<LaserJock> lol
<Burgwork> LaserJock, are you amused that the person who is working (and is clearly not) asking somebody else if they are working?
<LaserJock> no, "Am I my brother's keeper?" came to mind
<Madpilot> Burgwork, I should contact your boss and tell him to block IRC's ports on your work server ;)
<Burgwork> right
<Burgwork> first of all, I (and Brett), control the entire IT infrastructure here
<Burgwork> 2nd, I have root on every machine in the office
<mdke> they must be crazy
<Burgwork> heh
<Madpilot> absolutely
<crimsun> help help I'm being oppressed
<mdke> bloody peasant
<LaserJock> Burgwork: is Tim your boss?
<Burgwork> yes, but he is in Calgary, thank the lord
<Burgwork> my boss is Tim's older brother, Daniel
<Madpilot> mdke, http://www.warbard.ca/temp/Ubuntu_Covers/ServerGuide_ru.png
<Madpilot> mdke, I've also update the UDG_ru cover, to use the same typeface as ServerGuide_ru - the Cyrillic looks way better now
<mdke> word
<Burgwork> page
<mvirkkil> mdke: ThomasWaldmann
<mdke> mvirkkil: context?
<mvirkkil> mdke: Argh.. Miss-paste
<mvirkkil> mdke: http://docbook.wikiwikiweb.de
<mdke> ok, cool
<mdke> mvirkkil: so do you want some examples to test with?
<mdke> something hardcore like https://wiki.ubuntu.com/OpenSSL
<mvirkkil> mdke: Urgh.. Well, if you like :) 
<mvirkkil> mdke: I haven't done intensive testing..
<mdke> I'll give it a go
<mvirkkil> mdke: Just small testcases.
<mdke> oh...
<mdke> shall I delete it?
<mvirkkil> mdke: Njah.. Do as you please
<mvirkkil> mdke: The more the merrier :)
<mvirkkil> mdke: But if you find issues, a small testcase would be nicer :)
<mdke> works in yelp
<mdke> IZ VALID!
<mdke> holy shit
<mvirkkil> mdke: I'll take that as a compliment :D
<mdke> that's pretty damn cool
<mdke> nice one dude
<mvirkkil> mdke: Thanks :) 
<mvirkkil> mdke: I'm going to work on generating a single book from multiple pages.
<mdke> mvirkkil: sounds fun :)
<mdke> Burgwork: mvirkkil is working on the wiki->docbook SoC project, already looking good
<mvirkkil> mdke: But I think I've solved the largest problems. Now I just need to implement it ;)
<LaserJock> \o/
<mdke> mvirkkil: well done, that's great stuff. Is it going to work with 1.5 and above only?
<mvirkkil> mdke: I'm working agains the 1.6 branch as are all the other SoC:s 
<mdke> oh right
<mdke> we have 1.3.4 on our servers :D
<mvirkkil> mdke: Yeah.. I know :)
<mdke> we'll have to get them to upgrade sharpish
<mvirkkil> mdke: There have been cleanups in various parts, but the largest ones went in to the 1.3 branch, so it might be backportable.
<mvirkkil> mdke: I'm not going to try though :) 
<mdke> fair enough
<mdke> rob: by the way, is that your post to /. ?
<mvirkkil> mdke: Fedora solved it by creating a small service which takes a page url, requests the raw wiki syntax and runs it through the parser and formatter to return the docbook to the callee.
<mdke> right
<mvirkkil> mdke: So they have their old 1.3.x wiki, but when they want docbook, they run it throug a more up to date wiki, to re-parse and re-format the page on the fly.
<Madpilot> Anyone else noticed that packages.ubuntu.com is still defaulting to only searching Breezy's repos?
<mdke> instead of upgrading?
<mvirkkil> mdke: At the moment yes. 
<mdke> ic
<mvirkkil> mdke: But I got the feeling they are going to update soonish.
<mdke> mvirkkil: I hope you don't use fedora now!
<mvirkkil> mdke: There are some simple improvements in newer versions like strikethrough, but I suppose both ubuntu and fedora feel that the 1.3 version is/was good enough.
<mvirkkil> mdke: Nope, and my mentor knows it :)
<mdke> good.
<mdke> well, the WYSIWYG editor is a massive bonus in 1.5
<mvirkkil> mdke: Coming from a debian background, I wouldn't know how to deal with day to day tasks..
<mvirkkil> mdke: That means wysiwyg editing of docbooks ;)
<mdke> it does indeed
<mvirkkil> There's also some other seriously cool stuff brewing in moin.
<mdke> moin is great
<mdke> shame they only got a few soc projects
<mdke> Madpilot: uploaded, grazie
<Madpilot> de nada
<mvirkkil> mdke: The wiki sync for example. Allowing to separate wikis to transparently sync the pages they want in sync.
<DBO> wait... de nada... italian right?
<Madpilot> DBO, very funny ;)
<Madpilot> no, de nada is es
<DBO> ok
<mvirkkil> mdke: So distributions could share certain documentation, collaborativle improve them accross wikis.
<DBO> Madpilot, I thought you should know
<mdke> mvirkkil: nice
<Madpilot> DBO, thank you. I think. :)
<mvirkkil> mdke: And the [[GetText(DistributionName)] ]  could take care of branding.
* DBO gives Madpilot a tux plushie
<mdke> mvirkkil: that does sound exciting
<mvirkkil> Since the dictionary could hold "branding" information.
<mvirkkil> mdke: Yeah... Should limit the duplication of docs and difficulty of merging separate documentation in to a canonical whole.
<mdke> hmmmm
<mdke> limiting duplication...
<mdke> duplicious
* mdke drools
<Burgwork> mdke, very cool
<mvirkkil> And all larger distros already use docbook, ubuntu, fedora and suse (though they have som suse.dtd of their own).
<mvirkkil> And gnome, ubuntu and fedora use moinmoin.
<mdke> Gnome based distros
<mvirkkil> mdke: Yup.. So basically all using and writing documentation for the same tools.
<LaserJock> Madpilot: I like the Ubuntu CA logo :-)
<Madpilot> LaserJock, thanks
<mvirkkil> mdke: Well, now I need to get some sleep. It's almost 1am and I've got to be at work at 8am
<mdke> mvirkkil: alright, have fun and keep up the good work
* DBO wants to see the ubuntu CA logo
<Madpilot> DBO, www.ubuntu-ca.org
<Burgwork> DBO, planet.ubuntu as a big version
* DBO needs to start guessing...
<DBO> you did that Madpilot? =)
<mdke> Burgwork: http://docbook.wikiwikiweb.de/OpenSSL -> Render as docbook -> Open in yelp
<Madpilot> yes
<Madpilot> Inkscape is wonderful :)
<DBO> its... its beautiful
* DBO wants to move to canada so he can use the logo
<DBO> eh, michigan is close enough
<DBO> Corey Burger wouldnt happen to be related to you would he Madpilot?
<Madpilot> we're brothers
<Madpilot> Corey is Burgwork 
<Burgwork> yes, he is my older brother
<Burgwork> mdke, yelp in gnome 2.12 fails to render that
<mdke> Burgwork: it's valid, so it should render it. Maybe you are missing the right version of docbook
<Burgwork> likely, this is FC crap
<mdke> it's truly beautiful here
* mdke sticks up a screenshot for the hell of it
<mdke> http://mdke.org/tmp/docbook.png
<Burgwork> ok, that is shiny
<mdke> man that is gonna make edgy rock
<LaserJock> magnificent
#ubuntu-doc 2006-06-06
<k31th> Yo guys wats cracking
<LaserJock> hi k31th 
<theCore> mdke: that is sweet
<theCore> with a little bit of work, we could ship the Wiki with Ubuntu
<theCore> hmm, maybe not
<theCore> at least, it will make Wiki->Docs conversions easier
* theCore wonder why Yelp hasn't Open (File|URL)
<Burgwork> theCore, because that is not how it is designed
<mdke> ctrl L
<theCore> mdke: oh, thanks
<mvirkkil> There's a nice runthrough of the markup: http://docbook.wikiwikiweb.de/SyntaxReference
<mvirkkil> Converting it shows that the formatter is quite complete.
<mvirkkil> Though the macros TableOfContents and ShowSmileys are blacklisted inside the formatter and won't produce any output.
<mvirkkil> TableOfContents shouldn't be enabled even if it did work, since the docbookviewers have to be able to generate their own tables of contents..
<mdke> mvirkkil: that looks very good yeah. Weren't you going to bed?
<LaserJock> yeah, that's what I was going to say
<LaserJock> of course the same goes for you Matthew
<mdke> mvirkkil: you don't mind me blogging about your project I suppose?
<mdke> LaserJock: yeah...
<mvirkkil> mdke: I really should have, but I was just so surprised about the entusiasm here.
<mvirkkil> mdke: Blog away if you want.
<mvirkkil> mdke: Perhaps you could leave a direct link to the wiki out of your post.
<mvirkkil> mdke: but it's up to you..
<LaserJock> mvirkkil: well we have to deal a lot with the wiki and docbook so it really is pretty exciting for us :-)
<mvirkkil> LaserJock: It's always nice when ones work is appreciated :) 
<mdke> mvirkkil: I will not post a direct link if you wish
<mvirkkil> mdke: I'm not sure why i wouldn't want you to put a direct link.. I dunno. Go ahead and put one if it "comes naturally". 
<mvirkkil> I guess i was nervous about it getting hammered.. but I'm sure it can take it..
<mdke> mvirkkil: I won't link it, it doesn't matter :)
* mdke sleeps
<mdke> gnight
* mvirkkil tries to get some sleep again..
<Madpilot> oh dear: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/WhatDoNonGeeksWant
<LaserJock> oh I hope I'm around for the discussion of that spec ;-)
<Burgwork> we need a pool
* Burgwork wants a pony
<Burgwork> a poll, even
<LaserJock> I think if we included IE as the default browser that spec would be implemented ;-)
<Burgwork> heh, no
<kermitX_> WhatDoNonGeeksWant: good documentation.
<kermitX_> ;)
<kermitX_> that is the single biggest complaint i hear around here about linux in general.
<Madpilot> it's a legit complaint, to some extent, but that's a textbook case of a useless spec, in it's current form...
<Burgwork> good documentation is merely a crutch for bad implementation, in my view
<Madpilot> huh?
<kermitX_> ok then.. ;)   the other thing the NonGeeks want is to never have to go to console for anything. they're afraid of the little black window.. heck, if they're scared to go into a DOS window, how are they gonna manage in a linux terminal?
<LaserJock> well, I don't really like DOS windows either
<theCore> I never used MS-DOS, except for ipconfig, but I wouldn't live without my Terminal on Linux
<theCore> did you know that O'reilly is making a book about Ubuntu?
<Madpilot> yes
<theCore> I don't know if it awsome or not
<mgalvin> theCore: which book are you referring to?
<Madpilot> OK, that's odd. When I go System->Help->Ubuntu Book Excerpts, it opens in Bluefish
<jsgotangco> odd
<jsgotangco> you might have defaulted HTML to bluefish
<Madpilot> guess so
<jsgotangco> gee its quite hot today 32C
* bhuvan wants jsgotangco to be chennai. here 35C is not considered hot!
<jsgotangco> i will die
<mvirkkil> Here: http://outside.hut.fi/
<jsgotangco> 11C is fab
<mvirkkil> jsgotangco: :)
<Burgundavia> anybody got a hoary or breezy box still?
<jsgotangco> well i have one at work
<robitaille> I can boot in Breezy in a few minutes (I still have it in a 2nd partition on both my computers)
<Burgundavia> hmm, need to cleanup https://wiki.ubuntu.com/AddingRepositoriesHowto
<Burgundavia> this has drastically changed for the last few releases
<apokryphos> it does; I've seen two people in #ubuntu so far today comment about it
<Burgundavia> apokryphos: sorry, was that in relation to my comment?
<apokryphos> yes
<Burgundavia> ah
<Burgundavia> we need to clearly segment that page
<Burgundavia> hmm, I have thrown out all my hoary cds
<apokryphos> The Kubuntu section there seems to be still valid; should perhaps add a mention that it is the same for dapper. I can do that soon-ish, I guess
<apokryphos> would be handy to have manual editing sources.list instructions, too; may add that in
<apokryphos> Burgundavia: why did you want the hoary CD? Default sources.list?
<Burgundavia> apokryphos: no, I found a copy
<apokryphos> p.u.c should be good if you did want one
<Burgundavia> I have going to install a default copy of hoary and breezy on my laptop to have for documentation purposes
<Burgundavia> thankfully hoary ends security support in Oct
<Burgundavia> jsgotangco, robitaille: what do you guys think of creating a category for pages which only apply to hoary and can die after security support ends?
<jsgotangco> is it really different?
<Burgundavia> sorry, don't follow
<jsgotangco> the difference between docs that apply to hoary and breezy
<Burgundavia> yes, there are a far number
<Burgundavia> mostly hardware support stuff
<robitaille> Burgundavia:  I think it is a good idea
<Burgundavia> what should I call it?
<Burgundavia> CategoryHoaryOnly looks good but is bad
<Burgundavia> Category504Only ?
<robitaille>  CategoryHoary
<Burgundavia> robitaille: ok, going to raise it on ubuntu-doc
<mdke> morning
<Burgundavia> morning mdke
<Burgundavia> mdke: thoughts on my email?
<mdke> i haven't read it yet
<Burgundavia> ok, no worries
<mdke> ok, now I have
<mdke> sounds like a plan, the only thing I'd say is that potentially nuking pages which apply to Hoary might mean it would take longer to create an updated page
<mdke> but for pages where an updated page is not going to be helpful, then nuking them is definitely good when it gets to EOL
<Burgundavia> I guess I should have been clear on that
<Burgundavia> I meant pages that only apply to Hoary and to no other release
<Burgundavia> not pages that need to be updated
<Burgundavia> IE: how to get X piece of hardware, mostly
<jsgotangco> ahh so the lulu store got slashdotted
<mdke> Burgundavia: yeah, fine.
<Burgundavia> mdke: can you reply there and tomorrow I will play with the writing a policy on it?
<mdke> sure
<Burgundavia> night all
<jenda> hey, how do I change a wikipage's name?
<jenda> nvm
<Madpilot> jenda, be cautious changing wikipage names - it breaks all links to them
<rob> maybe use a redirect instead
<jenda> It's a page I just created.
<jenda> And I simply put "moved to JakVypalitIso" instead of the old one.
<Madpilot> if it's brand new, then that's fine
<Matthewv> hi all.. d'you maintain the starter guide at help.ubuntu.com/starterguide/ ??
<Madpilot> we did, it's been depreciated for Dapper, though
<Matthewv> k.. so a ubotu factoid that points there should be removed? especially if it gives a 404 error?
<Madpilot> yes
<Madpilot> find the info in the new Ubuntu Desktop Guide, and link to it
<Matthewv> k thanks a lot Madpilot 
<mdke> Matthewv: the starterguide still exists at http://help.ubuntu.com/5.10/, fwiw. So you can distinguish between information for 5.10, and 6.06
<Matthewv> k, thanks
<exhale> rob are you a freenode staff?
<rob> exhale, yes
<rob> whats up?
<exhale> i lost my password
<exhale> :(
<apokryphos> hm, broken link on UserDocumentation to the Glossary; is it still around?
<mdke> apokryphos: no, nice catch
<apokryphos> worth creating one on the wiki? Could be handy
<mdke> i bet there is a good one around somewhere
<apokryphos> yeah, could use it
<apokryphos> why is it that anchor tags used with the ContentsPage adopt such curious names? 
<apokryphos> #head-0d871c9a0181db4293f4f8d6aa34b4b3b20cb21b  ...just isn't very practical
<mvirkkil> apokryphos: It's an autogenerated hash
<apokryphos> yes, but why doesn't it generate something more practical? ;-)
<apokryphos> i.e. for point 1, have...... #1
<apokryphos> anyhow, with regard to a glossary, anyone have a link to the old glossary?
<apokryphos> May start on one for the Wiki in a bit
<mdke> you can't find a good technical glossary elsewhere?
<apokryphos> looking for the old Ubuntu one
<apokryphos> could weave that in to a new one on the wiki, primarily perhaps for new users
<apokryphos> though some more technical definitions for some terms won't be discarded 
<jsgotangco> hey
<mdke> apokryphos: as I said, the Ubuntu one isn't there any more. But there is bound to be a very good one elsewhere on the internet
<apokryphos> ok, I presumed someone would have a local copy of all the documentation, but nevermind
<jjesse> are ever going to have a  documentation team meeting?
<onkarshinde> jjesse: It is planed on 15th
<onkarshinde> Check the calender
<onkarshinde> jjesse: This is calendar url http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event/ical/all/all
<jjesse> grin they have been planned but haven't happened in a while
<jsgotangco> i dunno i could arrange one but since mdke is the most visibile guy out there, i guess he's the one who has a say...
<mdke> I'm fine with you arranging it
* jsgotangco stands in attention
* jenda waves at mgalvin
<mgalvin> hi jenda
* jenda wonders what it was that we were about to talk about before...
<mgalvin> we had started talking about the newsletter and how it relates to the marketing team
<mgalvin> if that what you are referring to
<jenda> yes, prolly ;)
<jenda> I was thinking the two (newsletter and magazine) have different target audiences.
<jenda> The newsletter's audience covers well with the fridge's, methinks... whereas the mag would be intended mainly for new and enthusiastic users.
<shawarma> I just downloaded the Ubuntu Server Guide from Lulu.com.. All the pages are blank apart from the line in the heading and a few symbols (list bullets and stuff). am i the only one seeing this?
<mdke> shawarma: no, they don't work with evince
<shawarma> mdke: doh.. :-)
<mgalvin> they do, but at time (probably fairly often) stuff in the newsletter will likely be useful for the mag
<mdke> jenda: it's easy to define different target audiences for stuff. I think a cool approach would be to ensure that the single project can target both audiences
<shawarma> mdke: Any non-poppler based pdf viewer in ubuntu?
<mdke> shawarma: acroread and kpdf work. You can also download pdfs that do work with evince from help.ubuntu.com, if you're interested in the material rather than the presentation
<jenda> mgalvin, mdke, both agreed...
<jenda> so why did the newsletter arise out of nowhere, I'm thinking... shall we merge the projects?
* mdke votes "yes"
<jenda> (shall we attempt to?)
* jenda does too
<mgalvin> it arose from a request from mdz and sabdfl
<mgalvin> and JaneW
<jenda> OK
<mgalvin> so it started :)
<mgalvin> kubuntu, edubuntu and desktop newsletters where around a bit and it seemed more logical to combine those efforts
<jenda> You know what? I think you should write something like a mission statement - I'll get the mag people to do the same - and then we can think much more clearly about what we can do to make the two one.
<mgalvin> that would be good
<shawarma> mdke: Well, I was actually interested in seein exactly what the printed version looks like.
<shawarma> mdke: I'll try with kpdf.
<mdke> shawarma: the former then
<shawarma> Who made the PDF's for lulu.com ? and more importantly: how?
<jjesse> mdke made them
<mdke> me, and with apache fop
<shawarma> mdke: How are the ones on docs.ubuntu.com made?
<shawarma> er... help.ubuntu.com, obviously.
<mdke> (help.ubuntu.com) the same way
<shawarma> Why do they work, then?
<mdke> there are very few differences
<mdke> one of the differences is that the lulu ones use embedded fonts
<mdke> that seems to bother poppler/cairo
<shawarma> I see.
<jsgotangco> it just didn't come from "nowhere"
<mgalvin> jenda: we kindda do already have a mission statement...
<mgalvin> "Ubuntu Weekly Newsletter - Reporting all of this weeks Ubuntu, Kubuntu, Edubuntu and Xubuntu action.
<mgalvin> "
<jsgotangco> do you really need a subtitle?
<jenda> There are many types of news, mgalvin. I was interested if we could compare what teh two prints would address and to whom.
<jsgotangco> magazine vs. newsletter? lots
<jsgotangco> a newsletter is supposed to be read in 10 minutes
<jsgotangco> a magazine more
<jenda> OK
<mdke> dude, we're trying to merge the projects, not drive them apart
<jenda> so you are against the merger, jsgotangco?
<mdke> lets try and see common ground here
<jenda> Well...
<jsgotangco> im not going to read an email newsletter for 30 minutes
<jenda> I had the feeling the newsletter is here for us to keep up with the increasing amount of ubuntu community traffic in a weekly newsletter...
<mdke> how do you know the marketing team's plans for the magazine involve something more than that?
<jsgotangco> me? no idea but a magazine is a composition of essays and newsbits
<jenda> whereas the ubuntu mag was here to address the new users - the wide community, the type that reads the forums.
<mdke> a magazine in general yeah, but the point is to go beyond names and find out what the projects actually have in common
<mdke> I can't see the resources that the community has right no supporting two separate initiatives successfully
<jenda> Tell them about what's new and snapping - what the new games that are playable under linux are, that there is an Ubuntu democrakey (when/if that is true)
<jenda> Is the newsletter meant to be email-only?
<mdke> jenda: that sounds exactly like some of the ideas that have been put forward for the newsletter
<jenda> OK
<jsgotangco> well the newsletter is primarily sent via email but also available in the wiki
<jsgotangco> lots of news sites snag our announce-emails, lwn for instance
<jenda> OK
<jenda> The Mag was meant to be html and printable-pdf
<mdke> don't get hung up on the format. you can do what you like with open source material
<jsgotangco> honestly if you ask my opinion, if you're going through a route similiar to freesoftware magazine or Tux magazine, a monthly format can be quite hairy...
<jsgotangco> those  2 magazines do it bi-monthly
<mdke> jenda: don't you think that if the community is producing a newsletter, the marketing team should be involved?
<mdke> it seems to me to be absolutely perfect
<jsgotangco> by all means yes!
* mdke pokes jenda 
<jenda> does that mean once in two months or twice a month?
<jenda> The format is not important, check.
<jsgotangco> once in two months that means 6 issues
<jenda> of course
<jenda> It should be involved -  if the newsletter is a marketing issue, of which i'm not sure.
<mdke> weekly is more fun
* jenda is for weekly, if we can make it.
<jsgotangco> yes weekly is fun but it should be concise and readable in a short time
<jenda> agreed
<jenda> or - skippable-trough
<mgalvin> people associate a "magazine" with what a traditional "magazine" is, the newsletter is what it is and people already have shown a great deal of interest in seeing it succeed the as what it is, and they like already, given the instability of past newsletter i think, for the community at large, it is in our best interest to stay the course...
<jjesse> +1 mgalvin
<mgalvin> thats not to say a mag cannot exist, i just don't think that at the core the two project at that similar in nature (although they can certainly share content)
<mgalvin> s/at/are/
<jjesse> seems to me that a  maganize would be closer to monthly like tux magazine is
<jsgotangco> yes that KDE-lovin piece of !
<jsgotangco> ...literary work!
<mgalvin> hehe
<mgalvin> jenda: i do like the idea of a mag, i am just very sceptical about merging the directly
<mgalvin> s/the/them/
* mgalvin needs to learn how to type :-/
<jenda> OK...
* jenda is unsure about the merger now as well...
<jenda> mdke, what's your stance?
<mdke> just need to catch up, hang on
<mdke> my stance is that the newsletter is on the right road, and the marketing team should get involved and help out
<jsgotangco> yeah i mean, i don't mind if marketing take over the newsletter even
<mdke> as for a separate magazine, I can't see there being enough resources to do that too, but if you think the marketing team is well organised and efficient, it might be possible. if not, I'd recommend starting by aiming low and helping out on the newsletter
<jjesse> would intrest in the newsletter drive a monthly magazine?
<jsgotangco> if the newsletter gets big enough
<jsgotangco> but then
<mgalvin> possibly
<jsgotangco> the original aim of the newsletters were:
<jsgotangco> 1) development related
<jsgotangco> 2) community involvement related
<jsgotangco> because 
<jsgotangco> a) traffic used to provide that
<jsgotangco> b) ubuntu-news is dead so to speak
<mgalvin> (example: the magazine isn't going to cover bugs, the newsletter does)
<mdke> right, but many of the suggestions (e.g. "feature of the week") are common, I don't see it being difficult to find common ground and work on a single project
<jsgotangco> USNs as well
<jsgotangco> sure
<jsgotangco> even if you just add feature or tip of the week
<jsgotangco> that's 4 tips in a moth
<jsgotangco> good enough
<jenda> sorry back
<jenda> Ok... perhaps it seems as the most sensible solution to develop content together and publish individually?
<jsgotangco> i have one question that may irritate you if you dont mind
<jeffsch> it seems to me that the newsletter and magazine are for different audiences, and therefore should have different content
<jeffsch> the magazine is for the world at large
<jeffsch> but the newsletter is more internal
<jeffsch> the newsletter can have developer jargon, the magazine cannot
<jeffsch> there would be little or no marketing in the newsletter, but the magazine would have lots of it
<mgalvin> jeffsch: right
* mgalvin hands mdke his troll beating stick
<jjesse> +1 jeffsch
<jsgotangco> have you watched LOTR how Gandalf beat trolls
<mgalvin> i actually never watch those movies
<jsgotangco> wow you just missed 10 hours of your life
<mgalvin> :) well i started watching the first one and fell asleep so i didn't bother to watch the rest
<jsgotangco> lol
<mgalvin> maybe i will try to watch them some day
<mdke> jeffsch: the point is good, but I don't think the resources are going to be available to run both, i feel that one item should do both jobs
<jeffsch> we have the resources to run the newsletter, so we can do that
<jsgotangco> i can't see the reason to limit them if they can do it
<jeffsch> if marketing has the resources to run a magazine, then they can do that
<jsgotangco> yeah
<jeffsch> they are two different audiences and have two different purposes
<jsgotangco> happy to write for them if they could work it out
<mdke> jeffsch: I think that is a bit stubborn. The content of the newsletter isn't fixed, it's been made abundantly clear that it is open to ideas about what sort of news and features to include
<mdke> there is no reason it can't be made fun for both audiences
<jsgotangco> i don't see the point of discouraging them to do their own thing
<mdke> I'm not, I'm encouraging both groups to be more inclusive
<mdke> obviously a magazine would also be for people who already use Ubuntu, so there can only be lots of common ground
<mdke> that's what I think anyhows
<jsgotangco> but you can't force them if they're not convinced to join
<mdke> jsgotangco: that's not the problem. the problem is lack of flexibility from both sides about seeing common purposes, as I see it
<mdke> anyway, no worries, each will sort it out
<jsgotangco> if i can't finish reading an email in 10 or even 15 its not a newsletter at all
<mdke> one always structures both newsletters and magaxines so that you can dip into what you are interested in, I don't see time being a problem. And applying a fixed idea to the words "newsletter" and "magazine" is also illusory I think
<mgalvin> i think we are trying to be flexible, i think we all see the common ground you are talking about, i just think they are *different enough* for them to be different projects
<mgalvin> mag more for users/community, newsletter for management/devs/community
<mdke> if you realise that users = community, you see that they overlap
<jsgotangco> up to what point?
<mdke> well, one is a subset of the other
<mgalvin> but not for devs and management, which carries a lot of weight
<mdke> mgalvin: right, but the audience of one is wholly contained within the audience of the other
<jsgotangco> let's not abstract things
<mdke> erm
<jsgotangco> they're entirely different whatever method we look at it
<mdke> actually, if you read what I've just said, you can see that's not true jerome
<jsgotangco> but that doesn't mean we're not flexible enough not to accomodate any stuff from them
<mdke> i see your points, and agree with them, but I feel it's worth trying to get the marketing team on board here, they need to get their teeth into something and it's worth accomodating them on this project, given the ideas that have come into it from mdz and Mark
<jsgotangco> like i said
<jsgotangco> i dont mind if they take over a newsletter altogether
<jsgotangco> it was our initial reaction when JaneW asked for it
<jsgotangco> (me and mgalvin)
<mgalvin> and the idea came down from mdz
<mdke> you think he would be against including things for normal users?
<jsgotangco> not at all
<mgalvin> not at all
<mgalvin> took the words out of my mouth ;)
<mdke> ok, so habemus common audiences
* mdke guesses that his superlogic hasn't convinced everyone else :)
<jeffsch> me, i'm just throwing in my two cents. I prolly wont' have time to work on either one
<mdke> I didn't mean to throw in any more than two cents
<jeffsch> but it's important to consider the audience. If you don't, the audience will go away. And with no audience, there's no point
<mdke> if I did, I'll blame it on the exchange rates
<jeffsch> :)
<jeffsch> sometimes if you try to address two different audiences with one publication, then the publication is useless to both
<mgalvin> haha :)
<mdke> yeah, that can happen, definitely
<mgalvin> jeffsch: very true
<mdke> but if both audiences are already covered in the plans for the NL...
<mdke> changing the subject
<mdke> shall we remove the PDFs from lulu as downloads?
<mdke> a lot of people have been complaining they don't open in evince
<mdke> and the ones on help.ubuntu.com do, so I think it is better to force people to get them there
<mdke> also, the ones on help.u.c are A4 and better in general for on screen reading
<jeffsch> do the available pdfs on lulu have to be the same file that the book is produced from?
<mgalvin> mdke: +1 (remove em to avoid confusion)
<jeffsch> can lulu have one pdf for printing book, and one for downloading?
<jeffsch> if not, then I say remove them
<mdke> jeffsch: only if I create separate projects for each
<mdke> which I'm not mad about, tbh
<jeffsch> it's pretty embarassing though... a book about ubuntu that you can't read in ubuntu
<mdke> quite
<jeffsch> has anyone filed a but about it?
<jeffsch> bug, that is
<mdke> yes
<mdke> but it's not a bug that will ever been fixed in dapper
<jeffsch> what!?!?!? what the heck does LTS mean then?
<mdke> it means no bug fixes which require a new api of poppler ;)
<jeffsch> now that's really embarassing
<mgalvin> that sucks (the magnitude of the change that is)
<mdke> guess these pdfs are uncommon
<mdke> so you guys agree I should pull em?
<mgalvin> it the embedded fonts causing the issue right?
<mgalvin> yes
<mdke> seems so
<mgalvin> i would pull em
<jeffsch> so it's "we'll support for 3 years, as long as we don't think it's too much work"
<mgalvin> what else is effected by the poppler lib, would it be that significant an impact
<mdke> jeffsch: they'll have plenty of work backporting firefox security fixes, don't worry
<mgalvin> probably not worth worrying about, they will likely not fix it in dapper
<mdke> but "support" doesn't mean fix all bugs
<mdke> pulling the pdfs also has another advantage
<mdke> we'll get actual statistics about who is buying them, rather than total numbers which include downloads
<mgalvin> thats a good stat to know
<jsgotangco> well good night folks
<mdke> night
<Burgwork> hey LaserJock 
<Burgwork> LaserJock, seems I dodged the "tim marching orders"
<LaserJock> hm?
<Burgwork> check your email
<LaserJock> doing it right now
<LaserJock> wow, he is an administrator
<Burgwork> LaserJock, he can give marching orders, he just likes to change them 5 minutes later, or give marching orders to for random jobs to random people
<LaserJock> hehe, that sounds about right
<LaserJock> I'm actually suprised that mvo didn't have more things. I'm pretty pleased
<robotgeek> hmm, i wonder when is next time 
<Burgwork> robotgeek, next time?
<robotgeek> was looking thru my scrollbacks, Madpilot had mentioned a script about me and next time
<mdke> he means when we add more translations
<mdke> i think
<Burgwork> ah
<Burgwork> ok, people in my office were just yelling at each other :(
<LaserJock> hmm, over work related things?
<Burgwork> yep, one of my colleagues at my boss
<LaserJock> yikes
<Burgwork> he is an ex-construction worker, so it is scary when he gets mad (never seen it before)
* Burgwork is a little rattled
<LaserJock> nothing flying yet?
<LaserJock> I hope
<Burgwork> no, it is now really really quiet
<LaserJock> k
<LaserJock> guys, do we want any doc specs for Edgy?
<LaserJock> Monday is the deadline
<theCore> would it be useful?
<LaserJock> not sure
<LaserJock> hmm, did apress do an Ubuntu book?
<theCore> maybe it would be better to just work on the docs instead of losing time describing them
<LaserJock> perhaps
<LaserJock> but a good discussion about wheither a doc should be done or not, or how to implement it might be nice
<Burgwork> LaserJock, yes, they did
<LaserJock> Burgwork: ah, I saw an apress guy was going to Paris
<Burgwork> the book is not the beginners book is purports to be
<Burgwork> the english one at least
<LaserJock> more advanced?
