#ubuntu-manual 2010-04-12
<humphreybc> hi all
 * pleia2 waves to humphreybc 
<humphreybc> ah! hi!
<humphreybc> why am I getting an unexpected indent error?
<humphreybc> http://paste.ubuntu.com/412854/
<humphreybc> wait what
<humphreybc> weird
<humphreybc> gedit is playing tricks on me
<Red_HamsterX> I think you're supposed to be returning those values.
<Red_HamsterX> Rather than printing them.
<humphreybc> one of the reasons it wasn't working is because gedit is doing something weird with indentation
<Red_HamsterX> Dut I dunno for sure.
<Red_HamsterX> It looks like gedit is set to use tabs instead of spaces.
<Red_HamsterX> Four spaces is the PEP 8 convention.
<Red_HamsterX> You can quickly change this by clicking stuff in the lower right of the gedit window.
<humphreybc> yeah
<humphreybc> i found that
<humphreybc> is there a more elegant way of doing the maximum function?
<humphreybc> (this is practice for a lab test I have on wednesday)
<Red_HamsterX> return max(a, b, ...)
<Red_HamsterX> max takes any number of arguments or a sequence.
<Red_HamsterX> x = (1, 2, 3,)
<Red_HamsterX> max(x)
<Red_HamsterX> max(888, 777)
<Red_HamsterX> Also, you're using 'or' wrong.
<humphreybc> i'm getting stuff like this
<humphreybc> Expected: JimBob
<humphreybc> Got: 'JimBob'
<humphreybc> how can I return it without the single quotes?
<Red_HamsterX> Paste your new code.
<humphreybc> http://paste.ubuntu.com/412860/
<Red_HamsterX> Regarding using 'or' wrong: that should be 'a > b and a > c'.
<Red_HamsterX> You need to do two tests, logically.
<humphreybc> oh yeah, of course
<Red_HamsterX> 'False or c' is valid, but it won't do what you expect.
<Red_HamsterX> If c is non-zero, the entire condition will evaluate to whatever c happens to be.
<godbyk> What's the point of writing your own maximum function if it just calls Python's built-in max() function?
<humphreybc> so i'm getting two failures for the two string things
<humphreybc> godbyk, it's just testing our knowledge of python stuff
<Red_HamsterX> "False or 'dance'" -> 'dance'
<godbyk> I see.
<humphreybc> how can I return a string as string instead of 'string' ?
<Red_HamsterX> It is being returned as a string.
<Red_HamsterX> Does it pass if you do use print?
<Red_HamsterX> Maybe the tester's watching stdout instead of return values.
 * Red_HamsterX doesn't know.
<humphreybc> yeah
<humphreybc> it does
<Red_HamsterX> Then your instructor's weird.
<humphreybc> well, the only goal of the test is to make the doctests pass... so all 10 passed
<Red_HamsterX> Just print, in that case.
<humphreybc> now, onto the next one
<humphreybc> (there are 4)
<humphreybc> :)
<Red_HamsterX> Als, for is_divisible, you would just write 'return a % b == 0' or 'return not a % b'.
<Red_HamsterX> you could*
<humphreybc> i don't understand what I have to do for the first one, compare()
<humphreybc> http://paste.ubuntu.com/412861/
<Red_HamsterX> The result of an == comparison is always a boolean value.
<Red_HamsterX> If a > b: +1
<Red_HamsterX> If a < b: -1
<Red_HamsterX> Else: 0
<Red_HamsterX> Python has a built-in for this, too.
<humphreybc> ah
<humphreybc> oh it does?
<Red_HamsterX> You can probably guess at what it is.
<Red_HamsterX> Like max() or min().
<humphreybc> compare?
<Red_HamsterX> dir() is your friend.
<godbyk> You can write your own cmp functions for doing fancy comparisons. I've had to write them before.
<Red_HamsterX> Learn to love it.
<Red_HamsterX> Things surrounded by __s are often exposed through like-named language-level functions.
<humphreybc> how to do the count_vowels function? something like 'if 'a' 'e' 'i' 'o' 'u' in count_vowels?
<Red_HamsterX> There are a number of ways to do it.
<Red_HamsterX> Look at what dir() has to say about a string.
<Red_HamsterX> There's a better way to solve this problem, but I think your instructor would be suspicious if you were to use it.
<Red_HamsterX> And you'd miss something important about Python's design if I were to just show you.
<humphreybc> find?
<Red_HamsterX> help(''.find)
<Red_HamsterX> Does that look like what you want?
<humphreybc> return sentence.find("a", "e", "i", "o", "u")
<humphreybc> ?
<Red_HamsterX> No, that won't pass the syntax compiler.
<Red_HamsterX> And it's not what you want to do anyway.
<Red_HamsterX> It'd fail the second test. And the others, for that matter.
<Red_HamsterX> Look at the list of attributes attached to a string again.
<humphreybc> ugh
<humphreybc> okay
<Red_HamsterX> I'm not going to just give you the answers. It's not like you have something due in a couple of hours, after all.
<humphreybc> lol yeah
<Red_HamsterX> When in doubt, try things in the interpreter.
<Red_HamsterX> "test string".find('e') would give you 1, but "test string".find('i') would give you 8.
<humphreybc> right
<humphreybc> so it's returning the index
<Red_HamsterX> Yeah.
<Red_HamsterX> There's another function that'll help, though.
<humphreybc> count
<Red_HamsterX> Look at its help text and figure out how to apply it.
<Red_HamsterX> help() renders the object's docstring.
<Red_HamsterX> Just so you know where it's pulling that data from.
<Red_HamsterX> The docstring is the unassigned string at the start of any function/class/whatever.
<humphreybc> okay, so, on Hello World I ran sentence.count("o") and it returned 2
<humphreybc> so it's workiung
<humphreybc> but then apparently it only takes at most 3 arguments
<Red_HamsterX> It's morning in Austrailia/New Zealand, right?
<humphreybc> 1:46pm
<Red_HamsterX> Ah. Later than I thought.
<humphreybc> so do I have to create a variable called "vowels" that's a list of the things I want to find?
<humphreybc> and then run sentence.count(vowels) ?
<Red_HamsterX> No.
<Red_HamsterX> It doesn't work that way.
<Red_HamsterX> You're going to have to call it five times.
<Red_HamsterX> (Ten if you need to account for capitals and don't lowercase the string before scanning it)
<humphreybc> okay
<humphreybc> so firstly I should go sentence.lower()
<humphreybc> I don't understand how I can call count 5 times, then add each return value together... do I have to assign each call of count to a different variable and then add them up, then return that value?
<Red_HamsterX> You could.
<humphreybc> or could you put all of that into one statement?
<Red_HamsterX> Variables in Python are not immutable, as they are in math or languages like Haskell.
<Red_HamsterX> You could do that, too.
<Red_HamsterX> ''.count() + ''.count()...
<Red_HamsterX> x = ''.count('a')
<Red_HamsterX> x += ''.count('e')
<Red_HamsterX> return x
<Red_HamsterX> That's probably the cleanest way to write it.
<Red_HamsterX> (Barring the advanced technique I mentioned before)
<humphreybc> http://paste.ubuntu.com/412871/
<Red_HamsterX> You could return it directly, if you really wanted to save a line.
<Red_HamsterX> But there's still a problem.
<Red_HamsterX> sentence.lower() returns a new string.
<Red_HamsterX> It doesn't modify sentence.
<Red_HamsterX> Also, variable names like 'x' are icky.
<humphreybc> so i have to assign it
<humphreybc> sentence = sentence.lower()
<humphreybc> return = sentence.count("a") + sentence.count("e") + sentence.count("i") + sentence.count("o") + sentence.count("u")
<humphreybc> like that?
<Red_HamsterX> You can assign it to 'sentence', but that's commonly frowned upon for non-trivial code.
<Red_HamsterX> So it's a good habint to avoid.
<humphreybc> right
<Red_HamsterX> habit*
<humphreybc> so assign it to say, S
<humphreybc> and then run count on S
<Red_HamsterX> Yeah, that works.
<humphreybc> ok
<Red_HamsterX> Don't try to show this to your instructor ('cause it'll be obvious you get help), but you could do the whole thing in one line.
<humphreybc> k
<Red_HamsterX> return len([v for v in sentence.lower() if v in ('a', 'e', 'i', 'o', 'u',)])
<Red_HamsterX> You'll figure out how it works eventually.
<humphreybc> righto
<humphreybc> okay i've got all the ones in this except the count_words() function
<humphreybc> so I have to count something and make it split on a white space
<Red_HamsterX> Look at the dir() result again.
<Red_HamsterX> I assume you can consider all input sane.
<Red_HamsterX> So you won't have tabs or non-space delimiters.
<humphreybc> yeah
<humphreybc> i've done something like this before
<humphreybc> i'm just trying to find where
<humphreybc> so I use split
<humphreybc> but i don't understand how
<humphreybc> i've got S = sentence.split()
<humphreybc> then count(S) ? or S.count(S)? S.count() ?
<Red_HamsterX> count() isn't what you want.
<Red_HamsterX> help(len)
<humphreybc> oh
<humphreybc> that did it =]
<Red_HamsterX> You might want to do sentence.strip().split(), just in case there's a leading or trailing space.
<humphreybc> knowing the library of builtin functions is pretty helpful
<Red_HamsterX> And actually iterate over the tokens to discard empty ones.
<Red_HamsterX> But that's not necessary here.
<humphreybc> right i'm going to get something to eat
<humphreybc> then i'll start on part 3
 * humphreybc thinks that programming might not be for him
<Red_HamsterX> It's your first exposure.
<Red_HamsterX> Most people find thinking in a C-like mindset hard to do initially.
<Red_HamsterX> If you've got a math background, look into Haskell.
<humphreybc> it's not the first time, i did PHP and HTML in high school, then last year I did java
<humphreybc> i've never really been that good at it
<humphreybc> i understand the logic but I can just never, ever remember syntax or methods of doing stuff
<humphreybc> maybe as I write more stuff i'll
<humphreybc> i'll remember the syntax better*
<Red_HamsterX> The most meaningful advice I can give you about Python is probably that clarity is more important than efficiency. Most people who primarily use Python tend to adopt that mindset.
<Red_HamsterX> When writing code, try to focus on making the logic obvious.
<Red_HamsterX> That may help you to think things through and make it all easier to understand.
<ubuntujenkins> morning all
 * ubuntujenkins hates python when it doesn't work
<ubuntujenkins> back working in english and not siberian
<ubuntujenkins> serbian or how ever it is spelt
<ubuntujenkins> hello all
<dutchie> o/
<dutchie> is there anything I ought to do before my battery dies?
<ubuntujenkins> hello dutchie not as far as i know. You could reinvent the wheel if you have time :P
<dutchie> hmm, 3 hours 25 and food in 10 mins
<dutchie> I think not
<ubuntujenkins> Red_HamsterX: ping
<Red_HamsterX> Hi, ubuntujenkins.
<ubuntujenkins> hello can you look over my last commit http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~quickshotdevs/quickshot/quickshot/revision/228 it works, I would just like you to see if i have done anything silly
<ubuntujenkins> also there appears to be some progress on the bug i filed with python
<Red_HamsterX> Setting the variable's value to 1 is unnecessary
<Red_HamsterX> except ...:
<Red_HamsterX>  short_code = os.environ.get('LANG')
<Red_HamsterX>  if not short_code: raise (some custom error)
<Red_HamsterX> Other than that, it should work.
<popey> can someone get ben to ping me when he's online
<ubuntujenkins> Red_HamsterX: well i couldn't get it to work this moring before i went out with out the =1 bit i will have a go again in a second if i ddin't
<ubuntujenkins> popey: i will if i am still up
<ubuntujenkins> brb changing language
 * ubuntujenkins ubuntu serbian is intersting
<Red_HamsterX> Is it significantly different from, say, Russian?
 * Red_HamsterX doesn't know anything about Serbian.
<ubuntujenkins> just the person with the code changed to
<ubuntujenkins>         
<ubuntujenkins>         try:
<ubuntujenkins>             short_code = locale.getdefaultlocale()[0]
<ubuntujenkins>         except ValueError, e:
<ubuntujenkins>             #error-log-write("Unable to process locale: %(error)s" % {'error': str(e)})
<ubuntujenkins>             #this happens when the language code isn't in the module
<ubuntujenkins>             
<ubuntujenkins>         if not short_code:
<ubuntujenkins>             short_code = os.environ['LANG']
<ubuntujenkins>         applied_short_code = short_code
<ubuntujenkins> I get an indentaion error i changed the location of the not and removed one line .not my day as usual
<ubuntujenkins> i haven't looked at russian I just navigate by knowing where to find stuff
<ubuntujenkins> aaahhh spotted the indentaion error but now i get UnboundLocalError: local variable 'short_code' referenced before assignment
<ubuntujenkins> i had this this morning which is why the short_code = 1 was there
<ubuntujenkins> Red_HamsterX: sorry please can you help me
<Red_HamsterX> Sure.
<Red_HamsterX> Is the code current or can you paste the function?
<ubuntujenkins> Red_HamsterX: let me paste it
<ubuntujenkins>         try:
<ubuntujenkins>             short_code = locale.getdefaultlocale()[0]
<ubuntujenkins>         except ValueError, e:
<ubuntujenkins>             logging.getLogger().debug("Unable to process locale: %(error)s" % {'error': str(e)})
<ubuntujenkins>             #this happens when the language code isn't in the module
<ubuntujenkins>             #short_code = 1
<ubuntujenkins>             if not short_code:
<ubuntujenkins>                 short_code = os.environ['LANG']
<ubuntujenkins>         applied_short_code = short_code
<ubuntujenkins> http://pad.ubuntu-uk.org/ZpWtZE8opJ
 * ubuntujenkins etherpad should do python highlighting
<Daviey> ubuntujenkins: raise a bug :)
<ubuntujenkins> Daviey: where do i file it?
<ubuntujenkins> and against what ubuntu uk team?
<Red_HamsterX> ubuntujenkins, the problem is that the 'if' occurs before the short code is assigned.
<ubuntujenkins> thats why i have short_code =1
<Red_HamsterX> When the assignment fails, short_code isn't left in some half-declared state.
<Red_HamsterX> You can assume it was never set when entering the exception handler.
<Red_HamsterX> So just drop the 'if' entirely.
<Daviey> ubuntujenkins: will talk later, recording a podcast atm
<Daviey> and humphreybc is supposed to be our guest
<Daviey> but he's offline :(
<ubuntujenkins> ok Daviey have fun
<ubuntujenkins> thnaks Red_HamsterX that makes sense obvious as usual
<Red_HamsterX> ubuntujenkins, the error is raised by the call to getdefaultlocale(). Since that fails, nothing is actually returned, so Python jumps directly to the exception handler, bypassing the assignment step entirely.
 * Red_HamsterX goes into way too much detail.
<ubuntujenkins> and as the variable is not assigned the if test isn't needed.
<Red_HamsterX> Yep.
<ubuntujenkins> detail is good helps me to understand
<Red_HamsterX> Python, unlike, say, Java, uses something very much like a dict to manage variables.
<ubuntujenkins> thanks, i will do a release tonight to the ppas, and upload a cd tomorrow
<Red_HamsterX> You could think of each assignment like the following:
<Red_HamsterX> object = {}
<Red_HamsterX> #Assign to 'short_code':
<Red_HamsterX> object['short_code'] = 5
<Red_HamsterX> The dictionary has no value for the key until it's actually set.
<ubuntujenkins> ok makes sense thank you
<ubuntujenkins> dutchie: !!!
 * ubuntujenkins hopes dutchies battery hasn't died
<Daviey> anyone know where humphreybc is?
<ubuntujenkins> Daviey: I am keeping an eye on facebook to see if he comes on, i will shout at him if i see him
<ubuntujenkins> Daviey: he could have got daylight savings utc an gmt messed up
<Daviey> ubuntujenkins: thanks
 * ubuntujenkins has found someone else who has the same locale big we have :-)
<ubuntujenkins> *big
<ubuntujenkins> ***bug
<ubuntujenkins> brb swapping to english
<Red_HamsterX> English is overrated.
<Red_HamsterX> Needs more Turkish.
<ubuntujenkins> its easier to use rather than navigating by memory or icons
<ubuntujenkins> night all
#ubuntu-manual 2010-04-13
<humphreybc> godbyk, i've triaged all those new bugs
<godbyk> humphreybc: cool, thanks!
<godbyk> Hey, thorwil. Have you played around with the title pages at all?  (More specifically, are you waiting on me for anything. I can't remember where we left off.)
<thorwil> godbyk: last thing was you told me i shouldn't tweak the translated versions yet
<godbyk> okay.
<godbyk> wonder why I said that. :-)
<godbyk> did I need to script anything more? do you recall?
<thorwil> godbyk: and 10.04 should be text figures in all languages with latin characters (at least)
<godbyk> hmm..
<godbyk> let me see what I can do there.
<thorwil> ok
<godbyk> thorwil: I've updated the script to use text figures.
<godbyk> It will take the translated string and replace 10.04 (lining figures) with text figures.
<godbyk> It will take the translated string and replace 10.04 (lining figures) with text figures.
<godbyk> (not sure why that got posted twice.)
<godbyk> committing the code now.
<godbyk> (while I wait for inkscape to load.)
<godbyk> thorwil: I've pushed the updated script to the main branch if you want to try it.
<godbyk> If you think of anything else I should have the script do, let me know.
<godbyk> Otherwise, feel free to dive in and start.
<godbyk> I'd recommend working on the translations that are the farthest along first.
<thorwil> of course
<thorwil> godbyk: where do we have an overview of translation progress?
<godbyk> thorwil: http://translations.launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual/
<godbyk> you can click on the Status column header (twice) to sort.
<thorwil> just did that. wow, galician before german
<godbyk> Yeah, the Galician translators have been making huge progress!
<humphreybc> question, if I want to return three things, but not as a list, how can I do that?
<godbyk> use a tuple.
<godbyk> return (x, y, z)
<humphreybc> so at the moment i've got 'return a, "is greater than", b
<humphreybc> and it's returning (3, "is greater than", 1)
<humphreybc> when it should be '3 is greater than 1'
<godbyk> oh, try: return "%s is greater than %s" % (a, b)
<humphreybc> what?
<humphreybc> percentage signs?
<godbyk> use %i instead of %s for integers.
<humphreybc> uh
<godbyk> if you write: "Hello, %s" % (name)
<godbyk> then it takes the name variable and sticks it in place of %s.
<godbyk> %s = string, %i = integer, etc.
<godbyk> otherwise, build your string first, assign it to a var, then return the var.
<godbyk> you could also do something like: return str(a) + " is greater than " + str(b)
<humphreybc> i see
<humphreybc> thanks, got it now :)
<godbyk> k
<humphreybc> godbyk, tell me why this isn't working http://paste.ubuntu.com/413530/
<godbyk> humphreybc: I think .sort() doesn't return a sorted list but sorts the list in place.
<humphreybc> right, but I've assigned it to something?
<humphreybc> at the moment it says "Expected x, got nothing"
<godbyk> >>> l = ["one", "two", "three", "four"]
<godbyk> >>> l.sort()
<godbyk> >>> print l
<godbyk> ['four', 'one', 'three', 'two']
<humphreybc> ...
<godbyk> so in your code, mylist itself is sorted after you call .sort().
<humphreybc> it is?
<humphreybc> i'm confused now
<godbyk> it is a bit confusing actually.
<godbyk> most functions return something.
<godbyk> but sort is different.  it sorts the list IN PLACE.
<godbyk> why? no clue.
<humphreybc> right
<humphreybc> that's what I thought already
<humphreybc> hence why I assigned it to a variable instead of just going mylist.sort()
<godbyk> I've been there, too. :)
 * humphreybc is really confused now
<godbyk> same with .reverse(), btw.
<godbyk> it reverse sorts in place, too.
<godbyk> you don't have to call sort() first.
<humphreybc> ohhhhh
<humphreybc> i got it now
<humphreybc> http://paste.ubuntu.com/413534/
<humphreybc> why didn't you just say I didn't need to assign it to a variable!
<humphreybc> :)
<godbyk> humphreybc: yes. you can remove line 18, though. it's not necessary.
<godbyk> wait, I may be wrong.
<godbyk> one sec.
<godbyk> yeah, I'm wrong, sorry.
<godbyk> it's good as is.
<humphreybc> lol
<humphreybc> what's the list method to return the number of items in a list?
<godbyk> len(mylist)
<humphreybc> thankyou
 * thorwil sees a lot LaTeX Warning: Marginpar on page * moved.
<godbyk> stupid internet connection.
<humphreybc> lol
<humphreybc> http://paste.ubuntu.com/413541/
<humphreybc> average(numbers) runs the first test which passes okay
<humphreybc> but the second one, it expects 7.25 but is getting 7.0
<humphreybc> why?
<godbyk> humphreybc: because it's doing integer arithmetic.
<humphreybc> ah
<godbyk> so it's divind an integer (numbers_sum) by another integer (numbers_length) which results in an integer.
<godbyk> then you're casting that integer into a float.
<godbyk> so you need to say float(numbers_sum) / numbers_length.
<humphreybc> fixed it
<humphreybc> i casted numbers_length into a float before doing the maths
<humphreybc> thanks :)
<humphreybc> now, the final one!
<godbyk> that'll work.
<godbyk> as long as one of 'em is a float.
<humphreybc> so I need to slice the list from index position 1 to n-1
<humphreybc> and then perform the same thing on it, find the average
<humphreybc> right?
<godbyk> 'kay.
<humphreybc> so how do I slice it?
<godbyk> mylist[1:5]
<humphreybc> where'd the 5 come from?
<godbyk> pretend n = 5 or thereabouts
<godbyk> it's just a made-up number.
<humphreybc> oh
<humphreybc> well how about we go numbers_length = len(numbers)
<godbyk> try it and see.
<humphreybc> and then go mylist[1:numbers_lenth-1]
<humphreybc> would that wokr?
<humphreybc> work*
<godbyk> btw, be sure to check whether your indicies are 0-based or 1-based.
<humphreybc> http://paste.ubuntu.com/413544/
<humphreybc> "Expected: 7.5, Got: 7.375"
<humphreybc> "Expecting: 2.75, Got: 2.125"
<humphreybc> so it's doing something
<godbyk> I don't understand why you're slicing the list.
<humphreybc> "give the average of the numbers excluding the biggest and smallest one"
<godbyk> yeah, I read that.
<humphreybc> ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
<humphreybc> man i'm an idiot
<humphreybc> biggest number and smallest number
<humphreybc> not the two at either end
<humphreybc> d'oh
<godbyk> might get away with it if you sorted the list first.
<humphreybc> oh
<humphreybc> weird. I just ran it through step by step in the interpreter
<humphreybc> each step seems to work properly
<humphreybc> it's sorting, then splitting (and the smallest and largest numbers have gone)
<humphreybc> ah
<humphreybc> i see
<humphreybc> it's dividing by the OLD length
<humphreybc> ah ha!
<humphreybc> got it
<humphreybc> godbyk's internet sucks
<humphreybc> thorwil: you around?
<thorwil> humphreybc: somewhat
<humphreybc> we just realized we'll need a full wrap-around cover if it's going to be printed with lulu (which it will be)
<humphreybc> ie, a spine and a back cover
<thorwil> nice
<humphreybc> :)
<humphreybc> feel like designing that for us?
<thorwil> humphreybc: din a4? how to determine the thickness of the spine?
<humphreybc> hm, we'll have to ask kevin in a sec
<thorwil> humphreybc: english only?
<humphreybc> heh, maybe
<humphreybc> hang on a sec
<humphreybc> (i'm on skype with godbyk but he's just gone away)
<thorwil> humphreybc: don't take it personal
<humphreybc> ?
<thorwil> "but he's just gone away"
<humphreybc> oh
<humphreybc> haha
<humphreybc> godbyk-android: i found it, you can come back now
<godbyk> back now
<godbyk> thorwil: the thickness of the spine: lulu.com has a calculator for that, but they're offline for now.
<thorwil> lunch, bbl
<godbyk> thorwil: when lulu.com comes back online, I'll look up the cover details for you and email it all to you.
<godbyk> stupid internet connection.
<godbyk> I'm giving up and going to sleep!
<humphreybc> godbyk, you seen this?
<humphreybc> http://etherpad.com/ep/blog/posts/transition-updateq
<humphreybc> http://etherpad.com/ep/blog/posts/transition-update
<humphreybc> oh i see, that's just for the main etherpad server
<Daviey> humphreybc: !
<Daviey> humphreybc: Where have you been?
<humphreybc> hi Daviey, i spoke to Alan earlier. I completely forgot and slept in!
<Daviey> humphreybc: heh, oh well :)
<humphreybc> yeah, sorry about that
<humphreybc> Last night I was like "Hmm... do I have anything on tomorrow morning.. nope, no lectures till midday."
<humphreybc> Absolutely forgot about the interview
<humphreybc> I think alan said you guys might be able to squeeze me in after Lucid or UDS, which is fine
<Daviey> humphreybc: yeah!
<humphreybc> :)
<Daviey> humphreybc: no problem, we managed to fill the space :)
<humphreybc> okay, good
<godbyk-android> humphreybc: yeah, etherpad has been shutting down for a while now.
<ubuntujenkins> hello all
<ubuntujenkins> Daviey: ping
<Daviey> ubuntujenkins: \o
<ubuntujenkins> hello, hope the recording went well, where can i file my etherpad bug?
<Daviey> ( ubuntujenkins you will have to be quick, about to go afk _
<Daviey> ubuntujenkins: ah yes..
<Daviey> ubuntujenkins: http://github.com/ether/pad/issues
<Daviey> afk :)
<ubuntujenkins> thanks Daviey
<sealview> hello everyone!
<sealview> I was wondering if I can be any help in desinging anything for the Manual
<ubuntujenkins> hello sealview, thorwil mostly deals with the artwork speak to him. I don't think he is around at the moment.
<sealview> thanksu-jenkins
<ubuntujenkins> no problem sealview, he is usualy around in abotu 2-3 hours time
<sealview> I see he is very busy, he has done amazing things
<komsas> hi godbyk, I see that you updated all manual translations, what about the web site translations update? We want to see all translations in the http://test.ubuntu-manual.org/.
<sealview> does any one here on-line handle with the translations authorization? I just have a question about it.
<komsas> sealview: that you mean authorization?
<komsas> what *
<sealview> I'm really sorry, I have found the team on the Launchpad, authorization = entities to approve suggestions for translation!
<thorwil> sealview: hi! the design for the first manual release is pretty much finished. it looks like we will need a wrap-around cover as option, but i will take care of that
<thorwil> sealview: the only other open design task is adjusting the text on translated covers
<thorwil> sealview: you could ask humphreybc if there's something needed for the website
<sealview> thanks thorwil
<ubuntujenkins> godbyk: I have added a new quickshot iso to the server if you couls update it all please, thanks
<sealview> thorwil: right now I'm working on the translations for my region
<thorwil> good
 * dutchie is back from Belgium
<godbyk> dutchie: \o/
<godbyk> dutchie: how'd it go?
<dutchie> tiringly
<dutchie> mysteriously, my laptop seems to have updated the bzr branch itself
<godbyk> nice.
<ubuntujenkins> evening all
<dutchie> ubuntujenkins: I needed an early night ;)
<ubuntujenkins> how did all the rowing go?
<dutchie> tiringly
<ubuntujenkins> lol
<dutchie> ubuntujenkins: what did you want the other day?
<godbyk> ubuntujenkins: I updated the ISO image and links for ya.
<ubuntujenkins> thanks godbyk
<ubuntujenkins> dutchie: I was hoping you could skype ben if he was on the uupc guys were after him
<popey> we have bens home number
<popey> but figured it rude to call him
<ubuntujenkins> did you get hold of him in the end?
<popey> not until 12 hours after we recorded
<popey> he forgot about it
<godbyk> he slept through the whole thing.
<popey> forgot to set the alarm :)
<ubuntujenkins> doh!
<godbyk> I figure popey et al. just filled the time talking smack about the project. ;-)
<popey> didnt mention it at all
<godbyk> That's too bad, it would've been fun. :)
<dutchie> time for bed, I think
<ubuntujenkins> night dutchie
<godbyk> g'night, dutchie.
 * ubuntujenkins thinks they have changes another icon in lucid
<ubuntujenkins> They HAVE :-/
<ubuntujenkins> they made the network icon smaller :P
<ubuntujenkins> I think it looks too narrow now
 * humphreybc needs help with python
<humphreybc> http://paste.ubuntu.com/413917/
<godbyk> again? :)
<humphreybc> I can't get the last test case to pass (with the negative number)
<godbyk> why not just use return len(str(n))?
 * humphreybc would like to point out he worked out how to get the third test case to pass (wrap the whole thing in an if else statement) by himself
<humphreybc> lol
<humphreybc> because we're meant to be doing a lab on while loops
<humphreybc> how to block comment in python?
<godbyk> okay, so just add another case (after the if block you have already) for if n < 0: count += 1
<humphreybc> so an elif?
<humphreybc> return len(str(n)) doesn't work with the negative numbers as it counts the minus sign as a character
<godbyk> shouldn't it?
<godbyk> oh, it shouldn't.
<godbyk> so what you really want is something like:
<godbyk> count = 0; for d in num: if d in range('0','9'): count += 1; ; return count
<ubuntujenkins> btw i have put in an etherpad suggestion to have python highlighting
<godbyk> (with proper formatting)
<godbyk> etherpad's not really used for code dumping.. it's for collaborative writing (text).
<ubuntujenkins> well the odd, this is how you should do it session it is useful
<godbyk> true
<ubuntujenkins> I learn every day with python, that way it can be changed directly and the person knows exactly what you are on about
<humphreybc> yeah
<ubuntujenkins> I get easily confussed on irc
<ubuntujenkins> someone is like just do this, and it can go over my head
<humphreybc> http://pad.ubuntu-uk.org/2KiVe3lQviQ
<humphreybc> same here
<humphreybc> I have no idea what kevin is talking about lol
<Daviey> godbyk: The first pastebin didn't support code highliting, now many do
<humphreybc> godbyk, care to go into the pad and show me where I need to add another if thing?
