#ubuntu-artwork 2005-12-19
<artnay> g morning
<klepas> moin
<artnay> have you guys tried pixel?
<klepas> pixel?
<artnay> http://www.kanzelsberger.com/pixel/?page_id=12 - not GPL though
<klepas> ah,seen it
<klepas> i'm happy with gimp
<artnay> hey, the wiki thingie... are we getting anywhere?
<artnay> has any of you contacted kubuntu/edubuntu/xubuntu artworkers?
<artnay> we really should get it going
<artnay> klepas: oh, you posted a link.
<artnay> oh, now I found it again! http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=64390
<artnay> I saw that thread before breezy was released but then I sort of lost it. I though it was posted on ubuntu art talk and I wasn't able to find it anymore...
<klepas> bbl
<artnay> I really like the overall design of it although the buttons could be improved
<artnay> what do you think of it?
<klepas> i like it a lot
<klepas> ought to come as fault with dapper
<artnay> tweak it a bit and make it default :)
<klepas> anyone awake?
<artnay> hey
<artnay> has any of you been in contact with k*, ed* or x* artworkers?
<artnay> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ArtTeam lacks functionality. we should be able to see who is involved in what
<artnay> ok, we need to split /ArtTeam
<artnay> we should move lots of stuff from there to e.g. FAQ
<artnay> no, Introduction would be better
<artnay> done, now the introduction and contact details have been separated: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ArtworkTodoProposal
<artnay> what next?
<artnay> how about adding something like "Ubuntu Metacity" or similiar after a name at contact page?
<artnay> just by telling how you'd like to help could help us organizing here
<artnay> guys? :D
<artnay> ok, should we just c&p the licensing section to a separate page from /EdubuntuArtwork
<artnay> I've been asking about the branding guide that canonical was supposed to provide but I haven't received any replies
<artnay> so I guess CC SA 2.5 is ok
<artnay> I contacted xi0nblue and invited him here
<lukacu> hello artnay :)
<artnay> hi lukacu 
<lukacu> whats up?
<artnay> nothing special, been busy the last few three or four days
<artnay> you?
<lukacu> also busy :) ... school and that
<artnay> 47 windows open in irssi, too much... :D
<lukacu> lol
<lukacu> anything new with the wiki?
<artnay> I just updated it
<lukacu> yeah ... ive noticed a major change :)
<artnay> now we just need an IRC meeting so we can build the structure of /*buntuArtwork pages
<lukacu> optimist ;)
<artnay> that's the top priority. after that we can place our stuff into right categories and start doing some serious job
<artnay> it's 08:19 in sidney already, where's klepas? :)
<artnay> s/typos/moretypos/g
<artnay> lukacu: do you have any ideas how /*buntuArtwork pages should be built?
<lukacu> well ... i do not have a clear picture but only some ideas
<lukacu> i will try to gather them, build a txt file and publish it somewhere
<artnay> great
<lukacu> i think that the idea about writing your interests next to your name on the artteam page is very good
<artnay> it would help in this situation. would be easier to get into contact with kubu, edu and xubu ppl
<lukacu> indeed
<artnay> it doesn't mean you're locked into a project once you write it down there :)
<artnay> are you guys members of ubuntuforums?
<lukacu> a am a zero-post member :)
<lukacu> a registered lurker ;)
<artnay> hehe :)
<artnay> oh, nice.
<artnay> I was just testing some new komposite tweaks as X.org crashed. I disabled composite extension and logged in, started firefox and it opened all the tabs (sessionsaver) and it even remember the long text I was writing to forums when X crashed :o
<artnay> if only I had similiar session management on my windows PC (at work)
<lukacu> well thats reliable ... sessionsaver is a part of ... firefox?
<artnay> lukacu: yes, but remembering form information was new to me. well, I haven't been able to make X crash without composite
<artnay> ok, I'll watch an episode of Lost if you stay silent :)
<lukacu> lol
<lukacu> i just havent configured xchat to remind me when somebody types something
<lukacu> well ... i guess you are already watching lost 
<lukacu> but if you know how to configure xchat to perform some kind of visual notification please let me know
#ubuntu-artwork 2005-12-20
<lukacu> good night
<klepas> anyone awake?
<klepas> hi
<artnay> klepas: hey
<artnay> http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event - artwork team needs to have meeting this year x)
<artnay> any suggestions for a date?
<artnay> 24th, err.
<Tm_T> :o
<Tm_T> erh, I just realised that I didn't have cursor themes installed
<artnay> did you find a decent one?
<Tm_T> yu
<Tm_T> one from klo and another is basic whiteglass
<Tm_T> ok, time to reboot with updates ->
<artnay> hey guys, do you have any suggestions for meetings?
<artnay> how about at least one gathering once a month?
<Tm_T> sounds good to me
<artnay> what about time? people involved in this seem to be from all over world
<artnay> so what time would be suitable?
<artnay> damn, no KDE lock available at the moment :(
<artnay> how about the dates? should we pick up a date? it's better way than "every first wednesday of the month"
<lukacu> hello artnay, i think the weekend is the best choice
<artnay> let's gather something up and then post a proposal to list
<artnay> lukacu: maybe true. then if some important people are always unable to attend on saturday... I don't know
<artnay> I've been browsing the mailing list and the posts considering a meeting
<artnay> you do the same :)
<lukacu> ok
<artnay> http://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-art/2005-July/000046.html
<artnay> lukacu: I see you replied there
<lukacu> yes, but that was june ... i think the situation is a bit different now
<artnay> I was just going to ask ;)
<artnay> so any GMT suggestions after reading all those threads?
<lukacu> i wanted to attend that first meeting but the time was realy unfriandly for europe-dwelling folks
<artnay> yep, but volvoguy lives in states and andyfitz in australia. this is problematic ;)
<lukacu> yes i know ... but there are lot of active members of the art team in europe and they should not be ignored :)
<artnay> true, therefore we need the contact page to be updated
<artnay> so we could see from where the majority is coming from
<artnay> blah, don't mind the typos
<lukacu> i dont mind them ... i do a lot of them myself ;)
<artnay> still we understand each other, that's the most important thing
<lukacu> :)
<lukacu> http://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-art/2005-July/000109.html
<lukacu> there is a chance that volvoguy and andyfitz change mornings and evenings ...
<lukacu> dont know if that is still possible though
<artnay> meeting has been added to to-do list
<artnay> that should be covered in wiki
<artnay> I guess I mail volvoguy once again
<artnay> and invite him here
<lukacu> yes ... he is a bit inactive ... problems with health i assume. hope he is ok
<artnay> he's recovering
<artnay> most definitely
<lukacu> thats good
<lukacu> but for the future i think that we need to distribute the roles a bit more ... 
<artnay> we should clearify the roles in the first place
<lukacu> eg. a substitute coordinator ...
<artnay> that way people would know who to contact in certain matters etc.
<lukacu> yes
<artnay> contact page is one option, it states there that it would be nice if you could add what you'd like to do :)
<artnay> speaking of the bad grammar... ;)
<lukacu> :)
<artnay> when the roles are clear, we can do some sort of schedule
<artnay> before that we're just wasting time by not being organized
<artnay> a schedule for meetings and goals for dapper...
<lukacu> the problem is that there is a bunch of people on this channel and most of them are not talking
<artnay> hi there, Riddell.
<Riddell> hola
<Riddell> hmm, irssi window 56
<artnay> 47 :(
<Riddell> a main artwork wiki page seems sensible
<artnay> anyways, the structure of wiki. what do you think of it? by unifying the pages between different projects, the end-user could find information more easily
<artnay> we've been trying to find artwork people behind Kubuntu and Xubuntu
<artnay> is there any idea to add something like (Kubuntu KWin) after your name at /ArtTeam?
<artnay> that way we would know who's working on what
<artnay> as there's no separate project pages yet (that would include participants, dependencies between projects, current issues etc.)
<Riddell> there's no paticular kubuntu artwork person, I just poke whoever is around until they make something cool
<lukacu> artnay: i will add my interests next to my name now...
<artnay> hehe. maybe if we could organize a bit, make it easy to find the needed information from wiki, people might contribute more than they are now doing
<artnay> Riddell: are you interested to brand Kubuntu's KDE? (what a silly question, right?)
<artnay> I should stfu, I can't type today
<artnay> if we could minimize the need to browse several different sites and FAQs, compilation of decos etc. by providing pre-made themes as .debs, that would make it easy to change the feeling that DE gives
<Riddell> artnay: KDE is a strong part of the kubuntu brand so I try to keep it both close to KDE and give it it's own Kubuntu identity
<artnay> lots of people seem to dislike Kubuntu just because "it's blue" and they don't have the needed knowledge to change what they want easily
<Riddell> what's wrong with blue!
<artnay> Riddell: :D
<artnay> just provide an easy way to change the feeling of DE. some do like GNOME being blue, some KDE being brown. I'm not saying that defaults should be changed, but just to give an option
<Riddell> yep
<artnay> but what we're lacking here? the structure. we wanted to have more opinions, only like four or five people have been thinking about it (or at least only they have been commenting)
<artnay> and since there's no replies on the mailing list, we decided to invite people here to discuss
<lukacu> artnay: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ArtTeam ... your turn now ;)
<artnay> added myself
<lukacu> perhaps now more will follow our lead ...
<artnay> hopefully
<artnay> Riddell: and hey, I haven't said "thanks" for KDE yet ;)
<Riddell> you're welcome :)
<Tm_T> hmm, I think I found some "bug" in cursor theme
<artnay> Tm_T: not the official one, right?
<Tm_T> artnay: "whiteglass" theme
<Tm_T> it's not full or half of cursors doesn't work
<Tm_T> dunno which  one
<artnay> how come I'm not able to find it? just found the homepage for darkglass :/
<Tm_T> I can't find it either using google
<artnay> apt-file search whiteglass ;>
<Tm_T> aye
<Tm_T> it's in...
<artnay> xcursor-themes
<Tm_T> yes
<artnay> is it a bug in ubuntu package? oh yeah, you're using dapper... ;)
<artnay> anyways, someone should test it on breezy
<Tm_T> aye
<artnay> and if you're able to find bugs on artwork, please file 'em
<Tm_T> it was full theme in hoary
<Tm_T> never remembered to install it in breezy =)
<artnay> lukacu: how many artworkers have you spoken with? if you can get more people online, it would be appreciated. :)
<lukacu> artnay: recently none ... except you :)
<lukacu> but lets try spamming the ML :D
<artnay> lukacu: if you like to send an invitation, do it already. ;)
<artnay> or should we just mail people personally? (use the addresses that are available at /ArtTeam)
<lukacu> dont know ... i for one have listed my not-so-very-personal email there ;)
<artnay> me too, but I still do get a notification if mail drops there
<artnay> have you seen this one: http://art.ubuntu.com/backgrounds/ubuntu/85
<lukacu> yup ...uploaded it myself :)
<artnay> oh, I didn't know that (how obvious)
<lukacu> not very obvious ... not many people know that i am one of the auc admins, perhaps the only active admin right now
<lukacu> well ... not so very active but still
<artnay> klepas too
<artnay> what about art-web? it's unusable, right?
<lukacu> yes
<artnay> have you tried the cvs version?
<lukacu> i am not the server admin
<lukacu> cannot upload new system ... i think so
<artnay> well at least some of the bugs and usability issues have been written down: http://live.gnome.org/GnomeArt_2fToDo
<artnay> but would it be easier to get a new CMS?
<lukacu> we had this discussion before ... i am not very familiar with this kind of cms-es
<lukacu> and the system is already up and running
<artnay> art-web is suffering from design problems but CMS used in GNOME/KDE-look is an overkill
<lukacu> indeed
<artnay> something between both of them would be fine, I guess
<Tm_T> hum, restarting X, let's see if setting this cursor theme to X default will help any
<lukacu> we need imagemagick on the auc server ... then i can write some useful scripts myself
<Tm_T> ->
<artnay> lukacu: have you requested it?
<lukacu> no :) ... will do it now ... or later today perhaps
<artnay> well that could be a short-term solution
<lukacu> yes
<klepas> i
<klepas> oh, mean to say hi
<lukacu> hi klepas
<artnay> hey klepas 
<artnay> :o :o
* klepas finishes reading what transpired while i was away
<klepas> wish we could move AUC to a better CMS
<lukacu> write henrik about that then
<klepas> yea
<artnay> or maybe we could ask what are the top priorities in art-web development
<klepas> when the mail server is back u[ =\
<artnay> if you're not pleased, then change to better if possible
<klepas> yep
<klepas> my dad has suggested grabbing the CMS that GNOME/KDE look uses
<klepas> and installing it locally on our server
<klepas> and then adding some content
<klepas> and making some users
<klepas> opening a port
<artnay> test case
<klepas> yep
<klepas> and giving people an alternative
<klepas> because right now adding content to the art-web system is an absolute pain
<lukacu> yup ... agree on that :)
<klepas> lukacu: would you be interesed in testing GNOME/KDE-look's CMS?
<lukacu> if you set it up then yes
<klepas> lovely
<artnay> I bet that CMS is available from sourceforge
<klepas> might do so then
<klepas> probably
<lukacu> great
<artnay> omg
<artnay> 12:15  rcappuccio> I hope to finish the API before Christmas
<artnay> yay, hopefully kubuntu dapper will include kat be default :o
<artnay> s/be/by
<klepas> kat takes up a huge amount of sys resources i am told
<klepas> and makes KDE a complete lagmonster
<artnay> it's being completely rewritten
<artnay> that's because of sqlite3
<artnay> last time I tried to compile it from svn, it didn't even make daemon... *g*
<artnay> anyways, while it worked, it was a beast
<artnay> I really hope to see it in future KDE versions and the integration with konqueror
<klepas> i hope if that is so i can turn it off
<artnay> the new API will have spaces etc. that can be used in amaroK etc.
<klepas> and uninstall it
<artnay> haha, no way :) once you get used to a powerful metaindexer, you're not switching x)
<artnay> speaking of myself there
<klepas> lol
<klepas> nah
<klepas> if they stick in kat
<klepas> and don't allow you to disable it/remove it
<artnay> well it's being planned to be a part of tenor
<klepas> i'm switching to KDE
<artnay> it's KDE, of course you're able to switch it off
<klepas> /KDE/GNOME
<klepas> of course that is if kat sucks
<artnay> well this guy is developing it all by himself
<artnay> so extra help wouldn't hurt
<klepas> hehe
<klepas> if i were to try and help i screw everyone up
<artnay> "me too"
<artnay> klepas: did you look at the wiki?
<artnay> it's been separated a bit
<klepas> which page(s)?>
<artnay> umh, contact has been renewed. introduction should be renewed any time soon
<artnay> too much information in it, we should finally move the current /UbuntuArtwork to /UbuntuArtworkResources or something like that
<klepas> yup
<artnay> and then build /UbuntuArtwork from scratch and do some linking
<artnay> the first thing would be the building of /Artwork though
<klepas> yes, definitely
<klepas> talking with jdub now
<artnay> about what, may I ask?
