#ubuntu-meeting 2004-12-11
(pitti/#ubuntu-meeting) so I copied the ascii file to http://people.ubuntu.com/~pitti/langpacks.txt
(smurfix_/#ubuntu-meeting) pitti: thx
<mdz> morning
(pitti/#ubuntu-meeting) Hi mdz 
<mdz> pitti: your agenda item was masked by a markup error, I didn't see it until I tried to edit the page
(pitti/#ubuntu-meeting) mdz: huh?
(pitti/#ubuntu-meeting) mdz: it was fine for me
<mdz> http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/TechnicalBoardAgenda
(smurfix_/#ubuntu-meeting) was OK here too
(smurfix_/#ubuntu-meeting) s/here/for me/
<mdz> elmo,fabbione,kamion,keybuk,lamont,mvo_,sabdfl
(fabb1one/#ubuntu-meeting) mdz: i am here
(fabb1one/#ubuntu-meeting) just a sec that the wartylog is desynced
<fabb1one> test
<fabb1one> ok much better
<Keybuk> quite finished? ;o)
<sabdfl> hi all
<Keybuk> btw, I'd just like to say, for the record, that Cadbury's are evil
<mdz> ok, we seem to have a quorum
<pitti> Keybuk: what's Cadbury?
<elmo> lol
<Keybuk> pitti: they make chocolate
<elmo> pitti: chocolate manufacturer
<sabdfl> pitti: it's a backup weapon to the jellybean
<mdz> the only predetermined agenda item is: language packs
* pitti understands :-)
<pitti> mdz: that was me, BTW
* Keybuk is going off to bomb Bourneville when this is over
<Keybuk> (and then feel ill)
<Keybuk> :p
<mdz> if I'm not mistaken, this is carried over from the last TB meeting :-)
<sabdfl> mdz: we had a long discussion during your break
<mdz> ...which I have only skimmed
<pitti> mdz: yes, I distilled the discussion to http://people.ubuntu.com/~pitti/langpacks.txt and to ubuntu-devel
<pitti> however, the discussion on the ml wasn't very active
<pitti> so I would like to talk about it here
<sabdfl> i have a tech question for pitti
<pitti> we don't need to agree about every single detail
* pitti listens
<sabdfl> if we set the default build process for packages so that english is installed by default by the package
<pitti> but we should agree on the general architecture
<pitti> sabdfl: this is the default, btw
<sabdfl> and had a mechanism so that a local build could install it's own translations for specific locally required languages, overriding the lang pack
<sabdfl> would this resolve the conflicts issue?
<sabdfl> largely
<pitti> sabdfl: you mean if you locally rebuild the debs from the source package?
<sabdfl> IOW i imagine someone building the package locally would automatically get (a) english and (b) the languages that their Ubuntu langpacks are installed for
<sabdfl> yes
<sabdfl> without having to rebuild the langpack
<pitti> it should be easy to confine the build to some languages, yes
<Keybuk> package would conflict with langpack in that situation, no?
<Kamion> isn't it quite important that local builds = our builds by default?
<pitti> this essentially means to delete all other languages from /usr/share/locale
<mdz> Kamion: yes
<fabbione> Kamion: yes
<sabdfl> Kamion: they would, in the sense that the deb would include english by default, as would ours
<pitti> but this would have similar drawbacks as F5
<Kamion> sabdfl: I mean in all senses, i.e. same list of files
<mdz> if we're going to do language packs, the language pack should become the central point for translation activity
<Kamion> that's really important for developers testing stuff
<pitti> I really thought over this issue
<pitti> IMHO putting the translations into proper debs leads to nothing but trouble
<sabdfl> agreed
<pitti> either our archive size or our mirrors explode
<pitti> and we become totally incompatible to the rest of the deb-world
<mdz> pitti: what do you mean by proper debs?
<mdz> e.g., language packs?
<mdz> I think there are certainly benefits
<pitti> mdz: putting the po files into a real deb (as in the F2 options)
<Kamion> pitti: nod - the approach of grabbing stuff straight to /usr/share/locale/ is looking kind of appealing right now, considering all the alternatives
<pitti> mdz: vs. managing the po files (and other stuff) aside from debs
<mdz> it allows us to safely update translations without touching the package itself
<sabdfl> F2-3:  we should expect upwards of 200-500 languages within a year
<pitti> I still think that F4 is the sanest variant
<smurfix_> pitti: that kills every otion but F4 (and F6 ;-) 
<pitti> with some ideas from F3-2
<pitti> i. e. download new translations to e. g. /var/cache/locale
<mdz> pitti: did you make some estimates for disk space requirements?
<sabdfl> Kamion: you mean, taking /usr/share/local/ out of dpkg control, and managing it separately?
<pitti> and provide this as an alternative gettext root
<Kamion> sabdfl: with respect I find that hard to believe, considering 10+ years of free software translation work that have produced maybe 20 languages with plausible coverage
<mdz> 200-500 is quite a lot more than any package we currently ship
<pitti> mdz: the user would only download the languages and translations that he wants
<sabdfl> Kamion, mdz: these are clear goals of ubuntu/rosetta
<pitti> mdz: so disk space is minimal, without any deb overhead
<Kamion> sabdfl: I know, I'm just saying I find it hard to believe.
<pitti> mdz: and overhead of unwanted translations
<Mithrandir> pitti: why would F2 include conflicts?  Replaces should be enough.
<mdz> sabdfl: yes, I'm saying that we need data to know what that would really look like in terms of resources
<sabdfl> fair nuff, just so you understand that's why i'm pushing this so hard now
<pitti> Mithrandir: I think it's a bad idea to have a language pack replace a complete application deb
<Mithrandir> pitti: Replaces: doesn't mean that.
<pitti> sabdfl: I do _not_ propose to change anything in /usr/share/locale, btw
<sabdfl> what about this?
<Kamion> sabdfl: don't think /usr/share/locale/ should be taken out of dpkg's control; pitti's F4 suggests somewhere in /var
<pitti> sabdfl: I only want to have additional translatiosn in /var/cache/locale
<sabdfl> could we update the ubuntu gettext to look in *two* locations? and take the newer?
<pitti> Kamion: yes
<sabdfl> language packas would go in /usr/share/langpack/
<pitti> sabdfl: this should be easy for the majority of packages
<mdz> gnome-panel has 70 locales totalling 4.2M
<pitti> sabdfl: however, we need to manually fix packages which link gettext statically
* Mithrandir thinks /usr/local/share/locale would be the right place, but that's a detail.
<Kamion> avoiding any location that is currently used produces the huge benefit that we do not become instantly incompatible with everyone
<sabdfl> then the local build could go into a diff location
<Kamion> Mithrandir: it's still distro-managed though
<smurfix_> pitti: that makes sense anyway
<pitti> Mithrandir: I would favor /var; /usr might be r/o
<sabdfl> the main thing being that the langpack would not put files anywhere a locally built deb would expect to be able to do
<pitti> My idea is to have a language pack which controls the downloading and installation
<Mithrandir> pitti: depends on where the langpacks comes from -- if they are .debs, then /usr is r/o => you lose.
<mdz> I like pitti's idea of treating the two pools of translations separately
<pitti> Mithrandir: as I said, I don't think it's a good idea to put updated translations in deb
<mdz> but it highlights a question about the overall process
<Mithrandir> pitti: why not?
<mdz> is our goal that these translations be passed upstream?
<sabdfl> mdz: yes, through rosetta
<pitti> Mithrandir: I explained in detail in my list
<Mithrandir> pitti: how else are you going to make sure that cruft is removed?
<mdz> if so, upstream inherits a lot of these problems
<pitti> Mithrandir: it's nothing but trouble
<pitti> Mithrandir: this must be handled by the download manager (i. e. the language pack)
<mdz> their source tarball grows, their default install size grows for source-based installs and for other packagers as well
<Kamion> mdz: upstream don't really, Debian does though
<smurfix_> mithrandir: either you have LOTS of debs or your update is a 99% no-op
<pitti> Mithrandir: it shouldn't be too hard to sort out cruft in gettext files
<Kamion> most upstreams don't seem to care about source tarball size :)
<smurfix_> mithrandir: both is not nice
<sabdfl> btw: bazaar 1.0 release in progress now
<Mithrandir> pitti: I'm talking about cruft as in "handling languages which are no longer on the system".  You would be reinventing dpkg.
<Kamion> how about /usr/share/locale/extra/ or something?
<Mithrandir> Kamion: do people care about installed-size?
<pitti> Mithrandir: maybe, but using dpkg is even worse...
<Kamion> would be nice to keep within FHS directories
<pitti> Mithrandir: deleting a language pack can just remove /var/cache/locale/<lang>
<smurfix_> mithrandir: it's a somewhat different problem space
<pitti> Mithrandir: s/delete/purge/
<Kamion> or at least get this standardised somehow, since it sounds as if everyone will run into death-by-language-bloat soon
<mdz> Mithrandir: if installed-size were not an issue, I think language packs would be a non-issue as well
<mdz> well, almost
<pitti> mdz: there are also troubles with mirrors and pacakge rebuilds
<mdz> there would still be the issue of .deb size
<pitti> mdz: installed-size of language packs is the least evil point
<Mithrandir> mdz: I'm asking whether it's really an issue or whether we just have a bunch of whiners who can be ignored.  (To be harsh)
<mdz> Mithrandir: any whiners are hypothetical at this stage
<Kamion> Mithrandir: CD size is pretty hard and fast
<mdz> we're extrapolating what would happen if the number of translations exploded
<smurfix_> kamion: teaching dpkg to basically ignore some directories should be reasonably simple
<mdz> smurfix: that would only address installed-size, and not .deb size
<Kamion> smurfix_: that approach is pretty fragile and hard to reconfigure later though
<Kamion> and, as mdz said
<pitti> smurfix: why you want to do that?
<sabdfl> easy, Mithrandir
<Kamion> smurfix_: if somebody says "please can I have French translations now", you have to reinstall everything
<Mithrandir> sabdfl: I didn't intend to stomp on any toes -- I was wondering if we were discussing a real problem or not. :)
<mdz> we are
<mdz> though we are trying to discuss it before we actually have it
<pitti> Can we at least agree to drop the F2 options?
<sabdfl> in terms of where i would like ubuntu to be in two years time, which is much more widely translated than rhat, suse or debian, yes this will be a real issue
<pitti> i. e. extract translations during build into separate debs?
<smurfix_> kamion: assuming that the files can't be downloaded from rosetta-or-whatever
<sabdfl> fine by me
<mdz> wait
<mdz> F2 are the only options which address the problem of .deb size
<mdz> oh, also F5
<sabdfl> our build process will have to be different
<pitti> mdz: ?
<Mithrandir> mdz: F5 means the shipped debs are different from what you get from apt-get -b source $package, though.
<sabdfl> in that we will not include the translations in a default .deb build
<mdz> Mithrandir: yes
<mdz> F5 has big problems in terms of package management
<mdz> but it does address the problem of .deb size
<Mithrandir> pitti: F3, F4 doesn't shave any size off the shipped debs.
<pitti> mdz: the point is that _anything_ using debs created by us makes troble
<elmo> F4 could be combined with a stripping
<Mithrandir> pitti: which we want to do, in order not to hit the 650MB limit.
<mdz> we could do a slight modification of F5 which results in having the same .debs in the archive and on the CD
<elmo> F4+strip down to English +whatever we can fit is by far the most sane option IMHO
<pitti> Mithrandir: yes, but _we_ have to create debs regularly
<mdz> local builds break
<pitti> Mithrandir: as opposed to F4, when the _user_ decices when to download what
<Kamion> sabdfl: I really think patching the source packages is the only correct way to modify the build process
<sabdfl> Kamion: yes, i expect that
<pitti> Mithrandir: this simplifies both building and downloading a lot
<Mithrandir> Kamion: I agree with you on that.
<Kamion> sabdfl: ok, good, alleviates my major concern :)
<mdz> sabdfl: based on our experience so far with merges, that would be a prohibitively large workload for our team
<elmo> mdz: okay, F4 +strip in binary and source
<pitti> Kamion: but I think if we can manage without patching source packages at all, this would be even better
<mdz> patching every source package is not an option for us
<smurfix_> elmo: why both binary and source? Agreeing on either makes more sense imho
<mdz> elmo: hmm
<Kamion> mdz: the fact that a source package specifies what goes into its binary packages is an invariant; breaking that just for scheduling reasons is so wrong
<elmo> mdz: it's not every source, nly what's on the CD
<elmo> we can't not patch what's on the CD if you want local builds to work, AFAICS
<Kamion> if we're going to modify the build process then that change must be in Ubuntu
<Kamion> (i.e. not buildds)
<mdz> elmo: I think I like that very much
<elmo> smurfix: eh?  the binary have to be modified to get the space down, the source has to be modified, if you want a local rebuild to procue an installable .deb
<smurfix_> I'd prefer mangling the binaries when they arrive from the autobuilder.
<mdz> (F4 + stripping)
<Kamion> smurfix_: so wrong, so wrong
<mdz> that avoids the conflict issues with local builds
<pitti> Am I right that stripping and F4 are actually completely orthogonal?
<Kamion> think I agree with elmo here
<pitti> so we can discuss that independently?
<Mithrandir> mdz: and then leaving /var/cache/locales non-dpkg-managed?
<mdz> pitti: yes
<mdz> good plan
<mdz> we can decide separately how to best remove translations from .debs, and how to provide the translations separately
<smurfix_> elmo: why would a local rebuild create a conflict?
<mdz> the former is the difficult bit
<Keybuk> stripping how?
<mvo_> I think the later is tricky too :)
<Kamion> mdz: adding dh_striplocales (say) to debian/rules wouldn't be that bad, would it?
<Kamion> if it's a one-liner ...
<Keybuk> at buildd-time, or in the source package?
<elmo> smurfix: oh, okay, it wouldn't necessarily, but it wouldn create a different .deb, and there's a lot to be said for idempotency of builds
<Mithrandir> Kamion: aka rm -rf debian/$packagename/usr/share/locale ? :)
<sabdfl> it should be a one-time one-liner
<pitti> mdz: stripping binary debs is easy, but stipping source packages? We have to change every orig.tar.gz...
<Kamion> pitti: and then various upstream projects will accuse us of forking
<pitti> Kamion: how would that help to reduce the source package size?
<Kamion> (c.f. openssh)
<Keybuk> Kamion: the bit where it would go doesn't tend to change hugely -- though it'd trip on a major change to debian/rules and need manually fixing
<Kamion> Keybuk: yeah, but it should be mostly automergeable
<Keybuk> 9/10 times
<Keybuk> maybe 99/100 too
<sabdfl> pitti: source package size is not the issue
<pitti> elmo: do you actuallly mean "strip the source package" or "strip during building the debs from the source package"?
<Kamion> sabdfl: source CDs are a reality, various people want them
<elmo> pitti: latter
<pitti> sabdfl: ah, okay. I misunderstood
<pitti> elmo: okay, that's easier
<mdz> Keybuk: is it feasible to detect the case where we _only_ made this change, and fast-track it?
<elmo> kamion: point them at > 650Mb ISOs, what do we care?
<sabdfl> Kamion: they can be multi-cd sets
<Keybuk> mdz: yah
<sabdfl> dvd
<Kamion> sabdfl: they're already 3 CDs
<Kamion> sabdfl: turning them into 30 seems a bit non-trivial
<sabdfl> true :-)
<Kamion> (3 CDs for hoary as it stands)
<elmo> Kamion: don't you like a challenge??
<Kamion> elmo: depends how fast you want auckland's disk space used up
<mdz> last I heard, we weren't hurting for disk space
<Keybuk> mdz: wish we were based on darcs rather than arch now though :p  could have a "add dh_striplocales before dh_builddeb" change token :p
<sabdfl> ok, girls, focus ;-)
<Kamion> mdz: we will be if daily CD builds multiply by ten in size
<mdz> Kamion: I don't think we quite need _daily_ source CDs
<Kamion> mdz: we already have them, 'cos building CDs daily is about the only sane way to make sure they keep working
<pitti> before we discuss the details, is there anybody who thinks that strip+separate download is _not_ the solution?
<sabdfl> i don't think we need to keep them around though
<mdz> Kamion: if it's only as a test, we can throw away the result if the space become sa problem
<mdz> what sabdfl  said
<Kamion> mdz: true
<Mithrandir> pitti: I wish they are handled by dpkg, but it seems people disagree with that, so.
<mdz> so, considering that we must remove translations from .debs in order to maintain the One True CD, I think we only have two options for the "remove translations from .debs" piece
<mdz> (source or binary)
<pitti> Mithrandir: if you find a way to sanely handle translations in deb, tell it to us :-)
<sabdfl> +1 source
<mdz> source is more correct in every way from a pure technical perspective
<pitti> Mithrandir: I would prefer proper debs from a cosmetic viewpoint too
<pitti> mdz: binary is easier, but source cleaner
<Kamion> source => change source package, binary => adjust binary package after build?
<mdz> Kamion: correct
<Mithrandir> pitti: they are just a bunch of files.  Wrap them up in a deb; make a daily deb of all the files for a language if you so desire.
<Keybuk> source++
<Kamion> definitely +1 source inasmuch as I don't get a TB vote
<Keybuk> Mithrandir: "Dear Mirrors, hello, here's SOME DEB"
<pitti> Mithrandir: either the mirrors or the number of debs would explode
<mdz> however, source thrusts us into a situation of having modified several times as many packages as we currently do
<smurfix_> hmm, if source, how do the stripped-off translations end up where people can download them?
<mdz> so it is dependent on a greater level of merge automation
<Mithrandir> Keybuk: one per language; the biggest language on my system is french, that is about 8MB, compresses down to about 2.7MB.
<Keybuk> mdz: from 233 to "all of them" ?
<pitti> mdz: we can modify debhelper to do it automatically
<pitti> smurfix: but them into rosetta, I think
<mdz> some have claimed that we would only modify the packages on the CD
<Keybuk> Mithrandir: 200 languages, every day, half a gigabyte to each mirror each day
<mdz> which I think would be about 3x as many packages as we currently modify
<Mithrandir> Keybuk: only build if they have changed that day, then.
<Kamion> I think modifying dh_builddeb or something around that level in Ubuntu might be just about acceptable
<Mithrandir> Keybuk: I doubt we'll have changes to each language each day.
<Kamion> although it's a bit worrying
<Keybuk> Mithrandir: we upload source every day, leading to a language-pack change every day, for every language
<mdz> Kamion: except for non-debhelper packages
<mdz> Kamion: do you feel the same way about modifying dpkg-deb? ;-)
<Kamion> mdz: yeah, pretty trivial number though
<Kamion> mdz: I feel deep abhorrence for that idea; layering violation
<Mithrandir> Keybuk: I thought translations were to be handled completely in rosetta?
<mdz> Kamion: I agree, fwiw
<pitti> Mithrandir: but you will have a daily change in at least one package, which would trigger a rebuild of the whole langpack
<Kamion> debhelper is allowed to know about details of Debian policy as regards package layout; dpkg-deb is just an archiver
* Keybuk tightens the chastity belt on dpkg-deb, just in case mdz gets any more funny ideas :p
<Mithrandir> pitti: uhm, why would that be?
<Kamion> so s/Debian/Ubuntu/ and it looks barely tolerable
<Kamion> the problem is that that would break rebuilds of Debian packages
<Kamion> which would be a bad thing
<elmo> WRT debhelper, why don't we just declare it build-essential for us, then we can dh_strip_locale to any package even if it doesn't use debhelper?
<pitti> Mithrandir: if you have one deb per language, it just is like this
<mdz> Kamion: how so?
<mdz> I think all source-based solutions share that problem
<pitti> Mithrandir: if you have one deb per language per package, the number of debs explodes
<Kamion> mdz: no they don't, modifying our source packages doesn't
<Kamion> i.e. our source packages say what we want them to do
<mdz> Kamion: the source package modification doesn't make it into Debian
<mdz> you said rebuilds of Debian packages
<pitti> mdz: I wouldn't change dpkg-deb, only debhelper
<Kamion> mdz: uh-huh, but people rebuild Debian packages on Ubuntu
<Mithrandir> pitti: I'm talking about one deb per language.  And if we do get 200 languages, well, then we have half a gig extra data to push.
<Kamion> mdz: e.g. backports
<elmo> Mithrandir: dude, please read the logs for the last meeting, we went over this TO DEATH
<Kamion> if some maintainer script in a Debian package does stuff to /usr/share/locale (and I believe some of them do), there'd be hell to pay
<Keybuk> yeah, I think some people would panic if I uploaded dpkg with all the translations stripped out
<pitti> Mithrandir: you have to push half a gig for _every_ language every day
<Mithrandir> elmo: ok
<Keybuk> I vote for dh_striplocales
<Keybuk> or dh_stripmessages
<pitti> Mithrandir: right now my /usr/share/locale is about 200 MB, but that will increase 
<Mithrandir> pitti: /query?
<Kamion> Keybuk++
<mdz> ok
<pitti> Mithrandir: ?
<mdz> so the broad solution of "modify the source package" seems to be favoured
<smurfix_> kamion:not if we modify gettext and put the rosetta translations somewhere else
<mdz> within that solution, we have some choices
<mdz> - modify debian/rules
<mdz> - modify a debhelper tool (and, if debhelper is not used by the package, debian/rules also)
<mdz> - others?
<pitti> mdz: + modify rules
<Kamion> - add a debhelper tool to simplify the modification of debian/rules
<fabbione> - something that is absolutely shared by every package?
<pitti> mdz: least surprise
<mdz> Kamion: let's consider the debian/rules option under the assumption that we'll make the change trivial
<mdz> by whatever means
<mdz> fabbione: the only thing that falls into that category is dpkg-deb, and that's been declared evil
<fabbione> mdz: aren't we? ;)
<mdz> modifying debian/rules is going to mean adding a build-dependency as well
<mdz> in order to guarantee a consistent result
<Keybuk> mdz: or modifying build-essential
* Kamion could live without the build-dep for the purposes of expediency ...
<mdz> hmm, even to guarantee that it builds
<mdz> modifying debhelper lets us forego the build-dep
<Kamion> upload debhelper, wait for elmo/lamont to install it in all chroots, upload everything else
<mdz> if it's built with a debhelper that doesn't contain the change, they just don't get a stripped package
<elmo> modify build-essential ..
<Kamion> if we add a new debhelper program then the build will fail if it's missing
<Kamion> which is good enough
<mdz> hmmm
<mdz> and then the user is left scratching their head over why the package doesn't build
<fabbione> lamont will kill somebody just the amount of mails he will get :-)
<elmo> we need to ensure that if a user does 'apt-get build-dep gnupg', and tries to build ubuntu's source, it'll work
<Kamion> mdz: hoary'll ship with this modified debhelper presumably
<elmo> the only way to guarantee that is to modify our build-essential
<mdz> we'd break building Ubuntu debs on Debian, unless our debhelper change goes upstream
<Kamion> we could even ask joeyh to include the tool in mainstream debhelper
<elmo> we could (haha) || true it, or enclose it in a if [ -e ... ]  type test
<mdz> I think he'd accept the dh_striplocales variety
<Kamion> mdz: we've already broken building a lot of Ubuntu .debs on Debian mind you
<pitti> Kamion: essentially it would just throw away any po files, right?
<mdz> perhaps not the dh_builddeb variety
<Kamion> mdz: plenty of them require Ubuntu-specific build-deps
<mdz> Kamion: really?
<Kamion> I think dh_striplocales is more correct anyway
<Kamion> mdz: sure, take GNOME
<mdz> I thought there were quite few of those
<Kamion> mdz: or our d-i
<mdz> d-i, sure
<mdz> Keybuk: didn't you have some numbers on how many packages don't use debhelper in warty/main?
<Kamion> might be worth ignoring all packages without translations
<haggai> I think you should try to find a solution that is upstreamable so that co-operative Debian maintainers can add the tool call to their source to reduce the debian->ubuntu diff
<mdz> 745/1022 I it looks like
<mdz> Kamion: I think the plan is to translate those, too :-)
<Keybuk> mdz: yeah, it came down about 30 don't
<sabdfl> we have a hard limit at this stage on those which don't use gettext at all
<Kamion> mdz: how about the ones without strings? :)
<mdz> 745/1022 have a build-dep on debhelper
<elmo> wow, that's less than I expected
<Keybuk> mdz: build-dep-indep too
<sabdfl> ok, i think we have an emergin consensus
<mdz> grep-dctrl -FBuild-Depends,Build-Depends-Indep -nsPackage debhelper
<mdz> 745
<Keybuk> mdz: grep-dctrl in hoary is broken
<mdz> oh, sweet
<Keybuk> grep-dctrl -s Package -FBuild-Depends,Build-Depends-Indep
<Keybuk> debhelper /var/lib/apt/lists/archive.ubuntu.com_ubuntu_dists_hoary_main_source_Sources
<Keybuk> | wc -l
<Keybuk> 952
<Keybuk> Actually it catches over 90%, and of the remaining 98 packages only 28
<Keybuk> contain translations anyway (using the "does it depend on gettext or
<Keybuk> po-debconf" test).
<pitti> sabdfl: I think so too, since the guys are already talking about specific details
<Keybuk> -- 
<pitti> sabdfl: but I think the general strategy works and is the sanest one
<mdz> given some magic which saves us from the crushing merge workload, the preferred solution for stripping locales is a dh_striplocales one
<pitti> agreed
<sabdfl> ok, next!
<mdz> can we really take that for granted at this stage?
<mdz> language packs are a hoary goal
<mdz> this level of divergence almost requires that we can put most of these merges on full automatic mode
<mdz> including the upload
<sabdfl> mdz: let's evaluate that after the first week of Mataro Sessions
<sabdfl> we'll have a handle on hct at that point
<Keybuk> hct doesn't help any more than mom
<Keybuk> a little less, in fact, because it requires tla/baz to play nice
<elmo> it's worth noting, that we're not running out of space yet either, so they may be a goal but they're not a 100% we can't ship without this
<sabdfl> yes
<mdz> elmo: however, it is a high priority item on Mark's hoary list
<Keybuk> mom works by breaking apart, mutating and driving patch itself
<mdz> which is fairly close to the same semantics
<Keybuk> we don't get that power with arch
<Kamion> (we have 55MB free on the powerpc CD, which is tightest)
<mdz> Kamion: and we need to get a ppc64 kernel image onto it :-/
<mdz> Keybuk: yet :-P
<Kamion> mdz: should be OK ...
<mdz> that'll eat about 15M
<mdz> guestimating from the powerpc one
<Kamion> mdz: depends which of powerpc/power3/power4 we need
<Kamion> (can we bounty benh to fix the MMU crap that means we need those three? :-/)
<elmo> can't we pay/beg/bribe/hold hostage someone to get rid of the stupid sub-arch split... doh
<mdz> ok, so regarding stripping locales, we're fairly settled on dh_striplocales, on the assumption that Keybuk can provide the level of support we need for the merges
<pitti> sabdfl: is there actually a "next" item on the list?
<mdz> Kamion: let's talk about that a bit later
<mdz> Kamion: doesn't sound unreasonable at first hearing
<mdz> pitti: yes
<mdz> the second half is the approach for providing the translations in separate .debs
<mdz> it sounds like we were moving in the following direction there:
<mdz> - buildds collect the translations via dh_striplocales and drop them into a pool
<mdz> - some automated process runs periodically and builds .debs from the pool
<elmo> debs are crack for this
<mdz> - the .debs contain translations in some directory which is not /usr/share/locale
<mdz> oh?  was that decided at the last meeting?
<elmo> I dunno, I'm just saying what I think
<mdz> ok, s/\.debs/language packs/ for now
<pitti> mdz: My idea is to have language-support-XX manage the download, install, and housekeeping
<pitti> mdz: but not stuffing the po files into a deb itself
<mvo_> I think the problems reamins the same whatever format we use
<pitti> a reasonable compromise would be to build a deb on the fly on the user's machine
<mdz> pitti: I think that introduces much more complexity than we want
<pitti> mdz: but if we push debs, we have all these problems
<mvo_> if we don't use deb we need to have package manager like functionality in a language-pack-get tool
<pitti> mdz: assembling debs on the fly on user's hosts seems much more sane then
<Mithrandir> pitti: I'm not too comfortable with that -- l-s-xx needs to be able to acquire, unpack, record what's installed and uninstall the files later.
<mdz> pitti: I think that has the same problems
<pitti> mvo_: but only downloading, copying and cleaning 
<mdz> there is a lot of value in having a language pack blob which actually contains the translations
<pitti> Mithrandir: why record?
<mdz> which can be placed on the CD, passed around by the user, etc.
<Mithrandir> pitti: it needs to know what it has installed so it knows what it should update.
<pitti> mdz: but the whole point of all this is to avoid debs in the first place
<pitti> at least debs we provide on our mirrors
<Mithrandir> elmo: you think .deb files are insane because of the mirror load?
<mdz> it is?
<Mithrandir> elmo: or anything else too?
<elmo> Mithrandir: Packages files are useless for them and too large
<elmo> and yes, I don't desperately want them in the pool proper
<pitti> Mithrandir: not only because of the mirror load, also because of the download redundancy
<pitti> The user should be able to download only the translations for packages he actually uses
<mdz> elmo: don't desperately want, or desperately don't want?
<haggai> could new functionality for registering conffiles etc with dpkg (Keybuk?) be used to register new translations with the dpkg database?
<mdz> pitti: what it sounds like you're describing is a .deb which can't be installed without access to <someplace>.ubuntu.com
<pitti> mdz: ?
<mvo_> when will he download them? will he need to do a apt-get upgrade and a lang-pack upgrade?
<mdz> pitti: <pitti> mdz: My idea is to have language-support-XX manage the download, install, and housekeeping
<pitti> mdz: l-s-XX would download the translations, create a deb and isntall it
<mdz> pitti: correct
<Mithrandir> mvo_: think install from cd, for instance.
<pitti> mdz: you need access to Rosetta, right
<elmo> mdz: depends what format the debs are, one per source or one per lang?
<mdz> that means that installing l-s-XX would require that the target system be able to talk to <someplace>.ubuntu.com
<elmo> mdz: the latter can  be over my dead or P45-ed body
<pitti> mdz: but you need that anyway to get _any_ update
<mdz> which, in a wide variety of environments, just won't be true
<Keybuk> haggai: doesn't work, conffiles still need a replaces:/--force-overwrite
<pitti> mdz: building the deb can happen on the client
<smurfix_> mithrandir: so the files are on CD instead of being downloaded
<elmo> mdz: the former.. I'm pretty unhappy about too, but I'd need to look at proper stats to be sure
<mdz> pitti: that isn't true, users have lots of ways of moving around .deb files
<mdz> pitti: the user needs to be able to insert a CD and obtain a language pack that way
<pitti> mdz: they can build the deb on a place with net access
<haggai> Keybuk: I didn't mean that.  I meant, the ability to register a new file with the language-support deb
<pitti> mdz: they can as well just copy the po tree to their computer (with the help of l-s-xx)
<mdz> pitti: this defeats the purpose of providing a plug-and-play language pack
<mdz> what is the problem that we would hope to solve with such a solution?
<pitti> mdz: I still don't understand the problem
<mdz> large downloads for people tracking the development branch?
<pitti> mdz: where the deb is built, or who does it makes no difference
<mdz> pitti: the problem is that it's essentially an installer .deb, and installer .debs are inherently problematic
<pitti> mdz: we can put it onto a CD as well
<sabdfl> we can accept a certain lag during the freeze
<Mithrandir> mdz: large downloads for people who are running stable but want updated translations, I think.
<sabdfl> so, say, langpacks are updated weekly rather than daily
<mdz> sabdfl: right
<mvo_> sabdfl: sounds good too me
<sabdfl> i think elmo is right that there are benefits to avoiding the pool altogether for this
<mdz> and we can provide a separate repository with daily updated language packs for those who really want them
<pitti> guys, it is just insane to publish translation debs in regular intervals
<smurfix_> why do we need .debs anyway?
<sabdfl> as is mithrandir in that it's a small step towards reinventing dpkg :-)
<mdz> if the problem is that the .deb is too large, we break it up
<Mithrandir> .. you know, dpkg started out as a perl script.  We could reinvent it in python.
<sabdfl> but... fundamentally, a langmgr on an ubuntu desktop needs to keep track of the languages that desktop needs, and sync in the data
<pitti> let the user choose which translations he want, at which intervals and give him an easy way to update his system with a "pull" strategy
* Mithrandir hides.
<sabdfl> it might even use rsync!
<Kamion> Mithrandir: actually it was a shell script before that ...
<Kamion> (IIRC)
<mdz> sabdfl: why does it need to do that?
<Keybuk> you could always use the deb + delta idea ...
<pitti> mdz: what do you mean by installer deb?
<mdz> sabdfl: the user selects their languages, and from that point forward it's a simple upgrade
<mvo_> Keybuk: +1
<mdz> pitti: a .deb which doesn't contain the data that it is meant to provide, but instead downloads it over the network (or requires that the user do so)
<pitti> mdz: with per-package debs or per-language?
<mdz> Keybuk: not for hoary we can't
<sabdfl> mdz: you mean, if we have an ubuntu-xx langpack in the pool? elmo hates that idea, and he's bigger than me, and i happen to agree with him
<pitti> mdz: you can also install readymade translation debs
<mdz> sabdfl: I'm going to go out on a limb and ask him to justify his hatred :-P
<mdz> sabdfl: you, too, if you agree
<pitti> mdz: it should be _possible_ to assemble them on the fly, not required
<sabdfl> the langpack debs will drive the mirrors crazy
<sabdfl> we can publish the translations as an rsyncable tree
<Mithrandir> sabdfl: if they're only updated when they need to, or weekly or something as well?
<mdz> as I said
<mdz> if the problem is that the .debs are too big
<mdz> then we break them up
<elmo> mdz: it's utter crack.  if you change one translation in one source package, this n hundred Mb unrsyncable (and not normally rsynce danyway) .deb changes
<sabdfl> then dpkg/apt need to scale to more debs than they should have to
<Mithrandir> mdz: then you get a huge amount of them.
<Kamion> mdz: doesn't help, lots of them will generally change at once
<pitti> ARGH
<mdz> depends on how you break them up
<pitti> this is the very same discussion we had last time
<Kamion> mdz: either you have a source message which changes and lots of translations change, or you have a common translation of a frequently occurring string that changes
<Kamion> mdz: you can't win either way
<elmo> pitti: yes, I know. let's petition sabdfl to not let mdz go on holiday and miss TB meetings ;-)
<pitti> pushing debs to mirrors is crack
<sabdfl> elmo: only if you promise not to go on holiday too ;-)
<smurfix_> I agree with sabdfl. Just use rsync and ignore all files belonging to packages you don't have installed. Problem solved.
<pitti> smurfix: when using /var/cache/locale, we don't even have the possibility of hitting pacakge conflicts
<sabdfl> smurfix_ it's easier than that, since the desktop install generally installs a solid well-defined set of packages
<sabdfl> we only do this for those
<mdz> I think you guys are optimising for the development branch case
<mdz> when we need to optimise for the stable release case
<sabdfl> yes, understood
<mdz> these problems are non-issues for the stable release
<pitti> mdz: you cannot force users to download huge amounts of debs for small translation changes
<Mithrandir> sabdfl: you'd need to ship something to rsync off on the cd, then.  That is a lot more work than shipping one more deb.
<pitti> mdz: s/cannot/it wouldn't be the best solution/
<sabdfl> but i /really/ dislike the idea of switching something this big on only at release time, we discussed that last time
<elmo> mdz: dude, this is not "optimization", this is "having a mirror network vs. not"
<smurfix_> pitti: exactly. local packages use /usr/share. So check there too, and pick the newer one.
<elmo> mdz: if we implemented this with even the number of languages/translations we have today, we'd have zero mirrors within a month
<elmo> hell, _I_ wouldn't mirror us over the GB LAN :-P
<sabdfl> elmo: i love how you tell the truth :-p
<smurfix_> mithrandir: so park the rsync-master file tree onto the cd ..?
<mdz> elmo: ok, I understand.  let's try to change our approach to adapt to that, rather than throwing it away
<Mithrandir> smurfix_: have you touched debian-cd?
<Kamion> smurfix_: er ... uh-huh.
<mdz> I'll say again that this is strictly a development branch issue
<Mithrandir> smurfix_: doing that would be very icky and interesting.
<Mithrandir> smurfix_: I do not think Kamion would like you afterwards. :P
<pitti> mdz: so we need a system that is both able to install premade language debs, prepare these and also update directly from the network
<mdz> and I do not think that we should sacrifice having the feature look the way it should in the final release
<Mithrandir> mdz: I'm worried that elmo is so much against it, though..
<smurfix_> kamion: On the language-pack CD of course. Maybe packaged inside a cpio tree if too many small files are too icky.
<Kamion> smurfix_: I think all this is highly premature
<Mithrandir> smurfix_: that sounds like you're reinventing rpm rather than dpkg, then.
<mdz> Mithrandir: the issues that elmo raises apply only to the development branch, and I think the use case is different enough that we may need to solve the problem in two slightly different ways
<Mithrandir> mdz: mirrors mirror all, though
<Kamion> smurfix_: language pack CD structures aren't something we've even started to think about yet, and I'm not convinced that they're something we ought to be generating centrally anyway
<pitti> mdz: why, if stable users should be able to download their daily translation updates as well, it affects stable too
<mdz> we are not going to force a huge delta increase on mirrors
<Kamion> better to give people an easy way to build an Ubuntu CD for their language
<elmo> mdz: dude, it's not just the development branch.  what about a security update that changes a translation?
<mdz> the sky is NOT falling
<mdz> elmo: they don't
<elmo> bullshit
<elmo> you've uploaded new upstream versions before - it's rare, but it happens
<Kamion> mdz: also security issues exist in translations; consider format string errors
<mdz> if we have a clusterfuck like that, we put the changed translations into the security update .deb
<smurfix_> Well, I'm brainstorming on "how could this work" rather than "how do we make .debs to make it work", so ...
<elmo> mdz: and what Replaces: the langpack?
<Kamion> and if the langpack is a .deb we then run into the non-commutativity of Replaces:
<Kamion> (muttermutterdpkgbugsmuttermutter)
<mdz> elmo: uses a different path
<Mithrandir> versioned conflicts with the broken version of the langpack. (Yes, it's broken, but it works-ish)
<elmo> mdz: and how do apps know which to use?
<Kamion> Mithrandir: urgh
<Kamion> Mithrandir: yay for removing langpacks while upgrading packages
<mdz> elmo: they prefer the one provided by the package, if present (generally not)
<Mithrandir> Kamion: doesn't apt/dpkg DTRT and upgrade?
<smurfix_> ... or the one timestamped newer.
<elmo> mdz: that technology exists for locales already?
<mdz> elmo: if it doesn't, it seems completely trivial to implement
<Kamion> Mithrandir: not if an updated langpack isn't available yet
<Mithrandir> Kamion: then we have to make sure it's available.  (Yes, I know that's not trivial either)
<Keybuk> Mithrandir: dpkg does not upgrade on << conflicts.
<Mithrandir> Keybuk: what about apt and dselect?
<mdz> Mithrandir: depends
<elmo> mdz: *shrug* ok then.  so how/when do you propose to transition to the stable model as part of the development process?
<mdz> depends on how we approach the development-branch model
<elmo> I still think you're trying to fit a square into a round hole, 'cos the round hole is familiar and looks pretty, but that's probably just me
<pitti> err, what is our "stable model"? and why it should be any different from the development one?
<mdz> pitti: put yourself in end-user mode for a moment and consider the problem
<mdz> "I want my Ubuntu to speak <language>"
<pitti> mdz: stable versions do not have any fewer updates than unstable ones
<elmo> oh, hang on
<elmo> mdz this doesn't work
<mdz> what's "this"?
<elmo> mdz: one of the reasons for all this crack, is sabdfl's desire to have translation updates out of bound
<elmo> i.e. in stable, still get translation updates
<pitti> mdz: apt-get install l-s-<language> with a net connection works
<elmo> so there is no stable model
<pitti> mdz: if you don't have a net connection, make it easy to copy the files from another host which has
<pitti> mdz: but that is orthogonal to the particular solution anyway
<Mithrandir> elmo: push updated translation-debs to warty-updates once a week?
<mdz> pitti: "you must have Internet access in order to do that, otherwise use this manual process"?
<sabdfl> mdz: what elmo said. but not about the pretty familiar round hole
<mdz> that answer won't fly for a lot of deployments
<pitti> mdz: how do you want to download stuff without net?
<pitti> mdz: it doesn't matter if you download debs or po file tarballs
<pitti> mdz: "you" == the language pack which manages the stuff
<mdz> sabdfl: what's the basis for updating stable with new translations, as opposed to doing the translations as part of the freeze process, as GNOME does?
<elmo> Mithrandir: that has the "mirror admins lynch you" problem all over again
<Mithrandir> elmo: yes, that might be a slight problem.
<sabdfl> mdz: reality
<mdz> pitti: there is a big difference between a packaging system which downloads packages, and a package which downloads .po files
<Mithrandir> pitti: we end up having to reinvent dpkg to grab the translations off $MEDIA
<pitti> mdz: we can include the current language snapshots on the CD too if we want
<mdz> pitti: you open yourself to a lot of site-specific problems
<mdz> outbound access policy, proxy authentication, ...
<pitti> mdz: but we can use debs to hold the actual updates
<mdz> pitti: and have the package copy them from the CD when it's installed?
<mdz> then suddenly you need to implement this in apt
<pitti> mdz: the point is not to avoid debs, but to avoid building and pushing them to our servers regularly
<pitti> mdz: as I said, you can assemble the debs either on the fly or use premade ones
<Mithrandir> would having a separate repository for translations be complete crack?
<mdz> if it's a problem for them to be pushed to the mirrors regularly, then may I make the bold suggestion that we, well, don't push them to the mirrors regularly?
<pitti> mdz: create them on the fly in rosetta?
<pitti> mdz: when an user wants to update his translations?
<elmo> mdz: or how about this for a bold suggestion: don't insist on sticking with a format that's so inflexible we can neither split them up, nor ship them in one big lump, and that way get to ship them as often as we want
<mdz> pitti: what would the system look like which would decide whether to create a .deb or use an existing one?  which piece of the package management system would it inhabit?
<mdz> what is the proposed alternative transport format?  a few million .po files?
<smurfix_> mdz: million?
<pitti> mdz: ^ that is actually the most flexible one
<pitti> mdz: the user needs to download exactly the po files he needs, nothing else
<elmo> per-source or per-binary package lumps of .po files is an alternative too
<pitti> mdz: but still, having deb as transport format is not a bad idea on itself
<mdz> smurfix: O(packages*languages)
<mdz> which is O(thousands*hundreds) at least
<pitti> mdz: the bad idea is not the deb format, but to include the debs into our normal archive structure
<mdz> elmo: how exactly is a per-source or per-binary lump of .po files better or worse than per-source or per-binary .debs?
<pitti> mdz: re your first question: the deb would be recreated if the user presses "update language"
<pitti> mdz: of course with network access
<elmo> mdz: by definition, they wouldn't be in the pool or bloating the Packages files
<pitti> mdz: alternatively the user can install an updated deb from somewhere else
<mdz> elmo: instead, they would be in a separate "pool" with its own index file and bloat that?
<smurfix_> mdz: end users won't see that many files and mirrors can use more scalable distribution methods if necessary.
<elmo> mdz: if you use .debs, yes :P
<mdz> elmo: or anything else
<pitti> mdz: if you download po files direcly, there is no need for index files at all
<mdz> storing the .po files individually doesn't scale at all
<pitti> mdz: why not?
<mdz> aggregation is a must
<mdz> pitti: how will you determine which ones to download?
<pitti> mdz: timestamps?
<mdz> pitti: you will do thousands and thousands of HTTP HEAD requests?
<Keybuk> sorry guys, I'm going to have to bow out now
<mdz> or download an index with every .po file in it?
<pitti> mdz: not necessarily
<Keybuk> have to pack for both London, Mataro and Christmas-week tonight
<pitti> mdz: you can tell rosetta "give me all translations newer than date x"
<pitti> mdz: rosetta would give you a tarball-like answer
<pitti> mdz: the timestamps can be sent out by rosetta as well
<pitti> mdz: so we don't need to rely on clocks
<pitti> mdz: or peek on po files
<mvo_> pitti: I'm not sure if this will not hit rosetta way too hard if a lot of users use our system
<pitti> mdz: we just store the last timestamp/index mark/whatever of the last update
<smurfix_> if http head doesn't scale, then don't use it ... sounds simple. :-P
<pitti> mvo_: if users start to download translations daily, it doesn't matter if we hit rosetta or archive
<Mithrandir> pitti: rosetta isn't mirrored.
<mdz> smurfix: the point is that we don't have a choice in whether to aggregate .po files into larger blobs
<mdz> which seems to be the idea that everyone is attacking
<pitti> Mithrandir: then let's mirror it :-)
<elmo> mdz: no, what I'm saying is that putting these in .debs in the archive is not a sane solution, given the requirements
<pitti> mdz: but the aggregation would just be temporary as a download armor
<pitti> mdz: s/armor/transport format/
<Mithrandir> elmo: do you think putting them somewhere which is not mirrored would be as bad?
<pitti> Mithrandir: if we don't have the bandwidth to support daily translation downloads, then there is no solution at all, I think
<Mithrandir> if so, the language-pack tool could just be a small shell script which wraps apt similar to d-i's build process.
<mdz> elmo: how do you propose that we provide them as a portable, CD-friendly, installable, removable chunk of data, then?
<pitti> same transport format as for download, I think?
<Mithrandir> pitti: putting plain files on CDs is painful, .debs are easy. :)
<pitti> all translations later than 0
<elmo> mdz: whatever you want dude, I'm not trying to impose a solution on you or pretend to be clever enough to have even close to a good one.  I'm just trying to tell you what is and isn't possible and/or sane from a archive/mirror perspective
<pitti> Mithrandir: so wrap it up in a deb for my sake
<mdz> elmo: the message I'm getting is that we need something which provides .deb-like semantics without sending mirrors running away screaming
<mdz> even if we accept that we need a delta-update mechanism
<pitti> mdz: maybe we should think a bit about this particular problem before continuing
<mdz> we need an initial blob that we ship on CDs
<mdz> pitti: aw, it hasn't even been two hours yet :-)
<smurfix_> the transport blob on cd would just have a few files you don't want *shrug*
<pitti> mdz: the cd can wrap up rosetta's transport format into a deb
<mdz> how do we mirror translations, if not as .debs?
<pitti> mdz: we should rather mirror rosetta's database
<smurfix_> mdz: a replicated datavase?
<Kamion> Mithrandir: .debs not in the main archive are no easier than random files, TBH
<mdz> smurfix: say what?
<smurfix_> database
<Kamion> Mithrandir: at least not significantly
<Mithrandir> Kamion: they are.
<mdz> smurfix: I understood that, but what do you mean?
<mdz> smurfix: "run a copy of this application"?
<Mithrandir> Kamion: just duplicate the code to do security patches on the CD.
<Kamion> Mithrandir: it's pretty trivial to get debian-cd to copy random files onto a CD
<Kamion> Mithrandir: I know how to do it
<Kamion> Mithrandir: the question is doing anything useful with them at the other end
<mdz> anything which is not a flat file is not going to be mirrored to an extent even close to the current archive
<mdz> let's explore that a bit
<mdz> so we have some random data on the CD
<mdz> well, not so random
<mdz> translation data
<mdz> which we need to install on the system
<pitti> mdz: but with any aggregation you will loose the flexibility of individually updating po files
<Kamion> mdz: I'm not necessarily saying it's a good idea, just that it's not impossible
<elmo> mdz: it doesn't necessarily need to be - the hit on translations is going to be an order of magnitude less than archive for some time tocome, and if we come up with something that doesn't involve databases, we will get mirrors for it in time
<Mithrandir> pitti: yes, you will.  Some overhead is fine.
<pitti> mdz: the blob could be put into something similar to /var/cache/apt/archives, and l-s-XX could use that instead of downloading
<mdz> elmo: something that doesn't involve databases == flat file, no/
<mdz> ?
<smurfix_> mdz: it's one possible solution. Whether it's actually feasible for mirrors to run mysql-or-whatever is a different question, which I'm not qualified to answer.
<mdz> pitti: so d-i would do this copying?
<elmo> mdz: no, I mean doesn't invovle replicating databases.. 
<pitti> mdz: it probably has
<pitti> mdz: similar to archive-copier
<mdz> smurfix: I can say, even in near-complete ignorance of the existing mirrors, that it is not feasible
<elmo> mdz: i.e. anything that can be mirrored via http, ftp and/or rsync
<pitti> mdz: if l-s-XX sees that something is already in the cache, it doesn't need to contact rosetta
<mdz> elmo: agreed
<pitti> mdz: just an idea...
<mdz> pitti: what about the case where I have installed the system, and then later want to install an additional language?
<pitti> mdz: without downloading?
* smurfix_ hides for a bit. real life calls :-/
<mdz> pitti: right, say I have an Ubuntu DVD which contains translations for many languages
<Kamion> I would like to avoid piling more and more stuff into d-i which we don't have an interface for changing in the real system
<pitti> mdz: same technology as with the initial install, I think, but we need an easy interface for that
<Kamion> d-i should certainly take care of installing your primary language, but it's not going to solve the whole problem for you
<pitti> Kamion: in fact d-i shouldn't bother about these blobs at all
<pitti> Kamion: d-i should just install l-s-XX and be fine
<Kamion> pitti: mkay
<pitti> the lang packs should have the knowledge of getting their blobs
<Kamion> pitti: but I think you'll find it needs to bother for net-less installs
<pitti> Kamion: at least this seems to be more consistent
<Kamion> pitti: at least at the archive-copier level or similar
<pitti> right
<mdz> pitti: the language pack will not be able to get data from the CD
<pitti> not?
<Kamion> pitti: the CD's ejected
<mdz> I would object to reimplementing apt-cdrom in the language pack
<pitti> mdz: me too
<pitti> maybe archive-copier should be extended then
<pitti> I don't have a very good solution without thinking about it for at least some hours
<mdz> the reason that I'm hesitant to give up on .debs entirely is that so many of these problems simply go away for .debs
<pitti> it's all ad-hoc solutions
<pitti> mdz: then let's find a solution which uses debs as transport format
<mdz> we even have gnome-app-install as a nice interface for add/remove
<pitti> mdz: use debs as wrapper, but don't publish them onto our normal archive
<mdz> I'm at a disadvantage, having missed the previous meeting
<mdz> was a consensus reached there that .debs really aren't the way to go?
<elmo> no
<pitti> mdz: well, at the previous meeting we argued about extracting po files during build and shipping the debs in our archive
<pitti> mdz: no
<mdz> if we move away from .debs, we trade the delta-update problem for a bunch of other problems which aren't necessarily less
<pitti> mdz: wouldn't that be cured by allowing debs to be built on the fly?
<pitti> mdz: allowing, not requiring
<pitti> mdz: initial translations would be on the CD as normal debs
<mdz> pitti: I'm not clear on exactly what the debs-on-the-fly solution would look like, can you describe it?
<pitti> but upgrades would assemble a new deb based on existing and downloaded translations
<pitti> this new deb is then installed normally as a new revision of the old one
<pitti> something along that line
<mdz> what piece of software would be responsible for building the .debs?
<pitti> the langpack, Isuppose
<mdz> the language pack deb?
<pitti> it would depend on dpkg-dev
<pitti> it should be relatively easy to pack together a bunch of po files with a boilerplate control directory
* Mithrandir gets gentoo-vibes from that.
<mdz> if you're thinking of invoking dpkg --install in postinst or something like that, I think there are solid technical reasons not to do that
<pitti> mdz: no, not necessarily in postinst
<Kamion> can't be done in postinsts
<mdz> definitely can't be done now, and good reasons not to fix it
<pitti> mdz: of course we have to delay that somehow
<mdz> pitti: dpkg post-hooks or some such?
<pitti> mdz: I don't know instantly
<pitti> mdz: but I feel that there surely is a sane solution for that
<pitti> mdz: btw, creating the deb is not done in the postinst
<pitti> mdz: it is done in sudo update-language-pack or so
<pitti> mdz: and this could install the deb
<mdz> pitti: it seems to me that you end up solving most of the .deb delta update problem in the process
<mdz> in which case we should just solve the .deb delta update problem and be done with it
<pitti> mdz: we just have to find a way to call update-lang-pack
<pitti> outside of langpack postinst, that is
<pitti> but we solve the mirror problem, the download redundancy and pretty much all other problems AFAICS
<pitti> actually, when I think about it
<mdz> true, the ideal solution for .deb delta updates in apt wouldn't necessarily work for rsync mirrors
<pitti> the translations don't need to be updated in sync with pacackage updates
<pitti> the user could click onto a button "update translations" which would just call update-language-...
<pitti> especialyl in stable releases this is a fine thing
<pitti> since you don't normally upgrade pacakges anyway
<mdz> this is similar to how the OAV signature stuff works, for example
<pitti> (modulo security udpates)
<pitti> Proposal: I will think about it once more and post my result to the list
<mdz> yes, we need to close this meeting
<pitti> unless anybody has a great new idea
<mdz> interest is waning :-)
<pitti> I'll sum up on the list
<mdz> let's give it some more thought and revisit in Mataro
<pitti> oh right, a BOF!
<Mithrandir> BOFs are good.
<mdz> we will have translators, etc. there as well
<pitti> I will work out the current plan for Mataro
<pitti> mdz: right, I already saw the planned bof on the wiki
<mdz> ok
<mdz> thanks, everyone
<mdz> meeting adjourned
<pitti> byebye
#ubuntu-meeting 2004-12-12
<sladen> keybuk: Cadbury == nice Quaker philanthropic chocolate company ;-)
#ubuntu-meeting 2005-12-12
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:robitaille] : Agendas: http://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingAgendas | Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: http://people.ubuntu.com/~fabbione/irclogs/ | 07 Dec 12:00 UTC:  Edubuntu | 07 Dec 14:30 UTC: Accessibility Team | 08 Dec 02:00 UTC: Dapper Development Status | 16 Dec 16:00 UTC: Desktop team
<janeW> ok let's hope I don' get disconnected this week...
<ogra> janeW, isnt that the regular 24h disconnect ? i got them to here 
<ogra> if so, just make sure you connect at another time of day, thn it should happen around this time ...
<janeW> ogra: may be, but I just had one now... so we should be good *holding thumbs*
* ogra crosses fingers
<janeW> ogra: it does drop randomly at times and the national poer failures we have had don't help
<janeW> poer=power
<ogra> national ? ugh ...
<janeW> they keep having to do emergency shut downs of the nuclear plant nearby 8/
<ogra> nearby ? ouch ...
<ogra> that doesnt sound nice ...
<janeW> shoo these Dapper Update Meetings and Tables are keeping me BUSY
<janeW> ogra: yup less than 50km away
<ogra> *shudder*
<kjcole> monring  (or whatever) all.  (And, as usual nothing "good" about it.)
<janeW> heh, I am actually one of it's supporters but I still wouldn;t want to mess with it
<ogra> hey new memeber :)
<kjcole> janeW, isn't it about time for your connection to fail? 
<janeW> ok it;s 14:00
<janeW> kjcole: heh, just happened, we should be good now ;)
<kjcole> ogra, thanks for the support.
<janeW> roll call
<kjcole> kjcole is sleepy... er.. is Kevin Cole
* ogra is OliverGrawert
* kjcole is definitely sleepy.... er... Kevin Cole
<janeW> just the 3 of us?
<jelkner> jelkner is Jeffrey Elkner
<janeW> hi jelkner 
<jelkner> hi jane!
<kjcole> morning, jeff.
<jelkner> good morning kevin
<jelkner> while we wait for other folks, can we do a quick update on documentation?
<kjcole> I'm game.
<ogra> we should probably wait for highvoltage and jsgotango for that
<janeW> let's start with ogra's update now, so we don't run out of time...
<ogra> since they are involved with docs
<janeW> they can catch up from the notes...
<jelkner> ogra: only problem is, i will need to leave by 7:30 pm
<janeW> jelkner: ok you are straight after ogra. ok?
<jelkner> last week i missed a bunch of import stuff (including local devices)
<jelkner> ok
<kjcole> FYI: SInce this falls before my morning commute, and Accessibility Team falls after it, I'm going to blow out of here in 55 minutes...
<janeW> kjcole: ok understood
<ogra> ok, 
<janeW> let's go them, waiting for late ppl just encourages them to be late
<ogra> the CD build looks very good, we should have all 3 arches ready today, i386 hd three uninstallable packages tonight rthat should be gone by now, for the other arches the install CD should be fine already
<flint> morning ollie
<ogra> liveCD builds will start immediately after i have someone building the filesystem for me ...(i.e. directly after the ubuntu livefs was built)
<ogra> (thats done by lamont/infinity)
<janeW> great
<janeW> ogra: much better than we were last time :)
<ogra> i had a workshop and talk last weekend at the essener linuxtage, which resulted in several people who want to join development now :)
<janeW> EXCELLENT
<janeW> ogra: do you think they will?
<ogra> i.e. i have one guy who wants to take over ltsp-manager from me ;)
<janeW> :)
<ogra> the other ones are not this concrete ...
<janeW> ogra: I see you got the thinclient-memory-usage spec to Approved.
<ogra> spacey, worked with willow the last days ...
<janeW> and faster-startup to Pending Reivew
<ogra> thats next on my list ;)
<janeW> so getting there
<ogra> the specs are reviewed, and i have a list of changes from mdz to put into the two missing ones ....
<ogra> after i made these changes they should get approved straight
* jelkner is waiting with anticipation to hear about local devices...
<ogra> the local device spec is still in drafting and will wait for a meeting between mdz, sbalneaves and me 
<ogra> to decide what we do and what is feasable with it
<ogra> its the one that requires most manpower (not only mine) and the one that had lowest prio from the beginning
<janeW> ogra: are you setting up that meeting or must I?
<jelkner> why lowest prio?
<ogra> janeW, i can ...
<jelkner> i would argue that without it, we really don't have edubuntu
<ogra> jelkner, i dont make the prioritisation
<janeW> ogra: please do if you can
<janeW> I am drowning in LP, plans and spreadsheets
<kjcole> who sets the priorities and how?  I would think it might be us... 
<flint> local devices seem very "dapper".  is is  a  personpower issue or an approach isssue?
<ogra> jelkner, you said we dont have edubuntu without content filtering
<janeW> kjcole: us and mdz mainly
<jelkner> ogra: yes, but that was until you gave me a different solution for that
<ogra> jelkner, which is rather achieveable now ...
<flint> ogra, actually that was my flawed vision about the content filtering...
<jelkner> great!
<ogra> since spacey took the task 
<jelkner> i'm only reporting back feedback from the users
<janeW> local devices are important
<jelkner> everyone keeps asking "how can students save their work?"
<jelkner> i don't know what to tell them yet
<janeW> ogra: any more progress for the week?
<ogra> sure, but still, the spec is low/mid prio and not ready yet 
<jelkner> janeW: how do priorities get set?
<ogra> we have some odd Xorg bugs currently so ltsp is broken, i had not enough tim yet due to my normal distro work ... i hope to have that fixed until next meeting
<jelkner> is there a way to appeal a priority?
* spacey pong
<ogra> jelkner, thats a mdz/sabdfl thing
<janeW> jelkner: mail me and I'll process it
<jelkner> will do
<flint> ogra, ollie, what can we do to help get local devices?  Are priorities disclosed on a wikki somewhere?
<janeW> jelkner: I can raise the priority, but that won;t necessarily change the expectation of delivery, esp if there is a technical blocker
<jelkner> understood
<janeW> flint: it;s all on launchpad
<janeW> jelkner: but I will support getting this done, because it is clearly needed
<ogra> http://people.ubuntu.com/~ogra/edubuntu/dapper-20051205-1.png shows the latest bootchart, mdz has the opinion we can cut down some (10?) seconds from X detection and Keybuk told me the over all speed might be cut down by 15sec so we're getting there
<janeW> https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/dapper/+specstable
<flint> JaneW, actually it is all on my computer, thanks for the specifics ollie!
<ogra> flint, learn dbus programming :P
<janeW> flint: there's no dreaded wiki table this time
<ogra> thats one of the blockers, i'm not into dbus enough that i'd trust my skills to do it alone ...
<ogra> but since most of the other specs are done alread i'll have lots of time to concentrate on the device suff ...
<janeW> flint: ogra and I are somewhat constrained by mdz's call wrt priority etc
<ogra> but i dont give promises for specs that arent even running as a proof of concept locally for me, please understand that
<flint> yeah verily, we require a Jedi, and they are in short supply...
<janeW> bring em on
<jelkner> i have to leave in 10 minutes, any chance we can sneek in a quick documentation report?
<janeW> yes jelkner go ahead
<ogra> goby is still waiting for a review from pitti, so we most likely wont see it on the flight2 CD
<jelkner> kjcole and i have been meeting each weekend to work on the cookbook
<ogra> ok, i'm done
<jelkner> here is where we are:
<flint> jelkner, you are SUCH a whiner...go ahead :^)
<jelkner> 1. we've taken the original source and convereted it to plain text
<jelkner> 2. we have edited the first 2 chapters, removing tuxlab specific stuff
<janeW> jelkner/ kjcole - sounds good :)
<jelkner> 3. we are planning to use lore to mark it up so we can have quick, web ready copy
<janeW> jelkner: is it quite a chore?
<jelkner> 4. we will finish removing tuxlab specific stuff the next few weeks
<juliux_> hi all
<kjcole> 1.5 We've broken it into several separate files, basically along chapter lines.
<jelkner> 5. then we will begin adding edubuntu specific information
<jelkner> so it is a build down and then build up process
<jelkner> one thing to keep in mind that effects artwork
<zakame> jedi!
<janeW> jelkner: sounds very logical and sequential
<ogra> jelkner, i aksed kjcole yesterday already, i'd like to have regular reviews of the tech stuff in there, the tuxlabs technical side is quite different from our implementation ...
<jelkner> if we want the book out by dapper release
* mhz is here
<jelkner> it would be very helpful if we could have the artwork at least a few weeks early
<janeW> hi mhz: congrats re CC membership
<jelkner> so we can include screen shots with the correct artwork
<ogra> jelkner, we have an artwork deadline in the release schedule
<janeW> jelkner: you need new artwork?
<jelkner> thats all i have
<ogra> thats some weeks before the doc deadline afaikl
<mhz> thanx janeW
<kjcole> ogra, the tuxLab cookbook made me curious about "wizzy" (which I assume is one of those differences)
<jelkner> no, i mean whatever artwork dapper will have
<ogra> jelkner, yes
<ogra> thats what i talked about
<janeW> jelkner: ok fair enough, screenshots would make sense, do you need to change or add to the illustrations too?
<jelkner> great
<jelkner> add to
<ogra> there are two weeks between artwork and doc deadline for exactly this purpose
<jelkner> mostly screenshots
<jelkner> excellent
<janeW> wiki.ubuntu.com/DapperReleaseSchedule <- for dates
<jelkner> ok, i'm finished
<janeW> jelkner: excellnt, I am very please to hear there's been progress with this :))
<kjcole> I've contacted both the original (?) author and illustrator, and buttered them up, but haven't asked for anything. 
<janeW> thanks 2 you both for taking you w/e for this .
<janeW> kjcole: have they responded and been friendly?
<kjcole> I get the impression they'd be willing, provided there's time.
<janeW> kjcole: awesome
<kjcole> janeW: Both replied very positively.
<janeW> :)
<flint> jelkner, I recall that the original tuxlab docs had a lot in them about physical infastructure, how are you handling this in transition to dapper ubuntu 
<ogra> flint, we should keep it ...
<janeW> agreed
<jelkner> we will keep it
<kjcole> Also, as I said in e-mail a bit premature, but just something to keep in the back of heads: When/If hardcopy publishing, perhaps Lulu Press...
<jelkner> but edubuntu will be more specific
<janeW>  we should also have hardware specs in there, we get asked about that alot
<ogra> the physical stuff will be the ame everywhere
<mhz> janeW: I am running to a meeting (2 actually) I am sorry I am not here today. However, I have just sent an email to the ML where I report on everything I have been upto.
<jelkner> to the distro
<jelkner> tuxlab is a project, not a distro
<ogra> janeW, they should be on the website 
<janeW> mhz: great, thanks
<jelkner> so it was more general
<janeW> yes, understood
<jelkner> ok, folks, i need to run...
<janeW> ok any more of the documentation?
<jelkner> same time next week
<ogra> yup
<janeW> thanks jelkner , have a good day
<jelkner> bye
<flint> later jeff...thanks.
<ogra> bye
<janeW> ogra: I presume other docs like about edubuntu etc will come later in the cycle, it;s still a bit early for that now
<ogra> yup
<janeW> howevere I see ubuntu has a release note page up, to gather stuff as it happens, should we do the same?
<ogra> mdz has put up a dapper release notes page, we should probably do that too now
<ogra> heh
<janeW> ok, I'll do that
<janeW> ok artwork?
<kjcole> We're meeting once a week, and lore's pretty simple as markup.  One thing is it doesn't (yet) produce an index, though I understand that's in progress too.  That's it from me and documentation.
<janeW> is there any one here to talk about that?
<ogra> mhz is gone ....
<ogra> any news from the canonical side ? 
* janeW hasn't heard of lore, but if it works for you and saves in a usable format I am happy
* mhz still here ogra :)
<ogra> for the professional stuff ? 
<janeW> ogra: no nothing yet. silbs is still not back in the office, so I don;t expect anything till she is back and settled
<flint> lore is best found with the search term python-lore...
<kjcole> lore is the Twisted Python's built-in documentation stuff for their docs, converts to HTML, LaTeX, and a couple of others I think.
<ogra> i'd still like to know if we get pro artwork for all three age stages we'll have
<janeW> has anyone responded to the recent mailing list messages offering help?
<flint> the neat thing about lore is that it is default installed in the badger by default :^)
<janeW> I know mhz is doing great things in the spanish speaking commmunities, but we need to harness the english speaking offers of help too
<kjcole> toxictoadz has been approved as a member of the Edubuntu Cookbook Cooks, but I haven't written back yet.
<mhz> janeW: harness, how do you see it?
<janeW> ogra: re art, I'll try to get an answer on that soon... by the way do you agree that the 3 designs should be 1) Junior, 2) senior 3) Plain ?
<ogra> yes
<kjcole> (and mhz... well, he's already here, isn't he. ;-)  He's also a cook.)
<flint> janeW, is there leather involved :^)
* mhz is not giving opinions today or he'll get motivated to stick around :D
<janeW> glad there are so many cooks... dont spoil the book :P
<kjcole> janeW, (I think the e-mail you were referring to was from toxictoadz)
<ogra> and beware the salt :)
<flint> janeW, I mean about the harnessing...can you point to a page about the levels Jane?
<ogra> flint, its on the meeting records 
<ogra> the part from ubz 
<mhz> flint: thx for harnessing question.. I hadn't got that either
<mhz> oops
<janeW> flint: levels?
<ogra> hmm, it actually isnt ...
<flint> janeW, I mean designs
<janeW> I was talking about toxictoad and Babak Manssouri  and any others that come along
<janeW> flint: sorry I am not understanding you today
<kjcole> toxictoadz looks to be more of a translation and artwork person
<ogra> flint, the artwork package will be configurable to select between 3 age levels ...
<ogra> there is no further magic involved :)
<janeW> by harness I meant if someone offers help, grab them and suck them dry....
<janeW> (joking) but make the most of it...
<flint> janeW, the 3 designs should be 1) Junior, 2) senior 3) Plain these are the levels... 
<ogra> flint, since we'll get a professional designer i cant say much more 
<janeW> flint: Ahhh I understand the levels now...
<flint> janeW, is levels an appropriate term?
<janeW> flint: it's not much more that that for now, so we are starting with a clean slate... what we have now (apart from wallpaper) is liked for junior
<janeW> flint: looks?
<flint> janeW, it's ok nobody understands me (SIGH!:^)
<kjcole> janeW, I must have missed Babak Manssouri.  I haven't paid as much attention to the artwork e-mails.  Do you recall if he (I'm assuming "he") was artwork or text or unspecified?
<ogra> the mid ager will require a icon set decision ...
<janeW> has anything happned with the a11y stuff?
<flint> ogra, ollie will this require a choice screen in the installer?
<flint> janeW, what ally?
<ogra> janeW, they are working on a liveCD for massachusets afaik
<janeW> ogra: ok
<ogra> flint, yes
<Kamion> flint: I certainly hope not
<Kamion> ogra: please discuss that with me, that's very suboptimal
<ogra> it needs to
<janeW> flint a11y = accessability (apparently)
<kjcole> flint, ally = accessibility
<Kamion> (later)
<ogra> yup
<flint> janeW, Ally = my wife.
<janeW> ogra: are we doing edubuntu express at all?
<ogra> flint, thats an 11 not ll
<kjcole> flint, is she accessible?  ;-)
<janeW> flint: so is she accessible?
<janeW> *duck*
<ogra> janeW, it will be on the liveCD, so yes ....
<flint> you all are bad people...
<kjcole> janeW, great minds...
<janeW> kjcole: *high five*
<ogra> janeW, but that will install only the workstation version
<janeW> ogra: oic, ok makes sense
<janeW> btw did you all see you slachdot mention?
<ogra> janeW, i dont plan a specific edubuntu version
<janeW> ogra: and someone NEEDS to mention LTSP there
<janeW> s/c/s
* ogra doesnt write on /.
<kjcole> Nice! And that guy Greg Philips? who did the nice review in his blog...
<janeW> yes :)
<flint> ogra, ollie what the heck is up in Massachusetts?  
<janeW> ok we are chatting again - which is fine as long as someone isn't waiting to talk about something important...
<ogra> flint, they are in the decision process to switch theor municipalities ...
<ogra> to linux
<flint> janew, I think the slashdot piece repudiated your graphic choices...
<ogra> or some other stuff ...
<flint> ogra, I am in the next state over.  let me know who/how I can get involved please.
<kjcole> Since we're just chatting, any thoughts/post-Dapper+x fantasies regarding publication or is that a Doc Team question?  
<ogra> flint, no idea .... i only know that they wahted to look at ubuntu but require full a11y support
<kjcole> Also, not sure of the appropriate meeting: I've been in touch with a friend who
<ogra> so the a11y team tries to provide a liveCD to test ...
<ogra> flint, you might want to contact TheMuso or dholbach about it
<flint> kjcole, publish or perish eh?  I see the connection know between ally and dapper.  Thanks ollie for the contact names.
<janeW> flint: I didn't get that... but I was hearing pl saying it's nothing but a different desktop, completey missing the LTSP component
<march> hi@all
<janeW> kjcole: for the cookbook you mean?
<kjcole> is blind and was a professional Braille proofreader for the Library of Congress.  He's peripherally helping with both a11y and helping me make connections with LoC to get a cookbook officially part of their collection...
<ogra> janeW, i saw people mentioning the LTSP 
<kjcole> janeW: The cookbook in particular, but other stuff as well possibly.
<janeW> kjcole: if we make it rock we can may be convince the sabd to publish it
<flint> janeW, the Slashdot review really played up the angle of a distro for geek children.  This is hitting the nail on the head (or in this case geekletts ont he head :^)
<kjcole> janeW: Ah.  Well, then that *potentially* simplifies things.
<janeW> flint: agreed
* mhz has wikied the mail sent for better use http://wiki.edubuntu.org/MauricioHernandez/WeeklyUpdates/2005Dec7
<flint> kjcole, jez kevin, if you write a good book, somone will publish the silly thing.  Keep your shirt on and write!
<mhz> ok, sorry you all, gotta run!
<mhz> bye
<flint> mdz, thanks!
<dholbach> flint: i guess that dcc didn't work through my router/firewall-thingie
<flint> janeW, ok enough stroking jane, what's next on your dreaded agenda?
* janeW must get these notes up, and get back to dapper status updates, in prep for ***4AM*** meeting tomorrow am
<flint> dholbach, what dcc thing my man?
<dholbach> flint: you made a dcc chat request?
<Kamion> janeW: 2am surely ...
<ogra> flint, artwork is always last :)
<janeW> the ones that moaned about not enough time are not even here this week, and so we have extra time.
<janeW> Kamion: 4am for me (UTC +2)
<Kamion> oh, didn't realise .za was so far ahead
<janeW> Kamion: yup
<ogra> just for the record, we have a popular contributor to edubuntu, linus sent a little app :)
<janeW> Kamion: you wanna add anything esle to edubuntu?
<Kamion> nope
<janeW> ogra: oh yes!
<janeW> ogra: he hasn't responded to me yet...
<ogra> its a cool thingie but has an awful gui :)
<Kamion> only comment really is that adding installer questions is non-trivially awkward, and with the live installer you have to design two UIs
<Kamion> I'd really very strongly recommend making it easily switchable after install instead
<Kamion> (you have to do that anyway)
<janeW> Kamion: ITA
<Kamion> the ltsp hack for edubuntu breezy nearly managed to break ubuntu netboot
<ogra> Kamion, yes, we can decide on a defaulut ...
<Kamion> and only didn't by dumb luck
<janeW> ogra: do you agree, we should have a default and then make it switchable after install?
<Kamion> janeW: ITA?
<ogra> janeW, see above :)
<janeW> I Tend to Agree
<flint> dholbach, sorry I am a nubie re dcc...
<Kamion> ah, ok
<dholbach> flint: don't worry :)
<kjcole> ogra, thingie? More specific?
<ogra> Kamion, and i'm not sure if we want to keep the ltsp hack.... it doesnt make sense for multiarch ltsp
<janeW> flint: and with me you are either stroked or whipped - take your pick :P
<ogra> kjcole, it logs out a given user afer a certain amount of time ... 
<ogra> and shows a timer ....
<ogra> (the time is written in tcl and looks awful, the tool iself is very cool)
<ogra> *timer
<Kamion> ogra: I can see more justification for ltsp-client-builder
<flint> Kamion, you are not refering to the "lotr" patch when you talk of an ltsp hack are you?
<Kamion> flint: no
<ogra> Kamion, i'd rather have http://people.ubuntu.com/~ogra/LTSPManager/ for post install action
<flint> Kamion, gotcha.
<ogra> so you can select the target arch for the clients
<Kamion> it's just technically difficult at the moment to have different installer flow for different flavours (ubuntu/kubuntu/edubuntu), for pretty much the same reason as we can't have different base systems for different flavours; a lot of it's done by priority in the archive and we don't have per-flavour priorities
<Kamion> flint: referring to the thing in the Edubuntu installer that builds an LTSP client chroot during install
<ogra> Kamion, but thats neither speced nor do i put time into it currently, its only a base for community contributions
<flint> Kamion, i am on the page thanks
<Kamion> ogra: integrating that into the live installer would be sane I think, but probably dapper+1
<ogra> yes
<ogra> thats what its planned for 
<ogra> (dapper+1)
<kjcole> Tick-tock... Time for me to run to work so I can make the A11y Team meeting.  (Someday, maybe I'll do work for my office again too...) 
<ogra> i did only the glade stuff and the worst backend part (dhcp...) te rest is for community contribution and has a non predictable deadline
<ogra> janeW, meeting done ? 
<janeW> yup thanks guys
<ogra> thanks janeW :)
<janeW> everyone OUT ;P
<flint> janeW thanks.  will hang for the ally meeting here.
<kjcole> janeW, thanks for having us. ;-)
<flint> janeW, meeting next week same leather time same leather channel?
<kjcole> Flint, a11y's not for an hour and a half *I HOPE* (I'm at home and need food on the way to work)
<flint> kjcole, gotcha I will be back in 90 minutes then.  thanks kevin. 
<kjcole> Later all...
<pburkholder>  /leave 
<highvoltage> pong
<TheMuso> Hey kjcole.
<kjcole> Hiya, kidz.
<dholbach> hey
* jbailey bleets
<kjcole> jbaily, baaaaaah humbug?
<jsgotangco> dee dum
<kjcole> s/jbaily/jbailey/
<jbailey> kjcole, Well.  It's the only noise I ever seen a kid game. =)
<kjcole> jbailey, ah. touche.
<TheMuso> We still don't have Henrik.
<jsgotangco> meeting started?
<TheMuso> Don't think so.
<jbailey> I was chatting with him a while ago and he was going off to lunch.  I'd expect him back RSN.
<dholbach> right
<TheMuso> jbailey: Thanks.
<jsgotangco> ahhh
<dholbach> everybody can check https://wiki.ubuntu.com/AccessibilityTeamMeetingAgenda in the meantime
* jsgotangco waits for henrik to roll around
<dholbach> ROCK
<TheMuso> Yes please do. THere have been some additions to it.
<jsgotangco> speaking of henrik...
<hno73> hello all!
<TheMuso> Welcome Jason. Nice to have you along.
<jsgotangco> hi henrik
* jgrieves yawns ugg 5 hours of sleep
<TheMuso> Hey Henrik.
<jgrieves> hi Luke :)
<dholbach> hi everybody
<dholbach> everybody had a brief glimpse on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/AccessibilityTeamMeetingAgenda ?
<jgrieves> us low vision people need at least 7 hours of sleep to function properly
* TheMuso doesn't think it has been updated since he added a few things..
<dholbach> who proposed the first topic?
<TheMuso> I think that may have been stuff from last meeting.
<dholbach> oh yes
<dholbach> we proceed to the 2nd item
<dholbach> TheMuso: that's yours, right?
<TheMuso> But did we talk about use cases much, or look into them?
<TheMuso> Should we now?
<dholbach> we can do that as well
<TheMuso> Ok.
<jsgotangco> hrmm
<dholbach> jsgotangco: ...? :)
<hno73> Oh, sorry. I think I proposed most of the points without name :p
<jsgotangco> i like the idea of #2
<jsgotangco> im looking at the site now
<hno73> 1-5 really :)
<dholbach> hno73: don't worry :)
<TheMuso> Jason Grieves, who is fortunate enough to be present at this meeting has been writing some documentation about using Ubuntu with the various accessibility apps. You can grab a copy from http://www.themuso.com/ubuntu/accessibility. It is a text file.
<jsgotangco> i have a windows partition i'll experiment on this tommorow
<TheMuso> I think we ort to get one or two people to look over it, and wiki it. It is a great starting point.
<zakame> hello all
<TheMuso> jgrieves: Anything you want to add, please do so, or feel free to correct me if I am wrong.
* jsgotangco bookmarks them
<jgrieves> agreed, i'd like to get some people to work with me on it
<dholbach> is it kind of a test plan?
<jgrieves> we need pictures, more step by step
<dholbach> or a howto?
<jgrieves> descriptions of each preference and how it affects the system
<dholbach> or maybe we could use it for both
<dholbach> jgrieves: it looks fairly comprehensive
<jsgotangco> it does
<jgrieves> dholbach there wasn't much on th eweb, besides Sun's accessiblity guide
<jsgotangco> i can start moving this to code
<dholbach> *nod*
<jgrieves> which was difficult for me to use 
<dholbach> it looks cool, maybe something for the doc-team too
<jgrieves> because i need to know what was good for low vision people
<dholbach> jgrieves: well done
<jgrieves> i had to filter through their stuff, and eventually decided to just write my own
<TheMuso> Yeah thats right. The docs for GNOME accessibility are either very hard to find, or out of date.
<jsgotangco> pretty much
<dholbach> *nod*
<TheMuso> ,pst;u
<TheMuso> mostly
<jgrieves> there are some updated items that we can use for user cases
<jgrieves> such as full screen magnification, which i have tested for a couple of hours
<jgrieves> which actually works much better than split screen
<dholbach> i can send a reminder (wiki-ing it) and the link to the mailing list later
<TheMuso> Ok.
<jsgotangco> nice
<hno73> Yeah. It looks great!
<TheMuso> jgrieves: Have you a wiki/launchpad account?
<jsgotangco> i'll start moving this to source too
<jgrieves> yep Luke
<TheMuso> Good.
<hno73> It would be cool to put it on-line and perhaps persuaded he abilitynet people to put it on their site too
<hno73> as an alternative to the Windows guides
<jsgotangco> yes
<jgrieves> yeah it really needs to be dynamic by beling able to click links and such
<hno73> before you know it it will be on the BBC computer help pages
<jgrieves> i.e. in low vision section and want to get ot gnopernicus
<TheMuso> I noticed that some instructions used the terminal. Should we consider putting instructions in for using synaptec?
<mpt> the Windows guides are boringly exhaustive :-)
<hno73> mpt: you think too much so?
<dholbach> added it to https://wiki.ubuntu.com/AccessibilityTeam/Links as well
<kjcole> I've dug up another possible resource: National Center for Accessible Media (NCAM) at: http://ncam.wgbh.org/
<TheMuso> Cool.
<mpt> hno73, yeah, last time I looked there were about 30 pages, about 90% being exactly the same in each one
<dholbach> i forgot... which agenda point are we on :)
<TheMuso> AFAIK 2.
<dholbach> ah ok, 2nd, right
<jsgotangco> lol
<hno73> mpt: cool. I'll feed that back to them (or we'll just make ours better)
<linbetwin> hello, everyone! Can anyone participate in this meeting? Hello, Jason! you're the only one I know here
<dholbach> linbetwin: sure, it's public
<dholbach> linbetwin: welcome
<jsgotangco> linbetwin, welcome
<jgrieves> greetings
<TheMuso> linbetwin: welcome. You are a work collegue of Jason's?
<TheMuso> Either way, thanks for joining us.
<linbetwin> no. I wrote to him about gnopernicus
<TheMuso> Ah right.
<dholbach> ok, so we agreed on wiki-ing it and maybe feeding it to the doc-team (jerome)? :)
<jsgotangco> shove it to me
<dholbach> and maybe use it as a starting point for testplans
<TheMuso> Note that this is for breezy I think.
<TheMuso> the doc that is.
<jsgotangco> the doc looks a bit terse but can be improved
<TheMuso> Yeah, a little fleshing out probably. Thats what I thought.
<jgrieves> jsgotangco agreed
<dholbach> shall we proceed the the 3rd item?
<jsgotangco> okay
<TheMuso> Fine with me.
* jsgotangco will adopt this
<dholbach> ok
<dholbach> next up are bounty ideas
* jgrieves is adopted
<dholbach> hno73: you mean, real bounties? like paying for them and everything?
<TheMuso> What is X-10 support anyone?
<hno73> dholbach: yeah, we can propose them to the pool right?
<jsgotangco> hmmm
<jbailey> TheMuso, X10 gear I'm familiar with is for home automation.
<hno73> There is/was a dormat AT bounty in there that was too vague
<jsgotangco> should we do specs?
<jsgotangco> jbailey, that evil X10 camera thing that started it all?
<TheMuso> hno73: It was way to big a task.
<jsgotangco> X10 is quite old but reliable
<dholbach> we need specs for those, but we need to split up, what could be TODO items for the team
<hno73> I'v got some X10 hardware I can send to anyone who wants to try
<jbailey> jsgotangco, Dunno.  The X10 stuff I used was for remote power cycling based on serial commands.
<jsgotangco> yeah
<jbailey> jsgotangco, That was about a decade ago, though.
<jsgotangco> that's the X10 alright
<hno73> TheMuso: You mean the one from 6 months ago, or whatever, yeah
<TheMuso> hno73: Yes.
<jbailey> jsgotangco, It's how we did remote power control on the FSFs servers. =)
<jsgotangco> hno73, linux has good X10 support?
<jsgotangco> ohhh
<dholbach> can anybody tell me, what we need to do about x10 in ubuntu?
<jsgotangco> control appliances via ubuntu?
<flint> note that X10 has two standards, the old and the new.
<jsgotangco> the only X10 i have ever used is a camera
<flint> X10 version 1  is an ac line type of unidirectional addressable power control
<kjcole> flint, how new is "new"?
<dholbach> we should first investigate, if there's existing code, we could use
<flint> X10 version 2 is bidirectional and way better
<hno73> so you can use it to switch on lights, open doors, etc. cool stuff for mobility impairment folks
<hno73> attaches with a box to your serial port
<flint> new is my version of new.  EG IBM MVS is "new"
<TheMuso> There is an x10 package in breezy and would be in dapper as well.
<hno73> it's fairly cheap comodity stuff
* jsgotangco should try that x10 camera downstairs
<flint> hno73, and not all that reliable...
<kjcole> flint, then I'm afraid to ask how old "old" is. 
<hno73> there are some simple CLI tools for running the switches
<jsgotangco> cli...
<dholbach> hno73: do you have experience, how well the package works?
<hno73> flint: how's that? you mean with interference on the el-net?
<kjcole> jsgotangco, is that a question? If so Command Line Interface.
<linbetwin> As I wrote to Jason, I'm trying to use gnopernicus+gnome-mag, but it only follows the text cursor in the rerminal and gedit and it shows some ugly black patches when moved. This does not happen in kmag, but kmag doesn't follow text editing at all. I tried to make a demo using istanbul but it didn't work. Is there any hope that will improve in Dapper?
<hno73> I think the simple package works well, but the gui stuff is more random
<jsgotangco> kjcole, nope...i meant i'm not really into cli for this stuff...
<flint> I used X10 years ago under windo$e...
<hno73> See: http://linuxha.sourceforge.net/
<flint> I will look at it under breezy...
<dholbach> linbetwin: if we write bugreports to the gnome folks, then probably
<jgrieves> linbetwin we may have some solutions for you in a bit, Luke is working on a new gnome-mag
<hno73> Linux Home Automation project
<flint> gotcha...
<jsgotangco> ohhh
<jgrieves> linbetwin i'll ping you after meeting
<TheMuso> jgrieves: You referring to the XDamage bug?
<kjcole> jsgotangco, ah.
<jgrieves> Luke yes
<TheMuso> Well nothing more on the bug front has happened yet.
<dholbach> hno73: we should investigate in the links there to know, if there's software we can include? does that make sense?
<jgrieves> may be able to get linbetwin to test package?
<linbetwin> sure, what package?
<hno73> dholbach: sure. I'm sure there is. When I say flaky, I mean, written in Perl, kludgy user interface, etc.
<dholbach> *nod* better than nothing :)
<dholbach> something to start from :)
<hno73> It might be better to take the CLI tools and make a very simple and pretty interface in python
<dholbach> i added it to http://wiki.ubuntu.com/AccessibilityTeam/TODO
<hno73> ... for example. just ideas
<dholbach> what about "high visibility themes"?
<TheMuso> I have been talking back and forth between jgrieves and dholbach  about themes stuff, particularly mouse cursors.
<flint> hno73, the X10 version one el-net had some problem finding the "zero cross" all the time.  Let me revisit this.
<hno73> I don't think we even have large mouse cursors ATM do we?
<jgrieves> dholbach i covered some of that in guide
<TheMuso> hno73: xcursor-themes
<TheMuso> But could do with a bit of work
<dholbach> jgrieves: ok, cool
<jgrieves> yep and a few others i found like a high contrast cursor package
<TheMuso> One other problem is that the cursor returns to normal size when the mouse shows FireFox loading a page.
<dholbach> maybe we could have a accessibility meta-package, which pulls in stuff that might be useful?
<jgrieves> we could develop xcursor-accessibiliy-theme
<dholbach> if we could decide on software, i'd take care of it
<hno73> TheMuso: right, so that 'bit of work' is what needs doing
<jgrieves> dholbach yeah exactly what i was thinking
<TheMuso> hno73: I think so yeah.
<dholbach> cool
<hno73> there are bits floating around on kde-look, etc
<dholbach> i'll add it to todo
<hno73> but we need to bring it together in one place
<hno73> Icons with good contrast
<hno73> large X-cursors, etc
<TheMuso> Yeah. A large black cursor should be created as well.
<jgrieves> hno73 the accessibilty themes are pretty good
<jgrieves> just no cursors
<hno73> jgrieves: OK, cool. so that's 90% done then :)
<jgrieves> if someone wanted to tackle making an ubuntu accessibility theme
<dholbach> it'd be great, if say  a11y-visual  would pull in  gnome-mag  and  xcursor-themes  -  does that make sense?
<jsgotangco> can we package those themes or at least the settings?
<jgrieves> there isn't anything like that of course, reverting to gnome-accessibiiity make it look like gnome simple theme
<TheMuso> dholbach: Yeah but gnome-mag needs a front-end to use it, i.e gnopernicus.
<dholbach> TheMuso: yeah... i was just thinking loudly
<dholbach> :)
<jgrieves> what about an entire accessibity meta package?
<TheMuso> right.
<dholbach> jgrieves: exactly
<jgrieves> brings in everything
<dholbach> i added it to the todo page
<TheMuso> But what if the user doesn't want speech stuff for example.
<jgrieves> turned off by default?
<linbetwin> exactly
<TheMuso> What about if the user wants it?
<kjcole> Speaking of themes: When making icons, make them as unambiguous as possible.  (I don't know what that means practically, but consider it as icons are made.)
<hno73> So now we need a control panel :)
<TheMuso> My point is, a metapackage is not the sollution for everybody.
<jgrieves> Luke, uninstallt?
<dholbach> we can have different meta packages
<TheMuso> Yeah perhaps.
<dholbach> that's why i suggested    a11y-visual
<TheMuso> Yeah that would be ok.
<jgrieves> some low vision users want a magnifier and a screen reader
<hno73> Yeah, I think 4-5 metapavkages are a good idea
<dholbach> DesktopTeam/MetaPackage
<hno73> they can overlap of course
<dholbach> we can use that for discussion
<TheMuso> Indeed.
<jgrieves> we just don't want to overwhelm the choices
<jgrieves> with someoen who might not be familiar with AT
<dholbach> i'm happy to prepare those packages once we have an agreement
<kjcole> For example, I find a magnifying glass for zoom and a pair of binoculars for search to be ambiguous and interchangable... sort of.
<kjcole> (I'm not saying those appear in Ubuntu anywhere, but I know I've seen them somewhere in M$ Windoze apps.)
<hno73> dholbach: cool. I'll do some thinking on DesktopTeam/MetaPackage later as well
<dholbach> hno73: ROCK
<dholbach> we really need to investigate more, if there's other software/themes/... out there, we want to have
<dholbach> this is the right time in the release cycle to get them included and tested
<dholbach> so we have them for dapper
<dholbach> we can test the test-livecds (if you don't want to upgrade to dapper)
<dholbach> oh hang on... those won't be on the testcds
<TheMuso> dholbach: Derivative.
<jgrieves> this would resolve the gnopernicus w/o gnome-mag?
<dholbach> yeah, but this takes time - stuff has to be packaged and uploaded anyways
<dholbach> and this is something, i can do *now*
<TheMuso> True.
<jgrieves> i've answered that 2-3 times on gnome-accessibilty and boards
<hno73> There is also the vmware option for testing
<linbetwin> i can test on dapper
<dholbach> livecd + installing universe packages over the net (synaptic) should be fine too
<dholbach> so if you propose new software, i can try to get it packaged and uploaded
<dholbach> but i need to know what :)
<jgrieves> anyone tried emacspeak?
<dholbach> i opened http://wiki.ubuntu.com/AccessibilityTeam/NewSoftware for that
<TheMuso> jgrieves: I personally don't think emacspeak should be considered for new users just yet.
<dholbach> (those pages are all linked from  http://wiki.ubuntu.com/AccessibilityTeam )
<jgrieves> Luke is it in repopsitories at least? i'm thinking of power users
<jgrieves> i'm not even sure i''m "power" enough to use emacs :)
<dholbach> jgrieves: it is
<TheMuso> It is in breezy, so it should be in dapper.
<jgrieves> great thanks
<dholbach> so we agree on looking for accessibility-related software and reporting it on the mailing list?
<TheMuso> For themes/cursors? Yeah.
<dholbach> ^---- *please* :)
<jgrieves> yes
<kjcole> dholbach, should my SpecialNeeds page be somehow moved into the AccessibilityTeam tree?
<hno73> yes
<dholbach> kjcole: seems to make sense
<dholbach> cool
<dholbach> shall we proceed to SpeechSynthesisProposal?
<TheMuso> I am happy to if others are.
<jgrieves> sure, but I think Luke should pass out his home made cookies first
<dholbach> hehe
* TheMuso passes out cookies to everyone.
<hno73> kjcole: can you look at using it to fles out https://wiki.ubuntu.com/AccessibilityTesting/UserGroups ?
<dholbach> hno73: SpeechSynthesisProposal was yours?
<jsgotangco> festival not working good enough?
<hno73> btw, I spoke with someone today who feels that Orca is about 1 year from being useable, so that may get a low priority still
<kjcole> hno73, that looks like a good place for it.
<TheMuso> hno73: The problem with Orca is there is no interface.
<hno73> dholbach: It's Luke's ideas, but with critical comments from me :)
<TheMuso> jsgotangco: It is a lot more sticky than that.
<dholbach> hno73: i'm ready to package and include it anyway
<hno73> dholbach: yay, beeding edge!
<jsgotangco> i see
<dholbach> hno73: i feel that it should be exposed to people, so upstream can get feedback from users
<jsgotangco> true
<hno73> dholbach: yep
<dholbach> hno73: but we don't have to rely on it anyways
<jgrieves> agreed i would like to do some testing with it
<TheMuso> I won't repeat myself. Read that page, the top part at least to understand where I am coming from in regards to speech synthesis.
<hno73> right, but the more we push it the faster it will grow
<TheMuso> hno73: IMO it will end up being better than Gnopernicus.
<jgrieves> it has the ability to script correct?  gnopernicus does not
<hno73> TheMuso: Orca, you mean?
<TheMuso> jgrieves: Correct. It is also getting gnome-mag support as well.
<jgrieves> that's what make Jaws very powerful, if I understand corrrectly
<TheMuso> hno73: Yes.
<jgrieves> TheMuso i was un-aware of that, great
<hno73> and it scripts in python, which is perfect for us
<TheMuso> Indeed.
* jsgotangco reads
<dholbach> :)
<TheMuso> hno73: You will find that I have placed comments under your comments/queries in the synthesis proposal page.
<flint> dare we groach the holy grail here, speach recognition?
<mpt> rofl
<jgrieves> heh
<hno73> oh, I just now scrolled down :)
<jsgotangco> wow that was a mouthful
<jsgotangco> but nicely written
<dholbach> the kernel discussion (speakup) should be taken with BenC
<flint> oops /groach/approach/  heh
<TheMuso> Yeah. I will bet he won't like the code either.
<hno73> can alternative kernels go in Universe?
<dholbach> hmmmmmmm
<TheMuso> They could, but someone/people would have to rebuild them whenever security updates for mainline came out which is probably not a problem.
<dholbach> alternative kernels are problematic
<dholbach> because they require a lot of tending
<TheMuso> dholbach: That is also true.
<dholbach> (for each security fix, ...)
<TheMuso> dholbach: But if it is only speakup we are introducing, it is just a matter of getting mainline, adding speakup, changing name etc, and rebuild/upload.
<hno73> Yeah, I think we're looking at Launchpad features a year from now for that
<dholbach> TheMuso: generally, yes
<TheMuso> Luckily, speakup can be built as modules. If we can just get it included into the mainline, it won't get in the way for anybody who doesn't need it.
<dholbach> maybe we should have the discussion on ubuntu-devel@
<dholbach> so everybody else (we don't have here) could have his/her say
<hno73> sounds good
<TheMuso> The only problem with inclusion is that speakup is maintained in CVS of all places.
<jgrieves> if the kernel folks at ubuntu are anything like at IBM, they dont like anyone touching their kernel :)
<TheMuso> But it does keep up with current kernel development.
<flint> I am interested in the connection between IBM and speakup, and will look into it offline later
<TheMuso> Anybody else got any thoughts/suggestions? I understand that hno73 wants to break it down, but it is hard to do so because of the nature of the beast.
<dholbach> flint: thank you
<TheMuso> There is no connection between IBM and speakup AFAIK.
<TheMuso> I am on the speakup list and there has been no mention of such things.
<dholbach> i can only repeat myself: if there's something to package, so we can try it out, i can do that
<jsgotangco> go dholbach
<TheMuso> dholbach: If it si speech, it is my baby. :)
<jgrieves> sorry for the confusion flint 
<hno73> TheMuso: I will look at it again. These are complex questions.Let's continue on the wiki and mailing list
<TheMuso> Ok good idea.
<dholbach> ok
<dholbach> on the orca item: i will package it
<flint> TheMuso, gotcha, I thought that IBM had donated a lota the code to speakup
<TheMuso> It is one of those things that requires long explanations in emails etc, or face to face talk.
<hno73> ok, on to item 4
<dholbach> TheMuso: i think the spec/wikipage is a good start for discussion
<TheMuso> dholbach: As well as the list.
<jgrieves> anyway we are going to make the instlal more accessible?  
<jgrieves> for low vision?
<dholbach> jgrieves: i'm not aware of that at the moment
<jgrieves> posted @ list in resoponse to speakup
<dholbach> if so, we need a proposal
<hno73> UbuntuExpress could help there
<TheMuso> It is a LOT of work.
<jgrieves> its just tough for my friend steve who has 20/1700 who wants to install
<TheMuso> hno73: Yes, but there is still d-i to consider.
<jgrieves> and i dont particuarly like having my nose on the screen either :)
<dholbach> hno73: ++
<hno73> once you are booted in the live session, you can use a highviz theme
<jgrieves> and a magnifier?
<TheMuso> Ok how will a low vision user manage to read the blue and grey/white d-i screens?
<hno73> The great boot vs. desktop debate :)
<TheMuso> hno73: But it is getting to that state that could be a problem.
<dholbach> we need a proposal on how to fix that
<TheMuso> There is only one console magnification tool I know of, and it aint that great.
<hno73> Yeah it needs to be separate proposals and have more detail, but we sre bgetting there :)
<jgrieves> could u use speach for d-i stuff?
<TheMuso> Yes.
<dholbach> that's something we should discuss on the list too (once we have a proposal), because the people who would do the actual work are not here
<jgrieves> i mean if its just ininital stuff, i know steve woudln't mind, that would be pretty slick too
<TheMuso> dholbach: I am willing to help with speech installation/d-i stuff.
<TheMuso> I really should spec out my thoughts and theories on it.
<jgrieves> ok dholbach sounds good
<dholbach> that's cool
<jgrieves> dholbach accessibity-list?
<jgrieves> accessibility
<dholbach> yeah, and once we know where we want to go, we move it to ubuntu-devel@
<jgrieves> ok, Luke are you going to handle both angles on that?
<TheMuso> I will write my thoughts into a proposal/spec in the next day or so.
<TheMuso> jgrieves: Well I haven't seen UbuntuExpress yet.
<dholbach> i think that's something we should keep more in mind during our conversations: 1) what we need to spec, 2) who could do it, and 3) what we can do just now
<dholbach> TheMuso: nobody has :)
<TheMuso> I am only concerned with d-i atm, because the GNOME stuff will fall into place quit easily.
<jgrieves> oh, i haven't either, that's why i was hoping it was more of your experise :)
<hno73> TheMuso: do you think it's possible to split ghat page into at least 2 proposals though?
<hno73> TheMuso: ok, cool
<TheMuso> hno73: Yes I think so. Leave it with me.
<hno73> alright. pt 4
<TheMuso> What would access.ubuntu.com be useful for?
<hno73> If this page ws working now http://gentoo.warthogs.hbd.com:8003/ubuntu/
<jgrieves> docuemtnation, accessibility forums?
<jgrieves> blogs, development?
<hno73> It would show the same multi-theme functionality as this http://www.bbc.co.uk/accessibility/
<hno73> a place to build community and momentum
<TheMuso> Right.
<hno73> and draw in AT people from accross the FOSS world :)
<jgrieves> agreed the gnome-accessibility page is pretty bad
<jgrieves> imo
<jsgotangco> very bad imo
<hno73> Sun has a good AT team, but no major distro has a deducated user-driven project
<hno73> with mailing lists, forums, help pages, etc.
<TheMuso> hno73: And even if we do this, I doubt that they will try to do the same.
<dholbach> i think it's a nice idea, although i think that the team should be better organised, before "we go live"
<jgrieves> with ubuntu being pushed into schools with edubuntu, i think AT will become critical with students iwth disabilties
<TheMuso> Sun's team is more developer focused.
<hno73> It's sort of sticking our flag in the ground 
<TheMuso> dholbach: I agree.
<dholbach> i don't want to be off-putting (if that's the word)
<jgrieves> dholbach I agree
<TheMuso> Not at all.
<dholbach> but i'll get back to that in pt 6
<hno73> dholbach: no, I see your point. I'm happy to develop this non-live for a few months
<dholbach> cool
* dholbach hugs hno73 
<dholbach> :)
<hno73> we can create content in the current wiki, etc
<dholbach> yeah
<dholbach> i like the idea
<hno73> Timing is important :)
<dholbach> absolutely
<dholbach> point 5?
<TheMuso> I have just had another docs idea, but will bring it up later on the list/wiki.
<hno73> perhaps a month or so before dapper, when actually have some decent packages
<hno73> ok, pt. 5
<jsgotangco> shove all the docs to me :)
<TheMuso> jsgotangco: It is not actual writing as such, well it is, but it isn't if you know what I mean.
<dholbach> massachusetts :)
<jsgotangco> yes
<TheMuso> I will explain it later. A big email is needed for it. :)
<dholbach> flint will be eager to hear abou it
<dholbach> so who knows a bit more about the massachusetts situation?
* jsgotangco raises hand
<TheMuso> On the KDE accessibility list today, a member of the KDE a11y team posted a summary of the meeting that he was at with others involved in the whole MA ODF mess. The users weren't very interested in UNIX/Linux/GNOME/KDE accessibility. They don't want to change.
<TheMuso> I don't have permission to post it here, but I can ask, and put it up somewhere.
<TheMuso> Even though Office 12 will force change on them.
<dholbach> ok, so no ubuntu massachusetts love for now
<hno73> most people don't want to change, but free CDs that 'just work' can help
<jgrieves> haha
<TheMuso> Yes, but what office suite can we back that works? There are none that work perfectly yet.
<jgrieves> Luke, explain office 12?
<Riddell> TheMuso: you could link to it
<Riddell> http://lists.kde.org/?l=kde-accessibility&m=113391263909828&w=2
* kjcole shows age:
<TheMuso> Riddell: Ah yes, of course.
<hno73> OK, this was just a random idea for how we might make a splash, but perhaps we should let it pass
<kjcole> There was an old TV commercial in the states which had the tag line "You're soaking in it"... (I can elaborate later) but the point is Windoze users are already migrating slooowly.  Although Linux isn't accepted yet, Firefox, Thunderbird, The GIMP and OpenOffice are all starting to get a lot of airplay on Windoze boxes.
<hno73> We have more technical fish to fry ATM :)
<dholbach> hno73: technical fish :)
<dholbach> but i agree :)
<TheMuso> So do I.
* hno73 pimps TheOpenCD ;)
* jsgotangco pimps it too
<kjcole> hno73: Exactly.
<hno73> OK, pt 6?
<dholbach> ok
<dholbach> i created https://wiki.ubuntu.com/AccessibilityTeam
<flint> dholbach, thanks for the info let me persue it from here...
<dholbach> errr made changes to it
<kjcole> (Also The Orchard)
<dholbach> i think we as a team need a bit more organisation
* jsgotangco pimps the orchard powered by moin
<hno73> wooo
<dholbach> i don't want to be off-putting (as i said), but i think we need to focus more, on what we can actually do or change
<TheMuso> dholbach: Yeah indeed.
<jsgotangco> start cracking a whip to have focus?
<dholbach> that's why i added some pages below "Organisation", where i'd like you to add everything you can think of, to make the situation better
<hno73> Agreed
<TheMuso> We have done so much talking, and haven't really resolved anything conclusively yet.
<kjcole> dholbach: Organization? We don' need no steeeenking organization!
<dholbach> jsgotangco: not at all
* dholbach hugs kjcole 
<dholbach> kjcole: we need some rebels too, of course ;)
<jsgotangco> dholbach: a big stick sometimes helps
<jsgotangco> :D
<zakame> oooh
<dholbach> but i'm happy with our results so far
<dholbach> this is our 2nd meeting
<hno73> So, the wiki pages are a bit of a mess
<dholbach> and we were able to cover a lot of ground (in discussions) already
<jsgotangco> there is very big interest
<TheMuso> Yeah, but we need to get some plans in stone by the next 1 or 2 meetings at the latest.
<dholbach> absolutely
<hno73> shall we agree to move them all into that new structure?
<dholbach> so writing specs, breaking them up into small todo items would be great
<kjcole> dholbach: Having the sub-pages makes things easier to find.  I like it.
<hno73> we should be quite harsh on old material
<dholbach> and if we run into trouble, we should start writing upstream bug reports and monitor them
<dholbach> kjcole: thank you
<dholbach> hno73: you did an awesome job... we shouldn't purge them
<TheMuso> me and hno73 were playing with the idea of an a11y team about 6-12 months ago, but never really got it going till now.
<jsgotangco> nice
<kjcole> TheMuso: Critical mass.
* asw waves to accessibility team.  A friend of mine finished law at Harvard.  She has run/founded various disability rights non-profits. 
<hno73> dholbach is the super team-building guy :)
<asw> Are you guys into touch with Massachusetts?  
<asw> (state government?) 
<TheMuso> asw: We do know about it yes.
<asw> yes - but are you talking to them directly?  
<TheMuso> The problem is, there is nothing realy ready right now that can be presented as a perfectly usable option.
<jgrieves> exactly
<dholbach> i'm happy to serve as a proxy from the team to ubnutu and the packages; as you saw... i don't have as much time as i'd like to have (i.e. didnt write the meeting minutes yet), so i need advise on what to package, which fix to upload
<asw> TheMuso - Mark (Shuttleworth) or Mako or somebody high level? 
<linbetwin> I could help with the wiki. I've got a launchpad account and I can organize Jason's documentation in the wiki.
<dholbach> but i think we can really get a11y into a good shape
<TheMuso> dholbach: Happy to help.
<dholbach> TheMuso: thanks for your efforts
<TheMuso> asw: It is a matter of the tools not being usable for the masses yet.
<jgrieves> linbetwin i beleive jsgotangco will be working on that?
<asw> TheMuso - well, I might help get you guys some funding for bounties. 
<asw> Would that help?
<TheMuso> asw: Yes that would greatly help.
<hno73> asw: yes!
<dholbach> asw: we already agreed on writing detailed specs first :))
<linbetwin> jgrieves: ok
<dholbach> who didnt sign up for the mailing list yet? :)
<TheMuso> dholbach: Feel free to contact me if you need help. I am always on IRC< and you have my email address.
<asw> ok - just email me await @ genetics.med.harvard.edu when you have some spec ready.  I'll try and make it happen.  I'm almost always on IRC. 
<dholbach> TheMuso: thanks
<jsgotangco> great
<dholbach> i will write a quick summary of the meeting (i made notes of our decisions) this time :)))
<hno73> dholbach: so, in your oppinion is there anything in our wiki pages that qualifies as a decent spec yet? 
<TheMuso> dholbach: If I am idoling/sleeping, I should get it when I next check my IRC logs.
<hno73> Or is it still to vague?
* TheMuso is going to work on the speech proposals.
<dholbach> hno73: we should make a list of our Specs and discuss them on the mailing list (review them as a team again, before proposing them)
<dholbach> AccessibilityTeam/Specs?
<hno73> right
* dholbach creates it
<TheMuso> damn you are quick.
<jsgotangco> what do you we do with the other specs that were not touched during ubz?
<hno73> asw: cool. I'll email you.
<jbailey> jsgotangco: They can still be worked on, they just aren't likely to be high enough priority for Dapper.
<TheMuso> Examine them, and see if they can be reworked or included elsewhere I guess.
<hno73> I suspect they need to be focused further
<dholbach> ok add all specs to http://wiki.ubuntu.com/AccessibilityTeam/Specs - i linked it from http://wiki.ubuntu.com/AccessibilityTeam
<hno73> made more realistic in terms of time and effort needed
<dholbach> i feel we get better and better, as a team
<dholbach> you guys rock!
<hno73> dholbach: cool. We'll scrape the existing pages
<dholbach> i'm very happy
<jbailey> dholbach: Should they also maybe get linked through launchpad for tracking?
<dholbach> jbailey: can we tag them somehow?
<jbailey> I think teams can have specs.
<dholbach> jbailey: that sounds great
<dholbach> i will investigate in that
<dholbach> they should turn up here, i guess: https://launchpad.net/people/accessibility/+specs
<kjcole> Well, looks like things are wrapping up, and once again, I've missed two hours of paid work to do Ubuntu stuff.  So, time to run. ;-)
<dholbach> :)
<TheMuso> hahaha
<jsgotangco> heh
<dholbach> ok, we will track the specs in launchpad instead
<jsgotangco> i need not sleep
<dholbach> we can use AccessibilityTeam/Specs to add random chat on those specs
<TheMuso> Good idea.
<dholbach> i updated the wiki page
<TheMuso> Shall we defer the decision of next meeting time and day to the list, or shall we take care of that now?
<kjcole> Will move the SpecialNeeds page under the new tree... (and wrap it like a christmas present).
<dholbach> next year?
<hno73> Thanks everyone for being enthusiastic and constructive :)
<dholbach> kjcole: thanks for that
<hno73> now comes productive ...
<jgrieves> jsgotangco: email about documentation?
<dholbach> yeah :)
<jsgotangco> hno73: a minute after this is done?
<jsgotangco> jgrieves: yeah...
<dholbach> yeah, thank you, everybody
<jsgotangco> jgrieves: jgotangco@ubuntu.com if you need to correspond
<hno73> jsgotangco: yep
<jgrieves> jsgotangco thanks, looking forward to working with you
<TheMuso> I am free in two weeks at the same time, but I guess tohers won't be.
<jgrieves> works for me
<jsgotangco> same here
<dholbach> we can discuss next meeting's time on the mailing list, ok?
<hno73> works for me too
<hno73> k
<TheMuso> dholbach: Thats fine, on the list.
<dholbach> cool
<jsgotangco> our LP team needs a cool logo!
<kjcole> 2005.12.21? Same time? Works for me.
<dholbach> !
<TheMuso> Some of us can't see it. Don't bother. :)
<jsgotangco> muhahaha
<jbailey> jsgotangco: A big sad face.  It can slowly turn into a happy face as the situation gets better. =)
<jgrieves> TheMuso: lol
<dholbach> we have 18 members on the mailing list already!
<jgrieves> it better be huge whatever itis
<kjcole> The Scream (and we can add audio for those who cannot see it)
<hno73> a cool logo and a signature tune
<TheMuso> hahahahaha
<jsgotangco> jeezz
<hno73> ok, I think we're done :)
<jbailey> First spec: "Making the Launchpad accessibility team pages accessible." =)
<TheMuso> hahaha.
<jgrieves> jbailey pffft who needs accessibility, come on
<hno73> yeah, we need a cool bug #1
<dholbach> i have another idea: how about everybody adds an idea to the test plan on every day until christmas? :)
<TheMuso> I might approach BenC about speakup soonish. Depends on whether he is busy with other kernel stuff. :)
<dholbach> we'd be done with the test plan until christmas
<jsgotangco> bug #1 stop massachusettes?
<TheMuso> lol
<jsgotangco> the 12 days of a11y before christmas?
<hno73> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/AccessibilityTeam/TestPlans
<hno73> cool
<jgrieves> on the first day of Christmmas, TheMuso prepared for me, a gnome-mag package...
<hno73> Let's be specific
<dholbach> haha :)
<TheMuso> jgrieves: Good one.
<jsgotangco> 5 braile keyboards....
<TheMuso> 4 speech synths
<jgrieves> 4 speech synthesizers
<jsgotangco> haha
<hno73> stealing ideas from other projects, ,like gnome, is alowed
<jgrieves> TheMuso ROFL
<dholbach> you guys are great!
<dholbach> thanks everybody... time to go back home again
* TheMuso can't stop laughing.
<jsgotangco> ok before we actually create a song...
* jgrieves heads to IBM
<jgrieves> lol at Test Plans
* TheMuso decides to get some sleep.
* jsgotangco too
<jgrieves> i'm digging it
<jgrieves> thanks everyone
<dholbach> *wave*
<jsgotangco> TheMusoare you somewhere in au?
<TheMuso> jsgotangco: Yes.
<TheMuso> Sydney.,
<jsgotangco> TheMuso: ahhh i'm going to brisbane this weekend, maybe i can drop by to sydney before i head back home
<sivang> dholbach: this was a test plan meeting or a11y ? :)
<TheMuso> It is quite hot here atm.
<dholbach> sivang: an a11y meeting
<jsgotangco> 30C up?
<TheMuso> Yeah.
<jsgotangco> ok
<dholbach> its 2C here :)
* TheMuso has had his desk fan cranking for the last 18 hours or so. :)
<dholbach> see you later
<TheMuso> dholbach: See you later.
<jsgotangco> hno73: ping?
<hno73> jsgotangco: hi
<jsgotangco> hno73: regarding orchard, do we have a timetable for the next opencd release? 3.x?
<asw> hno73 - I plan to update http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:OpenDocument  and have added some links at http://www.freebiology.org/wiki/OpenDocument#Implications_for_people_with_disabilities
<jsgotangco> hno73: a todo list would also be helpful i don't know where to start except edit up orchard atm
<hno73> asw: Cool, thanks. I'll read.
<hno73> jsgotangco: Have you tried running it with the new skin?
<hno73> it's now live on orchard
<jsgotangco> hno73: yeah, its pretty good
<hno73> Unfortunately much of it is still in my head
<hno73> but it does work up there
<jsgotangco> well yeah, because i'm like "ok what's next" state at the moment
<hno73> If we go with a moin powered version (which it looks like) it will be 4.0, not 3.x
<jsgotangco> should i join the ml (is there one?)
<hno73> no, there isn't an ml, just the wiki
<flint> thanks being online.  Let me get a little up to speed.  I will be back next week at 14:30 UCT...  Regards,
<hno73> what do you want to get on with? ph translations?
<jsgotangco> no actual development ph translation is quite easy
<hno73> do you have a windows box?
<jsgotangco> i do
<hno73> perhaps you can try getting moin to run from the CD?
<jsgotangco> hmmm
<jsgotangco> with k-meleon?
<hno73> I haven't actually done that yet. I suspect it might try to write cache files and complain
<jsgotangco> i can try tommorow...
<jsgotangco> i see what you envision on the wiki...
<hno73> yeah, make a hybrid of tocd with kmelon and a moin desktop install on a CD
<hno73> It works for me in K-melon on the HD
<hno73> just need to deal with read-only issues I suspect
<hno73> we might need the moin people to disablecache writing and recompile the desktop edition
<jsgotangco> well the moin team is very approchable on stuff like this
<hno73> yep.
<jsgotangco> i'll experiment tommorow and see
<jsgotangco> hno73: how much space is left at the moment to possibly add more apps or nominate for inclusion?
<jsgotangco> hno73: i'll just email you tommorow morning, good night
<hno73> jsgotangco: thanks. I got distracted ...
<hno73> but, yes please suggest new apps. 
<jsgotangco> alright
<hno73> It looks like we'll need to squeeze out Ubuntu Live *cough*
<hno73> so there will be lots of room again
<jsgotangco> hmmm
<hno73> for docs, videos, etc.
<jsgotangco> ohhh
<jsgotangco> but we'll have to remove a lot of other apps like what happened in 3.1
<hno73> huh? No I mean If we go back to a pure Win-FOSS disc, we'll have like 400mb extra room
<jsgotangco> ahhhh
<hno73> people have actually been complaining about the linux part, asking for versions without it
* jsgotangco liked the livecd concept...
<jsgotangco> can we make 2 versions?
<hno73> and people are often distributing it together with ubuntu anyway
<jsgotangco> true
<Kamion> jsgotangco: remember that the Ubuntu live CD already has a bit of WinFOSS on it
<jsgotangco> hmmm
<jsgotangco> yes
<jsgotangco> maybe we can promote the opencd in the live cd?
<hno73> it would also mean less hassling of Kamion ;)
<hno73> I was hoping to have some video demos of Ubuntu made to put on the open cd
<hno73> as replacements
<hno73> less scaery and possibly more informative for real newbies
<jsgotangco> hmm we have the space :)
<hno73> just need to figure out how to record high quality video of the desktop
<hno73> I'd rathernot use flash
<jsgotangco> hmm vmware can do that
<hno73> and I'd like to be able to add voice to it afterwards
<jsgotangco> it does it in avi then we can convert to mpeg or mp4
<hno73> right, that's an option
<hno73> cool
<hno73> Do you want to have a go?
<jsgotangco> i can look into it, i downloaded a demo of vmware
<hno73> Do we need a script ? :)
<jsgotangco> maybe we can plot what we want to show first
<jsgotangco> :D
<jsgotangco> well if we're going to drop the livecd..then we'll have room for sure
<hno73> The ideal thing would be a 5 minute each into to Ubuntu, Kubuntu and Edubunt
<hno73> into to, yeah
<hno73> Running in a vlc gecko plugin directly in the CD browser
<hno73> We've run blender demos before with VLC on the CD, works fine
<jsgotangco> wow but that'll mean we'll have a pretty low resolution for it
<hno73> hm, true. could launch a separate window
<hno73> the vmware demo could run at a low display size though
<hno73> 800x600 at the most
<jsgotangco> hmm ok i'll check it out then, i gotta sleep
<jsgotangco> i'll email you or create a wiki page later
<hno73> night
<hno73> cool
<keyes> hello
<keyes> i'm just reading the logs from the CC
<Fujitsu> CC?
<keyes> (15h french time I must work :P)
<keyes> "CoummunityCouncil" ?
<Fujitsu> Oh.
<keyes> with the "automatix" problem
<keyes> <keyes> kassetra:  I don't speak a very good english but I know read a source code
<keyes> <keyes> and you don't
<keyes> <keyes> ^^
<keyes> <keyes> (or you'r blind)
* Kamion is trying to avoid hostility if possible; I think directing hostility at the forums administration is more likely than not to make them entrench into a position and refuse to budge, which I don't think will be helpful
<Kamion> I realise it's hard when tempers are high
<keyes> Kamion:  automatix is a fork of "my" script
<keyes> and it was violating the GPL
#ubuntu-meeting 2005-12-13
<mdz> good morning folks
<zul> evening
<Fujitsu> Noon.
<dieman> evening.
<dieman> cold evening.
<Fujitsu> Good 1PM.
<Fujitsu> Good lunch.
<BenC> good night :)
<ogra> (very very very early) mornig
<doko_> insane time ... ;-)
<ogra> still 5 min to go
<mdz> janeW: ping
<BenC> through me off that this is actually 9pm Wed for me
<zul> oh yeah i have to go tape lost...brb
<ogra> mdz, she asked if someone could call her if she doent appear
<ogra> *doesnt
* Kamion goes for coffee
* jbailey beams in.
* Keybuk adds another spoon of coffee to the pot
* ogra follows Kamion 
* dholbach grabs his tea
<BenC> fix me a cup too please?
<YukiIkyuta> w00t, tea.
<fabbione> hmmm 2 minutes.. right time for a smoke :)
* mvo prepares some tea
* mvo yawns
<janeW> mdz: pong
<janeW> *yawn*
<pitti> Hello
<seb128> hey pitti
<janeW> argh, whose idea WAS this!? ;)
<doko_> let's start before the coffee gets cold :-)
<pitti> coffee?
<pitti> how do you want to sleep again after coffee?
<seb128> pitti: stuff you drink to wake up on the morning
<janeW> pitti: via IV please ;)
<calc> janeW: its a good time in the US ;)
<seb128> pitti: who said something about sleeping *again*? :)
<mdz> waiting to hear from infinity, Riddell, Diziet and daniels
<Riddell> I'm here
<pitti> seb128: I won't stay awake after getting up at 3...
<janeW> calc: heh - not in ZA though (4am)
<mvo> pitti: we all know that seb128 does not sleep
<calc> janeW: exactly :)
<seb128> pitti: sissi :p
<pitti> right - "must ... package ... crack"
<seb128> lol
<calc> pitti: sorry that package name already taken :)
<Keybuk> infinity went to bed ~8 hours ago, so he might need waking up
<ogra> probably daniels could poke him
<ogra> of jdub
<ogra> *or
<mdz> sent SMS to infinity and daniels
<mdz> Kamion: have you seen Ian?
<Kamion> mdz: just about to phone him
<doko_> so, the australians take their 3pm tea break? ;-P
<mdz> Kamion: thanks
<Kamion> although his housemates will kill me tomorrow evening
<janeW> if infinity doesn't appear I will never accept his whining about bad meeting times again...
<Kamion> no reply
<jbailey> janeW: Aww, someone else woke you up.  I should've been quicker.
<jbailey> janeW: I can be a scary voice to hear on the phone at 2am. =)
<janeW> jbailey: lol, that
<janeW> 's what I thought, fear woke me up ;)
<jbailey> <voice style="raspy,deep">Hello, Jane.  We're waiting for you.</voice
<mdz> ok, we need to start without them
<BenC> let 'er rip
<mdz> let's go in spreadsheet order
<mdz> BenC
<daniels> actally, I'd like to go first
<BenC> ubuntu-server-kernel: in progress - 2.6.15-7.9 contains i386 server kernels. The kernels will be renamed in -8.10. Amd64 will get server kernels in -8.10 aswell (same style as i386 server kernels).
<BenC> preventing-hardware-support-regressions: not started
<BenC> testing-server-hardware: not started - Will start on this in coming week
<daniels> or second
<BenC> actually, preventing-hw-s-r will start this week too
<mdz> BenC: thanks
<mdz> daniels: ok
<mdz> (you're second on the spreadsheet anyway)
<infinity> Sorry I'm late.
* Keybuk mourns
<mdz> daniels?
<doko_> we know ;-)
<daniels> this week: fixed driver FTBFSes (build-depends), updated versions for RC3
<daniels> next week: continued work on RC3, hopefully get started on 'xorg' source package
<daniels> blocked: none
<daniels> x-roadmap: mostly there, just tracking continued version updates.  maintainer
<daniels> scripts still need some loving.
<mdz> daniels: thanks
<mdz> dholbach: next
<dholbach> inclusion-of-docs: another update, talked to doc-team about some changes
<dholbach> this week: DesktopTeam/TODO, DesktopTeam/NewSoftware, get-bug-number-sane-again, get-a11y-team-rolling, revu-weekend
<dholbach> next week: dont-make-seb-cry-over-bug-load, have-fun-with-gnome-2.13.3, pre-christmas-cleanup-bugday, meet slomo and siretart to discuss media-related test plan and media-bits of example-content
<mdz> dholbach: what's happening with power management configuration?
<ogra> mdz, mjg59 took it
<dholbach> mdz: i didnt do much since then, mjg59 already did an upload
<ogra> g-p-m works fine already
<pitti> dholbach: I can feel your relief :)
<mdz> janeW: did mjg59 send you any information about it?
<janeW> mdz: no not at all
<dholbach> i will try to reconfirm
<mdz> dholbach: if mjg59 is taking that over, make test plans your next priority
<dholbach> ok
<ogra> mdz, i'd call it nearly done 
<mdz> dholbach: thanks
<mdz> doko_: next
<janeW> should mjg59 be at these meetings if he is taking the goal?
<doko_> this week (including weekend):
<doko_> - toolchain-roadmap: amd64-biarch (still blocked); gcc* packages updated, tuning to pentium4 by default instead of i686 (i386 only); gij-4.1/gcj-4.1 packaging finished, pending upload; ant/java bugzilla work
<doko_> - toolchain-dapper+1: updated packages for test rebuild, now blocked by preparation of buildd's.
<doko_> - python-roadmap: deferred during last meeting, priority on ...
<doko_> - openoffice.org: updated to 2.0.1rc1 (ooo2, -l10n, -amd64, -helpcontent), fixed amd64 build, build native amd64 packages (suffix -experimental)
<doko_> openoffice.org-gnome: no reply from martink, will phone him this week
<doko_> problems: disk space on concordia, 1GB uploads from home suck.
<doko_> next week:
<doko_> - python-roadmap: python-central update
<doko_> - openoffice.org: bugzilla work; support work(?)
<Keybuk> janeW: it's 2am for him, and he doesn't work for us, it's a bit unfair to demand it
<mdz> janeW: Keybuk++, an email update would be reasonable
<fabbione> doko_: disk space on concordia will be fixed really soon (got feedback from Karl on the rt)
<janeW> Keybuk: right, but he should give an update anyway and/or attend when he can
<mdz> doko_: what's blocking biarch? glibc?
<jbailey> Yup
<doko_> mdz: yes, jbailey will upload soon
<mdz> jbailey: what's happening there?
<janeW> mdz: I'll mail him
<jbailey> mdz: It builds now, just the last packaging changes and one questions.  It's in my status report.
<mdz> ok 
<mdz> doko_: thanks
<mdz> fabbione: next
<fabbione> * server-candy: md5client in progress and it starts to look ok. code is very small and it is already partially integrated with d-i rescue mode. Mailing
<fabbione>  list is configured. Announce by tomorrow. More suggestions are coming from different people. Agreed with mdz to add a new spec as wishlist but had no 
<fabbione> time to write it.
<fabbione> * ubuntu-cluster: redhat cluster suite and ocfs2 updates (kernel and userland) that still requires a bit of testing. A few small pkgs still to upgrade 
<fabbione> before start looking into new stuff. More people to test for regressions would be good.
<fabbione> * probe-for-root-filesystem: WIP, start looking into it and the new udev does what we need. Discussion with Kamion/Keybuk/infinity about some minor pro
<fabbione> blems associated to the implementation, all sorted.
<fabbione> * boot-from-usb: blocked by probe-for-root-filesystem.
<fabbione> * merges: zlib - still pending libc6-i386-dev, util-linux - pending lamont to upload and test a new upstream version (and that might actually kill the 
<fabbione> need of the merge).
<fabbione> * last week: worked on specs. mails.. usual stuff.
<fabbione> * next week: keep going server-candy full speed. Expect to deliver the first useable bits of the md5client. Write the spec agreed with mdz. Try to do s
<fabbione> ome tests with the new cluster software.
<fabbione> * notes: thursday 15th i will be away almost all day travelling to the other side of DK to give a talk about Ubuntu. the 16th i will probably start lat
<fabbione> er than usual (it depends how late i will come back the 15th + dentist).
<fabbione> oh
<fabbione> installer-volume-manager is out of my report since it's implemented
<fabbione> JaneW: ^^
<mdz> fabbione: my feeling on probe-for-root is that we should do it by default in the installer if the root filesystem is on a USB device or similar, but otherwise default to the current behaviour
<mdz> fabbione: is that what you've in mind as well?
<janeW> fabbione: great
<Keybuk> probe-for-root won't work on ide devices
<mdz> Keybuk: why not?
<fabbione> mdz: no, we will do it where we can.
<fabbione> Keybuk: ?????
<fabbione> Keybuk: let's take this after the meeting
<Keybuk> k
<mdz> fabbione: I'm a little nervous about such an intrusive change to the default boot process
<mdz> fabbione: yes, let's talk another time about it
<mdz> fabbione: thanks for the updates
<fabbione> mdz: we can try and test.. and we can decide.
<mdz> infinity: next
<infinity> last week: lots more work on linux-restricted-modules, security updates, udev/kernel debugging, and buildd tracking.  Started work on thunderbird 1.5 as well.  Not much spec progress this last week, but:
<infinity> splash-down: should be uploading packages tomorrow to turn this feature on.
<infinity> next week: More work on usplash/initramfs-related specs, and more of the rest of my non-spec-related job tasks, I suspect.
<calc> is probe for root similar to what yaird is doing on 2.6.12+ ?
<mdz> calc: launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+spec/probe-for-root-filesystem or so
<calc> thx
<fabbione> calc: no.
<Evaso2> i doesn't know if could be useful for help also ubuntu but there is a good page about some statistics here: http://bjorn.haxx.se/debian/points.html
<mdz> infinity: there's a new nvidia driver out; please see that we get that in as well (either you or BenC)
<mdz> infinity: what of your remaining merges?
<infinity> mdz : I have the orig already rolled, just need to test the update on my girlfriends' computer.
<infinity> mdz : It fixes a mess of bugs on x86_64, it would seem.
<Kamion> Evaso2: please keep extraneous comments until after the meeting, preferably on a different channel; we have an agenda and a tight timescale here
<BenC> infinity: I can test aswell, have a GeForce4 here
<Evaso2> Kamoin: ok
<dholbach> infinity: nice, i can test it on x86_64 if you want
<infinity> mdz : thunderbird and php should be my only outstanding merges, unless I missed one, tbird is jumping to 1.5, php is happening when I upload all the security stuff later today.
<BenC> infinity: does it get things working on ia64 yet, because I can test that too
<infinity> dholbach : Thanks, I have a 6800GT on amd64, but if your card is different, the more testing the merrier.
<mdz> infinity: enigmail and initramfs-tools are also on your list
<infinity> BenC : No ia64 drivers.
<dholbach> infinity: excellent
<mdz> infinity: initramfs-tools may be bogus; I commented in bugzilla
<infinity> mdz : enigmail is blocked on tbird (no need to merge it right now), and initramfs-tools is more of a back and forth cherry-picking between the Debian maintainer and I.
<BenC> infinity: remind me later about my ia64-nvidia work, I have it setup
<mdz> infinity: please set the status whiteboard for those bugs accordingly
<infinity> BenC : Oh, yes, it works, but it's an old driver, not updated in eons, and we dropped support for it long ago.
<infinity> mdz : Check.
<BenC> no, I mean using the same source :)
<mdz> infinity: how does reducing-duplication stand?
<infinity> BenC : Oh, cool.  Talk to me after the meeting.
<infinity> mdz : No major progress to report this last week, unless pitti jumped some hurdles I'm not aware of, but it grinds on.
<infinity> doko_ : We will need help on punting python2.3 ASAP, BTW.
<pitti> no big ones, I was busy with other stuff
<mdz> infinity: how far are we from completing the parts which are in the existing spec?
<Kamion> I've been demoting the odd random thing to universe, but nothing major
<infinity> doko_ : So, I hope things are falling into place for that.
<pitti> mdz: I updated the wiki page, btw
<doko_> infinity: yes, scheduled for next week
<infinity> doko_ : Rock on.
<mdz> infinity: ok, the wiki page answers that question
<infinity> Oh!.. Missed MySQL 5.0 in my update.
<mdz> infinity: thanks
<mdz> janeW: please chase Ian tomorrow for an update
<mdz> jbailey: next
<infinity> mdz : Been evaluating MySQL 5.0, close to making a decision there, but I need a short followup with you about it.
<jbailey> * ToolchainRoadmap: Per last weeks meeting, libc-i386 coming this week for amd64.  Need to decide if we feel like providing both LinuxThreads and NPTL.  ia32-libs did, but this makes the packaging *much* messier.  lkh biarch fixed so it actually works.
<jbailey> * ToolchainRoadmapNg: After the glibc biarch, will start to evaluate glibc needs.  Want to start collecting feedback on dropping pre-i686 per  outstanding issues .
<jbailey> * LocalesThatDontSuck: No bugs received from the locales changes, my desktop is still in French.  Assuming that my stuff is finished mod latent bugs.
<jbailey> * Other: Still punting bugs to other people.  Need someone to take grub bugs by default.
<jbailey> * Merges:  glibc TBD after biarch is finished.
<doko_> infinity: db4.3 and oo2 still looks problematic
<janeW> mdz: ok
<mdz> infinity: ok
<janeW> I have an update from jdub
<mdz> infinity: grab me sometime when we're both around
<infinity> doko_ : Ping me about it post-meeting.
<janeW> jdub: example-content - Yeah, sorry - too much traveling to attend the meetings or get anything done on it. I plan to start doing stuff on it as soon as I return home from OSDC , and will hopefully get a huge chunk of it done before Christmas break.
<mdz> who can give some love to grub?
<Kamion> I've got half its bugs anyway, although many of them are throw-up-hands-in-despair material
* jbailey listens to the crickets.
<mdz> Kamion: or rather, forward-upstream material?
<jbailey> mdz: There is no upstream for grub1 anymore.
<zul> mdz: i can try to help with the grub stuff
<mdz> ugh
<jbailey> It's pretty much an abandonned codebase in favour of grub2.
<Kamion> what jbailey said, although actually there *was* a recent release
<ogra> mdz, mjg59 ? 
<mdz> zul: that would be a great help; there's a lot in bugzilla which needs review and consolidation
<zul> sure..
<mdz> jbailey: is any distribution actually using grub2 yet, though?
<jbailey> No.
<Kamion> we're on 0.97 now and I think it probably killed a few bugs in bugzilla, although we need to ping submitters once we have something coherent for them to test
<jbailey> I wouldn't recommend it for dapper.
<jbailey> I have vague thoughts of packaging it for universe for fun, but not targetting main at all.
<jbailey> I'm in regular contact with the grub2 upstreams.
<mdz> Kamion: ok
<mdz> jbailey: thanks
<mdz> Kamion: next
<Kamion> ubuntu-express-*, ue-*: Finally got Guadalinex work imported into bzr and started cleaning bits of it up. Started writing debconffilter integration code. Uploaded a debian-installer-utils change to build espresso-utils.deb, which saves me ripping out or reimplementing various tools.
<Kamion> ubuntu-express-bootloader: Made os-prober work outside d-i and created a .deb (all upstream). Have been thinking about the rest of the design and hacking on experimental pieces, but not much code yet. (I decided to tackle this instead of partitioning because it gives me quicker visible return on effort.)
<Kamion> cd-bootloader: gfxboot and syslinux uploaded; now I just need to write and install a theme and get loads of testing done. Spent this afternoon reading up on the language; noted that it isn't inherently tied to any particular video mode, which should help us a lot. Started hacking on an Ubuntu theme, cloned-and-hacked from the SuSE one.
<Kamion> misc: Clarified archive-copier question for language-pack-vs-support.
<Kamion> blocked: Flight CD 2 can't happen until somebody fixes casper to cope with d-i being initramfs now (which was blocked on getting live filesystems built, but I think we can do that now thanks to the mozilla-firefox-locale-all fix). I'll probably end up doing this myself.
<mdz> Kamion: have Mithrandir care for casper
<Kamion> oh, I don't have a next-week there - that's pretty much hammer casper into submission for initramfs d-i, do flight cd 2, do a quick gfxboot theme and get that in, keep going with ubuntu-express-bootloader
<jbailey> Kamion: Is it technical issues with initramfs'?  I can still be a resource since I've played with them alot.
<Kamion> and whatever else needs to be done
<janeW> Q, on going through the blocks/depends lists yesterday, many of the dapper goals depend on other goals, should we be tracking all those other goals on the spreadsheet (and project plan) too?
<Kamion> jbailey: not really, it just needs to be adapted from pivot_root and it's only very recently (today) that you've been able to get a 2.6.15 live CD far enough to do anything with it
<Kamion> mdz: ok, thanks
<mdz> Kamion: I think we should talk about ubuntu-express and see what chunks others can start on
<jbailey> Kamion: 'k.  Call if you need, though.
<mdz> thanks Kamion, Keybuk next
<Keybuk> udev-roadmap: been shaking out the big bugs, making good progress though and am feeling confident that the final product is a LOT better than breezy
<Keybuk> (ide drivers vs. ide-generic -- fixed with a kernel patch so the ide driver wins)
<Keybuk> (libata drivers vs. ide-generic -- fixed with a new script that only tries to load ide-generic if ROOT=/dev/hd* and it doesn't exist after probing for PCI controllers)
<Keybuk> (scsi drivers vs. the clock -- fixed with same new script that waits for root node to appear if ROOT=/dev/sd*)
<Keybuk> hardware-activation: no progress as been chasing udev bugs first
<Keybuk> streamlined-boot: fully tested and running on my laptop, now sysvinit is merged, will begin uploading the changes
<Kamion> mdz: fine, but I'm still sorting out the pieces that *everything* else will depend on so I'm not sure more cooks will help just yet
<Keybuk> network-magic: no progress.
<Keybuk> next-week: other udev problems, streamlined boot and hardware-activation.
<BenC> Kebuk: scsi drivers vs. clock, does that work for usb/ieee1394 drives for root aswell?
<mdz> Keybuk: will either of those workarounds be foiled by probe-for-root in any meaningful way?
<Keybuk> should do, yup
<Keybuk> mdz: that's the thing that foils probe-for-root on plain-old-ide
<Keybuk> because there's no way to know we might need to know ide-generic
<Keybuk> and we flat-out can't load ide-generic if it's sata/scsi
<mdz> isn't that a bug?
<Keybuk> so I've had to assume that probe-for-root is scsi-a-like
<Keybuk> you can call it a bug, but there's no way I can see to fix it
<Keybuk> ide-generic claims unclaimed ide devices
<Keybuk> modprobe ata_piix
<Keybuk> modprobe ide-generic
<Keybuk> usually, ide beats ata_piix to claiming the ide devices
<mdz> janeW: dapper-release-process is implemented
<mdz> Keybuk: ok, thanks
<mdz> janeW: update from Mithrandir?
<Keybuk> this actually affected breezy too, except as infinity and I found out, even an echo between the two modprobes is enough to tilt the balance the other way
<janeW> mdz: ok thanks
<janeW> mdz: no, no one sent me any updates this week...
<mdz> janeW: oh, right, he was on holiday
<mdz> mvo: next
<mvo> * 3rd party repostiories: only a bit work on gdebi (direct deb installs), no work done on gnome-app-install
<mvo> * suggest packages to install to provide missing apps: some work with zyga,  progressing (not hight priority for me currently)
<mvo> * unattended package upgrades: in the archive, needs testing, maybe backport to
<mvo>  breezy to get this testing (in a unoffical archive of course)?
<mvo> * upgrading from one ubuntu release to the next: actual dist-upgrade tool is making good progress, a sucessfull
<mvo>   upgrade from hoary to breezy was performed. still work to do on
<mvo>   the details and sanity checks 
<mvo>   (current gui: http://people.ubuntu.com/~mvo/dist-upgrader/)
<mvo> * package recommends: want to bounty daniel burrows (if possible)
<mvo> Next week
<mvo> - more work on the dist-upgrade tool
<mvo> - gnome-app-install work for the second part of the 3rd party packages
<mvo>   spec
<mdz> Kamion: please follow up on bootchart-udeb and guide that into main for tollef
<Kamion> mdz: already done
<mdz> Kamion: ok, thanks
<Kamion> mdz: just needs adding to the d-i pkg-lists, which is trivial; queued for next upload
<jbailey> mvo: What's the spec called for upgrading from one release to the next?  I'd like to read up on it.
<mvo> "AutomaticUpgrades"
<jbailey> Tx.
<mdz> mvo: once the tool is done, we still need the update-manager side to download and use the tool, right?
<mvo> mdz: yes, they share a bzr archive right now too
<mvo> it is designed to be independant and it can have multiple uis (kde would be possilbe as well)
<mdz> mvo: I'm not entirely sure about recommends; I think it would be too intrusive to switch the metapackages to recommends for dapper, and if we don't do that, we don't get any benefit from it
<mvo> but the downloading needs to happen somehow 
<mdz> mvo: thoughts?
<Kamion> if we get the code in now we can use it more comfortably in dapper+1 ...
<Kamion> (assuming it's sufficiently safe)
<mvo> mdz: difficult, I agree that it is intrusive, but it would solve a problem a lot of people complain about
<mdz> Kamion: dapper+1 seems likely to use smart
<Kamion> I see
<mdz> mvo: let's talk about it later
<mdz> mvo: thanks
<mvo> ok
<mdz> ogra: next
<ogra> * thin-client-sound: no work done this week, spec reviewed minor changes, needs working X on thin client for more realworld tests.
<ogra> * thin-client-local-devices: spec still in drafting. trying to get hold of sbalneav to make up a meeting with mdz.
<ogra> * thin-client-memory-usage: was waiting for the new initramfs/udev/kernel architecture for modlue blacklist testing, spec approved.
<ogra> * thin-client-faster-startup: finally below a minute http://people.ubuntu.com/~ogra/edubuntu/dapper-20051208-1.png , spec reviewed, minor changes.
<ogra> * gnome-screensaver-default-image: no work this week , still needs images.
<ogra> * general work: Xorg autodetection on thin clients: bug #20563 filed working with daniels on it (gdb session outstanding). requested ldm changes done locally, not uploaded yet, multiarch changes pending review. xscreensaver hack split (#3044) done locally. gnome-screensaver main inclusion report pending review, main inclusion planned before flight2. mknbi/etherboot problem: no work done yet. cdrom installable per today, ready for flight 2, waiting
<ogra>  for livefs to be build. hwdb-client bzr archive is up on http://people.ubuntu.com/~ogra/bzr-archive/hwdb-client/. edubuntu-artwork postinst changes started locally. grabbed some orphaned merges. held edubuntu workshop and talk at "essener linuxtage".
<ogra> * next weeks goals: major target is to get X up again on the thin clients, test mdz's suggestions for thin client sound, flight2 testing, ask sabdfl for his proposed space images for gnome-screensaver-default-image, upload new edubuntu-artwork, more hwdb-client work. inspect X autodetection on thin clients for possible speedups per mdz suggestion.
<mdz> ogra: let me know via email if there are specs ready for another review
<ogra> mdz, will do the requested changes tomorrow
<ogra> (and mail you )
<mdz> ogra: likewise for ldm (I merged multiarch btw)
<ogra> yay
<ogra> ldm is trivial
<ogra> just not tested yet
<mdz> ogra: what do you have planned for hwdb-client?
<ogra> code cleanup and bugfixes ...
<mdz> ok
<mdz> ogra: thanks
<mdz> pitti: next
<ogra> as per dapper policy, only polish
<pitti> language-pack-vs-support: DONE: spec completely implemented, thanks to mvo and Kamion
<pitti> langpacks-desktopfiles: DONE: applied zyga's gnome-desktop and glib2.0 patches, changed cdbs to make the necessary changes to the .desktop files, did some performance tests, updated spec; PLAN: changed spec was approved now, upload everything today, track package rebuild status
<pitti> automatic-printer-conf: DONE: started discussion with upstram; BLOCK: we need to find a sensible way of checking whether a given hal printer UDI is already configured in cups
<pitti> gstreamer-audio-backend: BLOCK: gstreamer 0.10 for creating the alsadmixsink
<pitti> reducing-duplication: DONE: readline4 and ucs-snmp made it to universe, infinity tested mysql 5.0; PLAN: convert all packages to use only 5.0's client libs, push 4.0 and 4.1 to universe
<pitti> merges: all DONE except for cdrecord (upstream version regression)
<pitti> rosetta-firefox-support, pmount-uber-alles, firewall, automated-problem-reports: no change since last week
<doko_> pitti: locales get's back a copy of the i18n data, so we don't need to change the packages relying on it for testsuites?
<pitti> doko_: no, not to locales itself; we didn't come to a conclusion in this discussion, and I further thought about it
<pitti> let's discuss this in #u-d today again
<mdz> ok
<mdz> pitti: thanks
<mdz> seb128: next
<pitti> (I don't think it makes sense to put the locales into an -all package at all)
<seb128> faster-gnome-startup: implemented (new fontconfig with mmap cache mentionned as an option is still beeing worked upstream so probably not for dapper, GTK icon cache specification has issues will be sorted for Debian but probably not for dapper neither, others points are done and work correctly)  
<seb128> hide-admin-tools-to-users: gnome-menus code changes done, waiting on mvo to update the desktop files on his packages, out of the implemented/working fine
<seb128> menu-revisited: implemented (may ajust some stuff according to users comments though)
<seb128> rhythmbox-ipod: I got an ipod this week
<seb128> video-playback: upstream 0.10 tarballs are available. They splitted the plugins to 4 source packages (main, good, bad, ugly), so most of the packaging (the binary split, etc) has to be reworked (the Debian maintainer has not really started on that yet). I'm working on that for 2 days, gst-plugins0.10/gst-plugins-base0.10 almost ready to upload. I've discussed the changes with lool (Debian maintainer) and send him some patches/pointed the new
<doko_> pitti: anything else than locales looks insane, ok, tomorrow ...
<seb128>  package and I'm waiting on his comments to be sure we pick the same split before uploading. He said he'll work on merging that this week so I'll probably upload those packages monday
<seb128> dapper-desktop-plan: there a first patch from lllmanulll (he who worked on the GnomePanel google bounty is working on that) for the session dialog changes which is beeing discussed on the ubuntu-desktop list
<seb128> .
<seb128> next week: keep packaging gst0.10, GNOME 2.13.3, dapper-desktop-plan
<mdz> seb128: I haven't noticed much of a speedup in GNOME startup; what happened to "so fast we don't need a splash"? ;-)
<seb128> euuuh :p
<Riddell> seb128: is gst0.10 likely to break amarok, kaffeine etc?
<pitti> btw, I talked to lool, he wanted to start with gst 0.10 now
<mdz> seb128: were you able to measure before and after the improvements and see what the gain was?
<seb128> I've not done benchmark but gconf is much faster when browser with gconf-editor by example
<seb128> s/browser/browsed/
<pitti> my startup time reduced from 40 to 35 seconds, or so
<pitti> (gdm login to final desktop)
<mdz> pitti: 35 seconds to login?
<mdz> ah
<ogra> pitti, how do you measure ? 
<ogra> stopwatch ? 
<pitti> ogra: yes
<ogra> k
<seb128> pitti: what about lool/gst0.10?
<pitti> on a clean profile, it's still 27 seconds
<ogra> will do the same here with my slow disk
<mdz> seb128: so the desktop files (other than mvo's) have been updated now, and hide-admin should be working for those?
<seb128> mdz: correct
<pitti> seb128: I discussed the dmix changes with him mainly, but he seems to be eager to start with 0.10 now, too
<mdz> great
<mvo> mdz, seb128: I'll do my stuff tomorrow
<mdz> seb128: thanks
<mdz> Riddell: next
<Riddell> This week: some days at desktop architects meeting, Portland.  Been doing merges and seed merges, revus, main inclusion requests and KDE security updates.
<Riddell> Next week: finish off merges, simplify-kubuntu
<doko_> Riddell: xine update to 1.1?
<Kamion> Riddell: how far is kubuntu-desktop from being installable? I haven't dug into its problems
<Keybuk> Riddell: you still have by far the largest number of outstanding merges of anyone :-/
<mdz> BenC: btw, if you're certain we don't want the new kernel-package, please close the bug WONTFIX
<Riddell> Kamion: mostly there now, pykde is the biggest issue
<Riddell> doko_: I see it on my merges, so I'll do it tomorrow
<Riddell> Keybuk: yeah, KDE 3.5 and the portland meeting got me behind, I hope to have them all done by the end of the weekend
<seb128> pitti: I've sent my gstreamer0.10 patch to lool 2 days for comment, he said it looks ok and he will merge it this week (he got some real work stuff to do before)
<mdz> Riddell,JaneW: we need to review the kubuntu spec situation
<janeW> mdz: meeting?
<mdz> janeW: yes
<janeW> ok
<mdz> that's the end of the spreadsheet; did we miss anyone?
<seb128> pitti: we will probably agree on the details this week and get that merged to Debian/uploaded to Ubuntu by monday
<mdz> I think that's all the status updates; since we have extra time, the floor is open for any discussion topics
<pitti> this locales issue maybe?
<mdz> only items which are relevant to all or most of the team, please
<pitti> hm, ok
<Keybuk> merges: I think everyone but Riddell has done all the non-blocked ones ... should we turn mom on again?
<infinity> Yes please.
<ogra> yay
<mdz> Keybuk: yes, but without filing bugs
<Keybuk> how would we keep track without the bugs?
<infinity> Even if we don't all have time for merge work, I'd like to know that there are outstanding merges to be done.
<doko_> mdz: yes, please change this meeting time (3hours earlier or 3hours later)
<mdz> Keybuk: can we set a reduced priority on merge bugs by default?
<Keybuk> mdz: sure
<jbailey> Thinking of bugs, do we know when Malone goes live for main?
<mdz> Keybuk: ok, let's do that instead then
<fabbione> mdz: but why without filing bugs?
<fabbione> or lower priority?
<mdz> jbailey: I need to follow up with bradb on that; don't have a status update 
<jbailey> mdz: Tx
<Keybuk> enhancement?
<mdz> fabbione: because we're not going to try to track merges on an ongoing basis; it's too much work
<Keybuk> or do you mean the Pn bit?
<mdz> we'll do another check close to UVF
<mdz> Keybuk: I mean Pn
<fabbione> mdz: ok...
<Keybuk> pick an n
<mdz> 3
<mdz> just something below the default
<mdz> or maybe P5, lowest
<ogra> dholbach, whats your feeling about malone for main as probably the person who works most with it currently ?
<mdz> doko_: we agreed on these meeting times in Montreal; everyone is inconvenienced only once per month and everyone has some meetings at reasonable times of day
* ogra finds 8am worse than 3am :)
<mdz> doko_: if you'd like to propose a change, please evaluate it in the context of everyone's time zone and post to ubuntu-devel for discussion
<dholbach> ogra: the mail- and the clickability-situation is what concerns most people, from what i've heard
<mdz> any other business?
<doko_> mdz: ok
<Kamion> what's the soyuz status?
<dholbach> ogra: i hope that defaults qa contacts will make that better
<seb128> dholbach: default assignment too
<mdz> soyuz is coming along pretty well; the publisher output is almost certifiable
<jbailey> Just like us? =)
<ogra> dholbach, thanks, i only use it to respond to the bugs mostly :)
<mdz> they're testing the uploader using all breezy packages
<mdz> (source packages only)
<mdz> once that's successful, the next test will be replaying all dapper source uploads and actually building them
<mdz> once all three of those acceptance tests have passed, we'll do the transition
<Kamion> thanks
<fabbione> mdz: ETA?
<mdz> (archive comparison for existing packages, upload test, upload+build test)
<mdz> fabbione: depends on how many problems are found
<ajmitch> mdz: will that change anything for us?
<mdz> could be as soon as this month if things go well
<infinity> ajmitch : In theory, it should be transparent to the average uploader.
<infinity> (except that build logs will happen differently)
<mdz> ajmitch: ideally no, but in practice I expect there will be noticeable changes ;-)
<Kamion> the sync process will probably be different (if not immediately, then soon enough)
<mdz> ajmitch: we'll post details in the announcement when we know more
<fabbione> mdz: for the sake of security, we will run katie in parallel for sometime?
<pitti> from what I have heard, yes
<fabbione> like if we need to roll back from one minute to another
<mdz> fabbione: yes, security uploads will be handled by katie until the point of being released, when they'll be published through soyuz
<pitti> for warty, hoary, breezy-security for now
<fabbione> mdz: i meant security for distro not -security ;)
<fabbione> like soyuz decides that dapper sucks and trashes everything
<infinity> Same thing, mind you.  If katie/wanna-build/buildd is running for *-security, we COULD move dapper back to katie if we had to.
<infinity> But hopefully, we won't have to.
<infinity> The infrastructure won't get destroyed willy-nilly, just cause.
<mdz> fabbione: we won't tear down katie, but I don't expect we'll want to build all of the packages using both soyuz and wanna-build or anything like that
<infinity> No, rebuilding would be pointless, but importing binary packages back into katie later, if we had to, isn't rocket science.
<fabbione> right
<mdz> it might be possible to copy the soyuz uploads (source and binary) to katie
<infinity> But here's hoping we don't have to.
<mdz> I'll follow up on that with kiko/kinnison
<infinity> Teething problems are expected, complete meltdown of soyuz isn't.
<mdz> ok, we're out of time
<mdz> thanks, everyone, especially you night-owls ;-)
* fabbione guuu's
<seb128> thanks mdz
<ogra> hehe
<jbailey> Thanks, Matt!
<ogra> thanks mdz 
<BenC> good night everyone!
* pitti crawls back into bed
<doko_> good night then :-)
<dholbach> see you later :)
<pitti> cu later 
<janeW> night
<seb128> see you :)
<fabbione> later guys
* mvo goes to bed, high time
* fabbione is too awake to go back to sleep
<fabbione> mdz: mind if i shift my hours a bit around today?
<mdz> fabbione: no
<fabbione> mdz: thanks
* janeW is going back to bed - later all
<fabbione> JaneW?
<ogra> night janeW 
<fabbione> is that ok with you too?
<janeW> fabbione: knock yourself out ;)
<jbailey> fabbione: Are you staritng now just to confuse us?
<jbailey> =)
<fabbione> jbailey: yeah :)
<fabbione> Janew: i am too awake
<jbailey> fabbione: And the whole distro team gets an extra two hours of sleep because Fabio showed up. =)
<janeW> fabbione: enjoy
<fabbione> ahahah
<janeW> bye
<jbailey> fabbione: Care to debug register allocation in klibc with me on ppc? =)
<jbailey> fabbione: I have a bug that doesn't occur when I strace it or run it through gdb.
<fabbione> jbailey: noi don't :)
<jbailey> fabbione: Bah. =)
<jbailey> fabbione: I'm trying to prove that it's ak ernel bug atm. =)
<fabbione> ehhe
<mako> asw: hey
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:robitaille] : Agendas: http://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingAgendas | Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: http://people.ubuntu.com/~fabbione/irclogs/ |  14 Dec 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 16 Dec 16:00 UTC: Desktop team
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:robitaille] : Agendas: http://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingAgendas | Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: http://people.ubuntu.com/~fabbione/irclogs/ | 14 Dec 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 15 Dec 08:00 UTC:  Dapper Development Status | 16 Dec 16:00 UTC: Desktop team
<shawarma> When's the next techboard meeting?
<YukiIkyuta|dinne> 0800 hours after the third midnight in the Swedish plains of Edgar.
<shawarma> ...
<shawarma> Great. Could you put that into the calendar on the fridge?
<YukiIkyuta|dinne> Sure.
#ubuntu-meeting 2005-12-14
<Lewix> hi 
<Lewix> <Lewix> I have a laptop , toshiba M40/M45 serie and  I've downloaded the iso dvd of ubuntu. when I boot and type enter there's things that loads up then my screen goes black. as well with the dvd screen as with the install. I tried linux vga=771 with the live dvd because i want to be sure that it works before installing and I all seem to work till I got a erro message about xserver
<bob2_> this is a not a support channel
<Lewix> k
#ubuntu-meeting 2005-12-17
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:robitaille] : Agendas: http://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingAgendas | Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: http://people.ubuntu.com/~fabbione/irclogs/ | 14 Dec 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 15 Dec 08:00 UTC:  Dapper Development Status | 16 Dec 14:00 UTC: DocTeam | 16 Dec 16:00 UTC: Desktop team
<Ju> Hi all !
<Ju> is the communitycouncil mailing list active ? I've mailed it without user not found error but it is not listed here  : http://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/
<Kamion> no
<Seveas> it's not a public list
<Kamion> it's not created yet as far as I know
<Ju> ok.
<Seveas> and apparently not active yet :)
<Kamion> at least my RT entry hasn't been closed
<Ju> is there anyone reading it ? ;-)
<Kamion> kind of hard when it doesn't exist
<Kamion> it would go to four people including me; I have not received any mail to it
<Ju> ouch... subject France - Eucd ?
<Kamion> no
<Kamion> announcing it was a mistake
<Ju> damn, mdz told me to use this one...
<Kamion> I'll poke elmo tomorrow about it
<Kamion> tell me your e-mail address and I can mail you when it exists
<Ju> anyway to who i can send a request about a very dirty law in France, I would like to know if ubuntu-fr can officially sign an online petition
<Ju> ok,  ju@ubuntu-fr.org
<Ju> and add a banner on its website
<Ju> I can paste my mail on pastebin if you want...
<Kamion> please not now, I'm about to go to bed
<Seveas> ah - the dreaded copyright law?
<Kamion> I've added an entry to my to-do list to check with Mark/Jane tomorrow
<Ju> ok Kamion thank you !
<Ju> yep Seveas, it will go for all european country.... The local french version is very bad...
#ubuntu-meeting 2005-12-18
<rob1> does anyone know when the next CC meeting will be?
<rob1> week 51..
<Kamion> 20th December, time TBD
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:Kamion] : Agendas: http://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingAgendas | Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: http://people.ubuntu.com/~fabbione/irclogs/ | 14 Dec 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 15 Dec 08:00 UTC:  Dapper Development Status | 16 Dec 14:00 UTC: DocTeam | 16 Dec 16:00 UTC: Desktop team | 20 Dec, time TBD: Community Council
<rob1> ok, thanks Kamion 
<pitti> hi
<ogra> ho
<Keybuk> ok
<Keybuk> let's get this show on the road
<Keybuk> sabdfl is at dinner, so won't be coming
<Keybuk> and mdz has buggered off on holiday
<mjg59> Ok
<mjg59> So what have we got lined up for us today?
<jdong> the crowd ain't as big compared to CC meetings, huh?
<jbailey> Keybuk: So as in, you don't have quorum anyway?
<Keybuk> is Jani Monoses here?
<janimo> here
<Keybuk> jbailey: we've always considered two a quorum
<jbailey> Ah, cool.
<Keybuk> janimo: you've proposed yourself for main upload privileges
<janimo> yes, for xfce/xubuntu packages
<janimo> mainly for that
<Keybuk> would you like to make your case
<Keybuk> well, I can certainly say you've been doing a lot of work on them
<Keybuk> have you been doing much work with the existing MOTU team?
<janimo> I'd like xubuntu to be supported and CDs built for it for dapper
<janimo> Keybuk, not much MOTU work recently
<janimo> only xfce related uploads
<Keybuk> how would you like to improve xfce's integration with ubuntu?
<fabbione> Janimo: the point is that once you get main upload privileges, you can theoretically upload everything
<janimo> it is well integrated already, but a few more things to add
<fabbione> there is no distinction at the moment
<janimo> add gdm and make it a CD
<janimo> fabbione I know
<janimo> I have uploaded an informationa XubuntuDapperRoadmap spec today with more details
<mjg59> janimo: So, what does Xubuntu involve?
<janimo> ubuntu standard + x +xfce packages
<janimo> + a few other apps
* ogra would welcome xcfe in main as well as someone who cares for it like janimo does, in edubuntu the question for a slim desktop comes up a lot
<janimo> right now we have xubuntu-desktop
<janimo> the mmain gripe of usres is missing a CD install
<janimo> that would be alot easier if all packages were in main
<mjg59> janimo: Is the aim to be as well-integrated as Ubuntu?
<janimo> mjg59, rigth
<mjg59> That is, should Xubuntu aim to fulfil the same specifications?
<janimo> easy to use, always free things like that you mean? sure
<janimo> or technical specs?
<fabbione> janimo: both
<mjg59> janimo: I was thinking more in terms of NetworkMagic, power management, that sort of hting
<janimo> well then answer is yes for both 
<fabbione> it needs to match the same quality and consistency
<janimo> yes, I intedn to work on power mgmt
<Keybuk> how would you plan to get others to help with the packaging work?
<janimo> and most of the related specs as I cab
<janimo> Keybuk, it is not much packaging involved, as we use debian packages
<mjg59> I certainly think that the aim for anything in the *ubuntu namespace should be to provide roughly the same level of user experience, but it sounds like you're aiming for that
<janimo> I intend to work with them
<Keybuk> have you had to make many modifications to the packages yourself so far?
<mjg59> janimo: Have you been working with them so far?
<janimo> mjg59, yes aiming for that but xfce is not the same user experience as gnome/kde even upstream so that transaltes here too
<janimo> Keybuk, yes a few
<mjg59> janimo: Sure, I realise that there are limitations
<janimo> to packaging and to code in packages
<Keybuk> so you feel you know your way around Debian/Ubuntu packaging?  have you done much else besides XFCE?
<janimo> Keybuk, some of the changes are not yet in debian, some are not upstream xfce either
<janimo> but pushing them actively
<ogra> there are even heavy technical differences between edubuntu/ubuntu (i.e. edubuntu installs a bunch odf server stuff which doesnt comply with the "no open ports" directive)
<ogra> so i wouldnt see the binding to tight 
<janimo> Keybuk, I have been a MOTU since about before Hoary and worked on some merges back then
<janimo> but since then it is mostly xfce related changes or new packages
<janimo> all starting with xubuntu-
<mjg59> janimo: Is there a reasonable xfce userbase right now?
<Keybuk> dholbach, ogra: have you worked with janimo much?
<janimo> some in universe some only in REVU
<janimo> mjg59, I don;t know how to estimate that :)
<ogra> Keybuk, yes, for a while, he's a longstanding member of MOTU
<mjg59> janimo: Heh. Well, do you get bugs filed?
<janimo> I'd say 10%-15% of linux users?
<janimo> duno honestly
<janimo> yes
<janimo> but xfce has a _lot_ less bugs then gnome/kde even upstream, it is a lot simpler
<mjg59> Sure
<Keybuk> anyone else got any questions for janimo ?
<mjg59> But it sounds like there are people using the packages, and from what ogra says it sounds like there would be good reason to have them in main
<janimo> mjg59, yes
<fabbione> janimo: are you familiar with security?
<janimo> I get the occasional thank you eamail from time to time , with the request for CD images :)
<fabbione> if so how much?
<fabbione> how much can you commit for it?
<ogra> mjg59, absolutely ... we had a lightweight target for hoary already which wasnt completed, xubuntu might fill that gap
<janimo> fabbione, not much besides occasional peeks at bugtrack but I am cautios
<pitti> btw, there has been one XFCE related vulnerability so far, in 2000
<janimo> fabbione,commit for security?
<janimo> pitti, another code base xfce3
<janimo> so 0 actually :)
<pitti> janimo: right, what I wanted to say is, that's damn few
<fabbione> janimo: if xubuntu enters main, it also means providing -security support. are you ready to commit to it?
<janimo> shame on them
<ogra> heh
<janimo> fabbione, yes both secutiry and updates
<ogra> according to pitti that might be a boring job :)
<janimo> indeed :)
<pitti> janimo: does xfce ship with any suid programs for doing hardware magic? does it handle hardware at all?
<janimo> no suid programs
<pitti> janimo: like automounting, networking, etc.?
<jdong> pitti: I believe it uses g-v-m to handle those things
<Keybuk> my one comment is that we work very much as a team, and so far you've been mostly working alone on these packages -- so once in main, you'll need to both help others work with your packages and also be ready to sponsor uploads for the MOTU ... are you happy with that?
<janimo> for automounting we will use ivman now kubuntu does not
<janimo> jdong, no ivman
<jdong> ah, ok
<jdong> been quite a while since I've used XFCE
<janimo> Keybuk, I am happy
<ogra> Keybuk, he worked a lot with crimsun
<ogra> in a two man team
<ogra> (its not the one man show it seems o be)
<Keybuk> mjg59: any further questions?
<pitti> that's twice as big as our edubuntu and kubuntu teams :)
<janimo> Keybuk I have been working alone since MOTUs are very busy with merging and their other teams
<ogra> pitti, yeah 
<janimo> crimsun is swamped with multimedia related work
<mjg59> janimo: It would be good to see work stick fairly closely with the Debian packagers, but I think you've said that you plan to work with them already
<sivang> is this TB meeting?
<janimo> mjg59, I just got an alioth acount today to get svn commit access
<pitti> sivang: yes
<janimo> to help pushing our changes up
<mjg59> janimo: Cool
<mjg59> Keybuk: Ok, I think I'm done
<Riddell> janimo: xfce has a file manager I believe.  does it have a web browser, music player, console? (to pick the apps I have open just now)
<pitti> janimo: that's good, so the Debian maintainers acknowledge you as a co-maintainer then?
<Keybuk> ok, your vote?
<janimo> Riddell, I think we'll use thunar as  the default fimemanager
<mjg59> +1 from me
<janimo> we'll have firefox, xfmedai, xfce4-teminal
<Keybuk> +1 from me also
<Keybuk> Janimo: welcome aboard
<pitti> congrats janimo 
<janimo> thanks all :)
<ogra> YAY, welcome janimo 
<janimo> nice to join the team
<ogra> :)
<mjg59> Ok, moving on? How many developer candidates have we got today?
<janimo> I'll probably help out with other main work if needed
<Keybuk> Johnny Mast, are you here?
<ajmitch> janimo: good work :)
<Keybuk> Brandon Hale, are you here?
<janimo> pitti, yes they are ok with me working close woth them
<ogra> Keybuk, tseng is already in ubuntu core
<Keybuk> you know, I thought he was
<ogra> (brandon hale)
<Keybuk> didn't mentally match the name
<sivang> welcome janimo , to main? :)
<Keybuk> jdong: I can see you're here
<jdong> :)
<janimo> sivang, yes :)
<Keybuk> ok
<Keybuk> jdong: you've applied to join the MOTU team
<sivang> janimo: big congrets :)
<ogra> is vuntz here ? 
<jdong> Keybuk: correct
<Keybuk> so, I guess, first off, what have you been working on so far and what would you like to work on?
<jdong> Well, my work is primarily concentrated in Backports, and Backports does the most work in Universe
<jdong> as a result, sometimes the Backports team needs to have changes done in Universe and such
<jdong> currently, the Team has Mez and slomo who are on MOTU
<mjg59> jdong: Is that "the most work in Universe" or "does most of its work in Universe"?
<jdong> and at times that's not enough
<vuntz> ogra: I'm here, but I'm going away for ~30 minutes right now
<ogra> vuntz, just because you are on the list 
<jdong> mjg59: a combination of both: Most requested packages are in Universe, and most "issues" we find are also stemming from Universe packages
<Keybuk> right, but you don't upload the resulting backports to universe?
<jdong> no, I don't
<mjg59> jdong: Your phrasing seemed to suggest that backports did more work in universe than any other group
<ogra> Keybuk, the process for backports is a bit different ...
<jdong> mjg59: maybe I'm having a bad day with phrasing things :)
<mjg59> jdong: Ok, as long as that's not what you meant, then fine :)
<ogra> Keybuk, elmo just triggeres them if jdong tested locally ...
<jdong> and ogra has been nagging for me to join MOTU too :-D
<jdong> ever since day one
<Keybuk> ogra: so you'd support jdong's application?
<mjg59> jdong: So how would being an MOTU change things for you?
<ogra> jdong, but i can hardly judge your packaging skills ...
<ogra> mjg59, if changes have to be made to a package to backport fine, someone has to touch the package ...
<jdong> mjg59: Well, first off I hope that it would mean less of me bitching at others... and I can do work without relying on others
<ogra> mjg59, so it would be a requirement to have one of the backporters being able to do that, Mez is rarely here recently, he wanted to take that role
<jdong> ogra: I'm pretty experienced with packaging, but not with the specific Debian tools used to upload and such
<mjg59> jdong: Well, we'd prefer there to be no bitching regardless of the situation...
<jdong> mjg59: I suppose _nagging_ would be a better word :)
<mjg59> Heh. Sure.
<jdong> mjg59: I'm known as the one who walks in to #ubuntu-motu just to ask for stuff to be done
<ogra> the thing is that if a package needs minor changes, they have to be done (uploaded) by someone with upload rights ....
<ajmitch> jdong: who has worked with you on packaging changes that can vouch for those skills?
<ogra> so that will either put a burden on MOTU or we get and uploader from the bp team
<jdong> ajmitch: that's the thing -- I haven't really needed to do anything of that magnitude with MOTU before
<jdong> ajmitch: usually the types of changes Backports needs are very minor
<jdong> i.e. changing a version on b-d's, etc
<ogra> and i'd like to see jdong in that role since he merely leads backports ... but you would have to work a bit with the motu to prove your skills i public
<ogra> s/i/in
<jdong> ogra: yes, absolutely :)
<Keybuk> ogra: would you preferred he worked with you before being granted upload rights?
<jdong> ogra: and I'll try to spend time working on other stuff in MOTU too
<\sh> g
<ogra> Keybuk, not particulary with me personally but with the MOTU team so he can get some votes for his knowledge
<\sh> evening...too late
<ajmitch> hi \sh 
<Keybuk> ok, I tend to concur; I'd prefer jdong to work a bit more with you guys so you feel confident about his skills first
<ogra> Keybuk, i simply cant judge his skills ince i never used any backport in ubuntu yet
<Keybuk> mjg59: what do you think?
<ogra> jdong, that would be rad :)
<mjg59> I'm broadly in favour, but I'd agree with Keybuk - some more time doing general MOTU work would be good
<\sh> I agree with ogra...I think it's better to have an overview about his skills in common...
<\sh> for this, he has to come more often to -motu
<Keybuk> jdong: would you mind working a bit more closely with the MOTU team, and come back at the next TB meeting when they should be able to praise your skills
<jdong> Keybuk: sure
<jdong> I'll try to be in #ubuntu-motu more often
<jdong> and follow what the guys there want me to do :)
<Keybuk> ok, we'll postpone to then; your work looks great so far to me, but we're very much a team distro, so come to the next TB meeting with praise from the MOTU team for your work so far there
<jdong> ok, cool
<Keybuk> ok ... now is anyone else here waiting for universe upload privileges who hasn't made it to a meeting since they proposed themselves?
<\sh> jdong: work with us on the rest of the merges...and bug fixes has to be done soon. I think we agree to help you out with the uploads..so we can see your work 
<Keybuk> jbailey: are you fit and rebooted, or do you need a bit more time?
<jbailey> Keybuk: I'm rebooted.
<jdong> \sh: absolutely I need much more packaging experience for MOTU :)
<Keybuk> ok, Mirror Status, the floor is yours
<jdong> I just want to take the first step today :)
<ogra> jdong, thats really great, i'm happy you do that :)
<mjg59> jbailey: Can you explain what the problem is, and how we should deal with it?
<ogra> (you know how log i nagged you for it ;) )
* jbailey looks to see which order he put them in.
<jdong> :)
<jbailey> mjg59: The mirrors occasionally have trouble, running out of space, or failing to update, etc.
<jbailey> mjg59: Right now the only way to get this information is by pinging James or Karl directly.
<jdong> more than occasionally
<ogra> yes, the us mirror seems to be a PITA 
<elmo> jbailey: you realise there's LP specs about this, right?
<jbailey> That means that getting this information is limited by timezones / availability of two people.
<jbailey> elmo: Right.  But that means that it's 6 months to a year away.
<elmo> jbailey: says who?
<jbailey> elmo: I don't remember seeing it on the priority list for dapper.
<jbailey> The problem is right now when we know there are mirror problems, that information is not exposed in a useful way.
<Keybuk> so what would you propose instead of the LP spec?
<elmo> when was the last time US mirror was broken just out of interest?
<elmo> because AFAIK, it hasn't broken since we started pushing it with a two stage push
<jbailey> elmo: Mmm.  Right before ubz I think?
<elmo> and that was ? weeks? ago
<elmo> jbailey: ...
<jdong> elmo: I got some md5sum mismatches fairly recently (2 weeks?)
<jbailey> elmo: This was intended to come up at the last TB meeting, which I couldn't make.
<Keybuk> tbh, I don't see anything here for the TB to decide
<Keybuk> there's a LP spec for it, which is the long-term solution
<jbailey> Keybuk: mdz refered me to the TB
<Keybuk> and the short-term solution appears to be "ask elmo"
<jbailey> Right.
<elmo> jdong: dude, you tried to convince me you had md5sum mismatches for breezy on archive.u.c
<jbailey> I'm saying that short term solution isn't always useful.
<Keybuk> which is true for most of our archive management right now
<jdong> elmo: Maybe my weeks are off :)
<jbailey> Right now that request is that we ask the archive administrators to keep a status board of some sort on mirror status so that known issues can be looked at right away.
<jdong> elmo: but the first few weeks of Breezy's release
<elmo> jbailey: why on earth are you going to the TB in the first instance with this?
<ogra> which would be pre ubz
<jbailey> elmo: mdz refered me to the tb.
<Keybuk> imo, mdz should have referred you to elmo
<jbailey> Who ultimately makes the decisions about how these issues are handled?
<elmo> the same person who ultimately makes all decisions?
<Keybuk> mdz, sabdfl, elmo, etc.
<jbailey> So it was probably refered here for discussion at a time when all the parties are generally available.  
<elmo> jbailey: in any event my point is that you didn't even try asking the people who currently run the mirrors
<elmo> which is, umm, nice
<elmo> really
<jdong> I gotta run, be back in like 15-20 minutes, hopefully in time :)
<Keybuk> mjg59: anything from your corner?
<jbailey> elmo: My contact for distro things when driven by customers asking me questions is always mdz.
<elmo> jbailey: don't be obtuse
<mjg59> Without knowing why mdz thought it should be brought up here, I'm not sure we can do too much
<elmo> if a customer asked you about gcc, you'd go to doko, not mdz
<mjg59> Can we punt this until mdz is around?
<jbailey> elmo: Actually, no.  I'd email mdz.
<jbailey> Unless it was somthing I thought could be answered very quickly.
<Keybuk> yeah, that's my best suggestion right now ... wait until mdz is back, to see whether he had any reason for bring it here
<elmo> well maybe the TB should look at how you communicate with the distro team then ... 
<Keybuk> until then, jbailey: 1) make sure the LP spec meets your needs
<Kamion> presumably the idea of stuff going through mdz is so that mdz can manage how much distro team time is taken up by escalated support
<Keybuk> and 2) buy elmo some flowers, and ask him nicely?
<jbailey> Kamion: Yes, as well as tracking and stuff.  Before he was a bit surprised that I had been asking the distro team for things and that he hadn't been aware of it.
<Keybuk> ok, so the advisory list thing
<Keybuk> you're suggesting some kind of process that involves compiling a list of packages in *-updates and what they chance?
<Keybuk> uh, change?
<Keybuk> similar to the existing security stuff?
<jbailey> Right - not necessarily a list, but an explanation or advisory by email as to why updates are coming out.
<pitti> oh, interesting idea
<jbailey> The notification applet stuff isn't always sufficient to explain what's going on, or that it's coming.
<pitti> but isn't apt-listchanges something that should come close?
<Kamion> Could amber be modified to do -updates?
<jbailey> So in some ways it can look like a security update that showed up without an advisory.
<Kamion> (speaking as an occasional -updates approver, I don't want to have to construct those things by hand)
<jbailey> Kamion: Right.  I don't have any suggestions as to the machanics of this.
<jbailey> Certainly I'd be willing to construct these for the -updates that I do and add them to the mix somehow.
<Keybuk> from my corner, yes something like this would be nice, propose it on #ubuntu-devel and rally people round to figure out how to do it
<pitti> well, for updates we maybe don't need md5sums and such; but still some template would be nice for version numbers etc.
<mjg59> Right. I think it's reasonable to tell people why we're giving them an update.
<jbailey> pitti: I'm not sure how a -update is different than a security patch in that sense.
<Keybuk> so +1 from me, sounds like a nice thing to do
<pitti> jbailey: well, as long as amber generates these, I don't particularly care
<jbailey> pitti: In any event we're delivering them a package, so it would be nice to have the usual trappings.  md5sum is the easiest part to generate. =)
<Keybuk> mjg59: ?
<mjg59> +1
<Keybuk> ok
<Keybuk> jbailey: if you could lead discussion and implementation for it, go for it
<jbailey> No problem, i'll follow that through.
<pitti> Kamion: how are -updates uploads published?
<Keybuk> next thing on the agenda is me ...
<pitti> Kamion: certainly there is a girl for it which could be modified to spit out template emails?
<Keybuk> this is probably a no-brainer, but I didn't want to go ahead and make such a change without at least checking with some other people first
<ogra> Keybuk, breaking the wrold again ? 
<jbailey> Mmmm.  Modified girl.
<jbailey> (sounds ike an ingrediant)
<Keybuk> currently there's no useful place during boot to put things like pid files, control sockets, dhcp leases, etc.
<pitti> /var/run isn't useful?
<Keybuk> /var/run should be that useful place, but it's either on the root filesystem and not yet r/w or on another filesystem altogether
<mjg59> (See NFS-root cases)
<Keybuk> it's fine once in rc2.d, but in rcS.d it's sub-optimal
<jbailey> Keybuk: Is this one beast to add to your movemount collection?
<jbailey> +more
<Keybuk> so my proposal is to make /var/run a tmpfs that's always available
<pitti> Keybuk: when would you mount that?
<Keybuk> which would mean anything writing into a sub-directory of it would need to make that sub-directory if it doesn't already exist
<Kamion> pitti: no it's just kelly -z
<Kamion> pitti: which is just the thing that does accepted->installed
<Keybuk> pitti: probably in the initramfs, and moved to /root/var/run
<pitti> Keybuk: if you mount it in initramfs, then a later mount of /var in fstab would shadow it, right? and mouting it late would defeat the purpose?
<Keybuk> then if not already mounted, in the first init script
<Keybuk> and in the mountall script, if we mount /var as something else, so a move dance to keep it there
<pitti> heh
<Keybuk> so that's it really, is this sane or should I go find some other solution?
<pitti> for the records, we already fixed one or two packages to create /var/run/<package subdir>, but it certainly needs some more fixes to have complete coverage
<pitti> LSB does allow for packages to rely on the existence of /var/run/directory, so it could give us some hard time with keeping up
<pitti> (especially for universe)
<pitti> but I didn't actually count the number of affected packages
<pitti> the fix is trivial, though
<Keybuk> *nods*
<mjg59> Keybuk: So the main downside is that we may need to alter some packages that expect subdirectories to be persistant?
<\sh> pitti: if this can be done after UVF...no problem with me ,)
<pitti> \sh: it's a trivial bug fix, sure
<Keybuk> mjg59: right
<pitti> \sh: just a mkdir -p and a chmod/chown in the init script
<mjg59> Keybuk: Hm. I worry a bit about it being a semantic change.
<\sh> pitti: so we need a list of all packages who are bringing in some init.d scripts...
<mjg59> Keybuk: Do we have any idea how many packages it would break, and have you discussed this with Debian at all?
<pitti> \sh: no, packages which put stuff into /var/run
<pitti> \sh: and either ship a directory in /var/run, or create it in postinst
<Keybuk> in main, I've found only one or two that it breaks, and the Debian maintainer of both seemed happy to accept the patch
<fabbione> there are also packages that have /var/run/ in the code...
<Keybuk> most of them already have patches to make it work
<mjg59> Keybuk: Ok, sounds good
<pitti> sounds like 'early breakage'
<\sh> I need an aspirin, a tea, some drugs, and a list of packages for later..
<sivang> \sh: this can add up to the list of remaining merges, or just add this when working on a merge :)
<sivang> s/add/patch/
<Keybuk> ok, any further business?
<Keybuk> jdong: are you here?
<\sh> sivang: if you have such a package to merge ... do it now...or after uvf and when all the merges are done
<ogra> <jdong> I gotta run, be back in like 15-20 minutes, hopefully in time :)
<ogra> that was 20min ago
<Keybuk> yeah, sadly I've got to run in a minute too :-/
<Keybuk> the answer to jdong is the same as jbailey, make sure the LP spec is right
<Keybuk> several already exist, from what I can see
<ogra> i thought Mez worked on one at ubz
<Keybuk> ok, end of meeting then
<Keybuk> the next TB meeting will be in 4 weeks time I guess
<Keybuk> as two-weeks is the 27th
<mjg59> Wow. That was swift.
<\sh> well...I think there is no need for a new process...because elmo is processing all the request when he has time...and thats pretty often..
<Kamion> oh, is there time for me to slot in one question?
<ogra> yup... and LP is near (somehow)
<Kamion> forgot to put it on the agenda
<Keybuk> meh, go on then
<jdong> were my minutes too long?
<Kamion> if not, no worries
<Keybuk> is it quick?
<Kamion> so Debian is in the middle of killing off base-config
<Kamion> and moving the entire installation to the first stage
<Kamion> this would kill off a fair few of my bugs, so I'm inclined to follow suit
<pitti> that sounds nice actually
<Kamion> my question is whether this is an utterly insane thing to do for dapper?
<Keybuk> sounds nice to me, we've already done some of that?
<Kamion> yes, but not the big long package installation step
<Keybuk> ultimately I think that's possibly your call ;)
<jdong> Keybuk: you can drop my item from the agenda, I don't think it'll be necessary as of now
<Keybuk> you'd judge better than anyone else whether it's doable
<Kamion> the downside is that it means that it takes longer to find out whether your newly-installed system actually boots
<jdong> btw elmo thx very much for pushing those backports through today!
<ogra> and it will slow down the installation, no ? since you do everything from CD ?
<Kamion> Keybuk: ok, I thought it was a big enough change that I ought to bring it up, but if that's your feeling then fine, I'll judge by how quickly the code matures upstream
<Kamion> ogra: no, actually it'll speed it up because we can throw away archive-copier
<ogra> ah, k
<ogra> yes, thats a 10min step less ...
<Kamion> there'll be some extra seeking back and forward, but I think it'll be dwarfed
* sivang wil be waiting to test those images :)
<Kamion> righto, thanks
<\sh> ok..going back to sleep away my cold
<pitti> ok, seems we are done?
<jdong> \sh: what a coincidence, lol
<\sh> jdong: well...after 2 years really avoiding a heavy illness...I think it's time to have a much more nicer cold, coming along with fever and body pain
<jdong> \sh: intestinal flu with me here.... while suffering deep muscle stress... does not go together well
<\sh> ok...cu later...when I can't sleep anymore :)
<jdong> have fun
<sivang> \sh: get well!
<Ju> Hi all !
<shawarma> what the... was there just a TB meeting?
<shawarma> "just"..
<vuntz> ogra: ping?
<ogra> vuntz, ?
<vuntz> I'm not sure of the list you were talking about :-)
<ogra> ubuntu developers in launchpad
<vuntz> ah
<vuntz> I thought I asked to be removed from it
<ogra> (MOTU)
<vuntz> can you remove me from the list?
<ogra> i dont think so
<ogra> i have no admin rights there.... only th TB has
<vuntz> okay
<vuntz> I'll try to not forget to ask someone from the TB, then
<vuntz> thanks
<\sh> vuntz: why do you want to removed we need more people :)
<vuntz> because I don't have time to join the group :/
<dholbach> vuntz: one day we'll have the post of a king for motu too... :)
<ogra> dholbach, we dont even have a crown yet ....
<ogra> still a long way to go 
<dholbach> yeah
<ajmitch> we have the face of motu, so why not a crown?
<ogra> ajmitch, make one, we can make it a trophy for the biggest amount of uploads for one release :)
<ogra> indeed dholbach needs to get it belated first for his 400 hoary uploads ;)
<ajmitch> ogra: I'd better get working ;)
<ajmitch> 400 now?
<ogra> wasnt it 400 back then ? 
<dholbach> oh nononono
<ajmitch> 200 iirc
<dholbach> vuntzZz: is the king
<ajmitch> I didn't even do that for breezy
<ogra> dholbach, for next release
<dholbach> he gets the crown
<ogra> he already has the cool hat
<ogra> where should he wear the crown ? 
