#ubuntu-artwork 2006-04-24
<lapo> hi
#ubuntu-artwork 2006-04-25
<wftl> Hello, oh quiet group.
<wftl> Is the artwork in the latest Ubuntu stores (the one that says "Ubuntu Dapper Beta") basically the final artwork.
<wftl> I'm wrapping up my book, "Moving to Ubuntu" and I
<wftl> oops
<wftl> and I'd like to find out if there will be further changes in the artwork.
<wftl> If not, I wonder if it's possible for me to get  a copy of the background, minus the words "Ubuntu Dapper Beta"
<klepas> the artwork you speak of (such as the wallpaper) is not finalised
<wftl> klepas: Thank you. Any idea when? I have about ten days to take the final screenshots.
<wftl> If I can't do it, I can't. I'll work with the window decorations and widgets that are there.
<klepas> i will not return to my workstation and thus the email address I use for my mailing lists for about 8 more days, however I will see if I can contact someone higher up to see if we can get this finalised within the week
<klepas> problem is that the art team does not do the wallpaper
<klepas> a contracted canonical artist does it
<klepas> as with the previous releases
<klepas> wftl: can i have your email address?
<klepas> I'll mail you if i can't catch you online here again
<chiwawa_42> hi
<chiwawa_42> i'd have some feedback to provide about the latest dapper theme
<wsjunior> sup guys.. could u please make the trash actually looks like a trash? some grandmas think its a battery indicator..
<wsjunior> :-p
<wsjunior> cya
<chiwawa_42> wsjunior, that's bit short
<wsjunior> chiwawa_42, :)
<Sp4rKy> hi
<Sp4rKy> what do you think about it ==> http://www.sos-sts.org/temp/plein.png
<chiwawa_42> Sp4rKy, bof, un theme de geek...
<Sp4rKy> ^^
<Sp4rKy> chiwawa_42, you speak french now :)
<chiwawa_42> oops
<Sp4rKy> ^^
<Sp4rKy> i you want speak french , i think you should go to #ubuntu-fr and answer me when i say "vous tes tous mort" ^^
<chiwawa_42> Sp4rKy, already on #ubuntu-fr
<Sp4rKy> i know
<Sp4rKy> but you don't answer whereas you don't sleeping :)
<klepas> anyone awake? :)
<klepas> AndyFitz: pong
<AndyFitz> hiya klepas
<AndyFitz> man today is a a busy day
<klepas> same here
<klepas> spent my first day with dave at solutionsfirst
<klepas> was a lot of fun :)
<AndyFitz> congrats mate  .  howd it go ?
<klepas> pretty cool
<AndyFitz> they treat you right ?
<klepas> tagged along while dave and this other guy from France who is doing his internship here to the WWF offices
<klepas> fixed something with their mail
<klepas> i was designing a website
<klepas> but yea, they treated me alright
<klepas> their graphic artist uses proprietary
<AndyFitz> thats okay . ,  nobodys perfetc  ;-)
<AndyFitz> tell them to semantically sex up their sites ?
<klepas> oh, no
<klepas> sorry
<klepas> will do tomorrow
<klepas> lol
<klepas> i forgot my charger today
<klepas> that sucked
<klepas> ran out of battery power around 3:30
<coz_> hello trying to upload art on to the ubuntu artwork site but keep getting errors that the url is incorrect however it seems to meet all the requirements
<jenda> Hello. Looking for a proffesional artist for a quick (but skill-demanding) top secret job...
<jenda> 
<jenda> aww...
<jenda> It is only ... implanting, let's say, the Ubuntu logo into a photograph.
<jenda> shouldn't be that difficult.
<jenda> But will require shifting the logo into perspective a bit - not too sensitive, as it will be rather small...
<klepas> jenda: what's on your mind?
<jenda> hehe...
<jenda> umm...
<jenda> have you heard what dapper+1 should be called?
<klepas> yes
<klepas> :)
<jenda> Eft...
<jenda> http://www.travelsinbearcountry.com/wildlife/red-eft-006.jpg
<klepas> Edgy Eft, yes :)
<jenda> have a look at thta little thnig... and the spots on it...
<jenda> http://www.travelsinbearcountry.com/wildlife/red_eft_005.jpg
<klepas> nice
<jenda> I started palying with it just now, but I don't know if my skill is good enough for the obvious 'upgrade' of the pretty little creature...
<klepas> if you'd prefer to keep it to yourself for the moment feel free
<jenda> hehe...
<jenda> well, if you want to try it out - do so :) I dunno how good you are at it :) And as this is the free software world... no credit is involved, you know - my idea is yours to have (and I'm sure others have thought of it...)
<klepas> you mean use those images as a base for some other work?
<jenda> yup...
<jenda> come on... 
<jenda> the little circulr spots
<jenda> don't they look sooo much like the human circle?
<jenda> just a little prod here and there...
<klepas> lol
<klepas> mayhaps
<jenda> prodding...
<jenda> but I'm not good at it - and if it were done properly... it would be just perfect...
<klepas> mhh
<klepas> interesting idea
<jenda> I have a first attempt done..
<klepas> jenda: just had a look
<klepas> very cute
<klepas> :)
<klepas> it looks great
<klepas> :)
<jenda> Hehe, thanks :)
<jenda> But if it were done by someone who can really polish it...
<klepas> get yourself a very large image
<klepas> 2000+
<klepas> and then do it
<klepas> :)
<jenda> I couldn't find one...
<klepas> mhh
<klepas> give Garret LeSage a buzz
<klepas> linuxart.com
<klepas> :)
<jenda> ok 
#ubuntu-artwork 2006-04-26
<coz_> hello all
<coz_> has a logo or art work been decided upon for edgy eft?
<klepas> wftl: ping
<klepas> exit
<klepas> ack :P
<klepas> wftl: ping
<lapo> hi
<mpathy> Hi There.. Is there a complete "ubuntu title" out or only the old with no capitals and no numbers?
#ubuntu-artwork 2006-04-27
<klepas> wftl: ping
* netjoined: irc.freenode.net -> brown.freenode.net
<andreasn> hi klepas
<andreasn> nice installer-icon
<klepas> oh, hehe
<klepas> :)
<klepas> is it being used?
<klepas> if so, jimmac deserves the congrats
<andreasn> I thought I saw it in a screenshot somewhere
<klepas> he did it, and i just added the ubuntu logo
<klepas> nice
<andreasn> I know
<andreasn> I fixed a kubuntu-installer
<andreasn> but perhaps I should make it more crystal
<klepas> :)
<andreasn> on the other hand, I'm not on the tango-project, not the crystal-project
#ubuntu-artwork 2006-04-28
<rob> anyone around?
<rob> no?
<lapo> hi
<rob> hi lapo 
<rob> thought I'd pop in and give you guys some heads up
<rob> the doc team is looking at publishing all its guides as hard copies though Lulu, and whist its still being discussed we plan on eventually asking you guys if you would like to design the covers
<rob> we are still putting ideas together though before we bring it to you 'officially'
<rob> would you guys be interested?
<coz_> I would be interested although you don't know me
<rob> do you guys have a mailing list?
<aphorism> mouse cursors anyone?
<sivang> hi all
<Firebird8> woa
<Firebird8> where is everyone
#ubuntu-artwork 2006-04-29
* Firebird8 is away: Tremulous
* Firebird8 is back (gone 00:42:35)
* Firebird8 is away: nity all
<klepas> moin
<lapo> hi
<mdke> hi all.
<mdke> is anyone interested in helping the docteam with those icons I posted to the -art mailing list yesterday?
<andreasn> mdke: hm, what was that again?
<mdke> andreasn, subject was "Some help needed from the Documentation Team"
<andreasn> I'll check it out
<mdke> thanks
<andreasn> those icons at the beginning of chapter 2?
<mdke> well, on page 9 you see 4 of em
<mdke> part 2 of the preface
<andreasn> this reminds me that I promised shaun some new icons for yelp about a year ago... :(
<mdke> you could kill both with one stone
<andreasn> yeah
<mdke> but what we're really after for these pdfs is black and white ones
<andreasn> perhaps some nice stuff can be found in the kde high-contrast theme
<andreasn> and in the gnome high-contrast theme
<andreasn> the name of the kde-package is mono or something like that
<andreasn> need to fix some food now
<andreasn> will you be around later?
<mdke> andreasn, yep
<andreasn> cool
<mdke> i'll stay in here, but in case you don't find me, I'm mdke@ubuntu.com or mdke on here
<andreasn> nice
<Firebird8> lo
* Firebird8 is away: W-ET
<mdke> gah
#ubuntu-artwork 2006-04-30
<Firebird8> lo
* Firebird8 is away: Away
* Firebird8 is back (gone 00:20:23)
* Firebird8 is away: Away
<klepas> quite empty
<lapo> hi
<klepas> moin
<lapo> ciao klepas
<klepas> you're off?
<lapo> uhm?
<klepas> 'ciao'
<klepas> commonly used here to say bye
<klepas> :)
<lapo> nay, ciao is a for of greeting, it works as hi, and bye :-)
<lapo> well in italy at least :-)
<klepas> is that universal, or regional?
<lapo> it is italian
<klepas> as here it is essentially exclussive for bye
<lapo> it is a general greatings, colloquial
<lapo> it derive from venice ancient dialect, it means something like "I'm your slave" actually , you can read it like "hi" and "bye" 
<lapo> If I teach italian to the whole world I could stop wrecking english :-)
<klepas> ;)
<klepas> seems confusing
<lapo> italian is confusing :-)
<klepas> to have such a term being colloquial
<klepas> another language that is quite confusing is Chinese
<lapo> it became coloquial, nobody knows the actuall meaning
#ubuntu-artwork 2007-04-23
<lapo> hi
<darkmatter> morning
<lix> Hi! we want to produce 3000 feisty Fawn CDs for our University. Where is the actual artwork (for the Wallet & CD)?
<lix> can't find it on: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DIYMarketing (there is only dapper drake ver.)
<lix> BTW: the EPS for the wallet on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DIYMarketing is in adobe indesign format!
<lix> :(
<kwwii> lix: it should be appearing soon
<kwwii> and it will be in adobe format as it is a print itme
<kwwii> tem
<kwwii> ahhh
<kwwii> item
<kwwii> nobody in their right mind would do real cmyk work with gimp or inkscape
<lix> kwwii: mhmm. I see. When will it be "out"? We need it asap, because our students are demanding highly for it. Further we don't want to gove out "crappy self-burned" CDs.
<kwwii> lix: I'll try to find out, let you know when/if I do
<lix> kwwii: Oh, please! Thank you.
<lapo> heya kwwii, which are your world domination plans for the next release if you have any?
<kwwii> lapo: working on them as we speak
<kwwii> I think that sometime during/after UDS it will be public
<lapo> kwwii: cool, anything viewable already
<lapo> ah ok
<kwwii> lapo: I am trying to create a total concept for ubuntu and all derivs
<lapo> cool, very needed
<lix> kwwii: cool :)
<kwwii> lix: from what I hear they are working on getting it online as we speak (although I do not know how long it will take)
<lapo> kwwii: if you need my picky bastardness feel free :-)
<kwwii> lapo: hehe, definitely :-)
<elkbuntu> kwwii, you at least get the full 6 months this time :D
<kwwii> elkbuntu: yeah, lucky me!
<elkbuntu> you should be able to do even better stuff with more time ;)
<kwwii> hopefully
<kwwii>  gotta cook lunch for my son, bbl
<kwwii> lix: the pics you want are going online (a jpeg version is already online)
<lix> kwwii: cool! where can i find it?
<kwwii> lix: I think she said she put it up on the DIYMarketing page
<kwwii> lix: in any case, once I have access to the internal server I will put tiffs online (and I could send you them per email or put them on my personal server first)
<lix> kwwii: cool. just seen, that the "circle of friends jpg" is online. what i'll need is the wallett and the image for the CD
<kwwii> cool, let me see what I have received so far, and then I can ask for the other pics from the studio
<kwwii> lix: have you tried ordering the CDs through shipit?
<lix> we want to produce 3'000
<lix> not just "a couple"
<lix> and we need it in a weeks time
<lix> or: asap
<kwwii> right, I'm trying to get them but I guess it will take a day or two to get them from the studio that made them
<kwwii> lix: ok, they are uploading everything they have to a server - I'll go through it and give you what you need (but it might take quite a while until it is all uploaded, perhaps even until tomorrow)
<lix> very cool! thanks a lot
<lix> kwwii: BTW: the CDs are for the university of applied sciences and arts zurich http://hgkz.ch the Eidgenssisch Technische Hochschule Zrich http://ethz.ch and the Polytechnic in Malawi http://www.poly.ac.mw :)
<kwwii> lix: cool, I love switzerland :-)
<lix> kwwii: l8ter :)
<troy_s> kwwii_: You in?
<kwwii_> troy_s: pong
<kwwii_> but not for long, going to bed soon
<troy_s> how be things?
<troy_s> sorry kwwii_:  how be things?
<kwwii_> troy_s: good, I'll be on vacation in a few days while my parents are in town
<troy_s> kwwii_: So I read that you are going to give it another kick at the can to get a 'comprehensive' design strategy -- as we were pushing in Paris.  How is it going?
<troy_s> kwwii_: Have you drafted any documents yet?
<kwwii_> troy_s: yeah, I have started to write some stuff up but nothing done yet
<troy_s> lol
<kwwii_> I was thinking in terms of metaphors and ideas
<troy_s> kwwii_: I suspect it will be met as warmly as the first pass.
<kwwii_> gotta pass that on higher up to get a reaction
<kwwii_> we'll see how well that goes
<troy_s> kwwii_: As a side note, when I tried to integrate motifs, there were some blanket sillyness responses from sab
<troy_s> kwwii_: Based largely on failed execution from previous attempts (namely the Photo issue that arose during Hoary)
<troy_s> kwwii_: And before anyone can even begin to consider motifs / etc... there needs to be a written audience.
<troy_s> kwwii_: Which is where it probably gets sticky.
<kwwii_> troy_s: agreed
<kwwii_> troy_s: to be honest, I wanted to talk to sabdfl about my plans before I announce them so that I can get some kind of sign-off on them before wasting time
<troy_s> kwwii_: He will probably agree right up to the end when something is shown.  That is the likely pattern anyways.
<troy_s> kwwii_: He has some extremely obtuse vantages on motif etc.
<kwwii_> troy_s: well, the UDS in a few weeks will be the right time for me to hit him with this stuff, I think
<kwwii_> I made a list of metaphors and basic design ideas...I'll discuss that with him and see where we can go from there
<troy_s> kwwii_:  There will also be the inevitable barrage of "Dollar Shop Clerks Turned Educated Art and Design Experts" to explain to.
<kwwii_> hehe, you read the color thread as well
<troy_s> kwwii_: Who are the motifs / metaphors aimed at regading audience?
<kwwii_> no wonder I did not respond
<kwwii_> troy_s: from every day computer users to semi-geeks
<troy_s> kwwii_: Too broad to hit.
<kwwii_> no newbies on this list, as I think if the design is good enough they will be drawn in anyway
<troy_s> as the two are polemically opposite in terms of function.
<troy_s> kwwii_: I would reconsider that thought.
<troy_s> kwwii_: In fact, you might find the new folks have completely different draw factors.
<kwwii_> troy_s: when I say semi-geeks I mean people who use their computers every day, just a bit more intensely
<troy_s> kwwii_: Hello!  Everyone uses their bloody computers every day.
<troy_s> kwwii_: Its rather all the rage ;)
<kwwii_> troy_s: yeah, but outside of us having more technical possiblities I am not sure if catching newbies is possible
<kwwii_> lol, you should talk to my wife and all the others I know
<kwwii_> I had to fix two computer "problems" today alone
<troy_s> kwwii_: I would push for it.  It is the ONE most massively growing component of Ubuntu that has the greatest yield.
<troy_s> kwwii_: Not to mention draw factor.  As it is now, we have had three years of design that is rapidly putting us into the bloody 'WindowsXP' design school.
<troy_s> (as frightening as that seems)
<troy_s> lol
<kwwii_> I know that if we talk to sabdfl he will say we need to target the newbies
<kwwii_> but when it comes to changing technical aspects that is almost always impossible
<troy_s> Yeah but he doesn't want to.
<lix> kwwii_: do you think the feisty wallett artwork will be rady for tomorrow?
<kwwii_> and the system itself is simply not ready to take that leap yet
<troy_s> kwwii_: The system itself is already taking the leap whether or not it is ready.
<kwwii_> lix: yes, I have it all now...I only have to decide which stuff we are going to release to the public (I was warned to choose well)
<lix> kwwii_ yeah! cool! thank you!
<kwwii_> lix: they gave me everything that they did...much mor ethan just the wallets and the CD design
<lix> kwwii_: gonna zZzzzz now
<troy_s> kwwii_: Besides, perhaps opinions will change with the much lauded Fedora work release.
<kwwii_> so tomorrow I will definitely give you the two pieces you want
<lix> kwwii_: good job!
<kwwii_> lix: see you tomorrow then
<lix> kwwii_: yeah ;)
<kwwii_> lix: btw...I am on the same time zone as you (if you live in CH)
<kwwii_> troy_s: well, I am thinking along that line anyway
<kwwii_> troy_s: and trying to unify all the derivs in at least some ways
<troy_s> kwwii_: Needless to say, getting to a point of having motifs is probably a starting point -- presenting them would be skipping a rather much needed block of brainstorming.
<kwwii_> so this will hopefully be the first step down the right path
<kwwii_> troy_s: definitely
<kwwii_> until now my first ideas (I'll make several others) was to pick a element for each deriv
<troy_s> kwwii_: Again, it feels so like deja vu.
<kwwii_> so ubuntu is earth, kubuntu is sky, edubuntu is fire, etc
<kwwii_> I realize that this is not that revolutionary, but defining it and finishing it would be (at least for us)
<troy_s> kwwii_: It could backfire if the shit is derivative however.
<lix> kwwii_: yes I know. seen your blog ;)
<troy_s> kwwii_: Although it is harder to get worse than having a dead air of no discussion at all out there regarding the design.
<lix> kwwii_: Gute Nacht :-P
<troy_s> kwwii_: Which is apparently the case with Feisty... perhaps sab will notice that.
<kwwii_> lix: nacht, bis morgen ;-)
<kwwii_> troy_s: yeah, true...but until I have him face to face to get real answers I am hesitant to really try to push anything amazingly new
<kwwii_> for fear that I am taking a step too far
<troy_s> lol.  good luck with that.
<troy_s> You might be trying, and that is the entire point.
<troy_s> He has had three years and counting to get the design into shape.
<kwwii_> yeah, nothing happens overnight :p
<kwwii_> I think that the UDS will explain a lot to me
<troy_s> kwwii_: Nothing happens for three years?
<troy_s> :)
<kwwii_> troy_s: it was a joke :-)
<troy_s> kwwii_: I know
<kwwii_> actually I think things are slowly changing
<troy_s> kwwii_: It was one of those 'gobsmacked' notions
<kwwii_> at least it is now known that there is a problem
<troy_s> kwwii_: I hear there is a growing pressure from the users on the issue.
#ubuntu-artwork 2007-04-24
<troy_s> kwwii_: He can't have it both ways -- if he wants designers that pay attention to contemporary trends, he is going to have to let go of his preconceived notions.
<kwwii_> I think that is something that comes and goes with their feeling of being able to change things
<troy_s> (and by contemporary trends I could give a flying feck about operating system trends -- as they will _always_ follow)
<kwwii_> yes, that is true
<troy_s> (at least until we have a healthy bed of operating system design out there -- which is happening slowly in the smaller distributions it appears)
<kwwii_> it seems that with a smaller distri you have much more freedom that with the bigger ones
<troy_s> bah, try telling that to apple.
<kwwii_> although really, if things were well organized and planned that would not be the case
<troy_s> more that the people THINK there is less freedom as they are afraid of generating any sort of discussion on the topic.
<troy_s> kwwii_: By the way, I couldn't seem to find the Kubuntu screenshots for 7 oh 4
<troy_s> you have any?
<kwwii_> I'm talking linux distris that are not willing to pay a lot for the design and then pay again for the technical implementation of such
<troy_s> osdir didn't seem to have anything different from the 6.10
<kwwii_> troy_s: nope, I noticed that too and wondered why
<troy_s> kwwii_: Do you have a link?
<troy_s> kwwii_: Perhaps nobody bothered.
<kwwii_> troy_s: yeah, I guess not
<troy_s> kwwii_: It seems everyone is bloody well pumping Fedora at the moment.
<kwwii_> man, I am passing out here...time for bed
<troy_s> (regarding the screenshots etc)
<troy_s> anyways, do you have one?
<troy_s> I would like to see it.
<kwwii_> nope
<troy_s> Ah.
<troy_s> Ok... get some sleep
<troy_s> chat soon.
<kwwii_> there are a few out there on the wiki somewhere
<kwwii_> see you soon
<troy_s> kubuntu?
<kwwii_> yepp
<kwwii_> at least on the release page and on the website
<kwwii_> ok, me is gone for tonight...see you all soon
<psymon101> sorry
<psymon101> :)
<troy_s> psymon101: Yeah I was gone too.
<psymon101> Wife errands
<psymon101> :)
<troy_s> Still sort of am.
<psymon101> no worries
<psymon101> :)
<lapo> hi
<kwwii> hi lapo
<lapo> yo kwwii
<lix> kwwii: moin ;)
<kwwii> lix: moin moin
<lix> kwwii: Hello? Connection problems?
<lix> kwwi: You there?
<kwwii> lix: yepp, I tried to /msg you
<kwwii> is your nick registered?
<kwwii> lix: give me your email address and I'll send you links to the Ubuntu Wallet and CD artwork
<kwwii> eventually I need to put it on the wiki, but I have other important issues atm
<lix> kwwii:: sorry forgot to identify
<lix> kwwii: got my address now?
<kwwii> nope, you have to type it all in again :p
<kwwii> but I will just point you to them
<lix> hangon
<lapo> kwwii: you forget to kwwii-ize the ubuntu logo on the top of the compiz cube!!! :-)
<kwwii> lapo: haven't seen that yet, so I didn't know about it :-(
<kwwii> lapo: although I have the dekstop-effects turned on, it does not do the workspaces on a cube thing for me for some reason
<lapo> kwwii: its kinda picky on workspace configuration
<kwwii> lapo: yeah, I got that feeling
<lapo> kwwii: in the past it used to work with 4 workspaces, now (default config) I have a big one
<kwwii> lapo: well, I tried all kinds of different settings and it would not work for me
<lapo> kwwii: if you're in gnome you can try to unset all the compiz key from gconf to get the defaults back
<lapo> keys
<kwwii> lapo: perhaps I should just erase my .gnome dir or such
<nothlit> lol removing the files is easier :P
<nothlit> kwwii: .gconf/apps/compiz or something like that
<kwwii> nothlit: thanks ;-)
<kwwii> not in gnome atm but I will be soon :-)
<lapo> nothlit: gconftool --recursive-unset /apps/compiz is not so difficult
<nothlit> lapo: ahh :) lol i've only used vim or gconf-editor
#ubuntu-artwork 2007-04-25
<Dorian42>  I have a question for you folks out there...
<Dorian42>  If I've created a banner for Xubuntu to promote it, who do I speak to in order to turn it over to the team here?
<Dorian42>  ...Okay... Found it... Thanks anyways folks.  Sorry to trouble you.
<nysosym> hi there
<highvoltage> hi!
<highvoltage> I'm struggling changing the gnome main menu icon in Feisty
<highvoltage> how did you guys set it? I tried everything from manually replacing icons to changing gconf keys, and it just stays the same :)
<kwwii> which icon do you mean?
<kwwii> the one in the menu
<kwwii> now I see...let me figure it out and I will tell you :-)
<kwwii> is it perhaps humanIcons/22x22/places/start-here.png
<kwwii> ?
<andreasn> I think gnome-main-menu use  device-computer
<highvoltage> andreasn: no, not gnome-main-menu (as in suse slab), standard ubuntu gnome main menu bar
<highvoltage> kwwii: I've replaced it and it sill gives me the standard ubuntu logo
<highvoltage> kwwii: I'm at the stage where I've just about replaced ever start-here.png on the system, and it still shows the old icon :(
<kwwii> lol
<kwwii> it must be hardcoded then
<andreasn> highvoltage: what about distributor-logo?
<andreasn> there is also a icon called gnome-main-menu
<kwwii> hehe, that would make sense
<andreasn> tangerine-icon-theme manages to replace the default one
<andreasn> check /usr/share/icons/Tangerine/22x22/places
<highvoltage> andreasn: distributor-logo is symlinked to start-here.png
<highvoltage> andreasn: gnome-main-menu is /also/ symlined to start-here.png :)
<highvoltage> oddly enough, I've replaced every start-here.png on the system, and it still shows the ubuntu logo
* highvoltage wonders where it is stored
<kwwii> highvoltage: have you tried simply adding the icon you want as distributor-logo (so, no symlink)
<kwwii> highvoltage: naturally, I assume you are rebuilding the icon cache or restarting the computer after changing the icon?
<highvoltage> kwwii: hmm.. not really. how do I rebuild the icon cache?
<highvoltage> gtk-update-icon-cache -q ?
<kwwii> I can't remember...I think you have to do it for each theme though
<kwwii> sudo gtk-update-icon-cache on the theme dir you changed
<kwwii> sudo touch the dir first
<highvoltage> kwwii: that did the trick :-D
<highvoltage> kwwii: thanks a billion
<kwwii> highvoltage: no problem, glad to be of help
<meatballhat> troy_s: ping!
<troy_s> greets
<troy_s> how goes it Dan?
<meatballhat> it could go better ;-)  ....  had a chance to peep at MarketingTeam/DIYWebsite/DesignSpec yet?   (it is definitely NOT done)
* pochu waves!
<pochu> heya all! I'm an administrator of the iso-testing team, and we were thinking in setting up some new branding in it :)
<troy_s> interesting
<troy_s> pochu what are your thoughts?
<pochu> this is the page: https://launchpad.net/~isotesting
<pochu> well, we were talking about it the other day
<pochu> and we thought some things:
<pochu> burn, because we burn cd's to test the isos :)
<pochu> glasses, because we check carefully the images looking for bugs...
<pochu> of course cd's :)
<troy_s> are you looking for an identity logo or some other presence?
<pochu> yeah, a logo which identifies the team is what we're looking for
<pochu> and since nobody in the team is an artist... :)
<pochu> I'm asking for your suggestions :)
<troy_s> is henrik pointman for it?
* pochu searches 'pointman' in the dictionary :)
<pochu> he's the main admin
<troy_s> the fellow who should have the bits shipped to him
<troy_s> iso testing eh?  something to connote testing  to the launchpad userbase?
<pochu> troy_s: but I'm also an admin, so you can send them to me
<pochu> or to both :)
<troy_s> aight... hit me with an email -- troy dot sobotka at gmail dot comsite
<pochu> we don't have a ML yet :/
<pochu> ok, gonna do :)
<pochu> troy_s: do I CC the ubuntu-art ML?
<troy_s> up to you
<troy_s> pochu: It is entirely as you feel... you can expect more penetration with the mailing list.
<pochu> I think I'll CC it, so the other members in the ISO team can follow up
<pochu> and of course other members of the list can contribute :)
<troy_s> hopefully ;)
<troy_s> again, i have fluxwork and some polishing for us to finish up here and there
<troy_s> so i am a little busy
<troy_s> but i will most certainly try for a new identity logo
<troy_s> pochu: Just the identity though correct?  This won't expand further than the identity logo?
<pochu> sorry, can you rephrase?
<pochu> I'm not english, and don't understand your last sentence :/
<troy_s> pochu: There isn't a website etc... just a single log?
<troy_s> logo
<troy_s> grr.
<pochu> yes :)
<troy_s> only the logo
<troy_s> ok...
<troy_s> you are lucky to have omma on the team
<pochu> I'll explain in the mail. Just writing :)
<troy_s> he is a top notch guy
<pochu> yeah, and he coordinates very well! :)
<pochu> troy_s: sent :)
<troy_s> pochu: I see.
<troy_s> :)
<pochu> :-)
#ubuntu-artwork 2007-04-26
<pochu> good night, and thanks a lot!
<psymon101> howdy
<troy_s> greets psymon101
<troy_s> I just forwarded that work off to the team
<psymon101> Hey Troy
<psymon101> aah
<psymon101> cool
<psymon101> I am such a dope at Inkscape
<psymon101> just started
<psymon101> Illustrator kid me
<psymon101> :)
<troy_s> i actually prefer much of inkscape's interface -- the realtime nature of it is quite nice
<psymon101> yes, thats fantastic!
<troy_s> It is quite incredible what you can do with it if you give it a shot really.
<psymon101> you did that?
<psymon101> v.excelllent
<troy_s> well ... no because it isn't finished...
<troy_s> but yes...
<troy_s> it's my daughter.
<psymon101> you sir are talented
<troy_s> its inkscape.
<psymon101> its bloody good whatever did it:)
<troy_s> getting finished with the other projects on the go is a bit tricky
<troy_s> it was actually quite a rapid job... but the hair is a pain in the ass.
<psymon101> I can relate.
<troy_s> etc.
<psymon101> its very nice, perfect shading.
<psymon101> skin tones etc
<troy_s> anyways... now you can crank something out for the artwork identity on launchpad.
<troy_s> :)
<psymon101> oh?
<psymon101> :)
<psymon101> a logo for the group?
<troy_s> well just for launchpad
<troy_s> nothing really tremendous... but it needs doing.
<troy_s> hell we are at 305 members... time for a change.
<yharrow> hi troy
<troy_s> (not that we do anything)
<troy_s> (nor have any impact)
<troy_s> etc.
<troy_s> yharrow: LTNS...
<troy_s> yharrow: u2 has some updates...
<troy_s> yharrow: If you give a flying feck.
<yharrow> troy_s: sweet! of course I care
<troy_s> yharrow: Although I don't know when you looked last...
<troy_s> the wallpaper is coming along... almost alpha
<troy_s> gtk stinks and is in the ditch with the exception of the scrollbar pills.
<psymon101> troy, "Not that we do anything" "nor have impact"
<yharrow> troy_s: I just have had alot of stuff to do what with the party and my father getting admitted to a hospital for heart surgery
<psymon101> explain?!
<psymon101> :( harrow
<yharrow> troy_s: I will definitely take a good look and contribute some as soon as things become stable
<yharrow> troy_s: I am going to check out the bzr now
<yharrow> troy_s: and yeah it has been a while since we last chatted
<troy_s> psymon101: Long story.  There is nothing that the team really does.
<troy_s> psymon101: Do a google for Edgy and Artwork
<troy_s> psymon101: You will get some idea.
<troy_s> psymon101: Ultimately, it is just a lack of 'give a shit' on the part of Ubuntu really.
<troy_s> psymon101: Feisty's work was done soley by one fellow -- kwwii -- and it is pretty much as bland as sabdfl likes it.
<troy_s> psymon101: So if you are looking for character or like trait -- don't expect it.
<troy_s> yharrow: So yes... new wall.  Knocked out another glyph for reload... just slow fleshing out.
<troy_s> yharrow: All of the smaller icons need to be glyphs... not this godawful 'icons everywhere'
<yharrow> troy_s: what is the difference between a glyph and an icon?
<troy_s> yharrow: The glyphs are all identical in form -- an icon is the mix you get in the current menu.
<troy_s> so a glyph might be more like a control panel.
<troy_s> Design wise, it unifies the apps more.
<psymon101>  very important
<yharrow> troy_s: I like that Idea, the icons in the start menu were always a little unsettling in their differences. However if you are able to control every icon then I dont think that unification is an issue.
<troy_s> i am just not a fan of this trend of the 'icons everywhere'
<troy_s> it drives me nuts
<troy_s> yharrow: exactly.
<troy_s> yharrow: More like instrumentation panel
<troy_s> yharrow: Save the more 'elegant' icons for 48x48
<troy_s> (which is what hte default folder icon is for example)
<troy_s> at hte small size trunk back to glyphs.
<yharrow> troy_s: what do you suppose should be the smallest icon possible then?
<troy_s> yharrow: I don't mind, but below 48 i think they should be glyphs.
<troy_s> yharrow: Have a look in icon-dev to see the quickies (ignore the inking -- just the strokes)
<troy_s> yharrow: They aren't terribly strong yet, but you will hopefully get the idea.
<troy_s> yharrow: The folder feels about right -- perhaps some ink work on the colour.
<yharrow> troy_s: I am going through the logs to find the url of the bzr download
<troy_s> yharrow:  No need
<troy_s> yharrow: All that info is in launchpad... go to the product and click 'CODE'
<troy_s> tab
<yharrow> cool
<yharrow> that is good to know
<yharrow> :)
<troy_s> yharrow: Yes... you can get all the info through launchpad... even browse it now too.
<yharrow> troy_s: Ubuntu is really evolving at an amazing rate
<troy_s> ?
<yharrow> troy_s: I just noticed that membership of our team is increasing
<troy_s> Yes... 305
<troy_s> At the start of Edgy the team had exactly 13 members iirc.
<yharrow> wow!
<psymon101> good sign
<yharrow> yeah
<yharrow> troy_s: also the U2 team is getting larger
<troy_s> yharrow: It seems there are quite a few interested folks actually... but ultimately it requires more people who can work.
<troy_s> psymon101: It is only a good sign if we have the talent, dedication, education, etc.
<troy_s> psymon101: Otherwise it is just two clicks really.
<troy_s> :)
<troy_s> psymon101: Which is why getting things done in the community is important.
<psymon101> it seems that the kwii chap has the reigns
<psymon101> not a problem though
<psymon101> more the contribution
<psymon101> more the relaxing load on them
<troy_s> yharrow: kwwii has been staying employed with Canonical since Edgy.
<yharrow> troy_s: well I definitely agree that having contributing members is better then having non contributing members but I also beleive the more members the higher there is a chance that someone will contribute as long as there is someone moderating the contributions  and encouraging people along
<psymon101> more direction the community can achieve
<troy_s> yharrow: Agree.
<troy_s> 100%
<troy_s> yharrow: It takes time too... there wasn't much there in the early going.  Just figments of imagination.