<Burgwork> yes
<Burgwork> reverts to cli too much
<LaserJock> ahh
<Burgwork> and there is a quite quote where he wonders why peolpe are afriad of the cli and how they shouldn
<Burgwork> 't be
<LaserJock> well, to some degree that is true, but it isn't the way to win people over
<Burgwork> no, and that is not what you put in a beginners book
<LaserJock> certainly not
<LaserJock> you shouldn't say things like "I wonder why people don't ..." because then that just shows you don't know your audience very well, IMO
<jenda> Anyone know about a bit of reading on Ubuntu on the Laptop? General stuff... some introduction...
<mdke> LaserJock: anyway you should definitely hook up with that guy and talk with him
<LaserJock> yeah, that's what I was thinking
<LaserJock> I'm certainly hoping for some doc discussions at Paris
<mdke> I think the main challenge for edgy, from a desktop perspective at least, is whether we are going to cling onto the idea of writing books, or we are happy to move away to a more decentralised help system
<LaserJock> hmm
<mdke> this moin convertion thing should allow us to bring in lots of articles, and it will allow us to write a real help system, if we want to
<mdke> but that would probably mean binning the idea of writing books, or alternatively, trying to maintain both
<LaserJock> hmm (again)
<LaserJock> is there anything that should be a spec for Paris?
<LaserJock> I'm not really sure how doc type specs relate
<mdke> we didn't really do any last time
<mdke> except for BetterWikiDocs, which was done after the conference
<mdke> cool, we've sold 10 books since I removed the pdfs earlier today
<mdke> go lulu
<mdke> 2 of which the packaging guide :) nice
#ubuntu-doc 2006-06-07
<Burgwork> mdke, I like the former, myself, but then again, I am mad
<mdke> Burgwork: books?
<Burgwork> mdke, yep
<mdke> Burgwork: yeah, mad :)
<Burgwork> my brain is goo. We just have a 1 1/2 hr long meeting at work
<LaserJock> I like books too
<robotgeek> hmm, LaserJock 
<LaserJock> especially since I can read about computers without having to be on one
<Burgwork> LaserJock, you can do a book even if we drop books
* mdke dives into the Forum Document Storage Facility debate again
<LaserJock> waahooo
<LaserJock> where?
<Burgwork> mdke, where is that?
<mdke> http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?p=1104384
<LaserJock> hmm, and I was thinking of suggesting a move away from using the wiki for docs
<mdke> is anyone from the UDSF here?
<mdke> doesn't look like it :/
<Burgwork> KingBahamut hangs out hin here
<Burgwork> LaserJock, why would you suggest a move away?
<Burgwork> we need a merging and if the wiki can offer us docbook, I don't see any reason why we would want to move away
<LaserJock> because I'm just not seeing the point, I guess
<Burgwork> the point of what? webediting?
<LaserJock> wiki seems great for quick and dirty collaboration
<robotgeek> LaserJock: maybe then we would not need ALL contributors to be good at docbook
<LaserJock> but I just don't see it as a very good help system
<Burgwork> we can do more agressive ACL's when it comes down to release time
<Burgwork> maybe get some hacking to do frozen pages for release
<robotgeek> linuxmonkey wants to write documentation for us :)
<linuxmonkey> :)
<LaserJock> if people knew what they were doing and how there writing affected other pages
<LaserJock> but it just doesn't seem to have any flow or structure, to me
<Burgwork> because it gets ignored
<Burgwork> if it was the primary place we wrote, it would be a very different place
<linuxmonkey> ive been fixing stuff on the wiki and want to help with docs too for kubuntu :)
<LaserJock> I've just been getting the impression that we have outgrown our wiki
<Burgwork> uhh
<LaserJock> it seems like a complete mess
<robotgeek> linuxmonkey: we are in the midst of "brainstroming"
<Burgwork> see my previous point
<robotgeek> anyways, i need tp run now :). later
<LaserJock> but that is my point
<linuxmonkey> brainstorming on any specific subject
<LaserJock> Burgwork: it doesn't seem like we have enough resources to make it better
<LaserJock> don't have, I mean
<Burgwork> you don't ignore a dog for a while and then wonder why it has mange and piddles on the carpet
<mdke> we need to get the whole community involved
<mdke> hopefully focusing things on help.u.c will help
<Burgwork> I'm stoked
<LaserJock> Burgwork: but how is it being ignored? People are using it all the time, a lot of our conversation as a team is about wiki material
<Burgwork> yes, but how much are we actually fixing it?
<LaserJock> right
<Burgwork> if the doc team was teh major editor, leadership would created better docs
<Burgwork> currently most of the edits come from people who we don't know
<LaserJock> right
<Burgwork> we also have a major communication issue on the wiki
<LaserJock> yes
<LaserJock> but I'm wondering how we propose to fix these issues
<Burgwork> but that can be solved through begging for money/time/developers from mark :0
<Burgwork> :0
<Burgwork> :), even
<linuxmonkey> I think that docs/wiki should have a section for non specific display manager (No matter the display manager this would pertain to all) and then a section for each individual other like gnome, kde and such, instead of having stuff mixed on the same pages
<Burgwork> linuxmonkey, we try and make it as non-specific as possible
<Burgwork> can you give us a specific example?
<linuxmonkey> hehe yeah look at wiki for RestrictedFormats
<Burgwork> that is quite non-specific
<linuxmonkey> main one that pops into my head
<Burgwork> restrictedformats needs an ACL, to be honest
<Burgwork> there is no need for many random people to be editing that page
<linuxmonkey> yeah but the issue is that theres alot of stuff in there thats Ubuntu specific and then stuff thats kubuntu specific
<Burgwork> yep
<Burgwork> I would welcome concrete proposals on how to deal with it
<linuxmonkey> and users get mixed up
<Burgwork> it is a known issue
<Burgwork> s/I/we
<Burgwork> sorry if I am being abrupt. I got subjected to a useless meeting today at work and am tired about lack of "concrete proposals"
<linuxmonkey> s/l/we? take my appologies but what does that mean
<mdke> it means replace "I" with "we" in his previous message
<linuxmonkey> ah
<LaserJock> man, that page is huge
* mdke sleeps
<Burgwork> things like shockwave need to be split out
<LaserJock> good night mdke 
<Burgwork> night mdke 
<LaserJock> I'd love to see using some sort of namespace for the different releases
<linuxmonkey> exactly
<LaserJock> but I'm not sure how practical it is
<linuxmonkey> well it would take a bit more server space but be easyer for support
<LaserJock> I think the most difficult part is having people decide when something is specific to a release or not
<mdke> it would be hell to maintain, given that most things are the same over all releases
* mdke doesn't sleep!
<LaserJock> I'm just really struggling with structure right now, and I'm tired
<LaserJock> but I have another 5hrs before I get to go home
<LaserJock> I have high hopes for the new help.u.c wiki
<Burgwork> I realize it is a good building block
<linuxmonkey> so how does one become an official member of the doc team
<LaserJock> you work where we can see your contribution
<LaserJock> hang out with us, and bribes certainly should help ;-)
<Burgwork> linuxmonkey, for the wiki team, simply edit some wiki pages and apply. For the doc team, patches to our svn repo
<linuxmonkey> wiki ..already edited quite a few pages
<linuxmonkey> and for doc. reading the getting started section
<Burgwork> linuxmonkey, if you apply, create a wiki page with a list of contributions and have that linked from the LP page
<linuxmonkey> wiki page allready created
<Burgwork> cool
<linuxmonkey> lmao
<Burgwork> hmm?
<linuxmonkey> Linuxmonkey
<linuxmonkey> anyways i got to go cook supper, ttyl
<mdke> hey, the storage facility has some good stuff.
<mdke> we need to get these two groups working together *grits teeth*
<mdke> http://doc.gwos.org/index.php/AppHelper
<mdke> http://doc.gwos.org/index.php/Terminology
<Burgwork> isn't USDF pd?
<Burgwork> I think we can take as needed
<Burgwork> I think if we take a proactive approach to porting stuff, we will be good
<mdke> in theory yes, but I don't know whether they have the right to pd it, having taken much material from the forum
<Laser_away> isn't the forum PD?
<mdke> I think you might be right about that
<mdke> porting things might be a good way to bring things closer
<mdke> take small steps and so on
<Burgwork> mere aggregation of data, like that first one is clearly not copyrightable
<mdke> try and convince the storage center contributors/admins that collaborating is absolutely an option
<Burgwork> if we put a link at the bottom of all pages "Now been ported. See h.u.c/X"
<Burgwork> that might get the idea
<mdke> if they are up for that, yeah
<Burgwork> I would just do it, guerilla style
* Burgwork really needs to blow of steam somehow right now
<mdke> oh dear
<mdke> well don't go alienating half the community while I'm asleep, dear
* mdke recommends karate
<mdke> damn, so annoying that the Ubuntu servers aren't resolving my domain right
<mdke> my email is going to the wrong place and planet isn't getting my blog
<mdke> >_<
<Laser_away> darn it, I'm trying to figure out whether I should print out a 288 book or not
<Laser_away> bah, I'm sure my boss won't mind :-)
<Burgwork> mdke, yes, mdke
<Burgwork> mdke, or should I say, mom ;)
<Laser_away> hehe
<LaserJock> hi Madpilot 
<Madpilot> hi
<Burglaptop> oh geez I am glad we are moving to our own wiki
<Burglaptop> look at what Jriddel just did
<LaserJock> where?
<Burglaptop> on the wiki
<Burglaptop> KubuntuXGL
<LaserJock> heh
<Burglaptop> oi, jsgotangco
<LaserJock> jsgotangco!
<Burglaptop> LaserJock: you are working on teh Userful stuff?
<LaserJock> not this minute
<jsgotangco> hi! long time no see!
<LaserJock> I had to take care of some research today
<Burglaptop> ah
<Burglaptop> no worries
<Burglaptop> I am just trying to prevent Tim from breathing down my neck
<LaserJock> I think his timeline is definately doable
<Burglaptop> he is going to be in town on Thursday, so I have to deal with him in person
<jsgotangco> LaserJock: are you good at bzr?
<LaserJock> umm, I can use it, usually
<LaserJock> what do you need
<LaserJock> Burglaptop: I feel for you, really.
<Burglaptop> tbbbhhh...
<jsgotangco> LaserJock: on bzr viz, what does a yellow branch indicate?
<jsgotangco> and a green one as well
<LaserJock> hmm, I've never done viz before
<jsgotangco> ahh
* jsgotangco goes to #bzr
<LaserJock> sorry
<jsgotangco> ah wait i understand it now
<jsgotangco> from head someone branched then it was merged
<jsgotangco> but the branch continued to work on his own
<jsgotangco> then it got merged again
<jsgotangco> ahh
<Burglaptop> what are you working on?
<jsgotangco> im looking at the history of hwdb client
<Burglaptop> ah, ok
<Burglaptop> going to be working on it
<Burglaptop> ?
<jsgotangco> well not really, 
<Burglaptop> ahhhh
<jsgotangco> just started branching from ogra's bzr archives
<LaserJock> jsgotangco: do you have to install something besides bzr to get bzr viz
<Burglaptop> I want some hwdb/laptop/server testing love
<jsgotangco> LaserJock: bzrk
<LaserJock> ah, right
<jsgotangco> Burglaptop: atm i think the hardware identifier is random, hence its possible to have multiple entries of the same hardware
<Burglaptop> yep, taht is an issue
<Burglaptop> hmm, md5 sum of something?
<jsgotangco> yes very much
<LaserJock> I think hwdb will get lots of love in edgy
<jsgotangco> massaging the current data is not that hard
<Burglaptop> if you md5 summed a specific piece of hardware, it should work
<Burglaptop> maybe login account would be better
<Burglaptop> let the user choose the machine themselves
<jsgotangco> you mean let the user create a hw profile 
<jsgotangco> ?
<jsgotangco> that lists his entries?
<LaserJock> we should make them sign up on LP, report at least 2 bugs, and pass an Ubuntu IQ test before that though ;-)
<Burglaptop> yep, and tie their hardware profile to their LP name
<jsgotangco> i could make a mockup in glade
<Burglaptop> you could. I hate glade
<Burglaptop> really clunky to use
<LaserJock> oh wow, bzr viz is neato
<Burglaptop> is it some gtk boog?
<jsgotangco> yeah
<jsgotangco> it was obviously inspired by git
* Burglaptop observes that the weather is great and he really should mow the lawn
<Burglaptop> nahh..
<Burglaptop> jsgotangco: you think I should write out a plan for RestrictedFormats and get feedback or just dive into it?
<linuxmonkey> Burglaptop: do u know if libdvdread3 can be installed with any package manager app or do you have to use apt-get
<Burglaptop> yes, it can, but then the issue of the isntall script for the css part
<linuxmonkey> thats easy
<linuxmonkey> just have to tell them to run that command
<Burglaptop> still needs to be run in a terminal
<Burglaptop> true
<linuxmonkey> so are we gonna have a seperate wiki or still using ubuntu's, whats the direction were taking
<Burglaptop> the documentation is being moved off, any day now
<linuxmonkey> so what exact;y does that mean?
<Burglaptop> anything in CatDoc is being moved to help.ubuntu.com
<linuxmonkey> still in wiki format?
<Burglaptop> yep, to another moin wiki
<Burglaptop> same editing, etc.
<jsgotangco> Burglaptop: i am not sure, people who refer/use RestrictedFormats is quite diverse in their opinion as well
<linuxmonkey> Burglaptop: im gonna edit the dvd section and let me know how i did
<Burglaptop> linuxmonkey: uhh, wait up a sec
<linuxmonkey> uh ok
<Burglaptop> honestly, can you find another page to edit?
<linuxmonkey> possibly
<Burglaptop> not to be rude, but RestrictedFormats needs a light touch, due to how heavily trafficed it is
<linuxmonkey> ive edited it befor
<linuxmonkey> lol
<Burglaptop> yep, and so have I
<Burglaptop> in fact, there are too many people editing it
<Burglaptop> we really need to ACL it
<linuxmonkey> fixed other peoples mistakes is what I kept fixing
<linuxmonkey> that we do
<Burglaptop> ok, my laptop has absolute shite for battery life
<nixternal> and like that he is gone...right as i finish ;)
<Burgundavia> nixternal: I am never gone
<nixternal> lol
<Burgundavia> Burglaptop is also Burgundavia is also Burgwork
<nixternal> where there is one, there is many
<nixternal> i kinda figured that...but it is like you went to sleep with lappy ;)
<Burgundavia> yes, laptop has crap battery life
<nixternal> as i do more, i will continue adding them to my wiki Burgundavia...now as i do anything, im adding it to my notepad as i work..this way here i can keep track..which is what i should have done from the get go
<Burgundavia> ok cool
<nixternal> oh..i know about crappy battery life..i need a new battery as a matter of fact
<nixternal> so CatDoc is heading over to help.ubuntu.com...how much are the changes going to impact the current wiki setup?
<Burgundavia> the whole catdoc is moving
<Burgundavia> redirects left in their place
<nixternal> so a search on the old direct will lead you to a redirect then..ok..that works
<Burgundavia> yep
<nixternal> so anyone currently linked to a wiki page won't be screwed then..that is cool
* Burgundavia cleans up Jriddels mess
<nixternal> i thought my bookmarks were in for it there for a second ;)
<nixternal> lol...i was cracking up when you went after him on that one
<nixternal> Burgundavia: what exactly did he do wrong there, so I am not to recreate an instance similar to that?
<Burgundavia> nixternal: what do you mean?
<nixternal> he did something you didn't like with the KubuntuXGL
<Burgundavia> he did not consider namespace collisions
<nixternal> i don't want to follow that example
<nixternal> ahhh..ok
<Burgundavia> people searching for how to install XGL would come across his spec
<Burgundavia> pretty much the largest reason we are moving the docs off
<nixternal> that is good to know
<nixternal> what is the outcome going to be for wiki.ubuntu.com? will it eventually go away, used for something else?
<Burgundavia> nope, it will stay what is used for now: internal Ubuntu communication and specs
<nixternal> ok...great..i am looking at help.ubuntu.com now..i should have done that from the get go...it makes more sense to me now
<Burgundavia> yep
<Burgundavia> it has been a hard slog for other people to see what you just did
* Burgundavia goes to install hoary
<nixternal> hehe
<nixternal> have fun installing
<Burgundavia> need it for doc purposes
<nixternal> true..need to keep that going...especially since a lot of people jumped to Dapper here recently
<jsgotangco> are you going to do an upgrade?
<Burgundavia> no, just to see how things are done
<LaserJock> you're going to do a real install?
<Burgundavia> yep
<LaserJock> have fun then :-)
<jsgotangco> i did a warty install before just for nostalgia
<Burgundavia> doing it now
<LaserJock> I've never installed warty, I came to Ubuntu when Hoary was just about released
<linuxmonkey> ok just edit another page for the better
<linuxmonkey> :)
<linuxmonkey> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KubuntuArtwork <--fixed the top of the page :)
<jsgotangco> i gotta go
<jsgotangco> see you guys later
<Burgundavia> are we moving non-english docs? mdke?
<linuxmonkey> Burgundavia: check that out and tell me if you like it better, its all equal now and not allover the place :)
<Burgundavia> linuxmonkey: looks good
<linuxmonkey> check the before and after, quite a difference I find
<Burgundavia> yep
<Burgundavia> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/FirefoxHowTo <-- should I just kill this?
<linuxmonkey> id vote yes on killing
<linuxmonkey> but i dont have a official vote yet...lol
<nixternal> Burgundavia: +
<nixternal> Burgundavia: +1
<nixternal> nice numlock ;)
<linuxmonkey> lol
<nixternal> wireless keyboard...i can't tell if it is on or not until i use it ;)
<Madpilot> Burgundavia, doesn't look like anyone's done anything substantial to it since it was imported from the new wiki. I'd vote for nuking it.
<Madpilot> From orbit, because that's the only way to be sure. ;)
<Burgundavia> do we need a guide on how to install extensions, etc?
<Burgundavia> and the how and why or our security policy?
<Madpilot> what's an extension? ;) <-- not a Firefox user
<Burgundavia> nor am I
<Burgundavia> I will rewrite it
<linuxmonkey> Burgundavia: how about that wiki team
<Burgundavia> linuxmonkey: have you applied to join?
<linuxmonkey> thats what I wanted to know how to
<linuxmonkey> i asked around earlyer
<Burgundavia> hmm, I don't see you
<Burgundavia> apply to join
<nixternal> i wouldn't think so Burgundavia on firefox extensions...because all you do is click the "install now" and restart firefox
<nixternal> linuxmonkey: quit following me ;)
<linuxmonkey> lmao
<Burgundavia> well, we need a doc to explain Ubuntu security policy as well
<linuxmonkey> u followed me over..I thought I had clicked the join team..lol
<Burgundavia> hmm, I don't see an email
<Burgundavia> oh, wait there you are
<Burgundavia> approved
<linuxmonkey> ty :)
<linuxmonkey> I feel loved
<Burgundavia> linuxmonkey: it is nice to use your realname in LP and on the wiki
<Burgundavia> don't get used to it ;0
<Burgundavia> ;), rather
<nixternal> the only thing i could see of importance to the firefox wiki, would be the fixes for kde concerning the nsFilePicker.js and the FILEPICKER_CONTRACTID fix
<linuxmonkey> I feel that using a fake name could hinder future involvment with kubuntu and other projects of open source
<nixternal> all that really does is give you the kde feeling when you do file>open really
<linuxmonkey> Burgundavia: I know other teams get custom hostmask on irc is this the case for the wikiteam as well
<Burgundavia> for /member/ubuntu/Burgundavia ?
<Burgundavia> for that you need to be an Ubuntu memeber
<linuxmonkey> ok cool
<Madpilot> linuxmonkey, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/NewMemberHowto if you're interested
<linuxmonkey> yeah i read that, i'll hold off on that for bit till I get more edits under my belt
<Madpilot> you generally need to do more than just wiki stuff for membership - other docs, help in IRC/the forums, etc
<linuxmonkey> yeah i help in #kubuntu all the time too
<linuxmonkey> and did some artwork too
<Madpilot> cool
<Madpilot> that all helps towards membership
<Madpilot> are you on the Docteam mailing list, linuxmonkey?
<linuxmonkey> anyways for the wiki do we have an agenda on LP?
<linuxmonkey> im on the docs mailing list
<linuxmonkey> is there a seperate list for us?
<Burgundavia> no
<Burgundavia> uggh, more stubs
<Burgundavia> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/VLC
<linuxmonkey> lol
<Burgundavia> opinions?
<linuxmonkey> lol not much there now..lol
<linuxmonkey> it was created with intent for one of us to edit I guess
<Madpilot> Death to stubs, esp. ones for obscure media players
<Burgundavia> Madpilot: can you deal with HowCome >
<Burgundavia> ?
<Madpilot> UbuntuHowCome?
<Burgundavia> yep
<linuxmonkey> got something for me :)
<Burgundavia> CategoryCleanup is full of them
<Madpilot> some of the holes in that doc I don't know enough to fill - startup details of Ubuntu/Canonical, etc. I'll have another look at it, though
<linuxmonkey> ok cool
<Burgundavia> Madpilot: pass it on to Jane Silber for review
<Madpilot> assuming she has any free time at all :)
<Madpilot> it is post-release right now though
<Burgundavia> now is a good time
<Madpilot> yeah
<Madpilot> now is also a good time for me to go shopping. Back later.
<linuxmonkey> lol
<linuxmonkey> Burgundavia: ok so most stuff in the cleanup need to be redone? what if its a partial dupe from another wifi
<Burgundavia> linuxmonkey: Cleanup means it needs some work
<Burgundavia> bad style, incorrect commands, incomplete
<linuxmonkey> ok cool
<linuxmonkey> once its fixed do I remove it from the cleanup class
<Burgundavia> pass it by me first
<linuxmonkey> ok and if it has screenshots is there a place were we can upload those?
<nixternal> to intarweb silly
<nixternal> ;)
<Burgundavia> no, as attachments
<linuxmonkey> ok this is gonna sound dumb but how do I do that Ive never had to do attachments before and dotn see a button for it
<Burgundavia> drop down menu
<linuxmonkey> ok for some reason i got no drop down in konq
<linuxmonkey> gonna have to use firefox
<linuxmonkey> Burgundavia: what browser do u use
<Burgundavia> epiphany
<linuxmonkey> you like it?
<Burgundavia> love it
<linuxmonkey> so your on gnome?
<Burgundavia> nothing else
<linuxmonkey> ah. lol im currently on KDE
<linuxmonkey> i sort of want to get both on here
<linuxmonkey> lol
<linuxmonkey> im out for the night guys, ttyl
<Burgundavia> cya
<linuxmonkey> its 1:20 AM and I work at 9AM
<linuxmonkey> lol I havent slept in about 48 hours
<Burgundavia> you are nuts
* Burgundavia grumbles at hoary
<Burgundavia> my wired nic is not going to work and madwifi is borked for some reason
<Burgundavia> robitaille: do you figure it is even worth seeing if skype installs on Hoary?
<Burgundavia> wow, breezy takes about twice as long to install as hoary
<robitaille> Burgundavia:  I think it is a waste of time...
<Burgundavia> ya, me too
<Burgundavia> going to test breezy though
<nixternal> launchpad is going down in 10 minutes for maintenance
<Burgundavia> hey ghee22
<ic56> here, I'm back.
<Madpilot> hi
<ic56> Writing comments in a script.  Do I say "GNOME menu bar> Places> Computer", or "top panel> Places> Computer", or just "Places> Computer"?
<Burgundavia> the last
<Burgundavia> ic56: why are you not in #ubuntu-ca ?
<ic56> One vote for the short answer.  Anyone else?
<Burgundavia> ic56: see how our docs do it
<Madpilot> our docs all use the short way
<ic56> Burgundavia: I'm normally in #ubuntu .  I think I tried #ubuntu-ca once and it was pretty dead.  There isn't much point to it anyway -- English-speaking Canadians go to #ubuntu, French-speaking ones to #ubuntu-fr
<Burgundavia> ic56: you should check it out now
<Burgundavia> community doesn't happen with you
<ic56> Madpilot: thanks!
<nixternal> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/rss-glx  <- finished this. applied the basic style and guidelines, as well as fixed spelling errors and grammar. i sent an email to the doc-team recommending a rename in order to follow the guidelines
<ic56> guest_anonnnn: ubutu told me:  http://doc.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/desktopguide/C/hardware.html#installatidriver or
<ic56>         https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BinaryDriverHowto/ATI ... the radeon 9200 and below
<ic56>         https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BinaryDriverHowto/ATI ... the radeon 9200 and below
<Madpilot> ic56 ?
<ic56> Madpilot: yes?
<Madpilot> nixternal, thanks
<nixternal> np Madpilot..glad to be helping
<Madpilot> just wondering what the paste was about
<ic56> Madpilot: quack?
<ic56> Madpilot: just helping guest_anonnnn
<Madpilot> wrong channel :)
<ic56> Madpilot: :-)
<nixternal> lol
<ic56> l
<nixternal> BrainDump cleaned...email sent ;)
<Madpilot> that page could just die, I think
<Madpilot> it's so stubby it barely seems to qualify as a stub...
<nixternal> well..i kind of thought the same..but if it was to stay, then i made it legible at least
<Madpilot> good
<nixternal> instead of having it's own page...maybe have a general ===Definitions==== page
<nixternal> there you can put all the terms in one local
<Madpilot> I think there's a glossary page somewhere on the wiki
* nixternal searches
<nixternal> if there is and that is on there..then it can go bye bye
<nixternal> the only dictionaries i see are for translation
<nixternal> i will go through later and collect words in a notepad...see if there are enough to create a dictionary..and then maybe come up with a spec for approval...and then go from there...other needed that is more important right now
<Madpilot> good idea. Could have sworn we had a glossary page somewhere, though
<nixternal> i will look harder later..but as of right now i didn't come across one...if needed it can be built..no problem
<nixternal> another thing i do, for safety issues...i copy the original wiki text and save it...then i rework the wiki and save that...so i have noted changes...plus if somehting was to happen, i have a local backup too...
<Madpilot> you don't need to do that, actually. The wiki has it's own internal revision control
<nixternal> i know..but i do it for security
<nixternal> vinboy: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/WikiTeam and https://launchpad.net/people/wikiteam  <-- for more information concerning the wiki, the team, and the projects
<Madpilot> hi vinboy 
<vinboy> hi gusy
<mdke> Burgwork: yes I think we should
<pygi> nixternal, whats wrong with wiki team?
<nixternal> nothing that i know of
<nixternal> why?
<pygi> nothing, just seeing you are talking about wikiteam:)
<nixternal> ahh..ya..i was letting him know where to go for some more info
<mdke> it's a GREAT team
<glatzor> hi mdke. I still have got the problems building the xml files for my translated desktop guide. perhaps I missed to check out some parts of the build system. do I need to check out the whole repo?
<mdke> nixternal: are you still working on rss-glx, or can I take the lock?
<mdke> glatzor: what's the error
<nixternal> you can take it..im not working on it..
<mdke> ok, remember to click cancel after editing if you decide not to change anything
<mdke> otherwise it keeps your lock
<glatzor> mdke: all paragraphs that contain a link are not translated. validate.sh complains about missing entities.
<bhuvan> mdke: i'm preparing an article on ubuntu for a local magazine. i'm covering subversion and mailman installation & configuration. i assume i can go ahead (correct me if i'm wrong)
<glatzor> wait I rerun the translate.sh script
<mdke> bhuvan: course, nice
<bhuvan> mdke: thank you!
<mdke> glatzor: right, you'll need the entities that are referred to by the file
<mdke> nixternal: ok, I've cleaned up https://wiki.ubuntu.com/rss-glx a bit more, have a look. Diff is here - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/rss-glx?action=diff Thanks for your work on that
<nixternal> good deal...no problem mdke. now i have a better understanding on how you want those setup a little better
* mdke nods
<glatzor> mdke: where are these entities?
<mdke> glatzor: it depends which document you're using. Look at the source and check, they will have the addresses to them.
<mdke> checking out the whole branch is probably a good idea though
<nixternal`zzz> g'nite all
<mdke> night
<glatzor> mdke: who. 135 mbyte :) is it difficult to produce the pdf files? the readme mentions some programms that I have never heard of. or should I use the simple xmlto?
<mdke> glatzor: why do you want to produce them?
<glatzor> mdke: to make reviewing easier.
<mdke> can't you just use the html?
<glatzor> mdke: they will be ok, too. I don't want to waste too much time for this, too. :)
<mdke> glatzor: yeah, so I'd definitely advise not using the pdfs
<glatzor> mdke: ok, that is a word. 
<glatzor> thanks.
<glatzor> mdke: thanks. checking out the whole build system did the job.
<glatzor> mdke: by the way when do you plan to update the translated documentations?
<mdke> glatzor: I don't know.
<mdke> soonish, maybe
<cosmolax> hello! everyone.
<mdke> hello cosmolax 
<cosmolax> I'll like to help on Ubuntu weekly newletter's translation.
<cosmolax> Maybe first I should contact Matt ?
<mdke> cosmolax: great! Matt can definitely help, sign up to our mailing list and check out the relevant newsletter wiki pages too
<cosmolax> I have read the #issue 1, and I can translate it in two days.
<mdke> cosmolax: sounds good. Your local team might be interested in publishing the translation on their website
<cosmolax> In Taiwan we will have a Ubuntu Installfast, we hope we can provide more information about Ubuntu before that.
<mdke> cool
<cosmolax> so I think maybe provide a l10n news letter to get people's eye balls.:)
<cosmolax> Actually I'm a member of Ubuntu in Taiwan(http://www.ubunbu.org.tw)
<cosmolax> NewsLetter's translation is also part of our movement.
<mdke> great idea
<cosmolax> so if I got newsletter translated, and contact Matt a.s.a.p, and it would be put on Wiki of ubuntu.com?
<cosmolax> OK, I subscribed the Maillist.Next step is contactting Matt. Thank you guys.Tonight I'll start my translating (timezone: CST+0800) :)
<mdke> cosmolax: I'd advise you to stick it on the -tw website rather than the wiki, more zh_TW speakers will see it
<cosmolax> mdke: I will.After translated, I'll provide on our local wiki and ask people to review it.:) then released.
<glatzor> mdke: jsgotangco: what is the "default X_sequence" in the "Change default Operating System at boot" of the desktop guide is very confusing
<jsgotangco> ?
* jsgotangco checks
<glatzor> X_sequence is not a failed option and should be the number of the os
<jsgotangco> what section is this?
<glatzor> even the example file contains this option
<glatzor> partition and booting
<jsgotangco> (you'll probably get better answers from mdke since he's the author)
<mdke> glatzor: no idea.
<glatzor> mdke: the first reference to x_sequence at google is a problem thread at ubuntuforums :) http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?p=250229
<glatzor> I will fill a bug.
<mdke> good stuff
<glatzor> mdke: since I have now translated the half of the desktop guide, I am going to fill bug reports. Is it sufficient for you if I c&p the paragraph and name the corresponding section? Or do you want the exact line number?
<mdke> glatzor: as long as we can understand what you are talking about
<glatzor> I will try to give my best :)
<jsgotangco> wohooo bugs!
<jjesse> grin lots of bug mail for me this morning
<mdke> glatzor: blimey
<glatzor> should I stop? mdke
<jsgotangco> lol
<mdke> glatzor: no, keep going. You're obviously an extremely well organised perfectionist :)
<jsgotangco> very
<jsgotangco> heh
* jsgotangco looks at the g-a-i branches
<mvirkkil> jeffsch: ping?
<jsgotangco> yes! yes! bugs! bugs!
<mvirkkil> jeffsch: I'd like to talk about your docbook2moin conversion xslt.
* mdke starts triaging glatzor's bugs
<jsgotangco> go bugs go!
<jsgotangco> trillian?
<jsgotangco> jjesse was on windows eh?
<mdke> omg, I can't believe bug #48831
<Ubugtu> Malone bug 48831 in ubuntu-docs "lost+found is a feature of ext2/3 only [desktopguide - getting started] " [Untriaged,Unconfirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/48831
* jsgotangco checks
<jsgotangco> well =)
<jsgotangco> we do have reiserfs in the setup  heh
* jsgotangco plays devil's advocate
<jjesse> jsgotangco: you enjoy playing the devils advocate :)
<jsgotangco> its the best that i can do because i can't be the devil himself
<mdke> some of these really need a Importance=almostzero
* jsgotangco will think of some really nasty kubuntu-docs bugs
<jsgotangco> whoa
<jsgotangco> 29 bugs
<jjesse> for kubuntu-docs?
<jsgotangco> ubuntu-docs
<jsgotangco> heh
<mdke> there is a nasty kubuntu-docs bug already
<mdke> the links in the browser homepage are broken
<jjesse> the release notes suck
<jjesse> oh you were talking about a different bug
<mdke> yeah
<jsgotangco> wow some of these can actually be merged to one
<jsgotangco> but then, having more bugs make it more visible =)
<jjesse> hmm why am i only seeing 3 results for all open bugs for kubuntu-docs
<jsgotangco> meh let me triage some!
