#ubuntu-artwork 2005-11-28
<derek[] > Hallo
#ubuntu-artwork 2005-11-30
<lllmanulll> Hi guys
<lllmanulll> I'd like to have your opinions/advice about something
<lllmanulll> I'm designing icons for a new "session window" in Ubuntu
<lllmanulll> It'll have Reboot, Shut Down, Log Out and Hibernate
<lllmanulll> Already have some propositions here :
<lllmanulll> http://www.manucornet.net/GNOME/session_icons/
<lllmanulll> Look mainly at the "Tango" part
<lllmanulll> i'm searching for ideas : what symbol to use for Log Out and Hibernate ?
<derek[] > your "version 1" illustrations look fine, except for the reboot
<lllmanulll_> derek[] : What about the "recycle" type reboot ?
<lllmanulll_> Third from the left
<lllmanulll_> Actually, the first three are three different versions of "reboot" :)
<derek[] > yeah, that one is better
<lllmanulll_> Great :)
<derek[] > and do you necessarily have to use the glossy 3D look?
<derek[] > I'd rather prefer simple
<lllmanulll_> Well, I try to comply with the Tango style ?
<derek[] > yeah
<lllmanulll_> Oh, if you talk about the "Version 1" part, I probably won't use it
<derek[] > out of these two, go for the "tango"
<lllmanulll_> Right, I agree :)
<derek[] > I mean
<derek[] > use the illustrations of ver.1
<lllmanulll_> And what would you use for "Hibernate" and "Reboot" ?
<derek[] > except for the 'reboot'
<lllmanulll_> Ah, I see
<derek[] > the 'refresh' kind
<lllmanulll_> Well, I was told that the "Zzz" part wouldn't be clear to everybody
<derek[] > but if you can come up with a new idea, be better. Because this one looks like the 'refresh' in browsers :)
<lllmanulll_> People who don't necessarily have a "cartoon" or "comics" culture
<derek[] > right
<lllmanulll_> Right, but it's color is particular, and it will be used in a very different context
<derek[] > but you're not going to use only icons, are you?
<derek[] > there'll be text accompanying it?
<lllmanulll_> Yes yes
<lllmanulll_> I think so
<derek[] > then it shouldn't be a problem
<lllmanulll_> probably just under the icons
<lllmanulll_> right
<klepas> ah, hello
<derek[] > hallo klepas 
<klepas>  how's it going?
<derek[] > gut, danke
<derek[] > und dir?
<klepas> naja. es geht so :)
<derek[] > :)
<derek[] > naja - ?
<klepas> so-so
<klepas> :)
<artnay> isn't ZzZ more like standby icon?
* klepas uses irssi. no icons. plain text in the cli. :)
<derek[] > :)
<artnay> I mean, when one goes to sleep, he's still active although he is not "active"
<artnay> just as when computer goes to standby mode
<artnay> but hibernation should be though differently
<artnay> +t
<artnay> maybe the door theme (logout) could be modified to fit as hibernation icon? or then something totally different
<artnay> but if two doors is too much, then neither of those shouldn't be used (door nor ZzZ)
<artnay> better suggestions are always welcome, right? ;)
<artnay> and to the top of all, that would go against the principle to not have text on icons (which I don't agree _that_ much)
<artnay> btw, is humility still under development?
<klepas> Not in its original forms
<klepas> It is being re-named
<klepas> with new things added
<klepas> talk to Andyfitz
<artnay> I'd like to see it developed more openly, just like tango
<artnay> oxygen icons look pretty neat, but the development isn't as open as it is with tango
<klepas> moin
<derek[] > 'humility' ?
<klepas> what about humility :)
<derek[] > what is it? :)
<derek[] > I know what it is in English :P
<derek[] > what were you two talking about?
<derek[] > is it some theme?
<klepas> no idea
<derek[] > o.o
<derek[] > you got no idea about it and still you were talking about it?
<derek[] > <artnay> btw, is humility still under development?
<derek[] > <klepas> Not in its original forms
<derek[] > <klepas> It is being re-named
<derek[] > <klepas> with new things added
<klepas> yea
<klepas> that was last i heard about it
<klepas> Humility is an icon set
<derek[] > k
<klepas> I'm off
<klepas> it's 2:45 AM here
<klepas> nite
#ubuntu-artwork 2005-12-01
<lllmanulll> hey, anyone here ?
#ubuntu-artwork 2005-12-02
<os2mac> someone around?
<artnay> os2mac: sure.
<os2mac> I have been trying for several days to get someone to send me a copy of the offical background for ubuntu... I am using kubuntu and am getting tired of blue...
<artnay> os2mac: hah, I get the point. wait a sec
<artnay> are you sure you want the default bg? it's a bit messy, well, at least I think so
<artnay> http://art.ubuntu.com/
<os2mac> I have looked on there and don't see the default
<artnay> if you can't find any reasonable bg from there, I could send the original one to you
<os2mac> that is what I am looking for... I have all the ones I like from there but I like the original...
<os2mac> could you please.
<os2mac> os2mac at gmail dot com
<artnay> umh
<artnay> you want 4:3 to 16:9?
<artnay> 4:3 or 16:9, I stand corrected (by myself) ;)
<os2mac> 16;9
<os2mac> I have a widescreen laptop
<artnay> http://users.evtek.fi/~jirig/ - there you have both of them, warty*
<artnay> and some other ubuntu bgs
<os2mac> thank you.... nice cats
<artnay> umh, yeah. should upload some new photos.
<artnay> AUC needs new stuff
<artnay> should upload the default breezy bg to AUC
<artnay> why on earth it's not there :o
<os2mac> nor is the default kubuntu stuff....
<artnay> yeah, artwork team should get organized asap. there's not much on the lists either :/
#ubuntu-artwork 2005-12-03
<artnay> hello
<derek[] > hi
<artnay> I'm creating a long todo list
<derek[] > for?
<artnay> for artwork team
<derek[] > dapper?
<artnay> yep
<derek[] > ok
<artnay> Usplash: Improvements coming, consider 24-bit picture and 16 colour fallback picture, GDM Theme: ??, GNOME Splash: this shouldn't be neede anymore as GNOME 2.14 tries to minimize the loading time to "none", still fallback should be provided, backgrounds: create/choose nice set of backgrounds and GDM theme to fit with bg, Font: Consider font change?, Iconset: Humility under development, probably a name change coming with new icons. Think about Tango, 
<artnay> what about GRUB theme? Calendar?
<artnay> make AUC known, it's not listed anywhere on ubuntulinux.org or ubuntuforums.org
<artnay> what else?
<artnay> let's gather things up, wiki is a fucking mess
<derek[] > i see
<derek[] > well I haven't run Ubuntu yet :(
<derek[] > still waiting for getting some new hardware before I can install it
<artnay> what's preventing you?
<derek[] > but I'm a designer, and am up for help to Ubuntu
<artnay> Ubuntu's artwork needs help, it's not very well organized at the moment
<derek[] > i'm waiting for a new computer on which i can run linux
<artnay> artwork team
<derek[] > i see
<artnay> that's the beauty of GNU/Linux, you can run it allmost on any computer ;9
<derek[] > are you one of the organisers?
<artnay> no I'm not
<derek[] > k
<artnay> I've been watching this for months now
<artnay> nothing seems to happen
<artnay> mailings lists and this channel are pretty dead
<artnay> and I'm tired, I want to see something to happen
<derek[] > okay
<derek[] > I must first be in Ubuntu and see the present artwork in use
<derek[] > cuz when you say: <artnay> what about GRUB theme? Calendar?
<derek[] > I've not yet seen it
<artnay> there's no GRUB theme currently AFAIK
<artnay> calendar should be set for one release cycle
<artnay> that is six months
<derek[] > which calender?
<artnay> it's a bunch of backgrounds for different months
<artnay> it's a metapackage
<artnay> oh dammit, go install ubuntu and then install ubuntu-calendar ;)
<artnay> ubuntu needs you
<derek[] > :)
<artnay> are you running win?
<artnay> we also should consider how to select the backgrounds/icons/themes that will be included by default
<artnay> there's not much space left on one cd install
<artnay> anybody?
<artnay> I need some help here ;)
<artnay> Danten: 
<Danten> artnay
<artnay> hey
<Danten> hi
<artnay> I'm just gathering a todo list for artwork team, wanna help?
<artnay> here's the current one: http://users.evtek.fi/~jirig/artwork-todo
<Danten> hmm not really sure, Im not part of the team actually
<artnay> I thought I would make it more complete before posting it to lists
<artnay> me neither
<artnay> :)
<Danten> :)
<artnay> but we can still help
<Danten> oki
<artnay> there's ~nothing happening so everyone's input is more than welcome
<artnay> tell me if you have things to add
<Danten> well I'm not really sure what I can do but :)
<artnay> same thing
<Danten> I can't find anything particular to add, the only thing that's needed at the moment is structure so we can assign people to things
<Danten> Which is rather sad as Ubuntu has got al lot of buzz of its artwork (brownish) :)
<Danten> But your plan was to update the wiki?
<artnay> no
<Danten> no?
<artnay> my plan is to make that list as complete as I can (maybe with help of others), then post it to mailing list
<artnay> then we should clean the wiki page
<artnay> add all those topics there, links to subcategories
<Danten> ahh, then I understand
<Danten> well, I start scanning the forums for stuff
<artnay> that's why I'm asking for help in here :)
<artnay> bachler: hey
<bachler> hey
<artnay> bachler: do you want to help?
<bachler> yeah, if i can
<artnay> ok, take a look at this http://users.evtek.fi/~jirig/artwork-todo and tell what to add/modify
<bachler> kk
<artnay> I've heard there's a program for GNOME that fetces stuff from art.gnome.org
<artnay> do you happen to know the name?
<artnay> I'm not a GNOME person :o
<bachler> http://www.gnomefiles.org/app.php?soft_id=889
<bachler> ?
<bachler> is that what your thinking about?
<artnay> yeah, I guess that's it
<bachler> ok..
<artnay> thanks
<artnay> do you have any exprience with it?
<artnay> ohhh, what a day for typos
<Danten> hmm me thinking, what about that each version of Ubuntu has it's own personal logo that get used in wallpapers, splashes, screensavers etc.
<artnay> Danten: that's being thought at the mailing list
<bachler> about the artwork-todo, really good work there, putting it all together.. but its kind of hard for me to think of anything more to add right now..
<artnay> wait a sec
<Danten> so then that could be a goal
<artnay> so could GNOME Art be forked to fetch stuff from both art.gnome and art.ubuntu?
<artnay> it's GPL and there's plenty of time left
<bachler> i guess so, yeah..
<bachler> btw, the link for the mousetheme.. it doesnt work for me
<artnay> oh
<artnay> I'll check it out
<bachler> http://www.gnome-look.org/content/show.php?content=19506
<bachler> nice
<artnay> bachler: oh, I thought the link isn't working. so is the theme working?
<artnay> if it would be an ideal world, that todo wouldn't be needed. all that information should be easily available at wiki 
<bachler> when i come to think about it, it would be quite cool if the gnome art program could be froked to fetch stuff for ubuntu, but i really think that the original functionallaty to get themes from art.gnome.org is good to keep..
<artnay> now it's a mess, outdated mess
<artnay> bachler: sure, but they share the same code
<artnay> and what about dupes?
<artnay> well, that needs people to develop it
<bachler> artnay: i cant get the link to work, so i cant get the mouse theme, so i havent tested it
<artnay> let's just try to sum it all up
<artnay> it works for me, odd.
<artnay> are you able to connect www.gnome-look.org ?
<bachler> yeah.. where are u? im in sweden using loopia as dns.. mabye its the thing.. whats the ip of gnome-look?
<artnay> 80.190.240.90, finland
<bachler> oh.. that works
<bachler> strange..
<artnay> it traces through telia to gnome-look.org
<bachler> well, anyway.. im no ruby guru.. but im sure that someone could fix the gnome art program to fetch art from art.ubuntu
<artnay> bachler: yeah, I'm pretty positive on that, too.
<bachler> hmmm, do you have the name of the mouse theme
<artnay> Pinux's Tux Cursors Theme  
<bachler> ok.. ill check that out
<bachler> im kind of busy at the moment.. schoolwork.. 
<artnay> me too, I'm at work. trying to do all these things simultaneously
<bachler> but, regarding the artwork-todo. nice job.. but as i said, i cant really come to think of anything to be added right now.. ill give you a shout if i do
<artnay> GAIM theme?
<artnay> gnome-terminal theme?
<artnay> firefox/thunderbird theme?
<bachler> ill check with some friends at school too
<artnay> it should fit with the default look
<bachler> yeah, a gaim theme would be nice
<bachler> add it, i say! :-D
<artnay> that's one of the reasons why people want to change fx to epiphany
<bachler> fx= firefox?
<bachler> oh,, yeah..
<bachler> mabye a firefox/thunderbird theme would be nice too
<bachler> anymore...
<bachler> xmms?
<bachler> bmp
<Danten> dosen't it exist an ubuntu theme for bmp?
<bachler> yeah, but i dont think its installabel throug apt
<Danten> aa
<artnay> ok, added irssi as well
<bachler> i always (after a fresh install) need to go to like, gnome-look or something to get a nice xmms/bmp skin
<bachler> xchat colors?
<artnay> http://ubuntuforums.org/gallery/showimage.php?i=1374
<bachler> i personally use xchat
<artnay> well I use "ubuntued" theme on irssi ;)
<artnay> I'll add X-Chat as well
<bachler> thats a nice irssi color theme.. maby "port" it to xchat?
<Danten> and then maybe gnome-terminal too
<bachler> yeah.. but how doest that work with ls --color?
<artnay> added
<Danten> have no clue :)
<bachler> hehe,.. i could try to get some work done with this this weekend
<artnay> it's nice to have ideas but there's always a danger that too much of brown here and there makes people to hate it
<artnay> that's the danger to change the default themes of programs
<artnay> but it's an idea, and we're looking for those, right?
<Danten> yepp :)
<artnay> I have to clean that list later today
<bachler> i dont really think that there sould be a change to the default theme, just added themes..
<artnay> if you have links to themes you're talking about, please paste
<artnay> bachler: yeah, maybe we should at least provide an easy way to unify the look of desktop
<artnay> apt-get install foobar
<bachler> yeah, thats kind of what i was looking for i think
<artnay> dapper also needs metapackages for complete themes
<bachler> like ubuntu-artwork
<artnay> mmm, sort of
<bachler> well im no xpert on the apt stuff...
<artnay> it would be to nice to get KDE brownish only with one command :>
<bachler> yeah
<bachler> hmm, i think i need to do some other stuff now.. but. keep up the good work
<bachler> and cya
<Danten> cya
<Danten> a question:
<Danten> SHAPES, Deadline ??, Members ??:
<Danten> - ??
<Danten> whats that?
<artnay> what shapes should be used in metacity decorations, on background, GDM theme etc.
<Danten> a
<artnay> rounded?
<artnay> do we want something like this: http://art.ubuntu.com/backgrounds/ubuntu/64
<artnay> bachler: bye and welcome back ;)
<Danten> so practically shapes and colour is the common direction for artist to go
<artnay> there are some rules already
<artnay> like palettes to use etc.
<Danten> So this goal is like "extended rules for Dapper"?
<Danten> and then we have a new goal for dapper+1
<artnay> I guess the rules at wiki are still for Breezy
<artnay> the whole wiki is Breezy-oriented
<artnay> it's outdated
<artnay> but I guess the same rules apply to Dapper
<Danten> oki
<Danten> hmm thinking again :) how easy is it for an artist to start working on a new installed ubuntu machin? like does he has all programs needed or are they easy to get through apt? (as you can see I have no clue) :)
<artnay> what kind of graphics?
<artnay> vector, pixel, 3d?
<artnay> gimp is there by default (for pixel graphics)
<artnay> inkscape is available from repos (vectors)
<artnay> and then there's maya3d etc. for 3d
<artnay> I'm not familiar with 3d programs
<Danten> well, I thought all kinds of artist (including audio) and that maybe we should make it easy to know which applications to get, maybe with ubuntu art or so
<artnay> well I haven't found a suitable audio editing program yet
<artnay> but you can run some windows stuff using wine
<Danten> ;P
<artnay> it's a shame, I know
<bachler> audacity
<bachler> i use it when i make sampels for tracking music
<artnay> that might work for some people
<Danten> Then maybe that could be a goal to collect a list of good applications that can be recomendated
<artnay> Danten: I don't think that's artwork team's job, talk to documentation team
<Danten> hmm maybe
<artnay> they might give some recommendations at help.ubuntu.com or system -> help
<artnay> or then ubuntuforums should be bookmarked by default ;)
<artnay> "umh, what's this"
<Danten> hehe ^^
<artnay> I'm out of ideas now. It's been a long day and I've nearly finished my work (that's a miracle if you think about what I've been doing here)
<Danten> good :) (not that you are out of ideas but I think you got that ;) )
<artnay> and that's it, I'm off. later guys!
<Danten> later
#ubuntu-artwork 2005-12-04
<artnay> hey guys
<artnay> umh, tango updated. new view-refresh icon x)
<artnay> still I don't get it why the yellow spot is on left side in address-book-new icon
<artnay> every else *-new icon has it on the right side :o
<artnay> derek[] : did you install ubuntu? ;)
<derek[] > hi
<derek[] > no I didn't yet
<derek[] > what is tango?
<artnay> http://tango-project.org/
<derek[] > OK
<derek[] > I'm first learning about FHS: http://www.debian.org/doc/packaging-manuals/fhs/
<derek[] > Here's something that may be useful for you:
<derek[] > http://developer.gnome.org/projects/gup/hig/2.0/icons.html
<artnay> that's GNOME's way to handle icons
<artnay> AndyFitz is developing Humility
<artnay> that should replace the default GNOME set
<artnay> well at least it's supposed to replace, although I don't know how things are at the moment
<derek[] > k
<artnay> ok, I've been updating the todo list: http://users.evtek.fi/~jirig/artwork-todo
<artnay> If dapper gets Debian's GUI installer, artwork team should put some input on it
<klepas> hi you two :)
<artnay> hey klepas 
<lapo> hi there
<artnay> klepas: you're one of the team members, right?
<artnay> lapo: hi
<artnay> ok, lots of new ppl here. care to give comments on this? http://users.evtek.fi/~jirig/artwork-todo
<klepas> artnay: yea, 'so-to-say' :)
<klepas> And more people.
<klepas> Welcome th1nk 
<th1nk> hey
<klepas> [http://users.evtek.fi/~jirig/artwork-todo]  artnay: I'll go over it when I can
<klepas> Thanks for taking the initiative to do this. We really need to get a move on :)
<artnay> I fully agree. I try to make that list as complete as I can (with help of others, credits are there as well), then I'll post it to the mailing list
<klepas> good idea
<klepas> it's getting late on my end
<klepas> well, soon early actually
<klepas> but yea
<klepas> will go over when i find the time
<artnay> we need to solve out what's there now, what we (community) want, how should the changes be done, what's preventing us to do that stuff etc.
<artnay> so if you have information on any of those topics, just keep it coming here
<klepas> what's preventing us... well that would be laziness :)
<derek[] > Does Ubuntu follow SUS or POSIX?
<artnay> klepas: disorganization
<klepas> And that too
<artnay> derek[] : ubuntu is based on linux and GNU, now isn't it? ;)
<derek[] > yeah
<derek[] > and linux is POSIX complaint?
<derek[] > compliant*
<derek[] > (anyway, its offtopic)
<artnay> well I don't know how compliant it is, haven't read IEEE's / RMS's standard *g*
<artnay> I suppose it's quite native though
<derek[] > I think I've read linux's relation to POSIX in the past.. not sure
<artnay> bachler: I updated the list a bit
<bachler> oh
<bachler> im @ school now.. so i cant look right now
<bachler> just got my xchat config to schoolcomputer
<bach_skol> there..
<klepas> guys
<klepas> http://www.gnome-look.org/content/show.php?content=31941
<artnay> it's simple and classy, I like it
<artnay> although it still has "GDM flaws" (in point of view of windows user)
<artnay> what's that Actions button? for init 6?
<artnay> user name and password should separated into two different sections and there should be "OK" button
<klepas> it's just a mockup
<klepas> :)
<artnay> I'm not saying it should be like that by default, but it should be possible. that way migration from windows to ubuntu would be a bit easier
<klepas> make it reality, and improve it
<artnay> I don't know if it's even possible with the current version of GDM
<lapo> only one field for username and passowrd is better imho
<artnay> lapo: yeah, when you get used to it
<artnay> but image how many support calls help desk would get only for that... don't overestimate people :P
<lapo> you always need to get used to "new" things
<lapo> the support call came for more serieous issue, like not complete vfs support
<artnay> lapo: I'm talking about ppl who only surf the web and do some office jobs
<artnay> like 40-year-old female secretary who doesn't even know what OS is
<artnay> I prefer the GDM way, but as an option the MS would be good
<artnay> ok, remove that female part. It could be a male as well.
<klepas> well i'm off
<klepas> getting earlier and earlier in the morning =)
<klepas> need the sleep
<artnay> bye
<klepas> btw, lapo: nice accessories icon. great work.
<artnay> lapo: what was klepas referring to?
<artnay> would you like to show it? :)
<lapo> it'svtigert work
<lapo> lirj  http://xoomer.virgilio.it/bat/Icons
<lapo> lurk, one key offset :-)
<lapo> wait, it's in http://xoomer.virgilio.it/bat/tmp
<artnay> hmm, /Icons is a mix of tango and some GNOME influenced icons, right?
<artnay> are you doing icons for tango project?
<lapo> yes some
<artnay> ok, I really like those media icons
<artnay> replaced the ones I had with those
<artnay> thanks
<lapo> these are the current tango media icons
<lapo> they need some love btw
<artnay> yeah, I noticed they are the CVS icons. kind of blurry, although I might fcuk something up
<artnay> what kind of love are planning? colours? shapes?
<lapo> I like the shapes, I think I'll plastify the whole set again
<artnay> ok. I added a few links to todo lists, mainly to icons section
<artnay> ok, to-do list has been changed. I was chatting with mjg59 about Usplash, it's improving
<artnay> http://users.evtek.fi/~jirig/artwork-todo
#ubuntu-artwork 2006-11-27
<troy_s> greets msikma
<msikma> Hello Troy
<msikma> What's up?
<msikma> How's Ubun2 going?
<elkbuntu> it's still spelled without numbers, for start
<msikma> Ubun2 is a design project for Ubuntu
<elkbuntu> ah, cool
* elkbuntu apologises, she's semi-allergic to words with numbers in them ;)
<lapo> hi
* Starting logfile irclogs/ubuntu-artwork.log
<viller> hi
<viller> what's happening with ubuntu-art?
<viller> nothing is going on for feisty
<kwwii> I guess it is still too early to tell
<viller> why too early
<viller> they should say something
<kwwii> sure, I agree, but since nothing has happened it must be too early for someone's planning
<viller> the ubuntu-marketing list (which I'm also subscribed to) is having conversations all the time
<viller> probably the developers list too
<kwwii> sure
<kwwii> my guess is that the problems during the last cycle still need to be worked out
<viller> ok
<kwwii> but I must add that even though Kubuntu artwork (which I did) worked out great and on time, there is also little happening on that front
<troy_s> msikma
<troy_s> ping
<kwwii> hi troy
<kwwii> how's life?
<troy_s> Busy as hell.
<troy_s> Yourself?
* PingunZ greets kwwii and troy_s :)
<troy_s> Pingunz... sorry bro... didn't see you there.
<PingunZ> no problemo :)
<kwwii> hi PingunZ
<PingunZ> kwwii, Will you be the kubuntu Feisty artist ? :)
<troy_s> The design for all buntu's is still completely hooped.
<PingunZ> Can I get some detailt about that ?
<PingunZ> :)
<PingunZ> I wanna see that starbuck's work ..  :)
<kwwii> PingunZ: not sure...I've talked to sabdfl about it but until now do not have a contract
<PingunZ> Hmm
<PingunZ> Before I say mean things about sabfl .. can I see some starbuck work ? :)
<troy_s> oh crap pingunz.  did i not ship you some of their design work?
<PingunZ> nowp
<PingunZ> How bad is it ? :p
<troy_s> here is a taster...
<troy_s> lol.  it is some of the best design of late 20th
* PingunZ downloads :)
<PingunZ> troy_s, No, I mean .. icons .. or wallpapers .. or dunno
<PingunZ> linux art
<PingunZ> troy_s, Has he ever made any of those ?
<troy_s> that is a team that ended up with that packaging.
<troy_s> there is no 'he' in good design teams.
<troy_s> although there are often folks at the higher end who get the accolades.
<PingunZ> So .. is there any visible linux art online ? :D
<msikma> Hello troy_s
<msikma> How's Ubuntu art going? I've not paid attention to this channel for quite some t ime
<PingunZ> msikma, I was just asking the same thing ;)
<msikma> hehe
<PingunZ> msikma, Looks like Starbuck is taking over .. don't ask me more :)
<msikma> I have worked on some art but very little. And I still need to make the Metacity/widgets theme design into a real, working version.
<PingunZ> you should ask troy_s about it .. looks like he knows more
<msikma> I really don't have the time to learn all about it, unfortunately; at least not now. It seems like a slightly esoteric system. Maybe I'll post an advertisement so someone can do it for me and be the co-author of the theme.
<troy_s> there is bugger all
<troy_s> regarding official ubuntu artwork
<troy_s> it is all in the hands of cliff
<msikma> Cliff?
<PingunZ> msikma, He seems to be the _art_ team now ;)
<troy_s> he is
<kwwii> examples of his work?
<troy_s> he is the guy who did that tremendous job on dapper
<PingunZ> I keep asking about it ..
<troy_s> www.spacejunkdesign.com
<PingunZ> What does tremendous mean ? :)
<_MMA_> Hi guys. Does Andrew Fitzsimon hang out here? Id like to chat with him about the "Ubuntu-Title" font.
<troy_s> yes he does from time to time _MMA_
<PingunZ> rofl .. I'm stuck in his flash movie
<troy_s> its the last flash
<PingunZ> can I get a link to the real homepage ? :)
<troy_s> you will need a proprietary system to see it or the beta linux
<_MMA_> troy_s: Whats his nick so I can keep an eye out.
<PingunZ> I only see his picture
<msikma> That site of his looks okay. Not anything great.
<troy_s> _mma_ sorry i cant remember, it has his last name in it
<msikma> I don't really like this kind of site, though, so I may be biased. I don't find the design thrilling.
<troy_s> msikma -- its tripe.
<_MMA_> Ok. Thank you.
<PingunZ> Can someone like .. link me to a picture of his site .. or send a a screenshot of some of his work ? :D
* PingunZ has flash probs
<troy_s> most of it is spec work pingunz
<troy_s> of shoes
<troy_s> with a little that it looks like a friend of his used.
<kwwii> cool stuff
<msikma> PingunZ: sure
<msikma> just a sec
<PingunZ> k thanks
<msikma> http://gamingw.net/pubaccess/28695/Picture%204_2.png
<PingunZ> Nice ..
<PingunZ> But does he have any *linux* art ?
<troy_s> that's a good image.
<troy_s> pingunz:  it is kind of irrelevant.
<msikma> troy_s: I don't do that JPEG rubbish :) just the real thing, 32-bit PNG!
<troy_s> chances are, if sab is going to hire someone worth their salt (and I don't mean to hint that 'cliff' is _the_ guy) he will have probably zero linux experience.
<msikma> Well, that can be a good thing too. But I sincerely believe that someone with a good amount of experience with the system is a better pick.
<troy_s> but until sab accepts that no one 'worth their salt' will put up with micromanaging when it comes to art and design, it will repeat the same cycles.
<troy_s> msikma -- certainly pros and cons to both.
<troy_s> ultimately, it needs to be a design lead.  not a single solo warrior type.
<troy_s> someone who is attentive to contemporary design (outside of gimmicky operating system hell) and a formalized education in design.
<PingunZ> look at kw.wii .. he made the suse art .. as a singe art warrior .. and he got promoted to a *herO*
<troy_s> hey look at pingunz
<troy_s> that image has liebniz in it
<PingunZ> rofl
<troy_s> lol
<kwwii> lol
<troy_s> we were talking about it yesterday with his theory of language that operates at the speed of thought / light.
* PingunZ is off to bed
<kwwii> I wish
<PingunZ> night all
<msikma> Oh, troy_s, take a look here: http://www.yomaraugusto.com/ - this is a Brazillian designer who came to work at our studio recently, he's got amazing typography stuff.
<troy_s> that's the thing
<troy_s> a good lead will know that linework, typography etc, are all different domains.
<msikma> He's teaching us calligraphy courses
<troy_s> looking now... is it bloody flash?
<msikma> Yes, sorry. The site is rubbish, he doesn't know anything about the web. Some friend of his made it.
<troy_s> hold on loading a shite 32 bit browser.
<troy_s> wow...
<troy_s> is it all his?
<troy_s> that mixing of sketch with illustration is pretty po mo
<troy_s> i like that quite a bit.
<msikma> haha, maybe a bit
<msikma> Yeah, all of it is his.
<msikma> It's really amazing to watch him grab a calligraphy pen and jot down beautiful typefaces as if it's his handwriting
<troy_s> his sketchbooks are nice too.
<troy_s> i like that styling... that is that really cutting edge organic feel.
<troy_s> contemporary organics.
<troy_s> quite beautiful really.
<troy_s> wow...
<troy_s> his illustration is quite amazing.
<msikma> I like the brownone sketch book. You can get a good view of his calligraphy stuff from it.
<troy_s> msikma -- under image the 'illustration' link
<troy_s> very good work
<troy_s> gee no shocker
<troy_s> masters in fine art
<troy_s> from the nederlands.
<msikma> from Brazil :)
<troy_s> impressive stuff
<troy_s> yes but his ma is from the home of rem
<msikma> I'm glad you like it.
<troy_s> actually, the studio you are grunting in has some pretty talented folks.  the hr department knows what to look for on a resume.
<msikma> We don't have a hr department. :P
<troy_s> well
<troy_s> the head cheeses who are doing the hiring then... how does that sound?
<msikma> Including interns, there's 9 of us.
<troy_s> they are hiring folks with a good compliment of ability and education assuring that they will be on the edge of contemporary design.
<troy_s> so this fellow is one of the 9?
<msikma> Yep
<troy_s> 'superficy' is quite a nice photo too...
<troy_s> latrec black is well done too.
<troy_s> sheesh...
<msikma> Very inspiring to look at a good portfolio.
<troy_s> well it is inspiring to look at work that is innovative
<msikma> He told me that Brazilian design is essentially much like German design.
<troy_s> emily carr has some very talented students over here.
<msikma> Is that where you spent college?
<troy_s> no
<troy_s> i have a few aquaints who gradded from there.
<troy_s> the 'bizz' cover on his page is impressive.
<troy_s> i have to say i love yoma's stylings.  right up my alley.
<troy_s> wow -- looks like he did a mercado release or was involved.
<troy_s> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emily_carr -- that's the artist who's name the school is founded in.
<troy_s> bersace -- ltns bro.
<bersace> troy_s: hi ! :D
<coz_> hello all
#ubuntu-artwork 2006-11-28
<sittisal> hey
<sittisal> hi troy_s ...
<lapo> hi
<sittisal> ehy
<totalwormage> well, what i wanted to say is that there is no background-colour is specified on the art.ubuntu.com site
<totalwormage> so the site looks like: http://worm.shanara.nl/Screenshot.png
<totalwormage> (i know my theme sucks by the way :p)
<lizardking> Hello folks!
<lizardking> I'm lizardking
<lizardking> I here beacuse I told with Pingunz
<lizardking> What about the new Feisty Artwork=
<lizardking> is it dropped to some special private designer?
<totalwormage> :o
<lizardking> troy_s: plz, tell me...
<PingunZ> troy_s, I told him about Starbuck .. he was about to propose the OranSoda themeteam
<troy_s> greets
<troy_s> hello sorry
<troy_s> now remember
<troy_s> i have gleaned this through limited discussions with mark.
<troy_s> The 'anchors' -- the wallpaper / splash / etc
<troy_s> are all going to be designed by Cliff.
<lizardking> troy_s: Hello! does not matter
<troy_s> I believe he wanted them done early
<troy_s> but again, what mark wants and what happens are two different things as he has been known to change his course mid stream ;)
<lizardking> troy_s: understand, who is Cliff?
<troy_s> Cliff is the fellow who "designed" the Dapper look.
<troy_s> in conjunction with sab.
<troy_s> (Mark == sabdfl)
<lizardking> troy_s: ok
<troy_s> So don't expect style guidelines, palettes, etc.
<lizardking> troy_s: ah, cool mark shuttleworth == sabdfl?
<troy_s> What will likely happen is a lump of work will be dumped into Feisty, and those that are interested will be able to 'flesh' out the rest of the bits.  If sab approves of the extra bits, then he will include them.
<PingunZ> lizardking, yes
<troy_s> And pingunz, that starbucks sample i sent you was merely an example of solid design.  not a look.
<troy_s> :)
<troy_s> that is well thought out stylistic and communicative design.
<lizardking> troy_s: understand. So my theme is pending from sab approval?
<PingunZ> yes
<troy_s> lizardking -- i suggest that outside 'themes' will probably be accepted with little issue
<lizardking> troy_s: Can i view the  starbucks sample too?
<troy_s> at some point
<troy_s> with enough pushing.
<troy_s> last cycle all of the proposed themes made it into the repos, so i wouldn't see any reason why it would change.
<troy_s> that said, once again, the buntu directionality leaves a little to be desired.
<troy_s> and things change at any moment.  ;)
<troy_s> wow... i didn't realize that elkbuntu was melissa.
<troy_s> greets elk.
<lizardking> troy_s: understand...
<lizardking> troy_s: I wanto to understand antoher thing..But the official ubuntu  artowork is done in private and relased when it is fineshed by  starbucks or we can see gradually the progess?
<lizardking> ops. I write too 'o' in the sentence..sorry for my poor digital English... ;)
<troy_s> LORD
<troy_s> Ok.
<troy_s> Let me fix something
<troy_s> Your statement is completely incorrect.
<troy_s> A) The official artwork is being completed by a fellow by the name of Cliff.
<troy_s> B) It will be completed behind closed doors in conjunction with Shuttleworth's 'design' beliefs.
<troy_s> C) It has nothing to do with starbucks.  *sigh*.  Re -read that... nothing to do with Starbucks.  NOTHING.
<troy_s> Cliff is an independent fellow -- if you want to look at his site, I believe it is www.spacejunkdesign.com
<troy_s> Lizardking -- is that clear.
<lizardking> troy_s: I'm reading..
<lizardking> troy_s: now it's clear!
<troy_s> It will be a lump of stuff that arrives completed
<troy_s> based on discussions that cliff and mark go through.
<troy_s> (after having gone through extensive discussions towards the end of Edgy, I can tell you that it is pretty pointless)
<lizardking> troy_s: ok
<troy_s> but ultimately, all of this won't have any impact on your theme :)
<troy_s> so keep plugging away, it might be wise to start a wiki page with screenshots and tarballs.
<troy_s> that way it doesn't exist in your head and someone might be able to help you.
<lizardking> troy_s: fiuuuu, now I understand everything. I already have done the wiki page
<troy_s> Good stuff.
<lizardking> lizardking: thank for you everything, troy_s!
<troy_s> no problem lizardking
<troy_s> again
<troy_s> i don't pretend to speak with 'exclusive knowledge'
<troy_s> it is only information that i have managed to wrestle out of the rock
<troy_s> ;)
<lizardking> troy_s: ehehe okay
<troy_s> wow full house
<troy_s> greetings all -- including the unfamilar faces.
<MacSlow> Greetings everybody!
