#ubuntu-classroom 2007-03-28
<RoyB72> anyone here? need help with 2 things... first I'm trying to install NVIDIA nForce drivers, but it's talking about "...no precompiled kernel interface was found to match your kernel..." he tries to compile, but cant make it?
<RoyB72> running a *.run package btw.
<RoyB72> and if I try to compile anything myself I always get this error: ../acore/memalloc.c:49: error: expected ) before string constant
<nalioth> !headers
<ubotu> To install the Linux (kernel) headers, open a terminal and: sudo apt-get install linux-headers-$(uname -r) To install headers for libraries, you need the accompanying -dev packages
<nalioth> you'll need those, and the linux kernel source
<RoyB72> I think I got all this
<RoyB72> got kernel-package, kernel-patch-debian-2.4.27, scripts, kernel-source-2.4.27, libdevmapper(dev), linux-headers(+generic), linux-image(same), linux-libc-dev, linux-source
<RoyB72> anything missing?
<RoyB72> hmm..no linux-kernel-src in the list?
<nalioth> i've never messed with this (use your package mangler to fine the kernel source pkg)
<RoyB72> u mean manager?
<RoyB72> that's where I'm looking now
* nalioth dislikes GUIs
<nalioth> ergo > 'package mangler'
<RoyB72> hmm... some more help?
<RoyB72> I don't even know what it is
<nalioth> don't know what what is?
<RoyB72> I've had linux for 3-4 days
<RoyB72> I've talked to u before
<RoyB72> ;)
<nalioth> yes, i know who you are
<nalioth> what exactly are you looking for?
<RoyB72> well... either I need to compile the audio driver or run the .run package which says what I wrote earlier
<RoyB72> but as said I get those errors
<RoyB72> u say I need linux-kernel-source (not in managers list)
<nalioth> i reallly suspect you've bitten off a big project considering your 4 days of linux usage (unless you've got a really great tutorial)
<nalioth> search for 'kernel-source' in your package mangler
<RoyB72> no idea how to do that.. how do I start mangler?
<RoyB72> hey.. kernel-source-2.4.27 is installed.. or so says manager
<RoyB72> is that it?
<RoyB72> btw.. tried to ask this in #kubuntu and #ubuntu-effects , no help there
<nalioth> RoyB72: synaptic is a package manager
<nalioth> RoyB72: apt-get is a package manager
<nalioth> RoyB72: adept is a package manager
<nalioth> you should be good to go
<RoyB72> well... make aint finishing..
<RoyB72> anything I try to compile I get: error: ../acore/memalloc.c:49: error: expected ) before string constant
<RoyB72> when I run make
<RoyB72> ./configure works fine
<RoyB72> !make
<ubotu> Compiling software from source? Read the tips at https://help.ubuntu.com/community/CompilingSoftware (But remember to search for pre-built !packages first: not all !repositories are enabled by default!)
<nalioth> RoyB72: that is an error in the code  :(
<nalioth> RoyB72: unless you are a developer and can read that stuff....
<nalioth> .... you're pretty much out of luck.
<RoyB72> but I get it all the time, any package
<nalioth> why don't you use the 'nvidia' driver?
<nalioth> you have 'build-essential' installed, i take it?
<RoyB72> crap.. lol
<RoyB72> well.. no good with it either.. same errors..
<RoyB72> need libmodule-build-perl or mpe-source ?
<nalioth> if it tells you you need it, install it
<RoyB72> nothing tells me that I need anything... and the redme and install files don't tell what packages I need either...
<RoyB72> I only got the standard install... a lot is not installed
<nalioth> when you run ./configure, it'll tell you what you're missing
<nalioth> install "build-essential" first
<RoyB72> did when u told me about it
<nalioth> and your ./configure doesn't tell you the packages you are missing?
<RoyB72> nope
<nalioth> that is strange.
<nalioth> anyway, why can't you use 'nvidia' for the driver?
<RoyB72> the ones that come up in adept?
<nalioth> !nvidia
<ubotu> To install the Ati/NVidia drivers for your video card, see https://help.ubuntu.com/community/BinaryDriverHowto
<RoyB72> k.. lemme work on that
<RoyB72> hmm.. brb then..
<RoyB72> well.. gfx drivers are installed I think, just can't configure it... but the default sound is gone.. says mixer can't be found..
<RoyB72> ahh.. gfx config I can access through termina
<RoyB72> *terminal..
<RoyB72> but no sound?
<RoyB72> !mixer
<ubotu> Sorry, I don't know anything about mixer - try searching on http://bots.ubuntulinux.nl/factoids.cgi
<RoyB72> can u help me with the sound? says Mixer cannot be found
<crdlb> RoyB72, open a terminal and run this: lspci|grep audio
<crdlb> and tell me what it says
<RoyB72> 00:04.0 Multimedia audio controller: nVidia Corporation CK804 AC'97 Audio Controller (rev a2)
<RoyB72> ran cam.. it said: Error opening /dev/mixer. : you probably don't have an audiocard that supports a mixer
<crdlb> RoyB72, what did you run?
<RoyB72> cam   cpu's audio mixer for linux
<RoyB72> I think I need some mixer software, but what file is it?
<RoyB72> (package)?
<crdlb> RoyB72, does your sound work at all?
<crdlb> ie, can you play music?
<RoyB72> not after I installed the nvidia drivers...
<crdlb> RoyB72, you mean the nForce drivers?
<RoyB72> says: Could not open/initialize audio device -> no sound
<RoyB72> yea
<crdlb> RoyB72, what happens if you run: nvmixer
<crdlb> ?
<RoyB72> command not found
<crdlb> RoyB72, do you have a link to the driver you installed?
<RoyB72> yea
<RoyB72> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/BinaryDriverHowto/Nvidia
<crdlb> oh the video driver
<crdlb> RoyB72, run this: alsamixer
<RoyB72> alsamixer: function snd_ctl_open failed for default: No such device
<crdlb> RoyB72, let's see if the module is loaded: lsmod|grep snd
<RoyB72> hmm... didn't happen anything
<crdlb> RoyB72, then try this: sudo modprobe snd-intel8x0
<RoyB72> FATAL: Module snd_intel8x0 not found.
<RoyB72> intel? shouldn't it say AMD?
<crdlb> it's intel because afaict your nvidia sound device uses the intel sound driver
<RoyB72> ohh.. k
<crdlb> RoyB72, run: uname -r
<RoyB72> 2.6.17-11-generic
<crdlb> that module should be in linux-image-generic
<RoyB72> it's installed too... so how do I fix that?
<crdlb> RoyB72, you're positive it was working before you installed the drivers?
<RoyB72> yea... there came an error before it started to play though: Requested audio codec family [mp3]  (afm=mp3lib) not available.
<RoyB72> Enable it at compilation.
<RoyB72> guess it used some default drivers
<RoyB72> or maybe I installed too much packages?
<RoyB72> but everytime I selected something for install, nothing came up as remove, so...
<RoyB72> no idea what's going on...
<RoyB72> any way I could run a command that could gather up my sys info, so u could take a look at it and maybe figure something out of that?
<raffytaffy> cat /proc/cpuinfo
<RoyB72> http://paste.ubuntu-nl.org/12496/
<RoyB72> not much info there.. was thinking about drivers, packages installed.. that kind of things
<raffytaffy> lsmod
<RoyB72> http://paste.ubuntu-nl.org/12498/
<RoyB72> crdlb, does that help any?
<crdlb> you don't have anything sound-related loaded
<RoyB72> not now, no..
<RoyB72> just kmix by the clock
<RoyB72> only thing I got running now is Konversation and Konsole
<crdlb> I mean, you have no snd-* modules loaded in your kernel
<crdlb> RoyB72, try this: sudo modprobe snd
<RoyB72> FATAL: Module snd not found.
<RoyB72> FATAL: Error running install command for snd
<RoyB72> need to install libsndobj2c2 ?
<RoyB72> libsndfile1 is installed
<crdlb> nope
<crdlb> you're missing kernel modules
<RoyB72> :(
<RoyB72> anyway to fix it fast and easy?
<RoyB72> didn't installation install all that's needed?
<crdlb> yes
<RoyB72> that's soooo frustrating
<RoyB72> how to fix it then? need to install more or need to compile something, maybe just write a few commands?
<crdlb> RoyB72, pastebin this too: lspci
<RoyB72> http://paste.ubuntu-nl.org/12500/
<crdlb> RoyB72, I don't know what happened to your sound modules, and I'm really not an expert on nforce motherboards
<RoyB72> u sure it got anything to do with that it's nforce? maybe it's just something with the sound modules like on any other motherboard... any way to fix them?
<crdlb> RoyB72, here's something to try from the SoundTroubleshooting page
<RoyB72> the old ones I was thinking about.. when it was at least working.. :(
<crdlb> run this: sudo apt-get --purge remove linux-sound-base alsa-base alsa-utils
<crdlb> sudo apt-get install linux-sound-base alsa-base alsa-utils
<RoyB72> ahh.. hmm... alsa-util alsa-base and linux-sound-base are no longer required
<RoyB72> and install them again? hehe
<RoyB72> well.. installed again.. don't see any difference.. should I restart comp?
<RoyB72> :(
<RoyB72> if I don't have to do something special now it didn't help.. :(
#ubuntu-classroom 2007-03-29
<jrib> Muninn: hi
<Muninn> Hello.
<jrib> Muninn: do you know what the path to your partition is?  /dev/FOO?
<Muninn>  /dev/hda2 I think. Let me just check.
<Muninn> Yes, /dev/hda2
<jrib> Muninn: k, do you want it to automatically be mounted everytime or is this just a one-time thing?
<Muninn> No, just this time.
<jrib> Muninn: ok, first you need to create a mount point
<jrib> so use this command:  sudo mkdir /media/hda2
<Muninn> k
<Muninn> Done.
<jrib> now, you will mount /dev/hda2 with this command:  sudo mount /dev/hda2 /media/hda2
<jrib> that may fail
<Muninn> Doesn't say it has. Doesn't say anything. Just gives me another prompt.
<Muninn> So I assume it worked. I'll check.
<Muninn> Oh it did. Wonderful. Thank you very much. :)
<jrib> Muninn: np
<RoyB72> anyone got an idea where I get xwinwrap from?
#ubuntu-classroom 2007-03-30
<jrib> RoyB72: you can get it from freedesktop svn iirc
<jrib> oops wrong again, it's cvs
<jrib> RoyB72: .insight.res.rr.com]  has joined #ubuntu-classroom
<jrib> RoyB72: sorry, I mean: http://webcvs.freedesktop.org/xapps/xwinwrap/
<RoyB72> thx...
<RoyB72> hmm... don't get it
<jrib> RoyB72: what don't you get?
<RoyB72> 2 files... got some log when I clicked on xwinwrap
<jrib> RoyB72: yeah, needs to be compiled
<RoyB72> so I need to download the 2 and compile?
<jrib> RoyB72: there may be compiled debs somewhere, let me search
<jrib> RoyB72: what version of ubuntu?
<RoyB72> damn u're good to me.. been searching for it for 3 hours, but I suck in that :(
<RoyB72> kubuntu edgy.. 11
<jrib> RoyB72: http://3v1n0.tuxfamily.org/dists/edgy/beryl-svn/  I don't know anything about that repo, so I suggest just using it for xwinwrap
<jrib> RoyB72: you can download the deb and double click so that you don't need to add the repo to sources.list
<RoyB72> :) thx.. A LOT!!
<jrib> np
<nalioth> RoyB72: be careful doing so
<nalioth> RoyB72: some packages want "debian" depends for functionality
<nalioth> if you add the "debian" packages into your Ubuntu, you hose your box.
<RoyB72> dpkg: error processing ///home/royb/Desktop/xwinwrap_0.1+cvs20060209_i386.deb (--install):
<RoyB72>  package architecture (i386) does not match system (amd64)
<RoyB72> :(
<jrib> RoyB72: just compile then
<jrib> it's the added fun of using amd64!
<nalioth> don't forget powerpc
* nalioth loves it
<RoyB72> hmm... how do I compile the 2 files then?
<jrib> RoyB72: you have them downloaded in the current directory?
<RoyB72> yea
<RoyB72> makefile and xwinwrap.c
<jrib> RoyB72: sudo aptitude install build-essential libx11-dev && make
<RoyB72> Makefile:5: *** missing separator.  Stop.
<jrib> you broke it
<jrib> RoyB72: what does your Makefile look like inside?
<RoyB72> weird... to say the least...
<jrib> RoyB72: what is on line 5?
<RoyB72> losts of emty space in the middle
<RoyB72> <!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD XHTML 1.0 Strict//EN"
<jrib> RoyB72: you pressed the "download" link right?  You didn't right-click > save as?
<jrib> yeah, it's a webpage, I did that too, don't worry :)
<RoyB72> "http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml1/DTD/xhtml1-strict.dtd">
<RoyB72> yea.. save as
<jrib> RoyB72: yeah you need to left click on the file, it will show you a revision history
<jrib> ie http://webcvs.freedesktop.org/xapps/xwinwrap/Makefile?view=log
<RoyB72> yea.. I saw that.. went back and saved the makefile
<RoyB72> ohh you mean go in there and click on download the 1.1.1.1 revision?
<jrib> RoyB72: yes
<RoyB72> that one's short
<jrib> good, do the same for xwinwrap.c and try make again
<RoyB72> yay.. no errors this time
<jrib> RoyB72: then just run xwinwrap with:  ./xwinwrap
<RoyB72> ok.. looks fine to me.. where do I put it so the desktop setup can find it?
<RoyB72> nalioth what was the command to enter nvidia setup?
<jrib> RoyB72: /usr/local/bin is a fine place
<jrib> you can also just leave it there and run it with a full path, like  /home/roy/xwinwrap
<RoyB72> yeah.. well.. don't like to write much.. hehe
<nalioth> !nvidia
<ubotu> To install the Ati/NVidia drivers for your video card, see https://help.ubuntu.com/community/BinaryDriverHowto
<RoyB72> I done that.. just don't remember how I started the config
<nalioth> !xcfg
<ubotu> The X Window System is the part of your system that's responsible for graphical output. To restart your X, type  sudo /etc/init.d/?dm restart  in a console - To fix screen resolution or other X problems: http://help.ubuntu.com/community/FixVideoResolutionHowto
<nalioth> i DO wish they'd leave the bloody factoids alone
<nalioth> i'm tired of having to type this out every time
<nalioth> sudo dpkg-reconfigure xserver-xorg
<nalioth> i made the bloody thing a factoid for a reason
<nalioth> but they keep changing it
<RoyB72> nahh... not in there... when I installed nvidia drivers, I could enter the nvdidia with a simple command from konsole...
<jrib> !xconfig
<RoyB72> just don't remember what it was
<ubotu> To reconfigure your X server, open a console and type  sudo dpkg-reconfigure xserver-xorg  - To configure only the driver and resolution, type  sudo dpkg-reconfigure xserver-xorg -phigh  - See also !FixRes
<jrib> heh, someone is splitting them up
<RoyB72> was something with nvidia
<jrib> RoyB72: nvidia-settings  ?
<RoyB72> damn I'm stupid.. tried all nvidia commands with CONFIG.. lol
<RoyB72> thx
<RoyB72> gonna write that one down too..
<jrib> RoyB72: after I forget something I knew I write it in ~/notes and then I just grep it when I need something
<RoyB72> why did I think it was something with config?
<RoyB72> anyone knows why I get a flicker on black color when I change window?
<RoyB72> hmm.. can't change resolution in nvidia settings?
<jrib> I just use system > preferences > screen resolution
<RoyB72> I can't go there after I installed nvidia
<jrib> RoyB72: what happens when you try?
<RoyB72> just says the module Monitor & Display could not be loaded
<jrib> hmm
<RoyB72> that happened on my previous installation too
<jrib> RoyB72: ok, what happens when you use nvidia's tool?
<RoyB72> but I remember I could change the resolutions on nvidia settings after I installed them
<RoyB72> just shows me all the facts, can change color and shit, bot no resolution
<jrib> RoyB72: YOu don't have "X Server Display Configuration" on the left?
<RoyB72> no.. just xserver: color correction and xvideo settings
<RoyB72> opengl settings.. opengl/glx info
<RoyB72> antialiasing settings, thermal monitor, display device...
<jrib> RoyB72: weird, try #ubuntu.  I have not seen that before
<RoyB72> yeah... thx
<RoyB72> under advanced background settings, setting up a background program like this should work, right?
<RoyB72> under command: xwinwrap -ni -argb -fs -s -st -sp -b -nf -- /usr/lib/xscreensaver/glmatrix -window-id WID -delay 10000
<RoyB72> and executable: xwinwrap + xscreensaver
<RoyB72> that's pasted commands, just don't know if they are in the right places
<RoyB72> get: glmatrix: window 0x2400002's visual 0x134 does not support the GLX extension.
<RoyB72> anyway to fix that?
<RoyB72> tried to run the above command in konsole
<RoyB72> uhmm... guys.. need help.. I uninstalled my nvidia packages, and now I can't get back in
<RoyB72> wanted to see if I could get back sound.. :(
<RoyB72> I end up in tty1
<l90bpm> wow..  we got a pretty long wait till Saturday,,,
<l90bpm> I need to be schooled on how to make a wvx file type play in ubuntu..  anyone figures that out...  I will be very greatful..
<jrib> patience++
#ubuntu-classroom 2007-03-31
<raffytaffy> Roy
<raffytaffy> RoyB72
<raffytaffy> nvm then ..back to movies
#ubuntu-classroom 2007-04-01
<Kir1> Hi, I moved from WinXP to UBUNTU two days ago but can't figure out how to setup for programming in gcc, python, and load in other packages beyond my desktop.
<sareth> have you used the package manager?
<Kir1> Applications / add-remove doesn't list gcc or python
<sareth> System > Administrator > software sources ... i believe. then add the universe repositories
<jrib> Kir1: lets do one at a time
<jrib> Kir1: you already have python
<Kir1> I have python downloaded to my desktop
<jrib> Kir1: nah, you have python already installed
<jrib> it's a fundamental part of Ubuntu
<Kir1> Ok, how do I use it?
<jrib> Kir1: do you know the python language already?
<Kir1> no
<Kir1> one guy suggested it would be a good front end for c++
<jrib> ok
<jrib> Kir1: docs.python.org and www.diveintopython.org are great resources for learning the language.  #python is great too if you have any questions about programming in python
<jrib> Kir1: there are two ways to use python.  You can write scripts and then run them or you can use it interactively in the interpreter
<Kir1> Ok.
<jrib> basically to write a script, you use your favorite text editor.  At the top you write "#!/usr/bin/env python" without the quotes.  After that, you write your python
<jrib> Kir1: to use the interpreter, just write "python" in the terminal and press enter
<Kir1> Great!  Thank you.
<jrib> Kir1: np, gcc is a bit different.  You need to install that yourself (using the package manager)
<Kir1> What do I do with other software I download for python or gcc
<jrib> Kir1: there is a "gcc" package but you will want to install "build-essential" to get the basic stuff you need to actually compile and build programs
<jrib> Kir1: the command to install build-essential is "sudo aptitude install build-essential" or you can use system > administration > synaptic
<jrib> Kir1: what software do you mean?  example?
<Kir1> Mesa, libMgTk, freeGlut, SDL
<jrib> Kir1: all that stuff should be in the repositories, just use synaptic or apt
<jrib> except I don't know what MgTK is
<Kir1> It's advertized on a webpage as a wrapper for one of the openGL clones.
<jrib> link?
<Kir1> http://www.bebits.com/appver/1592
<Kir1> There's a backlink on the page
<jrib> updated 2001?
<jrib> seems a bit old
<Kir1> Yeah, I don't know if I need it-- what I want to do is write a GUI for my robot to work over wireless.
<jrib> just use python with pygtk
<Kir1> Ok, I'll look pygtk up.
<jrib> Kir1: do you care what language it is in?  almost every language has gtk bindings
<Kir1> Not much but I had a custom language written in VB.Net and it turned out way to slow especially for graphics.
<Kir1> that's like minutes per screen instead of 30 FPS or better.
<Kir1> So that, not wanting to pay Microsoft for my robot software if it ever makes me a dime, and some ethernet bug in my WinXP (and general frustration with MS over the years) motivates my move to UBUNTU.
<jrib> good reasons
<Kir1> Ok, so how do I access c++?   I did what I saw on a blog to install gcc but I found it only loaded 4.0 instead of 4.1 the current release.  Then I still couldn't find any way to call it.
<jrib> Kir1: after installing build-essential, you can compile things like this:   g++ -o outputfilename sourcecodefile.cc
<Kir1> The load old command was:
<Kir1> sudo apt-get install gcc build-essential
<Kir1> Do you specify a filepath like in Windows or just accept the default?
<jrib> well I assume you are in the same directory as the source code
<Kir1> How do you change directories in UBUNTU?