<troy_s> psymon101: I think that most of the issues I have with Ubuntu will likely not ever be dealt with... so I don't really worry about it.
<troy_s> psymon101: I still force myself to stay committed, but the rest is simply frustrating.
<yharrow> troy_s: so rather then go ahead and deny people who dont appear to be educated/commited enough. I would just accept anyone who has reasonable knowledge in art and is even moderately commited to our cause
<troy_s> yharrow: I do.
<troy_s> yharrow: I give everyone who asks the chance...
<yharrow> troy_s: oh ok. I guess I just misunderstood then
<yharrow> :D
<troy_s> yharrow: In the end though, it is a tough thing...
<troy_s> yharrow: People tend to like to produce and carry on down their paths... which makes it difficult when someone has invested time.
<troy_s> yharrow: It is why I am quite a believer in docs and roughs.
<troy_s> because you can rough something and get the direction across without investing hardly any time.
<yharrow> troy_s: do you make it clear to people who get involved that this is not a democracy?
<yharrow> troy_s: I mean in a nice way of course
<troy_s> yharrow: I actually would prefer it to be.
<troy_s> yharrow: To discuss and develop process.
<yharrow> troy_s:  it helps when we explain why it must be controlled to some extent
<troy_s> yharrow: I have always believed that the most influential work is a byproduct of process -- not a focus on destination.
<troy_s> yharrow: The trick is to create an environment where people can fail and have a good time doing it.
<troy_s> yharrow: You have to be willing to put things out there even if it stinks.
<yharrow> yeah, I know what you mean. its difficult to do
<troy_s> yharrow: I do it all the time... ;)
<yharrow> troy_s: I agree
<troy_s> yharrow: You put the idea out there, and if someone with a mature eye looks at something, they might be able to glean what you saw as 'interesting' and put it in the proper direction.
<troy_s> for example, someone posted an interface idea... it was a completely CRUDE sketch
<troy_s> I thought at the time that it was out of scope, but really I think it is quite brilliant.
<troy_s> I have mulled it over for quite some time.
<troy_s> a simple floater that is very much like a remote control -- no panel etc.
<troy_s> controlling the three loose categories of your computer.
<troy_s> i'll see if i can find the link
<osymon101> damn the firefox killing my system:(
<troy_s> psymon101: That's no good.
<psymon101> :(
<troy_s> yharrow: That idea of a VERY simple 'television remote control' sort of lurked in my head.
<troy_s> Further it is entirely doable in java.
<troy_s> erk
<troy_s> !
<troy_s> python
<troy_s> i meant to say
<troy_s> psymon101: Hopefully you'll manage to keep generating bits for the people that need them
<psymon101> yeah...
<psymon101> i usually can spare an hour or 2 at night
<psymon101> depending on my work situation
<troy_s> where do you work?
<troy_s> (feel free to ignore that if you aren't comfortable)
<psymon101> sorry
<psymon101> I was in firefox
<psymon101> I run a VoIP PBX company
<troy_s> somethign exchange?
<psymon101> its really a phone system:)
<psymon101> VoIP softswtch
<psymon101> built on Asterisk
<psymon101> we kill Cisco etc... on price alone
<psymon101> just trying to make a name for ourselves.
<psymon101> and what do you do if you dont mind me asking?:)
<troy_s> Erk
<troy_s> Sorry... I need to run
<psymon101> lol
<psymon101> np!:)
<psymon101> take care
<troy_s> I work mostly full time in the Motion Picture industry
<psymon101> check ya later.
<psymon101> Sweet!
<troy_s> i do some contract work sometimes outside for various bits (like video game companies)
<psymon101> very intrestin!
<troy_s> I shoot music videos when people ask me to photograph stuffs...
<troy_s> and ...
<troy_s> probably some other crappy arsty fartsy creative crap in there.
<psymon101> lol!
<troy_s> oh yeah... wait patiently while a trilogy of novels works through the system to getting greenlit to be shot.
<psymon101> that cool though
<psymon101> <envy>
<psymon101> :)
<troy_s> don't envy
<troy_s> lol
<troy_s> it is pretty bunk
<psymon101> its cool!:)
<psymon101> ok mate
<troy_s> on the whole... right now i am thinking more and more about running my own company for design / art / creative crap.
<troy_s> lol
<troy_s> chat soon
<psymon101> I have to go to bed:(
<troy_s> send me an email
<yharrow> ok later
<psymon101> shall do!
<psymon101> seeya... own company is hard but rewarding:)
<psymon101> seeya!
<lapo> hi
* pochu waves!
<pochu> troy_s: I love your icon, but it has no relation with ubuntu, aparently
<pochu> what do you think about changing the green liquid to Ubuntu orange?
<pochu> or if you have any other idea... :)
<nysosym> hi there :)
<pochu> hey nysosym
<nysosym> hi pochu, how are u?
<pochu> fine, thanks! :)
<nysosym> good :)
<troy_s> greetings pochu
<pochu> hey troy_s!
<troy_s> pochu: Give me a second
<pochu> sure :)
<troy_s> Generally I am not for branding the hell out of everything -- the Circle of Friends and the Ubuntu font is nastily overused...
<troy_s> That said... I'll try somethin
<pochu> thanks a lot!
<pochu> maybe just make the "water" orange?
* pochu doesn't know :)
<troy_s> we were always taught 'if you hear the sound of a dog barking, you don't need to show a dog barking'
<troy_s> which is rougly what i was suggesting... context tells you that it is for ubuntu
<troy_s> it is the ubuntu iso testing team :0
<troy_s> pochu: Can you dcc accept that file?
<troy_s> pochu: I have no idea how to make it smaller... probably just plop the CoF to the side of it.
<troy_s> pochu: Eek.. that's bunked... try this one.
<pochu> troy_s: got it
<pochu> troy_s: what do you think about making the liquid orange?
<troy_s> pochu: Sure... we can try that...
<troy_s> let me pull the circle of friends off...
<troy_s> I think it works far better without any of that on it...
<pochu> :)
<troy_s> pochu: catch this one.
<troy_s> Is that what you were hoping for?
<rankin> hello
<pochu> hi rankin
<pochu> troy_s: yeah! :)
<pochu> that should work :)
<troy_s> hold on then
<troy_s> pochu: Let me give it a bit more touching...
<troy_s> pochu: For the smaller icons, I think you are probably reduced to only the flask in a simpler format...
<troy_s> 192, 64, and 14 were the sizes?
<pochu> let me see
<pochu> troy_s: yep!
<rankin> i need some help
<rankin> i just joined Ubuntu Art
<pochu> welcome aboard!
<rankin> ty
<pochu> (though I'm not aboard hehe)
<rankin> but i think i understand what we do, but i dont in a way!
<troy_s> rankin: Currently we don't really do anything.  Our primary focus is community related elements.
<troy_s> rankin: Develop designs, help out others, etc.
<rankin> ok
<troy_s> rankin: That said, there are plenty of projects that would love to have your abilities.
<rankin> ok, yes i have actually helped in designing operating system funtions, and more. and designs
<rankin> wait, is Ubuntu Art. A Project team
<troy_s> pochu: Bear with me, sorry friend.
<troy_s> pochu: Trying to get those sizes for you.
<troy_s> rankin: Did you get my private message?
<Zie> no
<Zie> im Rankin
<troy_s> Zie: you need to register your nickname with nickserv
<troy_s> can you do that?
<Zie> i allready have
<troy_s> type /msg nickserv help
<troy_s> as what ?
<troy_s> zie?
<troy_s> or rankin?
<Zie> yes
<troy_s> zie?
<Zie> i have 2 nicknames
<troy_s> Are they both regged?
<Zie> yes
<Zie> no
<Zie> hold on
<Zie> try again
<Zie> wait i see it troy
<Zie> I_PERSONALLY wants my help?
<troy_s> yes
<Zie> how do i go about helping him
<troy_s> lord
<Zie> hold on
<troy_s> zie -- join #zies
<Zie> ok look im new, this guy wants me to help him out, well he needs to email me
<troy_s> you aren't very good with irc are you?
<troy_s> lol
<troy_s> Zie -- join #zies
<Zie> no not irc
<troy_s> pochu: I am emailing you the bits now
<troy_s> there are six of them
<troy_s> Ok I must run now... sorry guys.
<troy_s> pochu: Check your email.
<Zie> bye
<pochu> troy_s: looking :)
<troy_s> pochu: The 14 x 14 is obviously not a huge size so it might need some rework.
<troy_s> Zie: Email me
<pochu> troy_s: wow, it's cool! :)
<pochu> though the 14x14 is a little small, hehe :)
<troy_s> pochu: There aren't a lot of pixels there...
<troy_s> pochu: My thinking is simply put the flask in it.
<troy_s> pochu: But again, that is a quick fix.
<troy_s> pochu: If you want... I can fuddle with it a little more in that super small size when I get back
<pochu> sure, thanks :)
<troy_s> Zie: Is your email andyrankin@gmail.com
<troy_s> ?
<pochu> yeah, maybe an orange flask
<troy_s> yes
<heno> hey troy_s, lovely ISO testing image :)
<pochu> so ATM, we have three +1, and no -1 or +0 :)
<pochu> and I'm pretty sure it will be a huge +1! :)
<heno> hm, it seems https://www.stgraber.org/ubuntu/isotesting/ is down
<heno> it would be great to get some better artwork there too
<pochu> heno: refresh now
<pochu> stgraber says he's just rebooted the server
<heno> glad he didn't do that last week
<pochu> yeah :)
<troy_s> heno:  tnx.  rather quick though.
<troy_s> pochu: I'll try to fix up the 14 pixel 'why bother' size that they have put on launchpad.
<pochu> hehe
<pochu> thanks :)
<pochu> btw, there are some icons with 16x16
<pochu> but they're not "official" then :)
<troy_s> pochu: I only did that 14 rather quickly.
<troy_s> pochu: It could probably be a little more legible at that size.
<pochu> yeah
<pochu> maybe remove the cd inside the flask
<troy_s> again, 14x14 is a size that some Gnome idiot would pick.
<troy_s> pochu: Yes...
<troy_s> the 14x14 is really a silly size.
<pochu> heh
<pochu> tell that in #launchpad ;)
<kwwii> I already told them
<kwwii> and they basically ignored me
<troy_s> kwwii: There's a shocker
<kwwii> ;-)
<troy_s> kwwii: Right up there with the rather brilliant 'Hey let's use 22 pixel icons in the menus!'
<troy_s> How about the era of crappy vision that is going to beset all of us old feckers.
<kwwii> feisty should be using 24x24 again
<troy_s> kwwii: AS a MINIMUM!
<troy_s> kwwii: Make the argument that MAINSTREAM users want bigger icons
<kwwii> troy_s: well, the menus get really long using anything bigger than 24x24
<troy_s> it allows for a far superior presentation at 36pixels say, and therefore the immersion is bigger.
<troy_s> kwwii: Yes... a sign that Miller's seminal work on 7 plus or minus 2 is relevant
<troy_s> kwwii: The menu should have FIVE elements at root at most as per Miller
<troy_s> then the sizes aren't a problem.
<troy_s> and in fact, the presentation goes _way_ up.
<kwwii> right, but then the submenus are nasty
<troy_s> Submenus should be restricted to 7+/-2 as well.
<troy_s> if you aren't doing that
<troy_s> you aren't classifying enough.
<troy_s> arguably of course...
<troy_s> but Miller's work is pretty authoritative.
<troy_s> And in the end, to the NEW MAINSTREAM user, they don't give a feck
<troy_s> The immersion goes way way up.
<kwwii> I agree with that...the system--> preferences menu is nasty
<troy_s> Totally!
<troy_s> Subdivide and conquer
<troy_s> It simply goes against the 'minimum system requirements' as laid out by Miller et al of the human brain.
<troy_s> Again, you don't dare suggest that the developers who are very legacy oriented.
<kwwii> lol, yeah
<troy_s> kwwii: Just have a look at Blender's menus and you have a very real indication that the era of menus is legacy and should be either REWORKED or THROWN OUT.
<troy_s> kwwii: You'll be having nightmares after that experience.
<kwwii> hehe, that is one of the reasons that I do not like using blender
<troy_s> kwwii: Although come to think of it, Photoshop is NO better (or any Adobe product)
<troy_s> menus simply are done.
<kwwii> defnitely
<troy_s> It was great in the dark ages when people had 'New!' 'Save' and 'Exit'
<troy_s> lol
<troy_s> We really need to push the tried and true formal research on the issue into the design light.
<troy_s> Miller was a _brilliant_ guy.
<kwwii> the problem is that the devs make their programs like swiss army knives and not like kitchen machines
<troy_s> Although it seems everyone is obsessed with Fitt's law (probably because that is the ONLY thing they know) which turns an operating system into some form of 'video game' where reaction time is all that matters.
<troy_s> kwwii: I always thought one of the great strengths of unix mentality is that you end up with VERY small programs and libraries that do their particular jobs well...
<troy_s> all of that can easily be hidden to the end user.
<troy_s> Ubuntu just is doing a pathetic job at it.
<kwwii> troy_s: yeah, me too
<troy_s> (Ubuntu et al really)
<kwwii> perhaps we should just go back to a CLI
<troy_s> kwwii: You know what -- troubleshooting someone else's machine over the phone is FAR easier via the CLI.
<troy_s> sadly.
<troy_s> because the GUI has run amok
<kwwii> yepp
<troy_s> and you end up needing to communicate in latitude and longitude coordinates to click.
<troy_s> lol
<kwwii> ;-)
<troy_s> The operating system that will be the 'next big thing' will be the one that first starts to rethink everything we know.
<troy_s> Much like Xerox did before their landmark work got appropriated.
<kwwii> hehe, yeah
<kwwii> at the time they thought they would earn more money long-term selling copiers
<troy_s> "Yep... probably won't be much money in our mouse that we developed.  Or that GUI.  That network is probably useless.  Who the hell would want to use email?'
<troy_s> lol
<kwwii> exactly...one of the biggest mistakes of the century
<kwwii> man, I am not the biggest fan of developer meetings
<troy_s> I don't know if it was a mistake so much as they didn't think someone would rip them off.
<troy_s> I think they knew it was relevant...
<troy_s> LOL
<kwwii> but if you get paid to go them it makes it a bit easier
<kwwii> and when it is over I am officialy on vacation until the UDS
<troy_s> Well that's a positive.
<troy_s> Did you manage to drum up some other art and design folks for the UDS?
<troy_s> I know of a few people that were contacted by the powers that be.
<kwwii> I talked to lapo about showing up
<kwwii> really? that is cool
<troy_s> But I don't think any of them took the offer :)
<kwwii> I mentioned that I did not think anyone was coming and got no response
<troy_s> Yes... rather insulting on some level too as a matter of circumstance.
<kwwii> next time I will take care of it myself
<kwwii> I can imagine
<troy_s> By insulting I mean the folks that were contacted have pretty much already expressed their dismay with the situation.
<troy_s> And fundamentally, _nothing_ has changed.
<kwwii> nope, not much has changed yet
<troy_s> (Obviously _nothing_ to do with you kwwii -- talking about the bigger picture as to where a design / art team fits into the structure)
<troy_s> Really, you could probably roll that into the Design / Art / Marketing side of things.
<kwwii> right, and we have a long way to go on really changing things
<troy_s> "Entity Management"
<troy_s> Well I get this fundamental notion that people are fearful of clearly stating a target for the default distribution.
<troy_s> When in fact, it would be the _best_ thing we could do.  We could probably extend it into accessibility derived presentations, cultural presentations, 'expert user' presentations.
<troy_s> Etc.
<troy_s> Corporate presentations... etc.
<troy_s> It would be quite ground breaking if you had a stub header in Ubiquity that figured out what you were in terms of audience.
<troy_s> And custom fit one of the 'overlays' to it.
<kwwii> hehe, no doubt
<troy_s> For example, the home user who has a desktop in their living room wants something different from a bank manager rolling out Ubuntu on 20 service stations.
<kwwii> although I am not sure if the current users are a good description of our target user group
<troy_s> HELL NO
<troy_s> But the users we are LOSING
<troy_s> are the ones that _are_
<troy_s> The ones who FINALLY give Free Software a try and are driven away from their experience.
<troy_s> etc.
<kwwii> true
<troy_s> In fact, one could argue that the people who are MOST capable to change the way their systems look
<troy_s> are also the most vocal about NOT changing things for others.
<kwwii> right
<troy_s> which is _extremely_ selfish.
<troy_s> wow...
<troy_s> have you been paying attention to your launchpad notifications kwwii?
<troy_s> There are so many folks joining the team it is frightening.
<kwwii> troy_s: yeah, I set up an extra email filter just for that
<kwwii> :p
<troy_s> kwwii: I have filters for just about everyting
<troy_s> lol
<kwwii> w00t! meeting over..../me --> vacation!
<kwwii> night all
#ubuntu-artwork 2007-04-27
<pochu> troy_s: I'm off now, too late here
<pochu> thanks again!!
<pochu> and feel free to follow up my last mail regarding the iso tracker ;)
<nothlit> troy_s: you mean like this? :D http://www.gnome.org/~nigeltao/foxybuntu/foxybuntu-mock0.gif
<lapo> hi
<yharrow> does anyone know of an easy way to create and edit themes/styles for gtk?
<troy_s> nothlit sorry don't quite get what you mean
<troy_s> yharrow: There isn't one
<troy_s> yharrow: Get out your text edior
<troy_s> yharrow: And the pixmap engine
<nothlit> troy_s: hmm its a gif animation of this awesome ui :P
<troy_s> nothlit: oh...
<troy_s> nothlit: it still looks a little panel based.
<troy_s> let me look again
<troy_s> nothlit: And web based
<nothlit> troy_s: i saw what you said about colors on the mailing list, why don't you come up with a mock pallete?
<troy_s> nothlit: !?
<troy_s> nothlit: For Ubuntu?
<yharrow> troy_s: oh man!. :P
<nothlit> troy_s: yeah :P
<troy_s> yharrow: It's deadly easy actually
<yharrow> deadly??
<yharrow> :P
<nothlit> isn't the pixmap engine a little buggy @ some things?
<troy_s> nothlit: It isn't possible.  sabdfl doesn't understand about anything other than monochrome.
<yharrow> troy_s: how does the picmap engine work?
<troy_s> nothlit: Not at all in my experiene so far.
<yharrow> pixmap*
<troy_s> nothlit: The problem with trying to retrofit a palette is that it doesn't work...
<nothlit> yharrow: it puts together pieces of images to create ui elements
<abdullah_> hi @ all
<troy_s> nothlit: You simply override certain 'classes' and it uses your images to draw them
<abdullah_> i use kubuntu. how to change the cursor?
<troy_s> abdullah_: xcursorgen
<nothlit> troy_s: well each release would have a different color theme anyways, i wouldn't see why you couldn't come up with a different mood for every release
<troy_s> nothlit: I would agree...
<troy_s> nothlit: That is far too art and design thinking.
<troy_s> nothlit: There isn't a chance of that happening.
<troy_s> nothlit: So embrace the completely blah middle grey
<nothlit> thats unfortunate
<troy_s> nothlit: sabdfl just doesn't get it.
<shek> *test
<troy_s> nothlit: In fact, _no_ one in Ubuntu does.
<abdullah_> it does not work :-(
<troy_s> nothlit: I wouldn't go that far actually -- there are some really good folks
<shek> Hi all
<troy_s> abdullah_: If you use it correctly it does
<troy_s> ;)
<abdullah_> and how to use?
<troy_s> nothlit: and some are heavily interested in pushing Ubuntu art and design
<troy_s> abdullah_: google or man xcursorgen
<nothlit> you can probably change the cursor from kcontrol
<troy_s> nothlit: But unfortunately, there are some that continue to push 'status quo'
<abdullah_> i used update-alternatives --config x-cursor-theme
<nothlit> or put it in your ~/.Xresources
<troy_s> abdullah_: Is this a predefined theme or your custom one?
<abdullah_> but this change only in the kdm the cursor
<abdullah_> a debian package. crystal
<nothlit> use the control center in kde. choose the mouse (under peripherals), and choose the cursor theme tab
<abdullah_> i used apt-get install crystalcursors
<nothlit> troy_s: i look at launchpad, and i don't see many specs :(
<abdullah_> THX
<troy_s> nothlit: It's cooked.  We tried to get art and design airborn during Edgy.
<troy_s> nothlit: We had 13 total launchpad members and not a spec of interest really.
<troy_s> nothlit: Nonetheless getting a working process in place was critical, and sab simply didn't participate at _all_ despite having official checkpoints driven throughout the phase driven process.
<troy_s> nothlit: And looking back to revisionist palettizing -- one of the extremely 'clever' dollar shop clerks turned marketing experts suggested that I simply 'combine all the colours' and call it the official palette.
<troy_s> nothlit: Which gives you an idea as to the expertise level.
<nothlit> troy_s: and everybody shared that opinion?
<troy_s> nothlit: What opinion do you refer to?
<lapo> troy_s: speccing is surelly important you always have to remember that you're not in a corporate where there's people payed to do the work
<nothlit> let me rephrase: All of the nonartists preferred that mindset/method and were resistant to change or extra work?
<troy_s> lapo: That is irrelevant as I have been exposed to enough people to accomplish the work.
<lapo> troy_s: you work with people who may have no experience at all and that do the work because they like to, and if you spec something they're not interested in they will not work for it
<troy_s> lapo: Then they shouldn't be doing it.
<lapo> so everything is kinda difficult
<troy_s> lapo: Not at all...
<lapo> troy_s: for the result you had I think it is :-)
<troy_s> lapo: Either learn a fashion to construct a presentation based on researched and solid design principles.
<troy_s> lapo:  Well considering that the 'client' opted out of _every_ interaction along the path... considering that we had 13 members to start... no process... etc.
<troy_s> All of that takes _time_.
<troy_s> Having done it once or twice in my life.
<lapo> troy_s: yep, that' another big problem
<troy_s> It simply takes time and dedication to sticking to a process.
<shek_tang> hey all, i m pretty new to ubuntu but i am loving it. I've joined the artwork team, where can i see the list of "project" that has to be done etc?
<troy_s> lapo: And sadly the halfassed result by the end of all that STILL fills my box up with mail and STILL gets chundered on about on the forums.
<troy_s> lapo: So considering a sub optimal execution for reasons that should be obvious, I would argue that the entire effort was heading in the right direction.
<troy_s> shek_tang: There aren't any.
<troy_s> nothlit: I think it comes down to a _fundamental lack_ of educated folks on the scene.
<troy_s> nothlit: There is too much 'status quo'
<yharrow> troy_s: Ive been playing with KDE all day
<troy_s> nothlit: And not enough think it through.
<troy_s> yharrow: poor you.
<troy_s> :)
<nothlit> ahh
<shek_tang> troy_s, so..what can i help out?
<troy_s> yharrow: sorry couldn't resist... it is ok.
<troy_s> shek_tang: I would look to the many people / groups of the community efforts that require help.
<lapo> troy_s: the entire effort is *RIGHT* and in the *RIGHT* direction imho
<yharrow> troy_s:  on the contrary, kde has simple tools that  I needed that Gnome just could not or would offer
<yharrow> or would not*
<troy_s> shek_tang: Many of them would probably love to have you on board
<troy_s> lapo: Sorry... current?
<lapo> uhm?
<nothlit> well then we need a strong community voice, or an example/mockup that is capable of demonstrating what should be done, to a convincing degree
<troy_s> lapo: What are you referring to?
<troy_s> lapo: Feisty?
<lapo> troy_s: edgy :-)
<troy_s> lapo: Eek!
<lapo> troy_s: I mean what was tried to achieve
<troy_s> lapo: Lol... well that's my feeling too.
<troy_s> lapo: I just don't think we (as lovers of Ubuntu) are willing to choose a target audience.
<troy_s> lapo: Which is _critical_
<troy_s> lapo: If you looked over any of the output that started to grow (remember we had ZERO output prior to edgy really regarding designs)
<lapo> troy_s: yeah, but it's kinda impossible
<troy_s> lapo: We have / had PLENTY of talented folks in the area.
<lapo> troy_s: it's easier for specific derivate distros
<troy_s> lapo: Hell... Who's work was incredible really.
<troy_s> etc.
<lapo> troy_s: sure
<lapo> yeah, I think most of the who's work was good
<troy_s> lapo: Well that's just the think... if Ubuntu is truly a 'distro' then it could command its own identity
<lapo> well s/was/is/
<troy_s> lapo: I don't think that is the case for something like Gnome.
<troy_s> lapo: The point is _we are going to make mistakes_
<nothlit> ubuntu is more distro-ised in a sense than others
<troy_s> nothlit: I disagree...
<nothlit> in that each DE version has its own distinct identity
<troy_s> nothlit: Oh yes.
<troy_s> nothlit: Sorry i misunderstood...
<troy_s> nothlit: Ubuntu clearly strives to knock off MS as per bug 1
<ubotu> Launchpad bug 1 in Ubuntu "Microsoft has a majority market share" [Critical,In progress]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/1
<lapo> troy_s: sure, but those choices do not depend on you, me or anybody here :-)
<troy_s> So if you state that outright
<troy_s> you MUST start AT LEAST consider some of the very formalized processes to achieving strong communicative design.
<nothlit> without structure it would be difficult to collaborate and create a unified image
<troy_s> (by very formalized I mean extremely well known -- almost every one of my design reference books has a similar process in them)
<troy_s> nothlit: Absolutely.
<troy_s> out to make morning eggs :)
<troy_s> (wonderful chat though...)
<troy_s> nothlit: In the end, it is _that_ process / structure that is important for the first couple of attempts -- the output is completely secondary.
<troy_s> Have a look at Diana Fong's work (Masters of Fine Arts) for Fedora if you want to see a classic process (based off of her blog)
<troy_s> nothlit: I still think the biggest chance of seeing a 'change' is to simply organize outside of the structure and create something that generates interest.
<troy_s> nothlit: And to that end, it is truly in the Free Software spirit
<lapo> troy_s: that's the way
<lapo> troy_s: anyway to create interest you need to show something first
<lapo> troy_s: words and specs alone cannot work
<nothlit> i think i saw something about that, a community theme that would hopefully lead to official inclusion?
<troy_s> lapo: Well not if you are presenting for people who have zero idea.
<lapo> troy_s: and you need to minimize the work needed to create something nice
<troy_s> lapo: I managed to set up two entire 'corporate' creative structures with words and paper alone.
<lapo> troy_s: yeah, but we are in oss remember that always :-)
<troy_s> lapo: How much work have you sunk into Tango?  I don't know if we can avoid the work part :)
<lapo> troy_s: I gathered a lot of interest with a stupid comparative image when tangerine was born
<troy_s> lapo: Absolutely, but in the end, whether it is corporate or Free Software, the process needs to be similar (in its ability to unify design presentation)
<troy_s> Tangerine was a great idea... it lost steam though it seems.
<troy_s> nothlit: I think there are folks who could contribute to a community theme...
<lapo> troy_s: yeah, mostly because how did it lost interest in it (me and adreasn) and didn't done anything with it for an year or so
<troy_s> nothlit: I maintain email with _many_ newer artwork folks who for some reason can't find it in themselves to post to the list...
<troy_s> nothlit: So I try to keep their encouragement high etc...
<lapo> troy_s: I decided to let it bitrot and andreasn did the same
<lapo> s/how/who/
<troy_s> lapo: I think a _lot_ can be gained by really nailing the cornerstones of an icon set -- being the most highly visible components -- the folder, the 'internet', etc.
<troy_s> lol bitrot
<troy_s> good old techrust
<lapo> yeah am an old junk :-)
<troy_s> lol
<troy_s> lapo: Are you 100% busy with Tango or do you find time to contribute in other areas?
<lapo> troy_s: I'm 90% busy with work
<lapo> I do very little for tango atm
<troy_s> lapo: What is your current time sucker?
<lapo> troy_s: IT IT IT :-)
<troy_s> nothlit: The _good_ news is that about 50% of the email I receive now is from people pursuing bachelors levels degrees in art / design.
<troy_s> lapo: ugh.
<troy_s> lapo: Waddling off into some dark corner to turn a server on then sit in another dark corner on ssh and admin it?
<lapo> troy_s: anyway if you intend to base your design on tango style (which is not an icon theme!!! :-)) I'm all with you
<lapo> troy_s: kindoff
<lapo> troy_s: one wrong point in fedora artwork for example is the echo theme, they will never achieve a nice integration icon wise with something which is not tango style
<troy_s> lapo: I think the icons in Fedora are a weak link... the icons need to be more based on an overarching style that is presented in the wallpaper  / etc.
<troy_s> lapo: Probably a weak link across most of the 'sets'
<nothlit> isn't Human done by this company that did the xp icons as well?
<troy_s> nothlit: IconFactory
<troy_s> nothlit: But PROBABLY with some heavy sabdfl input.
<lapo> nothlit: the quality of the theme is irrilevant, cause it cannot really cover all the icons used by the application around
<lapo> nothlit: considering that most appication have tango style icons, the best approach should be to have a tango style icon theme
<nothlit> lapo: i'm just wondering if sabdfl and co would be resistant to a replacement theme, depending on their investment
<lapo> it doesn't have to be tango icon theme, which is just an example implementation, it can be a brand new theme
<troy_s> nothlit: Again, I think sabdfl is bloody brilliant -- so given enough work into something and assuming that on some level he can see the validity in it, he would probably do it.
<troy_s> lapo: There are couple of problems with Tango's style though.
<lapo> nothlit: I said the sadbfl he was wasting his money at the time though :-)
<troy_s> lapo: One -- the palette isn't a real palette.  It is more a sampling of colours across a spectrum.
<lapo> troy_s: that's enough
<troy_s> ?
<lapo> troy_s: the simpler the guidelines are, the better
<troy_s> lapo: And what is "Tango" at this evolutionary point?  The outline plus ?
<troy_s> You have made enough of them to know ;)
<troy_s> What do you do when you start to think of a 'tango' icon?
<lapo> troy_s: and looking at all the tango icons around based on that reference palette I think it worked out nicelly
<troy_s> lapo: No, I am saying that I think the 'tango' style evolved a bit from when jimmac probalby did hte first couple...
<lapo> troy_s: perspective, strokes, palette, lighting mostly
<troy_s> lapo: So I am wondering what it is.
<lapo> troy_s: our guidelines served us well :-)
<lapo> right andreasn? :-)
<nothlit> i think of the strokes, inner highlight, simple design, and the pallete to some degree
<troy_s> I personally am very fond of Paul Davey's work
<troy_s> Incredible guy really.
<lapo> troy_s: I used to hate the innerstroke, but it's a really important usability part
<lapo> s/part/point/
<andreasn> lapo: the tango guidelines? it worked well when doing work for ISV's this far
<lapo> troy_s: reallt nice artwork, not too good icons though
<lapo> troy_s: first of all an icon needs to be clear, if it's even nice it's a bonus point
<yharrow> I just realilzed why i candy is called eye candy
<yharrow> eye candy*
<lapo> troy_s: and Paul's icons are nice on macosx which uses 32x32 as the smallest size
<troy_s> lapo: And why does Mac use 32 as smallest?
<troy_s> lol
<troy_s> exactly the point
<troy_s> below about 48 is a complete waste of time in my opinion -- they should be glyphs at that point.
<lapo> troy_s: that sort of artwork in smaller sizes will not work, things needs to be as simple as possible
<lapo> troy_s: not at all
<andreasn> Paul Davey? who is that?
<troy_s> those sizes are legacy
<lapo> andreasn: http://www.deviantart.com/deviation/53939809/
<lapo> troy_s: the most important size for an icon in the linux world is 22x22
<troy_s> lapo: And that is why it is a backasswards environment
<troy_s> lapo: That size needs to be banished...
<troy_s> lapo: The menus need to be 1) simplified to meet Miller's work thesis
<yharrow> Because if the theme or effects or anything else, were food it would be good enough to eat..
<lapo> troy_s: I can be with you on the fact that we could clean the interface and rationalize a lot of stuff
<andreasn> interesting illustrations
<troy_s> and 2) we need to bump u pto a larger icon size as a base -- MINIMUM 32x32
<lapo> troy_s: all the apps out there uses that size, and you can
<lapo> troy_s: all the apps out there uses that size and you cannot really change the whole world :-)
<troy_s> andreasn: He is a very talented artist.
<troy_s> lapo: Something changes something.
<lapo> troy_s: you will never have enough man force :-)
<troy_s> lapo: So if everyone keeps doing it, it will stay
<troy_s> its just a stupid size.
<yharrow> that may not make any sense to you guys
<lapo> troy_s: changes in oss are really really difficult, you have to deal with a lot of individualisms
<troy_s> it is a STUPID validation technique
<lapo> right andreasn? :-)
<troy_s> lapo: Shuttleworth has changed much in about 3 years.
<lapo> troy_s: not that much at application level
<yharrow> but if you look at some themes and think about them as food, you may understand what I mean
<troy_s> lapo: Its coming.
<andreasn> lapo: heh, yeah
<troy_s> yharrow: Precisely.
<lapo> troy_s: most of the changes he forcefully introduced (which where really small) where rejected by the community
<lapo> troy_s: think about the ubuntu nautilus spatialization "fix"
<yharrow> for example mac OS theme reminds me of delicios blueberry flavored candy.. If mac were a flavor I would eat it in a second
<troy_s> yharrow: Back in early 20th century some crazy haired guy said something about everything being relative except the speed of light.
<troy_s> yharrow: It is more about immersion
<troy_s> yharrow: You have zero immersion with 22 sized icons that must be learned to understand their meaning
<troy_s> yharrow: It is completely tripe if someone thinks they are communicating in 22 pixels.
<yharrow> troy_s: sprinkles count..
<lapo> troy_s: we are communicationg in 22x22 believe me :-)
<troy_s> yharrow: hell... 48 by 48 is about where you can actually start to draw a representational image to a 'mainstream' user.
<troy_s> lapo: I couldn't disagree more.