<MacSlow> sabdfl suggested to me to get in contact with you folks for some final hint/polishing-tweaks for my spec on the face-browser https://wiki.ubuntu.com/FaceBrowserLogin (please have a look at the two mockups further down that page)
<MacSlow> while do not intend to become directly involved with the Ubuntu-Artwork team I still want to coordinate and streamline the stuff I do with the general themes/styles you people put into feisty
<PingunZ> MacSlow, That'll be like *impossible* to realise
<MacSlow> PingunZ, what... "working together" or the stuff I show in the mockups?
<PingunZ> haha
<PingunZ> the mockups ;)
<PingunZ> Those faces .. you mean to click them so the username is selected ?
<MacSlow> PingunZ, leave that "possible or not"-question to me
<MacSlow> yes... I know my way around OpenGL, gtk+, GLSL and the like... I've a pretty clear vision how to implement that
<MacSlow> the only "issue" will be if it will be accepted upstream... but I am in contact with gdm's maintainer at Sun already and also want to help him with a few bugs... in order to make it more likely to accept my bling-ification
<PingunZ> MacSlow, So you want to replace those faces by the user's display picture ? and then the user can click his face and enter his pass ?
<PingunZ> But .. you want those display pictures to look just like in your mockups ?
<MacSlow> yes that's the general idea... but actually the user does not even have to click... just moving the mouse will be enough...
<PingunZ> If you realise that you'll be a hero
<PingunZ> :)
<MacSlow> if people have set an login-picture it will be displayed... if not a fallback image will be used of course.
<PingunZ> hmm
<PingunZ> Can I add another idea
<PingunZ> ? :)
<MacSlow> the fading out stuff and the glow stuff will be some OpenGL-effects (probably GLSL-based), but I'll probably have to provide some alternative render-paths for non-shader capable hw so it doesn't look too dull
<MacSlow> PingunZ, shoot... what's on your mind?
<PingunZ> MacSlow, What about somekind of throbber that replaces the gnome splash ..
<PingunZ> the throbber is located on the GDM once the user has succesfully logged in
<MacSlow> hm... that's not part of the FaceBorwser spec...
<PingunZ> Well .. It would be part of a *smooth* gdm ? :)
<MacSlow> but... the code that will come form my work can easily be leveraged for something like this later on
<PingunZ> Just drop the gnome-splash and include it in the GDM
<PingunZ> just think about it :)
<MacSlow> depending how fast I can get the face-browser stuff implemented I'm open to futher bling-ification in feisty
<MacSlow> part of what you're asking sounds a bit like the whole "consistent login"-experience (seamless moving from usplash->gdm->actual gnome-session)
<MacSlow> but that's a differnt spec
<PingunZ> Oh
<MacSlow> I think that's the spec for it https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UnifiedLoginUnlock
<PingunZ> I also taught about something vista-ish .. like *fade* to black  and then *fade* into your gnome-session once everything is loaded :)
<MacSlow> that would be part of the latter spec I believe
<PingunZ> ok :)-
<PingunZ> Well.. those are just some ideas I had :)
<MacSlow> all of this was talked about at UDS three weeks ago
<MacSlow> the unified login/unlock screen (e.g. user-switching) is a bit more involved
<MacSlow> there are some issues with Xorg making certain things we would like to see very hard
<andreasn> ! most important spec this release!
<MacSlow> hey andreasn
<andreasn> hey MacSlow
<MacSlow> andreasn: I had no idea you're hanging out here too :)
<MacSlow> andreasn, I thought you "distro-affiliation is more fedora-ish" :)
<andreasn> well, apparently I'm hanging out everywhere. :)
<andreasn> yes, I hang out in #fedora-art as well
<MacSlow> andreasn, well you're a wicked pixel/vector-pusher... you better hangout everywhere art-related :)
<MacSlow> so people... if you feel to put some more polish/visual tweaks into the mockups (I can provide the .xcf files) then please tell me so.
<MacSlow> Should I subscribe a dedicated mailing list for that?
<MacSlow> I just want to get my stuff in line with the artwork planned for feisty
<MacSlow> if you all think everything is fine and dandy already the better and move my  hacking to full force on it
<andreasn> MacSlow: speaking of the login-stuff, why do I have to enter my name every time I want to log in when I'm the only user on the system anyway?
<MacSlow> andreasn, because you're not really the only one :)
<PingunZ> andreasn, there is the root user too
<MacSlow> there are a lot more... ok... most of them are not really allowed to login via gdm (mostly for security-reasons), but that stuff is a bit further down the stack in gdm (probably PAM) and I'm not touching those areas.
<PingunZ> indeed :)
<MacSlow> aside from that if my patch will touch to much security-sensitive areas it will be more difficult to more things upstream afterwards.
<andreasn> oh yes, that root dude :)
<PingunZ> hehe
<MacSlow> I made sure all my ideas are as minimalistic in their "intrusional"-nature as possible
<PingunZ> MacSlow, Maybe a final idea .. why don't you put the user images horizontal ?
<MacSlow> from a visual design perspective "lines going from bottom left to top right" are conceived as being "positive"
<MacSlow> thus I chose this arrangement
<MacSlow> the first mockup also has a ring-like appeal to it... which I like a bit better than the plain straight one in the second mockup
<MacSlow> I'll subscribe to the ubuntu-art mailing-list to ask there too.
<PingunZ> Hmm .. I'd really like to see a mockup of it when it's horizontal .. I'm pretty sure it'll look good :)
<PingunZ> Btw .. instead of the ugly panel at the botom I'm pretty sure you are inventive enough to work something more creative out :)
<PingunZ> Like .. an analog clock .. or just no computername .. or buttons, instead of the *einstellungen*
<andreasn> MacSlow: why does it have a Name: field?
<andreasn> http://macslow.thepimp.net/shots/face-browser-mockup-1.png
<PingunZ> I was just wondering that too :)
<andreasn> so I can edit it later and make it say andreasnn after I selected myself
<MacSlow> because there are people that still like to type (even though they want cool looks)
<andreasn> and then I will fail to log in
<andreasn> what? are you serious?
<PingunZ> MacSlow, maybe implement somekind of Alt+tab feature to switch users :)
<MacSlow> the behaviour is like this... if you move the mouse to the left or right screen-edge the images will scroll (implicitly inserting the user-name of the user-photo in the middle) and you can just enter your passowrd
<PingunZ> and make it go smoooth :)
<MacSlow> but you will also be able to just click in the name-field and enter the username (while the faces will scroll the the next most likely match)
<PingunZ> yes .. but you can also just click windows .. though a lot of ppl use alt+tab
<PingunZ> just some ideas :)
<MacSlow> hm... I'm not sure Alt-Tab is obvious for this kind of interface
<PingunZ> Just think about it :)
<MacSlow> people will see what happens when they move the mouse...
<MacSlow> so that will be "communicated" right away... and then people are used to click in widgets to make them active
<PingunZ> and also make sure the name field is only selected when ppl really click the field ..
<MacSlow> sure
<PingunZ> So they won't make it andreasnn ;)
<PingunZ> But I'm out .. cya
<PingunZ> nice idea btw ;)
<MacSlow> andreasn, indeed there are people that like good looks but still prefer to type...
* MacSlow raises hand
<MacSlow> :)
<kwwii>  hi MacSlow ... get any response from KDE people about lowfat yet?
<MacSlow> kwwii, I talked with some KDE-artists at UDS... but nothing specifically  yet
<MacSlow> for myself I want to get lowfat into KDE (konquereor) too after I did add it to nautilus
<kwwii> hehe, yeah...that was me that you talked to :p
<MacSlow> but the lowfat works of that magnitude is still a bit in the future
<MacSlow> kwwii, ah... which of the three KDE-artists are you?
<kwwii> the bald old fat one :p
<MacSlow> ah ok :)
<kwwii> lol
<kwwii> I talked to a couple of people about it actually....I'll try to round up some people to look into the idea
<MacSlow> well I have not yet exposed my KDE-related plans in public and want to keep it that way until I can for sure say I'll start to work on it by this and that date
<kwwii> sure, I can understand that
<MacSlow> kwwii, that sounds like a good first approach
<kwwii> cool
<MacSlow> I want to keep it in a way compiz is done
<MacSlow> be as desktop-neutral as possible and provide "hooks" to get it into gnome and kde
<kwwii> sounds like a lot of work, but you have to start somewhere ;-)
<MacSlow> kwwii, sure
<nysosym> hi all
<nysosym> MacSlow: i love your GDM idea :)
<MacSlow> thx
<nysosym> is this really possible?
<MacSlow> you would not believe what funky stuff you can do with OpenGL
<MacSlow> it will be hard work but in general it is doable
<nysosym> sure, but is this possible without huge changes in GDM?
<MacSlow> hm... well I try to make it a un-intrusive as human-possible :)
<MacSlow> the patch itself will be larger... but I'll try to keep the "entry-points" as small as possible
<nysosym> hehe very nice, and we need a new transition from login to the desktop, no cube and no fade, an other "new" effect :)
<nysosym> hi mahtava_matt
<mahtava_matt> hi
<nysosym> hi hejsa
<hejsa> Hi
<hejsa> Anything cool going on in here?
<andreasn> MacSlow: yeah, whatever, I guess I've read too much Cooper of late
<MacSlow> andreasn, "Cooper"?
<andreasn> Alan Cooper
<MacSlow> andreasn, to what kind of books does this boild down?
<andreasn> About Face, Inmates etc.
<andreasn> interface design books
<MacSlow> andreasn, I honestly never read anything like that... I mainly go like "I would love it, if my computer would do this and that in such a way."
<andreasn> ah, yes
<andreasn> well, I think it's going to be nice, much better than now
<MacSlow> andreasn, maybe I could vent my ideas a bit better if I read such books
<hejsa> What is going to be nice
<andreasn> MacSlow's face browser
<hejsa> eeeeh?
<MacSlow> and my new backflips (non-tucked)
<MacSlow> hejsa, patience
<hejsa> :)
<hejsa> Actually i just joined a couple of channels here on freenode, its the standard network in gnome-xchat
<andreasn> MacSlow: anyway, keep up the cool work
<MacSlow> hejsa, irc.freenode.org is a good place for OpenSource-related project-channels
<MacSlow> andreasn, as always... share and enjoy :)
<hejsa> MacSlow: i know, i've always been on freenode, but never in any ubuntu channels
<MacSlow> andreasn, btw... may I ask you to be part of my "fan-club" for the ubuntu-council meeting to help pimp my application for becoming an official ubuntu-member? (date not scheduled yet... have a look at this page https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CommunityCouncilAgenda)
<hejsa> So what is this channel for, besides talking about random "cool" stuff :)
<MacSlow> well it's about artwork (themes, wallpapers, icons, "looks") being part of releases of ubuntu
<andreasn> MacSlow: can I do that? I'm not a member myself
<hejsa> MacSlow: what is this project you are talking about, something you would like to show
<MacSlow> andreasn, I just read the irc-session log on Jono's intro about "How to become an ubuntu-memeber"... bringing "upstream" people as pimping-support is legit too
<andreasn> ah
<andreasn> will do
<MacSlow> hejsa, either have a look at my homepage http://macslow.thepimp.net or at my page on the ubuntu-wiki https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Macslow
<MacSlow> andreasn, thx
<hejsa> MacSlow: Thanks
<hejsa> MacSlow: Looks pretty, im looking forward to try your lowfat
<andreasn> MacSlow: another thought about the face-browser thing
<MacSlow> andreasn, shot
<andreasn> MacSlow: it would be technically possible to make the other users grayscaled using opengl, right?
<MacSlow> yes
<MacSlow> but I wanted to use the "glowing" as an indication for the "selected" user
<andreasn> ah, ok
<MacSlow> but I keep you suggestion in mind
<andreasn> just wanted to check that you have a good way of showing the selected user
<MacSlow> the issue with the grey-scale is that some people have well grey-scale photos for themselves...
<MacSlow> and in this case just coloring the selected photo does not work anymore and may be confusing
<MacSlow> thus I stick with full-color and the glow
<andreasn> good
<andreasn> I didn't notice the glow at first, as I just looked at mockup-1
<andreasn> but I guess it will be easier to spot in-action
<MacSlow> when it's implemented and moving it is more obvious... a still doesn't give the glow justice
<andreasn> what happens if the user haven't defined a pic? does it default to the ones in...uh, where is it now again, /usr/share/pixmaps/photos(?) ?
<andreasn> I totally want to update those btw, the current ones are horrible and scaringly similar to the ones in xp
<MacSlow> a fallback image should be used... I would prefer that to be an SVG because I could create a nice and crisp texture from that
<MacSlow> just for the fact that I like to pimp SVG
<andreasn> /usr/share/pixmaps/faces
<andreasn> ah, yeah, that will probably scale better
<MacSlow> and I want the max. size to be 256x256
<MacSlow> those tiny 96x96 look like crap... even with filtering
<MacSlow> I'm only running into problems on large installations with hundreds of users
<andreasn> well, I could probably try to get some 256x256 images from garretts photo album
<MacSlow> But I've "counter-measures" for those situations too alreay
<MacSlow> andreasn, yeah... do so and feed stuff the me as early as possible
<andreasn> well, I need to update those anyway
<andreasn> as we talked about them during the boston summit
<MacSlow> right now I've used CC-ed photos from flickr and lazily didn't mention the authors of those photos *cough*
<MacSlow> wish I'd been there too
<andreasn> yeah, it would have been nice meeting you again
<andreasn> you're planning on going to Birmingham, right?
<MacSlow> hell yeah
<andreasn> great! then I'll buy you a beer for this face browser
<MacSlow> make that a coke or a drpepper as I don't drink any alcohol :)
<MacSlow> and the effect of alcohol on me would probably only be funny for bystanders :)
<andreasn> oh, yeah, sure
<andreasn> I'll buy you whatever you want to drink
#ubuntu-artwork 2006-11-29
<MacSlow> Ok I'll have sushi then ;)
<troy_s> greets macslow
<MacSlow> troy_s, hi... the Troy from the recent email?!
<troy_s> indeed
<Nivex> I have some of those printable cd stomper labels.  Where might I find some (quasi-)official art to print on them for CDs to give to people?
<lapo> hi
<nysosym> hi there
<kwwii> howdy
<nysosym> very silent here ^^
<nysosym> macslow, any news about the login?
#ubuntu-artwork 2006-11-30
<nysosym> !seen
<nysosym> !seen fschoep
<lapo> hi
<nysosym> hi lapo :)
<nysosym> Re
<nysosym> does anyone have the human color palette here?
<nysosym> wb lapo
<nysosym> do you have the color palette of human?
<lapo> nope
<nysosym> hmmm ok :)
<nysosym> how are u?
<nysosym> hi KaiL :)
<sittisal> re
<sittisal> troy_s: ping
<sittisal> i'm in pause...
<sittisal> so about the ubun2: it should be: usplash+gdm+wallpaper+gtk+icon+metacity+some_gconf_settings (like remove icons from menu)
<sittisal> and about the new metacity you posted, it's impressive with dark-gray-black gtk
<sittisal> more metal less plastic
<sittisal> so we should start propose a range of colors that look good with "wood metacity"
<sittisal> ok i should go
<troy_s> sittisal
<troy_s> here
<troy_s> you still around?
#ubuntu-artwork 2006-12-01
<nysosym> Hi all
<lapo> hi
<Weebit> so where is the artwork
#ubuntu-artwork 2006-12-02
<nysosym> anyone online?
<nysosym> can anyone please have a look on these emblems and tell me his mind?
<nysosym> http://img142.imageshack.us/my.php?image=screenshot1sc0.png
<elkbuntu> they're nice and simple :)
<nysosym> elkbuntu: better as the orange ones in edgy?
<elkbuntu> i wouldnt say better, the orange ones are at least consistant
<nysosym> elkbuntu: sure, but many many people say the usability is decreased with the orange ones..
<elkbuntu> i'm inclined to think that it is more likely a contrast issue rather than a requirement for technicolor
<nysosym> elkbuntu: sure, but the orange color is exactly the same as on the "home" folder and at the "Search for Files" icon
<nysosym> i this way i thought it would be nice to have more emblems like this ones
<elkbuntu> then the color needs to be changed to another color, not twenty other colours
<elkbuntu> remember, this is just my opinion, nysosym
<nysosym> elkbuntu: hmm i should create a poll in the feisty forum?
<elkbuntu> if you want. polls do not really achieve a whole lot though
<nysosym> sure but a poll give me a little overview of the popularity :D
<nysosym> or is there a better way?
<elkbuntu> for a popularity amongst a few, it's probably the quickest way
<nysosym> ok, i think a solution for all people isn't there...
<nysosym> h effraie
<nysosym> *hi
<effraie> hi
<nysosym> how are u?
<nysosym> re
<nysosym> hi andreasn :)
<andreasn> hi nysosym
<nysosym> how are u? :)
<andreasn> I'm fine, pretty tired, been a busy week
<andreasn> but I'm reading a kickass book by Jef Raskin, so that's nice
<andreasn> everything fine with you?
<nysosym> yes always fine :)
<nysosym> andreasn: what do you think about my recreated emblems?
<nysosym> http://img142.imageshack.us/my.php?image=screenshot1sc0.png
<andreasn> do you have these in the smaller sizes as well?
<nysosym> yes these are svgs
<andreasn> how do they look in the nautilus sidebar for example?
<andreasn> no, like aligning the lines to the grid of other sizes than just the 48x48 canvas
<nysosym> looks fine, like the orange ones in edgy
<nysosym> only the colors a new
<nysosym> andreasn: here
<nysosym> http://img164.imageshack.us/my.php?image=screenshot1yb6.png
<andreasn> other than the fact that the shapes reduces the ability to tell them apart, they seem nice
<andreasn> hm, looks a bit unsharp
<andreasn> I think you should give the several sizes approach a shot
<andreasn> the danger one for example gets a bit hard to recognise when scaled down
<nysosym> okay
<nysosym> that they seem a little unsharp is a failure in cairo in will be improved in future versions
<andreasn> oh?
<nysosym> yes, these said a cairo dev, after i asked him ^^
<andreasn> carl?
<andreasn> what is the difference between pictures and photos btw?
<andreasn> anyway, keep up the good work
<nysosym> andreasn: i don't know how the difference is, but in the original gnome set are although pictures and photos...
<andreasn> I wish we had a tagging-system instead of the emblem system
<andreasn> guess it's up to the leaftag dudes
<nysosym> andreasn: sure, but i think the emblem system is much better/faster for finding folders/files with your eyes
<andreasn> the problem with the emblem system is that it's very unflexible, there is no emblem for "Work related to Project X" for example
<andreasn> osx has a tagging system with colors
<andreasn> that would let you spot stuff quick as well
<nysosym> but we can't steal anything from osx ^^
<andreasn> :)
#ubuntu-artwork 2007-11-26
<kwwii> definitely
<troy_s> kwwii: In the Ubuntu climate, that is a tricky road.  A veritable army would have a fight.
<kwwii> or a good core of decent like-minded people who have the "right idea"
<kwwii> if what we are trying to achieve was easy everyone would be doing it
<troy_s> kwwii: At least the same goals doesn't hurt.  I wouldn't expect that there would be fewer arguments or artsy fartsy debates -- but nor would I think that was healthy if there wasn't.
<troy_s> kwwii: Exactly.
<troy_s> kwwii: In fact, _very_ few companies get it and do it.  Those that do, are in the handful of Fortune 500 members generally.
<troy_s> kwwii: Hell... even the most powerful company in the world (at least a year ago) was not the 'ideal' -- MS.
<troy_s> kwwii: I fear that a good portion of what happens in art / design land in our world is crippled by looking to other examples of operating systems, as opposed to looking to what the 'bigger picture' reveals.
<troy_s> kwwii: Worse, they look to other distributions (yikes).
<kwwii> even though MS is so big I really think that we can beat them at the game, depending on how much freedom we get to really change things
<troy_s> kwwii: I will hand Apple full credit -- they carry on their _own_ path.
<kwwii> we have to fight against simply changing things for stupid reasons and also against simply staying the same as everyone else because we are afraid of change
<kwwii> it is a fine line we walk and we have to do it almost perfectly for it to work correctly or even happen at all
<troy_s> kwwii: Beating MS isn't an issue really -- they aren't a viable 'target' in terms of art / design / presence.  Hitting that mainstream recognition as doing something innovative in design would be the ultimate accolade.
<troy_s> kwwii: And completely +1 from me.
<kwwii> if we do not have this figured out by hardy or hardy+1 we will simply start to loose the game, no matter what we do
<troy_s> kwwii: That sums it up -- changing everything to get to exactly where we are is useless (especially if it just ends up a blue version of what we have for example)
<kwwii> exactly
<troy_s> kwwii: Getting it figured out is one thing, executing it is another.  It's a helluva lot of work, though granted, being the flagship tends to generate laborers faster.
<troy_s> kwwii: As I see it, FOSS and in particular Ubuntu -- with a six month cycle, has a very real chance to set an art and design pace.
<troy_s> kwwii: We could be on the bleeding edge of style with almost every release.
<kwwii> I'd like to see how many really good people come onboard willing to work in one direction, until now it seems everyone wants to do their own thing or nothing
<kwwii> but maybe I am being too negative
<troy_s> kwwii: Well to be 100% fair, that isn't because of the people.  That again points towards the top of the pile.
<kwwii> and perhaps the whole situation is because of the situation
<troy_s> kwwii: Without a clear direction and clear outlines etc., people just carry on.
<kwwii> exactly
<troy_s> kwwii: And yes, it is damn hard to do anything that anyone out in real world land would care about if we are stuck with some of the hideous decisions on KDE / GNOMEs behalf etc.
<kwwii> hehe, full ack
<troy_s> kwwii: Not to mention our own 'internal' issues. (you know what one ahem ones i mean)
<kwwii> old valdemort and his funky ideas
<troy_s> well... read zero ideas
<kwwii> in case of doubt, just keep doing the same as before
<kwwii> we understand each other
<troy_s> kwwii: I have no clue what is going on there.
<troy_s> kwwii: Oh I understand, as I have had long discussions with yewhoshallremainnameless.
<troy_s> kwwii: The 'cronyitus' isn't helping matters either.
<kwwii> yeah, although that is the lesser of the evils without a new idea which really could work
<kwwii> if we form a really good idea and it gets shot down I'll start looking for another job really quickly
<troy_s> kwwii: Lol.
<kwwii> as I have said before, we will either create the best stuff I have ever worked on or the last stuff I work on for this company
<troy_s> kwwii: Well whatever.  Either that or tow the line yet one more round of 'Ubuntu -- nasty design but keeps growing!'
<kwwii> we really have a chance to take a step forward, not doing so would be simply stupid
<troy_s> kwwii: My two main issues right now are probably 1) style and 2) interface
<kwwii> my biggest fear is that the decision will go to: do the same but somehow slightly different so that we can change things in the future
<kwwii> the interface is a big problem as we need more devs to really change things
<kwwii> and we are tied to upstream
<troy_s> 1) in an ideal world it would be wonderful to actually capture some of the contemporary design trends in the design (after all, it is only for 6 months) of which there are say -- five 'big' trends maybe 10?
<troy_s> 2) interface is nasty hard to dev -- pixmap engine would let a mock get done
<kwwii> hehe, no doubt...6 months and we make the world out of it
<troy_s> but the doing of something that moves forwards and looks good is well... just bloody hard.
<kwwii> an icon set takes 2-3 years to get done enough to really use, and it is still not done
<kwwii> the short cycle is a big hindrance
<troy_s> Ubuntu should feel _elegant_ like a piece of handcrafted furniture... tango, gtk engines, etc all seem mired in this glut of heavy handed outlining.
<troy_s> kwwii: Icon set is overrated.
<troy_s> kwwii: Hell... take Leopard for example -- they get the keystones in place and quit worrying.
<nothlit> forget about the icon set, you can wow people regardless, look @ f7
<kwwii> yeah, but they owned everything before hand
<troy_s> kwwii: The tango obsession with getting every single icon done is well... flakey in my personal opinion.  It would never be done and even if it did, is it worth it?
<troy_s> nothlit: complete +1
<kwwii> yeah, both of you are right
<troy_s> nothlit: By the way, diana is working at a video game company in california now.
<kwwii> hehe, good for her
<kwwii> she might just have more control of things now
<troy_s> kwwii: In the end, we just look at the bigger picture and see what say, an audience member sees --
<kwwii> the new canonical desktop dev knows the new girl at redhat
<troy_s> kwwii: Folders, interface icons, and say the glyphs for status.
<troy_s> kwwii: Red Hat is done.
<kwwii> the toolbar icons are the most important and hardest part
<troy_s> kwwii: They had their run, and they should have given the keys to Diana.
<darkmatter> troy_s: lol. the whole "give me two crayons, one light, one dark, and I'll make ye icons!" tango thing is infesting the ffx3 nightlies too
<kwwii> a lot of those metaphors are really hard to change without people complaining
<troy_s> kwwii: Well, and I say it again, isn't a metaphor dependent on culture / context/ etc?
<troy_s> kwwii: There is this idea that because Apple and MS use the sames, that we should.
<kwwii> troy_s: definitely and everyone thinks they can have their say
<troy_s> kwwii: It is yet another area that eventually a project such as Ubuntu could have fully customized versions for each dependent on culture.
<kwwii> a lot of it is listening to the right people and ignorning the wrong people without being wrong :-)
<troy_s> kwwii: MS and Apple probably _don't_ because they don't have the resources.
<kwwii> anyway...1:30 here almost...time for a movie and then sleep
<kwwii> troy_s: definitely ture
<kwwii> true
<troy_s> (sounds silly, but getting a true 'cultural feeling' is something that perhaps only Ubuntu or like project could do.)
<troy_s> ok... sleepy time.
 * Toma- downloaded Fedora 7 Live just to experience the artwork
<troy_s> kwwii: In the interest of not falling off the map
<troy_s> kwwii: Perhaps bzr branches are a good place to start -- just make a decision and roll wth it
<troy_s> kwwii: For example, the 3d etched glyphs
<kwwii> troy_s: yeah, probably a really good idea
<troy_s> kwwii: You could probably start a bzr branch and get a shitload pooped out with help.
<kwwii> it would give us the chance to make more last-minute-ish decisions
<troy_s> kwwii: Myself and a few were able to palettize the entire tango icon set in a few hours.
<troy_s> kwwii: I can only imagine that getting SVGs etched would be quite easy
<kwwii> yeah, if we can get everyone working in one direction
<troy_s> kwwii: Hrm... 3D from Top/ Topleft light?  SVG only.  XXX resolution.  yyy grey.  highlight zzz shadow aaa.
<troy_s> kwwii: ?
<troy_s> kwwii: If need be, add colours for the radar etc in about an hour to existing glyphs.
<kwwii> yeah, defining it is half the problem, getting people to follow the rules and even be interested in it is the hard part
<troy_s> (assuming colour / action comes down the pipe at some point)
<troy_s> kwwii: Honestly, if the rules are there people will follow.  Bzr is great that way -- just merge the ones that work.
<troy_s> lol
<troy_s> the others are moot.
<troy_s> in fact,
<troy_s> as a starting point,
<troy_s> the shapes are all already in tango in svg format.
<troy_s> just pick the basic shape, fill, etc.
<kwwii> yeah, you are probably right
<troy_s> a big one might be the window decoration.  THAT one is a damn hard thing to figure out what is ... distinct and elegant.
<troy_s> did you ever see bvc's noir?
<kwwii> nope
<troy_s> (not a big fan of black on the windows)
<troy_s> let me see if i can find the link.
<troy_s> he used oval buttons
<troy_s> and well... they were damn distinct and quite interesting.
<troy_s> hold tight for a second
<troy_s> http://www.guistyles.com/wp-gallery/Noir.png
<troy_s> now ignore the black
<troy_s> (lol)
<troy_s> look at the lowest right one.
<troy_s> lowest right two
<kwwii> yeah, using differing colors of grew to define different parts would be a great idea
<troy_s> kwwii: See the oval?  Perhaps if we could come up with a way to get some minimize / maximize glyph?
<kwwii> I have been thinking a lot about that recently
<kwwii> yepp, very nice
<troy_s> its a bundle of hard work just thinking of things that 'work'.
<darkmatter> yay! mac rip! :O
<troy_s> it really is.  i certainly don't profess to have any answers... so far neil patel's interface mocks were as close to good as possible.
<troy_s> darkmatter: Options?
<kwwii> it is even harder to get some kind of mockups done that will impress valdemort without actually getting the whole stuff done
<troy_s> darkmatter: I find them to be away from OSX by a long way -- osx uses gems and they are round.
<troy_s> darkmatter: Quite a different look.
<troy_s> (the lower right ones)
<troy_s> lol
<troy_s> anyways,
<troy_s> sleep on it.
<troy_s> perhaps this week we can try and gather bits together and get something decent with regards to interface _and_ overall desktop presence.
<troy_s> hell...
<hbon1> oval's look hard to hit to me
<darkmatter> troy_s: nah. 98% of the osx 3rd poarty stuff (read. themes users actually use) use the ovals. bvc is good at copying :)
<troy_s> maybe we should just start thinking about words that the thing should communicate.
<darkmatter> *party
<troy_s> darkmatter: Well, having looked at both Leopard and Vista, those are quite distinct in the middle ground.  Vista's top notch buttons are... nasty.  Gems are done.
<kwwii> troy_s: yeah, part of it is that
<kwwii> anyway...i am dead, see all tomorrow
<troy_s> outs.
 * troy_s outs as well.
<kwwii> night man
<kwwii> see you soon I hope
<troy_s> night to all.
<troy_s> who are off to bed.
<troy_s> lol
<troy_s> darkmatter: In the meantime, maybe mock up a series of five different buttons for a window deco?
<troy_s> darkmatter: Surely your ocd might let you do that.
<darkmatter> troy_s: haha. its not ocd btw
<darkmatter> troy_s: oh.. and back to the vista buttons. that a good example of how fitts doesnt "fit"
<darkmatter> *thats
<nothlit> btw have you you guys seen the inkscape: inkscape mockups?
<troy_s> nothlit: Link!?
<troy_s> nothlit: Have you seen the ubersecret 3d box tool?:
<troy_s> nothlit: Alt-F2 -- WOW.
<nothlit> yes, not so secret lol
<troy_s> darkmatter: Seriously, do a window deco study.  Maybe five sets?
<troy_s> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cHLDtJXc8fg
<troy_s> nothlit: Link!
<nothlit> its glossy, but just wondering if you guys have seen them, http://andy.brisgeek.com/archives/39
<Toma-> that looks awesome (in terms of gloss)
<nothlit> hmm, nice http://andy.brisgeek.com/archives/34-- this is where svg reaches its  practical limitation imo http://andy.brisgeek.com/archives/35 http://klepas.org/2007/03/05/%E2%80%9Cflying-high-fc7%E2%80%9D-%E2%80%9Cfedora-aurora-australis%E2%80%9D/
<nothlit> svg is better at remixing http://andy.brisgeek.com/archives/36, internationalising http://andy.brisgeek.com/archives/45, scripting, animation, etc
<hbon1> what do you guys think of tango-HiRes, does that have ubuntu potential?
<troy_s> nothlit: That limitation is only the limit of the individual.
<troy_s> nothlit: Honestly, you can do far better work with inkscape.
<nothlit> troy_s: practical
<nothlit> not theoretical =p
<troy_s> nothlit: Practical, you can do better :)
<troy_s> nothlit: Don't make me demo something.
<troy_s> lol
<troy_s> hbon1: The tango hi res are still lacking style.
<troy_s> hbon1: And detail for that matter.
<troy_s> hbon1: Unless you have links that I haven't seen.
<hbon1> troy_s: i'm just what IS going to be the style
<darkmatter> troy_s: that autumn plugin aint to shabby
<darkmatter> troy_s: been planning to do some stress testing of f8's animated background. I would love to adapt it to subtle animation and traditional effects. like. have nice nature closeups )grass, leaves etc) and have the slight breeze effect, time transitions (imagine the fun you could have with lighting. the background stuff is already linked to the clock, but there's no 'good' slideshow implementations for it
<darkmatter> *transitional
<nothlit> for anyone else who had trouble compiling lately http://www.nabble.com/Problem-compiling-with-gcc-4.2.2-and-libsigc%2B%2B2.0-v2.1.1-tf4644075.html#a13278901
<darkmatter> nothlit those inkscape mockups aren't to shabby
<darkmatter> nothlit reminded me that I need to finish my graphics apps themes. (custom gtk's designed specifically to fit with the apps) basically the same approach I take too theming in general. if an app doesnt play nice with a theme or doesnt quite look right, then build an app specific gtk.rc and point the launcher to open offending app with the requisite tweak. it works flawlessly. actually creating a consistent design. but the downside is
<darkmatter>  the theme gets HUGE
<Burgundavia> please remember to email fridge-devel on all new meetings
<troy_s> yeah will get right on that... *sigh*
<troy_s> ghoooooomba
<BHSPitMonkey> goomba?
<kwwii> good morning all
<lapo> hi
<_MMA_> Anyone know where the throbber "foot" is that shows up in Nautilus?
<darkmatter> _MMA_: yes. /usr/share/icons/gnome<size>/animations
<darkmatter> _MMA_: it has the static (inactive) foot and a composite image for the animation
<somerville32> Is anyone here interested on working on Xubuntu artwork? :]
<_MMA_> darkmatter:  Yeah. I did finally find it. I replaced the static image but saw no change. :\
<_MMA_> somerville32: I've seen no chat about it but Im sure if someone laid out some guidelines and spammed a couple of places *someone* would be interested.
<darkmatter> _MMA_: did you "sudo gtk-update-icon-cache -f <path to theme>"?
 * _MMA_ has only really had lip-service though with Ubuntu Studio though.
<_MMA_> darkmatter: I rebooted actually. Would the command make a difference?
<somerville32> _MMA_, Well, Jmak has been doing it all by himself for the last few releases. I don't think he particularly wants help but I think it would be nice to get some good second opinions in since we rely on his decision
<darkmatter> _MMA_: yes. the icon cache doesn't auto regen
<_MMA_> Ahh... I will do now.
<somerville32> _MMA_, He wants to make some radical changes this release to artwork so I'm a little scarred :P
<darkmatter> don't ask me why. its an absolutely stupis way to handle caching
<darkmatter> *stupid
<_MMA_> somerville32: Sure. Thats what I was hoping this time but havnt had much luck myself.
 * _MMA_ goes to desktop for a sec.
<_MMA_> grr... I gotta be doing something wrong.
<darkmatter> _MMA_: still not changing the static foot?
<_MMA_> Well I think it has to do with the image Im replacing. I think I have it.
#ubuntu-artwork 2007-11-27
<troy_s> somerville32: Xubuntu changing looks?  Thank god.
<somerville32> : O
<somerville32> Whats wrong with our look?
<somerville32> I lovei t.
<somerville32> Gutsy was amazing.
<troy_s> somerville32: Uh... moving on then.
<somerville32> lol
<somerville32> No no, you don't get off that easy
<troy_s> somerville32: I fear I must. :)
<somerville32> :P
<somerville32> troy_s, You're now expected to help with Xubuntu artwork.
<troy_s> somerville32: Nope.  You have jmak and he has been loyal and dedicated.
<troy_s> somerville32: I gurgled to myself when I saw the Gutsy work though.  It scared me.
<somerville32> ...
<somerville32> We got a lot of positive reviews for Gutsy's artwork
<troy_s> somerville32: Evaluating design in our little world is a sheltered and closed circle filled with a lot of people who like to play follow the leader.
<somerville32> Well, don't spit at it unless you're willing to polish it :P
<troy_s> somerville32: It isn't spitting honestly.
<troy_s> somerville32: My main issue (and it generally echoes some of the feedback I have received from more 'mainstream' folks) was that it was an extremely heavy handed replication of duplication.
<troy_s> somerville32: In terms of the suffering wet-floor-itus.
<troy_s> somerville32: But don't take my word for it.
 * somerville32 blinks.
<Toma-> troy_sâ id love to hear what you have to say about UI design :)
<troy_s> Toma-: I dont' think anyone cares about what I have to say about anything really.  It is why I idle in this little cave.
