#ubuntu-uds-grand-ballroom-g 2012-05-07
<zyga> hey guys
<zyga> hrw, ricardo!
<zyga> hrw, please get me a t-shirt while the stock lasts ;-)
<zyga> is the IRC feed on the screen?
<wookey_> embedded is cool
<wookey_> zyga - insult someone and see if they reply
<wookey_> emdebian grip will get you down to 60MB or so, but that's not 'really small'
<wookey_> this idea was emdebian's scheme in about 2001 :-)
<wookey_> there is a very old implementations but it used CML to do the configuring, and CML is dead.
<zyga> I have a use case
<zyga> !
<zyga> wookey_, ^^
<Dr_Who> the concern I've always had with post processing or tools that put together the "minimal" fs based on a script is either way the intelligence is outside of the packaging system and away from the packages themselves,  so a package doesn't direct to the system it will be installed into what a minimum install is, so as times and packages change you have ongoing maint
<wookey_> yeah we like this stuff :-)
<zyga> wookey_, give me a tool that takes ubuntu archive and gives me a read-only initramfs image that I can boot and reboot and turn off the power and never corrupt the rootfs
<zyga> hrw, hey :)
<Dr_Who> yeah we are all fans :-)
<zyga> how would I just do that?
<wookey_> zyga wants it from the archve, not from a running machine. Can initramfs do that?
<zyga> maybe what I'm asking for is a tool that does that
<zyga> I'm sure it's doable
<zyga> wookey_, I really want to make that from my x86 system
<zyga> wookey_, then I want to copy that image to SD
<zyga> wookey_, if mkinitramfs is the tool, I'll check it out
<wookey_> The question is do we need to go smaller than what emdebian-grip does? (makes image about 2/3rds size)
<wookey_> without just decided we want openWRT or buildroot
<wookey_> The model people don;t want small images - they just want minimal executed instructions
<zyga> wookey_, without a use case to drive this discussion is hard
<wookey_> Does the router have enough RAM to run ubuntu?
<wookey_> It's simpler.
<wookey_> I wouldn;t say worse engineered
<zyga> wookey_, most ISP-giveaway routers I saw have between 4 and 16MB of ram
<wookey_> Why does someone want to run un-upgradeable ubuntu on router rather than openWRT or buildroot (or yocto/OE)?
<wookey_> Is it really useful?
<zyga> wookey_, more familiar maybe?
<zyga> wookey_, +  the upgrade would be image based, not package based
<rsalveti> yeah, we should just go with ubuntu/debian once we decided to have a working rootfs that would be able to update itself with packages
<zyga> wookey_, but routers run mips a lot and we don't have that supported
<wookey_> debian does :-)
<rsalveti> if you just want to be image oriented, using ubuntu is useful but we'd have better tools/distros to do that
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<zyga> wookey_, kernels could be a problem
<wookey_> agreed
<zyga> and you may brick some devices with bad image (where brick I mean it's hard to recover without extra tools/hw)
<wookey_> Emdebian baked targets exactly this area too
<chihchun> you can still upgrade openwrt package with opkg anyway
<wookey_> (un-upgradeable, but debian=packaged based)
<wookey_> i.e use apt externally so all metadata is external to image
<wookey_> still hard to get under 50MB
<wookey_> kind of...
<wookey_> SO yes I thinkg you can do this
<wookey_> but I haven't actually treid myself
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<wookey_> It uses apt/dpkg
<wookey_> but ocnfigured to keep metadata on the build machine
<chihchun> get under 50Mb means you probably need a customized feed package which using only busybox and small libraries
<wookey_> go look up 'emdebian baked'
<wookey_> chihchun: exactly - you have to go to busybox instead of gnu base
<wookey_> and debian/ubuntu don;t resally support that
<wookey_> We did the work once in emdebian crush but it was really hard and not really maintainable
<zyga> busybox in ubuntu would be nice
<wookey_> yes the inirmafs idea can make small images
<zyga> as an option
<wookey_> but I stil don;t really see what you get from using 'ubuntu initramfs' over openWRT or buildroot
<wookey_> because you've thrown away most of the goodness
<zyga> wookey_, I just want to use the ubuntu archive
<wookey_> I guess the /etc layout is more conventional
<timchen119> I rememberd freebsd could installed their base system under 50mb without busybox when they're 2.X, not sure about now.