<lapo> right andreasn? :-)
<yharrow> troy_s: designs on sprinkles dont :P
<lapo> uhm...I need to copy and paste that sentence :-)
<lapo> troy_s: my point is that you don't have to communicate anything but the meaning of the action with icons, what you need to communicate have to be done with other means
<lapo> and you have plenty
<lapo> an icon need to be clear for the user
<lapo> and the icons needs to be consistent with the other
<lapo> so we can have a congruent and polished desktop
<lapo> you shouldn't really do branding with icons, icons are an important part of the interface which is functional to the scope of the program which uses it
<nothlit> i think you can do some branding, look @ tangerine
<lapo> nothlit: tangerine is just a small subset of icons, that's all the branding you may have
<troy_s> lapo: I only think that that 22 is a horrible design choice for mainstream operating system users
<lapo> nothlit: some small change here and there
<nothlit> lapo: thats the best sort :)
<lapo> troy_s: I think it too, but it widelly used and you cannot really change that
<troy_s> lapo: again, it will take a higher level of look / feel design to push the point
<lapo> troy_s: I also think most of the icons in the UIs are not usefull and should be removed
<nothlit> for an os, subtle hints would work fine since its so immersive
<troy_s> lapo: A look / feel that avoids using the stupid 22 by 22 and reorganizes the menus for example.
<lapo> troy_s: the mac uses a lot less icons, they do not have icons in the menus for example
<troy_s> nothlit: Immersion is a VERY tricky level of interaction to achieve.
<troy_s> lapo: Again, that is because windows started with a few icons in the menus
<nothlit> stylesheets+svg will be an interesting way to tune looks in the future
<lapo> troy_s: all those changes have to be done at application level and are not really possible w/o the author agreement
<yharrow> troy_s: what frustrates me is that gnome is missing very simple things such as "right click on desktop> sort by name or sort by type"
<troy_s> lapo: Then people went bonkers with it...
<troy_s> lapo: Actually the menus and pixel size I think is free to choose in gnome.
<lapo> yharrow: uhm?
<yharrow> lapo: I mean for lining up icons
<troy_s> yharrow: Cascade could be in there too.
<lapo> troy_s: somewhat, I think you don't have exactly the idea on how different our software are eh :-)
<TheSheep> yharrow: desktop is not a directory, just don't keep your files on the desktop ;)
<troy_s> yharrow: For quick window management.
<yharrow> I want very much to stick with gnome but they are missing so many simple things.
<lapo> yharrow: ah right
<nothlit> TheSheep: the nautilus desktop icon arrangement is limited though
<troy_s> lapo: It doesn't really matter if ONE product gets the presentation right, the rest fall into line -- case in point -- look at the Mac
<TheSheep> nothlit: that's because it's added as an afterthought after a lot of bitching from windows users who wanted fileso n the desktop
<lapo> troy_s: a lot of ui which looks the same are implemented in different way, doing for example a gtk theme is a lot tricky because you have to consider a lot of hacks for variuos ui pieces implementations
<yharrow> nautilus is another issue for me too. it doesnt even support tabs!
<TheSheep> nothlit: and it's bad as anything added as an afterthought
<troy_s> lapo: Yes... there aren't too many of those left though.
<nothlit> yharrow: lol, gnome HIG is what it is
<lapo> troy_s: yeah, but you cannot go and change all the application around yourself
<troy_s> lapo: I have come across exactly perhaps ONE horribly nasty app set - firefox and thunderbird
<lapo> troy_s: good example
<nothlit> yharrow: spatial browsing is the actual default gnome file browsing method
<troy_s> lapo: Actually, the beauty of free software is that you can at least change _quite a few bits_
<troy_s> nothlit: I think that is a schema
<troy_s> nothlit: You can change _most_ of that via the schemas
<troy_s> for default setups
<nothlit> hmm
<yharrow> IMHO I think the only reason Mark chose gnome is because we can greatly influence their development. KDE is to large and  advanced for us to try and change or cater to our needs
<lapo> troy_s: yes, but you need a lot of manpower to do it and you don't have it, and you probably never have
<nothlit> i'm just saying thats the default gnome, even though ubuntu uses browser mode instead
<troy_s> yharrow: Let's be realistic about that comment.  Mark has enough resources to write a window manager from the ground up.  He could have easily weighed in on E or etc...
<troy_s> lapo: Start small.
<lapo> troy_s: the only way to change things in oss is just filling bugs and hope somebody with your same opinion will fix them
<troy_s> lapo: Again, I believe that if you manage to pull off somewhat of a consistent and 'friendly' to those mainstream users 'base' the rest falls into place.
<nothlit> yharrow: i think simplicity is a great choice for computer <users>
<lapo> troy_s: or you can try to fix it yourself
<yharrow> troy_s: mark is also a smart man and would never waste money simply creating a window manager from scratch
<lapo> troy_s: with the tango guys we are trying to change the various ui, convincing the authors of the apps about stupid icons uses, and believe me it is a LOT difficult
<lapo> right andreasn? :-)
<nothlit> lapo: the best way to change things in oss is submit a patchset/mockups :P
<lapo> nothlit: yeah, right, but you have to convince te maintainer they are right, and it is not really obvious
<andreasn_> lapo: hrm, yeah it sometimes is. you can get some trust after a while though
<troy_s> or fork
<troy_s> the all powerful fork
<troy_s> if someone disagrees, take the base and build greater.
<lapo> troy_s: that means fork, and fork is usually bad
<troy_s> bah
<yharrow> troy_s: heh, and then rejoin if neccessary like beyl and compiz are doing
<lapo> troy_s: and if you fork you have to be sure you have a good community and a better maintainer
<lapo> troy_s: forking stuff is really something you want to avoif
<troy_s> fork is the fundamental strength behind natural selection and DNA, how can it be bad?
<lapo> avoid
<troy_s> It pushes the issue
<nothlit> lapo: just maintain an enhanced branch/patchset for the enthusiasts
<troy_s> Look what happened with Beryl
<nothlit> lapo: if its good, it'll prove itself
<lapo> nothlit: google for goneme and you'll have an exmple
<lapo> example
<troy_s> I wish more things woudl fork and the code would flow a little more freely.
<lapo> troy_s: forks are the last effort
<lapo> troy_s: and most of the forks are a waste of time and resources
<TheSheep> one thing where tango is great is limiting the set of verbs available for actions in the ui
<nothlit> project forks mean confusion. loss of resources, taking sides, etc
<lapo> troy_s: think about the famous forks we had
<andreasn_> goneme was a really great all-talk-and-no-hockey project. What does the author of that do these days? I want a hacker imdb :)
<lapo> eheh
<yharrow> troy_s: talking about this gave me an idea. rather then build our Ubun2 theme from the ground up. We can start with the Human theme and replace pieces of it as we develop replacements.
<lapo> troy_s: name a fork which worked nicelly apart xorg (which was quite the opposite of a fork tho)
<yharrow> troy_s: Im talking about the actual files. not neccessarily the design components
<lapo> troy_s: I really cannot think about one single fork which worked apart xorg and epiphany which are really corner cases
<nothlit> yharrow: that would cause a mishmash with no sense of unity or direction
<yharrow> nothlit: heh, your probably right.
<nothlit> lapo: both of those became entire shifts, rather than forks where both branches can live successfully
<lapo> nothlit: those "forks" where done by the maintainers that's why they worked
<TheSheep> nothlit: there is an alternative to froks -- upstream patches
<lapo> because maintaners where unhappy with other devs decision and inamovable positions
<TheSheep> nothlit: most bad interfaces come from lack of knowledge, and corrections would be probably (guessing) accepted
<lapo> TheSheep: yep, you can write tons of patches but they have to be accepted
<TheSheep> lapo: accepting is actually just a matter of documenting them well
<lapo> TheSheep: not that simple :-)
<TheSheep> lapo: documentation is *never* simple
<lapo> TheSheep: especially on ui, dobey wrote a lot of patches for icons "abuse" but he had a lot of diffuculties to get them accepted
<lapo> and not all of them are in
<lapo> TheSheep: and dobey is a great hacker
<TheSheep> lapo: dobey has kind of a hostile approach, doesn't he?
<lapo> TheSheep: yep, that's another problem, but the quality of the code is high
<TheSheep> lapo: good for hacking but not very effective in inter-personal things
<TheSheep> that approach
<lapo> TheSheep: you have to have the author/maintainer agree with you, and not all the hackers around are sensible about usability
<lapo> or better our interpretation of usability
<TheSheep> lapo: it's even worse
<TheSheep> lapo: everyone assume that usability is simple and that everyine knows about it
<lapo> TheSheep: user testing is the only way
<yharrow> How do you import a pallette into inkscape?
<TheSheep> lapo: so it's more "I know better"
<lapo> TheSheep: anyway there are a lot of simple things which are obvious to some and not so to others
<lapo> TheSheep: let's use some examples
<troy_s> yharrow: Put the GPL into the inkscape/palettes dir
<troy_s> yharrow: Which is different if you use SVN versus repos.
<lapo> TheSheep: take baobab, do you think it really need a toolbar?
<TheSheep> lapo: of course not :)
<lapo> TheSheep: less unusefull stuff you have the better, this basic principle is difficut to get for application authors
<troy_s> lapo: Focus group based 'user testing' is the only way
<TheSheep> lapo: that's not good for all kinds of applications, mind you
<troy_s> lapo: In the end, the people who are giving feedback belong to a given demographic
<lapo> TheSheep: synaptic, I think I shouldn't have a mark all button on the toolbar, because it's the default action it should do
<TheSheep> lapo: you have to recognize that there are applications for different user groups
<lapo> TheSheep: sure, but less stuff better usability almost always
<troy_s> lapo: And _that_, is where we all hit the dirt.  Without a knowledge of WHO is giving the feedback, you would be failing to apply the research to the given audience.
<lapo> TheSheep: sure, but basic usability priciples still applies
<troy_s> Once again:  Audience, Audience, Audience.
<troy_s> lapo: There is _no_ such thing as a BASIC usability principle.
<troy_s> it doesn't exist.  Its a myth.
<TheSheep> lapo: you'd be surprised how the basics are often overriden by more important but less obvious things
<yharrow> troy_s: what is the difference?
<troy_s> yharrow: SVN installs to /usr/share/local/inkscape/palettes
<troy_s> yharrow: The repository one is somewhere else that eludes me right now.
<lapo> TheSheep: there are no thing set in stone, but most of the time the lesser the better works
<yharrow> oh ok
<nothlit> troy_s: i'd say theres one: Familiarity does not equal usability.
<troy_s> lapo: If you are referring to the maxim of simplicity, even it as a design rule isn't exactly simple :)
<lapo> TheSheep: fire up two or three app and see how many icons you could remove from the toolbar because are never used for example :-)
<troy_s> nothlit: Amen
<troy_s> nothlit: Bless your soul.
<yharrow> locate palettes | grep inkscape = /usr/share/inkscape/palettes/svg.gpl
<TheSheep> lapo: if you simplify something too much, you're actually adding complexity -- by adding modes, decreasing visibility, etc.
<troy_s> lapo: Again, if people knew about Miller's work, they would know a pretty damn good number of THINGS to put in the toolbar
<troy_s> yharrow: That's it!
<TheSheep> troy_s: Miller?
<troy_s> yharrow: You simply take your gpl and put it in there and restart inkscape.
<troy_s> TheSheep: The Magical Number Seven Plus or Minus Two
<lapo> TheSheep: sure, never oversimplify, but most of the stuff can be simplyfied believe me :-)
<TheSheep> troy_s: ah, right
<troy_s> TheSheep: And I think what you were getting at by 'increasing complexity' again is bound to audience
<TheSheep> troy_s: word processors rule here :)
<troy_s> TheSheep: For example, for my six year old, you probably couldn't oversimplify enough.
<yharrow> troy_s: putting it in ~/.inkscape/palettes worked but I will put a copy in the main dir too, just in case
<troy_s> yharrow: Oh yes... it didn't work at one point that way for me.
<yharrow> troy_s:  you were using svn?
<nothlit> yharrow: put the artlibre icons into ~/.inkscape/icons/ while you're at it :D http://andreasn.se/diverse/temp/icons.svg
<troy_s> http://www.musanim.com/miller1956/
<troy_s> yharrow: Always
<TheSheep> troy_s: you could -- note how he prefers "complex" toys, with moving parts and sounds and bells and whistles :)
<troy_s> TheSheep: http://www.musanim.com/miller1956/
<troy_s> TheSheep: Wrong again
<troy_s> TheSheep: Its a she :)
<TheSheep> troy_s: I've read it, I just didn't remember the name
<troy_s> TheSheep: Lol.
<TheSheep> troy_s: not fair!
<troy_s> TheSheep: Just another case in point about poor assumptions in audience
<troy_s> TheSheep: Which I think is exactly the point of this discussion
<TheSheep> troy_s: oh, I get a lot of these
<troy_s> TheSheep: So in a roundabout way, you hit is spot on the money!  (As usual you stinker)
<TheSheep> troy_s: recently I've done a re-styling of certain web interface for a database
<troy_s> TheSheep: Did you glean anything?  Miller's work is perhaps the most amazing and relevant study regarding interface design
<lapo> troy_s: what I'm trying to say anyway is that if you spec something, you have to consider the "environment" and you need to choose not to change too many things, otherwise it will not work 'cause it cannot be implemented :-)
<TheSheep> troy_s: and one of the e-mails from users said how great it is now with the new style that it's all on one page
<troy_s> TheSheep: Solely because it is how _every_ user (mental issues aside) approaches the piece out of the gate.
<troy_s> lapo: Again, it depends on the sheep.
<troy_s> lapo: Some will agree and contribute, some won't.  That's the nature of evolution.
<TheSheep> troy_s: I immediately assumed that consistent styling made him think it's a "one site", when before it threw him from one stle to another (part of the system was a wiki, for example)
<troy_s> lapo: I have found nothing but a willingness and desire thus far... perhaps that will change.
<lapo> troy_s: hopefully
<troy_s> TheSheep: Launchpad suffers from that 'one styling' now... it is wonderful, but it tends to hide the fact that it is separate components.
<lapo> troy_s: but you have to get willingness by the right people :-)
<TheSheep> troy_s: turned out he was refering to a smaller font in the main view of table with articles
<troy_s> TheSheep: Read the Malone Launchpad bug :)
<troy_s> lapo: In my experience, the Free Software crowd has a disproportionate percentage of borderline genius types.  It helps.
<TheSheep> troy_s: I think the term "different application" is moot on the web
<troy_s> TheSheep: Hrm... let me find the bug and you will see why I would probably disagree with that statement a little...
<lapo> troy_s: with the tango guys we bugged devs, filled bugs and so and we had, after some time, good results, but you have to convince a lot of people that you are right and you have to prove yourself before speaking usually :-)
<troy_s> TheSheep: Remember -- when people come to "Launchpad" for example, they think UBUNTU
<troy_s> and the byproduct is this bug:
<TheSheep> troy_s: by the way, do you know of any user-interface centered wiki site?
<troy_s> TheSheep: The best one I know of
<troy_s> is planet HCL in terms of a site
<troy_s> not a wiki though iirc
<troy_s> the rss is very insightful.
<troy_s> (albeit in a scattered sort of opinions first approach)
<troy_s> (as opposed to a tactical attack on specific audiences versus expectation)
<TheSheep> troy_s: I started one for my own notes, but it has poor content for now :)
<troy_s> bug 88818
<ubotu> Launchpad bug 88818 in malone "Many people report non-Launchpad bugs on Launchpad products" [High,In progress]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/88818
<troy_s> https://bugs.launchpad.net/malone/+bug/88818
<troy_s> TheSheep: That single bug is entirely somehow wrapped up in what we were just discussing.
<troy_s> TheSheep: I think that for a wiki to be effective, it really needs to boil down the notion of focus group to pages.
<troy_s> TheSheep: As you need to distill exactly who you are talking to with an interface selection.
<troy_s> TheSheep: Hell... there was a time not that long ago when people didn't know what a button was in a GUI.
<TheSheep> troy_s: nod nod
<troy_s> <lapo> troy_s: with the tango guys we bugged devs, filled bugs and so and we had, after some time, good results, but you have to convince a lot of people that you are right and you have to prove yourself before speaking usually :-)
<troy_s> lapo:  The problem is I don't know if any of the very well researched folks I know would ever say they were 'right'
<troy_s> lol
<troy_s> lapo: They tend to be a little more cautious -- citing exceptions along the way and fleshing out those exceptions into larger 'be carefuls'
<lapo> troy_s: with "right" I mean the stuff I'm suggesting needs to be done :-)
<TheSheep> or at least we are convinced :)
<lapo> troy_s: as you can surelly see english is not my native language, consider that whet weighting words :-)
<troy_s> lapo: But again, where is that coming from -- follow me?  Gut instincts or ?!
<lapo> ugh?
<lapo> uhm?
<TheSheep> lapo: let's mob them
<troy_s> lapo: Your english is a helluva lot better than my "lapoish"
* troy_s is horribly short on 2nd languages.
<troy_s> Bonjou.  Comme ca va?
<troy_s> Le cahier de exercise.
* lapo is horribly short of the 1st a well :-)
<TheSheep> troy_s: that's one of the disadvantages of speaking English natively
<troy_s> Ah zut!
<troy_s> TheSheep: Yet another audience issue :)
<troy_s> lapo:  I mean what do you base your 'the stuff I'm suggesting needs to be done' on is what I was getting at.
<lapo> troy_s: the hig, better desktop videos, beliefs, logic
<troy_s> lapo: I find the HIG to be quite flawed on a number of levels -- too Utopian.
<lapo> troy_s: it's clear that the gtk_yes and gtk_no icons are stupid and should be burned :-)
<troy_s> lol
<TheSheep> troy_s: there is another problem: people have this habit of choosing the wrong product for their skill
<troy_s> it seeks to address too many in a very naive and foolish approach.
<lapo> troy_s: then step up and try to change the points you don't find good
<troy_s> lapo: It isn't my place.
<TheSheep> troy_s: like picking the cellphone with most features instead of the one with the features I actually need
<troy_s> TheSheep: Woop.  Guess what causes that?
<lapo> troy_s: the hig is good for most part and is a needed tool, a very needed one
<troy_s> TheSheep: It is a desired impact.
<TheSheep> troy_s: many factors, but the reluctance to make decissions is one of them
<troy_s> lapo: I think interface guidelines are wonderful if you simply come out and state "hey this isn't for people with motor impaired skillsets, colour sensitivities, etc."
<TheSheep> troy_s: if I choose the one with many features, I don't need to decide which features I don't need
<lapo> troy_s: I don't know if you used gnome 1.x, but if you think gnome2 is a mess, that was an order of magnitude worse :-)
<troy_s> TheSheep: I would say it is a desired outcome
<troy_s> TheSheep: That is called solid design and marketing :)
<troy_s> TheSheep: Creates that 'i need that'
<troy_s> TheSheep: Whether they do or not.
<TheSheep> troy_s: marketing is the root of all evil
<troy_s> lapo: Limited experience with GNOME 1.
<nothlit> TheSheep: what? everything has a tradeoff
<TheSheep>  Not praising the worthy prevents contention,
<TheSheep> Not esteeming the valuable prevents theft,
<TheSheep> Not displaying the beautiful prevents desire.
<lapo> troy_s: in oss you need an holy guide all the people subscribe
<TheSheep> :P
<troy_s> lapo: I just find that when people get up on a soapbox and say "This is good for all users" i tend to lose faith in _everything_ surrounding that statement.
<troy_s> lapo: That's the problem, I eat gods for a living.
<troy_s> lol
<lapo> troy_s: I think the scope of the hig is quite the same as the spec you want to write
<troy_s> TheSheep: Whoa Tao Te Ching quotes in #u-a
<TheSheep> troy_s: reading it along Donald Norman :P
<troy_s> lapo: Perhaps.  I wouldn't be so bold as to cause them Human Interface Guidelines...
<lapo> troy_s: the hig is not set in stone and it doesn't want to say "I'm good for every user" it just a set of guideline everybody agreed
<TheSheep> lapo: agreement has nothing to do with it
<TheSheep> lapo: it's just "when in doubt, do this, at least you won't screw it up that much" ;_
<lapo> TheSheep: right
<troy_s> lapo:  Mine would be more... 'The Non Linux / Gnu familiar Guideline That Might Make Mainstream Folks Using Mainstream Operating Commercial Operating Systems A Little More Likely to Make the Flip"
<lapo> anyway it's just a "tool" to have some sort of coehrence in the jungle of application which are the gnome dekstop
<TheSheep> then again, my friends look at HIG like at a Holy Bible :/
<lapo> TheSheep: and it's the right approach most of the time :-)
<troy_s> lapo: With a subtext of:  "This applies to those with 85% mainstream visual acuity, 80% mainstream motor skills, etc. and residing in the relatively mature age group of approximately 21 - 36."
<TheSheep> lapo: not really, they neve read it all, they just quote snippets :)
<lapo> eheh
<TheSheep> lapo: and out of context too
<lapo> TheSheep: that's one problem :-)
<lapo> TheSheep: anyway lazyness makes the world goes round :-)
<troy_s> In the end, the user is always right.  We just need to direct our designs to whatever users we wish to 'be right' :)
<TheSheep> you can't expect every developer to hire some lab staff and test subjects
<troy_s> lapo: If it were only lazyness impeding development of the design related matters it would be easy to fix.
<lapo> troy_s: don't bet on it :-)
<troy_s> TheSheep: Which is why having a wiki would be nice.
<troy_s> TheSheep: For the 'small' developer who needs to know some of the traits of a target user.
<TheSheep> troy_s: there is openusability.org ...
<troy_s> (again, it is why Miller's work is so relevant -- it applies to the largest percentage of human brains.)
<TheSheep> troy_s: the problem is there is very few "hard facts"
<troy_s> lapo: And the 'spec' is already written.  It is being worked on by a few.
<troy_s> TheSheep: Absolutely!
<TheSheep> troy_s: feel free to use mine, by the way: http://ui.sheep.art.pl
<troy_s> TheSheep: Again, why Miller's work is relevant.  But also
<troy_s> TheSheep: Dropping the 'is not international' idea.
<troy_s> TheSheep: Cultures vary at least as dramatically as users.
<TheSheep> troy_s: not much so far, and what's there is probably more or less wrong, but it's all about gradual improvement :)
<andreasn> I'm off, bye!
<lapo> I have to go as well, nice chat
<troy_s> TheSheep: Within that, if you pick a culture and a general demographic (male / female / both) and an age group
<TheSheep> troy_s: but computers are more or less tied to the western cultures
<troy_s> TheSheep: You can have very effective communication
<lapo> ciao guys
<troy_s> TheSheep: At least, it works for billion dollar companies with effective design campaigns
<TheSheep> bye lapo
<troy_s> Ciao lapo!
<troy_s> Come back soon.
<TheSheep> troy_s: the best rules can be derieved from the cognitive sciences -- at least they have good chance of being universal
<TheSheep> troy_s: then again, they can apply in so many ways, often contradictory
<troy_s> TheSheep: Agree there.
<TheSheep> troy_s: and the interactions are impossible to anticipate
<troy_s> TheSheep: Yep.  Its frustrating, which is why I choose to avoid being 'universal' and try to appeal to a particular audience.
<troy_s> at least you can throw relativity out the window
<troy_s> and just deal with subjective experience if it fits with the target.
<TheSheep> being "standard" at least appeals to those who already use the computers
<TheSheep> and to those taught by them
<troy_s> TheSheep: If there were 'standard'
<troy_s> we don't need to look far to debunk that myth too.
<troy_s> every single wm implements things differently, et.c
<TheSheep> troy_s: let me tell you about an example
<TheSheep> troy_s: you know roguelike games?
<TheSheep> these are text-based dungeon-crawling games
<TheSheep> but use ascii pseudo-graphics, not textual descriptions
<troy_s> TheSheep: Duh :)
<TheSheep> because they often work in text mode, they are often picked up by blind users
<troy_s> TheSheep: I loved em!
<TheSheep> because screen readers work nice with text mode
<TheSheep> even if they need to use the 'look' command a lot to get the idea of their surroundings
<TheSheep> now, we had one blind user who reported that he can only play ADOM and not other roguelike games
<TheSheep> because in theo tehr games, he'd have to point the screenreader to the message area all the time
<TheSheep> while in ADOM it would read the messages automatically when they appeared
<troy_s> TheSheep: That is exactly the point of our entire discussion.
<TheSheep> a little investigation revealed that ADOM was suing BIOS calls to print the messages on the screen, while other games used ncurses that usually pinted directly into the graphics memory
<troy_s> TheSheep: It is probably relevant though, that if ADOM were developed for the blind, it would have been a target spec.
<TheSheep> in this case, using the most primitive, well known, popular method payed off in support by screen readers
<troy_s> TheSheep: Absolutely.  It also raises an interesting thing regarding aesthetic design:  How do you create an aesthetically appealing output for a blind person using a screenreader?
<TheSheep> sure, but see, the people who design screen readers, special keyboards and pointers, braile terminals and other assitive technology are not stupid -- they usually try hard to make it work with as many "standard" things as possible
<troy_s> Then it would have 'worked'
<troy_s> I still think it is a myth.
<TheSheep> rolling your own user interface instead of using standard libraries can break it, for example
<troy_s> The fact that it is console and that console - console has a greater chance of working with the device than say the more obvious, GUI to console.
<troy_s> Unless your TARGET AUDIENCE is considered when developing.
<TheSheep> it's not, I'm getting scrollwheel support in all my applications even when I didn't program it at all, the applications were written before scrollwheel even existed
<troy_s> Little different -- its a window event
<troy_s> But I can appreciate what you are trying to forward.
<TheSheep> it often works if you just don't get in the way :)
<troy_s> That sort of 'standard' is more of the givens
<troy_s> What we are suggesting here isn't that you reinvent the keyboard or ... xxx
<TheSheep> games are horrible in this regard -- they all always have to create their own UIs
<troy_s> But consider more efficient ways of working for a given group.
<troy_s> TheSheep: Also bear in mind that without innovation and the WILLINGness to throw it all out the door and experiment, we end up exactly where we are now.
<troy_s> TheSheep: Which is arguably sub-optimal on several levels.
<troy_s> TheSheep: And horribly effective on others (hell... you can use a completely 'Free' operating system to browse the web -- so that is a success in and of itself)
<TheSheep> um, the Web consists of free operating systems, the commercial products are refugees here
<troy_s> lol
<troy_s> albeit refugees with large weapons and first world funding.
<troy_s> that occasionally manage to take up bastions in strategic areas (Flash anyone?)
<troy_s> lol
<TheSheep> the whole idea of "owning software" is as alien as the idea of "owning land" was to Indians
<troy_s> amen
<troy_s> lol
<TheSheep> wonder where are we going
<TheSheep> and what will our kids think of us
<TheSheep> troy_s: about that target audience, it's just marketing, you can *create* your target group with any characteristics you want, it's just a question of resources spent
<TheSheep> personally I find that the best software is written by the people who only need it for themselves
<troy_s> Lol -- because it is always easier to hit the target audience needs
<troy_s> TheSheep: And regarding target audience (not a bad term either) you can't create a group.  They do evolve and change over time, but no amount of marketing could generate an audience (unless you mean similar to the band U2 generating a new 'market' for themselves and merchandise)
<TheSheep> troy_s: I'veread somewhere that you should never aim for the current audience needs -- you should always aim a little off, so it's something they want to become
<troy_s> TheSheep: Probably good in a marketing scenario.
<TheSheep> troy_s: not too far, however, because they are lazy ;)
<troy_s> TheSheep: I don't know the relevance when you are providing a wrench -- but perhaps.  I know that car advertisements use that trick in spades (Just look at 4x4 truck visuals)
<troy_s> The 'average' target audience members is only doing that sort of appealing driving in their fantasies. :)
<TheSheep> same with "usable" software, it's sort of a myth
<TheSheep> I'm becoming a little tired of all that "it's not your fault" crowd recently
<TheSheep> sure, design can help greatly, but it won't replace a little care and brains :)
<troy_s> TheSheep: Amen!
<troy_s> TheSheep: Again, it is relevant only to the folks using it -- which is why I would expect the unix mentality to thrive -- small cli driven expert apps with PLENTY of different UIs.
<TheSheep> troy_s: unix has POSIX for the cli interfaces
<TheSheep> troy_s: it's pretty much set
<TheSheep> troy_s: and it's good, as you get interoperability for free
<TheSheep> I think that the best thing that happened to desktop computers in the last 3 years is dbus
<TheSheep> it lets you mix-and-match GUI apps in similar way you can do that with cli apps using pipes
<TheSheep> and you don't care which app it is, as long as it has needed functions
<troy_s> TheSheep: Yeah DBUS is much needed.
<troy_s> TheSheep: And it is dynamic which is nice.
<TheSheep> gamin is another nice thing
<TheSheep> no more "hit refresh to see changes"
<TheSheep> it's the reusable components like these that make people write better applications
<TheSheep> otherwise lazyness prevails
<yharrow> troy_s: I just finished a bit of a mockup
<troy_s> yharrow: Email it to me or dcc in pm?
<yharrow> troy_s: Im waiting for it to export to png
<yharrow> troy_s: its taking a while to render
<troy_s> yharrow: Use the SVN inkscape -- it is superior in rendering time etc.
<troy_s> yharrow: In fact, there was a bug in the renderer that caused tremendously long renders.
<yharrow> troy_s: how do I download from svn?
<yharrow> rendering time is ridiculous
<troy_s> wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Incoming/HowToCompileInkscape
<troy_s> iirc
<troy_s> pretty simple
<yharrow> ok cool, gonna do that soon as it finishes rendering
<yharrow> whenever that is *rolleyes
<yharrow> troy_s: still rendering
<yharrow> lol
<yharrow> over 15 minutes
<yharrow> this is insane
<troy_s> yharrow: Compile svn
<troy_s> yharrow: Load said svg
<troy_s> yharrow: Render
<troy_s> you have hte buggy one
<troy_s> you will have the complete compile and finished render done by the time it finishes... trust me
<troy_s> kwwii had a 3 hour render
<yharrow> troy_s:  I didnt save the svg yet, I wanted to see what it looked like before I saved it. dumb move.
<troy_s> off of an image that took me 2 minutes
<troy_s> NO kidding.
<yharrow> now THAT is inSANE
<BHSPitMonkey> hey TheSheep, I haven't really seen you in a while
<troy_s> as i said... break it.
<troy_s> :)
<troy_s> BHSPitMonkey: luckily we have him back sklurking
<yharrow> ok gonna compile while this renders
<troy_s> yharrow: Good idea :)
<troy_s> hilarious...
* mode/#ubuntu-artwork [+o troy_s]  by ChanServ
* mode/#ubuntu-artwork [-o troy_s]  by troy_s
<troy_s> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1RqdZCo6vkI&search=stossel
* mode/#ubuntu-artwork [+o troy_s]  by ChanServ
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-artwork:troy_s] : "Welcome to #ubuntu-artwork. 7.04, the latest and greatest, is out now, download it now at a mirror near you!" -- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1RqdZCo6vkI&search=stossel
* mode/#ubuntu-artwork [-o troy_s]  by troy_s
<troy_s> yharrow: Have you seen Motorola's red campaign?
<troy_s> It is quite amazing... I have driven past the bloody billboard about 20 times and rather went 'wow' to it at least a few times...
<yharrow> troy_s: nah, I havent seen it,  I could google for it though. what is it about?
<troy_s> you would need to see its simplicity
<troy_s> but that said, i just came across the designer...
<troy_s> lol
<troy_s> quite amazing http://www.wolff-olins.com/
<troy_s> if you don't recognize the 'olins' do a search
<troy_s> it will become clear.
<yharrow> ok will do that
<yharrow> gotta go for a while be back in a bit
<yharrow> troy_s: I'll just send you w/e renders within the next 5 minutes
<yharrow> nm, Ill be back in about an hour or 2 Ill send the file then
<yharrow> oh wait. it just finished
<yharrow> troy_s: ok here it is
<yharrow> ping troy_s
<troy_s> yharrow: Resend
<troy_s> yharrow: Sorry, afk
<troy_s> yharrow: Or was.
#ubuntu-artwork 2007-04-28
<yharrow> hey
<yharrow> troy_s: ?
<yharrow> you there?
<troy_s> yharrow: Yes.
<troy_s> yharrow: Just sending an email to tonic regarding the coding of usplash
<yharrow> cool
<yharrow> ok Ill resend now
<yharrow> if you are available
<troy_s> yes hit
<yharrow> troy_s: did it go through?
<troy_s> yharrow: Email it... your ports are clogged or something.
<yharrow> troy_s: firewall. what port should I open?
<yharrow> nm
<yharrow> I stopped firewall for a sec
<yharrow> try again
<yharrow> firewall is down so it should go through
<troy_s> something is bogged... email it yharrow
<yharrow> troy_s: ok, which address should I mail it to?
<troy_s> troy dot sobotka at gmail dot com
<troy_s> trying to get the gdm alpha in place
<troy_s> (unfortunately simply reusing the wallpaper)
<troy_s> (as it is a lot of work to generate a new one right now... and not really worth it until the gdm gets into style)
<troy_s> the design direction is such now that it is easier to develop those components though
<troy_s> splash and gdm should probably be the next targets.
<troy_s> metacity needs to be updated to the newer rustic feeling on the floral print
<troy_s> yharrow: Wow... that's pretty cool.
<yharrow> troy_s: I basically sent you a brain dump of the textures that I imagined possible
<troy_s> yharrow: If we could somehow get it into the 'remote control' form it would be ideal.
<troy_s> yharrow: Have you pulled the newer wall from bzr?
<yharrow> troy_s: as soon as I find the command to download from bzr, I will. Right now its on hold until I do
<troy_s> LOL
<troy_s> let me pm you the details...
<yharrow> troy_s: ok :D
<TheSheep> 09:12 -!- ryanakca [n=ryanakca@ubuntu/member/ryanakca]  has joined  #ubuntu-artwork
<TheSheep> hilarious
<TheSheep> 09:12 -!- ryanakca [n=ryanakca@ubuntu/member/ryanakca]  has quit [Excess Flood] 
<shek> what image editing program are you using?
<shek> Is there any possible way to run photoshop in ubuntu?