<troy_s> lol
<Toma-> awww :<
<troy_s> Toma-: Do you subscribe to the ubuntu art mailing list?
<Toma-> no, but i probably should
<troy_s> Toma-: There are some interesting discussions at times.
<Toma-> I just subscribed
<troy_s> somerville32: Sorry... where are the reviews that you were speaking of?  I would be interested to read them.
<troy_s> Toma-: Be warned.  But you might find something interesting.
<Toma-> troy_sâ Im one of those folks that wants desperatly to break free of the mould
<troy_s> Toma-: In what respect?  You mean for default Ubuntu design?
<Toma-> doubt itll happen in ubuntu
<Toma-> general UI design
<Toma-> my current desktop im making http://members.iinet.net.au/~haste/e17fireball.png
<Toma-> works faster than KDE or gnome
<troy_s> Toma-: Well the main stumbling block is probably twofold on that count.  1) Free software requires that certain things are constant in the realm of UI or else you break stuffs.
<troy_s> 2) Breaking into interesting ground requires folks who code things.  Thus far, the more 'exemplary' candidates are byproducts of imitation.  Rather like stage one of art -- first you imitate / mimic.
<troy_s> Toma-: And yes, rasterman has done quite a bit of benchmarking and memtesting to prove that E is pretty top shelf in terms of lean.
<Toma-> gtk and qt are such horrible pigs on a design level and on a memory level :(
<troy_s> kwwii: Ping.
<troy_s> somerville32: So what are the changes that JMak is trying to implement?
<somerville32> troy_s, Panel layout
<somerville32> New icon
<somerville32> New the
<somerville32> *icons
<somerville32> *themes
<troy_s> somerville32: What stylings is he thinking?
<somerville32> I'm not an artist and can't articulate
<somerville32> http://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Artwork
<troy_s> somerville32: So clearly there is a little 'shakeup' in the Xubuntu camp?
<somerville32> Well, it won't be me committing the changes to revert the our panel layout policy
<troy_s> ?
<troy_s> aside from the panel moving to the left, what is different?
<troy_s> looks virtually identical.
<troy_s> or am i stupid and or missing something.
<troy_s> lol
<troy_s> (also immensely possible)
<troy_s> somerville32: What do you mean it 'wont be you'?
<somerville32> Look at Hardy
<somerville32> The panel is like the default xfce desktop
<somerville32> and the NouveX icons I think
<somerville32> And I mean what I say, I won't make the changes
<troy_s> somerville32: Ah.  So you are grounding your feet on the move then?
<somerville32> Well, I'm not just going to go ahead and make it
<somerville32> and we've been clear that we're not going to change the panel layout -we want it like gnome's default layout
<troy_s> well then, all is well and good, no?
<somerville32> I do want to see progress with the look and feel
<somerville32> This is a LTS
<troy_s> somerville32: So you want more blue then?
<somerville32> Not although blue is in heavy in our pallet
<somerville32> *No
<troy_s> somerville32: Oh you have a palette.  Great.  Where is it?
 * somerville32 grovels.
<somerville32> I dunno :P
<somerville32> Our art team is a one man effort, all our eggs are in one basket
<somerville32> There is no documentation, no anything
<somerville32> It is locked in
<troy_s> somerville32: He has been loyal and true it seems.  Perhaps, given that, the team should let him have a kick at the can?
<troy_s> brb ... restarting x.  BOrK3d.
<somerville32> I don't have a problem with Jmak
<somerville32> I think he has done excellent work
<somerville32> I don't have a problem with Jmak
<somerville32> I think he has done excellent work
<troy_s> evil nasty little panels that won't go away.
<troy_s> grr.
<troy_s> somerville32: Let me rephrase this... and it applies across the board to all of Free Software...
<troy_s> somerville32: What are you fearful of?  The 'product' is free.  Heaven knows that with the awful default design and work present in the offical *buntus that we know, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that art / design won't scare people away.
<troy_s> somerville32: As a result, I am curious as to what everyone's worry is exactly...
<troy_s> somerville32: It isn't like there is a hotbed of millions of customers paying and waited with baited breath...
<troy_s> somerville32: Follow me?
<somerville32> There is a hotbed of people, though
<troy_s> somerville32: There are some very minor limited numbers... yes.
<somerville32> I'd rather try to please than not to please
<somerville32> Thats why I'm working on the distro
<somerville32> To make it better
<troy_s> somerville32: Ahhhhhhhhhhh the root of the issue.
<troy_s> somerville32: And please is a universal term that is easy to point to correct and incorrect approaches when it comes to art and design?
<somerville32> I
<somerville32> am not an artist.
<somerville32> I just want something that looks good for my users
<troy_s> somerville32: If that were the case, one could make a strong case that in fact all of the *buntu's have gotten it completely incorrect as current user base is far behind even the distant second place Apple.
<troy_s> somerville32: Your users?
<troy_s> somerville32: And you think you are in a clear position to make that decision?
<somerville32> I take personal responsibility for Xubuntu
<somerville32> There is only like 3 of us working on it
<somerville32> (Directly)
<somerville32> I don't feel that I can pick the best theme
<somerville32> Or the best colours
<somerville32> Thats why I want people to get involved in Xubuntu artwork
<troy_s> somerville32: I have studied art and design for a good five years, as well as practised art, photography, and several other worthless creative tidbits for a good 12 after that.  I would say that with that rather limited experience, I have _no_ clue what is 'good' for a given user base when it comes down to it.
<troy_s> somerville32: Which is why, I suppose, I question your authoritarian position on 'good' -- being a nebulous and completely empty term if not mired in context.
<somerville32> Obviously our perspectives on the issue are different but I think we can both agree that the goal is develop something, at the LCD, is attractive
<somerville32> I think what we have is "good"
<somerville32> I enjoy i
<somerville32> *it
<somerville32> Looks nice but I'm sure it could look better, can't it?
<troy_s> somerville32: Sure, but you are but one of many many many people.  Do you think Xubuntu attracts people based on its default look / design / work?
<_MMA_> somerville32: 3 active? Wow. I feel a little better about our position.
<troy_s> somerville32: Better and good.  I have a tough time following those terms.
<troy_s> _MMA_: How do you kill the damn gnome panel.  I did it once, now I can't do it again.
<troy_s> _MMA_: I thought it was pkill but it refuses to die.
<_MMA_> Oh hell I forgot. Ill look.
<nothlit> killall gnome-panel
<somerville32> All I know is that how it looks may affect how people interact and/or appreciate the distribution.
<troy_s> somerville32: Sure, and one could argue that given the seriously amazing technology that the Ubuntus are flailing poorly at that.
<troy_s> nothlit: No good... it resurrected itself.
<Toma--> screenshots are easier to download than isos
<nothlit> oh
<nothlit> then take it out of system -> Preferences -> Sessions
<troy_s> somerville32: Again, if Xubuntu isn't in a position to at least experiment with its rather conservative changes, does that bode well for anything / anyone?
<somerville32> We're open to change
<somerville32> But we are conservative, it seems
<troy_s> somerville32: Clearly that isn't the case.
<Toma--> _MMA_â any thoughts on a new ubuntustudio concept?
<troy_s> somerville32: Is there perhaps a middle ground that the three of you can agree upon?
<somerville32> I think I can we're happy to consider artwork changes
<somerville32> But I'm tired of unproductive discussion on the developer mailing list
<somerville32> I'd like to see more art-art people get involved
<somerville32> Get other ideas flowing
<troy_s> somerville32: My only thing to say would be that perhaps, in our current world, if Free Software isn't free to make changes and morph (perhaps 'radical' ones at times) -- do we have any lifeblood or strength left?
<troy_s> somerville32: How do you plan on attracting +real+ artists (who are known historically to challenge norms and perception) when you aren't willing to even make a change that a loyal team mate is considering?
<somerville32> We are considering all the changes he proposes
<somerville32> But whats happening is just random banter
<troy_s> somerville32: So the question is, if you would like to see "more art-art people" -- how do you see them fit into the picture?
<troy_s> nothlit: HELP IT WONT DIE
<troy_s> lol
<troy_s> nothlit: ITS LIKE A BAD ED WOOD MOVIE
<troy_s> (how the hell did I do it?)
<Toma--> xkill, then click it?
<somerville32> As an effective working body that develops concrete art proposals
<_MMA_> Toma--: For now it will be a flatter look still. Use photos where we can and use the current logo. Will look like this minus the desktop icons. http://img408.imageshack.us/img408/2778/screenshot3nr7.png
<_MMA_> And the icons are up in the air for now.
<troy_s> AHHHH DID IT.  phew... sessions tab.  Thanks nothlit
<_MMA_> Shit. I have to host it somewhere else.
<troy_s> somerville32: Hrm.  So jmak's aren't concrete?
<Toma-> Hmmm a photo you say
<somerville32> I didn't say that
<somerville32> Thats how I see "more art-art people" fitting in
<troy_s> somerville32:  Ah.
 * Toma- doesnt even have a camera ;(
<somerville32> troy_s, Are you interested? :]
<troy_s> somerville32: Not a chance.
<somerville32> Why not? lol
<_MMA_> Toma-: http://img501.imageshack.us/img501/9370/screenshot3tj6.jpg
<_MMA_> (minus the icons.
<troy_s> somerville32: I think it would be a disservice to jmak (who regardless of what one thinks of his work has gotten the job done reliably for gosh knows how long).
<Toma-> _MMA_â gloss is back hey?
<troy_s> somerville32: As well as well... making blue cloudy curves isn't... uh...
<troy_s> somerville32: Remotely good for Free Software.
<_MMA_> Toma-: There's no gloss.
<Toma-> that panel is gloss
<_MMA_> No.
<troy_s> Toma-: Have you seen _MMA_ 's attempt to illustrate the DIY look?
<Toma-> no..
<Toma-> ive seen some interesting concepts for it tho
<troy_s> Toma-: He did some very very good work in accumulating what DIY is to a layman that might not be aware of it.
<Toma-> hehe
<troy_s> Toma-: It is evocative of the punk era (and in fact that is where it originated) and generally 'feels' like photocopied and distressed work.
<_MMA_> Ill get it done. Even if it doesnt make this release. ;)
<Toma-> :P
<troy_s> _MMA_: Yeah... _that_ is a great attitude.  The will to stick with it and realize that it might not happen is damn respectable and admirable.
<_MMA_> I gotta. I made hoodies with the distressed logo all over it. :)
<Toma-> i chucked a couple of my things up on gnome look
<troy_s> Toma-: Have a look at _MMA_ 's page.
<Toma-> link?
<troy_s> Toma-: The hard thing is to try and take the classic stylings and contemporize them possibly.
<_MMA_> Toma-: you've seen that damn link 100 times.
<Toma-> ....the wiki link?
<_MMA_> Si
<troy_s> _MMA_: Where are you on wallpapers, just so I know that these mocks aren't a complete waste of time (Did that already once this cycle thanks (not with you) :) ).
<Toma-> Did you see this nilux guys idea for a GTK theme?
<Toma-> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/Artwork/DIYConcept/Theme
<Toma-> I dont think theres a gtk engine that could do it, but it would be rather spiffy
<_MMA_> troy_s: I got a bunch of wall ideas. Thats really not the problem. Its that damn icon set. Along with the fact that I really dont think out theme fits no matter how flat I make it. :(
<troy_s> _MMA_: Well... erm... granted the iconscape is pitiful -- what is wrong with offering a contrast on that level?
<troy_s> _MMA_: The bulk of the execution is going to fall on the standard keystones -- that usplash / logon / wallpaper.
<_MMA_> I dont know what you mean by the latter half. "contrast on that level"?
<troy_s> _MMA_: I am just wondering if it will end up being too pedantic and monotonous maybe if it tries to 'be like the bigger picture'?
<troy_s> _MMA_: Maybe a highly realistic set devoid of the nasty 'hey let's do that hideously dated gloss' thing might work?
<Toma-> Those icons remind me of the high contrast themes available in KDE and the gnome accessability themes.
<Toma-> and to a lesser extent, the gtk theme aswell
<_MMA_> Oh sure, but which. I just started to get the feeling that this concept is too much trial and error than I could handle by myself. Especially where the icons were concerned.
<troy_s> _MMA_: Well icons are such a strange creature.  I am simply thinking hey -- maybe anchor the look with a lovely bold and well designed wallpaper -- round it out with the gdm usplash variant -- and test fly a few icon sets against the wallpaper?
<Toma-> what if you were to use a icon theme from mattahan (gant/buuf)?
<_MMA_> I could create the parts, and independently they look good but together some things were starting to look a mess. Thats where I needed halp. Another eye. And while wallpapers are appreciated, it almost seems any monkey can make one. Its much harder to do a icon theme, usplash or GDM.
<_MMA_> Toma-: While I love them, it wouldnt fly.
<Toma-> Why not?
<_MMA_> Too cartoonish.
<troy_s> buuf
<troy_s> lol
<troy_s> i was just looking at them
<Toma-> fantastic for punk
<troy_s> lol
<_MMA_> And Im unsure about the license.
<troy_s> buuf is so stylized...
<_MMA_> No. I dont think they fit at all for it.
<troy_s> _MMA_: Actually, I honestly think the wallpaper is probably the biggest hitchpin to the thing working or not.
<_MMA_> Beautiful but no.
 * Toma- gets to work on a Buuf+Wallpaper :)
<troy_s> it needs to be one part diy with that ever soooooooo delicate contemporary twist of something..
<_MMA_> troy_s: Sure its key but its easy to get people to make 'em.
<Toma-> Buuf = "Creative Commons Attribution-Noncommercial-Share Alike 3.0 License."
<_MMA_> I needed help on the rest.
<troy_s> _MMA_: Have you considered trying to get Lith?
<troy_s> _MMA_: Lith is pretty much spot on is it not?
<_MMA_> "troy_s: it needs to be one part diy with that ever soooooooo delicate contemporary twist of something.." I completely agree. And its driving me nuts.
<troy_s> _MMA_: And who knows... maybe a decently executed contemporary icon set (ack hate to say vista inspirate) or something would provide good contrast in terms of content to almost work?
<_MMA_> troy_s: Sure. I thought about it. Im honestly a little hesitant about asking and unsure if I would get .svg's. (or .ai's)
<troy_s> _MMA_: Lith is still feels as close to 'yep' but maybe its too much.
<troy_s> _MMA_: Who knows... maybe ask him?  Surely he must know of the buntu's and who knows how he woudl respond.
<_MMA_> troy_s: Problem was with playing with Lith on top of a similarly styled wallpaper is that it got messy.
<_MMA_> Hard to see the icons on the desktop.
<_MMA_> In Nautilus they were ok.
<troy_s> _MMA_: Well that is what I mean (although again, it is hard to know without a decent wallpaper and even then, in context of natilus is probably more important than purely on desky)
<troy_s> _MMA_: Grr... you typed it before I said it.
<_MMA_> ;)
<_MMA_> But I've resigned myself to making it a longer term project. This Hardy theme will come along fine. I removed the gloss but have a slight sheen. Slight gradient. I'm gonna use photos where I can. I have emailed Tonic about the Usplash with concepts.
<troy_s> _MMA_: Even 'gnomish' might work?
<_MMA_> I have one guy that did a nice GDM Ill contact again.
 * _MMA_ looks.
<_MMA_> troy_s: You have a link?
 * _MMA_ cant readily find them.
<troy_s> _MMA_: I think they are pretty flat toned... and monochromaticish...
<troy_s> http://gnome-look.org/content/show.php/Gnomish+SVG?content=21296
<_MMA_> Ahh yes. I remember.
<troy_s> its such a hard thing to try and add a compliment to
<_MMA_> I can hear now the amount of people screaming how ugly it is.
<troy_s> LOL
<troy_s> _MMA_: Yeah well they are the same ones voting the ninja ubuntu cof up to 80%
<troy_s> llooool
<_MMA_> :)
<troy_s> _MMA_: Honestly, I would probably worry as hell on the default wallpaper and how to present the Usplash (as the GDM would probably be a wallpaper variant (NOT the same fricking thing))
<_MMA_> For the DIY look?
<hbons> be sure not to get rid of the gdm "drum" sound, i love it:)
<_MMA_> hbons: We're talking about Ubuntu Studio.
<hbons> oh well:)
<_MMA_> troy_s: For Ubuntu and Ubuntu Studio-Hardy I git this guy in the channel. Not that I like the glossy look but I think there are some interesting ideas in this set. http://gnome-look.org/content/show.php/Minimal-perception?content=68146&PHPSESSID=7de31c485c5a07c247b67dffbb37e750
<_MMA_> s/git/got
<_MMA_> He sent me some variants with the gloss removed and some color variants.
<troy_s> _MMA_: I know you have, but you went to kde-look too right?
<_MMA_> Not lately.
<troy_s> although i am convinced that if more people spent less time dreaming up names and more time on the work it might be better.
<troy_s> lol
<_MMA_> :)
<_MMA_> And on that note, I'm gonna try to sleep. I'm getting sick and want to try to get to bed before I feel too bad.
<troy_s> aight
<troy_s> night
<zniavre> hello is it possible to get roundness menus in gnome please ?
<kwwii> zniavre: right, I'll get right on that
<andreasn> hi kwwii
<kwwii> hi andreasn
<kwwii> andreasn: how's things?
<andreasn> what's up?
<kwwii> hehe, you first :-)
<andreasn> pretty good, finishing up some work
<kwwii> yeah, I am still working on putting this presentation together
<andreasn> I was thinking of trying to learn how to do patches today
<andreasn> let's see how it goes
<kwwii> we'll make a geek of you yet
<andreasn> when were you going to held the presentation?
<kwwii> dec. 5th
<andreasn> hope it goes well, and that you're able to decide on the colors
<andreasn> so you can return home somethime this year :)
<kwwii> yeah, me too
<kwwii> hi nothlit
<kwwii> I have a definite answer on the artwork licence, if anyone is interested
<kwwii> we will be using cc-sa for the artwork (and no, there is no reason to discuss it as it is not my decision)
<_MMA_> Mandarancid: We wont know anything "from the boss" until after the 5th of December.
<Mandarancid> _MMA_:OK Thanks!!
<_MMA_> No problem.
<Toma-> I propose all check boxes be replaced with smileys in next release. http://members.iinet.net.au/~haste/smiley.png
<Toma-> :)
<_MMA_> No. Ponies.
<Toma-> Hmm. Ill have to work the gradients! lets see if its possible
<_MMA_> :P
<lapo> hi
<knowmad> hi, is this an appropriate channel for discussion usplash customization issues?
<troy_s> <zniavre> hello is it possible to get roundness menus in gnome please ?
<troy_s> No.
#ubuntu-artwork 2007-11-28
<kwwii> lol
<kwwii> man, can't sleep........
<troy_s> kwwii: Yay
<troy_s> kwwii: Not sleeping is great.
<_MMA_> kwwii: bash scripting FTW!!
<kwwii> _MMA_: you love bash script, you wierdo
 * kwwii heads back to bed
<BHSPitMonkey> Hey all
<BHSPitMonkey> I'm planning on releasing an Ubuntu-based theme I've been working on for i[Phones|Touches], and I'm wondering how I should attribute properly...
<nothlit> check all sources you used for the licenses and methods lol
<BHSPitMonkey> nothlit, where are these licenses/attributions in Ubuntu?
<nothlit> what type of sources are you using
<nothlit> the trademark policy has a guide for the official stuff
<nothlit> otherwise you can download the source artwork packages from packages.ubuntu.com, there will be COPYING etc for that sort of thing
<nothlit> the latest ones have the attribution and license placed in the diff
<BHSPitMonkey> nothlit, I used a cropped Gutsy default background and various icons used in Ubuntu
<nothlit> BHSPitMonkey: you can use apt-file to discover what package owns the file
<zniavre> http://img267.imageshack.us/img267/9034/capture1bn8.png  >menu
<zniavre>  http://img407.imageshack.us/img407/6784/captureux8.png  >combobox
<zniavre> hello
<zniavre> i can't find the way to make the combobox fonts as menu fonts when it selected
<zniavre> can you help me please? or it's not the good place to ask
<andreasn> zniavre: there are some good theming gurus in #gnome-art on irc.gnome.org
<zniavre> thank you andreasn
<zniavre> im just asking there
<mikebeecham> hello
<_MMA_> hi
<mikebeecham> just been looking at the Ubuntu forums, and noticed that you have an entire section dedicated to the design of Ubuntu
<mikebeecham> nice
<mikebeecham> just thought I would stop by and say hello
<mikebeecham> as a designer, etc
<_MMA_> :)
<mikebeecham> busy in here, I see :D
<_MMA_> mikebeecham: Lots of students and people with jobs. ;)
<mikebeecham> ahhh ok
<mikebeecham> fairplay then
<kwwii> hehe
<mikebeecham> so, has anything been agreed with Heron?  Is the blakc and orange scheme going ahead?
<mikebeecham> black**
<_MMA_> We should have the word in about a week.
<mikebeecham> ahhh great
<mikebeecham> I've been a grahpic designer for about 10 years if thats of any help....a bit of interfacing, typography and logo design...I do a lot of Photomanip work as well...but love messing with colours, etc
<mikebeecham> i'm just in the middle of creating a website for my Internet Service Provider....scarily...in orange!!!!
<_MMA_> :)
<mikebeecham> http://mbeecham.fireflyinternet.co.uk/mike/control.jpg
<_MMA_> Cool. Hopefully you can help once we have the final word on the direction.
<mikebeecham> http://mbeecham.fireflyinternet.co.uk/mike/home.jpg
<mikebeecham> and that is the home page I was thinking of
<mikebeecham> yeah that would be cool...i dont mind helping out where I can...I've been using linux for 6 days now....love it
<_MMA_> 6 days? :)
<mikebeecham> yes
<mikebeecham> Windows user all my life, installed Linux 6 days ago (ish)
<mikebeecham> so, still getting to grips and have a dual boot system, so that I can continue using CS3
<_MMA_> Cool. It can be some work but its alot of fun.
 * _MMA_ sold his copy of Photoshop CS2.
<mikebeecham> yeah...the challenges are part of the benefit for me...I've just managed to set up samba shares for my xbox media center
<mikebeecham> which was a fun 'learning curve'
<mikebeecham> :|
 * mikebeecham would never sell CS3
 * _MMA_ has broken every box in his house multiple times. Helps with learning. ;)
<mikebeecham> hahaha
<mikebeecham> yeah
<_MMA_> Admittedly, tinkering has contributed to breakage. :)
<mikebeecham> man must tinker
<mikebeecham> it's inevitable!
<mikebeecham> thats why we have sheds to potter around in
<_MMA_> ;)
<mikebeecham> where can I get the ubuntu logo?
<_MMA_> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Official
<kwwii> I have never done artwork before and probably won't ever really help in any way but I wanted to suggest that ubuntu go pink and green
<_MMA_> FTW!
<aantn> :)
<aantn> hehe
#ubuntu-artwork 2007-11-29
<Burgundavia> kwwii: please email fridge-devel about any meetings you have
<andreasn> kwwii: ping
<kwwii> andreasn: hey man, wassup?
<andreasn> oh, hi!
<andreasn> not much, reporting bugs mostly
<andreasn> as you might have seen in my blog, I'm also a hacker now ;)
<kwwii> :-)
<andreasn> and you?
<kwwii> still working on this presentation, among other things
<kwwii> playing around with button ideas
<andreasn> let me know if you need any help
<kwwii> I'll probably send you a copy of the presentation later today and you can tell me what you think is missing
<andreasn> sounds great, thanks!
<kwwii> andreasn: just read you mail about the status icons
<andreasn> haven't managed to get something working with etched icons yet
<andreasn> currently my experiments look bad on too dark backgrounds
<kwwii> you raise a good point, I've talked to a couple of people and their are only two ways around it: code or simply saying that our set is supposed to be shown on the default panel
<kwwii> I tried playing with different fills and strokes, etching, etc but I could not see a way to fix it with just art
 * andreasn silently wishes everything wasn't so frigging themeable ;)
<darkmatter> andreasn: hehe. you haven't even seen themeable yet ;)
<andreasn> the white outline thing works well for HighContrast, but etched stuff probably looks a bit slicker
<darkmatter> *surpresses evil laughter*
<darkmatter> suppresses*
<andreasn> why not just make it good by default? :)
 * andreasn hides
<kwwii> hehe
 * darkmatter returns to working on Narcissus
<troy_s> Assuming that the inner stroke happens, it would seem irrelevant how a dark icon's 'lighter' stroke appears when placed against a light background.  The inner stroke is there to provide the contrast against the BG, but if the icon itself is contrasting, is it terribly relevant that its inner stroke disappears?
<troy_s> And I would sincerely hope that the clunky inner stroke / outer stroke / tertiary stroke 'usability' feedback loop is simply avoided altogether.  It is a good chunk of the reason that the icons end up looking clunky as hell.
<andreasn> troy_s: hm? what icons? the notification ones, or the desktop ones?
<troy_s> andreasn: Both.
<andreasn> the monochrome icons I posted on the list?
<andreasn> or the ones in gnome-icon-theme etc?
<troy_s> andreasn: Not directly -- the statement was directed more at 'in general' -- your shapes against white simply look far superior than the ones with the outline against black.
<andreasn> hm, so how do you suggest we solve the problem?
<troy_s> andreasn: I don't see a problem at all.
<andreasn> that black icons are invisible on black backgrounds?
<troy_s> andreasn: Unless those pixels around the object are serving an aesthetic design reason (say as per kwwii 's quite slick icon etch look)
<andreasn> hm, let me do some tests
<troy_s> andreasn: It is too much worrying about that rather silly 'let's worry about every situation'
<troy_s> andreasn: My inclination would be to design for whatever look tone the overarching look is going for, and simply not worry about the rest.
<andreasn> http://www.andreasn.se/diverse/temp/darkpanel.png
<troy_s> andreasn: Ultimately, it is a simple reality that not all situations can be accommodated for, and nor should they.  Leopard doesn't worry about people who want to flip their tones to the same tone as their folders for example.  _No_ designer should worry about that sort of irrelevant situation.
<troy_s> andreasn: Yep.  I wouldn't care.
<andreasn> so, my point was that we actually are shipping themes with a varied panel background + that we have a "change the color" widget in the panel
<troy_s> andreasn: Change your icon theme to one that works better.
<andreasn> if we didn't have those preferences I would agree with you
<andreasn> but apparently we do
<troy_s> andreasn: What prefs?  Let them change it to something and have the icons disappear.
<andreasn> so I suggested we should provide something that's a bit harder to break
<troy_s> andreasn: Honestly, it is a completely foolish and ludicrous path to head down.  Rather like the photographer who wants to create a silhouette image and then worrying that the image doesn't work against a dark background.
<troy_s> andreasn: The result will inevitably be as clunky as the rest of the stroke obsessed icons out there.
<andreasn> would removing the panel properties window be a option?
<andreasn> + the appearence capplet?
<troy_s> andreasn: Off to work.  It is worrying about too much.  Worry about the prime aesthetic and let people who want black panels have a different theme.
<andreasn> but you need to worry about it, as we make it super-easy to break stuff
<andreasn> but yes, to some extent I agree
<troy_s> andreasn: Yeah making things breakable is part of the beauty of Linux in general.  sudo rm -rf * works too.
<troy_s> andreasn: But heck -- look at your sample and try to tell me that the rather elegant looking black on white isn't even remotely on the same page as the bulky black on black with white outline.
<troy_s> andreasn: The difference is night and day.  In that rather extreme example, we can assume that the icons 'work' in approximately 75% of the situations, with 25% falling into the 'not working'.  It is situational though and balanced against the aesthetic.
<troy_s> andreasn: Taken a step further, there are going to be icon themes that don't work with the overall 'tone' of the aesthetic direction of the desktop.  Another 'break' or just a simple reality that the look goes deeper than artificial 'rules'?
<andreasn> oh, but they are the same icons, the stroke is rather invisible on the light background, but in case you change your widget colors, the icons won't go invisible
<kwwii> andreasn: could you send me the mockup you made with the images embedded? I would like to include it in the presentation
<andreasn> kwwii: sure
<kwwii> andreasn: thanks man
<andreasn> kwwii: I'll just need to fix the laundry first
<kwwii> hehe, no hurry :-)
<kwwii> man, you do a lot of laundry
 * _MMA_ waves.
<kwwii> guten morgen mr metal music addict
 * _MMA_ wishes he could reply in German.
<_MMA_> And wouldnt it be heir not mr? :)
<_MMA_> (or something like that)
<andreasn> kwwii: actually not that much, I just chat about it a lot :)
<kwwii> very interesting stuff for conversation
<kwwii> herr metal musik abhÃ¤ngige
<_MMA_> :D
<andreasn> kwwii: theme-mockup.svg?
<kwwii> andreasn: yeah, the one that has the file browser, i think that was it
<andreasn> sent
<kwwii> andreasn: got it, thanks
<kwwii> andreasn: hrm, it is still missing quite a few of the pics...did you embed all the images?
<andreasn> I thought I did
<andreasn> hm
<andreasn> are you getting any images embedded?
<kwwii> http://sincera.de/Screenshot.png
<andreasn> Die angegebene Seite konnte nicht gefunden werden.
<andreasn> I sent it again, embedded the images again
<kwwii> http://sinecera.de/Screenshot.png
<_MMA_> kwwii: Is it possible to do the side pane the way you did? Without the handle and a different color from the main pane?
<kwwii> _MMA_: yes, it is possible I think
<_MMA_> In the theme or changes somewhere else? Outside of the theme was the only place I ever saw to do it.
<_MMA_> And that usually applies it to all themes.
<kwwii> the bg color works well already, the handle stuff would be coded
<_MMA_> Separating the 2 panes though? Separate colors? Ive never found a way to do in in a theme. Unless Cimi or someone codes it. :)
<kwwii> it works already, just set your nautilus bg to another color than the normal window bg
<andreasn> kwwii: weird that it embeds the folders, but not system, the phone etc
<kwwii> yeah, crazy
<_MMA_> kwwii: Sure, but that applies system-wide. I wonder if this could be added to an engine?
<kwwii> maybe it does not have the paths correctly
<kwwii> _MMA_: no idea
<_MMA_> So both options would need code. :(
<_MMA_> I wish we could define where new icons came up by default in gconf. Right now Nautilus controls that.
<kwwii> the more I theme gnome the more I find out how hard it is to do something really different :p
<_MMA_> Yep. We have our changes finished though. Ubuntu Studio now uses 1 panel.
<andreasn> kwwii: the one in the second mail didn't work either?
<kwwii> andreasn: haven't tested it yet, in a meeting atm
<andreasn> kwwii: hm, maybe it just works with stuff that's in the same directory or something
<kwwii> andreasn: nope, this time it worked
<andreasn> ah, good
<kwwii> check this out:  http://macslow.thepimp.net/clips/reflected-widgets-1.ogg
<andreasn> yeah, that was neat
<_MMA_> That man is damn crazy.
<_MMA_> Wow this is neat. Not some people's music but awesome concept. http://www.mudvayne.com/dullboy
<_MMA_> kwwii: I hope you're in #ubuntu-meeting.
<kwwii> _MMA_: yepp
<_MMA_> Ok. I came late. :)
<kwwii> you missed all the good stuff
<kwwii> we even mentioned ubuntu-studio
<andreasn> art meeting today?
<_MMA_> Dammit! Why didnt you tell me? :(
<kwwii> andreasn: nope the art meeting is on Saturday
<kwwii> today was the weekly desktop-team meeting
<andreasn> ah, ok. I hope I'll be able to attend
<kwwii> yeah, I hope you can be there too
<_MMA_> kwwii: How were we mentioned? Anything I need to be on top of?
<kwwii> no, we were just talking about variants being able to theme the one screensaver with the logo
<kwwii> and someone said "just do it like this, then ubuntu-studio or whoever can simply replace it"
<_MMA_> What? The floating logo screensaver?
 * kwwii has a smoke
<kwwii> yepp
<_MMA_> We already have a package for it.
<_MMA_> That was done for Feisty.
<kwwii> how do you package it, and does the ubuntu version still appear in the list?
<_MMA_> No.
<_MMA_> ubuntustudio-screensaver
<_MMA_> It was simple.
<BHSPitMonkey> kwwii, ping!
<kwwii> BHSPitMonkey: yo
<BHSPitMonkey> kwwii, I'm releasing a derived work which uses icons from Human;  Looking for info on fulfilling the license requirements
<BHSPitMonkey> And I hear you're the man to talk to :)
<kwwii> BHSPitMonkey: they should be cc-by-sa iirc
<BHSPitMonkey> right
<BHSPitMonkey> So I need to know how to by and sa in this case ^^
<kwwii> http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/2.0/
<kwwii> basically you are free to change things, you just need to include attribution from where they came from and use the same licence
<BHSPitMonkey> "You must attribute the work in the manner specified by the author or licensor"
<BHSPitMonkey> That's what I'm trying to hammer out
<_MMA_> Just mention the original author and have the same license.
<BHSPitMonkey> Do I need to include an AUTHORS file that lists out my sources and their authors?
<kwwii> _MMA_: well, we paid for a lot of them to be made
<_MMA_> kwwii: Oh yeah. I forgot they were made by Iconfactory.
<kwwii> I guess that some were made by the community but I have no idea who exactly
<BHSPitMonkey> Ouch
<_MMA_> But the same would still apply.
<kwwii> all of that work was before my time
<BHSPitMonkey> So I need to look at meta in every SVG I rendered, then?
<_MMA_> just look for the license files for the human set.
 * BHSPitMonkey slumps
<_MMA_> Synaptic will tell you where they are.
<BHSPitMonkey> The human package comes with a Copyright file which lists the authors and then has the legalese cc-by-sa
<kwwii> hrm, let me check this out
<_MMA_> You should be able to copy that and add yourself to the list of names.
<kwwii> well, neither daniel nor jeff ever made any of the icons themselves
<kwwii> not sure why jeff is included in any of this
<BHSPitMonkey> Yes, I found that out a few minutes ago when I contacted daniel :)
<BHSPitMonkey> Who bounced me your way
<kwwii> hehe, I should just bounce you back :p
<kwwii> trying to clear this up with daniel now
 * BHSPitMonkey gets out his special bouncing armor
<kwwii> so at this point, it looks like we should keep the two guys in the AUTHORS file and add my name
<kwwii> as I made some of the icons and packaged them
<_MMA_> kwwii: re: Screensaver. Even though Ubuntu has its image in gnome-screensaver it was easy to create our own. Its a simple image and .desktop file. Setting it as a default however is another matter. I think we had to set some gconf keys.
<kwwii> _MMA_: hrm, you should talk to ted gould on the desktop team about this...let him know your needs
<_MMA_> nick?
<kwwii> not sure of his nick...I think it is tedg
<kwwii> ted at ubuntu.com is his email address
<_MMA_> https://launchpad.net/~ted-gould
<BHSPitMonkey> I've been wondering this for some time now... Why is the Gutsy wallpaper named warty-final-ubuntu.png ?
<kwwii> _MMA_: exactly
<_MMA_> lol
<kwwii> BHSPitMonkey: because that is how they always did it and there is no way to change it now
<kwwii> basically that is the real reason they keep telling me
<_MMA_> BHSPitMonkey: Because changing it requires changes to configs.
<kwwii> we will change it this time around
<kwwii> it makes no sense what so ever
<_MMA_> And it would now break upgrades.
<kwwii> ubuntu-wallpaper would make so much more sense
<_MMA_> Just drop the "warty" part.
<kwwii> or that, right
<_MMA_> Hmm.. Ted dropped off IRC. Ill look for him later.
<kwwii> changing it now will mean breakage somewhere, but not doing it at some time makes no sense
<BHSPitMonkey> I personally agree with having the (correct) version name prepended/appened
<BHSPitMonkey> For the sake of having access to older wallpapers, and not having them collide
<kwwii> right, that is also a good point
<kwwii> but it makes updating much harder
<_MMA_> Art packs with older art would be a better idea IMO. That can flux while having the current releases naming remain constant.