<mdke> jjesse: probably there are only 3 bugs
<mvirkkil> mdke: Do you know if anyone has developed on the xslt for docbook->moin besides jeffsch?
<mvirkkil> mdke: I need to contact him about relicensing and stuff..
<mvirkkil> mdke: Since I want to embrace and extend his work ;) (moin is gpl, which isn't compatible with CC-SA)
<mdke> mvirkkil: no idea, just him AFAIK.
* mvirkkil wonders why mdke's blogpost didn't show up on planet.ubuntu.com
<mgalvin> gesh the bugs keep coming
<mdke> mvirkkil: planet is a bit broken with my blog at the moment.
<jjesse> i hope people are going through the kubuntu-docs as good
<jjesse> but i doubt it
<jjesse> wouldn't it be easeir to chat on #ubuntu-bugs about all of these bug issues instead of spamming my mail box :)
<jsgotangco> heh
<jsgotangco> NO UBUNTU-DOC GETS ALL BUGS
<jsgotangco> PONIES EVEN
<DanielC> Hello, where is the hardware compatibility list? I know tht there is one...
<jsgotangco> DanielC: there's one BUT its not clean (the data needs to be massaged further)
<jsgotangco> DanielC: but if it works in debian, it'll most likely work in Ubuntu =)
<DanielC> I need to find a laptop that will work with Ubuntu. What can I do?
<mdke> DanielC: go to LaptopTestingTeam on the wiki
<jsgotangco> wiki.ubuntu.com/LaptopTestingTeam
<jjesse> check out the wiki page? LaptopTestingTeam
<DanielC> Ok, I'm there.
* DanielC starts reading
<DanielC> thanks
<jsgotangco> where are the bugs?
<jsgotangco> more more more!
<DanielC> Is there a list of recommended laptops?
<mdke> don't think so
<DanielC> :(
<jsgotangco> well the toshibas are good performers so far
<mdke> except for that page
<jsgotangco> DanielC: you're better off checking out the results of the official test units
<jsgotangco> from that page
<DanielC> Ok, I'll aim for Toshiba.
<mdke> I can heartily recommend the thinkpad I've got
<mdke> dell should probably be good too
<DanielC> mdke: What model is it?
<DanielC> I can't get Dell but I can get most other makes.
<DanielC> I was told to aim for a well known name (IBM, Toshiba are good).
<mdke> the thinkpad I have is ThinkpadT43-1871
<mdke> or thereabouts
<DanielC> Ok, thanks.
<nixternal> toshiba has a new laptop out, model starts with a "Q", but it is the most beautiful, the fastest, and has the best screen i have ever seen. i think i played with that laptop for 2 hours the other day at compusa
<jeffsch> mvirkkil: pong
<jjesse> linuxmonkey: ping?
<nixternal> probably passed out somewhere...
<nixternal> jjesse: i believe he was going to talk to you concerning the Kubuntu meeting yesterday and Kubuntu docs
<jjesse> nixternal: yeah missed the meeting yesterday and riddel mentioned he was looking for me
<nixternal> linuxmonkey, kmon, imbrandon, and myself have kind of jumped up and offered our services for helping with documentation as needed for Kubuntu
<jjesse> nixternal: that is awesome to here
<nixternal> that was in reference actually to a post by kmon on the Kubuntu/Meetings page in the wiki. kmon did mention he would poke you when he gets the time
<nixternal> i believe they hinted at like a Kubuntu specific doc/wiki team, but that is up to Riddell for sure
<jjesse> cool i'll be around, i noticed the meeting log wasn't up yet, where are the irc logs found again?
<nixternal> let me see if imbrandon posted them yet
<jjesse> nixternal: we discussed that here before but because we use the same tools as ubuntu-docs does and we all can work on all the docs we don't want to split it up
<nixternal> exactly...which is what i have come to notice the past day by helping out the wiki team now
<nixternal> http://people.ubuntu.com/~fabbione/irclogs
<jjesse> found it 
<nixternal> they are somewhere in here ;)
<jjesse> ubuntu-meeting-current
<nixternal> hmm..that is like the 2nd half i believe
<jjesse> yeah 6-06 is the first half
<nixternal> yup..looking at that now
<nixternal> i need some more poison...or coffee whatever it is this morning...brb
<nixternal> back
<nixternal> i also applied to the doc team yesterday per the conversations in the meeting and after the meeting. i have been kind of waiting for kmon on that since Riddell put him out in front since it was his topic in the meeting
<jjesse> cool, i'll have to ping kmon when i get back form lunch
<nixternal> good deal
<nixternal> have a good lunch
<jjesse> thanks have a good morning
<nixternal> hehe
<nixternal> lunch..where you at?
<jjesse> michigan USA
<nixternal> wo0t
<nixternal> <- chicago
<nixternal> from michigan though
<jjesse> cool, you are an hour behind me time wise :)
<nixternal> SW corner..
<jjesse> i'm from west michigan Grand Rapids
<nixternal> Benton Harbor ;)
<nixternal> born and raised the first few years of my life
<jsgotangco> chicago cool
<nixternal> moved to chicago in like 79
* jsgotangco used to live there but parents still do
<nixternal> chicago is hot now
<nixternal> im in the burbs now...couldn't take the hustle and bustle of down town, but i love the atmosphere
<mvirkkil> jeffsch: Hi
<mvirkkil> jeffsch: I saw you wrote the original docbook->moin xslt.
<mvirkkil> jeffsch: Is the one in the ubuntu svn the latest version?
<jeffsch> i think so
<jeffsch> i haven't worked on it for a long time. i was planning to do more in July/August
<mvirkkil> jeffsch: Would you be willing to relicense or dual license it to gpl, for use inside moin?
<jeffsch> yes. no problem.
<mvirkkil> jeffsch: Well, I'd be working on this in july too :)
<mvirkkil> jeffsch: Great. I'll try to create a system in to moin which would make importing docbooks directly possible. There is the issue of splitting off books' chapters in to articles, with the xslt route.
<mvirkkil> jeffsch: it's part of my google summer of code project :)
<jeffsch> great. how are you going to handle the loss of information in docbook->moin transformation?
<mvirkkil> jeffsch: In this inital step, I'm not going to haveto worry about that.
<mvirkkil> jeffsch: But I'm thinking some generally useful information like abbreviations and such should be made in to macros.
<mvirkkil> jeffsch: And I also have a plan of attack for possibly emebedding xml in to the wikisyntax and parsing it out.
<mvirkkil> jeffsch: That was a request from my mentoring organization, and so I've thought about it. I'm personally not very keen on the idea, but we'll see.
<mvirkkil> jeffsch: You can read more about what I'm going to do at http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/MoinDocBookProject
<jeffsch> yeah, embedding extra info into existing moin tags will probably work, but then you stop making moin and start making docbook, or something just as complicated :) :)
<mvirkkil> jeffsch: You're probably most interested in steps 3-> 
<jeffsch> ok. reading it now
<mvirkkil> jeffsch: Well, emedding it in to macros would work nicely for simple stuff. 
<mvirkkil> jeffsch: BTW, Sean Wheller (froud) asked me to say Hi from him, when I talk to you :) He pointed me to your xslt:s.
<jeffsch> mvirkkil: thanks, say hi back to him for me
<mvirkkil> jeffsch: Any thoughts or suggestions re the project?
<jsgotangco> hmm is this for your fedora SoC?
<jeffsch> yes, but I'd like to think about it a bit before commenting. Is there a place on http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/MoinDocBookProject for comments?
<mvirkkil> jsgotangco: Yup
<jsgotangco> cool congrats too btw
<mvirkkil> jeffsch: Unfortunately not :/
<mvirkkil> jeffsch: You can send mail, or comment on irc.
<jeffsch> ok. is this there an irc channel for the project?
<mvirkkil> Well, moin-dev might be appropriate.
<mvirkkil> jeffsch: afaic they log the conversations there
<mvirkkil> which could be handy
<jeffsch> mvirkkil: i will change the license on a2m.xslt and commit it sometime today
<enrico> What would you people think of this as a t-shirt desing? http://moon.bme.ym.edu.tw/photo/displayimage.php?album=26&pos=1
<mvirkkil> jeffsch: What's your timezone?
<jeffsch> pacific - west coast canada, ahmmm... -0700 i think
<mvirkkil> jeffsch: so it's 7:30am?
<jeffsch> 9:30
<LaserJock> jeffsch: you're on the west coast?
<mvirkkil> jeffsch: Argh. Yeah..
* mvirkkil can't count
<enrico> wrt http://moon.bme.ym.edu.tw/photo/displayimage.php?album=26&pos=1 as a t-shirt design, I'm asking your opinion because the original idea was to make something with the Ubuntu and Debian logos inside.  I think the result is cute, but I don't know if it's easily decoded
<mvirkkil> enrico: For what is it? Not sure how the deamon fits in to the equation?
<jeffsch> mvirkkil: have you seen https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/Ideas/ArticleToMoinDesc
<jeffsch> it was generated from a2m-desc.xml in teamstuff in the repos
<enrico> mvirkkil: The daemon should be something of a Debian GNU/FreeBSD
<mvirkkil> jeffsch: Was that the same document as the xml in the repo?
<jeffsch> yes... it is moin generated from the xml using a2m.xslt
<jeffsch> enrico: I see linux, bsd, debian, and ubuntu, but it takes a long time to figure out
<enrico> jeffsch: thanks
<enrico> It looks cute to me because I know the idea behind, but it's quite hard to decode
<jeffsch> and i don't know what the person in the lower left is for; only to make three? or is it for some other system?
<enrico> a t-shirt should probably not be hard to decode :)
<enrico> jeffsch: GNU
<LaserJock> rofl, that's awesome
<jeffsch> ahhh... I thought that was a viking hat!
<LaserJock> no, its the GNU goat or whatever it is
<jeffsch> it's the GNU gnu
<LaserJock> enrico: maybe you need to give him a beard
<jeffsch> gnu is an african animal
<enrico> LaserJock: ooh, right!
<LaserJock> jeffsch: ah, cool. I always thought it was some kind of goat. I wondered why that was their mascot
<mgalvin> enrico: haha, sweet, i actually like it a lot
<LaserJock> bombs away
* jenda hides!
<LaserJock> not here
<LaserJock> on the forums, hopefully nobody gets squashed :-)
<Burgwork> LaserJock, linky?
<mdke> http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?p=1108166#post1108166
<jjesse> fire in the hole
<LaserJock> hopefully I didn't sound to incredibly dumb and put the doc team back a release ;-)
<Burgwork> LaserJock, don't worry about it
<Burgwork> just wait until I let loose in there ;)
<LaserJock> the thing is I really appreciate all the work the USDF people have done
<Burgwork> I hate duplicated work
<LaserJock> I just don't see why they wouldn't want to do it on the wiki
<jjesse> i hate duplicate work as well
<Burgwork> "lack of ownership"
<mdke> Burgwork: I'd ask you to be careful on that thread
<mdke> it's already got quite over-excited in private
<Burgwork> mdke, don't worry your little heart, I am going to steer well clear
<LaserJock> oops, should I have not posted mdke?
<mdke> i think we're all agreed that collaboration is the way forward, but here there are social barriers that we just can't break through
<Burgwork> LaserJock, you know the fun I had at work, well, that person is gone now
<LaserJock> interesting
<LaserJock> ok, last one. I've got to get my bean count up ;-)
<mdke> you don't get beans for the community section
<mdke> but you should still go ahead and post
<LaserJock> doh
<LaserJock> no karma either :(
<crimsun> I'm a wussy. The forum scares the crap out of me.
<crimsun> (well, ok, not really, but the posts come fast and furiously)
<jjesse> i don't have time to post on the mailing lists plus on the forums
* LaserJock goes on a forum post spree, waahooo!
* nixternal watches from a safe distance
* jjesse falls asleep watching training videos
<nixternal> LOL
<LaserJock> no, not a flame spree
<LaserJock> a contructive dialog spree ;-)
<nixternal> from the look of it, you don't need to flame, because some of the people who reply are dimwitted and take stuff wrong, so it is them that usually starts the flaming
<nixternal> hehe
<jjesse> whats the link?
* nixternal to new to comment, but is keeping a watchfull eye and an open mind
<LaserJock> http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?p=1108364 I think
<linuxmonkey> jjesse: wassup 
<nixternal> oh no...the monkey is alive
* nixternal hides
* linuxmonkey mounts / :)
<jjesse> not much busy with work
<jjesse> i saw you are interested in kubuntu docs
<linuxmonkey> yes sir
<mdke> yay!
<jjesse> that's great rock on 
<jjesse> have you taken a look at where you want to fit it?
<jjesse> fit in
<DavidBertho> hi, I'm planning to translate the newletter with the french translating team, I saw on the wiki page that i should tell
<linuxmonkey> im also on the wiki team now too
<jjesse> great you can help get the Kubuntu page re arranged
<linuxmonkey> jjesse: I  fit in at alot of places..lol
<nixternal> wiki wiki...that reminds me of an old breakdancing song
<mdke> DavidBertho: great. I think it would be cool to arrange to publish it on ubuntu-fr.org
<jjesse> have you looked at KubuntuDocs/Edgy
<DavidBertho> we already talked about it on the french list :)
<linuxmonkey> yes sir
<mdke> DavidBertho: great.
<jjesse> feel free to add your thoughts, and you don't have to call me sir :)
<mdke> DavidBertho: you certainly don't need permission, go right ahead and translate!
<nixternal> jjesse: did Riddell comment any further on the Kubuntu related docs? and I don't think I have seen kmon at all today either
<linuxmonkey> lol
<linuxmonkey> sorry just used to it
<nixternal> omg
<DavidBertho> nice :) just a "little" detail : how can i create new wiki pages ? 
<nixternal> kmon is in devel right now..im an idiot
<jjesse> nixternal: i haven't spoke with kmon
<mdke> DavidBertho: I think it's best to publish it on ubuntu-fr.org, but if you really want to create a new wiki page, just type the url of the page you want in the address bar of your browser
<linuxmonkey> so yeah jjesse i was reading up on docbook
<jjesse> cool
<DavidBertho> ah ok ! thanks. i wanted to do that because it was explained on the translation page of the newsletter
<linuxmonkey> and was gonna tackle a few wiki pages in the cleanup section
<jjesse> tackle the Kubuntu page :)
<linuxmonkey> yeah there one there that im planning on doing now
<nixternal> there are a lot there
<linuxmonkey> im gonna do https://wiki.kubuntu.org/KubuntuAddingRepositoriesHowto :)
<DavidBertho> I got a question about the wiki : how to make a redirection ? (for example UbuntuWeeklyNewsletter/Current is redirecting to UbuntuWeeklyNewsletter/Issue1 )
<nixternal> #redirect pagename
<nixternal> #redirect ["UbuntuWeeklyNewsletter/Issue1"] 
<DavidBertho> i write that when editing the page ?
<nixternal> put it at the top..i just created a redirect for RichJohnson >> nixternal that way
<nixternal> correct..when editing the page
<DavidBertho> ok thanks
<nixternal> np
<linuxmonkey> question for png images what should i set compression to for the wiki?
<mdke> up to you
<linuxmonkey> k
<LaserJock> mdke: looks like we need a ubuntu-doc-forumtroller team ;-)
<mdke> my vision is that the whole free support community does that job
<Burgwork> mdke, did you get my query?
<mdke> no
<mdke> too many windows
<mdke> hang on
<nixternal> lol
<linuxmonkey> nixternal: your gonna love the page im editing now
<nixternal> im trying to figure out if my printer setup annoyance is a bug or not...you ever taken a look or searched for anything on bugs.kde.org?  my lord..i put every word i could think of for my search, and it still pops up way to many for me to look through this year ;)
<nixternal> plus you can't sort
<linuxmonkey> mdke who reviews the wiki pages once I did a major edit?
<mdke> linuxmonkey: if you want someone to check it out, write to the mailing list, we'll take a look.
<linuxmonkey> lol cant I just tell ya...lol just kidding, will do that
<mdke> linuxmonkey: you can, if someone is here and has time, they'll also take a look
<Burgwork> mdke, I can check it in a few hours if you mail the list
<nixternal> ubuntu-doc@lists.ubuntu.com
<nixternal> there you go linuxmonkey ^^
<linuxmonkey> i know nixternal
<nixternal> i was working on some late last night..they get answered pretty quickly in there
<linuxmonkey> not my first time using mailing list
<nixternal> didn't know if you had it available
<linuxmonkey> i got over 3k messages since yesterday
<nixternal> indirect bugs mostly
<linuxmonkey> ya
<nixternal> join the LaptopTestingTeam if you want bug emails...Comcast complained that i was getting to many to quick
<nixternal> they called me like 3 hours after i had joined the team and complained..was quite funny actually
<mdke> or just all the bugs
<nixternal> ya or just all
<nixternal> heck no
<nixternal> like i told somebody last night..it is like i have some sick fetish..i enjoy reading about other peoples issues ;)
<LaserJock> ewww, that is sick
<nixternal> lol
<LaserJock> ;-)
* mdke has written a mega blog post about fragmented documentation
<mdke> it's so long, now I dunno if I can be bothered to post it
<LaserJock> awesome
<Burgwork> mdke, rewrite it to be smaller. Concise is good
<nixternal> isn't that the only type of e.documentation?
<nixternal> ;)
<linuxmonkey> lol
<LaserJock> mdke: do it! do it!
<LaserJock> peer pressure should work
<linuxmonkey> lmao
<pygi> LaserJock, hehe :)
<mdke> it's more long than inciteful
<mdke> lemme see if I can tidy it up
<LaserJock> I'd love to bookmark it if you tidy it up
<LaserJock> :-)
<LaserJock> holy cow!!!
<LaserJock> my karma went from ~5000 to ~14000 just because I did one spec
<linuxmonkey> since when are cows holy
<linuxmonkey> lmao
<mdke> yeah, specs are mental karma magnets
<mdke> cheeky old sabdfl
* linuxmonkey loves his 0 karma
<linuxmonkey> lol
<LaserJock> well, uploading packages does nothing for your karma I can tell you taht
<LaserJock> *that
<nixternal> mine has been at 102 for months...but i always thought karma was bad...well at least it is for me...i never have good karma ;)
<nixternal> you made me look at it for the 2nd time since i created my account..thanks...otherwise i would have never known...what good is it for anyways?  can i get frequent flyer miles from it ;)
#ubuntu-doc 2006-06-08
<linuxmonkey> yeah at  14000+ they give ya a bullet and at 50000+they give you the gun to go with it :)
<nixternal> haha
<nixternal> that would be my luck
<nixternal> or my kind of karma you could say
<linuxmonkey> lol
<linuxmonkey> how long does it usually take for a mailing list post to propergate
<mdke> few minutes
<linuxmonkey> ah just wondering cause i sent it 10 minutes ago and wondering if any got it
<mdke> http://www.mdke.org/blog/FragmentedDocumentation.html feedback would be great
<linuxmonkey> mdke: arent u supposed to be working or be at work
<linuxmonkey> lol
<mdke> at midnight?
<linuxmonkey> oh i thought u had to work right now..lol
<mdke> no, thankfully not
<Burgwork> linuxmonkey, no, thats me :)
<mdke> linuxmonkey: smaller screenshots would definitely be good
<linuxmonkey> yeah 
<linuxmonkey> thats i can do thats no prob
<theCore> mdke: sweet page, btw
<linuxmonkey> other than the big imges what u think mdke
<mdke> thanks. I just realised I was posting about this all over the place, but hadn't got my thoughts organised in one place, and i thought it would help me think
<mdke> linuxmonkey: looks good. There are a couple of typos and the table of contents is a bit weird (only one section), but it looks fine to me. I'll leave more detailed comments to the kubuntu guys
<theCore> mdke: do you a blogging software, or you're writing all this by hand?
<mdke> well, I write the posts by hand...
<linuxmonkey> yeah the table of content is there cause there's more going into it
<mdke> the blog software is pyblosxom, with static html
<mdke> linuxmonkey: ah, great
<mdke> linuxmonkey: in kde do you really have to run adept like that? It doesn't have a menu entry?
<nixternal> just do the echo >> trick...adept = to slow for me
<linuxmonkey> yeah there;s a few adept in the menu
<linuxmonkey> there's and adept installer too so not to confuse people the run command is easyest
<linuxmonkey> mdke:  the typo's i think should be fixed now
<mdke> Your Lulu Order Has Shipped
<mdke> kickass
<theCore> mdke: Hmm, it would be a great challenge to merge all the documention scattered around the communities
<mdke> yeah, wishful thinking maybe
<theCore> mdke: but, it worth to try
<theCore> wishful thinking, I like that expression
<linuxmonkey> mdke: it probably easyer to start fresh.lol sad to say
<theCore> linuxmonkey: I don't think so
<mdke> we have social barriers though at the moment. I'm hoping that if we take the lead with the help.ubuntu.com site, we can encourage collaboration by inspiring it
<theCore> mdke: the main problem is not everyone has the same skills
<mdke> true, that's not a problem, but an advantage, if you look at it right
<theCore> mdke: some peoples, even if they know the answer to a problem, won't write a doc about it 
<mdke> of course. That's fine
<theCore> mdke: simply because, they aren't confortable with Docbook, or the Wiki
* linuxmonkey launches gimp to edit those pics to make em smaller
<mdke> theCore: right.
<mvirkkil> mdke: http://iquaid.livejournal.com/
<mvirkkil> mdke: fyi: the testwiki is broken atm.
<theCore> mdke: although, what we should do is to provider a uniform layer over all the docs. Like giving the ``Render as Docbook'' option for the Wiki
<mdke> mvirkkil: looking
<mdke> theCore: yes, that is a very exciting project (you know mvirkkil is the author, right?)
<theCore> mdke: for the forums, it would certainly be a challenge
<theCore> oh
<mdke> mvirkkil: SOMEONE HAS LINKED TO MY BLOG
<mdke> i'm so excited
<mvirkkil> mdke: :P
<theCore> mvirkkil: nice feature
<mvirkkil> theCore: Thanks. Not originally my idea. Henrik asked me to work on it, like a year ago.
<mdke> henrik is so sharp
<mdke> his ideas always turn out to be way ahead of the rest
<mvirkkil> theCore: I did the initial version then, it got a few patches (that broke the docbook)
<theCore> hehe
<mvirkkil> I'm just a code monkey, doing what is asked of him ;)
<mdke> mvirkkil: what does your mentor do?
<mvirkkil> mdke: He's on the docteam. He's not a coder, so patrik barnes (nman) helpes with technical stuff.
<mvirkkil> mdke: I suppose he's your equivalent afaic in fedora.
<mdke> that's his job, or he is a volunteer?
<theCore> there is a lot of howtos on forums, it would be great to bring them all into a single authoritative source
<mvirkkil> mdke: I think it's his job. 
<mdke> cool
<theCore> anyone know what happened with the Google's Summer of Codes?
<mvirkkil> theCore: ?
<mvirkkil> theCore: I'm one.
<theCore> mvirkkil: lucky
<mvirkkil> theCore: For fedora :)
<theCore> ah
<theCore> mvirkkil: what's your project?
<mdke> pretty nice docmentation guide they have at fedora
<mdke> theCore: moin -> docbook is his project
<mvirkkil> theCore: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/MoinDocBookProject
<theCore> mvirkkil: ahh
<theCore> mvirkkil: sweet
<mvirkkil> theCore: :D
<mdke> xmlto for pdf eh
<theCore> ah, I found
<theCore> http://code.google.com/soc/ubuntu/about.html
<theCore> there's a lot projects for Ubuntu
<mvirkkil> I wonder on what basis it's decided how many projects an org get to have
<mvirkkil> becausewhen you compare ubuntus list to fedoras, it just seems odd.
<mdke> crazy, in fact
<theCore> mvirkkil: I think it depend of the size of the organisation, Google gives to each org. a limit of projects they can have
<mdke> that doesn't justify the difference between Ubuntu and Fedora
<mdke> Ubuntu has more than it can justifiably handle
<mdke> fedora has 5
<theCore> maybe, fedora had less interesting project submitted to them, I don't know
<theCore> or maybe, Google likes Ubuntu better
<LaserJock> go goobuntu!
<mdke> yes, that must be the answer
<mdke> well, who can blame them, Ubuntu rocks
<theCore> LaserJock: yeah, I heard about it :)
<theCore> LaserJock: I got a question for you
<theCore> LaserJock: do you think the MOTU would accept a package of emacs-snapshot?
<LaserJock> umm, isn't there already one?
<LaserJock> theCore: did you want to tweak the current snapshot package?
<theCore> LaserJock: yeah, but it's quite outdated
<LaserJock> of course it is, we froze
<theCore> LaserJock: well, I would like to replace it with a newer version
<LaserJock> or is that not the issue
<LaserJock> theCore: the one from June 2nd that is in Debian isn't new enough?
<theCore> LaserJock: their package is from the HEAD trunk, mine is from the XFT_JHD_BRANCH
<theCore> LaserJock: maybe, I should do what Seveas does, build myself a personal repository
<LaserJock> theCore: that is probably more likely than getting it into universe
<LaserJock> you could always try to convince Debian to use the XFT_JHD_BRANCH
<theCore> LaserJock: I think I would have a better chances winning at the lottery
<theCore> Thank you for shopping at Lulu! - Yay
<theCore> mdke: do you know if there is a Docbook -> Latex converter?
<LaserJock> theCore: hehe
<theCore> LaserJock: I bought the PG
<LaserJock> really? who would want to buy that piece of crap ;-)
<LaserJock> hehe
<LaserJock> if only we got a royalty, or at least karma for book sales ;-)
<theCore> piece of crap?
<theCore> :P
<theCore> mdke: I have some ideas about that BetterWikiDocs thing
<LaserJock> theCore: like whate?
<theCore> We could separate the whole Wiki into a few sections. ( devel, troubleshooting, artwork, ideas, etc ) Each could have their own color "personally", so they would be easy to recognize them
<LaserJock> hmm, except devel, artowork, and ideas don't sound like documentation
<Kingbahamut> indeed
* crimsun kills his 'sound' highlight
<LaserJock> crimsun: you can't do that now that you're core-dev
<theCore> yeah, but the idea is to separate the Docs from w.u.c ?
<LaserJock> yeah, but more so
<LaserJock> like when I search on help.ubuntu.com for a doc I'm not really looking for a spec or some devel wiki page
<crimsun> LaserJock: pwned. :(
<LaserJock> hehe
<Kingbahamut> one assumes not LaserJock
<LaserJock> although it might be kinda cool to have links to the corresponding wiki.u.c search
<LaserJock> just in case ;-)
<theCore> "Lack of structure". I'm not sure we can solve this
<LaserJock> why not?
<theCore> well, how we could solve this?
<LaserJock> I don't know but we are smart people. I'm guessing hard work
<theCore> one way could to propose a StyleGuide for the wiki, but would stupid simply because less peoples would want to write wiki docs.
<theCore> another way, would to separate the Wiki pages categorically, so peoples could inspire them-self  with the other similiar docs
<LaserJock> theCore: there is a style guide for the wiki
<theCore> really? I never saw it.
<theCore> we could also put a default template for each new page
<theCore> based-on the category
<Burgundavia> Seveas: you still up?
<Burgundavia> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/OrinocoMonitorKismet2005Hoary?highlight=%28CategoryCleanup%29
<Burgundavia> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/OrinocoMonitorKimset2005Hoary?highlight=%28CategoryCleanup%29
<Burgundavia> anybody use that?
<robotgeek> nope, not me
<nixternal> Burgundavia: i use it, but not on Hoary. I have it on Xubuntu, Nubuntu, and Kubuntu laptops..with the orinoco chipset
<Burgundavia> nixternal: can you cleanup and merge those pages? grab a hoary install and play
<nixternal> sure
<nixternal> im sure it isn't much different...the one main thing with kismet to get it running is a simple config fix..especially for orinoco
<Burgundavia> cool, the simpler you can make the document, the better
<nixternal> roger that
<nixternal> grabbing breezy and hoary Burgundavia, ubuntu style, I use Kubuntu, so for Dapper I don't think their is a difference in setup between Ubuntu and Kubuntu..since Kismet runs in a terminal
<Burgundavia> nixternal: yep
<nixternal> hehe..gotta tear up my hacktop for this one 
<Burgundavia> try and emphasize graphic tools though
<nixternal> ok..so try to stay away from the sudo apt-get's
<nixternal> if that is so..then it will be real easy to do this. Since Kismet is in the repositories
<nixternal> another question is do we need to stick with the Hoary and Breezy on this, as I believe that a repository install is going to be the same for each setup. 
<nixternal> this could be made small and to the point really...its as simple as $ sudo apt-get install kismet
<nixternal> then sudo nano /etc/kismet/something.conf
<Burgundavia> it should talk about hoary/breezy and dapper
<nixternal> hopefully i can repository install with hoary and breezy also..i kno wi can with breezy..at least with hoary i hope so
<Burgundavia> cool
<Burgundavia> then redirect those pages to something generic, like OrinocoKismet
<nixternal> ya...i was going to recommend a name change
<Burgundavia> oh, btw, can you split out the orinoco parts?
<Burgundavia> nixternal: that talks about installing a network card and then sniffing no?
<nixternal> not really..each wifi card is different...there are only a handful of cards that will work with kismet
<Burgundavia> ah, ok
<Burgundavia> does orinoco work ootb?
<nixternal> for breezy and dapper yes
<nixternal> i will see with hoary
<Burgundavia> can you abstract it to just a kismet page?
<nixternal> this page has so much stuff...it is pretty much Orinoco
<Burgundavia> maybe Kismet/Orinoco at most
<nixternal> Kismet/Orinoco would be decent, but he also has Wifi Radar and iwlist in here also
<Burgundavia> ugh, can that be decently split out?
<nixternal> this is like a HackWirelessWithOrinoco
<nixternal> LOL
<nixternal> I haven't seen Wifi Radar in a while either
<nixternal> us wireless guys us Kismet at times...but rely on airsnort and aircrack for most work
<nixternal> Burgundavia: tell you what i can do, is i can work this up with kate, and then show you my proposal, and we can go from there. how does that sound?
<Burgundavia> sounds good
<nixternal> ok..good..i wil do that then
<nixternal> oh no...gotta find some blank cd's
<nixternal> ;)
* nixternal installs breezy
<nixternal> Burgundavia: on the install and my orinoco wifi works with breezy...so breezy and dapper will be exactly the same
<Burgundavia> nixternal: sweet
<nixternal> im going to concentrate on hoary now then
<nixternal> right now the lappy is sitting at the "[!]  Configure the network" screen on the breezy desktop install...and i can ping it
<nixternal> actually..i need to make sure though it is using orinoco and not ndiswrapper...so i need to commit...grrr
<Burgundavia> ndiswrapper is not enabled by default
<Burgundavia> hey bhuvan
<nixternal> its not...well then that is a good thing.
<nixternal> that means i can stop here and work with hoary then
<nixternal> your a savior there
<Burgundavia> hey LaserJock
<Burgundavia> hey darsha
<darsha> what do you know : )
<darsha> I noticed that there was an art team, that sounds interesting
<bhuvan> hello Burgundavia
<Burgundavia> mostly a disorganized lot, the art team
<Burgundavia> probably better to stay here, we are fairly efficient and on track
<robotgeek> heh
<Burgundavia> when you get sabdfl riding you to get stuff done, you know you are messed
<nixternal> Burgundavia: hoary has also detected the card and initialised dhcp from the get go...what should i do??  Kismet is in the repositories. It should install on Hoary, Breezy, and Dapper from the repositories. So the only real thing that would need to be done is the Kismet.conf
<robotgeek> lol
<nixternal> however, I am going to commit with Hoary to confirm this
<Burgundavia> nixternal: cool, favour default over custom hacks
<nixternal> yes
<nixternal> i think all he was showing was that he patched his orinoco card
<nixternal> that is the only thing i can see he did that would warrent everything he did with that page
<LaserJock> Burgundavia: well, I have Tim riding me, does that mean I'm messed
<Burgundavia> LaserJock: iffy
<LaserJock> :-)
<jsgotangco> Tim?
<LaserJock> I didn't know DM is mentioned in the Dapper release announcement :(
<jsgotangco> DM?