<elkbuntu> shek, some versions of photoshop run in WINE, but gimp is a fairly good replacement
<TheSheep> shek: and Inkscape when you need easily editable, scalable things
<elkbuntu> both gimp and inkscape are also available on windows if you're ever stuck in there with no editing software
<TheSheep> elkbuntu: using gimp on windows requires some... endurance
<elkbuntu> TheSheep, as does paintshop. your point? :
<elkbuntu> er s/paintshop/paint/
<elkbuntu> although paintshop isnt exactly a walk in the park at times either
<TheSheep> hehe, I started with psp4 :)
<elkbuntu> then you'd know what i mean ;)
<TheSheep> it wasn't that bad for the pixel pushing I was doing back then
<TheSheep> heck, I did it with plots in basic before that
<elkbuntu> heh
<shek> elkbuntu, thanks but i haven't get used to gimp yet>.<
<shek> TheSheep, installed it yesterday, trying to get the hang of it :)
<elkbuntu> shek, if you have a valid photoshop, try it under wine, but there is a problem with one of the versions of wine and cs2, so your milage may vary
<nothlit> TheSheep: i don't know if many people would know the difference with gimpshop on windows
<TheSheep> nothlit: don't mention that name
#ubuntu-artwork 2007-04-29
<yharrow> ping troy_s
* Starting logfile irclogs/ubuntu-artwork.log
<troy_s> yharrow ping
<Alternati> i want to help
<yharrow> troy_s:  pong
<Alternati> ping
<Alternati> Jewqr
<Alternati> grq
<Alternati> 5
<Alternati> q
<Alternati> gre
<Alternati> t
<Alternati> FUCK YOU
<Alternati> FUCKING EAT SHIT!!!!
<Alternati> FUCK ALL OF YOU!!!!!
<nothlit> woah
<nothlit> rofl, you guys playing irc pong? ;)
<troy_s> hrm...
<troy_s> we need more operators
<yharrow> Trae: agreed
<yharrow> nothlit: lol
<yharrow> nothlit: kinda
* mode/#ubuntu-artwork [+o troy_s]  by ChanServ
<yharrow> nothlit: Alternati apparently doesnt know what ping is supposed to do though
* mode/#ubuntu-artwork [+b *!*@*.ri.ri.cox.net]  by troy_s
<yharrow> hehe
<yharrow> :D
<yharrow> so much for helping
* mode/#ubuntu-artwork [-o troy_s]  by troy_s
<yharrow> troy_s: ooh that looks like fun. How do I become an operator too. I am on artwork channel almost 24/6
<troy_s> 26/6 doesn't cut it.
<troy_s> lol
<nothlit> yharrow: lol by not asking :P, and contributing
<troy_s> naw.
<troy_s> its completely arbitrary
<troy_s> lol
<troy_s> yharrow: you were ping ponging for me earlier?
<yharrow> nothlit: aww, well we will see, I will make as big a contribution as I am able to
<yharrow> nothlit: Im starting to get used to the mailing list
<troy_s> yharrow: Ping?
<yharrow> troy_s: just wanted to let you know that I finished compiling inkscape successfuly. The issue was an outdated library
<yharrow> heh
<troy_s> yharrow: Cool.
<troy_s> yharrow: It is far superior... try the fill tool
<troy_s> yharrow: Amazingly helpful little nudge
<yharrow> troy_s: been trying lately. looks like a lot of fun
<troy_s> yharrow: Basically a several combination bool (union of all the elements you are filling, then do an exclusion to get the resulting shape)
<troy_s> now it is one click.
<troy_s> greets psymon101
<psymon101> Hey Troy..
<psymon101> hows things?
<yharrow> troy_s: I also noticed that the tut has no mention of ssl support for inkboard. So i updated it
<psymon101> hi harrow.
<troy_s> yharrow: Yes... I haven't actually gotten inkboard use in practice yet.
<troy_s> yharrow: Trying to grow the base to try it out.
<troy_s> yharrow: I have it compiled in (configure --enable-inkboard iirc)
<troy_s> yharrow: But haven't done it... (you connect through a jabber enabled server iirc)
<nothlit> i talked to the inkscape guys
<nothlit> inkboard is unstable
<troy_s> nothlit: regarding?
<troy_s> it always has been
<troy_s> but it will always remain unstable until people start using it.
<troy_s> ;)
<nothlit> it constantly segfaulted when joejaxx and i tried it lol
<troy_s> nothlit: I think there is a param you can set to get a little more stability than that.
<nothlit> troy_s: as in shouldn't be included packaged binaries
<nothlit> thats what they said ^
<psymon101> sometimes I wish I could actaully code to fix some of these bugs:)
<troy_s> nothlit: Who uses packaged inkscape?
<troy_s> nothlit: lol
* psymon101 looks the other way
<psymon101> :p
<nothlit> troy_s: as in shouldn't be used and is only developmental code :P
<troy_s> psymon101: You can just as easily contribute by learning a solid way to issue QA bugs.  Frequency, Steps to Repeat, Platform, etc.
<nothlit> i do though lol, i don't want to deal with svn hiccups
<troy_s> nothlit: Inkboard's been around for quite a while though.
<psymon101> good poinr troy.
<psymon101> point
<nothlit> troy_s: yeah they seemed to imply that the .43 version was more stable
<troy_s> To be honest nothlit, for the past year I have found SVN to be not only easier, but more stable than the main.
<troy_s> (render bug comes to mind.)
<nothlit> I don't have those ubuntu issues :P
<troy_s> nothlit: Then you don't use inkscape much -- the render issue was a plague
<nothlit> hmm yeah I've only used it recently, to fool with the fluxbuntu stuff
<yharrow> troy_s: wanna try out inkboard with me?
<troy_s> yharrow: In a bit... about to head into the backyard.
<yharrow> ok cool, if you manage to come across a tutorial to set it up. Please let me know and we will try it out
<joejaxx> it works using jabber
<nothlit> joejaxx: we used your jabber server and it didnt work though
<nothlit> even with a blank canvas =/
<joejaxx> nothlit: yes it did
<joejaxx> that was gmail
<nothlit> joejaxx: the chatting and see each other did lol, but i still didn't see anything
<joejaxx> we tried the fluxbuntu one but it kept seg faulting
<nothlit> s/see each other/online presence
<troy_s> nothlit: Was that with SVN or the default?
<troy_s> joejaxx: ?
<nothlit> hmm
<joejaxx> svn
<nothlit> release, recompiled with inkboard
<joejaxx> actually did we not try both?
<troy_s> svn at current is far more stable with inkboard.
<nothlit> hmm
<nothlit> i don't think so
<joejaxx> i know i have svn
<nothlit> i thought you just tried the old ubuntu version and an up to date one
<joejaxx> because i had to compile it
<troy_s> nothlit: It also matters if BOTH parties are using SVN
<troy_s> (for obvious reasons)
<nothlit> i didn't know he was lol
<troy_s> nothlit: Well gee that might account for a FEW segfaults.
<troy_s> lol
<joejaxx> lol
<nothlit> bah, the inkscape folks gave me the impression it was unusable
<troy_s> nothlit: It is usable, just not production stable.
<yharrow> I wonder if we could have a whiteboard between more than 2 people. Then we could have a sort of sketch session
<yharrow> where we collaborate via irc and whiteboard
<troy_s> yharrow: I think that's the idea
<yharrow> almost like google docs for artists
<yharrow> that would be awesome come to think of it
<troy_s> yharrow: I think that's the idea... we would need to test... I can test in about 10 minutes as soon as I figure out why Alt-Print isn't taking a window screenshot and NEVER has for me
<yharrow> heh. ok  w/e you are able just send me a ping. I might be busy for the next hour or so though
<troy_s> yharrow: Is your SVN current as of today?
<troy_s> yharrow: Mine just built... so I am up to current.
<lapo> hi
#ubuntu-artwork 2008-04-21
<DanaG> Is my Thunderbird bugged, or have there really been no recent posts to the mailing list?
<troy_s> DanaG: Nope.
<DanaG> "Nope?"  -- which is that?
<troy_s> DanaG: No posts.
<DanaG> aah.
<DanaG> Hmm, anybody else notice how far off-center (vertically) the progress bar is on the usplash theme?
<DanaG> Try booting without 'quiet'
<m1r> hello
<savvas> the application-x-bittorrent (i.e. .torrent) comes from freedesktop.org's mimetype package not from gnome :P
<savvas> I put in that feature request for no reason bah
#ubuntu-artwork 2008-04-22
<Alan_M> hello everyone! :)
<troy_s> <DanaG> Hmm, anybody else notice how far off-center (vertically) the progress bar is on the usplash theme?
<troy_s> DanaG: You mean horizontally?
<DanaG> Nope, vertically.
<DanaG> Between the textbox and the logo.
<DanaG> If you boot without 'quiet'
<troy_s> DanaG: What do you mean off-center?  Center punching isn't exactly good composition, so I would need you to explain.
<DanaG> Do you use the usplash with 'quiet' disabled?
<troy_s> DanaG: In general, center punching _anything_ is a good reason so suspect that the person doing it is drunk.
<troy_s> DanaG: Yes...
<troy_s> DanaG: Where is the center of gravity for the two components -- the graphical progress bar and the wordmark?
<DanaG> On a line between either the logo bottom OR the text-in-logo bottom, and the top of the messages, is way offcenter.
<DanaG> I'm not sure, but it somehow seems visually off to me.
<DanaG> It may also be looking odd because I don't have native-res framebuffer.
<DanaG> LCD: 1440x900.  VESA mode: 1024x768.  Stretched.
<DanaG> To counteract that: usplash.conf is 1024x853
<DanaG> So it goes low.
<DanaG> How do you get usplash to use the fake-widescreeen images?
<troy_s> DanaG: Well, I don't know where it is... there are some technological limitations to perfect composition of course -- namely that the text area wasn't laid out by someone with a clue so the logo and the progress bars are often composed in avoidance of that area.
<troy_s> DanaG: Widescreen and usplash has always been awful.
<troy_s> DanaG: But it shouldn't affect the vertical compostion.
<DanaG> I made it look not-squished, but the vertical composition is like this:
<DanaG> From bottom of logo text to top of box, the progress bar is 2/3 of the way down.
<DanaG> Measured to bottom of progress bar.
<DanaG> At least it's circular, though.  I had to reverse-compensate:  1024*(4/3)/(16/10)
<troy_s> DanaG: 2/3rds for the progress bar is probably high... as your eye will be drawn to the center of gravity of the two sources
<troy_s> DanaG: Which in this case would be about probably say, 2/3rds of the way from the top of the logo to the bottom of the progress bar.
<troy_s> DanaG: Needless to say, it is close.
<DanaG> It's one of those "just close enough that it's hard to tell" things.
<troy_s> DanaG: Well it is pretty simple more or less -- you just locate a centre of gravity and make sure that it abides more or less by the rule of thirds.
<troy_s> DanaG: In this case, the centre of gravity of the logo is around that guess, and _that_ margin line would be located approximately at 2/3.
<troy_s> DanaG: But... no one gives a shit.
<troy_s> DanaG: Well... 61.8% to be far more accurate in terms of classical composition.
<DanaG> Whatever it is... it's off by just enough to be odd.
<DanaG> Either that, or my sense of balance is screwy.
<troy_s> DanaG: Have a look at the default KDE wallpaper if you want to see odd composition.
<DanaG> Oh, that one from vladstudio.com?
<troy_s> DanaG: Yes.
<troy_s> DanaG: It's just asstastic.
<DanaG> That guy has sooo many other better wallpapers -- actually, the kde4 default is one of his worst ones,  I think.
<troy_s> DanaG: The composition is horrific (aside from some of the other more often cited issues with walls / concepts / etc.)
<DanaG> SOme of his other wallpapers actually work reasonably well with that changes-over-time thingy.
<DanaG> But I'd rather have good static artwork than crappy dynamic artwork.
<DanaG> I'm using the transparent svg from just above the "gdm theme" concept.
<_MMA_> Oh ffs. "Zoom" view for widescreen wallpapers in Hardy now justifies the pic to the left side and everything off the right on a 4:3 screen instead of centering and cropping both sides. Asstastic.
<kwwii> _MMA_: that is nasty
<thorwil> if "adjustment.upper" returns 204.0, "adjustment.set_value(204.0)" should cause the scrolledwindow to scroll to the end, right?
<thorwil> but it only scrolls a few lines down :(
<troy_s> _MMA_: What is the net effect?
 * thorwil only now notices it's the wrong channel
<troy_s> thorwil: Lol.
<_MMA_> troy_s: Instead of cropping both sides equally, it takes it all from 1 side.
<troy_s> _MMA_: Woop.  Center punchy mook hell!
<troy_s> _MMA_: It's pulling it off the left too yes -- which is sort of a worst case scenario.
<_MMA_> troy_s: Indeed.
<psyke83> hi
<kwwii> hi psyke83
<psyke83> hey kwwii
<_MMA_> psyke83: We're trying to get a theme to use specific icons in the panel.
<kwwii> you don't happen to know how to set a different icon theme for just the panel, do you?
<kwwii> :-/
<_MMA_> Something like "ï»¿gtk-icon-theme-name = "gnome" is supposed to work.
<psyke83> _MMA_, what theme is this for?
<_MMA_> psyke83: Goes somewhere in the "style "panel" section.
<psyke83> you need to use an absolute path for the icon theme, btw
<kwwii> psyke83: do you know how to set a gtkrc just for the panel?
<_MMA_> I do.
<psyke83> kwwii, ok, I don't think it's possible to do that, as the gtk-icon-theme-name is a global variable that can't be defined within a style
<_MMA_> psyke83: So then what we need to find is a way to set an icon theme or a set of images within the "panel" style.
<psyke83> _MMA_, it's not possible, and the icon theme seems to be overridden anyway
<_MMA_> psyke83: With that "ï»¿gtk-icon-theme-name" sure. Im looking for another way.
<_MMA_> I was tinkering with setting the panel icon size to a particular size and editing those icons to suit.
<_MMA_> But, while i can get that to kinda work it still grabs images from outside the set size. ie: 20x20.
<psyke83> _MMA_, if you're including the menu icons (i.e. Applications, Places, System), that's the menu icons, not exclusively panel...
<_MMA_> See, here's where Skype is good.
<_MMA_> No. "panel" not "panel-menu"
<kwwii> psyke83: actually, we only want to theme the things that show up on the panel, not in any of the menus
<psyke83> I don't think it's possible to change the icon set for different widget sets anyway, but maybe it's possible to set individual icons somehow like here: http://roscidus.com/desktop/book/export/html/98
<psyke83> see "How can I theme the toolbar icons?"
<_MMA_> psyke83: Hmm... That might work.
<psyke83> just bear in mind that's ROX-Filer, and there may not be defined names you can edit in the same way
<_MMA_> psyke83: So you think that will work in style "panel"?
<psyke83> nope
<_MMA_>   stock["gtk-close"] = {{"close-icon.png"}}
<_MMA_> grr...
<kwwii> psyke83: thanks for the link, lots of good info there
<psyke83> hold on a sec...
<psyke83> look at this: https://bugs.launchpad.net/baltix/+source/gnome-panel/+bug/134144
<ubotu> Launchpad bug 134144 in gnome-panel "Main menu icons blurred using alternate theme controls" [Undecided,New]
<psyke83> comment 3
<psyke83> is it possible that we can define: gtk-icon-theme-name = "panel=gnome", for example?
<psyke83> it's a long shot, though
 * _MMA_ tries.
<psyke83> doesn't seem to work here
<psyke83> it seems to be completely ignored, in fact (as a global setting)
<_MMA_> :(
<psyke83> bear with me, look at this: gtk-icon-sizes = "panel-menu=24,24:gtk-menu=24,24:panel=24,24"
<psyke83> the panel-menu and gtk-menu entries work (try setting them to 16 to see), but the panel doesn't
<psyke83> maybe it has a different name, so if we can find out the name, we can use the same format to change the icons
<psyke83> damn, gtk-menu doesn't work either
<_MMA_> gtk-menu should. As that effects the applications and sytem menus.
<psyke83> it should, but it doesn't when you actually try it
<_MMA_> Logout/in.
<_MMA_> Or restart the panel.
<kwwii> gtk-menu only does app menus and the places and system menu in the panel
<psyke83> that's panel-menu
<kwwii> panel-menu only effects the applications menu in the panel
<psyke83> (replying to _mma)
<kwwii> oops, sorry
<psyke83> kwwii, gtk-menu doesn't work
<psyke83> I'm looking at e.g. gedit's menu
<psyke83> kwwii, nope, panel-menu does the applications places and system menus on the panel, try it yourself
<kwwii> psyke83: freaky, earlier I got it to only effect the applications menu...perhaps I did not restart the panel or such
<psyke83> it seems that gtk-icon-theme-name is completely broken
<psyke83> yeah, that's weird... but on my system it affects all the panel menus
<kwwii> yeah, it does here too now
<psyke83> that seems very weird that the icon theme can't be changed... hmm
<kwwii> hrm, I can set a custom icon for all the applets and objects in the panel in gconf
<kwwii> the custom_icon key
<kwwii> but then I guess people would complain that they cannot change those icons when changing themes
<psyke83> kwwii, hmm, is that what's overriding the gtkrc in the first place?
<_MMA_> kwwii: Yes. I would kill you.
<kwwii> psyke83: no, those keys are not set
<kwwii> I would have mentioned that :p
<kwwii> the panel seems to be freaky anyway...my firefox icon is 24x24
<kwwii> it fills up the whole height of the panel
<kwwii> and the only firefox icons I can find are, at the smallest 48x48
<kwwii> the other icons in the panel are 22x22
#ubuntu-artwork 2008-04-23
<kwwii> well, the applications ubuntu logo is also 24x24
<kwwii> I simply do not understand how this works
<psyke83> kwwii, using which icon set, Human?
<kwwii> psyke83: yepp
<kwwii> psyke83: although all the firefox icons are in /usr/share/pixmaps and/or /usr/share/firefox/icons
<psyke83> yeah, the first one
<kwwii> I guess I could change the icon to 22x22 but anyone who has an icon on their desktop will get pissed
<kwwii> lol, it is actually, scaling down that icon from 128x128
<kwwii> totally freaky
<kwwii> man, there is soooo much work to do
<kwwii> but enough for tonight
<kwwii> bye all
<_MMA_> Night.
<kwwii> boah, the gtk-menu icon size changes the size of the close tab icons in firefox
<kwwii> man, this is crazy
<kwwii> let's just set things willy-nilly and hope for the best
<kwwii> rotfl...  http://sinecera.de/Screenshot-3.png   ...scales nicely!
<psyke83> wow, those fonts are rendered nicely, what's the source of that?
<_MMA_> kwwii: Go to friggin' bed! :P You got like 3 sizes there it looks. :)
<kwwii> _MMA_: I give up on trying to understand how it does what it does
<kwwii> now it is definitely time for bed
<kwwii> as soon as the movie is done
<_MMA_> :P
<savvas> x-rated are not an excuse to skip your sleep! :P
<savvas> _MMA_: your solution with the rebuilding of xorg.conf helped another person as well :)
<savvas> er.. i mean recreation
<_MMA_> Cool. :P
<troy_s> kwwii: https://bugs.launchpad.net/gnome-panel/+bug/112665
<ubotu> Launchpad bug 112665 in gnome-panel "/usr/share/gnome/gnome-panelrc fails to impact theme" [Low,Confirmed]
<troy_s> kwwii: That is the best it gets for gnome panel theming.  Certain elements will shift, others (for example using the pixbuf engine to adjust rounded corners) will not.
<Administrator__> hi
<troy_s> Administrator__:  hello.
#ubuntu-artwork 2008-04-24
<DanaG> http://start.ubuntu.com/8.04
<DanaG> Eek, old double-orange Heron!
 * DanaG pokes the air and hopes somebody notices... but doesn't 'poke' any one specific person.
<DanaG> s/pokes/waves his arms in/
<_MMA_> Oh give it a rest. It really doesn't matter.
<DanaG> I won't see that page myself, anyway.
<DanaG> I use about:blank
<DanaG> I'm already wondering what Intrepid will have... but perhaps it's way too early.
<DanaG> Yup, way early.
<DanaG> "Intrepid" makes me think of cars.
<DanaG> Vroom.
<troy_s> Wow.
<Cimi> kwwii, where's scott on irc?
<kwwii> Cimi: keybuk is his nick
<Cimi> thx
<cody-somerville> Can someone make Xubuntu a release banner please please please? :)
 * cody-somerville pokes troy_s.
<kwwii> lol, the heron also made it to the front page of the store!
<kwwii> http://shop.canonical.com/
<cody-somerville> hawt
<_MMA_> kwwii: Is that the shirt their gonna have at UDS?
<kwwii> _MMA_: no idea, I thought they were only making them for UDS until I saw that you can buy them
<_MMA_> ok
<kwwii> hi KevinTW
<KevinTW> hi kwwii
<kwwii> cody-somerville: did you find someone to make your banner?
<cody-somerville> I used a draft banner
<cody-somerville> kwwii, But if you could whip something up for us, it would be greatly appreciated :)
<kwwii> cody-somerville: not sure exactly what you want/need or where it will go
<kwwii> cody-somerville: but if you have nothing else I can take a whack at something
<cody-somerville> This is what we had for gutsy: http://www.xubuntu.org/files/gutsy_is_here.png
<kwwii> cody-somerville: ok, so did you have something in mind?
<cody-somerville> Not really :)
<_MMA_> pfftt... Typical.
<_MMA_> "I can't give any input up front. Only after work is put into it to say I don't like it. " :P
<_MMA_> All, after-the-fact and shit. ;)
<DanaG> Is that a rule, or an observation?  I can't tell.
<DanaG> And who says that?
<DanaG> Oh yeah, who's the supplier for that shirt?
<DanaG> Some places I've seen don't offer designs that big.
<kwwii> cody-somerville: do you have a screenshot of the desktop I could use for that pic?
<cody-somerville> http://www.xubuntu.org/files/xubuntu.png
<kwwii> boah, inkscape just died on me :p
<savvas> be sure to get rid of the corpse :p
<savvas> anyway, as that fellow henrik omma said in a bug report of mine, they won't use anything above 0.46 for inkscape :\
<kwwii> because that is the supported version in the archive I guess
<savvas> probably, but I had a problem importing the gnu svg from wikipedia :P it came out black hehe
<savvas> oh well, intrepid is just 6 months away hehe
<_MMA_> savvas: Use Inkscape from the testers PPA. or build from source. SVN is real easy.
<savvas> _MMA_: one step at a time :P I'm just a bit afraid to tinker with the source :)
<savvas> I'll enjoy my working release for now, until june/july when i finish biochemistry and physiology exams
<_MMA_> savvas: Ill post instructions somewhere. It's really shit simple.
<savvas> _MMA_: please do! I'll read it, I always have some spare time to make things better:)) just highlight me and point me to a link if you do so
<kwwii> cody-somerville: http://sinecera.de/xubuntu_ken.png
<kwwii> cody-somerville: just something I made quickly, no worries if you don't use it
<kwwii> http://sinecera.de/xubuntu_ken.svg if you want to tweak it or whatever
<cody-somerville> kwwii, thanks :)
<kwwii> lol, check this out
<kwwii> http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2008/04/24/nogc124.xml
 * _MMA_ looks
<_MMA_> People have dirty minds. :P
<oskude> hi, i cant send any messages to ubuntu-art list, nor can i unsubscribe with the mailman interface (it just doesnt work)... can i unsubscribe from the list using email ?
<kwwii> oskude: although I am not positive, I think you can just put unsubscribe in the subject or such
<oskude> kwwii, hmm, on the other lists its normally another email address, but i'll try
<kwwii> yeah, might be
<kwwii> do your emails get rejected from the list?
<kwwii> or do they just not come through?
<oskude> kwwii, atleast i didnt get any error (that i know of)
<kwwii> my guess is that the servers are really slow atm due to all the people downloading hardy, accesing the web page, etc
<oskude> i send my message at Thu, 17 Apr 2008 19:15:46 +0200
<oskude> kwwii, ah, i see your the admin of ubuntu-art ?
<kwwii> oskude: yepp
<oskude> kwwii, if you have access to the logs, you could check what happened to that email, titled "unsubscribe broke ?" from andre at osku dot de
<kwwii> oskude: it does not look like you are subscribed to the list
<kwwii> that email adress is not subscribed at least
<oskude> kwwii, hmm, i still get emails from there, even today, ill check
<oskude> kwwii, hmm, i tried other emails that i have (but i normally use only that) cant login with anything (assuming my password is correct)... can you look if any account from osku.de is subscribed ? (no need to say which, i dont have so many)
 * oskude goes play... xchat log is on ;)
<troy_s> cody-somerville: When do you need it?
<cody-somerville> troy_s, kwwii already produced something
<cody-somerville> troy_s, But if you want to create something, I can put it up too
<troy_s> cody-somerville: Ok great.
<troy_s> cody-somerville: Sorry I was in bed.
<troy_s> lol
<cody-somerville> :)
<savvas> kwwii: how about this for a p2p icon? :) http://savvas.radevic.com/previews/bittorrent-icon/p2p.svg
<savvas> or something around that idea
<_MMA_> savvas: I would personally try to go a little more realistic and less like Tango. Human has a bit more realism. I'd go for that.
<_MMA_> ï»¿kwwii: Which reminds me. Human needs a base image to use for mimetypes.
<_MMA_> Text file kinda backgrounds.
<savvas> hm.. _MMA_ you mean change the colours?
<_MMA_> The style.
<_MMA_> The thick outline is too Tango.
<savvas> you're right I guess, I should propose it to the tango team haha
<_MMA_> Sure.
<_MMA_> Oh... There are OO.o images in Human we could use.
<savvas> well I tried to propose this one for gnome-icon-theme for application/x-bittorrent: http://savvas.radevic.com/previews/bittorrent-icon/bittorrent.svg
<savvas> but i ended up finding out that the mime type was from the freedesktop package :\
<savvas> plus, they didn't like it, the globe was a cliche they were trying to avoid heh
 * thorwil subscribes to brainstorm ml
<DanaG> Dang, that stretches-only-from-left issue sucks.
<_MMA_> DanaG: Just happened recently. Bug filed. It will be taken care of.
<DanaG> Cool.  I figured that'd be so.
<DanaG> Hmm, for background color around non-fullscreen images... would it look good to take average of each edge and project outwards?
<DanaG> Kind of like the edge-illumination thing on some TVs.
#ubuntu-artwork 2008-04-25
<DanaG> Do you know of any place that makes clear case-skin things?
<DanaG> It'd be especially ideal if it'd end at the very edge of the art itself.
<DanaG> And be almost-permanent, but removable without damaging the surface.
<troy_s> DanaG: Look to a customizable option such as what is used in airbrushing circles -- Stretchfrisk is such an item.
<DanaG> heh, starting typing 'stretch' in google box:
<troy_s> DanaG: It is a plastic frisket that works well stretched across motorcycle helmets and other non flat surfaces.  Normally it is used to mask off areas for airbrushing, but you could probably use it as a temporary skin.
<DanaG> top suggestion: stretch marks.
<DanaG> It's an interesting insight into the population at large.
<troy_s> DanaG: Stretchfrisk is a trademark name.
<troy_s> DanaG: Basically, it is a stretchable frisket.
<DanaG> Odd.. not google'able.
<DanaG> Oh, suh-weet, skinit.com does transparent, it seems.
<DanaG> Okay.... I can't tell.
<DanaG> Anyway, I need to go to bed.
<DanaG> Bedtime for me.
<DanaG> Fri Apr 25 01:03:17 PDT 2008
<psyke83> hey
<psyke83> kwwii: damn, I know this is late, but I found out how to darken the background of the scrollbar with the Murrine engine. Too bad I didn't figure it out before release :(
<psyke83> that's one aspect of the Murrine engine I didn't like (as it's hard to see the scrollbar from the background)
<kwwii> psyke83: save that update and we can include it sometime in the future
<psyke83> kwwii, sure
<psyke83> kwwii, http://connogriofa.googlepages.com/Human-Murrine-Work_v0.1.tar.gz
<kwwii> psyke83: cool, thanks
#ubuntu-artwork 2008-04-26
<tuxice> so is the idea for intrepid still orange and black?
<tuxice> is everyone here on the ubuntu-artwork alunchpad team
<tuxice> **launchpad
<kwwii> TuxIce: no the idea is not necessarily orange and black
<kwwii> there will be more information soon
<kwwii> but we will definitely stay with brown of some type
<TuxIce> like how soon :D
<kwwii> anyway, I am out for the afternoon
<kwwii> very soon
<TuxIce> sweet
<Erosion> hello
<Erosion> where can i get the ubuntu font?
<TuxIce> erosion: it is called ttf-ubuntu-title
<TuxIce> hey has anyone considered putting the menu text (applications > places >system) in ttf-ubuntu?
<terlmann> this room has died
<terlmann> I guess I killed it.
<terlmann> well I told you unless you listened to me, ubuntus artwork would suck major balls. Didnt I say that? hmm.
<terlmann> well it does as far as what the typical outsider can see, but thats kind of pointless.
<terlmann> right?
<terlmann> well Ive to be going now but be warned:
<terlmann> as soon as this semester is over
<terlmann> Im getting into artwork full-blast
<terlmann> dispite the fact I am actually a coder
<kwwii> gosh, I just can't wait...finally someone who knows everything better
<thorwil> kwwii: hi, have i missed something? or someone? :)
<kwwii> thorwil: hehe, yeah....no worries, I was not talking about you :p
<troy_s> terlman == ftard.
#ubuntu-artwork 2008-04-27
<DanaG> Wow, this channel becomes way quiet after a release.
<BHSPitLappy> DanaG, are you not in here much?  It's like this all the time :)
<BHSPitLappy> It's only ever troy or you or kwii talking :P
<BHSPitLappy> troy_s, heh, was he following up on a previous rant?
<troy_s> BHSPitLappy: Here...
<troy_s> <terlmann> this room has died
<troy_s> <terlmann> I guess I killed it.
<troy_s> <terlmann> well I told you unless you listened to me, ubuntus artwork would suck major balls. Didnt I say that? hmm.
<troy_s> <terlmann> well it does as far as what the typical outsider can see, but thats kind of pointless.
<troy_s> <terlmann> right?
<troy_s> <terlmann> well Ive to be going now but be warned:
<troy_s> <terlmann> as soon as this semester is over
<troy_s> <terlmann> Im getting into artwork full-blast
<troy_s> <terlmann> dispite the fact I am actually a coder
<BHSPitLappy> troy_s, uhh, that's the part that's in my scrollback :P
<troy_s> BHSPitLappy: Bugga ya
<troy_s> lol
<BHSPitLappy> way to waste another chunk of it
<elkbuntu> well someone thinks highly of themselves...
<BHSPitLappy> elkbuntu, glad to know it's going to be taken care of soon!  :P
<meridian> http://www.mindentbele.hu/kepek/480/mbkocsagosdesktop.jpg
<meridian> http://www.mindentbele.hu/kepek/480/mbdesktoprajz2.jpg
<meridian> http://www.mindentbele.hu/kepek/480/mbdesktoprajz.jpg
<troy_s> http://digg.com/linux_unix/The_New_Ubuntu_Login_Screen
#ubuntu-artwork 2009-04-20
<savvas> kwwii: sorry to bother you, but could you check if bug 349572 is a gnome-icon-theme problem?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 349572 in packagekit-gnome "packagekit-gnome .desktop files use not-existing icons" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/349572
<thorwil> digest mode should be disabled
<kwwii> hrm, where would be the best place to discuss suggested improvements for panel themeing?
<thorwil> kwwii: in what scope? currently the gnome people don't even know what to do with applets in that gnome shell thing
<thorwil> and a first attempt at making the gnome shell themeable is some ruby to change things in the code(!?)
<kwwii> thorwil: yeah, that was kinda what I was thinking too
<kwwii> thorwil: guess I want to make the existing gnome panel look halfway decent for karmic
<thorwil> kwwii: document the problem, define what we want as solution, see if it can be developed in-house as patch?
<kwwii> thorwil: yeah, already started that...just trying to figure out what to do with it when I am done :p
<andreasn> kwwii, #gnome-art proably? benzea or thos should know
<kwwii> andreasn: yeah, good point
<kwwii> andreasn: although I am guessing that most of what I want is more of a distro problem
<kwwii> like setting the gconf key to stretch the panel bg by default
<thorwil> kwwii: only tell us ubuntu people about it, wait until other will complain and bitch about going-alone and not contributing and all that ...  making it widel known that way ;)
<kwwii> we have a policy of not touching gconf keys when updating
<andreasn> maybe you should talk to vuntz in that case
<andreasn> what kind of stuff did you have in mind? like just a gradient or more advanced stuff like a pattern?
<andreasn> vuntz should be around in #gnome-hackers
<andreasn> on gimpnet
<andreasn> and he's in there talking about the panel _right now_
<kwwii> andreasn: thinking about how to allow a theme to set a gconf key :)
<andreasn> http://live.gnome.org/RoadMap/Artwork
<andreasn> "Get better panel theming. For example the panel could let the engine render on top of the background image. So it would be possible to make the panel transparent from the theme."
<andreasn> can't remember if it was benzea or Cimi that wanted to work on it though
<kwwii> hehe, that all sounds very good
 * thorwil would like to see combined vertical and horizontal multi-stop gradients and a transparency map
<kwwii> thorwil: well, the stuff i want to do with a pixmap does both of those - the cheap way :)
<savvas> can someone check bug 349572 please? Should those icons be in gnome-icon-theme ?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 349572 in packagekit-gnome "packagekit-gnome .desktop files use not-existing icons" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/349572
<kwwii> savvas: yeah, just commented on it...not much we can do now for jaunty
<savvas> thanks :)
<andreasn> savvas, packagekit specific icons should be installed by packagekit
<savvas> andreasn: that's the direct answer I was looking for :) so gnome-icon-theme is invalid?
<andreasn> I don't recall that any icons were removed from gnome-icon-theme recently
<savvas> ok, I'll have to forward it upstream :) thank you both!