<kwwii> I wish that more devs would get interested in this, as I do not have the time to figure this out on my own
<_MMA_> ubuntu-wallpaper.png would be the current wall but would change to ubuntu-wallpaper-hardy.png when moved to the art pack for the next release.
<_MMA_> kwwii: Ill help where I can as we have had to do the same thing.
<kwwii> _MMA_: more than anything else we just need people to help with the packaging
<_MMA_> kwwii: Its kinda crazy but as Ive dug deeper into things it really looks as though things are less concrete than I thought. Coming into development I thought things would have this whole structure and process setup. I was only half-right.
<_MMA_> So much of it I have found was just done "because".
<kwwii> hehe, totally true
<_MMA_> I'm sure we can get you some packaging help.
<BHSPitMonkey> Ha
<BHSPitMonkey> I like the description title for the gutsy-wallpapers package
<BHSPitMonkey> "Feisty Wallpapers"
<kwwii> oops, I probably missed that
<BHSPitMonkey> "Feisty Wallpapers   The default Wallpapers for Gutsy."
<BHSPitMonkey> :)
<BHSPitMonkey> kwwii, it's okay, nobody has to know...
 * BHSPitMonkey sweeps this one under the rug
<_MMA_> kwwii: Are you home?
<kwwii> _MMA_: nope, but am I my way home in a minute or so
<_MMA_> Ok. I want to Skype re:Packaging when you can.
<_MMA_> gah
<_MMA_> re: Packaging
<_MMA_> (stupid smilies)
<kwwii> _MMA_: I'll let you know as soon as I am home
<_MMA_> np
<BHSPitMonkey> Okay... I'm using the icons -and- the wallpaper, both of which come in ubuntu with by-sa licenses
<BHSPitMonkey> So my game plan is to just release by-sa, include the Copyright file, and merge the author names into one list?
<BHSPitMonkey> kwwii, right?  :)
<_MMA_> He might be traveling now.
<_MMA_> Wait aroud.
<_MMA_> *around
<kwwii> BHSPitMonkey: sounds like a good idea
<kwwii> for your part, that is all you can really do...every other problem is up to us to fix
<BHSPitMonkey> kwwii, want me to add you to that list?
<kwwii> BHSPitMonkey: yes, please
<kwwii> Kenneth Wimer kwwii at ubuntu dot com
<BHSPitMonkey> thanks
<BHSPitMonkey> that address will be @'ed for uniformity :P
<BHSPitMonkey> kwwii, in the Copyright file, there are paragraphs outside of the license that talk about packaging, and that state the Ubuntu copyright
<BHSPitMonkey> Scrap the packaging, leave the copyright?
<kwwii> yeah, exactly
<BHSPitMonkey> should your name be listed in respect to the wallpaper also, kwwii
<kwwii> yes, but more important is Joseph Connors (I think he is already in it)
<kwwii> BHSPitMonkey: this should be in the AUTHORS file for the wallpaper package
<kwwii> Damian Vila <damianvila@gmail.com>
<kwwii> Joseph Connors <josephconnors@gmail.com>
<kwwii> Kenneth Wimer <kenneth.wimer@ubuntu.com>
<kwwii> Jeff Waugh <jdub@perkypants.org>
<kwwii> Daniel Holbach <daniel.holbach@ubuntu.com>
<BHSPitMonkey> and all the names go under the section "Upstream Author" in the Copyright file?
<BHSPitMonkey> yes, I have that file open as well
<BHSPitMonkey> I notice the Copyright authors don't match the AUTHORS authors
<kwwii> hrm, I wonder how that copyright file is created
<kwwii> as it is not in the package itself
<kwwii> it must be created later somehow
<BHSPitMonkey> ... yes, it is...
<kwwii> hrm, I wonder how that happens
<BHSPitMonkey> it's in /usr/share/doc/packagename in both debs
<Burgundavia> kwwii: did you get my ping about emailing fridge-devel about meetings?
<kwwii> Burgundavia: nope, didn't see that
<BHSPitMonkey> or am I understanding you wrong
<kwwii> BHSPitMonkey: I mean that it is not in the bzr repo of the source code
<BHSPitMonkey> gotcha
<Burgundavia> kwwii: basically, when you announce a meeting, cc it to fridge-devel@lists.ubuntu.com
<kwwii> Burgundavia: cool, I'll do that in the future, thanks
<Burgundavia> no worries
<BHSPitMonkey> kwwii, Copyright : http://bhspitmonkey.pastebin.com/m6a2e84b6
<BHSPitMonkey> kwwii, AUTHORS : http://bhspitmonkey.pastebin.com/d1018dcaa
<BHSPitMonkey> look all right?  (Thanks for helping me through this, by the way :)
<kwwii> BHSPitMonkey: looks good to me
<BHSPitMonkey> kwwii, are just having the files in the package enough?  In the package management deal this is going to, there's a description and an optional installation pop-up message
<BHSPitMonkey> I guess it is enough, that's how the package comes in ubuntu
<kwwii> yeah, I think it is enough
<BHSPitMonkey> kwwii, great
<BHSPitMonkey> kwwii, now I get to go through this whole process again with the Tango people ;)
<BHSPitMonkey> theming is hard!
<kwwii> :p
<kwwii> hey, it is just artwork!
<kwwii> that is what everyone says until they actually do it
<BHSPitMonkey> yeah, and a bunch of baggage
<BHSPitMonkey> curse this world and its barriers to innovation!
<BHSPitMonkey> innovation and iPhone skins!
<kwwii> hehe
<_MMA_> kwwii: When you get a chance look back in -desktop re: fading wallpapers.
<kwwii> _MMA_: dude, how do you set up an external monitor?
<_MMA_> Well that the 10k question isnt it. ;)
<_MMA_> Do you want a higher res or just a mirror?
<_MMA_> displayconfig-gtk should be of some help.
<_MMA_> Ill be back in a bit. Im in the middle of lunch/cleaning.
<kwwii> I want to do the full 1920 on the new 24"
<_MMA_> You got it?
<kwwii> yeah, I am not good at waiting
<_MMA_> lol. Its there now?
<kwwii> so on the way back from taking my son to basketball I picked one up
<_MMA_> lol!
<_MMA_> I gotta see. It really depends on the GFX card.
<kwwii> I bought a hyundai 24" with 2ms reaction time, 3000 contrast and 400 brightness
<_MMA_> but Ill be back.
<kwwii> ok, see you around
<BHSPitCSP> kwwii: yo
<kwwii> BHSPitCSP: hey
<BHSPitCSP> kwwii: I'm probably worrying too much, but before I send this theme in I wanted to know about the name issue...
<kwwii> BHSPitCSP: what exactly do you mean?
<BHSPitCSP> I know Ubuntu doesn't look kindly upon name-twisting when it comes to Ubuntu spin-offs
<kwwii> explain the situation to me and perhaps I can give you advice
<BHSPitCSP> it's that program theme I'm making, which uses ubuntu icons and wallpaper (which we had a lengthy discussion about earlier :)
<_MMA_> BHSPitCSP: And? (or are you a slow typer?)
<BHSPitCSP> _MMA_: sorry, highlights don't work on this nick, and I had something else open
<BHSPitCSP> and I'm just trying to name it appropriately.
<_MMA_> But you havnt said what the problem is.
<_MMA_> Just lay it all out. Dont make us dig. ;)
<BHSPitCSP> _MMA_: Problem: Coming up with a title for an Ubuntu-based iPhone theme is hard when the Ubuntu Trademark rules are hazy.
<_MMA_> As you are just doing this as a "community" thing, you will be fine. Just mention the proper authors.
<BHSPitCSP> _MMA_: we spent plenty of time ensuring that task this morning, remember? :)
<_MMA_> SO then there's no issue.
<_MMA_> *so
<_MMA_> gah
<_MMA_> *So
<BHSPitCSP> So
<BHSPitCSP> Happen to have any clever name ideas?  :P
<BHSPitCSP> iPhuntu just seems lazy.
<_MMA_> As I have my own things like that to worry about, no. ;) Its all you.
<BHSPitCSP> Heh.
<BHSPitCSP> maybe the Human Touch
 * _MMA_ is AFK.
<kwwii> BHSPitCSP: I think you can use something like Ubuntu-Human
<kwwii> or Human Touch
<kwwii> just make sure that Human and if possible Ubuntu shows up
<kwwii> _MMA_: by the way, my laptop is only 10.6"
<kwwii> just measured it
<kwwii> so I went from 10.6" to 24"
<BHSPitCSP> I think Human Touch might be more clever in this case
<kwwii> no matter what you name it, you should mention that it came from ubuntu somehow, somewhere
<kwwii> yeah, sounds good
<BHSPitCSP> well
<kwwii> as long as you continue the same licence everything is fine
<BHSPitCSP> it'll say Human Touch, and the description will say Theme based upon artwork from Ubuntu (www.ubuntu.com).
<BHSPitCSP> something along that line
<kwwii> sounds perfect
<kwwii> I think that you have no reasons to worry, but if you want me to check and ask mark I can, I am sure he would love the idea
<BHSPitCSP> That sounds like overkill :)
<BHSPitCSP> If there ends up being a problem, I'll update the package
<BHSPitCSP> Now, if you want to ask him about paying my tuition, that'd be okay
<kwwii> yes, probably so, and I do not see any problem with your idea but if it would make you feel better I would
<kwwii> hehe
<kwwii> that is a different matter
<BHSPitCSP> I'm fine
<kwwii> cool, if anything comes up, no matter what, I'll back you up
<BHSPitCSP> I like doing things the "right" way, and this was my first occasion with licensing riffraff
<kwwii> yeah, I know the fears of licencing
<BHSPitCSP> so I wanted to be sure I was thorough :)
<kwwii> you have definitely been thorough
<BHSPitCSP> it's not like this is going on the market or something
<kwwii> if there is a problem it lies on what I said, not what you did
<BHSPitCSP> well, the thing is, a "problem" wouldn't likely be lawyers or militants at my doorstep
<kwwii> nope, in any case, if there was a problem they would ask me why I told you it was ok
<kwwii> :p
<BHSPitCSP> it would be an e-mail, I'd do what it said, end of story
<kwwii> and I would explain the situation and it would all work itself out
<BHSPitCSP> and we'd all have pizza and cake
<kwwii> no worries, trust me
<BHSPitCSP> I'm not worried
<kwwii> exactly
 * BHSPitCSP invents Caked Pizza
<kwwii> lol, like the deep-fried snickers
<BHSPitCSP> take a 14" round slab of cake, cover the top in rich, tomatoey icing, and top with meats and cheeses
<BHSPitCSP> mmmmmmmm
<kwwii> hehe
 * _MMA_ does his best Steve Perry impression and rawks out to â« Separate Ways âª.
 * BHSPitCSP rocks out to Chocolate Rain
<kwwii> hehe
<_MMA_> *sigh* kids have no taste.
#ubuntu-artwork 2007-11-30
<troseph> _MMA_, did you see the new DIY gdm? Is that more what you were thinking?
<troseph> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/Artwork/DIYConcept/GDM
 * _MMA_ looks.
<troseph> :)
<_MMA_> Looking very cool. I will say however that the concept has been delayed from being used in Hardy. I will email you what Im working on now. It more in line with your original but might need some tweaks. That is, if you still wanna do it. :)
<troseph> _MMA_ yes sir. You've got my help. :) And on that note, let me know what you think of this one: http://ubgdm.notlong.com
<_MMA_> troseph: And I prefer you not make them that public (on Deviantart) until we decide whats gonna be used. I dont wanna throw everything out there only to release 5 months later and its stale.
<Toma-> heh
<troseph> _MMA_ sounds good.
<_MMA_> troseph: I like the layout but the background images will need some work. I'm trying to use more photography. Im waiting on some emails but Ill send you what Im currently working on so you can get a better idea. Ill do that tomorrow as Im doing the family thing atm.
<Toma-> _MMA_â are you still around?
<_MMA_> kinda.
<_MMA_> Just for a second.
<Toma-> still working on a punk thing right?
<_MMA_> Yes, but it wont make Hardy.
<Toma-> OK.
<Toma-> im ripping Glossy P to shreds and making a pixmap based gtk theme
<Toma-> just for the hell of it
<_MMA_> ok.
 * _MMA_ goes back to the family.
<Toma-> :P
<troy_s> kwwii: WTF are you doing with the trash applet in the upper panel?
<_MMA_> Stealing my ideas.
<_MMA_> :P
<_MMA_> Though, I cant actually find a pic where he does it.
<troy_s> _MMA_: It was shite.
<troy_s> _MMA_: The point is that with AWN you don't need one. ;)
<_MMA_> You can have it on your own shite-assed desktop. We ain't shipping it. But you are gonna do my new Usplash. :P
<troy_s> _MMA_: I only do usplashes of the things I do the rest of.  Besides, to be absolutely honest, I would not know where to start brainstorming a usplash for it -- well at least until the wallpaper came along.
<troy_s> _MMA_: I honestly don't think the photos are the way to go for DIY... you have such a rich opportunity to capitalize on the silhouetted shapes trend and mix it up with DIY -- the result should be pretty stellar.
<_MMA_> I already have a mock-up you control-freak.
<_MMA_> troy_s: I told you I dropped DIY for Hardy. Photo use isnt for DIY.
<troy_s> _MMA_: Animatic?
<troy_s> _MMA_: And I had no idea you dropped DIY
<troy_s> _MMA_: When did that happen and why?  There is still quite a bit of time and (icons aside) I can see no reason why it wouldn't be doable.
<_MMA_> huh? We talked about it. You even said it was good I saw that I will still stay with it.
<_MMA_> s/saw/said
<troy_s> _MMA_: Oh heck -- I thought you were more _IF_ you couldn't make it happen.
<troy_s> _MMA_: I had no clue that you were making a decision.
<_MMA_> Oh no. I _know_ I cant make it happen now. I simply dont have the time doing it pretty much by myself.
<_MMA_> Hey, there's wedderbiscuit.
<wedderburn> tis :), hows the art going in US?
<_MMA_> Slowly.
<_MMA_> DIY has been dropped due to my art team abandoning me.
<_MMA_> But will continue to be developed for Hardy+1.
<wedderburn> you got a new art team?
 * _MMA_ looks around.
 * _MMA_ then points at himself.
<wedderburn> lol
<wedderburn> oh daer
<wedderburn> dear**
<troy_s> _MMA_: Sooooooooooooooooooooo in the vacuum of style, where are you now and where is this 'mock'?
<wedderburn> i didn't think the DIY look was going to go down well
<_MMA_> troy_s: Ill send you the mockup and my theme.
<_MMA_> wedderburn: It will go over fine.
<Toma-> put it on the wiki?
<_MMA_> *When* I get it done.
<troy_s> wedderburn: Yeah I don't think I could disagree with you more on that point.  DIY is almost the perfect pairing for something as 'underground' and 'rebellious' as Ubuntu Studio and the audience that would potentially be able to maximize use from it.
<_MMA_> wedderburn: Its just sad you bailed on me over it. I was sure from the moment you left that was why. Too bad you just didnt say.
<darkmatter> troy_s: bah
<wedderburn> i left because of lack of time, also didn't like the direction it was going in, replacing the intire icon set wasn't something i was up for doing
<troy_s> darkmatter: ?
<_MMA_> wedderburn: I believe the latter was the real reason.
<darkmatter> troy_s: you and you're 'buzzwords'
<troy_s> darkmatter: Yikes.  Never knew I used buzzwords.  Unfortunately my lexicon is a little rooted in my past.
<troy_s> _MMA_: I chatted with the guy who did these folders (which in my opinion are damn terrific) http://kde-look.org/content/preview.php?preview=1&id=38254&file1=38254-1.png&file2=&file3=&name=Some+more+SVG+Icons
<darkmatter> troy_s: yeah "underground' and 'rebellious' is something I dont really id with ubuntustudio. its just another studio. just minus the need to install half the extras
<troy_s> _MMA_: they are elegant (subtle curves here and there and the outright avoiding of that shitey outline trend) and quite beautifully crafted.
<_MMA_> darkmatter: Then you wouldnt be our target audience. ;)
<troy_s> darkmatter: The belief being that realistically -- an independent band type scenario is probably one of the audience groups that would _maximize_ the work presented in Ubuntu Studio.
<_MMA_> troy_s: Those are _very_ nice.
<troy_s> _MMA_: Goes to show you what a default folder can do for your desktop.
<troy_s> _MMA_: Of course, if it were uh... usabilitized it would end up a square at 48x48 with a big hideous glowing orange outline on it or something equally perfect.
<_MMA_> Sure. So my current plan was to help with Ubuntu's icons and branch from there.
<wedderburn> so you take a niche and slice it into another niche by having a desktop that would appeal to only a small % of users
<troy_s> wedderburn: Hardly.  You take a massive number of people who don't have a fecking clue what is available and present it to them in a visual styling that is contemporary and probably speaks to their independence.
<_MMA_> wedderburn: I'm for taking chances. That what the DIY thing is for sure. In any case, people can change the theme.
<troy_s> wedderburn: _THAT_ attitude is the _EXACT_ shitey one that the FOSS geniuses use to further propel us into the dark ages.
<troy_s> wedderburn: When _I_ speak of audience, I speak of the audience that doesn't use FOSS / Ubuntu.  Those are the _only_ people who matter.
<troy_s> wedderburn: If Ubuntu is strong enough as a distribution, the current users will use it and warp it to their rather liking.
<troy_s> wedderburn: To be honest, I could give a rat's ass about the bulk of the current users of FOSS.
<_MMA_> troy_s: I dont agree completely but I know what you mean.
<troy_s> wedderburn: They are (by and large minus a relativley new influx) the same people who vote the OSX clones and Ninja Manga themes to the top of gnome-look and kde-look.  It makes me laugh when people cite the voting percentage of those sites as even remotely credible.
<Toma-> i think the DIY theme would appeal greatly to people that are stuck in the normal ubuntu/vista/mac type of themes frame of mind. something outrageous like a DIY theme would generate huge amounts of publicity. good and possibly bad. :)
<_MMA_> troy_s: New theme idea for hardy coming at you.
<_MMA_> (email)
<Toma-> _MMA_â Whens the wiki going up? :/
<_MMA_> Toma-: Sure, and I'm willing to take that hit.
<_MMA_> Its already there. Just moved.
<Toma-> thanks!
<_MMA_> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/Artwork/DIYConcept
<Toma-> i mean the new theme concept
<_MMA_> Oh that, I pretty much have most of that under control.
<_MMA_> I want to use pics for wallpapers and the like.
<troy_s> _MMA_: You get demerits -- you didn't put it in a folder... grr.
<_MMA_> No. It extracts to one.
<Toma-> _MMA_â yeh about that...
<Toma-> Would you be willing to think about a cool photo of something and have a really good manipulation of it?
<_MMA_> troy_s: This is one we're looking at.
<Toma-> im thinking about those old russian photoshop jobs
<Toma-> to take something and make it incredible abstract
<_MMA_> Toma-: Sure. Ill look at whatever from you.
<troy_s> _MMA_: No theme dir -- cant' install via appearances.
<Toma-> IM not very good at it but i can get some ideas rolling :)
<_MMA_> troy_s: bah. Suck it up.
<troy_s> _MMA_: Trying... can't get the sucker to inst.
<_MMA_> Extract it, then drop it in .themes.
<_MMA_> (should extract to a folder)
<troy_s> _MMA_: It needs a subdir...
<troy_s> _MMA_: .themes/blahtheme
<troy_s> _MMA_: which is what i am creating.
<_MMA_> Yes.
<_MMA_> Right-click and extracting will create a dir.
<troy_s> _MMA_: hrm... dont' see much difference.
<troy_s> _MMA_: although i don't have the windeco as i am running emerald.
<_MMA_> That is one change. Turn off emerald.
<_MMA_> The theme is alot flatter.
<_MMA_> Highlight colors are changed. Mouse-over used to go darker. Now goes lighter. A usability issue or two fixed.
<_MMA_> Side-by-side with the Feisty theme you would easily see it.
<troy_s> _MMA_: Yeah ... Not familiar.  Not a huge fan of Murrine and the outline hell.  Glider is what I have been using of late.
<_MMA_> Sure.
<_MMA_> troy_s: This is another photo Im trying to get. http://flickr.com/photos/3rdfoundation/291470015
<_MMA_> troy_s: And this is just a quick, simple mock-up of what I was thinking for Usplash. http://img259.imageshack.us/img259/1029/ubuntustudiohardyusplasft5.png
<troseph> that is nice
<_MMA_> Which? I posted a couple of links.
<Toma-> usplash looks interesting
 * Toma- wishes you could get a theme to stay from usplash to desktop
<troy_s> _MMA_: Surely you can do better than yet another shitey Ubuntu progress bar, no?
<troy_s> ;)
<_MMA_> With my limited help/experience, no.
<_MMA_> It would be another story if its all I had to do.
<troy_s> _MMA_: hrm...
<Toma-> troy_sâ can you get like a fade in effect from usplash?
<troy_s> Toma-: Uh... you can do what you like really.  If you add in alpha blending and such yes.
<Toma-> so usplash just piles images ontop of itself basically?
<_MMA_> troy_s: So you gonna do it or no?
<troy_s> _MMA_: As in eek out that progress bar?
<troy_s> Toma-: No, you are only limited by what / how you want to do something.
<troy_s> Toma-: Plus the obvious performance hit.
<_MMA_> As in create a Usplash for us.
<Toma-> i see
<_MMA_> troy_s ?
<troy_s> _MMA_: Sorry... with daughter.  What is the default wallpaper / theme ?
<troy_s> _MMA_: I could certainly do something assuming I can grab onto what you are aiming for with this release.
<_MMA_> Lemmie get what might be it.
<_MMA_> Here's one we might ship, thought not default. http://flickr.com/photos/3rdfoundation/291470015
<_MMA_> troy_s: This might be default.
<_MMA_> http://flickr.com/photos/jaako/508926598/
<_MMA_> So maybe I could show progression on a VU meter?
<_MMA_> Thats a idea.
<troy_s> _MMA_: Yes that was the initial thought.
<troy_s> _MMA_: Need to think up something that seems interesting or clever and build from that.
<_MMA_> Hmm... Ill work on that tomorrow as well.
 * _MMA_ -> TV.
<darkmatter> troy_s: https://www.nextgendesigncomp.com/Default.aspx
<darkmatter> http://2006winners.nextgendesigncomp.com/Images/Entries/980/f677ad3a-fb69-4990-b9b4-1063677b3bd0/EntryKit_Compressed_Images/page_01.jpg
<darkmatter> troy_s: design patterns hit yast http://en.opensuse.org/Image:Ycc_yoogle_start_it1.png
<darkmatter> YOOGLE.. LAWL
<kwwii> wow, yast still uses the logo I made like 5 years ago
<darkmatter> kwwii: yes, but now its tangoed. so its 5 years old and meant for preschoolers ;)
<kwwii> lol
<darkmatter> kwwii: have you seen the Yoogle concept yet?
<darkmatter> http://files.opensuse.org/opensuse/en/2/21/Ycc_yoogle_start_it1.png
<kwwii> darkmatter: yeah, I saw that
<darkmatter> silliness
<kwwii> I doubt that it would help anyone really get to anything faster
<darkmatter> kwwii: indeed. I'm surprised the fella that did that mockup didn't suggest css support ;)
<kwwii> :p
<kwwii> do you know who made that?
<darkmatter> nope
<darkmatter> didn't check
<kwwii> I probably hired the person who made that :p
<darkmatter> LOL
<kwwii> _MMA_: is a geek
<_MMA_> Yep. 24" LCDs = Geeky. ;)
<_MMA_> Quicky VU meter Usplash mockup. http://img57.imageshack.us/img57/6849/vusplashmockupup1.png
<_MMA_> (needle would sweep from left to right.)
<Toma-> not a fan of the 2 logos
<Toma-> looks awesome otherwise
<kwwii> _MMA_: wow, pretty good start
<_MMA_> Yeah. Just working on elements.
<_MMA_> Ill add some gradients and things to make it look a little more real.
<kwwii> man, this damn presentation is going to kill me
<_MMA_> :D
<_MMA_> Can I have your LCD?
<kwwii> sure, come around to my house and pick it up
 * _MMA_ hops on a plane.
<bersace> troy_s, kwwii : Hi !!! :)
<bersace> You can't imagine what i'm hacking nowadays :D
<bersace> http://bersace03.free.fr/pub/tmp/windfarm-pm121.patch
<bersace> :)
<kwwii> hrm? what is that?
<kwwii> hi, btw
<bersace> that's the preliminary Linux driver for iMac G5 iSight
<bersace> !
<kwwii> lol, killer
<bersace> :D
<bersace> well, i don't find it low-level enough
<bersace> it's just a policy driver
<bersace> not a real hard-ware driver
 * bersace remember trying to reverse engineer a windows driver for a scanner â¦
<bersace> i gave up
<andreasn> bersace: was it for HP ScanJet 2400?
<bersace> no
<bersace> andreasn: a dump I.R.I.S. scanner which was in fact a PandP. Co. scanner
<bersace> very low price and quality
<bersace> finaly i send it to plustek driver developer
<bersace> well
<andreasn> I totally need to pay someone to fix a driver for my ScanJet scanner
<bersace> i'll go out for skateboarding :)
<bersace> see you soon
<andreasn> hm, I need to learn how to do textures http://www.flickr.com/photos/jakubsteiner/2075422487/in/set-72157594445393899/
<kwwii> wow, that looks pretty nice
<kwwii> good to see that jakkub is learning from oxygen :p
<kwwii> lol
<kwwii> his ear is probably bleeding right now
<andreasn> I assume it's totally on purpose
<andreasn> just takes ages to draw stuff so detailed
<andreasn> and we don't even have coverflow :)
<kwwii> it does take much more time per icon
<andreasn> well, if you charge your work per hour... :)
<kwwii> lol, yeah
<_MMA_> vUsplash update: http://img126.imageshack.us/img126/2411/vusplashmockupwi9.png
<kwwii> look like it is getting better :-)
<_MMA_> I *think* so. I just removed the "communication" text.
<_MMA_> Still feels kinda sparse but they are like that. :-/
<kwwii> seems like it needs a bit of reflection and shadow on the glass
<kwwii> but it looks pretty cool
<_MMA_> vUsplash update 2: http://img91.imageshack.us/img91/8532/vusplashmockupaa4.png
#ubuntu-artwork 2007-12-01
<Danny> hey
<andreasn> artwork meeting in 2,5 hours, right?
<kwwii> andreasn: right
<andreasn> great, always tricky with UTC time-things, even though I noticed there was a link on the wiki page :)
<kwwii> yeah, you never feel quite safe, eh?
<andreasn> exactly :)
<thorwil> kwwii: regarding tricky utc, wasn't it 3.5 hours from the point of asking?
<thorwil> andreasn: today i learned of a nice command you can use in #ubuntu-meeting:" @schedule city-in-your-time-zone"
<andreasn> thorwil: oh, sweet
<kwwii> thorwil: it is 3.8 where I am at but probably 3.5 in your country :p
 * _MMA_ thinks everyone should just have 2 clocks in their panel with one set to UTC and be done with it.
<kwwii> officially, as of now, it is in 1:40min
<_MMA_> Yep
<thorwil> kwwii: heh, and here i thought it would be the same 'distance' for everyone
<kwwii> well, for some it is in their head and for others in it only in a webpage
<kwwii> so unless your head is *really* close to your monitor....
<_MMA_> kwwii: I think Mark should really be in this meeting. Even if you still have that meeting in a couple of days. So at least he could then hear _some_ of the ideas from the people who bother to show.
<thorwil> if that intlclock applet thing has some kind of utc mark / support?
<kwwii> _MMA_: I think he should be in the next one ;-)
<_MMA_> thorwil: Other it actually has no UTS support atm. :(
<_MMA_> gah
<_MMA_> Strike out that "Other"
<thorwil> got it even with
<thorwil> :)
<thorwil> _MMA_: if that was my mark, i wouldn't want to expose him to the unfiltered noise ;)
<_MMA_> jacstro said it will be merged with the current clock for GNOME 2.22.
<andreasn> _MMA_:_ time-zone thingy in gnome 2.22 will probably take care of that
<_MMA_> thorwil: Naa.. Its gonna be a ghost town in there. All the normal heads. Wont be alot of noise.
<andreasn> ah, yes, intclock, that's the name
<thorwil> _MMA_: hmm ... right, it isn't the mailing list :)
<troy_s> thorwil: He used to read the mailing list.  That said, he is far too busy these days to be involved with much of anything.
<deezid_> hi
<deezid_> am I too late?
<deezid_> what happened here before? :D
<deezid_> art.ubuntu.com seems to be down, did anything happen at this meeting?
 * troy_s falls over with a thud.
<derQ> iirc it's 19utc so one hour to go
<deezid_> I thought it's already UTC+1 (MEZ)?
<thorwil> i'll be gone, hunting food. but in the meantime, you might enjoy: http://thorwil.wordpress.com/2007/12/01/ubuntu-login-screen/
<deezid_> I like the idea of these thumbnails
<deezid_> but it's too dark and brownish on my eyes
<deezid_> ah ok, read it
<deezid_> And one thing I would like to change, is to remove the top bar in ubuntu :)
<deezid_> Since widescreen lcds are becoming much more popular, we should use another solution
<deezid_> maybe something  like gnome-main-menu, vertical bars, etc...
<deezid_> so I don't think we should introduce a top par in gdm
<deezid_> have you seen Fedora 8s' GDM. looks great I think
<troy_s> looks like shite.
<troy_s> fedora 8 is the worst case of regression that i have seen in many many many years.
<deezid_> mhh
<troy_s> deezid_: Diana did some _amazing_ work with Fedora up to and including 7.  Since her departure, Fedora has demonstrated the complete inability to draw a reasonable progression out of her legacy.
<deezid_> do you have a link to her work? I have not seen it yet...
<troy_s> deezid_: Fedora 5/6/7
<troy_s> deezid_: Let me find the 7 work
<deezid_> ah ok
<deezid_> http://people.redhat.com/dfong/fc7graphics/ ?
<troy_s> weird her blog appears to have gone.
<troy_s> yes
<troy_s> but her blog had a better evolutionary display of the work
<troy_s> her progression with Fedora was nothing short of remarkable, and I imagine she was met with the same degree of resistance from 'those that know better'
<troy_s> that said, the management at Fedora should have shut up and given her the keys to the car to see what she would have done with it.
<troy_s> as a simple test, look what happens when you yank out any degree of motif / communication and wrap it up with dull monotonous presentation -- side by side F7 with F8
<troy_s> deezid_: http://www.isity.net/blog/?p=60
<deezid_> much more colorful compared to F8. F8 looks boring compared to F7
<deezid_> mhh
<troy_s> deezid_: ;)
<troy_s> deezid_: The power of a little colour contrast
<deezid_> ubuntu needs more contrast, too
<troy_s> deezid_: You can see how, coupled with the overarching motif (the balloon) and the general communication (lofty / airy / floaty) an actual palette of color goes a _long_ way.
<deezid_> I like the idea of orange and black combined
<deezid_> hope that it won't get too dark
<troy_s> deezid_: Completely 100% agree, and it has been noted.  Unfortunately, I stated that god knows how long ago and kwwii is still fighting to try and get some degree of contrast.
<deezid_> won't become too dark... :D
<troy_s> deezid_: The main thing is to try and get a complimentary colour into a desktop.
<troy_s> deezid_: If you compare monochromatic palettes (usually color x on black or color x on white) you can see a greater impression made with color x / compliment as the compliment will highlight color x's intensity / feel.
<troy_s> deezid_: Given the context of a full blown desktop look, we can see the impact of monotony by looking at the Ubuntu walls of the past -- they are hideous.
<deezid_> yes they are
<deezid_> we need something new :)
<troy_s> deezid_: Compare with say, F7's work and you get the twofold bang out of having a real concept that instills emotion coupled with a rather impressive display of tone through the color variations.
<troy_s> deezid_: Not just new.
<troy_s> deezid_: New doing the same garbage and idiotic mistakes over and over again is worthless.
<deezid_> vista already has it :D
<deezid_> lol
<troy_s> deezid_:  Vista does their own thing.  That said Vista's default wallpaper (as does Leopard's) do the 'right thing'
<deezid_> true
<troy_s> deezid_: Vista's garbage plasticy packaging and hideously dated glossy bits are ... yikes.
<deezid_> even Apple seems to copy it...
<troy_s> deezid_: No.  Apple's design for Leopard is quite clever.
<deezid_> it looks a bit spacy
<troy_s> deezid_: Their entire presentation is schemed around their 'killer feature' (*sigh* backup)
<deezid_> i think
<troy_s> deezid_: Of course
<deezid_> hehe
<troy_s> deezid_: It is space with godrays to sell the time machine
<deezid_> nice
<deezid_> :D
<troy_s> deezid_: Their audio in the visual presentation also uses the motif -- backmasked music etc
<troy_s> deezid_: The entire 'space / time machine' motif extends through all of their release packaging.
<deezid_> so we need a new motif?
<deezid_> no
<troy_s> deezid_: What do we need?  I would probably start with 1) A motif for the release (which is a big ball of communication goal wrapped in there) 2) A non monochromatic palette 3) Visual styling that sells 1
<deezid_> the ubuntu 'human' motif seems to be a limit..?!
<deezid_> ah
<troy_s> deezid_: Not at all.  It has _never_ been human.
<deezid_> true (mostly brown)
<troy_s> deezid_: It has been a bland 'we don't want to make a statement' since the dawn of Ubuntu (with Warty and Hoary actually having signs of life)
<troy_s> deezid_: Ignore the colour.
<deezid_> a new color palette would be good start of course
<troy_s> deezid_: Colour is just an extension of thematic.  In a vacuum, all colours are awful.
<deezid_> that's true
<troy_s> deezid_: New palette is worthless without the other elements.  They mean nothing.
<deezid_> we need a new gtk-theme, metacity, gdm, built on a new wider motif? right?
<troy_s> deezid_:  In the end, getting management to be willing to make a statement is about 50% of the task at hand.  The other 50% is preparing for failure.  Hell -- Windows and Apple still make mistakes.  Ubuntu art and design will too.
<deezid_> (sry for my bad english)
<troy_s> deezid_: Huge task.  It is what kwwii is working towards I believe.  It is a massive task to achieve that.  Possible, but quite large.
<deezid_> but it should be done at least
<deezid_> ubuntu looks quite boring in these times :(
<deezid_> its nice to work with of course... ;)
<troy_s> deezid_: Boring is relative.  It certainly leaves a lot to be desired to be welcome in many people's living rooms.
<deezid_> so blue is simply outdated :D
<deezid_> as the main color
<troy_s> deezid_: Well... overly used and the reasoning completely flawed.
<deezid_> true
<troy_s> deezid_: Although _that_ was said god knows how many times before.  Only now that the big boys move away from it
<troy_s> deezid_: Is that our little culture seems to agree.
<troy_s> deezid_: We had a few vocal types who tried to keep away from blue.
<troy_s> deezid_: For good reason.
<deezid_> good to know
<troy_s> deezid_: Blue is as bad as getting rid of brown.  Brown is just soooooo pathetically used in Ubuntu with a single tone that it is awful.
<deezid_> RIGHT!!!
<deezid_> it's to much
<troy_s> deezid_: But the colour itself is soooo extremely fresh for design.  It gets slammed because of the useless application of it.
<deezid_> (did I understand you?)
<deezid_> right
<troy_s> deezid_: I am a huge +1 for brown, but not as it is used now.
<deezid_> I love brown
<deezid_> as I'm already using it in my living room
<deezid_> ;)
<troy_s> deezid_: Many people do
<deezid_> yeah
<deezid_> at least here
<deezid_> ^^
<thorwil> plop
<deezid_> hi
<lapo_> hi
<thorwil> troy_s: i agree. especially on getting a complementary colour in
<deezid_> brown<>blue?