<klepas> in #slug (sydney linux user group)
<klepas> his support for an art team meeting
<klepas> and him posting it for us on the Fridge
<artnay> that's cool. we must be sure that volvoguy is present then
<artnay> also it would be nice to see AndyFitz and bvc as well
<klepas> yes
<klepas> i'm sure they'll come
<artnay> which date and GMT time?
<klepas> GMT
<klepas> date..
<klepas> either this weekend
<artnay> naaah, whatever. just post it ;D
<klepas> or sometime next week
<klepas> ASAP though!
<artnay> true, true.
<klepas> MOTU meeting in 7 hours
<artnay> oh, btw. http://www.simplifiedcomplexity.com/images/screenshots/dapper/gfxboot-big.png
<artnay> usplash got some love, now bigger resolutions are possible (afaik)
<artnay> although the splash image has to be 640x400
<klepas> nice
<klepas> but... rip-off from Suse
<klepas> so much of a rip-off
<klepas> :P
<artnay> :>
<artnay> I'm not commenting
<klepas> lol
<klepas> it so is
<klepas> Suse had that with suse 10.0
<artnay> it's an ugly kernel hack :p
<klepas> anyone who sees it will be like "Suse had that first!"
<artnay> anyways, we should get those xubuntu artworkers here
<artnay> well I'll go buy candies and ciggies, brb
<lukacu> i will also leave now ... ill be back later
<klepas> don't know about myself
<artnay> mmm
<klepas> might watch something and go to sleep
<klepas> i can't access my mail atm
<klepas> so i can't send out anything
<klepas> =\
<klepas> might try again tomorrow
<artnay> ok
<artnay> well
<artnay> I might do something to wiki later today
<artnay> something minor, I can't do big changes before we have a discussion
<klepas> yea
<klepas> which is why we have to do it soon
* mhz is waking up
* klepas is going to sleep
<artnay> what's going on, mauricio? what time is it there? 6:30 am?
<mhz> see? we have a little time problme :)
<artnay> later klepas 
<mhz> 09:30
<artnay> oh :)
<mhz> see you klepas 
<klepas> 23:32
<artnay> 14:32
<mhz> artnay: i fell asleep on the couch
<klepas> i'll dooze in and out of the channel
<klepas> just expect me when you least expect me :)
<mhz> hehehe
<mhz> just when we mention your name :)
<klepas> lol
<artnay> mhz: there has been a lot of discussion in here
<klepas> perhaps
<klepas> mhz: check the logs
<artnay> #ubuntu-artwork has been flooded today ;)
* mhz still reading
<mhz> so it seems
<mhz> klepas: artnay: so far, my thoughts are: if only 2 people do the lead.. 2 they are. In other words, many will follow the lead in the end
<mhz> and 'meritocracy' will come up
<artnay> but we need critique in order to get wiki constructed properly
<artnay> and more ideas
<mhz> I am commited on so many ubuntu/edubuntu things that I hardly find time to be more active on the things I have less skills (artwork and  accessibility teams)
<artnay> :(
<mhz> artnay: indeed, I really agree on that
<mhz> opinions are very important
<mhz> and needed
<mhz> but, on the other hand... if the most active people dont get collaboration (in perfect timing) as expected, then we can only do what we can with the resources he have
<artnay> well we've been waiting something to happen
<artnay> proposal is on the list, people have been invited to discuss with each other
<artnay> maybe we should post an open letter to ubuntuforums' art talk section... :o
<mhz> For instance, I would love to do things such wallpapers, icons, themes, etc. but AFAIK, the time I spend on learning how to work with graphics  apps. is equivalent to the time I could spend on contributing :(
<mhz> I guess that people like you are meant to lead and do the kick off
<mhz> if you know about the needs or have a clear thought of what should be done (priorities), then I will obviously follow the lead (as I think I have so far, being so passive)
<artnay> well all of us have opinions, but I just happened to be the one that wrote some of them down and gave it to public in order to create discussion
<mhz> on other teams (like EdubuntuChile, and EdubuntuChileanTour, I am the active one because I ah ve been more into it and my skills are already there, no need to learn from scratch :) )
<mhz> artnay: true
<artnay> and that was because I didn't see anything to happen for a few months
<artnay> that's too long timespan when cycle is 6 months
<mhz> please do not feel down, in the edubuntu list, I have sent opinions, reuqests etc, and sometimes, I still get no answers :(
<mhz> artnay: yes, you are absolutely right
<artnay> well I'm happy to see there's more people who think the same: something should be done asap
<mhz> that is why meritocracy is the key
<mhz> artnay: what do you do for living?
<artnay> mhz: I work for an ISP
<mhz> and why are you interested in artwork?
<artnay> well that's what I did before this job, I was a webdev
<artnay> and the main reason is that I don't find Ubuntu's GUI to be as good as it could be and I wanted just to give my opinion on it (like anybody cares actually)
<artnay> and then I got into this mess :)
<artnay> better keep it shut than yell it loudly
<mhz> hehehe
<artnay> if I just could follow that hint *g*
<mhz> artnay: so when you detect a need, and think of a solutions, that mental processing rate is muh faster than mine, because you've been there.
<mhz> Me, on the contrary, I am a translator and interepreter who has worked as a teacher and IT support guy.
<artnay> and how old were you? 30?
<mhz> so my 'been there' skills are more related to translating and detecting needs to pass them along to someone else to actually work on solutions (developers and designers)
* mhz gotta prepare brakefast to family now
<mhz> artnay: 30, indeed
<artnay> I just feel I should give something back. Ubuntu works ok, I want to help if I just can
<mhz> then "show some code", I know you already have the skills.
<mhz> whatever contribution you can make, it is mstry appreciated by the ones who dont know how to contribute
* mhz BBS
<artnay> yes, I get you. Trying to find all possible information related to Ubuntu artwork wasn't so easy. now we're trying to get it into one place so everyone can find and access it easily
<artnay> anyways, a meeting here would be a nice christmas present for artwork team. get the goals and priorities straight
<artnay> but hey, I'm done here at work. later guys!
<mhz> Danten: bach_skol, mgalvin: artnay and klepas are suggesting/organizing the ArtWork meeting. Will you participate in it? 
<mhz> IIRC it's set for sunday
<mgalvin> i don't know how much I can contribute but I will help out in some areas if I can (or have time to)
<mhz> mgalvin: thanks
<mgalvin> np
<mhz> re
#ubuntu-artwork 2005-12-21
<lukacu> good night
<artnay> g morning
<artnay> have you tried flight 2?
<artnay> General user interface improvements so far include the usual cleanup and refinement done by the GNOME developers and the latest version of the cairo-based Clearlooks engine which continues to improve giving Ubuntu an even cleaner and smoother look-and-feel.
<artnay> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DapperFlight2
<klepas> moin
<artnay> hey
<artnay> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DapperFlight2
<artnay> in case you guys haven't seen it yet
<klepas> i've just got access to mail again
<klepas> so i'm going to spend the next hour before the doc meeting scheduled soon reading my 800 emails =\
<klepas> but i's on my list
<klepas> thx :)
<klepas> artnay: meeting
#ubuntu-artwork 2005-12-24
<artnay> hey
<lukacu> hello
<artnay> so could we have a meeting on the 29th of Dec?
<artnay> last time I spoke with klepas, we didn't make any decisisions
<lukacu> what time?
<artnay> that was the biggest issue
<artnay> GMT what?
<lukacu> well, 0900 to 2400 would be fine
<artnay> btw, volvoguy replied. he said he's recovering but not in a great shape yet. he also stated that he would most likely to participate to meeting
<lukacu> thats great
<artnay> I don't care about the time. if it's once in a month, I guess I'm able to find some time for that
<lukacu> well sure ... thats just my preference
<artnay> I understood ;). I was just thinking these guys from australia and the usa
<artnay> like most of the people here on irc are from europe afaik
<artnay> that applies to other teams as well, I guess they go with "the european schedule"
<artnay> 16 PM GMT?
<artnay> that's just a suggestion! ;)
<lukacu> fine with me
<lukacu> though i am not 100% sure ... thats a bit too far ahead ;)
<artnay> ok, let's wait for klepas
<artnay> and comments from other ppl
<lukacu> ok
<artnay> http://gnome-look.org/content/show.php?content=32659
<artnay> a brown version of that would be nice for GNOME desks
<artnay> finally a decent reason to log into GNOME :>
<lukacu> lol... it looks nice
<artnay> why is tango project taking on blue?
<artnay> anyways, I wonder how that will look with Ubuntu Brown (tm)
<lukacu> ive tried to "compile" tango 0.6.1 but it just hanged because the script thinks that i do not have imagemagic intalled (but i do)
<lukacu> so that was my only attempt to check it out...
<lukacu> the ubuntu repository version is a bit outdated
<lukacu> i think...
<artnay> well I'm running dapper, the latest "stable" tango is packaged there
<artnay> it can be installed on breezy, just check http://packages.ubuntu.com
<artnay> I don't know about the naming spec, I don't use it. it should install just fine
<lukacu> i will try :)
<artnay> you probably have hicolor-icon-theme installed (isn't that installed by default?), so just "wget http://archive.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/pool/universe/t/tango-icon-theme/tango-icon-theme_0.6.2-0ubuntu1_all.deb && sudo dpkg -i http://archive.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/pool/universe/t/tango-icon-theme/tango-icon-theme_0.6.2-0ubuntu1_all.deb"
<artnay> umh, too much pasting :D
<artnay> you probably have hicolor-icon-theme installed (isn't that installed by default?), so just "wget http://archive.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/pool/universe/t/tango-icon-theme/tango-icon-theme_0.6.2-0ubuntu1_all.deb && sudo dpkg -i tango-icon-theme_0.6.2-0ubuntu1_all.deb"
<artnay> just in case you're being lazy :p
<lukacu> :D ... installed
<artnay> hi MotherLUG 
<MotherLUG> Hello artnay 
<MotherLUG> was looking for klepas
<artnay> he's missing at the moment
<artnay> 09:09 (*) klepa[s]  [n=klepas@203-213-31-142.static.tpgi.com.au]  has quit ["Lost terminal"] 
<MotherLUG> ahh ok thankyou
<artnay> hopefully he'll be back soon so we can get a few things sorted out
<artnay> and it's 14:16 in here
<MotherLUG> I will hopefully catch him soon too. I hope I haven't interupted. I will be on my way
<MotherLUG> Thanks for your help
<artnay> you're more than welcome
<artnay> we're lacking ppl in here (and not all of us are GNOME users)
<MotherLUG> Good Night
<artnay> bye
<MotherLUG> I wasn't sure if I could hang around
<artnay> why?
<artnay> well a better question would be "why not?"
<MotherLUG> I figured you are here to talk about ubuntu related things
<artnay> that is true, but it includes KDE, XFCE, IceWM, E17, *box, whatever
<artnay> Ubuntu != GNOME
<MotherLUG> Ubuntu = fabulous in my opinion. I can't wait to get my new machine up and running it again
<artnay> channels : #kde-artists
<artnay> I thought you thought we're talking only GNOME-centric stuff here
<MotherLUG> I had no idea what you were talking
<MotherLUG> :)
<MotherLUG> I found this channel in klepas' blog, I wanted to tell him how fabulous I think his work is
<artnay> hang around, he'll be back
<MotherLUG> I might have to shoot him an email. It's 23.32 here and my bed is calling
<MotherLUG> Once again Thanks for your help artnay Night
<MotherLUG> :D
#ubuntu-artwork 2005-12-25
<lukacu> good night
<artnay> oh, where's klepas :(
<lukacu> hello
<artnay_> hey
<lukacu> hey artnay :)
<artnay_> how are you?
<artnay_> haven't seen klepas around :(
<lukacu> im fine
<lukacu> did you try sending him an email?
<lukacu> btw: ive mailed henrik about imagemagick on AUC ... but no reply so far
<artnay_> no, I didn't mail him. is his email system ok at the moment?
<lukacu> well last time he talked about him having like 800 emails to read ;) ... i think that was him, let me check the logs
<lukacu> yup ... 16-12-2005
<lukacu> i hope he is done by now :)
<lukacu> well, good night
#ubuntu-artwork 2006-12-18
<nixternal> ls
<nixternal> derrr
<lapo> hi
<nysosym> Hi all :)
#ubuntu-artwork 2006-12-19
<Admiral_Chicago> hey i have a general question about making a kdm
* Admiral_Chicago waves to nixternal
<Admiral_Chicago> you know anything about that nix/
<Admiral_Chicago> btw, your page still won't load
<Admiral_Chicago> i'll try tomorrow
<vdepizzol> hello
<troy_s> hello
<troy_s> what brings you here vdepizzol ?
<vdepizzol> troy_s, how can I be an ubuntu-artworker? :)
<vdepizzol> troy_s, I'm actually a tango artist
<vdepizzol> troy_s, see my work http://vdepizzol.wordpress.com/
<vdepizzol> :)
<troy_s> we would _love_ to have you vde
<troy_s> but the issue of development lies at the top currently vdepizzol
<troy_s> sabdfl has chosen to have the fellow who 'designed' the dapper look design the feisty 'anchors' -- usplash, wallpaper, gdm, logon splash
<troy_s> and have the community build 'around' them once they land.
<troy_s> it is a closed process currently.
<vdepizzol> troy_s, ok
<vdepizzol> I'll keep helping projects like Ekiga, Gnumeric so :)
<troy_s> that said, there are several community based looks being developed
<troy_s> and they would probably dearly appreciate your participation
<andreasn> vdepizzol: dude, saw your gnumeric stuff, nice work
<Admiral_Chicago> yen it is very nice
<troy_s> link?
<vdepizzol> andreasn, thank you :) I saw your comment :P
<vdepizzol> troy_s, http://vdepizzol.wordpress.com/2006/12/16/gnumeric-artwork/
<andreasn> oh, I did a comment :))
<andreasn> I must be like one of a total of five users of gnumeric or something ;)
<andreasn> troy_s: build around in what way?
<Admiral_Chicago> good morning all
<newz2000> Have you guys had good luck opening inkscape svg files in illustrator? Do layers and things show up as expected?
<kwwii> the layers do not work as they did in inkscape
<kwwii> and illustrator cannot edit any gradients that go to transparency
<kwwii> nor can it edit lines with gradients
<newz2000> :-(
<newz2000> ok, thanks
<vdepizzol> there is any possibility to feisty come with beautiful icons in gaim?
