#ubuntu-uds-grand-ballroom-c 2012-05-07
<SpamapS> ahhh, the hum of UDS
<SpamapS> o/
<SpamapS> pong
<SpamapS> .org backslash foo
<smoser> hello, mr SpamapS
<achuni> aha
<SpamapS> what is your launchpad username? You need to be in ~ubuntu-etherpad
<geofft> is there a link to a good technical description of juju for those of us who haven't been paying attention?
<geofft> I'm afraid "DevOps distilled" just confuses me more
<SpamapS> I believe archive refresh frequency was increased during the P cycle
<SpamapS> The Packages file could be versioned, and the Release file would only point to one version that is already known to exist
<SpamapS> Release file contains hashes for Packages.gz , Packages.gz and Release are not updated at the exact same time.
<med_> geofft, https://juju.ubuntu.com/   Juju provides service orchestration.
<med_> geofft, you could possibly ask for more tech info in #juju-dev
<med_> https://juju.ubuntu.com/Documentation
<med_> https://juju.ubuntu.com/docs/faq.html
<geofft> med_: the Documentation page is helping a bit, thanks.
<SpamapS> $ wc -l /var/lib/apt/lists/mirrors.kernel.org_ubuntu_dists_precise_Release
<med_> geofft, also, feel free to ask those type of questions on #ubuntu-server. I probably should have referenced it first.
<SpamapS> 492 /var/lib/apt/lists/mirrors.kernel.org_ubuntu_dists_precise_Release
<SpamapS> This problem presents itself in web development as well. Think of the network of Ubuntu mirrors as a CDN .. when yahoo wants to update an image, they do so by appending a query string to the URL which forces CDN caches to re-fetch it from origin...
<SpamapS> the format on the archive may not need to change
<SpamapS> o/
<SpamapS> NO
<SpamapS>  077178d834ac0195a9141ed0aa8568f684776dc57d33edf3e6b38c9a2543f256          1677114 main/binary-amd64/Packages.gz
<SpamapS> can become $MIRROR/main/binary-amd64/Packages.gz?hash=077178d834ac0195a9141ed0aa8568f684776dc57d33edf3e6b38c9a2543f256
<SpamapS> o/
<SpamapS> o/
<SpamapS> o/
<SpamapS> o/
<SpamapS> ^^
<SpamapS> ^^
<smoser> reading now dummy
<smoser> :)
 * SpamapS takes a deep breath
<SpamapS> Sorry I had a local interruption when you guys responded
<SpamapS> ?
<rbasak> So we would add a new by-hash/07717...256 symlink which points to the correct versioned Packages.gz file. That's all.
<SpamapS> why do we need a new file?
<SpamapS> It does mean you may still get a fail, but you just need to fetch again.
<SpamapS> its not dynamic respondse
<SpamapS> its just avoiding caching the wrong file
<SpamapS> yes its a much tinier window though
<smoser> SpamapS, on a very dumb object store it is different.
<SpamapS> smoser: I'm only avoiding problms in the intermediate caches. Are you saying S3 would interpret the query string to mean something?
<smoser> as its a different path. you're suggesting that the web service will know to cut off ?.*. but thats an assumption (i'm not sure if it is true with s3 or not)
<SpamapS> smoser: understood, they may just make that a static lookup and not chop it off.
<smoser> s3 does seem to chop ?.* off
<SpamapS> rbasak: I made that assertion incorrectly btw, pdiff doesn't solve the problem :-/
<SpamapS> are there issues w/ symlinks in S3?
<tumbleweed> presumably copies aren't a problem
<smoser> there are no symlinks in s3.
<smoser> you just have to load additional files.
<tumbleweed> we're only talking about symlinks for Packages  files...
<SpamapS> right ok so its just a second stored copy
<smoser> right.
<SpamapS> 6 minutes. Actions?
<SpamapS> I'd suggest moving those Actions to the top of the etherpad, hard to find in there
 * SpamapS goes afk
<xnox> [TOPIC] Plans for Python 3.3 (and 3.4) availability
<xnox> Plans for Python 3.3 (and 3.4) availability
<xnox> http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-q/meeting/20416/foundations-q-python33/
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<xnox> anyone knows where is the link to Barry's way of building python2 & python3 packages from the same debian source package?
<jtaylor> http://wiki.debian.org/Python/LibraryStyleGuide probably
<xnox> jtaylor: thanks a lot
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<xnox> udsbotu: stop spamming us ;-)
<udsbotu> xnox: I am only a bot, please don't think I'm intelligent :)
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<brendand> hi!