<jrib> Kir1: cd /path/to/new/place
<jrib> !cli | Kir1
<ubotu> Kir1: The linux terminal or command-line interface is very powerful. Open a terminal via Applications -> Accessories -> Terminal (Gnome) or K-menu -> System -> Konsole (KDE).  Manuals: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/BasicCommands
<Kir1> Yes I'm already seeing the command line is much more used here.  In Windows there were some important commands but you had to go to a computer store to learn them.
<Kir1> This UBUNTU has the first terminal, not the K-menu option
<jrib> you are using GNOME then
<Kir1> I guess?
<jrib> yeah, it is default for ubuntu
<Kir1> It came on a free UBUNTU Labeled and eveloped CD-R from a computer repair shop.
<jrib> Kir1: cool, where's the repair shop out of curiousity?
<Kir1> Clatskanie, OR  USA.  Unfortunately he doesn't know enough to get me set up but he said if I learn it he'll be asking me questions.
<jrib> ah
<Kir1> So where are you all from?
<jrib> Kir1: I'm from boston
<Kir1> Well small world -- during the Clinton years I'd get lots of invitations to move my robot business to Mass. even though I didn't have a product yet.
<Kir1> Still don't but maybe after I get this GUI done.
<Kir1> Well, I've gone back and copied all the good advice from this conversation into an email to myself.  Anything else that should be said before signing off?
<jrib> Kir1: well help.ubuntu.com has a nice intro to ubuntu in general.  There are a bunch of programming irc channels, usually ##language or #language to help you with the programming and there is always #ubuntu for help with ubuntu.  Good luck with your project!
<Kir1> Thank you much!
<wims> def typo
<blimpdude> i added a ?
#ubuntu-classroom 2008-03-25
<james_w> Hi all, there's a MOTU School session scheduled for here in 20 minutes, that doesn't clash with anythin does it?
<james_w> I realise this is a bit late to be checking
<pleia2> nope, it's fine
<james_w> thanks pleia2
<geser> Hi james_w
<james_w> hi geser
<james_w> thanks for helping out
<james_w> I might say some stupid things, so please feel free to correct me if I do.
<james_w> Hi, all, it's 20:00, time to get started?
<james_w> Who's here for the MOTU School session?
 * sebner is
 * RainCT is around to see what's going on :)
<sebner> aloha RainCT btw :)
 * Iulian too
 * highvoltage is here ready for duty
 * ssweeny three
 * geser is here to help out where needed
<james_w> hi all, good to see you all.
<james_w> feel free to ask any questions as we go, or to just point out where I'm being silly.
<james_w> First off, who can tell me what FTBFS stands for?
<sebner> Fails to Build from Source
<highvoltage> failed to build from source!
<james_w> I neglected to put that in the announcement email, which I saw confused at least one person.
<highvoltage> (without the exclamation mark)
<james_w> cool, that's a good start.
<james_w> has anyone worked with them before
<james_w> ?
 * geser has :)
 * sebner also
<sebner> aloha DktrKranz :) :) :)
<highvoltage> had to fix them before, but not for ubuntu/debian packages really.
<DktrKranz> hi sebner
<james_w> right, so I think a quick overview is all that is called for then.
<james_w> FTBFS means that a source package was uploaded, but it couldn't be built on the buildd.
<james_w> This means that the binary packages are not available in the archive, so users are not able to get the bug fixes or the juicy new features that are available.
<james_w> so, it's obviously important to keep on top of the failures, so that the packages make it out to the users
<james_w> also they are pretty annoying if you are trying to do a transition, as if the packages don't build it's more work to complete the transition
<james_w> so, where do we find out what packages FTBFS?
<james_w> we start off by going to the ubuntuwire QA page:
<james_w> http://qa.ubuntuwire.com/
<james_w> there's two pages there we can look at, the first link:
<james_w> http://builder.ubuntuwire.com:9998/dist/hardy/arch/i386
<james_w> is just a record of a lot of rebuilds, a bit lower down is the one we are going to look at:
<james_w> http://people.ubuntuwire.com/~geser/build_status/
<james_w> if you open that you can see that it lists all the source packages that failed to build on at least on architecture.
<sebner> geser: a lot of work for you :P
<james_w> you can see that there are a lot of failures on some architectures, such as hppa.
<james_w> and fewer for the more common architectures, such as i386
<james_w> sometimes you can see a horizontal row of red, which means that the package failed on all architectures,
<james_w> this will often mean that the package is really bad, or there is some silly mistake in the rules file or similar,
<geser> just for comparison http://people.ubuntuwire.com/~geser/build_status-gutsy/ where there wasn't much effort to fix FTBFS
<james_w> these ones are usually either really easy, or really hard.
<james_w> so, there are three main colours in use.
<james_w> The first is green, which means that the package is currently building, we can ignore these until they fail.
<james_w> The second is amber, which means that the package is in the dep-wait state.
<james_w> This means for instance that the package has a versioned build-dependency that cannot be satisfied currently.
<geser> green is failed to upload, which means the package build successfully but soyuz failed to upload the debs to the archive for some reason
<sebner> geser: what reason could that be?
<james_w> ah, my apologies, it links to the log with BUILDING, I should have read the key.
<james_w> you can find the key to the colours at the top of the page.
<geser> sebner: e.g. LP tried to build packages again which weren't touched since breezy (the version is still the same) and the archive didn't accept the "second" upload
<james_w> geser: am I right in saying that packages in the dep-wait state usually take care of themselves?
<sebner> geser: k :)
<slangasek> most of them do
<geser> james_w: yes, if the waited build-dependency is available they will build automatically
<james_w> thanks
<geser> but it can't hurt to look why they are in dep-wait
<geser> e.g. the build-dependency failed to build
<geser> or a main package build-depending on something from universe
<slangasek> but some of them won't, because the build-dependency will never become available for the arch - wrong build-depend on the architecture, package not appropriate for the arch and should be moved to P-a-s, or some buildd admin goofed when setting a manual dep-wait
<james_w> so, that leaves packages in the red as the third main group, these are the ones where the build failed for some reason, and always require manual intervention.
<rockstar_> geser, in the case of a main package depending on something from universe, how do you proceed?
<james_w> sometimes that intervention is as simple as trying again.
<james_w> rockstar_: if the dependency is for some optional functionality that can be abandoned then the build-depends can be dropped.
<james_w> if it's a required dependency then a Main inclusion request should be filed for the package in universe so that the main package can depend on it.
<james_w> another choice would be to split the package in main if possible to move the part that depends on the universe package to universe. This may be appropriate for plugins packages and the like.
<james_w> so, how do we deal with a package in the failed state?
<james_w> firstly you can see what the status of the package is in Debian, as a lot of the failures will occur there as well.
<james_w> if you look in the rightmost column of the table you will see pairs of links,
<james_w> "PTS" and "BTS"
<james_w> the second is the bug tracking system for the Debian package.
<james_w> click on that and you will be taken to the bug page.
<james_w> Failures to build are often reported very quickly to the Debian BTS, as there are a few people that regurlarly rebuild the entire archive, and so pick up on these problems quickly.
<james_w> there are also bugs filed if an upload fails to build.
<james_w> so, if you click on the BTS link for acl2 you will see an example
<james_w> http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/pkgreport.cgi?src=acl2
<james_w> the string FTBFS will usually be in the summary of bug reports, so you can quickly search for that, in this case you will see
<james_w> http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/pkgreport.cgi?src=acl2
<james_w> sorry,
<james_w> http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=459060
<james_w> this could well be the problem with the package in Ubuntu as well.
<slangasek> (also, FTBFS bugs in Debian /should/ be filed as severity important or serious)
<james_w> yes, so they will usually be right at the top of the page.
<james_w> the other alternative is that the problem has already been fixed in Debian, in which case the bug
<james_w> will be closed, and show up further down.
<james_w> The PTS link can also help here, as it points to the various uploads of the package and other things, so you can work out what happened to the package.
<highvoltage> would an FTBFS bug in universe also be marked as serious or important, or just for main?
<james_w> highvoltage: this is for Debian, which doesn't have that distinction.
<highvoltage> ok
<slangasek> right, the distinction in Debian is regression -> serious, needs porting -> important
<james_w> however, if a bug was filed in launchpad for a FTBFS then I assume that it would be given a Critical or High severity.
<geser> it's also good to compare the build logs to see if it's the same FTBFS error
<slangasek> but it's simplest to just look at both groups if you're looking in the Debian BTS
<james_w> but as geser says you can't just assume that it is the same problem, so let's look at the build log to see how we work out what went wrong.
<james_w> In Debian the bug will either contain the last part of the build log, or the full thing will be attached (or both)
<sebner> james_w: SHELL = /usr/bin/bash in debian/rules ?
<james_w> in Ubuntu you can go back to the status page and click on the failed entry in the arch you are interested in, so let's look at the one for acl2
<james_w> sebner: it may be, as it is reported to be a bash problem, but that's not the preferred solution really.
<sebner> james_w: k :)
<james_w> so the acl2 log for i386 is at
<james_w> http://launchpadlibrarian.net/7731665/buildlog_ubuntu-gutsy-i386.acl2_3.2-1_FAILEDTOBUILD.txt.gz
<james_w> if we open it and scroll to near the end you will see what the problem was in Ubuntu
<james_w> and in this case you will see that it appears to be the same error message, and so it appears to be the same problem.
<james_w> for those that don't know about this issue I will say a few words on it.
<james_w> There are a whole bunch of shells available. The default on Ubuntu (and Debian) for when you log in as your user is /bin/bash
<james_w> however Ubuntu took the decision to switch /bin/sh to point to /bin/dash instead of /bin/bash, which it has historically done in Debian, and older releases of Ubuntu
<geser> one note: acl2 FTBFS only on i386 (and succeed on the others). The FTBFS list shows only the i386 entry. arch:all packages have also only one entry as the package is only build on the i386 buildd. So lines with i386 only may also be equal important as lines full red.
<james_w> dash, as the name suggests, is faster than bash
<geser> james_w: are you looking at the correct log? the last version of acl2 is 3.3-1ubuntu1: http://launchpadlibrarian.net/12247407/buildlog_ubuntu-hardy-i386.acl2_3.3-1ubuntu1_FAILEDTOBUILD.txt.gz
<james_w> and as /bin/sh is what system scripts get as their interpreter this makes things run quicker, including the boot process
<slangasek> (hmm, I wonder what it suggested back when it was just called "ash" ;)
<sebner> james_w: when we log in as user it's /bin/bash. why not /bin/dash ?
<RainCT> sebner: bash has more features :)
<james_w> geser: dammit, I switched to the gutsy page to have a look, thanks for pointing that out.
<sebner> RainCT: but dash is faster?
<james_w> sebner: because /bin/bash is in /etc/passwd for your user
<sebner> They should merge ^^
<slangasek> dash is not a very good interactive shell
<geser> sebner: because /etc/passwd has /bin/bash as shell for you
<slangasek> e.g., it doesn't have readline support
<sebner> k
<RainCT> sebner: dash is faster, but bash is more convenient for interactive usage
<james_w> ok, so I'll drop the bash/dash discussion as it's not relevant here
<james_w> except to say that this was the cause of a lot of problems for Ubuntu, and so a lot was fixed. However, Debian also aims to allow this change to be made, and so they care now about the fixes
<james_w> so if you fix something in a package to do with bash/dash, make sure to forward the fix to Debian, as it is a release goal for lenny.
<james_w> ok, so we'll instead look at the package that I picked out for this, can you all open
<james_w> http://launchpadlibrarian.net/12605855/buildlog_ubuntu-hardy-i386.dag2html_1.01-2build1_FAILEDTOBUILD.txt.gz
<james_w> and scroll to the bottom?
<james_w> you will see that this package fails to build with an error
<james_w> (I picked an easy one on purpose)
<james_w> make[1]: camlp4r: Command not found
<james_w> make[1]: *** [dag2html.cmo] Error 127
<james_w> so, the build uses a command that isn't available.
<james_w> This is another common source of problems.
<sebner> missing build-dep?
<james_w> If the build uses a command then the package should Build-Depend on the package that provides the command.
<james_w> sebner: exactly
<james_w> so, let's fix this one shall we.
<james_w> First, you should install "apt-file" if you haven't already.
<james_w> "sudo aptitude install apt-file && sudo apt-file update"
<james_w> now, you will be able to query apt-file to find which package contains the command
<james_w> apt-file search camlp4r
<geser> or packages.ubuntu.com for the lazy ones :)
<james_w> which tell me (amongst other things)
<james_w> camlp4: /usr/bin/camlp4r
<james_w> so, we can grab the source of the package in question (dag2html)
<james_w> apt-get source dag2html
<james_w> and check its debian/control file for the Build-Depends line
<james_w> Build-Depends: debhelper (>= 4.0.0), ocaml-native-compilers
<james_w> so, it doesn't list the package we found, but first we should make sure that it is supposed to, what's this "ocaml-native-compilers" package?
<james_w> apt-cache show ocaml-native-compilers
<james_w> that contains:
<james_w> This package contains the native code version of the compilers and lexer
<james_w>  (ocamlc.opt, ocamllex.opt, ocamlopt.opt, camlp4o.opt and camlp4r.opt).
<james_w> hmm, it says "camlp4r.opt", and we want camlp4r, maybe that's the problem.
<Flare183> looks like it
<james_w> so, what do we think the solution is?
<geser> it looks like camlp4r moved from ocaml-nox (gutsy) into it's own package camlp4r in hardy
<sebner> geser: camlp4
<sebner> http://packages.ubuntu.com/hardy/camlp4
<Flare183> looks like something in the rules file
<sebner> d.p on camlp4
<geser> sebner: yes, I typed the package name from head
<sebner> k
<james_w> so, in the build log I can see "dh_clean: Compatibility levels before 4 are deprecated."
<james_w> so it's possible that this is an old package that has not been keeping up with transitions
<geser> [2004-09-15] Accepted 1.01-2 in unstable (low) (Cyril Bouthors)
<geser> the last upload to Debian
<james_w> thanks geser
<geser> that info is from the PTS entry for that package
<james_w> ok, so thanks to geser we know that ocaml-nox used to contain the file
<james_w> ocaml-native-compilers is in the Build-Dependencies, and that depends on ocaml-nox
<james_w> so that would have made the commands available before the transition
<james_w> so, we need to add camlp4 to Build-Depends to bring the commands back I think
<geser> that would be my guess too
<james_w> that is why when you create a package you should ensure that anything it uses, either when building, or when running, is provided *directly* by the Build-Depends.
<james_w> if you rely on an indirect dependency then this may happen eventually, which creates more work.
<james_w> so, I'll create a patch for this package, so that we can remove one more package from the list.
<james_w> however, it's important to still test the patched package, as a build log will only show you the first failure, it's possible the package will fail with a different error once this is corrected.
<james_w> has anyone got any questions?
<james_w> http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=443029 is the Debian bug report, so I will send any patch their as well.
<sebner> james_w: we don't need any versioning here right?
<slangasek> (how many licks does it take to get to the center of a tootsie roll FTBFS?)
<james_w> sebner: I don't think so no.
<james_w> slangasek: tootsie roll?
<slangasek> james_w: nevermind, I'm just making oblique cultural references to US TV commercials... :)
<geser> sebner: a versioned build-dependency is only needed when an old package won't be sufficient
<sebner> geser: k
<james_w> ok, so if there's no more questions we'll wrap this up and I'll get on with the patch.
<geser> sebner: the most common case: debhelper >= 5 if one uses compat level 5 (debhelper 4 doesn't support obviously level 5)
<james_w> thanks to geser and slangasek for correcting me, and to everyone else for coming.
<rockstar_> Thanks for taking the reins james_w
<sebner> geser: k
<james_w> I don't know what the session will be next month, so if you have any ideas or suggestions please vote on the wiki.
<james_w> though given the date perhaps "how to have a rocking release party" would be a good session.
<slangasek> :-)
<slangasek> step 1) fix the FTBFS bugs before release
<james_w> or perhaps doing it after release would make more sense, in which case it would be "how to hug slangasek"
<slangasek> heh
<geser> some note to the depwait on the ftbfs list: as the list gets generated once daily some dep-waits may be gone when one looks as the list, e.g. clutter-cairo right now, so it's good idea to double-check the build-status on LP
<sebner> james_w: ehm. just test builded. now I have a different error. it still FTBFS
<james_w> sebner: damn
<james_w> sebner: shall we take this to -motu?
<sebner> james_w: well. it's a FTBFS session ^^
<sebner> james_w: http://pastebin.com/m4e44a0e8
<sebner> But I'm wondering why nobody except me test-builded it
<james_w> sebner: in the session?
<sebner> james_w: Well I'm the only one complaining
<james_w> sebner: I think everyone else was treating it as a theoretical thing
<sebner> It seems that I have further experience ^^
<sebner> james_w: already found the mistake?
<james_w> sebner: still installing the build dependencies
<sebner> ah ^^
<sebner> james_w: I suppose you have the same error?
<Laney> sebner: I see it too
<james_w> sebner: yep.
<geser> pa_ru.cmo was part of ocaml-nox in gutsy but vanished in hardy
<james_w> yep
<james_w> I think we should just kill the package.
<sebner> james_w: that's another way to kill FTBFS bugs ^^
<mok0> I was afraid it was coming to this...
<james_w> mok0: are you a fan of the package
<mok0> no
<mok0> Just waiting to see the bug resolved in the tutorial :-)
<sebner> hrhr
<Laney> At least 59 people have it installed, according to popcon ;)
<james_w> mok0: :-)
<mok0> so this is a bug in camlp4 that was discovered here...
<james_w> why?
<mok0> because a file that used to be present in ocaml and was not moved to camlp4
<james_w> perhaps, I don't know enough about it to say whether that is a bug
<mok0> ... a consequence, at least
<Laney> http://caml.inria.fr/pub/docs/manual-camlp4/manual002.html talks about pa_ru.cmo
<james_w> I'm going to email a bunch of people about this package
<james_w> namely the maintainer, the pkg-ocaml team, and debian-qa.
<geser> james_w: you should've picked up an easier case for the session :)
<james_w> I thought it was easy :-)
<james_w> they never are...
<james_w> actually, I had a better one, but someone uploaded a fixed version at the weekend.
<geser> james_w: you should've picked ocaml-alsa
<geser> it was an easy one (and 6 other ocaml-* packages with the same error)
<james_w> it will be useful though if we get to kick a bad package from the archive.
<sebner> well no one knows. everybody left ^^
<geser> james_w: good you didn't pick scala as an example (the build log is huge)
<geser> 383M 2008-02-27 08:06 buildlog_ubuntu-hardy-i386.scala_2.5.0-1_FAILEDTOBUILD.txt
<sebner> geser: what's scala?
<geser> a package with a FTBFS
<geser> I don't know more
<sebner> xD
<geser> only that the build log killed my old box (1 GB RAM, no swap)
<geser> I tried to open that build log in firefox
<DareDevil> Hello I have a problem with ubuntu can you help me please??
<sebner> DareDevil: #ubuntu
#ubuntu-classroom 2008-03-26
<taosinker> what is the present topic?
<pleia2> Zelut: I lost track, do we have a contact for UOW yet? jorge just sent out the email to past UOW presenters with tenative dates and plans
<Zelut> pleia2: I emailed jono but his reply was 'we'll talk soon'..
<pleia2> Zelut: k, just fwded you the mail
<Zelut> ok
<ddalton> hey how do I create a new thred forum in the forums? I registed, but im blind and don't see a link to do this
<ddalton> regestered
<ddalton> registered
#ubuntu-classroom 2008-03-27
<eth01> :/
<jono> eh
<soren> eh, indeed.
<Zelut> jono: I think that's the first peep we've heard out of you in a long while.
<jono> Zelut: heh, bit busy
<Zelut> understandable
 * Zelut wishes he could make LRL in SF this year :(
#ubuntu-classroom 2008-03-28
<thiemster> When's the next ubuntu classroom monthly session going to take place? The website is outdated, and gives a date for the next session earlier this month.
<Zelut> thiemster: we're working on that. should be near the hardy release
<thiemster> thanks
<thiemster> so that should be late april?
<Zelut> tentatively, yeah.
<thiemster> the website wasn't that clear. what exactly are the monthly sessions?
<Zelut> the topics can range from packaging to bugs to desktop usage, etc.
<Zelut> basically teaching users on how to contribute or be more efficient.
<thiemster> cool. i'll be sure to attend the next one. thanks
<Zelut> anyone can present as well so if you have something you'd like to share/show off let us know.
#ubuntu-classroom 2008-03-30
<tcpdumpgod> w00t
<JonathanElli1> jrib: Hello
<jrib> hi
<JonathanElli1> Just waiting for reboot
<JonathanElli1> Error message as follows: User's $Home/.dmrc file is being ignored. This prevents the default session and language from being saved. File should be owned by user and have 644 permissions. User's $HOME directory must be owned by user and not writable by other users.