<andreasn> np, hope it works out
<savvas> oh crap, I thought packagekit-gnome -> gnome was upstream whereas it is freedesktop, heh :)
<kwwii> thorwil: btw, I asked arusha (christina kokott) to have a look at the wiki structure and report any ideas, etc
<kwwii> thorwil: it's good because a) she is a new member and has never seen it before) and b) this is what she does for a living :)
<thorwil> kwwii: cool :)
 * thorwil browses http://www.christina-kokott.de
 * thorwil continues with http://kokott.co.uk
<dashua> Just ordered a Mini-9 w/ Bluetooth, Webcam, Ubuntu for $199.
<dashua> Not bad.
<knome> hmm
<kwwii> hope you have tiny fingers
<kwwii> other than that the machines are awesome
<dashua> Ha, yeah.
<dashua> I hope Jaunty runs good on it.
<dashua> I'm sure it will.
<dashua> I need to study for an exam all summer and this will be easier to transport than my Dell XPS m1530.
<dashua> Much more expendable too.
<thorwil> use one of these if fingers not tiny enough: http://www.print-speed.de/images/product_images/popup_images/2083_0.jpg :>
<dashua> I was looking at the 10 but RAM is locked at 1 Gig.  Not so good.
<SiDi> dashua: im jealous
<dashua> thorwil: Is that a pencil sharpener?
<dashua> SiDi: I wanted to score one before when they $199, but no bluetooth or webcam.
<thorwil> dashua: that, too
<dashua> Now, it's a good deal.
<kwwii> dashua: we've been doing all our testing on mini-9's
<dashua> kwwii: Sweet.
<dashua> Compiz run good, do you know?
<dashua> I have a feeling I'll have to mess with UXA.
<SiDi> dashua: they're more expensive here. and dell france charges for ubuntu. i tried to get a vostro with no os or ubuntu, it was 750 â¬ for the crappy hardware, while for 710 i had almost the best hardware with vista
<kwwii> dashua: yes, it runs great
<dashua> kwwii: Man, I am getting excited :D
<dashua> SiDi: This is a Vosto
<dashua> http://configure.us.dell.com/dellstore/config.aspx?oc=bqcw9nz&c=us&l=en&s=bsd&cs=04&kc=productdetails~laptop-vostro-a90&dgc=BF&cid=7421&lid=197378
<SiDi> dashua: i meant a 1510:p
<dashua> Man, Jaunty is going to boot like the wind with an SSD.
<dashua> SiDi: Ah
<dashua> Yeah, the Ubuntu spec'd Dells are as impressive as their Windows counterparts
<dashua> I bought this Dell w/ Vista which lasted about 20 minutes.
<dashua> But there was no XPS m1530 when I bought, just the 1330
<dashua> *are not
<SiDi> the fact is that here its not legal to sell it with an os and not to offer the same one without os :P
<dashua> Damn
<dashua> Yeah, there was a box for exporting outside the U.S.
<SiDi> dashua: i cant believe the PCs are the same and the ubuntu one is $100 cheaper
<SiDi> i do wish they were offering so decent offers here in france :|
<dashua> Maybe they changed. Before their prices were really that good.
<dashua> weren't*
<SiDi> kwwii: are you around ?
<kwwii> SiDi: wassup?
<SiDi> I wanted to know where i could grab the sources of jaunty's gdm
<SiDi> apart from a jaunty installed partition since i'm having trouble with mine :p
<SiDi> i'd like to check how you did to edit the gdm menus in your theme
<kwwii> check the source in launchpad
<SiDi> thanks
<kwwii> http://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ubuntu-gdm-themes for instance
<SiDi> thanks, found it already
<SiDi> i sometimes dont think about the obvious solutions :D
<kwwii> sometimes I want to suggest lmgtfy.com to people :p
<kwwii> time for sleep..night all
<SiDi> night kwwii
#ubuntu-artwork 2009-04-21
<robsta> hiya
<kwwii> hi robsta
<SiDi> hello
<robsta> thorwil, around?
<thorwil> robsta: no, i have to go outside, reste vom efeu von einer garagenwand abkratzen :}
<thorwil> back in 1 or 2 hours
<robsta> thorwil: have fun, good work so far, but we need to talk about composite widgets
<thorwil> robsta: back
<robsta> thorwil: so, composite widgets don't work just by drawing them up
<thorwil> robsta: i know that's why i added a layer
<robsta> oh? tell me more
<thorwil> robsta: the different arrows and buttons for SpinButton and ComboBoxEntry are free standing on the widget-graphics layer
<thorwil> robsta: but have the base widget graphic as background on a "context" layer
<thorwil> robsta: one more layer that needs to be hidden on export, but you can work on the sub-widgets in context
<robsta> hmm
<robsta> not sure i get it
<thorwil> robsta: get the latest pioneer.svg, please
<robsta> thorwil: there is no "export"
<thorwil> robsta: btw, you should subscribe to receive commit messages
<robsta> thorwil: everything is done when the theme is loaded, things are located via plates
<robsta> thorwil: so we would need overlapping plates
<thorwil> robsta: what i meant with export is editing time vs using-time ;)
<robsta> ok
<thorwil> robsta: we already need to hide the background layer, right? at least to get alpha for rounded edges and such
<robsta> i think so
<robsta> thorwil: just looking at the plates, things make more sense now
<robsta> thorwil: but the up/down spin-button-arrow need to be on separate plates
<thorwil> robsta: ok
<thorwil> robsta: i wonder if those plates should have the exact size of the sub-widget graphics, or the size of the desired active area or what?
<robsta> thorwil: size of the active area
<thorwil> ok
<robsta> thorwil: arrows are drawn using CSS "background-image"
<thorwil> robsta: i will adjust the plates now. also started CheckButton yesterday
<thorwil> robsta: how is the entry drawn, then?
<thorwil> entry part of spinbox
<robsta> thorwil: that is an actual GtkEntry
<robsta> thorwil: but we have to hack things, so the arrow appear inside
<robsta> thorwil: will be challenging
<thorwil> robsta: sounds confusing. but the arrows will be drawn on top of the GtkEntry graphic, with proper alpha?
<robsta> thorwil: not sure yet
<robsta> thorwil: we need an entry that doesn't have the right border
<robsta> or better, the GtkSpinButton plate must not cover the arrows
<robsta> so basically spin-button will have 3 plates, "entry", "arrow-up", "arrow-down"
<robsta> the problem will then be that arrows are not redrawn when focus moves into the entry
<robsta> so we need a hack
<robsta> (if at all possible)
<robsta> thorwil: drop me a mail if you have any questions, i'm monitoring the repo
<thorwil> ok
<thorwil> so now the standing questions is whether it will be slicing or layering for the arrows
<robsta> thorwil: ?
<thorwil> robsta: what we just went through. starting one line above your "not sure yet" ;)
<robsta> thorwil: let me use my mad graphics skills http://www.gnome.org/~robsta/tmp/spin-button-plates.png
<robsta> this is how the plates will have to be arranged
<thorwil> robsta: with no overlap. that's slicing, then
<robsta> ok
<robsta> yes, sub-widgets are separate, not drawn on top of each other
<thorwil> so the "spin and combo context" layer can go. actually makes this simpler to handle
<robsta> yes, things are not composed in gtk
<robsta> everything is arranged in tiles, which makes it so hard to have sub-widgets appear "inside"
<thorwil> but it means you need to stretch the arrows for taller SpinButtons :(
<thorwil> robsta: couldn't you do a composite of the arrow background with arrow graphics that won't be stretched before passing that on?
<robsta> thorwil: think not, have to investigate
<thorwil> ok. i see the Human Spinbox has the focus frame drawn around the entry part, excluding the arrows. now i know why. sucks
<robsta> thorwil: afaik the spin button just draws arrow primitives next to the entry part
<robsta> thorwil: not saying it's impossible but needs hacks
<thorwil> i was under the impression all about gtk themeing is a hack? ;)
<robsta> that'd be too harsh
<robsta> it has its roots in the pre-css era, that explains a lot
<robsta> just like retrofitting css onto netscape 4 was problematic ...
<robsta> thorwil: anyway, will the theme stay with hard corners?
<robsta> or could we get like 3 px roundings some day?
<robsta> the arrows look very pointy too
<thorwil> robsta: drawing "traditional" arrow buttons wouldn't be a problem. easy way out regarding focus, but still the stretching problem
<thorwil> robsta: this theme has hard corners to be nonbuntu and to speed up the creation
<thorwil> robsta: if you really want changes you shall have them, but i would prefer to pull this through to then have a round of what-would-robsta-like
<robsta> thorwil: sure, maybe once i'm about to use it as my main theme
<thorwil> robsta: i expect a need for tweaks once we can see it in use in any case
<robsta> thorwil: i'll try to set up a theme this week, so at least TheWidgetFactory works
<thorwil> good
<robsta> ok, see you
<thorwil> cya!
#ubuntu-artwork 2009-04-22
<shadowh511> hi, all
<SiDi> ping knome
<knome> pong SiDi
<SiDi> hello:)
<knome> hi
<SiDi> I wanted to know if you had any idea how to change the roundness of scrollbars in a theme. i'm currently playing with murrinaXubuntu and i cant figure out how to do
<knome> hmm
<knome> can't remember directly
<knome> but i suppose it changes if you change the roundess
<knome> i mean the whole theme roundness
<SiDi> hm
<SiDi> it's like the only thing that doesnt change
<knome> haha.
<SiDi> really looks weird with roundness 20
<knome> the murrinaxubuntu isn't done for the new murrine engine
<SiDi> ow
<knome> SiDi, you should look here: https://code.launchpad.net/~murrine-themes-team/murrine-themes/common-gtkrc and change things in there
<SiDi> well anyways i just wanted to make it greenish :)
<knome> that's what we start to work on once we get jaunty out
<SiDi> Okey
<SiDi> roundness 20 : http://img512.imageshack.us/img512/715/capturenbl.png :|
<knome> ...haha
<knome> looks like a mac
<SiDi> Yes :D
<thorwil> http://abduzeedo.com/ultimate-typographic-logos-inspiration
<knome> 'lo
<knome> http://emonk.fi/open/xubuntu/9.04%20Jaunty/Release%20artwork/jaunty-release-0.9cody.png versus http://emonk.fi/open/xubuntu/9.04 Jaunty/Release artwork/jaunty-release-0.5.png
<knome> which one is better?
<knome> (http://emonk.fi/open/xubuntu/9.04%20Jaunty/Release%20artwork/jaunty-release-0.5.png for the latter link)
<SiDi> (also say that the mouse is probably on the way out, whatever version is kept)
<knome> ^
<savvas> is that the actual size or?
<SiDi> click on it :P its about 400x400
<knome> savvas, debatable.
<savvas> the "out on..." could use a brighter colour :)
<savvas> sorry "out 23rd" :)
<savvas> that whole paragraph I mean :P
<knome> savvas, what about the layour
<knome> *layout
<savvas> it's wonderful, but I'm not an artist :)
<knome> particularly how the xubuntu + jaunty text is aligned
<knome> which one is better?
<SiDi> savvas: we're actually having an argument (without blood though) about how the text should be aligned. so we want points of views from people here
<savvas> I'd prefer big letters, easier for the eye to catch
<savvas> and that's my medical opinion :)
<SiDi> kwwii: dashua : anyone around ?
<savvas> I love the background, is there an svg? :)
<SiDi> It's the Xubuntu Jaunty GDM :)
<knome> savvas, in the xubuntu-artwork source package
<SiDi> knome has the sources
<savvas> thank you!
<knome> savvas, that doesn't have the sun rays, though.
<knome> savvas, and it's a bit darker/less blue
<savvas> waaah! :)
<savvas> ok I'll wait for you finalize it then hehe
<savvas> or there won't be any other changes?
 * SiDi doesn't know
<knome> savvas, not for the background.
<savvas> oh oki doki
<knome> savvas, but this version is only for our release artwork.
<knome> savvas, the other one in the sources is the one we are shipping and we're fine with it :)
<savvas> is lp:~xubuntu-team/xubuntu-artwork/trunk updated? :)
<knome> savvas, yeah.
<knome> savvas, should be.
<knome> savvas, but not with this artwork :P
<knome> again.. ;P
<knome> just get the sources and look at it youself. there is many layers and the colors are relatively easy to change.
<knome> actually not layers but elements.
<savvas> hrm... main archive server is slowww..w.w
<savvas> knome: and since you're using the "jaunty jackalope" without any change, I'd fill up the gap between with bigger letters :P
<savvas> I stand for "jaunty-release-0.9cody.png" :)
<SiDi> I find it too "fat"
<SiDi> if you look at how the text is set on the 0.5, it's aligned in the bottom
<savvas> then remove the text
<SiDi> which looks much better for me :p
<savvas> jaunty jackalope is merely a codename, that shouldn't be visible to eye of a user :)
<SiDi> thats why its in blue and not in white ;)
<savvas> I am about 40 cm away and I can't read it :P
<SiDi> open it with your image viewer ^^firefox tends to resize images
<savvas> ah.. must be the fact that firefox shows it on the upper left
<savvas> I still vote for 0.9 :p
<savvas> damn lags
<BUGabundo> hi
<BUGabundo> where I can get jaunty artwork to print and set on a stand for jaunty launch?
<BUGabundo> hay fabsh. nice to see you here
<knome> BUGabundo, which jaunty artwork are you talking about?
<BUGabundo> anything we have
<BUGabundo> banners, cd covers
<BUGabundo> the shaband to put on a stand
#ubuntu-artwork 2009-04-23
<BoudhayanGupta> Hello! I just joined the Ubuntu Artwork community! I'm from India. How do I get started?
<kwwii> moin moin
<DaveCo> hello
<DaveCo> how can i help with artwork
<kwwii> DaveCo: check out the wiki to find out more
<kwwii> DaveCo: what are you good at? :)
<DaveCo> i made the banner for this ubuntu site: http://ubuntu.sg/
<DaveCo> and i have a graphics tablet, and have reasonable experience with gimp and photoshop, adobe illustator
<kwwii> hehe, with jaunty coming out today, you might want to update that
<kwwii> well, there are lots of things to do, you just have to find something
<DaveCo> yea
<kwwii> check out the wiki for more info and ideas...I think you might find something there
<DaveCo> i am updating it as we speak
<kwwii> look at what others have done, for instance
<DaveCo> but what is needed,
<kwwii> wallpapers, theme mockups, banners/posters, etc.
<DaveCo> or is it generaly just anything people make is extra
<kwwii> at this moment, there is little to nothing to be done because jaunty is being released today
<kwwii> but we are working towards karmic already
<kwwii> so you can start with the work on that, if you are interested
 * kwwii heads out for a smoke, brb
<DaveCo> ok
<DaveCo> so what is needed for karmic?
<knome> DaveCo, everything.
<DaveCo> well, im new to this, so if you give me somthing that needs doing, il do it
<knome> DaveCo, see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Incoming/Karmic and what others have done.
<kwwii> the one thing to know is that you can present ideas for the official karmic artwork but there are no promises that it will be used
<DaveCo> thats fine
<kwwii> the best thing to do is to have a concept of your own which you would like to work on
<DaveCo> i just like to help :-)
<kwwii> we can help you realize that, etc
<knome> alternatives are the best help atm
<kwwii> right
<knome> then we can choose the direction to go
<DaveCo> ok kool.
<DaveCo> thanks for your guideance :-)
<thorwil> hello arusha. say, does you nick have anything to do with Marusha? :)
<arusha> thorwil, hi, no nothing at all, its a town in tansania
<thorwil> ah, ok
<robsta1> hiya
<thorwil> hi robsta1
<lianimator> anyone here know how to edit a video to make it play "fast-forwarded"?
<robsta> how's things thorwil
<thorwil> robsta: no more heating at my workplace ...brrrr .... and self?
<robsta> thorwil: way cool :P
<robsta> thorwil: we may have to introduce a custom css property to get the arrows inside buttons right
<robsta> e.g. "-ccss-stacking: border background;"
<robsta> means that the background is drawn on top of the border
<robsta> so we can do border using border-image and have the arrow using background-image composed on top
<thorwil> robsta: custom css property is better than not being able to do that, right?
<thorwil> robsta: gotta go and dig a few holes in the garden
<robsta> guess so
<SiDi> hi
<thorwil> hi SiDi
<SiDi> Hey thorwil. What's up ?
<thorwil> SiDi: thinking about widget design. what's up on your side?
<thorwil> guess i will install 9.04 this weekend
<SiDi> im fine
<SiDi> gonna get ready for moving to family's home :P tomorrow's my birthday (and im quite happy canonical offers me a nice present every year :D)
<thorwil> heh
<SiDi> knome: hello ?
<knome> SiDi, ?
<SiDi> Can you guys read me on #xubuntu-devel ? :/
<knome> uh...
<knome> let me see
<solstice> hi. i am looking for cd cover to print fir 9.04 cd i have burnt. but i an't find them on either ubuntu site. it's always a pin to find them. i can't even find the one for the old release. whre are they ?
<thorwil> solstice: recently saw something on planet ubunu
<thorwil> solstice: http://leogg.wordpress.com/2009/04/20/ubuntu-cd-labels/
<solstice> ah yeah. i found it by another way
<solstice> thorwil: thnx
<thorwil> np
<solstice> but i know i found some on ubuntu.com or wiki or ...
<solstice> at least for previous release
<thorwil> it's a shame this wasn't tackled inside the artwork team
<solstice> in fact it was generic ubuntu cd  cover without any release specific text. just a photo (3 people) ubuntu logo and legalese.
<SiDi> kwwii: you are the one in charge of ubuntu studio, right ?
#ubuntu-artwork 2009-04-24
<darkmatter> http://www.flickr.com/photos/92826085@N00/3469709955/ bleh
<SiDi> Hello
<kwwii> hi SiDi
<SiDi> Hello
<SiDi> kwwii: i'm not sure but i think you're the one who manages the ubuntu studio project, right ?
<kwwii> I was on a airplane last night, I missed your question
<SiDi> There was someone yesterday on #u-release-party who was asking for info about it
<SiDi> Asking where were the cd images, or something like that (i can't remember ^^)
<kwwii> no, I work for Canonical and do user experience and design implementation
<kwwii> for ubuntu
<SiDi> Oh ok, sorry
<kwwii> cory does studio
<SiDi> I see
<kwwii> _MMA_
<kwwii> but he is not around right  now it seems
<SiDi> Well, he hasn't been much on IRC lately :)
<kwwii> http://ubuntustudio.org/
<kwwii> ?
<SiDi> Yeh, i watched. the guy was asking for the release notes for 9.04
<SiDi> and they're marked as coming soon
<SiDi> so i guess its been adressed, or he didnt take the time to read.
<SiDi> Thanks, though
<andreasn> kwwii, no connection on the plane? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LoGYx35ypus
<kwwii> andreasn: lol, I wish
<kwwii> andreasn: really nice, that clip
<kwwii> rotary telephones, televisions which you had to get up and change the channel on a dial...
<andreasn> "give it a minute, it's going to space"
<kwwii> no doubt
<christel> hi lovely people, im wondering if you can help me - or alternatively point me in the right direction
<christel> you may be aware that canonical made a fairly substantial contribution to the pdpc, the organisation behind freenode, in that regard we wanted to stick their logo on our webpage (http://freenode.net) -- however, using a stock canonical logo makes it a bit too dominant so i was wondering if anyone either could help do some magic with it, or alternatively point me at the right canonical people to ask :)
<SiDi> Hm, they should have a channel :)
<SiDi> otherwise they probably will be a few canonical employees at #ubuntu-motu. You can aswell ask kwwii, he works there
<christel> <3
<christel> thank you
<SiDi> christel, you're welcome ^.^
<thorwil> happy birthday, SiDi!
<SiDi> thorwil, wee thanks <3
<thorwil> :)
<SiDi> How did you know ? :)
<thorwil> you mentioned it yesterday ;)
<SiDi> oh true :P
<thorwil> kwwii: how should we deal with stuff like https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Incoming/Karmic/UserInteraction?
<thorwil> kwwii: create a section outside of the current incoming, knowing that these things never make it (and if they would, take more than one cycle)?
<thorwil> or outright discourage it?  though i very well know the temptation
<kwwii> thorwil: I think that could be moved into a subsection of incoming perhaps as it is not release specific, really
<kwwii> or above incoming somewhere appropriate
<kwwii> I think the more the design and desktop experience team work in public, the more of these we will get
<thorwil> perhaps. currently i deem it nearly impossible to create concepts of that scope that will be picked up.
<kwwii> yes, I agree and I am not really sure how good it is to express all of that in a document that size in that way
<thorwil> kwwii: i will suggest Incoming/Concepts on the list and generally put this to discussion
<kwwii> thorwil: good idea
<andreasn> kwwii, I like the time zone selection thing in the jaunty install process. Did you draw that?
<kwwii> andreasn: yepp...it was a lot of work :)
<kwwii> it's all one *really* big svg
<thorwil> only few months after i suggested it in a report, eh? :)
<kwwii> thorwil: sorry to say, but I made it about 4-5 months ago :p
<kwwii> great minds think alike
<savvas> great job with the artwork people!
<kwwii> actually, it was something that I had been talking to evan about for a long time
<thorwil> kwwii: said report is older than that
<kwwii> and making the new one was his idea, so I can't claim that anyway :p
<thorwil> but in the reaction i had been told that a lack of a freely licensed map hindered the idea before
<savvas> the time zone during the install? much better than the old ones :)
<kwwii> right, I drew that myself
<kwwii> it took a week and a half just to make the paths
<savvas> lots of cups of coffee eh? :P
<kwwii> no doubt
<kwwii> well, time to fire up the grill
<Viper550> hey, long-time no see
<kwwii> /quit
<SiDi> My system is so broken :(
<darkmatter> SPAM! http://www.flickr.com/photos/92826085@N00/3471972138/
<kwwii> yes, indeed
#ubuntu-artwork 2009-04-25
<armegadon> would this be the place to get some help with a gtk theme?
<SiDi> not likely, but go ahead :p
<armegadon> well i'm using this theme as the base http://lassekongo83.deviantart.com/art/NOOTO-GTK-115911611
<armegadon> and i'm trying to get the panels and scrollbars from the jaunty dust sand theme
<SiDi> aw
<armegadon> also, the base theme requires the aurora engine, i got it from getdeb
<SiDi> thats a lot of tweaking in the gtkrc file of the theme :P
<armegadon> yea :(
<armegadon> i'm used to pixmap themes where its images not settings
<SiDi> i'm used to css 2.1 :$
<armegadon> :S
<armegadon> so you wouldn't be able to assist me?
<SiDi> well, i guess you'd have to grab the style block responsible for the panels in dust sand's gtkrc
<SiDi> and copy it to yours
<SiDi> for the scrollbar, i suppose its linked to the used engine, and i dont know how to do
<armegadon> i can't find exactly where it gets the panel part :s
<SiDi> you'll also have to pick dust's colours and redeclare them inside the panel's block
<SiDi> Ah, i don't know either ;)
<armegadon> lol
<armegadon> i would have stuck with the pixmap engine, but i find the murrine and aurora ones are a lot prettier
<blindskull13> how long has it been since Ubuntu's art page had an overhaul
<ryanprior> blindskull13: There's a thread re: an alternate on the mailing list right now.
<ryanprior> blindskull13: If it gains wide acceptance it might become the default.
<blindskull13> yeah i know about that
<blindskull13> i was just wondering when the last time was
<ryanprior> blindskull13: Well, wikis are sort of an incremental theme. Go back step by step through the history and decide when the change is big enough to be considered an "overhaul" by your standards. :-)
<blindskull13> ok, thanks
<SiDi> hi
 * thorwil waves from a fresh jaunty install
<SiDi> Heya thorwil
<SiDi> You made the good choice xD
<thorwil> so far it's alright
<thorwil> not using nvidia drivers or my wacom, yet :)
<SiDi> mine went all wrong, lots of troubles with xfce's settings :(
<NewDesign> Hi
<SiDi> ah damn ! i sent a mail to the ML without editing the object again T_T
<knome> fail
<Skiessi> why is warty-final-ubuntu.png with a png extension even though it's in jpeg format?
<kwwii> because of a problem with updating
<kwwii> we point the default pic to a certain name so it has to stay that way even though jpeg is better at ccompressing the pic
<kwwii> nautilus still handels it correctly so there is no real problem
<Skiessi> okay
<kwwii> the problem is in the update process and changing gconf settings
#ubuntu-artwork 2009-04-26
<kwwii> we don't want to overwrite anyones settings
<Skiessi> and adding a link would just duplicate it...
<Skiessi> in the background menu
<kwwii> anyway, time for sleep...anything else?
<Skiessi> yeah
<Skiessi> http://skiessi.users.sourceforge.net/simple-ubuntu.png I removed the unused alpha channel and ran it through advpng
<Skiessi> about 15% smaller
<Skiessi> if it's any use
<kwwii> wow, that is a bit smaller than what we accomplished for the release, or?
<Skiessi> yes
<kwwii> we worked on it a bit at the end to reduce the size
<kwwii> thanks, I'll see what I can do
<Skiessi> okay
<kwwii> for now, sleep
<kwwii> see you
<Skiessi> night
<SiDi> Night
<RPG_Master> The Breathe Icons are beautiful!!!
<RPG_Master> That is all.
<SiDi> Hi
<SiDi> hi thorwil
<thorwil> hi SiDi
<SiDi> how are you ?
<thorwil> i just learned that i have an SVG that kills Nautilus if i open the folder it is in
<SiDi> Nice :P
<thorwil> and that inkscape will use the wrong gradients if you import stuff that has gradients with the same IDs
 * SiDi suggests you report a private security bug against Nautilus before any windows fanboy spy claims this is a "super virus" svg :p
<thorwil> boom, half and hour if not more wasted instead of being prodcutive
<SiDi> You know, i've been wasting the last two weeks in debugging, if that can make you feel better, 1h30 isnt that much :D
<thorwil> SiDi, what are you debugging?
<SiDi> My BitTorrent client
<SiDi> i'm happy, it received 2 pieces out of 2725 today (fast, isnt it ?)
<thorwil> heh
<SiDi> hey dashua
<SiDi> Do you still have the latest version of rust on your PC (the one posted on the ML) ? it's not on LP anymore and you didnt update it in gnome-look
<dashua> SiDi: bzr branch lp:~dashua/+junk/Karmic-Themes.  Moved it.
<SiDi> dashua, okey thanks
<dashua> Should be the latest version.  Two themes in that branch, but mostly similar
<dashua> Np :)
<SiDi> Aw, looks like is the one i already had
<SiDi> or my panel didnt get updated
<dashua> I didn't push that fix yet you discovered.
<SiDi> well, my theme didnt get updated
<SiDi> i'll see what it gives later and add it back
<SiDi> i hope i kept the mail i sent you :D
<dashua> I still have it.
<dashua> Oh my.  That 15 minutes of Windows 7 was painful.  No easy way to go from beta - rc?
<SiDi> dashua, i respect your courage.
<ryanprior> SiDi: Do not confuse courage with foolery.
<ryanprior> dashua: I trust you have learned your lesson. ;-)
<SiDi> ryanprior, :D
<dashua> Ha, well I already had it this laptop since beta, but have not booted into in months.
<dashua> Wanted to try a quick update to RC, no go.  So damn slow too.
<dashua> I guess I'm just spoiled.
<SiDi> dashua, the price to pay for daring !
<dashua> I can't live without my wobbly windows.  It's really become a part of me ;p
 * SiDi suicides.
<thorwil> arg. audio skips when switching workspaces or opening/closing windows now
<SiDi> Twice.
<dashua> thorwil: Jaunty?
<thorwil> yeah
<dashua> Damn, my experience has been pretty flawless since Alpha 3, but pulse was giving some trouble.
<thorwil> i already switched everything in sound prefs to alsa. do i have to rip out pulse audio, or something?
<SiDi> dashua, same
<SiDi> alphas were perfect
<SiDi> now my max volume is much lower than under intrepid
<SiDi> and yeh, i did remove pulse !
<dashua> I don't think you have to purge pulse just switch every over to alsa.
<SiDi> dashua, it was already set to alsa
<SiDi> yet pulse was launching itself
<SiDi> and i had no sound on my OS
<dashua> Damn
<ryanprior> thorwil: I'm going to be working on a CSS-based theme engine this summer but want to do a brainstorm / input session with artists in the community so that I have an idea going in of what themers need. Can you help me organize that?
<SiDi> i removed it (reinstalled a little after due to dependencies :x)
<SiDi> im on xfce/alsa anyways
<SiDi> ryanprior, css 2.1 or 3 ?
<ryanprior> SiDi: neither precisely, because some web-centric css concepts don't really map to GUI windows and some GUI concepts aren't represented in CSS at present. I think it will be close to CSS3, though.
<SiDi> okey :)
<thorwil> ryanprior, guess i might. but are you aware of Robert Staudingers gtk-css-engine?
<dashua> I'm convinced the only to way to get a modern decent theme is to either a) develop a completely new engine b) mix engines.
<dashua> I'm running out of ideas.
<SiDi> i was in fear that themers would have to use float:right everywhere for right-aligning blocks :D
<ryanprior> thorwil: I am, but I'm not writing an engine for gtk, so there's potential for a little more flexibility.
<SiDi> dashua, yeh after reading some gtkrc i noticed most of the stuff was actually about chosing the good engine option, thus we need new engines for really *new* UIs :/
<dashua> SiDi: I agree.
<thorwil> ryanprior, for qt?
<ryanprior> thorwil: Nope, not any engine that people are using much. It's called ecere and a basic version is available now, but this summer we're hoping to beef it up significantly and make it a more attractive platform.
<dashua> SiDi: http://www.ubuntu-pics.de/bild/13038/screenshot_009_1PIg2m.png . Few mods, trying different bg colors
<SiDi> dashua, the windows 7 folder hurts my eyes too much
<SiDi> i cant see the theme
<SiDi> :<
<dashua> Ha, me too.  It's taking up 3 gig of space as well =/
<SiDi> about my point of view, i globally like it
<SiDi> the metacity is sexy
<SiDi> but i'd really like you to make a screenshot of this with a flat toolbar instead of gradient one :)
<ryanprior> I must say, breathe is gearing up to be pretty sexy, moreso than I thought early on. Confidence is gaining.
<dashua> Alright,  I will make another version.
<dashua> ryanprior: Very much so.  I've been using it for quite some time.
<thorwil> ryanprior, the shortcomings of gtk i found so far are: lack of prelight on menus, no depressed state on entries (debatable), compound widgets like SpinButtons are handled like 2 widgets, so you can't draw a focus rectangle around the whole widget (without tricks, at least)
<SiDi> dashua, <3
<thorwil> ryanprior, be sure to talk with dilomo (Anton Kerezov) and whoever else you can get a hold on, who managed to deliver a solid theme
<ryanprior> thorwil: What I'm hoping to do is build a list of shortcomings with other gui toolkits and facilitate some discussion on what best practices should be for gui building going forward. Should I post a request for comments to the mail list?
<thorwil> ryanprior, sure. consider to also target lists for gtk and kde/qt. maybe also windows and mac theming
<ryanprior> thorwil: ecere aims to be a cross-platform toolkit; themes should look the same across platforms.
<ryanprior> thorwil: Where can I find gtk and qt target lists?
<thorwil> ryanprior, gnome-themes-list@gnome.org
<thorwil> perhaps the plain gtk list http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gtk-list
<ryanprior> Ah, I misread what you wrote. I thought you meant target lists as in targets for future development or something.
<ryanprior> You mean to send my request for comments also to gtk- and qt-related lists.
<thorwil> yeah
 * thorwil feels better after ripping pulse out of his system
<thorwil> good night!
#ubuntu-artwork 2010-04-26
<zniavre> good morning
<zniavre> im looking for the first version of ubuntu-mono do you think i can find them again ?
<sanderqd> zniavre_, try finding the bzr branch in launchpad, it should contain the full package history
<zniavre> i can see the full changelog but not the full archive of packages
<vish> zniavre: get it from the bzr branch , it is there in the packagers branch
<vish> zniavre: you have to pull on that rev.. bzr branch lp:blahblah -r 4
<vish> rather ..   lp:~ubuntu-art-pkg/+junk/ubuntu-mono
<zniavre> grrrr i must be dumb ....
<zniavre> in fact i just want the first "enveloppe"
<vish> zniavre: just do $ bzr branch lp:~ubuntu-art-pkg/+junk/ubuntu-mono -r 1
<zniavre> Ho ho ho   big thank you
<zniavre> :o)
<vish> np.. :)
<darkmatter> vish: gonna have an improved wip in a sec. I art killing some useless bits in the sidebar. gonna keep bookmarks/library and history (maybe tags.. dunno) drop in computer, network and home as simple links.
<vish> darkmatter: a quick mockup of the toolbar icons i was mentioning earlier.. > http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1325768/icons.png  basically, drop the use of shadows and kill the depth perspective  .. probably use symbolic icons instead
<vish> heh , we could consider using "box" buttons, but then we'd end up with a copy of Finder ;p
<darkmatter> vish: yeah. it's the same thing I was talking about as well. not necessarily symbolic as such, but glyphic none the less
<vish> we need to kill the shadow for toolbar icons!
<darkmatter> I think icons in the traditional sense could be dropped for everything except applications and a 'few' data types where there isn't really any other solution. things like music, video, documents could use thumbnails, album art, etc. it's also a matter of how we display them to the user
<darkmatter> vish: that's why I opt for 'Library' instead of places. we need view based on content. images in a galler, media in a 'media browser' view (for a lack of a better term) etc
 * vish bbiab
<darkmatter> and go less hierarchical, more nom with basic displays as well. kill the traditional icon view and do something a bit more hybrid
<kwwii> vish: hey, I assigned a bug to you about humanity volume icons
<kwwii> bug #570124
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 570124 in humanity-icon-theme "Indicator-sound's volume zero image is incorrectly aligned" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/570124
 * vish looks
<vish> kwwii: hehe , that was the change that was done for the sound menu specs ;p
 * vish glad to revert
<darkmatter> vish: yay or nay? http://img143.imageshack.us/img143/4972/nautilusredowip.png
<kwwii> vish: it is about the placement of the icon on the page in comparison to the others
<vish> !test
<ubottu> hrm?