<vdepizzol> http://img139.imageshack.us/img139/4732/capturadatelalistadeamilz6.png
<mhb> hi
<kwwii> hi mhb
<mhb> I have a kind of crazy question, but nobody answered on #kubuntu, I may try it here :o)
<mhb> it seems I feel kind of bored with the grey all around KDE/Kubuntu
<mhb> it's not everywhere, I know - I like the current Kicker skin and window decorations
<mhb> but when I open an application, there's a whole lot of grey
<mhb> grey buttons, grey menus, grey tabs, grey empty space
<mhb> I looked at some Vista dialog and it wasn't that grey (and I guess Mac OS X is not all grey as well)
<mhb> is there any way to make Kubuntu less grey? I don't want to change everything to a different colour ... just "polish" it up a bit
<kwwii> the new style will not be so grey
<kwwii> but the new action icons will be
<kwwii> which is very osx like
<mhb> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/f/ff/Opendialog5536.png <-- the screenshot I saw today
<kwwii> yeah, but I am not so big on the blue-green either
<kwwii> typically, kde is alway blue
<andreasn> the nice thing about grey is that is really neutral
<kwwii> and if the theme is made well with grey it can always be tweaked to be another color using a color-scheme
<andreasn> document canvas - white, text - black, the interface - grey
<mhb> andreasn: yes, but you see, I become quite bored with the grey all around
<andreasn> I assume there is a lot of color schemes on kde-look.org
<kwwii> and several in kde itself as well
<kwwii> although those could use some updating
<kwwii> mhb: perhaps you would be interested in updating/adding new color schemes?
<mhb> kwwii: could be
<kwwii> ;-)
<kwwii> see! I can always find work for someone :-)
<mhb> kwwii: is it possible to have a button with a different color than the disabled box/menu etc.?
<mhb> kwwii: or have gradients there?
<kwwii> the buttons in kde can have their own color, yes
<kwwii> kde4 will be much more flexable anyway
<kwwii> as we redid all the color scheme stuff (not sure how much is implemented so far though)
<kwwii> if you are interested in working on future kde stuff I suggest working on kde4 anyway
<kwwii> as we are not planning on changing a lot in regards to kde3 anymore
<mhb> thanks
#ubuntu-artwork 2006-12-20
<lapo> hi
#ubuntu-artwork 2006-12-21
<kwwii> night all
* mneptok belches
* BHSPitLappy recoils
<gouki> Hi. I'm looking for someone who is interested in helping me out (simple webdesign) with a statistics project for #ubuntu
<gouki> ubuntustats.homelinux.org (in case someone wants to check it out)
<mhb> hello art workers
<mhb> I wonder ... how's the Feisty artwork going to evolve after those small trouble with Edgy artwork cycle?
<bersace> mhb: artwork comunity team will continue their work
<bersace> on their respective themes
<bersace> however, default theme is still handle behind the curtain
<mhb> bersace: hmm ... I find it a wrong decision, but okay
<mhb> bersace: does "behind the curtain" mean "not show previews to the public?"
<bersace> mhb: i don't know
<bersace> there weren't even any spec for artwork
<bersace> macslow has nice idea about accelerated gdm login
<bersace> with face browser
<bersace> but nothing official
<mhb> bersace: I wish the way to go would be to open things up, not the other way around
<bersace> mhb: i wish so
<bersace> but obviously, that's not what sabdfl want
<bersace> i don't even know if frank schoep is still our artist in chief
<mhb> bersace: you should ask like me, then :o)
<bersace> :)
<mhb> maybe the right questions on the mailing list would stir a discussion
<bersace> ack
<mhb> because I know how much publicity the artwork had during the Edgy process
<mhb> and I don't understand why nobody discusses it or why( at least) someone in charge won't publish previews, etc
<mhb> but I'm not an artist who is able to help. If you are, you should ask those questions :o)
<bersace> i'm not too
<bersace> i was responsable of wiki reorganisation
<troy_s> greets bersace
<troy_s> frank scheop is not aic anymore.
<mhb> who is then,
<bersace> troy_s: hi
<mhb> hi Troy
<troy_s> Aside from growing pains, there were few problems along the Edgy route that weren't a direct result of sabdfl uninvolvement.
<mhb> Well, I am not a direct contributor to artwork but in my opinion the artwork team is somehow dissolving.
<troy_s> Not so much dissolving.
<troy_s> but realistically, we can do nothing while sabdfl decides on the Feisty direction.
<troy_s> Aside from continue to develop community based works.
<mhb> hmm
<mhb> from my experience I know that when a team stops being concentrated, it dissolves very quickly.
<mhb> you need a lot of organisation to put it back on track.
<troy_s> I wouldn't argue with you on that one.
<troy_s> We went from about 20 inactive artwork team members to almost 200 over the course of edgy
<troy_s> and had a good deal of interest / press / etc.
<mhb> troy_s: yes, I agree (I was monitoring the Edgy process).
<troy_s> c'est la vie.
<mhb> troy_s: but specifications should have been made on the beginning of the Feisty process, which sadly didn't happen.
<troy_s> that's because there was no interest on sabs part to do so
<troy_s> we could very well have grown from the last cycle and worked on them
<troy_s> but it became clear towards the end that
<troy_s> sabdfl had different ideas.
<mhb> so you/the team will have a very short time to finalize artwork.
<troy_s> so no one bothered to waste the time.
<troy_s> there will be no finalizing.
<troy_s> it will just appear.
<troy_s> and probably suffer from the same issues that previous incarnations have suffered from.
<bersace> i may write the wide theme switcher tool this summer as a SoC
<bersace> this will allow to smoothly switch from default theme to community theme
<bersace> if there is nice alternative
<bersace> for feisty+1, maybe
<troy_s> well the _really_ unfortunate thing
<troy_s> is that daniel automated all of the artwork aspects
<troy_s> (based on franks' effort as well)
<troy_s> the theme switcher is darn close to being internally useful
<troy_s> but it doesn't let you set all of the font options
<troy_s> as per the prefs box (but simple, -- just a gconf adjustment from what i can tell)
<troy_s> and it obviously doesn't automatically try to change the gdm etc
<bersace> the wide theme switcher spec i proposed was an improvement of gnome theme properties
<troy_s> yes i saw that
<troy_s> basically it simply needs to have FULL font change, WALLPAPER change, etc., as opposed to the options currently afforded
<troy_s> right now, two fonts are adjustable if you click an additional button, as well as the wallpaper suggestion.
<mhb> how wide would a wide theme switcher be?
<bersace> see https://blueprints.launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+spec/wide-theme-switcher
<mhb> cool
<mhb> troy_s: can't you simply generate a message wave so strong that even sabdfl has to do something with it?
<mhb> troy_s: I mean complain _real loud_
<mhb> (you = the whole artwork team, or whoever wants that team to live and produce art)
<troy_s> well...
<troy_s> no
<bersace> ack
<troy_s> a) we need to respect sabdfl's opinion
<troy_s> that said, i believe there is room in the design area of ubuntu, but it will require some demonstration first
<troy_s> as in demonstrate what is possible, then hopefully have a bit of a groundswell of support.
<troy_s> that might not happen of course, because are and design, despite being formalized disciplines, tend to generate bikeshedding from even the most quiet people.
<mhb> troy_s: what is sabdfl's opinion now? I thought he hasn't made his mind up about the Feisty artwork yet.
<mhb> one of the interesting things for me in the last cycle was that sabdfl has expressed his concerns over the artwork first at the later stages of the cycle
<troy_s> No he has.
<troy_s> What is interesting is that we had checkpoints the entire way to refined the search pattern as it were
<troy_s> and he participated in none.
<troy_s> even though he had many elements that he liked at various steps.
<troy_s> the problem wasn't so much our end, but rather the lack of decision making
<troy_s> frank ended up making decisions, even though he knew that he couldn't.
<mhb> troy_s: I agree. There has to be someone who is devoted to the process and, at the same time, able to make decisions.
<troy_s> and, quite frankly, he is unwilling to let that go.  it is almost as though he would prefer that design of ubuntu be directly suited to himself, as opposed to a more general audience.
<mhb> troy_s: hmm ... reading your LP profile and the ubun2 page
<mhb> troy_s: is that what you described as "demonstrate what's possible" ?
<troy_s> possibly
<troy_s> depends on how it evolves.
<troy_s> it will require a lot of work.
<mhb> I see
<mhb> a lot of the active Edgy designers participate in there
<troy_s> Some.  Our time is limited.  I am currently working on getting Paul Davey on board.
<troy_s> He has thus far done up a mock or two, but unfortunately in Photoshop, so I can't apply it yet.
<troy_s> I have also been in touch with the fellow from 555design.org, and he expressed some interest -- possibly to do the default wallpaper as his style is very well suited for the direction.
<mhb> troy_s: I'll keep my fingers crossed for you
<troy_s> No need really.  We will just need to see what sabdfl cooks up.
<mhb> you said he has made up his mind about Feisty artwork - what were his ideas then?
<troy_s> I think
<troy_s> he is pursuing the rather folly stricken path of gloss and shine
<troy_s> as opposed to attempting to push computer operating system design past the cliches
<mhb> innovation is always misunderstood :o)
<troy_s> which will be no shocker when all of the design buffs start seeing that apple _finally_ will start applying the trend that is pretty much in full swing outside of oses
<troy_s> and then i suppose everyone will be doing it.
<mhb> well, I myself seem to like the clarity of the glossy UIs like Aqua or Aero
<troy_s> subjective relativity personally.
<troy_s> design changes
<troy_s> in 10 years we will look back and say 'what the hell were we thinking'?
<troy_s> which is healthy
<mhb> sure, we must move on
<troy_s> but we must stay ahead of the curve, not chase design trends from the late 90s
<troy_s> if you don't believe me, take a look at the trend that apple is moving in with itunes
<troy_s> vista will show to all that gloss is well _overdone_
<troy_s> to a gaudy level.
<troy_s> chasing to be 'just like the other kids' never works in art and design.  never has.  never will.
<troy_s> 2nd rate citizen with no hopes for surpassing the leaders.
<mhb> well, trends may bring a lot of new users as wel
<mhb> OS and artwork are a bit different worlds
<mhb> art may become respected after several years or decades, even
<mhb> but after several years an OS can become respected, but will not be used a lot, because its' features are outdated
<troy_s> actually
<troy_s> what you will find is that art / design trends and movements spans far greater areas than you probably
<troy_s> think
<troy_s> in fact, what you find is that culturally we follow artistic trends and movements
<troy_s> and those trends are reflected across almost everything we do
<troy_s> for example,
<troy_s> if one were to compare something seemingly as trivial as say, car logo ornaments ('ford', 'dodge' etc.)
<troy_s> and look at the sizes in the 50's
<troy_s> you will see that they were _huge_, covering the bulk of a gate etc.
<troy_s> then as we moved into the anti-commercialism phase of the 80's, they couldn't make them small enough
<troy_s> now, you will see that they have been steadily growing in size yet again
<troy_s> for example, the honda logo is almost 10cm across now on newer models.
<troy_s> all of that basically illustrates that contemporary cultural attitudes are always reflected in art and design
<troy_s> architecture is another area to examine if you want to see almost literal examples of attitudes embodied in design.
<mhb> probably so
<mhb> so what you're trying to do with ubun2 is to make the attitude more visible?
<troy_s> well largely u2 is about taking what ubuntu 'feels' like from the standpoint of a user who hasn't utilized it.
<troy_s> if you read the new design guidelines, you will see that it targets attracting folks to it.
<troy_s> this means taking cues from the term 'ubuntu', how it is created, etc... and attempting to communicate those elements through solid design practices.
<troy_s> ultimate, on some level, all of art and design is communication.
<troy_s> if it fails to communicate, it fails.  this applies to interface elements, usage, aesthetics, etc.
<msikma> I would go almost as far as to say that I work at a marketing company
<msikma> (but I won't; I work at a design company. But the two are very tightly related, as you say.)
<troy_s> indeed.  by no strange coincidence marketing and design are complexly intertwined.
<msikma> oh, drat, that reminds me I still need to do some editing to that flash site
<mhb> then it would be easy to assume that designers (as well as marketing) can push their ideas into production
<troy_s> not sure what you mean.
<troy_s> ?
<mhb> I'm kind of surprised that artwork team (close to marketing) has problems with pushing their ideas into Ubuntu
<troy_s> well we must always accept that
<troy_s> a) not all ideas are great.
<troy_s> b) ultimate democracy won't help the picture.
<troy_s> c) the success of ubuntu is largely because of sabdfl's leadership, so we should at least respect his decisions even when we perceive them to be slightly off.
<troy_s> considering that _no_ one has developed an operating system that wants to compare against ms and osx, it is a learning curve for all.
<troy_s> further still, the respective teams need more people with formal education and experience.
<troy_s> in my opinion.
<mhb> yes
<troy_s> otherwise it is just a tub of bike shedders.
<mhb> launchpad is designed for the work of the teams and the admins who can make decisions
<troy_s> however
<troy_s> that assumes that the final decisions rest in the hands of a given number of people
<troy_s> which is a false assumption.
<mhb> really? why do you think so?
<mhb> all Launchpad is build on this principle, in my opinion :o) you have the core devs, the council, the members ...
<mhb> even though everyone can submit bugs/specs, the decision comes from above
<troy_s> The decisions at some point, start and stop with sabdfl.
<troy_s> At least for now.
<troy_s> without his monetary support, ubuntu would probably just flounder the way that many other distributions do.
<mhb> troy_s: yes, of course
<mhb> but you must not forget all those volunteers. Kubuntu (my distribution of choice) pays only 2 of its developers (AFAIK), and one is an artwork designer (Ken).
<troy_s> Well I don't know if Ken is on the payroll this cycle... I know he was trying to get on again.
<mhb> I'm not sure either.
<mhb> in my opinion the system of a paid employee as an administrator and other people as volunteers works quite well
<mhb> if more people can make the decision, only better
<troy_s> I think it works great.
<troy_s> But again, Kubuntu has more or less free reigns as it isn't the principle driven project.
<troy_s> sabdfl certainly is supporting as much of free software as he can
<troy_s> but 'his' project is Ubuntu, and with it, he exerts extremely careful measure (even if a completely relative statement :) )
<mhb> troy_s: it probably he has more or less the right to do it. But still, he can't oversee everything.
<mhb> troy_s: when do you plan to finish Ubun2 (or make a stable release) ?
<troy_s> well now that my show has wrapped
<troy_s> i am attempting to pound away on the metacity elements
<troy_s> and build a .1 release out of that
<troy_s> probably by new year
<troy_s> which will only offer up metacity ... possibly a few base icons from davey
<troy_s> if i can get him up to speed quick enough
<mhb> so you're doing a new icon set as well?
<troy_s> well my view is that if you are going to design something
<troy_s> you should consider the 'whole' not just small parts
<troy_s> otherwise it is a rather frankenstein approach.
<msikma> I'm confident that many people will like my theme once it's finished. I'm thinking of setting some kind of bounty for someone to do the programming part.
<msikma> Since I really can't do that myself and have no intention to figure out how
<troy_s> We actually have a couple of programmer types in our midst
<troy_s> many of whom i have the utmost respect for
<troy_s> bersace being one capable coder
<troy_s> and sittisal i believe is a decent packager etc.
<bersace> ack :)
<troy_s> i sent davey some mail regarding a mock.