<slomo_> on top of the hat :)
<ogra> hehe
<\sh> oh damn..I'm sick I shouldn't do merges
<\sh> *coughcough*
<ajmitch> yeah right
<ajmitch> we shouldn't take over -meeting too much ;)
<azeem> I thought this *was* a meeting
<ajmitch> it used to be
<azeem> couldn't be bothered to look up which one exactly
<azeem> ah
* ogra goes away from this channel to not catch to many viruses from \sh in here 
#ubuntu-meeting 2006-12-11
<lotusleaf>              
<BlueT_> @schedule
<Ubugtu> Schedule for Etc/UTC: 12 Dec 15:00: Loco Team | 12 Dec 16:00: Community Council | 13 Dec 12:00: Edubuntu | 14 Dec 16:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 19 Dec 20:00: Technical Board | 20 Dec 20:00: Edubuntu
<BlueT_> @schedule taipei
<Ubugtu> Schedule for Asia/Taipei: 12 Dec 23:00: Loco Team | 13 Dec 00:00: Community Council | 13 Dec 20:00: Edubuntu | 15 Dec 00:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 20 Dec 04:00: Technical Board | 21 Dec 04:00: Edubuntu
<nixternal> @schedule chicago
<Ubugtu> Schedule for America/Chicago: 12 Dec 09:00: Loco Team | 12 Dec 10:00: Community Council | 13 Dec 06:00: Edubuntu | 14 Dec 10:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 19 Dec 14:00: Technical Board | 20 Dec 14:00: Edubuntu
<licio> @schedule Sao_Paulo
<Ubugtu> Schedule for America/Sao_Paulo: 12 Dec 13:00: Loco Team | 12 Dec 14:00: Community Council | 13 Dec 10:00: Edubuntu | 14 Dec 14:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 19 Dec 18:00: Technical Board | 20 Dec 18:00: Edubuntu
#ubuntu-meeting 2006-12-12
<Hobbsee> @schedule sydney
<Ubugtu> Schedule for Australia/Sydney: 13 Dec 02:00: Loco Team | 13 Dec 03:00: Community Council | 13 Dec 23:00: Edubuntu | 15 Dec 03:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 20 Dec 07:00: Technical Board | 21 Dec 07:00: Edubuntu
<nixternal> heh
<nixternal> @schedule chicago
<Ubugtu> Schedule for America/Chicago: 12 Dec 09:00: Loco Team | 12 Dec 10:00: Community Council | 13 Dec 06:00: Edubuntu | 14 Dec 10:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 19 Dec 14:00: Technical Board | 20 Dec 14:00: Edubuntu
<nixternal> lovely, means i have to set an alarm on my off week ;(
<Hobbsee> those seem relatively sane for you
* Starting logfile irclogs/ubuntu-meeting.log
<zarul[brb] > the meeting will be about 6 hours from now Am I right?
<dholbach> @schedule berlin
<Ubugtu> Schedule for Europe/Berlin: 12 Dec 16:00: Loco Team | 12 Dec 17:00: Community Council | 13 Dec 13:00: Edubuntu | 14 Dec 17:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 19 Dec 21:00: Technical Board | 20 Dec 21:00: Edubuntu
<zarul[brb] > @schedule kuala lumpur
<zarul[brb] > @schedule kuala_lumpur
<Ubugtu> Schedule for Asia/Kuala_Lumpur: 12 Dec 23:00: Loco Team | 13 Dec 00:00: Community Council | 13 Dec 20:00: Edubuntu | 15 Dec 00:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 20 Dec 04:00: Technical Board | 21 Dec 04:00: Edubuntu
<fernando> @schedule brazil
<fernando> :P
<fernando> @schedule sao_paulo
<Ubugtu> Schedule for America/Sao_Paulo: 12 Dec 13:00: Loco Team | 12 Dec 14:00: Community Council | 13 Dec 10:00: Edubuntu | 14 Dec 14:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 19 Dec 18:00: Technical Board | 20 Dec 18:00: Edubuntu
<gnomefreak> @schedule new_york
<Ubugtu> Schedule for America/New_York: 12 Dec 10:00: Loco Team | 12 Dec 11:00: Community Council | 13 Dec 07:00: Edubuntu | 14 Dec 11:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 19 Dec 15:00: Technical Board | 20 Dec 15:00: Edubuntu
<cbx33> hi who's going to be at the meeting later?
<Hobbsee> cbx33: green aliens?
<cbx33> eh
<cbx33> heh
<cbx33> I need to give my support for someones membership application to someone
<Hobbsee> is there a communitycouncil@u.c?
<Hobbsee> or something?
<Hobbsee> there is for the tech board
<cbx33> hmmm not sure
<cjwatson> community-council@lists.u.c
<cbx33> thanks
<GazzaK> @schedule london
<Ubugtu> Schedule for Europe/London: 12 Dec 15:00: Loco Team | 12 Dec 16:00: Community Council | 13 Dec 12:00: Edubuntu | 14 Dec 16:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 19 Dec 20:00: Technical Board | 20 Dec 20:00: Edubuntu
<GazzaK> 4pm - woo
<cjwatson> you're welcome to mail comments there
<cbx33> thanks cjwatson
<tonyyarusso> cjwatson: Do you have any idea whether membership applications will be considered this time around, and if not, when they may?
<cjwatson> I imagine they will, but I've retired from the CC so I'm trying not to think about it too much (though I'll still have to be there this time because the nominations haven't been done yet)
<Hobbsee> cjwatson: who are the CC people now?  when are they decided?
<tonyyarusso> cjwatson: All right, I'll still try to be present (and awake) then.  Sev suggested they likely wouldn't b/c of the length of the agenda.
<cjwatson> Hobbsee: since the nominations haven't happened yet, I do not know
<cjwatson> tonyyarusso: Seveas is not (yet?) on the CC
<tonyyarusso> cjwatson: No, but is closer connected than myself ;)
<cjwatson> it's possible we might only get through some of the members, but I think it would be a bad idea to skip them altogether
<tonyyarusso> Agreed
* tonyyarusso sets alarm
<tonyyarusso> Do you know if they're still doing the "paste an introduction into the channel" format, or just linking to LP and wiki pages?
<tonyyarusso> (Sorry for the slew of questions, I have a tendency to latch onto people who are "in the know" when I find them at times.)
<cjwatson> tonyyarusso: I don't know
<tonyyarusso> cjwatson: Okay, thanks anyway!
<cjwatson> tonyyarusso: it would be best not to do that with me with respect to the CC
<tonyyarusso> cjwatson: Because you're term is up or am I being annoying?
<cjwatson> the former
<cjwatson> I'm just a lame duck CC member :)
<GazzaK> quack quack
<tonyyarusso> Fair enough :)
<tonyyarusso> lol GazzaK
<GazzaK> (sorry had to)
<gnomefreak> tonyyarusso: the new member process is part of todays agenda but as it stands i believe the paste your intro is still happening until it is decided what the new process will be
<tonyyarusso> gnomefreak: Roger that
<MehdiHassanpour> .
* gnomefreak wonders if we are doing members today as we have a fairly busy agenda today and alot of new members
<tonyyarusso> @schedule toronto
<Ubugtu> Schedule for America/Toronto: 12 Dec 10:00: Loco Team | 12 Dec 11:00: Community Council | 13 Dec 07:00: Edubuntu | 14 Dec 11:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 19 Dec 15:00: Technical Board | 20 Dec 15:00: Edubuntu
<BlueT_> @schedule
<Ubugtu> Schedule for Etc/UTC: 12 Dec 15:00: Loco Team | 12 Dec 16:00: Community Council | 13 Dec 12:00: Edubuntu | 14 Dec 16:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 19 Dec 20:00: Technical Board | 20 Dec 20:00: Edubuntu
<BlueT_> @schedule taipei
<Ubugtu> Schedule for Asia/Taipei: 12 Dec 23:00: Loco Team | 13 Dec 00:00: Community Council | 13 Dec 20:00: Edubuntu | 15 Dec 00:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 20 Dec 04:00: Technical Board | 21 Dec 04:00: Edubuntu
<Seveaz> gnomefreak: definitely not all members
<Seveaz> gnomefreak: also note that the new member procedure is changing and may be changed retroactively for current candidates
<zul> @schedule montreal
<Ubugtu> Schedule for America/Montreal: 12 Dec 10:00: Loco Team | 12 Dec 11:00: Community Council | 13 Dec 07:00: Edubuntu | 14 Dec 11:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 19 Dec 15:00: Technical Board | 20 Dec 15:00: Edubuntu
<beuno> @schedule argentina
<effie_jayx> beuno try buenos aires
<beuno> @schedule buenos aires
<beuno> @schedule buenos_aires
<Ubugtu> Schedule for America/Argentina/Buenos_Aires: 12 Dec 12:00: Loco Team | 12 Dec 13:00: Community Council | 13 Dec 09:00: Edubuntu | 14 Dec 13:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 19 Dec 17:00: Technical Board | 20 Dec 17:00: Edubuntu
<beuno> ;)
<beuno> good, I got the time right
<effie_jayx> @schedule caracas
<Ubugtu> Schedule for America/Caracas: 12 Dec 11:00: Loco Team | 12 Dec 12:00: Community Council | 13 Dec 08:00: Edubuntu | 14 Dec 12:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 19 Dec 16:00: Technical Board | 20 Dec 16:00: Edubuntu
<zarul> so when is the meeting gonna start?
<apokryphos> zarul: see /topic
<apokryphos> 16:00 UTC
<dinda> 16 minutes
<cjwatson> no, use 'date -u' to find out the current UTC time
<cjwatson> you're an hour off
<zarul> lol
<Ma1kel> utc = gmt +2?
<cjwatson> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UTC
<zarul> god, it's late at night here, gotta to wake up early tomorrow, I wish the meeting will be 3-4 hours earlier, will be easier for Asian people like me
<zarul> gmt and gmc is not much different
<zarul> *gmc/UTC
<Ma1kel> Time zones around the world are expressed as positive or negative offsets from UTC. In this role, UTC is also referred to as Zulu time (Z) (see Time zones below). UTC is often referred to as Greenwich Mean Time when describing time zones, although strictly UTC's atomic time scale is only approximately the same as GMT.
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:Ubugtu] : Current meeting: Loco Team | Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 12 Dec 16:00 UTC: Community Council | 13 Dec 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 14 Dec 16:00 UTC: Ubuntu Development Team | 19 Dec 20:00 UTC: Technical Board | 20 Dec 20:00 UTC: Edubuntu
<Ma1kel> was the loco teams meeting cancelled?
<BlueT_> zarul: agree with you, but there're many people doesn't live at Asia. (i'm form taiwan, it's 22:51 here ToT)
<zarul> I hope CC meeting start earlier them....
<zarul> *then
<apokryphos> it won't, no
<zarul> yeah...or perhaps the council can do something like, having someone to handle the asian session..
<BlueT_> zarul: haha, but it's a globle meeting
<zarul> yeah
<BlueT_> 2 minutes later
<Seveaz> jono!
<jono> heya sevea
<jono> heya Seveaz
<BlueT_> Seveaz: y0
<Seveaz> how about a meeting ;)
<BlueT_> Seveaz: waiting for someone to start
<Seveaz> BlueT_: that's why I jelled at jono
<Seveaz> He's the community master
<Seveaz> hey ryan!
<ubuntugeek> hey hows it going
<nixternal> oy
<Seveaz> ola
<beuno> hey ubuntugeek, I'm Martin, from the Argentina LoCo
<jono> ok
<effie_jayx> beuno,  :D
<jono> sorry, was delayed
<jono> so, who is here for the meeting?
<ubuntugeek> hey martin, hows the forum working out
<zarul> me
<morgs> me too
<Seveaz> me (as spectator)
<dinda> dinda, aka Belinda from Texas and Ubuntu Women
* BlueT_ Matthew Lien, leader of Ubuntu-TW
<looksaus> me
<ubuntugeek> me as me
<jono> cool
<BlueT_> me
<beuno> great, seems it's the most active LoCo on there by far, everyone es pretty happy about having a spanish forum
<beuno> me
* imtheface Andy from Indonesian Team
<effie_jayx> me
<jono> is joey here?
<imtheface> hi all
<ubuntugeek> Great, i am pretty pleased how well the loco forums are doing there.
<effie_jayx> Efrain Valles for the Venezuela Team
<morgs> Morgan Collett for the South African Team
<jono> seems joey is not around
<mruiz> Miguel Ruiz -> Chilean Team
<beuno> we're pleased too  ;D    -  I might take a few minutes of our time later if you can spare it about a small bug on the tagging system
<ubuntugeek> sure no problem..
<jono> ok, who suggested the loco communications item?
<effie_jayx> ME
* beuno Martin Albisetti from the Argentina LoCo
<looksaus> jono, before we start, it might be interesting to to make a summary of what was discussed (either through gobby or one volunteer)
<jono> looksaus: this meeting is logged
<looksaus> something that can be easily digested by al locoteams list readers...
* beuno volunteers
<jono> if someone wants to summarise it, that would be great
<beuno> I can right it up in spanish and english
<looksaus> beuno, that would be splendid!
<jono> in fact, it would be awesome to have regular meeting summaries posted to loco-contacts after each meeting
<jono> thanks beuno
<beuno> np
<jono> so, loco communication
<jono> who added that?
<effie_jayx> me
<effie_jayx> I added InterloCo comunication
<jono> what do you mean by that effie_jayx?
<effie_jayx> ok... to avodi fragmnetation... I think more contact from other loCo within a region is a good way
<jono> right, so what kind of region?
<effie_jayx> jono,  lok at south america
<jono> in a country? in a continent?
<mruiz> for example, comunication between latin american LoCo
<effie_jayx> ajam
<looksaus> you mean because of the language barrier?
<mruiz> yes
<beuno> same speaking language LoCo's would be a good example
<looksaus> (towards using the EN speaking list)
<jono> there has been some discussion about uniting loco teams at a language level as well as a country level
<beuno> they might tend to duplicate translation efforts
<jono> the difficult thing here is that there is no single rule we can apply for how things are divided up
<jono> for example, in the US, it makes sense to divide things at a state level
<jono> but it would not make sense to divide the UK at a country level for example
<effie_jayx> sure but as a whole latin america is a big group of peope...
<effie_jayx> and in the past week
<beuno> maybe some centralized place wher everyone can put what they're working on
<beuno> and what they've done
<effie_jayx> the teams have joined in a very nice way but without folloing a blueprint or previous experience
<looksaus> there is of course a real danger of fragmentation in the sense of
<BlueT_> beuno: sounds nice
<looksaus> spanish speaking teams growing into a kind of isle
<beuno> that way before starting a proyect you can check out if someone is already puruing it, and help them out
<looksaus> that doesn't communicate enough with the non-spanish speaking world
<effie_jayx> looksaus interesting that you mention
<looksaus> how would you stimulate these teams to communicate with the rest of the world?
<effie_jayx> I am new to the loCo team work
<beuno> that would be a great idea, group LoCo's by language and have some sort of intercomunication between them, someone willing to translate what's going on
<effie_jayx> and I am here representing my loco
<mruiz> these are latin america teams: Argentina, Bolivia, Colombia, Chile, Costa Rica, Guatemala, Espan~a, Mexico, Peru, Venezuela
<beuno> but also, Spain, which happens to be in a different continent
<effie_jayx> when I brought the question to jono
<jono> so how do we think we can improve communication?
<jono>  it seems to me that geographically close teams should start out be just engaging in communication
<nejode> i'm with you effie_jayx
<effie_jayx> jono,  we need to follow a path to better communication within ourselves (loco teams in lat america)
<effie_jayx> and we turned to you to ask if there is a
<jono> effie_jayx: how many teams are in latin america?
<effie_jayx> aprecendet...
<effie_jayx> around 11
<effie_jayx> and we need to keep ourselves oriented to what the loCo's in europe are doing
<looksaus> effie_jayx, would it make sense to create comm infrastructure based upon common language, rather than geography?
<jono> right, so there 11 teams in the same refion?
<jono> region
* beuno just found out the spanish team seems to think they englobe all latin america   "Spain and Latin America"
<looksaus> because that seems to be the barrier not to participate directly in the general loco list right?
<effie_jayx> looksaus,  part of it... yes...
<beuno> I agree, language is the barrier, not geographical location
<jono> yes
<BlueT_> agree
<jono> the real key here is language
<beuno> I count 8 LoCo teams listed that speak spanish
<mruiz> the main idea is to coordinate between latin american LoCo
<jono> I think we need to think of ways in which we can unite similar languages but maintain their own location
<beuno> spanish-speaking LoCo's  ;D
<jono> we don't want language connections to fragement the general community though
<looksaus> jono, maybe if you remember the discussion we had last week
<looksaus> we can grab some solution from there
<beuno> jono, that's why I think maybe we can have ppl in charge of comunicating to the other languages
<effie_jayx> jono, we want to help out send the message...
<beuno> summing up every 2 weeks or something like that
<effie_jayx> jono,  nejode and I come from the venezuela team...
<effie_jayx> jono, and there ... people have just begun to discover all the LoCo team related stuff.
<BlueT_> jono: just like ubuntu-zh includes ubuntu-tw, ubntu-cn and ubuntu-hk ?
<effie_jayx> new vs arpoved and the benefits of being aproved
<looksaus> like... if you create a mailing list for spanish speaking teams, add a header or footer to lure users to the main international list
<beuno> I don't think that you *need* to have all spanish speaking ppl in one mailing list
<effie_jayx> and the benefits of being talknig to people that have the same issues all around the world ... not to invent the wheel again
<jono> sorry reading up
<jono> I am in the office today, keep getting called
<looksaus> beuno, I'm just suggesting how a communications channel between spanish speaking locoteams should be closely connected to the international one
<beuno> looksaus, ooh, sorry
<effie_jayx> looksaus,  most certainly ... we will look into ir
<beuno> like have *regional* LoCo meetings
<beuno> and then International
<looksaus> there might be more ways than this header/footer idea for a mailing list
<mruiz> time ago, I proposed my Spanish Planet Ubuntu idea (https://launchpad.net/products/ubuntu-website/+ticket/1664) to improve comunication between latinamerican LoCo Teams
<beuno> so one representative from each region (language) meet
<looksaus> mruiz, very good idea!
<effie_jayx> looksaus,  you are right... and I hope you can understand we want to all stay put to the international comunity
<looksaus> of course, just thinking about ways to do so
<effie_jayx> looksaus,  but not as 1 from chile ,, 2 from venezuela, 3 from argentina ) but as a group
<jono> right
<jono> so we need to divide this problem into the language and country level
<jono> brb phone
<effie_jayx> so we can better pass down the information that comes from the mothership (locoteams) :D
<beuno> yes, sounds like the most reasonable
<lophylap> oh, loco meeting.. damn, totally forgot about that one
<effie_jayx> so
<jono> back
<zarul> lol
<jono> backok
<jono> I think there is a very obvious need for language connections
<effie_jayx> looksaus,  I am really intereste in your insight and this is a question that came up 2 weeks a go in the LoCo teams presentaion by elkbuntu
<jono> it makes sense for those with similar languages to work together
<beuno> maybe all same speaking language teams vote for 1 representative among them
<jono> but isnt that just a translation effort?
<BlueT_> all the chinese language LoCo has already solved this problem :p
<jono> BlueT_: how?
<looksaus> i think not just a translation effort... lots of people don't have the skills to express themselves in EN
<BlueT_> jono: we had aleady have our channel and mailing list
<beuno> jono, part of the problem is translation, but part of it might be centralizing information (and this applies to all LoCo's)
<jono> beuno: hang on a sec, centralising translated docs?
<jono> or all docs?
* beuno scrolls
<BlueT_> jono: geo-depend problem are solved by LoCo channels and mailing lists
<beuno> <beuno> maybe some centralized place wher everyone can put what they're working on
<jono> beuno: thats the ubuntu wiki
<effie_jayx> jono, ajam...
<looksaus> beuno, and the locoteams mailing list
<jono> and for generic loco documentation, that does in the loco knowledge base
<jono> looksaus: indeed
<BlueT_> jono: ubuntu-zh channel and mailing list are for all chanese LoCo
<beuno> but is there somewhere I can go and see "ok, I'm not going to translate the CoC because the venezuela team already did"
<BlueT_> jono: to solved language-depend problems
<jono> beuno: nope, but this is more of a rosetta problem
<jono> I don't think we can solve this at a policy level
<looksaus> jono, the problem is getting those who are not comfortable speaking/reading EN to see what happens in the rest of the world
<jono> it is indeed a problem, but I think we need to feed more content through rosetta and allow loco teams to subscribe to languages
<looksaus> and to push out what happens in theirs
<effie_jayx> jono,  at the same time it is our issue... cuz my Loco
<jono> looksaus: I understand, and I agree
<beuno> well, at a policy level what I think might solve it is having "regional" (language) meetings, and have 1 or 2 ppl represent them in international meetings
<beuno> defeating the language barrier
<looksaus> beuno, we're too much a volunteer group to rely on that
<jono> looksaus: but then again, why would a french speaker in canada care about what is happening in france?
<mruiz> bueno, in Chilean Wiki we have the spanish CoC
<beuno> mruiz, http://www.uluga.com.ar/wiki/CoC
<beuno> ;D
<beuno> see what I mean
<looksaus> jono, because it might actually be a very good idea that is also interesting to someone in Denmark
<BlueT_> jono: it had been worked for a year :)
<mruiz> bueno, http://wiki.ubuntu-cl.org/FirmandoElCodigoDeConductaComo
<jono> looksaus: I think this is too big a problem to solve with an open process like we have - there is no way to update locos of interest with informaton that is specific to a particular context
<jono> unless I am not understanding the problem?
<jono> BlueT_: what has? explain what you did
<effie_jayx> jono, the proble goes beyond the language...
<BlueT_> 23:29 < BlueT_> jono: geo-depend problem are solved by LoCo channels and mailing lists
<BlueT_> 23:29 < BlueT_> jono: ubuntu-zh channel and mailing list are for all chanese LoCo
<beuno> mruiz, oh, we translated the CoC itself, you translated "how to sign it"
<BlueT_> 23:30 < BlueT_> jono: to solved language-depend problems
<mruiz> bueno, http://wiki.ubuntu-cl.org/CodigoDeConducta/Version1.0.1
<jono> BlueT_: right, so problems for a specific team are solved on their mailing list and channel?
<beuno> ;D
<BlueT_> jono: yes
<beuno> then we both duplicated efforts on that
<jono> effie_jayx: where else is the problem?
<BlueT_> jono: and we're building a co-maintain wiki site
<jono> BlueT_: right, and every team has their own list and channel? what is the problem?
<effie_jayx> jono,  I am thinking people are not understanding the ubuntu culture ...
<jono> so is the problem we are discussing, how we solve two teams with the same language translating the same things, because they never knew they were doing it?
<effie_jayx> or they are living it in their own way... which is good
<beuno> I think having a language-based list and channel doesn't solve anything if it's not organized to take advantage of it
<effie_jayx> but in my loco
<effie_jayx> things were being done truth a lug
<jono> if the problem is the one I listed above, then that is a Rosetta issue, and not something we can solve
<BlueT_> jono: approved LoCo members will hang on both side (LoCo channel and co-maintain channel)
<jono> I think we can make strides to improve communication between teams where possible, and I like the idea of having a general mailing list for languages
<effie_jayx> which help keepping it a float for a while ... but not counting with some language councelor really made it difficul
<jono> BlueT_: sorry, co-maintain channel?
<looksaus> my understanding of the problem is: x spanish speaking locoteams have a lot of information to share, but few of the members are good EN speakers
<beuno> looksaus, that sums it up
<looksaus> so a lot of information doesn't come down from the locoteams list, and doesn't go up to the locoteams list
<BlueT_> jono: ooops.. i don't know how to explain it... just like #ubuntu-some-language
<jono> BlueT_: right, so you mean an IRC channel for a language
<BlueT_> jono: core members of ubuntu-tw, ubuntu-cn, and ubuntu-hk will all on both #ubuntu-CC and #ubuntu-ZH (ZongHua)
<jono> looksaus: right, so the problem is how to better integrate non-EN speakers into the community
<mruiz> looksaus, this is the real language problem!
<looksaus> absolutely
<effie_jayx> jono,  yessss :
<effie_jayx> :D
<beuno> jono, exactly what I had in mind
<BlueT_> jono: those people share informations on the channel
<looksaus> so what I was proposing was to have some spanish communication channel that stimulates those spanish speakers who _are_ proficient in english to make sure information flows from and to the main (EN speaking) channel
<zarul> that is a good idea
<jono> looksaus: I agree its a problem, but its impossible to solve - there is no process or structure we can create to get everyone involved, other than manding english as the normal language for communication, which we do now
<jono> looksaus: I think that it would be difficult to have ambassadors who speak english to feed non-english content back upstream
<beuno> jono, maybe part of the LoCo instructions on how to manage a LoCo can intruct that team leaders should have fluent communication between them
<Seveaz> jono: we coulda ll learn esperanto...
<looksaus> jono, not formally appointed people
<jono> I think we should encourage each loco team to have an english speaker though
<beuno> once they are in communication then the rest of the info will flow by itself
<jono> you know, it sucks that we have to always talk in english for a bunch of people, but there is no other way around it
<ypsila> pruhust
<jono> right now we require english as the language, but I think we only require english for interaction with the wider loco team project
<jono> so the loco can talk entirely in their own language, but only need to use english when talking to the wider project
<effie_jayx> jono,  we are not bothered by all the English... believe me ...
<jono> effie_jayx: right
<effie_jayx> jono,  75 % of the content on the internet is in English
<BlueT_> jono: absolutly
<beuno> I don't think that's where the problem should be solved, I think we need to make sure somehow the information gets passed around enough
<jono> beuno: what information and passed where?
<looksaus> jono, no matter how you turn it, a spanish speaking channel is going to grow anyway
<jono> looksaus: I never said I didnt want that?
<jono> I am happy for any language channel to grow, thats fine
<BlueT_> looksaus: just register it from ChanServ
<looksaus> no, of course not, but the thing we should do is make sure the relevant information discussed there gets passed around
<effie_jayx> looksaus,  but people could keep an eye on it... and make shure the efforts for streamlining things in loCo's around the wolrd don't leave the spanish people behind
<looksaus> stimulate that
<beuno> jono, if all the spanish speaking LoCo's have some sort of *standarized* communication then at least they all know what's going on between them. They're always going to be english speaking memebers that will bring those issues up in the wider project of the LoCo's
<looksaus> exactly what I'm trying to suggest practival solutions for
<jono> looksaus: sure, and again, I agree, but how do we do that? we can't just assign people to do it for us, it never works, so how do we do it in a natural way?
<looksaus> jono, like we discussed for not fragmenting newsletter and active core for 1 loco...
<beuno> yeap
<jono> looksaus: what do you mean?
<beuno> 1 member per LoCo to comunicate with all the rest of same-language speaking ones
<looksaus> one useful step would be to add a header/footer to every mailing list message of this spanish list
<jono> sorry, I think I have missed bits of discussion here
<beuno> that's all
<looksaus> that encourages participation to the intl list
<jono> right
<looksaus> clearly pointing to the intl list in the mailing list definition
<looksaus> things like that
<jono> I think in the project now, it is clear that locos should be reading loco-contacts
<Ma1kel> SUSE 10.2 FOR LIVE
<Ma1kel> j/k
<jono> looksaus: what do you mean for the newsletter?
<looksaus> err, we assembled a list of +-100 people who were not interested in following the intense communication on the locoteam list
<looksaus> but they were interested in ubuntu related activities in Belgium
<jono> ahhh, the -announce thing
<looksaus> yes
<jono> right, I am with you
<jono> sorry
* jono is going nuts! :P
<looksaus> :)
<looksaus> join the club :p
<ypsila> :-D
<Ma1kel> Yea guys thinking about adding a Slab menu for Feisty?
<Ma1kel> *You
<beuno> how about having a LoCo regional meeting to discuss this, manually contact all of them, and see what ideas popup?
<effie_jayx> beuno, sounds ok
<zarul> yea, that will make things easier
<jono> well I think the discussion of -announce lists is something we could discuss at the next meeting
<zarul> and it will solve a lot of things, including the timezone issue
<looksaus> ok (just mentioned it because of similarities with the native language loco comm channels)
<jono> I think a general -announce list may be a good idea
<jono> for the loco teams, that is
<effie_jayx> ok
<mruiz> jono, can we vote for meeting date and hour?
<jono> my concern is that if every loco has an -announce list, we balloon the number of lists, and it may fragment discussion, unless each -announce list can only have a single poster
<jono> mruiz: nope, we set them fortnightly
<mruiz> :-(
<jono> mruiz: so the next one is two weeks today
<beuno> jono, that's what I'm thinking, one person per LoCo
<looksaus> jono, maybe better keep this for next meeting... getting close to going overtime...
<looksaus> ?
<jono> yeah
<ubuntu_demon> hey
<jono> lets defer this to the next meeting, good work chaps :)
<mruiz> good bye jono
<effie_jayx> :D
<looksaus> beuno, you still feel like summarising this mess? :)
<beuno> lol
<jono> mruiz: I am staying for the CC meeting :P
* looksaus too
<mruiz> jono, me too :P
<jono> mruiz: :)
<LoudMouthMan> theres a meeting ?
<beuno> who should I send it to?
<jono> LoudMouthMan: :)
<mruiz> LoudMouthMan, LoCo meeting
<jono> beuno: send it to me
* BlueT_ same here
<Ma1kel> 8 minutes till meeting
<jono> heya MikeB-
<Ma1kel> The idea is jerking me off right here
<looksaus> hi MikeB- !
<beuno> jono, email address?
<Seveaz> Ma1kel: behave
<MikeB-> hello all
<looksaus> beuno, or the list...
<jono> beuno: jono AT ubuntu DOT com
<beuno> looksaus, I'll send it to jono first to make sure it's OK
<jono> I think regular meeting summaries with rock :)
<beuno> I don't mind doing summeries at all
* looksaus too! you rock beuno 
* beuno ;D
<mruiz> that's a good idea
<ubuntu_demon> MikeB = Mike Basinger or Mike Braniff ?
<MikeB-> Mike Basinger
<johnboy59> hi
<Seeker`>  hi
<mruiz> hi
<BlueT_> ciao
<lguerra> hi
<mruiz> bye BlueT_
<kalon33> hi
<sistpoty> hi folks
<PriceChild> Hi all
<BlueT_> mruiz: won't you join the comming meeting ?
<EmxBA> the meeting should start soon
<kalon33> hello jono
<ypsila> moin together
<ubuntu_demon> hey all :)
<PriceChild> hey ubuntu_demon
<Ma1kel> hai
<jbailey> Hmm.  Googling for community council meeting agenda doesn't give me the agenda.
<EmxBA> how does it go (becoming a member)? just appear in here and you will see how's it? :)
<MacSlow> Greetings everybody!
<mruiz> BlueT: yes, but as you say "ciao", I told you "bye". In my country "ciao" means "bye"
<EmxBA> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CommunityCouncilAgenda
<jbailey> EmxBA: Thanks!
<PriceChild> EmxBA: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/NewMemberHowto
<zarul> yeah ciao means bye here too
<ubuntugeek> hello all
* ypsila thought "ciao" is italian
<gnomefreak> ypsila: is
<ypsila> :-D
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:Ubugtu] : Current meeting: Community Council | Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 13 Dec 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 14 Dec 16:00 UTC: Ubuntu Development Team | 19 Dec 20:00 UTC: Technical Board | 20 Dec 20:00 UTC: Edubuntu
<BlueT_> mruiz: ciao's itatiano, means both good morning and good night :p
<Ma1kel> +m
<zarul> ok, it's 00:00 here now
<Ma1kel> same
<gnomefreak> BlueT_: hi and bye but close
<ypsila> 17:00
<kalon33> 17:00 too ^^
<jono> hi kalon33
<cjwatson> we'll be here in a minute or two
<ypsila> bon soir kalon33
<gnomefreak> jono: do we have new CC here or old CC here?
<kalon33> bonsoir ypsila
<BlueT_> 00:00 here
<zarul> so is the CC meeting going to start?
<Ma1kel> 17:02
<gnomefreak> zarul: couple of minutes
<MacSlow> 2 minutes late... tstststs ;)
<cjwatson> gno	old
<zarul> no prob
<ypsila> time to make nonsens
<cjwatson> gnomefreak: old
<gnomefreak> cjwatson: ok cool
<cjwatson> we've just been talking nominations on the phone
<MacSlow> hi cjwatson
<jono> gnomefreak: eh?
<Ma1kel> I'm hardcore.
<jono> oh right
<jono> old
<gnomefreak> jono: cjwatson answered
<jono> :)
<gnomefreak> :)
<cjwatson> RIGHT
<MacSlow> jono, since you are here now you may play a part in my 'fan-club' :)
<gnomefreak> hello elmo
<cjwatson> let the enormous agenda of death begin
<EmxBA> hello all
<cjwatson> oh, I guess we should wait for sabdfl and mako to /join
<popey> oi, gerrof MacSlow, he's mine!
<jono> now now
* jono sniggers
<GazzaK> does anyone want a nice banner to show their love and support for popey? I made this - http://img97.imageshack.us/img97/8489/popeysmembergg2.jpg
<LoudMouthMan> popey , macslow . .he asked me to join so he is mine !
<popey> oh jeez
<popey> he's only talking to you to get to me
<LoudMouthMan> oh and I brought my Client into the channel as well so be nice <grin>
<popey> \o/
<sabdfl> hey ho all you merry members
<johnboy59> Yes I have your Noveber cheque here Nik
<gnomefreak> hello sabdfl
<effie_jayx> :D
<kalon33> He helps me to do all right LoudMouthMan ! :p
<MacSlow> popey, LoudMouthMan: only over my dead body
<LoudMouthMan> mmmmm money ..
<kalon33> hello sabdfl
<popey> ;)
<GazzaK> evening sabdfl  - I made a banner :-)  http://img97.imageshack.us/img97/8489/popeysmembergg2.jpg
<EmxBA> hello sabdfl
<ypsila> moin sabdfl
<ubuntu_demon> hey sabdfl
<MacSlow> hi sabdfl
<sabdfl> it's been a while
<popey> moo
<sabdfl> sorry about that - lots of travel for the whole team
<mruiz> hello sabdfl
<sabdfl> but
<lophylap> heya sabdfl
<gnomefreak> GazzaK: please dont spam in here
<sabdfl> also lots of productive community-related discussions at UDS mountain view
<sabdfl> thanks to everyone who participated there
<sabdfl> directly and via voip / gobby / wiki / irc
<sabdfl> popey: niiiice
<sabdfl> so
<sabdfl> we have some excellent structural items up for comment and approval
<EmxBA> how will the CC meeting go? from A to Z from the agenda list or?
<sabdfl> we also want to set a timetable for the expansion of the CC
<Seveaz> sabdfl: are there other CC members somewhere?
<sabdfl> looking at the agenda, there's an item missing, which is the proposal of seveas as a CC Secretary, a new role
<elmo> seveaz: colin and I are here
<mruiz> ;-)
<elmo> mako was around, he should be here shortly
<Seveaz> elmo: merci and hi
<sabdfl> mako was on a call with us a second ago
<sabdfl> Seveaz, you going french?
<PriceChild> speak of the devil
<mako> greetings
<ubuntugeek> .
<Seveaz> hi mako
<jono> heya mako
<MacSlow> hi mako
<Belutz> ah i missed the loco meeting :(
<jono> Belutz: there will be a summary, fear not
<nixternal> good jono, cuz i was sleeping in class :)
<sabdfl> ok, on to the agenda
<lophyte> heya nixternal
<sabdfl> Seveas, around?
<ubuntu_demon> hey mako
<kalon33> hello nixternal
<mako> unfortunately, i have not been able to go through all of my canonical mail from over the weekend so may not as up to date on every issue as i should be
<mako> i should also mention that i will probably have to go in 1.5 or 2 hours, but am happy to catch up later this afternoon on anything i miss
<gnomefreak> Seveaz: is seveas i think ;)
<Belutz> jono: ok, thanks :)
<mako> but we should try to handle things that have a lot of discussion before
<Seveaz> gnomefreak: correct :)
<Seveaz> sabdfl: I'm at work now so different nick
<PriceChild> gnomefreak: the cloak gives it away
<jono> ok, so is the Leadership CoC first?
* gnomefreak didnt look at cloak
<mako> sabdfl: right
<sabdfl> Seveaz: please add the secretary proposal to the end of the agenda
<mako> yes, Leadership CoC
<sabdfl> Leadership Code of Conduct
<sabdfl> thanks to mako, jono and others for pulling this together
<Seveaz> sabdfl: -EACCESS forgot password and no access to home mail
<sabdfl> i think it's important, especially in the context of the various team councils that are being set up
<mako> if they haven't already, people should read it
<jono> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LeadershipCodeofConduct by the way
<mako> if they see anything major missing, or something major that shouldn't be there that is, it would be good to know
<mako> obviously, since i wrote it, i'm pretty happy with ti.
<Belutz> do the LoCo leader have to sign this leadership CoC?
<sabdfl> i've reviewed and made a few tweaks
<mako> sabdfl: you're the only one :)
<cjwatson> "conflicts of interest"> I think the emphasis is the wrong way round in the third sentence
<sabdfl> yes, LoCo team leaders, and other senior CC-appointed teams (and of course the CC ;-)) will be held to this standard
<cjwatson> should be that perceived conflicts of interest are as important as real ones?
<sabdfl> cjwatson: good point
<lophyte> is that only for approved LoCo teams?
<mako> cjwatson: yes
<jono> lophyte: all leaders are expected to abide by it
<sabdfl> lophyte: for anyone that purports to take a leadership role in a LoCo team
<lophyte> alrighty :)
<jono> lophyte: and the approval process for loco teams will observe this
<sabdfl> in other words, if you are driving a team or claiming to, for part of ubuntu, then you should expect people to hold you to this standard
<Belutz> jono: when is the deadline for the approved loco teams?
<sabdfl> just like people in an IRC channel or forum or mailing list might say to someone, "dude, read the CoC, I think that's a bit out of line"
<mako> it's seen as something like the code of conduct
<EmxBA> hi mako, nixternal, seveaz, ubuntu_demon
<mako> not a stick, but a high-level set of principles we except leaders to live up to
<sabdfl> folks will likely remind leaders of this document if they are forgetting the guidelines
<lophyte> jono, sabdfl: excellent :)
<mako> that's right
<jono> Belutz: there is no deadline, but we expect loco leaders to abide by the Leadership CoC - this is why we are presenting it to the CC for approval
<Seveaz> s/except/expect/
<jono> Belutz: most leaders have the qualities in that document fairly innately
<sabdfl> ok, so any additional comments on the document?
<mruiz> jono: what is the difference between LoCo leader and LoCo contact? This CoC is only for leaders?
<mako> mruiz: the lcoc is for anyone in a leadership position in ubuntu
<theCore> can I ask a question?
<sabdfl> can I ask CC members to +1 or -1 the document as it stands, pending possible typo or tweaks, no "editorial changes"?
<mako> theCore: of course
<sabdfl> theCore: go ahead
<jono> mruiz: if a team has a leader, or puts themself in a position of leadership, they should abide by the LCoC
<cjwatson> sabdfl: I did some minor tweaks just now
<mruiz> ok, thanks
<theCore> how new leaders will be nominated?
<Seveaz> theCore: that's different per team
<MikeB-> the document is fine, one comment I have is if there is ever a CoC 2.0 made, the LCoC should be merge into it. Many of the ideas of the LCoC can be applied to ever Ubuntu community member
<mako> MikeB-: fair enough
<sabdfl> if you form a team, called, say "ubuntu-advocacy-it", and announce it, and want to be an organiser, then you should expect people to hold you to this standard even if you did this without any formal appointment by the CC
<sabdfl> you are overtly taking a leadership role
<sabdfl> and anyone participating in the ubuntu community, in its broadest sense, should know what they can expect from their leaders
<ubuntugeek> hmm so does this mean that any (ubuntuforums) staff member should be bound to the lcoc as well? Or should only admins/fc be bound to this?
<mako> right, the CoC doesn't just apply to people who have officially agreed it to or become ubunteros.. it sets the tone for the community
<theCore> sabdfl, ah, that makes more sense
<theCore> thanks
<mako> likewise, this wouldn't only apply to people in officially delegated positions but anyone in a leadership position to the community
<sabdfl> ubuntugeek: i think you will find that forums members hold moderators to this standard
<sabdfl> same with irc participants and IRC ops
<sabdfl> the nice thing is, there is still room for context-specific guidelines and processes
<ubuntugeek> i see
<PriceChild> ubuntugeek: sabdfl: What about moderators who are currently on leave? Surely things like the stepping down during extended absences can't apply.
<sabdfl> like the forums guys with their dispute resolution processes
<sabdfl> and the mailing list etiquette guidelines
<MikeB-> ubuntugeek: I think the staff is viewed and acts as leaders
<sabdfl> and IRC ops guidelines
<sabdfl> this is a nice general statement of core values
<jono> indeed
<mako> ubuntugeek: it's high level, people aren't often (ever?) punished for violating it. but it's a set of ideals that we agree to agree on
<markvandenborre> I really like it
<mako> like the CoC
<cjwatson> the thing I'd like people to take away from this is that holding a position of authority is a contract - you have certain privileges in exchange for certain responsibilities
<sabdfl> PriceChild: interesting. in the case of moderation, you are not *blocking* decisions by not stepping down
<sabdfl> i think it may be worth clarifying this
<ubuntu_demon> sabdfl : +1
<sabdfl> in other words, where a leadership position has a quorum impact on decisions, its important to step down
<cjwatson> this is a sort of statement of the general kinds of responsibilities that people in authority tend to have
<cjwatson> as part of general leadership decency
<sabdfl> where it's just about having additional permissions, and others can take up the slack without you stepping down, then there's more flexibility
<PriceChild> sabdfl: ubuntugeek: ok gotcha. Btw, I have no problem with the LCoC or CoC, to me they're just common courtesy.
<mako> PriceChild: that's the idea
<ubuntu_demon> I really like the LCoC and CoC
<sabdfl> PriceChild: you'd be amazed how useful it is to document common courtesy, given the diversity in age, nationality, culture, language, background, etc in a community this big
<cjwatson> sabdfl: "If an absence becomes extended, [and this absence will get in the way of other people's work,]  they should step own ..."
<cjwatson> down
<cjwatson> ?
<ubuntu_demon> cjwatson: I like that added part
<PriceChild> sabdfl: It is very useful having a solid document to be able to refer "naughty" users to.
<cjwatson> I wouldn't really want to use the term "naughty" of leaders :-)
<theCore> "Leaders in Ubuntu can not and will not stay leaders only because they got there first."  How leaders will be changed?
<ogra> votes
<PriceChild> :)
<jono> the LCoC not onl document courtesy but identifies core leadership values, that like sabdfl says, can be built upon inside each team
<SD-Plissken> So what. you guys are saying that one can not give courtesy and respect with out following the CoC rules?
<cjwatson> theCore: this isn't a statement of process
<somerville32> What level of professionalism should volunteers in leadership positions (such as an IRC Operator or Team Leader) be expected to maintain?
<PriceChild> That's a polite word for it anyway...
<ubuntugeek> "Leaders in Ubuntu can not and will not stay leaders only because they got there first" 
<ubuntugeek> sure they can..
<ubuntugeek> why not
<anto9us> If I can interject something that might be missing from the lcoc doc, and that is that leaders often treat each other in ways that might be mis-perceived by some as inappropriate, like kicking each other from the IRC-channels for example, it's fun perhaps for the ops but open to interpretation as bullying or flexing of IRC muscle, to my mind, it's an example of setting a bad example
<Seveaz> ubuntugeek: others may be more competent
<Seveaz> or more available
<Seveaz> or better smelling
<Seveaz> or ....
<ubuntugeek> huh
<lophyte> just because you got there first, doesn't mean you're a good leader
<GnuKemist> :)
<elmo> ubuntugeek: it doesn't mean to imply that if they're fine, and the only thing is that they were there first, that they have to be replaced
<LoudMouthMan> lophyte: indeed.
<cjwatson> ubuntugeek: depends on the leader. I'm stepping down from the CC because I think others who have got less worn-out will do a better job than I can.
<cjwatson> ubuntugeek: but that doesn't mean I think the other CC members ought to do the same
<ubuntugeek> Sure..
<jono> anto9us: that is in some ways a separate issue - bullying is unacceptable, but there is no way we can develop policy and guidelines around "playful banter"
<ubuntu_demon> in case of ubuntugeek it's in the ForumsGovernance document that he has a lifetime membership of the Forums Council as long as ubuntugeek (Ryan) follows the LCoC
<cjwatson> ubuntugeek: I think the point is "*only* because" - if folks deserve to continue leading their community, there are certainly other "because"s
<mako> ubuntugeek: the operative word is *only*
<ubuntugeek> ud: ah, which i never really agreed to. the lcoc was added our calls
<mako> ubuntugeek: if the *only* reason someone maintains a leadership position is because they got their first, that seems like a bit of a bum deal
<sabdfl> ok, i've modded the doc to address the difference between blocking and non-blocking absences
<sabdfl> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LeadershipCodeofConduct?action=diff
<PriceChild> Thanks sabdfl
<ubuntu_demon> ubuntugeek : the lcoc was mentioned during one of these conference calls about the forums. I'm sure you overheard. But it's not very important as long as you agree :)
<mako> ubuntugeek, ubuntu_demon: but this document wasn't written when we had the last call. that's why we're talking about it now
<ubuntu_demon> mako : yeah
<MikeB-> as I see it, the LCoC is a guideline, a document to give us direction, and should never be use as a stick to weild over people
<mako> ubuntugeek couldn't have been expected to agree in advance to an unwritten document :)
<ubuntu_demon> mako : true. although it's a nice document :)
<mako> ubuntu_demon: i agree :)
<ubuntugeek> hah
<ubuntugeek> wow ego's
<ubuntu_demon> :-p
<mako> ubuntugeek: ;)
<ubuntugeek> not amused..
<MikeB-> all cases will have to be bought to the CC, FC , or whatever counsil
<cjwatson> one problem we have had in the past, in Debian or Ubuntu or whatever, is team leaders wandering off and everyone else being stuck unable to get anything done
<cjwatson> it's a pretty real problem
<sabdfl> ubuntugeek: satisfied with the language?
<popey> indeed, LUGs have the same problem
<ubuntugeek> sure ok, lets move on then.. we can address the lcoc i am bound to when we talk about the governance
<kalon33> sure popey
<ubuntu_demon> ubuntugeek : IMHO it's important that you address it now if you have any issues with it. Then it can be improved.
<sabdfl> this is not a legal document
<sabdfl> it will be difficult to "bind" anyone to it
<anto9us> jono, yes, I make a specific point as an example and yes I agree it's a separate issue, though I wouldn't wish for a policy around that specifically so much as awareness of potential issues that might arise from the playful banter, to some seeing someone being kicked strikes up a fight or flight response
<ubuntugeek> thats fine.. nothing further from me
<sabdfl> most of what happens in the ubuntu community is based on goodwill and good faith
<cjwatson> it's more important to say what we expect so that people know what they're "signing up for" when they take on leadership positions
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:Ubugtu] : Current meeting: Community Council | Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 13 Dec 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 14 Dec 16:00 UTC: Ubuntu Development Team | 19 Dec 20:00 UTC: Technical Board | 20 Dec 20:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 21 Dec 21:00 UTC: Ubuntu Development Team
<effie_jayx> sabdfl,  there is still moral respnsibility
<effie_jayx> :D
<sabdfl> i think it will be clear the circumstances under which someone is not really following this LCoC
<cjwatson> if you've not been in a leadership kind of position before, sometimes it's not all obvious
<SD-Plissken> How is it not a legal doc. your asking folks to abide by it,and conform the rules in it sabdfl
<jono> anto9us: sure, and I think this is something we can discuss and develop as a separate case
<sabdfl> i don't think it will ever turn into a legalistic, clause-by-clause thing
<mako> right, introducing something like this retroactively is a bit tricky, so it's important to get consensus or identify issues now among people who are currently in leadership positions
<mako> right, i think it's more like the CoC
<cjwatson> SD-Plissken: it's not "you're violating clause 3, subsection 7. bzzt" - it's an informal statement of values
<mako> people invoke it frequently enough, but rarely "apply" it
<cjwatson> er clause <-> subsection but you know what I mean :-)
<ubuntu_demon> mako : +1. IMHO it's important that all big community leaders give their input on the document right now .. before it's getting approved
<sabdfl> to be specific, i would not ask ubuntugeek to step down form the forums council because of a single incident or issue, which is i think what was worrying ubuntugeek, given the context of our UDS forums discussions
<ubuntugeek> sabdfl: correct
<sabdfl> i am happy with ubuntugeek's life-long position on the FC, it's an unusual concession but i think it's well deserved
<sabdfl> making it subject to the LCoC is really only a convenient way of saying "stay engaged and stay constructive"
<jono> I agree with sabdfl that it would be pretty clear if someone was not acting within the spirit of the LCoC
<ubuntu_demon> sabdfl: +1 IMHO ubuntugeek deserves to be a lifelong member of the FC
<SD-Plissken> cjwatson I don't by that. the simple fact is if you dont abide by it your brought up for repremand or asked to remove yourself. rules are writen to be inforced. I highly doubt these where written in hohum fashion.
<sabdfl> i would not invoke the LCoC unless there was BROAD consensus that that was not the case
<sabdfl> like, someone doesn't show up to meetings for months
<sabdfl> i have to be a bit careful here myself ;-)
<mako> sabdfl: that's right
<jono> indeed
<nixternal> haha
<MikeB-> sabdfl: bwhahaha!!!
<mako> sabdfl: the whole thing, not just that you need to be careful.. ALTHOUGH YOU DO
<mako> :)
<sabdfl> ok, so, can i ask CC members to +1 or -1 the document as it stands?
<cjwatson> SD-Plissken: guidelines, not rules
<sabdfl> we're 30 minutes in and have a lot of ground to cover
<mako> i'll abstain since i had a such a large role in drafting it
<sabdfl> mako: please don't!
<kalon33> sabdfl: funny ^^
<cjwatson> rules are written to be enforced, but guidelines are written so that people know where they stand
<jono> I think you should vote mako
<mako> fine, +1 from me
<jono> mako: you would not write it if you disagreed with it
<mako> jono: right, that's why i wouldn't vote against it :)
<cjwatson> sabdfl: +1, we've already gone over the bits I thought were wonky and changed them
<SD-Plissken> Fine guidelines. and the fact still stand if you don't follow the guideline theres reprocutions.
<elmo> +1
<EmxBA> +1 from me too
<jono> mako: woo!
<Yann2> +1 as guidelines
<sabdfl> +1 form me too
<sabdfl> super, thanks mako, jono, CC
<cjwatson> sabdfl: oh, perhaps we should make it even more clear that they're not meant for rigid enforcement
<sabdfl> DONE
<jono> :)
<BlueT_> +1 as Guidelines
<mruiz> +1
<cjwatson> it does say so at the top, but it could be clearer to stave off paranoia
<ubuntu_demon> +1 for the LCoC
<Seveaz> (people: only CC members vote. +1 from others is noty needed)
<sabdfl> it does say "a set of guidelines"
<ubuntu_demon> +1 for the LCoC as guidelines that is :)
<mako> alright lets move on
<mako> my time here is limited
<sabdfl> so let's leave it as it stands, we can clarify it if someone cites the LCoC in a lawsuit :-)
<Seveaz> sabdfl: can we do the IRC bit first, I may get kicked out soon
<mako> the forums governance document is next
<cjwatson> SD-Plissken: I'd expect that in general if people were acting out of character for how we'd like leaders to behave, we'd talk to them first, not treat them like naughty children
<sabdfl> ok
<mako> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ForumsGovernance i believe
<sabdfl> i'll come out up front and say i'm opposed
<sabdfl> (sorry, mako, want to address IRC issue)
<sabdfl> i understand there are some issues
<mako> oh, ok
<sabdfl> but i don't think the folks proposing the move have come up with very strong arguments
<mako> i missed a line in there
<sabdfl> freenode appears to be doing OK despite the loss of lilo
<ubuntu_demon> are we talking about seveas as CC secretary now ?
<Seveaz> ubuntu_demon: no, staying on freenode or not
<sabdfl> the #canonical issue was never, in my mind, a forcing function for an ubuntu community decision, and its resolved now in any event
<SD-Plissken> cjwatson if you say so. just remember that statement you made there.
<gnomefreak> ubuntu_demon: no freenode proposals
<cjwatson> the original GetOffFreenodeSpec was prompted by concerns about #canonical - that's since been moved to a private server so seems moot
<cjwatson> SD-Plissken: sure, I'm entirely happy to stand by what I said
<sabdfl> ok, so does anyone on the CC want to take up the case for moving?
<ubuntugeek> someone ping me when we get to the FG..
<ubuntu_demon> ubuntugeek : I will
<cjwatson> sabdfl: no, I was sort of +0 anyway and am uninterested now
<sabdfl> ok, can we vote briefly?
<sabdfl> -1
<sabdfl> i would rather we vote, take a decision, than just defer it indefinitely
<cjwatson> -0, seems like lots of work for little gain now
<elmo> -0
<Yann2> -1
<mruiz> Our LoCo team (http://www.ubuntu-cl.org) has a forum.  This FG can be applied?
<jono> Yann2: only CC members need to vote thanks
<sabdfl> mako?
<cjwatson> mruiz: let's wait 'til we get to that agenda item
<mako> ubuntu_demon: should be next i suppose
<PriceChild> mruiz: we haven't got to that yet
<Yann2> jono > I think I am :] 
<Yann2> or am i ubuntu member ... sorry :] 
<mako> sabdfl: i'm not going to rock the boat
<sabdfl> Yann2: you'll get to vote on CC members, soon
<gnomefreak> Yann2: the CC is only 4 members
<jono> Yann2: you are not a CC member
<Seveaz> Yann2: the CC members are sabdfl, elmo, mako, kamion
<mruiz> cjwatson, PriceChild : oh
<sabdfl> mako: +1, -1, 0?
<mako> 0
<cjwatson> s/kamion/cjwatson/ nowadays :)
<sabdfl> ok
<sabdfl> guess i have to take the bullet ;-)
* Seveaz kisses sabdfl 
<sabdfl> CC decides to decline the proposal, we can of course discuss this again in future if the situation changes
* gnomefreak never seena  tie before
<MikeB-> bullets are a good source of iron
<cjwatson> gnomefreak: that wasn't a tie, it was -1/4
<mako> i'm sympathetic for arguements from both side, but don't see a mandate for moving from the community
<apokryphos> I think it would've been useful to get input from people on the IRC ops council on this issue too
<sabdfl> Seveas: what's next?
<apokryphos> though I'm sure they all agree with the final decision 8)
<Seveaz> sabdfl: forums guidelines
<elmo> apokryphos: (we did at previous meetings)
<jono> ubuntugeek: ping! its up
<sabdfl> ok, we had extensive and ultimately very positive, constructive discussions on this during mountain view
<ubuntugeek> ok
<sabdfl> i think everyone in the CC wants to give the Forums full recognition and integration in the the ubuntu community
<sabdfl> so thanks to those who devoted a lot of time to the discussions
<jono> the document is at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ForumsGovernance
<ubuntugeek> I have no issues at this time with the FG.. we discussed it in detail at the mds
<kalon33> thanks jono for the reference
<sabdfl> one thing that i think is worth pointing out is that a lot of this thinking has been generalised to other teams too
<cjwatson> (administrivia: I have to leave at 17:45 UTC)
<mako> yeah, i'm excited that it looks like we're finally ready to move forward with this.. it's way, way past time that the forums be given full recognition for the central role they've played
<sabdfl> so this effort pays off not just for Forums but for other growing parts of the community
<sabdfl> like the MOTU
<sabdfl> these guidelines, structures etc will get duplicated and re-used
<ubuntu_demon> Maybe we should ask if there are people who have big issues with the document ?
<sabdfl> so a worthwhile investment of time and thinking from ubuntugeek, jono, mako, ubuntu_demon, MikeB-, CC and many others
<sabdfl> can we take out the "This a draft. Everything here is completely open for discussion and reevaluation."
<mako> the only procedural clarification i'd like to make now (which i think is clear in the document), is that council, when initially created, won't immediately be able to create ubuntu members
<mako> sabdfl: i'd love to
<sabdfl> ok, i'm going to chop off the top and bottom which are focused on the discussion, so what we have left is the RESULT and the document for approval by the CC
<mako> sabdfl: i just chopped off the top
<ubuntu_demon> mako : the CC will guide the FC in the process of creating ubuntu members right ? So maybe current forum staff on the CC agenda can be the first to go through this new process
<effie_jayx> httguhthhghryhhrhhh55u4htjh5jutj6iuu4h5i6h3jhrtjhrjhrjhrjrtujhrtjjtjht
<effie_jayx> rtjhtrht5
<ubuntugeek> ud: I think we were going to get to the election of ubuntu members down the road at some point
<cjwatson> ... and hello to effie_jayx's cat
<PriceChild> lol :)
<dholbach> :-)
<GazzaK> haha
<mruiz> hahaha
<jono> so are there any aspects that anyone wishes to discuss about the document?
<EmxBA> effie_jayx: hello cat. welcome to ubuntu meeting :)
<mako> ubuntu_demon, ubuntugeek: that's right, soon, we just need to see a few of the FC members here as we  go through the process so we're sure everyone is on the same page in terms of qualifications for membership
<mako> ubuntugeek, ubuntu_demon: we've done that with all of the councils as well
<ubuntugeek> none here.. I would like to note per our conversations at mds.. the FC would be formed initially of myself, john and mike with the nominations of two others to sit on the fc with us.. i dont see that on the document
<ubuntu_demon> mako : yeah great . There are a few forum staff who want to become Ubuntu Members. There's at least one on the current CC agenda (I haven't had time to take a good look at it)
<jono> ubuntugeek: which Mike?
<ubuntugeek> kiwinz braniff
<jono> right
<PriceChild> ubuntu_demon: I'm one :)
<SD-Plissken> ubuntugeek now theres the question who will pick the other two parties to sit with you?
<ubuntu_demon> kiwinz and john (jdong) are both forum admins
<sabdfl> ok, i've taken out all the "discussion" stuff
<sabdfl> so the doc represents a clear proposal
<sabdfl> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ForumsGovernance?action=diff
<ubuntugeek> sd-.. the admins have already discussed and chosen..
<mako> ubuntugeek: right, we need the full list so we can approve it
<ubuntu_demon> SD-Plissken: IMHO Ryan can start with 3 admins as FC or 3 admins + 2 others (chosen by Ryan as well)
<sabdfl> to be clear, the nominations should come from the CC, not just approval of forums admins decisions
<ubuntugeek> mako: full list of what?
<sabdfl> the process is laid out in the FG doc
<mako> ubuntugeek: candidates, namely the two others
<mako> ubuntugeek: sorry, forum membefs
<mako> ubuntugeek: sorry, forum *council* members
<ubuntugeek> i was under the impression to initialize this process we were going to select
<sabdfl> the initial FC is 3 members (ryan troy, mike braniff, john dong)
<sabdfl> we need to expand that to 5
<ubuntugeek> Right
<sabdfl> process is cc appointment in consultation with [list of stakeholders] 
<sabdfl> i'd like to get to 5 quick, and think it's reasonable for the FC (of 3) to put up some names
<sabdfl> if the CC is happy, we can JDI
<ubuntugeek> Thats fine
<ubuntu_demon> what does JD stand for ?
<ubuntugeek> mikeb and matthew are our two selections.
* GnuKemist takes a quick bio break ;)
<sabdfl> Just Do It
<ubuntu_demon> okay thanks :)
<sabdfl> intro to matthew? i think the CC has met MikeB in Moutnain View
<mako> sabdfl: so, to clarify, is the idea to vote on this now with the initial list of three
<cjwatson> mikeb as in Basinger?
<cjwatson> which matthew?
<ubuntugeek> cjwatson: correct
<ubuntu_demon> ubuntugeek : Do mikeb and matthew know you have nominated them ?
<sabdfl> mako: if we have 2 good candidates, i think we all win with a fast decision on the expansion as well as the FG docs
<sabdfl> ubuntu_demon: heh, good point
* mako nods
<sabdfl> they do, of course, have to want the position :-)
<ubuntu_demon> matthew and mikeb are two fine forum moderaters who have been active in the staff for quite some time
<ubuntugeek> http://ubuntuforums.org/member.php?u=17635
<mako> well, MikeB- knows now :)
<PriceChild> +1 on that ubuntu_demon
<ubuntugeek> ud: yes they know
<MikeB-> ubuntugeek asked me a couple of weeks ago, I would be honored
<jenda> I'd second that too, ubuntu_demon.
<ubuntugeek> and both accepted
<cjwatson> ubuntugeek: ta
<sabdfl> has this been publicly discussed by forums staff?
<sabdfl> since we're approving the FG doc, it seems sane to make sure it's followed :-)
<ubuntugeek> matthew is a fine moderator who has take the intuitive to excel his role on the forums.
<sabdfl> but, has it been publicly discussed with forums staff?
<ubuntu_demon> sabdfl: AFAIK it's not been publicly discussed with forums staff (it's new to me but I've been quite busy lately with school)
<sabdfl> are both candidates ubuntu members?
<ubuntugeek> no clue
<jenda> MikeB-: is candidating now
<MikeB-> sabdfl: appliying today
<sabdfl> (it would be a trivial +1 given their contributions to the forum, clearly)
<MikeB-> :), Vote Mike!
<ubuntu_demon> is matthew here now ?
<ubuntugeek> i dont think he could make it
<sabdfl> ok, CC, how do you feel about dealing with MikeB now, and asking for more on matthew?
<jenda> matthew is an ubuntu member
<sabdfl> the doc says
<jenda> https://launchpad.net/people/matthelmke
<sabdfl>  - ubuntu member
<sabdfl>  - public wiki page
<elmo> trivial +1 on MikeB-
<cjwatson> ditto elmo
<MikeB-> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MikeBasinger
<mako> sabdfl: we've seen matthelmkde before,
<sabdfl>  - opinions from forums staff, admins (we have that)
<cjwatson> matthew is already in ubuntumembers, good
<ubuntu_demon> +1 for MikeB
<jenda> mako: careful, mdke = Matthew East
<sabdfl> yeah, all i'm looking for is a bit more public process within the Forums on matthew's nomination to FC
<cjwatson> MikeB-: could you stick a link to your launchpad page on your wiki page? thanks
<mako> jenda: while tricky, i think i can keep my matthe's straight ;)
<sabdfl> mako: we've hired a BUNCH more at Canonical :-)
<SD-Plissken> sabdfl matthew and mike are both good to go,and standup guys.
<sabdfl> not all of whom, i think, are straight
<jenda> hehe :)
<ubuntu_demon> sabdfl: the best way to get more forums input is discussing it in our private staff forum. Personally I support these two candidates (I didn't know about them being nominated)
<ubuntugeek> sd-plissken is a moderator
<ubuntugeek> you have enough feedback here to proceed
<PriceChild> For what its worth I'll back both of them also - moderator
<zarul> it is 01:00 here
<mako> i'm thrilled with MikeB- for membership
<sabdfl> ok, let's vote on MikeB for ubuntu membership, then for FC membership, and ask ubuntugeek to coordinate more public discussion on matthew amongst forums staff
<ubuntu_demon> ubuntugeek : that's true as well. How many forum staff are here now ?
<mako> the documentation only confirms that i thought before
<ubuntugeek> mako: ?
<cjwatson> I think we've already voted on MikeB for membership. :)
<sabdfl> so we have mako +1 on mikeb, and i will +1 too
<cjwatson> 16:58 < elmo> trivial +1 on MikeB-
<cjwatson> 16:59 < cjwatson> ditto elmo
<sabdfl> ok, and cjwatson too, so well done mikeb
<mako> ubuntugeek: documentation on his wiki page, etc
<EmxBA> excuse me, but what+s FC?
<mako> ubuntugeek: lots of contributions, activity on the forums, etc
<sabdfl> Forums Council
<Seveaz> EmxBA: forums council
<MikeB-> my thanks to you all
<sabdfl> welcome
<cjwatson> EmxBA: see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ForumsGovernance
<EmxBA> thanks
<ogra> MikeB-, congrats and welcome
<jono> congratulations MikeB-
<ubuntu_demon> congratiolations MikeB ! :)
<sabdfl> +1 from me also for MikeB on the FC
<PriceChild> well done MikeB-
<cjwatson> MikeB-: (will need a launchpad account name to put that into effect)
<EmxBA> brb
<mako> right, i'm happy with both both MikeB- and matthew (for tha matter) on the FC
<ubuntu_demon> mako : me too
<elmo> what mako said
<sabdfl> ok, +1 from mako on both MikeB and matthew
<ubuntu_demon> (although I'm not a CC member :))
<sabdfl> i'd like more evidence of open forums discussion on matthew, but if the rest of the CC +1's him i'll roll with it
<ubuntugeek> us three admins discussed it.. thats good enough, the fg isnt even in place yet.
<ubuntugeek> if it was we would have taken another direction
<sabdfl> ok, let's vote on the FG doc
<sabdfl> +1 from me on that
<cjwatson> I'm ok with MikeB and matthew, since the forums staff are happy
<elmo> +1 from me on FG
<ubuntu_demon> Great!
<mako> +1 from me as well
<ubuntu_demon> ubuntugeek : well chosen on matthew and mikeB
<mako> lets edit that document to include a list of FC members
<ubuntugeek> We will introduce the fc changes on the forums within the next week.
* Seveaz will be kicked out of the building in 5 minutes
<mako> ubuntugeek: sounds good
<Seveaz> sorry folks
<mako> Seveaz: that's fine.. i've got about a half an hour it seems
<ubuntu_demon> So the FG did pass right ?
<sabdfl> cjwatson: vote on the FG doc?
<mako> ubuntu_demon: it's about to
<sabdfl> no pressure :-)
<ubuntu_demon> I see ... cjwatson's vote is still missing :)
<EmxBA> there are ~25 people listed on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CommunityCouncilAgenda that should be considered
<cjwatson> no issues with the FG document, pending approval of the initial FC members
<sabdfl> aren't they separate issues?
<mako> EmxBA: it's extremely unlikely that we're goig to get through them all
<sabdfl> one is process, the other is candidates?
<cjwatson> sabdfl: erm, yeah, seems like it
* MacSlow is here
<EmxBA> mako:... nor half of them is here
<cjwatson> so no issues from me
<markvandenborre> I seem to remember the first 5 of them were actually voted on last time
<sabdfl> thumbs up or down?
<zarul> I am here
<popey> some of us are :)
<cjwatson> up
<ubuntugeek> ok so we good on the fc+fg stuff?
<zarul> and it is very hard for me who is GMT + 8 to be here
<sabdfl> brilliant
<jono> fantastic
* PriceChild smiles
<sabdfl> OK, so CC approves the FG document, with much thanks to those who helped write it
<ubuntu_demon> Great!
<kalon33> cool !
<MikeB-> woot!
<cjwatson> open discussion on matthew wouldn't hurt, thinking about it - maybe make that one pending? shouldn't take long
* jenda throws a party
<sabdfl> we have a full house of +1's on MikeB
<ubuntugeek> +1 matthew
<ubuntugeek> or we cant move forward
<sabdfl> so MikeB is on the FG, and i think it's worth asking ubuntugeek to host a discussion on matthew as the next candidate
<sabdfl> in the forums
<mako> we should also thanks ubuntugeek for bearing through this process.. and for all of his other work making the forums so great :)
<PriceChild> sabdfl: public or staff discussion?
<sabdfl> ubuntugeek: yes we can, FG doc is approved, you have a council of 4 including yourself, and you have a casting vote
<PriceChild> thanks ubuntugeek :)
<cjwatson> ubuntugeek: it doesn't seem like a blocker to start with 4 briefly?
<sabdfl> both, if needed, so public should be fine unless stuff gets tricky
<ubuntugeek> Like i said
<ubuntugeek> if we cant vote the people in
<ubuntugeek> we cant move forward
<sabdfl> ubuntugeek: you have a council, it's not at 5 people, but the FG doc calls for comment from a long list of folks and there is no thread on the forums to suggest that's happened
<ubuntugeek> blah
<ubuntu_demon> I trust matthew to do a good job.
<ubuntugeek> Then we shall not move forward
<jenda> What's the matter with matthew?
<sabdfl> i have no doubt matthew will get the nod in the next round, but i also think we owe it to the forums users and staff to have a place they can comment on candidates
<PriceChild> But surely now the 4 members are appointed... they can appoint the 5th immediately?
<jenda> I think he has unanimous support among us, the forum staff?
<ubuntugeek> OK, i am going to make this clear
<sabdfl> PriceChild: no, the FG does not appoint its own members
<sabdfl> sorry, FC
<ubuntugeek> we are not moving forward at this time
<PriceChild> sabdfl: sorry misunderstanding
<sabdfl> well, ok, i think we have made good progress
<sabdfl> the FG document is approved by the CC
<sabdfl> and we have a Forums Council of 4 members
<ubuntugeek> no we dont
<sabdfl> that's a good start
<sabdfl> ubuntugeek: in what sense do we not?
<ubuntugeek> Because we are not moving forward
<cjwatson> could you please rephrase that without using the words "moving forward"? I'm having trouble working out what you mean
<jono> ubuntugeek: what is your objection?
<ubuntugeek> During our calls, it was implied that the initial two people who be chosen by the current admins.. we did this..
<sabdfl> not as i recall it, anyone else who was there care to weigh in?
<MikeB-> ubuntugeek: i think it is fine to get open discussion for both me and matthew on to the FC. I'm willing to delay my nod to the FC till next month so the community can have its say
<sabdfl> the doc explicitly names 3 initial members
<sabdfl> and explicitly gives a list of folks to be consulted on new appointments
<sabdfl> and explicitly says we want to get to 5 quickly
<ubuntugeek> ok if the three admins and the various mod's here backing people are not good enough then i am done here
<sabdfl> ubuntugeek: of course they are good enough, their voice counts
<jono> ubuntugeek: hang on a sec, lets ensure we are all clear on what we interpreted
<ubuntugeek> then finalize it and we can move on..
<sabdfl> but the Forums Governance doc does not ask for "seconds from some admins or staff members"
<sabdfl> it says the CC will not appoint folks without consulting the staff and members
<sabdfl> mikeb had very widespread forums community support as a representative during these discussions
<sabdfl> which is why i think the CC is happy to say that the forums staff and members have really been consulted
<sabdfl> but matthew was not really part of that process
<sabdfl> i think forums members will be very happy to have a thread on this nomination, and i've no doubt it will reflect well on matthew
<sabdfl> given everything that's been said
<sabdfl> but i don't think the CC would be meeting its obligations under the FG doc, if we just +1 matthew
<ubuntugeek> i figured this would be like this.. thats why i was hesitant to even move forward..
<jenda> Someone will have to resort to compromise here. I believe we should leave matthew as pending, as he is 1) not here to tell us he wants to do it 2) hasn't been discussed by the forum staff, although all of us present agree with him taking the spot.
<sabdfl> without any evidence of a broad consultation of the forums members and staff
<mako> i don't really have strong feelings either way on this
<PriceChild> +1 jenda
<ubuntu_demon> +1 jenda
<MikeB-> +1 jenda
<ubuntu_demon> there are some forum staff right here to support matthew though.
<sabdfl> "some staff" is not the same as "open consultation"
<jenda> sabdfl: +1
<sabdfl> right, and certainly not the same as "consulting forums members"
<sabdfl> i think it's obvious that a thread on the forums is the right way to get that open consultation
<sabdfl> which is why i'm suggesting ubuntugeek lead that
<sabdfl> and come back for a +1 on matthew once that's done
<zarul> I think you should make a decision here, it seems that we are dragging this issue to no ends...
<ubuntu_demon> then maybe we can do a staff poll and have a new CC meeting quickly (like next week) to get him on the FC and move on ?
<jenda> matthew has not been publically discussed, and I don't see a problem with waiting till next time, till matthew can make it, or till we have at least given a chance to other forum staff to have a say.
<mako> the agreement as i understood it was that the the admins/ubuntugeek would pick the extra two members.. but i think a consultation by the focums community/staff would probably be a good thing in either case.. since it seems that anything other than a confirmation is unlikely, i don't see any issue with doing it for matthew or even matthew and MikeB-
<zarul> *you guys
<sabdfl> matthew is NOT EVEN HERE
<mako> right, i think matthew should at least show up to a CC meeting
<ubuntugeek> BECAUSE HE COULDNT BE
<somerville32> !caps
<sabdfl> ubuntugeek: well, let's find a time that suits him
<maxamillion> <3 somerville32
<jono> ok, lets calm down
<mako> and he probably wouldn't mind seeing a thread about how everything thinks he's great :)
<sabdfl> sorry
<PriceChild> mako: lol :)
<cjwatson> what timezone's he in? looks like -6
<cjwatson> oh, no, I'm on crack
<cjwatson> GMT
<ubuntu_demon> IMHO let's arrange a CC meeting with matthew attending asap (like next week or something).
<cjwatson> (managed to confuse Morocco with Mexico)
<jenda> (there should be a meeting soon anyway, because a lot will be left over from this one so:)
<jenda> ubuntu_demon: +1
<EmxBA> concentrate on members that applied for membership on CommunityCouncilAgenda wiki page, if possible...?
<zarul> EmxBA + 1
<jenda> EmxBA: this seems like a more pressing issue to me.
<LoudMouthMan> please . since the ukteam are mostly at work and thinking about heading home !
<zarul> I have to go in 20 minutes....
<PriceChild> EmxBA: I'm standing for membership too but being members is slightly insignificant compared
<cjwatson> it's not all going to get done - we're just going to have to do what wee can
<cjwatson> we
<zarul> it is like 1.30 in the morning and I am at a cyber cafe right now, as I am away from hom
<EmxBA> ok, I'll be patient
<zarul> *home
<kalon33> sure PriceChild
<jono> ok, lets clarify the position where we are now
<zarul> the cafe is closing soon
<jono> ubuntugeek: still there?
<sabdfl> zarul: appreciate your participation, will get to you before it closes
* MacSlow is patient too... early evening here for him
<ubuntugeek> yes
<jono> excellent :)
* popey has a pint waiting for him
<jono> ubuntugeek: what is core your objection at this point?
<jono> just to be 100% clear
<sabdfl> ubuntugeek: from what I have seen the CC has no objection to matthew as a candidate
<ubuntugeek> that my fears about this process have shown to be true regarding how this process is going to work.
<sabdfl> but there is some concern that the process needs to be followed
<sabdfl> the process is pretty clear in the FG doc we just approved
<ubuntugeek> there (was) no process before this
<sabdfl> that's all
<ubuntugeek> this is clean/new document
<ubuntugeek> a start..
<newz2000> sorry to interupt, but I've got to go visit family in hospital now, I'm here to give a +1 for mruiz - he's been extremely active in trying to get latin america loco teams coordinated and really is busy trying to make things better for spanish speaking loco teams and ubuntu users
<sabdfl> i have no doubt the CC would +1 matthew after a thread on the forums discussing his candidacy
<jono> ubuntugeek: lets give the process a chance - and the agreement which you seem broadly happy with is there to secure a good, honest, consistent process
<sabdfl> i assume no major controvery emerging in that thread, given the unilateral support
<sabdfl> but it's important to show that we want the FG doc to mean something
<cjwatson> ubuntugeek: I'm not clear on what your fears are; I don't see anything going particularly wrong ...
<jono> much of this is just due process ubuntugeek
<sabdfl> i would have called for discussion on MikeB too, except I think we all feel that has already happened, in effect
<sabdfl> newz2000: thank for the +1 on mruiz, noted
<MikeB-> sabdfl: I'm willing to wait a month to allow discussion
<jono> many of us got to know MikeB- and his excellent contributions at the UDS
<jono> I am sure if we knew Matthew as well, everyone would approach this the same
<sabdfl> and the MikeB- was really mandated by the forums community as a representative alread
<sabdfl> y
<jono> ubuntugeek: see what I mean?
<MikeB-> it is only fair if Matthew and I get the same treatment
<zarul> sorry to interrupt guys, I am worry that I won't be able to wait longer, just in case I have to go out any time soon, here is the link to my profile: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ZarulShahrin
<mako> ubuntugeek: if you think it's more fair, we might ask for comments on both.. i tend to think it would be
* mako nods to MikeB- 
<sabdfl> i'm happy with that too, let's get to zarul
<cjwatson> it seems a bit artificial, we're obviously all happy with MikeB
<cjwatson> but shrug
<zarul> thank you sabdfl
<jono> MikeB-: I think you are getting the same treatment, its just that the CC are not as familiar with Matthew (yet)
<mako> cjwatson: fwiw, i'm also happy with matthew
<EmxBA> zarul:
* somerville32 cheers on Zarul.
<EmxBA> +1 for zarul
<sabdfl> zarul: what's your LP account? URL?
<ubuntu_demon> any input from ubuntugeek ?
<ubuntugeek> nothing further we wont move forward until this is resolved
<sabdfl> zarul: seems you have been active for more than a year?
<zarul> https://launchpad.net/people/zarulshahrin/
<sabdfl> that's great
<zarul> sabdfl yes
<cjwatson> I think the current action is for a thread to be opened on the forums about matthew
<ubuntu_demon> ubuntugeek : so we can move forward after Matthew is approved at the next CC meeting ?
<zarul> I founded MalaysianTeam in May last year
<zarul> If I am not wrong
<zarul> and I tried hard to promote it here
<jono> ubuntugeek: how would you like to see it resolved
<ubuntugeek> ubuntu_demon: no it needs to be done this meeting.. there are enough people here to back matthew.. i
<zarul> and I am happy that we are growing now
<sabdfl> ok, +1 from me on zarul, long participation, active advocacy, and team leadership
<jono> (sorry, I know we have two threads here being discussed)
<mako> +1 for me for zarul
<ubuntugeek> the process in which you elect is flawed..
<ubuntu_demon> Maybe we can focus on forumsgovernance first ? I would hate to see it break apart while we have made this much good progress.
<ubuntugeek> if you cant agree on matthew today then dont agree on mikeb
<zarul> thank you all
<sabdfl> elmo? cjwatson, zarul?
<elmo> fine with zarul.. but let's try and get FG finished?
<cjwatson> +1 on zarul, though would like to see the malaysian team up for approval soon too since zarul's application is largely on that :-)
<jono> ubuntu_demon: this is just a quick side discussion before zarul leaves
<cjwatson> T-9 minutes for me
<sabdfl> i'd like to ask the CC if they think (a) the position is the CC should follow the FG doc in appointing the 2 new FC members, or if (b) the 3 forums admins should be appointing them
<sabdfl> for me it is clearly (a)
<cjwatson> well, I do sort of wonder why the FG doc exists if it isn't true :-)
<zarul> So if everything is ok, can I leave now?
<sabdfl> for my next act, i'll be standing for head of the united nations... would be easier!
<sabdfl> zarul: congrats and welcome!
<gnomefreak> zarul: congrats
<zarul> ok
<sabdfl> (and good night, safe travels home)
<zarul> thank you all for voting
<zarul> cya!
<mako> alright
<mako> i need to run right now
<ubuntugeek> Like I said, when i walked away from our conversations at mds .. the other two people were going to be selected by the curent admins
<mako> i'll be back in maybe 30-45 minutes
<MacSlow> sabdfl, this whole stuff here is so intense... a bit frightening... but most impressive nevertheless.
<mako> but if it comes to a vote on approval of matthew, i would be happy to have him now
<ubuntugeek> to form the initial fc team.
<PriceChild> So the meeting is basically postponed in 5 minutes until mako returns...
<cjwatson> I've driven LP for new members up to now (mike.basinger and zarulshahrin), but somebody else will need to take over now
<mako> PriceChild: there are three member present
<mako> you can work without me
<sabdfl> mako: (a) or (b)?
<cjwatson> mako: two as of 7 minutes from now
<PriceChild> mako: cjwatson said something about 9 minutes
<mako> sabdfl: what?
<cjwatson> mako: 17:36 < sabdfl> i'd like to ask the CC if they think (a) the position is the CC should follow the FG doc in appointing the 2 new FC members, or if (b) the 3 forums admins should be appointing them
<elmo> I think (a) makes the most sense, simply because this is going to be the FC for the next year or so
<mako> cjwatson: for the initial bootstrap phase, that is right now, i think (b) would be appropriate and in line with our previous discussions
<cjwatson> FWIW I've no objection to generally following the forums admins' recommendations, but I'd like a chance to actually evaluate rather than just rubber-stamp, that's all
<mako> but i'm not opposed to (a) either don't really see why anybody would be
<sabdfl> ok, so 3 for (a) and 1 for (b)
<cjwatson> I can only be +0 on matthew simply because I've never talked to him
<mako> it will only make the position of those people more justified in the eyes of their constituency
<ubuntugeek> ok i am done here
<sabdfl> and matthew is not here now
<ubuntugeek> good day
<cjwatson> I don't *object*, just it's impossible to say an outright yes
<MikeB-> ryan , please wait
<mako> alright.. i need to disappear.. sorry!
<sabdfl> ok, i will start the thread on the forums, to give the staff and users an opportunity to discuss matthew
<jenda> ...
<mako> a lab sponsor is waiting
<sabdfl> if mikeb prefer to be on the same platform, then that's fine too
<mako> bbiab
<jenda> That doesn't help the forums, does it :/
<ubuntu_demon> Can we please schedule a new CC meeting very soon to handle this FG ?
<PriceChild> :(
<MikeB-> nope
<sabdfl> ubuntu_demon: yes
<sabdfl> MikeB-: ?
<ubuntugeek> wrong window.. i am going to watch this mess that is all
<sabdfl> ok
<sabdfl> next?
<ubuntugeek> clearly what we discussed on the phone about this and how its playing out here is two different things
<EmxBA> can CC consider my candidation for member approval?
<cjwatson> surely worst case the practical effect is that it takes two weeks longer to get the FC going? I really don't see the big deal
<gnomefreak> EmxBA: we are running low on CC memebers
<EmxBA> i see
<MacSlow> hi BenC
<BenC> hello
<kalon33> hi BenC
<mc44> ubuntugeek: if athread is opened on matthew and there is a concensus then the CC approves him to the FC, would you be happy to move forward
<somerville32> sabdfl, Next on the agenda would be Call for nominations for the "Localisation / Translation Team Leader".
<elmo> ubuntugeek: FWIW, I couldn't confidently claim that (a) is what was agreed to on the phone, it's possible it _was_ (b), but would you not be willing to consider (a) and the (IMO) advantages it has?
<sabdfl> which forum would be the appropriate one for me to start those threads?
<MacSlow> somerville32, was topic regarding IRC/Freenode skipped?
<somerville32> MacSlow: no.
<gnomefreak> MacSlow: no we are staying on freenode
<markvandenborre> it was discussed in the beginning
<ubuntu_demon> hi BenC
<MacSlow> somerville32, gnomefreak: ah so just the wiki-page is missing an update here ? Try reloading
<sabdfl> i think (a) vs (b) was never explicitly discussed, i assumed it was clearly (a), ubuntugeek obviously assumed differently
<PriceChild> sabdfl: Cafe... and we could sticky it?
<cjwatson> ok, I have to go, sorry folks
<sabdfl> nonetheless, the CC voted for following the FG document process
<MacSlow> cu cjwatson
<ubuntugeek> elmo: sure the issue i have is if you can't back both right now don't back either
<gnomefreak> see  you cjwatson
<sabdfl> thanks cjwatson
<sabdfl> ubuntugeek: that's fine, i think MikeB has said he's open to that
<kalon33> good bye cjwatson
<jono> ok ubuntugeek is here
<sabdfl> so i will open two threads
<elmo> ubuntugeek: sure, that's perfectly reasonable, happy to do that
<ubuntugeek> now i still strongly object to to the way its handled
<elmo> ubuntugeek: in what way?
<ubuntugeek> if you cant trust us to form an initial team then clearly down the road we will have the same issues
<sabdfl> it's Mike Basinger and Matthew ?
<gnomefreak> sabdfl: can we set a meeting for either later this week sometime next week to finish the forums item. since the threads will be open it should be a fast vote?
<MikeB-> sabdfl and ubuntugeek: I'm fine with that
<elmo> ubuntugeek: we can and do trust you, we've all provisionally +1'ed on both mike and matthew.  the issue is that we'd like the forums community to have a chance to participate
<sabdfl> what's Matthew's surname?
<sabdfl> and forums nicks for both?
<ubuntugeek> matthew
<ubuntugeek> mike
<ubuntu_demon> Mike Basinger's nick is mike
<jenda> sabdfl: https://launchpad.net/people/matthelmke
<elmo> ubuntugeek: this after all is going to be their forums council for a year, it seems fair to given them a chance to have some input, don't you think?
<jenda> Helmke
<jono> ubuntugeek: do you feel the forums community will be happy with mikeb and matthew on the FC
<jenda> ^ there goes one of our admins :/ he didn't seem too talkative today anyway.
<ubuntugeek> jono: yep i do
<jono> ubuntugeek: if so, why not just let the due process happen if the community would be happen with them?
<ubuntugeek> jono: thats fine do as you wish
<sabdfl>   http://www.ubuntuforums.com/showthread.php?p=1876854#post1876854
<jono> ubuntugeek: ok, so you are happy for us to continue?
<jenda> So - would everyone agree with this: we open a thread on the staff forums now, and ask staff to approve the 5 member council as discussed here. If there are no objections by the next CC meeting - we consider it complete?
<MikeB-> could we start a Forum council area in the forums and have Matthew and I FC  voted discuessed and voted on there, all people could read, but only forum staff and CC members could write?
<sabdfl> what's matthew's surname?
<ubuntugeek> matthew
<SD-Plissken> jenda sabdfl alread started a topic in the cafe it seems
<ubuntugeek> jono: sure i dont really have a choice
<sabdfl> surname, not nick?
<ubuntugeek> jono: you guys got me by the balls this time around..
<jono> ubuntugeek: you *do* have a choice - this is not about forcing something out of you - it is about asking if you are happy with due process
<jenda> sabdfl: Helmke
<jono> ubuntugeek: if you are happy with that, we can move forward
<ubuntugeek> jono: thats fine.. so to recap.. FG is approved and the FC +3 admins is approved..
<ubuntugeek> correct?
<MacSlow> hi matthewrevell
<sabdfl> http://www.ubuntuforums.com/showthread.php?p=1876865#post1876865
<MikeB-> how is the baby matthewrevell
<sabdfl> ubuntugeek: yes
<ubuntugeek> ok
<sabdfl> FC consisting of 3 current admins
<ubuntugeek> Next time.. lets be more clear on how this is going to work
<sabdfl> fair enough
<ubuntugeek> and id idnt even swear today :)
<jono> ubuntugeek: I think we can always improve communication - 95% of problems are simply misunderstandings
<sabdfl> ok, could you guys make those threads sticky, and give them a wide pumping for wide discussion?
<jono> ubuntugeek: :P
<PriceChild> sabdfl: shall i rename both topics to "Potential..." instead of just the one?
<mneptok> ubuntugeek: it's never too late >:)
<ubuntugeek> sabdfl: sure
<MikeB-> ubuntugeek: beard
<ubuntugeek> and goddamn it.. i hope this gets done with soon..
<ubuntugeek> ;)
<sabdfl> PriceChild: technically, they HAVE been nominated, and the CC is looking for background to make the appointments
<ubuntu_demon> Will the CC schedule an extra meeting soon ? Instead of having to wait for a month ?
<jenda> ubuntugeek: except for the 'balls' part ;)
<ubuntugeek> jenda: balls isnt swearing
<elmo> ubuntu_demon: yes
<jenda> 
<sabdfl> alrighty!
<ubuntu_demon> great
<jono> balls!
<jono> :P
<popey> \o/ balls
<PriceChild> sabdfl: its just odd having the "Potential" the wrong way around considering discussions that have already taken part
<jono> good stuff
<sabdfl> jono wants to be the 1000000th person to say "balls" on TV
<jono> popey: too excited about balls there...
<sabdfl> with feeling
<jono> woo!
<sabdfl> what's next?
<mneptok> ubuntugeek: it's never too late >:) (x2)
<ubuntugeek> menptok: if i really could unleash i would trust me :)
<sabdfl> UK team?
<popey> \o/
<MacSlow> sabdfl, call for nominations on "Localisation / Translation Team Leader"  I believe
<PriceChild> isn't there only 2 CC members present right now?
* popey pokes LoudMouthMan with a stick
<LoudMouthMan> huh what ?
<sabdfl> some things i think we can +1 with me and one other
<sabdfl> so loco's we can do, members we can do
<somerville32> :)
<GazzaK> yay, great
<mneptok> ooo! members?! let people applying or vouching move on?
<PriceChild> good good :)
* popey says YAY really really quietly
<sabdfl> ok, loco's - UK team?
<sabdfl> go go go!
<jenda> sabdfl: are we changing the rules in the middle of the game here? :)
<ubuntu_demon> One question : should we defer Forum Staff to become Ubuntu Member until the next meeting so the CC can guide the FC at the next meeting ? That might be a nice way of smoothing the membership approval process
<sabdfl> niiice wiki page
<sabdfl> jenda: i do have a casting vote
<jenda> sabdfl: I'm not arguing 
<sabdfl> i think we can auto+1 all current forums staff for membership right away
<sabdfl> elmo?
<jenda> sabdfl: really?
<PriceChild> sabdfl: really?
<PriceChild> :D
<elmo> as long as they've been staff for > 1 month, sure
<popey> LoudMouthMan: you're on
<sabdfl> fair enough
<PriceChild> sabdfl: those that are applying of course.... not all want it
<ubuntu_demon> sabdfl : some forum staff might not want to become Ubuntu Members
<LoudMouthMan> Sorry , I can see a UKteam conversarion I just cant see the question  ?
<sabdfl> i *think* FG makes that a must-do?
<kalon33> sorry, got a bug...
<popey> agenda item is up now LoudMouthMan
<PriceChild> sabdfl: I thought it only meant they should abide by the CoC...
<sabdfl> ok
<sabdfl> you're right
<ubuntugeek> sabdfl: we cant force them to be ubuntu members
<elmo> PriceChild: that's implied by "auto+1", we wouldn't force membership on anyone
<PriceChild> just checking :)
<LoudMouthMan> Yes, okay well the UKTeam is applying for Approval and submitted its application to Jono for the councils consideration.
<ubuntugeek> we have alot of good staff who just dont want to be that deep into it..
<sabdfl> so, who's here, forums staff for more than 1 month?
<PriceChild> I know several feel strongly about that
<PriceChild> sabdfl: Me me me!!!
<LoudMouthMan> but , popey , i think theres a overhanging thread here  .
<MikeB-> +1 for pricechild
<SD-Plissken> What is price of being an ubuntumember pricechild. what do you have to give up to be a member such a team..
<ubuntu_demon> +1 for pricechild :)
<gnomefreak> sabdfl: i would like to cheer for a few memebers i hav e ameeting to go to. i +1 for Christoffer Karvonen TravisWatkins Tony Yarusso and CodySomerville
<sabdfl> confirm PriceChild is forums staff / moderator for more than a month?
<ubuntugeek> +1 for all our staff who wants it
<PriceChild> SD-Plissken: I don't believe there's anything I have to give up...
<sabdfl> thanks gnomefreak
<gnomefreak> :) later
<sabdfl> PriceChild: what's your launchpad nick?
<ubuntu_demon> sabdfl : yes pricechild has been Forum Staff for more than one month
<frodon> +1 for PriceChild
<PriceChild> https://launchpad.net/people/pricechild/
<jenda> sabdfl, elmo, just a BTW, there is a LP team indicating the forums staff: https://launchpad.net/people/ubuntuforums-staff
<jenda> I can't guarantee it's 100% accurate, some of the new ones may be missing.
<PriceChild> SD-Plissken: becoming a member means I am bound by the CoC. This is just common decency to me and therefore in my opinon nothing to give up
<kalon33> do you process by alphabetical order to consider ubuntu member candidates ?
<sabdfl> PriceChild: congrats, and welcome!
<PriceChild> Thanks :D
<LoudMouthMan> sabdfl you asked about UKTeam, we have submitted the approval page for councils consideration do you have any further questinos ?
<theCore> are going to have enough time to do some member nominations, today?
* PriceChild dances
<apokryphos> PriceChild: being an ubuntero bounds you to that too. Little more to it.
<ubuntu_demon> congrats pricechild ! :)
<SD-Plissken> Thats all Pricechild.. hope there was no fine print.. lol
<kalon33> congrats PriceChild
<effie_jayx> PriceChild,  :D
<frodon> congrats pricey ;)
<sabdfl> LoudMouthMan: sorry, got diverted into low-hanging-fruit forums moderator membership approvals
<sabdfl> anybody else in the forums moderator applying for membership crowd?
<ubuntugeek> I just spoke with Kingbahamut please +1 him for ubuntu meber he is an exceptional forum staff member..
<ubuntugeek> he is unable to get on irc
<ubuntu_demon> mikeB is applying for Ubuntu membership
<ubuntugeek> ud: we already did mikeb
<sabdfl> ubuntugeek: LP name?
<PriceChild> ubuntu_demon: MikeB has already been accepted hasn't he?
<sabdfl> yes, he has
<sabdfl> matthew?
<PriceChild> matthew is already a member isn't he?
<sabdfl> is approved already
<ubuntu_demon> ow sorry okay :)
<elmo> ok, you guys get -0.005 for using "syngeristic" in your approval application wiki page
<sabdfl> ubuntugeek: LP name for KingBahamut?
<elmo> (synergistic even or however it's spelt)
<ubuntu_demon> elmo : what does syngreristic mean ?
<elmo> ubuntu_demon: ... exactly ;-)
<ubuntugeek> Bill weber
<mneptok> syringerific
<PriceChild> https://launchpad.net/people/gwosbahamut
<EmxBA> sorry, bad connection :)
<PriceChild> ^ KingBahamut
<elmo> anyway, I'm +1 on the UK team
<elmo> (sorry, if we haven't got back to the loco team yet)
<GazzaK> :-) thanks elmo
<sabdfl> as far as i can see, he has not applied for ubuntumember
<jono> the UK team have done some excellent work
<jenda> King Bahamut has also been doing some impressive work on doc.gwos.org/com
<ubuntu_demon> +1 for King Bahamut
<jono> they have a strong structure and a number of keen contributors - they also have a good direction forward
<jono> +1 for me
<MikeB-> +1 for me
<SD-Plissken> +1 for King Bahamut
<PriceChild> +1 KB
<frodon> +1 for KingBahamut as well
<PriceChild> +1 UKTeam
<sabdfl> ok, kingbahamut is done
<sabdfl> +1 from me on the UK team
<popey> w000t
<apokryphos> nice 8)
* GazzaK skips about a bit, thanks
<jamesbrose> yay!
<popey> Go us!
* jayteeuk cheers
<LoudMouthMan> So , sabdfl can I report back to the UKTeam that we have apporval ?  and thanks to everyone for the votes, it is much appreciated.
<sabdfl> LoudMouthMan: all done - and welcome!
<sabdfl> very classy wiki page
<somerville32> Burgwork, ping.
<sabdfl> the status chart for projects is particularly cool, IMO
<Burgwork> somerville32: pong
<LoudMouthMan> sabdfl thank you , I will pass the comments on to the team.
<ubuntugeek> +1 for SD-plissken for ubutnu-member he is a staff as well..
* MacSlow hands the voting crowd these URLs https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Macslow https://launchpad.net/people/macslow
<anto9us> woohoo!
<Amaranth> woo i made it
<jono> congrats LoudMouthMan
<ubuntu_demon> +1 for SD-plissken
<jono> LoudMouthMan: I look forward to you leveraging synergies and fullfilling verticale markets
<GazzaK> lol @ jono
* MagicFab rotfl
<popey> HOUSE!
<frodon> +1 for SD-plissken as well
<jenda> SD-Plissken has been a good moderator for several months
<LoudMouthMan> jono indeed, ill run those ideas up the flag pole soon enough
<GazzaK> if he starts on that, I'm moving to tibet
<frodon> LP : https://launchpad.net/people/sd-plissken
<EmxBA> can someone consider my application for becoming ubuntu member?
<sabdfl> SD-Plissken: done, welcome aboard
<PriceChild> well done SD
<MikeB-> EmxBA:  what is your wiki
<ubuntu_demon> congrats SD-Plissken :)
<markvandenborre> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MarkVanDenBorre
<jenda> EmxBA: can you link to your wiki and LP to make it easier?
<frodon> congrat SD-Plissken :)
<SD-Plissken> Thanks all
<EmxBA> wiki https://wiki.ubuntu.com/EmirBeganovic and LP  https://launchpad.net/people/emxba
<sabdfl> MacSlow has an excellent track record upstream
<sabdfl> also made good contributions at UDS Mountain View
<kalon33> congrats SD-Plissken
<theCore> are we at the memberships yet?
<EmxBA> i've signed CoC, haev more than 80k+ karma points, translated many things into bosnian language
<dholbach> MacSlow is my favourite friendly flipping hacker in the Ubuntu community and I'm happy to see his cairo-clock in Ubuntu's Universe already.
<PriceChild> theCore: sort of
* popey throws his https://launchpad.net/people/alanpope and https://wiki.ubuntu.com/AlanPope to the baying masses
<somerville32> Can we finish up the locoteam approvals and then come back to Membership approval? :] 
<sabdfl> MacSlow: where are you making ubuntu-specific contributions
<theCore> then, ping me we it's my turn
* MacSlow points to seb128, sabdfl, jono, dholbach, matthewrevell as his 'fan-club' :)
<sabdfl> ?
<MagicFab> LP: https://launchpad.net/people/magicfab
<MacSlow> sabdfl, https://launchpad.net/people/macslow/+packages
<La_PaRCa> I am MagicFab's fanclub
<MacSlow> my upstream http://macslow.thepimp.net/cairo-clock
<seb128> MacSlow is doing some good job
<MikeB-> EmxBA: impressive translations, +1 from me
<EmxBA> my translations - https://translations.launchpad.net/people/emxba/+translations
<sabdfl> sorry guys, one at a time, and I messed up by jumping to macslow
<MacSlow> I do a bit guerilla-marketing KungFu on enemy-territory -> http://www.flickr.com/photos/41128780@N00/296376139 http://www.flickr.com/photos/41128780@N00/296376031 http://www.flickr.com/photos/41128780@N00/296375822 http://www.flickr.com/photos/41128780@N00/197579312
<seb128> nice to have cairo-clock to universe and him around looking at bling ;)
<sabdfl> but let's wrap up with him, then do everyone else in order of the agenda
* MagicFab crawls back in position
<seb128> looks really good
<sabdfl> ok, +1 from me for MacSlow on the basis of packaging contributions and votes form seb and dholbach
<elmo> +1 for MacSlow too
<sabdfl> welcome aboard, MacSlow
<popey> congrats MacSlow
<kalon33> Congrats MacSlow
<dholbach> and what I saw from the future ubuntu hacks department already looks great too :-)
<MacSlow> sabdfl, cool thanks!
<elmo> ok, who's up next?
* dholbach hugs MacSlow
<elmo> johan lundmark - here?
* MacSlow does a back-flip of rejoice :)
<sabdfl> MacSlow: could you edit your LP display name to be "Mirco Mueller" with all the right dots?
<seb128> MacSlow: well done ;)
<MikeB-> later all, have a meeting at work. thanks for lively discussion
<ubuntu_demon> congrats MaCSlow
<markvandenborre> elmo, Iranian team?
<ubuntu_demon> bye MikeB-
<MacSlow> thanks everybody!
<elmo> ah, we missed some loco teams
<elmo> ok, skipping back
<fernando> congrats MacSlow
<elmo> canadian or iranian loco team represnetatives here?
<tonyyarusso> lophyte: Burgwork ping
<kalon33> jono: canadian loco team representative ?
<tonyyarusso> elmo: I'm a member - but not who was going to be representing.
<ubuntugeek> bye all
<elmo> tonyyarusso: who was?
<MagicFab> I am a member too
<sabdfl> tonyyarusso: you could still present
<MagicFab> URL: https://launchpad.net/people/ubuntu-ca
<kalon33> bye ubuntugeek
<jono> kalon33: I don't know who it is, but they have not popped up yet
<somerville32> elmo: Our leader, Burgundavia :] 
<tonyyarusso> elmo: Burgwork , preferably, but I think he might be having issues with being caught at work
<MagicFab> Also - http://ubuntu-ca.org/
<elmo> Burgwork: ping?
<jono> ahhh corey runs the team?
<jono> ok
<tonyyarusso> yes
<somerville32> We had a meeting just the other day too, we're making some good head way :] 
<sabdfl> ok, i'm sure corey will be here in a future meeting
<tonyyarusso> Yep - see meeting logs from Sat night UTC-6
<sabdfl> let's kepe going with members
<sabdfl> keep, that is
<MacSlow> sabdfl, move both, my launchpad- and wiki-page, to MircoMueller instead of MacSlow?!
<tonyyarusso> (He might be back yet today too - will let you know)
<somerville32> What about Iranian Team?
<MagicFab> MacSlow, you can redirect, I'll show you how (msg)
<elmo> somerville32: I don't think they have a representative here
<jono> somerville32: no representation here
<sabdfl> MacSlow: just change the "display name" (not the account name) on the LP one
<somerville32> Alrighty :] 
<elmo> ok, so members
<sabdfl> macslow is fine as an account name
<MacSlow> sabdfl, ah ok
<sabdfl> Johan Lundmark?
<markvandenborre> the first 5 were already taken care of in the previous meeting
<elmo> sabdfl: nope
<markvandenborre> but not scrapped for some reason
<ubuntu_demon> I'll be away. Ping me if you need me.
<sabdfl> markvandenborre: you're up!
<markvandenborre> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MarkVanDenBorre
<markvandenborre> Belgian team lead
<sabdfl> were the first 5 all approved?
<sabdfl> duelling banjos!
<elmo> sabdfl: andrew wasn't yet
<elmo> sabdfl: michael biena was
<sabdfl> wow, awesome list of contributions, markvandenborre
<sabdfl> how's the belgian free software scene shaping up?
<elmo> sabdfl: paul schulz was.. [shall I just edit the wiki page? :)] 
<markvandenborre> it's rocking... you really should come to FOSDEM and experience it yourself
<sabdfl> elmo: i'm editing...
<elmo> sabdfl: ok, Sridhar Dhanapalan  was also approved
<sabdfl> ok, very clear +1 from me for mark on the back of a very long period of participation and lots of diverse contributions
<La_PaRCa> haha, you even have an endorsements section
<GnuKemist> markvandenborre: seems to represent the Belgium team's best interest really well
<markvandenborre> sabdfl, thx!
<elmo> +1 for mark
<sabdfl> welcome aboard, mark!
<kalon33> congrats markvandenborre !
<dinda> Congrats Mark V!
<seanh> I have to leave in about 15 mins., I'm applying for membership
<jono> congrats markvandenborre
<JanC> congrats looksaus  ;)
<kalon33> me too... :/
* markvandenborre jumping around & smiling
<MacSlow> markvandenborre, congratulations
<GnuKemist> markvandenborre: sing that Belgium song you were singing at the UDS  ;)
<markvandenborre> :)
<elmo> seanh: ok, let's do you now then
<markvandenborre> bye
<sabdfl> seanh: very nice page, too
<seanh> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SeanHammond
<sabdfl> congrats on the oo.o advocacy!
<seanh> thanks
<sabdfl> +1 from me for seanh, on the back of very extensive advocacy
<elmo> seanh: "I've been contributing to Ubuntu for two or three years." .. careful, almost in danger of time warping ;-)
<Burgwork> elmo: sorry, work is absolutely crazy here
<Burgwork> I am here now
<seanh> heh, well, since the first release
<elmo> but +1 from me also for seanh
<MacSlow> seanh, gee you've been busy!
<sabdfl> ok, welcome aboard, seanh!
<seanh> cool, thanks
<elmo> Burgwork: ok, let's do .ca loco now then?
<kalon33> congrats seanh
<Burgwork> elmo: lets go
<elmo> (sorry, just reading)
<Amaranth> *cricket*
<MacSlow> elmo, anything right now still needed for newly approved members to do?
<elmo> Burgwork: anything I should know ;-)
<jonh_wendell> Hi, folks. When you can, please consider me for member approval
<Burgwork> we are a pretty active with, with many of our members active in other ubuntu teams
* mneptok raises a claw
<Amaranth> jonh_wendell: we're almost to you, just hang on a bit
* MagicFab is a member of ubuntu-ca, organizing ubuntu-qc
<Burgwork> and we have the canonical support office
* mneptok raises the other claw for qc
<Burgwork> although it is questionable how much work they actually do :)
<jono> I just looked at the canadian application
<jono> I think there needs to be a better fleshed out roadmap
<sabdfl> Burgwork: errrr
<sivang> heh
<sivang> (hi all)
<jono> if the team could expand and possibly delegate volunteers to the roadmap, I think we are looking good
<EmxBA> http://pastebin.ca/276788 - that's something about me
<Burgwork> jono: sure
<jono> Burgwork: if you can expand the roadmap and I am happy to approve if the CC would like me to
<Burgwork> jono: now or on the wiki?
<MagicFab> Burgwork, I can chip in that roadmap - we already have some work on that here (QC)
<jono> Burgwork: later on the wiki
<Burgwork> ok, will do
<jono> I just think you need to better clarify your direction :)
<Burgwork> alright
<jamonation> Burgwork, jono lophyte says he's happy to help with that
<jono> sabdfl: elmo happy if I look over the Canadian team's update roadmap and if it is suitable approe it?
<tonyyarusso> I think that is beginning to get better, as we are planning to do regular meetings now.
<elmo> jono: works for me
<tonyyarusso> There's a lot going on, so the mtgs will help everyone know what they are and where they stand.
<kalon33> Sorry elmo, jono, sabdfl, all, I'm a candidate for becoming an Ubuntu member and I've to go in 15 minutes... :/
<sabdfl> jono: perfectly
<jono> ok cool
<elmo> ok, so
<elmo> kalon33: your next, go
<jono> Burgwork: ping me when it is updated
<Burgwork> jono: will do
<kalon33> now elmo ?
<elmo> kalon33: yes
<kalon33> thanks
<kalon33> Hello all, I'm kalon33, and my real name is Nicolas Derive. I'm a French student in biology at Bordeaux 2 university. My contributions to ubuntu are translations, bugs report and triage, and support to other users. Details are availiable on my wiki page. Any questions ?
<kalon33> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/kalon33
<MagicFab> What's the order ?
<elmo> MagicFab: the order's pretty flexible right now, because we haven't had a meeting in so long - we normally go in application order
<kalon33> sorry MagicFab... I apologize for it...
<elmo> kalon33: how long have you been around and doing translations, triage etc.?
<MagicFab> well, go kalon33
<kalon33> since Dapper for translations and bug report (because I tested it too)
<kalon33> triage for... 2 or 3 months
<elmo> kalon33: ok
<kalon33> and support for 1-2 months I think.
<elmo> +1 from me for kalon33 on the basis of his translation and triage work
<elmo> sabdfl: ?
<kalon33> I'm using Ubuntu since July 2005, and started Dapper testing on January 2006.
<sabdfl> +1 - welcome aboard kalon33!
<elmo> ok, who's next in order
<kalon33> and Edgy in July.
<elmo> theCore: still here?
<kalon33> thanks elmo, sabdfl
<theCore> yes
<theCore> I'm Alexandre Vassalotti, a Science student in Quebec, Canada. I plan to go in Computer Science and I will probably do a career as a software developer. I been active in the Ubuntu community for a little bit more than a year. I'm currently mastering Python and C. I plan to use my skills to make Ubuntu even better. -- https://wiki.ubuntu.com/AlexandreVassalotti
* kalon33 is very happy !
<EtienneG> theCore, where are you located ?  I am in Mtl, used to live in Qubec City
<MagicFab> theCore, consider joining https://launchpad.net/people/ubuntu-qc :)
<theCore> EtienneG: near Montreal
<jbailey> As all the Qubec folks poke their heads in. =)
<EtienneG> yes ... *please*
<theCore> EtienneG: Ile Perrot
<Keybuk> Alexandre did the upstart logo </trivia>
<tonyyarusso> theCore also is one of the folks who gives quizzes in #ubuntu-trivia for a mix of fun and learning.  :)
<Keybuk> so has my full support :)
<EtienneG> theCore, cool
<GazzaK> triva is great :-)
<theCore> MagicFab: sure
<EtienneG> are active in MLUG andor FACIL ?
<kalon33> +1 for theCore, who works a lot with support and bug triage.
* mneptok waves a a fleur-de-lis
<kalon33> goodbye all, thanks for all :)
<anto9us> theCore has worked very hard in lots of areas one of which has been the IRC channel #ubuntu-trivia to which he's given unselfish and unrelenting commitment to the education and entertainment of others, it's growing popular too :)
<sfllaw> I'm throwing in my hat for theCore as well.
<dholbach> the whole -ca mafia is around :)
<elmo> ok, +1 from me to theCore on the basis of his incredible support work etc.
<Amaranth> Can I go next? I've got to leave soon.
<elmo> sabdfl: ?
<jenda> I can definitely vouch for theCore :)
<mako-away> hmm
<sivang> Amaranth: aren't already a member? :)
<Amaranth> sivang: sort of
<mako> fortunately, or perhaps unfortunately for those here, things still seem to be in metion :)
<jenda> Based on amazing work with #ubuntu-trivia and some contribution to UWN
<Amaranth> sivang: that's why i'm hoping this won't take long
<dsas_> I'm one of many that enjoy the friday quiz too :)
<elmo> ok, let's start on amaranth while sabdfl's afk and mako's catching up
<elmo> (assuming mako's willing to continue :)
<PriceChild> I'll cheerlead on Amaranth
<elmo> ok, I'll continue the skipping out of order thing, sorry for anyone this affects
<popey> :(
<mneptok> i can endorse Amaranth. i have seen him active not only with Ubuntu itself, but upstream at GNOME as well.
<elmo> Amaranth: go
<Amaranth> Alright. Well, my name is Travis Watkins, I've been here before and been approved, just missed some little details. Hoping this won't take long. :) http://wiki.ubuntu.com/TravisWatkins
<elmo> Amaranth: what's willowNG?
<elmo> might want to link to it on your wiki page
<Keybuk> Amaranth also has my support, he's been pretty active on #upstart
<dholbach> Amaranth: I tought you already were member
<Amaranth> Oh, and I bring the bling! ;) Doing some work on compiz and beryl but mostly focusing on configuration frontends.
<Amaranth> dholbach: haha
<cbx33> Amaranth, is a star, has always been a great help to me and the whole of edubuntu ;)
<dholbach> he's been active with smeg (now alacarte) too and it's been easy to work with him on bugs and all
<Amaranth> elmo: I wish ogra was here to explain, I'm bad at this.
<mneptok> oh, Amaranth can also take a punch. face or groin. very handy.
<GazzaK> can I be a fanboy for Amaranth too, as he has really helped me out, and others on irc, with beryl and other things
<Amaranth> It's a web proxy that uses bayesian filtering to block unwanted content.
<elmo> Amaranth: ah, I see, interesting
<elmo> ok, +1 from me on amaranth on the basis of all the development work and fanboys (et al.)
<cbx33> heheh
<Amaranth> if it helps, "i bring bling" ;)
<somerville32> +1 for Amaranth :] 
<elmo> Amaranth: doesn't do anything for me, but I'm sure it'll help with sabdfl
* jonh_wendell waits his time
<cbx33> Bling Bling Amaranth
<elmo> ok, pirast around?
<ogra> Amaranth, ?
* EmxBA EmxBA waits his time too...
<MacSlow> Amaranth, that always helps :)
<seb128> Amaranth: hint, you want to work on compiz ;)
<elmo> ok, MagicFab you're up
<Amaranth> seb128: I work on both. :)
<MacSlow> Amaranth, you need to work on compiz! ;)
<seb128> Amaranth: compiz is better ;)
<MagicFab> elmo ok
<ogra> Amaranth has my full support if he commits to make willowng work again in feisty ;)
<MagicFab> I work on advocacy, translations, local support & translations. Sometimes I pitch in to answer the most-recent unanswered forum posts, sometimes I'll go spend hours on putting Xubuntu on those old macs. These days I am focused on making the ubuntu-co (Colombia) and ubuntu-qc (Quebec, Canada) teams official.
<MagicFab> Oh, and I tried bling on a PIII-500 - it works! :D
<MagicFab> URL: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/FabianRodriguez
<elmo> (I'm just blithely carrying on - we'll get a vote from sabdfl at least on people we've done, before we end the meeting)
<Amaranth> ogra: hehe, i'll look sometime this week
<ogra> MacSlow, seb128 he should first finish his older projects ;)
<elmo> MagicFab: full disclosure, pls
<MacSlow> ogra, like?
<mneptok> i'll endorse MagicFab heartily. i know he has been active in free software in Quebec for years, and has been advocating Ubuntu almost from the inception.
<EtienneG> for what it is worth, i am all behind MagicFab
<MacSlow> ogra, just started reading his page more thoroughly
<sfllaw> I met MagicFab two years ago where he was supporting Ubuntu!
<La_PaRCa> I am a MagicFab fanboy. He has been doing great work getting the ubuntu-co team up and running.
<EtienneG> basically, he *is* ubuntu-qc (we need to fix that)
<MagicFab> elmo, I started working with Canonical's support office in Mtl 2 weeks ago. My membership was on the CC Agenda for a while
<elmo> MagicFab: thx
<cr3> I can also vouch for MagicFab's presence in the local communities in Quebec
<GazzaK> elmo, I'm really sorry to bug you, but can we (please) do popey and LoudMouthMan soonish, as I'm at work and will be locked in soon, and this place is bad enough without being locked in here.  I'm sorry to be whinging.
<EtienneG> and I take the blame for refering him :)
<ogra> MacSlow, the conmtent filter he wrote for edubuntu ... i'd like to have it on the CD for feisty
<elmo> GazzaK: sorry, didn't see that - we'll do them next if we can
<MacSlow> ogra, comment-filter or content-filter?
<ogra> but anyway, a loud cheer from my side for Amaranth ....
<sfllaw> MagicFab is an excellent all around guy.
<EtienneG> ^^
<ogra> MacSlow, content ... :)
<mneptok> sfllaw*3
<EtienneG> very pro, very level-head, the kind of advocate we want
<MagicFab> cr3, sfllaw, mneptok, etienne are colleagues, but they have witnessed I am very respectful at Ubuntu parties :)
<La_PaRCa> its the ubuntu-ca mafia
<sfllaw> Where's jbailey?
<cr3> for example, I know that MagicFab was present to all the free-software related events in Montreal: copyright 2005, sqil, linux-expo, many free software conferences and many many installfests
<jbailey> sfllaw: I'm here.
<mneptok> MagicFab: until the horse tranqulizers kick in
<ogra> MacSlow, apt-cache show willowng
<cr3> err, I mean all free-software related events I know of
<jbailey> sfllaw: But I don't have enough to contribute for his community interaction.
<sfllaw> He organized jbailey's talk at FACIL.
<jbailey> MagicFab: Oh, you organised that?  Thanks. =)
<MagicFab> sfllaw, I produced the video - don't know what's worse :)
<elmo> sfllaw: is that a polite way of saying "ghost wrote"? ;-)
<sfllaw> jbailey: Dude!
<sabdfl> sorry - office matters
<EtienneG> and e was advocating Ubuntu at all these place
<sabdfl> need to scann scrollback quickly
<jbailey> sfllaw: Eh, I was told to show up at a particular place and give a talk on Ubuntu, so I did. =)
<MagicFab> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/FabianRodriguez and scrolling to "Contributions" is a good summary
<mneptok> jbailey: show up in my kitchen and give a tolk on Ubuntu as you bake me a pie.
<jbailey> Not having to know who arranged it only seems like a positive reflection on the organisation of it. =)
<sabdfl> +1 on theCore - python fans unite!
<elmo> MagicFab: did you apply previously or am I misremembering?
<theCore> sabdfl: thanks! :)
<MagicFab> elmo, twice, actually - wasn't considered sustained. np with that
<cbx33> sabdfl, with ya there dude ;)
<sabdfl> +1 to Amaranth, long track record of contributions
<GazzaK> \o/ yay to theCore & Amaranth \o/
<elmo> ok, +1 from me for MagicFab
* sfllaw hugs theCore.
<Amaranth> yay
* sfllaw hugs Amaranth.
<sabdfl> MagicFab: +1 too - welcome!
<MacSlow> congrats Amaranth
* sfllaw hugs MagicFab.
<theCore> thanks everyone for supporting me
<EtienneG> cool theCore, looking forward to meet you sometime
<somerville32> Woot! :] 
<La_PaRCa> congrats guys
<PriceChild> well done Amaranth, theCore, MagicFab
<MagicFab> Great :) tx to all
* theCore hugs everyone
* MagicFab knew sfllaw would hug!!!
<EtienneG> MagicFab, well done, well deserved
* jbailey ^5's to MagicFab
<sabdfl> who's up next?
* MagicFab hugs back
<EtienneG> high five !
<popey> o/ please
<popey> in office alone
<popey> getting scared
<sabdfl> office xmas party shortly, so want to get to as many as possible, folks please type up your intro's in advance
<cbx33> awww
<mneptok> lol
<elmo> popey: go
<sabdfl> popey: go for it
<GazzaK> popey and LoudMouthMan ? (my cat is gonna kill me)
<mneptok> classic
<popey> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/AlanPope https://launchpad.net/people/alanpope that's me
<popey> i do a lot of support, i created some screencasts - http://quickones.org/ , I help LUGs..
<EtienneG> (sorry guys, have to go, duty call and jbailey will spank me if I am late)
<sabdfl> popey: how's #ubuntu doing from a support perspective?
<theCore> EtienneG: I applied for ubuntu-qc. I am certainly going to help you
<jonh_wendell> folks, where is the order?
<popey> I do web based support on the tickets
<theCore> ah...
<popey> generally don't venture into #ubuntu at the moment
* Seeker` can vouch for popey, "I've not been here long, but he is very active in #ubuntu-uk, he made me feel welcome and is good at answering support requests on the channel
<popey> find it easier to forumlate answers in support tickets
<cr3> theCore: I'll relay your message to him when he comes in :)
* somerville32 thinks we need to do john_wendell next.
<theCore> cr3: thanks
<popey> clocked up 10 million karma :)
<sabdfl> popey: what do you think of the web based tracker, have you spoken at all with flacoste who is leading the work onthat?
<cbx33> popey is one of the most dedicated linux helpers around
<LoudMouthMan> Im Popey fan club also and feel that UKTeam has consitantly benefited from his input.
<cbx33> he's untiring in his efforts
<popey> I like it, it's easy to use, I can help from anywhere :)
* Seeker` agrees with LoudMouthMan
<sabdfl> +1 from me on the basis of a huge contribution in ubuntu support
<elmo> +1 too
<mako> +1 from me as well
<GazzaK>  art.
<GazzaK> <GazzaK> I'd love to say a bit about Alan Pope, ( popey ) - He is very very helpful to all ubuntu users, he is very active on irc and has made some great demos on how to do things in ubuntu which are help on his own server ( quickones.org ) he is also very acti
* dsas joins the popey fan club too, he's one of the big lp support people.
<popey> \o/ thanks guys
<sabdfl> 241 results!
<cbx33> dude you rock
<popey> cheque in post
<sabdfl> welcome aboard!
<GazzaK> oops
<elmo> LoudMouthMan: I believe you needed to go next?
<GazzaK> he is also very active in launchpad, helping so many people.  In fact I support what he is doing so much I made this little (work safe) image - http://img97.imageshack.us/img97/8489/popeysmembergg2.jpg
<LoudMouthMan> Nik Butler is a 30 something Open Source Evangelist Living and Working in the South Of England and promoting OpenSource since the turn of the century. He has been promoting Ubuntu through BNI, FSB and his own Clients and regularly seeks new opportunities to increase awareness of Ubuntu as a Linux Desktop for Human Beings.His future plans include increasing awareness of Ubuntu to the many local SME IT Support companies in the
<LoudMouthMan>  South of  England. https://wiki.ubuntu.com/NikButler
* binary2k2 waves his "Popey for Ubuntu Membership" flag
<cr3> dsas: cool! lp is a difficult one to support
<popey> LoudMouthMan: ++++
<mako> GazzaK: i don't think that image helps your case
<mako> GazzaK: ;)
* Seeker` starts a LoudMouthMan fanclub too, "He is also very helpful and welcoming, and has done a lot for the UK team"
<GazzaK> mako, i'll never make an artist
<sabdfl> mehdi?
* binary2k2 waves his "LoudMouthMan for Ubuntu Membership" flag too
<theCore> +1 GazzaK for being a incredible member for the Support Team
<GazzaK> and popey will never make a model
<dsas> +1 for LoudMouthMan he's basically the  ubuntu-uk lead
<GazzaK> Nik Butler ( LoudMouthMan ) is a very helpful person, I have been helped on many occasions by him, and he is always in the #ubuntu-uk channel.  both him and popey were at the linuxworld2006 expo and made everyone feel very welcomed.  yet again, as my show of being a total fanboy I made this - http://img514.imageshack.us/img514/9863/nikmemberwq3.jpg - (work safe image)
<popey> +1 for LoudMouthMan for organising the expo stand
<NeilSimmons> LMM get a +1 from me, coz I can't give him a +10.
<sabdfl> Nik, awesome personal wiki page
<LoudMouthMan> thanks . sabdfl.
<NeilSimmons> He's been my personal introduction to FOSS and especially Linux since 1999 and as helped countless small business users get the benefits of Linux as well.
<sabdfl> LoudMouthMan: do you do much online, or mostly in-person advocacy?
<sabdfl> and what's the BCF?
<LoudMouthMan> sabfl its moslty been in person advocacy my online persona has kicked off since Jono kicked me into touch. but support tickets wise not so much as popey
<LoudMouthMan> British Computer Fairs,
<mako> LoudMouthMan: how long have you been involved in ubuntu?
<LoudMouthMan> oh and Business Network International .
<GazzaK> and he also sorted out Polo Shirts for the linuxworld expo :-)
<LoudMouthMan> mako when did it first get on the magazine covers in the uK ? probably over a year ogo .
<mako> LoudMouthMan: great :)
<LoudMouthMan> theres a Southafrican travel compny called Ehtosmarketing who make most use of it!
<mako> anyone else involved in the UK team who wants to give a testimonial
* Seeker` would like to reiterate his point that he is very valuable to the UK team
<elmo> mako: I think GazzaK and popey did?  or do you want some more?
<sabdfl> ok, +1 from me for LoudMouthMan on the back of strong advocacy over time
<elmo> +1 from me too
<sabdfl> LWE was awesome this year, thanks LoudMouthMan
<GazzaK> \o/ yay for popey \o/ yay for LoudMouthMan
<somerville32> :D
<LoudMouthMan> sabdfl well it was the team but thanks.
<somerville32> Can I go next? :] 
<elmo> mruiz would like to go next, if possible
<mruiz> o/ please
<EmxBA> can someone consider my application? i don't have whole day :(
<GazzaK> thanks sabdfl you made my fanboyish behaviour all worthwhile :-)
<sabdfl> LoudMouthMan: what's your LP nick?
<mruiz> elmo, now?
<sabdfl> can't see you in the applicants list of ubuntumembers
<LoudMouthMan> it should be NIkButler on Launchpad and its loudmouthmanonline
<LoudMouthMan> sabdlf I wasnt sure if you join that before or after approval ?
<elmo> LoudMouthMan: it seems to be 'reducedhackers' ?
<elmo> LoudMouthMan: before, please do it now
<LoudMouthMan> will do
<elmo> mruiz: go
<elmo> EmxBA: sorry, we're going as fast as we can
<sabdfl> mruiz: go go go!
<EmxBA> elmo: ok, I'm waiting in line :)
<elmo> EmxBA: you'll be next
<mruiz> Hello. My name is Miguel Ruiz, Chilean Ubuntu LoCo member. I'm 23 years old. Currently I'm studying computer science. I've been using Linux since approximately May 2002. I discovered Ubuntu in January 2005 with Warty Warthog, and it became my favourite distro.
<mako> yeah, +1 for me too
<mako> for LoudMouthMan
<mako> elmo: i was looking for something from someobdy else, if it was other there
<sabdfl> mruiz: how can we improve the consistency of LoCo team websites?
<LoudMouthMan> elmo changed to nikbutler is that okay ?
<sabdfl> LoudMouthMan: np
<elmo> LoudMouthMan: whatever you like is fine
<mruiz> My personal wiki: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MiguelRuiz  and my LP account:  https://launchpad.net/people/mruiz
<LoudMouthMan> thanks guys, cheers everyone .
<MagicFab> mruiz, is also proposing a spanish planet - we're talking about coordinating all the spanish/latinam. locos
<sabdfl> LoudMouthMan: you need to go to launchpad.net/people/ubuntumembers and apply there
<mruiz> sabdfl: you can visit http://www.ubuntu-cl.org
<sabdfl> mruiz: i like that site
<sabdfl> i was asking how you think we can make it easier to get all the loco teams tohave really good sites, like this
<sabdfl> can we provide more standard services?
<mruiz> sabdfl: yes, I think this is a good idea
<LoudMouthMan> sabdlf: also now done , thanks
<sabdfl> mruiz: i'm really pleased to see contributions across quite a wide variety of places - bugs, loco, translations etc
<sabdfl> thats very cool
<Yann2> (providing templates would help, imho)
<sabdfl> you started using ubuntu in Jan 05, when did you become active in the community?
<mruiz> yes, I share our templates with others LoCo teams
<EmxBA> also some forum (SMF, vbulletin or punbb) or joomla and other CMS templates would be helpful...?
<sabdfl> mruiz: when did you become an active contributor, as opposed to a user?
<mruiz> sabdfl: I started my work with Ubuntu community during last year, when we started in Chile our LoCo
<sabdfl> ok, +1 from me on the back of LoCo team leadership and website contributions
<mruiz> sabdfl, remember newz2000 vote and opinion
<somerville32> :] 
<elmo> +1 from me too
<mako> +1 from me as well, for the sae reasons as mark
<somerville32> Sweet!
<sabdfl> super - welcome aboard, mruiz, and thank you for your contributions so far!
<somerville32> Welcome mruiz! :)
<elmo> EmxBA: you're up
<mruiz> thanks!
<EmxBA> ok
<EmxBA> my launchpad account is on https://launchpad.net/people/emxba translations on https://translations.launchpad.net/people/emxba/+translations Wiki page has some information about me - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/EmirBeganovic. I've made some redesigned Edubuntu logos - look at http://ubuntu.juliux.de/stuff/emx/edubuntu/ I've had Fujitsu Siemens Amilo L6825 notebook and tested it - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LaptopTestingTeam/FujitsuAmiloL6825 . I've founde
<EmxBA> d Bosnian Team (https://launchpad.net/people/ubuntu-ba) - see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BosnianTeam - there's mailing list (https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-ba) and IRC channel (#ubuntu-ba on FreeNode) already, with descriptive wiki page too. Also reviewed and promoted Edubuntu and Ubuntu in 3 articles in local IT magazine (http://www.info.ba , http://www.info.ba/tekst.aspx?id=6361) and inside the regional (Bosnian and Herzegovinian)
<EmxBA>  LUG
<sabdfl> mruiz: what's your launchpad id, and have you applied for ubuntumembers?
<EmxBA> (enough for now) :)
<sabdfl> emir - how long have you been an active contributor?
<EmxBA> since june this year
<sabdfl> and in which areas would you say you make the biggest contribution?
<mruiz> sabdfl: my LP id is mruiz
<EmxBA> and used ubuntu since last year
<sabdfl> mruiz: i don't see you in the list of people applying for ubuntumembership
<mruiz> sabdfl: ok, I will do it
<EmxBA> sabdfl: translations, and loco team (that will be the primary thing in the future, yay)
<sabdfl> launchpad.net/people/ubuntumembers/+join
<sabdfl> ok, i see lots of translations, over several months
<sabdfl> what's your top wishlist feature for rosetta?
<mako> EmxBA: how many people are involved in the bosnian loco?
<mruiz> sabdfl: done
<mako> EmxBA: how long has the team been active?
<EmxBA> just me for now, because it's started few weeks ago, mako
<EmxBA> mako: the wiki page appeared on 30th october 2006
<mako> EmxBA: nobody else has expressed interest?
<EmxBA> wishlist....erm, dunno. rosetta is fine for me, sabdfl
<mako> yet
<sabdfl> EmxBA: +1 from me, on the basis of lots of translation contributions
<mako> right, the translations work is very good
<EmxBA> mako: did, on the Bosnian LUG forum (forum.linux.org.ba), but there are no members yet. the things that were the main was IRC (and IRC meeting were organized too), and maling list. the resources are there and there are members on the forum and i know lots of them (use ubuntu for a lot)
<mako> i don't know how i feel about a loco team with only on member.. still a great way to do promotion but not much of a team ;)
<EmxBA> i told you, it has opened recently...
<mako> EmxBA: yes yes, i know :)
<sabdfl> EmxBA: so you are saying there are bosnian contributors on irc, mailing list, just not signed up in LP team?
<EmxBA> and i'm also translating ubuntu guide to bosnian - http://start.linux.org.ba/Ubuntu_priru%C4%8Dnik
<EmxBA> sabdfl: yes, for now. but look e.g at http://launchpad.net/people/vljubovic, he has more than 2 million karma points
<sabdfl> ok, i'm happy
<mako> anyway, i'm happy with membership based on translations and advocacy work
<EmxBA> or this guy https://launchpad.net/people/jklipic which lives in germany, or the bosnian https://launchpad.net/people/kenanh which helps a lot in the LUG too
* mako nods
<somerville32> Can I go next? :] 
<mako> EmxBA: keep up the good work
<mako> +1 for me
<sabdfl> and ask vlubovic to apply for membership too, if he wants :-)
* somerville32 woots for EmxBA! :)
* mako nods to sabdfl 
<elmo> +1 from me too
<sabdfl> superb, welcome aboard, EmxBA
<EmxBA> just, I'm afraid that your opinions will change because of my years, assuming I'm the youngest active Ubuntu contributor
<sabdfl> youth is no obstacle - contribution, and approach (CoC) count
<sabdfl> hmm... should ask age on LP, so we would know who the oldest contributor is, too!
<somerville32> :D
<EmxBA> :)
<mako> EmxBA: you're probably not the youngest
<somerville32> Toby Smithe is 13 or 14
<EmxBA> active contributor, mako?
<mako> EmxBA: yes
<elmo> somerville32: I think you're next
<maxamillion> the founder of fluxbuntu is 19 and that impressed me :)
<mako> i'm not sure, but we've approved membership applications from people who are 13 and 14 before
<somerville32> elmo: Woot! Tell me when to go :)
* jonh_wendell still waits
<elmo> somerville32: now..
<sabdfl> EmxBA: you hear that? you're *old* :-)
<elmo> somerville32: oh, wait, sorry
<somerville32> Hi, My name is Cody A.W. Somerville (aka somerville32) and I'm here today to apply for membership to the Ubuntu Community. I believe I have made an active and sustained contribution to *Ubuntu over the last few months through Translation and Localisation to English (Ca), support to users on #xubuntu, regular bug triage and support on Launchpad, local advocacy, development and administration of the Xubuntu.org websit
<somerville32> e, as an active contributor to the Xubuntu Welcome Centre project and specification, as a regular contributor to xubuntu-devel mailing list, as an xubuntu developmer, my presentation at Ubuntu Open Week, as an editor of the Ubuntu Weekly Newsletter, as the Xubuntu Wiki maintainer, as an IRC op and contact for the Xubuntu namespace, packaging, community development, and much more with roughly 40hrs a week devoted to
<somerville32> *Ubuntu. Looking to the future, I'd like to continue to contribute in the aforementioned areas and will work on improving the desktop experience, further development of the Xubuntu and Ubuntu community, documentation, contributing upstream, plus numerous other endeavors. One day I hope to become a Canonical employee so that I can work on Xubuntu full time! :] 
<elmo> oh, meh, never mind
<somerville32> My Wiki page can be found at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/CodySomerville
<somerville32> P.S. Big thanks to Jenda, Burgundavia, Seveas, Gloubiboulga, Vincent, Gnomefreak, Crimsun, TheSheep, Maxamillion, Jani, LjL, Tonyyarruso, dholbach (plus thanks for all the hugs), members of the Xubuntu and Ubuntu Community, and the numerous other individuals that I've had the pleasure of working with!! *hugs*
<EmxBA> OK, thank you!!! I like Ubuntu more than I used to :)))
<sabdfl> jonh_wendell: you might want to type up your intro ahead of time
<elmo> jonh_wendell: sorry dude, missed you - you can go next
<jenda> somerville32: is that a _threeliner_???
<jenda> 
<maxamillion> <3 somerville32 !!!!
<sabdfl> somerville32: really nice wiki page
<sabdfl> those have become very, very good lately
<somerville32> Thanks :] 
<EmxBA> thanks sabdfl, it was nice chatting with the person whose article I've written on Bosnian Wikipedia :))) and others from CC ;)
<mako> i'm going to have to leave, at least for another 15 or so minutes, after somerville32
<jenda> Cody somerville32 has been a great help with the Ubuntu Weekly News recently.
<keeb> :P
* imbrandon is here to cheer a bit for somerville32 also , he has been trying to learn ( and doing a good job of it ) packaging too
<mako> i need to meet with someone who is leaving in 40 minutes
<sabdfl> somerville32: how's the xubuntu community shaping up?
<jenda> (and some nice work with teh open week too)
<somerville32> sabdfl: I think Feisty is going to be a big milestone for us. Community activity has seen a dramatic increase since the release of Dapper.
<sabdfl> what's driving the community activity?
<maxamillion> Cody Somerille is driving community activity
<tonyyarusso> I'll wave a little somerville32 flag for work on UWN past and upcoming - he signed up for quite a few "beats" at our last mtg :)
<jenda> PLUS he's from Fredericton, which was my home for a year, so I definitely think he deserves membership :)
<mako> tonyyarusso: great
<maxamillion> sabdfl: cody is probably the single most active part of xubuntu and does a great deal of organization for the rest of us to have direction in our contributions
<theCore> sabdfl: probably, digg.com :)
<sabdfl> translation is all recent for somerville32
<mako> somerville32: great wikipage
<somerville32> Thanks :)
<sabdfl> cody, are you actively packaging much?
<somerville32> sabdfl: Yes.
<sabdfl> who's sponsoring your uploads?
<somerville32> Crimsun has agreed to be my mentor and sponsor.
<imbrandon> sabdfl: yes he is a regular in the #ubuntu-motu channel soaking up as much as possible and even helping other motu hopefulls where he can
<elmo> how many xubuntu folks are core-dev atm?
<sabdfl> somerville32: when would you say you became an active contributor, rather than user?
<somerville32> elmo: A handful, I would guess.
<somerville32> sabdfl: Ever since I started using Ubuntu, I've helped out and what not in IRC. However, I would say that I started to take an active role as a contributor 3-4 months ago.
<EmxBA> can someone give us, new members, a FAQ list or wiki page about things that should be done after the approval process? irc cloak and mail on ubuntu.com comes when?
<sabdfl> ok, +1 from me on the basis of a wide variety of contributions over several months
<MacSlow> imbrandon, greetings btw
<mako> somerville32: yeah, there is a wide range of contributions and good documentation
<elmo> +1, same
<EmxBA> and membership on ubuntumembers is 2 years?
<imbrandon> moins MacSlow
<mako> +! for me
<mako> +1 even
<sabdfl> ok, welcome aboard somerville32
<somerville32> Thanks. :)
<mako> anyway, i need to go offline for a second
<sabdfl> will update LP now
<maxamillion> w00t for somerville32 !!!!!
<mako> i'll be back ASAP
<elmo> jonh_wendell: you're up, go
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:Ubugtu] : Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 13 Dec 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 14 Dec 16:00 UTC: Ubuntu Development Team | 19 Dec 20:00 UTC: Technical Board | 20 Dec 20:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 21 Dec 21:00 UTC: Ubuntu Development Team | 27 Dec 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu
<jonh_wendell> Hello. My name is Jonh Wendell. I'm a 27 years old programmer by profession. I started using Linux in 1997 at School. I like to contribute with FOSS. It's very exciting. Mainly coding. I really like to code! Triaging bugs is a very cool activity too.
<jonh_wendell> My wikipage: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/JonhWendell
<jonh_wendell> My LP id: https://launchpad.net/people/wendell
<sabdfl> jonh_wendell: you look really young for your age!
<jonh_wendell> haha
<sabdfl> ah, your son :-)
<sabdfl> where would you say you make the biggest contribution to the project?
<seb128> jonh_wendell is doing a rocking work on desktop bugs, on launchpad and also working with upstream
<jonh_wendell> sabdfl, translation and bug triage, i guess
<sabdfl> i see lots of bug work, which is really great
<sabdfl> where in brazil do you live?
<jonh_wendell> sabdfl, Macei - AL
<jonh_wendell> sabdfl, Water paradise, a lot of wonderful beaches
<sabdfl> do you have any specific suggestions about how we can help the brazilian community?
<apokryphos> EmxBA: for a cloak ping Seveas, when he's around
<sabdfl> EmxBA: email address comes automatically, with a short delay
<sabdfl> @ubuntu.com will forward to your LP preferred email
<EmxBA> ok, my mail is available on launchpad page
<EmxBA> ok
<jonh_wendell> sabdfl, almost everything is nice in ubuntu-br
<sabdfl> who would you describe as the strongest leaders of the ubuntu-br community?
<elmo> where are the usual ubuntu-br  cheering contingent?
<jonh_wendell> sabdfl, maybe we need a change
<jonh_wendell> sabdfl, because there are some personal issues involved...
<jonh_wendell> sabdfl, but i can't tell much because i'm relative novice on ubuntu-br
<sabdfl> jonh_wendell: ok. you can encourage folks to talk those issues through in a forum or irc or mailing list, and raise any disputes to CC if needed. how long would you say you have been an active contributor?
<jonh_wendell> sabdfl, in Ubuntu, since July, 2006, when i finished my university
<sabdfl> while waiting, can we see who's next? who's still in the queue? time running short here
<sabdfl> jonh_wendell: +1 from me, mainly on bug triage and advocacy
* tonyyarusso is still here
* jderose is in the queue still.
<jonh_wendell> elmo, translation, documentation really makes difference on our community
<sabdfl> i must say i think the brazilian community is amazing
<sabdfl> i know there are some tensions
<dholbach> I'm very happy with jonh_wendell too!
<sabdfl> i'd like to see those resolved - but they don't seem to be slowing things down
<jonh_wendell> thanks, seb128, dholbach
<sabdfl> elmo?
<elmo> +1
<sabdfl> welcome aboard - jonh_wendell!
<sabdfl> LP updated
<seb128> jonh_wendell: congrat!
<elmo> jderose: I think you're next
<jonh_wendell> thanks!!!!
<elmo> go
<jderose> Hello everyone! My name is Jason DeRose.  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/JasonGerardDerose https://launchpad.net/people/jderose
<jderose> After talking to seb128, I think I might have given more weight to my upstream work than I should have (as far as Ubuntu member candidacy is concerned), but I guess it doesn't hurt to try. ;) slomo might have had a chance to look at my KungFu package. A few people might remember me from DebConf in Brazil...
<jderose> I wrote KungFu, a Python-gtk-gstreamer based DVD ripper, which I have packaged for Ubuntu and hope to get included in Feisty. I'm working on implementing full DVD support under gstreamer0.10, which I might finish in time to be included in Feisty. My development work has generally been upstream, but I wish to use my upstream experience, particularly with GStreamer, to help improve Ubuntu where I can. And once I am less 
<elmo> jderose: how long have you been contributing to ubuntu?
<jderose> my first packaging was about 10 months ago, fuplayer...
<sabdfl> how many packages have you worked on?
<jderose> the past 3 moths or so i've been a lot more active.... i've packaged two apps i've written, fuplayer and kungfu.
<sabdfl> jderose: what do you think of pulse audio?
<sabdfl> are you active on mailing lists, irc, or forums?
<elmo> oh, and who's been sponsoring your packages?
<seb128> the few bugs I've read from jderose are good quality ones (testcases attached to the bugs and a gstreamer patch by example), he didn't work on a lot of bugs for now though
<jderose> i don't know a great deal about it yet, but is looks very interesting.  there is heating discussion on gst-devel lately  about audio server, mostly over how to address pro-audio issues.
<jderose> slomo is going to sponsor kungfu.
<sabdfl> jderose: i really like the quality of your contribution, but i think we normally look for a longer period of active participation
<sabdfl> would it be reasonable to say "keep going, come back in a month or two"?
<jderose> sabdfl: fair enough. i can apply again later if that is the consensus.
<jderose> sabdfl: sure.  ;)
<sabdfl> it seems you do very crisp work, which is nice
<sabdfl> sorry about the LONG delay in getting to you :-)
<sabdfl> sitting through a full CC meeting should earn major karma points
<sabdfl> who's next?
<jderose> sabdlf: no worries, it was a learning experience.  ;)  how long should i wait before trying to apply again?
<sabdfl> tonyyarusso: go go go!
<sabdfl> jderose: chat with seb128 and dholbach
<tonyyarusso> Hello, I am Tony Yarusso.  I've been most present on IRC, providing (and receiving) user support, as a member of the New User Network, Canadian Team, and most recently, IRC Team, among others.  With the NUN I gave a class on GPG, and helped moderate for Open Week.  I also dabble in documentation and marketing, and have begun looking into coordinating a translation, specifications, and helping out with the UWN.
<sabdfl> when they are happy, come again
<tonyyarusso> I also spend time on mailing lists and answering support queries in LP.  More detailed information can be found on the Wiki (https://wiki.ubuntu.com/TonyYarusso) and LP (https://launchpad.net/people/tonyyarusso).
<sabdfl> how's the NUN going?
<tonyyarusso> A little of each.
<apokryphos> tonyyarusso is a VERY helpful user on IRC and a recent addition to our Operator team
<keeb> tonyyarusso: is a very cool guy, always there to help.
<tonyyarusso> When we have stuff, it's awesome.  Although, sometimes we lack instructors for classes - the one I did was a pretty last minute fill in.
<lophylap> tonyyarusso is an awesome addition to the -ca loco team :)
<keeb> I have seen him work in #ubuntu and #ubuntu-offtopic, always very helpful, very knowledgeable, and very polite
<PFA> he is the only person who is actually patient enough to sort through my numerous and various computer woes
* lophylap formally vouches for tonyyarusso
<PFA> hi lophyte :)
<sabdfl> tonyyarusso: are you often acting as an OP on IRC?
<tonyyarusso> For NUN stuff, I think it would be great if we could expand our base of instructors.  A lot of the stuff we do is pretty basic, but people hear "teach" and aren't sure if they're qualified.
<tonyyarusso> sabdfl: Every day for the last what, week and a half now?
<apokryphos> he's been doing well :)
<sabdfl> tonyyarusso: how long have you been an active contributor?
<tonyyarusso> sabdfl: Well, I started giving answers that others had given me on IRC pretty much the same week I started.  It was probably four months or so in (after aug 05) that the amount I could give back was reaching a critical mass
<sabdfl> ok, +1 from me for a sustained and significant contribution, mostly in user support
<Burgwork> tonyyarusso has been an active contributor to the the UWN and the Canadian Team
<tonyyarusso> Beyond IRC, other things started falling into place around this time - Feb last year.
<nalioth> tonyyarusso is an asset to the Ubuntu community
<somerville32> +1 for tonyyarusso !
<PFA> tonyyarusso is the king of canada
<keeb> lol
<PFA> srsly, he is mega awesome and all kinds of things.
<elmo> +1 from me too
<apokryphos> congrats, tonyyarusso 8)
<keeb> grats, tonyyarusso :)
<PFA> yay!! ^^
<theCore> congrats, tonyyarusso
<PriceChild> well done
<jenda> congrats tony :)
<tonyyarusso> My long-term future project is looking at an Ojibwe translation, which I expect will be slow going, but super cool :)
<tonyyarusso> Thanks all!
<jbailey> Eh, cool.
<jbailey> (For those who don't know, Ojibwe is a fairly commonly spoken native language in Canada)
<sabdfl> ok
<sabdfl> wow
<sabdfl> i think that's all members waiting?
<sabdfl> two quick announcements from the CC, based on a call we had earlier
<sabdfl> we have all approved the idea of creating a new position of "CC Secretary"
<sabdfl> and we have invited Seveas to take that office as its founding title holder :-)
<sabdfl> Seveas makes a huge contribution to ubuntu
<sabdfl> especially to keeping the CC and other leading groups on track
<LoudMouthMan> here here
<sabdfl> and we think that's a job that deserves specific recognition
<sabdfl> so, thank you seveas, and congratulations on the new position
<sabdfl> also, we discussed expanding the CC
<ajmitch> congratulations Seveas, if you're around still :)
<sabdfl> i will make some nominations later this month, after discussing them with the folks concerned
<sabdfl> ubuntumembers will have a series of votes to confirm those nominations or veto them
<sabdfl> we will have two types of nominations
<sabdfl> some will be straight up-or-down confirmation/veto votes
<sabdfl> others will be more like a race, with m candidates where we will accept the top n into the CC
<EmxBA> is there launchpad channel where i can talk to admins?
<dsas_> EmxBA: #launchpad
<sabdfl> cjwatson is going to step down from the CC after an amazing two and a half years of leadership there
<kalon33> re all
<sabdfl> he will stand for the TB next (ubuntu-dev and ubuntu-core-dev vote to confirm nominations to the TB)
<sabdfl> that's all from me
<sabdfl> closing comments, mako, elmo?
<elmo> not from me
<sabdfl> i think mako's stepped afk
<PriceChild> Thanks CC :)
<sabdfl> ok, THANK YOU everyone!
<sabdfl> yowser, we got through a lot
<sabdfl> in like 9 hours :-)
<kalon33> finished all that keep me away from my computer, elmo I sended you a mail a few minutes ago because I have a problem
<somerville32> haha
<LoudMouthMan> cheers sabdfl . and congrats to all involved.
<somerville32> :D
<LoudMouthMan> wow I managed to be here and cook dinner for 3 at the same time !
<kalon33> thanks sabdfl
<kalon33> A question for someone who know that : Is ubuntu membering applies immediately ?
<sabdfl> kalon33: it should yes
<sabdfl> night all
<kalon33> goodnight all !
* mako is back
<mako> thanks everyone, sorry i couldn't be here for the entire thing
<LoudMouthMan> cheers mako , thanks for your questions .. i had to clean up chopped onions from me hands to start responding
<mako> LoudMouthMan: not a problem
<mruiz> thanks mako, sabdfl
<mruiz> goodnight
<EmxBA> sabye
<EmxBA> bye :)
<Lure> !irclogs
#ubuntu-meeting 2006-12-13
<nixternal> @schedule chicago
<Ubugtu> Schedule for America/Chicago: 13 Dec 06:00: Edubuntu | 14 Dec 10:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 19 Dec 14:00: Technical Board | 20 Dec 14:00: Edubuntu | 21 Dec 15:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 27 Dec 06:00: Edubuntu
<linuxgx> when is 6.11, or 6.2 coming out?
<Hawkwind> The next release is 7.04 which is April of 2007
<tonyyarusso> linuxgx: There is no such thing as either.  The naming scheme is <year>.<month.(maintenance)
<Hawkwind> But this is probably the wrong channel to be asking in as this channel is strictly for Ubuntu Meetings
<linuxgx> sorry for my ingnorence
<linuxgx> im sorry for asking but where might i find documentation of progrees?
<tonyyarusso> linuxgx: Come again?
<lifeless> postgresql ?
<linuxgx> is there a place where i can see changes, and bug fixs
<tonyyarusso> Postgresql must have a web site I'd assume
<highvoltage> @schedule
<Ubugtu> Schedule for Etc/UTC: 13 Dec 12:00: Edubuntu | 14 Dec 16:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 19 Dec 20:00: Technical Board | 20 Dec 20:00: Edubuntu | 21 Dec 21:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 27 Dec 12:00: Edubuntu
<freeflying> @schedule shanghai
<Ubugtu> Schedule for Asia/Shanghai: 13 Dec 20:00: Edubuntu | 15 Dec 00:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 20 Dec 04:00: Technical Board | 21 Dec 04:00: Edubuntu | 22 Dec 05:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 27 Dec 20:00: Edubuntu
<zarul> @schedule Kuala_Lumpur
<Ubugtu> Schedule for Asia/Kuala_Lumpur: 13 Dec 20:00: Edubuntu | 15 Dec 00:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 20 Dec 04:00: Technical Board | 21 Dec 04:00: Edubuntu | 22 Dec 05:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 27 Dec 20:00: Edubuntu
<juliux> @schedule
<Ubugtu> Schedule for Etc/UTC: 13 Dec 12:00: Edubuntu | 14 Dec 16:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 19 Dec 20:00: Technical Board | 20 Dec 20:00: Edubuntu | 21 Dec 21:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 27 Dec 12:00: Edubuntu
<juliux> @schedule berlin
<Ubugtu> Schedule for Europe/Berlin: 13 Dec 13:00: Edubuntu | 14 Dec 17:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 19 Dec 21:00: Technical Board | 20 Dec 21:00: Edubuntu | 21 Dec 22:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 27 Dec 13:00: Edubuntu
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:Ubugtu] : Current meeting: Edubuntu | Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 14 Dec 16:00 UTC: Ubuntu Development Team | 19 Dec 20:00 UTC: Technical Board | 20 Dec 20:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 21 Dec 21:00 UTC: Ubuntu Development Team | 27 Dec 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu
<RichEd> hi guys ... start in a few seconds
<juliux> hi all
* ogra waves
* Kamping_Kaiser lurks
<juliux> ogra, did you read my e-mail at the ubuntu germany member list?
<ogra> the CD/DVD shipment one ?
<juliux> ogra, no faschin2007 ;)
<juliux> fasching20007
<cbx33> ogra: DUDE !!!
<ogra> i saw it but didnt read it yet
<willvdl> me enters
<ogra> cbx33, !
* willvdl enters
<juliux> ogra, do it its about edubuntu;)
<cbx33> sorry, just havn't seen you for ages...well not properly
<RichEd> hi ... ready steady go ...
<RichEd> Greetings to every one ...
<RichEd> And let's kick off with TECHNICAL ... ogra ?
<juliux> hi RichEd
* willvdl waves
<ogra> juliux, read it ... nice idea :)
<ogra> tech:
<ogra> herd1 is out ....
<ogra> ltsp is merged with debians tree ....
<ogra> i'm just writing the main inclusion report for edsadmin, our new user and group management tool in edubuntu
<cbx33> cool cool cool
<willvdl> how does it relate to SCP?
<ogra> i'm a bit behind on other stuff, had to merge gnome power manager yesterday and gnome screensaver is still on my list
<ogra> willvdl, not at all
<willvdl> okie
<ogra> even though SCP could have an ldap mode in feisty+1 ;)
<cbx33> let's get feisty out the way first ;)
<cbx33> heheh
<ogra> the --workstation option is contained in the current ltsp package ....
<ogra> but not 100% funct5ional until the user management is fixed
<cbx33> we need SCP over fat clients too ;)
<ogra> ugh
<ogra> no :)
<ogra> the name change will make that clearer i hope :)
<cbx33> heheh
<ogra> http://blogs.gnome.org/view/rodrigo/2006/01/24/0
<ogra> i was wondering if we probably should check that out and ship it :)
<ogra> (sorry took a minute to look it up)
<ogra> i have no clue how far in development it is, but i think i'll take a look at it
<cbx33> hmmm
<cbx33> definitely
<ogra> thats it from tech i think ... any questions ?
<cbx33> can we shcedule meeting for SCP
<cbx33> :#
<ogra> sure
<ogra> do you have time after the meeting ?
<cbx33> hmm....
<willvdl> what's the name change again?
<cbx33> probably not
<ogra> thin-client-manager
<cbx33> maybe tonight....
<cbx33> will do tomorrow in the day
<willvdl> of course, how could I forget that conversation :)
<cbx33> i try to ping you when I'm free for it....
<ogra> oki
<cbx33> but you've been real busy lately
<ogra> really sorry for not making it last time ...
<cbx33> let's say....I'll try and ping you for rest of week
<cbx33> if we don;t get anywhere....we'll schedule
<ogra> yeah, ltsp had about 100 patches i had to review ...
<cbx33> yikes
<ogra> they are all in and it still builds a working client :)
<ogra> but is uninstallabvle currently because i changed from netkit-inetd to openbds-inetd
<cbx33> i see
<ogra> openbsd-inetd waits for main inclusion ...
<cbx33> ahh
<cbx33> dude once again you are a legend ;)
<ogra> but that should all be sorted until herd2 i hope
<ogra> anyway, next topic ?
<willvdl> Technical Docs
<willvdl> can we talk artwork first?
<ogra> right
<ogra> as you like
<cbx33> ok artwork
<willvdl> tech and community docs flow into each other
<cbx33> I blogged
<cbx33> no responce...
<ogra> there isnt anything tech doc specific anyway atm ...
<cbx33> will follow up with ml posts tonight
<cbx33> lisa and i finally have some free time to devote to it tonight
<willvdl> can we make edubuntu artwork team part of ubutnu art team?
<ogra> that sounds great
<ogra> are the kubuntu and xubuntu ones part of it ?
<willvdl> sub-team that is and merge the communities?
<willvdl> think so
<cbx33> willvdl: sounds good
<RichEd> willvdl: & cbx33 : can you guys come up with a list of technical documentation ? and how we define it in comparison to user or promotional info & documenation
<ogra> nope
<willvdl> doing so already
<ogra> none of the other teams are in ubuntu-art
<cbx33> sure
<RichEd> willvdl: I agree with sharing, but still think we need to maintain our own character
<cbx33> RichEd: we're working on it all
<willvdl> ogra, exactly
<cbx33> RichEd: I agree
<cbx33> we still use their ML
<ogra> willvdl, we should discuss that on the artwork mailing list first i think
<willvdl> we've covered this concept before. our community is small
<cbx33> so how much more integration do you think?
<RichEd> (thanks willvdl & cbx33 : with each document description we should also have an update procedure, and define the trigger that kicks off the update requirement = e.g. new rele4ase etc.)
<willvdl> literally make it a sub-team of ubuntu art with sub-products (if applicable)
<cbx33> RichEd: we need to see how this incorporates into handbook too
<willvdl> and call for contributions from ubuntu-art?
<RichEd> yep.
<cbx33> willvdl: that is planned for this evening
<willvdl> that way edubuntu-artwork still keeps it's flavour
<cbx33> as I said I blogged about it and got 1 reply...saying...edubutnu artwork is good
<juliux> cbx33, the sounds are great;)
<RichEd> And also, we do not want to inherit unnecessary overhead or control from the Ubuntu Art team ...
<cbx33> juliux: i was on about physical picuter artwork
<willvdl> we still keep our team but make it easier for ubuntu community to contribute
<cbx33> gonna hve to pop out for a meeting in a while......at work you see......can I ask if we can rotate the edubuntu meeting minutes....I just don;t get time to do them all.....maybe something someone new to edubuntu community may like tohelp out on to get a grasp on people and what things are happening
<RichEd> in the Ubuntu setup ... is there a sound team as well as an artwork team ... or is it all under some sort of "presentation" umbrella
<cbx33> RichEd: well last release the sound team was ... well me
<cbx33> with Frank as my line manager
<RichEd> yep ... that's why I was asking about Ubuntu ... not edubuntu :)
<willvdl> cbx33, I'll do minutes today
<willvdl> RichEd, not sure there is a sound team
<Gunirus> When i plug in my USB hdd, Kubuntu asks me what to do. I click "open i a new window" and the hdd will be mounted... But the owner is root
<cbx33> my head is going to explode....good luck willvdl they're all over the shot today ;)
<Gunirus> how can i change that?
<cbx33> Gunirus: not here
<cbx33> #ubuntu
<juliux> Gunirus, pls ask in #ubuntu
<RichEd> Gunirus: this is a meeting channel
<Gunirus> woops
<Gunirus> sorry
<RichEd> :)
<Gunirus> i thougt that i was in #ubuntu
<RichEd> ASk in #ubuntu or #kubuntu
<willvdl> OK agreed then on artwork?
<cbx33> willvdl: exactly what do you want to see?
<ogra> yes, but give the artteam an opportunity to object, send a mail to their ML first
<RichEd> So back to the art & sound ... should we have an artwork team and sound, or bring it together under "presentation"
<willvdl> to link the LP teams better
<willvdl> makes it easier for folk to understand
<cbx33> presentation I think...
<cbx33> sound is tiny
<cbx33> well was in edgy anyway
<ogra> i wouldnt care about sound now ... we dont even have art yet ...
<cbx33> heh
<cbx33> isnt art noncommunity in feisty anyway
<willvdl> I prefer artwork -> includes sound, pics, icons
<ogra> i'm convinced the ubuntu studio team will split out a sounds team at some point
<willvdl> probably
<willvdl> oooh
<RichEd> I'm thinking ahead to where we would be asking for contributors ... some volunteers may be into sound / some into art.
<cbx33> hehe
<RichEd> ubuntu studio ? what does that cover ogra ?
<cbx33> I'm off out to meeting
<willvdl> but let's not dilute a thin community
<cbx33> bb as soon as I can
<cbx33> sorry guys
<willvdl> no prob
<RichEd> cheers cbx33
<ogra> RichEd, a derivative focused on sound production
<ogra> ben just built a custom kernel for them we have in universe now
<willvdl> ubuntustudio.com I think
<RichEd> ohh .. I remember checking out that web page the other day
<ogra> http://ubuntustudio.org/ right
<ogra> that will draw artists together
<willvdl> Shall we put tp the artwork ML:
<ogra> (at least sound artists)
<willvdl>  - sound & art inclusion
<RichEd> I agree that we do not wabnt to have exgtra overhead, but one thing I would like to move to is a formal planning cycle for for each release ... as per part of our discussions re docs with Will.
<willvdl>  - closer alignment to ubuntu-art
<RichEd> Some set list of things we need to follow up on *in good time* for each release so that there is not a big crunch at deadline time
<ogra> i really dont see us doing any extra sound ... we never did ... so whats the point of that ?
<RichEd> pet has done sound for us that is not in Ubuntu ? no ?
<RichEd> *pete
<ogra> we always used the ubuntu sounds and by experience sound designers will come if they want anysway ... we looked for new sounds for four releases and didnt find anyboduy until cbx33 stepped up
<ogra> (in ubuntu that is)
<ogra> edubuntu never had any specific sounds
<willvdl> true, but the question is where do they go if they do come to us?
<ogra> they go to the ubuntu-art team anyway
<willvdl> I'd suggest leaving it there for now
<ogra> right
<RichEd> okie
<ogra> thats what i mean ...
<willvdl> agreed
<ogra> why do we discuss sound here ? :)
<RichEd> part of art
<ogra> well
<willvdl> ok, docs?
<ogra> nothing special on the tech side yet ....
<willvdl> will Topic Based Help affect you?
<willvdl> not sure it will make it to feisty
<ogra> depends
<ogra> most of my personally written docs reside in /usr/share/doc/<packagename> ;)
* pips1 walks in
<willvdl> hey there
<ogra> the yelp docs will surely affect tech as well
<RichEd> hey pips1 :)
<pips1> hello everybody, long time no see
<willvdl> ogra, I'm watching that as closely as I can
<willvdl> anyway, we've got svn access (cbx33)
<willvdl> ogra, is there a real difference between the About doc and the Release-Notes?
<willvdl> other than where they end up?
<ogra> not sure
<willvdl> they contain identical info
<willvdl> not to worry, will pose to ubuntu-doc
<ogra> usually the release notes also have a list of known bugs etc
<willvdl> ok then, community & doc & web?
<RichEd> From my outside perspective, About should be pretty consistent in its message, with some updates per version. Release Notes are usually about issues specific to the version release.
<RichEd> which fits with ogra's comment
<ogra> right
<willvdl> RichEd, makes sense but I think they are different because the release notes are for the web really, not for the package
<ogra> package ?
<RichEd> ?? release notes for the web ?? why is it called release then ?
<willvdl> ubuntu-doc.deb
<ogra> ah
<RichEd> not complaining, just trying to understand !
<willvdl> It's taken me a long time to demystify
<willvdl> and I'm writing up as much as I can :|
<willvdl> In the SVN repo there are a few directories
<willvdl> About | Release-Notes | Handbook (in our case) | Desktop Guide
<ogra> note that jerome created an about edubuntu there as well
<willvdl> and other stuff too but those mnentioned get packaged into a deb that goes into the distro
<RichEd> From my proprietary days (pardon me) the term release notes is a doc on the CD whcih lets you know about bugs, install issues, hardware requirements, upgrade issues and migration issues, and somtimes some feature comments.
<ogra> and where is the server guide ?
<willvdl> that too
<willvdl> RichEd, it is that, I'm just not sure where it lives on teh CD
<ogra> https://wiki.edubuntu.org/EdgyReleaseNotes
<willvdl> my mistake about it not being released
<willvdl> ogra, that's on the web
<RichEd> Okie :)
<ogra> thats our release notes
<willvdl> they should end up on help.ubuntu.com?
<ogra> i dont think so
<willvdl> true
<ogra> but then i think nothing should end up on h.u.c :)
<ogra> (i'm not a big fan of the split)
<willvdl> unfortunately it's there to stay :)
<willvdl> I'm getting a handle on how it works practically
<willvdl> basically, I want to propose something like https://wiki.edubuntu.org/EdubuntuDocumentation
<willvdl> which is a temp planning page
* RichEd agrees that the split over servers is confusing ... and makes searchign a lot more tricky
<RichEd> *searching
<willvdl> RichEd, eventually wiki,ubuntu.com will be pure team planning stuff
<ogra> worse is the automatic forwarder ...
<RichEd> ??? and where will the user documentation faqs etc. live ?? www.e.o
<willvdl> h.u.c
<ogra> well
<ogra> its a wiki
<ogra> people will dadd pages etc as they like
<willvdl> yip :)
<willvdl> h.u.c at least is closely watched by doc-team
<ogra> right, aned they pull over docs from the wiki
<ogra> but i still see the wiki as an entry point for new docs
<willvdl> which it is
<RichEd> I like that plan ... so we have space for "vounteer effort" and a process for "approval into formal info"
<willvdl> it's the collaborative space
<RichEd> It fits with our view of the community space and forums
<willvdl> but ogra's concern, I imagine, is how to maintain an edubuntu space in h.u.c
<ogra> right... what bothers me about it is that docs just vanish from the wiki
<willvdl> ogra, it is badly managed
<RichEd> We must make sure that there is a nice clear site guide prominent on www.edubuntu.org explaining the sub-domain sites clearly.
<RichEd> ogra: who deletes them ... I thought delete rights were restricted ?
<willvdl> RichEd, working on it :)
<willvdl> nope
<pips1> RichEd: agreed. but it looks like we aren't sure ourselves 100% how it works ;-)
<ogra> the tool that moves them over to h.u.c
<ogra> they vanish from the wiki
<ogra> but get moved to h.u.c
<RichEd> Is that a software tool or a "person tool" ?
<ogra> no idea
<willvdl> which would be fine if the links were ammended
<ogra> right
<RichEd> And does it leave any stub saying that the info can now be found ----> here ?
<willvdl> ogra, my concern is release version tagging
<willvdl> wiki docs go out of date
<ogra> RichEd, it automatically forwards you to h.u.c
<ogra> but links break inside of docs for example
<RichEd> okay ... me thinks on that a bit
<willvdl> docs in svn just get tagged or branched but not wiki docs
<willvdl> there is a spec to try and combat this but it is a bit dormant
<pips1> willvdl: moin moin offers categories for tagging, but not all wiki users know how to use them
<ogra> right
<ogra> and apart from that you can tag through the page name
<ogra> which is the easiest way of tagging
<willvdl> pips1 check on LP for the spec, it is very informative
<pips1> oki
<willvdl> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/HelpWikiQualityAssurance
<willvdl> ogra, tag through the page name?
<pips1> thanks, that helped :-)
<willvdl> you mean namespace?
<ogra> yeah
<willvdl> might not work though if you maintain docs for multiple versions
<willvdl> how do you build a hierarchy
<RichEd> willvdl / ogra : explain that please ? tagging through namespace
<willvdl> using the page name as the tag
<ogra> https://wiki.edubuntu.org/Edgy givews me a beutiful list of all edgy related docs
<ogra> *beautiful
<willvdl> category tagging is *the way*.
<ogra> https://wiki.edubuntu.org/EdubuntuXYZ does the same for edubuntu
<ogra> right, categories are the better but less obvious way
<willvdl> consider a page with info for both feisty and dapper
<pips1> built-in easy tagging is one of the big benefits of Drupal ... so FAQ items etc. on our community site can have release tags... But this still doesn't solve the issue for the h.u.c wiki...
<RichEd> And if someone creates a doc : https://wiki.edubuntu.org/Edgy ... then that list disappears as a result of the page being found ?
<ogra> (my mother wouldnt know about categoories, but could understand namespace tagging right away)
<willvdl> then when dapper goes out of date and the new release goes in, you don't have to change the name
<ogra> RichEd, yes
<RichEd> willvdl: perhaps let pips1 and I explore the tagging aspect on Drupal for the community space ... and we can revist
<ogra> willvdl, suchg pages will need updates for newer releases as well ... procedures change between releases ...
<ogra> https://wiki.edubuntu.org/RestrictedFormats is a good example ...
<ogra> no it isnt ... its not wiki anymore, i forgot
<pips1> also, as far as I understand, Drupal has some Docbook import/export capability, so we might actually be able to get documentation to/from the new communty site...
<ogra> originally it had a set of subpages for different releases
<willvdl> ogra. gotcha. but by merely changing the category each time, you make it possible to search
<ogra> right
<willvdl> whereas name tagging would require you to delete and recreate and relink pages
* pips1 needs to go to a meeting soon
* cbx33 is back from meeting
<willvdl> OK, my main concern is on some "old" pages in wiki.e.o
<pips1> nah, you want to use categories for tagging on the wiki.
<willvdl> especially old planning pages
<ogra> wipe them
<ogra> unless they have any historical value
<willvdl> will do. I'm checkingindividuall as I go. it takes time
<cbx33> don;t delete my dhcp and pxe pages ;)
<willvdl> I also want to move the edubuntu doc team into the ubunut-doc team
<willvdl> I won't delete any tech stuff. I'll tag them CategoryCleanup
<cbx33> w00t
<willvdl> again, I wish https://wiki.ubuntu.com/HelpWikiQualityAssurance would resolve
<ogra> cbx33, arent they anyway under https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuLTSP
<pips1> the way I see it, you want some ready-made categories ("tags") that every person adding content will use. However, wikis only have one "content type". A CMS like drupal can have several content types (news item, documentation item, etc) each with its own ready-made tags...
<willvdl> We are short of doc contributers so I want to leverage ubuntu-doc team as much as possible. LaserJock and nixternal are in agreement
<willvdl> I want closure with you folk, highvoltage etc.
<cbx33> willvdl: I'm fine with it so long as I get SVN access ;)
<ogra> sounds good
<cbx33> I'm not doing submitting patches all over again ;)
<willvdl> so the HandBook will follow pygi's original dream
<willvdl> to be the mother of edubuntu info
<willvdl> which we can draw from for marketing materials or any targeted handguides we might need
<willvdl> When Topic Based Help matures, all this will be MUCH easier and semi-automatic
<willvdl> but we have to lower the barrier to entry for contributions so any suggestions are welcome :)
<cbx33> you mean allow more people to add stuff?
<willvdl> let people know what needs to be added, how (patches to doc-team) and when etc
<willvdl> but the wiki also needs contributers
<willvdl> and proofers
<cbx33> indeed
<willvdl> and as our marketing materials take shape, we need to make it easier for the Marketing Team to get involved in our plans
<RichEd> willvdl: if we explain the process pipleline, and define what sort of help we need where, that may make it easier for people to volunteer ...
<willvdl> yip. I have some ideas for the doc-team page
<willvdl> because of h.u.c we have to do it through there
<pips1> since I need to go now, just a little info from my side regarding community website + official site, I'm busy at my day job right up until xmas break :-/ I'm looking to pick up the ball on Jan 15th. However, I'm around now and next week if anything urgent needs done.
<RichEd> keep me in the loop ... we'll be working the end-user community for their help as well
<willvdl> that and we need to enter that community, the guys are beggins us to join
<willvdl> can I get access rights to www.edubuntu.org?
<willvdl> so I can make minor changes?
<cbx33> willvdl: don;t see a reason why not
<cbx33> pips1: can you make that happen? I don;t think I have the access for that
<pips1> willvdl: sure. I create an account for you. but I'll have to be later today, as I have a meeting now.
<Maikel> when did the meeting start, 15 minutes ago?
<willvdl> no problem.
<pips1> willvdl: I'll get in touch soon
<RichEd> 75 Maikel
<willvdl> 1h15 :)
<Maikel> k
<pips1> bye all
<willvdl> pips1 cool
<RichEd> bye pips1
<cbx33> gonna have to go soon again....running my enrichment group for the kids
<cbx33> teaching them all about linux
<cbx33> ;)
<willvdl> does anyone have ideas on how to filter support requests to ubuntu channels when applicable?
<ogra> willvdl, can you be more specific ?
<willvdl> ogra, for #edubuntu stuff that should be in #ubuntu
<willvdl> similarly for mailing list
<cbx33> could we have a bot reply for it?
<cbx33> like !bot john
<ogra> well, usually we just point people to #ubuntu
<cbx33> sorry john, this is not the right support chanel....blah blah
<ogra> and i wouldnt like a mechanic approach here ...
<willvdl> pretty clever bot
<cbx33> not really
<cbx33> ok
<cbx33> np ogra
<willvdl> ogra, how do kubuntu do it?
<ogra> the same
<RichEd> how much time does that sort of thing waste or impact at the moment ... not to significant is it ?
<RichEd> *too
<willvdl> I'll check their webspace to see what they disclaim
<ogra> if people ask questions that are not kubuntu related, they get pointed to #ubuntu
<ogra> but i dont think its an issue atm
<willvdl> RichEd, not our time really but can be frustrating to folk looking for help in the wrong channel
<ogra> we should think about it if we have 500 users in #edubuntu ;)
<willvdl> ogra, do you ever forward edubuntu-xx@l.u.c to ubuntu ML?
<ogra> no
<willvdl> do you think we should?
<ogra> but i point people to ubuntu-users in case the question isnt appropriate
<willvdl> RichEd, we should do same for ubuntu-education
<ogra> i think we should keep the hiuman factor involved
<ogra> its a very important part of the ubuntu community to not automate such things
<willvdl> not suggesting automation
<RichEd> yep ... if people bring up product issues, then we send them to #edubuntu ... I am being careful with that
<ogra> (at least where its possible to survive without automation)
<cbx33> yes
<willvdl> but if a mail comes through that asks for X issue (e.g.) then, although I can't answer it, I can respond and send to the right ML?
<ogra> donmt crosspost ... but point the user to the right list
<willvdl> gotcha. I'll take that advice
<willvdl> it's subtle but I can see why
<ogra> yeah, crossposting is generally considered evil and you should have a real valid reason to do it ...
<willvdl> OK I'm done on docs:
<willvdl> we've got planning to do for marketing stuff
<cbx33> yeh
<cbx33> lots happening there
<willvdl> we've got an idea for managing and tracking
<willvdl> we _need_ to clean up our wiki
<willvdl> and my suggestion boils down to intelligent use of |Launchpad
* RichEd thanks willvdl & cbx33 for all the doc schlepp work they are doing ... it is important.
<cbx33> ;)
<willvdl> RichEd, once demysified it makes sense
<willvdl> in a wierd kinda way
<cbx33> will be good for BETT ;)
<willvdl> you going to BETT?
<cbx33> hehehe ;) WOOHOOO EDUBUNTU IS GOING TO BETT
<cbx33> ;)
<RichEd> willvdl: if we need to demystify it ... then it means it was too complex for the end user.
<willvdl> my GF will be there. you must say Hi
<willvdl> she's presenting something
<RichEd> Yep ... here's the conference news:
<RichEd> We've been invited to share a stand at BETT in January 2007
<RichEd> Pete Savage w00t will be our man on the ground
<ogra> yay
<cbx33> so any tips....help.....advice
<cbx33> please please
<RichEd> We will help him with collateral, and I am trying to get some Canonical people to show support and come down to chat & network ... I think discussions with the suppliers would be a big help.
<cbx33> and people to work on ESA once we get things sorted ;)
<willvdl> stand tall, wear a tie and smile alot
<cbx33> suit?
<cbx33> hehe
<cbx33> I am tall
<cbx33> 6'2"
<cbx33> or the other way round
<willvdl> RichEd, Jono?
<RichEd> Jono Bacon is trying to arrange his schedule (trip to Aus) to be there for a day at least.
<RichEd> give me a sec to dig out some detasils
<willvdl> right. we have a UK LoCo but I guess edubuntu folk are better
<RichEd> we've been invited by Open Forums Europe
<RichEd> (they have the stand 3m x 3m)
<RichEd> Also there at the conference will be:
<RichEd> Moodle SW60
<RichEd> Equiinet E85
<willvdl> LAMS?
<RichEd> European Electronique D85
<cbx33> yup I'll be speaking with them ;)
<RichEd> the Internet Cafe run by Blueloop using SUSE Linux Enterprise
<willvdl> excellent
<cbx33> wow much more open source this time round
<RichEd> That's who we know from the OSS world.
<RichEd> Pete, can you start a wiki page for the conference ?
<cbx33> RichEd: et all any advice on demoing
<cbx33> sure
<willvdl> I even have friends in MSoft who have commented on the one-sidedness of BETT...
<RichEd> And then people can add ideas ... we can announce the page next weeks meeting, ans discuss for a bit.
<cbx33> nice ;)
<cbx33> this is gonna be cool
<ogra> cbx33, juliux has some experience in demoing edubuntu
<cbx33> can I have an ubuntu suit :)
<cbx33> three colours....
<cbx33> bright orange trousers
<cbx33> red jacket
<cbx33> yellow tie ;)
<RichEd> cbx33: ubuntu thong on order ... what size ? s/m/l/xl/xxl ?
<juliux> cbx33, pls now tie
<ogra> juliux++
<juliux> cbx33, you are from the community!
<cbx33> willvdl: suggested tie ;)
<juliux> cbx33, in germany we have poloshirts and jeans and that is fine
<willvdl> cbx33 and lots of childrens
<RichEd> yep ... we want a soft human approach ... linux is friendly ... not business
<cbx33> maybe I can take some of our kids up there?
<cbx33> from the school
<cbx33> heheh
<juliux> cbx33, buy some candies for the booth then the people will come to you and you can talk with them,
<willvdl> feed them sugar before hand
* ogra would vote for both ... business and friendly ... but if we only have one person at the stand it shouldnt be business :)
<cbx33> ahhh good idea
<RichEd> cbx33: if we end up funding your transport, perhaps they can give you seat on the bus to one of your kids from your school for the day trip ?
<juliux> cbx33, and you can offer it to the people so you have first concat
<juliux> cbx33, we did this at cebit and it was a great success
<juliux> cbx33, because the people come to you without an interest in linux/ubuntu/edubuntu
<RichEd> and cbx33 make sure you visit the other Open Source people at their stand while they are setting up, to show a united group presence ... they will send people across to you
<juliux> sorry not interest
<RichEd> if anyone has ideas, send to me and/or pete
<RichEd> cbx33: can you set up a wiki page ?
<cbx33> yes
<juliux> cbx33, try to get a lof of ubuntu/edubuntu flyers
<RichEd> it will make it easier for me to request the conference packs and other goodies
<RichEd> --- Linux Conference Australia --- this happens the week after BETT - mid jan
<cbx33> cool
<juliux> cbx33, do you have some thinclients?
<cbx33> shall I create a Conferences ;)
<RichEd> There is a special education focus Mini-Conference
<cbx33> and the Confereces/BETT2007
<Kamping_Kaiser> RichEd, do you know if your going to make lca?
<RichEd> Mark has passed on an invite for me to attned, and he confirmed yesterday.
<juliux> cbx33, the vistors loves to see thinclients
<RichEd> So that's a yes.
<Kamping_Kaiser> woot.
* Kamping_Kaiser prioritises education miniconf
<cbx33> yes thin clients would be good
<RichEd> Jono will be there at the main conference, and Keybuk as well, and ?Matthew? Garret
<juliux> cbx33, do you have some?
<ogra> cbx33, if you dont have thinc clients, just take two laptops ;)
<RichEd> I have been asked to deliver a paper ... 30-60 mins ... and I am seeing if Jono and I can do a join presentation.
<RichEd> *joint*
<cbx33> yes was thinking of that
<juliux> ogra, thinclients are cooler
<cbx33> RichEd: any chance on getting some hardware borrowed from anywhere?
<juliux> cbx33, should we send you some thinclients for BETT ?
<juliux> cbx33, we have 3 thinclients for the expos in germany
<RichEd> cbx33: we are sharing a stand by invite, so I don't think we can take too much space ... especially with equipment.
<cbx33> RichEd: I know that
<cbx33> ;)
<cbx33> we could have 2 laptops back to back
<cbx33> on a small table ;)
<cbx33> high table ;)
<ogra> not to high, for the kids :)
<juliux> cbx33, take a notebook as server but it under the desk and the thinclient on the desk;)
<cbx33> could do
<RichEd> if what you can demomstrate live is significant compared to a canned demo ... then we can try
<juliux> s/but/put
<cbx33> hmm....would be nice to have an admin machine to show off like SCP etc
<RichEd> that makes sense ...
<juliux> cbx33, did you have a vga,ps2 switch?
<cbx33> hmmm
<cbx33> could do
<ogra> even just running gcompris to get the attraction of kids is already helpful ;)
<cbx33> but having them use a machine and me shutdown their browser
<RichEd> What would be even cooler is to have a remote machine you can control ... perhaps on another (linux friendly) stand ...
<cbx33> yes
<RichEd> Put some ideas together ... and let's see what we come up with.
<cbx33> in hte the cafe ;)
<RichEd> Susy would drop her lip :)
<RichEd> Time is short ... let's take this as a side bar, and discuss in more detail next weeks meeting.
<cbx33> ok
<cbx33> I'll create the wiki
<RichEd> We'l also cover some discussion on LCA next week, but this is an early call for potential networking with LoCo or LUG people in Australia.
<Kamping_Kaiser> ping me with the next meetin gimte and i'll make it
<Kamping_Kaiser> *meeting time
<RichEd> This will probably be my *only* visit to Australia (and ony Edubuntu / Education visit) ... so I would like to meet as many people as I can.
<cbx33> I have to go now
<cbx33> we'll discuss later
<cbx33> thatnks guys for all the help
<RichEd> I am happy to say a day extra (before or after) and perhaps to do 1 internal travel trip ...
<willvdl> cool
<RichEd> I'll also set up a wiki page, and chat to people like Bimberi etc.
<ogra> make sure to meet jdub if you are there :)
<RichEd> Yep. JaneW has already said I must, and she said somethign about his wife being an organiser (of LCA I think)
<Kamping_Kaiser> correct
<RichEd> Briefly, on my presentation: I want to do some stuff on Edubuntu and the Ubuntu family, but also to talk about how we can try to extend the Open Source Development philosophy & community collaboration into areas like support for education, and education projects themselves.
<RichEd> So I will do an overview of Edulinux ... and our Community Space ... with the idea being that we want to attract as many people to join our (ed)Ubuntu communtiy and lists as possible - even if they use another distro.
<RichEd> When they see our superior distro, and the brilliant community we have, then they will migrate themselves when they see the light./
<willvdl> naturally
* Kamping_Kaiser blink
<RichEd> That's all from me ... any other topics or loose ends from anyine else ?
<willvdl> I'm shattered
<willvdl> I'll do minutes a bit later
<RichEd> ogra ? anything else ?
<ogra> nope
<ogra> i'm fine
<RichEd> okay thanks guys ... see you all next week ...
<Kamping_Kaiser> i'll try and make it
<Kamping_Kaiser> but (unfortunately) cant promice anything
<willvdl> hopefully doc guys will be there next week
<ogra> Kamping_Kaiser, its next wednesday at 20:00 UTC
<RichEd> Kamping_Kaiser: I'll mail you with my arrangements for the trip. Are you in or close to Sydney ?
<Kamping_Kaiser> RichEd, i dont live close, but i will be going to the conf
<Kamping_Kaiser> ogra, eek.
<RichEd> Great. I'm booking at Harmony b.t.w. for accomodation.
<Kamping_Kaiser> thats..*thinks* 5am thursday
<Kamping_Kaiser> i'm in the accom you can get at the conf. i'm going pov this year :)
* Kamping_Kaiser disapears from -meeting
<Kamping_Kaiser> still in #edubuntu though ;)
<willvdl> ciao folks. gotto do the next thing before traffic!
<RichEd> bye all
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:Ubugtu] : Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 14 Dec 16:00 UTC: Ubuntu Development Team | 19 Dec 20:00 UTC: Technical Board | 20 Dec 20:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 21 Dec 21:00 UTC: Ubuntu Development Team | 27 Dec 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 28 Dec 08:00 UTC: Ubuntu Development Team
<imbrandon> @topic
<Seveas> not on the refrigerator yet
<imbrandon> Seveas: ??
<imbrandon> http://fridge.ubuntu.com/node/671
<ajmitch> it's on the page, just not in the rss?
<imbrandon> yea it is
<imbrandon> ahh
<imbrandon> not in rss
<Seveas> ical
<Seveas> @schedule
<Ubugtu> Schedule for Etc/UTC: 14 Dec 16:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 19 Dec 20:00: Technical Board | 20 Dec 20:00: Edubuntu | 21 Dec 21:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 27 Dec 12:00: Edubuntu | 28 Dec 08:00: Ubuntu Development Team
<ajmitch> right
<Seveas> interesting, it IS in the ical file
<Seveas> @config channel plugins.webcal.dotopic
<Ubugtu> True
<Seveas> @config channel plugins.webcal.url
<Ubugtu> http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event/ical
<tsmithe> Seveas, and his godly Ubugtu magic!
<Seveas> @topic
<Seveas> @reload Webcal
<Seveas> that should do it ;)
<Seveas> @topic
<Seveas> @schedule
<Ubugtu> Schedule for Etc/UTC: 14 Dec 16:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 15 Dec 20:00: MOTU | 19 Dec 20:00: Technical Board | 20 Dec 20:00: Edubuntu | 21 Dec 21:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 27 Dec 12:00: Edubuntu
<Seveas> ok, so @topic is broken
<Seveas> too tired to look at
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:Ubugtu] : Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 14 Dec 16:00 UTC: Ubuntu Development Team | 15 Dec 20:00 UTC: MOTU | 19 Dec 20:00 UTC: Technical Board | 20 Dec 20:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 21 Dec 21:00 UTC: Ubuntu Development Team | 27 Dec 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu
#ubuntu-meeting 2006-12-14
<Hobbsee> @schedule sydney
<Ubugtu> Schedule for Australia/Sydney: 15 Dec 03:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 16 Dec 07:00: MOTU | 20 Dec 07:00: Technical Board | 21 Dec 07:00: Edubuntu | 22 Dec 08:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 27 Dec 23:00: Edubuntu
<Hobbsee> 7am.  not quite so bad.
<snail> @schedule london
<Ubugtu> Schedule for Europe/London: 14 Dec 16:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 15 Dec 20:00: MOTU | 19 Dec 20:00: Technical Board | 20 Dec 20:00: Edubuntu | 21 Dec 21:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 27 Dec 12:00: Edubuntu
* pitti waves
<mdz> good morning all
<ogra> morning
<fabbione> yo yo
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:Ubugtu] : Current meeting: Ubuntu Development Team | Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 15 Dec 20:00 UTC: MOTU | 19 Dec 20:00 UTC: Technical Board | 20 Dec 20:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 21 Dec 21:00 UTC: Ubuntu Development Team | 27 Dec 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu
<dholbach> hellas
<sfllaw> Morning.
<Keybuk> dholbach, seb128, fabbione, Riddell, pitti, doko, mvo, Mithrandir: ping (five minutes)
<mvo> hello Keybuk
<fabbione> 16:50 <fabbione> yo yo
<Keybuk> sfllaw: nearly forgot about you :p
* pitti waves again and gives Keybuk a special hug
<fabbione> Keybuk: you are late :)
<seb128> Keybuk: no need to ping people who just joined :p
<doko> Keybuk: pong
<seb128> oh, you just did :)
<Keybuk> joining before me is cheating
<Riddell> I'm here for now, but being on holiday I may disappear at any moment
<dholbach> Keybuk: 
<Keybuk> reminder: there is a staff meeting immediately after this one; please try to attend
<sfllaw> Keybuk: Morning.