<LaserJock> nosey jsgotangco 
<Burgundavia> jsgotangco: product from my work
<LaserJock> :-)
<Burgundavia> LaserJock: no, we are going to have a seperate press release
* jsgotangco must have missed something
<Burgundavia> jsgotangco: patience and all will become clear
* jsgotangco thinks conspiracy
<LaserJock> Burgundavia: but it is in the release announcement, not really noticably but it's there
<Burgundavia> LaserJock: yep, hence the hurry up email we got from Malcolm today
<LaserJock> yeah
<LaserJock> nice to annouce stuff that hasn't happened yet ;-)
<LaserJock> I guess that's the corporate software world
<LaserJock> PR and marketing
<Burgundavia> LaserJock: I don't understand it, I just sell the stuff
<robotgeek> hmm, turn away from the screen for a minute, and i am lost :)
<jsgotangco> same here
<Burgundavia> robotgeek: Laserjock is doing some work for my company and it will be announced soon enough
<LaserJock> Burgundavia: and I try to package it, at least a little bit;-)
<robotgeek> Burgundavia: ah okay, cool
<Burgundavia> it will be shiny, crashy and probably mostly useless, tbh
<LaserJock> I wonder how the vmware package is going
* jsgotangco goes back to work
<nixternal> Burgundavia: http://kubuntu.pastebin.com/766703
<nixternal> ^^that would be the outcome of using dapper repositories to install the latest version from repositories
<Burgundavia> nixternal: on dapper, with only dapper?
<nixternal> well..the latest in the repositories in the the dapper repositiories...
<nixternal> repository install = easiest...can be compiled like the site shows...and just cleaned up
<nixternal> your call
<Burgundavia> sorry, I don't follow
<Burgundavia> are you trying to use dapper repos on older versions of Ubuntu?
<nixternal> for the kismet to try this out yes i was
<Burgundavia> that is not recommended
<nixternal> i found an old version of kismet in the hoary multiverse repos...and i mean old...i could go ahead and utilize the information on the wiki already..just clean it up and make it user friendly as much as possible
<Burgundavia> can you not use that releases repos?
<Burgundavia> how old? does it work?
<nixternal> old..and no it doesn't work
<nixternal> i think for hoary..utilize the current information...and rework it/clean it...and then upgrade the breezy/dapper versions
<Burgundavia> hmm
<nixternal> it isn't a pretty process for hoary, but it works
<Burgundavia> ok
<nixternal> when i say pretty..i mean not graphical...all terminal
* Burgundavia is glad Hoary is dying in 6 months
<nixternal> kismet is a terminal program anyways
<nixternal> arg..can this wait 6 months LOL
<Burgundavia> then just don't mention hoary
<nixternal> how many users do you think is still utilizing hoary with an orinoco card and is interested in hacking wireless...or sniffing it at least?
<Burgundavia> talk about breezy and dapper
<nixternal> LOL
<nixternal> i blew out my kubuntu install for that ;)
<nixternal> i only use my lappy for testing..so i don't care
<nixternal> it is installing while im working on other stuff..so it is cool...i will work with breezy and dapper then
<nixternal> plus the orinoco chipset is old...being replaced with atheros, prismIII and broadcoms..plus ralink here and there
<nixternal> orinoco is the original wireless chipset i believe..outdating prism1 and atheros
<nixternal> i will say this however concerning hoary on this laptop...it is way fast compared to everything i have put on it ;)
<Burgundavia> hmm, dapper has been the fastest I have used
<Burgundavia> hoary is faster than breezy to install and use
<nixternal> on my main systems yes..my lappy is old celeron 700 with 192mb ram and a mobile rage 2 card
<Burgundavia> ah
<nixternal> 10gb hard drive that is close to dying ;)
<Burgundavia> even then, dapper should be fater
<Burgundavia> faster
<nixternal> dapper is fast..but hoary is faster
<dsas> nixternal: I still have an orinoco chipset. I have to use the CVS version because it's USB and then it's still dodgy.
<mvirkkil> nixternal: I have an even slower laptop (650Mhz, 128MB), and I agree. 
<nixternal> oooh..i got ya by 50mhz mvirkkil
<mvirkkil> It's really easy to go from just surfing along, to swapping hell...
<nixternal> usb wifi = dodgy in every os there is
<mvirkkil> I think that dapper might be faster if I had just a little more memory on this thing.
<dsas> nixternal: It seemed fine to me when I used it in windows tbh. Maybe I wasn't using it long enough to experience problems though.
<mvirkkil> But the swapping is really killing the overall experience. Oh, and accidentally hitting f1 starts yelp 
<nixternal> i had previously used a linksys usb wifi setup...it would work, but i had issues with intermittence...plus my area is a wifi hotspot and then some
<mvirkkil> which makes the laptop unusable for >1minute as it's loading, and then 30seconds more as it's closing.
<nixternal> i am sitting here with airsnort running and i have 21 access points to choose from...and those are neighbors..i have 3 access points..so 18 aren't mine
<nixternal> and the neighborhood is roomy..not next to each other and what not
<dsas> I'm the only AP I can detect here. I live on a street of old people.
<nixternal> lol
<nixternal> breezy is taking forever to install
<Burgundavia> nixternal: it does that
<nixternal> i don't remember that b4..been a while since i installed it though
<froud> http://www.yankeegroup.com/public/news_releases/news_release_detail.jsp?ID=PressReleases/news.serverreliabilitysurvey.DiDio.htm
<mvirkkil> ...didio....
<rob> ?
<mvirkkil> she's known for spewing fud..
<mvirkkil> a lot of people regard her as an ms shill
<froud> mvirkkil: what is important for the documenation case is
<froud> Yankee Group determined a significant portion of this outage time is attributed to the scarcity of Linux and open source documentation compared to the more mature, established operating systems.
<froud> That's good for ppl in the documentation business :-)
<mvirkkil> froud: ok.
<mdke> morning
<bhuvan> morning mdke
<rob> hi mdke 
<mvirkkil> morning
<jsgotangco> good evening
<jenda> oi
<mgalvin> anyone know who gervasio is?
<jsgotangco> sounds like some hot italian model =)
* jsgotangco hides
<mgalvin> hehe
<mdke> yeah, I know him
<mdke> he's an italian translator
<mdke> mgalvin^
<mgalvin> mdke: ok cool, he applied for the newsletter team so i was just wondering
<mgalvin> i guess he would want to be doing the Italian translation
<mdke> we're coordinating the italian translation already though
<mdke> mgalvin: he applied for the docteam too, I'll have a chat with him
<mgalvin> ok cool
<cosmolax> mgalvin: hi
<mgalvin> cosmolax: hi
<cosmolax> mgalvin: our member has made a Weekly #1 transaltion.
<mgalvin> cool, for Chinese right?
<cosmolax> mgalvin: yesterday I've mail to yo.
<cosmolax> mgalvin: ya. Tradictional Chinese :)
<mgalvin> i noticed it on the wiki this morning, i already added a link to it from the main issue 1 page
<mgalvin> cosmolax: thanks for translating it! :)
<cosmolax> mgalvin: thanks :)
<jsgotangco> WOW
<cosmolax> mgalvin: I will keeping my effects on translating #2 and so on. :)
<cosmolax> mgalvin: today I have two people join my team, maybe next issue would be quicker and better :)
<mgalvin> cosmolax: great! glad to hear it
<mgalvin> its awesome to see all these translations getting done so fast
<mgalvin> cosmolax: thanks again for the great effort!
<jsgotangco> yes much appreciated
<jsgotangco> mgalvin: what's the next target btw? this weekend right?
<cosmolax> mgalvin: but sorry if I made something confusing, now there are two translated #1, one is on our weekly, the 2nd is on Ubuntu Wiki. Is that will bother you?
<cosmolax> s/ our weekly/ our wiki
<cosmolax> zard1989: hi ! ;)
<zard1989> cosmolax:hi!
<mgalvin> cosmolax: thats perfectly fine with me
<mgalvin> jsgotangco: yea, i would like to try and send the out every saturday night
<cosmolax> mgalvin:  zard1989 is also our docteam member. :)
<zard1989> mgalvin: hi
<mgalvin> cool, hi zard1989
<mgalvin> jsgotangco: mdz will probably also add some news at the end of each week (like friday sometime each week)
<jsgotangco> its nice to see the -zh time active lately =)
<jsgotangco> -zh team
<cosmolax> jsgotangco: thanks. Is also exciting to us. :)
<cosmolax> s/ Is /Its
<jsgotangco> good night
<jsgotangco> eh?
<jsgotangco> froud-away: nice seeing you here again!
<trappist> http://ubuntu.wordpress.com/2006/06/08/how-to-create-a-screencast-in-ubuntu/
<froud> trappist: that's a pretty good start to Hypermedia for the Linux Desktop
<trappist> never heard of hypermedia
<froud> trappist: basically what you did and what Istanbul does
<froud> trappist: nice that you create AVI, I am not sure that Istanbul does do that
<trappist> froud: I didn't do this, I just found it :)
<froud> trappist: understood but in your demo it created AVI
<froud> trappist: which I think is one more option not available
<froud> trappist: I knew of Instanbul but when I last used it it was doing ogg I think
<trappist> ogg is nice too
<froud> trappist: my customer wanted avi because they had to show windows users how to do stuff
<froud> before they move to Linux desktops
<froud> problem I found was that doing the first work was easy, but when it came to r2 we had to redo the entire file
<froud> even breaking down into smaller topics
<froud> Still it did help
<mgalvin> froud: hey!
<jjesse> hello froud
<jjesse> hello mgalvin
<mgalvin> hey jjesse
<froud> mgalvin: jjesse hi
<froud> Anyone tried potace http://potrace.sourceforge.net/ could be a nice way to use SVG instead of PNG in repo and generate PNG at time of build?
<jjesse> random thought, but i hate fruit on the bottom yogurt always seem to have the fruit last and it doesn't mix up good
<froud> Which in tern will enable l18n of screenshots to be done using the poxml process
<froud> put the yogurt upside down in the fridge, that way you will always have the fruit on top
<nixternal> jjesse: i second that about the fruit
<mgalvin> froud: i haven't tried it but it certainly sounds like a neat idea
<jjesse> froud: never thoght about that
<mgalvin> haha
<froud> hope it helps
<jjesse> hmm when you login to the wiki why can't it bring you to the last page you were at isntead of brining you to user prefrences?
<mdke> it can, check your preferences
<mdke> hello there froud!
<jjesse> oh thanks mdke
<froud> mdke: hi there
<froud> hmmm potrace also has a nice little gui 
<mgalvin> bah, a kde gui ;)
<nixternal> mdke: thanks for that preferences tip, as i was getting annoyed with the userprefs always popping up instead of last page
<froud> mdke:  :-) let's not get started
<mdke> froud: -> mgalvin, but yeah, who would use KDE anyway
<jjesse> some of use would :)
<jjesse> and do
<nixternal> hey hey
<nixternal> i use it and love it ;)
<mdke> nixternal: nod, that should probably be the default, if it isn't
<mdke> (remember las tpage)
<nixternal> it is now for me...thx
* mgalvin hides
<froud> mgalvin: :  :-) let's not get started
<mgalvin> :)
<froud> mdke: sorry
<froud> geeze dude it does a hectly good job
<froud> seriously has anyone considerd it as an alternative to generating localized screens for l18n
<mdke> we hadn't done
<mdke> but mainly because we don't really use screenshots
<jjesse> wasn't aware of it
<mdke> and yeah, we weren't aware of it :)
<froud> capture > PNG(en) > potrace > SVG > POT > PO > XML(fr, de, etc)
<nixternal> how come when i goto save my userprefs on the wiki, it takes for ever?
<nixternal> i have noticed this in the past also
<mdke> wiki is really slow at the moment
<nixternal> 60 seconds so far
<nixternal> i wonder if fasterfox is causing an issue with it
<mdke> it's the same saving pages, real slow
<nixternal> ya
<mdke> bbl
<LinuxMonkey-AFK> whats up
<jjesse> work, same ol' same ol :)
<LinuxMonkey> :)
<jjesse> just downloading the community technology preview of windows vista :)
<jjesse> only 1.2 GB left
<LinuxMonkey> lmao
<LinuxMonkey> yeah been there done that
<LinuxMonkey> ex-microsoft beta tester
<LaserJock> jjesse: how much is it total?
<jjesse> 3.2 GB
<jjesse> ok work over :)  see you all later
<LaserJock> cya
* mdke beheads LaserJock 
<Burgwork> 3.2 gb?
<Burgwork> ouch
* mdke tidies up his svn tree
<LinuxMonkey> 3.2GB and unpacked takes about 10 gigs
<Burgwork> the sick part is that is just the OS, not even the office suite, etc.
<LaserJock> right
<Burgwork> what is MS doing in that 10gigs?
<LaserJock> I was starting to compare it to the SuSE DVDs
<LaserJock> and then I was like "what a sec, the SuSE dvd includes EVERYTHING"
<mdke> LaserJock: how are you talking without your head?
<mdke> oh, keyboard, yeah
<LaserJock> ?
<mdke> 21:47:25  * mdke beheads LaserJock
<LaserJock> what? how did that happen?
* LaserJock feels a weird draft, but continues working anyway
<mdke> my samurai sword has taught you the evils of going around with you mediawiki ways
<LaserJock> uh, oh ;-)
<LaserJock> that one was just for Burgwork 
<mdke> don't get his hopes up
<LaserJock> hehe, sorry
<mdke> :)
<mdke> sorry for being a bit surreal just then
<LaserJock> heh, you have to give me a bit more context before you go lopping my head off
<mdke> when I get the samurai sword in my hands, I just can't stop and give you context... it takes me over
<LaserJock> I can understand that
<Burgwork> mdke, mediawiki ways?
<LinuxMonkey> mdke: can you check out https://wiki.kubuntu.org/KubuntuAddingRepositoriesHowto  and let me know what you think, I reduced the size of the images by 50% as per your recommendation for smaller images and made a few changes as recommended in the mailling list
<mdke> Burgwork: don't ask
<Burgwork> http://digg.com/linux_unix/UbuntuGuide.org_Reborn_for_Dapper <-- ugh
<LinuxMonkey> hrmmm no
<LaserJock> man, that was fast
<LinuxMonkey> official i think not
<LaserJock> I don't understand how it is so easy for that stuff to get around
<Burgwork> digg, the stupidity of the crowd
<Burgwork> now that it is a wiki, we can edit it to our needs
<LinuxMonkey> yeah please reffer to..... on every page
<mdke> LinuxMonkey: the formatting seems a bit odd, more space between the images and the text? also, the lines of text appear very short in comparison to the page. And I would nuke the table of contents, where there is only one title in each level, it doesn't help much 
<LinuxMonkey> and point it to our official pages
<Burgwork> remove the bad stuff, like killing the panel
<mdke> Burgwork: we don't have the resources to work on all the unofficial wikis around though
<Burgwork> no, we don't, but this one is big enough
<LaserJock> I've just about had it with documentation, tbh
<Burgwork> heh
<mdke> LaserJock: eh?
<mdke> don't say that!
<LaserJock> I admire you guys for getting in there, I just don't know if I can handle it much longer
<Burgwork> LaserJock, it goes it cycles
<Burgwork> I don't love docs for some cycles and for some I do
<mdke> heh
<LaserJock> I don't mind sticking to my little PG and UDR, but the large scale wiki and grand scheme documentation stuff is just getting to be too much
<mdke> henrik has written an essay on the UDSF thread
<Burgwork> then ignore them
<LaserJock> Burgwork: the problem is I care too much
<Burgwork> ah, I used to as well
<LinuxMonkey> mdke: how do I add space between the text and images
<Burgwork> then I got cold
<mdke> LinuxMonkey: not sure
<LinuxMonkey> lol
<manicka> Burgwork, you can't edit the unofficial guide ^^. It's not an open wiki
<Burgwork> manicka,  what?
<Burgwork> I guess they figured they would have us come and change too many things
<manicka> it can only be edited by the maintainers
<manicka> who are approved by the admin
<mdke> LinuxMonkey: maybe have a look at the style of this - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MultimediaApplications
<Burgwork> I have already nuked one reference in our wiki to the new uubntugide
<manicka> so I takr it your view on collaboration is slightly different to mdke's
<LinuxMonkey> mdke: thats how my code looks. lol and still no spaces..lol
<mdke> LinuxMonkey: how come your text is wrapped though? are you enclosing it in a table or something?
<LinuxMonkey> no i just fixed that issue
<LinuxMonkey> it was the menu doing that
<mdke> ah
<mdke> ok
<LinuxMonkey> if you reload it you will see
<mdke> what happened to the specific theme for wiki.kubuntu.org by the way?
<Burgwork> mdke, got a link to that thread now?
<mdke> the storage facility one? it's http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=190676
<Burgwork> yep, thanks
* mdke goes to sort out the flood of GIVE ME GCC emails
<LaserJock> hehe
<LinuxMonkey> anyone know how to add space between my images and text on https://wiki.kubuntu.org/KubuntuAddingRepositoriesHowto
<LinuxMonkey> mdke i figured out the spacing issue
<mdke> ah, nice one
<LinuxMonkey> the was a space in front of the text and messing it all up oddly ennough
<LinuxMonkey> there*
<LinuxMonkey> so can we take it out of cleanup now :)
<mdke> sure thing
<LinuxMonkey> to remove it all I do is remove CategoryCleanup at the end right
<mdke> yeah
<LinuxMonkey> Done and done :)
<LinuxMonkey> doesnt it look sexy
<mdke> :)
<mdke> LinuxMonkey: thanks for your work on that
<nixternal> ati love i tell you
<nixternal> xorg-driver-fglrx corruption after my kernel compile...forget that
<LinuxMonkey> ty mdke
<Burgwork> nixternal, just don't compile a kernel. problem solved ;)
<LinuxMonkey> just told someone to use adept to see apps avail for installation and got this response from a different user... [18:45]  <judgen> LinuxMonkey: apt-get ffs!
<LinuxMonkey> lol
#ubuntu-doc 2006-06-09
<nixternal> Burgwork: i have to come realise that after today, you don't need to compile custom kernels for ubuntu/kubuntu...they don't do anything else better...plus the repository kernels don't break stuff ;)
<LinuxMonkey> lmao
<nixternal> also noticed the wiki ati is good for the first time
<nixternal> eating and typing...1 sec
<Burgwork> nixternal, yep, welcome to Ubuntu
<LinuxMonkey> lmao
<nixternal> hehe
<Burgwork> nixternal, would it shock you to learn I have never compiled a kernel?
<Burgwork> I have run linux for 3 years now
<mdke> disgraceful
<nixternal> there are a lot of people that haven't..and have been using linux for a long time
<mdke> not real men
<nixternal> i used to be into that whole LFS croud back in the early 90's
<LinuxMonkey> would it shock you that I once compiled a kernel when it took a few days to do so
<nixternal> haha mdke
<nixternal> that was a cruddy machine
<mdke> i've never compiled an Ubuntu kernel, I have to say
<nixternal> 18 hours was my longest LFS compile...on a 386 in 94 i think
<LinuxMonkey> i remember when I used slackware..that was horrid to set up but when u were done it was solid
<nixternal> i bet i can pee further than you ;)
<nixternal> i bet my dad could beat you up
<nixternal> ;)
<LinuxMonkey> lol i got candy
<nixternal> i got peanut butter everywhere...can't type and eat, but i can drive and drink ;)
<nixternal> gotta check the mail....bbiaf
<mdke> Burgwork: just realised that we need all the wiki organisation pages included in the move too, we'll need them for the new wiki
<LaserJock> mdke: is the wiki license now PD (basically)?
<mdke> no, that hasn't gone through the CC yet, as far as I can see
<LaserJock> ah
<LaserJock> I thought you sent out the mass email
<mdke> yeah, that was a "wait and see how people react kinda thing"
<LaserJock> oh
<mdke> but if you're thinking about forum/wiki compatability of licences, any attribution licence basically screws any chance we have of using the forum material without express permission
<mdke> people so many people contribute to wiki articles, we just can't have an attribution licence without listing hundreds of people for most pages
<LaserJock> well, if the UDSF is CC-SA then ..
<mdke> delete the first "people" from that
<LaserJock> so then we can't really grab UDSF material, right?
<Burgwork> mdke, the WikiTodo, etc?
<mdke> no, we can't
<mdke> Burgwork: yeah. I've been tagging em
<Burgwork> LaserJock, UDSF used to be PD
<LaserJock> wonderful
<Burgwork> mdke, can we tag them as something other than CatDoc, to make them easy?
* LaserJock goes back to work and looking over the immensity of the UDR
<mdke> Burgwork: not for the move, the scripts just looks at doc
<Burgwork> ah, ok
<mdke> can we kill https://wiki.ubuntu.com/WikiImprovements ? looks like it is superceded by b-w-d
<Burgwork> yep
<mdke> we have too many pages with "wiki" in the name :D
<LaserJock> how about "HowTo"s
<mdke> yeah, too many of them as well
<Burgwork> and too many pages with Ubuntu in their name
<Burgwork> I plan on killing them right after the move
<Burgwork> that will be a perfect time to deal with naming stupidity, as the new wiki will have no google juice
<Burgwork> mdke, two things: 1 - moving a page should cause a redirect to be left behind 2 - redirects should be ignored in searching. Can this be done on the help wiki>
<Burgwork> ?
<mdke> killing pages = bad - urls to the previous wiki will break. But I agree we can be slightly more proactive in resolving naming issues.
<mdke> point 1 = not sure we should worry about it, given that moving pages will be limited access
<mdke> point 2 = excellent idea, we'll probably need some code
<LaserJock> heck, why don't we break everything and let people figure out that we are now at help.ubuntu.com? :-)
<LinuxMonkey> lol
<LinuxMonkey> when are we moving?
<Burgwork> mdke, it doesn't matter who is moving it, it should just work
* Burgwork grumbles under his breath that mediawiki gets this right
<Burgwork> I need to update the wiki style guide too
<mdke> Burgwork: the same amount of time will be wasted killing the redirects that aren't wanted. A checkbox "Create a redirect [] " would work
<Burgwork> apt-get and page naming
<Burgwork> mdke, there are no redirect that are no wanted
<mdke> yeah there are
<Burgwork> the only issue I have with redirects is that they are searched by default
<mdke> 1. I create a page. 2. I realise it has a stupid name
<Burgwork> if they are not, there is no worries
<Burgwork> unless the redirect is confusing
<Burgwork> everything I am talking about is how it works on Mediawiki, which runs the 10 biggest wikis in the world
<LaserJock> is the new wiki moin 1.3? please say no
<Burgwork> if it works for them, it is going to work for us
<Burgwork> LaserJock, if we are not running 1.5, I am going to cry
<mdke> you know full well that it is 1.3
<mdke> you've seen it
<Burgwork> ugh
<mdke> we'll definitely make upgrading a priority
* LinuxMonkey hands Burgwork a tissue as to not get the floor wet
<LaserJock> was that just to make the move easier?
<Burgwork> LinuxMonkey, thanks
<LaserJock> or is it physically the same machine? I don't know how these things go
<mdke> LaserJock: no, it's because upgrading to moin 1.5 is a seriously major operation on the Ubuntu servers. And we'll need to write a new theme too
<LaserJock> ah
<Burgwork> upgrading to 1.5 broke the gnome live wiki theme
<mdke> the theme api has changed slightly.
<Burgwork> they still have not fixed it, likely because jdub doesn't have time
<mdke> not so much, but a bit
<mdke> by the way, I thought we could remove a few links from the top that I don't think are vital and might make the wiki look a bit cleaner
<Burgwork> mdke, do you have full sysstem access to the machine that help.ubuntu.com runs on?
<Burgwork> in other words, if we ask for certain things to be done, are we going to be stuck waiting for a canonical person to do them?
<Burgwork> (which is never, basically)
<mdke> i have no access
<mdke> Henrik has been ferrying things across
<Burgwork> hmm, that sucks
<Burgwork> henrik is a great guy, but insanely busy
* LaserJock attempts to slit his wrists with a beaker
<mdke> they obviously just don't trust me
<mdke> :)
<mdke> I might ask, if it becomes problematic
<Burgwork> hopefully
<Burgwork> there are lots of little things I want to see addressed, to make navigation and editing easier
<Burgwork> I also really loved the look of mhz's slideshow plugin
<mdke> so, about removing these links
<mdke> I've tried removing the links to HelpContents, RecentChanges and the user's homepage, because I thought these weren't so important for the user
<mdke> http://help.ubuntu.com/wiki
<Burgwork> that works
<mdke> and then I moved the rest onto the same line
<Burgwork> this for logged in or anons?
<mdke> should work for both
<Burgwork> please restore the link to RecentChanges for logged in yours
<Burgwork> anons shouldn't see any of it
<mdke> I will look into if that is possible
<Burgwork> FindPage can die for everybody
<mdke> hmm
<Burgwork> there is already a find bar
<mdke> yes
<Burgwork> anon: no links
<Burgwork> logged in: edit, page history, recent changes
<LaserJock> what if we put links to like the top 5 pages?
<Burgwork> logged in wiki team: edit, page history, move page, delete page
<mdke> Burgwork: I get the idea, I just don't know if it is possible
<Burgwork> just epressing it very clearly
<Burgwork> I also want to kill the drop down, too confusing
<Burgwork> if possible
<mdke> presumably all this is possible, we just have to find out how
<Burgwork> someone from #moin can give us some love
<mdke> yes, i will put it on my todo list
<LaserJock> mhz can do some pretty cool things with moin
<LaserJock> I'm still very impressed with the gnuplot and latex
<LaserJock> warms my nerdy heart all over
<Burgwork> lovely, I like the idea of embedded slide shows, ala bbc's pictures
<LaserJock> glator sure filed a lot of doc bugs
<LaserJock> glatzor I mean
<mdke> \o/
<LaserJock> what?
* mdke has discovered how to hide the links from users who aren't logged in
<LaserJock> oh cool
<LaserJock> is that through the theme?
<LaserJock> or is that an admin thing?
<mdke> yes, in the theme
<LaserJock> I'm probably going to start a moin wiki for the Chemistry Grad Student Assoc. here  (I'm the VP for Events and Communications)
<LaserJock> I'll have to learn how to admin moin and adjust a theme
<mdke> it's not so bad
<mdke> you speak python so even easier
<LaserJock> yeah, that's sorta why I wanted moin
<mdke> LaserJock: some help
<mdke> if I have something like this in my python theme:
<mdke> if blah blah blah
<mdke> else blah blah blah
<mdke> and I want "else" to be "do nothing"
<mdke> how do I do that?
<LaserJock> so you want it to get out of the loop?
<mdke> yeah
<mdke> i assume
<LaserJock> try "pass"
<mdke> else:
<mdke>     pass
<mdke> ?
<LaserJock> yeah
<mdke> perfect
<mdke> thanks
<mdke> Burgwork: would you like the hotel moved a little to the left?
<LaserJock> heh, no thank the Python Essential Reference ;-)
<Burgwork> mdke, say again?
<mdke> Burgwork: nothing, a Fawlty Towers joke
<mdke> Burgwork: I've got the disappearing links thing sorted
<Burgwork> mdke, ah, ok. Not a fawlty towers fan
<mdke> if logged in, you get the edit bar with a link to the Home, to RecentChanges and to UserPreferences, if not logged in, you get a "Login to edit" link, and a link to the Home and to RecentChanges
<mdke> Burgwork: how does that grab you? Or would you rather get rid of the RC link too?
<Burgwork> that works, but I would nuke the RC link
<Burgwork> is really only needed for people who are editing
<mdke> that makes sense, ok
<Burgwork> can you get rid of hte dropdown thingy?
<Burgwork> page history is nice, however
<Burgwork> oh, and can you add a "discussion" link?
<Burgwork> and yes, the motel a little to the left please
<mdke> get rid of the dropdown thingy for logged in users?
<Burgwork> no, for non-logged in ones
<mdke> I've nuked all of the left hand links for non-logged ones, just "Login to edit" appears
<Burgwork> cool
<mdke> I'll upload it to h.u.c/w :)
<mdke> done
<mdke> argh, the bastard doesn't work
* mdke checks
<Burgwork> anyway, home I go
<mdke> ah, wiki config is screwy
<visik7> where can I find doc about restricted modules ?
<visik7> the new volatile tree inside kernel modules
<LaserJock> hmm, not sure
<visik7> and there are some thing that I can't understood
<visik7> e.g. there are 2 drivers for atheros cards inside the modules madwifi and madwifi-ng but madwifi is always selected how can I tell ubuntu to use madwifi-ng ? all this things are undocumented
<visik7> nevermind time to sleep I'll put up a blacklist
<nixternal> this laptop has been compiling modules in breezy for 2 hours now...this orinoco thing is nuts
<nixternal> it just works with dapper..that is great ;)
<nickrud> anyone have time to talk about the restricted formats page? Like, breaking it up and getting a common look?
<Madpilot> Death to RestrictedFormats!
<nickrud> all hail Java, Flash, Shockave, and WatchingYourDamnedMovies
<linuxmonkey> Madpilot: nah man too many people use that page
<Madpilot> yeah, it has to exist as a directory, if nothing else
<LaserJock> I'm with Madpilot 
<nickrud> likewise
<nickrud> I'd just go break it up myself, but this something the doc team should determine. 
<nixternal> hey Burgundavia
<Burgundavia> hey nixternal
<nixternal> this lappy has been compiling modules for more then 2 hours now...just to patch the orinoco drivers...jeesh
<nixternal> i will admit, Ubuntu layout seems solid...even in Breezy
<nixternal> i may dual boot this lappy with Kubuntu and Ubuntu maybe
<linuxmonkey> hey Burgundavia
<Burgundavia> hye linuxmonkey
<linuxmonkey> well i cleaned up 1 of the wiki pages today
<linuxmonkey> took me awhile to get it just right but i got it :)
<Burgundavia> yes, it does take a while
<linuxmonkey> https://wiki.kubuntu.org/KubuntuAddingRepositoriesHowto 
<Madpilot> anyone here still (or also) running Breezy?
<linuxmonkey> not i
<linuxmonkey> should of asked yesterday i had breezy installed on a server
<Madpilot> gah - from the wiki's DMA page: "My new 200G SATA drive does not support DMA at all."... erm, because it's a SATA drive, and it's not supposed to... delete key to the rescue... :)
<Madpilot> nah, had a question about Breezy's gnome menus, which I think have changed slightly in Dapper
<Burgundavia> Madpilot: I have an install
<Madpilot> Burgundavia, running currently?
<Burgundavia> Madpilot: will be in a sec
<Madpilot> cool. thanks.
<Burgundavia> Madpilot: what do you want to know?
<Madpilot> what's the Desktop background thing called in System->Preferences menu?
<Burgundavia> should be the same
<Burgundavia> let me confirm
<Madpilot> I thought it had changed, but that's just a vague thought
<Burgundavia> booting now
<Burgundavia> Madpilot: yep, it is the same
<Madpilot> thanks
<Madpilot> I updated some of UbuntuEyeCandy to Dapper, then realized I'd deleted the Breezy stuff, some of which is different.
<nixternal> @sig@ inserts a signature correct?
<Madpilot> yes
<Madpilot> it doesn't work in the wiki's Preview mode, though
<nixternal> ya i know that...i just brainfarted on the sig portion for a sec
<nixternal> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/OrinocoMonitorKimset2005Hoary    <- could be deleted...it is the same as (actually older) than https://wiki.ubuntu.com/OrinocoMonitorKismet2005Hoary
<nixternal> ^^difference is the spelling of "Kismet"
<Madpilot> I'd vote for killing the misspelled one
<nixternal> +1 here
<Burgundavia> nixternal: redirect it
<Burgundavia> linuxmonkey: you got help with the Kubuntu repos page?
<nixternal> roger that
<Burgundavia> look, the artwork team is creating more wiki pages
<Burgundavia> @
<Burgundavia> !
<Burgundavia> any vmware users here?
<Burgundavia> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/InstallingVMWare?action=fullsearch&context=180&value=vmware&titlesearch=Titles
<Burgundavia> for the love of all that is holy, pare that down
<Madpilot> Burgundavia, some of the Artwork Team folks seem to approach wiki-page renaming & creation as some sort of competitive sport ;)
<Burgundavia> indeed
<nixternal> Burgundavia: i use vmware
<Burgundavia> nixternal: can you please clean up those pages
<Madpilot> some of the pages have been moved four or five times...
<Burgundavia> one central page, etc.
<nixternal> i can work on them if needed sure...
<Burgundavia> why do people think that a first boot wizard is a great thing?
<Madpilot> you mean a "Welcome to Ubuntu" guided-tour/animated mascot type thing?
<Burgundavia> yep
<Burgundavia> I just found yet another page with yet another proposal
<nixternal> uh oh..not mine is it?
<nixternal> he got quiet...must be mine ;)
<Burgundavia> nixternal: FirstBootWizard ?