<mhb> msikma: what kind of programming do you need?
<troy_s> he basically mocked up a completely fresh folder icon
<troy_s> which was very organic, but missing the elegant component.
<bersace> i do only coding, no artwork :)
<msikma> mhb: well, I'm working on a theme from scratch. I don't know how to do metacity/etc. markup
<troy_s> metacity is easy
<troy_s> as is gtk sik
<msikma> Plus some tiny other things like packaging the cursors etc.
<troy_s> but you should delve in yourself to figure out the limitations.
<msikma> yeah, that, I probably should anyhow
<troy_s> otherwise your expectations will be limited
<troy_s> also, you should read some of the docs in the cvs regarding metacity 2
<troy_s> etc.
<troy_s> there are some slight theme adjustments.
<msikma> does it support cool new features?
<msikma> I really want anti-aliased corners
<msikma> I also don't really see how it isn't viable from a technical point of view, since we now have SVG/32-bit PNG icons too.
<troy_s> png isn't really a useful aspect
<troy_s> svg is far more suitable to today's day and age.
<troy_s> and the anti-aliased corners are a byproduct of the compositing system
<troy_s> it is possible to augment the way windows are handled and achieve it, but i don't know who would do that.
<msikma> there's also a lot to be said against svg usage.
<troy_s> like?
<msikma> well, for starters, the format is much more complex than png. it's very, very easy to screw up a vector image by having useless/invisible shapes that take up rendering time/ram.
<msikma> whereas a png is just a grid of pixels.
<troy_s> it isn't rendered dynamically
<troy_s> i belive they are cached.
<troy_s> so that isn't a huge factor.
<msikma> the problems would still arise when resizing an image.
<troy_s> Hrm... not exactly if they are cached
<troy_s> you spend your cycles at the head, then it is done.
<troy_s> basically, the svgs are nothing more than dynamically created pngs that are cached more or less.
<msikma> you don't cache them at infinite size.
<msikma> if you resize an svg larger than the version in cache, it needs to be rendered.
<troy_s> no, they take the dest
<troy_s> rect
<troy_s> and render them
<troy_s> once it is done, it is done.
<troy_s> the only time that a svg might require dynamic rendering would be in an animated grow /shrink, but even then, in a good implementation, that caching would take place long before you require it.
<_MMA_> Hi guys. I hope Im not interrupting. Im the lead on the Ubuntu Studio. In a week or 2 would anyone mind test-driving our theme so far?
<_MMA_> Heres a current (work-in-progress) screenshot: http://img506.imageshack.us/img506/3971/screenshot2nz4.png
<_MMA_> (Its big)
<troy_s> love to.
<troy_s> great work on that by the way
<troy_s> i am quite happy that you idle here.
<troy_s> you should be commended
<_MMA_> Thanx. We're tryin.
<troy_s> any hope of turning it into a nle as well?
<msikma> woah. that color contrast is gigantic.
<troy_s> as i work in the film industry, i would love to it.
<msikma> is this, uh, what engine is that called again?
<_MMA_> Im sorry. nle?
<_MMA_> Murrine
<msikma> yeah
<troy_s> non linear edit suite
<_MMA_> For video?
<msikma> I don't really like murrine too much.
<troy_s> you probably can't really see the 'murrine' element sik
<troy_s> _MMA_ film and video yes.
<troy_s> what you are seeing in that screenshot sik is the theming.
<_MMA_> troy_s: Ahh... We're currently tryin to work out the license issues with Cinelerra.
<troy_s> which is more or less vistaized.
<_MMA_> lol. Ouch. :)
<_MMA_> We're also workin on Jahshaka.
<troy_s> Awsome!
<troy_s> Jahshaka looks very promising.
<troy_s> Any chance of collaborating with the cinelerra CVS folks?
<_MMA_> It does, but it seems as though pro video work on linux is lacking.
<troy_s> indeed.
<_MMA_> Well we havnt had direct collaboration with them but we talk with them.
<troy_s> largely because the tools aren't quite there.
<troy_s> but jashaka with some of the high end cinelerra already developed bits would probably put it well on the map.
<_MMA_> Ill take your word for it. Im a audio/art guy myself. :)
<msikma> troy_s: sure I can. Remember when viper550 ported the human layout to murrine? You could very easily see the limitations, and this theme also exhibits that.
<msikma> If it's impossible to tell it's murrine, then surely I wouldn't have noticed.
<troy_s> hrm... what are you seeing msik?
<troy_s> Nevertheless, keep the chin up -- your project is much needed... although I would prefer to see it as a metapackage if possible...
<troy_s> As I would like to add the meta... what do you folks do differently?
<_MMA_> Honestly, Murrine is a test. If we find out that it doesnt do what we want we'll look at something else.
<troy_s> msikma:  the scrollbars to stink in murrine, which is why i am using pixbuf for the proofs of principle.
<troy_s> in fact, why more folks don't use pixbuf is beyond me.
<troy_s> in terms of handling look /feel it cannot be beaten.
<_MMA_> troy_s: "differently " as far as what? :)
<_MMA_> Im thinking Murrine was it so far.
<troy_s> well i am wondering why you package it as a full blown distro as opposed to a metapackage... unless that has changed.
<msikma> troy_s: mostly the combo boxes
<_MMA_> Ohh...
<troy_s> outlines are pretty much all gtk in any engine
<_MMA_> Yea. We have support to do a full blown disk.
<troy_s> is it metapackaged right now?
<troy_s> in universe somewhere?
<_MMA_> It will only be a "Alt" disk.
<_MMA_> We DID have metas up based on Edgy for testing.
<troy_s> a couple of quick notes
<troy_s> aesthetics aside regarding the themes...
<troy_s> you might want to sub handle the corners with pixbuf
<_MMA_> We are currently working on getting whats needed into Universe.
<troy_s> so that you can round the gloss
<troy_s> as opposed to the linear travel across the 3d look
<troy_s> round it down
<troy_s> that is two pixmaps
<troy_s> and a relatively simple add in to your metacity xml file.
* _MMA_ saves chat log.
<_MMA_> You guys know of  Ayo? A French guy that does some nice art?
<troy_s> let me see if i can scrub up some syntax.
<troy_s> no...
<troy_s> links?
<_MMA_> http://www.73lab.com/index.php?menu_item=0&curr_lang=1
<_MMA_> Hes gonna do a wall for us: http://ayo73.free.fr/ubuntustudio/logo-ubuntu-media-1700.png (this is early and wont be the default)
<_MMA_> You might recognize the art.
<ttoine> yep
<ttoine> is there here someone very good at gnome theming ?
<troy_s> learning quickly
<troy_s> what do you need to know ttoine?
<ttoine> hey, troy_s
<troy_s> quick though, i must go pick up my daughter.
<ttoine> actually, i am using a personalized theme in Ubuntu
<ttoine> and since the Human theme, i have only one bad thing
<ttoine> i use the control theme of clearlooks-bright, and i have the text-sign in the checkboxes, or radiobutton, that is too bright
<ttoine> so i have two questio
<ttoine> questions
<troy_s> text-sign?
<troy_s> as in the text that appears besides radio/checks?
<ttoine> http://ttoine.net/capture.png
<ttoine> no, not besides
<ttoine> the check character
<troy_s> ahh the actual check
<troy_s> now i am with you
<troy_s> quickly:  clearlooks bright?
<ttoine> yep
<troy_s> as your window controls?
<ttoine> yes
<troy_s> what package is that in?
<ttoine> with a human theme base
<ttoine> no package
<ttoine> i just changed the details of the human theme in theme preferences
<troy_s> let me do a quick look
<ttoine> with the old human-legacy, the checkboxes look good
<troy_s> Clearlooks
<ttoine> since the new one, it is too bright$
<troy_s> ClearlooksAlternative
<troy_s> is all i see
<ttoine> troy_s: no, i have the Human for windows border, and clearlookbrights for control, and tango or tangerine for icons
<ttoine> what i would like to do is just change the color of the checkboxes so they are not too bright
<troy_s> yes i don't have clearlooks bright
<ttoine> and second, i would like to know how i can package that specifiec theme
<troy_s> its very easy to do
<ttoine> actually, i would like to keep a human base, as possible
<troy_s> email me though, i really must head out.
<troy_s> you can find me in launchpad easily.
<troy_s> the colour is basically relatively simple to adjust
<troy_s> if you bomb into gtkrc
<troy_s> ok i must run for a few... sorry guys.
<ttoine> troy_s: no matter, i email you
<ttoine> what do you need ?
<troy_s> i just need to see where clearlooks bright is coming from
<troy_s> as in, if it were clearlooks, i can browse the files... clearlooks bright i don't see.
<troy_s> if it is clearlooks, then just go into /usr/share/themes/Clearlooks
<ttoine> ok, so you want me to send you the clearlook theme i am using ?
<troy_s> and adjust the gtkrc file under gtkrc2.0
<troy_s> just email me a reminder... i will look into it.
<troy_s> also send me exactly what window control you are using...
<troy_s> as in the full name.
<troy_s> ClearlooksBright I don't have
<troy_s> and it isn't installed by default.
<troy_s> nor can i find it easily in the repos.
<ttoine> the windows control i standard Human
<ttoine> i just changed the control theme
<ttoine> troy_s: wich troy are you on launchpad ?
<mhb> https://launchpad.net/people/troy-sobotka/
<mhb> :o)
<mhb> I was reading it today, so I had the address saved ...
<ttoine> ok, thanks a lot
<bersace> troy_s: thanks for the title ;)
<ttoine> troy_s: mail sent
<troy_s> thanks
#ubuntu-artwork 2006-12-22
<_MMA_> troy_s: Are you around?
* Starting logfile irclogs/ubuntu-artwork.log
<troy_s> _MMA_: ever so briefly... what's up?
<_MMA_> troy_s: This is huwshimi. He's the Ubuntu Studio Art lead. He's also submitted art for Xubuntu in the past.
<troy_s> ahh great.
<troy_s> i am off for dinner... but i recognize him
<huwshimi> troy_s: Hi
<troy_s> hi you going to be around for awhile huwshimi ?
<troy_s> must jet for now... back in a few.
<huwshimi> _MMA_: Not Xubuntu , just Ubuntu
<_MMA_> Oh..
<huwshimi> troy_s: Yeah.
<huwshimi> troy_s: I am from Australia, so It's 12:30pm ish here
<sittisal> hey
<sittisal> hello everybody
<sittisal> troy_s, ping
<sittisal> i think that for ubun2 look, whe should reconsider the black-gray and wood style...
<sittisal> while i was looking at apple garageband...
<sittisal> interface
<sittisal> http://www.apple.com/ilife/garageband/
<lapo> ciao
<mhb> I agree with Frank on that one
<mhb> too bad he's leaving but I would most likely do a similar thing if I were him
<troy_s> mhb Frank Scheop?
<mhb> troy_s: yes
<troy_s> What about him leaving?
<mhb> troy_s: Well I understand it from his last mail
<troy_s> Yeah just read it... that stinks.
<mhb> well, yes.
<mhb> Disappointment is probably wide-spread across the whole team.
<troy_s> Indeed.
<mhb> you & the ubun2 folks try to gain respect by impressing the people (man) in charge, which is an interesting decision.
<mhb> on the other hand there are people who either stop the activity or leave completely (which is basically what Frank decided to do)
<mhb> and some (at least me) who would try to make the problem visible to the authorities by talking about it more
<mhb> blogging about it, commenting it, bring it up on some community meetings etc.
<mhb> leaving the team is a sign - but only if people know about it
<troy_s> Actually
<troy_s> I suspect your approach is possibly the most intelligent
<troy_s> Hopefully you can gain a little momentum.
<mhb> troy_s: well, too bad I don't have a blog :o)
<mhb> troy_s: but I should write something
<troy_s> Create a blog using some of the free ones.
<troy_s> mhb I think the best thing is for everyone who is a little 'disappointed' with ubuntu art/design to really band together and organize a solid little campaign.
<mhb> troy_s: yes, I vote for that too
<mhb> troy_s: maybe an email in the ML will show how many people are willing to do the campaign
<troy_s> Certainly not a horrible idea.  Perhaps find a few other folks like minded as you and make it a little more than apparent bikeshedding.
<mhb> so, should I ask in the ML first or contacting the community (via forums, etc) right away?
<mhb> I guess the best approach would be to ask around in the u-a ML first
#ubuntu-artwork 2006-12-23
<gouki> Hi! Anyone online?
<BHSPitLappy> yo
* mhb 's tired, but here
<nysosym> hi all
<nysosym> what do u think, that frank will leave the art team? :-/
<nysosym> hi andreasn
<andreasn> hey nysosym
<andreasn> what's up?
<nysosym> frank will leave the artwork team :-/
<andreasn> ah, yes, he posted some mail to the ubuntu-art list, right?
<nysosym> yes
<nysosym> that make's me sadly :-(
<andreasn> I get e-mail all the time about people signing off the artwork-team thing (from launchpad?)
<nysosym> andreasn: so far as i know, completely. He will be the community manager
<klepas> elkbuntu: you're here too
<elkbuntu> klepas, yes, i am
<klepas> how are you holding up?
<elkbuntu> good. yourself?
<klepas> so-so
<klepas> few things bothering me
<klepas> other things are good
<klepas> merry xmas btw :)
<elkbuntu> same to you :)
<klepas> i think i've done what Frank has done
<klepas> though lacking a long explanatory email
<elkbuntu> heh
<mhb> klepas: you could have done better :o)
<mhb> klepas: I guess informing the public about the situtation and trying to change it would be a better solution
<klepas> it's sort useless when i've effectively done what Frank has done, minus the email, from around almost 2 release cycles ago
<mhb> klepas: but if you know the whole story I guess you know there's something rotten with the Artwork Team management
<mhb> klepas: blogging about it doesn't hurt
<klepas> i can't be arsed doing that either
<klepas> by now i'm somewhat out of touch of the more recent happenings
<klepas> and i don't want to put flamebait on the net
<mhb> klepas: your choice
<klepas> i'll probably just end up making comments regarding how mark hired people rather than going to the community
<klepas> and how ubuntu uses human
<klepas> no sources, made by some contracted chaps using proprietary tools
<klepas> then the whole crap about trying to reform the art team to work like some design studio
<klepas> with design specs no one can be honestly bothered reading
<klepas> i can't honestly be bothered at the moment
<mhb> klepas: trying to rationalize the artwork doesn't look like a bad idea to me
<klepas> maybe after the new year
<klepas> or rather after LCA
<klepas> that will probably boost my interest in foss again
<klepas> mhb: not when it ends up hindering creativity
<klepas> there are lots of designers and art-sy people who hate, loathe reading specs
<klepas> who just want to dable and then see how well it is received
<klepas> i dunno
<klepas> two sided blade
<mhb> klepas: sure, but don't forget that artwork for an OS is not pure art
<klepas> yea
<mhb> klepas: you can't experiment that much
<mhb> klepas: you have to consider what the user will think - and that's where specifications starts
<klepas> experimenting is the way to go, whether it makes it in or not is another thing
<klepas> trying new ideas is not bad
<klepas> the whole "we must make it look entirely the same, even if it's shite" philosophy personally annoys me after a while
<klepas> but overall the biggest was the marks abandonment
<klepas> not that i've not contributed
<klepas> but yea
<klepas> i'll be back in a while to come
<klepas> maybe 30 minutes
<mhb> okay
<troy_s> Look
<troy_s> we need to spec the artwork
<troy_s> what you are seeing happen now is _exactly_ what happens without a spec
<troy_s> further, if you look to the quality of work that actually _does_ get done, it often suffers from inconsistencies and similar traits that simply are avoided by design guidelines and such
<troy_s> if you can't be bothered to treat art and design as a formal process and not some leisurely hobby based element,
<troy_s> then it probably isn't wise to attempt and develop bits for something.