<zul> hey
<Mithrandir> pong
<Mithrandir> I have to leave at five minutes to 18 for another (RL) meeting.
<Keybuk> 18 UTC?
<Mithrandir> no, 17 utc
<Keybuk> ah, ok; you'll miss the staff meeting
<seb128> announcing meeting > 1 day in advance would be nice :p
<ogra> yeah
<seb128> or rather 0.5 day
<seb128> I got the mail this morning
<pitti> well, schedule is settled now
<mdz> seb128: yes, but people are starting to leave on holidays and so we're in a rush
<fabbione> can we start? we need to pack this meeting in one hour
<mdz> if you can't attend, read distro-team@
<mdz> fabbione: of course my friend.  why don't you start us off?
<seb128> fabbione: good point
<fabbione> mdz: sure..
<fabbione> BenC: you first
<BenC> delay me please
<mdz> fabbione: I meant you, personally
<fabbione> mdz: eheh ok
<mdz> you're first on the list
<fabbione> feisty-toolchain: no changes since last week.
<fabbione> sparc64-installer: got network-console in main and tested. Pending fix for main-
<fabbione> menu that's under review. os-prober now recognize Solaris/SPARC installations an
<fabbione> d it can parse silo.conf to detect other Linux installations on the system. spar
<fabbione> c-utils now ships eeprom util to change values in OBP. Missing to integrate the
<fabbione> os-prober and sparc-utils changes into silo/silo-installer to create silo.conf s
<fabbione> tanza's.
<fabbione> integrity-check: created wget-udeb to provide an alternative to busybox wget tha
<fabbione> t doesn't support ssl/https.
<fabbione> spart64-niagara-ssl-accelerator: no changes since last week.
<fabbione> ubuntu-feisty-ha-cluster: no changes since last week.
<fabbione> Done
<fabbione>  * lvm2 testing with Ian. /me loves crack... Ian a bit less ;)
<fabbione>  * completed first mdadm SRU. Started investigating mdadm/evms issue reported in
<fabbione>  #67299.
<fabbione> NOTE: for who doesn't read my emails: I will be in another TZ all of next week w
<fabbione> ithout a phone and in vacation after that. Cya all next year!
<fabbione> on men.. this copy/paste was horror
<mdz> fabbione: have fun with David
<fabbione> mdz: thanks
<Keybuk> fabbione: enjoy your vacation!  and thanks for your work on udev-mdadm
<mdz> fabbione: thanks
<mdz> doko: next
<fabbione> Keybuk: i did push it back to you.. i need watershed.. once that's done i will take it over again
<Keybuk> fabbione: I saw, thanks
<doko> - merges and sync requests for main (finished except syslinux, currently stuck)
<doko> - python and java syncs and merges
<doko> - python updates, module updates for new upstream versions
<doko>   supporting python2.5 (ongoing)
<doko> - feisty-toolchain: update, enable the --hash-style=both link option
<doko> - feisty+1-toolchain: update packaging to the current state of the 4.2
<doko>   branch and trunk, update patches, forward patches upstream.
<doko> - other: starting packaging of sun-java6
<mdz> Keybuk: wasn't watershed the bit which I said needed to be added to the spec?
<mdz> doko: what's stuck re: syslinux?
* pitti wonders if doko would have some clue about the broken gdb
<Keybuk> mdz: it's in the spec, and the patch is in my inbox and just needs testing
<mdz> Keybuk: ok
<dholbach> pitti: I thought you fixed it?
<mdz> pitti: seems to be a kernel issue
<doko> mdz: the merged gfxboot not working
<Keybuk> I wasn't expecting the udev-* specs to get implemented so quickly; had them in January in my head, but others took up the challenge
<mdz> pitti: I filed a bug and Ben said it was fixed with 2.6.20
<pitti> dholbach: right, and it built locally, but the buildds still fail because of unexpected test suite failures
<doko> pitti: you fixed it?
<pitti> doko: see above
<pitti> doko: I applied the upstream patch to support .gnu.hash ELF segments
<mdz> bug 74691
<Ubugtu> Malone bug 74691 in linux-source-2.6.19 "Unable to debug under 2.6.19: Failed to read a valid object file image from memory" [High,Fix committed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/74691
<pitti> ah, that's the i386 version of that bug
<mdz> pitti: if you know more, please add it to the bug
<pitti> for me on amd64 it was 'cannot read ELF file' or so
<pitti> mdz: will do, I dealt with bug 73724
<Ubugtu> Malone bug 73724 in gdb "gdb problems with glibc 2.5" [Critical,Fix released]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/73724
<mdz> doko: do you expect sun-java6 to be able to supersede sun-java5 for feisty?
<BenC> the gdb thing is fixed in 2.6.20
<BenC> at least it was for me
<BenC> pitti: Can you confirm the gdb problem with 2.6.20?
<pitti> BenC: seb128 still got it with 2.6.20?
<seb128> pkg-create-dbgsym doesn't pass with 2.6.20
<BenC> hmm
<doko> mdz: should be; it's time enough until the release
<seb128> 2.6.17 works fine
<pitti> BenC: as I said, building gdb locally under 2.6.20 works (test suite doesn't make the build fail, but fails some tests; didn't check closely)
<pitti> anyway, let's not discuss it here
<pitti> we are tight
<pitti> in time
<seb128> pitti: well, I only tried the testsuite, not to gdb some dump
<mdz> doko: ok, cool. thanks
<mdz> BenC: next
<cjwatson> here, sorry I had to be late
<BenC> mdz: off-by-one? adding last comment
<mdz> cjwatson: next
<cjwatson> setup-console-under-usplash: No progress; needs somebody local to bug 73955 who's willing and able to dig into it.
<Ubugtu> Malone bug 73955 in console-setup "Clobbered X screen state during installation" [High,Confirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/73955
<cjwatson> intel-mac-support: Fixed up mouseemu a good deal; could people on powerpc try this out? I'll set it up soon so that it doesn't even start on non-Mac x86 machines, and then it should be ready to install by default.
<cjwatson> ubiquity-advanced-partitioner: Have mostly been staring at Gentoo UI code trying to figure out how to integrate it. I hope to have a first cut testable by Christmas.
<cjwatson> sparc64-installer: Have been helping Fabio out with various fixes related to network-console.
<cjwatson> misc: Some interest in installer team so far, though nobody yet diving into code; Henrik has been getting up to speed on the ubiquity bug list. Switched d-i to running the -generic kernel. Worked on various ite
<cjwatson> ms from my "later"-milestoned bugs, including getting the seeds switched away from using my directory on people.ubuntu.com.
<BenC> cjwatson: BTW, a lot of mactel patches went into 2.6.20
<cjwatson> excellent, thanks
<mdz> who can help out with that console/usplash bug?
<cjwatson> I'll be getting the hardware from mjg59 at some point
<Mithrandir> cjwatson: I might be able to debug 73955 given Karianne's laptop exhibits the problem, especially if you can give me a useful starting point.
<cjwatson> mdz: Mithrandir said he could
<mdz> so he hsa
<mdz> has
<Keybuk> mdz: I can, it happened to me
<cjwatson> Mithrandir: the consolechars command in the bug is a useful starting pooint
<cjwatson> point
<Mithrandir> cjwatson: ok, let's talk about it later.
<cjwatson> everything I know (not a huge amount, but >0) is in the bug
<Mithrandir> 'k
<cjwatson> if we can't fix it, we revert and lose s-c-u-u
<mdz> cjwatson: ok, thanks
<mdz> BenC: next
<BenC> :: Specs
<BenC> * driver-device-manager: NO PROGRESS
<BenC> * driver-backports: NO PROGRESS
<BenC> :: Work for past week
<BenC> * First release of 2.6.20-pre kernel. Built for all architectures. Initial testing by distro team has begun.
<BenC> * ata_piix regression fixed.
<BenC> * i82365 crash fixed.
<BenC> * Intel enabling (discussions, and so on)
<BenC> * LRM is ready for 2.6.20, uploading today.
<BenC> * All vmware modules are now in LRM (server, player and tools).
<BenC> :: Work for next week
<BenC> * Finish merges, and get 2.6.20 default in feisty.
<BenC> * Start back to work on specs.
<fabbione> BenC: expect some crack from David and me next week
<BenC> fabbione: good crack or bad crack?
<fabbione> BenC: *crack :)
<BenC> wait, you didn't so "ok, this is crack"
<mdz> BenC: how has the feedback for 2.6.20 been?
<mdz> is it also announced to -devel-announce or similar?
<BenC> mdz: Three bugs so far :/
<BenC> two of them crashes
<mdz> Keybuk: I've set you as approver on driver-backports, chat with me about it if you're uncertain about the requirements
<mdz> whee
<mdz> I'll test it on my machines here today
<cjwatson> BenC: do you want the installer switched over?
<Keybuk> BenC: lrm would be nice
<BenC> everyone note that you can test feisty kernel on edgy too
<ogra> BenC, why isnt ext4 enabled ? i'd love to play with it
<BenC> cjwatson: no, not yet
<mdz> cjwatson: it would be interesting if we could switch the desktop CD ahead of linux-meta
<BenC> ogra: It's still marked experimental
<Mithrandir> BenC: when is the plan to switch to it by default?
<ogra> BenC, oki
<BenC> Mithrandir: hopefully next week, if it doesn't eat everyone's data
<Mithrandir> BenC: ok.
<Mithrandir> (thinking herd scheduling here)
<mdz> it looks like it may be a rough ride to 2.6.20
<cjwatson> mdz: that's probably feasible with Adam's assistance
<cjwatson> will have to check ubiquity
<mdz> BenC: what about the vmware workstation modules? are they the same as server?
<BenC> I think we can expect some problems with 2.6.20, we usually don't have such an unstable kernel in at such a late devel state
<mdz> I tried to unbreak my vmware workstation install, but the modules didn't build anymore
<BenC> mdz: I can't remember if they are server or player comptable
<BenC> but one of them works
<mdz> ok
<mdz> BenC: thanks
<mdz> Riddell: you're on holiday, but since you're here, if you have an update, it's your turn :-)
<Riddell> hi
<Riddell> done: kubuntu-feisty-language-selector: implemented, worked out well
<Riddell>       kubuntu-feisty-ubiquity: ported to qt4
<Riddell> todo: holiday, but kubuntu upgrade-tool is next on my TODO
<Riddell> blocked: artists
<mdz> I will continue to nag sabdfl about artwork
<mdz> Riddell: is it blocking anything other than the artwork itself?
<Riddell> apparantly he's on holiday for the next 3 weeks :(
<Riddell> mdz: no, it's just unfair to leave the artists unsure what's happening
<mdz> Riddell: I have a call with him in 1.5 hours
<Riddell> cjwatson: my qt4 partitioning problem may have been caused by old d-i debs installed, if it works for you I think it should be merged into trunk
<Mithrandir> I haven't seen any artwork uploads, and artwork is a feature, so it needs to be generally useful by FF.
* Mithrandir chants that to himself.
<cjwatson> Riddell: yeah, that had occurred to me too
<mdz> Riddell: thanks, now go relax a little ;-)
<cjwatson> Riddell: it hung for me later on, but I'll check it out
<ogra> Mithrandir, that policy is in place since hoary
<mdz> Mithrandir: next
<Mithrandir> misc: archive admin, fixed a bunch of missing depends on update-inetd, helped twb (community member) with casper merge, poked mono problem on sparc, ran into gdb internal errors, ran away
<ogra> Mithrandir, but was ignored since it exists :)
<Mithrandir> grub2: played around with grub2 on one of my systems, seems to work.  Jeff Bailey has done some work to fix up update-grub, I need to look into that.
<Mithrandir> network-roaming: no progress
<Mithrandir> changelog-closes-bugs: no further progress
<Mithrandir> feisty-release-schedule: put the herds on the schedule; slightly scary scheduling wrt gnome releases, so we might want to adjust if it doesn't work out.
<Mithrandir> next week: fix up random bits before I go on vacation from Tuesday
<mdz> Mithrandir: are you still confident about getting network-roaming finished? that's quite important
<Mithrandir> mdz: yes.
<mdz> much higher priority than grub2
<Mithrandir> sure.
<mdz> Mithrandir: is changelog-closes-bugs still under discussion in Debian?
<mdz> if there isn't consensus there, we should still proceed
<Mithrandir> mdz: I don't think they're entirely happy, but I think they'll take the patch.
<mdz> oh, good
<mdz> Mithrandir: thanks
<mdz> ogra: next
<ogra> * last week:
<ogra>  - merged debian ltsp patches
<ogra>  - started working on edubuntu-network-auth-server/client
<ogra>  - switched ltsp to openbsd-inetd (pitti, please approve before christmas holiday so ltsp is installable during our holiday)
<ogra>  - started a lts.conf parser for ltsp-management-gui
<ogra>  - new gnome-power-manager
<ogra> 
<ogra> * next week:
<ogra>  - fix final ltsp merge bugs (new locale plugin handling etc)
<ogra>  - more work on e-n-a-s
<pitti> ogra: oh, ok, will do
<ogra>  - more work on ltsp-management-gui
<ogra>  - more work on edgy-plusone-thinclient-sound
<ogra> 
<ogra> * approved specs:
<ogra>  - ltsp-fat-clients - partially implemented, good user feedback
<ogra>  - edubuntu-network-auth-server - started
<ogra>  - edubuntu-network-auth-client - not started
<ogra>  - edgy-plusone-thinclient-sound - started
<ogra>  - ltsp-management-gui - started
<ogra>  - student-control-panel-upgrade - not started
<ogra>  - edubuntu-on-two-cds - not started
<ogra>  - ltsp-persistent-home - started by sbalneav (waiting for code review)
<ogra> sorry for missing last week btw
<ogra> pitti, its not urgent, but needs to be in place before herd12
<ogra> err
<ogra> 2
<pitti> ogra: will try to do today before I get drawn into something else again
<ogra> mdz, did you see vagrants answer to my mail -> policy violation ?
<mdz> ogra: I don't think so
<ogra> he showed some valid pointers from the release policy for etch
<mdz> ogra: is there a target release date for upstream ltsp 5?
<ogra> apparently the debian RM's dchanged the wording from "conffile" to "config file"
<ogra> it will release latest with feisty ....
<ogra> depends on the other implementations as well
<pitti> ogra: conffile vs. config file is animportant difference...
<mdz> ogra: debian RMs don't have the authority to change policy, and that sounds like an error
<ogra> (redhat and gentoo want to have *something* at least)
<mdz> forbidding maintainer scripts from touching all configuration files would be, er, extreme
<Keybuk> wouldn't that make debconf illegal?
<mdz> anyway I don't think it's necessary to modify /etc/modules in this case, as I said
<mdz> but let's discuss it outside of the meeting
<mdz> ogra: thanks
<mdz> mvo: next
<cjwatson>         Packages must not modify their own or other packages conffiles
<cjwatson>         programmatically.
<ogra>     Packages must not modify other packages' configuration files
<cjwatson> sorry, -> #ubuntu-devel
<ogra>     except by an agreed upon APIs (eg, a /usr/sbin/update-foo command).
<ogra> thast from an RM mail he quoted
<mvo> Did:
<mvo> - Mail/Bugtriage
<mvo> - apt work (catchup with debian patches, prepared SRU for edgy)
<mvo> - unattended-upgrades mail notification added
<mvo> - work on better commercial software support in g-a-i
<mvo> - auto-distupgrader work (fixes in the conffile decetion, tested on ppc as well)
<mvo> - CommonCustomizations work
<mvo> - free space checking in dist-upgrader rewritten
<mvo> - misc merges/uploads (gnome-commander, python-distutils-extas, python-aptutils, dhcp, iptraf, apt-listchanges, python-support,central)
<mvo> - Implemented .dsc file build-dep satisfy in gdebi (for iwj auto-pkgtest)
<mvo> - some work on the server upgrade tool
<mvo> Specs:
<mvo> - automatic-upgrade-testing waits for deployment in the datacenter (so blocked currently)
<mdz> ogra: RMs don't decide policy
<mvo> Will do:
<mvo> - merges
<mvo> - CommonCustomizations
<mdz> mvo: how has edgy->feisty upgrade testing been so far?
<mvo> mdz: pretty good actually. I do it on a i386 here regularly and found that it works rather well
<mdz> mvo: any issues identified by sysadmin regarding the upgrade testing? or just needs time?
<mdz> they have been quick with most things
<mvo> I may say "unexpetecedly" well even with 4200 package s installed
<mvo> I got no feedback whats blocking the datacenter install, I guess not enough machines
<mvo> but that is just a guess
<mvo> I also ran it on dholbach ppc successfully
<mvo> (thanks dholbach for letting me on the machine :)
<dholbach> mvo: for you anytime... ;-)
<mdz> mvo: ok, thanks
<mdz> heno: next
<heno> Done:
<heno>  * access-gdm: Upstream are still keen to go the AT-SPI route. That now seems doable with GDM. Not sure about FaceBrowser.
<heno>  * multilingual-speech: More work on eSpeak voices, but I've not had time to do a larger community push yet.
<heno>  * bug-triage: started helping with ubiquity bugs and reading uiquity code. Wrote a simple script (which dholbach later cleaned up :) ) to assist in some basic triaging tasks. It only does some basic dupe searching ATM, but might grow into something useful. See: http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~dholbach/bughelper/bughelper.dev
<heno>  * launchpad: read up on some launchpad/distro discussions from the past and attended a weekly launchpad meeting. If there are issues you want raised with the LP team you can channel them through me.
<heno>  * Other: started monitoring a few forum sections, esp Feisty-development with the aim of lifting out useful info, such as important bugs not reported in Malone.
<heno> .
<heno> To do:
<heno>  * bug-triage: more ubiquity triage. Update https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DebuggingUbiquity with known Edgy bugs. Look at doing the same with other packages (which in turn serves as input for the bughelper script). Pointers to existing such pages welcome.
<heno>  * launchpad: Work with matthewrevell on ideas for distro-lp cross linking, including Fix-it Fridays.
<heno>  * multilingual-speech: Help community people get started on new eSpeak voices
<mdz> heno: did you have a chance to work on that letter to the forums we discussed?
<heno> mdz: just bullet points so far
<cjwatson> ooh, thanks for bughelper, I must investigate that
<heno> mdz: in the next few days I should have a draft
<mdz> heno: and please talk with sfllaw to work out how to file important bugs from the forums such that a) they aren't lost in the noise, and b) someone gets subscribed to the bug who can participate in debugging
<heno> cjwatson: its very simple ...
<dholbach> cjwatson: there's a discussion going on on ubuntu-bugsquad@ which might turn into wiki pages with ideas - the 'official branch' should be ~bugsquad/bughelper/bughelper.main
<heno> mdz: right, colin and have started a bit with ubiquity bugs from there
<mdz> heno: (unless it's obvious what the bug is and how to fix it without their participation)
<heno> Im trying to educate a bit as I bgo along
<mdz> heno: I like the idea of adding known high-visibility bugs to the debugging info pages
<heno> right
<mdz> heno: perhaps we could make that more automatic by tagging the bugs which should appear there
<cjwatson> yeah, that was something I did with dapper
<cjwatson> doing the same for edgy would be great
<heno> or just make a page for each major pkg, xorg, ff, oo, ect
<heno> some exist already
<heno> but they should be better structured and linked to
<mdz> heno: yes, another idea I've had is to group bugs based on user experience, e.g. problems booting, logging in, using the desktop, display issues, etc.
<mdz> heno: to make it easier for users to find existing bugs, when they don't know the package affected
<mdz> heno: perhaps we should have a longer discussion on ubuntu-devel
<mdz> need to move on here
<mdz> heno: thanks
<mdz> dholbach: next
<heno> sounds good
<dholbach> Done:
<dholbach>  * code-review: announced trial period, got feedback
<dholbach>  * automatic-art-builder: mailed Mark, mailed artist who was interested in it, no feedback
<dholbach>  * lots of bug triage
<dholbach>  * started hacking on Henrik's bughelper
<dholbach> Todo:
<dholbach>  * 2.17.4
<dholbach>  * more bug triage
<dholbach>  * hacking on Henrik's bughelper
<dholbach>  * bug day
<dholbach>  * hacking on the art builder and push the artwork people some more. :-)
<dholbach>  * (revu day?)
<pitti> heno: I'd glad to talk to you about that bughelper code wrt. apport and bug-reporting-tool integration
<pitti> heno: s/glad/be glad/
<dholbach> pitti: i thought about stealing your bug patterns idea :)
<mdz> dholbach: so no one using the art builder yet?
<heno> pitti: cool, lets schedule afterwards
<dholbach> mdz: effectively, no :-/
<mdz> urgh
<mdz> dholbach: please send me a link to the announcement on ubuntu-art and I'll see if I can help stir up some interest
<mdz> dholbach: thanks
<mdz> seb128: next
<dholbach> mdz:  alright
<seb128> Specs:
<seb128> * easy-codec-installation: no change (mdz, any reply from tim?)
<seb128> * tab-consistency: not started
<seb128> * desktop-slab: no change, package available to universe, waiting for upstream to know if they will ship the gnome-main-menu applet with GNOME 2.18
<seb128> .
<seb128> Done:
<seb128> * catching up with bugs, backlog around 400 now
<seb128> * played with compiz and started updating to the new version
<seb128> * a bunch of desktop updates
<seb128> .
<seb128> To do:
<seb128> * upload tracker (0.5.3 with fixed copyright mentions will before next week)
<seb128> * update compiz, look at compiz tools package available on revu, contact the guy packaging the to know if he's interested to work join MOTU and work on those packages and compiz
<seb128> * keep bug triaging
<seb128> * start working on tab-consistency
<seb128> * GNOME 2.17.4
<ogra> dholbach, i'll point cbx33 to you as well, his wife leads the edubuntu artteam ...
<mdz> seb128: yes, tim will complete the gstreamer work by 31 dec
<seb128> mdz: excellent, thanks
<dholbach> ogra: thanks
<mdz> seb128: I asked him to mail patches to you and iwj when he has them
<seb128> ok
<pitti> seb128: please tell me that the newer compiz versions don't suck so much any more
<seb128> pitti: it should be better, that's why I'm working on the update :)
<mdz> seb128: if upstream ships gnome-main-menu, do we have transition work to do?  or leave existing users with the old menu on upgrade?
<seb128> and understand workspaces
<seb128> mdz: they will not ship it by default, just as an option (like the simple icon menu amt)
<seb128> atm
<seb128> (simple icon menu = the windows like menu, with the logo which opens one menu)
<mdz> ah ,ok
<mdz> seb128: thanks
<mdz> pitti: next
<pitti> Done:
<pitti>  * merges for main: practically done, (enigmail: we have to permanently fork due to Debian's icedove madness, linux-wlan-ng: Debian has a SVN snapshot instead of stable release, have to evaluate)
<pitti>  * zero-configuration-networking: implemented the last unimportant, but hairy bits, now fully complete; announced to -devel, suggested for next UWN. Enjoy!
<pitti>  * mount-all-local-filesystems: implemented, announced to -devel. Enjoy!
<pitti>  * gnome-mount: discussed de-gnomeification with Xubuntu guys; will eventually happen upstream and not urgent for Xubuntu, thus I set this to Blocked and will just let it sit; fully implemented for Ubuntu's purposes (except that mounting encrypted devices doesn't work, but that's udev-device-mapper)
<pitti>  * uploaded g-s-t/s-t-backends/couple of applets SRU to -proposed after cjwatson's review (bug 59946); waiting for button push by an archive admin
<Ubugtu> Malone bug 59946 in gnome-system-tools "Admin tools require admin group membership" [High,In progress]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/59946
<pitti>  * fixed avahi regression from last security update
<pitti>  * dapper/edgy langpacks made it to -updates
<pitti>  * put a considerable dent into my bugs mbox, now < 1000 \o/
<pitti>  * ~/.xsession-errors handling: posted options to -devel, waiting for more feedback
<pitti> Todo:
<pitti>  * do my share of universe merges
<pitti>  * more bug triage
<pitti>  * but: tomorrow is my last official workday for this year, then: holiday! I'll probably do some bits next week (hacking on apport, yummy), but I have some christmas preparations to do, so don't expect too much
<doko> pitti: do we target tb-2.0 for feisty?
<pitti> doko: didn't spend any thoughts about it, but if it arrives on time, sure
<cjwatson> I'll do g-s-t after these meetings
<pitti> it has very few reverse dependencies
<mdz> pitti: please register a new spec for mounting local filesystems on the live CD and add it to the list for the sprint, I'd like to talk about this
<pitti> cjwatson: thank you (also for the review and your eagle eye)
<Mithrandir> pitti: z-c-n seems to have blown up quite badly for me, I need to sit down and find out what's going on, but it has mostly broken NM for me.
<pitti> mdz: unless you want them to be automatically mounted this should just work
<mdz> pitti: consider splitting gnome-mount since the core part is implemented
<pitti> mdz: and I wouldn't like them to be automounted
<mdz> pitti: I want them to be automatically mounted :-)
<mdz> at least in some cases. and so do many users
<pitti> mdz: gnome-mount-xubuntu split? sounds fine
<mdz> let's talk through the issues at the sprint
<mdz> see if we can do something useful
<pitti> Mithrandir: ok, let's debug this at some time
<Mithrandir> pitti: yeah; not here. :-)
<pitti> mdz: right; shouldn't be hard to do anyway
<pitti> mdz: automount> urgh
<ogra> heh
<mdz> pitti: ok, thanks
<mdz> zul: next
<ogra> pitti, according to the feedback to your announcement, thats what everybody expected :)
<kylem> he just said on #-kernel he's gone for lunch
<pitti> ogra: I didn't interpret it that way
<BenC> <zul> Worked on xen
<ogra> pitti, i know :)
<mdz> sfllaw: next
<sfllaw> Done:
<sfllaw>  * Bug triage
<sfllaw>  * Documentation
<sfllaw>  * SRUs: openoffice.org
<sfllaw>  * Interviewed another intern
<sfllaw>  * Accepted three interns for me.  One for Jeff.
<sfllaw> To do:
<sfllaw>  * SRUs: vino, udev, initramfs-tools
<sfllaw>  * Bug triage
<sfllaw>  * Hug day
<mdz> sfllaw: everything sorted with equipment for interns?
<sfllaw>  * Accepting people into Ubuntu QA
<sfllaw>  * Paperwork for interns
<sfllaw> Blocked:
<sfllaw>  * SRUs: synaptic (cjwatson & mvo?)
<sfllaw> heno: Thanks for being the LP-Distro bridge.
* sfllaw hugs heno.
<sfllaw> I asked jbailey to put in an order.
<sfllaw> Continuing to ping him until he does.
<mdz> sfllaw: could we start getting the open bug stats weekly again?  stub can add them to cricket to make that a simple matter
<cjwatson> sfllaw: yeah, erm, blush
* cjwatson notes it in yet another place
<mdz> sfllaw: is there progress on making the text changes to launchpad for bug workflow? (e.g., statuses)
<sfllaw> UWN has them, actually.
<sfllaw> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuWeeklyNewsletter/Issue24
<sfllaw> But I'll ask stubs to make better cricket things for us.
<mdz> not sure how the schedule matches the one for these meetings, but at any rate, it's useful
<sfllaw> mdz: I haven't heard anything from the LP people.  But am looking forward to their Fridays in January.
<sfllaw> mdz: I'll bug BjornT then, but am unsure how quickly he'll prioritize.
<sfllaw> It's not like bradb, where I could bribe him with beer.
<mdz> sfllaw: please mail steve/kiko instead, they determine the priorities
<Mithrandir> ok, I need to go now; see you all later.
<mdz> and as i understood it this was a small change
<mdz> sfllaw: thanks
<mdz> Keybuk: next
<sfllaw> OK.  Will put some pressure on them.
<Keybuk> Done
<Keybuk>     *
<Keybuk>       finished off upstart specs necessary for feisty
<Keybuk>     *
<Keybuk>       borrowed binary-driver-education from mvo; will be integrating with BenC's device manager
<Keybuk>     *
<Keybuk>       started work on upstart
<Keybuk> To do
<Keybuk>     *
<Keybuk>       upstart development for replacement initscripts
<Keybuk>     *
<Keybuk>       get udev into shape as it's blocking a couple of other specs now
<Keybuk>     *
<Keybuk>       holiday (mostly as an excuse to only work 8 hours a day <g>)
<Keybuk> (bah, pasted badly; sorry)
<mdz> Keybuk: have you started looking at accelerated-x?
<Keybuk> mdz: yes
<Keybuk> I have it working here
<mdz> Keybuk: ok, thanks
<mdz> kylem: next
<kylem> Done:
<kylem>   * Backported ipw3945 1.1.3 to feisty/edgy/dapper
<kylem>   * Fix build of ipw3945 on dapper kernels
<kylem>   * Fixed a large portion of ubuntu/ for INIT_WORK changes
<kylem>   * Update sky2/tg3 for dapper-updates
<kylem>   * Backport forcedeth for dapper-updates/edgy-updates
<kylem>   * Update net_driver compat header for dapper
<kylem>   * d80211 INIT_WORK cleanups for ubuntu-2.6.git (with mjg59)
<kylem> Todo:
<kylem>   * Merge the -proposed trees with Ben's and upload
<kylem>   * CVE-2006-4572 fix for dapper-security/breezy-security
<mdz> kylem: cool, thanks
<mdz> missed anyone?
<fabbione> -3 minutes to deadline
<tkamppeter_> Me.
<sfllaw> Can I please ask everyone to update https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DevelTeamMeeting20061214 with their summaries?  Thanks.
<mdz> tkamppeter_: next
<tkamppeter_> DONE:
<tkamppeter_> - Answered to bug reports
<tkamppeter_> - Fixed regression in HPLIP (missing SANE driver after last upstream update,
<tkamppeter_>   re-fixes bug 65908, doko, take care of not breaking this with the next
<tkamppeter_>   upstream update of HPLIP)
<Ubugtu> Malone bug 65908 in hplip "libsane-hpaio.so not shipped anymore" [Critical,Fix released]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/65908
<tkamppeter_> - Made a suggestion for handling the case that the GUI of HPLIP needs
<tkamppeter_>   Python/Qt which is not on the desktop CD, but no answer so far
<tkamppeter_>   (bug 67892)
<Ubugtu> Malone bug 67892 in hplip "HPLIP failed to start PyQt/Qt missing" [Medium,Confirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/67892
<tkamppeter_> - Submitted new package SpliX (driver for cheapo laser printers from
<tkamppeter_>   Samsung, more reliable than old "gdi" driver (pitti tried it out),
<tkamppeter_>   introduces support for color lasers), fixes bug 44407, bug 63802, and
<Ubugtu> Malone bug 44407 in foomatic-db "Samsung clp510 not working" [Medium,Needs info]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/44407
<Ubugtu> Malone bug 63802 in cupsys "[Edgy]  unable to install printer Samsung CLP 510" [Medium,Needs info]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/63802
<tkamppeter_>   bug 59829 (package not in Debian)
<Ubugtu> Malone bug 59829 in Ubuntu "No driver for Samsung ML-1610 printer" [Wishlist,Needs info]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/59829
<tkamppeter_> - Prepared better support for Brother's bw lasers in foomatic-db upstream.
<tkamppeter_>   See announcement on www.linuxprinting.org front page and
<tkamppeter_>   http://forums.openprinting.org/read.php?24,106 This gives access to
<tkamppeter_>   HQ1200 (2400x600 dpi), Duplex, tray selection Economode, and password-
<tkamppeter_>   protected printing to all Brother lasers (should even make the
<tkamppeter_>   PostScript and PCL models working better).
<tkamppeter_> 
<mdz> tkamppeter_: note that the meeting schedule has changed somewhat to alternate between 1600 UTC and 2100 UTC.  you should be able to attend each meeting now, yes?
<tkamppeter_> Yes, it is easier for me now. Last week I could not attend because I was on travel to Portland for the OSDL Desktop Architects Meeting.
<mdz> tkamppeter_: ok, we'll include you in the normal roll then
<mdz> tkamppeter_: thanks
<tkamppeter_> When I arrived in the hotel I started xchat and the meeting was just over.
<mdz> that's a wrap, folks.  note that a canonical meeting follows immediately
<sfllaw> Can we have a short break.
<sfllaw> ?
<BenC> later everyone
<ranf> bug 73955
<Ubugtu> Malone bug 73955 in console-setup "Clobbered X screen state during installation" [High,Confirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/73955
<ranf> bug 67299
<Ubugtu> Malone bug 67299 in mdadm "mdadm causes boot to hang for 4 minutes" [High,Needs info]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/67299
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:Ubugtu] : Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 15 Dec 20:00 UTC: MOTU | 19 Dec 20:00 UTC: Technical Board | 20 Dec 20:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 21 Dec 21:00 UTC: Ubuntu Development Team | 27 Dec 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 28 Dec 08:00 UTC: Ubuntu Development Team
<keeb_> and i was liekkkkkkk
<keeb_> hi2u
<juliux> @schedule berlin
<Ubugtu> Schedule for Europe/Berlin: 15 Dec 21:00: MOTU | 19 Dec 21:00: Technical Board | 20 Dec 21:00: Edubuntu | 21 Dec 22:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 27 Dec 13:00: Edubuntu | 28 Dec 09:00: Ubuntu Development Team
#ubuntu-meeting 2006-12-15
<dholbach> ?
<jsgotangco> :)
<dholbach> sorry
<jsgotangco> ah
<juliux> @schedule berlin
<Ubugtu> Schedule for Europe/Berlin: 15 Dec 21:00: MOTU | 19 Dec 21:00: Technical Board | 20 Dec 21:00: Edubuntu | 21 Dec 22:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 27 Dec 13:00: Edubuntu | 28 Dec 09:00: Ubuntu Development Team
<Maikel> @schedule amsterdam
<Ubugtu> Schedule for Europe/Amsterdam: 15 Dec 21:00: MOTU | 19 Dec 21:00: Technical Board | 20 Dec 21:00: Edubuntu | 21 Dec 22:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 27 Dec 13:00: Edubuntu | 28 Dec 09:00: Ubuntu Development Team
<Reichstag> http://www.priceslashsoftware.com - These programs (e.g. Adobe Acrobat) may be downloaded after paying. So are these programs legal after payment?
<Toadstool> @schedule los_angeles
<Ubugtu> Schedule for America/Los_Angeles: 15 Dec 12:00: MOTU | 19 Dec 12:00: Technical Board | 20 Dec 12:00: Edubuntu | 21 Dec 13:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 27 Dec 04:00: Edubuntu | 28 Dec 00:00: Ubuntu Development Team
<nixternal> los_angeles + 2 = chicago
<Toadstool> :)
<amendt> What is more costly? 1. Hosting the software and all the security fixes or 2. Programing better code (assuming normal hourly wages)  backdrop Microsoft ignores fixing its Word wordprocesor is that because no programer knows how to fix it or is too costly to upload all the fixes?
<mruiz> hello mvo
<mruiz> ping nixternal
<nixternal> pong mruiz
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:Ubugtu] : Current meeting: MOTU | Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 19 Dec 20:00 UTC: Technical Board | 20 Dec 20:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 21 Dec 21:00 UTC: Ubuntu Development Team | 27 Dec 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 28 Dec 08:00 UTC: Ubuntu Development Team
<nixternal> hola
<dholbach> Hello everybody
<ajmitch> daniel!
<Toadstool> heya!
<bddebian> Heya gents
<dholbach> Let's get started
<sistpoty> hi folks
<dholbach> It's nice to have a MOTU meeting again and we even have an agenda!
<dholbach> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/Meetings
<ajmitch> thanks to sistpoty for getting this organised
<dholbach> sistpoty and other put "Set agenda for MOTU Council" on the agenda... so why not start with that? :)
<mruiz> hello everybody
<sistpoty> sounds sane
<sistpoty> dholbach: will you give us a short introduction to the planned motu council and the status?
<dholbach> Alrighty... I hope everybody had a look at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MotuProcessesSpec already
<ajmitch> aka council grayskull :)
<dholbach> it's a spec that was written during UDS and we had quite some MOTU participation on it
<dholbach> two things came together in that time: first: we wanted to speed up and improve some of processes
<dholbach> second: the TB and CC wanted to delegate their power to approve ubuntu-dev members to another council
<dholbach> the spec is approved by the TB already and the next TB meeting will get the Council started
<dholbach> the council will consist of five people who will do the following jobs:
<dholbach>  * approve new MOTUs (this is a good thing since we know the people best and will have more time during our meetings), however the TB will have the final word (this will be done via email)
<zul>  /win 10
<dholbach>  * organize MOTU processes
<dholbach>  * run regular meetings
<dholbach>  * deal with problems that might come up
<dholbach> are there any questions up until now?
<crimsun_> (all clear here.)
<zul> nope
<dholbach> Ok cool.
<mruiz> no questions
<dholbach> Are there any other tasks that you can think of, the MOTU Council should take over?
<ajmitch> (given that it'll be 5 busy people anyway)
<ajmitch> loading the council members with too many tasks may doom it to failure
<dholbach> I want to clarify the point 'organize MOTU processes' a bit. This of course does not mean that the Council will just decide. We will try to get a consensus wherever we can.
<dholbach> The Council will have to organize all the related Council processes very clearly, to avoid what ajmitch just said.
<mruiz> what's about design a roadmap to help people to join MOTU team?
<zul> whats the term of the council?
<dholbach> The Council will want to keep the work load small
<crimsun_> zul: I was just going to ask that. :)
<minghua> does the council need to delegate some of the tasks?
<crimsun_> I propose that the term corresponds in length with the SRU team's.
<minghua> because I see a lot of stuff to do in the spec
<dholbach> zul: i'll add that to the spec, I suggest one year, but it's not in the spec - that's something the TB should be able to clarify.
<dholbach> crimsun_: half a year?
<ajmitch> minghua: delegation will be done, certainly
<ajmitch> motus aren't going to get off lightly :)
<crimsun_> dholbach: yes
<bddebian> darn
<dholbach> crimsun_: my concern is that setting up a new council might take a while
<dholbach> crimsun_: but I'll leave that up for discussion for the TB meeting
<ajmitch> especially as it requires approval by TB
<dholbach> added that to the spec
<crimsun_> dholbach: true. We could stagger the selections, then, to occur say one month in advance of the new Council's start.
<sistpoty> dholbach: how long do you estimate that it takes until the new council is in place?
<dholbach> Are there any questions about the new MOTU approval process?
<dholbach> crimsun_: if you want to add that to the spec document, that's cool with me.
<crimsun_> dholbach: ok, queued.
<dholbach> sistpoty: I have Mark's word on "next TB meeting (unless there are objections)"
<dholbach> sistpoty: from what I've heard they're very happy to delegate the task, so I imagine it won't take long
<dholbach> sistpoty informed me there was a discussion around having an Interim Council
<dholbach> I'd prefer to not have to do this. I know that we're all keen to see the Council in place, but I'm not convinced that it would be worth the effort to create one
<sistpoty> dholbach: are the members elected/chosen (on what base)/determined by random() *g*?
<ajmitch> when is next TB meeting? january?
<dholbach> I additionally don't see where we are blocked at the moment without such a Council (until the TB meeting).
<dholbach> ajmitch: I suppose so
* siretart waves
<ajmitch> hey siretart
<dholbach> sistpoty: I talked to a couple of people and asked them if they could imagine being on that Council - in the end only the TB and CC will decide
<dholbach> and we'll see the decision coming on soon
<dholbach> Are there any questions about the new MOTU approval process?
* siretart is a bit confused. why is the problem with having an interim council?
<sistpoty> dholbach: so you make a suggestion to the tb, and they will decide?
<siretart> I remeber that there was some discussion about not approving new ubuntu-dev members, because there will be a motu concil in place soon
<dholbach> siretart: it would require us to vote and set it up and I'm really not sure what value it'd have for the 2-3 weeks - especially given the fact that we didn't have a council for 2 years
<sistpoty> well, we could vote right now, couldn't we?
<sistpoty> (just as a side remark)
<siretart> dholbach: ah, so we want to have a lp vote for, lets say 2 weeks?
<dholbach> And overruling people who are not here?
<dholbach> and then have a new council 2 weeks later?
<dholbach> Which decisions do you think will have to be made during that time?
<siretart> new developers?
<dholbach> sistpoty: I passed on the information I have about people who could imagine to be on the Council - the TB and CC have a good overview over our ubuntu-dev and ubuntu-core-dev members themselves and they will do the decision
<sistpoty> siretart: no, new developers would still mean tb
<dholbach> exactly
<siretart> I'm not sure if the TB is too happy with this
<dholbach> the council didn't get the powers delegated yet, so it cannot do that decision
<sistpoty> dholbach: so, there is never gonna be a vote anyways?
* sistpoty confused...
<dholbach> as far as I know, no
<sistpoty> ah, k
<crimsun_> I agree with Daniel on this one; it's the holidays, so most people are unlikely to devote much time. We'll have some people ("regulars"?) around to address new people interested in helping/starting out. It wouldn't be any different to simply wait for TB's approval next month.
<dholbach> Thanks Daniel.
<crimsun_> Imo we've already cleared the qualified MOTU candidates as of last TB.
<bddebian> hmm
<dholbach> What can really help is: as soon as questions or problems creep up: add them to a wiki page, so this can be discussed in the first council meeting.
<dholbach> the more detailed the information, the better
<ajmitch> the most pressing need that the council will fill, is something that any of us can do - directing new people where to go, giving people an idea of what to do
<sistpoty> given the fact, that tb meeting is RSN, and there won't be any more delays (like voting or s.th. *g*), I'm all for not setting up s.th. else in the meantime
<crimsun_> agreed.
<siretart> k
<dholbach> Alright... do you see anything else that belongs to "agenda for MOTU Council"?
<giskard> hi *
<dholbach> hello Riccardo
<sistpoty> dholbach: nope, from my side
<siretart> dholbach: just a sek. how will the council actually be appointed?
<imbrandon> re
<imbrandon> sorry i'm late
<dholbach> Ok, if anything creeps up, either add it to the comments section of the MotuProcessesSpec page or we create a new page for the CouncilAgenda
<ajmitch> siretart: names being submitted by dholbach to the TB
<giskard> sorry if i'm late :(
<siretart> I read by vote, but I miss the details (or if this is out of scope of this meeting, let's move it to -motu)
<dholbach> ajmitch: no
<giskard> hi Daniel.
<dholbach> ajmitch: that's not true
<dholbach> the TB and CC will decide
* sistpoty more confused
<dholbach> I was merely asked to ask a few people I could think of, if they could imagine being on the Council
<ajmitch> and I thought they were deciding from a shortlist you gave them?
<ajmitch> ok..
* ajmitch is just confused
<dholbach> they have a good overview of their own
* siretart is even more confused
<dholbach> I want to avoid the impression that I choose people who are on the council
<sistpoty> hm... so it will take at least a TB + CC meeting?
<dholbach> I don't have the power to do that.
<imbrandon> i thought the TB was only ACK'ing what we decided? thats what we said at UDS
<minghua> so it's purely decided by CC+TB?
<dholbach> imbrandon: that has already happened, it's just the appointment of the council members, we're talking about at the moment
<dholbach> minghua: yes
<siretart> dholbach: the confusion is not that we do (not) want to decide or not who get's in the council. the way it is constituted seems to be quite unclear
<imbrandon> dholbach: ahh then who is the TB acking ?
<cjwatson> just the TB, AFAIK
<dholbach> cjwatson: Ok, sorry. Thanks for the clarification.
<cjwatson> as far as I know, the MOTU Council is a straight delegation from the TB
<minghua> so how is the second term of the council formed?  appointed by CC+TB again?
<cjwatson> that I'm not sure about, and will wander off again ...
<dholbach> imbrandon: the TB will ACK new members of ubuntu-dev, after the MOTU council came to a conclusion abou them.
<cjwatson> I think you should propose something to the TB :-)
<imbrandon> right i mean the members that will make the council
<imbrandon> dholbach: ^
<dholbach> minghua: I suppose so - that has not been clarified yet - I'll add it to the spec
<dholbach> imbrandon: the MC will be formed and appointed by the TB
<imbrandon> dholbach: in UDS we said that you will choose a council to be approved by the TB , afaik
<imbrandon> if thats changed
<imbrandon> thats whats unclear to me
<siretart> dholbach: is it just me or does the fact that the TB has to ACK an applicant as well makes the process more complicated than it currently is?
<dholbach> no, I don't have the power to do that
<dholbach> siretart: no, it will be a simple thing, done by email
<dholbach> I don't think it will take long
<dholbach> it will be more of a formal thing
<siretart> dholbach: aha? so there will be a tb discuss mailing list? or will the discussion be in private?
<dholbach> there's a technical-board mailing list already
<imbrandon> so the TB is just going to pick random MOTU's or is someone nomniating them ?
<imbrandon> ( for the council )
<siretart> dholbach: it is? I fail to spot it on https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/
* imbrandon feels so lost the last weeks since UDS
<dholbach> siretart: it's private
<dholbach> imbrandon: I was asked to ask a few people if they could imagine being on the council, I passed on that information, but they make up their own minds, they know all the people in ubuntu-dev well enough
<imbrandon> ahh ok
<dholbach> I doubt they'll choose "random"ly
<siretart> mh. I'd really appreciated that the discussion of new members was public
<bddebian> Why not, wouldn't that be more fun? :-)
<siretart> s/I'd/I have/
<sistpoty> did my bribery get through to tb? *g*
<dholbach> siretart: it will be a formal quick thing - we can talk about that still
* dholbach adds it to the list
<imbrandon> siretart: it is public afaik the TB is deligating that to the MOTU council, the only thing will be that TB physicly puts them into the LOP team
<siretart> dholbach: but you see that we loose transparency?
<imbrandon> s/LOP/LP
<siretart> imbrandon: not from what I get from this discussion.
<cjwatson> the TB meeting appointing the MOTU council will be public, though
<siretart> imbrandon: to me, it seems that the motu council doesn't decide, but only make suggestions to the tb. the actual approval seems to be to be done in private by the TB
<imbrandon> wrong
<dholbach> siretart: It will be part of the MC reporting to the TB. They have Launchpad powers to add people to ubuntu-dev.
<cjwatson> no, it's done in public by the TB
<cjwatson> siretart: hang on, you mean the approval of new members, or the approval of the MOTU council?
<dholbach> siretart: there's no further evaluation and secret discussion
<siretart> cjwatson: I'm talking about approval of new members of the ubuntu-dev group
* siretart is totally confused now
<cjwatson> siretart: then what dholbach said matches my understanding too. The MOTU council is just teleoperating the TB, basically ...
<sistpoty> well, if the MC will make suggestion, they'll certainly get to know the facts. MC could add the transparancy layer than again
<sistpoty> (or should=
<imbrandon> siretart: past when the MOTU Council approves a new ubuntu-dev the TB will only put them in LP, they dont "approve" them any further
<siretart> imbrandon: aah, so that part gets done in private, right?
<imbrandon> right
<dholbach> the MC will report publically to the TB, the TB will do the Launchpad change
<cjwatson> insofar as there's anything to be public ...
<cjwatson> it's an https connection to launchpad.net; I guess that's private ;-)
<giskard> imbrandon, why MC cannot do this, in fact TB is deligating them to do some of theyr work?
<imbrandon> dholbach: exactly, we are asll on the same page now, we were all just saying it diffrently
<siretart> I'd suggest to make this very very clear. for outsiders, it may look like that the decision who gets developers is done by canonical, which *could* have a hidden agenda for (not) approving members
<dholbach> siretart: TB != Canonical
<cjwatson> the TB has non-Canonical members, in fact
<imbrandon> where does canonical come into play?
<siretart> I don't want that this impression gets a rumor
<dholbach> Ok... any other questions or things we should clarify?
<cjwatson> (well, member)
<giskard> only mjg59 .
<crimsun_> siretart: we'll make that clear as part of the secretarial process in MOTU on the wiki.
<giskard> afaik.
<siretart> dholbach: for outsiders, it doesn't matter. I know many many many debian developers, who don't get the difference
<cjwatson> giskard: yes
<siretart> dholbach: thats why I suggest to make this fact very very clear
<dholbach> siretart: Right, we will make the process VERY clear.
<dholbach> Agreed, let's move on.
<siretart> it is already confusing now!
<siretart> k
<sistpoty> dholbach +1
<sistpoty> btw.: is anybody doing the minutes actually?
<dholbach> Any other questions or suggestions about the duties of a MC member?
<imbrandon> one last question about the MC? when is the TB going to form the MC?
<ajmitch> sistpoty: are you volunteering, or do you want me to?
<dholbach> imbrandon: next TB meeting
<imbrandon> dholbach: okies
<sistpoty> ajmitch: would be very cool, if you could do it
<crimsun_> I believe those four points that Daniel stated are significant (enough) in scope. :)
<dholbach> Alright: next point: Review processes (REVU, bzr, SRU, merges, etc.) (sistpoty)
<sistpoty> hm... well, with what to start?
<sistpoty> I guess I'll go through it in order
<dholbach> Ok
<sistpoty> I'd first like to talk about revu and your idea about bzr to do reviews
<imbrandon> brb
<sistpoty> well, I've already written some stuff about this on the ml, so I'll try a short summary
<dholbach> I hope everybody read https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CodeReviewSLA or the mail I sent to ubuntu-motu@ a while ago
<sistpoty> revu's throughput is suboptimal *cough*
<sistpoty> dholbach came up with the codeReviewSLA spec
<bddebian> You think? :-)
<sistpoty> bddebian: yay, you cleaned up much, I know :)
<dholbach> Yes, what I tried to achieve was: people helping each other before things get reviewed and lets us go through n+1 iterations
<dholbach> my personal experiences with using bzr for packaging in a team were great
<siretart> the jumping point is that it is unclear how we get more reviewers with having the packages in bzr on launchpad?
<sistpoty> which in principle is a good idea
<dholbach> giskard can probably acknowledge
<sistpoty> exactly siretart
<dholbach> the idea doesn't buy us reviewers
<dholbach> it's just that people can check their team mates packaging and do changes on the fly
<sistpoty> and imo using only the bzr-thingy to review stuff makes the job much harder than it's now
<dholbach> you check it out, do changes, commit it
<nixternal> nice
<sistpoty> imo, we should have a clear separation of the two involved processes:
<siretart> which is cool, but a different issue to 'reviewing' packages
<dholbach> sistpoty: I agree that there are unresolved issues, but we're good at solving problems, I'm sure that if we hack up revu-tool or revu-check it will do bits of the job for us
<sistpoty> 1) preparing a package (this includes collaboration)
<sistpoty> 2) the final review of the package
<sistpoty> for 1) bzr and the spec is very well fit
<minghua> and there is still a learning curve (steep or not) to consider, I suppose
<sistpoty> for 2) we'll be much better of with revu imo
<dholbach> minghua: we have to have good documentation - I had artists working with bzr and doing a really good job at it in no time
<dholbach> sistpoty: why?
<giskard> sistpoty, no, ihmo bzr will help us a lot! as seb128 pointed in  codeReviewSLA we need to have a bzr-buildpackage that works out of the box. It will be more easy for use if we have  only to type a "bzr branch $something" and "bzr-buildpackage"
<crimsun_> Honestly, I don't think 2) has anything to do with whether we use REVU or LP's bzr.
<ajmitch> one problem is that we often use REVU as a teaching tool, where we wait for the people submitting packages to make fixes we suggest
<siretart> giskard: there is a bzr plugin for building packages. I tried it on my laptop yesterday, it seems to be quite nice
<sistpoty> dholbach: how could I say with bzr "this version is good" or "you have that and that error in there"
<giskard> and yes, as dholbach said, maintain packages in bzr is great, we did it for telepathy and galago.
<dholbach> sistpoty: you can use the bzr branch whiteboard and/or changes with a good commit entry to do that
<sistpoty> dholbach: if I'd commit changes, it would be a mix up of 1) and 2) again
<dholbach> siretart: that's cool - it'd be nice if you coud explain that in a blog post or on ubuntu-motu@ or something
<siretart> I think dholbach's point is, that we shouldn't focus on telling hopefuls what is wrong in their packages, but rather fixing them, right?
<minghua> dholbach: the problem is, all reviewers need to learn these if they are not already using bzr
<ajmitch> siretart: it depends if we want to spend more time fixing than teaching
<dholbach> siretart: I'm not going to fix package for all MOTU hopefuls, I said that it's an option and I think it's a good one
<siretart> dholbach: I'm planning to try it out with a repackaged xine. will blog about that. not all dependencies are in feisty (yet)
<seb128> bzr is easy to use, not an huge learning curve
<minghua> and I don't know if any hopeful will be intimidated by bzr
* dholbach high-fives siretart
<dholbach> I think we should really try it and fix problems along the way
<siretart> dholbach: still, the abilities of launchpad to comment on particular revisions of a bzr branch are poor
<crimsun_> minghua: there's olive, too.
<dholbach> I know there are issues, but I'm sure we'll tackle them
<bddebian> LaserJock!
<dholbach> siretart: the commit log helps with that
<LaserJock> yeah, yeah, got stuck in a meeting
<seb128> random comment from main uploader, I don't use REVU because I never bothered to register so I would find bzr on launchpad easier and would probably review some package on it
<dholbach> siretart: it preserves history
* dholbach hugs seb128 ecstatically
<sistpoty> hm... I wouldn't personally like to run in s.th. that's producing more work for the reviewers. these are our real bottleneck!
<dholbach> seb128: more desktop crack! :-)
* seb128 hugs dholbach back
<seb128> :)
<siretart> dholbach: and how do you actually comment? using the whiteboard isn't that satisfying to me :(
<dholbach> sistpoty: I agree, we have to bear that in mind
<ajmitch> LaserJock: don't worry, we're still slogging through the agenda :)
<dholbach> siretart: that's why I suggested the bzr commit log
<ajmitch> dholbach: that requires having changes to commit
<LaserJock> can we create a comment page that links to the bzr LP?
<dholbach> ajmitch:   --unchanged           commit even if nothing has changed
<siretart> ajmitch: if you fix the issues pointed in place, you have something to commit
<seb128> if you need something for the lp guys just speak to them with some rational
<ajmitch> dholbach: scary
<dholbach> LaserJock: what do you mean?
<seb128> dholbach: like a wiki page probable
<crimsun_> Could we see gobby fitting into this?
<seb128> probably
<LaserJock> like have a page on tiber that get's updates
<sistpoty> seb128: personalpackagearchive?
<dholbach> seb128: for the issues we identify?
<giskard> dholbach, i guess send the commit messages to a web-page. something like send them via mail.
<siretart> dholbach: interesting idea
<dholbach> LaserJock: updates of changed branches?
<seb128> dholbach: for any comment if the lp witheboard is not enough
<dholbach> seb128: right
<LaserJock> commenting
<dholbach> I filed a couple of bugs on launchpad-bazaar which are added to the spec
<seb128> I think that the whiteboard is enough though
<seb128> note things to fix
<dholbach> we need proper email reporting, no doubt about that
<LaserJock> I just don't see how a bzr repo of the debian/ is going to give us enough info
<seb128> delete them when fixed
<dholbach> LaserJock: we still need to discuss how we're going to solve the tarball / upstream source issue
<dholbach> but please let's not do that here
<dholbach> I'm sure we come up with something creative
<seb128> (put the source package on launchpad)
<dholbach> yeah, something like that
<giskard> why?
<seb128> because it's easier
* LaserJock uploads axiom's tarball :-)
<seb128> until you get a working bzr-buildpackage
<giskard> ah ok
<siretart> dholbach: how about introducing a new X- field in debian/control pointing to the source tarball?
<dholbach> siretart: fine with me
<crimsun_> ok, let's summarise: We're migrating from REVU to LP's bzr for packaging, and we'll use LP's whiteboard for commenting.
<dholbach> revu-tools <LP branch>        could then build the package and run lintian on it
<siretart> in fact, there should be 2 fields, one for the url, and one with a SHA1 sum.
<seb128> well, could be easy to write some tool getting the tarball, bzr getting the debian dir and building the package
<dholbach> who's taking notes? :)
* siretart is taking some notes
* dholbach hugs siretart
<dholbach> great :-)
<siretart> :)
* nixternal hugs dholback
* dholbach hugs nixternal back
<siretart> but I'm still not convinced that we should shut down revu
<LaserJock> we aren't going to do it right away though
<dholbach> no we shouldn't, but we should put some efforts in trying it out and making it run smoothlessly
<LaserJock> I think the bzr way is going to be really hard for new people at this point
<seb128> siretart: do you thing many people review things on it?
<siretart> I'd suggest that we try it out with some packages, and then discuss about the experiences with it
<ajmitch> not until some of the bugs related to bzr & launchpad are fixed
<giskard> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/NoMoreSourcePackages
<ajmitch> siretart: we could always hack revu to put new packages into branches on launchpad
<siretart> seb128: I ask the other way: do you think more ppl will review packages if it is a launchpad branch?
<dholbach> We'll manage! Where's the old MOTU "We have the Power" team spirit?
<seb128> siretart: I would for one
<siretart> interesting
<giskard> http://wiki.debian.org/BzrBuildpackage
<LaserJock> dholbach: drowned in bugs, merges, and revus ;-)
<dholbach> siretart: it's more about the collaboration getting the things and pieces together
<ajmitch> dholbach: sitting on the floor in the corner :)
<giskard> siretart, it's more easy to manage, ihmo.
<crimsun_> one notable example would be say feisty's compiz, which kinda sat on revu
<seb128> siretart: having to send a key annoyed me enough that I never registered on REVU
<siretart> seb128: you are already in the keyring. since the beginning
<seb128> crimsun_: I've uploaded 0.3.4 today using changes from the REVU package
<siretart> seb128: I'm importing the lp group, you know?
<seb128> siretart: I don't know how to log in then
<siretart> that's indeed an issue. right
<dholbach> Shall we move on to Merges and SRUs and 'etc.' :-) ?
<ajmitch> lp group includes all -dev & -core-dev
<ajmitch> dholbach: please
<crimsun_> seb128: right, using that as an example of where LP branches would assist/encourage/speed
<dholbach> sistpoty: your stage
<ajmitch> dholbach: otherwise this'll go as long as a CC meeting :)
<seb128> crimsun_: right :)
<sistpoty> erm... let's move on to merges
<ajmitch> merges - we're lagging
<sistpoty> kinda
<seb128> launchpad has the advantage then everybody is already using it
<ajmitch> is MoM updating yet?
<bddebian> Yes
<ajmitch> oh good
<seb128> and than most of main uploaders and people likely to review package use bzr or have no problem to use it
<crimsun_> [it would be a good thing to bring up the more current one that imbrandon/laserjack hacked up] 
<bddebian> I always fear doing others merges
<ajmitch> 141 outstanding, 38 updated
<crimsun_> [err, nevermind then?] 
<sistpoty> bddebian: good point, that I wanted to talk about
<sistpoty> actually, everyone following now? *g*
<dholbach> + (4 outstanding, 2 updated) from multiverse
<ajmitch> sistpoty: I think so :)
<sistpoty> ok
<bddebian> I starting hitting multivers ones but 90% of them are dholbach's ;-)
<sistpoty> well, the current mom-page seems to enforce some kind of maintainership
<sistpoty> which is a good thing, because we don't do work s.o. else is already doing
<LaserJock> http://tiber.tauware.de/~laserjock/motutodo/universe.html
<ajmitch> sistpoty: yes, I've had at least a couple of packages where I got no notification from others that they had done the work at the same time I had
<sistpoty> but for merges s.th. really bad, because we don't move forward, and ppl. are getting stalled
<bddebian> A bad thing though is 4 or 5 of my merges won't work and I have no way of "telling" anyone not to bother
<LaserJock> http://tiber.tauware.de/~laserjock/motutodo/multiverse.html
<sistpoty> hm... anyone a good idea to make this situation better?
<LaserJock> yeah, use our Dapper system
<dholbach> I think that writing a really short notice  la "I'm working on xyz merge." should solve the issue
<dholbach> just go ahead, write a mail and do it
<LaserJock> I just don't think that's very realisitc
<minghua> this doesn't stop dup work
<LaserJock> for Universe
<dholbach> LaserJock: why?
<sistpoty> imo that won't work, because either you wait for a reply or you might do duplicate work again
<minghua> because the previous merger may already started merging him/herself
<LaserJock> because a lot of it is done by people who won't respond promptly
<dholbach> minghua: I think it's the best solution - we don't all work in the same room :)
<minghua> and he/she has nobody to notify
<superm1> why not just ask the previous merger if they are planning on doing it before you start?
<ajmitch> superm1: blocked waiting on a reply
<LaserJock> people shouldn't have to track down the previous merger
<zorglu_> sistpoty: how frequently such duplication happen ?
<bddebian> Quite a bit
<sistpoty> before we had the dapper tool, I was bitten quite often
<crimsun_> ok, this is going to clash somewhat, but I think we should make merging as non-blocking as possible
<siretart> zorglu_: it did happen. I don't think there are clear numbers
<bddebian> crimsun_: I agree
<crimsun_> I've personally used the /msg approach and just gone ahead
<LaserJock> but I think it's also preventing people from attempting merges in the first place
<ajmitch> crimsun_: that's fine, assuming that the person hasn't done 95% of the package, and is offline for a day or so
* minghua agrees with LaserJock
<bddebian> One problem I see is things like Wine though.  I did a merge of wine from Debian for Edgy, only to find out that we weren't syncing with Debian.
<crimsun_> bddebian: is that fairly common or a corner case?
<minghua> yeah, we should have a "completely-not-syncing-from-debian" list
<dholbach> I suppose it's a very corner case.
<ajmitch> two different needs that we have - to get them all done asap, and to not step on everyone's toes
<bddebian> Hard to say but I've hit it with a few packages
<LaserJock> we really honestly need a per package note area and a way to "lock" tasks
<siretart> crimsun_: I think it is a corner case, but when it's happening, it is quite annoying
<bddebian> All of the multimedia packages come to mind
<siretart> can we perhaps mention the fact in the source package if a package exist in debian, but we take it from some other source?
<sistpoty> well, we could as LaserJock pointed out reuse the dapper-tool. imo it worked quite well, but it was a little bit complicated
<siretart> I'd again suggest to introduce a XS- field in debian/control for that
<crimsun_> I agree with siretart
<LaserJock> for what?
<crimsun_> source that does not originate from Debian
<sistpoty> sounds sane
<siretart> but with a package existing with the same name in debian
<siretart> shall we go by an X- field or by debian/README.Source?
<crimsun_> the former seems more sane
* siretart would prefer an X- field, because then it gets in the Sources index in the archive
<sistpoty> but I guess we're getting a little bit off topic... how to solve the merge problem in a sane way?
<dholbach> probably debian/README.Source doesn't set up dpkg-buildpackage that much? :-)
<siretart> dholbach: thats right. it causes warnings for lintian/linda
<dholbach> shall we move that discussion to the mailing list now that we have a few proposals?
<crimsun_> is there any way we can currently use LP to leave notes per source package?
<siretart> okay
<dholbach> who's going to post?
<sistpoty> dholbach: what discussion? about merges or x-field?
<sistpoty> crimsun_: only via bug afict
<dholbach> sistpoty: x-field, as it seems more 'resolved' than the process question
<sistpoty> dholbach: ah, k... sure
<ajmitch> so, freeze dates?
<siretart> so, the 'best' proposal (AFAI can see) seems to be to do a ping to the previous merger via irc/jabber whatever, and don't wait for confirmation
<siretart> right?
<ajmitch> or will we keep talking about merges?
<sistpoty> still merges ajmitch
<siretart> ajmitch: I think we didn't come to any agreement. Up to now, I only have 'we talked about merges' in my notes :)
<ajmitch> right :)
<sistpoty> siretart: imo that's what we're doing right now, and its suboptimal imo
<sistpoty> but I don't know the optimal solution :)
<siretart> k
<sistpoty> :(
<sistpoty> even
<LaserJock> at the very least we could file bugs
<crimsun_> seems a bit heavyweight
<bddebian> Don't we have enough bugs? :)
* siretart agrees to crimsun_ and bddebian 
<LaserJock> well, LP sucks, what can I say
<LaserJock> :-)
<crimsun_> I think using a wiki page, while inefficient, is lighter weight
<sistpoty> bddebian: but you'd get karma *g*
<bddebian> sistpoty: Hmm, good point ;-)
<ajmitch> crimsun_: running a script to file a bug for a package, saying that we're merging it, isn't too overweight
<LaserJock> crimsun_: and quickly gets outdated
* minghua likes wiki pages better
<dholbach> Ok, let's move that to the mailing list too, there's no point in brooding over the topic together when we have run more than an hour and a half an agenda left
<crimsun_> ajmitch: ok, concur there.
<sistpoty> well, I also don't really want to return to wiki pages...
<LaserJock> virtually every time we've tried using wiki pages for workflow it just hasn't been very effective
<minghua> let's discuss on list then
<sistpoty> agreed
<dholbach> we even have a thread for that already
<crimsun_> ok, next point is deciding universe UVF/FF
<crimsun_> cf. https://wiki.ubuntu.com/FeistyReleaseSchedule
<sistpoty> crimsun_: did you want to say s.th. about SRU? (since you put that back in)?
<crimsun_> sistpoty: that was mainly process and can be given to MC
<dholbach> I asked Tollef who's doing the release management to add it to Beta Freeze, for some reason it's gone from the spec
<dholbach> shall we discuss this on devel-discuss and CC Tollef in the discussion?
<ajmitch> will we have the same freezes as for edgy?
<dholbach> I'm happy to start the mail
<ajmitch> where universe freeze == upstream version freeze for universe, no new packages
<crimsun_> dholbach: that would be great.
<dholbach> I suggested Beta Freeze for UniverseFreeze
<ajmitch> and then a freeze a week or so from release, for all uploads
<siretart> I'd propose to make a preliminary freeze date at the same date as main, and then reconsider the state of our universe
<dholbach> we can all add pros and cons of different dates there
<sistpoty> dholbach: it's already discussed. it's motu's responsibilities to make up dates
<siretart> we cannot say now in what state debian will be short after its release
<siretart> as we cannot predict when debian will release
<dholbach> right
<ajmitch> siretart: debian import freeze is in one week
<ajmitch> so no autosyncs from then
<siretart> ajmitch: why that early?
<ajmitch> etch release
<siretart> now I see it as well
<dholbach> siretart: that's not ==UVF
<ajmitch> no, but it does slow everything down a lot for universe
<ajmitch> since we have to request every change after that
<sistpoty> imo we could stay pretty much aligned to main dates, but have FF (affecting only new packages) later, so that we might be able to bring more in
<siretart> dholbach: with having the largest portion of our packages in sync with debian, this is on the large scale the same, IMO
<dholbach> sistpoty: I'm fine with that
<siretart> ajmitch: right. I remember lucas doing some statistics about critical bugs missed by not doing autosyncs anymore
<ajmitch> siretart: if we get lists of bugs fixed in debian, and not in ubuntu, it'll be easier
<dholbach> everybody saw this: https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel/2006-December/023034.html ?
<LaserJock> we should have a list of RC bugs on Universe packages
<ajmitch> dholbach: yes, if we can have something like that regularly
<dholbach> ajmitch: I think that's the plan
<ajmitch> with package versions
<LaserJock> well, it needs to be usable
<minghua> dholbach: yeah, but IMO that mail is too long to really help
<dholbach> ajmitch: you can ask Keybuk for that
<siretart> dholbach: I saw it, but I fail to see some explanation about that list
<siretart> dholbach: how often will that list be updated? how exactly is this list calculated?
<dholbach> siretart: it lists important fixed debian bugs since the "last time"
<dholbach> siretart: I don't know
<dholbach> it's Keybuk's black magic, you have to ask him
<siretart> who did this at all? ;)
<siretart> hm. he could really have been a bit more specific
<dholbach> ok, let's move back to freeze dates
<dholbach> everybody agreed we have the discussion on devel-discuss?
<crimsun_> yes.
<dholbach> ok cool
<dholbach> next up: Plan the next REVU-day
<ajmitch> next week?
<LaserJock> hmm? shouldn't we discuss it on -motu first?
<dholbach> will we manage to do it before christmas?
<ajmitch> why not?
<dholbach> LaserJock: it's fine to discuss it on -discuss
<crimsun_> how about the same as hug day?
<dholbach> crimsun_: will it clash?
<sistpoty> why discuss the revu-day on -motu? we can do that right here *g*
<dholbach> sistpoty: discuss freeze dates on -discuss
<LaserJock> sistpoty: I meant Freeze dates
<sistpoty> i know *g*
<crimsun_> dholbach: I'm not convinced that "revuing" really detracts from bug triaging
<crimsun_> perhaps it's my particular workflow, which I'm willing to admit
<dholbach> crimsun_: it was a question - I'm fine with the idea
<sistpoty> when is that day?
<LaserJock> has REVU Days really worked?
<crimsun_> dec 20
<LaserJock> *have
* bddebian hasn't done enough of either :-(
<dholbach> LaserJock: they have, and in any case we should pimp them some more
<LaserJock> we should at least collect some statistics from the REVU Day that we can give in some sort of report
<sistpoty> LaserJock: might be a good idea
<dholbach> LaserJock: are you volunteering?
<sistpoty> (I've always reviewed on other days then revu-days)
<LaserJock> not sure
<crimsun_> is dec 20th particularly bad for anyone?
<dholbach> Ok, let's agree on the date first? all sufficiently happy with dec 20?
<crimsun_> (I am.)
<dholbach> I'm happy too
<sistpoty> (well, it's under the week, so I'm home only after 20.00 *g*)
<minghua> well, I am not really happy, but I don't usually REVU anyway
* ajmitch will just try & do reviewing at other times
<ajmitch> as usual
<dholbach> Ok, let's go with 20th then - nobody stops you to review on other days :-)
<dholbach> who writes an announce?
<dholbach> going once
<dholbach> going twice
<crimsun_> we could even use dec 20th as a reporting date for say a 3-day revu sprint akin to BSP
<dholbach> ok, I do it
<dholbach> :)
<dholbach> 3-day-revu-sprint!
<dholbach> woah! :-)
<bddebian> heh
<sistpoty> omg! *g*
<dholbach> if we can pimp it and keep up the REVU atmosphere and make that our christmas present to ubuntu and the motu hopefuls, why not
<dholbach> who of us has a blog on planet who could also write about it?
* sistpoty doesnt
<siretart> sistpoty: I can arrange something ;)
* bddebian either
<dholbach> ok, so that's LaserJock, siretart and me?
<dholbach> oh imbrandon too
<crimsun_> and cbx33
<sistpoty> siretart: well, I can arrange s.th. too. but I'm too lazy do set up a blog *g*
* ajmitch is too boring to blog
<dholbach> ah right
<dholbach> so everybody of us can pick a day and write a bit about it :-)
* bddebian hugs ajmitch
<dholbach> that'd be so cool
<siretart> ajmitch: no way. You are a motu rockstar like everyone else! *g*
<ajmitch> siretart: I prefer the background, thanks
<sistpoty> hehe
<siretart> hehe
<dholbach> Ok, who likes the 3-day-revu-sprint idea?
<sistpoty> +1
<crimsun_> I do. :)
<dholbach> ROCK, let's do that - I write the announce
<ajmitch> ok
<ajmitch> MOTU SCHOOL!!
<dholbach> next up: Check MOTU-school status (sistpoty) (if there's a session planned, please take over this point)
<ajmitch> who wants it? :)
<zorglu_> go flashy, make it an event :)
<sistpoty> well, we could just do a session during the revu-sprint
<ajmitch> it seems like the Ubuntu Open Week went pretty well
<sistpoty> maybe some kind of q-a session?
<siretart> sistpoty: that's a good idea
<dholbach> let's brainstorm some session suggestions
<ajmitch> I'm up for doing some session, but not until mid-january or so
<nixternal> yes MOTU SCHOOL!!
<dholbach>  * packaging libraries
<dholbach>  * updating packages
<sistpoty> I guess I could do some q&a-session during revu days, showing some common mistakes and how to fix them
<dholbach> * regular(!) q-a sessions
<nixternal>  * nixternal proofing packaing
<siretart> * merging packages
<dholbach>  * introduction to bzr
<siretart> * importing packages to the bazaar
<dholbach> hehe
<crimsun_>  * universe SRU (-proposed/updates) and security errata (-security)
<siretart> dholbach: that's different to your point!
<sistpoty> * universe UVF-exceptions
<ajmitch> * dealing with Debian
<sistpoty> dealing with bddebian :P
<dholbach> siretart: right, I just tought it was funny :)
<nixternal> with respect to siretart's * merging packages, would it be possible to do a merge that doesn't require assistance (for the newer) and one that does require assistance due to errors?
<minghua>  * read MoM outputs
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:Ubugtu] : Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 19 Dec 20:00 UTC: Technical Board | 20 Dec 20:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 21 Dec 21:00 UTC: Ubuntu Development Team | 27 Dec 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 28 Dec 08:00 UTC: Ubuntu Development Team | 02 Jan 20:00 UTC: Technical Board
<bddebian> sistpoty: Thanks man :-)
<dholbach> What a nice list we have there
<minghua> uh... does that mean our meeting should end soon? :-P
<sistpoty> well, we should try to find *one* next session soon imo
<dholbach> I'll add them to te MOTU/School/Sessions list and write a follow up mail to MOTU so we can get cracking on it
<siretart> nixternal: sure. do you think you could prepare such a session?
<crimsun_> nixternal: that would be similar to what I went over with Fujitsu
<dholbach> and think about the sessions over the holidays
<nixternal> siretart: not i, i need to learn it, that's why i proposed it :)
<dholbach> sistpoty: the qa session would be easiest to set up
<dholbach> we can definitely make that one happen
<nixternal> i tried one today and got a little confused with the C and C* issues
<sistpoty> hm... as written above, I'd do one during revu-days
<dholbach> sistpoty: nice
<nixternal> crimsun_: cool, i am taking it that the session was logged?
<crimsun_> nixternal: yes, it was the second one iirc
<nixternal> cool..thanks
<sistpoty> dholbach: maybe in the middle of them, or in the first evening... what do you think would be optimal?
<dholbach> i'm travelling the evening on 21st, so if you want me, let's not do it then
<dholbach> european evening that is
<siretart> anything else for the meeting today?
<dholbach> but pick anything else
<sistpoty> dholbach: actually I was thinking of packaging q&a
<dholbach> sistpoty: I know, but weren't we talking about doing it during the revu-days?
<dholbach> it'd be good if I would announce it in the same mail
<dholbach> sistpoty: let's decide that together and move on, ok?
<sistpoty> dholbach: yes...
<dholbach> ok
<dholbach> next meeting's time
<dholbach> what about 3rd week of Jan?
<sistpoty> a little bit earlier?
<dholbach> we should be all back from having holidays by then
<ajmitch> 2nd week?
* ajmitch is back around the 7th
<dholbach> ajmitch: me too, but after that I'll have a lot of stuff to catch up with
<ajmitch> depends when the next TB meeting is, too
<dholbach> but anyway, should be fine
<sistpoty> ajmitch: next TB meeting is next week
<crimsun_> Friday, Jan 12, 2007 20:00 UTC?
<ajmitch> sistpoty: you're sure?
<sistpoty> ajmitch: that says the fridge
<dholbach> crimsun_: I like the date, but not the time
<ajmitch> dholbach: later or earlier?
<dholbach> earlier
<crimsun_> 17:00 UTC?
<ajmitch> 12:00 UTC?
<sistpoty> damn, I'm usually most productive on fridays in uni *g*
<dholbach> both is cool with me
* sistpoty votes for 12:00 UTC
<crimsun_> I'm thinking of .au
<dholbach> it's just that it's 22:36 for me now and it's been a long day :-)
<crimsun_> is that really early for .au?
<ajmitch> 12:00 UTC gives our australian MOTUs a chance
<ajmitch> 1AM for me :)
<sistpoty> yes, would be fair
<minghua> probably the opinions of people who can't attend this meeting is more important?
<ajmitch> but I wouldn't have work the next day
<dholbach> minghua: good point
<crimsun_> ok, I'm game for a tentative 12:00 UTC?
<dholbach> we should alternate between meeting times
<ajmitch> yep
<sistpoty> +1
<dholbach> but that's something we should discuss on the list
<crimsun_> let's propose 12:00 UTC to the list and elicit input
<sistpoty> but please, let's get two dates to vote for now
<sistpoty> or thre
<sistpoty> +e
<sistpoty> otherwise nobody will come up with one
<dholbach> ok, let's take it to the list then
<ajmitch> so we're done?
<dholbach> Anything else on the radar?
* ajmitch lets dholbach wrap it up
<dholbach> Going once
<dholbach> Going Twice
<dholbach> Ok, Meeting adjourned :)
<crimsun_> great. Thanks everyone!
<mc44> will the MOTU council be approved at next weeks TB then?
<ajmitch> thanks
<dholbach> thanks everybody
<ajmitch> mc44: iff there's a TB meeting next week
<sistpoty> yay, thanks
<sistpoty> the fridge mustn't lie *g*
<ajmitch> oh it does
<sistpoty> damn
<sistpoty> and now finally a cigarette :)
<ajmitch> it's up to the TB as to when they convene next
<ajmitch> fridge is often a best-guess
<bddebian> sistpoty: Good idea ;-)
<sistpoty> hehe
<siretart> sistpoty: have fun! :)
<cbx33> I saw my name mentioned ;)
<cbx33> eek bbl
#ubuntu-meeting 2006-12-16
<jetervaz> hello..
<jetervaz> does someone want to talk?
<tonyyarusso> jetervaz: Random chat is usually in #ubuntu-offtopic
<jetervaz> tonyyarusso: i'm sorry, man. i thought it was here. i'm leaving. thanks. :-)
<tonyyarusso> jetervaz: no worries :)
#ubuntu-meeting 2006-12-17
* jenda tests connection...
<tonyyarusso> failed
<poningru> we have a jenda
<elkbuntu> ok, now we need a christina
<jenda> do we have an ajenda, though? :)
<poningru> rofl
<poningru> wait is christina coming?
* elkbuntu points to corey's brain
<poningru> we're talking about armstrong right?
<elkbuntu> yes
<somerville32> What is her nick?
<elkbuntu> trying to remember
<Burgundavia> CJA
<elkbuntu> aha, that
<Burgundavia> no jono either
<poningru> indeed
<elkbuntu> she's online
<somerville32> !seen jono
* somerville32 sighs.
<tonyyarusso> no ubotu
<elkbuntu> :)
<somerville32> :)
<Burgundavia> welcome CJA
<tonyyarusso>  ubotu> I last saw jono (n=jono@ubuntu/member/jono) 1d 5h 5m 4s ago, quiting: "Ex-Chat"
<CJA> Hi All
<CJA> I don't think Jono is joining us
<elkbuntu> i dont think jono's attending
<jenda> Hello CJA
<Burgundavia> CJA is the important one, not jono, at least for this purpose
<Burgundavia> shall we start?
<CJA> Yep.
<elkbuntu> yes
* somerville32 nods.
<Burgundavia> excellent, welcome to the first marketing team meeting in a long time
<CJA> I can only stay for 30 minutes ... I've ducked out of my friends b'day party!
<jenda> :)
<jenda> uh oh, let's be quick, then.
<Burgundavia> we will start by introducing ourselves, and then CJA can say her piece
* Burgundavia is Corey Burger
<CJA> Good to speak to you all. And thanks for inviting me! :O)
* elkbuntu is Melissa Draper
* tonyyarusso is Tony Yarusso
* danbuch929 is Dan Buch
* somerville32 is Cody A.W. Somerville
<CJA> OK.
* beuno is here too
<Burgundavia> beuno: mind introducing yourself?
* jenda is Jenda Vancura
* beuno is Martin Albisetti
<jenda> that was a little monotone ;)
<beuno> I'm a bit new, I'm trying to help out Dan with the webpage
<tonyyarusso> So, what's our agenda?  Things required CJA first I imagine, which are?
<Burgundavia> pretty much
<elkbuntu> yep
<jenda> "and then CJA can say her piece"
* jenda waits ;)
<Burgundavia> CJA: you want to introduce who you are, what you do for canonical and how we can help you?
<CJA> OK
<CJA> I'm the marketing and communications manager @ canonical
<CJA> I have 12 years marketing/pr and communications experience
<poningru> sweet
<CJA> all in telecoms/IT companies
<CJA> my job is to help develop the Canonical/Ubuntu brands
<CJA> to help the canonical employees and the community
<CJA> with messaging, guidance on campaigns
<CJA> advice on talking to journalists
<CJA> make sure we are all promoting the project and company correctly
<CJA> I'm working closely with Jono to see how we can better align Canonical with you, the community
<CJA> after all, as I said in my email, we all have the same goal
<CJA> and that is world domination :O)
<somerville32> :D
<jenda> ah, neat ;)
<jenda> We are the marketing team...
<jenda> we share the common goal ;)
<CJA> so i'm not here to police what you do, or stop you doing things. I'm here to help and advise you.
<tonyyarusso> What about the how can we help you part?  Or are you pretty much waiting on jono?
<Burgundavia> CJA: want to lay out some of the specific projects Canonical working on right now?
<CJA> ok first question .... i'm working with Jono, Melissa and Corey to see how we can better align activities and see how you can help me as much as me helping you
<CJA> really i'll probably call on you guys to drain your knowledge of Linux
<poningru> hehe
<CJA> and how we can get a really strong message out there for Ubuntu
* jenda focuses on Marketing because of his _lack_ of knowledge of Linux
<CJA> you guys talk to the people using it and are closer to them than i will ever be ... so your my eyes and ears so to speak
<CJA> :O)
<poningru> CJA: quick question did you get my email?
* poningru is Eldo Varghese btw
<CJA> Erm .... don't know ... regarding?
<CJA> Ah, yes I think I did
<CJA> And projects Im working on for Canonical......
<poningru> do we have an agenda to which I can add something?
<CJA> I'm currently working on developing some messaging for Canonical, who the company is, how we fit with the community, support services etc... for us as a company to use in all our comms
<elkbuntu> poningru, at this point, PM Burgundavia
<CJA> I'm looking at refreshing both the canonical.com and ubuntu.com websites
<jenda> poningru: you can bring up any topic as long as we are awake, I think.
<CJA> really tightening up the content
<CJA> and getting them looking a lot sharper and cleaner in design
<beuno> CJA, with the focus on canonical rather then on Ubuntu?
<Burgundavia> the ubuntu.com refresh is at the point of deciding which CMS to use, fyi
<CJA> for messaging? Yes. On the Ubuntu side I'm really just tidying up what is there
<CJA> You've all done a great job of messaging it so far
<CJA> ;O)
* beuno is happy to see someone focusing on "tightening up the content"
<somerville32> CJA: What about the sister projects?
<somerville32> ie. Xubuntu, Kubuntu, and Edubuntu
<beuno> the ppl at bazaar que really use the help...
<Burgundavia> somerville32: those are currently more autonomous
<CJA> erm... i'm helping Melissa to get some things in place for a linux event in Jan, working with jono for community attendance at Socal in LA
<CJA> We currently run an adwords campaign for Bazaar
<CJA> we're seeing some really good results from it
<CJA> I'm just working through the stats at the mo and am happy to share them
<CJA> obviously if there are things we can do to help we will. speak to Jono and myself about the things you need
<Burgundavia> CJA: there are a number of people int he community with a good deal of experience with cms'. Shall bring in a few more onto the ubuntu.com refresh?'
<CJA> Burgundavia: We originally had 5 CMS selected which went down to 4 after discussing with Elmo on the security side
<beuno> CJA, I meant in cleaning up the content of their website
<poningru> ooh I would love to help with plone if they are at all looking into that
<somerville32> I have a lot of experience with Drupal
<CJA> We had to drop a couple last week too so are down to Drupal and Joomla
<poningru> ah ok
<CJA> But yes I'm happy if you think someone else should be involved for them to help
<Burgundavia> ok, we can talk about it as a team after you have to run
<Burgundavia> poningru: you wanted to talk quickly about press releases?
<CJA> just bear in mind we need to keep the group fairly small so it doesn't turn in to a mammoth task :O)
<Burgundavia> absolutely
<poningru> yes
<poningru> hold on let me grab the spec link from lp
<CJA> and so you know .. we aim to have the refreshed sites live around mid Feb 2007
<Burgundavia> poningru: can you give us a two line intro as well?
<poningru> k
<poningru> CJA: another question are you working with newz2000 wrt search.ubuntu.com
* beuno does web dev for a living, so I can probably help out where needed
<poningru> I helped a bit with that but he disapeared on me
<CJA> no not yet. but yes would love to talk to you about it.
<Burgundavia> poningru: newz2000 is leading the website refresh
<CJA> catch me online next week to discuss
<CJA> Newz2000 and I are leading the refresh ...so that will be part of it
<CJA> so press releases ....
<poningru> right still trying to find the link :(
<CJA> was that the email about them being overly technical?
<poningru> no
<poningru> ok basically what I am trying to do is have press release be localized by each loco team and spread it within their community/media
<CJA> OK.
<Burgundavia> https://blueprints.launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+spec/loco-press-releases
<poningru> ooh thanks :)
<poningru> I talked to jono about it he gave the thumbs up
<CJA> sounds like a great idea
<CJA> i've put in place a timeline for the next release
* beuno heads the Argentina LoCo team, so we can translate into spanish
<CJA> The Feisty release will be finalised on 12th April
<poningru> also: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MarketingTeam/PressTeam/EPK
<CJA> we can get to you then for translation
<CJA> that's one week before release
<Burgundavia> we can probably use rosetta for this
<poningru> right
<Burgundavia> poningru: can you research and the specifics of doing this up on that spec?
<CJA> obviously we need to be careful that it isn't leaked though
<poningru> sure
<CJA> we will be doing embargoed calls with journalists
<poningru> CJA: cant we just put a 'not to be released till: ' quote on it?
<elkbuntu> that doesnt stop gossip
<CJA> Yes - we put 'embargoed until 19 April' on it
<poningru> right
<Burgundavia> given CJA time is running down, shall we talk about case studies quickly?
<CJA> however that won't stop people sending it to other people and talking
<CJA> so we need to be careful
<Burgundavia> won't stop it ending up on digg
<poningru> true
<CJA> Yep. I'll stay for another 15...
<Burgundavia> want to quickly layout canonical's needs and vision?
<somerville32> Is this going to be the most publicized release yet?
<Burgundavia> somerville32: every release is bigger than the last
<CJA> We will try to get as much 'noise' around it as we can
<CJA> i'd like to try to do some launch parties
<CJA> is something i talked to jono about
<poningru> ooh awesome
<poningru> I am pretty sure I can get the firefox launch party app
<CJA> excellent!
<CJA> So regarding Canonical ... our vision/commitment  is still the same ... to drive/support /promote open source software and the community
<CJA> But obviously we need to make our money from selling the support services of the global support team
<beuno> CjA, digg and slashdot are good places to make a lot of noise with very little, maybe someone can target those sites specifically.  (articles, scoops, etc)
<CJA> to enterprises that need help/advice on large deployments
<CJA> OK. noted.
<CJA> my aim is to position us as the specialists of the open source world
<CJA> and that includes you guys
<CJA> there's a whole load of brain power amongst us
<CJA> and we should be proud of it!
<elkbuntu> :)
<jenda> 
<CJA> so next year we'll be getting more key notes at events
<CJA> Jono already has a few lined up
<poningru> awesome
<CJA> We are at 5 events in the first three months of next year
<elkbuntu> is that including LCA?
<CJA> Open source meets business in Nuremberg in Jan
<CJA> The Linux conf in Aus in Jan
<elkbuntu> :)
* jenda can try doing a bit of noise here on freenode, such as a wallop or two - it's not much, but it can get us the hardcores ;)
<CJA> Socal in LA in Feb
<CJA> Open Solutions summit in NY
<CJA> targeted at Fortune 500 companies
<elkbuntu> rock!
<CJA> and CeBit in Hanover in March
<CJA> Plus .... Free Software World in Spain in March
<CJA> sorry Feb
<jenda> When will the UTS be, BTW?
<elkbuntu> i'd guess May
<CJA> So there's a whole load of activities happening.
<CJA> I think it's scheduled for April/May
<jenda> I'd guess May as well...
<jenda> ah, that's even better :)
<CJA> So someone asked about case studies earlier ...
<jenda> I'll do my best to attend in Nuremberg and the UDS
<CJA> I get all the 'my story' emails to my inbox
<CJA> we get an average of 5 - 15 a day
<CJA> some are just single users who think its great and wanna tell us
<CJA> some are really big news ... like all the developers @ Orange Search using Ubuntu
<elkbuntu> nice
<CJA> A German Airline deploying it on 120 laptops for all their pilots
<poningru> woah
<jenda> wow
<CJA> cambridge University debating society
<CJA> their debate hall was too small so they set up a video link to a new room and use ubuntu
<CJA> there are lots of schools/Unis
<CJA> I'm writing up the ones that will make big news and aim to have the first ones ready for use next week
<tonyyarusso> Wish I knew who they all were ;)
<CJA> these will be available for you to use
<jenda> great
<CJA> I'm going to set up a page on the wiki so you can see them all
<poningru> CJA: is there enough of them for you to use?
<CJA> I'll also place the quotes from single users ... etc.. so you can see them all
<Burgundavia> CJA: a subpage of DIYMarketing would be smashing
<CJA> We'll have 4 next week
<poningru> there are lots of people here would love to send in something like this
<Burgundavia> and eventually jenda et al's new shiny DIY thingy
<sid> What meeting is this?
<CJA> OK. Noted.
<Burgundavia> sid: -marketing
<CJA> A big one I'm trying to get is Palmsource
<jenda> Burgundavia: yes, that would be a very shiny addition.
<sid> thanks Burgundavia
<CJA> all their developers use Ubuntu
* jenda prods Dan Buch
<Burgundavia> CJA: how can the marketing team help the mystory stuff?
<poningru> WOAH
<poningru> palmsource???
<poningru> thats awesome
* danbuch929 prods jenda back :-)
<CJA> any stories you hear of ... anything interesting ... something different
<CJA> let me know!
<CJA> I can help you write it
<CJA> Did you see the news where Yahoo talked about using Ubuntu last week?
<CJA> http://news.com.com/A+look+inside+Googles+open-source+kitchen+-+page+2/2008-7344_3-6143465-2.html?tag=st.num
* elkbuntu didnt :|
<sid> Is that Ubuntu videos idea happening? Like the firefox videos?
<sid> elkbuntu: Those polls ever go public?
<Burgundavia> sid: possibly, stick around to chat about it
<CJA> not something i have heard of...
<elkbuntu> sid, im still working on them. it takes alot of time
* jenda didn't see dat either.
<beuno> CJA, I'm recompiling the ones in Argentina, I'm following 2 or 3 specifically, one o them being a school to teach adults computers, but instead of windows, Linux
<CJA> I'm hoping to do an 'Apple 1984' video for Ubuntu next year ... watch this space
<CJA> OK great. Would be great to see them. I have a Q&A that I use if that helps you?
<CJA> I can send it
<sid> elkbuntu: Can't you just tar -c website/polls_directory|gzip -9 &> polls.tar.gz; then people can get them and GNU Plot the stats themselves.
<CJA> the great quote was:
<CJA> You use Ubuntu on the desktop, is there any reason for that?
<CJA> DiBona: Well, the founder went into space! We just really like it, we
<CJA> think it's really well-executed, and it's really user-friendly. It's
<CJA> also very well managed. It's a very up-to-date distribution. It's very
<CJA> secure. It's very well-written. They started with Debian, and they made
<beuno> yes, that would help a lot
<CJA> it really nice. I think they did a great job of it. Of course, we
<CJA> modified it so it runs on our network and provides the kinds of tools
<CJA> that our software developers use
<tonyyarusso> sid: (Maybe ask in the normal #ubuntu-marketing so as not to disrupt the meeting)
<beuno> argentina@gmail.com
<CJA> once i set up the page for case studies .. i'll place the Q&A and template there too with some good / bad examples to help you guys produce them
<Burgundavia> CJA: we chatted about getting some of the raw data out to the community, along with some case study templates
<beuno> great
<CJA> Yep. Templates and case studies you'll have next week
<Burgundavia> excellent
<CJA> Raw data I'm still looking in to .... can we have a separate conversation about what exactly you need
<Burgundavia> absolute
<Burgundavia> -ly
<CJA> OK. I need to head off pretty soon .... anything else you want to ask me
<CJA> let me know before I go get drunk ;O)
<Burgundavia> anything else? shall we let the lovely lady head out?
<somerville32> :] 
* jenda (BTW) points out to CJA that logs of the rest of the meeting after she leaves will be available thanks to ubuntulog - and if we find a volunteer, there might even be minutes. You won't miss a thing ;)
<Burgundavia> jenda: oh, I will find a volunteer] 
* jenda hides
<CJA> lol.great!
<CJA> Been great speaking to you guys.
<jenda> Burgundavia: sorry, not today ;)
<Burgundavia> CJA: thanks for coming!
<somerville32> Thanks!
<CJA> Feel free to call/email me with questions or if you need any advice
<elkbuntu> thanks CJA :)
<CJA> Have a fab weekend!
<somerville32> Totally!
<Burgundavia> excellent. Next topic
<somerville32> Food.
<poningru_> bye cja
<poningru_> rofl
<poningru_> beer
<Burgundavia> given it already late in morning for jenda, lets move to his projects
<jenda> uh oh
* jenda splashes water in his face
<Burgundavia> want to give us a brief summary of what you are doing, have done and will be working on?
<jenda> ok
<jenda> sure
<jenda> So - I picked up an old idea from the extinct Marketing Team: SpreadUbuntu
* danbuch929 stands in applause
<jenda> and wanted to bring it to life, tried constructing a concept for it, and a purpose, too ;)
<jenda> it was quite a struggle, and was largely unsuccessful :)
<jenda> recently, however, I decided to take a different approach, and that was to cut it up into tiny pieces
<jenda> And leave most of them out altogether :)
<jenda> Anyway, what we end up with, is starting out with a DIY project, with 4 basic goals:
<Burgundavia> heh
<jenda> Burgundavia?
<Burgundavia> just thinking off all the discussions I have had about spreadubuntu
<jenda> I see.
<Burgundavia> but continue
<jenda> Well, let me just sum up what the current work is.
<jenda> The DIY project (personified by a website, currently under Dan's heavy construction) should:
<jenda> 1) Collect DIY marketing material from the community - there is so much of it (good) in so many places (bad).
<jenda> I currently imagine it would all be hosted on teh doc team's server in the form of an ftp syncing with a bzr branch - which the entire MT has access to.
<poningru_> uh... we do?
<jenda> The DIY site would offer links to the files in categories, with thumbnails.
<jenda> poningru_: yes ;)
<jenda> security through obscurity ;)
<jenda> (now gone)
<poningru_> rofl
<Burgundavia> basically, this would be our single place to point people at when they ask "Where can I find some stuff to spread Ubuntu"
<jenda> yes
<Burgundavia> yes?
<jenda> and expanding that thought a tiny bit further...
<poningru_> would they be able to add stuff?
<jenda> 2) List people who are offering ready made material for 'sale', or for free, or for trade... etc.
<jenda> poningru_: yes
<Burgundavia> a "marketplace" of sorts
<jenda> poningru_: I'd imagine adding to a wiki-style queue, and we would screen it for branding, trademarks and subjective opinions/democracy in some later to be specified process.
<jenda> Burgundavia: a little bit.
<poningru_> ooh awesome
<jenda> There are many people doing that now.
<jenda> I didn't really know before :)
<jenda> So I decided to try it out.
<Burgundavia> having a central place is good, because we can vet the people selling stuff, imho
<jenda> Most of you probably know that I made and sold stickers and posters...
<jenda> but why didn't I know that other people were offering?
<poningru_> are we sure we wanna do the swag thing? I really have no objections to it, just that maybe we should run this by canonical first?
<jenda> Because there was no place for them to do so.
<jenda> poningru_: I did.
<poningru_> or have you...
<poningru_> cool
<jenda> a few times ;)
<jenda> Jane and Jono.
<Burgundavia> people making money of Ubuntu has always been part of the plan
<jenda> <spam>For example, juliux is selling some absolutely perfect shirts, t and polo. I'm wearing one right now - they rock </spam>
<Burgundavia> jenda: can you move a tiny bit quicker. We still have lots todo and little time
<jenda> The above is the reason I won't be making shirts myself ;)
<jenda> sure
<jenda> OK, I believe this section is explained
<Burgundavia> given we are already at 1hr and counting
<Burgundavia> does this website involve a process for getting new stuff vetted?
<jenda> It should.
<Burgundavia> sounds good
<jenda> But we haven't yet constructed it.
<Burgundavia> and how can the non-involved help you get this up and running faster?
<jenda> Suggestions welcome, but not now ;)
<jenda> preferably on teh ML
<Burgundavia> ie; what do you need right now?
<jenda> err
<jenda> MarketingTeam/DIYWebsite
<Burgundavia> one of the things I want out of this meeting is a list of things we can new people involved with
<jenda> There is a fairly detailed roadmap there.
<jenda> I'm definitely appreciating workforce.
<jenda> Currently, danbuch929 has been of immensely great help, and beuno is helping out too.
<Burgundavia> hmm, I don't see a "I want to help, what can I do" list
<elkbuntu> i tried, but ran out of time
<jenda> BTW, the website has got a prototype and working copy at diy.devubuntu.com
<jenda> elkbuntu: that's OK ;)
<jenda> I know how that works :/
<jenda> Burgundavia: you aren't looknig.
<jenda> :)
<Burgundavia> the task list?
<jenda> There is a 'tasklist' which I intend to expand.
<Burgundavia> right
* jenda lost the thread ;)
<Burgundavia> that is what I thought, because I don't see "helping us construct a new material queue"
<jenda> hehe
<Burgundavia> :)
<jenda> noted
<jenda> ok, next section
<Burgundavia> sorry if I am a task master, but that is my nature
<jenda> that is appreciated.
<jenda> 3) A section that would encourage people to join the folks in #2
<jenda> With details of some of the projects in #2, depending on what the author will be willing to offer.
<jenda> Since I did my stuff for this section - this is where I'll be trying to convince people that they can actually make a profit, whilst helping the community.
<jenda> Although we'll appreciate it more if the profits are donated or used beneficially someway :)
<jenda> And to that I'll add as a note that I have about $148 left from the posters, and if anyone has a good way to use them, please let me know - chances are that I'll eventually think of something :)
<Burgundavia> maybe we should brainstorm a place for people to give their money to?
<Burgundavia> such as a charity like TTC?
<jenda> can't they donate to Ubuntu directly?
<jenda> dunno
<Burgundavia> the foundation doesn't exist
<Burgundavia> anyway, we can brainstorm post meeting
<jenda> Ubuntu isn't a foundation?
* jenda stares
<Burgundavia> nope
<jenda> anyway.
<somerville32> The Ubuntu Foundation doesn't actually exist?
<jenda> can someone confirm this?
<Burgundavia> nothing more than a name and $10 million dollar cheque
<jenda> I always believed it did.
<jenda> ok
<jenda> Where do donations go?
<jenda> do they hide under that cheque?
<Burgundavia> it may now legally exist, but I have no idea
<jenda> 
<jenda> OK, we'll check that later.
<elkbuntu> http://www.ubuntu.com/donations
<jenda> thx
<elkbuntu> Burgundavia, explain that page?
<jenda> I'd now say #4, but I already said it in #1 ;)
<Burgundavia> elkbuntu: that makes no mention of the foundation
<jenda> Let's research this later.
<elkbuntu> ok, right. im only half reading what's going on
<Burgundavia> yep
<jenda> I'm sure mako will know exactly how that works.
<Burgundavia> jono will as well
<jenda> Anyway
<jenda> yes
<Burgundavia> I am not worried that the money is misused
<Burgundavia> one of the other pieces of SU was the actually spreading stuff
<jenda> The 3-4) steps I outlined are the basic ones I'd like to start with. danbuch929 and I have agreed on a deadline for 15th of January for them.
<Burgundavia> however, I think, with the new website revamp and the forums, I think we can do within Ubuntu
<jenda> They concern actual marketing material - swag.
<jenda> The next step would concern what I clumsily call DIY Marketing Howtos
<jenda> I'd like a database of instructions/suggestions that would give people ideas on what they could do in their school, company, town, country... newspaper, area.
<poningru> sorry my wifi is being weird
<danbuch929> on a technical note, we're currently using Wordpress to implement this feature
<jenda> Sources: what people have actually done already... what people of other projects have done... what people would like to do, but can't for some reason.
<danbuch929> it should be woven in within a week
<jenda> ah, good news ;)
<Burgundavia> for the "stories of spreading ubuntu">/
<Burgundavia> ?
<danbuch929> Burgundavia: yes, and the Howto's
<Burgundavia> right
<Burgundavia> can we talk about that?
<jenda> Well, to this I think we could link the stories once CJA makes them available to is.
<jenda> us
<Burgundavia> there is a place for Howtos: the ubuntu wiki
<jenda> I believe it'll stitch together quite nicely
<danbuch929> Burgundavia: plus all the ones I see on the Forum :-P
<Burgundavia> right
<jenda> Burgundavia: yes, but it doesn't work for them just as it doesn't for DIYMaterial.
<Burgundavia> but the wiki is a nice place, because it removes the hit by bus effect, plus means people don't have to get yet another account to edit them
<jenda> Yes
<jenda> true
<Burgundavia> we don't need more places for split resources
<jenda> We could just organise them on the site, but link to them on the wiki
<jenda> agreed
<Burgundavia> something you mentioned yourself
<danbuch929> jenda, Burgundavia:  we mentioned having a wiki-like submission construct
<jenda> but there are no resources of the type yet
<jenda> danbuch929: if so, I'd prefer using the ubuntu wiki
<Burgundavia> howtos != actual material
<danbuch929> we can use THE wiki for submission/discusion
<danbuch929> yes
<Burgundavia> howtos are "do X, then Y"
<jenda> content control would be done through linking/not linking to.
<Burgundavia> the actual material needs to be on the diy site, just the howtos on the wiki
<jenda> Burgundavia: yes...?
<jenda> ok
<danbuch929> Burgundavia: I whole-heartedly agree
<Burgundavia> I love the current DIY site layout
<jenda> That I consider a technical detail.
<Burgundavia> yes, but a big one
<jenda> Burgundavia: thanks to MenZa, danbuch929 and beuno for that.
<jenda> Burgundavia: yes, but one that we can solve at any time.
<jenda> I agree that the HOWTOs should be on the wiki.
<Burgundavia> better to get it right first off
<danbuch929> on another technical note, the DIY site style is not yet optimized for speed - images are still a bit bulky
<danbuch929> ...so please don't judge :-D
<jenda> In any case, I'd imagine each howto to tell the reader 1) what they need to do the plan (CDs, a booth, a school, etc) 2) how much time to prepare/perform/maintain 3) estimated budget
<Burgundavia> seems reasonable
<jenda> all suggestions appreciated - preferably ML, as usual.
<danbuch929> jenda: so might we provide a template for Howto submissions on the wiki?
<Burgundavia> so I see the following sections linking to the wiki: make, design and spread
<jenda> While the DIY material part is all schemed and almost ready.
<elkbuntu> +1
<jenda> danbuch929: +1
<Burgundavia> not directly, but linking to various wiki pages
<jenda> (While the DIY material part is all schemed and almost ready...), the HOWTO section is still just an idea I'd like done.
<jenda> Burgundavia: +1
<Burgundavia> sounds good
<Burgundavia> the work you guys have already done is amazing
<danbuch929> Burgundavia: great to hear :-)
<Burgundavia> I have been wanted a web-based repo for content for a long while
<jenda> And, as you suggested before, the case studies from mystory will make a great complement to this section.
<jenda> (to the Howtos)
<jenda> Or as a seperate section.
<Burgundavia> sounds good
<jenda> In order to show what can be achieved, etc.
<Burgundavia> shall we rap up and move on? anything more to discuss?
<jenda> And in this manner, I'd like to create more and more sections that would help the average fan to get out there and... well... spread ubuntu ;)
<Burgundavia> wrap up, rather
* jenda raps it up a bit, yo
<Burgundavia> heh
<jenda> ;)
<elkbuntu> i think wrapping up is good
<jenda> Anyone have any questions? :)
* danbuch929 goes downstairs to wrap presents after wrapping up
<somerville32> Is Jenda still talking?
<somerville32> haha ;] 
* jenda hopes he didn't forget anything.
<elkbuntu> lol
<jenda> somerville32: just for you, I'll shut up.
<jenda> 
<Burgundavia> so lets get a todo list for finishing the website and going live
<jenda> right
<Burgundavia> jenda or danbuch929: mind doing that?
<Burgundavia> then we need a list of howtos to be written
<danbuch929> jenda: shall we discuss and get this out by Monday?
<Burgundavia> lets start a mailing list discussion on that
<jenda> one more thing - once the website is done, it'll probably be on diy.ubuntu.com
<jenda> or similar.
<Burgundavia> absolutely
<jenda> danbuch929: yes
<jenda> Burgundavia: atoponce has expressed interest in helping with that.
<Burgundavia> jenda: with which?
<jenda> list of howtos
<Burgundavia> cool
<jenda> I believe that will be a very enjoyable job for people with imagination.
<jenda> 
<Burgundavia> can I leave that in your hands?
<danbuch929> real quick before we disband:
<jenda> Very well suited for non-techies, too :)
<jenda> Burgundavia: probably ;)
<Burgundavia> ok
<danbuch929> can I just erase almost everything on DIYMarketing?  :-D
<danbuch929> the wiki page
<jenda> danbuch929: erm... ;)
<danbuch929> as it's all soooo up-to-date ;-)
<Burgundavia> danbuch929: only once the content is safely in a bzr repo
<jenda> danbuch929: probably not a good idea till we have a replacement.
* danbuch929 puts away eraser
<Burgundavia> it is easier to update that than create new stuff
<jenda> BTW, that's another easy job - diy hunting.
<jenda> just collecting all the bits and pieces and bzr'ing them.
<jenda> ok
* jenda 's last note (hopefully):
<jenda> I will have exams for pretty much the next two months, and although I'm a very lazy student, I'll do my best not to spend my time on IRC doing SU.
<Burgundavia> understandable
<jenda> I'll still be around most of the time - just please excuse me if things take me a longer time, or if I try to throw them on someone else.
<jenda> On February 10, I'm going on a wild budget trip to India for three weeks.
<Burgundavia> all the more reason to get those todos done asap :)
<jenda> And if that doesn't end my life at 20 (exactly ;)), I'll be back after that, ready to work again.
<Burgundavia> shall we move on to the next project: the UWN?
* jenda done
* jenda voice is gone...
<jenda> (or was it fingers)
<Burgundavia> :)
<elkbuntu> g'nite jenda
<jenda> whoa...
<jenda> you ain't getting rid of me that easy!
<jenda> :)
<elkbuntu> lol
<Burgundavia> ok, the UWN
<danbuch929> rofl
<elkbuntu> yes Burgundavia ?
<Burgundavia> I assume everybody knows what it is, but here is a recap: The Ubuntu Weekly News (UWN) is a weekly snapshot all the happenings in the Ubuntu community and world.
<Burgundavia> it is not really weekly, mostly due to my lack of time
* jenda notes it has had very good feedback recently ;)
<Burgundavia> yes, yes it has
<Burgundavia> somerville32 has recently joined and made a major impression
<elkbuntu> and some bad feedback as well, i might add
<Burgundavia> elkbuntu: bad feedback?
<elkbuntu> Burgundavia, lococontacts list
<jenda> May i jump in with a single line OT note, please?
<elkbuntu> towsonu2003 or whatever editted the kurdish article without checking facts, we didnt notice, and it got sent out with bad information
<jenda> The ubuntu-marketing mailing list is getting a lot of spam lately, and it's just poningru and I who moderate it - any volunteers welcome, please email me.
<Burgundavia> ah right
<somerville32> I'll volunteer.
<elkbuntu> towsonu2003 then editted the wiki page to change the story
<jenda> somerville32: see the word _email_ :)
<Burgundavia> we should write something in 25 about that
<elkbuntu> Burgundavia, most definately
<elkbuntu> and talk to the culprit
<Burgundavia> I will talk with towsonu
<elkbuntu> it was even after crimsun's edits, so after even our final checks
<somerville32> If you didn't know, he is t u on ml
<somerville32> elkbuntu: Really? Oh wow
<Burgundavia> lets chat about that specific issue post meeting
<Burgundavia> I wanted to get everybodies feedback on how the system as a whole is working
<poningru> hmm
<somerville32> We need to encourage people to submit stuff
<somerville32> And we need to improve the way we process the changes in feisty
<elkbuntu> no, content is not the issue
<Burgundavia> I would agree
<Burgundavia> people is our issue
<Burgundavia> as content will follow people
<tonyyarusso> UWN - wise?  Generally I think it's pretty good.  One suggestion I have is signing our sections in comments, so if say, someone looks at an article and has something to clarify about it, they know who to contact, even beyond the "beats" of the regulars giving a hint.
<poningru> wait what exactly is the problem we are trying to solve?
<elkbuntu> poningru, the tardiness of the editions
<poningru> oh...
<Burgundavia> tardiness of the issues mostly revolves around me being a roadblock currently
<poningru> well...
<Burgundavia> which revolves around the fact that the Feisty changes section currently relies on me
<Burgundavia> here is a thought;
<Burgundavia> lets open a gmail account called "UWNqueue"
<Burgundavia> subscribe it to teh various mailing lists and then have the password known to a select few
<tonyyarusso> Interesting idea
<somerville32> Hmm...
<tonyyarusso> But how is it different from all of us being subscribed?
<somerville32> and we could sort it using tags and stuff
<elkbuntu> i think that still involves too much noise
<Burgundavia> the primary thing that needs to be taken out of my hands is the sorting of the feisty-changes list
<poningru> I like the email idea
<Burgundavia> we could use gmane for it?
<somerville32> gmane?
<poningru> its the email archive thing
<Burgundavia> http://gmane.org/
<poningru> its got a web front end
<Burgundavia> basically, I need to create a criteria list for how I select things that look interesting
<somerville32> What about strong collaboration with Developers?
<somerville32> *stronger
<poningru> Burgundavia: right
<Burgundavia> the don't really have the time
<somerville32> Alrighty
<Burgundavia> s/the/they/
<somerville32> We could use some script magic to help get things moving
<jenda> Burgundavia: one question just occured to me. Every week these weeks, there is a quiz in #ubuntu-trivia. Every quiz has a winner, and every winner gets a prize (so far, either a poster or an RMS book (Free as in Freedom, I think)). Do you think we could have a threeliner in the UWN which would say who gave/won/sponsored the quiz and inviting for the next?
<Burgundavia> jenda: absolutely
<Burgundavia> dump it on the uwn
<Burgundavia> somerville32: difficult todo, given it is very subjective
<Burgundavia> the criteria, that is
<somerville32> It could help sort and prioritize
<Burgundavia> it could
<Burgundavia> basically it could do the inital sort, because I only look at new upstream versions
* somerville32 nods.
<Burgundavia> basically it would need to parse all the emails from feisty-changes and then pull out anything with a -1 in it
<Burgundavia> after that, it becomes very subjective
<somerville32> There are some rules that I can think of though - such as grouping gnome packages
<Burgundavia> yep
<Burgundavia> somerville32: you think you can do that?
<somerville32> Yup.
<Burgundavia> shall we chat after about a set of rules?
<Burgundavia> sounds good
* somerville32 nods.
<poningru> ok so another thing re: UWN
<poningru> couple of things I think we can do: we seem to be working well while in a group, so lets have work sessions like twice a week once in the middle and once when we are going to release
<Burgundavia> fixed work sessions? I like the idea
<poningru> right
<elkbuntu> easier to work around, yeah
<Burgundavia> currently they are mostly in the NA evening, due to my schedule
<somerville32> How about Wednesday and Saturday?
<Burgundavia> that works
<poningru> right
<poningru> thats what I was thinking
<somerville32> :D
<Burgundavia> saturday could be NA evening and wednesday should be Europe evening
<poningru> ooh good thinking
<Burgundavia> that would make wednesday UTC 19 or 20 and saturday UTC 04 or 05
<Burgundavia> do we have somebody who can lead the wednesday sessions?
<elkbuntu> both of which work for me
<elkbuntu> i think...
<elkbuntu> maybe...
<elkbuntu> yep, i can be at both sessions
<Burgundavia> basically you just need to be ther, because with fixed times, I imagine we will have more people showing up randomly
<Burgundavia> one hour or two?
<elkbuntu> two
<Burgundavia> sounds good
<elkbuntu> because few are going to show up right on the hour
<poningru> well lets make it where we have start time
<poningru> and then whenever we finish
<elkbuntu> for this however, gobby is required... do we have a redundancy optioin after eldo disappears?
<poningru> atleast for saturday one
<Burgundavia> elkbuntu: you can lead the wednesday one, from UTC 19 to 21/
<Burgundavia> ?
<tonyyarusso> elkbuntu: eldo?
<poningru> disapears???
<poningru> tonyyarusso: /me
<elkbuntu> poningru, after the 20th?
<poningru> oh right
<tonyyarusso> poningru: ah
<elkbuntu> Burgundavia, i can try
<Burgundavia> try is good
<tonyyarusso> I can run a gobby server as well if necessary.
<elkbuntu> Burgundavia, dinner falls in there, but that's only half an hour or so
<elkbuntu> tonyyarusso, might be worthwhile
<poningru> you know I think I can probably put up another one here
<Burgundavia> and any one of us can lead the saturday, UTC 04 to 06
<elkbuntu> poningru, can we delegate to tonyyarusso instead, since if something goes wrong with yours...
<poningru> sounds good
<Burgundavia> by lead, I basically mean facilitate, answer questions, etc.
<elkbuntu> yep
<elkbuntu> anyway, we're approaching this meeting's 2hr mark
<Burgundavia> any further UWN things?
<tonyyarusso> FYI, it will be on a non-standard port, since I already have one running for something else, with a user that wouldn't understand.
<poningru> tonyyarusso: let me know if you run into trouble
<Burgundavia> I want to discuss one further thing
<tonyyarusso> poningru: Sure.  (And get on writing that patch for directly affecting files..)
<poningru> hehe yeah
<elkbuntu> Burgundavia, be quick?
<Burgundavia> yep
<Burgundavia> the LookingForwardAtFeisty doc
<Burgundavia> I really want to finish it, but I realize I simply don;t have time
<Burgundavia> can somebody else step up and lead that?
<poningru> hmm k
<elkbuntu> is an 'i'll try' ok for here?
<poningru> on gobby right?
<Burgundavia> elkbuntu: sure
<elkbuntu> i'll try
<Burgundavia> sounds good
<Burgundavia> elkbuntu: lets talk briefly tomorrow about my vision and merge that into yours and then we can run
<elkbuntu> yep
<Burgundavia> and one further thing: the Herd 2 doc
<Burgundavia> that is also coming up soonish
<elkbuntu> indeed
<poningru> ooh
<Burgundavia> we need more people :)
<Burgundavia> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/FeistyReleaseSchedule
<Burgundavia> herd 2 is January 11, so we have a bit
<elkbuntu> yeah
<Burgundavia> ok, closing thoughts?
<poningru> hmm ok
<tonyyarusso> Don't slam the!...*sigh*..door
<Burgundavia> I need a volunteer for writing up the minutes
* poningru runs
<Burgundavia> mostly focused on what we agreed on
* elkbuntu will
<Burgundavia> sounds good
<poningru> w00t
* poningru hugs elkbuntu 
<Burgundavia> I have to jet, need to be somewhere in an hour
<Burgundavia> thanks for a great meeting everybody
<elkbuntu> Burgundavia, cya dude
<poningru> bye guys
<Burgundavia> we got a lot covered
<elkbuntu> ok, i think that means we're done...
* elkbuntu goes to have breakfast at 1pm
<jenda> Anything else to address?
<jenda> No trial, corporal/capital punishments... sanctions... nothing painful?
<jenda> meh... boring meeting.
* tonyyarusso burns jenda at the stake
<jenda> much better, thanks ;)
<poningru> jenda: whatever dude that was an awesome
<jenda> poningru: an awesome...?
<poningru> meeting
<jenda> ah
<jenda> ;)
* jenda falls asleep suddenly.
#ubuntu-meeting 2007-12-10
<kraut> moin
* ubotu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 12 Dec 23:00 UTC: Kubuntu Developers | 13 Dec 14:00 UTC: Desktop Team Development | 18 Dec 15:00 UTC: Server Team meeting | 20 Dec 14:00 UTC: Desktop Team Development
#ubuntu-meeting 2007-12-11
<michalski> is this working? im not sure somebody say something....
<zul> yes it is
<michalski> ok thanks
<zul> @schedule montreal
<ubotu> Schedule for America/Montreal: 12 Dec 18:00: Kubuntu Developers | 13 Dec 09:00: Desktop Team Development | 18 Dec 10:00: Server Team meeting | 20 Dec 09:00: Desktop Team Development
<michalski> @schedule halifax
<ubotu> Schedule for America/Halifax: 12 Dec 19:00: Kubuntu Developers | 13 Dec 10:00: Desktop Team Development | 18 Dec 11:00: Server Team meeting | 20 Dec 10:00: Desktop Team Development
<nealmcb> server team meeting here in 15 minutes....
<michalski> can i sit in?
<michalski> im not part of it
<sommer> michalski: open to all
<michalski> ok thanks
<nealmcb> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/Meeting
<dendrobates> Hey everyone
<dendrobates> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 16:00. The chair is dendrobates.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<sommer> hello
<nealmcb> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/Meeting
<soren> Hi, guys.
<zul> hi
<duluu> hi
<dendrobates> [TOPIC] Review ACTION points from previous meeting.
<MootBot> New Topic:  Review ACTION points from previous meeting.
<dendrobates> action 1: mathiaz will update the Developer section of the Roadmap with the specs for hardy
<dendrobates> mathiaz is on holiday.
<dendrobates> I haven't checked to see if this was done.   Does anyone know offhand?
<soren> Sorry, no.
<dendrobates> I just checked as well.
<dendrobates> action 2: nijaba will check the minimun requirement for an installation of ubuntu-server
<sommer> that was done and the installation and introduction sections of the serverguide are updated.
<soren> Cool. What was the result?
<dendrobates> cool
<sommer> 128M memory and a 1G hd space... on x86, amd64, and Sparc
 * nijaba is late... sorry
<dendrobates> action 3:    sommer will add an item about writing a wiki page to install a minimal GUI on the server
<sommer> there's an item on the road map, but I don't think the actual article has been started yet.
<dendrobates> do you really need 1GB of HD space?
<sommer> dendrobates: I wouldn't install with less... need space for log files and such
<dendrobates> ok.
<nijaba> dendrobates: it all depends on what you want to do...
<sommer> I guess technically ~600M would work
<sommer> but you probably won't be happy for long
<nealmcb> syslog remotely....
<soren> I would have guessed half of that.
<dendrobates> I supose it doesn't hurt to go 1GB.
<soren> Minimal requirements are not about being happy. They're about minimal requirements.
<nealmcb> unless we're trying to attract the largest segment - smaller and smaller servers
<nealmcb> ala jeos (which is different, but some similar motivations)
<dendrobates> soren: it depends how it is presented.  I have seen recommended miniumum system requirements.
<soren> If the installation requires 300MB to actually be installable, those are the minimal requirements. If people want to have space for data, they should add that to the 300 MB.
<nealmcb> there are so many different kinds of servers
<dendrobates> What are we trying to accomplish with this information?
<nijaba> dendrobates: Give a reasonable sense, to newcomer, of what a server install might require
<soren> dendrobates: I think that's silly. We're trying to establish minimal requirements, not "minimal requirements leaving space for 600 MB of data".
<nijaba> not tell people how little space we can tweak it to fit in with
<nealmcb> so we could talk about firewall servers, web servers, mail servers etc
<nijaba> nealmcb: agreed
<nealmcb> I suggest linking to the existing text and letting people propose updates
<soren> The only number that objectively makes sense is the size of a standard install. We have no way of knowing how much data a user will want to have on his server.
<zul> cant we have minimum and suggested size?
<doluu> soren: agreed
<dendrobates> However if var fills up on the second reboot, that is not a usable system.
<soren> Will everyone be happy if we don't say "The minimal requiremenst are X MB", but instead "A default installation of UBuntu Server only takes up X MB"?
<nijaba> soren: does it really matter whether we say 600M or 1G?  Even flash rives are bigger than this nowdays!
<doluu> maybe we should include info on that
<soren> That's as unambiguous as it gets.
<doluu> or recommendations
<nijaba> soren: ok for your rewording
<jdstrand> soren: +1 on soren phrasing
<sommer> works for me, currenlty the specs are listed in a table
<sommer> I guess change "Hard Drive Space" to "Hard Drive Space Used"?
<soren> If that's what the data actually is, then yes.
<soren> If it's recommended sizes, I call bogus on them.
<doluu> nowdays every administrator nows that they must have something bigger than recommended
<mralphabet> perhaps with a "*This does not include any extra packages, logs, or data that accumulate"
<soren> If the install takes 500 MB and we say "1GB is required", we're somehow implying that a usual amount of data to have on a system is 500 MB. That's nonsense.
<michalski> what if we made several tables saying how much we recommend and how much you need on the different types of installs
<michalski> ftp, http ect
<nijaba> I'll do a base install of x86 version with all tasks and will send the space used to sommer, is that ok?
<doluu> maybe minimal requirement is 300MB, and recommended one is 1g is better?
<nealmcb> . o O (how many angels fit on the head of a pin)
<sommer> nijaba: works for me.
<sommer> here's a link to where the current specs are: https://help.ubuntu.com/7.10/server/C/preparing-to-install.html
<nijaba> What about ram..  I suggested increasing the minimum to 256M...
<soren> nijaba: Why?
<dendrobates> nijaba: I disagree.
<sommer> nijaba: ya, I listed that incorrectly... the updated docs have 256M
<nealmcb> another hassle is the installer pulling in updates - https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ubiquity/+bug/112516
<ubotu> Launchpad bug 112516 in ubiquity "ubuquity using over 2 GB during apt upgrade due to unused packages" [Undecided,New]
<nealmcb> so it is unpredictable
<sommer> nealmcb: does that apply to a new install?
<dendrobates> I think that it is important that we can run in 128
<nijaba> soren: because I don't want people to think that anyone would have something that would swap all the time...
<nealmcb> sommer: yes
<sommer> gotcha
<michalski> we need to be realistic though, the oldest computers that work today have about 2gbs of space can we put that as a minimum just to be safe
<doluu> here is excerpt from Windows XP requirements "128 megabytes (MB) of RAM or higher recommended (64 MB minimum supported; may limit performance and some features)"
<soren> We are talking about *minimal* _*requirements*_. If I want it to be better, *I* add extra RAM. If it says that the minimal is 256, I'll be sure to add 512 instead.
<nijaba> michalski: fully agree with you...  I don't see what we are targeting with 128M
<michalski> doluu: very good idea too
<dendrobates> with virtualisation, admins are slicing systems to the bare minimum at times for single purpose vms
<soren> What is the point of making the written requirements higher than the *actual* requirements?
<nijaba> soren: safety
<soren> From what?
<jdstrand> fwiw I think 128M is an important target too
<michalski> soren: you dont want your server going down because you dont have room to put an update
<nealmcb> +1 on 128
<soren> michalski: No. So?
<dendrobates> what about the tasksel options.  did these numbers take into account selecting them all?
<mralphabet> dendrobates: no
<nijaba> soren: from people telling us that their servers are so slow...
<michalski> soren: be generous to your system and add a couple of mbs
<nealmcb> I think we need to clarify that different servers have wildly different requirements, so people know they can do cool things on small platforms, and need more for users who, uh, accumulate mail :-)
<soren> michalski: Bloating the minimal requirements will not magically add RAM to your system.
<soren> I think exaggerating the minimal requirements is an insult to our users.
<dendrobates> however, I think we need to consider the tasksel tasks, or at least specify that we do not in the doc.
<nealmcb> right
<soren> dendrobates: Agreed.
<mralphabet> Soren's point here is that it may not be the server team's job to tell you what it should be at, the admin can put whatever they want in the machine, it *is* the server teams job to tell you what at a minimum the system will work at.
<jdstrand> it all comes down to the applications.  if you want a full on LAMP server or mail server for tens of thousands of users, then 128M and 300M hard drive won't cut it
<michalski> dendrobates: agreed
<soren> dendrobates: The numbers we put there should specify what they are actually representing.
<doluu> guys what do you think about this page http://www.centos.org/docs/5/html/5.1/Installation_Guide/ch-ent-table.html?
<jdstrand> but that doesn't mean you can't install ubuntu server onto that system
<mralphabet> soren: sorry if I misrepresented your point
 * nealmcb wonders about a tasksel for "router with IDS" that would be really tight
<soren> mralphabet: No, that sums it fairly well :)
<mralphabet> soren: good, I agree with that point . .. it is MY job as an admin to determine what is acceptable minimum performance for my installation.
<michalski> but we need to add recommendations too, for newbies
<soren> michalski: That's fine.
<mralphabet> as somebody mentioned above, when dealing with single function servers, the minimum is what I can plan for
<soren> ...but they should be marked as such.
<soren> Requirements != recommendations
<michalski> soren:agreed
<doluu> soren: agreed
<dendrobates> I think if we included a minimum, and also a realistic reccomendation for a lamp server that would be useful.
<mralphabet> I agree
<soren> Sounds reasonable
<nijaba> +1
<jdstrand> +1
<sommer> so do we document the minimum as with tasksel options or without?
<nijaba> so minimum ram: 128M
<dendrobates> without I think.
<jdstrand> (as long as the minimum is 128M ;)
<mralphabet> I would say without
<doluu> I would say without
<nijaba> minimum disk: will send for all tasks and without any, ok ?
<sommer> nijaba: works for me
<michalski> nijaba: great
<dendrobates> I think lamp stack is good enough, we don't need to cover all cases.
<nijaba> I will just cover min and max
<dendrobates> As long as we are upfront and honest about the numbers, we should be fine.
<nijaba> I think df is honest, AFAIK ;)
<doluu> so we will have minimum numbers, and recommended numbers, right?
<nealmcb> nijaba: well, remember stuff gets deleted as my bug points out - so it does need some padding
<nealmcb> i.e. there is a higher "high water mark" on the df during the install
<nijaba> nealmcb: you were pointing to ubiquity, not d-i...
<nealmcb> good point
<sommer> doluu: I think we'll have min numbers and tasksel numbers
<doluu> no problem
<nealmcb> does d-i not get updates during install?
<dendrobates> [ACTION] nijaba will revise the minimum requirements to include tasksel tasks
<nijaba> nealmcb: could do with autogrow partition in wmware
<MootBot> ACTION received:  nijaba will revise the minimum requirements to include tasksel tasks
<nealmcb> cool!
<doluu> maybe it would be nice to have table with names of tasks and required minimum numbers?
<michalski> doluu: yes
<doluu> and we could add it to minimum reqs, have approximate min req for a installation
<doluu> great
<dendrobates> we are halfway done.  Do we want to keep on this topic?
<sommer> I don't necessarily disagree with that, but I think if you through a bunch of numbers at people it may be confusing
<dendrobates> If we have more to discuss fine, if not, we need to move on.
<sommer> I think we can move on.
<nealmcb> move on
<soren> Yes, please.
<michalski> yes
<michalski> move on
<doluu> move on
<doluu> :)
<michalski> dont put too many numbers but dont let them have a big surprise later on
<dendrobates> Since the roadmap needs to be updated, we won't spen time going over it here.
<nealmcb> factoids are in good shape now - I'll update that section
<dendrobates> [TOPIC] The Debian import freeze is Thursday.
<MootBot> New Topic:  The Debian import freeze is Thursday.
<michalski> if i have a suggestion for the server edition how do i put it on the agenda?
<dendrobates> soren: are there any merges that we need to make sure are done.
<soren> dendrobates: I think the last one we reaslistically have to worry about is multipath-tools, which I'm already all over.
<sommer> michalski: you can update the agenda: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/Meeting
<dendrobates> michalski: add it to the wiki https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/Meeting
<michalski> ok thanks
<dendrobates> soren: good.
<dendrobates> [TOPIC] ruby-on-rails (What is the status of this?
<MootBot> New Topic:  ruby-on-rails (What is the status of this?
<dendrobates> Is anyone working on this here?
<sommer> I volenteered to help, but I'm not sure what the status is.
<sommer> I know Rails released 2.0 last week.
<sommer> :)
<soren> I forget who was working on it.. mathiaz and ivoks, possibly.
<dendrobates> I'll look back and contact the people working on it.
<dendrobates> [TOPIC] Agree on next meeting date and time.
<MootBot> New Topic:  Agree on next meeting date and time.
<dendrobates> Next Tuesday at the same time ok?
<mralphabet> same bat time, same bat channel?
<doluu> it's no related to anything we were talking here
<michalski> did i add that right? https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/Meeting#preview
<sommer> same time and place works for me... just fyi
<nealmcb> michalski: " Suggest install option for GUI(Gnome,KDE,ect) on server edition."
<doluu> today Kir from OpenVZ said in email that the team is working hard OpenVZ available in next LTS
<soren> michalski: If is't about adding gnome and kde tasks, then yes.
<michalski> i'll try to make it next week but im in school so i might not be able to
<michalski> nealmcb: yes
<doluu> it will be based on 2.6.24
<nealmcb> michalski: our approach is to do guis via the web, not x11 - see ebox etc
<soren> michalski: What's the use case?
<dendrobates> doluu: yes, I will probaly not be in main, but I hope it will be available in some way.
<michalski> soren: newbie wants server but doesnt want to use command line utilities
<michalski> even if we added something realy basic for a gui it'd still be good
<dendrobates> doluu: yes
<soren> michalski: Then he doesn't want server.
<soren> michalski: Simple.
<mralphabet> michalski: install desktop edition, then install apache or whatever on top of it
<nealmcb> well, there are kernel issues also
<dendrobates> michalski: there is nothing that stops a user from using apt to install a desktop on the server.
<dendrobates> michalski: we just don't support it.
<nealmcb> but that would only matter for high-performance servers
<mralphabet> michalski: heh, everybody answering for you
<michalski> mralphabets: is there a help guide for that?
<michalski> mralphabets: i know it sucks :P
<mralphabet> michalski: apache and whatever else should be included in the "add remove programs"
<sommer> michalski: there's a task to create one: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/Roadmap#head-89567453e89879dec5253fb3ba56d27c6d27fc3f
<dendrobates> there is also nothing that stops a user from installing server apps on their desktop box
<nealmcb> michalski: but again - the direction for simple admin of a server in most of these cases is ebox -
<michalski> ok thanks
<mralphabet> michalski: the desktop install pulls from the exact same repositories
<nijaba> sommer: minimal install, no tasks: 500M (466812928B) based on the vmdk size after install
<duluu> I experiencing some problem with latest version of php5
<nealmcb> nijaba: stop doing work - we're talking!! :-)
<sommer> nijaba: sweet, I'll revise the docs.  Just to double check we're going with 128M ram and 500M hd?
<soren> nijaba: That's a really good way to determinate it actually.
<duluu> already file bug to LP, and maybe Kees is working on it
<nijaba> sommer: df shows 420M used
<soren> nijaba: ..as that takes temporary storage into account.
<nijaba> sommer: yes
<sommer> cool I'll get it updated.
<nijaba> sommer: wait for the "all tasks" results
<sommer> nijaba: yep, will do
<michalski> dendrobates: i want to join tons of different groups,but their meetings are during school hours, what do i do?
<michalski> ...without missing school :P
<soren> michalski: Cut class.
<soren> Oh.
<soren> :)
<michalski> lol
<sommer> another item I had was that we're adding a lot of new conent to the docs and if anyone is willing to help review that would be awesome.
<nealmcb> michalski: you can participate in lots of stuff really well via email
<michalski> ubuntu members?
<sommer> I can send you the xml files if you don't want to check out the whole repo.
<nijaba> sommer: I'm always up for it :)
<michalski> nijaba, sommer: thanks
<nealmcb> michalski: http://mcburnett.org/neal/talks/contribute_to_ubuntu.html
<sommer> nijaba: very cool, thanks
<michalski> nealmcb: haha cool i am 14 :P
<nealmcb> michalski: we've already got one 14-year-old ubuntu member :-)
<nijaba> the problem with young guys, is that they tend to grow older every year ;)
<michalski> nealmcb: realy wow
<mralphabet> o0
<michalski> lol yeah
<dendrobates> ok, if there is nothing else, were done.
<dendrobates> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 16:57.
<soren> Woo!
<sommer> thanks all
<nijaba> cheers
<nealmcb> mathias would be proud
<duluu> thanks all
<nealmcb> michalski: chat with peanutb on e.g. #ubuntu-us
<michalski> nealmcb: ok
<ardchoille> @now
<ubotu> Current time in Etc/UTC: December 11 2007, 22:13:09 - Next meeting: Kubuntu Developers in 1 day
#ubuntu-meeting 2007-12-12
<Hobbsee> @schedule sydney
<ubotu> Schedule for Australia/Sydney: 13 Dec 10:00: Kubuntu Developers | 14 Dec 01:00: Desktop Team Development | 19 Dec 02:00: Server Team meeting | 21 Dec 01:00: Desktop Team Development
<ardchoille> The more I see ubotu do, the more useful he appears :)
<ardchoille> kudos to ubotu's developer
<Hobbsee> ardchoille: ther eare multiple
<Hobbsee> ardchoille: and contrary to what scottk says, kubuntu and ubuntu membership are pretty much the same.
<ardchoille> Hobbsee: Ah, ok.. well I'm on the agenda for both. I just didn't wanna miss the meetings.
<somerville32> What does ScottK have to say about that?
<Hobbsee> CC meetings take forever
<ardchoille> He told me to become an Ubuntu member and bug Hobbsee until she added me to kubuntu membership too
<somerville32> That was cute of him
<Hobbsee> scottk has now been enlightened.
<Hobbsee> somerville32: people make mistakes at times.
<Hobbsee> somerville32: do you even have an edubuntu council yet?
<somerville32> Hobbsee, I'm pretty edubuntu has a council but I'm not a part of it. I only got involved in Edubuntu recently
<somerville32> *pretty sure
<Hobbsee> erm, s/edubuntu/xubuntu/ sorry.
<somerville32> No, it doesn't have a council - just xubuntu-team really
<Hobbsee> edubuntu has a council
<somerville32> cool
<calc> hi
 * asac waves
<evand> hi
<heno> hi
<liw> hi, evand
 * pedro_ waves
<heno> evand, asac: do we have a meeting room clash again? - platform/qa
<evand> ah, apparently
<evand> hi liw
<evand> hrm, off to #ubuntu-platform then
<asac> oh
 * ArneGoetje waves
 * Hobbsee wonders why neither of them are on the fridge calendar.
<asac> ArneGoetje: -> #ubuntu-platform
<seb128> hi
<ArneGoetje> asac: got it
<asac> seb128: u2 ;)
 * heno did email the fridge editors requesting a posting
<Hobbsee> did you sacrifice a pigeon?  they're quite partial to pigeons.
 * bdmurray wonders what he missed
<ogasawara> heh
<Hobbsee> quite unlike launchpad, really.  perhaps a good thing, that.
<liw> bdmurray, :) "* heno did email the fridge editors requesting a posting"
<Hobbsee> bdmurray: only discussions about sacrificing qa developers for various causes.
<heno> only if we run out of pigeons
<bdmurray> Weird, I think I had a dream about being eaten by a hippo last night
<heno> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 16:03. The chair is heno.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<liw> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/QATeam has the agenda
<heno> Welcome all! Agenda: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/QATeam
<heno> [TOPIC] Cool QA stuff happening
<MootBot> New Topic:  Cool QA stuff happening
<heno> This shouldn't require much discussion, just FIY
<heno> all very cool though :)
<liw> I have a quick question
<heno> ok
<liw> ogasawara, how close are you to accepting random new sources of information with the weather report? I'm thinking that the hardy piuparts results might be a good addition
<ogasawara> liw: should be easy enough, it's basically just a template that I dump the data to
<liw> ogasawara, ok, in that case could you e-mail me what you would need from me? I can adjust the piuparts output to what you need easily
<ogasawara> liw:  will do
<liw> ogasawara, when you're ready to add things, that is, no hurry yet from me
<heno> liw: how would you plan to condense it? Total number of errors, warnings, etc?
<liw> ok, I'm done on this topic :)
<liw> heno, in useful ways that I haven't decided yet :)
<heno> ok
<heno> anyone else on this topic?
<heno> moving on
<heno> [TOPIC] Spec status: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/QATeam/Specs
<MootBot> New Topic:  Spec status: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/QATeam/Specs
<heno> any notable achievements or blockage on specs?
<ogasawara> none here
<heno> (this meeting item will become more central later in the cycle)
<liw> nothing from me; I haven't really started work on the automated desktop testing thing, having spent my time wrestling with piuparts and qemu and wandering about the Spanish plains
<pedro_> none here either, just waiting for the QA feedback module
* ubotu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 12 Dec 20:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 12 Dec 23:00 UTC: Kubuntu Developers | 13 Dec 14:00 UTC: Desktop Team Development | 18 Dec 15:00 UTC: Server Team meeting | 20 Dec 14:00 UTC: Desktop Team Development
<heno> liw: the lintian and piuparts stuff could have been represented by a spec I guess
<liw> heno, I guess
<heno> ok, next
<heno> [TOPIC] QA hardy bug list - we are preparing a list of long-standing and 'popular' bugs for hardy which we will present to the development community shortly
<MootBot> New Topic:  QA hardy bug list - we are preparing a list of long-standing and 'popular' bugs for hardy which we will present to the development community shortly
<heno> I just sent an email to the QA list about this
<heno> I've had feedback from Pedro by email so far
<liw> I think it sounds like a great idea; I don't have any particular bugs to suggest, though
<heno> I guess the main question is: can we do this in ~10 days?
<liw> (except anything I've reported myself, obviously ;-)
<heno> yes, that would be why I didn't post it to the ubuntu-users mailing list :)
<heno> every bug in LP would be nominated
<heno> bdmurray, ogasawara: views?
<liw> this list is going to be compiled with the best possible taste, I guess, not by voting?
<heno> liw: drawing on the accumulated knowledge of our esteemed triage team, yes
<bdmurray> heno: I think I can get mine done by then
<ogasawara> heno: yah, seems reasonable
<bdmurray> The next hug day should be pretty easy to setup I think
<heno> bdmurray: focusing on this list?
<pedro_> we also have a few nominations here : https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/hardy/+nominations
<bdmurray> heno: I meant it won't take that much of the rest of my time
<heno> pedro_: yep, I'll take on looking at those
<heno> bdmurray: ok cool
<pedro_> ok!
<heno> any other meeting topics?
<bdmurray> ogasawara: and I have talked about it but we were thinking kernel bugs for the 19th
<bdmurray> asking people to test with Alpha 2
 * liw has no more topics for today
<heno> bdmurray, ogasawara: sounds good
<bdmurray> We could start doing some statistic collecing on the +nominations . . .
<heno> bdmurray: what sort of stats?
<bdmurray> heno: just numbering gathering - the standard stuff
<bdmurray> er number gathering ;)
<Hobbsee> heno: forums should be able to help you with that, too
 * heno still has a fair number of +nominations to go through
<bdmurray> interestingly 18 of the hardy ones are New
<heno> Hobbsee: yep, jono is looking at that
<heno> most of the gutsy ones i've looked at were new
<heno> (now generally something else)
<Hobbsee> heno: cool
<bdmurray> Will everybody be around on the 2nd of January for the next Hug Day?
<ogasawara> bdmurray: I'll be here
<heno> I will
<bdmurray> pedro_: ?
<pedro_> yep me too
<liw> I will, too
<liw> assuming it is of any help
<bdmurray> sure it is
<heno> finally note that there is a bug day today as well! focusing on ubiquity bugs. -> #ubuntu-bugs
<heno> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 16:25.
<heno> ok, thanks all!
<heno> 25 minutes, not bad :)
<liw> we're learning :)
<bdmurray> So Friday it will be 4 weeks past the update-manager bug day
 * liw needs to run
<liw> bye bye
<bdmurray> So please go through your Incompletes or I'll be happy to do it for you
<seb128> I've a bugtriage suggestion
<seb128> needs to mail the list about that
<seb128> but it would be nice to encourage users to get backtraces using apport
<seb128> rather than pointing them to the "how to use gdb instructions"
<bdmurray> seb128: what do you mean?
<seb128> that would be much easier for them and would allow automatic retracing and duplicates closing
<seb128> bdmurray: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Bugs/Responses
<seb128> Missing a back trace
<seb128> "Thank you for taking the time to report this bug and helping to make Ubuntu better. Please try to obtain a backtrace following the instructions at [WWW] http://wiki.ubuntu.com/DebuggingProgramCrash and upload the backtrace (as an attachment) to the bug report. This will greatly help us in tracking down your problem."
<bdmurray> I meant more the process for using apport to get the back trace
<stgraber> hello
<seb128> well, tell them to go to /var/crash and double click on the .crash
<seb128> rather than send them to "how to get a backtrace using gdb"
<bdmurray> okay, I understand
<seb128> this way we get automatic retracing, dub finder, etc
<seb128> and they don't have to figure what dbgsym to install
<seb128> easier for everybody
<bdmurray> seb128: If you could mail then list and/or add it to the todo list that would be great
<seb128> I'll mail the list
* ubotu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Current meeting: Edubuntu Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 12 Dec 23:00 UTC: Kubuntu Developers | 13 Dec 14:00 UTC: Desktop Team Development | 18 Dec 15:00 UTC: Server Team meeting | 20 Dec 14:00 UTC: Desktop Team Development
<scrapbunny> is the edubuntu meeting in a few minutes?
<LaserJock> yep
<scrapbunny> great, thanks
<ardchoille> Is the kubuntu meeting going to be held in here in about 3 hours?
<scrapbunny> ardchoille- according to the fridge, yes
<ardchoille> scrapbunny: Thanks.
<ardchoille> I have a habit of being somewhere other than where I wanted to be, lol
 * stgraber waves
<ardchoille> "fridge", that was a cool name. I wonder who thought of that.
<ogra> ardchoille, eff waugh
<ogra> *jeff
<ardchoille> :)
<LaserJock> ok, I'm here
<RichEd> oh what a relief we can begin ... the *main man* Mr LaserJock is in attendance
<RichEd> :)
<LaserJock> hah
<scrapbunny> thanks to the mailing list i finally figured out how to tell what time these meetings are at
<RichEd> evening all ... the usuals ... and welcome to any newcomers
<ogra> scrapbunny, yeah the fridge urgently needs fixing
<ardchoille> scrapbunny: Indeed, I dislike time zones
<RichEd> hi scrapbunny ... yep we need to get our meetings back up on the fridge ... it got dinged a while back
<ogra> well, for the other teams in the topic it seems to work
<RichEd> ogra: i asked for today's meeting to go up in the fridge channel ... and requested to the end of jan via the mail list
<ogra> ah, good
<RichEd> we'll skip "boxing day" to have a decent break from komputas
<LaserJock> yeah, I'll try to get to those
<LaserJock> I'm not sure why we don't have a decent event scheduler yet, but it is what it is
<scrapbunny> the time zone thing got me but i learned how to find out the universial time in terminal :)
<LaserJock> scrapbunny: yeah, it's a life saver for sure
<RichEd> one sec ... let me get the list for the next while and paste
<RichEd> --> Edubuntu Meeting : Dec 19 : 12h00-14h00 UTC
<RichEd> Edubuntu Meeting : Jan 02 : 20h00-22h00 UTC
<RichEd> Edubuntu Meeting : Jan 09 : 12h00-14h00 UTC
<RichEd> Edubuntu Meeting : Jan 16 : 20h00-22h00 UTC
<RichEd> Edubuntu Meeting : Jan 17 : 12h00-14h00 UTC
<RichEd> Edubuntu Meeting : Jan 23 : 20h00-22h00 UTC
<RichEd> Edubuntu Meeting : Jan 30 : 12h00-14h00 UTC
<RichEd> <-- that will all go up on the fridge
<RichEd> okay ... let's kick off with TECHNICAL
<RichEd> take it away ogra ...
<ogra> well, i actually have done nothing edubuntu related apart from working on the classmate image autobuilder stuff with the livefs tools
<ogra> beyond that debian import freeze is tomorrow and i had to do merge stuff
<ogra> (still two packages left for the night)
<ogra> due to traveling i didnt to and dev work during the beginning of the week
<ogra> *do
<ogra> ahead we have the alpha2 release on dec 20th
<ogra> i'll try to get the major CD changes done for that
<LaserJock> so we are going to drop the 1st CD for Hardy?
<ogra> yes
<RichEd> hey corey :)
<scrapbunny> ogra- you might not think it technical but without your tech help this month  I would have nothing working so I really thank you :)
<ogra> and ltsp needs to go on the ubuntu alternate CD properly
<RichEd> for the benefit of the new people, ogra please explain:
<RichEd> #1 what is happening with LTSP
<RichEd> #2 and your new reporting structure ... being part of a bigger team
<ogra> scrapbunny, well, even though i was slightly bitter when answering the mail on the list today, there is a grin of truth in the thread about degrading quality and we need to adress that
<RichEd> ( please :)
<ogra> *grain
 * RichEd pleads in our defence that we have recognised almost all of the problem areas, and are already adressing some
<ogra> well, LTSP is team maintained by a board of developers from fedora, debian, upstream and ubuntu now, we changed the whole code structure and sparated the distro specific packaging ...
<ogra> inside ubuntu it will move on the ubuntu alternate CD as an option
<Burgundavia> hey RichEd
<ogra> the first edubuntu CD will go away and edubuntu will completely turn into an addon
<ogra> ...
<ogra> i moved back into the distro team from being a developer "team" on my own
<ogra> distro specific tasks i had to do in edubuntu will rather be delegated to the specalists for the specific feature  ... i.e. server related work will be done with the server team
<LaserJock> who will work on LTSP?
<ogra> so i can share out more workload whle helping the team as a whole
<ogra> LaserJock, upstream or in ubuntu ?
<LaserJock> ubuntu
<ogra> me fr now
<ogra> *for
<scrapbunny> so with hardy for a school lab we would install ubuntu from the alternate cd for ltsp and then edubuntu-desktop?
<ogra> scrapbunny, right
<ogra> that way edubuntu-desktop can be only lots of edu apps and branding while it depends on ubuntu-desktop  ... i.e. we dont need to maintain ubuntu-desktop and only have to care for the edu related stuff
<ogra> that raises quality since more time for the actual apps is available
<ogra> the sam goes for the distro core ... installer, etc
<ogra> *same
<scrapbunny> that will be good. will we go to having edubuntu-desktop updated once a year?
<ogra> it drops off a lot workload and ubuntu benefits as well
<ogra> edubuntu is tied o the ubuntu cycle
<ogra> what we coud do is to call one a beta release
<ogra> *could
<LaserJock> I don't think we really gain anything by doing 1 year releases
<ogra> but we will have to stick to the release schedules of ubuntu
<ogra> me neither to be honest
<RichEd> scrapbunny: the alternating "production / evaluation" release for education was just a suggestion (as per the mail list today)
<scrapbunny> i think that sounds good and goes with what people were saying on the mailing list
<LaserJock> we can try to do a "we're gonna focus on crack on .10 releases and bug fixing/stability on .04" but we should still release every 6 months IMO
<RichEd> we can debate it through ... but the school terms north/south is still an issue
<ogra> beyond that as i said we're bound to the schedule
 * ogra points to https://wiki.ubuntu.com/HardyReleaseSchedule
<ogra> there is only a slim time of development
<ogra> then the different stabilizing freezes kick in
<ogra> for doing a 1 year release that doesnt do well
<RichEd> scrapbunny: the idea of a stable tested release alternating with a whizz bang preview release seems to have some support
<ogra> since everything breaks in the middle of your relese schedule if ubuntu resyncs with debian
<ogra> so you can start over
<RichEd> we'll still release every 6 months, but could pay more attention to testing and stability for an agreed annual release
<scrapbunny> really given what ogra is saying that edubuntu will now be an add on I think people will be able to pick if they want to update to 8.4 or 8.10 or both
<ogra> i'm pretty sure that makes it less stable that imply getting enough (read more than 3) testers
<ogra> *simply
<stgraber> :)
<RichEd> let's keep that discussion going in the mail list ... 8.04 is LTS ... so the point is moot for another cycle at least
<ogra> well, the point of more manpower is never moot
<RichEd> ogra: agreed ... but it may be easier to rope the community into an annual wall-to-wall testing effort
<RichEd> like a "test fest week" :)
<scrapbunny> sorry for a silly question but when can we start testing 8.04?
<ogra> today :)
<ogra> there are daily isos being built ... we made the first alpha CD
<RichEd> stgraber: you've got a neat testing admin process ... is there a newbies follow the yellow footsteps guide to getting involved ?
<stgraber> well, IIRC current images have gnome-orca and OpenOffice broken, but you can still get the Alpha1 and upgrade
<ogra> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/HardyReleaseSchedule has the release dates for alpha CDs
<scrapbunny> i would be happy to test it out as we go on a winter break next week
<ogra> wrt to ltsp that will move over to the ubuntu alternate iso so testing will have to happen with that one
<RichEd> stgraber: ^ my comment ??
<stgraber> RichEd: joining #ubuntu-testing the week we release the Alpha is a start, the Testing/ wikipages are currently being rewritten to be more attractive and understandable to newcomers
<RichEd> stgraber: well as I said in the mail response today, testing is *vital* to oliver ... let's make sure that *anyone* who wants to help can get invoved as easily as possible ...
<RichEd> *involved
<RichEd> highvoltage: you around ?
<scrapbunny> 7.10 is not working well with my client load so i am trying to decide if I should a)use 7.04 b)try debian-edu c)test 8.04 or d) give up since i am still pretty new to everything and in over my head :)
<beachy>    /part ubuntu
<RichEd> a nice prominent "you can be a tester" link on edubuntu.org would be good
<stgraber> scrapbunny: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Testing/ISO
<LaserJock> scrapbunny: you don't want to try testing 8.04 in production, although it is very valuable in general
<ogra> for the classmate interested people, i played a bit with XUL while sitting on trains the last days http://people.ubuntu.com/~ogra/LightBrowser/ :)
<scrapbunny> laserjock- since i'm using my lab as thin clients testing is no big, if it totally false I just switch some cables and the computers boot to their windows xp harddrives :)
<LaserJock> ah, that's very cool
<ogra> yeah
<LaserJock> ogra: what is that exactly?
<scrapbunny> gotta love having a donated server to play with :)
<ogra> LaserJock, a little browser based on xulruner
<LaserJock> ogra: that would *so* rock for documentation
<ogra> LaserJock, has all firefox features out of the box but uses way less ram, only one win and no tabs
<ogra> (can have all ff features i didnt enable many :) )
<scrapbunny> ogra- will it handle flash or quicktime sites?
<ogra> but its a lot of fun to write apps in :)
<ogra> scrapbunny, if the plugins are installed, yes
<ogra> it uses all FF plugins ou of the box
<ogra> *out
<scrapbunny> very cool
<ogra> the engine is the same .... only behavior and ui are small :)
<ogra> but that cuts down a lot
<LaserJock> ogra: will we actually have that for Hardy?
<ogra> LaserJock, its no official project, its a spare time thing i started
<ogra> but if i manage to get all functions working properly it will go into universe in any case
<scrapbunny> as you may remember one of my issues is that i need to be able to run flash internet sites in my lab and my server runs out of cpu too fast with firefox
<LaserJock> yeah, I'm just thinking it would be a very nice documentation tool for Hardy
<ogra> LaserJock, the fon size thing only exists in the ui yet ... you cant remove bookmarks either and the code is crap and needs to be sanitzed .... f i get that done i'll release it
<ogra> (and put it into universe)
<ogra> its really hackish atm ... i wrote it in 5h train ride and a boring evening in the hotel
<ogra> scrapbunny, there is not much we can do about flash's cpu consumption i fear apart from making gnash better
<lns_> That's what I was going to ask..how's gnash dev going?
<scrapbunny> on testing did i understand correctly that we need to wait for ltsp to be added to the alternate cd?
<ogra> scrapbunny, no, the latest splitted ltsp packages need testing already
<ogra> they are already in hardy
<ogra> ltspfs is still waiting for some upstream changes but ill come soon
<ogra> *will
<scrapbunny> this is the site i want to grab things from right? https://iso.qa.stgraber.org/
<ogra> ldm is still waiing for me to split out a themes packgae ...
<ogra> right usually 3 days before a milestone is released is best to start some testing
<ogra> or two days if you dont want to experience the worst bugs :)
<ogra> if we build a milestone we usually start shuffling the CDs and clening out bugs for that on monday ... to release it on thursday
<ogra> testing during that time is the most valuable one
<stgraber> for first Alphas, we usually have the first candidates on Tuesday (Monday when we are lucky), Tuesday evening is just standard testing, Wednesday is where the fixed images are usually built, then testing on Wednesday evening for all the remaining testcases
<ogra> since we're all focused and in bugfixing mode :)
<stgraber> then published Thursday afternoon
<ogra> ... nothing more from my side about tech so far ...
<ogra> oh, one thing ...
<ogra> i heard from someone who installed in the triple e pc
<ogra> it seems to work very well with a normal install
<ogra> (it was a question from some weeks ago)
<LaserJock> cool
<stgraber> cool
<ogra> suspend/resume seems to have the same probs as the classmate though
<ogra> but since t has a bigger flashdisk a normal instal wors just fine
<stgraber> ok, will order one as soon then
<ogra> (i really need to work on my typing)
<ogra> so thats it for tech
<ogra> any other questions ?
<RichEd> okay ... LaserJock wanted to jump in on tech if noone else has questions for oliver
<stgraber> from my side (iTalc), the one that was recently uploaded has non-working logout/shutdown/reboot
<stgraber> I have a new one with that fixed and I'm debugging the demo mode as we speak
<scrapbunny> side qustion-is the suspend/resume fixed in the hardy being tested now?
<ogra> stgraber, ping me for uploading
<stgraber> the LTSP scripts are also working but need some tweaking before being integrated
<stgraber> ogra: Just have to solve a bad segfault when entering demo mode ...
<ogra> scrapbunny, suspend/resume in which context ?
<ogra> stgraber, well, still plenty of development time :)
<ogra> and i really count on a better community participation in the future ...
<scrapbunny> for standalone laptops. i can't suspend on my dell d600 with 7.10
<stgraber> ogra: yes, I'm working on iTalc when I'm getting bored of working on the QA website, but I'm pretty proud of how it currently works, it's far better than what I had at UDS :)
<ogra> i wasnt happy about the mail thread today, but it shows something starts to move there
<ogra> which is a good thing
<ogra> stgraber, you rule !
 * ogra cheers for stgraber 
 * RichEd adds to the cheer
<LaserJock> \o/
<LaserJock> ok, so I had 6 things real quick I came up with
<RichEd> stgraber: you done ? LaserJock wants to raise a couple of points
<stgraber> RichEd: yep
<RichEd> couple != 6
<LaserJock> they're quick
<LaserJock> ;-)
<ogra> scrapbunny, did you file bugs ? such things are really very specific to one hardware usually ...
<scrapbunny> i think it is hard for people to understand that this is not windows or mac releases after 7 years of testing but a small group of unpaid people
<ogra> especially if it comes to laptops
<LaserJock> 1) Sugar. jani has been working on getting the Sugar interface working on regular machines. Is that something we'd be interested in?
<lns_> fwiw, i can help testing on the EEE pc
<RichEd> ogra: as per *that* mail thread ... is just filing a bug visible and helpful enough ? would it be good to have a "user added release notes" wiki page ?
 * ogra isnt a bit fan of sugars usability but for the sake of having it in the distro in any case
<ogra> *big
<ogra> RichEd, for suspend/hibernate on the dell d600 ?
<LaserJock> 2) I also talked to jani about squeak
<scrapbunny> riched- i think it would be a big help for edubuntu bugs
<ogra> scrapbunny, thats not edubuntu relted at all
<ogra> *related
<RichEd> ogra ... even a one liner for "known issues" is useful ... to read all at a glance ... it just needs to be a topic & link to actual bug report
<LaserJock> he'd like to see squeak and etoys updated an in *buntu
<ogra> RichEd, it has nothing to d with edubuntu
<scrapbunny> i have a hard time finding the right catagory to put my bug reports in
<ogra> RichEd, the CD split will make that clearer though
<RichEd> ogra: well then we can add a note to say ... ubuntu related ... and deflect bad perceptions ...
<RichEd> and also, users could add a bug and say "I need help filing this properly"
<ogra> RichEd, i dont work on/ change anything of the ubuntu base in edubuntu
<ogra> so suspend hibernate bugs surely dont belong in our release notes
<LaserJock> ogra: I don't think people would see that split
<LaserJock> I agree that Release Notes is a bit odd
<RichEd> but the report comes in from our users and they think it's our issue ... so we can refer to the correct responsible party
<ogra> LaserJock, if they have to install ubuntu to get edubuntu ?
<LaserJock> but certainly some sort of Errata would be useful
<ogra> they will *feel* that split
<ogra> not only see it
<ogra> they have to use a second CD
<scrapbunny> sorry i think my side question on suspend/hibernate is getting confused with the need for an easy place for all edubuntu related bugs to be found and discussed
<LaserJock> ogra: yes, in that case it's much better
<ogra> scrapbunny, well, usually bugs need to get assigned to packages at some point ... but if you dont know what to file a bug against thats no problem
<ogra> first of all filing it is important
<ogra> we have a team of bug triagers that goes over them and will try to get the right info out of you to assign it to the right package and people
<RichEd> scrapbunny: i also feel the need for a single reference page ... it will also give people confidence if they can read through to look for known issues against their current hardware or intended hardware purchse
<ogra> launchpad will subscribe the edubuntu-bugs team to all bugs that are filed on edubuntu related packages
<ogra> (we might to check that the list is up to date here, i think that hasnt happened for a while)
<LaserJock> I check once in a while
 * lns_ agrees with bug/doc/etc consolidation and easier tracking of current issues/information
<RichEd> so how many supporters for a "known issues" overview wiki page, listing:
<RichEd> a one liner description for each issue
<RichEd> a status of whether it has been filed properly in launchpad (with link)
<RichEd> a status if the reporting person needs help with proper logging/filing
<LaserJock> sounds good
 * lns_ raises hand
<LaserJock> we might have to work a bit on implementation
<ogra> RichEd, how would you judge what goes on that page from the X1000 bugs we get every day in ubuntu ?
<LaserJock> basically it should be mapping what we *should* already be doing
<RichEd> * note that this will need user input ... it will largely be a self filing system ...
<ogra> and who would maintain that
<RichEd> ogra: users add their issue ... we scan it weekly before meetings, and redirect problems that are not our own
<lns_> Personally, I really like LP, I just think it could use an overhaul for user-friendliness
<michalski> somebody who doesnt have a life :P
<RichEd> it will be good for communications with our community
<RichEd> and also it would be nice if we could find someone to monitor the mailing lists for issues ...
<ogra> RichEd, i disagree here LP should be the too to handle bugs ... we should see that we get it straight there
<LaserJock> RichEd: I don't think it should be filled by users
<michalski> spamming isues
<LaserJock> what we *do* need is a list of high impact bugs that we have workarounds or upcoming fixes
<LaserJock> it's about us giving info to users not users giving us info
<LaserJock> we should be getting bug info from Launchpad
<ogra> right
<michalski> laserjock: good idea
<RichEd> question: do all of our users scan launchpad for bugs before an upgrade or install ?
<ogra> we used to do that for milestones in the past
<LaserJock> RichEd: hahaha
<LaserJock> I don't think most developers do that
 * ogra does that the end of the week week before a milestone week usually
<michalski> riched: i sure hope they dont scan every bug in launchpad
<lns_> My problem with LP is that it's too 'flat' when searching for things... bug status, importance, there's hardly any sorting/filtering mechanisms and it makes it really hard to actually get to relevant information
<michalski> ins: what do you mean?
<lns_> the search function is ok but compared to others i've seen it could use much improvement
<RichEd> LaserJock: so would it not be useful to have a wiki page where someone can add ... installing 7.10 on my ***PC would not suspend/ resume
<ogra> lns_, https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bugs?advanced=1 thats not enough fuctions ?
<michalski> yes, but we dont want the wiki filling up with bug reports
<lns_> michalski, basically when i go to launchpad and look for issues (related to problems i'm having) i'm not confident at all that i've successfully parsed all information correctly
<michalski> what exactly makes you unconfident?
<LaserJock> RichEd: no
<LaserJock> RichEd: that's what bug reporting is for
<michalski> and theres also the ubuntu forums for bugs and stuff
<ogra> RichEd, it totally wouldnt be useful to hide the bugs from the devs that way ...
<lns_> ogra, i didn't see that before - but that seems like TOO much to go through - you lose the forest in the trees so to speak
<ogra> and we shouldnt do the work of the triage team either
 * RichEd sits down and defers
<ogra> RichEd, we have a team for assigning them to the right people so i dont think we should go over them ever meeting
<michalski> ogra, we could try to impliment an automatic triage system?
<lns_> michalski, because there is too much information when you browse through things, you're not always sure which package you're supposed to be looking at when searching bugs, or if people who filed similar bugs put the right package in, etc
<ogra> we could see that the edubuntu-bugs teamlist is properly up to date
<ogra> i'm pretty sure we can get bugstats for that automatically on a weekly base
<RichEd> ogra: a final comment from me ... my intention was for a user "pre-install warning" page ... not the fix part of the problem ... that should take the established route
<LaserJock> RichEd: The usefulness, as I said, of such a page would be to alert users of big issues
<michalski> ins: hmmm....
<LaserJock> RichEd: right, but it's gotta come from us to them, not them to us
 * LaserJock realizes he's created a big "us" and "them" there ;-)
<ogra> heh
<RichEd> LaserJock: we do have cases where people scream in the channel or mail list ... your 7.10 broke my whatsit ... and they do not file and log anything ... they just leave in a noisy sulk ... lp bug report is a schlep to them ...
<RichEd> so a "add your whinge here" wiki page is low effort
<michalski> lol not good for public image :P
<LaserJock> RichEd: no, we should take that an create a proper "entry" for that
<ogra> it has nothing t do with public image it braes the developer workflow
<LaserJock> we shouldn't have just complaints
<ogra> *brakes
<ogra> having bugs on mailing lists, forums, wikis is a wrong approach
<LaserJock> we want "this is what is broken and this is how it's getting dealt with" and that should come from developers
<lns_> What i see is a bunch of great facilities for getting help/bug reports, but they are all fragmented and disconnected, so everything basically means nothing to someone - they don't know where to look, and it's too frustrating to try and search through every medium
<ogra> the only thig where they belong is a bugtracker
<ogra> thats the only way to get them in the attention of developers
<michalski> ogra: i agree
<ogra> as soon as a user thinks his bug is taken care of because he whined about it on a wikipage or forum entry without filing a bug you have lst
<ogra> *lost
<lns_> ogra, i agree that the bugtracker NEEDS to be THE central focal point for getting issues resolved
<michalski> we could have those taking care of the wiki and forums to "recommend" that they go to the bug section
<ogra> michalski, righ, thats the right way
<LaserJock> so the policy like on -motu when somebody complains is to point them to Launchpad in a nice way
<michalski> i hope that wasnt sarcasm im new :S
<ogra> right
<ogra> michalski, nope, that wasnt sarcasm :)
<michalski> ok :)
<Tm_T> agreed, bugs in launchpad, impossible to track them otherwise
<ogra> we might have a better guide for users to use LP though ...
<michalski> ins: at least if all the bugs are in a central location, they get fixed eventually
<ogra> and as i said, having regular automated reports with bugstats for edu related packages
<lns_> michalski, exactly
<LaserJock> ogra: agreed
<michalski> sorry have to go eat supper, bye
<LaserJock> I think pretty much everything brought up by the ML thread can be fixed without new processes
<LaserJock> it's a matter of documentation and communication
<lns_> It would be so cool to have an easier to 'drill down' interface in LP
<LaserJock> lns_: that's something that can be worked on and documented
<LaserJock> it's difficult to change the interface sometimes, but there can certainly be a guide on how to get things done
<ogra> lns_, beyond that you can file whishlist bugs against LP *in* LP :)
<lns_> oh cool
<lns_> wasn't aware of that ;)
<ogra> anyway, i'd ike to close tech now to leave RichEd still some time for community  ....
<ogra> we're at 90min already
<RichEd> LaserJock: are you finished with your 6 points ?
<ogra> RichEd, oh, i think we came to 1 :) and then te bug discussion started
<ogra> <LaserJock> 2) I also talked to jani about squeak
<RichEd> LaserJock: go on then ... i'll need 15 mins or so ...
<ogra> that got swallowed in the discussion
<LaserJock> ok
<LaserJock> so we already have a plan for squeak
<LaserJock> I'll try to get that going
<ogra> great :)
<LaserJock> but he also wanted etoys
 * ogra needs to look up what that is
<LaserJock> I think it uses squeak perhaps
<ogra> hmm
<LaserJock> also there are some other edu stuff that uses squeak
<ogra> google isnt helpful
<ogra> (got me to a shopping site)
<scrapbunny> i know that the XO laptop will have etoys, that's all i know about it :)
<LaserJock> right
<ogra> ah, yeah it uses squeak
<LaserJock> I'm pulling up my convo with him now
<LaserJock> there's also croquet and seaside
<LaserJock> anyway
<ogra> do you know if he's aware that we'll never have arm support ?
<LaserJock> for?
<ogra> OLPC
<LaserJock> I have no idea
<ogra> so having all the apps in is a bit pointless ...
<ogra> but i dont object it indeed
<LaserJock> anyway, I was kinda wondering if we can have a little squeak set for people
<ogra> the OLPC laptop is arm based ... ubuntu doesnt and will not support arm
<LaserJock> I have no idea how useful it'd be and obviously we can't ship it
<mjg59`> ogra: ?
<mjg59`> ogra: It's x86
<ogra> mjg59`, OLPC ?
<mjg59`> Yes
<ogra> since when ?
<mjg59`> Since forever
<ogra> the last time i saw it it was arm they told me ...
<mjg59`> No
<ogra> hrm
<mjg59`> It's Geode, which is embedded x86
<ogra> yay for good information ressources
 * ogra takes that back then 
<mjg59`> However, it doesn't have a standard BIOS, so the default Ubuntu won't install
<ogra> LaserJock, who would create such a set ?
<LaserJock> umm ....
 * LaserJock looks around
 * somerville32 is here now.
<ogra> we need squeak enthusiasts
<LaserJock> if the squeak upstream guys have it
<LaserJock> then it should be easy
<ogra> do they ?
<LaserJock> I just wondered if that'd be a good selling point
 * ogra cant remember
<LaserJock> I'm not sure about etoys, but I think I've seen seaside and croquet packges floating around
<LaserJock> my squeak work back in dapper produced a lot of bug reports
<scrapbunny> they even have some apps for you to install on the xo, http://www.laptopgiving.org/en/software-and-interface.php#Download
<LaserJock> *somebody* must be using it
<ogra> well, if there is an rpm there sureyl is an upstream tarball of etoys
<LaserJock> ok, well I just wanted to point that out
<Burgundavia> upstream git
<Burgundavia> at the very least
<Burgundavia> I don't know and haven't seen tarballs and I think Jani is building out of upstream git
 * ogra remembers there was a german company that uses squeak a lot they offered help once ... i have t look up the contacts ... 
<LaserJock> 3) dynamic menus
<LaserJock> I'm pretty blocked here
<ogra> Burgundavia, jani builds it ?
<LaserJock> basically we've got to think of a different way to do dynamic menus
<ogra> then it should be straightforward to get it in
<Burgundavia> ogra: I think he does, he has most of the other OLPC stuff
<LaserJock> or convince gnome, fd.org to make it possible
<Burgundavia> https://launchpad.net/~sugar/+archive
<Burgundavia> maybe not
<ogra> LaserJock, got any suggestions for a solution from the gnome side ?
<LaserJock> well
<ogra> if they think their current spec suffices they should be able to point out a solution
<LaserJock> part of the problem, as I understand it, is that gnome doesn't properly implement the XDG spec
<ogra> then we need to make them fix it (or do that ourselves *sigh*)
<LaserJock> my understanding is that you should be able to "stack" the XDG_CONFIG_DIRS paths
<LaserJock> like you would with PATH
<ogra> and that doesnt work ?
<LaserJock> so we should be able to set XDG_CONFIG_DIRS=/etc/xdg/:/usr/share/edubuntu-menus/
<LaserJock> however, Gnome will only take the first one
<ogra> so lets fix that or make them fix it
<ogra> that seems to be the only opion
<LaserJock> so the essential problem
<LaserJock> is that right now we are moving XDG_CONFIG_DIRS to our own directory
<LaserJock> before say Feisty, that directory was only used for menus, so everything was good
<LaserJock> but now it's used for much more, like autostart stuff
<LaserJock> so we break everything if we redirect
<ogra> right
<ogra> its not the right approach anymore
<ogra> we need the above fixed
<LaserJock> so my idea would be that if you can stack the config dirs
<LaserJock> it should look for the menu *first* in /usr/share/edubuntu-menus
<LaserJock> I believe this is how KDE does it, from what aaron segio said in Paris
<ogra> you can flip the values (or jus prepend the edu dir)
<ogra> yeah
<LaserJock> so, how should I proceed?
<ogra> poke for a fix
<LaserJock> shall I talk to seb or gnome directly or ...?
<ogra> if there is no reaction, pkoe me
<ogra> either should be fine
<ogra> seb will forward it
<LaserJock> ok,
<LaserJock> the last thing of relevance that I had was, do we have an idea of what apps we want to ship?
<LaserJock> I would like to make some changes to the edu apps
<LaserJock> but do we have a plan somewhere?
<ogra> i guess file a list with suggestions to the ML is best
<ogra> i didnt have a specific plan beyond whats in the live desktop atm
<LaserJock> I want to get rid of rasmol
<LaserJock> will dropping it from the seed be enough to get it demoted?
<ogra> drop to universe `
<ogra> ?
<ogra> yeah thats enough
<LaserJock> yeah, it's just too old and I'm finding better apps
<ogra> its only on the addon seed
 * ogra has to vanish at 11 (in 7 min) 
<LaserJock> ok, I'm done
<RichEd> okay ... me gives a quick overview of 2 plans in action for community
<RichEd> #1 volunteer uptake process
<somerville32> \o/
 * RichEd will cut & paste to save time, but essentially I'd like people to check out the wiki pages
<RichEd> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Edubuntu/Community/VolunteerUptakeProcess
<RichEd> <paste warning>
<RichEd> People pop up in #edubuntu, say they would be keen to help, but often do not get engaged.
<RichEd> We recognise that a better volunteer structure and uptake/introduction process would make a difference here.
<RichEd> What also happens is that the person who offers to help is usually in the channel to get a solution to a particular problem. Often they get back to their daily issues once they resolve their issue, and do not "come back" to carry thought their offer of help.
<RichEd> We ourselves are busy (with work or travel) and usually do not get the time to hold their hand and lead them to the right place.
<RichEd> We are sorting out a process which will allow us to easily kick an intro email to them for later response, and have also come up with the volunteer position of "Edubuntu Ambassador" ... who will be an individual with the role of performing introductions and giving guidance to match volunteer skill and time availability to a decent work effort.
<RichEd> JonathanCarter is the first EdubuntuAmbassador, who will help to shape the role so it can easily be transferred to successors.
<RichEd> ---
<RichEd> so if you look at the wiki page, you will see a questionnaire we have sent out (once thus far to somerville32)
<RichEd> please check to see if you have added questions / comments
<RichEd> we'll refine the mail questionnaire into a web form when we have it reviewed
<RichEd> and add the web form URL to the channel topic here
<RichEd> --- make sense ? ---
<LaserJock> hmm, I'm still skeptical :-)
<RichEd> LaserJock: add comments to the page, we'll bounce this around over the next few weeks
<RichEd> #2 Launchpad Education Groups Policy
<RichEd> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Education/Launchpad/Groups/Policy
<LaserJock> I think it's kinda covering symptoms without addressing the real issue
<RichEd> we've agreed over the past few weeks that there are dead & overlap education groups in launchpad
<RichEd> leads to fragmentation & dead ends for new users
<RichEd> so we discussed a "policy for launchpad education groups" and will ask the existing groups to comply, or be pruned / absorbed
<RichEd> before we take decisive action, i'd like the community to agree that the "policy" is reasonable
<RichEd> see the wiki page for full details but there are 3 main points:
<RichEd> 1. Group Description is Useful
<RichEd>  * All groups must have a useful description in their overview
<RichEd> 2. Team Owner is Contactable
<RichEd>  * The Team Owner for a group must have a working contact address in their launchpad profile
<RichEd> 3. Group Overview Ubuntu Wiki Page
<RichEd>  * All Groups must have an overview Ubuntu Wiki Page
<RichEd> i will mail a link to that page, and the reason for the prune exercise to all existing group owners
<LaserJock> hmm, it's not bad, but again seems like a bandaid
<RichEd> we'll give them until the end of jan to get with the program, and then discuss pruning in the meeting
<RichEd> LaserJock: it's a tidy up so that our renewed efforts in the new year are not lost in the ether
<LaserJock> I guess I wonder if this policy is necessary
<LaserJock> have any other *buntu teams done something like this?
<LaserJock> I don't think anybody has as big a problem as we do with LP team, that might make the difference
<RichEd> here are the reasons we discussed previously:
<RichEd> There is little point to many fragmented and/or inactive groups, as new people join, and can get frustrated or disappointed by lack of interaction.
<RichEd> Less groups, less members, more meaningful activities would be a good target.
<RichEd> LaserJock: our community is (currently so small) that it does not help having 15 groups with one active member in each
<RichEd> all 15 would fit in one group and get more done :)
<LaserJock> right
<RichEd> ---
<Tm_T> too much splitting is harmful
<RichEd> anyway ... both of the above are a start and a suggestion
<LaserJock> but perhaps focusing on activating the ones we *do* want makes more sense
<LaserJock> just a thought
<RichEd> LaserJock: indeedly good sir ... cull the dead ends ... energise the survivors
<LaserJock> RichEd: it's a good wiki page though
<RichEd> please add comments / sugggestions to the page
 * RichEd notes that we have run out of time ... and it is now officially thursday where I sit
 * RichEd thanks *all* for a good meeting ... much more people ... much more interaction
 * lns_ claps
<LaserJock> yes, lots of fun
<somerville32> :)
<RichEd> let's give it a good go next week ... then a week's rest ... and hit 2008 running
<scrapbunny> thank you for include newbies like me in the process :)
<RichEd> scrapbunny: we love all people who love edubuntu :)
<RichEd> going once ....
<RichEd> going twice ?
<RichEd> BONG .., thanks all
<RichEd> 12h00UTC next wednesday ... same place
<lns_> ty RichEd
<scrapbunny> one last question- which hardy should i download for testing? i need ltsp and
<LaserJock> right now Edubuntu
<scrapbunny> the one from here?
<scrapbunny> http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/edubuntu/daily-live/current/
 * RichEd waves goodnight
 * lns_ scavenges for left over brownies
<LaserJock> scrapbunny: no, not the live one
<LaserJock> scrapbunny: you want from daily/
<scrapbunny> thanks, i see the server one now
<scrapbunny> so is the split ogra was talking about were we would install ubuntu alternate plus the edubuntu-desktop for the 8.10 release then?
<LaserJock> scrapbunny: you would install ubuntu alternate and then the edubuntu disc
<LaserJock> which would have edubuntu-desktop and whatever other goodies we want
<LaserJock> or you could install it from the net as well if you want
<LaserJock> just as now
<scrapbunny> i just thought there would no longer be a test edubuntu cd from what ogra said, only ubuntu alternate
<LaserJock> no
<LaserJock> Edubuntu will still produce a CD
<LaserJock> but it will be an addon CD
<LaserJock> scrapbunny: you know how now you have the Classroom Server CD and Classroom Server Addon CD?
<scrapbunny> right
<LaserJock> basically we're going to be using the Ubuntu Alternate disc instead of the Classroom Server CD
<scrapbunny> that was what i was thinking so it surpriced me that the testing site is still the classroom server and addon
<LaserJock> well, we haven't done the split yet :-)
<scrapbunny> well thank you soooo much for all the help as always. i am going to burn the current classroom server image and test it out friday
<LaserJock> scrapbunny: awesome, thanks a ton
<scrapbunny> hope everyone has a great night
* ubotu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 12 Dec 23:00 UTC: Kubuntu Developers | 13 Dec 14:00 UTC: Desktop Team Development | 18 Dec 15:00 UTC: Server Team meeting | 20 Dec 14:00 UTC: Desktop Team Development
* ubotu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Current meeting: Kubuntu Developers Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 13 Dec 14:00 UTC: Desktop Team Development | 18 Dec 15:00 UTC: Server Team meeting | 20 Dec 14:00 UTC: Desktop Team Development
<txwikinger> @schedule
<ubotu> Schedule for Etc/UTC: Current meeting: Kubuntu Developers 13 Dec 14:00: Desktop Team Development | 18 Dec 15:00: Server Team meeting | 20 Dec 14:00: Desktop Team Development
 * Tm_T pulls his pants up
 * mhb wakes up
 * X314 puts on a fresh pot of coffee
<ardchoille> X314: Thank you :)
<X314> ardchoille: well genii is not here yet so someone has to do the job ;)
<ardchoille> hehe
<cheguevara> there :P
<ardchoille> hi genii
<genii> Hello ardchoille :)
<dthacker-laptop> ooo coffee, back in a pflash
<Tm_T> someone should ship some coffee to me too
<X314> genii: the coffee pot is on and so am I ^^
<Tm_T> and cocacola
 * genii grabs one of X314's coffees
<genii> Pretty quiet for a meeting supposedly going on
<Riddell> Good Evening Friends
<ardchoille> hi Riddell
<Riddell> I don't think we have a quorum council
<txwikinger> hi Riddell
<mhb> good evening to all
<kwwii> hi
<Riddell> naughty council members, they'll just have to review the logs
<dthacker-laptop> hello all
<Tm_T> Riddell: heh
<Tm_T> look, I'm here o/
<Tm_T> not happening too often, I'd say
<Riddell> So, a mostly empty agenda https://wiki.kubuntu.org/Kubuntu/Meetings
<Riddell> any comments on RC 2?
<Tm_T> KDE4 that is?
<Riddell> ye
<Riddell> yes
<Tm_T> shame I can't help with that, living with svn :(
<Riddell> someone on the mailing list was saying it broke his ~/.kde
<Riddell> which it curious
<sub[t]rnl> the plasma or kmenu bar just felt clunky to me.  Other than seemed ok.
<Riddell> sub[t]rnl: be thankful it works, which is more than rc 1 had :)
<Tm_T> my svn build seems to use software acceleration, don't know why
<sub[t]rnl> hehe, agreed
<Tm_T> only issue I can think of right now
<Riddell> possibly good news (except for our sysadmins) was that the Kubuntu live CD managed to max out the data centre link for the websites
<Riddell> appologies to the sysadmins for that and thanks for working around it
<dthacker-laptop> hehe.
<kwwii> Riddell: I'll do a test install tomorrow, if anything is borken I seem to be the one it breaks on
<Riddell> ok, anyone here for membership?
<ardchoille> I am
<Riddell> ardchoille: could you introduce yourself
<felipe> woohoo!
<ardchoille> Hi, my name is Ian MacGregor and I use the nick ardchoille online. My wiki page is at: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Ardchoille2
<ardchoille> I have been using, and loving, Ubuntu/Kubuntu for years.
<genii> Will kde4 install to .kde if none yet or .kde4 ?
<Riddell> ardchoille: what have you contributed to Kubuntu?
<ardchoille> For the past few years I have volunteered my time in #ubuntu, #kubuntu, and other channels, and have also provided support on the Ubuntu Forums, submitted bugs to launchpad, and edited the Ubuntu Wiki and Ubuntu Documentation.
<ardchoille> I spend a lot of time promoting Ubuntu/Kubuntu and have helped many people in my area switch to Ubuntu since 2003.
<Riddell> "helped over 200 people and businesses in my area switch" that's a lot
<Riddell> how do you go about that?
 * sub[t]rnl cheers
<ardchoille> I enjoy it
<ardchoille> Mainly through friends who help spread the word
<dthacker-laptop> ardchoille helps a lot in #kubuntu, including me more than once.
<ardchoille> Word of mouth is a powerful advertising tool
<kwwii> anyone else know ardchoille here?
<tomaw> I do
<sub[t]rnl> I do
<Tm_T> I do well
<felipe> meee!
<Tm_T> ardchoille <3
<X314> I do
<stdin> me too :)
<cheguevara> i do
<felipe> lol
<ardchoille> omg
<sub[t]rnl> He's extremely helpful, and always goes out of his way to help people
<genii> I do
<stdin> he helps take the load off my shoulders :p
<sub[t]rnl> hehe
<Tm_T> and mine
<Riddell> stdin: which load?
<stdin> Riddell: support in #kubuntu
<genii> Very helpful and civil to even the most frustrating users
<stdin> Riddell: and helps keep it "on topic"
<tomaw> He is indeed very patient
<Riddell> keeping #kubuntu on topic?  now that is impressive :)
<Tm_T> I can only agree with brothers here
<Riddell> ardchoille: what plans for the future?
<Riddell> ardchoille: you mention you want to help with packaging?
<ardchoille> I plan to continue providing the help and support for Ubuntu/Kubuntu that I have provided for the past few years. Eventually I would like to become a packager and I evetually would like to set up a LoCo Team for Seattle, WA..
<ardchoille> Riddell: ye, very much so
<Riddell> ardchoille: planning to come to the Kubuntu Tutorials Day?
<ardchoille> Riddell: Indeed :)
<Riddell> kwwii: any more questions?
<nixternal> whoa, didn't know there was a meeting going on :)
<nosrednaekim> me neither...
<Tm_T> nixternal: muh
<Riddell> ah, nixternal, we have quorum
<Riddell> nixternal: any questions for ardchoille
<kwwii> Riddell: nope, seems like enough info for me
<nixternal> hrmm
<kwwii> give him a minute to read the log
<stdin> I'm sure you can think of something nixternal :)
<nixternal> reading wiki page really quick
<dthacker-laptop> "what is the flying time of an unladen European swallow....?"
<ardchoille> hehe
<ardchoille> dthacker-laptop: with or without a coconut in tow?
<dthacker-laptop> :)
<Riddell> nixternal: you could ask him why a person of the Clan MacGregor would use the sassenach spelling of Iain :)
<nixternal> lol
<nixternal> I just read that on his wiki page :p
<nixternal> ardchoille: don't know if this was asked, I didn't see it...what are your future goals with Kubuntu? What does the Kubuntu Membership mean to you?
 * nixternal smells pasta
<Tm_T> nixternal: it's my shoes
<ardchoille> I plan to continue providing the help and support for Ubuntu/Kubuntu that I have provided for the past few years. Eventually I would like to become a packager and set up a LoCo Team for Seattle, WA..
<nixternal> you have garlicy feet
<ardchoille> Ubuntu membership mens, to me, that I feel recognised for my contributions and feel "a part" of the community
<nixternal> would your #1 goal for a loco in seattle to storm camp lake washington and debug that area? :D
<ardchoille> I wish!
<nixternal> hey, I at least mooned camp gates :)
<nixternal> have you done any packaging yet?