<thorwil> no
<deezid_> ok
<thorwil> deezid_: eh, read that wrong
<thorwil> deezid_: but colour names just don't do it, anyway ;)
<deezid_> hehe
<troy_s> deezid_: Yep
<troy_s> deezid_: A very popular tone compliment with brown (and it is huge right now) is the lighter blue.
<troy_s> deezid_: But a full desktop needs quite a degree of variety
<deezid_> that works great
<troy_s> deezid_: As it is a huge element and needs as much detail to sell a pattern.
<deezid_> ok
<troy_s> deezid_: brown / blue works well and is pretty simple compliment theory.
<troy_s> deezid_: The other option is to use a triplet triangle.
<deezid_> do you mean 3 main colours?
<kwwii> *meeting in 5 min in #ubuntu-meeting*
<deezid_> a bright blue could look refreshing combined with brown
<deezid_> orange works also works great with a bright blue
<troy_s> deezid_: orange / brown are more or less sitting in the same neighborhood -- so blue (differing values) works with both -- a simple compliment.
<thorwil> kwwii: may i remind you of turning that logging facility on, this time? :)
<kwwii> thorwil: yeah
<kwwii> meeting now, be there or be square
<zazaza123> did i just miss the team meeting?
<zazaza123> i know that my time is off utc by 1hr, not sure which way
<andreasn> zazaza123: we're in the middle of it, #ubuntu-meeting
<zazaza123> thanks
<deezid_> example? :D
<thorwil> nothlit: yaya. i'm not a fan of gloss all over the place. i'm just surprised to have backlit glass combined with low gloss as concept
<deezid_> what is backlit glass?
<deezid_> (pretty bad english here) :D
<thorwil> deezid_: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Incoming/HardyDesign, below Concepts
<deezid_> thx
<thorwil> deezid_: well, it actually says glass being lit from below
<kwwii> hrm, something like this perhaps.... http://sinecera.de/theme_idea3a.png
<kwwii> or http://sinecera.de/apps_0.3.png
<deezid_> ah ok
<troy_s> and by 'gloss' we are talking that bloody nasty curved white gradient (which is a dimestore variant of the more well executed and complex versions with more than a simple grad)
<deezid_> bablefished it :)
<troy_s> wet floors and gloss... yikes.
<thorwil> i'm speechless
<kwwii> ?
<thorwil> lets just say that http://sinecera.de/apps_0.3.png is very harsh. i wouldn't stand that 1 minute on my desktop
<kwwii> lol, it is just a mockup
<luisbg> thorwil, depends on how much you use your icons
<luisbg> in ubuntu studio we are getting rid of desktop icons
<nothlit> the actual ubuntu mobile is significantly different?
<thorwil> luisbg: it offers way more contrast than my eyes like. but heck, i rarely see much of my desktop, having a few large windows on every workspace :)
<luisbg> it's mobile...
<luisbg> use case = looked at with shitty screens in pure daylight
<luisbg> contrast _is_ needed
<thorwil> oh, i was taking it as example for a possible direction for hardy
<luisbg> thorwil, ok
<thorwil> these eyes are tired, good night! :)
<luisbg> night
<deezid_> have to go out, too
<deezid_> bye
<hon> is the meeting over?
<kwwii> yes
<kwwii> 1 1/4 hour ago
 * hon should remember the time for next meeting ...
<hon> Do you keep logs?
<kwwii> http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2007/12/01/%23ubuntu-artwork.html
<hon> thanks
<kwwii> np
<troy_s> did i miss anything exciting?
<troy_s> lol
<kwwii> we decided to make the interface pink and teal
* kwwii changed the topic of #ubuntu-artwork to: pink and teal it is!!!1
#ubuntu-artwork 2007-12-02
<viper550> Hello?
<troy_s> viper550: ?
<viper550> Trying to setup Ubuntu on my other computer, again - this time as a main OS
<troy_s> viper550: Ok great.  What brings you here to tell us that for?
<viper550> I am having issues...ironically
<viper550> Got an hp f1053 monitor, installed correctly, but refuses to go into X. The monitor just goes to sleep mode.
<troy_s> hrm...
<troy_s> viper550: What do you mean 'go into X' -- x refuses to start?
<darkmatter> #ubuntu is the "help" channel. need directions? :P
<viper550> I'm trying to get help from someone
<troy_s> viper550: I would try that advice -- #ubuntu is very useful.
<viper550> I'm doing dpkg-reconfigure xserver-xorg
<viper550> works now
<viper550> sorry to say this but I already "dumped the defaults in the trash"
<troy_s> viper550: I don't think anyone cares.  What the hell do you think we have been struggling away on for nearly three years?
<viper550> Wow, my Dad didn't like the default panel arrangement!
<viper550> hey troy_S
<troy_s> viper550: Hello.
<viper550> We got it running as you heard
<viper550> Theme wise, we're using Clearlooks with a purple, crux icons, and a wallpaper with our border city's waterfront
<darkmatter> troy_s: LOL. I don't think anything short of a blunt instrument to the back of Marks head will aid in the struggle
<titanix88> howdy people :)
<titanix88> what about the formalized contribution website? is it on?
#ubuntu-artwork 2008-11-24
<thorwil> plop
<savvas> clang :)
<_MMA_> :P
<thorwil> well, at least here i manage to get a little response :)
 * _MMA_ tries desperately not to say grumpy old man stuff. ;)
<_MMA_> thorwil: I like the one with the elephants.
<_MMA_> As a "feel" or idea anyway.
<thorwil> good. that was the point, although i'm not sure where it will lead to
<_MMA_> Sure
<thorwil> is the campfire clear enough in this regard? only invested 30 mins there
<_MMA_> For me, yes.
<thorwil> ok. coffee, bbl
<thorwil> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/KyudoGuidelines/Mood?action=AttachFile&do=get&target=mood_hospitality.jpg
<thorwil> and with that, i have to go!
#ubuntu-artwork 2008-11-25
<robsta1> hi thorwil
<thorwil> hi robsta1
<robsta> thorwil: fyi, if nobody stands up to make a theme soon i'll release the css engine 0.3 without one
<robsta> maybe a new release attracts designers
<thorwil> robsta: what's the status regarding making a theme from a single svg?
<robsta> thorwil: rsvg patch committed, not released
<thorwil> robsta: should i go with svn or tarball?
<robsta> thorwil: svn
<robsta> but i need to activate the feature in the engine
<robsta> (later today)
<thorwil> is there an example/template svg?
<robsta> i'll set one up ASAP
<thorwil> robsta: i'm interested in that feature mainly for "prototyping" themes, but i guess nothing speaks against using an early attempt with it as example theme
<robsta> someone needs to send me an svg file with normal, active, prelight, selected insensitive buttons
<robsta> then i'll set up a skeleton
<thorwil> only command buttons?
<robsta> yes, for a start
<thorwil> robsta: ok, will do that
<robsta> thorwil: rock
<thorwil> robsta: are you going to use named rectangles to find the right areas, similar to jimmac's single canvas workflow for icons?
<robsta> thorwil: by xml id
<thorwil> robsta: the states you listed are all exclusive, except selected?
<robsta> thorwil: all are exclusive, possibly not all are possible
<robsta> normal, hover, pressed, insensitive would be a good start
<thorwil> robsta: prelight = hover and active = down, right?
<robsta> yes
<thorwil> robsta: selected is the thing used in dialogs, for the button tied to Enter?
<robsta> that's probably something different
<robsta> GtkButton[can-default=true] in CSS :)
<thorwil> robsta: but it also can't mean has focus, as i just saw a button with dotted rectangle for focus, keeping it during prelight and active
<robsta> that's yet something different
<thorwil> gtk.STATE_SELECTED	State of a selected item, such the selected row in a list.
<robsta> does probably not apply to buttons
<thorwil> that's just what i was thinking :)
<robsta> that's why i said the other 4 would be a good start
<thorwil> robsta: how do you intend to handle the slicing for rounded corners?
<robsta> thorwil: http://www.gnome.org/~robsta/gtk-css-engine/screenshots/14-border-image.png
<kwwii> thorwil: I like the campfire sketch, very nice :-)
<thorwil> kwwii: thanks :)
 * _MMA_ mentions that Inkscape SVN has new patches to make the "Blur" plugin use multicores/CPUs. ie: If you use the blur plugin on a pic it now uses multiple processors to render on-screen and to bitmap.
<robsta> hey kwwii
<kwwii> hey _MMA_, robsta
<_MMA_> yo yo.
<kwwii> _MMA_: that is probably why it doesn't build on my machine :p
<_MMA_> kwwii: As of when? I grabbed it fresh yesterday and it worked fine.
<kwwii> _MMA_: it's been a week or so
<_MMA_> Try now. People are reporting a 50% speed boost when using blur.
<kwwii> _MMA_: in the meantime I have been finishing off the 2d panel icons
<kwwii> wow, that sounds amazing
<_MMA_> Oh nice. I'll be hittin' Breathe hard in the next couple of days. Maybe Thur/Fri.
<kwwii> another thing I've been looking into is having the panel icons use two different themes (one for a dark panel and one ofr a light panel)
<kwwii> I think we will have a demo ready for UDS
<robsta> kwwii: just so you know, pretty much all set for css themes now :)
 * robsta craving for designs now
<_MMA_> kwwii: Whenever you have something to test, lemmie know.
<kwwii> robsta: cool, I was discussing the gtk-css stuff in a planning session for 9.04
<kwwii> robsta: I am definitely pushing forward with making a theme but I guess 9.04 is a bit too early
<kwwii> _MMA_: will do
<robsta> kwwii: 9.04 hmm, yeah
<_MMA_> Well, for default sure. But for *something* maybe not. Maybe someone can do a simple theme that can be shipped?
<kwwii> _MMA_: right, that was my plan
 * _MMA_ was thinkin' about learning CSS to try his hand at a theme.
<robsta> _MMA_: do you know gtkrc?
<robsta> anyway, at some point we'll have a template and you may just have to change the inkscape file :)
<_MMA_> robsta: Yep. Pretty much.
<robsta> _MMA_: then you're all set
 * _MMA_ does alot of the hacking on Ubuntu Studio's default theme.
<_MMA_> robsta: Can I have a link to the current documentation for the CSS engine?
<robsta> documentation?
<_MMA_> Yes
<robsta> you can look at the existing themes
<_MMA_> I understand it's CSS but everything has it's quirks.
<_MMA_> So I'm looking for any examples and notes about issues.
<robsta> sure, i just didn't get around to write it, also because things have been in a flux
<_MMA_> And this is the biggest place we "fail". We create things/code and only we know how to use it.
<_MMA_> Documentation is key to get people to do theming.
<_MMA_> Cimi actually did pretty well with this with Murrine.
<robsta> _MMA_, look, there is limited value in spending half a day on documentation when things are thrown over the day after
<robsta> this is just a very young project
<_MMA_> I'd love to help creatye buzz for this but I'm sure others will ask the same basic questions I have. :)
<_MMA_> *create
<robsta> _MMA_: i am very much pro docs and have complete API docs for libccss, the CSS library that's powering the engine
<_MMA_> robsta: Them calling for people to test/create things at this point might be premature as well.
<_MMA_> *Then
<robsta> if you know gtkrc and css it's very natural
<_MMA_> And you *seem* to be getting defencive. We're just chattin' here. ;)
<_MMA_> *defensive
<robsta> _MMA_: i'm not looking for buzz, just a single designer
<robsta> an early adopter, who isn't afraid to try someting new
<_MMA_> kwwii: Are the panel icons you're working a small set that depend on human?
<kwwii> _MMA_: we are still working out how to do it exactly
<kwwii> most likely it will be a small set which depends on human, yes
<kwwii> but...as always there is a but
<_MMA_> Ahh... Ok. Cool
<_MMA_> I have no plans to mess with the Studio set but if you get this working I might consider adopting your changes.
<kwwii> cool
<robsta> _MMA_: no offense, i'm just a bit annoyed having had like half a dozen designers telling me how great it was, but nobody able to send me an svg file with just 4 buttons in it yet
<_MMA_> robsta: Sure. It's still no reason to get pissy at someone. ;) Especially being the new guy around here. :)
<_MMA_> kwwii: So no work from Mirco (MacSlow) on new GDM?
<_MMA_> gah s/work/word
<kwwii> _MMA_: actually, I am not sure what is going on with that
<_MMA_> Ok.
<kwwii> I thought he was close to being done with that
<kwwii> since we moved teams around things have gotten a little confusing
<kwwii> I still haven't talked to my new boss yet
<kwwii> I don't think he knows he is my boss
<_MMA_> I see. I'm sure UDS will shed some light on things.
<kwwii> hopefully
<robsta> _MMA_: i'll work on it if you point out where i was gettig pissy, honestly
<_MMA_> haha! He is now? :)
<_MMA_> "robsta: _MMA_, look, there is limited value in spending half a day on documentation when things are thrown over the day after" *Usually* in the real world, when this is said with the pause that way it's a but forward/aggressive/shows annoyance. (which you admitted to)
<_MMA_> SO though this 'ol interweb here is non-emoting there's a way to say things. Like I said, "We're just chattin' here. ;)".
<_MMA_> kwwii: You pushed any changes to Jaunty yet? I'm thinking of taking the font sizes 1pt smaller in Studio.
<kwwii> _MMA_: haven't done anything so far other than bug fixing
<kwwii> probably a good idea, if you ask me though
<kwwii> and now that droid is out in the open, I think we could look into using that
<_MMA_> Well, I'm already 1pt smaller than Ubuntu now. :P So I would go to something like 8,8,8,9,8
<robsta> _MMA_: i apologise; possibly my thinking to cross-check things with a technically (read: CSS and gtkrc) versed designer before diving into documentation is flawed
<_MMA_> np
<_MMA_> kwwii: I just felt on 1024x768 things still looked too, "Duplo". SO I've been using 8,8,8,9,8 on 1920x1200 & 1024x768 and it just feels tighter. More polished.
<kwwii> _MMA_: one of the first things I do is to reduce them to 9
<kwwii> across the board
<kwwii> so I undestand you :-)
<_MMA_> Yeah. I even felt 9 wasn't tight enough. And though that's what windows is set to, it still *looks* slightly larger. I'll push the change soon and see how things go.
<_MMA_> I gotta put out a call for someone to revamp the website. @ years and it's gettin' a *little* stale.
<_MMA_> s/@/2
<_MMA_> Need a Drupal themer.
<thorwil> robsta: you will have your buttons today ;)
<robsta> thorwil: \o/
<thorwil> robsta: and i don't think the way you approach this is wrong. but there are few designers and most are probably like me in always having several things to work on :)
<robsta> thorwil: it's kindof a chicken-and-egg problem
<thorwil> 4 button states, quick take: http://xs233.xs.to/xs233/08482/button_states864.png
<thorwil> robsta: you got mail. i organised the svg with layers, with rects in the layer "plates" as export targets. just to show how i would do it :)
<robsta> thorwil: teh awesomeness
<robsta> thorwil: must run now, are you on tomorrow?
<thorwil> robsta: sure
<robsta> cool, see you
<thorwil> cya
<robsta> i'll try to do the theme directly from that file
<thorwil> _MMA_: http://www.viceland.com/int/v15n11/htdocs/dark-lord-of-logos-302.php
 * _MMA_ knows his work well. :P
<_MMA_> That interviewer was a tool.
<thorwil> didn't read it, just viewed the slideshow :)
 * thorwil -> dinner
<thorwil> is it even possible that a button will not have focus as soon as you click it?
<thorwil> kwwii: can you explain the difference between widget-focus as typically denoted with a dotted rectangle and the default button mark in dialogs (orange border in ubuntu)?
<kwwii> thorwil: not sure what you want me to explain
<thorwil> kwwii: just got an explanation in gnome-art
<thorwil> kwwii: it's about the separated keyboard/enter focus in dialogs
<kwwii> thorwil: right, it is about keyboard focus vs. active elements
<thorwil> kwwii: it's kinda broken in the Open dialog of Totem as i noted when playing with it to understand the model
<thorwil> kwwii: you can tab the focus to the "Supported files" combo. it will then catch and react to enter without having that orange aura
<kwwii> hrm, sounds freaky
<kwwii> I never liked the doted lines stuff...always seemed unecessary if you don't use a keyboard to navigate to me
<thorwil> i don't like the either
<thorwil> but having that other way of marking a button for enter-focus makes it much harder to do something else
<kwwii> true
<thorwil> kwwii: i'm extending that button svg i made for Rob. intention is to include _all_ states/combinations. might put it up with a call for designs. "how should a Ubuntu button look like?"
<thorwil> of course i expect silence as answer :}
<kwwii> killer, sounds good
<kwwii> sorry, putting my son to sleep
<kwwii> well, to bed, not to sleep :-)
<kwwii> thorwil: didn't see the button svg...link?
<thorwil> kwwii: http://xs233.xs.to/xs233/08482/button_states864.png  i only mailed the svg to Rob
<kwwii> looks pretty good
<thorwil> ty. was a quick job, actually
<kwwii> I made a mockup somewhere with new ideas in it, naturally, I cannot find it now
<thorwil> heh
<kwwii> ahhh, yes...http://sinecera.de/mock.png
<kwwii> never got very far with that
<thorwil> do i see a hint of a concave surface there?
<kwwii> yeah, probably not the best idea, looking at it now it looks a lot like keramik (very popular kde style fromt the 2.0 days)
<kwwii> I find that I keep making mockups which look quite like stuff I did 10 years ago :p
<thorwil> would be wicked to model actual buttons with hd foam, spray-paint them, light-setup, photos :)
 * thorwil has the material but not the tools
<kwwii> thorwil: actually, a very good idea
<thorwil> kwwii: but how to make it possible?
<kwwii> thorwil: in the end it would probably be easier with a renderer anyway
<thorwil> i once started to model a button and surface with hole in blender to do the next best thing but didn't get far regarding lighting
<kwwii> although I have tried blender a lot I never really liked the interface
<thorwil> kwwii: do you have experience with other 3d apps?
<kwwii> I tend to use cinema 4D (been using that for like 14-15 years)
<kwwii> thorwil: yes, before I got into linux I had a company with a couple of other guys working on music videos, tv commercials, etc
<thorwil> oh. tried that once. cinema felt very clumsy to me
<kwwii> different strokes for different folks :-)
<thorwil> heh, right
<kwwii> I just like the modeller in cinema4D
<thorwil> damn, time slipping through my fingers :)  good night!
#ubuntu-artwork 2008-11-26
<rsc-> hey guys
<rsc-> http://dump.ambiescent.com/i/ucarbon2.jpg
<rsc-> what do you think? :/
<robsta> hi rsc-
<rsc-> hola.
<kwwii> hi rsc-
<rsc-> hey kwwii
<kwwii> nifty mockup
<rsc-> part of me thinks its cool, another part of me thinks it's ugly.
<rsc-> lol
<rsc-> ugh, i like it, but it's not kickass enough.
<rsc-> _MMA_, http://dump.ambiescent.com/i/ucarbon2.jpg - what do you think? :)
<_MMA_> Oh Wow. Nice. Is that real?
<_MMA_> bbiab
<robsta> rsc-: the scroll bars look very original
<wedderburn> the corners need more rounding, you can see the pixels
<kwwii> robsta: btw, I mentioned that I had some unfinished stuff laying around that I wanted to work on, here it is: http://sinecera.de/mock.png
<kwwii> as you can see I didn't get very far
<robsta> kwwii: reminds me a bit of http://gnome-look.org/content/show.php/CleanLime?content=41233
<wedderburn> but doesn't have that annoyingly fake gloss
<robsta> kwwii: anyway, i'm now frantically trying to get thorwil's single-canvas mockup working
<kwwii> cool
<robsta> (needs some more librsvg patching unfortunately)
<thorwil> hi!
<robsta> hi thorwil
<robsta> thorwil: you need to name your theme :)
<thorwil> robsta: sworp
<_MMA_> Or "Plop" :P
<robsta> thorwil: have to hack librsvg a bit, almost there
<thorwil> robsta: don't listen to _MMA_, he's being silly ;)
<robsta> thorwil: but we need to group each button
<robsta> so they can be referred to using a single ID
<thorwil> robsta: using the plate #id to get the area doesn't work?
<robsta> thorwil: no, because svg doesn't have such a concept of implicit containers (afaik)
<thorwil> robsta: because, if you use groups, you have to set the right ID again and again and again when editing
<robsta> yeah, it sucks
<robsta> what are the single-canvas-icon people doing?
<thorwil> robsta: they use the plate IDs for script-driven bitmap export
<thorwil> robsta: _MMA_ knows the details
<_MMA_> There is a "plate layer" under the desired object.
<_MMA_> Each square under that later acts as a bounding box.
<_MMA_> s/under/on
<_MMA_> That square has properties. ie: 48x48 that represents that icon size.
<robsta> guess that would work with librsvg too
<robsta> get the position of the "plate", then draw the whole file with appropriate clipping
<_MMA_> So the script we have looks for that square, and just grabs everything above.
<robsta> will be prone to overhead with rsvg, because the whole canvas has to be rendered each time
<_MMA_> Check it out. http://bazaar.launchpad.net/%7Ebreathe-dev/breathe-icon-set/trunk/download/head:/breathe_icon_templat-20080905042226-bvdzo9fb8th94dyh-3/Breathe_Icon_Template.svg?file_id=template-20080905042226-bvdzo9fb8th94dyh-2
<robsta> i see
<_MMA_> And the script. http://bazaar.launchpad.net/%7Ebreathe-dev/breathe-icon-set/trunk/download/coryisatm%40ubuntu.com-20080927155504-1wq75t2rjtbim7j4/render_bitmap.py-20080904180602-4kcena7h7l22ot23-2/render_bitmap.py
<thorwil> robsta: the svg is not rendered once to then use the bitmaps?
<robsta> no, the idea is to draw the theme from the canvas
<robsta> (the original idea, fwiw)
<_MMA_> So that script makes 1 large scaliable SVG and then renders the rest to bitmap.
<robsta> _MMA_: the icon script?
<thorwil> the file i prepared was meant to be used in the same way
<_MMA_> robsta: YEs
<robsta> thorwil: hmm
<_MMA_> If you pull the code and run the script, it will make the icon set for you in the "Breathe" folder.
<robsta> _MMA_: thanks, think i understand the icon approach a bit better now
<_MMA_> np
<robsta> thing is i has something different in mind
<thorwil> robsta: i have to say that having to manually set the IDs on groups would cost you designers ;)  as alternative, i wonder if you could search for a group based on its coordinates, to completely ignore the naming
<robsta> thorwil: think i'll go with "plates" way, but dynamically from the canvas
<robsta> best of both worlds
<robsta> no script needed
<thorwil> robsta: so the template i made can remain as is?
<_MMA_> robsta: You must hide the plates before you render or they will be in the image.
<robsta> oh
<robsta> can the plates be invisible?
<thorwil> yes
<_MMA_> Yes
<robsta> that'd be good
<thorwil> robsta: by either hiding their layer or setting their alpha to zero
<robsta> thorwil: the template can stay pretty much
<_MMA_> thorwil: Link to your template?
<thorwil> robsta: good. because after finishing a complete set, i want to make a call for button design on the ubuntu-art list, offering that template as base ;)
<thorwil> _MMA_: it's not online, mailing you
<_MMA_> cool
<robsta> thorwil: it's awesome you got this started, been frantically fixing bugs all day
<thorwil> robsta: heh, it's nothing. yet ;)
<robsta> it turned up lots of problems
<_MMA_> thorwil: Looking through the template, it looks perfect.
<thorwil> good, ty :)
<thorwil> i wonder why i made plates for insensitive combined with anything but unfocused, though :)
<dilomo> hi guys
<_MMA_> yo
<dilomo> what's up
<dilomo> _MMA_: I saw what a wonderful
<dilomo> job is Sebastion doing
<dilomo> is his work going to be included
<dilomo> in Human
<_MMA_> See my reply on the list.
<dilomo> but why?
<_MMA_> It's not part of Human.
<dilomo> ooops my mistake
<dilomo> I meant Breath
<dilomo> the new Human
<_MMA_> Yes. It will be part of Brethe.
<_MMA_> Ill be getting them in soon.
<_MMA_> *In* BZR that is.
<dilomo> do I have permissons to download
<dilomo> it from bzr
<_MMA_> Anyone can download. Only upload is restricted.
<dilomo> cool
<dilomo> I'll check it out
<thorwil> hi dilomo. how's things?
<dilomo> thorwil: good
<dilomo> how is the (art)work going in here?
<thorwil> dilomo: we are feeling lonely
<dilomo> why if I may ask?
<thorwil> dilomo: lack of contributors. but you're one of the last persons i should complain to :)
<dilomo> I think that there will be more contributors
<dilomo> if we were showing them off more
<dilomo> of what's going to be new in the next Ubuntu
<thorwil> dilomo: do you have a screenshot of the most recent New Wave at hand?
<dilomo> no
<dilomo> basically I'm struggling with the button focus
<dilomo> right now
<dilomo> it is very hard to make it right in the pixmap
<dilomo> engine
<dilomo> wait a sec to make a screenshot
<dilomo> and upload it
<dilomo> http://img139.imagevenue.com/img.php?image=25388_Test_122_401lo.jpg
<thorwil> dilomo: well, on that one, the titlebar-behind-content impression is gone
<dilomo> maybe because the shadow is smaller
<dilomo> but I think of some kind of texture like
<dilomo> carbon on 20% opacity
<dilomo> or smth like that
<thorwil> dilomo: i think you should make the shadow a tad stronger _and_ add an highlight on the bottom of the titlebar, that looks like it actually belongs to the content
<dilomo> you mean a highligh on the bottom of the menubar?
<thorwil> dilomo: oh, yes
<dilomo> yes that will work
<thorwil> dilomo: a texture will only help if you make it end in a different way on the upper window edge
<thorwil> that is, making the texture look like it follows a rounded edge
<dilomo> aham
<dilomo> probably smth like this
<dilomo> but if I make it lighter
<dilomo> at the top the drop shadow effect will be gone
<dilomo> I will experiment freely with that but what bothers me that I cannot change focus images for different states of the button e.g. Pressed, Normal ...
<thorwil> dilomo: oh. is that a gtk+ issues or a theme engine specific issue?
<dilomo> pixmap=trouble :) so i guess it is engine
<dilomo> nice chat guys
<dilomo> but I have to go
<thorwil> cya
<dilomo> bb :)
<thorwil> kwwii: is it even possible to have a different depressed look for a button if it is a dialog's default button?
<kwwii> thorwil: you mean different in comparison to another window types button?
<thorwil> kwwii: no, other buttons, same window
<kwwii> thorwil: no, I do not think you can do that
<thorwil> kwwii: i tried to see what human does ... the action buttons of a dialog seem to have an orangish border when depressed. other buttons do not
<thorwil> kwwii: so from http://xs233.xs.to/xs233/08483/button_set347.png, what do i have to delete?
<kwwii> thorwil: I think the theme engine is what does that, not the gtkrc
<thorwil> kwwii: ok, lets hope so
<kwwii> thorwil: I like the Defualt look but not the colors
<thorwil> kwwii: it's actually good if people will find something they don't like about that set ;)
<kwwii> :-)
<kwwii> looking thorugh the gtkrc of human I know that there is no special definition to get that color for that glow
<kwwii> there are only two definitions for buttons in it
<thorwil> i have been told by an experienced gtk coder that the concept of Default doesn't even exist :)
<thorwil> zum mÃ¤usemelken!
<kwwii> lol, ich haette dir was sagen sollen
<thorwil> kwwii: well, obviously there is *something* that can be themed differently there
<thorwil> http://live.gnome.org/GnomeArt/Tutorials/GtkThemes/GtkButton makes it sound like there is a fixed assumption that focus will be indicated with a line
<kwwii> thorwil: dependinnding on the theme engine, yes I agree
<kwwii> lol, well ...that is a bit too specific for my tastes
<thorwil> i guess gtk+ was made with doing exactly what win 3.1 did in mind :>
<kwwii> lol, I've had that feeling too
<thorwil> kwwii: editing the wiki to insert a few notes, the image as shown and the svg template. to later on hit the list with my call. anything to add from your side?
<kwwii> thorwil: nothing off the top of my head
<thorwil> kwwii: "a" or "an" in front of "Ubuntu"?
<thorwil> nm
<thorwil> mail out, good night! :)
#ubuntu-artwork 2008-11-27
<_MMA_> join #lipsofsuna
<robsta> hey thorwil, have a sec?
<robsta> (re single-canvas approach)
<thorwil> robsta: yes, now
<robsta> thorwil: andreasn told me that you can still edit grouped elements in inkscape, just double-click the group
<thorwil> robsta: i know. but if you build a button from scratch, there is no group ...
<robsta> thorwil: yes, but you don't have to ungroup for editing, thought that was the contention we had
<robsta> thorwil: starting from the template all IDs will be set already
<thorwil> robsta: the problems are: A: initially there is nothing to group if you build the button from scratch. B: you cannot ungroup to easily move parts around. C: editing in groups is damn confusing
<robsta> thorwil: but is the missing initial group really a problem? when you start from scratch you don't need a group, only once you load the actual theme in the engine
<thorwil> robsta: i expect several iterations to happen ...
<robsta> thorwil: yes, but once you have the group iterations are easy
<robsta> thorwil: the problem is i don't know how to handle plates design-mode vs. rendering-mode
<thorwil> robsta: excpet for moving and copying parts around
<robsta> thorwil: librsvg can't change element attributes on the fly
<robsta> so it can't turn off plate visibility
<thorwil> robsta: that's the one thing the designer has to do. hide background and plates
<thorwil> robsta: one could even write a script that makes sure they are hidden in the file
<robsta> thorwil: let's leave the script idea aside for now, and focus on an easy-as-possible workflow
<robsta> one can always script, but it doesn't necessarily make things more intuitive ...
<thorwil> robsta: remembering to hide 2 layers is much easier than dealing with groups
<robsta> ok, i see
<robsta> you are the designer :)
<robsta> plates it be, then
<thorwil> robsta: what about the alternative i mentioned, finding the groups by their coordinates? that way the designer would only have to care about things being grouped in the end, no matter what the ID ends up to be. also no fuss with hiding layers, provided you can render the group sans bg
<robsta> thorwil: that's a possibility, but it seems messy
<thorwil> robsta: ok. i'm happy with plates :)
<robsta> the ID is a uniqe identifyer, coordinates are more a "soft" lookup
<robsta> (i.e. you can't tell whether you got the right elements rendered or not)
<robsta> (from the code)
<thorwil> robsta: seen https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/KyudoGuidelines/Pieces/Buttons ?
<robsta> yes
<thorwil> robsta: i wasn't able to determine if GTK+ itself would allow all listed states. so now would be a good time to warn me ;)
<robsta> thorwil: what is "double"?
<thorwil> robsta: deafult+focus
<robsta> thorwil: oh, maybe just call it like that, then?
<thorwil> robsta: yeah, only it's too long :)
<robsta> doesn't matter, as long as the plate is in place
<robsta> or break it over two lines
<thorwil> my plates use the same labels
<robsta> thorwil: i like your systematic approach, guess no engine/theme out there handles all those states differently
<thorwil> but i bet you will like "double" better, as soon as it spares you from writing default-focused
<robsta> no, i like things explicit
<robsta> and not trying to invent things, just call it what it is
<thorwil> robsta: ok, i will change the template
<robsta> great
<robsta> thorwil: i'd like to look over the naming scheme anyway, at some point
<thorwil> robsta: i think i will change - to _, so it can be default-focused_normal
<robsta> thorwil: please no
<thorwil> luckily SVG is search-and-replace friendly :)
<robsta> thorwil: hyphens are so much nicer to read
<thorwil> robsta: how then? defaultfocused_normal?
<robsta> "button-focused"
<robsta> ok, let's quickly go over the naming
<robsta> the left-top one should be just "button"
<robsta> then, to the right
<robsta> "button-focused", "button-default", "button-focused-default"
<robsta> 2nd row
<robsta> "button-prelight", "button-prelight-focused", "button-prelight-default", "button-prelight-focused-default"
<robsta> 3rd row just use "active" for "prelight"
<robsta> 4th row: "button-insensitive"
<robsta> what do you think?
<robsta> (there may be other things than just buttons in the template at some point, so better start correctly)
<thorwil> ok
<robsta> maybe a native speaker would like to weigh in regarding "prelight" vs. "prelit"
<thorwil> robsta: i'm using the GTK terms there
<robsta> yes, guess that's a safe bet
 * thorwil edits template
<robsta> thorwil: where should we host the theme?
<robsta> gnome-svn with the engine, or bazaar-playground.gnome.org?
<thorwil> i'm not quite sure if this shall become a theme solely for the engine, or an ubuntu theme, yet
<thorwil> i prefer bzr
 * robsta figured as much
<thorwil> and i like launchpad :)
<robsta> thorwil: i'll put it on b-p.g.o so you can clone as you see fit
<thorwil> ok, cool
<thorwil> robsta: so far my actual use of bzr/LP has been just pushing stuff to have a backup and stuff available online :)
<robsta> thorwil: just that b-p.g.o doesn't let me log in for some time :/
<robsta> isn't that box under ubuntu administration?
<thorwil> b-p.g.o? no idea.
 * _MMA_ works to get some of Sebastian's Breathe work into BZR.
<thorwil> i didn't even link to the SVG template, but to the PNG and nobody notice or cared to inform me :}
<thorwil> robsta: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/KyudoGuidelines/Pieces/Buttons
<robsta> thorwil: very aesthetically pleasing :)
<thorwil> :)
<robsta> guess i only need to make it work now
<robsta> :P
<thorwil> gnarg. had to update the SVG once more to ajust the canvas size
<_MMA_> Dammit. bitmaps aren't being rendered with Inkscape SVN and the Breathe script. Had go back to older Inkscape. :(
<robsta> thorwil: i have just patched librsvg, you'll need trunk
<kwwii> _MMA_: hrm, that sounds funky...which options changed?
<_MMA_> Don't know. I'll talk to Ted when I can. Most likely tomorrow.
<_MMA_> And Sebastian messed up alot in his submissions so I got alot of cleanup to do. Mostly him not labeling things and messin' with the 22x22/24x24 plates.
<kwwii> ouch
<kwwii> ted is on vacation until tomorrow, btw
<kwwii> erm, wrong...he should be back from vacation but flying to california
<_MMA_> Sure. I'll hit him up when I can.
<_MMA_> hahahhahahaha The friggin' Macy's parade was Rick-Rolled! hahahahah
<_MMA_> (though it was part of it all) :P
<kwwii>  Rick-Rolled?
<_MMA_> kwwii: Oh come on man. :) You know. We did it at UDS-Prague.
<kwwii> erm, maybe I am just stupid and forgetfull then :p
<kwwii> ahhh, google is my friend
<_MMA_> :P
<robsta> thorwil: unfortunately there are problems with the plates approach in librsvg
<robsta> thorwil: apparently librsvg can't locate the plate in your template, whereas a group works just fine
<thorwil> robsta: problems are there to be solved
<thorwil> ;)
<robsta> thorwil: oh what a nice way telling me to work harder ...
<_MMA_> Are the plates noted a "path####" or "rect####"?
<_MMA_> Look in the plates properties.
<robsta> rect
<_MMA_> Hmm...
 * robsta tries to locate an arbitrary rect
<robsta> arbitrary _visible_ rect
<robsta> that works
<robsta> how can i put something on the plates layer?
<_MMA_> I wouldn't. I'd put it 1 layer above.
<_MMA_> But if you wan't to an it appears you cant, it might be locked.
<robsta> oh, i'm trying to find out what fails librsvg
<robsta> the different layer, or visibility of the plate, or whatever
<_MMA_> Ctrl+Shift+L brings up the layer dialog box.
<robsta> ok
<robsta> to i have to move it to top to draw on it?