<timchen119> o/
<josephliu> o/
<brendand> o/
<brendand> it's worth pointing out that we do test the *reader*, just not with the specific mmc format
<brendand> how often do we see *only* mmc cards not working?
<brendand> also, does it achieve 3.0 speeds
<brendand> ?
<brendand> you don't need to drop them to test that
<roadmr_uds> brendand: the synthesizing event is a good proposal :)
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<zyga> hello
<ppetraki> hi
<spineau> hello !
<SpamapS> o/
<zyga> hey cr3!
<ppetraki> o/
<roadmr_uds> zyga, ppetraki : got questions or comments?
<ppetraki> roadmr_uds, ny, thanks
<roadmr_uds> do let me know if there are questions or comments so I can alert people here
<zyga> I'm interested to hear more about what's described, are there any slides too?
<roadmr_uds> zyga: yes, cgregan has slides
<zyga> I have one general comment but that's something that can happen after the session: I strongly believe that checkbox and lava should be one project, one strong libaray of tools that don't need to duplicate internals, but that's not the topic of this session
<zyga> s/libary/library/
<ppetraki> I'm still on the fence as to how much either project offers in addition to autotest
<roadmr_uds> zyga: exactly :) we'll mention that in a moment
<roadmr_uds> zyga, ppetraki : for the moment you can look at this, it's the basics of the architecture (though cgregan's slides are nicer)
<roadmr_uds> http://people.canonical.com/~cr3/checkbox-core/submit.html
<ppetraki> as an integrator, you'll want to be able to leverage existing "batteries included" frameworks like autotest and  LTP, and then focus on my custom product.
<zyga> cr3: lava has the same problem
<roadmr_uds> zyga: grown too complex and people don't find it easy to contribute?
<zyga> roadmr_uds, no, actually, started too specific and hard for non-linaro to consume
<zyga> roadmr_uds, it's getting community (yay) slowly
<zyga> roadmr_uds, but I always felt that we should put equal effort on random developers using it and being interested and special custom cases needed for linaro
<zyga> even if that costs us tons of time (like 50%)
<zyga> and non arm support (as we currently just start to get x86 support via community contributions)
<zyga> roadmr_uds, we started a process to simplify a few things in lava for both users and potential contributors alike
<ppetraki> I wish QA folks would blog their tricky feats more, its a bit of an art to harness something and not create massive amounts of new code, that's just as complicated as the software you're trying to test.
<zyga> yeah, blogging is usef, but then again, when you have a really cool and useful product others do that for you
<zyga> we're just not there yet
<zyga> it's not like I need to read blog posts about github to know it's useful or how to use it
<zyga> to the speaker: lava had similar concerns
<zyga> for test developers
<zyga> and integrators
<zyga> that were running tests on their machine
<zyga> and did not want to hang the kernel on purpose
<zyga> like powe management tests
<zyga> so we were considering adding a flag that would mark a test as unsafe
<zyga> (in the test meta data)
<ppetraki> fwts has a sane test case organization
<zyga> so running on my workstation, I would not easily just run certain tests while exploring
<zyga> what is fwts?
<ppetraki> ACPI focused test suite
<zyga> (lava considers tests a free market, there is no taxonomy there, test is just a brand, you install it by name and then you can run it)
<spineau> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Kernel/Reference/fwts
<ppetraki> might be a nice use case for cb-core to harness fwts
<roadmr_uds> ppetraki: checkbox already uses fwts for some tests
 * zyga is here ;-)
<zyga> (the dispatcher is now slowly being integrated in the lava-core)
<zyga> but essentially yes, it's one thing that sits next to your devices
<zyga> maas is interesting, I feel that lava could benefit form that as we essentially need to do maas for arm dev boards today
<zyga> (sadly arm dev kits are not server grade hardware that was designed for this)
<zyga> cr3: do you have anything that looks at the overall tests plan before it even allocates the hardware, to check if it makes sense?
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<zyga> especially if you have many-machine tests (I'm not sure as I got confused by the discussion)
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<spineau> Fork-exec cr3
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<zyga> cr3: do you have a time to chat today?
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<ppetraki> thanks guys
<roadmr_uds> zyga: I'll tell him so he can try to find you (cr3, that is) heh
<roadmr_uds> bye folks!
<zyga> roadmr_uds, thanks
<spineau> bye
<zyga> I can hear you :
<zyga> it's not late, I just changed the timezone and I pretend it's early
<zyga> :)
<zyga> ok
<zyga> sure, I just want a quick chat
<zyga> but it can be anytime
<zyga> just prefer early in the week
<zyga> as it can spawn more discussion later
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<zyga> 6 7 8 9 10...