<ardchoille> nixternal: I feel it's better to conquer them with good software ;)
<felipe> yes, you kmoon them
<ardchoille> nixternal: I have created a few packages for my own use, but I would like to learn proper packaging for the repos
<ardchoille> felipe: lol
<nixternal> how about helping with bug triage? how familiar are you, or better yet, how comfortable are you with triaging bugs?
<ardchoille> nixternal: That's another thing I wish to learn, haven't done it yet.
<Riddell> time to vote
 * ardchoille votes for self
<Riddell> +1 from me for lots of supporters and number of converts
<Tm_T> :)
<Riddell> kwwii? nixternal?
<nixternal> one sec, running a grep and word count :p
<mhb> hang around in #kubuntu-devel more so we get to know you better :o)
<kwwii> +1
<ardchoille> Will do
<nixternal> hahaha, forget that, locked up the server
<nixternal> +1 from me as well
<cheguevara> lol
<Tm_T> nixternal: locked yourself in I hope
<Riddell> welcome to membership of Ubuntu and Kubuntu ardchoille
<nixternal> 5232
<Tm_T> ardchoille: yay!
<sub[t]rnl> Grats ardchoille
<sub[t]rnl> :D
<ardchoille> Riddell: W00T! Thanks
<cheguevara> congrats
<Tm_T> Riddell: poke me when it's my turn if ever
<Riddell> any more memberships?
<X314> congratuwelldone ardchoille !
<claydoh> congrats ardchoille!
<ardchoille> And thank you all for your wonderful support :)
<Riddell> Tm_T: go go
<nixternal> that's pretty good! good job and congrats ardchoille, welcome to our small, yet disfunctional, however very loving, family! :p
 * nosrednaekim notes that w00t is the word of the year and pats ardchoille on the back
<Tm_T> Riddell: okie
<kwwii> congrats ardchoille
<felipe> congrats
<felipe> :)
<nixternal> nosrednaekim: you seen that on MSNBC or whatever? w00t is the word of the year...how silly
<mhb> congratulations
 * Tm_T is Jussi Kekkonen, https://launchpad.net/~tmt
 * genii hands ardchoille a congratulatory coffee
<Tm_T> and want to become Kubuntu member
<nixternal> what?!? another person who I thought was already a member
<nixternal> -1 :p
<Tm_T> yup
<nosrednaekim> nixternal: even worse....slashdot
<nixternal> keep on rockin' homeskillet
<Riddell> Tm_T: do you have a wiki page?
<nixternal> and LP page please
<Tm_T> Riddell: I do, sorry I'm in a bit mess currently here, in a moment
<cheguevara> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/JussiKekkonen
<kwwii> Tm_T: although i've talked to you quite a bit I honestly have no idea what you do :D Could you explain shortly?
<nixternal> el che to the rescue!
<Tm_T> https://launchpad.net/~tmt  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/JussiKekkonen
<Tm_T> cheguevara: :)
<cheguevara> :P
<tomaw> ardchoille: congrats :)
<Tm_T> I mostly been in irc, for support, IRC op, upstream testing, random develop ranting, advocating, converting etc etc
<ardchoille> tomaw: ty :)
<nixternal> No karma has yet been assigned to Jussi Kekkonen. Karma is updated daily    :(
<Tm_T> also our loco faces
<Riddell> Tm_T: what activities does the Finnish Loco team do?
<nixternal> Tm_T: time to start rockin' on some triage homey...you been around long enough :)
<genii> triage sounds interesting
<nixternal> ya, it is something I haven't done in a while myself
<X314> generall nonrelated to Tm_T question. is there a way to contribute to the comunity if your a rubbishcan at coding and cant really draw artworks and such?
<Tm_T> nixternal: should, somehow I fail to do so except with upstream :p
<nixternal> X314: most definitely, I am living proof...all I do is poke fun :)
<cheguevara> lol
<nosrednaekim> X314: do user support.
<Tm_T> Riddell: translation, support, spreading (including our parliament) and lots
<nixternal> #kubuntu definitely needs as much help as possible
<Riddell> does anyone have testimonies for Tm_T?
<ardchoille> I do
 * cheguevara been around irc to little
<nixternal> oh man, don't tell me where are Tm_T's only friends :)
<X314> nosrednaekim: well.. helping someone else you'd kinda have to know what you yourself are doing..
 * dthacker-laptop notes that he is behind on the monthly report, but is on the mailing list and is logging the devel channel, so he will start populating this weekend. I'll read the logs tommorrow between tutorials. cya
<ardchoille> I have been in #kubuntu for a long while and have seen Tm_T help others. And has helped me many times.
<nixternal> Tm_T: MOTU plans at all? How can you help Kubuntu to be the best?
<stdin> he's always helping out in #kubuntu and is the boss in -offtopic
<nixternal> no doubt
<sub[t]rnl> I can second Tm_T's helping
<kwwii> I think that bug triaging is actually something that almost anyone could do with a little bit of time and experience asking the right questions to the right people
<X314> I have seen Tm_T help people and think he has helped me with some minor issues.. though I am a bit of a new one around here
<Riddell> Tm_T: how active is #kubuntu-offtopic?
<nixternal> Riddell: annoyingly active :)
<Tm_T> Riddell: sometimes very, but quite similar to #kubuntu
<kwwii> indeed, all of my contact with him has been productive and a joy to talk to
<stdin> sporadic activity
<Tm_T> nixternal: plans, though failed thus far, I am trying to see Kubuntu as the best for average joe, thats why I like me being between users, upstream and Kubuntu as distro
<genii> Yes, sporadic
<X314> well.. its more freetalk but very often support talk in -offtopic i would say
<Riddell> that's pretty much the point of it
<nixternal> Tm_T: how have they failed? how can we help you to not fail with your future plans? and how can you help us not fail with our future plans?
<genii> X314: definitely
<Tm_T> my main plans though is in Kids Office, but thats long future (and goes with Kubuntu well)
<X314> genii: more coffee too.
 * genii puts another pot of coffee on
<Tm_T> nixternal: my health is bit issue, so I don't always can do much myself, but always like to help where can
<nixternal> and I can attest to you helping out a ton, so that is always good :)
<Tm_T> nixternal: also I afraid to take responsibility because of that
<nixternal> plus, if I didn't ask some tough questions, then I wouldn't look good :)
<Tm_T> haha
<Tm_T> true
<Riddell> kwwii, nixternal, shall we vote?
<kwwii> sure
<Riddell> +1 for testimony on user support
<ardchoille> +1 from me for active support
<Riddell> but lets get that karma up! :)
<nixternal> Tm_T: very much understood, but seeing as you have made us aware of your condition, I think you should feel safe taking on some responsibility, and let us help you with it and not worry about it so much...you have other things to worry about :)
<kwwii> +1 from me, he's a nice guy :-)
<nixternal> oh definitely +1 from me... Tm_T has been rockin' for quite a bit
<Tm_T> nixternal: thanks, appreciate it :)
<Riddell> congratulations, and welcome Tm_T
<cheguevara> congrats Tm_T
<ardchoille> congrats Tm_T
<Riddell> any other business?
<Tm_T> Riddell: thanks, as I have said ofren, karma should get raised from irc too :-P
 * stdin w00ts for Tm_T
<nixternal> congrats Tm_T and welcome to the disfunctional family, well you know the rest, you been around long enough :p
<nixternal> w00t :)
<Tm_T> nixternal: indeed
<genii> Riddell: I dunno if qualifies as business but is anything being done about a gui web control panel to replace webmin? If so what stage at now, etc
<nixternal> anymore members? I have to head to that eternal place of education :)
<Riddell> genii: -> #ubuntu-server
<Tm_T> nixternal: sleep?
<genii> Riddell: Ah, OK thanks
<Tm_T> nixternal: or uni
<Riddell> please pimp up Kubuntu Tutorials Day wherever you can
<nixternal> no, uni unfortunately
<nixternal> Riddell: I will be around all day for the tutorials day btw...no class tomorrow :)
<claydoh> congrats Tm_T!
<Riddell> it all kicks off in 15.5 hours time in #kubuntu-devel https://wiki.kubuntu.org/KubuntuTutorialsDay
<nixternal> plus, i am doing a podcast interview for linux links tomorrow
<genii> This may sound dumb but can someone enlighten me to "Kubuntu Tutorial Days"
<nixternal> genii: check out Riddell's link
<nixternal> OK, can I go to school now?
<genii> nixternal: Will do
<Tm_T> nixternal: that last part I might be help, if I'm online then
<Riddell> nixternal: yes, we're done I think
<Riddell> happy learning
<txwikinger> have fun nixternal ;)
<Riddell> good night all, thanks for coming
<Tm_T> nixternal: as it's my "homefield"
<nixternal> groovy...if you need anything for tomorrow, hightlight/msg me and I will work on it tonight when I get back from class
<Tm_T> Riddell: thanks to you, and nighty night, see the dragons!
<Riddell> next meeting a week on saturday I believe
<nixternal> see ya'll later! and congrats once again to ardchoille and Tm_T
<ardchoille> Riddell: Now that I'm a member, how do I apply for the irc cloak?
<X314> nixternal: so if I just hang around long enough and be a yolly good person and do whatever I can to helpout with whatever I can I might become a member too ish?
<kwwii> Riddell: I will be on a plane to america on that day
<ardchoille> nixternal: Thank you :)
<nixternal> X314: of course!
 * nixternal out for real this time :)
<ped> X314: and get some karma up on LP. :) That helps too. (if you don't already have some)
<stdin> ardchoille: #ubuntu-ops and ask :)
<ardchoille> Ah, thanks
<txwikinger> ardchoille: there is a wiki page with instructions https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IrcTeam/Cloaks
<X314> ped: this is going to sound silly. but LP?
<Tm_T> X314: launchpad, our bugtracker and more
<X314> Tm_T: right. o: I'm still getting into all of these acronyms everywhere
<Tm_T> heh
<ped> X314: LP is of the few I understand myself. ;) Than again, I'm not trying to get kubu membership (not yet). :)
<ped> X314: otherwise I'm just as confused as you
<X314> ped: well it feels good that someone is ^^
<ardchoille> Thank you all :)
#ubuntu-meeting 2007-12-13
* ubotu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 13 Dec 14:00 UTC: Desktop Team Development | 18 Dec 15:00 UTC: Server Team meeting | 20 Dec 14:00 UTC: Desktop Team Development
<aRyn> @schedule
<ubotu> Schedule for Etc/UTC: 13 Dec 14:00: Desktop Team Development | 18 Dec 15:00: Server Team meeting | 20 Dec 14:00: Desktop Team Development
<aRyn> @schedule london
<ubotu> Schedule for Europe/London: 13 Dec 14:00: Desktop Team Development | 18 Dec 15:00: Server Team meeting | 20 Dec 14:00: Desktop Team Development
<aRyn> hm, what's about the today's meeting?
<aRyn> it's mssing
<aRyn> @logs
<aRyn> @log
<aRyn> already updated?^^
<riri> hi
<riri> is meeting being held ?
 * highvoltage just got home from many, many hours of driving *shew*
* ubotu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Current meeting: Desktop Team Development Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 18 Dec 15:00 UTC: Server Team meeting | 20 Dec 14:00 UTC: Desktop Team Development
<MacSlow> kwwii, hey... go and have holidays! :)
<kwwii> hi MacSlow
<kwwii> MacSlow: just read your email, nifty stuff
<kwwii> cimi posted a pic of the new murrine transparency stuff - and a couple of weeks ago he said it was not possible :p
<Riddell> hi
<tedg> 'morning
 * Keybuk wonders whether you can get RSI in the shoulders from doing push-ups
<MacSlow> Keybuk, no only sore muscles
<mvo> hello
<pitti> hi
<Keybuk> ok, let's get started
<Keybuk> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopTeam/DevelopmentMeeting/2007-12-13
<Keybuk> first item, outstanding actions from last meeting
<Keybuk> kwwii to complete hardy-theme and hardy-icon-theme after decision at London presentation
<Keybuk> is that still outstanding?
<kwwii> Keybuk: almost finished with those specs (and other associated information)
<Keybuk> kwwii: you expect to have them completed by next week?
<kwwii> they'll be finished and online by tomorrow at the latest
<Keybuk> ok
<Keybuk> MacSlow to complete drafting of hardy-desktop-effects and other assigned specs expected by the weekend
<Keybuk> likewise, how are they going and when do you expect to be finished?
<MacSlow> Keybuk, yes by the weekend
<Keybuk> ok
<Keybuk> please all briefly look through the activity reports
<Keybuk> are there any issues anyone would like to discuss?
<Keybuk> or points anyone would like to raise?
<kwwii> Keybuk: the only oustanding issue I have is that the art.ubuntu.com site is still not up
<Keybuk> kwwii: do you have an RT# for that?
<kwwii> Keybuk: I will poke mr nuzum and see if he does, I'll email any info to you
<pitti> mvo: how does the dapper->gutsy upgrade look ATM? any outstanding major issues? we still need to fix hal&dbus, right?
<tedg> I have a question: How did the London presentation go?  Are we still black and orange or brown and off-brown? :)
<mvo> pitti: the outstanding major issue is hal&dbus currently
<kwwii> tedg: the presentation went well, we are still deciding on quite a few of the issues
<Keybuk> kwwii: please do, I can't chase without more details
<Keybuk> I'll give that to you as an action
<kwwii> great
<mvo> pitti: other than this we mostly look good for ubuntu-desktop -> ubuntu-desktop. I haven't tested a lot more yet :/
<kwwii> tedg: with those specs that I have to finish is a lot of other information which came from the results of the presentation meeting
<MacSlow> kwwii, sorry I could not finish the GL/gtk+ stuff earlier... otherwise I could have giving one more "gun" :)
<pitti> mvo: how difficult is it to set up that 'upgrade vs. clean install' diff? would be great to have data early
<tedg> kwwii: Cool.  Any spoilers?
<kwwii> MacSlow: no worries
<kwwii> tedg: the biggest decision for Hardy is that the themeing will not change completely with this release
<mvo> pitti: generating the "clan install" state is something I currently don't know how to do automatically
<kwwii> we decided that the LTS is the end of the cycle and not the start of the new one
<pitti> mvo: how do you create the clean gutsy install for gutsy->hardy upgrade tests? or the dapper one?
<tedg> kwwii: Ah, makes sense.  You'll disappoint Slashdot ;)
<mvo> pitti: I use jeos-builder and then install additional stuff. I would prefer to diff against ubqiuity though, but for the purpose of the test I could juse jeos-builder for hardy I think
<pitti> mvo: unfortunately this is not something I could help with fakechroots, since they aren't powerful enough for maintainer scripts
<MacSlow> kwwii, guess that's the reason why we're also giving more time for the face-browser... conservative changes are prefered for LTS
<Keybuk> ok
<kwwii> MacSlow: well, if you have to support something for a long time it does make sense to not add crack to that release :-)
<Keybuk> merges!
<pitti> mvo: ah, running an install in qemu would be an option, I guess :) (that's what jeos-builder does, isn't it?)
<mvo> pitti: yeah, it needs to run inside kvm :)
<Keybuk> http://merges.ubuntu.com/main.html
<MacSlow> kwwii, I like crack ;)
<Keybuk> today is the merge freeze
<Keybuk> there are still 26 outstanding merges and 60 updated ones
<pitti> the platform team distributed the remaining merges amongst them, btw
<mvo> pitti: jeos-builder uses debootstrap and some scripting magic, its not the same as a d-i install (but it should be close enough)
<MacSlow> kwwii, the visual kind... at least to some extend
<Keybuk> pitti: they did, that's nice to know :-)
<mvo> apt, python-apt, synaptic will be ready soon
<Keybuk> are there any (*cough* apt) that are best dealt with by our team? :)
<pitti> mvo: right; livefs build is just bootstrap plus apt-get install ubuntu-desktop, too (ish)
<kwwii> MacSlow: hehe, I like looking at butts too :p
<pitti> synaptic
<pitti> perhaps
<pitti> (although lool TIL)
 * mvo takes apt, python-apt, synptic
<Keybuk> ok, that's good news
<MacSlow> hi seb128
<mvo> I can do acpid too if required
<Keybuk> we're actually closer now then I think we've ever been in history ;)
<seb128> hey
<Keybuk> we usually end up with about 50-80 remaining
<pitti> the updated ones will always be there, I guess, but at least I will continue to update hal, hal-info, debhelper, etc.
<Riddell> digikam is waiting on a new upstream
<seb128> closer than what?
<mvo> hotkey-setup does not need a merge, our version is ahead of debian (it would only be cosmetic)
<seb128> sorry to be late
<pitti> hey seb128
<seb128> are you discussing merges?
<pitti> yes
<pitti>     pitti| the platform team distributed the remaining merges amongst them, btw
<pitti> seb128: ^ that's what you told me, right?
<seb128> you are aware that the remaining ones have mostly been distribued during the platform team meeting yesterday?
<mvo> python-distutils-extra is in debian with a ubuntu version number :) that is why it shows up in the merges, its not required to merge
<seb128> pitti: yes
<pitti> seb128: yep; mvo is taking apt/synaptic & friends, though
<pitti> mvo: discussed with Scott already, we'll just ignore it for now
<Keybuk> ok
<Keybuk> pitti: Ptrace protection
<seb128> pitti: Colin said that apt was work in progress and we let it to mvo
<pitti> not sure how many of you read the debian-devel@ thread or the PolicyKitINtegration spec
<pitti> summary: we want a way to disable ptrace()/LD_PRELOAD for some programs which deal with passwords or other secrets
<pitti> so that a local trojan can't gdb them and grab the passwords, etc.
<pitti> admittedly this is a very strong attack scenario already (local trojan), and from there it's relatively easy to get the user's password by spoofing
<pitti> but some weeks ago I thought about ways how to at least disable the 'quiet' password stealing (without extra spoofed dialogs, etc.)
<pitti> so, debian doesn't like the 'setgid noptrace' trick, since it's too much of a hack
<pitti> so I wonder whether we should go the kernel patch route (cleaner design, but needs kernel change), or give up on the idea at all
<pitti> keeping a delta like the 'setgid ptrace' in ubuntu forever is a pretty high investment, so I wouldn't like to do that
<Keybuk> have we done any investigation to the kernel route?
<Keybuk> do we know how possible/difficult it is?
<pitti> possible: yes, difficult: no idea yet
<Keybuk> it sounds like this needs to be investigated a little then
<pitti> (discussion is still pretty fresh)
<Keybuk> doko: don't suppose you know much about ELF headers and respecting them in the kernel
<doko> Keybuk: no, not yet my topic. sorry
<pitti> Keybuk: so you at least don't oppose to the "do not do it in Ubuntu only" attitude?
<Keybuk> right, it's a large delta for a smaller gain
<pitti> I agree; the spec says to do it, though, so I at least want consent that we might change that
<pitti> it's not an essential part of it, just a little better proactive security
<pitti> so I'll talk to the kernel guys and investigate whether it's feasible for hardy
<pitti> if yes, we'll do it and I modify the spec accordingly; if not, we'll just forget it
<pitti> ok?
<Keybuk> ok
<Keybuk> yup
<Keybuk> if you're happy with that
<pitti> I am
<Keybuk> ok
<Keybuk> any other business?
<seb128> Keybuk: I was late, but while discussing themes, is ubuntulooks being superseded or is anybody going to work on it?
<Keybuk> not for hardy
<seb128> DOH
<seb128> ok
<seb128> I guess I should try to have a look at the bugs again then
<seb128> there is quite some issues with it apparently
<seb128> joy
<Keybuk> not being superseded in hardy, that is
<Keybuk> what are the known issues? do you have a quick summary of them?
<seb128> nothing handy right now, no, I commit some patches every now and then
<seb128> leaks, bugs, crasher with firefox3, no way to select theme colors as with other modern themes, etc
<Keybuk> we can certainly find ways to help you with known issues
<seb128> I was sort of expecting to have a better quality or maintained theme for the lts
<Keybuk> the decision was that a new theme was too major for an LTS
<Keybuk> and that an LTS should be the final opus of the theme
<seb128> ok, will do a summary of things that would be nice to fix and let you know
<Keybuk> with the new one started for LTS+1 and achieving perfection by the next LTS
<Keybuk> ok
<Keybuk> thanks
<Keybuk> KristianL: around?
<KristianL> yup
<Keybuk> sorry for grabbing you last
<MacSlow> hi KristianL
<KristianL> no worries, and hi MacSlow
<Keybuk> for those that don't know, Kristian is working on a compiz plugin for us from an idea by one of the Canonical staff
<Keybuk> mvo, MacSlow: have you had chance to play with the plugin yet?  Any feedback?
<seb128> what is the plugin doing?
<MacSlow> Keybuk, no but still on my todo for today
<KristianL> same as miniwin tried to do a year++ ago; scale down windows visually. Think of download dialogs and chat windows
<mvo> I played with it a bit
<mvo> its quite nice, a nice idea
<mvo> and works already quite well (the only issue I found was that the resize outline was not scaled down as well)
<KristianL> it should be now mvo, but I still need to stick a fake window on top, since you still have access to the upper left corner of the window with the mouse.
<MacSlow> KristianL, so questions/suggestions/patches for that plugin should go your way?!
<KristianL> yeah
<Keybuk> absolutely
<Keybuk> KristianL: and please provide mvo and macslow with access to the code on as regular basis as you can
<mvo> KristianL: aha, ok. I played with it this morning
<Keybuk> (if you have it in a vcs, so much the better)
<mvo> its in git already, no?
<KristianL> it's on git already, yeah
<Keybuk> cool, thanks
<Keybuk> unless there's anything else, let's adjourn for now
 * Riddell bigs up Kubuntu Tutorials Day in half an hour in #kubuntu-devel https://wiki.kubuntu.org/KubuntuTutorialsDay
<Riddell> just for all those who want to learn how to package or use PyQt :)
<Hobbsee> come to the dark side!
<pitti> "blue" rather
<Hobbsee> perhaps kubuntu should turn black next, then.
* ubotu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 18 Dec 15:00 UTC: Server Team meeting | 20 Dec 14:00 UTC: Desktop Team Development
<aRyn> what's about the Desktop Team Development Meeting?
<stdin> aRyn: see the topic, it's on the 20th
<aRyn> hm, the calenda says totday.. from the fridge
<aRyn> on 20th is jsut the next one
<stdin> aRyn: that was at 14:00 - 15:00 UTC it's not 17:22 UTC
<stdin> s/not/now
<aRyn> yeah, i know, but there wasn
<aRyn> 't any
<stdin> my log shows there was one at 14:00
<aRyn> i joined hours before (not to miss it), but everything is empty
<pochu> There was one.
<pochu> !logs | aRyn
<ubotu> aRyn: Channel logs can be found at http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/ - Logs for LoCo channels are at http://logs.ubuntu-eu.org/freenode/
<aRyn> ok
<pochu> aRyn: see https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-desktop/2007-December/001307.html
<aRyn> thx
<PriceChild> @schedule
<ubotu> Schedule for Etc/UTC: 18 Dec 15:00: Server Team meeting | 20 Dec 14:00: Desktop Team Development
<MikeB> we will start the forums council meeting in a couple of minutes
<jdong> sounds good
<forumsmatthew> I'm here
<MikeB> howdy
<ubuntugeek> afternoon
<ubuntugeek> We ready to rock this meeting?
<MikeB> think so
<forumsmatthew> all set here
<jdong> let's do it!
 * jdong pulls up agenda :)
<MikeB> ====== Meeting Start =========
<ubuntugeek> alrght
<MikeB> jdong: Implementing a positive feedback "Reputation" system
<ubuntugeek> Sounds good! I found a really nice way to implement a thank you system into the forums
<jdong> cool
<forumsmatthew> how's it work?
<ubuntugeek> If a users finds a post useful they can give a thank you
<MikeB> great
<forumsmatthew> nice
<ubuntugeek> it will then show on the users profile, like a bean count
<jdong> ah, that's cool
<jdong> does it let you track back which post the thankyou came from?
<forumsmatthew> do you think we will need to keep an eye out for "please thank me" posts, or am I just being over cautious?
<jdong> forumsmatthew: that might happen, we should have something in our policies to discourage blatantly asking for mod-ups
<MikeB> forumsmatthew:  maybe a policy, asking for a thank you gets all thanks removed
<ubuntugeek> Yeah we can moderate the thank you's etc..
<forumsmatthew> MikeB, ooh. I like that
<ubuntugeek> Users can't thank twice
<ubuntugeek> Option to not allow users to thank their own post
<ubuntugeek> Guests don't see 'thanks' button
<ubuntugeek> Counts how many thanks a user gives
<ubuntugeek> Counts how many thanks a post gets
<ubuntugeek> Shows how many thanks a user gave in every post of his
<ubuntugeek> Shows how many thanks a user gave in profile
<ubuntugeek> Shows how many thanks a user got
<ubuntugeek> Shows how many posts or a user are thanked
<ubuntugeek> Shows info in profile
<ubuntugeek> Search for a users thanked posts
<ubuntugeek> Search for all thanked posts
<ubuntugeek> Administrator can remove all Thanks from a single post
<ubuntugeek> Users can remove their own Thanks
<ubuntugeek> Turn on and off hack totally
<ubuntugeek> Turn on and off hack for only some forums
<ubuntugeek> Option to turn off hack for all but the first post of a thread
<ubuntugeek> Option to turn off hack for all but the first post of a thread in specific forums
<ubuntugeek> Option to turn off hack view of date for specific or all forums
<ubuntugeek> Option to add to post count when someone clicks 'thanks'.
<ubuntugeek> Option to give a user who receives thanks reputation points.
<forumsmatthew> wow!
<jdong> that's impressive
<ubuntugeek> :) I think our users will like it since the topic has been coming up recently more and more
<ubuntugeek> so i am +1 on this
<forumsmatthew> I agree
<forumsmatthew> +1
<forumsmatthew> let's try it out
<MikeB> this sounds great, +1
<ubuntugeek> Yep, if it fails we simply turn it off
<forumsmatthew> (new toy...making me giddy)
<ubuntugeek> lol
<jdong> +1
<MikeB> christmas is early
<forumsmatthew> either that or it's the cold medicint
<forumsmatthew> medicine
<ubuntugeek> good deal
<MikeB> anything else, or should we move on?
<ubuntugeek> Lets move on
<jdong> move on
<forumsmatthew> move on
<MikeB> jdong: Damage control mechanisms. Ways that staff/admin can trigger more moderation power
<ubuntugeek> I'd like some more information on this one
<jdong> well it would be for emergencies like a large incoming spam attack....
<jdong> whether we can limit/moderate registrations, posts by new users....
<jdong> maybe have a way for staff to ban a certain IP from registering
<ubuntugeek> Ah gotcha, so like a emergency type account if a admin isnt around?
<jdong> right
<jdong> if we recall from before, there's been cases where a kiddie has been able to fill up like 2-3 pages of junk threads
<somerville32> jdong, What about a panic button?
<jdong> and with the staff's current set of tools, there's no way even 10 staff can work together to combat it
<jdong> somerville32: something of that nature, yes
<jdong> right off the bat, more obviously, I think the "delete, and infract-ban" action should be streamlined into a one-click ordeal
<jdong> the current method feels way too tedious
<forumsmatthew> maybe if we implement a standard message so that a new one doesn't have to be entered when this is done?
<ubuntugeek> Well thats more of a work flow/application setting then a permission setting to modify registrations etc etc.
<jdong> forumsmatthew: right. If we can reduce it to clicking one button, and then a confirm button, I'd be happy.
<jdong> currently there's a form you have to fill out, plus you have to separately delete, and you can only operate one post at a time
<ubuntugeek> jdong: i see what you mean, we might be able to come up with a better workflow to address that.
<jdong> right
<ubuntugeek> I know the new version of vb is coming out which has some enhancements which might clean this method of banning up.
<jdong> but back to moderation techniques, what techniques do you all feel are the most effective for controlling a mass spam wave?
<jdong> I think being able to toggle moderation for all users under a postcount of X would be nice
<jdong> a full-board moderation would just be a bigger strain on the staff, not a relief
<forumsmatthew> that sounds useful...I wonder how much of a hack it would require
<forumsmatthew> with a major vb upgrade coming, maybe we should see what that brings with it?
<forumsmatthew> then revisit this
<jdong> agreed
<ubuntugeek> Yeah, I think there will be some features to address some of t hese concerns
<jdong> ok, then let's table this once the VB 3.7 stuff solidifies
<ubuntugeek> Sounds good
<forumsmatthew> agreed
<MikeB> sounds plannish
 * vorian makes a note
<ubuntugeek> vorian you are alive
<vorian> yeah
<forumsmatthew> next item?
<vorian> just made it home :)
<MikeB> Mike: Policy on malicious code in post and protecting users from it, and discussion of ForumContentCertification spec
<MikeB> at UDS-Boston, we had a spec talking about how to curb and correct malicious code that is posted in the forums.
<MikeB> then we had the recent outbreak of rm -rf crap
<forumsmatthew> I think malicious code should not be allowed in posts if it is obfuscated, but if given with a proper warning and is clearly written as an example, it could have a pedagogic purpose
<ubuntugeek> I don't think we are going to be able to completly remove this type of behavior.
<jdong> I'm fine with people posting potentially destructive/dangerous command for education or for a legitimate support purpose, as long as it's prefaced with a clear warning of what it does and how dangerous it may be
<ubuntugeek> jdong: agree'd
<forumsmatthew> we infract and ban trolls anyway, regardless of whether they have malicious code content, so this may be redundant
<jdong> ultimately it's the job of the reader to decide how safe something is, we can't do that for them, but we cannot tolerate deceptive descriptions of command
<jdong> s
<forumsmatthew> agreed
<ubuntugeek> If someone posts something horrible in a howto its probably already caught by the mod who approves it.
<vorian> yep
<jdong> i.e. saying "rm -rf will destroy all your data" is different than saying "rm -rf will renew your DHCP lease"
<forumsmatthew> lol
<jdong> :D
<forumsmatthew> I thought rm -rf / would fix my DRM issues
<jdong> only when executed on Cygwin :)
<ubuntugeek> In the cases where someone says rm -rf al we can do is direct the users not issues such commands and make that clear
<MikeB> forumsmatthew: it does, but Banshee will not play any more:)
<jdong> MikeB: what did the spec originally entail? I'm curious
<forumsmatthew> MikeB, lol
<MikeB> 1. a team, new team but I thought the AB team would be better, to help sort though posts and find and maybe edit the bad content
<ubuntugeek> I guess I don't see any benefits that will actually improve the processes we have in place already. The only benefit would be having that team approve howto's and not staff.
<MikeB> 2. a rep system to help users tell good  helpful posters from trolls
<jdong> I think #1 will be good if we extend that to cover not just malicious commands but also potentially risky/unsupported processes.
<ubuntugeek> We need to remember this is a forum, not a wiki.
<jdong> i.e. adding unsafe repositories, unsafe installation procedures, and so on
<PriceChild> MikeB, number 1 - like the current moderator team?
<ubuntugeek> Im not really ok with giving people permissions to change posts globally.
<MikeB> we kinda covered #2 today
<ubuntugeek> I think if we want to create a team to handle new howto's that will be fine.
<jdong> yeah, that sounds like a good idea
<MikeB> I'm good with that
<ubuntugeek> We'll have to work out the logistics, but I think our staff does a fine job at catching issues in the howto's.
<forumsmatthew> sure
<forumsmatthew> I think things are working well now
<MikeB> ubuntugeek: I agree
<jdong> I also think we need some formal guidelines about howto's -- ones involving unsupported procedures should carry (1) A disclaimer, preferably centralized in the official wiki (2) A contact person to consult for troubles arising from the howto
<ubuntugeek> forumsmatthew: I agree, if its a staffing man power issue we can recruit new staff.
<forumsmatthew> ubuntugeek, that's what I was thinking
<forumsmatthew> no need for a new process, another detail
<ubuntugeek> So lets do this
<ubuntugeek> Recruit some new staff (5-6) should be a good number we haven't recuited in sometime now. We'll do it the same way we always have. Secondly, we can create a guideline/ruleset for posting new howto's.
<forumsmatthew> that seems reasonable
<MikeB> sounds good to me
 * PriceChild feels evil and tasks the new recruits to audit the entire tips and tricks subforum
<ubuntugeek> +1 from me
<MikeB> +1
<forumsmatthew> +1
<jdong> +1
<vorian> lol
<forumsmatthew> PriceChild is in charge of tasking the new recruits
<jdong> lol
<ubuntugeek> great! who wishes' to write up the guidelines rules
<vorian> ubuntugeek, how soon would you like to have it?
<ubuntugeek> I'd say within a week or so sounds reasonable.
<ubuntugeek> Or write up can be voted on for approval at the next FC meeting.
<ubuntugeek> either way.
<vorian> I can do it then, if no one else want to :)
<MikeB> vorian: go for it:)
<vorian> kk
<jdong> vorian: do it on the wiki and I'd be glad to pitch in too
<vorian> sounds good jdong
<vorian> thanks :)
<jdong> I just don't have the free time this week and next week to take responsibility for it :)
<ubuntugeek> Sounds good, write it up and put a reference on the wiki we'll discuss the draft at the next FC meeting or sooner if need be
<ubuntugeek> MikeBasinger
<ubuntugeek> Implementing the Ubuntu membership approval by the Forums Council
<ubuntugeek> MikeB: you got the floor on this one, give us the low down
<MikeB> the CC is wanting the different council to start approving members
<ubuntugeek> What will the procedure be?
<MikeB> since the FC has been going for a year next month, I think we are ready to start
<forumsmatthew> Do we write our own procedure for this?
<MikeB> it would be the same as people do for Ubuntu Membership at the CC, sign the code of conduit, write a wiki of work done for Ubuntu
<ubuntugeek> but the CC will have the final vote correct?
<MikeB> but we would only consider members whos main body of work in the Ubuntu community has been in the forums
<forumsmatthew> primarily staff, but not limited to that?
<PriceChild> ubuntugeek, no, for example the "kubuntu council" approves members, the motu council approves members... they're trusted to know what they're doing
<jdong> ok, what is the policy for people who try to apply to be member via a shotgun effect?
<PriceChild> ubuntugeek, means the community council can busy themselves with more important matters instead of half a million membership applications a week
<ubuntugeek> OK, that wasn't how i understood it when we had a discussion awhile back.
<jdong> i.e. limits on how many councils they may apply to, etc etc?
<MikeB> ubuntugeek: I beleieve the CC only looks for problem the FC (or other Council) may have missed
<ubuntugeek> Right, so if we approve someone do they still need to go the CC?
<MikeB> ie: forumsjack is a great forums person, always helps, but when he is on irc he insults women
<MikeB> ubuntugeek: that needs some clearing up from the CC
<jdong> MikeB: I don't think you obfuscated my name well enough ;-)
<MikeB> jdong: BWHAHAHA!!!
<jdong> lol
<ubuntugeek> MikeB: ok lets clarify that.
<MikeB> ubuntugeek: will do
<jdong> MikeB: yeah, I'd like clarification too on the procedure for if someone has recently applied for membership via another method and been turned down
<ubuntugeek> Lets get the details on that and discuss at the next meeting.
<forumsmatthew> ubuntugeek, +1
<MikeB> ok, there is a wiki for comments on this also
<ubuntugeek> Ok, lets get some more details outlined from the CC on this. MikeB since you are on the CC you can handle that part :)
<forumsmatthew> MikeB, do you have a link to that?
<MikeB> ubuntugeek: ok:)
<MikeB> next?
<ubuntugeek> I think its a great idea and hopefully we can move forward.
<jdong> yeah, I look forward to it
<forumsmatthew> +1
<ubuntugeek> I think we need to have some forum procedures in place first.
<jdong> ubuntugeek: do you want to talk forum procedures for it now, or when we know the CC procedure?
<jdong> (it's pretty independent)
<ubuntugeek> The user should be really active on the forums for one.
<vorian> what about membership for staffers?
<ubuntugeek> No just needed to rmable :)
<ubuntugeek> staffers are already by default members if they wish
<jdong> ok, so we need an application process and a set of criteria :)
<ubuntugeek> jdong: we can do it next meeting when we get more details. I make a note on the wiki with my thoughts.
<ubuntugeek> MikeBasinger
<ubuntugeek> Ubuntu teams members as mods in their area
<jdong> ok, cool, again, let's put this up on the wiki so we can come in prepared with preforumlated ideas/proposals
<ubuntugeek> agreed.
<jdong> MikeB: what would be the nature of the reasons they want mod access?
<MikeB> we got a couple of request from Ubuntu team member is that could mod their team area in the forum
<ubuntugeek> MikeB: I dont understand the request to be honest.
<jdong> I'd be readily willing to give them sticking/moving type privs
<forumsmatthew> what teams?
<vorian> I thought we were already kind of doing that
<MikeB> we got one request on the FC mailing
<jdong> but editing, infracting, locking, I'm more uncomfortable about
<forumsmatthew> loco leaders have mod privileges in their areas...
<MikeB> and the MOTUs wants a mod in the packaging forum, mostly to post stickies
<vorian> jdong is a MOTU
<forumsmatthew> okay, I remember seeing that on the mailing list
<ubuntugeek> MikeB: thats fine we can do that. I think giving someone mod acesss to a already existing team with already existing leaders will causes problems though.
<forumsmatthew> jdong offered to do that when asked, if I recall correctly
<MikeB> jdong: Ram-Man, Man-E-Faces?
<jdong> :)
<jdong> ok, for sticking/unsticking, is the report post mechanism not fast enough?
<jdong> I think we respond to those pretty instantaneously
<PriceChild> Have they tried? :/
<ubuntugeek> Jdong: yeah i kinda feel the same way on that.
<forumsmatthew> jdong, +1
<ubuntugeek> I don't think just because someone is a member they should be a mod on a team.
<jdong> I mean, if they demonstrated "I requested this sticked and 2 days later, nothing", then let's revisit this
<jdong> otherwise, I think report posts is the correct solution
<ubuntugeek> jdong: +1
 * vorian nods
<forumsmatthew> +1, let's give the current system a chance before making changes
<MikeB> ok
<MikeB> +1
<ubuntugeek> good deal!
<ubuntugeek> Anything else?
<MikeB> none here
<jdong> nope
<forumsmatthew> nothing from me
<ubuntugeek> Shall we reschedule for the same day/time next month?
<ubuntugeek> since we are all here we can get that out of the way
<PriceChild> Kiwi?
<MikeB> we should find a time good for Kiwi
<forumsmatthew> January 13th is a Sunday, fine with me, but were you thinking of the second Thursday?
<forumsmatthew> It would be nice if Kiwi could make it
<jdong> my schedule should be extremely open next month, let's find a time that kiwi can make it
<ubuntugeek> Ok i'll email the FC list and get times.
<forumsmatthew> sounds good
<ubuntugeek> vorian i'll let you know what we come up with
<MikeB> forumsmatthew: feel better
<forumsmatthew> MikeB, thanks!
<ubuntugeek> You sick matthew?
<forumsmatthew> I'm off for some sleep, before the cold meds wear off
<forumsmatthew> Yeah, flu
<jdong> aww take care, drink your fluids, and so on
<ubuntugeek> Oh man.. go to bed..
<forumsmatthew> That's why I couldn't think of a good troll this month
<ubuntugeek> hah
<ubuntugeek> there is always next month
<forumsmatthew> lol
<ubuntugeek> Take care everyone..
<forumsmatthew> 'night, all!
<jdong> bye
<MikeB> night
<MikeB> ===== Meeting End =====
#ubuntu-meeting 2007-12-15
<theunixgeek> When's the next meeting
<theunixgeek> ?
<pochu> @now
<ubotu> Current time in Etc/UTC: December 15 2007, 16:40:29 - Next meeting: Server Team meeting in 2 days
<theunixgeek> thank you
<imbrandon> @now
<ubotu> Current time in Etc/UTC: December 15 2007, 21:00:21 - Next meeting: Server Team meeting in 2 days
<nixternal> @later
<nixternal> :p
<imbrandon> DktrKranz , LaserJock , ummm
<imbrandon> whoelse we need ?
<imbrandon> heya nixternal
<DktrKranz> themuso and jdong
<nixternal> wasabi...impromptu meeting?
<imbrandon> nixternal: well kinda, we dident put it on the fridge but yea
<imbrandon> afk one sec, ping me when all showup
<somerville32> What meeting is this?
<norsetto> the 3 of the Apocalypse
<DktrKranz> wasn't is about some Sergio Leone's spaghetti western?
<DktrKranz> s/is/it/
<norsetto> yes
<DktrKranz> I've seen them too many times I'dont even remember
<norsetto> have you been cleaning the u-u-s queue recently? Seems to be getting back to a reasonable size again
<DktrKranz> A couple of bugs, yes
<norsetto> tell Mario that if he requests sponsoring for another desktop/icon file I'm personally going to find him in his house and burn it down
<DktrKranz> LOL, why?
<norsetto> its about time he starts doing something  ... hmmmm ... with more meat in it
<somerville32> Mario who?
<DktrKranz> norsetto, time for him to do something more "useful"
<TheMuso> Sorry I'm late guys.
<DktrKranz> Not at all :)
<somerville32> lol
<imbrandon> ok, TheMuso jdong DktrKranz  , how does this look https://wiki.ubuntu.com/StableReleaseUpdates/imbrandon
<DktrKranz> we've just finished and uploaded almost everything
<norsetto> well ... its not that what he did was not useful, at least it was for him, but after the 256785th one it gets on my nerves
<DktrKranz> :P
<imbrandon> ok shhhhh
<imbrandon> please :) heh lets do the stuff at hand for the SRU team then we'll chit-chat :)
<imbrandon> TheMuso: no worries :)
<jdong> imbrandon: looking...
<TheMuso> looking
 * DktrKranz looks
<imbrandon> basicly the changes i made were to 1) wipe out the old universe update proceedure and 2) make 2 amendments for universe , otherwise its exactly the same as main
 * norsetto sleeps
<TheMuso> imbrandon: where on the page should I look
<TheMuso> ah ok
<imbrandon> TheMuso: #universe
<imbrandon> this way we can stay as close to main sru policy as possible, i realy dont see much of a reason to diverge, only we do the work vs the main sru team
<imbrandon> splitting the workload etc
<TheMuso> SOunds good.
<jdong> imbrandon: yeah, sounds good to me, too -- I like how closely it follows the -main procedure
<TheMuso> Likewise.
<DktrKranz> there's another difference
<DktrKranz> it's about verification
<imbrandon> yea really we just add a few more "when" clauses
<DktrKranz> in main, it is done by SRU verification team, in universe by two persons
<imbrandon> we can also handle the verification, they do in main also its just not updated on the page
<imbrandon> basicly verification is just bug triageing
<imbrandon> if you look
<TheMuso> How do we indicate an ack?
<TheMuso> And what gets done when theres a second ack?
<DktrKranz> so, no more "two works for me" ?
<somerville32> I'd like to propose another exception
<jdong> well the packages in -universe might not be as easy for team members to do as in main, IMO
<jdong> i.e. we should let any ordinary Joe help with verification
<jdong> but perhaps make ~motu-sru final say in whether or not we're satisfied with the verifications
<imbrandon> TheMuso: just by one of us explisitly saying ACK on the bug
<imbrandon> right
<norsetto> tags should also be differents (motu-verification needed and motu-verification-done) ?
<TheMuso> ok
<DktrKranz> norsetto, indeed
<DktrKranz> somerville32, which one?
<somerville32> DktrKranz, Packages containing purely documentation
<geser> I see that a reason for an SRU is also FTBFS. Does it only apply when old binaries exist or also when the packages FTBFS from the beginning?
<imbrandon> that seems reasonable to me
<imbrandon> geser: either
<jdong> how is ~motu-sru notified of a proposal pending approval?
<DktrKranz> is it a issue going for the NEW queue?
<DktrKranz> (for new binaries)
<jdong> does the nominate for $release functionality already ping us?
<imbrandon> DktrKranz: no shouldent be a problem
<imbrandon> jdong: huh?
<imbrandon> no ~motu-sru is subscribed to the bug
<imbrandon> e.g. email
<jdong> imbrandon: ok, so the subscription is done manually by the filer. gotcha
<DktrKranz> jdong, does that feature generate any bugmail? I was not aware of that
 * TheMuso wonders whether we have anything else to discuss.
<jdong> DktrKranz: apparently not. It would be nice if it did, though :)
<TheMuso> I need to head off for a bit soon.
<somerville32> Should I modify /imbrandon to state the doc exception?
<imbrandon> ok so addition of the doc only packages, and motu specifc tags, anything else ?
<imbrandon> somerville32: i got a lock on it
<TheMuso> IMO if it can be as close to main as possible, thats a good thing
<imbrandon> TheMuso: yup thats the goal
<jdong> sounds great to me
<DktrKranz> the only remaining issue is verification, then
<TheMuso> somerville32: Mind explaining the doc exception?
<DktrKranz> we need to diverge in some way
<imbrandon> DktrKranz: verification is done by motu-sru as i said
<somerville32> TheMuso, If a package contains only documentation, it is an exception to the SRU rational
<DktrKranz> and we need to include it as well
<TheMuso> somerville32: How so?
<imbrandon> DktrKranz: sure
<somerville32> TheMuso, ie. A package containing only documentation does not have to meet the normal rational for an SRU
<imbrandon> somerville32: we need to check on that one, it might botch translations
<TheMuso> somerville32: But what might need changing?
<TheMuso> I'm not saying I don't agree, I'd just like some good reasoning as to why we should make it an exception.
<somerville32> TheMuso, We've already had cases where we've needed to do an SRU for docs and Pitti said he had no problem approving them
<TheMuso> somerville32: What needed changing?
<somerville32> I would have to look up the changelog
<imbrandon> somerville32: all we're asking is for an example
<DktrKranz> somerville32, in that case, pitti uploaded packages straight to -updates?
<imbrandon> i would also want to make sure it dosent botch translations to a stable release too
<TheMuso> imbrandon: Agreed.
<imbrandon> DktrKranz: no
<somerville32> DktrKranz, No, it went through normal testing.
<imbrandon> DktrKranz: exceptions mean tey are eligable for a sru
<DktrKranz> ok, thanks
<imbrandon> NOTHING goes right to -updates hehe
<somerville32> Although this doesn't apply to Universe, I know that the server team wants to do an SRU for their docs
<DktrKranz> imbrandon, and it's a great thing! :)
<DktrKranz> I was worried :)
<imbrandon> laser should be here in moments
<TheMuso> ok I can't stay long though
<imbrandon> anyhow i think we pretty much have it down pat
<DarkSun88> Hi all
<imbrandon> just those few changes
<imbrandon> agreed? tag changes and those fre exceptions
<imbrandon> few*
<DktrKranz> +1
<TheMuso> +1
<somerville32> +1
<jdong> +1 :)
<nixternal> -1
<nixternal> just wanted to be different, of course +1
 * somerville32 slaps nixternal with a wet noodle
<TheMuso> nixternal: lol
<nixternal> hehe
<imbrandon> LaserJock: just to recap, i have a working doc at wiki/SRU/imbrandon , basic changes are throw out any old universe sru policy and go with mains with only 2 exceptions, more SRU worthy updates ( noted on wiki ) and motu specific tags
<DktrKranz> what about pending SRUs? do they follow old policy or should we take them into account?
<imbrandon> its unamimous if you +1 it
<DktrKranz> http://people.ubuntu.com/~ubuntu-archive/pending-sru.html
<TheMuso> DktrKranz: I'd say keep them as is
<DktrKranz> these --^
<imbrandon> DktrKranz: the pending sru's on that page are already uploaded, ones in the QUEUE on LP should be updated to follow this meetings decision
<LaserJock> imbrandon: it seems our policy really doesn't differ from Main, do we need a separate section?
<TheMuso> LaserJock: For tags and our extra exceptions.
<TheMuso> IMO
<imbrandon> LaserJock: no i'm gonna update the page so it looks better, and intergrate it with one policy and just NOTE: sections for universe
<imbrandon> after we all agree
<imbrandon> that was just how the old page did it so i quickly updated it
<imbrandon> durring the meeting
<LaserJock> imbrandon: do we really have extra exceptions?
<imbrandon> cleanup and beuitification can be done after :)
<imbrandon> LaserJock: yes
<DktrKranz> Do we keep minimum aging period? I think main does not have something like that
<imbrandon> DktrKranz: yes they do
<LaserJock> imbrandon: doesn't look like it to me
<DktrKranz> imbrandon, yes, I overlooked :)
<imbrandon> LaserJock: FTBFS, cannot install, and segfault on startup ( e.g. completely un-usable ), and documentaion only packages
<LaserJock> I think those are all SRUable in Main
<imbrandon> not currently
<imbrandon> it widens it just a tad
<somerville32> Whats written down and what actually happens is a bit different
<LaserJock> ummm
<imbrandon> e.g. not all FTBFS are regressions and such, so no not all those in main
<LaserJock> Main only says high-impact bugs
<imbrandon> right
<LaserJock> FTBFS, segfault, uninstallable in general seem high-impact
<imbrandon> not always in the eyes of the main sru team, this we are stateing them explisitly
<imbrandon> if they do fall into some overlap no loss, we just adding some verbage
<TheMuso> Ok guys, I gotta run.
<imbrandon> TheMuso: cool
 * TheMuso will leave this channel open and read later
<DktrKranz> should we cover bugs similar to malone 176435? it renders package unusable
<ubotu> Launchpad bug 176435 in twill "python-twill missing a dependency" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/176435
<DktrKranz> this one is a missing dep
<imbrandon> DktrKranz: that falls under uninstallable
<imbrandon> correct?
<LaserJock> well, I'm just worried if we have delta from Main
<DktrKranz> imbrandon, it is installable, but not usable at all
<imbrandon> DktrKranz: i would have to look closer but it seems like it would
<LaserJock> I think we should agree on the kinds of things we think should be SRU internally
<LaserJock> but I like vague language on the SRU wiki page
<LaserJock> DktrKranz: that would be a regression
<imbrandon> LaserJock: umm yea thats what the doc and meeting is about hehe, it seems we are all on the same page but imho DktrKranz needs a bit og hand holding as he is very green
<imbrandon> no offense DktrKranz :)
<DktrKranz> :)
<imbrandon> s/og/of
 * DktrKranz takes his gun and loads it with some bullets
<imbrandon> anyhow LaserJock yes there would be a delta from main but pitti has already signed off on it as "ok" and the other sru team members, i dont think the delta is that large, infatc it is very very very small compared to even what pitti proposed on the ML
<DktrKranz> indeed
<LaserJock> I was thinking we should just s/~ubuntu-sru/~motu-sru/
<LaserJock> does that not work?
<imbrandon> yes it does, but in addition to ( since universe doesnt get as much QA ) we should have these
<LaserJock> have what?
<imbrandon> the extra SRU canidate rules
<imbrandon> the only delta
<LaserJock> but they aren't
<imbrandon> but they ARE
<LaserJock> the Main SRU policy would cover those
<LaserJock> the only actual policy there is that it must be "high impact"
<LaserJock> but what that actually means is up to us
<imbrandon> LaserJock: not in the main sru teams eyes they arent, and not all of them are, we are hurting nothing by explisitly stating them if you think they overlap
<LaserJock> so why not keep it that way?
<imbrandon> plus there is no doc exception
<LaserJock> well, my concern would be that people see that as saying that you *can't* do those types of SRUs in Main
<LaserJock> which is just not true
<imbrandon> no not at all, and either way its not our problem
<imbrandon> main sru can choose to clarify too if they feel the need to
<LaserJock> but why do we need to clarify? I guess that's my question
<LaserJock> I don't really get why we need to explicitly mention those. Is it because people don't know they can?
<imbrandon> ummm i explained this 3 or 4 times already , main sru team dosent ALWAYS acept those as canidates, we are explitily saying we will
<LaserJock> hmm, I don't think we should *always* either
<LaserJock> they should all be case-by-case
<LaserJock> but in general yes, I would be all for those kinds of exceptions
<LaserJock> s/exceptions/SRUs/
<imbrandon> then whats the problem i dont get your reasoning
<LaserJock> that we'd be creating needless diff and confusing the issue
<LaserJock> the language is intentionally vague, IMO
<imbrandon> ok then all i can say at this point is its been +1'd by all , propose your only changing the team name and see what everyone thinks, i personaly think this is a important verbage cahnge
<LaserJock> well, that's what I'm trying to get at
<LaserJock> obviously people like the change, so I'm trying to understand it
<LaserJock> I'm not sure how the verbage is gonna change
<imbrandon> well they like it because it does clairify the diffrence, your looking at it from a no diff, diff is "OK" if its minimal and servers seomthing, in htis case its both
<LaserJock> well, I'm actually saying there really isn't any diff
<LaserJock> I've seen every case we're talking about as "exceptions" done in Main
<imbrandon> LaserJock: there IS, in your opinion there might not be, but not everyone will interret it the way you do so its GOOD to clarify
<LaserJock> ok, so what if we talked to ~ubuntu-sru about these and perhaps expand the examples?
<LaserJock> those are just examples, not an exhaustive list or anything
<imbrandon> what does that matter to us?
<LaserJock> because we have the same issues before us
<LaserJock> an SRU really shouldn't matter if it's in Main or Universe
<imbrandon> ugh no we dont inhaently we have very diffrent issues
<imbrandon> sure it does
 * TheMuso is back. Took less time than I thought
<LaserJock> my experience is that Main does the same kinds of SRUs that Universe does
<LaserJock> so why create diff where it doesn't really exist
<imbrandon> ugh LaserJock ok my point here is we need to decide on a policy, if later someone wants to do the legwork and see if "upstream would like to merge" sweet , i'm all for it, but it should NOT be a blocker for us
<LaserJock> imbrandon: right, I'm saying our policy is the same as Main's
<LaserJock> but you're wanting to add some more examples
<imbrandon> and i'm saying it is "alomst" and it needs to be clarified and these words added
<LaserJock> which is fine, I agree with you there
<LaserJock> alright, well whatever, it's not a biggie
<imbrandon> and if you feel main would benifet from those changes too cool, propose them to them, but why does that stop us from doing it now
<LaserJock> it doesn't
<LaserJock> they're only freaking examples :-)
<LaserJock> it's not policy
<imbrandon> well thats the thing, this IS policy
<LaserJock> well, that's what I was trying to say earlier
<imbrandon> or is going to be
<LaserJock> we should have internal polices of what we want to take
<imbrandon> ?????????
<imbrandon> i'm hearing you in circles now
<LaserJock> but the SRU wiki page shouldn't have an exhaustive list of what we'll take
<LaserJock> because then there's no point in having MOTU SRU
<LaserJock> the whole point of having the team is that these need to be decided on a case-by-case basis
<LaserJock> I'm sure there will be some high-impact bugs that we'll reject
<LaserJock> because the changes are just to invasive for us to do
<imbrandon> right if it falls into one of those categorys, its not an exasutive list it is a list of acceptable categorys
<LaserJock> right
<imbrandon> but the categorys have to be defined exastively
<imbrandon> not "examples"
<LaserJock> and I find that so trivial (and the same as Main) so I don't see why it justifies a diff
<LaserJock> no
<LaserJock> that's not true
<LaserJock> those categories are examples
<LaserJock> not exhaustive, even of types of SRU
<LaserJock> as far as I understand
<LaserJock> anyway, we can talk to Ubuntu SRU about that later
<LaserJock> this is such a trivial thing we don't need to argue over it
<imbrandon> i have no desire to talk to Ubuntu SRU about it, but feel free to, i'm here to solidify our policy
<imbrandon> my point exactly
<LaserJock> ok
<LaserJock> so my question would be, are we gonna take SRUs that would not fall in those categories or do we want to talk them over?
<imbrandon> if it dosent fall into one of those categorys , yes i think a consensus is needed, but that my 0.2c
<LaserJock> seems reasonable
<LaserJock> ok, any other diff?
<imbrandon> motu specific tags
<imbrandon> is the only other thing
<LaserJock> why do we need motu specific tags?
<imbrandon> i dident think so but the rest of the team did so i went with it, cant hurt, only makes it easier to seperate them on lp
<LaserJock> hmm, I don't really see the point
<TheMuso> imbrandon: Yes, there is the searching side of things that separates them a lot more easily.
<LaserJock> seems like added confusion
<imbrandon> because how else are we gonna find them LaserJock
<DktrKranz> mh, that's a good point, is MOTU tags really needed?
<LaserJock> you can do the same thing
<LaserJock> you can search for the tag + Universe component
<LaserJock> so we'd just have a tinyurl for that
<LaserJock> that would do the same thing as a motu-specific tag no?
<imbrandon> but is main gonna be "ok" filtering out our stuff from their searches
<LaserJock> they're gonna have to be ;-)
<LaserJock> this is the whole point of being able to do such searches
<LaserJock> you can have a tag and then filter the specific responses you want
<imbrandon> ok i have no opinion either way, either seems just as easy, so i'm +0 , yall ?
<LaserJock> I seriously doubt Ubuntu SRU can claim exclusivity to "verification-needed"
<imbrandon> heh
<LaserJock> and really, the point is for people testing
<imbrandon> yea seems eassy enough if we can also filter by component
<LaserJock> and I don't see why they'd really care what component it's in
 * TheMuso is not fussed either way
<DktrKranz> I have no problem using the same tags, but we should update our links
<imbrandon> DktrKranz: we will
<DktrKranz> and eventually ask pitti to adjust his script
<DktrKranz> I think it consider universe SRUs verified by looking at verification-motu-done
<LaserJock> DktrKranz: what would he have to adjust?
<imbrandon> DktrKranz: thats alll tech stuff that can follow policy, policy shouldnt follow tech :)
<DktrKranz> of course :)
<LaserJock> ok, so ...
<imbrandon> okies we 're going just over an hoour here, i think we're all on the same page, we just add a few exmples ( and LaserJock can poke the main sru if they want them also ) and s/ubuntu-sru/motu-sru , other than that we stuck with main policy
<LaserJock> darn, I messed everything up
<imbrandon> everyone good with that ?
<TheMuso> yep
<LaserJock> imbrandon: do you have text for the exceptions?
<DktrKranz> sure
<imbrandon> LaserJock: give me 2 seconds and i will
<LaserJock> I still don't like it but hopefully Ubuntu SRU would agree to absorb the changes
<imbrandon> FTBFS, cannot install, and segfault on startup ( e.g. completely un-usable ), Documentation only packages
<LaserJock> right, but I was actually thinking how we were gonna word the intro to those
<LaserJock> but whatever, I'll get over it ;-)
<imbrandon> ahh ummm
<LaserJock> cause I can't really see how "In addition, for Universe the following examples:"
<LaserJock> is gonna work
<LaserJock> anyway, +1 from me
<imbrandon> "In Universe ... also qualifies as high-impact-bugs " or similar
<imbrandon> i would think
<imbrandon> ... can also qualify as ...
<LaserJock> yeah
<LaserJock> I don't like the high-impact part as well though for doc-only SRUs
<LaserJock> usually they aren't high-impact, more low-rish
<imbrandon> ok so +1 from all but jdong and afaik he is afk, seems like he is outvoted either way, we'll note him as abstaining
<LaserJock> *risk
<jdong> imbrandon: aaah just got back
<LaserJock> heh
<imbrandon> hehe
<DktrKranz> just in time :)
 * jdong reads scrollback
 * DktrKranz gotta go
<jdong> or does someone wanna summarize for me?
<LaserJock> yeah
<DktrKranz> I'll read log later
<imbrandon> everyone good with that ?
<imbrandon> err
<imbrandon> okies we 're going just over an hoour here, i think we're all on the same page, we just add a few exmples ( and LaserJock can poke the main sru if they want them also ) and s/ubuntu-sru/motu-sru , other than that we stuck with main policy
<imbrandon> jdong: ^
<DktrKranz> but, +1 for me
<DktrKranz> see you
<TheMuso> yeah +1 as I said
<LaserJock> +1
<imbrandon> +1
<jdong> imbrandon: yeah, that sounds good to me
<jdong> +1
<LaserJock> \o/
<DarkSun88> Good job. :)
<imbrandon> \0/ , okies i'll have the page updated within ~20 minutes ( spellchecked hehe )
<DarkSun88> See you.
<jdong> yay, now back to this 24oz steak....
<imbrandon> and someone is free to mail the ML if they want
<imbrandon> *i dunt wanna* lol
<LaserJock> oh, wondered if we wanted some sort of "goal" for turnaround
<LaserJock> *I wondered
<imbrandon> who and huh?
<jdong> like turnaround time?
<imbrandon> oh we
<LaserJock> yeah
<imbrandon> ummm i dont think we should try since we're all un-paid
<imbrandon> imho
<TheMuso> agreed
<imbrandon> other than "best efforts"
<LaserJock> just as a goal, so we're on the same page
<jdong> I think 1 week for decision, 2-3wks for verification sounds reasonable as a GUIDELINE
<jdong> but best effort otherwise
<LaserJock> heh
<LaserJock> I was thinking 1 day for straight approval, 2 if it takes discussion, but maybe that's unreasonable
<jdong> LaserJock: wow, ambitious
<LaserJock> well, there are 5 of us and it only takes 1
<LaserJock> and all we need to do is "paperwork"
<imbrandon> LaserJock: yea i think thats a bit ambisious, i think "best effort" is good , we're all not persia hhehe
<LaserJock> lol, true that
<jdong> most approvals should be a 10-minute deal on our part.... but it's best not to rush it with a time factor IMO
<imbrandon> but one week is a fair "goal" as a guideline imho
<jdong> if on average an approval takes more than a week, I think that's a warning flag that ~motu-sru isn't working well
<imbrandon> thats even if we're all busy
<LaserJock> as long as *we* aren't bottlenecking SRUs
<TheMuso> Yeah
<imbrandon> right
<LaserJock> ok, so what's happening to the existing SRUs?
<imbrandon> if things on avg are takin more than a week we'll get the MC to step in and get us some help
<jdong> sounds good
<imbrandon> LaserJock: well we agreed i think earlier that ones already with an uplaod will follow the old way, ones in the queue now on LP should be updated to the new policy
<TheMuso> I still think best effort
<TheMuso> realy, if it takes over a week, it takes over a week
<imbrandon> TheMuso: yea
<jdong> TheMuso: well.. yeah... not like the MC can come and put us in jail if we take too long
<jdong> or suspend our paychecks :)
<TheMuso> My point exactly.
<jdong> but that doesn't mean we shouldn't have a guideline for how long it should acceptably take
<LaserJock> TheMuso: my only real problem with that is consistency, people start getting upset when their SRU took 2 weeks and somebody else's take 2 days
<TheMuso> I know that I may not be able to get to them all all the time
<LaserJock> I realize we're all volunteers and best effort is as good as we can do
<TheMuso> LaserJock: So what. Seriously, we are all volunteers.
<jdong> TheMuso: volunteers can still measure how well they are doing thier work
<TheMuso> People need to get over it if something takes shorter than someting else
<LaserJock> jdong: that was more my reasoning
<jdong> TheMuso: the guideline will strictly be a way we can assess how well the team is working, and if we need to change the process or recruit, etc
<LaserJock> if we have a goal and we're consistently not getting there then maybe we need an adjustment
<jdong> TheMuso: it's not designed to be a hard deadline to punish us
<TheMuso> jdong: I know that.
<LaserJock> anyway, we sounds like we should try to take no longer than a week
<jdong> a week is a reasonable guideline
<LaserJock> unless of course it actually takes that long to get all the info, etc.
<imbrandon> okies i got to run for ~30 minutes and then i'll update the wiki, i think we can officialy adjourn, no need for more special meetings do we other than regualr -motu meetings
 * TheMuso should be right once he has the motu-sru bugmail sorted.
<jdong> excpetions granted for less clear cases that need more time to evaluate
<jdong> but at least a status update a week from ~motu-sru so that it doesn't seem like the bug's being abandoned
<TheMuso> yep sounds good.
<LaserJock> ok, done then?
<TheMuso> yep I'd say so.
<imbrandon> okies so we dont need any more special -sru meetings do we other than the normal -motu meetings ?
<TheMuso> no
<TheMuso> IMO
<jdong> no
<imbrandon> i dont think so persoanly
<imbrandon> kk just makin sure we was all on the same page
<LaserJock> yeah, totally
<jdong> we're all regulars on IRC anyway, it's pretty easy to ad-hoc commuincate with each other if a problem arises
<LaserJock> MOTU SRU should be fairly low key
<TheMuso> jdong: agreed
<imbrandon> okies great work everyone :)
<TheMuso> thanks
<imbrandon> glad we could all finaly hash something out hehe
<LaserJock> thanks for the work imbrandon et al
<TheMuso> imbrandon: yeah thanks heaps
<imbrandon> i'm going afk for ~30-45 minutes, i'll grab the wiki update after that, but i would rather not compose a email to the list if one of you could it would rock, i hate writing emails
<TheMuso> heh ok
<imbrandon> :)
<LaserJock> TheMuso: you gonna do it?
<LaserJock> I can if not
<TheMuso> I msut admit I'm not up to it either yet, as I need to see the updated wiki before I fully 100% understand whats happening
<imbrandon> ok i'll update the wiki then ping you and LaserJock when i get back and you all can fight over who gets to email
<imbrandon> hehe
<LaserJock> hehe, sounds good
<imbrandon> ok <detached>
#ubuntu-meeting 2007-12-16
<Wizkid> Hello everyone..
<jason442> hello
<somerville32> hi
<jason442> I'm looking to setup a homeserver and really want to use ubuntu as my OS. However, I'm really having a hard time getting SlimServer working...anyone have any experiance getting SlimServer to work?
<somerville32> see #ubuntu-server
<jason442> But, I'm using the desktop edition
<jason442> Does that matter?
<somerville32> No
#ubuntu-meeting 2008-12-08
<anto_ubuntu> sorry news from ubuntu meeting Jaunty Jackalope?
#ubuntu-meeting 2008-12-09
<anto_ubuntu> Hi..News from the meeting?
<Mamarok> anto_ubuntu: what meeting are you talking about?
<anto_ubuntu> UDS Jaunty JackalopeÂ 
<anto_ubuntu> I thought that this is the right channel ICQ. Sorry if it's wrong
<mariusb> anto_ubuntu: you can follow in #ubuntu-devel-summit ... quiet at the moment since everybody is sleeping
<anto_ubuntu> thank you very much...you have right...I'm writing from Italy and now it is 11.48...:-D
<mariusb> and it is just before 3am at UDS ...
<jambe_at_least> bonsoir tous
<sgtd> hello
#ubuntu-meeting 2008-12-10
<Saz> hi guys
<McPeter> hi
<juliux> @schedule berlin
<ubottu> Schedule for Europe/Berlin: 15 Dec 20:00: LoCo Council | 16 Dec 02:00: Forum Council | 16 Dec 12:00: Community Council
<[NikO]> juliux: for approving new Ubuntu members it s 15 Dec 20:00 ?
<juliux> [NikO]: no  you have to attend a regional board meeting, loco council is not approving new members
<[NikO]> ok
<[NikO]> thanks
<juliux> yaw
#ubuntu-meeting 2008-12-11
<Koon> anyone around for the Java team meeting ?
<Koon> ok, apparently the usual suspects are missing. And slytherin, who should have chaired the meeting, is not online.
<Koon> Let's postpone to next week: next java team meeting will be Thu, Dec 18, 1400 UTC
#ubuntu-meeting 2008-12-13
<boshhead> I had to reboot my ubuntu based computer.
<cody-somerville> ok...
* ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 15 Dec 19:00: LoCo Council | 16 Dec 01:00: Forum Council | 16 Dec 11:00: Community Council | 16 Dec 16:00: Server Team | 16 Dec 17:00: Kernel Team | 17 Dec 16:00: Foundation Team
#ubuntu-meeting 2009-12-07
<pleia2> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 20:00. The chair is pleia2.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<pleia2> Hi folks, time for an Ubuntu Community Learning Project meeting :)
<pleia2> the agenda for our meeting is here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Learning/Agenda
<nigel_nb> do we wait, or start?
<pleia2> let me see if I can snag a couple people
<akgraner> pleia2, I am so glad I added meeting to autojoin... or I would have missed this meeting  :-/ sigh
<pleia2> :)
<nigel_nb> thats 3 :)
<pleia2> ok, well we can get started then
<pleia2> [TOPIC] Post-UDS Wrap-up
<MootBot> New Topic:  Post-UDS Wrap-up
<pleia2> at UDS doctormo and I ran a session on the project
<pleia2> it was primarily to introduce the project to folks at UDS, so nothing really news-worthy for us
<pleia2> doctormo did talk to loads of people at UDS though, drumming up interest for the project
 * FFEMTcJ is here
<akgraner> pleia2, is there anything I can do to tell more people who weren't at UDS about the project.. maybe and interview with you and doctormo ???
<pleia2> akgraner: did you have a blueprint for your leadership doc?
<akgraner> I haven't finished it as I didn't want to bug you all about adding action items...
<akgraner> but if the gobby doc is good I can finish it tonight
<pleia2> I think it's fine, I'd like to move forward with converting it to asciidoc in the next week or so
<pleia2> akgraner was one of the people we snagged :) she's writing a loco leadership document which will be put into our advocacy section
<pleia2> well, she and her army
<pleia2> hehe
<akgraner> hehe
<akgraner> pleia2, will there be a class on how to convert it
<pleia2> akgraner: yes, that is our next topic!
<akgraner> oops
<akgraner> sorry
<pleia2> [TOPIC] bzr how-to and asciidoc format updates
<MootBot> New Topic:  bzr how-to and asciidoc format updates
<pleia2> nigel_nb, doctormo and bioselement have been working on these
<nigel_nb> the bzr how-to is almost done
<pleia2> should be done soon I think, once it is one of us (probably me) will be using it as a basis for a Classroom session
<cprofitt> pleia2: when we say done -- what formats are we talking about?
<pleia2> nigel_nb: I was having trouble building it with the asciidoc command earlier, but I'll touch base with you about that later :)
<akgraner> awesome!
<nigel_nb> for urgent purposes, doctormo's blog post can be used to substitute mine
<pleia2> cprofitt: bzr, asciidoc and html
<cprofitt> is there a plan to make thse how-to courses in Asychronous Moodle courses?
<pleia2> cprofitt: no plan yet, we need our moodle folks to give us some input once they're finished
<cprofitt> what input do you need from your Moodle folks?
<pleia2> we're focusing on IRC and real life sessions right now because that's where we have the expertise at the moment
<nigel_nb> I could volunteer for that, if someone could tell me how its done
<pleia2> cprofitt: how we can go about putting the html docs into proper moodle format
<pleia2> and whether it's appropriate content
<cprofitt> are there any Moodle folks other than me?
<pleia2> cprofitt: you, dinda, bodhi
<cprofitt> I do not think bodhi has expereince with producing courses in Moodle... just admin of the server
<pleia2> ah, ok
<pleia2> anyway, in the next week or so we hope to have these docs in place and a scheduled -classroom session to teach how to contribute to this portion of the project
<nigel_nb> pleia2: umm, about the new updates to asciidoc formatting?
<cprofitt> from what I am gathering then you have not worked out the details on how to take asciidoc content and use it in Moodle yet - correct?
<pleia2> bios and doctormo had a great asciidoc format discusion earlier this week
<cprofitt> and you are looking for me to take these new courses and work through that?
<pleia2> cprofitt: we put it into html, and you can put that into moodle, right?
<pleia2> cprofitt: we'll at least need you to help advise us :)
<pleia2> but we're working on the core structure still right now
<cprofitt> pleia2: as I have not seen a completed ascii doc course yet - I am not sure
<cprofitt> I want to take a completed course and do that...
<pleia2> cprofitt: I know, I'm saying we're getting a finish one done this week...
<cprofitt> but until I have I can not comment on how it transfers
<pleia2> I know
 * pleia2 sighs
<cprofitt> Cool... so the plan is for me to take that and work it in to Moodle... and report back on what I ran in to then... right?
<pleia2> cprofitt: you or anyone who has experience with moodle and can do it
<pleia2> I didn't intend to put you on the spot
<cprofitt> I do not feel on the spot. I want to move us forward...
<cprofitt> so I can do that.
<pleia2> I'm just saying we haven't made progress with moodle because the current folks who are actively working on this don't have the expertise
<nigel_nb> plus we still haven't got something to work with
<pleia2> we are moving forward :)
<nigel_nb> yes :)
<cprofitt> experience will come -- once I take one course and convert it... then we can work on training the non-Moodle folks on Moodle and vice/versa
<pleia2> and of course we'll mail the list when the courses are done and we have the -classroom session
<pleia2> sounds good
<pleia2> that's pretty much all we had for an agenda
<cprofitt> sorry I missed the first 9 minutes -- child got hurt
<nigel_nb> pleia2: do we have an update on how to format asciidoc now?
<pleia2> I just wanted to have a meeting to get everyone up to speed with our progress, and see if anyone else was working on things they wanted to update the team with
<cprofitt> he was jumping on his bed :-)
<pleia2> nigel_nb: bioselement and doctormo are the experts there
<nigel_nb> after doctormo's and bioselement's discussion
<pleia2> nigel_nb: it's pretty similar to what you have now
<pleia2> nigel_nb: hopefully that will be settled and documented by the time you are finished with your bzr doc
<cprofitt> pleia2: how many course developers do we have?
<pleia2> cprofitt: bioselement, nigel, and paultag&swoody have committed to doing things when we have sorted
<pleia2> plus doctormo and I
<pleia2> we're holding back recruiting more until we have more docs in order
<pleia2> and we've got a couple folks fleshing out wiki pages here and there as they have time
<cprofitt> sounds like a good start
<pleia2> yep :)
<cprofitt> I do not know if you were made aware of my conversation with BiosElement earlier this week
<pleia2> I don't think so
<cprofitt> I should have some extra time mid-December to work on learning Asciidoc
<pleia2> oh great :)
<cprofitt> so I hope to really be able to document our process of converting from Asciidoc to Moodle or Moodle to Asciidoc
<pleia2> great
<pleia2> oh!
<pleia2> [TOPIC] User Days
<MootBot> New Topic:  User Days
<FFEMTcJ> ;-)
<pleia2> For those of you not aware, the UCLP is leading the effort to run a User Day in January
<pleia2> but I think everyone here knows and is involved :)
<pleia2> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UserDaysTeam
<pleia2> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UserDays
<pleia2> off to a good start here too, but we need more instructors signing up in the next couple weeks
<nigel_nb> we have 4 instructors so far
<nigel_nb> correction, 6
<pleia2> I'd like to have our schedule fleshed out 2 weeks from now, so we have about a month to promote
<pleia2> nigel_nb: good :)
<FFEMTcJ> so we need 4 more plus the intro?
<pleia2> FFEMTcJ: something like that
<cprofitt> pleia2: where will Ubuntu User Days be advertised?
<FFEMTcJ> pleia2: what are you thinking for the intro?
<nigel_nb> cprofitt: blogs, twitter,
<pleia2> cprofitt: similar to UOW, fridge, UWN, blogs, twitter
<nigel_nb> pleia2: how about /topic?
<pleia2> nigel_nb: where?
<nigel_nb> on major channels where beginners are bound to come... ubuntu-beginners, -help
<nigel_nb> and if we can manage it, #ubuntu
<pleia2> it'll be in Upcoming in the topic of -classroom as the date approaches (it's already on the Classroom wiki)
<pleia2> nigel_nb: I don't think that'll be very feasible :\
<nigel_nb> lots of users see it, it would be major advertisement
<pleia2> not in #ubuntu, you can check with BT if you want to see if it's ok with them
<nigel_nb> I'll check
<pleia2> well that's all I have meeting-wise
<akgraner> pleia2, I'd like to help but have no idea where I could with Userdays...
<akgraner> if you can think of something I can teach I would/will
<pleia2> akgraner: I haven't engaged the community-team much since at UDS it was kinda handed off to the learning project
<akgraner> ahhh gotcha...
<pleia2> but probably should, since they run Open Week :)
<pleia2> might snag you to help with /topics and [QUESTION]s on the day of though ;)
<akgraner> I helped with putting that together so let me know what I can do and I will
<pleia2> great, thanks :)
<nigel_nb> do we have anything more pleia2?
<pleia2> nigel_nb: I don't think so
<FFEMTcJ> pleia2: what were you thinking of doing for the intro?
<pleia2> FFEMTcJ: sorry, you asked that earlier :)
<FFEMTcJ> np
<pleia2> FFEMTcJ: not sure yet, intro to the premise of the day, maybe a quick ubuntu desktop intro too
<FFEMTcJ> now akgraner is gonna make my cell go nuts since pleia2  stopped
<FFEMTcJ> ok..
<pleia2> I have an intro prepped for "welcome to ubuntu" that is based on what doctormo teaches in classrooms in bazaar
<pleia2> so I might work with that,we can talk about it though
<akgraner> FFEMTcJ, :-P
<FFEMTcJ> ok. cool
<pleia2> ok, if that's it we'll wrap things up now :)
<FFEMTcJ> sounds good to me..
<pleia2> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 20:36.
<pleia2> thanks everyone!
<cprofitt> I motion to close the meeting if we need to be formal
<FFEMTcJ> second
<FFEMTcJ> hehe
<akgraner> thanks pleia2 :-)
<cprofitt> .part
<jeansch> Hi
<czajkowski> aloha
<MyGame> Hi jose
<MyGame> Hahahah
<kees> jdstrand, mdeslaur: quick meeting?
 * jjohansen drops in
<jdstrand> kees: sure
<kees> heya jjohansen
<mdeslaur> yep!
<kees> ok.  I'm on triage this week.
<kees> gonna try to find some low-hanging updates to do, but haven't reviewed the TODO list yet
<mdeslaur> kees: triage?
<mdeslaur> how'd you figure?
<kees> mdeslaur: aren't I?
 * kees assumed he was from bumping it last week
<mdeslaur> oh, okay then, I don't object
 * kees checks
<mdeslaur> who's on community?
<kees> oh, my bad, I'm on community.
<kees> well, next time someone goes on vacation, I'm on triage.  :)
<mdeslaur> hehe :)
<mdeslaur> ok, I'll update the topic now that that,s sorted out
<mdeslaur> bah, you're faster than me :)
<kees> oop, just did that
<kees> heh
<kees> AppArmor is no longer a limiting factor for initramfs.  http://people.canonical.com/~scott/daily-bootcharts/
<jjohansen> woot
 * robbiew waves
<mdeslaur> cool
<jjohansen> kees: thanks for doing that
<mdeslaur> kees: how did you do it?
<kees> so, I will claim the 1/10th of a second improvement in the bootcharts.  ;)
<robbiew> he
<Keybuk> kees: it isn't?
<jdstrand> kees: acutally, you are on triage, and I am on community
<Keybuk> oh yeah
<jjohansen> 1/10th ? I thought loading was taking .4
<jdstrand> at least, that is what I thought we said
<Keybuk> jjohansen: that includes the init script I guess
<jjohansen> ah, yes
<kees> jjohansen: well, that's what I calculated, but comparing 20091130 to 20091207 shows only a little
 * robbiew thinks Keybuk must have "bootchart" marked as an irc keyword
<robbiew> heh
<kees> Keybuk: yup, the early stuff has been moved to fancy ifupdown changes
<Keybuk> robbiew: no, just my name, which is in the URL kees pasted ;)
<kees> mdeslaur: basically, the only really early stuff we had to deal with was interface up/down.
<mdeslaur> ah, I see
<kees> mdeslaur: so there's a new upstart job to bring up the early profiles only.
<mdeslaur> cool
<kees> jjohansen: and I'll be improving it based on your feedback.  :)
<kees> I'm a bit out of the loop from a week off, so that's all I've got.
<kees> jdstrand: ok, go.  :)
<jjohansen> for being off you sure did a lot
<kees> well, yeah, waiting for kernel builds, I had to do something.  :P
<kees> I'll take another 2 days off as swap days at some point here
<mdeslaur> jdstrand, kees: I'll let you two duke out who gets triage
 * jdstrand thought that was the plan all along
<kees> I was expecting to do it, so I'm cool either way.
<jdstrand> I should take community, cause I didn't do enough with it last week (thinking I had it this week)
<kees> heh
<kees> ok, let's swap.
<jdstrand> ok
<mdeslaur> ok, my turn
<mdeslaur> I just _finally_ released bind9
<mdeslaur> and will probably release gnome-screensaver for karmic this afternoon
<mdeslaur> my vacation starts thursday
<mdeslaur> so tomorrow and wednesday, I'll probably work on the screen-locking wiki
<mdeslaur> although I may still be researching it at this point
<mdeslaur> current status: 2 known bugs, first bug will be taken care of in a security update, second bug is when using xubuntu/mythbuntu and there is no solution
<kees> nice work on hunting all this madness down!
<mdeslaur> yes, madness is right
<mdeslaur> that's all from me
<jdstrand> well, I'm on community (surprise!)
<jdstrand> I also have a bunch of pending stuff I need to finish testing and publish this week
<jdstrand> that stuff and a complicated merge took up a lot of my time last week, so I didn't do any SRUs last week. If I have time, I'll work on those too
<jdstrand> that's it from me
<kees> (that reminds me: *deletes kernel-related packages from PPA*)
<kees> our burndown chart appears to be going the wrong direction.  :P  http://piware.de/workitems/security/lucid/report.html
 * jdstrand warned about that :)
<kees> heh.  I suspect this trend will continue.  ;)
<mdeslaur> hehe
<jdstrand> ours will be an ugly, ugly burndown chart :P
<kees> anyway, I'm not worried; as long as the green bits go up, I'm happy.
<kees> hehe
<jdstrand> of course, I don't have any dev work scheduled this week...
<jdstrand> I guess I'll try not to add new taks then ;)
<jdstrand> tasks
<kees> no worries -- triage/updates first, dev work second. :)
<kees> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/open-cves-6mon.png  THIS is the graph I want to see shaped like a burndown chart.  ;)
<jdstrand> seems we did pretty well next week :P
<kees> haha
<mdeslaur> hehe
<kees> ok, cool.  meeting over, thanks!  :)
<jdstrand> sure!
<mdeslaur> thanks guys
<mdeslaur> oh, does anyone have anything they would like to discuss with the security team?
<czam> hi everyone :D
<dvz-> hi there czam
<IngForigua> Good luck today
<Toluxero> hi czam dvz-
<IngForigua> :)
<Michelle_Qimo> Hi everyone
<mhall119> Tonight's applicant list: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Membership/RegionalBoards/Americas
<itnet7> Good luck to everyone!
 * popey spies some familiar names on that list
<rickspencer3> hi guyses
<dailystruggle> hello
<itnet7> hey there rickspencer3 !
<pleia2> just rounding up the board so we have quorum :) starting soon I hope
<rickspencer3> hi itnet7
<rickspencer3> k
<dvz-> this feels like the meet and greet before nominations/approvals :P
<fetova> xD
<akgraner> good luck everyone!
<jorgevazq> dvz-: xD
 * rickspencer3 crosses fingers
 * jorgevazq eats popcorn
 * dvz- plays poker on facebook
 * Michelle_Qimo has leftover BBQ
<technoviking> just waiting for a couple more folk so we have a quorum
 * mhall119 contemplates cookies
 * starcraftman waves hello to everyone.
 * IngForigua hello
 * Renard_D-Argent waves too
 * fetova waves :)
 * jorgevazq would wave, if his hands weren't busy with keyboards, popcorn and soda
<akgraner> rickspencer3, hey!
<Michelle_Qimo> lol
<rickspencer3> hi akgraner
<mhall119> zoopster: was wondering where you were
<zoopster> mhall119: long day...just made it back
<dvz-> welcome zoopster
<zoopster> dvz-: thanks
<itnet7> Hey there zoopster !!
<zoopster> hey itnet7
<Michelle_Qimo> Hey zoopster
<zoopster> hello Michelle_Qimo - back sore from all that heavy lifting?
<Michelle_Qimo> nope
<mhall119> zoopster: she's not allowed to do any lifting
<Michelle_Qimo> :-)
<zoopster> hah...lucky you Michelle_Qimo
<mhall119> :P
<Michelle_Qimo> um, not sure I'd go that far
<IngForigua> :)
<zoopster> sorry I could not help today mhall119, Michelle_Qimo
 * robbiew-afk waves
<czam> good luck everyone ;)
<Michelle_Qimo> oh,it's OK, I know it was last minute, zoopster
<mhall119> zoopster: it's okay, my folks came over, so I had help
<zoopster> ah good mhall119
<mhall119> did you see the pictures?
<zoopster> not yet
<mhall119> zoopster: http://picasaweb.google.com/mhall119/Donations#
<zoopster> ooh nice
<mhall119> yeah
<Michelle_Qimo> I'm SO excited about 'em
<itnet7> wow very very nice Michelle_Qimo and mhall119 !
<mhall119> zoopster: we're gonna schedule an install fest sometime soon
<mhall119> itnet7: finally able to see the pictures?
<czam> hi hollman :)
<zoopster> awsome mhall119 can't wait
<Michelle_Qimo> will keep you posted on dates.
<hollman> hello * Ubuntu-co present :P
<mhall119> popey: still missing people?
<fetova> :P
<popey> mhall119: ask technoviking :)
<pleia2> we're still one short
<popey> elky or lifeless about?
<elky> you're lucky, just resumed.
<elky> popey?
<pleia2> elky: up for a membership meeting?
 * popey points pleia2 at elky 
<pleia2> americas needs quorum
<technoviking> Sorry folk, this is highly embrassing and unprofessional of the RMB-Ameicas, I'm deeply sorry
<rickspencer3> hehe
<fetova> :P
 * fetova , ubuntu-mx LoCo leader, present :P
<elky> uh sure
<jono> popey, elky can you both step up to help
<popey> i can
<pleia2> thanks popey and elky :)
<elky> sure
<elky> mind, i am at work, so if i disappear, blame real life
<dvz-> +1 popey and elky :D
<jono> thanks popey elky
<czam> un saludo a los latinos presentes ;)
<IngForigua> Hola czam
<Toluxero> czam saludos!
<elky> who is the whip? pleia2?
<IngForigua> latinos presentes
<IngForigua> :)
<fetova> ;)
<pleia2> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 17:18. The chair is pleia2.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<pleia2> ok folks, lets get this meeting started :)
<popey> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Membership/RegionalBoards/Americas
<pleia2> tenach isn't here
<pleia2> Toluxero: you're up :)
<Toluxero> pleia2, ok
<Toluxero> hi everybody
<pleia2> Toluxero: please introduce yourself and give a link to your wiki page
<Toluxero> ok mi wiki pages is https://wiki.ubuntu.com/toluxero
<technoviking> LP is slow tonight:)
<nixternal> hola
<Toluxero> I'am a member and admin of Ubuntu-mx
<Toluxero>  I've been involved in the LoCo for more than a year
<Toluxero> and I have kept myself as active as possible in the proyect diffunding ubuntu and the LoCo
<Toluxero> and making my best effort in order to see ubuntu-mx grow larger in members and influence in the country
<technoviking> Toluxero: how is the podcast going?
<itnet7> technoviking: you stole my thoughts ;-P
<nixternal> Toluxero: how is the Mexico LoCo?
<Toluxero> technoviking,  The podcast just aired its second chapter on November 25th
 * nixternal notes you need to spread out to Cabo San Lucas so when I visit I can hang out :)
<Toluxero> technoviking,  we're working on a special chapter about Karmic for december ;)
<technoviking> Toluxero: excellent
<nixternal> I just read something on the planet about ubuntu-mx iirc
<technoviking> Toluxero: what are your plans for the Lucid cycle?
<fetova> hi, i'm fetova, ubuntu-mx LoCo leader, ubuntu member, i'm here to give my fully support to Toluxero :)
<Toluxero> nixternal, The LoCo has undercome several changes in its structure, which we hope mahy increase our effectiveness and influence
<nixternal> fetova: groovy, thanks!
<Toluxero> nixternal, , the LoCo has made some very special advances this year
<elky> Toluxero, what sort of tasks do you undertake in your admin role of the ubuntu-mexico website?
<Toluxero> elky, administration, logistic, and support, events and more
<Toluxero> technoviking, for Lucyd, the plan is to diffund it not only as a version of an OS, but as the entrance to the world of Free Software and the Open Source movement
<Toluxero> elky: more includes my participation in the marketing, podcast and documentation teams
<technoviking> Toluxero: good, anyone here to cheer for Toluxero?
<jorgevazq> hello, everybody, I'm jorgevazq, leader of ubuntu-mx-podcast team, and I'm here to support Toluxero
<DKcross> We need people like Toluxero... his work is good and he is helps to Ubuntu MÃ©xico, we know this is a big and amazing project for this reason we need people with energy and love for Ubuntu Project... Go Toluxero +1
<pleia2> [VOTE] Toluxero for Membership
<MootBot> Please vote on:  Toluxero for Membership.
<MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
<MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
<pleia2> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from pleia2. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
<technoviking> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from technoviking. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2
<nixternal> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from nixternal. 3 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 3
<elky> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from elky. 4 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 4
<popey> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from popey. 5 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 5
<fetova> gratz Toluxero !!!!!
<czam> congrats Toluxero ;)
<nixternal> you guys started voting while I was searching for that post I saw on the planet :)
<itnet7> congrats to you Toluxero !!!
<greg-g> hi, sorry I'm late
<jorgevazq> Toluxero: you did it!!
<nixternal> congrats and welcome Toluxero \o/
<Toluxero> thanks everybody!
<pleia2> #endvote
<technoviking> congrats
<dvz-> gratz Toluxero
<czam> felicidades Toluxero ;)
 * Toluxero is happy!!! 
<fetova> o/
 * jorgevazq is happy
<hollman> Toluxero, congrats from Colombia !!!
<DKcross> Orale we ! Toluxero
<Toluxero> hollman, gracias
 * fetova is happy! :D
<jorgevazq> medigo DKcross por que no apoyaste?
<jorgevazq> xD
<jorgevazq> nah no hay pex
<jamesjedimaster> hi, I'm jamesjedimaster, moderator and leader of ubuntu-mx-i18, and am here supporting Toluxero's nomination
<fetova> Joeb454, ... lo hizo :S
<Toluxero> DKcross, gracias :)
<fetova> jorgevazq,
<pleia2> starcraftman: you're up :)
<jorgevazq> jamesjedimaster: ya lo aceptaron
<DKcross> no leiste :o jorgevazq
<jorgevazq> DKcross: ups
<fetova> silencio compas :)
<IngForigua> Vivan los latinos
<DKcross> me voy, congrats Toluxero
<starcraftman> Hello everyone, I'm starcraft.man. Wiki page >https://wiki.ubuntu.com/starcraft.man
<pleia2> [ENDVOTE]
<MootBot> Final result is 5 for, 0 against. 0 abstained. Total: 5
<technoviking> starcraftman: Lots of great forum and doc work.
<technoviking> starcraftman: What are your plans during the Lucid cycle?
<starcraftman> I'm a uni student up in canada, going into programming. Been doing lots of stuff with Ubuntu for a while, started on forums back in 2007 and been a longtime support person there. Lately been moving on from there and doing other things. I'm part of beginners team and head up the doc team, do support on our irc channel too.
<technoviking> forums irc channel or #ubuntu?
<starcraftman> technoviking: hmmm, well learning C++ and python myself atm, with java at uni. I hope to get into programming. Likely more doc work, I enjoy writing. No shortage of pages needed.
<starcraftman> technoviking: #ubuntu-beginners-help.
<starcraftman> our own lil quieter channel guess ya can call it, #ubuntu too crowded I find.
<starcraftman> Also been trying to get into loco but didn't make any meetings last cycle for quebec, I am hopeful this time around.
<greg-g> starcraftman: I've heard that loco is pretty good, do you know anyone in it?
<starcraftman> Most my major contributions linked on my page if ya want to see my doc work.
<nixternal> starcraftman: great wiki work!
<starcraftman> greg-g: aye, spoken to magicfab and komputes often. Need to attend definitely.
<starcraftman> nixternal: thanks. I try.
<greg-g> starcraftman: good deal. Just making sure you know the right people to talk to.
<starcraftman> nixternal: wish more people did backup, could solve many problems. That an a home partition.
<nixternal> starcraftman: seeing as you doc skills are pretty darn good, the documentation project is always looking for a few more good people, and from what I can see, even a little bit of your time would fit nicely
 * komputes awakes from its nocturnal slumber
<komputes> hein?
<starcraftman> nixternal: I am in doc team, beginners doc FG is a subgroup of them, I'm on the mail list. Just not exactly most respondant on there, been busy with uni exams coming.
<starcraftman> sorry for ping komputes. Ya can go back to sleep :)
<nixternal> yeah, just noticed that...you would think I would know that seeing how long I have been a doc team admin :p
<greg-g> starcraftman: do you have any ideas about specific areas that the docs team could improve?
<starcraftman> nixternal: hehe, these things happen. Also can get a bit confusing way we structured under team.
<nixternal> ya, it is definitely a mess
<starcraftman> greg-g: most of my major pages have been towards expanding content, backup just happens to be something I like.  I'd like to think I might flush it out a bit more, probably will need to find a new section to work on after that. With my newly gotten admin powers I'll probably try and pitch in a bit more trying to organize it. Sometimes all ya need is help finding pages.
<pleia2> [VOTE] starcraftman for Membership
<MootBot> Please vote on:  starcraftman for Membership.
<MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
<MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
<talsemgeest> I completely support starcraftman in his application, he is an extremely valuable member of the team. His help in #ubuntu-beginners-help reflects well the spirit of ubuntu, and his doc work cannot be beaten.
<nixternal> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from nixternal. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
<pleia2> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from pleia2. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2
<greg-g> +1 # good work starcraftman
<greg-g> +1
<starcraftman> hi there talsemgeest, thanks :)
<talsemgeest> starcraftman: A pleasure :)
<Renard_D-Argent> I also support starcraftman in his application.  He is both patient and caring.  An inspiration to others.  I support application 100%
<technoviking> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from technoviking. 3 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 3
<MootBot> +1 received from greg-g. 4 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 4
<komputes> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from komputes. 5 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 5
<komputes> starcraftman is a good community member
<czam> congrats starcraftman :)
<dvz-> starcraftman has unbelievable potential, both in the development/programming realm and the documentation realm.
<itnet7> congrats!
<jorgevazq> when, I should be going now
<jorgevazq> congratulations starcraftman
<jorgevazq> ^^
<starcraftman> thanks, happy to be aboard helping. :)
<jorgevazq> you deserved it
<komputes> congrats starcraftman
<pleia2> komputes: only board members vote, please ;)
<technoviking> please only vote if you are on the membership board
<elky> +1
<jorgevazq> nice to meet you all guys!
<MootBot> +1 received from elky. 6 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 6
<pleia2> [ENDVOTE]
<MootBot> Final result is 6 for, 0 against. 0 abstained. Total: 6
<komputes> sorry pleia2
 * komputes goes back to sleep
<pleia2> congrats starcraftman :)
<nixternal> congrats and welcome starcraftman \o/
<greg-g> welcome aboard starcraftman!
<dvz-> congrats starcraftman
<pleia2> tenach: around for the membership meeting?
<starcraftman> thanks pleia2 nixternal and greg-g
<technoviking> congrats
<akgraner> congrats starcraftman !
<Renard_D-Argent> Well done
<Renard_D-Argent> =]
<technoviking> dailystruggle: your up
<pleia2> ok, doesn't look like tenach is around
<tenach> I am around, but I do not think that I am ready at this time.
<pleia2> tenach: can you remove your name from the wiki page, please?
<tenach> Yes.
<pleia2> thanks :)
<technoviking> tenach: thanks for the update
<dailystruggle> Hello may name is Daniel Stone my wiki is https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Daniel-Stone
<nixternal> yet another daniel stone :)  I saw your name and was like "wait a second, what am I missing here" :)
<nixternal> that little penguin that walks along your cairo dock provides a good chuckle
<elky> nixternal, metoo
<dailystruggle> nixternal lot of people like it
 * itnet7 met dailystruggle at uds-l! Hey  there!
<nixternal> I have watched a couple of your videos actually in the past...good stuff
<greg-g> dailystruggle: I see you are a part of both the Texas team and the Wisconsin team, do you have two homes? A sumer and winter? :)
<dailystruggle> inet7 hi
<dailystruggle> I am an advocate for Ubuntu
<nixternal> winter home is in WI :p
<dailystruggle> greg-g I have relatives up north
<nixternal> speaking of winter...get ready greg-g, it will be here tomorrow in chicago, so it is only a few hours later til you get hit :)
<greg-g> nixternal: I'm ready.
<greg-g> dailystruggle: gotcha. Do you work with that LoCo team on anything? or is it just a affinity type of thing?
<dailystruggle> gre-g it is more to particpate from remote since the Texasteam has not fully formed
<nixternal> heh, a little bug monkey I see...I saw emails from Daneil Stone on some things, so I just looked past them....have quite a few emails with your name in them :)
<pleia2> dailystruggle: are you familiar with the http://screencasts.ubuntu.com/ project? Might be worthy to contribute to since you do videos too
<dailystruggle> greg-g: it is so I can learn more from watching
<dailystruggle> I believe I am part of that
 * nixternal needs to figure out screen casting one of these days
<greg-g> dailystruggle: do you work with the screencasts team on anything collaboratively?
<dailystruggle> greg-g I have just started do screencasts in the past 6 months
<dailystruggle> greg-g:my goal is to help out where I can by making video and screenshots
<greg-g> dailystruggle: I see. You might want to talk with them. They are great people and having all of the videos in one spot is useful for users.
#ubuntu-meeting 2009-12-08
<dailystruggle> greg-g:I agree to help the people in need
<duanedesign> dailystruggle: hello
<dailystruggle> I am learning new .ogg embedding techniques
<elky> dailystruggle, how have you integrated with the beginners team?
<duanedesign> dailystruggle: screencasts!!
<dailystruggle> duanedesign:hi
<nixternal> anyone here to provide any testimonials for dailystruggle?
<dailystruggle> elky:I am trying to start a new user experience team we had a meeting last saturday on it
<duanedesign> dailystruggle:http://screencasts.ubuntu.com/
<elky> dailystruggle, that's not what I asked.
<duanedesign> oh wait pleia2 beat me too it
 * duanedesign didnt realize this was a meeting. sorry
<technoviking> duanedesign: no harm no foul
<dailystruggle> elky : no I have not its just forming and lots of work it sounds like I should
<elky> dailystruggle, i think a lot of what you do can be integrated well with both the screencasts team and the beginners team. im perplexed as to why you're off reinventing the wheel for it all.
<dailystruggle> elky it is my intention of integration as much as posible
<dailystruggle> elky : not trying to reinvent the wheel just hoping to help the wheel roll
<elky> dailystruggle, that's much easier when you embrace teamwork. it also helps to centralise things rather than scattering them all over the intarwebs which is not helpful to new users in any way, shape or form.
<pleia2> [VOTE] dailystruggle for Membership
<MootBot> Please vote on:  dailystruggle for Membership.
<MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
<MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
<dailystruggle> elky: I agree
<nixternal> dailystruggle: some of the bug triage you ahve done is pretty good....do you have any aspirations of becoming a developer any time soon?
<nixternal> err
<nixternal> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from nixternal. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
<technoviking> -1 for me
<MootBot> -1 received from technoviking. 1 for, 1 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 0
<pleia2> +0
<MootBot> Abstention received from pleia2. 1 for, 1 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 0
<nixternal> lots of good bug work, should have made it more public here
<dailystruggle> nixternal:only a hope
<pleia2> I'd really like to see more integration with existing teams
<pleia2> (as has been mentioned)
<elky> +0 would like to see evidence of integration
<MootBot> Abstention received from elky. 1 for, 1 against. 2 have abstained. Count is now 0
<greg-g> +0 # I would prefer to see more work with existing teams instead of separate. When you do that, come back!
<MootBot> Abstention received from greg-g. 1 for, 1 against. 3 have abstained. Count is now 0
<popey> dailystruggle: I'd be interested in talking to you about the screencast team
<dailystruggle> popey: that sound great
<greg-g> dailystruggle: popey is a great resource for screencasts :)
<pleia2> [ENDVOTE]
<MootBot> Final result is 1 for, 1 against. 3 abstained. Total: 0
<elky> i'm sure the beginners team would love to hear from you too
<pleia2> dailystruggle: I'd suggest dropping a note to the beginners team too :)
<dailystruggle> I have so much material its not funny
<popey> dailystruggle: popey@ubuntu.com - drop me a mail
<dvz-> dailystruggle: we'd love to have you around in the Beginner's Team
<itnet7> dailystruggle: you have done a good job so far, look forward to seeing what you can do with the teams!!
<duanedesign> dailystruggle: i am interested in screencasts as well
<tenach> dailystruggle: #ubuntu-beginners
<dailystruggle> popey:thanks
<pleia2> dailystruggle: great work so far, please come back to a for membership meeting in a couple months :)
<nixternal> next? we need to speed this process up...to much white space in time
<hollman_> nixternal> next? we need to speed this process up...to much white space in time ---> +1
<greg-g> FFEMTcJ: please introduce yourself.
<FFEMTcJ> My wiki page: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ChristopherJohnston
<FFEMTcJ> My name is Chris Johnston. I'm from Florida. I am a FireFighter / Paramedic offline. I have been using Ubuntu for 3 years full time. I started out managing an Ubuntu server for my websites, and then very quickly began using it as a desktop.
<FFEMTcJ> I have been running my website (http://chrisjohnston.org) for a year writing Ubuntu tutorials for both server and desktop users. Recently I have gotten involed in the Florida LoCo. I am currently in the bug squad and beginners team mentorship programs, am a member of the Ubuntu Community Learning Project and currently working on planning the Ubuntu User Days, which will provide live courses (hopefully on a regular basis) to new and 
<nixternal> FFEMTcJ: I got beat up by a Chris Jonston in 1987 here in Chicago...was that you?
<FFEMTcJ> I was 4.. You make the call
<mhall119> maybe he's not much of a fighter
 * nixternal shuts his mouth before the rumor mill kicks in
<FFEMTcJ> ;-)
<mhall119> I'm here to support FFEMTcJ, he has been helping me get a family-oriented website up for the ubuntu-florida team and has been active and helpful in our LoCo
<FFEMTcJ> Thanks mhall119
<nixternal> FFEMTcJ: I recently saw on IRC you explaining what your nick meant....I swore it was for membership...so bare with me here...gotta look over your wiki page and lp really quick
<itnet7> rofl
<nixternal> ahh, bug chan....I see you have been busy there
<mhall119> nixternal: he was on the list last time, but time ran out
<FFEMTcJ> nixternal: seems like I explain it every other day.. so no idea when
<c0rtex> Please, *please* speed the process... we're all waiting.
<FFEMTcJ> Most common question: How do you pronounce FFEMTcJ
<nixternal> FFEMTcJ: how long have you been bug triaging?
<c0rtex> speed up*
<FFEMTcJ> nixternal: about a month...
<nixternal> really? you have some good input in the reports
<itnet7> FFEMTcJ: has been really getting involved with the team, I look forward to what he is going to do in the future
<nixternal> seems you might have a knack for it
<FFEMTcJ> ty
<FFEMTcJ> uh oh.. the boss is talking about me.. itnet7 :-P
<mhall119> hey boredandblogging!
<nixternal> OH!!!
<nixternal> I remember the FFEMTcJ explanation...it was UDS over the intertubes when I was listening in
<FFEMTcJ> nixternal: that would be another place..
<FFEMTcJ> hehe
<technoviking> FFEMTcJ: What are your plans during the Lucid cycle
<nixternal> you were explaining it to pleia2 iirc :P
<FFEMTcJ> Lucid Plans: Start a local Ubuntu Hour (hoping the first one will be next Monday), Ubuntu User Days, Finish mentorship in BeginnersTeam and BugSquad.
<FFEMTcJ> nixternal: sounds about right
<pleia2> yeah, FFEMTcJ did loads of remote participation at UDS
<nixternal> groovy
<FFEMTcJ> pleia2: couldnt talk the wife into letting me go :-(
<pleia2> FFEMTcJ: how long have you been involved directly with projects in the Ubuntu community?
<FFEMTcJ> Joined the LoCo in Sept.. Started geting involved with projects in October...
<mhall119> FFEMTcJ is also going to help me launch family.ubuntu-fl.org, I'll hold him to it
<cprofitt> FFEMTcJ -- I understand not being able to go to things...
<technoviking> FFEMTcJ: excellent
<FFEMTcJ> Forgot about that mhall119 ...
<mhall119> I didn't
<FFEMTcJ> cprofitt: ;-)
<itnet7> all of the things that FFEMTcJ has said he will start or do he has followed through
<mhall119> his blog is also syndicated on planet.ubuntu-fl.org
<Pendulum> FFEMTcJ: does your wiki still mention that you participated remotely in UDS for Lucid?
<greg-g> itnet7: thanks for that
<FFEMTcJ> Pendulum: I guess not.. it says that I volunteered for UUD at UDS-L.. :-x
<pleia2> [Vote] FFEMTcJ for Membership
<MootBot> Please vote on:  FFEMTcJ for Membership.
<MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
<MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
<nixternal> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from nixternal. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
<technoviking> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from technoviking. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2
<technoviking> great work
<FFEMTcJ> Thanks technoviking
<greg-g> +1 # plus I know itnet7 and mhall119 will keep you active in the loco :)
<MootBot> +1 received from greg-g. 3 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 3
<pleia2> +1 keep up the great work
<MootBot> +1 received from pleia2. 4 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 4
<FFEMTcJ> greg-g: I think thats a threat from them
<itnet7> congratulations FFEMTcJ !! greg-g you know we will ;-P
<elky> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from elky. 5 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 5
<pleia2> [ENDVOTE]
<MootBot> Final result is 5 for, 0 against. 0 abstained. Total: 5
<czam> FFEMTcJ congrats ;)
<mhall119> congrats FFEMTcJ
<Michelle_Qimo> congratulations, FFEMTcJ!!
<FFEMTcJ> Thanks everyone
<Michelle_Qimo> :-)
<technoviking> Congrats
<pleia2> welcome FFEMTcJ :)
<akgraner> FFEMTcJ, Congrats!
<cprofitt> Congrats FFEMTcJ
<greg-g> congrats
<itnet7> sorry elky thought it was in the bag
<govatent> go FFEMTcJ
<zoopster> woohoo FFEMTcJ!
<nixternal> congrats and welcome FFEMTcJ \o//
<nixternal> oops. 2 arms
<pleia2> zoopster: you're up :)
<_marx_> congrats FFEMTcJ
<zoopster> Hi, I'm John Pugh, my wiki page is at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/jpugh
<greg-g> oh no, zoopster
<nixternal> uh oh, it's zoopster
<zoopster> Otherwise known as zoopster, a long time linux user, started with Slackware in the late '90s, closet Ubuntu user from 2007 until last year (worked for Novell), and now a official full time Ubuntu user since 8.04.
<cprofitt> zoopster: we have the same shirt :-
<zoopster> geez..that's a great start!
<nixternal> haha, closet ubuntu user :P
<zoopster> and it was FRIGID in that room that day, too
<nixternal> I was a closet Kubuntu user while working at MS, so I know the feeling :)
<Michelle_Qimo> zoopster & I have worked together on some loco event organization, and I don't know if my opinion counts for diddly, but he's a great guy and a terrific asset to the community.
<mhall119> zoopster pretty much got me started in the Florida LoCo through his Tampa meetups
<cprofitt> I am impressed reading the presentations you have given zoopster
<greg-g> Michelle_Qimo: you're opinion is welcomed, thank you
<zoopster> thanks everyone for the kind words
<akgraner> zoopster, has always been eager to help with community events (OSCON ubuntu booth and ALF UbuCon)
<technoviking> zoopster: my legs are still sore from walking around Barcelona:)
<zoopster> I like to present so advocacy is what I enjoy...
<zoopster> we did some walking around Barcelona...that's for sure.
<cprofitt> zoopster: so same shirt, you like to present,... are you a Buccaneers fan like I am too?
<greg-g> zoopster: so, you like giving presentations I see, do you have any future plans for presenting at conferences/etc?
<zoopster> cprofitt: uh...I'll plead the fifth on that one
<boredandblogging> zoopster knew all the good places in Barcelona
<zoopster> greg-g: yes...at Lotusphere in Jan and I have presentations lined up at a few cloud conferences in the spring
<pleia2> [VOTE] zoopster for Membership
<MootBot> Please vote on:  zoopster for Membership.
<MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
<MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
<nixternal> +1
<pleia2> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from nixternal. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
<MootBot> +1 received from pleia2. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2
<boredandblogging> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from boredandblogging. 3 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 3
<technoviking> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from technoviking. 4 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 4
<greg-g> +1 # great resource to the community, thanks for your work
<technoviking> great body of work
<MootBot> +1 received from greg-g. 5 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 5
<pleia2> [ENDVOTE]
<MootBot> Final result is 5 for, 0 against. 0 abstained. Total: 5
<nixternal> congrats and welcome zoopster \o/
<Michelle_Qimo> congratulations, zoopster!
<pleia2> congrats zoopster :)
<govatent> HURRAY FOR zoopster!
<zoopster> awesome! thanks everyone!!!
<greg-g> congrats zoopster
<dvz-> grats zoopster
<akgraner> congrats zoopster !!!
<technoviking> conrats zoopster
<swoody> Congrats zoopster :)
<technoviking> congrats zoopster
<nixternal> IngForigua: your turn
<IngForigua> hello everyone
<IngForigua> Hello my name is Diego Armando Forigua (IngForigua), I am electronic engineer, I'm using Linux since 2004, I have used distros like openSUSE, mandriva, redhat, debian, gentoo, archlinux, etc. I'm member of the council of ubuntu Colombia where I lead several projects https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-co-council, I support events, help translating to Spanish, support via IRC, mailing lists and Launchpad. This is my wiki https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ingforigu
<IngForigua> In Ubuntu Colombia Council, I want to spread Ubuntu throughout Colombia and Latin America, I hope that our local team involved more actively writing translating documentation, open week in UGJ
<IngForigua> visit the wiki of the council, the main mission is to spread the 4 subprojects, https://edge.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-co-proyectos
<IngForigua> Ubuntu Colombia and National University, started the repository server, http://matematicas.unal.edu.co/ubuntu/dists/
<IngForigua> Ubuntu Colombia and National University, started the repository server, http://matematicas.unal.edu.co/ubuntu/dists/ and more events
<IngForigua> soory
<greg-g> np
<nixternal> hehe
<IngForigua> My plans for ubuntu 10.04 are: Spanish translations. bug reports, promotion in  Flisol 2010 http://www.flisol.info/ and more events
<technoviking> IngForigua: excellent
<greg-g> IngForigua: looks like a great plan
<nixternal> already working on translations i see...that's awesome
<hollman_> Hello I'm Hollman Enciso, the Ubuntu-co leader, and I really support IngForigua , hes and excellent support in the council, mailing list and IRC
<czam> ingforigua is the most active member of the council ubuntu-co, helping at events and in support.
<hollman_> ohh and a great support in Answers - Launchpad
<c0rtex> Yes, I agree with hollman_
<nixternal> hollman_ and czam, thanks!
<nixternal> and c0rtex :)
<greg-g> IngForigua: Do you have any ideas for improvements to any teams you are a part of?
<c0rtex> IngForigua really deserves being a member
<greg-g> thanks, hollman_ , czam
<nixternal> ooh, arduino fan I see
 * nixternal hugs his arduinos
<IngForigua> I have many ideas to organize monthly meetings with each of the teams lainoamerica
<IngForigua> give workshops
<IngForigua> give support
<greg-g> good deal
<pleia2> [VOTE] IngForigua for Membership
<MootBot> Please vote on:  IngForigua for Membership.
<MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
<MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
<IngForigua> arduino is a openhardware very very good
<nixternal> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from nixternal. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
<pleia2> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from pleia2. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2
<greg-g> +1 # keep of the great work, IngForigua
<MootBot> +1 received from greg-g. 3 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 3
<boredandblogging> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from boredandblogging. 4 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 4
<MootBot> Private +1 vote received. 5 for, 0 against, 0 have abstained. Count is now 5
<technoviking> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from technoviking. 6 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 6
<pleia2> [ENDVOTE]
<MootBot> Final result is 6 for, 0 against. 0 abstained. Total: 6
<czam> Congrats IngForigua :)
<pleia2> congrats and welcome IngForigua :)
<mhall119> congrats
<IngForigua> thanks :)
<Michelle_Qimo> congrats, IngForigua
<greg-g> congrats IngForigua
<nixternal> congrats and welcome IngForigua \o/
<czam> Felicitaciones :D
<dvz-> grats IngForigua !
<akgraner> IngForigua,  Congrats!!! \O/
<hollman_> IngForigua, Felicitaciones sinceras de mi parte  !!!!
<IngForigua> gracias amigos
<IngForigua> :)
<c0rtex> felicitaciones IngForigua, me alegra mucho parce!
 * nixternal hugs his Massimo Banzi autographed Arduino 
<pleia2> robbiew: you're up :)
<hollman_> now, czam I hope you also approve :D
<nixternal> robbiew -1 :p
<robbiew> heh
<robbiew> hi all
<robbiew> My name is Robbie Williamson (https://wiki.ubuntu.com/RobbieWilliamson)
<nixternal> I can do that on IRC, as I think he is the only person in the community bigger than I :)
<robbiew> I've been using Ubuntu for over 5 years
<robbiew> first when I worked for the Linux Technology Center within IBM
<nixternal> robbiew: what made you decide to finally go for membership as you have been around for a while now?
<robbiew> jono busted my chops
<robbiew> lol
<nixternal> haha
<pleia2> hehe
<akgraner> haha
<greg-g> robbiew: I assume I can find the answer to my "what are some specific improvements you would like to see" by just looking at your subscribed/assigned blueprints, eh? :)
<robbiew> ;)
<robbiew> that and then some
<robbiew> I just kept putting it off, tbh
<robbiew> you know...I'll get to that....but first let me check on boot
<greg-g> hah
<robbiew> I did manage to get my little cups-bjnp project off the ground
<robbiew> so I can print to my Canon network printer
<robbiew> stupid proprietary network printing protocol
<nixternal> hehe
<robbiew> when I'm not working like a slave for canonical
<pleia2> [VOTE] robbiew for Membership
<MootBot> Please vote on:  robbiew for Membership.
<MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
<MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
<robbiew> I've been trying to help get the Texas Loco off the floor
<nixternal> +1
<pleia2> +1
 * pleia2 pets MootBot 
<technoviking> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from technoviking. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
<MootBot> +1 received from nixternal. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2
<MootBot> +1 received from pleia2. 3 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 3
<MootBot> Private +1 vote received. 4 for, 0 against, 0 have abstained. Count is now 4
<greg-g> +1 # great work
<MootBot> +1 received from greg-g. 5 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 5
<boredandblogging> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from boredandblogging. 6 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 6
<pleia2> [ENDVOTE]
<MootBot> Final result is 6 for, 0 against. 0 abstained. Total: 6
<nixternal> congrats and welcome robbiew \o/
<pleia2> congrats robbiew :)
<robbiew> :*)
<akgraner> Congrats robbiew !!
<nixternal> haha
<Michelle_Qimo> congrats robbiew
<robbiew> you like me....you really like me!
<dvz-> grats robbiew !
<robbiew> thanks all
<czam> congrats :D
<nixternal> rickspencer3: your turn
 * robbiew returns to cracking to whip on this 10sec boot time
<pleia2> woohoo
<nixternal> go go go
<rickspencer3> hehe
<rickspencer3> hi guys
<rickspencer3> I am Rick Spencer
<technoviking> I bet we can do this Quickly
<rickspencer3> here's my wiki page: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/RickSpencer
<rickspencer3> I've been using Ubuntu since Warty, and I've been the engineering manager for the desktop team since Jaunty
<nixternal> well, let me just say... rickspencer3 is my Canonical hero... he is working really hard with getting us all (Ubuntu and Kubuntu) to love one another and work together....plus he is one of the key people of getting the Kubuntu Netbook Remix off the ground
<nixternal> technoviking: har har
 * mhall119 wonders if nixternal can lose his membership over puns like that
<greg-g> technoviking: nice :)
<rickspencer3> well, I won't take credit for Kubunt Netbook
<rickspencer3> but am happy to have been part of that
<nixternal> well you allowed a couple of us to concentrate on development without having to waste resources looking for other stuff :)
<rickspencer3> hehe
<akgraner> rickspencer3, is awesome - he even puts up with my where's my (insert animal here) on the wallpaper each cycle....
<robbiew> lol
<jono> we all love rickspencer3 :)
<nixternal> rickspencer3: and we even have upstream working hand-in-hand with us :)  you can't beat that
<jono> and robbiew
<rickspencer3> lol
<jono> but not pgraner
<rickspencer3> jono, you liar
<jono> :P
<robbiew> ha!
<pleia2> hah
<jono> I love pgraner :)
<maco> hhaha
<akgraner> jono, glad you do!
<rickspencer3> well, my community contributions include Quickly, of course
<rickspencer3> I'
<rickspencer3> ve also been working on a project called bughugger
<nixternal> what is Quickly? never heard of it :p
<pleia2> [VOTE] rickspencer3 for Membership
<MootBot> Please vote on:  rickspencer3 for Membership.
<MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
<MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
<nixternal> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from nixternal. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
<pleia2> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from pleia2. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2
<MootBot> Private +1 vote received. 3 for, 0 against, 0 have abstained. Count is now 3
<greg-g> +1 # awesome work, especially the community interaction
<MootBot> +1 received from greg-g. 4 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 4
<technoviking> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from technoviking. 5 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 5
<dvz-> wow...the meeting just warped into lightspeed, captain.
<rickspencer3> hehe
<czam> congrats :D
<rickspencer3> gone to plaid
<nixternal> congrats and welcome rickspencer3 \o/
<robbiew> spaceballs humor
<akgraner> Congrats rickspencer3 \o/ that went quickly....
<rickspencer3> chouette!
<mhall119> congrats rickspencer3
<Michelle_Qimo> congrats rickspencer3
<jono> congrats :)
<rickspencer3> thanks all
<maco> congrats
<rickspencer3> just in time too
 * robbiew didn't get congrats from jono....makes note of that
 * rickspencer3 needs to take care of kids
<nixternal> haha
<hollman_> czam, come on .. our big member (ubuntu-co ) :D
<robbiew> ditto
<jono> robbiew, sorry wasnt looking, sir
<ScottK> Here I am, just too late.
<robbiew> uh huh
<greg-g> one second please, we are still wating on one vote
<nixternal> czam: seriously, Carlos Zambrano is my favorite baseball pither! GO CUBS!!! :)
<pleia2> fols, just a reminder - voting is for americas board only (we keep having a private vote not from a member of the board)
<pleia2> folks too
 * robbiew has to run...thanks all
<nixternal> thanks robbiew_ !
<rickspencer3> bye robbiew_
<akgraner> bye robbiew_
<ScottK> congrats rickspencer3
<rickspencer3> thanks ScottK
<akgraner> jono better say bye to him... just sayin'
<jono> by robbiew_
<jono> :)
<rickspencer3> is voting over?
<rickspencer3> I only see that were 5 more me :/
<pleia2> waiting on one more
<nixternal> for you it is you silly ubuntu member you :p
<nixternal> oh, someone fell off the face of the earth it seems
<nixternal> boredandbloggi-1: just do a +1
<pleia2> hehe
<boredandbloggi-1> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from boredandbloggi-1. 6 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 6
<mhall119> lol
<nixternal> hehe
<pleia2> [ENDVOTE]
<MootBot> Final result is 6 for, 0 against. 0 abstained. Total: 6
<pleia2> there we go :)
<rickspencer3> lol
<pleia2> czam: you're up!
<greg-g> alright, officially congrats, rickspencer3
<greg-g> :)
<czam> Hi Everyone  :D   this is my wiki page https://wiki.ubuntu.com/czam
<czam> My name is Carlos Andres Zambrano, mi nickname is czam, I'm a GNU/Linux User since 2004, I've tested Ututo, Mandriva and Debian, but Since 2007 I've used Ubuntu, I love Ubuntu :)
<czam> I'm very active in the Colombian Loco Team https://launchpad.net/~carlos.zambrano
<czam> I've spend a lot of time in IRC channel (#ubuntu-co #ubuntu-uy and #ubuntu-es), giving support and teaching others
<czam> I've participated in many translations in launchpad and in guides, also support in answers from spanish and english.
<hollman> I'm very active in the Colombian Loco Team ----> absolutely +1 to czam
<czam> I am participating in a project called zoociedad for a free wireless network to help the community, for the services is being used Ubuntu server.
<czam> Currently I'm working as a Network Administrator, Moving the company to Ubuntu 8.04LTS ;) ,
<czam> My future plans: I would like to integrate more teams to Latin America, to grow the Ubuntu community
 * nixternal wonders if the goals of south america include "making every citizen an ubuntu member"
<czam> Continue contributing with Ubuntu, become in an oficial translator into spanish and in bug report. organize local events and integrate into the community
<czam> and y would like to help local schools to implement edubuntu with LSTP
<mhall119> nixternal: should be the goal of every continent, no?
 * itnet7 itnet7 thinks SA is on their way!!
<nixternal> good point, but south america is actually doing it I think :)
<IngForigua> czam is my best friend, works for ubuntu rather, his translations and his answers are best, he is perfect candidate
<mhall119> nixternal: Florida is doing it's part tonight
<nixternal> woohoo!
<pleia2> czam: how long have you been working in the ubuntu community?
<czam> pleia2, I've been working since 2007 when I started with feisty
<pleia2> great :)
<hollman> czam is currently a great member of our community, with ingforigua have been in much of our events and have been the protagonists ... excellent speakers etc ...
<pleia2> [VOTE] czam for Membership
<MootBot> Please vote on:  czam for Membership.
<MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
<MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
<greg-g> great list of contributions, czam
<pleia2> great work czam, great wiki page, great testimonials!
<pleia2> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from pleia2. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
<technoviking> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from technoviking. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2
<greg-g> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from greg-g. 3 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 3
<nixternal> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from nixternal. 4 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 4
<nixternal> sorry
<nixternal> had to let the dog out
<boredandblogging> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from boredandblogging. 5 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 5
<pleia2> [ENDVOTE]
<MootBot> Final result is 5 for, 0 against. 0 abstained. Total: 5
<nixternal> congrats and welcome czam \o/
<pleia2> congrats czam :)
<greg-g> congrats czam!
 * czam feels so happy :D
<pleia2> Michelle_Qimo: you're up!
<MagicFab> Bravo czam :) glad you made it
<dvz-> grats czam !
<Michelle_Qimo> Hi everyone!  I'm Michelle, my wiki is here https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Michelle_Qimo_4_Kids
<kuadrosx> felicitaciones czam
<hollman> czam good job Ubuntu-co rocks !!!!
<itnet7> good job czam congrats!!
 * MagicFab serves Aguardiente del Valle :D
<czam> MagicFab, hollman, kuadrosx, inet7, dvz-, gracias :D
<akgraner> czam,  congrats!!!
<hollman> ahora si me voy a celebrar por czam e IngForigua  ...
<IngForigua> Exclente
<IngForigua> viva colombia
<Michelle_Qimo> Thanks for having me, everyone.  I'm Michelle, and mhall119 and I run Qimo & our local charity, QuinnCo.
<govatent> I would like to say that Michelle_Qimo does a great job in our loco and the project she works on.
<govatent> projects*
<itnet7> Michelle_Qimo has been instrumental in organizing and leading build days for various people in need, where she provides the Machines, Monitors, and Mice to them through Quinnco
<FFEMTcJ> Michelle_Qimo might as well be the Florida LoCo Team mom.. She hosted 57 of us at her house for our Karmic Release/Team Birthday party, as well as being very active on IRC.
<nixternal> 57 in a house for a party? holy smokes
<govatent> I second FFEMTcJ
<greg-g> wow, 57 people for a party? you rock
<Michelle_Qimo> yep, 57 of us
<zoopster> Michelle_Qimo cracks the whip in the FL Loco - she rocks and makes a mean lasagna
<Michelle_Qimo> mostly families, it was amazing
<mhall119> nixternal: mostly in the back yard, thankfully the weather cooperated
<greg-g> I would be completely overwhelmed
<govatent> yup. we had lots of ubuntu stuff going on. it was fun
<FFEMTcJ> Ya'll should have seen all the cookies!
<akgraner> Michelle_Qimo, rocks!!
<Michelle_Qimo> The team is amazing, and I'm blessed to call them my friends.
<dvz-> can we have her make each loco a batch of Ubuntu Logo Shaped cookies?
<govatent> and yes, she makes great cookies
<dvz-> :-P
<Michelle_Qimo> dvz-: come to a party, I'll make you a cookie
<maco> dvz-: is called the Circle of Friends
<nixternal> "My dreams and aspirations are to encourage more families to become involved with the Loco as a whole."   <- I think that is an awesome goal
<zoopster> dvz-: watch out..she will do it.
<mhall119> nixternal: of the 57 people, only 22 were techies, Michelle_Qimo got the rest of their families involved
<govatent> she does a great job reaching that goal i would say.
<dvz-> maco: i know, i had visions of a cookie cutter..o.O
<crashsystems> Michelle_Qimo is an awesome part of the Florida loco team. She brings a set of skills to the group that are very much needed (organization, english-fu, just to name a few).
<maco> Michelle_Qimo: pssst tell them what you told us today in #ubuntu-women
<Michelle_Qimo> maco - which/
<nixternal> great testimonials, great contributions, great set of future goals
<Michelle_Qimo> ?
<maco> Michelle_Qimo: about all the machines you were delivering today
<greg-g> wow, these are great testimonials, Michelle_Qimo. Both on your wiki and here tonight.
<Michelle_Qimo> Aah!  Just took delivery of 50 new computers
<maco> dvz-: i would *love* a CoF cookie cutter
<Michelle_Qimo> going to seniors in high school, going to college with a new computer
<nixternal> ooh, that would be cool maco
<mhall119> with Ubuntu on them
<pleia2> [VOTE] Michelle_Qimo for Membership
<MootBot> Please vote on:  Michelle_Qimo for Membership.
<MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
<MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
<pleia2> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from pleia2. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
<boredandblogging> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from boredandblogging. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2
<greg-g> +1 # no reservations
<MootBot> +1 received from greg-g. 3 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 3
<pleia2> now I want cookies
<greg-g> haha
<technoviking> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from technoviking. 4 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 4
<Michelle_Qimo> pleia2: I'll make you a cookie, too
<dvz-> definitely!
<pleia2> :)
<pleia2> Michelle_Qimo: yay!
<IdleOne> !cookie | pleia2
<ubottu> pleia2: Wow! You're such a great helper, you deserve a cookie!
<mhall119> pleia2: I'm sure there will be cookies at the women's get together yall are planning
<itnet7> lol pleia2 ! Don't say that she will make you a care package !!
<pleia2> itnet7: hehe
<Michelle_Qimo> I will!
<akgraner> pleia2, I want cookies now too....:-/
<nixternal> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from nixternal. 5 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 5
<pleia2> [ENDVOTE]
<MootBot> Final result is 5 for, 0 against. 0 abstained. Total: 5
<govatent> CONGRATS COOKIES LADY!!!!!! ( Michelle_Qimo )
<FFEMTcJ> Flordia LoCo representing tonight! 3 new members!
<pleia2> congrats and welcome Michelle_Qimo :)
<nixternal> oops, I didn't see you kick off the votes
<mhall119> yay Michelle_Qimo!
<Michelle_Qimo> Thanks guys!
<nixternal> I was looking at Ubuntu Cookies :)
<pleia2> hehe
<nixternal> congrats and welcome Michelle_Qimo \o/
<FFEMTcJ> lol nixternal
<dvz-> grats Michelle_Qimo !
 * MagicFab hugs Michelle_Qimo 
<cprofitt> congrats Michelle_Qimo
<boredandblogging> Michelle_Qimo: keep up the great work!
<itnet7> Congratulations!!!!
 * maco hugs Michelle_Qimo
<nixternal> holy smokes...I made Tuna Casserole and it smells so good..it is calling my name...one more to go!
<akgraner> Michelle_Qimo, congrats.....
<Michelle_Qimo> *squee!*
<greg-g> congrats Michelle_Qimo
<dvz-> tuna casserole?!  *drools*
<dvz-> can i have some?
<dvz-> :-D
<pleia2> dvz-: you're up :)
<dvz-> I'm digitalvectorz (dvz-). Wiki: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/digitalvectorz
<FFEMTcJ> dvz-: your supposed to bribe them, not them bribe you
<dvz-> I'm a recent college grad with a b.s. in math and programming.  I've programming on and off since around 12 y/o and have been using linux since sophomore year in college - 2007.
<dvz-> I've been a full-time ubuntu since 8.04.  I'm an active part of the Beginner's Team and the Development focus group, as well as a member of the Ohio LoCo/NE Ohio ReLoCo.
<dvz-> Plans during the 10.04 - Breaking it. (debugging, triaging within my abilities, bug jam)
<dvz-> Currently in the process of setting up the 10.04 global bug jam event with the NEOhio Reloco at my alma mater, exposing the ACM club and those on the west side of Cleveland to ubuntu/linux.
<greg-g> uh oh, Ohio? I'm not sure if I can vote for you, I work at the U of Michigan ;)
<dvz-> greg-g: I don't go to OSU :-P
<greg-g> ahh, good deal then
<itnet7> lol greg-g
<dvz-> ;-)
<nixternal> GO BLUE!
<nixternal> oops, didn't mean to say that out loud
<dvz-> but greg-g , in the ubuntu community, we're all family :D
<greg-g> so, you have a solid programming background, any thoughts on MOTU participation?
<greg-g> dvz-: that is very very true :)
 * nixternal has fond memories of OLF last year where a guy screamed GO BLUE! at OSU for a Pumpkin donut
<pleia2> nixternal will do anything for a donut
<pleia2> oh, some guy :)
<dvz-> greg-g: I'd like to get myself to the point of getting involved with MOTU...at this point, I'm still breaking the internals of linux ...but eventually, that's a short term goal
<nixternal> pleia2: ya, but that still holds true for me though :)
<nixternal> dvz-: since you are a hacker, you could always help with upstream code too :)
 * nixternal notes to anyone listening/watching - you do not need to know how to code in order to do packaging
<pleia2> dvz-: what events have you participated in with the ohio team?
<dvz-> nixternal: i'm always interested in learning about whatever code necessary, whether it be hacking at it, trying to break for security, or just developing...it's all an art and an interest
<nixternal> awesome!
<dvz-> pleia2: october, paultag introduced the reloco idea, which made it more feasable for me to actually participate with the loco, and after that we had the bugjam for karmic at paul's uni
<nixternal> groovy testimonials
<itnet7> you have done some really good work so far dvz- !
<dvz-> i attended that, and then attended an ubuntu hour we had here about a month ago?
<dvz-> thanks itnet7 :-)
<technoviking> I must go, sorry, but +1 from me
<dvz-> thanks technoviking
<greg-g> I may have missed this, but how long have you been directly participating with Ubuntu community teams?
<nixternal> vote!
<nixternal> greg-g: I see over a year in various areas
<greg-g> cool
<Renard_D-Argent> I am here to support dvz-.  He does a wonderful job with ubuntu beginners team. He is a true asset to the team
<dvz-> greg-g: i stumbled in the beginners team dev around may 08
<technoviking> night all
<itnet7> gnight technoviking
<nixternal> doh...browser just crashed
<nixternal> g'nite technoviking
<pleia2> [VOTE] dvz- for Membership
<MootBot> Please vote on:  dvz- for Membership.
<MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
<MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
<nixternal> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from nixternal. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
<pleia2> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from pleia2. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2
<greg-g> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from greg-g. 3 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 3
<nixternal> boredandblogging: ?
<itnet7> +1 # on technoviking's behalf
<MootBot> +1 received from itnet7. 4 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 4
<boredandblogging> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from boredandblogging. 5 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 5
<pleia2> [ENDVOTE]
<MootBot> Final result is 5 for, 0 against. 0 abstained. Total: 5
<nixternal> congrats and welcome dvz- \o/
<pleia2> congrats and welcome dvz- :)
<dvz-> thanks everyone :-)
<nixternal> heh
<Michelle_Qimo> congrats dvz-!
<akgraner> dvz-, congrats!!  :-)
<itnet7> congratulations dvz- !!!
<greg-g> congrats dvz-
<IknowEverything> !ops
<ubottu> Help! Seveas, Hobbsee, LjL, ompaulafk, Keybuk, mdz, sabdfl, janimo, ogra, mdke, dholbach, or jono
<Toluxero> congratz dvz-
<nixternal> IknowEverything: why?
<greg-g> why did you do that IknowEverything, we are in a meeting right now
<dvz-> dank Michelle_Qimo akgraner itnet7 greg-g pleia2 nixternal Renard_D-Argent  Toluxero  :-)
<pleia2> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 19:18.
<pleia2> thanks everyone :)
<Michelle_Qimo> Thanks again, everyone.
<nixternal> stupid channel settings..I no longer have ops in here
<greg-g> thanks to everyone who came out tonight!
<nixternal> yes, thanks everyone!!!
<nixternal> congrats to all of the new members!
<IknowEverything> i am the mighty cytotoxic t cell
<itnet7> thanks to all of you for hanging in and finishing up the list!!
 * nixternal goes and eats...I will catch up in a bit
<Toluxero> nixternal, thx
 * mhall119 reading akgraner's tweets, nixternal really should be careful what he says around her
<nixternal> ya, I know... I was told she is the female version of me, so her day will come!
<akgraner> muahahaha.....
<itnet7> lol
<Michelle_Qimo> lol
<greg-g> take care everyone, thanks again
<Renard_D-Argent> Time I left also.   Bye.  Congratulations to all =]
<freeflying> @schedule shanghai
<ubottu> Sorry, the @schedule function has been disabled. To see the schedule for meetings see http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar. To see the current time in another time zone, use @now
<freeflying> @now shanghai
<ubottu> Current time in Asia/Shanghai: December 08 2009, 17:56:52
<elky> i was wondering myself
<persia> freeflying: Next meeting is Asia/Oceania RMB in about 1 minute.
<amachu> hi
<freeflying> persia: sigh, got a appointment conflict, sorry about it
<persia> Rationale for the bot having a disabled schedule is that it couldn't handle the way google calendar does repeated meetings, and the scheduling widget in the version of the CMS on the fridge was sufficiently painful to use that it didn't scale.
<persia> freeflying: Such is life sometimes.
<freeflying> persia: will talk to you later, sorry again :)
<amachu> persia, elky Hi
<amachu> lifeless, ziroday: Hello
<elky> amachu, lifeless requires a colon after his nick if you want the ping to work
<elky> lifeless: pingading?
<elky> lets see that we have our candidates before we get too persistant
<amachu> themuso, zakame, belutz aren't here today
<lifeless> hi
<amachu> humphreybc ?
<elky> he's not in the channel
<elky> the nick isnt' registered either
<persia> Let's wait until 10 past before giving up though.
<amachu> elky, yes.
<elky> he's not in the -nz channel either
<amachu> ziroday: pingggg..
<ziroday> ziroday: pong!
<amachu> so your first presence with all of us together..
<amachu> isn't it?
<ziroday> amachu: but I have a feeling you've got the wrong person :)
<elky> amachu, you're thinking freeflying?
<amachu> elky, yep
<amachu> zed up little
<elky> mind you, I think ziroday would be a perfect victi^Wcandidate for our board.
<amachu> freeflying, hey
<ziroday> elky: hehe
<persia> On an unrelated note, what do others think about dropping indus from the candidate list?
<elky> persia, i agree.
<amachu> ya thats fair
<persia> Perhaps with a "three months without an appearance" as a rationale?
<ziroday> I believe he is in #ubuntu right now
<elky> persia, he's been trying at all the RMBs anyway i believe
<ziroday> (if this is the same indus)
<elky> ziroday, yes, it is.
<persia> ziroday: likely the same person, but it's been three months, so I'd want to see some preparation and anticipation, or a renewed request, rather than pulling someone out of other stuff and then asking questions like "where have you been all this time".
<ziroday> persia: of course, I can completely understand your point of view
<persia> (or "Do you have anyone to support you?"..."Not today: I forgot it was happening now")
<elky> persia, agreed.
<persia> amachu: How do you feel about that?
<elky> in the absence of candidates (and yes, even quorum), may we discuss our board's continued world domination^W^Wexpansion?
<persia> I'm up for that.
<persia> (but I don't want to try to dominate too much: we already have *plenty* of timezones)
<popey> have you all seen the mail about merging the RMB mailing lists?
<popey> not everyone has replied
<elky> popey, i didn't no. i like the idea though.
 * persia is very bad about mail, and puts hunting for that on the list for real-soon-now
<popey> thanks elky
<amachu> persia, I agree
<popey> nobody has voiced a negative opinion / stance on it yet
<elky> popey, it's hard to keep up on the current practices when we never talk to each other
<popey> exactly
<elky> or, when talking to each other is more difficult than it needs be
<amachu> popey, yes. I need to reply. Have opinions about it
<persia> Aside from keeping up, it would help build consistency, and maybe avoid some of the candidates who apply to a selection of boards, etc.
<elky> persia, well the keeping up problem is half of the consistency problem :P
<persia> elky: Put that way, I agree.  I had previously assigned a different semantic value to "keeping up".
<lifeless> ETMI
<elky> i believe it'd also assist with staffing issues too. if we could know when boards are short staffed (like the americas was this morning, and this here board is now) then we can help each other out
<elky> lifeless: i am not familiar with this acronym.
<lifeless> elky: ERROR: Too Much Information
<elky> haha
<popey> sorry, didn't mean to derail your meeting/discussion, just wanted to remind everyone :)
<elky> popey, tis fine. purposeful discussion is better than the alternative.
<persia> popey: rather thanks for mentioning it.  Until something happens otherwise, in-meeting discussion is a lovely forum for interboard discussion.
<lifeless> popey: meeting?
<lifeless> :P
<popey> i gave you two options, choose the other one :)
<lifeless> I think we need a candidate for that
 * lifeless returns to blowing things up; sms me if someone magically appears
<persia> Anyway, on the domination topic: did I miss a submitted nomination that needs comment?
<elky> mkay
<popey> there's someone on the emea list who seems keen to be approved (Menza) have asked him if he's around and can attend your meeting if that's okay
<popey> or are you not quorate?
<elky> persia, nope. i propose that i will later this evening nominate someone though.
<persia> popey: We're not entirely quorate, but we have no formal business before us today.
<popey> ok
<elky> popey, i could sms lifeless: but you could also make up the quorate if you want :P
<elky> since i found out this morning that it is permitted to do so
<popey> true :)
<popey> menza doesn't seem to be around right now, so never mind, we (EMEA) have a meeting next week, he can wait till then
<persia> elky: I think you should.  My memory is that we'd like to have 7-9 regularly active members on the board, and that the procedure we're using is that we accept nominations (to the ML) from any source, privately research, discuss with the candidate, etc., and then vote in a meeting to recommend the person be added to the team to the CC if we like them.
<popey> thats what we're about to do for the EMEA board where we are a person down
<elky> actually, i have 2 candidates in mind, so i shall commence scribing some nominations
 * persia likes the idea of more nominations
<amachu> persia: elky: zakame & belutz seldom turns out
<amachu> should we do something about that?
<persia> amachu: True, but I'm not sure we have a procedure for dropping members.
 * elky looks to popey
<amachu> persia, I fear we do not..
<persia> Further, I'm not sure we really want one until we reach the point where the board is full enough that we have a nomination that would be a good replacement for one of the inactive folk, rather than being a nomination for an additional member.
<popey> hmm, not sure about how you drop members
<amachu> persia, but their presence or absence decide the quorum
<popey> contact them and ask them to step down gracefully?
<persia> OK.  Let's set up a procedure.  Here's a first pass:
<persia> If a board member believes that another board member is insufficiently active, they may send an email to the possibly inactive board member (copying the RMB ML) asking if they wish to continue to be on the board, and whether they expect to be attending meetings in the future.
<elky> popey, is there an RMB procedures document anywhere?
<amachu> popey, can be done..
<persia> Once consensus is reached on the mailing list, a request may or may not be forwarded to the CC to make any potentially necessary adjustments.
<popey> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Membership/RegionalBoards is all I know of
<persia> Does that make sense to everyone?
<popey> that sounds reasonable, yes
<amachu> persia, yes
<amachu> persia, i remember we infact did that once, reminding them..
<persia> amachu: We did remind them, but we didn't have any explicit consequences of a lack of response, etc.
<amachu> persia, i understand
<persia> I like elky's idea of documenting some standard procedures for things like adding members, removing members, etc.  That gives us some justification for actions, rather than leaving us liable to accusations of unfair behaviour.
<elky> popey, do you mind carrying this to the CC? i think it's an important followup to the recent membership guideline revisit
<lifeless> so
<lifeless> I think some of this is unneeded
<lifeless> See the CoC 1.1
<lifeless> which talks about leadership / graceful step downs etc
<lifeless> or is it a specific leadership CoC, I don't recall precisely.
<elky> there does exist a leadership coc if that's what you're asking
<popey> is there anything that needs carrying to the cc right now?
<elky> but i believe it specifies what should happen, not necessarily the process by which it should happen if it is not followed (intentionally or not)
<persia> I don't see anything in either the CoC or the LCoC that provides for handling cases where someone isn't stepping down gracefully.
<amachu> keep discussing, will follow up from the log.. i have few minutes of work off-line..
<popey> initially you guys need to figure out who is/isnt going to be/continue to be on your team, which is entirely internal to you for now
<popey> persia: we (cc and loco council) have dealt with that before
<lifeless> persia: it makes it clear whats expected, and as in any case when someone isn't doing what is expected, that should be discussed and rectified one way or another
<popey> i would say first steps is you contact them, if they refuse to step down you discuss their terms for continuing to work on the team, and if things get messy, contact the cc
<persia> popey: So should cases where people are protractedly absent without notice be brought to the CC as LCoC violations?
<lifeless> persia: I don't think detailed processes help with doing it well
<popey> persia: not initially, no. I'd say first steps is attempt to deal with it internally
<lifeless> persia: talk to them and if they don't ack & rectify (e.g. by standing down or showing up), then yes.
<popey> lifeless: +1
<persia> lifeless: I agree, I just find that documented processes help avoid a perception of persecution.
<lifeless> hell, I miss nearly 40% or so of meetings... and then show up for ones on the off tuesdays :P
<popey> feel free to cc the cc in your mail to keep us in the loop though
<lifeless> persia: My experience with documented processes is that they can easily become 'weapons' used to persecute...
<persia> lifeless: But you always apologise for it, and typically respond to SMS if we need you for quorum.
<lifeless> persia: avoiding perception is done best by being transparent and open
<persia> lifeless: Well, it's perfectly possible to persecute someone transparently and openly, if one wishes, although that strays from the topic.
<lifeless> :)
<lifeless> persia: thats true, but at least then perception == reality.
<persia> true
<persia> Anyway, back to the matter at hand: if anyone has nominations for members, send them in.
<persia> Anyone want to volunteer to send queries to our typically absent members seeing if they want to remain on the board?
<elky> persia, ok
 * persia has lost context, and fails to understand "ok"
<elky> persia, i will email the absentees
<elky> i have also just mailed the nominations
<persia> elky: Cool.  Thanks!
<lifeless> gnight
 * asac o/
<persia> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 07:00. The chair is persia.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
 * JamieBennett is here
<persia> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileTeam/Meeting/2009/20091208
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileTeam/Meeting/2009/20091208
<dyfet> is here
<ogra> mooop
<davidm> hello
 * GrueMaster is almost awake
<persia> [TOPIC] Activity Reporting
<MootBot> New Topic:  Activity Reporting
<persia> Who owns this one?
<asac> JamieBennett: StevenK: prod
<asac> me
<ogra> persia, whats that ?
<JamieBennett> asac: read above (I'm here)
<asac> oh
<asac> ;)
<persia> asac: Go ahead.
<asac> so ....
<asac> i would like to propose to align our activity reporting to the public meeting
<ogra> argh
<ogra> we had that
<asac> also to stop JamieBennett and others to hunt down folks inifinitely
<ogra> and the meeting went on for hours
<asac> i would propose to publish meeting minutes together
<asac> with the activity reports
<asac> so basically: on monday, send out meeting reminder and to send acitvity reports (or put them directly top the meeting page)
<persia> I'd be happy to go back to that.  It looks like https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileTeam/TeamReport hasn't been updated since April.
<asac> and on tuesday after meeting send out report ... if folks miss the deadline
<asac> they just get a note: didnt submit a report
<asac> ogra: doesnt mean that we discuss all the ARs in meeting
<asac> just that we put them on the same wiki page and then send them to lists together with meeting minute
<ogra> what i would really like to keep is the reporting period from mon to fri ... if we dont discuss every single AR here thats fine
<asac> in any case ...we definitly need a hard deadline
<ogra> we have that
<asac> ogra: well. its not really fair to let folks ping you etc.
<ogra> monday latest atm
<ogra> asac, it didnt work without
<ogra> thats why we started it
<asac> yes. but splitting stuff up means we have two reporting mails etc. feels suboptimal
<ogra> splitting ?
<asac> yes. we have meeting -> report minutes
<davidm> AR's and this meeting
<ogra> you mean AR vs minutes ?
<asac> we have activity reports -> send another report
<ogra> ah
<persia> Reporting and minutes serve different purposes.
<asac> its just another administrative act on top
<ogra> yes, i agree here
<ogra> but we have a deadline (that actually matches fine with the meeting)
<ogra> all i want to keep is the reporting period for ARs
<asac> if its really a problem we can keep reporting from monday-friday
<ogra> mon-fri ... sending out latest on monday
<asac> and report that on monday night
<JamieBennett> sounds good
<JamieBennett> (and pretty much as it is now)
<ogra> well, generally send out on fri evening ... but give a soft deadline until mon
<asac> ok so based on that comments i would suggest to:
<persia> Well, except we ought to keep the TeamReport page updated ...
<plars> yeah mon-fri was very convenient, before when we cut it off midweek, there were lots more problems with days slipping, not realizing what day it is currently, etc
<ogra> yeah
<asac>  * send AR or add your AR to meeting by end of work day MON (covering mon-fri week before)
<asac> * after meeting send out either two or one report with minutes and ARs
<JamieBennett> works for me
<asac> * also: one ping after meeting if AR isnt on wiki is enough
<persia> I'd really prefer two.  I like reading meeting minutes when I miss a meeting to catch up on items that were worth discussion, and I don't like attending meetings that end up being mostly reporting.
<persia> I have no issues with aligned schedules though.
<asac> persia: in the desktop team it worked quite well. on top of the report mail there would be the minutes for quick consumption and then below are the detailed AR
<asac> but splitting works as it doesn add much extra work
<asac> on whoever sends them
<persia> asac: Externally I found the desktop team reports fairly unhelpful to read to keep track of items of discussion.
<asac> as long as they are aligned and there is a hard deadline
<asac> persia: yes. desktop team didnt do well adding minutes
<asac> that would be better as we care about minutes (desktop team mostly send agenda + AR)
<persia> Yeah, which means reading the meeting logs.  We've had mixed quality minutes, but I think publishing them is useful.
<asac> ok ... and last but not least if you send your AR by mail, remember to send to JamieBennett and someone else (i would suggest me)
<ogra> asac, see the other chan ...
<asac> helps avoiding single point of failure etc. and delegating in case of jamie is on vacation etc.
<ogra> ++
<asac> cool
<asac> so everyone is fine with that? (details can be discussed later)
<persia> OK.  Anything else on this topic?
<plars> the changes need to be documented on the wiki page describing this
<plars> which I can't seem to locate at the moment
<ogra> persia, knows it :)
<persia> [TOPIC] http://piware.de/workitems/mobile/lucid/report.html
<MootBot> New Topic:  http://piware.de/workitems/mobile/lucid/report.html
<ogra> he has a wiki copy in his head usually :)
<asac> more importantly is probably the alpha2 one
<persia> Especially because I've been reading all the Mobile wiki stuff again as part of my cleanup plan :)
<ogra> yeah
<persia> asac: Do you have a link for that?
<asac> [LINK] http://piware.de/workitems/mobile/lucid-alpha2/report.html
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://piware.de/workitems/mobile/lucid-alpha2/report.html
<asac> on the wiki ;)
<asac> so we are a bit above the trendline
<asac> GrueMaster: anything is blocking you?
<ogra> oh we are such slackers !!
<GrueMaster> Not really.  I had a great patch of emails from the LSB guys.
<asac> GrueMaster: especially on the suspend/resume blueprint there are lots of "define the test case" work items whicch probably can be done in parallel
<asac> like as a side job if you feel like lib spec isnt moving or you wait for inspiration etc. ;)
<asac> ok
<GrueMaster> Bear with me here, my DSL is cutting out.
<asac> GrueMaster: sure. just wanted to point that there are plenty of work items that can be done easily if you want to get rid of some :) ...
<GrueMaster> I am focusing on the lib spec mainly because it is a higher priority and has a deadline of A2.
<asac> GrueMaster: suspend resume testplan is also on alpha-2 list
<asac> at least a majority of work items should be done by then
<GrueMaster> Yes, but it is for starting testing.  The lib test is supposed to be deployed by A2 and finished.
<asac> right.
<asac> ok
<GrueMaster> Besides, a lot of the items in the suspend testing are going to have to be done at the vendor, as we don't have the test equipment to test fully.
<davidm> GrueMaster, what are we missing?
<GrueMaster> A lot of the comments that came up on this during UDS were from community members not familiar with actual hardware testing.
<asac> GrueMaster: well. all those "define the testcases" should be easy to do before we reacht that point. if there is something that we cannot fill in, we can document that
<asac> and escalate to vendors. but for that we need to know what
<plars> I don't think we can always assume vendors have it either
<GrueMaster> Things like sound chip power levels, SDIO power on suspend, etc.
<GrueMaster> But I'll review it soon and get it out.
<persia> The important thing is to document the test cases that need to be checked.  At that point, finding people with hardware is possible (if difficult).
<asac> GrueMaster: right. thats why i would like to get all the definitions done soon. then we can check what needs to be dropped/can be done
<plars> I think the idea was to prioritize, and leave things open where necessary due to hardware constraints.  Very possible that *somebody* has the hardware and can test it
<davidm> GrueMaster, please send me a list of hardware that we are missing, for suspend testing
<asac> yes. the spec consists of: a) filling in a gross definition for each suggested testcase; b) evaluating feasibility; c) prioritization; d) implement automization or add manual instructions to a testplan
<GrueMaster> davidm: Some of the tests discussed in the UDS session would require scopes and probes to monitor power levels at some of the components.
<ogra> right, we're waiting for vendor info here
<asac> GrueMaster: what would be great would be if you go through the testcases suggested and add your ideas on how that can be tested to the summary column
<plars> GrueMaster: would a kill-a-watt for the whole board's power usage suffice?
<asac> and if you see that things are no feasible, also note that down
<GrueMaster> plars: how would that work for Dove?
<GrueMaster> Or for the babbage?
<plars> GrueMaster: plugs in like a wall outlet, you just plug your power supply into it
<blackxored> hello
<GrueMaster> They both draw little power to begin with.
<blackxored> there's a DMB meeting here today?
<ogra> blackxored, cureently this is the mobile team meeting
<JamieBennett> blackxored:  http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar
<asac> ok. so besides from that. anyone else has problems with stuff for alpha-2 already?
<GrueMaster> At any rate, I have currently been focusing on lib conversion, but will try to take a look at the suspend/resume spec this week.
<asac> thanks a lot.
 * ogra has enough probs with A1 ... 
<JamieBennett> asac: Only MIR's that need to be pushed (talked already about these)
<ogra> so i wont even start thinking about A2 yet
<asac> seems we are making good progress though. minus the current image issues
<ogra> right
<asac> JamieBennett: yes. i have to check if i am allowed to process the MIRs from our team today. otherwise i have to trade them ;)
<ogra> but without these solved we wont make A2 :)
<asac> ack
<asac> what can we do about the builder situation? nothing?
<asac> well libdap could be investigated
<ogra> ok, so did we move to image stuff now ?
<asac> is that the prooved reason for our issues?
<asac> yeah sorry
<ogra> libdap is my smallest headdache
<asac> lets start topic
<asac> persia: ^^
<ogra> yeah
<asac> ;)
<persia> [TOPIC] ARM Image Status
<MootBot> New Topic:  ARM Image Status
<ogra> let me give a short overview
<ogra> so a) buildds are committing suicide once a day
<ogra> b) that got us over 100 pkgs behing
<ogra> *behind
<ogra> c) that makes the archive be out of sync massively for armel
<ogra> d) that prevents us from buiolding livefs images
<persia> ugh!
<ogra> the livefs builder has a bug with mksquashfs
<asac> just livefs images?
<ogra> this issue can only be investigated if the archive is in sync
<ogra> i cant reproduce the issue in local builds
<asac> anyone has the same hardware that the builders use?
<ogra> and it is suspected that the pegatron kernel on the livefs build machine causes it
<asac> maybe we can reproduce it there?
<ogra> on the build machine the kernel can not be replaced
<ogra> so one option would be to replace the livefs builder with a babbage board
<ogra> but we dont have any spare ones atm, davidm ? do we ?
<JamieBennett> davidm: what is the fate of the 2.0 and 2.5 I have?
<ogra> so we could use a karmic kernel with lucid chroot instead of a pagatron kernel
<asac> anyone has a pegatron and can reproduce that mksquashfs issue?
<ogra> asac, we dontz have peagatrons in the team
<asac> feels a bit like bug. how did those become buildds?
<ogra> asac, and even if you can reproduce, what does it help, if its caused by a kernel you cant replace you cant fix it
<ogra> asac, it was the only HW available
<asac> well. it would allow us to verify that its really the kernel
<ogra> i'm trying to verify that with lamont atm
<asac> ogra: right. but why has no team member that hardware?
<persia> The buildds got swapped a couple times as random hardware became available.  Something like that demoed at UDS would be a buildd once it's available in quantity.
<ogra> asac, because its a limited amount we have ... all of them are used for buildds
<ogra> persia, that *are* our buildds
<asac> yeah. just feels like a risk if only lamont can work on those.
<ogra> (the things demoed at UDS)
<davidm> asac, ogra I have a pegatron unit if someone wants to walk me through a test I'm happy to do so
<ogra> davidm, well, create a lucid chroot and run mksquashfs in it on any dir you like /usr or so
<ogra> we can do that off meeting
<asac> ok. lets do that after meeting: so a) check if lamont can verify that its kernel; b) try to get ogra a remote ssh or something on davidm pegatron?
<asac> would that be the best way to approach this?
<ogra> davidm, if its the case that the pegatron kernel is at fault, can we get IS a babbage board ?
<davidm> ogra, who do we remove the babbage board from?
<ogra> davidm, as i said above, i cant reproduce the issue on a karmic bababge
<ogra> davidm, JamieBennett has two and is in UK
<JamieBennett> ogra: two *spare*
<ogra> davidm, and afaik plars and dyfet sent theirs back ?
<davidm> what does getting ONE babbage board do for us?
<dyfet> I had sent a b 2.5 to Lexington
<ogra> JamieBennett, wasnt one fried ?
<JamieBennett> lool gave me one
<ogra> davidm, we can replace the one machine with issues
<plars> mine is boxed up, ready to go when ready
<ogra> davidm, we only have one livefs builder
<asac> davidm: the mksquashfs bug is a problem on the image builder only
<asac> so if its really a pegatron specific issue we can fi that by just replacing that
<ogra> davidm, though we discussed before that we want a second one ...
<asac> (is that an accurate description)?
<ogra> asac, right
<ogra> squashfs is currently only created on one machine
<ogra> though given that that takes 90min lool and i proposed to have a second one long ago
<ogra> because we at least build two squashfses per run ... meaning armel takes 3h for a single build
<ogra> having that parallelized would cut time in half
<ogra> though thats a different issue, for now we need images *at all*
<davidm> ogra, I'll set up my babbage so you can ssh into it, let you know when it's up
<ogra> s/babbage/pegatron/ i hope :)
<JamieBennett> :)
<asac> he needs access to a pegatron
<ogra> it works on my babbage as far as i can tell
<davidm> s/babbage/pegatron/
<davidm> I don't have a babbage
<persia> [ACTION] davidm and ogra to investigate mksquashfs issue on pegatron board
<MootBot> ACTION received:  davidm and ogra to investigate mksquashfs issue on pegatron board
<ogra> (which is not far, since i cant actually build a rootfs chroot without the archive being in sync)
<ogra> but mksquashfs on a non chroot dir doesnt show any issues
<ogra> anyway, if we dont get these two issues fixed we wont have A1
<persia> ogra: Couldn't you run the lucid mksquashfs against the karmic archive?
<ogra> persia, works fine, tried already
<persia> Darn.
<ogra> also mksquashfs against /usr in a lucid chroot works fine
<asac> ok. so based on the outcome we decide whether we want to ship JamieBennett his board to london?
<asac> or do we want that anyway?
<ogra> all on babbage though
<ogra> the error it spits out on the buildd is "illegal instruction"
<ogra> the pegatron kernel (and the squashfs module) is built ARMv5 .... i.e. jaunty
<ogra> so i suspect the userspace squashfs-tools buolt for v7 dont get along with the module built for v5
<asac> ok. i assume one option would be to build mksquasfs locally with old arm flags?
<ogra> and we have no way to change the kernel on these devices
<asac> anyway. thats what should be done by the ACTION item
<ogra> asac, that could cause broken squashfses ... you need to unpack them again
<ogra> with v7 tools
<ogra> and a v7 kernel module
<ogra> sounds very risky
<asac> dont see yet why that would cause issues ;)
<asac> but well
<asac> off meeting
<ogra> the action item should be to replace the builder with something where we can have influence on kernel and trootfs
<persia> Right.  Anything else for ARM Image status?
<ogra> no
<persia> OK.
<ogra> well
<asac> so ... do we want the babbage board to be shipped to london in any case?
<ogra> someone should look at libdap
<JamieBennett> thats a davidm decision
<asac> like in case pagatron gets fixed we could use that as a second builder?
<ogra> ++
<ogra> the 3h buildtime are not an issue yet ...
<davidm> lets examine one problem before jumping to to solutions please
<ogra> but they will become a big issue as soon as we get a third subarch
<davidm> We are gravely short hardware at the moment
<ogra> so we'll definately run into a prob then and should be prepared
<asac> ok. lets decide on the board shuffeling by end of tomorrow work day
<ogra> if its forseeable that we dont get a third subarch before A2 i would say we should postpone that discussion
<asac> based on the outcome of debugging etc.
<lool> Another option would be to refactor livecd-rootfs to use qemu-arm; that would allow running the image build on fast x86 hardware; needs to be done carefully
<lool> That works around hardware shortage, and speed issues
<ogra> lool, mono
<lool> (Hey all!)
<asac> hi ;)
<ogra> hi lool :)
<asac> ok. so i think we are done on that arm image status thing ;)
<persia> RIght.
<persia> [TOPIC] Any Other Business
<MootBot> New Topic:  Any Other Business
<ogra> mono isnt installable under any qemu userspace emu
<persia> [TOPIC] Mono on armel
<MootBot> New Topic:  Mono on armel
<ogra> err
<ogra> that was to lool and his last topic :)
<persia> [TOPIC] Any Other Business
<asac> do we have enough information on the problems etc. to do a qualified discussion on mono at this time?
<ogra> i.e. livecd-rootfs would brak there
<MootBot> New Topic:  Any Other Business
<asac> ok
<lool> I'm not too familiar with this bug; I heard about it a while ago from ogra and read a confirmation by someone else, but I don't know how important it is for image building
<ogra> lool, as long as we ship mono apps it blocks 100%
 * persia gets confused, and decides to sort out the topics in the minutes
<ogra> heh
<JamieBennett> ogra: more reason to get rid of tomboy and f-spot
<lool> ogra: I'm saying I know the bug exists, just don't know how hard it is to resolve
<ogra> not sure if we want that
<persia> tomboy has an active competitive upstream, but I'm less sure of f-spot
<ogra> lool, right, me neither ... i just know it gets the emulator to a full stop atm
<ogra> lool, and i doubt we can solve it before thu :)
<lool> No, nor add additional buildds
<ogra> well, replacing the buildd is quick
<ogra> but we need to know if it helps before we even attempt that
<lool> Anyway, was just a random thought on solving the livefs buildd situation; /me returns to fixing hardware &
 * JamieBennett looks at his car and contemplates a trup to London
<JamieBennett> trip
<ogra> i agree that qemu would be a good alternative though
<ogra> if mono wouldnt be the blocker
 * GrueMaster looks at his bed and hopes the meeting will move forward soon.
<asac> yeah. so anything else?
<persia> So, Do we have enough information to have a good discussion about mono now?
<persia> If not, let's move on.
<asac> no
<ogra> no
<asac> at least i dont have any idea ;)
<ogra> move on please
<persia> Right.  Anyone have anything else?
<ian_brasil> we have changed somewhat the Liquid ToDo's after speaking with the community members and Mer guys
<persia> [TOPIC] Liquid update
<MootBot> New Topic:  Liquid update
<persia> ian_brasil: Go
<ian_brasil> the page is here https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileTeam/UbuntuLiquid
<ian_brasil> we will package the plasma mobile shell in summary
<asac> ian_brasil: i heard you move from the hildon stuff to the qt this cycle?
<ogra> on MEr ??
<ian_brasil> yes
<ogra> i thought Mer stays hildon
<asac> liquid reconsidered moving to the new modern stuff afaik
<ian_brasil> Mer stays hildon but they will support QT
<ogra> right
<ogra> like maemo5
<ian_brasil> for this reason it will help them to have plasma support
<ian_brasil> they will use our plasma work
<ogra> and maemo6 moves to be the other way round
<ian_brasil> ogra, right
<ogra> (as i understood at the maemo summit)
<persia> Reading that page, how much hildon stuff would be expected in liquid?  I don't see that much.
<ian_brasil> persia, none
<persia> cool!
<ian_brasil> there was some work done on qmantle
<asac> so we get a bunch of latest maemo goodies, is that about right?
<ian_brasil> asac, yes
<asac> ian_brasil: do you want to track/plan coordinate your work using specs/work items?
<asac> or are you fine to just do it and report here on weekly progress/blockage?
<ian_brasil> asac, yes although i am not sure how that works
<asac> ian_brasil: ok. i can explain that to you after meeting and then you can say if you want that or not etc.
<ian_brasil> asac, thx..we have quite a few coders and designers on board so we might need this
<asac> yeah. lets check what we can do.
<persia> You guys want an action for that?
<asac> [ACTION] asac to discuss work items/burndown/reporting for liquid with ian_brasil
<asac> hmm
<persia> [ACTION] asac to discuss work items/burndown/reporting for liquid with ian_brasil
<MootBot> ACTION received:  asac to discuss work items/burndown/reporting for liquid with ian_brasil
<asac> thx
<persia> only the chair can assign actions :)
<asac> thats Moot ;)
<dyfet> should we have an informational spec to collect mono issues on arm together in one place?
<asac> hehe
<asac> dyfet: i dont think so. bugs should be good
<persia> OK.  ANy other topics for discussion?
<asac> not from me this week ;) (and time is over too)
<asac> ok
<persia> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 08:03.
<asac> thanks persia
<asac> thanks all
<persia> Minutes will be up in 10-12 hours (I'm tired tonight).
<asac> good night!
<ogra> thanks
<liel> Hello
<liel> I'm for Israel. Sould I register in the EMEA Membership board?
<czajkowski> liel: you can if you like, if the time and date suit
<popey> liel: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Membership/RegionalBoards/EMEA/
<popey> you are already on that list liel
<liel> I know
<liel> Thanks!
<popey> keep an eye on the above page for the date/time of the next meeting because it will change
<liel> The new date is perfect for me (Because of Hanukkah) :)
<pitti> o/;
<kees> heya pitti
<cjwatson> hi
<blackxored> hello everybodty
<cjwatson> I'm just writing an agenda wiki page
<blackxored> s/everybodty/everybody
<cjwatson> fed up of not having one for the DMB :)
<kees> cjwatson: I was just going to ask about that.  I couldn't find an agenda anywhere.  :)
<cjwatson> for today's meeting, there are three pressing agenda items
<cjwatson> that I can see, anyway
<cjwatson>  * Alberto Milone -> core-dev
<pitti> dtchen: Applying for core-dev membership reactivation
<pitti> Recommendation for core-dev: Alberto Milone (tseliot)
<pitti> DMB: Next steps
<pitti> oops, sorry for interleaving
<cjwatson>  * Adrian Perez -> azureus, eclipse, swt-gtk
<cjwatson>  * Daniel Chen -> core-dev reactivation
<kees> who is chair? (we should mootbot-start)
<cjwatson> I think you just volunteered
<kees> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 09:03. The chair is kees.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<kees> [topic] Alberto Milone -> core-dev
<MootBot> New Topic:  Alberto Milone -> core-dev
<cjwatson> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DeveloperMembershipBoard/Agenda exists now
<cjwatson> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DeveloperMembershipBoard/Agenda
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DeveloperMembershipBoard/Agenda
<kees> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/AlbertoMilone/CoreDeveloperApplication
<kees> [link] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/AlbertoMilone/CoreDeveloperApplication
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/AlbertoMilone/CoreDeveloperApplication
<pitti> I also sponsor quite a lot of Alberto's uploads, mostly nvidia drivers
<kees> just reading this package list now.
<cjwatson> hmm, tseliot is not here
<pitti> it's a national holiday for him today
<kees> based on sponsored work and personal experience, I would support tseliot being core-dev.  I'd like the opportunity to ask some questions, though.
<cjwatson> I had wanted to ask him about the state of proprietary drivers in general (and what the next steps are for getting rid of them ...), but that's really out of my own curiosity than anything else
<cjwatson> frankly, an endorsement from a core developer saying "I pretty much trust his uploads implicitly" is close to good enough for me :)
<cjwatson> Keybuk: are you here, by the way?
<kees> er, do we have quorum? don't we need 4?
<pitti> mdz can't make it
<pitti> I pinged Keybuk and sabdfl an hour ago, but no response
<cjwatson> I'll phone Scott
<cjwatson> (bear with me, internet connection currently bearing startling similarity to molasses)
<pitti> kees: in the meantime, do you still have questions to dtchen after his mail response?
<pitti> I asked him (action from prev meeting), and he can't be online at this time (work)
 * kees ponders what to do with the mootbot topic
<pitti> Keybuk and I already gave our +1 two weeks ago
<kees> pitti: no, I'm good with dtchen
<kees> so, +1 from me, then.  :)
<cjwatson> +1 from me for dtchen also, Kees already asked the questions I was going to ask
<pitti> (sorry about scrambling topic - just trying to fill in the gap)
<kees> [topic] Daniel Chen: ubuntu-core-dev reactivation
<MootBot> New Topic:  Daniel Chen: ubuntu-core-dev reactivation
<cjwatson> no reply from Scott's phone
<kees> +1's all around, carried.
<pitti> I can do the paperwork
<cjwatson> let's continue with Alberto by mail
<cjwatson> blackxored is Adrian Perez, so we can discuss with him even if we don't have quorum, and finish off by mail
<kees> pitti: what's required for activation, just setting the group membership in LP and announcing to which lists?
<pitti> added him to ~u-core-dev
<pitti> kees: replying to his application, and then mentioning it on the meeting summary to -devel, I think
<cjwatson> ubuntu-devel@ and devel-permissions@, I believe
<pitti> at least that's what I did last time, and nobody complained
<cjwatson> (the latter now exists, hurrah)
<pitti> yay
<pitti> thanks
<kees> devel-permissions@, that's what I was looking for, perfect.
<kees> [topic] Adrian Perez: azureus, eclipse, swt-gtk
<MootBot> New Topic:  Adrian Perez: azureus, eclipse, swt-gtk
<pitti> the first two are universe, and MC already ack'ed them
<pitti> so I already made him uploader for that
<pitti> (based on similar cases last week)
<pitti> swt-gtk is main, though
<blackxored> I see
<pitti> hey blackxored, thanks for joining!
<blackxored> pitti, I was lurking since 10:00 CST :P
<blackxored> no problem
<cjwatson> blackxored: can you tell us a bit about your work on eclipse? what state were things in when you started, what major things still need to be done ...? I know that eclipse is a big deal for a number of users
<blackxored> cjwatson, in fact it is
<kees> ah!  blackxored, I see you're the Debian maintainer of swt-gtk.  that simplies my thought-process.  :)  http://packages.qa.debian.org/s/swt-gtk.html
<blackxored> when i started with eclipse the package was almost clean enough, although they were important changes made by my co-maintainers, such as switching to cdbs
<blackxored> kees, yes I am
<blackxored> also I'm the sole maintainer of azureus, although the maint is set to debian-java since I expected to receive help for azureus bugs since sjackman told me this package generates a lot of them
<blackxored> but I'm glad to say that I solved most quickly, so I just have a wishlist
<blackxored> for it
<blackxored> :P
<cjwatson> what's the Ubuntu Java team like at the moment? last I checked in it was very very very quiet, but that was years ago :)
<blackxored> cjwatson, I have no idea
<cjwatson> and are there any big plans there?
<cjwatson> oh, you're in debian-java but not the Ubuntu Java team?
<blackxored> slytherin and ScottK told me there are no many java-aware devs at motu, so I didn't even asked about ubuntu-java
<blackxored> cjwatson, just debian-java
<blackxored> cjwatson, my ubuntu story is starting here :P
<blackxored> mostly active in the bug tracker and supervising merges
<blackxored> until now
<cjwatson> there was an Ubuntu Java team at one point, but maybe it was so quiet they stopped bothering
<cjwatson> perhaps you could figure out how to revive it? :-)
<blackxored> cjwatson, probably
<blackxored> cjwatson, I once attended a 4 person meeting, not truly encouraging :P
<mdz> pitti, I'm on another call, but can you add an agenda item to try to reschedule this meeting so I can attend?
<pitti> well, a java team of four people would be great
<blackxored> cjwatson, probably, but my goals are to apply for motu for lucid release
<pitti> mdz: will do
<blackxored> pitti, heheheh that was ages ago I think, when I started seeing motu videos :P
<kees> blackxored: who sponsors your Debian uploads?
<blackxored> kees, since now, anyone :P formerly, the team, myon, twener, etc
<blackxored> sjackman when I adopted azureus and the like
 * kees nods
<blackxored> pitti, anyways, I will try to do my best for a ubuntu java team if you like to
<blackxored> :P
<blackxored> I'm dev of ruby, python, and java mostly
<pitti> well, it's not me commandeering you, you should do what you enjoy and you are good at
<pitti> blackxored: I just meant that four people can do a lot
<blackxored> pitti, leaving being modest behind, I've done great java packaging :P
 * blackxored advocates itself :P
<blackxored> pitti, I have several people in mind
<blackxored> slytherin, bdrung, etc
<blackxored> anyone of us could take the beat :P
<blackxored> also there's an increasing initiative to re-sync java packages into debian, I think this will get debian-java somehow more involved with ubuntu as well, so there are good changes this people could join and do the merges and attend the bugs
<pitti> that would certainly be ideal
<pitti> as far as I remember, the main changes that we did were for the default-jdk transition and some FTBFSish fixes
<blackxored> pitti exactly
<blackxored> but now openjdk is the default for most debian archs
<blackxored> that's one of the main topics of the re-sync
<kees> pitti, cjwatson: any other questions?  without quorum, do we move this to email?
<cjwatson> I have no other questions, and am +1 on Adrian's per-package application
<pitti> based on blackxored being the Debian maintainer for swt-gt, and MC approval, I have no further questions (+1 from me for swt-gtk, FWIW)
<kees> +1 from me for swt-gtk as well
<pitti> so, we need to collect one more vote on the ML then
<blackxored> \o/ great
<kees> [action] get remaining DMB votes for blackxored via email
<MootBot> ACTION received:  get remaining DMB votes for blackxored via email
<kees> thanks blackxored!
<kees> [topic] next steps
<MootBot> New Topic:  next steps
<blackxored> no thanks to you
<blackxored> I'll be joining ubuntu-java soon
<pitti> blackxored: thanks for yor great work
 * cjwatson mentally inserts a comma. :)
<blackxored> how to proceed next, and what can I wait, if this isn't offtopic
<blackxored> cjwatson, :P
<kees> cjwatson: heh, did that too
<cjwatson> blackxored: we have the action to finish this up, and will mail you
<blackxored> cjwatson, that's fine
<blackxored> so guys I'll see you soon, thanks again
<pitti> I did some small updates to https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DeveloperMembershipBoard to reflect current reality wrt. delegation (and also added a small meeting section)
<cjwatson> I think I ended up with an action from the last TB meeting to document the current delegations - IIRC
<pitti> devel-permissions@ was set up, and the other two items in the first paragraph is process that we now need to follow
<kees> ah, yeah, that would be handy.
<mdz> pitti: I'm here now, meeting finished early
<kees> mdz: ah! cool.  if you can, we need 1 more vote for "Daniel Chen: ubuntu-core-dev reactivation" and "Adrian Perez: azureus, eclipse, swt-gtk"
<mdz> pitti: I can ack adrianperez-deb for swt-gtk right now
<mdz> and also daniel chen's reactivation
<mdz> +1 on both
<kees> excellent.
<pitti> Archive Upload Rights for adrianperez-deb: source package 'swt-gtk'
<pitti> added
<cjwatson> I'd like for us to take some time to discuss the future roles of the DMB vs. motu-council, if we can
<mdz> ok by me
<kees> sure
<mdz> [topic]?
<kees> [topic] future roles of the DMB vs. motu-council
<MootBot> New Topic:  future roles of the DMB vs. motu-council
<cjwatson> we agreed at UDS that we would be keeping something rather akin to the current MOTU team under that name, but I think general consensus has been to move towards removing duplication in management-type functions
<pitti> wrt the delegations, I think we need to add the per-team application policy to the list of delegations on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DeveloperMembershipBoard; I'm happy to do that
<cjwatson> I see that there are seven motu-council members right now
<dholbach> pitti: and refresh UbuntuDevelopers to that effect :)
<dholbach> pitti: I can help out
<cjwatson> normally I would say that 13 is too big for a committee, but in this case it may well be that that's simply what we need to cover a community the size of Ubuntu with any effectiveness
<geser> cjwatson: two MC members are on a prolonged basis
<dholbach> cjwatson: if we were to "merge" the two, I'd suggest having a new election, soren and geser are going to expire any time soon anyway
<kees> cjwatson: have there been situations where the size has hindered some action/decision?
<mdz> when we established the DMB, we resolved to seed it with the TB members, but that there should be an election once we got on our feet
<mdz> I think it's probably time to revisit that and have an election
<mdz> and nominate MC members who wish to stand
<mdz> thoughts?
<cjwatson> kees: the only real issues as size increases are that it gets harder to get (nearly) everyone together, and meetings tend to drag on
<dholbach> it'd be nice to eliminate the "talk to two different boards if you want to apply" part :)
<kees> that was the plan, so I support that.
<cjwatson> an election does seem to be the best way to move forward
<kees> (plan == election)
<cjwatson> dholbach: yes
<mdz> are there members of motu-council who are not yet core-dev, and if so, does that matter?
<cjwatson> so what kind of numbers do we ideally want? and, should we simply have TB members stand again, rather than being grandfathered in?
<mdz> cjwatson: not sure, and yes
<dholbach> mdz: persia, geser, jpds and nhandler are not, and I wouldn't personally think it matters - they should have applied for core-dev anyway :)
<cjwatson> persia isn't core-dev?!
<dholbach> cjwatson: we could ask everybody if they're willing to stand again
<kees> on the one hand, having someone not in core-dev making decicions about who should be in it seems like a bad idea.  on the other hand, the experience with evaluating work/people as done by the MC is a different skill than packaging.
<dholbach> or make an open call for nominations
 * ScottK would suggest an open call for nominations.
<pitti> my gut feeling is to start from scratch, too
<cjwatson> I would be a little bit uncomfortable with superseding some of motu-council's functions in such a way as to arrange that the current members weren't eligible
<geser> what would be the size of the newly elected DMB?
<cjwatson> [strawman] how about 9?
<cjwatson> or 11? I like odd numbers for voting bodies. :)
<mdz> 9 seems like a lot
<cjwatson> 11 is probably too big
<ScottK> Perhaps more imporant than the number of people is the number that qualify as a quorum for decision making.
<mdz> CC has 8
<dholbach> the MC has 7 right now
<kees> is the intent to merge MC and DMB into a single board named DMB?  does MC do things beyond membership review?
<mdz> I think 7-ish
<ScottK> kees: Yes.
<mdz> kees: yes
<kees> what will happen to the MC duties if it's merged?
<ScottK> kees: From the UDS discussion, i think the intent is to merge the MC membership functions into DMB, but not the MC itself
<kees> non-DMB MC duties, that is.
<dholbach> kees: MC approves motus and ubuntumembers, recommends coredevs and perpackage uploaders and did some conflict resolution
<dholbach> I personally feel that conflict resolution could well be done by whichever area of Ubuntu it concerns
<kees> ok, so just the "recommends coredevs and perpackage uploaders" responsibility would move
<cjwatson> does the MC do organisational kinds of things - "these things urgently need work"?
<dholbach> (like the CC, the TB, the archive admins, the release team or whatever it is about)
<cjwatson> (and if not, should it?)
<cjwatson> conflict resolution often works well close to home
<ScottK> dholbach: I'd say that Universe is an area that needs such a thing.
<kees> +1 for 7, btw.
<ScottK> Sometimes in the past it has been critically important.
<dholbach> ScottK: I don't think so
<ScottK> dholbach: We already had this out at UDS.
<dholbach> it didn't arise very often and the archive team, the release team or sru team are usually good at making decisions
<dholbach> I don't know if it makes sense to have a governance body just for that
<cjwatson> there've been cases in the past of problems that are more like interpersonal resolution
<cjwatson> which IIRC motu-council dealt with pretty well
<ScottK> dholbach: I think that there will be a body that does this function in the community whether you want it or not.
<dholbach> ScottK: hm? I'm not sure I understand
<dholbach> cjwatson: I think there's been two cases the MC was involved with that weren't related to membership
<ScottK> As we discussed at UDS, such bodies need institutional and community legitimacy.
<ScottK> If the institution doesn't care to have such a body, the community probably still will.
<mdz> we're getting a bit off track here
<ScottK> dholbach: You only list extreme cases.
<ScottK> OK.
<mdz> there seems to be a topic here which needs further discussion
<ScottK> We already went through this at UDS.
<mdz> what is its name, and where is the best place to discuss it? (probably not this DMB meeting)
<ScottK> mdz: I think it was discussed and dholbach didn't like the outcome
<dholbach> I can't remember if it was
<mdz> dholbach: are you aware of the outcomes of the discussion at UDS?
<dholbach> ScottK: if you were to list what such a governance body should do, what would be it?
<geser> ScottK: do you expect so many conflicts that a seperate team is needed to handle them?
<mdz> if not, the first thing to do would be to review that document (which has some rationale in it iirc) and give feedback
<ScottK> cjwatson and I have an action to work though the UDS session and make a proposal.
<mdz> maybe dholbach should join you in that effort
<dholbach> http://paste.ubuntu.com/337346/ is the outcomes from the session at UDS
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://paste.ubuntu.com/337346/ is the outcomes from the session at UDS
<mdz> but to come back to the DMB question, we seem to have agreement on a few things
<mdz> [agreed] there should be a DMB election soon
<mdz> [agreed] the permanent size of the DMB should be 7?
<kees> [agreed] there should be a DMB election soon
<MootBot> AGREED received:  there should be a DMB election soon
<mdz> [agreed] members of the MOTU council should be offered nominations for the DMB
<kees> [agreed] the permanent size of the DMB should be 7
<cjwatson> [agreed] members of the TB should be offered nominations for the DMB
<MootBot> AGREED received:  the permanent size of the DMB should be 7
<kees> [agreed] members of the MOTU council should be offered nominations for the DMB
<MootBot> AGREED received:  members of the MOTU council should be offered nominations for the DMB
<mdz> [agreed] the existing DMB members should stand for re-election (assuming they wish to continue to participate in DMB)
<kees> [agreed] members of the TB should be offered nominations for the DMB
<MootBot> AGREED received:  members of the TB should be offered nominations for the DMB
<kees> [agreed] the existing DMB members should stand for re-election (assuming they wish to continue to participate in DMB)
<MootBot> AGREED received:  the existing DMB members should stand for re-election (assuming they wish to continue to participate in DMB)
<cjwatson> (my [agreed] and mdz's last [agreed] are the same)
<kees> the last two seem to be the same, yeah
<mdz> [agreed] kees should give mdz copies of his ssh private keys
<dholbach> haha
<kees> [agreed] mdz will give kees copies of his ssh private keys
<mdz> just checking that you're paying attention
<MootBot> AGREED received:  mdz will give kees copies of his ssh private keys
<pitti> -1 on that one :)
<kees> :)
<mdz> booo
<kees> ok, other items for discussion?
<mdz> how about some actions to make the [agreed] items happen?
<kees> who can drive the election?
<pitti> how would that look like? announce the election, set it up on Launchpad, annouce the results?
<mdz> yes
<cjwatson> did people feel that the tool we used for the TB election went well?
<mdz> get the nominations assembled
<pitti> (no idea how to set up LP, but that can be discussed off-meeting)
<mdz> cjwatson: yes
<cjwatson> we used that in order to get condorcet voting
<mdz> it worked great from my POV
<pitti> seemed to work just fine
<cjwatson> let's go with that, then
<dholbach> I think Mark drove it
<dholbach> and gave it the email addresses of ~ubuntu-dev team
<cjwatson> right
<dholbach> or ~ubuntumembers in case of the CC election
<mdz> kees: I'll do it
<kees> [action] mdz to drive election for DMB, based on existing members of TB and MC
<MootBot> ACTION received:  mdz to drive election for DMB, based on existing members of TB and MC
<kees> ok, anything else?
<kees> alright, thanks everyone!
<kees> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 09:55.
<pitti> kees: two more topics to go..
<kees> agh
<pitti> meeting time and chair
<kees> sorry
<kees> meeting time the same?
<mdz> :-(
<pitti> Wed 1400 UTC would WFM
<pitti> cjwatson +1'ed that, too
<pitti> kees: is that too early for you or would that work?
<kees> if I'm not on the DMB, I'm fine with pre-1500 times.
<mdz> I think he gave +1 on 1400 tue actually
<cjwatson> I actually +1'd Tue 1400
<mdz> but 1400 tue or wed works for me
<cjwatson> but Wed 1400 is fine too
<pitti> sorry, Tue
<cjwatson> is there a west-coast-friendly time we can do?
<mdz> yeah, that's a bit early for kees
<cjwatson> I assume this all goes out the window post-election anyway
<mdz> I will have more west-coast-friendly slots starting in Jan
<kees> it's 6am for US west-coast.
<mdz> yes, perhaps we should defer the decision to after the election
<mdz> if we can keep this slot for the next meeting
<kees> sounds reasonable
<mdz> I'll just take care of the election stuff and miss the next meeting
<kees> ok, chair?
<pitti> we should just have a fixed order..
<mdz> not me obviously :-)
<pitti> I did last time, but I'm fine with driving the next one
<pitti> Dec 22, right?
<cjwatson> I can do it if you like
<kees> it was following TB chair, but that's messed up now since I was on holiday last week
<cjwatson> oh, I think I'll be away
<pitti> let's see if we get applicants
<kees> yeah, Dec 22.  ok, pitti it is.
<pitti> it might just be below quorum, and then get superseded by the election
<kees> ok, for real this time, #endmeeting.  :)
<pitti> kees: you're going to announce the new uploaders in the meeting notes mail?
<pitti> kees: the LP changes are done for Adrian and Daniel
<kees> pitti: yeah, it'll be in the notes.  did you send the devel-permissions@ email already?