<vish> bah!
<vish> darkmatter: maybe the bookmarks can be the lower
<vish> darkmatter: hehe , btw , you've misaligned the keyboard in the computer ;p
<darkmatter> vish: did not! the g-i-t guys did!
<vish> darkmatter: huh, right!
<merbit> hello, is there an alternative font of the new ubuntu logo I could use, until the font is released?
<kwwii> merbit: nope, the font is not ready yet and won't be for some time
<merbit> ok thanks :)
<vish> kwwii: can you add it to the topic?
<kwwii> vish: yes, good idea
* kwwii changed the topic of #ubuntu-artwork to: Channel for the community artwork team | New font and visual identity not released yet. | Wiki:  http://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork | Mailing list: http://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-art
* kwwii changed the topic of #ubuntu-artwork to: Channel for the community artwork team | New font and visual identity not released yet | Wiki:  http://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork | Mailing list: http://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-art
<merbit> I bet you get that question a lot, hehe
<vish> merbit: everyday ;)
<knome> yup, 9 days in a week somebody comes asking that.
<darkmatter> vish: I'm trying to decide if the 'Home' in the sidebar is overly redundant, since it's in the pathbar too... hmmm. As for the general layout decision, the rational is Personal > System, which is why I stuck computer, network, and trash under everything else
<vish> darkmatter: home redundant duplications..? yes ;)
 * vish recalls a time when even knome was asking.. but atleast it was for a distribution release :)
<merbit> :P
<knome> vish, that was because i was promised some stuff by canonical employees ;P
<thorwil> http://wiki.ubuntu-it.org/AldoLatino/UbuntuLogo
<kwwii> thorwil: hrm, that sucks but to be honest, the logos and stuff are nearly ready (as in we are proofing the information now for mistakes)
<kwwii> so we'll be pushing the real stuff out in the next couple of days anyway
<thorwil> kwwii: of course it sucks. if i wasn't such a kind soul, i could claim you guys where asking for it ;)
<kwwii> thorwil: lol, indeed
<thorwil> the link to that page came form ubuntu-marketing list
<kwwii> next time we completely change things we'll do a bit better
<thorwil> cool. only a few complete changes until there will be a smooth one :)
<darkmatter> vish: sidebar looks much better now http://img17.imageshack.us/img17/8093/nautilusredowip1.png
 * vish groans at banshee 
<vish> darkmatter: http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_qg0qAwZ_-N8/S9QGemTuV_I/AAAAAAAAAD8/6yAmxEJeFPc/s1600/explorer.jpg ;)
<darkmatter> what about explorer? don't make me hurt you vitch :P
<vish> darkmatter: hehe , not that it is wrong to look similar to explorer, but you effectively ended up with that [except for the history ofcourse ;p]
<darkmatter> vish: actually I ended up with the london wireframe mockups with a prettier sidebar. so die :P
<vish> darkmatter: admit it! you are now a Windows fanboy ;p
<darkmatter> bite. something. old. and. stale. and. die. ;p
<sudo-su> hello
<kwwii> hi all
<kwwii> hi pablo
<fabio> ciaooooooo
<fabio> buonasera a tutti
<fabio> non mi vÃ  di parlÃ  inglese, quindi se c'Ã¨ qualcuno che mi capisce ben venga :)
<fabio> c'Ã¨ qualcuno attivo?
<fabio> :)
<fabio> :)
<fabio> :|
<fabio> :(
<fabio> ;(
<fabio> vado via
<fabio> bye bye!
#ubuntu-artwork 2010-04-27
<directhex> is a GDM theme update happening before release, or is lucid shipping with karmic's brown GDM?
<sanderqd> directhex: lucid already has a purple gdm here
<directhex> is that purple? pretty browny purple
<directhex> yeah, i spose it's got a purple tinge to it, looking at karmic screenshots
<directhex> but i could just be fooled by the high brightness on my laptop
<darkmatter> vish: http://vimeo.com/11035614 :D
<fabio> hi!
* kwwii changed the topic of #ubuntu-artwork to: Channel for the community artwork team | New Visual Identity Guidelines coming very soon! | Wiki:  http://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork | Mailing list: http://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-art
#ubuntu-artwork 2010-04-28
<zniavre> good morning
<vish> kwwii: Bug #567942 , is simple , we just need to add the new logo in the 32px and 48px sizes
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 567942 in ubuntu-mono "Wrong ubuntu icon is used in item list" [Low,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/567942
<kwwii> vish: ahhh, right
<kwwii> vish: hadn't seen that bug yet
<kwwii> easily fixable, but not for lucid anymore
<vish> yup...
<kwwii> thorwil: ping?
<thorwil> kwwii: pong
<kwwii> sooooo
<kwwii> drum roll please
<kwwii> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/VisualIdentity
<kwwii> ta-da
<kwwii> we will be spreading this info the correct wiki pages, etc
<andreasn> sweet, thanks!
<kwwii> vish: have you registered your nick with freenode?
<kwwii> vish: I just tried to op you and it said you were not
<vish> kwwii: yeah , i'm registered .. also using the ubuntu cloak
 * vish keeping fingers crossed.. trying new upstream kernel
<kwwii> vish: hehe, my laptop simply died today
<kwwii> two shopping days before two weeks of meetings (for me)
<kwwii> vish: so "vish" is your registered nick?
<vish> kwwii: yup
<kwwii> hehe
<kwwii> now it worked
<vish> hehe :D
<kwwii> I guess the first thing to do is change the topic
<vish> kwwii: i had probably just logged in when you tried earlier  ;)
<kwwii> indeed
<vish> kwwii: did you notice the names of the pdf files? they are named *K*ubuntu
<vish> rather the eps files
* kwwii changed the topic of #ubuntu-artwork to: Channel for the community artwork team | New Visual Identity Guidelines: http://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/VisualIdentity | Wiki:  http://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork | Mailing list: http://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-art
<kwwii> vish: nope, didnt't see that
<kwwii> which files
<kwwii> ?
<vish>  kwwii the files in   :  UBUNTU_BRANDMARK_AW/ubuntu_brandmark/Files_for_print/
<kwwii> I do not see a K anywhere
<vish> when you open the files .eps files the title bar will mention "Kubuntu_development_TM"
<kwwii> what are you opening it with?
<vish> kwwii: when they open in evince
<kwwii> I have tried the document viewer and inkscape and I do not see that
<kwwii> where do you see it with evince
<kwwii> ?
<vish> let me get the screenshot
<kwwii> vish: I appreciate this info
<kwwii> vish: as we need to fix it
<kwwii> but I cannot see it currently
<kwwii> also, my desktop runs jaunty with updates and my laptop died tonight
<kwwii> which really sucks
<kwwii> we lost a lot of information tonight becuase of that
<vish> kwwii: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1325768/Screenshot-1.png , notice the title bar
<vish> every file i tried is the same
<kwwii> btw, I sent the button svg to you..can you send the original back to me? I am afraid of losing it due to my disk failure
<vish> sure thing
<kwwii> vish: hrm, I cannot reproduce that on my machine
<kwwii> but again, I am not running lucid here
<kwwii> I cannot see any of that info in the metadata either
<vish> maybe some else on lucid can check it too
<kwwii> can you check the metadata of the file you are viewing to see what it says
<kwwii> and check the filename
<kwwii> it should show the file name
<kwwii> afaik
<vish> same
<kwwii> the filename from the download is k*?
<vish> kwwii: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1325768/Screenshot-Properties.png
<kwwii> hrm
<vish>  btw, it also mentions illustrator ;p
<kwwii> this seems like a funky effect of too much introspection
<kwwii> where did you right click to get this?
<vish> just sent you the buttons mail..
<kwwii> I will end up buying either a new hard drive for my laptop and losing all the date, at least for now, or buying a new laptop and losing the data as well
<kwwii> hehe, cool
<kwwii> thanks
<kwwii> good thing I sent it out
<vish> kwwii: see , its good to share ;p
<kwwii> hehe, if things worked by my rules all of this would be open
<kwwii> my laptop is totally dead
<kwwii> and I really don't have the money to buy a new one
<kwwii> suckage
<knome> kwwii, you have to ask mark for a new one.
<vish> yeah.. the desktop team got new minis for testing , you should get a new laptop ;)
<kwwii> knome: lol, my contract states that I have to provide the computers I need
<knome> aww
<vish> :s
<knome> are you not paid? :P
<vish> knome: could you open the branding files? and check what i was mentioning? the "Kubuntu..." thingie  ?
<knome> uhmm
<kwwii> vish: I did and cannot see it
<kwwii> tell me which exact file you see it with
<kwwii> and which exact program and step you doing to reproduce it
<knome> vish, what exactly should i check?
<kwwii> LOL, the 13th time I try my laptop boots
<kwwii> !!!
<knome> kwwii, fail
<knome> ;)
<vish> kwwii: almost all the files , all i did was to open the file in evince " UBUNTU_BRANDMARK_AW/ubuntu_brandmark/Files_for_print/ "
<kwwii> should I make a backup?
<vish> knome: ^
<vish> kwwii: definitely backup!
<knome> like, what's wrong with that?
<kwwii> man, i am soooooooo happy that it booted
<kwwii> amazed, really
<vish> knome: do you see the files named as Kubuntu.. like this >  http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1325768/Screenshot-1.png  in the title bar?
<knome> let me see
<knome> i can't even load the files apparently
<knome> is there something wrong in my installation? :P
<vish> xubuntu fail! ;p
<knome> no, evince fail
<knome> just says loading
<kwwii> knome: inkscape should be able to load it
<knome> oh, inkscape... :P
<kwwii> but maybe the problem is only with evince
<kwwii> I will test it once the backup is done :p
<kwwii> 48min
<vish> well , i noticed the problem in evince.. inkscape shows on metadata though
<vish> gah! even the files in /UBUNTU_BRANDMARK_AW/ubuntu_brandmark/Files_for_web  are the same!  looks like all the .eps files are retaining the metadata somewhere which is read in evince
<kwwii> hr
<kwwii> hrm
<kwwii> that sucks
<kwwii> I wonder which metadata it is
<kwwii> I cannot see anything in the SVG
<kwwii> well, from inkscape that is
<vish> yeah , inkscape is clean for me too
<kwwii> I guess I should look into the SVG itself
<kwwii> too late here for that tonight thought
<kwwii> tought
<kwwii> argh
<kwwii> though
<kwwii> vish, you should be in be
<kwwii> d
<vish>  ;)
<knome> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/libspectre/+bug/479674
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 479674 in libspectre "evince 2.28.1 fails to render binary eps files on amd64" [Low,Confirmed]
<knome> i think i have that...
<kwwii> knome: sounds reasonable
<kwwii> vish: let's discuss this k* issue more tomorrow
<vish> the COF .eps files are named correctly
<vish> kwwii: sure.. nite!
<knome> reasonable, i don't think, explains why this happens, yes
<kwwii> vish: even if you are staying up I have a family and have to sleep
<kwwii> vish: do you have a family?
<knome> even if i have family i'll stay up
<knome> oh wait..
<kwwii> lol
<vish> kwwii: lol , everyone has a family..
<kwwii> but you aren't really doing anything than talking
<vish> not of my own yet ;p
<knome> kwwii means family as in horny wife
 * knome hides
<kwwii> vish: sure, sorry for not explaining that right
<kwwii> knome: I want your horny wife
<kwwii> how is that?
<knome> nah
<kwwii> lol
<vish> explaining what. horny wife?
<knome> ;)
<knome> kwwii, you should have your own.
<kwwii> knome: no worries, I do
<knome> kwwii, good. i'm reliefed. if you didn't, you would have gone wayyyyy down the wrong road.
<kwwii> vish: I really want to figure out these problems with the names/metadata
<kwwii> vish: quite important that the ubuntu visuals don't say kubuntu
<kwwii> :p
<vish> ;)
<knome> a suggestion: make them say "xubuntu rocks!"
<vish> s/ro/su
<knome> vish, wrong syntax.
<knome> vish, missing slash.
<vish> ;)
<kwwii> my laptop, while still working is copying 75.4gb of info to a backup disk. Let's hope it goes well
<knome> anyone happened to fix broken sparkplugs?
<kwwii> now I have an excuse to a) take half the day off to buy an SSD and b) speed up my computer :-)
<knome> mine have some kind of contact failure
<kwwii> in addition I got the chance to save my files
<kwwii> what a deal
 * vish only heard of spark plugs in cars 
<knome> http://img.muare.vn/close_your_eyes/koss-sparkplug.jpg
<kwwii> knome: I honestly beat the shit out of this laptop and poof it works again
<knome> pretty nice comparing to their price.
<knome> kwwii, :D
<knome> kwwii, did you get a backup of the uds-jaunty group photo?
<kwwii> probably a connector or something with the hard disk itself
<kwwii> knome: I have that on a backup of my old mac stuff for which I no longer have the software to export
<kwwii> knome: I know, _I can export it
<kwwii> somehow
<knome> :)
<knome> maybe someday
<kwwii> ask me in the year 3000
<kwwii> I will honestly think about it soon
<kwwii> the problem is that the files were done on a mac which is out of served
<knome> :)
<kwwii> and although I have them, I lost the directory info
<knome> sounds like you need to do backups way more often...
<kwwii> so I need to search through thousands of files to find them without any idea of where they are
<kwwii> lol
<kwwii> I have terabytes of backups
<kwwii> just in pictures
<kwwii> the problem is that with all I do by employer thinks it is my responsibility to make backups
<knome> heh
<kwwii> but really, it is not my problem
<kwwii> anyway<
<knome> lately, my employer also thought i should make backups
<knome> oh wait, that's me
<kwwii> I do try to make backups
<knome> (yeah, i lost some important files 2 days ago. fortunately i can get the backups from my client...)
<kwwii> but if something gets lost and they expect me to pay for the hardware and software when something gets lost it is not my problem
<knome> yup
<kwwii> anyway
<kwwii> time for sleep
<kwwii> night
<knome> night!
#ubuntu-artwork 2010-04-29
 * darkmatter throws a lensflare at vish
<darkmatter> http://www.flickr.com/photos/jakubsteiner/4562187638/sizes/o/
<vish> darkmatter: hehe , i like the star trek  video :D
<vish> or clip rather..
<darkmatter> aye :D
<darkmatter> vish: "Yes, itâs true that a team at Google couldnât decide between two blues,  so theyâre testing  41 shades between each blue to see which one performs better." lawl
<vish> darkmatter: whaaaT. where is that from?
<darkmatter> old blog post from googles former design head
<darkmatter> sec
<vish> oh well , damn! i have 400 mails in inbox i havent read yet.. :s
<darkmatter> vish: http://stopdesign.com/archive/2009/03/20/goodbye-google.html that's what happens when you let engineers make design decisions
 * vish ponders on using delete all :D
<darkmatter> it's also why he left google
<vish> darkmatter: i think i read that a while ago.. need to stop readin too many things /
<vish> gah!
<vish> phew , back to normal ;)
<directhex> am i imagining it, or do the visual identity guidelines not mention aubergine once?  it's not on the colour palette page
<directhex> making it not a "brand colour", making logo-on-aubergine a violation of incorrect use #7
<vish> directhex: aubergine for canonical
<directhex> ah
<islington> kwii: the link you posted is503'ed
<islington> er kwwii that is
<islington> we its back now
<kwwii> islington: lol, seems like a problem with the server
<kwwii> I didn't change anything
<islington> probably getting hammered now
<kwwii>  I imagine so
<islington> it looks great downloading for later read
<kwwii> cool,, have fun
<vish> kwwii: did you sort out the Kubuntu issue ;)
<kwwii> vish: I cannot reproduce it
<kwwii> vish: tell me which exact files it happens to
<kwwii> erm
<kwwii> tell me which files experience this problem
<kwwii> and how to reproduce it
<kwwii> I realize it is a problem for you
<kwwii> and I want to fix it but I don't understand what the problem is yet
<vish> kwwii: hehe , not a problem for me neither.. :)  but it is weird when the ubuntu branding files are named Kubuntu and probably they wont be redone again...
<vish> weird though , we need to get someone to open the file
<knome> hmm
<knome> i can try that now
<knome> as i'm on a i386 machine
<vish> kwwii: all i did was open the files in evince... and for me it happens/UBUNTU_BRANDMARK_AW/ubuntu_brandmark/Files_for_web     UBUNTU_BRANDMARK_AW/ubuntu_brandmark/Files_for_print/
<vish> knome: ^
<Viper550> up;d my friend's xubuntu to lucid last night
<knome> yeah, let me see
<knome> what...
<knome> seems like my evince still refuses to load those files
<vish> oh great!
<vish> Viper550: you are on Lucid or karmic?
<Viper550> On my laptop here in Saskatchewan ... Windows Vista SP1 d:
<vish> ;p
<knome> Viper550, isn't that a cold place?
<Viper550> It's windy, but the weather is fair today
<knome> what's the temp?
<kwwii> vish: which exact files?
<kwwii> vish: I have opened a lot of them and it does not happen for me
<kwwii> you open them with ->document viewer right?
<kwwii> or are you using a custom command?
<vish> yup : ex: UBUNTU_BRANDMARK_AW/ubuntu_brandmark/Files_for_print/Black-White/ubuntu_black_b-w.eps
<vish> no custom commands
<Viper550> anyway, with some tweaks, look what I did http://i.imgur.com/mjebu.png
<kwwii> vish: let me show you the screenshot I see
<vish> Viper550: i tired with something similar... the app icon placement :)
<kwwii> I do not get the kubuntu effect :p
<Viper550> is there an emerald theme of the Lucid metacity lying about anywhere?
<vish> heh , maybe you are immune ;p
<kwwii> then again, it will not load atm
<kwwii> ;-(
<kwwii> let me boot into lucid
<Viper550> yes, he's got compiz. on xubuntu. but wait til you hear his specs
<kwwii> maybe it is different
<Viper550> AMD Sempron 1.7GHZ, 256mb ram, Nvidia Geforce 2 MX400, 40GB HDD
<Viper550> and yet I saw in person, it ran compiz smoothly
<kwwii> Viper550: if I didn't know you I would think you are a bot
<vish> lol ;p
<Viper550> lol
<kwwii> vish: I will download the files on my lucid machine and see what happens
<Viper550> and yeah I mirrored the screenshot onto imgur from his AMD K-6 powered server
<kwwii> vish: opening now...it takes much longer than on my karmic machine
<kwwii> as in minutes vs seconds
<kwwii> lol
<kwwii> indeed it does say kubuntu
<vish> phew!
<kwwii> rotfl
<knome> haha
<kwwii> you are not crazy
<vish> yay , I'm not crazy!
<knome> congrats kwwii
 * knome applauds for vish 
<knome> great work team
<kwwii> vish: indde
<knome> now you can *** off
<knome> ;)
<kwwii> indeed, great work
<knome> no, not really
<kwwii> vish: sorry for the confusion, my lucid laptop died yesterday
<kwwii> so I could not test it on lucid
<kwwii> thanks so much for keeping the issue open
 * knome closes the box with the issue inside it forever
<knome> BUAHAHA
<Viper550> is there an emerald version of the ubuntu lucid window border anywhere?
<vish> kwwii: np.. glad to not be craszy :D
<vish> crazy*
<Viper550> nm, http://compiz-themes.org/content/show.php/Glass-Ambiance+Left+%26+Right?content=122854
<kwwii> hehe, the ideas we have with regards to transparency are much more advanced
<kwwii> anyway, time for sleep
<kwwii> night all
<knome> night kwwii
<kwwii> vish: I will see that things get fixed
<kwwii> thanks for sticking to it
<kwwii> and goodnight
<vish> kwwii: nite..
 * vish wonders when it became my agenda 0.o 
<vish> ;p
<Viper550> and the moral: ambiance looks just as good on xfce than it does on gnome
#ubuntu-artwork 2010-04-30
<honki> http://www.flickr.com/photos/honki/4564075703/
<honki> rock_n_ubuntu
<knome> lol
<thorwil> iainfarrell: morning! i showed a similar screenshot to kwwii, but did not talk about the color issue with him, otherwise
<thorwil> vish: if you open one of the for-web SVGs of the ubuntu logo, does it look much more red than what you see in the guidelines pdf, too?
<vish> thorwil: what screenshot?
<thorwil> vish: http://www.foopics.com/showfull/7e44f4cb5d9bf6be8d062b2eef5c7931
<thorwil> i'd like to have confirmation that the same happens on other systems, as i'm still on karmic, but with a custom inkscape build
 * vish checking
<vish> thorwil: where is the cof_orange_hex_svg.pdf?  did you generate that?
<vish> using inkscape or in the files?
<thorwil> vish: yes, pdf export of cof_orange_hex_svg
<thorwil> vish: but if it's the same on your system, it doesn't matter if you llok at it in inkscape or export to png or pdf, that color stays the same
<vish> thorwil: the colors are different
<thorwil> vish: does it match the colors in my screenshot?
<vish>  just a sec
<knome> iainfarrell, sent you a reply
<iainfarrell> hey knome
<iainfarrell> cool!
<iainfarrell> We're in Brussels for the next two weeks preparing for UDS
<knome> okay. :) i never got that invite by the way ;]
<vish> thorwil: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1325768/Screenshot-2.png
<vish> the exported pdf and the svg are the same , but the eps file is a bit different
<vish> and the guidelines are the same color as your screenshot
<thorwil> vish: thanks
<thorwil> iainfarrell: so it's not an oddity on my system. the EPS on vish's screenshots has #e72100 instead of #dd3a21
<vish> and the branding ones are totally different
<thorwil> iainfarrell: you could try if using inkscape on a mac makes a difference, but you might have to investigate how the assets and guidelines have been created, regarding platform, color profiles and software
<thorwil> iainfarrell: though it does look like the hex color values are quite simply just wrong
<thorwil> doubly so for the EPS
<vish> why is the guidelines having the totally wrong colors ? http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1325768/Screenshot-3.png
<iainfarrell> vish and thorwil: We'll need to investigate why this is happening because these colours are identical on other platforms
<vish> iainfarrell: well , I'm on Lucid *Ubuntu* , not sure which platforms they were tested ;)
<thorwil> vish: on OS X and Win 7, of course ;)
<iainfarrell> thorwil: I've not looked on Windows :)
<iainfarrell> vish and thorwil: I need to understand more about how colour spaces work on Linux
<iainfarrell> because I think that's what's causing this issue
<thorwil> iainfarrell: perhaps it's some color management on the mac with adobe tools, vs no color management at all on ubuntu?
 * vish ... leaves this to thorwil , already bugged kwwii enough for another issue ;p  
<thorwil> vish: heh, this is all i have to say about, enough bugging :)
<iainfarrell> thorwil and vish - have you come across similar issues elsewhere?
<thorwil> iainfarrell: no
<thorwil> kwwii: would you mind if i edit brand_of_thumbs.png to close the shadows/frames on the top of the pages? they all look cut off, currently
<vish> iainfarrell: well , the one i mentioned to kwwii was the ubuntu branding files being named as *K*ubuntu > http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1325768/Screenshot-Properties.png  and kwwii is already on it
<kwwii> thorwil: sure, go ahead
<vish> iainfarrell: btw , you guys should scrub the metadata from the files ;)  we dont want other to know we depend on mac/adobe ;)
<iainfarrell> vish - yeah kwwii and I are talking about this already
<iainfarrell> regarding the colours issue
<iainfarrell> I'm going to start doing some digging on this and find out why it's happening
<iainfarrell> I think I know why and I'm not sure there's much we can do about it
<iainfarrell> in the short term at least
<iainfarrell> the pdf guide is the correct orange
<iainfarrell> why the other files are opening like that I think is to do with how the application treats different files rather than how  the colour is set in the file
<thorwil> iainfarrell: well, simply sampling the orange from the pdf would yield better results on ubuntu
<kwwii> thorwil: the files with the hex colors are correct thought
<kwwii> thorwil: ie, when I open them they show the correct colours
<kwwii> thorwil: note that the pantone and cmyk will not appear to be the same anyway as they are slightly different values
<iainfarrell> the hex values might be right but the way they are rendering on your screen isn't
<kwwii> ie one cannot simply reduce cmyk into hex
<vish>  well , not really an issue for me.. :)  but its the sort of stuff the design team gets poked about like > http://feedproxy.google.com/~r/d0od/~3/V5T-2y66sVE/ubuntu-1004-press-releases-enter-wild.html
<iainfarrell> look at the orange we're using on Ubuntu.com and then look at the way that EPS has opened
<iainfarrell> it's clearly wrong
<kwwii> which EPS?
<kwwii> none of the colour managed ones will open correctly on linux
<kwwii> that I get
<iainfarrell> hey kwwii the one in T's screenshot
<thorwil> kwwii: i had 3 years vocational education that included printing technology. i think i understand pantone and cmyk and the problems with converting to rgb values quite well ;)
<iainfarrell> thorwil: so do you know what's happening here then? :)
<thorwil> iainfarrell: i can only guess that it is color management related
<kwwii> thorwil: I can confirm that the orange in the hex files is the correct value
<kwwii> thorwil: look at the palette value for the orange and then open the file with gimp and pick the color
<thorwil> kwwii: what about the difference between the SVGs and the EPS?
<kwwii> thorwil: so it seems the pdf is the incorrect orange
<iainfarrell> thorwil and kwwii am I right that there is no system wide management in Linux?
<kwwii> iainfarrell: there is but it is very rudimen tary
<kwwii> thorwil: just checked the svgs and the colours are simply wrong
<iainfarrell> kwwii: I see, are there projects out there to make it better?
<thorwil> kwwii: ah, so it should be a reddish orange, not a medium orange!?
<kwwii> thorwil: right dd4814
<kwwii> or so
<vish> iainfarrell: is that the new font used in the branding guidelines pdf?  [or atleast the incomplete one?]
<iainfarrell> vish yes it is
<thorwil> iainfarrell: then i bet the toll that generated the pdf applied some color conversion according to some inappropriate profile
<thorwil> tool, even
<vish> neat ..
<iainfarrell> vish thanks :) it's coming on very well
<thorwil> for a possible revision of the guidelines, the line-spacing should be increased. maybe tracking, too
<kwwii> I take back my comment that the SVGs are wrong
<kwwii> whew :-)
<thorwil> ok, turned http://www.foopics.com/showfull/04037ab3ef5a93392c273ea4d3a559d9 into https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/VisualIdentity?action=AttachFile&do=get&target=brand_of_thumbs.png
<kwwii> cool
<ktogias> hello. I am refreshing the style of the web site of greek loco team and I would like to add some banner usiing the font of the new logo. Is that font available for download? Where can I find it?
<kwwii> ktogias: the new font is not available yet
<ktogias> hm... I would like to make a banner for 10.04 release like the one apearing at ubuntu.com top "It's time for a change ..." . Do you have in mind any other font that will match nicely with th new ubuntu logo?
* kwwii changed the topic of #ubuntu-artwork to:  Channel for the community artwork team | The new font is NOT AVAILABLE but there are Visual Identity Guidelines: http://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/VisualIdentity | Wiki:  http://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork | Mailing list: http://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-art
<kwwii> ktogias: to be honest, I do not
<kwwii> sorry
<kwwii> maybe someone here would like to help?
<kwwii> thorwil, anyone?
<thorwil> ktogias: 2 fonts have been mentioned that seem to be similar, but both commercial
<ktogias> If commercial then useless (for me at least...)
<ktogias> Any clue on when the logo font will be available?
<kwwii> ktogias: no, sorry
<thorwil> ktogias: Gillius might be reasonable next to the new logo-type
<thorwil> ttf-adf-gillius
<ktogias> thanks thorwil . I'll give it a try.
<thorwil> 0.o http://www.goodshowsir.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/camelot3.jpg
<kwwii> now that looks good
<knome> iainfarrell, sent you mail
<directhex> oh, wow, there IS a new gdm screen. bug 532659 was keeping it a secret
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 532659 in gdm "new theme not applied" [Low,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/532659
<kwwii> sounds like there were issues with people updating
<directhex> i was waiting for one of those to start existing before making a grub2 theme. i wonder how long i've been wasting time
<kwwii> directhex: since about beta1 or 2
<toxz> i want to paint for ubuntu a picture
<islington> anyone in here do plasma themeing?
<kwwii> islington: yes, it is very simple
<islington> kwwii: not when the documentation is old and incomplete; do you know what frame.svgz is themeing?
<kwwii> not off hand
<kwwii> I would assume a frame around something though :p
<kwwii> islington: when I do not know what something does, I make it bright red and check
<islington> mmm that is essentially what I did, made it white when my theme is dark, but I dont see any difference :(
<kwwii> you should ask pinheiro in #oxygen
<islington> k thanks
<kwwii> wow, I found something we should update
<kwwii> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IconsPage
<ktogias> thorwil, everybody: Just finished with the installation and translation of 10.04 banner to ubuntu-gr LoCo team site. Isn't it beautiful?: http://www.ubuntu-gr.org/ ... Thanks a lot for your help!
<thorwil> iainfarrell: size guidelines for logo use should include pixel sizes, perhaps.
<kwwii> well, the week is over for me and I have a two week trip on Sunday
<kwwii> hey DanRabbit_
<kwwii> how's things?
#ubuntu-artwork 2010-05-01
<rlameiro> hi everyone
<rlameiro> what do i need to make a plymouth theme?
<rlameiro> and is there some place to learn how to do it
<rlameiro> like tutorials or docs?
<HedgeMage> Anybody here awake and interested in talking with me about edubuntu.org redesign?  I had it about done when the new logo was dropped on us.  I need an artist's take on what I can put together to make it look good.
<thorwil> http://jimmac.musichall.cz/log/?p=974
<darkmatter> vish: new firefox is dropping the windowed ui's for rendering them in browser http://img684.imageshack.us/img684/3696/screenshot2a.png
<thorwil> yeah, down with unnecessary (separate) windows
<vish> darkmatter: lol! i just realized that those were a separate window by default! had been using AOIS for a long long time ;)
<darkmatter> :P
<mac9416> Are there any guidelines for LoCo logos?
<vish> mac9416: AFAIK , nope...  but its better to wait for kwwii .. also he might be busy for the next 2 weeks..
<vish> better to wait for kwwii's reply*
<mac9416> OK, so he might not be around for a while?
<vish> mac9416: he'd be in and out.. but might take time for him to notice & reply ;)
<mac9416> OK, I'll just hang out in the shadows and wait for him then.  :-)
<thorwil> vish: maybe we should start rotation, pointing to one kwwii, iainfarrel or even ivanka in rotation ;)
<vish> thorwil: easiest target is kwwii though ;p  always easy to ping
<vish> thorwil: i never heard of guidelines for locos.. is there one?
<thorwil> vish: no
<thorwil> vish: there should be "don't just put a flag or something into the CoC" as minimum
<vish> thorwil: lol! still pissed about the -hn logo ? ;p
<thorwil> vish: heh, common, it's sad, isn't it!?
<islington> thorwil:  http://www.ubuntu-fl.org/
<islington> I facepalm everytime
<thorwil> appropriate
<vish> i wonder what they are using for the favicon
<vish> the -hn folks
<vish> ha neat , they dont seem to have a site.. which works in a way i guess ;p
#ubuntu-artwork 2010-05-02
<kosiini> What are the fonts installed in Ubuntu by default? or just the font packages
<darkmatter> kwwii: vish: gnome is getting a new font. it's just not done yet, so still has several issues (WIP thingy). http://img440.imageshack.us/img440/8315/screenshotjl.png
<darkmatter> it's looking pretty sharp though
<kwwii> darkmatter: wow, nice
<darkmatter> kwwii: aye. I hope they default to it once it's ready. it's going to be a crispy one. I have hinting off completely in that shot and it only slightly messes up the upper 5th of the font
<darkmatter> kwwii: but the biggest thing in the like department for me is that it is its _own_ font. it's not a cheap segoe ripoff like droid, nor is it any other generic clone of an MS font like the primary sans varieties we normally use. it adds to the gnome identity instead of subtracting from it
<kwwii> I'll have a closer look at some point in time
<kwwii> heading out for belgium in a couple of hours
<knome> kwwii, have some chimay
#ubuntu-artwork 2011-04-25
<thorwil> vish: http://www.calebclark.org/?p=870
<vish> thorwil: hmm.. but save the ML and do what?
<thorwil> vish: it doesn't seem that applicable to the lists we know. though a single round of that invitation model would be worth a try for some new lists
<vish> ah! yea..
<thorwil> of course, using some key-code and changing it from time to time would allow to keep people off the list, unlike simple forced unsubscribing and hoping they won't just come back with a different address
<vish>  funny though, that the article is 12yrs old and still applicable :D
<vish> shows how little the 'attractive forces' for projects has changed in all these years..
<pr0xy> Hi, I'm working on a custom Ubuntu-based distro. I need desktop backgrounds. Can you help?
<coz_> pr0xy,   cool.... ah,,, well  not sure who here is free to do that,, but cant hurt to ask for sure,,, what is the name of t he new distribution?
<pr0xy> ugr. You can find our homepage at ugr.teampr0xy.net
<coz_> pr0xy,   this is cool... you already know that natty has classic gnome as well ..yes?
<coz_> although I personally dont like natty at this moment  at least the Unity part of it,,, so I understand the desire to have a regular gnome desktop
<pr0xy> Yes, but our goal is to provide GNOME 3. Plus, Mark Shuttleworth said that 11.10 and beyond would only ship woth Unity.
<pr0xy> with*
<coz_> pr0xy,   ah   right because of the resource useage by gnome3  so far,, I believe that is the reason  we went from mutter to compiz on Unity
<pr0xy> Is the resource usage too high? We're working with the GNOME 3 team, now.
<coz_> pr0xy,   I have tested it many times,, it is far  too resource intensive on mid range systems  so far,, although I know many people have commented on the same issue with ubuntu going compiz instead of mutter  ,, they wanted gnome3   on natty
<zniavre_> good afternoon
<coz_> zniavre_,  hey guy :)
<zniavre_> gnome3( -shell) and unity do not want my gfx card  ...