<godbyk> sure
<godbyk> Daviey: true.
<humphreybc> =]
<ubuntujenkins> humphreybc: can't make his mind up if he is coming or going
<humphreybc> (Ubuntu doesn't like the Uni WPA2-PSK enterprise with PEAP security)
<humphreybc> godbyk, pad?
<ubuntujenkins> I have no problems
<ubuntujenkins> he is there
<humphreybc> really?
<godbyk> one sec
<ubuntujenkins> I see his name
<humphreybc> my pad reckons there is no one else in the thing except me
<ubuntujenkins> I don't see you
<humphreybc> http://pad.ubuntu-uk.org/2KiVe3lQvi right?
<ubuntujenkins> we are on different pads
<humphreybc> lol
<ubuntujenkins> http://pad.ubuntu-uk.org/2KiVe3lQviQ
<humphreybc> oh
<humphreybc> the stupid copy and paste
<humphreybc> remove the Q from the end
<ubuntujenkins> yep there now
<humphreybc> pidgin keeps adding crap to the end of stuff I paste
<humphreybc> it's retarded
<godbyk> humphreybc: http://pad.ubuntu-uk.org/2KiVe3lQviQ
<humphreybc> godbyk, negative: http://pad.ubuntu-uk.org/2KiVe3lQvi
<humphreybc> (without the Q at the end)
<godbyk> gotcha
<godbyk> pasted.
<humphreybc> huh?
<humphreybc> oh
<ubuntujenkins> on the pad
<humphreybc> right
<humphreybc> on the other pad
<ubuntujenkins> lol
<godbyk> humphreybc: does that work for you?
<humphreybc> yep
<humphreybc> thanks :)
<humphreybc> now i'm just working on the next one
<godbyk> and you understand how it works?
<humphreybc> yeap
<humphreybc> what am I doing wrong in this one?
<humphreybc> (http://pad.ubuntu-uk.org/2KiVe3lQviQ)
<godbyk> with or without the Q?
<humphreybc> with
<humphreybc> ah i see
<humphreybc> i'm trying to divide a string by 2
<godbyk> I'm not seeing anything on either pad.
<godbyk> oh, there it is
<humphreybc> godbyk, pad? :)
<ubuntujenkins> night all
#ubuntu-manual 2010-04-14
<humphreybc> http://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2010/04/omg-ubuntu-podcast-launching-next-week.html
<humphreybc> i wonder who the kiwi could be? :P
<godbyk> probably depends on which kiwi is awake at the time. ;-)
<humphreybc> lol
<humphreybc> i'm installing PS CS3 in an XP virtualbox... wish me luck
<semioticrobotic> oh dear
<semioticrobotic> good luck with that
<humphreybc> yeah
<humphreybc> i needs more rams
<semioticrobotic> when will your interview on Full Circle air, humphreybc?
<humphreybc> about the 22nd i think
<semioticrobotic> cool
<semioticrobotic> looking forward to it
<humphreybc> it's long :P
<semioticrobotic> good!
<humphreybc> bout 40mins
<semioticrobotic> are they editing it?  or just unleashing your diatribe upon the world, uncut
<humphreybc> editing it thank god haha
<semioticrobotic> haha
<semioticrobotic> well, I always enjoy the podcast, so this will be a highlight for sure
<humphreybc> awesome
<humphreybc> do you listen to uupc?
<semioticrobotic> produced by the UK Loco team?
<humphreybc> yea
<semioticrobotic> just started!  listened to another episode this afternoon, as a matter of fact
<semioticrobotic> what a great show
<humphreybc> it is good
<humphreybc> i was meant to be on that too but i slept in, forgot all about it!
<semioticrobotic> and now the folks at OMG! are doing one, it seems
<humphreybc> i think i'll be on that after Lucid
<humphreybc> folks at OMG! = me and Joey
<semioticrobotic> awesome ... that's big-time press
<semioticrobotic> ha!  really?
<humphreybc> (I'm the other half of OMG)
<semioticrobotic> I had no idea
<humphreybc> hehe yeah, i've been a writer for a few weeks
<semioticrobotic> but that's wonderful
<humphreybc> we're trying to work out what we're going to do differently to the others, skyping with joey about it soon (if he comes online!)
<semioticrobotic> I was wondering how that podcast would exist within the Ubuntu podcast space
<humphreybc> it won't be as good in terms of quality as we'll be skyping from opposite sides of the world (whereas the uupc guys all sit in a room with mics)
<semioticrobotic> where's Joey?
<humphreybc> UK
<semioticrobotic> gotcha
<semioticrobotic> yeah, that's a bit tough
<humphreybc> meh, we know there are already lots of podcasts, but hey, there are lots of podcasts about apple, why not ubuntu?
<semioticrobotic> but other podcasts do it ... so it must be possible
<semioticrobotic> exactly
<humphreybc> anyway we want to do it just for a bit of fun ourselves and I think OMG!'s 10,000+ subscribers will like it
<semioticrobotic> I'll be listening
<humphreybc> we'll do a podcast when i'm at UDS too
<humphreybc> which will be neat
<semioticrobotic> Ubuntu podcasts are my favorite distraction
<semioticrobotic> that'll be excellent
<humphreybc> i might run around with a mic and interview some people at UDS like Mark and Jono and stuff
<semioticrobotic> interviews with those folks would certainly put your podcast on the map
<humphreybc> but yeah, OMG! will be covering UDS pretty thoroughly
<semioticrobotic> nice ... i'm anxious to hear the coverage
<semioticrobotic> "the perfect 10.10"
<humphreybc> i'll be there physically and Joey was meant to come too but he has to work for those weeks
<humphreybc> heh
<humphreybc> it'll be good fun
<semioticrobotic> I'd offer to submit some content, but have absolutely no idea what I could contribute
<humphreybc> :) if you think of something or write a good article you'd like us to repost, let me know
<semioticrobotic> cool ... will do
<humphreybc> photoshop appears to be working! yay!
<semioticrobotic> even with limited rams?
<humphreybc> yeah
<humphreybc> i've given the virtual box 1GB
<semioticrobotic> should be enough for CS3, yeah
<humphreybc> magic
<semioticrobotic> heh
<semioticrobotic> alright, time to power down for the night
<semioticrobotic> good to chat with you, humphreybc
<humphreybc> see ya bryan!
<semioticrobotic> now that we're not squashing editing bugs, catching folks in the channel is hard
<semioticrobotic> meeting this weekend?
<humphreybc> yeah i think we'll have to have a meeting
<semioticrobotic> right-o
<semioticrobotic> I think I'm available
<semioticrobotic> take care, benjamin
<humphreybc> see ya!
<humphreybc> godbyk, http://www.flickr.com/photos/humphreybc/4518956963/sizes/o/
<godbyk> 'kay. gimme the spiel. what's this design trying to achieve?
<Red_HamsterX> He needs to stop leaving before I can ask what he wanted to talk to me about...
<godbyk> heh
<godbyk> he'll be back.
<godbyk> he's just rebooting.
<godbyk> he's trying to get his scanner working or something.
<godbyk> Red_HamsterX: humphreybc's here now.
<humphreybc> godbyk, we should probably move the website over to its own branch before release
<godbyk> I agree.
<godbyk> Just waiting to hear back from Adnane.
<humphreybc> ok
<Red_HamsterX> humphreybc, do you still need my attention?
<Red_HamsterX> (You PMed me about twenty hours ago)
<humphreybc> nope :)
<humphreybc> thanks tho!
<Red_HamsterX> 'Kay.
<vish> humphreybc: screenshots would probably need an update again ;p
<humphreybc> ...
 * vish runs
<humphreybc> was it you who updated the icons?
<vish> humphreybc:  yup , me and Dan , the orange was removed from almost every icon
<humphreybc> lol
<humphreybc> oh well
<thorwil> vish: there really should be a layer between applications and there interfaces, allowing to take "shots" of there state to then render them with theming arguments
<thorwil> godbyk: you added the translated titlepage SVGs to the branch? what's titlepage-*.svg?
<godbyk-android2> thorwil: I think those are the translated svgs.
<godbyk-android2> thorwil: did I actually add the svgs to the branch? I only intended to add the script.
<thorwil> godbyk: bzr status doesn't list them as unknown
<godbyk-android> I added them to the ignore file.
 * thorwil checks .bzrignore
<ubuntujenkins> morning all
<thorwil> morning!
<thorwil> wtf, skype knows no Great Britain, no England?
<ubuntujenkins> what?
<thorwil> in add a skype contact, country/region list, i can't find Great Britain, Britain or England
<dutchie> UK?
<dutchie> United Kingdom?
<thorwil> but of course!
<thorwil> shoot me!
<dutchie> officially, it's "The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland"
<dutchie> commonly abbreviated to "UK"
<ubuntujenkins> united kingdom isn't a country
<dutchie> yes it is
<ubuntujenkins> england, scotland, wales etc are countries
<dutchie> but not in the same sense that france/germany are countries
<ubuntujenkins> erm but they are classed as countries
<dutchie> England don't go to the UN, the UK does
<humphreybc> lol
<humphreybc> so in summary, english people want to be different because they have no other way of getting people interested in them
<humphreybc> ;)
 * thorwil has been told to be careful with calling people from the uk english
<dutchie> only if they're not
<humphreybc> heh
<humphreybc> http://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/
<humphreybc> latest two posts
<thorwil> a t-shirt for humphreybc: http://www.bustedtees.com/trololo
<humphreybc> thanks thorwil
<humphreybc> that looks nice
<ubuntujenkins> evening
<daker> hi @all
<ubuntujenkins> hello daker
<daker> how are u ?
<ubuntujenkins> I am good thanks you?
<daker> not fine i am suffering from a from a lot of bugs
<ubuntujenkins> thats not good, hope you get better soon.
<daker>  Lucid :s
<ubuntujenkins> o i see, what sort of bugs?
<daker> bug 554904
<manualbot> Launchpad bug 554904 in xserver-xorg-video-intel "[i945G] Ubuntu 10.4 fails to boot into Xorg" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/554904
<daker> when this bug happens i can't restart X, and the computer sleeps
<ubuntujenkins> nice not a good bug
<dutchie> is there such a thing?
<daker> dutchie, like what ?
<dutchie> a good bug
<ubuntujenkins> well if it is simple then or trivial. or wishlist then its ok
<daker> ubuntujenkins, when this happens i see this Bug 521298
<manualbot> Launchpad bug 521298 in mountall "could not write byte broken pipe" [Undecided,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/521298
<ubuntujenkins> That bug effects me as well, I don't see it as plymouth hides it
<daker> how can i report bugs that already happens and i didn't report them ?
<ubuntujenkins> add a comment to the existing bug?
<daker_> f*** again :s
<daker> http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1446274
<daker> it hangs at "checking battery state" event
<daker> it seems that he is waiting for something that will not happens
<daker> after the screen start to blink the terminal, and it sleeps
<cep> hello everyone
<godbyk> hey, cap.
<ubuntujenkins> hello godbyk and cep
<cep> i faced a string starting with "\notecallout[Note]{The device (/dev/sda1.."
<cep> the [Note] should be translated?
<godbyk> cap: Yes.
<godbyk> (I tried to get rid of all the \notecallout's, but apparently missed a few.)
<godbyk> It will be printed as: Note: The device (/dev/sda1.."  with "Note" in bold.
<cep> ok thx
<godbyk> no problem.
<daker> ubuntujenkins,  how to put rythmbox in the systray ?
<daker> i can't hide it to the systray
<ubuntujenkins> click the close button daker that works for me
<daker> Oh
<daker> yeah
<cep> i have a problem with a screenshot on the quickshot
<ubuntujenkins> fire away cep
<cep> the size of the image isn't enough for the windows
<cep> because of the longer words of my language
<cep> (I suppose)
<ubuntujenkins> which language cep and which screenshots?
<cep> Greek language and the screenshot is ... wait a sec
<cep> i think the name is advanced search (on evolution)
<cep> look at the screenshot http://yfrog.com/jdquickshottemporaryscreep
<cep> i tried to make the windows smaller but it wasn' t possible
<ubuntujenkins> cep thats an interesting one, as the window is bigger than the width of the choosen resolution for quickshot images, not sure what to do there
<cep> hm
<ubuntujenkins> godbyk: how would the scaling be effected if we allowed an image that was to wide?
<cep> i can take a screeshot of the windows, edit it properly with gimp, and send it to you
<cep> if that helps
<godbyk> ubuntujenkins: we just need to set \setmaxscreenshot to point to the widest screenshot and everything will be scaled accordingly.
<godbyk> I could modify the code to scale a larger-than-the-max-width screenshot down to the max width if you want.
<ubuntujenkins> cep can you change your resolution so that the window fits on the screen, take the screenshot with the normal tool and send it to luke@ubuntu-manual.org
<ubuntujenkins> godbyk: that might work it depends how it looks
<cep> ubuntujenkins, ok i will try this
<ubuntujenkins> thanks cep
<cep> no problem :), my pleasure :P
<ubuntujenkins> godbyk: can i pick your expert brain, godbyk: if i have a file which lists lots of directories one on each line. how do i extract them i currently have http://pad.ubuntu-uk.org/w4aWuZE6YZ how ever it doen't work any suggestions ?
<godbyk> try read
<godbyk> one sec and I'll look at your code
<ubuntujenkins> thanks
<cep> ubuntujenkins, i took the screenshot on 1280x1024 resolution but by mistake i upload it
<cep> the screeshot was perfect on that resolution
<ubuntujenkins> cep i will just look at it
<ubuntujenkins> cep thats not a problem, i can use it from the server, please make sure you put your resolution back for the rest
<cep> ok
<ubuntujenkins> thanks cep
<cep> no problem :)
<ubuntujenkins> godbyk: we don't need to change the resize script the image that i have uploaded will be fine
<godbyk> ubuntujenkins: okay.
<cep> i have another question, some screenshots (obviously those that have been uploaded) are marked as "waiting for approval" or sth relevant. What's the process that will be followed ?
<ubuntujenkins> cep I approve/reject them and then add them to bzr.
<cep> nice and all screenshots should be uploaded since 29-30?
<ubuntujenkins> yes I have just looked at them all, i will change the button order and aprove them soon
<ubuntujenkins> cep just approved all the screenshots done any time before an hour ago
<cep> nice to hear that :)
<ubuntujenkins> brb
<ubuntujenkins> night all
#ubuntu-manual 2010-04-15
<ubuntujenkins> hello o/
<thorwil> godbyk: hi! is no ligatures in greek correct?
<godbyk> thorwil: hey. hmm.. not sure. I can run a test pdf with the latex settings if you want a comparison.
<thorwil> godbyk: yes, please
<godbyk> 'kay. ancient or modern greek? :)
<thorwil> godbyk: el greek ;)
<thorwil> correct or not, galician, german, spanish and greek SVGs are in the branch now
<godbyk> thorwil: I've emailed you a pdf.
<godbyk> thorwil: Where do you think ligatures would/should occur?
<godbyk> awesome
<thorwil> godbyk: i simply have no idea how greek should look like
<godbyk> I'm going to update the title page commands to start using them (so I can get the translators to stop harping at me about them). :)
<thorwil> this will be true for all the other non latin stuff, too
<godbyk> gotcha.
<godbyk> I'm guessing there are still a number of languages I haven't finished setting up.
<thorwil> godbyk: you'll do the svg -> pdf in batch?
<godbyk> thorwil: Yeah, I'll just have the Makefile do it automatically as needed.
<godbyk> assuming inkscape can export that stuff to pdf without screwing it all up!
<thorwil> godbyk: just make sure it does convert-text-to-path
<godbyk> looks like inkscape has a -T option to do just that. I'll make sure to use it.
<ubuntujenkins> godbyk: can you please delete 03-autoeth@da@1270508477.png
<ubuntujenkins> 03-wireless-authentication@en@1271087864.png
<ubuntujenkins> 08-display-properties-confirm@es@1270174921.png
<godbyk> ubuntujenkins: done
<ubuntujenkins> thanks
<thorwil> godbyk: so the greek is all fine, ty
<godbyk> cool.
<godbyk> I like the easy ones. :)
<godbyk> My main concerns are the languages that use non-Latin scripts and the languages that use a ton of accent characters (like Vietnamese).
<godbyk> Okay, I'm off to bed.  G'night!
 * ubuntujenkins has approved all the screenshots so far except the rtl ones
<Daker> hi ubuntujenkins :D
<ubuntujenkins> hello Daker, how are you?
<Daker> fine :) and you ?
<ubuntujenkins> I am good, just approved a lot of screenshots
<Daker> check my reply
<Daker> to your email
<ubuntujenkins> thanks Daker, that was quickly sovled.
<Daker> no problem
<ubuntujenkins> 642 screenshots so far
<Daker> yeah
<ubuntujenkins> we need 2500 a long way off
<ubuntujenkins> Daker: on the website next to the quickshot "download" button, does it say dvd and not cd?
<Daker> this is humpherybc who wrote the text :)
<Daker> and it says DVD
<ubuntujenkins> cool thanks
<ubuntujenkins> we can't fit it on a cd as the language packs are too big
<Daker> so it's a DVD ?
<ubuntujenkins> yes
<Daker> kk :D
<humphreybc> hi everyong
<humphreybc> godbyk, you still up?
<Daker> hi
 * humphreybc makes an educated guess that he isn't
<humphreybc> hey daker
<humphreybc> just read your email about the website freeze, good call
<Daker> thanx
<humphreybc> has godbyk talked to you about taking the website stuff out of the main branch yet?
<Daker> yes
<humphreybc> cool, so you guys have worked it out?
<Daker> actualy iam working in lp:ubuntu-manual-website
<ubuntujenkins> humphreybc: god-byk is asleep
<humphreybc> Daker, that's great
<Daker> https://code.launchpad.net/~adnane002/ubuntu-manual-website/website
 * humphreybc wonders why pidgin autocomplete gives daker and Daker as options
<humphreybc> ubuntujenkins: ah, thought so
<ubuntujenkins> I have approved 642 screenshots i haven't done any rtl screenshots
<Daker> brb
<humphreybc> ubuntujenkins: wow, 642 is a decent amount
<humphreybc> that's awesome
<ubuntujenkins> i need to add the common screenshots to the common branch
<ubuntujenkins> also need to do the new login one. now they appear to have stopped changing it
<humphreybc> hahaha
<humphreybc> luke, you're doing a rocking job
<ubuntujenkins> thanks :-)
<humphreybc> benjamin@ubuntu-manual.org
<humphreybc> awh lame
 * Daker will passe a final exam in less that 60min
<humphreybc> pass a final exam?
<humphreybc> you must be confident :P
<humphreybc> on that note, i got 100% in my python lab test today and left in 20 minutes :D
<Daker> o.O
<Daker> bye
<Daker> :D
<ubuntujenkins> we have been canonicaled again, the have changed another icon.
<popey> which one?
<ubuntujenkins> its not that important just the Indicator Applet one
<ubuntujenkins> not to bothered about it
 * humphreybc is liking the definition of "to be canonicaled = breaking a freeze"
<ubuntujenkins> lol urban dictionary entry
<humphreybc> what icon is it exactly Luke?
<ubuntujenkins> the Indicator Applet one in the panel, they have also made the wireless icon narrower
<humphreybc> the indicator applet doesn't have an icon
<humphreybc> it's just an area for lots of other icons
<humphreybc> do you mean the messaging menu?
<ubuntujenkins> yes, the envelope one
<humphreybc> ah
<humphreybc> the messaging menu is the correct term for it i think
<ubuntujenkins> I guess so.
<ubuntujenkins> be back in bit
 * humphreybc is finalizing the credits
<vish> humphreybc: ubuntujenkins: actually nothing can be broken unless approved by the docs team  ;)
<humphreybc> (nice of them to think of us too)
 * vish adds a "would" ^in front ;)
<vish> rather "would be"
<Daker> back
<ubuntujenkins> evening all
<Daker> good night
<ubuntujenkins> night Daker
<Daker> Oh sorry
<Daker> wrong window :D
<ubuntujenkins> :D
<Daker> do you where can i find a python snippet code handling 3G connection ?
<Daker> ubuntujenkins, do you know ?
<ubuntujenkins> Daker: I don't know, may be ask in #ubuntu-app-devel . what are you trying to achive? you always get my interest :D
<Daker> oki
<Daker> thanks
<ubuntujenkins> godbyk: ping
<shrini> team: hope that you remember kanchilug
<shrini> :-)
<shrini> the translation into tamil is going well
<shrini> after the freeze of the text,
<shrini> we found it is easy to move on
<shrini> writing ad typing is going on
<shrini> review team is editing the needed text
<Daker> That's cool
<shrini> thanks all for your support and this wonderful effort
<shrini> Daker: thanks
<ubuntujenkins> shrini: thats good to here, i did 22 of the screenshots for you the other day when testing quickshot.
<shrini> ubuntujenkins: wow
<shrini> thats great
<shrini> ubuntujenkins: where are the screeshots?
<shrini> can we have a view?
<ubuntujenkins> the langauge looks strange to me lots of swirls. I will find the link
<shrini> ubuntujenkins: hahahaha
<ubuntujenkins> the approved ones so far can be retrived by doing       bzr branch lp:~ubuntu-manual/ubuntu-manual-screenshots/ta
<shrini> great
<shrini> getting them
<ubuntujenkins> I think they are all ok
<shrini> ubuntujenkins: wow
<shrini> great shots man
<shrini> really great
<shrini> i can imagine, how you felt to see the letters of tamil
<shrini> hahaha
<shrini> but, shots are awesome
<shrini> but, we lack in translating those entire text
<shrini> but still
<shrini> the effort is awesome
<ubuntujenkins> good, glad you like them there are 25 still to do. I am getting very good at navigating ubuntu by icons and locations of stuff
<ubuntujenkins> Red_HamsterX: ping
<godbyk> I'm back/awake/alive now.
<godbyk> Reading the backlogs..
<godbyk> ubuntujenkins: pong
<ubuntujenkins> hello let me pastebin some stuff
<godbyk> 'kay.
<ubuntujenkins> have a look at http://paste.ubuntu.com/415193/ can you replace nl to ar in the first lot. and delete the last three?
<ubuntujenkins> if the replace is a problem don't worry just remove them i have approved them into bzr
<godbyk> 'kay.
<godbyk> give me a moment
<godbyk> This calls for one of my infamous one-liner scripts. :)
<godbyk> ubuntujenkins: done.
<ubuntujenkins> thanks godbyk
<godbyk> ubuntujenkins: I copied the names of the files to be renamed into a file called ren.txt.
<godbyk> ubuntujenkins: then ran this: for i in $(cat ren.txt); do mv $i $(echo "$i" | sed -e 's/@nl@/@ar@/'); done
 * godbyk likes bash scripts
<ubuntujenkins> you are good at those scripts
<godbyk> ubuntujenkins: only because I've learned they feed into my laziness. ;-)
<c7p> hey guys, what happened to the translations .... ?
<ubuntujenkins> c7p: what do you mean?
<c7p> well when i gof out from lp before 7 hours, my language's translation was 46% completed, now it's 20%
<c7p> and from what i see the same happens to other languages too
<c7p> except for some, eg Galician, English
<c7p> Spanish
<ubuntujenkins> that doesn't sound good, are you looking at the same translations, not muddling the different series up?
<c7p> yap
<c7p> you can check it out yourself https://translations.launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual/lucid-e1/+pots/ubuntu-manual
<c7p> the greek language had 930 strings (maybe + or - 10) untranslated, now they are 1331
<c7p> and the german had around 500 untranslated but it has 1046
<ubuntujenkins> ouch, this isn't good not sure how or what has caused it.
<ubuntujenkins> *i am
<c7p> from what i see the some translated strings are marked as "need review" although they were marked as "translated" before
<c7p> i mean no translations are lost
<c7p> but we have to lose one or two days selecting the "need review" strings
<c7p> can sth be done to avoid it ?
<godbyk> I'm not sure. I just finished reading all my email and didn't see anything about the translations being modified by us.
<godbyk> The pot file hasn't been touched in some time.
<c7p> i know there is nothing at the mailinglist
<godbyk> (Though I will be updating it soon after I finish fixing a couple bugs in the text.)
<c7p> will the "need review" strings be lost ?
<godbyk> I have no idea how any of it works.
<godbyk> The changes we've made will be minimal and we'll try to make sure the translations aren't affected too much.
<godbyk> We're going to be looking at other options for translating the manual in the future. If you have any suggestions or comments, feel free to let us know!
<godbyk> Is seems that Launchpad/Rosetta doesn't work terribly well for our project.
<c7p> the minimal changes will be on strings, right ?
<godbyk> Yes
<godbyk> We have to change a couple strings.
<c7p> could you wait some minutes before you update the database ?
<ubuntujenkins> godbyk: how would i change the last bit of your one liner for i in $(cat /tmp/baseshots/$language/langfilelist); do mv $i $(echo "$i" | sed -e 's/@nl@/@ar@/'); done to remove everything after the @ in a file name but keep the .png at the end?
<c7p> please wait for me before you make any changes, it wont take much time. If these strings will be lost the work of almost a week would be waste of time
<godbyk> c7p: no worries. I haven't made the string changes I need to make yet.  And after that, I have to wait for dutchie to update the actual pot file.
<c7p> ok thx
<godbyk> c7p: Is there a way I can back up all the existing translations (whether waiting for approval or not) before updating the pot file? (so we have a backup in case things go south)
<ubuntujenkins> godbyk: if dutchie isn't around i have the command somewhere to update it all. not sure where though
<godbyk> ubuntujenkins: so you want to remove the final @ and the string of digits following it?
<godbyk> doh!
<godbyk> Ctrl+W = close window in xchat.
<godbyk> When I wanted Ctrl+W to mean 'delete the previous word'
<ubuntujenkins> the first @ and everything following it. I am hoping Red_HamsterX will impliment something in the server for me
<ubuntujenkins> leaving the .png at the end
<c7p> we can download the .po files of all languages before the update and then if a string change then it would be a mmatter of finding it on the .po file and make the proper changes on lp new string
<godbyk> oh, okay. so kill the language code and the timestamp (or whatever that is)?
<godbyk> yeah, that's easy enough.
<godbyk> just run: for i in *.png; do mv $i $(echo "$i" | sed -e 's/@.*\./\./'); done
<ubuntujenkins> thanks, also when you edit the strings can you please fix my STUPID mistake in Bug 560689 . I feel so bad about that one :/
<manualbot> Launchpad bug 560689 in ubuntu-manual "Text about burning an image has some errors" [Low,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/560689
<godbyk> c7p: will the po file contain the unapproved strings, too?
<c7p> i don't think so
<c7p> we can consult the guys on #launchpad , right?
<godbyk> ubuntujenkins: I'll take a look at it.
<ubuntujenkins> thanks such a silly mistake.
<godbyk> c7p: Have you seen any problems in the past couple weeks with translations disappearing?
<godbyk> I think the problem before was that Launchpad discards fuzzy translations.
<godbyk> But since the string freeze, that should be much less of a problem (since we're not rewriting everything all the time).
<c7p> the problem is that is a word on a string changes even a space the string translation is removed
<c7p> if*
<ubuntujenkins> godbyk: you rule :-) my script now moves them to the right directory and renames them.
<godbyk> c7p: yeah, that's what I thought. I asked the launchpad guys about it and they said that they used to have fuzzy translations turned on, but it was worse because it lead to a ton of bad translations.
<godbyk> I'm going to explore how we can improve the translation process for our manual as soon as we've got this first one finished.
<c7p> sure, we can't avoid this process for this manual but the next manual to come should have a better translation management system
<godbyk> c7p: Definitely. I want to have a conversation with our translators to see what worked well, what problems we encountered, and gather suggestions for solutions.
<godbyk> c7p: We may end up having to ditch Launchpad for translations, even.  I don't really know yet.
<ubuntujenkins> godbyk: I was going to send an e-mail out ref translators thoughts sometime. i haven't compiled launchpad to run on my pc untill i have my uni internet back
<ubuntujenkins> like you said we need to find out what they think
<godbyk> ubuntujenkins: yeah. I think we can improve the process. I just don't know if it's something we can do when generating the pot file or if it's something we have to do with the launchpad/rosetta interface itself.
<godbyk> ubuntujenkins: if the launchpad API allows us to modify the translations, we may be able to get away with having our own translation frontend that ties into launchpad.
<ubuntujenkins> I think its the launchpad interface, the launchpad api isn't that good as far as i know. i wasn't looking at the translations stuff though
<ubuntujenkins> nope i was looking at the launchpadlib
<ubuntujenkins> Red_HamsterX: I am off to bed, but is it possible/are you able to/do you have the time to implement this in the current server. I would like to specify a date and time after which to create a zip of files. I have approved all of the screenshots so far and it would be easiyer if i didn't have to work out which ones I don't have to add again and to what langauges. I have a script that renames all of the file
<ubuntujenkins> s and sorts them into langauge directories. There is a lot of manual checking involved as not all of the window buttons are the same depending on if compiz or metaciy is used. Also I am adding google as the dfault search instead of yahoo. Thanks
<ubuntujenkins> night all
<c7p> night
<c7p> everything ok now ...
<c7p> thank you, goodnight all
#ubuntu-manual 2010-04-16
* humphreybc changed the topic of #ubuntu-manual to: Ubuntu Manual Project discussion | STRING FREEZE in effect | Meetings this weekend! http://tinyurl.com/y9nqh8t | Website: http://ubuntu-manual.org | Launchpad: https://launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual | IRC logs: http://irclogs.ubuntu.com | Ubuntu Guidelines: http://wiki.ubuntu.com/IrcGuidelines | Code of Conduct: http://www.ubuntu.com/community/conduct/
<humphreybc> MEETINGS THIS WEEKEND! http://tinyurl.com/y9nqh8t
<godbyk> humphreybc: yay
<humphreybc> lol
<humphreybc> godbyk, anything you want to add to the agenda?