<pitti> kees: no, I thought you'd just CC that?
<kees> cc the notes?  seems like it's more useful as individual emails with the person's name in the subjet?
<kees> anyway, I'll take care of it.  :)
<pitti> ah, true that
<pitti> better searchability
<pitti> ok
 * kees nods
 * kees is off to find breakfast
<bjf> Roll Call
 * apw zones in
 * smb moves over
 * apw elbows smb
 * smb nudges back
<bjf> my bad, got the time wrong, sounds like we will start in 10 minutes
 * apw zones out
<bjf> Roll Call
 * smb is still here
 * manjo waves
<amitk> 0/
 * ogasawara_ waves
<bjf> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 12:00. The chair is bjf.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<bjf> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/Meeting
<bjf> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/ReleaseStatus/Lucid
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/Meeting
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/ReleaseStatus/Lucid
 * apw is here
<bjf> NOTE: '..' indicates that you are finished with your input.
<bjf> [TOPIC] Lucid Release Status: Bugs (Release Meeting Bugs / RC Milestoned Bugs / Release Targeted Bugs
<MootBot> New Topic:  Lucid Release Status: Bugs (Release Meeting Bugs / RC Milestoned Bugs / Release Targeted Bugs
<ogasawara_> Release Meeting Bugs (2 bugs) - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/ReleaseStatus/Lucid
<ogasawara_>  * Bug 487097 - Invalid for Karmic/Lucid, remains open for Intrepid
<ogasawara_>  * Bug 355232 - pushed back to Alpha 2
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 487097 in linux "aufs fchown() bug caused by apparmor" [Medium,Invalid] https://launchpad.net/bugs/487097
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 355232 in linux "acpi-cpufreq/powernow-k8 should not be built-in into the kernel image" [Low,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/355232
<ogasawara_> Alpha 1 Milestoned Bugs (9 bugs) - https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/lucid/+bugs?field.milestone%3Alist=21443
<ogasawara_>  * 0 linux kernel bugs - https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/lucid/+source/linux/+bugs?field.milestone%3Alist=21443
<ogasawara_>  * 0 linux-fsl-imx51 bugs - https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/lucid/+source/linux-fsl-imx51/+bugs?field.milestone%3Alist=21443
<ogasawara_>  * 0 linux-ec2 bug - https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/lucid/+source/linux-ec2/+bugs?field.milestone%3Alist=21443
<ogasawara_>  * 0 linux-mvl-dove bugs - https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/lucid/+source/linux-mvl-dove/+bugs?field.milestone%3Alist=21443
<ogasawara_> * Release Targeted Bugs (59 bugs) https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/lucid/+bugs
<ogasawara_>  * 4 linux kernel bugs - https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/lucid/+source/linux
<ogasawara_>  * 3 linux-fsl-imx51 bugs - https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/lucid/+source/linux-fsl-imx51
<ogasawara_>  * 0 linux-ec2 bugs - https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/lucid/+source/linux-ec2
<ogasawara_>  * 1 linux-mvl-dove bugs - https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/lucid/+source/linux-mvl-dove
<ogasawara_> ..
<bjf> [TOPIC] Lucid Release Status: Milestoned Features
<MootBot> New Topic:  Lucid Release Status: Milestoned Features
<ogasawara_> Milestoned Features - https://edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+milestone/ubuntu-10.04
<ogasawara_>  * 1 blueprint relating to the kernel - https://blueprints.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/kernel-lucid-new-kernel-on-lts
<ogasawara_> ..
<bjf> [TOPIC] Blueprints: kernel-lucid-bug-handling (ogasawara)
<bjf> [LINK] https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/kernel-lucid-bug-handling
<MootBot> New Topic:  Blueprints: kernel-lucid-bug-handling (ogasawara)
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/kernel-lucid-bug-handling
<ogasawara_> Spec was Approved.
<ogasawara_> Noted updates on action items since last week:
<ogasawara_> bug days -- look for bugs with interesting features, pictures/videos etc:INPROGRESS
<ogasawara_>  * starting with bugs with patches attached
<ogasawara_> bug days -- look at improving advertising:INPROGRESS
<ogasawara_>  * sent to kernel-team, ubuntu-qa, ubuntu-bugcontrol, ubuntu-bugsquad, and blogged at planet.ubuntu.com
<ogasawara_> ..
<bjf> [TOPIC] Blueprints: kernel-lucid-sru-policy-review (smb, ogasawara)
<bjf> [LINK] https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/kernel-lucid-sru-policy-review
<MootBot> New Topic:  Blueprints: kernel-lucid-sru-policy-review (smb, ogasawara)
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/kernel-lucid-sru-policy-review
<smb> done, can be removed from agenda
<smb> ..
<bjf> [ACTION] remove from agenda
<MootBot> ACTION received:  remove from agenda
<bjf> [TOPIC] Blueprints: kernel-lucid-review-of-ubuntu-delta (apw)
<bjf> [LINK] https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/kernel-lucid-review-of-ubuntu-delta
<MootBot> New Topic:  Blueprints: kernel-lucid-review-of-ubuntu-delta (apw)
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/kernel-lucid-review-of-ubuntu-delta
<apw> work is still ongoing, next batch of updates after the a-1 freeze
<apw> ..
<bjf> [TOPIC] Blueprints: kernel-lucid-kernel-config-review (apw)
<bjf> [LINK] https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/kernel-lucid-kernel-config-review
<MootBot> New Topic:  Blueprints: kernel-lucid-kernel-config-review (apw)
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/kernel-lucid-kernel-config-review
<apw> nothing to report
<apw> ...
<apw> ..
<bjf> [TOPIC] Blueprints: kernel-lucid-kms (sconklin)
<bjf> [LINK] https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/kernel-lucid-kms
<MootBot> New Topic:  Blueprints: kernel-lucid-kms (sconklin)
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/kernel-lucid-kms
<sconklin> Moblin patch Karmic test kernel is now in a PPA:
<sconklin> https://launchpad.net/~sconklin/+archive/lucid-speedtests
<sconklin> An announcement has been sent to ubuntu-x mailing list
<sconklin> Patches can be viewed here:
<sconklin> http://people.canonical.com/~sconklin/mobp/
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://people.canonical.com/~sconklin/mobp/
<sconklin> ...
<apw> sconklin, you must tell the x-announce list name
<apw> as the next kernel will have a change for ati radeon kms
<apw> ..
<sconklin> ok, and technically this is probably part of the boot performance spec, not KMS
<bjf> [TOPIC] Blueprints: kernel-lucid-suspend-resume (manjo)
<bjf> [LINK] https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/kernel-lucid-suspend-resume
<MootBot> New Topic:  Blueprints: kernel-lucid-suspend-resume (manjo)
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/kernel-lucid-suspend-resume
<manjo> nothing major to report there
<manjo> ..
<bjf> [TOPIC] Blueprints: kernel-lucid-apparmor-development (jjohansen)
<bjf> [LINK] https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/kernel-lucid-apparmor-development
<MootBot> New Topic:  Blueprints: kernel-lucid-apparmor-development (jjohansen)
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/kernel-lucid-apparmor-development
<bjf> doesn't seem to be here
<bjf> ..
<bjf> [TOPIC] Blueprints: kernel-lucid-boot-performance (apw, csurbhi)
<bjf> [LINK] https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/kernel-lucid-boot-performance
<MootBot> New Topic:  Blueprints: kernel-lucid-boot-performance (apw, csurbhi)
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/kernel-lucid-boot-performance
 * apw lets csurbhi go first
<csurbhi> sent a patch for async rootfs population on kernel-team@lists.ubuntu.com
<csurbhi> apw, observed  a performance improvement on Dell Mini 10v.
<csurbhi> ..
<bjf> so where are we sitting right now with our boot time?
<apw> i've got some testing writeen up and about to send those out
<amitk> when do we plan to integrate these patches in?
<apw> we're down from about 1.54s to about 0.9s with the stack i have, the populate_roofs is worth about .3s
<amitk> for wider testing?
<apw> i hope to have them in for the first upload post a-1
<apw> ..
<bjf> so we are less than 1 sec? I thought 2s was our boot allowance
<apw> nope the whole boot allowance is 2s
<amitk> we can always add a few udelays
<apw> our kernel init was 2s, and is now down around the 1s mark
<apw> that leaves us 1s to get initramfs done, and executing real innit off root
<apw> our allowance is grub->upstart taking 2s
<apw> ..
<bjf> [TOPIC] Other Release Tasks: Lucid Audio Support (bjf)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Other Release Tasks: Lucid Audio Support (bjf)
<bjf> still working on c-o-d, getting closer
<bjf> ..
<bjf> [TOPIC] Other Release Tasks: Lucid Better Power Mgt (amitk)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Other Release Tasks: Lucid Better Power Mgt (amitk)
<amitk> got powertop-related kernel patches merged into Lucid and just finished creating a new powertop package that needs signing before upload
<amitk> have started looking at Scott's automated boot testing scripts
<amitk> we might be able to leverage that for power measurements
<amitk> ..
<Keybuk> OOI from a power measurement POV, I guess you're thinking of an external box that measures the power they're drawing?
<amitk> Keybuk: thats right
<bjf> skipping jjohanson for now, he's working on getting connected
<amitk> which is why laptops are bad since they have a battery that won't allow us to measure true current drawn
<Keybuk> are there boxes like that you can get the numbers automatically?
<amitk> yes, you can get boxes which have serial/usb outputs that can continuously output the current measurements
<amitk> so it is easy to rig it up to a desktop/server
<amitk> assuming we can get some standards tests defined (e.g. idle after boot)
<amitk> we can then measure what wakes us up, whether our HW is sleeping, etc.
<Keybuk> yeah, sounds quite plausible
<amitk> we can also repeat the same after a resume
<amitk> since some drivers don't go back to sleep after a resume
<Keybuk> though I'd warn you that the Mini 10v, in particular, does not appear to want to wake up on RTC :p
<Keybuk> so you might want to pick a different model
<amitk> I am thinking that for profiling our desktop stack, it might be better to use a desktop machine
<amitk> ..
<bjf> [TOPIC] Status: Lucid (apw)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Status: Lucid (apw)
<apw> Lucid kernel is currently frozen for the Alpha-1 release.  Following the freeze we intend to make a number of changes as requested by other teams.  Of interest we will be re-enabling KMS for ATI radeon to enable userspace fixing.  We will be enabling a number of new options, KSM, DEVTMPFS, and enabling parallel flavour building.  We will also start updating the ubuntu drivers.
<apw> ..
<bjf> [TOPIC] Security & bugfix kernels - Karmic/Jaunty/Intrepid/Hardy/Others (smb)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Security & bugfix kernels - Karmic/Jaunty/Intrepid/Hardy/Others (smb)
<smb> Dapper:   2.6.15-55.81 (security)
<smb> Hardy:    2.6.24-26.64 (security)
<smb> Intrepid: 2.6.27-16.44 (security)
<smb> Jaunty:   2.6.28-17.58 (security)
<smb> Karmic:   2.6.31-16.52 (security)
<smb> Desperately trying to upload the Karmic-proposed kernel update to 2.6.31.6
<smb> as .7 is running towards the door.
<smb> ..
<bjf> [TOPIC] Incoming Bugs: Regressions (ogasawara)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Incoming Bugs: Regressions (ogasawara)
<ogasawara_> Current regression stats (broken down by release):
<ogasawara_> == regression-potential (up 1) ==
<ogasawara_> 10 lucid bugs
<ogasawara_>  * https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux/+bugs?field.tag=regression-potential+lucid&field.tags_combinator=ALL
<ogasawara_> == regression-update (down 3)==
<ogasawara_> 3 karmic bugs
<ogasawara_>  * https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux/+bugs?field.tag=regression-update+karmic&field.tags_combinator=ALL
<ogasawara_> 5 jaunty bugs
<ogasawara_>  * https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux/+bugs?field.tag=regression-update+jaunty&field.tags_combinator=ALL
<ogasawara_> 2 intrepid bugs
<ogasawara_>  * https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux/+bugs?field.tag=regression-update+intrepid&field.tags_combinator=ALL
<ogasawara_> 1 hardy bug
<ogasawara_>  * https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux/+bugs?field.tag=regression-update+hardy&field.tags_combinator=ALL
<ogasawara_> == regression-release (up 10)==
<ogasawara_> 58 karmic bugs
<ogasawara_>  * https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux/+bugs?field.tag=regression-release+karmic&field.tags_combinator=ALL
<ogasawara_> 23 jaunty bugs
<ogasawara_>  * https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux/+bugs?field.tag=regression-release+jaunty&field.tags_combinator=ALL
<ogasawara_> 12 intrepid bugs
<ogasawara_>  * https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux/+bugs?field.tag=regression-release+intrepid&field.tags_combinator=ALL
<ogasawara_> 4 hardy bugs
<ogasawara_>  * https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux/+bugs?field.tag=regression-release+hardy&field.tags_combinator=ALL
<ogasawara_> == regression-proposed (no change)==
<ogasawara_> 1 karmic bug
<ogasawara_>  * https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux/+bugs?field.tag=regression-proposed+karmic&field.tags_combinator=ALL
<ogasawara_> ..
<bjf> [TOPIC] Incoming Bugs: Bug day report (ogasawara)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Incoming Bugs: Bug day report (ogasawara)
<ogasawara_> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/BugDay/20091208#Bugs
<ogasawara_> Current stats at http://qa.ubuntu.com/reports/ogasawara/kernel-bugday/20091208.html
<ogasawara_> Off to a slow start.
<ogasawara_> ..
<bjf> [TOPIC] Blueprints: kernel-lucid-apparmor-development (jjohansen)
<bjf> [LINK] https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/kernel-lucid-apparmor-development
<MootBot> New Topic:  Blueprints: kernel-lucid-apparmor-development (jjohansen)
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/kernel-lucid-apparmor-development
<jjohansen> had a couple kitten killers, that prevented it going into alpha1
<jjohansen> I have a good tree now that I need to send a pull request out on
<jjohansen> ..
<bjf> [TOPIC] Other Release Tasks: EC2 Lucid Kernel Status (jjohansen)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Other Release Tasks: EC2 Lucid Kernel Status (jjohansen)
<jjohansen> apw rebased and I need to test today
<jjohansen> I still need to go through the configs and get them closer to virtual
<jjohansen> ..
<apw> we proabally need to spread the knowledge of how one tests these kerenls
<jjohansen> that would be great
<bjf> [TOPIC] Open Discussion or Questions: Anyone have anything?
<MootBot> New Topic:  Open Discussion or Questions: Anyone have anything?
<apw> just a ...
<manjo> ..
<bjf> i have something as well ...
<apw> gentle reminder to keep you work items up to date, TODO, DONE or INPREFRESS
<apw> ..
<manjo> .. ..
<apw> manjo, do you have something?
<bjf> I'll be on holiday starting next week to the end of the year except for next thuesday
<manjo> no I don't
<amitk> bjf: me too
<apw> tue or thu?
<bjf> i'll run the meeting next week, do we need meetings after next week
<bjf> tuesday
<apw> the next alpha is only a month away, so i guess we need to keep on top
<apw> so if you could remind us next week to select a victim to replace you
<apw> ..
<bjf> ok, we'll deal with it next week
<ogasawara_> many might be away on the 22nd due to the close proximity to xmas
<apw> bah such lazyness will not be tollerated
<bjf> thanks everyone
<bjf> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 12:29.
<ogasawara_> heh
<apw> bjf thanx
<amitk> bye
<manjo> cya
<smb> tabye
#ubuntu-meeting 2009-12-09
<zul> gday
<sommer> yo
<jjohansen> morning
<smoser> \o
<ttx> o/
<jjohansen> here
<ttx> zul, soren: ?
<zul> hello
<ScottK> \o
<ttx> Lots of absence today, let's get started
<zul> must be the snow
<ttx> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 08:02. The chair is ttx.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<ttx> Welcome to the server team meeting !
<ttx> Agenda at: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/Meeting
<ttx> [TOPIC] Scribe assignment
<MootBot> New Topic:  Scribe assignment
<ttx> This is about who should write the meeting minutes.
<ttx> Our new beloved leader wants to:
<ttx> * Share the burden
<ttx> * Shared responsibility
<ttx> * Visibility in the community
<alexm> o/
<ttx> so we'll rotate every week between the server team engineers so that everyone gets a chance
<Daviey> \o
<ttx> alphabetically
<ttx> I'll start this week
<zul> umm...alphabetically by irc nick right?
 * soren is here now
<ttx> zul: yes
<Daviey> "gets a chance" = "gets lumbered"
<zul> ttx: sweet ;)
<ttx> Daviey: right :)
<ttx> So next week is ... zul
<zul> *sigh*
<ttx> For refernce, the process is explained at:
 * smoser plans on playing irc name musical chairs around hist turn
<ttx> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/KnowledgeBase#Team%20policy
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/KnowledgeBase#Team%20policy
<ttx> zul: you'll need to get access to the ubuntuserver blog, mathiaz can help
<zul> k
<ttx> yeepee, let's move on.
<ttx> (note: our beloved leader is not part of the rotation)
<ttx> [TOPIC] Review ACTION points from previous meeting
<MootBot> New Topic:  Review ACTION points from previous meeting
<ttx> Only one action recorded:
<ttx> ACTION:  jos to find out the best time for the meeting
<ttx> jos says: "Server meeting time to stay the same for at least the next month or two"
<zul> yay
<ttx> [TOPIC] Check blueprint status and progress for the week
<MootBot> New Topic:  Check blueprint status and progress for the week
<ttx> If you're not bright green on the specs you're working on, please shout
<ttx> http://piware.de/workitems/server/lucid-alpha2/report.html shows that we are somehow on track
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://piware.de/workitems/server/lucid-alpha2/report.html shows that we are somehow on track
 * Daviey checks specs
<zul> landscape-refresh havent started yet
<ttx> though moving 40 items from server to QA helped, obviously
<ScottK> ttx: My mail integration spec still needs approval
 * ScottK understands the desire for more use cases, but would like to get it marked approved.
<ttx> ScottK: hah. I remember reviewing it, so it must wait on Jos now -- checking
<ScottK> https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/server-lucid-more-mail-integration
<ttx> ok, actioning Jos on this one
<ttx> [ACTION] jos to review/approve https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/server-lucid-more-mail-integration
<MootBot> ACTION received:  jos to review/approve https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/server-lucid-more-mail-integration
<ttx> everything else is non-blocked ?
<ttx> sounds great.
<ttx> [TOPIC] Alpha1 ISO testing
<MootBot> New Topic:  Alpha1 ISO testing
<ttx> Fresh out of the oven, the alpha1 ISOs are waiting for you
<ttx> http://iso.qa.ubuntu.com/qatracker/build/ubuntuserver/all
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://iso.qa.ubuntu.com/qatracker/build/ubuntuserver/all
<ttx> smoser: do we have blessed cloud images as well ?
<smoser> there are lucid builds published
<smoser> i will grab the ids' and get them onto iso tracker
<soren> I'll be working on setting up automated tests of those over the next day or so.
<smoser> http://uec-images.ubuntu.com/lucid/current/
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://uec-images.ubuntu.com/lucid/current/
<soren> "those" == the iso tests
<ttx> [ACTION] smoser to push cloud dailies to ISO tracker asap
<MootBot> ACTION received:  smoser to push cloud dailies to ISO tracker asap
<ttx> I've already given the images a spin, they are reasonably usable
<ttx> any question aboutthe ISo testing process ?
<ttx> ...
<ttx> alright then
<ttx> [TOPIC] Assigned and to-be-assigned bugs
<MootBot> New Topic:  Assigned and to-be-assigned bugs
<ttx> http://qa.ubuntu.com/reports/team-assigned/canonical-server-assigned-bug-tasks.html
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://qa.ubuntu.com/reports/team-assigned/canonical-server-assigned-bug-tasks.html
<ttx> Still a lot of bugs assigned to zul and kirkland, more than you should be actively working on
<zul> ttx: yeah ill have to go through that list
<zul> the ntp one is actually one I opened
<ttx> ok. Nothing assigned to the team that needs assignment.
<ttx> Any flags needing to be raised ?
<ttx> On bug 460085, I'm still waiting for the Eucalyptus team to comment on the rampart memleak proposed patch
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 460085 in eucalyptus "memory leak; rampart_context not freed (memory leaked per connection)" [High,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/460085
<ttx> moving on...
 * ttx feels very lonely :)
<ttx> [TOPIC] Weekly Updates & Questions for the Kernel Team
<MootBot> New Topic:  Weekly Updates & Questions for the Kernel Team
<jjohansen> KSM has been turned on so you should see it in post A1 kernels
<ttx> A new weekly topic, with our kernel team guest star
<soren> jjohansen: Woo!
<soren> jjohansen: Awesome.
<ttx> jjohansen: it needs some userspace support, a little mouse told me
<ttx> jjohansen: as in, new qemu-kvm
<jjohansen> yes,
<ttx> jjohansen: ok. kirkland is waiting for qemu-kvm 0.12 release, which should happen soon[tm]
<jjohansen> user space has to use the madise system call to mark pages for sharing
<soren> There's an RC of qemu-kvm 0.12 out, IIRC.
<jjohansen> I still have to go through and update the EC2 configs to be more like virtual
<jjohansen> any config requests?
<soren> Yes.
<soren> smoser: You wanted to try to avoid having a ramdisk at all, right?
<smoser> yes... well, some people do
<smoser> :)
<jjohansen> yeah we will look at that
<smoser> on e2 we have ramdisk-less images for lucid. they work.
<soren> I've heard requests from other places for a statically compiled compiled (no modules, everything built in).
<jjohansen> we also want to evaluate Hz
<soren> Err... statically compiled kernel, I mean, of course.
<smoser> i think that -virtual kernel should support all/all-reasonable disk drivers for root devices as built in
<jjohansen> right, I think reasonable is the key here
<smoser> i realize that -virutal is only a subset of -server so that might cause some grief.
<soren> virtual is the subset of server that does not deal with specific physical hardware.
<smoser> i suppose opening a bug is the appropriate action.  i'll get one opened today.
<smoser> soren, right, but it is a subset for modules. for the vmlinuz, its the same.
<jjohansen> smoser: when you do subscribe me to it
<soren> right.
<smoser> so asking for additional stuff built in makes it bigger/affects othre things.
<smoser> jjohansen, i'll do one better, and assign it to you :)
<jjohansen> :)
<ttx> Thanks John, and please come back next week for more work^H^H^H^Hfun with us !
<jjohansen> that is the plan
<ttx> anything else for our kernel friends ?
<ttx> ok, let's move to...
<ttx> [TOPIC] Development sponsorship
<MootBot> New Topic:  Development sponsorship
<ttx> So every server engineer with sponsorship capabilities should spend one hour a week sponsoring stuff
<ttx> the easiest way to track that is to do it every week at a fixed time
<ttx> and it's easy to combine it with https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopment/CodeReviews
<ttx> so far, we can see soren and me on that table
 * dholbach hugs all sponsors :)
<ttx> zul, kirkland, mathiaz: you should set an hour when you do code reviews and sponsoring stuff
<ttx> our beloved leader says: "Server engineers to sign up"
<zul> i do sponsorship and uploads for people but I dont have a set time
<ttx> make a daniel happy, sign up :)
<Daviey> Daniel is already too happy.
<dholbach> :-)
<ttx> zul: would it make sense for you to try to set a time ? that way you can do codereviews as well
<dholbach> Daviey: WHAT?
<dholbach> :)
<ttx> Daviey: he can smile even more.
<zul> ttx: sure
<Daviey> \o/
<Daviey> ttx: Is this sponsor + review?
<ttx> Daviey: well, I use the same hour to do both.
<ttx> (though I admittedly overflow)
<ttx> smoser: you're exempted from this one, you need to acquire uploading powers first
<zul> would this apply to only server related packages or anything since the list on dholbach's list is sparse for server related packages
<ttx> zul: no. We should sponsor anything
<zul> ttx: gotcha
<smoser> ttx, yes. i do need to acquire such deity-powers
<Daviey> hmm.. ttx surely you don't need upload powers to review? :)
 * zul suggests smoser should become a motu in his copious spare time
<ttx> Daviey: smoser hates you now
<Daviey> hah
<ttx> next up is...
<ttx> [TOPIC] Developer communication
<MootBot> New Topic:  Developer communication
<smoser> its too bad, cause i actually enjoyed meeting daviey face to face but now i have to hate him :)
<ttx> dholbach (again) updated the communication rules at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DeveloperCommunication
<ttx> Please check them up
<ttx> Communication is something easy to get wrong
<ttx> dholbach: comments ?
<ttx> I didn't see anything controversial in there
<dholbach> ttx: the recent revisions of that page were a result from comments from our team mates
<dholbach> so I tried to clarify what I could
<dholbach> if you have more advice, feel free to add it
<dholbach> that's all :)
<ttx> rock on !
<ttx> [TOPIC] Soren's QA project for Alpha2
<MootBot> New Topic:  Soren's QA project for Alpha2
<soren> Yay.
<ttx> soren is exploring uncharted waters for us
<ttx> could you introduce that ?
<soren> So, until Alpha-2, I'm on the QA team, rather than the server team.
<soren> I'm working on automating a lot of the testing we are (or rather should be) doing for servers.
<ttx> soren: good, you are exampted from the scribe rotation until then.
<soren> Whee!
<soren> So far, I've enabled a few test suites in package builds.
<soren> More of that to come.
<ttx> (if my calculation is exact, you shouldn't miss your turn :)
<soren> Also, I've set up kvm-autotest to do scripted, interactive testing.
<ttx> soren: we still hope to get a server-oriented man in the QA team, he should followup on that work.
<soren> Right now, I have a server install running on one of my servers. It waits for the screen to look a particular way, and then pretends to press keys and such to proceed with the installation.
<soren> Right.
<ScottK> ttx: Back on communication, I've not seen any announcement about the new Canonical server team lead.  Perhaps I missed it.
<soren> I've defined my work so that I'll be setting up the frameworks.
<zul> it was done last week at the meeting
<soren> KVM-autotest, PPA builds of server packages (to check that they keep building and their test suites keep passing), etc., etc.
<ttx> zul: according to the doc he should have done the introduction on MLs
<soren> ...and then the new Server QA person can fill in the blanks (create "step files" for kvm-autotest, etc)
<ttx> ScottK: I pointed that to him already.
<Daviey> Aww, give him a break - he's new :)
<ttx> Shameless plug: http://webapps.ubuntu.com/employment/canonical_USQAE/
<ttx> for anyone interested ion following on soren's steps
<ttx> Any question for soren ?
<ttx> [TOPIC] Weekly SRU review
<MootBot> New Topic:  Weekly SRU review
<ttx> zul: ^
<zul> sue
<zul> http://qa.ubuntu.com/reports/ubuntu-server-team/fixedbugs.ubuntu-server.latest.html
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://qa.ubuntu.com/reports/ubuntu-server-team/fixedbugs.ubuntu-server.latest.html
<zul> anyone nominate an SRU from that list?
<ttx> The eucalyptus things are not SRU-worthy
<ttx> we already went through those
<zul> ok then
<zul> anyone else?
<ttx> bug 461156 is already nominated and i the queue to karmic-proposed
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 461156 in eucalyptus "User data is not parsed correctly by Eucalyptus in some cases" [High,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/461156
<ttx> waiting for SRU team processing
<zul> there is nothing on the list of nominated bugs for hardy, dapper, intrepid,lucid and karmic
<ttx> right.
<zul> so next
<zul> http://qa.ubuntu.com/reports/ubuntu-server-team/acceptedbugs.ubuntu-server.latest.html
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://qa.ubuntu.com/reports/ubuntu-server-team/acceptedbugs.ubuntu-server.latest.html
<zul> the php and krb ones nominated last week i still have to get to
<zul> is anyone else to test the racoon crashes on that list?
<zul> anyone?
<ttx> ...
<zul> ok then moving on
<zul> and there is nothing in the active code reviews either
<ttx> ok, thanks zul
<ttx> [TOPIC] Open Discussion
<MootBot> New Topic:  Open Discussion
<ttx> anyone / anything ?
 * ScottK wonders if the server team will be rewriting all their Python stuff in Perl now?
<ttx> ScottK: heh
<Daviey> Can i remind everyone that submitting some server tips is helpful, rewarding and stops the kittens getting hurt.
<ttx> ScottK: I don't intend to.
<alexm> :D
<zul> we are slowing converting jos to pyhton
<ScottK> Excellent news.
<Daviey> So everyone submit some tips pls :).. There will be metrics and a burn up chart. :)
<Jeeves_> Can I ask some attention for a annoying mysql bug here?
 * erichammond starts his 17th year with Perl soon.
<Daviey> Jeeves_: ask in #ubuntu-server please
<alexm> erichammond: ++
 * ttx started his 16th year with Perl a few weeks ago
<ttx> though I admit having left it out those last years
<Daviey> * https://wiki.ubuntu.com/server-tips *  --- New version should hit lucid this week, so get them in :)
 * alexm will make 10 on march
<highvoltage> wow.
<alexm> highvoltage: 10y with perl, not that i'm 10 :P
 * erichammond can't subtract.  starting 18th year soon.
<ttx> erichammond: substraction is the first skill you lose with age :P
<zul> must be a perl bug
<erichammond> heh.
 * Daviey divides the topic by 0
<ttx> zul: there are no bugs in perl, just features nobody understands
<zul> lol
<ttx> [TOPIC] Agree on next meeting date and time
<MootBot> New Topic:  Agree on next meeting date and time
<ttx> next week, same place, same time
<ttx> ?
<Daviey> sounds good.
<ttx> Alright, thanks everyone
<ttx> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 08:56.
<highvoltage> alexm: yep I grokked :)
<alexm> :)
 * robbiew_ waves
<ev> hiya
 * robbiew forgot to change his nick an hour and a half ago :/
 * robbiew also renames the Meeting wiki page to the RIGHT date :/
<robbiew> geez
<robbiew> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 10:00. The chair is robbiew.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
 * lool o/
<robbiew> [LINK]https://wiki.ubuntu.com/FoundationsTeam/Meetings/2009/1209
<MootBot> LINK received: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/FoundationsTeam/Meetings/2009/1209
<robbiew> hey lool...ev
<tremolux> hiya
<robbiew> slangasek: mvo: james_w Keybuk: cjwatson: around?
 * barry 
 * slangasek waves
<Keybuk> robbiew: no, not here ;)
<robbiew> heh
<cjwatson> hello
<robbiew> [TOPIC] Outstanding actions from last meeting
<MootBot> New Topic:  Outstanding actions from last meeting
<mvo> hey
<robbiew> Colin to see if -Wa,-mimplicit-it=thumb fixes qt4-x11 problems on armel, and if not punt to mobile team / #ubuntu-arm
<ScottK> cjwatson appears to have perhaps actually fixed it.
<ScottK> (action is definitely done)
<robbiew> ;)
<cjwatson> yeah, I got a full build on jocote
<robbiew> thanks ScottK...and hello :)
<ScottK> Hello
<cjwatson> fixed by using the armv6 asm already in the qt4-x11 tree
 * Keybuk resists any comments about -funroll-loops
<james_w> hi
<cjwatson> -Larry -Wall
<robbiew> heh
<cjwatson> (was always my favourite set of compiler options)
<robbiew> [TOPIC] Alpha 1 Features
<MootBot> New Topic:  Alpha 1 Features
<robbiew> only see two
<doko__> hi
<robbiew> boot-experience work
<robbiew> which is plymouth going into the archive
<robbiew> and that's done
<Keybuk> robbiew: that's retroactively changing the definition
<Keybuk> that's cheating ;)
<doko__> cjwatson: the work arounds shouldn't be needed anymore, -mimplicit-it=thumb is now passed by default
<robbiew> it's good to be the king ;)
<Keybuk> let's be honest and say that we got most of the way there, but didn't actually get it on the CD :)
<cjwatson> plymouth's only in universe too ...
<robbiew> true
<cjwatson> doko__: we didn't need implicit-it in the end
<Keybuk> (because Keybuk's eyes exploded last week)
<robbiew> and removes ubuntu-desktop if installed
<cjwatson> doko__: that was a red herring
<Shezif> Is that the meeting about the new alpha?
<doko__> your majesty, may I still call you robbiew ;p
<robbiew> heh
<cjwatson> Shezif: this is the foundations team meeting
<Shezif> cjwatson,  OK thanks
<cjwatson> Shezif: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/FoundationsTeam/Meetings/2009/1209
<robbiew> Keybuk: as I understand it though..it will be pushed post alpha1 freeze...right? ;)
<robbiew> so updates will pull it in
<Keybuk> robbiew: yes
<robbiew> great
 * robbiew nees his story straight, in case certain people ask ;)
<robbiew> cjwatson: ubiquity-auto-upgrade is done....I assume
 * robbiew didn't know about it...or forgot about it
 * Keybuk wonders whether he can legitimately claim to have tested the CD image for automatic partitioning
<ev> lol
<cjwatson> robbiew: yes, if you boot a current desktop install you'll see an "Update this installer" button
<cjwatson> Mark asked for that around the karmic release, so I decided to dust off the work that had already been done :)
<barry> mvo: probably call between mpt, mvo, sinzui at the least.  i'm happy to sit in too
<robbiew> mvo: +1
<robbiew> +100 :)
<mvo> ok, I will arrange something
 * mvo assumes he can use robbiew conf code?
<barry> mvo: thanks
<robbiew> mvo: hmm
<robbiew> depends when the call is ;)
<cjwatson> you can use mine, if robbiew's is busy
<mvo> thanks
<cjwatson> /msg me for the pin
<robbiew> mvo: with my new duties...that's probably better
<robbiew> ;)
<mvo> right
<robbiew> mvo: thanks
<robbiew> ev: what's going on with the spec for foundations-lucid-installer-design-improvements
<robbiew> I see some TODOs..and some notes at the bottom of the spec
<ev> robbiew: I talked to Ivanka and Michael about that this morning.  I need to send Michael an email about creating that mock up.
<robbiew> okay...well she's the approver now
<robbiew> so I'm fine with that :)
<ev> cool
<robbiew> the last one, foundations-lucid-dropping-sun-java6, will be approved today
<robbiew> doko__ has agreed to maintain it in partner :)
<robbiew> [TOPIC] Sponsorship Queue
<MootBot> New Topic:  Sponsorship Queue
 * mvo hides from this item
 * doko__ hides behind mvo
<mvo> lol
 * ev burrows underneath the both of them
<tremolux> haha
 * slangasek flaunts his single sponsored package from last week
 * cjwatson looks at the overview - I think we all have to hide
<robbiew> heh.  dholbach needs everyone to step up here
 * dholbach hugs all sponsors
<cjwatson> I think I need to switch my usual day to something that isn't Tuesday; I run into milestone freezes too often
 * mvo merged some branches but is not sure that counts
<cjwatson> merging contributed branches *ought* to count
<james_w> definitely
<robbiew> for just one hour a week...you too can help a poor, defenseless developer contribute to Ubuntu :**(
<dholbach> yes, that'd be nice - I agree
<robbiew> I really don't think that's much to ask...even for Keybuk (ahem)
<ev> was the issue that slangasek raised about having to sit in a channel ever resolved?
<robbiew> dholbach: ^^
<robbiew> do they actually have to sit in the ubuntu-reviewers channel during that hour also?
<robbiew> as I can see how that would distract from the actual reviewing :/
<dholbach> I like sitting on a channel a lot, because 1) people can learn from your review and you can have discussion
<dholbach> 2) people are going to ask you to review something that was overlooked for a longer while (because everybody picks what they like best)
<dholbach> there's probably more reasons :)
<dholbach> but very often, there's not too much activity
<dholbach> in the channel
<robbiew> and again...it's only 1 hour a week!
<cjwatson> mm, the few times I've been there, it was much less interesting than the #ubuntu-classroom session we did
<dholbach> right :)
<cjwatson> but then again that meant it was very little work
<dholbach> cjwatson: we should announce the channel some more, that'd probably help
<Keybuk> robbiew: it's never only an hour a week
<Keybuk> and I envy a developer who has a free hour every week
<robbiew> I'm saying that's all you are REQUIRED to do
<slangasek> robbiew: but I thought the 1 hour a week was supposed to be spent on sponsorship, which I don't think is the same thing as reviewing changes on the IRC channel...?
<slangasek> "announce the channel some more" - so that'll be even less of the time spent on actual sponsorship
 * cjwatson doesn't really see the essential difference between sponsorship and review
<slangasek> only that the one hour a week we've committed to is split between the two :)
<dholbach> if nobody asks you anything in the channel, you can just review a couple of bugs/patches and you're done
<barry> btw, on launchpad, every developer spends a full day doing nothing but reviews of other people's branches.  it's the only way we'd ever get anything landed.  at first it seemed excessive but it /greatly/ increased overall team velocity (measured by #of branches landed, #of bugs closed per cycle)
<cjwatson> slangasek: to me, sponsorship *is* review (well, coupled with upload, but that's trivial)
<cjwatson> the point of requiring all developers on staff to spend an hour a week on it wasn't just to mechanically reduce the size of the sponsorship queue, it was to make sure everyone did some review work
<dholbach> I'm sure all the new contributors really appreciate your good work on this!
<Keybuk> an hour a week, over a release cycle, basically turns out as a week of that release cycle
<Keybuk> three hours a week on meetings, takes another three weeks of the release cycle away
<slangasek> I guess my fear is that the things people will ask for review of in the channel aren't the same things that have been nominated as ready for sponsorship; review work is important and good, but are we going to put the sponsorship queue in worse shape as a result of this shift in focus
<Keybuk> we lose every fourth week to freezes and CD testing
<Keybuk> it takes me two hours a day (10 hours a week) to go through my bugs folder
<dholbach> Keybuk: I personally think the hour is totally worth it, because it's the only way we get new contributors and new ubuntu developers that can help out themselves
<robbiew> exactly
<Keybuk> (that's another 6-7 weeks of the release cycle)
<dholbach> I really don't understand why it's a topic of discussion. It's important that we get more people on board. :)
<Keybuk> dholbach: in which case, I'd like to point out that I already spend an hour a week on giving people upload access directly <g>
<cjwatson> it's a prisoner's dilemma
<cjwatson> we all collectively benefit from *other people* doing review and helping out new contributors
<dholbach> Keybuk: talk to me about it
<cjwatson> this only works if a good number of people don't defect, though :)
<robbiew> right
<robbiew> and the argument that "I could use that time for better things" doesn't work....I could skip all my 1-to-1 meetings and use it for "better things", but they are important part of being a manager
<cjwatson> personally, I find review easier than doing new feature work, and therefore I use time that I would otherwise be spending being relatively unproductive while my brain gets into gear
<cjwatson> where was that study that said that the average engineer only actually managed a couple of hours of productive work a day?
<cjwatson> I don't think anyone's suggesting taking away from the hyper-productive time in your best hours
<cjwatson> but, I dunno, if you don't have some slack elsewhere then you're a lot more efficient and consistently productive than I am
<robbiew> okay..moving on
<dholbach> thanks robbiew
 * robbiew skips business from activity reports...cause he's only seen 2
<robbiew> ahem
<robbiew> [TOPIC] AOB
<MootBot> New Topic:  AOB
<robbiew> 2010 conference attendance
<robbiew> make sure to get that info back to randa
<robbiew> I'm assuming she will create the standard wiki page listing all the conferences and attendees
<robbiew> then we can add/remove if anything changes along the way
<Keybuk> was there any particular limit on the number of conferences?
<Keybuk> upper or lower?
<lool> One conference per two hours of sponsoring
<ev> lol
<lool> :-P
<robbiew> heh
<ScottK> robbiew: gcc4.4 is now default in Debian Unstable, so you can probably mark that off on the Debian coordination spec.
<robbiew> ScottK: sweet! thanks for the update
<cjwatson> activity *cough*
<ScottK> ?
<robbiew> Keybuk: I don't think there is an upper
<robbiew> I'd say 2 a year should be the lower limit
 * lool notes he will be afk tonight until Friday -- will be helping with booth at ARM Symposium event, need to be in Paris tonight
<robbiew> [TOPIC] Meeting structure changes
<MootBot> New Topic:  Meeting structure changes
<robbiew> with me covering for mdz...I cannot chair anymore
<robbiew> I was wondering if we should share the load on this
<robbiew> similar to other teams
<ev> fine by me
<robbiew> the question is how often should it rotate?
<Keybuk> why not rotate the chair weekly?
<robbiew> that's fine by mee
<robbiew> and me
<cjwatson> makes sense
<robbiew> works for me
 * robbiew will let hughhalf know
<robbiew> the 2nd thing is whether or not we should add a lightning round
<robbiew> where everyone is expected to "talk" for about 3min
<robbiew> on what they are doing and where they need help
<mvo> hm, isn't that covered by activity reports?
<mvo> I mean, when people write them ;)
 * mvo forgot his one this week
<robbiew> exactly
<robbiew> and when the manager pulls them together and sends them out :/
<barry> +1.  it would be interesting an informative, and ime there's very often been someone with a relevant topic i'd never considered.
<cjwatson> I like lightning rounds because they ensure I can't sleep through the meeting. Main problem with activity reports is that, well, I must say I read them with a pretty severe delay when they're in mail. Maybe that's just me
<cjwatson> (and I do get them in my inbox by means of wiki subscription, but it's somehow rather less engaging)
<robbiew> btw, it's assumed that the chair will also send out the team summary ;)
<lool> I like having them in the agenda wiki page, I can glance at them while the meeting is starting
<barry> robbiew: it doesn't even have to be 3 minutes.  a 2 sentence paste can be really useful!
<robbiew> yeah
<robbiew> good point
<ev> for what it's worth, I like the idea
<robbiew> and much faster ;)
<robbiew> ev: it's worth a lot!
<cjwatson> 3 minutes * team is half the meeting, so yes, shorter would be better
<robbiew> <g>
<lool> we can throw everything into the channel in parallel
<cjwatson> we actually used to do this in distro team meetings but then the team got too big and it became really unwieldy
<cjwatson> full circle ...
<robbiew> not sure if I like parallel
<barry> cjwatson: same in launchpad.  we do 15m sub-team standup phone calls now
<barry> (where subteam <= 5 people)
 * robbiew will update the MeetingTemplate to include the 2 sentence paste lighting round
<robbiew> [TOPIC] Good News
<MootBot> New Topic:  Good News
<robbiew> how sad....none to speak of
<robbiew> lol
 * robbiew doesn't have to run this meeting for 6months! whoohoo
<robbiew> :P
<mvo> heh :)
<cjwatson> my first actual proper scheduled spec will be completed right after a1
<ScottK> cjwatson teaching qt4-x11 to build on armv6 is definetly good news.
<cjwatson> (foundations-lucid-uec-installer-enhancement)
<cjwatson> we're slightly ahead of the line on http://piware.de/workitems/foundations/lucid/report.html, let's keep it that way
<cjwatson> oh, speaking of which, if any of the 'nobody' items there interest you, please grab them
<Keybuk> Boot Performance GOOD NEWS
<cjwatson> we'll need to farm them all out eventually
<Keybuk> X hit its budget today
<cjwatson> Keybuk: ooh
<robbiew> python2.6 may actually exist in Debian this month!
 * mvo merged the apt netrc support stuff into the ubuntu branch
<robbiew> lol
<robbiew> Keybuk: \o/
<ScottK> robbiew: On Python we do have the first round of Python Policy patches out for public comment.  No great controversy so far.
<robbiew> yep...saw that
<slangasek> good news: as soon as the SRU is processed/done, server users can rely on loopback being up before hitting rc2
<ev> cody is testing the extended layout branch for the GTK+ guys, so there may be hope of it landing for 2.20 after all
<barry> ScottK: link?
<mvo> ev: ohhh, that is really good news
<ScottK> barry: http://lists.debian.org/debian-python/2009/12/msg00009.html
<barry> ScottK: thanks
<robbiew> first step python2.6 in debian....next step world peace!
 * barry should really get on debian-python
<robbiew> <g>
<robbiew> barry: debian-devel is where all the "fun" is
<robbiew> heh
<slangasek> yes, so subscribe to debian-python instead
<robbiew> lmao
<robbiew> exactly!
<mvo> ev: can you /msg me the relevant branch  please?
<barry> :)
<ev> sure thing
<robbiew> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 10:59.
<robbiew> thanks all!!!
<james_w> thanks
 * marjo waves
<marjo> #startmeeting QA Team
<MootBot> Meeting started at 11:00. The chair is marjo.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<marjo> Agenda
 * mvo waves
<bdmurray> hi
 * fagan waves
<marjo> # Welcome to Soren Hansen
<marjo> # SRU testing -- sbeattie (Steve Beattie)
<marjo> # Bugday highlights -- pedro
<marjo> #
<marjo> Alpha 1 loco-contacts feedback on Testing/LoCos -- Grantbow
<marjo> # Upgrade testing -- fagan
<marjo> # Bleeding edge team -- fagan
<marjo> #
<marjo> Ubuntu QA Website -- schwuk
 * fader_ waves
<marjo> [TOPIC] Welcome to Soren Hansen
<MootBot> New Topic:  Welcome to Soren Hansen
<marjo> folks, please welcome Soren to the QA team!
<sbeattie> soren: welcome!
<pedro_> welcome soren :-)
<fagan> Welcome
<fader_> soren: Howdy!
<davmor2> hello
<marjo> he'll be working with us on automated server testing
<marjo> https://blueprints.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/qa-lucid-automated-server-testing
<marjo> [TOPIC] SRU testing -- sbeattie (Steve Beattie)
<MootBot> New Topic:  SRU testing -- sbeattie (Steve Beattie)
<sbeattie> SRU Activity report for the past week (since 2009-12-02):
<sbeattie> * karmic: 14 new packages in -proposed (apport, compiz, eucalyptus, evolution-indicator, gdm, glib2.0, linux-firmware-nonfree, motion, python2.6, rhythmbox, ruby1.8, trac-git, ubiquity, xfburn) and 5 packages pushed to -updates (devicekit-disks, nautilus, seahorse-plugins, ubiquity, xf86-input-evtouch)
<sbeattie> * jaunty, intrepid, hardy, dapper: no non-security update activity this week
<soren> o/
<sbeattie> Thanks to Philip Guyton, dm, Sam Chau, Jonathan Marsden, totty, Franck Al Yamine Cohendet, Bryan McLellan, Ethan Puzarne, Nico Isenbeck, Haggai Eran, Jan Mynarik, mickel-one, jpuxan, southworth69, defunctzombie, SaÃ¯vann Carignan, Daniel Harvey, Patrick, and Morten Frisch for testing proposed packages this week.
<sbeattie>  
<soren> (sorry about being late, I had a family situation I needed to attend to, but I'm here now)
<sbeattie> We have an upcoming 8.04.4 point release coming up at the end of january, so assistance in clearing out some of the few hardy SRUs would be greatly appreciated.
<pedro_> any update that needs more attention?
<fagan> soren: you only missed your welcome :)
<davmor2> sbeattie: I'll throw a bit of time at it for you
<soren> fagan: Yeah, saw the scrollback :)
<sbeattie> davmor2: awesome, thanks!
<pedro_> m bug 444979 is standing in the queue for a few weeks
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 444979 in fuse "fuse-utils postinst fails if fuse-utils is a new install during a release upgrade" [Medium,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/444979
<sbeattie> yep, be nice toc lear that one out.
<sbeattie> That's all I have on the SRU front.
<marjo> thx sbeattie!
<marjo> [TOPIC] Bugday highlights -- pedro
<MootBot> New Topic:  Bugday highlights -- pedro
<pedro_> Previous week we had a bug day based on Ubuntu Translations as suggested by qense on an email to the BugSquad ml
<pedro_> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuBugDay/20091203
<pedro_> thanks to dpm, micahg, qense, WeatherGod, nperry and to kamusin for organize it
 * fagan volunteered to do the next one
<pedro_> Tomorrow we're running one based on Compiz as requested by the maintainer a few weeks ago
<pedro_> so if you're using compiz head to : https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuBugDay/20091210
<pedro_> the amazing kamusin helped a lot to organize the bug day so big kudos to him
<marjo> thx kamusin!
<pedro_> fagan yeah i know, i'll contact you so we can start working on it :-)
<fagan> pedro_: cool
<pedro_> so any help will be more than welcome
<pedro_> and again if you have *any* ideas of which could be the next target please drop it into the wiki page
<pedro_> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuBugDay/Planning
<fagan> pedro_: Ill add pitivi to the list because it needs some love
<pedro_> fagan, go for it :-)
<pedro_> that's all from here marjo
<marjo> thx pedro_
<pedro_> my pleasure
<marjo> [TOPIC] Alpha 1 loco-contacts feedback on Testing/LoCos -- Grantbow
<MootBot> New Topic:  Alpha 1 loco-contacts feedback on Testing/LoCos -- Grantbow
<Grantbow> Greetings
<Grantbow> How has the response been so far?
<marjo> welcome Grant!
<ara> Grantbow, have you contacted any member from your loco?
<Grantbow> I did forward the email to my loco mail list.
<Grantbow> Several people sounded interested.
<Grantbow> I've fetched the lucid-desktop-i386.iso with zsync ready to participate myself as well.
<Grantbow> I'm hoping folks from the loco-contacts mail list step up and participate as well.
<Grantbow> I had a meeting with Scott Ritchie yesterday talking about wiki page improvements.
<Grantbow> What do you all think of the email and wiki page?
<kamusin> ;)
<fader_> Grantbow: Awesome... getting the word out is a huge help :D
<ara> Grantbow, I think it gets to the point :)
<ara> Grantbow, what did Scott tell you in the meeting?
<fagan> maybe we should announce something on the qa blog?
<Grantbow> ara: he mentioned other types of testing including SRU that we can add as starting points of contributors.
<ara> Grantbow, nice :)
<sbeattie> Grantbow: agreed.
<Grantbow> he also provided me with some group history since he's been active with Testing for awhile now.
<Grantbow> More than I have at least.
<Grantbow> I guess that's all unless there are any further suggestions or questions.
<ara> Thanks Grantbow!
<marjo> Thx Grantbow
<marjo> [TOPIC] Upgrade testing -- fagan
<MootBot> New Topic:  Upgrade testing -- fagan
<fagan> I just wanted to ask a quick question
<fagan> Should we be doing upgrade testing tomorrow
<fagan> Is there any major issues that need to be tested yet?
<fader_> My guess is that it's never too early to start upgrade testing and reporting bugs
<ara> fagan, I think that we can concentrate in getting good coverage on installations. If we have time, upgrade testing is always welcome
<Grantbow> sounds like a good thing to test for an LTS
<fagan> Cool so ill try an upgrade from hardy tomorrow and see if there are any major problems
<marjo> fagan: the answer is yes
<fagan> Cool
<ara> our aim is always obtaining as much coverage as possible in the tracker, and that includes upgrades
<sbeattie> fagan: https://blueprints.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/foundations-lucid-lts-upgrades covers some of the work items mvo will be fixing related to upgrades.
<sbeattie> fagan: the most recent item that I saw marked as done was the 'ensure linux-restricted-modules-common is removed' item
<ara> fagan, if you encounter any issue, mvo is always happy to help
<Grantbow> sbeattie: thanks for the link
<ara> are you, mvo? ;-)
<marjo> mvo: any comments re: upgrade testing for Alpha1?
<ara> [LINK] https://blueprints.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/foundations-lucid-lts-upgrades
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://blueprints.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/foundations-lucid-lts-upgrades
<fader_> I believe mvo is away ATM
<marjo> fader_ ack
<fagan> Well ill give him a ping later and see what his views on it are
<marjo> fagan: anything else on this?
<fagan> nope
<fagan> marjo: go ahead
<marjo> [TOPIC] Bleeding edge team -- fagan
<MootBot> New Topic:  Bleeding edge team -- fagan
<fagan> I found a team on launchpad called the bleeding edge team
<fagan> There isnt too much activity but I think it can be revived
<fagan> Ill fish out a link
<fagan> https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-bleedingedge
<ara> [LINK] https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-bleedingedge
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-bleedingedge
<ara> mmm, sounds good
<fagan> It has a ppa so what I think we can do is maybe get people to add stuff they need testing but shouldnt be put into the archive yet
<ara> fagan, have you talked to the owner of the team?
<ara> fagan, to know the possible reasons for its low success?
<fagan> nope not yet I wanted to see what the rest of you think
<fagan> ara: lack of activity
<ara> fagan, I think the problem is that upstreams willing to do that, already have their own ppa
<fagan> If we get word about I think it could be a useful outlet
<fagan> hmmmm good point
<ara> fagan, it could be better to find out which upstreams have ubuntu ppas and document that in the wiki
<ara> fagan, i.e. mozilla has one for thunderbird & firefox: https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-mozilla-daily/+archive/ppa
<fagan> Yep that sounds good
<Grantbow> ara: +1
<ara> we could document them under wiki.ubuntu.com/Testing/Upstream
<ScottK> That one is run by Ubuntu, not by upstream.
<ara> ScottK, mmm, OK, but that's daily mozilla code, isn't it?
<ara> ScottK, so bugs there, can be useful to upstream
<ScottK> It is, but I don't think upstream has anything to do with it directly.
<ScottK> I read "which upstreams have ..." as meaning upstream developers running a PPA.
<ara> yes, let rephrase that into: "upstream ppa run by upstream or ubuntu maintainers"
<ara> because, in the end, that's what the bleeding edge was about, wasn't it?
<fagan> yep
<moustafa> Question: What about packages that don't have a ppa?  Wouldn't the Bleeding Edge team be a good place to put those?
<fagan> moustafa: you could just make a ppa for the user
<fagan> it would be just as easy
<fagan> moustafa: like this https://launchpad.net/~shanepatrickfagan/+archive/ppa
<marjo> fagan: do we really want to do that?
<marjo> seems to complicate matters, no?
<fagan> hmmm
<fagan> A little it maybe good to have a central location
<moustafa> fagan: I thought that's why the bleeding edge team was being proposed for "reanimation": To have a centralized location for upstream packages
<fagan> Yep
<ara> I think that it is a bit complicated to maintain
<fagan> I agree
<moustafa> ara: wouldn't there be a way to (and I hope this will make sense) redirect certain PPAs to the Bleeding Edge team?
<ara> moustafa, ?
<fagan> so maybe the wiki would be a good idea and let the developers decide where to put the packages
<davmor2> to be honest I think the team dissipated due to the amount of daily-ppas
<moustafa> Basically: Members of the BE team who have their own PPAs could get their packages mirrored by the BE PPA, which would give a centralized location
<moustafa> Or maybe that's something Launchpad can't do
<fagan> moustafa: I dont think launchpad can do that
<moustafa> In which point a wiki would be the easiest answer for now
<ara> moustafa, but, is having a central location a good thing? for me, i.e., having both firefox and thunderbird in the daily mozilla ppa is already too much, as I only want thunderbird. If, by error, I update all my system with that ppa enabled.... I have firefox daily ppa installed, which I don't want
<ara> and that's only two packages
<moustafa> ara: Good point
<fagan> So how about just the wiki them
<fagan> *then
<marjo> fagan: may i suggest you investigate further and come back with a firm proposal to the team next week?
<moustafa> Wiki does sound like the sanest suggestion
<fagan> marjo: Cool
<marjo> based on discussions and ideas presented today?
<fagan> Yep
<marjo> thx for rediscovering that team; looks interesting
<marjo> [TOPIC] Ubuntu QA Website -- schwuk
<MootBot> New Topic:  Ubuntu QA Website -- schwuk
<marjo> http://qa.ubuntu.com/
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://qa.ubuntu.com/
<schwuk> 2 items here
<davmor2> mailing list :)
<schwuk> 1) the QA website has been updated with a link to mailing list as discussed last week
<schwuk> 2) can people check the content/links on the site and ensure they are still relevant/valid
<marjo> davmor2: ?
<soren> I probably have some new stuff for it next week-ish.
<davmor2> marjo: it's added
<marjo> davmor2: ack
<ara> schwuk, can you please change the mago link to point to http://mago.ubuntu.com, please?
<fagan> off topic are we getting rid of http://hwdb.ubuntu.com/ ?
<schwuk> There is a LP project for the site for branches/bugs etc. http://launchpad.net/ubuntu-qa-homepage
<schwuk> ara: will do
<davmor2> schwuk: looks good dude I will track the links
<ara> schwuk, also, Desktop Automation should point also to the mago site
<ara> schwuk, thanks
<fagan> Any more items on the agenda?
<Grantbow> does wiki.ubuntu.com/QATeam link to qa.ubuntu.com?
<fagan> looks like it doesnt
<fagan> nice catch Grantbow
<schwuk> +1
<fagan> So back to my previous question are we killing off hwdb.ubuntu.com because it doesnt contain any useful info?
<cr3> fagan: I've sent a request to the IS team about this, let me pull up their answer
<fagan> cr3: cool
<cr3> fagan: there appears to be 20 new requests still being submitted to that page every day
<marjo> schwuk: thx
<Grantbow> interesting indicator
<cr3> this is strange because the client for this has been deprecated since before hardy
<fagan> but how can you get any info from there?
<fagan> cr3: it kinda looks like spam at least the most recent few
<cr3> fagan: good catch
<cr3> ideally, it would be nice to provide a redirect for that url in case anyone happens to have it bookmarked
<marjo> folks: time check - 4 minutes
<cr3> what would you guys think of redirecting to http://webapps.ubuntu.com/certification?
<fagan> cr3: +1
<fader_> cr3: I like that.  I was going to ask about the client degrading gracefully but if it's been deprecated that long...
<schwuk> ara: those changes you requested are live
<fader_> Maybe a 10s redirect with an 'update your bookmarks' text?
<schwuk> cr3: hwdb != certification
<ara> schwuk, nice :)
<marjo> fagan, cr3: can we continue topic to next meeting?
<marjo> schwuk: +1
<cr3> marjo: sure, not urgent
<ara> schwuk, thanks!
<marjo> folks, before we end, want to share Lucid QA Team chart with you
<marjo> http://piware.de/workitems/qa/lucid/report.html
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://piware.de/workitems/qa/lucid/report.html
<marjo> status is looking good early in the release
<schwuk> It would be better pointed to a wiki page explaining the system tool and how to use it.
<marjo> please update your work items as you finish them so that we get an accurate status on a daily basis
<marjo> ok let's end on time
<fagan> good meeting all
<marjo> thx everyone for another productive and interesting meeting!
<schwuk> Thanks marjo!
<soren> o/
<Grantbow> thank you Marjo
<marjo> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 11:59.
<fader_> Thanks all
<ara> thanks
<czajkowski> schwuk: hey!
<mvo> marjo: no further comments, upgrade testing for alpha1 is good but not super important at this point (sorry for the delay, I was at dinner)
#ubuntu-meeting 2009-12-10
<persia> Is there a Java meeting today?
 * persia hasn't been involved much in the Java team lately, but had news
<ScottK> persia: I think anytime you and blackxored are in the same channel, it's a Java Team meeting.
<persia> I'm not convinced of that.  I haven't done any Java stuff since May.
<persia> slytherin or ttx would likely be as strong candidates.
<ScottK> Perhaps, but you seemed the most interested in a team.
<persia> I just ended up accepting the action of creating the team at UDS Intrepid.
#ubuntu-meeting 2009-12-11
<nixternal> !meeting
<ubottu> Team meetings are held in #ubuntu-meeting - See Â« /msg ubottu logs Â» for transcripts.
<nixternal> !meetings
<nixternal> !time
<ubottu> Information about using and setting your computer's clock on Ubuntu can be found at https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuTime - See https://help.ubuntu.com/9.04/serverguide/C/NTP.html for information on usage of the Network Time Protocol (NTP)
<cyphermox> geser, was the MC meeting cancelled?
<geser> no, but the other MC members are not here yet
<geser> persia, nhandler, nixternal, jpds: here?
<kecsap_> what happens the mc meeting today?
<kecsap_> when will it take place
<kecsap_> ?
<cyphermox> kecsap_, it's as geser said :)
<geser> when we have quorum
<kecsap_> ok
<kecsap_> so waiting....
<kecsap_> thanks
<cyphermox> kecsap_, sorry, i hadn't realized you probably didn't see the messages
<kecsap_> cyphermox, my laptop was frozen and it was needed to restart it. no problem. :)
<geser> dholbach: kecsap_ and cyphermox are waiting for us
<geser> Quintasan|Szel: are you here too?
<cyphermox> geser, dholbach, I'm very sorry but I guess I'll have to reschedule, it's getting really late here and I need to get some sleep... so it's going to be back in January :)
<kecsap_> from my side, I can still wait, no problem for me
<dholbach> cyphermox: I'm sorry - either January or we might manage to have an adhoc meeting
<cyphermox> not a problem
 * dholbach hugs cyphermox
<dholbach> sleep tight :)
 * cyphermox hugs back
<cyphermox> from the Meeting page, "Ad-hoc meeting on 11 December 2009 on 14 UTC", is that valid?
<geser> cyphermox: if 6h of sleep are enough for you :), we are trying to do an adhoc meeting at 14 UTC today
<dholbach> for Quintasan|Szel
<cyphermox> geser, my point exactly :)
<geser> if we reach quorum at that time, yes
<cyphermox> alright, I should be there
<kecsap_> can I still wait or this meeting is obviously lost?
<cyphermox> later!
<dholbach> kecsap_: I just texted two other MC members - it's an obvious problem we have as the MC is literally spread around the globe
<dholbach> (east side of the US, Europe and Japan :))
<dholbach> kecsap_: so if you still have time, don't give up hope yet
<kecsap_> ok, I still have hope. :)
<geser> kecsap_: I see in your application page no testimonials and no sponsored uploads. did you work with the community till now?
<dholbach> kecsap_: you're CsabaKertesz?
<kecsap_> as I mentioned there I did not work on ubuntu distribution, but on upstream projects
<dholbach> kecsap_: it's a bit hard for us to approve MOTU membership for people who we haven't seen getting patches into Ubuntu itself
<kecsap_> that is what I would like to push with my patches now: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/opencv/+bug/311188
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 311188 in opencv "Fails to find ffmpeg headers" [Low,In progress]
<dholbach> kecsap_: usually we use the Sponsorship Process to get patches and packages uploaded to Ubuntu for people who are not part of the team yet
<dholbach> (basically you just subscribe the reviewers team to the bug)
<dholbach> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SponsorshipProcess has more detail about that
<dholbach> having had a few conversations about patches between reviewers and somebody who applies makes it easier for us to approve membership
<dholbach> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/GettingStarted lists all the other good documentation too
<kecsap_> so first I should patch some software in lucid and try the membership after that?
<dholbach> kecsap_: exactly
<dholbach> kecsap_: so the next time we meet we can have a look at what you've done and what others have said about you
<kecsap_> ok and how much bugs should I fix for this? :)
<dholbach> kecsap_: that makes the whole thing more straight-forward than having to make assumptions about what you know and what you don't know :)
<dholbach> kecsap_: what I find very helpful is talking to sponsors and reviewers
<geser> that way you can prove your packaging skills, your knowlegde of the processes and if you can work with others (and others with you)
<kecsap_> ok
<dholbach> kecsap_: they might have had a look at a few of your patches and will be happy to add an endorsement to your wiki page
<dholbach> kecsap_: I really hope you don't see this as a set-back
<dholbach> kecsap_: we're there in #ubuntu-motu all the time to help with anything you might need
<dholbach> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/GettingStarted should give you all the most important info to get started
<kecsap_> let's see. if others will be responsive and helpful then no problem
<dholbach> awesome - the sponsorship process usually works out quite well
<kecsap_> ok, then I will fix some bugs and update my motu membership application.
<dholbach> thanks a lot kecsap_
<dholbach> kecsap_: I really appreciate your understanding
<kecsap_> thanks to you
<dholbach> and as I said: #ubuntu-motu has a lot of future friends :)
<kecsap_> c u on january. :)
<dholbach> kecsap_: I'll comment out your application from the meeting page for now, ok?
<kecsap_> ok
<dholbach> thanks a bunch
<dholbach> and have a great day!
<kecsap_> ok, bye
<Quintasan> dholbach: you're around?
<dholbach> hello quintasan
<persia> Quintasan: Unfortunately, while some of us are around, we're still chasing down the other couple.
<dholbach> cyphermox: ready? :)
<Quintasan> dholbach: hello
<cyphermox> yep
<dholbach> let's kick off the meeting anyway
<Quintasan> persia: okay
<dholbach> if we can't have the full vote, we'll handle the rest via email - I'll try to get people into the meeting as we go :)
<dholbach> persia: want to drive the meeting?
<persia> Sure.
<dholbach> :)
<geser> cyphermox: did you sleep well?
<persia> #startmeeting
<dholbach> super
<MootBot> Meeting started at 08:04. The chair is persia.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<cyphermox> not too bad. A little short ;)
<persia> [TOPIC] Contributing Developer applicatio for Mathieu Trudel
<MootBot> New Topic:  Contributing Developer applicatio for Mathieu Trudel
<persia> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Mtrudel/ContributingDeveloperApplication
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Mtrudel/ContributingDeveloperApplication
<dholbach> (this is the agenda for those who haven't seen it yet: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/Council/Meeting :-))
<persia> dholbach: Thanks :)
<persia> cyphermox: Welcome.  So, what is your motivation for becoming a Contributing Developer?
<persia> (not why do you develop, but why do you apply for this group now?)
<cyphermox> I'm very interested in Ubuntu developer and I think packaging rocks :) My plan is to join the MOTU team, and I see it as another step in becoming more versed into what is going on
<dholbach> cyphermox: who did you mostly work with in the Ubuntu world?
<persia> Well, you're already an Ubuntu Member, so there's no additional rights or permissions that go with being a Contributing Developer.
<cyphermox> dholbach, mostly asac and awe as part of the NetworkManager team, which I am now a part of.
<dholbach> nice
<cyphermox> otherwise, I've done work on some patches here and there on other stuff
<asac> yes.. cyphermox is doing a remarkable job there
<cyphermox> e.g. telepathy-butterfly
<asac> consider a +1 for me on his application!
<cyphermox> I also started this cool little project to test EC2 images, --> lp:checklist ;)
<persia> geser: dholbach: Do either of you have any other questions?
<dholbach> persia: no :)
<dholbach> pretty uncontroversial :)
<geser> just a quick question
<geser> I see that you got one upload sponsored for hardy, then a longer pause and several uploads for karmic. any specific reason for this long pause?
<ScottK> cyphermox: In Kubuntu we often have trouble with NetworkManager and the KDE front end getting out of sync.
<ScottK> Would you be able to help us out with fixing such problems?
<cyphermox> geser, I'd say it's because of my work. kind of busy in some aspects, and following my upload some coworkers convinced me to be more active. jcastro helped out in convincing me too :)
<cyphermox> ScottK, I'd love to. My C skills aren't perfect, but I believe it's good enough to fix some bugs. I'm much better at python though
<geser> so you plan to stay active? sounds good :)
<cyphermox> OTOH, as I don't use KDE all that much (probably because of the very issues you speak of), I haven't had as much exposure to it as I'd like
<cyphermox> geser, indeed
<ScottK> We can fix that ...
<ScottK> asac gave us some big help the last cycle and we'll miss his assistance.
<cyphermox> as I said, work takes a lot of my time -- I'm a sysadmin in a fairly small team to take on *lots* of systems. but I work on Ubuntu whenever I can
<asac> ScottK: good thing is that NM wont be that aggressivley up-to-date in future, so the knetworkmanager upstream delay might already be good enough
<ScottK> asac: Good to know, just looking for resources if it comes up ....
<asac> yep
<JontheEchidna> hopefully they'll support NM 0.8 longer than they did 0.7 ;-) ... but I'm getting off-topic
<asac> kubuntu team should get someone in the netowrk-manager team imo
<asac> so we can train someone etc.
<persia> So, any more queries for cyphermox ?
<dholbach> not from me
<persia> geser: ?
<geser> no question from me too
<dholbach> shall we vote and chase missing votes per mailing list?
<persia> OK.  We're unfortunately still not quorate, but given that granting membership to an Ubuntu Member is a no-op, I'm happy to accept success if three of us vote in favour.  Does that sound reasonable dholbach, geser?
<geser> sure :)
<dholbach> +1 :)
<persia> [VOTE] Accept Mathieu Trudel as a Contributing Developer
<MootBot> Please vote on:  Accept Mathieu Trudel as a Contributing Developer.
<MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
<MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
<geser> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from geser. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
<persia> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from persia. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2
<dholbach> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from dholbach. 3 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 3
<persia> [ENDVOTE]
<MootBot> Final result is 3 for, 0 against. 0 abstained. Total: 3
<persia> cyphermox: Congratulations!  This doesn't get you much, as you're already a member, but welcome to the team!
<JontheEchidna> Congrats. :)
<cyphermox> thanks :)
<Quintasan> Grats :D
<dholbach> cyphermox: rock on! on to motu-ship (or wherever you go next)!
<dholbach> I'm sure you'll do a good job
<persia> OK.  Next up.
<persia> [TOPIC] MOTU application for Michal Zajac
<MootBot> New Topic:  MOTU application for Michal Zajac
<persia> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MichalZajac/MOTUApplication
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MichalZajac/MOTUApplication
<persia> Quintasan: How are you doing today?
<Quintasan> persia: oh, good, excited :)
<persia> Quintasan: I notice that you're really focused in Kubuntu Development.  What prompts you to apply to MOTU rather than as Kubuntu-dev (or is there a parallel application in process?)
 * geser has the same question
<ScottK> persia: There is a lot of KDE stuff in Universe that kubuntu-dev does not give upload rights for.
<persia> ScottK: Is that something that ought be addressed, or just a coincidence?
<Quintasan> persia: well I think upload rights to main are big responsibility and I'd like to spend some more time on learning packaging, also being a dev involves coding somehow and I recently picked c++
<dholbach> how much of https://launchpad.net/~quintasan/+related-software is core Kubuntu?
<ScottK> persia: I think it's an open question.  Quintasan has shown an interest in the 'long tail' of KDE stuff and has many of the attributes that would make him suitable to be a MOTU gardener.
<Quintasan> dholbach: most of the Uploaded packages with exception to dooble and recorditnow
<dholbach> alright
<dholbach> Quintasan: one comment on the application said you might want to consider talking to upstream developer some more. is that on your radar somehow?
<persia> Quintasan: What do you think is the best way to tackle the needs-packaging list?
<Quintasan> dholbach: yup, I have gluon to package and I will contact debian-qt-kde devels to consult the package splitting with them
<dholbach> Quintasan: do you think it's hard to be and stay in touch with upstream kde and upstream debian?
<Quintasan> persia: I would first gather all reports that contain unmaintained and WIP application and check whether it's worth packaging or not
<persia> Quintasan: So begin a process of discrimination to exclude packages that don't appear to add value?
<Quintasan> dholbach: I really think it depends on type a package, if it's a core package then it can be hard sometimes, like 4.4 packaging :)
<Quintasan> persia: something like this, there is no point in including all of available apps out there, is there?
<dholbach> Quintasan: what did you find problematic or "not so easy" there?
<persia> That's the core of the debate :)  The counter argument is that users should never have to go anywhere else for software.
<Quintasan> dholbach: I had few problems with libs and missing files but I sorted them out after few hours.
<dholbach> Quintasan: with upstreams help? :)
<Quintasan> dholbach: not really, though there were few changes in okteta and I needed to consult with upstream what to do with files
<dholbach> alright
<dholbach> Quintasan: how's the polish ubuntu translations scene?
<Quintasan> dholbach: I think quite good. There are many skilled translators and I saw movement on our mailing list
<dholbach> that's great to hear
<persia> Quintasan: I notice a number of build failures from some of your recent uploads (e.g. kdeadmin).  What steps have you taken to address these?
<Quintasan> AFAIK everything with exception to kdegames was built successfully.
 * ScottK notes for the record that he had build failures with the recent KDE 4.4 beta too.  It was a complex transition.
<Riddell> I'd like to reitterate my comments on Quintasan's application, he's learnt well and would be a positive contribution to MOTU and KDE packages in universe if approved
<JontheEchidna> yeah, 4.4 beta was brutal
<Quintasan> I just can nod :)
<persia> I'm sure it was.  I'm more curious about Quintasan's explanation of the process to address the failures than that the source happened to be difficult.
<Quintasan> persia: I can't quite remember having problems with kdeadmin though I might have forgotten to change *.so version, that was the most common source of build failures for me
<Quintasan> let me look in bzr
<JontheEchidna> Quintasan: there was a build-dep on libx11-dev that was forgotten
<JontheEchidna> but I missed that in my sponsoring of your package, so I'm just as much to blame as you
<Riddell> which was actually an issue elsewhere
<JontheEchidna> yeah, that too
<persia> Quintasan: Feel free to pick another example package.  It's that the last several showed up at https://launchpad.net/~quintasan/+related-software rather than kdeadmin specifically
<JontheEchidna> most of those other ones are just ports failures, as far as I can see
<Quintasan> I was about to type this
<JontheEchidna> All ports excpet powerpc I believe are a bit busted at the moment
<Quintasan> persia: AFAIK ports are most problematic
<JontheEchidna> wait, not powerpc
<Quintasan> armel?
<JontheEchidna> sparc
<JontheEchidna> all ports except sparc are busted due to failures at a lower-level than kde
<Quintasan> Not much I can do about this :P
 * persia is done with questions, but generally encourages existing developers to let candidates answer questions, as it becomes hard to judge knowledge of processes and procedures, and technical skills when the answers come from many directions :)
<persia> dholbach: geser: ?
 * dholbach is done too
<geser> no further questions
<JontheEchidna> oh, sorry :P
<persia> Quintasan: Apologies, but apparently we've a couple ill council members today.  We'll start voting, but have to finish via email.
<persia> [VOTE] MOTU Application for Michal Zajac
<MootBot> Please vote on:  MOTU Application for Michal Zajac.
<MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
<MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
<persia> +1 : with this level of support from the rest of the Kubuntu folk, I'm confident any remaining wrinkles will be flattened soon.
<MootBot> +1 received from persia. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
<geser> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from geser. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2
<dholbach> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from dholbach. 3 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 3
<JontheEchidna> Quintasan: good luck with the rest
<Quintasan> JontheEchidna, ScottK, Riddell: thanks for showing up :)
<ScottK> No problem.  Glad to be here.
<Quintasan> dholbach, persia, geser: Thanks guys!
<persia> [ENDVOTE]
<MootBot> Final result is 3 for, 0 against. 0 abstained. Total: 3
<dholbach> Quintasan: keep up the good work!
<persia> Quintasan: With luck you'll get a firm answer in the next few days.
<persia> [TOPIC] Business before MOTU Council
<MootBot> New Topic:  Business before MOTU Council
<Quintasan> I bet I will be checking my mail every few minutes :P
<persia> Nobody put anything on the agenda.  Does anyone have any ad-hoc items?
<dholbach> persia: just who takes care of processing the applications
<persia> I'll do that today, as well as update the headers and the report.
<dholbach> persia: thanks muchly!
 * dholbach has no further business
<persia> OK.  As a reminder, the next meeting has been postponed in favour of being lazy at year-end.
<persia> We'll be reconvening 8th December, at 7:00 UTC.
<geser> December?
<persia> Right!
<dholbach> January :)
 * persia is getting an early start of the being lazy bit :)
<dholbach> hehe
<persia> We'll be reconvening 8th *January*, at 7:00 UTC.
<persia> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 08:49.
<dholbach> thanks a bunch everybody!
<geser> woohoo, that was the last MC meeting for this year :)
<dholbach> geser: you're right :)
<geser> wasn't it even the last MC meeting for this decade?
<Quintasan> :O
<dholbach> that we still have to find out :)
<geser> doesn't 2010 start the new decade?
<cyphermox> geser, it does
<dholbach> oh well, sorry guys :)
<mhall119|work> I thought 2011 started the new decade
<geirha> Doesn't every year start a new decade?
<ScottK> mhall119|work is technically correct since there was no year 0.
<pitti> o/
 * asac waves
<jiboumans> \\o
 * ogra lurks
 * apw zones in
<ttx> o/
 * marjo wave
 * slangasek waves
<slangasek> robbiew, cjwatson, davidm, rickspencer3, Riddell, ScottK, njpatel, jdstrand: ping
<robbiew> o/
<rickspencer3> hi
<njpatel> hey
<jdstrand> o/
<Riddell> afternoon
<slangasek> hi, all
<slangasek> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 10:03. The chair is slangasek.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<ttx> cjwatson is away today, methink
<mdz> \o
<slangasek> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ReleaseTeam/Meeting/2009-12-11
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ReleaseTeam/Meeting/2009-12-11
<slangasek> [TOPIC] Actions from previous meeting
<MootBot> New Topic:  Actions from previous meeting
<slangasek> most of these I know were done
<pitti> ah, I talked to dbarth
<slangasek>   * asac to announce https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ARM/Thumb2 to the broader developer community
<pitti> and also left the questions in the whiteboard
<asac> done (today)
 * pitti checks
<slangasek> ok, great
<pitti> hm, wasn't fixed yet, though
<pitti> slangasek: but the plymouth MIR is filed, anyway
<slangasek> ok
 * ogra is really curious how that will behave on armel
<slangasek> pitti: so I think we can strike that from the list as well
<slangasek> [TOPIC] final spec lists to ubuntu-release@lists.ubuntu.com
<MootBot> New Topic:  final spec lists to ubuntu-release@lists.ubuntu.com
<slangasek> just a brief reminder about this, since I haven't received any new ones since last week - I have foundations and desktop, and that's it
<asac> in what form?
<asac> oh i think i can look at what was send
<asac> nevermind
 * apw missed that action, applogies
<slangasek> you can check the list archive for examples - https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-release/2009-December/
<pitti> slangasek: would you mind if I go first today, since I need to leave in 20 mins? (sorry, big family event)
<slangasek> I'm not too fussy about the form of the mail, I just want to make sure we have something that details, from your own mouths, what your team considers the priorities for this cycle to make sure we're all on the same page
<slangasek> pitti: ok
<slangasek> [TOPIC] Desktop Team
<MootBot> New Topic:  Desktop Team
<slangasek> pitti: let's get right to it, then :)
<pitti> thanks
<pitti> as usual, our report is on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopTeam/ReleaseStatus
<pitti> activity this week: desktop startup speed, landed X.org halsectomy, started power-saving work, landed first wave of new DX indicator work
<pitti> a2 work items: on track
<pitti> RC bug status: pretty calm
<slangasek> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopTeam/ReleaseStatus
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopTeam/ReleaseStatus
<pitti> I expect that the bugs will come once we enable apport again (retracer chroots are now set up, BTW)
<pitti> there are a couple of X crashes which we need more info on, but right now the apport bit of X is disabled (needs porting)
<pitti> but by and large the udevified X caused way less trouble than anticipated
<slangasek> I'll withhold my own judgement on that until my X server stops crashing when I close my lid ;)
<pitti> oh?
<slangasek> bug is filed - just an idle comment, don't worry about it :)
<pitti> wrt desktop-lucid-une: Didier Roche will work on this, but he only starts on January 7th
<pitti> so we'll handle that during his induction sprint in Paris that week
<asac> hmm. on arm i saw some udev complains on console and X didnt start. thought it was something else with our install;... so there were udev related changes to X?
<asac> but lets talk about that after meeting
<pitti> asac: it should start either way; what can happen is that you don't have any input devices
<pitti> asac: bug report with x log and udevadm info --export-db would be appreciated
<pitti> (please subscribe me)
<asac> yeah. i wasnt that far yet ;).
<slangasek> pitti: the release status page misses the bug link for the nv crasher bug; is that on your radar elsewhere?
<pitti> oops, sorry
<slangasek> (494627, fwiw)
<pitti> bug 494627, will add to the page now
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 494627 in xserver-xorg-video-nv "nv driver crashing with segmentation fault in libpthread.so.0" [High,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/494627
<slangasek> pitti: any concerns about other specs targeted for alpha-2?
<pitti> the one that's really big and potentially in jeopardy is social-from-the-start
<pitti> OTOH it's not a dealbreaker if it slips
<pitti> it's just on a2 because it has rather intrusive changes
<slangasek> ok
<pitti> but by and large I think we're on track
<slangasek> great
<slangasek> any questions for desktop from others?
<slangasek> [TOPIC] QA Team
<MootBot> New Topic:  QA Team
<slangasek> pitti: thanks
<slangasek> marjo: hi
<marjo> * Hardware testing
<marjo> Netbook:
<marjo>         passed: 9 (69%) failed: 0 (0%)  untested: 4 (31%)
<marjo> Laptop:
<marjo>         passed: 22 (86%) failed: 2 (7%)  untested: 2 (7%)
<marjo> Server:
<marjo>         passed: 13 (25%) failed: 33 (62%)        untested: 7 (13%)
<marjo> Desktop:
<marjo>         passed: 12 (100%) failed: 0 (0%)  untested: 0 (0%)
<pitti> oops, what happened on server?
<fader_> pitti: bug 494052
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 494052 in linux "bnx2 driver cannot find firmware" [Medium,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/494052
<pitti> ah, so it's like "one major bug which affects many machines"?
<fader_> It's a popular network card and it's not being initialized properly, preventing the install
<slangasek> yep
<fader_> pitti: indeed
<pitti> *phew*
<fader_> Hehe
<slangasek> I've proposed a permanent fix for that class of bug in bug #494774
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 494774 in kernel-wedge "kernel-wedge should autodetect the firmware needed by the modules being added to udebs (modinfo -F firmware)" [Low,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/494774
<marjo> pitti: i know you're already looking for 100%s all around
<marjo> give it some time, we'll get there!
<slangasek> marjo: are the two laptop failures anything that need to be discussed?
<marjo> fader_ promises so
<slangasek> and was 494052 the /only/ bug hampering us on server?
<marjo> http://people.canonical.com/~fader/hw-testing/current.html
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://people.canonical.com/~fader/hw-testing/current.html
<marjo> same bug, 2 failures
<fader_> slangasek: The laptop failures were X starting in low-graphics mode, but it seems to be fixed now
<marjo> is that what you meant?
<fader_> I'll ask moustafa to double-check that in the lab
<slangasek> ok
<fader_> And yes, that is the only distro bug we're currently seeing on servers
<slangasek> not a bad result after all, then :)
<marjo> that's pretty good this early on
<marjo> imho
<fader_> (there were a couple of power issues but those don't seem to be bugs in the distro but environmental/hardware issues)
<marjo> slangasek ready for alpha1 test report?
<slangasek> marjo: do we need to discuss anything on lucid-qa-checkbox-desktop-experience-tests?  it missed the alpha-1 target, but I don't know that it's anything we need to discuss here?
<slangasek> marjo: oh, yes, please go ahead with that first
<marjo> oh, sorry
<marjo> * UbuntuSpec:lucid-qa-checkbox-desktop-experience-tests
<marjo> [cr3] Add DX PPA when testing and reboot if new packages are discovered: INPROGRESS
<marjo> Lucid Alpha 1 Test Report
<marjo> 2009-12-11
<marjo> = Summary =
<marjo> == Test Coverage ==
<marjo> Image Test Coverage = 72%
<marjo> Test Case Coverage = 55%
<marjo> The main reason of the low coverage is that images were not installable
<marjo> until Wednesday morning, leaving only one day for testing the final images.
<marjo> overall, quite good coverage for alpha1
 * ScottK is here now.
 * pitti waves; sorry, have to leave; please direct desktopish questions to rickspencer3
<slangasek> pitti: thanks, have fun
<marjo> === Test Failure Analysis ===
<marjo> 23 Test Failures
<marjo> Failure Rate 23/181 = 12.7%
<mdz> marjo: in light of the reduced coverage, will we continue to test alpha 1 until we get full coverage, or is that not worthwhile at this point?
<marjo> mdz: we could do that, let's see if we can keep the testers going
<marjo> since all is set up now
<slangasek> the untested images consist of DVDs + edubuntu + mythbuntu + ubuntustudio, I believe
<mdz> the DVDs have some testing but not full coverage
<slangasek> I don't think it's worth having people test DVDs that we don't mean to publish; any problems they find are so unlikely to apply to the next milestone
<marjo> slangasek: so, we focus the testing appropriately that way
<slangasek> oh, so they do - those results came in after alpha-1 was published without the DVDs then
<marjo> slangasek: it doesn't hurt to test anyway right?
<slangasek> marjo: as long as you're not burning up your testers' good will :)
<mdz> the DVD tests have found some bugs
<marjo> slangasek: practice makes perfect, but i agree w/ you
<mdz> bug 495194 notably which seems potentially DVD-specific
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 495194 in ubiquity "Lucid DVD installer fails to remove packages" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/495194
<marjo> the more we get testers in the groove now, i think will make things go smoother later
<slangasek> ok
<marjo> == Bugs summary ==
<marjo> === Summary of Unfixed Issues ===
<marjo> 26 bugs unfixed
<marjo> Critical - 3
<marjo> #489791  	 Compilation fails because of changed interface in libpoppler  		Fix Released
<marjo> #491342 	assembly fails to build on armel/lucid												Fix Released
<marjo> #494027 	After upgrade to KDE 4.4 beta in Lucid, no KDE applications will start.	Fix Released
<marjo> High - 5
<marjo> Medium - 2
<marjo> Low - 1
<marjo> Undecided - 15
<marjo> === Summary of Fixed Issues ===
<marjo> 3 bugs fixed
<marjo> High - 1
<marjo> Medium - 1
<marjo> Unknown - 1
<mdz> marjo: the 3 critical bugs under 'unfixed' all say 'fixed released'; what does that mean?
<slangasek> all three of the *un*fixed issues are marked "Fix released"?
<marjo> full report will follow in email
<marjo> that means at the time report was written, they were showing critical and not fixed released yet
<marjo> when i looked this morning, they were "fix released"
<marjo> already
<slangasek> ok
<marjo> timing issue, i think
<marjo> that's all for QA
<slangasek> is anyone triaging the 'undecided' bugs to make sure they get importances and targets set appropriately?
<marjo> yes
<slangasek> ok, thanks
<slangasek> anyone have questions for QA?
<marjo> thx all
<slangasek> [TOPIC] DX Team
<MootBot> New Topic:  DX Team
<slangasek> marjo: thanks
<slangasek> njpatel: hi, are you covering for DX?
<njpatel> slangasek: I can try :)
<slangasek> the one agenda item I had up for DX is dx-lucid-xsplash - does that appear to be on track?
<slangasek> I gather that the next step is one you're waiting for scott on
<njpatel> I'm finding out
<slangasek> do you want us to move along and come back to you?
<Keybuk> waiting for me?
<Keybuk> or another scott?
<slangasek> Keybuk: you
<njpatel> slangasek: dbarth seems to have not made it, so can we come back to dx? I'll try and get some info 'till then
<Keybuk> slangasek: I'm not aware of anyone waiting on me for anything
<slangasek> Keybuk: "get xsplash prototype from scott: TODO"
<Keybuk> slangasek: DX haz it
<slangasek> ah, whiteboard needs updating then :)
<slangasek> njpatel: yep, sounds good
<slangasek> [TOPIC] Mobile Team
<MootBot> New Topic:  Mobile Team
<slangasek> asac, ogra: hello
<asac> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileTeam/ReleaseStatus/Lucid
<slangasek> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileTeam/ReleaseStatus/Lucid
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileTeam/ReleaseStatus/Lucid
<ogra> here
<asac> so we had problems with hardware and image production
<asac> but managed to get a bootable image in the end ;)
<asac> for imx51
<ogra> (we always have probs with HW production :) )
<asac> so not much progress was done on other bugs this week
 * slangasek nods
<ogra> it had installer issues due to a cryptsetup bug which we fixed today
<asac> also our dove port owner is on vacation ... so we need to catch up next week
<asac> yeah. 495161: cryptsetup: initramfs-tools cryproot hook adds >10M to initrd size ... got fixed now
<slangasek> ogra, asac: is the missing /lib/modules/$(uname -r)/kernel/arch/.../crypto directory also a bug, btw?
<ogra> nope
<asac> slangasek: seems its  built-in
<slangasek> ok
<ogra> our encryption device is compiled in on the SoC
<ogra> we need to cross check on dove though
<slangasek> glad that got fixed; too bad it missed alpha-1
<asac> yeah. but there is a workaround you can use to install the image ... so its not that bad ;)
<ogra> yeah
<ogra> well, we have a workaround i'Ãm just trying out
<ogra> but i discovered other odd things, seems compcache doesnt behave niocely on armel atm
<ogra> i'll have ot research that more before filing a bug
<asac> on the blueprint side we are slightly behind, but there are ab unch of low hanging fruits we can go for to get below the trend line for alpha-2
<asac> so i think we are on track there in general
<ogra> (the chart robbiew pointed to didnt look like we're behind)
<slangasek> hum, if you're doing the low-hanging fruit to get below the trend line, doesn't that mean you'll be pressed at the end? :)
<asac> slangasek: no. those were tasks to be done in the beginning anyway. its not picking easy stuff from the end
<slangasek> you guys have several specs marked essential for alpha-2; anything that should be discussd there?
<slangasek> gcc v7+thumb2 is in the archive for a while, I know - are the build failures manageable at this point?
<asac> so far yes. but i expect more to come
<slangasek> alright
<asac> dave martin from arm prepared a list of packages that are potential causing issues. so we will go through that proativeyl now
<asac> (with help of kees)
<slangasek> ok, great
<asac> that list was supposed to be on the thumb2 wiki by now
<asac> will prod him
<asac> the others essential ones look good
<asac> 2d-launcher waits for a code drop
<asac> but once we have that it should go quick
<ogra> uboot just needs code cleanup of the proof of concept and different defaults in the package
<slangasek> who's responsible for that code drop?
<asac> OEM
<ogra> one or two days at most
<slangasek> (should that be a work item on https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/mobile-lucid-une-2d-launcher, assigned to them?)
 * asac  checks
<asac> its in status atm
<slangasek> yes, which means it doesn't get on the reports :)
<slangasek> (AFAIK)
<asac> i will check whats the status
<asac> and add it as work item
<slangasek> thanks
<asac> if there seems to be something not on track
<slangasek> anything else on mobile?  any questions for them?
<asac> not from me
<ScottK> FYI, qt4-x11 is now built on armel
 * ogra noticed that :)
<ogra> ScottK, what about the rest of KDE land ?
<slangasek> ScottK: how did your kubuntu arm build fare?
<ScottK> Currently kde4libs FTBFS due to qreal stuff.
<ogra> slangasek, mostly FTBFS due to qt
<ScottK> Riddell has a test build going in the porter's PPA now.
<ScottK> So we've started work.
<slangasek> the image build, I meant
<slangasek> or did you never get that far?
<ogra> didnt NCommander fix that several times already ?
<ogra> (qreal)
<ScottK> slangasek: We haven't been installable for quite some time
<asac> ScottK: Riddell: remember to file bugs with armel/armv7 tag and ubuntu-armel subscribed
<ogra> yeah
<ScottK> So no Kubuntu builds for armel yet
<ScottK> (ISO builds)
 * slangasek nods
<asac> do we need to make a spec or something we can track for kde-arm?
<ScottK> ogra: NCommander has been a huge help, but we get new qreal stuff every release.  We've talked to upstream and they're trying to train people to avoid it.
<ScottK> asac: No, we'll do it as part of our Kubuntu work.
<asac> ok
<ScottK> ... and scream when we need help.
<ogra> asac, we just need to give them the buildds from time to time :)
<ogra> so the big chunk can be uploaded
<asac> ok. cool. thx ScottK.
<slangasek> anything els?
<slangasek> +e
<ogra> not here
<asac> move on.
<slangasek> [TOPIC] Server Team
<MootBot> New Topic:  Server Team
<ttx> o/
<slangasek> asac, ogra: thanks
<slangasek> ttx: hello
<ttx> Team status updated at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/ReleaseStatus
<ttx> now with graphs !
<slangasek> njpatel: shout when you're ready for me to come back to you, btw
<slangasek> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/ReleaseStatus
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/ReleaseStatus
<ttx> Testing of ISOs early in the week allowed us to spot the most blocking issues for alpha1
<ttx> and fix them before the candidate was baked
<njpatel> slangasek: no new news unfortunately :( It seems like the only change is receiving the prototype from scrott
<njpatel> er, scott
<ttx> all in all alpha1 is pretty good, with Eucalyptus 1.6.1 landed and usable
<ttx> we'll break that next week by going to 1.6.2
<ttx> Progress on  the alpha 2 targeted spec is OK, as the burndown charts nicely show
<ttx> specs*
<ttx> Alpha1 ISO testing uncoeverd a few bugs that we targeted to Lucid
<ttx> the most painful one being bug 494595, because it's difficult to investigate
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 494595 in linux-ec2 "intermittent failed boot for lucid ec2 image" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/494595
<ttx> That's about it from us... questions ?
<slangasek> server-lucid-uec-testing says there should be testing happening at A1, but the test plans aren't written yet - is that in progress somewhere?
<jiboumans> slangasek: the spec IS to create tests
<slangasek> so the work items about testing at a1 should be dropped?
<ttx> jiboumans: right there are some abusive work items in that spec
<mdz> slangasek has a point, there are work items due for A1
<mdz> ttx: abusive?
<ttx> or I'd say "optimistic"
<mdz> I'd say "late"
<mdz> :-)
<jiboumans> ah, i thought he was referring to the wiki section of 'test plan'
<jiboumans> right, late is the right answer in that case. alpha1 was a 'nice to have', alpha2 is the real target
<slangasek> ok
<ttx> well, we applied the test plan as it currently stands -- which is an empty one :)
<jiboumans> (which is why the spec itself is targeted for alpha2)
<jiboumans> practically, mathiaz is on holiday and we lack some of the hardware to do the tests
<mdz> jiboumans: we can use alpha 1 to exercise the test infrastructure when it's ready
<jiboumans> mdz: exactly
<slangasek> when is mathiaz back from holiday?
<ttx> wednesday.
<mdz> though it won't support all of the configurations
<jiboumans> next wednesday, the 16th
<mdz> so we should change "for A1" to "on A1" I suppose
<ttx> mdz: i'm on it.
<slangasek> ok, so we probably won't see much progress on this by next week either... not too many more weeks before alpha-2, and that's a long list of work items - you guys are still comfortable that this is going to make it for alpha-2?
<jiboumans> slangasek: hardware delivery permitting
<slangasek> ok
<slangasek> anything else on server?
<ttx> fixed.
<slangasek> [TOPIC] DX Team
<MootBot> New Topic:  DX Team
<slangasek> ttx, jiboumans: thanks
<slangasek> njpatel: "the only change is receiving the prototype from scott" - so everyone involved knows what needs to happen next?
<slangasek> (i.e., they're aware they're unblocked by Keybuk, even if the whiteboard isn't)
<njpatel> slangasek: yes -- and in case david doesn't know, I've already sent him a mail
<slangasek> ok
<slangasek> does anyone else have other concerns to raise with DX?
<slangasek> njpatel: you get off easy today, then :)
<slangasek> [TOPIC] Kernel Team
<MootBot> New Topic:  Kernel Team
<slangasek> apw: hi
<apw> Overall Kernel Team status is summarised at the URL below, including the items called out in the agenda.  The AppArmor item from last week did not make the Alpha-1 upload due to a last minute kitten killer, but will be in the first upload of Alpha-2.  So far our main alpha-2 deliverables are on track, ubuntu-delta updates are ahead of schedule.
<apw> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/ReleaseStatus/Lucid
<njpatel> slangasek: sweet :)
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/ReleaseStatus/Lucid
<apw> Note of caution regarding the embedded burn down charts, it seems we have lost some 10 items since yesterday, and I have not yet figured out where they have gone.  I believe we would remain below the trend line ... but ...
<apw> Lucid kernel update is ready for upload post Alpha-1, this contains a large number of updates to ubuntu drivers.  Of note we have an updates AppArmor matching that going upstream, also we are enabling KMS for ATI Radeon (x-team is aware).  This also includes the first patches to help with the boot performance goal.
<slangasek> nice
<slangasek> no questions here
<slangasek> anyone else?
<Riddell> I didn't give a Kubuntu update, it would have said we got KDE SC 4.4 beta 1 uploaded
<Riddell> and that beta 2 is due to be tagged sometime next week
<slangasek> Riddell: I meant "anyone else have kernel issues to mention" :)
<Riddell> oh right :)
<slangasek> (but thanks for the report)
<slangasek> [TOPIC] Security Team
<MootBot> New Topic:  Security Team
<slangasek> apw: thanks
<slangasek> jdstrand: hi
<jdstrand> hi
<jdstrand> so, our status page moved to https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/ReleaseStatus/Lucid
<slangasek> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/ReleaseStatus/Lucid
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/ReleaseStatus/Lucid
<jdstrand> there isn't a lot to report (like last week). Due to the nature of the security team's work (ie security updates take precedence over dev work), we aren't committing to alpha-2 stuff
<jdstrand> that said, we are plugging away at our specs as time allows, and are so far on track
<jdstrand> no problems so far
<jdstrand> that's pretty much it for now. any questions for the security team?
<slangasek> not from me
<slangasek> anyone else?
<slangasek> [TOPIC] Foundations Team
<MootBot> New Topic:  Foundations Team
<slangasek> jdstrand: thanks
<slangasek> robbiew: around?
<jdstrand> sure :)
<slangasek> cjwatson: ping?
 * robbiew recalls him needing to run an errand, but I thought he had arranged for backup :/
<ScottK> cjwatson: is on holiday today.
<ScottK> (I think)
<slangasek> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/FoundationsTeam/ReleaseStatus/Lucid
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/FoundationsTeam/ReleaseStatus/Lucid
<robbiew> we're under the line for Alpha2...so things are good ;)
<slangasek> huh, looks like we also lost some work items in the latest report
<robbiew> the alpha 2 chart was broken
<robbiew> cjwatson noticed yesterday and fixed it
<robbiew> well...asked pitti to fix it ;)
<slangasek> and that's why the main chart has fewer work items now? ok
<robbiew> um..yeah
<robbiew> heh
<slangasek> does dbarth know he has a workitem for foundations that blocks an alpha-2 spec?
<robbiew> the xsplash security review one?
<slangasek> I don't think the burndown charts address letting people from other teams /know/ they're assigned to workitems
<slangasek> robbiew: "develop  greeter offering choice between "Try Ubuntu without installing" and "Install Ubuntu""
<robbiew> ah
<robbiew> yes
 * robbiew was cc'd on an email from cjwatson
<robbiew> to dbarth
<slangasek> ok
<robbiew> so he /should/ know
<slangasek> not worrying, then
<robbiew> fwiw, I think the assignee of the blueprint should let others know
<slangasek> agreed
<slangasek> anyone have any questions on foundations?
<robbiew> and just a shout out for plymouth being uploaded and working....at least for me ;)
<slangasek> I need to test that after the meeting :)
<robbiew> in universe...but MIR has been submitted
<ScottK> Python coordination with Debian is progressing, but is taking a lot of effort.
<robbiew> \o/
<ScottK> slangasek: I sent a mail to u-d-a on Boost that needs to be moderated.
<slangasek> (moderated)
<ScottK> Thanks.
<slangasek> anything else on foundations?
<slangasek> [TOPIC] MOTU
<MootBot> New Topic:  MOTU
<ScottK> Nothing to report.
 * ScottK didn't have time to work on the binary removal spec
<slangasek> is there someone else who could help with some of that, while you're busy with python?
<ScottK> Anyone who's got a little time and can do some grep/shell or python work to sort through stuff
 * ScottK can provide advice.
<slangasek> but you don't have a volunteer in mind, ok :)
<james_w> just a note that when the code on piware is updated from the branch and works again things like this should work:
<james_w> http://www.piware.de/workitems/global/lucid/report.html#james-w
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://www.piware.de/workitems/global/lucid/report.html#james-w
<RoAkSoAx> ScottK, i do!
<slangasek> james_w: oh, nice
<james_w> which will take you directly to your list of all workitems across all teams
<ScottK> RoAkSoAx: Excellent.  Let's chat after the meeting.
<RoAkSoAx> ScottK, sure!
<ScottK> Any other questions for MOTU?
<slangasek> [ACTION] ScottK and RoAkSoAx to discuss hand-off of part of the binary removal spec
<MootBot> ACTION received:  ScottK and RoAkSoAx to discuss hand-off of part of the binary removal spec
<slangasek> RoAkSoAx: great, thank you :)
<slangasek> no questions here
<RoAkSoAx> slangasek, no prob :)
<slangasek> anything else before we wrap?
<slangasek> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 11:39.
<slangasek> done.  thanks, folks!
<ScottK> RoAkSoAx: Would you please join #ubuntuwire
<asac> thx
#ubuntu-meeting 2009-12-12
<lielf> Hello
<FFEMTcJ> hello lielf
#ubuntu-meeting 2009-12-13
<stochastic> Hi all, who is here for the Ubuntu Studio developer's meeting?
<dtchen> o/
<stochastic> hi Cory
<ckontros> yo
<stochastic> so the meeting agenda is here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/Meetings/2009Dec13  please review and we'll get started shortly
<stochastic> so far is it just Cory, Daniel, and Me?
<dtchen> looks like it
<stochastic> Okay well I guess we can get going.
 * stochastic is a little disappointed with the turnout, but anyways
<stochastic> Any amendments to the agenda?
<stochastic> I don't have any.
<ckontros> nope
<stochastic> okay, next topic, RT Kernel
<stochastic> I recall a message on the ML about this.  Cory, what's the current state?
<ckontros> stochastic: abogani should have more info but our kernel (-rt) should be almost as, (if not totally) up to date as Ubuntu for Lucid.
<stochastic> ckontros, is that a goal, or something that looks like it's going to happen?
<ckontros> From what Alessio says it's going to happen. Testing will be the key.
<stochastic> Excellent.
<stochastic> Is there anything else to say on the RT Kernel at this point?
 * ckontros thinks for a sec.
<ckontros> Nope
<stochastic> okay, Dual arch Disks
<stochastic> I think we can consider this poll: http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1327714 closed now?
<ckontros> From the poll on the forums, people could take it or leave it.
<ckontros> Yes. I was thinking close it.
<stochastic> I think one of the best suggestions was a doubled sided DVD for commercial purposes (i.e. 32 bit on one side, 64 on the other)
<ckontros> So as there's no big push, I say we drop it.
<ckontros> Yes. While it is more costly, it might be an option.
<stochastic> I think a dual-arch disk has no substantial advantage, but could hinder many users.
<stochastic> I say we drop it.
<stochastic> Anyone else want to chime in?
<stochastic> Okay.
<dtchen> sorry, attempting (poorly) to multitask
<dtchen> I agree that multiarch disks aren't worthwhile
<dtchen> occam's razor and all
<ScottL_> 'ello all
<stochastic> Hi Scott
<dtchen> 'lo
<stochastic> So on we move to Ubuntu Studio Controls
<stochastic> does anyone have a willingness to take this software on?
<ScottL_> rlameiro had been workign with luis I thought
<ScottL_> on US controls that it
<ckontros> As did I.
<ScottL_> s/it/is
<stochastic> Have they actually started working?
<stochastic> neither of them are here right now to talk about it, should we drop the subject from the agenda?
<ScottL_> my understanding is rlamerio was looking at the code and asking about gtk2 vs something else
<stochastic> yes, rlamerio was interested in using wxwidgets
<ScottL_> but nothing concrete had been started as far as I know
 * ckontros looks at LP for a new branch.
<stochastic> okay, well we need to see some changes to that software VERY soon.
<ckontros> https://code.launchpad.net/ubuntustudio-controls
<ckontros> Nothing yet
<stochastic> Let's continue to encourage rlameiro on this, and see how far he gets.
<stochastic> Can we move onto Jack in Main?
<ScottL_> sure
<ckontros> What's the official word on this? dtchen?
<dtchen> I checked with ScottK in #ubuntu-devel about this issue about a half hour ago, and here's the gist:
<dtchen> libffado will be promoted into main automatically once something build-deps on it, which in this case, looks like jack-audio-connection-kit
<dtchen> so -- there are two remaining work items:
<dtchen> 1) drop libfreebob0-dev from j-a-c-k's build-deps
<dtchen> 2) write an MIR for j-a-c-k
<dtchen> (1) is based on feedback from stochastic and TheMuso
<ScottL_> number is almost done but needs a little bit of help from more knowldgable people
<ScottL_> crap  number 2
<ScottL_> sorry for the pun
<dtchen> I'll take the action to help with (2); what're the status and bug report number?
<stochastic> ScottL_, do you have a link to that MIR?
<ScottL_> yes, just a sec
<ScottL_> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MainInclusionReportJACK
<ScottL_> dtchen, I've filled out what I knew at the time and just need some touch ups and blanks filled it
<ScottL_> s/it/in
<stochastic> I was under the impression that the messed up diff.gz file of libffado was also a blocking factor
<stochastic> i.e. many direct source changes in the diff.gz
<ScottL_> what was messed up about it btw?
<stochastic> I was talking with the packagers of libffado in debian, and they're ready to get the diff.gz mess sorted out, but they were just waiting on a new version of ffado to be released
<stochastic> I'll mention that it may take too long, and request that they push a clean version through as soon as possible.
<ckontros> +1
<stochastic> dtchen, as for number 1), should that just get a debdiff attached to the MIR bug report?
<ScottL_> the website doesn't mention when libffado should release the official version 2 but they are on the last beta version
<stochastic> Oh, we also need to drop libcelt from jack's build-deps
<ScottL_> yes, yes
<stochastic> or has that been done?
<ScottL_> maybe luke did it?
<dtchen> no, libcelt-dev and libfreebob0-dev are still present as build-deps
<dtchen> I'll take the action to remove those and upload to lucid
<stochastic> Thanks.
<ScottK> dtchen: I slight correction, it's not quite "promoted into main automatically".  It's "shows up on component mismatches and an archive-admin promotes it."
<ScottK> I/A
<dtchen> ScottK: true enough
<ScottK> Just to be clear for everyone else.
<stochastic> Anything further on the Jack into main front?
 * ScottL_ knows there is a good joke somewhere in the ScottK/ScottL names
<dtchen> the clarification point is whether any additional work needs to be done on the MIR template or bug report for libffado
<ScottL_> yes, some additional work needs to be done on the JACK MIR
<ScottL_> not much, the bulk of the menial stuff is done, just some technical points
<dtchen> ScottL_: right, j-a-c-k is the work item (not libffado -- which is what I was attempting to say (: )
<stochastic> Next agenda topic?
<stochastic> Live video manipulation in Lucid
<stochastic> currently we ship with no live video manipulation tools and there are a number in the repos for us
 * stochastic was hoping Luis would be here to talk on this
<ckontros> Does luisbg think Freemix is ready?
<ckontros> He seems to be missing. :(
<ckontros> Lets move on and settle this on the ML
<stochastic> I notice the last commit to freemix's trunk on launchpad was in April
<stochastic> okay
<stochastic> Next item: Communication with the Testing team
<ckontros> Can we have a link the LP page for this team?
<ScottL_> https://launchpad.net/~ubuntustudio-testers
<stochastic> the Ubuntu Studio Dev team is a member, but it's not signed up to the mailing list
<ckontros> https://lists.launchpad.net/ubuntustudio-testers
<stochastic> We've had a number of people sign up, some sounded like they were very keen on testing, but the conversation on the mailing list just hasn't begun in any substantial form.
<ckontros> Yes. Mostly looks to be bug-mail.
<ckontros> stochastic: You'll need to keep/start the momentum there.
<stochastic> Should I unsubscribe the team from the bug mail to encourage more conversation?
<ckontros> Well, that's up to you and the team there. It's its own little community. :)
<ckontros> Post the question. Along with others.
<stochastic> ScottL_, can you chime in on the conversation every now and then on that list?
<ScottL_> certainly stochastic
<stochastic> In general, we as developers need to communicate what changes we're making in Lucid so that the testers know where to look for bugs.
<ckontros> That really comes down to developing a proper testing procedure.
<ckontros> (besides simple installer testing)
<stochastic> yes, well that's something the team (testers) needs to sort out very soon
<ScottL_> stochastic, I can make a quick write up about some proposed test cases (more than simple installer) and send it to the list
<stochastic> ScottL_ excellent
<ScottL_> right
<stochastic> Anything else on the testing team?
<stochastic> okay, let's move on to: Training an Art manager for Luicd+N
<ckontros> This has got little to no response. I sent out 'bout 6 emails.
<stochastic> eek, thats no good.
<ckontros> 2 responded but haven't replied to my further replies.
<ckontros> Yeah. I'll push more on the art list this week.
<ScottL_> if ckontros will definitively not be available for art in the future and we got six responses we might truly consider new art overy LTS
<stochastic> in general, how are the art plans coming for Lucid, is the wallpaper contest getting any submissions?
<ScottL_> s/overy/every
<ckontros> In the meantime, I'm tinkering with some ideas here and dashua might be able to do a gtk theme for us.
<ckontros> stochastic: None. I'll push again this week.
 * stochastic has been meaning to blog about it
<ckontros> I hope to have something for Alpha3.
 * stochastic ponders what his submission might be...
<ckontros> Plymouth should now be in the repos and Ill be testing that out this week.
<ckontros> Moving on?
<stochastic> okay.
<stochastic> Cinepaint repackaging and adding to the video meta.
<ckontros> Last I knew ScottL was tinkering with this.
<ScottL_> i've been looking to Cinepaint and manage to build it in my ppa (i think)
<ScottL_> but it really could use Oyranos and Elektra also, which are not in the repos
<stochastic> ScottL_, what is your PPA'a link?
<ckontros> ScottL_: What do Oyranos and Elektra do?
<ScottL_> http://www.oyranos.org/#about     and http://sourceforge.net/projects/elektra/
<ScottL_> oyranos is a color management system (CMS - confusing, innit) and elektra is some sort of system registry
<ckontros> Ahh... Well, you wanna try to get them done also?
<ScottL_> sorry, apparently i didn't get cinepaint into my ppa, but i believe i did get it to build locally using pbuilder
<ScottL_> ckontros, not really at this point since I'm working on some of the lv2 stuff right now
<ScottL_> but i'll keep it on my short list
<ckontros> ScottL_: Ok. Then Cinepaint alone?
<ScottL_> aya, I can get cinepaint alone for Luicd
<ScottL_> s/aya/aye
<ckontros> Ok. Lets shot for that ASAP. Maye you'll get to the others.;)
<ScottL_> stochastic, i've been working directly with nedko directly for zynjacku and the others
<stochastic> okay, I think the team would welcome that into the video meta
<stochastic> ScottL_, good, good.
<stochastic> Should we revisit Live video manipulation in Lucid (and possibly Ubuntu Studio Controls) now that luisbg is here?
<ckontros> Si
<luisbg_> stochastic, Live video manipulation?
<luisbg_> can you do that in Ubuntu now?
<stochastic> luisbg_, there are a number of VJ tools in the repos
<ckontros> abogani: After the current topic, can you chime in on -rt situation?
<stochastic> luisbg_, what's the state of freemix?
<luisbg_> stochastic, freej and freemix, right?
<stochastic> luisbg_, and lives
<luisbg_> freemix is stable, I want to add a lot more features but there are people around the globe using it
<luisbg_> and it doesnt crash
<luisbg_> I obviously use freemix
<ckontros> But not on Solaris. :P
<luisbg_> freej is obsolete feature-wise and I never liked the workflow of lives
<luisbg_> ckontros, you speak too soon
<ckontros> ;)
<luisbg_> I have done gigs with freemix in Opensolaris
<luisbg_> it depends on gstreamer and gtk, so it can be ported to all Posix variants
<ckontros> luisbg_: SO you wanna add it to the video meta?
<stochastic> I was thinking we should add one VJ tool to the metas
<luisbg_> ckontros, It would be nice, but I'm not a objective jury of that :P
<stochastic> I didn't like the idea of adding LiVES as we already have two video editors
<ckontros> stochastic: Didnt you have user requests for this?
<ckontros> VJ app?
<stochastic> ckontros, there were a couple hints on the forums a while back, nothing recent
<stochastic> but in general, I think we need to encourage more of a graphics and video user base
<ckontros> Ok. Vote on Freemix in the video meta? +1 here.
<stochastic> +1 here.
<luisbg_> +1 :P
<ScottL_> lives is the only video editor that is JACK aware, no?
<luisbg_> hopefully I will have time to add a killer feature soon
<luisbg_> I have it all planned, just need to have time to code
<stochastic> ScottL_, well once Jack is in Main, they'll all be jack aware ;P
<ckontros> Blender might be. :)
<ScottL_> luisbg_, speaking of coding, are you working with rlamerio on Studio Controls?
<luisbg_> I'm not being a skeptic but...
<luisbg_> why would you need Jack for a video editor?
<stochastic> firewire soundcards
<luisbg_> ScottL_, we had a chat but havent laid down plans yet
<stochastic> luisbg_, well we really do need to see improvements in Controls this cycle.  I'm open to helping, but my plate is rather full.
<luisbg_> stochastic, sure
<luisbg_> we can have a few chats to do planning
<luisbg_> and then finding time/people to do the code will be easier
<stochastic> luisbg_, sounds good.
<ScottL_> stochastic, you getting the minutes for this meeting?
<stochastic> well that wraps up the agenda
<stochastic> ScottL_, okay.
<luisbg_> stochastic, I will grab you in the channel in the next few days
<luisbg_> and have planning chat
<stochastic> luisbg_, excellent.
<ckontros> bye guys.
<ScottL_> oi, what about getting access to the ubuntustudio.org site?
<abogani> About RT: I'm working to update current rt kernel in Karmic. After that I propose to upload 2.6.31-rt into Lucid (that is the same in Karmic). Seems that it works pretty well (not many bugs) perhaps the only interesting bug is with VirtualBox. By the way, Anyone can sponsor me to obtain per-packages upload rights? Luke is very awesome person but he is the only can upload updates for rt kernel (I don't like only-one-man-approach). This is t
<abogani> he reason why since Intrepid RT sucks.
<luisbg_> ScottL_, :( sorry about that, remind me tomorrow when Cory is around so we can get access from the Canonical folks
<luisbg_> abogani, I think Luke is also the man that can get you to get those rights
<luisbg_> or how to do so
<stochastic> abogani, so does that mean that we'll be shipping a kernel in Lucid that doesn't match mainstream's kernel version?
<abogani> stochastic: Yes,
<dtchen> abogani: I'm also core (again), so let me know how I can assist.
<abogani> no way to have 2.6.32 rt kernel enough stable for an LTS release.
<abogani> dtchen: Ohhh thanks! :-)
<stochastic> is that going to break many things like alsa?
<abogani> I don't think.
<abogani> Obviously we suffer of "On generic my sound card works and not on -rt" a lot.
<abogani> s/suffer/will suffer
<stochastic> okay, well if there's no way to get 2.6.32 rt stablized in time, then I guess this is the lesser of two evils
<ScottK> abogani: Might it not be better to release with something perhaps less stable and plan on post-release updates than put an entirely different kernel version in the archive for 5 years?
<ScottK> stochastic: I don't necessarily agree.
<ScottK> We're investing time and effort in this cycle to reduce the number of unsupportable packages in the archive and a unique kernel variant is not good from that perspective.
<ScottK> Also, as I understand it, several distros are settlingin 2.6.32 for a longer support period, and a 2.6.31 RT kernel would miss out on that.
<stochastic> abogani, what exactly is the state of the 2.6.32 rt patches?
<abogani> ScottK: MRG will ship 2.6.31.
<ScottK> abogani: What is MRG?
<ScottK> Debian will also be on 2.6.32.
<abogani> stochastic: Don't exist at all. As like Intrepid (2.6.27) and Jaunty( 2.6.28) rt kernels for these versione never see the light.
<ScottL_> MRG = red hat?
 * stochastic needs to be on his way
<abogani> ScottL_: Exactly.
<stochastic> ScottL_, can you take care of the minutes, now that the meeting is continuing?
<ScottL_> stochastic, certainly
<ScottL_> stochastic, just realize that I missed the beginning though
<stochastic> ScottL_, okay, I'll fix that later
<ScottL_> stochastic, okay
<abogani> Unfortunately I can't do the port for 2.6.23 as I already done for intrepid and Jaunty.
<abogani> /23/32
<ScottL_> well, i'm guessing that is it for the Ubuntu Studio developers meeting unless someone else has anything to add?
<ScottK> I think someone should talk to the release team about this plan to ship a different kernel.
<ScottL_> ScottK, I will talk to stochastic , luisbg_ or ckontros to make sure the release team knows about it
<luisbg_> ScottL_, :)
<dtchen> err, eww, 31?
<ScottK> ScottL_: I think it's more than informing the release team.  I think it needs some discussion and agreement.
<dtchen> if it comes to that, I would recommend that we don't ship an rt at all.
<dtchen> we can always stuff the kernel in a PPA
<dtchen> but seriously, multiple source bases for linux is going to be a serious pain point
<ScottL_> ScottK, certainly.
<dtchen> and 31 works fine in lucid right now; there aren't any major udev skews [yet, fingers crossed]
<ScottL_> okay, more discussion to follow later on the -rt kernel, anything else for Studio?
<ScottL_> right.  then it appears the Ubuntu Studio meeting is completed
<abogani> Ok. Good night to all!
#ubuntu-meeting 2010-12-13
<mdeslaur> kees, sbeattie, jjohansen, jdstrand: ready?
 * jjohansen \o
<jdstrand> yep
 * sbeattie waves
<kees> \o
<mdeslaur> yay!
<mdeslaur> ok, I'll go first I guess
<mdeslaur> this week I'm on triage, and then will write a test script for fuse
<mdeslaur> that's it
<mdeslaur> jdstrand: you're up
<jdstrand> I am currently and will continue to work on testing the apparmor SRU in lucid-proposed
<jdstrand> I hoped to get to it last week, but it got backburnered, in part due to the exim4 update that went out on friday
<jdstrand> (which kees, mdeslaur and I all worked on)
<jdstrand> there is another chromium-browser update that is imminent that I will need to shuffle into -security and test
<jdstrand> I am on community this week
<jdstrand> and I hope to get back to looking at dbus/ipc/apparmor after a several week hiatus
<jdstrand> (due to holidays and non-dev security work)
<jdstrand> that's it from me
<jdstrand> sbeattie: you're up
<sbeattie> I released an openssl update and tested/pushed out the clamav update that hallyn prepared.
<sbeattie> I'm currently working on a testscript for openssh, as I have an update for it to publish sitting in the security-proposed ppa
<sbeattie> I haven't made much progress on testing the apparmor sru, but I'm planning on getting to it this week.
<sbeattie> I may pick up another update.
<sbeattie> I think that's it for me, kees?
<kees> I'm doing auditing this week; there's a lot of internal stuff to do.
<kees> just sent an embargoed issue to vsec care of emgent
<kees> I've got some MIR audits to do too
<kees> and I need to upload the latest apparmor to natty
<kees> jjohansen: is that stable again, ready for a push?
<jjohansen> kees: not yet
<jjohansen> I need to push out a couple of patches for sbeattie to review
 * kees will wait again :)
<jjohansen> I am working on that right now
<jjohansen> and we should have some patches out today
<kees> sweet
<jjohansen> its all just minor cleanup work
<jjohansen> atm
<kees> okay, that's it from me.
<kees> anyone have anything else?
<jjohansen> well just the usual spiel of working on AA a bit, and being mostly distracted by other duties
<jjohansen> oh and I am taking thursday and friday off :)
<sbeattie> jjohansen: since when is that allowed?
<sbeattie> :-)
<jjohansen> its not, but amanda decided to change the rules
<jjohansen> she wants her kitchen back
<sbeattie> heh
<jdstrand> hehe
<FelipeSalto> eaee gente blz?
#ubuntu-meeting 2010-12-14
<pitti> hello
<cjwatson> I didn't screw up the timezone, did I?  I can never remember whether Google Calendar is an hour off or not
<pitti> looks fine to me
<kees> \o
<mdz> cjwatson: hi
<cjwatson> Keybuk: around?
<cjwatson> I have been having a frustrating day involving elusive VESA BIOS specifications and repeated reboots, so a meeting is almost a welcome relief :P
<cjwatson> ok, we have quorum, Keybuk can join in if/when he notices
<cjwatson> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 09:02. The chair is cjwatson.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<cjwatson> [TOPIC] Action review
<MootBot> New Topic:  Action review
<Keybuk> cjwatson: I'm here
<cjwatson> are there any actions?  I saw none in the minutes from last time
<Keybuk> IRC client wasn't bouncing loud enough
<cjwatson> Keybuk: ah, hello
<Keybuk> cjwatson: my day has been less frustrating
<Keybuk> and there was christmas pudding
<cjwatson> lucky you ;-)
<cjwatson> I'll take it that there are no actions then
<cjwatson> [TOPIC] Reorganizing drivers/owners/release managers permissions in Launchpad (Matt Zimmerman)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Reorganizing drivers/owners/release managers permissions in Launchpad (Matt Zimmerman)
<cjwatson> mdz: you have the floor
<mdz> cjwatson: ok
<mdz> so it's time to throw the switch
<mdz> I want to make sure that we've told folks that this is happening, so that if there are rough edges, they know how to get them fixed
<mdz> I've passed the word down within Canonical
<mdz> but that's obviously not enough
<mdz> nothing should actually change in practice
<mdz> it's just cleaning up the disorganization in LP
<cjwatson> agreed; can we use ubuntu-release for the "release manager" role?
<mdz> that sounds appropriate; is that not already what's in the bug report?
<pitti> if we can't, there woudl still be something wrong in LP
<mdz> [link] https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/174375
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/174375
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 174375 in Launchpad Registry "Distribution drivers permissions may need redesign" [Low,Triaged]
<mdz> https://bugs.launchpad.net/launchpad-registry/+bug/174375/comments/17
<cjwatson> mdz: you said "Create a new team to fill the 'release manager' role, and populate it appropriately (if we don't already have one)"
<mdz> [link] https://bugs.launchpad.net/launchpad-registry/+bug/174375/comments/17
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://bugs.launchpad.net/launchpad-registry/+bug/174375/comments/17
<cjwatson> so I was just filling that in
<mdz> cjwatson: right, if ubuntu-release is the right set of people for those permissions, then we just use that
<mdz> if there should be some extra people in there for whatever reason, we should create a new team and put ubuntu-release into it
<cjwatson> well, ubuntu-release is kind of informational/social, and I don't think it currently occupies any explicit slots in LP
<mdz> oh
<cjwatson> so if we need to extend that team we can just extend it, IMO
<mdz> the other question is what to do with the 'maintainer' slot for Ubuntu
<mdz> that's the one which can do things like administer mirrors
<cjwatson> given the description in https://bugs.launchpad.net/launchpad-registry/+bug/174375/comments/18, I think it would be appropriate for that to be techboard
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 174375 in Launchpad Registry "Distribution drivers permissions may need redesign" [Low,Triaged]
<mdz> and announcements
<mdz> and AdminSpecification and EditSpecificationSubscription which sound like they should be ubuntu-drivers
<pitti> hm, u-release actually sounds more appropriate for this to me
<cjwatson> hm, well, announcements aren't all techboard
<cjwatson> yeah, I agree with pitti on reflection
<pitti> for both mirroring and annoucnements
<mdz> I think blueprint stuff should -> ubuntu-drivers
<pitti> ^ +1
<mdz> and announcements -> release manager
<pitti> that's tech leads, team managers, track leads, etc.
<pitti> the blueprint-fiddling folks
<cjwatson> it might also make sense to add techboard to ubuntu-release
<mdz> the more I think about it the less ready I feel...
<pitti> out of interest, where in LP does one assign the ubuntu-archive team?
<pitti> is that hardcoded?
<mdz> somebody needs to make another pass over this and write it down in a comprehensible form
<mdz> maintainer can do this, release series manager can do that, drivers can do this
<cjwatson> pitti: ubuntu-archive has queueadmin privileges on components
<cjwatson> you can see that with lp:ubuntu-archive-tools edit_acl.py
<pitti> cjwatson: ah, thanks
<pitti> mdz: do you still see something where we disagree?
<mdz> pitti: who do you think should be the 'maintainer' of ubuntu?
<pitti> mdz: ubuntu-release
<Keybuk> ubuntu-release seems obvious
<pitti> mdz: that's for announcements and mirrors, right?
<mdz> pitti: and AdminSpecification and EditSpecificationSubscription  and the other things in https://bugs.launchpad.net/launchpad-registry/+bug/174375/comments/18
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 174375 in Launchpad Registry "Distribution drivers permissions may need redesign" [Low,Triaged]
<cjwatson> -release is the team most naturally involved with that day-to-day; I agree with mdz that the specification stuff there should be moved to drivers
<mdz> so apparently people who need to be able to admin blueprints need to go in there
<pitti> mdz: those would be ubuntu-drivers IMHO
<mdz> pitti: they are currently inseparable
<Keybuk> isn't the only admin being the targetting to releases?
<pitti> https://launchpad.net/ubuntu has a separate "mirror admins", though
<mdz> how about this
<pitti> which already seems to be set correctly
<mdz> we set it up so that there is a team for each slot
<cjwatson> how about we create an ubuntu-maintainer team, which has ubuntu-release and ubuntu-drivers in it
<mdz> ubuntu-drivers, ubuntu-maintainers, ubuntu-release-managers
<cjwatson> ... is this GMTA?
<mdz> write down in the description of each team what it can actually do
<mdz> so that it's self-documenting
<pitti> mdz: blueprints and announcements are inseparable? wasn't this the very thing that this bug was all about?
<cjwatson> pitti: it was more about separating blueprint admin and bug supervision
<mdz> pitti: if so, it's not fixed, according to comment #17
<mdz> though bdmurray said he thought it was done
<mdz> we just passed the 3-year anniversary for this bug *sigh*
<mdz> I'd like to withdraw the agenda item until I can work on it some more
<mdz> unless someone wants to take it over from me
<cjwatson> your suggestion of writing things in the description of each team sounds good to me
<mdz> yeah, then all we need to do is get LP fixed...again
<cjwatson> ubuntu-maintainers can be a temporary team until the last bits of separation get fixed
<cjwatson> and it should be less damaging than the ubuntu-drivers conflation, and we'll actually more or less understand what it's for
<mdz> ok, I'll propose that as the first phase then
<cjwatson> except perhaps a better name than ubuntu-maintainers, since maintainer == developer for many people
<cjwatson> ubuntu-owner
<pitti> that might stir some emotional response
<mdz> I chose that because the Launchpad page says 'maintainer'
<mdz> but we could ask for that to be changed
<Keybuk> ubuntu-leads
<cjwatson> ubuntu-release-plus-drivers
<cjwatson> since that's what it is. :)
<pitti> and it's ugly enough to point out that it's a temporary team
<mdz> I'll draft an email to t-b and launchpad-dev and turn the crank on this again
<pitti> cjwatson: +1 :)
 * kees nods
<cjwatson> ok, are we done with this item for now then?
<mdz> yes
<cjwatson> [TOPIC] Appoint Ubuntu Launchpad stake holder
<MootBot> New Topic:  Appoint Ubuntu Launchpad stake holder
<mdz> there's no name next to this one?
<cjwatson> persia
<mdz> looks like it was pitti
<pitti> it was sent to the ML
<cjwatson> persia sent the mail to the list
<pitti> and we forgot about it last time
<cjwatson> I would like to clarify whether this is in addition to Marjo, or replacing him
<pitti> I understood "in addition" when I was talking to him
<cjwatson> I spoke to persia about this in Orlando, and we reached agreement then ... but I've forgotten what that agreement was
<cjwatson> the few stray neurons I have that remember that conversation think that this was essentially somebody to represent Ubuntu-as-project separately from the Ubuntu platform team
<pitti> I proposed Bryce, as he has written tons of scripts for Launchpad, and is also doing massive regular bug triage, and also has experience on LP hacking
<mdz> this is for Ubuntu, as opposed to Ubuntu Platform (part of Canonical)
<cjwatson> in that case my memory is accurate.  OK.
<kees> is it ours to appoint?
<kees> should this be TB or CC?
<cjwatson> how close an interaction does Bryce have with the wider Ubuntu community, beyond X?
<cjwatson> kees: I certainly think the representative should come from the development community; it's not strictly a technical matter but the TB may be better placed to judge
<Keybuk> it was definitely persia
<pitti> he hangs out in #ubuntu-desktop and discusses integration matters there as well
<cjwatson> Keybuk: since you're one of the people persia suggested, do you have any thoughts on this you'd like to share?
<Keybuk> I think I got shanghaid on the basis I'm going to shortly be the only TB member who won't be working at Canonical
<Keybuk> but I wasn't really clear on why that was important
<Keybuk> or indeed, why we needed a new and different stakeholder to LP than the one we already have
<pitti> I think the point was to have a strong voice who doesn't have a commercial bias/pressure
<Keybuk> I'd vaugely thought that we just needed a bigger stake to stab them with
<Keybuk> pitti: everyone has bias or pressure of some sort
<cjwatson> my understanding was that the Launchpad stakeholder meetings tend to be somewhat commercial-stake-driven, and that an explicit project representative would find it easier to stand apart from that
<pitti> right, they just need to average themselves out
<cjwatson> Launchpad certainly used to solicit input from the platform team and the Ubuntu community somewhat separately
<kees> is this stake-holder position something the LP team has agreed to having show up? (also, AIUI, such a person would need to sign an NDA due to some of the topics being discussed at the meeting)
<cjwatson> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/technical-board/2010-November/000571.html says that Francis agreed that this would be appropriate
<kees> okay
<cjwatson> as overall Launchpad manager I assume that he's authoritative on this :)
<cjwatson> do we need to reach agreement on whether this is an appropriate thing to do at all?
<mdz> I support it
<kees> I think it's reasonable
<cjwatson> my view is that I can't easily say whether it will definitely be useful, but since Marjo has asked us to try and Francis is receptive to it it seems worth a go
<cjwatson> I would like to hear from each of the suggested candidates before trying to select someone, though.  Does anyone feel that we should issue a wider call for nominations?
<kees> seems only fair -- if someone in ubuntu really wants to jump on this, we should give them a chance.
<pitti> my gut feeling is that three candidates are enough, and we already confirmed their willingness to act for this role; and as there are no particular hard privileges assigned to this, I don't think we really need a democratic vote of teh community here
<pitti> (not that I'd veto one, I just feel it's a bit overkill)
<Keybuk> well, except I'm not really sure I'm the right person
<kees> I'm fine with that too
<Keybuk> yet I ended up on the list ;)
<Keybuk> so I'm not so sure about confirmed their willingness
<Keybuk> :p
<pitti> Keybuk: hmkay -- that's what Emmet wrote, anyway
<cjwatson> sounds like a bit of chinese-whispers going on
<Keybuk> (not that I'm saying I'd be bad at it, I just suspect ENOTIME for the next several months)
<cjwatson> this sounds to me as though it would be worth a quick call for anyone else who's interested, and in parallel ask the existing candidates to send in a short note to technical-board@ describing their plans?
<cjwatson> Keybuk: would you like to explicitly excuse yourself, then?
<Keybuk> cjwatson: yes, for now
<cjwatson> OK
<Keybuk> if the position was regularly chosen, I may well put myself up for it in future, for example
<cjwatson> fair enough
<cjwatson> so shall I do the above as part of writing up minutes for this meeting, then?
<mdz> cjwatson: fine by me
<mdz> though we shouldn't wait too long
<mdz> persia already canvassed and got volunteers
<mdz> so we don't really need any more
<mdz> but if someone is dying for the job I don't mind them coming forward
<cjwatson> I agree, I was thinking no longer than two weeks
<kees> sure. could even go 1 week, just to avoid holidays, but yeah, 2 is fine.
<cjwatson> one week is OK by me
<cjwatson> [TOPIC] Schedule and chair (Matt Zimmerman)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Schedule and chair (Matt Zimmerman)
<cjwatson> I shall not be here on the 28th
<mdz> just some points of order
<mdz> I'll just paste from the wiki
<mdz> Next meeting is scheduled for 28 December
<mdz> Will we have quorum, or should we skip it?
<mdz> Mark is unavailable to chair 11 January
<mdz> will anyone else be absent the 28th?
<pitti> I won't be online
<pitti> I'm in a train on that day
<cjwatson> will Mark be around on the 28th?
<mdz> cjwatson: I don't know
<mdz> I've negotiated with clan that she will tell me when he's unavailable for TB
<kees> I won't be here the 28th
<mdz> so we don't end up without a chair
<cjwatson> sounds to me as though we'll be at most barely quorate on the 28th, and probably inquorate
<Keybuk> I'm unlikely to be available that day
<mdz> so no pitti, no cjwatson, no kees, no keybuk
<mdz> no quorum
<cjwatson> ok, that's a definite no.  next meeting on the 11th, then?
<pitti> sounds like skipping then
<mdz> so we just need a chair for the 11th
<cjwatson> next in alpha sequence is kees
<kees> \o/
<cjwatson> I'll take that as a yes :)
<kees> :)
<cjwatson> [TOPIC] Scan the mailing list archive for anything we missed
<MootBot> New Topic:  Scan the mailing list archive for anything we missed
<cjwatson> there are a few dangling items regarding SRUs and the like
<kees> 11th is the rally.
<cjwatson> are any of them currently blocked on TB approval?
<cjwatson> kees: I think we can probably manage, maybe with a time adjustment
<cjwatson> we have:
<cjwatson>   bzr (https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/technical-board/2010-December/000596.html
<cjwatson> )
<cjwatson>   xubuntu-docs (https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/technical-board/2010-December/000599.html)
<cjwatson>   linux (https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/technical-board/2010-December/000597.html)
<cjwatson> pitti: do you know which of those if any are outstanding?
<pitti> xubuntu and bzr are missing a few more votes
<pitti> which could just be sent to the ML (should be straightforward), then I'll add them to the exception page
<pitti> the kernel process has by and large been worked out now
<pitti> there was some misunderstanding at first
<pitti> but now it's by and large what we had before, just that we now copy from teh PPA instead of accepting from -proposed
<pitti> although there are still some technical difficulties, it didn't change on a policy level
<cjwatson> I will follow up to xubuntu-docs and bzr then
<cjwatson> ok
<cjwatson> Check up on community bugs: no change from last time
<cjwatson> [TOPIC] AOB
<MootBot> New Topic:  AOB
<mdz> I'd like to make a suggestion
<mdz> that we ask for AOB at the start of the meeting, rather than at the end
<mdz> so that if someone turns up with an issue, we can get it on the agenda and leave time for it if necessary
<Keybuk> you have OB, don't you? ;-)
<mdz> just that
<Keybuk> doesn't seem unreasonable
<cjwatson> I'm fine with that, I'll adjust the agenda
<kees> yeah
<Keybuk> should be a call for additional points or something
<mdz> so the first agenda item becomes "make sure the agenda is complete"
<mdz> I've started doing this in my meetings and it's more effective
<cjwatson> sounds like that's a wrap, then
<cjwatson> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 09:54.
<cjwatson> oh, mdz: thanks for organising that brainstorm review, it seems to have been a success
<mdz> cjwatson: indeed, the thanks goes to the folks who wrote the responses
<pitti> thanks everyone
<kees> thanks!
<hggdh> ~Ã´~
<hallyn_> \0
<Daviey>  /o\
<jjohansen> \o
<JamesPage> o/
<smoser> ok. weell, its that time of day again
<RoAkSoAx> o/
<SpamapS> \O/
<smoser> err... week.
<smoser> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/Meeting
<SpamapS> smoser: take us out Mr. Sulu
<smoser> how do i "start meeting " ?
<SpamapS> you say <pound>startmeeting
<SpamapS> or for some.. <hash>startmeeting
<zul> mmmm...hash
<smoser> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 10:02. The chair is smoser.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<robbiew> o/
 * robbiew will lurk today....call in 30min
<ScottK> \o
<smoser> hm.. seems my clever trick to get someone else to scribe has failed.
<JamesPage> smoser: nice try :-)
<smoser> fyi, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ScribesTeam/MootBot has such info
<smoser> [TOPIC] Review ACTION points from previous meeting
<MootBot> New Topic:  Review ACTION points from previous meeting
<smoser>  * ALL: please check the SRU tracker for 'needs-verification' bugs  [http://people.canonical.com/~chucks/SRUTracker/sru-tracker-bugs.html]
<SpamapS> Imre Gergely has been *heroic* in verifying server SRU's
<smoser> it looks like i need to take a look at that.
<smoser> and i will.
<smoser> thanks to Imre
<smoser>  * ACTION: robbiew to review ServerTeam wiki
<smoser> robbiew, ?
<robbiew> yeah..yeah...slowly but surely
<robbiew> keep it
<robbiew> damn it!
<smoser> [ACTION]: robbiew to review ServerTeam wiki [carried over]
<MootBot> ACTION received: : robbiew to review ServerTeam wiki [carried over]
<smoser>  * ACTION: Kernel team to follow up on bug 661294
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 661294 in linux (Ubuntu) "System lock-up when receiving large files (big data amount) from NFS server" [Medium,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/661294
<smoser> jjohansen, smb ?
<smb> I added some potential debuuging steps today
<smb> Though that is the one I am not able to reproduce
<SpamapS> smb: there are 2 users who are reproducing it consistently, right?
<smb> I think yes. A third one has opened another bug as he thinks it might be a too different setup
<smb> bug 688437
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 688437 in linux (Ubuntu) "NFS load locks processes and mounts" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/688437
<Daviey> smb: Would it help if we try and reproduce it?
<smb> Daviey, Sure, it helps to know what exactly triggers it
 * Daviey will try this.
<smb> The second bug seems to have some vmware involved. (at least on a quick look)
<smoser> Daviey, you want an action ?
<Daviey> smoser: Yeah... i have rouble with committment without an action item.
<smoser> [ACTION] Daviey to try to reproduce bug 661294
<MootBot> ACTION received:  Daviey to try to reproduce bug 661294
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 661294 in linux (Ubuntu) "System lock-up when receiving large files (big data amount) from NFS server" [Medium,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/661294
<smoser> hope that helps your rouble.
<Daviey> smoser: Yeah, that has changed my life for the better... thanks :)
<smoser> It sounds to me like smb has a handle on it.  if anyone else can add reproduce, that would be nice.
<smoser>  * ACTION: JamesPage to arrange URL for Hudson CI Server
<Daviey> ^ done
<JamesPage> Done: http://hudson.qa.ubuntu-uk.org:8080
<smoser> JamesPage, ^
<JamesPage> Cheers Daviey!
<smoser> gracias.
<Daviey> hah
<hggdh> FWIW, I have seen other bugs with a hang on remote FS, and a kernel trace involving sys_sync
<SpamapS> JamesPage: any reason that has to run on 8080 ?
<JamesPage> SpamapS: only my lack of time to make it run on port 80 - will do by the end of the week
<SpamapS> JamesPage: btw, that is amazing. ;)
<hggdh> SpamapS: not really, but now we have the firewall set, and I would rather not mess with it
<Daviey> to be fair, the subdomain only went live about 30 mins ago... give JamesPage a break :)
<hggdh> JamesPage: mind the firewall...
<JamesPage> hggdh - will do
<smoser>  * ACTION: spamaps to talk to his friend to try and get more info on Bug 684304
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 684304 in linux (Ubuntu Natty) "cciss module does not identify resources" [High,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/684304
<smb> btw it is not only cciss that has problems
<hggdh> just tried the options given by smb, but no luck (and a kernel trace)
<SpamapS> smb: oh?
<smb> hggdh, yep just saw it
<smb> sadly no luck
<SpamapS> I just spoke with him yesterday and he has the hardware in the rack but not hooked up to the network yet.. should be getting a DL360 G5 with ILO support to play with.
<smb> SpamapS, Yes, there is something odd going on here, all of the pcie root ports have msi not enabled and no drivers bound
<SpamapS> so carry that one forward, but maybe carry it forward as "spamaps to confirm bug #684304 on borrowed DL360 G5"
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 684304 in linux (Ubuntu Natty) "cciss module does not identify resources" [High,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/684304
<hggdh> smb: you are aware that you can play with the machines, right?
<smoser> [ACTION] spamaps to confirm bug #684304 on borrowed DL360 G5
<MootBot> ACTION received:  spamaps to confirm bug #684304 on borrowed DL360 G5
<smb> hggdh, No, you probably need to make me aware offline
<hggdh> ack
<smoser> [ACTION] hggdh to tell smb about how to get at machines
<MootBot> ACTION received:  hggdh to tell smb about how to get at machines
<smoser> next is
<smoser>  * ACTION: zul to request feedback on the install-service blueprint to the mailing list
<zul> not done
<Daviey> smoser: Is that a topic shift, or a warning what is the next stop?
<smoser> topic shift.
<smoser> [ACTION] zul to request feedback on the install-service blueprint to the mailing list (carry over)
<MootBot> ACTION received:  zul to request feedback on the install-service blueprint to the mailing list (carry over)
<smoser> moving on
<smoser> [TOPIC] Natty Development
<MootBot> New Topic:  Natty Development
<smoser> robbiew, are you leading this topic ?
<Daviey> I have one thing relevant under that topic....
<Daviey> Did everyone see the FTBFS email?
<JamesPage> Yep
<kirkland> Daviey: yup
<robbiew> sure...I'll start with I need someone to represent us in the weekly status meeting
<zul> ill do it
<Daviey> robbiew: rota? :)
<SpamapS> Daviey: indeed, looks like there are a few still left.
<kirkland> Daviey: one question about that ... what's difference between that and Lucas Nussbaum's?  that yours focuses on server packages, perhaps?
<Daviey> kirkland: mine is JUST the server seed.
<kirkland> Daviey: okay
<robbiew> zul: thnx
<kirkland> robbiew: what does that entail?
<smoser> so everyone should take a look at that and see if they can't knock off a few ftbfs.
<robbiew> Daviey: as long as the rotation doesn't involve me...I'm fine with it
<Daviey> robbiew: heh.
<robbiew> kirkland: means keeping https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/ReleaseStatus/Natty up-to-date
<Daviey> robbiew: assume this is the release meeting?
<Daviey> ah yes.
<robbiew> mostly just tracking the bug stuff
<kirkland> robbiew: ah
<robbiew> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/ReleaseStatus/Natty/Detail is generated from a script
<kirkland> robbiew: okay cool;  zul -- it's all yours :-P
<robbiew> and pulls into https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/ReleaseStatus/Natty
<robbiew> lol
<Daviey> zul: If you want a hand, lemme know. :)
<ScottK> Daviey: Server seed or server package set?
<SpamapS> robbiew: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/ReleaseStatus/Natty/Detail doesn't exist
<zul> Daviey: ack
<smoser> anything else here ?
<robbiew> SpamapS: add an "S"
<Daviey> ScottK: Seed
<kirkland> zul: (yeah, i'm happy to back you up too)
<ScottK> OK.  I thought there were Universe packages in there, but OK.
<robbiew> SpamapS: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/ReleaseStatus/NattyDetail
<SpamapS> ah
 * kim0 knocked off 2 ftbfss 
<smoser> anything else here ?
<smoser> hggdh, you're on
<smoser> [TOPIC] Weekly Updates & Questions for the QA Team (hggdh)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Weekly Updates & Questions for the QA Team (hggdh)
<hggdh> I am still dead in the water re. testing UEC
<robbiew> hggdh: is this to do with that kernel bug
<hggdh> I have requested two machines to be set local, but right now I simply cannot test any
<hggdh> robbiew: yes
<robbiew> smb is supposed to be looking at it
<hggdh> the only machines I currently have access to -- the UEC test rig have not been working on Nattty
<robbiew> was on patch pilot yesterday
<hggdh> this is blocking UEC testing
<smb> right, robbiew pinged me yesterday and I checked what I could about it
<hggdh> apart from that... JamesPage, myself, and others have been adding tests under Hudson. Contributions are welcome (and machines to run them under)
<smb> So atm we don't have anything new
<smoser> hggdh, i dont think it will affect you (my test was that it did not affect lucid UEC) but bug 688773 affects euca2ools on natty with python2.7
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 688773 in euca2ools (Ubuntu) "euca2ools give 'SignatureDoesNotMatch' error" [Undecided,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/688773
<smb> But maybe when I know how to play remotely
<hggdh> smoser: I will add it in to test when I can
<hggdh> thank you
<smoser> hggdh, well, if it fails, it will fail all over the place, as you wont be able to upload images :)
<smoser> anything else, hggdh ?
<hggdh> heh
<hggdh> no, I am done, smoser
<smoser> [TOPIC] Weekly Updates & Questions for the Kernel Team (smb)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Weekly Updates & Questions for the Kernel Team (smb)
<smb> There are more? :)
 * smoser claps for smb and bug 651370
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 651370 in linux (Ubuntu Maverick) "ec2 kernel crash invalid opcode 0000 [#1]" [Medium,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/651370
<smoser> and i'm under the impression that bug 667796 is soon to be fixed
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 667796 in linux (Ubuntu Maverick) "kernel only recognizes 32G of memory" [Medium,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/667796
<smb> Thanks, though I think that was still jjohansen at work
<smb> smoser, right that one is simply the option
<smoser> and also that jjohansen is epxecting to push bug 614853 into lucid (with the wonderful patch attached there)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 614853 in linux-ec2 (Ubuntu) "kernel panic divide error: 0000 [#1] SMP" [Medium,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/614853
<smb> its in the next proposed kernel
<smb> I hope so, though we would need to ask him
<smoser> all in all, i'm quite happy. i expect to have refreshed maverick images as soon as that one gets into maverick-proposed
<smb> I had been tied up severely by a support escalation and another nfs bug
<jjohansen> smb: no its not yet, and I believe its likely causing another bug
<smoser> and hiping for lucid update this week, which will include lucid images that can be booted with pv-grub
<smoser> s/hiping/hoping/
<smb> (or to say which was another nfs bug)
<smoser> that will make jjohansen and smb's life easier, as pv-grub makes kernel testing much easier.
<jjohansen> \o/
<SpamapS> I haven't tried natty on ec2 yet.. is it working?
<smoser> [ACTION] smoser to write a blog entry on how to use grub 'fallback' with our images.
<MootBot> ACTION received:  smoser to write a blog entry on how to use grub 'fallback' with our images.
<smb> except micro it should by now
<smb> SpamapS, ^
<smoser> SpamapS, natty boots on non-t1.micro
<smoser> and... possibly (if ami-2470864d works) we have an hvm image now (cluster compute)
<smoser> smb, jjohansen the other bug that I see getting hit in maverick is bug 613273
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 613273 in linux (Ubuntu) "kernel panic on ec2 in system_call_fastpath" [Medium,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/613273
<SpamapS> ack
<smoser> although my "in system call fastpath" description is probably competely bogus
<smb> well it only means in a system call
<smoser> right. not generally helpful.
<smoser> so thats all from me...
<smb> I will update the description when I know more
<smb> There was one I was looking at today which had mostly screenshots as jpg which is hard to reassemble in mind
<smoser> smb, i can provide more console logs (i think) if necessary from https://code.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-on-ec2/ubuntu-on-ec2/ec2-test-results
<smoser> anyone else have anything for kernel team ?
<smoser> [TOPIC] Weekly Updates & Questions for the Documentation Team (sommer)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Weekly Updates & Questions for the Documentation Team (sommer)
<smoser> mr sommer ?
<sommer> hey all, don't have anything new this week
<sommer> should have time to works on docs soon
<sommer> :-)
<smoser> any one have questions for the great sommer ?
<SpamapS> sommer: wb!
<smoser> if not, then we move onto kim0
<smoser> [TOPIC] Weekly Updates & Questions for the Ubuntu Community Team (kim0)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Weekly Updates & Questions for the Ubuntu Community Team (kim0)
<kim0> Hey everyone
<kim0> Daviey has agreed himself to be bugged about identifying venues for community contributions to cloud related projects
<kim0> Such venues will be featured on the cloud portal, and regularly advertised on our communication channels (blogs, twitter, FB, IRC events ...etc), with the aim of hopefully attracting more contributors
<kim0> I think it shouldn't be overly technical, however still fairly challenging
<SpamapS> kim0: have you linked to harvest from the cloud portal yet btw?
<SpamapS> kim0: last time I looked, harvest was pretty low on server specific stuff to do
<kim0> I think I need a good way to link cloud stuff to harvest first
<kim0> the portal is only cloud btw ..
<SpamapS> the cloud is the server is the cloud ;)
<kim0> not sure .. cloud seems to be part of server for me
<kim0> anyway, @everyone, if you think something cloudy you're working on, is a good candidate for community contributions, please send suggestions to me kim0@ubuntu.com
<zul> well....a cloud would be nice if you have something to run in it
 * kim0 hugs Daviey for all the help
<smoser> for anyone not aware, kim0 is making some really nice blog posts that can be seen there on the http://cloud.ubuntu.com or at http://foss-boss.blogspot.com/
<Daviey> kim0: Ubuntu One is personal cloud... covering that? :)
<kim0> Daviey: I guess it would count :)
<kim0> smoser: and screencasts
<kim0> which brings up the other topic
<smoser> i really liked http://foss-boss.blogspot.com/2010/11/ubuntu-server-in-ec2-cloud-easy.html
<kim0> any suggestions on "trainings" or screencasts
<smoser> kim0, one thing... you should be syndicated on "cloud planet" if you are not already
<kim0> you guys think would be useful
<kim0> please flood me
<SpamapS> There is no 'cloud' section of harvest, and the ubuntu-server section has *one* package.. erlang
<kim0> smoser: where is that ? isn't that the one on the portal ?
<smoser> hm.. i guess you handled it.
<kim0> smoser: yep ..
<smoser> nijaba, used to have it.
<smoser> ok. good.
<kim0> aha yeah .. I'm on that
<kim0> SpamapS: I can add a cloud section to harvest
<kim0> I'd just need you guys to point at some jobs
<kim0> the community can help with
<kim0> that's really all for me .. don't forget .. flood me :)
<smoser> [TOPIC] Open Discussion
<MootBot> New Topic:  Open Discussion
 * RoAkSoAx has an announcement to make!
 * kim0 makes drum roll
<RoAkSoAx> The Cluster Stack is Finally in Main!!
<kim0> woohooo
<nijaba> \o/
<SpamapS> oohhhh snap
<Daviey> RoAkSoAx: Awesome!!
<RoAkSoAx> Next steps are to enable some missing features, update to latest versions, and continue with the research on HA for UEC
<nijaba> RoAkSoAx really rocks
<RoAkSoAx> and will announce it via blog post and ML later today
<kim0> RoAkSoAx: awesome
<Daviey> RoAkSoAx: Does it need better docs?
<RoAkSoAx> Daviey: well I wanna get docs into the server guide
<RoAkSoAx> that's also what I've planned for this cycle
<Daviey> RoAkSoAx -> talk with sommer... :)
<smoser> [TOPIC] Announce next meeting date and time
<MootBot> New Topic:  Announce next meeting date and time
<sommer> I'll help definitely
<smoser> next meeting: Tuesday 2010-12-21 at 1600 UTC
<Daviey> sommer: \o/
<smoser> i'm sure it will be well attended, since lots of people will have more time for such things since they'll be taking vacation.
<SpamapS> yeah the community will probably show up in droves. ;)
<zul> ill be on vacation :)
<JamesPage> me too :-)
<Daviey> zul: Great... turn up as a community member :)
<zul> Daviey: umm....no :)
<kim0> hehe
<smoser> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 10:49.
<SpamapS> quick, shut it down!
 * zul is going to go see tron that day
<RoAkSoAx> lol
<sommer> yay for tron!
<RoAkSoAx> i could have watched it yesterday if I haven;t had to graduate
<SpamapS> boo for sark!
<SpamapS> RoAkSoAx: congrats!
<Daviey> RoAkSoAx: priorities!
<RoAkSoAx> thanks ;)
 * JFo straggles in
 * ara waves
<JFo> straggling is very tiring
<JFo> ara! :)
 * smb \o
 * cking \o
<JFo> o/
<sconklin> \o
<bjf> #
<bjf> # lets "get 'er done"!
<bjf> #
<bjf> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 11:00. The chair is bjf.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<bjf> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/Meeting
<bjf> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/ReleaseStatus/Maverick
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/Meeting
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/ReleaseStatus/Maverick
<bjf> #
<bjf> # NOTE: '..' indicates that you are finished with your input.
<bjf> #
<bjf> [TOPIC] ARM Status (bjf)
<MootBot> New Topic:  ARM Status (bjf)
<bjf>  * Marvel (mvl-dove)
<bjf>    * Nothing new this week.
<bjf>  * Texas Instruments (ti-omap)
<bjf>    * Bug 633227: Native building crash.
<bjf>      * Tested with Linaro 2.6.37 kernel which is close to upstream mainline. Native building still fails even with highmem disabled.
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 633227 in linux-ti-omap4 (Ubuntu Natty) "instabilities with highmem activated" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/633227
<bjf>    * X-loader and U-boot update from TI.
<bjf>    * Received 1700+ patch update from TI for 2.6.35 based Natty branch. This has been submitted to the mailing list, applied and pushed.
<bjf>  * Freescale i.MX51
<bjf>    * Bug 605042: Java crash issue.
<bjf>      * Due to a lack of FSL HW in the kernel team this has been difficult to diagnose. However, some testing was done on a Babbage 2.0
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 605042 in eglibc (Ubuntu Natty) "[armel] java fails to start with eglibc-2.12-0ubuntu4" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/605042
<bjf>        board but was unable to reproduce the issue.
<bjf> ..
<tgardner> I uploaded ti-omap4 for natty this AM.
<tgardner> It includes a new BSP from TI, over 1700 patches since Maverick.
<tgardner> ..
<bjf> [TOPIC] Release Metrics (JFo)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Release Metrics (JFo)
<JFo> Release Meeting Bugs (8 bugs, 14 Blueprints)
<JFo> ==== Alpha 2 Milestoned Bugs (28 across all packages (up 10)) ====
<JFo>  * 1 linux kernel bugs (no change)
<JFo>  * 0 linux-ti-omap bugs (no change)
<JFo>  * 0 linux-meta-ti-omap bug (no change)
<JFo> ==== Release Targeted Bugs (133 across all packages (up 7)) ====
<JFo>  * 11 linux kernel bugs (up 2)
<JFo>  * 0 linux-ti-omap bugs (no change)
<JFo>  * 0 linux-meta-ti-omap bug (no change)
<JFo> ==== Milestoned Features ====
<JFo>  * 6 blueprints (Including HWE Blueprints)
<JFo> ==== Maverick Updates Bugs ====
<JFo>  * 54 Linux Bugs (up 2)
<JFo> ==== Lucid Updates Bugs
<JFo>  * 111 Linux Bugs (no change)
<JFo> ==== Bugs with Patches Attached:142 (up 2) ====
<JFo>  * [[https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux/+bugs?field.has_patch=on | Bugs with Patches]]
<JFo>  * [[http://qa.ubuntu.com/reports/ogasawara/csv-stats/bugs-with-patches/linux/ | Breakdown by status]]
<JFo> ..
<bjf> [TOPIC] Blueprints: Natty Bug Handling (JFo)
<bjf> [LINK] https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/hardware-kernel-n-bug-handling
<MootBot> New Topic:  Blueprints: Natty Bug Handling (JFo)
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/hardware-kernel-n-bug-handling
<JFo> nothing to report.
<JFo> ..
<bjf> [TOPIC] Blueprints: Enhancements to the firmware test suite (cking)
<bjf> [LINK] https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/hardware-kernel-n-firmware-test-suite-enhancements
<MootBot> New Topic:  Blueprints: Enhancements to the firmware test suite (cking)
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/hardware-kernel-n-firmware-test-suite-enhancements
<cking> Changes to fwts (natty development branch):
<cking>  * Method test - check for null object returns
<cking>  * s4 - check for swap before hibernate
<cking> ..
<bjf> [TOPIC] Blueprints: Handling of Deviations from Standard Kernels (smb)
<bjf> [LINK] https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/hardware-kernel-n-stable-frankenkernel-maintenance
<MootBot> New Topic:  Blueprints: Handling of Deviations from Standard Kernels (smb)
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/hardware-kernel-n-stable-frankenkernel-maintenance
<smb> The last piece (script) has been started but users, support and other incidents have a tendency of getting into the path of progress *sigh*. Translation: nothing new
<smb> ..
<bjf> [TOPIC] Blueprints: Review of the Stable Maintenance Process (sconklin / bjf)
<bjf> [LINK] https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/hardware-kernel-n-stable-process-review
<MootBot> New Topic:  Blueprints: Review of the Stable Maintenance Process (sconklin / bjf)
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/hardware-kernel-n-stable-process-review
<sconklin> Kernels for both Lucid and Maveric had all associated bugs verified last week.
<sconklin> This means that it was not necessary to revert any fixes or re-upload the kernels,
<sconklin> as described in the stable cadence process:
<sconklin> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Kernel/StableReleaseCadence
<sconklin> This means that the kernels currently in -proposed could immediately enter
<sconklin> the Testing phase by the Cert and QA teams.
<sconklin> Thanks to everyone who tested their bugs promptly. This is the optimal
<sconklin> way to run the new process, with fast testing and no reverts. It's been
<sconklin> a little chaotic at times, and I'd like to thank the archive admins, members
<sconklin> of the cert team, and everyone else who is helping shepard this new process
<sconklin> through the first few cycles.
<sconklin> All releases other than Lucid and Maverick (except Hardy) have new packages
<sconklin> in -proposed, which contain only security CVE fixes. Hardy is delayed due to
<sconklin> a problem we encountered in moving to the new non-virtualized build ppa, and
<sconklin> should be built by the end of this week.
<sconklin> Testing status for these security-only kernels is unknown. They do not follow
<sconklin> the same testing process as the Lucid and Maverick stable kernels.
<sconklin> Most members of the kernel team are on holiday until after the new year. We
<sconklin> plan to try to upload -proposed kernels to begin a new cycle by Friday, Jan 7th.
<sconklin> ..
<bjf> [TOPIC] Status: Current -proposed testing by cert. team  (ara)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Status: Current -proposed testing by cert. team  (ara)
<ara> Hello!
<ara> Very little to update at this point.
<ara> The certifcation testing has started for Lucid proposed kernel, but we cannot report on results yet.
<ara> cr3 and brendand are working hard on this and they should be able to have results for both Maverick and Lucid before the end of the week
<ara> ..
<JFo> welcome to the meeting ara :)
<JFo> .
<JFo> ..
<ara> JFo, thanks
<bjf> [TOPIC] Status: Natty (apw)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Status: Natty (apw)
<tgardner> The Natty kernel is at 2.6.37-9.22 (rebased against 2.6.37-rc5).  Items of interest include:
<tgardner> 1) A number of external drivers have been updated: dm-raid4-5, omnibook, ndiswrapper, and iscsitarget.
<tgardner> 2) The module RO/NX patches have been re-instated with bug fixes.
<tgardner> 3) 2.6.37-rc6 is imminent and will likely be the last kernel version until after the holidays.
<tgardner> 4) New firmware files to support new intel wifi adapters in the 6000 and 6050 family.
<tgardner> ..
<bjf> [TOPIC] Security & bugfix kernels - Maverick/Lucid/Karmic/Hardy/Dapper (sconklin / bjf)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Security & bugfix kernels - Maverick/Lucid/Karmic/Hardy/Dapper (sconklin / bjf)
<sconklin> | Package                                  | Upd/Sec              | Proposed             |  TiP | Verified |
<sconklin> |                                          |                      |                      |      |          |
<sconklin> | karmic   linux-ec2                       | 2.6.31-307.22        | 2.6.31-307.23        |    0 |        0 |
<sconklin> | ---      linux                           | 2.6.31-22.69         | 2.6.31-22.70         |    0 |        0 |
<sconklin> |                                          |                      |                      |      |          |
<sconklin> | lucid    linux-ec2                       | 2.6.32-310.21        | 2.6.32-311.23        |    3 |        3 |
<sconklin> | ---      linux-ports-meta                | 2.6.32.26.19         | 2.6.32.27.20         |    0 |        0 |
<sconklin> | ---      linux-lts-backport-maverick     | 2.6.35-22.34~lucid1  | 2.6.35-23.41~lucid1  |    0 |        0 |
<sconklin> | ---      linux-backports-modules-2.6.32  | 2.6.32-26.25         | 2.6.32-27.26         |    0 |        0 |
<sconklin> | ---      linux                           | 2.6.32-26.48         | 2.6.32-27.49         |    3 |        3 |
<sconklin> | ---      linux-meta                      | 2.6.32.26.28         | 2.6.32.27.29         |    0 |        0 |
<sconklin> | ---      linux-meta-ec2                  | 2.6.32.310.11        | 2.6.32.311.12        |    0 |        0 |
<sconklin> |                                          |                      |                      |      |          |
<sconklin> | maverick linux-backports-modules-2.6.35  | 2.6.35-23.13         | 2.6.35-24.15         |    0 |        0 |
<sconklin> | ---      linux-ports-meta                | 2.6.35.23.17         | 2.6.35.24.18         |    0 |        0 |
<sconklin> | ---      linux-meta                      | 2.6.35.23.25         | 2.6.35.24.28         |    0 |        0 |
<sconklin> | ---      linux                           | 2.6.35-23.41         | 2.6.35-24.42         |   14 |       14 |
<sconklin> |                                          |                      |                      |      |          |
<sconklin> ..
<bjf> [TOPIC] Incoming Bugs: Regressions (JFo)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Incoming Bugs: Regressions (JFo)
<JFo> Incoming Bugs
<JFo>  38 Natty Bugs (up 6)
<JFo>  1127 Maverick Bugs (up 14)
<JFo>  1096 Lucid Bugs (down 14)
<JFo> Current regression stats (broken down by release):
<JFo> ==== regression-update ====
<JFo>   * 26 maverick bugs (up 1)
<JFo>   * 76 lucid bugs (down 7)
<JFo>   * 6 karmic bugs (no change)
<JFo>   * 0 hardy bugs (no change)
<JFo> ==== regression-release ====
<JFo>   * 177 maverick bugs (up 2)
<JFo>   * 198 lucid bugs (no change)
<JFo>   * 40 karmic bugs (no change)
<JFo>   * 2 hardy bugs (no change)
<JFo> ==== regression-proposed ====
<JFo>   * 13 maverick bugs (no change)
<JFo>   * 3 lucid bugs (down 3)
<JFo>   * 1 karmic bug (no change)
<JFo> .
<JFo> ..
<bjf> [TOPIC] Incoming Bugs: Bug day report (JFo)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Incoming Bugs: Bug day report (JFo)
<JFo> The next bug day will be next week. I'd like for that one to focus on regression-proposed bugs
<JFo> since the ones that I have on my list have been there too long to be seriously considered as legitimate
<JFo> bugs in the proposed queue. I've decided to use this small segment of bugs due to the majority
<JFo> of interested people being on holiday.
<JFo> ..
<bjf> [TOPIC] Triage Status (JFo)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Triage Status (JFo)
<JFo> I have begun testing the script that replaces one tag with another. There is a pre-existing script
<JFo> that bjf made me aware of, and I am looking at that for some of the other scripts I have/had planned.
<JFo> ..
<bjf> [TOPIC] Open Discussion or Questions: Raise your hand to be recognized (o/)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Open Discussion or Questions: Raise your hand to be recognized (o/)
<JFo> o/
<bjf> one thing i'd like to point out is that this will be the last irc meeting of this year, the next will likely be Jan. 4, 2011
<bjf> JFo, go
<JFo> If I don't speak to some of you before the holidays, Happy Holidays!! Hope you enjoy your vacations.
<JFo> ..
<JFo> :-)
<sconklin> +1
<kamal> happy holidays all!
<ara> Happy holidays!
<smb> \o/
<smb> and +1
<bjf> thanks everyone
<bjf> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 11:14.
<jjohansen> thanks bjf
<kamal> thanks bjf
<JFo> thanks bjf
<ara> thanks all!
<smb> thanks bjf
<sconklin> thanks!
<ara> you run a fast meeting!
<JFo> heh
<JFo> we are infamous for that ara :)
<smb> ara, we don't like long ones
<bioterror> good evening
<Emerling> bioterror, good evening hi
<JackyAlcine> Good evening, everyone. I'm pretty excited.
<ChrisDruif> Your here too JackyAlcine?
<Emerling> JackyAlcine, :D congratulation
<JackyAlcine> ChrisDruif: Yup. :D
<tenach> :)
<ChrisDruif> I might still be here when the meeting starts....still gotta finish something <_<"
<JackyAlcine> I'll leave the window open; just so I can check up on it.
<bioterror> hi phillw  ;)
<phillw> bioterror: nervous yet?
<bioterror> nope
<phillw> well, you should be... having people decide if you are a fit and proper person is an ordeal. I trust you are preapred.
<JackyAlcine> Fit for what?
<JackyAlcine> And time remaining?
<ChrisDruif> Thought the same JackyAlcine xD
<JackyAlcine> you have a launchpad, ChrisDruif ?
<ChrisDruif> I don't think so, sorry...:)
<phillw> JackyAlcine: , ChrisDruif https://wiki.ubuntu.com/phillw#Testimonials
<ChrisDruif> I'm just here to help....don't wanna fuss with a launchpad page of myself...
<JackyAlcine> Oh, okay. :D
<ChrisDruif> Did you mean this with launchpad: https://launchpad.net/~chrisdruif
<JackyAlcine> I'm not sure if I either missed the meeting or it hasn't started.
<bioterror> starts in 20 minutes
<bioterror> if you
<bioterror> if you're talking about the beginners team
<JackyAlcine> Okay, thanks bioterror
<UndiFineD> o/
<head_victim> \o
<JackyAlcine> :D
<hajour> \o
#ubuntu-meeting 2010-12-15
<JackyAlcine> \o
<bioterror> who leads themeeting?
<ChrisDruif> I haven't got forever....it's 1 am over here :P
<bioterror> it's 2am in here
<bioterror> and my alarm rings 05:15
<tenach> I'll be for the meeting in a few.
<ChrisDruif> I feel your pain bioterror, but I haven't set a alarm...(I've got that luxury xD)
<bioterror> I gotta travel by train in the morning
<JackyAlcine> ?
<bioterror> so no meeting?
<phillw> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 18:24. The chair is phillw.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<phillw> #topic I'm sorry that the rest of team are not here, but I'd like to at least thank people who have stayed up
<UndiFineD> :)
<head_victim> phillw: psst, you need to use [TOPIC]
<phillw> There are 4 topics to discuss, along with the ususal things.
<starcraftman> go phillw!
<phillw> Whilst we cannot hold votes, I would appreciate peoples ideas on the agenda
<phillw> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BeginnersTeam/Meetings
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BeginnersTeam/Meetings
<phillw> hiyas cprofitt can you take the chair over from me please,
<cprofitt> phillw: sure
<cprofitt> now sure how to do that though
<starcraftman> your doing fine phillw, for the record :)
<cprofitt> sorry for being late
<starcraftman> hmmm, don't think ya can transfer chairs, end meeting and start again?
<phillw> there are exactly zero UBT council people on here.
<cprofitt> I am here now
<phillw> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 18:32.
<cprofitt> would have been there on time, but one of the children had an issue
<cprofitt> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 18:32. The chair is cprofitt.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<starcraftman> phillw: my zerglings don't count eh, even if they are big?
<cprofitt> thanks for being patient folks -- sorry about being late
<cprofitt> Phillw did you go over your items?
<starcraftman> cprofitt: we got to the link to the agenda.
<cprofitt> ok
* cprofitt changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: membership approval vote
<phillw> cprofitt: It really does seem like a complete waste of time, there is not a quorum, so no votes can be held & I've help people up way past their bedtimes.
<cprofitt> the basic idea is stay as is -- everyone present votes
<cprofitt> phillw: I am not aware of us requiring a qurom
<cprofitt> with our global membership we really do not have that ability via IRC
<phillw> cprofitt: I propose jarred
<cprofitt> jarred?
<UndiFineD> head_victim
<cprofitt> ah...
<starcraftman> if we don't have enough for votes we can always talk then vote on ml.
<cprofitt> starcraftman: I, again, am not aware of us requiring a qurom
<head_victim> Here
<starcraftman> cprofitt: well, regardless of that, we don't have many to start with it seems.
<phillw> cprofitt: Jared, A crazy mad Australian (as they all are) (https://wiki.ubuntu.com/JaredNorris), who has the knowledge, time and patience to help people who now belongs to phillw (https://wiki.ubuntu.com/phillw) He's a great guy with a wonderful sense of humour. As a padawan for UBT (see ;padawan or https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BeginnersTeam)
<cprofitt> phillw: ah... thanks... but not sure that is on topic currently
<cprofitt> membership changes
<cprofitt> is what we are currently on
<cprofitt> the options are - stay as is with team vote by attending members each meeting or change to a process which involves the council voting.
<phillw> cprofitt: I fully support what you have proposed at option 2, it is most of what I have then also proposed.
<cprofitt> the council vote if adopted would include current members and community members being able to leave testimonials on a prospective member and the council would then vote
<phillw> cprofitt: you have a massive +1 from me for the council vote.
<cprofitt> [vote] all those in favor of council approved membershi process
<MootBot> Please vote on:  all those in favor of council approved membershi process.
<MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
<MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
<cprofitt> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from cprofitt. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
<phillw> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from phillw. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2
<bioterror> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from bioterror. 3 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 3
<tenach> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from tenach. 4 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 4
<cprofitt> anymore votes?
<starcraftman> +0
<MootBot> Abstention received from starcraftman. 4 for, 0 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 4
 * starcraftman doesn't care either way, votes don't make the team.
<cprofitt> last call for votes
<cprofitt> [endvote]
<MootBot> Final result is 4 for, 0 against. 1 abstained. Total: 4
<cprofitt> [agreed] the council will now approve members based on testimonials
<MootBot> AGREED received:  the council will now approve members based on testimonials
<cprofitt> phillw: I see your propsal, but would like to offer what our current process is....
<cprofitt> it currently involves the team lead, associated team and the council
<cprofitt> with the final decision being a council decision
<cprofitt> does your proposal change that
* cprofitt changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: mentor approval process
<phillw> cprofitt: my proposal was a reinforcement of the council granting mentorship to people.
<cprofitt> ok... so no need for a vote or a change then?
<phillw> cprofitt: the only thing I would comment on, is that UBT has a member, who is not granted mentorship status... but that is covered more in topic 4 :)
<cprofitt> ok
* cprofitt changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: accessibility focus group
<cprofitt> phillw: we have a process for forming a new focus group
<cprofitt> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BeginnersTeam/FGCreation
<cprofitt> also,... there are times when a sub-group can be created under the umbrella of an existing larger team
<phillw> I'm sorry, that at such short notice that their team leader cannot be here. As you will know, I am a proponent of accessibility
<cprofitt> our intent was to not have a constant flow of launchpad teams, irc channels and mailing lists
<cprofitt> phillw: I agree with accessibility and it was one of my UDS take-a-ways to enlarge the roll that UBT has with that
<cprofitt> the real question is if the team requires its own 'FG' or can it exist under a current one
<phillw> cprofitt: as accessibility covers such a wide area, having sub teams within it is more manageable. (they already have one)
<cprofitt> so currently we have documentation, user support, bugs and documentation
<cprofitt> I see all of those core teams having roles in accessibility
<phillw> cprofitt: as it is drawing in devs, coders, admin, documentors - I do honestly think that it needs a FG
<cprofitt> I would recommend following the steps here --> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BeginnersTeam/FGCreation
<cprofitt> the council can then work with the accessibility team to determine if / when we can form a sep. FG for it
<phillw> cprofitt: all teams work together, but having an accessibility FG will go along way towards Jono said at ADS-N
<phillw> *UDS-N
 * cprofitt nods
<cprofitt> please read the page and we can follow-up on the creation of a FG team
<phillw> cprofitt: task it to me, I will get it doen.
<phillw> *done*
<cprofitt> [task] phillw to work with accessibility team and council to consider forming a FG for accessibility
* cprofitt changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: lubuntu
<cprofitt> take it away phillw
<phillw> he he...... the one that has been causing the council people so many headaches.
<phillw> We are not fully adopted, but kindly taught by teams as if we are.
<cprofitt> not following phillw
<phillw> People who find lubuntu are usually experienced, so them wishing to help new comers is a big plus.
* Pici changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs  | Google Calendar doesn't understand UTC.  Please check in UTC time and confirm meeting times on the fridge
<Pici> /topic isn't a mootbot command
<cprofitt> please continue phillw
<starcraftman> phillw: you want us to do some work for lubuntu itself? Promotion? support?
<phillw> as part of the discussions, it was stated that Lubuntu is fairly self sustaining, and we have some really experienced people who are prepared to help padawans. My proposal is that via all the Lubuntu needs a padawan will be very well suited to apply for UBT, and ubuntu membership
<cprofitt> alright... thanks phillw
<cprofitt> phillw: you are putting forth head_victim for a vote?
<phillw> cprofitt: I keep tripping over MOTUs' :D
<cprofitt> our last team vote after the adoption of our new membership process?
<cprofitt> [vote] all in favor of head_victim as a member
<MootBot> Please vote on:  all in favor of head_victim as a member.
<MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
<MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
<phillw> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from phillw. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
<ubuxubu> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from ubuxubu. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2
<starcraftman> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from starcraftman. 3 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 3
<head_victim> For those that don't know me https://wiki.ubuntu.com/JaredNorris has some info
<cprofitt> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from cprofitt. 4 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 4
<cprofitt> any more votes?
<head_victim> Just in case
<bioterror> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from bioterror. 5 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 5
<cprofitt> last call for votes
 * JackyAlcine is away: I'm busy
 * JackyAlcine is back (gone 00:00:01)
<cprofitt> [endvote]
<MootBot> Final result is 5 for, 0 against. 0 abstained. Total: 5
<cprofitt> [agreed] head_victim is a UBT member
<MootBot> AGREED received:  head_victim is a UBT member
<starcraftman> cprofitt: not leaving much time for intros eh? :)
<cprofitt> we will have to wait for nhandler or another irc op to give you voice in channel
<cprofitt> starcraftman: yeah sorry...
<cprofitt> alright 8:00 on the dot folks
<cprofitt> thanks for coming to the meeting!
<cprofitt> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 19:00.
<cprofitt> mootbot appears to be a tad off on the time :-)
<cprofitt> ok folks... we can move to our channel
 * JackyAlcine is away: Message me if needed.
<UndiFineD> congrats head_victim !
 * JackyAlcine is back (gone 00:00:27)
<head_victim> UndiFineD: thanks :)
<ChrisDruif> Congratz head_victim :)
 * ubuxubu motions head_victim to stand up and recite his acceptance speech...
<ChrisDruif> +1
<head_victim> Thanks one and all glad I got up early to attend
<hajour> congratulations head_victim
<UBuxuBU> meeting adjourned!
<leomanFX> hi
<cjwatson> robbiew: sorry, I tried to make it onto mumble but it wasn't having any of it today :-/
<robbiew> cjwatson: no worries
<robbiew> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 10:02. The chair is robbiew.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<Keybuk> Mumble isn't working for me today either
<Keybuk> SSO refuses to believe I'm a member of any teams or something
<robbiew> yeah...I have to stop chrome browser
<robbiew> then I can start it
<ev> Keybuk: well, you're not.
<robbiew> I suspect pulseaudio
<Keybuk> ev: I am under scott@canonical.com
<ev> Didn't you get the memo?  You were fired for bringing down codehosting the other day.
<Keybuk> they still haven't fixed that
<ev> of course they haven't, it's Launchpad
<robbiew> [TOPIC] Lightning Round
<MootBot> New Topic:  Lightning Round
<robbiew> ev?
<ev> damn, first
<robbiew> evnizzle
 * ev types furiously
<ev> hahahaha
<mvo> hi
<robbiew> mvo: hi
<robbiew> ev: we'll circle back ;)
<ev> thanks!
<robbiew> barry?
<barry> ftbfs fixed, worked on, inprogress: 685180 (nipy, scikit-learn, cvxopt), 685177 (psyco), 685479 (pyclutter), 685469 (pymvpa), 688721 (shogun), 594919 (pyliblzma), 685492 (python-evas), 685486 (python-ecore), 685495 (python-hildon), 688862 (pycaml); platform futures meeting; udd blueprint work items; python bug 10687 (abiflags); done.
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 10687 in gdb (Ubuntu) "Please eliminate Build-Dep: type-handling" [High,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/10687
<robbiew> nice...thanks
<barry> heh, not that one ubottu
<robbiew> cjwatson: ?
<cjwatson> done: GRUB background colour and automatic resolution detection (OMG complexity but now works I think); should now hand off quite smoothly to Plymouth at least under good conditions - text-free boot!
<cjwatson> todo: review debconf GNOME->GtkAssistant patch; glue in maverick backport kernels for 10.04.2; start back in on porting CD boot screens to GRUB
<cjwatson> --
 * robbiew is reminded to test the new grub stuff ;)
<robbiew> cjwatson: thnx!
<robbiew> doko:?
<cjwatson> it works better with a kernel tweak that's not been uploaded yet
<robbiew> cjwatson: ah..okay
<robbiew> I'll wait
<cjwatson> but that's on its way
<robbiew> :)
<doko> - more python2.7 work, current status: main can be upgraded besides xen-3.3, still some packages use libpython2.6 only, so have to be investigated.
<doko> - upgrade issue: python-defaults for maverick-updates needed, better yesterday than today.
<doko> - eucalyptus/openjdk-6 fixes for maverick
<doko> - openjdk-7 update in openjdk PPA
<doko> - toolchain updates for Linaro 2010-12 releases
<doko> - fixing package build failures (~100 together with python2.7 fixes)
<doko> - get component-mismatches down to 1 needed for promotion
<doko> done
<doko> and universe is down to 8 uninstallable packages requiring python (<< 2.7)
<robbiew> \o/
<robbiew> wow
<mvo> nice
<robbiew> thnx doko
<robbiew> mvo:?
<mvo> Deb-thumbnailer: work making it suitable for main; apt: merged new debian-sid branch; changelogs-crawler: debug still missing changelogs for some pkgs, file #685814; rapt: ported to python-apt 0.8; software-center: work with the rnr-server people, ported to aptdaemon 0.40 api, compat fixes for maverick, refactor refresh_apps() (much cleaner now), various merges, fix unneeded applist-refresh issues, work on lp:~mvo/software-center/no-search-r
<mvo> esults-help (spelling suggestions etc), work on the reviews client; Update-manager: port to aptdaemon 0.40
<mvo> (done)
 * robbiew still reading
<robbiew> mvo: thnx
<robbiew> psurbhi is still out
<robbiew> jhunt: ?
<jhunt> Implemented the new debug and manual stanzas in Upstart. Currently
<jhunt> working on "override files" feature. Met up with Scott in London
<jhunt> yesterday and released upstart-0.6.7 "Return of the Mole".
<jhunt> Started to look at bug 688541. Today have been working on overrides and
<jhunt> then got distracted into looking at bug 683605 by apw. I've now got a
<jhunt> fix, but will require someone to review this as the fix is only slightly
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 688541 in mysql-5.1 (Ubuntu) "race condition on shutdown (leads to corrupted fs)" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/688541
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 683605 in util-linux (Ubuntu) "kernel hibernate signature has changed from S1SUSPEND to LINHIB0001" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/683605
<jhunt> less dangerous than not fixing the problem! :-)
<cjwatson> note that busybox needs to be changed for that as well
<Keybuk> it turns out that the hardest part for jhunt of doing the upstart release was coming up with a name for it ;p
<ev> mmm Mole
<jhunt> cjwatson: 683605?
<cjwatson> yeah
<cjwatson> I added a bug task
<jhunt> I'll have to chat to you about that. I believe that libmagic1 should also be changed to recognize the new signature.
<cjwatson> probably much the same fix, will be obvious if you grep
<robbiew> Keybuk: lol
<robbiew> jhunt: fantastic...thanks!
<jhunt> I've got a highly dodgy postinst script for review :) It uses dd to to bad things :)
<jhunt> EOT
<robbiew> dd...not so fantastic :P
<robbiew> Keybuk: ?
<Keybuk> - done: lots more work on temporal events
<Keybuk> - done: added properties for start_on, stop_on and emits; these make  james' visualisation work item much easier and make doing bridges
<Keybuk>   rather fun
<Keybuk> - done: built on top of the previous, I wrote a socket activation
<Keybuk>   bridge for Upstart.  Still draft code at this point, but it works.
<Keybuk> - done: added chroot and user session support to Upstart, again a
<Keybuk>   draft patch since some behaviours (initctl list as a user) need
<Keybuk>   careful thought.
<Keybuk>   * but basically, "initctl list" in a chroot now goes "ooh, a chroot"
<Keybuk>     and parses $root/etc/init/*.conf into a new session
<Keybuk> - done: released upstart 0.6.7 upstream
 * jhunt things scott wrote that real-time :)
<jhunt> s/things/thinks
<jhunt>  s/things/thinks/
 * robbiew is excited about his background switching to windows on april fools day
<robbiew> :)
<robbiew> thnx Keybuk
<Keybuk> just don't put in "April 31st"
<mvo> user-session \o/
<robbiew> ev: ?
<ev> Platform Futures planning.  Finally got the installer testing stuff moved into the millbank datacenter and pretty much operational (should be working on every commit to ubiquity bzr).  Dumping as much as I can to the wiki. Trying to get to the bottom of why the installer window stops rendering at the timezone page.
<ev> Trying to work out how to smoke test the generated live filesystems so I don't have to go in the datacenter every time someone breaks the boot, but I think I'll ditch that as it'll be too much work to get a VM inserted into this.  Some small patches to ubiquity per OEM services' request.
<ev> TODO: Mail to sabdfl about Wubi plans. Getting pitti's gtk3 branch of usb-creator working, getting the grub2 usb-creator stuff finished.  Further untangling this oem spec for natty.  Getting individual ubiquity component testing working.
<ev> (done)
<robbiew> sweet...thnx ev
<robbiew> [TOPIC] Natty
<MootBot> New Topic:  Natty
<robbiew> I haven't been paying close enough attention to bugs...for any of my teams :/
<robbiew> but if folks have issues...speak now!
<barry> i'm running it in a vm that does not have 3d.  i can't figure out how to switch to classic that it keeps warning me about
<cjwatson> not really bugs, but I'm a bit worried about http://people.canonical.com/~platform/workitems/natty/canonical-foundations.html - we're still technically within the trend line, but we had a bit of a head start
 * robbiew looks
<cjwatson> we're certainly making progress, but do please try to kick the tyres on the work items list each day a bit
<Keybuk> isn't that technically all mvo's work items? :-)
<mvo> pfffffff
<cjwatson> some individuals have more impact on the graph than others, yes :)
<robbiew> lol
<doko> I'd like to see the python-defaults migration to -updates as soon as possible
 * mvo hides
<cjwatson> please debate that with pitti - I did look at the bug, but he's been very definitely on top of that bug so I don't want to jump in
<cjwatson> does that bug need an update-manager task, if it's going to need a specific package installed from -updates before upgrading from maverick to natty?
<mvo> I added one
<mvo> I think I will just patch pycompile when the upgrade starts
<mvo> this way I don't need to worry about enabling -updates if its missing etc
<doko> I didn't hear back from him, will raise the priority
<robbiew> okay....moving on
<robbiew> [TOPIC] AOB/GoodNews?
<MootBot> New Topic:  AOB/GoodNews?
<cjwatson> Rick's pulling me in to deal with a custom CD image job - Robbie, you may well know about it already.  I don't expect it will take very long, though, as we've been pretty brutal about the scope
<robbiew> ah yes
<robbiew> HR says everyone needs to have objectives in by this month, or no raise/bonus next year....they will send me a list of the "culprits"
<Keybuk> phew
<cjwatson> I honestly don't know whether I have or not - would appreciate it if you could let me know if I'm a culprit!