<chihchun> the good feature of openwrt/openembedded is they also build dev env for you, how we do if we use initramfs approach
<zyga> wookey_, I don't want to learn about other distros / systems
<zyga> wookey_, just take a list of packages and get a small image that I can boot
<wookey_> initramfs boots off busybox right?
<zyga> wookey_, and optionally from initramfs, that I can ensure sudden power loss is not going to cripple it
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<wookey_> cross-arch installs work except for pre-inst scripts...
<zyga> wookey_, how many packages need pre-inst scripts?
<wookey_> which mostly don;t matter, but do for a few things (like mysql)
<zyga> wookey_, what happens with other scripts? do they run via qemu or on first boot ?
<wookey_> AH. OK. yes, that avoids the issue
<wookey_> OK, so what is need to try this idea out?
<wookey_> Does initramfs use busybox? Or GNU?
* ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-uds-grand-ballroom-g to: Track: Foundations | Create filesystems for embedded devices | Url: http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-q/meeting/20498/foundations-q-embedded-rootfs/ | Audio: http://icecast.ubuntu.com:8000/grand-ballroom-g.ogg.m3u
<wookey_> emdebian-grip tools take out docs from existing packages
<wookey_> (and languages)
<wookey_> otherwise packages are binary identical
<wookey_> Like hrw says that is instal-time stripping
<wookey_> emdbeina-grip is pre-install (after package build)
<chihchun_> initramfs uses busybox-initramfs
<wookey_> emdebian-grip overall gets you about 1/3rd smaller on a base system
<hrw> finally wrote name correctly
<wookey_> how do the initramfs tools deal with running stuff on top of busybox OK?
<wookey_> you can use dpkg from outside the image. so the data lives outside the image.
<wookey_> gzipped apt files would be nice
<hrw> apt files you can just remove
<hrw> dpkg files are problem
<wookey_> you have to download them again each time you want to update/upgrade, but yes.
<hrw> status can be compressed but info/ directory would have to be tarred to not eat inodes
<hrw> wookey_: you would fetch them anyway on update
<wookey_> I still haven't understood how initramfs made from ubuntu binaries works OK with busybox, but standard image cannot use busybox.
<wookey_> problem is usually use of unsupported options in init scripts or install scripts
<wookey_> and mount
<wookey_> and file
<wookey_> and all sorts of stuff
<wookey_> It is like the problem of using /bin/sh oinstead of bin/bash
<wookey_> if something _really_ needs coreutils it needs to say so...
<wookey_> 'essential' gets in your way here.
<wookey_> because thngs don't declare their deps at the low-end
<wookey_> indeed. I mean that you don't know whether a package need real mount or busybox mount
<wookey_> pics are embedded
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<rsalveti> thanks!
<rsalveti> lots of linaro folks
<rsalveti> :-)
<Dr_Who> thanks!
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* ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-uds-grand-ballroom-g to: Track: Other | Feedback on Precise Release and Improvements | Url: http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-q/meeting/20298/other-q-prior-release-feedback/ | Audio: http://icecast.ubuntu.com:8000/grand-ballroom-g.ogg.m3u
<NMinker> Did you just say the upgrade bug for amd64 still exists on the Precise CDs?
<bilal> NMinker: Not sure but I think that bug was squashed long ago
<bilal> not exactly "long ago" but I mean before Precise release
<NMinker> Alright, good to know
<bilal> NMinker: Again, don't take my word to be 100% sure, since I could be wrong
<bilal> since such bugs are largely hardware-specific.
<bilal> and there's a fair chance that someone out there still has problems
<NMinker> I had a problem when upgrade my amd64 VM (my normal one and the one I have for building ChromiumOS) from Natty to Oneiric
<cjwatson> NMinker: we fixed several such bugs, but not necessarily yours; please file a bug with 'ubuntu-bug update-manager' if you find problems with upgrades to 12.04, so that we have a chance of fixing them by 12.04.1
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<sladen> works for me!
<cjwatson> wc
<cjwatson> (oops)
#ubuntu-uds-grand-ballroom-g 2012-05-08
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<tgm4883> o/
<dmj726> o/
 * Dr_Who waves
<tgm4883> i'm listening
 * dmj726 runs
<dmj726> :P
<dmj726> I'm listening here and watching Mango.
<Saviq> morning
<tsdgeos> morning
<tsdgeos> ubuntu-uds-grand-ballroom-g
<dmj726> There are issues with udp multisink for UTV?