<nixternal> whew..thats not me ;)
<Burgundavia> UbuntuWelcomeCentre is another useless spec
<nixternal> that is actually similar to one i had previously done though ;)
<Burgundavia> please no
<Burgundavia> there are two places for it
<Burgundavia> yelp and ubiquity
<Burgundavia> another bloody app is not needed!
<nixternal> hehe
<Burgundavia> ok, done making my big sweeping statements for the day
<Burgundavia> so far, I have suggested a new direction for my company, told off people making a useless welcome screen, said shipping gcc is useless and lambasted people for creating yet more distro specific system tools
<Madpilot> a good day, then? ;)
<Burgundavia> yep
<Burgundavia> and this is all within the 2 hours of getting home
<Burgundavia> now I am going to tackle RestrictedFormats
<Burgundavia> ok, Java is now a page dump of every single Java page on the wiki
<Madpilot> ick
<linuxmonkey> Burgundavia: mostly did it myself with input from the doc comunity
<Burgundavia> linuxmonkey: cool, no need for me then?
<linuxmonkey> what do you mean by that
<Burgundavia> you eamiled the doc team and asked for advice
<linuxmonkey> yeah and got some..lol
<linuxmonkey> so im all good
<Burgundavia> good
<nixternal> Burgundavia: do you have a name suggestion you want for the VMware stuff? 
<Burgundavia> VMware works great for me
<nixternal> VMware is taken already, but that info could be compiled into the rest though
<nixternal> ^^is that alright with you?
<nixternal> just use that VMware page, and bring everything into it
<Burgundavia> yes, redirect as needed
<nixternal> ok..will do
<nixternal> redirect all the other vmware pages to the main one
<nixternal> once the main one is complete though
<Burgundavia> might it just be saner to recommend people just download the jre deb from dapper?
<nixternal> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/VMware
<nixternal> that is the future home..VMware was open
<Burgundavia> cool
<nixternal> i have 16 tabs of vmware open in firefox
<Burgundavia> indeed
<nixternal> if firefox could cuss..i bet it would right now
<nixternal> lol
<nickrud> Burgundavia, absolutely. It's not free, but it's the wiki
<nickrud> Burgundavia, you certainly do have balls :)
<Burgundavia> nickrud: the Java stuff?
<nickrud> sure, java should be easy, and the easiest way should be documented first.
<Burgundavia> I am thinking the easiest way is to pull down the java stuff from dapper multiverse
<LaserJock> Burgundavia: are you talking about Breezy?
<Burgundavia> or Hoary
<Burgundavia> I am testing that now, with Breezy
<Burgundavia> maybe we should consider pushing it into hoary and breezy -updates
<nickrud> dapper sun, and earlier blackdown. And the java-package stuff, maybe that should be hidden somewhere.
<Burgundavia> just going to kill it
<Burgundavia> I see no sane reason why anyone would want it
<nickrud> iava-package is still broken
<nickrud> erm, java-packate
<Burgundavia> package, you mean?
* nickrud walks ouf for spellling refresh
<LaserJock> want what?
<Burgundavia> to create java .deb with java-package over the predone stuff
<Burgundavia> ok, sun java fails to run on breezy, dammit
<Burgundavia> what does exit status 10 mean?
<nickrud> broken on amd64 and ppc fundamentally, according to the bug reports. Just do the repos, and be done with it. It's the best available from what I've seen
<Burgundavia> but what about people who want sunjava on breezy and any java on hoary?
<nickrud> Carry the old stuff over to a transitional page, and try to hook java knowlegeable people to vet it.
<Burgundavia> Exit status 10 means you didn't accept the license (see
<Burgundavia> /var/lib/dpkg/info/j2re1.4.preinst).
<LaserJock> yikes, I've seen that before :-)
<Burgundavia> does dpkg use debconf?
<nickrud> if the package used debconf
<Burgundavia> nixternal: you still have that breezy install going
<Burgundavia> ?
<nixternal> yes
<Burgundavia> can you try and install Java?
<nixternal> will do
<nixternal> i had to reinstall..hard drive died after power outtage today
<Burgundavia> oh, wait
<Burgundavia> never mind
<nixternal> lol
<nixternal> don't do it then?
<Burgundavia> no, don't
<Burgundavia> you need to do the jre first, to accept the license
<nixternal> you talking about a repository install?
<Burgundavia> no, dpkg
<nixternal> ahh
<nixternal> via wiki howto or forum howto?
<Burgundavia> wiki howto
<Burgundavia> rewritting Java
<nixternal> ahh
<nixternal> i always use the how-to int he forum...there is one that is super easy to follow and do...in like 5 lines java is installed and set as firefox plugins
<Burgundavia> what does it do and it is sane?
<nixternal> it installs java/jre 1.05whatever the new one is from java...very sane
<nixternal> let me find it
<Burgundavia> perfect, that works
<nixternal> it is always a paint to fine
<nixternal> s/paint/pain
<nickrud> (<Tab> means press the Tab Key) In the directory where you downloaded the sun jre, type sudo aptitude install java-package && fakeroot make-jpkg jre<Tab> . When that's done, type sudo dpkg -i sun<Tab> 
<nickrud> can be done in two lines, actually
<nixternal> http://www.ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=148075
<Madpilot> nickrud, it's easier than that in Dapper
<nixternal> that one is painless
<nickrud> Madpilot, very true
<nickrud> That is what should be in restricted formats / java
<Burgundavia> there is already a pre-packaged version
<Burgundavia> I am going to tell them how to install and download that
<nixternal> the reason i use that one there i listed is because i don't use the preinstalled Firefox with Kubuntu..i grab it from mozilla and install in an /opt directory where i keep all my little toys
<nickrud> Burgundavia, the section between Getting Java and Sun Java from sun, that
<nixternal> that way there if i wipe my system...all my toys are still there
<nickrud> 's what should be correct and complete. And it might actaully fit on RestrictedFormats :)
<Burgundavia> nickrud: it is all moved to Java anyway
<nickrud> Burgundavia, that is good. Now, just ditch Shockwave :)
<Burgundavia> already done
<Burgundavia> take a peak
<Burgundavia> peek, even
<nickrud> shorter for sure. But Java. You said you concatenated, but damn
<Burgundavia> I am rewriting now
<Burgundavia> LaserJock: how do I remove the key for the license?
<LaserJock> DM or java?
<Burgundavia> LaserJock: ie: how do I get the java package installer to prompt me again?
<Madpilot> purge the .deb?
<LaserJock> probably
<Burgundavia> that did it
<LaserJock> you doing the jre?
<Burgundavia> yep, figured it out
<nickrud> Burgundavia, as a temporary measure, I'd delete everything on your new java page except for what was on restricted. That is just too much info right now.
<Burgundavia> how do I get it to reconfigure everything?
<Burgundavia> nickrud: don't worry, that is what I am doing
<Burgundavia> nickrud: I just need to confirm that my new solution works
<LaserJock> Burgundavia: how'd you do it
<Burgundavia> It left -jre unconfigured. I need to tell it to rerun the configuration
<Burgundavia> there is a command to configure any packages left unconfigured, what is it?
<Burgundavia> LaserJock: &
<Burgundavia> ^
<LaserJock> dpkg --configure ?
<LaserJock> I'm not sure
<Burgundavia> got it
<nickrud> Burgundavia, dpkg --reconfigure -a 
<Burgundavia> got it
* nickrud goes off to spelling hell again
<nixternal> hey..with Ubuntu (im a Kubuntu user), is there an easy way to drop down a menu and get a screenshot?  key sequence?
<LaserJock> you hit the print scrn key I think
<nixternal> i tried...when i drop down a menu in synaptic..it doesn't do a screenshot
<Burgundavia> nixternal: for the menus, you might need to use gimp/krita
<nixternal> hrmm..
<nixternal> you know what..i have the synaptic install on kubuntu..i will grab the screens from it if needed
<nixternal> just for menus
<nickrud> Burgundavia, java is looking really better.
<Burgundavia> getting there
<Madpilot> nixternal, 16 *pages* of VMWare info on our wiki? Insane...
<Burgundavia> Madpilot: our wiki is really starting to come together
<Madpilot> yeah
<Burgundavia> we should have a note on all pages about talking to us about editing the wiki
<nickrud> having some kind of control, as in wikipedia is a good notion
<nickrud> just, I'm gonna enjoy watching others edit at that level :)
<Madpilot> Burgundavia, you talk about Free/Sun/IBM Javas in the opening intro, then talk about Blackdown in the next section without introducing it... 
<Burgundavia> Madpilot: yep, no worries, fixing that
<nickrud> Burgundavia, if I may: don't worry about details tonight. Get the overall structure done, and let others deal with details.
<Burgundavia> I will get it at least done for tweaking
<nixternal> Madpilot: 16 pages...with 8 referring to the same thing almost
<Madpilot> nixternal, fun
<nixternal> yes it is hehe
<nixternal> im gonna work on that now since breezy has a couple hours of updating to do on the lappy yet
<nixternal> Burgundavia: nice blog rant there...thx for that rss feed ;)
<Burgundavia> no worries
<nixternal> it was a good read
<Madpilot> Burgundavia, next you can rant about first-install wizards ;)
<nixternal> hey now
<nixternal> ;)
<nixternal> it figures...just as i start writing up the VMware Workstation howto, i can't dl it from vmware
<Burgundavia> hey jsgotangco, robitaille
<Burgundavia> Madpilot: oh, I truly intend to
<robitaille> Hi Burgundavia 
<jsgotangco> hi
<froud-away> hey jsgotangco 
<jsgotangco> froud-away: !
<Burgundavia> froud: long time, no see. Great to see you back
<froud> Burgundavia: thanks, been hectic
<froud> jsgotangco: remember that project I was working on?
<jsgotangco> hmmm
<froud> were going commercial :-)
<froud> http://www.tectonic.co.za/view.php?id=1022&s=news
<jsgotangco> oh yeahh
<Madpilot> we need to update doc.u.c - it still talks about "the docs we're working on for release with 6.06..."
<nixternal> vmplayer = stupid
<jsgotangco> man that moglen keynot is nice...
<jsgotangco> s/keynot/keynote
<nixternal> froud: freedom toasters looks pretty darn sweet man
<froud> nixternal: it's a nice project, now we are in the process of making it possible for anyone to build one
<froud> nixternal: it needs breezy
<nixternal> that would be good...i would put one in my buddies store front ;)
<froud> nixternal: we have v3 in testing and v4 in trunk
<nixternal> his store windows have m$ spam all over them...i will put up the Ubuntu logo over all of them, and have a toaster right there as you walk in
<nixternal> i like that id
<nixternal> idea
<nixternal> i believe as a marketing tool, that it could also provide useful in other locations also
<froud> nixternal: you are welcome to join the project. It's a small team
<nixternal> im not a coder what so ever, so what help i could give would probably be minimal though
<froud> nixternal: in V4 we now have the ability to upload music under creatiive commons
<nixternal> creative commons is helping out a lot in the free world
<nixternal> that is good stuff
<froud> nixternal: I need help with the docs http://www.freedomtoaster.org/?q=Build
<froud> http://www.freedomtoaster.org/?q=documentation
<froud> We also have translation in Rosetta
<froud> Our bugs are in Malone
<froud> Yes CC is a nice license
<nixternal> im looking over teh documentation now...
<froud> nixternal: we just made some changes that need testing, we need to update them alittle
<froud> We should have a through the web editing solution soon, based on Joomla + docbook::collab
<froud> that will make editing the docbook faster and easier for most users
<jsgotangco> topic?
<Burgundavia> froud: have you seen the moin2docbook thingy that is being worked on as part of SoC?
<froud> Show me :-) there are a few
<Burgundavia> http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/SummerOfCode/2006/MikkoVirkkil%C3%A4
<nixternal> i really like the idea behind that..i remember there used to be kiosks years back here in the US, where you could buy quick versions of a lot of software, but it wasn't cheap. that is why those failed...but there isn't anything for linux really unless you goto a specialty computer store
<froud> Burgundavia: yes I seen this one of the ppl at #docbook is working on it
<froud> Burgundavia: see http://www.joomladirectory.co.uk/news/joomla-component-news/docbook:collab-1.0.1.html
<Burgundavia> hmm, interesting
<froud> demo http://virtuemart.net/index.php?option=com_docbookcollab&Itemid=105
<Burgundavia> we are about to be blessed with choise
<froud> Burgundavia: my problem with the wiki is that transformations are not really backend
<froud> you need to generate docbook
<Burgundavia> if you generate docbook on the fly, it is not an issue
<Burgundavia> then lock the page
<froud> I like the approach of through the web db editing and storage on SVN working copy repo with automatic building inside a content management system
<froud> The process of development and production are nicely seperated 
<froud> BUt at the momenent docbook collab uses BFE
<froud> So it can support ll docbook
<froud> but only edit sdocbook
<froud> :-(
<froud> However, the system can support xinclude, entities, ato index, auto glossary, olink xrefs
<froud> and localization is perfromed using std gentext of db xsl
<froud> the system con therefore be compatible with l18n
<froud> s/con/can
<froud> The downside for ppl who dont like java is that we use Apache FOP which means we use Sun Java
<Burgundavia> ick
<froud> However, as things evolve we have a total level of indirection switch between xml toolchain components
<froud> The added benefit is that the new Saxon8 with RelaxNG support
<froud> We also have a project to do docbook2PDF
<froud> and there is alsread a docbook2worddddddml
<froud> As a result the system will output vitually all the major formats
<jenda> anyone know their way around drupal?
<froud> jenda: some
<jenda> froud: please have a look at: http://www.ubuntu.cz
<jenda> How can I change the link and text of one of the tabs at the top?
<froud> Ah yes that one caught me too
<froud> just a sec I must login to our system and check 
<froud> jenda: r you logged in as admin
<jenda> froud: I'm not exatly sure how it is with raghts there.
<jenda> *rights
<jenda> I'm logged in and can change the content.
<jenda> I'm not the #1 admin there. (#4 more like)
<froud> jenda: you need rights to administer blocks and templates etc
<jenda> well let's try :)
<froud> jenda: if != #1 then you need admin
<jenda> Hm. OK you sure? I have access to content-types, for example.
<jenda> froud: And where would the setting be, if it were?
<froud> Hold it was tricky and I must find it, it was not intuitive
<jenda> Indeed :) have been looking for it...
<jenda> froud: think I found it, and indeed, will have to wait for the admin. :)
<jenda> and froud, in order to add to the 'what's new' section, do I need admin as well?
<froud> jenda: Ah ha
<froud> I have it
<froud> finally
<froud> %$#@! Drupal is hairy
<froud> jenda: can you get to themes
<froud> If yes the, you will have two tabs
<froud> click the configure tab
<froud> DO NOT SELECT FROM THE THEMES BELOW
<froud> (that's the catch)
<froud> You will find the text box Primary Links
<jenda> OK
<froud> Edit the HTML there and you will be able to control the top right links
<froud> jenda: stupid system is it not?
<jenda> hehe, I actually quite like it :)
<jenda> But I can't get there.
<jenda> Will wait then ;)
<froud> no I mean how to edit the primary links, in general drupal is hairy, but kewl
<froud> Oneday I replace our home page by mistake
<froud> I was just learning, it took me like 20 minutes to revert the change :-)
<jenda> Haha :) nice one. Perhaps it's a good thing I'm not admin, then :)
<jenda> Which one are you in charge of?
<froud> http://www.freedomtoaster.org
<jenda> ah, the toaster :)
<jenda> any of those out yet?
* jenda will read...
<froud> you know it then
<jenda> Of course :)
<froud> http://www.freedomtoaster.org/?q=node/14
<froud> We have good few out in co.za
<jenda> nice ;)
<froud> We now give full instruction for anyone to be able to build them
<froud> new version is toalllay a breezy
<froud> v5 will be dapper
<froud> since dapper installs the LAMP which is our base architecture
<jenda> I just checked those instructions. Cool :)
<froud> We need to do some updates to them
<froud> last week had some major changes
<froud> we now also have ability to generate installation cd
<jsgotangco> this would be really useful for softwarefreedomday
<froud> so ifyou have no network connection you can still install
<jenda> jsgotangco: check.
<froud> jsgotangco: go-open used it for software freedom day and we take them to technology expos
<froud> jsgotangco: the toaster normally has a long line of ppl burning
<jsgotangco> yes but that's in ZA, i live thousands of miles away from a toaster =)
<jenda> froud, there should be a clearer statement of where these toasters are. I for one have no idea where bloemfontain is :)
<froud> last expo we burnt over 1500 distros
<jenda> You should add a 'country' to each one.
<froud> jenda: yes it is a point
<jenda> OK
<froud> jenda: come on holiday to ZA
<froud> I will take you there
<jenda> Hehe :)
<jenda> Would love to, perhaps in some time.
<froud> most toasters are still in ZA we do    have a few in Namibia
<jenda> Are they all in ZA?
<jenda> OK
<froud> We want now for people to build there own and then we can make the category include countries
<froud> jenda: FT is now also available in French
<jsgotangco> now i'll just need someone to sponsor hardware to be able to create one :/
<froud> jenda: more translations coming in Rosetta
<jenda> Hmm... what's the budget for a freedom toaster? (by estimate)
<froud> We sell them at R22000
<froud> 22,000.00 ZAR
<froud> South Africa Rand 	= 	3,268.70 USD
<froud> United States Dollars
<froud> Cheaper models can be engineered
<froud> We are modelling a solution based on a laptop
<froud> with external drive
<jenda> er?
* jenda doesn't understand the math above.
<froud> a special mold will be placed over the laptopwith the monitor detached and embedded into the front of the housing. The model is actually shaped like a toaster
<jenda> (this one gives an access denied: http://www.freedomtoaster.org/?q=node/55)
<jenda> hehe, cool :)
<froud> try that link again
<jenda> 22000 ZAR = 3 268 USD ?
<jenda> OK
<jenda> that makes sense.
<froud> can you view it now
<jenda> nope
<froud> hmm
<froud> ctrl+r
<froud> now
<froud> checkou this toaster http://wiki.clug.org.za/wiki/Freedom_Toaster
<jenda> yup
<froud> this script shows you the current content http://137.158.123.98/public/distros.php
<froud> this toaster is a bit ahead of most, but that is more or less the content that is available from all of them
<froud> notice Dapper is available
<jenda> OK
<jenda> I did ;)
<jenda> Very cool.
<jenda> I'd love to operate one here ;)
<froud> Toaster now go commercial http://freedomtoaster.org/medialounge/articles/freedom_toasters_go_commercial.html
<froud> Join us and start a business :-)
<jenda> wow ;)
<jenda> Or you could make a toaster slot machine ;)
* froud imagines a toaster at the casino
<jenda> Do the CD drives hold out ok?
<jenda> I'd thought the trays get ripped off eventually...
<froud> yes they hold
* jenda is afraid they wouldn't, here.
<froud> my toaster at Cresta has in excess of 5000 copies burnt
<jenda> but no-tray drives are available as well :)
<jenda> wow
<froud> Top distro is .... SuSE
* froud hides
<froud> We want to make wikipedia snap shots available
<jenda> eek
<jenda> But the toaster runs Ubuntu ;) why Hoary?
<jenda> froud: as in a CD-burnt wikipedia?
<jenda> MEGA cool
* jenda wants a toaster :(
<froud> jenda: yes as in CD-burnt toast
<froud> jenda original system was hoary
<jenda> aww... that is so cool.
<froud> new system v3 and v4 are breezy
<jenda> Oh, OK, now it's not ;) I stumbled upon something outdated, then ;)
<jenda> v5 - Dapper?
<froud> v5 will be dapper
<jenda> yay
<froud> yes at present we have to setup and configure LAMP
<Madpilot> Anyone know how to take screenshots w/ Gnome's menus showing? PrntScrn doesn't seem to work after I open System menu...
<froud> thx 2 dapper no longer
<froud> use ImageMagik
<jenda> Madpilot: there's a delayed screenshot tool somwhere...
<froud> must go
<nixternal> Madpilot: i had that same issue earlier
<jenda> later, froud
<nixternal> you can do it in Kubuntu with kscreenshot ;)
<Madpilot> jenda, via terminal I think you can do delayed screenshots, I think...
<jenda> Madpilot: and whatever you can do through the terminal, you can do through a keyboard shortcut as well ;)
<jenda> And I gotta go now too.
<Madpilot> later
<mdke> morning
<mdke> that's _far_ too much scrollback
<Madpilot> it's been a busy channel ;)
<robitaille> jenda,  gimp does delayed screenshot
<Madpilot> robitaille, does it?
<robitaille> yep...via file---acquired screenshot
<Madpilot> cheers
<jenda> cool ;)
<jsgotangco> :/
<mdke> jenda: "sleep 3; gnome-screenshot" works too
<jenda> mdke: I wasn't the one asking :)
<mdke> oh, my bad
<jenda> np, thanks anyway ;)
<Madpilot> mdke, thanks, I couldn't remember the delay command
<Madpilot> the number is seconds, right?
<mdke> yes
<Madpilot> "-bash: gnome-screenshot: command not found" - huh?
<mdke> Madpilot: yeah, definitely a CategoryWTF ;)
<Madpilot> mdke, heh
<mdke> that page can go, I'm sure. It is obviously unmaintained
<Madpilot> I outright deleted another CategoryWTF just now, but the one I sent to the ML looked like it might make sense to someone
<mdke> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/x86_64packages?action=diff&rev2=27&rev1=26
<Madpilot> yeah, it's been 10 months since last had a major edit. Delete.
<Madpilot> night all
<jenda> mdke: ping
<runes> pong
<runes> sorry just had to it's about 6am here
<rob> pong is the standard answer, yes
<jenda> Hmm...
<runes> well a brief Introsuction: I started using Ubuntu 9 days ago I migrated from windows server 2003
<Ubugtu> Ubuntu bug 9 in john "john: Does not build in Sparc" [Normal,Resolved: notwarty]  http://bugzilla.ubuntu.com/show_bug.cgi?id=9
<jenda> I need mdke to update ubuntu.com/support/local ... or can someone else?
<runes> I was suggested by Madpilot that I can contribute by sharing the workaround I foudn in online documentation
<runes> I read up on the manual of style and joined the mailing list figured I join the channel to get a good idea of how you publish and what types of content prior to submission
<jenda> runes: depends on where... this is the channel for the entire doc team.
<runes> wiki
<jenda> Ah, in that case... it's rather simple.
<runes> Oh ok so the .com and wiki are two separate projects in terms of documentation
<jenda> If you have a howto you can write, just put it up in the relevant wiki URL
<jenda> err... not sure what you mean.
<jenda> wiki.ubuntu.com
<jenda> that's the wiki.
<jenda> What is this howto about?
<runes> got it just wanted to make sure that I was formatting the content according to the guidelines
<jenda> I'm not really the authority on that... hmm...
<runes> jenda, appending to Madpilots' original documentation on windows users migration to Ubuntu
<jenda> wiki guidelines...
<jenda> Ah OK
<jenda> link?
<runes> figured start with the basics before I try to contribute more
<runes> sec I have it here
<runes> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MigratingFromWindows
<runes> was quite a challenge migrating had to remind myself of all the little details often left out
<jenda> runes: and what is it that you want to add?
<runes> jenda, updte the information to current applications 
<jenda> I see.
<jenda> In that case, perhaps work with https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SwitchingFromWindows
<runes> and a cross reference to many of the gnome counterparts
<jenda> as it is more complete.
<jenda> OK
<runes> is there a way to combine both removing redundancy
<runes> it would make it easier for new people to have one link with both documents combined
<runes> I bookmarked your link to compare the documents
<runes> if I do not have the rights to remove one then I wil wait until Madpilot gets online before makign any changes
<jenda> runes, combining them is probably being worked on (it says so at the top)
<jenda> runes: don't remove anything.
<runes> I wouldn't
<runes> I'd ask him though what he thinks
<jenda> If you are sure there is nothing in https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MigratingFromWindows that isn't in https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SwitchingFromWindows , set a redirect
<runes> good idea !
<jenda> runes: You don't need to ask Madpilot, it's a wiki - if you believe it right, act it ;)
<runes> oh ok !
<jenda> runes: to redirect, simply type "#redirect SwitchingFromWindows" as the only line in there.
<runes> only yafter merging the conten :-)
<runes> oops this 6am thing...
<jenda> If Madpilot or anyone else in 'power' dislikes your change for any good reason, they can revert the changes.
<runes> that works
<mdke> jenda: pong
<runes> what projects are you all working on
<jenda> mdke, i need a line added to: www.ubuntu.com/support/local
<mdke> jenda: sure
<jenda> mdke: "Jabber konference: Mstnost Ubuntu na conf.netlab.cz"
<jenda> (in the esky section)
<mdke> done
<jenda> perfect. thanks
<sten> hi.  I'd like to print out a copy of the Desktop Guide, and put it in a 3-ring binder, or maybe have it spiral bound...but I'm not sure if the margins are big enough for this.  Has anybody tried?  Is there a way to modify the margins of a PDF?
<sten> (if the margins aren't big enough)
<mvirkkil> sten: Would you mind giving me a link to that pdf?
<sten> mvirkkil: http://help.ubuntu.com/pdf/ubuntu/C/desktopguide.pdf
<mvirkkil> sten: You can't really change margins in a pdf, I think..
<mvirkkil> sten: But instead you can scale the whole thing
<sten> mvirkkil: how many cm do you think that that margin is?  (I also can't quite tell if this PDF is A4, or letter page-size)
<sten> ah, it's letter
<mvirkkil> sten: Huh? I'm pretty sure it's a4
<mvirkkil> a4 or legal
<mvirkkil> definetly not letter
<mvirkkil> It's a4
<mvirkkil> At least that's how it shows up in my system.
<sten> agreed.  I saw the 8in, and 11in in acroread and though "8in by 11in?  Isn't that letter?", but really should have bothered to convert to cm.
<sten> :-$
<mvirkkil> sten: Why don't you just print a single page?
<mvirkkil> and check if it fits?
<sten> well, I suppose I could. ;-)  I thought that I'd try to to figure out what I was going to have to modify if it didn't work. (perhaps I am a pessimist)
<mvirkkil> sten: You could check out mpage. It's a command line utility mainly for printing multiple pages on one page, but it can also indent 
<mvirkkil> which hopefully means it can change the margin :)
<mvirkkil> sten: And you can also specify pagemargins.
<sten> letter is 21.59cm x 27.94cm, and A4 is 21cm x 29.7cm, and I live in Canada will will be printing on letter... So do you think that the printer will scale the A4 down, to make the height fit, which will also make the width smaller?  Hmmm.  mpage.  I will definitely check it out.
<mvirkkil> sten: I think it will scale, as long as you tell the software that you are printing on a smaller paper.
<mvirkkil> sten: I'm actually quite sure it will scale.
<mvirkkil> sten: But it will also place it in the middle of the page, while it would be better for it to place it a bit asymmetrically.
* mvirkkil thinks printing is quite a complex issue
* sten agrees
<sten> cups will use ghostscript to scale A4 to Letter when printing, so it seems like I could use ghostscript (or some kind of ghostscript gui) to pre-scale the A4...  Maybe that's when I can modify the margins?  OTOH, maybe mpage's indent feature will do the trick.
<sten> mvirkkil: thanks for the tips
<mvirkkil> The gnome print dialog is wonderfully simple. One would just hope it would have some place where you could equally easily define printing methods for stuff like how to print a page on multiple pages
<mvirkkil> And multiple pages on one page ::)
<sten> mm. :-)  I think that acroread can do multiple pages per page though.  (no luck with margins though, although I can apparently set margins on the printer itself.  Hmm)
<mdke> sten: the margins on those pdfs should be 1 inch
<mdke> dunno if you can increase them manually on the printer
<mdke> sten: but you could always buy one of our printed books, it might be cheaper than printing it yourself
<mvirkkil> mdke: I was looking at the documentation. It might be a good idea to split the documents in to smaller chunks, and then just use [[Include(PageName)] ]  
<mvirkkil> mdke: on the wiki, that is.
<mdke> mvirkkil: which documents did you have in mind?
<mvirkkil> mdke: Well, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SwitchingFromWindows is extremely long.
<mvirkkil> You could have the subsections in SwitchingFromWindows/NameOfSectionOrChapterOne
<jjesse> SwitchingFromWindows i'd like in Kubuntu Docs for Edgy
<mvirkkil> and then the actual page would be just a bunch of include commands.
<mvirkkil> And then you could use some parts of it in other versions.
<mdke> mvirkkil: the page itself would still be the same length, right?
<mvirkkil> mdke: The resulting page, yes.
<mvirkkil> mdke: It would just simplify editing and sharing.
<mvirkkil> well, editing might not get that much simplified.
<mdke> right, yeah that would be a clever thing to do for documents which share the same things for different derivatives, but which differ in some respects too
<mvirkkil> yeah, like ubuntu/xubuntu/kubuntu
<mvirkkil> they aren't going to burn a cd the same way, but they will have the same chapters about generic security stuff.
<jjesse> mvirkkil: agreed
<mvirkkil> or "transferring your stuff from windows"
<mvirkkil> well, even that might vary.
<jjesse> but i still think it would be nice to re work it ito documents that could be included in the next release
<jjesse> that way it could be in chapter form and available at doc.ubuntu.com until it moved to help.ubuntu.com
<mvirkkil> jjesse: Well, that's where my docbook converter comes in.
<mvirkkil> or maybe not..
<mvirkkil> I'm not sure what you mean with your second comment
<mvirkkil> mdke: The docbook conversion stuff already support the Include macro, though I'm having some trouble there too where the resulting docbook is almost valid, but has empty para tags where it shouldn't.
<jjesse> if it is in the published docs, then it would't have to be in wiki form
<jjesse> so instead of looking for SwitchingFromWindows/Chapter1/XXXX
<jjesse> you could just navigate through doc.ubuntu.com like a "normal" document of ours
<mvirkkil> jjesse: True, but when looking at it you wouldn't need to go to  SwitchingFromWindows/Chapter1/XXXX, the whole thing gets aggregated in to one page anyway to one page.
<mvirkkil> ...*grumble* horrible sentence *grumble* ...
<mvirkkil> The end result in the wiki would be the same as it is now when just browsing, but behind the scenes it would actually consist of several wikipages.
<jjesse> hmm anyone been following UbuntuWelcomeCentre?  Apparently its a SoC project.... i think he should be working heavily with the doc team on this but it doesnt look like it
<mdke> jjesse: yes
<mdke> I have asked the mentor to have a chat with me about it
<jjesse> good, you know how i hate to see work duplicated :)  
<mdke> yeah :)
<mvirkkil> jjesse: Where can I find out more about UbuntuWelcomeCentre? (is that Ubuntu WC for short?)
<jjesse> wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuWelcomeCentre is all i know
<matthewrevell> Hello all
<mvirkkil> matthewrevell: hi
<mvirkkil> jjesse: Couldn't find it using google. Google landed me on a page that no longer exists :O)
<jjesse> http://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuWelcomeCentre
<matthewrevell> What's the current status of the style guide?
<matthewrevell> I've noticed the HTML preview is giving a page not found
<melodie> hello, could someone tell where (in Hell!) has gone the hard/laptop section of the documentation ?
<mvirkkil> melodie: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/HardwareSupportMachinesLaptops
<melodie> mvirkkil, thks!  :))
<mvirkkil> melodie: oops, wrong address. That's not in hell ;)
<melodie> lol
<mvirkkil> hmm.. Time from question to answer < 1 minute, and I had no idea where they were moved. I just searched for the page.
<mdke> matthewrevell: it hasn't had much work for a bit
<melodie> mvirkkil, in Google or whatsoever like that ?
<mdke> matthewrevell: the link works though - http://doc.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/styleguide/en/index.html
<melodie> Hello mdke, how d'you do ?
<mdke> melodie: fine thanks, you?
<matthewrevell> mdke: Cheers. I'll update the Getting Start page to fix the link
<melodie> Ok, I go to Ubuntu now,
<mdke> matthewrevell: some of the sections need fleshing out and we've been thinking about some more sections too
<mvirkkil> melodie: Now, in the wiki.
<melodie> mdke : I moved to Archlinux, but try to keep a dual Ubuntu, though the Dapper seems not to like my laptop
<mdke> aha
<matthewrevell> mdke: I've been meaning to help with the docs for some time. I thought I should probably start by looking at the style guide :)
<mdke> matthewrevell: welcome :)
<matthewrevell> mdke: Thak you!
<mdke> matthewrevell: are you the MR of lug radio fame?
<matthewrevell> mdke: I wouldn't call it fame, but yes :)
<mdke> infame then
<mvirkkil> wow. We have a celebrity right in #ubuntu-doc.
<matthewrevell> Yes, infamy :) Ha.
<melodie> I noticed the Sitemap page does'nt exist anymore, It used to be practicle... 