<_MMA_> *Anything* above that plate rectangle will (or should) get rendered. So it's pretty much WYSIWYG.
<robsta> yes
<robsta> how can i add a plate of my own, for testing?
<_MMA_> So you *can* draw it anywhere above a given plate. As long as you can see it.
<robsta> i'd like to find out why librsvg fails to localise the plates
<robsta> so i'm trying to draw a plate of my own
<robsta> but the plates layer seems locked
<thorwil> robsta: it is locked
<_MMA_> You have to draw a rectangle, and make sure the id is "rect####".
<thorwil> robsta: ctrl+shift+L for layer panel
<thorwil> the lock icon/button should be self-explanatory
<_MMA_> My particular script looks in the "Label" field also.
<robsta> oooh, i can only draw on it when its visible
 * robsta rather cackhanded with that kind of things
<robsta> thorwil: so it seems librsvg can only locate plates when their layer is visible
 * _MMA_ wonders how Inkscape does it then.
<robsta> _MMA_: it's something completely different
<robsta> _MMA_: it seems when you read dimensions of an element using librsvg the suff is rendered internally, and the the bounding box is measured from that
<thorwil> robsta: oh. in that case, you can turn the alpha of the rects all the way down, but keep the layer visible
<robsta> thorwil: good one! how?
<robsta> thorwil: works!
<thorwil> robsta: there are several ways. the layer itself has alpha. each object and finally the color/fill
<robsta> it was right there in the layers panel, shame on me
<robsta> thorwil: are all buttons drawn to have a 5px border?
<thorwil> robsta: don't know what you mean
<robsta> thorwil: the button images are sliced, how wide are the borders?
<thorwil> robsta: the corner radius is 5 px
<robsta> ok
<thorwil> robsta: the sides are 9 px wide
<robsta> oh
<thorwil> robsta: from top 8 px
<thorwil> 6 px from bottom
<robsta> thorwil: we need to work on these terms: http://www.w3.org/TR/css3-background/#the-border-image
<thorwil> robsta: percentages only?
<robsta> thorwil: no, lengths or percentages
<thorwil> robsta: then the numbers i gave you do it :)
<robsta> so top-right-bottom-left is 8 9 9 6
<thorwil> yes
<robsta> thorwil: this is measured from the plate, right?
<thorwil> robsta: yes
<robsta> good
<thorwil> bbl
<robsta> http://www.gnome.org/~robsta/gtk-css-engine/screenshots/15-single-canvas.png
<thorwil> robsta: that looks interesting :)
<robsta> thorwil: it's ugly, but you see how css makes it really easy to match things
 * _MMA_ is almost done new Breathe uploads and wiki work. Will have a email post soon.
<robsta> thorwil: here's a better one, check out the focused button http://www.gnome.org/~robsta/gtk-css-engine/screenshots/15-single-canvas.png
<thorwil> robsta: ah, that's good
<thorwil> robsta: do the edges come from the background layer left visible?
<robsta> dunno
<thorwil> those column headers will need something custom. same for comboboxes
<thorwil> _MMA_: hah, you can't sneak wiki edits past me! :)
<thorwil> dinner, bbl
<_MMA_> :P
<robsta> thorwil: everythings up now, theme "Thorwil" in gtk-css-engine, gnome svn
<robsta> see you
<_MMA_> Email sent.
 * _MMA_ now starts on mimitypes.
<thorwil> _MMA_: mimitypes? cute :)
<thorwil> nand: hi! designing is easy, eh? ;)
<nand> yeah right, I was a bit fast :) The point I wanted to make is that the majority of the work is to be done by developers
 * nand dinner, brb
<nand> thorwil: okay, I'm less in a hurry now :) Quoting my answer:
<nand> Right, I oversimplified :) Designing is not easy. If done consciously, it can be an difficult and intensive work. What I wanted to say is that on the overall the required development effort is higher to much higher than the design one. It depends of course of the project.
<nand> thorwil: I'm curious : As a designer, what is your perception of the developers and the developer work?
<thorwil> nand: heh. yes, very true
<thorwil> nand: developers need a kind of discipline that i lack. competent developers need to be way more clever than i am in some regards. strangely, i can still aid them even regarding purely methodical work where one could think it's about the exact same mindset as for coding
<thorwil> nand: but note that i have been called a "dry designer" by one of my professors. and one of the first developers i worked with said i would make a good coder :)
<nand> eheh
<nand> you may be one of this rare group of developer having good artistic and design skills!
 * nand wishes he would have some, even a minimal set
<nand> and ok, let's say you want to design an app with Qt Designer, the best WYSYWIG heavy client out there. Have you ever tried? What do you think are the problems of this tool/kind of tool?
<thorwil> nand: i wonder if a certain kind of blindness inevitably comes from knowing the implementation side of an application ...
<nand> thorwil: I believe so very much for a lot of developers
<nand> your mind analyzes and design things according to implementation limitations you are aware of, and that's natural for a developer
<thorwil> nand: no, still havn't tried as i have nothing to try and implement with it, wheras i do have some interesting work now :)
<thorwil> nand: maybe worth communicating that it is not necessarily about different professions, but that much can be solely a matter of perspective
<nand> in fact, there is no application I know of where the UI was publicly designed before being implemented
<nand> that could be an interesting experiment for later : doing a fast web application (or just a wiki) where one can submit its glade/qt designer design, and let other people enhance it
<nand> a sort of brainstorm, but with exploitable UI by developer included
<thorwil> nand: but actually it is not direct interface design, but doing a proper analysis and strategic planning beforehand that should be encouraged
<nand> thorwil: right. But that may be a bit too demanding for an basic open source project with ... limited human ressources :)
<nand> AFAIK, usually open source project start with one man
<nand>  /woman
<nand> with a given set of skills
<nand> that is probably the heart of the usability problem of open source apps...
<nand> problem is, once the UI is set, it's an hard and boring task to change it
<thorwil> that's why i want gui/engine separation combined with an authoring environment. to make GUIs fluid
<nand> e.g. see the time between amarok 1 and 2, where they are redesigning their UI. More than one or even two years now
<thorwil> nand: with Blender, they are moving from a coding the gui to a coding the environment to define the gui strategy
<nand> could you explain?
<thorwil> nand: it means that issues like the layout of controls is moved out to another level
<nand> hmm... abstract!
<thorwil> entirely customizable key-bindings is one of the aspects
<thorwil> nand: it's the natural conclusion from what has been happening in the big 3d applications since long
<thorwil> they offer so damn many features, that at some point users just have to be able to adjust the gui
<nand> I was meaning that I is quite abstract to me, I am not understanding :)
<thorwil> nand: i'm not sure how far this will actually go, but it could well mean to have an integrated and "live" gui builder in the application
<thorwil> nand: so the user can add a widget and bind it to any function offered by the core
<nand> hmm. I am curious to see that, but on the other end, I rather trust and make evolve an existing and proven framework, like Qt/Qt designer and GTK/Glade, that wait a few years for a ideal framework that may never see the light of the day
<thorwil> nand: ooh, Blender's framework will be solely for Blender ;)
<nand> I mean, e.g. Clutter sounds and looks really cool. But it won't be before years before it will prove as a viable solution, than we will get a stable version, and that a WYSIWYG GUI builder will be developed
<nand> oh, and yeah, that too :)
<nand> That's a trait of developers too : they are more pragmatic and less prone to imagination, since they actually deal with the framework
<nand> and when I'm imaginating a crazy thing, I am calculating at the same time the time necessary for implementation, and that flush my most craziest ideas :)
<thorwil> nand: if developers were pragamatic, we would have far less duplicated work and languages and toolsets ;)
<nand> yeah, that the scratch-your-own-itch thing that is unfortunately a little too widespread...
<thorwil> i actually think that many developers are flat out irrational regarding editors, programming languages and toolsets :)
<nand> and also all these new shiny new things full of buzzwords that are attracting developers like flees to a bulb
<thorwil> cloud xml on rails!
<nand> you forgot the "Kit" at the end :]
<thorwil> another try if the forum is good for anything: http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?p=6264106#post6264106
<thorwil> gotta run, good night! :)
<nand> gnight!
 * kwwii goes to sleep, dreaming of someday looking this good: http://sinecera.de/sean.png
 * _MMA_ *cannot* believe Mr. Connery actually posed for that. *shudders*
<kwwii> I think it is from some really crappy film he made in the 80's
<kwwii> at least it shows that everyone looks totally stupid from time to time
<_MMA_> Still!! This was *after* being 007. For shame.
<kwwii> hey, maybe he just likes boots ;-)
<_MMA_> Well, yeah. I like a good thigh-high as much as the next guy. I ain't lettin' ya take a picture of it. :P
<kwwii> I had to look at the pic very closely before I beleived it was real
<_MMA_> :)
<_MMA_> Well, even if it *was* Sean;s head on Burt's body I figure it would look about the same. :P
<kwwii> :p
#ubuntu-artwork 2008-11-28
<kwwii> man, sometimes I think I could get a tan from my monitor
<_MMA_> haha
<_MMA_> Im looking at addin' 2 more.
<_MMA_> I just bought another GFX card to drive the other 2.
<kwwii> well, with the two macs and the thinkpad I realized that the monitors are brighter than my lights in the roomo
<_MMA_> I want to run 20",24",20".
<_MMA_> hehe
 * _MMA_ hands Ken some shades.
<kwwii> dude, my dad is going to drive up to san fran (from phoenix) during the UDS to see me
<kwwii> not sure whether to be touched or cry
<kwwii> my dad still has the laptop from his last job before he retired 15 years ago
<kwwii> I asked him if he had internet access and he told me he has his AOL if that is what I mean
<kwwii> this from the guy who was, to some extent, responsible for Unix at Bell Labs all those years ago
<_MMA_> ha! Cool.
<_MMA_> Man I wish I was going to this one. :(
<_MMA_> kwwii: Can't sleep?
<kwwii> _MMA_: nope, not sure what is up...I fell asleep reading a book earlier tonight and woke back up
<_MMA_> Ahh...
<kwwii> my inner clock has gotten kinda messed up
<kwwii> getting used to being awake at the wierdest times
<_MMA_> I'm just finishing up some Breathe work. Done pushing to BZR for now. Mostly placeholder kinda stuff.
<kwwii> oh, yeah...let me check it out on the new computer
<_MMA_> I gotta add some symlinking to the build script. Otherwise, I have redundant images.
<_MMA_> And the folder icon needs sixe work.
<_MMA_> *size
<kwwii> oh yeah, one thing about reflections and such in icons (like the folder)
<kwwii> some apps add a glow effect around icons
<kwwii> which would be totally messed up with any icon ending in transparency
<_MMA_> The reflection is gone. Has been for some time.
<kwwii> cool
<kwwii> hrm, for some reason bzr is not playing nice here
<_MMA_> I just didnt take it of the front page of the wiki.
<_MMA_> *off
<kwwii> ahhh, I forgot to add my ssh key for this computer I guess
<_MMA_> Shouldn't need it to just pull.
<kwwii> I do not have them on this computer already, need to branch them
<kwwii> I and I did a bzr launchpad-login without adding the key
<kwwii> now it works, just takes time
<_MMA_> :)
<kwwii> while I look at this stuff, check out the sounds in http://sinecera.de/DS_UBU_LIN.tar.bz2
<kwwii> hrm, the first thing I notice is that the small versions need work. There is no shame in changing the angle of view slightly for small icons (nothing too radical though, the basic look should be the same)
<kwwii> the remember, small icons will look different than the large sizes if they still look good
<kwwii> otherwise they will look like little small blurry things
<_MMA_> Yep. I'd say half are from Oxygen ATM so let me know which ones you are talking about.
<kwwii> the text editor, for instance
<kwwii> bascially, the apps at 16x16 need work
<kwwii> totem and rythmbox at 22x22
<kwwii> maybe text-editor too
<_MMA_> I wanna be careful with the upstream app icons. I don't wanna screw with their branding too much.
<kwwii> oh, I am not saying you couldn't make the icons work with the current designs
<kwwii> they just need work :-)
<kwwii> making more contrast
<_MMA_> sure, sure.
<kwwii> and more definite lines, etc
 * kwwii was an old-school pixel pusher
<_MMA_> I'd be glad to see you help out. :)
<kwwii> I wish I could find the time
<kwwii> recently I have been working on the panel icons again
<_MMA_> I think once I get placeholders there it will be easier to work on. Just grab and go. People can see what's done and refine.
<kwwii> yes, true
<kwwii> the small icons in oxygen were pretty much crap until david miller came along and starting working on them
<kwwii> he doesn't make many large icons but he made most of the small ones
<kwwii> it takes a totally different mindset than doing semi-photorealistic stuff
<_MMA_> Alot of the mimes only have scaliable ans then 22x22/16x16. So I'm havin' to fill in the gaps.
<_MMA_> s/ans/and
<kwwii> well, I am mainly talking about the 16 and 22 icons anyway
<_MMA_> Gotcha
<kwwii> btw, don't worry about the guy who said it looks like mac
<kwwii> just ignore it
<kwwii> anything else will just piss people off (even if you are right)
<_MMA_> Oh I know. I just didn't feel like being quiet. Even if it was the "PC" thing to do. :P
<kwwii> oh well, just called my mom for thanksgiving...time now for sleep
<kwwii> night all
<_MMA_> Night Ken
<thorwil> hi!
<thorwil> _MMA_, kwwii: i'm not only in favor of creating a moderated mailing list, i'm also in favor of closing the current one. or transforming it. that kindergarden is only a waste of time. even for the children ;)
<_MMA_> thorwil: It's a hard thing to balance. Moderating the current one would be a pain and raise the barrier for entry for alot of people. Would also surely bee seen as elitist. I'm defiantly thinking of open a ML through Launchpad for Breathe so it can have a focused place in which to work. The signal to noise is just too much to deal with.
<thorwil> _MMA_: elitism can be good ;)
<_MMA_> I'd almost rename the current one to art-chat and make a modded one. In the end, I don't know the right answer.
<thorwil> _MMA_: i'd say the forum is the right place for "art-chat"
<kwwii> I tried to get things changed but was ignored
<kwwii> ie I tried to create a new moderated list but my request has been, until now, ignored for whatever reason
<thorwil> sucks
<kwwii> yepp
<thorwil> kwwii: but i really think keeping an unmoderated list around would be a mistake. just take a handful of people of the current list out and all that is left would be blathering
<kwwii> I guess I could just make the current list moderated
<kwwii> thorwil: sure, except every now and then someone talented comes along
<kwwii> we still need some place for newbies, as painful as that can be
<thorwil> kwwii: sure. but the current list will not help us to instill the right behavior and ideas in promising newcomers
<kwwii> thorwil: true
<kwwii> maybe the best thing would be to make it a moderated list
<kwwii> it would cut a lot of people off, but maybe in doing so we could suggest other places for them to hold such discussion
<thorwil> right
<kwwii> (the forum, ubuntu-art.org, etc.)
<thorwil> btw, i had to change plate names in the svg button template once more. just in case anyone reading here is going to use it :)
<kwwii> how well does that work so far?
<thorwil> kwwii: this wel: http://www.gnome.org/~robsta/gtk-css-engine/screenshots/15-single-canvas.png
<kwwii> thorwil: wow, that is pretty good progress
<kwwii> where is this hosted?
<thorwil> gnome svn
<thorwil> http://svn.gnome.org/svn/gtk-css-engine/trunk
<thorwil> kwwii: was going to be on the bzr-playground of gnome, but Rob couldn't lock in there
<kwwii> thorwil: cool, so you edit the theme.svg and make sure the id's in the svg match what is in the theme.css, right?
<thorwil> kwwii: requires librsvg frsh from the repo, i think. havn't actually checked out anything, yet :}
<kwwii> hrm, I will have to bug robsta about this
<thorwil> kwwii: yes. using plates as in the single canvas icon workflow
<thorwil> kwwii: wasn't robsta bugging _you_? ;)
 * thorwil tries to find the librsvg repo
<thorwil> must be http://svn.gnome.org/viewvc/librsvg/trunk/
<thorwil> not
<thorwil> http://svn.gnome.org/svn/librsvg/trunk
<kwwii> thorwil: he never talked to me about this directly
<kwwii> I was talking to him because I was interested in teh gtk-css stuff
<kwwii> hrm, it seems that robsta is offline :-(
<kwwii> not sure if I want to locally install a new librsvg without knowing the consequences first
<thorwil> kwwii: ic. he mentioned a patch allowing to use a single svg as source and i asked him about that ... leading to me making a button template
<thorwil> will have to be build widget by widget
<kwwii> right, it seems like a pretty good start so far
<kwwii> it is very similar to the hildon stuff nokia did/does
<thorwil> kwwii: Rob and I will be happy for any support you can offer :)
<thorwil> i might find out what the consequences of locally installing librsvg trunk are :)
<thorwil> first i need gtk-doc :(
<thorwil> that means gtk-doc-tools. libcroco3-dev, libgsf-1-dev
<kwwii> lol
<thorwil> No package 'libccss-cairo-1' found. gnarg
<kwwii> I wonder which versions are in jaunty already
<thorwil> libccss-cairo-1 must be a typo of some kind, google doesn't know it
<kwwii> or it is built by another package...or the 1 has been added somehow, or, or or
<thorwil> kwwii: well, for inclusion in jaunty, things should be brought on their way early
<kwwii> thorwil: right, I think getting in the pieces we need to work on this stuff now would be a good idea
<thorwil> now, a requirement for a package that doesn't exist at all (no google hits) is a first for me :}
<kwwii> yeah, that sounds pretty b0rked
<kwwii> ahhh, maybe it is the libcss in the gtk-css engine code
<kwwii> didn't they have something like that in there?
<kwwii> Libccss is required by the gtk-css-engine. It's available from http://anongit.freedesktop.org/git/ccss.git/ .
<kwwii> from the readme
<thorwil> oh, right
<thorwil> i should heed that files name, sometimes :)
<thorwil> what the hell is the git equiv of "svn co"?
<thorwil> ah, git clone
<thorwil> everything build and installed
<kwwii> wow, that seems to have went well :-)
<thorwil> still need to find out how to get that into Appearance
<_MMA_> A HOWTO on the ML would be cool if its strait-forward.
<kwwii> yeah, I was just thinking that we should be documenting this process
<kwwii> on the wiki would perhaps be better
<kwwii> then we could update it as things proceed without confusion
<kwwii> oh well, /me cooks dinner (tortelloni alla panna and a green salad)
<thorwil> _MMA_, kwwii: where on the wiki?
<_MMA_> Hmm... Good question.
<_MMA_> Ill be back. Gotta finish up cleaning.
<thorwil> i fail at making the theme selectable, anyway :)
 * thorwil -> dinner
<kwwii> thorwil: I think you need to do something else to actually use the theme
<kwwii> not sure what though
<thorwil> kwwii: robsta will know
<kwwii> thorwil: right
<kwwii> lol, the first and last team report was nov 2007
<_MMA_> :P
<kwwii> ok, I have now added a page under Documentation for the gtk css engine
<thorwil> kwwii: cool. i made notes. will complete as soon as i know the last step :)
<kwwii> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Documentation/GtkCssEngine
<kwwii> thorwil: feel free to change that page however you see fit, I just wanted to get up the basics
<thorwil> finally something happens :)
<kwwii> thorwil: did you get it working?
<thorwil> kwwii: no. didn't even try. i added my notes to the wiki page and emailed rob :)
<thorwil> bbl
<kwwii> cool
<kwwii> if you want to put the sources in /usr/src/ as you suggest you need a sudo before the svn checkout, or?
<kwwii> and isn't there some ./configure stuff missing? at each build ?
<_MMA_> kwwii: Only on 1st pull and build.
<_MMA_> Pullin' and building after that don't need it.
<_MMA_> In my experience anyway.
<robsta> looks like i missed thorwil :/
<thorwil> robsta: almost
<robsta> thorwil: got mail
<robsta> thorwil: if you have any questions, i'll check back in 15min or so
<thorwil> robsta: i'm about to leave, actually. hgope to see you tomorrow :)
<robsta> thorwil: ok, thanks for getting this started
<robsta> or biting, actually :)
<thorwil> robsta: np. things seem to fall into place currently :)
<robsta> thorwil: will be back no monday, no computing on weekends
<thorwil> kwwii: no, these ./autogen.sh do take care of configure, too. i know it isn't always the case
<thorwil> robsta: oh, ok
<robsta> thorwil: more like we are beating them into place
<thorwil> kwwii: could be that i changed permissions on my /usr/src. can you check what is default for me?
<thorwil> gotta go, good night! :)
<robsta> hi _MMA_
<_MMA_> yo
#ubuntu-artwork 2008-11-29
<kwwii> _MMA_ is funky
 * kwwii spent the last few hours "appropriating" (from the trash) a table and heater for our practice room
<kwwii> some might call it stealing, but if someone threw it away it cannot be so bad if we find a new use for it
<kwwii> _MMA_: have you looked into the gtk-css stuff? sound interesting to you?
<kwwii> oh well, time for sleep, night all
<_MMA_> kwwii: It looks neat, but I just don't have the time to dig into it atm.
<thorwil> kwwii: good morning! so do i have to add a sudo for a checkout in /usr/src? if the user does so, can he still work without sudo within the checked out dir?
<thorwil> kwwii: regarding actually using the css-engine, it currently only works in the widget factory :/
<thorwil> is there a environment variable for where gtk should look for themes (and another one for engines)?
<_MMA_> thorwil: "sudo" I would only guess needs to be uses after a /configure. "sudo make install".
<thorwil> _MMA_: thought so. kwwii yesterday said that sudo might be needed to write in /usr/src in the first place. it could be that i changed perimissions on my system and have forgotten about it ;)
<_MMA_> :P
 * thorwil takes on i back
 * thorwil adds one e and cries
<thorwil> anyone around who definitively didn't change permissions/ownership of /usr/src, who can thus tell us what the default is?
<_MMA_> root should own. If you looking for 555 or something like that, I forget. :P
<_MMA_> Advanced permissions shows drwxrwsr-x.
<thorwil> s?
<_MMA_> brb
<thorwil> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Documentation/GtkCssEngine
<thorwil> or do you end up with root owned checkouts that way? apparently i did change permissions to be done with yet another sudo
<_MMA_> If you did a "sudo checkout", yeah. You shouldn't use "sudo" until you install.
<thorwil> _MMA_: that probably means you would have to "sudo mkdir" and chown before checking out in subdirs to do it in a clean way. that's crazy
<_MMA_> Huh? No. If you're grabbin' SVN, CVS, BZR, whatever you put it in your home dir to build it. Then you "sudo make install".
<thorwil> simple, except that it doesn't belong in the home dir
<_MMA_> To *build* it's fine. The "sudo make install" puts things where they should go.
<_MMA_> I just looked at the wiki page. That way works, but its a pain and you will have to do *everything* with "sudo" since you're working' in a root owned dir.
<thorwil> i think that sources only belong in the home dir if you want to install them for that user only. otherwise /usr/src is the place. but default permissions make this too complicated. so fuck it
<_MMA_> Sure. Thats an advanced concept anyway. Most people only run 1 user. So I'd go from that POV.
<_MMA_> I make checkinstall .debs of everything I build.
<thorwil> i'm used to building all my audio software myself, in /usr/src :)  hardly ever had an issue of getting rid of stuff again
<thorwil> now i only lack a clean way of making the theme and engine below /usr/local visible to Appearance/WidgetFactory
<dashua> http://pastebin.com/m6e5b78ad
<dashua> Am I missing a flag when compiling libccss?
<thorwil> dashua: you do have libcroco3 libgsf-1 and their -dev packages?
 * _MMA_ goes for food.
<dashua> thorwil: Yes, I have all of those installed.
<dashua> checking for SVG fragment support in libccss-cairo... no
<dashua> configure: WARNING: libccss-cairo without soup support, SVG fragments will not be supported
<dashua> This is hanging it up.
<dashua> I pulled/updated all of of the svn/git repos up to date.
<thorwil> did i mix the sequence up? hmm, don't think so
<dashua> I can't find a flag in the configure of libccss to enable with-soup
<dashua> No, I think I am missing a configure flag somewhere.
<dashua> thorwil: Does it build fine for you?
<thorwil> dashua: it did, but i can't guarantee that i didn't forget some detail
<dashua> Ah, ok I must be missing something here.
<dashua> Got it
<dashua> ccss-cairo:                      yes
<dashua>     Support for SVG images       yes (requires librsvg-2.0 >= 2.16)
<dashua>     Support for SVG fragments    no (requires libsoup-2.4 librsvg-2.0 >= 2.22.4)
<dashua> Need libsoup2.4-dev
<_MMA_> You might need to install it from the repo.
<thorwil> dashua: i'll add that to the wiki
<dashua> Thx
<dashua> :)
<thorwil> dashua: thank you for trying this out ;)
<dashua> Sure, I tried a while ago in it's early stages
<dashua> Gilouche-CSS was the only test theme at the time
<thorwil> we have a second buttons submission (well, sebastian still needs to add his) https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/KyudoGuidelines/Pieces/Buttons
<dashua> Ah nice
<dashua> I'll be more than happy to test anything out you need.
<thorwil> dashua: btw, Rob warned me to only try the them in the widgetfactory
<dashua> Ok, sure.  Yes, it crashed on me before.  Thx.
<thorwil> heh
 * thorwil ->coffee
#ubuntu-artwork 2008-11-30
<thorwil> behold web2.0 text reflection on some kind of canvas texture: http://alexp0205.files.wordpress.com/2008/11/fsug.jpg =8-D
 * _MMA_ wants to know where he can buy reflective frown canvas.
<_MMA_> Actually, I like the pic other that the shine.
<_MMA_> s/frown/brown
<thorwil> yes, it's not bad otherwise
<kwwii> Q
<kwwii> OOPS
#ubuntu-artwork 2009-11-23
<kwwii> good morning all
<astechgeek> kwwii: Good Morning for you, Good Evening for me lol
<kwwii> astechgeek: yeah, and yesterday I was thinking the same as you ;)
<kwwii> I have (amazingly) been spared the jet-lag this around
<astechgeek> I was wondering with some of the folks that were here how they fared with the time changes.
<kwwii> melatonin seems to have worked very well
<mac_v> kwwii: hi... hmm , "in addition to the actual definition/creation of the icon theme" i didnt understand this? humanity icons already have a clear style
<mac_v> and i also have the icons for many of the apps... well , not for all the apps , but for the ones in the default install and a few i use
 * darkmatter steals mac_vs icons :O
<mac_v> ;)
<kwwii> mac_v: we also discussed how to do the coloring automatically
<kwwii> so a theme author won't have to do the dark/light distinction
<kwwii> in the icons themselves, that is
<mac_v> kwwii: yup , i got that
<kwwii> after going through 20% of 1/3 of the list of apps we had 350+ icons
<kwwii> so this is something that, if done, should be done right
<mac_v> hehe ;)
 * mac_v doesnt really know what Ubuntu's plan really is , so shuts up :)
<kwwii> the plan, as such, is to make everything look as good as possible, as always
<kwwii> :p
<mac_v> awesome plan ;p
<mac_v> kwwii: can we push an update to humanity? for a few bugs which we fixed after release?
<kwwii> mac_v: we can certainly discuss it :) send me an email with a list of proposed changes, perhaps a link to the theme in the form you want suggest for testing
<kwwii> I have been running the latest stuff from Daniel on my laptop
<mac_v> kwwii: not those , those are elementary , the lp:humanity has a few bug fixes
<mac_v> kwwii: https://code.launchpad.net/~elementaryart/humanity/Humanity , rev 413 onwards is after release
<kwwii> mac_v: DanRabbit put humanity in lp:elementaryicons (as well as his very nice gtk and metacity theme
<kwwii> )
<kwwii> mac_v: can you send the info per email so I don't lose it?
<mac_v> kwwii: yeah , we have been experimenting with new icons and merging elementary and humanity closer
<kwwii> getting back up to speed today after UDS
 * mac_v copy pastes lp page in mail ;p
<mac_v> kwwii: you checked out the lp:elementaryicons , right ? is it too far from humanity? most of the changes are going into both the icon themes and we are mostly merging the themes...
<kwwii> mac_v: well, that is something which we'll need to discuss as well
<kwwii> atm, I cannot say any specifics
<kwwii> I'd need to test them first
<mac_v> ;) , sure
<kwwii> as in, actually make sure we are not breaking anything or replacing something which was done on purpose
<mac_v> kwwii: oh , i dont think we have done anything like that... mostly updating the icons
<kwwii> cool
<kwwii> andreasn: hey, I was going to write up something for the -symbolic discussion...pass it around to get a decent addendum for the xdg spec
<andreasn> sounds good!
<knome> hey kwwii
<kwwii> hi knome
<knome> kwwii, you home now? ;P
<knome> kwwii, i am again asking for the uds jaunty group photo:P
<knome> kwwii, +how are you? :)
<kwwii> knome: it is one my flckr page
<kwwii> knome: good, and yourself?
<knome> kwwii, but is it the original size? i mean, the flickr photos have been quite small
<kwwii> I woke up bright and early at 5:30 this morning
<knome> kwwii, i'm fine :)
<kwwii> 4256 x 2832
<kwwii> isn't that big enough?
<knome> is that a new upload?
<knome> kwwii, the photo page on your flickr page says 1096x508 is the original size
<knome> kwwii, am i looking at a wrong photo?
<kwwii> http://www.flickr.com/photos/kwwii/4120389545/sizes/o/
<knome> kwwii, that ain't the uds *jaunty* photo... ;>
<kwwii> :p
<knome> yes i know i'm late
<kwwii> to be honest I don't remember where the file even is :p
<knome> the original or the flickr? :D
<kwwii> I had to search for it on flickr
<knome> hehe
<knome> i could have linked you
<kwwii> I will have to look for it
<knome> okay. thanks a lot again.
<kwwii> I promise to look later tonight after work, ok?
<knome> yeah, no problem
<knome> i'm the one who is a year late
<thorwil> hi kwwii! safely back home
 * mac_v yay and the villagers rejoice on the return of the one named thorwil ;p
<thorwil> heh mac_v , saw you on the IRC beamer projections quite often
<thorwil> decided to stay out of it, though, had enough to do right in place ;)
<mac_v> thorwil: oh on... i was on a beamer.. all my crap was blown bigger ;p
<mac_v> thorwil: what happened about the scrollbar?
<thorwil> mac_v: showed it to mpt, Ivanka and D. Siegel at once
<mac_v> thorwil: and?
<thorwil> mac_v: emailed mvo and invited him to have a look an meet later on. did so. he generally likes it and suggested i talk to ryan lorti
<thorwil> mac_v: the trio seemed somewhat impressed and generally interested. Ivanka asked mpt if they can test it. no further discussion
<thorwil> yet
<mac_v> thorwil: heh , finally you convinced mpt too ;)
<thorwil> mac_v: nah, only actual user testing might convince him, i guess. but he's coll. was good talking with him
<thorwil> mac_v: mvo might have a look at the demo code, but doesn't think he could help in other ways
<thorwil> mac_v: Ryan found it cool and interesting, but is skeptical regarding the need to firts enter the scrollbar area and then move vertically to get to either arrow button. pointed out how you can travel diagonally to sub-menus as example of the problem and one solution
<thorwil> mac_v: he said i should talk with Cody Russell, but i didn't get to that
<mac_v> thorwil: yeah , cody is now doing some gtk stuff/hacking
<mac_v> thorwil: maybe if we had a solid scrollbar like in the google wave scrollbar , we can avoid the need to move the pointer vertically
<thorwil> mac_v: i'm not sure if it's really an issue
<mac_v> thorwil: meh , i like the way it is now.. i dont think it can be done otherwise
<thorwil> Ryan pointed out that Canonical doesn't have much of special equipment for user testing. but i shouldn't even be around on user testing, i'm biased ;)
<mac_v> thorwil: if user moves over the scrollbar area , then we cant access if the user wants to move up or down... the present behavior seems good
<mac_v> thorwil: iirc, it is mostly a camera to record the user interaction , and a set of questions and actions what the user needs to do/perform... it can be done anywhere... just the questions need to be standard ;)
<thorwil> mac_v: yes. just the few possible tasks and observing the actions might be all that is needed, interview optional, even.
#ubuntu-artwork 2009-11-24
<coz_> hey all
<darkmatter> heya coz_
<coz_> darkmatter, `hey guy :)
<darkmatter> coz_: I'm debating dual booting ZevenOS for a proper test drive
<coz_> zevenOs?   I will have to google that one :)
<coz_> StormOs I am wanting to dual witrh
<coz_> with
<darkmatter> coz_: ZevenOS is basially a BeOS inspired linux. it looks like Zeta (even has the deskbar, vcards in the 'people' app, etc, but its all gtk with sawfish as a windowmanager
<coz_> darkmatter,  oh  I in stalled haiku  a couple weeks ago
<darkmatter> coz_: http://www.zevenos.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/12/4058581050_06d3f9e653_o.png
<coz_> oh yeah looks just like Be
<darkmatter> coz_: I'm waiting for haiku to mature and at least become multiuser first
<coz_> darkmatter,  yeah its ok.... my old BE machine isnt working but I still miss BeOs   ...haiku is almost identical though
<coz_> but the name "haiky" is NOT Be Os
<coz_> :)
<coz_> haiku
<darkmatter> yeah. but it comes from BeOS (I miss Be and its haiku messages)
<darkmatter> http://www.zevenos.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/12/4058659684_f3399fc763_o.png <-- needs a better gtk theme though
<coz_> nice:)
<coz_> that theme isnt too bad
<coz_> there are nicer ones though
<darkmatter> coz_: I'd use the haiku theme thats on gnome look. has a few bugs but is more 'traditional' for the Be feel
<coz_> darkmatter,  mm I didnt see that one ...will have to look later :)
<darkmatter> coz_: http://www.gnome-look.org/content/show.php/Haiku?content=106952
<coz_> darkmatter,  yeah but the title bar is across the entire window there?
<darkmatter> coz_: no. thats metacity. if you use xfwm or sawfish (ala xfce and ZevenOS) you have the yellow tab :D
<coz_> oh cool :)
<mac_v> zniavre: hi.. > http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1325768/Screenshot.png ;)
<zniavre> mac_v, how did you make that ?
<mac_v> zniavre: xchat needs you to make a usr/share/xchat/ folder and there you add the .png file :)
<mac_v> for some reason , xchat-gnome creates that folder on its own  , but not xchat :/
<zniavre> do i need to create the folder if does not exists ?
<mac_v> zniavre: it does not exist by default , we need to make one
<zniavre> let me try
<darkmatter> xchat is a relic. it should be buries in museum storage next to bitchx
<darkmatter> buried*
<mac_v> zniavre: once you add the  /usr/share/xchat/xchat.png file just restart xchat :)
<zniavre> haha   :o)
<zniavre> nice
<zniavre> thank you
<mac_v> zniavre: np :)
<zniavre> do you planed to share your icon ?mine is crappy at this moment
<mac_v> zniavre: sure , i made it for a dark panel , what kind of panel do you use?
<zniavre> dark too
<mac_v> great , just a sec
<mac_v> zniavre: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1325768/xchat.png
<mac_v> darkmatter: what do you use for irc?
<darkmatter> mac_v: atm, pidgin. it works well enough, plus it's a single interface instead of Yet Another App (TM)
<darkmatter> I used to use xchat-gnome. but got sick of tray clutter and switching windows
<mac_v> darkmatter: hmm , pidgin works but several irc commands dont work in it ;)  when empathy irc is improved , i'd migrate to empathy :)
<darkmatter> mac_v: yeah. openSUSE is holding off on empathy as default for the same reason I'm not switching: missing basic features
<darkmatter> I'm sure empathy will get there, but it'll take a bit
<zniavre> mac_v,  thank you
<mac_v> np
<mac_v> zniavre: did you figure out vlc icon?