<Saviq> dmj726, we haven't really started yet, but what issues do you have in mind?
<dmj726> was just listening to the chatter
<dmj726> on the audio stream
<Saviq> oh ok didn't get that
<dmj726> I do.
<dmj726> mostly plugin development and some other bits for novacut.
<dmj726> played with live video streaming some too
<dmj726> ARM devices should have shared memory for CPU and GPU
<dmj726> Should we be targeting gstreamer 0.10 or 0.11/1.0?
<dmj726> that really changes what bindings are available as well
<dmj726> python bindings are totally different between the two
<dmj726> Best experience with gstreamer is C or python from experience
<dmj726> From what I've heard 1.0 is really designed with hardware support in mind.  Though manufacturers still need to support it.
<dmj726> how is GEGL integration?
<dmj726> have you done GEGL work recently?
<dmj726> performance isn't an issue
<dmj726> Python would be control logic only
<dmj726> then gstreamer does all work in C
<dmj726> so language using the bindings aren't an issue
<dmj726> The new bindings were roung a few months ago
<dmj726> jderose was working on rendering code back in january
<dmj726> situation has been improving and is better in 1.0 than 0.10 for the gobject introspection bindings from what I remember
<Saviq> I think Ted meant parsing tables?
<Saviq> willcooke ^?
<Saviq> most of the DVB spec with regards to table parsing is complete, we've been working with tsdgeos to improve that recently
<dmj726> pick hardware that supports the relevant codecs
<dmj726> gstreamer needs more unit testing work, badly
<dmj726> mpeg-ts can be choppy
<dmj726> talk with jderose about unit testing too, he was mentioning some things the other day
<dmj726> whole pipelines need testing really
<dmj726> many of the bugs result from combinations
<MrChrisDruif> Awesome those random coughs that just barely stop before deafening me completely
<dmj726> download is easier than upload!
<tgm4883> software encoders are lame
<tgm4883> I completely agree
<MrChrisDruif> lame encoder?
<tgm4883> MrChrisDruif, no, crappy
<MrChrisDruif> tgm4883; I know, just kidding ^_^
<Saviq> do I have to explain?
<dmj726> yes
<dmj726> we have done a lot to separate frontend and backend
<dmj726> can also ask me about it
<Saviq> there'd a backend that will talk to hardware
<Saviq> yeah here
<Saviq> and somehow we might need to get the data into the media player
<Saviq> which will be a separate process
<Saviq> ideally the data would remain in hardware
<Saviq> but we're targetting x86 too
<Saviq> so we need to plan for transferring the actual data between the backend and frontend for live playback
<Saviq> yeah but I'm not talking threads
<Saviq> true
<dmj726> Saviq: you mean processing backend vs display frontent?
<Saviq> sure, if it stays in the hardware then it's fine
<dmj726> yeah, you want to display directly via hardware
<dmj726> frontend only controls what pipeline does and sets up mechanism to display correctly
<Saviq> dmj726, sure, in SoC that's fine, but on x86 we might end up doing everything in software
<dmj726> Saviq: that shouldn't be a real difference except speed
<dmj726> the gstreamer sink element should handle that, no?
<Saviq> well, question is who owns the window
<Saviq> in which the video is displayed, and I'm unsure whether the DVB backend should
<Saviq> since we will have sources other to DVB
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<Saviq> so how do we make the separate media player play live data where it's the backend that holds the hardware?
<Saviq> thanks
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<Saviq> sure
<Saviq> of course
<Saviq> ok cool
<Saviq> ouch
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<Saviq> thanks all
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<cielak> yes!
<cielak> o/
<cielak> though laggy a bit, it seems :)
<s-fox> oops is a technical term, ask any developer ;)
<nxvl> There is something weird on the way it works for old time contributors, it seems it only checks for the unlocked ones, once they are check and more trophies are unlocked it will THEN check for the rest, instead of open accomplishments download + create all my trphies in one run
<cielak> nxvl: this is actually intentional
<nxvl> so i need to run Ctrl+N a couple of times before it checks all my trphies
<cielak> oh, then it's a but, it should re-check automatically whenever you accomplish anything
<cielak> bug*
<cielak> this may be related to an issue I've been recently working on, but the fix hasn't yet been released
<s-fox> cielak,  in the process of fixing the accomplishment mp
<mfisch> yay cielak
<mfisch> cielak: are you here?