<mdke> melodie: on which website?
<matthewrevell> So, are the mailing list archives the best place to get up to speed?
<mdke> matthewrevell: yeah. If you can, talk to jeffsch at some stage about plans for the styleguide, he keeps an eye on that doc
<matthewrevell> mdke: Cool, will try to catch him on here.
<mdke> nice, thanks
<melodie> mdke, here : http://www.ubuntu.com/sitemap
<mdke> melodie: ah
<melodie> mdke, :)
<melodie> salut, et au plaisir... (nice weather--->out!  :D 
<melodie> away
<jjesse> man i like the kubuntu theme to the wiki so much better then the default theme :)
<mdke> for me it is the same theme
<mdke> ah, perhaps that is my preferences
<jsgotangco> heh
<mvirkkil> The "WhatWindowsUsersWant"-statistics are quite out of date..
<jsgotangco> that's like a year old i believe
<mdke> we need a new page with lists of equivalent documentation, that page isn't really documentation at all
<mdke> http://doc.gwos.org/index.php/AppHelper has a nice list
<mvirkkil> mdke: I suppose a list of equivalents is the important part of the page and not the statistics.
<mvirkkil> ?
<mdke> mvirkkil: well, that page is basically a marketing discussion, rather than aimed at providing information for users
<mdke> we need to make a separate one with a list of equivalent applications
<mvirkkil> mdke: what I'm trying to ask, is if there is interest in re-counting the numbers? :)
<mdke> not from me, but maybe the author of that page or someone involved in marketing might be
* mvirkkil is off to ask ubuntu-marketing
<mvirkkil>  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/HardwareSupportMachinesLaptops & https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LaptopTestingTeam
<mvirkkil> Those two don't seem to link to eachother much...
<jsgotangco> it was a result of some marketing study by a guy in AU that presented it during UDU
<mvirkkil> jsgotangco: Tim something.. I wrote the script to collect the statistics.
<mvirkkil> jsgotangco: But it was for more or less one time use.
<jsgotangco> ahhh
<mvirkkil> IIRC his version 1 was done by counting by hand, while version 2 was done using my script.
<jsgotangco> uggh this compiler on default thread is dragging alrady
<LaserJock> really?
<LaserJock> I personally don't see a big deal
<LaserJock> as long as it is documented somewhere
<jsgotangco> yes
<jsgotangco> i mean
<jsgotangco> build-essential is already there
<LaserJock> yep
<jsgotangco> just tell them its there and that's it
<LaserJock> yep
<jsgotangco> if it gets installed by default, tell it as well
<LaserJock> yep
<jsgotangco> i dunno i guess it is man's nature to argue
<LaserJock> geeks and their toys, shesh ;-)
<trappist> well the question is whether to install it by default, and there are good arguments on both sides of that
<trappist> he did *ask* for input :)
<LaserJock> sure, and I think mdz is doing a great job of getting out there and asking for feedback
<LaserJock> I just don't see why it really matters much either way
<LaserJock> it's not like gcc is in Universe or something :-)
<jsgotangco> i just find the topic is not going to end unless mdz gives a decision (or probably after paris)
<LaserJock> IMO, this is why I'd like to have some kind of advanced user guide (not that any of them would read it of course ;-) )
<LaserJock> I'm thinking of writing a Python doc spec for Paris
<LaserJock> at least sabdfl might appreciate it ;-)
<jsgotangco> good night
<LaserJock> cya jsgotangco 
<LaserJock> mdke: is there a wiki wishlist somewhere? maybe just the wiki todo list?
<LaserJock> -motu has a doc that they really would like cleaned up
<mdke> LaserJock: WikiToDo, yeah
<LaserJock> the live cd customization wiki page needs major help
<mdke> right, Kamion said he was going to look at it, I'll remind him
<LaserJock> tseng says http://www.atworkonline.it/~bibe/ubuntu/custom-livecd.htm is good
<mdke> LaserJock: no licence though. Maybe include a link to it if you add the livecd page to WikiToDo and note that it can't be outright copied without the author's permission
<LaserJock> yeah, I wondered that too
<LaserJock> ack so there is a dapper specific LiveCD wiki page and then a generic one?
<mdke> looks like it yes
<mdke> so Tollef says that page is fine
<LaserJock> hmm
<LaserJock> maybe it was the non-dapper one that was the problem
<mdke> was it only a problem because it didn't work for dapper, or for some other reason?
<LaserJock> well, my  experience was that few people could get it to work
<mdke> on hoary/breezy?
<LaserJock> dapper
<mdke> right, because as it says, it is for hoary/breezy, or am I misunderstanding?
<LaserJock> it could be that the dapper page was mad because of that
<LaserJock> I'm not sure
<LaserJock> all I know is that that was the most frequent non-packaging question I was getting in -motu
<LaserJock> and tseng and a couple other guys in -motu said it was also a problem
<LaserJock> but maybe it was because people were using the non-dapper version for dapper, not really sure
* mdke updates the page to make it clear
<LaserJock> I wasn't aware that there was 2 versions
<mdke> me neither, until just now
<LaserJock> well, I have noticed that people don't seem to be complaining about it as much anymore
<LaserJock> maybe the problem is solved
<LaserJock> except if people don't get to the Dapper one, for whatever reason
<mdke> it's a good example of why we need to make it clear about what version pages apply to
<LaserJock> yep
<LaserJock> is it #REDIRECT ?
<nixternal> yes LaserJock
<nixternal> #redirect page
<nalioth> howdy y'all
<LaserJock> hi nalioth 
<pygi> hey nalioth 
<nalioth> i have a question about that <blanketyblankblankblank> moin page
<LaserJock> which one
<nalioth> i'm trying to get email@email.net?subject="subject here"   to work right
<nalioth> the wiki
<Burgwork> nalioth, you want people to be able to email you?
<nalioth> Burgwork:https://wiki.ubuntu.com/NewUsersNetworkGuidelines
<nalioth> i want a subject line i can route into a folder in my email
<nalioth> nobody around that knows how to tame moinmoin ?
<mdke> what have you tried?
<nalioth> i've tried user@email.dot?subject="subject here" and it prints it out just like that
<nalioth> doesnt hide the ?subject*
<nalioth> and i'm (fortunately or not) unfamiliar with how to work moinmoin
<mdke> I can't see any way to do it
<nalioth> another reason to love moinmoin
<mdke> because it doesn't help you filter email?
<mdke> uhuh
<nalioth> because it doesnt do what standard html does
<mdke> you could use the HTML parser, if it were installed, which it isn't
<nalioth> ok, thanks guys
<mdke> #moin might be able to help better
<nalioth> i was going there next, lol
<nalioth> i will return and enlighten you as to what i find
<mdke> ok
<mdke> maybe a newer version of moin supports it
<nalioth> mdke: the mailto macro solves it  http://moinmoin.wikiwikiweb.de/HelpOnMacros
<nixternal> ok..the remember last page pref is very annoying. because of it, i cannot goto the wiki main page
<LaserJock> ack, do we have a wiki page on upgrading from 510 to 6.06
<nalioth> i thought we did
<Burgwork> release notes?
<Burgwork> it is pretty easy
<LaserJock> I found https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DapperUpgrades
<nalioth> that mailto macro for moinmoin is the cats pyjamas
<nixternal> lol nalioth...i was just playing with it in the sandbox...do you know if you can hide the subject line though from displaying on the wiki itself?
<nalioth> nixternal: i'm not sure, but i'm happy now that my string is all hot-clickable
<nixternal> hehe...i hear you...that is nice to use for sure
<Burgwork> wow, lets watch the artwork redo their wiki pages one more time1
<Burgwork> !
<nixternal> lol
<nalioth> love those artists
<nalioth> ok guys, y'all take it easy
<nalioth> thanks for your time
<nixternal> nalioth obviously isn't from the south..he said y'all and  not ya'll or yawl
<LaserJock> hmm, I find things like that hard to spell
<nixternal> lol
<Burgwork> LaserJock, tim is getting on my case. Where are we?
<LaserJock> like yay as in "wahoo, I'm happy"
<LaserJock> Burgwork: umm, I'm waiting for Jason
<Burgwork> LaserJock, ok, can you communicate that?
<LaserJock> I guess, aren't we ahead of schedule?
<LaserJock> I thought I was supposed to get new stuff Monday or Tuesday
<Burgwork> no idea. I just got a phone call from tim asking where we are
* Burgwork grumbles about mad bosses
<LaserJock> ok, I'll reply to his email to reassure him we are on schedule, how's that ;-)
<Burgwork> sweet, that works for me
<LaserJock> lol, I gotta keep you employed here :-)
* Burgwork hugs LaserJock 
<LaserJock> hehe
<LaserJock> hope it helps
<mdke> what are you guys working on?
<mdke> sounds all secretive!
<Burgwork> mdke, all will come clear in due course
<LaserJock> super top secret
<mdke> is it Ubuntu related?
<Burgwork> yes
<mdke> ah, damn you and your secrets
<mdke> Burgwork: see the WikiGuide page?
<mdke> any thoughts?
<Burgwork> mdke, on my list of things to look at
<mdke> cool
#ubuntu-doc 2006-06-10
<mdke> Plug_: are you the chap who posted the mailing list recently?
* mdke is ashamed that there was no reply, and goes to do so immediately
<Burgwork> mdke, on my todo list, but I have been at work all day
<mdke> Burgwork: no prob, I'm going to reply now, work is but a distant memory
<mdke> Burgwork: by the way, your idea yesterday for automatic talk pages: it might be possible to do it with the PageComment2 macro. It is basically a comment box which the reader can enter a comment into, and we might be able to make it use a talk page by default
<LaserJock> oh, cool
<mdke> it basically creates a forum effect
<Burgwork> mdke, that works
<mdke> what do people think of giving up with the /forum section on the wiki, it's not really working. WikiTeam/Issues seems to propose getting rid of it. We can work productively with forum contributors without it, I think
<Burgwork> mdke, I like it
<Burgwork> the idea, not the /forum section
* mdke nods
<mdke> I'm making a DocumentationTemplate too
* mdke is getting excited about the wiki again
<mdke> there are some cool macros we can use
<LaserJock> mdke: at least somebody's excited ;-)
<mdke> LaserJock: you need a holiday
<crimsun_> no, he needs more work =] 
<mdke> LaserJock: I've heard Paris is nice this time of year
<LaserJock> mdke: dude, I have to write specs, no play time for me
<LaserJock> btw, I added a doc spec today
<mdke> that will get you excited, no?
<mdke> what spec?
<LaserJock> https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+spec/scripting-for-users-doc
<LaserJock> but I haven't written the wiki part yet
<LaserJock> heck, I've got half written forum posts, specs in progress, most of a package
<LaserJock> and I'm trying to discuss work with my undergrad
<LaserJock> Paris is starting to sound nice :-)
<mdke> ffs, ctrl click doesn't work properly in launchpad
<Burgwork> mdke, does for me
<mdke> Burgwork: go to the list of specs, and ctrl click one which is down the page
<mdke> Burgwork: it is impossible to click the right one because the page jumps around while you click
<Burgwork> works for me
<Burgwork> oh how I wish I was going to Paris
<LaserJock> why?
<Burgwork> because it will be cool
<mdke> Burgwork: ah, it only happens when I have the Find box open
<Burgwork> ah, ancient version of epiphany here
<Burgwork> so no find bar
<mdke> (and I am clicking on something which is highlighted as the result of a search)
<LaserJock> yeah, I noticed the find + click was weird
<mdke> maybe it's an epiphany bug
<LaserJock> Burgwork: yeah, I should be cool. I'm starting to get nervous. It has been so painless to setup I keep thinking something's going to go wrong
<LaserJock> s/i?it/
<LaserJock> man I can't type
<Burgundavia> Seveas: got your msg. Sorry, I was removing the aptitude instructions. I have reworked to do both of our changes (different packages and removal of specific installation method)
<Burgundavia> anybody know who Warbo is?
<nixternal> have no clue Burgundavia
<Burgundavia> nixternal: whomever he is, he likes to write a great deal
<nixternal> however:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/OrinocoMonitorKismet2005Hoary    has been completed...and I think it needs a name change and have that hoary one redirect
<nixternal> where is he writing?
<nixternal> is it good?
<Burgundavia> just too wordy
<nixternal> ahhh
<jsgotangco> hey
<nixternal> proposed name change for that:  OrinocoWiFiKismet
<Burgundavia> what about under WifiDocs?
<nixternal> it can go there
<Burgundavia>  /OrinocoKismet
<nixternal> WifiDocs/OrinocoKismet
<nixternal> good deal
<nixternal> done...
<nixternal> redirect the old page i shall
<Burgundavia> can anybody confirm that https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MappingWindowsKey no longer seems to work?
<Burgundavia> this needs a better solution: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/PackageCDs
<nixternal> i will look into that..because i want to remap mine...as of right now it doesn't do anything
<Burgundavia> thanks
<Burgundavia> I am getting wierd results
<Burgundavia> nixternal: https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+source/control-center/+bug/12153
<Ubug2> Malone bug 12153 in control-center "Cannot use Windows key in keyboard shortcuts" [Unknown,Unconfirmed]  
<nixternal> roger that
<Burgundavia> now lets watch the artwork team try and organize a meeting!
<nixternal> haha
<Burgundavia> who needs soap operas when you have the artwork team?
<klepas> Burgundavia: i just contacted cvd about it :)
<klepas> Burgundavia: lollers
<klepas> a meeting should be happening within the next week or so
<nixternal> Burgundavia: that bug starts out with the fact the guy just upgraded TO Hoary...how can i confirm that one? breezy is the oldest here
<klepas> actually... you folks are invited too
<jsgotangco> cvd? will the sabdfl attend that?
<klepas> yes
<Burgundavia> nixternal: I just tested breezy
<jsgotangco> ah that's why
<klepas> he's going to 'chair' it
<nixternal> i can test dapper/kubuntu
<klepas> make sure things stay on track :)
<jsgotangco> too bad cvd isnt going to paris...heard she's 7 months on the way
<klepas> anyhow... you guys are quite welcome... would be nice to talk to some marvelous people from a working, organised team :)
<Burgundavia> jsgotangco: you serious?
<Burgundavia> jsgotangco: that is going to make Mark's life fun
<jsgotangco> Burgundavia: yes she told me about it a few weeks ago in a phone conversation
<Burgundavia> jsgotangco: you get to have phone conversations with them?
<jsgotangco> that's why clan is the one organising stuff at the moment
<Burgundavia> clan?
<jsgotangco> well not that frequent, only when there is a need
<jsgotangco> claire newman
<Burgundavia> ah, the other claire
<Burgundavia> is hard at Userful right now. There is a major rethink of how we do things and the victoria office just lost somebody
<rob> hmm, I think I might have picked up another error in the packaging guide..
* Burgundavia considers asking Canonical to hire him
<rob> If a Debian package has been changed in Ubuntu, it has ubuntuX (where X is the Ubuntu revision number) appended to the end of the Debian version. So if the Debian hello package was changed by Ubuntu, the version string would be 2.1.1-1ubuntu1. If a package for the application does not exist in Debian, then the Ubuntu version is 0 (e.g., 2.1.1-0ubuntu1).
<jsgotangco> send a resume it might work
<Burgundavia> jsgotangco: ya. I will play at one this weekend
<rob> shouldn't the 1 and 0 be the other way around on that last revision example?
<Burgundavia> rob: no
<Burgundavia> because if there is no debian version, we want debian -1 to overwrite any Ubuntu numbers
<rob> ok, that doesn't read very well then
<Burgundavia> no, it doesn't
<jsgotangco> oohh germany won
<rob> jsgotangco, yeah
<Burgundavia> nixternal: if you want my eternal love, can you go around and move all the docs about wireless to under wifi docs
<Burgundavia> and poland lost
<nixternal> sure can
* jsgotangco is waiting for group F
<Burgundavia> nixternal: make certain to check for redirects
<Burgundavia> nixternal: PageHits is good place to see if something is popular or not
<nixternal> Burgundavia: that window key map i don't believe will work with kde cuz the .xstartup is ignored
<nixternal> ok Burgundavia thax
<nixternal> thanks
<nixternal> ;)
* jsgotangco will have to stop nibbling sunflower seeds in front of his laptop
<Burgundavia> well, I have killed 3 pages from CatCleanup tonight. How many have you done?
<jsgotangco> klepas: surely you are aware that June 17-18 are the days people start coming over to paris with 18 in the evening having dinner
<klepas> oh, that does suck
<klepas> do you think Thursday/Friday then might be more applicable?
<Burgundavia> Laser_away: deal with https://wiki.ubuntu.com/PackageBuilding
<jsgotangco> yeah i think thats workable
<jsgotangco> Burgundavia: we have a wacom tablet at work, how it connects (serial/usb) not sure but i will check when i come back to office
<Burgundavia> jsgotangco: ok, thanks
<Burgundavia> jsgotangco: I posted something to artwork
<Burgundavia> kill? https://wiki.ubuntu.com/NvidiaManual
<jsgotangco> would be interesting to see how it works im gimp and krita
<klepas> has anyone had any luck with a lower-end wacom using Ubuntu and gimp?
<jsgotangco> i havent even tried it but i will next week
<Burgundavia> suggestions for a snack? I have a bad case of the munchies
<Laser_away> Burgundavia: is it ok to delete pages? how should I deal with stuff that should more or less go away
<Laser_away> with packaging stuff, I don't think we need anythin in CatDoc really
<Burgundavia> Laser_away: if it has no links, then yes, go ahead
<Burgundavia> WikiGuide lists the rules
<Laser_away> I hate wiping out other peoples work, but that page for instance has nothing of value on it
<Burgundavia> meh, I have no issue
<jsgotangco> oh crud i am still in my locale
* jsgotangco mind was wandering away when he was doing code samples
<LaserJock> Burgundavia: do you google the URL to find links?
<Burgundavia> LaserJock: yep, the whole url
<Burgundavia> then click teh 2nd link "find pages with this link"
<LaserJock> ah, ok
<LaserJock> thanks
<jsgotangco> speaking of google, have anyone tried spreadsheets
<Burgundavia> nope
<LaserJock> Burgundavia: done
<LaserJock> Burgundavia: do we really need a Howto (not very well done) for building KDE from CVS for 5.04?
<LaserJock> that was imported from the old wiki :-)
<Burgundavia> no, not really
<LaserJock> done
<Burgundavia> how big is a single layer dvd again?
<LaserJock> 4.3 GB perhaps?
<LaserJock> HowToBuildDebianPackagesFromScratch is going to be a bugger I think
<LaserJock> It's from Hoary and I've pretty much covered the content in the packaging guide
<LaserJock> Burgundavia: could I take CatDoc off a page that I plan on using for the PG and then deleting later?
<Burgundavia> LaserJock: yes
<Burgundavia> hey Madpilot
<Madpilot> hi
<LaserJock> hi Madpilot 
<Madpilot> gah... long f'ing day - 9-1 at job #1, 4-8 @ job #2... 
<LaserJock> yeah, that is long
<nixternal> <-- IDIOT
<Madpilot> nixternal, ??
<nixternal> lol...instead of just renaming a page to move it...i have been doing it the long way
<nixternal> copy, paste into a new page and so on
<nixternal> so what could have been a 10 minute job has been about an hour
<nixternal> ;)
<Madpilot> nixternal, the 'long way' is better in some cases, it leaves the old page behind to set a re-direct up on
<nixternal> well ya...oh wait...that is what we wanted to do
<nixternal> so im not an idiot ;)
<nixternal> im still an idiot for thinking like an idiot
<nixternal> back to work ;)
<jsgotangco> gee its so hot here lately
<Madpilot> lucky you
<jsgotangco> its 33C!
<Madpilot> the weather sucked here most of the day, it only started to clear & warm up around 5 or 6pm
<Burgundavia> better in oak bay
<Burgundavia> it was sunny at abot 3pm
<nixternal> TeamWiFi ??
<jsgotangco> lol
<nixternal> sounds like a serious wireless gang ;)
<Madpilot> we've got a WiFi Team?
<nixternal> not that i know of...but since you put it like that...is there even a network team ?
<nixternal> ;)
<nixternal> lets break down every possible thing with ubuntu
<nixternal> i will create a Kwallet team
<jsgotangco> what's the focus on that?
<jsgotangco> "people who use KWallet"
<jsgotangco> ?
<nixternal> your guess is as good as mine...but why not create it..seems like the "cool" thing to do :)
<jsgotangco> =)
<nixternal> this wiki will drink you to drive
<nixternal> or drink you to fly in some people's cases ;)
<Burgundavia> hmm, CatCleanup is really coming down
<nixternal> slowly but surely
<nixternal> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LaptopTestingTeam/AcerAspire5003WLCiWifi
<nixternal> ^^ transfer also?
<Madpilot> leave the LaptopTesting stuff where it is
<nixternal> then everything with the WifiDocs transfer is over
<nixternal> all WiFi stuff is now located under WifiDocs/
<dsas> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/GnomeComputerMenu kill ?
<Burgundavia> dsas: pop the trunk!
<nixternal> lol
<Burgundavia> night
<dsas> heh http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=pop+the+trunk 
<jsgotangco> ohh yeaahhh
<nixternal> haha
<nixternal> gahahah
<nixternal> dsas: stay away from 2 and 3 ;)
<dsas> 2 and 3 were the definitions I were familiar with :/
<nixternal> hahahah
<dsas> Do I need to get an ack on every CatCleanup page I delete? Or should I just bin them if it's obvious?
* dsas deletes GnomeComputerMenu
<Seveas> Burgwork, but keep in mind that apt-get build dep should not be changed. There is no package 'build-dep'...
<jsgotangco> apt-get build-dep packagename
<mdke> morning
<pygi> hey mdke 
<jsgotangco> morning
<pygi> hey jsgotangco 
* myriams is back.
* myriams is away: Away at the moment
<mdke> glatzor: what do you mean?
<mdke> (changing channel)
<glatzor> you seemed to be annoyed by some of my bug reports that only referred to minor issues.
<mdke> glatzor: did I?
<mdke> I don't think so
<glatzor> mdke: then it's all ok :)
<glatzor> mdke: I didn't know how helpful reports about minor issues are for you, since the documentation is frozen
<mdke> glatzor: once we've organised our ideas for dapper, we'll go through them.
<glatzor> mdke: I have translated and so reviewed further 200 strings and 250 still are missing. But I don't know if I find the time in the next weeks to fill the corresponding bugs.
<mdke> glatzor: no worries. You can file them whenever you like in the next 6 months or so. Or you can grab our trunk later and submits some patches to fix any more problems you see
<glatzor> mdke: I don't know if I have got the additional time to even provide patches.
<mdke> glatzor: ok, no worries
<glatzor> mdke: do you know how the translation of the ubuntu guides could be reused for the kubuntu guides?
<mdke> glatzor: rosetta shows you suggestions for strings that are already translated elsewhere
<glatzor> it is quite discouraging to see a lot of common strings that only differ by the package name and Ubuntu/Kubuntu
<glatzor> I don't use Rosetta, instead I translate them locally using gtranslator.
<mdke> you could use Rosetta, if you like. Or just upload a po for the Ubuntu guide to Kubuntu, it will merge strings that are the same
<glatzor> mdke: I will write an email to the translators list. perhaps somebody found a nice solution.
<mgalvin> hey guys
<mgalvin> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuWeeklyNewsletter/Issue2 is ready for a quick review if anyone has time
<mgalvin> gotta run out for a few min, be back in a hour or so
<mgalvin> (thanks in advance)
<mgalvin> trappist: ^^^
<LaserJock> can I get a wiki expert's opinion of wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuScienctists ?
<n1c0las> LaserJock: Although I am by no means a wiki expert I think it is an excellent overview
<LaserJock> mdke or Burgwork: should ^^ be in CatDoc?
<LaserJock> n1c0las: is it too long for one page do you think?
<n1c0las> With Image Processing Tools you might include ImageMagick (sp?)
<n1c0las> LaserJock:The navigation aid on the top right hand helps a lot in this large page
<LaserJock> yeah, I think I'd be totally lost with out the table of contents
<LaserJock> Corey!
<n1c0las> I don knwo if you did this on purpose but I also miss the tools to create tutorials or courses such as Moodle
<LaserJock> hmm
<LaserJock> I think it more targeted towards research but that is a good point
<n1c0las> In a scientific environment there is much need for this type of courseware
<n1c0las> LaserJock: you're welcome
<n1c0las> I can see what your point is too, for this page
<LaserJock> if we were to break it up into sub pages
<n1c0las> Maybe you could break it up and use Categories to pull it all together
<Burgundavia> hey LaserJock
<LaserJock> I was just looking for you Burgundavia 
<Burgundavia> LaserJock: and you have found me
<LaserJock> I'm looking at wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuScientists
<LaserJock> and I wondered if it should be in CatDoc
<Burgundavia> and now I am too
<n1c0las> LaserJock: the british linux magazine LinuxFormat has a review of several Astronomy packages on Linux. It is in the March 2006 issue.
<LaserJock> hmm
<Burgundavia> LaserJock: it should be renamed to ScientificApps and renamed, yes
<LaserJock> Burgundavia: added to CatDoc?
<Burgundavia> LaserJock: yep
<LaserJock> do you think it is too long?
<Burgundavia> not really
<LaserJock> ok
<LaserJock> I haven't really worked on it much
<LaserJock> but there was a bunch of work done on it yestreday
<LaserJock> I'm really pretty impressed with it
<n1c0las> LaserJock: it looks quite extensive
* myriams_away is back.
<apokryphos> http://www.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/licensing -> "The Ubuntu team is committed to Free and Open Source Software. The exact details of what that means can lead people into a very long debate indeed, often ending up with both sides in violent agreement."
<LaserJock> hi apokryphos ;-)
<apokryphos> typo? Violent disagreement? 
<apokryphos> hello =)
<LaserJock> lol
<LaserJock> I think that might be a typo
<Burgundavia> no, I don't think it is
<apokryphos> hardly a common expression, but furthermore doesn't seem quite right from the context
<Burgundavia> yes it does
<apokryphos> "you can have very long debates that end you up very firmly agreeing"
<Burgundavia> no, that is wrong
<Burgundavia> long debates often lead to disagreement
<apokryphos> exactly
<Burgundavia> the current wording is good English
<Burgundavia> and conveys the meaning
<apokryphos> I never argued the inaccuracy of the English
<LaserJock> violent and agreement seem a little oxymoronic
<apokryphos> I argued that the writer there probably doesn't mean to say "violent agreement"
<apokryphos> Burgundavia: are you sure you know what it says above?
<Burgundavia> oh, wait, hmm
<crimsun_> it should be violent disagreement.
<apokryphos> =)
<crimsun_> violent agreement has a different but not opposing connotation
<Burgundavia> you are right, I misread that
<Burgundavia> I will fix it
<Burgundavia> my mind put in disagreement
<apokryphos> same with the author of the article, I'm sure 8)
<Burgundavia> fixed
<crimsun_> LaserJock: they're not. Heated debates can be civil and can "conclude" with all parties concurring.
<LaserJock> but violent? that implies non-civil to me
<Burgundavia> yes, it can get very non-civil
<crimsun_> violent doesn't imply non-civil
<Burgundavia> have you ever seen debian debate a license?
<LaserJock> yeah, a little bit
<apokryphos> depends on context; I wouldn't say it was necessary in the case of debate
<Burgundavia> random stupid link --> http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/5067912.stm
<crimsun_> martial arts tournaments are violent and civil.
<LaserJock> yeah
<Burgundavia> yes, but license and freenes debates can quickly sink to non-civil
<LaserJock> Burgundavia: lol @ pic
<LaserJock> Burgundavia: I do think the "Ubuntu is an entirely open source operating system built around the Linux kernel."
<Burgundavia> and?
<LaserJock> statment is perhaps not accurate
<Burgundavia> I don't want to make huge changes to such pages without confirmation
<LaserJock> well that is the desktop guide so there really isn't anythin we can do about that right now
<LaserJock> but that was the only point that I found very valid
<LaserJock> the "All of the application
<LaserJock> software installed by default is Free Software." one clearly doesn't include the next sentence
<Burgundavia> I have got myself in a nice pickle. I have lost my visa card and my laptop power supply. I am leaving for a trip on Tues and need the power supply. But I can't buy a new one because I have no visa card :(
<LaserJock> yikes
<Burgundavia> last time I used it was the 11th of may
<Burgundavia> so it has not been used for fraud, but still
<LaserJock> hmm, I wish I could get MLs as RSS feeds
<crimsun_> which MLs?
<crimsun_> LaserJock: allow me to {re,}introduce you to gmane. http://gmane.org/rss.php
<LaserJock> oh, like debian MLs
<LaserJock> man, gmane rocks my socks off!
<mpt> LaserJock, why just mailing lists? Why not all e-mail? :-)
<LaserJock> well, I just want to be able to skim through Debian MLs without having to subscribe
<LaserJock> yes, the one I was looking for tetex-maintainers
<LaserJock> now, I feel like an idiot that I haven't used this before
<LaserJock> crimsun_: thanks dude, I don't know what I would do without you sometimes. Probably be in the technological stone age :-)
<crimsun_> LaserJock: the intarweb is a big place. I don't know the half of it.
<LaserJock> hi manicka 
<manicka> hi
<LaserJock> hmm, epiphany is bugging me now
#ubuntu-doc 2006-06-11
<mdke> evening
<mdke> LaserJock: lots like a cat doc to me
<mpt> mdke, a veterinarian? :-)
<mdke> mpt: :)
<mpt> mdke, when is the Great Wiki Switchover?
<mdke> mpt: when Karl gets round to it :/
<mpt> oh, so it will be done by script?
<mdke> mpt: yes, spiv has done a script
<mdke> all is in readiness
<mpt> ok
<mdke> he just has to find the time
<LaserJock> ok, in epiphany, when I start typing a url it gives me a list
<crimsun_> is LP reachable for anyone?
<LaserJock> but if I click on one it goes to that URL rather then just putting it in the Location bar
<mdke> LaserJock: yes, annoying 
<mpt> crimsun_, yes, but you're the second person today to claim that it isn't
<LaserJock> crimsun_: yes
<mpt> crimsun_, where are you?
<mpt> (geographically)
<mdke> crimsun_: it has been very slow for me today, perhaps some of the servers aren't working
<LaserJock> mdke: is there a way around that? it is quite annoying for me
<mdke> it takes a minute or so to respond
<mdke> LaserJock: not that I know of...
<LaserJock> hmm, that is enough for me to ditch it for now, to bad, I was starting to really like it :/
<mdke> maybe there is a way, I haven't investigated
<mdke> mpt will know
<crimsun_> mpt: east coast USA. It was a local routing issue.
<LaserJock> crimsun_: hehe, I've got the d-d gmane feed now :-)
* mdke pats gmane
<Burgundavia> mdke: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/GraphicsApplications?action=diff <-- interesting navigate icon. I think I like it
<mpt> I'd prefer an arrow
<mpt> as in "Here be the instructions"
<Burgundavia> but arrows don't convey that you need the menu
<mdke> wtf is it?
<mpt> heh
<mdke> well, it's a menu
<mdke> but it's not obvious that it is
<mdke> it looks like a street sign
<mpt> It's a restaurant order!
<mpt> It's very well drawn and shaded and colored and everything
<mpt> just not that useful :-/
<mpt> It would be better as an icon for "Menu bar" in glade or gazpacho
<Burgundavia> I think that is what it is from
<Burgundavia> mdke: we need to do something about this welcome centre idea
<mdke> Burgundavia: I chatted to Simon yesterday about it
<Burgundavia> sweet
<Burgundavia> what was the outcome?
<mdke> no real outcome, he is going to catch up with the student a bit more, so far they haven't been in touch much
<Burgundavia> ok, good
<Burgundavia> because the wiki and forums are exploding with ideas (mostly useless)
<mdke> yes, I noticed that people had been muscling in on it
<mdke> is that with the approval of the student, or are they just being pushy?
<Burgundavia> no idea
<Burgundavia> the "welcome centre" idea seems to come up about once a release
<mdke> it's the sort of project that will get people excited
<Burgundavia> looky! everybody will see my words!
<mdke> yes.
<Burgundavia> http://www.ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=192695&highlight=centre
<mdke> well Simon understood that the words should probably be in the docteam's domain
* Burgundavia polishes his cutting knife
<Burgundavia> just a sec, hanging up laundry
* mdke posts
<Burgundavia> back
<Burgundavia> LaserJock: thoughts? https://wiki.ubuntu.com/WelcomeToPython
<Burgundavia> mdke: should I kill this? https://wiki.ubuntu.com/forum/software/OpenSource/MakeMoneyHowto?highlight=%28CategoryCleanup%29
<mdke> Burgundavia: I don't know, someone has obviously spent some time on it. But it's not very helpful at the moment
<Burgundavia> rofl "The goodness of software is in how well it serves people. Not in anything
<Burgundavia> else. It's not some kind of masturbatory exercise for its own sake."