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#ubuntu-uds-grand-ballroom-c 2012-05-08
* ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-uds-grand-ballroom-c to: Track: Foundations | Improvements to the ISO tracker and some build related scripts | Url: http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-q/meeting/20234/foundations-q-iso-tracker/ | Audio: http://icecast.ubuntu.com:8000/grand-ballroom-c.ogg.m3u
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<tremolux> kiwinote!  \o/
<tremolux> :D
<kiwinote> hey tremolux!
<mpt> Good morning folks
<oSoMoN> good morning
<mpt> and especially kiwinote and tremolux :-)
<kiwinote> morning everyone!
<tremolux> hello mpt!
<tremolux> hey oSoMoN!  :D
<oSoMoN> hey tremolux!
<tremolux> oSoMoN: are you at UDS or remote today?
<oSoMoN> tremolux: at UDS
<seb24_> Hello
<stokachu> HaI
<tremolux> hey mvo! I can hear you very well
<zematynnad> can hear you fine
<mpt> hello
<mpt> There are many improvements to the purchase process
<mpt> I'd like to demote the "All Software" and "Installed" toolbar dropdowns to a top-level "Go" menu
<mpt> and change (most of) search results from the current list views to tile views
<mpt> Those are the only major design changes, I think
<mpt> and I'd quite understand if none of them got done
<mpt> yes, it would need pagination
<mpt> hm, I hadn't thought about that
<mpt> currently the tile is a large click target for going to the item screen
<mpt> having a small click target inside that would be ... interesting
<mpt> Sorry dpitkin, the audio stream is breaking up
<mpt> The #1 way to reduce clicks+keypresses for purchases, at least, would be remembering payment details, but that's a topic for the server session
<mpt> So, either a split view, or a way of having multiple windows open at once
<mpt> "Edit" > "Copy Web Location"
<mpt> It's been in USC since version 1.0
<tremolux> ^^^  :)
<mpt> It doesn't take you to the Web directory because the Web directory is on the wrong domain
<mpt> but we can fix that and set up redirects
<mpt> like Amazon Listmania
<mpt> http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/help/customer/display.html?nodeId=897828
<mpt> ---
<mpt> Lists of multiple items: If you enter a comma-separated list of packages, USC does provide an "Install All" button. That needs abstracting to apt: and then to apt.ubuntu.com
<mpt> Hi Ethan
<mpt> ---
<mpt> Donations: For open-source software, the trademark holder would be more important than the copyright holder
<mpt> "Donate" is different from "Buy" in that you could donate before, during, after, or without installing
<mpt> e.g. "Program X won't be useful to me until it has feature Y, but I'll donate to the developers to encourage them to implement it"
<mpt> Kickstarter-like, I guess so
<mpt> ---
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<mpt> Async data provider: Is that what is necessary for Update Manager to show the same application names+icons as USC does? Or is it more than that?
<mpt> ok
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<mpt> Thanks all
<tremolux> thanks everybody
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<zematynnad> have a good one everyone
 * tremolux wants a UDS cookie
<zematynnad> +1
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<s-fox> Hey, can someone turn up the mic please?
<bobweaver> +1 s-fox
<bobweaver>  \o knows make
<bobweaver> what about things like different desktop aka gnome trow back ect  ?
<bobweaver> QUESTION: is there any way that we can ask questions about the community section of the slideshow ?
<bobweaver> about the ubuntu forums
<bobweaver> we would like to make a javascript one that shows all
<bobweaver> thanks !
<bobweaver> If I work on somethings I will push branch too launchpad :) thanks again
<bobweaver> I can say 100% that I would not be here if it was not for the forums a lot people say the same thing :)
<s-fox> The forum has 1.6 million members. I want to give the best possible chance of users getting help.
<bobweaver> seems like with the SSO stuff coming it is all tied togeather thansk again for hearing me out :)
<bobweaver> make TODO to trim up README
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<bobweaver> Yes
<bobweaver> jono and others are working on that for ubuntu -accompesments at least I hear that
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<s-fox> we've been trying to get inclusion with the firefox bookmarks too :)
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<bobweaver> screen shot sounds GREAT !
<bobweaver> anything sounds better then it is now
<bobweaver> as there is nothing pointing to the forums
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<bobweaver> Please let me know if there is anything that I can help with
<bobweaver> my LP is josephjamesmills
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<bobweaver> thanks again all smiles here
<bobweaver> great to know that you are willing to work with every thing
<bobweaver> Is there anything that we can tell FC members too do ?
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<s-fox> forum council members
<s-fox> ?
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<bobweaver> s-fox,  yeah that is what I was talking about
<bobweaver> s-fox,  ubuntu-forums
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<erichammond> audio cuts off when the session ends, huh.