<cielak> yup :)
<mfisch> cielak: where?
<cielak> here, in this IRC channel :)
<mfisch> cielak: haha i meant in Oakland
<cielak> not in Oakland :)
<s-fox> cielak,  i just submitted a fix.  revision 98. can you confirm i did it correctly?
<mfisch> no ideas for the etherpad?
 * s-fox looks at etherpad
<mfisch> it's empty ATM
<cielak> s-fox: yay! that's almost it, you just forgot to remove "twistd.pid" too
<cielak> and apart from that - it's great :)
<cielak> (s-fox is doing some really great job on ubuntuforums related accomplishments :D )
<s-fox> Where is twistd.pid?
<cielak> s-fox: root branch dir
 * cielak nods at accomplishments 'difficulty'
<s-fox> I agree with being relative, for example i found it easier to get ubuntu membership than bazaar branch merge
<cielak> s-fox: haha :D
<s-fox>  it was also easier for me to get on the ubuntu forums council than the bazaar accomplishment, haha :D
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<s-fox> cielak,  i think i fixed it...again :D
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<cielak> s-fox: brilliant! great job ;)
<s-fox> I fixed it? :D
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<cielak> I am not sure about that drawing trick
<mfisch>  I really like the idea of human granted "kudos"
<cielak> it may get really difficult for some reasons :)
<mfisch> does everyone know the IRC channel?
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<cielak> yeah, thanks all! :)
<cielak> thanks jono! :)
<s-fox> See you  :)
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<gmb> tumbleweed, ssh ubuntu@ec2-184-72-20-246.us-west-1.compute.amazonaws.com
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<linuxtech> apt-listchanges already list changelogs depending on how it is configured.  It doesn't show source changes.
<stokachu> what about errata's?
<Effenberg0x0> Balloons read PVT
<greymech> Alternative = PDF doc tutorial in examples folder
<greymech> proff reading by an ordinary user
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#ubuntu-uds-grand-ballroom-g 2012-05-09
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<jbicha> but desrt, it's only Tuesday!
<jbicha> howdy!
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<sladen> :)
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<mpt> I'd rather present opt-in for early (unphased?) updates together with the opt-in for other software channels
<mpt> That I'm happy to submit usage data doesn't mean I want to be on the bleeding edge
<mpt> It may be true that fewer people go into those channel settings, but that doesn't matter anyway, right?
<mpt> We don't want huge numbers of people choosing unphased updates
<cjwatson> mpt: I agree that we wouldn't want lots of people choosing unphased updates; I was thinking more of encouraging people to opt into phased updates
<cjwatson> i.e. opt into seeing bugs earlier for us
<j-johan-edwards> (ignorant) does apt have reasonable rollback capabilities? If not, doesn't this sort of thing need to wait until Btrfs or some other snapshotting/restore functionality lands?
<cjwatson> j-johan-edwards: we were discussing that earlier; in practice, it will be OK for most post-release cases
<mpt> cjwatson, why would it not be on by default?
<j-johan-edwards> ah
<cjwatson> j-johan-edwards: it goes wrong in cases where people write maintainer scripts incautiously, but that tends to be for major changes the like of which we don't usually have post-release
<mpt> (Maybe you covered this earlier in the session, sorry if so)
<cjwatson> mpt: good question; perhaps I have an unwarranted assumption
<cjwatson> I suppose it depends whether you think of the starting point as 0% (in which case we're asking people to see more bugs than they might otherwise) or 100% (in which case we're allowing people to have a lower probability of encountering bugs)
<mpt> Maybe I'm contradicting myself too -- if it's on by default, then people aren't choosing to be on the bleeding edge as I mentioned above, they might be there already
<cjwatson> The current state is 100%, everyone unphased
<cjwatson> But we were talking about using this to phase -proposed
<mpt> I see
<cjwatson> Which would imply giving people updates earlier than currently, so that feels like something they might need to opt into?
<mpt> fair enough
<cjwatson> We could alternatively phase -updates; we'd been talking about doing that in a later stage of work (but not set in stone ...)
<mpt> What proportion of machines are opted in to -proposed right now?
<mpt> If it's only ~1%, then phasing that won't make much difference
<j-johan-edwards> mpt: actually, a true random sample of 1% of Ubuntu users would absolutely be good enough for canarying
<j-johan-edwards> for the same reason political polls don't have to poll more than 1% of the country to get an accurate result
<j-johan-edwards> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sample_size
<mpt> j-johan-edwards, sure, but my point is that if you already have only ~1% opted in to proposed, phasing that won't dramatically reduce the proportion of people who get exposed to bad updates.