<troy_s> there are lots of designers and art-sy people who hate, loathe reading specs
<troy_s> <klepas> who just want to dable and then see how well it is received
<troy_s> rubbish
<troy_s> there are lots of talented, trained, professional artists and designers who would love to work on free software
<troy_s> but loathe the haphazard design decisions, the poor implementation strategies, and the awful 'dabbly' appearance of most work.
<troy_s> 2 cents.
<msikma> I think that the interface design of many Linux apps also have got to do with it.
#ubuntu-artwork 2006-12-24
<klepas> troy_s: i didn't say that there were only people who wanted to dabble
<klepas> i just hate a whole crapload of stuff to read through
<klepas> i feel it limits my creativity
<klepas> the most amount of specs i would find acceptable is something around the mark of the tango icon guidelines
<klepas> also +1 for it being in a nice, simple and easy-to-read/navigate manner (ie. the tango icon guidelines)
<troy_s> the tango guidelines are a good start,
<troy_s> but far from a comprehensive design document.
<troy_s> and while you might hate documents to read through, there are many who rely on them for directed development.  its simply one of the byproducts of professional development.
<Jak08> ok, I know i have popped in a few times in the past, but yesterday i was able to get ubuntu to install using vmware fusion for my mac, so I am now able to actually contribute
<gouki> Hi! I'm looking for someone who can give me a hand on a implementation of a Planet (webdesign side of things).
#ubuntu-artwork 2007-12-17
<troy_s> Where is the news?  *sigh*
<BHSPitMonkey> Huey Lewis ran off with it I think
<troy_s> BHSPitMonkey: Whoa.  I'd say that dated you if I didn't know you better.
<BHSPitMonkey> damn
<BHSPitMonkey> I am aware of the group, though I don't know that I could identify them by music or photograph.
<BHSPitMonkey> But uh, Sports
<kwwii> you can look at the specs and they will show you what is going to happen for hardy (not the actual direction, but you get the point)
<kwwii> troy_s: working on a palette (while on vacation)
<kwwii> and with that, I am going back to bed
<lapo> hi
<zniavre> hello / bonjour
<zniavre> im looking for the way to get arrow black instead of white (eg gconf-editor)
<zniavre> http://img403.imageshack.us/img403/9376/testmi7.jpg
<troy_s> zniavre: What do you mean by arrow Black?
<darkmatter> troy_s: I think he means the gtk-treeview
<troy_s> darkmatter: I don't know if he is talking a cursor or the outline in AWN.  I suspect it is an AWN question really.
<darkmatter> ahh... I thought he meant the almost invisible treeview arrows *shrug*, though could be awn
<darkmatter> damn. I hate how half of gnome handles background pixmaps in some apps
<darkmatter> once again, devs abuse gtk
<darkmatter> troy_s: wanna see a piece o' crap? http://www.flickr.com/photo_zoom.gne?id=2114714649&size=o
<zniavre> (17:33:16) troy_s: zniavre: What do you mean by arrow Black? >small arrow in gconf-editor (excuse my english i do not know the word for it)
<zniavre> (17:36:37) darkmatter: ahh... I thought he meant the almost invisible treeview arrows >yes this one !! do you know where is the option in gtkrx for them ?
<troy_s> Darn... missed Neil.
<troy_s> zniavre: The arrows are controlled by the arrow 'class' in GTK.  If you use the pixmap engine (Looks like that theme might be using it) you can easily modify the arrows to meet your desire.
<troy_s> zniavre: If the theme uses an engine, simply add the pixmap engine and only override the arrows class.
<troy_s> kwwii: Where are the blueprint links?  Drop them into topic.
<zniavre> troy_s: thank you , i thought it was more simple to do it
* kwwii changed the topic of #ubuntu-artwork to: http://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopTeam/Specs/HardyIconTheme http://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopTeam/Specs/HardyTheme
<kwwii> troy_s: done
<kwwii> and back to bed
#ubuntu-artwork 2007-12-18
<troy_s> Wholly phoop those spec pages are depressing to read.  Mark should invest 10 million dollars to purchase a clue for all of the commenteers.
<troy_s> To be fair, not all.  But a disproportionate 'gnome-look-percentage' perhaps.
<Toma-> what are you whining about? :D
<Toma-> *link*?
<troy_s> Toma-: Just the specs.
<troy_s> Toma-: Check the topic.
<Toma-> ok, i agree.
<Toma-> troy_sâ have you seen fedora 8 yet?
<troy_s> Toma-: Yeah it saddens me.
<Toma-> yeh its pretty flash sounding, but seriously, is it going to make it easier to use?
<troy_s> Toma-: We now form the unholy trinity of worst case design.  Tepid.  Bland.  Unsuccessful.
<troy_s> Toma-: Hrm?
<Toma-> rhetorical question :)
<Toma-> ive been playing with some layouts in e17. trying to make a more dynamic work flow
<troy_s> Toma-: I was greatly disappointed when I heard Diana had left Red Hat.
<Toma-> :o
<Toma-> why?
<troy_s> Toma-: She is working with a video game company in California.
<Toma-> (did she leave?)
<Toma-> awww
<Toma-> bugger :(
<troy_s> Toma-: Worse, the sad timing of the article which claimed "Red Hat has been the best looking distribution for a while..." was right on time with Fedora 8 -- the _worst_ release for them out of the past four.
<Toma-> heh :/
<Toma-> well I hope its inspired some more people
<troy_s> Toma-: Rather ... appropriate.  They should have done that interview when she dropped the Fedora 7 work.  It just goes to show you that Free Software might not be ready for the true designers out there just yet.
<Toma-> that way it wont be a loss
<troy_s> Toma-: Red Hat should probably have offered her more money and given her the keys to the car.
<Toma-> i thought she was already in control of most of the direction?
<troy_s> Toma-: She was quite exceptional and an asset to FOSS.
<troy_s> Toma-: Well like anything, she probably had her hands, arms, legs, and other body parts crimped all to hell by people who inevitably 'know better'.
<troy_s> Toma-: Despite the fact that she was probably the only one at Red Hat with a degree in fine arts.
<troy_s> (MFA)
<Toma-> mmm
<troy_s> Toma-: We have had a long string of very talented artists and designers pop up and around...
<troy_s> Toma-: G. Sartori (Brazil institute of design grad), Coz (fine arts grad from Spain iirc), Damian Villa (Grad from Spain again iirc)
<Toma-> troy_sâ yeh, alot of people usually give up straight away when no-one appreciates their work
<troy_s> Toma-: Well it isn't about appreciating the work (although that is probably a good portion of it)
<Toma-> if its not a Vista clone, then the general population wont give a crap
<troy_s> Toma-: It is an antagonistic culture devoid of a willingness to change.
<Toma-> yep.
<troy_s> Toma-: I would like to hope that that isn't the case.  A good deal of people want something distinctly 'them', and the first sign of a 'knockoff' probably repels more than anything.
<Toma-> i was having a chat to darkmatter the other day about a simple UI. one that uses speech to text recognition, and an AI bot that can parse to commandline or something
<troy_s> Toma-: If history shows us one thing, the quest for an xxx Killer (such as iPod killer) etc. seems to be regularily met with failure.  While you are busy creating the 'WalkmanKiller' the completely-different-thing-iPod comes out and kills it.
<Toma-> the components are out there in the land of FOSS, no-ones plugged them together yet tho
<Toma-> ineed
<troy_s> Toma-: Darkmatter's last effort has really impressed me.
<Toma-> *indeed
<troy_s> Toma-: There is something 'wonky' about the font he chose, but the interface regarding buttons and 3D subtlety is amazing.  I would only probably tweak the top light to top left.
<Toma-> yeh
<troy_s> Toma-: Minor detail -- it is leagues in front of the most of what I have been looking at.
<Toma-> personally, im sick to death of win95 layouts and feels
<Toma-> to be frank, the usual gnome layout is just that with an extra panel
<troy_s> Toma-:  Absolutely.  I give a hearty plus one to the gOS guys for saying 'bugger it' to the G / K duality and forging on ahead with e
<Toma-> http://members.iinet.net.au/~haste/e17/layouttest.png
<troy_s> Toma-: Although Ken's work (the fellow who has been mocking the nights and days away on that theme in the mailing list) has much admirable persistence.
<Toma-> current layout im messing with
<Toma-> finding it a little heavy on the right. mainly because im spending too much time on irc :)
<troy_s> ssh there he is.
<_MMA_> :P
<troy_s> Toma-: I should probably get easy_e working again.  It bombed out on last attempt.
<troy_s> Toma-: Do you do any SLR photography or like work?
<Toma-> nah i dont have a camera
<Toma-> (im a music teacher)
<Toma-> (on school holidays :>)
<Toma-> E is handy for tinkering with layouts and feels
<troy_s> Toma-: That Crud?
<Toma-> hu?
<troy_s> Toma-: Is that Crud?
<troy_s> Toma-: Erm... Buuf.
<Toma-> ...yeh a little bit of buuf
<Toma-> :D
<Toma-> was giving it a try
<Toma-> i made a KDE desk with buuf. not very cool.
<troy_s> Toma-: How does the filemanager look by default now in E?  Screenshot?
<Toma-> very artistic, but not very comfortable
<Toma-> well
<Toma-> its got a toolbar... and location and navigator plugins for it
<Toma-> i havent themed it too deeply yet in my theme
<Toma-> http://members.iinet.net.au/~haste/e17/efm.png
<Toma-> you can theme the toolbar in it. i just made mine the same at the background colour so far and the buttons of course, can be modified
<troy_s> Toma-: Yes... I am aware that E is very themable.  I was just wondering about the default.  Last time I tried the icon size was hideously small.
<Toma-> you can change that in the config
<Toma-> you can have like, 200px icons?
<troy_s> Toma-: Yes... what was the default?
<troy_s> Toma-: Do you have entrance running?
<Toma-> oh... i cant remember :| gimme a sec
<Toma-> nah i use KDM
<Toma-> 48 is default
<troy_s> Toma-: Is entrance stable ?
<Toma-> well i know people use it, but i dont.
<Toma-> as for e17 itself, I use it daily. firefox crashes more often than it
<Toma-> ive got to go. lunch time
<Toma-> theres a few devs lurking in #e at the moment if you need to know more
<lapo> hi
<_MMA_> darkmatter: You got time to poke around a metacity.xlm later for me?
#ubuntu-artwork 2007-12-19
<bersace> Hi everyone
<bersace> is it planned to ship a kind of "Dark Ubuntu" ?
<bersace> Some people do like such theme especially since it's less tiring for the eyes
<andreasn> hey bersace
<andreasn> I would like to ship a dark theme in gnome-themes
<bersace> sounds good
<andreasn> we currently have darklooks in gnome-themes-extras, but it would be nice to have something in gnome-themes
<andreasn> and that worked really
<andreasn> well
<andreasn> jimmac even suggested we should do it out of the box in upstream gnome :)
<andreasn> as the default
<andreasn> anyway, have any good candidates? (bonus points if it's using the clearlooks engine)
<bersace> no candidate
<andreasn> kwwii: ping
<kwwii> hi andreasn
<andreasn> hey!
<kwwii> hey man
<kwwii> just stopping in shortly before going to band practice
<andreasn> a dude just came into #gnome-art asking for some help with getting his custom usplash working
<andreasn> know any better guide than https://help.ubuntu.com/community/USplashCustomizationHowto ?
<kwwii> hrm, probably the same person who sent an email to the entire usplash list
<kwwii> nope, and not all of that information is totally correct I guess
<andreasn> komputes? some canadian guy?
<kwwii> lol, he is apparently a canonical employee
<andreasn> yes
<andreasn> anyway, I asked him to try to contact you, I forgot like 90% of how I last did it :)
<kwwii> talking to him on the canonical chat atm
<kwwii> cool
<andreasn> ah, good
<kwwii> yeah, it is not exactly staright forward
<kwwii> straight
<andreasn> anyway, see you later!
<andreasn> good luck with the band practice
<kwwii> yeah, see you around
<kwwii> I'll be online tomorrow answering all my emails and such before leaving for america on friday
<kwwii> spent the last couple days trying to relax before christmas starts
 * komputes is back from lunch
<komputes> kwwii: let me know if you are back and have a few minutes so that we can work on updating the usplash
<komputes> tutorial/documentation
<troy_s> komputes: There is one person who knows more about usplash than anyone in here by a long mile -- his name is Tonic.  You can track him down via the forums.
<komputes> troy_s: thanks for the tip
<troy_s> komputes: If you are looking to update documentation etc, he is the defacto person to chat with as he has stretched usplash well beyond anything out there.
<komputes> troy_s: thank you, I contacted him on the forums
<zniavre> hello / bonjour
<zniavre> http://img142.imageshack.us/img142/8050/screenshot2zg9.png
<zniavre> how to remove the line around toolbar please? im using murrine engine?
<zniavre> engine.*
<somerville32> kwwii, ping.
<kwwii> somerville32: pong
<somerville32> kwwii, sitrep
<kwwii> somerville32: ???
<somerville32> situation report :P
<kwwii> hehe
<kwwii> well, did you look into adding the wallpaper?
<somerville32> kwwii, Yes, thats what we did the last time we talked
<kwwii> ok, did you add it to the bzr repo?
<somerville32> kwwii, no, I was waiting to hear back from you.
<kwwii> lol
<kwwii> you can go ahead and change things without worry, if there is a problem we can always revert
<somerville32> kwwii, Do you it uploaded for Alpha 2?
<somerville32> *want
<kwwii> somerville32: yes please :-)
<somerville32> I'll have to violate the freeze but I should get authorization
<kwwii> let me know and I can poke the right people as well
<kwwii> once you have commited the bzr repo and uploaded I'll tell seb or pitti to include it
<kwwii> although I am still on vacation I'll be going through my mail tomorrow and taking care of a few things before I leave for america
<somerville32> You guys should make a nice little icon for the u-a-p team :)
<somerville32> It currently has no branding
<kwwii> I for one have always wondered what the point is behind creating an icon for every different team
<somerville32> To make people like me feel special :)
<kwwii> hehe, right
<somerville32> I also found the package were the default filename is stored
<kwwii> we could just use a really small picture of you ;-)
<kwwii> cool
<somerville32> haha
<kwwii> troy_s: what has tonic done with the usplash that others have not?