<Burgundavia> Linus to Mike Hearn on desktop-architects
<Burgundavia> ahh, written by azz
<LaserJock> Burgundavia: well, I'm working on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuScriptingDoc
<LaserJock> Burgundavia: that Python page would be better as a set of links to Python resources and a perhaps a description of what python packages are installed by default
<Burgundavia> LaserJock: cool
<nixternal> whats up ya'll
<nixternal> went to lowes, home depot, and menards today...going to do some rewiring of the house to add some extra outlets, and run audio/video to every room now...i didn't want to leave...i would go down an aisle and a new project would come to mind
<nixternal> them places are evil
<Burgundavia> yes, they are
<nixternal> it should have only cost me $200 max for everything i needed...lets just say i didn't even come close to that
<LaserJock> Burgundavia: cool, WRT my spec?
<LaserJock> or that Python page
<Burgundavia> LaserJock: both
<LaserJock> Burgundavia: I could use some feedback on the spec, it is obviously not complete
<LaserJock> i.e. help me if you want ;-)
<Burgundavia> sure, I will take a peek
<jsgotangco> good morning
<LaserJock> hi jsgotangco 
<Burgundavia> hey jsgotangco
<jsgotangco> so what's the difference between flashplugin-nonfree and getting the tgz from adobe itself?
<Burgundavia> nothing
<Burgundavia> except the .deb downloads the tar.gz
<jsgotangco> doh
<LaserJock> and does debconf magic
<nixternal> http://paste.ubuntu-nl.org/15502
<nixternal> nice
<LaserJock> heh
<Burgundavia> so now you are going to pirate that music. What a terribly smart move
<linuxmonkey> lol
<nixternal> can't even watch mtv...i will never ever watch mtv again..i shall boycott them
<nixternal> i used to be able to watch videos and what not there...just a few weeks ago as a matter of fact
<linuxmonkey> lmao
<nixternal> they had some decent concerts from back in the day on overdrive
<nixternal> i can't even access the page
<rob> http://www.linuxtopia.org/online_books/system_administration_books/ubuntu_starter_guide/index.html
<rob> intresting how it made it there
<Burgundavia> rob: cool
<jsgotangco> well the licenses allow so
<Burgundavia> and they do include the licenses
<rob> yep
<jsgotangco> and that's a good thing (tm)
<crimsun_> coverage++
<Burgundavia> interesting looking at google analytics
<rob> thats the breezy version though..
<Burgundavia> we are an order of magnitude higher than any other distro, which bears out data from distrowatch
<rob> yeah that google thing is pretty neat, shame it doesn't actually give numbers though
<Madpilot> hi all
<Wesselaar> goodmorning
<Madpilot> one minute away from being morning here :)
<Wesselaar> its 9 am here
<Madpilot> OK, it's now morning here
<Wesselaar> congratulations :-)
<Plug> meh.  I'm at 7pm tomorrow already :)
<joachim-n> morning
<nixternal`zzz> g'nite
<Kaiser_Away> now the wiki has become open content does that mean peoples personal page/s are open as well?
<robotgeek> Kaiser_Away: i dont think we are moving personal pages
<Kaiser_Away> robotgeek, so those will be... under <current licence>?
<robotgeek> Kaiser_Away: not sure
<Kaiser_Away> robotgeek, nmn. ok thanks.
<mdke> Kaiser_Away: yep, in theory. But the wiki hasn't become open content yet
<Kaiser_Away> mdke, really? i thought it just happened recently. my bad :/
<jsgotangco> hi
<Kaiser_Away> hi jsgotangco 
<matthewrevell> chown --recursive www-data:www-data ./conf
<matthewrevell> chown --recursive www-data:www-data ./extensions
<matthewrevell> chown --recursive www-data:www-data ./languages
<matthewrevell> chown --recursive www-data:www-data ./themes
<matthewrevell> bollocks, wrong window
<matthewrevell> sorry
<mgalvin> hi all
<nixternal> hey mgalvin
<mgalvin> man there is so much random stuff on -users
<nixternal> it seems to grow too
<mgalvin> yea the amount of traffic has gone up so much the past few weeks
<matthewrevell> howdy
<mgalvin> matthewrevell: hey!
<mgalvin> mdke: are there any Italian translations floating around for the UWN issues, it would be nice to link to them if there are
<mdke> mgalvin: not sure if they are done yet.
<mgalvin> ok
#ubuntu-doc 2007-06-04
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<Admiral_Chicago> .win 18
<Admiral_Chicago> looking
<Admiral_Chicago> oops wrong windo
<Admiral_Chicago> its jjesse :)
#ubuntu-doc 2007-06-05
* #ubuntu-doc  [freenode-info]  if you need to send private messages, please register: http://freenode.net/faq.shtml#privmsg
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<nixternal> hiya mdke
<mdke> morning
<Madpilot> morning
<mdke> how's it going?
<Madpilot> nixternal, why exactly does the bot claim you're a Vista-lover? Got to be a good story there...
<nixternal> ask hobbsee and crimsun
<Madpilot> heh. Why did I figure Hobbsee would be involved somehow?
<nixternal> she would be the one guilty of adding it, and crimsun would be the one guilty of starting it
<ubotu> New bug: #118741 in ubuntu-docs (main) "External links in stable docs should be under Ubuntu control" [Undecided,Unconfirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/118741
<mdke> hmm. *Click*
<Madpilot> good point in that bug report, actually
<mdke> isn't it just his point about updates to documentation, dressed up?
<mdke> and the second bug he cites is marked as fixed :)
<mdke> or maybe it's just one of those ideas that sounds a bit odd when you hear it but might work. I wonder how difficult it would be to implement
<dasoriginal> hello to everybody
<dasoriginal> :-P
<dasoriginal> is there nobody who wants to talk with an ubuntureo?
<dasoriginal> because i wanna join the documentation group, making the funny screenshots to show newbies who ubuntu works!
<dasoriginal> okay i don't know why nobody talks to me ...... is it forbidden to post in this chat? 8-)
<willvdl> no it's just almost midnight :)
<nixternal> no it isn't...4pm here :p
<nixternal> howdy dasoriginal!
<nixternal> I would call our screenshots funny, because we might take offense to that ;p
<nixternal> err
<nixternal> s/would/wouldn't
<dasoriginal> oh i don't think about user users local time
<dasoriginal> other user local time i mean
<dasoriginal> are there meetings here in next future?
<nixternal> not scheduled at this time..but I am sure once we hit a couple of tribe releases we will
<nixternal> hiya jono
<jono> hey
<nixternal> how goes the busy man?
<dasoriginal> so what should i do, by the way hi jono
<jono> hey
<jono> very busy :)
<jono> over busy right now tbh
<nixternal> dasoriginal: take a look at wiki pages, make changes and fixes as you see fit for beginners
<dasoriginal> okay thats all? ;)
<nixternal> then you can download a copy of the doc repos and start by editing some DocBook/XML and creating patches and sending them to the doc team list
<nixternal> I see you had a great time at LinuxTag there jono
<jono> nixternal: yeah, was a  blast :)
<jono> amazing show :)
<nixternal> good deal...maybe one of these days, after school is over...I can make the trek to a show or 2, or 3, or 4 :)
<jono> hehe
<jono> just booked into another two this year
<nixternal> ya, that much travel would either drive me mad, or cause me to never do any work
<dasoriginal> jono: i've seen your show at LinuxTag and now here i am! :D
<jono> dasoriginal: awesome :)
<jono> dasoriginal: you came here because of the talk?
<willvdl> jono, you're a legend!
<dasoriginal> yes
<dasoriginal> i did it
<willvdl> we shall follow you everywhere! :)
<jono> wow cool
<jono> willvdl: heh
<willvdl> in fact, we're watching you... right...now
<j1mc> that is kind of spooky, willvdl
<dasoriginal> jono: i really enjoy the whole day at LinuxTag, but after that i want to join the community
<willvdl> oh, wrong channel.
<willvdl> Jono did you join the .de stand or did you have your own?
<jono> dasoriginal: wow, cool, my boss needs to know about this :P
<jono> willvdl: we had one funded by canonical
<dasoriginal> of course tell your boss about it. :-Dis the first time that i visit a irc channel
<willvdl> one things for sure, you must go to the eLA thing next year (in Ghana)
<nixternal> jono: hurding cats or your new expanding ubuntu talk? need some source for BarCamp Chicago for a talk :)
<jono> nixternal: this is my new talk, Growing Ubuntu
<jono> willvdl: I should go?
<nixternal> jono: do you have the presentation posted somewhere?
<willvdl> it's a blast
<jono> nixternal: naa, the slides are pointless without the talk
<jono> nixternal: you can see the herding cats vid on youtube
<nixternal> well then, get to chicago in the next 2 weeks and talk ;p
<jono> willvdl: what kind of conf?
<jono> nixternal: haha
<jono> nixternal: hopefully I can get over there sometime
<willvdl> elearning, vocational training, education
<nixternal> we will all pitch in 1 beer...that should be enough to have to toasted for the year
<nixternal> or pissed for the year :)
<nixternal> speaking of education willvdl, I am currently working on a "Intro to Linux (distros)" for our local university
<willvdl> really? cool. what kind of info you putting in?
<nixternal> we are going to take the top 3 and run the students through an 8 week course teaching them how Linux is a viable replacement for Windows
<nixternal> first week will cover installs (6 to 8 hours). and go on from there
<nixternal> Ubuntu, openSUSE, and Fedora look to be the big 3 we go over
<willvdl> that's a really good idea
<nixternal> it was a pita, and one board removal to get someone to go "OK lets see this"
<willvdl> you making courseware?
<nixternal> we will start the coursware once the outline is complete and approved
<willvdl> ^^ is the most crupting thing I've heard all day :)
<willvdl> cryptic rather
<nixternal> and...it will be GPLd (version 3)
<dasoriginal> okay i leave .... bye to everybody
<nixternal> bye dasoriginal, have a good one
<willvdl> dasoriginal, ciao and welcome
<nixternal> willvdl: they booted me from a board meeting because I got upset with their definition of "teaching students creativity"
<willvdl> how upset? :)
<nixternal> I told them they are blocking their creativity by forcing them to use proprietary applications at school, in which they can't afford for home
<nixternal> and provided them with viable solutions..and then they did the "well we can't support it"
<willvdl> sigh
<nixternal> i.e. the linux distros...so I snapped and said you teach students year round how to do support, why can't they do it
<willvdl> a common theme
<nixternal> reason for booting is I called the board a collection of idiots with a common goal, money in their pockets
<willvdl> I believe the term is a "thicket of idiots"
<nixternal> so I posted flyers in the school...at that point they said I might be on to something
<nixternal> thicket would have gone over these idiots heads though :D
<j1mc> flyers in the school about what?  about linux, or about the board being dumb?
<willvdl> I was a t a conf recently
<willvdl> where there was an OSS and OER track
<nixternal> linux and how the board was tampering with their creativity and educational rights
<willvdl> the MC got ahead of himself and decided to leave a closing remark
<nixternal> *drum roll*
<willvdl> saying,"well I wouldn't put linux in my aeroplane"
<nixternal> d'oh
<willvdl> I almost wanted to tell him about Mir
<nixternal> hehe
<nixternal> United Airlines uses nothing but a UNIX based system for their aircraft with the help of Unisys
<willvdl> but should rather have bitched slapped him for stepping ove rhis professional bounds of leading a panel debate
<nixternal> and their entire infrastructure is now Linux I believe..it used to be SCO when I worked there on a contract for Y2K
<nixternal> I think MadPilot would know best on the type of embedded systems they use though
<willvdl> the aircontrol systems here are linux based
<nixternal> O'Hare uses Sun Microsystems for everything
<nixternal> all of their dummy terminals connect to an Enterprise 10k, well they did about 5+ years ago
<nixternal> man, I love these Geico insurance commercials with the cavemen...I laugh everytime
<willvdl> I love the outpost.com one with the hamster
<willvdl> and them wanting to tattoo the children's foreheads
<nixternal> hahaha yes
<nixternal> outpost.com has some great commercials...I think I see them on the BBC the most..that and G4 media
<willvdl> gotto nip out. I'm curious about your course though. specifically the fact that you want to include 3 distros
<willvdl> bbl
<nixternal> later, gotta get ready for school myself
#ubuntu-doc 2007-06-06
<Admiral_Chicago> can someone help me add a picture attachment at this page https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/GutsyGibbon/Tribe1
<Admiral_Chicago> i've attached the image, just not sure how to call it within the document.
<nixternal> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/GutsyGibbon/Tribe1/Kubuntu
<nixternal> see how I did it
<nixternal> attachment:name.png
<nixternal> if you want it looking secksy, do it the way I do with the thumbnails
<nixternal> otherwise you get a bunch of of big images, and some people don't know how to correctly shadow, so they put up a bad looking page
<Admiral_Chicago> nixternal: looking now
<nixternal> would be nice if I could easily float images in moinmoin and the == foo is bar == headers would automatically do breaks
<nixternal> err, clear: both
<beuno> Admiral_Chicago: it seems you haven't uploaded a correct image type
<Admiral_Chicago> i used jpg and png, it didn't like either beuno
<Admiral_Chicago> nixternal: what kind of image should i upload?
<nixternal> png is what I do, however jpg is fine, no gifs
<Admiral_Chicago> nixternal: you alos linked me to a 404...
<beuno> Admiral_Chicago: look now
<beuno> you have to give it an extension  :D
<Admiral_Chicago> beuno: thanks
<beuno> Admiral_Chicago: at your service
<beuno> I'm going to bed now though  :p
<beuno> have fun!
<nixternal> I did
<nixternal> haha I did
<nixternal> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/blah
<nixternal> k..one sec
<nixternal> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/GutsyGibbon/Tribe1/Kubuntu
<nixternal> must have done /ubh instead of /ubw
<Admiral_Chicago> nixternal: looking...
<nixternal> beuno: just so you know, I envy you
<beuno> nixternal: don't, think of all the beers you'll be able to drink here next year with our exchange rate   ;)
<beuno> I'll take you to the best bars!
<nixternal> very true...oh, and I staying at your house...so have some brewhahas ready :)
<nixternal> man I can't type tonight
<beuno> sure thing, "open ubuntu house"
<beuno> well, you might be DD by then   :p
<nixternal> I can only wish
<beuno> I'm checking out hotels and conference rooms as soon as I get back from my trip, seems the same amount of money used in europe can take us a ling way here   :D
<beuno> (think free beer every night)
<nixternal> haha
<nixternal> free as in free beer, I am down
<nixternal> to bad I don't drink, but in Argentina, I just might have to
<beuno> make sure you get all those parking tickets payed   :p
<nixternal> haha, ya working on that now
<beuno> you probably will end up drinking if you hang around me, yes   {
<beuno> aaaaaaaaaanyway, really bed time now, haven't even packed my bag and I'm leaving in a bit over 12 hours
<beuno> g'night
<nixternal> alrighty, g'nite
<nixternal> have fun and catch you when you get there and online
<Admiral_Chicago> eh?
<Admiral_Chicago> you visiting argentina without me nixternal ?
<nixternal> debconf 2008
<Admiral_Chicago> oh crap when is that?
<Admiral_Chicago> ah august, couldn't go if i wanted
<Admiral_Chicago> nixternal: i apparently don't have your skills with wiki editing, can you look at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/GutsyGibbon/Tribe1 and please fix the images
<nixternal> Admiral_Chicago: stop what you are doing on that page please
<nixternal> don't add anymore
<nixternal> Admiral_Chicago: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/GutsyGibbon/Tribe1/Xubuntu
<nixternal> I moved the page to the correct location
<nixternal> Admiral_Chicago: images should be 1024x768 as well
<mdke> morning all
<nixternal> use pngs, that way there you can do drop shadows to make the thumbnails stand out
<nixternal> good morning mdke
<Admiral_Chicago> nixternal: i couldn't get the size to be 1024*768 due to the VM...
<nixternal> interesting
<nixternal> Admiral_Chicago: that is fine then...if you want..give me all of the images you have and I will doctor them up until I can get a nice screenshot howto done up
<Admiral_Chicago> That is something I could try again tomorrow. I have a few pns lying around, I just dont want to break my system again
<nixternal> hehe
<nixternal> I think the screenshot size you have anyways scales to 1024x768 anyways, just a few pixels off
<nixternal> looks good btw
<Admiral_Chicago> yea it was close to it. i run a few sizes about 1024x768 anyways.
<Admiral_Chicago> thanks, i have much more locally, just wanted to get some things on there
<mdke> jjesse: you've slightly misunderstood the question on the mailing list. He's not necessarily looking for PDF - what he is complaining about is that our docs are not comprehensive enough
<nixternal> maybe tomorrow/err today I can find a little time and do a good screenshot wiki page for us
<mdke> he's looking for any format that he can download
<Admiral_Chicago> thats something i'd like to read. it would cover VMs too?
<nixternal> mdke: any plans for a future meeting to discuss necessary changes?
<mdke> nixternal: we could have one, definitely
<nixternal> Admiral_Chicago: I am sure it would cover some VMs
<mdke> nixternal: do you want to arrange it?
<nixternal> mdke: I can do that...let me add it for the todo when I wake up
<mdke> thanks
<nixternal> get everyone to toss in a time that works for them
<Admiral_Chicago> sounds good.
<nixternal> alrighty, I am going to take it to bed now...see everyone in a few hours
<nixternal> g'nite
<mdke> night
<Admiral_Chicago> night
<BugMaN> hi all
<BugMaN> somebody colud confirm this bug : https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu-doc/+bug/97355
<ubotu> Launchpad bug 97355 in ubuntu-doc "Packaging Guide command error" [Undecided,Unconfirmed] 
<JanC> hm, this documentation is wrong: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/HowToEnableSpamFilteringInEvolution
<Admiral_Chicago> JanC: feel free to correct it
<JanC> Admiral_Chicago: I'm working on it, but I'm not sure about the spamassassin part
<JanC> I do know that bogofilter works fine though (contrary to what that page says)
<Admiral_Chicago> i haven't used evolution or spamassassin...
<JanC> the main problem is that spam filtering doesn't work if more than 1 spam filter plugin is enabled
<JanC> I guess both plugins try to go through the same door at the same time and knock their heads together, resulting in a double K.O.   ;-)
<JanC> hm, I wonder if bogofilter itself is installed by default...
<nixternal> haha, nice analogy
<nixternal> I have bogofilter and spamassassin running with KMail
<nixternal> and they both don't do a great job, they do an OK job, but not great
<JanC> both ?
<JanC> bogofilter works fine here
<JanC> not perfect, but that's impossible
<JanC> and for the mail account that I use for mailing lists, it actually works almost 100% perfect
<JanC> at least > 99.9%  :)
<nixternal> wow
<nixternal> maybe I should remove spamassassin and let bogofilter work on its own
<JanC> on other accounts it's less succesful
<JanC> might depend on how much ham & spam you get
<JanC> e.g. for the mailing list account, I get almost no spam compared to the flood of good messages
<nixternal> actually...I don't get much now to my inbox...google seems to be doing a good job now all of a sudden
<nixternal> at times to good, and they mark some of my kde and ubuntu mail as spam..especially bug reports
<JanC> that's not so good...
<nixternal> ya, I have to go in and check my filters there every now and then and make "not spam"
<JanC> hm, lets see if I can find out if bogofilter is on the ubuntu install CD
<JanC> seems not
<JanC> Status van het verzenden van kennisgevingen:
<JanC> [en]  nixternal: E-mail correct verzonden
<JanC> :)
<alefteris> can anyone suggest a video editor for prossesing screencasts?
<nixternal> kino is the only one I know...I wonder if popey is online
<alefteris> kino work with ogg and mpeg or only dv?
<nixternal> truthfully I don't know
<nixternal> popey is online, just afk right now
<nixternal> he is the screencast master iirc
<alefteris> aha :) ok i'll ping him later. thanks
<popey> someone was after some screencasting info?
<JanC> popey: alefteris
<popey> alefteris: hello
<alefteris> hi, i was just looking for a video editor that I can use to produse some screencasts
<popey> i generally do very little editing, but what I do, I use avidemux for
<nixternal> heh
<nixternal> there he is now
<popey> what did you record the video with?
<alefteris> when the video is in ogg format and i need to insert some still images in it
<popey> ahhh
<alefteris> s/when/well
<popey> if you want to edit in avidemux you'd need to convert to some other format
<popey> i dont think avidemux will edit oggs (yet)
<popey> ffmpeg -i foo.ogg foo.avi
<alefteris> ok
<alefteris> ok i found and this: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ScreenCasts/ very helpfull :)
<popey> heh, i wrote that
<popey> there are some more pages under https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ScreenCastTeam/
<alefteris> ok chears mate
<popey> np
<popey> if you can't see me about on irc feel free to email me alan at my irc nickname dot com
<bdmurray> nixternal: ping
<nixternal> hiya bdmurray
<bdmurray> I was looking at bug you were confirming with a Gutsy daily build and was curious about it.
<bdmurray> It is bug 118863 regarding desktop icons
<ubotu> Launchpad bug 118863 in kdebase "[Gutsy]  extra icons on desktop in kubuntu daily 20070605" [Low,Confirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/118863
<nixternal> bdmurray: we have fixed that or are in the process of fixing that
<bdmurray> okay, I won't milestone it then
<nixternal> ya, as soon as main unfreezes the fix will be released
<bdmurray> okay, I'll move on then
<nixternal> hehe
<bdmurray> plenty more bugs to look at. ;)
<nixternal> it was done to go hand-in-hand with the iso tests
<nixternal> documentation purposes really..but yes it has been taken care of
<nixternal> go fill my inbox with all of your fixes :D
#ubuntu-doc 2007-06-07
<kitche> have any of you thought about using fmask or dmask in the docs instead of umask?
<crimsun> more context?
<kitche> with ntfs and vfat, all files will have the executable bit set because those filesystems don't understand the concept.  The dmask allows you to keep the +x on directories, and fmask to remove it from files.
<nixternal> kitche: is it possible for you to do a write up on the wiki to help explain further? hopefully we can get it tested and possibly use it for documentation purpuses..that kind of information may be usefull to some users
<crimsun> fmask and dmask aren't documented in mount(8) for NTFS.
<nixternal> crimsun: I have read some ntfs howtos that document what he is talking about I believe
<nixternal> I am not 100% sure because, opposite of what you and hobbsee believe, I don't have NTFS to test :)
<kitche> I think umask needs to be used for mount but it's more for fstab I believe
<crimsun> mount(8) options are the ones used in fstab(5)
<kitche> hmm fmask and dmask does seem like fat only but it seems to work for ntfs also
<Tom47> not sure if this is the right place but to at least one degree https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Installation/FromWindows needs a change to reflect feisty
<crimsun> you may log in using your LP credentials and change it.
<Tom47> crimsun not certain i would be willing to back my jusdgment
<crimsun> then modify it, and ping me to check when you've finished
<Tom47> crimsun have made the change i noticed .... upon reflection it prob also needs an update to reflect vista (ie beyond XP) but i don't have vista (nor a live XP for that matter)
<crimsun> I have access to Vista and can check.
<Tom47> ok ty ... well thats a first for me .... always good to do something new
<kitche> I m use to writing documention lol used to write it all the time when I worked on Source Mage
<Tom47> its many years since i documented systems .... anyoe remember COBOL ;-)
<crimsun> looks fine to me.
<Tom47> ty
<JanC> Tom47: I learned COBOL at school, writing programs on paper with little squares & some fatter lines to mark the important collumns...
<JanC> but that's about it  :)
<Tom47> ah the joy of sunbmitting it to the keypuch area for cards
<Tom47> gives me the horrors thinking abt it
<JanC> there were no punch cards anymore in my time at school (early 1990s)
<Tom47> it was 1969 for me sad to say
<JanC> but we got the horror stories from teachers who accidentally droped a stack of unnumbered punchcards  ;)
<JanC> 1969 actually sounds like a great time for learning CS :)
<JanC> you know, back when some people still understood everything about computers  :)
<crimsun> back when there were serious operating systems problems to resolve
<Tom47> its an addiction
<crimsun> I can only imagine the excitement surrounding semaphores, monitors, etc. - things we take for granted today
<JanC> like, "we have 2050 bytes of code and only 2048 bytes of memory"?  ;)
<Tom47> Granite Rockx - tm Stoneage clinkernet start-up
<JanC> well, some people still question the usefulness of things like semaphores
<crimsun> heh, my mentor at IBM (Brian Clark, who's a Fellow) told me lots of neat stories about their systems fixes :)
<crimsun> JanC: sure, but to date no one has devised as nice a solution.
<JanC> many people just (try to) avoid the problem
<Tom47> Sema4 - tm new-wave communications technologies
<crimsun> yeah, a lot of programmers fall back to single-threaded solutions
<Tom47> heheheh
<JanC> or at least "limited threaded" solutions
<Tom47> Sema4 have flagged an upcoming micro-warp release
<somerville32> Hiya
<bdmurray> should bug 86058 be opened or fix released?
<ubotu> Launchpad bug 86058 in xubuntu-docs "Minor spelling correction - "Add Applications -> Synaptic"" [Undecided,Fix committed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/86058
#ubuntu-doc 2007-06-08
<Admiral_Chicago> looking...
<Admiral_Chicago> bdmurray: actually, Jim and I (one of the bug traigers) are meeting up today, we could discuss it
<Admiral_Chicago> bdmurray: we are actually rewritting the documentation so...we will look at it
<bdmurray> Admiral_Chicago: okay, I was it was Fix Committed but then had some comments in it
<bdmurray> wow, that was even dyslexia
<bdmurray> s/was/saw/
* bdmurray throws keyboard away
<Admiral_Chicago> bdmurray: hehe, well we will ook at it today.
<bdmurray> either is contagious or you are making fun of me . . .
<Admiral_Chicago> its contagious
<nixternal> bdmurray: don't toss that keyboard, you need it for tonight...you should have about a 1000 more bugs on your list :)
<bdmurray> nixternal: eh, it's mostly scripted.
<nixternal> cheater!
<nixternal> ;p
<bdmurray> Actually I'm too scared to do lots automatically.  So it takes some button pressing.
<bdmurray> But that's what the kids are for. :)
<nixternal> haha
<ryanakca> would a "unnatended remote rdiff backup HOWTO" be useful? (based on http://pkeck.myweb.uga.edu/ssh/ , http://troy.jdmz.net/rsync/index.html and http://arctic.org/~dean/rdiff-backup/unattended.html )
<ryanakca> would a "unnatended remote rdiff backup HOWTO" be useful? (based on http://pkeck.myweb.uga.edu/ssh/ , http://troy.jdmz.net/rsync/index.html and http://arctic.org/~dean/rdiff-backup/unattended.html )
<ryanakca> nixternal: would a "unnatended remote rdiff backup HOWTO" be useful? (based on http://pkeck.myweb.uga.edu/ssh/ , http://troy.jdmz.net/rsync/index.html and http://arctic.org/~dean/rdiff-backup/unattended.html )
<nixternal> I have no idea :) seriously though, all HOWTOs are helpful
<ryanakca> ox
<ryanakca> ok
* ryanakca pokes his Dvorak keyboard
#ubuntu-doc 2007-06-09
<LaSpec> Are there laptop-model-specific-wiki pages?
<Admiral_Chicago> afaik no. unless you are looking at laptop testing...
<Admiral_Chicago> there are some for the laptop testing team...
<LaSpec> laptop testing?
<LaSpec> I wanna write a wiki doc on a fix for Gateway Solo 1450's resolution problem, but it's a very specific fix for that model
<LaSpec> where should I write that?
<nixternal> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LaptopTestingTeam
<Eric_Jardas> Hello
<Eric_Jardas> I have a question...
<Eric_Jardas> I created a HOWTO in the forum and it isn't there ? Is it waiting for approval or ?
<jjesse> Eric_Jardas: i don't quite now how to answer the question, but shouldn't that question be asked of the forum admins?
* jjesse doesn't quite understand how the forums works
#ubuntu-doc 2007-06-10
<ubotu> New bug: #119721 in ubuntu-doc "Installation Manual: mounting dm-crypt partitions info missing" [Undecided,Unconfirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/119721
#ubuntu-doc 2008-06-02
<ruiboon> Hi all. In http://www.ubuntu.com/products/whatisubuntu/serveredition/features/security, the "Security->Firewall section of the Server Guide" link is pointed to the wrong location. It should be https://help.ubuntu.com/8.04/serverguide/C/firewall.html
<Flannel> ruiboon: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu-website/+bug/235671
<ruiboon> Flannel: ahh. Thanks for the link. Saw it at https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bug/236709 Guess it is the wrong place.
<seisen> is there any way to make another patch without having  the changes I just made to a previous section?
#ubuntu-doc 2008-06-04
<Atamira> does sean still come to chat?
<nixternal> sean who?
<Atamira> weller
<Atamira> wheller
<nixternal> umm, I have seen him in ##docbook a while back
<nixternal> haven't seen him in a while to be honest
<Atamira> mm..its been a while
<Atamira> thanks
<nixternal> no prob
#ubuntu-doc 2008-06-05
<Atamira> are the ubuntu upgrade documentation going to work the same for kubuntu?
<nixternal> if anyone here wants to pimp nickellery for Ubuntu Membership, #ubuntu-meeting now!
<bimberi> Atamira: There is a guide here: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/HardyUpgrades#head-8ee23c592a6b8e8b7d40a5b363cf5fbc7ed3178a
<bimberi> assuming you want 7.10 -> 8.04
<Atamira> unfortunately no...6.06 to 8.04
<Atamira> is thats possible without having to download all the ones in between
<bimberi> Atamira: That's covered here: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/HardyUpgrades#head-8ee23c592a6b8e8b7d40a5b363cf5fbc7ed3178a-2
 * bimberi glares at Moin's bookmarks
<Atamira> it says enable the dapper-updates repository
<Atamira> but doesnt tell a new person how to do that
<Atamira> its all good
<Atamira> ill find it
<Atamira> thanks bimberi
<bimberi> Atamira: yw :)
<bimberi> Atamira: You can probably do that using the "Software Sources" applet, although I'm not sure where it is in Kubuntu.
<bimberi> nixternal might but it's very unfair to ping him because he's very busy elsewhere ;P
<nixternal> ya, one sec :)
<bodhi_zazen> :)
<Atamira> http://www.ubuntu.com/getubuntu/upgrading  <-- thats a better reference to upgrade from 6.06 to 8.04
<bimberi> Atamira: cool, thanks
<bimberi> bodhi_zazen: :)
 * bimberi has been observing the goings on in #ubuntu-meeting :)
<bodhi_zazen> lol, hi bimberi
<bodhi_zazen> seems like a long meeting
<bimberi> bodhi_zazen: hi, and congrats.  Yes, good to see some stayers on that MC :)
<bodhi_zazen> thanks
<bodhi_zazen> OMG, a conversation in this channel, lol
<bodhi_zazen> it is quiet here sooo often
<bimberi> we'll be kicked!
 * bodhi_zazen feels like I'm talking in the Library ...
<bimberi> hehe
<bodhi_zazen> The beginner team is getting primed to wiki
<bodhi_zazen> I do not want to turn new users over to random wiki behavior, so I am referring them to the mentoring team and doing some home training on the beginners pages
<bodhi_zazen> The team is interested in converting gems on the Ubuntu Forums -> wiki pages
<bodhi_zazen> It is in the early phases of discussion, but it should start to slowly ramp up
<bimberi> bodhi_zazen: Sounds great.  I recall something similar in the past, based around https://edge.launchpad.net/~wikiforumteam . I'm not sure how active that is though.
<bodhi_zazen> yea, need to build a team to do that
<bimberi> leoquant: /win 15
<bimberi> bah
<Atamira> bimberi, the dist upgrade went perfectly with that link i pasted. the boys very happy with it, im very happy with it. so much easier
<bimberi> Atamira: Great!  Thanks for the feedback. :)
<Atamira> yw
#ubuntu-doc 2008-06-06
<Old_Soldier> hello :) this is a really quiet channel!
<Old_Soldier> I'm interested in helping the documentation team so i thought i would drop by and introduce myself
<Atamira> normally you introduce yourself via the mailing list
<Atamira> but its all good
<Old_Soldier> I did last night :) at least unless i sent it to the wrong address I think I did lol
<Old_Soldier> ubuntu-doc@lists.ubuntu.com ?