<godbyk> hmm.. lemme think about it for a while.  (in the midst of banging out some other latex code at the moment.)
<humphreybc> kk
<humphreybc> have we lost some momentum?
<humphreybc> slash all momentum?
<godbyk> some, probably.
<humphreybc> hm
<humphreybc> i am going to hope we get some of that back after this release
<godbyk> though everyone's free to start jamming on the second edition, they're probably waiting for us to define some parameters there. what's the second edition for? what goes in it? how does it differ from the first edition? etc.
<humphreybc> btw, i mentioned in the interview with FCM magazine that we're aiming for 10,000 downloads on the first day and Robin said "I wouldn't be surprised if you get more than that... I hope your web admin is prepared!"
<humphreybc> yeah well we should talk about that at the meeting
<godbyk> cool.
<humphreybc> if we get 10,000 downloads on the 29th alone i'll be chuffed
<godbyk> I'm hoping daker gets the site ready soon so we can get that in place.
<humphreybc> yeah
<humphreybc> how are we going to "launch" the site?
<godbyk> quietly. :)
<humphreybc> my original plan was to have a real simple countdown right up till the 28th
<humphreybc> and then BANG an awesome site goes up, to much hype
<godbyk> heh.
<humphreybc> but then when the site was being developed, it was looking so good and was proving to be quite useful so we just chucked it up there anyway
<godbyk> I think we should have everything in place with the new site and have the countdown page as the home page.
<godbyk> then when the countdown hits 0 (or nearly so), we'll flip the home page over to the real homepage, show the download links, etc.
<humphreybc> oh yeah
<humphreybc> yeah that's a good idea
<humphreybc> let's do that :)
<godbyk> we should really make sure that all the stuff from the wiki that we care about is on the new site.
<humphreybc> indeed
<godbyk> then start just redirecting from the wiki to the new site.
<humphreybc> i'm pretty sure most of it it
<humphreybc> is*
<godbyk> (right now I'm having to update the quickshot iso image link on the wiki as well as the new site, for instance.)
<humphreybc> indeed
<humphreybc> we'll get rid of the wiki soon
<humphreybc> well
<humphreybc> not get rid of it but just have a big phat link on the main wiki page saying GO HERE
<godbyk> right
<humphreybc> and slowly everyone will point to our site
<humphreybc> but this relies on you not dying
<godbyk> heh
<humphreybc> cos if you do, we're screwed
<godbyk> I'll do my best. :)
<humphreybc> we should probably look into sorting out some way of getting a team server
<godbyk> well, the hosting bill is paid up for a few months.. that and the cron script should keep you in business for a little while. :-P
<humphreybc> probably the best bet is for us to ask Canonical for some server space after release
<humphreybc> :P
<godbyk> how do most projects handle hosting?
<humphreybc> no idea
<humphreybc> they use wikis and launchpad
<humphreybc> most projects don't have flashy websites
<humphreybc> (those that do probably just have it set up like us, someone in the project provides some space
<humphreybc> )
<humphreybc> like Gnome DO is hosted on "Daves" website
<humphreybc> http://do.davebsd.com/
<humphreybc> we could start asking for donations
<humphreybc> (or slap like $1 profit on top of each book sold through lulu.com just to pay for hosting)
<humphreybc> I'd rather not do that thoug
<humphreybc> though*
<godbyk> yeah, I'd prefer to avoid it, too.
<humphreybc> We want the lulu.com books to be as cheap as possible so it's accessible
<humphreybc> we'll judge the situation after the main release when the manual is in widescale use
<godbyk> sure
<humphreybc> if everyone seems to like it then we can perhaps set up a donations thing
<humphreybc> (and them spam Mark for donations)
<humphreybc> godbyk: did you get my email with the final list of credits?
<godbyk> humphreybc: yeah, I haven't looked at them yet, though.
<humphreybc> kk
<humphreybc> have you got a photo of yourself btw?
<humphreybc> or do you not want one?
<godbyk> nah, I don't think I have any good photos handy. sorry.
<humphreybc> ok
<humphreybc> you're missing out!
<humphreybc> Red_HamsterX, vish, photos?
<humphreybc> Still need Red_HamsterX and titeuf
<vish> humphreybc: fotos? ..
<humphreybc> ya
<humphreybc> i need a picture of you
<humphreybc> right i've pretty much finished the "surprise"
<godbyk> cool
<humphreybc> it's just uploading to youtube, i'm off to work
<humphreybc> i'll be back in 6 hours
<humphreybc> (it's set to private at the moment
<humphreybc> we can probably embed it into the website ourselves, or if that doesn't work we can always just embed the youtube one... but youtube might remove the video due to the music violating copyrights
<humphreybc> we'll see
<dutchie> o/
<dutchie> bloody hell
<dutchie> my laptop is on its last legs :(
<ubuntujenkins> hello o/
<dutchie> hi ubuntujenkins
 * ubuntujenkins is back at university \o/
<ubuntujenkins> hello dutchie are you awake :P
<dutchie> just about
<dutchie> bit of a headache
<ubuntujenkins> : /
<humphreybc> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vuKoMFw8nUI
<humphreybc> thorwil, you may not be able to view the video - apparently it's blocked in Germany due to a copyright with the music
<dutchie> humphreybc: could you not have found any CC music?
<thorwil> brutal painfull death and an eternity in hell with eyeball eating worms for those responsible at Sony Music Entertainment, scum of the earth ;)
<humphreybc> heh
<humphreybc> dutchie, no it *had* to be the Dave Matthews Band
<humphreybc> but that doesn't matter too much because we'll host it on our own server on our site
<dutchie> I think we should make some attempt at getting copyright clearance
<humphreybc> I can try i suppose
<humphreybc> I'll email Dave :)
<humphreybc> anyway what do you think of the video? it's a shame some of the pictures have weird purple lines on the right
<ubuntujenkins> humphreybc: I was wondering why you hadn't mugged me yet
<humphreybc> hmm?
<ubuntujenkins> i am in the video, but was wondering what had happend to the mug shots :P
<ubuntujenkins> I don't know who most of the people are.
<humphreybc> oh right
<humphreybc> haha
<humphreybc> what do you think of the video?
<humphreybc> it's not particularly fancy, I *am* using Linux after all
<popey> meow
<humphreybc> popey: woof!
<popey> :)
<humphreybc> what's up?
<ubuntujenkins> its good, i only recognise three people.
<ubuntujenkins> onik
<humphreybc> ubuntujenkins: hehe well, that's probably cos you don't see their faces that much in IRC :P
<ubuntujenkins> make that four people
<thorwil> irc would be less popular with faces, perhaps
<humphreybc> lol
 * popey shudders
<popey> maybe it's time we had an irc client that had the same graphical look of gwibber
<popey> with avatars
<popey> MS Comic Chat!
<popey> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_Comic_Chat
<thorwil> wow. don't imagine that combined with hentai
<popey> sometimes we get the odd person join irc with that client
<popey> its mental
<popey> not long till uds now humphreybc :)
<popey> my train is booked :)
<humphreybc> popey: I know! I saw on Twitter :)
<humphreybc> have you been to NZ before Alan?
<popey> no
<humphreybc> (MS Comic Chat is awesome)
<popey> never been further south than Maldives
<humphreybc> okay, good
<humphreybc> I have a present for ye
<popey> uh-oh
<thorwil> train - the save option in eruptive times
<humphreybc> thorwil: you're heading to UDS too, right?
<thorwil> humphreybc: no
<humphreybc> awh why not?
<humphreybc> work? play? don't want to see me?
<thorwil> humphreybc: there was a single session in dallas where i actually had something to contribute. i was often bored to near death, out of body experiences
<humphreybc> ah okay
<humphreybc> well i spose that's fair enough then :)
<thorwil> humphreybc: it could be different with a real design track, but there was no looking at the program before sponsorship deadline ...
<humphreybc> indeed, there is a real design track for UDS-M
<humphreybc> popey: I'm bringing MPT some Marmite haha
<popey> humphreybc: You know we have marmite in the UK?
<humphreybc> he requested it
<popey> heh
<popey> nutter
<humphreybc> so i dunno? maybe it's different...
<popey> not vegimite?
<popey> we have that too, but not as common
<humphreybc> i'll confirm but i'm pretty sure he said marmite
<humphreybc> i'll ask him now
<dutchie> http://twitter.com/jshholland/status/12266062529 # cough
<popey> seen Marmite XO?
<humphreybc> yeah i saw that josh, chose not to reply :P
<popey> http://www.marmiteshop.co.uk/
<humphreybc> popey: is that the one where they f**k with the original ingredients?
<humphreybc> I was surprised mpt didn't ask for Vogels or Hellers sausages
<humphreybc> (There are all these TV ads in NZ that have kiwis living in the UK trying to smuggle bread through customs and stuff)
<humphreybc> popey: that website concerns me. What is an everyday product in NZ seems to be rather famous overseas! ("We ship it worldwide!")
<humphreybc> fridge magnets? art? kitchenware? LOL
<popey> yeah, marmite is every day over here too
<dutchie> humphreybc: I think in this case overseas == US
<popey> but it's kinda famous
<popey> yeah, i know yanks find it hard to get
<popey> get as in obtain
<humphreybc> lol
<humphreybc> (21:31:49) humphreybc: hey, do you want anything from NZ?
<humphreybc> (21:32:15) mpt: ooh, thanks for asking
<humphreybc> (21:32:19) mpt: A jar of Marmite
<humphreybc> (21:32:29) humphreybc: heh, okay, will be done
<humphreybc> (21:32:34) mpt: thank you
<humphreybc> so i dunno! haha
<humphreybc> perhaps us Kiwis put some special sauce in it or something
<popey> what a nutter
<humphreybc> REAL All Blacks sweat
<popey> the tears of hobbits
<humphreybc> while we're on this subject, any requests for stuff from the other side of the world?
<humphreybc> Lord of the Rings figurines?
<humphreybc> Penguins?
<humphreybc> Peter Jackson himself?
<dutchie> my aussie friend is rumoured to have inserted a stick of dynamite into a penguin
<humphreybc> (Such a small country, I have him on speed dial)
<dutchie> same guy who is to blame for this nick, as it happens
<humphreybc> O.o
<humphreybc> ubuntujenkins, you want something to do?
<ubuntujenkins> humphreybc: may be, what do you want doing?
<humphreybc> I need images, lots of images that are at least 800x800 px... they need to have *anything* to do with the manual project
<humphreybc> like, anything
<humphreybc> so it can be photos of people, screenshots of blog posts about us, screenshots of the manual itself, mockups, icons, diagrams, random books, ubuntu logos and artwork, wallpapers etc etc
<humphreybc> anything that has anything remotely to do with us
<humphreybc> start hunting for stuff on google images (i'm not too worried about licensing) and paste some links :)
<ubuntujenkins> kk i have 5 mins before squash
<humphreybc> go hard!
<dutchie> cool, squash
<humphreybc> remember, at least 800 px is good
<ubuntujenkins> found this one https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-manual?action=AttachFile&do=get&target=tools.png
<ubuntujenkins> http://images.google.co.uk/imgres?imgurl=http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_FJH0hYZmVtc/S3k8qj7yIWI/AAAAAAAAFyw/BZsvgoyI2WY/s400/Selection_002.png&imgrefurl=http://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2010/02/ubuntu-manual-alpha-released-gets-new.html&usg=__5bw8fhdkFqYxlcW7VENFr73uZjw=&h=400&w=309&sz=56&hl=en&start=8&um=1&itbs=1&tbnid=ssNAyo7MxcC4BM:&tbnh=124&tbnw=96&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dubuntu%2Bmanual%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DN%26tbs%3Dis
<ubuntujenkins> ch:1
<dutchie> nice url
<ubuntujenkins> http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_FJH0hYZmVtc/S3k8qj7yIWI/AAAAAAAAFyw/BZsvgoyI2WY/s1600-h/Selection_002.png
<ubuntujenkins> http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_1PykOXo2c5I/S7LYVSxC6OI/AAAAAAAAALc/3O3eJtU81zs/s1600/quickshot-reflection.png
<ubuntujenkins> https://code.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual-screenshots
<ubuntujenkins> http://news.softpedia.com/images/extra/LINUX/large/ubuntumanualsurvey-large_001.jpg
<ubuntujenkins> http://lh6.ggpht.com/_FJH0hYZmVtc/S1xeLbCIpKI/AAAAAAAAFfM/K431dJ_u-V8/covers_thumb[6].jpg
<ubuntujenkins> http://lh6.ggpht.com/_FJH0hYZmVtc/S1xjlI-ph-I/AAAAAAAAFfY/orxyoOGoRgY/s1600-h/image[6].png
<ubuntujenkins> http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2767/4458437325_666d3e632a.jpg
<ubuntujenkins> http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4036/4459217428_311c01d0a3.jpg
<ubuntujenkins> http://humphreybc.files.wordpress.com/2010/01/branding-large.png
<ubuntujenkins> http://humphreybc.files.wordpress.com/2010/02/icon192.png?w=192&h=192
<ubuntujenkins> paste spam, paste spampaste spampaste spampaste spampaste spampaste spampaste spampaste spampaste spampaste spampaste spampaste spampaste spampaste spampaste spampaste spampaste spampaste spampaste spampaste spampaste spampaste spampaste spampaste spampaste spampaste spam
<ubuntujenkins> most of these are from humphreybc's blog or our wesite
<humphreybc> lol ok
<ubuntujenkins> ooo ubuntu-manual.org is 4th in a google for ubuntu manual
<ubuntujenkins> be back in a while
<humphreybc> we need to be numero 1!
 * dutchie will get the creative blogging juices going
 * popey gets a mop
 * humphreybc is making the best ad
<humphreybc> popey:
<humphreybc> (00:28:22) humphreybc: you wanted Marmite from NZ, right?
<humphreybc> (01:51:56) mpt: yes
<humphreybc> (01:52:31) humphreybc: okay, something special about NZ marmite? popey reckons they sell it in the UK (I'm just curious)
<humphreybc> (01:52:44) mpt: UK Marmite is garbage
<humphreybc> (01:52:48) mpt: It's a liquid, not a solid
<humphreybc> (01:52:55) mpt: and it's brown rather than black
<humphreybc> (01:52:56) humphreybc: a liquid? what the!
<humphreybc> (01:53:00) mpt: I know, right?
<humphreybc> (01:53:05) humphreybc: crazy!
<humphreybc> OPEN SHOT IS GAY
<dutchie> humphreybc: not much reckoning needs to be done, you can definitely get it here
<popey> haha
<humphreybc> dang it open shot just ruined my entire concept for an advertisement for UMP because it can't render images at less than 1 second each, even though it lets you insert them with a duration of less than a second... grr!!
<popey> humphreybc: its not liquid
<popey> its runnyier but not runny
<humphreybc> lol
<humphreybc> you'll have to bring some to UDS so I can judge
<humphreybc> I have marmite on my toast every day
<dutchie> it's probably about syrup consistency
<dutchie> maybe a bit less viscous
<popey> humphreybc: Do you keep yours in the fridge?
<humphreybc> nope, no one does
<popey> ok
<popey> wondered if you guys did and that might be why it was more solid
<humphreybc> yeah
<popey> nz one has the consistency of nutella?
<humphreybc> roughly
<popey> thats the same as vegemite i think
<humphreybc> you'll get to see it first hand at UDS... i'm sure mpt will have it on his toast for breakfast
<popey> :D
<popey> would you like me to bring a pot from the uk so you can witness the rankness?
<humphreybc> yes, do!
<dutchie> /topic Marmite dicussion
<humphreybc> I can just picture us all sitting at a table looking in each others' marmite jars and comparing notes
<popey> haha
 * humphreybc managed to work around open shot's annoyingness, final product isn't as good as I would have liked but I'll upload anyway
<popey> marmite unites the world!
<humphreybc> haha
<humphreybc> I thought Ubuntu unites the world? :P
<popey> i used blender to make a video with short cuts
<popey> worked well
<dutchie> I hate to say it, but I'm indifferent to marmite
<humphreybc> dutchie: Get. Out.
<humphreybc> :P
<humphreybc> I don't understand how people cna put so much on
<humphreybc> I spread mine thinly across marg/butter
<humphreybc> it's quite a strong substance
<humphreybc> and i prefer to be able to taste the bread :P
<dutchie> do you folks have worcester sauce down there?
<humphreybc> yup!
<humphreybc> and HP sauce
 * dutchie lives about 300m from the factory
 * humphreybc lives about 2km from a speights brewery and a cadbury factory?
<humphreybc> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U6PWEGb9o6c
<humphreybc> LOL best site ever
<humphreybc> http://yvettesbridalformal.com/index.htm
<humphreybc> what do we think of my advertisement for UMP?
<dutchie> the original cadbury's is <40 mins from me
<humphreybc> UMP = UnliMited Possibilities!
<humphreybc> dutchie: do you like the ad?
<dutchie> that music did not help my headache
<humphreybc> lol
<humphreybc> apart from that?
<dutchie> pretty cool
<humphreybc> :D
<dutchie> I think a few of the photos missed the beat
<humphreybc> yeah, that's open shot's fault
<dutchie> a bad workman
<humphreybc> I had it timed perfectly in open shot itself
<humphreybc> but when it renders it, it's all out of sync
<humphreybc> sigh
<ubuntujenkins> humphreybc: I have just updated the manual screenshots in lucid-e1
<humphreybc> neat
<humphreybc> i'm off to bed
<humphreybc> night!
<ubuntujenkins> night
<ubuntujenkins> 0/
<ubuntujenkins> o/
<ubuntujenkins> hello titeuf_87 how are you?
<titeuf_87> Hey ubuntujenkins!
<titeuf_87> I've been really busy lately.
<ubuntujenkins> no problem, are you able to make the meeting?
<titeuf_87> Yeah, I should be around for it.
<titeuf_87> Have a little bit of spare time again now.
<dutchie> ooh
<dutchie> I may be late
<ubuntujenkins> cool, I am not sure on the format/how to do the meeting
<ubuntujenkins> dutchie: for the quickshot one or manual one
<dutchie> the manual one i think
<dutchie> oh no, it's fine
<titeuf_87> Oh wait, just checked.
<dutchie> thought it was tonight
<titeuf_87> The quickshot meeting is on Sunday and the manual one Saturday right?
 * dutchie is going for a cultural outing to the theatre tonight
<ubuntujenkins> yes titeuf_87
<titeuf_87> Bleh, I can't stay up late on Sunday, have to get up early Monday.
<titeuf_87> Have to run now, back in a little bit.
<ubuntujenkins> ok see you in bit
<titeuf_87> And back now.
<ubuntujenkins> hello agian titeuf_87 If you can make some of the quickshot meeting that would be good its 8.00pm utc :-)
<titeuf_87> I'll try to stay for the first half hour, hopefully I won't be too tired then.
<ubuntujenkins> thanks you we will cover the client first anyway
<titeuf_87> Ok :)
<titeuf_87> Were there still any big bugs with Quickshot? Or was it usable for most screenshots?
<ubuntujenkins> there is still the one where some screenshots were uploaded labled wrong
<ubuntujenkins> https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/quickshot/+bug/556532
<manualbot> Launchpad bug 556532 in quickshot "screenshots don't have the correct language code" [Undecided,New]
<titeuf_87> Hey ubuntujenkins, do you have the link to the python bug that you commented in that bug?
<ubuntujenkins> titeuf_87: http://bugs.python.org/issue8374
<titeuf_87> Ah that was interesting. Thanks!
<titeuf_87> That's the only language that gives issues right?
<ubuntujenkins> titeuf_87: as far ai i know
<ubuntujenkins> *as
<titeuf_87> Ah ok. And is the language present in the manual? I know Dutch is, but then nl_NL should be used instead of nl_AW.
<ubuntujenkins> nl_AW isn't in the manual i fixed the not detecting the langauge code issue using os.system as a fall back
<ubuntujenkins> godbyk: ping
 * ubuntujenkins has now approved every screenshot so far \o/
<ubuntujenkins> now to tidy my room :/
<komsas> Hey, can someone update all web translations, we want to see how they looks on the pages.
<ubuntujenkins> komsas: I will ask daker to do so when he is on next
<komsas> ubuntujenkins: thank you
<ubuntujenkins> no problem
<godbyk> ubuntujenkins: pong
<ubuntujenkins> hello, one moment whiclt i find it
<godbyk> k
<ubuntujenkins> can you please remove 03-autoeth@he@1270586575.png and 03-autoeth@he@1270376143.png please
<godbyk> ubuntujenkins: done
<ubuntujenkins> thanks, all the aproved screenshots are in their branches
<godbyk> cool
<ubuntujenkins> godbyk: if you see daker before i do can you ask him to update the test.ubuntu-manual.org webiste with the translations.
<godbyk> sure.
<ubuntujenkins> :-)
<godbyk> I might be able to do that. I need to update the manual translations anyway.
<godbyk> (I never bother with the site translations because they're in a different format.)
<ubuntujenkins> cool, the translators will be pleased they want to see their work in the website
<godbyk> I don't blame them. It's always nice to see how your work is being used in practice.
<ubuntujenkins> I completly understand too
<ubuntujenkins> godbyk: good news, now that i am at uni the cd uploads take about 25 mins
<godbyk> ubuntujenkins: awesome! :)
<ubuntujenkins> \o/ four hours is painful
<godbyk> ubuntujenkins: strangely, there are more translations in the current website than what launchpad sent me.
<godbyk> oh, maybe not.
<godbyk> some of them are empty dirs.
<godbyk> removed the empty dirs.
<godbyk> that's better.
<godbyk> now there are more translations in the update.
<ubuntujenkins> :-)
<godbyk> crap.. have to rename the files to remove the prefix that launchpad adds.
<godbyk> grr..
<ubuntujenkins> one line script !
<godbyk> yep!
<godbyk> though this one will be a bit scarier.
<godbyk> ubuntujenkins: didn't turn out too bad:
<godbyk> for L in *; do
<godbyk>     if [ -d "$L" ]; then
<godbyk>         mv "$L/LC_MESSAGES/ubu_man_website_translations.mo" "$L/LC_MESSAGES/$L.mo"
<godbyk>     fi
<godbyk> done
<ubuntujenkins> :-) you are good at those scripts
<godbyk> chalk it up to laziness and practice. :)
<godbyk> ubuntujenkins: I think the website translations should be online now, if you want to test 'em out.
 * ubuntujenkins looks
<ubuntujenkins> works here
<ubuntujenkins> komsas: the translations for the website should work now, thanks to godbyk
<komsas> godbyk: thank you :)
<godbyk> komsas: no problem.
<godbyk> I've also just finished updating http://builds.ubuntu-manual.org/.
 * ubuntujenkins starts fixing errors
<ubuntujenkins> which branch are they in
<ubuntujenkins> ?
<godbyk> that's the lucid-1e branch
<godbyk> which translation are you looking at, ubuntujenkins?
<ubuntujenkins> don't know yet i usualy start at the lowest and TRY and spot the errors
<godbyk> I'll try to take a look at the errors today, too.
<godbyk> Sometimes they're just bugs in the translations and sometimes it's because I haven't done my part yet.
<godbyk> (For instance, the Afrikaans translation doesn't have the required LaTeX code yet. I haven't been in touch with those translators yet.)
<godbyk> But first, food.  /me hungry!
<godbyk> brb
<ubuntujenkins> hello Daker
<Daker> hello @all
<godbyk> Hey, Daker.
<godbyk> Daker: I just updated the website translations.
<godbyk> Daker: How's the website stuff coming along? What do we still need to do before we can switch over to the new site?
<Daker> godbyk, we need to freeze the text
<godbyk> Okay. I'll read through the website text today.
<godbyk> Have you written the download tracking scripts yet?
<Daker> it will be done this week end
<Daker> i have juste de add a few this thing to the script (Language code...)
<Daker> to*
<godbyk> awesome
<ubuntujenkins> godbyk: I am building translated manuals and getting errors like (see the transcript file for additional information)
<ubuntujenkins> Output written on ubuntu-manual-pt.pdf (148 pages).
<ubuntujenkins> Transcript written on ubuntu-manual-pt.log.
<ubuntujenkins> make: *** [ubuntu-manual-pt.pdf] Error 1
<ubuntujenkins> rm ubuntu-manual-pt.tex
<ubuntujenkins>  what am i suppose to look for in the log?
<godbyk> ubuntujenkins: The errors will be marked with "Error:" or with an exclamation point (!) at the beginning of the line.
<ubuntujenkins> makes sense, thanks
<ubuntujenkins> man i am off to bed, the portuguese (pt) builds to the end its fixed in launchpad translations.
<ubuntujenkins> night all
<godbyk> k
<Daker> godbyk, you ? http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/photos-ak-snc1/v321/114/40/16906258/n16906258_37889167_939.jpg
<dutchie> evening folks
<godbyk> Daker: Yep, that's me!
<godbyk> Hey, dutchie.
<godbyk> I have a few bugs to fix in the manual and then I'll need to update the pot file.
<godbyk> dutchie: Are you going to be around for a while? Or is it something I can do on my own easily (i.e., without breaking everything)?
<dutchie> it's one really big command
<dutchie> I have an enormously over-glorified job :)
<godbyk> lol
#ubuntu-manual 2010-04-17
<godbyk> dutchie: you still around?
<dutchie> yep
<dutchie> can I give you the command? I don't have a copy of the branch handy
<godbyk> Sure.
<godbyk> I'm just going through the bugs in launchpad to make sure I haven't missed any big ones.
<godbyk> but then I'll generate the pot file.
<godbyk> what do I have to do to 1. generate the pot file; 2. ensure the pot file doesn't vary too much from the previous that it wipes out massive amounts of translated test; 3. get it into launchpad/rosetta; and 4. duck anything translators may throw at me?
<dutchie> po4a --no-translations -MUTF-8 -v --copyright-holder="The Ubuntu Manual Team" --package-name=ubuntu-manual --package-version=`bzr revno` po4a.conf
<dutchie> that'll regenerate everything that needs regenerating
<godbyk> okay
<godbyk> it knows where to put the pot file and whatnot?
<dutchie> yes
<godbyk> then I just commit the updated pot file to the branch?
<dutchie> use bzr diff (wise to pipe into less) to check that nothing obvious has gone first
<godbyk> sure
<godbyk> dutchie: running po4a now.  we'll see how this goes!
<dutchie> may take a while
<godbyk> dutchie: that just changed the .po files.  didn't touch the .pot file.
<dutchie> hmm
<dutchie> did you change translator visible content?
<godbyk> dutchie: http://paste.ubuntu.com/415852/
<godbyk> dutchie: yeah, I changed the text of a handful of paragraphs.
<dutchie> hmm
<dutchie> seeing as it is 00:34, I'm tempted to say just change it by hand
<dutchie> then run po4a again so all the po files are updated
 * godbyk has no idea what any of that means.
<godbyk> :)
<godbyk> I don't really understand the process.
<dutchie> fire up your favourite editor and change the strings directly in po/ubuntu-manual.pot
<godbyk> I thought that we generate a new .pot file. the pot file gets committed to the branch.  launchpad reads the new pot file. launchpad updates the translations stuff. then we can pull new po files from launchpad as translators fix the strings and translate new strings.
<dutchie> that is the process
<dutchie> but po4a is throwing a hissy fit
<dutchie> so I'm suggesting we generate the pot file by hand
<godbyk> hmm..
<godbyk> okay.
<godbyk> when was the pot last generated?
<godbyk> (so I can see how far back to diff the branch.)
 * godbyk thinks this is starting to get hairy.
<dutchie> dunno
<dutchie> read the log
<godbyk> The Project-Id-Version line in the pot file says 772.. I'm guessing that's the rev.
<dutchie> aha, knew there was a point in that line :)
<godbyk> :-)
<dutchie> how confident are you of not making a mess of this?
<godbyk> dutchie: lol.. I'll let you know.  I'm editing the pot file now.
<dutchie> it's just I'd quite like to go to bed
<godbyk> lol
<godbyk> well, I can leave it for you to handle in the morning, if that's better.
<godbyk> there are a bunch of changes in the diff that don't apply to the pot file. (like .po files and title page svgs and whatnot)
<dutchie> yeah
<godbyk> right now I'm just looking at the diff in vim.
<godbyk> If you have time in the morning, I'll just leave it for you to handle.
<dutchie> will do
<godbyk> I should still be around then.
<godbyk> awesome.
 * dutchie wonders how long it'll take for rhythmbox to compile
<godbyk> my computer keeps running out of memory.. I need to close some browser tabs, I think.
<dutchie> and whether my netbook or the launchpad ppa buildds will finish first
<godbyk> (and then build a new computer. :-()
<dutchie> right, bed
<dutchie> night
<godbyk> g'night
<Daker> godbyk, ping
<Daker> check that http://code.google.com/p/gummi/
<godbyk> Daker: pong
<godbyk> Daker: cool
<Daker> very usefull for begineers
<godbyk> I know that humphreybc was wanting to look into writing an editor that we can use for our project.
<godbyk> Something that would make it easier for people to write latex code without having to deal with the code itself.
<Daker> yes
<Daker> you can give it a test ?
<Daker> http://gummi.midnightcoding.org/
<humphreybc> http://gummi.midnightcoding.org/
<Daker> hi humphreybc
<humphreybc> hey Daker
<humphreybc> Gummi looks fantastic
<humphreybc> i'm just installing it now, great find!
<Daker> thanks
<humphreybc> Daker, i'd like to put this video on the website: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U6PWEGb9o6c
<humphreybc> I'm thinking either the bottom of the "About" page
<humphreybc> OR the top of the "Get Involved" page
<humphreybc> what do you think?