<kwwii> I would like to see good instructions on using a throbber instead of a progress bar or so
<somerville32> kwwii, uploading
<somerville32> (branch)
<kwwii> somerville32: excellent, so the changes went into gutsy-wallpapers?
<kwwii> I will ping seb tomorrow and make sure it gets included
<somerville32> no
<somerville32> They went into ubuntu-wallpapers
<somerville32> https://code.edge.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-art-pkg/ubuntu-wallpapers/ubuntu
<kwwii> excellent, thanks
<kwwii> we'll need to do a debuild on the package
<somerville32> I'm pretty sure they have a script for that :P
<somerville32> I already tested it, it builds
<kwwii> cool, that is what is important
<kwwii> usually they ask me to run debuild on it and poke them with the results
#ubuntu-artwork 2007-12-20
<crimsun> kwwii: / somerville32: Is rev12 (ubuntu-wallpapers) proposed for Alpha 2?
<somerville32> crimsun, Before the page loads, I'll default to saying yes
<crimsun> that's:
<crimsun> timestamp: Wed 2007-12-19 15:29:20 -0800
<crimsun> message: * Set elephant-skin (now a png) to the default wallpaper
<somerville32> Right
<crimsun> somerville32: ok, running the checks
<somerville32> crimsun, ack
<crimsun>   ubuntu-wallpapers_0.19_source.changes: done.
<crimsun> Successfully uploaded packages.
<crimsun> thanks!
<crimsun> somerville32: it's likely queued during the LP downtime
<somerville32> crimsun, launchpad isn't down atm
<crimsun> somerville32: all right.  I've uploaded the source package but haven't received an ACK yet.  If it hasn't come through in a few hours, ping me on IRC, and I'll try to respond ASAP.
<mgunes> hi all
<mgunes> kwwii, what's the status of art.ubuntu.com, and what functionality of the wiki pages will it replace, if any?
 * mgunes is trying to answer some questions on the forums
<somerville32> kwwii, ping
<lapo> hi
<troy_s> <kwwii> troy_s: what has tonic done with the usplash that others have not?
<troy_s> kwwii: Much.
<troy_s> kwwii: He has animated elements, added a full blown bit of compositing code (see the Fluxbuntu usplash for an example) and played around with all sorts of different approaches.
<kwwii> troy_s: wow, killer
<kwwii> good morning all
<troy_s> kwwii: morn
<kwwii> man, looking at the mailing list it seems I have a lot to catch up on
<kwwii> I really dig those brown mocks from Ken
<troy_s> kwwii: He basically has done much with the usplash api and escaped the uber-shi*ty "hey let's do a progress bar" crap.
<troy_s> kwwii: You are in a rather lonely minority according to digg responses from some of the more mainstream folks.
<kwwii> yeah, the first thing I want to kill is the progress bar
<kwwii> hehe
<troy_s> http://digg.com/linux_unix/New_Ubuntu_Hardy_Theme_Mockup
<troy_s> specifically with regards to the theme, its pretty heavy handed and rather monochromatic (yet again / still / etc.)
<kwwii> right, but it does get an idea across (of using a bit of color in the windows themselves)
<troy_s> oh and rather vista cloned.  the windeco is rather repulsively vista.
<kwwii> it does go a bit far
<troy_s> same hue though.
<troy_s> orange/brown/dark brown is that same nasty 'we can't figure out colour theory' trap.
<kwwii> a lot of those comments on dig are the normal "brown is shit"
<troy_s> and well... in monotony i probably agree with that sentiment.
<kwwii> which comes from the use of brown alone (and way too much of it)
<troy_s> yes.
<troy_s> and the fact that brown gets 'brown here there and everywhere'
<kwwii> right
<troy_s> there is nothing wrong with bloody well contrasting the elements with a different interface tone
<troy_s> (although granted, I still think the dark tones on windows etc are probably wayyyy too heavy for mainstreamers)
<kwwii> definitely
<kwwii> my idea was to use a bit of brown/orange at the top of the window in some kind of trans. gradient or such
<troy_s> kwwii: The saddest thing is that brown is heavy trendy again and Ubuntu still can't figure out even the most simple of colour pairings for it.
<troy_s> kwwii: I just saw the newer adidas stuff for women's bags, and the centerpiece was a brown bag with yellow/white/and rouge flowers
<kwwii> yeah, I really need to get the palettes ready so that people can actually understand what I mean
<troy_s> the new burton line also uses brown base
<troy_s> as well as the new quicksilver line
<troy_s> all pretty hot markets.
<kwwii> well, when I was talking to mark and I told him that we use too much brown, and no other colors he disagreed with me
<kwwii> actually he got quite angry
<troy_s> well he is an idiot on that
<troy_s> i told you about that discussion
<troy_s> he is simply in the dark
<troy_s> brilliant guy
<kwwii> but in the end I made it clear that we will use another color
<troy_s> idiot in terms of art and design.
<troy_s> well you can try
<troy_s> he'll trump your ass.
<kwwii> I had to show him a bunch of pics from other ads and such to explain the idea of using another color
<kwwii> in the end I think he got it
<troy_s> its pretty simple
<troy_s> if you use one other colour, try the compliment
<troy_s> two, try the triplet
<troy_s> etc
<kwwii> it is simple for use to understand but he simply did not get it on his own
<troy_s> bloody artskool 101 crap that shouldn't even need to be spoken about.
<kwwii> no doubt
<kwwii> I will have a basic palette done sometime today or tomorrow
<kwwii> I'll send it to you and we can discuss it before I show the world
<kwwii> my biggest problem at the moment is that I forgot about all the holiday I had left over
<kwwii> :p
<kwwii> so now I have to take it and still have so much to do, canonical wants things done and my wife thinks that holiday should be holiday (and I can help around the house, etc.)
<troy_s> ok i'm off for shower and bed
<troy_s> this feature is going to probably be the end of me
<troy_s> long hellish days.
<troy_s> i have just finished speaking with andrew menzies (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0579980/) and he is willing to do an interview style q/a if there is interest.  I'll post when I figure out how I am going to do it.
<troy_s> Hopefully it will bring some _real_ designer experience into the fold and show some folks how it is done out in the real world outside of bloody closed mentality land.
<troy_s> kwwii: http://enthree.com/files/random/web2logos/
<troy_s> If anyone needs to know why gloss and wet floors are ass, that link will show you why.
<kwwii> troy_s: lol, very nice
<kwwii> gloss is dead, in my eyes
<kwwii> and my guess is that the only place that a reflection will come in play is in the music-player-cover-view-thingy (although that is already quite overdone)
<andreasn> hi!
<kwwii> hi andreasn
<troy_s> kwwii: The only _problem_ with killing the hideous trend of gloss (which someone one the list erroneously accredited with Apple's direction (very clearly not paying attention to Apple's current trend)) is that it leaves a vacuum.
<troy_s> kwwii: It leaves a void of style once again, which is something that has yet to be addressed.
<kwwii> yepp, agreed
<troy_s> kwwii: Without a style, Ubuntu is no better off than in the mire of rubbish that it is currently locked.  I fear adding that style flair is too much politically.  I hope I am wrong on that, but at Ubuntu's current pace and hideous decisions behind art direction and such it is on pace to be the more vilified successor to Microsoft products.
<kwwii> and the good thing is that now we have until hardy+1 to think though things
<kwwii> hehe
<troy_s> We need look no further than the hideous photography that Shuttleworth insists on putting in the corner of the website and the nasty CD covers.
<troy_s> anyways, sleep time.
 * troy_s outs.
<kwwii> all of the photos are changing, btw
<kwwii> see you
<andreasn> I think the photos are nice
<kwwii> andreasn: yeah, but they are a bit old and over-used in the meantime
<kwwii> we are going to be getting new ones soon
<kwwii> and probably not pics of people this time
<andreasn> all right
<kwwii> time for lunch, bbiab
<andreasn> I just didn't think hideous was the correct adjective to use :)
<zniavre> hello / bonjour
<zniavre> there is a way to remove small line between menu and tool bar please?
<zniavre> http://img262.imageshack.us/img262/9231/screenshot5sa2.png
<somerville32> kwwii, ping
<kwwii> somerville32: pong
<somerville32> kwwii, all done
<kwwii> somerville32: killer, thanks a lot
<somerville32> np
<rencore_> hello
#ubuntu-artwork 2007-12-22
<lukeen> maybe this can be anyhow useful for you: http://lukeen.blogspot.com/2007/12/some-orange-icons.html ?
<rainwalker> is there a set release when hardy's new theme will be used?
<troseph> It will probably come out with the final release.
<rainwalker> aw...ok, thanks :)
<rainwalker> who actually decides what theme to use? does the design team have a vote or something?
#ubuntu-artwork 2007-12-23
<troy_s> <rainwalker> is there a set release when hardy's new theme will be used?
<troy_s> No.  Ultimately it must pass up the channels and be decided upon.
<troy_s> <rainwalker> who actually decides what theme to use? does the design team have a vote or something?
<troy_s> Ultimately?  That would be sabdfl (Mark Shuttleworth).
<troy_s> Vote?  No.
<rainwalker> Mark makes the final decision? I didn't know that
<troseph> Self-Appointed Benevolent Dictator for Life. Nice.
<tretle> hey
<troy_s> tretle: Ho.
<tretle> till a big debate over the new theme?
<tretle> till - still
<troy_s> tretle: Not really.
<troy_s> tretle: The pointless discussion comes out of a lack of a clearly stated audience, concept, etc.
<troy_s> tretle: It is a complete cyclical waste of time up to that point.
<tretle> lol
<tretle> What about that mockup then... the very brown one that makes use of compositing by the looks of it
<tretle> would it even be sane to think that a theme like that could be implemented in time for hardys release
<tretle> when breakthroughs in compositing with themes are only really just happening now
<troy_s> tretle: Spot on.
<BHSPitMonkey> I don't think sabdfl has a history of wanting to push the envelope, visually
<DanaG> Right now I'm using this:  http://www.gnome-look.org/content/show.php/jellyfish?content=69939  (the Aurora variant).  I miss orange, but that theme doesn't work in orange.
<troy_s> tretle: Not to mention questioning the validity of the rather lacking 'concept' and other minor details such as icon set pairing, font, etc.
<BHSPitMonkey> though I do remember hearing that hardy was going to be a major step
<troy_s> BHSPitMonkey: 100% correct.  The only 'major step' has been a push from Ken (Wimer).  Whether that happens is a whole other question.
<tretle> hopefully
<troy_s> DanaG: I would argue that from the standpoint of someone completely unfamiliar with Ubuntu there is little difference between that and whatever else GTK is already in place.
<BHSPitMonkey> I get the feeling that the visual presentation is going to be similar to how it's always been for a long, long time
<troy_s> tretle: Doubtful if I look to history and experience... but we shall see.
<troy_s> BHSPitMonkey: Yes.  Ultimately it is a byproduct of sabdfl's taste (yikes) and that will always be the case until he choses to either mature or bet on risk.
<BHSPitMonkey> I don't think it's his taste
<troy_s> BHSPitMonkey: I do.  He has zero clue.
<tretle> well wasnt there an update a few hours ago with the compositing hack included but switched off for default
<BHSPitMonkey> I think it's him being conservative
<BHSPitMonkey> and willfully keeping things simple
<BHSPitMonkey> read: boring
<DanaG> I tried the compositing Metacity, and boy are those grey rectangles on alt-tab ugly.
<BHSPitMonkey> not wanting to risk doing something to throw off the growth of the software
<DanaG> If they'd keep the regular alt-tab behavior, that'd be better.
<troy_s> BHSPitMonkey: He is indeed conservative.  And worse, it appears he bases his creative knowledge on 'what the other kid is doing'.  Look no further than bug 1.
<ubotu> Launchpad bug 1 in ubuntu "Microsoft has a majority market share" [Critical,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1
<BHSPitMonkey> which, frankly, I don't understand;  Ubuntu already gets picked on left and right for its appearance (from morons, albeit, but still)
<troy_s> BHSPitMonkey: He is a genius in many respects and I completely am envious of his mind and abilities.  Innovation and creativity however, I'd suggest he is lacking both formal knowledge and the ability to risk.
<troy_s> BHSPitMonkey: Perhaps ultimately it is all about a level of 'care'.  Steve Jobs cares about the fine arts.  Shuttleworth seems rather agnostic.
<troy_s> BHSPitMonkey: And the results show.
<tretle> so do u all think the theme will stay unchanged?
<troy_s> tretle: If I were betting in Las Vegas, I would bet against change, yes.
<BHSPitMonkey> yeah
<BHSPitMonkey> those tech industry bookies are hard to come by though
<tretle> lol
<troy_s> BHSPitMonkey: You clever bugger.
<picard_pwns_kirk> good morning
#ubuntu-artwork 2008-12-15
<rsc-> sup fellas
<_MMA_> yo
<gaminggeek> hey
<darkmatter> moo!
<robsta> hi thorwil
<thorwil> hi robsta
 * thorwil just watched the uds videos with Mark, Julian, Kenneth, Ted and Jono
<SealV> how can I make a wire-mesh texture in inkscape without giving myself an aneurysm?
<_MMA_> SealV: #inkscape will be the best channel to ask in.
<SealV> thanks
#ubuntu-artwork 2008-12-16
<_MMA_> Nam. No posts to the ML in 5 days.
<_MMA_> *Man
<thorwil> http://the-space-station.com/2008/12/15/ubuntu-logo-similarity-contest
<manzur> hello
<manzur> check this
<manzur> http://ebupof.deviantart.com/art/Ubuntu-website-84984292
<manzur> http://same-gfx.deviantart.com/art/screenflow-portfolio-81710478
<manzur> u'll love this
<manzur> we need this for ubuntu
<manzur> artwork
<manzur> web site
<thorwil> my personal opinion is 2 times no. i don't love it and don't think "we" need it
<manzur> what do ya think people
<manzur> ?
<manzur> why
<manzur> i mean this is ubuntu artwork channel
<manzur> are you art designers
<manzur> ?
<knome> yes and people can disagree about things in here as well.
<thorwil> manzur: the heron is release specific ... don't even know why it's there, showing through only so slightly
<thorwil> manzur: my main issue is that it's all brown in brown. suffocating
<manzur> thorwil: it does not have to be like this
<manzur> but ubuntu web site
<manzur> cuold be more intelligent
<manzur> i mean
<knome> it is getting a redesign
<manzur> what do we get nowadays
<manzur> a simple web site
<manzur> with pictures and links
<thorwil> simple is good
<knome> have you heard of the KISS ideology?
<manzur> no
<knome> "keep it simple stupid"
<lianimator> keep it simple stupid..