<mpt> Whereas if you have ~95% opted in (because it's on by default), phasing that *will* dramatically reduce the proportion of people who get exposed to bad updates.
<cjwatson> I was hoping that we could expose this to more than the set of people currently opted into -proposed
<cjwatson> I'm not sure I'm opposed to on-by-default
<j-johan-edwards> But ostensibly, people opting in to -proposed would be more able to handle difficulties / be more passionate about Ubuntu
<cjwatson> We could do the phasing only at the point when we would ordinarily have pushed to -updates
<cjwatson> Rather than at the point when we have no idea whether it fixes the bug
<mpt> So you'd effectively be phasing -updates rather than -proposed?
 * mpt realizes that he doesn't know how to present this option anyway, wherever it goes
<cjwatson> I'm not sure :-)
<mpt> "Show non-urgent software updates: (*) Immediately  ( ) Eventually"
<cjwatson> At the moment I'm more interested in making the phasing work at all
<jbicha> lol :)
<cjwatson> I agree the UI design needs to know this; the archive-side technology is pretty much the same whether it's -proposed or -updates
<mpt> I wonder how well the up-to-a-week wait, for Update Manager to show non-security updates, effectively phases them already
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<mpt> The up-to-a-week wait isn't for phasing purposes, it's to save Update Manager from interrupting people every day for non-urgent things.
<mpt> So I'd really rather not get rid of it.
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<mpt> thanks everyone
<Riddell> hi?
<txwikinger> hi Riddell
<txwikinger> I need to find the ice stream .. one moment
<txwikinger> ok.. I am listening now
<Riddell> txwikinger: there's only two of us here!
<txwikinger> Is wayland already good enough to go?
<txwikinger> So it is only for development now as a package?
 * txwikinger has a google drive
<txwikinger> English
<txwikinger> I have used language packs before, so I can certainly test when needed
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<shadeslayer> hah
<txwikinger> foreign languages? When do you start to talk Gaellic to us Riddel?
<shadeslayer> Steve Jobs is back from the undead?
<shadeslayer> :D
<txwikinger> He is a deamon
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<txwikinger> GUI? for juju charm?
<txwikinger> interesting
 * shadeslayer opens icecast
<txwikinger> Next room 204?
<shadeslayer> txwikinger: which room is that?
<shadeslayer> argh
<shadeslayer> hey!
<shadeslayer> don't do that :P
<shadeslayer> ...
<txwikinger> what?
<shadeslayer> txwikinger: room 204
<txwikinger> kubuntu iso
<txwikinger> images
<shadeslayer> right, which room is that?
<txwikinger> room 204
<shadeslayer> nvm
<jbicha> good morning
<jbicha> hi, about the Quantal release schedule...
<jbicha> I think the Docs Freeze is too late, it leaves only a few days for translations
<jbicha> o/
<jbicha> and we already have usable nightly quantal images apparently
<jbicha> lol
 * jbicha has to log out in 10 minutes
<jbicha> bye, see y'all a bit later
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<manjo> who is publishing performance spec etc from the various configurations of hw ? ie power consumption etc ?
<manjo> s/spec/data /
<manjo> does the ocp spec talk of TPM SRTM/DRTM secure boot etc ... for security ? I don't think I see that on the website. or it is just a purely HW spec ?
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<cielak> \o/
<s-fox> wb cielak  :)
<cielak> :-)
<s-fox> Is the stream on the same link as yesterday?
<cielak> yup
<cielak> the same
<cielak> though silence now
<s-fox> I hear someone tapping away at a keyboard ;)
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<s-fox> cielak,  new topic :D
<cielak> :)
<s-fox> Hey tv
<s-fox> Sure, no worries
<bobweaver> there is like this crazy buzz coming in maybe feedback ?
<bobweaver> lol it is driving my dog nuts :)
<cielak> :-)
<s-fox> :-)
<cielak> sure!
<Pendulum> it's on
<s-fox> no, we can't hear you ;)
<Pendulum> (I'm listening in as I needed to lie down)
<cielak> no problem ;)
<sagaci> :)
<dylan-m_> http://wiki.ubuntu.com/Accomplishments
<JoseeAntonioR> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Accomplishments/Creating/Guidelines is the link we're actually seeing.