<jrib> JonathanElli1: hmmm, did you recursively change the permissions on your HOME?
<JonathanElli1> I think this was the error previously. In future I will always write error messages down rather than trying to rely on my memory!
<JonathanElli1> Erm. It was a few days ago but I think yes, because it seemed the "easy" (sorry, lazy! - please forgive a recent convert from windows) way to set permissions on all the files and directories beneath /home/username. With hindsight I guess I should have changed permissions on /home/username/*.* recursively instead
<jrib> JonathanElli1: well you shouldn't have needed to change any
<jrib> JonathanElli1: can you get to a terminal now?
<JonathanElli1> Yes. All applications start and I have opened a terminal. Presumably I now need to chmod /home/jonathan 644. Is that right before I break it again?!
<jrib> JonathanElli1: what does 'ls -ld ~/.dmrc' return?
<JonathanElli1> -rw-rw-rw- 1 jonathan jonathan 28
<nalioth> JonathanElli1: no
<jrib> JonathanElli1: k, 'chmod 644 ~/.dmrc'
<nalioth> JonathanElli1: if you recursively change _all_ the files under your homedir, you will create a brick.
<JonathanElli1> I dont understand why my laptop, logged on as the same username and password couldnt access the files
<nalioth> JonathanElli1: the permissions, that is
<nalioth> sorry to interrupt, jrib, but i thought i'd throw that in
<JonathanElli1> Yes. I already discovered that the hard way! Now we are trying to fix it
<jrib> JonathanElli1: actually, my ~/.dmrc is 600, so do that instead
<jrib> sure nalioth
<nalioth> easiest way is to back up your stuff you want to keep and reinstall  :(    ( just my opinion )
 * nalioth has done this  ( recursively chmodded himself )
<JonathanElli1> What is the difference between 644 and 600, and please don't say 44 :-(
<jrib> the 44 means read for group and others
<jrib> "read privileges"
<JonathanElli1> Nalioth. Backing up an entire hard drive strikes me as a lot harder than typing half a dozen commands into a terminal!
<JonathanElli1> Especially when I couldnt start any applications to actually do the backup
<jrib> nalioth: if he backs up the data in his home, it's going to retain the permissions anyway though, right?  I suppose he could delete all the dot files and let them be recreated
<nalioth> JonathanElli1: not the whole drive
<JonathanElli1> So 600 is rwx for u, 644 is rwx for u plus r for go, correct?
<nalioth> jrib: i made myself a new user, actually
<JonathanElli1> Why do I need to delete anything. Why cant we chmod them back to what they should be
<jrib> JonathanElli1: when you recursively changed the permissions on your HOME, you performed an operation that is impossible to reverse.  It is as though I change all the letters "A" and "B" to "X" and then ask you to tell me what was "A" and what was "B" in the word "XXXXX"
<nalioth> and transferred over the stuff i needed, as i needed it
<JonathanElli1> OK
<nalioth> JonathanElli1: because they are all different
<nalioth> JonathanElli1: most are permissioned for you, but some the system has assigned specific perms
<JonathanElli1> Yes, your answer came through just before I posted my question
<jrib> JonathanElli1: your statement about 600 and 644 was correct
<JonathanElli1> So why do you suggest 600 when the error message suggested 644?
<jrib> JonathanElli1: on my system it is 600.  You can try both if you like.  Both will probably work
<JonathanElli1> Hmm. No disrespect intended but I would prefer to do it by the book - ie 644
<jrib> go for it
<JonathanElli1> So I will do chmod 644 ~/.dmrc   Correct?
<jrib> yes
<JonathanElli1> By the way, can you remind me what ~ is and what the . prefix does?
<jrib> ~ means /home/jonathan
<jrib> . is part of the filename
<JonathanElli1> Yes. There are lots of files prefixed .               They seem to be hidden. Does the dot make them hidden or designate them as system files?
<nalioth> the dot designates a hidden file
<nalioth> !cli
<ubotu> The linux terminal or command-line interface is very powerful. Open a terminal via Applications -> Accessories -> Terminal (Gnome) or K-menu -> System -> Konsole (KDE).  Guide: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UsingTheTerminal
<JonathanElli1> Thanks. OK. So now the permissions are -rw-r--r--
<JonathanElli1> Now I think I need to create a new user and copy all my documents, music, videos etc to the new user. I guess this will mean that the new user profile (sorry for the windows speak - dont know the correct unix term yet) has correct permissions set for the essential files and directories?
<JonathanElli1> Will I then be able to delete the buggered-up jonathan and rename the newuser to jonathan?
<JonathanElli1> Or must I delete jonathan and recreate it and copy everything back again?
<jrib> JonathanElli1: create new user, copy data, transfer ownership of data to new user, delete old user, rename new user.  Unfortunately I have to go now though
<jrib> JonathanElli1: if you can live with a different username until someone else can help or you poke me tomorrow, you should be able to do steps 1-3 above
<JonathanElli1> Thanks. I can probably manage 4 & 5 as well. Any idea why the laptop couldnt access the files even though it was logged in as the same user and pwd? Thats why I started the whole fiasco in the first place
<jrib> JonathanElli1: permissions are determined by uid
<jrib> a number
<JonathanElli1> uid?
<JonathanElli1> !uid
<ubotu> Sorry, I don't know anything about uid - try searching on http://ubotu.ubuntu-nl.org/factoids.cgi
<jrib> JonathanElli1: type 'id' in your terminal
<JonathanElli1> Both laptop and desktop show 1000 for jonathan
<jrib> JonathanElli1: then it probably should have worked.  How did you copy them?
<JonathanElli1> So it seems to me that it should have worked
<JonathanElli1> Using file manager and navigating to //desktop/jonathan/blahblah
<jrib> samba?
<JonathanElli1> Or possibly ///desktop/jonathan/blahblah
<JonathanElli1> No. I shouldnt need samba cos both machines are running ubuntu
<jrib> how did you copy them?
<jrib> or how are you accessing the other machine?
<JonathanElli1> I dont want anything more to do with windows. By using drag and drop in file manager
<JonathanElli1> The two machines are on the same subnet. I forgot to mention I mapped the ip address of the desktop to "desktop" in hosts on the laptop
<JonathanElli1> But if you have to go, I can try to get to the bottom of that one another day since I have succesfully copied all the files I need to the laptop. I am very familar with windows networking but there are some peculiarities of ip in linux that I dont know yet
<JonathanElli1> Thanks very very much for all your help
<jrib> JonathanElli1: I don't see what happened right away.  You could always repose the question in #ubuntu.
<jrib> no problem, good night
<JonathanElli1> Goodnight - sorry morning
<jrib> :)
<visualdeception> are we still having our weekly meeting??
<Heartsbane> I am planning on it
<Heartsbane> I don't know where everyone else is
<visualdeception> ok
<visualdeception> i have seen zelut twittering, so I assume he is around somewhere
<Heartsbane> anyone seen pleia2?
<Heartsbane> visualdeception: guess we were the only two who remembered to show
<visualdeception> nice
<visualdeception> Zelut: ping
<visualdeception> pleia2, ping
<Heartsbane> visualdeception: next time we will set them a hiveminder
<Heartsbane> :)
<visualdeception> lol one got created yesterday
<pleia2> hey
<visualdeception> i was just going through the tasks
<Heartsbane> pleia2: hey 2 U
<visualdeception> hey pleia2 how goes it
<pleia2> it goes
<Heartsbane> visualdeception: what did you get as purposed slogans because I saw one on the mailing list that was good
<visualdeception> i think the only ones were on the mailing list....
<visualdeception> if we can get a consensus on one I'll work on getting it finished up/cleaned up
<Heartsbane> I liked Ubuntu Classroom - Learn something new every day, or ubuntu classroom - tweak it yourself
<visualdeception> ok
<visualdeception> any other feedback?
<Heartsbane> That is just me, maybe take all the submissions and put them in a list send it out the group since many of them are not here
<visualdeception> http://linux.dudenhofer.net/ubuntuclassroom.png
<visualdeception> there is the base image
<pleia2> I like the "learn something new every day" one too - not overly fond of the "tweak" one since I think it comes off as a bit nerdy
<visualdeception> ok, i think I can handle that
<Heartsbane> I guess we make a quorum 3 votes for 'learn something new everyday'
<visualdeception> lol
<Heartsbane> pleia2: any word from Belinda Lopez?
<pleia2> Heartsbane: nope :\
<Heartsbane> I take it also no word from Jono either?
<Heartsbane> most likely because of LUG Radio Live?
<pleia2> possibly, they're both there
<Heartsbane> who is going? I am planning on going
<pleia2> I did get a note from one of the UOW organizers though, he sent out a call for sessions to all of us who had done them in the past
<Heartsbane> nice, so I would imagine there is some progress there
<pleia2> I forwarded the email to Zelut in case he wanted to follow up, but ..
<Heartsbane> What did you mean 'they're both there'?
<Heartsbane> ya but ...
<pleia2> Jono and Dinda are both involved with LUG Radio Live
<pleia2> "We've begun planning the next Ubuntu Open Week. Right now we have
<pleia2> April 28 to May 3rd penciled in as the dates."
<Heartsbane> Oh I didn't know Dinda was involved
<visualdeception> do we know who is handling open week?
<pleia2> Jorge Castro is the one who sent out the email
<pleia2> I don't know him
<Zelut> sorry, had to tend to the baby
<Zelut> I know Jorge.. I can talk to him
<Heartsbane> Isn't that Jono's counterpart/assistant to Jono
<Zelut> Heartsbane: yeah
<Heartsbane> sorry Community Manager...
<Heartsbane> okay I guess that brings us to Classroom Guidelines, has anyone read this lately other than me?
<visualdeception> link?
<Heartsbane> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Classroom/Guidelines
<Heartsbane> I was going to start there, but the only interested in feeback about what still should apply was RyanC
<pleia2> I don't like the GUI & CLI requirement
<Heartsbane> really because?
<pleia2> people tend to do one or the other, not always easy to find an expert in both or two experts who are available and willing at the same time
<Heartsbane> I can understand that
<visualdeception> and since we are starting over again, we will probably be recruiting people to teach rather than waiting on volunteers
 * pleia2 nods
<pleia2> I think in general the guidelines were there back in the day for the off chance that someone did volunteer and wanted some instructions (there was a fair amount of recruiting and in house teaching then too)
<Heartsbane> other than that, anyone feel that anything needs to be changed
<pleia2> I think we might consider changing the 1.2 section at some point - but leave modifying that until we have some experience as to what works
<pleia2> 1.2.1 that is
<Heartsbane> in what way, are you saying that +m to the channel probably won't be necessary, or atleast at the start?
<pleia2> yeah, or the way of asking questions could be loosened up somehow
<Heartsbane> okay
<pleia2> UOW tends not to set +m unless requested, and then the lesson people can always /msg the ops to change channel settings if things get out of hand, or they want freer conversation
<Heartsbane> Usually every UOW I have seen is +m, but we will see how it goes
<Heartsbane> okay I will make those adjustments, as well as work on incooperating it nicely into the front page, show it off next meeting :)
<visualdeception> cool
<Heartsbane> Lets go back to Logo/Slogan review for a second since we have 1 more now
<Heartsbane> is Christer still out there?
<Heartsbane> guess not, visualdeception lets just go with 'learn something new everyday'
<Heartsbane> make a submission to the mailing list so everyone can have their input
<Heartsbane> that would be my suggestion
<visualdeception> i can handle that
<Heartsbane> give it a week, and then if that idea floats, we sail on it
<pleia2> sounds good
<visualdeception> ok
<Heartsbane> I guy RyanC is still working a blootbot/mootbot/waytomanykindabots solution
<Heartsbane> we have a blootbot variant in my LoCo channel and I love it
<pleia2> solution for?
<Heartsbane> factoids, editing 's/soltion/solutions/g'/reminders
<Heartsbane> I don't know, I was hoping to hear more about the idea
<pleia2> ok
<Heartsbane> pleia2: it was coded by Tim Riker, a Debian Dev
<Heartsbane> I know you are still use Debian or so I have read
<pleia2> yeah, and I'm a package maintainer
<Heartsbane> I don't know if you know his name
<pleia2> what does the bot do in your loco channel exactly?
<Heartsbane> onjoin reminders, factoids, logging, editting typos
<pleia2> I see
<Heartsbane> that is all I have ever seen it do, I just want to hear RyanC ideas about what he wanted to do with it
 * pleia2 nods
<Heartsbane> so I guess that is still postponed
<Heartsbane> Last item, has anyone contacted anyone to present other than US Teams
<Zelut> i have not
<Zelut> looks like i lost connection for 10min in there.  I'm going to have to get the logs later :(
<Heartsbane> any ideas? desktop? gasp? exaile? KDE? any thoughts?
<pleia2> I think the Bug Squashing Team would be particularly open to giving classes
<Heartsbane> maybe a idea by First Week in April ... really cause I would really like that
<Heartsbane> Anyone want to handle that?
<pleia2> what, coming up with ideas on what teams to contact?
<Heartsbane> Yes, or contacting some teams because eventually we are going to have to contact someone, because I don't think they are going to contact us
<Heartsbane> Well I guess I will type this up, and post it tonight
<Heartsbane> later
<pleia2> thanks Heartsbane
<visualdeception> thanks!
#ubuntu-classroom 2009-03-26
<bodhi_zazen> hello everyone :)
<bodhi_zazen> anyone here for the security Q&A
 * HymnToLife is here
<bodhi_zazen> 'lo HymnToLife :)
<bodhi_zazen> I hope it is more then just you and I :)
#ubuntu-classroom 2009-03-27
<bodhi_zazen> 'lo everyone :)
 * Hobbsee is here & watching
<bodhi_zazen> I am hoping this session can be more interactive then the last ;)
<bodhi_zazen> Otherwise I was going to discuss a little on encryption
<HymnToLife> sounds like fun
<bodhi_zazen> Here is the pastebin from 2 weeks ago
<bodhi_zazen> http://paste.ubuntu.com/133993/
<bodhi_zazen> we covered some of the basics and I demoed apparmor in a shared ssh session
<Snova> bodhi_zazen: I tried to log in just now, got errors regarding screen profiles.
<bodhi_zazen> which I can do again if you wish
<bodhi_zazen> yes Snova , the shared screen session is kaput at the moment, but I can fix it if you wish
<bodhi_zazen> I think ;)
<bodhi_zazen> I updated the system for ecryptfs, and it borked the shared screen session
<bodhi_zazen> OK, try to join the shared session Snova ;)
<bodhi_zazen> sorry this was not working
<DasEi> bodhi_zazen: do you have the link of the last session ( I missed ?)
<bodhi_zazen> Let me ask if anyone has any questions then ?
<bodhi_zazen> DasEi: I do not know off the top of my head where the logs are
<bodhi_zazen> I can find them
<bodhi_zazen> cprofitt: do you know ?
<Snova> Still broken.
<bodhi_zazen> :(
<bodhi_zazen> too bad
<cprofitt> know what?
<bodhi_zazen> I can try one more thing ..
<bodhi_zazen> cprofitt: where logs of these sessions are posted ?
<cprofitt> the logs should be on the wiki page
<cprofitt> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BeginnersTeam/FocusGroups/Education/Events
<cprofitt> I did not get any for your last session though bodhi_zazen
<bodhi_zazen> oic, lol
<HymnToLife> bodhi_zazen: I have a question
<bodhi_zazen> please HymnToLife :)
<HymnToLife> should I use DSA or RSA for my SSH keys? *evil grin*
<bodhi_zazen> lol
<bodhi_zazen> to be honest I am not sure it matters
<bodhi_zazen> That is like asking DROP or REJECT with iptables
<bodhi_zazen> If you use RSA (I think) use 1024 bits (whick is now default)
<bodhi_zazen> do you have a preference ?
<bodhi_zazen> try again Snova ;)
<bodhi_zazen> Lets talk a bit about encryption then ;)
<bodhi_zazen> do people know encryption options on Ubuntu ?
<Snova> bodhi_zazen: Looks like the same thing again.
<bodhi_zazen> kk Snova :(
<bodhi_zazen> thanks
<HymnToLife> bodhi_zazen: I prefer RSA
<bodhi_zazen> yes, in general I do too
<HymnToLife> DSA has been developed by the NSA, and they have had shady practices
<bodhi_zazen> it seems 70% prefer RSA
<HymnToLife> also, since SSH-2 uses DSA only for host keys encryption
<bodhi_zazen> Encryption options on Ubuntu are LUKS and ecryptfs
<HymnToLife> using is also for user keys is kind of putting all your eggs in the same basket
<HymnToLife> using it*
<bodhi_zazen> One can use truecrypt and other tools such as encryptfs and gpg
<bodhi_zazen> To install an encrypted system, meaning / and swap are encrypted , use the Alternate CD
<bodhi_zazen> By default this will give you a /boot partition, and LVM + LUKS
<bodhi_zazen> Post install or during the install, if you wish, you can use ecryptfs to encrypt your /home/user directory, swap, or a private (or other) directories
<bodhi_zazen> I posted a how to on ecryptfs here : http://bodhizazen.net/Tutorials/Ecryptfs/
<bodhi_zazen> It still needs a bit of work, but the basic information is there
<bodhi_zazen> encryption is used basically to protect your personal data if your laptop or hard drive is stolden
<bodhi_zazen> IMO things like password protecting yoru BIOS and GRUB is a minor deterrent if someone has physical access
<bodhi_zazen> Some people like those tools, and yes it may stop a casual intruder, but they are easily defeated
<HymnToLife> also, if it comes down to it, some encryption tools can make encryption plausibly deniable
<bodhi_zazen> The disadvantage of encryption is there is a, IMO, minor performance hit
<bodhi_zazen> +1 HymnToLife
<HymnToLife> meaning that the police, government, etc. cannot *prove* you have encrypted stuff
<bodhi_zazen> he he he ...
<bodhi_zazen> Encryption can be defeated by a $ hammer applied to the solar plexus >:)
<bodhi_zazen> * $10
<bodhi_zazen> Sometime you need to apply the hammer a few times for it to work
<bodhi_zazen> lol
<bodhi_zazen> The other disadvantage of encryption would be if you lost your password or wanted to re-install preserving /home for example
<bodhi_zazen> It can be done, but none of the installers will preserve /home automatically , even if it is on a separate partition and so you would need to take casre to configure the encryption manually post install
<bodhi_zazen> Frankly, IMO, it is easier to back up you data, re-install with the defaults, and then restore your data
<bodhi_zazen>  /end rant on encryption
<bodhi_zazen> :)
<DasEi> also a more complicared access in case of harddrive-trouble can be added to the disadvantages
<Hobbsee> actually, if you set a partition as /home, the installer won't try to auto-format it
<Hobbsee> or at least, not on recent ubuntu releases.
<bodhi_zazen> Oh, one more thing, you can use keys with some encryption tools to automate decryption
<bodhi_zazen> No it will not Hobbsee , but I will not set up LUKS or encryptfs either
<Hobbsee> that's true
<bodhi_zazen> so post install you may not be able to decrypt it
<bodhi_zazen> :(
<Hobbsee> that may not still be true for jaunty, btw.
<bodhi_zazen> You need to take care with encryptfs if you encrypted /home/user_name because the information was stored on the root partition
<maxb> Isn't all the "setup" for ecryptfs contained within the homedir anyway?
<bodhi_zazen> maxb: It depends on how you setup encryptfs
<Snova> Is encryption only to protect if somebody gets physical access to the HD?
<bodhi_zazen> If you used encryptfs-setup-private you will be OK
<maxb> bodhi_zazen: Are you talking about ecryptfs? If so, spell it's name right to avoid confusing us!
<maxb> oops. I fail at apostrophe usage
<bodhi_zazen> If you encrypted your home directory during installation, no , the key is on the root partition and linked back to $HOME
<HymnToLife> Snova: in the case of ecryptfs, yes
<bodhi_zazen> so you will loose the config info if you install over the top of root
<HymnToLife> however, there are other kinds of encryption
<bodhi_zazen> sorry, yes ecryptfs
<bodhi_zazen> :p
<HymnToLife> Snova: for example, you can encrypts files using GnuPG to send them by email
<HymnToLife> (or to store them for later use)
<maxb> Ah, right, I'm only using ecryptfs in private-subdir setup, because I disagree that encrypting the entire homedir makes sense
<bodhi_zazen> If your data is sensitive enough to encrypt -
<Snova> I am fairly familiar with encryption in general, just wondering if there is any point to an encrypted *hard drive* (should have mentioned that previously) beyond physical access.