<knome> works for most occasions
<knome> if not all
<manzur> but, excuse me
<manzur> it looks like a web site design by a kid
<manzur> this is what i mean
<manzur> i mean ubuntu must have professional designers
<knome> if we like it...
<thorwil> manzur: i don't think the current ubuntu website design is good. but i think it's better than that mockup
<manzur> thorwil: that's why i said it ddoes not have to be like so
<manzur> i mean check this
<manzur> https://usshop.ubuntu.com/category.php?catid=3
<manzur> ubuntu cd/dvd covers
<manzur> they look terrible
<manzur> for me
<manzur> i mean
<manzur> what do ya think
<manzur> ?
<thorwil> manzur: note that there is at most a single person in this channel who might get to have something to do with the official web-design
<manzur> thorwil: yes, and excuse me if i am rude
<manzur> really
<thorwil> manzur: yes, terrible
<manzur> i just have to say it
<manzur> what for?
<thorwil> manzur: no worries
<manzur> to be better
<thorwil> manzur: you are operating under some wrong assumptions
<manzur> there are a lot of people out there
<manzur> who are designres
<manzur> *
<manzur> and they see how pretty ubuntu looks
<manzur> to use it
<manzur> so we got to be the best as os
<manzur> and design
<manzur> i mean i like suse design
<manzur> so not u
<manzur> ?
<manzur> it looks pro
<manzur> and simple
<manzur> "simple"
<manzur> but good
<manzur> and pro
<knome> manzur, not all of us are in a situation that we could do the webdesign and just get it uploaded to the main site
<thorwil> manzur: what are you trying to achieve here and who do you think you are talking to right now?
<manzur> thorwil: both of u
<manzur> knome: i know that
<manzur> but
<thorwil> knome: in fact nobody here is, with only 1 person where i could see doubt
<manzur> we should post an idea
<manzur> in brainstorm
<knome> manzur, you're welcome.
<manzur> can u help me?
<manzur> are u agree
<manzur> ?
<manzur> do u agree
<manzur> ?
<manzur> *
<thorwil> manzur: canonical recently hired a strategical lead of design. so you can expect things to change and the web presence might be the first
<manzur> thorwil: how do u know that
<manzur> ?
<manzur> where can i find that new
<manzur> ?
<thorwil> right now trying to push for changes from outside of canonical is a waste of time
<thorwil> manzur: there was a job posting. and a blog post from mark shuttleworth. there is an video interview with the new guy
<thorwil> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IcFCVHJFNTU&feature=channel_page
<thorwil> manzur: btw, doing research is an important, but often overlooked part of doing design ;)
<manzur> excuse me i was at lunch
<manzur> jajaja
<manzur> thorwil: can u tell me what he says
<manzur> ?
<thorwil> no
<manzur> i mean i am not from usa, i am from colombia
<manzur> i am not that good in english
<_MMA_> Because only the US has English as it's national language. :P
<_MMA_> luisbg: Ping
<thorwil> _MMA_: i though some people would be delighted if the US had English as national language? :)
<_MMA_> luisbg: Can you summarize Julian's video in Spanish for manzur? Â¿por favor? (if you're around)
<_MMA_> thorwil: That was sarcasm if you didn't get it. :)
<thorwil> hi dilomo
<dilomo> hi :) how are you
<thorwil> alright and you?
<dilomo> Fine, I've been very busy these days with work
<dilomo> I just read your email on the list and I agree with you
<thorwil> how boring :)
<dilomo> :) I made the necessary changes to the tabs
<dilomo> btw do you know a program that uses
<dilomo> tabs aligned to the left or right?
<thorwil> dilomo: ardour uses tabs on the right. but it uses a custom theme
<dilomo> ok I'll mis them then (will remain the old style from 0.6.2)
<thorwil> i guess vertical tabs automatically cause a technical impression such that any GTK app would have to fear to turn into a Qt/KDE one
<dilomo> :D good argument
<dilomo> How do you find the connection between menubar and toolbars on this picture:
<dilomo> http://www.piccdrop.com/images/1229460199.png
<thorwil>  connection between menubar and toolbars?
<dilomo> hint: I have added small highlight above the dark line
<dilomo> but I'm not sure if it's a good idea
<thorwil> highlight above the dark line?
<thorwil> maybe my eyes are tired :/
<dilomo> it is veeery subtle
<dilomo> it represent AO from the light contents below
<thorwil> dilomo: well, i can say that the title/menu bar now appears to be on the same level as the rest of the window
<thorwil> dilomo: can you do something about the very narrow gap between the active chat tab and the menubar? it should be zero or larger, i'd say
<dilomo> I can but it looks as dropped shadow from the menubar
<dilomo> if I make it larger then the space for text will be small
<dilomo> I think that tabs should not be use like they are in pidgin
<dilomo> everywhere else there is a lot of space for them
<thorwil> only briefly tried to use pidgin for irc. then went back to xchat
<dilomo> I wil try it too
<dilomo> thorwil: do you have any ideas what should be the material of the buttons in metacity
<dilomo> I have two suggestions:
<dilomo> - Glossy black plastic
<dilomo> - Metal (like mac)
<thorwil> dilomo: Acrylnitril-Butadien-Styrol
<thorwil> ;)
<dilomo> what is this :)
<dilomo> a joke, I was pretty good at Chemistry at Highschool
<thorwil> dilomo: ABS is a thermoplast often used for encasings
<thorwil> actually i should say, Acrylonitrile butadiene styrene
<thorwil> -styrol was the german version
<thorwil> dilomo: it's quite shock-proof and can be colored easily
<dilomo> :D
<dilomo> We have a totally different name fo this in my country
<thorwil> dilomo: i think you should consider the emotional side, the impression the buttons should give the user
<dilomo> so my suggestion is smth like this ABS coloured inblack
<dilomo> these buttons are the most difficult part of all
<dilomo> in several major releases I can't find the proper shape and color
<thorwil> dilomo: both glossy plastic and metal looks are a bit overused and not that great an idea if you imagine them as real
<dilomo> so what do you suggest? Carbon
<_MMA_> NO!
<_MMA_>  :)
<thorwil> http://img.alibaba.com/photo/11058131/Egyptian_Hand_Made_Ceramic_Dinner_Set.jpg
<dilomo> thorwil: wow
<_MMA_> Niiiiiiice colors there.
<thorwil> http://www.conranusa.com/images/default/us/catalogue/large/22318.jpg
<dilomo> red?! or porcelain
<thorwil> dilomo: it's the surface, not the color i'm after
<dilomo> ok I got it
<thorwil> http://www.highpointpigeonsupplies.com/images/clay_iww9.jpg
<_MMA_> Man. I think that would be tricky.
<dilomo> but this theme looks synthetic or made of some kind of mate plastic and on top of all
<dilomo> ceramic buttons
<thorwil> dilomo: of course, you should extend that to the title/menu bar, then
<thorwil> http://www.naturalgems.de/images/edelstein_jade_oval.jpg
<thorwil> http://www.hpwt.de/Mineralien/Jade.jpg
<dilomo> the last ones is interesting
<thorwil> dilomo: hmm, good point. i got carried away by my thoughts of what ubuntu should mean and what kind of materials and surfaces are warm, inviting, classy
<dilomo> I was thinking of making the active buttons glassy and the inactive mate
<dilomo> but wouldn't it be too much like vista?
<thorwil> dilomo: if you want to stay synthetic, consider silicone, waxy rubber
 * _MMA_ is gonna writs a Compiz plugin that gives every window a Web2.0 reflection. :P
<thorwil> dilomo: looking for "silicone" reference images is great fun :)
<dilomo> I have a glassy progressbar so I can use glass
<dilomo> yes the silicon is fun :)
<dilomo> _MMA_:  :)
<thorwil> be mindful of the e at the end
<thorwil> gotta run, cya!
<_MMA_> later
<dilomo> bye
<dilomo> http://mineral.galleries.com/minerals/elements/silicon/silicon.jpg that's it
<_MMA_> That's interesting.
<_MMA_> I think the clay thing is spot-on for Ubuntu though.
<dilomo> yes but would not match New Wave very much
<_MMA_> Yeah. I'm just talking generally.
<dilomo> yeah for another theme it would be perfect match especially if there are more accents with ceramics
<_MMA_> dilomo: I like how you have the bottom frame go into the, what do we call that? "Resize handle"?
<_MMA_> I'd like to do that for the Studio theme.
<dilomo> where exactly are you looking at
<_MMA_> Nautilus: http://www.piccdrop.com/images/1229460199.png
<dilomo> ahh you mean the Frame (shadow etched out)
<_MMA_> sure
<dilomo> ok go ahead and do it
<_MMA_> It's just an idea. :) I either want a massive change to the look of Studio or wanna leave it as-is.
<dilomo> I think you should go for big but slow change
<_MMA_> Naa... I like to jolt/shock people. :P But really atm it just comes down to time.
<_MMA_> I gotta find the time to do the changes or someone really dedicated to do it.
<_MMA_> They are really hard to find.
<dilomo> thats true
<dilomo> I would have done it but I have a lot of work and that will not change anytime soon
<dilomo> I barely find time to work on new wave
<_MMA_> It's funny because Studio is wide open to anyone with vision and the will to follow through. Nobody seems to be able to take it on. I figured the freedom I would give would be appealing to *someone*. :)
<dilomo> :)
<dilomo> time will tell
<dilomo> I have to run
<dilomo> cya
<_MMA_> later
#ubuntu-artwork 2008-12-17
 * tretle ponders why rhythmbox's toolbar doesnt apply the same theme settings as epiphany and nautilus's tool bars
<tretle> for dust theme that is
<_MMA_> Most likely because Rhythmbox does something different.
<kwwii> anyone done any work on sound themes?
<robsta> hi thorwil
<thorwil> hi robsta!
 * _MMA_ waves
<robsta> hey metal
<luisbg> kwwii, oooh you know the french way of reading irc
<luisbg> kwwii, Cory has done work in sound themes, we currently have one in Studio because he likes it :P
<_MMA_> luisbg: He went over to FreeDesktop and got info.
<luisbg> ahhh
<luisbg> you were no help? :P
<kwwii> luisbg: I thought I knew all about the sound package and then luke changed everything shortly before the intrepid release
<kwwii> I have spent the day reading up on it all and documenting it
<luisbg> kwwii, and Luke is hiding now :P
<kwwii> luisbg: hehe, I was thinking the same thing earlier when I was looking for him :)
<luisbg> smart guy, knows when to go MIA
<luisbg> are you using your GPS also back in Germany? need the soothing voice while you drive now to feel comfortable?
<kwwii> luisbg: actually, I have never used it in Germany
<kwwii> I know my way around Germany :)
<luisbg> kwwii, turn right, stay left...... turn RIGHT!
<kwwii> luisbg: *exactly*
<luisbg> :)
<kwwii> time to get the kid dinner
<kwwii> bbl
<luisbg> kwwii, :)
<thorwil> http://blog.dustinkirkland.com/2008/12/rudolph-red-nosed-ibex.html
<kwwii> oh boy, that had to happen didn't it
<thorwil> i miss rsc
<kwwii> yeah, no doubt
<kwwii> I wonder what he is up to
<thorwil> he might have a good job and a life, in contrast to me :)
<kwwii> lol
<_MMA_> rsc was on the other day.
<kwwii> say hi for me if you see him :-)
<kwwii> _MMA_: wanna proof read something for me?
<_MMA_> sure
#ubuntu-artwork 2008-12-18
 * _MMA_ waves.
<kwwii> hey man
<_MMA_> kwwii: Bug squishin' this mornin' I see.
<kwwii> yepp
<_MMA_> bbl
<dilomo> thorwil: hi
<thorwil> hi dilomo
<dilomo> the metacity buttons are driving me crazy :)
<dilomo> can't make them
<thorwil> dilomo: good. maybe something brilliant will be born out of your craziness! ;)
<dilomo> :D I hope so
<dilomo> what do you think:
<dilomo> - 3 separate buttons or
<dilomo> - big one (like vista)
<dilomo> anybody else is welcomed to share its opinion
<thorwil> dilomo: i think you should work out the Why, and the What-to-achieve first
<dilomo> well Why?
<dilomo> because the 3 buttons look old
<dilomo> but are functional and the one big is trendy and will match the theme better (mayber)
<dilomo> I want to achieve modern look but to keep or improve the functionality of the buttons (e.g. the X is bigger)
<thorwil> dilomo: well, regarding general usability, you should large, clearly defined target areas. also the most clear icons possible. the standard trio isn't exactly self-explanatory, but it is well known
<thorwil> dilomo: then it might be good to have some separation between minimize/maximize and close, as they operate on different levels and only Close is "risky"
<dilomo> hmm interesting idea
<dilomo> I just got a glimmer
<dilomo> thorwil: but there is one problem: when you turn on your compiz effects it adds more buttons to every window thus making some of them with close and maximize only. Then the theme will look unfinished. For reference you can see the current one.
<thorwil> dilomo: that's new to me
<dilomo> So henerally there are four main cases: 1. The three buttons 2. Only close 3. Only close on toolwindows 4.Close and minimize. Metacity is made to work with these types and my theme handles them
 * thorwil has custom compiz settings and only the usual 3 buttons
<dilomo> but when compoziting is enabled then more butons are added for examble on messageboxes where they are not needed at all.
<dilomo> thorwil: wait a while to make scetches and upload them
<dilomo> meanwhile what do you associate circle and square with and why?
<thorwil> circle? head, ball, sun, moon, boobs. square: architecture
<kwwii> thorwil said boobs
<kwwii> :p
<thorwil> kwwii said boobs ;p
<kwwii> hehe
<kwwii> just 'cause you said it first :)
<dilomo> :) what's up kwwii
<kwwii> dilomo: spent the day hunting down bugs
<kwwii> fixed three and got mroe info on some others
<kwwii> icon theme maintainence has nothing to do with fun
<dilomo> :) that's true
<dilomo> btw in the near future I will ship a new version of New Wave
<dilomo> if you want it to be exclusively for Ubuntu users firs before others tell me to drop you a message when it's done so you could upload it to the repos
<Nece228> maybe i dont need to say that, but we all are bored of flat themes
<dilomo> thorwil: http://www.piccdrop.com/images/1229616541.jpg the quick sketches
<dilomo> Niece228: an you bew more specific?
<dilomo> Nece228: sorry I misspelled your name
<Nece228> dilomo: no problem
<Nece228> dilomo: i mean look at clearlooks theme
<Nece228> also ubuntu dust theme is doing great job because it has more gradients
<kwwii> dilomo: definitely, I need to update dust as well
<thorwil> dilomo: perhaps you could draw the close button as part of the titlebar (taking full hight, touching the right edge) and the other buttons ... smaller, as buttons
<thorwil> yeah, more gradients. and cowbell!
<dilomo> Nece228: have you seen the lates development screens from New Wave
<Nece228> thorwil: i know you hate me, but are you russian?