<coz_> zniavre_,   right
<coz_> pr0xy,   and zniavre_
<coz_> pr0xy,   and  zniavre_
<coz_> damn
<pr0xy> THe UGR team is working on that with the GNOME 3 team.
<zniavre_> buying new graphic card to poor ppl like me ?
<coz_> pr0xy,   well I think it would be cool  to have a gnome3  ubuntu version
<zniavre_> where can i dl your distrib ???
<pr0xy> No, fixing the compatibility issues, zniavre_
<zniavre_> mmmffff ...
<coz_> pr0xy,  but as zniavre_   has mentioned,, many people cant use gnome 3 unless they have a really modern system...
<zniavre_> :o)
<coz_> pr0xy,    but  I see no reason artwork cant be done for it
 * zniavre_ feel under pressure of devices 
<pr0xy> My desktop has a pentium4 and it's like 6 years old. GNOME 3 works okay on it, actually. Pretty much the same as Natty.
<coz_> pr0xy,   this is not meant as a  put down in any respect,, but   I would prefer compiz over mutter,,, had gnome3  gone with the   "gnome3  clever windows"  concept.. they may have won me over for sure
<coz_> pr0xy,  ok then maybe mutter has improved
<zniavre_> my PC is over 13y/o what to do with new interfaces ?
<pr0xy> Then again, I have a nice gfx card.
<coz_> pr0xy,  ah see  that's the issue
<coz_> pr0xy,   with compiz  you can use a lesser video card
<pr0xy> Wow. What kind of computer, znaivre_
<pr0xy> ?
<zniavre_> duno some pieces found in garbage
<pr0xy> Lol.
<zniavre_> amdxp 1.5ghz  2go ram ddr  fx5500 128mo
<coz_> pr0xy,  I think this is a valid  distribution however,,, and most likely will be accepted as an official project
<coz_> GRubuntu
<pr0xy> We've asked for permissions from Canonical, and they didn't give us any...
<coz_> oh!
<pr0xy> so we're stuck with ubuntu gnome remix, for now.
<pr0xy> We applied for Gubuntu.
<coz_> UGR  is a good name :)
<pr0xy> it's okay for now. We're working with it.
<coz_> :)
<pr0xy> I've already started theming
<coz_> pr0xy,  so the goal is to have this default to  gnome3 ...yes?
<pr0xy> Yes. Would you like to join the Launchpad team?
<coz_> pr0xy,   well I wouldnt mind  ,,, I dont know what I could contribute graphically,,, I do have a flickr account with some of my own work  not much is about desktop backgrounds though
<coz_> www.flickr.com/photos/coz_
<pr0xy> Oh, could you make some?
<coz_> pr0xy, there is one desktop background on the second page of that account  named  "babies"
<pr0xy> Well... That's interesting...
<coz_> pr0xy,  I can play with some images and let you know
<pr0xy> Could you put ugr on it in the ubuntu font?
<coz_> pr0xy,  on the babies image?
<pr0xy> or on the sunset one.
<coz_> pr0xy,    oh!  wow  sure  that would be easily done,, i would have to remove my signature from it,, and  how large would you like the UGR  on that image?
<pr0xy> uh, do you use gimp?
<coz_> i do
<pr0xy> check out mine at https://launchpadlibrarian.net/70359475/ugr-stripes.jpg
<coz_> ah cool
<zniavre_> i hav made only mac-aubergine wallpaper ...
<pr0xy> Both Babies and sunset would be nice to have. put ugr in the lowercase using the ubuntu font, somewhere.
<pr0xy> what's the URL, znaivre_?
<coz_> pr0xy,  ok let me do that now
<coz_> pr0xy,  what resolutions do you want ?
<pr0xy> uhhh... Wallpaper sized.
<pr0xy> Like, the same as mine.
<coz_> pr0xy,   something like 1280x1024
<coz_> ?
<coz_> let me check that res
<zniavre_> http://i.imgur.com/YbW6C.png    i too shy to share it    :o)
<coz_> pr0xy,  ok yours is 1920 x 1200
<pr0xy> That would be fine, coz_
<coz_> ok
<coz_> pr0xy,  I will have to redo some of the babies  image to fit that scale
<pr0xy> okay, as long as you keep the elephants part.
<coz_> pr0xy,  understood
<coz_> :)
<pr0xy> okay.
<zniavre_> :o)
<pr0xy> ugr might look nice in white in the bottom corner, on an angle, so it fits in the angled piece of ground at the bottom right..
<coz_> pr0xy,  on babies  you mean?
<zniavre_> wich theme engine gnome3 will use ?
<pr0xy> Yes. If you join the launchpad project, you can share by making a bug response on the bug 'wallpaper'
<pr0xy> GNOME 3 uses mutter, right?
<pr0xy> also, how is Canonical going to transfer Unity over to Wayland?
<coz_> pr0xy,  yes gnome3 uses mutter
<coz_> pr0xy,  well I know that sam ,, our main developer on compiz  , has been playing with that for some time
<pr0xy> okay, so if you join the launchpad project I'm an admin, so I'll get you in right away. Do you work with Canonical?
<coz_> pr0xy,   not sure what the complications are at t his point and certainly not usre what is happening  at canonical with wayland
<coz_> pr0xy,  i do not ,, several people on this team do work for them however
<pr0xy> okay.
<coz_> pr0xy,  i just dont remember who they are,, maybe  kwwii_   but not sure
<pr0xy> okay. Well, if you can share that... that would be great.
<coz_> pr0xy,   I am editing the 2 images now
<pr0xy> okay.
<pr0xy> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntugnome
<coz_> pr0xy,  ok
<pr0xy> the bug you should post them to is titled WALLPAPER
<coz_> pr0xy,  ok cool
<coz_> pr0xy,  you just want a link to the images ,, yes?
<coz_> I will put them in my dropbox account for access
<pr0xy> for now. You attach them in a reply to the bug.
<pr0xy> add a comment and attach them to it.
<coz_> pr0xy,   ok  I will try to do it correctly :)
<pr0xy> okay. also, if you could help with a logo, that would be stellar.
<coz_> pr0xy,   will give it some thought :)
<pr0xy> cool.
<pr0xy> Can we do spinoffs on the Circle of friends without permissions to use a bunch of copyright crap?
<coz_> pr0xy,  mm  I believe so but  I would research that first,, although I think they are either gpl or creative commons   ,, still i would check to be sure
<pr0xy> okay
<coz_> pr0xy,   I have seen many spinoffs of it but not attached to a distribution
<pr0xy> oh. what about kubuntu?
<coz_> pr0xy,   well yeah officially a canonical distro
<pr0xy> oh... that's true
<coz_> pr0xy,    I believe , as I said it is either creative commons or gpl ,, either of which would allow for alterations and changes ,,,
<pr0xy> okay
<coz_> check to be sure,,, dont want hassles later down the line :)
<pr0xy> yeah. If you can think of anything, let us know.
<pr0xy> Did you post those pictures?
<pr0xy> Did you post those pictures?
<coz_> pr0xy,  I havent finished them yet :)
<coz_> the sunset image is going to be a bit more difficult in placing the "ugr" and its color
<pr0xy> oh, sorry.
<pr0xy> yeah...
<pr0xy> did you finish babies?
<coz_> pr0xy,  no that one will be easier :)
<pr0xy> can you do it first, and post it?
<coz_> ok hold on
<pr0xy> thank
<pr0xy> thanks*
<coz_> I have to find my folder with the different resolutions of that image  so it may take a few minutes to find it
<pr0xy> okay
<pr0xy> Sunset might be better without UGR on it, actually.
<pr0xy> since there's not really anywhere to put it.
<pr0xy> zniavre_ if you can do like that aubergine paper, but say ugr on it, that would be sweet, especially if it looked like handwriting.
<coz_> pr0xy,  something like this  ?    http://dl.dropbox.com/u/132551/UGR/babies2.png
<coz_> pr0xy,  although I think the text should probably be  the yellow in the image
<pr0xy> absolutely. but, use the ubuntu font.
<coz_> pr0xy,  that is the ubuntu font  :(
<coz_> I have set all grphics apps to default to ubuntu font  I will check it though hold on
<pr0xy> ubuntu is what's on mine. did you use italic or something?
<coz_> pr0xy,  no but let me check
<coz_> pr0xy,  do you want regular or bold?
<pr0xy> bold, mebbe?
<coz_> ok let me try hold on
<pr0xy> that might work better.
<pr0xy> if it doesn't work, you might have an old version of the font.
<coz_> pr0xy,  no i have the new one but hold on
<pr0xy> 0.71.2
<pr0xy> ?
<coz_> pr0xy,  is this better?  http://dl.dropbox.com/u/132551/UGR/babies2.png   let me c heck version
<pr0xy> mebbe make it a little bit bigger.
<coz_> font version  0.71.2-3
<pr0xy> okay. make it bigger?
<coz_> ok let me do that
<coz_> how much bigger?
<pr0xy> a bit? also, can instead of the sunset, mebbe do the bird india ink one?
<coz_> ah let me check on that hold on ,, let me finishe this one first
<coz_> pr0xy,   how about this attemtp?  http://dl.dropbox.com/u/132551/UGR/babies2.png
<coz_> wait that didnt work
<pr0xy> pretty good. move it into the corner a little more.
<coz_> pr0xy,     http://dl.dropbox.com/u/132551/UGR/babies.png
<pr0xy> perfect.
<pr0xy> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ugr-meta/+bug/770095
<ubot2> Launchpad bug 770095 in ugr-meta "WALLPAPER" [Medium,In progress]
<coz_> pr0xy,  now let me see if I can get the bird  to work in that resolution
<pr0xy> add comment and attach the image.
<coz_> pr0xy,  ok I think I added that correctly
<pr0xy> cann you upload the comment to the bug report?
<coz_> pr0xy,  just did I believe
<pr0xy> ok
<pr0xy> you actually attach the file itself, not give a url.
<coz_> ah ok hold on
<pr0xy> it saves the file on the launchpad server for speed and error prevention (if you move the file on your dropbox or something.
<coz_> ok I think i did it correctly
<pr0xy> yep. now delete the original comment if you can.
<coz_> let me try
<coz_> pr0xy,  i dont think I can ,, you might have to since I dont have rights for that
<pr0xy> oh. nevermind then.
<coz_> pr0xy,   the bird image may be a bit more difficult to get to that resolution ... I may have to make additions to it to fit
<pr0xy> okay.
<pr0xy> that might be nice, and could you grey it a bit?
<coz_> I will try hold on
<pr0xy> sorry. I quit firefox by accident.
<pr0xy> any progress, coz_?
<coz_> pr0xy,  the bird image is giving me a bit of a problem... its dimensions are a bit off for that resolution but I am playing with a few idea
<pr0xy> okey.
<pr0xy> Just post them on the bug thing.
<pr0xy> can you post them on th bug thing, coz_
<coz_> pr0xy,  sure  just give me time because this bird image is not cooperating
<pr0xy> okay, I need to leave, though, so i won't be back for a while...
<coz_> ok
<thorwil> coz_: what are your working on?
<coz_> thorwil,  pr0xy wanted a few images for  his ubuntu gnome remix
<thorwil> gnome 3 remix?
<coz_> yes
<thorwil> nice to see those elephants put to use
<coz_> thorwil,  yeah I suppose ,, at least someone will get use of them :)
<coz_> otherwise they just sit around,, because I dont use it :)
<coz_> I do use the gimp splash with those babies though
<coz_> http://dl.dropbox.com/u/132551/Gimp/3/gimp-splash.png
<thorwil> hmm, that type doesn't talk with the image much
<pr0xy> coz_, can you use the ubuntu bold font on the birds ones again?
<coz_> pr0xy,   sure  give some time  I have a few errands to do ... so I will get to this a bit later ...yes?
<pr0xy> okay, I've included bird1 as bird-symmetry
<coz_> ok cool
<pr0xy> I'm liking bird3, but can you blur the area to the sides?
<coz_> pr0xy,  sure  let me know now what changes you want  ,, I will get to them after I return,, although I am not leaving at this moment so I can take notes and make changes
<coz_> renames bird1 to bird-symmetry
<pr0xy> actually, bird2 will be good, if you use the ubuntu bold font.
<coz_> ok  will do  all t h e changes then :)
<pr0xy> blur the sides of bird3, and use ubuntu bold on both.
<coz_> ok cool
<pr0xy> I'll include the new bird2 as birdsong and the new bird3 as variation on birdsong
<coz_> ok renaming now
<pr0xy> i've got bird-symmetry in the tar.gz
<coz_> pr0xy,  you want birdsond-variation.png ..yes?
<coz_> birdsong rather
<pr0xy> yes, can you blur the side parts and use ubuntu bold?
<coz_> sure not problem...will get to that  today :)
<coz_> pr0xy,  do you still want a  sunset  one as well?
<pr0xy> maybe, if you can tone the colors down a tad.
<coz_> ok will try it out
<pr0xy> can you post up any of those bird ones in a few minutes?
<coz_> pr0xy,  maybe this on   is this more to your liking?  yes?
<coz_> http://dl.dropbox.com/u/132551/UGR/birdsong.png
<pr0xy> i've got less than 10 min battery life left.
<pr0xy> move ugr a bit left
<coz_> ooo  mm ok  that will take time  I have to redo the background then   or stamp tool it  ...mm that may be an issue ,, but I will get to it
<pr0xy> like 1 pixels left
<pr0xy> like 10 pixels left
<coz_> ok let me try
<pr0xy> it's just a textbox, right?
<coz_> pr0xy,  well I  merged the layers down  so hold on
<pr0xy> ok
<pr0xy> if you get them done, i can post ugr-wallpaper-0.4
<coz_> mm hold on working on them
<pr0xy> okay. i'l be back in a bit. batteries are dead.
<pr0xy> got mah chargur.
<pr0xy> anything, coz_
<pr0xy> ?
<coz_> pr0xy,  hold on going to link  you to them to look at them  before I finalize it
<pr0xy> okay
<coz_> http://dl.dropbox.com/u/132551/UGR/birdsong-variation.png
<coz_> http://dl.dropbox.com/u/132551/UGR/birdsong.png
<coz_> this bird one was not really designed for wallpaper :)
<vish> pr0xy: " <pr0xy> We've asked for permissions from Canonical, and they didn't give us any..." what do you mean by that?
<pr0xy> variation should be normal birdsong, birdsong should be variation, and can you flip the bird so it faces the left, instead of right on the normal one, that should be variation??
<pr0xy> vish: canonical didn't let us use the name 'Gubuntu', and they won't make us an official distro spin
<pr0xy> coz_: switch the names, first?
<coz_> ok
<vish> pr0xy: why a separate distro? you can do that for the default itself..  :s
<vish> they want to make vanilla gnome available..
<pr0xy> we're using GNOME 3.
<vish> yea, that too..
 * vish grabs link and continues to read backlog
<pr0xy> so... it's a spin. go to ugr.teampr0xy.net
<pr0xy> coz_ on the new variation, can the bird part in the middle be in the opposite direction? like mirror it?
<vish> pr0xy: https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-desktop/2011-April/002877.html
<vish> they want to do it for default itself, but dont have any community members working on it..
<pr0xy> Yeah, but that's for oneiric. we're doing it NOW, not in 6 months...
<vish> ha!!
<pr0xy> and we're actually working with the gnome 3 team.
<pr0xy> for realz.
<vish> pr0xy: so for Oneiric you are working with them?
<pr0xy> no. for a natty custom release.
<vish> Upstream GNOME team or the Ubuntu gnome 3 team?
<pr0xy> go to ugr.teampr0xy.net
<pr0xy> i think we are the ubuntu gnome 3 team...
<coz_> pr0http://dl.dropbox.com/u/132551/UGR/birdsong-variation.png
<pr0xy> we have www.launchpad.net/ubuntugnome/
<pr0xy> so I think it's us...
<coz_> pr0xy,     http://dl.dropbox.com/u/132551/UGR/birdsong-variation.png
<pr0xy> perfect, coz_
<coz_> ok will post both of those now
<vish> pr0xy: there is another team Â» https://launchpad.net/~gnome3-team ?
<vish> why cant we all work together :)
<pr0xy> that's the official gnome 3 team, methinks.
<vish> pr0xy: two teams doing the exact same thing is not really the best thing for users..
<coz_> pr0xy,  could you give me that wallpaper link again
<coz_> nevermind
<vish> pr0xy: why not work with them? you could become official too..
<vish> ;)
<pr0xy> we... are...
<pr0xy> as I stated previously...
<pr0xy> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ugr-meta/+bug/770095
<ubot2> Launchpad bug 770095 in ugr-meta "WALLPAPER" [Medium,In progress]
<pr0xy> that's it...
<pr0xy> i'll put them in the package.
<coz_> pr0xy,  ok thos 2 have been posted
<pr0xy> okay
<coz_> pr0xy,  I really have go here for about an hour,, and then I will try to work on that sunset image,, I may remove the black borders ,, and tone down the intensity of the colours...  so be back later  :)
<pr0xy> okay.
<pr0xy> or upload them
<pr0xy> hey. anyone able to help with wallpapers?
<darkmatter> vish: http://i.imgur.com/JJtzI.png :O!
<vish> darkmatter: the indigenous Navi must be eliminated!!!
<vish> ;p
<darkmatter> harharhar
<vish> looks like you started theming it already?
<darkmatter> vish: just need new fonts and theme tweaks :P
<vish> the top panel looks non-default..
<vish> crappy branding of the wallpaper :/
<darkmatter> atolm theme. user-there extension ftw :P
<vish> really looks like a weed
<vish> ah! shell themes!!
<darkmatter> vish: just starting the customization. next step, getting adium styles to play nice with empathy 3.0
<darkmatter> theme*
<vish> one of the problems i have to moving to gtk3/gnome3 is to redo my dark themes again :S
<darkmatter> then drop in my wallies
<vish> i just almost got the gtk2 one to look a little close to how i like..
<darkmatter> vish: thers actually a few gtk3 themes now! (on deviantart, no less
<vish> s/almost//
<darkmatter> that didn't take long. lol
<vish> but ME WANTS DARK THEME :D
<darkmatter> hehe
<darkmatter> vish: forced shell/3 on the missus. she _LOVES_ it. anyone who says "normal people are afraid and resistant to/don't like change" can go shove that in a sock and beat themselves with it ;D
<darkmatter> she figured it out faster than I dil. lol
<darkmatter> did*
<vish> yea, it will work for new users who have not used gnome
<vish> but still not yet there..
<vish> darkmatter: shell imo has nothing to figure out :p , its bare bones ;)
<vish> pretty easy to get bored there after a few mins..
<darkmatter> vish: yup. which is why I needed to transition now. I has a live icons whiteboard to work on. plus do a few extendings of my own :D
<darkmatter> vish: the fedora integration is nice. yay for closest to upstream \o/
<vish> pff..
<vish> hasnt fedora always been closest to upstream?
<darkmatter> vish: yup :P
<darkmatter> less surprises, more workiez :P
<vish> well, when i switched to Ubuntu, it was mainly where I can get more support, and Ubuntu had a larger user base and #ubuntu was more populated than #fedora
<vish> from windows..
<vish> XP!!! ;p
<darkmatter> haha
<darkmatter> vish: as long as it works :P
<vish> i did try fedora in a virtual box back then and dint see any benefit then ;)
<darkmatter> vish: though it does take some getting used to after not having used it for so long.
<darkmatter> I forgot how 'fort knox' it is
<darkmatter> likes to beat you over the head with SELinux. lol
<vish> lol!
#ubuntu-artwork 2011-04-26
<pr0xy> nice timing, coz_ I got here less than a minute ago.
<coz_> pr0xy,   cool  I am on this system for just a few moments then have to log back onto  ubuntu 10.10... someone had a questions about 11.04
<pr0xy> One thing with the wallpapers is that I have now created a logo for ugr.
<coz_> pr0xy,  ok
<coz_> may I see it?
<coz_> pr0xy, ^^
<pr0xy> I'll send it to you in a sec.
<pr0xy> I need to upload it somewhere...
<coz_> pr0xy,   svg or png?
<pr0xy> png
<coz_> pr0xy,   speedyshare.com   put it in a folder  compress it upload it there
<coz_> pr0xy,   you should get your free 2gigs with  dropbox8)
<coz_> dropbox     8)
<pr0xy> I have a dropbox. not linked with my laptop, because I've got more stuff than can fit on my laptop's tiny SSD
<coz_> pr0xy,  ok i am going to log out of natty and onto maverick be right back
<coz_> pr0xy,  ok back
<pr0xy> okay. there's a light version and a dark version.
<coz_> ok
<pr0xy> Which do you want?
<coz_> i dont have a link to see them
<coz_> pr0xy,    did you upload them?
<pr0xy> http://www.speedyshare.com/files/28147644/ugr-light.png
<coz_> ok
<pr0xy> http://www.speedyshare.com/files/28147643/ugr-dark.png
<coz_> looks like the light one will work with these images
<coz_> pr0xy,  let me test  hold on
<pr0xy> okay.
<coz_> I like the log by the way
<coz_> logo
<pr0xy> that will replace where it says ugr on the thing. I can get a monochrome one for you.
<coz_> no need  I can do that here
<pr0xy> okay.
<coz_> pr0xy,  ok take a look at these,, see if there is anything you want adjusted   http://dl.dropbox.com/u/132551/UGR/UGR-images.tar.gz
<pr0xy> ugr needs to be a little bit smaller on all of them. and babies should be hidden in the brown part of the ground.
<coz_> pr0xy,   ok let me redo hold  on
<pr0xy> got any, coz_?
<coz_> uploading hold on
<coz_> pr0xy,     http://dl.dropbox.com/u/132551/UGR/UGR-Images.tar.gz
<pr0xy> too small on symmetry. in babies, there's a brown area on the ground, put ugr there.
<pr0xy> variation and birdsong are good.
<coz_> pr0xy,  on babies  over to the right more  you mean
<pr0xy> and down, a bit
<coz_> ok holdon
<pr0xy> can you use the dark ugr there?
<coz_> pr0xy,  ok let me put the dark on in hold on
<pr0xy> can you add color to the symmetry one?
<coz_> pr0xy,  what color ,, you mean to the whole image?
<pr0xy> yes
<coz_> pr0xy,  let me upload these ,, then I have to take a "nature" break   and then I will try :)
<pr0xy> okay.
<pr0xy> That would be awesome
<coz_> pr0xy,  any partiular color / colors?
<pr0xy> Blue. Like in the stripes one.
<pr0xy> Can you upload the fixed babies and symmetry?
<pr0xy> I'll upload all 7 we have so far.
<coz_> pr0xy,    http://dl.dropbox.com/u/132551/UGR/UGR-Images.tar.gz
<coz_> let me try the blue color on that,.,, not sure it will work well but let me try
<pr0xy> can you lower ugr in babies?
<coz_> pr0xy,  sure  how far?
<pr0xy> a little bit. so it's the same distance from the bottom as it is from the right.
<coz_> ok hold on
<pr0xy> and did you do the sunset one?
<coz_> not yet
<pr0xy> we're so close.
<coz_> pr0xy,  see what you think of this    http://dl.dropbox.com/u/132551/UGR/bird-symmetry-color.png
<coz_> first sunset  reduced intensity of colors  pr0xy     http://dl.dropbox.com/u/132551/UGR/sunset1.png
<pr0xy> sunset is cool
<pr0xy> symmetry should use darl
<pr0xy> dark*
<coz_> ok hold on
<pr0xy> did you finish the babies one?
<coz_> yes hold on
<coz_> pr0xy,  ok uploading the package of images hold on
<pr0xy> allright
<coz_> pr0xy,     http://dl.dropbox.com/u/132551/UGR/UGR-Images.tar.gz
<pr0xy> I meant in the color one.
<coz_> oh
<coz_> pr0xy,  so white in the grey one black in the colored one...yes?
<pr0xy> yeah. and did you change any of the others?
<coz_> pr0xy,  yeah i changeg what you asked for
<pr0xy> okay
<pr0xy> can you fix the symmetry ones?
<coz_> doing that now
<pr0xy> okay
<coz_> ok uploading new package,, hold on  about 2 minutes here ,, it seems to be slow today
<pr0xy> sorry. prolly i'm causing it to be slow from overuse.
<coz_> pr0xy,  :)  I doubt that :)
<coz_> dropbox is slow anyway.. unless you buy the premium account which I did not
<pr0xy> me neither
<coz_> 50 gigs sounds nice  but 2 will do :)
<pr0xy> I've got like 5 now.
<coz_> cool
<coz_> pr0xy,  ok here is the new package     http://dl.dropbox.com/u/132551/UGR/UGR-Images.tar.gz
<pr0xy> Can you make the symetry one different from the color symmetry one?
<coz_> not sure what you mean
<coz_> pr0xy,  I can try a few plugins on it
<pr0xy> The color symmetry one is too similar to the noncolor one. can we toss the non-color?
<coz_> pr0xy,  thats up to you,, if you prefer the colored one ,, that's fine
<pr0xy> Which do you prefer?
<coz_> pr0xy,  well  the other bird variations are already  desatureated so keep the colored one,,, I will hold on to the images either way
<pr0xy> okay.
<coz_> pr0xy,   are you ok with the rest of the images?
<pr0xy> yep. what's your flickr thing?
<coz_> www.flickr.com/photos/coz_
<coz_> ok I am closing gimp ")
<pr0xy> ok
<pr0xy> oh! wait!
<pr0xy> jk
<coz_> ah oh
<coz_> already closed...what 's up
<pr0xy> lol
<coz_> phew
<pr0xy> I was kidding
<coz_> cool... dont do that again  lol
<pr0xy> okay
<coz_> lol
<pr0xy> what's with all the nude art?
<coz_> pr0xy,   i studies  nude drawing for a few years
<pr0xy> why?
<coz_> pr0xy,   its an excellent exercise for understanding the human form..and form that just about anything can be drawn
<pr0xy> i almost got in a shitload of trouble. i'm still a teenager...
<coz_> :)
<pr0xy> but I do run a business
<coz_> pr0xy,   yeah I know some people cant handle nudity  even in art
<coz_> pr0xy,  cool ,, what type of business?
<pr0xy> yeah, like parents.
<pr0xy> we're pretty much focused on ugr right now...
<coz_> ah
<coz_> ok all ,, it's now 9:17 pm here... have to do a few things before bed,,,  so I will be back tomorrow
<pr0xy> sorry, I had an idea. can you put alech or flower on the variations one?
<coz_> alech?
<pr0xy> yeah, the art
<pr0xy> what is alech?
<coz_> I dont know you typed it lol
<coz_> pr0xy,  you mean my flower  ink exercise ?
<pr0xy> it's between bird and flower on page 2
<coz_> mm you want that on one of the variations?
<pr0xy> but, flower would be better
<coz_> mm ok let me see if I can do this  hold on
<pr0xy> put it on top of the place where the bird one was in variation
<coz_> in place of birdsong-variation  ...yes?
<pr0xy> yes. in place of the actual art piece in birdsong-variation
<coz_> ok hold on that should be just a minute or so
<pr0xy> and dinobones would be cool, too
<pr0xy> the reason that I want the change to flower, is to vary things a bit.
<coz_> understood
<coz_> pr0xy,     http://dl.dropbox.com/u/132551/UGR/flower-song.png
<coz_> Interesting,, I see these india ink images a compositional excersises :)
<pr0xy> huh. they make really cool wallpapers.
<coz_> ok :)
<coz_> ok this time I really have to go ,, its near 9:30 pm here
<coz_> pr0xy,  so  this is what you wanted ...yes?
<pr0xy> yep. thanks a ton.
<pr0xy> good night.
<coz_> pr0xy,  cool,, now I guess I have to install ugr  when its available   :)
<pr0xy> yep
<coz_> :)
<coz_> ok night guys,, talk tomorrow
<pr0xy> okay.
#ubuntu-artwork 2011-04-27
<pr0xy> hey, coz_
<pr0xy> hey, zniavre
<zniavre> good afternoon
<zniavre> im looking for the way to modify the gdm theme (before natty i was using gksudo -u gdm dbus-launch gnome-appearance-properties but it does not work anymore)
<zniavre> i hav found in ubuntuforum a lovely way to change gdm theme
<coz_> zniavre,  this way?   http://dl.dropbox.com/u/132551/GDM/GDM-NEW.txt
<zniavre> that one yes
#ubuntu-artwork 2011-04-28
<Glass87> hi
<Glass87> #ubuntu
 * Glass87 thinks he,s on the wrong place
<vish> !support | Glass87
<ubot2> Glass87: The official ubuntu support channel is #ubuntu. Also see http://ubuntu.com/support and http://ubuntuforums.org and http://askubuntu.com
#ubuntu-artwork 2011-04-29
<fredrik_> hello
<darkmatter> hiho coz_
<coz_> darkmatter,  hey guy 8)
<coz_> 8)
<coz_> sorry big fingers and just awoke :)
<darkmatter> np. I havmt slept yet. lol
<darkmatter> <-- insomnia
<coz_> darkmatter,  oo guy,,, you need to sleep
<darkmatter> coz_: once I get tired ;)
<darkmatter> so trying to be productive. lol
<darkmatter> not getting much success with that
<coz_> darkmatter,  oh ok ,, I completely understand
<darkmatter> coz_: I'm smoking a redhat :O
<darkmatter> http://ubuntuforums.org/showpost.php?p=10734324&postcount=533
<darkmatter> :P
<coz_> darkmatter,  oo ,, I had to log into the forum :)  thats a very nice view there :)
<zniavre_> does css difficult ?
<darkmatter> zniavre_: the format for gtk3 is quite nice
<zniavre_> i read yesterday what s cimi said i a bit disapointed to make my own theme in css style
<zniavre_> i am*
<zniavre_> im installing gnome3 on vbox to hav a look also
<zniavre_> :o)
<darkmatter> coz_: gnome3 is fraking _light_ compared to vanilla gnome2+compiz. has more than enough eyecandy and uses half the resources :O
<coz_> darkmatter,  on fedora  yes?
<coz_> darkmatter,   and mutter is not acting up with over use of resources?
<darkmatter> coz_: yup. same on opensuse. but its default on fedora, so less crap than updating and breaking stuff
<darkmatter> coz_: nope. runs fine. only tradeoff is I'm using the nouveau drivers (they're actually quite good) because the nvidia drivers for my card have yet to be updated with proper glx :P
<darkmatter> but nvnews forums say that the legacy drivers will actully be getting updates to be compatible \o/
<zniavre_> 173 .14.xx?
<coz_> darkmatter,  oh !   honestly  I dont like gnome3  ... if they had gone the "gnome3  clever windows"  route   it would have over taken compiz  but  the diretion they are going in  is   not ever going to catch up.. and it makes we wonder why ,,like ubuntu,, they have not discarded mutter / gnome3   om favor of compiz
<darkmatter> coz_: running about 8% cpu (more if I have bloat like firefox running, obviously), and about 180 megs of ram on an empty session
<coz_> darkmatter,  whoa that is WAY  too much for a compositor
<darkmatter> coz_: thats not the compositor. thats EVERYTHING
<darkmatter> gnome 2 and compiz is heavier
<coz_> darkmatter,  well still thats more than  compiz and everything else
<coz_> darkmatter,  not here it isnt
<coz_> darkmatter,  compiz 0.9.x  is far less resource intensive than that
<darkmatter> coz_you probably have better hardware. gnome2+compiz uses 17ish% here
<coz_> I realize that in its infancy,, compiz was just a proof of concept...but that is Looong gone
<coz_> and it irritates the hell out of me that some developers  just got jealous about our progress over the years
<coz_> kde has their own compositor  one of its developers used to be a developer on compiz
<darkmatter> mutter is surprisingly _better_ in a lot of ways. not knocking compiz. but holy... cowpooh
<coz_> gnome doesnt surprise me with  mutter  but it is a big mistake
<coz_> seems to me,, that mark shuttleworth made the right decision about discarding mutter,, and hiring sam  to Canonical to get things done right
<coz_> sam being the developer on compiz now
<coz_> darkmatter,  sorry,, on this issue I have to disagree with  you  completely
<coz_> mutter is a mistake
<darkmatter> coz_: well, ubuntu had crap code with the clutter based unity. mutter is solid. I'm running on old and outdated hardware that compiz/unity i a slug on
<darkmatter> mutter is far from a mistake
<coz_> darkmatter,  mmm
<darkmatter> coz_: nvidia FX 5200, XP +2000 (1.67 Ghz) and 512 megs of ram
<darkmatter> snappy
<coz_> darkmatter,  maybe  but  gnome is causing an issue with gnome3  just as kde is trying to do,, to  banish compiz   ,, I dont see the development sense to that,, neither of them are as good as  compiz  certainly not at this stage and I doubt seriously that mutter will ever reach that stage,,  unless they went with clever windows
<darkmatter> coz_: bah. "banish compiz" :P I dn't care what the core compositor is, as long as it's pretty and runs smooth as silk ;)
<coz_> and being  gnome based,, mutter is always going to have  way fewer user choices and settings
<darkmatter> coz_: define "clever windows"
<darkmatter> mutters windows seem pretty darn clever to me
<coz_> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lsZvwyxJ9vk
<coz_> ^^ that was a mock up  titled , in the past as gnome3 clever windows
<coz_> had they gone ^^ that route  ,, they could have seriously  competed with compiz
<darkmatter> coz_: not argung against compiz, but "15000 settings" does not mean "better" it means more options. if thats yer thing. great
<coz_> mutter,, typcially a gnome  product,, didnt want or couldnt go that route
<coz_> rather a typcial gnome project
<coz_> product
<coz_> I only use gnome here,, but they are the most irritating group of developers
<coz_> they are subborn  , arrogant,, and in my opinion,, idiots
<coz_> mutter represents that same phylosophy  in my eyes
<darkmatter> lol. nice opinion, because they don't support compiz :P
<coz_> darkmatter,  no  not just that,, I have always felt that way lol
<coz_> darkmatter,  but in terms of compiz,, instead of working with the team,,, they fought it from day one
<coz_> darkmatter,  i once aked the developers for a command to  empty the recent documents,, they told me there is not such thing  and cannot be done
<coz_> pfft
<coz_> phfft
<darkmatter> coz_: I swear, mutter is better than compiz. sure, you can argue features. but mutters features are all anyone actually _needs_. if you want more. use compiz. lol
<coz_> darkmatter,  well yes  but that ;s not why mutter has fewer choices,,, it has fewer choices because of the developers and their stupidity
<darkmatter> coz_: oh come on. it has nothing to do with stupidity. all the needed features are there. do you _need_ wobbly windows? no.. I dun think so
<darkmatter> at least gnome is handled by actual designers now :P
<coz_> darkmatter,   eeww  not dude,, gnome's phylosophy is STILL .. users are idiots and fewer choices are better "
<darkmatter> coz_: its all about your opinion of what is a "feature"
<coz_> and yes I really need wobbly :)
<darkmatter> coz_: seriously? because I see "lets make things more usable for a larger number of people". I mean, unless your calling me an idiot. because I happen to like the "works out of the box and doesn't shove a bazillion tones of uselessness in my face" approach :P
<darkmatter> coz_: because until gnome3 I was about to _literally_ retire from using my computer
<coz_> darkmatter,  seriously?