<Daker> euh
<Daker> About page
<humphreybc> okay
<humphreybc> bottom of the about page, in the middle
<humphreybc> It would be better if you could embed it and host it on our server, instead of just embedding the youtube video
<humphreybc> then we don't get the ads and the copyright restrictions
<Daker> i'll do
<humphreybc> :)
<humphreybc> I'll put the source video on my server
<humphreybc> there will be another video for the Contributors page
<godbyk> okay, the translations should be using the new thorwil-customized title pages (if they exist).  if they don't exist, it'll fall back on the English title page for now.
<humphreybc> http://humphreybc.homeip.net/files/ump-advert.mp4 should do the trick
<humphreybc> godbyk, nice
<humphreybc> godbyk, did you see the ad?
<godbyk> humphreybc: yeah.
<humphreybc> thoughts?
<Daker> flash can't mp4 i think
<Daker> read*
<godbyk> Daker: give me a moment, and I'll convert it to flash. my hosting provider has their own flash video thingy.
<humphreybc> ok
<humphreybc> you'll need to make it smaller
<humphreybc> it's currently 720p so it'll need to be resized to fit into the content pane
<humphreybc> if that's too much trouble I can have a look at rendering it smaller
<godbyk> it'll resize it
<godbyk> Daker: what size should we use?  there are some preset sizes I can choose from or we can specify our own custom size.
<godbyk> here are the options:
<godbyk> same as original
<godbyk> 4:3: 160x120, 320x240, 480x360, 640x480
<humphreybc> we'll want it 16:9
<godbyk> widescreen: 360x240, 540x360, 720x480 (480p)
<godbyk> then there are potrait (tall) sizes, too, but we probably don't want those.
<Daker> godbyk, no ideas
<humphreybc> lol
<godbyk> 64, 96, or 128 kbit/s for audio?
<humphreybc> daker, how wide is the content box?
<godbyk> Daker: you have failed me! ;-)
<humphreybc> 96 should work okay
<humphreybc> i think 540x360 will fit
<humphreybc> try 540x360 @ 96 kbit/s and we'll see how that works
<godbyk> k
<Daker> on the contributors page ?
<humphreybc> nope
<humphreybc> on the bottom of the about page
<humphreybc> underneath the text "Click here to find out how you can get involved"
<humphreybc> it should be centered
<godbyk> I've submitted it for conversion.
<godbyk> They'll email me when it's done.
<humphreybc> neat
<godbyk> humphreybc: your upload speeds are horrible. :)
 * humphreybc is installing Gummi but it requires a tonne of dependencies 
<humphreybc> godbyk, haha yes I know
<Daker> Oh
<humphreybc> how fast is it going?
<godbyk> 75 K/s
<humphreybc> that's not too bad!
<humphreybc> 5 K/s would be horrible
<godbyk> Takes 3.5 minutes to nab that 16 MB file.
<godbyk> normally it'd take just a few seconds for me to download that much. :)
<humphreybc> lol
<humphreybc> boo hoo
<Daker> humphreybc, 540x360 should be great
<humphreybc> you'll have to download a 100mb file from the server in the next few days
<humphreybc> daker, excellent!
<godbyk> it's done
<humphreybc> godbyk, can you stick it on your server and embed it in the page without having to put it in the branch?
<godbyk> Daker, humphreybc: I emailed you the details on embedding it in the site.
<Daker> oki
<godbyk> humphreybc: nope 'cause it'll get overwritten when the branch updates (every 10 minutes)
<godbyk> lemme know if you hit any snags.
<humphreybc> ok
<humphreybc> i'm not embedding it, daker is!
<Daker> in the next 48hours
<humphreybc> whoops i emailed it to daker again
<humphreybc> lol
<humphreybc> it reckons i need flash player to watch it
<humphreybc> but YouTube and other flash things work fine
<humphreybc> oh no there it goes
<humphreybc> is that really widescreen?
<godbyk> it's widescreen, but not 16:9, apparently.
<humphreybc> lol okay
<humphreybc> the proportions are screwed
<godbyk> if someone gives me better dimensions I can reprocess it.
<humphreybc> can you do a custom one?
<humphreybc> okay
<godbyk> sure.
<humphreybc> try 640 x 360
<godbyk> as long as it'll fit in the website width.
<humphreybc> it should do
<humphreybc> that should be just about perfect
<humphreybc> ugh
<godbyk> 'kay. it's converting now
<humphreybc> Gummi depends on texlive
<humphreybc> so we'd have to change it/repackage it to work with our version of latex
<humphreybc> no wonder it was taking so long to download dependencies
<godbyk> humphreybc, Daker: I've emailed you the new video stuff.
<humphreybc> that's much better
<godbyk> if we're aiming to use gummi for our manual, we'd probably want a custom build anyway. we don't want folks using the low-level bold, italics, etc. commands, for instance.
<godbyk> (or at least, only in rare circumstances.)
<humphreybc> indeed
<humphreybc> we can look into that for the future
<godbyk> we should also look at improving the translation process.
<humphreybc> yea
<humphreybc> so much to do!
<godbyk> humphreybc: absolutely.
<godbyk> Daker: did you figure out how to embed the video on the site? run into any problems?
<Daker> don't worry
<Daker> ;)
<Daker> i'll use this player http://www.osflv.com/Demonstration.html
<godbyk> Daker: what's wrong with the existing player?
<humphreybc> nice, that's pretty
<humphreybc> It's not open source?
<Daker> this one http://www.osflv.com/Demonstration.html ?
<godbyk> hmm.. the osflv one hates me, apparently.
<godbyk> it's not actually playing the video.
<godbyk> (I'm using Chrome)
<godbyk> is it working for you guys or is it just me?
<humphreybc> yeah working for me
<humphreybc> i'm on chrome
<godbyk> figures! :)
<humphreybc> works well, even
<Daker> godbyk, simply jwplayer is not opensource
 * Daker is tired
<humphreybc> godbyk, daker, after we take the countdown placeholder off the main page, where are we going to put links to our Facebook/Twitter etc?
 * Daker is thinking
<humphreybc> We could just a have a small horizontal list of them at the bottom of the finished index page
<godbyk> okay, I restarted chrome and the flash player works now, but it's jerky. :-/
<godbyk> the jwplayer one is working okay, though.
<godbyk> not sure what's up.
<godbyk> Hey, Daker.  In the current countdown site, I'm getting a bunch of errors like these in the error log file:
<godbyk> [Fri Apr 16 19:00:29 2010] [error] [client 122.62.0.68] PHP Notice:  Undefined index:  quickshot in /home/godbyk/bzr/ubuntu-manual/website/daker-countdown/includes/structure.php on line 89, referer: http://ubuntu-manual.org/contributors
<godbyk> [Fri Apr 16 19:00:29 2010] [error] [client 122.62.0.68] PHP Notice:  Undefined index:  contributors in /home/godbyk/bzr/ubuntu-manual/website/daker-countdown/includes/structure.php on line 90, referer: http://ubuntu-manual.org/contributors
<godbyk> just wanted to give you a heads-up.
<godbyk> brb
<Daker> thanks
<Daker> night all
<Daker> see you in few hours
<humphreybc> night!
<humphreybc> godbyk i've added a couple new items to the agenda for this meeting
<humphreybc> have a look, and a hard think, see if you can come up with anything else we need to discuss
<godbyk> back now
<godbyk> 'kay, lemme look.
<godbyk> We should probably discuss what's going to happen during the upcoming release.  The game plan.
<godbyk> We also should talk about the second edition.. and start getting people working on that.
<humphreybc> indeed
<humphreybc> i'm just changing something
<humphreybc> then you can add that :)
<godbyk> 'kay.
<godbyk> rats.  I'll be right back again.
<humphreybc> lol ok
<godbyk> (fixing dinner)
 * humphreybc thought godbyk was hunting rats
<godbyk> back again
<godbyk> humphreybc: are you still editing the wiki?
<humphreybc> nein
<godbyk> k
<ubuntujenkins> morning
<ubuntujenkins> godbyk: can you please remove 01-live-cd-welcome@pt_BR@1271467667.png
<c7p> hello, i am using the quickshot live cd as the quickshot user, the problem is that i can't find the installation icon so as i can take the needed screenshots
<c7p> any idea?
<ubuntujenkins> c7p it should load the installer when you choose the first item of the install screenshots
<c7p> the problem is that i took 3-4 first screenshots and then i should choose a disk to make the installation. So i closed the windows to add a usb stick to choose it as the installation disk
<c7p> is there any command that you can call the installation programm?
<ubuntujenkins> this is the easiest way to fix it, alt + f2 and type ubiquity --desktop %k gtk_ui
<c7p> nice, everything ok now
<c7p> thank you
<ubuntujenkins> no problem
<dutchie> morning
<ubuntujenkins> moring dutchie
<ubuntujenkins> *n
 * humphreybc might have to catch a train from London to Brussels if this volcano keeps up!
<dutchie> that's not that bad, and you definitely won't be alone
<dutchie> i'm pretty sure at least popey is eurostarring it
<humphreybc> yeah
<humphreybc> i'll have to contact my travel agent if it doesn't look like it'll clear up
<humphreybc> =\
<humphreybc> i'd prefer the train
<dutchie> how do you intend to get to london
<humphreybc> means i could see more of europe
<humphreybc> is heathrow closed?
<dutchie> think so
<popey> dutchie: i am
<dutchie> pretty much all of northen europe was
<humphreybc> bollocks
<popey> the wiki details this
<humphreybc> well, fingers crossed it gets better
<popey> i cant see it going on that long
<humphreybc> yeah, hopefully it won't
<humphreybc> (mind you, we're not volcanologists :P )
<humphreybc> http://www.flickr.com/photos/yahooeditorspicks/galleries/72157623855495574/
<humphreybc> just out of interest, how long does it take on the train?
<popey> from london to brussels?
<humphreybc> ya
<daker> hi
 * popey checks his itinerary
<popey> 18:25 hrs
<popey> 21:30 hrs
<daker> humphreybc, you didn't sleep ?
<popey> 2 hours
<humphreybc> oh nice
<humphreybc> daker, no i've been at work :)
<daker> what do you think about Gummi ?
<humphreybc> daker, it looks cool but I haven't installed it yet because it depends on texlive
<daker> oki
<daker> humphreybc, i have an idea for the social links
<daker> we can put a dock menu at the right or the left
<humphreybc> daker: cool, what is it?
<humphreybc> a dock?
<humphreybc> hmm
<daker> one sec
<daker> http://www.ndesign-studio.com/demo/css-dock-menu/css-dock.html
<dutchie> that's quite cool
<humphreybc> that's really cool
<humphreybc> it uses CSS?
<dutchie> JS
<humphreybc> kay
<dutchie> press the magic "view source" button :)
<humphreybc> shutup
<humphreybc> :)
<humphreybc> it's neat, not sure how it would look on the right or left though. we can try it?
<humphreybc> you'd have to turn the rollover zoom level down a bit :P
<daker> oki
<daker> this is just to give you an idea
<humphreybc> and you'd need to find lovely icons for Facebook, Twitter, Identi.ca, Planet Ubuntu Manual, ubuntu.com and our wiki :)
<humphreybc> yeah, sure. Well go for it, I think it's cool
<humphreybc> probably on the right
<humphreybc> and we don't want it detracting from the site links
<daker> oki
<daker> i see
<humphreybc> dutchie, what's last.fm?
<dutchie> music streaming recommendation
<humphreybc> daker: yeah so the navigation site links like "About" "Get Involved" etc are more important than the dock links
<dutchie> humphreybc: that was quick ;)
<humphreybc> ah. Can't really do music streaming on my connection
<humphreybc> doesn't work too good
<daker> hey how to reinstall a task with tasksel ?
<daker> thorwil, ping
<thorwil> warg!
<daker> i need a service
<daker> i need icons for the website
<daker> Wiki, Facebook, Ubuntu Manual Planet ,  Twitter , IRC , Mailing List
<daker> icons pls
<daker> 32*32
<thorwil> daker: where would those show up?
<daker> at the left of all the pages
<thorwil> daker: i don't think such links should be present on all pages. after all, the main job of the website is surely not to send people elsewhere. especially not the wiki
<thorwil> daker: on top of that, i don't think expressing Wiki, Planet, IRC and Mailing List as icons is a good idea. Facebook and Twitter are not in that list only because there are established (learned) icons for them
<thorwil> vish: ^ would you agree?
<daker> thorwil, http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2010/04/17/%23ubuntu-manual.html#t03:13
<ubuntujenkins> what about a more information page with them on?
<thorwil> daker: the list at the bottom of http://ubuntu-manual.org/ is fine (except for the wrap on Ubuntu Manual Planet)
<daker> possible
<ubuntujenkins> I think the website looks nice an minimal and icons would clutter it up
<ubuntujenkins> wow 11 days unitll the mnaual is released
<daker> \o/
<ubuntujenkins> dutchie: does manualbot do a countdown for it yet?
<thorwil> i won't create icons for them, because I see no way to make clear ones. icons where people can only guess are not nice and can only be excused in cases where there is not enough space for words
<daker> thorwil, we will discuss this on the meeting
<thorwil> daker: i won't be at the meeting, it's too late for me
<daker> :s
<ubuntujenkins> I am not sure how awake i will be fore the meeting, I can't think of what the icons would look like.
<ubuntujenkins> *for
<daker> i'll make something for to night
<godbyk-android> Internet is currently offline here. I'm trying to get it resolved, but if I can't, I may not make it to the meeting this afternoon.
<godbyk-android> or I'll connect through my phone and just won't be taking much. :-)
<dutchie> ubuntujenkins: no, but it shouldn't be too hard
<godbyk-android> Hey, dutchie, did you get the translations updated?
<dutchie> ooh, no
 * dutchie does it
<ubuntujenkins> feature request please dutchie
 * godbyk-android is pondering how difficult it would be to root his phone and use it as a wireless access point.
<godbyk-android> Not that it's connection is much better, apparently.
<thorwil> http://www.azarask.in/blog/post/collaboration_made_simple_with_bracket_notation/
<vish> thorwil: +1
<vish> daker: if we are to use icons for those , we would need to use text to explain what the icons are and then having the icons becomes silly ;)
<daker> yes yes i know
<vish> thorwil: btw, why is the progress bar green on the left and red on the right?
<daker> vish, that's me
<vish> daker: the bar here http://ubuntu-manual.org/  ?
<daker> yes
<vish> daker: weird , might be better with the colors flipped :)
<daker> if yes
<thorwil> reminds me of peak meters
<daker> thorwil, oki
<thorwil> signal will be too hot once red is reached :)
<vish> hehe , seems like a conky  ;)
<thorwil> hmm, 11 days and there are rather few translations with significant progress
<vish> for a few mins i was trying to figure out the clock and the time left :)
<vish> then realized the clock might just be an icon ;)
<daker> see you in the meeting
<godbyk-android> Repair tech will be out wednesday afternoon.
<godbyk-android> Not that it does me any good right now.
<ubuntujenkins> thats a long time
<godbyk-android> Yeah, and the internet will come back up on its own usually
<godbyk> online again.
<godbyk> we'll see how long it lasts.
<thorwil> godbyk: welcome back. so what was with that Hulu thing?
<godbyk> ubuntujenkins: I removed that file for you.
<godbyk> thorwil: what hulu thing?
<thorwil> godbyk: wrap-around cover
<godbyk> thorwil: ah! lulu
<godbyk> there's a calculator on their site.
<godbyk> one moment
<godbyk> thorwil: http://www.lulu.com/en/includes/calc_spine_inc.php?cid=us_bk
<thorwil> godbyk: which binding? color? page count? standard grade paper?
<godbyk> thorwil: yeah, I dunno yet.
<thorwil> godbyk: the other question i had is if this would be english only
<godbyk> my best guess is that it'll be 8.5x11, perfect bound, b&w, and standard grade paper.
<godbyk> but I think we're going to decide on that during today's meeting.
<thorwil> godbyk: if you make it to the meeting, you could also bring up the question of what should be on the backside
<godbyk> Initially, it'll be just the English edition (since that's all we have right now). But we could do translated versions, too.
<godbyk> thorwil: I'll do that (if my connection hangs in there)
<thorwil> just added a note to the meeting agenda bout that
<godbyk> thorwil: thanks
<dutchie> godbyk: IT'S B0RKED
<dutchie> FIX IT NOW
<dutchie> godbyk: also, fix your intenet
<godbyk_> dutchie: heh, I'm trying, believe it.  it's so frustrating!
<godbyk_> I'm upstairs on my laptop leeching wifi from the neighbors now.
<godbyk_> I asked the tech on the phone if they could replace my cable modem and also check the cable lines outside (as those are the only things they haven't done yet).
<godbyk_> he said that they can't do that until the third tech has come out and worked on whatever.
<godbyk_> he'll be here wednesday afternoon.
<godbyk_> and I'm guessing that he'll simply cut the ends off the existing cables and replace them with new connectors (just like the previous two techs did).
<dutchie> anyway, make: *** [main.pdf] Killed
<godbyk> dutchie: Killed?  that's a new one.
<dutchie> indeed :(
<godbyk> it sounds like one of the processes died.
<godbyk> have you ran 'make clean' and tried it again?
<dutchie> yes
<godbyk> what was the last thing it did before make gave up?
<dutchie> pastebinning now
<godbyk> k
<dutchie> http://paste.ubuntu.com/416317/
<godbyk> any bets on if/when humphreybc will show up? :)
<godbyk> dutchie: that's weird.  run 'xelatex main' and see what it does.
<dutchie> prints out a load of /usr/local/texlive/.../*.sty stuff then fails to find makecmds.sty
<godbyk> dutchie: weird. run 'sudo tlmgr install makecmds'
<godbyk> then try xelatex again.
<dutchie> seems to be working
<godbyk> 'kay.
<godbyk> looks like makecmds isn't in my install-pkgs.sh script as a prereq.
<godbyk> I didn't realize we needed it.  I'll look into it.
<godbyk> dutchie: have you looked into updating the pot file yet?
<dutchie> it ran to completion (complaining about references)
<dutchie> godbyk: yeah, I get an error about reading from a file without a name
<godbyk> dutchie: cool.  'make clean; make' should work now, then.
<dutchie> yes, it's going along happily now
<godbyk> what's the command you used to get that error? I'll try it on my laptop.
<dutchie> I've forgotten now
<dutchie> I'm reduced to my netbook after my laptop PSU exploded in a fit of sparks and smoke
<godbyk> lovely
<dutchie> /bin/bash: makeglossaries: command not found
<godbyk> dutchie: run the install-pkgs.sh script.
<godbyk> sounds like you're missing a few things.
<dutchie> also, in non UMP stuff, you wouldn't happen to know how to get epstopdf installed from upstream TL?
<dutchie> I did run the script
<godbyk> dutchie: "sudo tlmgr install epstopdf" might work.
<godbyk> also "sudo tlmgr install makeglossaries" to install that.
<dutchie> Checking for executable file xindy...not found.
<dutchie> then it installed it
<godbyk> dutchie: you may need to apt-get install perl-tk; sudo tlmgr --gui; Actions menu > Symlinks blahblah > Update symlinks
<dutchie> doing it
<godbyk> k
<godbyk> brb. going to reconnect to my own wifi as it looks like that connections back up (for who knows how long)
<godbyk> neighbor's wifi is pretty slow (from here)
<godbyk__> back
<dutchie> got enough underscores?
<ubuntujenkins> thanks for removing it godbyk
<dutchie> godbyk: it got killed again
<ubuntujenkins> have i missed much?
<dutchie> godbyk: did you get that?
<godbyk> dutchie: did I get what?
<dutchie> make getting killed again
<godbyk> xelatex again?
<godbyk> and if you run "xelatex main"?
<dutchie> it got further this time
<godbyk> where'd it die now? if you want, you can pastebin the .log file.
<dutchie> godbyk: I don't have a .log file :)
<dutchie> it's back to what it did before
<dutchie> ooh, it got killed
<godbyk> dutchie: does 'xelatex main' work?
<dutchie> no
<dutchie> This is XeTeX, Version 3.1415926-2.2-0.9995.2 (TeX Live 2009)
<dutchie> Killed
<godbyk> uhh...
<godbyk> Killed by whom? Why?
<dutchie> dunno
<godbyk> dutchie: create a file with these four lines in it:
<godbyk> \documentclass{article}
<godbyk> \begin{document}
<godbyk> Hello, world!
<godbyk> \end{document}
<godbyk> then run 'xelatex myfile.tex' and see if it works.
<godbyk> (should generate myfile.pdf)
<dutchie> killed
<godbyk> dutchie: here's my wild-ass guess: the xelatex binary is screwed up somehow and is segfaulting (or something), which is being reported as the process being killed.
<dutchie> sounds plausible
<godbyk> dutchie: maybe try 'sudo tlmgr install --reinstall xelatex'
<godbyk> make sure it using the right binary (for the proper platform)
<dutchie> are we going in here or #ubuntu-meeting
<dutchie> godbyk: package xelatex not present in package repository.
<dutchie> according to sudo tlmgr install --reinstall xelatex
<godbyk> dutchie: sorry.. xetex
<dutchie> ok, it's got the right arch at least
<godbyk> that's good.
<godbyk> hopefully reinstalling it will work.
<ubuntujenkins> meeting in an hour right?
<dutchie> godbyk: I think I've worked out the problem
<dutchie> nothing to do with xelatex
<dutchie> everything to do with me having no memory left :(
<godbyk> aha.
<godbyk> that'd do it.
<godbyk> ubuntujenkins: yep.
<godbyk> the docs that exist in the System > Help and Support area.. are those written by the Ubuntu docs team?  Or just inherited from GNOME?
<ubuntujenkins> godbyk: docs team
<godbyk> and should my lucid installation have up-to-date docs there (i.e,. for lucid)?
<ubuntujenkins> as far as i know
<dutchie> godbyk: it's working now :)
<dutchie> po4a --no-translations -MUTF-8 --copyright-holder="The Ubuntu Manual Team" --package-version=`bzr revno` --package-name=ubuntu-manual po4a.conf
<godbyk> dutchie: great!
<dutchie> ^^ that's the command, but it's decided to work for me now
<godbyk> and that command updates the pot file?
<dutchie> and the po files
<godbyk> 'cause when I ran it yesterday it only updated the po files (and not the pot file)
<dutchie> oh yeah
 * dutchie will see what happens
<godbyk> ubuntujenkins: i want to scream a lot about these docs and the help system.
<ubuntujenkins> I uninstalled them :P , I didn't know they existed untill i started on this project. I used google
<godbyk> I was looking at them to see what names they're using for some applets, but the search function is completely useless.
<ubuntujenkins> the help system is soo slow
<godbyk> and it's slow.
<godbyk> took 5-10 seconds before anything appeared in the window on startup
<godbyk> since search didn't help, I started browsing.
<ubuntujenkins> exactly, i always think its broken
<godbyk> that was also a dead-end
<godbyk> found what I thought would be helpful, except all the info was ancient.  (as in the screenshot looked like it was from 2001)
<godbyk> okay, I'll be right back. I have to reboot.  (just installed tons of lucid updates.)
<godbyk> 12 seconds to load the help this time.
<ubuntujenkins> are you looking for something in particular
<godbyk> I started out poking around to see if they have an official (public) name for the MeMenu.
<godbyk> but no mention of that at all.
<godbyk> at least not in any of the places I looked in the help.
<dutchie> godbyk: try asking #ubuntu-desktop
<godbyk> dutchie: thanks
<godbyk> I'm also just poking around to see what they've got in there.
<dutchie> godbyk: it seems to have updated the pot file
<dutchie> but jesus christ, is that a big diff
<dutchie> $ bzr diff | wc -l
<dutchie> 1009450
<ubuntujenkins> will the translators be angry?
<ubuntujenkins> thats a lot of changes
<dutchie> most of it is line refs, so not a big worry
<dutchie> evening humphreybc
<humphreybc> hey josh, that was quick
<ubuntujenkins> hello humphreybc
<humphreybc> morning :)
<humphreybc> obviously you two aren't out partying on your saturday night and have chosen instead to attend a meeting on IRC :)
<humphreybc> good choice :)
<daker> brb
<ubuntujenkins> yep, I have lots of uni stuff to do. so need sleep afterwards
<dutchie> humphreybc: I did my partying on a thursday night, and my cultural theatre trips on a friday night :)
<humphreybc> hahaha
<humphreybc> nice
<godbyk> dutchie: yeah, I noticed when it fiddled with the .po files that it moved all the :linenum to its own line (whereas it was on the previous line with the filename before). what's up with that?
<dutchie> godbyk: po4a has its own preferences for where the line numbers go
<dutchie> nothing to read into it really
<godbyk> I see.
<dutchie> might look at getting some sort of patch going to deflate the diffs a bit
<godbyk> and we want to ignore changes that po4a makes to the .po files, right?
<dutchie> doesn't matter really
<godbyk> launchpad doesn't bother with the .po files?
<godbyk> it'd also make the diff smaller (and help keep the bzr repository trim), wouldn't it?
<dutchie> it does import changes
<dutchie> so someone could use a different translation tool than rosetta, and they'd end up being imported by LP on uploades
<dutchie> -e
<dutchie> right, pushed
<godbyk> okay.. so it sounds like after running po4a (to update the po and pot files), we should run 'bzr revert po/*.po' or something so we ignore the changes to the po files (before committing/pushing)?
<godbyk> or am I misunderstanding?
<dutchie> there's no reason we shouldn't, but it doesn't feel right for some reason
<godbyk> my thinking is that the .po files that po4a modifies are already out of date.
<dutchie> that's why it modifies them, in a way
<godbyk> so we should ignore them entirely and just pull fresh copies from launchpad.
<godbyk> what modifications does it do (aside from line numbers)?
 * dutchie checks the diff
<dutchie> it fiddles about with the whitespace
<dutchie> and it scraps all the old out of date stuff
<humphreybc> everyone in #ubuntu-meeting?
#ubuntu-manual 2010-04-18
<daker> godbyk, if you could pls point test.ubuntu-manual.org to lp:ubuntu-manual-website/main ??
<godbyk> daker: sure. give me a few minutes to download that repository.
<daker> oki
<godbyk> (and hope that my internet connection holds up!)
<daker> lp:ubuntu-manual-website
<godbyk> daker: do you want me to set it to auto-update?
<daker> yes
<humphreybc> daker: how long are you going to be around for?
<daker> about 2hours or less
<godbyk> daker: should be up now.
<humphreybc> ah
<humphreybc> i'll get that mockup done later today, you'll see it in your inbox when you come back tomorrow
<humphreybc> godbyk, what am I looking at?
<humphreybc> ah ha
<humphreybc> video
<humphreybc> fantastic
<godbyk> ?
<godbyk> http://test.ubuntu-manual.org/
<humphreybc> yeah
<humphreybc> video is there
<humphreybc> daker, contributors page is looking great
<daker> :D
<humphreybc> i'll finish the contributors video today and re-render it
<daker> see the new shadowbox
<humphreybc> shadowbox?
<daker> there is a shadow arround the page content
<humphreybc> there is?
<daker> yes
<humphreybc> I can't see it
<daker> your are using Chrome ?
<humphreybc> yup
<daker> screenshot pls
<humphreybc> i can see it in firefox
<humphreybc> screenshot in a sec
<humphreybc> http://humphreybc.homeip.net/files/ump-no-shadow.png
<daker> this in Chrome ?
<humphreybc> yep
<daker> odd
<godbyk> daker: is the language dropdown filled dynamically based on which translation files are available? or is the list hard-coded?
<daker> in filed on the includes/config.php file
<daker> it's*
<humphreybc> hehehe
<humphreybc> "mptÂ @TheUbuntuManualÂ Iâm torn between feeling lust for real Marmite, or alarm that a book is eating toast."
<daker> hhhh
<daker> godbyk, you can see the shadowbox ?
<daker> humphreybc, http://img265.imageshack.us/img265/9573/capturesq.png
<humphreybc> daker, yeah, it looks like that in firefox for me
<humphreybc> i'll do a side-by-side comparison for ye
<daker> you are sur that there is no cache files?
<humphreybc> positive
<humphreybc> http://humphreybc.homeip.net/files/ff-chrome-ump.png
<humphreybc> chrome on the left, firefox on the right
<godbyk> daker: I'm using Chrome and can't see it either.
<daker> normaly the css should works, tbBox-shadow is supported by Firefox (since the latest 3.5 version), Safari (since version 3.1) and by Chrome (since its first version) and Opera
<daker> the* Box-shadow
<daker> this is really odd
 * daker is installing Chrome
<daker> godbyk, other thing
<daker> if you could pls push the lp:ubuntu-manua-website/main/includes/languages/ubu_man_website_translations.pot
<daker> to the main branch of the manual in /website/includes/languages/
<daker> replace the old one
<godbyk> daker: yeah, let me look into it.
<daker> yeah humphreybc it doesn't work in chrome
<humphreybc> oh well
<humphreybc> remove the drop shadow altogether
<humphreybc> my mockup for the social thing will work better without a drop shadow around the content box
<daker> let me look :)
<humphreybc> i haven't made it yet :P
<daker> oki
<godbyk> humphreybc: amazon just emailed me this recommendation: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0596804849/ref=snp_dp
<humphreybc> hey nice, an O'Reilly book
<humphreybc> covers 10.04 too
<humphreybc> very ugly cover :P
<humphreybc> he's probably pissed at us for stealing all the glory
<humphreybc> (and being a damn sight cheaper)
<humphreybc> anyway, i'm off, gotta do some chores
<godbyk> k
<daker> Daker-shbot, ping
<daker> Daker-shbot: ping
<Daker-shbot> pong
<daker> night all
<humphreybc> godbyk, what do you reckon
<humphreybc> http://humphreybc.homeip.net/files/social-top.png
<humphreybc> or
<humphreybc> http://humphreybc.homeip.net/files/social-right.png
<IlyaHaykinson> sorry all, had to miss the meeting earlier
<humphreybc> Ilya, no worries
<humphreybc> check out http://pad.ubuntu-uk.org/MaiZTb4Fjd
<humphreybc> godbyk, what do I have to do?