<zniavre> no
<mac_v> hmm , some devs just hardcode the tray icons :/
<zniavre> yes
<zniavre> http://img44.imageshack.us/img44/7530/capturedc.png im quite happy with this xchat icon
<BHSPitMonkey> nice
<BHSPitMonkey> it'd also be nice if xchat had an official vector icon at all :(
<mac_v> xchat doesnt use the svg icon :/  . .it requires only a .png  :(
<BHSPitMonkey> I'm always attracted to monochrome themes, but I find that color ultimately helps me use the UI more effectively
<BHSPitMonkey> I can't recognize an icon as easily in b/w
<mac_v> hehe , the gnome-look icons are all over the place ;) some have 256x256 sizes too for a panel icon :p
<darkmatter> color scheme theft alert! http://customize.org/screenshots/66499/download?v=69515 :O
<darkmatter> great... now my google theme morphed into carrots. tummy... hurts... neeed... food :/
<mac_v> zniavre: the icon of the bird , what app is that for?
<darkmatter> is it orange?
<darkmatter> mac_v: pidgin crashed, cant see his link anymore. did it perhaps look like this? http://s3.amazonaws.com/satisfaction-production/s3_images/18230/songbird_inline.png
<mac_v> darkmatter: the bird in this > http://img44.imageshack.us/img44/7530/capturedc.png
<darkmatter> hmmm... that looks strangely familiar. curse you monochrome!
<mac_v> that looks more like a teradactyl actually   ;p
<darkmatter> lol.. I was just thinking a similar thought xD
<zniavre_> mac_v,  the icon is for nicotine+
<mac_v> oh... no now kwwii will have the urge to go out for a smoke ;p
<darkmatter> mac_v: the most fitting nicotine+ icon I've ever seen was a package of cigarettes
 * mac_v tries to figure out what nicotine+ actually is for :)
<zniavre_> its a p2p using soulseek server
<mac_v> oh...
<zniavre_> nobodies perfect ...   :o)
<BHSPitMonkey> I'm noticing something strange in the Humanity theme in Karmic
<BHSPitMonkey> The SVG versions of icons are in the 48x48 folder, instead of scalable/...
<BHSPitMonkey> Is this a new convention?
<BHSPitMonkey> Oh, dumb me
<BHSPitMonkey> They're SVGs optimized for those resolutions I guess
<darkmatter> mac_v: check the menu. much more fitting imo. http://fc09.deviantart.net/fs9/i/2006/036/2/6/Mint_2_0_by_Lokheed.png
<mac_v> BHSPitMonkey: all icons are svgs , even the 16px :)
<BHSPitMonkey> mac_v: \o/
<mac_v> in humanity*
<BHSPitMonkey> This pleases me
<BHSPitMonkey> My iPod is going to look *slick* :P
<mac_v> darkmatter: the buddy list? how is the ethernet port going to signify offline ;) ?
<mac_v> does the online have a wire plugged in.. ? then it would work i guess :)
<darkmatter> mac_v: the nicotine icon in the meny :P better and more appropriate metaphor than the pterodactyl. as I have no clue as to how a flying lizard is related to a chemical constituent of tobacco :P
<mac_v> darkmatter: oh , that.... just need to cross fingers that Marlboro doesnt sue  ;p
<darkmatter> lol
<zniavre_> darkmatter,  cause real soulseek.exe client
<BHSPitMonkey> mac_v: do you know the name of the icon overlay used for symlinks?
<darkmatter> ahh
<BHSPitMonkey> (the little "shortcut" arrow)
<zniavre_> gnome-dev-symlink.   no ?
<mac_v> BHSPitMonkey: emblem-symbolic-link also
<mac_v> is used
<darkmatter> nice. my 11.2 is coming in at ~705kB/s
<zniavre_> darkmatter,  i re-made slsk icon theme for nicotine (wich slsk author does not want them available for everybody ) http://img526.imageshack.us/img526/4167/capture1z.png
<darkmatter> zniavre_: looks good
<mac_v> zniavre_: the icons look good , but maintain a constant icon padding  , 3px height for 22px icons and 4px height for 24px icons
<zniavre_> :o)   first shot in svg
<zniavre_> mac_v,  noted !   thank you
<mac_v> zniavre_: 22px always start from 3px , try to finish with a top padding of 3px but if required use one more px but not more than that... keep at minimum 2px padding. the 24px is just the 22px icons with added padding of 1px around them
<BHSPitMonkey> http://img692.imageshack.us/img692/7748/quickshottrjk.png :)
<knome> BHSPitMonkey, what's that device?
<BHSPitMonkey> knome: iPod Touch (iPhone)
<knome> right.
<knome> i hope i can someday have an open source OS in my LG KS20.
<BHSPitMonkey> I've used a Human theme up till now, and now I'm working on the Humanity update
<knome> looks good.
<BHSPitMonkey> Unfortunately no open source OSes on the iPhone yet
<BHSPitMonkey> But at least I can feel like I have one :P
<knome> the google earth icon is a bit blurry.
<BHSPitMonkey> perhaps
<BHSPitMonkey> I'll probably lose some interest in this iPod once my G1 comes in
<knome> hehe
<knome> you can send the ipod to me then
<BHSPitMonkey> heh
<BHSPitMonkey> My hardware, for the moment, is neither Free-as-in-speech nor free-as-in-beer, I'm afraid :P
<BHSPitMonkey> (It's mine-as-in-I-bought-it!)
<knome> heh
<knome> okay
<knome> i have to go HOME now! :)
<BHSPitMonkey> adios
<knome> o/
<kwwii> if you hadn't noticed, I made a wiki page in the documentation with some plymouth info
<kwwii> updated the flickr group info as well
<kwwii> add any and all info you find or learn about plymouth to the wiki page
<darkmatter> http://www.winsupersite.com/images/alt/chromeos_preview_07.jpg <--- google needs a better login experience
<zniavre_> vlc can use a .ico icon on Linux distrib ?
<thorwil> kwwii: hi! what would be the right wiki page for the wallpaper-contest gobby document?
<kwwii> thorwil: good question, I guess Artwork/XtraWallpaper or such
<kwwii> erm, Lucid/XtraWallpaper
<kwwii> you get the point ;)
<kwwii> thorwil: hi, hope you made it home ok?
<thorwil> ah, nice way to get around "Specs"
<thorwil> kwwii: yes. i just slept last night from 23:50 to 11:00 :)
<kwwii> yepp, pretty much
<thorwil> kwwii: how was your trip?
<kwwii> mine was good (nothing went wrong)
<kwwii> I slept most of the flight back
<thorwil> kwwii: -> pm
<thorwil> kwwii: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Incoming/Lucid/Wallpaper_Contest_Planning
<thorwil> kwwii: now linked to from https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu-wallpapers/+spec/wallpaper-contest
<kwwii> oops, sorry, I was stuck in inkscape
<thorwil> np
<kwwii> thorwil: looks perfect, thanks ;)
<thorwil> kwwii: you're welcome. i'm about to send mail about it to the list
<kwwii> thanks for working on this...it would be good if we could keep the community involved as much as possible on this project
<mac_v> kwwii: did you get the mail regarding the updates?
<kwwii> mac_v: yeah, just haven't had time to go through things yet
#ubuntu-artwork 2009-11-25
<LIB53> can someone tell what dimensions i need to create my wallpapers
<LIB53> i did 1600x1200. i think that might be too small
<thorwil> http://bettertastethansorry.com/2009/11/eike-konig-everyday-is-like-christmas/
 * darkmatter looks for something to do
<darkmatter> and hello coz_
<coz_> darkmatter,  hey guy  good morning :)
<darkmatter> :)
<darkmatter> today is a big day! I'm getting of my lazy butt, tossing in my new dvd burner, doing a backup, and installing openSUSE 11.2!
<coz_> darkmatter,  whoa  ... so you like opensuse
<darkmatter> coz_: always have. I liked it when it was SuSE too
<coz_> darkmatter,  oh yeah ... I remember now...sorry...sometimes keeping track of what everyone uses is  difficult :(
<darkmatter> np :)
<darkmatter> coz_: suse has always been present on my system. I've ran other os's as well, but suse is my primary because I've never had any real issues with it
<darkmatter> no os is perfect, and mileage varies etc etc. but it 'works for me' as they say ;)
<coz_> darkmatter,   I forget why I didnt continue with suse...it's been a while... although I do have the current on cd
<coz_> darkmatter,  yeah exactly
<darkmatter> downloaded both the cd and dvd this time. going to make a hacking plan of the live cd (have a spar rw somewhere), then pop in the dvd and give the new and improved yast installer a test drive
<coz_> I may have to try suse again... but  I always go back to ubuntu for some reason
<coz_> but I think I have come the the conclusion that...although its  a good experience to try other distributions... stick with what you know :)
<darkmatter> I already know on thing I'm hacking: gdm. suse has a space saving feature that hides the clock at 1024 nd under, so I'm going to kill the patch in the build. also considering ubuntu's gdm patches (modified as needed) sine suse uses a fairly vanilla layout
<coz_> darkmatter, I think I have gotten lazy :)  I just want things to work ... no configuring...nor compiling...I just want to install and  go.... although I think the main thing is I just need to learn more.... my coding skills are falling way behind,,,
<darkmatter> coz_: meh... it just works, and it's not a feature I 'need', it's a feature I want
<coz_> :)
<darkmatter> coz_: it's the designer in me. while I have no intentions of building my own gdm version, I still want to polish it up as much as possible. heck, half the things I do to linux aren't necessary :P
<coz_> darkmatter,  that I really understand :)
<darkmatter> I even did some basic hacking on the main menu this install (I'll cotinue in the next install), gave it a normal button state (for additional themability. switched to the distributor-logo, started a few hacks on the actual window of the menu but decided to hold off since I'll have to do it all again anyway)
<coz_> darkmatter,  ")
<darkmatter> coz_: http://img262.imageshack.us/img262/5673/screenshotqm.png
<coz_> nice for sure :)
<coz_> darkmatter,  I like the panel layout
<coz_> darkmatter,   although I prefer upper panel to bottom
<coz_> darkmatter,  that's attractive
<coz_> darkmatter,  is that a gtk theme of yours?
<darkmatter> coz_: aye. suse's default, only 8 pixels taller (24 pixels looks odd) plus the beginings of a hack on Sonar (suse's theme now), custon panel pixmap and lighter toolbars thus far. soo pixmap button (with a 'glow' on the menu button), pixmap scrollbars, etc. Sonar is very nice, but is plain-ish and has a few issues (the slab is to dark, it should use the shades from the bg-color and the notebook color imo)
<darkmatter> coz_: no, the theme is by jimmac, I just tweaked it slightly
<coz_> darkmatter,  the overall is real nice though :)
<darkmatter> coz_: aye. that's one thing that is generally overlooked. its the 'overall' impression that matters. most distros: "we have a decent wallpaper, thats all we need" or "we have a nice icon theme" etc etc
<coz_> darkmatter,  no arguments here :)    I think that is what the work  "theme" means :)
<darkmatter> coz_: the one part of suse's default I don't like is the wallpaper. they have a dark theme (the one in my screenie) and a dark wall.... dark themes look like crap on dark backgrounds. its a matter of contrast
<coz_> darkmatter,  yep... I think dark themes are by far the most difficult to make... the right values...the right greys..etc.etc
<darkmatter> http://en.opensuse.org/Image:112m8GIMP.png <-- the wallpaper kills it
<coz_> most I have seen have the wrong values ..the test is too bright or too colorful or unreadable
<coz_> darkmatter,  eeewww   bad wallpaper
<coz_> darkmatter,  again a matter of no artistic insight
<darkmatter> coz_: Sonar has nice values. the default toolbar gradient is too dark though. I just lightened/inverted it on my end. even the 'grey' jimmac chose is nice, since its actually green :P
<coz_> yeah that wallpaper is the wrong green ,,,
<coz_> and the panel is far too dark and plain ...at least on that screenshot
<darkmatter> yup. which is why I modded the panel :P
<coz_> :)
<darkmatter> coz_: there is 'one' are where suse cant be beat... ever http://en.opensuse.org/Image:OS11.2M7-install3.png
<coz_> that's nice
<darkmatter> the installer has become a work of art
<coz_> mmm I want that on here:)
<coz_> ubuntu's isnt bad recently though
<darkmatter> coz_: one thing I'd love to see other distro's borrow/do on there own http://en.opensuse.org/Image:OS11.2-repair1.png <-- recovery
<coz_> a repair tool?
<coz_> cool
<darkmatter> yup. the dvd comes with a suite of recovery utilities
<coz_> darkmatter,  are the recovery utilities available on cd separately?
<darkmatter> ummm.. not sure. they're not on the live cd's but the packages are in the repos iirc
<coz_> cool
<coz_> darkmatter,  I am just so used to  deb packages :)
<darkmatter> coz_: yeah. but they have sources too :P with all the various open source goodies, you'd think distros would mix and match more
<coz_> darkmatter,  well yeah you would think..but I think the distributions like to "compete" with their own special little tools and such :)
<darkmatter> like, suse could bring over the restricted drivers thingy from ubuntu (atm the drivers are through one-click)
<darkmatter> one click is nice, buts its not truly one-click (although garret has a redesign proposed to make it literally one click)
<coz_> darkmatter,  last time I tried suse with one click stuff I was somewhat impressed  I thought the idea was cool anyway
<darkmatter> coz_: I really hope tey implement the redesign http://ux.suse.de/~garrett/public/hackweek/oneclick/mockups/oneclick-mockup-disable%20widgets.png
<coz_> darkmatter,  oooo  that is nice ... I like that progression
<darkmatter> oops. wrong version. http://ux.suse.de/~garrett/public/hackweek/oneclick/mockups/oneclick-mockup-trust%20and%20install.png the other one was 2-clicks :P
<darkmatter> coz_: yeah. its clean and clear. the current one-click feels like a windows installer :/
<coz_> ooo  eeww
<darkmatter> coz_: it's click > click > are you sure? > password > installs
<coz_> darkmatter, yeah that's definitly not enough   information or user input
<darkmatter> thus the 'windows' feel. that redesign is great because its "shut up and give me my software!"
<coz_> :)
<darkmatter> coz_: the current design gives a fair amount of info, but it's basically a wizard. I prefer 'shut up and do what I tell you too you effen OS!" approach to software design. I call it "click less, do more' phylosophy
<coz_> i agree
<darkmatter> I also follow a very strict pattern in design. painless configurations (avoid preference dialogs whereever possible)menus are inherently evil, etc
<darkmatter> menus are acceptable for the root (desktop) menu and for file operations, and thats about it. for things like panel applets, they should have a 'flyout' with access to common controls and preferences (if the app(let)has them)
<coz_> darkmatter,  mmm  if I understand you... I might disagree on that a bit... the more options available to the user the better
<darkmatter> coz_: yes and no. the pint is 'good' design doesn't require a lot of options. one of the reasons we have so many options is because of poor design
<coz_> darkmatter,  mm  I might agree with that :)
<coz_> darkmatter,  but  individualization is uppermost in my mind
<kwwii> hey kids, what's up?
<darkmatter> coz_: you'll have to wait until my mockups are done to really get a gander at what I mean. but it's not about hindering individualism, its about a 'smarter' environment
<coz_> darkmatter,   I always like to see them for sure :)
<coz_> kwwii,  hey guy
<coz_> kwwii,  just a discussion on the look and feel of    distributions
<kwwii> coz_: ooh, I like to bitch about others people work too ;)
<kwwii> kinda funny, seeing how suse is progressing after I left
<darkmatter> coz_: part of the 'less options' is through centralized 'global' preferences as opposed to a bazillion apps with a bazillion settings (there will be comprimises of course (hopefully only temporary ones :P) if it actually sees the light of day as an actual project).
<coz_> kwwii,   lol     I truly understand
<coz_> darkmatter,  ok then that I nearly agree with
<coz_> darkmatter,  but you know what the developers will say?  "do you know how much coding that would require?:
<darkmatter> coz_: the design I've been working on is truly integrated. it uses a services concept as opposed to an applications one. basically, the 'dream' is to have an environment that provides things at a global level (the internet is a service, media is a service, etc), and to call combinations of services/subservices that are needed for <whatever> job... with gui of course
<coz_> cool
<darkmatter> coz_: depends on the dev. I'm looking for peple like me (the 'I enjoy a challenge' type), I've found a few who may be interested, but its still tentative. plu I want input from other user interction designers as well
<darkmatter> coz_: basically I want to start up a 'skunkworks' project, even if it doesn't live up to the dream, at least it will provide some interfaces and technologies
<coz_> darkmatter,  the "mind set" is chaning... I dont know if I told you ...but I talked with a few of the developers at carnegie mellon's robotics lab and posed the question... "how do you define a programmer and what do you see as the role of the artist in that process?"
<darkmatter> actual hardcore RnD, something that is technically missing from the *nix world
<darkmatter> coz_: what was the reply?
<coz_> darkmatter,  the response was a good one... the main concept was that  the artist is  necessary  since how an applications is going to be used and seen by a user is as important as its funtionality
<coz_> darkmatter,  so the  general "old"  perception that "art" is the "fun" part  is slowly being phased out
<darkmatter> coz_: good to hear. I was thourougly fed up with the predictable 'design = bloat' crap :P
<coz_> darkmatter,   oh yeah.. but that is an "old" developer concept
<darkmatter> coz_: I'm surprised it wasn't phased out ages ago, since its been common knowledge for... umm... forever ;)
<coz_> darkmatter,  mainly because developers...as well you know...are rarely ,, if ever...capable of quality art incorporation
<coz_> darkmatter,  well it is slow to move on.... I still talk with a few developers who believe that they are gods etc etc...and they are only like 18 years old... thats not good... an outdated perception will only get in the way
<darkmatter> coz_: you forgot 'the majority are also narcissistic and take any suggestions as negative criticisms/insults' :P
<coz_> darkmatter,  these guys were not narcissistic that I could tell... they had a genuine appreciation for the artists role in development
<coz_> darkmatter,  right now I am having a subdued disapreement with one of the compiz devs on the splash screen... the ones  I have made in the past were ok and accepted ....now with the new compiz I wanted a more sleek professional look but one of the insistes on the older ones
<coz_> disagreement
<coz_> darkmatter,  I dont mind critisism and the developers making final decision on this but  not at the expense of good taste
<darkmatter> coz_: *nix may be mainly 'we do this for free in our free time', but it really should learn from the professional/corporate developmental industry. just because its 'free' doesn't mean it should take a substandard approach
<darkmatter> coz_: indeed
<coz_> darkmatter,  i agree with that as well...
<darkmatter> coz_: in other words. primary ux designer for the environment as a whole (gnome, kde, whatever), the small team backing him, and working in conjunction with the devs to make something that is consistent, usable, and aesthetically appealing
<darkmatter> or her
<kwwii> to be honest, the way things have worked until now could never have produced good solid design
<kwwii> but things they are a changing
<darkmatter> indeed
<coz_> darkmatter,  yeah  the developers need to understand that creating a pleasing consistent and artistically sound desing takes as much effort as coding the application
<coz_> design
<coz_> kwwii,  and indeed  the  atmosphere is definitly changing
<coz_> I just dont like to see one young developers being taken under the wings of an arrogant one  which will only continue the "old" approach
<kwwii> coz_: luckily, the people moving into this area are not from the linux world ;)
<coz_> kwwii,   I havent thought of that :)
<kwwii> and anyone with half a brain knows that you don't let them sit in a room full of developers alone :p
<darkmatter> coz_: an example of 'good'.. nay... 'great' design was from on of the labs during the second code reset of longhorn(vista) when hillel cooperman was the head UX designer. it was the one often called 'Air' and 'Excalibur' by the windows community. to bad they scrapped it when he left :/
<darkmatter> coz_: I will admit some influence from his ideas. it was hillel and his team that really tried to push a more services style direction on windows (which never took off... middle management killed it). basically the idea that you don't need an IM client, or an email program, because the ability to read/check mail, chat, phone/voice conference etc is built into the base system and gui.
<coz_> darkmatter,  oh for windows?  well sure  third party developers would lose money no?
<darkmatter> it was a concept I always liked, I just expanded on it and began work on my own implementation 'design and a little bit of planning on how to do it in code)
<darkmatter> coz_: thats probably why middle management killed it
<coz_> for sure
<coz_> darkmatter,  is there a suse 11.2  compiz repo?
<darkmatter> coz_: yup
<coz_> darkmatter,  do you have a link to that by chance?
<darkmatter> suse has tons of repos now
<darkmatter> sec
<darkmatter> theres actually two, but I assume you want the fusion repo, so
<darkmatter> http://download.opensuse.org/repositories/X11:/Compiz/openSUSE_11.2/
<coz_> darkmatter,  ok thanks...someone on compiz was  having issues :)
<darkmatter> kk
<talat> hi all,
<talat> I open Ubuntu Q&A website - http://www.ubuntu-tr.net
<thorwil> great: http://www.ubuntu-tr.net/about/
#ubuntu-artwork 2009-11-26
 * mac_v is away: Auto-away after 3 mins idle (gone at 26th Nov, 13:31:07)
<kartook> any onme
<kartook> hello
<kwwii> mac_v: just answered your email
<mac_v_> kwwii: ah , thanks :)
<kwwii> thanks for the good work ;)
<kwwii> I've been really busy this week
<mac_v_> kwwii: heh.. ;)  that will probably be the last update for Karmic , revs after that will be for Lucid
<kwwii> sounds good
<kwwii> I'll get in touch once I know when/what/where/why ;)
<mac_v_> lol ;p
<thorwil> damn: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Incoming/Wasp
<thorwil> i despise having some stuff directly in Incoming. historical reasons be damned
<thorwil> best of all, his LP user link is broken
 * mac_v scratches head... cant find the said theme 
<thorwil> there's an ongoing Rename just now
<thorwil> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Incoming/Lucid/Wasp
<mac_v> thorwil: is Incoming just a preview location or  shouldnt the user include the theme?
<mac_v> i was hoping to see what he had done to fix OOo ;)
<thorwil> mac_v: Incoming should be just the parent for ..., Jaunty, Karmic, Lucid, ...
<mac_v> thorwil: yeah , i got that :)... i meant ...> why didnt the user upload the theme
<thorwil> mac_v: but since we already had long-going theme efforts right in there, we now have the rul that those can stay there and new ones can be added
<thorwil> mac_v: but no theme should start out directly in Incoming
<mac_v> yup , agreed ;)
<thorwil> just this morning i deleted 2 attachments to the backgrounds guidelines page
<thorwil> people so blind to the structure, adding stuff where no one else does, irritate me to no end
<mac_v> thorwil: i think we need to add a link to a how-to-use-wiki tutorial in the artwork page
<thorwil> mac_v: feel invited to write it. the reading-impaired will kick you in the balls without knowing ;)
 * thorwil looks at the code of conduct he signed and shakes head
<mac_v> thorwil: lol , I didnt mean i would write it .... i meant a link to somewhere in the web ... there must be a link for that
 * mac_v searches
<mac_v> thorwil: something like this > http://ang.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:How_to_edit_a_page
<mac_v> sometimes users just didnt know how to add the content
<mac_v> or simpler > http://wiki.contextgarden.net/How_to_edit_wiki_pages
<thorwil> mac_v: sure. but it would have to be a prefect match to our wiki. and where the heck to put that, so every newcomer will see?
<mac_v> thorwil: yeah... where to put it is the real question ;p   i dont know :(
<almagest_divine> hey
<mac_v> !hi | almagest_divine
<ubottu> almagest_divine: Hi! Welcome to #ubuntu-artwork! Feel free to ask questions and help people out. The channel guidelines are at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/IrcGuidelines. Enjoy your stay!
<thorwil> mac_v: maybe bring it up on the list.
<mac_v> we have crappy bot questions...
 * mac_v goes to the -ops ;)
<mac_v> bot responses*
<almagest_divine> lol
<almagest_divine> so? how are you?
<mac_v> !hi is <reply> Hi! Welcome to #ubuntu-artwork! Channel for the community artwork team. Feel free to ask questions . Enjoy your stay!
<mac_v> !contribute
<ubottu> To contribute and help out with Ubuntu, see http://www.ubuntu.com/community/participate
<thorwil> mac_v: look at this attachment to our home page https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork?action=AttachFile&do=view&target=LINUX_155.jpg
<mac_v> lol...
 * thorwil wants notifications on adding and deleting attachments
<mac_v> !contribute is <reply> For information on current team activity and on contributing to the Ubuntu Community artwork , Kindly read Wiki:  http://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork
<mac_v> !contribute is <reply> For information regarding current Artwork team activity and about contributing to the Ubuntu Community artwork , Kindly read Wiki:  http://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork
<thorwil> mac_v: you should have answered how you are to almagest_divine ;p
<mac_v> thorwil: meh...  i like bots better ;p
<mac_v> !contribute
<ubottu> For information regarding current Artwork team activity and about contributing to the Ubuntu Community artwork , Kindly read Wiki:  http://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork
<mac_v> !hi
<ubottu> Hi! Welcome to #ubuntu-artwork! Channel for the community artwork team. Feel free to ask questions . Enjoy your stay
<almagest_divine> hey
<almagest_divine> what is the best ubuntu theme?
<zniavre> this one for sure : http://gnome-look.org/content/show.php/zni3?content=86285
<zniavre> :o)
<almagest_divine> any other theme? ;)
<mac_v> !best
<ubottu> Usually, there is no single "best" application to perform a given task. It's up to you to choose, depending on your preferences, features you require, and other factors. Do NOT take polls in the channel. If you insist on getting people's opinions, ask BestBot in #ubuntu-bots.
<mac_v> almagest_divine: ^
<mac_v>  ;)
<almagest_divine> :)
<almagest_divine> by best i meant a nice theme
<zniavre> :o)
<zniavre> it's ful of very nice theme on gnome-look.org
<almagest_divine> yeah i was just viewing them
<almagest_divine> thanks
<almagest_divine> ok so i am done with #ubuntu-bots. they are really dumb.
<almagest_divine> does ubuntu-studio has a theme of it own?
<zniavre> you got it inside synaptic you can try it easily
<almagest_divine> ok so it exists. great. i thought its just the wallpaper. thanks
<zniavre> ubuntustudio-theme , ubuntustudio-wallpapers  , ubuntustudio-icon-theme
<almagest_divine> isnt it better than others? i am not conducting a poll. just asking
<zniavre> ubuntustudio-look installs all package needed
<zniavre> i said the best one is mine   ^^
<almagest_divine> yes i know but what is the second best?
<zniavre> there is not
<zniavre> i do not know in fact
<almagest_divine> wow thats really nice
<zniavre> there is plenty of nice theme let's try some and make your own idea
<almagest_divine> so what is this channel about? artwork?
<almagest_divine> ok sure
<zniavre> im not into artwork team
<almagest_divine> me neither.
<zniavre> i just want to learn design bases here
<almagest_divine> omg i have the ubuntu studio theme already installed. i used to love it but never noticed the  name
<thorwil> mac_v: so finally i have and idea on how the google wave scrollbars work, thanks to http://ignorethecode.net/blog/2009/11/15/google_waves_scrollbars/
<almagest_divine> i have been to fedora-art but they were not nice people
<almagest_divine> i just asked them a serious question and they got offended
<thorwil> almagest_divine: what was the question? :)
<almagest_divine> i dont want to offend you too. but if you are asking for it so here it is
<almagest_divine> i just asked them : who owns fedora?
<almagest_divine> isnt that simple enough?
<almagest_divine> thorwil: what do you think?
<thorwil> almagest_divine: maybe not as trivial as one might think, initially, but not a good reason to get offended
<mac_v> thorwil: ah.. you should have got an account when you were at the UDS ;)  iirc popey/czajkowski still has a lot of them left :)
<mac_v> have*
<almagest_divine> thorwil: that is what i told them that this is a nice question.
<almagest_divine> and at the end i found out nobody knew the answer. :)
 * mac_v hopes almagest_divine doesnt find out  , that mac_v owns fedora ;p
<mac_v> damn it!
<almagest_divine> wow thanks. let me inform them too
<thorwil> almagest_divine: i would guess fedora is backed by redhat, that they have a few employees directly working on it and it's likely they own the trademark
<almagest_divine> thorwil: yes redhat is the only sponsor and has formed it so definitely redhat owns fedora
<almagest_divine> it owns every copyright and logo of fedora
<almagest_divine> when i told tham the truth, they got offended
<almagest_divine> them*
 * thorwil gets coffee
 * almagest_divine suspects some internal conflicts between redhat and fedora team
<kwwii> mac_v: ok, talked to pitti...he says we should put them in lucid first and then we can think about backporting at least two of the changes
<kwwii> mac_v: essentially, they don't want to update without a very good reason
<mac_v> kwwii: sure , no probs
<kwwii> so I'll add it to the release stuff for lucid
<kwwii> which keeps that on track anyway
<kwwii> and then we can make a branch for a possible karmic update
<kwwii> I think that we have a good chance of getting an update if we do it right
<mac_v> kwwii: cool.. so you can just branch the main humanity and i dont have to anything right?
<kwwii> mac_v: right
<mac_v> great :)
<kwwii> ;)
<almagest_divine> some people talk divinity
<mac_v> almagest_divine: whom did you ask actually? the artwork team? BTW , what was the actual intent of the question? just to know more about the company or gathering trivia for... ?
<almagest_divine> well its a long story. we were discussing something and this question arised
<almagest_divine> and their answer was nobody owns us and we are free, and stuff
<almagest_divine> then i asked : who is redhat then?
<almagest_divine> they said redhat is just a minor sponsor nothing else
<kwwii> well, just because redhat backs them doesn't mean anything special, really...they do get to do what they want a lot
<kwwii> I wouldn't make a big deal out of redhat "owning" fedora
<kwwii> Novell owns OpenSuse
<almagest_divine> well, tellme one thing. if you form a company and pay for its finances and own the right to everything and in the board of directors you have 5 out of 9 plus the chairman is yours who can turn down any deal or idea in fedora
<kwwii> if you want to be really free of all of that, install debian
<almagest_divine> then according to you who is the owner of your company?
<kwwii> oh, they do own them. I'm not saying anything about that
<kwwii> they do not take part in every decision though
<kwwii> I mean, it is based on redhat code, so redhat is an upstream in that sense
<almagest_divine> they wont have enough time to look at each and every matter
<almagest_divine> its a big company
<almagest_divine> just wants money
<kwwii> I think that if you look closely enough, everybody wants something out of this ;)
 * mac_v wonders why this topic is being discussed here ;p
<kwwii> one way or another
<kwwii> no doubt
<almagest_divine> sorry for that
<kwwii> I just like to make pretty pictures :p
<almagest_divine> i like to edit audio, video and images
<almagest_divine> well somebody that is drinking coffee right now asked me about the question
<almagest_divine> i really like mark shuttleworth. a good entrepreneur
<almagest_divine> hey why do people say not to install karmic now?
<mac_v> almagest_divine: who says that ?
 * mac_v karmic works better for me ;)
<almagest_divine> some of my friends. that it has a lot of bugs
<mac_v> almagest_divine: nah... all distros have bugs ... and all versions have bugs...
<almagest_divine> mac_v: are you the channel admin?
<mac_v> almagest_divine: nope
<almagest_divine> who is it then?
<almagest_divine> i see people are good here.
<almagest_divine> i dont know about the ones who are silent, but the ones who are talking are fine
<mac_v> almagest_divine: oh no ,we aernt ;p we havent warmed up yet ;)
<almagest_divine> mac_v: tell me before you warm up;)
<almagest_divine> when you are about to warm up, tell me so that i can call duffy here ;)
<almagest_divine> see you again:) bye
<kwwii> boah
<thorwil> somehow i have issues with being included in "good people" or some such
<thorwil> maybe it dates back to when some girls called me "nice" and it seemed to mean not-a-potential-mate
<kwwii> nice is probably better than "good friend"
<thorwil> protected ubuntu trade dress? http://doctormo.wordpress.com/2009/11/25/ubuntu-trade-dress-derivatives/
#ubuntu-artwork 2009-11-27
 * mac_v yay , just converted the whole panel monochrome ;p
<mac_v> http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1325768/Screenshot-6.png
<mac_v> kwwii_: for firefox i just realized , we dont need firefox to submit change the icon , we could just assign a monochrome icon in Ubuntu
<mac_v> firefox to change*
<kwwii_> mac_v: hrm? not sure I understand
<kwwii_> ahhh, the app icons
<kwwii_> well, that is going to be a problem
<kwwii_> I do not think they will do it
<mac_v> kwwii_: couldnt we just change it in Ubuntu? or color app icons in panel is fine?
<kwwii_> I think that long-term, the plan is to not have app icons in the panel
<mac_v> ah , ok
<darkmatter> iirc it's against the mozilla 'identity' for distro's to change the icons. I'm pretty sure it's in the license
 * mac_v hides ;p
<mac_v> hehe , once i converted all the colors to grey , it looks like that part of screen is only B&W ;)
 * darkmatter is breaking in his new DVD burner
<darkmatter> I actually facepalmed after I installed it
<darkmatter> had atapi errors, spent an hour troubleshooting, then realized I forgot to set the jumpers :P
<zniavre_> http://img205.imageshack.us/img205/9781/capturewv.png     srtange behaviour of rgba
<darkmatter> welll. more accurately strange behavior of webkit with rgba enabled. but close enough :P
<zniavre_> :o)
<kwwii_> no worries about rgba, we have a gtk patch we're working on ;)
<zniavre_> truly ?
<zniavre_> wow !!!
<kwwii_> yepp
<zniavre_> that s good new
<kwwii_> I have it running on my laptop
<kwwii_> but it is still early days
<kwwii_> the first few weeks firefox wouldn't even start :p
<zniavre_> :o)
<kwwii_> this is nice because you can control it in the theme file on a per class basis
<zniavre_> here it starts with rgba module from gnome-look but crash with flash
 * zniavre_ is happy to learn this today
<kwwii_> and with client side window decorations we will hvae truly round windows as well
<kwwii_> no more distinction between window deco and contents
<kwwii_> but anyway
<mac_v> kwwii_: when is cody gonna land the changes in lucid?
<kwwii> mac_v: sooner rather than later ;)
<zniavre_> is there a way to try it too? (as beta tester )
<mac_v> cool :)
<zniavre_> :o)
<kwwii> not yet because it isn't ready yet
<kwwii> but there will be
<zniavre_> roooo
<kwwii> iirc sometime around the middle of december
 * mac_v considers bribing cody for early preview ;p
<kwwii> ie a couple of weeks
<darkmatter> rgba is overrated in most cases. it's yet another example of 'not invented here'. it *would* be useful if it had a direction other than 'oooo... shiny!'
<kwwii> yepp, what you do with it is the important part
<darkmatter> but the client side deco is promising
<kwwii> we are interested in rgba to be able to have the unfocused windows go slightly transparent...but only the win-deco, toolbar, etc. ie not the content area
<mac_v> kwwii: you can already do that in metacity , the window decorations atleast ;)
<kwwii> mac_v: it is not the same as what I mean though
<darkmatter> kwwii: it would also be useful in certain child windows. like find/replace in gedit etc
<mac_v> kwwii: but wouldnt it be weird , when the content is hovering in midair....   would be tricky to get the right transparency :)
<darkmatter> brb. tst booting the dvd
<zniavre_> kwwii,  is it possible to see a screenshot from your laptop (i would like to see the rounded windows, im not sure to understand what you meant)
<zniavre_> ?
<mac_v> zniavre_: kwwii works for MI6 , he probably wont show us his desktop ;p
<zniavre_> mac_v, i was sure of this point too ...
<kwwii> zniavre_: sorry, that stuff isn't even started yet
<zniavre_> :o)
<mac_v> kwwii: Bug #458250 , how does humanity have to fix this ? [i dont know what is wrong :(  ]
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 458250 in example-content "Examples folder has no icon" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/458250
<DanRabbit1> mac_v: just mark invalid for Humanity
<mac_v> ;)
<kwwii> mac_v: the icon is missing I think
<kwwii> iirc
<kwwii> or is it a missing .desktop file
<kwwii> anyway, mark as appropriate...I just like to blame you first :p
<kwwii> it is officialy weekend here so expect anything understandable from me for two days
<zniavre_> sudo apt-get install poedit
<zniavre_> ooops sorry
<darkmatter> dropbox exploded xD
<darkmatter> hiya coz_, I'm getting old
<coz_> darkmatter,  hey guy :)   you are getting old?