<cielak> hehe :) no problem, you're doing well ;)
<s-fox> cielak,  is awesome
<cielak> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Accomplishments/Trophies
<cielak> I guess this is that one: http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~jonobacon/ubuntu-community-accomplishments/trunk/view/head:/accomplishments/ubuntu-community/en/community-council-member.accomplishment
<s-fox> We added 1 new one today actually jono :)
<cielak> yeah, been working on Ubuntu Forums trophy icon ;)
<cielak> the script for CC Member is available here: http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~jonobacon/ubuntu-community-accomplishments/trunk/view/head:/scripts/ubuntu-community/community-council-member.py
<s-fox> Installing - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Accomplishments/Installing
<cielak> the release PPA ppa:ubuntu-accomplishments/release
<bobweaver>  sudo add-apt-repository ppa:ubuntu-accomplishments-admins/    <~~ which one
<cielak> daily PPA ppa:ubuntu-accomplishments-admins/daily
<bobweaver> Making a back button would be nice
<bobweaver> by "my trophies"
<cielak> bobweaver: but going 'back' always leads to the same location, so a 'back' button would do exactly the same as clicking 'my trophies', right?
<bobweaver> cielak,  I will talk to later about this. :)
<cielak> sure :)
<s-fox> jono you have 4 or 5 from me that need merging into the trunk :-)
<cielak> indeed ;)
<bobweaver>  I am
<SpamapS> did somebody say juju charms? ;)
<s-fox> Hi SpamapS :)
<nxvl> Jono: is there any guidelines for that?
<SpamapS> heh sorry, wrong room/audio feed. Submit your juju charms..
<nxvl> as in documentation for creating such packages/ppas?
<cielak> nxvl: are you looking for https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Accomplishments/Creating/Guidelines ?
<nxvl> cielak: nope i mean technical
<bobweaver> I ould like too help on the UI side of things :)
<bobweaver> would *
<cielak> nxvl: what exactly you mean?
<cielak> bobweaver: great, there is a lot of work that has to be done to the accomplishments viewer (which is the GUI part), so you'll surely find something for yourself!
<nxvl> cielak: i mean the example jono just give, "what if IT LoCo wants" and he answered "Do you own" is there a document that answers "How to do my own"
<cielak> nxvl: yes! we have a detailed tutorial on that! https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Accomplishments/Creating/Guide
<bobweaver> cielak,  I will push some stuff in the next couple of days I am swamped with zpanel atm
<cielak> +1 for 'accomplishments needed'
<bobweaver> Ubuntu Hour
<bobweaver> for loco team ^^
<cielak> bobweaver: cool - any contributions are always welcome :)
<bobweaver> what about getting stores to carry ubuntu live cds or docs ?
<bobweaver> maybe tie that into lp ^^
<bobweaver> talk too system 76 to get a sticker thing going like for the super key ?
<philipballew> seems like a interesting idea bobweaver
<bobweaver> make accomplishment for that
<bobweaver> went to UDS
<cielak> yeah, becoming a CC member is easy - just register on LP and become an Ubuntu Member - much easier then using Bazaar, right, s-fox? :-D
<s-fox> Totally cielak
<s-fox> It was also easier to get on the forums council  ;)
<s-fox> You know one of 7 seats on a forum of 1.6 million members. lol
<cielak> hehe :-)
<cielak> is there really... 1,6 million members? did not know, WOW, this is awesome!
<s-fox> cielak,  we average around 1K new members registering PER day
<s-fox> The numbers are scary
<s-fox> ;)
<cielak> stared team/project on lp may result in people registering pointless teams/projects...
<jtatum> wow
<cielak> s-fox: oh wow, the community is so HUGE... I would never suspect that
<s-fox> cielak,  Yes, that is why we are really trying to push for awareness to new users in things like the default firefix bookmarks and ubuntu installer slides
<s-fox> :)
<cielak> there is a problem with translations
<cielak> no launchpad API for them
<cielak> but translation team member would be a good one to start from ;)
<s-fox> i know a member of the translation team
<cielak> nope jono, you did not :)
<cielak> you merged it locally, but that's not in trunk yet :)
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<cielak> aah, +1 :-)
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<cielak> yeah, thanks everyone! :)
<s-fox> Thanks everyone :)
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<wookey_> infinity is going to connect
<cmagina> one important thing i see with these automated tests is looking for regressions from release to release
<cmagina> :)
<cmagina> robie already mentioned it
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#ubuntu-uds-grand-ballroom-g 2012-05-10
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<Effenberg0x0> Oh I got one
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<arosales> hello
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<xnox> My friend adds grub PC sound - it's Super Mario theme tune.