<IlyaHaykinson> nod. just finished going through logs and through the pads
<humphreybc> groovy
<IlyaHaykinson> i like the persona thing (though we'll want to spend a bit more time testing that persona -- for example, we should be sure that it'll resonate with our readers.. perhaps we can create four or five abridged personae and run through them with a quick survey)
<IlyaHaykinson> the other thing is i'm not sure about the #3 goal for maverick
<IlyaHaykinson> i.e. the developer manual etc
<humphreybc> what are you not sure about It?
<humphreybc> that doesn't make sense but i'm sure you get me haha
<IlyaHaykinson> right. i guess i would rather focus on ubuntu, still, but focus on completeness
<IlyaHaykinson> we have a lot (a _lot_) of holes in the manual right now
<humphreybc> yup, and we're going to fix those for the lucid 2nd edition
<IlyaHaykinson> and i think it'd take some effort to fill them.
<IlyaHaykinson> well, no, i don't mean bugs
<IlyaHaykinson> or just thigns that are slightly off.
<humphreybc> sure
<IlyaHaykinson> i think we can get things fixed up into shape and 100% error free for Lucid-E2
<humphreybc> we've got six months. we're aiming for the 2nd edition to have all _bugs_ fixed and the maverick release to have all the (relevant) content there
<humphreybc> meanwhile we can work on the contributors manual too
<humphreybc> most of which won't be written from scratch
<IlyaHaykinson> i guess i am not sure what the contributors manual woudl include
<humphreybc> it would basically be an introduction to each area that people can contribute to
<humphreybc> there would be a summary of what that would involve, what prior experience you'll need (if any), perhaps some instructions on how to get started and then contact details/links for further help
<IlyaHaykinson> i.e. "how to contribute to ubuntu design", "how to be a gnome developer", "packaging apps"?
<IlyaHaykinson> why should _our_ team do this?
<humphreybc> why shouldn't we?
<IlyaHaykinson> well, for one, it seems quite different from a normal manual.
<humphreybc> it is
<IlyaHaykinson> i think that we (should) have our hands full of the main manual
<IlyaHaykinson> i.e. the best _user_ manual
<IlyaHaykinson> whereas the contributor manual seems somewhat orthogonal to our focus
<IlyaHaykinson> i don't mean to disparage it. it's a great idea.
<IlyaHaykinson> but it seems like the problems that we have for maverick are pretty large
<humphreybc> i'm confident we can do well
<humphreybc> hopefully after UDS we'll have better ties with the docs team and the learning project
<IlyaHaykinson> 1) open office, 2) there'll be major changes, probably with a new gnome, 3) actually useful troubleshooting sections
<humphreybc> right. gnome-shell isn't going to be in maverick
<IlyaHaykinson> ah.
<humphreybc> well, it's highly unlikely
<IlyaHaykinson> and of course the other two big efforts in using the persona and creating a good quick-start guide
<IlyaHaykinson> i guess i think with a contributor guide we'd be spreading ourselves too thin
<humphreybc> the contributors manual will be a lot different to what we've already done, in the fact that it will mainly re-use content from the respective help on team pages etc
<IlyaHaykinson> plus there is no hard deadline for a contributor guide. i.e. we could say that we can work on it after the maverick freeze, for example.
<humphreybc> we have to have a new publication every release if we want to keep growing and attracting new people, it'll be difficult but I reckon we can nail it.
<humphreybc> yeah well exactly, the contributors guide doesn't have to come out at maverick
<IlyaHaykinson> ok. i still don't like it super-much in terms of focus, but as long as it does not get in the way of the main manual work, i support it.
<humphreybc> yeah, it won't, top priority is the ubuntu manual
<humphreybc> all of this is subject to a few things, like if we have enough people, if we have enough interest from the rest of the community
<IlyaHaykinson> also, a question about lulu.com -- was a decision made to use it?
<humphreybc> yep
<IlyaHaykinson> i don't really understand the workflow.
<IlyaHaykinson> it seems like with lulu anyone can print a copy.
<humphreybc> godbyk can explain, if he's around
<IlyaHaykinson> if _we_ print a bunch of copies, we'd have to pay for shipping to someone's location. and then that person would have to pay for shipping to each user.
<humphreybc> no, we don't print them
<humphreybc> we just upload the PDF and make it available, then people order it as if they were ordering a book from amazon
<IlyaHaykinson> ok. so in that case it just saves them the step of uploading, right?
<humphreybc> but we upload it with set options like black and white, paperback, sizes and stuff
<humphreybc> basically, yeah
<IlyaHaykinson> there's no price break, and it's free for us.
<humphreybc> doesn't cost us a cent
<humphreybc> and all the customer pays for is the cost of printing and shipping
<humphreybc> we don't make any money
<humphreybc> hence why we can offer it for $9.75 USD
<humphreybc> for the most basic version
<IlyaHaykinson> ok.
<humphreybc> :)
<IlyaHaykinson> well, except for the cheap paper.
<IlyaHaykinson> + shipping
<humphreybc> yeah I think that's + shipping
<humphreybc> basically our project should keep growing and we should have many publications available for users to choose from
<humphreybc> in all sorts of formats and covering lots of different topics
<humphreybc> that's the ultimate goal
<IlyaHaykinson> nod
<humphreybc> our flagship will always be "Getting Started with Ubuntu" though
<humphreybc> and each new feature for each release doesn't have to be a new manual
<humphreybc> we could have a LaTeX GUI editor for the 11.04 cycle
<humphreybc> or maybe our own translation infastructure
<IlyaHaykinson> blurb.com also prints books... seems like it may be cheaper
<IlyaHaykinson> http://www.blurb.com/create/book/pricing#bw-text
<humphreybc> or our own bug reporting tool using the launchpad API
<humphreybc> there are literally "unlimited possibilities" for our team ;)
<humphreybc> true, a dollar cheaper
<IlyaHaykinson> actually that cheaper pricing is for smaller page sizes
<humphreybc> 5x8 inches
<humphreybc> that's quite small
<humphreybc> it would probably work out around the same price
<IlyaHaykinson> yeah, lulu makes the most sense
<IlyaHaykinson> you know, we should probably have a "read online" version on the site... using the google PDF reader, which i think you can embed
<IlyaHaykinson> so that people don't need to download the PDF
<humphreybc> yeah, I think someone else mentioned that
<IlyaHaykinson> also check out https://www.createspace.com/Products/Book/
<vish> humphreybc: " covering lots of different topics "  ? expanding the manual?
<humphreybc> vish, hmm?
<vish>  <humphreybc> in all sorts of formats and covering lots of different topics
<vish> was just reading the scrollback and noticed that :)
<vish> humphreybc> basically our project should keep growing and we should have many publications available for users to choose from
<humphreybc> oh yeah
<vish> humphreybc: heys , i'll be at the UDS too :)
<vish> heya*
<humphreybc> nice!
<humphreybc> what day do you arrive?
<vish> 9th
<vish> humphreybc: hehe , my flight arrives at 7am and i thought i was early ;p
<humphreybc> lol
<vish> humphreybc: btw, sort your time by arrival! you have it among the 9th arrivals ;)
<humphreybc> i do?
<humphreybc> link?
<vish> humphreybc: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UDS-M/Attendees
<humphreybc> oh i forgot to change the date
<humphreybc> i do arrive on the 9th
<vish> ha , then infact I'm early :s
<humphreybc> lol you are
<humphreybc> changed
<vish> humphreybc: the share a taxi column is to select that you *want/prefer* to share  or already have a person you are sharing with?
<vish> the ./
<humphreybc> I think it's want/prefer
<vish> k.
<vish> well popey might know.. ;) popey^ ? prefer or already have a person ?
<humphreybc> he'll be asleep :P
<humphreybc> it's 6am on a sunday morning
<vish> lazy brits ;p
<humphreybc> it's prefer, because i know that everyone isn't already hooked up that well
<vish> ah , cool
<humphreybc> my roommate is on the same flight as me :D
<vish> yup , popey is probably still asleep , no tweets ;)
<vish> humphreybc: lucky you!
<humphreybc> change of plan, we're not going to do the contributors manual, instead we're doing something better
<dutchie> humphreybc: thought of something else for that LP translations thing
<ubuntujenkins> morning
<dutchie> o/
<humphreybc> dutchie: sort of, will keep thinking and I'll have something more concrete after UDS
<humphreybc> (oh no it's nothing to do with translations)
<dutchie> I meant I did
<dutchie> could be useful to be able to get a list of everyone who's contributed a translation
<humphreybc> oh righto
<humphreybc> true
<humphreybc> let's add our ideas to this
<humphreybc> http://pad.ubuntu-uk.org/UMPtranslations
 * popey waves
<humphreybc> hey Alan
<humphreybc> you're up way too early for a Sunday
<popey> the taxi column is "I am willing/able to share" as opposed to "I have made my own arrangements"
<popey> i have kids
<popey> been up for over an hour
<humphreybc> Cool, vish, you get that?
<popey> watching the GP whilst making bacon sarnies
<humphreybc> Martin and I are on the same plane from London which is nice, so we're going to catch the train
<humphreybc> I think I'm rooming with him too
<popey> plane from london to..?
<humphreybc> ah yes, kids, of course
<humphreybc> brussels
<popey> ah, and train from there
<humphreybc> yeah
<humphreybc> it's like 9 euro and a few minutes walk to train, opposed to like 50 euro for a taxi
<humphreybc> or so the wiki reckons :P
<vish> popey: thanks :)
<vish> humphreybc: i was actually thinking of using the train too.. would be nice to have a look around ;)
<humphreybc> yeah
<humphreybc> absolutely
<humphreybc> is anyone keen to go and have a look at the musical instruments museum?
<humphreybc> Martin and I might go along on Saturday
<humphreybc> we go out for dinner each night, right popey?
<dutchie> where is the uds?#
<humphreybc> http://www.dolce-la-hulpe-brussels-hotel.com/
<dutchie> so in brussels
<humphreybc> yea
<humphreybc> what were you in Brussels for recently dutchie?
<dutchie> never actually been to brussels
<dutchie> i spent 4 days rowing in gent
<humphreybc> ah, rowing in belgium. gotcha
<humphreybc> I can't wait to see some old architecture
<humphreybc> NZ is a really new country (<200 years old) so we don't have a lot of grand old buildings down here
<dutchie> sounds distinctly usanian, that
<popey> humphreybc: not always
<popey> there are a few events organised
<popey> but often it's just people get together and say 'lets go out'
<popey> one of the problems is the number of people
<humphreybc> oh nice, such as? I know there is stuff on the friday like the all stars (which i'm hopefully going to be playing drums for)
<popey> if everyone goes out together we'll never find a restaurant big enough
<humphreybc> this is cool: http://www.wmagazine.com/images/travel/2008/11/trar_brussels_02.jpg
<popey> in seville we went to a castle/museum
<popey> in SFO we went to the computer history museum
<humphreybc> where were the last 6 UDS'?
<popey> sevilla, boston, barcelona, texas, san francisco, prague
<popey> not in that order
<humphreybc> Prague would have been cool
<dutchie> prague's nice
<humphreybc> so where's UDS-N going to be... USA...
<popey> it usually alternates between europe and usa, yes
<humphreybc> One in Canada would be neat
<popey> so the order of those above was sevilla, boston, prague, san francisco, barcelona, texas
<humphreybc> neat
<humphreybc> your pick for UDS-N?
<dutchie> worcester
<humphreybc> hahahahahaha
<popey> it will already be at least pencilled in
<humphreybc> yeah i'd imagine they'd book a bit in advance
<dutchie> actually, by then I'll probably be at uni
<popey> finding a decent venue for it is hard
<humphreybc> Montana?
<nisshh> hey all
<nisshh> im back
<humphreybc> I was looking at the Dolce chain of hotels before, pretty amazing
<popey> the canonical IS guys go in and take over the internet access, replacing all their access points with ubuntu ones
<humphreybc> http://www.dolce.com/portfolio/portfolio.asp?LangID=1
<popey> so we get flooded wifi access
<humphreybc> oh really? nice. "Ubuntu ones" are special ones that can handle a tonne of connections?
<humphreybc> hey nisshh back from your holiday!
<popey> well, just well managed ones :)
<humphreybc> haha nice
 * dutchie is reminded of the oggcamp wifi
<popey> and yes, they can cope with 200 odd people in one room
<humphreybc> because the place is booked for a week, right
<humphreybc> two weeks*
<nisshh> humphreybc: yay!
<dutchie> "there are two access points. one is the hotel's, which is rubbish. the other is this phone..."
<humphreybc> dutchie: lol
<popey> yeah, my nokia n82 :)
<popey> running joikuspot
<humphreybc> haha, so dutchie and popey, you've met?
<popey> ya
<humphreybc> nice
<nisshh> cool
<humphreybc> (they both live in the UK, unlike us nisshh) :P
<popey> i have met 5 people in this channel
<nisshh> humphreybc: hows the manual coming?
<humphreybc> cool, who?
<nisshh> hehe
<nisshh> not me
<popey> dave, dutchie, issy, jussi, pleia
<humphreybc> nisshh: have a look for yourself :P not a lot has changed since the freeze, just working on translations
<humphreybc> neat
 * dutchie got 4 out of 5
<popey> issy lives about 1 mile from me
<popey> small world :)
<humphreybc> there is only one other person in NZ going to UDS
<humphreybc> a Canonical employee from Auckland, I believe
<nisshh> poms are strange :)
 * dutchie and popey have a nice long car journey to bond in soon :)
<humphreybc> Tim (thum per) was going to go but I don't think he is now
<humphreybc> the only other person I've met in person through Ubuntu is Tim, who lives in Dunedin
<humphreybc> dutchie: you guys going someplace?
<dutchie> oggcamp 10
<humphreybc> oh neat
<humphreybc> when's that?
<nisshh> i would go to oggcamp if i lived in the UK
<dutchie> weekend of may 1st
<humphreybc> nisshh: heh, same here
 * humphreybc probably should have gone to LCA when it was in Wellington
<popey> ooo dutchie that reminds me!
<popey> dutchie: do you have a laptop with optical drive?
<dutchie> maybe
<dutchie> it's not in a very good way
<popey> we're going to spend the journey burning Lucid CDs :)
<dutchie> wonderful
<humphreybc> hahahaha! how long's the car trip?
<popey> Al has an inverter in his car so we can keep laptops charged, and burn a load of CDs
<dutchie> my psu exploded
<popey> http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=FQ-yDgMdlkX0_yk7diSEwip0SDGqNq3it-vKNA%3BFdn7LgMd0o_S_ym3YHBkit96SDEBbhc_bwTcQg&q=gu14+to+liverpool&sll=53.800651,-4.064941&sspn=21.771205,29.663086&ie=UTF8&z=8&saddr=gu14&daddr=liverpool
<popey> 4 hours
<humphreybc> that's not too bad
<humphreybc> oh nice it's in Liverpool
<dutchie> might be a bit longer going via worcester
<humphreybc> so popey, you live in Farnborough?
<popey> ya
<humphreybc> great, ever been to the Farnborough Air Show?
<popey> yes
 * humphreybc is jealous
<popey> dont often need to given they fly over my hosue
<popey> house*
 * humphreybc is even more jealous
<humphreybc> wow, Ivanka commutes from Brighton each day. that's ages away.
<popey> nah
<popey> direct line from brighton to victoria
<popey> not bad
<humphreybc> okay
<nisshh> brb
<humphreybc> popey: I see you're on the same train as Alan Bell, that'll be good
<humphreybc> did anyone look at my proposals for the social media buttons on our site?
<popey> yes
<humphreybc> top, or left?
<popey> er, train
<humphreybc> i mean
<humphreybc> right
<humphreybc> oh
<humphreybc> hahaha
<humphreybc> what a hilarious misunderstanding
<popey> http://carfax.org.uk/node/73
<popey> Alan Bell on the left, Me on the right, Alan Lord in the middle
<humphreybc> the 3 alans?
<humphreybc> like the three stooges haha
<popey> :D
<dutchie> http://thealans.com
<humphreybc> oh for the love of
<ubuntujenkins> we discussed it and couldn't decide what to make them look like, I also commented that the website looks realy clean and it would clutter it. We could have a more info page with them on (  humphreybc )
<humphreybc> hmm. I want the social buttons to be available across all pages
<humphreybc> Alan and open source go hand in hand, obviously
<ubuntujenkins> thorwill pointed out that with out writing facebook wiki irc on icons it would be hard for people to work out what they were
<humphreybc> we're not going to have a link to irc or the wiki
<humphreybc> just facebook, twitter, the planet and ubuntu.com
<humphreybc> facebook and twitter are fairly obvious
<humphreybc> you're right
<ubuntujenkins> that was in the list mentioned yesterday by daker
<humphreybc> but i don't want to clutter it even more with words
<humphreybc> yeah i changed my mind :P
<ubuntujenkins> the list here http://ubuntu-manual.org/ is fine really
<humphreybc> yeah but that page is disappearing soon
<ubuntujenkins> move it to get involved?
<humphreybc> maybe but i kinda want even regular people to know about our social feeds
<humphreybc> cos then they can see updates when we release new products and languages
<ubuntujenkins> true, we will find a home for it
<humphreybc> heh
<humphreybc> we shall
<humphreybc> what do I want from the USA?
<ubuntujenkins> have we got/ can we do an ubuntu-manual release mailing list? people could sign up to it and we only send an e-mail wehn a release is doen?
<humphreybc> that's a grand idea
<humphreybc> we could just do a thing where they punch in their email address and choose a language, then they only get emailed when their language is released
<humphreybc> and for new product releases we could email all languages
<humphreybc> but a release ML could work equally as well
<ubuntujenkins> yep, anyu of those would work, I like the language selection as that way we reduce the trash people don't want
<humphreybc> yup
<humphreybc> hey does anyone know if Qantas international flights have powerpoints in economy class?
<ubuntujenkins> and it makes all the difference?
<nisshh> humphreybc: no idea but i know domestic flights dont
<humphreybc> yeah, i could actually do some work on the plane then
<nisshh> hey, anyone here use a netbook with ubuntu on it?
<ubuntujenkins> with all the noise from the screeming babies
<nisshh> im looking at buying one
<humphreybc> http://danwarne.com/qantas-a380-flying-economy/
<nisshh> ubuntujenkins: lol
<humphreybc> I'm on the A380 on the way over
<humphreybc> looks like i'll have to pickup an aussie power adapter
<humphreybc> hey, great
<humphreybc> they have internet
<humphreybc> i'll be able to talk to you guys while i'm on the plane haha
<nisshh> humphreybc: do you want me to show you how to use an aussie power point?
<humphreybc> sure
<nisshh> lol
<ubuntujenkins> that plane looks cool
<humphreybc> drive to the airport at sydney and drop me off an adapter if you can
<nisshh> they are less complicated than american powerpoints
<dutchie> I think nisshh may be suggesting the use of a hamme
<dutchie> r
<dutchie> stupid broken r key
<nisshh> humphreybc: no way, thats 3000km's
<humphreybc> and?
<humphreybc> haha
<nisshh> meh
<nisshh> dutchie: rrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr :)
 * dutchie copies one for future use
<ubuntujenkins> quickshot meeting tonight anyone who isn't going to make it got any suggestions?
<nisshh> dutchie: lol
<humphreybc> win, looks like they're retro-fitted some 747's too with internet and power
<nisshh> ubuntujenkins: what time is the meeting?
<ubuntujenkins> 8.00utc
<ubuntujenkins> pm
<humphreybc> I might be able to do lots of work on my 64 hours I spend in a plane...
<humphreybc> that's almost 3 straight days of flying
<humphreybc> (this is including the return trip)
<dutchie> where in god's name are you flying to/from?
<nisshh> ubuntujenkins: hmmmm, nah thats a bit late for me
<nisshh> UDS?
<nisshh> im guessing
<ubuntujenkins> thats, cool nisshh
<humphreybc> Christchurch - Sydney - Singapore - London - Brussels - London - Bangkok - Sydney - Christchurch
<nisshh> humphreybc: ooooooohhhh, cool trip!
<humphreybc> i might watch a movie now
 * humphreybc doesn't have uni tomorrow
<humphreybc> ubuntujenkins: do you need me at the QS meeting?
<ubuntujenkins> if you want to come you are welcome humphreybc, don't think it matters either way we are basically going over http://pad.ubuntu-uk.org/f0VIdaLXWZ and checking we are happy with it. any other suggestions?
<humphreybc> I think you've got it pretty well covered :P
<humphreybc> top priority (after bug fixing) should be support for configuration so other projects can use the program
<ubuntujenkins> the list isn't too long :P
<ubuntujenkins> thats what we were planing
<humphreybc> fantastic
<humphreybc> apart from that, you guys seem to know what you're doing!
<ubuntujenkins> are their any projects that want to use it ?
<humphreybc> not currently, but later this year the Learning project will
<humphreybc> and the docs team might be interested too
<ubuntujenkins> learning project?
<humphreybc> not sure about projects outside of Canonical
<humphreybc> yeah, the learning guys, Martin Owens, Liz Krumbach etc... they're making classroom materials for Ubuntu, among other things
<humphreybc> they're going to be using a lot of our content from Getting Started with Ubuntu 10.04
<ubuntujenkins> I think i have heard of that at some point.
<humphreybc> how exactly that will work is going to be sorted out at UDS
<ubuntujenkins> what uds sessions effect this project?
<humphreybc> anyway, movie time!
<humphreybc> quickshot or ump?
<ubuntujenkins> both
<humphreybc> just the ones I have registered, and one that Liz is registering soon I think
<humphreybc> unfortunately not many docs team folk are going to UDS
<ubuntujenkins> I may try and watch remotley when i can
<humphreybc> sure, i'll let the team know when any sessions regarding UMP are coming up
<ubuntujenkins> thanks
<humphreybc> right, ping me on Google Talk if anyone needs me
<humphreybc> chow
<c7p> hello
<ubuntujenkins> hello c7p
<c7p> the "\notecallout{The If you are not very familiar with advanced computing in Ubuntu you may wish to stick with the \application{Software Center}." is right as sentence/string or not ?
<ubuntujenkins> I think the first "The" should be removed
<c7p> so do I, should I report it as bug?
<ubuntujenkins> please do, send my the bug number and i can confirm it.
<c7p> ok
<c7p> here you are
<c7p> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual/+bug/565843
<manualbot> Launchpad bug 565843 in ubuntu-manual "string 1309 misprint" [Undecided,New]
<ubuntujenkins> thanks c7p
<c7p> np
<c7p> g2g, see you
<ubuntujenkins> hola daker
<daker> hi ubuntujenkins
<daker> humphreybc, ping
<nisshh> daker: humphreybc is watching a movie, he said to ping him on google talk if you needed him
<daker> oki
<nisshh> brb
<humphreybc> hey daker, what's up?
<daker> the right side would be great
<daker> so i need the icons
<humphreybc> okay
<humphreybc> you might be able to make a nicer Planet Ubuntu Manual icon
<nisshh> humphreybc: is there anything important i should know about what was discussed at the meeting last night
<humphreybc> not particularly
<nisshh> so i presume the second edition is still happening?
<humphreybc> daker: emailing them to you now
<humphreybc> nisshh: ya
<humphreybc> sent
<nisshh> anyone seen clash of the titans yet?
<daker> oki
<nisshh> IMDB have it a 6.2
<humphreybc> daker: feel free to try and make a nicer Planet Ubuntu Manual icon, my one is a bit crap
<humphreybc> nisshh: looks like crap, tbh
<humphreybc> oh wait
<humphreybc> is that the one about South Africa?
<nisshh> humphreybc: saw your awesome vids on your youtube channel! :)
<humphreybc> (there's one coming out that's all Troy/300 like)
<dutchie> no, that's invictus
<dutchie> clash of the titans is the greeky one
<humphreybc> oh ok
<humphreybc> so yeah, that one looks shit :)
<nisshh> apparently its all spec effects
<humphreybc> nisshh: http://test.ubuntu-manual.org/about
<nisshh> like TF2
<humphreybc> it'll get to the stage where they'll just render the entire movie and not even need actors
<dutchie> you've got those already
<nisshh> humphreybc: i think thats called an animated movie ;)
<humphreybc> yeah, but it'll be so good they'll just release it as a real movie (but it's actually animated)
<humphreybc> so they'll trick you
<dutchie> don't think they could do that
<humphreybc> thorwi's off to do something better with his Sunday
<nisshh> hehe
<nisshh> anyone have a good movie suggestion?
<nisshh> im really bored
<humphreybc> I just watched 21, it was pretty good
<humphreybc> capture screenshots?
<humphreybc> while listening to music?
<humphreybc> we still need quite a few
<humphreybc> http://screenshots.ubuntu-manual.org/
<dutchie> I have far too much work to do to watch a film
<dutchie> :(
<humphreybc> you could clean up all the ones that are 95% +
<dutchie> should probably have done some over the last 3 weeks
<nisshh> humphreybc: thing is though, i have the latest lucid updates
<nisshh> so my buttons and icons are all different
<humphreybc> latest lucid updates are good
<nisshh> ok, i might grab some screenshots then
<nisshh> wow, we still need alot though dont we
<humphreybc> yeah, target the languages that are almost finished
<ubuntujenkins> yep, I am on top of the approving though, I do them as they come in now.
<humphreybc> like, with one or two missing
 * humphreybc might do some screenshots tomorrow
<ubuntujenkins> nisshh: you will need to install language packs, if you want i have a script to install all the ones we need
<nisshh> ubuntujenkins: how big are the language packs?
<nisshh> itll porb take all night to download them on my connection
<humphreybc> they're not that big
<humphreybc> you could grab the QS live DVD
<humphreybc> might be easier
<nisshh> how big is the livedvd?
<ubuntujenkins> not sure to be honest, the spanish one is big, the live dvd is 720mb
<ubuntujenkins> ish
<dutchie> couldn't you take those 20 meg off and get it down to a CD?
 * nisshh groans
<daker> nisshh, a good movie : Into the Wild
<nisshh> itll take nearly 2 hours to download the live dvd
<ubuntujenkins> but you would be downloading stuff you don't need by getting the cd. just install the laguages you want to do screenshots ofr
<humphreybc> Where the wild things are nisshh?
<nisshh> daker: cheers im looking it up now
<humphreybc> nisshh: how are you planning on watching the movie?
<ubuntujenkins> dutchie: we can't everything possible is missing from the cd, the langauge packs keep getting bigger
<nisshh> humphreybc: torrent
<dutchie> ubuntujenkins: :(
<humphreybc> nisshh: lol
<humphreybc> well won't that take a while?
<nisshh> yea, same amount of time as the livedvd
<humphreybc> hahaha
<nisshh> but thats not the point
<humphreybc> watch some TV or play cards
<nisshh> meh nothing good on tv atm
<nisshh> and im home alone :)
<nisshh> poor me
<humphreybc> what time is it?
<ubuntujenkins> 11.49 utc
<humphreybc> do'h, i mean local time :P
<ubuntujenkins> 12.49 gmt
<dutchie> bst actually
<humphreybc> gmt = utc, right?
<ubuntujenkins> whats the differnce between gmt and bst dutchie ?
<dutchie> to within a few tenths of a second
<dutchie> bst is british summer time
<ubuntujenkins> i see
<dutchie> "strictly UTC is an atomic time scale which only approximates GMT with a tolerance of 0.9 second."
<nisshh> dutchie you smartass :)
<dutchie> :)
<nisshh> into the wild looks kickass
<daker> :)
<daker> a very good movie
<nisshh> i watched fantastic mr fox the other day
<nisshh> was good too
<nisshh> humphreybc: i could start off by doing the au and en screenshots
<nisshh> wont have to download much for those
<nisshh> downloading into the wild now
<nisshh> 1:50 to go
<humphreybc> nisshh: sounds good, go for it
<nisshh> humphreybc: cool, just installed quickshot now
<nisshh> humphreybc: oh yea, my desktop doesnt look like the default
<nisshh> i have docky and different panels
<nisshh> humphreybc: nvm i think itll be ok
<nisshh> gotta logout taking some screenies
<nisshh> ubuntujenkins: i need some more language packs for quickshot, you said you had a script?
<ubuntujenkins> yes let me paste bin it
<nisshh> right
<nisshh> i inly want certian ones though
<nisshh> omg my spelling is crap right now
<nisshh> humphreybc: so i was right about that contributors video! hehe
<ubuntujenkins> well just do apt-get install language-pack-gnome-<shortlanguagecode>
<nisshh> ubuntujenkins: ok thanks
<ubuntujenkins> short codes are here http://builds.ubuntu-manual.org/
<nisshh> doing el and en
<nisshh> ok trying again
<nisshh> brb
<nisshh> ok, i dont actually know how to change language in ubuntu...
<nisshh> silly question i know
<dutchie> system -> admin -> language support
<nisshh> dutchie: yea i got that far
<nisshh> now what?
<dutchie> doesn't quickshot do all that anyway?
<nisshh> nope
<dutchie> but it looks like you drag your preferred one up to the top
<nisshh> hmmmm
<dutchie> then maybe log out and in again
<nisshh> ubuntujenkins: can you walk me through taking a screenshot with quickshot in another language?
<ubuntujenkins> nisshh log out, click the quickshot user in the bottom left you can choose the language
<nisshh> ah got it
<nisshh> then quickshot should automatically use that language?
<ubuntujenkins> the program will be in english, but the rest of the desktop will be in that language and all othe programs
<nisshh> ah ok well thats good, i only know english
<nisshh> ok, third times the charm!
<nisshh> ubuntujenkins: took a screenie and uploaded it then had to hard reset because of a bug in quickshot
<ubuntujenkins> whats the bug?