<darkmatter> my poor cognitively dysfunctional brain couldn't handle it anymore
<coz_> darkmatter,  i was going to go back to BeOs if gnome3 prevents compiz
<darkmatter> too much useless clutter and crap
<coz_> darkmatter,  here's the issue,, there is absolutely no reason gnome developers couldnt put in a tick box for either gnome3 / mutter and  gnome with compiz
<coz_> there is nothing preventing that
<coz_> darkmatter,  but they will not
<coz_> darkmatter,  now compiz has to find another way around the issue
<darkmatter> unity is a freaking eye/butt/sore (just my opinion after having used it for a week)
<coz_> darkmatter,  that is absolutely true ^^
<darkmatter> coz_: what issue? run gnome in fallback, replace metacity with compiz, lol
<darkmatter> shell is deeply integrated with mutter for a reason, and it's not because of compiz :P
<coz_> darkmatter,  no  not replace metacity  because metacity is no more with mutter  .... mutter =  metacity-clutter
<coz_> darkmatter,  yeah this one I am in complete disagreement
<darkmatter> coz_: no. there is still metacity. its in fallback (aka: your ard cant/wont run shell or you don't want shell) mode
<coz_> darkmatter,  ok,, then its possible
<darkmatter> system settings > system info > graphics > force fallback mode
<darkmatter> *bam" metacity
<darkmatter> like magic
<coz_> darkmatter,  seriously ,, if all distributions go with gnome3,, which eventually they will,, I go back to Be
<darkmatter> an a gnome 2ish desktop
<darkmatter> coz_: if you hate mutte r/love compiz that much, feel free
<coz_> darkmatter,  :)  I do love compiz
<coz_> darkmatter,  and  the entire project has talked about this over and again when mutter first reared its ugly ass
<darkmatter> coz_: I'm not a fanboy. I call it as I see it. what I see is a desktop I can actually use, and that is faster/more productive for me. gives me awesome composited performance without the tearing I had with compiz.
<darkmatter> therefore I use it
<coz_> darkmatter,  mmm   I think this whole netbook mentality will fade at some point
<darkmatter> if it woulda been worse than compiz. then I would have threw a fit and moved to xfce :P
<coz_> darkmatter,  well  at this point I am still most definitly not a fan of mutter or gnome3,,,  I doubt that will change,, but I will at some point try it again
<darkmatter> the only thing I love is an environment that works for me (tm) ;)
<darkmatter> took me 30 seconds to learn gnome-shell :P
<darkmatter> shell is not the platform, just a small part of it
<coz_> darkmatter,  ok  I am not putting you down for using it,,, i just cannot wrap my head around gnome development mentality
<darkmatter> gnome3 as a whole is nice. I can understand some people not liking shell. use what works for you
<coz_> darkmatter,  this is true :)
<coz_> darkmatter,  I just have issues with their developers,, have for years,,, I dont like them
<coz_> :)
<darkmatter> but 25 years of computing. tons of gui' and crap. OS/2, next, beos (still love that), etc etc etc etc. gnome-shell is the best desktop (besides Be) I've had the pleasure of using ;)
<darkmatter> but just my opinion
<coz_> darkmatter,  wow that is some statement,,
<coz_> darkmatter,  well I will check it out again,,  no promises  :)
<darkmatter> coz_: but it's more gnome3 as  a whole. it has the speed/simplicity I crave. It's far from complete, being a fresh start (for the most part), so has a few holes, but if you compare it to kde4's initial release, it's far superior imo.
<darkmatter> desktop loads in about 4 seconds on this old rustbucket
<darkmatter> gnome2, unity, kde4 take about 3 days. lol (ok, not literally, just feels like 3 days :P)
<coz_> darkmatter,  ok ,, as I said,, i will try it again,,  I just cannot imaging my linux without compiz
<darkmatter> coz_: not trying to sell you on trying it, just stating my experiences
<coz_> darkmatter,  now KDE is absolutely beautiful  but rediculously resource intensive
<darkmatter> try what you like. maybe an osx lion vm. LOL:P
<coz_> darkmatter,  well I  know we generally think alike,, so I cant just dismiss  your opinions about it :)
<coz_> darkmatter,  never OSX
<coz_> darkmatter,  I would go windows before mac
<coz_> darkmatter,  at least windows has a compiz clone available
<darkmatter> mutter kinda reminds me of aero sans glass
<coz_> darkmatter,  mmm that definitly will not sell me lol
<darkmatter> coz_: not the resources, just the "enough" animations. they're different than aero though
<darkmatter> but thats why it reminds me of it. enough to be pretty. course I could say "reminds me of OSX" in that regard as well
<darkmatter> coz_: although mutter does do dialog sheets kinda like mac o.O
<vish> " <coz_> I just cannot imaging my linux without compiz "  same here... :)
<coz_> vish,  cool   my  favorite person now  :)
<vish> yay! ^Y take that darkmatter ! ;p
<coz_> lol
<coz_> yeah!
<darkmatter> I hate you. lol
<darkmatter> coz_: vish: I like cmpiz too. just saying mutter isn't any worse/better. just different
<coz_> :)
<coz_> darkmatter,  also  lol.... compiz changed the face of linux permanently and brought over thousands of people ,, and continues to do so,,more than anything has in linux's  18 years  ...so there  :)
<darkmatter> yeah... if you say so...
<coz_> lol
<coz_> darkmatter,  just playing with you guy :)
<coz_> darkmatter,  I understand your approach to things
<darkmatter> coz_: :P
<coz_> darkmatter,  I just feel that compiz has  attracted sooo many people to linux over that past few years,, something I dont think will happen again for about another 5 years,, I just dont see mutter  having that kind of global attraction
<coz_> any anything that pulls people from windows  over to linux,, is a good thing...
<darkmatter> coz_: compiz attraction is a corner case. most people switch because they're looking for a low-cost (or free) alternative that is relatively modern and compatible with what they require it for (so flash, java, blah blah blah. depending on individual usage cases). shiny is just icing. It may make it more appealing to some, but its not the selling point
<coz_> darkmatter,  no no guy,, spend more time in #compiz.. we get people daily who are new to linux and the ONLY reason they switched was compiz
<coz_> darkmatter,  and that has been consistent since beryl
<darkmatter> coz_: that's a _trivial_ fraction of people who switch, quite frankly
<darkmatter> you need to do your homework ;)
<coz_> darkmatter,   ah I dont know,, i have been keeping tabs on this,, and the increase has been approximate 40% of new users because of compiz
<coz_> darkmatter,  it is consistent,, and compiz has indeed pulled windows users over to linux,, my own clients  are also the same,, they love the fancy stuff but dont know what it is of course
<coz_> darkmatter,  and they love linux now as well ,, not necessarily because of compiz anylonger
<coz_> darkmatter,  most people I talk with say about the same thing,, Linux?  that is far too complex,, I am not that smart
<darkmatter> lol... and no. once again. 40%... lol. not knocking compiz. but that's just false. ;)
<coz_> darkmatter,  no dude  40% of the new users in #compiz  came to linux because of compiz
<coz_> darkmatter,  that has been consistent,, and I think many involved in linux feel the same as you do,, but its true
<darkmatter> oh. in #compiz. corner case explains corner case :P
 * darkmatter keeps harassing coz_ for kicks ;P
<coz_> darkmatter,  well  yes in a way,, but when you see the numbers stay consistent,, at least in that channel,, it does give pause for thought,,, compix has indeed brought over more people ,, aka windows users... to linux than anything in linux's 18 years
<coz_> it was a global reaction to something that was quite remarkable that neither apple or windows could offer
<darkmatter> opinions, opinions.
<coz_> lol
<darkmatter>  and compiz is a total rip of the compositor in longhorn 3(?)19. no lie. wobbly windows and all
<coz_> darkmatter,  not too confident to speak about that,, but remember even mac users have come over because of compiz
<darkmatter> microsoft dropped the features because 90% of users _hated_ it. lol
<coz_> darkmatter,  which is another testament for linux
<coz_> and the developers for compiz in my opinion
<coz_> darkmatter,  windows users... are generally business  oriented  and dont care about thisng like that
<coz_> however
<coz_> darkmatter,   the IT guy for the city of Largo Florida  has converted the entire city governments computers over to linux with compiz,, and it is more than wanted by all of the employees
<coz_> darkmatter,  dave_ largo  has a blog you can read about it
<coz_> it is quite remarkable and the first "official" installation of linux/compiz
<darkmatter> lol
<coz_> darkmatter,  I mean linux with compiz
<coz_> darkmatter,  it is the first  business / official use of compiz
<coz_> darkmatter,  and the employees wanted more features  when dave had only in itialy given them a few
<coz_> intially
<coz_> damn fingers
<coz_> inititially
<coz_> damn l;ol
<coz_> initially
<darkmatter> ;';
<darkmatter> ?
<darkmatter> :p
<coz_> darkmatter,  my fingers are way too big for this keyboard,, I am becoming accustomed to typos
<coz_> darkmatter,  i need to find a big key keyboard
<coz_> lol
<darkmatter> blogs do not fact make. not saying he's lying, just saying it doesn't make it "first" ;)
<darkmatter> Novell was the first pushing compiz _on by default_ back in its young days. just fyi. I'm pretty damn sure that put it "enabled" on entire infrastructures so they  could disable the bloody thing :P
<coz_> darkmatter,  well yes  dave worked for novell so that makes sense
<coz_> darkmatter  rather david what's his name who created compiz
<coz_> david reveman
<coz_> raveman
<coz_> damn damn fingers
<coz_> darkmatter,  but,,, novell did not push compiz as well as  beryl did,, and beryl was the beginning of the  global attraction to it.. it would have died with novell,,  had quinn storm not forked it
<darkmatter> coz_: I know. and once again. I'm not saying I don't like compiz. I do. but I don't base my choices on "who came first" either. if I did I'd still run XFree86. lol
<darkmatter> I _love_ what compiz is at it's core. I hate what compiz fusion turned it into. modularity ftw. but "basic modules in by default". not everyone wants emacs for a window manager
<darkmatter> theres too much fluff in compiz, and not enough filling
<darkmatter> once again, thats just a matter of packaging
<darkmatter> but you get the point
<vish> darkmatter: what does that even mean^ ?
<vish> "not enough filling"
<darkmatter> vish: tis a euphemism. look it up :P
<vish> darkmatter: almost what they are trying to recreate in mutter has existed in compiz for a long long while
<vish> darkmatter: i basically dont see the point to re-doing a new window manager , if you are basically going to be doing the same things again..
<vish> compiz is just a set of a whole lot of bling.. what you dont need just done use it, its as simple as that
<darkmatter> vish: so? lets drop kwin too. it recreates compiz features!
<darkmatter> for crying out loud. all I said is "there is nothing wrong with mutter"
<darkmatter> next thing you know I'll get lynched for liking windows 7
<coz_> yes please drop kwin
<vish> haha!
<coz_> what a rediculous rip off of compiz and one on a DE that is already resource intensive,, redicuilous
<vish> darkmatter: basically half of what mutter is doing or is planning to do is just what compiz could do 5yrs ago o.0
<vish> compiz can be bare bones too!
<vish> and the stupid thing is mutter can not work on legacy hardware..
<vish> so basically anyone using mutter as a WM is trying to act like Windows. if you want new version of Windows you need new hardware
<darkmatter> and what about the other half? oh, wait. compiz can't do that because it requires heavy handed integration. :P
<darkmatter> vish: I'm ON legacy hardware
<darkmatter> mutter works fine
<vish> darkmatter: i dont think you are  on real legacy hardware ;p see their wiki page
<darkmatter> vish. FX 5200. that counts as legacy by the wiki standards, so :P
<vish> darkmatter: maybe you are lucky, but not everyone.. ;)
<coz_> darkmatter,   I have a lesser machine and I admit compiz doesnt run smoothly,, and this is indeed a problem,, but  as it progresses and especially with the c++ verson ,, things are improving,,
<darkmatter> and most of mutters "hardware" issues are "software" issues. it's called get nvidiot and crapti to update drivers properly ;)
<vish> darkmatter: so those people are forced to use old gnome-panel when GNOME3 comes out..
<coz_> darkmatter,  I have that card on that machine as well
<vish> i really dont not understand their point of doing things only in mutter and telling compiz to sod off..  there is no possible way that things can ONLY be done like how it is now.. if it is so, then either the mutter/shell developers are soo basically ignorant to do WM things right
<darkmatter> to heck with it! I hate anything that changes! *pulls out slackware 3.5 and installs*
<darkmatter> *grumbles*
<vish> darkmatter: i dont mind changing the interaction, and doing any of the designs right now in compiz ;)
<vish> basically them shutting out compiz made it possible for Unity to even exist
<vish> or rather much more easier
<darkmatter> I can't run compiz in pekwm! ignorant pekwm developers! *grumbles* ;)
<vish> darkmatter: you dont seem to be getting the point, though mutter existed earlier, they are doing the whole mutter dev *for* Shell and changing a lot of things..
<vish> this is something that is being done new
<vish> and there seems no point in re-doing things again and for no perceivable benefit
<coz_> damn gome developers :)
<darkmatter> vish: vish you're missing the point as well. it doesn't _matter_. well, actually, it does. because mutter runs more efficiently here than compiz 0.9x. with or without unity. I win because I can still use my rustbucket *and* have eyecandy.
<darkmatter> choice is good. :D
<coz_> this is true ^^^^^^^^^
<vish> choice is good.. ;)
<coz_> absolutely  true
<coz_> which is why I hate gome developers lol
<vish> but at what cost? Ubuntu is not going to be shipping Shell anytime in the near future
<coz_> they do not have that phylosophy
<vish> and Ubuntu is the largest distributor of GNOME..
<coz_> thank  god,, krishna etc etc :)
<darkmatter> coz_: you have a choice. you can choose to run fallback with compiz
<darkmatter> lol
<darkmatter> I've actually done it :P
<coz_> darkmatter,   cool   and i will take that choice :)
<darkmatter> just for kicks
<darkmatter> like mutter better
<coz_> compiz rules  dude !
<coz_> lol
<darkmatter> coz_: by better I mean (on this hardware)
<darkmatter> err. (/"
<coz_> darkmatter,  I completely understand,, and it does irritate me that  linux may be getting to the point...soon.. where it may not run on lesser systems... with or withouth compiz
<darkmatter> dun ask me how I managed that flight of fingers
<coz_> lol
<coz_> plus if there is no compiz I cannot update the ccsm icons.. and then what will i do ??? :)
<vish> lol!!
<coz_> ok guys,, it is nearing lunch time here.. need to get some fruit or something ... be back in a bit  :)
<darkmatter> coz_: the problem is thus: it's not because of mutter/compiz/kwin alone. _most_ uncomposited linux(s) have obseleted legacy hardware already. it's a reality of evloving software technology
<darkmatter> like it or not. it is the way of things
<coz_> and another thing!  lol
<darkmatter> - darkmatter, 09:14 -
<darkmatter> coz_: the problem is thus: it's not because of mutter/compiz/kwin alone. _most_ uncomposited linux(s) have obseleted legacy hardware already. it's a reality of evloving software technology
<darkmatter> like it or not. it is the way of things
<darkmatter> sad but true ^
<coz_> darkmatter,  yeah that is an issue for sure
<darkmatter> coz_: at least its not a mac! :P
<coz_> darkmatter,  :)
<coz_> darkmatter,  well mac is "ok"  it is out of date in my opinion,, especially their menuing system which was designed to save realestate on 9" screens,, now ubunt has gone global menu,,  essentially identical to macs menus
<darkmatter> yeah. like. to run our os (if your not a hacker who wants to spend DAYS illegally installing it on x86) you need this incredibly overpriced yet shiny new box over here....
<coz_> the problem is that mac has not seen the inefficiency of their menuing system
<coz_> darkmatter,  :)
<darkmatter> not knocking apple hardware. but christ... I can get 4 comparable x86 systems fr the price of one. lol
<coz_> darkmatter,  but there is no longer mac hardware,, they no longer manufacture it ,, it is all pc hardware gone t hrough extensive  systems integration now
<coz_> thus the expense
<darkmatter> yeah. same difference
<coz_> darkmatter,  yet they cling to an  out of date menuing system because now it is  "mac" identifyable
<coz_> darkmatter,  and when I see ubuntu  moving to a mac like interface,, global menu,, buttons on the left,, I get worried
<darkmatter> and then there's unity...
<coz_> oy  yes and then there is unity
<darkmatter> ubuntu should rebrand to "I Wish I was a Mac(tm) GNU/Linux ;p
<coz_> darkmatter,  the mistake I think they are making is that Unity sh ould  be Unity1  a separate install from  Ubuntu
<coz_> darkmatter,  :)  I agree
<darkmatter> if only nvidia would hurry up and fix the glx in the 173 drivers I'd be an extra happy camper. lol
<darkmatter> they're supposedly working on it
<coz_> darkmatter,  yeah that is the downside of nvidia,,, the chipset itself is quite remarkable but their drivers never fully take advantage of it
<coz_> and they are slow for linux driver issues
<coz_> at least that's how I see it
<darkmatter> coz_: seriously. mutter/compiz/kwin all fail in there own unique ways on the proprietary 173xx drivers. on nouveau... not an issue (by not an issue I mean "they work')
<darkmatter> sure, compiz still has some tearing (not as bad as proprietary)
<darkmatter> but all three run
<darkmatter> kwin fails miserably on the proprietaries with compositing enabled
<coz_> darkmatter,  I agree,, but i still stand by the reason new users come to linux,, youtube  search for Ubuntu and most of the videos are about compiz in general
<coz_> darkmatter,  oh kwin is a pain in the ass  quite frankly
<coz_> darkmatter,  i think kde is quite beautiful... great looks,, really poor perforance
<coz_> darkmatter,  kde is definitly not for lesser or mid range systems.. a huge mistake on their part
<darkmatter> coz_: only _half_ the window redraws on 173xx with compositing in kwin. and people that complain about mutter being slow on the same drivers (it's a glx issue, not mutters fault. nvidia overwrites the default glx with there proprietary version (with less features)) has never tried kwin. :P
<coz_> darkmatter,  ah yes,,
<darkmatter> coz_: an any system (nvidia drivers in use) where shell/mutter lag. if you run a dbug output you'll see a bazillion glx errors.
<coz_> darkmatter,  most likely ,,, and I agree it is nvidia and its drives probably at fault,,,
<darkmatter> most of the so-called hardware issues are in fact _software_. it's not an issue with the new cards/drivers, since the libraries are updated with greater frequency
<coz_> darkmatter,  which is why they should open source the damn drivers... how many  proprietary companies  drool over open source developers especially t he driver  developers
<darkmatter> but. nvidia needs to either quite replacing stuff or upgrde there crap. lol
<coz_> darkmatter,  if it were open sourced their sales would increase since the drivers would be better
<darkmatter> coz_: it's a hardware dev trick. they WANT you to upgrade. I mean. I know the capabilities of this card just based off its components. it may be old, but its no slouch
<coz_> darkmatter,  very true,, and as I said, nvidia chipses are quite remarkable with their capabilites
<coz_> damn drivers
<coz_> chipsets rather
<darkmatter> coz_: most likely. I mean, I was hesitant about nouveau. but the few bits I've tested (incluyding some gaming) I get more FPS than the nvidia blobs. lol
<darkmatter> somehing smell funky, and its not me
<coz_> darkmatter,  yeah nouveau has a chance  ,, just imagine though if nvidia  open sourced the drivers
<darkmatter> coz_: yes. the benefits of nvidias specifics merged with the bits that nouveau does. :O
<darkmatter> I'd have a geekgasm
<coz_> lol
<darkmatter> I _love_ nvidia hardware. but seriously... D.R.I.V.E.R.S.
<coz_> darkmatter,  definitly agree
<coz_> darkmatter,  as far as my opinion goes.. nvidia chipsets   are great,, now we need nouveau to show nvidia what they can actually do
<darkmatter> yup
<darkmatter> its getting there. particularily on the older chipsets. still has a way to go on the newer ones
<darkmatter> but I _never_ thought I'd like a freetard video driver. lol
<coz_> darkmatter,  for sure,, as I said , if nvidia would only opensource the drivers... their sales would increase
<coz_> darkmatter,  :)  freetard  drivers
<darkmatter> coz_: exactly. nouveau breathed new life into this card on linux. nvidia's drivers are more feature rich, but don't take full advantage of their chipses. open sourcing and combining efforts .... oh boy
<darkmatter> dream come true
<coz_> darkmatter,  for sure,, maybe nvidia will see the benefits  financially if they opensource
<darkmatter> coz_: or if they don't opensource, at least hire the nouveau devs :P
<coz_> darkmatter,  oh yeah , well  I dont know if the nouveau people would do that,,  would be interesting
<darkmatter> coz_: thus the ":P"
<coz_> :)
<darkmatter> I mean. it's just a driver. lol. if they wanna keep wraps on certain bits. they can have lgpl and link there "miniblob" against the opensource primary
<darkmatter> that would work as well
<darkmatter> their*
<darkmatter> coz_: either/or. as long as they do _something_
<coz_> darkmatter,  for sure
<darkmatter> as they say. there's more than one way to skin a cat
<coz_> darkmatter,   ture but I like cats !! :)
<darkmatter> coz_: "any" open source license would do, even if it was of there own defining. as long as it passes the test
<coz_> darkmatter,  I ,, as usual ,, agree :)
<darkmatter> I mean, even _MICROSOFT_ has _two_ of them. and there the kings of the closed :P
<darkmatter> they're
<darkmatter> lol. brain is shutting down. I hope I get tired soon xD
<coz_> :)  see  arguements can lead to sleep :)
<darkmatter> coz_: I forsee death of this crt in a few weeks. it's been at the "takes forever to warm up" stage for about two months. lol
<darkmatter> thankfully I have numerable spares
<darkmatter> I should really invest in an lcd
<coz_> darkmatter,  that I understand,, I have had monitors die on me   I dont like that :)
<darkmatter> coz_: the deaths here are usually quite dramatic *fizzle* *screen starts going concave at the sides. turns pinkish*..... shrink... *RREALLY LOUD POP*
<coz_> darkmatter,  oo loud pops generally mean  capacitors
<darkmatter> yup
<darkmatter> occasionally flybacks too
<darkmatter> coz_: one death was fault insulation. high pitched squeal. gotta love plasma arcs xD
<coz_> darkmatter,  :)
<coz_> darkmatter,   I have a few spare 15" crts here,, I would hate to have to use them
<coz_> dual 15"  is NOT  nice
<darkmatter> coz_: next on my list is my 19" compaq. its a patch job. works, but occasionally needs a gentle whap (tube squeals. lol)
<darkmatter> but it works. just old and often repared
<coz_> darkmatter,  got to love the "whaps"  hardware
<darkmatter> keep it goi til it implodes
<darkmatter> coz_: ah. yet another "experienced in the fine art of slapping technology" I see :)
<coz_> for sure
<coz_> ok  I have to break here,, family needs groceries,, be back in a while
<mainerror> hello
#ubuntu-artwork 2011-04-30
 * darkmatter continues to randomly poke the hornets nest for poor vish. lol ;p
<darkmatter> at least it's keeping me distracted from getting all nerved up :D
<darkmatter> coz_: vish: hold my hand at the doctors office on tuesday! lol
<coz_> ok dude  I would if I were there
<darkmatter> just kidding. won't need it. just a routine checkup. found a small, previously not present, unidentified skin lesion earlier today.probably nothing, but doing my usual and getting it checked out anyway
<coz_> darkmatter,   are you sure this will be ok??
<darkmatter> coz_: "hoping". most lesions aren't malignancies, but, because of my prior condition, have increased chance of said issues, so playing it extra safe.
<darkmatter> I try not to worry about such things. gets me a little anxious. but whatever.
<darkmatter> worrying won't make it one or the other. It would just drive me crazy. lol
<coz_> darkmatter,  well I am even more worried now ,, my sister died a 10 days ago from pancreatic cancer,, they found it and 2 weeks later she was gone
<coz_> screenshot of natty    http://picpaste.com/pics/Screenshot-I6w8QYT8.1304121342.png
<darkmatter> coz_: little spot. just under my wasteline. so hopefully nothing bad *shrug* it could just be a mole. those popup sometimes. but since some moles aren't visually distinguishable from melanoma and such > dr. appointment.
<darkmatter> probably nothing. but I'n really obsessive about such things, and thats not a bad thing
 * darkmatter looks
<coz_> ok cool ,, you know your body  better than anyone
<darkmatter> coz_: nice. not really a unity fan. but nice desktop :)
<coz_> darkmatter,  its ok ,, put the launcher in to autohide and use one of my cairo dock themes in its place
<darkmatter> :)
<coz_> darkmatter,  way nicer that way :)
<darkmatter> coz_: I believe: even in alpha. all the buzz on the net about natty was "howUkil2LuncharKrap?' ;p
<coz_> darkmatter,  it was and still is,.,  it does boot like lighting though ,, although as usual,, the developers all have laptops and they have been removing an essential kernel thingie to detec my scsi drives on boot
<coz_> damn them to hell   lol
<darkmatter> lol.
<darkmatter> coz_: last kernel update puts my monitor to sleep halfway through boot in F15. lol
<darkmatter> so it gets to nap befor gdm
<coz_> oy
<coz_> damn developers  ,, seriously... leave things that work alone
<darkmatter> coz_: but it's beta, so an acceptable tradeoff, as long as they FIX it
<coz_> darkmatter,  an it fedora  so unlikely it will stay broken
<darkmatter> yup
<darkmatter> they tend to fix bugs. daily. even long after a stable release
<darkmatter> thats one think I like about them. busy beavers
<coz_> darkmatter,  I may try out fedora again,, I like the phylosophy they have ,, and they tend to be ahead of the game and moreexperimental especially with video stuff
<darkmatter> yup
<darkmatter> well.. I'm going to break for a bit. watch some tv
<darkmatter> bbl
<coz_> ok guy  rest up done worry
<Guest17538> Hi
<thorwil> http://vimeo.com/12865028
#ubuntu-artwork 2011-05-01
<coz_> hey all
<thorwil> from a quick skim, this looks like a great introduction to visual design: http://www.visualmess.com/
<coz_>  by the way ,,, good day all  :)
<coz_> who the hell is Ikonia?
<vish> coz_: why? whats wrong?
<vish> coz_: hez an op,  quick with the guns ;)
<coz_> vish,  oh  I was doing support in #ubuntu and he asked me to "stop saying that"  which was on ly  to one user   " I hope you didnt use  rm -rf / "
<coz_> vish,  i simply asked what he meant buy that
<coz_> vish,   he woldnt explain so I confronted him in another channel
<vish> hm..
<coz_> vish,   he felt ...because he is ops that what he says is the final word  however ,, someone with ops also needs exceellent people skills
<coz_> vish,  i cannot tolerate bad op  people skills,, there should be a point system for opts  :)
<vish> coz_: well, you could mention that in #ubuntu-ops
<coz_> vish,  nah ,,, I have been down this route before,,,  if I were a troll.. or intolerable in some way when i do support ,, i can understand
<coz_> vish,  but i try my best to be as open and friendly and give full explanations  regardless
<coz_> vish,    so  he goes on my  caca list   lol
<coz_> for now anyway :)
<vish> coz_: yea, ikonia can be a bit quick on the trigger often..
<vish> coz_: caca?
<coz_> vish,   caca is italian for  merde or   shit
<coz_> oiio
<coz_> poop
<vish> haha!
<coz_>  :)
<coz_> we had a few "quick trigger" people in #compiz at the beginning including a developer
<coz_> vish,  I had to threaten to leave the support team if something wasnt done
<coz_> but it turned out that most of the developers and support team agreed with me,, and devs have no control over support channel now
<coz_> well now there are only 2 of us left as support  :(
<vish> :s
<coz_> vish,  he said he would explain later "why"  but in my opinion ,, the explanation has to come with the request  otherwise you only alienate people
<vish> coz_: i think some of the ops have highlights for that command, and he might not have read the context
<coz_> vish,  well he may have been correct ,, but that wasnt the issue,, it was  an outright "demand"  with no explanation,, I cant tolerate that,, it alienates people,, and as much as I was offended by it,, and its results as making me look foolish,, it was more damaging to others  in the channel,,
<vish> :(
<coz_> that was what made me angry,,, an op MUST have exceptional people skills or he shouldnt have ops
<vish> yea..
<coz_> vish,  well thank you very much for letting me vent my feelings :)  I appreciate it  for sure
<vish> np.. :)
 * darkmatter does flappy arm motion in the direction of coz_
<coz_> hey buy
<coz_> hey guy
<darkmatter> what are you up to this fine sunday?
<darkmatter> I say "fine" because our "spontaneous, one day winter" has ended. lol
<coz_> darkmatter,  arguing in #ubuntu-offtopic with a few idiots  that seem to think they know everythin and of course that means I am wrong in their eyes lol
<darkmatter> lol
<coz_> oh boy ,, that ikonia guy is a real PITA
<darkmatter> *nods*
<tsimpson> coz_: insulting people is not CoC friendly
<coz_> tsimpson,  well this is true which is why I mentioned that
<coz_> tsimpson,  I am a very calm guy,, i generally get along with everyone,, no grudges or foul play or foul mouth,,, and I have decent people skills,,  withouth them no one should have ops,,, or evern do support
<coz_> and I also realize people have bad days
<coz_> I myself have one today as a result of ... someon on irc,, but I have let it go for the most part,, although i have already gotten PM's about particular behaviors with individuals
<coz_> so apologies to all offended by my statement,, i will not let it happen again
<tsimpson> if you have an issue with someone, try and work it out with them first. we're all human and sometimes forget that real people are at the other end of our messages
<tsimpson> if that fails, you can either let it go, or take it up with soma authority, in this case the irc council
<tsimpson> my point being, trying to work things out is a good thing :)
<coz_> tsimpson,  yes ,, unfortunately ,, reasoning with this particular person brought out more offensive behavior
<coz_> on his pare
<coz_> on  his part
<coz_> tsimpson,  I agree with you totally,, there are moments... as i am sure you have experienced,, when rational talk  does nothing to put out flames
<tsimpson> absolutely
<coz_> so I just go on assuming nothing has happened.. best way to undermine arrogance anyway :)
<darkmatter> coz_: often rational behaviour incites more flames. lol
<darkmatter> "quit ignoring my excellent insults you b***!" goes the offending brain :P
<coz_> darkmatter,  boy that's is unfortunately the truth
<coz_> darkmatter,  and :)  to second comment :)
<coz_> I just find this kind of behavior puzzling,, especially for someone with ops  or doing support,, the key is the user not the supporter or ops
<coz_> I think the responsiblility is somewhat humbling  not ego boosting
<darkmatter> coz_: It's usually some level of narcissism that causes it. although sometime the person is just a... hmmm... how to word this as channel-friendly?
<darkmatter> "gaping donkey butt"? ;)
<coz_> darkmatter,  I like that ,, "gaping donkey butt"  gdb
<coz_> :)
<vish> so i ran into gdb, err â¦ darkmatter, and we discussed the irony of life â¦
 * darkmatter beats vish with a blackjack
<coz_> :)
 * darkmatter is deciding whether or not to start on gtk work today
<coz_>  be back in a bit
#ubuntu-artwork 2012-04-24
<matttbe> Hello,
<matttbe> I've a bug only with the Ambiance theme and DbusGtkMenu menus from other applications than Unity panel and I just want to know how can I help you to fix this bug
<matttbe> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/light-themes/+bug/968133
<ubot2> Launchpad bug 968133 in light-themes "Menus built with dbusmenu-gtk on Cairo-Dock are unreadable only with Ambiance GTK theme" [Undecided,Confirmed]
<matttbe> This is how it looks like: https://launchpadlibrarian.net/100414459/Bug_menu_sound-controller.png
<matttbe> it seems submenu are differents: http://uppix.net/7/4/4/5faa54d41169abdaddfec60169a73.png
<matttbe> but it's a bit strange because the menu is normal and the text is made for a dark menu...
<matttbe> I've this bug with Cairo-Dock (with GTK3)
<matttbe> All GTKMenu are corrects except all DbusmenuGTKMenu
<matttbe> It seems for this menu it doesn't use: Genericmenuitem .menu, DbusmenuGtkMenu .menu, .menubar .menu, .primary-toolbar .menu
<matttbe> (gtk-widget.css:1045)
<matttbe> But for the menu item, it uses the configuration set in: Genericmenuitem .menuitem, DbusmenuGtkMenu .menuitem, .menubar .menuitem, .primary-toolbar .menuitem
<matttbe> I don't have this bug with Radiance theme and with Ambiance theme and Unity panel.
<matttbe> is it maybe because unity has its own .css file?
<matttbe> or is there a bug in GTK?
<matttbe> or Cairo-Dock?
#ubuntu-artwork 2012-04-26
<l3on> Hi all.. do you know someplace where I can find some image about precise?
<l3on> I need it for ubuntu.it website
#ubuntu-artwork 2012-04-29
<gwinnen> anyone here
#ubuntu-artwork 2020-04-20
<Sylvhem> Hi! Is this channel still in use?