<darkmatter> coz_: lol... yeah. you shoulda seen me ripping my hair out yesterday. Installed a new burner, booted up, ATAPI error. tried inspecting/troubleshooting drives/connectors for an hour, only then did I notice I forgot to set the jumpers xD
<coz_> darkmatter,   oh dude  I have been there   I truly understand lol
<darkmatter> coz_: I mean, I only saw the jumpers 6 times after the initial error.. lol
<darkmatter> you think I would have noticed they were both on master
<coz_> :)
<darkmatter> coz_: we really need smarter bios. I mean, two drives fighting for control shouldn't give a generic error, it should give something like 'ERROR: You can not have two Masters on the same IDE channel', that would at least help prevent premature aging :P
<coz_> darkmatter,   which motherboard manufacturer is this?
<darkmatter> coz_: gigabyte
<darkmatter> its a slighty older model, but still
<coz_> darkmatter,  maybe some of the newer bios' do that particularly asus ....maybe
<darkmatter> *shrug*
 * kwwii wanders off to bed
 * darkmatter notices big whole in linux burning utilities
<darkmatter> coz_: I just noticed that *none* of the gui burning apps in linux (that I've seen/used)  support formatting dvd-ram, lol
#ubuntu-artwork 2010-11-29
<thorwil> 500 internal server error. burn in hell, wiki! even though the edit worked and nothing was lost, but still, to shock me like that
<thorwil> iainfarrell: good morning! any progress in tracking the ubuntu brainstorm person down?
<iainfarrell> thorwil: , good morning!
<iainfarrell> I have and he was on leave last week
<iainfarrell> so need to pick up with him this week
<thorwil> iainfarrell: i'd still like to have the address so i can ask about the logo myself
<iainfarrell> thorwil: this guy is just the technical contact on our side, no one's claiming ownership as such
 * thorwil is reminded of what his brother told him about working as part of ibm
<iainfarrell> thorwil: it might not be as hard to track someone down here but will do what I can :)
<iainfarrell> I am only in the office today and tomorrow
<iainfarrell> then back on Monday
<iainfarrell> will do what I can between now and then]
<thorwil> iainfarrell: ok, thanks :)
<thorwil> http://www.dropmocks.com/ is rather impressive
<thorwil> drag and drop a bunch of images and get a gallery
#ubuntu-artwork 2010-11-30
<zniavre_> good afternoon
<zniavre_> why tabs are so spaced  on ambiance theme ?
#ubuntu-artwork 2010-12-01
<djr013> Did Maverick intentionally get rid of the inactive window titlebar transparency effect?
<djr013> Just wondering, I noticed it was gone...
<coz_> djr013,  I know who is online right now here other than me
<coz_> many logged on though
<djr013> coz_: Huh? You mean nobody else is, or just that you know who is?
<coz_> djr013,  I dont know who is actually at their systems right now
<djr013> coz_: I'd be quite surprised if you did! :P
<coz_> djr013,  depending  on you time zone   most of these guys are in europe
<coz_> djr013,  I have been on the community art team since nearly day one  and still havent figured out the busy time here :)
<djr013> :)
<coz_> I do know a few are working on the compiz unity project at the moment
<j_baer> ivanka: Are you available?
<woutervddn> hey guys, I'm searching for a program to create animations.. I used adobe flash before but is there an equivalent for linux?
<leoquant> woutervddn, blender maybe?
<woutervddn> hmm.. I'm installing that right now.. but I've searched a bit and it seems blender is more like an alternative for illustrator
<leoquant> via google: KToon and Pencil
<woutervddn> hmm.. apperantly it wasn't a good idea to run blender in fullscreen and then try to change desktop -_-'
<woutervddn> leoquant.. I also found those but I was wondering which ones are good.. :)
<leoquant> woutervddn, sorry I have no exper. with them
<woutervddn> I'll guess I'll be trying some until I find a good one :p
<woutervddn> thx anyways guys..
<leoquant> indeed ã
<thorwil> woutervddn: i had no problem with running blender fullscreen and switching workspaces in the past. might be a regression, it's certainly not inherent to blender
<woutervddn> it might be because I'm using two screens and both with another resolution..
<woutervddn> anyways.. my system stalled.. but it's like a one time adventure.. once you know that's gonna happen you use the windowed mode..
<thorwil> woutervddn: blender is a 3d suite, might be compared to 3ds max, cinema 4d or maya (how well it fares in comparison depends on your needs or who you ask)
<thorwil> woutervddn: the situation regarding animation on linux is rather sad
<thorwil> woutervddn: have a look at synfig. closest we have no Flash's animation capabilities, though pretty rough ui
<thorwil> last time i looked, pencil and ktoon appeared to be rather dead
<woutervddn> thorwil I just saw a video on youtube about pencil.. I think it will be the closest to flash.. but will let you know
<woutervddn> ktoon looks nice but only when all artwork is done in gimp allready.
<woutervddn> I'd love to use something else then flash, but it's not easy.. there isn't another "protocol" that does what flash does..
<woutervddn> I mean, gif if far to narrow and java or C is to wide..
<thorwil> aside of the format, we have no authoring tool that is half as nice
<woutervddn> true.. for websites html5 is a bless but that still doesn't solve the problem for all other stuff..
<woutervddn> there must be someone out there with the knowledge and the time..
<thorwil> there was an attempt at an outright clone called flash4linux. project got stuck and died
<thorwil> so no, so far no one with the knowledge and time
<woutervddn> yes.. I heard about that.. but uira derived from the ashes.. although that wasn't a succes either..
<thorwil> meanwhile, synfig has a great concept, but stability issues and ui from hell
<woutervddn> just found a project called cooties "our goals is for cooties to kill flash"
<woutervddn> sound like the spirit -_-' xD
<woutervddn> all programs have massive downsides.. cooties can't handle color transitions
<woutervddn> and pencil doesn't know how to add text..
<woutervddn> :s
<woutervddn> I guess I'll go for synfig.. seems the most decent one..
<cozziemoto> woutervddn,  there is apng
<cozziemoto> woutervddn,   although the you have to make each frame by hand
<cozziemoto> and then animate it via apng
<coz_> or maybe openlazlo?
<woutervddn> I don't know them, will try them out..
<coz_> woutervddn,  I have never used openlazo  or tried to compile it
<coz_> woutervddn,  apng is actually a firefox plugin... that loads separate png image frrames you create,,,then atnimates them and saves them as a .apng file ..single file that will run with anything that can use it ,,,I have only used it to show ideas of animations  via firefox
<woutervddn> uhu..
<djr013> Anyone know if the inactive titlebar transparency effect was intentionally disabled in Maverick?
<vish> djr013: yea
<djr013> vish: It was?
<vish> djr013: it was too much, and nearly transparent.. hence reverted
<vish> djr013: its just a setting in metacity, you can set it yourself from the gonf
<vish> gconf*
<djr013> vish: Oh, I see, I'll check, thanks. :)
<vish> np..
<djr013> vish: The setting is under metacity even when running compiz? :/
<darkmatter> w00t! finally settled on a wallpaper! now I can start the gtk/windeco/icon work!
<vish> djr013: yup..
<vish> darkmatter: no, we wont ask for a sneak peek..! pls dont show us! ;)
<darkmatter> wasn't planning too :P just took a week to find one :P
<vish> thanks :)
<woutervddn> darkmatter it is hell to find a decent wallpaper out of all the junk.. so I made my own yesterday..
<djr013> vish: I don't see any settings which seem related. The closest I can find is compositing_manager...
<vish> djr013: just a sec
<darkmatter> woutervddn: :)
<djr013> darkmatter, woutervddn: Wikimedia Commons (IIRC) has some nice wallpaper-quality stuff. :)
<vish> djr013: it's /apps/gwd/metacity_theme_opacity    and so on..
<djr013> vish: Oh, I see. :) I didn't think it was under ../metacity/...that would be an odd place for compiz to read from.
<djr013> Anyone here using Lucid? What's your /apps/gwd/metacity_theme_opacity setting in gconf set to?
<vish> djr013: default is 1 , anything less than 1 will turn the border more transparent.. ;)
<djr013> vish: Well yeah I know. :) That's why I'm asking for anyone from Lucid to check, so I can see what it was before it was changed to 1 in Maverick.
<vish> djr013: it was always 1.. :)
<djr013> Oh.. :/
<djr013> Then...why was it semitransparent in the past?
<vish> djr013: never always, it was only during beta and then it was reverted..
<vish> dust theme used to change the setting..
<vish> nice oxymoron! 'never always' ;p
<djr013> Oh. :D I had no idea... Not sure how it got to mine, I wasn't using beta on this comp. But, perhaps due to ppa's or something.
<vish> djr013: or maybe it was reverted later.. i'm not sure of the exact update date..
#ubuntu-artwork 2010-12-02
<zniavre> good morning
<zniavre> there is a way to "blacklist" flash pluggin  in web-browser when using rgba module?
<zniavre> i managed to theme chrome-browser but flash (video) can't work > http://i.imgur.com/Zq8EU.png
<thorwil> http://launchpadlibrarian.net/59920583/ubuntu_com_vs_uds_ubuntu_com_zoom.png
<thorwil> vish: got a favorite in http://www.flickr.com/groups/uawt-1/pool/ ?
<vish> thorwil: i havent looked there..
<vish> thorwil: fav for?
<vish> oh the logo
<vish> heh, i saw flickr and thought wallpapers :p
<vish> thorwil: though this is a mod of CoF , i liked this one : http://wiki.ubuntu-br.org/TimeArtwork#head-cdff2bf16ee7854db58cf2519dc2b1c99af15a90
<vish> the white and orange
<thorwil> a whooping 2 wallpapers in the xubuntu pool, and both nail it. "it" being what the spec was meant to discourage
<thorwil> vish: if you prefer that one over everything in the pool, i shouldn't have asked you ;p
<vish> thorwil: well, everything is the pool is too noisy
<vish> too busy..
<vish> and very unrecognizable when they scale down
<thorwil> well, it's tough
<coz_> are these the bug squad logos?
<thorwil> coz_: that's about the most disastrous and utterly destroying critique you can deliver
<coz_> oh?
<coz_> thorwil,  I have no idea what you mean
<thorwil> coz_: those are proposals for the artwork team logo
<thorwil> coz_: they might be bad, but the presence of brushes, pencils and such and the absence of bugs should have made it clear enough
<coz_> thorwil,  still not clear... I just arrived and was wondering if that was what you guys were talking about
<thorwil> coz_: if you just asked without looking, i have to take that back
<coz_> ok
<coz_> i dont have scroll back for that last hour
<thorwil> the link http://www.flickr.com/groups/uawt-1/pool/ 20 minutes ago would have done
<coz_> thorwil,  ah!!   definitly not the bug logos :)
<thorwil> phew :)
<coz_> :)
<coz_> well now I can understand that these would difficult to make out scaled down ...yes?
<thorwil> yeah, but if you scale down all that much, only simple geometry survives, anyway
<thorwil> dinner, bbl
<christhecoolboy> Hello Islington :)
<thorwil> must-see video about logo creation: http://www.logodesignlove.com/logonom
<woutervddn> any of have an idea about how to make a youtube video work in fullscreen (when using 2 monitors)
<woutervddn> it allways shows the vid over 2 screens.. I hate it!
<woutervddn> @thorwil: that's one nice factory xD
<thorwil> yeah, i'm still in awe at those quality standards!
<Islington> hello christhecoolboy
<christhecoolboy> how are you? :_
<Islington> good working on xubuntu wall
<Islington> thorwil: I decided to attempt a nonabstract wall: http://imagebin.ca/img/nle4xv.png
<Islington> er wrong view: http://imagebin.ca/img/xEJ2Yf.png
<thorwil> Islington: wouldn't a bird in flight be more appropriate? (admittedly harder to get right)
<christhecoolboy> Islington... I got an Idea... Can I PM you?
<Islington> christhecoolboy: sure
<Islington> thorwil: harder but doable, I will try it
<thorwil> Islington: makes it easier to stay away from twitter bird artwork :)
<Islington> hah, didn't think about tat
<Islington> *that
<thorwil> a swallow would be a good fit for lubuntu. at least i guess the logo is supposed to be a swallow. i used to wonder if that is an alien spacecraft from babylon 5, or a messed up hand
<Islington> its that what that is? I always thought about some kind of mountain
<Islington> oh I see the bird now
<thorwil> heh
<thorwil> you know, i try to be constructive in such issues, but crap is crap :)
<Islington> lol
<Islington> anyways back to organic chem for me, finals week make me want to punch unicorns and rainbows.
#ubuntu-artwork 2010-12-03
<thorwil> ivanka: aww, no worries. especially as i totally failed to take care about the design center thing since uds :)
<thorwil> ivanka, vish: so what to do? extend the artwork team logo submission period until when?
<ivanka> thorwil: thanks - I am hoping to get the survey going today - have to put handwritten notes into electronic format and take it from there
<ivanka> thorwil: vish, I don't know
<vish> thorwil: first we decide what we want to be, and then we decide how long to extend it..
<thorwil> vish: i don't think "what do we want to be?" asked to the team will lead to any actionable result
<vish> thorwil: not asking the team.. i meant wait for the survey results and then..
<vish> thorwil: afaik, the survey is to give us a clue..
 * thorwil sends mail, suggesting new deadline begin of february, for another evaluation
<thorwil> regarding the BR thing, i'm pretty sure "logo oficial do Time de Arte Ubuntu BR" means official logo for the Ubuntu BR Artwork Team
<thorwil> reminds me of the sad fact that there is no communication between various regional efforts and us
<coz_> thorwil, simple enough logo
<thorwil> coz_: hmm?
<coz_> thorwil, the  ubuntu -br logo
<vish> thorwil: there is nothing BR about it, we can just use it as well... ;)
<vish> thorwil: but you have a wicked eye!, brush in the face! ;p
<coz_> good day all
<darkmatter> ello coz_
<coz_> darkmatter,  hey guy :)
<vish> thorwil: i think you just made powerful enemies ;p
<vish> you extended the logo deadline, now baer will write to you more ;p
<vish> enemy*
<thorwil> vish: powerful?
<vish> thorwil: and he'll also trivial edit wiki ;p
<thorwil> guess what my wiki options say
<vish> thorwil: i unsubscribed to the projects wiki..
<vish> i was earlier subscribed to it and then :s
<vish> thorwil: did you know about the plan for the final selection for the team logo ?
<vish> his three options?
<thorwil> vish: i saw them, but didn't know of any plan
<vish> thorwil: hmm, this is the first time i heard about them.. very odd making someone else pick your shirt ;p
<vish> your==team's
<vish> especially since the team is the artwork team o.0
<thorwil> vish: i just misunderstood you
<thorwil> he mentioned the options earlier in private mail
<vish> ah!
<vish> i dont see any rationale in three of his options
<vish> each has its flaws.. first two seem totally wrong, other's can suggest options, but i dont think the final decision must lie on them
<vish> s/lie/rely
<thorwil> vish: i disagree. first 2 would be sensible in case we could pick few candidates, where each would be acceptable to us
<vish> thorwil: thats what i meant.. they can suggest the final options from where team chooses the one they want
<thorwil> that's backwards from what i meant :)
<vish> hmm, oh! :D
<vish> thorwil: yea, and what's with the private mails.. he sent the mails for the logo to all my id's o.0
<vish> my old mac_v id.. not sure where he found that, maybe in breathe â¦
<thorwil> vish: frequency and content of his mails to me have been perfectly acceptable
<thorwil> vish: well, tell him which single address you prefer ;)
<vish> thorwil: yea, he has slowed down since last meeting..
<thorwil> this whole circus is so damn silly
<vish> exactly!!
<thorwil> vish: on lo-marketing, i saw a whole bunch of people who all misunderstood my proposed vision/mission statement to somehow be about audience-facing communication and went on to propose slogans
<vish> hehe! :)
<thorwil> guess how even more valuable it is to see someone who applies my strategies in a meaningful way, thereby implying that he does a bit more than to understand what i'm about
<thorwil> and then at the same time all these communication and sync hickups
<vish> they should have had a separate ML, rather than marketing , i guess thats where the confusion starts..
<thorwil> there is a design list
<thorwil> but in theory, what i proposed there belongs to marketing, too
<thorwil> just that the list seems to be full of people with a marketing->slogan shortcut in their head
<vish> :)
<thorwil> oh, and the definition of marketing that allows one guy to claim marketing would be about serving the customer/user ... delicious
<thorwil> let's define everything as broad as possible and turn the meaning around 180Â° for maximal clarity
<thorwil> more on topic, wonder what has to happen to see xubuntu wallpaper submissions that are not something blue on blue with a little blue
<vish> heh, yea.. i hadnt even checked out the guidelines, so i'm not even sure the color i modified was the right blue ;p
<hughbert> hello there anybody around?
<hughbert> i want to know what do you think of my logo for ubuntu ireland:
<hughbert> http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1463311
<hughbert> its looking like the lights are on but nobodys home....
<thorwil> hi
<thorwil> ugh, one thing i really don't like about the forum is having to be logged in to see attachments
<hughbert> sorry about that...
<hughbert> is there any good picture uplaoding site?
<thorwil> foopics.com
<thorwil> (for temporary things)
<hughbert> cool thanks
<hughbert> wait up a sec...
<hughbert> well i ment a minute...
<hughbert> http://www.foopics.com/show/0ed294a90e6e25e97f813b91b7a57b5e
<thorwil> thanks
<hughbert> no problem...
<thorwil> hughbert: the knot idea has huge potential
<thorwil> hughbert: i think you should leave the heads as circles, becomes too busy, otherwise
<hughbert> really i went to my local Lug and they were like its a bit too OTT
<hughbert> I dont agree though so....
<hughbert> you like it anyway....
<thorwil> well, i like the knots
<hughbert> alright will do....
<thorwil> hughbert: try to render the segments as rope. only
<thorwil> that is, not inside another shape
<hughbert> oo right...
<hughbert> overlayed
<hughbert> ??
<thorwil> no, just single shapes, solid fill
<hughbert> ooo i see....
<hughbert> could you maybe change it there for me because my wacom is'nt working....
<thorwil> hughbert: no
<hughbert> thats fine
<thorwil> hughbert: there's at least one long thread on the ubuntu forum regarding getting your wacom to work ...
<hughbert> ill be getting a new one anyway soon
<hughbert> i steped on it...
<hughbert> so its fecked...
<thorwil> hughbert: but later on, once you are sure about the geometry, the logo should be realized in svg, with inkscape
<thorwil> ah ok, the forum thread can't help with things you stepped on :)
<hughbert> ya that would look good alright i was thinking of doing that alright....
<hughbert> can i count on this being half official?
<thorwil> hughbert: this is not one bit official
<hughbert> ha ha thats grand...
<thorwil> hughbert: you will have to convince those in charge of the team that shall use it
<thorwil> hughbert: i don't belong to the canonical design team, but it would make no difference if i did, because that's how it's being handled
<thorwil> the teams decide themselves
<hughbert> i see...
<hughbert> i'd say that won't be too hard i got 802 views on ubuntu fourms...
<thorwil> the number of views don't mean a thing
<hughbert> thats grand... flip it anyway....
<hughbert> i know the fella doing up the new site so its grand...
<thorwil> sure, direct contact to those who do the work is key
<hughbert> ya am where are you from by the by?
<thorwil> germany
<hughbert> o really cool...
<thorwil> particularly now, when we got lots of snow
<thorwil> hughbert: you are from ireland?
<hughbert> any way i'd better be off im working on a poster for my local LUG
<hughbert> If you want to take a look its: www.clarelug.blogspot.com
<hughbert> ya born and bred...
<thorwil> hughbert: he, take it easy on me, i'm not familiar with that slang :)
<thorwil> hughbert: nm, now i get it
<hughbert> in the west coast....
<hughbert> ha ha ....
<hughbert> sorry about that...
<hughbert> ill try in and talk in good english...
<hughbert> ha ha im still laughing..
<hughbert> im on the floor...
<thorwil> hughbert: lol, no actually at i first failed to see it was the answer to my question. so a problem of context, not so much the expression :)
<thorwil> but glad to be entertaining :)
<hughbert> you shoud come over sometime....
<hughbert> ever been to ireland?
<thorwil> nope
<hughbert> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/County_Clare
<hughbert> you should come over during the spring or summer...
<hughbert> we have our own airport and everything....
<thorwil> maybe some day ...
<hughbert> your snowed in???
<hughbert> we have only 3 cm of snow....
<hughbert> but in the east they have 60cm its very bad over there....
<thorwil> only few cm here too, it's just very early. as always, it gets worse to the south
<hughbert> oo right....
<thorwil> it's enough to mess up the traffic
<hughbert> we're not used to it....
<hughbert> its the worst in generations....
<hughbert> anyway you can pop over anytime, your welcome to....
<thorwil> thanks :)
<hughbert> we might have a LUG meeting....
<hughbert> Stallman came to Clare back in 2001 had a big drinking session....
<hughbert> thanks for your help... good luck!!!
<thorwil> np :)
<hughbert> Gute Nacht!
<thorwil> hughbert: good night to you, too!
#ubuntu-artwork 2010-12-04
<MatthewDesigner> Hello everyone!
<thorwil> alpha or maybe beta testers wanted: https://code.launchpad.net/~t-w-/backtestground/backtestground
<vish> bzr branch lp:backtestground
<vish> grr!
<thorwil> grr?
<vish> i copy pasted in wrong window..
<thorwil> heh
<thorwil> i guess someday i will paste an interesting link, accidentally and people will wonder about wild boar riding midgets in rubber suits
<vish> someday.. one can only hope..  ;)
<thorwil> vish: i'd like to see how much sense you can make out of that branch on your own, but don't hesitate to ask questions
<vish> hmm, i was expecting the INSTALL file to actually be the installer ;p
<vish> and was wondering why README dint have install instructions..
<thorwil> oh. but it's in docs and INSTALL for info on how to install is convention (if not part of the README)
<vish> afaik or have seen, the install file usually installs and the read me has the install info
<thorwil> an install.sh in root, maybe
<vish> yea..
<vish> the .sh is usually hidden or not used, so it just looks too much the same.
<vish> * ".sh"
<vish> $ python setup.py build
<vish> Traceback (most recent call last):
<vish>   File "setup.py", line 3, in <module>
<vish>     from setuptools import setup
<vish> ImportError: No module named setuptools
<vish> thorwil: ^  doesnt seem to install
<vish> i have both python-imagining and python-argparse
<vish> oh !
<vish> thorwil: do i also need python-setuptools ?
<vish> or is it the  python3-setuptools ?
<thorwil> vish: python-setuptools
<thorwil> sorry, i just added a note to INSTALL (and a note to README to point to INSTALL)
<thorwil> after figuring out a few other things, i will look into making a deb
<vish> n$ python bgce.py -o ~/bg.png
<vish> usage: bgce.py [-h] [-v] [-o path/filename]
<vish>                screenshot_on_white screenshot_on_shadow-color
<vish> bgce.py: error: too few arguments
<vish> thorwil: ^
<vish> thats what i get..
<vish> not sure how to run it, btw, why does it need to install? cant we run it just from the folder?
<thorwil> vish: if setup.py worked, you should now have "bgce" and "sizes" in /usr/local/bin.
<vish> yea, setup worked
 * vish checks again..
<thorwil> vish: sure the scripts run from where they are
<thorwil> but that's not convenient in everyday use
<thorwil> vish: use the images in the test_images dir
<vish> thorwil: setup http://paste.ubuntu.com/539797/
<thorwil> vish: looks alright
<vish> but if i run the .py from ~/ it doesnt seem to pickup the executable..
<vish> oh wait!
<thorwil> vish: bgc tab-key should complete to bgce everywhere now
<vish> nope, false alarm..
<vish> it does, but it does not /run/
<vish> $ bgce
<vish> Traceback (most recent call last):
<vish>   File "/usr/local/bin/bgce", line 9, in <module>
<vish>     load_entry_point('Backtestground==1.0', 'console_scripts', 'bgce')()
<vish>   File "/usr/lib/python2.6/dist-packages/pkg_resources.py", line 305, in load_entry_point
<vish>     return get_distribution(dist).load_entry_point(group, name)
<vish>   File "/usr/lib/python2.6/dist-packages/pkg_resources.py", line 2244, in load_entry_point
<vish>     return ep.load()
<vish>   File "/usr/lib/python2.6/dist-packages/pkg_resources.py", line 1954, in load
<vish>     entry = __import__(self.module_name, globals(),globals(), ['__name__'])
<vish> ImportError: No module named bgce
<thorwil> vish: same here. now if i only knew what the heck changed ...
<vish> phew, well atleast i'm not totally dumb :D
<thorwil> vish: in the meantime, the help text formatting is a little odd, as required parameters appear in a second line
<thorwil> vish: bgce.py on_white.png on_black.png
<thorwil> (with appropriate  paths)
<vish> hmm..
<thorwil> result will be called context.png
<vish> thorwil: dint understand â¦ you want me to edit the bgce.py ?
<thorwil> vish: no.
<thorwil> cd path/to/bin
<thorwil> ./bgce ../test_images/on_white ../test_images/on_black.png
<vish> yea, i tried $ python bgce.py ~/on_white.png
<vish> usage: bgce.py [-h] [-v] [-o path/filename]
<vish>                screenshot_on_white screenshot_on_shadow-color
<vish> bgce.py: error: [Errno 2] No such file or directory: '/home/vishnoo/on_white.png'
<vish> argh..
<vish> 2am, not a good time for trying something new i guess ;p
<thorwil> well, it's easier to have the scripts and images in the same dir
<vish> hmm, k.. copying..
<vish> finally!
<vish> \o/ i got the context.png, but its just a copy..
<thorwil> vish: look at all 3 files with eog
<vish> thorwil: ok.. *now* i realize what the readme screenshot meant.. :)
<thorwil> :)
<vish>  the readme "screenshot" meant
<vish> thorwil: i was thinking it would take a screenshot..
<thorwil> vish: right, i have to rephrase that
<thorwil> vish: thanks!
<vish> np..
<thorwil> vish: the "sizes" tool is clear enough?
<vish> thorwil: yea, that's confusing too , when you say "Take.." it seems like it will take
<thorwil> i see, the short form of "take as argument" is no good
<thorwil> will use "expects as input", instead
<thorwil> good night!
#ubuntu-artwork 2010-12-05
<coz_> hey all
<thorwil> doctormo: i used some color coding in mockups, too. though, consider using black for the wireframes and blue for comments, as there's quite a tradition of doing so in illustration and printing
<thorwil> not to forget that black seems heavy and solid
<doctormo> thorwil: lots, how can I help you?
<thorwil> doctormo: i have 2 argparser using cli scripts to install, called bgce.py and sizes.py
<thorwil> and end up with 4 files in /usr/local/bin
<thorwil> doctormo: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/4359553/how-to-install-python-cli-scripts-with-setuptools-without-duplicates
<thorwil> the one answer is no solution, tried that twice already
<doctormo> thorwil: Can you pastebin your setup.py please/
<thorwil> doctormo: http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~t-w-/backtestground/backtestground/annotate/head%3A/setup.py
<doctormo> thorwil: there are a couple of things that don't look right
<thorwil> doctormo: i followed docs/examples as far as i could, but it's my first setup.py, so no surprise
<doctormo> I don't know why you should be using console_scripts, what does it do differently to scripts?
<doctormo> typically you would put the py files in /usr/share/package_name and then sh scripts which call them in /usr/bin
<doctormo> And what is in data_files? do you know?
<thorwil> doctormo: yes. templates to be installed to the ~/Templates folder (i first check that it exists)
<doctormo> thorwil: You can't install things to /home, it's generally not allowed and besides it'll normally install to /root because setup is running as root.
<thorwil> doctormo: all the entry_points examples i found so far use console_scripts
<thorwil> doctormo: well, setup.py install needs sudo to install to /usr/local/bin already, so what's the problem with home? that part of the scripts does work fine
<doctormo> It's not considered sane, I'm surprised it works.
<thorwil> i don't see an alternative to direct installation to Templates :/
<doctormo> We don't have a good system of installing templates.
<thorwil> not even with a .deb?
<doctormo> Not really, since you can't install things to /home
<thorwil> guess the Template folder is a dumb design, then
<doctormo> indeed
<thorwil> if that label in entry_points reads 'console_scripts' or 'scripts' makes no difference.
<thorwil> dinner, bbl
<doctormo> thorwil: Take out the entry point stuff and just stick with scripts
<kwwii> doctormo: templates should go in example-content, which is linked in every home dir
<kwwii> or?
<thorwil> kwwii: Examples and Templates are not related in any way, afaict
<thorwil> doctormo: ok, that works, thanks!
<thorwil> i guess the only thing i lose is windows and perhaps osx compatibility, but why bother
<doctormo> thorwil: True, depends if your targeting those and if you think someone else will come in and fill in that.
<doctormo> kwwii: We could do with a better system.
<thorwil> one with system-wide templates in /usr/local/share, perhaps
<thorwil> oh, and the filesytem should support i18n for filenames
<doctormo> thorwil: doesn't it do that already?
<thorwil> doctormo: afaik folders like "Documents" and "Music" have to be renamed if you switch language
<doctormo> thorwil: They don't have to be.
<doctormo> I'm very well versed in the XDG specification :-)
<doctormo> in ~/.config/xdg-dirs.dirs you'll see the mapping, it comes from /etc/xdg/user-dirs.defaults
<doctormo> There is a po file which says what they're translated into if you want.
<doctormo> And a service which is run on login to suggest renaming.
<doctormo> I actually have my xdg-dirs customised, because I like my music to be in ~/Audio/Music and my pictures to be ~/Photographs
<thorwil> doctormo: what i mean would be having a list of names for every file right on the filesystem level
<doctormo> I don't understand
<thorwil> doctormo: 'en', 'de', 'po_BR'  ... names per file
<thorwil> pt_BR, even
<doctormo> I'm sorry I still don't understand, could you explain more?
<thorwil> doctormo: currently a file has just one name. it should have the option to have names per language
<doctormo> Oh, that's fancy, I don't know any fs that does that.
<thorwil> that way, a "Documents" folder would stay "Documents", but a user with lang=german would see "Dokumente"
<doctormo> I see yes
<thorwil> bah, bdist_rpm but no bdist_deb
<kwwii> doctormo: sorry for responding late... I actually think example-content is a perfect place
<kwwii> as it doesn't copy the templates to everyones home dirs
<kwwii> on one system, I mean
<kwwii> and really, it is example content
<kwwii> usuable good example content
<doctormo> thorwil: you got to use the python deb template, easy as pie
<kwwii> doctormo: but anyway, the system could be better, I agree
<kwwii> getting good templates would be a good first step :-)
<thorwil> kwwii: my templates should appear in the "Create Document" menu. else, they could go wherever the user likes. most likely not Examples, seeing how anything else there is very different
<thorwil> kwwii: i'm talking about the first 2 in http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~t-w-/backtestground/backtestground/files/head%3A/templates/
<kwwii> thorwil: I was just trying to find a place in the home dir to link them to
<kwwii> honestly, it seems to me this stuff is example content
<kwwii> and can be linked as templates
<kwwii> everything else in example content can go :-)
<kwwii> I mean, the name alone describes what should be included
<kwwii> although I guess they need to end up in the templates dir
<kwwii> or such
<kwwii> has that issue been discussed yet?
<kwwii> templates is in the xd spec I think
<kwwii> xdg
<kwwii> so really there should be a package called templates or such which does the same thing as example-content
<kwwii> or?
<thorwil> kwwii: Templates is empty by default
<thorwil> gnome people had discussions about putting empty files of the most common types there, but thos in charge said it would be up to admins or users themselves to put stuff there
<kwwii> thorwil: that seems silly
<kwwii> I mean, for ubuntu that seems silly
<kwwii> I understand that gnome doesn't want to put stuff there by defailt
<kwwii> default
<kwwii> that makes senses
<kwwii> but ubuntu sould
<kwwii> shold
<kwwii> also, I can imagine that apps could include their own templates which would be installed in that dir
<thorwil> that's discouraged by those gnome people
<kwwii> it is something which has never worked in linux before because there were never good templates and too many differing file types which were not supported by enough apps
<thorwil> so it would be something that only be dealt with in ubuntu specific packages
<kwwii> thorwil: which gnome people did you talk to?
<kwwii> thorwil: I know quite a few personally, so maybe I could clear some stuff up
<thorwil> kwwii: i didn't, just followed the discussion and that was years ago
<thorwil> i don't recall the names
<kwwii> ahh, in that case I would say it is time to re-investigate the possibilities :-)
<doctormo> What are you after? a nautilus Create New template or something else?
<thorwil> doctormo: i think Ken is after at least having a few items in there on an ubuntu default install
<kwwii> I can't hurt to think of some way to a) include a set of default templates and link them properly and b) allow apps to install templates, probably as an extra package which the user has to select
<thorwil> anyway, i have a drawing.svg in there and that's damn convenient :)
<kwwii> doctormo: no, to give people a simple set of example files for a letter, a CV, a business letter, a couple presentations, etc...with instructions on the templates as to what is what
<kwwii> thorwil's stuff is very specific, so it doesn't need instructions
<kwwii> it would land in the insckape make new file menu thingy
<thorwil> kwwii: the Templates dir is for skeleton files, not so much examples
<kwwii> having one space for all of those things would be killer
<kwwii> right now apps put them where they want
<kwwii> thorwil: that is why I first wanted example content
<kwwii> but the files would be pretty bare-boned as we do not have the skills and people to write real help
<kwwii> we could probably get people from all nations to help make a template for a business letter in their language though
<thorwil> free software needs a skilled clone army
<kwwii> doctormo: does that confuse things or clear things up?
<kwwii> or am I confusing the conversation by butting in? :-)
<thorwil> well, it's nice that it's not me widening the scope, for once :)
<kwwii> lol
<thorwil> anyone in the mood for a testdrive? bzr branch lp:backtestground
<thorwil> best would be someone without python-setuptools installed
<thorwil> just pushed an improved svg template that supports batch export to 14 screen resolutions :D
<kwwii> thorwil: about to go to bed..I'll test it tomorrow
<thorwil> kwwii: ok, have nice dreams :)
<kwwii> thorwil: ebenso
<kwwii> thorwil: in the future, leave out the "have"
<thorwil> kwwii: ok, ty
<kwwii> night
 * kwwii away
<coz_> hey all
#ubuntu-artwork 2011-12-04
<sfera> hello
<sfera> i have a problem and maybe one of you guys could help me out. after upgrading the ubuntu distro of an older family member of mine, the old wallpapers were gone/purged. do you know where i can find that "animated wallpaper" displaying space images? i think it was introduced in 9.10
<sfera> maybe someone remembers or has it locally :)
<CasperN> its a folder in older ubuntu, /usr/share/backgrounds
<CasperN> named cosmos
<sfera> thank you
<CasperN> hang on and I make a zipfile
<sfera> it's such a pity that the "old" wallpapers are purged on upgrade...
<sfera> an there's no very obvoius way to get them back.
<CasperN> http://dl.dropbox.com/u/448984/Cosmos.zip
<sfera> thany you very much
<sfera> *thank
<sfera> got it
<CasperN> there is an xml script to toggle the pics, not sure how it works
<CasperN> but anyway, guess you figure it out
<sfera> i will. ;)
<sfera> the xml file is already in there, so i don't need to do anything except place it in /usr/share/backgrounds/
<CasperN> ok
<sfera> \o/
<sfera> ...and probably edit /usr/share/gnome-background-properties/ubuntu-wallpapers.xml :)