<Keybuk> no need for me to worry about objectives then
<jhunt> robbiew: I got access to allhands today so can now try adding some :)
<robbiew> jhunt: cool
<robbiew> cjwatson: ack
<robbiew> Keybuk: heh
<robbiew> okay...ending 30min early
<robbiew> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 10:29.
<barry> cjwatson: yeah, me too ;)
<robbiew> thnx all!
<ev> thanks!
<mvo> thanks
<jhunt> thanks
<highvoltage> good afternoon/evening
 * charlie-tca waves
<highvoltage> howdy charlie-tca
<highvoltage> Meeting page: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Edubuntu/Meetings/Agenda
<highvoltage> I was wondering, should we have a meeting on 22 and 29 December?
<highvoltage> next alpha is only in February and we don't really have much planned for the next two weeks
<alkisg> Hi all
<highvoltage> mgariepy, stgraber, mhall119, nixternal: (poke, btw)
 * alkisg thinks we can take a break for holidays..
<mhall119> o/
<highvoltage> I changed the next meeting time for 5 January 2011 then
<mhall119> ok
<highvoltage> if anyone feels strongly about it they can schedule a meeting in the meantime then
<mhall119> I'll just ping you when I need you
<highvoltage> we're always in #edubuntu anyway so it's not like we even really need meetings, it's just useful for reporting mostly I guess
<highvoltage> I updated our roadmap page a bit this morning: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Edubuntu/Devel/RoadMap
<highvoltage> just some minor changes since last time
<highvoltage> we also now have daily builds again, we had a broken package due to the python transition for about a week
<highvoltage> I tested today's daily build and it's actually quite good, except for LTSP being broken
<highvoltage> The iTalc link is now hidden on the live environment since it doesn't work anyway
<highvoltage> (at least not in live)
<highvoltage> some more good news,
<highvoltage> dinda and mhall119 are now finally edubuntu-members
<highvoltage> heh, and dinda was just in time to miss that
<highvoltage> hey dinda
<highvoltage> 14:09 < highvoltage> some more good news,
<highvoltage> 14:09 < highvoltage> dinda and mhall119 are now finally edubuntu-members
<highvoltage> mhall119 also applied for edubuntu-dev and became one just before this meeting, he's now an official edubuntu developer
<charlie-tca> Congratulations dinda and mhall119
<highvoltage> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/edubuntu-devel/2010-December/003666.html
<highvoltage> that's about it from me this week
<dinda> highvoltage: thanks!
<highvoltage> mhall119: would you like to update us on the launcher stuff?
<dinda> I saw the auto-notice from LP that I'd been added to the group
<highvoltage> dinda: and do you have anything from your side?
<dinda> highvoltage: nothing new here
<highvoltage> I'd like to talk about edubuntu-dev and how edubuntu-council members who are edubuntu-developers should really be members there, but we don't have everyone here atm so I'll just bring it up in #edubuntu or on the list again
<mhall119> sorry, had to step away for a minute
<mhall119> so, xdg-launcher 0.0.4 is, IMO, good enough for Qimo at this point
<mhall119> and daker is doing a lot of work, borrowing code from ADeskBar, to add even more improvements
<mhall119> so I can definitively say that it will be a part of Qimo 3
<highvoltage> cool
<mhall119> instead of separate qimo-session-gnome and qimo-session-xfce, I'm going to stick with just one package that will look for either /usr/bin/startxfce4 or /usr/bin/gnome-session and decide which to use
<stgraber> highvoltage: I'm fine with not having any meeting during the holidays
<mhall119> since ~50% of the configs for qimo-session had to do with the launcher anyway
<mhall119> my TODO list is:
<mhall119> * re-name xdg-launcher to something non-xdg-branded (probably qimo-launcher)
<highvoltage> stgraber: would it be fine adding qimo-games, qimo-session, qimo-wallpaper and qimo-launcher to the edubuntu package set?
<mhall119> * update qimo-wallpaper and qimo-games to 3.0 (nothing major)
<mhall119> * make qimo-session work for either Xfce or Gnome
<mhall119> * make qimo packages for GDM and plymouth themes
<stgraber> highvoltage: I guess it'd be easier if we first seed them to have them in the dvd pool, then poke cjwatson to update the package set
<mhall119> oh, and qimo packages for ubiquity slides
<mhall119> then start building the CD from scratch (or ubuntu base squashfs) and see how much room I have
<highvoltage> mhall119: ok, we could seed them when they don't explicitly depend on xfce anymore
<mhall119> highvoltage: oh, hmmm, you know what, maybe I will need separate -gnome and -xfce packages, for the dependencies
<mhall119> unless I can do Depends: (set of gnome packages) | (set of xfce packages)
<mhall119> is that possible?
<stgraber> you can
<highvoltage> mhall119: that was exactly what stgraber and I just discussed :)
<mhall119> ok, I knew you can do packageA | packageB
<mhall119> was sure about groups of them
<mhall119> okay then, just one qimo-session backages with convoluted Depends
<mhall119> gah, my typing is terrible
<mhall119> hope that made some kind of sense
<highvoltage> you'll probably just use the gnome-session or xfce-session meta-packages instead
<mhall119> ok, xfce4-session has everything in Recommends, but I guess that's okay
<highvoltage> not sure how complicated those sets of packages need to be, but if you'd like to get a 2nd opinion or need some ideas feel free to poke me
<mhall119> ok
<highvoltage> recommends are installed by default anyway
<highvoltage> so it should be fine. recommended packages can be removed without the metapackage being removed
<highvoltage> but that should be fine
<highvoltage> (my typing/communication also sucks today :p)
<charlie-tca> xfce is modular, so without the recommends, a lot of things quit working
<mhall119> but if qimo-session depends on xfce4-session, and you apt-get install qimo-session, it will get all the Recommends
<mhall119> so that should be fine
<highvoltage> I doubt most users would go ahead and remove random xfce packages though.
<mhall119> does apt give preference to which comes first in a Depends: A | B
<mhall119> if you have neither installed
<mhall119> nevermind, we can take this back to #edubuntu, it's not part of the meeting
<highvoltage> well, we don't have much else happening at the meeting, but you're probably right we can take it back to #edubuntu
<highvoltage> anything else for the meeting?
<mhall119> so, long story short: Qimo 3 is coming along well, and should be ready for inclusion in Edubuntu soon
<mhall119> hopefully in time for alpha 2
<highvoltage> mhall119: are you going to make a qimo release on 11.04?
<mhall119> highvoltage: yes
<highvoltage> cool
<mhall119> or shortly after
<mhall119> as close to the *buntu release date as possible
<highvoltage> ok
<highvoltage> well, I guess that's it for this meeting then. back to #edubuntu!
<highvoltage> *GONG*
<akshatj> Would the meeting for Ubuntu Membership be held here?
<pleia2> yes
<akshatj> I can go to sleep then :D
<jelmer-n900> evening!
<barry> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 15:02. The chair is barry.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<poolie> hi all
<barry> hi folks and welcome to this week's udd stakeholder's meeting
<barry> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DistributedDevelopment/20101215
<barry> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DistributedDevelopment/20101215
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DistributedDevelopment/20101215
<barry> who's here today?
<jelmer-n900> me
 * slangasek waves
<barry> james_w: ?
<barry> thumper: ?
<james_w> hey!
<barry> ajmitch: ?
<thumper> I'm kinda here
<barry> thumper: how early in the morning is it for you? ;)
<thumper> barry: 10am
<barry> oh that's not too bad
<barry> let's start...
<barry> [TOPIC] action items
<MootBot> New Topic:  action items
<barry>   * ajmitch to come up with questions/topics for next meeting (re: REVU)
<barry>  
<barry> i don't know if ajmitch is around, so let's leave that one for now
<barry>   * poolie to send bzr rotation pitch to platform mailing list
<barry>  
<poolie> sorry, not done
<poolie> keep it
<barry> cool
<barry>   * barry & poolie to add work items to [[https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/other-foundations-n-distributed-development-review-and-planning|UDD blueprint]]
<barry>  
 * ajmitch is kind of here
<barry> i did add some work items from our last meeting, but could use poolie's review of it
<barry> ajmitch: hi.  are you ready to talk about REVU, or should we push that back to next time?
<poolie> i think they're plausible
<poolie> there are a tonne of others, but i think they're good for ~april
<ajmitch> I have some initial notes/comments about it
<barry> poolie: cool.  feel free to adjust, decompose, reassign, etc. as you will.  the screenscrapers will keep up
<barry> ajmitch: i'll put it on the agenda for later
<ajmitch> really rough list that I came up with to start a discussion at http://paste.ubuntu.com/544185/
<barry> ajmitch: cool. let's blow through the bugs and then talk about it
<ajmitch> ok
<barry> [TOPIC] bugs of interest
<MootBot> New Topic:  bugs of interest
<barry> are there any updates on the bugs at the agenda url above?  i know i have not had time to work on any of them :(
<poolie> some
<poolie> a fix for direct commits to stacked branches is underway
<poolie> we did some network performance fixes
<jelmer-n900> i fixed a bzr builder bug, not sure if it was on the list
<poolie> exarkun should fix the conch breakage on huge pulls by january
<jelmer-n900> and without browser atm
<poolie> oh, spiv i think fixed the tags thing
<poolie> good for you
<poolie> so, a decent bit of progress
<barry> yep, really fantastic
<poolie> perhaps we should re-fill that list when we next meet (i assume in january)
<barry> poolie: +1, and +1
<barry> i've done a ton of branches in the last two weeks and have noticed two things that kind of hit me often.  i'll describe them and perhaps you can tell me if bugs need to be filed
<barry> the first is that merge-upstream on maverick doesn't know about natty.  i always have to fire up my natty vm, do the merge-upstream, push the branch to lp, and then go back to mav (my main dev box), pull the branch and proceed from there
<poolie> ouch
<poolie> i think you should file a bug; james can close it if it's already fixed
<poolie> it sounds like at minimum a ui or doc gap
<barry> poolie: will do, thanks
<barry> the other thing i notice, and i'm not sure it's a bug, is that it's problematic to get the changelog entry right.  dch -i doesn't cut it for a few reasons:
<jelmer____> barry: Wasn't there somebody looking at doing a SRU to cope with that?
<barry> jelmer____: i dunno, but poolie or james_w might
<jelmer____> bug 668764
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 668764 in bzr-builddeb (Ubuntu Maverick) "Add Natty to the list of known distros" [Medium,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/668764
<james_w> yeah
<poolie> ah, that's always bugged me too
<jelmer____> apparently Pitti uploaded to maverick-proposed
<barry> ah, cool
<barry> thanks
<barry> so, dch:
<barry> * series always defaults to maverick instead of natty
<barry> * 1build1 -> 1ubuntu1
<james_w> I think there's a package that we can now use to answer these sorts of questions
<james_w> (which is the current target, what's available)
<barry> * formatting of LP: #XYZ is finicky
<barry> james_w: sorry, was that in response to my second issue?
<james_w> both really
<james_w> bzr-builddeb could use it so that I don't have to remember to add the new codename
<james_w> dch could use it so that it can know where to target by default
<james_w> (the maverick/natty issue)
<barry> gotcha
<barry> i did file bug 690230 on the XbuildY issue
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 690230 in devscripts (Ubuntu) "dch -i should change XbuildY to NubuntuM" [Wishlist,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/690230
<barry> james_w: do you think there are reasonable bugs i can file lurking in the second issue?
<james_w> barry, yes
<james_w> I think there is some disagreement on the maverick/natty one, but hey
<james_w> I'm not sure how to make the fomatting easier, but no reason we can't try
<barry> okay.  i'll try to formulate a couple of bug reports.  btw, should i be filing them on udd or bzr-builddeb?
<james_w> that sort of thing can go against udd
<barry> james_w: cool, thanks
<james_w> devscripts is where dch lives, so that would be better, but maybe add a "udd" task?
<barry> that's it for me, anybody else have feedback on bugs?
<barry> [TOPIC] REVU
<barry> ajmitch: you have the floor
<MootBot> New Topic:  REVU
<ajmitch> 10:09 < ajmitch> really rough list that I came up with to start a discussion at http://paste.ubuntu.com/544185/
 * ajmitch hasn't had much time to actually write up anything here
<ajmitch> but I was just wanting to hear peoples ideas of reviews of new packages
<ScottK> ajmitch: For me one of the killer features of REVU that things like PPAs lack is the ability to hold multiple versions of upstream tarballs with identical names, but different contents and diff them.
<ajmitch> right, I'm not sure how that can be done by comparing different revisions of an upstream branch & how we'd use that properly
<ScottK> The problem we run into is poorly constructed tarballs that have to be redone.  This is not rare.
<ajmitch> currently each upload to REVU is stored in a separate directory & diffs are generated between them
<ajmitch> Not rare, and is often done for legal reasons
<jelmer____> ajmitch: is the directory kept once the package is accepted, or is it destroyed (perhaps also for legal reasons?)?
<ajmitch> jelmer____: currently kept until someone removes it through the UI
<poolie> ... are we stuck?
<barry> ajmitch: maybe we can talk more about REVU at the next meeting?  i haven't used it enough to have any relevant comments
<ajmitch> barry: perhaps, if people want to
<barry> ajmitch: okay, thank you though for that list.  i'll add it to the summary
<barry> [TOPIC] next meeting
<MootBot> New Topic:  next meeting
<barry> so, probably in january
<barry> if we do the 5th, then the meeting after will be at the platform rally, which might be a good thing
<barry> any objections to meeting next on 5-jan-2011?
<poolie> right, and the bzr team (including jelmer) will be there
<barry> that'll be fantastic
<poolie> hm
<poolie> how many working days are there between now and the 5th?
<poolie> some
<poolie> and some people may hack over the holidays of course
<barry> 7 i think?
<barry> people do tend to disappear early, but yeah, holiday hacking is a great tradition :)
<poolie> barry, the platform sprint is the week of the 5th
<poolie> sorry, of the 10th
<poolie> ie the week after the 5th
<barry> d'oh!  you're right.  so, postpone next meeting until the 12th?
<poolie> wfm
<barry> me2
<barry> any objections?
<poolie> let's keep the same time of day
<barry> yep
<poolie> which would be 15:00 US/Central?
<barry> yes, but we'll be in US/Eastern, so it's 1600
<barry> oops, no
<barry> right 1500 US/Central
<barry> i forgot where dallas was :)
<barry> okay, then next meeting on the 12th, same time
<barry> [TOPIC] AOB
<MootBot> New Topic:  AOB
<barry> anybody have anything not on the agenda?
<poolie> US/Somewhere-southish
<barry> US/HopefullyWarm
<poolie> not from me
<barry> 5
<barry> 4
<barry> 3
<james_w> nope
<barry> 2
<barry> 1
<jelmer____> see y'all in Dallas :-)
<barry> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 15:43.
<poolie> :)
<james_w> thanks everyone
<barry> thanks everyone.  have a great holiday break
<poolie> ahead of schedule; i like that
<poolie> you too
<barry> \o/
<poolie> i'll be thinking of you on the beach :)
<barry> poolie: you are cruel :)
#ubuntu-meeting 2010-12-16
<NCommander> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 08:59. The chair is NCommander.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<NCommander> [link] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileTeam/Meeting/2010/20101216
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileTeam/Meeting/2010/20101216
<davidm> hello
<janimo> hello
 * rsalveti waves
<NCommander> GrueMaster is on his way
<NCommander> Ok
<NCommander> [topic] Action Item Review
<MootBot> New Topic:  Action Item Review
<NCommander> [topic] persia to handle namespace renaming (co)
<MootBot> New Topic:  persia to handle namespace renaming (co)
 * NCommander pokes persia to see if he's around
<NCommander> ok
<NCommander> no persia
<NCommander> Will skip his AIs
<NCommander> [topic] NCommander to fix workitem links
<MootBot> New Topic:  NCommander to fix workitem links
<NCommander> Fixed on the wiki
<NCommander> [topic] Standing Items
<MootBot> New Topic:  Standing Items
<NCommander> [link] http://people.canonical.com/~platform/workitems/natty/ubuntu-armel-natty-alpha-2.html
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://people.canonical.com/~platform/workitems/natty/ubuntu-armel-natty-alpha-2.html
<NCommander> [link] http://people.canonical.com/~platform/workitems/natty/ubuntu-armel.html
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://people.canonical.com/~platform/workitems/natty/ubuntu-armel.html
<NCommander> Burndown chart doesn't look very good
<rsalveti> yup
<NCommander> lot of these are ogra's so I don't really expect much until he returns in 2011
<rsalveti> will probably only get really better in January
<davidm> NCommander, my side is blocked until Jan too
<NCommander> Yeah, I'm blocked on my spec (had discussions with cjwatson on archdetect, and watching the d-boot discussion go on)
<NCommander> Right, so the burndown chart is going to look fugly until 2011 :-)
<janimo> the will suddenly plummet :)
<GrueMaster> Looks like it needs to get reset, as it starts low.
<NCommander> GrueMaster: only a 6 item difference, won't be huge. We can poke pitti if needbe though
<rsalveti> I'd prefer to see it fixed
<rsalveti> if possible
<NCommander> [action] NCommander to get trendline fixed
<MootBot> ACTION received:  NCommander to get trendline fixed
<NCommander> There
<NCommander> [link] http://qa.ubuntu.com/reports/team-assigned/canonical-arm-assigned-bug-tasks.html
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://qa.ubuntu.com/reports/team-assigned/canonical-arm-assigned-bug-tasks.html
<NCommander> No progress with mono on my end.
<rsalveti> bug 688765 is waiting the test feedback from GrueMaster
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 688765 in linux (Ubuntu) "Can't init uart3 (no clocks available) at Beagleboard-xM" [Undecided,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/688765
<rsalveti> then the only one I still need to work on is bug 664682, the others are all waiting to get fix released, basically
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 664682 in opengles-sgx-omap3 (Ubuntu) "debian/copyright lists an EULA, but the user is not asked to agree at install time" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/664682
<rsalveti> persia is handling lots of bugs
<rsalveti> and some are quite old already
<GrueMaster> And a lot of them are old, most are now unsupported.
<rsalveti> persia: can you check later on if you're really planning to work on them?
<rsalveti> if not, just remove yourself from the bug
<NCommander> [action] persia to remove himself from old assigned bugs
<MootBot> ACTION received:  persia to remove himself from old assigned bugs
<janimo> I see bug 462605 is over a year old, which supported boards use redboot ?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 462605 in redboot-tools (Ubuntu) "redboot-cmdline can not cope with slashes in cmdline" [Medium,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/462605
<GrueMaster> babbage
<NCommander> anyway, I'm going to move on
<NCommander> [topic] Kernel Status (cooloney)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Kernel Status (cooloney)
<rsalveti> he's not around, but the omap 4 kernel was updated for natty
<rsalveti> still with 35, but now with PM and some other fixes
<rsalveti> I'm currently working to get the new x-loader version at the repository
<rsalveti> and also waiting to the new u-boot version to get into the archive probably next week
<NCommander> yay
<rsalveti> we're kind of waiting linaro to make the u-boot release for us
<rsalveti> so once everything is updated, more kernel testing is needed
<rsalveti> ti will continue to work and improve this tree, and hopefully move to 37 on january/february
<rsalveti> that's most of it
<NCommander> [topic] QA Status (GrueMaster)
<MootBot> New Topic:  QA Status (GrueMaster)
<rsalveti> latest image is 20101214
<GrueMaster> I think the move to python 2.7 has broken some of the tools in the image.  Only seeing a failure with checkbox at the moment, but others may be affected.
<rsalveti> currently broken probably because we're still waiting some packages to build
<GrueMaster> Firefox is also crashing on startup.
<rsalveti> yeah, some new bugs are unfortunately expected :-)
<GrueMaster> rsalveti: That falls under image status.  :P
<rsalveti> GrueMaster: what is the last working image?
<rsalveti> at least able to install and get into the xsession
<GrueMaster> 20101214, as you pointed out.
<rsalveti> cool, I didn't test it yet
<GrueMaster> When there are images to test, I pull them and test them.  Otherwise I just do apt-get upgrade to wade through the pool churn.
 * NCommander moves on
<GrueMaster> At any rate, I've also been catching up with several older bugs that have been tagged with verification-needed that I had not received notification on.
<NCommander> or not
<GrueMaster> I'm done.
<NCommander> [topic] ARM Porting/FTBFS status (NCommander)
<MootBot> New Topic:  ARM Porting/FTBFS status (NCommander)
<NCommander> FTBFS list is better since Qt got fixed
<janimo> about two dozen haskell packages depend on ghc6 being built (which takes 32 hours and many times does not succeed)
<NCommander> Kubuntu devs want to work on backporting and enabling NEON runtime detection for some handwritten assembler. I'll be looking at this at the possibility of increasing performance, and there's been a desire to have a hwcaps NEON version
<NCommander> janimo: ghc6 is a frustatingly fragile package; I don't think its ever reliably built :-/
<rsalveti> NCommander: just fix qt upstream :-)
<janimo> NCommander: Laney is taking care of it, but it is not too easy on arm I suppose as some bugs manifest here only
<NCommander> rsalveti: thiago from Nokia is working on it
<NCommander> anyway, that's all I got on FTBFS
<NCommander> [topic] ARM Image Status (ogra, NCommander)
<MootBot> New Topic:  ARM Image Status (ogra, NCommander)
<NCommander> With ogra on VAC, I'm handling OMAP4 image maintence and such
<NCommander> so if something breaks, poke me
<rsalveti> well, latest one failed to build
<rsalveti> hehe
 * NCommander glares at rsalveti :-P
<NCommander> I'll look at it after the meeting, but probably just archive churn
<rsalveti> probably
<GrueMaster> Don't bother.  It's just pool churn.
<GrueMaster> Mono-runtime this time around.
<NCommander> ugh
<NCommander> thanks GrueMaster
<NCommander> [topic] Any Other Business
<MootBot> New Topic:  Any Other Business
<NCommander> going 1
<NCommander> going twice
<NCommander> going three times
<NCommander> Ok, quick meeting
<NCommander> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 09:26.
<rsalveti> ok, thanks all
 * charlie-tca waves
 * micahg waves
<charlie-tca> Hey, micahg
<beardygnome> hi charlie-tca
<beardygnome> i can only sa
<beardygnome> *stay a few minutes
<mr_pouit> \o
<charlie-tca> beardygnome: no problem, did you see the message about the docs review I sent?
<beardygnome> yes thanks
<charlie-tca> You are welcome
<beardygnome> can i leave a agenda point for tonight?
<charlie-tca> Let's get it started, I see all the important people made it.
<charlie-tca> sure, beardygnome
<charlie-tca> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 13:01. The chair is charlie-tca.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<beardygnome> i was wondering if it would help the docs review if the htmls were hosted somewhere?
<cody-somerville> Hi
<charlie-tca> hm, I don't think so, because that would add to the places they have to be updated.
<charlie-tca> hey, cody-somerville
<beardygnome> i'm planning to get them up on my website so I can review them over christmas when i'm not at home, so could make the url available
<beardygnome> obviously i can't promise to always have the very latest versions, but i'll be updating them frequently
<beardygnome> charlie-tca: ok, no worries
<charlie-tca> It scares me, because people will start using that as "the docs" reference.
<beardygnome> is it ok for me to have them hosted for review, or would you prefer me to have them on a usb stick?
<charlie-tca> yes, you can do that. We just have to make sure we aren't sending people there when they need docs, I think.
<charlie-tca> Okay?
<beardygnome> I'll put them at an obscure url and make sure it doesn't get out.
<charlie-tca> The meeting agenda is available at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Meetings and will be in the minutes.
<micahg> beardygnome: docs are public, you shouldn't have to worry about that
<charlie-tca> micahg: they are pre-release docs, not for public
<micahg> charlie-tca: yes, but they're hosted in a public repo on LP, right?
<charlie-tca> part of the documentation review
<charlie-tca> yes, but I would never tell someone to go there to read them
<charlie-tca> If they are being posted to review for errors, they should not be public, since they are not complete
<cody-somerville> micahg, I think the issue is that the LP repo is only the source whereas beardygnome is going to put up the generated docs for review. We wouldn't want google to pick up them up and start returning them in searches for Xubuntu docs :P
<beardygnome> cody-somerville: that's a good point.  i'll keep them offline and put them on an sd card / memory stick.
<micahg> ok, next topic :-/
<charlie-tca> thanks
<charlie-tca> [TOPIC] Old business - all
<MootBot> New Topic:  Old business - all
<beardygnome> anyways, i've got to leave now.  have a good christmas everyone and i'll see you all on dec 30th.
<charlie-tca> The only thing I show was put there as a reminder. We need to update xubuntu.org, and pleia2 was going to check into it.
<charlie-tca> pleia2: are you here/
<charlie-tca> ?
<pleia2> yep, it's on my list, I'll follow-up with you this weekend
<charlie-tca> Great! Thank you for that.
<charlie-tca> [TOPIC] Team updates -
<MootBot> New Topic:  Team updates -
<highvoltage> hey there charlie-tca
<charlie-tca> Packaging & Development - mr_pouit
<cody-somerville> pleia2, You'll want to poke me about that.
<pleia2> cody-somerville: oh ok, email alright?
<mr_pouit> Finished rebuilding all panel plugins against xfce4-panel 4.7.
<cody-somerville> pleia2, Yup.
<mr_pouit> I'm working on the exo-0.3 -> exo-1 port for a few programs
<mr_pouit> (almost done)
<charlie-tca> Great!
<charlie-tca> We had a user in #xubuntu today that rebuilt places-plugin on his own system in natty and it worked
<charlie-tca> Is there any hope for the weather bug?
<mr_pouit> no, you can't mount anything
<mr_pouit> because exo-mount/umount/eject binaries aren't there anymore
<charlie-tca> ooops
<mr_pouit> but yeah, the other plugin features will work ;)
<charlie-tca> Anything else ?
<mr_pouit> nope
<micahg> doko fixed the powerpc FTBFS for libxfce4ui, so the powerpc stack should be buildable soon
<charlie-tca> thank you, mr_pouit.
<mr_pouit> charlie-tca: what's the issue with the weather plugin?
<charlie-tca> micahg: Great! Are you going to try and follow it?
<mr_pouit> micahg: ah cool
<charlie-tca> mr_pouit: it doesn't work at all in natty, Xfce is aware of it
<micahg> charlie-tca: yep, I'll try to make sure the deps get built over the weekend
<charlie-tca> Thank you, micahg
<charlie-tca> mr_pouit: I don't know all the stuff, but the Xfce devs are working that one.
<mr_pouit> charlie-tca: ah yeah, invalid api key or something
<mr_pouit> micahg: ok, I'll forward upstream
<micahg> mr_pouit: cool, thanks
<charlie-tca> [TOPIC] Bug Triage & Testing
<MootBot> New Topic:  Bug Triage & Testing
<charlie-tca> We had a quiet week. We do have a few users running Natty now.
<charlie-tca> Mostly, the comments are that Xfce4.8pre is great.
<charlie-tca> Anybody get stuck with the sudo bug yesterday or today?
<charlie-tca> Good. Let's keep going then.
<charlie-tca> [TOPIC] Website & Marketing
<MootBot> New Topic:  Website & Marketing
<micahg> wait
<charlie-tca> go ahead, micahg
<micahg> I have something for triage, but related to 10.04.2
<micahg> so I can go now or later
<charlie-tca> May as well bring it in now
<micahg> I would like to suggest any bugs that should be fixed for 10.04.2 be milestoned so that they can be worked on
<micahg> if that's not already happening
<micahg> xubuntu specific
<charlie-tca> Very good point.
<charlie-tca> I will review my bug lists this week and see what there is. I can't recall any high or critical ones other than docs,t hough
<charlie-tca> As for the website, pleia2 and cody-somerville will get together and make it happen for Natty
<charlie-tca> We need someone that can do marketing...
<charlie-tca> If someone shows interest, guide them to #xubuntu-devel and let's try to get something going
<charlie-tca> Anything else on website or marketing?
<charlie-tca> [TOPIC] Artwork
<MootBot> New Topic:  Artwork
<charlie-tca> No new discussions on it. If you have tried out the greybird theme, please give feedback to ochosi in #xubuntu-devel or #shimmer
<charlie-tca> I think it is a good theme, myself.
<charlie-tca> but, I am biased. I can see everything in it!
<charlie-tca> [TOPIC] Documentation
<MootBot> New Topic:  Documentation
<charlie-tca> I do not see the docs people today, but we need to review the Natty docs. I posted an email to xubuntu-devel for that.
<charlie-tca> should I forward the procedures to Xubuntu users ML?
<cody-somerville> hmmm
<cody-somerville> Up to you
<cody-somerville> not really intended for that though
<charlie-tca> That's why I asked. My thinking goes wrong somedays.
<charlie-tca> We do need to let Book_Em_Dano know we appreciate his efforts. Let's try to get more than one pair of eyes on that.
<charlie-tca> [TOPIC] Announcements - Project Lead
<MootBot> New Topic:  Announcements - Project Lead
<charlie-tca> We no longer produce the PS3 images for Natty
<charlie-tca> Thunderbird 3.1.7 is out.
<charlie-tca> There is no meeting next week, 2010-12-23, because of the holidays
<charlie-tca> anything else we should let everyone know?
<charlie-tca> We will tackle the governance again next year...
<charlie-tca> [TOPIC] Any Other Business - all/anyone
<MootBot> New Topic:  Any Other Business - all/anyone
<micahg> Add a topic for the next 2 months for 10.04.2
<charlie-tca> I want to remind everyone that we do follow the IRC guidelines at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IRC/Guidelines in our channels.
<charlie-tca> Got it, micahg. I will add it
<micahg> I have an agenda item on the LTS meeting for Jan 3 to discuss the timeline
<micahg> charlie-tca: thanks
<micahg> charlie-tca: I can own that if you want
<charlie-tca> Great!
 * micahg is afraid of what just happened
<charlie-tca> [ACTION] micahg to follow up on the 10.04.2 update
<MootBot> ACTION received:  micahg to follow up on the 10.04.2 update
<micahg> I'm guessing we'll have about a month to get any updates in
<charlie-tca> One thing I see happening is we are quick to tell users to google their issues. I do it too.
<charlie-tca> By those guidelines, we google
<charlie-tca> We give them all the help we can, including exact references to look at. I will stop telling them to google.
<charlie-tca> anyone else have anything?
<charlie-tca> Then we will see everybody in two weeks.
<charlie-tca> Thanks for coming to the meeting.
<pleia2> thanks charlie-tca
<charlie-tca> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 13:37.
<UndiFineD> great timing
<charlie-tca> I will post the minutes, UndiFineD
<skaet_d> test from droid
<charlie-tca> skaet: worked
<skaet> thanks charlie-tca   :)
<charlie-tca> You are welcome
#ubuntu-meeting 2010-12-17
<akshatj> jderose, hey, good luck
<jderose> akshatj: thanks :)
 * akshatj woke up in the morning after a very long time
<jderose> akshatj: meaning you slept a long time?
<greg-g> or the first time in a long time you woke up while it was still morning? :)
<akshatj> ^
<greg-g> alright, is everyone about ready for the meeting to start?
<jderose> yup
<fagan> disco
<doctormo> hello
 * dinda is here
 * skaet_d waves
<greg-g> we have one board member who is on his way shortly, but we can probably get started on time and he'll catch up on votes.
<fagan> hello
 * beuno waves
 * doctormo might be a bit drunk after a single mai-thai on an empty stomach.
<greg-g> doctormo: oh mai
<fagan> its ok doctormo
<fagan> :)
<beuno> no sign of dhillonv10?
<greg-g> I was just going to bring up his wiki page/LP page to look for an alternate IRC name, but they're being slow for me
<greg-g> well, I'll get it started now that it is time, and we'll come back if he shows up
<greg-g> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 19:01. The chair is greg-g.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<greg-g> Hello and welcome to the Ubuntu Membership Review Board for the Americas meeting for December. The wiki page for the Review Board is available here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Membership/RegionalBoards/Americas
<greg-g> We will attempt to get through all of the applicants that have added themselves to that list before today's meeting. If we are unable to make it through the entire list due to time constraints, then at the next meeting we will pick up where we left off.
<greg-g> The format for the meeting is as follows: We will go through the list of applicants one by one, by date of application (FIFO).
<greg-g> Each applicant should introduce themselves (1-5 sentences) and provide links to their Ubuntu Wiki page. After the introduction the members of the Membership Review Board will review the pages and, if needed, ask the applicant further questions.
<greg-g> During this time it is encouraged for other members of the community to show their support for the applicant. Do not be alarmed if the members of the Membership Review Board are quiet during this time; they are most likely reading wiki/launchpad/forum/other pages and deciding how they are going to vote.
<greg-g> When the board is ready to vote, they will publicly vote in the channel with either +1, 0, or -1 (for membership, abstain, and against membership, respectively). If the sum of those numbers is positive, then the applicant is now an official Ubuntu member! (feel free congratulate them!)
<greg-g> Now, with any further ado, lets get started with the first applicant...
<greg-g> [TOPIC] jderose
<MootBot> New Topic:  jderose
<greg-g> jderose: go ahead, please, if you don't mind, since Vikram isn't here
<jderose> greg-g: just introduce myself then?
<greg-g> yep
<jderose> okay, name is Jason DeRose. started using Debian around 2000, switched to Ubuntu at its 3rd release or so
<greg-g> and if anyone else has anything to add about jderose, please feel free :)
<jderose> i've had varrying levels of involvement with ubuntu at times when my day job kept me too busy, but i've always stayed somewhat involved
<akshatj> jderose is Python tutor of akshatj ;)
<greg-g> jderose: cool, what types of things were you involved with?
<greg-g> akshatj: thanks :) It sounds like you got a good tutor, from the projects he's working on
<jderose> greg-g: always try to file lots of high quality bugs, and i was an early bzr + launchpad user
<greg-g> nice
<jderose> have advocated its use to many, have got many started with bzr
<fagan> jderose is doing some great work on novacut too
<doctormo> jderose knows what creative commons is and supports copyleft/open source style licenses in the creative world.
<pleia2> great :)
<nhandler> jderose: I see you idle in #ubuntu-us-co. Are you active with the LoCo?
<greg-g> you know the right phrases to pull my strings, don't you, doctormo ? ;)
<jderose> greg-g: yeah, and now i'm all about making ubuntu the best platform for pro video
<jderose> nhandler: not active yet, just getting to know people... went to 10.10 release party that loco put on... Steve Coast just happen to be there :)
<greg-g> jderose: yeah, I've been impressed with the novacut project, even if my blog post didn't get you full funding on KS ;)
<fagan> novacut is very exciting and jderose went to the last UDS to get the Ubuntu community involved
<jderose> greg-g: ah, greg, hi... didn't know your irc name :)
<pleia2> jderose: I was at a school last night and was asked about high performance video editing in linux, optimistic about the future?
<akshatj> jderose, I found Novacut by greg-g's blog post
<jderose> pleia2: well, i'm optismistic about future, but i'm biased :)
<skaet_d> hi, my name is Kate Stewart.   I started out helping robbiew with 10.10, and working on natty right now
<nhandler> jderose: I also saw you helped to teach the basics of packaging to someone. Have you done any patching/packaging type work in Ubuntu?
<greg-g> jderose: yeah, I keep my nicks as simple as possible ;)
<nhandler> skaet_d: We'll get to you in a few minutes
<doctormo> jderose: also did lots of work at UDS by doing really good interviews.
 * skaet_d is on an interface that sucks and appoligises.
<jderose> pleia2: i think Ubuntu/Linux is well positioned for video because the biggest problems pro video faces is really storage and scalability... problems we're well equiped to handle as you know, linux runs the internet and all :)
<pleia2> jderose: indeed! good to hear
<jderose> greg-g: anyway, did i cover enough, anything specific you want me to answer?
<greg-g> I think nhandler had a question
<nhandler> jderose: Can you answer my last question?
<nhandler> 1292548105 19:08:25 < nhandler> jderose: I also saw you helped to teach the basics of packaging to someone. Have you done any patching/packaging type work in Ubuntu?
<jderose> nhandler: so i've always packaged my own projects and published in PPA... so i'm quite comfortable packaging Python apps...
<akshatj> nhandler, jderose also helped manish package zeitgeist-sharp
<jderose> nhandler: but i haven't done much in official packaging yet, although i'm excited to
<nhandler> jderose: I would definitely look into that if you already know about packaging. They can always use more help.
<jderose> nhandler: i'm working on getting python-skein into ubuntu, have been talking to upstream author
<greg-g> cool
<greg-g> well, i think we're ready to vote....
<nhandler> Yep
<greg-g> [VOTE]
<MootBot> Please vote on: .
<MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
<MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
<greg-g> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from greg-g. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
<pleia2> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from pleia2. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2
<beuno> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from beuno. 3 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 3
<nhandler> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from nhandler. 4 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 4
<akshatj> +1
<dinda> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from akshatj. 5 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 5
<MootBot> +1 received from dinda. 6 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 6
<greg-g> [ENDVOTE]
<MootBot> Final result is 6 for, 0 against. 0 abstained. Total: 6
<fagan> yay jderose congrats welcome to the crew
<pleia2> board members only voting, please
<JamesMR> Congrats jderose!
<nhandler> Congratulations jderose
<pleia2> congrats and welcome jderose :)
<jderose> yippee! thank you!
<greg-g> welcome aboard, jderose !
<greg-g> alrighty, lets move on to....
<greg-g> [TOPIC] skaet_d
<MootBot> New Topic:  skaet_d
<skaet_d> hi
<greg-g> skaet_d: please introduce yourself :)
<skaet_d> sorry about the early post
<greg-g> no problem
<skaet_d> ive come from an embedded linux backgound
<pleia2> skaet_d: I was at the linux collaboration summit too, shame we missed each other
<skaet_d> am learning ubuntu and doing my besat to ramp and help out with the releases now.
<greg-g> skaet_d: as you came from an embedded linux background, does that mean you were a developer or something else?
 * nhandler would also like to thank skaet_d for adding details of her contributions to her wiki page :)
<skaet_d> i managed FSL powerpc contribs for last 10 yrs
<beuno> skaet_d, so, peeking at your launchpad page, you've created an account only back in August
<beuno> skaet_d, what's prompting you to apply for membership?
<skaet_d> pleia2, sorry we missed each other too.
<skaet_d> bueno since im doing the release it seemed logical to be a member :)
<nhandler> skaet_d: Have you done any LoCo work?
 * fagan remembers skaet_d did some great work last cycle doing the release work 
<skaet_d> bueno, yup only joined in  Aug.  Before that I managed LTIB distrp
 * skaet_d thanks fagan
<beuno> skaet_d, do you feel the Ubuntu community is different from others?
<skaet_d> nhandler no, attended event in london but thats a part of community im learning about
<skaet_d> bueno, yes very different.  am enjoying it
<skaet_d> embedded was fragmented
<beuno> skaet_d, so what's different about it?
<skaet_d> not as much  collaboration.
<greg-g> in the embedded field, interesting
<greg-g> possible due to the heavier influence of corporations than individuals, I'd guess
<skaet_d> yup
<skaet_d> hardware access played a role
<skaet_d> no equivalent of code of conduct either....
<greg-g> we do love our CoC here
<beuno> skaet_d, so, you've been doing an awesome job as release manager
<beuno> pumping in lots of energy!
<beuno> thank you for doing that
<skaet_d> i like the culture it creates
<beuno> skaet_d, I do feel, though, it's a bit too early
<skaet_d> bueno,thanks!!!
<beuno> one of the requirements is a sustained contribution
<beuno> and while you've done that in these 4 months, very well so
<beuno> it feels like spending a bit more time getting involved in more areas, absorbing more of the community
<beuno> would put you in smooth position to fly through this process
<beuno> how wouuld you feel of re-applying in a couple of months?
<skaet_d> hmm
<beuno> I think we all agree that you're doing great, but feel a few more months under your belt would nail it
<greg-g> yes, the private channel was in agreement that your contributions are looking splendid, but we've had to come up with a set definition of "sustained contributions" for other applicants and 6 months was what was decided.
<skaet_d> would be nice to be able to release from Ubuntu  id... but will live with what is decided
<greg-g> I understand, totally, but this is, I believe, the most fair thing for everyone who has applied under the same rules of "sustained contribution"
<nhandler> skaet_d: I don't think most people will care. And if you keep up the great work, you very well might be an Ubuntu Member by the 11.04 release :)
 * greg-g agrees
<beuno> skaet_d, I want to stress that this in no way is a reflection on your work or contributions, it's just time is a hard thing to bend  :)
<fagan> its a shame but im sure it will only be a matter of time, I really liked all the fresh energy that skaet_d put into the job :)
<skaet_d> i just applied now because jono and robbiew s
<skaet_d> suggested it
<greg-g> I understand, and I think it should be made clear to managers at Canonical that the membership boards are bound by a "sustained contribution" criteria :/
<doctormo> hey jcastro
<jderose> i'm impressed that even canonical employees must go through same process... but obviously 6 month limit needs to be more clearly communicated to new hires :)
<greg-g> is Vikram here yet?
<skaet_d> yup
<dinda> skaet_d: it never hurts to apply but most folks wait until they feel they are ready and have shown good community contributions
<greg-g> alright, well, thanks everyone for coming to this meeting and congrats to jderose !
<greg-g> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 19:44.
<greg-g> skaet_d: I'm serious about you re-applying sometime this cycle
<fagan> congrats jderose
<jderose> greg-g: thanks again! :)
<jderose> thanks fagan, thanks for endorsement :)
<skaet_d> thanks greg-g
<fagan> np jderose any time
<fagan> later guys and gals
<jderose> greg-g: so what do i need to do now, if anything, as far as my membership?
<jderose> hi dnielsen_!
<greg-g> jderose: I just added you to the LP team, which means you can now add yourself to the planet (there's a wiki page on that somewhere)
<pleia2> jderose: your @ubuntu.com address will become active in a couple of days (there is a script that generates them every few days)
<jderose> greg-g: fagan was telling me that i should request a irc cloak also?
<greg-g> and if you want an "ubuntu/member/jderose" cloak on IRC, there's a way of getting that (another wiki page)
<jderose> okay, wiki pages it is then :)
<greg-g> yeah, not sure were the instructions are right now, I actually have to run, though. I'm sure google knows :)
<jderose> greg-g: okay, thanks! later!
<nhandler> jsalisbury: Just go and ask in #ubuntu-irc (make sure your IRC nick is on your LP page)
<jsalisbury> nhandler, huh?
<nhandler> jsalisbury: Tab fail, sorry
<jsalisbury> nhandler, :-)
<robbiew> wow...so you all blocked skaet because she hasn't been involved for 6mo....KNOWING in 2 more months she's practically automatic....seriously people...I'm all for not automatically approving Canonical employees, but she's the damn release manager!  I quote from the Ubuntu wiki on membership, "While there is no precise period that we look for, it is rare for applications to be accepted from people contributing for less
<czajkowski> hmmmm
<i5noc^3> hmm
<i5noc^3> so
<i5noc^3> the next meeting is the 21st?
<bazhang> check the fridge
<i5noc^3> interesting
<i5noc^3> yeah
<i5noc^3> i think this wont do it
<i5noc^3> Well, for the record, i've come to a decision
<bazhang> ?
<i5noc^3> Gonna go ahead and disrupt the distro
<i5noc^3> needs to die, i cant do that much but i can make life a living fucking hell
<i5noc^3> so im' out later o/
<bazhang> i5noc^3, watch the language
 * skaet waves
<Riddell> hi
 * marjo waves
<zul> hi
 * joshuahoover waves
<skaet> thanks!   looks like worth starting,  sorry about my connection problems.
<cjwatson> hi
 * rsalveti waves
 * skaet tango-ing with murphy a bit today...
<Daviey> o/
<skaet> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 10:02. The chair is skaet.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<seb128> hey
<jdstrand> hi
<skaet> hi all,  welcome to the last release team meeting of the year :)
<skaet> Reminder:   please use ".." on separate line when you've finished typing.    If someone wants to comment on the last point, please "o/", so we know to wait.
<skaet> [Topic] update on action items - skaet
<MootBot> New Topic:  update on action items - skaet
<skaet> Tutorial on linker is in draft mode
<skaet> Still gathering data on the RC vs. beta2 side - not forgotten :)
<skaet> beyond that, anyone else have any updates to the action items from the last meetings?
<skaet> ..
<skaet> heh,  ok, not seeing any hands
<skaet> so on to the round table.  :)
<skaet> [Topic] QA team update - marjo
<MootBot> New Topic:  QA team update - marjo
<marjo> # Alpha 2 Work Items
<marjo> http://people.canonical.com/~platform/workitems/natty/canonical-platform-qa-natty-alpha-2.html
<marjo>  * QA Efforts for UEC - Natty
<marjo>  UEC testing blocked due to https://launchpad.net/bugs/684304 smb's patch confirmed to fix problem.
<marjo>  * BugSquad Documentation Review
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://people.canonical.com/~platform/workitems/natty/canonical-platform-qa-natty-alpha-2.html
<marjo>  pvillavi on track
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 684304 in linux (Ubuntu Natty) "cciss module does not identify resources" [High,New]
<marjo>  * Bugsquad Roadmap
<marjo>  bdmurray on track
<marjo>  * Handling non-English bugs
<marjo>  100% complete
<marjo>  * hggdh in progress
<marjo> hggdh will continue to work w/ kernel team on the blocking bug
<marjo> # QA Dashboard
<marjo>  http://reports.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/qadashboard/qadashboard.html
<marjo> Note compiz & unity in top 5 packages list
<marjo> dbarth: ^^^
<marjo> # Desktop Automated Testing Summary
<marjo> http://reports.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/desktop-testing/natty/summary.html
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://reports.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/desktop-testing/natty/summary.html
<marjo> please note new summary format & please give us feedback on its usefulness and format
<marjo> thanks to jibel for the beautiful formatting & content (of course)
<marjo> ..
<skaet> Thanks Marjo.   will hggdh be working next week on the blocking bug, or are we going to go on hold until the new year?
<hggdh> I can, if needed (won't be going anywhere, and this is a real blocker
<marjo> hggdh has already confirmed the proposed fix works but will need official patch soon
<marjo> hggdh: thx for your commitment!
<skaet> thanks hggdh!
<skaet> any other questions?
<marjo> skaet: that's it from us
<skaet> Thanks marjo, hggdh.  :)
<skaet> [Topic] Hardware Certification team update - ara
<MootBot> New Topic:  Hardware Certification team update - ara
 * skaet looks around and realizes she isn't seeing ara
<skaet> victorp, you around?
<skaet> hmm...
<skaet> ok, lets see if one of them show up later...
<marjo> skaet: just curious, what did you mean by needing update on boot metrics?
<marjo> skaet: i'm getting current results from here: http://people.canonical.com/~ameetp/bootchart-weekly-summary.html
<skaet> marjo, will double check the link - but I wasn't seeing data updated recently, with new natty.
<marjo> skaet: i'll follow up w/ victorp
<skaet> thanks.
<skaet> moving on...
<skaet> [Topic] Security team update - jdstrand
<MootBot> New Topic:  Security team update - jdstrand
<jdstrand> hi
<jdstrand> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/ReleaseStatus/Natty
<skaet> hi :)
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/ReleaseStatus/Natty
<jdstrand> [LINK] http://people.canonical.com/~platform/workitems/natty/canonical-security.html
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://people.canonical.com/~platform/workitems/natty/canonical-security.html
<victorp> skaet - i am back
<jdstrand> Not a lot to report again as we have again been focusing on non-natty duties this week. We have one open release-targeted/milestoned bug for natty: bug #690040. kees is working on the best way to do this with upstart and apparmor and will coordinate with pitti when the time is right. We have no pending features for alpha-2.
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 690040 in cups (Ubuntu Natty) "no longer confined by AppArmor" [Undecided,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/690040
<skaet> victorp, ack - we'll come back to you after jdstrand then.  :)
<jdstrand> ..
<skaet> Thanks jdstrand.  :)
<jdstrand> sure
<jdstrand> :)
<skaet> any questions?
<skaet> ok, lets go back victorp then.  :)
<victorp> ok
<victorp> how can I help?
<victorp> in terms of Natty - no weekly test this week due to SRU testing
<victorp> we will be doing weekly testing next week
<victorp> and I will ping you the results (as next week fri is 24th)
<skaet> cool.   thanks!    will that include boot tests for natty?
<victorp> into the next year we are aiming for weekly testing that does run every week , ehem
 * skaet :)
<victorp> need to confirm that - I thought the get capture automatically with the weekly testing , but I will double check with the engineers
<skaet> thanks - let me know.
<skaet> any one have questions for victorp?
<skaet> ok, will move on.
<skaet> [Topic] Kernel team update - apw
<MootBot> New Topic:  Kernel team update - apw
<apw> o/
<skaet> :)
<apw> Overall status is reported at the first link below.  Burn down for the release milestone is at the second link below.  Burndown for the cycle is at the third link:
<apw> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/ReleaseStatus/Natty
<apw> [LINK] http://people.canonical.com/~platform/workitems/natty/canonical-kernel-team-natty-alpha-2.html
<apw> [LINK] http://people.canonical.com/~platform/workitems/natty/canonical-kernel-team.svg
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/ReleaseStatus/Natty
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://people.canonical.com/~platform/workitems/natty/canonical-kernel-team-natty-alpha-2.html
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://people.canonical.com/~platform/workitems/natty/canonical-kernel-team.svg
<apw> We are progressing on our natty-alpha-2 items, but as a number of smaller natty-alpha-1 items bled over we are somewhat over (but returning towards) the line currently.  The remaining pushed out items are listed with background on the overall status above (first link).  Overall burndown we are well below the line, so we should be able to catch up.
<apw> Of the bugs called out on the agenda: #542660 requires more testing and is not yet forthcoming; #566437 looks to only affect a limited number of upgrades from karmic, investigation continues; #600453 looks likely a gfxpayload=keep issue, testing requested; #681866 is likely a _boot_ issue too and testing with gfxpayload=keep requested; #682617 looks to be a pulseaudio/alsa configuration issue, and awaits testing; #684304 looks to be a device discovery
<apw>  issue and we may have identified the patch required to resolve this; and #630748 requires a firmware fix from Intel which is not yet available.
<apw> The main distro kernel is now rebased forward to mainline v2.6.37-rc6 and published.  The kernel carries further fixes for the NX issues we have been seeing as well as an ext4 corruption fix (which triggers under very high load).  All of the Ubuntu drivers are finally re-enabled in this upload.
<apw> ..
<skaet> thanks apw.  :)
<apw> np :)
<skaet> good to know you'll be able to catch up.   The overall feature burndowns are starting to look a bit concerning.
<skaet> will be starting to ask more questions about them in january :P
<apw> skaet, yep, we are mostly holding over small items which are not a large amount of work, or non-release critical items like docuentation
<apw> skaet, so things are better than they look in reality
<apw> ..
<skaet> good to know.
<skaet> in terms of the blocker,  will someone be working it next week?
<apw> skaet, which is the blocker ?
<skaet> per marjo,  684304
<apw> bug #684304
<marjo> https://launchpad.net/bugs/684304
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 684304 in linux (Ubuntu Natty) "cciss module does not identify resources" [High,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/684304
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 684304 in linux (Ubuntu Natty) "cciss module does not identify resources" [High,New]
<marjo> apw: ^^^
<apw> skaet, ah ok, yes i am aware of that one, we have requested further testing there, there is a likely cause identified
<marjo> apw: hggdh is working w/ smb on it
<apw> skaet, and i am in next week, so if its a blocker, then hggdh needs to talk to me instead ... smb has briefed me, and i have put further test kernels in the bug
<apw> ..
<hggdh> apw: I updated the bug with the results of your kernel
<apw> hggdh, awsome, will check
<skaet> thanks apw, hggdh.  :)
<tgardner> skaet, apw and myself are the only 2 kernel team members that will be around next week
<marjo> apw: thx!
 * skaet glad to know that tgardner and apw will be around.
<skaet> any other questions for apw?
 * tgardner may bug out for a ski day :)
<skaet> Thanks apw!
<skaet> [Topic] Foundations team update - cjwatson
<MootBot> New Topic:  Foundations team update - cjwatson
<cjwatson> http://people.canonical.com/~platform/workitems/natty/canonical-foundations.html - still below the trend line but becoming a bit more of a fight to stay that way, mostly due to late work items
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://people.canonical.com/~platform/workitems/natty/canonical-foundations.html - still below the trend line but becoming a bit more of a fight to stay that way, mostly due to late work items
<cjwatson> Matthias asked me to pass on this Python update:
<cjwatson> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/FoundationsTeam/ReleaseStatus/Natty - 2 out of 6 alpha-2 milestoned bugs fixed today, still more work needed
<cjwatson> <doko> python2.7: the archive should be in a state where it is upgradable without removing any packages (except for a handful).
<cjwatson> <doko> people upgrading from maverick should first upgrade to -updates
<cjwatson> <doko> people upgrading from early natty should be aware of https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/python2.7/+bug/689306
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 689306 in python2.7 (Ubuntu) "package python2.7-minimal 2.7.1-1ubuntu1 failed to install/upgrade: ErrorMessage: subprocess installed post-installation script returned error exit status 3" [Medium,Confirmed]
<cjwatson> <doko> I plan to send a followup on the python upgrade this weekend
<cjwatson> <doko> outstanding packages are: ethos, gapti, python-drizzle, python-hildon (removal request filed), xen-3.3
<cjwatson> <doko> the next step would be looking at packages which only depend on python2.6/libpython2.6 and address these
<cjwatson> <doko> after that, we could try to remove 2.6, or delay that for the sprint
<cjwatson> Other feature news this week:
<cjwatson>  - GRUB should now be picking a better resolution and setting a background colour that matches plymouth; blacklist infrastructure is waiting in NEW; text-free boot should now be well on its way
<cjwatson>  - debconf ported to GtkAssistant, getting rid of libgnome2-perl (thanks janimo and pitti)
<cjwatson>  - component-mismatches looking much cleaner now than last week
<cjwatson>  - new upstart release: manual stanza, debug stanza, new properties to support bridges and visualisation, new signals to support plymouth integration
<cjwatson>   - on their way: socket activation (draft code), chroot and user sessions (draft code), override files (WIP)
<cjwatson> ..
<skaet> cjwatson, re: workitems, thanks.   do we need to start to look at moving some to alpha3?
<cjwatson> that's the cycle-wide graph
<skaet> ack
<cjwatson> we may need to start looking at deferring some, but would prefer to do that at the sprint
<skaet> sounds reasonable.
<skaet> what's coverage going to be like over the next 2 weeks from the foundations team?
<cjwatson> I'm afraid we've not been doing very strict subcycle tracking this time round
<robbiew> cjwatson: I blame your manager :/
<skaet> lol
<skaet> robbiew,  who on foundations team will be around next week?
<cjwatson> I was just looking up the holiday calendar
<skaet> ahh,  sorry
<cjwatson> ow, it's even less readable since the reskinning
<robbiew> yeah
<robbiew> let's move on, and I'll send out an email
<skaet> okie.
<robbiew> to ubuntu-devel/release
<skaet> [Topic] Server team update - zul
<MootBot> New Topic:  Server team update - zul
<cjwatson> looks like Keybuk, doko, jhunt, probably a few others
<zul> hi
<cjwatson> I'll be around until Tue
<zul> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/ReleaseStatus/Natty
<zul> * Not much to report, We are currently progressing well on
<zul>   our natty-alpha-2 items, good progress have been made on
<zul>   the install-service spec.
<zul> * With respect to the axis2c bug, it was not looked at this week
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/ReleaseStatus/Natty
<zul>   but it remains on our radar.
<zul> * xen-tools will be looked at today as well by me.
<zul> * congrats on skaet getting her ubuntu membership.
<zul> ..
<skaet> thanks for the good wishes zul, but didn't get it I'm afraid.    next time, I hope.
<zul> oh that sucks :)
<robbiew> grrrrr
<skaet> no worries.   patience is something I'm pretty good at :)
<skaet> thanks for the update from the server side.
<skaet> any questions for zul?
<skaet> (and thanks to cjwatson for the update about the foundations team for next week)
<skaet> zul, who's going to be around next week from your team?
<Daviey> In regards to the axis2c, i really hoped we could get some help from doko - but i can see he's been busy with other things.
<zul> skaet: hmm....good question, robbiew?
<Daviey> skaet: Will the meeting be happening on the 24th?
<skaet> Daviey, thanks for the update.   Was wondering a bit about it.   Will wait until the python backlog clears out before asking again then.  ;)
<Daviey> sounds fair :)
<apw> skaet, perhaps move it up a day as many will travel on the 24th i suspect
<skaet> Daviey, nope.   this will be last one of the year.
<zul> skaet: im not sure but robbiew could maybe anser
<skaet> apw,  I don't think we'll have quorum, even then.
<apw> skaet, ack, we can have 1:1 instead
<apw> ( :) )
<robbiew> lol
<skaet> zul, fair enough.  looks like robbiew's connection is being a bit flaky.
<robbiew> nah...just switched machines ;)
<skaet> awp, lol.  any time.
<robbiew> fwiw, +1 on no meeting on the 24th
<ScottK> Or the next week either.
<joshuahoover> robbiew, ScottK: +1
<skaet> yup.   no meeting until january is the plan.  :)   Will clean up the calendar after this.
<skaet> robbiew, any update though on who'll be around?
<robbiew> not yet
<skaet> ok, since I'll need to leave for the airport in a bit, will continue on...
<robbiew> in terms of Canonical folks...I'll need some time to decipher our admin webpage
<zul> skaet: im sure there will be people from the server tam lurking around
<skaet> ack
<joshuahoover> robbiew: good luck with that
<skaet> thanks guys.
<robbiew> yeah...they have no real lives
<skaet> [Topic] Desktop team update - kenvandine
<MootBot> New Topic:  Desktop team update - kenvandine
<seb128> hey
<skaet> sorry seb128....
<seb128> so no pitti, and kenvandine had issue dues to the weather and school
<skaet> thought ken was covering...
<seb128> so I'm representing desktop (but quite unprepared)
<skaet> please go ahead.  :)
<seb128> he was supposed to...
<seb128> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopTeam/ReleaseStatus
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopTeam/ReleaseStatus
<seb128> [LINK] http://people.canonical.com/~platform/workitems/natty/canonical-desktop-team-natty-alpha-2.html
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://people.canonical.com/~platform/workitems/natty/canonical-desktop-team-natty-alpha-2.html
<seb128> [LINK] http://people.canonical.com/~platform/workitems/natty/canonical-desktop-team.html
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://people.canonical.com/~platform/workitems/natty/canonical-desktop-team.html
<seb128> the summary is on the wiki
<seb128> basically we are mostly clean with the python rebuild for the desktop
<seb128> pitti work on CD space continued
<seb128> we have some issues with GTK3 theming that will need discussion
<seb128> (basically theming changed and we will need to rewrite a theme)
<seb128> (if we use gtk3 this cycle)
<seb128> we had a gir abi naming transition as well
<seb128> to follow debian
<seb128> that's mostly done now
<seb128> and the last unity drop from the year is being worked
<seb128> (I will land it shortly)
<seb128> I think that's it
<seb128> our team coverage will be low next week
<seb128> didrocks pitti and I are on holidays
<seb128> other people will probably be away some days as well
<skaet> thank you.  good summary.   heh, you pre-empted my first question.   :)    any feel for the workitems for alpha2 - will be needing to defer some?
<seb128> oh, right we are a bit behind
 * skaet figures that jasoncwarner will be around, and he can help find folk, if there are any critical issues ;)
<seb128> oneconf is a "would be nice to have"
<seb128> we can drop that one
<seb128> same for the telepathy approver
<seb128> without those we should be on shape
<seb128> we will probably drop those at the sprint if required
<skaet> good to know.   thanks.
<skaet> will keep an eye on it then.
<skaet> any one else have questions for seb128?
<skaet> Thanks seb128!  :)
<seb128> thanks ;-)
<skaet> [Topic] Ubuntu One Team - joshuahoover
<MootBot> New Topic:  Ubuntu One Team - joshuahoover
<joshuahoover> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOne/NattyReleaseStatus
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOne/NattyReleaseStatus
<joshuahoover> details on where we're at with blueprints and releases are in the link above
<joshuahoover> we're "this close" (imagine my thumb and index finger together) to releasing desktopcouch along with a new python-couchdb package...we ran into an issue earlier this week where desktopcouch was not pairing with ubuntu one properly...that fix is being merged and then we'll be doing a release
<joshuahoover> we got our zeitgeist work into the latest release of ubuntuone-client this week
<joshuahoover> the beginning of the new year should see our work for selecting which folders you want to sync on your computer land and then it's on to more blueprints and bug fixing
 * skaet keeps her fingers crossed desktopcouch
<joshuahoover> and that's about it for u1 this week
<joshuahoover> ..
<skaet> sounds good
<skaet> who's going to be around next week?
<joshuahoover> skaet: it will be rather sparse...Chipaca should be around most of the week i believe
<skaet> okie,  good to know.
<skaet> any other questions for joshuahoover?
<dbarth> joshuahoover: a pointer to the zeitgeist feature?
<dbarth> joshuahoover: but we can see that offline, just curiosity
<skaet> will move along then.
<skaet> Thanks joshuahoover! :)
<skaet> [Topic] Kubuntu Team update - riddell
<MootBot> New Topic:  Kubuntu Team update - riddell
<Riddell> hi
<skaet> hi
<Riddell>  * KDE built on ARM and PowerPC in natty (except KOffice which is building now and completed fine in PPA and KDevelop which is broken everywhere)
<Riddell>  * KDE SC 4.4.5 in lucid-proposed for testing
<skaet> yay
<ScottK> We even have (oversized) live CD images for powerpc.
<skaet> woohoo....  cool.
<skaet> any other updates?
<ScottK> Riddell: ^^^
<skaet> or questions for Riddell, ScottK ?
<ScottK> While we're waiting, I'll throw in that with KDE 4.6 beta2 the switch to upower/udisks from hal is looking much better.
<Riddell> that's all
<skaet> Thanks ScottK, Riddell :)
<Riddell> yes, hal is gone
<skaet> :)
<skaet> ok,  will move on then...
<skaet> [Topic] Desktop Experience Team Update - dbarth
<MootBot> New Topic:  Desktop Experience Team Update - dbarth
<dbarth> hi
<skaet> hi
<dbarth> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopExperienceTeam/NattyReleaseStatus
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopExperienceTeam/NattyReleaseStatus
<dbarth> status report as usual
<dbarth> so we're landing today 3.2.8, the new weekly update of unity
<dbarth> basically we're getting to the end of the launcher development and should be pretty much feature complete now
<dbarth> similarly, the panel got a big update as well with the integration of the latest global menu specification
<dbarth> on the bug front, we're struggling with compiz bugs
<dbarth> new bugs, on the new codebase, which explains why we're not really on the old codebase bugs
<dbarth> today the challenge is to resolve some really weird regressions with window z-order being rather... well interesting, but not terribly usable
<skaet> heh
<dbarth> on the foundations side, ie dbusmenu et al, libdee finally landed with a shinny new gdbus backend
<dbarth> testing, we have startup perf. counters finally in unity and soon compiz as well; we can draw pretty graphs
<dbarth> we'll have a synthetic perf. indicator next week
<skaet> neat
<dbarth> that's about it for this week
<skaet> ..?
<skaet> ;)
<dbarth> oh, and we've just finalized some reinforcement plans for a11y which has proved more difficult than expected
<dbarth> so the situation should improve early in January
<dbarth> uh, bug front, ie milestoned bugs: they haven't changed since last week, but we haven't really moved on them either; they were on the old codebase, and we're struggling on the new one now mostly
<dbarth> questions?
<skaet> Thanks for the explanation about the bugs earlier was wondering about that influx this week.  :p
<marjo> dbarth: do you plan to go back and work on those old bugs, or do you intend to close them as invalid?
<skaet> who's going to be around next week?
<dbarth> next week, alex launi will be probably the main representative
<skaet> okie.   thanks!
<dbarth> but i'll be around 1h a day to take care of the current affairs
<skaet> :)
<skaet> Thanks dbarth!   any other questions before I move on?
<skaet> [Topic] ARM team update - rsalveti
<MootBot> New Topic:  ARM team update - rsalveti
<rsalveti> Full Status at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ARMTeam/ReleaseStatus/Natty
<rsalveti> ..
<rsalveti> - Latest working OMAP4 image is from 20101214, latest were broken because of archive inconsistence
<rsalveti> - New kernel for OMAP4, still based on 2.6.35 but now with working PM and USB OTG
<rsalveti> - FTBFS is smaller due the Qt fix, but unfortunately ghc6 is blocking a lot of haskell related packages (takes 32 hours to build and many times does not succeed)
<rsalveti> - Firefox is currently crashing on ARM (bug 690445)
<rsalveti> - Still some open SRU bugs left
<rsalveti> - No much WI done, mostly because of people on vacation and blocking issues with the ARM PPA blueprint
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 690445 in firefox (Ubuntu) "Firefox crashes on armel" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/690445
<rsalveti> ..
<rsalveti> Image Status
<rsalveti> ..
<rsalveti> - Latest working one is from 20101214
<rsalveti> ..
<rsalveti> Work Items
<rsalveti> ..
<rsalveti> - Entire http://people.canonical.com/~platform/workitems/natty/canonical-arm.html
<rsalveti> - Next Milestone http://people.canonical.com/~platform/workitems/natty/canonical-arm-natty-alpha-2.html - some will probably move to alpha 3, but we'd like wait and do that over the sprint
<rsalveti> ..
<rsalveti> Bugs
<rsalveti> ..
<rsalveti> - Bug 686320 released and Network Manager is working again at ARM
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 686320 in network-manager (Ubuntu) "NetworkManager crashes with SIGSEGV while loading the usb0 interface on Panda" [High,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/686320
<rsalveti> unfortunately we're behind on the wi
<rsalveti> we'll probably start moving some to alpha 3 soon, as currently all our WI are target to alpha-2
<rsalveti> that's most of it
<rsalveti> next week I'll be around, probably with janimo and GrueMaster
<rsalveti> and everybody should be back in january
<rsalveti> ..
<skaet> Thanks rsalveti!   ack on waiting to the sprint for the milestone moves.  will keep an eye on it.   and thanks the info on coverage.  :)
<rsalveti> sure, thanks :-)
<rsalveti> ..
<skaet> anyone else has questions?
 * skaet appreciates rsalvetti using .., and having answers ready before I asked ;)
<rsalveti> :-)
<skaet> [Topic] MOTU team update - ScottK
<MootBot> New Topic:  MOTU team update - ScottK
<ScottK> http://qa.ubuntuwire.com/ftbfs/ is still concerning.  i386/amd64 are about four times what they were at release I think due mostly to gcc4.5 and linking changes.  armel and powerpc are about double.
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://qa.ubuntuwire.com/ftbfs/ is still concerning.  i386/amd64 are about four times what they were at release I think due mostly to gcc4.5 and linking changes.  armel and powerpc are about double.
<ScottK> Python transition seems to be making good progress.
<ScottK> Mostly due to the work doko and barry are doing.
<ScottK> Getting the (I know still pending) docs done on how to deal with the linking issues will be a help.
<ScottK> ..
<skaet> Thanks ScottK!  :)
<skaet> allison has a draft in flight right now, so hopefully today/early next week it will broadcast.
 * ScottK nods
 * skaet thanks doko and allison for putting it together :)
<ScottK> It might be nice to make it public while still draft so community people can contribute.
<skaet> they will, just don't want to confuse things further.
<skaet> its on a wiki
<skaet> ... or will be shortly.
<skaet> who'll be around over the next week?
<skaet> ScottK, ^^^
<ScottK> I'll be around through Thursday.
<ScottK> On and off after that.
<skaet> cool.   Thanks.
<ScottK> The community is diverse enough someone's almost always here.
<skaet> :)
<skaet> any other questions for ScottK ?
<skaet> Thanks ScottK!
<skaet> [Topic] Linaro update - JamieBennett
<MootBot> New Topic:  Linaro update - JamieBennett
 * skaet looks around for JamieBennett?
<skaet> hmm..
<skaet> [Topic] any other kudos/comments/concerns?
<MootBot> New Topic:  any other kudos/comments/concerns?
<skaet> ok, I'll take the silence and absence of hands as my queue to wrap this up.    :)
<skaet> Best wishes to everyone for safe and happy holidays.
<robbiew> thnx skaet!  Hopefully the Jedi Counsel approves your membership next time around...may the force be with you!!!! :P
<skaet> LOL
<skaet> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 11:21.
<skaet> Thanks marjo, victorp, jdstrand, apw, cjwatson, seb128, zul, joshuahoover,  dbarth, rsalveti,  ScottK, robbiew :)
<seb128> thanks
<rsalveti> thanks skaet
<apw> and skaet
<joshuahoover> thank you skaet
<zul> np thanks
<jdstrand> thanks
<victorp> skaet - thanks and merry xmas!
<marjo> skaet: thx!
<skaet> merry christmas victorp, and everyone who celebrates it.  Happy holidays to everyone else.  :)
 * skaet heading out to airport now, for her flight.    
<victorp> skaet indeed!
<frivolo^379f^> Ciao a tutti :)))
#ubuntu-meeting 2010-12-18
<AndrewMC> #startmeeting https://bit.ly/i0v5CN
<MootBot> Meeting started at 11:00. The chair is AndrewMC.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<JoeMaverickSett> o/
<AndrewMC> welcome everyone to the Ubuntu Youth team meeting
<Puck`> \o
<AndrewMC> everyone that is here can they please say "here"
<AndrewMC> here
<Mkaysi> here
<serfus> o/
<Puck`> here
<JoeMaverickSett> here
<nisshh> woops, nearly missed it :)
<Puck`> haha nisshh ((:
<Sir_Konrad> Did I miss anything?
<AndrewMC> nope
<JoeMaverickSett> Sir_Konrad: nope. just started.
<AndrewMC> anyway onto our first topic...
<Puck`> yepp Sir_Konrad, everyone said here
<Puck`> ((:
<Sir_Konrad> Ok. :P
<nisshh> Zack is not here i take it?
<AndrewMC> [TOPIC] Project and Team status reports
<MootBot> New Topic:  Project and Team status reports
<AndrewMC> okay so Puck` anything you want to tell us about the website?
<Puck`> well
<Puck`> we didn'T start yet, there's not much activity, actually no activiry, I'd need some coders to start on it
<Sir_Konrad> o/
<AndrewMC> well from what i heard you had Sir_Konrad and BasicXP right?
<Puck`> php, css, ajax, jquery, anything
<Puck`> yeah, i'll talk to them after the meeting and we'll setup something to start this evening if they have time
<AndrewMC> okay great
 * JackyAlcine wonders if he can speak.
<nisshh> Puck`, i have some experience with HTML/CSS/javascript if you need more help
<nisshh> JackyAlcine, sure
<AndrewMC> JackyAlcine: sure you can just cant vote until we vote on you joing the team later
<Puck`> nisshh: awesome, any help is welcome, briefly we'll start with ideas to see waht we're aiming at and i'd like to build everything from the ground up
<Sir_Konrad> Puck`, I offer my assistance.
<Puck`> so after the meeting we'll continue in the #ubuntu-youth
<nisshh> Puck`, right, although i dont know PHP :)
<Puck`> nisshh: we'll cover that pretty much
<nisshh> so thats a no-go if you want my help :)
<Puck`> Sir_Konrad: awesome (:
<nisshh> ok
<Sir_Konrad> ;)
<Puck`> everyone will work on what they know best and we'll coordinate it
<nisshh> Puck`, sounds good
<AndrewMC> and also Puck` and helpers #ubuntu-youth is open to your discussion about it, also the Project discussion section of the forums
<nisshh> yeah
<Puck`> AndrewMC: we'll use that for sure, even the forum, so what matters:
<JackyAlcine> Okay.
<Puck`> After the meeting -> #ubuntu-youth Website Discussion
<JackyAlcine> I have experience with PHP and JavaScript.
<AndrewMC> yes
<Puck`> JackyAlcine: you're welcome to join so is anyone who wants too, we'll discuss more in a bit
<JackyAlcine> I'm pretty good with JSON/XML conversion for XMLHTTPRequests as well.
<JackyAlcine> Okay, thanks, Puck`
<Puck`> combining that with nisshh's javascript and my php knowsledge, we're ajaxing already (:
<Puck`> getting Sir_Konrad to CSS, and we're kind done haha
<Puck`> see? it's that easy
<Sir_Konrad> lol! :D
<JoeMaverickSett> Puck`: :D
<AndrewMC> i assume that the planet is all set skfin leads that
<Puck`> ((:
<Sir_Konrad> Yes, seriously. ;)
<Puck`> AndrewMC: yes, planet is up http://planet.puck.in
<Puck`> that reminds me, we need a domain, like really ..
<JackyAlcine> CSS 3 coder right hurr! :D
<JackyAlcine> But what is this for?
<Puck`> and as a donation I'm ready to host the website and even buy a domain for the team
<JackyAlcine> The new site?
<AndrewMC> Puck`: well maybe a freeone or something to start with then maybe get youth.ubuntu.com or something once we are totally done
<AndrewMC> oh nvm then
<AndrewMC> [LINK] http://planet.puck.in
<Puck`> AndrewMC: okay, then we'll start on a subdomain somewhere, again ,we'll just talk about all of this after the meeting in #ubuntu-youth
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://planet.puck.in
<Sir_Konrad> The planet is our blog? Wonderful!
<AndrewMC> Puck`: yes but now that i think about it our own domain would be simpler
<Puck`> JackyAlcine: I'll talk about everything in #ubuntu-youth, okay?
<Puck`> we'll make sure everyone catches up
<Puck`> so I guess we can move to the next topic
<JackyAlcine> kkay, Puck`
<JoeMaverickSett> JackyAlcine: if you haven't already, you might want to read this; https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuYouth/ :)
<AndrewMC> okay well the project skfin and I are working on, A begineers doc on how to join the #ubuntu-youth channel is coming along
<AndrewMC> we are near completion
<JoeMaverickSett> AndrewMC: cool! :)
<Sir_Konrad|iHTC> I'm rebooting my Ubuntu box. Sorry.
<AndrewMC> okay any other projects, team ideas, before we move on?
<Sir_Konrad|iHTC> I kind of do n
<Puck`> social networking? Identi.ca, twitter, facebook?
<AndrewMC> ah right
<Puck`> do we have the accounts or something?
<AndrewMC> well identica is there
<AndrewMC> [LINK] http://identi.ca/group/ubuntuyouth
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://identi.ca/group/ubuntuyouth
<Sir_Konrad|iHTC> I could maintain a Twitter for the team n
<Puck`> ubuntuyouth is not taken
<AndrewMC> twitter i dont think has been made yet but zkriesse or I can get on that
<Sir_Konrad|iHTC> Stupid mobile keyboard...
<Puck`> AndrewMC: I say go for it and also do a Facebook page
<Puck`> these linked is a powerfull tool to make use noticed
<AndrewMC> indeed
<AndrewMC> yes we just havnt gotten around to it but zkriesse or I will get those made sometime in the near future
<AndrewMC> okay we all clear to move on?
<Puck`> AndrewMC: awesome, just make sure you get ubuntuyouth on twitter before anyone else, it's important (:
<Puck`> sure, go on
<AndrewMC> [TOPIC] Please register on the forum and use it
<MootBot> New Topic:  Please register on the forum and use it
<Sir_Konrad> Yes... I need to register.
<Puck`> Yes, I need to remember the link
<Sir_Konrad> lol
<AndrewMC> our forum can be a powerful tool for project collaboration... we have dedicated sections just for that
<AndrewMC> [LINK] http://uy-forums.net
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://uy-forums.net
<Sir_Konrad> Everyone, favorite it.
<Puck`> done
<JoeMaverickSett> :)
<AndrewMC> okay moving along
<AndrewMC> [TOPIC] New members!
<MootBot> New Topic:  New members!
<Sir_Konrad> Done here too. Do we need a new logo for it?
<AndrewMC> actually wait before we do that
<Sir_Konrad> Ok AndrewMC. One thing though.
<AndrewMC> [TOPIC] New member approval process
<MootBot> New Topic:  New member approval process
<skfin> Whoah I forgot this
<Sir_Konrad> My sister is on the Ubuntu Artwork Team, and she should be able to do something for us.
<Sir_Konrad> Ok, moving right along. Sorry..
<Puck`> since it's a members forum it's not that important, but a logo for the site is very welcome!
<Sir_Konrad> She can really help. She's awesome with GIMP.
<Puck`> which can be used on the forum too (:
<JackyAlcine> I'm pretty good with design media.
<JackyAlcine> I'll upload something to the main IRC room later.
<Puck`> JackyAlcine: i'm starting to feel that we can give you all website related work ((:
<skfin> Whoah I forgot this
<skfin> * here
<Puck`> ey skfin
<skfin> Not starting very well for me
<AndrewMC> okay well zkriesse and i have come up with a new member approval process
<AndrewMC> since the council only has 3 people in it we cannot actively maintain a mentor system
<AndrewMC> so this is what we came up with
<Puck`> who are the members?
<Sir_Konrad> And how did the former mentor system work?
<Puck`> i mean the council members?
<AndrewMC> Puck`: voiced in #ubuntu-youth and on the LaunchPad page
<AndrewMC> Puck`: its me, zkriesse, and you
<Puck`> oh, right, i forgot about that :D
<JackyAlcine> Lol, Puck`, I've been in web programming, design and management for 3 years. :D
<AndrewMC> okay well here is what we have come up with...
<AndrewMC> 1. People must make a LaunchPad page (we help if the need be for any of these)
<AndrewMC> 2. Must sign the CoC
<AndrewMC> 3. Create a wiki page with a little info on themselves
<nisshh> that sounds good
<Sir_Konrad> Great. I need to sign the CoC and make me a wiki.
<AndrewMC> 4. They need to be active in some way, IRC, forums, mailing list etc they must be active and then we vote at the meetings
<AndrewMC> okay now
<AndrewMC> [TOPIC] New Members!!
<MootBot> New Topic:  New Members!!
<AndrewMC> okay well we have 2 people to vote on JackyAlcine and Mkaysi
<JackyAlcine> :D
<AndrewMC> JackyAlcine: have you made a LP page, signed CoC, and begun a wiki page?
<AndrewMC> Mkaysi: have you made a LP page, Signed the CoC, and begin a wiki page?
<JackyAlcine> Yes, Lp (https://launchpad.net/~jackyalcine), CoC: (signed) and Wiki (https://wiki.ubuntu.com/jackyalcine)
<AndrewMC> JackyAlcine: okay great
<AndrewMC> Mkaysi: ?\
<Mkaysi> Yes (http://wiki.ubuntu.com/mkaysi and my launchpad profile is s-mika and also created forum profile
<AndrewMC> in the meantime... JackyAlcine why dont you tell us a little bit about yourself
<AndrewMC> Mkaysi: have to signed the Code Of Conduct?
<Mkaysi> Yes
<Puck`> okay JackyAlcine you fooled me, I thought you're a girl
<JackyAlcine> Well, I'm an enthusiastic desktop programmer and web publisher.
<JackyAlcine> Lol, everyone does, Puck`
<JackyAlcine> I'm currently a senior in high school and I'm planning in double majour in Computer Science and Business Management in college.
<Sir_Konrad> Awesome.
<Sir_Konrad> :)
<JackyAlcine> Also, I've been an active participant in the Speech Control project (https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SpeechControl)
<IAmNotThatGuy> Puck`, LOL
<JackyAlcine> and now, I've been appointed as Development Coordinator of the Speech Control project.
<JackyAlcine> I have yet to get my CMS up and running (need a home server, :'( )
<JackyAlcine> and I wish to have Ubuntu more rightfully known as the free solution - not alternative - to everyday computing.
<Puck`> impressive, like really (:
<Sir_Konrad> Yeah!
<AndrewMC> [VOTE] Adding JackyAlcine as a Ubuntu Youth team member... CURRENT MEMBERS ONLY CAN VOTE
<MootBot> Please vote on:  Adding JackyAlcine as a Ubuntu Youth team member... CURRENT MEMBERS ONLY CAN VOTE.
<MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
<MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
<AndrewMC> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from AndrewMC. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
<IAmNotThatGuy> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from IAmNotThatGuy. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2
<skfin> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from skfin. 3 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 3
<JoeMaverickSett> +1
<Sir_Konrad> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from JoeMaverickSett. 4 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 4
<MootBot> +1 received from Sir_Konrad. 5 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 5
<Sir_Konrad> hehe!
<nisshh> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from nisshh. 6 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 6
<AndrewMC> [ENDVOTE]
<MootBot> Final result is 6 for, 0 against. 0 abstained. Total: 6
<IAmNotThatGuy> can I change the vote as -1 for JackyAlcine ?
<Puck`> +1
<IAmNotThatGuy> :D
<Puck`> darn
<AndrewMC> JackyAlcine: welcome
<Puck`> ((:
<IAmNotThatGuy> Puck`, late :P
<nisshh> haha, Puck` :)
<Sir_Konrad> Welcome to the team, JackyAlcine!
<IAmNotThatGuy> JackyAlcine, Welcome =]
<JackyAlcine> :D Thank you, guys.
<Puck`> it's skfin's fault!
<JoeMaverickSett> hello again & welcome to the team, JackyAlcine :)
<AndrewMC> okay Mkaysi its your turn to tell us about yourself
<IAmNotThatGuy> Puck`, no PMs :P
<skfin> Puck`: It wasn't my fault!
<Puck`> welcome to the team JackyAlcine, I'm really looking forward to working with you(:
<Mkaysi> I'm 15 years old and from Finland.
<Mkaysi> I have used Ubuntu since 8.04.
<Puck`> oh, skfinland
<IAmNotThatGuy> lol
<skfin> Lol
<JoeMaverickSett> hehe :D
<Sir_Konrad> ;)
<AndrewMC> Mkaysi: you finished?
<Puck`> Mkaysi: waht studies do you want to have in the future? (:
<Mkaysi> I'm not good at introducing myself.
<skfin> FINished
<Mkaysi> Something releated to technology and computers, I think.
<skfin> tut!
<skfin> Tampere University of Technologies
<Puck`> well I believe it's enough that skfin got you here,at least for me (:
<AndrewMC> okay well lets vote shall we
<Puck`> we shall!
<skfin> Puck`: :)
 * Puck` won't miss out on it now!
<Sir_Konrad> :D
<AndrewMC> Mkaysi: well one more thing....
<AndrewMC> Mkaysi: what interests you with Ubuntu
<Sir_Konrad> If you guys could excuse me for a couple minutes. I'll be right back. I vote +1.
<Mkaysi> Translating (to finnish), I think
<AndrewMC> cool
<AndrewMC> [VOTE] Adding Mkaysi as a Ubuntu Youth Team member
<MootBot> Please vote on:  Adding Mkaysi as a Ubuntu Youth Team member.
<MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
<MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
<Puck`> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from Puck`. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
<Puck`> \o/ 1st!
<nisshh> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from nisshh. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2
<serfus> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from serfus. 3 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 3
<skfin> +1
<nisshh> Puck`, lol
<MootBot> +1 received from skfin. 4 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 4
<AndrewMC> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from AndrewMC. 5 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 5
<AndrewMC> 5 seconds...
<IAmNotThatGuy> _1
<IAmNotThatGuy> aww
<IAmNotThatGuy> +1`
<Puck`> haha
<IAmNotThatGuy> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from IAmNotThatGuy. 6 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 6
<IAmNotThatGuy> Puck`, :P
<AndrewMC> [ENDVOTE]
<MootBot> Final result is 6 for, 0 against. 0 abstained. Total: 6
<IAmNotThatGuy> Welcome Mkaysi
<AndrewMC> okay Mkaysi you are now a team member... have fun :)
<nisshh> IAmNotThatGuy, lol, FAIL :)
<IAmNotThatGuy> nisshh, :P
<AndrewMC> last topic
<AndrewMC> [TOPIC] Any other concerns, ideas, comments
<MootBot> New Topic:  Any other concerns, ideas, comments
<JoeMaverickSett> Mkaysi: welcome! :D /me missed the vote, sorry. :|
<Puck`> yeah, when you're online just say something in the main channel, you might make  someone talk and we'd be more active
<Mkaysi> Thanks
<Puck`> (:
<Puck`> like randomly or something
<AndrewMC> [ACTION] AndrewMC to send out mailer with meeting log URL, Update topic of #ubuntu-youth
<MootBot> ACTION received:  AndrewMC to send out mailer with meeting log URL, Update topic of #ubuntu-youth
<Puck`> maybe I had too much energy drinks ((:
<IAmNotThatGuy> lol
<JoeMaverickSett> Puck`: i do think so. :P
<AndrewMC> and update forums
<AndrewMC> okay anything else
<JoeMaverickSett> AndrewMC: yes, sir!
<JoeMaverickSett> i mean yes to *update forums* :D
<AndrewMC> Okay
<AndrewMC> Thank you all for joining us today... Discussion fallowing this meeting needs to be in #ubuntu-youth
<AndrewMC> [ENDMEETING]
<AndrewMC> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 11:42.
 * Puck` bows
<Puck`> thank you youngsters
<JoeMaverickSett> Puck`: thank you..... :P
<serfus> thanks guys
#ubuntu-meeting 2010-12-19
<Objectivity_> test
#ubuntu-meeting 2011-12-12
<roadmr> hello!
<roadmr> hello again!
<roadmr> it's time for the weekly Ubuntu Friendly meeting!
<roadmr> let's get started
<roadmr> #startmeeting Ubuntu Friendly Meeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Mon Dec 12 16:01:37 2011 UTC.  The chair is roadmr. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/AlanBell/mootbot.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Ubuntu Friendly Meeting Meeting | Current topic:
<roadmr> Hi all! Welcome to the Ubuntu Friendly meeting!
<roadmr> We only have a small topic on the Agenda today, but please remember, if there's anything at all you'd like to discuss, just let me know.
<roadmr> Our agenda for today includes:
<roadmr> Progress report on new Checkbox (System Testing client) user interface.
<roadmr> Any Other Business
<roadmr> Let's get started with our first topic!
<roadmr> [TOPIC] Progress report on new Checkbox (System Testing client) user interface.
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Ubuntu Friendly Meeting Meeting | Current topic:  Progress report on new Checkbox (System Testing client) user interface.
<roadmr> So if you've run the Ubuntu Friendly tests, you're no doubt familiar with Checkbox.
<roadmr> Although good enough for most needs, the UI is lovably quirky and the way it is built limits the improvements we can easily make.
<roadmr> Since we were looking at a major overhaul, it was decided to create a new UI module for checkbox, to implement the new features we want and have room to improve it more easily.
<roadmr> There are both a new UI design in general, and a number of specific suggestions we received from the community during Ubuntu Friendly testing.
<roadmr> Ideally we'd like to incorporate these in the User Interface. Remember that we welcome ideas on specific pain points or interface quirks you'd like to see taken care of.
<roadmr> The UF mailing list is probably a good place for this, we like receiving stuff on the ML!
<roadmr> The one new thing about the UI is that, thanks to help from Ugo Riboni and Tiago Herrmann's expertise, there's already some progress in implementing a checkbox UI in Qt \o/
<roadmr> For now work has gone into recreating the existing Checkbox UI in Qt, both for Tiago to get to know Checkbox and for us to get to know Qt :)
<roadmr> But in the near future (days, I expect), we'll refocus into creating the new Checkbox UI with what has been learned.
<roadmr> I'll check with Tiago to see if we can make a branch public for you all to see, although at this stage it's mostly an experiment.
<roadmr> Once we start actually implementing the new UI, we'll let you all know and follow along on the progress.
<roadmr> ... I guess that's it as far as progress on the UI goes!
<roadmr> Any comments or questions about this? :)
<roadmr> nothing? :)
<jedimike> o/
<roadmr> jedimike: go ahead!
<jedimike> a new ui for checkbox is exciting, and I'd like to see a UI purely for ubunu friendly
<jedimike> it would consist of one button
<jedimike> that says "Run the ubuntu friendly tests"
<jedimike> to make sure we run everything we need
<jedimike> and still allow people to use the more detailed UI for running checkbox in the way they've been accustomed to
<jedimike> ..
<cr3> o/
<roadmr> jedimike, good suggestion!
<roadmr> cr3: you go
<cr3> I might be inclined to agree with jedimike to have an Ubuntu Friendly specific client, but only if we can provide a link to Ubuntu Friendly at the end of the run
<cr3> ..
<jedimike> o/
<roadmr> noted, the "press this big button to do Ubuntu Friendly testing" approach sounds like the most intuitive way to tackle it
<roadmr> jedimike: heh, go ahead!
<jedimike> cr3: agreed, the UI for UF should be focussed on the friendly aspect, and shouldn't present anything more than is needed to run UF, and present UF info that the usual system testing checkbox ui doesn't
<jedimike> ..
<roadmr> oh so we're now talking about two UIs!
<cr3> o/
<roadmr> cr3, go
<cr3> there seems to be much demand for slightly varying UIs: checkbox, friendly, certification, unity, etc.
<jedimike> o/
<cr3> I've been thinking of refactoring the checbox core: 1. to remove plugins; 2. to replace them with a job driven UI
<cr3> so, the introduction screen should be specified as: plugin: interface; name introduction; description; welcome to Ubuntu Friendly...
<cr3> ..
<roadmr> cr3: well in principle people can come up with their own Checkbox frontends, but that way it'd be easier for them to do.
<roadmr> jedimike: your turn!
<cr3> just in case the outcome wasn't clear: a different UI would simply mean a different whitelist :)
<jedimike> it just seems to me like system testing would be for testing your system, the UF interface would be to participate in the ubuntu friendly program. While the testing backend is checkbox in both cases, the intentions and requirements are different, so a different, simpler UI for UF seems to be a good fit, from my view
<jedimike> ...
<roadmr> jedimike: yep agreed on that, and also the UI would probably share a lot of components. For this I liked the Gtk approach where you can come up with prefabricated "panels" or pieces and just bring them in as needed
<roadmr> jedimike: I guess Qt can do the same
<roadmr> OK so it's something to consider for when actual work starts on the new UI, which should really be within the next few days.
<cr3> roadmr: I suspect the user_interface api should be sufficient for both intents and purposes, friendly and system testing
<roadmr> cr3: yep, it should be
<roadmr> we do need to come up with actual user stories and storyboards for the UI, something more detailed than the mockups we have
<roadmr> I'll keep everyone posted on this via the mailing list
<roadmr> anything else on this topic? :)
<cr3> o/
<roadmr> cr3: go ahead!
<cr3> it sounds like this request for a UF interface is very similar to the one expressed by the Unity folks
<cr3> the motivation being that changing the interface will result in more user testing
<cr3> I would like to question that motivation and perhaps get some validation that the problem is really the interface
<cr3> so, in addition to mockups, could we also do somekind of market research to justify that what we're doing will actually result in better numbers?
<cr3> ..
<roadmr> cr3: quite a valid point.
<roadmr> cr3: to be fair, the UI work to be done for checkbox is in direct response to user feedback
<roadmr> cr3: but I agree that we should be sure about the "ROI" before committing a lot of resources to this
<roadmr> cr3: getting rid of annoyances like "closing the checkbox window ends the testing run, no questions asked" is one thing
<cr3> roadmr: we should either get those numbers prior or at least plan to get them afterwards in the current case where we already committed to investing resources
<roadmr> cr3: but changing stuff without a real justification is probably not good
<cr3> roadmr: that's a bug, not a preference :)
<roadmr> cr3: a preference is just a user-configurable bug :)
<cr3> roadmr: actually, I misunderstood that as the checkbox window closing after each test. it might be a preference but I think it's been justified by plenty of user feedback
<roadmr> cr3: no, if you click on the "x" to close the checkbox window by mistake, it just closes, no "are you sure you want to abandon the test run?", no nothing
<roadmr> I know cuz I've done it :(
<cr3> roadmr: right, I remember now, just read too fast the first time around :)
<roadmr> cr3: yep, it might be reasonable to depict feature requests as user stories, the "so I can..." thing is very good at distilling the intent behind a particular feature request
<roadmr> awesome feedback on this topic!
<roadmr> anything else for this?
<roadmr> OK let's move on then
<cr3> roadmr: I see bugs like the one you mentionned as a cost center because it won't necessarily translate into more submissions, we may want to start thinking of improvements as profit centers that translate into more submissions
<cr3> roadmr: ie, express the user stories you mentionned that way
<roadmr> cr3: sounds like a good idea! Though I can envision a submission being "lost" because a user lost its patience and decided not to restart the test run after mistakenly closing checkbox :(
<roadmr> cr3: if fixing the bug helps us "recover" those submissions, that may be worthwhile to fix
<cr3> roadmr: sure, as long as it's expressed in such a way that leads to more submissions rather than just stories about people using checkbox in various ways without a purpose :)
<roadmr> cr3: agree 100%, sounds like a useful way to constrain the stories to make them more useful
<roadmr> ok then, let's move on!
<cr3> roadmr: exactly, it might even help us priorities the stories
<roadmr> cr3: yes, highest submission value first :)
<roadmr> [TOPIC] Any Other Business
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Ubuntu Friendly Meeting Meeting | Current topic:  Any Other Business
<roadmr> Got anything you want to discuss? Anything Ubuntu Friendly related goes.
<jedimike> o/
<roadmr> jedimike: go!
<jedimike> I'd like to get some feedback on the homepage. At the moment it's just listings, starting with the highest rated systems. I'd like to know what people would like to see, if they'd like something different, or if they like how it is.
<jedimike> ...
<cr3> o/
<roadmr> cr3: go ahead
<cr3> jedimike: I think people could argue that when a listing becomes large enough, just showing a small subset on the home page is useless.
<roadmr> o/
<cr3> jedimike: the reason is probably because that list becomes stale at some point, always the same small subset is shown
<jedimike> o/
<cr3> jedimike: so, people tend to provide more active information, like "lastest hardware" or something like that
<cr3> jedimike: perhaps we've reached enough hardware to make it worthwhile to consider other options at this point
<cr3> .
<cr3> .
<roadmr> roadmr, you go
<roadmr> thanks! heh, one problem I see is that the listing is somehow not turning up the way we expected it to
<roadmr> meaning that we see a lot of systems with very few ratings, rather than a large sample per-system
<roadmr> so yes, the ones that get 5 stars tend to always be the same
<roadmr> the "latest systems tested" section would be interesting to have
<roadmr> also, we could come up with a "spotlight" and rotate systems that have tested well, even though they may be a bit further down the list
<roadmr> finally, I saw some comments about how the home page just throws the listing into your face, assuming you know a priori what it is about
<roadmr> so maybe a short explanation blurb on the front page could help
<roadmr> "UF lists systems that are known to work well with ubuntu, yadda yadda, want to know more? click up there. Or just go straight into the listing"
<roadmr> that'd probably be easy enough to add and we could gauge how people feel about it. How to gauge? well I don't know yet :(
<roadmr> ..
<cr3> jedimike: go ahead :)
<jedimike> just wanted to say if anyone in the community had ideas, wanted to do some mockups, or anything like that, I'd welcome the input :)
<jedimike> ..
<cr3> jedimike: I like this mockup: http://www.ubuntu.com/certification
<cr3> jedimike: just kidding, except for the blurb, the rest of the page doesn't necessarily translate well to UF
<roadmr> OK! remember that the mailing list is open and probably a good place for that kind of feedback and suggestions
<roadmr> anything else? any other business?
<roadmr> nothing? :) Going once...
<roadmr> Going twice...
<roadmr> Well, looks like we're done, but please remember the mailing list is there if you ever want to discuss a topic, suggest an idea, or bring something to the Ubuntu Friendly Squad's attention.
<roadmr> I guess that's it for today then, thanks all for attending!  And see you here next monday (December 19th) at the same time.
<roadmr> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Mon Dec 12 16:51:00 2011 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2011/ubuntu-meeting.2011-12-12-16.01.moin.txt
<roadmr> thanks everyone!
<jdstrand> hi!
<tyhicks> hello!
<jjohansen> hi
<sbeattie> hey
<jdstrand> let's get started
<jdstrand> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Mon Dec 12 18:03:29 2011 UTC.  The chair is jdstrand. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/AlanBell/mootbot.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
<jdstrand> The meeting agenda can be found at:
<jdstrand> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/Meeting
<jdstrand> [TOPIC] Weekly stand-up report
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Weekly stand-up report
<jdstrand> I'll go first
<jdstrand> it'll be a short week for me this week
<jdstrand> I have friday off. next week I'll have of thursday and friday
<jdstrand> I'm in the triage role this week
<jdstrand> I have some python updates I am working on, and an embargoed update
<jdstrand> I have 1 more MIR audit left I think, as well as some archive admin work I couldn't get to last week
<jdstrand> I'm also patch piloting today
<jdstrand> I think that is it from me. sbeattie, you're up
<sbeattie> I'm on community this week.
<sbeattie> I'm in the middle of writing up my notes on cgroups; that should go out later today.
<jdstrand> sbeattie: excellent! thanks :)
<sbeattie> I'm also poking at jamespage's patch to add logging to upstart.
<jdstrand> sbeattie: (james hunt :)
<sbeattie> bah, jameshunt; one of the borg of the james
<jdstrand> hehe
<micahg> james page is the java borg :)
<sbeattie> I also have some backburnered updates going on.
<sbeattie> I think that's it for me; micahg?
<micahg> I'm preparing the Firefox/Thunderbird 9 release later in the week as well as the Firefox Lucid/Maverick rapid release transition, with work on the webkit 1.6 transition as time permits
<micahg> tyhicks: ?
<tyhicks> I'm in the happy place this week
<tyhicks> The acpid update last week took a bit longer than expected, so I've got some car
<tyhicks> ry over from last week
<tyhicks> I should get the bzip2 update out today
<tyhicks> I'm almost done with the patch for bug 885744 (eCryptfs pathconf reporting)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 885744 in eCryptfs "pathconf() does not reflect reality" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/885744
<tyhicks> My math is just a little bit off in taking the max lower filename length and calculating the eCryptfs overhead, so I need to make a tweak or two to that
<tyhicks> I've got the eCryptfs make test work item to do
<tyhicks> and I'll move on to another update or two this week
<tyhicks> jjohansen: you're up
<jjohansen> There is the regular kernel USN work and the kernel team have asked for some help looking at a couple of CVEs.  For apparmor I'll be poking at mount rules, and updated permissions, and domain transitions for stacking this week, along with putting a ppa together for testing the updated apparmor out.  I am off next week
<jjohansen> hrmm, that didn't paste so well ;/
<jjohansen> so that its from me
<jjohansen> mdeslaur: ? or perhaps back to jdstrand
<jdstrand> mdeslaur had a meeting conflict. I know he is working on several updates this week
<jdstrand> mdeslaur: feel free to chime in if desired, but you should be covered
<jdstrand> oh, he is also in the happy place this week
<jdstrand> [TOPIC] Highlighted packages
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Highlighted packages
<jdstrand> The Ubuntu Security team will highlight some community-supported packages that might be good candidates for updating and or triaging. If you would like to help Ubuntu and not sure where to start, this is a great way to do so.
<jdstrand> See https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/UpdateProcedures for details and if you have any questions, feel free to ask in #ubuntu-security. To find out other ways of helping out, please see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/GettingInvolved.
<jdstrand> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/krb5-appl.html
<jdstrand> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/opendchub.html
<jdstrand> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/vdr.html
<jdstrand> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/kompozer.html
<jdstrand> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/poco.html
<jdstrand> [TOPIC] Miscellaneous and Questions
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Miscellaneous and Questions
<jdstrand> Does anyone have any other questions or items to discuss?
<jdstrand> ok
<jdstrand> sbeattie, micahg, tyhicks, jjohansen: thanks!
<jdstrand> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Mon Dec 12 18:19:26 2011 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2011/ubuntu-meeting.2011-12-12-18.03.moin.txt
<micahg> thanks jdstrand
<tyhicks> thanks jdstrand
<sbeattie> thanks
<pitti> cjwatson, kees, soren, stgraber: meeting reminder in 6 mins
<soren> pitti: already holding my breath
 * kees waves
 * soren makes waves
<Riddell> pitti: can you let me post through to the technical-board mailing list
<cjwatson> hi
<ScottK> Riddell: I think cjwatson can moderate stuff in near real time.
<cjwatson> ScottK overestimates me, but done anyway
<ScottK> That was pretty near.
<pitti> Riddell: running listadmin
<pitti> ah, thanks cjwatson
<ScottK> Riddell: You didn't happen to cc stuff to kubuntu-devel did you?
<Riddell> ScottK: no but it's just a pointer to https://wiki.kubuntu.org/Kubuntu/12.04/LTS-Proposal
<ScottK> OK.  Thanks.
<cjwatson> however FWIW I do think we need more than a few hours between a proposal to the list and voting on it
<pitti> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Mon Dec 12 21:01:00 2011 UTC.  The chair is pitti. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/AlanBell/mootbot.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
 * stgraber waves
<pitti> welcome everyone to Ubuntu Late Night Tech Talk
<pitti> *cough* Tech Board
<pitti> #link https://wiki.ubuntu.com/TechnicalBoardAgenda
<pitti> (just updated with another agenda item)
<pitti> kees: here by chance?
<pitti> ah, you waved, nvm
<pitti> #topic action review
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: action review
<pitti> sorry, I spectacularly failed with documenting the brainstorm review bits
<pitti> will do first time tomorrow, promised (unless yet another thing blows up all over again :) )
<highvoltage> if you're going to fail, at least do it spectacularly.
 * pitti has a huge paper note at his desk now
<pitti> so, kees didn't start yet, so both carried
<pitti> #topic edubuntu LTS application
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: edubuntu LTS application
<pitti> stgraber: this is still blocked on Kubuntu LTS app, right?
<pitti> or is there something else for this which we should talk about?
<kees> yeah, sorry :(
<stgraber> pitti: still blocked on Kubuntu and my inability to use germinate :)
<highvoltage> Well, I see from the link earlier that Kubuntu now has a proposal on the way, so that's a good thing at least.
<Riddell> bit late due to my ill health alas
<highvoltage> I updated the apps list of what we currently ship on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Edubuntu/12.04/LTS-Proposal
<jdstrand> what is the proper forum to repsond to the https://wiki.kubuntu.org/Kubuntu/12.04/LTS-Proposal application?
<stgraber> pitti: I have the full diff from Kubuntu+Ubuntu => Edubuntu which contains a lot of java stuff, so trying to re-generate the list without geogebra (that's pulling everything) but for some reason germinate doesn't seem to care about my local changes to the seed :)
<pitti> highvoltage: ah, that list is very useful, thanks
<Riddell> jdstrand: technical-board list?
<highvoltage> there's also a link to packages that's installed that's not on the Ubuntu/Kubuntu discs: http://paste.ubuntu.com/768132/ (thanks to stgraber)
<jdstrand> ok
<pitti> stgraber: and freemind, presumably?
<cjwatson> stgraber: contact me about that outside the context of the meeting and I expect I can help
<pitti> dia-gnome and calibre seem rather hard to support, but otherwise the list looks pretty tame
<stgraber> pitti: right, though apparently geogebra is the worst, I don't mind having a few java dependencies, having hundreds of them is a bit annoying though :)
<broder> stgraber: have you cross-referenced that against the server seed? seems like there's probably a fair amount of server stuff in there
<broder> err, java stuff
<stgraber> cjwatson: will do, that was my next step :)
<pitti> stgraber: ok, so should we carry that until the next meeting until Kubuntu has been discussed?
<stgraber> broder: The output was diffing ubuntu.precise + kubuntu.precise to edubuntu.precise, I expect ubuntu-server to be part of ubuntu.precise (but should definitely check)
<stgraber> pitti: yep
<cjwatson> BTW you might find it easier to use python-germinate now that it exists
<cjwatson> save on parsing
<cjwatson> ubuntu-server is in the ubuntu.precise seed collection, yes
<stgraber> oh right, forgot the new shiny stuff, will give it a try
<pitti> #topic non-PAE kernel disposition
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: non-PAE kernel disposition
<pitti> anyone from the kernel team here?
<tgardner> who is driving the discussion ?
<pitti> tgardner, bjf?
<bjf> yes
<pitti> ah, hello!
 * cjwatson sends a reminder to slangasek, since I know he wanted to weigh in here
<slangasek> ah yes, hi
<pitti> it was already discussed quite a bit on the lists (@devel, IIRC)
<tgardner> we'd like to drop the non-pae kernel since we don't think its getting much use.
<ScottK> It only felt like devel-discuss.
<cjwatson> wait, I'm sorry, "we don't think it's getting much use" ?!
<pitti> so my first question would be how much actual effort it would be to keep the flavour; if it's more than the kernel team can spend, we wouldn't have much to decide anyway
<tgardner> plus, I think supporting it for another 5 years is a waste of resource.
<pitti> from my outside POV it doesn't feel like a lot of extra maintenance, but IANAKD
<tgardner> pitti, its all incremental.
<cjwatson> not getting much use is obviously no kind of sense at all because it's the default up to oneiric.
<pitti> second question: given that it is currently our default kernel, do we have a proven rock-solid way of migration, or determining when a CPU does not support PAE and stopping the upgrade?
<kees> I have no memory of non-pae flavors ever causing ftbfs or other support problems. why not drop it in P+1 and then everyone is happy?
<pitti> I'm certainly in favour of making the PAE one the default kernel in P as a first step
<kees> pitti: non-pae will not boot a pae kernel at all.
<pitti> kees: right
<kees> yeah, me too
<pitti> kees: I meant, what to do with upgrades?
<kees> pitti: ah, the "pae" flag in cpuinfo should be sufficient.
<pitti> we can't just do the upgrade and then leave the user with an unbootable system
<pitti> so we'd need an update-manager quirk there
<tgardner> pitti, I think the upgrade path is clear for those that have PAE capable CPUs.
<pitti> which sounds rather easy to do
<tgardner> we will have to check that its capable.
<slangasek> my own concerns are twofold
<cjwatson> It's only clear if you make the -generic kernel depend on -generic-pae, which makes it unclear for the rest
<pitti> tgardner: the upgrade would be via switching linux-meta?
<pitti> and keeping the non-PAE names as transitionals?
<tgardner> pitti, taht, and the upgrade manager would have to detect PAE support
<slangasek> - I don't understand why there's any measurable incremental cost to maintaining this flavor for the kernel team, and I don't get the impression this cost has actually been measured (I alluded to this in https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel/2011-November/034463.html, but perhaps should have asked the question more directly)
<cjwatson> This is too important to rely on update-manager
<pitti> failing linux/linux-meta preinsts would be the "last line of defence", but quite ugly, too
<tgardner> cjwatson, so how do you normally do this sort of thing when capabilities are being withdrawn ?
<pitti> tgardner: I think we don't have much precedence here, we need to figure it out
<cjwatson> It must go in packages themselves, not relying on update-manager
<slangasek> - since feedback to the question on ubuntu-devel overwhelmingly indicated that there are users who care about having a pae kernel for precise (which is exactly the kind of feedback you'd expect in such a thread), it's not at all clear what the threshold actually is for "getting enough use" to be worth keeping
<cjwatson> It is simply not acceptable to cause upgraders with apt-get to end up with unbootable systems
<cjwatson> (In any case, I think it's incumbent on those developers who are withdrawing support to deal with this kind of thing)
<tgardner> slangasek, nobody presented any hard facts. I expected a little howling anyways.
<cjwatson> slangasek: do you mean "having a non-pae kernel for precise"?
<tgardner> cjwatson, I agree. but we have to solve this problem now or later.
<cjwatson> Why?
<slangasek> tgardner: "I run a non-PAE machine that I care about running precise on" is certainly a hard fact; I'm not sure what you mean
<kees> slangasek: you meant "having a non-pae kernel for precise" ?
<slangasek> tgardner, kees: yes, I meant non-pae, sorry
<cjwatson> Optimising the i386 architecture does not seem compelling to me.
<cjwatson> I don't feel at all good about chopping off another percentage of users.  Sooner or later salami tactics are going to bite.
<tgardner> slangasek, there a folks that ran sparc, ia64, and hppa. why did we drop those ?
<cjwatson> Those had orders of magnitude fewer users and orders of magnitude greater difficulty in supporting them.
<soren> I don't thikn the maintenance burden of those flavours compares very well to the non-PAE one.
<mdz> is there any way we can get some data on this, so we don't have to make as many assumptions?
<mdz> e.g. can we actually try to estimate the proportion of our user base who would be affected by this?
<cjwatson> We could start a thread on -devel and assume that the people who reply are unrepresentative
<tgardner> the one fact that I have is that non-PAE CPUs have not been in widespread production for 10 years. (I think tat was what Ben said on the list)
<cjwatson> sorry
<highvoltage> if I may chime in, in my dayjob we hava clients who use thin clients that weren't bought not too long ago (3-5 years ago) that uses via cpus that don't have pae support. we have one client that runs more then 5000 of these machines. upgrading them to stay on the latest lts right now would be quite costly
<mdz> I think we have an excess of anecdotes and a dearth of data
<highvoltage> (it's easier to say it's supported for now but in 5 years it will be dropped than it suddenly happening now)
<highvoltage> (and sorry for adding another anectode :) )
<mdz> how about counting the proportion of non-pae CPUs in hardware profile submissions?
<slangasek> tgardner: I would also like to understand why this is a maintenance burden for the kernel team; since I can't see any reason it should be a measurable amount of work, if it actually *is*, I think that's a process bug that I'd like to see if I could help fix
<tgardner> bjf might be able to have a look at that.
<slangasek> (in its own right, and not just because of non-pae in particular)
<pitti> mdz: wouldn't catch thin clients, but at least it's some data
<kees> this isn't about if the machines exist or not (they do) since no one is talking about eliminating non-pae. the question, as I saw it, was _how_ to move it to universe for precise.
<cjwatson> FWIW, while I'm totally unpersuaded as to the need to drop i386/generic, I'm happy to switch the installer default
<mdz> pitti, I suggest only that it would be more representative than our individual opinions :-)
<pitti> cjwatson: right; I'm not really concerned about new installs/live system here, much more about upgrades
<tgardner> cjwatson, that only makes sense if we drop non-pae, right? otherwise it just won't boot
<slangasek> kees: the proposal from tgardner was to assist someone in uploading a separate source package for a non-pae flavor to universe; I think that's tantamount to killing it (or ought to be
<pitti> mdz: yes, fully agreed :0
<cjwatson> kees: That has not been clear to me; I had been given to understand that this was the kernel team wanting to stop building i386/generic, which isn't -> universe, it's -> /dev/null
<kees> it sounds like the kernel team wants -generic out of main. I have no problem with that, the default kernel for ubuntu should have been PAE a long time ago, so I'd support that.
<slangasek> )
<pitti> I don't believe in a separate universe package
<pitti> it'll essentially double the maintenance effort without any benefit
<cjwatson> tgardner: Huh?  It doesn't require the kernel packaging to drop the generic flavour at all.
<kees> making non-pae unavailable for this release (an LTS) seems like a serious mistake. I see no evidence at all that it would help anything.
<pitti> or, if we don't double it, then people can't run it as it wouldn't get security updates, etc.
<cjwatson> d-i s/generic/generic-pae/, base-installer (or preseeds or something) s/generic/generic-pae/, done
<slangasek> having a separate source package for non-pae might look good on paper from the kernel team's perspective, but with my archive admin hat on I think that would be a pretty broken thing to do, and I don't think anyone would actually step up to do it on those terms
<kees> I here 3 topics: making PAE the default kernel (we seem to all agree +1), moving non-pae to universe, dropping non-pae completely.
<cjwatson> Personally I'm not happy with kernels in universe as it's a pain for archive admins to manage which are in universe and which in main; it's a lot simpler if they're all in main
<cjwatson> But I suppose we could solve that if we had to
<mdz> from the perspective of someone who hasn't kept up with ubuntu-devel recently, it's surprising to me how heated this discussion is
<kees> I'm completely against all-out dropping of non-pae.
<mdz> can we try to dial it back a little?
<kees> mdz: sure. can we do 1 topic at a time, then? I think that may help.
<tgardner> slangasek, the maintenance burden is non-zero. its costs some amount of time to build it, there are config files to maintain, and so on. Its not a huge burden, but I'm trying to assess whether its worth while as all. time is money.
<pitti> ah, you mean do build it from "linux", just have the binary in universe
<pitti> above I meant that I don't believe in a separate source in universe
<pitti> we tried that several times in the past, and it didn't work out
<kees> pitti: agreed
<slangasek> tgardner: I have a hard time believing that any maintenance costs to keep it in an LTS even approach the amount of time that's already been spent discussing ;)
<cjwatson> While I understand that the kernel team specifically would probably save some small amount of time by dropping one i386 flavour, I question whether the net time benefit to the Ubuntu (development) community as a whole is positive
<tgardner> slangasek, it does when you consider the repetetive nature of the maintenance process.
<cjwatson> Not to mention the net time cost to users of affected systems if we were to drop the flavour entirely
<tgardner> don't forget, I'm also looking forward to a number of ARM flavours, so I'm trying to shed some work.
<kees> is there any objection to moving to pae-by-default?
<pitti> well, at some point we need an upgrade mechanism to deprecate flavours
<pitti> I just don't think we have that worked out properly yet
<cjwatson> I do not object, although I anticipate some trickle of requests to be able to install on older systems, which will come in as regressions
<cjwatson> That will take some amount of my time to diagnose before I determine that they are non-PAE
<kees> okay, so, next is "drop non-pae entirely?"
<pitti> my feeling is that we should switch to PAE by default first and have a few alphas/betas with that out for real field testing
<stgraber> I don't object, though it's easier to switch to the PAE kernel post-install rather than finding a way to get a non-PAE installer
<cjwatson> But on the whole PAE-by-default is probably a better default, at least, for precise
<slangasek> tgardner: well, I still don't understand how you arrive at the conclusion that an extra flavor which is nearly identical to generic-pae in every way and should be maintainable in a scriptable fashion has a measurable impact, and I would like to understand that - but I don't necessarily want to take up the TB's time with that discussion
<pitti> and can then drop non-PAE to universe in P+1 when we worked out an upgrade mechanism to safely stop upgrades for non-PAE systems
<soren> If we actually intend to keep it around in universe, but not be the default, the install instructions will be embarassing. "First, install Oneiric. Then, upgrade to Precise." and it gets even worse for P+1.
<stgraber> my guess is that having PAE the default for desktop is fine, alternate and server may be a bit trickier (and not having the same everywhere would be even worse)
<soren> Can we have one kernel in the installer and another as the default in the installed system?
<pitti> we'll need the same mechanism for the gazillions of armel flavours that we have at some point, too
<cjwatson> stgraber: If we have the same everywhere it's not especially challenging
<soren> Hm... I guess that'll be quite costly in ISO space.
<cjwatson> soren: Yes, but it's a bad idea
<cjwatson> soren: It means some people can boot the installer but not the installed system
<soren> cjwatson: WEll, the installer could detect the non-PAE-ness of the system and install the non-PAE kernel, but again: ISO space.
<cjwatson> soren: If the non-PAE flavour is in universe, then by definition the installer won't consider it
<cjwatson> (And yes, ISO space)
<soren> cjwatson: Ah, yes.
<cjwatson> (But I think that's a secondary issue)
<soren> Someone would need to provide a special iso for non-pae.
<cjwatson> netboot
<pitti> soren: why?
<cjwatson> Although we can't build debian-installer for non-PAE if the non-PAE kernel is in universe.
<kees> soren: yes, this is what already happens. the pae kernel is pulled from the network when pae+>3G RAM is seen.
<soren> kees: Oh, ok.
<cjwatson> So in reality, non-PAE -> universe means that it's upgrade-only, no fresh installs
<cjwatson> kees: not on CD installs right now
<soren> pitti: Why what?
<kees> cjwatson: I thought that was a feature of the alt installer?
<kees> I read the code for that...
<cjwatson> kees: We prefer that CD installs are self-contained
<pitti> soren: I mean, either we declare PAE as dead or not; if we do, then we shouldn't jump through hoops to actually do support it through the backdoor
<pitti> (and my feeling is that Precise+1 is the right time to do that, not Precise0
<soren> pitti: "someone" wouldn't be "us".
<cjwatson> kees: The code to select it is there, but at that point the apt sources.list doesn't include a network source
<kees> ah
<cjwatson> Unless you're doing a network install
<soren> pitti: Someone with a non-pae system who cared enough.
<pitti> soren: ah, ok
<cjwatson> Anyway, this feels like a digression to some extent, but I wanted to clarify the exact implications of moving to universe
<pitti> tgardner: would it actually buy anything if the non-pae binary was in universe?
<pitti> (because I fail to see the benefit of that)
<kees> so, as for data, with bdmurray's help, I downloaded 7271 x86 cpuinfos from bug reports on LP about a year ago. 336 of those were non-pae. http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~cpu-checker-dev/cpu-checker/trunk/files/head:/test/
<tgardner> pitti, not from my perspective
<cjwatson> pitti: yes
<pitti> we'll have a hard enough time sorting out components already
<cjwatson> pitti: It would guarantee that anyone who's installed afresh with precise is not using a non-PAE kernel
<kees> so that's just under 5%
<tgardner> cjwatson, don't we guarentee that by making PAE the default boot kernel ?
<pitti> cjwatson: so, ignoring community supported ISOs (soren's proposal)
<cjwatson> tgardner: That would be a smaller change with probably a similar effect, yes
<cjwatson> 5% is way more than I'm comfortable with saying can't upgrade to precise
<pitti> and probably an underestimation, too
 * cjwatson wouldn't want to guess that either way
<pitti> (thin clients, more technically savvy people having more modern machines, etc.)
<pitti> a lot of kees' attachments coming from development releases (apport), etc.
<mdz> kees, thank you!
<tgardner> then the one thing we should come out of this discussion with is an approach to end-of-life 'cause this is going to happen in the ARM space as well.
<kees> yeah, I'm not saying it's the best data, but it is something.
<mdz> it gets us in the ballpark
<cjwatson> There is some degree of precedent for doing things in libc6.preinst, which might also apply to a kernel preinst
<cjwatson> It's a pretty ugly way to fail but it is a failsafe
<soren> Well, for libc6, we're pretty sure it's going to attempt the update quite early on (due to lots and lots of dependencies on it), right?
<cjwatson> update-manager could be used to apply more grace
<pitti> agreed
<cjwatson> (i.e. tell you before you start downloading anything)
<slangasek> tgardner: for my part, I don't think we would be having this discussion for EOLing an ARM flavor
<pitti> or just not offer to upgrade at all
<slangasek> because each ARM flavor has its own kernel source package, so there's obviously a huge cost to maintain each one
<tgardner> slangasek, why? dropping non-pae is no different dropping ti-omap4, is it ?
<pitti> so I think I see consensus that TB members wouldn't like to drop non-pae support for precise already
<pitti> at least not until (1) non-PAE is the default, and (2) the finer details of upgrades are implemented
<kees> I think the right time to drop arch support is after LTS.
<slangasek> tgardner: sure it is; ti-omap4 is a separate, non-upstream source tree which incurs a serious maintenance burden for security updates et al, and non-pae is a toggle in a kernel config
<soren> I also expect the number of impacted users to be quite different?
<slangasek> soren: I don't assume that to be the case going forward
<tgardner> slangasek, from the users perspective I don't think its any different. it certainly is a much larger maint burden.
<pitti> I think from an upgrade experience POV omap vs. non-PAE are quite similar indeed
<slangasek> at some point, our omap4 userbase may well exceed 5% of our i386 userbase
<cjwatson> FWIW, I do think that the right long-term story for the majority (not all) of PAE-capable systems is to figure out smooth crossgrades to amd64
<stgraber> kees: +1 I'm more than happy to drop non-PAE for 12.10, the LTS is pretty much the worst possible time to do it (from our users' point of view)
<pitti> we curently don't have a good story for deprecating arches
<soren> slangasek: Yes, but now?
<cjwatson> Hence my comment above about not seeing the need to optimise the i386 architecture much
<slangasek> soren: certainly not now - I was trying to speak to the broader question tgardner raised, of how do we approach EOLing support of a kernel flavor
<slangasek> soren: I don't believe that EOLing ti-omap4 is on the table for precise anyway
<slangasek> lamont might be a bit peevish if we dropped support for all the new buildds ;)
<tgardner> slangasek, indeed he would
<soren> slangasek: Right. My point is just that the number of impacted users affects the gravity of decision.
<soren> But I think that's been well established by now anyway :)
<slangasek> soren: certainly.  I still believe there's a relevant *qualitative* difference between dropping a flavor from a kernel source package and dropping a heavily-patched BSP kernel source package that would take precedence
<soren> slangasek: Certainly.
<slangasek> if someone felt strongly that there should be a ti-omap4 tree that the kernel team didn't want to maintain, they could step up and do that
<slangasek> and the net impact would be the same and everyone would be happy
<pitti> slangasek: well, we'd still need to solve the very same upgrade issue
<pitti> (but I think we discussed how to do that already)
<slangasek> but when you're saying that someone who wants to continue support for non-pae should do it as a separate source package, that's much less efficient than if it were maintained in tree
<slangasek> and costs the time not only of someone volunteering to maintain it, but also of the SRU, security, and (possibly) installer teams
<slangasek> pitti: I don't think we would... if the ti-omap4 flavor went away, we wouldn't automatically upgrade them to the kernel flavor for an unrelated SoC
<slangasek> there is no ARM "generic" kernel
<pitti> slangasek: we can't call that supported, though
<pitti> the installed kernel would never ever get any upgarde any more
<pitti> so the only sensible thing there you can do is to stop upgrading altogether IMHO
<pitti> (and at EOL just say "sorry")
<cjwatson> I think we need to think about that separately; the upgrade questions seem quite dissimilar to the case at hand here
<pitti> I actually think it's one of the main reasons why we can't drop it yet
<cjwatson> We can derive some hints from our response to this case, but it doesn't give us a solution
<tgardner> Is everyone comfortable that I can _for sure_ drop this flavour for 12.10 ?
<slangasek> I would have no objection to that
<pitti> no objection from me
<stgraber> I'm definitely fine dropping it for 12.10, I'd like it if we announce it ASAP though
<tgardner> count on that
<pitti> also, any objectoin to switching to PAE by default in P?
<stgraber> so people can plan to roll out 12.04 as their last release on that hardware
<pitti> as I'd like some actual field testing of that; dropping the current default seems a bit too fast
<stgraber> pitti: I'd like to still keep a documented way of installing non-PAE 12.04. I'm fine if that option is d-i's mini.iso though.
<cjwatson> I'm comfortable with announcing plans for that, but I think there should be some level of negative feedback beyond which we reverse
<cjwatson> It is not clear where the burden of proof for that lies
<cjwatson> It would be feasible to (a) change installer default to PAE (b) add a non-PAE installer flavour which is netboot only (or maybe cdrom and selectable by flavours such as Lubuntu)
<kees> tgardner: yeah, +1 from me too to drop non-pae in P+1
<cjwatson> I am happy to do that fairly small amount of work
<stgraber> good, sounds like we have a plan then!
<cjwatson> (Hardly anyone will find that new installer flavour off their own bat, but it would be possible to direct people to it)
<pitti> great
<cjwatson> FWIW that's what we did before for the old -386 flavour
<pitti> we have one more topic, but are running out of time
<pitti> #topic Micro release Exception for Nova, Swift, Glance, and Keystone
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Micro release Exception for Nova, Swift, Glance, and Keystone
<pitti> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/technical-board/2011-November/001142.html
<pitti> everyone ok with discussign that on the list?
<kees> I wonder if might be possible to improve the "fail-to-boot-you're-missing-PAE" message the non-PAE kernel produces...
 * kees nods
<stgraber> pitti: works for me
<pitti> #topic next meeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: next meeting
<pitti> I figure we can safely assume that December 26 meeting won't happen?
<pitti> (I certainly can't be there)
 * cjwatson will not be there
<pitti> so the next one will be January 9, at the sprint
<mdz> I probably won't be around either
 * soren neither
<stgraber> pitti: skipping the 2nd of January too?
<pitti> mdz: can you chair on Jan 9? You're next on the alphabetica llist
<stgraber> pitti: doh, nevermind :)
<mdz> pitti, I think so, let me confirm
<mdz> pitti, yes
<pitti> splendid
<pitti> so, thanks everyone, and for that circle, happy christmas holidays!
<kees> \o
<slangasek> thanks for your time, guys
<tgardner> later...
<pitti> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Mon Dec 12 22:00:28 2011 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2011/ubuntu-meeting.2011-12-12-21.01.moin.txt
<stgraber> thanks!
<pitti> tgardner: thanks for joining
<tgardner> pitti, np
<pitti> I'll send notes tomorrow morning, way past bedtime; good night!
<broder> stgraber: does that mean i shouldn't expect a jan 2 dmb meeting either?
<micahg> broder: we can discuss at the meeting next week :)
<stgraber> broder: I'll be around on the 2nd, not sure for the rest of the board
#ubuntu-meeting 2011-12-13
<head_victim> Good evening all, Asia/Oceania Membership Board meeting just about due
<head_victim> Good evening Destine
<Destine> head_victim, hey, i logged in from two devices and that was a mess...
<head_victim> No dramas, the first order of business it to make quorum :)
<Guest80767> head_victim, hey, I am Destine II :)
<head_victim> lifeless or elky about?
<head_victim> I can't see any of the other members in the channel at the moment.
<Destine> head_victim, me neither...
<Destine> ejat?
<head_victim> Actually lifeless = Rob so he advised on the mailing list he wouldn't be able to make tonight
<Destine> head_victim, oh, he is Robert.
<Destine> head_victim, then we need to look for the others.
<head_victim> Yep, I just trawled launchpad :)
<czajkowski> I can step in if yer stuck
<head_victim> czajkowski: thank you :) I just also wanted to confirm applicants had shown before hassling others so are vibhav or bonepyaesone around here with different nicks?
<head_victim> It's not looking good on either front, applicants or board members :
<czajkowski> nope
<head_victim> Destine & czajkowski thanks for showing but I think we'll have to call it. We're 20 minutes in and have neither applicants nor quorum. I'll write an email to the list as we can't keep going on like this.
<head_victim> I was hoping the addition of extra members recently (myself included) was going to improve our ability to meet quorum.
<Destine> head_victim, I guess so. Thank you for your work.
<head_victim> Destine: thanks for showing up :)
<czajkowski> head_victim: sorry
<head_victim> czajkowski: don't be, at least this time no applicants were hindered
<vibhav> Has the meeting ended?
<head_victim> vibhav: yes sorry, it started at 1000UTC (about an hour and 20 minutes ago)
<vibhav> head_victim: What were the outcomes
<vibhav> I had gone for classe
<vibhav> classes *
<head_victim> None of the applicants were present so we had to postpone to next meeting.
<vibhav> gah
<head_victim> We don't usually like to make judements without applicants present.
<vibhav> :(
<vibhav> well thanks head_victim
<vibhav> Is it important for the applicants to be present?
<head_victim> vibhav: hopefully you can make the january 10th meeting :)
<vibhav> head_victim: I dont think so , I can
<vibhav> cannot*
<head_victim> vibhav: I'm not sure to be honest, my suggestion is if you have problems attending the meetings due to timezone issues I'd email the membership board. Hang on I'll grab the address
<vibhav> head_victim: Nice idea
<czajkowski> vibhav: if you cant attend the A/O board you can attend another membership board
<czajkowski> like Americas or EMEA
<vibhav> czajkowski: But I am not in the respective geographical reigon
<czajkowski> vibhav: that doesnt matter
<czajkowski> vibhav: your wiki page should detail all your work done and the board members can make decisions based on that and talking to you
<vibhav> czajkowski: Thanks!
<czajkowski> np
<vibhav> Is there any way for getting membership ?
<vibhav> czajkowski : All the timings of the Meetings are colliding with my schedule :(
<vibhav> czajkowski: including Americas and EMEA
<czajkowski> vibhav: you do have to attend one of them
<vibhav> :9
<vibhav> :(
<vibhav> Cant do that
<czajkowski> maybe in another month or so you could arrange to get 10-15 mins and attend one of them
<vibhav> For the americas meeting , I can be available for 5 mins or so
<czajkowski> it takes a bit longer. it's up to you vibhav
<vibhav> Maybe I should contact the membership board
<smoser> the honorable utlemming will be presiding.
<hallyn_> three cheers
 * Ursinha waves
<zul> oh...hello
<utlemming> honorable? how about Distinguished?
<zul> how about awesome-x
<zul> how about awesome-o even
<smoser> its your meeting. whatever you want.
<utlemming> lol
<rbasak> awesome-p, surely?
<hallyn_> but let's get this show on the ROAD
<utlemming> okay, lets get rolling then
<utlemming> #startmeeting Ubuntu Server Team Meeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Tue Dec 13 16:04:53 2011 UTC.  The chair is utlemming. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/AlanBell/mootbot.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Ubuntu Server Team Meeting Meeting | Current topic:
<utlemming> #TOPIC Review ACTION points from previous meeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Ubuntu Server Team Meeting Meeting | Current topic:  Review ACTION points from previous meeting
<utlemming> Reviewing items from last week...
<utlemming> and it doesn't look like there are any
<utlemming> does anyone have any follow up on last weeks discussion items?
<utlemming> okay then
<utlemming> #topic Precise Development
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Ubuntu Server Team Meeting Meeting | Current topic:  Precise Development
<utlemming> I believe that we are sans Daviey today
<zul> improvise! improvise!
<hallyn_> ok, zul - take charge
<zul> not me
<utlemming> zul, bug 883988?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 883988 in glance (Ubuntu Precise) "db migration failing when upgrading glance - trying to create existing tables" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/883988
<zul> still need to be looked at
<SpamapS> o/
<jamespage> o/
<utlemming> bug 893926
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 893926 in eucalyptus (Ubuntu) "Contains traces of UEC" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/893926
<utlemming> still doesn't have an owner....any takers?
<utlemming> no?
<SpamapS> lol .. draw straws
<utlemming> and SpamapS drew the shortest one!
<utlemming> fancy that
<SpamapS> I think we probably should try to sync with Debian at this point
<utlemming> lets leave this for an action then
<utlemming> bug 855030
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 855030 in nova (Ubuntu Oneiric) "Encountering sporadic AMQPChannelException" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/855030
<utlemming> zul, it looks like its fixed released?
<zul> utlemming: yeah
<zul> the fix landed in percise
<smoser> percise, yo
<utlemming> hallyn: how is bug 881903 moving along?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 881903 in lxc (Ubuntu) "lxc-fedora template is broken" [Medium,Incomplete] https://launchpad.net/bugs/881903
<hallyn_> bot?
<hallyn_> utlemming: it's not
<hallyn_> we're waiting on lxc upstream release
<utlemming> k
<hallyn_> and that is lower prio than the container reboot stuff, which is holding him up
<hallyn_> so i don't care to push :)
<utlemming> fair enough
<utlemming> (if anyone can't tell, I'm working down last weeks meeting notes)
<hallyn_> good idea :)
<utlemming> jamespage: how is bug 888124 looking?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 888124 in excalibur-logkit (Ubuntu) "excalibur-logkit version 2.0-8 failed to build with openjdk-7" [Medium,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/888124
<jamespage> oh - fixable; its part of a larger piece of work to transition default-java from 6->7
<jamespage> I should prob fix it so it comes off the list
<SpamapS> jamespage: is there a transition tracker for that, or does it just require rebuilds for rebuild sake?
<jamespage> SpamapS, well it does not really need one per say
<jamespage> as stuff thats already in the archive will continue to work
<jamespage> as Java is bytecode backwards compatibile - but not source
<SpamapS> right, but rebuilding so we know it will not FTBFS
<jamespage> SpamapS, thats the one
<jamespage> java7-ftbfs tag in lp will tell you what it broken
<utlemming> it looks like we never found an adopter for bug 607039
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 607039 in nfs-utils (Ubuntu) "NFS4 automount using replicated servers doesn't work" [Medium,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/607039
<utlemming> any takers this week?
<smb> err
<smb> Well wanted to try to supply a debdiff but got distracted
<smb> I'd propose to have an alias defined in /etc/modprobe.d
<smb> ..
<hallyn_> smb: i like the idea of goin gthrough debian,
<hallyn_> question is just whether the submitter needs a faster fix.  but i assume they can just fix it locally with a modprobe alias?
<hallyn_> you've tested that?
<smb> hallyn_, either that or just replace fstype nfs4 (which is deprecated anyway) by nfs
<smb> hallyn_, in small scale tested both
<smb> But apparently the reporters lost interest...
<hallyn_> in auto.mnt.  sounds good
<hallyn_> well,
<hallyn_> if they lost interest, let's go through debian, i say...
<hallyn_> (fwiw)
<utlemming> RoAkSoAx: there was a bit of discussion last week with around bug 887186
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 887186 in orchestra (Ubuntu) "squid proxy big and small buckets not functioning correctly" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/887186
<smb> hallyn_, Agreed. Guess I need to file a bug with fix there then
<hallyn_> i'd like to think they lost interest bc the s/nfs4/nfs/ fix worked for them locally :)
<smb> hallyn_, My guess too :)
<hallyn_> ok - i'm not 100% clear how you'd do the debdiff, do you mind doing it?
<smb> hallyn_, I would not mind. Can take a bit of time though
<smb> my only working day this year is Thursday. :-P
<utlemming> adam_g:  bug 862558
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 862558 in cobbler-enlist (Ubuntu Oneiric) "cobbler-enlist is not checking for return codes enough" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/862558
<utlemming> no adam_g?
<utlemming> back to zul then: bug 871278
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 871278 in nova (Ubuntu Precise) "Cannot attach volumes to instances if tgt is used" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/871278
<zul> utlemming: working on that now
<zul> or trying to
<hallyn_> ouch
<SpamapS> utlemming: cobbler-enlist is undergoing quite a few revisions, so that bug may become moot in the near future.
<utlemming> okay, good to know
<utlemming> koolhead: how is bug 890362 moving along?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 890362 in nova (Ubuntu) "Should glance user's shell be /bin/false?" [Medium,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/890362
<smoser> i thought adam_g had a merge proposal for tath
<zul> it got merged and uploaded
<smoser> yeah... but the nova task is still open
<smoser> apparently, "should glance user's shell be /bin/false" also affects nova
<smoser> i'm assuming someone thinks' nova's shell should be /bin/false also
<utlemming> utlemming: bug 891433
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 891433 in squid3 (Ubuntu) "squid3 miss_access bug, fix not included in LTS" [Medium,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/891433
<utlemming> I need to put in the merge proposal, but otherwise its fixed
<utlemming> RoAkSoAx: bug 898840
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 898840 in cobbler (Ubuntu) "'default' preseed should be enlister" [Medium,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/898840
<utlemming> okay
<utlemming> finally...I think we're through the list
<utlemming> does anyone else have Precise Development topics?
<utlemming> #topic Ubuntu Server Team Events
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Ubuntu Server Team Meeting Meeting | Current topic:  Ubuntu Server Team Events
<utlemming> any topics here?
<SpamapS> SCALE10X
<SpamapS> http://www.socallinuxexpo.org/
<SpamapS> Jorge Castro and I will be presenting, and there will be a Juju Charm School on Friday!
<SpamapS> ALso there is a CFP for Velocity out
<utlemming> Moving on then...
<utlemming> #topic Weekly Updates & Questions for the QA Team (hggdh)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Ubuntu Server Team Meeting Meeting | Current topic:  Weekly Updates & Questions for the QA Team (hggdh)
<utlemming> hggdh, ?
<SpamapS> Last bit, get your talks submitted: http://velocityconf.com/velocity2012
<utlemming> no hggdh...so well move on then
<utlemming> #topic Weekly Updates & Questions for the QA Team (hggdh)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Ubuntu Server Team Meeting Meeting | Current topic:  Weekly Updates & Questions for the QA Team (hggdh)
<utlemming> #topic Weekly Updates & Questions for the Kernel Team (smb)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Ubuntu Server Team Meeting Meeting | Current topic:  Weekly Updates & Questions for the Kernel Team (smb)
 * hggdh is here
<smb> The fix for the thing that required idle=halt on ec2 has been fixed upstream and in latest precise.
<smb> Im currently trying to bisect bug 901305
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 901305 in linux (Ubuntu) "precise fails boot on ec2 hvm" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/901305
<smb> Unfortunately I ended up on something unreasonable on first run
<smb> Not sure I did something wrong or what happened. So I go again
<smb> ..
<smoser> smb, the other thing on your list is the atop bug.
<smoser> which seems fairly iportant for 11.10 even though its fix-released in precise already.
<smb> smoser, right. That one seems only to happen on ec2
<smoser> oh...
<smb> Not in my test system
<smoser> are you convinced that it is fix-released in precise ?
<smoser> or was i just lucky
<smb> Thats why I asked whether people know which xen version that instance got
<smb> So when trying first grep for dmseg|grep Xen and note the Xen version
<smoser> right.
<smoser> well.. i'll launch a bunch of instances later and see what i find.
<smb> smoser, Thanks a lot
<utlemming> smb: anything else?
<smb> not from here..
<utlemming> okay, hggdh, back to you
<utlemming> hggdh, do you have anything for us?
<hggdh> utlemming: just some questions:
<hggdh> (1) is cloud-init on Lucid expected to work with Cobbler on Oneiric? If so, we have a bug
<hggdh> (2) are you all good on the QA resources?
<smoser> cobbler will not work with version of cloud-init in lucid.
<hggdh> smoser: ah, thank you. So we need to adjust the cobbler setup on the Lab
<smoser> as cobbler uses /var/lib/cloud/nocloud/seed which i think only exists in at earliest maverick.
<smoser> but the cloud-init stufff is only used for juju i think.
<smoser> right?
<hggdh> I think it is needed for cobbler commands, like reboot, is it not?
<SpamapS> no
<smoser> not that i'm aware of
<smoser> but i could be wrong
<SpamapS> hggdh: it is only used in first-boot config stuff
<smoser> i was not aware of anything that did power control other than "real power control" (ie, lights-out or ipmi or something)
<hggdh> OK. will check more carefully. Right now I know I cannot reboot via cobbler on Lucid
<hggdh> thank you
<hggdh> ..
<SpamapS> hggdh: cobbler doesn't have the ability to "reboot" stuff AFAIK, only to turn the power off/on.
<utlemming> anything else here?
<hggdh> SpamapS: heh. RTFM seems to be needed for me, then. I based myself on the cobbler URL
<hggdh> nope, I am done
<utlemming> #topic Weekly Updates & Questions regarding Ubuntu ARM Server (NCommander)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Ubuntu Server Team Meeting Meeting | Current topic:  Weekly Updates & Questions regarding Ubuntu ARM Server (NCommander)
<utlemming> NCommander, ?
<NCommander> Not much to say
<NCommander> Mostly waiting on hardware (not sure how much I can sya behond that)
<SpamapS> armhf seems to be moving along nicely
<NCommander> armhf bootstrap is proceeding nicely
<NCommander> bah, ninja'ed
<SpamapS> JINX
<utlemming> Okay then...
<utlemming> #topic Weekly Updates & Questions from the Ubuntu Community
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Ubuntu Server Team Meeting Meeting | Current topic:  Weekly Updates & Questions from the Ubuntu Community
<NCommander> fortunately, that only applies to speaking, not typing ;-)
<NCommander> anyway, done
<utlemming> Anyone have anything from or for our fine community of users?
<utlemming> I will take that as a no...
<utlemming> #topic Open Discussion
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Ubuntu Server Team Meeting Meeting | Current topic:  Open Discussion
<utlemming> Any open discussion topics?
<Ursinha> Santa is coming
<SpamapS> I think we should eliminate the "Community" topic. It implies that there are people here at the meeting who are not in the community.
<m_3> SpamapS: +1
<utlemming> +1
<smoser> i'm not in the community
<hallyn_> you ARE the community
<smoser> ignore me.
<SpamapS> We can table it until January though, since we are already missing quite a few who may have strong opinions on that.
<SpamapS> But it just ocurred to me.
<utlemming> #action invite smoser into the community
<meetingology> ACTION: invite smoser into the community
<SpamapS> NICE
<Ursinha> lol
<SpamapS> Another thing that I noticed.. meeting minutes not going out... ???
<smoser> i did not send them out.
<smoser> :-(
<smoser> fail.
<smoser> i can do that. i just didn't get to it.
<smoser> they are supposed to
<SpamapS> The bot like, generates them automatically.. so is there any reason they're not going out to ubuntu-devel and ubuntu-server ?
<smoser> where does it generate them to ?
 * rbasak wonders if adam_g and RoAkSoAx are DST-induced laggards
<SpamapS> smoser: meetingology help page explains it
<SpamapS> rbasak: adam_g most likely yes.. RoAkSoAx is in EDT , so he has no excuse. ;)
<utlemming> isn't adam_g in Oregon?
<utlemming> okay, lets call this
<SpamapS> yes
<utlemming> #Announce next meeting date and time
<smoser> fwiw, i'm not seeing in https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology where minutes are kept.
<rbasak> Speaking of DST, Google Calendar doesn't seem to support UTC times for meetings - but it's been pointed out to me that if you specify Reykjavik then meetings will be pegged to UTC
<smoser> and if they *are* kept somewhere, then personally, i dont see a lot of reason to manually email them to some mailing lists.
<robbiew> rbasak: huh?
<robbiew> yes it does...you just have to have UTC as your default TZ
<SpamapS> smoser: #endmeeting sends you the link, IIRC
<hallyn_> smoser: I'd like to do either m-l or blog, not both
<SpamapS> hallyn_: there's a script that does it automatically
<hallyn_> so everyone says
<SpamapS> lp:~clint-fewbar/+junk/ubuntuserver-minutes/
<SpamapS> Used to be mentioned in the "how to write the minutes" page in the serverteam KB
<hallyn_> SpamapS: I'll try it next week, thx
<smoser> https://code.launchpad.net/~clint-fewbar/+junk/ubuntuserver-minutes/
<SpamapS> utlemming: endmeeting?
<utlemming> Tuesday 2011-12-20 at 1600 UTC - #ubuntu-meeting
<utlemming> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Tue Dec 13 16:59:38 2011 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2011/ubuntu-meeting.2011-12-13-16.04.moin.txt
<smoser> that is documented at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/KnowledgeBase
<jsalisbury> Roll Call for Ubuntu Kernel Weekly Status Meeting
<kamal> o/
<ppisati> o/
<cking> o/
<smb> \o
<sforshee> o/
<bjf> sigh
<arges> o/
<jsalisbury> #startmeeting
<jsalisbury> ##
<jsalisbury> ## This is the Ubuntu Kernel Team weekly status meeting.
<jsalisbury> ##
<jsalisbury> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/Meeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Tue Dec 13 17:00:36 2011 UTC.  The chair is jsalisbury. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/AlanBell/mootbot.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
<jsalisbury> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/ReleaseStatus/Precise
<jsalisbury> # Meeting Etiquette
<jsalisbury> #
<jsalisbury> # NOTE: '..' indicates that you are finished with your input.
<jsalisbury> #       'o/' indicates you have something to add (please wait until you are recognized)
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] ARM Status (ppisati)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: ARM Status (ppisati)
<ppisati> P/omap4: a new kernel (3.2.0-1402.2) based off 3.2 (Ubuntu-3.2.0-3.9) has been released, while a new TI BSP + 3.2-rc5 is in the pipe.
<ppisati> SRU kernels: nothing to report.
<ppisati> ..
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] Release Metrics and Incoming Bugs (jsalisbury)
<jsalisbury> [LINK] http://people.canonical.com/~kernel/reports/kt-meeting.txt
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Release Metrics and Incoming Bugs (jsalisbury)
<jsalisbury> Just adding link this week, instead of posting all data.
<jsalisbury> ..
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] Milestone Targeted Work Items (ogasawara)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Milestone Targeted Work Items (ogasawara)
<ogasawara> [LINK] http://status.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-precise/canonical-kernel-team-precise-alpha-2.html
<ogasawara> || apw        || hardware-p-kernel-boot                || 1 work item  ||
<ogasawara> ||            || hardware-p-kernel-config-review       || 4 work items ||
<ogasawara> ||            || hardware-p-kernel-delta-review        || 4 work items ||
<ogasawara> ||            || foundations-p-ipv6                    || 1 work item  ||
<ogasawara> || cking      || hardware-p-kernel-delta-review        || 1 work item  ||
<ogasawara> || jsalisbury || other-p-bug-workflows                 || 1 work item  ||
<ogasawara> || ogasawara  || hardware-p-kernel-version-and-flavors || 1 work item  ||
<ogasawara> ||            || hardware-p-kernel-config-review       || 21 work items||
<ogasawara> || tgardner   || hardware-p-kernel-version-and-flavors || 1 work item  ||
<ogasawara> ||            || hardware-p-kernel-delta-review        || 1 work item  ||
<ogasawara> If your name is in the above table, please review your Alpha-2 work items.  Note that Alpha-2 is Thurs Feb 2.
<ogasawara> ..
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] Blueprint: hardware-p-kernel-power-management (cking)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Blueprint: hardware-p-kernel-power-management (cking)
<cking> Power Management:
<cking>  * Re-run power.d readahead and journal-commit tests on non-idle
<cking>    user application scenerios.
<cking>  * Measure mouse power consumption, different rates + devices:
<cking>       http://zinc.canonical.com/~cking/power-benchmarking/mouse-movement
<cking>  * Complete PowerTop good/bad results:
<cking>       http://zinc.canonical.com/~cking/power-benchmarking/powertop-good-bad-recommendations
<cking>  * Measure backlight levels power traits:
<cking>       http://zinc.canonical.com/~cking/power-benchmarking/backlight-non-linearity
<cking>  * More extensive 32 vs 64 bit power comparisons (in progress)
<cking>  * Compare UEFI vs BIOS firmware (in progress)
<cking>  * Complete pm-utils measurements:
<cking>       http://zinc.canonical.com/~cking/power-benchmarking/pm-utils-results
<cking>  * Crowd-sourcing pm-utils extra tweaks, CALL FOR TESTING:
<cking>       https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Kernel/PowerManagementPMUtils
<cking> ..
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] Status: Precise Development Kernel (ogasawara)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Status: Precise Development Kernel (ogasawara)
<ogasawara> We have uploaded the 3.2.0-4.10 Ubuntu kernel which is based on latest upstream v3.2-rc5 kernel.  Additionally, after yesterday's Tech Board discussion around the i386 non-pae flavor, it was decided to continue carrying this flavor for 12.04 and then drop it in 12.10.  The installer will also be switched to default to the pae flavor for i386.
<ogasawara> Important Upcoming Dates:
<ogasawara>  * Thurs Feb 2 - Alpha 2 (~7 weeks)
<ogasawara> ..
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] Status: CVE's (apw)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Status: CVE's (apw)
<apw> CVE-2010-4251 CVE-2010-4805 CVE-2011-1082 CVE-2011-1083: epoll DOS --  fix incomplete, referred back to Security for review
<ubottu> The socket implementation in net/core/sock.c in the Linux kernel before 2.6.34 does not properly manage a backlog of received packets, which allows remote attackers to cause a denial of service (memory consumption) by sending a large amount of network traffic, as demonstrated by netperf UDP tests. (http://cve.mitre.org/cgi-bin/cvename.cgi?name=CVE-2010-4251)
<apw> CVE-2011-1747: agp ioctl memory DOS -- no upstream fix as yet
<ubottu> The socket implementation in net/core/sock.c in the Linux kernel before 2.6.35 does not properly manage a backlog of received packets, which allows remote attackers to cause a denial of service by sending a large amount of network traffic, related to the sk_add_backlog function and the sk_rmem_alloc socket field.  NOTE: this vulnerability exists because of an incomplete fix for... (http://cve.mitre.org/cgi-bin/cvename.cgi?name=CVE-2010-4805)
<ubottu> fs/eventpoll.c in the Linux kernel before 2.6.38 places epoll file descriptors within other epoll data structures without properly checking for (1) closed loops or (2) deep chains, which allows local users to cause a denial of service (deadlock or stack memory consumption) via a crafted application that makes epoll_create and epoll_ctl system calls. (http://cve.mitre.org/cgi-bin/cvename.cgi?name=CVE-2011-1082)
<apw> CVE-2011-3347: be2net non-member vlan DOS -- cannot identify upstream fix
<ubottu> The epoll implementation in the Linux kernel 2.6.37.2 and earlier does not properly traverse a tree of epoll file descriptors, which allows local users to cause a denial of service (CPU consumption) via a crafted application that makes epoll_create and epoll_ctl system calls. (http://cve.mitre.org/cgi-bin/cvename.cgi?name=CVE-2011-1083)
<apw> CVE-2011-3638: ext4 extent split -- upstream fix identified, pending application
<ubottu> The agp subsystem in the Linux kernel 2.6.38.5 and earlier does not properly restrict memory allocation by the (1) AGPIOC_RESERVE and (2) AGPIOC_ALLOCATE ioctls, which allows local users to cause a denial of service (memory consumption) by making many calls to these ioctls. (http://cve.mitre.org/cgi-bin/cvename.cgi?name=CVE-2011-1747)
<ubottu> ** RESERVED ** This candidate has been reserved by an organization or individual that will use it when announcing a new security problem.  When the candidate has been publicized, the details for this candidate will be provided. (http://cve.mitre.org/cgi-bin/cvename.cgi?name=CVE-2011-3347)
<apw> CVE-2011-4112: pktgen bridge panic -- redhat is withdrawing the CVE
<ubottu> ** RESERVED ** This candidate has been reserved by an organization or individual that will use it when announcing a new security problem.  When the candidate has been publicized, the details for this candidate will be provided. (http://cve.mitre.org/cgi-bin/cvename.cgi?name=CVE-2011-3638)
<apw> CVE-2011-4131: nfs4 ACL oops -- fix is still iterating upstream, pending
<ubottu> ** RESERVED ** This candidate has been reserved by an organization or individual that will use it when announcing a new security problem.  When the candidate has been publicized, the details for this candidate will be provided. (http://cve.mitre.org/cgi-bin/cvename.cgi?name=CVE-2011-4112)
<ubottu> ** RESERVED ** This candidate has been reserved by an organization or individual that will use it when announcing a new security problem.  When the candidate has been publicized, the details for this candidate will be provided. (http://cve.mitre.org/cgi-bin/cvename.cgi?name=CVE-2011-4131)
<apw> CVE-2011-4347: kvm kvm_vm_ioctl_assign_device crashes -- no upsteam fix as yet
<ubottu> ** RESERVED ** This candidate has been reserved by an organization or individual that will use it when announcing a new security problem.  When the candidate has been publicized, the details for this candidate will be provided. (http://cve.mitre.org/cgi-bin/cvename.cgi?name=CVE-2011-4347)
<apw>  
<apw> === CVE Metrics ===
<apw>  
<apw> [LINK] http://people.canonical.com/~kernel/cve/pkg/CVE-linux.txt
<apw>  
<apw> Currently open CVEs for each supported branch:
<apw>  
<apw> || Package                                  || Open      ||
<apw> ||                                          ||           ||
<apw> || linux Hardy                              ||   10 (-1) ||
<apw> || linux Lucid                              ||    7 (-1) ||
<apw> || linux Maverick                           ||    7 (-1) ||
<apw> || linux Natty                              ||    7 (-1) ||
<apw> || linux Oneiric                            ||    5      ||
<apw> || linux Precise                            ||    5      ||
<apw> || linux-ec2 Lucid                          ||    7 (-1) ||
<apw> || linux-fsl-imx51 Lucid                    ||    7 (-1) ||
<apw> || linux-mvl-dove Lucid                     ||    7 (-1) ||
<apw> || linux-mvl-dove Maverick                  ||    7 (-1) ||
<apw> || linux-ti-omap4 Maverick                  ||    7 (-1) ||
<apw> || linux-ti-omap4 Natty                     ||    7 (-1) ||
<apw> || linux-ti-omap4 Oneiric                   ||    5      ||
<apw> || linux-ti-omap4 Precise                   ||    5      ||
<apw> || linux-lts-backport-maverick Lucid        ||    7 (-1) ||
<apw> || linux-lts-backport-natty Lucid           ||    7 (-1) ||
<apw> || linux-lts-backport-oneiric Lucid         ||    5      ||
<apw>  
<apw> We only have one open CVE with an upstream fix currently.  The remainder await fixes from upstream.
<apw>  
<apw> ..
<apw> (bah, will drop the CVE- prefix for future updates.) ..
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] Status: Stable, Security, and Bugfix Kernel Updates - Oneiric/Natty/Maverick/Lucid/Hardy (bjf/herton)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Status: Stable, Security, and Bugfix Kernel Updates - Oneiric/Natty/Maverick/Lucid/Hardy (bjf/herton)
<bjf> Many of the kernels in -proposed were quickly verified and went into
<bjf> regression testing early. This week is mostly about finishing up the
<bjf> stragglers. A new Oneiric has been prep'd and uploaded. We'll just have
<bjf> to see if we can get it verified and regression tested before the
<bjf> dead week of Christmas.
<bjf>  
<bjf> Here is the status for the main kernels, until today (13/12):
<bjf>  
<bjf>  * Hardy - 2.6.24-30.97
<bjf>   * On holiday
<bjf>  
<bjf>  * Lucid - 2.6.32-36.79
<bjf>   * Regression testing in progress.
<bjf>  
<bjf>  * Maverick - 2.6.35-31.63
<bjf>   * On holiday
<bjf>  
<bjf>  * Natty - 2.6.38-13.53
<bjf>   * Regression testing in progress.
<bjf>  
<bjf>  * Oneiric - 3.0.0-14.23
<bjf>   * Prep'd and trying to reach -proposed
<bjf>  
<bjf> Current opened tracking bugs details:
<bjf>  * http://people.canonical.com/~kernel/reports/kernel-sru-workflow.html
<bjf>  
<bjf> For SRUs, SRU report is a good source of information:
<bjf>  * http://people.canonical.com/~kernel/reports/sru-report.html
<bjf>  
<bjf> Future stable cadence cycles:
<bjf>  * https://wiki.ubuntu.com/PrecisePangolin/ReleaseInterlock
<bjf> ..
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] Hardware Certification - Testing Pools (brendand)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Hardware Certification - Testing Pools (brendand)
<brendand> hi
<brendand> let me do this gradually
<brendand> As part of the SRU workflow the hardware certification team tests the -proposed kernel on as many certified systems as possible.
<brendand> As the number of certified systems for each release has grown, getting full coverage has become more and more difficult.
<brendand> To allow us to reduce the number of systems tested we have devised a system of 'testing pools'.
<brendand> This takes advantage of a system which stores details of the certified hardware including it constituent components to provide as broad a component coverage as possible.
<brendand> Initially the system ensured that at least one instance of each piece of hardware (as identified by PCI Id's) was present in the testing pool.
<brendand> This turned out not to fulfill the goal of the system since we still ended up with needing almost all the systems we had to provide full coverage (e.g. 165 systems certified for Natty gave a testing pool of 158)
<brendand> We made a first effort at reducing the size of the pools by considering only components of particular categories to be 'important'. A list of these was sent to the kernel-team mailing list.
<brendand> https://docs.google.com/a/canonical.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AphFraZYTghddElqTHl3NmZsWXVDYkMxcE5zX3EtR0E&hl=en_US#gid=0
<brendand> These give us testing pools of ~50 systems. However we are not happy yet with the coverage. We need feedback on which components need to be added in.
<brendand> The criteria used should be: how likely is it that a bug could occur in just a subset of the components of this category? A good example is the category 'Display Controller/VGA Compatible Controller' which we do cover already. We know for a fact that bugs will be specific to particular makes of graphics card. Same for CPUs ('Processor' category)
<brendand> We really need feedback on this
<brendand> ...
<jsalisbury> brendand, This will all be documented in the meeting minutes.  It would be good if you could also follow up with an email to the kernel-team mailing list.
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] Open Discussion or Questions? Raise your hand to be recognized (o/)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Open Discussion or Questions? Raise your hand to be recognized (o/)
<ogasawara> brendand: Do you have a revised list which has all the possible components you want us to review to consider adding back in?  Also, what # are you looking for to satify coverage?
<brendand> ogasawara - if you can access that link then all the ones marked 'x' are not considered at the moment
<brendand> we have no fixed number to reach
<tgardner> brendand, what is the max number of machines that you can cover ?
<brendand> tgardner - it seems to be about 90, realistically speaking. something like that.
<tgardner> ack
<brendand> i would prefer for now to take each component category on it's own merits'
<brendand> rather than considering how many extra systems it adds. we (the hwcert team) can worry about managing that
<brendand> i had a question to pose, as a bit of a thought experiment
<brendand> Could a bug affect only a subset of device of the category 'Bridge/PCI bridge'?
<tgardner> brendand, likely, but its more likely to be BIOS specific
<apw> if there is more than one different piece of h/w in any category it is possible to get different results from each
<tgardner> however, we have way fewer problems with PCI bridges.
<brendand> apw - yes, definitely *possible*.
<brendand> actually the point of that question was to illustrate the line of thinking that needs to be taken to evaluate this list of component categories
<brendand> between tgardner and apw that's the kind of critique of the list i'm looking for
<brendand> thanks
<jsalisbury> Any Open Discussion comments?
<brendand> one last thing. i'm not sure is that link public. anyone who can't get access please let me know and i'll sort something out
<jsalisbury> If no other comments, then going once
<ogasawara> brendand: how do you want feedback, maybe a "feedback" column, and we'll add X's to categories we think should be added back?
<brendand> ogasawara - i'm arranging for everyone to have edit rights and i'll add a feedback column
<ogasawara> brendand: let us know when it's ready for editing.  I'm sure a few of us can just a quick pass off and tick the ones we want.
<ogasawara> ..
<jsalisbury> brendand, any other comments?
<brendand> yeah, if any of the categories don't make sense to you, contact me about it
<brendand> i'll send the link to the kernel-team list
<jsalisbury> brendand, dot dot then ?
<brendand> ..
<jsalisbury> Any other open discussions or questions?
<jsalisbury> Last call
<jsalisbury> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Tue Dec 13 17:25:39 2011 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2011/ubuntu-meeting.2011-12-13-17.00.moin.txt
<cking> thanks jsalisbury
<kamal> thanks jsalisbury
<jsalisbury> Thanks, everyone
<IAmNotThatGuy> 6 minutes
#ubuntu-meeting 2011-12-14
<MrChrisDruif> Meeting?
<Unit193> 00:00
<IAmNotThatGuy> bodhi_zazen, Hi
<bodhi_zazen> Anyone here for the bt meeting ?
<bodhi_zazen> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Wed Dec 14 00:00:54 2011 UTC.  The chair is bodhi_zazen. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/AlanBell/mootbot.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
<IAmNotThatGuy> o/
<bodhi_zazen> Agenda - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BeginnersTeam/Meetings
 * Unit193 
<bodhi_zazen> [link]https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BeginnersTeam/Meetings
<bodhi_zazen> [LINK]https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BeginnersTeam/Meetings
<IAmNotThatGuy> All of you raise your hands o/
<MrChrisDruif> o/
<bodhi_zazen> [link] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BeginnersTeam/Meetings
<ashickur-noor> o/
<MrChrisDruif> It accepts quietly bodhi_zazen
<IAmNotThatGuy> bodhi_zazen, I believe it will set it and show in  logs
<bodhi_zazen> [TOPIC] Focus Groups
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Focus Groups
<bodhi_zazen> I think focus groups have been discussed before
<bodhi_zazen> any focus group leaders here ?
<IAmNotThatGuy> For the time being, No. duanedesign is working on the MOTU FG
<bodhi_zazen> any suggestions for focus groups ?
<IAmNotThatGuy> I am not seeing any other FGs active
<MrChrisDruif> IAmNotThatGuy; I might be able to get some activity back in the Wiki FG
<MrChrisDruif> But I'm not the Head of it
 * bodhi_zazen thinks too much time is spend discussion how FG will work and not enough time forming groups to accomplish specific tasks
<bodhi_zazen> How about if we start with one or two tasks , define the task, see who is interested ?
<ashickur-noor> +1
<IAmNotThatGuy> bodhi_zazen, it will be the Heads to design the FGs. We can find people whoo has time and nominate him/her for the FG and let them form a group and work on structuring
<JackyAlcine> o/
<bodhi_zazen> speak up JackyAlcine
<MrChrisDruif> I think he just said he was here ;-)
<bodhi_zazen> I would make the FG very task specific
<JackyAlcine> +1 to bodhi_zazen's idea.
<JackyAlcine> I've been interested in the Dev FG for a while, I don't have the time to run it, but I'd love to be active in it.
<bodhi_zazen> Any additional suggestions for the focus groups ?
<IAmNotThatGuy> Nope
<MrChrisDruif> Assigning tasks like updating a certain section on the wiki (for Wiki FG of course)
<bodhi_zazen> I think they sort of die off because everyone gets excited about a topic, like development or packaging, without any tasks , so excitement dies out
<JackyAlcine> Perhaps passing bitesize bugs to the Dev FG.
<JackyAlcine> bodhi_zazen: +1
<bodhi_zazen> learning to file a bug report -> triage bug reports ?
<JackyAlcine> and packaging's a world of hurt in itself :P
<IAmNotThatGuy> or we have many project ideas, where we can pull the new comers and work on
<bodhi_zazen> we could do a classroom session on either packaging or bug reports
<IAmNotThatGuy> Noted
<ashickur-noor> bodhi_zazen: +1
<JackyAlcine> IAmNotThatGuy: working on a project from scratch is hard work.
<bodhi_zazen> [idea] can the people interested in a focus group identify a task or classroom session - update the wiki page - and engage the team for assistance ?
<Unit193> Do current tasks not count?
<IAmNotThatGuy> I think it can be done
<bodhi_zazen> Other suggestions ?
<IAmNotThatGuy> JackyAlcine, But it is the best way to learn both team work and complete development. ;]
<bodhi_zazen> [topic] Team participation
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Team participation
<coalwater> whats the question :D
<bodhi_zazen> As a general reminder to the team, our goal is to help new users, new to ubuntu (beginners) and new to the ubuntu community
<bodhi_zazen> Please help out on IRC, forums, askubuntu ...
<JackyAlcine> True.
<ashickur-noor> Ya
<bodhi_zazen> Invite people to the team to participate, if they are lost and need direction
 * MrChrisDruif has lost interest in helping on the main help channels. Also pretty busy on other parts in the community
<ashickur-noor> I am thinking of it, to invite people
<MrChrisDruif> But I'm still answering questions when they show up on the team channel
<MrChrisDruif> Or anywhere else for that matter
<IAmNotThatGuy> to be honest, The main thing missing is that we have people around, but none stepping forward to blast google and help the beginner. Thats the way I learnt about Ubuntu through the community
<ashickur-noor> Me too
<IAmNotThatGuy> Most of the time, what people think is that they don't know the answer and it is better to let someone help. But before coming to a decision, Just search in the net and see whether you can help. ;]
<MrChrisDruif> Like I said, I'm pretty preoccupied with being active in the community myself...
<IAmNotThatGuy> MrChrisDruif, Gotcha
<MrChrisDruif> I know your not pointing any fingers around, but still...=]
<JackyAlcine> I do my best whenever I think I can help. :$
<bodhi_zazen> All good ideas
<ashickur-noor> :-)  I also do it, when ever anybody need help I try my best
<IAmNotThatGuy> So, the main point to remember from now is, "UBT's goal is to support the Beginners seeking help". So, try engaging some time in the support channel =]
<bodhi_zazen> [idea] Try to be more proactive, even if it is for 10 minutes, do something and solicit team participation ;)
<IAmNotThatGuy> bodhi_zazen, and I am not sure whether people idling in #ubuntu-beginners are active in IRC. I see many nick idling for years without talking a word
<bodhi_zazen> such is irc
<IAmNotThatGuy> ;P
<ashickur-noor> IRC
<ashickur-noor> what is IRC?
<coalwater> this is
<bodhi_zazen> [topic] Open floor
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Open floor
<ashickur-noor> this is a common talk in my local community
<coalwater> what we are talking through is irc ashickur-noor
<bodhi_zazen> any other suggestions / comments / agenda items ?
<ashickur-noor> coalwater: I know that
<ashickur-noor> I am talking about my local community, who only know FB
<ashickur-noor> :-D
<ashickur-noor> Which makes me mad some times
<bodhi_zazen> FluxBox ?
<bodhi_zazen> FramBuffer
<bodhi_zazen> The team is what you all make of it
<IAmNotThatGuy> bodhi_zazen, Regarding FG, for the time being, lets go with duanedesign With MOTU and Wiki with myself and MrChrisDruif. If people comes forward for taking up the other groups, then we can officially bring them in. What do you think?
<bodhi_zazen> Sounds good so long as the FG have tasks and spam -team looking for support
<IAmNotThatGuy> Meanwhile, I will discuss with jacky and you in setting up the base for -dev team
<bodhi_zazen> great
<ashickur-noor> great
<bodhi_zazen> Other agenda items questions ?
<coalwater> you're gonna create a -dev team?
<MrChrisDruif> I had one, but forgot it later =]
<IAmNotThatGuy> coalwater, Set a platform for -dev team. (We already have one ;P)
<coalwater> i know, thats why i was a little confused
<coalwater> so um whats this platform
<IAmNotThatGuy> bodhi_zazen, Will we be setting up a separate membership for each FG?
<bodhi_zazen> Not unless the FG are active
<IAmNotThatGuy> coalwater, Will come back to you in a minf =]
<IAmNotThatGuy> okay
<bodhi_zazen> Once they are active, FG lead can decide
<bodhi_zazen> I suggest open team, informal membership
<bodhi_zazen> people spend too much time with membership, not enough time doing, and then membership becomes a barrior
<IAmNotThatGuy> coalwater, We have a dev team, without knowing what we have to work with. So, we are planning to find and list projects and places to find bug reports so that BT dev team can work on it and help them learn and contribute =]
<coalwater> nice
<IAmNotThatGuy> +1 bodhi_zazen
<ashickur-noor> IAmNotThatGuy: +1
<IAmNotThatGuy> Any other topics?
<IAmNotThatGuy> Unit193, did we miss anything?
<bodhi_zazen> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Wed Dec 14 00:32:14 2011 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2011/ubuntu-meeting.2011-12-14-00.00.moin.txt
<bodhi_zazen> Go forth and activate
<IAmNotThatGuy> unimix, Update the channel with the next meeting, MrChrisDruif clear the BeginnersTeam/Meetings page and post the minutes of meeting. Thank you all for coming :)
<IAmNotThatGuy> err Unit193 *
<IAmNotThatGuy> Sure thing bodhi_zazen =]
<MrChrisDruif> Where did I sign up for that? =P
<unimix> IAmNotThatGuy, no problem :)
<ashickur-noor> bodhi_zazen:  I am not sure about FG
<ashickur-noor> what is focus group?
<bodhi_zazen> a group of people interested in accomplishing a task
<bodhi_zazen> the task is their focus of effort
<ashickur-noor> Interesting
<ashickur-noor> How they work?
<IAmNotThatGuy> MrChrisDruif, We recruited you before 2 meetings I guess ;P
<MrChrisDruif> For 2 meetings? I think it can be traced back to the log
<ashickur-noor> R they belongs to UBT?
<bodhi_zazen> they work by people being active to define and accomplish a task , it is sort of a circular argument ashickur-noor
<IAmNotThatGuy> MrChrisDruif, hahaha. But MoM is for you
<s-fox> o/
<MrChrisDruif> MoM?
<IAmNotThatGuy> Hello s-fox. Bodhi ended the meeting :[
<MrChrisDruif> \o
<IAmNotThatGuy> MrChrisDruif, Minutes of meeting
<ashickur-noor> Need to learn more about FG
<MrChrisDruif> Haha, it's alright ;-)
<ashickur-noor> BTW how r u everyone?
<MrChrisDruif> ashickur-noor; did you just got invited for an other channel?
<ashickur-noor> nope
<ashickur-noor> I attended the last meeting
<MrChrisDruif> Alright, try this "/join #ubuntu-beginners-team"
<bodhi_zazen> 'lo s-fox
<ashickur-noor> From then I am regular in UB and UBT
<ashickur-noor> I need some suggestion
<ashickur-noor> my local fellow Ubuntu users don't know how to communicate in the community
<ashickur-noor> How I can teach them about it?
<MrChrisDruif> ashickur-noor; might I suggest we continue this in #ubuntu-beginners-team ?
<bodhi_zazen> ashickur-noor: should probably move the discussion to #ubuntu-beginners-team
<MrChrisDruif> Haha
<IAmNotThatGuy> Shall we move to #ubuntu-beginners-team and continue the discussion ashickur-noor and MrChrisDruif ?
 * MrChrisDruif is off
<ashickur-noor> I have no problem
<laoshi> morn
<laoshi> sry. wrong channel
 * slangasek waves
 * stgraber waves
<jodh> o/
<slangasek> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Wed Dec 14 16:04:06 2011 UTC.  The chair is slangasek. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/AlanBell/mootbot.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
<slangasek> [TOPIC] Lightning round
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Lightning round
<slangasek> $ echo $(shuf -e cjwatson barry doko stgraber jodh ev bdmurray slangasek)
<slangasek> cjwatson barry ev slangasek bdmurray doko stgraber jodh
<slangasek> ev and doko are out, so this should be quick :)
<slangasek> cjwatson:
<cjwatson> Some ubiquity fixes: DPKG_UNTRANSLATED_MESSAGES=1 as requested by bdmurray; armhf support; fix for next button to say "Install Now" more reliably when it's supposed to (bug 766265).
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 766265 in ubiquity (Ubuntu Precise) "Ubiquity proceeds to use free space without warning" [High,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/766265
<slangasek> (I'll fill in doko's status for him)
<cjwatson> Added uninstallable output for -updates suites (http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-archive/testing/lucid-updates_probs.html et al).
<cjwatson> Serious cleanup so I actually have some free space on my SSD ...
<cjwatson> Submitted several more Launchpad branches for review (bug 551510, bug 118227, bug 240965, bug 383044).  This is mostly because it's clear that there's no Launchpad development resource for a lot of these things and they aren't going to get fixed otherwise; in particular it's been a thorn in my side for some time that installer images aren't signed.
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 551510 in Launchpad itself "Port to new python-apt API" [Low,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/551510
<cjwatson> Working on getting germinate output generated directly from the database (for foundations-p-image-build-pipeline).  Partly done but I need to rewrite mvo's Supported extra-overrides handling to work with it.  Some germinate fixes to support this.
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 118227 in Launchpad itself "main/debian-installer missing from Release files" [Low,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/118227
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 240965 in Launchpad itself "publisher doesn't deal with pockets becoming empty" [Low,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/240965
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 383044 in Launchpad itself "No GPG signatures for nonstandard installers" [Low,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/383044
<cjwatson> Converted libproxy to multiarch.
<cjwatson> Started on investigating bug 709363.  Hopefully I'll have more luck than previously.
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 709363 in ubiquity (Ubuntu Precise) "swap partition disappeared during installation" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/709363
<cjwatson> ..
<barry> bug 901840 (cython ftbfs); python 3 porting blog post; udd meeting w/poolie; python-dbus porting - submitted upstream, some parts are already being committed to trunk; will be committing more atomic changes to personal git branch and working with upstream on each smaller change.  done.
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 901840 in cython (Ubuntu) "FTBFS due to test failures" [Undecided,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/901840
 * ScottK gives a big +1 on the python3 porting post.
<slangasek> I just got a chance to read that yesterday... good stuff
<barry> ScottK: thanks!  been some good comments there too
<barry> thanks
<slangasek>  * sync cricket to unblock IS
<slangasek>  * progress on multiarch: gstreamer stack is nearly done now!  maybe done by the end of the year
<slangasek>  * following up on bootcharts:  trying to figure out why there's still a lot of noise in the numbers (10% variance between two successive runs?)
<slangasek>  * rally planning
<slangasek>  * working with other teams regarding the vulnerable sun-java6 packages that we need to get rid of
<slangasek>  * merging armhf eglibc support into Debian for infinity
<slangasek> (done)
<bdmurray> Changed arsenal reporter light-style.css to use launchpad's status and importance coloring
<bdmurray> Repushed arsenal's cbd since it was lost or over written
<bdmurray> Updated bug bot to tag ubiquity bug reports ubiquity-upgrade
<bdmurray> Investigation into ubiquity bugs not matching bug patterns / discovery of bug 901381
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 901381 in ubiquity (Ubuntu) "excepthook in gtk_ui.py should write a crash report instead of calling ubuntu-bug" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/901381
<bdmurray> modification to bug bot to not mention sponsors when commenting on reviewer bugs
<bdmurray> review of bug reports for the defect analyst bug dashboard
<bdmurray> work on bug pattern consolidation job on cranberry
<bdmurray> working with defect analysts regarding a bug workflow diagram
<bdmurray> working with d3 (javascript graphing) and recent package bugs
<bdmurray> created a team-recently-(triaged|confirmed) bug report
<bdmurray>  done
<slangasek> (doko)
<slangasek> - armhf bootstrap, fixing some build failures
<slangasek> - look for compiler ICE's in the armhf builds, reproduce and file gcc reports
<slangasek> - llvm/clang/dragonegg updates
<slangasek> - staring at clang, started to fix the default settings for armel and armhf.
<slangasek> - python-central demotion, mostly finished
<slangasek> - GCC and binutils updates
<slangasek> - syncs and merges
<slangasek> - gnat build for armhf, still in progress
<slangasek> (done)
<stgraber> - Testing tracker
<stgraber>  - Production instance upgraded on Thursday!
<stgraber>  - Spent part of Friday fighting bugs (wrong version of PostgreSQL and squid breaking the API)
<stgraber> - Flavours
<stgraber>  - Daily automated testing is now running and posting the results to the tracker (showing a week's history on the tracker)
<stgraber> - Networking
<stgraber>  - New ifenslave has been uploaded, followed by another upload to fix bridging (bug 889423)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 889423 in ifenslave-2.6 (Ubuntu) "802.3ad bonding not configured correctly" [Undecided,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/889423
<stgraber>  - Started to look at SRUing ifenslave, will need some discussion with the SRU team as the change are quite extensive
<stgraber>  - Started looking at eventifying the vlan package, still need to test and upload
<stgraber>  - Posted review of dnsmasq and discussed with security team about turning it on by default
<stgraber>  - Wrote patches to Network Manager to start dnsmasq with the right parameters (bug 903854)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 903854 in network-manager (Ubuntu) "Change default dnsmasq flags to not include --strict-order and disable caching" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/903854
<stgraber> - Containers
<stgraber>  - Sent patch to James to make mountall work in a container without the need for our current lxcguest upstart jobs
<stgraber> - Installer
<stgraber>  - Going through casper bugs, especially these with patches attached, reviewing/merging and cleaning up some of the code
<stgraber> - TPM
<stgraber>  - Pushed opencryptoki bugfix as an SRU to lucid, maverick and natty (bug 645576)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 645576 in opencryptoki (Ubuntu Natty) "TPM token fails to reinitialize properly on reload" [Undecided,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/645576
<stgraber> - TODO (pretty much unchanged since last week)
<stgraber>  - Look at the new ifupdown in Debian (beta2), isolate the fix for bug 876829 and SRU to Oneiric
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 876829 in ifupdown (Ubuntu Precise) "Oneiric's ifupdown breaks ip aliases" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/876829
<stgraber>  - Start poking at resolvconf
<stgraber>  - Talk with cyphermox now that he's out of +1 :) (IPv6, complex networking in NM, dnsmasq, VPN stuff, ...)
<stgraber>  - Still need to get my iSCSI test setup online again and then look at the merge...
<stgraber> (done)
<jodh> Released Upstart 1.4. Working on merge of lp:upstart into Ubuntu (icky:
<jodh> http://paste.ubuntu.com/769005/ - thanks to cjwatson for guidance!).
<jodh> Currently we have a failing test which appears to be caused by the
<jodh> builds chroot environment. Lots of cookbook updates (prolly release
<jodh> later today). Plan: Finish Upstart merge and work on plymouth bug 553745
<jodh> and bug 849414). My last day before Christmas is Friday.
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 553745 in plymouth (Ubuntu Maverick) "plymouthd crashed with SIGSEGV in ply_event_loop_process_pending_events()" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/553745
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 849414 in plymouth (Ubuntu Precise) "plymouthd crashed with SIGSEGV in ply_event_loop_process_pending_events()" [High,Incomplete] https://launchpad.net/bugs/849414
<jodh> â
<slangasek> thanks all
<slangasek> any questions re: statuseses?
<slangasek> [TOPIC] Bugs
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Bugs
<slangasek> bdmurray: anything new bubbling up this week?
<bdmurray> slangasek: no not really
<slangasek> ok
<bdmurray> actually bug 818177 has seen some recent activity
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 818177 in udev (Ubuntu Precise) "boot failures because 'udevadm exit' times out while udevd waits for an already-dead thread" [High,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/818177
<besmirgogu> Hi Everybody!!
<slangasek> bdmurray: I think those comments are misdirected and I'm not sure they're worth following up on individually; we know that we have two other bugs related to udev races still, apw is working on one (bnx2 firmware) and hallyn is working on the other (lvm2) and waiting for me to review/merge
<bdmurray> slangasek: okay, that makes sense
<cjwatson> Would anyone like to attack bug 545790?  It's on rls-p-tracking, and it has a relatively clear explanation from mdz; it should be a matter of saving errno until it comes time to display it
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 545790 in dpkg (Ubuntu) "package PACKAGE failed to install/upgrade: error writing to '<standard output>': Success" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/545790
<slangasek> <crickets>
<slangasek> :)
<slangasek> well, I'll mark that one 'triaged' at least :)
 * jodh wonders what a "crashed recycle bin" is...?
<slangasek> heh
<jodh> don't recycle whilst driving I say!
<slangasek> ok, well, that one remains on the list of bugs for us to tackle this cycle then
<slangasek> [TOPIC] AOB
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: AOB
<slangasek> anything else?
<cjwatson> or I'll take it, I was just hoping somebody else would :)
<slangasek> I think everyone else's queue is also full at the moment :)
<slangasek> btw, if anyone has outstanding expenses for the year, remember that it's a good idea to do those before you go on end-of-year holidays :)
<slangasek> and next week will be the last meeting of the year... for whoever's still around by that point
<slangasek> :)
<barry> :)
<slangasek> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Wed Dec 14 16:27:03 2011 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2011/ubuntu-meeting.2011-12-14-16.04.moin.txt
<slangasek> that's all, folks
<slangasek> thanks!
<jodh> thanks!
<barry> thanks!
<stgraber> thanks!
<gema> hi everyone, we are about to start the QA Meeting
<gema> #startmeeting QA Meeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Wed Dec 14 16:59:59 2011 UTC.  The chair is gema. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/AlanBell/mootbot.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | QA Meeting Meeting | Current topic:
<gema> hello, can you raise your hand if you are present and reading ?
 * alourie preps his cut of tea
<roignac> o/
<alourie> o/
<nuclearbob> 0/
<nuclearbob> er
 * alourie s/cut/cup
<nuclearbob> o/
<kalosaurusrex> o/ (but I might be afk for a bit in a min)
<gema> kalosaurusrex: no probs
<phillw> o/
<gema> excellent, so let's get started
<gema> #topic Previous Actions
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | QA Meeting Meeting | Current topic:  Previous Actions
<gema> so we had patrickmw with one action from last week
<besmirgogu> hi new to the meeting
<gema> he told me he couldn't make it today, so we'll keep the action for next week
<gema> hi besmirgogu , welcome!
<gema> #action patrickmw to publish a list of launchpad projects that conform our automated testing in jenkins
<besmirgogu> hi everybody
<meetingology> ACTION: patrickmw to publish a list of launchpad projects that conform our automated testing in jenkins
<gema> #topic Blueprints Update Precise
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | QA Meeting Meeting | Current topic:  Blueprints Update Precise
<alourie> o/
<gema> alourie: go for it
<alourie> regarding previous actions
<brendand> o/
<gema> yes, alourie
<alourie> how about posting smoke test cases that we run?
<gema> alourie: do you mean results?
<alourie> was it posted somewhere?
<alourie> no, the tests
<gema> give me a sec
<roignac> i guess, patrickmw should present the list of launchpad project, and there we can get the code for unittests
<alourie> ah
<roignac> s/project/projects
<alourie> ok, so I'll get back to this later then
<alourie> ..
<gema> alourie, roignac , this is the code that runs, as far as I know: https://launchpad.net/ubuntu-server-iso-testing
<gema> I am in the process of reviewing it and trying to make some sense of the testing we are running
<gema> I don't believe we have test case descriptions yet
<gema> but we will
<alourie> gema: looks like it
<alourie> ok, great, I'll look at it later
<gema> alourie: where?
<gema> ok
<gema> brendand: ?
<brendand> can you clarify what it means 'conform our automated testing'?
<brendand> what does the package need to have?
<gema> brendand: anything that we run and publish results on jenkins
<brendand> so packages with automated tests?
<gema> brendand: no, test cases that we are running automatically in jenkins
<gema> is the list patrickmw is putting together
<brendand> gema - ok, i think i understand now
<gema> brendand: I am not clear what to expect myself either, so let's keep an open mind
<gema> moving on to the blueprints themselves then
<gema> #subtopic https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/other-p-builds-smoke-testing
<gema> We have created a new dashboard by installing some jenkins plugins, but it is not 100% there yet. We are looking into aggregating results to show all the results for each ISO together and to show build number
<gema> Link: https://jenkins.qa.ubuntu.com/view/Precise%20ISO%20Testing%20Dashboard/view/Daily/
<gema> any question?
<alourie> looks great
<alourie> greenish :-)
<gema> alourie: that's wrong, today we had a failure in the lab and nothing run
<gema> it should be all red
<alourie> ha!
<gema> we are working on it x)
<alourie> that's funny
<gema> yep
<alourie> so
<alourie> I'm thinking
<alourie> is it possible to have, like, a session on Jenkins?
<alourie> to realize better what it is and what it isn't?
<alourie> and how do things work ther?
<alourie> e
<gema> what do you mean a session on jenkins?
<alourie> ..
<gema> ahh, like a training session?
<alourie> yes
<gema> indeed, hggdh has been putting a wiki together, I can ask him
<alourie> even if it take 15 minutes
<gema> #action gema to talk to hggdh about some jenkins training for the community
<meetingology> ACTION: gema to talk to hggdh about some jenkins training for the community
<alourie> great, appreciate it
<gema> no prob
<gema> moving on then
<gema> #subtopic #subtopic https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/other-p-qa-boot-speed-testing
<gema> no update today, since patrick is not here, but he is actively working on this
<gema> #subtopic https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/other-p-qa-kernel-sru
<gema> sconklin is not around this week, but he told me he didn't have much to report
<gema> #subtopic https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/other-p-qa-standard-sru-testing
<gema> jibel didn't have anything to report either
 * gema has been doing some questioning before the meeting :D
<jibel> this blueprint is not started yet
<gema> ah, jibel you are there
<gema> ok
<jibel> hi o/
<gema> so maybe I should move it to the end of the list
<gema> #action gema to move the standard sru testing blueprint to the end
<meetingology> ACTION: gema to move the standard sru testing blueprint to the end
<gema> #subtopic https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/other-p-qa-test-case-management-tool
<jibel> I'll start it after https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/foundations-p-upload-intermediary
<gema> yes?
<jibel> because we'll use the same tool to test the packages
<gema> ok, sounds good
<gema> so regarding case conductor
<gema> We've gathered the requirements for case conductor and sent them to the Mozilla QA team. Please, see my last email to the Case Conductor thread in the list for details
<alourie> o/
<gema> yes, alourie
<alourie> will you have an official "meeting" with Mozilla folks?