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<erichammond> hi!
<erichammond> I'm trying to learn what this juju/charm thing is and if I need to start using and pushing it.
<erichammond> I'll be flying up to UDS tonight and will attend Wed,Thu,Fri.
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<josephmills> Once again thanks for answering my questions off to other meeting  Have a good one :)
<josephmills> woops wrong channel
<bobweaver> Yup
<bobweaver> sound is good :)
<bobweaver> Question: Is there a list off apps that Ubuntu is looking for ?
<bobweaver>  debian/control file
<bobweaver> there are converters
<bilal> http://xkcd.com/927/
<komputes> bilal: one of my favorite ones
<bilal> yeah, and highly relevant in this case
<james__> https://plus.google.com/109922199462633401279/posts/HgdeFDfRzNe
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#ubuntu-uds-grand-ballroom-c 2012-05-09
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<SpamapS> o/
<SpamapS> Ubuflu has him now
<SpamapS> I'm always there
<SpamapS> watching
<SpamapS> waiting
<SpamapS> *
<SpamapS> Cool, good idea utlemming. Session done.
<SpamapS> main cannot depend on multiverse
<SpamapS> I already charmed ELB btw.. would have been slightly easier w/ apt-get instead of download, unzip, bleh
<smoser> good morning
<SpamapS> heh, openstack doesn't have any of this. :)
<SpamapS> I agree w/ smoser. We do what we can, when we can, and are open to prioritization arguments.
<SpamapS> we do not need to know who is going to do it, to agree that it is a good idea. We can make a plea for help from the community and/or suggest that Canonical devote resources to it *after* determining how big the effort is.
 * charlieS concurs that the top of the list in etherpad (ami tools, ELB, RDS, IAM) are super important
<SpamapS> Have we checked Debian WNPP to see if there are requests or ITP's for any of these?
 * SpamapS is looking for sponsorees!
<SpamapS> python-boto is up to date in debian isn't it?
<SpamapS> python-boto in debian is 2.3.0
<charlieS> 1.9 in lucid :)
<smoser> so for python-boto, i will re-sync that.
<SpamapS> python-boto | 2.2.2-0ubuntu2 |       precise | source, all
<smoser> yeah.
<SpamapS> target precise-backports too
<SpamapS> recipes make it really easy to have all releases covered
<SpamapS> Daviey can ping me to sponsor in uploads. :)
<SpamapS> #ubuntu-meeting , every Tuesday 0900 PDT
<SpamapS> much awesomeness, thanks everybody
<SpamapS> instead of sed, just drop a file in sourcs.list.d
<SpamapS>  _________________________
<SpamapS> < sources.list.d, smoser! >
<SpamapS>  -------------------------
<SpamapS>         \   ^__^
<SpamapS>          \  (oo)\_______
<SpamapS>             (__)\       )\/\
<SpamapS>                 ||----w |
<SpamapS>                 ||     ||
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<SpamapS> its best if you know your mirror
<SpamapS> but.. meh
<SpamapS> please god don't put it in python-software-properties
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<SpamapS> That is the best hidden command ever
<SpamapS> "how do I get this useful command?" "Oh, by installing an obscure python module"
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<SpamapS> later!
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<d0od> Hear Ya
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<dannf> mrjazzcat is heading down
<dannf> and susceptible to intermittent failures
<dannf> you don't want a bmc busy handling network packets being too busy to respond to the booting system
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<dholbach> http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-q/meeting/20560/community-q-myapps-review/
<dholbach> ajmitch is talking about https://myapps.developer.ubuntu.com/dev/arb/
<dmj726> It would be nice if "commercial" apps could get the canonical packaged source package back to save canonical effort for updates
<dmj726> uds-gb-c: ^^
<dmj726> bilal: are you in the room?
<bilal> dmj726: nope, I'm in grand ballroom H
<dmj726> okay, thanks
<dmj726> It would be nice to streamline the packaging process
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<shirgall> Was it a good picture?