<xnox> it was crytical for me to bring it back on reinstall
<xnox> (grub supports playing sounds on boot)
<NMinker> I personally use burg
<xnox> NMinker: is that UEFI or BIOS?
<xnox> (mbr)
<xnox> NMinker: looks nice and better than rEFIt
<xnox> I wonder if we can package and install it from the mac+amd64 image
<mpt> When would the debconf error appear?
<NMinker> https://launchpad.net/~n-muench/+archive/burg/+packages copied from natty because of GCC build issues
<mpt> Is the point of using debconf just that it can output either to console or GUI?
<NMinker> I didn't develop burg, I just put it in a repo
<cjwatson> the point is that it's the standard interface for emitting errors from package maintainer scripts, and yes that it has multiple frontends
<mpt> And update-grub falls into the category of "package maintainer scripts"?
<cjwatson> NMinker: right, I'm just giving you my advice as the grub2 maintainer that burg is abandoned :-)
<NMinker> I know
<cjwatson> mpt: Not directly, but all the cases we're concerned with here are cases where it is called by package maintainer scripts
<mpt> ok
<NMinker> I don't maintain it, I put in my repo for convience
<mpt> oh, like installing an updated kernel
<cjwatson> Right
<mpt> The current plan for the error tracker is to start treating debconf errors in general as problems to report, but that wouldn't be so useful for personally-created syntax errors
<mpt> I'd enjoy designing an interface for graphical customization of the most common things that people currently manually edit the grub config for.
<cjwatson> I think that would be great
<cjwatson> There have been a few efforts at this kind of thing, e.g. startupmanager, but they've been sort of incomplete and problematic
<cjwatson> Brutal scope pruning might help
<cjwatson> The fact that these are personally-created is the main reason I think using debconf would be OK
<mpt> Just to invoke Postel's Law briefly, might it make sense to silently treat Unicode quotes as if they were Ascii ones? :-)
<cjwatson> But perhaps we should work out a way to whitelist certain debconf questions in the error tracker
<cjwatson> Shell can't, but we could auto-fix the file
<cjwatson> And I think we probably should, much though it obscurely offends me :-)
<cjwatson> But only in an "offended by the brokenness of the world" kind of way
<mpt> Hey, at least you don't work for a Web browser or mail client vendor
 * xnox =)
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<mpt> yes please
<mpt> dependent on bdmurray's for identifying the common cases
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<jtaylor> what kind of a jit does mono use?
<jtaylor> just compiles function which are often used or a tracing jit like e.g. pypy?
<RAOF> I don't think so.
<jtaylor> that would involve changing all arch all packages to arch any
<jtaylor> so the native and the IL code will both be installed?
<directhex> gah, this stream is choppy
<ajmitch> common complaint here, sorry
<directhex> seems to have smoothed out now, more or less
<directhex> er
<directhex> one old blocker was over paths
<directhex> something like you can't have your aot images in a different folder to your il, which is a multiarch problem
<RAOF> But we don't have a multiarch mono, right?
<directhex> dlr-languages builds fine, but the git is really unclear
<directhex> tens of megs of binary dll cruft
<directhex> like copies of silverlight, things like that
<directhex> the only real blocker is someone making a "clean" tarball
<RAOF> Are we likely to have both mono:armhf and mono:amd64 installed simultaneously?  If not, we don't need to care about paths.
<directhex> i don't see that as a likely situation
<directhex> armhf is fucked btw
<RAOF> YAY!
<directhex> p/invoke segfaults
<directhex> so it builds and runs, until anything p/invokes anything
<directhex> problem is mono is expecting armel ABI
<directhex> mono doesn't support the armhf ABI at all
<directhex> it's about 500 lines of changes. i woulc conjecture. if i had seen a non-public port.
<directhex> zoltan vargaz has offered to coach anyone eager to do a port
<directhex> but cannot write a line of code for it
<RAOF> Maybe once I actually get an arm device I'll go for it.
<directhex> i have an efikamx but i haven't managed to run dist-upgrade on armhf debian on it without it becoming unbootable
 * RAOF *should* be getting a pandaboard or something shipped to him.