<gema> alourie: I am not sure, I asked them at the bottom of the email how they wanted to proceed
<gema> alourie: I will let you know if it happens, it can be open to more people than just me
<alourie> ok
<gema> but I sent the email to the Project Manager because I had the original discussion with him
<gema> to advice on how to proceed
<gema> ok, moving on then
<gema> #subtopic https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/other-p-qa-backlog
<gema> any updates on wikis or stuff like that?
<roignac> o/
<alourie> o/
<gema> roignac: ?
<roignac> we have started updating the testcases
<roignac> some for nautilus and desktopwhole are under review
<gema> roignac: sounds excellent, you could send an email to the list asking for feedback on those
<roignac> so we need a qualified review for them in docs.google.com shpreadsheet
<roignac> ok, will do
<gema> yep, I will set some time aside tomorrow for the review
<gema> alourie: ?
<alourie> ok, so I wrote a short guide for rewriting test cases
<alourie> I'd love some feedback for that
<gema> you sent the link to the list, didn't you?
<alourie> yes
<alourie> additionally, I started rewriting wiki, so thanks gema for comments
<roignac> alourie, I've been using it, seems rather useful, thanks
<alourie> I'd like to have more feedback for wiki as well!
<gema> ok, it may be good if you asked for the feedback on a more formal email
<alourie> but overall, I see it progressing well
<alourie> gema: I have
<gema> alourie: it may help if you say this is the guide , and I would like to have feedback by the end of this week or so
<alourie> or, rather, you mean more formal that the one I sent?
<gema> sothat people know when is the deadline
<gema> yep
<gema> a formal review request
<alourie> ah
<alourie> ok
<gema> so that fromt he topic of the email, it sounds like there's work to do
 * alourie wrotes himself to set deadlines
<gema> if you know what I mean
<alourie> yes, sure
<gema> it is just an orientation, but tends to give people a sense of urgency :)
<alourie> indeed :-)
<gema> ok, I will send you feedback on that tomorrow too
<alourie> great, thank you
<gema> hggdh: are you around?
<alourie> so, I will continue working on these items with mail list, it feel it is better for brainstorming and pushing ideas back and forth
<gema> alourie: agreed
<alourie> additionally, I may write a general guide for writing test cases
<alourie> I think we need something like that
<gema> I thought that is what you wrote on that wiki
<alourie> that wiki is more "rewriting" oriented, not a generic one
<gema> ahh, ok
<gema> sounds good then
<alourie> it could be a basis for the generic document
<gema> ok, excellent
<alourie> I'm done
<alourie> ..
<gema> so, on behalf of hggdh , this is the jenkins documentation he has written:
<gema> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/QATeam/AutomatedTesting/UnderstandingJenkinsResults
<brendand> o/
<gema> let us know on the list if there's anything that you don't understand or so
<gema> brendand: ?
<brendand> i wanted to comment on the test cases re-write a bit
<gema> ok, go for it, I was done with jenkins anyway :)
<brendand> should we be taking the opportunity now to split test cases out where they need to be?
<gema> I think so
<brendand> e.g. 'Check that user can create files and folders, move files to folders and delete files and folders to Trash'
<brendand> is not a test case
<gema> yes, splitting it would give us better understanding of problems, when there is one
<roignac> o/
<gema> and more realistic results
<brendand> roignac - btw, i'm not pointing the finger at you
<gema> go for it roignac
<gema> speak freely guys, we are discussing a topic :)
<roignac> I completely agree with brendand
<roignac> as testcases should be rewritten
<roignac> so I guess, we should have a plan for this
<gema> what kind of plan, roignac ?
<roignac> a list features, at least, like: Nautilus: 1) Cover folder creation, 2)File creation etc.
<brendand> i think we should say here (and on the mailing list) that you shouldn't shy away from re-working test cases where they don't work
<roignac> also, we would need an updated list of application, included in base Ubuntu installation
<roignac> as writing testcases for Banshee should get less priority than Rhythmbox, as rhythmbox is default one
<gema> roignac: I believe kalosaurusrex is working on that
<roignac> gema, great, that would be very useful
<brendand> roignac - if test cases are there for an application which is not in ubuntu now then they should be removed or deprecated i guess
<alourie> o/
<gema> go for it, alourie
<brendand> roignac - but writing new ones is outside scope for now mayeb
<alourie> I want to get focus a little bit here
<alourie> I'd love to have all test cases rewritten
<alourie> but (putting the "effort coordinator hat"), I think we need to handle ISO testing cases first
<alourie> so that for the next alpha/beta, or when Constructor is ready - we have them done
<roignac> i'd love to see that as a wiki page - default application and their features
<alourie> or, at least, some part of them
<roignac> alourie: agree, ISO testcases should get the highest priority
<phillw> +1
<alourie> so we would concentrate on them
<gema> yes, sounds reasonable
<alourie> at least for the starters..
<alourie> so I can volunteer myself picking a set of Images to rewrite
<gema> yep, we could also update the wiki once the test cases are reviewed, so that people can use them before case conductor is online
<alourie> yes
<alourie> I'll just pick a couple from each category we have now
<gema> ok
<roignac> i've already rewritten desktopwhole testcase - and I'd love to get some feedback on it
<gema> indeed, we'll give you feedback
<roignac> as it might be a good example and a template for installation cases
<roignac> thanks!
<gema> roignac: you may want to have a look at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/QATeam/AutomatedTesting?action=AttachFile&do=get&target=Test+analysis+and+specification+for+Ubiquity.pdf
<gema> in case it gives you any idea
<gema> I put this together last cycle but didn't get the chance to extract any test cases from there
<gema> because we had more pressing matters at hand
<gema> it may help with the rewriting in some cases, but I don't expect us to run all of them manually
<gema> the idea is automating them in the long run
<roignac> gema, thanks, would be useful
<gema> any feedback on it also welcome
<gema> it's still under review
<roignac> a basic test is already automated btw, so others will follow, i'm sure
<gema> yes
<gema> ok, so moving on to next topic unless someone has anything else
<gema> #subtopic https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/other-p-qa-qa-regression-testing
<gema> nuclearbob: ?
<nuclearbob> I've got an autotest package ready for the new lab hardware
<nuclearbob> I'm determining whether we want the qrt tests as another package, or whether just a tarball is fine
<nuclearbob> I've been running them on some daily builds and having good luck so far
<nuclearbob> ..
<gema> good thanks, any questions?
<gema> moving on then
<gema> #subtopic https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/other-p-qa-automated-test-submissions
<gema> again, nothing from patrick today
<gema> #subtopic https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/other-p-qa-metrics
<gema> I have been doing some code coverage trialling and discovered how to use gcov and lcov. As it happens, the development teams are starting to make changes to their makefiles to enable coverage as well
<gema> I need to talk to the tech lead coordinating that to be able to make it happen. I will probably do that in January during our gathering in Europe
<gema> #subtopic Community Tasks - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/QATeam/TasksPrecise
<gema> Anything to report on any of the tasks we are working on that we haven't covered yet?
<gema> ok, moving on then
<gema> #topic Update Lubuntu
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | QA Meeting Meeting | Current topic:  Update Lubuntu
<gema> phillw: ?
<phillw> Hi, things are going okay - with the slight exception that someone just noticed that Chromium hasn't been building since 25th November last year.
<gema> ok, we can get the update later if he comes around
<gema> ahh, you were writing, sorry
<phillw> The alpha seems stable enough
<gema> phillw: so noone has been using chromium or were they using an outdated version?
<phillw> as far as I understand there is currently no maintainer for Chromium, so I'm not sure what will happen.
<gema> ok
<gema> anything else? questions?
 * alourie|web has a huge lag
<gema> #topic Update Xubuntu
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | QA Meeting Meeting | Current topic:  Update Xubuntu
<besmirgogu> I would have many questions
<besmirgogu> :)
<besmirgogu> since i am new
<besmirgogu> to all this
<gema> besmirgogu: we have 14 mins, shoot
<besmirgogu> how do i start getting involved
<besmirgogu> preferably testing releases
<gema> by subscribing to the ubuntu-qa list
<gema> and saying what you know how to do and what you'd like to do
<besmirgogu> ok
<gema> someone will guide you in the right direction
<besmirgogu> ok thanks
<alourie|web> besmirgogu: and bring friends
<gema> we are in between releases now, so you have some time to learn how to do the testing before Alpha 2
<besmirgogu> I will try
<besmirgogu> that is great news for me
<gema> in between milestones, I mean
<besmirgogu> i really want to help
<gema> excellent, thanks a lot!
<alourie|web> besmirgogu: excellent, thanks
<gema> I have to move on now, since charlie doesn't seem to be around
<gema> and we need to wrap up the meeting
<gema> #topic Update Ubuntu
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | QA Meeting Meeting | Current topic:  Update Ubuntu
<gema> jibel: do you have anything to say here?
<gema> ok, so moving on then
<gema> #topic Other Topics
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | QA Meeting Meeting | Current topic:  Other Topics
<gema> anything else?
<gema> #topic Chairing, anyone?
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | QA Meeting Meeting | Current topic:  Chairing, anyone?
<gema> ok, so .. does anyone want to chair next week's meeting?
<alourie|web> I just wanted to say, amazing week, happy to be part of the team
 * gema forgot to ask last week
<phillw> As I said, at a pinch I will do so if there are no other volunteers
<gema> alourie|web: me too, it is really exciting times
<alourie|web> I don't have stable schedule, so I won't volunteer for now
<gema> phillw: I can do it too, I am around next week, I thought it'd be fair to offer it if someone wants to do it
<gema> :)
<gema> I think we will have a week off for Xmas unless everyone plans to be around
<phillw> I'll keep my powder dry, in that case :)
<gema> cool, so I will do it next week!
<alourie|web> yea!
<gema> thanks everyone for your time
<gema> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Wed Dec 14 17:50:48 2011 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2011/ubuntu-meeting.2011-12-14-16.59.moin.txt
<phillw> gema: thanks for chairing
<gema> no problem
<alourie|web> thanks gema, all
<roignac> gema, all: thanks a lot =)
<besmirgogu> thank you all
<gema> have a good night everyone, I am going to slowly crawl away from the computer :)
<phillw> tc - i have another meeting in 2 hours!
 * bdmurray waves
 * jsalisbury o/
<bdmurray> #start-meeting
<bdmurray> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Wed Dec 14 18:03:32 2011 UTC.  The chair is bdmurray. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/AlanBell/mootbot.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
<bdmurray> Hi, its time for the weekly "Bugs" meeting
<bdmurray> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BugSquad/Meetings
<bdmurray> #topic Previous Actions
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Previous Actions
<bdmurray> ACTION: bdmurray update the topic in #ubuntu-bugs regarding meetings: DONE
<bdmurray> ACTION: bdmurray send bugs meeting announcement before the next meeting - that didn't get done
<bdmurray> #topic Engineering Team Bug Status
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Engineering Team Bug Status
<jsalisbury> From the kernel side, no specific bug to report.  However, a report on new kernel bugs can be found at:
<jsalisbury> [LINK] http://people.canonical.com/~kernel/reports/kt-meeting.txt
<bdmurray> I saw that bug 894768 is fixed which is great
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 894768 in linux (Ubuntu Precise) "Installation randomly fails with: File "/usr/lib/ubiquity/ubiquity/install_misc.py", line 621, in copy_file targetfh.write(buf) IOError: [Errno 22] Invalid argument " [High,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/894768
<jsalisbury> yes that was an important bug that was found during iso-testing
<bdmurray> bug 850264 is still being worked on
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 850264 in apt (Ubuntu Precise) "given a foreign architecture of i386 on amd64 machine, and an outdated libc, apt tries to remove libc-bin" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/850264
<bdmurray> I've written a bug pattern for that but it only matches english error messages
<bdmurray> so there may be some more duplicates hiding
<bdmurray> pedro_: do you have anything?
<pedro_> m nope nothing on the top of my head, i've been doing cleanup in some products like rhythmbox brasero, quite a lot of unattended bugs there
<bdmurray> pedro_: oh, that reminds me of bug 737598
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 737598 in rhythmbox (Ubuntu) "apport package hook should not be run if it is a crash" [Medium,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/737598
<bdmurray> oh, that was really a question in the last comment.
<bdmurray> pedro_: I actually don't see a package hook for rhythmbox.  Do you know what happened?
<bdmurray> [ACTION] bdmurray find out where the rhythmbox apport hook went
<meetingology> ACTION: bdmurray find out where the rhythmbox apport hook went
<bdmurray> #topic Bug Escalations
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Bug Escalations
<bdmurray> Are there any bugs that should be brought to our attention?
<bdmurray> I'd like this be a time when community members can bring up bugs that are important and aren't seeing progress being made.
<bil21al> bdmurray we dont have the empathy triager now days the bugs are more i am triaging them but i am not so experience but i try my best i am in touch with kenvandine and cassidy those days for this purpose
<bdmurray> bil21al: as you learn things it would be great if you could document them
<bdmurray> that way everyone can learn how to help
<bil21al> yes but here is a problem i cant set the importance of bug  can you say some one of bug control to do so give empathy 1 hour in a day
<bdmurray> bil21al: have you asked for someone to set the importance in #ubuntu-bugs.  usually if you say I think bug xyz should be high people will help you out
<bdmurray> bil21al: alternatively if you email the mailing list with a list of bugs and importances I'm sure it'd be acted on
<bdmurray> bil21al: How does that sound?
<bil21al> ok
<bdmurray> great
<bil21al> i will ask some one in our channel.at bug squard
<bdmurray> #topic Other Topics
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Other Topics
<bdmurray> Is there anything else to discuss?
<bdmurray> Who'll be around for next week's meeting?
<bdmurray> I will ;-)
<bil21al> u are the head  u should be :)
<bdmurray> okay, thanks everyone
<bdmurray> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Wed Dec 14 18:29:15 2011 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2011/ubuntu-meeting.2011-12-14-18.03.moin.txt
<kamusin> thanks to you guys :)
<bil21al> bdmuarry: thanks for encouraging me
 * gilir takes a seat
<jmarsden|work> o/
<Yorvyk> 0/
 * phillw waits for #startmeeting :)
<gilir> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Wed Dec 14 20:03:27 2011 UTC.  The chair is gilir. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/AlanBell/mootbot.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
<gilir> hi everyones :)
<david_j_r> `Â°    (= back row)
<StephenSmally> gilir: Hi, hope i'm not late
<gilir> for the record, the agenda is still at this page : https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Lubuntu/Meetings/20111130
<michaelrawson> hi!
<kbhaskar> hello :)
<StephenSmally> hi michael
<gilir> hum no, here : https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Lubuntu/IRC%20Meetings/Agenda
<michaelrawson> hi stephen.
<david_j_r> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Lubuntu/IRC%20Meetings/Agenda
<gilir> as usual we will follow the topics on the agenda, if you want to ask a question, just o/
<gilir> [TOPIC] Review ACTIONS from the last meeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Review ACTIONS from the last meeting
<phillw> gilir: roll call?
<gilir> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Lubuntu/Meetings/20111130#Action_items
 * Unit193 
<jmarsden|work> phillw: You waited, so now you don't get a chance to o/  <grin>!
<gilir> it should be just after the startmeeting ;)
<phillw> jmarsden|work: no point o/ before #startmeeting :D
<gilir> ok, I'll improve the introduction next week :p
<phillw> np :)
<gilir> So from last meeting, I still need to do a summary about ARM testing
<wxl> ok i'm alive
<gilir> still an action for me :p
<rafaellaguna> Hi
<StephenSmally> hi
<gilir> About QA meeting, I saw last week that it's more about doing a summary of what it's done for QA in Lubuntu
<phillw> gilir: I have added that for later.
<gilir> personnaly, I can't be at the meeting, and I'm not sure we have enough material to do a full report
<gilir> phillw, ok, let's talk about this later
<gilir> Yorvyk, I saw a mail about Ubuntu news on the list, do you have more news about it ?
<Yorvyk> I forwarded the information they asked for to the news mailing list, all the y require is a link to the team meeting minutes/logs
<Yorvyk> I'll do that each week as sson as the logs are up
<gilir> cool, not too much work for us :)
<gilir> Yorvyk, thanks
<Yorvyk> Yes a nice easy job for a change :0
<gilir> I'll keep the same format for the wiki pages, should be easier even for them to find the information :)
<gilir> About the wiki page, any progress on the prototype ?
<gilir> wxl, ^
<gilir> ok let's move on, we can about it at the end of the meeting
<gilir> [TOPIC] LXProxy - we need this tested thoroughly and working
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: LXProxy - we need this tested thoroughly and working
<gilir> Yorvyk, you want to start ?
<Yorvyk> Can we revist this later as I've lost my notes on this at the moment
<gilir> ok
<gilir> [TOPIC] User - Devel separate mailing list
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: User - Devel separate mailing list
<gilir> I'll introduce this one
<wxl> sorry i disappeared
<gilir> so, with lubuntu official, we can request a "real" mailing list on https://lists.ubuntu.com/
<Yorvyk> Good idea
<wxl> so it was suggested i do dpkg --list and put it on the wiki which i could have done but i was unable to create a new wiki page
<rafaellaguna_> Seems we're moving onto Ubuntu servers for everything...
<gilir> I think it's a good idea to move there, instead of our launchpad mailing list
<phillw> gilir: too true :)
<phillw> you may also request lubuntu cloaks for members whom are deemed worth them.
<gilir> phillw, that's another topic :)
<wxl> ooh a lubuntu cloak i want one ;)
<phillw> gilir: soz :/
<Unit193> Also, need to either move people or packages out of the -desktop ppa
<gilir> one question remain, do we stay with 1 mailing list, or do we split between devel and users ?
<phillw> gilir: I'd go for splitting it.
<michaelrawson> I say devel and users.
<Unit193> I'd vote for split
<gilir> Unit193, we can keep the PPA, I just plan to move the mailing list
<wxl> meh i'd say otherwise
<Yorvyk> The problem with splitting them is things tend to get cross posted with a small team.  This can be seen on the LXDE lists.
<wxl> i agree with the logic of organizing but the traffic is so low it's almost pointless, at least at this point.
<phillw> wxl: you can be member of both
<StephenSmally> i think split the mailing lists is a good idea
<wxl> +1 Yorvyk
<rafaellaguna_> mee too
<wxl> (tho i do understand phillw's point)
<wxl> in general i'm not a big fan of mailing lists anyways so i'm jaded. nevermind me ;)
<phillw> general support questions and dev's chatting are two different animals.
<gilir> well, I think like Yorvyk, there is still low traffic, and it's nice to have everyones in the same place
<wxl> there is often overlap
<wxl> especially when bugs are unveiled
<wxl> and often times the devs need user help to figure out the symptoms of what's going on
<rafaellaguna_> gilir: will be complicated when traffic increase?
<gilir> phillw, but sometimes, support request are bug reports ;)
<wxl> +1 gilir
<gilir> rafaellaguna_, probably
<jmarsden|work> Suggestion: start with one list for now; decide on a volume (say 50 msgs/day? average for 1 week) at which we will split off a dev list
<phillw> gilir: as I said, there is nothing to stop devs being on the general mailing list. It just reduces chatter for the devs. But, as always in lubuntu - we do what the devs want / need :)
<gilir> jmarsden|work, it sounds like a good plan
<Yorvyk> One list and see how it goes.
<michaelrawson> Although I agree, I think it needs to be handled in a way that doesn't make ordinary users feel it's "us and them".
<gilir> phillw, I don't have a strong feeling about this :)
<wxl> should we vote? ;)
<Yorvyk> Is it easy to transfer everybody from launchpad to https://lists.ubuntu.com/  or will we have to subscribe to the new list
<StephenSmally> IMHO the problem is that if a new user use the mailing list, will see a lot of devs threads, and can feel confused (just like "What the hell are they talking about!")
<phillw> michaelrawson: any 'us' (user) can mail to 'them' (devs)
<wxl> i don't see a lot of dev threads at all
<gilir> Yorvyk, subscription, but maybe we can subscribe lubuntu-desktop mailing list for the transition
<wxl> i see the occassional one.. and i like to see it even if it's not directly relevant to me
<StephenSmally> wxl: you're right, but i hope they'll increase
<wxl> StephenSmally: good question-- has the lack of a dev list kept the devs from posting more?
<michaelrawson> phillw: good point. Although I can see the dev list being obscure, and the lubuntu support list being quite obvious. But I'll shut up. ;)
<Yorvyk> An increase in traffic could make the list look more useful as it can be a bit quiet at times
<phillw> gilir: Yorvyk how does xubuntu go about their lists? It's great to learn from others :)
<Unit193> Xubuntu has users and devel
<rafaellaguna_> <cof>or copy<cof>
<Yorvyk> Like everyvody but us they have a dev and user list
<gilir> ok, let's start with 1 mailing list, we can always revisit this decision if we need, and make another one later
<michaelrawson> sensible decision.
<phillw> could we, as we as we used to do, pop it as a vote on the mailing list for a vote?
<phillw> -vote
<wxl> oh boy
<wxl> i'd rather not personally
<gilir> phillw, I don't think it's enough important / strategic for a vote :)
<phillw> okies :)
<wxl> if anything i would suggest posting a poll somewhere (not on the mailling list)
<jmarsden|work> gilir: #action someone to ask for a list on lists.ubuntu.com -- who will do this?
<wxl> i don't want 20,000 messages with yays and nays in them
<Yorvyk> Lest just se if the devs start to make a lot of noise and take it from there.
 * gastly sneaks in
<gilir> [ACTION] gilir to request creation of a list on lists.ubuntu.com
<meetingology> ACTION: gilir to request creation of a list on lists.ubuntu.com
<gilir> [TOPIC] A POC for maintaining Lubuntu FAQ pages
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: A POC for maintaining Lubuntu FAQ pages
<gilir> Hum is Mohi here ?
<Yorvyk> BRB
<michaelrawson> o/
<gilir> yes michaelrawson ?
<michaelrawson> what's a POC?
<jmarsden|work> If the FAQ is a Wiki page, does it really need a designated person?  everyone with an account can edit it...
<phillw> gilir: 17:08:40 UTC, which was 3 hours, 27 minutes, and 34 seconds ago.
<jmarsden|work> Point Of Contact
<phillw> he seems to have vanished?
<wxl> proof of concept
<wxl> ?
<gilir> ok let's move to the next one
<phillw> I was chatting to him earlier in the day.
<gilir> [TOPIC] non-PAE support future
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: non-PAE support future
<gilir> ok, so there are news about non-PAE support
<gilir> for now, the decision for ubuntu is to switch to PAE support by default, but to keep non-PAE available for 12.04
<gilir> the non-PAE support will probably be removed for 12.10
<Yorvyk> o/
<gilir> an interesting statistics was given during the meeting : about 5 % of users who report bugs on Launchpad don't have PAE support
<wxl> a surprising twist given linus' caustic opinion on the subject but c'est la vie
<Yorvyk> Does that mean the PAE kernel will be the one the ISOs boot from
<Yorvyk> I expect it to be less than 1%
<wxl> or am i getting confused?
<wxl> oh well, it's fine
<gilir> my idea is to keep PAE by default on the live ISO, but using the non-PAE for alternate ISO
<jmarsden|work> gilir: I wonder if that is people posting bugs from inside VMs with PAE emulation disabled?? :)
<StephenSmally> can't we just use general kernel? (probably there are problems, but i don't know'em)
<gilir> jmarsden|work, I don't have this information ;)
<phillw> gilir: that makes sense.
<Yorvyk> gilir:  that sounds like a good compromise
<StephenSmally> Why not launch the live with non PAE, then install it if the cpu has support?
<gilir> StephenSmally, it's better to keep what ubuntu uses, especially for such complex piece of software :)
<michaelrawson> gilir: you could argue that lubuntu was designed for old hardware such as this.
<gilir> StephenSmally, the code to auto-detect the PAE support exist in the installer
<phillw> michaelrawson: he did, that's why it is there on the alternate :)
<wxl> i guess i'm confused about this: before was pae, now non-pae will be available too, but non-pae is going to disappear in the future? i.e. nothing is changing relative to the past?
<gilir> StephenSmally, it's probably possible, but we will have to keep 2 kernel on the live ISO
<StephenSmally> mmm
<StephenSmally> right
<gilir> but, it's only a problem of space on the CD, which is not so problematic of us
<rafaellaguna_> michaelrawson: not really designed for that, but works better on those
<michaelrawson> phillw: I was referring to his comment to stehpen, but confused now, so never mind me.
<gilir> of us => for us
<gilir> StephenSmally, I'll look at this possibility, it's a good idea :)
 * wxl is confused.
<StephenSmally> thanks :-)
<gilir> [ACTION] gilir to see if we can keep the 2 kernels on live CD
<meetingology> ACTION: gilir to see if we can keep the 2 kernels on live CD
<gilir> so with this solution, nothing would change for 12.04 :)
 * phillw keeps fingers crossed
<gilir> [TOPIC] Quick Update on Q.A. Testing.
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Quick Update on Q.A. Testing.
<gilir> phillw, ^ :)
<phillw> Hi, the QA team are setting up auto-testing of the more mundane things.
<phillw> they are also liasing with Mozilla about a new testing scheme
<phillw> this should take some of the drudgery out of testing RC's
<phillw> But, in the process, they are after iso testing, concentrating on *Ubuntu* specific included apps.
<StephenSmally> o/
<phillw>  as writing testcases for Banshee should get less priority than Rhythmbox, as rhythmbox is default one
<phillw> StephenSmally:
<StephenSmally> i can't still get what Q.A. is...
<gilir> quality assurance
<wxl> more or less, testing
<gilir> it's == to testing, to be simple :)
<StephenSmally> thanks
<phillw> StephenSmally: Qualtity Assurance, before a milestone release is set upon the public, it is tested heavily against certain criterea
<rafaellaguna_> but reports go to the same place...
<gilir> phillw, I saw that there are many efforts to make automated testing for this cycle
<phillw> on the subject of them concentrating upon standard ubuntu stuff, they are also going to write up a system for adding non-standard ones. Which I think will be AbiWord & GnuMeric
<gilir> i didn't request lubuntu specific stuff, mostly because I'm not sure we will have the time to look at them (the logs of the tests)
<phillw> The updating of existing tests is on-going and they are due to write up how to make a new one in the coming weeks,
<phillw> gilir: you can action that one to me :)
<phillw> I'm really interested in how the auto-testing pans out across the whole of QA
<wxl> does this explain why unity and compiz are installed with lubuntu 12.04? ;)
<phillw> wxl, I would not know.
<gilir> phillw, well, the problem it's when it failed, you have to analyze it and find what's going on
<phillw> I've read that bit :)
<gilir> wxl, it's bug
<jmarsden|work> So they will do tests for Firefox, OOo, Thunderbird... not Chromium, Abiword, Sylpheed, ... if they automated installer testing (using preseeding?) for a variety of install scenarios, that would be good to have for Lubuntu...
 * gilir should fix it today ....
<phillw> the only other thing of note was the recent mail regarding Chromium failing to build since november last year?
<wxl> gilir: understand, just didn't know if the root cause had something to do with this automation.
<phillw> jmarsden|work: it is all pretty much developing week by week. I am keen to keep up to speed with it :)
<gilir> phillw, what is currently automated ? Only ISO testing or is there some applications already ready for automated testing ?
<phillw> gilir: jenkins has the list https://jenkins.qa.ubuntu.com/view/Precise%20ISO%20Testing%20Dashboard/view/Daily/  We're hoping to have the guy give us a run through after the holiday period
<phillw> currently, it is only doing 'core' stuff.
<phillw> ISO testing is not yet automated, it is the 1st priority for the new system.
<jmarsden|work> phillw: OK... if you need a few test cases to try, installation testing for Lubuntu would be my suggestion :)
<phillw> jmarsden|work: you will be pleased to know that now I have lubuntu 11.10 on piglet, I have all my VM's back :)
<jmarsden|work> Oh, good, that's progress :)
<gilir> phillw, I'll be happy if you keep an eye on this QA stuff :)
<phillw> and my master iso is zsync, so I can chop my iso's over quite quickly
<phillw> gilir: I'm more than happy to do so.
<gilir> ok, I think it's time
<gilir> nobody with emergency topic ?
<phillw> gilir: it was hinted as to if there was a chance of you re-starting your weekly emails to the lubuntu tam?
<wxl> nope just fix that bug gilir :D
<gilir> phillw, which email ? the one to the release team ?
<phillw> you used to send one to the lubuntu ML. We had to have stuff in by Thursday for you to include it on the Friday email?
<gilir> I still make an update on Friday for the release team, you can still send me topics to add before it
<phillw> oops, we are out of time. Can I pm you, please?
<gilir> the organisation of the release team meeting changed, I'll do an email to the team about this
<gilir> [ACTION] gilir to update how the release team is informed
<meetingology> ACTION: gilir to update how the release team is informed
<gilir> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Wed Dec 14 21:04:44 2011 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2011/ubuntu-meeting.2011-12-14-20.03.moin.txt
<gilir> thanks everyones :)
<phillw> thanks for making the time both to attend and chair gilir
<StephenSmally> bye
<michaelrawson> bye everyone, thanks to gilir and the other major contributors.
<Yorvyk> Bye
<Unit193> Awesome, that's helpful
<Unit193> Did we ever get back to Yorvyk? He was looking for notes
<Yorvyk> It'll do nest week haven't restored them to the computer yet
<gilir> Yorvyk, put it on the agenda anyway, I will have something to add about lxproxy
<MrChrisDruif> What is up?
<rafaellaguna_> Welcome, MrChrisDruif
<rafaellaguna_> well, a pleasure being here :)
<MrChrisDruif> Indeed
<bkerensa> =o
#ubuntu-meeting 2011-12-15
<ogra_> foople
 * davidm waves 
 * GrueMaster yawns
 * davidm thinks it feels like a work day not a holiday day
<ahs3> foople :)?  i like that.
<ogra_> :)
<janimo> cheers
 * mrjazzcat waves
 * ogra_ twiddles thumbs 
<ogra_> do we give NCommander 5min ?
 * infinity twiddles ogra's thumbs.
 * ogra_ feels twisted 
<davidm> ogra_, give him another minute then start meeting please
<ogra_> k
<NCommander> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Thu Dec 15 15:02:23 2011 UTC.  The chair is NCommander. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/AlanBell/mootbot.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
<NCommander> morning/evening all
<NCommander> [link] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ARM/Meeting/2011/20111215
<ogra_> thats not what you sent ion the mail :P
<NCommander> */grumble*
 * infinity shifts in his chair.
 * ogra_ twiddles thumbs 
<NCommander> anyway, we have no action items from last week
 * janimo bites fingernails
<ogra_> ooooh that excitement
<NCommander> [link] http://status.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-precise/ubuntu-arm.html
<ogra_> we could look better there ...
<ogra_> especially that doko guy :P
<ogra_> but nothing fatal yet
<ogra_> is anyone still missing specs ?
<NCommander> indeed
<NCommander> ogra_: I think they are all there
<ogra_> k
<ogra_> move ?
<NCommander> [topic] ARM Server Status (NCommander, Daviey)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: ARM Server Status (NCommander, Daviey)
<infinity> Oh, meh.  I still should break one of my work items out of image-build-pipeline into a proper spec.
<NCommander> I don't have much to report aside from the fact we had A1 images
<davidm> infinity, can you do that this week?
<infinity> davidm: If by "this week" you mean "today", yeah, I suppose I have to. :P
<ogra_> NCommander, well, thats quite a while ago
<ogra_> we had meetings since :P
<davidm> :)
<infinity> Oh, as of this morning, netboot on amrhf should work again.
<ogra_> \o/
<infinity> That's vaguely server-related.:P
<ogra_> and we have a shiny new eglibc
<infinity> The two relate. :)
<NCommander> yay
<ogra_> really ?!? :P
<NCommander> [topic] Kernel Status (cooloney, ppisati)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Kernel Status (cooloney, ppisati)
<ppisati> not much to report, except that we got a new 3.2 kernel (3.2-rc5 + latest TI BSP), armel + amrhf of course
 * ogra_ swa a bunch of omap4 things passing by on the kernel ML
<ogra_> *saw
<ppisati> and the usual rounf of SRU kernels
<ppisati> *round
<janimo> ac100 migrated to 3.0 but has issues (does not appear to boot on many models) so a fix and a new upload are to be expected soon
<ppisati> yep, this mroning
<ogra_> janimo, a word on ac100 perhaps ?
<ogra_> ah
<ogra_> he beats me :)
<janimo> long sentence :)
<ogra_> you referred to toolchain in one of your comments yesterday
<ogra_> did you try a native build instead of cross yet ?
<janimo> ogra_, in the comment I mentioned I also have hynix. The toolchain issues was brought up today on the mailing list
<janimo> I need to see if that could be it
<ogra_> since your cross built kernel seemed to have worked from the former checkout
<janimo> ogra_, no, I always built cross (<30 min vs a workday)
<ogra_> ad that was built with the older cross toolchain
<ogra_> *and
<janimo> ogra_, did anyone else report that deb working?
<ogra_> nope
<janimo> besides me
<ogra_> havent seen anyone
<janimo> hmm, ok so much for community testing :)
<ogra_> marvin24 did for the old build
<ogra_> xranby and i tested the new build from the archive
<ogra_> i actually havent tested the cross one
<janimo> anyway it will get fixed, so far it only affects armhf users who explicitly update, I estimate that number to be 1 or 2
<ogra_> well, there are more than 2 testing the hf ac100 images
<ppisati> and is the armel version working fine?
<janimo> anyway that's all from me on this topic :)
<ogra_> but i agree, they wont explicitly update to the broken kernel
 * ogra_ has no armel precise install atm 
<janimo> ppisati, no, armel build was killed in time by infinity
<janimo> as it would have probably lead to the same issues
<ppisati> ah so we don't know
<ppisati> ok
<ogra_> its a brandnew checkout based on a new chromeos kernel ...
<ogra_> so breakage is a bit expected anyway
<ogra_> :)
<ogra_> ..
<NCommander> [topic] ARM Porting/FTBFS status (NCommander, janimo)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: ARM Porting/FTBFS status (NCommander, janimo)
<ogra_> mvoe ?
<ogra_> ah :)
 * ogra_ did a bunch of fixes this week ... 
<NCommander> I have slight lag tonight. internetbeing tempermental
<janimo> not much here, just filed some bugs on packages that FTBFS due to builder timeout
<ogra_> and a big bunch of give backs
<infinity> doko's going to announce today that we're using the armhf bootstrap as the first official archive rebuild.
<janimo> now the number of armhf and armel FTBFS counts seem to be close to each other
<infinity> If people can jump in and get fixing, that would be lovely.
<ogra_> the amount of packages that havent been built since maverick is quite big
<janimo> sounds fun
<ogra_> janimo, err, they are 250 packages apart or so
<ogra_> hf is way higher
<janimo> infinity, on the real archive as opposed to some staging ones (IIRC doko used to have such builds earlier)
<infinity> Most of the armhf failures fall into a few broad categories.
<ogra_> but thats beacuse of the old binaries we have around for el
<infinity> 1) Languages that haven't been ported yet (gnat, fpc, ocamlopt)
<janimo> very popular languages I must say :)
<infinity> 2) New compiler strictness (format-security)
<ogra_> there are also a lot of deprecated functions in libs
<infinity> 3) as-needed/linking issues (-lcurses, -lm)
<ogra_> which only get hit on rebuilds
<infinity> Number 3 isn't arm-related at all, and will fail on all arches.  Hence using this as the "rebuild test".
<ogra_> g_thread and othert glib stuff mainly
<ogra_> and often moved headers too
<janimo> yes, since glib 2.31 you need explicit link to gthread
<infinity> And number 2 isn't arm-specific either, obviously. :P
<ogra_> (czrses specifically here ... just needs a b-dep added in most cases)
<ogra_> *curses
<infinity> Anyhoo.  Any help people can lend before we all run off for vacation would be lovely. ;)
 * ogra_ will do another round tomorrow
 * janimo wants an AI that fixes this repetitive boring work
<ogra_> heh
<ogra_> write one :)
<ogra_> NCommander, move ?
<NCommander> I thought we had infinity for that AI
<NCommander> [topic] ARM Hardfloat status (infinity)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: ARM Hardfloat status (infinity)
<janimo> ogra_, it would pay off in the long term
<ogra_> go then
<janimo> NCommander, he is not A just I
<ogra_> NCommander, i think we can strike that explicit category
<infinity> *rimshot*
 * janimo googles rimshot
<ogra_> just move on and drop it off the list for next meeting
<infinity> We can probably remove armhf status from the agenda now, and just lump it in with everything else.
 * janimo hopes it is not NSFW
<ogra_> new south f*ckin wales ?
<infinity> janimo: Some odd interpretations might be, but it generally refers to thwacking the rim of a snare drum to punctuate a joke.
<NCommander> not safe for work
<janimo> no, the windows XP filesystem acronym
<NCommander> thats NTFS
<ogra_> move ?
<infinity> Yes. :P
<NCommander> [topic] ARM Image Status (ogra, NCommander)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: ARM Image Status (ogra, NCommander)
<ogra_> they all build !
<ogra_> especially armhf
<infinity> And work!
<ogra_> apart from mx5 indeed
<infinity> Well, as well as they've ever worked.
<ogra_> still waiting for the kernel update
<davidm> Very nice
<janimo> TBD in the Linaro section I gues
 * ogra_ is stress testing userspace since yesterday 
<janimo> s
<infinity> Still have that dbus timeout that sometimes makes oem-config-remove-gtk shoot itself in the head.
<ogra_> and its just awesome !
<infinity> I should escalate that on my TODO.
<ogra_> feels a lot snappier than el on the UI front
<ogra_> sadly it still doesnt improve the IO
<infinity> ogra_: Yeah, I'm not sure how much of it is psychological and how much is real, but hf definitely feels snappier.
<ogra_> infinity, before A2 is enough :)
<ogra_> (read; aqt the sprint if you dont get to it earlier)
<janimo> hf = hyper fast
<infinity> ogra_: But in my case, I usually chalk it up to "I spent way too much time on this, so I have to fool myself into liking it".
<ogra_> well, the hf isntall is the first one where i didnt feel the need to immediately replace FF with chromium
<ogra_> it runs really smooth ... which it didnt on el on the ac100
<infinity> Speaking of, markos should be re-running his hf benchmarks with Ubuntu versus Ubuntu soon, for some more solid numbers.
<ogra_> yeah, that would be good
<infinity> But, yeah.  Image status.  Everything we build works.  And (though I haven't tested it yet), netinst should work now too.
<ogra_> ++
<infinity> At least, I fixed the bug that was making it not work. :P
<infinity> So, here's hoping.
<ogra_> NCommander, move
<ogra_> :)
<GrueMaster> netinst is having trouble finding a kernel.
<NCommander> [topic] QA Status (GrueMaster, mahmoh)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: QA Status (GrueMaster, mahmoh)
 * NCommander beats ogra_ 
<ogra_> heh
<ogra_> GrueMaster, pfft, whats a kernel ...
<ogra_> largely overrated
<GrueMaster> Currently running netinstall on precise HF.  Can't find a suitable kernel.  Trying to preseed around it.
<ogra_> what arch ?
<infinity> omap or omap4?
<GrueMaster> omap4.
<GrueMaster> panda
<ogra_> hmm that should be there
<infinity> Did we bump ABI on ti-omap4 again?
<ppisati> yes
<ogra_> unless -meta got stuck in universe once again or so
<ppisati> almost every upload we bump it
<GrueMaster> Could it be that netinstall is hardcoded to armel?
<ppisati> the last pull was from this morning, but it didn't enter the archive yet
<ogra_> shouldnt
<GrueMaster> And not know about armhf?
<NCommander> probably libd-i or base-installer need a stick
<ogra_> iirc infinity foxed that
<ogra_> (and fixed too)
<ogra_> foxy infinity :)
<ppisati> :)
<GrueMaster> I'm running it again with linux-omap4 in the preseed for kernel override.  Should know if it works in ~10 minutes.
<NCommander> I'll poke it if it still ails
<ogra_> who uses netinst anyway :P
<infinity> Sure.
<GrueMaster> Automation of released images back to Maverick now working.  SRU testing automation near fully complete.
 * ogra_ ducks from possible things GrueMaster could throw
<GrueMaster> QRT tests have been fixed up and all failing issues resolved either in the kernels or (mainly) the tests.
<davidm> Nice work GrueMaster
<GrueMaster> Found config issue on omap kernels where mmap_min_addr was incorrectly set.
<ogra_> yeah
<GrueMaster> netinstall still fails armhf.  Diverting attention to NCommander to look into.
<NCommander> grukmble
<GrueMaster> (less than 10 minutes to fail - not bad).
<infinity> I'm looking.
<infinity> Are we done meetinging early?
<GrueMaster> The armhf install feels faster (to this point).
<GrueMaster> I have nothing else.
<ogra_> everything feels faster with armhf :)
<NCommander> [topic] Linaro Updates (rsalveti)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Linaro Updates (rsalveti)
 * rsalveti waves
<rsalveti> not much from my side for this week
<rsalveti> we're running to finish the release
<rsalveti> and get things in place
<rsalveti> but the cross toolchain seems to be fixed
<infinity> rsalveti: When do we see armhf LEBs?
<rsalveti> should have a better idea and a better status next meeting :-)
<rsalveti> infinity: once a builder is enabled at offspring
<rsalveti> inprogress
<janimo> rsalveti, cross toolchain fixed as in a bug corrected?
<rsalveti> janimo: cross toolchain was broken at precise
<janimo> hmm ok. I used 4.6.1 so far in precise and 4.6.2 since yesterday
<rsalveti> and for my previous action, anmar is talking with the vendors about getting the drivers available for armhf
<rsalveti> janimo: guess 4.6.2 is the one that got updated
<rsalveti> I think we have the bug numbers, can point you later
<rsalveti> hrw should know better
<rsalveti> he merged a bunch of patches
<rsalveti> but it's still unable to look for multi-arch paths
<rsalveti> that bug is still in progress
<rsalveti> bug 799965
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 799965 in Linaro-Ubuntu "cross-compiler doesn't have /usr/include on the search path" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/799965
<rsalveti> once this bug is fixed I believe it should be all in place for multi-arch to work properly
<rsalveti> without setting the paths and etc by hand
<ogra_> any news about unity merging ?
<janimo> rsalveti, thanks. I only cross built the kernel so maybe was not an issue for me
<rsalveti> ogra_: still blocked by DX team :-(
<rsalveti> with the test definitions and such
<ogra_> yep, k
<rsalveti> it's kind of the same state as we discussed last week
<rsalveti> unfortunately
<ogra_> yup, i didnt expect more ... but could have been that they asked for tests to be written or so
<rsalveti> and panda for us is kind of broken
<rsalveti> sound doesn't work, video decoding is broken, perf is also broken
<rsalveti> and a few other issues
<ogra_> on your oneiric builds ?
<rsalveti> ogra_: both oneiric and precise
<rsalveti> the tilt-linux-linaro-3.1 kernel
<ogra_> wow
<ogra_> ah
<rsalveti> the same one that was used by ubuntu when merging to the omap 4 kernel
<ogra_> right, but in precise
<ogra_> wheer we expect such bugs :)
<rsalveti> well, the kernel is broken :-)
<ppisati> uh?
<ogra_> as long as oneiric works as released, all is fine
<rsalveti> so I'd avoid syncing with the LT kernel in the next few days
<ppisati> actually andy told me these were fixed
<ppisati> it was just a matter of ereversing some stuff (suspend & resume fix IIRC)
<ppisati> this for 3.2
<rsalveti> ppisati: not atm
<ppisati> dunno about 3.1
<rsalveti> 3.2 is still a work in progresss
<rsalveti> but we should know better in the next few days
<rsalveti> that's all from my side, need to go back and do the release ;-)
<janimo> rsalveti, good luck with it
<rsalveti> janimo: thanks :-)
<ogra_> yeah
<ogra_> NCommander, ?
<NCommander> [topic] AOB
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: AOB
 * ogra_ has something
<NCommander> please GET YOUR DAILY REPORTS ONTO THE WIKI
<NCommander> sDAILY/WEEKLY/g
<janimo> weekly?
<ogra_> the nvidia tegra beta driver was uploaded to source NEW yesterday
<ogra_> its armel only ... and precise
<davidm> ogra_, nice
<ogra_> i only have precise armhf around atm, and would appreciate some testing once infinity let it out of the cage
<infinity> We're wikiing reports?
 * ogra_ sent his by mail 
<ogra_> to davidm
<davidm> I have them so easy to add
<NCommander> beyond that I hav enothing
 * ogra_ is done too
<davidm> OK we are winding down for the end of the year so
<NCommander> closing in 3
<NCommander> 2
<NCommander> 1
<NCommander> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Thu Dec 15 15:43:48 2011 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2011/ubuntu-meeting.2011-12-15-15.02.moin.txt
<czajkowski> aloha
<dholbach> hiya
<czajkowski> shall give it another min before I start so the others can join
 * dholbach nods
<dholbach> pleia2, akgraner are already here, gwaihir, sabdfl, beuno, Yokozar hopefully get here soon (gwaihir said he might be late)
<czajkowski> dholbach: shall I start so ?
<czajkowski> pleia2: wont be here more than likely she mailed yesterday
<dholbach> ahh ok, must have missed that one
<czajkowski> anyone here from the forums council ?
<sabdfl> hello, sorry to be late
<czajkowski> Joeb454: ping
<Gwaihir> hello, just arrived too, sorry for being late
 * dholbach quickly reviews https://launchpad.net/~forum-council/+members#active
<czajkowski> ok shall start and see how things go from there.
<czajkowski> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Thu Dec 15 17:05:49 2011 UTC.  The chair is czajkowski. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/AlanBell/mootbot.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
<czajkowski> #meetingname Community Concil December 15 2011 Meeting
<meetingology> The meeting name has been set to 'community_concil_december_15_2011_meeting'
<czajkowski> #link https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CommunityCouncilAgenda
<dholbach> (from what I could see, Joeb454 seems to be the only person from the Forums Council around)
<czajkowski> #meetingtopic Review action items from last meeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Review action items from last meeting Meeting | Current topic:
<czajkowski> There doesn't seem to be any action items from the last meeting
<YokoZar> Here, apologies
<czajkowski> #meetingtopic Team Catch up â Ubuntu Forums Council
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Team Catch up â Ubuntu Forums Council Meeting | Current topic:
<dholbach> no, at least none were noted down in the team report (https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CommunityCouncil/TeamReports/11/December)
<czajkowski> I did mail the forums council re the catch up
 * pleia2 waves
<czajkowski> Joeb454: did ack my mail but haven;t heard from anyone since
<czajkowski> I'll email after the meeting and ask them to perhaps email us instead ?
<dholbach> if nobody turns up during the meeting, we should re-add them
<dholbach> mail would work too, I guess - although it's less interactive
<dholbach> but mailing definitely sounds good - thanks czajkowski :)
<czajkowski> aye it is, and it was lovely last time to hear from the edbuntu team tbh
<dholbach> yeah, aggreed
<akgraner> agree I like the idea of re-adding them
<czajkowski> dholbach: I'll mail them and suggest either the next IRC meeting or the following one which will mean two catch ups in one meeting
<czajkowski> #action czajkowski to mail the forums council and ask them to come again to the meeting
<meetingology> ACTION: czajkowski to mail the forums council and ask them to come again to the meeting
<dholbach> great
<czajkowski> #topic YokoZar Inactive mailing list culling
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Team Catch up â Ubuntu Forums Council Meeting | Current topic:  YokoZar Inactive mailing list culling
<YokoZar> Right
<YokoZar> So, I sent the mail to the list with the list of mailing lists on it
<sabdfl> let's play occam ;)
<dholbach> that's a lot of lists in a sentence
<YokoZar> Indeed :)
<YokoZar> I still haven't parsed the list entirely, but then again I never learned LISP
<sabdfl> at least that takes our list off that list
<YokoZar> http://instantrimshot.com/
<YokoZar> ok
<YokoZar> anyway
<YokoZar> There are a good chunk of 0 activity mailing lists, and probably quite a few minimal ones, and I want to know what the next step is.  I assume it's an uncontroversial close if no one's used it in a year or so
<dholbach> YokoZar, is there a WIP overview?
<czajkowski> YokoZar: as long as you leave locoteams out of this cull please
<czajkowski> as was agreed on the call
<YokoZar> czajkowski: right, noted (and I wasn't on the call)
<dholbach> maybe we can script something where we check the wiki for references
<czajkowski> as some locoteams go through slow inactive periods on ml but could be active elsewhere.
<akgraner> Should we blog we are going todo this and let the community know
<YokoZar> It's probably less work to just go through it manually (and we'll need to anyway for all the candidate closes to see if what posts there are are legit or spam anyway)
<Gwaihir> agree with akgraner, looking at the list there are also some translation teams mailing list in there
<YokoZar> does every translation team have a list?
<sabdfl> are we going to send a mail to each list that will get nuked?
<Gwaihir> YokoZar, every approved team, yes
<czajkowski> YokoZar: a lot would tbh
<czajkowski> sabdfl: that would be the best solution to do so yes.
<dholbach> maybe a TODO overview on etherpad would be good to see which still need review?
<Gwaihir> might be worth to send an email to the general translators mailing list with a list of suspicious mailing lists
<dholbach> I could look into writing a small script that looks if they're referenced from the wiki
<YokoZar> If you want to just take on the whole task of proposing ones for deletion I wouldn't mind that either
<akgraner> I just pinged dpm to ask about translation teams mailing lists
<YokoZar> Still there are a good lot of non-translation, non-loco team lists that could probably be axed (these I suspect fall outside of the wishful thinking hopefully used some day)
<czajkowski> ok so moving forward how do we want to progress?
<akgraner> Let's blog we are going to do this - then touch base with dpm on translations and email the mailing lists we want to nuke
<dholbach> YokoZar, do you think you could share your current WIP somewhere? that'd help us organise the rest of the work - we could also review it in the next meeting
<YokoZar> do we really need to mail a list that one one's posted to for 8 months?    But sure, dholbach, I'll post something on an etherpad somewhere and we can just sort of collaboratively make notes about it
<YokoZar> *no one
<czajkowski> ok so
<akgraner> I think it's just due process, but I don't have my heart set on it
<czajkowski> #action YokoZar to post to the list link to etherpad on work done so far
<meetingology> ACTION: YokoZar to post to the list link to etherpad on work done so far
<YokoZar> What comes after the decision though?
<YokoZar> IE, we decide to get rid of kernel-bugs, who do we then contact?  RT ticket?
<beuno> yeah, RTs
<czajkowski> team ower and RT ticket
<YokoZar> ok then, noted
<czajkowski> If we come up with the list of ml to be culled I'll create the RTs
<YokoZar> Is pad.ubuntu.com good for this?  Or was it going to be mysteriously wiped soon
<akgraner> I can blog about this process and get that posted on the Fridge and UWN
<czajkowski> #action akgraner to blog process for UWN and Fridge
<meetingology> ACTION: akgraner to blog process for UWN and Fridge
<akgraner> YokoZar, good question
<dholbach> YokoZar, let's hope it doesn't take us so long that we might run risk of it being wiped ;-)
<czajkowski> YokoZar: AlanBell may know the answer to that
<czajkowski> or the loco council has one we can open up a public link to for working on
<czajkowski> anything else ?
<AlanBell> YokoZar: intending not to wipe it, and also not to be mysterious about not wiping it
<dholbach> speaking of AlanBell - I think I forgot where we stand with the Planet feed update
<dholbach> :)
 * dholbach hugs AlanBell
<YokoZar> AlanBell: All right, good to hear :)
<czajkowski> are we finished on this topic for now ?
<AlanBell> dholbach: I have had some great feedback, I need to grab the config file and do a heap of updates to nick lines to bring them into line with LP nicks
<Gwaihir> dholbach, thanks for bringing that up
<dholbach> AlanBell, awesome
<dholbach> thanks muchly
<Gwaihir> AlanBell, great!
<AlanBell> also will probably sort alphabetically and move to the bottom a set of feeds that are candidates for deletion (I won't do that though)
<sabdfl> thanks alan
<czajkowski> #topic planet Ubuntu spring cleaning rss feeds
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Team Catch up â Ubuntu Forums Council Meeting | Current topic:  planet Ubuntu spring cleaning rss feeds
<dholbach> let's disucss it at the next CC meeting again (likely January) and see where we stand
<czajkowski> ok
<AlanBell> ok
<dholbach> for a Spring cleaning we're quite early - I like that ;-)
<czajkowski> we're on the ball :)
<czajkowski> right does anyone else have another other topic given our agenda is now empty
 * dholbach is all set
<akgraner> Meeting on the 29th - will everyone be here or on holiday?
<czajkowski> #action czajkowski post to the wiki and update the wiki agenda with logs
<meetingology> ACTION: czajkowski post to the wiki and update the wiki agenda with logs
<Gwaihir> akgraner, I'll be around
<pleia2> I'll be around
<czajkowski> I'll be around
<akgraner> ok - I won't so was just curious
<dholbach> I'll be on holidays :-D
<czajkowski> should we postpone it till the new year so ?
<czajkowski> and just have our catch up call next week as the final one of the year?
<pleia2> I've got a lot going on even though I'll be around, I wouldn't object to postponing it
<akgraner> +1 to postpone
<pleia2> well, skip :)
<akgraner> :-)
<dholbach> I'll definitely be there next week - on 29th no team catchup is planned, but if you hold the meeting I'll make sure I'll think of you ;-)
<czajkowski> sabdfl: YokoZar beuno any objections to not having a meeting on the 29th and having our final catch up next week before xmas?
<YokoZar> nope
<sabdfl> +1
<czajkowski> grand
<czajkowski> ok
<czajkowski> so finally next chair for meeting in January
<czajkowski> #agreed no meeting on the 29th December, next IRC meeting in January.
<czajkowski> #agree no meeting on the 29th December, next IRC meeting in January.
<beuno> +1
<czajkowski> one day I'll strangle the bot
<czajkowski> are we going in alpahbetical order for the chair ?
<dholbach> if that's the 5th I won't be around :-/
<dholbach> (I wouldn't mind doing the one afterwards though)
<czajkowski> ok
<akgraner> should we just set something new for the first of the year and start off fresh?
<czajkowski> ok akgraner you're chair so :)
<Gwaihir> :-)
<dholbach> :)
<akgraner> ok  - i deserve that..put me down
<akgraner> then we set up alphabetical order then
<dholbach> you're all awesome :)
<czajkowski> #action akgraner to chair january meeting
<meetingology> ACTION: akgraner to chair january meeting
<czajkowski> anyting else
<czajkowski> ok
<czajkowski> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Thu Dec 15 17:36:14 2011 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2011/ubuntu-meeting.2011-12-15-17.05.moin.txt
<czajkowski> Thanks folks
<akgraner> thanks czajkowski!
<dholbach> thanks everyone
<Gwaihir> thanks Laura! thanks everyone!
<YokoZar> cheers
<beuno> o/
<beuno> o/
<n0rman> o/
<[N]> o/
<trinikrono> o/
#ubuntu-meeting 2011-12-16
<beuno> no kdub?
<pleia2> doesn't look like it
<pleia2> he's in my loco team, I'll touch base out of meeting
<beuno> and no juanmarquez either
<pleia2> short meeting indeed!
<pleia2> we'll hang around for 20 minutes in case anyone shows up :)
<pleia2> ah, juanmarquez is already a member!
<[N]> JuanMarquez was already an Ubuntu Member. His membership accidentally expired though. I have gone ahead and renewed it for him
<n0rman> the shortest meeting?
<pleia2> thanks [N]
<trinikrono> can i ask for info here?,i would like to apply for membership but i dont know if i have contributed enough, you can see my wiki page here https://wiki.ubuntu.com/trinikrono
<pleia2> ok, doesn't look like he'll be coming, have nice holidays everyone :)
<beuno> trinikrono, hi
<beuno> sure, let me look
<beuno> pleia2, o/
<[N]> trinikrono: My best piece of advice (and what I did myself) is to look through the logs from some of the prior meetings and look at the people who applied. You can get a pretty good idea about what we are looking for and determine if you are ready.
<beuno> trinikrono, how many people are in the LoCo?
<pleia2> trinikrono: I'd list any events your loco team has done, if any, if you haven't done any I'd work to start planning stuff
<pleia2> (setting up a loco is great work! but the next step to have events is important :))
<trinikrono> ah in the application itself
<cyphermox> argh! sorry sorry!!! I'm late!
<trinikrono> yes we had a few but i did not put them there
<pleia2> cyphermox: it's ok, no meeting :)
<pleia2> trinikrono: ah, I'd add the events and what your role was (organizer? volunteer?)
<cyphermox> ah ;)
<trinikrono> yes ill work on the application and read some of the past applications
<n0rman> trinikrono: you have to add t info about the events )
<trinikrono> i thought i would see one tonight lol
<beuno> trinikrono, yeah, I think you could expand your application a bit, but all in all, it's worth expanding ti and applying, that's for sure
<trinikrono> :D thank you then, ill see if i get everything ready for the next one
 * skaet waves
<Daviey> o/
<pitti> \o
<cjwatson> hi
<Daviey> â
<skaet> seeing familiar faces in the channel,  so time to start.  :)
<jibel> Hi o/
<mdeslaur> \o
<dbarth> hi o/
<skaet> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Fri Dec 16 16:01:05 2011 UTC.  The chair is skaet. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/AlanBell/mootbot.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
<skaet> [TOPIC] Release general overview - skaet
<skaet> Agenda can be found:
<skaet> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ReleaseTeam/Meeting/2011-12-16
<skaet> Individual team status links will be added to it from:
<skaet> [LINK] https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-release/2011-December/thread.html
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Release general overview - skaet
<skaet> Team status' submitted  by EOD Thursday have already been linked to the agenda, others will be added after the meeting.
<brendand> o/
<skaet> .
<skaet> Schedule for this release will be at:
<skaet> [link] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/PrecisePangolin/ReleaseSchedule
<skaet> [link] http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars/ubuntu-release-calendar/
<skaet> .
<skaet> There are now  2319 work items (up from last week, was 2084 on 2011/11/25), and we're falling above the trend line for features on some projects.
<skaet> Please review your tasks and make sure status is accurate before the new year.
<skaet> [link]  http://status.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-precise/
<skaet> .
<skaet> Bugs committed to be fixed by the engineering teams can be found:
<skaet> #link http://reports.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/kernel-bugs/reports/rls-p-tracking-bugs.html
<skaet> Bugs that you would like the engineering teams to consider for fixing, should be assigned to specific teams, so they can be found.
<skaet> .
<skaet> Upcoming Dates:
<skaet> â¢ 2011/12/16 - Last meeting of 2011 - best wishes for the holiday break!
<skaet> â¢ 2012/01/06 - Weekly meetings resume
<skaet> â¢ 2012/01/09 - DebianImportFreeze
<skaet> â¢ 2012/02/02 - '''Alpha 2'''
<skaet> .
<skaet> IS and stgraber have worked through the glitches, and the updated  http://iso.qa.ubuntu.com/ is now operational.  :)   Daily testing results and bugs can now be logged there now going forward.
<skaet> ..
<skaet> any questions before we start in to round table?
<Daviey> (no)
<skaet> stgraber needs to go early,  and want to welcome olli to the round table this time. :)
<skaet> thanks for the no Daviey :)
<skaet> [TOPIC] Edubuntu Team Q&A - stgraber
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Edubuntu Team Q&A - stgraber
 * stgraber waves
<stgraber> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-release/2011-December/000604.html
<skaet> Thanks stgraber.  anyone have questions today?
<stgraber> I'm still testing the new casper but so far everything looks good, let me know if it's breaking for your flavour.
<Daviey> stgraber: is edubuntu doing anything interesting with LTSP soon?
<stgraber> Daviey: I still need to test the current upstream and upload ltsp and ldm then
<Daviey> stgraber: do you have an ETA?
<stgraber> Daviey: the current version has been patched to work for both Edubuntu and Ubuntu (cherry-pick of a commit upstream)
<stgraber> Daviey: hopefully by end of year, LTSP is mostly done on my spare time
<stgraber> I can easily push a new upstream, but after our hackfest in October, a good part of the initrd scripts and init scripts have been changed in a radical way
<Daviey> rocking!  Thanks st	
<Daviey> stgraber*
<stgraber> I want to make sure we actually want that for the LTS and that it's going to be supportable for 5 years
 * skaet going to wait for the .. this time before going on ;)
<stgraber> otherwise, I may just end up cherry picking some bugfixes and stick with what we have now (which at lesat works)
<stgraber> ..
<Daviey> stgraber: /me has interest.. so please ping me if you want a tester
<Daviey> ..
<skaet> :)
<skaet> thanks guys...
<skaet> [TOPIC] Hardware Certification team update - mlegris
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Hardware Certification team update - mlegris
<brendand> skaet - i'll take this
<skaet> thanks brendand :)
<brendand> == What was done engineering wise? ==
<brendand> Testing of the Alpha 1 image on a select batch of systems in the Hardware Certification labs:
<brendand> http://people.canonical.com/~hwcert/precise-testing/precise_alpha1.html
<brendand> With holidays, not many systems have been tested yet, but no significant issues found on the ones tested so far.
<brendand> == What's about to land that might impact the other teams? ==
<brendand> Nothing significant. One bug located, but it does not block the system from being certified:
<brendand> https://launchpad.net/bugs/904844 ([Dell Latitude 2110] Screen is blank after restoring from hibernate)
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 904844 in linux (Ubuntu) "[Dell Latitude 2110] Screen is blank after restoring from hibernate" [Medium,Incomplete]
<brendand> == Summary of bugs working on by team (reasonably reliable) ==
<brendand> Nothing that we are working on specifically. Everything is ok certification infrastructure wise.
<brendand> == Dependencies on other teams, blocking items ==
<brendand> Nothing
<brendand> == Issues? ==
<brendand> None
<Daviey> brendand: sevrers reliably booting?
<Daviey> servers*
<brendand> Daviey - haven't got around to them yet, sorry
<brendand> ..
<brendand> Daviey - you can see the ones we will be testing there on the report
<Daviey> ta
<skaet> brendand, has anyone checked if oneiric failures are in precise too?
<brendand> skaet - i think there are some systems we'll be testing that had serious failures in oneiric. they haven't been tested yet though
<skaet> brendand, thanks.   please flag it to me as soon as you know for sure.
<brendand> skaet - yep
<skaet> :)
<Daviey> brendand: we could really do with early warning of pluming issues :)
 * skaet not seeing other questions, so onwards...
<skaet> [TOPIC] QA team update -  jibel
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: QA team update -  jibel
<jibel> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-release/2011-December/000612.html
<jibel> anyone have questions ?
<skaet> Thanks jibel.   Right now, enjoying watching the new infrastructure emerge.   :D
<jibel> we do too :)
<skaet> [TOPIC] Security team Q&A - mdeslaur
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Security team Q&A - mdeslaur
<mdeslaur> hi!
<mdeslaur> [LINK] https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-release/2011-December/000602.html
<mdeslaur> The security team has been busy doing reactive work. No significant progress
<mdeslaur> on work items to report.
<mdeslaur> That's all. Any questions?
<skaet> Thansk mdeslaur,  who's the contact if there's a security isue over the holiday?
<mdeslaur> You can email security@ubuntu.com. I'm only off between xmas and new year's, but will be checking in.
<skaet> Thanks!  :)
<skaet> [TOPIC] Kernel team Q&A - ogasawara
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Kernel team Q&A - ogasawara
<ogasawara> [LINK] https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-release/2011-December/000601.html
<ogasawara> I covered everything I needed to in my email.  I would just also note that a large portion of the team is beginning their end of year holidays soon, so they may be unreachable starting next week. Any questions?
<ogasawara> ..
<skaet> Thanks ogasawara.  :)
 * skaet doesn't have questions from the email. 
<skaet> [TOPIC] Foundations team Q&A - cjwatson
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Foundations team Q&A - cjwatson
<cjwatson> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-release/2011-December/000599.html
<cjwatson> I followed up to my own mail with a couple of amendments as well
 * skaet nods
<cjwatson> like others, many of our team will be drifting away on holiday over the next week, of course
<cjwatson> the big news from today is that the archive publisher is now running every 30 minutes, after a lot of hard work on optimisation
<stgraber> yeah!
<skaet> WOOT!!!
<pitti> wow! congrats!
<Daviey> \o/
<cjwatson> ..
<ogra_> wohoo
<skaet> Thanks cjwatson!  awesome news about the publisher!
<skaet> will there be +1 maintenance team coverage during the week between christmas and new year?
<cjwatson> hopefully it'll stay that way; it may miss the odd run
<pitti> skaet: very little from my side, I'm afraid
<cjwatson> at least until bug 905333 is fixed
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 905333 in Launchpad itself "Ubuntu publisher should trigger scandium in the background" [Undecided,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/905333
<cjwatson> skaet: that's pitti's area this month
<cjwatson> I'll be around a bit and will try to keep an eye on anything archive-threatening
<pitti> I'll try to have a look every now and then, but I won't be able to sit down for hours to debug stuff
<cjwatson> no guarantees over the holidays though
<skaet> cjwatson, gotcha.  pitti, thanks.   okie, expectations set.  :)
<pitti> I'm happy to do the odd binary promotion or package rebuild etc.
<cjwatson> likewise
<pitti> but in general, Don't Break The Damn Thing over the holidays, please
<cjwatson> or if you do, fix it ...
 * skaet nods emphatically
<cjwatson> mind you, I'll still be running auto-imports from time to time
<Daviey> then write a test case.
<cjwatson> so bear that in mind
<pitti> cjwatson: yeah, those caused quite a lot of damage, so we need to watch out for those
<pitti> we had two cases in teh last week alone
<cjwatson> I'll try not to do it and then go away for the day :)
<skaet> [TOPIC] Server team Q&A - Daviey
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Server team Q&A - Daviey
<Daviey> Oh hello
<Daviey> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-release/2011-December/000611.html
<Daviey> Any questions? :)
<skaet> Thanks Daviey!
<Daviey> anyone? :(
<skaet> servercloud-LTS-hardening; servercloud-service-orchestration workitems haven't budged in terms of tracking.   symptom of churn going on, or just needs updating?  catch up by A2 possible?
 * Daviey lookies
 * skaet didn't want Daviey sad. ;)
<Daviey> The status could be clearer, but there is a bulk of blocked items
<skaet> also wondering will arosales be joining us, or will you continue to cover the entire server team?
<Daviey> Som eof the blocked items will updated or dropped i sspect
<Daviey> The boot time profiling needs further discussion to avoid duplication with desktop team
 * skaet nods
<Daviey> skaet: I'll sync with him.. and update soon.
<skaet> ok, will check back with you on the boot time profiling in the new year.
<skaet> thanks Daviey! :)
<Daviey> super.
<skaet> [TOPIC] ARM team Q&A-  ogra_
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: ARM team Q&A-  ogra_
<Daviey> np o/
<ogra_> hey, thats me !
<ogra_> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-release/2011-December/000616.html
<ogra_> questions ?
<skaet> Thanks ogra_!   glad to hear all is well with armhf images.  :)
<ogra_> yeah :)
<skaet> how do they compare in terms of build time with armel?
<pitti> well, except for them failing to build due to LibO?
<ogra_> we never seeded LibO
<ogra_> ;)
<pitti> hm, I get failed armhf image build mail every day
<pitti> but maybe that was a flavour
<pitti> so, ignore me
<ogra_> from kubuntu
<ogra_> they should probably temporary unseed it
<ogra_> skaet, build time is identical
<ogra_> they *feel* a lot faster on the desktop ... but thats a subjective impression
<ogra_> (though i hear others say that as well ... )
<ogra_> ..
<skaet> ogra_ ok thanks.    I'll chat with you about it more after meeting.
<ogra_> k
<skaet> Daviey,  did you want us to pause, or just signalling done with the o/ earlier?
<skaet> if so add comment/ask question. ;)
<Daviey> done earlier
<Daviey> sorry.
<skaet> np,  just confused and didn't want to be rude. ;)
<skaet> [TOPIC] Linaro team Q&A - fabo
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Linaro team Q&A - fabo
<fabo> o/
 * skaet not seeing fabo in channel, moving on.
<skaet> oh,  can't see I guess :)
<fabo> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-release/2011-December/000600.html
<fabo> ..
<skaet> Thanks fabo!  sorry about that.
<fabo> np :)
<dbarth> o/
<skaet> go ahead dbarth
<dbarth> fabo: can you point me at the latest / official branches you want us to merge in?
<dbarth> i've seen one updated 12h ago
<dbarth> fabo: can we see that on the linaro channel?
<fabo> dbarth: sure, I'll reply on the list. I don't know on the top of my head.
<dbarth> ok
<fabo> ..
<skaet> fabo, is there a contact over the holidays for problems?
<fabo> skaet: I'm around. you can contact me and I'll raise as appropriate.
<skaet> coolio,  Thanks fabo! :)
<skaet> [TOPIC] Ubuntu One Team Q&A -  joshuahoover
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu One Team Q&A -  joshuahoover
<skaet> ok,  I've double checked ;) and don't see him.  moving on.
<skaet> [TOPIC] Desktop Team Q&A  - pitti
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Desktop Team Q&A  - pitti
<pitti> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-release/2011-December/000610.html
<pitti> nothing to add really
<pitti> oh, except perhaps that bug 902553  is apparently still not fixed for all corner cases
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 902553 in perl (Ubuntu Precise) "package doc-base 0.10.3 failed to install/upgrade: ErrorMessage: /usr/bin/perl: symbol lookup error: /usr/lib/perl5/auto/UUID/UUID.so: undefined symbol: Perl_xs_apiversion_bootcheck" [High,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/902553
<pitti> currently discussing this with the Debian Perl maintainer
<pitti> but I'll get to take 4 next Monday
<pitti> questions?
<pitti> ..
<skaet> Thanks pitti!  none from me.  :)
 * skaet doesn't see any emerging hands, so moving on. 
<skaet> [TOPIC] DX Team Q&A - dbarth
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: DX Team Q&A - dbarth
<dbarth> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopExperienceTeam/ReleaseStatus
<dbarth> the significant part is the SRU candidate we've wrapped this week
<dbarth> it prepares for the january uploads and can help validate fixes on the stable release
<dbarth> it's *not* pushed to proposed though, to avoid brown paper issues while everyone's away
<dbarth> it's in the desktop-team ppa
<dbarth> ..
<skaet> Thanks dbarth!  appreciate the hold off.
<skaet> any questions?
<skaet> [TOPIC] Desktop Systems Team  Q&A - olli
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Desktop Systems Team  Q&A - olli
<skaet> welcome olli!  :)
<olli> hi there
<olli> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-release/2011-December/000609.html
<olli> in addition, we have been focusing on libido bugs LP #524541 LP #886335 and LP #898611
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 524541 in ido (Ubuntu) "Volume (slider) item isn't highlighted when selected" [Medium,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/524541
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 886335 in The Sound Menu "Unable to use arrow keys to adjust the volume control in the sound menu." [Medium,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/886335
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 898611 in indicator-sound (Ubuntu) "Slider shouldn't increase by steps" [Low,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/898611
<olli> other than that it's been a quiet week due to a sprint and holidays
<olli> any questions
<skaet> Thanks olli.   no questions from me.
<skaet> [TOPIC] Kubuntu Team Q&A - Riddell
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Kubuntu Team Q&A - Riddell
<Riddell> hi
<Riddell> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-release/2011-December/000605.html
<Riddell> ..
<skaet> Thanks Riddell.  any one have questions?
<skaet> [TOPIC] Xubuntu Team Q&A - madnick
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Xubuntu Team Q&A - madnick
<madnick> hi
<madnick> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-release/2011-December/000603.html
<madnick> that is pretty much it :)
<madnick> ..
<skaet> Thansk madnick.  :)
<skaet> [TOPIC] Ubuntu Studio Team Q&A - scott-work
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Studio Team Q&A - scott-work
<skaet> hmm, not in channel.
<skaet> [TOPIC] Lubuntu Team Q&A - gilir
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Lubuntu Team Q&A - gilir
<gilir> hi :)
<skaet> :)
<gilir> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-release/2011-December/000607.html
<gilir> ..
<skaet> Thanks gilir. :)
<skaet> [TOPIC] Any other business, comments,  questions thought of after session passed: ?
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Any other business, comments,  questions thought of after session passed: ?
<skaet> Comment: some late arrivals in ubuntu-release mail list held up by membership (all who want to post there are welcome and encouraged to join the mailing list) .   Please see doko's post on the mail list.
<skaet> Comment:  Just wanted to wish everyone an enjoyable holiday break with their friends and family!   Very much looking forward to working with all of you in 2012!!
<skaet> Thank you for your participation in these meetings stgraber, brendand, jibel, mdeslaur, ogasawara, cjwatson,  ogra_, fabo, joshhuahoover, pitti, dbarth, olli, Riddell, madnick, gilir  :)
<skaet> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Fri Dec 16 16:54:25 2011 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2011/ubuntu-meeting.2011-12-16-16.01.moin.txt
<pitti> thanks!
<pitti> so, happy christmas holidays everyoen
<jibel_> thanks
<ogra_> thanks skaet
<s-fox> 4 minutes to go until the meeting
<s-fox> Just waiting for the rest of the FC atm
<s-fox> Hello moergaes :)
<moergaes> Hello s.fox
<moergaes> My first meeting here.
<s-fox> \o/
<moergaes> :-)
<s-fox> Okay, I guess we should start.
<Artificial_Intel> hello
<Artificial_Intel> who's present?
<moergaes> MÃ¶rgÃ¦s
<s-fox> cariboo907,  overdrank , moergaes and myself
<s-fox>  and you
<s-fox> bodhi , joeb, baps and iowan are not here
<s-fox> :(
<s-fox> should we start Artificial_Intel?
<Artificial_Intel> can we take any decision when most of the FC is away?
<s-fox> Nope :/
<Artificial_Intel> ah
<s-fox> We have some discussion things though we could do
<Artificial_Intel> ok, I'm ready
<s-fox> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Fri Dec 16 22:05:29 2011 UTC.  The chair is s-fox. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/AlanBell/mootbot.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
<MrChrisDruif> What meeting is this?
<s-fox> FC meeting
<MrChrisDruif> And that is?
<s-fox> [TOPIC] Ubuntu Forums Council Meeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Forums Council Meeting
<s-fox> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ForumCouncilAgenda
<s-fox> Okay, the first thing is the ripfox ban. we need to vote on it, so perhaps move om
<MrChrisDruif> Alright, I'll just lurk
<Artificial_Intel> We can't take a decision on that without the others, I agree
<s-fox> Fancy going over the sub-forums request Artificial_Intel?
<Artificial_Intel> aye, I got some stuff on that topic
<s-fox> Okay :)
<s-fox> [TOPIC] Buffalo Solider sub-forum request
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Buffalo Solider sub-forum request
<s-fox> Personally speaking I don't object to any of the sub-forums being created
<Artificial_Intel> We actually have two request from companies, so lets put them together.
<s-fox> +1, sounds good.
<s-fox> That would be za-reason right?
<Artificial_Intel> aye
<cariboo907> Wouldn't it be better if both of them went through Canonical?
<s-fox> Couldn't we put them where system76 is/
<Artificial_Intel> I was thinking a little re-structure of the forum regarding pre-installed and the alike support forums.
<s-fox> How do you mean cariboo907?  I thought za-reason had already approached canonical
<s-fox> Artificial_Intel,  Would you have all the pre-install in one sub-forum ?
<cariboo907> When that Dell salesman tried to start a thread, we referred him to Canonical
<s-fox> Hmm, that is a fair point cariboo907. Maybe we should point them to canonical
<Artificial_Intel> I agree, companies need approval first from canonical before we make a support forum for them.
<s-fox> In terms of buffalo soldier, he should get his site setup before we do anything
<s-fox> I also notice he has not been on the forum since he made the request. Perhaps see's it as "free advertising" ?
<Artificial_Intel> But my restructure proposal is for the longer term when we get a lot more of this.
<s-fox> Yea, I think if we were to restructure we should get the input from the others
<moergaes> In the thread http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1895853 , most seem to agree.
 * s-fox nods,  but shouldn't za-reason contact canonical ?
<cariboo907> Artificial_Intel, didn't your restructure request get approved, then ignored?
<Artificial_Intel> that was the gaming forum restructure, yes it was approved and ignored (or forgotten)
<s-fox> Does it still need to be done?
 * s-fox thinks Artificial_Intel has the tools to do the job ;)
<Artificial_Intel> Well, I could do it myself :P
<s-fox> Okay, the ubuntu pre-install restructure does sound like the way forward (to me anyway).  Perhaps we should start a thread discussing in with the rest of the staff?
<Artificial_Intel> aye
<s-fox> I know the one moergaes linked is za-reason, but this is more generic.
 * cariboo907 says +1
<s-fox> [VOTE] Discuss ubuntu pre-install sub-forum restructure in the staff area
<meetingology> Please vote on: Discuss ubuntu pre-install sub-forum restructure in the staff area
<meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (private votes don't work yet, but when they do it will be by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0 to me)
<s-fox> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from s-fox
<Artificial_Intel> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from Artificial_Intel
<cariboo907> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from cariboo907
<s-fox> moergaes :)
<moergaes> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from moergaes
<s-fox> [ENDVOTE]
<meetingology> Voting ended on: Discuss ubuntu pre-install sub-forum restructure in the staff area
<meetingology> Votes for:4 Votes against:0 Abstentions:0
<meetingology> Motion carried
<s-fox> [ACTION] Create the discussion thread for more input
<meetingology> ACTION: Create the discussion thread for more input
<s-fox> Oh wait, that should have been agreed.
<s-fox> *sigh
<Artificial_Intel> about the gaming structure, I'll look at it in the holydays
<s-fox> [AGREED] Create the discussion thread for more input
<s-fox> Okay Artificial_Intel, sounds good to me :)
<s-fox> Next item is the Community Council Meeting
<s-fox> [TOPIC] Representative for CC meeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Representative for CC meeting
<s-fox> I cannot make it, the time is wrong.
<s-fox> It is to early for me. 17:00 UTC
<s-fox> Can you make it Artificial_Intel?
<Artificial_Intel> I'm at work at the time.
<Artificial_Intel> *that
<s-fox> Okay, so it will probably have to be Joeb454 or baps that goes. I think the time is super difficult for bodhi and jdong
<Artificial_Intel> baps from France, so she's properly at work too
<s-fox> Yeah, but it would be 6 for her. I am still at work for another hour
<s-fox> Maybe we should contact the CC and see if they can move the time a little ?
<Artificial_Intel> worth a try
<s-fox> Okay, if baps and / or Joeb454 can't make it either we will contact them. I have Laura's email
<s-fox> I guess we could move onto Community Building Ideas
<s-fox> [TOPIC] Community Building Ideas
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Community Building Ideas
<Artificial_Intel> link?
<s-fox> I think we should create the ubuntu forums team
<czajkowski> s-fox: Joeb454 said he'd make the meeting, the meeting is at 5pm UTC can't be changed I'm afraid
<s-fox> czajkowski,  Can the day be changed to say a weekend?
<s-fox> czajkowski,  Thanks for the info on joeb
<czajkowski> no I'm afriad not it happens during the CC meeting, which is kinda fixed tbh given 8 folks on multiple timezones
<s-fox> Okay.
<s-fox> I would like to revive my suggestion from ages ago about a forums team. I have the link somewhere, let me find :)
<Artificial_Intel> ghost from the past :P
<s-fox> [LINK] ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1741789
<s-fox> It had a lot of discussion, get some team spirit going and not just people on their own
<s-fox> Welcome howefield :)
<howefield> hey :)
<cariboo907> s-fox, your link is broken
<moergaes> Worked fine for me.
<s-fox> works for me too ?
<s-fox> Artificial_Intel,  Link work for you?
<Artificial_Intel> aye
<cariboo907> It must just be me :(
<s-fox> Maybe we should just bump it up in the staff area ;)
<Artificial_Intel> As I understands it; Some kind of Super dedicated members to help out helping people?
<s-fox> I seem to recall bodhi wanting to lighten the mood on the forum with a theme week  :)
<s-fox> Artificial_Intel,  Pretty much. You remember the hardware / unanswered posts / beginners team ?
<s-fox> Well imagine all them rolled into one
<Artificial_Intel> aye
<Artificial_Intel> Sounds reasonable.
<s-fox> I think they could be revived under one banner
<s-fox> I'll bump it up :)
<Artificial_Intel> I'll +1 it
<s-fox> I do have one item that is not on the agenda concerning the forum upgrade.
<s-fox> Artificial_Intel,  Did you see the emails I have been forwarding?
<s-fox> We need to establish how many people only use the openid login
<s-fox> I am not sure where to look to find out, but eliott wants to know
<Artificial_Intel> that's going to be difficult
<s-fox> Probably yes :/
<s-fox> I know going down for the upgrade is not going to be a problem.
<Artificial_Intel> those who uses OpenID, don't they have alternative to login untill the forum plugin is resolved?
<s-fox> We can let people know in advance
<s-fox> I think they would need to register like normal user Artificial_Intel.
<cariboo907> I don't use it, because the remember me feature doesn't work
<s-fox> And you can guarantee someone will complain :/
<Artificial_Intel> There's always someone that complain, it's human nature.
<s-fox> +1
<s-fox> You got anything to discuss Artificial_Intel , cariboo907, moergaes & howefield ?
<Artificial_Intel> or any complains? ;)
<moergaes> No, I am mostly just following what's going on.
<cariboo907> nothing here
<howefield> likewise
<s-fox> Okay, think might end the meeting early. It's late friday night for me :)
<s-fox> Sorry only 2 of the FC came :/
<s-fox> But thanks for coming everyone else :)
<moergaes> Thanks for being invited, though not being a council member.
<Artificial_Intel> good to see some staff at the meeting
<s-fox> Yep
<howefield> thanks to the 2 who did turn up
<s-fox> I like having the staff around :)
<s-fox> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Fri Dec 16 22:45:50 2011 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2011/ubuntu-meeting.2011-12-16-22.05.moin.txt
<s-fox> I just ended the meeting
<Artificial_Intel> Now free bar! :D
<s-fox> Joeb454 is paying.
<s-fox> :D
<Artificial_Intel> \o/
<Artificial_Intel> night folks
<s-fox> See you all
<moergaes> Bye
#ubuntu-meeting 2011-12-18
<Toni> :-D
#ubuntu-meeting 2012-12-10
<mdeslaur> jjohansen, tyhicks, sbeattie, micahg: meeting?
<tyhicks> Hello!
<micahg> o/
<mdeslaur> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Mon Dec 10 18:01:41 2012 UTC.  The chair is mdeslaur. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
<mdeslaur> The meeting agenda can be found at:
<mdeslaur> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/Meeting
<mdeslaur> [TOPIC] Announcements
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Announcements
<mdeslaur> thanks to Christian Kuersteiner (ckuerste) for providing debdiffs for oneiric, precise and quantal for pgbouncer!
<mdeslaur> thanks to Stefan Bader (smb) for providing updates for oneiric, precise and quantal for xen!
<mdeslaur> Your work is very much appreciated and will keep Ubuntu users secure. Great job! :)
<mdeslaur> [TOPIC] Weekly stand-up report
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Weekly stand-up report
<mdeslaur> I'll go first
<mdeslaur> I'm on community this week
<mdeslaur> I just finished publishing gimp and mysql
<mdeslaur> and will pick up some more on the list
<mdeslaur> I'm currently triaging the zillion xen CVEs, to clean that up
<mdeslaur> that's about it from me
<mdeslaur> sbeattie: you'reup
<sbeattie> I'm once again working on apparmor display manager stuff
<mdeslaur> sbeattie: making any progress there?
<mdeslaur> are you blocked on anything?
<sbeattie> I'm also finishing up a qrt apparmor issue that the kernel/qa team raised with me.
<sbeattie> mdeslaur: making progress, just slowly
<sbeattie> trying to figure out what infrastructure is needed in the prototype.
<jjohansen> that qrt issue was a nice little race thanks for finding it
<sbeattie> heh sure
<sbeattie> I'll also be off one day this week, on wednesday
<sbeattie> I think that's it for me.
<sbeattie> micahg: you're up
<micahg> I've got webkit updates and chromium still
<mdeslaur> micahg: didn't you have chromium last week? was there something wrong with them?
<micahg> mdeslaur: yeah, I had to kick back the merge proposal as everything wasn't documented well enough in the changelog
<mdeslaur> ok, cool
<micahg> any other questions?
 * micahg is done then
<tyhicks> I'll begin working on the AppArmor policy interface work items this week
<tyhicks> I'm currently testing some kernel, apparmor, and dbus changes that jj made over the weekend
<tyhicks> If I get bogged down with the policy interface work, I will should probably merge in the audit package from experimental
<tyhicks> that's it for me
<tyhicks> jjohansen: you're up
<tyhicks> s/will should/should/
<jjohansen> so, I still need to finish kicking out the apparmor alpha1, I think I am going to drop dbus from it so I don't have to finish the C++ conversion on it
<jjohansen> that will make it just a matter of rolling the current trees into a tarball
<jjohansen> after that its going to be back to getting the base labeling patch out and then the stacking patches on top of it
<mdeslaur> jjohansen: any idea on a timeframe for those?
<jjohansen> mdeslaur: yeah base labeling in the next couple of days, its not quite there but soon, and the stacking needs some rework for the changes made to the labeling patch, but both labeling and stacking will go into alpha2 next week
<mdeslaur> jjohansen: oh, nice :)
<mdeslaur> ok, who's next?
<mdeslaur> hrm, seems that's it
<jjohansen> back to you mdeslaur
<mdeslaur> bunch of vacation taking slackers :)
<mdeslaur> [TOPIC] Highlighted packages
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Highlighted packages
<mdeslaur> The Ubuntu Security team will highlight some community-supported packages that might be good candidates for updating and or triaging. If you would like to help Ubuntu and not sure where to start, this is a great way to do so.
<mdeslaur> See https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/UpdateProcedures for details and if you have any questions, feel free to ask in #ubuntu-security. To find out other ways of helping out, please see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/GettingInvolved.
<mdeslaur> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/rocksndiamonds.html
<mdeslaur> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/osc.html
<mdeslaur> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/jenkins.html
<mdeslaur> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/gnugk.html
<mdeslaur> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/oftc-hybrid.html
<mdeslaur> [TOPIC] Miscellaneous and Questions
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Miscellaneous and Questions
<mdeslaur> Does anyone have any other questions or items to discuss?
<mdeslaur> ok, thanks everyone
<mdeslaur> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Mon Dec 10 18:15:17 2012 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes (wiki):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-12-10-18.01.moin.txt
<meetingology> Minutes (html):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-12-10-18.01.html
<jjohansen> thanks mdeslaur
<tyhicks> thanks!
<sbeattie> mdeslaur: thanks!
 * kees_ looks around
 * xnox feels being watched
<pitti> cjwatson, mdz, stgraber, soren_, kees: TB meeting in 4?
<mdz> hai
<cjwatson> here, but juggling childcare
 * stgraber waves
<solarcloud_3scrn> hi everyone !
<kees> \o
 * pitti hears the school bell ringing
<kees> so, what TZ is this meeting tied to now?
<pitti> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Mon Dec 10 21:01:47 2012 UTC.  The chair is pitti. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
<pitti> (I migth as well)
<pitti> kees: 2100 London time, wasn't that the latest agreement?
<pitti> #topic action review
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: action review
<kees> 2100 _london_, not 2100 utc?
<pitti> kees: yes, otherwise we'd keep changing the actual time for all of us
<solarcloud_3scrn> What is the meeting about ?
<kees> london dst!=us dst, but it's fine. I'm cool
<pitti> the only pending action that we have is the brainstorm reviwe
<pitti> admittedly with the london sprint and its preparation I haven't gotten to this yet, but I'm planning for this tomorrow
<cjwatson> kees: it's wrong for like a week or two a year :)
<pitti> #topic add cinder and quantum packages to existing OpenStack MRE
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: add cinder and quantum packages to existing OpenStack MRE
<pitti> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/technical-board/2012-December/001440.html
<cjwatson> it takes us three meetings to argue about tz changes anyway
<pitti> kees already ack'ed this one, so that's done
<stgraber> kees: it's better to have one week where we may be out of sync than spending two months trying to figure out what our meeting time is :)
<stgraber> bah, what cjwatson said ;)
<pitti> I don't see anythign else on the ML, did I miss anything?
<cjwatson> cinder and quantum seem like shoe-ins to me
<pitti> solarcloud_3scrn: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/TechnicalBoardAgenda
<pitti> solarcloud_3scrn: (not much of an agenda today, though)
<solarcloud_3scrn> ok I'll opt out, bye.
<pitti> #topic AOB
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: AOB
<pitti> anyone?
<solarcloud_3scrn> before I go Ubuntu TV is finally off the shelf ... http://goo.gl/W42gI
<stgraber> lookss like one of those short meetings ;) (nothing here)
<stgraber> *looks
<cjwatson> other than still bouncing slightly about secure boot working on 12.04 at last, I have no other business
<pitti> I guess we'll skip the next meeting on 12/24, and see each other in the next year/
<pitti> ?
<cjwatson> I certainly won't be around at 9pm on Christmas Eve
<stgraber> yeah, I doubt we'll get much to talk about by the 24th anyway and if there's something urgent, we have a mailing-list ;)
<stgraber> (and I won't be around anyway ;))
<pitti> *nod*
<pitti> so, c'est Ã§a
<pitti> thanks and have a nice evening everyone!
<pitti> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Mon Dec 10 21:09:02 2012 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes (wiki):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-12-10-21.01.moin.txt
<meetingology> Minutes (html):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-12-10-21.01.html
<stgraber> thanks!
#ubuntu-meeting 2012-12-11
<smoser> o/
 * arosales doesn't see SpamapS atm
<smb> \o
<jamespage> o/
<Daviey> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Tue Dec 11 16:02:37 2012 UTC.  The chair is Daviey. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
<Daviey> #topic Review ACTION points from previous meeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Review ACTION points from previous meeting
<Daviey> move to http://reqorts.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/rls-mgr/rls-r-tracking-bug-tasks.html#server for release bug tracking
<Daviey> jamespage: ^ this has been done?
<jamespage> yep
<Daviey> cool
<Daviey> move to http://reqorts.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/rls-mgr/rls-r-tracking-bug-tasks.html#server for release bug tracking
<Daviey>  -- Who was this assigned to?
<arosales> I updated the IRC command list just before the meeting
<Daviey> arosales: eh?
<arosales> Daviey: I think the first two were team info on tracking
<Daviey> Oh.. well deprecate http://reqorts.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/ubuntu-server/release-bugs.html hasn't been done
<arosales> the 3rd action item was for me to update the irc command for server meetings
<Daviey> So, i'll do that.. as i already have access.
 * arosales apologizes for not putting an owner with that.
<Daviey> arosales: thanks... oh, don't worry
<arosales> #action Daviey to deprecate http://reqorts.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/ubuntu-server/release-bugs.html
<meetingology> ACTION: Daviey to deprecate http://reqorts.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/ubuntu-server/release-bugs.html
<Daviey> roaksoax to review MAAS bugs, and sync with upstream
<arosales> :-)
<Daviey> heh
<Daviey> so, roaksoax is out.. But it seems to be making progress
<Daviey> hmm, no Robie
<Daviey> rbasak, on the agenda was "roaksoax to review MAAS bugs, and sync with upstream" .. as he is out today.. are you close enough to know how this is going?
<rbasak> I'm not familiar with the current packaging status, sorry
<Daviey> rbasak: ok, thanks.. it was a long shot.
<Daviey> #action Daviey to check with upstream how MAAS bugs are looking
<meetingology> ACTION: Daviey to check with upstream how MAAS bugs are looking
<Daviey> arosales to investigate why status tracker is not picking up servercloud area
<Daviey> arosales: ^?
<arosales> I think we may have missed the cut-off date
 * arosales to follow up with release team on getting the topic blueprints ack'ed back into the status tracker
<Daviey> Hmm, that sounds crappy :)
<arosales> I think release team freezes at feature freeze
<Daviey> #action arosales to follow up with release team on getting the topic blueprints ack'ed back into the status tracker
<meetingology> ACTION: arosales to follow up with release team on getting the topic blueprints ack'ed back into the status tracker
<Daviey> arosales: thanks
<arosales> I *think* that is the issue, but yes I will follow up :-)
<Daviey> jamespage, arosales confirm if https://blueprints.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-server/+upcomingwork should be used in ubuntu-server team IRC meeting for BP status
<arosales> sorry /me didn't have an opportunity to sync up with jamespage
<jamespage> we did not
<arosales> anyone have any thoughts on that?
<Daviey> ok
<jamespage> but as we don't have stuff setup in status.ubuntu.com I think we should use that for the time being
<Daviey> the trouble is ~ubuntu-server has too much noise
<Daviey> it includes people that happen to be in the largely open team
<Daviey> including juju-core, security and probably foundations issues
<arosales> al valid points.
<arosales> all, that is
<arosales> so perhaps that is not a good approach
<jamespage> I think its a useful view from individuals i.e. launchpad.net/~james-page/+upcomingwork
<Daviey> yeah
<Daviey> doesn't scale well for non canonical people tho. :).  Not sure how many non-canonical people signed up to wi's this cycle tho
<Daviey> i know there are some.
<Daviey> #topic Raring development
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Raring development
<Daviey> Release Bugs - http://reports.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/ubuntu-server/release-bugs.html
<Daviey> Is this not deprecated now?
<Daviey> jamespage: ^?
<jamespage> yes
<jamespage> http://reqorts.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/rls-mgr/rls-r-tracking-bug-tasks.html#server
 * Daviey notes to update the wiki
<Daviey> bug 1081212
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1081212 in maas (Ubuntu Quantal) "The address of the API in pserv.conf (tftp/generator) is http://localhost/MAAS/api/1.0/pxeconfig/" [Critical,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1081212
<jamespage> I need to catchup with the report author on that report - as I don't think its the full packageset.
<Daviey> So.. I'm actually going to skip all the maas bugs.. as the best person to answer them is not here this week.
<Daviey> jamespage: right
<jamespage> Daviey, TBH they are all in hand upstream; so that is a good approach
<jamespage> its just dependent on the 1.2 stablisation release being delivered
<jamespage> ~Jan
<Daviey> bug 1076747
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1076747 in quantum (Ubuntu Raring) "The Quantum OVS plugin should not depend on openvswitch-switch " [High,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1076747
<jamespage> committed in the lab; not broken in the archive
<jamespage> trunk broke for a bit in raring
 * jamespage rewinds 
<jamespage> wrong bug - that one is commited in the lab for the next raring upload
<Daviey> ok, cool
<jamespage> ..
<Daviey> bug 1085038
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1085038 in quantum (Ubuntu Raring) "Python Modules : Wrong versions" [High,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1085038
<jamespage> see my incorrect comments
<jamespage> <jamespage> committed in the lab; not broken in the archive
<jamespage>  trunk broke for a bit in raring
<Daviey> bug 671065
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 671065 in dovecot (Ubuntu) "deliver broken because dovecot.conf uses !include_try" [Medium,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/671065
 * jamespage hides
 * Daviey looks at the report date
<jamespage> sorry - I started looking at that one and got distracted
<Daviey> heh
<Daviey> looks like it's in progress, with a patch needing forward porting?
<jamespage> yeah
<jamespage> hence why I hid
<Daviey> heh
 * jamespage berates himself for being slack about that one
<Daviey> heh
<Daviey> bug 1066845 - zul?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1066845 in nova (Ubuntu Raring) "nova-novncproxy is not running; Suggest: novnc should be Depends" [Low,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1066845
<zul> ill update it
<Daviey> bug 1086833 - yolanda.  Seems to be making good progress
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1086833 in nova (Ubuntu Raring) "All nova upstart configuration use 'su' instead of 'start-stop-daemon'" [Medium,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1086833
 * Daviey repeats, as the devil is here
<Daviey> bug 1086833 - yolanda.  Seems to be making good progress
<Daviey>  ubottu> Launchpad bug 1086833 in nova (Ubuntu Raring) "All nova upstart configuration use 'su' instead of 'start-stop-daemon'" [Medium,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1086833
<ubottu> Daviey: I am only a bot, please don't think I'm intelligent :)
<Daviey> Any other bugs that are release trackable?
<Daviey> ok
<Daviey> Blueprints - http://status.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-quantal/group/topic-raring-servercloud-overview.html
<jamespage> I'm sure there are plenty - please can everyone remember to raise tasks for raring - that way they get on the report
<Daviey> 404 :)
<Daviey> thanks jamespage
<Daviey> so.. blueprints.
<Daviey> smoser, jamespage and myself have been going through them
<Daviey> Generally, they are looking good.. but there are a bunch that needed some work
<Daviey> Comments were made
<Daviey> (at least for the ones i am approver for)
<Daviey> I didn't really dig into the ones arosales is approver for.. can you comment on yours?
<arosales> we still need to properly spec out a few
<arosales> but no comments here
<Daviey> ok.
<Daviey> so.. servercloud-r-openstack-docs - koolhead17.. needs work.. empty spec so far
<Daviey> servercloud-r-openstack-sru - zul - is it rich enough in detail?
<zul> yes
<Daviey> are you certain? :)
<Daviey> (hint)
<Daviey> servercloud-r-userns - hallyn - requested to be dropped, merged with another.
<hallyn> yup
<Daviey> servercloud-r-virt-powerpc - BenC - Currently empty, if still null by EOW, will drop.
<Daviey> servercloud-r-webscale - SpamapS - Think this needs a new owner?  Not yet confirmed with Clint, but assuming it does, any volunteer?
<Daviey> (apply via a self addressed envelope to my PO BOX address)
<jamespage> Daviey, throw that one at me; I'll hack it back and do the essentials
<Daviey> j\o/)
<smoser> nice, mr page.
<Daviey> done.
 * jamespage gets the hachett out
<jamespage> chop chop chop[
<Daviey> heh..
<Daviey> #topic Ubuntu Server Team Events
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Server Team Events
<Daviey> No events are jumping out at me?
<Daviey> robbiew @ Dell World, Austin tomorrow.. doing an awesome talk first thing..
<arosales> Lisa this week
<arosales> I think negronjl is giving a BOF there
<robbiew> yeah..."awesome" indeed
<robbiew> not even on the schedule :/
<robbiew> lol
<Daviey> #topic Weekly Updates & Questions for the QA Team (hggdh)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Weekly Updates & Questions for the QA Team (hggdh)
<Daviey> hggdh or anyone from QA here to represent ?
 * Daviey crosses his fingers.
<jamespage> Daviey, actually I have something
<jamespage> dholbach has organized an autopkgtest hackfest this thursday
<Daviey> Oh yes!
<jamespage> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/QATeam/RequiredTests
<jamespage> for the list of tests
<jamespage> and https://wiki.ubuntu.com/QATeam/AutomatedTesting/Hackfest
<jamespage> for the details
<dholbach> feel free to update and add to the pages
<dholbach> and obviously be there in #ubuntu-quality on Thursday
<jamespage> would be nice to see everyone knock of at least one test; these are a good opportunity to put other things down for a few hours and focus on something specific
<Daviey> thanks dholbach for organising this!
<jamespage> thanks dholbach
<Daviey> jamespage: Annnnnnd.. where can i find a list of tests that need writing ?
<dholbach> I might grab you for an hangout-on-air where you can show off some of your work and get people involved
<dholbach> anytime
<Daviey> <--- stooge
<jamespage> Daviey, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/QATeam/RequiredTests
<jamespage> we also have a blueprint
<dholbach> there'll be 2 more hackfests this cycle
<jamespage> https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/servercloud-r-seeded-qa-workflow
<Daviey> jamespage: thanks
<Daviey> Nobody from QA, and nothing else to add?
<jamespage> ...
<dholbach> (and here's how to write tests: http://developer.ubuntu.com/packaging/html/auto-pkg-test.html)
<Daviey> \o/
<Daviey> #topic Weekly Updates & Questions for the Kernel Team (smb)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Weekly Updates & Questions for the Kernel Team (smb)
<smb> Not much to report this week. Done some pulling of Xen sercurity
<smb> updates. Also updated the http://people.canonical.com/~smb/lucid-ec2-ng
<smb> kernels after master had been updated. Did some testing on a c1.medium
<smb> instance where I saw no issues. Have not heard any reports other than
<smb> cc1 (=HVM) instance does not work which was not working with the ec2
<smb> branch either. ;)
<smb> ..
<Daviey> wow, smb, as efficient as ever
<smb> As long as I can prepare... :)
<Daviey> There is an ongoing conversation of the kernel version for precise, next point release.  More details to follow next week.
<Daviey> Any kernel questions for smb?
<smb> Daviey, In that case without me
<Daviey> smb: You are AWOL next week? :o
<smb> Daviey, This is my last working week this year. :-P
<Daviey> smb: glad to hear it :)
<Daviey> smb: Are you looking to handle the xen merge?
<smb> Daviey, which xen merge?
<Daviey> THE xen merge.
<smb> Daviey, You mean the xen-4.2 + qemu-dm which is uploaded to proposed?
<Daviey> 4.1.3-3ubuntu1 -> 4.1.3-6
<Daviey> or experimental ? http://packages.debian.org/changelogs/pool/main/x/xen/current/changelog
<smb> Daviey, Since when do we do this for SRU?
<Daviey> I have NFI why it's in experimental.. could just be because Debian are in freeze.. or could be more
<Daviey> smb: raring. :)
<smb> Daviey, Well raring will be 4.2!
<smb> And that is in proposed
<Daviey> Ah!
<Daviey> Again, more efficient than i could hope for.
<Daviey> :)
<smb> Heh
<Daviey> Do we know what is keeping it in raring-proposed?
<smb> I think it was xcp-xapi which zul was trying to thake care of
<zul> yeah im almost done
<Daviey> #ACTION zul and smb to work together to get xen in raring-release
<meetingology> ACTION: zul and smb to work together to get xen in raring-release
<Daviey> thanks
<Daviey> Anything else for smb?
<Daviey> thank you smb
<Daviey> #topic Weekly Updates & Questions regarding Ubuntu ARM Server (rbasak)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Weekly Updates & Questions regarding Ubuntu ARM Server (rbasak)
<rbasak> I'm working on verifying a quantal SRU, as ARM server installers are currently completely broken on quantal at the moment. This is bug 1084106. Nothing else to report. Any questions for me?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1084106 in The Eilt project "highbank installer broken" [Undecided,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1084106
<Daviey> rbasak: maas & arm looking good?
<Daviey> for the hope-for'd SRU's?
<rbasak> I believe it was working well as of three days ago. I've not checked for my last change being SRU'd, but we don't need that until our next hardware enablement which I don't think will happen for a couple of weeks at least.
<Daviey> Super, thanks rbasak. :)
<Daviey> #topic Open Discussion
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Open Discussion
<Daviey> Anything else pending?
<zul> i still like turles
 * rbasak likes turles too
<rbasak> (BTW, what are turles? :-P
<m_3> turtles? huh?
 * TheLordOfTime yawns
<smoser> rbasak, cloud-init SRU landed in precise-proposed
<rbasak> \o/
<Daviey> woot
<rbasak> I did wonder about that
<smoser> so the "arm mirror" stuff should "just owrk" now.
<smoser> that is thanks to mr slangasek
<rbasak> smoser: will you be dropping the ephemeral image hack when that's in?
<smoser> that would make sense
<rbasak> (in which case I'll want to test for a regression when you do)
<smoser> anyone who wants to help test https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/precise/+source/cloud-init would be wonderful.
<hallyn> pls to test new qemu packages in ppa:serge-hallyn/crossc in raring :)
<smoser> (anything fix-committed needs testing)
<rbasak> smoser: do you  have a -proposed daily cloud image or anything like that?
 * Daviey moves on?
<smb> Daviey, got 7 minutes
<Daviey> we can have a 6 minute party then
<Daviey> #topic Announce next meeting date and time
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Announce next meeting date and time
<Daviey> Shall we have one in 2 weeks?
<Daviey> or 3 weeks?
<TheLordOfTime> two week's right in the middle of US holidays you know, not that there's many US people on the server team
<Daviey> So xmas day, or new years day?
<Daviey> 25th is 2 weeks, 1st is 3 weeks
<TheLordOfTime> isnt xmas day a family day?  probably new years'll be more... logi...
<TheLordOfTime> wait...
<TheLordOfTime> ... i'd assume the 25th is just a bad date for the meeting, but the 1st isnt that much better...
<Daviey> Okay, lets go for the 8th.. Wow.
<Daviey> same time
<Daviey> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Tue Dec 11 16:56:36 2012 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes (wiki):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-12-11-16.02.moin.txt
<meetingology> Minutes (html):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-12-11-16.02.html
<Daviey> thanks
<jamespage> ta Daviey
<arosales> Thanks Daviey for chairing
<negronjl> arosales: yup ... I'll be there for the Juju BOF
<jsalisbury> #startmeeting
<jsalisbury> ##
<jsalisbury> ## This is the Ubuntu Kernel Team weekly status meeting.
<jsalisbury> ##
<jsalisbury> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/Meeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Tue Dec 11 17:00:38 2012 UTC.  The chair is jsalisbury. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
<jsalisbury> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/ReleaseStatus/raring
<jsalisbury> # Meeting Etiquette
<jsalisbury> #
<jsalisbury> # NOTE: '..' indicates that you are finished with your input.
<jsalisbury> #       'o/' indicates you have something to add (please wait until you are recognized)
<jsalisbury> Roll Call for Ubuntu Kernel Weekly Status Meeting
<cking> o/
<ppisati> o/
<ogasawara> o/
<sforshee> o/
<smb> \o
<apw> o/
<sconklin> o/
<rtg> o/
<arges> o/
<herton> \o
<henrix> o/
<bjf> o/
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] ARM Status (ppisati)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: ARM Status (ppisati)
<ppisati> nothing to report this week.
<ppisati> ..
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] Release Metrics and Incoming Bugs (jsalisbury)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Release Metrics and Incoming Bugs (jsalisbury)
<jsalisbury> Release metrics and incoming bug data can be reviewed at the following link:
<jsalisbury> [LINK] http://people.canonical.com/~kernel/reports/kt-meeting.txt
<jsalisbury> ..
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] Milestone Targeted Work Items (ogasawara)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Milestone Targeted Work Items (ogasawara)
<ogasawara> [LINK] https://launchpad.net/~canonical-kernel-distro-team/+upcomingwork
<ogasawara> || apw         || hardware-r-kernel-config-review       || 9 work items ||
<ogasawara> ||             || hardware-r-kernel-misc                || 3 work items ||
<ogasawara> ||             || foundations-r-secure-boot             || 1 work item  ||
<ogasawara> ||             || desktop-r-clean-old-kernels           || 1 work item  ||
<ogasawara> || ogasawara   || hardware-r-kernel-config-review       || 2 work items ||
<ogasawara> ||             || hardware-r-arm-power-measurement      || 1 work item  ||
<ogasawara> || ppisati     || hardware-r-kernel-config-review       || 1 work item  ||
<ogasawara> ||             || hardware-r-kernel-version-and-flavors || 2 work items ||
<ogasawara> || sconklin    || hardware-r-arm-power-measurement      || 3 work items ||
<ogasawara> || rtg         || hardware-r-kernel-config-review       || 1 work item  ||
<ogasawara> ..
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] Status: Raring Development Kernel (ogasawara)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Status: Raring Development Kernel (ogasawara)
<ogasawara> We have recently rebased the Raring kernel to upstream v3.7 final and
<ogasawara> uploaded.
<ogasawara> Important upcoming dates:
<ogasawara>  * Tues Dec 18 - 13.04 Month 2 Milestone (1 week)
<ogasawara>  * Thur Dec 27 - 12.04.2 Kernel Source Freeze (~2 weeks)
<ogasawara> ..
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] Status: CVE's (henrix)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Status: CVE's (henrix)
<henrix> Currently we have 29 CVEs on our radar, with 0 CVE added and 3 CVEs retired this week.
<henrix> See the CVE matrix for the current list:
<henrix> [LINK] http://people.canonical.com/~kernel/cve/pkg/ALL-linux.html
<henrix> Overall the backlog has decreased slightly this week:
<henrix> [LINK] http://people.canonical.com/~kernel/status/cve-metrics.txt
<henrix> [LINK] http://people.canonical.com/~kernel/cve/pkg/CVE-linux.txt
<henrix> ..
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] Status: Stable, Security, and Bugfix Kernel Updates - Quantal/Precise/Oneiric/Lucid/Hardy (bjf/herton/henrix)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Status: Stable, Security, and Bugfix Kernel Updates - Quantal/Precise/Oneiric/Lucid/Hardy (bjf/herton/henrix)
<henrix> Here is the status for the main kernels, until today (December 11):
<henrix>  * Hardy - Released; 1 CVEs; (1 commits)
<henrix>  * Lucid - Released; 1 CVEs; (1 commits)
<henrix>  * Oneiric - In Verification; 1 CVEs; 2 upstream stable release(s); (78 commits)
<henrix>  * Precise - In Verification; 1 CVEs; 1 upstream stable release(s); (87 commits)
<henrix>  * Quantal - In Preparation; 1 CVEs; 1 upstream stable release(s); (309 commits)
<henrix> Current opened tracking bugs details:
<henrix>  * http://people.canonical.com/~kernel/reports/kernel-sru-workflow.html
<henrix> For SRUs, SRU report is a good source of information:
<henrix>  * http://people.canonical.com/~kernel/reports/sru-report.html
<henrix> Future stable cadence cycles:
<henrix>  * https://wiki.ubuntu.com/RaringRingtail/ReleaseInterlock
<henrix> ..
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] Open Discussion or Questions? Raise your hand to be recognized (o/)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Open Discussion or Questions? Raise your hand to be recognized (o/)
<jsalisbury> The next meeting won't be until after the new year.  I'll send out an email reminder.
<jsalisbury> Thanks everyone
<jsalisbury> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Tue Dec 11 17:04:57 2012 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes (wiki):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-12-11-17.00.moin.txt
<meetingology> Minutes (html):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-12-11-17.00.html
<cking> thanks jsalisbury
<xilus> Sorry I'm lae
<xilus> late
<xilus> hello.. oh oh oh oh oh
<xilus> hello. echo echo echo echo
<xilus> is anybody out there er er er er
<MrChrisDruif> no there isn't xilus us us us...
<MrChrisDruif> ;-)
#ubuntu-meeting 2012-12-12
 * slangasek waves
<infinity> o/
 * stgraber waves
<slangasek> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Wed Dec 12 16:02:08 2012 UTC.  The chair is slangasek. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
<slangasek> [TOPIC] lightning round
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: lightning round
<slangasek> $ echo $(shuf -e barry doko stgraber jodh ev bdmurray slangasek ogra cjwatson xnox stokachu)
<slangasek> barry cjwatson ev stgraber stokachu xnox ogra doko slangasek bdmurray jodh
<barry> win!
<barry> bug 1061149 (more debugging, seems related to landscape). bug 1077076 (oneconf ported to py3 landed in trunk, bug 1088536 m-p for packaging). bug 1088535.  patch piloting (status sent to mlist).  done.
<infinity> Isn't ogra on holidays?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1061149 in lightdm (Ubuntu) "boot occasionally hangs while "Checking battery state..."" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1061149
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1077076 in oneconf (Ubuntu) "Switch from python-oauth to python-oauthlib" [High,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1077076
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1088536 in oneconf (Ubuntu) "Updating packaging for Python 3" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1088536
<slangasek> yes, as is jodh
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1088535 in oneconf (Ubuntu) "Two test failures" [High,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1088535
<slangasek> and stokachu is also not making the meeting today
<cjwatson> Knocked out for part of this week by persistent cough/cold.
<cjwatson> Further progress on 12.04 SB backport.  Seems to be mostly done now.
<cjwatson> Fixed some embarrassingly old debconf regressions from work I did on dpkg-reconfigure earlier this year.
<cjwatson> Half a dozen more cross-building fixes.
<cjwatson> debmirror patch to limit mirroring to arbitrary field names by package.
<cjwatson> Started work on publishing package set information in archive index files.
<cjwatson> Followed up to Jean-Baptiste's autopkgtest integration mail with a few questions; should be able to start proposed-migration work after getting those answers.
<cjwatson> Helped out with Upstart 1.6.1 release.
<cjwatson> ..
<ev> This is going to be a long one. Maybe go fetch yourself a nice hot kwahfee â
<ev> Week of December 6th
<ev> - Ubuntu Error Tracker sprint. Wrap up email forthcoming.
<ev>   - Managed to get through most of the sprint agenda:
<ev>     https://docs.google.com/a/canonical.com/document/d/1BWOIRdJvUueJa4cWV68UEY3nlmHgAVJY6aNGo6YSCQg/edit?pli=1#
<ev>   - We came up with an implementation plan for stopping phased updates:
<ev>     https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ErrorTracker/PhasedUpdates
<ev>   - And server-side hooks. This will let you request that additional
<ev>     information be sent for a package or problem (bucket ID) automatically, or
<ev>     request that a user file a bug in Launchpad with a link back to the error
<ev>     tracker, so that you have someone to converse with:
<ev>     https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ErrorTracker/ServerSideHooks
<ev>   - Thanks to Martin, we now have end-to-end system tests up and running on
<ev>     canonistack \o/:
<ev>     https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ErrorTracker/Deployment
<ev>   - Did code review for Brian and Martin, and countless pastebin discussions
<ev>     over IRC.
<ev>     - We're going to be setting up Tarmac on canonistack to drive the end to
<ev>       end system testing on each new merge proposal. This is blocked on us
<ev>       getting canonistack credentials for the Tarmac instance, so that it can
<ev>       drive juju to spin up the nodes for testing (RT 57881).
<ev>   - We also did some pair programming (crowded around my laptop - damn you
<ev>     tmux) to create a mapping between bugs and crash signatures:
<ev>     lp:~ev/errors/bug-to-crash-signature
<ev>   - We're moving the retracers to prodstack (RT 58019) after doing some
<ev>     investigations around a copy on write backend using LVM or overlayfs. This
<ev>     will fix the disk space problems we've been encountering, according to
<ev>     James.
<ev>   - Worked on improving error handling around open ID logins. I've also
<ev>     restricted access to the full stack traces to just
<ev>     ~canonical-ubuntu-engineering, per James' request (bug 1087361). In a later
<ev>     change, which I'm working on, we'll provide sanitised stack traces and
<ev>     instance pages for anyone in ~ubuntu-bugcontrol to view.
<ubottu> Error: Launchpad bug 1087361 could not be found
<ev>   - Worked through the implementation plan for a view of all the errors that
<ev>     your team is responsible for with Brian.
<ev>   - Came up with a plan to handle statistical noise from more developers using
<ev>     a particular error type or a bug fix causing more reports of a particular
<ev>     error type.
<ev>   - Worked with Ivanka to come up with more friendly messaging and started to
<ev>     build a persona for communicating errors to the user (think of the Google
<ev>     Chrome robot).
<ev>   - Call with Rick to fill him in on the sprint's progress.
<ev>   - Came up with a plan for receiving crashes from unpackaged software (like
<ev>     Steam games).
<ev>   - Came up with a plan to clean up the chain of bug duplicates as it relates
<ev>     to errors.ubuntu.com (this will provide steady footing for the 'prompting
<ev>     for software updates for the crashes they fix' functionality):
<ev>     https://bugs.launchpad.net/errors/+bug/1086754
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 1086754 in Apport "Some linked bug reports are private duplicates" [Medium,Triaged]
<ev>   - We decided there's no programmatic way of untangling errors from libraries
<ev>     and the applications that consume them, but will surface likely library
<ev>     issues using map/reduce jobs:
<ev>     https://bugs.launchpad.net/errors/+bug/1072854
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 1072854 in Errors "Handle bugs in libraries better" [High,Confirmed]
<ev>   - Talked through the security implications of allowing users to see their
<ev>     crashes given just the system UUID. We could technically blacklist any IP
<ev>     with multiple 404s against the system page (brute force SHA512 guessing),
<ev>     but we'll likely just let users see a table of basic information about each
<ev>     crash. Providing further access would imply also letting them delete the
<ev>     data, which has the same trust problem of not absolutely knowing the person
<ev>     viewing the data is the owner.
<ev>   - Came up with a really nice solution with James (RT 55518) for providing a
<ev>     secondary/analytics cluster and a development cluster using sstableloader
<ev>     and single beefy machines to represent each additional cluster. This
<ev>     creates one directional pipes of the data from the core Cassandra cluster
<ev>     to each additional cluster. So it means we cannot use the analytics cluster
<ev>     to do back population. We'll therefore still install Hadoop on the core
<ev>     cluster as well, and just use it for the back population map/reduce jobs
<ev>     (putting all other M/R jobs on the analytics cluster).
<ev>   - We came up with several actionable items for getting more teams using
<ev>     errors.ubuntu.com. If you have any ideas on this, do let me know! I really
<ev>     want to ensure everyone has at least considered making it part of their
<ev>     daily routine and know what the blockers are to people using it more.
<ev> - Attended a Cassandra London meetup on moving from MongoDB to Cassandra.
<ev>   - Full report forthcoming, but here are my notes (there may also be a video
<ev>     at some point):
<ev>     http://paste.ubuntu.com/1427650/
<ev>   - Met a few guys from Meta Broadcast after their talk. They seem well suited
<ev>     for juju, so I've sent them along to Jorge. They also want to work with us
<ev>     on bringing multimedia to the dash and TV, so I set up their CEO with John
<ev>     L.
<ev>   - From talking to some other Hadoop users at the meetup, I learned that the
<ev>     released version of Pig has a number of thorny issues that can be avoided
<ev>     by building from trunk.
<ev>   - No one has a better idea of how to recreate a Column Family with the
<ev>     correct comparators other than just pointing all requests at both the old
<ev>     and the new CF while siphoning off data from the old into the new as a
<ev>     background task.
<ev> - Started fleshing out tasks to complete at the end and beginning of each
<ev>   release:
<ev>   https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ErrorTracker/UbuntuReleasePreparation
<ev> - Chased down getting http://graphite.engineering.ubuntu.com up and running,
<ev>   which is now is! Filed RT 57837 for a graph of column family sizes, per
<ev>   James' request. Filed RT 58016 for getting a statsd instances feeding
<ev>   Cassandra timeouts and errors.ubuntu.com access data into graphite.
<ev> - Moved packages from my personal PPA to the new daisy-pluckers daisy-seeds
<ev>   PPA, pulling in changes from raring where possible.
<ev> - Tested and pushed out a new pycassa to the retracers. This will hopefully
<ev>   help us understand why we're seeing only a single retry on Cassandra
<ev>   connection attempts when we have it explicitly set to 5.
<ev> - Countless other things. It's been a very busy two weeks and I'm still trying
<ev>   to get everything codified on the wiki, in bugs, in RT tickets, and in a big
<ev>   writeup of all the progress we've made. The sprint was one of the most
<ev>   productive weeks of my time at Canonical and I was elated to hear that Rick
<ev>   made a point of keeping money in the budget for small-group sprints in 2013.
<ev>   A massive thanks to Steve, Rick, and Pete for approving this and Brian,
<ev>   Martin, Dmitrijs, Ivanka, and James for lending their time.
<ev> done \o/
<stgraber>  - Upstart
<stgraber>   - Some cleanup of the prctl branch, sent an e-mail to upstart-devel and ted about it, waiting for final review.
<stgraber>   - Dug into the libnih dbus code generator and fixed the 'as' type issue, sent MP, reviewd and accepted by James, still needs uploading.
<stgraber>   - Merged gdbus port of the dconf bridge, cleaned up the code a bit after that.
<stgraber>  - Container
<stgraber>   - Quite a lot of code review for patches being sent upstream.
<stgraber>   - Did a lot of code cleanup, dropped any hardcoded path in the code, using autoconf everywhere.
<stgraber>   - Updated the upstream documentation for the new contribution workflow.
<stgraber>   - Improved locking in lxc-create to allow for concurent creation of containers using different templates.
<stgraber>   - Update python bindings for the new set/get_cgroup_item API, rebased some of the code on the new API.
<stgraber>   - Discussed the release plan upstream and sent the 0.9~alpha1 pull request to Daniel.
<stgraber>   - Finished porting arkose to python3, released 1.6 and uploaded to the archive.
<stgraber>  - Release
<stgraber>   - Released alpha-1 for Edubuntu and Kubuntu.
<stgraber>   - Fixed a few bugs in the QA Tracker related to images auto-publishing based on manifest.
<stgraber>   - Extended the manifest in the tracker to support an active/disabled flag so entries can remain on the manifest even when not planned for release in the current milestone.
<stgraber>  - Networking
<stgraber>   - Wrote patch to make bridge-utils work with any init system (well, at least sysvinit and upstart)
<stgraber>   - Uploaded a new ifenslave-2.6 fixing all the remaining bugs on Launchpad.
<stgraber>   - Uploaded a new ifupdown fixing a bunch of bugs in ifupdown and the upstart jobs, changes forwarded to Debian.
<stgraber>   - Went through bridge-utils and vlan bugs.
<stgraber>   - Reviewed redhat's fiberchannel patchset for isc-dhcp, will need quite a lot of changes to apply.
<stgraber>  - Other
<stgraber>   - Did some more precise UEFI secureboot testing for Colin, it actually works now!
<stgraber>  - TODO
<stgraber>   - Upload new libnih.
<stgraber>   - Add test for Restarted event to the dbus-events upstart branch and propose for merging.
<stgraber>   - Go through the isc-dhcp and resolvconf bugs.
<stgraber>   - Try to apply redhat's fiberchannel patchset to our isc-dhcp.
<stgraber>   - Figure out how to build the shim locally and sign it with a local key, then work with slangasek to figure out what's the exact bug I'm having.
<stgraber>  - Travel/Sprint/...
<stgraber>   - I'll have a slightly weird work schedule on Friday as I'll be traveling to Montreal, will still be working as usual and be available on IRC.
<stgraber>   - I'm arriving in Europe on Saturday (15th) and will be back in Canada on the 2nd of January.
<stgraber>   - Monday through Wednesday next week, we'll have an upstart sprint on European time.
<stgraber>   - Thursday I'll be working as usual but on European time.
<stgraber>   - Then I'll be off from Friday (21st) until I'm back in Canada on the 2nd of January.
<stgraber>   - So if you need anything non-upstart related from me this year, make sure to talk to me this week or Thursday next week.
<stgraber> (DONE)
<slangasek> ev: why are we damning tmux?
<ev> slangasek: because setting up multiuser tmux was eating up way too much time
<slangasek> ev: ah, so tmux isn't actually better than screen :)
<ev> slangasek: it has a real fun time trying to negotiate the screen size
<xnox> slangasek: and /me killing the group session by accident did not help either.
<ev> slangasek: if anyone exits tmux, EVERYONE DIES
<slangasek> ev: +1 on retracers moving to prodstack - very cool
<ev> slangasek: yup! We're moving the whole stack minus cassandra, actually
<ev> just talked through it with Tom
<xnox> * Fix UTAH ISO smoke testing:
<xnox>   - correct bind mounts for DHCP (bug 1061242)
<xnox>   - re-enable wubi test (lp:~xnox/utah/wubi-still-exists)
<xnox>   - pep8 fixes (lp:~xnox/utah/new-pep8)
<xnox> * Requesting separate & more comprehensive static ISO image validation
<xnox>   in UTAH without blocking other tests (bug 1088444)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1061242 in ubiquity (Ubuntu) "apt-install fails during success-command because target environment cannot resolve DNS" [High,Incomplete] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1061242
<xnox> * Fix racy upstart test for dep8, but a different one failed in
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1088444 in UTAH "ISO static validation non-critical tests" [Low,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1088444
<xnox>   jenkins =( (bug 1089159)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1089159 in upstart (Ubuntu) "ADT test-suite failure" [Medium,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1089159
<xnox> * Upload new procenv and identify cause for upstart test suite failure
<xnox>   in debian on amd64/xfs
<xnox> * Fix above with a libnih merge proposal (bug 672643)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 672643 in libnih "make test fails on xfs filesystem" [Low,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/672643
<xnox> * Verify ubiquity SRUs (bug 792652) (bug 887879) (bug 1027648)
<xnox>   (bug 1055967) (bug 1070427)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 792652 in ubiquity (Ubuntu Precise) "ubiquity crashed with ValueError in command(): I/O operation on closed file" [High,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/792652
<xnox> * Add quantal/raring to manpages.ubuntu.com and file RT#57985 for
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 887879 in ubiquity (Ubuntu Precise) "ubiquity crashed with ValueError in raw_decode(): No JSON object could be decoded" [Medium,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/887879
<xnox>   deployment
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1027648 in ubiquity (Ubuntu Precise) "ubiquity crashed with ValueError in command(): I/O operation on closed file." [High,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1027648
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1055967 in ubiquity (Ubuntu Precise) "ubiquity kde frontend is broken in current kubuntu daily builds" [Critical,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1055967
<xnox> * Made merge proposal to avoid partman hanging in the reuse/replace
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1070427 in ubiquity (Ubuntu Quantal) "Ubiquity removes kernel headers, fails to build nonfree drivers" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1070427
<xnox>   recipes. (bug 1085991)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1085991 in ubiquity (Ubuntu) "Partitioning options do not come up in ubiquity & d-i" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1085991
<xnox> * Upstart continuing to add support in upstart to parse and load
<xnox>   config sources for user sessions.
<xnox> done.
<xnox> ogra is off, doko?
<doko> - getting gcc-4.7 cross built (just needed two upstream fixes)
<doko> - trying to understand cross build setups
<doko> - modifying the armhf cross compiler to install into a different location than t
<doko> he armhf native compiler
<doko> - more gcc-4.7 packaging changes, fallout from the libxxx-4.7-dev splits, that s
<doko> hould be all for now
<doko> - moving the gcc-4.7 changes to gcc-4.8
<doko> - python m-a same/allowed changes
<doko> - gcc-linaro merge
<doko> (done)
<slangasek>  * Processing SRU backlog for precise; the X backport stack is now in
<slangasek>  * Ongoing discussions about the UEFI Samsung bricking bug.  Possibly an issue with the samsung-laptop module.
<slangasek>  * Helped get upstart 1.6.1 ready for raring
<slangasek>  * TODO:
<slangasek>   * updating shim for: MOK support, fixing noisiness on boot, trying to debug stgraber's unsigned kernel boot bug
<slangasek>   * looking at getting edk2 (ovmf) packaged for raring
<slangasek> (done)
<stgraber> slangasek: do you already have a branch of the new shim that I could build+sign here and try to boot?
<slangasek> stgraber: no, will try to do that today
<bdmurray> crashdb sprint (lots of discussions there)
<bdmurray> wrote pycassa code to query cassandra crashdb over an ssh tunnel
<bdmurray> pushed new version of whoopsie fixing bug 1084311
<bdmurray> worked on fixing bug 1078801 and sorting of package versions on buckets page
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1084311 in Whoopsie "modifies .uploaded time every time whoopsie starts" [Medium,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1084311
<bdmurray> updated bug 1088587 (apport/errors) with research
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1078801 in Errors "Not clear which Ubuntu versions an error affects" [Medium,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1078801
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1088587 in Apport "crashes still appearing regarding os.unlink(uploaded)" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1088587
<bdmurray> reported and fixed bug 1089083 regarding version ordering on buckets page of errors
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1089083 in Errors "versions on bucket page are not ordered" [Medium,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1089083
<bdmurray> pushed errors branch fixing html title on buckets page - bug 1086796
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1086796 in Errors "html title does not change" [Medium,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1086796
<bdmurray> pushed daisy branch fixing UnicodeEncodeError regarding DupeSig
<bdmurray> pushed errors branch to view bucketids with unicode in them
<bdmurray> tested a new rollout of errors and daisy with thedac
<bdmurray> updated bug bot on cranberry to comment on ubiquity bug reports
<bdmurray> discovered an issue with the SRU for bug 1084296
<bdmurray> SRU verification of bug 1084296 and bug 1084996
<bdmurray> SRU verification of bug 1048059
<bdmurray> with slangasek clean-up of the old unverified SRUs
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1084296 in apport (Ubuntu Quantal) "possible for a 2nd occurrence of a crash not to be sent to errors" [High,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1084296
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1084996 in apport (Ubuntu Quantal) " StacktraceAddressSignature is missing" [Undecided,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1084996
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1048059 in udisks "Adding ACLs to /media/$user does not work" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1048059
<bdmurray> merging and testing fix for bug 1071388
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1071388 in ubuntu-release-upgrader (Ubuntu Quantal) "UnicodeDecodeError in askYesNoQuestion of DistUpgradeViewText.py" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1071388
<ev> ow, my highlight
<bdmurray> â doneâ
<slangasek> any questions over the above?
<xnox> bdmurray: what did ubiquity bug commenter bot learned to do?
<bdmurray> xnox: set crashes to high, tag bugs with the release and ubiquity version, mark hardware errors as invalid, tell oneiric installers to try precise
<bdmurray> xnox: probably some more stuff too
<bdmurray> xnox: it had be accidentally disabled for a bit :-(
<slangasek> [TOPIC] Bugs
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Bugs
<xnox> bdmurray: i see. thanks.
<slangasek> bdmurray: any bugs we should be worrying about?
<bdmurray> xnox: we can talk about it more later if you'd like
<bdmurray> slangasek: not specifically however generally where does bug 1087630 belong?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1087630 in ubuntu-meta (Ubuntu) "server minimal virtual installations are bloated" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1087630
<infinity> ubuntu-meta, but assigned to the server team.
<slangasek> bdmurray: right, what infinity said
<bdmurray> okay, thanks
<bdmurray> it actually looks like an issue with the qa team setup from what I can tell
<xnox> bdmurray: and I think jamespage was looking into that. E.g. the testing framework makes the minimal install bloated, not the installation itself.
<bdmurray> this is interesting but I'll dig into it
<bdmurray> https://errors.ubuntu.com/bucket/?id=%2Fusr%2Fbin%2Fsoftware-properties-gtk%3ASystemError%3A%3Cmodule%3E%3A__init__%3A__init__%3Aopen
 * xnox ponders if d-i can report total used space after tasksel but before late-commands.... or somehow subtract testing overlay size.
<slangasek> bdmurray: interesting indeed; I've got nothing, will leave you to dig into it :)
<slangasek> anything else?
<bdmurray> the Problem with MergeList issue shouldn't happen in 12.10 iirc
<slangasek> well, this one looks at least superficially different from the ones we had before
<slangasek> claiming that a record in the file is invalid
<xnox> en%5fUS is interesting ending of the filename. why is it processing translations?
<infinity> That's just straight up stream/file corruption, isn't it?
<infinity> Not that apt/libapt/python-apt shouldn't deal with that tons better than it currently does, but...
<slangasek> xnox: because the translations should also be merged into the database that you see with 'apt-cache show' etc?
<slangasek> infinity: it's a bit surprising for that to happen so frequently with that one URL
<slangasek> er, assuming it's all that one url
<xnox> slangasek: and I don't see any en_US translations present for quantal multiverse here http://archive.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/dists/quantal/multiverse/i18n/
<infinity> Oh, indeed.
<infinity> Those signatures aren't all the same at all.
<infinity> https://errors.ubuntu.com/oops/013c3eee-3284-11e2-b1c9-2c768aafd08c
<infinity> It's just taking the traceback, not the error.
<slangasek> ok
<slangasek> anyway, let's not try to dissect this here
<slangasek> take it to #ubuntu-devel afterwards if you want to kibitz bdmurray's investigation ;)
<slangasek> bdmurray: any other bugs?
<bdmurray> slangasek: nope
<slangasek> ok, cool
<slangasek> thanks
<xnox> ev: mis-bucketing ^^^^^ stuff is bucketed by traceback instead of error message.
<slangasek> [TOPIC] AOB
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: AOB
<slangasek> anything else?
<infinity> So, in the AOB realm for me, my last day of the year is today.  I'll be "around" here and there, if someone needs me for Ubuntuy or Debiany things, but don't expect responses before Jan 02.
<xnox> infinity: so with you & ogra gone #ubuntu-arm will be almost unresponsive =))))
<slangasek> well, I guess the rest of us will have to pitch in there :)
<slangasek> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Wed Dec 12 16:44:20 2012 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes (wiki):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-12-12-16.02.moin.txt
<meetingology> Minutes (html):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-12-12-16.02.html
<slangasek> thanks everyone!
<xnox> cheers.
<infinity> \o
<stgraber> thanks!
<zakuan> hello
#ubuntu-meeting 2012-12-13
<s-fox> o/
<jono> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Thu Dec 13 19:00:23 2012 UTC.  The chair is jono. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
<jono> hey everyone, and welcome to the Ubuntu Accomplishments meeting!
<jono> who is here for the meeting?
<s-fox> o/
<JasnaBencic> o/
<cwayne> \o
<cielak> o/
<jono> \o/
<jono> :-)
<jono> mhall119, are you here too?
<jono> so unfortunately I have to leave in 30m for a call, but I have a few agenda topics to raise
<jono> is it OK if I raise these first?
<cielak> sure
<jono> awesome :-)
<jono> so the first is regarding the server deployment
<jono> so mhall119 has been taking care of getting the validation, admin, and web gallery deployment instructions in place
<jono> one thing we need to decide on is how we push changes to IS for deployment
<jono> typically they prefer to simply pull a branch for a deployment
<jono> as such, I wanted to propose the following:
<jono>  - we will have the staging and production servers set up
<jono>  - staging pulls from trunk for each of the server-related projects
<cielak> will we have a separate project for the admin dashboard?
<jono>  - when we cut a new release of a project, trunk is branched to a version number (as we do with the -daemon and -viewer projects), and that version is pushed to production
<jono> cielak, right now the admin is just a branch, but I will set up a project
<mhall119> jono: I'm here
<cielak> okay
<jono> does that workflow sound OK to you folks?
<cielak> seems fine to me
<jono> this way we can then just file an RT with a branch pull for an update
<s-fox> sounds like a good idea to me
<jono> mhall119, do you think IS will be happy with that?
<mhall119> jono: why would staging pull from trunk?
<jono> mhall119, as that is where we develop the projects
<jono> the idea being that you only push to trunk when your code works :-)
<jono> so trunk is sacred
<mhall119> so this is feature staging, not deployment staging
<cielak> so the projects that are going to have their 'production' branches are the validation server, the dashboard and comunity-accomplishments?
<jono> mhall119, right
<mhall119> ok
<jono> cielak, right, so the only weird one is UCA
<jono> we can have production branches for validation, admin, and gallery
<jono> actually I guess we can just do the same for UCA
<jono> my thinking here though is that the server won't pull UCA from trunk and instead pull it from the releases PPA
<jono> as the accoms live in /usr/share
<cielak> the production one? or the staging one?
<jono> cielak, for production
<cielak> right
<cielak> this is fine with me
<jono> cool
<jono> mhall119, sound OK with you?
<mhall119> jono: yeah, we'd want to pull from something close to what users are using
<mhall119> so PPA instead of trunk
<jono> sounds good
<jono> yep
<jono> OK, I will document this on a wiki page
<jono> and then we can point IS at it
<jono> to ensure it is what they expect
<jono> so the other topic I wanted to discuss was getting ready for the release in 13.04
<jono> last night I was chatting to Janos about the gallery
<jono> unfortunately he can't be in this meeting
<jono> he has created a milestone and suggested we file bugs against the milestone that we need fixing in preparation for the release
<jono> I wanted to suggest we do the same across our different projects
<jono> I know we have many of these bugs already
<jono> cielak, how are things looking with the daemon/viewer in terms of quality?
<cielak> we have not messed up anything, but new features that were added have not yet been thoroughly tested
<jono> cielak, so I think we are going to want to put in place a more rigerous testing plan for this next release
<cielak> as for the daemon and the viewer, I tend to assign bugs to 0.4 milestones
<jono> sounds good
<jono> did we decide on a 0.4 release date?
<jono> I seem to remeber feb
<cielak> 15 feb
<jono> cool
<jono> this makes sense
<jono> so I think if we can shoot to have the server deployed by then and release 0.4
<jono> and then why don't we focus on getting our accoms and any other bug fixed after that
<jono> so the release after 0.4 will be 1.0
<jono> and will be the release in 13.04
<jono> make sense?
<cielak> so you mean we do not care much about bug fixing for 0.4, but for 1.0 instead??
<jono> my thinking is that 0.4 is all about bug fixing
<jono> I personally think we should lock down features
<jono> but to focus on the server, daemon and viewer mainly for 0.4
<jono> and then we focus on UCA for 1.0 and any other bugs
<cielak> okay, let it be this way
<jono> cielak, is that OK with you?
<cielak> there are two more major features I'd like to implement in 0.4
<jono> oh?
<cielak> so just wanted to ensure I understand the plan well ;)
<jono> :-)
<jono> which features, cielak?
<cielak> first is getting the daemon to run scripts in paralell
<cielak> this will improve the performance, as most of time scripts are just waiting for servers to respond
<cielak> this is kind of experimental, I will investigate how that changes resource usage and execution time
<jono> cielak, sounds cool
<cielak> and the other thing is support for custom validation servers for third-party collection
<jono> cielak, right
<cielak> just to make our platform fully expandable
<jono> yup
<jono> cielak, are you going to work on both of those features?
<cielak> I should have some more time to work on that during the winter break, and I am really excited to work on them, but if anyone wants, help is very welcome ;)
<cielak> plus there is the thing of making the daemon a DBus service
<jono> cielak, right
<jono> cielak, would you mind emailing didrocks and discussing the dbus work there?
<jono> I know you have not had as much IRC time
<jono> I am hoping the dbus thing won't be a blocker for inclusion in the USC
<cielak> I will, but first I will reproduce all the problems, to clarify what I had troubles with
<jono> sounds great
<jono> thanks, cielak :-)
<cielak> just being busy recently, but that should change soon
<jono> ok, I will take some time later to put together a release schedule with these dates
<jono> cielak, awesome
<jono> we are not far off our 1.0 goal :-)
<jono> this is going to be *awesome*
<jono> :-)
<jono> it will be super cool to see people's trophies on the web
<jono> and shared on Twitter :-)
<cielak> indeed!
<jono> ok, those were my agenda items
<jono> any other topics?
<s-fox> i have none.
<cielak> I have one
<JasnaBencic> a lot of things I don't understand but this is great :) .... cielak should I still focus on 10.04 or new versions of Ubuntu so I can catch up with you guys easier?
<cielak> JasnaBencic: we never really supporter 10.04
<jono> JasnaBencic, , 12.04 is our minimum version
<jono> cielak, what topic?
<cielak> I expect you may be successful running Accomplishments on 10.04, but we can't guarantee that
<cielak> I wanted to ask if anyone has recently followed the Accomplishments Writing Guide
<cielak> I don't remember us updating it frequently
<cielak> so it might be wise to check if it's not outdated
<doctormon> Sorry late, is meeting still happening?
<cielak> doctormon: yes! :)
<jono> cielak, I haven't checked into it recently
<jono> this is something we should check into, particularly after 0.4
<jono> doctormon, still going  :-)
<s-fox> Zilvador,   did you follow the guide?
<jono> although I have to run in a few mins
<cielak> so this is a thing that certainly should land on our todo list
<doctormon> I'm here to tend to the code submitted for gtk-shelves; message to jono might have been lost in the pipes.
<Zilvador> s-fox, I did. And I am planning to go through it soon to update it.
<s-fox> ^ cielak  :)
<cielak> doctormon: I would be interested in examining your code
<jono> doctormon, did you file a MP?
<cielak> Zilvador: awesome! you are very welcome to improve it :)
<jono> ok, sorry folks, I need to run to this call
<Zilvador> :)
<jono> thanks for joining everyone!
<jono> feel free to keep discussing
<cielak> thanks jono! see you :)
<doctormon> jono: No, because it's not production code.
<jono> just end the meeting when you need to
<jono> doctormon, ok
<cielak> doctormon: you did a simple proof-of-concept GTK app, right?
<JasnaBencic> thank you jono
<doctormon> cielak: lp:~doctormo/junk/gtk-shelves
<jono> doctormon, have a screenshot?
<doctormon> Took a while to root through all the gtk bolocks though. The gtk devs were unhappy about it, *shrug* but it works.
<doctormon> jono: You've seen the screenshot already, the difference is now you can scroll.
<doctormon> (without it messing up)
<jono> doctormon, can you link us again?
<mhall119> doctormon: have you tested it on various GTK themes?  I had one way of doing it that worked on some, but not others
<cielak> doctormon: testing out, this looks fine, but I wonder what would happen if the items would have variable height
<doctormon> cielak: Bad things
<doctormon> mhall119: Yes, this works by painting, not styles.
<doctormon> jono: Image is gone on imagebin, cielak can you generate a screenshot for jono?
<cielak> oops, the accomplishments viewer has items of different heights... is there a chance your trick could be applied in such case too?
<doctormon> cielak: No, you'd have to find the height of the row and change the image accordingly. That's a lot of code.
<mhall119> doctormon: cool
<doctormon> Recommend you change the viewer habbit.
<doctormon> (actually what I have is control over the icon display, it paints them all as a fixed size anyway)
<cielak> doctormon: the point is that the different height is not because icon size, but because the accompishment title varies, and long titles (or long translations) result in higher rows
<doctormon> I took the titles out, too much trouble.
<mfisch> cielak: sorry I had another meeting
 * davidcalle has just arrived
<cielak> yeah, but there is no way we could not display the title in the viewer
<cielak> hello davidcalle :)
 * davidcalle waves :)
<doctormon> But it is possible to calculate the pango paint size of the text and consider that in the painting. But we're talking about a very different order of magnatude on the code there.
<cielak> there is a screenshot of doctormon's experimental branch: http://i.imgur.com/f6fAY.png
<doctormon> For instance, repeating each row is done by the context, we'd have to manually do all that.
<cielak> doctormon: yes, I expect so
<cielak> this would also significantly affect performance
<doctormon> Probably. There are ways to show the title though. have a fixed number of letters and use an elipse. Do a hover over screen with title and other info.
 * janos_ these icons in the shot are not so good... simpler would be better
<doctormon> Useful once we get the icon-level and branding destinctions in there. Maybe the trophies will each be unique enough.
<cielak> a hover would make browsing difficult
<doctormon> cielak: It's not for browsing, it's for admiring. Browsing is when you want to view the achievements you don't have yet. No?
<janos_> is the UI searchable with ctrl-F or something?
<cielak> a fixed number of letters is't a perfect solution too, though, look at how varied the titles are
<janos_> i think titles are important
<cielak> janos_: the trunk/dailies contain already a search feature
<cielak> doctormon: so that would make sense only once we have tons of easily distinguishable icons for trophies
<janos_> cielak: thanks i just meant that to highlight the importance of titles (searchability)
<doctormon> We could afix the position and give each more space, 3 lines height each.
<janos_> but i do see doctormon's point about admiration
<janos_> can a one-line title be vertical aligned in the middle?
<cielak> a fixed 3 lines height seems like a kind of a good solution
<doctormon> janos_: It would be if we painted it ;-)
<cielak> yeah, if painted manually, we can do everything
<cielak> using a custom, not theme-dependent font+size would be significant
<doctormon> So, we don't use the listview as just a painting canvas. We hijack the icon's own paint mechanism to do that side of things.
<doctormon> So it's basically 3 hijacks of different widget/parts.
<cielak> but drawing the text manually has one disadvantage - the more we move away from standard GTK, the more accesibility features we may loose
<doctormon> cielak: In this case not, we're not painting the text onto the iconview widget.
<cielak> but onto it's embeded label?
<doctormon> cielak: But the item's own internal draw method. The text is still in the item's data store, the item still has a bounding box. It's all good.
<cielak> aah
<cielak> that's fine indeed
<doctormon> Now don't ask me about drag and drop :-P
<doctormon> It might work ;-)
<cielak> it should... I guess, but we never supported it anyway
<cielak> I don't see any use of dragging the trophies, neither within nor outsite the window
<cielak> doctormon: and I expect this would not interfere with GtkTreeModelFilters we use?
<cielak> silly me, of course it wouldn't
<doctormon> :-)
<cielak> my opinion is that it would be worth to work on that in a viewer's branch
<doctormon> I've tried hacking on the viewers code, but it's deps are far too high for devel
<cielak> what do you mean?
<doctormon> (I can't get it to run without a server, dbus and all that other guff running)
<cielak> doctormon: you will need dbus and the accomplishments-daemon
<cielak> server shouldn't be needed, though
<doctormon> Exactly why do I need the daemon for to test a viewer? Is there no test daemon with pre-set data?
<cielak> the viewer is just the frontend for the daemon
<cielak> it does not know at all how accomplishments work, how to process their files etc
<cielak> it asks the daemon to do whatever is needed
<cielak> a good thing about that is that it keeps the viewer much less complicated for you to hack
<cielak> but there is no way you could run it without the daemon
<cielak> anyway, awesome work with the branch :) It would be great if you could reproduce these effects in the viewer, but if not I guess I could work on that, your code seems clear to me
<cielak> in case of problems with getting the daemon to run you are welcome in #ubuntu-accomplishments
 * gepatino waves. sorry I'm late
<cielak> hi gepatino, good to see you :)
<cielak> okay, there are 10 more minutes time left, so if anyone wants to discuss anything else, please go ahead!
<gepatino> is there something to talk about the web gallery?
<cielak> janos_: ^
<doctormon> thanks guys!
<mhall119> the only problem I had deploying the gallery was that the samples/users.json is out of date
<mhall119> and wasn't setting the share id/folder properly
<mhall119> probably made for an older version of the data model
<jono> cielak, do you have a screenshot of doctormon's branch?
<cielak> jono: http://i.imgur.com/f6fAY.png
<jono> cielak, cool
<jono> would be cool if the trophies could have a little shadow too
<cielak> I think this is to be done in the accomplishment icon
<jono> cielak, so is he going to work on a production branch?
<cielak> yes, it seems so
<jono> cool
<mhall119> we should change all the trophies to ponies
<cielak> mhall119: +1 for a new ponies-related accomplishments collection
<cielak> right, we're running out of time and it seems there is nothing more to discuss
<cielak> thanks everyone for joining us!
<gepatino> mhall119, could you send a mail with this info to the list? I'll try to take a look at it
<gepatino> I mean the issue with the samples/users.json file, not the ponies icons :)
 * janos_ reading up
<JasnaBencic> meeting done? cielak you'll get a lot of questions from me via mail :)  I'm very happy that I came here despite I didn't understand a lot :)
<cielak> JasnaBencic: sure. you are also welcome to ask us all via the mailing list we use
<JasnaBencic> ok
<janos_> mhall119: oh the samples/users.json was just for an initial proof of concept demo
<janos_> mhall119, gepatino: yup, samples/users.json is just for developers, should not be in prod. I will update the readme
<gepatino> ok
<janos_> oh i see the meeting is over :) heading over to the other channel then, bye all
<mhall119> ok
#ubuntu-meeting 2012-12-14
<b7uesm1rf> ok im here! we can party now lol!
<tgm4883> Is anyone here for the Ubuntu TV meeting?
<tgm4883> because I will totally have a meeting if anyone wants to have one
<AndroUser> sry - crestednewt here. forgot about hospital appoint for wife
<mhall119> tgm4883: do you have anything to discuss or show off?
<tgm4883> not much, currently I've finished getting the mythtv scope working again using JSON instead of XML
<AndroUser> i have nothing. bobweaver has gone quiet
<mhall119> I know he's been experimenting with stuff on the old 2d code
<tgm4883> Currently writing the tvguide lens and mythtv guide scope
<mhall119> not sure if there's anything new on the NUX side
 * tgm4883 shrugs
<tgm4883> we should discuss meetings for Dec 21 and Dec 28
<tgm4883> since those are right square in holiday time
<mhall119> yeah, holiday season means things will be slow for a while
<AndroUser> i suggest they be cancelled
<tgm4883> Personally, I think we should cancel Dec 28 meeting, and move the community questions meeting either to Dec 21st, or Jan 4th
<tgm4883> I say the 21st, unless people think that is too close to christmas
<tgm4883> in which case we can cancel that meeting too
<mhall119> I'll be working
<AndroUser> its my dads birthday so i will be out
<tgm4883> Some people (me) will have that day off for travel
<tgm4883> although i'm not going anywhere
<CrestedNewt> sorry in docs waiting room - just downloaded this app
<CrestedNewt> but will have to go when called in
<CrestedNewt> so my suggestion is that the next 2 meetings are postponed intil the new year
<tgm4883> Jan 4th
<CrestedNewt> agreed
<tgm4883> mhall119, can you cancel the next 2 meetings in the calendar?
<mhall119> sure thing
<mhall119> done
<tgm4883> awesome
<tgm4883> anything else from anyone?
<CrestedNewt> not from me until i can talk to bobweaver offline
<CrestedNewt> as i have offered to do the documentation
<tgm4883> well then I think that ends the meeting then
<tgm4883> if anyone needs to get ahold of me, feel free to ping me in #ubuntu-tv
<CrestedNewt> (thinks ppl have gone quiet as they are suprised that i can write :-))
<CrestedNewt> tgm4883. ok
<CrestedNewt> is someone going to circ the meeting or should i just read it from archives?
<CrestedNewt> gtg sry  oncologist calling us in. laters all and have a good christmas
<tgm4883> oncologist.... Good luck
<solarcloud_3scrn> !meeting
<ubottu> Team meetings are held in #ubuntu-meeting - See Â« /msg ubottu logs Â» for transcripts.
#ubuntu-meeting 2013-12-09
<jdstrand> hi!
<mdeslaur> o/
<tyhicks> hello
<jdstrand> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Mon Dec  9 16:42:55 2013 UTC.  The chair is jdstrand. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
<jdstrand> The meeting agenda can be found at:
<jdstrand> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/Meeting
<jdstrand> [TOPIC] Announcements
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Announcements
<jdstrand> Thanks to Ritesh Khadgaray (ritz) for providing preliminary patches for pixman for precise-saucy (LP: #1197921). Your work is very much appreciated and will keep Ubuntu users secure. Great job! :)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1197921 in xorg-server (Ubuntu Saucy) "LibreOffice spreadsheet causes full Xorg crash with Anti-Aliasing enabled" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1197921
<jdstrand> [TOPIC] Weekly stand-up report
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Weekly stand-up report
<jdstrand> I'll go first
<jdstrand> I'm in the happy place this week
<jdstrand> I've got another short week
<jdstrand> I'm working on some pending updates
<jdstrand> I've also got some apparmor-easyprof-ubuntu work items to do to unblock mardy
<jdstrand> and more 14.04 planning
<jdstrand> mdeslaur: you're up
<mdeslaur> I'm on triage this week
<mdeslaur> and have just published gimp updates
<mdeslaur> I have a few more updates I'm working on
<mdeslaur> and am still going down the list, etc.
<mdeslaur> that's it from me, sbeattie, you're up
<tyhicks> I don't think he's here so I'll go ahead
<tyhicks> I'm still hardening the goldfish kernel config
<tyhicks> I need to investigate one test failure when running test-click-apparmor.py on goldfish with apparmor enabled
<tyhicks> After that, I'll prepare apparmor and dbus uploads to add support for an 'eavesdrop' permission (all of the code is already written)
<tyhicks> Then I'll start on the user data encryption work items
<tyhicks> that's it for me
<tyhicks> jjohansen: you're up
<tyhicks> oh, I know he's not here today
<tyhicks> sarnold: you're up
<sarnold> I'm on community this week
<sarnold> I'll be going through some apparmor patches, I know there's still a few left on the list that I haven't reviewed yet
<sarnold> and I'll be handling some MIR audits
<tyhicks> there's not many patches left - thanks for reviewing so many last week :)
<sarnold> I think that's it for me, chrisccoulson, you're up :)
<sarnold> woo :)
<chrisccoulson> hi :)
<chrisccoulson> this week, i've got firefox and thunderbird updates
<chrisccoulson> and going to get chromium out too
<chrisccoulson> also, trying to get oxide to build successfully on arm, which is proving to be less fun than i imagine ;)
<chrisccoulson> **imagined
<jdstrand> chrisccoulson: is is more gyp-finagling?
<jdstrand> s/is is/is it/
<chrisccoulson> jdstrand, out of memory when linking
<sarnold> owwwww
<chrisccoulson> i'm currently trying a build with gold
<chrisccoulson> i have another option if that fails
<jdstrand> classic
<chrisccoulson> heh
<chrisccoulson> so it's going to be a busy last few days for me before i finish for christmas
<jdstrand> curious that we can get chromium to build but not oxide
<chrisccoulson> jdstrand, we do a component build of chromium, which carves up all of the modules in to lots of small libraries
<jdstrand> is chromium-browser doing anything special to work around that?
<chrisccoulson> it's really only a developer option
<jdstrand> I see
<chrisccoulson> and also, the blink debug symbols are disabled
<chrisccoulson> we need cross builds ;)
<chrisccoulson> anyway, i think that's me done
<jdstrand> if your remainging to options don't work, perhaps talk to slangasek (or infinity) on options?
<jdstrand> s/remainging to/remaining two/
<chrisccoulson> jdstrand, the component build option would work, although i'd need to make some changes to oxide to support that
<jdstrand> that sounds like it would be quite a bit more work
<jdstrand> I thought all this was supposed to be fixed with the new armhf boxes...
<sarnold> armhf isn't 64 bit :/
<mdeslaur> chrisccoulson: are we getting a chromium-browser release this week?
<chrisccoulson> yeah, that's the main problem
<chrisccoulson> mdeslaur, yeah
<mdeslaur> chrisccoulson: oh, sorry, didn't see that comment above
<jdstrand> well, neither is the i386 buildd
<jdstrand> or am I missing something?
<jdstrand> chrisccoulson: ^
<chrisccoulson> jdstrand, not sure. perhaps the linker on arm just uses more memory?
<mdeslaur> perhaps the builders have less ram?
<jdstrand> ok, well, I think it might make sense to talk to some arm buildd experts before going the component build route (if we are facing that)
<chrisccoulson> sure
<jdstrand> mdeslaur: that is what I thought, which is why I thought this was all fixed with the new armhf boxes
<mdeslaur> they doubled from "almost none" to "slightly more" I believe :)
<jdstrand> maybe the buildd that is getting assigned isn't a new one. infinity could definitely answer those questions
<jdstrand> anyhoo
<jdstrand> let's move on
<jdstrand> TOPIC] Highlighted packages
<jdstrand> The Ubuntu Security team will highlight some community-supported packages that might be good candidates for updating and or triaging. If you would like to help Ubuntu and not sure where to start, this is a great way to do so.
<jdstrand> See https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/UpdateProcedures for details and if you have any questions, feel free to ask in #ubuntu-security. To find out other ways of helping out, please see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/GettingInvolved.
<jdstrand> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/haskell-tls-extra.html
<jdstrand> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/webfs.html
<jdstrand> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/proftpd-dfsg.html
<jdstrand> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/xine-ui.html
<jdstrand> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/gnome-shell.html
<jdstrand> [TOPIC] Miscellaneous and Questions
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Miscellaneous and Questions
<jdstrand> Does anyone have any other questions or items to discuss?
<tyhicks> It looks like bug #1158500 is something that we'll need to address
<ubottu> bug 1158500 in audit (Ubuntu) "auditd fails to add rules when used in precise with -lts-quantal kernel" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1158500
<tyhicks> especially now that audit is in main
<slangasek> chrisccoulson: "we need cross-builds" - cross-building chromium-browser should work, it's just not a complete analogue to what you get with a native build (so won't let you debug all native build failures)
<tyhicks> I'm not going to have the cycles to look into it this week, but it is something that will need to be thought out in time for trusty
<sarnold> tyhicks: oww :/
<mdeslaur> tyhicks: I think that would be a kernel team issue, no?
<tyhicks> mdeslaur: possibly
<mdeslaur> tyhicks: I'd attempt tricking them into taking it first :P
<mdeslaur> oh wait, universe, it's community supported
<tyhicks> mdeslaur: it was universe for precise
<mdeslaur> yep
<tyhicks> mdeslaur: it will be in main for trusty, which will have the same problem
<mdeslaur> how so?
<tyhicks> lts kernel updates will cause the syscall table to be updated
<mdeslaur> oooh, yeah, point the kernel team at it then
<mdeslaur> it just needs a rebuild?
<tyhicks> I don't know
<tyhicks> I'm not sure where it gets the syscall table from
<mdeslaur> ok
<jdstrand> if it gets a rebuild, would that break the release kernel?
<tyhicks> I'd think so
<jdstrand> yikes
<jdstrand> tyhicks: can I add a work item for you to followup with the kernel team on the bug?
<tyhicks> jdstrand: sure
<jdstrand> tyhicks: then we can go from there on who does what
<jdstrand> I imagine we would handle it similarly to the xorg stack
<jdstrand> (ie different packages to go with that kernel)
<jdstrand> but I don't know what that would look like
<mdeslaur> yeah, I think they already have a list of packages they need to update/repackage, so that would need to be added
<tyhicks> ah, I didn't realize that was a possibility
<jdstrand> mdeslaur, tyhicks, sarnold, chrisccoulson: thanks!
<jdstrand> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Mon Dec  9 17:13:57 2013 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes (wiki):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2013/ubuntu-meeting.2013-12-09-16.42.moin.txt
<meetingology> Minutes (html):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2013/ubuntu-meeting.2013-12-09-16.42.html
<sarnold> thanks jdstrand :)
<tyhicks> thanks!
<mdeslaur> thanks jdstrand!
#ubuntu-meeting 2013-12-10
<smoser> o/
<smoser> #startmeeting ubuntu-server-team
<meetingology> Meeting started Tue Dec 10 16:00:32 2013 UTC.  The chair is smoser. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic:
<smoser> welcome to this weeks' exciting adventure of the Ubuntu Server Team meeting.
<jamespage> o/
<smoser> #link https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/Meeting
<smoser> that link above is for all who are playing along at home.
<smoser> #topic Review ACTION points from previous meeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Review ACTION points from previous meeting
<smoser> * gaughen file bug with status.u.c to get ubuntu server topic tracking in there (carry over)
<smoser> gaughen, is that http://status.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-t/group/topic-t-servercloud-overview.html ?
<jamespage> we appear to still be missing quite a few bp's - I'm not sure whether its status of what
<smoser> I think it is, so if no one objects i'm calling that one done. if someone does object, bother me later. moving on.
<smoser> missing bps ?
<smoser> oh, yeah, we do.
<smoser> hm..
<smoser> well, i'll carry that over then.
<smoser> #ACTION gaughen or jamespage or smoser: get all server blueprints represented at /topic-t-servercloud-overview.html
<meetingology> ACTION: gaughen or jamespage or smoser: get all server blueprints represented at /topic-t-servercloud-overview.html
<smoser>  * everyone look at grep-merges output and merge/sync as much and early as possible
<smoser> if you've been doing the above, please continue. if you've not, please start looking atmerges.
<smoser> merges are a good way to get started with ubuntu development and someone (smoser) can help you if you want to get started and need to find osmething that would make a good target for that.
<smoser>   * jamespage to send email on server seed [carry over)
<jamespage> done
<smoser> that looks to me to be done at done at https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel/2013-December/037849.html
<smoser> #topic Trusty Development
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Trusty Development
<smoser> #link https://wiki.ubuntu.com/TrustyTahr/ReleaseSchedule
<smoser> we do have an alpha1 coming up on the 19th
<smoser> and we're planning on alpha1 cloud images.
<smoser> #link http://reqorts.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/rls-mgr/rls-t-tracking-bug-tasks.html#server
<smoser> #subtopic Release Bugs
<smoser> #link http://reqorts.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/rls-mgr/rls-t-tracking-bug-tasks.html#server
<smoser> i dont really want to walk through stuff there.
<smoser> please just take a look at those bugs and if you *should* be working on them, do , and if you want to help out, pleease feel free for that.
<smoser> #subtopic Blueprints
<smoser> #link http://status.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-t/group/topic-t-servercloud-overview.html
<smoser> as pointed out, we need to get that list updated.
<smoser> jamespage and I and gaughen went through the list last week, and go tmost into reasonable order.
<hallyn_> we might want https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/core-1311-cgroup-manager tracked there
<smoser> https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/?searchtext=servercloud-1311
<smoser> please follow up with gaughen to get that done, hallyn.
<caribou> did someone had a chance to congratulate hallyn_ on making lwn.net's first page with that topic ?
<smoser> :). lets hold that to the open discussion.
<caribou> smoser: sorry, I coudln't resist
<smoser> so for blueprints, the work item there is that you should work on your blueprints and the material they reference.
<smoser> jamespage, or i or gaughen or jcastro maybe will make sure they get into that pretty tracker
<smoser> #topic Server & Cloud Bugs (caribou)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Server & Cloud Bugs (caribou)
<smoser> caribou, now its your turn to talk.
<caribou> smoser: nothing on my end, thank you
<smoser> #topic Weekly Updates & Questions for the QA Team (psivaa)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Weekly Updates & Questions for the QA Team (psivaa)
<smoser> psivaa,
<psivaa> smoser: no updates from us
<smoser> #topic Weekly Updates & Questions for the Kernel Team (smb)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Weekly Updates & Questions for the Kernel Team (smb)
<smb> Nothing exiting from here. Finally completed the Xen MRE updates, starting with security, maybe return with more MRE. Xen from libvirt in Trusty currently broken. Looking at zul's ppa of 1.2.0 still seems to come up blank. ;) Started to look on bug 1258631.
<ubottu> bug 1258631 in linux (Ubuntu Trusty) "instances fails to register GPT partition entries on virtio devices" [Medium,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1258631
<smoser> yeah, thanks for that smb
<smoser> also, sforeshee did a bit of investigation for me on viability of a "server" kernel
<utlemming> smoser: is there a bug for tracking that investigation?
<smoser> the end goal would b to have a cloud image and default 'server' kernel that were the same. and that would give us a cloud image that "just worked" on most server hardware also.
<smoser> this would likely cost us some size in the cloud image, but would make us more functional.
<smoser> investigation continues.
<smoser> utlemming, there isn't a bug. i can forward you (and anyone else) what sforeshee sent me on it.
<smoser> #topic Weekly Updates & Questions regarding Ubuntu ARM Server (rbasak)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Weekly Updates & Questions regarding Ubuntu ARM Server (rbasak)
<rbasak> Nothing to report. Any questions for me?
<smoser> #topic Open Discussion
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Open Discussion
<smoser> #subtopic congratulations to the super rock star hallyn_
<hallyn_> sigh
<smoser> https://lwn.net/Articles/575672/
 * rharper claps
<hallyn_> all right all right
<smoser> hallyn_, why can't you just use systemd ?
 * smoser ducks
<hallyn_> smoser won't let me
<smoser> touche
<smoser> #topic Ubuntu Server Team Events
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Ubuntu Server Team Events
<smoser> anyone have any thing here?
<smoser> #topic Announce next meeting date and time
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Announce next meeting date and time
<smoser> the next meeting will be held in this same place exactly 603403 seconds from now.
<caribou> smoser: is that octal or decimal ?
<rbasak> caribou: base 10.
<caribou> rbasak: roger that
<smoser> hmm..
<smoser> $ echo "next meeting is in: $(($(date +%s --utc --date="Dec 17 16:00") - $(date +%s))) seconds"
<smoser> next meeting is in: 603313 seconds
<smoser> caribou, feel free to fix that to do binary if you'd like.
<smoser> next meeting:
<smoser> Tue Dec 17 16:00:00 EST 2013
<rbasak> caribou: http://i.stack.imgur.com/ldNco.png :)
<smoser> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Tue Dec 10 16:25:38 2013 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes (wiki):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2013/ubuntu-meeting.2013-12-10-16.00.moin.txt
<meetingology> Minutes (html):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2013/ubuntu-meeting.2013-12-10-16.00.html
<smoser> rbasak, nice.
<jsalisbury> #startmeeting
<jsalisbury> ##
<jsalisbury> ## This is the Ubuntu Kernel Team weekly status meeting.
<jsalisbury> ##
<jsalisbury> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/Meeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Tue Dec 10 17:00:20 2013 UTC.  The chair is jsalisbury. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
<jsalisbury> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/ReleaseStatus/Trusty
<jsalisbury> # Meeting Etiquette
<jsalisbury> #
<jsalisbury> # NOTE: '..' indicates that you are finished with your input.
<jsalisbury> #       'o/' indicates you have something to add (please wait until you are recognized)
<jsalisbury> Roll Call for Ubuntu Kernel Weekly Status Meeting
<ppisati> o/
<bjf> o/
<arges> o/
<cking> \o
<henrix> o/
<kamal> o/
<smb> \o/
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] ARM Status (ppisati)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: ARM Status (ppisati)
<ppisati> nothing new to report this week
<ppisati> ..
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] Release Metrics and Incoming Bugs (jsalisbury)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Release Metrics and Incoming Bugs (jsalisbury)
<jsalisbury> Release metrics and incoming bug data can be reviewed at the following link:
<jsalisbury> [LINK] http://people.canonical.com/~kernel/reports/kt-meeting.txt
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] Milestone Targeted Work Items (ogasawara)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Milestone Targeted Work Items (ogasawara)
<ogasawara> yeek, 2 secs
<ogasawara> [LINK] https://launchpad.net/~canonical-kernel-distro-team/+upcomingwork
<ogasawara> [LINK] http://status.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-t/canonical-kernel-distro-team.html
<ogasawara> || apw       || core-1311-kernel                || 5 work items ||
<ogasawara> ||           || core-1311-cross-compilation     || 2 work items ||
<ogasawara> ||           || core-1311-hwe-plans             || 1 work item  ||
<ogasawara> || bjf       || core-1311-dmraid2mdadm          || 1 work item  ||
<ogasawara> || ogasawara || core-1311-kernel                || 4 work items ||
<ogasawara> ||           || client-1311-xorg-general        || 1 work item  ||
<ogasawara> || sforshee  || servercloud-1311-cloud-images   || 1 work item  ||
<ogasawara> || smb       || core-1311-dmraid2mdadm          || 1 work item  ||
<ogasawara> ||           || servercloud-1311-openstack-virt || 5 work items ||
<ogasawara> || rtg       || core-1311-hwe-plans             || 1 work item  ||
<ogasawara> ||           || core-1311-kernel                || 1 work item  ||
<ogasawara> ..
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] Status: Trusty Development Kernel (ogasawara)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Status: Trusty Development Kernel (ogasawara)
<ogasawara> The master branch for trusty has been rebased to the latest v3.12.4
<ogasawara> upstream stable kernel.  We also continue to track the latest v3.13
<ogasawara> kernel on our unstable branch and most recently rebased to v3.13-rc3.
<ogasawara> We anticipate uploading a v3.13 based Trusty kernel to the archive after
<ogasawara> the new year.
<ogasawara> -----
<ogasawara> Important upcoming dates:
<ogasawara> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/TrustyTahr/ReleaseSchedule
<ogasawara> Thurs Dec 19 - Alpha 1 (~1 week away)
<ogasawara> Thurs Jan 23 - Alpha 2 (~6 weeks away)
<ogasawara> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/PrecisePangolin/ReleaseSchedule
<ogasawara> Thurs Dec 12 - 12.04.4 Kernel Freeze (this week!)
<ogasawara> Thurs Jan 23 - 12.04.4 Final Release (~6 weeks away)
<ogasawara> ..
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] Status: CVE's
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Status: CVE's
<jsalisbury> The current CVE status can be reviewed at the following link:
<jsalisbury> http://people.canonical.com/~kernel/cve/pkg/ALL-linux.html
<jsalisbury> ..
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] Status: Stable, Security, and Bugfix Kernel Updates - Saucy/Raring/Quantal/Precise/Lucid (bjf/henrix/sconklin)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Status: Stable, Security, and Bugfix Kernel Updates - Saucy/Raring/Quantal/Precise/Lucid (bjf/henrix/sconklin)
<bjf> Status for the main kernels, until today (Nov. 26):
<bjf>   *   Lucid - Verification & Regression Testing
<bjf>   * Precise - Verification & Regression Testing
<bjf>   * Quantal - Verification & Regression Testing
<bjf>   *  Raring - Verification & Regression Testing
<bjf>   *   Saucy - Verification & Regression Testing
<bjf> Current opened tracking bugs details:
<bjf>   * http://people.canonical.com/~kernel/reports/kernel-sru-workflow.html
<bjf> For SRUs, SRU report is a good source of information:
<bjf>   * http://people.canonical.com/~kernel/reports/sru-report.html
<bjf> ..
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] Open Discussion or Questions? Raise your hand to be recognized (o/)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Open Discussion or Questions? Raise your hand to be recognized (o/)
<jsalisbury> Thanks everyone
<jsalisbury> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Tue Dec 10 17:04:37 2013 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes (wiki):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2013/ubuntu-meeting.2013-12-10-17.00.moin.txt
<meetingology> Minutes (html):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2013/ubuntu-meeting.2013-12-10-17.00.html
<cking> thanks jsalisbury
<kamal> thanks jsalisbury
#ubuntu-meeting 2013-12-11
<slickymaster> good night all
#ubuntu-meeting 2013-12-12
 * barry waves
 * slangasek waves
<slangasek> hey guys... sorry I'm late
 * stgraber waves
<slangasek> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Thu Dec 12 16:05:58 2013 UTC.  The chair is slangasek. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
<slangasek> #topic Lightning round
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Lightning round
<slangasek> $ echo $(shuf -e barry doko stgraber jodh bdmurray slangasek cjwatson xnox stokachu)
<slangasek> bdmurray stokachu cjwatson stgraber jodh doko xnox slangasek barry
<bdmurray> bug triage of dpkg already installed and configured bug reports
<bdmurray> updated apport general hook to gather more information for dpkg already installed and configured bug reports
<bdmurray> reported bug 1258639 regarding upgrades from Q to S
<ubottu> bug 1258639 in update-manager (Ubuntu Quantal) "need to support upgrades from 12.10 to 13.10" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1258639
<bdmurray> worked on modifications to update-manager and u-r-u to allow upgrades from Q to S
<bdmurray> merged anders kaseorg metarelease changes to ubuntu-release-upgrader
<bdmurray> wrote a test case for bug 1250679 (apport crashes and guest users)
<bdmurray> uploaded a fix for bug 1257159 regarding the apport ubiquity hook
<bdmurray> uploaded a precise SRU for bug 1075537 for bruno nova
<bdmurray> uploaded fix for rhythmbox apport hook LP: #1259185
<bdmurray> fixed a crash in the phased-updater due to errors not returning json data
<ubottu> bug 1250679 in apport (Ubuntu Saucy) "crash files from guest users considered system reports" [Medium,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1250679
<ubottu> bug 1257159 in apport (Ubuntu Trusty) "ubiquity apport hook shouldn't suggest password is in log file" [Medium,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1257159
<ubottu> bug 1075537 in software-properties (Ubuntu Precise) "software-properties needs to automatically trigger a cache refresh after adding a repo" [Medium,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1075537
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1259185 in rhythmbox (Ubuntu) "apport hook needs updated to gstreamer1.0" [Low,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1259185
<bdmurray> updated bugbot to deal with dist-upgrade failures due to xorg-edgers
<bdmurray> modified ubuntu-release-upgrader apport hook to collect dmesg
<bdmurray> package to team mapping work
<bdmurray> submitted merge proposal switching errors back to using assets
<bdmurray> worked on resolving whoopsie / apport bug 1235436
<ubottu> bug 1235436 in apport (Ubuntu) "/etc/init/apport-noui.conf is non-functional on the phone" [Critical,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1235436
<bdmurray> uploaded update-notifier to T that exits if /etc/apport/autoreport exists
<bdmurray> patch pilot'ed
<bdmurray> â done
<slangasek> stokachu is out for the month; he hasn't told me there'll be a stand-in this week
<slangasek> cjwatson:
<cjwatson> GRUB:
<cjwatson>  * Finished up work for various OEMs in 12.04.4.  Awaiting one final piece of verification.
<cjwatson>  * Chased down an efidisk write bug exposed by the SRU verification work on 4K-sector disks; fixed in trusty, committed for the next precise upload.
<cjwatson>  * Followed up on the PV-GRUB2 port recently committed upstream, implementing the configuration ideas from UDS-Oneiric (http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-o/meeting/16065/server-o-xen-host/).
<cjwatson> click:
<cjwatson>  * Fixed a painful interaction between dynamic system users and system-image in click (bug 1259253).
<ubottu> bug 1259253 in click (Ubuntu) "UID changes for clickpkg user breaks app updates/installs" [Critical,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1259253
<cjwatson>  * Pondering how to do a libclick in such a way that we don't have to do every last bit of the C rewrite before deploying it.
<cjwatson> Launchpad:
<cjwatson>  * Started on the next launchpad-buildd deployment: uploaded to staging PPA, need to sort out staging deployment and QA.
<cjwatson>  * Pre-implementation discussion with William of the master side of Launchpad livefs building.
<cjwatson> Tidied up breakage resulting from foomatic-filters being merged into cups-filters.
<cjwatson> ..
<stgraber> Done:
<stgraber>  - CGroup Manager
<stgraber>    - Helped with some benchmarking.
<stgraber>  - LXC
<stgraber>    - Tested unprivileged containers (it mostly works!)
<stgraber>    - Wrote a fix for the loginuid pam module to work with userns (waiting for my message to be accepted on the pam-devel mailing-list...)
<stgraber>    - Moved all of our mailing-lists out of sourceforge.net
<stgraber>    - Added Android builds to our automated build process
<stgraber>    - Added support for unprivileged containers in the python3 binding and tools
<stgraber>    - Landed the flexible-config branch (that'll make adding mounts, capabilities, ... to existing containers much much easier)
<stgraber>    - Quite a bit of code reviews
<stgraber>  - Ubuntu touch
<stgraber>    - Fixed some problems caused by a wrong copy-images run.
<stgraber>    - Branch to enable discard support on touch (and testing on grouper and mako)
<stgraber>  - Other
<stgraber>    - SRU and New reviews
<stgraber>    - A bunch of merges
<stgraber>    - Patch pilot
<stgraber> Todo:
<stgraber>  - LXC beta1 (due next Tuesday)
<stgraber>  - LXC config-overview branch and LXC autostart branch
<stgraber>  - Some more unpriv containers work
<stgraber> End of year holidays:
<stgraber>  - I'll be flying to Europe on Tuesday night
<stgraber>  - Off on Wednesday the 18th
<stgraber>  - Working on Thursday and Friday (19th and 20th)
<stgraber>  - Then off until the 2nd of January
<stgraber> (DONE)
<jodh> * upstart
<jodh>   * core-1311-upstart-roadmap: good progress. Upstart can now connect to
<jodh>     the cgroup mananager. We're probably going to need to make the
<jodh>     internal spawn handling entirely asynchronous to avoid a stalling
<jodh>     cgmanager to block PID 1.
<jodh>   * bug 530779: reworked branch to make the history cleaner.
<ubottu> bug 530779 in upstart "init: does not wait for parent to exit when following forks" [Medium,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/530779
<jodh>   * bug 1258098: Currently working on tests (which will depend on 530779 MP).
<ubottu> bug 1258098 in upstart "D-Bus session bus address not serialised" [Medium,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1258098
<jodh> â
<stgraber> (if anyone's interested, we're getting around 2500 reads/second from the cgroup manager on a standard quadcore i7)
<doko> - cross build fixes
<doko> - configury fixes for a bootstrap build
<doko> - done some cross build things until Sunday
<doko> - working on openjdk/icedtea 2.4.x.  Zero doesn't build, the ARM assembler inter
<doko> preter is not ported
<doko> - Merging various GCC branches into 4.8, uploading.
<doko> (done)
<xnox> * helping to fix autopilot in the android emulator LP: #1260023
<xnox> * emulator installs/runs on precise, without recompilation
<xnox>   (needs more testing, once sdk support lands for precise)
<xnox> * finished tiff transition, src:tiff3 can be removed LP: #1258487
<xnox> * completed / uploaded usb-creator port to udisks2, thus removing
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1260023 in linux-goldfish (Ubuntu) "enable CONFIG_INPUT_UINPUT" [Critical,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1260023
<xnox>   udisks from install media & main LP: #1024405
<xnox> * cmake cross-compilation:
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1258487 in tiff3 (Ubuntu) "please remove tiff3 from the archive" [Medium,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1258487
<xnox>   - merged latest cmake
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1024405 in usb-creator (Ubuntu) "Port to udisks2" [Low,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1024405
<xnox>   - updating/integrating transparent cross-compilation so far many
<xnox>   packages gain cross-compilation, and no native compilation was
<xnox>   broken (testing across the set of main+ubuntu-touch seeds, about 10%
<xnox>   of all packages that build-depend on cmake). Will be uploaded into
<xnox>   the archive soon.
<xnox> * ubiquity uploaded (just small bug fixes since release)
<xnox> * now that ubiquity SRU is through, need to finish up ubiquity SRU
<xnox>   with bugfixes for 12.04.4 (automatic partitioning page, and
<xnox>   wallpaper resolutions)
<xnox> ..
<slangasek>  * continuing post-holidays catch-up
<slangasek>  * lots of meetings / discussions about ongoing commercial projects
<slangasek>  * looking at sorting out some of the more irritating udd package import failures
<slangasek>  * discussions about the state of java (particularly, TCK access)
<slangasek>  * locking down attendance for the sprint
<slangasek>  * opened a new job req for the foundations team: https://ch.tbe.taleo.net/CH03/ats/careers/requisition.jsp?org=CANONICAL&cws=1&rid=750
<slangasek> (done)
<barry> system-image: *finally* got 2.0.3-0ubuntu1 promoted from -proposed by combination of in-tree test suite changes and simplification of the dep-8 tests (among a few other test related changes and much headache-y and mostly futile debugging).
<barry> ubuntu: core-1311-python3-roadmap updates.  recovering from out-of-disk condition.  patch piloting.
<barry> debian: gtimelog (awaiting upstream 0.9.1 release), tox 1.7.0 pre-release testing - looking much better for debian.
<barry> done
<slangasek> cool
<slangasek> I don't really have anything else this morning... you guys have any topics to discuss?
 * barry doesn't
<slangasek> #topic AOB
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: AOB
<bdmurray> Could somebody review my upload of update-manager in the -proposed queue for quantal?
<slangasek> yes, I will
<bdmurray> thanks
<slangasek> nothing more? :)
<slangasek> everyone has their travel booked for the January sprint, right?
<barry> yep!  lax->lhr :)
<stgraber> barry: back to back conferences?
<cjwatson> all 44 pounds of it, yes :)
<doko> ohh, have to do that, writing email
<barry> stgraber: some previously planned non-work related travel
<stgraber> yeah, got my usual flights booked for London (is it a sign I'm going to the same place too often when I remember my "usual" flight numbers? :))
<slangasek> there are usual flight numbers? :)
 * xnox hopes they wouldn't dare to change the color of curtains......
<slangasek> I flew on a one-digit Delta flight number recently
<slangasek> anything else then?
<slangasek> next week will be the last meeting of the year
<barry> slangasek: oh weird :)
<slangasek> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Thu Dec 12 16:27:16 2013 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes (wiki):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2013/ubuntu-meeting.2013-12-12-16.05.moin.txt
<meetingology> Minutes (html):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2013/ubuntu-meeting.2013-12-12-16.05.html
<slangasek> thanks :)
<jodh> thanks!
<xnox> cheers!
<stgraber> I've done LX9 a few times (Chicago to Zurich) but most of my flights are 2 digits (early morning arrival transatlantic ones tend to be)
<barry> thanks!
<stgraber> thanks!
#ubuntu-meeting 2013-12-13
<RealRave1> Good morning.
<RealRave1> ping
<RealRave1> where can I ask some quesitons about Ubuntu 12?
<MooDoo> RealRave1: if it's support try #ubuntu ?
<RealRave1> MooDoo, thanks!
<MooDoo> yw!
<RealRave1> MooDoo: that channel doesn't exist on this server?
<MooDoo> RealRave1: are you on the irc.freenode.net network?  if so then you should be able to join it with /join #ubuntu
<RealRave1> MooDoo: I am on chat.freenode.net and also irc.freenode.net  I am using the built in IRC client of Thunderbird
<MooDoo> then I'm not sure sorry, #ubuntu is the correct channel for ubuntu help/questions.
<RealRave1> must have made a mistake, the join command worked
<MooDoo> :)
<Hassen> meeting of what?ubuntu's developpers?
<MooDoo> have a look at this Hassen http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars/
<Hassen> MooDoo, understood.
<MooDoo> nothing scheduled to today that I can see :D
#ubuntu-meeting 2013-12-14
<westfale> de
#ubuntu-meeting 2014-12-08
<jjohansen> the security team meeting has been postponed, exact time is yet tbd
<jjohansen> \o
 * mdeslaur taps foot waiting for sarnold
<sarnold> gah, sorry, forgot this client doesn't auto-join
<mdeslaur> jjohansen, sbeattie, sarnold, chrisccoulson: meeting!
<mdeslaur> \o
<chrisccoulson> o/
<mdeslaur> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Mon Dec  8 17:50:39 2014 UTC.  The chair is mdeslaur. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
<sarnold> o/
<mdeslaur> The meeting agenda can be found at:
<mdeslaur> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/Meeting
<mdeslaur> no announcements this week
<mdeslaur> [TOPIC] Weekly stand-up report
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Weekly stand-up report
<mdeslaur> I'll go first
<mdeslaur> I've just published some jasper updates
<mdeslaur> and am currently working on an embargoed update
<mdeslaur> I have a short week this week, as I start my holiday vacation on friday
 * mdeslaur laughs diabolical laugh
<sbeattie> heh
<mdeslaur> and if I have time, I'll try and do a couple of other updates before I go
<mdeslaur> that's it, sbeattie, you're up
<sbeattie> I also have a short week this week, I'm off tomorrow and friday.
<sbeattie> I'm still working on the pie-on-amd64 compiler stuff
<sbeattie> I have a mutt update in progress
<mdeslaur> have you been lurking the pie thread on oss-sec?
<sbeattie> and I have a bunch of apparmor patches to catch up on.
<sbeattie> mdeslaur: I haven't yet, but plan to look at it this morning.
<sbeattie> that's pretty much it for me.
<sbeattie> jjohansen: I think you're next.
<jjohansen> so I have some review to do a the apparmor patch queue to do
<jjohansen> and I will be working on revising the kernel patch series for upstreaming
<jjohansen> I think that is all that is currently planned, sarnold your up
<mdeslaur> sarnold: wake up
<sarnold> I'm on a short week this week and next week, two days off of each of them, not entirely sure which days yet though, trying to coordinate with electricians and maybe (hopefully not) a plumber..
<sarnold> I'm finishing up a security update for graphviz today, returning to an in-progress MIR, and hopefully going to make my way through some of tyhicks's apparmor patches
<jjohansen> sarnold: but unplanned swimming pools are fun
<sarnold> jjohansen: surprise pool! yay!
<sarnold> I think that's it for me, chrisccoulson?
<chrisccoulson> Very short week for me this week - I'm only here today and tomorrow :)
<chrisccoulson> I've got one embargoed update to do. Other than that, I'll be trying to cram whatever I can in between now and tomorrow afternoon
<chrisccoulson> That's me done
<mdeslaur> cool
<mdeslaur> ok, that's everyone
<mdeslaur> [TOPIC] Highlighted packages
<mdeslaur> The Ubuntu Security team will highlight some community-supported packages that might be good candidates for updating and or triaging. If you would like to help Ubuntu and not sure where to start, this is a great way to do so.
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Highlighted packages
<mdeslaur> See https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/UpdateProcedures for details and if you have any questions, feel free to ask in #ubuntu-security. To find out other ways of helping out, please see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/GettingInvolved.
<mdeslaur> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/rocksndiamonds.html
<mdeslaur> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/stunnel4.html
<mdeslaur> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/ekiga.html
<mdeslaur> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/c-icap.html
<mdeslaur> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/localepurge.html
<mdeslaur> [TOPIC] Miscellaneous and Questions
<mdeslaur> Does anyone have any other questions or items to discuss?