<bodhi_zazen> 1. Know that if the data is decrypted, ie you mounted your Private directory or LUKS partition, or truecrypt
<bodhi_zazen> the data is available to the root user
<HymnToLife> Snova: that the only one I can think of right now, but it's a pretty big one
<bodhi_zazen> or any other users allowed by your permissions
<HymnToLife> especially nowadays when laptops are getting smaller and smaller, thus easier to lose/steal
<bodhi_zazen> and 2. you should take care to encrypt your back ups as well :p
<bodhi_zazen> Snova: Only the paranoid would encrypt the entire installation
<Snova> bodhi_zazen: Any amount of it, really.
<bodhi_zazen> This would be to prevent someone for say installing a rootkit from a live CD
<HymnToLife> bodhi_zazen: there are many good reasons to be paranoid nowadays
<bodhi_zazen> The two potential vulnerabilities with encryption are :
<DasEi> and even then you'll need extra partitions or containers to avoid online-access
<bodhi_zazen> 1. Someone , in theory, could recover the key from RAM
<bodhi_zazen> 2. Your /boot partition is not encrypted so someone could replace your kernel
<bodhi_zazen> +1 HymnToLife re paranoia
<bodhi_zazen> Snova: for others , encrypting your private directory in /home , or a data partition, or removable device may be sufficient
<bodhi_zazen> I guess my point is to raise awareness of the vulnerabilities of physical access and encryption as the best solution, IMO
<HymnToLife> s/best/only/
<HymnToLife> encryption is based on math, math never cheats ;)
<bodhi_zazen> Well, you could wipe the drive or smash it very fast as they are breaking down your door ;)
<bodhi_zazen> melt it
<bodhi_zazen> questions on encryption ?
<bodhi_zazen> hint - this is your chance to ask questions
<bodhi_zazen> It sounds as if we have a few people here now who use encryption
<HymnToLife> no, I don't!
<HymnToLife> you can't prove anything!
<bodhi_zazen> Guilty by association
<bodhi_zazen> Off with his head
<DasEi> I just wonder how f.e. us-gpg needs a backdoor for nsa-related stuff, it is on ubuntu ?
<bodhi_zazen> We could talk a bit about iptables, root kits, antivirus
<bodhi_zazen> I know antivirus is boring to some, but it is a FAQ on the forums
<bodhi_zazen> Did anybody take a look at AppArmor ?
<DasEi> too less, let's talk
<HymnToLife> DasEi: if I understand your question, it's because the NSA doesn't like it when people use encryption they can't break :p
<bodhi_zazen> too less ?
<HymnToLife> well, they won't admit it, of course, but there's strong suspicion that the NSA-approve"d cryptosystems are the ones they can break
<DasEi> I recognized appamor f.e. restricts file access of an apache, but are not familiar with it
<HymnToLife> (hence why I don't use DSA for my SSH keys)
<DasEi> HymnToLife: pm ? don't stop bod..
<bodhi_zazen> no, this is an open discussion
<HymnToLife> well, you asked the question here, so I answer here :p
<bodhi_zazen> Or at least I hope so
<bodhi_zazen> DasEi: Apparmor can be used , and is most often used to "confine" network aware applications
<HymnToLife> or really any application
<DasEi> k, what I saw when mentioning harddrive encryption where different solutions ( I'm german), and from the same app, there are different releases, some of them are not legal in us
<bodhi_zazen> It has not been as popular as it *should* be , IMO
<bodhi_zazen> I posed a how to here : http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1008906
<HymnToLife> but the network-related ones are the one it makes most sense confining
<HymnToLife> since they basically process untrusted data all the time
<bodhi_zazen> and I am starting to post some example profiles here : http://bodhizazen.net/aa-profiles/
<bodhi_zazen> Looking for contributions in face
<bodhi_zazen> *fact
<bodhi_zazen> Apparmor vs SElinux is another issue sometimes debated
<bodhi_zazen> Apparmor is easier to learn, but IMO takes more time to maintain
<bodhi_zazen> For example , you need to revise your profile when firefox is updated from 3.0.6 to 3.0.7
<bodhi_zazen> ;)
<bodhi_zazen> You have to keep an eye on apparmor, and there are no GUI tools in Ubuntu, although SUSE has some
<bodhi_zazen> Any questions / comments please jump in >:)
<bodhi_zazen> Shifting gears a little ...
<bodhi_zazen> Antivirus
<bodhi_zazen> IMO the biggest problem with antivirus is the sheer numbers of false postitives
<bodhi_zazen> If you use antivirus and you do not want to simply delete detected files, you will have to do a fair amount of detective work
<bodhi_zazen> Example : http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1106160
<bodhi_zazen> Snova: can you try to connect again please ?
<Snova> Ok. :)
<bodhi_zazen> nvr mind, it is still borked
<Snova> bodhi_zazen: Yep. :)
<bodhi_zazen> I had to update for ecryptfs , but it broke screen
<HymnToLife> well, you can always experiment with AA by yourself in a virtual machine (so you don't get locked off your real system)
<HymnToLife> the basic concepts are really not hard to grasp
<HymnToLife> Novell advertises it as requiring only 1-2 days of training, I don't think they're very far from the truth
<bodhi_zazen> I agree with that
<bodhi_zazen> I would say I am still learning, but it took me about 4 hours to become comfortable with it
<bodhi_zazen> The advantage of apparmor, it has the potential to stop zero day exploits
<bodhi_zazen> We have 5 minutes left in this session ;)
<bodhi_zazen> I will run a session on this channel, same time, every 1-2 weeks depending in interest
<bodhi_zazen> From last week there was the suggestion we discuss permissions
<bodhi_zazen> Now I know most of you know basic permissions, but we can review sticky bits and if you wish acl
<DasEi> I#ve got a question to the initialization of apparmor
<HymnToLife> basic SSH configuration might be a good topic too
<HymnToLife> I'm thinking about Issues like that: http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1107057
<DasEi> what does this 'connecting to repository mean ? isn't this a local mechanism ?
<HymnToLife> for those who want a bit more control than basic usernames/passwords
<HymnToLife> DasEi: it means downloading a few pre-made profiles for common applications, IIRC
<bodhi_zazen> DasEi: and HymnToLife we could have sessions on apparmor or ssh in more depth
<bodhi_zazen> I happen to like ssh ;)
<DasEi> HymnToLife: and it does for every app Iagain ?
<bodhi_zazen> DasEi: AppArmor was developed my Novell
<HymnToLife> but now they fired all the aa devs :p
<bodhi_zazen> And I think the idea was to have a central repository for profiles
<DasEi> deeper sessions.. gotta get coffeine.. great
<HymnToLife> I heard some of them were working for Microsoft now
<bodhi_zazen> for things such as say apache or what not
<bodhi_zazen> I do not think it has been developed, but it still comes up when you generate a profile
<bodhi_zazen> aa was then added to Ubuntu and we will need to see how much it is used / developed
<bodhi_zazen> Otherwise we will be back to SELinux :p
<HymnToLife> Mandriva uses AA too
<DasEi> sry when bein annoying; apparmor follows an given app in the inital , then asks additional quests and then creates the profile, which can be altered manually again, so no need for external request..
<HymnToLife> I think that's all
<bodhi_zazen> no DasEi
<bodhi_zazen> Most profiles need to be personalized anyways
<bodhi_zazen> PCLinuxOS ?
<bodhi_zazen> I have not tried that lately, but I though they were Mandriva based.
<HymnToLife> I think so too, but I don't go in the RPM world often
<bodhi_zazen> OK, I will stay for a while if there are additional questions, otherwise 2 weeks
<bodhi_zazen> Any interest in having weekly sessions ?
<DasEi> k, reading shall heal me for now, many thanks, bodhi_zazen and all the others
<bodhi_zazen> topics : add them here : https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BeginnersTeam/FocusGroups/Education/Proposals
<bodhi_zazen> put my name by the topic and I will try to announce and cover them as we go
<DasEi> bodhi_zazen: nothing bad, nice would be to follow up missed ons at http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/
<DasEi> *ones
<bodhi_zazen> In the long run the Beginners Team is hoping to do continued and more focused in depth sessions, perhaps using something such as Moodle
<bodhi_zazen> yes DasEi I thought ubuntu-classroom was going to post sessions, I will look into that
<bodhi_zazen> I do not have a way right now to log sessions
<bodhi_zazen> as I am @ work and accessing over mibbit
<DasEi> bodhi_zazen:they do, but last isn't there by now
<bodhi_zazen> We shall look into it then DasEi
<bodhi_zazen> but yes the intention is to post logs
<bodhi_zazen> and grow these sessions
<bodhi_zazen> I am hoping to spread the word and get some discussion and education going.
<DasEi> date -u was the greatest tip on UTC, writes this bold, lol
<bodhi_zazen> lol
<bodhi_zazen> Thank you everyone for coming
<DasEi> thank you for rowing
<bodhi_zazen> I shall spam channels with future meetings, but this time works out for most people, although not all
<bodhi_zazen> I hope these sessions help educate people ;)
<bodhi_zazen> we should learn from each other, some people know very much
<bodhi_zazen> we are planning to do sessions on wiki and development (packageing)
<_Purple_> hi
<_Purple_> is the Q and A still going on?
<sanzilla> hi
<sanzilla> is this is a newbie channel ?
<pleia2> sanzilla: we use this channel for hosting classes (see the /topic for our resources), you want to use #ubuntu for tech questions
<sanzilla> is other than ubunthu isn't welcome ?
<_Purple_> sanzilla, looking for a channel for newbies?
<sanzilla> yes
<_Purple_> try #ubuntuforums-beginners
<sanzilla> I mean a channel for general linux
<sanzilla> I loving the xfe windows manager and not KDE
<sanzilla> so I can't install ubunthu
<pleia2> sanzilla: xubuntu is based on xfce
<sanzilla> I will give up a try
#ubuntu-classroom 2010-03-29
<jeffster99> I have no idea what to do now
<AlanBell> hi
<AlanBell> there is no class on right now
<AlanBell> what did you want to do?
<AlanBell> Upcoming Schedule: http://is.gd/8rtIi
<jeffster99> I didn't know if it was an ongoing thing
<jeffster99> if you have a sec can I ask you a couple of things?
<AlanBell> you are probably best off finding your local team
<AlanBell> what country are you in?
<jeffster99> US
<AlanBell> ok, state?
<jeffster99> louisiana
<AlanBell> #ubuntu-us-la is your local channel
<AlanBell> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LouisianaTeam
<jeffster99> i feel pretty helpless I have been a windows user for years
<jeffster99> but the linux environment isa little overwhelming
<AlanBell> it is different in a few ways
<AlanBell> but you are a lot less helpless overall!
<jeffster99> Thank you for your help I will bother them now...LoL
<AlanBell> ok, the other channel which is good to go to if you need a pointer to find other stuff is #ubuntu
<AlanBell> but that one moves very fast and confuses me
<jeffster99> for me it will have to be baby-steps for a little bit
<AlanBell> :-)
<jeffster99> again, thanks
<AlanBell> if #ubuntu-us-la is a bit too quiet try #ubuntu-us
<jeffster99> ok
<jeffster99> btw
<jeffster99> as far as registering my nick is that done here or do I have to install a client to do it
<AlanBell> are you using the web thing?
<AlanBell> !nick
<ubottu> Your nick is how people know you on IRC. Please don't change your nicknames too often (use /nick newnick), or it creates a lot of confusion. You should also !register your nick with Freenode.
<AlanBell> !register
<ubottu> Information about registering your nickname: http://freenode.net/faq.shtml#userregistration - Type Â« /nick <nickname> Â» to select your nickname. Registration help available in #freenode
<AlanBell> to be honest I wouldn't bother just now
<jeffster99> ok
<jeffster99> #ubuntu-us-la
#ubuntu-classroom 2010-03-30
<kyleN>  core-dev?
<zubin71> do ubuntu-classroom sessions always take place in the first week of a month?
<nhandler> zubin71: No. It all depends on the session/event
<zubin71> nhandler: i have a python session in mind; about packaging. development on distutils2 is going on and it should be done by the first week of august; is it possible to take a session on that at that time?
<zubin71> nhandler: for more details about distutils please refer pep 376(accepted)
#ubuntu-classroom 2010-03-31
 * jcastro taps on the mike
<jcastro> 2 minutes!
* ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to the Ubuntu Classroom - http://wiki.ubuntu.com/Classroom || Support in #ubuntu || Upcoming Schedule: http://is.gd/8rtIi || Current Session: Adopt an Upstream - Instructor: jcastro || Questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat
<jcastro> ok, I'll give it a few more minutes for the last minute stragglers
<jcastro> wave if you plan on participating in this class please!
<jcastro> ok let's get started
<jcastro> this session is Adopt an Upstream/Package
<jcastro> I'm Jorge Castro
<jcastro> by day I work at Canonical on the Ubuntu community team
<jcastro> by night I fight crime. ( Just kidding )
<jcastro> This session is going to be for people who are interested in strengthening our relationship with upstream projects by means of doing bug work
<jcastro> So let's start off with the basics, what exactly is an "upstream"
<jcastro> if you think about it like a river it makes sense
<jcastro> there are projects out there like GNOME, KDE, Firefox, gwibber, openoffice, etc. that are independent software projects
<jcastro> what a distribution does is put all those together, add some polish, and ship it as an os that we call "Ubuntu"
<jcastro> so, these projects are what we call upstreams
<jcastro> for many of these we derive the packaging from Debian, so in a way Debian is also an upstream to us.
<jcastro> and for derivatives that build off of ubuntu, they're downstream from us, and we're their upstream
<jcastro> so it's like a big river
<jcastro> sometimes these relationships get complicated, so for most users they might not understand where the software comes from
<jcastro> so when we get bugs they might not be something Ubuntu can fix
<jcastro> but since we distribute this software, it's our responsibility to make sure that user bugs and things are reported, especially if those bugs contain a patch.
<jcastro> For major projects we have instructions on how to "forward" these bug reports.
<jcastro> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Bugs/Upstream
<jcastro> however, we have lots of users
<jcastro> and upstreams usually have finite resources
<jcastro> so what we need in abundance are people who are skilled enough to filter out the bad bugs, and ensure that upstreams are getting the high quality bug reports.
<jcastro> We purposely don't do anything like automatically forwarding bugs, because that would get out of control quickl;y
<jcastro> we need an actual human being to check each bug report and make sure it doesn't suck before considering forwarding it upstream
<jcastro> so, we created a program for people to be able to say "I want to do this!"
<jcastro> so we created Adopt a Package
<jcastro> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BugSquad/AdoptPackage
<jcastro> This is basically when someone says "I care about this program, and I want to help fix it."
<jcastro> So on this page we list programs that could use the help
<jcastro> Let me show you an example of one.
<jcastro> https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/gwibber
<jcastro> this is a program that has been getting love lately
<jcastro> and yet there are still 61 bugs in the "new" state
<jcastro> that means there are 61 opportunities to either confirm a bug, mark it a duplicate, or maybe it's not a bug at all
<jcastro> http://status.qa.ubuntu.com/qapkgstatus/gwibber
<jcastro> now if we look at this graph
<jcastro> we can see that the amount of triaged bugs is going up
<jcastro> but we can probably do a better job taking care of the "new" bugs.
<jcastro> So as you can see here this is a package that people have started to take care.
<jcastro> So really, what's required to "adopt" a package
<jcastro> Well, the one fundamental thing you really need is to care about it
<jcastro> I usually tell people to pick a program they're passionate about
<jcastro> be it your pet mp3 player or something else
<jcastro> then really you can just dive in the open bug reports.
<jcastro> many of these are low hanging fruit
<jcastro> for example as we get towards beta many people will start reporting bugs
<jcastro> but might not have enough information to be useful
<jcastro> so just by asking people to use apport or to add more detail in the bug report can be useful.
<jcastro> Remember that the more information we can have in a bug, the better
<jcastro> so if we can have people just adding more information that can save time later on when a developer is trying to solve the problem
<jcastro> also, as we get later in the betas people tend to report more duplicates
<jcastro> one can spend days just marking duplicates, so that is something you can do.
<jcastro> when you get a good quality bug report and it's been triaged
<jcastro> sometimes a developer will mention that it's probably a bug in the upstream software
<jcastro> but they might not link it to the upstream bug report
<jcastro> another possible place to help bugs is when they have patches attached
<jcastro> https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/gwibber/+patches
<jcastro> on any person, project, or package in launchpad you can add a +patches to the URL
<jcastro> and it will show you any patches that people might have attached to a bug.
<jcastro> many packages have tons of old patches that might be sitting there throughout the years or months
<jcastro> so keeping an eye on the +patches for a package is something that can be done
<jcastro> sometimes it might be old or doesn't apply
<jcastro> or sometimes it just needs some testing
<jcastro> and in some cases asking the person to push the patch upstream can be helpful
<jcastro> remember that while it's nice to fix it in ubuntu it needs to go back to the original project!
<jcastro> this is a good idea for a number of reasons
<jcastro> a) It's just the right thing to do to help improve their software
<jcastro> b) Less maintenance and delta from upstream is always a good thing
<jcastro> c) Sending it upstream fixes it for everyone long term instead of for one release of ubuntu
<jcastro> Any questions so far?
<jcastro> qense: anything to add?
<jcastro> one thing I like to do, when watching the +patches view
<jcastro> is taking note of that "age" column
<jcastro> if someone has taken the time to write a patch for something
<jcastro> and it's been sitting there for months and no one has responded, then that's pretty rude!
<jcastro> so I usually try to remind a maintainer if a patch has been rotting in lp
<jcastro> many maintainers have tons of things to do
<jcastro> so if someone does that filtering for them that gets the important things filtered from the chaff, then that's more time they can spend to help make ubuntu better,
<jcastro> any questions so far? That's basically it
<jcastro> as always, feel free to ask someone in #ubuntu-bugs if you have questions on how to be a better adopter
<jcastro> and thanks for your time!
<charlie-tca> Question: does this apply only to packages in main?
<leftyfb> oh, I thought the questions were asked in the other room
<leftyfb> damn
<leftyfb> I don't think this went well
<jcastro> ah sorry
<jcastro> let's start over with the questions
<charlie-tca> they were
<jcastro> leftyfb | who do we get to push patches and how?
<jcastro> so usually this might be a maintainer
<jcastro> but it can also be a team
<jcastro> so for example, let's say you're looking at patches in gqibber
<jcastro> er, gwibber
<jcastro> https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/gwibber/+patches
<jcastro> so in this case I would ping the maintainer, ken-vandine
<jcastro> but, we know that gwibber is on the desktop by default now
<jcastro> so we can probably poke the team
<jcastro> so let's say ken get's hit by a bus and doesn't respond
<jcastro> (poor ken)
<jcastro> in that case we could ping someone on the ubuntu desktop team, by either using their mailing list or irc channel
<jcastro> charlie-tca | QUESTION: are we only applying this to packages in main?
<jcastro> this actually applies to everything in the archive
<jcastro> in fact, it's those odd packages in universe that not many people use that usually need the most help!
<charlie-tca> Okay
<jcastro> this happens to me sometimes
<jcastro> I'll meet someone and they'll say "no one cares about my cli mp3 player written in lisp!"
<jcastro> but when you show people how to forward bugs to the right place they usually figure it  out
<jcastro> actually, now that you asked that it brings up another possible place to collaborate, debian.
<jcastro> when you push a patch upstream this benefits debian as well
<jcastro> however with certain fixes
<jcastro> like packaging fixes, it makes sense to ensure that that fix gets to debian
<jcastro> in fact you'll see many sponsors ask if the patch has been sent to debian as part of the sponsorship process.
<jcastro> which is a good thing
<jcastro> so we can use tools like "submittodebian" for things like this
<jcastro> http://udd.debian.org/cgi-bin/ubuntu_usertag.cgi
<jcastro> when we do that we tag the bugs
<jcastro> so in this report you can see that we've forwarded 1557 bugs to debian
<jcastro> 1265 have some form of patch attached
<jcastro> so as you can see we can do some good there by keeping debian in the loop for patches
<jcastro> however for some packages it may just be appropriate to send it upstream and debian/ubuntu just pick it up the next sync
<jcastro> any other questions?
<charlie-tca> thanks
<leftyfb> sorry one more
<jcastro> hah, I've been looking for a reason to use the ultimate debian database for something
<charlie-tca> yes, I looked at claws-mail. There is a developer from claws-mail subscribed to the bugs. It is still a candidate for adoptapackage?
<leftyfb> what if it's in Fenian and sourceforge?
<jcastro> don't be sorry I am here to please!
<leftyfb> submit to both?
<jcastro> which project?
<leftyfb> gstm
<jcastro> I submit to whichever one upstream uses most.
<jcastro> if you're unsure I fire off an email to a developer
<jcastro> because sometimes they have different requirements
<jcastro> for example, some want patches submitted a certain way
<leftyfb> the sf project seems to be dead
<jcastro> some want patches in bugzilla, and some want them on a mailing list instead.