<directhex> unrelated: i want monodevelop to have a "publish to PPA" button within a year. it'd be neato.
<directhex> mono, not cli-common, since the aot cache is mono-specific
<directhex> of course, dotgnu never did get resurrected, so that's an academic distinction
<directhex> and nobody ported .net micro to linux
<directhex> still, abstraction is good for the soul ^_^
<directhex> more alive than plenty of core things in linux, tbh
<directhex> still lots of critical tools last touched in 2006ish
<directhex> (note: i have no idea how much latency there is in the audio, so i don't know if i'm communicating with 5 minutes ago)
<directhex> so time my jokes for about 10 seconds of delay. got it.
<directhex> oh, i was looking at doing CI snapshot packages, with upstream
<directhex> i.e. served off a mono-project.com repo
<directhex> waiting for some feedback from miguel
<directhex> not system packages though, it'd be hell to maintain a full set like that
<directhex> so mono-snapshot-201205101945 installs to /opt/mono-snapshot-201205101945, registers as a GAC runtime, and can be pushed into the environment via mono-snapshot command
<directhex> it's a work in progress. it'd help if someone could sync environment-modules from debian
<directhex> also i need to work out why modules only works via ssh, not interactively. debug time for jo
<directhex> at any rate, it might be useful
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<directhex> upstreaming things is easy if you do it via github forks, and ping the right people on irc
<directhex> they also like unit tests
<directhex> i've only broken the mono build a half dozen times Â¬_Â¬
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<directhex> okay, that was an interesting session
<directhex> all the fun of UDS, without the 8 hour flights
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<med_> Did you guys already talk about fixing archives for ARM, (ie making ports.ubuntu.com avail in cloud-init)
<med_> smoser, utlemming ^
<arosales> oz =http://aeolusproject.org/oz.html
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<trism> it is listed at the top of the shell theme css
* ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-uds-grand-ballroom-g to: Track: QA | Improving Smoke Testing Coverage | Url: http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-q/meeting/20519/qa-q-builds-smoke-testing/ | Audio: http://icecast.ubuntu.com:8000/grand-ballroom-g.ogg.m3u
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* ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-uds-grand-ballroom-g to: Track: Desktop | Kubuntu Quantal Docs | Url: http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-q/meeting/20594/kubuntu-q-docs/ | Audio: http://icecast.ubuntu.com:8000/grand-ballroom-g.ogg.m3u
<Riddell> jo
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* ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-uds-grand-ballroom-g to: Track: Community | Etherpad Lite Summit integration | Url: http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-q/meeting/20746/etherpad-lite-summit-integration/ | Audio: http://icecast.ubuntu.com:8000/grand-ballroom-g.ogg.m3u
<IdleOne> o/
<pleia2> john is too weird, you are IdleOne
<bobweaver>  \0/ http://lintian.ubuntuwire.org/precise/tags/spelling-error-in-description.html
<JoseeAntonioR> IdleOne: ping
<IdleOne> pleia2: I agree
<IdleOne> hola JoseeAntonioR :)
<AlanBell> https://github.com/Pita/etherpad-lite
<AlanBell> https://github.com/Pita/etherpad-lite/wiki/HTTP-API
<AlanBell> https://github.com/devjones/PyEtherpadLite
<AlanBell> where would the python API wrapper go?
<AlanBell> can summit wget etherpad-lite? can the server internally resolve the other one?
<AlanBell> http://10.155.43.248:9001/p/udspad
<AlanBell> http://mumble.libertus.co.uk:9001/p/unitypopups
<IdleOne> ________________
<IdleOne> < Etherpad rocks >
<IdleOne>  ----------------
<IdleOne>         \   ^__^
<IdleOne>          \  (oo)\_______
<IdleOne>             (__)\       )\/\
<IdleOne>                 ||----w |
<IdleOne>                 ||     ||
<med_> moo.
<popey> http://popey.com:9001/p/udspad
<popey> that url is port-forwarded to the version on AlanBell's laptop
<bobweaver> blog post ?
<popey> blog post?
<IdleOne> blog post?
<JoseeAntonioR> blog post?
<bobweaver> helloo
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<IdleOne> Hi bilal !
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<IdleOne> wish a few more people would have shown up for the hangout. have a good night folks.
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<bobweaver> Thanks for all the info those that are flying home have a safe flight