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Miscellaneous and Questions
<mdeslaur> Thanks everyone!
<mdeslaur> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Mon Dec  8 18:01:38 2014 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2014/ubuntu-meeting.2014-12-08-17.50.moin.txt
<jjohansen> thanks mdeslaur
<sarnold> thanks mdeslaur :)
#ubuntu-meeting 2014-12-09
<TheClone2045> hey hi guyz..
<smoser> o/
<matsubara> o/
<gnuoy> o/
<smb>  /o\
<coreycb> o/
<beisner> o/
<arges> o/
<caribou> o/
<sforshee> o/
<smoser> oh well, i'll do this.
<smoser> #startmeeting ubuntu-server-team
<meetingology> Meeting started Tue Dec  9 16:05:28 2014 UTC.  The chair is smoser. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic:
<jamespage> o/
<smoser> welcome everyone to the UbuntuServerTeam meeting
<smoser> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/Meeting
<smoser> #topic Review ACTION points from previous meeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Review ACTION points from previous meeting
<smoser> matsubara to chase someone that can update release bugs report
<smoser> hm..
<smoser> must just be empty ?
<smoser> is that possible ?
<smoser> or still broken
<smoser> the bug is marked fixed release
<smoser> but http://reqorts.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/rls-mgr/ showszero length 'rls-v-tracking-bug-tasks.html'
<kickinz1> o/
<matsubara> smoser, that's fixed
<smoser> matsubara, but its empty.
<smoser> http://reqorts.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/rls-mgr/rls-v-tracking-bug-tasks.html
<matsubara> smoser, hmm last week when I looked at that report there was some content.
<smoser> could you dig a bit again ?
<matsubara> smoser, yep, keep the action please
<smoser> ACTION: matsubara re-check on http://reqorts.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/rls-mgr/rls-v-tracking-bug-tasks.html#ubuntu-server
<smoser> #ACTION: matsubara re-check on http://reqorts.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/rls-mgr/rls-v-tracking-bug-tasks.html#ubuntu-server
<meetingology> ACTION: : matsubara re-check on http://reqorts.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/rls-mgr/rls-v-tracking-bug-tasks.html#ubuntu-server
<smoser> #topic Vivid Development
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Vivid Development
<smoser> #link https://wiki.ubuntu.com/VividVervet/ReleaseSchedule
<smoser> alpha-1 is coming up.
<smoser> decemer 18.
<smoser> #subtopic Release Bugs
<smoser> we'll skip that given action above
<smoser> #subtopic Blueprints
<smoser> #link http://status.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-v/group/topic-v-server.html
<smoser> please do take a look at the things you're expecting to do for vivid and make sure they're covered in blueprints
<smoser> #topic Server & Cloud Bugs (caribou)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Server & Cloud Bugs (caribou)
<caribou> smoser: nothing outstanding to say this week
<smoser> #topic Weekly Updates & Questions for the QA Team (psivaa)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Weekly Updates & Questions for the QA Team (psivaa)
<psivaa_> smoser: nothing from here for this week too
<psivaa_> smoser: would help if you could find someone on QA team for this meeting :), i am not working in the QA team anymoer
<smoser> #topic Weekly Updates & Questions for the Kernel Team (smb, sforshee, arges)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Weekly Updates & Questions for the Kernel Team (smb, sforshee, arges)
<smb> Not from my side. arges, sforshee?
<arges> nope
<smoser> psivaa_, ok. thanks.
<smoser> #topic Ubuntu Server Team Events
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Ubuntu Server Team Events
<smoser> anyoen have anythign here ?
<beisner> psivaa_, smoser - i'll work on finding our new qa team rep.
<beisner> thanks psivaa_ !
<psivaa_> beisner: thank you
<smoser> beisner, thank you
<smoser> #topic Open Discussion
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Open Discussion
<smoser> anything
<coreycb> zul likes turtles
<kickinz1> snappy released!
<zul> indeed
<kickinz1> ubuntu.com/snappy
<coreycb> kickinz1, nice!
<smoser> yeah, thanks kickinz1 . thanks to all who worked on that.
<smoser> gaughen, and kickinz1 made a lot of effort to pull this together
<kickinz1> yes, lot of people need to go to bed now... ;)
<smoser> #topic Announce next meeting date and time
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Announce next meeting date and time
<smoser> next meeting is Tuesday 2014-12-16 at 1600 UTC
<smoser> and kickinz1 will lead for us
<gaughen> kickinz1, and smoser - you both did. ROCKIN WORK GUYS!!!!@!!!!!!!!
<smoser> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Tue Dec  9 16:19:44 2014 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2014/ubuntu-meeting.2014-12-09-16.05.moin.txt
<kickinz1> will be on vacation, and I'm not dodging this, I promise!
<gnuoy> ta smoser
<gaughen> kickinz1, I'm on to you
<kickinz1> thanks a lot smoser.
<caribou> thanks smoser
<gaughen> thanks smoser!!!
<teward> tew5132AlphaOmicron@2012!
<teward> ooops
<teward> sorry that's a random string :/
 * teward kicks his computer for lagging and copying things into wrong windows
<jsalisbury> #startmeeting
<jsalisbury> ##
<jsalisbury> ## This is the Ubuntu Kernel Team weekly status meeting.
<jsalisbury> ##
<jsalisbury> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/Meeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Tue Dec  9 17:00:08 2014 UTC.  The chair is jsalisbury. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
<jsalisbury> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/ReleaseStatus/Vivid
<jsalisbury> # Meeting Etiquette
<jsalisbury> #
<jsalisbury> # NOTE: '..' indicates that you are finished with your input.
<jsalisbury> #       'o/' indicates you have something to add (please wait until you are recognized)
<jsalisbury> Roll Call for Ubuntu Kernel Weekly Status Meeting
<arges> o/
<cking> o/
<ppisati> o/
<sforshee> o/
<bjf> \o
<henrix> o/
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] Release Metrics and Incoming Bugs (jsalisbury)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Release Metrics and Incoming Bugs (jsalisbury)
<jsalisbury> Release metrics and incoming bug data can be reviewed at the following link:
<jsalisbury> [LINK] http://people.canonical.com/~kernel/reports/kt-meeting.txt
<jsalisbury> ..
<chiluk> o/
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] Status: Vivid Development Kernel (ogasawara)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Status: Vivid Development Kernel (ogasawara)
<smb> o/
<ogasawara> yeeeek!
<ogasawara> 2 secs
<ogasawara> The master-next branch of our Vivid kernel has been rebased to the
<ogasawara> final v3.18 upstream kernel.  We have pushed uploads to our team's PPA
<ogasawara> for preliminary testing.  We'll likely upload to the official archive
<ogasawara> soon.
<ogasawara> -----
<ogasawara> Important upcoming dates:
<ogasawara> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/VividVervet/ReleaseSchedule
<ogasawara> Thurs Dec 18 - Vivid Alpha 1 (~1 weeks away)
<ogasawara> Thurs Jan 22 - Vivid Alpha 2 (~6 weeks away)
<ogasawara> Fri Jan 9 - 14.04.2 Kernel Freeze (~4 weeks away)
<ogasawara> Thurs Feb 5 - 14.04.2 Point Release (~8 weeks away)
<ogasawara> ..
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] Status: CVE's
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Status: CVE's
<jsalisbury> The current CVE status can be reviewed at the following link:
<jsalisbury> http://people.canonical.com/~kernel/cve/pkg/ALL-linux.html
<jsalisbury> ..
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] Status: Stable, Security, and Bugfix Kernel Updates - Utopic/Trusty/Precise/Lucid (bjf/henrix/kamal/arges)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Status: Stable, Security, and Bugfix Kernel Updates - Utopic/Trusty/Precise/Lucid (bjf/henrix/kamal/arges)
<bjf> Status for the main kernels, until today:
<bjf>   *   Lucid - Testing
<bjf>   * Precise - Testing
<bjf>   *  Trusty - Testing
<bjf>   *  Utopic - Testing
<bjf>  
<bjf> Current opened tracking bugs details:
<bjf>   * http://kernel.ubuntu.com/sru/kernel-sru-workflow.html
<bjf> For SRUs, SRU report is a good source of information:
<bjf>   * http://kernel.ubuntu.com/sru/sru-report.html
<bjf>  
<bjf>  
<bjf> Schedule:
<bjf>  
<bjf> cycle: 21-Nov through 13-Dec
<bjf> ====================================================================
<bjf>          21-Nov   Last day for kernel commits for this cycle
<bjf> 23-Nov - 29-Nov   Kernel prep week.
<bjf> 30-Nov - 13-Dec   Bug verification; Regression testing; Release
<bjf> ..
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] Open Discussion or Questions? Raise your hand to be recognized (o/)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Open Discussion or Questions? Raise your hand to be recognized (o/)
<jsalisbury> Thanks everyone
<jsalisbury> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Tue Dec  9 17:03:57 2014 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2014/ubuntu-meeting.2014-12-09-17.00.moin.txt
#ubuntu-meeting 2014-12-11
 * slangasek waves
<mvo> hi
<sil2100> o/
<slangasek> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Thu Dec 11 16:00:11 2014 UTC.  The chair is slangasek. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
<robru> hola
<slangasek> [TOPIC] Lightning round
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Lightning round
<slangasek> $ echo $(shuf -e barry doko stgraber jodh bdmurray slangasek cjwatson caribou infinity mvo sil2100 robru)
<slangasek> slangasek mvo doko sil2100 caribou stgraber bdmurray robru jodh barry cjwatson infinity
<slangasek>  * snappy cloud launch
<slangasek>   * no longer embargoed, so now weekly reports may be more useful for a while ;)
<slangasek>   * marvelous work by everyone involved, the new image is being well-received
<slangasek>   * questions? see #snappy
<slangasek>  * working through HR bits related to the various backfill roles
<slangasek>  * my last day of work for the year is Dec 16 (next Tuesday), grab me sooner rather than later if you need anything :)
<slangasek> (done)
<slangasek> mvo:
<mvo> last week: work on project snappy, virtual sprint
<mvo> next week: work on project snappy
<mvo> (done)
<doko> - still working on the ISL 0.14 transition
<doko> - fixing GCC cross builds with new dpkg
<doko> - fixing powerpc and ARM cross builds
<doko> - fix building GCC 4.7
<doko> - python 2.7.9 release
<doko> - trying to get GCC trunk to build on all archs for a first test rebuild
<doko> (done)
<sil2100> - Landing team work, silos coordination, preparing landing e-mails
<sil2100> - Preparing and announcing the Landing Classes
<sil2100> - Transition upower to 0.99 in ubuntu-rtm
<sil2100>   * Land the modified touch bits: ubuntu-system-settings and powerd
<sil2100>   * Deal with the transition to make proposed migration
<sil2100>   * Rebuild and sync all required desktop packages
<sil2100> - Ubuntu Engineering Live!
<sil2100> - RTM status meetings
<sil2100> - Some fix attempts for CI Train
<sil2100> - Merge reviews of appmenu-qt5 branches
<sil2100> - Landing coordination
<sil2100> - Many smaller tasks here and there
<sil2100> (done)
<slangasek> hmm, dpkg broke gcc cross-builds?
<slangasek> caribou: hi, you're just in time :)
<caribou> well, not much to talk about aside from regular bugfix
<caribou> looking for sponsors, testing snappy, the usual
<caribou> (done)
<slangasek> :)
<slangasek> stgraber:
<stgraber> snappy, lxd, sprint
<stgraber> (done)
<sil2100> ;)
<caribou> stgraber: wow you beat me!
<stgraber> caribou: :)
<sil2100> One liner!
<bdmurray> review of retrace failures due to missing ddebs
<bdmurray> uploaded packages to get ddebs for all architectures
<bdmurray> modified daisy retracer to write to BucketRetraceFailureReasons CF
<bdmurray> updated oops-repository branch and created new oops-repository package
<bdmurray> pushed daisy/retracer.py changes to use BucketRetraceFailureReason CF
<bdmurray> updated diasy-retracer charm to run schema.py from oops-repository
<bdmurray> worked with thedac to verify configuration / status of retracers in scaling stack
<bdmurray> commited a fix for a traceback with retracers looking up data in the BucketRetraceFailureReason CF
<bdmurray> committed changes to daisy/retracer.py to better handle being killed by retracers-cache-restart
<bdmurray> modifications to errors code to display retrace failure reason for a bucket
<bdmurray> pushed errors r509 which provides specific info about why a retrace failed
<bdmurray> merged dames's changes to daisy-retracer charm to use a cache-debs configuration option
<bdmurray> fixed DevelReleaseAnnouncement in ubuntu-release-upgrader for Vivid
<bdmurray> confirmed that apport_crashes in DistUpgradeViewGtk3 set DistroRelease to 15.04
<stgraber> well, internet is so sluggish here that typing anything more just wasn't really an option :)
<bdmurray> modified DistUpgradeViewText in u-r-u to call apport_crash
<bdmurray> reported ubuntu-release-upgrader bug LP: #1399455 regarding DistUpgradeViewGtk3
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1399455 in ubuntu-release-upgrader (Ubuntu Vivid) "distribution upgrade from utopic uses DistUpgradeViewText" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1399455
<bdmurray> reported ubuntu-release-upgrader bug LP: #1399836 re RELEASE_UPRADER_NO_APPORT
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1399836 in ubuntu-release-upgrader (Ubuntu Vivid) "RELEASE_UPRADER_NO_APPORT seems to have no effect" [Medium,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1399836
<bdmurray> SRU verification of bug LP: #1313165
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1313165 in ubuntu-release-upgrader (Ubuntu Trusty) "removal blacklist matches update-manager-kde which is not critical anymore" [High,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1313165
<bdmurray> submitted check-contents-server-age merge proposal for apport (partial fix of LP: #1370230)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1370230 in Apport "apport-retrace has become slower" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1370230
<bdmurray> commited a fix to bzr for whoopsie bug LP: #1392412
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1392412 in whoopsie (Ubuntu) "may frequently try to upload reports when server responds with 400" [Medium,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1392412
<bdmurray> â done
<robru> * emergency CI Train repairs after creds leak
<robru> * ongoing work to update charm / mojo spec for deploying citrain
<robru>   - looks like we're close to having working production deployments, with MP submitted to IS for review
<robru>   - still lots of work needed to make a functional staging deployment for testing branches before pushing them to production.
<robru> * lots of silos assign & published for ongoing landings.
<robru> (done)
<barry> no jodh today i think?
<barry> snappy: stuff.  LP: #1399687.  LP: #1400605.  LP: #1400308
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1399687 in Ubuntu system image "Provide "version_detail" for latest revision on server" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1399687
<ubottu> Error: Launchpad bug 1400605 could not be found
<ubottu> Error: Launchpad bug 1400308 could not be found
<barry> system-image: LP: #1373467 (resurrecting branch)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1373467 in Ubuntu system image "Support config.d directory" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1373467
<barry> other: claws-mail 3.11.1-3ubuntu1
<barry> --done--
<slangasek> bdmurray: ... "UPRADER", not "UPGRADER"?
<slangasek> (maybe just a cut'n'paste of the misspelling in the bug title?)
 * doko is leaving now. will read scrollback tonight when I'm back
<cjwatson> hi, sorry I'm late, had to pick up a Christmas present, somewhat miscalculated its size relative to my bike panniers and had to walk most of the way home :-/
<bdmurray> slangasek: that's not my typo
<slangasek> bdmurray: the typo is in the code?
<bdmurray> slangasek: indeed
<mvo> bdmurray: *cough*
<slangasek> cjwatson: hi, your turn :)
 * mvo hopes it was a contributed patch 
<slangasek> DARTH_VADER_NO_APPORT=1
<cjwatson> this week I merged latest Debian code into proposed-migration, since an importer failure at one point had meant that I hadn't noticed upstream commits for a year or so - should now be less pathologically slow in some edge cases and has clearer output for some things, there's also update_excuses.yaml in case anyone wants to build something on that
<cjwatson> made use of the new clearer output for old vs. missing builds to clear up some old cruft
<mvo> slangasek:   https://launchpad.net/~blatant-and-awkward
<cjwatson> chipped in on the odd snappy discussion where useful
<slangasek> mvo: hah
<cjwatson> helped with webops' debugging of why the Canonical mumble server is down (James W eventually beat me to finding the cause - lazr.restfulclient bug in lucid)
<cjwatson> whole bunch of merges and bits and pieces of knowledge transfer
<cjwatson> ..
<slangasek> and no infinity this morning
<cjwatson> oh yeah and I probably helped out with the CI Train repairs
<slangasek> nothing like doing repairs on the train live while it's going through the tunnel
<slangasek> (watch your head)
<slangasek> [TOPIC] AOB
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: AOB
<slangasek> anything else?
<sil2100> I'll take a holiday tomorrow o/
<slangasek> there are quite a few of those coming up
<bdmurray> are those being given away?
<cjwatson> yeah, I'm on holiday Fri, Mon, Tue AM
<slangasek> does someone else want to volunteer to run the meeting next week?
 * mvo would run it but maybe on vac then already
<slangasek> well, I guess whoever's here next Thursday can figure it out amongst themselves :)
<slangasek> anything else besides EOY vacations?
<slangasek> stgraber sending is pics of sunny capetown with people wearing santa hats?
<slangasek> s/is/us/
<mvo> haha
<stgraber> slangasek: sorry, not enough bandwidth to upload my photos just yet :)
<stgraber> I do have a christmas tree next to me though
<slangasek> :-)
<slangasek> ok
<slangasek> short meeting then... everybody's busy snapping up snappy
<slangasek> I'll let you get back to it
<slangasek> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Thu Dec 11 16:20:38 2014 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2014/ubuntu-meeting.2014-12-11-16.00.moin.txt
<caribou> thanks slangasek
<barry> thanks1
<slangasek> thanks!
<mvo> thanks
<sil2100> THanks!
#ubuntu-meeting 2015-12-07
<ginggs> hi, anyone around?
<egon> yep
<cyphermox> yeah, but we may not have Laney to have quorum for the meeting
 * stgraber waves
#ubuntu-meeting 2015-12-08
<smoser> hey all.
<smoser> sorry for late start, but lets start irc meeting.
<smoser> #startmeeting ubuntu-server-team
<meetingology> Meeting started Tue Dec  8 16:21:25 2015 UTC.  The chair is smoser. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic:
<smoser> #topic Review ACTION points from previous meeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Review ACTION points from previous meeting
<smoser> looks like no action points at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/Meeting
<smoser> #topic Xenial Development
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Xenial Development
<smoser> #link https://wiki.ubuntu.com/XenialXerus/ReleaseSchedule
<smoser> Alpha 1 is end of December
<smoser> its a good time to shoot to have things landed.
<smoser> so that you can spend time after that fixing things.
 * smoser has some things he needs to get a move on.
<smoser> #link
<smoser> http://reqorts.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/rls-mgr/rls-x-tracking-bug-tasks.html#ubuntu-server
<smoser> i'll take the cloud-init one there for ubutnu server and assign to me.
<smoser> shoot. that was
<smoser> #subtopic Release Bugs
<smoser> if you ahve other bugs that need attention , please raise them.
<smoser> unrelated to ubuntu server, smoser wonders if others see https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/unity/+bug/1521302
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1521302 in unity (Ubuntu) "gnome-terminal maximize than un-maximize behaves odd" [Undecided,New]
<smoser> #topic Server & Cloud Bugs (caribou)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Server & Cloud Bugs (caribou)
<smoser> caribou, you have anything for us ?
<caribou> no, nothing this week, thanks
<smoser> #topic Weekly Updates & Questions for the QA Team (matsubara)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Weekly Updates & Questions for the QA Team (matsubara)
<smoser> matsubara, ?
<matsubara> Hi smoser, nothing to report today
 * smoser has been happy with matsubara's work on curtin vmtest
<smoser> #topic Weekly Updates & Questions for the Kernel Team (smb, sforshee, arges)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Weekly Updates & Questions for the Kernel Team (smb, sforshee, arges)
<smb> I got nothing to report. If there are no requests lets move along.
<matsubara> thanks :-)
 * smoser is loving his shiney 4.3 kernel, smb.  thanks
<smoser> higher numbers always mean better stuff.
<smoser> #topic Upcoming Call For Papers
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Upcoming Call For Papers
<smoser> anyone have anythign here ?
<smoser> k. guess not.
<smoser> #topic Ubuntu Server Team Events
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Ubuntu Server Team Events
<smoser> anything ?
<smoser> #topic Open Discussion
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Open Discussion
<smoser> anyone have anythign for this ?
<smoser> ok.
<smoser> #topic Announce next meeting date, time and chair
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Announce next meeting date, time and chair
<smoser> you'll have to wait an entire 7 days for another exciting Ubuntu Server Team meeting folks.
<smoser> Tuesday December 15 11:00:00 UTC 2015
<hallyn> 16:00 ?
<smoser> fiddle
<hallyn> smoser's doing that teacher's trick, seeing if anyone is watching
<smoser> glad you were paying attention, hallyn.
<smoser> you get 3 bonus dojo points
<hallyn> \o/
<smoser> Tuesday December 15 16:00:00 UTC 2015
<smoser> smoser ... good day
<smoser> #end meeting
<smoser> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Tue Dec  8 16:32:23 2015 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2015/ubuntu-meeting.2015-12-08-16.21.moin.txt
<hallyn> thx
<caribou> thanks!
<rbasak> Thanks smoser!
#ubuntu-meeting 2015-12-10
<pitti> o/
 * slangasek waves
<infinity> \o
<cyphermox> hello
<sil2100> o/
<tdaitx> o/
<caribou> o/
<slangasek> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Thu Dec 10 16:02:36 2015 UTC.  The chair is slangasek. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
<slangasek> [TOPIC] Lightning round
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Lightning round
<slangasek> $ echo $(shuf -e barry doko bdmurray slangasek caribou infinity sil2100 robru cyphermox pitti tdaitx xnox chiluk)
<slangasek> bdmurray robru pitti barry infinity doko xnox cyphermox chiluk sil2100 tdaitx caribou slangasek
<slangasek> bdmurray:
<bdmurray> here, just a momment
<bdmurray> worked on mojo specification for the error tracker
<bdmurray> cleaning up / fixing of juju charms for the error tracker
<bdmurray> discussed oopsrepository (removing dpkg comparator) change w/ stub
<bdmurray> made oopsrepository (removing dpkg comparator)
<bdmurray> SRU verification of distro-info-data for W (LP: #1508759)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1508759 in distro-info-data (Ubuntu Wily) "Update to include xenial" [Medium,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1508759
<xnox_> oops, i should join this
<bdmurray> foundations bug triage
<bdmurray> tested libopenssl1.0.0 upgrade bug LP: #1495302
<bdmurray> tested upgrade from T to X (VM dies)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1495302 in openssl (Ubuntu) "subprocess installed post-installation script returned error exit status 10" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1495302
<xnox_> xnox is running on the desktop at home.
<bdmurray> â done
<robru> lp:cupstream2distro
<robru> * Implement three-way diffing in order to finally achieve new commit detection The Right Way
<robru> * Fix `pbuilder --clean` invocation so that pbuilder cache no longer fills disk
<robru> * Catch up with some basenode changes fixing our rsync config.
<robru> * Add debian packaging so that CI Train can self-host (that's right, I now use the train to do train releases)
<robru> * production unit redeployed, increasing root disk from 10GB -> 50GB disk so it can never run out of space ever again
<bdmurray> "never"?
<robru> lp:bileto
<robru> * Add debian packaging so that Bileto can self-host (as above)
<robru> * Britney enablement nears completion:
<robru>  - templating of britney.conf is working
<robru>  - downloading all necessary archive indexes is working
<robru>  - invoking britney and reporting status into bileto still ongoing
<robru> lp:bileto/charm
<robru> * add support for specifying amqp URI for submitting autopkgtests.
<robru> (finito)
<robru> bdmurray: NEVER
<pitti> autopkgtest:
<pitti>  - Add LXD runner (necessary for moving armhf tests to cloud), and sorted out a few related lxd issues with stgraber
<pitti>  - Fix tests with failed builds staying "in progress" forever, test failures with failed upgrades of Priority >= important packages under apt pinning, and some other corner cases
<pitti>  - Improve debugging of nova failures, and handle those more robustly
<pitti>  - Generalize worker to work with any autopkgtest virt server (in particular, MaaS and upcoming LXD)
<pitti>  - Show test triggers in web UI
<pitti>  - Initial validation of new s390x autopkgtest machines, set up autopkgtest workers, file RTs and requests for production readiness
<pitti> misc:
<pitti>  - apport: Fix long report load times (#1516947), fix failing test cases
<pitti>  - merges: lvm2 (ugh), step
<pitti>  - Help didrocks with the plymouth merge
<robru> bdmurray: seriously though it went from "10GB disk and endlessly growing cache" to "50GB disk and we clear the cache after every build"
<pitti>  - Discuss ubuntu-make test migration from s-jenkins with didrocks, resulted in two (relatively small) WIs for me
<pitti>  - Help untangling apt and Qt transitions in -proposed
<pitti>  - python-dbusmock: Review/fix/merge Pete Wood's NetworkManager template update, new upstream release
<pitti> ð
<barry> short week due to illness and pto
<barry> helped colleague with some dateutil bugs
<slangasek> pitti: ah, does that mean we should assign any new plymouth bugs to you ;)
<barry> continued work on pip 7.1.2
<barry> continued work on dirtbike
<barry> LP: #1523806; LP: #1523979
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1523806 in system-image (Ubuntu) "/usr/sbin/system-image-dbus:UnicodeDecodeError:/usr/sbin/system-image-dbus@5:/usr/lib/python3/dist-packages/pkg_resources/__init__.py@3143:_call_aside:_initialize_master_working_set:_build_master:__init__:add_entry:find_on_path:from_location:_version_from_metadata:_version_from_file:decode" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1523806
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1523979 in Next Generation Checkbox (GUI) "checkbox calls unittest.discover with an incorrect start_dir" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1523979
<pitti> slangasek: no, to didrocks :)
<barry> --done--
<infinity> Short week due to VAC:
<infinity>  - Helped sort out s390x bootstrap and buildds
<infinity>  - Got lts-wily d-i and ISOs ready for 14.04.4
<infinity>  - Worked with apw on unbuggering s390x kernels and metapackages
<infinity>  - Long discussions with aurel32 and upstream about pt_chown
<cyphermox> slangasek: pitti: sorry I did another upload after that ;P
<infinity>  - Looked into more issues with glibc 2.22 in hopes of landing before holidays
<infinity>  - Will be on VAC from Dec 17 to Jan 3
<infinity> (done)
<slangasek> xnox_: you're after doko fwiw
<xnox_> slangasek: tah.
<doko> - python 2.7.11, 3.4.4 rc1, 3.5.1 releases
<doko> - GCC 5.3 release
<doko> - started GCC 6 packaging
<doko> - nvidia-cuda-toolkit transition
<doko> - sped up pkgbinarymangler, now png files are optimized in parallel, and dh_build works in parallel mode again
<doko> - fixed all ftbfs for various gcc-4.7 based cross compilers, fixed gcc-4.7 itself
<doko> - built gmp, ppl and cloog-ppl for the old libstdc++ ABI, demoted ppl and cloog-ppl
<doko> (done)
<xnox_> - review ubiquity
<xnox_> - resolve ubuntu-meta installation / qtbase / indicator etc.
<xnox_> - submit proposals for ubuntu-cdimage and the livefs-rootfs
<xnox_> - fix checkbox
<xnox_> - doko
<xnox_> - review cpc changes to livefs-rootfs
<xnox_> - ongoing image building work
<xnox_> - ongoing archive breakage & fixing (everything is broken at the moment on !s390x)
<doko> xnox, that's an odd topic ...
 * pitti doesn't understand xnox's "doko" item, what did you do to thim??
<xnox_> - bluefin christmas party later today
<xnox_> doko: pitti: copy and paste error.
 * xnox_ is copying from keep.google.com and it doesn't do things right
<sil2100> ;)
 * pitti pats good ol' plain text files
<slangasek> pitti: "file RTs and requests for production readiness" - what does this last part mean?  what besides the firewall is a (known) blocker for putting s390x autopkgtest into production?
<xnox_> and I'm on holiday 17th-3rd i believe too (holiday + closure)
<xnox_> (done)
<cyphermox> so high tech, I also just use plaintext
<cyphermox>  - more testing/fixage in ubiquity for signature validation
<cyphermox>  - merged lilo-installer
<cyphermox>  - merged hw-detect
<cyphermox>  - fixed network-manager-applet uninstallability when building live images
<cyphermox>  - merged base-installer
<cyphermox>  - fixed plymouth /lib/plymouth migration for debootstrapped installs.
<pitti> slangasek: the instances (as of this morning) were way too small and supported only 4 parallel runners
<cyphermox>  - testing d-i components integration in ubiquity
<cyphermox>  - merging grub-installer (in progress)
<cyphermox>  - helped newell installing with d-i to verify grub2 2.02~beta2-22ubuntu1.3
<cyphermox>  - merging usb-creator rework from mdeslaur
<pitti> slangasek: I got two new emails now, could alreayd have been fixed now
<cyphermox> (done)
<pitti> slangasek: the firewall RT is actually not a blocker, just enhancement
<slangasek> barry: are you still working on LP: #1522500 ?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1522500 in python-virtualenv (Ubuntu) "pip in Python 3.4 virtualenvs cannot install using a proxy " [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1522500
<sil2100> chiluk: ? :)
<pitti> slangasek: git isn't available for s390 yet, but I can work around that for now
<barry> slangasek: not specifically, but as part of getting pip modernized
<infinity> pitti: That's fixable.
<slangasek> xnox_: ^^ should git->subversion bootstrapping be prioritized? (do you have time to do this without disrupting the image prep work?)
<sil2100> Ok, I'll go on maybe
<xnox_> slangasek: i can/should yes.
<slangasek> ok
<infinity> slangasek: All it needs is a subversion merge, I was going to do that.
<infinity> Perhaps I'll do it during the meeting. :P
<sil2100> - Landing team work, silo coordination, preparing landing e-mails
<sil2100> - RTM Status meetings
<sil2100> - CI Train:
<sil2100>   * Look into the ghost source-package name issues Simon had with his landing
<sil2100> - system-image:
<sil2100>   * Testing bin/ scripts under the new testable framework
<sil2100>   * Write basic unit tests, start writing specific tests for tag-image, copy-image
<sil2100> - OTA-8.5:
<sil2100>   * Review bugs and fixes
<sil2100>   * Prepare a hotfix silo with snapshot dep for unity8
<sil2100>   * Cherry-pick fixes to the snapshot PPA
<sil2100>   * Prepare image builds for rc (switching configs, building different roofses)
<sil2100>   * Propose fix for installing older preinstalled clicks (camera-app revert)
<sil2100> - Framework additions and changes
<pitti> infinity: oh, is it? looked like the subversion build was blocking on ruby; but ruby and ruby-dev are installable on s390 xenial (I didn't test on -proposed though)
<sil2100> - Landing Team tools:
<sil2100>   * Further improve the PPA state script to include archive changes
<sil2100>   * Work-around bug with unaccessible source publishing history for security PPA builds
<sil2100>   * Add generic script for archive package download
<sil2100>   * Improve image-promote for batch copies and latest-image checks
<sil2100> (done)
<infinity> pitti: No, it's a build-conflict in the old SVN that makes ruby-dev uninstallable.
<tdaitx> merges (libjoda-time, superseeded by a new Debian version on Monday; freipmi; squid3)
<tdaitx> openjdk bug triaging
<tdaitx> testing another fix for openJDK 6 tls patch (LP: #1482924)
<tdaitx> preparing bug control application
<tdaitx> reviewing jtreg test failures
<tdaitx> (done)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1482924 in openjdk-7 (Ubuntu) "Regressions due to USN-2696-1" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1482924
<infinity> pitti: Fixed in the newer version.
<pitti> infinity: ah, nice
<caribou> Bugfix :
<caribou> - rsyslog fails to start under upstart : Investigating
<caribou> - LP: #1494141 - haproxy 1.5 does not terminate
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1494141 in trusty-backports "HAProxy 1.5 init script does not terminate processes" [Medium,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1494141
<caribou> - LP: #1496317 - kdump OOM killer failure
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1496317 in kexec-tools (Ubuntu Wily) "kexec fails with OOM killer with the current crashkernel=128 value" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1496317
<caribou> - Nut merge : waiting for sponsor
<caribou> - Makedumpfile packaging
<caribou> - sosreport packaging & CVE
<caribou> â Done
<cyphermox> oh, I forgot to mention it, we had some issues with findutils yesterday, turns out the version from exp ftbfs and where it did not, broke some things (our d-i in this instance)
<cyphermox> chiluk: ^
<pitti> charles: right, it got pulled already
<infinity> Obviously, the d-i thing is a bug that needs fixing anyway, we were using a deprecated option, but the FTBFS made things messy.
<infinity> And yes, I deleted it.
<pitti> charles: sorry, that was for cyphermox
<cyphermox> infinity: the d-i thing is already fixed it
<infinity> cyphermox: Lovely, thanks.
<cyphermox> also I can't type.
<infinity> That said, if deprecated options were dropped in this release, we probably need to be careful to look for fallout in the archive if we try the upgrade again.
<infinity> findutils affects a LOT of stuff, both at build and runtime.
<cyphermox> yep
<infinity> (And, if we can avoid it, I'd rather not be ahead of Debian on this one)
<slangasek> sil2100: "add generic script for archive package download" ... isn't that already 'apt-get download'?
<cyphermox> or could it be to download all binaries built by one particular source package for an arch, in which case I can contribute a script I have
<slangasek> ah, so non-stable findutils is turning out not to be a clean solution ;)
<slangasek>  * merges
<slangasek>  * discussion with mwhudson about the status of golang packages; preparing for a Debian merge and a new upstream point release
<slangasek>  * s390x everywhere
<slangasek>   * figuring out how to get the autopkgtest slaves online
<slangasek>  * SRU reviews for 14.04.4 HWE stack
<slangasek>  * discussions about LLVM versions for xenial
<slangasek>  * took care of archiving older 14.04 point releases for ppc64el off from cdimage.u.c to old-releases
<slangasek>  * assist with manual down-revving of click package for OTA8.5
<slangasek> (done)
<slangasek> (and sorry for the 5-minute gap while I was catching up with scrollback)
<slangasek> any questions?
<slangasek> tdaitx: did you have a merge awaiting sponsorship for libjoda-time or freeipmi?
<caribou> Need information from cyphermox on LP: #1520192 (multipath-tools Trusty -> Precise SRU)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1520192 in multipath-tools (Ubuntu Precise) "multipath-tools from Precise should have been fixed together with Trusty fixes" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1520192
<cyphermox> oh, that's new
<tdaitx> slangasek, not yet
<caribou> cyphermox: do you think that it is feasible ?
<slangasek> tdaitx: ok
<cyphermox> caribou: yes, provided tinoco or someone else can spend the time to carefully test things
<caribou> cyphermox: well from what it looks, they've already tested it
<tinoco> cyphermox: this same backport looks really good in openstack with vnx.
<tinoco> actually is the only way of fixing openstack migration problems and path becoming active/faulty
<tinoco> caribou: tks louis
<cyphermox> tinoco: ok, let's just circle back and compare the test cases between your bug and mine to be sure we don't miss testing some non-obvious thing
<slangasek> pitti, xnox_, infinity, tinoco: things look to be moving well this morning on the s390x front, based on what I see of my mailbox so far.  Is there anything you need my help to unblock you on?
<tinoco> slangasek: i need 3 ips
<pitti> slangasek: I'm fine; I'll set up production tomorrow morning, assuming that the instances are big enough now
<tinoco> for DEVAC{01,02,03}
<tinoco> so i can release them to foundations team definitely
<slangasek> tinoco: ok, I'll figure that out this morning.  Do I give them to you, or should xnox_ take over the setup from here?
<tinoco> slangasek: after IP xnox_ can review environment and let me know if he needs anything else.
<tinoco> than i would add, just like pitti did
<sil2100> slangasek: I never knew how to use apt-get download/source to download a specific version from the past, or from the selected PPA or from the selected series
<pitti> slangasek: ah, cpu and RAM are fine now, disk is still too small, I'll follow up on the mail
<tinoco> pitti: you have 2 MOD54 (~50GB) to be used
<cyphermox> sil2100: did you alreday write a new script? want to see what I have?
<tinoco> pitti: is this still small for you ?
<xnox_> pitti: there should be a second disk with data.
<sil2100> slangasek: if it's possible then I simply didn't know how, apt-get download/source package=version didn't really do much
<sil2100> cyphermox: I have it
<slangasek> pitti: requirements were 80GB of disk per instance, right?
<tinoco> pitti: /dev/dasdb /dev/dasdc (to be used in LVM or the way you want)
<pitti> tinoco: ah, do I need to mount something new?
<sil2100> cyphermox: my lp:landing-team-tools has different strange scripts ;)
<cyphermox> sil2100: to use apt-get download with package=version you'd need to have the release in sources.list
<sil2100> cyphermox: yeah, and I just use LP API for that
<sil2100> Without any mods needed
<cyphermox> right
<slangasek> sil2100: ah ok :)
<tinoco> pitti: yep. disks are already there. you can use them ;)
<sil2100> I could use chdist, but that's pointles and requires a lot of work
<xnox_> slangasek: i guess it's the evalution of the pull-lp-binary
<xnox_> sil2100: ^
<pitti> tinoco: ah! cooll, thanks
<slangasek> xnox_: right :)
<tinoco> pitti: i sent you an email with details
<xnox_> *evolution
<cyphermox> sil2100: well, if ever it's useful: http://paste.ubuntu.com/13898161/
<cyphermox> xnox_: pretty much yeah
<sil2100> xnox_: well, yeah, for sources, do you have the same for binaries? ;)
<slangasek> [TOPIC] AOB
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: AOB
<sil2100> Anyway, it's a quick script, it's really trivial to do with LP API
<slangasek> not cutting off discussion, just changing the topic, please continue :)
<bdmurray> Does anybody have any ideas about bug 1495302?
<ubottu> bug 1495302 in openssl (Ubuntu) "subprocess installed post-installation script returned error exit status 10" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1495302
<slangasek> exit status 10 points to a debconf issue, yes?
<bdmurray> I think they may not be receiving the restart services dialog
<slangasek> bdmurray: so, db_get should only ever fail if it's asking for the result of a question that's not found in the debconf database
<cyphermox> could this be another instance of debconf prompts not showing because of interactive or whatnot, cf. bug LP: #1434547
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1434547 in glibc (Ubuntu) "package libc6 2.21-0ubuntu1 failed to install/upgrade: subprocess new pre-installation script returned error exit status 128" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1434547
<slangasek> bdmurray: I have the 'libraries/restart-without-asking' question on my system, but it's *not* shown as being owned by openssl
<cyphermox> or maybe not
<slangasek> Owners: libc6, libc6:amd64, libc6:armel, libc6:i386, libpam0g, libpam0g:amd64, libpam0g:i386
<slangasek> which means openssl is asking for the answer to a debconf question, without itself making sure that question is available to debconf
<sil2100> Ok guys, I need to AFK now for a short bit, we go to the vet (again) - this time with our cat ;)
<sil2100> brb
<slangasek> sil2100: heh, enjoy
<pitti> sil2100: you forgot your cat the last time?
<cyphermox> pitti: he goes *with*
<slangasek> bdmurray: so normally the procedure would be for libssl to ship its own copy of this question.  If there's a reason not to do this, then libssl should instead declare a versioned dependency on the version of libc6 that provides the question
<bdmurray> but he should have taken his cat the last time he went. ;-)
 * cyphermox pictures sil2100 riding a cat to the vet
<bdmurray> slangasek: okay
<slangasek> bdmurray: does that give you enough info to follow up on it?
<bdmurray> slangasek: if not I'll ping you later today.
<slangasek> ack
<slangasek> alrighty, anything else?
<slangasek> guess not!
<slangasek> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Thu Dec 10 16:35:20 2015 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2015/ubuntu-meeting.2015-12-10-16.02.moin.txt
<slangasek> thanks, all!
<caribou> slangasek: thanks!
<barry> thanks!
<tdaitx> thanks
<pitti> thanks everyone!
#ubuntu-meeting 2016-12-12
<tyhicks> hello
<tyhicks> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Mon Dec 12 16:37:43 2016 UTC.  The chair is tyhicks. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
<tyhicks> The meeting agenda can be found at:
<tyhicks> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/Meeting
<tyhicks> [TOPIC] Announcements
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Announcements
<tyhicks> Brian Morton provided debdiffs for precise-trusty for proftpd-dfsg (LP: #1462311)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1462311 in Proftpd Dfsg "proftpd mod_copy issue (CVE-2015-3306)" [Critical,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1462311
<tyhicks> Otto KekÃ¤lÃ¤inen (otto) provided debdiffs for yakkety-xenial for mariadb-10.0 (LP: #1638125)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1638125 in mariadb-10.0 (Ubuntu Zesty) "USN-3109-1: MySQL vulnerabilities partially applies to MariaDB too" [High,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1638125
<tyhicks> Otto KekÃ¤lÃ¤inen (otto) provided debdiffs for trusty for mariadb-5.5 (LP: #1638125)
<tyhicks> Thank you for your assistance in keeping Ubuntu users secure! :)
<tyhicks> [TOPIC] Weekly stand-up report
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Weekly stand-up report
<tyhicks> mdeslaur: go ahead (we'll circle back to Jamie since he's in the middle of another conversation)
<mdeslaur> I'm on triage
<mdeslaur> but i'm only here today, I'm off for the holidays starting tomorrow
<tyhicks> ratliff will take over triage after today
<tyhicks> cve triage, that is
<mdeslaur> I'm currently working on embargoed issues
<mdeslaur> that's it from me
<tyhicks> sbeattie: you're up
<sbeattie> I'm in the happy place this week
<sbeattie> it's a short week for me, I'm off thursday and friday
<sbeattie> I'll try to pick up an update this week, possibly one or more of the embargoed issue mdeslaur is working on
<sbeattie> I have some apparmor work to do to get the release out
<tyhicks> do you plan on getting the release out before you go on vacation?
<sbeattie> I also have some misc kernel triage/tasks to look after.
<sbeattie> tyhicks: I'll be back next week (for another short week)
<tyhicks> oh
<tyhicks> ok
<sbeattie> but yes, planning to get the release out before the holidays
<sbeattie> anyway, that'll likely consume my week.
<sbeattie> tyhicks: on to you
<tyhicks> I'm going to be taking over bug triage this week
<tyhicks> I'm going to be verifying the trusty dbus and apparmor SRUs (LP: #1641243)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1641243 in apparmor (Ubuntu Trusty) "Provide full AppArmor confinement for snaps on 14.04" [High,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1641243
<tyhicks> I hope to finish up the seccomp logging changes - I think I only need to finish adding tests to libseccomp
<tyhicks> however, the kernel merge window just opened up so the kernel changes aren't likely to land until the next kernel
<tyhicks> I am going to publish some embargoed issues that mdeslaur and others are working on
<tyhicks> I have some sprint prep to do
<tyhicks> and I still have a number of ecryptfs issues on my plate (haven't been able to work on them at all)
<tyhicks> that's it for me
<tyhicks> I don't see jj
<tyhicks> sarnold_: go ahead
<sarnold_> I'm on community this week
<sarnold_> I seem to recall seeing some sponsored updates from last week, and I'm not sure what state my schroots or vms are in, so it' spossible much of this week will be yak shaving to do the updates
<sarnold_> with what time is left I'll head on to swift-s3-something-mumble MIR
<tyhicks> I got through all of the sponsorings (d2u and debdiff) last week
<sarnold_> libav too?
<sarnold_> or was that ffmpeg?
<tyhicks> didn't see that one, so I guess I didn't get through them all
<ratliff> ffmpeg
<sarnold_> that's me done, jjohansen?
<jjohansen> yep
<jjohansen> Its a short week for me again, I friday off
<jjohansen> I am following up with a couple of bugs that got fixed last week
<jjohansen> I still need to look into the mount issue, that jdstrand encountered
<jjohansen> and I need to work on gsettings
<tyhicks> by following up, you mean SRU verification?
<jjohansen> tyhicks: well, bugging people to ensure the patches worked for them, and sending them up to the kt
<tyhicks> jjohansen: ^
<tyhicks> ah
<tyhicks> thanks
<jjohansen> thats it for /me back to you tyhicks
<tyhicks> ratliff: you're up
<ratliff> I'm on bug triage today, CVE triage after today.
<ratliff> I have some reviews pending to complete and I need to prepare the zesty ghostscript debdiff.
<ratliff> back to you tyhicks
<tyhicks> jdstrand: go ahead
<jdstrand> finialize dbus PR
<jdstrand> finalize network-namespace-control PR
<jdstrand> various PR reviews
<jdstrand> various snappy personal reviews/design discussions
<jdstrand> start working on seccomp arg filtering
<jdstrand> last week I actually got to work on a few things, so I think dbus and network-namespace PRs may land soon
<jdstrand> that's it from me
<tyhicks> thanks jdstrand
<tyhicks> [TOPIC] Highlighted packages
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Highlighted packages
<tyhicks> The Ubuntu Security team will highlight some community-supported packages that might be good candidates for updating and or triaging. If you would like to help Ubuntu and not sure where to start, this is a great way to do so.
<tyhicks> See https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/UpdateProcedures for details and if you have any questions, feel free to ask in #ubuntu-security. To find out other ways of helping out, please see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/GettingInvolved.
<tyhicks> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/node-uuid.html
<tyhicks> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/node-qs.html
<tyhicks> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/transifex-client.html
<tyhicks> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/blender.html
<tyhicks> [TOPIC] Miscellaneous and Questions
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Miscellaneous and Questions
<tyhicks> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/pdns.html
<tyhicks> Does anyone have any other questions or items to discuss?
<tyhicks> jdstrand, mdeslaur, sbeattie, jjohansen, sarnold, ratliff: Thanks!
<tyhicks> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Mon Dec 12 16:59:34 2016 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2016/ubuntu-meeting.2016-12-12-16.37.moin.txt
<mdeslaur> thanks tyhicks!
<sarnold_> thanks tyhicks!
<sbeattie> tyhicks: thanks!
<jjohansen> thanks tyhicks
<ratliff> thank you, tyhicks!
<slashd> o/ rbasak fossfreedom
<rbasak> o/
<fossfreedom> hi!
<sil2100> p/
<micahg> o/
<rbasak> Need one more.
<fossfreedom> cross-fingers
<slashd> cyphermox ping
<BenC> o/
<rbasak> o/
<rbasak> Who's chairing this meeting?
<rbasak> Any volunteers?
<sil2100> I could
<slashd> thanks guys for joining this special mtg
<slashd> much appreciated
<rbasak> sil2100: please do. Thanks!
<sil2100> #startmeeting DMB meeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Mon Dec 12 19:03:15 2016 UTC.  The chair is sil2100. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | DMB meeting | Current topic:
<sil2100> Should we start off like any usual DMB meeting?
<sil2100> I suppose so
<sil2100> #topic Review of previous action items
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | DMB meeting | Current topic: Review of previous action items
<sil2100> Action: rbasak to get mapreri's PPU additions done by the TB <- what's the status of this one?
<rbasak> Let me check. One minute.
<rbasak> bug 1643648 - still outstanding.
<ubottu> bug 1643648 in ubuntu-community "[TB/DMB] PPU additions for ~mapreri" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1643648
<sil2100> Ok
<sil2100> Action: rbasak to address GunnarHj's im-config yakkety question on the ML <- I have problems with memory recently, is this done?
<rbasak> I made progress, just checking to see if it is done.
<rbasak> This is still todo. Sorry!
<rbasak> The TB have done their part, now I need to do mine.
<sil2100> ACK, let's leave it around for the next meeting then
<sil2100> Action: rbasak to address cpaelzer's dovecot-antispam ubuntu-server packageset request on the ML <- from what I see this is done I think, right?
<rbasak> Done.
<sil2100> Action: sil2100 to update the lubuntu packageset according to the current seed (carried over)  <- this is now also done for zesty, I might still back-port the same packageset changes to yakkety and xenial, but that's a different story I suppose
<sil2100> The original request is done I would say
<sil2100> #topic PPU Applications
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | DMB meeting | Current topic: PPU Applications
<sil2100> fossfreedom: hello!
<fossfreedom> hi!
<sil2100> fossfreedom: could you introduce yourself?
<fossfreedom> My name is David Mohammed - also known as fossfreedom - and I am the project lead of Ubuntu Budgie (formerly budgie-remix).
<sil2100> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/fossfreedom/UbuntuBudgieDevApplication <- link to the application in mention
<fossfreedom> Key responsibilities is the maintenance of our budgie packages -through the QA expected by the Ubuntu release team ...
<fossfreedom> and meeting the release cadence - our packages are a mixture of Debian (sync with Ubuntu) and Ubuntu specific packages.
<fossfreedom> Thanks in advance for considering my (our) application to be able to maintain our packages within Ubuntu.
<BenC> With the amount of time youâve been around the community, Iâm a bit surprised to not see any endorsements.
<sil2100> BenC: there are endorsements
<sil2100> BenC: look at the bottom of the page, they're below the template
<BenC> Ah, I see now.
<rbasak> fossfreedom: this packageset doesn't yet exist, correct?
<fossfreedom> correct
<BenC> Thanks
<rbasak> Do we know what packages would be in the set?
<fossfreedom> listed at the top of the application
<rbasak> Ah
<rbasak> Thanks
<fossfreedom> ooo - saw a mistake
<fossfreedom> the indicator applet has been accepted in debian
<fossfreedom> its no longer new
<rbasak> OK
<fossfreedom> and our ubuntu-budgie-meta has been sponsored
<rbasak> Which of these packages are Ubuntu-only?
<fossfreedom> just a sec
<rbasak> And are there any packages here that are derived from Debian and that you don't maintain in Debian?
<fossfreedom> budgie-desktop-environment, budgie-artwork, budgie-welcome, budgie-wallpapers, ubuntu-budgie-meta
<fossfreedom> All others listed are our packages that have been sponsored and accepted in debian
<rbasak> So to make sure I haven't misunderstood, the answer to my Debian maintenance question is "no"?
<fossfreedom> If I've understood the question - no derived debian packages - they are either in debian and sync'd or are ubuntu specific
<sil2100> fossfreedom: a standard question from me - are you aware of how proposed migration works in Ubuntu?
<fossfreedom> before the debian freeze date - yes sponsored, and auto sync'd I believe.
<rbasak> fossfreedom: no, I mean: apart from Ubuntu specific packages, is there any package in your requested list that you *do not* maintain in Debian?
<fossfreedom> no.
<rbasak> Right, that answers my question - thanks :)
<fossfreedom> sure.  sorry about that!
<rbasak> fossfreedom: for the packages in Debian, what sort of uploads do you expect will be necessary in Ubuntu?
<fossfreedom> Intend to maintain the debian specific packages via debian.  Only after the various freeze dates would I want to look at critical and stability fixes specific to ubuntu coming from upstream
<rbasak> OK. And if we do grant you upload access today, under what circumstances must you seek approval before uploading to Ubuntu?
<rbasak> OK. And if we do grant you upload access today, under what circumstances must you seek approval _anyway_ before uploading to Ubuntu?
<sil2100> fossfreedom: (please also note my question above ^ after answering rbasak)
<fossfreedom> not sure I understand - if I have doubts - will ask via ubuntu-motu
<rbasak> fossfreedom: under what release cycle freeze conditions must you seek approval before uploading, and from whom?
<fossfreedom> k - think you are referring to feature freeze?
<fossfreedom> release managers - but not sure who they are - will need to ask
<rbasak> There are other freezes too, but let's start with feature freeze.
<fossfreedom> sil2100 - are you referring to sending first to proposed.  testing, confirming before moving to universe?
<rbasak> What can you upload when only feature freeze is in effect, and what can you not upload during the same time?
<fossfreedom> basically my understanding is concentrate on bugs and stability issues.
<fossfreedom> dont introduce new features
<fossfreedom> especially dont break libraries - api's etc.
<sil2100> fossfreedom: let's say there's such a situation: you upload your package to ubuntu, the package goes to, let's say, zesty-proposed and stays there for over a week - what would you do? Is this a normal situation?
<fossfreedom> in that circumstance I would hop into ubuntu-motu and seek guidance.
<fossfreedom> no - before freeze that would be most unexpected I noticed
<fossfreedom> after freeze - depends on the issue at hand.
<rbasak> depends> can you be more specific?
<sil2100> fossfreedom: ok, I guess that's a good start - do you know http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-archive/proposed-migration/update_excuses.html and update_output.txt ?
<fossfreedom> lets say the problem at hand is complicated - involving more than one package - possibly concerning a package that we depend upon but is not ours.  Yes - in that example, I would expect things will take longer to check and double check
<sil2100> In case you didn't, it's a good thing to bookmark and to look at once you see your package being stuck in -proposed
 * cyphermox is around
<rbasak> cyphermox: o/
<sil2100> Anyway, any other questions to fossfreedom ?
<fossfreedom> noted . thanks for the link
<micahg> fossfreedom: why did you overwrite the changelog when you uploaded a new version? http://launchpadlibrarian.net/296645594/ubuntu-budgie-meta_0.0.1_0.1.diff.gz
<fossfreedom> that was a bit of confusion .  Apparently daniel uploaded but myself and mapreri didnt know - maprari also sponsored and uploaded over the top
<rbasak> I think I'm done with questions, thanks.
<cyphermox> we normally deal with this in two steps, first packageset creation, then joining the packageset.
<cyphermox> or just PPU
<rbasak> IMHO, we should vote on granting fossfreedom upload rights first, and then think about what to do wrt. packagesets/PPU. Because if we don't move to grant fossfreedom upload rights, then the packageset discussion is pointless.
 * BenC agrees
<rbasak> Presumably what we'd give fossfreedom upload rights to (whether via a packageset or PPU) is uncontroversial?
<sil2100> Agreed
<cyphermox> well, my vote would be based on what the packageset is, TBH
<micahg> yeah, usually packageset comes first
<micahg> but we can table the actions on creation if no one is granted rights
<rbasak> OK
<rbasak> Whatever sil2100 wants to do I guess, as he's chairing!
<sil2100> Since we already did review the applicant and a 'recommended' set of packages for the packageset has been proposed, I would say we should vote basing on the current knowledge
<cyphermox> what does that mean?
<sil2100> I mean that we should vote as if the packageset in mention had the packages as proposed in the application
<sil2100> And in case the packageset ends up different, we can then bring this up on the meeting
<micahg> is that list actually defined?
<micahg> ah, yeah, I see it now
<sil2100> budgie-desktop, budgie-desktop-environment, budgie-artwork, budgie-welcome, budgie-wallpapers, arc-theme, moka-icon-theme, faba-icon-theme, rhythmbox-plugin-alternative-toolbar, budgie-indicator-applet
<fossfreedom> + ubuntu-budgie-meta
<sil2100> cyphermox: would you be fine with this?
<cyphermox> just a second, almost done looking this over
<sil2100> I don't want to over-extend the meeting as we still have another applicant for today
<sil2100> Ok, thanks
<cyphermox> yeah ok to vote
<sil2100> #vote for David Mohammed to get upload rights for the budgie packageset
<meetingology> Please vote on: for David Mohammed to get upload rights for the budgie packageset
<meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (for private voting, private message me with 'vote +1/-1/+0 #channelname)
<rbasak> -1
<meetingology> -1 received from rbasak
<BenC> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from BenC
<micahg> +0, great start, great job getting packages into Debian, would like to see a little more experience with the packages
<meetingology> +0, great start, great job getting packages into Debian, would like to see a little more experience with the packages received from micahg
<cyphermox> we never defined what the packageset was yet though
<micahg> sil2100 listed the packages before the vote, but you are correct, that it's not official
<micahg> *officially listed in the vote
<cyphermox> +1 there is evidence of involvement, but I can't see much in terms of uploads (though some are obviosly maintained in Debian directly). On the basis that this is for a new flavor and that the risk is low (leaf packages specific to the flavor) I'm inclined to acquiesce.
<meetingology> +1 there is evidence of involvement, but I can't see much in terms of uploads (though some are obviosly maintained in Debian directly). On the basis that this is for a new flavor and that the risk is low (leaf packages specific to the flavor) I'm inclined to acquiesce. received from cyphermox
<cyphermox> I would strongly strongly suggest pinging people on IRC when you need sponsoring. I know I'm always happy to sponsor packages and give review, and later add testimonial to applications
<fossfreedom> k - sure - Jeremy has done the vast majority of uploads and sponsoring for the team
<cyphermox> who are the team?
<fossfreedom> I myself do the packaging - the link to the team is here https://budgie-remix.org/our-team/
<sil2100> +1 conditionally from me as this is a new flavor and things need to get going, assuming the packageset stays as mentioned above - but PLEASE always ask more experienced sponsors while in doubt
<meetingology> +1 conditionally from me as this is a new flavor and things need to get going, assuming the packageset stays as mentioned above - but PLEASE always ask more experienced sponsors while in doubt received from sil2100
<fossfreedom> fully agree with you sil2100
<sil2100> Ok, I guess that's everyone present
<sil2100> #endvote
<meetingology> Voting ended on: for David Mohammed to get upload rights for the budgie packageset
<meetingology> Votes for:3 Votes against:1 Abstentions:1
<meetingology> Motion carried
<rbasak> So I think that's not quorate?
<sil2100> Yeah, I think it isn't
<micahg> right
<sil2100> So we'll have to move it to the mailing list
<rbasak> fossfreedom: I wrote up my reasons for my -1 ready to paste. I'll do that now.
<rbasak> This was not an easy decision, as you can probably tell from the votes! I
<rbasak> really appreciate your contributions to Ubuntu, and in maintaining Ubuntu
<rbasak> Budgie for us. Personally, I'd be +1 in granting you Ubuntu Contributing
<rbasak> Developer status, though that would require a further formal DMB vote.
<rbasak> However, I reget that I'm not satisfied with your understanding of the Ubuntu release process. I think this is important, particularly for a flavour lead.
<rbasak> For example, the key differentiation for uploading during feature freeze is the simple criteron of whether the upload incorporates just bugfixes or feature changes, but you seemed to be unable to state this.
<cyphermox> it's most definitely not a motion carried outcome; as per https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DeveloperMembershipBoard/KnowledgeBase
<rbasak> I am satisfied with the other aspects of your application.
<sil2100> fossfreedom: so for now your application is still being processed
<sil2100> fossfreedom: since you didn't get the required number of votes we'll contintue this through the ML to get the remaining DMB memebers votes
<fossfreedom> thanks - will continue normally motu sponsoring.  We have a number of updates to make.  thanks all for your time.
<rbasak> fossfreedom: I'm sorry we couldn't decide in this meeting. We do all appreciate your contributions and hope you will continue regardless of the outcome here. Despite our individual opinions I'm sure we all want to get you to the stage that we're unamimously happy to grant you upload access.
<sil2100> Let me put an action item for this
<sil2100> #action sil2100 to handle fossfreedom's application further through e-mail
<meetingology> ACTION: sil2100 to handle fossfreedom's application further through e-mail
<sil2100> Ok, let's move on!
<rbasak> Does everyone have time to consider slashd's application? I do, but I appreciate we're 70 minutes in.
<sil2100> BenC, cyphermox, slashd, micahg - you all have time for another application still?
<cyphermox> yep
<BenC> Yeah
<micahg> I have a call in 20 min, but we can try
<sil2100> #topic MOTU Applications
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | DMB meeting | Current topic: MOTU Applications
<sil2100> slashd: hello! You still around? Could you please introduce yourself?
<slashd> I'm a Software Engineer in the Support Sustaining Engineering Group within Canonical helping in driving Canonical customer and community bugs into resolution by troubleshooting, fixing bugs, providing guidance & workarounds, for different areas of expertise which may cover areas such as: kernel/usermode, drivers, virtualization, network, cloud, storage, ... [https://wiki.ubuntu.com/slashd/MOTU] [https://launchpad.net/~slas
<slashd> hd] Since I first started contributing I think I've always been acting as a good team player, doing updates of high quality with as much details as I could provide, never been afraid to ask questions when in doubt and that I have the detective skills that this role requires.
<sil2100> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/slashd/MOTU <- application
<sil2100> slashd: first question: I noticed that m_deslaur mentioned required improvement in better formatted changelogs - could you elaborate what he could have had in mind?
<slashd> sil2100, I think he was refering to the fact, my first changelog were not as descriptive as he wanted
<slashd> sil2100, I think I fix that
<slashd> I really pay attention to experience ppl feedbacks, to always improve myself
<rbasak> slashd: are you expecting to do many uploads to universe?
<rbasak> slashd: and what have you uploaded that is or was in universe?
<slashd> rbasak, as you can see I'm not dedicated to a specific package or pkgset mostly due to the nature of my work at Canonical where I have to fix whaterver is broken (main, universe, ...) so I expect to do upload of course when a problem arise and also sponsor other ppl debdiff to help the community, ....
<sil2100> slashd: what would be the primary reason for you to apply for MOTU?
<slashd> rbasak, libpam-sshauth AFAI remember
<slashd> sil2100, I want to involve myself more in Ubuntu development, helping fixing issue, help other in sponsoring debdiff, ...
<cyphermox> slashd: the point of rbasak's question is that we give upload rights after proof of involvement, rather than "because I would like to X"
<slashd> cyphermox, right, I agree that most of my work has been done for main pkg
<sil2100> Any other questions?
<rbasak> FTR, I have worked with slashd on SRUs.
<slashd> rbasak, cyphermox, I simply think that being MOTU is a good step toward gaining upload experiences ..... and eventually will earn some strip to help even more in other areas
<rbasak> AIUI, that's the main outcome of his work at Canonical, since from my perspective at least he mainly seems to handle requests that come from Canonical customers, and they generally and understandably tend to be about stable releases.
<cyphermox> yep
<rbasak> From that perspective, I'd like to see slashd being able to upload SRUs directly.
<cyphermox> well, he still won't, for the most part
<micahg> slashd: well, as cyphermox mentioned, we usually want the experience before the upload rights
<rbasak> I'm not sure if MOTU is the right path for that, unless slashd is actually making significant contributions to universe, or is being blocked from doing so. I don't think he is.
<rbasak> It's a new thing I think that Canonical STS employees are contributing to Ubuntu in this way.
<rbasak> I can only recall caribou as the other person doing this.
<rbasak> So perhaps this is something the DMB needs to tackle.
<cyphermox> and to illustrate my point, " being MOTU is a good step toward gaining upload experiences" is precisely what we don't want, and rather give MOTU based on having seen enough evidence that someone knows what they're doing enough to not break universe
<slashd> rbasak for now there is only caribou yes
<rbasak> I don't think it's appropriate to force Canonical STS employees contribution to Ubuntu SRUs in main to have to make unrelated contributions to MOTU first as a path to getting upload access to the stuff they're actually helping with.
<rbasak> Nor do I think it's appropriate to grant MOTU to people not actually contributing to universe.
<sil2100> Ok, should we maybe start the vote? Or are there any questions to slashd before we continue?
<rbasak> So, I'm -1 on giving slashd MOTU, but I think it's an action item for the DMB to work out how to fix this so that there's a direct way for slashd and his colleagues to get upload access to do SRUs in main.
<micahg> rbasak: SRUs go into a queue anyways, it doesn't help so much to have "upload rights" for SRUs unless there were a high volume, and I don't think we're seeing that
<cyphermox> there isn't really a way to do that aside from being able to upload in main though
<slashd> rbasak, I know another sts memeber is about to apply for coredev in Jan so this point I think would be nice to be addressed
<micahg> right, but that could be set per-series if need be
<cyphermox> ie. SRUs are just an upload, the difference of being stuck in the unapproved queue is just because of the state of the release
<cyphermox> well, i suppose it could be, but that wouldn't be up to the DMB to statute on.
<rbasak> Yeah, we could tell Launchpad to allow some new ~ubuntu-sru-uploaders team access to upload to stables but not development.
<rbasak> I believe it would be within the DMB's remit to set this up if we decided it is appropriate.
<cyphermox> I don't think deciding whether it's appropriate is DMB-level
<sil2100> Do we want an action item for this?
<rbasak> And then slashd and his colleagues would have a clear path forward, whether or not you think slashd himself has enough of a track record right now.
<sil2100> e.g. for us to remember this for the next meetings?
<rbasak> I'll happily take an action to take it to the list.
<rbasak> cyphermox: so we disagree, which is fine. How about: after I take this to the ML, you ask the TB to decide whether it is within our remit?
<cyphermox> sure. whatever :)
<sil2100> #action rbasak to start a discussion on the ML regarding the possibility of setting up a specialized team with access to upload packages to stable releases only
<meetingology> ACTION: rbasak to start a discussion on the ML regarding the possibility of setting up a specialized team with access to upload packages to stable releases only
<sil2100> Phew, hope this more or less outlines it
<sil2100> Anyway, let's head for the vote
<rbasak> slashd: would you like us to proceed to vote on MOTU, or would you like to withdraw that pending the outcome of my action?
<cyphermox> my point is it's a rather large exception and we don't create the packageset ourselves
<micahg> I see an average of 3 uploads a month here, I'm not sure the volume warrants special consideration
<rbasak> micahg: understood. We can discuss that on the ML. I'm just concerned that we're stifling progress by not having this path, even if it is discussed and leads to "no action without more volume".
<slashd> rbasak, let's see the outcome of you action I think, can you put me on CC on this ?
<rbasak> slashd: I really don't mind whether you want the vote or not. Up to you.
<rbasak> CC> sure.
<rbasak> OK. So are we done with slashd's application for now then?
<slashd> brookswarner, chiluk, interesting discussion here for us ^^
<sil2100> Ok, so if I understand that: no vote today on this?
<rbasak> That's my understanding, yes.
<slashd> thanks for your time guys, I think we can go ahead with rbasak action item, and then depending on the result will see what is next
<sil2100> Ok then
<sil2100> #topic Any other business
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | DMB meeting | Current topic: Any other business
<sil2100> I suppose none here as we're far over our schedule
<sil2100> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Mon Dec 12 20:34:28 2016 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2016/ubuntu-meeting.2016-12-12-19.03.moin.txt
<sil2100> Phew, thanks everyone! Sorry for this meeting being a bit rough
<rbasak> sil2100: thank you for chairing!
<fossfreedom> sigh - thanks for your time sil2100 - much appreciated.
<rbasak> And thank you to fossfreedom and slashd for your patience.
<fossfreedom> cheers rbasak.
<slashd> rbasak, tks for making this mtg happen and for taking ownership on this action
<fossfreedom> Can I ask a question please rbasak?
<sil2100> I'll send out the e-mail with the votes for fossfreedom later today
<sil2100> Should I send it to devel-permissions@ as well, or just to fossfreedom + DMB members?
<sil2100> I suppose this should be public, right?
<rbasak> fossfreedom: sure. If it's a general Ubuntu development/process question it should probably be in #ubuntu-devel.
<rbasak> (or #ubuntu-motu, etc)
<rbasak> sil2100: yes, public. The meeting was already public, as is fossfreedom's application :)
<rbasak> sil2100: so devel-permissions@ I think.
<fossfreedom> question of process for DMB
<rbasak> fossfreedom: sure, go ahead.
<fossfreedom> So the result effectively puts Ubuntu Budgie progress on hold whilst the mailing list member consider?
<fossfreedom> members
<rbasak> fossfreedom: no, not at all. You should still be able to get any sponsored uploads you need.
<rbasak> fossfreedom: if finding a sponsor becomes a problem for you, please email the ubuntu-devel@ list asking for sponsorship.
<fossfreedom> k - I have made a pull request against lp:ubuntu-cdimage - just wondering if this stops this because there is no formal packageset
<rbasak> fossfreedom: effectively, all sponsorship means is "code review required from an approved reviewer".
<rbasak> fossfreedom: not having direct access to upload should never stop any kind of progress apart from the delay/inconvenience in finding someone who can.
<rbasak> fossfreedom: all Ubuntu core devs can do everything the DMB can grant.
<fossfreedom> ah - so just need to be patient then whoever processes lp:ubuntu-cdimage issues and requests?
<rbasak> fossfreedom: some chasing may be required. If so, please ask on IRC in #ubuntu-devel or on the ubuntu-devel@ list.
<rbasak> fossfreedom: especially if the request is not in the sponsorship queue at http://reqorts.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/sponsoring/index.html
<fossfreedom> ok - thanks for the hint.  I'll add the ubuntu-sponsor tag for the bug-report.  Also will seek guidance in ubuntu-devel
<rbasak> fossfreedom: if you want to continue this discussion, let's move to #ubuntu-devel. This isn't particular DMB-specific - anyone can answer.
<rbasak> And lurkers may decide to review and sponsor your merge proposal too :)
<fossfreedom> will do!
<fossfreedom> cheers
<chiluk> sil2100, rbasak, cyphermox, sorry to re-open this, as I'll be applying for coredev come january. One observation I'd like to make though is that process has always been to fix development releases prior to fixing released series. as such members of the STS team wouldn't gain much by being part of a new ~ubuntu-sru-uploaders team, as we'd still have to wait on uploading to devel.
<chiluk> the only time it would help is when the fix is already in one of the newer serie's..
<rbasak> chiluk: good point.
<chiluk> rbasak: did this discussion move somewhere else?
<rbasak> No, it ended here. I have an action to take it to the ML.
<chiluk> rbasak, and if it wasn't completely clear, our team has no desire to circumvent the SRU process, and think that it's healthy to require at least one additional review *(from ubuntu-sru team), after uploading.
<rbasak> chiluk: I didn't think any different :)
<chiluk> ok "ubuntu-sru-uploaders" is slightly ambiguous naming.
<chiluk> rbasak^^
<rbasak> chiluk: what I was suggesting is that if there's a thing the DMB can grant such that you can upload SRUs, then that would get through the sponsorship requirement but not ~ubuntu-sru.
<chiluk> yeah that would be helpful.
<chiluk> we'll abide by what the dmb, and Technical Review board deems proper.
#ubuntu-meeting 2016-12-13
<smoser> o/
<jgrimm> o/
<cpaelzer> o/
<powersj> o/
<rbasak> o/
<caribou> o/
<smoser> #startmeeting ubuntu-server-team
<meetingology> Meeting started Tue Dec 13 16:01:43 2016 UTC.  The chair is smoser. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic:
<smoser> #topic Review ACTION points from previous meeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Review ACTION points from previous meeting
<smoser> there appear to be no action points from last meeting per https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/Meeting
<jgrimm> \o/
<smoser> so... DONE!
<smoser> #topic Zesty Development
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Zesty Development
<smoser> #link https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ZestyZapus/ReleaseSchedule
<jgrimm> #link https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/servercloud-z-server-core
<nacc> (late) o/
<smoser> hm... we should add that link to https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/servercloud-z-server-core
<smoser> bah
<smoser> to
<smoser> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/Meeting/IRCCommands
 * smoser does this. 
<jgrimm> merges are proceeding nicely, with folks picking up new merge work
<jgrimm> smoser, +1 thanks
<smoser> jgrimm, was there something you wanted to say there ?
<smoser> we have lots of stuff in  progrwss it looks like, which is good.
<jgrimm> smoser, just wanted to point out the progress
<smoser> alright. then http://reqorts.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/rls-mgr/rls-z-tracking-bug-tasks.html#ubuntu-server
<jgrimm> which indeed is very good, compared to where we often are at this stage of the cycle
<smoser> The top one on that list is mine, and is now fixed in zesty.
<smoser> anyone want to comment on others ?
 * smoser will go ahead and fix the second one there too today
<jgrimm> smoser, thanks.  nothing else particularly interesting there
<nacc> python-django is inprogress, fixed
<smoser> #topic Server & Cloud Bugs & SRU/Pending Uploads (caribou)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Server & Cloud Bugs & SRU/Pending Uploads (caribou)
<caribou> Outstanding SRUs :
<caribou> LP: #1447715 - dhclient -6: Can't bind to dhcp address: Cannot assign requested address
<caribou>   - Series to SRU : xenial
<caribou>   - Owners : Dan Streetman
<caribou> LP: #1452202 - ubuntu preseed install fails to set a hostname
<caribou>   - Series to SRU : xenial
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1447715 in ifupdown (Ubuntu Xenial) "dhclient -6: Can't bind to dhcp address: Cannot assign requested address" [Medium,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1447715
<caribou>   - Owners : Eric Desrochers
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1452202 in netcfg (Debian) "ubuntu preseed install fails to set a hostname" [Unknown,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1452202
<caribou> LP: #1579609 - os-prober bug resulting in possible FS corruption
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1579609 in os-prober (Ubuntu Xenial) "os-prober bug resulting in possible FS corruption" [Critical,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1579609
<caribou>   - Series to SRU : xenial
<caribou>   - Owners : Eric Desrochers
<caribou> LP: #1621340 - [SRU]'multipath -r' causes /dev/mapper/<wwid> being removed
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1621340 in multipath-tools (Ubuntu Xenial) "[SRU]'multipath -r' causes /dev/mapper/<wwid> being removed" [Medium,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1621340
<caribou>   - Series to SRU : xenial
<caribou>   - Owners : Hua Zhang
<caribou> LP: #1634304 - Unable to complete install: 'Couldn't find hvm kernel for Ubuntu tree
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1634304 in virt-manager (Ubuntu Yakkety) "Unable to complete install: 'Couldn't find hvm kernel for Ubuntu tree" [Undecided,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1634304
<caribou>   - Series to SRU : xenial yakkety
<caribou>   - Owners : Tyler Hicks
<caribou> LP: #1640275 - move nvme driver to linux-image
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1640275 in linux (Ubuntu Trusty) "move nvme driver to linux-image" [Undecided,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1640275
<caribou>   - Series to SRU : trusty
<caribou>   - Owners : Dan Streetman
<caribou> LP: #1640382 - Segfault event notifier because of race condition
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1640382 in qemu (Ubuntu Trusty) "Segfault event notifier because of race condition" [Medium,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1640382
<caribou>   - Series to SRU : trusty
<caribou>   - Owners : Seyeong Kim
<caribou> LP: #1640676 - [SRU] libvirt 1.2.12 live-migration corrupts some instances
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1640676 in libvirt (Ubuntu Trusty) "[SRU] libvirt 1.2.12 live-migration corrupts some instances" [High,Incomplete] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1640676
<caribou>   - Series to SRU : trusty
<caribou>   - Owners : Unowned
<caribou> LP: #1642903 - introduce disk/by-id (model_serial) symlinks for NVMe drives
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1642903 in systemd (Ubuntu Trusty) "introduce disk/by-id (model_serial) symlinks for NVMe drives" [Undecided,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1642903
<caribou>   - Series to SRU : xenial trusty yakkety
<caribou>   - Owners : Unowned
<caribou> Some of them are awaiting verification
<caribou> other than that, thanks to smoser for helping out with the CloudSigma issue
<smoser> caribou, that is now fixed in zesty
<cpaelzer> I can confirm that libvirt and qemu ones are in verification step by the STS drivers, thanks to all of them
<caribou> smoser: yes, I saw that. Need the SRU to X & a respin of the image
<smoser> and we can/should sru it to xenial/yakkety. my plan is at the moment to wait on the other upload that is currently in the proposed queue.
<smoser> anything else ?
<powersj> I cleaned out htop, iotop, and nicstat defects as a part of the MIR process. Have small list to consider for Trusty, but odds are the work required to SRU is too great.
<caribou> no
<caribou> (nothing else)
<smoser> #topic Weekly Updates & Questions for the QA Team (powersj)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Weekly Updates & Questions for the QA Team (powersj)
<powersj> Jenkins is now running daily builds and unittests of tot/master for simplestreams, cloud-init, and curtin. cloud-init integration tests are now run against proposed when a package exists for xenial and yakkety. The integration tests have been proposed as a merge, still pending.
<powersj> Updated baremeal slaves to have lxd use zfs as a backend and updated pylxd to version 2.1.3. Run times for integration tests dropped from 50 min to 12 min. Continued struggles with getting the power8 system up and running; currently waiting on a firewall change.
<powersj> Working to get Xenial based VM slaves to replace  our Trusty VMs. Taking the time to also automate the deployment of dependencies as well and try to use distro python packages over pip whenever possible during the transition.
<powersj> questions? comments?
<cpaelzer> here
<smoser> powersj, nice work there.
<jgrimm> dropped from 50 min to 12 min
<cpaelzer> FYI I added a tight redo live migration loop to the migration tests
<jgrimm> powersj, nice^^
<powersj> thx
<cpaelzer> so far they all work fine
<cpaelzer> IBM retracted their bug report that caused me to add those, but I thought we might as well keep them
 * smoser tried pylxd in a virtual env and realized it has C python dependencies :-(
<cpaelzer> now does on top all we did 10 fast migrations back+forth with load and without load so eventually 10*2*2=40
<powersj> cpaelzer: thanks for heads up
<powersj>  /whois powersj
<powersj> woops
<nacc> heh
<smoser> #link https://jenkins.ubuntu.com/server/
<jgrimm> heh
<smoser> #topic Weekly Updates & Questions for the Kernel Team (smb, sforshee)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Weekly Updates & Questions for the Kernel Team (smb, sforshee)
<smoser> is smb around ?
<cpaelzer> he was today at least
<cpaelzer> he is not in here
<cpaelzer> smoser: go on we can highlight him internally and if he can join he can comment later
<smoser> yeah
<jgrimm> smb, anything to report for kernel team?
<smoser> #topic Upcoming Call For Papers
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Upcoming Call For Papers
<smoser> #link https://lwn.net/Calendar/Monthly/cfp/
<cpaelzer> fyi smb is about to appear
<smb> jgrimm, No nothing specific (and sorry for tunring up late)
<smoser> one related kernel thing
<smoser> that might have been brought up before
<smoser> there are now
<smoser>  https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux-hwe-edge/4.8.0-30.32~16.04.1
<smoser> hwe-edge kernels available on xenial
<smoser> i think that is recently new. probalby better link at https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux-hwe-edge/
<smoser> so items on the lwn.net link there are FOSS Asia on the 20th and DjangoCon EU and PGConf India on December 312
<smoser> December 31
<smoser> moving on
<smoser> #topic Ubuntu Server Team Events
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Ubuntu Server Team Events
<smoser> anything here ?
<smoser> ok.
<smoser> #topic Open Discussion
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Open Discussion
<smoser> anyone have anythin here ?
<cpaelzer> I relaized I forgot in caribous section before
<jgrimm> smoser, to add to your topic of hwe-edge...
<cpaelzer> Of my assigned bugs over the last 11 days finally closing 1633207, 1546674, 1640805, 1641618, 1638329
<jgrimm> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Kernel/RollingLTSEnablementStack
<cpaelzer> IIRC 3 of them had SRU impact eventually 1633207 (Y), 1546674 (X), 1640805 (T)
<jgrimm> #link https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Kernel/RollingLTSEnablementStack
<jgrimm> smoser, ^^ describes rolling HWE and the new edge package
<smoser> thank you jgrimm
<jgrimm> np, that's it for me
<smoser> alright.
<smoser> #topic Announce next meeting date, time and chair
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Announce next meeting date, time and chair
<smoser> we'll see you next time at
<smoser> Tue, 20 Dec 2016 16:00:00 +0000
<smoser> with rbasak on chair
<smoser> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Tue Dec 13 16:26:26 2016 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2016/ubuntu-meeting.2016-12-13-16.01.moin.txt
<cpaelzer> thanks smoser
<caribou> thanks!
<powersj> thanks!
<rbasak> Thanks!
#ubuntu-meeting 2016-12-15
<sil2100> o/
<caribou> \o
<chiluk> o/
<barry> \o
<sil2100> Are these meetings still a thing?
<chiluk> yeah.
<sil2100> If yes then I am not prepared
<chiluk> foundations has been sprinting a bit.
<bdmurray> for today at least
<ogra_> looks more like it is the foundations yoga class
<ogra_> :P
<doko> the mice are dancing alone ...
 * slangasek waves
<robru> ~o~
<xnox> o/
<xnox> the last foundations meetings ever.... for 2016
<chiluk> seriously? there are two weeks left in 2016.
<xnox> unless people are around next week?
<xnox> chiluk, well i have enough holiday to stop working. But i am carrying some over.
<infinity> Some are, some aren't.
<sil2100> I'm still around
<robru> I'll sleep when I'm dead
<slangasek> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Thu Dec 15 16:05:49 2016 UTC.  The chair is slangasek. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
<slangasek> [TOPIC] Lightning round
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Lightning round
<slangasek> $ echo $(shuf -e barry doko bdmurray slangasek caribou infinity sil2100 robru cyphermox tdaitx xnox chiluk mwhudson)
<slangasek> chiluk barry bdmurray robru caribou infinity mwhudson cyphermox tdaitx slangasek doko sil2100 xnox
<slangasek> chiluk can lead us off
<chiluk> winner.. and unprepared.
<sil2100> Phew, still time to prepare
<xnox> gaughen, mumble? =)
<chiluk> lp 1634304 - Unable to complete install: 'Couldn't find hvm kernel for Ubuntu tree.
<chiluk>  need to check status of SRU
<chiluk> lp 1639202 - Cannot enlist/commission machines in MAAS 2.1 with usb network adapter.  Turns out dell machines have this awesome mac passthru feature such that the usb device will get the mac of the built-in nic. - closed
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1634304 in virt-manager (Ubuntu Yakkety) "Unable to complete install: 'Couldn't find hvm kernel for Ubuntu tree" [Undecided,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1634304
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1639202 in linux (Ubuntu) "Cannot enlist/commission machines in MAAS 2.1 with usb network adapter" [Undecided,Invalid] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1639202
<chiluk> I probably have a few more things, but I drew the short straw.. so ---done-- for now
<chiluk> --done--
<barry> ubuntu-image: review sil2100 branches; LP: #1640523; LP: #1637554; LP: #1649798; LP: #1641727 (begin planning)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1640523 in snapd (Ubuntu) "Parse integer-like YAML values as strings" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1640523
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1637554 in Ubuntu Image ""Invalid cross-device link" and failed to preserve ownership error on image-output... " [Medium,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1637554
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1649798 in Ubuntu Image "snap version of ubuntu-image fails in error" [Undecided,Incomplete] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1649798
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1641727 in Ubuntu Image "Support multiple volumes per gadget.yaml" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1641727
<barry> debuntu: xonsh 0.4.7+dfsg-2 review/sponsor; debian bug #844650 & LP: #1631156; debian bug #824659; debian bug #814379; debian bug #840673; debian bug #830281
<ubottu> Debian bug 844650 in wnpp "ITP: flufl.testing -- a small collection of Python test helpers" [Wishlist,Fixed] http://bugs.debian.org/844650
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1631156 in Ubuntu Image "flake8.extension entry point has global ramifications" [High,Won't fix] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1631156
<ubottu> Debian bug 824659 in wnpp "ITP: python-public -- @public decorator for adding names to __all__" [Wishlist,Fixed] http://bugs.debian.org/824659
<slangasek> chiluk: you had a whole extra week to prepare! :)
<ubottu> Debian bug 814379 in twine "twine: Missing dependency on python3-setuptools." [Serious,Fixed] http://bugs.debian.org/814379
<ubottu> Debian bug 840673 in python-pkg-resources "pkg_resources: âload_entry_pointâ crashes without Setuptools" [Normal,Open] http://bugs.debian.org/840673
<barry> other: python issue #28937 (str.split() behavior)
<barry> --done--
<chiluk> slangasek... I chose to not live in the past.
<ogra_> barry, sil2100 ... i noticed you made the root partition configurable ?
<bdmurray> added test case to gdb bug LP: #1645501
<bdmurray> uploaded X fix, wrote test case for LP: #1640645
<bdmurray> submitted archive tools mp regarding rejection bug comments, queue casing
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1645501 in gdb (Ubuntu Yakkety) "corefiles not created in armhf chroot on arm64 porter" [Medium,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1645501
<ogra_> barry, sil2100, if you do that, please make sure it does not break resizing
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1640645 in ubuntu-release-upgrader (Ubuntu Xenial) "free space check doesn't take into account kernel upgrades" [High,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1640645
<sil2100> ogra_: there's a pull request for that, yes
<bdmurray> used bileto to test sponsoring a uvtool fix
<bdmurray> submitted bileto bug LP: #1649629 regarding link to diff
<bdmurray> sync'ed unattended-upgrades from debian after checking our diff
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1649629 in Bileto "provide link to diff in PPA description" [Medium,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1649629
<sil2100> ogra_: as per the gadget.yaml spec
<bdmurray> duplicate consolidation of apport bug LP: #1502173 duplicates
<bdmurray> investigation into LP: #1606767
<bdmurray> fixed apport bug LP: #1647635, updated retracer bzr branch
<bdmurray> SRU verification of LP: #1640645
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1502173 in apport (Ubuntu Xenial) "Python warnings: modules imported without specifying a version first" [Low,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1502173
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1606767 in systemd (Ubuntu) "package systemd 229-4ubuntu7 failed to install/upgrade: subprocess installed pre-removal script returned error exit status 2" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1606767
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1647635 in apport (Ubuntu) "apport-retrace doesn't comment on bugs when add_gdb_info raises an IOError" [Low,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1647635
<bdmurray> â done
<robru> lp:bileto
<robru> * discourage (but not entirely eliminate just yet) vivid
<robru> * include diffs in PPA description (for bdmurray)
<robru> * stop hard-coding overlay PPA for secondary ticket series, allowing multi-series SRU tickets (for xnox)
<robru> * use new ubuntu orange color (they changed it in april but I only just noticed)
<robru> lp:britney
<robru> * investigate why sourceppa grouping doesn't work, blocked by bug 1648000
<robru> (dune)
<ubottu> bug 1648000 in Launchpad itself "need API to discover where a given package is copied from" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1648000
<ogra_> sil2100, right, i just want to make sure we dont regress wrt resizing ... or cause bad stuff
<infinity> caribou: ?
<caribou> Bugfix :
<caribou>   qemu vm soft lockups
<caribou>   tftp does not start
<caribou>   isc-dhcp-client random port binding
<caribou> Dev:
<caribou> LP: #1641235 : kdump-tools hardcoded NFS options
<ubottu> Error: Could not gather data from Launchpad for bug #1641235 (https://launchpad.net/bugs/1641235). The error has been logged
<caribou> and being annoyed by LP: #1647178 on my laptop
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1647178 in systemd (Ubuntu) "systemd-resolved unable to resolve certain subdomains" [Undecided,Incomplete] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1647178
<caribou> (done)
<infinity>  * worked on ubuntu-image/cdimage integration, in progress
<infinity>  * linux-aws/xenial and linux/zesty reviews, ongoing
<infinity>  * lots of SRU, AA, and release team massaging of queues, excuses, etc
<infinity>  * still nursing an ubuflu, so only about half here, mentally
<infinity> (done)
<caribou> oh, & working on merges for nut & clamav
<caribou> (awaiting MIR on tomsfastmath to drop last delta)
<slangasek> robru: why can xnox create separate tickets for separate SRU target series?
<gaughen> xnox, I'm on another call.... and I don't have a mtg on my calendar.
<slangasek> (IOW: dual landings are a bad idea and never worked right, so why are we enabling more people to do dual landings?)
<slangasek> cyphermox:
<sil2100> Matt not here?
<slangasek> seems not
<slangasek> and tdaitx also isn't
<xnox> slangasek, because we do upload SRUs simultaniously for multiple series, for dput packages, forget branches.
<slangasek> so over to that slangasek guy
<slangasek>  * sprinting
<slangasek>   * and off this past Monday for a swap day, so short week
<slangasek>  * SRU processing
<slangasek>  * a lot of kernel SRU processing
<slangasek>   * and a bit of scripting to automate the kernel SRU processing
<slangasek>  * POWER-related discussions
<slangasek>  * upcoming:
<slangasek>   * more kernel SRU processing
<slangasek>   * off next Monday
<sil2100> Oh noes
<slangasek>   * working Tuesday, Wednesday from CST
<slangasek>   * off Thursday through EOY
<slangasek> (done)
<doko> - adjusting mail filters to new cpc spam
<doko> - finished test rebuilds
<doko> - evaluated compressed debug sections rebuild
<doko> - evaluated GCC 7 rebuild (all ICEs reduced and reported upstream)
<doko> - preparing GCC 6.3 release
<doko> - openjdk-9 update
<doko> - python 2.7.13 release candidate
<slangasek> xnox: ok, that's one source of damage from dual landings that dual-landing SRUs avoid, I suppose
<doko> - a few merges
<sil2100> slangasek: ping me once some new kernel SRU helper-work is needed
<doko> (done)
<sil2100> - Landing team work, silo coordination
<sil2100> - DMB work:
<sil2100>   * Extra meeting on Monday, some heated discussions
<sil2100>   * Reviewing ubuntu-budgie ubuntu-cdimage MR
<sil2100>   * Discussing how to proceed with the budgie seed ownership team
<sil2100>   * Looking into refreshing happyaron's packageset
<sil2100> - Re-spinning new ubuntu-personal and kiosk images for amd64 and dragonboard
<sil2100> - Further help with kernel SRU's reviews (with slangasek)
<sil2100> - Poking around for getting the dbus SRU's reviewed in the UNAPPROVED queue
<sil2100> - ubuntu-image:
<slangasek> sil2100: are you around next Tue/Wed?
<sil2100>   * Merging trunk to the role-usage branch
<sil2100>   * Figuring out why tests suddenly failed, fixing the one-liner bug
<sil2100>   * Preparing a branch for fixing running tests on non-en locale
<barry> doko: you did test rebuild w/2.7.13 candidate?
<sil2100> - Enabling cooler_arm64 for the M10 in xenial (for unity8-session testing)
<sil2100> - Help with some silo problems and help requests
<slangasek> sil2100: the next phase is promoting them
<sil2100> (done)
<sil2100> slangasek: I'm *always* around
<slangasek> heh
<robru> slangasek: because the way xnox does dual SRUs is doing manual uploads so has none of the drawbacks of building multiple targets from MPs.
<sil2100> But seriously speaking, yes, I should be here
<doko> barry, think about it ... when was the test rebuild started?
<xnox> * Loads of merges
<xnox> * Bug triange with frank at the CDO sprint
<xnox> * SRUs following above triange
<xnox> * zfcpdump kernel testing -> sru published now
<xnox> * Porting and preparation for upstart removal
<xnox> * All sessions, but unity8 desktop/touch, switched from upstart
<xnox> * Swapfiles by defaulting landed in both d-i and ubiquity, for non-lvm / non-encrypted installations
<xnox> * Blogpost to celebrate swapfiles is pending
<xnox> ..
<barry> doko: you tell me, that's why i'm asking :)
<infinity> xnox: Why non-encrypted?
<slangasek> barry: are you asking about test rebuild for zesty?
<doko> barry: test rebuild started on 2016-12-02 (you see that when you look at your build failures, hint, hint), 2.7.13rc1 was only last week
<infinity> xnox: You'd think swapfiles for encrypted setups would be a no-brainer (don't need encrypted swap partitions when you can have an unexncrypted swapfile on an encrypted partition)
<doko> ahh, no, no trusty test rebuilds yet
<barry> doko: cool
<xnox> infinity, because we have lvm layer for the full-disk encryption recipy, and I still put swap on an LVM volume there. Because otherwise, it is impossible to take lvm snapshots of the root filesystem (they fill up with swapfile changes very quickly and drop off as full)
<infinity> xnox: Ahh, kay.  Yeah, the snapshotting thing is icky.
<xnox> auto-luks is: cryptsetup - lvm - ext4
<infinity> xnox: I retract my comment. :)
<xnox> infinity, indeed. I was hoping it would do a sensible thing - 'this is a swapfile, i shall not snapshot these bits'
<slangasek> barry, doko: but the rebuilds for trusty should be against 2.7.12, the version we already support in xenial + yakkety
<xnox> but no, no, no.
<doko> slangasek: did somebody say something else?
<barry> slangasek: right, that's what we agreed on in seville
<slangasek> doko: no, but barry's question made me wonder if there was ambiguity so I'm restating just in case :)
<barry> yep, sorry to sow confusion
<slangasek> alrighty, any other questions on status?
<slangasek> doko: wrt python 2.7.12 and trusty, is that still something you think you'll kick off the tests of before EOY?
<doko> yes, trying
<slangasek> ok
<barry> thx
<slangasek> [TOPIC] AOB
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: AOB
<slangasek> anything else to discuss?
<slangasek> there was a question of meetings for next week
<slangasek> I won't be around
<bdmurray> I have a question
<barry> me neither
<slangasek> are there people who both a) are around next Thursday and b) want a meeting?
<doko> no
<xnox> no
<bdmurray> Now that Martin's gone can / should we turn on apport crash reporting to Launchpad earlier than Alpha 1 or whatever he did?
<slangasek> (aren't you all supposed to give the logician joke answer to that question and say "I don't know"?)
<doko> what?
<infinity> slangasek: I think we know each other well enough to know the answer is "no".
<slangasek> doko: three logicians walk into a bar and the bartender asks, "does everybody want a beer?" the first logician answers "I don't know" the second logician answers "I don't know" the third logician answers "yes"
<infinity> slangasek: Even if many answer yes to (a), I suspect none would answer yes to (b). :P
<slangasek> bdmurray: I don't recall a reason why we were leaving it turned off until partway into the cycle.  I guess that's a policy that predates proposed-migration?
<bdmurray> slangasek: Yes, its just always been that way and I think its worth changing.
<slangasek> bdmurray: ok.  IMHO it's better to turn it on earlier
<infinity> Yeah, it was historically to avoid a flood of bugs from broken autosyncs.
<infinity> But p-m should shield us from most of that these days.
<xnox> ...
<bdmurray> Cool, I'll turn it on shortly then.
<infinity> xnox: If you disagree with that statement, it's only because you were too young to read or type back when we did it the old way. ;)
<bdmurray> lol
<xnox> is pending-sru page still useful? i see many people starring at proposed-migration for stable releases and are wondering as to why things are not migrating. Should stable proposed-migration learn about "verification-needed" tags? 7 day phasing?
<xnox> infinity, excuse me, i've been using ubuntu since Festy Fawn! =)
<xnox> infinity, excuse me, i've been using ubuntu since Feisty Fawn! =)
<infinity> xnox: Yes we use pending-sru.
<infinity> And no, we don't (yet) let p-m actually drive migration.  It's a goal, and a good one, but not a realised one.
<slangasek> yes, the pending-sru page is the driver, the update_excuses page doesn't drive promotions
<xnox> sure, but we tought a bunch of non #ubuntu-release users to look at proposed-migration outputs =) and i'm now seeing people who know proposed-migration, and are completely unaware of all the other old-school reports pages.
<slangasek> that seems like a failure of the education system, not the SRU process
<xnox> (i do know how things are done; but external perception of how things are done is shifting)
<slangasek> we're not going to jump to prioritize a bunch of engineering work around the proposed-migration pages just because someone told someone to look at the wrong page
<xnox> =)
<xnox> ok
<infinity> I dunno.  I think we should delete our bug tracker because some users prefer to use forums.
<robru> +1
<infinity> xnox: Will you drive the migration of our bug reporting to ubuntuforums.org?
<xnox> infinity, yes please! let's move to BTS
<barry> rm -rf launchpad
<slangasek> barry: bzr first
<xnox> infinity, or better Jira - the best tracker ever.
<infinity> *shudder*
<barry> slangasek: still waiting for feedback on that draft :)
<robru> I'll begin adding CVS support to bileto today.
<slangasek> barry: I know
 * xnox is not sure what it tracks, but I heard it's good at tracking tracks
<slangasek> xnox: is that pronounced /ji'ra/ or /dÊi'ra/ or /Êi'ra/ or /Êi'Éºa/ ?
<slangasek> ok, looks like we're done
<slangasek> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Thu Dec 15 16:39:17 2016 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2016/ubuntu-meeting.2016-12-15-16.05.moin.txt
<slangasek> thanks, all!
<caribou> thanks!
<xnox> slangasek, in droidspeak j is silent so it becomes /i:rah/
<slangasek> ... droidspeak?
<xnox> slangasek, are you not Rogue One? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Languages_in_Star_Wars#Droidspeak
<slangasek> ... no
<doko> are we done?
<doko> slangasek: ^^^
<slangasek> doko: yes, I '#endmeeting'ed 15 minutes ago
<doko> ahh
#ubuntu-meeting 2016-12-17
<Kilos> o/
#ubuntu-meeting 2017-12-11
<tcarrondo> gsilvapt: ei
<gsilvapt> ei tcarrondo
<tyhicks> hello
<tyhicks> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Mon Dec 11 16:30:38 2017 UTC.  The chair is tyhicks. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
<mdeslaur> \o
<tyhicks> The meeting agenda can be found at:
<tyhicks> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/Meeting
<tyhicks> [TOPIC] Weekly stand-up report
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Weekly stand-up report
<tyhicks> jdstrand: you're up
<jdstrand> hi
<jdstrand> Last week I was able to get through all the snapd 2.30 work (yay). This week I plan to focus on:
<jdstrand> - being responsive to snapd PR reviews (eg, wayland slot, layouts, xdg-settings/userd, etc)
<jdstrand> - rewriting the snappy-app-dev udev script
<jdstrand> - finishing the planned review-tools updates for December
<jdstrand> - pickup brand store snap declarations as have times
<jdstrand> - pickup tun/tap and kmod spread test issues
<jdstrand> that's it from me. mdeslaur, you're up
<mdeslaur> I'm on triage this week
<mdeslaur> and I have an openssl update coming out
<mdeslaur> I have a couple more things to test and release
<mdeslaur> that's about it, sbeattie, you're up
<sbeattie> I'm in the happy place this week, and I've got a short week (friday off)
<sbeattie> I'm focusing on snap cve triage
<sbeattie> I have some apparmor tasks to do, plus prep for the apparmor upstream meeting
<sbeattie> and the usual kernel triage bits
<sbeattie> that's it for me. tyhicks?
<tyhicks> I'm in the happy place
<tyhicks> I'm working on some embargoed issues
<tyhicks> I'll be doing a squashfs-tools SRU for preserving symlink mtimes
<tyhicks> continue to fix any resquash issues that are found
<tyhicks> that's it for me right now
<tyhicks> jjohansen: you're up
<tyhicks> ah, he's not in right now
<tyhicks> sarnold: you're up
<sarnold> i'm on community this week
<sarnold> working on the libteam mir
<sarnold> the buildlog and cppcheck output look different enough from last time around that I'm hopeful it'll go quickly :)
<sarnold> and uh figuring out if this is going to be a short week or not. maybe it's time to stop procrastinating that :)
<sarnold> that's it for me, chrisccoulson?
<chrisccoulson> short week for me this week - I finish for christmas today
<chrisccoulson> I plan to have chromium published before I finish
<mdeslaur> sarnold: if you wait until the new year, your accumulated vacation days will go away and the problem will solve itself
<chrisccoulson> That's me done :)
<sarnold> chrisccoulson: _today_? :) nice
<ratliff> enjoy your time off, chrisccoulson!
<ratliff> I'm in the happy place this week.
<chrisccoulson> thanks :)
<sarnold> mdeslaur: wow :) that's next-level procrastination :D
<mdeslaur> hehehe
<ratliff> I hope to finish my internal project and then work on importing data into InfluxDB for kpis.
<ratliff> I'm going to be adding the holiday rotation to the team calendar today, so if there are any changes to the proposal, please let me know.
<ratliff> on to you, leosilva
<leosilva> I'm bug triage this week.
<leosilva> I have some research to do about libxml2 issue (it's trick and I'm thinking in publish the CVE I have before find and fix it)
<leosilva> Also will do some CVE triage/research to push some pkgs on my stack.
<leosilva> that's it for me.
<leosilva> tyhicks: it's back to you!
 * tyhicks catches up
<tyhicks> thanks!
<tyhicks> [TOPIC] Highlighted packages
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Highlighted packages
<tyhicks> The Ubuntu Security team will highlight some community-supported packages that might be good candidates for updating and or triaging. If you would like to help Ubuntu and not sure where to start, this is a great way to do so.
<tyhicks> See https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/UpdateProcedures for details and if you have any questions, feel free to ask in #ubuntu-security. To find out other ways of helping out, please see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/GettingInvolved.
<tyhicks> https://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/tre.html
<tyhicks> https://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/w3af.html
<tyhicks> https://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/k4dirstat.html
<tyhicks> https://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/ccid.html
<tyhicks> https://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/elixir.html
<tyhicks> Does anyone have any other questions or items to discuss?
<tyhicks> [TOPIC] Miscellaneous and Questions
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Miscellaneous and Questions
<tyhicks> jdstrand, mdeslaur, sbeattie, jjohansen, sarnold, ChrisCoulson, ratliff, leosilva: Thanks!
<tyhicks> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Mon Dec 11 16:48:41 2017 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2017/ubuntu-meeting.2017-12-11-16.30.moin.txt
<jdstrand> tyhicks: thanks!
<ratliff> thanks, tyhicks!
<sarnold> thanks tyhicks!
<sbeattie> tyhicks: thanks!
<leosilva> Thanks tyhicks!
<gsilvapt> hey all
<kyrofa> Hey there gsilvapt
<Letozaf_> o/
<gsilvapt> Is everybody from the council around?
<nhaines> o/
<kyrofa> Ken isn't here yet, it seems
<gsilvapt> Neither is carla? I don't know her nickname
<Letozaf_> I'm carla :-P
<gsilvapt> Ah, great :P
<kyrofa> Haha
<kyrofa> Has everyone read through the reverification applications?
<gsilvapt> Not all but some. kyrofa before that, we should start the meeting officially
<kyrofa> gsilvapt, I'm just saying, while waiting for Ken, might be good to do
<nhaines> I am reviewing the Swiss application.
<gsilvapt> kyrofa, makes sense
 * Letozaf_ is reading the reverification applications
<tcarrondo> I'm here, but commuting
<Letozaf_> o/
<tcarrondo> ping me if you need something from me
<kyrofa> nhaines, the draft one? :)
<nhaines> kyrofa: as it turns out, yes.  :)
<gsilvapt> Can we start at 17:10 max if Karl does not show up?
<gsilvapt> Ken. not Karl
<nhaines> You forgot Sujeevan! >:o
<gsilvapt> ah daiumn. I thought we were already 4 here :)
<gsilvapt> And I also thought the council had 5 members instead of the actual 6
<nhaines> Okay, I think we should get started.
<gsilvapt> I'd appreciate that but if you want to wait until the 15'
<nhaines> We could.  Ken might be in by then.
<kenvandine> sorry... i must have had the timezone wrong on my calendar
<wxl> might be a DST issue
<kyrofa> Hey kenvandine, welcome! No problem :)
<nhaines> That's okay, I still thought it was Tuesday yesterday.  :)
<kyrofa> nhaines, yikes, you had a bad weekend
<wxl> or a good one? XD
<nhaines> kyrofa: not *that* bad.  I forgot the meeting day was changed.  :)
<kenvandine> wait... the meeting is 2000 UTC right?
<gsilvapt> Shall we start then?
<kyrofa> Hahahaha, totally read that wrong
<kenvandine> The next meeting is scheduled for Monday, 11th December 2017 20:00 UTC and will be held in #ubuntu-meeting on irc.freenode.net.
<kenvandine> on the wiki
<nhaines> I'd be happy for another nap.  :D
<kenvandine> it's not 2000 UTC yet :)
<wxl> oh my XD
<kenvandine> and that's the time we've advertised on the agenda :)
<gsilvapt> wait, wut
<opedro> mekie, mitras?
<kyrofa> Wait... how on earth did I have an alarm set for this time, then?
<opedro> all gÃ¼d?
<opedro> :D
<wxl> ah ha! it's gsilvapt who's had a bad ("good") weekend apparently XD
<kyrofa> It's not even close
<kenvandine> :)
<opedro> salutations from the iberian peninsula, humanoids
<gsilvapt> Oh lord
<gsilvapt> https://screenshots.firefox.com/AiMWiTnsB6F9mPqO/www.timeanddate.com
<nhaines> Because the worldtime link is wrong.  :)
<gsilvapt> Why does this says the event is already gone?
<gsilvapt> Ä¨t's not my fault then :(
<kyrofa> Ugh, that explains things
<nhaines> gsilvapt: because the wiki says 20:00 but the link asks for 17:00.  :)
<tcarrondo> so? 20UTC?
<kenvandine> oh... i never looked at the link
<kenvandine> just added it to my calendar as 20:00
<kenvandine> we have nearly 3 hours until the meeting starts
<nhaines> I think we had probably better wait in case people were planning on attending.
<opedro> @nhaines i know i was
<kenvandine> we need to wait until 2000, yes
<nhaines> opedro: glad you're here at least.  :)
<kyrofa> Indeed
<opedro> ahah. and im at work
<wxl> i mean, hey, /kd
<opedro> i better beat it then, uh?
<wxl> to be clear i'm not joking or ribbing, but being serious
<tiagopolicarpopt> HI guys an ladeis.
<Letozaf_> o/
<opedro> @tiagopolicarpopt olÃ¡, mister
<nhaines> Okay, I've updated the agenda.
<tiagopolicarpopt> i am where to help my loco team to valtion team loco
<kenvandine> nhaines, thx
<wxl> hey i figured it out! if you roundup(17) in python, you get 20!
<kenvandine> lol
<wxl> also that penultimate line from me is a wrong chnanel message, my classic move
<opedro> so what time is it, anyways?
<nhaines> It is in 2.5 hours from now.  :)
<wxl> Mon Dec 11 17:24:48 UTC 2017
<tiagopolicarpopt> the team loco Portugal, is very organize and activite.
<wxl> irssi: /exec -out date -u
<opedro> @nhaines meh! :\
<opedro> dinner time, sis
<wxl> i have a whole slew of helpful time aliases i should probably publish
<gsilvapt> OH god
<opedro> gotta eat my daily dose of kangaroo meat
<gsilvapt> I feel so bbad :(
<wxl> well actually
<tiagopolicarpopt> please check the wiki loco team portugal
<wxl> how many re-verifications are there?
<opedro> @gsilvapt fuxx it. it happens,. no beat yourself down
<opedro> no worries, mate
<nhaines> wxl: 6 standing for this agenda.
<wxl> if we got people here maybe we could do them now. thoughts?
<nhaines> The applications are all pretty comprehensive.  We can do them in abstencia.
<opedro> or we can all relax and have a smoke and sip some cognac
<nhaines> I like his style.  :)
<opedro> say @nhaines, you from the tuga?
<opedro> xD
<nhaines> opedro: likely not, as I have no idea what that means.  :D
<opedro> say okay, then
<nhaines> Okay!
<opedro> so shall we begin, gents and misses
<nhaines> We really do need to wait--we have LCC members who aren't here, probably because they had the correct time.  :)
<tiagopolicarpopt> i have stop in gas station too connect to where
<nhaines> On the bright side, we probably won't have this problem in the future!
<kenvandine> :)
<nhaines> I think I'm going to go test whether or not I was kidding about that nap.... >_>
<tiagopolicarpopt> i using mobile data, if a lose my connection maybe my packet is off on mobile data
<nhaines> tiagopolicarpopt: have a safe commute and join us in 2.5 hours.  :)
<opedro> nap she says. go get it. Â»_Â»
<opedro> check all laterz
<tiagopolicarpopt> Ok, nhaines
<lapisdecor> I think I didn't understood well, is the meeting taking place now or in 2.5 hours?
<nhaines> lapisdecor: in 2.5 hours.
<lapisdecor> I have my syster birtday dinner in 2.5 hours, less or more, I'll read the logs later.
<nhaines> lapisdecor: please have a happy party for her birthday.  :)
<lapisdecor> nhaines, thank you!
<opedro> i was here, mr. printscreen man.
<tiagopolicarpopt> see you to later, tks
<gsilvapt> Well, I'm guessing we are meeting in 2 hours then, right?
<nhaines> Yes.
<gsilvapt> Sorry for the confusion guys. I really thought we were starting 45 minutes ago. Oh well, time to go home
<Letozaf_> see you later guys... :)
<DiogoC> Hi all
<Letozaf_> 0/
<MajB> Hello Ubuntu-ites.  Swords stacked as per instructions.
<Guest23768> hi
<Naudy_> Hello / Hola
<elmudo> Hi
<x3mboy> Hi
<x3mboy> t - 12 minutes?
<elmudometal> 8 minutes
<kyrofa> Hey everyone!
<gsilvapt> nhaines, kyrofa, Letozaf_ kenvandine, we up this time?
<Letozaf_> o/
<gsilvapt> Ugh, the timing :P
<kenvandine> \o
<kyrofa> nhaines is probably still napping
 * kenvandine grabs the bull horn
<kyrofa> svij mentioned that he'd be a bit late
<wxl> i thought i'd hang about since this is your first meeting together, but since nhaines is about, you probably don't need anything else (he's an old timer). that said, back to ignoring this channel unless pinged :)
<gsilvapt> I'll try and ask in telegram
<kyrofa> Thanks wxl :)
<gsilvapt> thank you, wxl
<kenvandine> who wants to drive the bot for the meeting?
<wxl> happy to help folks. thanks for taking on this big mass of re-verifications as your first task! i think this is something we should celebrate on the hub :)
<kenvandine> indeed
<gsilvapt> I can do that although I need to search for the commands. I don't remember
<wxl> hm
<wxl> look at the topic
<kenvandine> gsilvapt, i think i know them
<wxl> ok not paying attention anymore ;)
<kenvandine>  startmeeting, topic, endmeeting :)
<gsilvapt> yes
<kenvandine> gsilvapt, i'll do it this time :)
<gsilvapt> and vote etc
<gsilvapt> Ok, sure, take the lead!
<gsilvapt> svij said he needs 2 minutes. Lets wait for him :-)
<svij> howdy
 * kenvandine waves to svij 
<kenvandine> #startmeeting LoCoCouncil 2017-12-11
<meetingology> Meeting started Mon Dec 11 20:07:51 2017 UTC.  The chair is kenvandine. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | LoCoCouncil 2017-12-11 Meeting | Current topic:
<kenvandine> council members please wave to record attendance
 * kenvandine waves
 * svij waves
 * gsilvapt waves
 * Letozaf_ waves
 * kyrofa waves
<kenvandine> just missing nhaines
<gsilvapt> FYI, I'm creating the minute page for this meeting. I'll take a previous sample and modify as we need and require.
<kenvandine> gsilvapt, thx
<kenvandine> anyone know what we need for a quorum?
<kenvandine> i'd imagine we have enough
<svij> I guess so
<svij> more than 50% :)
 * nhaines waves
<kenvandine> yay!
<kenvandine> 100% attendance!
<kenvandine> ok... shall we move on to the re-verifications?
<gsilvapt> Yes
<kenvandine> #topic AZLOCOTeam
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | LoCoCouncil 2017-12-11 Meeting | Current topic: AZLOCOTeam
<kenvandine> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ArizonaTeam/Re-validationApplication2017
<kenvandine> anyone here to represent AZLOCOTeam?
<pavlos> I'm here
<MajB> I am here from the AZLOCO Team
<kenvandine> the re-verification wiki page looks very thorough and kudos for being so active!
<MajB> Thank you
<nhaines> It looks like you've continued your great work this year.
<kenvandine> does anyone have questions for AZLOCO?
<svij> no questions from me, looks good :)
<kyrofa> Indeed, no question here either
<nhaines> I think things are pretty straightforward.  No questions from me.
<Letozaf_> ok for me too
<kenvandine> i guess we should vote
<gsilvapt> Yeap. I like their page and although the roadmap is ambitious, they have some members in their group so they are up for it
<kenvandine> #vote AZLOCOTeam re-verification
<meetingology> Please vote on: AZLOCOTeam re-verification
<meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (for private voting, private message me with 'vote +1/-1/+0 #channelname)
<svij> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from svij
<gsilvapt> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from gsilvapt
<kenvandine> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from kenvandine
<kyrofa> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from kyrofa
<Letozaf_> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from Letozaf_
<nhaines> +1 Good job, AZ team  :)
<meetingology> +1 Good job, AZ team  :) received from nhaines
<kenvandine> #endvote
<meetingology> Voting ended on: AZLOCOTeam re-verification
<meetingology> Votes for:6 Votes against:0 Abstentions:0
<meetingology> Motion carried
<svij> congrats :)
<pavlos> thank you all
<kenvandine> thanks for the great work!
<MajB> Thank you LoCo Council
<kyrofa> pavlos, MajB thank you for all your good work, and for attending today
<nhaines> Thank you for your service to the Ubuntu community.  :)
<kenvandine> #topic MyanmarTeam
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | LoCoCouncil 2017-12-11 Meeting | Current topic: MyanmarTeam
<kenvandine> anyone here to represent MyanmarTeam?
<kenvandine> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MyanmarTeam/VerificationApplication2017
<kyrofa> I'm afraid this loco looks relatively inactive to me
<nhaines> It does seem like outward events have dropped off sharply since the last two years.
<kyrofa> Most recent event listed in the verification app is 2016, and most recent post on the website seems to be for 16.10
<kenvandine> yeah, that concerned me as well
<gsilvapt> I was reading their page a few hours ago and it feels they are inactive since 2016. At least according to the provided information. I'd suggest they work up their page and/or show some activity and apply again in some time
<kyrofa> Flickr shows a 17.10 release party, though
<kyrofa> I agre with gsilvapt
<kyrofa> Looks like they have a community, but it needs more leadership
<gsilvapt> s/provided information/information provided
<nhaines> I'm sure there is leadership, but I'd like to see more information about their recent activities and their roadmap for thefuture.  I suspect that the application is simply incomplete.
<kenvandine> so do we vote?  or ask them to get added to the agenda when someone can be here?
<nhaines> I'd like to extend their verification provisionally and request more information from them for the next meeting.
<gsilvapt> +1 with nhaines
<kenvandine> +1
<kyrofa> +1 from me as well
<kenvandine> should we do a vote to extend 2 months?
<Letozaf_> +1
<gsilvapt> lets vote on that, kenvandine
<nhaines> +1
<kyrofa> Don't we meet once a month?
<kenvandine> yeah, but thought with the holidy
<gsilvapt> Yes, but I think the idea is to give a few months so they have time to prepare their stuff
<kenvandine> might be good to give them a little more time
<nhaines> Yeah, but it's all kinds of crazy holidays right now.
<gsilvapt> and there's that too
<kenvandine> we are behind
<kyrofa> Fair enough
<kenvandine> #vote MyanmarTeam Two month extension
<meetingology> Please vote on: MyanmarTeam Two month extension
<meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (for private voting, private message me with 'vote +1/-1/+0 #channelname)
<kyrofa> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from kyrofa
<kenvandine> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from kenvandine
<Letozaf_> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from Letozaf_
<gsilvapt> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from gsilvapt
<svij> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from svij
<nhaines> +1 Please improve the application and get back to us.  :)
<meetingology> +1 Please improve the application and get back to us.  :) received from nhaines
<kenvandine> #endvote
<meetingology> Voting ended on: MyanmarTeam Two month extension
<meetingology> Votes for:6 Votes against:0 Abstentions:0
<meetingology> Motion carried
<kenvandine> #topic VenezuelaTeam
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | LoCoCouncil 2017-12-11 Meeting | Current topic: VenezuelaTeam
<kenvandine> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/VenezuelaTeam/Re-validationApplication2017
<kenvandine> anyone here to represent VenezuelaTeam?
<elmudometal> i am VenezuelaTeam
<Naudy> I'm here
<x3mboy> I'm here too
<kenvandine> hello!
<gsilvapt> hi guys :-) I had a look to your application and I honestly think it is a similar case to Arizona. Well structure, nothing to point out. Very ambitious Roadmap, seems ok with your member's numbers
<gsilvapt> s/structure/structured
<svij> I agree :)
<nhaines> It looks like you have a lot of momentum built up.
<kyrofa> Yeah, easy review indeed
<tiagopolicarpopt> Hi again
<kenvandine> indeed
<nhaines> I noticed that there were less events for 2017 than 2016.  But it's still extremely impressive.  Is there anything that lead to this that you're concerned about?
<gsilvapt> The only question I have is: Why didn't you guys renew your membership?
<kyrofa> nhaines, there were like 100 in 2016. They probably got burnt out :D
<svij> hehe
<gsilvapt> he he
<kenvandine> lets hope not :)
<kenvandine> or... hope they feel refreshed
<tcarrondo> hi! still on time?
<Naudy> Problems with internet in Venezuela which have been many failures
<nhaines> kyrofa: They have nothing to be ashamed about for a strong 2017.  I just want to get a feeling for how things are going.
<nhaines> Naudy: that would be a good reason!
<kenvandine> agreed
<Letozaf_> sorry had a prolbem
<kenvandine> shall we vote?
<svij> yup
<kenvandine> #vote VenezuelaTeam
<meetingology> Please vote on: VenezuelaTeam
<meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (for private voting, private message me with 'vote +1/-1/+0 #channelname)
<kenvandine> #voters kenvandine svij gsilvapt kyrofa Letozaf_ nhaines
<meetingology> Current voters: Letozaf_ gsilvapt kenvandine kyrofa nhaines svij
<kyrofa> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from kyrofa
<nhaines> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from nhaines
<gsilvapt> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from gsilvapt
<svij> +1
<kenvandine> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from svij
<Letozaf_> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from kenvandine
<meetingology> +1 received from Letozaf_
<tiagopolicarpopt> I'm part of the loco team
<kenvandine> #endvote
<meetingology> Voting ended on: VenezuelaTeam
<meetingology> Votes for:6 Votes against:0 Abstentions:0
<meetingology> Motion carried
<svij> tiagopolicarpopt: venezuela not portugal ;)
<kenvandine> congrats!
<kenvandine> we're looking forward to what 2018 has in store!
<nhaines> Good job, Venezuela Team.  Keep up the excellent work!
<x3mboy> :D
<elmudometal> Thz :D
<kenvandine> #topic Ubuntu Tunisia
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | LoCoCouncil 2017-12-11 Meeting | Current topic: Ubuntu Tunisia
<kenvandine> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/TunisianTeam/ReVerificationApplication2017
<kenvandine> Anyone here to represent Ubuntu Tunisia
<tcarrondo> congrats Venezuela!
<x3mboy> Thanks
<Naudy> thanks to all
<gsilvapt> Keep it up, Venezuela! :)
<tiagopolicarpopt> Sorry i am on mobile web, i lost some messenger, svij
<svij> tiagopolicarpopt: no worries ;)
<tiagopolicarpopt> congrats Venezuela!
<gsilvapt> So, nobody from Tunisian LoCo?
<kenvandine> their team reports page ends at 2015
<kyrofa> This loco does not seem tremendously active, although their application indicates a fairly constant number of events per year, none of their other pages have been updated for years, and I see no website
<gsilvapt> My opinion is they are opting for an educating strategy to gain more members which seems plausible and I understand this problem some LoCos often experience. That said, they present an interesting roadmap and with focus on educating new people to Ubuntu and open source software.
<svij> I agree to gsilvapt
<nhaines> I also agree with gsilvapt.
<kenvandine> there has been recent activity on their mailing list
<svij> their mailing lists looks aktive too
<svij> kenvandine was faster than me :)
<gsilvapt> Well, we do not have a representative here but they could use other means of communication
<kyrofa> The loco verification page (https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LoCoCouncil/TeamVerificationGuidelines) lists a website as an example of an established resource. Does the lack of one here seem concerning?
<gsilvapt> Still, they use the mailing list for topics related to the LoCo so I don't know whether the ML is their main form of communication or not
<svij> we don't know much about the irc channel though
<svij> but I see some of the ubuntu-tn people around in other channels
<gsilvapt> The entire sentence says more than that, kyrofa: This requires some evidence that the team has established various resources (website, mailing list, listing of activities on the LoCo Directory etc)
<kenvandine> the wiki pages are quite out dated
<nhaines> Their Facebook pages seem at least semi-active (I don't use Facebook so I can't tell for sure).
<Letozaf_> They have done some presentations in 2017: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/TunisianTeam/Presentations
<kyrofa> gsilvapt, yes, I said "an example" :)
<gsilvapt> kyrofa, sorry. Wanted to clarify that part a bit as it did not concern me too much. However, it concerns me the fact they do not have their LoCo directory updated or with much activity
<kyrofa> From my perspective, I see an application that is up-to-date but nothing else
<nhaines> kyrofa: but they have two webpages listed in the application.  :)
<kenvandine> yeah
<kenvandine> although the mailing list is active
<kenvandine> that's something
<nhaines> And they have clear plans for the future as well.
<svij> yeah, I guess we should advise them to update their pages
<gsilvapt> I'd vote positively as they are betting on educating new people. On the other hand, we could advise some general updates to their pages and keep an eye on their activity logs
<nhaines> Documenting their work will help their team and others as well.
<gsilvapt> True
<gsilvapt> Shall we vote?
<kenvandine> i wonder if they have meetings?
<gsilvapt> kenvandine, according to their LoCo directory, not since 2013 but I hardly doubt this is an updated information
<kenvandine> latest pictures is also 2013
<kenvandine> but they did renew in 2015
<kenvandine> shall we suggest they update the directory and some pages?
<gsilvapt> Ok, to be consistent that makes sense
<kenvandine> or... just vote to re-verify or not?
<nhaines> Yes, I think that's important.  And they seem to know it, according to their mailing list.
<kyrofa> Yeah, I think they need to update stuff
<svij> they also use facebook, didn't check how active that is
<kenvandine> not terribly
<kenvandine> some current stuff
<kenvandine> #vote Ubuntu Tunisia Two month extension
<meetingology> Please vote on: Ubuntu Tunisia Two month extension
<meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (for private voting, private message me with 'vote +1/-1/+0 #channelname)
<kenvandine> #voters kenvandine svij gsilvapt kyrofa Letozaf_ nhaines
<meetingology> Current voters: Letozaf_ gsilvapt kenvandine kyrofa nhaines svij
<gsilvapt> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from gsilvapt
<Letozaf_> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from Letozaf_
<kenvandine> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from kenvandine
<kyrofa> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from kyrofa
<svij> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from svij
<nhaines> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from nhaines
<kenvandine> #endvote
<meetingology> Voting ended on: Ubuntu Tunisia Two month extension
<meetingology> Votes for:6 Votes against:0 Abstentions:0
<meetingology> Motion carried
<gsilvapt> The next LoCo is my own LoCo. Should I abstain from voting?
<kenvandine> #topic Ubuntu Portugal
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | LoCoCouncil 2017-12-11 Meeting | Current topic: Ubuntu Portugal
<kenvandine> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/PortugalTeam/Re-validationApplication2017
<kenvandine> Anyone here to represent Ubuntu Portugal
<tcarrondo> here! From Ericeira, Portugal :)
<kenvandine> gsilvapt, not sure :)
<tcarrondo> hi, all
<svij> hey tcarrondo
<DiogoC> me to, but tcarrondo is the representative
<nhaines> Thanks for being here.  :)
<DiogoC> too
<svij> familiar faces to the nicknames for me :)
<tcarrondo> hi, svij
<tiagopolicarpopt> Me too from portugal
<tcarrondo> and nhaines
<DiogoC> all
<DiogoC> :)
<kenvandine> great representation!
<kenvandine> says allot :)
<tcarrondo> I don' know how to mention here...
<tcarrondo> my bad
<kyrofa> I have a question on the application: what is the difference between events "Organized by the LoCo" and "events where we participated" ?
<tcarrondo> I'll answer
<tcarrondo> some events we are "just" invited to participate
<tcarrondo> and give talks
<nhaines> This sounds very humble.  Those still count as events!  :)
<tcarrondo> but those events are not organized by the LoCo,
<kyrofa> Ah ha-- so these lists need to be added together?
<nhaines> And it's a great way to get more exposure and give newer members experience without being overwhelming.
<tcarrondo> so we shouldn't get the organization credits for them
<kyrofa> Yeah this is great
<kenvandine> excellent application
<tcarrondo> thanks!
<kenvandine> any more questions before we vote?
<nhaines> Do you have any specific plans or wishes for the team in 2018?
<svij> I hope for an UbuCon Europe 2019 ;)
<kyrofa> Indeed. My only suggestion is to double check your wiki page, it looks a tad old. Make sure it's still relevant
<kyrofa> No more questions from me
<tcarrondo> Ubucon 2019? don't ruin the surpise...
<svij> hahaha
<nhaines> Haha!
<gsilvapt> :D
<tcarrondo> wiki page? It should be done! thanks
<kenvandine> #vote Ubuntu Portugal
<meetingology> Please vote on: Ubuntu Portugal
<meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (for private voting, private message me with 'vote +1/-1/+0 #channelname)
<kenvandine> #voters kenvandine svij gsilvapt kyrofa Letozaf_ nhaines
<meetingology> Current voters: Letozaf_ gsilvapt kenvandine kyrofa nhaines svij
<kyrofa> gsilvapt, I suggest you obstain, although I suspect it won't matter ;)
<kenvandine> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from kenvandine
<nhaines> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from nhaines
<svij> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from svij
<kyrofa> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from kyrofa
<Letozaf_> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from Letozaf_
<gsilvapt> 0 as it is my LoCo and this feel more adequate
<meetingology> 0 as it is my LoCo and this feel more adequate received from gsilvapt
<kenvandine> #endvote
<meetingology> Voting ended on: Ubuntu Portugal
<meetingology> Votes for:5 Votes against:0 Abstentions:1
<meetingology> Motion carried
<kenvandine> congrats!
<svij> congrats, keep up your good work :)
<DiogoC> :)
<kenvandine> and thanks for all the great work
<nhaines> Congratulations, and keep up the great work!  :D
<tcarrondo> :)
<kyrofa> Looking great guys, keep it up
<DiogoC> thanks
<gsilvapt> Thank you guys ::)
<Letozaf_> Congrats
<tiagopolicarpopt> :)
<tcarrondo> thanks!!
<kenvandine> #topic SwissTeam
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | LoCoCouncil 2017-12-11 Meeting | Current topic: SwissTeam
<kenvandine> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SwissTeam/ReVerificationApplication2017
<kenvandine> Anyone here to represent SwissTeam
<tiagopolicarpopt> Thanks
<kenvandine> i guess we don't have a SwissTeam representative
<gsilvapt> Their information is not very clear. They seem active, but don't have a LoCo Directory nor is that up-to-date
<kenvandine> events seem quite lacking
<gsilvapt> Or is this a first-time request and thus they don't have a LoCo Directory?
<nhaines> It appears to me that they were concerned that they needed to be on the agenda to at least gain more time to finish the application.
<kyrofa> Yeah, judging from the Linux Day site they have things going on, but the application seems incomplete
<svij> the application also says DRAFT at the top
<kyrofa> Heh
<kenvandine> huge gap in mailing list traffic
<kenvandine> oct 16 to dec 17
<kyrofa> Ouch
<kenvandine> and dec 17 was about re-verification
<kenvandine> sounds like they might be trying to get the loco going again
<svij> but swiss is a bit different to other countries, since Germany has a strong community and many people are helping online over there
<kyrofa> Yeah, I say give them a two-month extension
<nhaines> Yeah, I think things look positive but we need concrete information.  They should have more time to get it to us.  :)
<kenvandine> ok
<kenvandine> lets vote on that
<gsilvapt> shall we vote on that?
<svij> yup
<kenvandine> #topic SwissTeam Two month extension
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | LoCoCouncil 2017-12-11 Meeting | Current topic: SwissTeam Two month extension
<kenvandine> whoops
<gsilvapt> vote not topic :P
<kyrofa> Haha
<kenvandine> #vote SwissTeam Two month extension
<meetingology> Please vote on: SwissTeam Two month extension
<meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (for private voting, private message me with 'vote +1/-1/+0 #channelname)
<svij> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from svij
<kyrofa> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from kyrofa
<kenvandine> #voters kenvandine svij gsilvapt kyrofa Letozaf_ nhaines
<meetingology> Current voters: Letozaf_ gsilvapt kenvandine kyrofa nhaines svij
<Letozaf_> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from Letozaf_
<kenvandine> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from kenvandine
<gsilvapt> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from gsilvapt
<nhaines> +1 Please continue working on your application and get back to us.  :)
<meetingology> +1 Please continue working on your application and get back to us.  :) received from nhaines
<kenvandine> #endvote
<meetingology> Voting ended on: SwissTeam Two month extension
<meetingology> Votes for:6 Votes against:0 Abstentions:0
<meetingology> Motion carried
<kenvandine> #topic any other business?
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | LoCoCouncil 2017-12-11 Meeting | Current topic: any other business?
<kenvandine> who wants to go update all the expirations?
 * kyrofa waves, because I have no clue how
<nhaines> #vote Who wants to update all the expirations?
<kenvandine> great time to learn :)
<kyrofa> Exactly!
 * Letozaf_ me too does not have idea
<nhaines> It's actually pretty easy.
<kyrofa> Letozaf_ we can split them unless someone else also doesn't know?
 * nhaines hides /o\
<kenvandine> nhaines, we have a voluteer :)
<kenvandine> just change the date and enter a comment for why
<kenvandine> i can show you on the first one
<nhaines> I've done it before.  :)
 * Letozaf_ ok looks easy
<kenvandine> nhaines, for kyrofa :)
<kenvandine> shall we confirm a date for our next meeting?
<nhaines> Sure.
<kyrofa> kenvandine, you do AZ, I'll do Myanmar, Venezuala, and Tunisia, Letozaf_ you can do Portugal and Switzerland. Sound okay?
<kenvandine> ok
<nhaines> Any questions, just ask in the IRC channel or Telegram group.  :)
<Letozaf_> ok
<kyrofa> Good deal
<kyrofa> Next meeting, Jan 8th, 2000 UTC?
<nhaines> Works for me!
<kenvandine> yeah
<kenvandine> works for me
<kyrofa> Anyone not gonna be here?
<Letozaf_> ok
<svij> yup
<kyrofa> Cool
<x3mboy> o/
<kenvandine> anything else?
<MajB> Thanks.  Good meeting.
<nhaines> Happy holidays to everyone, of course.  :)  Happy new year in particular!
<kenvandine> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Mon Dec 11 21:09:25 2017 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2017/ubuntu-meeting.2017-12-11-20.07.moin.txt
<Letozaf_> Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to you all
<kenvandine> Happy Holidays to all!
<kyrofa> Merry Christmas!
<kenvandine> gsilvapt, http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2017/ubuntu-meeting.2017-12-11-20.07.moin.txt
<kenvandine> gsilvapt, you can grab the notes from there
<Naudy> Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to you all
#ubuntu-meeting 2017-12-12
<gsilvapt> wxl, you around=
<gsilvapt> s/=/?
<gsilvapt> I need to change a meeting schedule in the Ubuntu Fridge calendar. Can someone give some help?
<wxl> @gsilvapt: try pinging on #ubuntu-community-team. SOMEONE will have access :)
<gsilvapt> Okay, thank you wxl
#ubuntu-meeting 2017-12-13
<gsilvapt> Hello all. I need help. I need to change a meeting time and date in the Fridge Calendar. How can I do that?
#ubuntu-meeting 2017-12-14
 * slangasek waves
<Odd_Bloke> o/
<philroche> \o
<fginther> o/
<slangasek> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Thu Dec 14 16:00:48 2017 UTC.  The chair is slangasek. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
<slangasek> [TOPIC] Lightning round
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Lightning round
<slangasek> $ echo $(shuf -e slangasek bdmurray xnox tdaitx doko sil2100 rbalint infinity cyphermox mwhudson rcj philroche Odd_Bloke tribaal fginther)
<slangasek> xnox sil2100 mwhudson philroche Odd_Bloke rcj cyphermox tribaal fginther rbalint doko slangasek bdmurray infinity tdaitx
<slangasek> xnox: tag
<sil2100> Oh no
<slangasek> xnox: ?
<xnox> no
<xnox> * systemd updates / SRU
<xnox> * openssl 1.1.0 rebuilds / analysis
<xnox> * s390x bugs triange and fixing
<xnox> * out last week; end of year at end of friday.
<xnox> done
<slangasek> sil2100: oh yes
<xnox> something is odd - i'm first twice in a row, well - this week and two weeks ago.
<xnox> slangasek, mumble?
<sil2100> - Regular SRU reviews/releases
<sil2100> - Kernel SRUs *again*!
<sil2100> - Looking into Bileto breakage
<sil2100> - ubuntu-image - Testing 1.3 for all stable series
<sil2100> - Look and resolve NBS (some package removals done)
<xnox> slangasek, https://hangouts.google.com/hangouts/_/canonical.com/mumblymumble
<sil2100> - Do a pre-NEW review of opengcs
<sil2100> - Look into merge-o-matic for the stats generation code (for KPIs)
<sil2100> - Look into britney2 and its Bileto deployment
<sil2100> - Syncing up on the hwe stack for 16.04.4
<sil2100> - Some other stuff I didn't have time to write down oh no!
<bdmurray> sil2100: done?
<bdmurray> rbalint: your turn
<sil2100> (done)
<sil2100> (sorry)
<philroche> * Cloud image build system vanguard
<philroche> * Partner cloud image work
<Odd_Bloke> bdmurray: Wrong order, dude.
<philroche> (done)
<Odd_Bloke> * (HIGHLIGHT) xenial GCE images now use the linux-gcp custom kernel
<bdmurray> Odd_Bloke: oops
<Odd_Bloke> * Fixed the issue with all trusty instances having the same machine id (LP: #1731279)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1731279 in cloud-images "Trusty instances get same machine-id" [Undecided,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1731279
<Odd_Bloke> * A variety of work servicing partner requests
<Odd_Bloke> (done)
<Odd_Bloke> No rcj today
<Odd_Bloke> cyphermox:
<Odd_Bloke> bdmurray: Luckily noone listens to you.
<bdmurray> Odd_Bloke: way to break the illusion
<bdmurray> cyphermox is out today
<bdmurray> Tribaal:
<Tribaal> * Partner UEFI boot work
<Tribaal> * Series/package release management work for a partner.
<Tribaal> * Started SRU of "vagrant" user fix to Xenial (https://bugs.launchpad.net/cloud-images/+bug/1569237)
<Tribaal> * [BLOG] Wrote a quick list of "magic URLs" I discovered over time. https://tribaal.io/magic-urls.html
<Tribaal> (done)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1569237 in cloud-images x-series "vagrant xenial box is not provided with vagrant/vagrant username and password" [Undecided,Confirmed]
<fginther> * Fixed issue with publication of certain HVM images on AWS
<fginther> * Working on images changes to support additional boot options on a partner cloud
<fginther> * Investigating image testing on a partner cloud
<fginther> * Testing for latest gce-compute-image-packages
<fginther> (done)
<slangasek> rbalint:
<slangasek> doko:
<doko> - gcc-8 update
<doko> - update graphviz to new upstream and port Python3 patches from the trunk
<doko> - mentor Lucasz with several archive-admin tasks
<doko> - MIR processing
<doko> - split out some modules to minimize the size of python3
<doko> - send emails about Python2 and GTK2 demotions
<doko> - toolchain updates
<doko> - libical transition, demoting libical2
<doko> (done)
<slangasek>  * was out last Thursday
<slangasek>  * autopkgtest infra management:
<slangasek>   * arm64 was a bit on the floor again over the weekend
<slangasek>   * things are stable now, and arm64 is catching back up
<slangasek>   * where catching back up now means we have 1800 packages in the queue for *all* archs
<slangasek>  * discussions around snap supportability
<slangasek>  * did some merges, included busybox
<slangasek>   * then triaged a regression in busybox from the last security update, LP: #1737662
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1737662 in busybox (Ubuntu) "Unable to install ubuntu1804 build with Debootstrap warning on witherspoon system" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1737662
<slangasek>  * upcoming: last work day of the year for me is next Tuesday
<slangasek> (done)
<slangasek> bdmurray:
<bdmurray> modified mojo spec to utilize right swift credentials
<bdmurray> modified mojo spec to use version numbers with code tarballs
<bdmurray> modified mojo spec not to upload code if the same revno is already there
<bdmurray> added missing relation btwn failed-queue retracers and cassandra
<bdmurray> modified daisy, errors, retracer charms to handle version numbers
<bdmurray> added code revnos to the charm manifests, hooks
<bdmurray> landed and tested the ability to upgrade the code for the charms
<bdmurray> investigation into growth of retracer queues
<bdmurray> submitted RT 107932 regarding increasing memory on retracers
<bdmurray> â done
<bdmurray> infinity is out
<bdmurray> tdaitx: ?
<slangasek> tdaitx is out
<slangasek> any questions on status?
<slangasek> bdmurray: should we look at bugs?
<bdmurray> Well there's one I wanted to talk about
<slangasek> [TOPIC] Bugs
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Bugs
<bdmurray> bug 1574670 is assigned to adam because we wanted to fix it in the archive right?
<ubottu> bug 1574670 in update-manager (Ubuntu Artful) "ubuntu-support-status returns inaccurate information" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1574670
<bdmurray> I ask as mdeslaur has submitted some patches for update-manager to resolve it
<slangasek> bdmurray: yes, primarily
<bdmurray> They seem fine but should we be heading that way.
<slangasek> however the original plan was "republish the 16.04 release pocket shortly after release"
<slangasek> which is no longer an option, really
<slangasek> at this point, the other part of this needs to be an audit of support info generated for bionic
<xnox> how big is the impact, and should we sru the X affected packages as rebuild such that they have the right info?
<xnox> or sru ubuntu-support-status with "overrides"
<slangasek> xnox: the first is not really viable
<xnox> ack
<slangasek> bdmurray: so, +1 for fixing this via u-s-s
<bdmurray> slangasek: okay, and then a card for the bionic work?
<slangasek> bdmurray: yes - would you mind creating that?
<bdmurray> slangasek: No, I don't mind.
<slangasek> ok :)
<slangasek> [LINK] http://reqorts.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/rls-mgr/rls-bb-incoming-bug-tasks.html#foundations-bugs
<bdmurray> also bug 1737445 seems rather important but I haven't tested it yet
<ubottu> bug 1737445 in ubuntu-release-upgrader (Ubuntu) "release upgrader doesn't re-enable updates after failure" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1737445
<bdmurray> s/rather/really/
<slangasek> bdmurray: ok. I'll bump importance and accept that nomination?
<bdmurray> slangasek: Sure - I'll test it today to get a confirmation.
<slangasek> bug state fiddled.  do I have to manually import that to trello?
<bdmurray> fginther: has the autoimporter been enabled?
<bdmurray> slangasek: I believe so
<fginther> no, importing these is not yet available
<slangasek> ok, importing now
<bdmurray> bug 1732447 seems easy to SRU right?
<ubottu> bug 1732447 in command-not-found (Ubuntu) "rename no longer included in perl package, but still linked" [Medium,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1732447
<slangasek> yeah
<bdmurray> Is the process for updating c-n-f documented somewhere?
<slangasek> I think it's documented in the source branch
<bdmurray> that seems like a good spot
<slangasek> if not, then perhaps the release checklist has a pointer?
<bdmurray> okay, I'll have a look
<bdmurray> that's it from me.
<slangasek> ok
<slangasek> anything else on bugs?
<slangasek> no?
<sil2100> I think we're good
<slangasek> [TOPIC] AOB
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: AOB
<slangasek> anything else?
<bdmurray> I'm out on Monday
<sil2100> I'm out next week starting Wednesday
<doko> will there anybody between Xmas and New Year who I can ping about failed buildds? planning for the test rebuilds ...
<slangasek> about failed buildds?  no idea
<slangasek> I guess there'll be IS folks on standby?
<doko> ok, IS then
<slangasek> alrighty
<slangasek> since I won't be at any meeting next week, have a good end of year, all!
<slangasek> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Thu Dec 14 16:32:43 2017 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2017/ubuntu-meeting.2017-12-14-16.00.moin.txt
<slangasek> thanks, folks
<sil2100> Thanks!
<sil2100> o/
#ubuntu-meeting 2017-12-16
<sylvia103> #startmeeting let me think
<meetingology> Meeting started Sat Dec 16 18:02:20 2017 UTC.  The chair is sylvia103. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | let me think Meeting | Current topic:
<tsimonq2> O_o
<tsimonq2> #endmeeting
<DalekSec> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Sat Dec 16 21:22:30 2017 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2017/ubuntu-meeting.2017-12-16-18.02.moin.txt
#ubuntu-meeting 2017-12-17
<bracciali974> ââââââââââââââââââââ HAPPY NIGGER DAY!! PLEASE SAY HI TO ALL THE DUMB NIGGERS IN #OFTC...quicktalkeh676te.onion/6697qacqk: davidcalle gaughen czajkowski popey cydizen bladernr rcj ogasawara phunyguy BenC mdeslaur cpaelzer acheronuk ubot9 hyperair ddstreet chiluk sbeattie mcs_ micahg Adri2000 fginther
<bracciali974> ââââââââââââ HAPPY NIGGER DAY!! PLEASE SAY HI TO ALL THE DUMB NIGGERS IN #OFTC...quicktalkeh676te.onion/6697enoaz: mariogrip ubot9 apw acheronuk BenC hggdh jamespage micahg med_ cydizen Odd_Bloke mcs_ cpaelzer ogasawara philroche sgclark slangasek mhall119 broder Mister_Q_ sbeattie inetpro ddstreet doko elopio hyperair yofel bladernr wxl wolsen lamont dgadomski Croepha o
<easyin156> ââââââââââââ DID YOU GUYS KNOW TODAY WAS NIGGERS DAY?? SAY HI TO YOUR FAVORITY NIGGER IN #FREENODE!! quicktalkeh676te.onioniuckytxg: WaVeR Taehee_Jang inetpro slangasek flexiondotorg chiluk gsilvapt Mister_Q_ dgadomski mcs_ dragan-s ubot9 wxl gaughen hyperair phunyguy elopio toddy BenC edwinksl apw cpaelzer cydizen ogasawara nzoueidi ejat czajkowski el hggdh bladernr mic
<easyin156> âââââââââââââââ DID YOU GUYS KNOW TODAY WAS NIGGERS DAY?? SAY HI TO YOUR FAVORITY NIGGER IN #FREENODE!! quicktalkeh676te.onionmhmgu: Laney Noskcaj czajkowski cyphermox ogra_ slangasek hggdh jjohansen dgadomski chiluk flexiondotorg cpaelzer el teward Spydar007 ejat Taehee_Jang cydizen Guest16693 ogasawara #ubuntu dipraw__ cjwatson fginther markt
#ubuntu-meeting 2018-12-10
<gsilvapt> hello all
<kyrofa> Hey there gsilvapt
 * kenvandine waves
<kenvandine> time for this month's loco council meeting
<gsilvapt> hey kyrofa and kenvandine
<kenvandine> rollcall: Letozaf_ gsilvapt kenvandine krofa kyrofa nhaines
<nhaines> _o/
<kyrofa> Hey folks
<wagafo> Here wagafo from Catalan Loco Team
 * kenvandine wonders who krofa is :)
<kenvandine> #startmeeting 20181210
<meetingology> Meeting started Mon Dec 10 20:02:25 2018 UTC.  The chair is kenvandine. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | <wxl> be nice | 20181210 Meeting | Current topic:
<kenvandine> kyrofa: i had that in my meeting script...
<gsilvapt> howdy!
<kenvandine> hi wagafo!
<nhaines> wagafo: thanks for coming.  :)
<kenvandine> Letozaf_ hey
<kenvandine> #chairs Letozaf_ gsilvapt kenvandine kyrofa nhaines
<Letozaf_> hi everyone :)
<kenvandine> #topic CatalanTeam
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | <wxl> be nice | 20181210 Meeting | Current topic: CatalanTeam
<gsilvapt> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CatalanTeam/ReVerificationApplication2018
<kenvandine> wagafo: looks like your team has been pretty active
<kenvandine> at least you love to party :)
<gsilvapt> indeed, I'm happy to see an application like this
<kyrofa> Agreed, I'm impressed
<wagafo> We haven't missed a release since 2006 I believe
<wagafo> Our record was 18.04, we had it in Barcelona, Palma (Mallorca) and Foios (Valencia)
<nhaines> That impressed me!  :)
<wagafo> It wa a nice tour, I was in all three places
<kenvandine> awesome!
<wagafo> Actually it was not in Barcelona, but Tarrega, a small city about 120 km from Barcelona
<wagafo> The other two are right
<kenvandine> great to see such an active loco
<nhaines> I like that you are plannng a Free Software with Ubuntu course at a university.
<wagafo> Our forum I think is one of the most active ones of the ones for Loco hosted in Ubuntu Forums
<gsilvapt> This is hard to have anything against to say :P
<Letozaf_> you are doing a great job, indeed
<kenvandine> active mailing list and forum as well
<wagafo> It's nice also because we had some young people joining recently, like aniolgarcia who is around here
<wagafo> I want to thank the hard work of our Loco contact and coordinator, rafael_carreras
<nhaines> His hard work is clearly paying off, along with the work of everyone else in your LoCo.
<nhaines> Do you see any issues for the LoCo in the upcoming year?
<kenvandine> we're sorry we couldn't review this last month
<wagafo> The main problem I guess is to keep interest in Ubuntu and assistance to our actiivities, but this must be the case for all Loco teams. We usualy don't have problems to get venues for our install parties, there is always interest somewhere
<nhaines> Well, the best cure for that, I think, is active events, and you are surely doing a good job there.
<wagafo> I guess so, but we always discussing how to get more and better difussion to our activities
<wagafo> We have also a Telegram group to coordinate, and we have bridged it tou our IRC channel, so now there is also more activity there
<kenvandine> #vote CatalanTeam re-verification
<meetingology> Please vote on: CatalanTeam re-verification
<meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (for private voting, private message me with 'vote +1/-1/+0 #channelname)
<Letozaf_> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from Letozaf_
<kenvandine> #voters Letozaf_ gsilvapt kenvandine kyrofa nhaines
<meetingology> Current voters: Letozaf_ gsilvapt kenvandine kyrofa nhaines
<kenvandine> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from kenvandine
<kyrofa> =1
<kyrofa> Uh
<kyrofa> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from kyrofa
<nhaines> +1 Please keep up the incredible work.
<meetingology> +1 Please keep up the incredible work. received from nhaines
<kyrofa> Did we lose gsilvapt?
<kenvandine> gsilvapt?
<kenvandine> gsilvapt: welcome back, mind voting?
<gsilvapt__> sorry about that. Too many things plugged in :)
<gsilvapt__> Are we voting already?
<kenvandine> gsilvapt__: yes
<gsilvapt__> +1 for me
<kyrofa> Yes, but you might want to change your nick
<gsilvapt> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from gsilvapt
<gsilvapt> Daium :P
<kenvandine> #endvote
<meetingology> Voting ended on: CatalanTeam re-verification
<meetingology> Votes for:5 Votes against:0 Abstentions:0
<meetingology> Motion carried
<nhaines> Congratulations, Catalan Team.  And thank you, rafael_carreras, for a month's worth of patience!
<kenvandine> keep up the excellent work!
<kyrofa> Thanks wagafo, congratulations!
<wagafo> Thanks guys and gals, keep up the wonderful job you do!
<gsilvapt> Thank you for all your work
<wagafo> Thanks
<Letozaf_> Thank you for your good work
<kyrofa> I think that's it for the agenda, any open items?
<nhaines> I don't believe so.
<kenvandine> nope
<kenvandine> i think we're done
<kenvandine> thanks everyone!
<gsilvapt> Thank you everyone
<Letozaf_> yw
<kenvandine> i'll update the wiki for next meeting as well as the launchpad team for catalan
<gsilvapt> ok, thanks kenvandine
<kenvandine> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | <wxl> be nice
<meetingology> Meeting ended Mon Dec 10 20:31:44 2018 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2018/ubuntu-meeting.2018-12-10-20.02.moin.txt
#ubuntu-meeting 2018-12-11
<doko> jdstrand, cyphermox, jamespage, cpaelzer: MIR meeting?
 * jdstrand is here
<doko> yaml-cpp has a pending security review
<cyphermox> yep
<cpaelzer> arr
<cpaelzer> here I am
<doko> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/cpdb-libs/+bug/1747759 -> I'll need to follow-up
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1747759 in cpdb-libs (Ubuntu) "[MIR] cpdb-libs" [High,Incomplete]
<cpaelzer> Checking new MIRs
<cpaelzer> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/placement/+bug/1805691
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1805691 in placement (Ubuntu) "[MIR] placement" [Undecided,New]
<cpaelzer> seems to have passed new queue, and now shows up
<cpaelzer> is that on jamespage or anyone else there still, or what would be the next step there
<cpaelzer> coreycb: FYI ^^
<cpaelzer> seems to be nova (already in main) split out
<cpaelzer> how are such cases usually handled?
<doko> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/xdg-desktop-portal-gtk/+bug/1750069
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1750069 in xdg-desktop-portal-gtk (Ubuntu Bionic) "[MIR] xdg-desktop-portal-gtk" [Undecided,New]
<doko> how is this handled by security, jdstrand?
<coreycb> cpaelzer: yes that's the case. placement has been split from nova and seeded.
<doko> jdstrand: ^^^?
<cpaelzer> coreycb: old nova had only nova-placement-api
<cpaelzer> how does that relate dto the full placement package that appears now?
<coreycb> cpaelzer: that's it, the API has moved out of tree. i've not done a full diff on the code but should. also I don't think the nova code has been dropped yet.
<coreycb> cpaelzer: but it's still a dev release so they are testing upstream.
<cpaelzer> 2:19.0.0~b1~git2018120609.c9dca64fa6-0ubuntu1 the latest nova at least has it still
<cpaelzer> e.g. ./nova/conf/placement.py ~==  ./placement/conf/placement.py
<cpaelzer> coreycb: I haven't checked the files build, but wouldn't that need a massive set of breaks/replaces?
<cpaelzer> to avoid conflicts on upgrades?
<cpaelzer> hmm
<cpaelzer> it seems it is all namespaced
<cpaelzer> https://launchpadlibrarian.net/400344356/buildlog_ubuntu-disco-amd64.placement_0.0.1~git2018112616.3ccbacfc-0ubuntu1_BUILDING.txt.gz
<cpaelzer> https://launchpadlibrarian.net/400622842/buildlog_ubuntu-disco-amd64.nova_2%3A19.0.0~b1~git2018120609.c9dca64fa6-0ubuntu1_BUILDING.txt.gz
<coreycb> cpaelzer: yes but I've not added breaks/replaces since it hasn't been removed from nova. wasn't sure how to handle the transition period.
<cpaelzer> nova has the same bits still it seems, but with nova-* in front of it
<cpaelzer> coreycb: no-duplication is usually a MIR rule
<cpaelzer> coreycb: when will that be moved/removed from nova?
<coreycb> cpaelzer: I can double check with upstream to see what the removal plans are
<cpaelzer> yeah, please update that on the bug once known
<cpaelzer> and that can give jdstrand and folks some time to respond on how such broken out code that was rviewed before would be handled security-wise
<jdstrand> doko: sorry, got pulled aside
 * jdstrand reads
<cpaelzer> coreycb: I updated the bug
<jdstrand> yaml-cpp is not in our trello lane
 * jdstrand adds it
<cpaelzer> jdstrand: also upadted the bug for you as I assumed you were unavailable
<cpaelzer> "upadted" is the new "updated" btw
<jdstrand> doko: wrt https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/xdg-desktop-portal-gtk/+bug/1750069, what is the question? sarnold commented in it yesterday
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1750069 in xdg-desktop-portal-gtk (Ubuntu Bionic) "[MIR] xdg-desktop-portal-gtk" [Undecided,New]
<doko> jdstrand: so that's up to -desktop?
<jdstrand> doko: yeah
<doko> ok
<jdstrand> doko: I commented in the bug
<jdstrand> cpaelzer: as for https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/placement/+bug/1805691, normally we say something along the lines of "this was already supported before it was split out, so no need redoing a security review". there is only the standard packaging checks for the MIR imho
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1805691 in placement (Ubuntu) "[MIR] placement" [Undecided,Incomplete]
<cpaelzer> ok thanks jdstrand
 * jdstrand comments
<cpaelzer> thanks
<didrocks> (joined, but in desktop team meeting)
<jdstrand> cpaelzer: it is good to raise it to us though
<cpaelzer> so I think once coreycb is back with how this will be de-duplcated it might be approved
<cpaelzer> I didn#t see other big show stoppers
<doko> ok, nothing, should we finish?
<doko> that took way too long
<didrocks> nothing from me, I only have vulkan-loader left on my list, dlna stack is dealt with
<cpaelzer> nothing new to me, except still being afraid of the mailman3 dependency list
<cpaelzer> doko: I guess the silence is a yes, I guess we can consider todays meeting done
 * cpaelzer realizes he guesses too much
<didrocks> ;)
<doko> ok, done
#ubuntu-meeting 2018-12-13
<rbalint> o/
<cyphermox> o/
<cyphermox> we won't see xnox today I think
 * vorlon waves
<vorlon> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Thu Dec 13 16:02:40 2018 UTC.  The chair is vorlon. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
<cyphermox> oh, we do have a vorlon to chair the meeting :)
<sil2100> o/
<juliank>  /o\
<vorlon> [TOPIC] Lightning round
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Lightning round
<vorlon> $ echo $(shuf -e vorlon bdmurray xnox tdaitx doko sil2100 rbalint infinity cyphermox mwhudson juliank)
<vorlon> bdmurray infinity mwhudson tdaitx xnox sil2100 vorlon doko rbalint juliank cyphermox
<vorlon> bdmurray_:
<doko> that's a short list ...
 * sil2100 pokes bdmurray_ 
<bdmurray> sorry, I'm here
<bdmurray> extensive testing of ubuntu-release-upgrader and PPAs
<bdmurray> fixed software-properties-gtk crash LP: #1807373
<bdmurray> uploaded fix for u-r-u using a negative number for free space needed LP: #1786484
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1807373 in software-properties (Ubuntu) "/usr/bin/software-properties-gtk:AttributeError:on_driver_selection_changed" [High,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1807373
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1786484 in ubuntu-release-upgrader (Ubuntu) "free space need for /usr could be negative which is wrong" [High,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1786484
<bdmurray> u-r-u fixed more typos re RELEASE_UPRADER_ALLOW_THIRD_PARTY
<bdmurray> modified u-r-u to check and see if a sources.list entry provides the release
<bdmurray>  being upgraded to (LP: #1807043) helps with PPA upgrades
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1807043 in ubuntu-release-upgrader (Ubuntu) "when rewriting sources.list ubuntu-release-upgrader doesn't check to see if new release is available" [Medium,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1807043
<bdmurray> do-release-upgrade: add a parameter to allow third party mirrors and
<bdmurray>  repositories, additionally pass along the environmental variable
<bdmurray>  RELEASE_UPGRADER_ALLOW_THIRD_PARTY via pkexec and sudo. (LP: #1807032)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1807032 in ubuntu-release-upgrader (Ubuntu) "RELEASE_UPGRADER_ALLOW_THIRD_PARTY env variable not passed to dist-upgrader tarball" [High,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1807032
<bdmurray> DistUpgrade/DistUpgradeCache.py: improve messaging regarding failures to
<bdmurray>  calculate the upgrade and suggest using ppa-purge if PPAs are an issue.
<bdmurray> DistUpgrade/DistUpgradeCache.py: in the event there is a failure to
<bdmurray>  calculate the upgrade provide information about the log files in
<bdmurray>  /var/log/dist-upgrade. (LP: #1771387)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1771387 in ubuntu-release-upgrader (Ubuntu) "Could not calculate upgrade should suggest log location" [Medium,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1771387
<bdmurray> started work on migration of ET code from pycassa to python-cassandra
<bdmurray> â done
<bdmurray> tdaitx:
<tdaitx> * openjdk-11 bionic migration
<tdaitx>   - more local builds to help verify build order, stuff that can't be build directly with openjdk-11, how (and if) these rebuilds affect the packages that build depends on the bootstrapped ones
<tdaitx>   - groovy FTBFS with gradle 4.4 since September, trying to figure out why (Debian bug #909909)
<tdaitx>   - need to get jtreg and testng backported in the security pocket as well (as openjdk builds are done using only -security)
<tdaitx> * openjdk-11 update with autopkgtests, fixed disk usage during build
<ubottu> Debian bug 909909 in src:groovy "groovy FTBFS" [Serious,Open] http://bugs.debian.org/909909
<tdaitx>   - testsuite was keeping test data around, no more
<tdaitx>   - cleared up the build dir before running tests
<tdaitx> Other:
<tdaitx> - almost done with my classes and rehearsals
<tdaitx> - booking flights to Fosdem (Feb 2-3) and Malta sprint
<tdaitx> - planning to be in EU for 6 weeks: taking some days off and working shorter days for a bunch of it
<tdaitx> (done)
<sil2100> No xnox so I go now
<doko> it's 11pm for xnox, so maybe he's not here
<sil2100> - A very short week - sprint last week + 2 days of swap days
<sil2100> - A few kernel SRU reviews
<sil2100> - SRU reviews and releases
<sil2100> - core18 PR reviews for cloud-init addition
<sil2100> - Work on releasing some bits of the PPA packages for pi3 into the archive
<sil2100> - Releasing ubuntu-image hotfix for xenial for the sudo dependency addition
<sil2100> - Investigating the oversized linux-raspi2 vmlinuz on arm64
<sil2100> (done)
<vorlon>  * remotely attending Ubuntu Core sprint in Cape Town last week, so time shifted
<vorlon>  * code reviews for livecd-rootfs, ubuntu-cdimage, debian-cd (HWE kernel support for subiquity, et al)
<vorlon>  * discussions around Secure Boot and TPM
<vorlon>  * misc spec reviewing and discussion
<vorlon>  * EOY for me tomorrow, see you all next year!
<vorlon> (done)
<doko> - had Wed/Thu half days off
<doko> - python 3.6.8 and 3.7.2 release candidates
<doko> - more preparation of test rebuilds
<doko> - updated GCC 9 test packages, investigated armhf ftbfs
<doko> - addressed two MIRs
<doko> (done)
<rbalint> (short week)
<rbalint> * unattended-upgrades triggered LP: #1458204 in xenial, SRU-d update-notifier fix there
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1458204 in linux (Ubuntu) "removing kernels should not require a restart afterward" [Low,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1458204
<rbalint> * released unattended-upgrades 1.9 and sru-d LP: #1806487
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1806487 in unattended-upgrades (Ubuntu) "[regression] Crashing with dbus.exceptions.DBusException when logind can't be started (yet)" [Critical,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1806487
<rbalint> * backported wireshark 2.6.5 for *-security
<rbalint> * migrated lp:livecd-rootfs to git
<rbalint> * fixed migration script to use https:// Vcs-Git urls
<rbalint> * discussed marking migrated bzr repositories read-only on launchpad with the lp team, but this is not possible at the moment and replacing the tree with a placeholder file containing the new url seems to be the established best practice
<rbalint> * booking flights for the Malta sprint
<rbalint> (done)
<juliank> * short week (off last friday, half of wednesday too)
<juliank> * Changing $PATH for apt installs
<juliank> * Re-implement livecd-rootfs' minimize-manual as  `apt-mark minimize-manual`  (https://salsa.debian.org/apt-team/apt/merge_requests/39)
<juliank> * booked flights
<juliank> * investigated resolved restarts with ifupdown/dhclient (bug 1805183)
<ubottu> bug 1805183 in systemd (Ubuntu) "systemd-resolved constantly restarts on Bionic upgraded from Xenial" [Low,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1805183
<juliank> * trying to reproduce gnome-music/gnutl28 crash (bug 1804673)
<ubottu> bug 1804673 in gnutls28 (Ubuntu Disco) "gnutls causes gnome-music segmentation fault" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1804673
<juliank> * off tomorrow, only around Mon/Tue next week
<juliank> (done)
<cyphermox> - netplan preparing 1.0 release
<cyphermox>   - merging 802.1x support
<cyphermox>   - merged use-routes, route-metric, MTU support
<cyphermox>   - various test refactoring
<cyphermox>   - finished tunnel support
<cyphermox> - finishing whitepaper on SecureBoot PKI
<cyphermox> - grub breadcrumbs / check-signatures work
<cyphermox> - on vacation for Christmas starting next week, back in early Jan
<cyphermox> (done)
<bdmurray> vorlon: I think that's everyone
<vorlon> [TOPIC] Bugs
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Bugs
<bdmurray> Pretty quiet but I think bug 1773637 is worth investigating.
<ubottu> bug 1773637 in ubuntu-release-upgrader (Ubuntu) "Distribution upgrade to 18.04: used nvidia display driver is commented out" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1773637
<bdmurray> So yeah, I'll make a card for that
<vorlon> huh ok, yes please
<bdmurray> And I'll have a look at it as a part of u-r-u SRU behemoth
<vorlon> bdmurray: anything else, then?
<bdmurray> vorlon: nope
<vorlon> [TOPIC] AOB
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: AOB
<vorlon> ok, anything else more broadly?
<cyphermox> merry christmas and all of that in advance?
<gaughen> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-archive/proposed-migration/disco/update_excuses_by_team.html
<vorlon> [LINK] http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-archive/proposed-migration/disco/update_excuses_by_team.html#foundations-bugs
<rbalint> i'm on ruby-rmagick and twisted
<rbalint> rebuild of ruby-rmagick fixes the test, looks like a hidden abi break in imagemagick which i'm investigating
<rbalint> twisted did not pass for long but is passing now in sid thus it should be fixable in dependencies
<tdaitx> as for openjdk-8, its tests are failing due to a time out since it takes a while to run the 4 testsuites
<tdaitx> I have previously requested openjdk-8 and openjdk-11 to be added to the big_packages list
<tdaitx> this is the merge request: https://code.launchpad.net/~tdaitx/autopkgtest-cloud/+git/autopkgtest-cloud/+merge/358970
<vorlon> tdaitx: thanks, I'll look at this
<tdaitx> vorlon: thanks!
<vorlon> seems like we're done here
<vorlon> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | <wxl> be nice
<meetingology> Meeting ended Thu Dec 13 16:44:51 2018 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2018/ubuntu-meeting.2018-12-13-16.02.moin.txt
<vorlon> thanks, all
<sil2100> o/
#ubuntu-meeting 2019-12-09
<JHOSMAN> Hello, today have meeting?
<MajB> I am waiting for the LoCo council meeting
<pavlos> me too
<MajB> I am not even sure that there are any active members of the LoCo council.  At least none aare listed in Launchpad.
<JHOSMAN> :(
<MajB> There are two start times listed for the LoCo meeting, 1900 UTC and 2000 UTC.  The later is their normal meeting time.
<MajB> Well, the Ubuntu Arizona Team regrets that there was no one from the LoCo Council to approve our application for re-verification.  pavlos and MajB were here from the Arizona Team.
<JHOSMAN> And Colombian Team
<Odd_Bloke> Wimpress: kenvandine: popey: Do any of you know what's going on with this LoCo meeting that people are hoping will happen?
<MajB> It is scheduled on their agenda page and the fridge calendar.  The Colombian Team and the Arizona Team have been waiting first for the November meeting which did not happen and now for the December meeting.
<popey> Odd_Bloke: sorry, I do not.
<sarnold> it feels like we've seen this "how come no one is here for the loco meeting" thing come up quite often
<sarnold> is this a zombie meeting that ought to be culled entirely?
<sarnold> well, not often, since it's monthly-ish, but certainly this isn't the first time I've seen folks walk away dissapointed from no one showing up for a meeting
<JHOSMAN> popey Do you know of any person who has sufficient permits to approve us as LoCo Team, while the council is reorganized again?
<popey> I do not, sorry.
<Odd_Bloke> JHOSMAN: MajB: I've asked around, and it sounds like the appropriate escalation path is to the community council: https://discourse.ubuntu.com/t/what-is-the-ubuntu-community-council/706
<MajB> Thank you Odd_Bloke.  However, there is only one current member and that is Mark Shuttleworth who is supposed to nominate the members which are then voted on by the membership.  So for the time being there is no Community Council.
<Odd_Bloke> MajB: Yep, I'm not 100% sure how that ended up happening, but that is unfortunately the case.  I wish I had a better answer for you, but I think sending mail to the community council email address is still your best bet for forward motion.
<JHOSMAN> MajB please copy to me email: jhosman@ubuntu.com
<MajB> Will do
<JHOSMAN> Thanks! :)
#ubuntu-meeting 2019-12-10
<didrocks> I will probably skip the MIR meeting today. I have nothing special to report.
<joeubuntu> Here for the MIR meeting.
<doko> hi
<doko> cpaelzer, jamespage, cyphermox ?
<doko> starting with https://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-archive/component-mismatches-proposed.svg
<jamespage> o/
<doko> jamespage: could you file issues for nova/netcat?
<doko> cpaelzer: cloud-init/ifupdown2
<cpaelzer> here
<doko> cpaelzer: logcheck/esmtp
<doko> didrocks: xorg/xterm, libnotify/sugar,
<cpaelzer> for cloud-init I'll start with a cloud-init bug if they really want this
<cpaelzer> but I'll file the others as placeholders pointing to that one - to be found by AAs
<doko> which MIRs are pending reviews?
<cpaelzer> nut sure if we want esmtp for logcheck
<cpaelzer> that came in via a sync
<cpaelzer> we'll sort it out if we drop the dependency instead of a MIR
<jamespage> doko: done for nova/netcat - I don't think its even needed
<doko> feel free to drop it instead
<cpaelzer> doko: how did cloud-init get that report?
<cpaelzer> the one in focal doesn't have a ifupdown2 dependency
<cpaelzer> and that is the same version SRUed to Xenial-Eoan
<doko> cpaelzer: https://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-archive/component-mismatches-proposed.txt
<doko> Provides: ifupdown
<cpaelzer> doko: ah now I see, cloud init has "netplan.io | ifupdown"
<cpaelzer> and netplan is in main
<cpaelzer> how do we usually handle those cases?
<cpaelzer> it has a valid package in main fulfilling that dependency in every release
<cpaelzer> up to Disco it was ifupdown and since bionic it is netplan
<cpaelzer> and netplan is listed first
<cpaelzer> so the problem is that the alternate dependency puts it on the component mismatches
<cpaelzer> that also explains how it could already migrate into the -release pocket
<cpaelzer> can we just ignore it then, any guidance on what cloud-init is supposed to do to avoid being listed there?
<cpaelzer> the package is tried to be the same across releases
<doko> cpaelzer: netplan.io is seeded in eoan, but not anymore in focal?
<cpaelzer> netplan.io is seeded from bionic onwards
<cpaelzer> and ifupdown from the dawn of time up until disco
<doko> maybe component-mismatches gets confused by the provides
<cpaelzer> yeah I'd think so
<doko> add it to extra-excludes?
<cpaelzer> if that is the common solution, I can open an MP
<cpaelzer> and logcheck is the same case - it depends on 'mail-transport-agent' which has a provides in many places
<cpaelzer> esmtp is one of them
<cpaelzer> but so is e.g. postfix
<cpaelzer> doko: I can add extra excludes for them if you tell me that is the way to resolve that
<cpaelzer> doko: but that leaves my confort zone, so I want you to tell me it is the right way :-)
 * didrocks will ask in the desktop meeting
<doko> I'll check with colin maybe
<cpaelzer> doko: ok, let me know once you know the path that I should let these server packages take then
<doko> I didn't check before the meeting, is any existing MIR missing review?
<cpaelzer> not from us
<doko> joeubuntu: any updates for security reviews?
<joeubuntu> doko -  6 in progress the remainder in queue, we meet 2x a month with server/foundations to review priority and progress. a few more sec engineers are taking on MIRs to get the queue down again.
<doko> anything else for today?
<doko> do we want a meeting next week, or skip until January?
<didrocks> I'm on holidays starting tomorrow
<doko> there doesn't seem to be much interest ... let's skip
<doko> and finish for today
<didrocks> thx :)
<cyphermox> o/ sorry
<cyphermox> why is cloud-init depending on ifupdown2? that's sounds very very wrong
<Odd_Bloke> cyphermox: cloud-init depends on `netplan.io | ifupdown` and ifupdown2 provides ifupdown.
<cyphermox> *sigh*
<cyphermox> I posit that's probably wrong
<Odd_Bloke> "that"?
<cyphermox> ifupdown2 providing ifupdown
<cyphermox> it's a full rewrite, I don't know that it's quite the same
<cyphermox> anyway, the story is I doubt we really want to MIR ifupdown2
<Odd_Bloke> I think we're all in agreement there. :p
<cyphermox> yup ;)
<cpaelzer> dodk: if possibel please answer on bug 1855557 once you ahve the answer hwo to handle the component-mismatches due to provides
<ubottu> bug 1855557 in cloud-init (Ubuntu) "please drop ifupdown depedency" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1855557
<Odd_Bloke> cpaelzer: Were you trying to ping Matthias?  Because... you didn't. ;)
<xnox> cyphermox:  Odd_Bloke: we have removed i386 arch specific packages, yet cloud-init and ifupdown2 are arch:all and it is a bug that they are (a) published in i386 archive (b) used by components missmatches to promote things
<xnox> cpaelzer:  my bug report was slightly tigential to the components missmatches being buggy.
<xnox> cpaelzer:  Odd_Bloke: as a product, Ubuntu, no longer supports ifupdown and thus on Ubuntu platform cloud-init should not allow any but netplan.io network rendering.
#ubuntu-meeting 2019-12-11
<cyphermox> well, we also never supported ifupdown2, and I don't think there is any potential for us to.
<doko> I added ifupdown2 to extra-excludes in the seeds, but that didn't help
<xnox> that aslo
<doko> oslo is unrelated
<xnox> =)
 * xnox giggles
#ubuntu-meeting 2019-12-12
<juliank> o/
<bdmurray> o/
 * bdmurray is running late
<rbalint> o/
<sil2100> o/
<cyphermox> o/
<rbalint> bdmurray, 22 seconds late is not the end of the world :-)
<bdmurray> #startmeeting Weekly Ubuntu Foundations team
<meetingology> Meeting started Thu Dec 12 16:02:05 2019 UTC.  The chair is bdmurray. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | <wxl> be nice | Weekly Ubuntu Foundations team Meeting | Current topic:
<bdmurray> #topic Lightning rounds
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | <wxl> be nice | Weekly Ubuntu Foundations team Meeting | Current topic: Lightning rounds
<bdmurray> echo $(shuf -e vorlon bdmurray xnox tdaitx doko sil2100 rbalint infinity cyphermox mwhudson juliank waveform)
<bdmurray> mwhudson cyphermox bdmurray infinity waveform doko vorlon tdaitx rbalint juliank xnox sil2100
<cyphermox> winnitude!
<bdmurray> cyphermox:
<cyphermox> MIR reviews
<cyphermox> updating doc for UEFI/ SecureBoot for juliank's benefit
<cyphermox> I have a hangout with sil2100 later for netplan hand-off
<cyphermox> discussing shim review process with potential contributors
<cyphermox> other hand-offy things prior to my departure
<cyphermox> netplan NM plugin still in -progress by progressing nicely
<cyphermox> (done)
<juliank> +1
<bdmurray> I've got nothing to report
<bdmurray> infinity is at a conference
<bdmurray> waveform:
<waveform> * Finished LP: #1311056
<waveform> * Answering lots of forum posts and questions about the Eoan re-spin
<waveform> * Added one issue to release notes with workaround (attached hardware interfering with serial console, preventing boot)
<waveform> * Started work on Bionic Pi 4 support; investigating whether the u-boot script changes that broke in Eoan can be added back in safely
<waveform> * Work on merging core and classic boot scripts
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1311056 in python-apt (Ubuntu) "apt-add-repository adds duplicate commented/disabled source lines" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1311056
<waveform> * Brief experiment with ZFS on Pi (it works ...?)
<waveform> (done)
<bdmurray> doko:
<doko> gcc-10 packages are available in a frist version now, native and cross
<doko> looked at component mismatches, and python2 getting pulled into main again, maybe some i386 breajage?
<doko> some MIR work
<doko> (done)
<bdmurray> vorlon:
<vorlon> bdmurray: skip? need another minute
<bdmurray> tdaitx:
<tdaitx> * apport O_PATH fix (LP: #1851806)
<tdaitx>   - backported LP: #1854237 to xenial, bionic, disco, eoan
<tdaitx>   - found and fixed some issues
<tdaitx>   - found more issues with the previous security update regarding python2 compatibility
<tdaitx>   - got autopkgtest to run using python2, but too many stuff fails for it to be useful right now; some bits of code are not python2 compatible; should we improve this so future sru's are python2 compatible?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1851806 in apport (Ubuntu) "'module' object has no attribute 'O_PATH'" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1851806
<tdaitx>   - testing alternatives but seems there's no "secure" way to open() /proc/pid in python2
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1854237 in apport (Ubuntu Eoan) "autopkgtests fail after security fixes" [High,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1854237
<tdaitx> * setup environment to build adoptopenjdk with debug and extra verbosity (currently fails to build) to compare libjawt.so config/flags
<tdaitx> Other:
<tdaitx> - setting up travel for the sprint
<tdaitx> (done)
<tdaitx> rbalint: go! =)
<rbalint> * uploaded vmdk-stream-converter to unstable finally
<rbalint> * uploads via Debian: wireshark 3.0.7-1
<rbalint> * fixed LP: #1855520 with a revert, then properly (please accept the SRUs)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1855520 in wslu (Ubuntu) "Issue with wsl-integration.sh script causing slow start of Ubuntu shell with WSL2" [High,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1855520
<rbalint> * all uploads & srus to show motd from /etc/profile.d when show-motd is installed
<rbalint> * merged systemd 244-3, tests tests are running under bileto ticket 3801
<rbalint> * fixed and SRU-d (please accept it): LP: #1855522
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1855522 in landscape-client (Ubuntu Eoan) "/etc/update-motd.d/50-landscape-sysinfo shows error in WSL" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1855522
<rbalint> * several rounds of upstream binutils code reviews for LP: #1843479
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1843479 in gzip (Ubuntu) "gzip in Ubuntu Eoan results in Exec format error on WSL1" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1843479
<rbalint> (done)
<bdmurray> juliank:
<vorlon> bdmurray: ready now
<juliank> * ubiquity: When removing packages [for minimal install], also remove automatically installed packages that are no longer required (LP: #1798992)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1798992 in ubiquity (Ubuntu Focal) "Fresh minimal desktop installation has packages pending autoremoval, pending updates" [High,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1798992
<juliank> * apt: fix segmentation fault when passing empty argument to 'satisfy'
<juliank> * python-apt 1.9.1 (soon 1.9.2):
<juliank>   - merged waveform's "Don't duplicate disabled sources during add()" (LP: #1311056)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1311056 in python-apt (Ubuntu) "apt-add-repository adds duplicate commented/disabled source lines" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1311056
<juliank>   - migration from md5 to HashStringList (debian bug 944696)
<ubottu> Debian bug 944696 in python-apt "python-apt: relies on MD5 internally to download packages" [Serious,Fixed] http://bugs.debian.org/944696
<juliank>   - migration to PY_SSIZE_T_CLEAN (debian bug 944091)
<ubottu> Debian bug 944091 in src:python-apt "deprecation warnings with 3.8 in the autopkg tests" [Serious,Fixed] http://bugs.debian.org/944091
<juliank>   - fix for the HashStringList migration (debian bug 946597)
<ubottu> Debian bug 946597 in python-apt "python-apt: security regression in 1.9.1" [Critical,Open] http://bugs.debian.org/946597
<juliank> * initial look at the poppler thing I botched up in eoan (LP: #1849773)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1849773 in evince (Ubuntu) "/usr/bin/evince:11:strstr:TextSelectionPainter::hasGlyphLessFont:TextSelectionPainter::endPage:TextPage::drawSelection:poppler_page_render_selection" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1849773
<juliank> * preparing some stuff
<juliank> (done)
<bdmurray> vorlon:
<vorlon>  * partially killing architectures is tedious
<vorlon>  * found and worked around a bug in the germinate handling that was wrongly pruning build-deps that we still needed
<vorlon>  * in response to the above ballooning the package set again, pruned opencv, gdcm, etc by changing gst-plugins-bad1.0 to not build a binary on i386 that isn't required for us
<vorlon>  * still eyeing the numpy package being in the set and considering more source changes to get rid of it
<vorlon>  * working through the list of autopkgtest regressions on i386 now that we're cross-testing (total test count reduced from 311 to 299 after the last germinate change)
<vorlon>  * discussions around handling of /usr/bin/python in 20.04
<vorlon> (done)
<bdmurray> xnox:
<xnox> 12th of December
<xnox> Proposed migration:
<xnox> Sheparded autopkgtest regressions blocking glibc and other uploads
<xnox> Doing a few removals in debian to drop python2 things
<xnox> This should make boost migratable soon* (debian removals pending before end of year)
<xnox> Working on subiquity encryption UX with mwhudson
<xnox> Working with snapd team on uc20 firstboot install
<xnox> Working with desktopy people on oem stuff
<xnox> done
<sil2100> - SRU reviews and releases
<sil2100>   * Work on getting the toolchain SRUs reviewed and accepted as well
<sil2100> - Finished manifest differ, deployed it on a canonistack instance
<sil2100> - Finalizing 19.10.1 raspi stuff
<sil2100> - Work on enabling uc20 daily image builds, changes to livecd-rootfs and cdimage
<sil2100>   * A bit back and forth with snapd
<sil2100>   * Now still a small u-i change is needed to get the builds going
<sil2100> - Some digging into netplan
<sil2100> - Meeting with Iain about the new autopkgtest deployment plan
<sil2100> (done)
<bdmurray> #topic Release incoming bugs
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | <wxl> be nice | Weekly Ubuntu Foundations team Meeting | Current topic: Release incoming bugs
<bdmurray> link http://reqorts.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/rls-mgr/rls-ff-incoming-bug-tasks.html#foundations-bugs
<bdmurray> bug 1856059 is very new
<ubottu> bug 1856059 in jellyfish (Ubuntu) "jellyfish: please remove arm64, ppc64el binaries" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1856059
<vorlon> that doesn't seem like it belongs on ff-incoming
<vorlon> make sure ubuntu-archive is subscribed, move on?
<bdmurray> Do we really need to card this or can somebody JFDI it?
<bdmurray> ubuntu-archive is subscribed
<bdmurray> I'll untag it
<bdmurray> rls-ee is empty
<bdmurray> rls-bb has nothing new
<bdmurray> #topic Team proposed-migration report
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | <wxl> be nice | Weekly Ubuntu Foundations team Meeting | Current topic: Team proposed-migration report
<xnox> urgh
<bdmurray> https://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-archive/proposed-migration/update_excuses_by_team.html#foundations-bugs
<cyphermox> fwiw cyrus-imapd will probably disappear shortly, I have just been looking at it
<cyphermox> claiming libmoo-perl
<vorlon> I will work on glibc with xnox
<doko> I'll pick python-packaging,
<vorlon> cyphermox for libmoo-perl (really cyrus-imapd)
<bdmurray> I'll take apport
<vorlon> bdmurray gets apport
<vorlon> waveform: can you look at polib?
<cyphermox> I'll take gawk given that it's cyrus-imapd
<rbalint> i take curl
<waveform> vorlon, okay
<bdmurray> lets hold on there and start from the top
<bdmurray> you still get what you took though
<vorlon> doko: can you also take python-fixtures?
<juliank> oh, the apt blocked by ... stuff I guess I can do some retries
<tdaitx> bdmurray: why is apport even blocking stuff? update excuses points to 2.20.11-0ubuntu9 but we have 2.20.11-0ubuntu13 on focal for a while now
<vorlon> if a package is a 'candidate' but stuck, look at https://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-archive/proposed-migration/update_output.txt
<doko> vorlon: no, this is all autopilot
<vorlon> doko: and because of that you can't look at it?
<vorlon> I'll take python-testtools
<doko> that's autopilot as well
<vorlon> doko: so?
<vorlon> it still needs tdoing
<doko> vorlon: do you work on autopilot removal?
<juliank> I retried the python-apt triggered failures, seems they should have been fixed in the meantime
<vorlon> doko: two archive admins are better than one for working on this
<tdaitx> bdmurray: I requested autopktest retrys for apt and gdb so new apport will unblock them
<vorlon> I expect it'll take several rounds
<bdmurray> tdaitx: steal my work!
<vorlon> doko: I'll let you have python-fixtures and python-testtools then
<juliank> tdaitx: me too, for apt
<vorlon> gawk, curl are claimed
<vorlon> tdaitx: can you look at cmake?
<juliank> makes me wonder if we have a fix for dropping duplicate requests in autopkgtest queue yet
<tdaitx> vorlon: yeah
<vorlon> juliank: psycopg2?
<sil2100> juliank: no, Simon prepped a branch one time, I requested changes and I don't think it moved since then
<doko> isn't that better handled by server team, psycopg2?
<juliank> it would be, I guess
<vorlon> it's listed as a foundations package
<juliank> we can retry
<juliank> let me try that
<vorlon> juliank: ok you're on point for that
<vorlon> apport/gdb is taken by bdmurray
<vorlon> systemd/libseccomp: sil2100 ?
<vorlon> cyphermox: can you also look at sudo? (cyrus-imapd, but also mediawiki)
<rbalint> i take libseccomp
<sil2100> vorlon: ok o/
<rbalint> i think systemd 244 fixed it
<vorlon> sil2100: ah, rbalint is fighting you for it
<vorlon> sil2100: you can have libwww-perl isntead
<sil2100> vorlon: aww, ok, fine as well ;)
<sil2100> Let me card it then
<tdaitx> so, cmake being blocked by ros-robot-state-publisher seems to be done, seb got it to pass 2 hours ago
<vorlon> juliank: are you taking apt?
<cyphermox> vorlon: ack, sudo
<juliank> vorlon: Yeah
<vorlon> ok
<vorlon> netcat-openbsd: waveform: ?
<juliank> vorlon: Those were temporary failures I think, so I just retried them too :)
<waveform> vorlon, I can take a look
<vorlon> doko: can you also take requests, or are you full?
<vorlon> tdaitx: libdate-manip-perl
<doko> I don't want to commit to that, but again, the oslo stuff is openstack ...
<tdaitx> vorlon: ack
<juliank> oh, if only we could grep all failures for postgres 11 and retry them
<vorlon> anyone think they need more for this week?
<vorlon> otherwise I would stop there
<vorlon> juliank: download the artifacts tarballs and look for postgres?
<rbalint> +1 for stopping :-)
<doko> I'll look at python-meshio
<juliank> well, yes it'd work
<doko> vorlon: what about the packages with missing i386 builds, like binutils?
<vorlon> doko: binutils should not be missing any i386 builds, it's in the whitelist
<vorlon> what exactly are you referring to?
<doko> ahh, no, failing atopkg test
<xnox> can we remove packages from release, and allow new version to be stuck in proposed? ie. some debian packages are like that, due to e.g. automatic removal from testing
<vorlon> xnox: demoting to proposed, instead of removing from proposed and release, has a non-negligible cost of clogging up proposed-migration reports
<doko> if you can convince rm to override autopkg tests too ...
<vorlon> doko: yes, I had overridden binutils autopkgtest for the version in release, I'll do the proposed version now as well
<xnox> vorlon:  ack
<vorlon> I think we're done with this topic
<vorlon> bdmurray: ?
<bdmurray> #topic AOB
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | <wxl> be nice | Weekly Ubuntu Foundations team Meeting | Current topic: AOB
<bdmurray> Anybody?
<vorlon> nothing here
<vorlon> I won't be at the next meeting, it's past my EOY :)
<bdmurray> Okay then. Thanks everybody!
<sil2100> Thanks!
<tdaitx> thanks!
<bdmurray> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | <wxl> be nice
<meetingology> Meeting ended Thu Dec 12 16:40:41 2019 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2019/ubuntu-meeting.2019-12-12-16.02.moin.txt
<rbalint> o/