<jcastro> heh, no surprise there!
<jcastro> submit it to where upstream is looking the most.
<jcastro> this can change too, it's not totally uncommon when I might mail someone and ask
<jcastro> and it ends up they abandoned that bug tracker or something
<leftyfb> Fenian being the upstream right ?
<leftyfb> deviant sorry
<leftyfb> iPhone and driving :)
<jcastro> hah, I am looking for it now
<jcastro> hmm, all the data in the package points to SF
<leftyfb> right but emmet told me upstream is debian I think
<jcastro> so probably abandoned upstream?
<leftyfb> no clue
<jcastro> yeah, the last release says 2006 on the tarball
<jcastro> heh, this appears to be one of those cases where you might wake up one day and be the upstream. :p
<jcastro> charlie-tca: yeah
<jcastro> charlie-tca: usually if an upstream cares enough to watch distro bugs then he probably needs help doing it
<jcastro> charlie-tca: usually just asking him for help can be fruitful there.
<charlie-tca> works for me, I guess I'll grab that one then
<jcastro> you can split up things, especially for large packages
<jcastro> or maybe you can tackle a certain class of bugs for him or something
<jcastro> charlie-tca: the "idea" I try to convey to upstreams is, when they have a problem that they have "our guy over at ubuntu"
<jcastro> charlie-tca: sometimes it could be as simple as just answering questions for them
<charlie-tca> It's just a handful of bugs for claws-mail. I will get with him on them.
<jcastro> about things like the release schedule
<leftyfb> ok, now i'm on a real computer :)
<jcastro> or "I have a security fix I need to get out to my users, where do I go?"
<jcastro> and then you point them to the security page or something
<charlie-tca> A lot of the non-main packages seem to just sit, with the bugs getting missed completely
<jcastro> with alot of those smaller upstreams it's a good idea to remind them when freezes are
<jcastro> because sometimes they are in debian too
<leftyfb> ok, so jcastro  ... how would one find out who is the upsteam? By looking at apt-cache policy for the package? In gstm's case it says sourceforge. Should we then be just checking debian just in case? And in this case, hasn't been touched since 2006 so the upstream is???  Now part of ubuntu since all further development has been done with us?
<jcastro> so I tell them like "hey, freeze is on this date, so if you want to get a release in for Lucid you should probably target around this date"
<jcastro> leftyfb: ok, so this is what I do
<jcastro> apt-get source gstm
<jcastro> then cd into that dir
<jcastro> in there most programs have an AUTHORS file and a ChangeLog file
<jcastro> http://pastebin.com/DhQwaxy0
<jcastro> is what I see in the authors
<jcastro> the ChangeLog file in the root is usually the upstream changelog
<jcastro> the debian/changelog will be the person that put it in debian/ubuntu
<ClassBot> There are are 10 minutes remaining in the current session.
<jcastro> leftyfb: so, I've done this a bunch of times
<jcastro> and let me share with you what I think will happen
<jcastro> you'll email those two guys and they'll say "oh yeah, I remember when I worked on that, people still use that? awesome!"
<jcastro> and then you'll ask what's up with a new release or something
<jcastro> and next thing you know, you are the upstream maintainer for gstm!
<leftyfb> Original-Maintainer: Ryan Niebur <ryanryan52@gmail.com>
<leftyfb> what about that from apt-cache show
<leftyfb> ?
<leftyfb> how does he fit in?
<jcastro> that's likely the guy who put it in Debian and now maintains it
<jcastro> he probably contacted the two guys from AUTHORS
<leftyfb> so I should be contacting him first?
<jcastro> yeah
<jcastro> I would say something like
<leftyfb> ok
<jcastro> "hey I saw you in the maintainers field, are you just maintaining this in debian or are you doing upstream work?"
<jcastro> "and if so, is the SF project dead or what?"
<leftyfb> ok, makes sense
<jcastro> there are plenty of packages maintained like that in debian
<jcastro> so in that case you could just file the bugs directly in the debian BTS
<jcastro> if he's not looking at the SF bugs then the homepage field in the package needs to be updated
<ClassBot> There are are 5 minutes remaining in the current session.
<jcastro> charlie-tca: I see claws has a ppa too
<jcastro> nice
<charlie-tca> I'm learning
<leftyfb> still a lot to learn with all this
<jcastro> yeah sometimes they need help setting up PPA
<leftyfb> but i'd love to get the package all cleaned up and up to date
<jcastro> leftyfb: you can always just ask questions
<jcastro> but if you can have a good relationship with the debian guy that's always ideal
<leftyfb> #ubuntu-bugs <~~ in there?
<jcastro> sure
<jcastro> when I am not around you can always ping qense
<jcastro> ok I need to eat dinner, any last questions!
<leftyfb> thanks
<jcastro> good thing I looked in -chat, sorry about missing it the first time!
<jcastro> I was like "man bummer, no one came to my class", lol
<charlie-tca> heh, Thank you very much for doing this
<migul> jcastro, thanks for this session
<migul> still learning...
<migul> :-)
<jcastro> don't worry, with openweek coming up in a few weeks we'll do it again
* ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to the Ubuntu Classroom - http://wiki.ubuntu.com/Classroom || Support in #ubuntu || Upcoming Schedule: http://is.gd/8rtIi
#ubuntu-classroom 2010-04-01
* ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to the Ubuntu Classroom - http://wiki.ubuntu.com/Classroom || Support in #ubuntu || Upcoming Schedule: http://is.gd/8rtIi || Event: Packaging Training Session - Current Session: TBD - Instructor: TBD || Questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat
<ClassBot> There are are 10 minutes remaining in the current session.
<ClassBot> There are are 5 minutes remaining in the current session.
* ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to the Ubuntu Classroom - http://wiki.ubuntu.com/Classroom || Support in #ubuntu || Upcoming Schedule: http://is.gd/8rtIi
<kusum> Hardik: u from ?
#ubuntu-classroom 2010-04-02
<tony1985> when i run the EMC2 software on my PC there are parallel lines in the monitor...is there any soultion to this ?
<tony1985> http://omploader.org/vd3M1/Screenshot.png
#ubuntu-classroom 2010-04-03
<RaMcHiP> is this a safe place to learn ubuntu without having your intelligence insulted because your a noob and dont know your doing and trying to learn
<cliffhanger> Does any1 know if I can upgrade a 32bit version of ubuntu 2 64bit without doing a fresh install? (looking 4 a way so that I don't lose my programs)
<jpds> cliffhanger: I think it is possible, but I won't bother with the effort.
<jpds> cliffhanger: What are your programs? Packages you've installed?
<cliffhanger> I've installed a lot of packages... so i wont detail, basically had to waste a week getting the right packages to install on my machine to get audio and wlan, etc... some1 recommended I use dpkg or Synaptic and then later download them on another computer. how does this work?
<cliffhanger> is there any way to sort of make a list of all my installed packages so that it can download them all in another computer, or something similar?? This might help me...
<jpds> cliffhanger: "dpkg --get-selections" does exactly that.
<jpds> Well, that will output all the packages you have installed.
<cliffhanger> Thanks that's great, but how do I later download them?
<jpds> To reinstall all the packages in that list, you just have to run: dpkg --selections < fileyousavedthelisttoo.txt and then run: sudo apt-get dselect-upgrade
<jpds> cliffhanger: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/ReinstallingSamePackages
<cliffhanger> Thanks jpds, I'll go try it right now.
<jpds> (You will need a net connection to redownload the packages).
<cliffhanger> jpds: There's so many that it won't display the whole list, it dosnt fit in the terminal apparently, it just shows from the M down to the Z packages.
<jpds> cliffhanger: Try: dpkg --get-selections > installed_packages.txt
<jpds> cliffhanger: That will put the output into a new file: installed_packages.txt
<cliffhanger> It worked! Thanks Again!
#ubuntu-classroom 2010-04-04
<Jester86> hello?
<Jester86> wolter, you in here
<wolter> hi
<Jester86> hey man
<wolter> ok, so what output do you get when you try to pass it to -o password_stdin?
<Jester86> alright so I've got to the point where I can use zenity to get any input I want and either pass it directly from zenity to sudo or i can use zenity to set a variable and then use that variable for password input?
<Jester86> I used the -o password-stdin option but it still prompted me for a password
<wolter> well, to be honest I wouldn't know, but maybe there is a script already that can do something like that--passing a variable to stdin
<Jester86> and I've tried sshfs -o username=USERNAME,password=PASSWORD
<wolter> use no comma
<wolter> just a space
<Jester86> I saw a demo that show'd a , b4
<Jester86> would a , really end it.. I'd assume it'd still work if it were going to
<wolter> oh maybe it works like that then
<wolter> its just that normally when you pass parameters to a command line app you just separate with space
<Jester86> sshfs -o username=jesse password=$pw jesse@75.187.75.222:/ /mnt/sshfs/mythbox0/
<Jester86> tried that line and it still prompted me for the password
<Jester86> and I know that the variable $pw is equal to my password
<Jester86> i think it may be a configuration thing with sshfs that looks for actual typing
<Jester86> I just wonder if thats something on the server or client side
<Jester86> whats this stdin thing tho.. can you give me an example line of how to use it.. I cant seem to understand its functionality
<Jester86> granted I've been up for quite a while now so that could be part of the issue lol
<wolter> Jester86, try it with "<your password" instead of $pw to see if the problem is there
<wolter> if it is there, try "${pw}"
<Jester86> that doesnt work either.. already tried just the password, will try again tho
<Jester86> yeah no dice
<Jester86> it wants me to type it still :-\
<Jester86> now I'm sure I could use a serial port to ps2 connector and fake the keyboard input ;) .. heard of ppl doing that to control their cable boxes for mythtv tho lol
<wolter> heres it! http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=135113
<wolter> I think
<wolter> look at post #2
<Jester86> scientific atlantic has a usb port on the front and you can control the channels via keyboard
<Jester86> sorry back to the topic
<wolter> thats why I love python
<Jester86> haha
<Jester86> I think I crossed this one earlier and forgot about it
<wolter> Anyway, you think you can manage yourself with that?
<Jester86> yeah b4 I wanted to stay bash but I think I may have to go interracial lol
<wolter> lol
<wolter> interracial ftw!
<Jester86> ftw?
<wolter> for the win
<Jester86> sorry its late..  don't know my txt simples lol
<Jester86> ohhh
<Jester86> lol
<wolter> yeah its late here too
<Jester86> yeah its 6:30am here :-0
<wolter> just past asleep on the TV and now its almost 500 here
<wolter> lol
<wolter> where do you live?
<Jester86> haha
<Jester86> Ohio :(
<Jester86> the lamest state in creation.. well next to kansas lol
<wolter> lol
<Jester86> I'm looking at a field engineers job in ND tho.. :-\
<Jester86> just graduated school and trying to figure out what to do
<wolter> ND?
<Jester86> North Dakota
<wolter> oh wll, that seems puzzling enough
<Jester86> yeah lol
<wolter> I'm just starting my mech. engineering career
<Jester86> I've been interning at a place that wants to keep me (building design), but I've got an interview at wright patterson for a cs/ceg type roll working w/ super computers
<Jester86> and I'm talking to Raytheon about that job in ND
<Jester86> I'd originally begun talking to Raytheon about trying to get on the ice too ... antarctica lol
<Jester86> what do you do?
<Jester86> wait.. a mech E using linux? .. most of my mech E friends don't even like turning computers on lol
<wolter> lol
<wolter> really?
<wolter> I think we need to learn to program even
<Jester86> yeah most of them would rather be in the shop.. not to say I don't miss working in a machine shop
<Jester86> yeah its def not going to hurt you to know more
<Jester86> I mean shoot.. I went to school for EE but I'm considering getting more into the network admin type work lol
<Jester86> granted the military's super computing grid is pretty attractive
<Jester86> pulls like 13gigs / second and thats transferring data across the US
<Jester86> but they also have manyyy fiber lines connecting those locations
<wolter> REALLY?
<wolter> Shit I didn't know that speed was possible!!!
<wolter> Fucking army lol
<Jester86> lol well its the AFRL to be technical
<Jester86> lol
<Jester86> zenity is a nice little tool...
<Jester86> think I'm going to have to do more w/ it
<Jester86> i need to learn some perl too
<Jester86> my buddy wrote perlmon .. its like cpu-z for linux
<Jester86> I bet he could learn me some perl
<wolter> cpu-z?
<wolter> and why perl?
<Jester86> think he was learning perl and wanted a challenge lol
<Jester86> and cpu-z gets system information from your computer
<Jester86> get cpu info, ram, graphix, ect
<Jester86> do a little googling for perlmon, sure you'll find it quick
<wolter> oh
<Jester86> what is GSSAPIAuthentication
<Jester86> lol
<wolter> hm
<wolter> who knows
<wolter> lol
<wolter> anyway, I think you'd rather learn python
<wolter> theres libs and libs and LIBS for it
<Jester86> i know.. been researching it .. seems like its worthless
<Jester86> yeah I know, I just feel like I'd be defeated if I back down lol
<Jester86> but I may lol
<wolter> http://paste.ubuntu.com/409011/
<wolter> check that
<Jester86> crapppp  I remember reading about a package for ssh that listen and make sure the password being inputted was typed .. I wonder if I installed that on that server :-\
<Jester86> now that is pretty damn nice.. lol
<wolter> lol
<wolter> I just plagiated it from that post in ubuntu
<wolter> and added the os.popen
<Jester86> yeah
<Jester86> I may have to use it.. I cant seem to figure out why she's not taking the zenity --entry
<Jester86> my dog is layin beside me and every once in a while wakes up and looks at me like are we going to bed yet
<Jester86> lol
<wolter> lol
<wolter> ROFL
<wolter> sometimes dogs are so loyal its funny
<wolter> just saw the movie Hachi yesterday
<Jester86> yeah I know.. esp german shepherds
<wolter> its sad though
<wolter> really?
<Jester86> I haven't heard of that movie
<Jester86> yeah german shepherds are extremely loyal and protective
<Jester86> I was laying on the floor watching tv half asleep the first time I brought him to my moms.. my grandparents opened the door and just walked in like they always do and he got between me and the hallway and started raising hell lol
<wolter> Jester86, its about these Chinese dog who waits all his life for his owner at a train station
<wolter> lmao
<Jester86> once I realized what was going on and told him to settle down he was fine tho .. just wanted to make sure I was cool w/ it i guess lol
<wolter> I never use those expressions but hell thats funny
<wolter> thats so awesome
<Jester86> yeah, I think he's prob a pretty good match for me lol
<Jester86> don't know if I could find a dog that fits me better lol
<Jester86> I take him backpacking too, helps keep you warm at night ;)
<wolter> lol
<wolter> sounds like a great dog
<Jester86> yeah, aint too bad
<Jester86> you should get one ;)
<wolter> maybe I should haha
<wolter> I was aiming at an alley dog
<Jester86> you do have to exercise them a lot tho .. they're pretty physical dogs
<wolter> and also we're going to buy a chihuahua tomorrow
<wolter> maybe
<wolter> oh yeah, no problem
<wolter> plenty of space here has made my dalmatian buffy
<Jester86> well the suns rising lol
<wolter> shit it will here too
<Jester86> haha
<Jester86> where are you at?
<wolter> Costa Rica
<wolter> try this one http://pastebin.com/12uwhcyf
<wolter> the other one was buggy
<wolter> You need no username input?
<wolter> anyway, you need to replace the variables like username and all right
<Jester86> yeah
<Jester86> thanks man
<Jester86> I think I may have to go w/ this and maybe learn a new language in the process lol
<wolter> did it work?
<Jester86> I haven't implemented it yet .. working on some gui stuff
<Jester86> and throwing the ball for sven.. my dog
<Jester86> I just saw a deer outside.. I need a crossbow lol
<wolter> lol
<wolter> Cool, you have deers there
<wolter> I assume its a cold place
<Jester86> yeah white tail
<Jester86> yeah for the most part
<wolter> anyway, I've got to get some sleep
<wolter> so, pleasure helping you
<wolter> if I did haha
<Jester86> winters get down to single digits, negative once in a while
<wolter> damn
<wolter> thats colder than i've ever experienced
<Jester86> lol alright, thanks alot man.. I'm doing going to try to implement that code.. and if nothing else it sparked me to learn the language ;)
<wolter> lol
<wolter> you won't regret learning python; its all I say haha
<Jester86> I've seen it as bad as -24 w/ the windchill
<wolter> shit
<wolter> haha
<wolter> well, cya then jester
<Jester86> and during summer i've seen it hit 110
<Jester86> lol
<Jester86> the temp varies ALOT here lol
<Jester86> alright man, have a good one and thanks
<wolter> oh well but Â°C  or Â°F ?
<wolter> that and ill go haha
<wolter> you too
<Jester86> F... howd you get the degree's symbol>
<wolter> u00b0
<wolter> I just happen to remember it no matter what haha
<Jester86> haha
<Jester86> nice
<Jester86> have a good one man
<wolter> it just won't stick off
<wolter> ok bye, u2
#ubuntu-classroom 2011-03-28
<vazqmich> is this a place where i can get help on my ubuntu troubles?
 * JackyAlcine will be right back.
<AJenbo> Hey TLE
<TLE> Hey
<dpm> hey hey, hello everyone!
<MeanEYE> ello there
<dpm> let's wait for a couple of minutes for people to come in and then let's start rolling
<AJenbo> Hello dpm
<dpm> hey AJenbo, how's it going?
<dpm> hey TLE :)
* ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to the Ubuntu Classroom - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Classroom || Support in #ubuntu || Upcoming Schedule: http://is.gd/8rtIi || Questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat || Event: Ubuntu Global Jam Bootcamp - Current Session: How to run a translations jam - Instructors: dpm
<TLE> Hallo
<dpm> hi MeanEYE
<ClassBot> Logs for this session will be available at http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2011/03/28/%23ubuntu-classroom.html following the conclusion of the session.
<dpm> right, it seems that the session is moderated, so while we are sorting this out, feel free to chat on #ubuntu-classroom-chat
<dpm> ok, let's get started!
<dpm> so, good morning/afternoon/evening everyone!
<dpm> today we're going to talk about running a translations jam during the Ubuntu Global Jam event
<dpm> the aim is for it to be useful for both new and experienced translation teams
<dpm> so it'd be cool if you could share your experiences on running jams too
<dpm> as I say, in the meantime we can talk on #ubuntu-classroom-chat, and I can forward the conversation in the main channel
<dpm> First of all, are there any translations people around?
<dpm> Anyone who's run a translations jam before?
<dpm> so we've got AJenbo from the Ubuntu Danish translation team
<dpm> and TLE also from the Danish team
<dpm> who've run a few small events
<dpm> ok, let's start with the dates
<dpm> You've probably heard that we are running the Ubuntu Global Jam (UGJ) very soon :)
<dpm> * WHAT: Ubuntu Global Jam
<dpm> * WHEN: weekend of the 1st-3rd Apr
<dpm> * WHERE: all over the world!
<dpm> You'll find all the info you need (and more!) on:
<dpm> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuGlobalJam
<dpm> There you'll find links for every type of jam we are proposing (translations, packaging, documentation, upgrade, testing, etc.)
<dpm> Remember that the idea is not that each LoCo runs all types of jams.
<dpm> The idea is that there are several options each team can consider, and then decide the type or types of jams that you'd like to run when you are getting together
<dpm> and of course, the other main idea is that you get to see your Ubuntu friends once more and have some fun :-)
<dpm> In the case of translations jams, you'll also find more info here:
<dpm> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Jams/Translations
<dpm> The important thing here is also to add your details on the UGJ event on the LoCo Directory here:
<dpm> http://loco.ubuntu.com/events/global/567/detail/
<dpm> it's very encouraging for all teams to see that they are participating in a truly global event
<dpm> improving Ubuntu and having a good time
<dpm> we've got 35 registered events all over the world already, which is quite impressive
<dpm> Also importantly, registering your event on the LoCo directory will give visibility to your team and more people might be interested in coming along to the local events.
<dpm> ok, so before we get into the details, any questions so far about what the global jam or anything related?