<Faqtotum> no
<shirgall> ODMs wanting substitution of new hardware for old hardware is common
<shirgall> total loss of cmos/bios settings
<shirgall> BOM -> Bill of Materials for those who think we are planning something else
<Faqtotum> tar -> tarball, bom -> bomshell
<shirgall> I was having trouble determining if that was wellness versus weirdness
<shirgall> well, if the date is less than the release date of the current distro, set it :)
<Faqtotum> if today is before today, then it's not today
<shirgall> Faqtotum: well, on first boot there's not necessarily a network to figure out what the real "today" is
<shirgall> Faqtotum: and trusting the rtc is... risky
<Faqtotum> not what i meant
<Faqtotum> you mentioned the release date, but if you install a prerelease, the release date is "today"
<shirgall> Faqtotum: well, it's no less than six motnhs before today :)
<shirgall> Faqtotum: on OEM installs, though, we tend not to use pre-release stuff on items shipping from factories
<Faqtotum> by the time it ships, it will be a previous version
<shirgall> Faqtotum: point is to avoid "1970"
<Faqtotum> x86 bioses generally never supported 1970
<shirgall> Faqtotum: x86 is not the only target
<Faqtotum> no, but it's the oldest one
<shirgall> Faqtotum: but on systems with no rtc, or a dead rtc battery, it comes up as "0" and that is Jan 1, 1970
<Faqtotum> SoC's sometimes detect that and set it to more recent nonsense
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#ubuntu-uds-grand-ballroom-c 2012-05-10
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<ppetraki> SCSI Architecture has an abstract RPC format, but I'm biased :)
<jamesf> is autotest achieving the same thing?  Is this reinventing?  Should it be reusing autotest?
<ppetraki> probably has
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#ubuntu-uds-grand-ballroom-c 2012-05-11
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<dmj726> hi all
<dmj726> Hi, bilal
<bilal> hi dmj726
<vibhav> A good way to advertise might be to show the Application's Integration with Unity, if any
<dmj726> I think it's important to get the word out outside of the software center.
<vibhav> something like "Share for $SOCIAL_NETWORK"
<vibhav> gwibber might be of some use for that
<dmj726> yes, perhaps also find ways to expand coverage of new Ubuntu apps in news sites
<vibhav> Also, Integration with Google+ and twitter hashtags sounds good
<dmj726> What about promoting a commercial app that is also libre?
<dmj726> Is the banner only chosen by internal processes or could developers nominate an app?
<vibhav> No Idea
<bilal> dmj726: I'm going to speak that here
<bilal> one sec
<vibhav> What about an option to "Request an application in the Software Center"?
<mpt> dmj726, Canonical's Consumer Applications team currently chooses the promoted applications
<dmj726> thanks mpt
<vibhav> Cant that process also involve the community as well?
<mpt> Sometimes (as in the case of the EA applications) it can't be discussed in advance because the applications haven't been announced)
<dmj726> I've been quite curious about this since submitting https://myapps.developer.ubuntu.com/dev/apps/699/
<mpt> (Sorry I can't listen in on this session, I'm in another one right now)
<dmj726> It would be good to have older apps get some love too
<vibhav> dmj726: +1
<dmj726> A big issue on the Apple app store is that older apps get lost in the crowd
<dmj726> We want apps to stick around long term
<dmj726> Perhaps some monthly awards for apps
<dmj726> to get them exposure
<dmj726> could also be a news item to report on sites
<dmj726> We want to encourage sites outside of the couple Ubuntu sites to start coving apps on Ubuntu to make them more viable and increase developer awareness too.
<vibhav> What about adding "Report a Bug in the application" Directly in the Software Center?
<mpt> That's not what USC is for, but in the Gnome session I raised the possibility of a Contribution indicator menu
<mpt> which would (amongst other things) let you report a bug on anything you see, xkill-style
<vibhav> ah
<vibhav> What about, reuqest an app. to be added to the USC?
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<dmj726> Perhaps a way for developers to gift promotional copies of commercial software?
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<vibhav> Thats looks good
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<vibhav> But we want to bring FOSS to the world :)
<dmj726> vibhav: I wrote a paid app that is FOSS
<dmj726> with the paid part supporting future efforts
<vibhav> ah
<dmj726> https://myapps.developer.ubuntu.com/dev/apps/699/
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<vibhav> dmj726: Cant access app
<vibhav> Only the owner of an application can do that.
<dmj726> (bug in the site labels it as proprietary despite the cc-by-sa license)
<dmj726> vibhav: sorry, wrong link
<dmj726> https://apps.ubuntu.com/cat/applications/zhackers-volume1-usc/
<dmj726> vibhav: this ^^
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<vibhav> GOod Night
<dmj726> actually pretty stoked that it's the highest rated USC book
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<ppetraki> the systemtap bug ddeb metadata bug?
<ppetraki> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/systemtap/+bug/669641
<udsbotu> Launchpad bug 669641 in linux (Ubuntu) "systemtap fails to discover installed debug modules" [Undecided,Triaged]
<ppetraki> it's a packaging problem on our side, this just works on debian, as shown in  http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=555549
<udsbotu> Debian bug 555549 in src:linux-2.6 "adding .gnu_debuglink section in kernel modules" [Normal,Fixed]
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