<nisshh> as soon as i acidentally locked the screen and went to re enter my password my computer did a MASSIVE shit and i was forced into doing a hard reset
<ubuntujenkins> right, not sure how quickshot could have a caused that
<nisshh> but apart from that quickshot is awesome
<nisshh> i figured it must have been quickshot since my comp has never done that before
<ubuntujenkins> I would be interested if you can create the bug again. what graphics are you using? there are afew x bugs around in lucid still
<nisshh> intel inbuilt graphics
<nisshh> and i just locked and unlocked my screen just then with no difficulty
<ubuntujenkins> hmm, what did you see when your computer went mad?
<ubuntujenkins> brb
<nisshh> well i seemed to hang between locking and unlocking
<nisshh> it sorry
<nisshh> then when i restarted my comp it hung at boot and the quickshot dialog flickered on and off the screen indefinitely and thats when i did the hard reset
<nisshh> was really strange
<ubuntujenkins> inerstingly my latop went to sleep when i unlocked it but i can't think how quickshot could have acaused
<ubuntujenkins>  it
<nisshh> neither can i
<nisshh> anyway have you seen the screenshot i uploaded?
<ubuntujenkins> yep looks good to me
<nisshh> cool
<daker> humphreybc, !!!
<daker> ubuntujenkins, give a look http://test.ubuntu-manual.org/
<ubuntujenkins> daker: the new icons don't look to bad
<thorwil> humphreybc: so it will be just the 3 links, facebook, twitter and um-planet on the side?
<thorwil> daker: ^
<daker> probably
<daker> we can add more if you want
<thorwil> daker: the facebook and twitter buttons are official versions?
<daker> ask humphreybc
<thorwil> daker: i still wouldn't know how to create good icons for anything else, but i happen to have an idea for Planet worth trying
<ubuntujenkins> daker: the buttons look a bit out on their own on a large screen http://imagebin.org/93508
<daker> haha
<thorwil> they should stay close to the right edge of the "page"
<nisshh> hey, can someone help me with gwibber?
<ubuntujenkins> nisshh: fire away and i tiwll try
<ubuntujenkins> *will
<nisshh> i cant seem to post stuff to identi.ca
<nisshh> iv registered on the site
<nisshh> and added my account to gwibber
<nisshh> and recieved a message from the welcome bot
<nisshh> so a ssume everything is working ok
<nisshh> assume*
<dutchie> is it set up to be sending?
<nisshh> yes
<dutchie> any useful output on the terminal?
<nisshh> on the terminal??
<nisshh> im running it from the menu
<dutchie> run gwibber in a terminal to see the output
<ubuntujenkins> sorry i don't use identica, try running from the termial an see what it says
<nisshh> ok hang on
<nisshh> nope nothing useful from the terminal
<dutchie> hrm
<nisshh> does anyone else here use gwibber with identica?
<humphreybc> daker: the icons move when you resize the window
<humphreybc> they should be fixed position relative to the border of the content box
<daker> i see :)
<humphreybc> rather than relative to the window frame :)
<humphreybc> other than that, looking good!
 * humphreybc is off to bed now after watching 4 episodes of Firefly, good show
<nisshh> i think i found the problem
<humphreybc> night all
<nisshh> i havent vaidated my email yet lol
<nisshh> night humphreybc
<daker> ubuntujenkins, !!
<daker> try now
<ubuntujenkins> thats better daker but if the window is smaller than the width of the white section you don't see them
<ubuntujenkins> not sure you did before
<daker> i can't change resolution in karmic (the hight's one is 1024x768 )
<ubuntujenkins> http://imagebin.org/93515 the window is the width of the white bit but there is no sideways scroll bar so i don't see the buttons
<thorwil> daker: which of the images in team-images/banner is in use?
<daker> i don't have the main branch right now
<daker> i am working on lp:ubuntu-manual-website
<daker> so i can't give an answer
<daker> ubuntujenkins, which resolution are you using
<daker> ?
<thorwil> daker: i need to replace all occurrences of the logo, as one of the stripes has the wrong color
<daker> just do it and i'll update the one in the website
<ubuntujenkins> i wasn't using a particular resolution i was just playing with the window width, not sure it matters too much
<thorwil> daker: i removed the banner folder, as those were basically duplicates. the good stuff is in team-images/logos now (rev 796)
<manualbot> http://bazaar.launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual/revision/796 | http://bazaar.launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual -r 796
<daker> oki
 * thorwil still can't believe he managed to overlook such a glaring mistake
<daker> .g ubuntu-manual
<DAker-BOTO> daker: http://ubuntuguide.org/
<daker> fu***
<daker> DAker-BOTO: "shut up"?
<DAker-BOTO> daker: Language guessing failed, so try suggesting one!
<daker> .wik RMS
<DAker-BOTO> "Rate-monotonic scheduling, a scheduling technique in operating systems" - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RMS
<daker> Fu**** Bot
<daker> .t [gmt]
<DAker-BOTO> daker: Sorry, I don't know about the '[gmt]' timezone.
<daker> .t [+1]
<DAker-BOTO> daker: Sorry, I don't know about the '[+1]' timezone.
<daker> .part #ubuntu-manual
<ubuntujenkins> daker: what is the Daker--BOTO?
<daker> my Bot
<daker> a python bot
<ubuntujenkins> what do you have a personal bot for?
<daker> just i want to try this http://inamidst.com/phenny/
<ubuntujenkins> interesting fair enough
<daker> .tock
<DAker-BOTO> "Sun, 18 Apr 2010 15:58:57 GMT" - tycho.usno.navy.mil
<daker> .val http://test.ubuntu-manual.org
<DAker-BOTO> daker: http://test.ubuntu-manual.org is Invalid (63 errors)
<dutchie> that makes 5 bots in here :)
<daker> 5 o.O
<thorwil> dutchie: that's what you think ;)
<dutchie> heh
<daker> i see just 3 + DAker-BOTO
<dutchie> DAker-BOTO, manualbot, MootBot, ubuntujenkins
<dutchie> err, ubuntulog
<daker> hhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
 * dutchie can't count
<ubuntujenkins> know command
<ubuntujenkins> *unknown
 * ubuntujenkins failed
<daker> .tell ubuntujenkins you are a BOT
<daker> tell ubuntujenkins you are a BOT
<daker> :p
<daker> DAker-BOTO,  doesn't want to obey
<daker> .dict cool
<DAker-BOTO> cool -  1. fairly cold, 2. staying calm
<daker> pls someone should update the website's pot file pls
<daker> i don't have the main branch
<daker> the new file is located in lp:ubuntu-manual-website/ => main/includes/languages/ubu_man_website_translations.pot
<daker> and update the old one in ubuntu manual branch
<daker> website/daker-test/includes/languages/ubu_man_website_translations.pot
<thorwil> daker: what do you think of http://www.foopics.com/showfull/7e18bbf2309b4420744137273c901001 ?
<daker> icon of UM planet ?
<thorwil> yes
<daker> great
<thorwil> cool :)
<daker> thorwil, the icons are 32x32
<thorwil> daker: this one is too, i just added background for context
<daker> oki
<thorwil> daker: should i add it to the main branch somewhere?
<daker> mail it to me
<daker> adnane@ubuntu-manual.org
<thorwil> ok
<thorwil> done
<daker> great
<daker> dutchie, manualbot is your Bot ?
<dutchie> yes
<ubuntujenkins> hello manualbot
<ubuntujenkins> does manualbot work?
<ubuntujenkins> !hello
<manualbot> Hi! Welcome to #ubuntu-manual! Enjoy your stay!
<ubuntujenkins> !hello | manualbot
<manualbot> manualbot: please see above
<ubuntujenkins> !commands | manualbot
<manualbot> manualbot: The linux terminal or command-line interface is very powerful. Open a terminal via Applications -> Accessories -> Terminal (Gnome) or K-menu -> System -> Konsole (KDE).  Guide: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UsingTheTerminal
<ubuntujenkins> !lucid
<manualbot> Lucid Lynx is the codename for Ubuntu 10.04, due April 2010 - Lucid is NOT released and is NOT stable - Discussion and support in #ubuntu+1
<ubuntujenkins> @ manualbot
<manualbot> ubuntujenkins: Error: "manualbot" is not a valid command.
<ubuntujenkins> yey it moaned :-)
<ubuntujenkins> !quickshot
<manualbot> Factoid 'quickshot' not found
<ubuntujenkins> !manual
<manualbot> Factoid 'manual' not found
<daker> hhhhhhhhhh
<ubuntujenkins> !spam
<manualbot> Factoid 'spam' not found
<daker> !fu***
<manualbot> Factoid 'fu***' not found
<daker> hhhhhhhh stupid bot
 * ubuntujenkins to day is anoy the bot day :-)
<daker> if you could add a support to ubuntu-manual-website too
<daker> good news
<daker> our pageranks is 4
<daker> http://www.pagerank.fr/rapport-indexation.fr.html?uri=ubuntu-manual.org/
<daker> in less than 3 weeks i think
<daker> hey ubuntujenkins
<daker> do you know that game Machinarium.net ?
<daker> godbyk, !!!!
<godbyk> Hey, daker. What's up?
<godbyk> I'm just reading the logs here.
<daker> <daker> the new file is located in lp:ubuntu-manual-website/ => main/includes/languages/ubu_man_website_translations.pot
<daker> <daker> and update the old one in ubuntu manual branch
<daker> <daker> website/daker-test/includes/languages/ubu_man_website_translations.pot
<godbyk> Right.
<godbyk> What'd I'd prefer to do is keep the pot in the website branch, if possible. (So we're not having to copy files back and forth all the time.) And then we can ditch the website stuff in the manual branch soon.
<dutchie> +1
<daker> the problem is if i keep the pot in the website branch, we have to retranslate all the strings
<dutchie> not if you move the po files over too
<dutchie> you can tell launchpad to reimport them
<daker> dutchie, how ?
<dutchie> https://translations.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual-website/trunk/+translations-settings # switch it to "Import template and translation files"
<godbyk> daker: What'd I'd prefer to do is keep the pot in the website branch, if possible. (So we're not having to copy files back and forth all the time.) And then we can ditch the website stuff in the manual branch soon.
<godbyk> (frakking internet connection!)
<daker> i am trying right now dutchie
<daker> godbyk, oki
<godbyk> What'd I miss while I was offline? :)
<dutchie> 20:14:20 < daker> the problem is if i keep the pot in the website branch, we have to retranslate all the strings
<dutchie> 20:14:59 < dutchie> not if you move the po files over too
<dutchie> 20:15:06 < dutchie> you can tell launchpad to reimport them
<dutchie> 20:15:28 < daker> dutchie, how ?
<dutchie> 20:16:45 < dutchie> https://translations.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual-website/trunk/+translations-settings # switch it to  "Import template and translation files"
<godbyk> also, launchpad will pull the existing translations over automatically
<godbyk> it shares strings across projects
<daker> the process will takes a few minutes ?
<daker> https://translations.launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual-website
<godbyk> daker: I set the permissions, translator group, and focused branch for you.
<godbyk> daker: You may also want to email the ubuntu-manual mailing list to let the translators know that they should pop into https://translations.launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual-website to translate the website stuff.
<godbyk> If they've translated the same string before, it should appear as a suggestion automatically.
<daker> yes i'll do
<daker> that's all ?
<godbyk> daker: I think so, but dutchie's the translation expert. :)
<dutchie> yeah, that's all
<daker> oki
<godbyk> [FML]
<dutchie> heh
<godbyk> I never realized how much time I spend on the Internet until it goes down. :)
<godbyk> on the plus side, I've been making a huge dent in my 'to read' pile of books.
<ubuntujenkins> back at the computer just in time for the meeting,
<ubuntujenkins> daker: I have not heard of that game
<ubuntujenkins> Quickshot meeting in #ubuntu-meeting in two minutes
<daker> you should
<daker> brb
<komsas> Hello, I'm thinking that it would be nice if tranlators teams have space to write contacts and other related stuff with theirnational team http://test.ubuntu-manual.org/getinvolved/translators. What do you think about this idea? It can be like string in web transaltions.
<godbyk> komsas: Can you give me an example?  (We're definitely looking for ways to improve the translation process!)
<komsas> mm.. there can be links, like our wiki page (https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-manual/lithuanian), contacts (Irc, email), team coordinator contacts and so on.
<godbyk> komsas: Oh, I see.  So have a bit of info for each person/team that's helping to translate the manual?
<komsas> godbyk: yee, some info about translators team and how to contact with them, because if you want to translate and you are new in translations (like Ubuntu), before translating you must find more info, like useful dictionaries, latex tags, and other rules.
<godbyk> komsas: I agree.  I'll see what we can come up with.
<godbyk> komsas: Would you jot down this idea on the pad here? http://pad.ubuntu-uk.org/UMPtranslations
<godbyk> We're making a list. :)
<komsas> godbyk: I can try :)
<godbyk> thanks!
<komsas> no problem
<godbyk> feel free to note anything else we should look into.
<godbyk> right now the translation stuff is harder than I want it to be. :)
<komsas> godbyk: yee, our team now in deep deep depression, we can't be in time, but in other 1-2 month we will finish it.
<godbyk> komsas: I understand.  Have you see the schedule for the next release?  We tried to allocate more time for the translators.
<komsas> godbyk: no, I didn't see it.
<godbyk> Let me find it for you.
<komsas> yee, in this release we had to little time, when our team little compared with spain, germany and so on.
<godbyk> komsas: http://pad.ubuntu-uk.org/MaiZTb4Fjd
<dutchie> komsas: don't worry, you can carry on translating and the lt version will just come out a bit later
<godbyk> komsas: So the translators should have a full two months to work on translating the Maverick edition.
<komsas> nice
<godbyk> Right. We'll be releasing the translated versions as they're finished.
<komsas> godbyk: I did note in the pad. I'm going take bed, bye
<godbyk> Okay, thanks. G'night, komsas.
<ubuntujenkins> i am off night all o/
#ubuntu-manual 2011-04-11
<issyl0> 15
<issyl0> Argh.
 * issyl0 really should look at what she's typing...
<issyl0> Or get a new / key.
<Andre_Gondim> godbyk, may you check if every screenshot is ok
<Andre_Gondim> godbyk, may you check the screenshots?
<Andre_Gondim> godbyk, I think it's complete the screenshot now, may you confirm it ?
<godbyk> Andre_Gondim: Let me look.
<godbyk> Andre_Gondim: It looks like all the screenshots are on the server now.
<godbyk> I'll have someone check them and approve them.
<godbyk> Then we'll add them to the bzr repository so they can appear in the manual.
<Andre_Gondim> that's so nice, may you thing when is it?
<godbyk> I'm not sure how long it will take.  I have to track someone down who knows how to approve the screenshots.
<c7p> hey Andre_Gondim are you a translated edition editor ?
<Andre_Gondim> c7p, no, I am just a translator from Brazilian Portuguese Team
<c7p> ah ok
<c7p> Andre_Gondim btw, why don't you become a Brazilian Editor ? there is nobody on this role and it is essential  for publishing a translated manual
<Andre_Gondim> c7p, how may I do this?
<c7p> Andre_Gondim:  yeah of course, why not  ? probably you are the most suitable person for this
#ubuntu-manual 2011-04-12
<Andre_Gondim> godbyk, I try to do make ubuntu-manual-pt_BR.pdf and see many errors, may you help me?
<Andre_Gondim> http://ubuntuone.com/p/mAY/
<Andre_Gondim> sorry it's ok godbyk
<Andre_Gondim> godbyk, who may release the lucid-e1 screenshots that I took it
<godbyk> Andre_Gondim: I've emailed ubuntujenkins to find out.
<Andre_Gondim> godbyk, ok, I will ask to my team to work on lucid-e2
<jenkins1> Andre_Gondim: all the screenshots you need can be found in lp:~ubuntu-manual/ubuntu-manual-screenshots/pt_BR
<jenkins1> all 48 are there mow
<jenkins1> *now
#ubuntu-manual 2011-04-13
<issyl0> Morning all.
 * issyl0 just updated a load of prefs-hardware/usb.tex in the main ubuntu-manual branch.
<daker> morning issyl0
<issyl0> Morning daker.
<daker> ou plutÃ´t BONJOUR!!
<issyl0> daker: Si tu veux.
<issyl0> :-)
<daker> ã
<zleap> hi, will there be a 11.04 ubuntu manual ?
<Infosoft> Most likely, yes
<zleap> cool, as that would be useful to help people move from 10.04/10.04 to 11.04  + unity
#ubuntu-manual 2011-04-15
<c7p> hey daker_
#ubuntu-manual 2011-04-16
<thorwil> godbyk: drive-by increasing sanity level on ayatana list, eh? ;)
<godbyk> thorwil: My feeble attempt, yes. :-)
<godbyk> I figured a quick response would generate a bashful reply, 'Oh, well, nevermind then.'  Sadly, that's not what happened.
<godbyk> Hey, rickfosb. How's it going?
<godbyk> Hey, c7p.
<c7p> hi godbyk
<rickfosb> Doing great, godbyk!
<c7p> hello all :)
<rickfosb> And you?
<godbyk> Not too bad.
<issyl0> Hey!
<rickfosb> Hi c7p.   Meeting not for another hour, right?
<piratemurray> another hour yup
<piratemurray> i thought it was now.
<piratemurray> silly british summer time!!
<issyl0> I thought it was now too.
<issyl0> But then I realised: 20:00 UTC.
<issyl0> Gargh.
<issyl0> Oh well.  :-)
<issyl0> I got here in time as well.  :P
* godbyk changed the topic of #ubuntu-manual to: Ubuntu Manual Project discussion | Meeting Agenda: http://pad.ubuntu-uk.org/UMP-April-Meeting | Style Guide: http://files.ubuntu-manual.org/style-guide.pdf | Website: http://ubuntu-manual.org | Launchpad: https://launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual | IRC logs: http://irclogs.ubuntu.com
<godbyk> That wasn't as tricky as I thought it might be. :)
<CrustyBarnacle> msg godbyk Question about the use of "\acronym". Not in style guide, but I see it all over the Installation chapter.
<godbyk> CrustyBarnacle: It's not in the style guide? Hmm.. I'll have to fix that.
<godbyk> CrustyBarnacle: What's your question?
<CrustyBarnacle> msg godbyk Not in Index, and search using find does not bring up any results for it.
<CrustyBarnacle> msg godbyk Using this guide: http://files.ubuntu-manual.org/style-guide.pdf
<rickfosb> godbyk, CrustyBarnacle, we probably need to add some verbiage on use (when to and not to use the tag)
<CrustyBarnacle> msg godbyk Yes. Should it be used on first occurrence of acronym only?
<rickfosb> sounds reasonable
<godbyk> CrustyBarnacle: \acronym is a formatting command.  It formats the text in small caps.
<godbyk> CrustyBarnacle: So it should be used each time the acronym is used.
<monfort> Hello everyone. I'm new in the whole "ubuntu-manual" think, and as I can see it looks like I'm gonna have to learn about LateX...
<CrustyBarnacle> msg godbyk OK
<monfort> I thought I could easily help as a chapter author but it's seems that it's gonna be more complicated than that.
<debayan> We are supposed to start in a short while, right?
<monfort> it seems*
<godbyk> monfort: Welcome!  Don't worry. The parts of LaTeX used by authors and editors is fairly easy to learn.  You can find most of the information you'll need in the style guide at <http://files.ubuntu-manual.org/style-guide.pdf>.  Feel free to ask me any questions you have along the way, too.
<godbyk> debayan: Yes, we'll start the meeting in 10-15 minutes.
<rickfosb> monfort, its not that bad.
<debayan> cool godbyk
<godbyk> monfort: Also, there are others who are willing to help with the formatting if you just want to focus on writing the content or proofreading.
<rickfosb> monfort, if you supply the typing, the editors can help with the format
<monfort> Well actually I thought it was all about using Libreoffice and Scribus ...
<monfort> And does learning LateX involves learning HTML ?
<CrustyBarnacle> msg monfort http://ubuntu-manual.org/getinvolved/authors
<shrini> hei guys
<shrini> how are you doing all?
<issyl0> Hey.
<shrini> hai issyl0
<monfort> shrini, really great thanks !
<shrini> monfort: :-)
<shrini> happy to see you all again
<monfort> CrustyBarnacle : Oh great I never saw that webpage ! :D
<issyl0> monfort: No, learning LaTeX does not involve learning HTML.  LaTeX is great - I'd recommend just looking through the files in the existing bzr branches to get a general idea, and of course the style guide.
<godbyk> Hey, issyl0. Thanks for your recent editing help on the maverick edition.
<debayan> issyl0: I hope this session is being logged.
<monfort> Okay I will do it. I won't participate to the meeting today, because I first need to learn on this. I'm gonna start tomorrow and will let you all know about my progress. ( I have to start from the basics ... ).
<issyl0> godbyk: No worries - always happy to help - seeking to get more involved actually, hence my application for an editor position.
<c7p> have in mind i will update the content of get involved pages today or tomorrow, i hope the new content will help you
<monfort> Just one question : Who should I keep the email of ?
<CrustyBarnacle> I recently started on LaTex. Not as steep a learning curve as it seems to start contributing.
<c7p> monfort: you can send mails to mailing list (if i understood the question right)
<monfort> Is it the same kind of mailing list that uses dizans of e-mails per day ?
<monfort> Seriously sometimes I can't read all of my mails from newsletters and stuff so with a mailing list ... :/
<rickfosb> monfort; to date, not that many emails from this list.
<godbyk> monfort: The Ubuntu Manual mailing list is fairly low-traffic at the moment.
<monfort> Okay then I'll subscribe !
<issyl0> godbyk: I enjoy contributing.  :-)
<hannie> Hello to all of you
<issyl0> Hi hannie.
<monfort> I have to go now. Really happy to know you all guys and hope to be able to help as soon as I can.
<godbyk> Thanks for coming, monfort.
<monfort> I'm really happy to start contributing and feel part of something great !
<monfort> By !
<issyl0> (Ah, the satisfaction of making people happy.  :-))
<c7p> hehe yeah, just a motivate to keep contributing
<shrini> :-)
<piratemurray> hi guys!
<issyl0> c7p: Yeah.
<issyl0> (Hrm.  I'll be back in 2 mins.  But, o/)
<c7p> meeting in 5 mins, raise your hands guys !
<piratemurray> sounds good
<issyl0> o/ before I disappear for two minutes...
<hannie> ok, 5 min
<rickfosb> ok 5
<CrustyBarnacle> OK 5
<debayan> I hope I can contribute properly.
<issyl0> Right, hi.
<c7p> debayan: don't worry the team will help you to do it
<godbyk> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 15:09. The chair is godbyk.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<godbyk> Hello, everyone. Thanks for coming.  Before we get started, can we have a quick roll call?  Just a quick 'hello' from anyone who's attending the meeting, please.
<issyl0> Hello!
<CrustyBarnacle> Howdy
<piratemurray> hia
<shrini> Hello friends
<rickfosb> hello
<debayan> Hello everyone. Great to be here :)
<godbyk> Thanks!
<godbyk> [TOPIC] Getting Started with 10.10: What still needs to be done?
<MootBot> New Topic:  Getting Started with 10.10: What still needs to be done?
<godbyk> I think the Maverick edition of the manual should be nearly ready for publication.
<godbyk> I know that we still need to take some screenshots.
<godbyk> What else needs to be done for this edition?
<hannie> What's the use of publishing Maverick when Natty is coming so soon?
<issyl0> I've done a fair bit of editing over the last few days - grammar/spelling/LaTeX/whatever.
<shrini> I submitted some screenshots
<shrini> do anyone get them?
<shrini> are they useful?
<CrustyBarnacle> Reviewing Installation
<godbyk> hannie: Well, since it's practically finished already, there's no harm in it.  Also, it will serve as the base for the Natty edition.
<hannie> ok
<issyl0> hannie: On the other side, what's the point of wasting a manual we've written?
<godbyk> shrini: Ah, I see that most of the screenshots have been submitted.  Great!
<godbyk> It looks like there are just a handful of them missing still.
<shrini> godbyk: oh. thanks
<shrini> i thought that they were not sent
<shrini> to server
<godbyk> CrustyBarnacle: Would you like to look over the installation chapter of the maverick edition for us?
<godbyk> It looks like we're just missing one screenshot and one is pending approval.
<CrustyBarnacle> godbyk Yes
<c7p> there is a problem with that screenshot, quickshot must have a bug
<godbyk> c7p: The pending screenshot or the missing screenshot?  Can we take it manually?
<c7p> maybe we can capture it manually and cut the image with gimp to make it proper for the manual
<godbyk> c7p: Okay. I'll look into that.
<CrustyBarnacle> c7p: Shutter works great for taking and editing screenshots :-)
<godbyk> Are there any other to do items for the maverick edition that anyone can think of?
<c7p> CrustyBarnacle: i love gimp :) but maybe i should try Shutter also
<hannie> I like shutter too
<hannie> quick and easy
<rickfosb> godbyk, when we are ready to 'publish', is it linked to the manual page (simple as that?)?
<godbyk> rickfosb: When we 'publish' the manual, we upload the PDFs to the website and also publish it to lulu.com (where you can purchase a printed copy).
<rickfosb> thanks
<godbyk> All right, let's move on to the Natty edition.
<godbyk> [TOPIC] Natty edition authors and chapter editors
<MootBot> New Topic:  Natty edition authors and chapter editors
<piratemurray> woohoo!
<CrustyBarnacle> msg rickfosb what is the publication date for Maverick? What's our deadline to get to translators?
<issyl0> Cool.
<shrini> The GUI is so different in natty
<godbyk> Earlier this week, we asked for volunteers to write and edit the chapters of the Natty edition of the manual.
<shrini> have to write from scratch on the GUI part
<godbyk> We also contacted the previous authors and editors to see if they'd like to reprise their roles.
<debayan> I have some experience with unity.
<hannie> https://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?hl=en&key=0Ar0Z6vOO38EydERxaWhGTkU2NTVDU2pxYXNHWWR1MlE&hl=en&gid=0
<godbyk> The list of assigned authors and editors is shown here: http://bit.ly/gG59j7
<rickfosb> CrustyBarnacle, We can probably try to set a date today,
<c7p> this is the list of assigned chapters to authors
<godbyk> c7p: We should ask the new volunteers if they have any preference as to which chapter they're assigned.
<c7p> there are like 8 authors and editors that aren't in this list because they haven't a chapter so don't worry
<hannie> who assigns them?
<c7p> of course
<shrini> :-)
<c7p> rickfosb will assign you the chapter
<rickfosb> hannie, I'll work with them and assign
<rickfosb> c7p, yes
<issyl0> Cool.
<shrini> great
<godbyk> If anyone else would like to volunteer to be an author or editor, please feel free.
<c7p> but he is new so as most of you so don't make him anxious :)
<godbyk> We'll take all the help we can get. :)
<rickfosb> I'll reach out via email over the next day or so and start updating the list.
<CrustyBarnacle> godbyk: Indeed
<CrustyBarnacle> should we advertise for hel at LUGs?
<issyl0> What's the ratio of editors to authors to chapters to applicants for roles?
<piratemurray> can i volunteer for the prologue?
<godbyk> CrustyBarnacle: Yes, feel free to advertise and help find some volunteers.
<issyl0> Who controls that Google Doc?
<rickfosb> piratemurry, -> prologue
<rickfosb> looks good
<c7p> issyl0:
<c7p> issyl0: i do
<hannie> I have sent an email this morning
<rickfosb> c7p, do you have nick to email for all of us?
<issyl0> c7p: Ah, right.
<debayan_> Hey I would like to take up the Ubuntu Desktop chapter.
<rickfosb> piratemurry, was the Author, or Editor?
<piratemurray> what do you need?
<piratemurray> author would be first preference but i'm not fussed
<piratemurray> happy to help in any way
<rickfosb> piratemurray; author or editor for prologue?
<hannie> who reads jobs@ubuntu-manual.org?
<shrini> i like to be author of working with ubuntu
<rickfosb> piratemurray; thanks
<issyl0> 55
<issyl0> Argh.
<godbyk> hannie: A few of us do: me, c7p, cwoollard, rickfosb.
<piratemurray> rickfosb: so that is author then?
<piratemurray> excellent
<rickfosb> piratemurray:  is Author for Prologue
<c7p> rickfosb: no i don't know the nicknames, PM me authors and editors
<CrustyBarnacle> msg c7p mario@petrielabs.com
<godbyk> CrustyBarnacle: Be sure to put a / in front of 'msg' otherwise it still sends it to the channel. :)
<shrini> Shall I take "Working with Ubuntu" ?
<issyl0> CrustyBarnacle: You're missing a / before "msg". :-)
<debayan_> :)
<rickfosb> c7p; thanks.  Rest of you, I'll use the 'list' to reach out as needed.
<CrustyBarnacle> I see...
<godbyk> Okay, shall we move on to the next agenda item?
<CrustyBarnacle> let's go...
<godbyk> [TOPIC] Screenshot size for Natty edition
<MootBot> New Topic:  Screenshot size for Natty edition
<godbyk> c7p: Do you know what this topic is about?
<c7p> i didn't write it :)
<godbyk> In the agenda item, it says that the screenshots in the 10.04 edition of the manual are too large and that it's ahrd to read the text and look at the pictures at the same time.
<CrustyBarnacle> my vote is for the higher resolution, but sized down, so we get readable screenshots.
<godbyk> They suggest using 800Ã600 resolution screenshots instead of the current 1024Ã768.
<shrini> 800x600 would be nice
<godbyk> I remember doing some tests early on when we started taking screenshots.
<godbyk> One of the problems with reducing the screenshot resolution is that the screenshot start to look very pixelated and muddy at lower resolutions.
<hannie> Is the quality fo 800x600 good enough?
<rickfosb> I didn't write it either, but if you flip through the manual, some of the shots are full page, some rest within the main column... seems a mis match
<hannie> *of
<godbyk> rickfosb: Here's how the screenshot size in the manual is determined:
<godbyk> We take all the screenshots at the same resolution (currently 1024Ã768).