<dpm> <MeanEYE> dpm: Is there a way to make those events a bit more easy to find. I know a lot of people who use Ubuntu but have no clue UGJ or UDS exist. Some advertisement would be nice or perhaps advertising closest events based on geo-ip data to the user who visits Ubuntu.com
<dpm> we do advertise those events on the Ubuntu Planet, on http://loco.ubuntu.com/ and all the usual Ubuntu channels, and we rely on the community to spread the word as much as possible
<dpm> geo ip seems like a good idea, so my suggestion would be that if you've got a clear idea on a specification or on an implementation for ubuntu.com
<dpm> you'd file a bug on https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu-website/
<dpm> which will get to the attention of the website developers and you'll be able to contribute too
<dpm> Translations jams allow you making your favourite OS accessible for thousands of people in your language
<dpm> I always have to think that when I'm doing translations
<dpm> for some people it even means it's the only OS available in their language
<dpm> ok, it seems we've sorted out the moderation on the channel
<dpm> so feel free to comment on the main channel if you want from now on
<dpm> Anyway, for those new to translations:
<dpm> Translations in Ubuntu are done by the awesome people in Ubuntu Translation teams, which you can see here:
<dpm> https://translations.launchpad.net/+groups/ubuntu-translators
<dpm> They are the ones responsible for submitting and reviewing translations in each language
<dpm> But do not worry: everyone can submit translation suggestions without having to be in one of the translation teams, so that you can contribute easily since day 1. The members of the translation team will act as reviewers to see that your suggestion is ok, doesn't contain any typos, etc.
<dpm> So it's important to get in touch with them once you've done a bunch of suggestions, so that they are aware of them, and they can give you some feedback.
<dpm> This feedback will greatly help you on your way to becoming an Ubuntu translator, if you are not one already :)
<dpm> Before or after the Jam is a good time to get involved in those teams, and perhaps apply to join them.
<dpm> It is always a good thing to make sure there is at least a member of the Launchpad translation team at the Jam, be it physically or remotely, so that he or she can accept translation suggestions on the spot, or provide some feedback on improvement.
<dpm> The other useful thing in translation jams is to set goals:
<dpm> For example, before the jam you could decide you want:
<dpm> * To have ubuntu-docs or kubuntu-docs fully translated after the jam
<dpm> * To have the Ubuntu Slideshow in the installer fully translated after the jam
<dpm> * To have all the applications in the first page of http://translations.launchpad.net/ubuntu translated
<dpm> * To translate the package descriptions of the Featured category in Software Center
<dpm> * etc.
<dpm> Basically, it's up to you and your team which goals you want to set
<dpm> Remember to widely announce your jam in your region or local area
<AJenbo_> In the danish team we hacked ul10n-stats to produce a list of what packages needs to be translated for get to 100% translated UI
<dpm> AJenbo_, that's really cool, let's talk about this in a while, I've been hacking on ul10n-stats recently with the same purpose :)
<dpm> have a look at the latest revisions from trunk, I think you'll like it :)
<dpm> AJenbo_, anyway, you were telling me the Danish team was thinking of ways of better promoting events, could you share it with the rest of the audience?
<AJenbo_> We are going to run an ad campain og google using some of the free cupons they keep sending us.
<AJenbo_> We adwords you have the ability to specefy a region so you can make the ad specific to the local event
<AJenbo_> s/We/With
<dpm> wow, so you've been thinking about using it for promoting Ubuntu events?
<AJenbo_> yes
<dpm> cool :)
<dpm> so here's a great suggestion for other teams ^^
<dpm> ok, so going back to doing translations,
<dpm> during the jam
<dpm> you should definitely check out Nightmonkey if you are setting a goal for translations of package descriptions.
<dpm> I talked about it a while ago: http://davidplanella.wordpress.com/2010/02/26/translating-software-descriptions-with-nightmonkey/
<dpm> During the jam you can use several tools to coordinate the goals I was talking about earlier, assign translations, keep track on who's translating and reviewing what, etc
<dpm> Gobby (apt://gobby) and the Ubuntu wiki will come to your rescue
<dpm> you can, for example, prepare these goals in the wiki before the jam
<dpm> and then use gobby for real-time communication. This can be useful in either case: if you are running a jam somewhere where you are physically together, or remotely
<dpm> since that's another possibility
<dpm> we encourage running jams as a physical meeting
<dpm> but that's not always possible
<dpm> especially for LoCos that encompass really distant areas
<dpm> in that case, running an IRC jam can also be fun
<dpm> One important note on the goals, though:
<dpm> It's fantastic to achieve them, but sometimes in jams you get a lot of new people coming along, and you spend quite a lot of time telling them about Ubuntu, about how the translations process goes, etc.
<dpm> So you just have to remember that this training part is also very important. It is very rewarding to get new contributors to your translation team and help better localizing Ubuntu in your language
<dpm> And it is fun as well ;)
<dpm> Regarding new contributors,
<dpm> another tip is to prepare some short presentation on how the translation process works, so that you don't have to explain it every time all over again
<dpm> You can run the presentation at the beginning of the jam or put it somewhere and point people to it when they've got questions
<dpm> As you'll see that people come at any time during the day
<dpm> (don't expect everyone to come by first thing in the morning ;)
<dpm> And might not have seen your presentation if you are running it e.g. in the morning
<dpm> Another thing you can do during translation Jams is to get together to prepare translation guidelines for your team
<dpm> As you all or part of the team will be together in one place, it is a great opportunity to put the guidelines in writing
<dpm> and make the translation process a lot easier
<dpm> You'll find more info on translation guidelines on:
<dpm> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Translations/KnowledgeBase/TranslationGuidelines
<dpm> And again, remember you'll find more info on how to run translations and other types of jams on:
<dpm> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Jams/Translations
<dpm> Anyway, I think that's mostly what I wanted to cover for today
<dpm> Does anyone have any questions?
<dpm> Or would like to share past experiences with jams?
<ClassBot> There are 10 minutes remaining in the current session.
<dpm> in any case you'll find that and more info on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuGlobalJam
<AJenbo_> When new people come and try to translate it might be a good idea to have them on a relaxed rule set but with guidence so that they have an easy transition to becomming part of the translation team
<dpm> AJenbo_, yeah, definitely, take it easy with beginners, and let them feel welcome!
<AJenbo_> They might not be ready to commit there privat email to a busy mail list either.
<dpm> yeah, that's also a good point too, and that's also why a meeting in person, getting to know people from the mailing list can be really useful and less scary to newcomers
<ClassBot> There are 5 minutes remaining in the current session.
<MeanEYE> Is there a simple tutorial for people new to whole translation deal? If not that might be a good idea. Most of us are not familiar with applications and rules when it comes to translation.
<dpm> MeanEYE, definitely. We've got https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Translations/QuickStartGuide, which is always a good resource to point new translations contributors to
<dpm> and local teams have got their own resources and guides too
<dpm> ok, so I think that was all for me today. All I need to say is thanks a lot for your participation and see you at the Global Jam!
<MeanEYE> Thanks.
<dpm> I'll now leave you in the able hands of the man with the unpronounceable nickname "The do's and dont's of bug triaging", with hggdh.
<nigelb> heh
<dpm> see you all!
<hggdh> heh
<MeanEYE> Cheers!
<hggdh> Hello. My name is Carlos de-Avillez. I am one of the administrators for the BugSquad and BugControl teams on Ubuntu. I have been around bugs for pretty much all my professional life -- causing them, or finding them, or fixing them (or all three in sequence ;-).
<hggdh> I started with Ubuntu in 2006, when I was trying to (yet again) find a Linux distribution that I felt more confortable with, and that did not need me to spend a lot of time tweaking the kernel, etc. And guess what... Ubuntu won! :-). I then joined the community, and started being active beginning of 2007.
<hggdh> Now, as usual, questions should be asked on the #ubuntu-classroom-chat channel. If you want to ask a question, write it there, and precede it with 'QUESTION:'. For example:
<hggdh> QUESTION: What does 'hggdh' mean?
<hggdh> heh
<hggdh> Let's get into the class now.
<nigelb> Something in Hebrew I think ;)
* ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to the Ubuntu Classroom - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Classroom || Support in #ubuntu || Upcoming Schedule: http://is.gd/8rtIi || Questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat || Event: Ubuntu Global Jam Bootcamp - Current Session: The do's and dont's of bug triaging  - Instructors: hggdh
<hggdh> indeed
<hggdh> First, who we are (https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BugSquad)
<ClassBot> Logs for this session will be available at http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2011/03/28/%23ubuntu-classroom.html following the conclusion of the session.
<hggdh> The BugSquad is the team responsible for *triaging* bugs opened against Ubuntu and its packages. The term 'triage' is pretty much taken from medicine --  determining the priority of treatments based on the severity of a condition  (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triage).
<hggdh> Different from medical triage, though, we do not expect human death as a consequence of delayed treatment.
<hggdh> which is, BTW, good!
<hggdh> But we still need to triage: there are many more bugs than triagers; we have to be able to prioritise the bugs; we _should_ be able to address _all_ bugs eventually.
<hggdh> For us, then, triage is the process of analysing a bug, collecting enough data to completely describe it, and marking the bug 'Triaged', and give it an importance.
<hggdh> Triage ends there -- it is not our responsibility to *solve* the bug: once the issue is identified, and all necessary and sufficient documentation has been added to the bug, triaging *ENDS*, and the bug goes on to a developer/maintainer to be worked on.
<hggdh> Again: triaging *ends* when a bug status is set to Triaged (see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Bugs/Status).
<hggdh> This does not mean we do not solve bugs ourselves. Most of us wear a lot of hats, on (possibly) more than one project. But _triaging_ ends when the bug is set to Triaged.
<hggdh> It is no longer a BugSquad interest.
<hggdh> Now, another important point is being able to differentiate between bugs (errors in a programme/package) and support issues (how to use a programme/package, how to set up something). We only deal with *bugs*.
<hggdh> Support requests should be redirected to one of the appropriate fora: http://askubuntu.com/, https://answers.launchpad.net/, http://ubuntuforums.org/, an appropriate IRC channel, etc.
<hggdh> With that in mind...
<hggdh> DO: follow the advices and recommendations from https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BugSquad/KnowledgeBase: they can be used not only for finding more about your own issues, but *ALSO* for triaging somebody else's bugs.
<hggdh> if you do not agree with something there, please bring it up on #ubuntu-bugs, or the bugSquad mailing list. We will be happy to correct any issue (er, actually, we will probably tell you we agree, and ask *you* to update it)
<hggdh> DO: read https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BugSquad/KnowledgeBase. Really. No kidding.
<hggdh> DO: read the Code of Conduct (http://www.ubuntu.com/community/conduct).  A nice exposition of the CoC is also at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CodeOfConductGuidelines.
<hggdh> (if you wish to be a member of the BugSquad (and, eventually, of Bug Control), we require that you sign it.)
<hggdh> This -- the CoC -- is perhaps the major difference between Ubuntu and other projects: we try very hard to live by it. *NOT* signing it does not free one from been required to be civil. So...
<hggdh> DO: be nice. Say 'please', and 'thank you'. It does help, a lot. Follow the Golden Rule (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Golden_Rule), *always*.
<hggdh> DO: keep in mind that English is the official language on https://bugs.launchpad.net, but _many_ UBuntu bug reporters are *not* native speakers of English. This means that many times we will get bugs that are badly written in English (or not in English at all).
<hggdh> or, a few times, in something that sort of seems like English, but certainly it is just a passing resemblance...
<hggdh> so:
<hggdh> DO: Try to understand. Ask for someone else to translate it if you do not speak (er, read) the language (hint: the #ubuntu-translators and #ubuntu-bug channels will probably have someone able to translate). Be nice -- always. "I cannot understand you" is, most of the times, *not* nice ;-)
<hggdh> DO: ask for help on how to deal with a bug if you are unsure. Nobody knows it all, and we all started ignorant on bug triaging (and, pretty much, on everything else ;-). We have a mailing list (Ubuntu-bugsquad@lists.ubuntu.com), and we are always at the #ubuntu-bugs channel on freenode.
<hggdh> We will be more than happy to help out on procedures and requirements.
<hggdh> Please note that we do not _triage_ bugs on #ubuntu-bugs, or the ML -- we will answer and help on procedures and requirements. We will, though, point out deficiencies and missing data, and suggest actions.
<hggdh> DO: _understand_ the problem. A lot of times we see a bug where a _consequence_ is described, but not the _cause_. The triager should do her/his best to understand which is which, and act accordingly. This may mean changing the bug's package, or rewriting the description, etc.
<hggdh> The point here is: if we do not understand what is the problem, then how can we correct it?
<hggdh> There are many ways to do that (er, _understand_, not solve); most will require learning ;-)
<hggdh> yeah, study. More.
<hggdh> But look at it in a different way: I am only good on what I do because I *keep* on learning.
<hggdh> most processes & procedures for understanding a problem also have never been really ported/adapted to computing (differential diagnosis -- medicine --, fault trees -- nuclear reactors, rockets --, etc). So... right now, the best way is to learn more. To keep on learning. With time you will be able to _intuitively_ see a consequence.
<hggdh> (I would personally love to see differential diagnosis ported to computing, I think there is really something there)
<ClassBot> jsjgruber asked: So should bug reports reflect symptoms or causes?
<hggdh> jsjgruber: bug reports should have both, as much as possible: you see a bug due to a consequence (incorrect output, unexpected termination, etc)
<hggdh> but we should try to discern between cause and consequence (so an ideal bug report will have both: "given that input, this error happens")
<hggdh> a bug report with only consequence is not (yet) fixable -- we will still have to find out *what* *causes* the issue
<hggdh> Also, it is important to keep in mind that *correlation is not causation* (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Correlation_does_not_imply_causation).
<hggdh> not necessarily what seems to be connected is indeed connected
<hggdh> (I think this was once called the first law of correct startistic)
<hggdh> statistics
<hggdh> DO: Try to ask and find answers for some questions: WHAT did happen? WHY did it happen? WHICH COMPONENTS are involved? HOW did it happen? HOW can it be REPEATED? What has CHANGED (if it worked before)?
<ClassBot> mdevenish asked: Do you need to be assigned a mentor to join the bug squad?
<hggdh> mdevenish: no, not at all.
<hggdh> mdevenish: we do strongly suggest that you frequent #ubuntu-bugs
<hggdh> most of the questions asked to mentors are routinely answered there
<hggdh> DO: add a comment on every action you take on the bug (changing status, importance, package, etc). Although for you it may be crystal-clear the reasons for taking an action, this may not be true for others (in fact, a lot of times it is not clear, at all...).
<hggdh> the above is much more important than it seems: we, working on a bug, know exactly *why* we took an action
<ClassBot> jsjgruber asked: If two different symptoms have the same cause should one be marked as a duplicate of the other?
<hggdh> but... usually, nobody else knows why...
<hggdh> jsjgruber: hum. Careful there -- but yes, one single cause may produce different symptoms
<hggdh> so we should go to what I stated above on understanding what happened
<hggdh> DO NOT: add comments like "me too", "I also have it", "also a problem here", etc. These comments just pollute the bug, making it more difficult to find out what happened, where we are, and what is the next step.
<hggdh> (I hate to page thru a 200-comment bug, trying to find out something that really helps the work on the bug)
<hggdh> instead, mark it as "also affects me". Much cleaner.
<hggdh> (and subscribe to it, if you wish to know when the issue is resolved)
<hggdh> DO: if you are starting on triage, browse the open bugs (there are about 80,000 of them) and look for one you feel _confortable_ with (or less unconfortable ;-). Ideally, you should be able to reproduce it. It does help if you start with bugs on packages you yourself use.
<hggdh> I will repeat the last sentence in a slightly different way:
<hggdh> DO NOT work on bugs involving packages YOU do not use/undertand.
<ClassBot> chadadavis asked: There needs to be some kind of 'me too' (just one) to mark the bug as confirmed, no?
<hggdh> If you do not know how to use a package, how will you be able to say this is, or is not, a bug?
<hggdh> chadadavis: yes. If you can confirm the issue of an existing bug, you can mark it Confirmed. But... in this case I would like a bit more than a "mee too", I would like to to know HOW it was reproduced, WHAT VERSIONS, and WHAT HAPPENED
<hggdh> in other words: changing a bug status should *ALWAYS* be done together with an explanation of the reasoning
<hggdh> And do get on to #ubuntu-bugs, and ask for help there when in doubt. We do not bite... really ;-)
<hggdh> Oh, since we are here:
<hggdh> DO NOT: change a Triaged bug to New/Incomplete/Confirmed -- a triaged bug is OUT OF SCOPE for triaging. It is not our problem anymore (while wearing the triager's hat).
<hggdh> as a developer/maintainer, I *can* move a bug from Triaged to New/Incomplete/Confirmed -- or even close it INVALID/WONTFIX, etc
<hggdh> but, as a triager, IT IS OUT OF SCOPE
<hggdh> DO NOT: assign yourself (or any other person) to a bug. Bug assignment is a clear, official, signal that "the assignee is actively working on resolving this issue". Nobody else -- including the developers/maintainers -- will touch this bug anymore. Instead...
<hggdh> DO: so... if you are triaging, and have asked a question/requested action from the OP (Original Poster), *subscribe* to the bug. Nothing is worse than a fire-and-forget action.
<hggdh> DO NOT: confirm your own bugs. *EVER*. The fact that you see/experience a bug does not necessarily _make_ it a real bug. It may be something on your setup...
<hggdh> DO: follow suggested actions. For some packages we have more detailed 'howtos'. These are described under the https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DebuggingProcedures page. It is always a good idea to check them (and update/correct as needed).
<hggdh> these suggested actions are the result of years of painful learning. Most of the time they ARE correct (but, perhaps, dated?)
<hggdh> Now, a lot of the packages we offer on Ubuntu come from different projects -- Debian, Gnome, GNU, etc. We call these projects -- where real development usually takes place -- "upstream". By the same reasoning, we say we are "downstream" from them.
<hggdh> (it also happens that Ubuntu is 'upstream' in some packages)
<hggdh> The ideal scenario is we have our packages identical to what upstream provide, no local patchs (except, probably, for packaging details).
<hggdh> Having local changes increases the delta (the difference between what we provide and what upstream provides), and makes updates/upgrades more costly. So our patches, ideally, should be provided to the upstream project, and discussed there (and hopefully accepted).
<hggdh> Bugs affecting upstream projects have to be communicated upstream. This usually means doing a similar triage as we do here for a specific upstream (looking for an identical bug on the upstream project, and opening one if none is found). So.
<hggdh> DO: Look upstream, and open a new bug if needed; then *link* this upstream bug to ours (and ours to theirs).
<hggdh> BUT...
<hggdh> Many upstreams have different rules on how to open/work with/close a bug. Ergo,
<hggdh> DO: follow upstream's processes when working upstream (in an old saying, "when you enter a city, abide by its laws and customs").
<hggdh> Finally... (and this is not a DO/DO NOT):
<hggdh> Thank you. I am glad you were here, and I hope you help us out. And we are always (er, at least there is always someone logged it, we also have a life) available to help and discuss triaging work.
<hggdh> uff. my fingers hurt ;-)
<hggdh> questions, folks?
<hggdh> then closing remarks:
<hggdh> pretty much all of us on triage work started as volunteers; most of us are still volunteers: we *like* Ubuntu
<hggdh> I personally like the CoC, I think this is perhaps the most remarkable thing on the Ubuntu project
<hggdh> and this is it. Thank you
<nigelb> Thank you hggdh
<hggdh> my pleasure, Nigel
<nigelb> Alright, next up is YoBoY from the French loco, we have 10 mins to go and we
<nigelb> and we'll wait
<ClassBot> There are 10 minutes remaining in the current session.
<ClassBot> There are 5 minutes remaining in the current session.
* ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to the Ubuntu Classroom - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Classroom || Support in #ubuntu || Upcoming Schedule: http://is.gd/8rtIi || Questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat || Event: Ubuntu Global Jam Bootcamp - Current Session: How the French team rocks their global jam - Instructors: YoBoy
<ClassBot> Logs for this session will be available at http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2011/03/28/%23ubuntu-classroom.html following the conclusion of the session.
<YoBoY> Hi, I'm YoBoY, one of the actual French loco Team contact, and one of the administrators of the french documentation. I'm also planning the next global jam in Paris
<YoBoY> I'm here to explain how we make our global jam event rocks.
<YoBoY> Our last Jam in Paris, we had more than 50 people who come to learn how to contribute. We made workshops to learn how to test, report bugs, triage bugs and write documentation.
<YoBoY> In Paris, we have lot of users who want to help, but they don't know how to and where to start.
<YoBoY> Most of them don't have programing skills.
<YoBoY> Our Jams are more learning sessions.
<YoBoY> We try to give everyone the basis to start contributing on their own, and find what they can do to the Ubuntu project.
<YoBoY> Let me explain how we proceed to make a Jam.
<YoBoY> I - find a good venue.
<YoBoY> we need lot of space, with network
<YoBoY> It's not easy to have that type of venue in Paris on the week end, and we need to make the reservation more than one month before the event
<YoBoY> II - find people who can help make the workshops.
<YoBoY> We try to cover lot of aspects of contribution.
<YoBoY> To do that, we need members knowing how things works, how to use Launchpad, report bugs, translate, etc...
<YoBoY> If you can do it alone, it's fine.
<YoBoY> But if you plan to do more than one workshop, you need help.
<YoBoY> To find this rare persons, start asking on classic channels (IRC, forum, mailing lists).