<Alan_M> hey guys, thinking of joining this team, i signed up for the mentorship :)
<Old_Soldier> new blood coming in from the beginner and unanswered posts teams for you folks
<Alan_M> im not an unanswered Old_Soldier  :P
<Old_Soldier> lol easily fixed :) just post before anyone answers
<Alan_M> lol
<Alan_M> trying to do that is harder than it sounds
<nickellery> Hi all, have a look here https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam to see where you would like to work on the Documentation
<nickellery> Technical Reviewing is often the place where beginners start out:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/TechReview
<Old_Soldier> that is where i had planned on starting out nickellery  it sounded like the best way to ease into the team
<nickellery> You can get started anytime;  Get a hold of the repository using these instructions https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/Repository
<nickellery> if you have any questions, feel free to ask
<Alan_M> tech review sounds great to me too.
<nickellery> It would also be good to subscribe to the mailing list:  http://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-doc
<nickellery> Ping Old_Soldier Alan_M
<Alan_M> im here :)
<Alan_M> im doing what you were telling us
<Old_Soldier> ive already subbed to the mailing list
<nickellery> alright
<nickellery> getting used to the repository and bzr takes time
<Alan_M> and i just did, i just gotta click my linkage in email
<nickellery> so feel free to ask any questions
<Alan_M> sure
<Old_Soldier> i'm assuming i need to install bzr and do the work inside my intrepid vm?
<nickellery> you will need to get a hold of the repository via Ubuntu, but the pages are all in .xml text files, so they can be imported to any operating system
<nickellery> and if you just proofreading for mistakes, you generally dont need to using the latest development release
<nickellery> the current documentation most likely doesn't have any technical errors.  It will generally be grammatical, spelling, etc.. errors
<Alan_M> yeah, thats what im doing, grammar and stuff nickellery
<Old_Soldier> ah thats good to know , my intrepid isn't very usuable yet im happy enough starting on the stable stuff
<Alan_M> creating things i suck at, editing work, im good with (if you could believe that)
<nickellery> Alright guys, If you'll excuse me, I must be off.  If you have any future questions, please direct them to the mailing list, or here on the IRC
<nickellery> Good luck!
<Alan_M> sure thing nickellery :D
<Alan_M> thank you!
<Old_Soldier> thanks! have a good one :)
<owh> I'm needing to implement a google search for a team mailing list on the team wiki page, but I'm unsure how best to achieve that in such a way that I get an input box and a search button, rather than a link to a google page.
<Old_Soldier> i'm totally confused :/ is there a document somewhere that correlates a xml files in the repos to its position in the yelp browser?
<nickellery> Old_Soldier, they are generally under the same name
<nickellery> for example, Music, Videos and Photos, is in the musicvideosphotos folder in the repo
<Old_Soldier> thanks nickellery  I plodded along and figured out the problem, I was in the wrong branch i found the tech review status page
<Old_Soldier> and downloaded the proper branch. doh!
<nickellery> Old_Soldier, yes, I was about to mention that that page had both the codenames and the public ones
<Flannel> Anyone else having problems editing/creating wiki pages?  on both h.u.c/community and w.u.c?
<Old_Soldier> I have a quick question I just finished my first technical review and the wiki says to send the diff to the mailing list. Is this still the proper thing to do?
<l3on> mdke: are u there?
#ubuntu-doc 2008-06-07
<alan_m> hey guys, i need to make a request about one of the Wiki pages for the Documentation team as I tried to do the steps in order....aparently the order mentioned is backwards?
<Old_Soldier> whats the problem alan? linky
<alan_m> [1] - https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-doc
<alan_m> [2] - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/Mentoring I thought it was go to the mailing list then mentoring programme, then i got an email that i did it in the wrong order.
<alan_m> I THINK i went to the students first, before i did the list, thats why i got told otherwise.....heck i dont remember :/
<alan_m> lol
<Rocket2DMn> alan_m, did you try to join the team before joining the mailing list?
<alan_m> rocket, it was late when i did it, probably
<Rocket2DMn> ok, lets discuss it in the beginners team channel since im organizing our wiki focus group from there
#ubuntu-doc 2008-06-08
<loner269> hi  i no ill get told go somewere else but can someone plz help me a second
<loner269> i need to get my wireless card runnin lspci says i got this
<loner269>  Network controller: Broadcom Corporation BCM4306 802.11b/g Wireless LAN Controller (rev 02)
<loner269> i had it runnin on 7.4 ce  but i lost all my book marks so i need the page again to set it up
<loner269> im on 8.04 lts or what ever it isnow
<Old_Soldier> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ubuntu-docs/+bug/238383  would that be triaged as low as far as the doc  team is concerned ?
<mdke> Old_Soldier: yes - I think so, because it's not mainstream documentation as is part of the community wiki. You might want to talk to https://launchpad.net/~fabbione about it, he is all about cluster
<Old_Soldier> will do mdke
<Old_Soldier> thanks :)
#ubuntu-doc 2009-06-02
<nhandler> I found an interesting document that Debian uses for Doc NMs. http://svn.debian.org/viewsvn/nm/trunk/nm-templates/doc-nms_howto.txt   Maybe we could base some of our ~ubuntu-core-doc requirements on it
<mdke> please note: I'm in the process of moving some branches around at the moment, please refrain from pushing to Launchpad for the time being, and keep an eye on the mailing list!
#ubuntu-doc 2009-06-03
<sommer> mdke: just to double check... is the archive open?
<nhandler> sommer: Based on his email, it looks like it is safe to push to the bzr branches now
<nhandler> Be sure to use the new locations when you push
<sommer> bonus :-)
<mdke> sommer: what nhandler said, although the ubuntu-doc branches will be renamed to ubuntu-docs in the future (I can't do that myself, and need a LP admin)
* You're now known as ubuntulog
<binarymutant> How can I create an anchor on a page in the Ubuntu wiki?
<binarymutant> is the anchor just a heading? syntax ie: === Anchor ===
<binarymutant> nevermind the above question
#ubuntu-doc 2009-06-06
<rufong> mornin' ya'll
<nhandler> Hello rufong
<rufong> hi nhandler, jus dropped in to see how everyone is doing. i'm on the mailing list, but haven't done a lick o' work. exam time for me
<nhandler> rufong: I completely understand. I just had final exams myself
<rufong> how'd u do?
<nhandler> rufong: Pretty decent. I'm just glad to be on summer break now
<rufong> no doubt. any waves surfable where u are?
<nhandler> rufong: Not really. I'm out in Chicago
<rufong> dang! have u ever been able to try it?
<nhandler> rufong: Not really. Someday I will though
<rufong> that's what i said, until last weekend, har!
<rufong> i'll leave ya to it, ciao nhandler, thx for chattin
 * rufong rocks outta da room with.."you only live once" on imeem-thestrokes
<Shane_Fagan> anyone around with commit privileges ?
<Shane_Fagan> DougieRichardson: Can you look at a bug fix I made? Bug #381739
<ubot4> Launchpad bug 381739 in ubuntu-docs "Error in the server guide" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/381739
<Shane_Fagan> Just a small change
<DougieRichardson> Shane_Fagan: Looks good to me - I don't usually touch the server guide but I'll pass it to Adam
#ubuntu-doc 2009-06-07
<XiXaQ> does anyone ever remove pages from wiki.ubuntu.com? As our history of distros grow longer, there will be lots of old howtos there, and it'll only serve to confuse the user looking for help. Would it be nice to systematically search for old howtos, update the relevant ones and delete the irrelevant ones?
<XiXaQ> just a general question. I don't have any spesific examples right now?
<nhandler> XiXaQ: We do that as we see them. However, we prefer to update the guides or modify the irrelevant ones instead of deleting them (if possible)
<Rocket2DMn> Actually, we don't really deal with wiki.ubuntu.com
<Rocket2DMn> help.ubuntu.com/community are the community docs that we try to maintain
<nhandler> Rocket2DMn: I was talking about more in general, not specifically about the doc team
<Rocket2DMn> good call nhandler
<XiXaQ> searching ubuntuforums and the wiki is really a terrible experience because of all the irrelevant threads and documents. I wish we could delete thread entries on forums too.
<nhandler> Could someone sponsor a tiny patch for me: http://paste.ubuntu.com/190481/
<cody-somerville> nhandler, sure thing
<cody-somerville> nhandler, Do you have a branch I can just merge from?
<nhandler> cody-somerville: No, I can create one if you want
<cody-somerville> nhandler, Not necessary but it gets you karma
<cody-somerville> nhandler, And the launchpad guys are eager to get people testing their merge proposal review feature
<cody-somerville> nhandler, so I leave it up to you to decide
<nhandler> cody-somerville: Fine, I'll create a branch. Just give me a second to push it
<nhandler> cody-somerville: Branch created and proposed for merging
<nhandler> cody-somerville: lp:~nhandler/ubuntu-doc/printing
<nhandler> Thanks cody-somerville ;)
<cody-somerville> nhandler, Okay, should be all merged in
#ubuntu-doc 2010-06-07
<czajkowski> tdr112: aloha
<tdr112> hello all ,
<czajkowski> tdr112: tis a quiet channel not sure if anyone is active.
<tdr112> I was looking at https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Fstab today and i see there is notting on ext4 , and as it been around now since 9.10 , could we get someone to update it ,
<tdr112> I dont know much about fstab myself  , i was trying to automount my other hard drives but as there now ext4 i dont know how to do it
<Kangarooo> hello. again one missunderstading about page https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DebuggingProgramCrash#Hardy%208.04%20and%20Newer after step 6 theres You can download the list-dbgsym-packages.sh  shell script and run it (after a chmod a+x list-symbols-packages.sh)  this way: bash list-symbols-packages.sh yelp i cant DL it immidiatly just by cpoieng link.
<Kangarooo> when i finally opened link theres another link witch i also cant wget only i can DL with Webbrowser it.
<Kangarooo> when i have dowloaded finally then next command is different then dowloaded file bash list-symbols-packages.sh yelp
<Kangarooo> also when made correct name kng@kng-digitron:~$ bash list-dbgsym-packages.sh xfce4-sensors-plugin-dbgsym it gives xfce4-sensors-plugin-dbgsym: No such file or directory.
<Kangarooo> when i see some wrong thinds like these what sould i do? post a bug (time consuming) edit a wiki with (ToDo: Cant wget) (ToDo: Wrong command) or edit to be correct?
<Kangarooo> anybody alive? :)
#ubuntu-doc 2010-06-08
<mquin> someone with revert access on help.ubuntu.com may wish to take a look at https://help.ubuntu.com/community/XChatHowto - seems to have had some malicious alterations in the last few days
<ZachK_> mquin: i'll take a look
<ZachK_> mquin: what malicious alterations do you see?
<ZachK_> or what appears to be such alterations i should say
<mquin> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/XChatHowto?action=diff&rev2=28&rev1=27
<mquin> looks like they're trying to direct the unwary to a few trollpits on another network
<ZachK_> ok i'm going to have to grab that person....thanks for pointing that out
<ZachK_> the launchpad id is invalid...go figure
<mquin> lorez is one of freenode's staff, so that's likely impersonation
<ZachK_> ok
<cody-somerville> Interesting.
<ZachK_> I hate that crap
<cody-somerville> The person is Thomas Pynchon
<ZachK_> ok we shall have to do something about him
<sommer>  mdke:any problem with me updating the HTML version of the serverguide on h.u.c
<LoRez> how would I go about claiming my name on launchpad?
<LoRez> or maybe not launchpad, but help.ubuntu.com... (dunno if that uses launchpad)
<LoRez> everything 'LoRez' has edited should probably be reverted as well.
<jo-erlend> https://help.ubuntu.com/10.04/serverguide/C/bazaar.html states that documentation comes bundled with Bazaar, and is installed by default in /usr/share/doc/bzr/html. But there is no such directory after installing it.
<ZachK_> LoRez: how do we figure out what he's edited?
<ZachK_> go about looking for it?
<LoRez> it's your wiki, not mine :)
#ubuntu-doc 2010-06-09
<enigma9> hello
<ZachK_> hello enigma9
<enigma9> hey ZachK
<ZachK_> and how are  you today?
<enigma9> question - if I submit a change to the documentation and it gets approved to merge, do I need to keep the branch around forever?
<enigma9> ZachK: good, thanks. You?
<ZachK_> ah I don't think so but I'm not entirely sure
<enigma9> when does the change actually get merged?
<ZachK_> once again not sure...i don't work with the official doc team so much as do the community wiki stuff
<ZachK_> what i do is a bit different
<ZachK_> but send an email to the doc list and ask there
<enigma9> thanks ZachK
<ZachK_> :D
<jjesse> the merge will get done after it is approved... there should be a commit message generated stating the merge was done
<jjesse> as far as i understand it it goes request -> approval -> merge -> commit
#ubuntu-doc 2010-06-12
<dns53> i'd like to add some more information to the tomcat page of  the server guide, how do i do this
<ChrisWoollard> Hello :P
<ubuntujenkins> hello ChrisWoollard :P
#ubuntu-doc 2011-06-06
<Rocket2DMn> oops i triggered the wiki surge protection :(
<MrChrisDruif> The what?
<Rocket2DMn> if you make too many requests to the wiki in too short of a timespan, it will lock you out
<MrChrisDruif> Ow...never had one of those....I work to slowly :P
<Rocket2DMn> i work in parallel on the wiki, particularly when i'm making my way through the deletion list like i am now
<MrChrisDruif> Deletion list? Your just deleting wiki pages?
<Rocket2DMn> yes
#ubuntu-doc 2011-06-07
<LinLex> Hi, is anyone floating around here?
<LinLex> hey
<LinLex> I found the lernID package, found out I missed some of the  user classes but still want to contribute
<LinLex> I've taught myself some html, but am currently getting stuck trying to leran python because I'm not really building anything
<LinLex> I wondered if this would be a good place to start contributing to the project?
<LinLex> even "you're a douche" would be helpful around now lol
<Rocket2DMn> whenver i go to the homepage at wiki.ubuntu.com it just redirects me to the last page i visited on the wiki =/
<Rocket2DMn> ah wait, there is a setting - how did that get enabled?
#ubuntu-doc 2011-06-08
<Captainkrtek> hey Rocket2DMn
<Rocket2DMn> hey Captainkrtek
<Captainkrtek> Rocket2DMn, may I PM you?
<j1mc> hi all
<j1mc> Rocket2DMn: i've put together a brief listing of different help resources on the web for ubuntu. http://ubuntuone.com/p/xqu/
<j1mc> are you able to open that?
<Rocket2DMn> Captainkrtek, yeah
<Rocket2DMn> j1mc, yeah, it opens
<j1mc> i have done that as a kind of starting point for discussions on better integrating the various help sites that we have
<Captainkrtek> Rocket2DMn, PM'd
<Rocket2DMn> ok j1mc , i'm trying to do a few things at once right now
<Rocket2DMn> if you ping me later i'll have another look to see if i have other sites
<j1mc> Rocket2DMn: no worries
<j1mc> i'm preparing a note to the ML about it anyway
<j1mc> have a good evening, Rocket2DMn and Captainkrtek
<Captainkrtek> thanks, you too j1mc :)
<Rocket2DMn> you too j1mc
<MrChrisDruif> j1mc; Your Jim of the ML?
<j1mc> MrChrisDruif: yes, that's me.
<MrChrisDruif> Aloha :)
<j1mc> MrChrisDruif: are you on the ML? If so, what's your name on there? Chris Druif?
<MrChrisDruif> Yeah, or just Chris...don't remember :)
<MrChrisDruif> I gave a the first reply on the blog
<j1mc> ah, i see
<Captainkrtek> mdke, are you around?
<MrChrisDruif> So I'm haven't been around very long
<j1mc> MrChrisDruif: no worries. welcome.
<MrChrisDruif> :P I think you also rejected my membership of the docs team, because it's for teams only
<j1mc> we get that a lot - a lot of people apply through there.
<MrChrisDruif> I can't remember is it's mentioned somewhere properly. Might help if it did :)
<j1mc> i can't blame them for being a bit confused - you have to read some detailed stuff to see that you shouldn't apply to that group.
<j1mc> it is mentioned on that page, yeah.
<j1mc> you don't have to look elsewhere - it's right on the page.
<j1mc> there is a separate page for the docs-contributors team, though, and people can easily join that team.
<j1mc> https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-doc-contributors
<j1mc> here is the team that you may have tried to join: https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-doc
<Captainkrtek> I remember when I joined :P
<Captainkrtek> or tried to ;-)
<MrChrisDruif> I got a friendly note attached to my rejection. I wanted to thank you for that j1mc :)
<j1mc> if you have the time, take a look at this page and let me know if you can think of any docs- or help-related sites that i might have missed: http://ubuntuone.com/p/xqu/
<j1mc> MrChrisDruif: you are welcome! : )
<MrChrisDruif> There's only one side for server help?
<j1mc> well, they are working on a set of cloud documentation and a an "ensemble" docs set.
<j1mc> there is also various server help on the wiki, i assume.
<MrChrisDruif> For desktop and server you mean?
<MrChrisDruif> Just look for any app that is run from terminal ;)
<Captainkrtek> MrChrisDruif, also welcome! :-) never welcomed you yet If I recall correctly
<j1mc> "ensemble" is an ubuntu project related to the server/cloud
<MrChrisDruif> Thanks Captainkrtek , but I never properly introduces myself on the mailing-list, so partly my fault :P
<Captainkrtek> ehh ive been afk, havent been watching the ML too closely in the past weeks
<Captainkrtek> very busy with work
 * MrChrisDruif has too many ML's ;)
<MrChrisDruif> manpages.ubuntu.com might be something for me O:-)
<MrChrisDruif> If I look at that list, I think there are TOO MANY place you might be able to find help :-/
<MrChrisDruif> And I don't know how the Manual is set up, but shouldn't it just take pages from help.ubuntu.com and /community?
<MrChrisDruif> I don't know about your timezones....but at mine it's 1:37...AM
<j1mc> it is 7:37 where i am, but i am normally one hour earlier (6:37pm).
<j1mc> MrChrisDruif: ubuntu manual is technically an entirely separate project
<MrChrisDruif> When it's not daylight savings you mean?
<j1mc> their work is not hosted on canonical servers
<j1mc> i included them just as a ntoe
<j1mc> note
<MrChrisDruif> That I understand...was set up by Benjamin if I'm not mistaken?
<j1mc> that's right.
<MrChrisDruif> I can also understand why they wanted to do it...so you've got a one-stop shop for all the default apps in Ubuntu
<MrChrisDruif> But now we've got the situation where something might be updated in the Manual, but not on the wiki
<MrChrisDruif> or help I should say
<MrChrisDruif> But /me is going to bed...we'll discuss it another time :)
<j1mc> take care, MrChrisDruif
<j1mc> thanks for your input
<MrChrisDruif> Yeah, just my 2c....will get to the dollar shortly ;)
<j1mc> yeah - the wiki doesn't receive the dedicated and regular tending that it requires
<j1mc> it is easy to write - it is more difficult to maintain
<MrChrisDruif> If written properly, it doesn't need much maintaining...help pages that is
<j1mc> sometimes... it depends on the topic
<MrChrisDruif> True...
<j1mc> all help requires a good deal of tending. but some stuff... like updating grub. those don't change as much. you're right.
#ubuntu-doc 2011-06-09
<blackmoon-105> hi, this is the right place for ask about ubuntu wiki (community documentation)?  i need to remove an attachment from a page
<blackmoon-105> no ones?
<duanedesign>  /8
#ubuntu-doc 2011-06-10
<S[h]O[r]T> can someone fix the 404 on this URL? :) https://help.ubuntu.com/11.04/installation-guide/example-preseed.txt. It is linked from https://help.ubuntu.com/11.04/installation-guide/amd64/preseed-contents.html
#ubuntu-doc 2011-06-12
<j1mc> hi all - team meeting in one hour in ubuntu-meeting.  :)
<j1mc> philbull: are you able to join us in #ubuntu-meeting?
<philbull> oops, sorry
<S[h]O[r]T> can someone fix the 404 on this URL? :) https://help.ubuntu.com/11.04/installation-guide/example-preseed.txt. It is linked from https://help.ubuntu.com/11.04/installation-guide/amd64/preseed-contents.html
<jbicha> Ubuntu will be using Gnome 3.2 for Oneiric
<jbicha> maybe even 3.1.2 for alpha2 but I'm not sure
#ubuntu-doc 2012-06-04
<littlegirl> Hey there, how do I do a generic info box in an Ubuntu wiki page?
#ubuntu-doc 2012-06-08
<Pro100> Ã¯Ã°Ã¨Ã¢Ã¥Ã²
#ubuntu-doc 2012-06-10
<littlegirl> Hey there, does anybody here use the Mallard markup language?
<shaunm> littlegirl: I do
<littlegirl> Oh, excellent! Do you know how I would make bold text (not <em>) and how I would put an invisible comment into a page>
<shaunm> wonder if she's coming back...
<shaunm> oh well, bed time for me. if she comes back and anybody wants to answer, bold text looks <em style="strong">like this</em>, and for comments she should just use normal <!-- xml comments -->
#ubuntu-doc 2013-06-08
<kotux> hello godbyk
<nikolam> searching help.ubuntu.com does not work again.
<nikolam> (I keep google.com javascripts disabled for good and will never have them enabled)
<godbyk> nikolam: It worked for me: https://help.ubuntu.com/search.html?cof=FORID%3A9&cx=003883529982892832976%3Ae2vwumte3fq&ie=UTF-8&q=compose+key&sa=Search
<godbyk> But I have Javascript enabled.
<nikolam> Obviously, problem is that I do not want to enable google javascripts
<nikolam> But can use ubuntu.com ones
<nikolam> And I will neser enable them, since google javascripst are largely misused on tracking users on internet sites
<nikolam> Also don't want google to know what I search under Ubuntu.com searches.
<nikolam> It worked before.
<godbyk> I just tried the search with Javascript disabled and I see the error you were talking about.
<nikolam> ok.
<godbyk> I'm not sure what options we have there. I'll have to explore it.
<nikolam> It is not the problem to require ubuntu.com scripts. That is reasonable. But not google.
<godbyk> nikolam: Would you mind filing a bug on Launchpad against ubuntu-doc about this?
<godbyk> If we don't want to use Google's custom site search (which seems to require Javascript), then we'd need to set up our own search engine for the site.
<nikolam> It happened before several times, as I can recall, it happens that google changes "something" from time to time, probably specifically to disable current settings for those that don;t want their JS's
<nikolam> godbyk, I think it is also explored before, also concluded in previous years there is quite no solution for internal search? But I doubt there are no solutions, comparing other distros.
<nikolam> Thank you for understanding godbyk
<godbyk> I'm not sure what options we have on the server side. We'll have to chat with Canonical about that.
<godbyk> Right now the docs team just uploads static HTML files for the documentation.
<nikolam> I hope they will care. In previous times, that was sorted out after tweaking on server side. Hope there is positive attitude , toward that.
<nikolam> Afte Unity and leaking searches, I don't know anymore. But thats other topic.
<nikolam> After
<godbyk> nikolam: I understand. If you file a bug on Launchpad about it (you can assign it to me: godbyk), I'll look into it and see what options we have.
<nikolam> thank you godbyk :)
<godbyk> nikolam: No problem. I'm happy to help.
<godbyk> nikolam: I can't promise we'll find a better solution, but I'll at least look into it.
#ubuntu-doc 2013-06-09
<kotux> good  morning
<Tribaal> hi all
<Tribaal> is anyone from teh ubuntu server guide around?
<kotux> ping godbyk
<kotux> hello everyone.
#ubuntu-doc 2014-06-02
<ahoneycutt> pleia2: any advice about doing a session during UOS?
<pleia2> ahoneycutt: having a blueprint prepped with some basic info in the whiteboard helps so folks have some idea of what the session will be about so they can attend
<belkinsa> Do you need one scheduled?
<pleia2> I also pretty much let anyone who wants to join the Hangout part join, the limit is 10 people but most sessions I go to barely hit 4 :) everyone else is in IRC
<pleia2> ah yes, belkinsa is one of the track leads for the community sessions (I'm one for User track)
<belkinsa> I see the tract for the Kubuntu docs.
<ahoneycutt> belkinsa: jose got it setup for us, I followed your layout :)
<pleia2> \o/
<belkinsa> \o/
<pleia2> keeping things on a schedule/topic helps though, much like running an irc meeting, make sure someone is keeping things on topic :)
 * pleia2 eyeballs need screen break, bbiab
<ahoneycutt> pleia2: belkinsa https://blueprints.launchpad.net/kubuntu-docs/+spec/community-1406-kubuntu-documentation-team
<belkinsa> I saw.
<belkinsa> Do you have a time for the track to be scheduled?
#ubuntu-doc 2014-06-03
<ahoneycutt> belkinsa: jose says the best is... Tue,Wed,Thu 3PM UTC-4
<ahoneycutt> somewhere around there
<belkinsa> Alright, so that will be 7 PM EST.
<belkinsa> UCT*
<ahoneycutt> trying to get the best time to see if valorie can come as well
<belkinsa> UTC**
<belkinsa> So, 1900 UTC.
<belkinsa> DOne, it will be on Wed June 13 at 1700 UTC
<belkinsa> 1900*
<ahoneycutt> Nice thanks belkinsa !
<belkinsa> Not a problem.
<belkinsa> Wed's: http://summit.ubuntu.com/uos-1406/2014-06-11/
<belkinsa> balloons and pleia2, ping re:UOS and favours of Ubuntu
<balloons> belkinsa, howdy
<belkinsa> phillw said that you e-mailed e-mail about the UOS and you wanting the favours to say hu
<belkinsa> hi*
<belkinsa> [12:20] <phillw> Hi,
<belkinsa> [12:20] <phillw> a couple of cycles ago I and kubuntu did a 30 minute session of ubuntu beginners. Whilst I'm happy to do another session with 'what, who and where' lubuntu is, is there a call for it? IMHO, each of the flavours should make time to say why they exist and how we all work together.
<belkinsa> [12:20] <phillw> Regards,
<belkinsa> [12:20] <phillw> Phill.
<belkinsa> [12:20] <phillw> Phil, I think this is an excellent idea. I believe Val was looking at sending something to all the flavors to have a little intro to each flavor and talk a bit about it. I think it's perfect. Let me know if you have trouble registering the session.
<phillw> yikes,,, present :) auto-join will be the death of me :D
<balloons> belkinsa, yep this is correct. I think it would be wonderful to see flavors give a session about themselves as a way to introduce them to new community folks
<belkinsa> I have an idea!
<belkinsa> Ubuntu Favors panel.
<belkinsa> One rep from each favour will talk about the favour and the various teams/projects of that favor.
<belkinsa> Of course via Hangouts.
<belkinsa> Or could be called the Favours of Ubuntu Panel.
<belkinsa> Though I think this panel would fit under Users more so than Community.
<belkinsa> Wait, no, nevermind.  It's community.  Just read your blog post, balloons
<balloons> belkinsa, a flavors panel rather than individual sessions? You would just need some flavors folks to agree. Anything that helped spread the information of the flavors and what they are about etc, I would consider a good thing
<belkinsa> Alright, do you have the contacts to the leads of each favour including Ubuntu?
<belkinsa> But you are right about a panel in my idea.
<belkinsa> Now, I think it would be better if it was one panel per favour that focus on the favour and it's team/projects.
<phillw> belkinsa: balloons should have the list of release managers on his wiki list
<belkinsa> phillw, thanks.
<phillw> I'm no longer a RM for lubuntu, but I'll do the 30 min session for lubuntu. julien is up to his eyeballs as we have two releases to get out! 14.10 (normal) and 14.10 (LXQt)
<phillw> as you know, silverlion is also real busy getting comms back up and running.
<balloons> belkinsa, some of those leads have changed for this cycle
<balloons> I think it might be best to ask via the mailing list
<phillw> balloons: get Val to give me a dig in the ribs as to if this is going to happen... I'm usually about :)
<belkinsa> Alright.
<balloons> phillw, well here's me digging! Get the session proposed, do it now :-)
<balloons> phillw, http://uds.ubuntu.com/getinvolved/propose-a-session/
<belkinsa> On it, balloons.
<phillw> balloons: this is me following kubuntu... http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2012/10/24/%23ubuntu-classroom.html#t16:30
<phillw> belkinsa:  / balloons So, it is not too hard for the teams to quickly get an idea of what we did back then. I got some follow up from people.
<phillw> Liz dug those out, my google-fu failed me :(
<belkinsa> So we have Ubuntu, Lubuntu, Edubuntu, Xubuntu, and Kubuntu?
<phillw> Ubuntu-Studion, Kylin Ubuntu-Gnome....
<balloons> belkinsa, there's also ubuntu gnome, mythbuntu, studio and kylin
<balloons> maybe another one I missed off the top :-)
<balloons> but you hit the big ones
<phillw> belkinsa: look on http://iso.qa.ubuntu.com/qatracker/milestones/315/builds
<belkinsa> Thanks
<phillw> that should list all of the family :) And I see no reason not to ask a cloud person to say hello
<belkinsa> I think having a panel/track for all of them will be too much and I think there is not enough room too.
<phillw> belkinsa: I was a driver for the QA classroom sessions... it is a thankless task, but well worth the effort..... just nag people until they submit :D
<belkinsa> http://summit.ubuntu.com/uos-1406/review/
<belkinsa> I have some of them made alreadt
<belkinsa> balloons, what list should i make the call in?
<phillw> belkinsa: simply tell me what channel and when :)
<belkinsa> Alright.
<balloons> belkinsa, ahh i see you placed them all in community
<belkinsa> Because I think they more community based than Users based.
<balloons> belkinsa, I believe there is a flavors leads list
<balloons> belkinsa, otherwise the -devel list for the flavor
<belkinsa> Thanks, on it!
<belkinsa> balloons, done.
<balloons> belkinsa, excellent. I hope the flavors show up and represent :-)
<belkinsa> Is okay if I post this call on my blog?
<belkinsa> And fun at the Q&A
#ubuntu-doc 2015-06-01
<ahoneybun> updated the agenda a bit pmatulis
<pmatulis> ahoneybun: ok
<ahoneybun> added the translate topic
<ahoneybun> need make clear this is a testbed to see if it will work well
<pmatulis> ahoneybun: but right now i don't have the time to lead such a project. so it's yours
<ahoneybun> well 16UTC is 12pm here and I'll be at work...
<ahoneybun> pmatulis: ^
<pmatulis> ahoneybun: well, remove the item from the agenda and send an email to the list
<ahoneybun> well do
<ahoneybun> pmatulis: on the subject of the Open Help Conf, I'd be up for being there for the Docs team
<ahoneybun> mail sent
<ianorlyn> I did some minor tips like talking about the search for character map but that wiki page on the community wiki hadn't been updated since 2009
#ubuntu-doc 2015-06-02
<ahoneybun> pmatulis: around? I just got home from work
<ahoneybun> I've read the backlog from #ubuntu-meeting-2
<ahoneybun> reading this: https://pypi.python.org/pypi/sphinx-intl seems they use .po files
<dsmythies> ahoneybun: pmatulis had to go outside for awhile. He siad he would be back in about an hour, about an hour ago.
<ahoneybun> thanks dsmythies
<pmatulis> ahoneybun: i'm behind schedule. so you read the logs, good
<ahoneybun> supports .po and can make .mo files
<ahoneybun> both of which LP supports
<pleia2> .po files are what I've seen most often used with open source projects
<ahoneybun> <GunnarHj> pmatulis: LP handles PO/MO files. xgettext is capable of extracting translatable strings from a lot of formats.
<pmatulis> ahoneybun: we'll start with applying the new format (not 100% decided which markdown variety) to the installation guide
<ahoneybun> ok
<ahoneybun> seems the best part
<pmatulis> ahoneybun: but we can still research migrating the other stuff, just won't actually start until the team is OK with what the install guide looks like
<ahoneybun> of course
<ahoneybun> no extra work if not needed
#ubuntu-doc 2016-06-06
<bipul> Hi
<bipul> Anyone around?
<pmatulis> bipul, hi, how are you?
#ubuntu-doc 2017-06-07
<Ron___> Good evening.  I am totally new around here.  I found a typo in the LXD docs (port number), is there somewhere to either quickly fix it or submit a request to fix?  It seems like there are a lot of hurrdles to join the doc project so just looking for quick road.
<Ron___> Specifically this page https://help.ubuntu.com/lts/serverguide/lxd.html
<Ron___> mentions 8843, but should be 8443.
<Ron___> aside from that, keep up the good work
#ubuntu-doc 2018-06-05
<alan_g> Hi, I've a tutorial PR'd (https://github.com/canonical-websites/tutorials.ubuntu.com/pull/755) and have revised it after some review comments from colleagues. Is there a way to get the demo refreshed to reflect the changes? And, what happens next WRT getting it merged?