<godbyk> The widest screenshot (currently we use the full desktop screenshot for this) is scaled to fit in the margins of the manual (across the main text block and the sidenotes area).
<godbyk> All of the screenshots are scaled using this same scaling factor.
<godbyk> If the scaled screenshot is narrow enough to fit in the main text block, then it's centered there and the caption appears adjacent in the sidenotes area.
<rickfosb> godbyk; so, menu drop downs, etc., will be a small centered shot.. and desktop or full application will be large;  makes sense
<godbyk> If the scaled screenshot is too wide for the main text block, then it will be centered across the full page (main text block + sidenotes area) and the caption will appear above or below the screenshot.
<CrustyBarnacle> what if the max width was only main text block?
<godbyk> CrustyBarnacle: We could scale all the screenshots so that the max width is only the main text block, but then the text in the screenshots is difficult to read (as it's so small).
<rickfosb> So, back to question, do we have a sample of 800 vs 1024 to compare?
<CrustyBarnacle> Screenshots are for reference only, not for providing actual instructions. So...
<godbyk> rickfosb: In the lucid-e1 repository, there is a lucid-screens/ dir that has samples taken at different resolutions.
<rickfosb> I'll look
<godbyk> CrustyBarnacle: While the screenshots aren't there to provide instructions themselves, it is frustrating to not be able to read the text in the screenshot.
<issyl0> godbyk: Absolutely.
<issyl0> (Re: the frustration.)
<godbyk> The samples in that directory are taken at 1024Ã768, 1280Ã800, and 800Ã600.
<CrustyBarnacle> godbyk: I see...
<godbyk> Having said all that, we can certainly take another look at the problem and see if we can improve upon the previous (Lucid edition) solution.
<godbyk> Does anyone else have any questions or comments on this topic?
<hannie> can you give us a link to the examples?
<debayan_> I need to catch up with the instructions at http://ubuntu-manual.org/getinvolved/authors
<shrini> is there any weblink available for a quick check on resolutions?
<CrustyBarnacle> Can we agree to review the samples and discuss later (next meeting)?
<godbyk> hannie: http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-manual/ubuntu-manual/main/files/head:/lucid-screens/
<hannie> thank you
<godbyk> CrustyBarnacle: Sure.
<rickfosb> godbyk, I'll review as well, but unless there is a compelling need to change...,  I'm ok with the current process.
<godbyk> All right. Let's take a look at it and come back to our next meeting with our findings.
<godbyk> [TOPIC] Do we need to provide screenshots for non-Unity users?
<MootBot> New Topic:  Do we need to provide screenshots for non-Unity users?
<godbyk> My initial response to this question is, 'Sure, why not?'  But I'm not sure what concerns prompted the question.  Anyone else?
<shrini> what do you mean by non-unity users?
<issyl0> shrini: GNOME Classic?
<debayan_> We will need to this because Unity crashes a lot, and many users are likely to go back to Gnome
<rickfosb> I have one of the pc's that doen't support Unity.  So, I 'found' my way around the system menus;
<rickfosb> *doesn't
<godbyk> shrini: I think they're referring to the users who will see the GNOME desktop instead of Unity due to lack of sufficient hardware to run Unity.
<CrustyBarnacle> would the screenshots be side-by-side or in a separate section?
<debayan_> also the hardware support issue.
<issyl0> If we provide screenshots for non-Unity users, we should provide narritive within the manual about GNOME too - is this feasible/likely?
<issyl0> s/narritive/narrative/ sorry.
<godbyk> CrustyBarnacle: I think that the Unity and GNOME sections would be different.
<rickfosb> I'm thinking we just need to cover the 'general' navigation issues.
<c7p> well regarding unity, from what i know there will be unity 2d for old pc and unity 3d for new machines -independs to hardware-
<debayan_> I agree it should be different. Infact lets have separate manuals.
<shrini> Does the Gnome desktop comes in default ubuntu 11.04?
<piratemurray> do you not have to do some advanced tweaking to get GNOME back. i thought it was either Unity or Unity 2D (for the older computers)
<shrini> or we have to install it separaely?
<godbyk> debayan_: The problem with having two separate manuals it that you have to know beforehand which manual you need.
<hannie> the gnome part can be copied from Maverick I think
<rickfosb> godbyk; agree with one manual
<godbyk> debayan_: One of the use cases for our manual is that I should be able to hand a copy of the manual along with an Ubuntu CD to a friend and they should be able to install and use Ubuntu without pestering me with incessant questions. :)
<CrustyBarnacle> one manual...
<c7p> yeah one manual to avoid confusion
<debayan_> godbyk: hmm, good point.
<CrustyBarnacle> godbyk: Totally
<piratemurray> one manual to rule them all
<rickfosb> I suspect that the 2d section would not be 'large' when compared to the changes we'll need to make to 3d
<godbyk> Is the person who added this agenda item present?  If so, can you explain your concerns a bit more?
<rickfosb> godbyk; that was me.  So, the concern is, do we need to support non unity users?  I have a new netbook, but it doesn't do unity 'as is'
<debayan_> godbyk: I remember the openSuSE manual. It had Gnome and KDE parts separate.
<hannie> MrX
<c7p> first of all, we talk hypothetically ? are there tangible differences with unity 2d and unity 3d that will affect the manual ? first we should answer this -if anyone knows-
<godbyk> rickfosb: Ah, gotcha.
<debayan_> rickfosb: You are expected to use unity 2d then.
<rickfosb> godbyk; poulsbo drivers aren't ready, yet.
<godbyk> I think that we should provide at least enough information that they know what they're looking at and provide pointers to further documentation.
<rickfosb> especially, if our graphic shows some nice application icons... and the user doesn't see them
<issyl0> Yeah.
<godbyk> Personally, I'm not overly concerned about the size of the manual (as long as it doesn't get too out of hand), and would rather err on the side of including too much information than not enough.
<godbyk> It's very disconcerting when you're following along in a manual and you've encountered a situation that the manual doesn't cover.
<issyl0> godbyk: Definitely.
 * issyl0 agrees.
<CrustyBarnacle> godbyk: Would an increase change the cost to buy it?
<rickfosb> agree;  Since I have a netbook with the 2d issue,  I can help out with providing some shots.
<godbyk> So if we don't include information about GNOME classic (which may be reasonable if it's unlikely that most Natty users will encounter it), then we should at least make mention of it, explain why the reader may have encountered GNOME classic, and where they can go to get more information about it.
<godbyk> CrustyBarnacle: The price of the printed manuals is based on the page count. So the more pages in the manual, the more expensive it is.
<godbyk> rickfosb: Did this satisfactorily address your concerns for non-Unity users?
<rickfosb> yes!
<godbyk> Excellent!
<godbyk> [TOPIC] Documenting Ubuntu derivatives
<MootBot> New Topic:  Documenting Ubuntu derivatives
<shrini> what are they?
<godbyk> Ubuntu derivatives would be Kubuntu, Xubuntu, Edubuntu, etc.
<shrini> kubutu/edubuntu/xubuntu/liubuntu/mint
<issyl0> Ubuntu derivatives as in [X|K|Edu|...]buntu?
<debayan_> There are differences in unity 2d and 3d http://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2011/03/unity-2d-a-quick-look-at-the-latest-updates/
<debayan_> oops
<hannie> Like edubuntu, kubuntu, xubuntu?
<godbyk> Right now we mention those derivatives in the introduction, I think, but otherwise we don't talk about them at all.
<c7p> yeah i agree
<piratemurray> we make mention of them? not a whole chapter though..... few paragraphs
<godbyk> The question is, should we include more information about these derivatives in the manual?
<debayan_> I agree, and we mention links.
<shrini> I hope that little content is enough
<CrustyBarnacle> Mention + Links
<hannie> Yes, keep it short
<shrini> because explaining KDE needs a full book
<piratemurray> maybe some reasons why one would want to use the derivite
<CrustyBarnacle> Can we link to actual documentation for all derivatives?
<godbyk> My concern is that I wouldn't talk about them to much in the beginning because you're forcing a choice on the unsuspecting reader.
<piratemurray> such as "use Lubuntu if you want XYZ...."
<CrustyBarnacle> godbyk: good point
<godbyk> How should the reader decide if they'd prefer a different derivative if they're just getting started with Ubuntu proper?
<debayan_> We shoud mention it at the end.
<debayan_> Advanced Topics.
<piratemurray> that's how i discovered the derivites when i started using ubuntu
<shrini> That would be fine
<godbyk> I could see adding a section toward the end of the manual that gives a page or two to discuss the pros and cons of each derivative and provides pointers to documentation about them.
<piratemurray> almost as an advanced topic after i was comfortable with Linux/ Ubuntu
<shrini> with a screenshot?
<piratemurray> godbyk: yes
<godbyk> It's also possible to write manuals for each individual derivative at some point in the future, but that's a lot of work. :)
<c7p> godbyk: cool, the learning more chapter can host this section
<rickfosb> were gonna need a bigger boat  :-)
<godbyk> c7p: I think that 'Learning More' would be a good place for this info, yeah.
<issyl0> :-)
<godbyk> rickfosb: Definitely!
<rickfosb> c7p, agree
<CrustyBarnacle> who is updating notes?
<piratemurray> shrini: i wouldn't want to see screenshots of the different *buntus but that's just my opinion
<issyl0> c7p: Yup.
<godbyk> Basically, any derivative manuals would warrant their own team of authors and editors.  (Though they can share our toolchain, etc.)
<godbyk> Are there any other thoughts on this or shall we move on to the next agenda item?
<godbyk> [TOPIC] Useful applications (and how to install them)
<CrustyBarnacle> Next :-)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Useful applications (and how to install them)
<godbyk> Some of the applications listed under this agenda item include Wine, Adobe Acrobat Reader, Inkscape, Chromium, Skype, and XBMC Media Center.
<issyl0> Cool.
<shrini> No  acrobat reader
<issyl0> Hrm.  An interesting one...
<godbyk> The general question is, what applications should we discuss and how much detail should we go into?
<c7p> shrini: i agree
<shrini> it is huge
<debayan_> we already have evince.
<shrini> evince is great to read a pdf file
<CrustyBarnacle> shrini: Agreed
<rickfosb> I like the idea of 'Doing more...' but I would think we keep it simple with links to the source documentation?
<debayan_> Skype also is not such a must have app.
<c7p> rickfosb: i agree
<c7p> i don't think we need this chapter
<debayan_> Not even Wine. People should really be using Windows if they need Wine.
<piratemurray> debayan: i'd disagree. many people migrating to ubuntu would like to see skype
<CrustyBarnacle> I use Chromium... but don't want to start a browser feud.
<debayan_> piratemurray: So they jst need to google.
<debayan_> Skype hosts deb packages on their website, with instructions.
<piratemurray> arguably they can google everything in the manual
<shrini> we can say a like 'skype also available for ubuntu in their site<link here> '
<piratemurray> should we not make light of the fact that skype et al are available in linux?
<piratemurray> shrini: yes
<shrini> we have to say about gimp
<debayan_> piratemurray: I dont know if we should be pointing people towards installing proprieatary stuff on Ubuntu.
<c7p> remember that we are working on linux alternative apps table, and i think that's enough http://bit.ly/f0LTRQ
<debayan_> proprietary *
<shrini> what about multimedia codecs?
<shrini> ubuntu-restricted-extras
<debayan_> shrini: Multimedia codecs can be covered in the chapter that covers playing media, because in ubuntu all you have to do is click a few buttons.
<shrini> debayan_: thats fine
<godbyk> shrini: We do mention the restricted drivers and ubuntu-restricted-extras package.
<CrustyBarnacle> We mention the Installation option of selecting "third-party software" in Installation
<shrini> godbyk: good
<godbyk> The ubuntu-restricted-extras package is mentioned in the troubleshooting chapter.
<shrini> okey
<shrini> what about XMBC?
<godbyk> shrini: That's not mentioned.
<shrini> is it available in repository as default?
<CrustyBarnacle> XMBC is not desktop use, right?
<godbyk> Though Mythbuntu and MythTV are.
<shrini> it is not there in my 10.10 repos as default
<shrini> we can say about cheese
<shrini> handbrake
<godbyk> Do you think that the Linux/Windows app equivalences table will be sufficient?  Or do we need to go into more detail?
<shrini> gtkpod
<godbyk> If we need to go into more detail, should that detail be in this manual or in a separate document?
<shrini> yup
<shrini> that table would be so fine
<debayan_> godbyk: Table should be sufficient. The instructions for third party apps may change as well.
<godbyk> Okay.
<CrustyBarnacle> Table looks good...
<issyl0> Mmhmmm.
<godbyk> [TOPIC] Upload chapters for translation as they are completed
<rickfosb> godbyk; does it format for latex or do we link it?
<MootBot> New Topic:  Upload chapters for translation as they are completed
<godbyk> hannie: Did you or rickfosb add this item?
<rickfosb> wasn't me
<godbyk> rickfosb: Does what format for LaTeX?
<hannie> I did
<hannie> I wonder if this is possible
<godbyk> hannie: Okay. If I understand correctly, you'd like us to upload chapters for translation as they're completed instead of waiting for a manual-wide writing freeze. Is that correct?
<rickfosb> godby; last topic... does the table format easily for inclusion
<hannie> I mean, put the manual on Lp chapter by chapter
<godbyk> I don't think it's possible with our current toolchain.  Presently, all the chapters are mashed together before the .pot file is generated.
<c7p> a good solution to this could be the following
<godbyk> rickfosb: Ah, I haven't looked at the table, but LaTeX can handle tables.
<hannie> Or chapters could be translated offline (text files?)
<rickfosb> ok, moving on... thanks
<issyl0> godbyk: LaTeX table syntax looks more complicated than it is.  :-)
<piratemurray> surely the translators will check out the latest bzr LaTeX files and translate those directly? am i missing something?
<godbyk> piratemurray: The way translations currently work is:
<godbyk> We write and edit the .tex files until we hit the writing freeze date.
<c7p> hannie:  the whole manual is a series of strings, hopefully the strings are with the same queue as are paragraphs -except for margin notes-, we can give a list of string numbers per chapter
<godbyk> Then we run a script that reads all the .tex files and generates a .pot file.
<godbyk> this .pot file gets uploaded to launchpad for the translators.
<godbyk> The translators can work on translations via Launchpad or offline tools.
<c7p> e.g from 504 string up to 642 string = "Working with Ubuntu" chapter
<hannie> When the whole manual is finished, it is too late for translators to finish it before in time
<godbyk> Periodically, I'll download the .po files (which contain the translated text) for each language and generate draft PDFs that show their progress.
<hannie> that's why I would like to get each finished chapter as soon as possible
<CrustyBarnacle> Possible to do an earlier freeze date for longer chapters?
<godbyk> The problem is that if we make a change to the English .tex file and generate a new .pot file and upload that to Launchpad, it can (and often does) disrupt things that the translators have already translated.
<rickfosb> godbyk; as we 'commit', could we 'send' the corresponding tex file?
<rickfosb> ahh,
<shrini> yes
<shrini> we suffered by this for tamil translations
<debayan_> point.
<godbyk> rickfosb: For that to work, we'd need to have a separate .pot file per chapter.  (As it stands, there's currently just the one .pot file for the entire manual.)
<c7p> we don't have to rush, authors and editor should have all the time they need to write the content of the manual
<godbyk> I'm not sure if generating one .pot file per chapter is possible or not.  (I'd assume it is, but the script we're using is a bit awkward to use.)
<piratemurray> i'm a bit confused here, why can't we diff the uploaded LaTeX files and only translate the difference? we're essentially talking about a branching problem in a version controlled system, right?
<hannie> godbyk, that is exactly what I want, each chapter separately
<godbyk> piratemurray: The translators aren't working with .tex files. They're working with a derivative of the .tex files (a .pot file).
<rickfosb> seems breaking it into chapters would resolve the conflict between english and the translators
<piratemurray> godbyk: and why can't they work on the .tex file? it is a plain text file right?
<CrustyBarnacle> Can those who understand the process put together a summary of what this request would require? Feasible?
<hannie> godbyk, I could ask david planella if it can be realised
<godbyk> hannie: I'll give it a try and see if I can coerce the script to generate one .pot file per chapter.  No promises, though! :)
<debayan_> piratemurray: .pot is the standard way for i18n. yo can use offline tools like kbabel to translate.
<godbyk> hannie: We're currently using a script called po4a (po-for-anything), in case he's familiar with it.
<hannie> godbyk, ok
<debayan_> .pot files allow you to translate the strings to a wide number of languages using available interaces that understand and interpret .pot files and enale easy edition.
<debayan_> enable*
<piratemurray> all right so the problem here is that we *must* use .pot files to give to the translators?
<hannie> the advantage of Launchpad is that many translators can work on the same document
<piratemurray> i'm being dense, forgive me. i haven't used .pot files before
<debayan_> piratemurray: that is how internationalisation works everywhere. .pot files.
<godbyk> piratemurray: Well, we must use .pot files for the translators to be able to do their work via the Launchpad translation interface.
<piratemurray> and at the moment the .pot is the full manual and potentially when that is realised it is too late in terms of release deadlines?
<piratemurray> fair enough, i'm with you now. splitting them into chapter seems a sensible way forward in that case
<rickfosb> godbyk; is the pot generated in the makefile? or elsewhere?
<hannie> godbyk, we'll just wait and see what comes of it
<godbyk> rickfosb: I don't think we've added that to the Makefile (though we should).  I have the magic incantation somewhere in my notes.
<CrustyBarnacle> godbyk: Do we use translation memory (some auto translation approved by actual translators)?
<hannie> CrustyBarnacle, we do
<godbyk> hannie: Yeah. I'll try running po4a against a chapter .tex file (instead of the entire manual) sometime this week and see how much it hates that.
<rickfosb> godbyk; ok, thought it might make chapter generation possible if it is in our make
 * c7p godbyk is project's hero replying to everyone  and doing everything !
<godbyk> CrustyBarnacle: Via Launchpad, that's provided automatically (if it's a perfect match of an existing translation).
<CrustyBarnacle> godbyk: Thanks...
<hannie> godbyk, I would be very grateful if you give it a try
<godbyk> hannie: Sure thing.
<godbyk> [TOPIC] Any other business
<MootBot> New Topic:  Any other business
<godbyk> Okay, any other business anyone would like to bring up?
<godbyk> Questions, comments, concerns, criticisms?
<c7p> i have
<shrini> move the quickshot to ubuntu-manual.org site
<shrini> document it well
<shrini> send some acknowledge mail for the generated screenshots
<godbyk> shrini: I'll have to see what framework they're using for the Quickshot server.
<shrini> send email about approval/denial of screenshot
<shrini> godbyk: okey
<godbyk> shrini: Good ideas.  Can you file those are bugs/feature requests against Quickshot on Launchpad?
<godbyk> That way they won't get lost in the fray and they'll come to the attention of the Quickshot developers.
<shrini> atleast say about quick shot server details on ubuntu-manual site
<shrini> currently no information is available there on how to get the .qsproj files
<godbyk> Wasn't someone documenting the new Quickshot?  c7p, were you?
<c7p> i'm working on the http://ubuntu-manual.org/getinvolved/authors , i will update the content of the page soon, what i need the feedback from new authors and editors
<godbyk> shrini: Yeah, it's all a bit mysterious still.
<shrini> :-)
<c7p> godbyk: i'm not sure, maybe it was me :P
<c7p> i have some guidelines
<c7p> maybe i should upload them too website
<piratemurray> i have a question about chapters: are we going for a complete rewrite or where possible do you want to stick to what was done in previous UM releases?
<piratemurray> (sorry to jump in like that)
<debayan_> piratemurray: Some chapters, like the Ubuntu desktop will need complete rewrite i think.
<godbyk> piratemurray: No sense making more work for yourself. If the existing text is still accurate and well-written, keep it around.
<godbyk> For things that are completely new to Natty (e.g., Unity, Shotwell, etc.), we'll need to write new text.
<piratemurray> fair enough! sounds good
<hannie> How about all the gaps on the Authors/Editors page?
<godbyk> hannie: Can you be more specific?
<hannie> Are there enough candidates?
<hannie> I seen no names behind most of the chapters
<godbyk> Oh, in the spreadsheet?  We do have half a dozen or so volunteers that we need to add to that spreadsheet.
<godbyk> But we always welcome more volunteers.
<rickfosb> hannie; I'm in contact with some and will start filling in the blanks as soon as possible
<godbyk> Some of the chapters are rather lengthy and would benefit from a couple authors and editors to help share the workload.
<debayan_> I would like to have a go at "The Ubuntu Desktop". I have experience with Unity.
<rickfosb> debayan_; author?
<godbyk> Thanks, debayan_.
<debayan_> rickfosb: yes. Partly atleast.
<rickfosb> I'll add you to the list
<hannie> I have volunteered for the job of editor, but since I am not a native speaker I do not
<debayan_> Not sure how huge the chapter will be yet.
<hannie> know if that is ok
<godbyk> hannie: It's absolutely okay.  The more eyes/readers, the better.
<hannie> ok, you will read it in my email
<shrini> Do I need to learn latrex to be an author?
<rickfosb> hannie; got a chapter in mind?  I'll add you
<rickfosb> ok
<debayan_> What maling list do we join for this ?
<godbyk> I've found that translators are good at catching common English idioms that sneak into the text.
<rickfosb> hannie; ok
<hannie> I put Ubuntu Desktop in my email, but there is also another candiate for taht
<hannie> *that
<godbyk> debayan_: The Ubuntu Manual mailing list -- it's linked to on the Ubuntu Manual Launchpad page.
<godbyk> debayan_: http://launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual
<debayan_> ok fine. I joined that.
<shrini> godbyk: Is latex is essential to start authoring?
<shrini> godbyk: or shall I use OpenOffice to start writing?
<godbyk> shrini: It's not essential.  If you write well, we can find someone else to help with the formatting.
<shrini> awesome
<godbyk> I would recommend writing it in plain text instead of OpenOffice, though.
<shrini> hehe
<shrini> I agree
<godbyk> For the authors and editors, LaTeX is basically a markup language like HTML.
<rickfosb> shrini; the chapter editor and I can help put the tags into the text.
<shrini> I use asciidoc for my other documentation works
<godbyk> So it's plain text for the most part with some extra code to handle the formatting.
<debayan_> Its 3:10 AM here in India. I would take your leave, if all important issues have been discussed.
<shrini> debayan_: :-) ofcourse
<godbyk> debayan_: I think we've about finished here.  Thanks for coming (and staying up so late)!.
<issyl0> debayan_: Goodnight!
<c7p> debayan_: thx for coming :) good night
<hannie> debayan_, it was nice meeting you here.
<shrini> crossed all the sleep limits
<CrustyBarnacle> Goodnight, and Thanks to all!
<debayan_> godbyk: issyl0 shrini hannie no problem. Good Night.
<shrini> same here guys.
<shrini> me too at 3.10 am
<godbyk> Thanks for coming, shrini.
<CrustyBarnacle> Great to meet everyone
<shrini> thanks for all
<CrustyBarnacle> This team rocks!!
<hannie> shrini, goodnight to you too
<godbyk> Are there any other last-minute issues?
<shrini> thanks hannie c7p godbyk CrustyBarnacle rickfosb
<hannie> There is work to do for a lot of people ;)
<c7p> godbyk: i don't think so
<godbyk> All right, then.
<godbyk> Meeting adjourned!
<godbyk> #endmeeting
<c7p> thank you all for coming ! good job godbyk
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 16:37.
<godbyk> Thanks for coming, everyone.
<rickfosb> Good meeting godbyk!
<hannie> thanks everybody, see you next time
<piratemurray> thanks everyone!
<shrini> bye for all
<rickfosb> c7p; i'll read the changes you sent over now
<issyl0> Woo.
<c7p> rickfosb ok thx :)
<rickfosb> bye all;
* godbyk changed the topic of #ubuntu-manual to: Ubuntu Manual Project discussion | Style Guide: http://files.ubuntu-manual.org/style-guide.pdf | Website: http://ubuntu-manual.org | Launchpad: https://launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual | IRC logs: http://irclogs.ubuntu.com
#ubuntu-manual 2011-04-17
<JasonO> No meeting today?
<j1mc> is anyone from the ubuntu-manual project going to be at UDS?
<daker> !logs
#ubuntu-manual 2012-04-14
<benonsoftware> Hi
<benonsoftware> What should I do if I see a typo while translating?
#ubuntu-manual 2013-04-08
<hannie> hi cqfd93 can I ask you something?
<cqfd93> Oops, sorry, Hannie!!!
<CarstenG> cqfd93: Hi Sylvie!
<CarstenG> Thanks for uploading some screenshots!
<CarstenG> I thought the icon for the Ubuntu Software-Center has changed?
<CarstenG> It looks, like you uploaded an older version?
<cqfd93> Hi CarstenG
<cqfd93> No, all the screenshots I uploaded were made with Raring in my virtual machine
<CarstenG> ok.
<CarstenG> At the moment I have no access to my raring laptop and there I saw an other icon for the USC, but this is still some days ago, so it might have changed again... :-)
<CarstenG> On small hint for your bzr setting:
<CarstenG> It looks like your name setting in bzr is not right in syntax
<CarstenG> it should be something like this "Name <email@address.org>"
<cqfd93> yes, I noticed that, but I didn't know what to do
<CarstenG> Otherwise your contribution will not count as karma on LP :-)
<cqfd93> :-)
<cqfd93> can I change it?
<CarstenG> ah, one moment
<CarstenG> yes
<CarstenG> go to the terminal
<CarstenG> and type:
<CarstenG> bzr whoami "My Name <email@address.org>"
<CarstenG> with the "" and <>
<CarstenG> see also: bzr help whoami
<cqfd93> ok, it's done
<cqfd93> I remember I tried several whoami commands, but I was probably not using the right syntax
<CarstenG> to check your input type: bzr whoami
<cqfd93> I did it
<CarstenG> ok, let's see, what happens in the next commit :-)
<cqfd93> it returns my launchpad name and address
<cqfd93> ok
<cqfd93> I'm having troubles doing some screenshots, because the descriptions of some of the packages are in Frence
<cqfd93> *French
<CarstenG> Well, you could create an account with English language setting.
<CarstenG> Then all should be ok, or?
<cqfd93> I only installed the English version of raring
<cqfd93> and I'm using the united states server
<cqfd93> in the VM
<CarstenG> strange...
<cqfd93> yes indeed
<CarstenG> from where does the VM know, that your host is in French setting?
<CarstenG> I just try it here too, but with German host...
<cqfd93> I have no idea...
<cqfd93> for example, if I search "chess" in USC, I get almost a dozen of software with French descriptions
<CarstenG> ok, I will try it. Download of the iso is nearly finished...
<cqfd93> ok
<cqfd93> CarstenG, can you take a look at the suggestion I made in software-management.tex earlier today, I'm not sure I did it the right way
<CarstenG> You mean your change in rev 101?
<manualbot> http://bazaar.launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual/revision/101 | http://bazaar.launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual -r 101
<cqfd93> yes
<CarstenG> Well, you can directly change what you want to modify. Not only the comments.
<CarstenG> Be brave and change :-)
<cqfd93> I'm not sure what I wrote is better...
<CarstenG> Yes, it sounds more fluent, not twice "known as a..."
<cqfd93> OK.
<cqfd93> Should I just rephrase? Keep the old version in a comment?
<CarstenG> Well, the old version will be available over the bzr history.
<CarstenG> So IMHO, this is not necessary.
<cqfd93> Well, just edited the file with the old version in a comment, if someone wants to remove it, it's OK :-)
<cqfd93> Now to commit and push...
<cqfd93> but first, a make
<CarstenG> Yes, a make is always recommended :-)
<cqfd93> and I didn't forget a pull :-)
<CarstenG> well done :-)
<cqfd93> :-)
<CarstenG> ok, my raring installation is now going in a VM.
<cqfd93> good!
<cqfd93> rev 106 done
<manualbot> http://bazaar.launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual/revision/106 | http://bazaar.launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual -r 106
<CarstenG> Yes, it looks good. Also your bzr ID is now ok :-)
<CarstenG> Now your karma grows more due to the bzr contribution :-)
<cqfd93> :-)
<cqfd93> just uploaded another screenshot (rev 107)
<manualbot> http://bazaar.launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual/revision/107 | http://bazaar.launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual -r 107
<cqfd93> Time to go to bed
<cqfd93> Good night!
#ubuntu-manual 2013-04-09
<CarstenG> Hi all
<CarstenG> cqfd93: Nice to read, that you solved your problems with the Raring VM. :-)
<cqfd93> Hi CarstenG
<cqfd93> yes, now I can do more screenshots
<CarstenG> Hi Sylvie
<CarstenG> Great,
<CarstenG> I will do also some...
<cqfd93> :-)
<cqfd93> just took a screenshot for additional drivers, but as I'm using a VG, it doesn't show proprietary drivers, just the guest addons
<cqfd93> I'm about to pull/make/add/commit/push :-)
<CarstenG> mmmh, if we can wait until Sunday, I can make this screenshot of proprietary drivers. I have raring on my old laptop directly, not in VM..
<CarstenG> Good workflow :-)
<CarstenG> I would insert a "pull" directly before the "commit".
<CarstenG> Otherwise during "make/add", other people could have uploaded a new version.
<cqfd93> I'll push it anyway, just to see where it goes (hope it is not right in the middle of the servers section
<cqfd93> even if I do the commit just after the add?
<cqfd93> pull before the add
<cqfd93> rev 115 done
<manualbot> http://bazaar.launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual/revision/115 | http://bazaar.launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual -r 115
<cqfd93> manualbot: your links don't work!!! ;-)
<manualbot> cqfd93: Error: "your" is not a valid command.