<YoBoY> Don't be afraid to ask everywhere, not only on your local channels. Some Ubuntu members are not always registered on the loco teams, but they can help if you ask them.
<YoBoY> This first two points are the most difficult for us because we always have lot of people who came to our events
<YoBoY> to help around 50 people we need at least 10 members who can help using Launchpad and the other tools
<YoBoY> <Bipul`> how about people leaving other nation ? if they like you to help in it
<YoBoY> I'm not sure to understand the question :)
<YoBoY> Everyone is welcome to join, to help or to participate
<YoBoY> The French Team is already composed by lot of people all around the world. we always promote also events in other part of the world if we can.
<ClassBot> Vanillalite asked: Did you guys have prefunding to get started or was getting money to say rent the meeting site part of the process?
<YoBoY> no money, everything is free
<YoBoY> We think here the knowledge should stay free. A part of our visitors are students, asking them to pay something is not good.
<YoBoY> <MeanEYE> if someone wants to come to France to your Jam, many countries don't have have local Jams, could your LoCo help with accomodation and similar things ?
<YoBoY> Yes, we always try to accomodate people who want to come to help. We already are doing this for our Ubuntu Party (100 benevolents coming from everywhere in France and from outside France ;) )
<YoBoY> Next point
<YoBoY> III - promote the event.
<YoBoY> If you want to have people to join, you need to promote the event.
<YoBoY> Blog about the global jam, promote it on your local planet, on mailing lists, on your forum. And do it more than once. Give some useful links to prepare for the event, answer every questions.
<YoBoY> For this Jam, the first post announcing the date, the venue, and some good reading was make last month.
<YoBoY> and another one, with the real content (translation, documentation, testing, reporting bugs, ...) last week
<YoBoY> This week we plan to make another post, and use the forum and the mailing lists
<YoBoY> We are proud this year to have a workshop on translation. Lot of people ask for that type of workshop, but it's really not easy to find someone to explain how translation work
<ClassBot> MeanEYE asked: Is French Jam one of popular jams?
<YoBoY> Don't know if the Global Jam is popular, or if it's just because it's an Ubuntu event :)
<YoBoY> Paris is a wonderful city. lot of people love free software, and lot of people like Ubuntu.
<YoBoY> Like I said, our last jam we had more than 50 people, it's a big Jam
<YoBoY> Other countries are doing "smaller" jams, but with more real contributions, real work on the bugs, the translations, or other things
<YoBoY> we can't really compare
<YoBoY> I think our work it's to open the doors, let people see what they can do, how we make Ubuntu, how free softwares work.
<YoBoY> Last point of our Jams
<YoBoY> IV - Have fun !
<YoBoY> :D
<YoBoY> Don't forget, the best part in a Jam is to meet people.
<YoBoY> We always start in Paris with a lunch for the members who organize the Jam. We need energy, and it's a good moment to talk.
<YoBoY> And at the end of the day, everyone can join us at a pub to share a drink and talk about Ubuntu and free softwares.
<YoBoY> It's for me the best part of the events, taking time to talk with new friends.
<YoBoY> Everyone in the Ubuntu community, is doing his best to invite new people to contribute to Ubuntu. The Global Jams is a great opportunity for that.
<YoBoY> If you can have these 4 points, I'm sure your Jam will rocks too :)
<YoBoY> questions ?
<ClassBot> MeanEYE asked: UGJ is twice a year. Right?
<YoBoY> Yes, The Ubuntu Global Jam for each releases
<YoBoY> so it's twice a year
<ClassBot> MeanEYE asked: What's the best way to get in touch with some LoCo or it's members before comming to Jam?
<YoBoY> I think you can start with the LoCo Directory
<YoBoY> loco.ubuntu.com
<YoBoY> You can see information of the loco teams, and their events
<YoBoY> You can also start by posting in the forum of the loco team
<YoBoY> some teams, like mine, are very complicate in their organisation (lot of irc channels, mailing lists, ...). Posting a comment on the blog post of the event is also a good first contact
<ClassBot> There are 10 minutes remaining in the current session.
<ClassBot> MeanEYE asked: Should you contact LoCo member so they know the amount of people to expect?
<YoBoY> yes, you can tell the organiser of the jam you are coming. It's important if you come to help, not just to assist.
<YoBoY> we can have 70 people in our venue, we plan to have around 50, so for us it's not really important
<YoBoY> But for other jams, where the venue is smaller, it's good to tell them you are comming
<ClassBot> There are 5 minutes remaining in the current session.
<YoBoY> by the way, don't forget to take network wire, ... or ask what they need ^^
<YoBoY> ok, thanks everyone, it's time for me to leave :)
<YoBoY> Have good jams and don't forget to have fun :)
<nigelb> \o/
<nigelb> Thanks YoBoY
<nigelb> And next up, we have itnet7, Give him a cheer folks
<itnet7> YAY!!!!
<itnet7> j/k
<itnet7> Hey there everyone and welcome to "Global Jam Florida Style" itnet7 here, one of the leaders of the Florida Team, and also on the LoCo Council here to talk abou the Florida Team and our Jams ....
* ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to the Ubuntu Classroom - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Classroom || Support in #ubuntu || Upcoming Schedule: http://is.gd/8rtIi || Questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat || Event: Ubuntu Global Jam Bootcamp - Current Session: Global Jam Florida style - Instructors: itnet7
<ClassBot> Logs for this session will be available at http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2011/03/28/%23ubuntu-classroom.html following the conclusion of the session.
<itnet7> The Florida Team has always partipated in UGJ's. Our first Ubuntu Global Jam was in Orlando. When we first held an UG Jam we tried to have it in one City, thinking that it would be an opportunity for us to meet up with others that we have worked with and collaborated with Online.
<itnet7> Unfortunately, due to rising fuel costs, and time constraints....
<itnet7> We decided to encourage others to host an event nearby if they would like to be involved.  We are holding two events, One in Lakeland and the other in Melbourne.
<itnet7> For those of you that haven't had a chance to participate yet. The Ubuntu Global Jam is a global online and in Real Life event where people come together and use their talents to work the upcoming release of Ubuntu. During this time typically teams will work on: Bug triaging, Documentation revision, Packaging and Translations, etcetera.
<itnet7> The idea is to borrow some suggestions from https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuGlobalJam
<itnet7> but also feel free to come up with your own ideas and ways that you can help to improve the next release!
<itnet7> For example... in Lakeland...mhall119 and other attendees are going to work on the Summit Scheduler for UDS. They will collaborate to fix bugs and add new enhancements to the Summit Web-Application. http://loco.ubuntu.com/events/team/729/detail/ to see further info about this event.
<itnet7> any questions so far?
<itnet7> well that brings me to a good point
<itnet7> If you, yourself or others around you are involved with Ubuntu but haven't already organized an event, we currently have 35 events on the LoCo Directory
<itnet7> There are some pretty good descriptions up there, that can give insight on to what is planned and could possibly help you generate a few ideas of your own!
<itnet7> We have had around 15-20 in attendance at our Jams
<itnet7> All with different technical levels, and skills
<itnet7> and everyone collaborates and has a really great time!
<itnet7> It's important to note that you don't really need to have that many people come in order to host an Ubuntu Global Jam
<itnet7> Even if it's only one or two at most, that would still be awesome, and you're still contributing :-P
<itnet7> :-)
<itnet7> We usually mail our team mailing list about 2 - 4 weeks in advance to let everyone know where we are planning to hold our events
<itnet7> We're hoping that this encourages them to either drive to one of our events, or host their own!
<itnet7> In the Melbourne, FL event... I plan to try and take about 5-10 people throught the beginning step of getting their accounts up to speed in Launchpad
<itnet7> and then showing them the basics of triaging bugs
<itnet7> I also plan on bringing some thumbdrives with Natty Beta 1 on it in case any one that hasn't wants to take Natty for spin (live).
<itnet7> Our event in Melbourne is scheduled for 4 hours, which is a pretty decent amount of time. We are planning to go out afterward and have dinner as a group
<itnet7> Another big thing is to try and get 1 or 2 people (Depending on how many show up) to take some pictures during the event
<itnet7> This is another way to contribute, by sharing pictures afterward, there is a good chance you will encourage others to also host their own events in the future. It also will encourage them to attend your events in the future.
<itnet7> Dent, Tweet, Buzz, Facebook, Re-Dent, Re-tweet, Re-buzz, Like
<itnet7> Do your best to share progress
<itnet7> and if you're working towards goals, share youre accomplishments
<itnet7> If someone brand new that has never been to an Ubuntu Global Jam attends, and sumbit's his/her first bug dent it to #ugj
<itnet7> Or if you're working on a patch and it's accepted during your jam, then brag about that too!
<itnet7> It keeps everyone in the loop, and allows for us to all share in each other's accomplishments
<itnet7> Here are some pictures of our previous jams....
<itnet7> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/GlobalBugJam/Stories?action=AttachFile&do=get&target=fl_loco_Globaljam_022009_sm.jpg
<itnet7> http://www.flickr.com/photos/sanguinetangox/3981704091/in/pool-1277863@N23/
<itnet7> So, Venues... Here in the US we are able to reserve conference rooms in our Public Libraries. We are required to submit and application, with the date and time we would like to reserve it
<itnet7> I am sure it's similar around the world
<ClassBot> pleia2 asked: What kind of venues does the FL team use?
<itnet7> Our libraries have decent enough wifi to install and application or two, but not much more than that
<itnet7> the plus side, it's free to reserve a room usually
<itnet7> You just want to verify whether or not you are allowed to bring in drinks and snacks, as we've seen some libraries in Florida that wouldn't let us bring in any food/beverages
<itnet7> Local Coffee Shops are also a great place, (Starbucks included of course)
<itnet7> but you can probably take you're time and locate a nice family owned coffee shop that would be glad for you to have your event there!
<itnet7> You can check with Hotels as well. Especially if you have some friends that work there. You can also ask for a Hotel Manager and let him know you're not selling anything and ask if he would allow you to use one of their small conference rooms
<itnet7> We also have some restaurants near us that have "Community Rooms" that they let us use. In return each of us orders stuff to eat and drink throughout the time we're there
<itnet7> It's a good idea to call around and see what places have what if you're unsure
<itnet7> If you think of a great place, call them and check and make sure they have wifi, and ask if a group of your size needs reservations, and find out of there is any cost to reserve, (some places do try to charge small fees to reserve to guarantee they don't lose out on potential business)
<itnet7> We have held our events in coffee Shops and Libraries mostly
<itnet7> and try to schedule a social event afterwards... Like Dinner and/or a Movie
<itnet7> I was asked: Did you throw beach parties as a part of UGJ?
<itnet7> So far, not yet!
<itnet7> It would be a good idea with a little more planning to potentially have a bbq at the beach as the social event
<itnet7> barbeque
<itnet7> With tethering and netbooks we could probably work at one of the pavillions!
<itnet7> Good idea
<ClassBot> There are 10 minutes remaining in the current session.
<itnet7> We haven't yet, but it has potential :-)
<itnet7> At the beaches here, they are more like County Parks
<itnet7> They have huge Pavillions just off of the beach. A lot of them have power outlets and a shady nice breeze!
<itnet7> If anyone has any specific questions drop me a line at itnet7<at>ubuntu<dot>com
<itnet7> mhall119 wanted to share with everyone that his event started with only he and one other person in mind, and now it has grown to 6 or 7
<itnet7> so please be encouraged!
<ClassBot> There are 5 minutes remaining in the current session.
<itnet7> two people are enough to get started, and your jam can be equally successful with only two!!
<itnet7> Well I'd like to thank everyone that is taking part in the UGJ bootcamp and thanks to nigelb for putting this together!!
<itnet7> Or I should say the Classroom Team!!
<itnet7> Thanks for having us share!
* ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to the Ubuntu Classroom - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Classroom || Support in #ubuntu || Upcoming Schedule: http://is.gd/8rtIi || Questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat || Event: Ubuntu Global Jam Bootcamp - Current Session: Ubuntu-NC's ideas about global jam - Instructors: akgraner
<akgraner> Hi all!
<ClassBot> Logs for this session will be available at http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2011/03/28/%23ubuntu-classroom.html following the conclusion of the session.
<akgraner> Thanks itnet7 and YoBoY...you all are awesome sessions to follow not sure I can add to what you have said but I'll try..:-)
<akgraner> My name is Amber Graner and I'm part of the North Carolina LoCo Team
<akgraner> I've organized on local global jam and one virtual global jam
<akgraner> before I get started how many people in the channel have attended a global jam?
<akgraner> (you can answer in #ubuntu-classoom-chat)
<akgraner> alrighty.. so I have to say Ubuntu Global Jam is one of my favorite Ubuntu events
<akgraner> and here's why - you are only limited by your imagination as to what the event can be
<akgraner> there was discussion in the NC loco team in 2009 about what a global jam *had* to be
<akgraner> and there was discussion on limiting what it could be
<akgraner> in the end it can be what whomever is organizing it wants it to be
<akgraner> from coffee hours to bug, translation, document, etc jams
<akgraner> or it can become a ubucon during global jam - so I love it!
<akgraner> Here is  a link to some of the pictures from one of the one we held in NC - http://akgraner.com/?p=155
<akgraner> it was held at a local (local to Lake Lure North Carolina) historic hotel
<ClassBot> MeanEYE asked: Does that mean you don't have to know how to patch bugs or translate in order to be a part of UGJ?
<akgraner> MeanEYE, that's right! I don't write code or translate
<akgraner> I just like to tell people about Ubuntu
<akgraner> and share what I have learned or learning
<akgraner> however there are other people who do those things I invite to global jams
<akgraner> the picks you see in the link above had the following - people were triaging bugs, writing patches, filing bugs, and others were dropping by to find out what ubuntu was
<akgraner> s/picks/pics
<akgraner> it was truly a come as you are event where we asked people to tell us what they wanted to know about ubuntu or let us know what they wanted to learn about the kernel etc
<akgraner> as we were lucky enough to have some of the kernel present for this event
<akgraner> During this upcoming global jam we have members of the loco team who will be hosting an install fest at one of the LUG meetings in the Asheville, NC area
<akgraner> so global jam can really take on many shapes and forms
<ClassBot> MeanEYE asked: How much in advance dates are set for UGJ? It might help people to organise a bit better if they are not from the same country.
<akgraner> great question - however, there is not a set answer here - there are a lot of variable..but here is my rule of thumb...and please let me know if this helps
<akgraner> for a UGJ as soon as the dates are announced start looking for venues...
<akgraner> so hotels will give you space if it is there off season
<akgraner> other venues need 4-6 weeks notice
<akgraner> others need less than 48 hours - so you will have to get to know the venues in your area
<akgraner> start with places like - libraries, coffee shops, pubs, hotels, convention centers (if you are expecting large groups and can work it into another event)
<akgraner> also many loco team members open their homes to hosting a global jam
<akgraner> even though I said it can be anything you want it to be as it pertains to ubuntu  - it is helpful to have some goals in mind
<akgraner> for example - this global jam might be a good time to try out natty and have a goal of filing x number of bugs
<akgraner> or maybe if you are in a coffee shop to hand out so many fliers to people who have never heard of Ubuntu or FOSS before
<akgraner> itnet7, and YoBoY covered a lot and I don't want to repeat all of what they said - so are their any specific questions I can help answer before I keep talking?
<ClassBot> BbluE asked: No one has figured out if Natty is going to have SLI or Crossfire, for multiple nVidia or ATI, video cards, have they?
<akgraner> No one has figured this one out yet..(as I was just informed)  back to global jam questions
<akgraner> so back to global jam - :-)
<akgraner> partnering with LUG groups is also a fun what to have a great global jam as well
<ClassBot> mdevenish asked: Should I install Natty beta before attending a global jam or install during the jam?
<akgraner> mdevenish, nope...
<akgraner> unless the goal of the jam is to file bugs and test natty
<akgraner> and even then you could do that without installing it
<akgraner> there are those who always want to do something technical at global jams and there are those who want to do more social and advocate stuff at global jams and that's ok and there is no reason why you can't incorporate a little of all of it into a global jam
<akgraner> also if you can't be part of what the loco team (proper) is doing don't let that keep you from having your own global jam
<akgraner> just let the team know so they can add it to the list of events taking place throughout your loco area
<akgraner> for those who were asking about what makes up a global jam  here is the wiki page that describes it - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuGlobalJam
<ClassBot> MeanEYE asked: Any ideas so far about connecting global jams with live streaming video?!
<akgraner> itnet7, and I talked about this a while back
<akgraner> it's all a matter of having the right internet connections to be able to stream the events
<akgraner> it's a great idea and I believe itnet7 has actually broadcast some of the FL events
<ClassBot> chadadavis asked: do all the events happen at the same time, so that groups can communicate online (IRC) as well. Or is the focus more on the local, personal interaction?
<akgraner> yes :-) while the focus is often on getting together in person there is nothing stopping a team or project from hosting a virtual global jam event
<akgraner> if the goal is to clean up wiki documents during the global jam and people on a team live hours apart from one another then the coordination and wiki clean up can happen online during the global jam weekend
<akgraner> much the way a bug day happens
<ClassBot> Lancer asked: Where can I find documentation on past UGJs?
<akgraner> <mhall119> Lancer: http://loco.ubuntu.com/events/global/195/detail/ lists the ones from August of last year
<akgraner> thanks mhall119 for posting that link...
<akgraner> the UGJ wiki gives many suggestions on types of activities you can do at your global jam
<akgraner> if you or your team is new to global jams it's a great place to start
<akgraner> anything else?
<akgraner> something I haven't touched on that you still have questions about?
<akgraner> also you can add the ubuntu global jam banners to your wiki pages, websites and blog posts
<akgraner> those banners are found on the bottom of the UGJ wiki page - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuGlobalJam
<akgraner> also if you are looking for posters, fliers etc a good place to get material like is http://spreadubuntu.neomenlo.org/en/
<ClassBot> mhall119 asked: Can we bring non-technical people to jams? Family, friends, children and significant others?
<akgraner> mhall119, yes of course - I drag every non-technical person I can find to ubuntu events :-)
<akgraner> but if you do be prepared to listen to their feedback
<akgraner> see if they will tell you what they like or don't like about using Ubuntu
<akgraner> *without* being judgmental
<akgraner> we all come to use Linux and open source in our own way so *don't* make them feel anything negative b/c they aren't using Ubuntu yet
<akgraner> make sure your event is very inclusive and know the audience you are are inviting
<akgraner> (well as much as possible)
<ClassBot> mhall119 asked: Where can I send that feedback once I get it?
<akgraner> Good Questions - that would depend on what the feedback is about...:-) I would ask your loco leader if you aren't sure who should get the feedback...
<ClassBot> There are 10 minutes remaining in the current session.
<akgraner> I personally try to look through the various teams and see who it needs to go to
<akgraner> ie if it's about Ubuntu One then I let those folks know
<akgraner> if it's about the desktop I find someone on the desktop team etc
<akgraner> and I usually send an email with all of the feedback and not little bits here and there
<akgraner> and if all else fails and I can't find the right team - then I start asking people until I get to the right person
<akgraner> make sense?
<akgraner> ok we have about 5 more minutes
<akgraner> anything else?
<akgraner> oh yeah another fun activity is to answer or vote on AskUbuntu questions
<akgraner> it's also a good what to see if questions people may have at your global jam have already been asked and answered there as well
<akgraner> http://askubuntu.com/
<ClassBot> There are 5 minutes remaining in the current session.
<akgraner> So remember - have fun, be social, and go with what you know
<akgraner> if you know about bug triaging teach someone that
<akgraner> if you like fixing wikis go with that
<akgraner> if your passion is telling people about all that is cool with ubuntu then do that
<akgraner> remember just make it an event people will want to participate in again...and it will grow
<akgraner> Thanks y'all hope this helps...
<akgraner> if there are any other questions for me you can find me on irc or email at akgraner  @   ubuntu {dot} com
* ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to the Ubuntu Classroom - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Classroom || Support in #ubuntu || Upcoming Schedule: http://is.gd/8rtIi || Questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat || Event: Ubuntu Global Jam Bootcamp - Current Session: All about those live isos - Instructors: xdatap
<ClassBot> Logs for this session will be available at http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2011/03/28/%23ubuntu-classroom.html following the conclusion of the session.
<xdatap> Hi everybody, thanks for coming!
<xdatap> My name is Paolo Sammicheli, I'm an Ubuntu member from the Italian LoCo Team, and today we'll talk about ISO Testing.
<xdatap> Let's start with the most important question:
<xdatap> Why should one try to test Ubuntu?
<xdatap> Because it's fun!
<xdatap> because it's a valuable contribution to Ubuntu
<xdatap> and because you will learn a lot of things :)
<xdatap> Let's see, now, how to test Ubuntu!
<xdatap> You might already know that Ubuntu has a 6-month release cycle, which means that every 6 months we have a new Ubuntu release.
<xdatap> Less known is the fact that, before the final release, several development releases are launched: Alphas, Betas and Release Candidate.
<xdatap> Every cycle slightly changes his schedule, due several reason, but it's published since the beginning in a wiki page, so that everybody can be aware about what's going on.
<xdatap> You can see the Natty schedule on the following link:
<xdatap> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/NattyReleaseSchedule
<xdatap> For all these releases, we have several kind of tests.
<xdatap> The ISO Test is a test performed few days before the milestone release, in which we want to be sure that the installer works properly and the live version starts correctly.
<xdatap> We also test the upgrade process and the installation from windows with Wubi.
<xdatap> we have a question
<ClassBot> MeanEYE asked: Does testing in virtualization software counts?
<xdatap> altough there isn't a useless test, we would like you try your hardware during tests
<xdatap> if you can't install ubuntu on your pc you can still perform the LIVE test
<xdatap> The tool for reporting this kind of test is called ISO Tracker and it's available on the following link:
<xdatap> http://iso.qa.ubuntu.com
<xdatap> As you can see we are testing Natty Beta1 in all the officially supported flavors. These tests started today :)
<xdatap> For each flavor you can find several test case.
<xdatap> we have another question
<ClassBot> MeanEYE asked: Should we prioritize Ubuntu Desktop over Server edition in testing?!
<xdatap> We will cover all the images on the ISO Tracker. We will not release Ubuntu if an official image is not tested.
<xdatap> As community member you're invited to prioritize the image you care
<xdatap> and if you want to help, take a look of the images not well covered and give us an hand :)
<xdatap> let's talk about "testcase"
<xdatap> A test case is a list of action to perform in order to complete the test.
<xdatap> If you are able to perform all the actions successfully it mean that the test is PASSED.
<xdatap> Otherwise it means that the test is FAILED.
<xdatap> Often you will find bugs which does not makes FAILED your test. It's useful that you will report it on launchpad and you will include their IDs in the test report.
<xdatap> You can see how to report a test on the following link:
<xdatap> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Testing/ISO/Procedures
<xdatap> As described on the page above, filling your account on the ISO Tracker with your email and selecting the Email notification flag you will get an email each time there's a new image available for tests.
<xdatap> You can choose which test case you want to test in which image so the email will contain the direct link for the test.
<xdatap> To avoid to download the image every time I recommend to use zsync or rsync, as described on the following link:
<xdatap> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/ZsyncCdImage
<xdatap> any question about what covered until now?
<xdatap> ok, let's going on
<xdatap> ISO Testing it's not the only test we perform over the CD Images.
<xdatap> We have also different test programs like Laptop, Video Drivers, Desktop, etc.
<xdatap> What's the difference? Basically it changes WHAT we test and WHEN.
<xdatap> One example: Laptop testing perform tests after each Milestone release and with the previous stable releases providing testcases for the hardware compatibility:
<xdatap> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Testing/Laptop
<xdatap> Xorg tests the nVidia Video Card Proprietary Drivers every week:
<xdatap> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/X/Testing/ProprietaryDrivers/Natty/WeeklyProgram
<xdatap> Once you learn how to contribute to one program, like ISO Testing, you will be able to easily contribute to all of these tests because the tools are the same.
<xdatap> we've a question
<ClassBot> chadadavis asked: I see people testing 20110328.1 as 'beta 1'? Should we not be waiting for an 'official' beta, or are these the same?
<xdatap> as I said, we're actually testing the beta images before it's release. So we're checking if live session works, if installer works, etc
<xdatap> after we will release the image we will test the rest: desktop, application, etc
<xdatap> so, if you want to help now, you can test the images on the tracker before their release
<xdatap> later you can test the milestone more deeply
<ClassBot> chadadavis asked: Is ATI driver testing still planned? Or are we waiting on AMD to make an update for the current kernel still?
<xdatap> I've no info about ATI testing next weeks. We started testing nVidia two weeks ago. Try send an email to QA ML: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-qa to be sure
<ClassBot> ask asked: is best an Intel q9400 or a Intel q6600 ?
<xdatap> honestly I don't really know :) Best for what? Try ask on the forum or ask Ubuntu website :)
<xdatap> let's going on, and let's talk about LoCo Teams
<xdatap> If you are involved in a LoCo and you're interested in ISO Testing take also a look at the LoCo Testing Team How To:
<xdatap> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Testing/LoCoTeam
<xdatap> How it works? You can setup a team inside your LoCo, choose a test to "adopt" and then divide the effort with your team members.
<xdatap> The Italian experience shown that organizing this kind of activity helps in gathering new contributors and keeping them motivated.
<xdatap> Take a look on the survey I made before last UDS, you will find very interesting data about it:
<xdatap> http://xdatap1.wordpress.com/2010/12/04/italian-loco-testing-team-survey/
<xdatap> we've another question
<ClassBot> chadadavis asked: It sounds like ISO testing is primarily a sanity check of the ISO image, the boot, the video driver, the live image, before it can be tagged 'beta' for more exhaustive 'Desktop testing' ?
<xdatap> exactly, we do tests on the ISO Image before more extensive tests
<xdatap> and we do it every MILESTONE: Alpha1 Alpha2 AlphaN, Betas and Release Candidates
<xdatap> In the Italian Team we adopted the Live Testcase. I was looking for something very easy to attract new contributors. And it worked! :)
<xdatap> Live test is a very good way to start learning all the test process, IMHO
<xdatap> and keep talking about LoCo Teams...
<xdatap> The Ubuntu Hall of Fame shows test results per LoCo, so it's nice to play a competition between LoCo in testing:
<xdatap> http://hall-of-fame.ubuntu.com
<xdatap> So, how to start with ISO Testing?
<xdatap> Take a look at the QA Website (http://qa.ubuntu.com) and at the Testing page:
<xdatap> http://qa.ubuntu.com/testing/
<xdatap> Join the QA Mailing List (https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-qa) and for any question you will find us in the #ubuntu-testing IRC Channel.
<xdatap> Ubuntu Testing: Let's make this rock!
<xdatap> :)
<xdatap> time for Question and Answer!
<ClassBot> chadadavis asked: who/where/how do I send feedback regarding issues that should land in the release notes for the beta 1? I guess anything gets filed as a bug first, and then?
<xdatap> yes, the first place is launchpad, filling a bug. Then, if you fill a test in the ISO Tracker you'll have the field where insert the bug id. If you're in doubt about the specific bug you can find the team on irc, #ubuntu-testing and on the QA Mailing list
<ClassBot> There are 10 minutes remaining in the current session.
<ClassBot> chadadavis asked: is there supposed to be one testing group per ISO? Because there are Mac-specific ISO, but all the amd64 tests seem to be grouped together.
<xdatap> no, how the images are listed on the tracker doesn't reflect the teams working on it
<ClassBot> There are 5 minutes remaining in the current session.
<xdatap> afaik the images are listed in build order
<xdatap> I hope I answered the question
<ClassBot> MeanEYE asked: Is 700MB limit just a fictional limit invented to keep Ubuntu small and agile. Do you see this increasing in size?
<xdatap> the limit is because the CD can handle 700mb maximum
<xdatap> and we want to ship CDs, not DVD or othere media
<ClassBot> Logs for this session will be available at http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2011/03/28/%23ubuntu-classroom.html
* ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to the Ubuntu Classroom - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Classroom || Support in #ubuntu || Upcoming Schedule: http://is.gd/8rtIi || Questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat ||
<pleia2> if you missed any sessions today, I've linked to the logs for each session on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuGlobalJamBootcamp
#ubuntu-classroom 2011-03-29
<pourjour> #ubuntu-classroom-chat
#ubuntu-classroom 2011-03-30
<akld_citylights>  #ubuntu-classroom-chat
#ubuntu-classroom 2011-03-31
<Asymptote> test
 * Asymptote woah
<DragoRosso1982> hi
#ubuntu-classroom 2011-04-01
<jsjgruber_> testing new lernid ubuntu version from here
<leoquant> new version would be great
<sebsebseb> hi
 * jcastro taps the mic
<jcastro> 5 minutes until the next Q+A
<jcastro> Q and A with David Mandala, ARM Engineering Manager
<jcastro> Alright welcome everyone
<jcastro> welcome to our series of Q+A sessions with managers at Canonical
<jcastro> up today we have David Mandala, ARM Engineering manager for Ubuntu
<jcastro> he's going to introduce himself
<jcastro> so start thinking about your questions
<davidm> Hi Everyone, I'm David Mandala, I'm the manager of the Ubuntu ARM team and have been working on ARM for the last couple of years within Ubuntu
* ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to the Ubuntu Classroom - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Classroom || Support in #ubuntu || Upcoming Schedule: http://is.gd/8rtIi || Questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat || Current Session: Q and A with David Mandala, ARM Engineering Manager - Instructors: davidm
<jcastro> and ask them with QUESTION: in the #ubuntu-classroom-chat channel
<jcastro> and then we'll get started
<ClassBot> Logs for this session will be available at http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2011/04/01/%23ubuntu-classroom.html following the conclusion of the session.
<jcastro> so without further delay, take it away davidm!
<davidm> I am happy to try and answer your questions about Ubuntu ARM
<jcastro> while people start to queue up questions why don't you tell us about yourself
<jcastro> and your team
<jcastro> and what it is your team does
<davidm> The ARM team is fairly small, we enable different ARM system on chip designed to run Ubuntu Netbook
<davidm> To date we enabled the Freescale iMX51, the Marvell Dove, the TI OMAP 3 and TI OMAP 4 SoC's
<davidm> The Ubuntu 10.10 contains images for Marvell and TI OMAP 3 and 4
<ClassBot> davidcalle asked: What's your feeling about Unity 2D?
<davidm> I think Unity 2D is really nice on ARM.  One of our challenges with ARM is the accelerated graphics stack is usually proprietary
<davidm> I think Unity 2D is lightweight and runs really really well with out acceleration
<ClassBot> bjf asked: when will ubuntu start producing arm images targeted specifically at arm server ?
<davidm> We are producing a headless image this cycle and I think specific ARM server images will follow on very soon
<davidm> possibly as soon as the next cycle but its not completely clear today
<ClassBot> bjf asked: What is the currently recommended HW platform for someone wanting to get started, playing with ubuntu on ARM ?
<davidm> I personally like the TI Panda board, we have images and drivers for that board in the upcoming release.  You can also use a Beagle or BeagleXM all of the boards are sub $200 USD
<davidm> The beagle is a little low on RAM for the netbook image, The Beagle XM and Panda have more RAM
<ClassBot> sebsebseb asked: Some people go on about ARM, but what's so special about it really, not just for Ubuntu, but in general?
<davidm> ARM is a very very low power architecture, using milli watts or 1-2 watts vs other chip families that use 50+ watts or even hundreds of watts
<davidm> most folks today that have a cell phone are carrying an ARM device, nearly all cell phones use ARM SoC's
<davidm> So think in terms of many many hours of battery life and no fans in designs
<ClassBot> davidcalle asked: Can you tell us what companies/vendors will ship 11.04 on arm?
<davidm> 11.04 will ship with Netbook images for Texas Instruments (TI) OMAP 3 and OMAP 4.  There will also be headless serial port images for both TI SoC's
<ClassBot> davidcalle asked: What is your team going to focus on during the next cycle?
<davidm> Well we never quite know for sure what new SoC's might be in the pipeline but we expect to continue with the TI SoC's and perhaps some others as low cost boards become available to the community
<ClassBot> sebsebseb asked: Do you think Ubuntu might eventually have a version for mobilephones/smartphones?
<davidm> That is a good question, but I don't know the answer really.  We might, certainly Unity and Unity 2D are targeted to making better use of small screens.  But cell phones have a really small screen so if it happens it will need applications that work on that size screen
<davidm> We don't have many of those today for sure.  The ARM team is working hard with upstreams to fix application window sizes just to properly fit netbooks today
<ClassBot> popey asked: Why is it that the latest ARM laptop on the market (Hercules http://www.hercules.com/uk/ecafe/bdd/p/156/ecafe-trade-ex-hd-black-/ ) looks like it uses Ubuntu and should be applauded, but doesn't even mention Ubuntu on the site? No OEM license?
<davidm> Well I can't talk to the specifics in this case, it's the first I've seen this netbook.  I am really happy to see Ubuntu ARM being used.  From my quick look at it just now it does indeed look like it's using Ubuntu ARM images.  All I can say is yea! Folks are using what we make :-)
<ClassBot> popey asked: How much longer do we have to wait for ARM to deliver credible alternative laptops to x86? (I can name only two ARM laptops that actually ship off the top of my head)
<davidm> Sorry my Crystal ball is broken today ;-P
<jcastro> heh
<davidm> That said I hope to see more and more netbooks shipping over the next year, I was able to buy a Toshiba AC100 over the counter in the UK 4 months ago.  Granted is was not running Ubuntu but it is really really nice.  And the community was nice enough to get Ubuntu running on it :-)
<davidm> So the stream has started, I hope it turns into a flood over the next 12 - 18 months
<ClassBot> sebsebseb asked: Will Ubuntu Light be available for download?
<davidm> Sorry I don't know much about Ubuntu Light, it was designed to provide a super fast boot to check email and web.  I have no idea where it's at today, there does seem to be less demand for such technology as boot speeds on Ubuntu are much faster then they were even a year ago.
<davidm> My team did not work on that project sorry I can't tell you more, I just don't know more.
<davidm> Wow no questions in the queue
<davidm> Either I've done a great job at answering your questions or such a bad job you have all run away screaming
<ClassBot> sebsebseb asked: If Canonical gets much more invovled with ARM Linux, will it maybe help other distros sometimes with this as well?
<davidm> sebsebseb I'm not sure I understand the question, but here goes:  We work hard to make sure the entire archive works with ARMv7 hardware and we push fixes upstream when we find issues with code that works with x86 and not on ARM.  For example we found that mono on ARM was very broken and folks on my team have been working hard with upstream to fix that
<davidm> So from the point of view of over all increasing the quality of applications running on ARM we do that
<davidm> in terms of helping other distro's build ARM version of their distro's no that we don't do.  As I said at the beginning we are a very small team.
<ClassBot> davidcalle asked: How do you feel about Linaro?
<davidm> I think that Linaro is very important
<davidm> If you want to develop applications on X86 it's trivial to do the same on ARM is harder.  Linaro is helping to make developing both applications and products on ARM as easy as it is today on X86
<davidm> Today its nearly impossible to boot the same ARM kernel on more then a single board, you actually need to change settings and  recompile for each platform and board supported.
<davidm> Linaro is working to change that.
<davidm> On x86 Ubuntu effectively has two kernels a 32 bit and a 64 bit kernel.  On ARM we have had lots more then that just to support a hand full of SoC's
<davidm> There is a lot more that Linaro is doing but they can tell you more I'm sure
<ClassBot> sebsebseb asked: Yeah, but I meant if the ARM team at Canonical was much bigger, would it then maybe help other distro's make ARM versions of their distros sometimes?
<davidm> Not really, our job is to work on Ubuntu ARM not on brand x ARM.  As I said we are concerned about making ARM applications better, but each distro has different goals different desires.  We will stay focused on Ubuntu not other distro's
<davidm> More questions?
<ClassBot> davidcalle asked: could you or your team make a video of an arm device booting and running Unity 2D?
<davidm> Wow, nice question, and oddly enough something I had never thought of.  I don't see why we could not.
<davidm> I'll get it done, perhaps not until after release we are really tight jammed up testing and closing as many bugs as we can, but perhaps right after release
 * davidm slaps his head, what a great idea!
<davidm> Folks we have about 145 minutes left more questions?
<davidm> Folks we have about 13 minutes left more questions? (fix typo) ;-D
<davidm> It is harder to do this then I thought.  If you get your fingers moving too fast you spend a lot of time looking for typo's
<davidm> Anyway, grap a board (they are pretty cheap) jump in we have some nice images to work with and help close bugs and fix screen size issues. :-)
<ClassBot> GrueMaster asked: What is the best way for the community to add input to the devlopment process of arm images?
<davidm> Great question
<davidm> :-)
<davidm> Well there are several things you can do: 1) Attend UDS, come with ideas and be ready to help. 2) Jump into #ubuntu-arm and make suggestions and also be willing to help
<davidm> hmm several???? That was two
<ClassBot> There are 10 minutes remaining in the current session.
<davidm> come into #ubuntu-devel and make suggestions and again be willing to help
<davidm> The nice part is for the last couple if years it's been nearly impossible to get hardware.  That has changed, you can get a Panda board, you can get Beagle boards
<davidm> That means you can test, develop and share your ideas far more easily then ever before.
<davidm> I really look forward to all of you showing up in #ubuntu-arm and jumping into the pool.  It's fun.
<davidm> I think that Linaro might be doing more with Android not sure you may want to ask in the Linaro mailing lists or irc channels
<davidm> Sorry I don't know more for sure
<davidm>  thanks for coming today, this was fun
 * davidm has clearly lost his marbles and needs help finding them
<ClassBot> There are 5 minutes remaining in the current session.
<davidm> Anyone finding davidm's marbles please bring them to #ubuntu-arm so he can gather them up and put them back in place
<davidm> OK just about out of time, if you have more questions at any time come one over and ask them in #ubuntu-arm
<davidm> thanks again for your time and questions
<jcastro> thanks everyone for stopping by!
<ClassBot> Logs for this session will be available at http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2011/04/01/%23ubuntu-classroom.html
* ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to the Ubuntu Classroom - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Classroom || Support in #ubuntu || Upcoming Schedule: http://is.gd/8rtIi || Questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat ||
<bebe> Hi everybody! Iá¸¿ looking for a moderator for facebooks "ubuntu" group. IÇe got the tipp to search for one here... Thank you!
<serfus> bebe, this is actually not the right place
<serfus> bebe, if i am correct jono bacon is the facebook group owner
<bebe> Oh thank you!
<serfus> bebe, why don't you just send him a message through facebook?
<bebe> I came here via this site: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/WeeklyQandA?action=AttachFile...
<bebe> After knowing his name (thank you again) iÄºl try to contact him on facebook.
<bebe> Ah- i have found him on facebook. Great!
<bebe> @serfus: I wrote to Jono- i think, you helped very much! Thank you, have a good time! Cheers!
<meetingology> bebe: Error: "serfus:" is not a valid command.
#ubuntu-classroom 2011-04-03
<UndiFineD> jsjgruber asked: test
<dskpajurys> sveiki'
<brucelu_> test
<head_victim> brucelu: working fine
<head_victim> !classroom
<ubot2> The Ubuntu Classroom is a project which aims to tutor users about Ubuntu, Kubuntu and Xubuntu through biweekly sessions in #ubuntu-classroom - For more information visit https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Classroom
<head_victim> !schedule
<ubot2> To view the upcoming Ubuntu Classroom schedule, visit the Learning Events Calendar at http://people.ubuntu.com/~nhandler/classroom.html
<head_victim> brucelu: ^
<Stargaze> hello
<Stargaze> all
<Stargaze> anyone here?
<pavanai> i got struck while booting to ubuntu ultimate edition 2.8
<pavanai> JasonO, do u know d solution?
<JasonO> pavanai What is it?
<JasonO> pavanai I just got here. I have no idea what you're talking about.
<pavanai> JasonO, i tried to boot 2 live of ubuntu uE 2.8  the logo is showing after that no progress
<JasonO> pavanai Sorry, no idea. Let me see what I can do....
<pavanai> JasonO, how to enable nx feature in bios?
<JasonO> pavanai I do not know what the nx feature is.
<pavanai> its non executable bit
<pavanai> i ahve to enable that in this machine but dont know how
<JasonO> pavanai What package is it?
<pavanai> JasonO, its not a pkg
<JasonO> pavanai What is it?>
<pavanai> its a security feature offered by processor
<JasonO> And qwhat are you trying to do exactly?
<pavanai> i want to enable nx
<pavanai> jst to install ubuntu ue2.8
<JasonO> pavanai ARe you aware their is a 2.9?
<JasonO> pavanai Here is 2.8 http://sourceforge.net/projects/ultimateedition/files/ultimate-edition-2.8-x86.iso/download
#ubuntu-classroom 2012-03-30
<sysFailure> i'm new to linux, ubuntu and was wondering if there is a list of commands for the command line?
<sysFailure> old goat trying to learn a new lang.
<sysFailure> leave
<Mkaysi> Try waiting a litte
#ubuntu-classroom 2012-04-01
<adithya> hello everyone
<qubodup> hi
<tommyfun> Hi, is this channel  a ubuntu classroom or about running ubuntu in a classroom?
<ulasssssssssss> ...............
<pleia2> tommyfun: we teach classes here in this channel
#ubuntu-classroom 2013-03-25
<elpran> :-/
#ubuntu-classroom 2015-03-25
<cestdiego> Hi