<CarstenG> Well, it is not a big accident if you commit your changes after someone else made a new version which you not yet know. bzr will do a merge of your commit. But now in these day where is a lot activity, I do just before my commit again a pull to be sure to have the last version and to avoid conflicts...
<cqfd93> ok
<CarstenG> Well, he should be quiet :-)
<CarstenG> manualbot: Who is your owner?
<cqfd93> manualbot is stupid! ;-)
<manualbot> cqfd93: Error: "is" is not a valid command.
<cqfd93> in fact, I'm not sure this additional drivers screenshot is needed, or maybe it should be somewhere else, its own sub-section...
<cqfd93> And what do you think of adding a screenshot in the "Selecting the best software server" subsection showing how to select a server?
<cqfd93> "
<CarstenG> Well, this is already mentioned in figure 5.8, or?
<cqfd93> Yes, but it could be a screenshot of the "Choose a download server" that you get when you click "other..."
<CarstenG> ah, ok.
<CarstenG> Yes, sure. Feel free to add such a screenshot. :-)
<cqfd93> it will take me a while to do that :-)
<cqfd93> maybe not!
<cqfd93> I have to understand how to do it...
<CarstenG> Well, this is the command, what you need: \screenshot{05-<filename>.png}{ss:<label>}{<description>}
<CarstenG> Replace all the text between < and > with your current information.
<cqfd93> OK, thank you
<cqfd93> hello teolemon!
<teolemon> hello
<dutchie> CarstenG: you pinged manualbot?
<cqfd93> dutchie: we talkes about manualbot a few hours ago
<cqfd93> the links it gives for revisions are broken
<cqfd93> try rev 117
<manualbot> http://bazaar.launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual/revision/117 | http://bazaar.launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual -r 117
<cqfd93> all I get is "Not Found     The resource could not be found. "
<dutchie> hmm
<dutchie> i'm guessing lp changed the urls
<dutchie> let me investigate
 * dutchie tweaks url settings
<dutchie> rev 117
<manualbot> http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-manual/ubuntu-manual/raring/revision/117 | http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-manual/ubuntu-manual/raring -r 117
<cqfd93> Great! Thank you!
<dutchie> np :)
<dutchie> there doesn't seem to be a way to automatically redirect to the development focus branch
<dutchie> so it will need updating every time that changes
<cqfd93> Can you help me with a commit problem?
<dutchie> but it should work fine aside from that
<dutchie> i'm afraid i have to go to bed now as i have a train to catch in approximately 8 hours
<cqfd93> OK.  Good night!
<dutchie> you too :)
<cqfd93> thank you
<dutchie> hope the project is doing well since i stopped having time to commit to it!
<cqfd93> It seems to be doing well
<cqfd93> carsteng?
<cqfd93> godbyk?
<godbyk> cqfd93: Hi!
<cqfd93> hi kevin
<godbyk> cqfd93: How can I help?
<cqfd93> i made a mistake after a bzr add and when trying to commit, I got the error message "bzr: ERROR: No changes to commit. Please 'bzr add' the files you want to commit, or use --unchanged to force an empty commit.
<cqfd93> "
<cqfd93> as I am not a bzr guru, I didn't know the exact syntax...
<godbyk> cqfd93: What does 'bzr status' print out?
<cqfd93> then I tried "bzr uncommit -r 117"
<cqfd93> added:
<cqfd93>   screenshots/en_US/05-choosing-download-server.png
<godbyk> Okay, so you just want to add that screenshot?
<cqfd93> yes
<godbyk> Okay, you should be able to just run 'bzr commit' now.
<cqfd93> hello YoBoY!
<cqfd93> will try to commit
<cqfd93> Commit and push done, phew! rev 118
<manualbot> http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-manual/ubuntu-manual/raring/revision/118 | http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-manual/ubuntu-manual/raring -r 118
<godbyk> Yay!
<cqfd93> thank you godbyk!
<godbyk> cqfd93: No problem!
<cqfd93> kevin, all the screenshots for the Software Management chapter are done, but fig 5.9 should be in page 109 instead of page 110
<godbyk> cqfd93: I'll move the figures around once the rest of the editing is complete.
<godbyk> When text is changed, the figures move of their own accord sometimes.
<godbyk> So I have to wait for all the other editing to be finished first.
<cqfd93> OK
<CarstenG> Hi again.
<CarstenG> Was away from keyboard..
<CarstenG> Hi dutchie, thanks for updating the manualbot!
<cqfd93> hi again!
<CarstenG> Ok, time to go to bed now.
<CarstenG> See you tomorrow.
<cqfd93> See you tomorrow.
<cqfd93> Time for me to go to bed. Bye everybody!
#ubuntu-manual 2013-04-10
<cqfd93> rev 121
<manualbot> http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-manual/ubuntu-manual/raring/revision/121 | http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-manual/ubuntu-manual/raring -r 121
#ubuntu-manual 2013-04-11
<cqfd93> hello carsteng!
<CarstenG> cqfd93: Hi Sylvie!
<cqfd93> I started proofreading "Reading and composing mail" in chapter 3
<cqfd93> and added 2 screenshots
<CarstenG> Great.
<CarstenG> I guess my VM installation of raring is broken. Sometimes I get only a black screen after login...
<CarstenG> I think, I will redo a complete installation in the VM.
<cqfd93> :-(
<CarstenG> Which program do you use for virtualisation?
<cqfd93> I use virtualbox
<cqfd93> In chapter 3, the paragraph that describes how to setup an account in thunderbird is missing the case where thunderbird fails to automatically detect the imap/pop/smtp servers
<cqfd93> it says: "Once completed, click the \button{continue} button. \application{Thunderbird} will automatically set up your email account for you. When \application{Thunderbird} finishes detecting your email settings, click \button{create account} and \application{Thunderbird} will do the rest."
<cqfd93> and each time I had to setup real mail accounts, it failed :-(
<CarstenG> Well, maybe we should give a marginnote to a thunderbird forum for detailed support in this case?
<CarstenG> I used QEMU for virtualisation until today. But I will give virtualbox a try.
<cqfd93> I think it would be better to briefly explain what to do, because this is a problem lots of users will run into
<cqfd93> but a margingnote  to a forum will help if everything else fails
<CarstenG> ok, sounds good.
<CarstenG> So I had always the luck that it worked as expected. :-) I guess it depend on your email provider...
<CarstenG> ... if it is in the thunderbird database.
<cqfd93> it also depends on the ISP which provides the smtp service
<CarstenG> Yes? e.g I have GMX as email provider. But this has nothing to do with my ISP, or?
<cqfd93> If you use smtp on port 25, your ISP relays your outgoing mail and you have to use their smtp
<cqfd93> but on a laptop that can be used through different ISPs, you have to use your email address provider's authenticated smtp (most often on port 587 or 465)
<cqfd93> and thunderbird will not detect that
<cqfd93> so you have to setup the account manually
<CarstenG> ah, ok
<CarstenG> I use 465
<CarstenG> so I had no problems...
<cqfd93> did thunderbird autodetect your pop/smtp settings?
<CarstenG> yes
<cqfd93> lucky you! :-)
<cqfd93> CarstenG: what do you think of that?
<cqfd93> If Thunderbird fails to create the account, you may need to configure it manually, using the parameters that were sent to you by your email address provider and your ISP. If you are still unable to set up your account, you can get help on the forum...
<CarstenG> yes, sounds good :-)
<cqfd93> OK, I'll do that this weekend, for now it's time to go to bed.
<cqfd93> Good night!
#ubuntu-manual 2013-04-13
<jconnett> Anybody here, yet!
<c7p> hallo !
<TonyP> Hi everyone!
<godbyk> Hey, c7p. Hi, jconnett!
<godbyk> Hey, TonyP.
<cqfd93> Hi everyone!
<TonyP> Made it on time, this time :-)
<cqfd93> :-)
<c7p> \me 2nd meeting for today
 * c7p forgot the commands
<jconnett> Howdy all. Yes...I, too, forgot the commands, so nothing fancy from me today!
<c7p> excuse me for coming without preparation, is there any agenda ?
<godbyk> c7p: No formal agenda.
<godbyk> c7p: I basically just want to check in with everyone and see how things are going, etc.
<godbyk> Hi, hannie!
<hannie> hey godbyk and all present
<jconnett> Alright! 2:00pm PDT. Let's get this party started!
<c7p> nice then !
<CarstenG> Hi at all
<cqfd93> hi!
<CarstenG> Good evening :-)
<jconnett> @impeccable timing, Carsten!
<meetingology> jconnett: Error: "impeccable" is not a valid command.
<manualbot> jconnett: Error: "impeccable" is not a valid command.
<jconnett> Excellent timing, Carsten!
<c7p> hi !
<CarstenG> Yes, just came back from a family party :-)
<godbyk> Okay, let's see if anyone is missing.
<godbyk> CarstenG: Aw, sorry to pull you away from that.
<CarstenG> No problem
<godbyk> It looks like most of us are here. We're missing two or three, but they may pop in a bit later.
<godbyk> I'll fire up meetingology just so it records everything, but I expect this meeting will be fairly informal.
<godbyk> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Sat Apr 13 21:03:46 2013 UTC.  The chair is godbyk. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
<jconnett> We'll save all the work to assign to those missing...when they pop in!
<godbyk> #topic Roll call
<godbyk> If you're here, say hi!
<jconnett> Hi
<cqfd93> hi!
<hannie> hi
<TonyP> Hi
<CarstenG> Hi
<c7p> hi
<godbyk> Excellent!
<godbyk> #topic Status report
<godbyk> I called this meeting to touch base with everyone and see how things are going.
<godbyk> I wanted to hear from the authors and editors of any problems they're encountering and if they think we can still make our schedule or if we need to adjust things.
<hannie> Perhaps we should start with the authoring phase?
<godbyk> hannie: Good idea.
<godbyk> So how are things on the authoring side?
<hannie> https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0ApS28NMLnYJXdGd1LVl5X2hvNkg2SEZiVzZ2RnYtWHc#gid=0
<godbyk> The authoring phase was originally scheduled to be complete at March 25 but we informally extended it for a week or so.
<c7p> is there any author here ?
<jconnett> I became an unofficial author as I had to undo Nautilus and incorporate Files in the Desktop chapter.
<godbyk> Have we heard from John Cave recently?
<hannie> jconnett, I had already rewritten Nautilus (to files)
<godbyk> jconnett: Okay, so are you effectively authoring and editing the dash/search bar/browsing files section? How about the Ubuntu desktop environment section?
<c7p> yeah, he sent me a mail saying he don't want to contribute to our project any more
<hannie> Did you have to add things to it?
<godbyk> c7p: Okay.
<c7p> he did his section but i don't know how well it is
<godbyk> c7p: Oh. I'll undo my changes in the spreadsheet then. :-)
<c7p> so i sent it to Jim Connett, not sure if he received it
<jconnett> Hannie had already rewritten the Nautilus section, but there were at least 5 sections I can recall where commands/GUI/screen responses were different.
<c7p> jconnett: have you received my mail ?
<godbyk> jconnett: Yeah. There may be more, too. We'll have to keep our eyes open for that. Nautilus/Files is kind of pervasive.
<jconnett> @c7p Yes, I did. I incorporated the file. Didn't I reply?>
<meetingology> jconnett: Error: "c7p" is not a valid command.
<manualbot> jconnett: Error: "c7p" is not a valid command.
<TonyP> I have done changes Nautilus > Files in U1 section
<godbyk> Hi, tacorwin.
<tacorwin> Hello, godbyk
<godbyk> For the next cycle, I may add some more LaTeX commands just for our internal use.
<c7p> jconnett:  i think not, but no big deal if you are doing/did the job
<godbyk> We'd use these commands to note which versions of the software are documented in each section/chapter.
<godbyk> That way we can compare those versions with new versions and see what's different.
<godbyk> Otherwise it's hard to track down each mention of something.
<tacorwin> Are authors still allowed to edit their sections?
<godbyk> We can also add some commands to specify what state the section is in (needs review, currently being edited, finished, etc.).
<godbyk> That will help is keep track of our progress.
<godbyk> tacorwin: Are you still working on a section? Which one?
<hannie> c7p, have you had any emails from Vibhav Pant?
<c7p> tacorwin:   typically not, but i think if they can come in contact with the editor maybe
<c7p> hannie: no i haven't get any mail from him
<tacorwin> I was going to look at, and review the Advanced Topic section. I wanted to go through and hopefully add a few screenshots, if someone could take them for me.
<tacorwin> I needed to look over the section on WINE
<godbyk> tacorwin: Okay. You should chat with jconnett and work with him on that so you guys don't end up with conflicting files.
<tacorwin> godbyk: Alrighty.
<jconnett> I'm done with my pass through the Advanced section. Feel free to hack away.
<c7p> to complete the report of what remain to be done from the authoring aspect
<c7p> Software Management chapter doesn't have author
<TonyP> Something needs to be done with Microblogging
<tacorwin> jconnett, godbyk, and c7p: Alright. Thanks guys.
<c7p> *Viewing and Editing Photos
<c7p> *Reading and composing mail
<c7p> * Burning CDs and DVDs
<c7p> also don't have authors but author is not needed in these sections i guess too
<jconnett> I already went through Viewing/Editing Photos as well as teh Burning CDs and DVDs section...made changes as needed.
<c7p> so Software center is the problem
<godbyk> jconnett: Okay, so those sections are up to date now?
<c7p> soft. management*
<jconnett> I'd say yes, but wouldn't hurt to have someone else go through it again.
<hannie> cqfd93, edited software management
<cqfd93> I already reviewed software management
<cqfd93> and made the screenshots
<godbyk> cqfd93: Does that chapter need to be updated or is it in good shape?
<jconnett> I've been lazy about my screenshots. I think Carsten was covering for me on that front, right Carsten?
<cqfd93> it seems in good shape
<godbyk> cqfd93: Okay, thanks.
<cqfd93> when I see screenshots I can do in other chapters, I do them :-)
<tacorwin> jconnett: Could you possibly help me get some screenshots taken? I am unable to install 13.04 on any of my machines.
<godbyk> The original plan for screenshots was that authors would take the initial screenshots.  These draft screenshots can be the wrong size, wrong theme, etc. but need to provide enough info to the screenshot editors so they know what the screenshot should be of when they retake it 'properly'.
<CarstenG> Well, I have some problems this week with my VM QEMU. But tomorrow I'm back at my laptop with real raring installation and I can contribute missing screenshots.
<godbyk> But it seems as if there's been some confusion or problems when it comes to screenshots.
<c7p> godbyk +1
<godbyk> How is everyone currently handling screenshots?
<tacorwin> I am an author, and are unable to take any screenshots, godbyk
<tacorwin> but i would like a couple put into the manual
<godbyk> tacorwin: Can you at least take some draft screenshots that give us enough idea of what you want an official screenshot it?
<tacorwin> it will have to be taken on a machine with Ubuntu 12.04.2, if that is alright.
<CarstenG> What means  "unable to take any screenshots", tacorwin?
<godbyk> An easy way to take a draft screenshot is to ensure you have the proper window active and then press Alt+PrintScreen.
<godbyk> If you want a screenshot of the entire desktop, just press PrintScreen.
<godbyk> A window will appear asking you for the filename and where to save the screenshot.
<tacorwin> I am unable to use 13.04 on my current machine, CarstenG.
<CarstenG> ... or use the nice little program "shreenshot"
<tacorwin> Alt-PrintScreen works for me.
<CarstenG> ok
<godbyk> CarstenG: Or that. Though if that's the program you and hannie have been promoting, it seems that everyone forgets to turn off the cursor and other settings.
<hannie> It's all in the style guide
<godbyk> Are there any chapters or sections that we still need an author or editor to look at it?
<hannie> Chapter 4: screenshots
<godbyk> It sounds like some of those 'missing author' sections have been reviewed by editors already.
<cqfd93> tacorwin: what section are you working on?
<CarstenG> right, Kevin, but Alt+PrintScreen takes also the mouspointer into account.
<hannie> Not all chapters/sections have an editor, but not all chapters need one
<godbyk> CarstenG: I just tried it here and I don't see a mouse cursor in the screenshot.
<tacorwin> cqfd93: The "Advanced Topics" chapter, specifically the "How to run Windows Programs on Ubuntu" section
<hannie> Have we decided on what to do with Wubi yet?
<godbyk> For the sections in the spreadsheet with (none) listed as the author, do any of those sections need an author at this point?
<jconnett> FYI...I just filled in my name to the empty "editor" slots on Chapter 2. I went through the whole chapter.
<godbyk> hannie: I haven't heard anything more about it since that mailing list posting, but I haven't searched around either.
<cqfd93> tacorwin: ok, I'll se if I can take screenshots for it
<godbyk> hannie: We should track someone down and get confirmation about Wubi one way or another, though.
<jconnett> Wubi is gone, right? If so, the section goes to the bit-bucket in the sky.
<hannie> godbyk, perhaps we should leave it in this version of the manual
<tacorwin> Thanks you cqfd93 ! I dont have the LaTeX code there for it yet, but i will have it there tonight.
<godbyk> jconnett: Ostensibly, yes. But someone mentioned that it still lives on the daily ISO image.
<TonyP> Yes wubi has gone
<c7p> i can't tell for sure if an author is needed for sure on any section
<godbyk> Okay, I'll pull the Wubi stuff from the manual then. If it ends up getting added back to the ISO, then we can reinstate that material.
<CarstenG> yes, I found the wubi.exe in the iso from 8th april.
<hannie> TonyP, some sites say it has gone, others say it may be dropped from raring
<cqfd93> the hardware chapter only has one (tiny) screenshot, is that intentional?
<jconnett> I've seen many message in my RSS feed regarding Wubi-no-more.
<c7p> godbyk: i guess editors can tell at this phase of the series
<TonyP> hannie: it has bugs init
<hannie> so people who have installed wubi should not switch to raring?
<godbyk> I'll drop Wubi for now. I can add it back in later if I get some official word that it will be on the ISO (and is functional).
<godbyk> Is there anything else to discuss on the authoring phase?
<godbyk> If not, we can move on to the editing phase.
<jconnett> I just googled "wubi in ubuntu 13.04 raring"...every article states it's dropped.
<jconnett> ...that is, every article on the FIRST page of results :)
<hannie> c7p, will you adjust the credits section for the authors part? I will add editors names
<c7p> sure
<tacorwin> hmm.. I wonder why wubi is being dropped?
<jconnett> buggy.
<tacorwin> thats true..
<jconnett> unmaintained
<CarstenG> it has problem working under windows 8 e.g.
<jconnett> ...CarstenG: yea, that too.
<tacorwin> ah. i see.
<hannie> I have had no problems with wubi on a Windows 7 machine so far
<tacorwin> hannie: I had problems with 12.04.3. All of the graphics were screwed up and files were corrupted.
<tacorwin> using wubi.exe
<hannie> tacorwin, that is not so good
<jconnett> If it's not actively maintained, it's a risk to the integrity of the user experience, so it makes sense.
<hannie> It depends on what bios is installed
<tacorwin> I'd take over the wubi project if i could. and its not always BIOS at fault.
<hannie> So, do we agree to leave the wubi part out of this version of our manual?
<jconnett> Agree!
<TonyP> yes
<tacorwin> Agree as well.
<jconnett> '%' it!~
<hannie> jconnett, good idea
<jconnett> Can someone do a global search through the ENTIRE manual to ensure "wubi" is not mentioned?
<godbyk> jconnett: I'll take care of the Wubi stuff.
<cqfd93> there is still its entry in the glossary ;-)
<godbyk> #topic Editing phase
<godbyk> On to the editing phase!
<godbyk> How are all of our wonderful editors doing?
<TonyP> I have done U1 and IM
<hannie> welcome mkani
<TonyP> But Microblogging is a real problem
<hannie> I have posponed the closing of the editors phase to this weekend, is that ok?
<TonyP> Gwibber has been dropped from 13.04
<cqfd93> I've done Software Management and started working on  *Reading and composing mail
<hannie> TonyP, does it need a lot of rewriting?
<godbyk> hannie: The original deadline for closing the editing phase is the 15th. Does that still work?
<hannie> What has replaced gwibber, TonyP
<godbyk> TonyP: Is there a Gwibber replacement?
<TonyP> hannie: Yes or dropping altogether
<mkani> I have completed the LibreOffice and Instant messaging chapters and pushed them across with screenshots. Proofreading has been completed.
<hannie> godbyk, originally it was April 8 I think
<TonyP> godbyk: its called FRIENDS
<godbyk> hannie: Ah, you're right. I pushed it a week later in my head, too.
<mkani> If there are any further requirements for proofreading/editing please let me know.
<jconnett> For those editing Chapter 5, are you certain that the chapter is solid...without any declared authors?
<hannie> cqfd93, I still see editing in progress. Are you almost finished?
<cqfd93> yes, but if someone could proofread it...
<TonyP> godbyk: hannie: I cannot figure out Friends.  Its not a complete Gwibber replacement
<hannie> cqfd93, it was proofread by David Pires, but he did not change anything
<mkani> I would be happy to proof read if necessary
<hannie> TonyP, would it be sufficient to '%' the Gwibber part?
<godbyk> TonyP: Okay, it sounds like that Gwibber/Friends stuff will require quite a bit of work then.
<cqfd93> I made a few changes
<cqfd93> but it was already very good
<jconnett> godbyk: too bad, too, because the social aspect of any OS is so important these days.
<hannie> cqfd93, are you talking about software management?
<TonyP> hannie: godbyk: probably best to drop the microblogging section
<hannie> TonyP, ay, the whole section?
<cqfd93> hannie: yes
<TonyP> hannie: godbyk: it someone can mention the Friends lens in the Dash
<godbyk> The Friend lens should probably be mentioned in the Dash section (in chapter 2).
<jconnett> Is the Friend lens installed by default? I don't remember.
<jconnett> Home, Application, Files & Folders, Music, Photos, Video (absolutely SICK that I did that from memory!)
<TonyP> Looks like it is.  I just put 13.04 on a USB and it was there
<tacorwin> Alright everyone, I must leave now. Have a good morning/afternoon/day/evening/night!
<godbyk> jconnett: Nicely done! :-)
<hannie> I have just opened raring beta in VB, but I do not see a friends lens
<tacorwin> (dont know where everyone is located....)
<godbyk> tacorwin: Thanks for coming!
<tacorwin> no problem! :)
<hannie> bye tacorwin thanks for coming
<cqfd93> bye tacorwin!
<TonyP> hannie: is it a up to date version
<jconnett> There are 6 lens at the bottom of the Dash. I have no Friends lens.  I'll look again tonight after pulling the latest beta.
<mkani> I can't see a friends lense myself
<hannie> TonyP, yes, I downloaded it yesterday
<godbyk> jconnett: Okay, thanks. If it's not there by default, we may need to see when it shows up.
<hannie> TonyP, but I do not use Twitter or Facebook
<tacorwin> goodbye. cqfd93: Get in touch with me about screenshots! <tacorwin@outlook.com>
<godbyk> Does it show up after you've created accounts through Friends? If so, it can probably just be mentioned in the Microblogging section (if we manager to rewrite it in time)
<jconnett> I'll own this for Chapter 2. Let me update tonight and see if it's there. If it is, then it'll be referenced in the manual in Chapter 2.
<TonyP> I cannot seem to install Friends as such.
<godbyk> jconnett: Great, thanks! If it's not, let us know and we may put it in the microblogging section (if we don't just remove that section entirely).
<TonyP> Not like Gwibber
<hannie> thanks, jconnett
<godbyk> TonyP: Friends isn't installed by default?
<hannie> when I type friends in the dash I get contacts
<mkani> Just a thouht but if htere are certain uncertainties regarding apps can't we add these as updates via a website dedicated to the manual
<hannie> Welcome to Contacts!
<jconnett> According to UbuntuUpdates, Friends has been deleted from the repository, and it is an installable app.
<jconnett> http://www.ubuntuupdates.org/package/core/raring/universe/base/unity-lens-friends
<godbyk> mkani: We can, but when we update the manual after we've released it, it causes problems for the translators.
<mkani> Fair point...just an idea
<hannie> jconnett, so it is not installed by default
<TonyP> godbyk: Friends is installed, but it says it is friends-server run from the command line
<godbyk> Hmm.. okay, let's doing some digging on the Friends situation and post our notes to the mailing list.
<godbyk> If Friends is installed by default, we should try to document it if we can.
<godbyk> If it's not installed by default, then we can just remove the Microblogging section for this cycle.
<c7p> sounds reasonable to me
<TonyP> As microblogging is all about Gwibber, it should be removed
<mkani> When informing others of Ubuntu OS their main concern are viruses. How much of this is covered? As this is my first time on such a project this will be helpful for me too.
<godbyk> We'll do some poking around during the next couple days and post our findings to the mailing list. We can make a final decision on Monday or Tuesday.
<TonyP> OK
<godbyk> TonyP: Agreed. I'll take care of removing the Microblogging section for now.
<mkani> Due to the increase in social media and the fact it's for beginners, we need to ensure the users are aware of any ant-virus software or of any default security settings within Ubuntu.
<godbyk> mkani: Right now we say: "Many viruses designed to primarily target Windows-based systems to not affect Ubuntu systems."
<mkani> I understand but there is that concern from others I have spoken too. As an Ubuntu user mt
<godbyk> mkani: And in a side note: "Just because Ubuntu implements strong security by default doesn't mean the user can throw caution to the wind. Care should be taken when downloading files, opening email, and browsing the Internet. Using a good antivirus program is warranted."
<godbyk> mkani: And that's all we say at the moment.
<godbyk> Are there any other issues for the editing phase?
<mkani> Noted....thanks
<hannie> I have asked editors via the list to update the spreadsheet, which they did. Thanks for that.
<godbyk> Will all the editing be complete by 15 April (Monday)?
<hannie> If not all editorial work has been done yet, I would appreciate it if editors can say when they will have finished their editorial work on the spreadsheet
<godbyk> We're running out of buffer in our schedule. :-)
<hannie> godbyk, do you know who is going to do the indexing?
<godbyk> I'd like to get a public draft released soon so we can have others help with proofreading and get public comments.
<hannie> teolemon, welcome
<mkani> I will update spreadsheet  as soon as
<teolemon> hi hannie
<godbyk> hannie: I think we have anyone specifically assigned to it. We tend to do it as we write/edit so far.
<hannie> godbyk, the proofreading can begin as far as I'm concerned
<godbyk> Are there any objections to my posting a public draft of our manual on Monday to solicit comments and proofreading from the public?
<mkani> That would be great, if there are to be comments, what will be te cut off?
<TonyP> hannie: I will try and have another look at Instant Messaging as thing are changing there as well
<godbyk> mkani: We'll accept comments until 22 April.
<godbyk> After 22 April, we'll need to have everything finished so I can start doing the final edits.
<mkani> great...thanks
<hannie> TonyP, if you can do that, it would be great
<godbyk> then we'll be ready to publish the manual on 25 April.
<hannie> godbyk, will you publish the draft on crocodoc?
<jconnett> I think we should release the manual to proof on Monday, even if it's missing a few last-minute elements.
<godbyk> hannie: Yes. I think that's worked pretty well for us in the past.
<godbyk> jconnett: I agree. We'll spend this week finishing the on-going editing and also incorporating comments/edits from the public.
<hannie> godbyk, is it necessary to wait until editors have finished before you put it on crocodoc?
<godbyk> hannie: Not really. Except that other people may notice the parts we're still working on and comment about it. :-)
<jconnett> Crocodoc doesn't allow edits by users, just notations, right?
<godbyk> jconnett: Correct.
<godbyk> jconnett: So we have to periodically skim through the annotations and incorporate the changes into our files.
<hannie> godbyk, do we have to send an email about the indexing?
<godbyk> jconnett: I periodically upload a fresh draft to crocodoc, too.
<mkani> If the cut off is sunday taking into account time differences and so forth becuase if put out for comments on Monday, others may still be working on it
<jconnett> Then I don't see an issue with releasing a version to Crocodoc while the "real" version is being worked on.
<godbyk> hannie: I wouldn't worry about the indexing at this point.
<godbyk> hannie: If you find things that should be indexed, feel free to add them.
<hannie> godbyk, ok
<godbyk> hannie: (We've never really had dedicated indexers. It's been mostly a dream on my part. ;-))
<hannie> It takes time to become an expert ;)
<godbyk> Okay, are there any other issues that anyone would like to discuss?
<hannie> godbyk, when the raring manual is released, will it be ready for translators on LP as well?
<godbyk> hannie: Yes.
<cqfd93> then I can put on my translator and bug hunter hat! ;-)
<godbyk> cqfd93: Hey, you're supposed to be finding bugs *now*.  ;-)
<jconnett> I have no other issues.
<cqfd93> I know!
<jconnett> ...well, now issues THIS group can help with ! :)
<godbyk> jconnett: Ha!
<godbyk> Okay, then. I officially call this meeting to a close!
<godbyk> #endmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting ended Sat Apr 13 22:15:26 2013 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes (wiki):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-manual/2013/ubuntu-manual.2013-04-13-21.03.moin.txt
<meetingology> Minutes (html):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-manual/2013/ubuntu-manual.2013-04-13-21.03.html
<godbyk> You're all welcome to hang around and chat more, if you like, of course.
<cqfd93> for me, it's time to go to bed
<hannie> the meeting is closed, but I want to say to all editors: thank you all for the work you are doing for the manual
<mkani> All I can say is that it's been great to be a part of this experience, learnt a lot
<cqfd93> Bye everybody!
<godbyk> Thanks for coming, everyone!
<TonyP> bye all
<mkani> My pleasure and sorry for the lt connection
<hannie> Good night/afternoon to everyone.
<c7p> bye all !
<mkani> Bye
<c7p> i'ld like to stay but i'm very tired
<jconnett> bye!
<mkani> anyone left
<c7p> good night !
<CarstenG> ok, see you all
<CarstenG> good night.
<mkani> Thanks for all the support that everyone gave
<hannie> bye everyone
<mkani> bye all