<Nece228> dilomo: no
<dilomo> Nece228: no I'm bulgarian
<thorwil> Nece228: no and no
<dilomo> Nece228: why should I hate you
<Nece228> thorwil: it looks like in your picture you writing in cyrillic
<Nece228> dilomo: hehe, i talked to thorwil
<Nece228> dilomo: but i would like to see latest development screens
<thorwil> Nece228: and you mistook dilomo's picture for mine, apparently
<Nece228> thorwil: oops, sorry
<dilomo> thorwil: I have done this in the current version. The X is bigger but it looks like a key.
<Nece228> dilomo: but im not sure, oxygen style looks kinda flat but its stylish
<dilomo> Nece228: sure here we go:
<dilomo> http://www.piccdrop.com/images/1229617086.png
<thorwil> dilomo: not at all what i mean
<dilomo> the metacity now relflects active inactive state and is much better to use and look at
<dilomo> thorwil: you imagined the x go to the right border right?
<Nece228> dilomo: unique and professional
<thorwil> dilomo: yes. like it would be a cut-out of the titlebar. as button, not a hole
<dilomo> Nece228: thanks
<Nece228> dilomo: especcialy i like that menubar (or how its called) and window borders colors are same
<dilomo> thorwil: can you sketch it?
<dilomo> Nece228: How do you think I could improve the metacity buttons?
<Nece228> dilomo: i think its perfect now for me
<zniavre> bonjour
<zniavre> please how to set menu buttons with apps icon ?
<zniavre> for metacity *
<dilomo> zniavre: what do you mean?
<thorwil> dilomo: sure
<zniavre> dilomo:  just saw in your screenshot > on the left side it's menu buttons but it display application icon , am i wrong ?
<dilomo> ahhh this. hmm I don't actually know (don't remember). You can check it out on the current version of the theme:
<dilomo> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Incoming/New%20Wave
<Nece228> dilomo: by the way nice photo in your screensho
<dilomo> Nece228: thanks. It is of a church in the capital of Bulgaria
<zniavre> ok thank you
 * dilomo is wondering what is thorwil "cooking" for the sketch
<thorwil> dilomo: http://www.piccdrop.com/images/1229618706.png
<thorwil> dilomo: not quite right as is, just shows the idea
<dilomo> interesting :) Maybe just align the other buttons' bottom to the X's bottom
<dilomo> So you suggest thet there is no "Fill" only ethced in borders of the buttons
<dilomo> this might turn ot to be very cool when done. I'm starting the work on it ;)
<thorwil> dilomo: not necessarily. it's only about the button layout
<dilomo> this could be don with circles respectively
<dilomo> but squares with round angles look better, more traditional
<Nece228> dilomo: you are catholic that you are making photos of churches?
<dilomo> Nece228: i'm christian
<Nece228> dilomo: cool, just like me :)
<dilomo> and have to make photos for a project. btw where are you from Nece228
<Nece228> dilomo: lithuania
<Nece228> dilomo: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithuania
<dilomo> cool :) you ghave interesting rural architecture
<dilomo> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bulgaria
<Nece228> dilomo: i heard about bulgaria
<dilomo> ok just posted it to see in the religion section the same churck
<dilomo> church*
<Nece228> dilomo: lithuania's religion is catholiv
<Nece228> dilomo: i actually hate catholics
<dilomo> yes I thought so but did not know how to express the  "Orthodox Church" term
<dilomo> Nece228: why so?
<Nece228> dilomo: there are many reasons
<Nece228> dilomo: bible wrote line like you cant try to picture god's photo
<Nece228> dilomo: look how many jesus pictures there are
<Nece228> dilomo: all these photos sucks
<Nece228> dilomo: its more likely a hippie than a jesus
<dilomo> Nece228: yes there are but all the icons in the ortodox churches express the same God
<dilomo> Nece228: well the details may not be the same but the inspiration is
<Nece228> dilomo: well but we must agree with everythink what is writed in bible
<Nece228> dilomo: if anyone who will add or remove somethink to bible, will burn in hell
<Nece228> dilomo: read the end lines in new testament
<Nece228> dilomo: catholics added so much to bible
<Nece228> dilomo: anyway i dont think its right channel to talk about religion
<dilomo> Nece228: :) why then you don't change your religion?
<dilomo> Nece228: me too
<Nece228> dilomo: well im a real christian, i agree with everythink what is in bible
<thorwil> Nece228: you can only claim that if you didn't read it
<Nece228> dilomo: what do you mean by this?
<dilomo> Nece228: what?
<knome> actually there was some ubuntu rules which didn't permit talking about religion.
<Nece228> knome: yeah
 * dilomo shuts up
<knome> maybe you can set up #somechannelwhereyoucantalkaboutreligion
<Nece228> dilomo: i mean your last post, you can still pm me
<Nece228> knome: we are apologising
<knome> np. i personally am not distracted by this, but i want to obey the rules ;)
<Nece228> i think theres already channel called #christian
<knome> sure. but if you want to talk about cross-religiously
<knome> *-about
<Nece228> yes this channel works
<Nece228> thorwil: i read it, im a philosopher
<Nece228> thorwil: or should i say troll-philosopher :)
<thorwil> Nece228: it is full of contradictions. you brought up the topic that doesn't belong here and i will not say any more single word about it
<darkmatter> you mean troll-village-idiot-philosopher, right? :D
<Nece228> darkmatter: sorry, but i know about science more than you
<Nece228> darkmatter: but i dont care really what you say :D
<knome> ok boys, stop flaming.
<darkmatter> my former professors would disagree. Now that that is a done arguement /ignore dumbass troll
<dilomo> This is supposed to be artwork channel
<darkmatter> tell that to the troll I put on ignore, or better yet, someone op n kick him :)
<darkmatter> then we can all return to the artwork :D
<thorwil> ack
 * thorwil -> dinner
 * dilomo eating and wathicng TV
<darkmatter> I loath tv (well, most of it) I prefer to eat and read my new feeds
<SealV> I dont like the yellow background for the text that is in black.
<dilomo> I'm back
<thorwil> I like the black text for the background that is in yellow
<dilomo> SealV: what are you talking about
<SealV> http://same-gfx.deviantart.com/art/screenflow-portfolio-81710478
<SealV> manzur posted it
<dilomo> I like it
<thorwil> where's the yellow there?
<dilomo> thorwil: I tried to the variant you proposed but it is not possible because the metacity eats my corners if I push the image too right. Here's another idea I got:
<dilomo> http://www.piccdrop.com/images/1229628437.png
<SealV> http://ebupof.deviantart.com/art/Ubuntu-website-84984292
<SealV> wrong link, meant the yellow in there
<_MMA_> dilomo: I like those buttons.
<SealV> wait: is the ff window and the players windows button the same? I like the key like shape of the ff window as well
<thorwil> SealV: oh, that. yes, someone ran deep into the coffee-grey-brown trap there
<dilomo> _MMA_: thanks but doesn't the X button look to vertica and thus beaing alien to the titlebar
<thorwil> dilomo: no. but you could make it a little wider
<dilomo> SealV: the key shape is the old metacity of New Wave and the player is the new WIP
<thorwil> dilomo: how about turning the - and ^ into buttons of the same shapes?
<_MMA_> dilomo: You mean the top of the button frame isn't supposed to touch of the titlebar?
<thorwil> _MMA_: it is. original idea was http://www.piccdrop.com/images/1229618706.png
<_MMA_> Ahh...
<dilomo> thorwil: It is WIP so I am not till there yet :)
<dilomo> the tricky thing is with the other two buttons
<dilomo> because if I make them joined then they will not look good in all applications but if I make themseparate they will look too clumsy. However I will try both variants
<_MMA_> dilomo: What apps mess up when they are joined?
<_MMA_> Like apps that only use 1 or 2 buttons?
<dilomo> _MMA_: exactly. The worse thing is when you turn on comizp and it adss additional button combinations like max/close that make no sense
<_MMA_> dilomo: I'm sure Metacity lets you add sections for that case.
<_MMA_> Hmm... Wait. That might be for "tool" windows I'm thinking of. In any case, I would still be surprised if there wasn't a way to do it.
<dilomo> _MMA_: Yes you could specify different images for tool and dialog windows but as far as I know you could not do so for combination of buttons.
<dilomo> Here are the latest changes but they don't look as cool as expected imo:
<dilomo> http://www.piccdrop.com/images/1229632192.png
<_MMA_> dilomo: Maybe move things closer to the top of the titlebar?
<dilomo> hmm it will look like vista then
<dilomo> thorwil: any ideas
<thorwil> no, empty
<dilomo> I somehow should decrease the "heavy" effect of these buttons
<_MMA_> dilomo: Well I wouldn't exactly stray away from the idea. I think it can work fine as long as you stay away from the coloring they use.
<_MMA_> Of maybe something like the Fedora metacity?
<dilomo> _MMA_: theirs is more lightwieght. The lines are less and thinner. The X button was cool by itself but the other two are way too much in the "glass"
<dilomo> PRobably it would be good to make them with horizontal look to be opposite of the vertical X
<dilomo> the thing is that I don't clearly know what I want the final product to look like and that is stopping me right now. This metacity looks good:
<dilomo> http://linux.softpedia.com/screenshots/Gaia-Siberia-Metacity_1.jpg
<_MMA_> dilomo: Interesting.
<thorwil> bras as wm icons??
<dilomo> wm?
<thorwil> window-manager
<thorwil> good night!
<dilomo> bye
<dilomo> I have to run too
<dilomo> cya
<kwwii> oh well, night
#ubuntu-artwork 2008-12-19
<dilomo> thorwil: here's what I did today. What do you think?
<dilomo> http://www.piccdrop.com/images/1229697487.png
<thorwil> dilomo: good. the edges seem a little hard, though
<dilomo> the round edges or the lines that are etched in
<dilomo> I used a top-bottom gradient for the black so that it look more 3D
<thorwil> both
<dilomo> thorwil: how can I fix this? Currently I use Inkscape to draw the buttons at 48x48px and outpu them at 24x24px. If I use 100 dpi the result is the same.
<thorwil> 100 dpi is your native resolution?
<thorwil> anyway, exporting to anything but 1:1 can't be good
<dilomo> what do you mean by native res
<thorwil> the dpi or your screen
<thorwil> here, inkscape assumes it's 90 dpi
<thorwil> if you select a rectangle that is 100 px wide, the dpi in the export dialog has to be adjusted such that the export will also be 100 px wide
<dilomo> the dpi is 96 but for the fonts I think. For the screen ... should be the same or 90 as you suggested.
<dilomo> then if I have 24px image I shiuld use 24px?
<dilomo> 24dpi*
<thorwil> no
<dilomo> oh my mistake
<thorwil> dilomo: draw a rectangle, make it 100px wide
<thorwil> make sure it is selected, hit ctrl-shift-e
<_MMA_> thorwil: I just exported a 100x100 square just fine @ 90dpi.
<_MMA_> Came out 100x100
<thorwil> _MMA_: i guess 90dpi is a fixed inkscape assumption
<thorwil> which means that 100 dpi will lead to ... crap :)
<dilomo> I did it and my inkscape is exporting at 57px = 51 dpi
<thorwil> dilomo: with dpi at what?
<dilomo> why crap
<_MMA_> Im sure there's a reason. I usually save things at 72dpi but it messes up the res. I should ask Ted or Bryce about this.
<dilomo> most of the images of new wave are done at 45doi
<dilomo> dpi*
<dilomo> and the largest and more complex things are exported at 90dpi
<thorwil> dilomo: if you have a 1px strong line, it will only result in a sharp 1 px line with a 1:1 resolution
<dilomo> yes
<thorwil> so make sure on export that 100 px in the drawing result in 100 px!
<dilomo> I did the test and it does it correctly
<dilomo>  thorwil: but probably I should change the resolution of the drawing in incscape. My mistake was that I manually adjusted the height of the drawing to 24px and the dpi goes to 51. So If I want 24px output I should draw in 24x24px page?
<thorwil> dilomo: page size doesn't matter
<dilomo> but at 90dpi the X button has the same rough edges
<thorwil> *shrug*
<dilomo> so you bot like the form and the position of the buttons. I can smooth them in gimp
<dilomo> bye
<dilomo> thorwil: hi
<thorwil> dilomo: welcome back
<dilomo> thorwil: I've made the prelight :
<dilomo> http://www.piccdrop.com/images/1229705418.png
<dilomo> and the pressed states of the X button:
<dilomo> http://www.piccdrop.com/images/1229705549.png
<thorwil> dilomo: needs a little bleed and should perhaps include the symbol
<dilomo> you mean brighter red?
<thorwil> dilomo: maybe a little. what i actually meant was a little bit of red on the rounded edge
<dilomo> Aham you mean using AO
<thorwil> not quite
<thorwil> dilomo: if you imagine this as physical object, there are 2 different effects that come to mind
<thorwil> dilomo: the first would be bounced light that shines on the rounded edge
<thorwil> dilomo: the other is the "aura" that light can have if the eye or a camera can't quite handle it
<dilomo> yeah but thea aura is not possible with these images I made
<dilomo> so I guess the first thing is the only option
<thorwil> http://www.krunker.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/01/WindowsLiveWriter/CustomizedbacklitkeyswiththeLuxiiumLUXEE_F339/Luxeed_3_jpg%5B2%5D1.jpg
<thorwil> http://www.orangeinks.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/01/mac2.JPG
<thorwil> dilomo: http://farm1.static.flickr.com/164/427776101_144ac52117.jpg?v=0
<dilomo> that's interesting but a red X would be too much. I like the apple keyboard but making everything with white glow is not very good
<thorwil> dilomo: look beyond the color or lack of it. you see the effect i mentioned :)
<dilomo> thorwil: I understand it but how is the X going to look when the button is pressed
<thorwil> dilomo: a little bit brighter
<dilomo> on the image I showed the light is coming from above the button not below
<thorwil> dilomo: the red is magic then?
<dilomo> :D
<dilomo> I think that the X should remain white but with red glow
<dilomo> thorwil:  btw wouldn't it be better if I make it simplier. Just make the prelight lighter but wit the same etched in effect.
<thorwil> dilomo: no, you should have singing angels fly around the button!!
<dilomo> c'mon man why are you joking?
<thorwil> dilomo: what are you doing for normal buttons?
<dilomo> thorwil: nothing. What should I be doing.
<dilomo> they look like the max/min on the picture I showed
<thorwil> dilomo: consider to do the same for prelight for both normal and wm buttons
<dilomo> I will do them as already started. That's final. These buttons are not like the normal buttons thus they should differ
<dilomo> bbl
<tretle> I read somewhere that packagekit would be the default for kubuntu jaunty, will it be the default for ubuntu jaunty too?
<_MMA_> tretle: #ubuntu+1 would be a better channel to ask in.
<tretle> jeeze thought I posted that in #ubuntu+1 lol :D
<_MMA_> :P
<tretle> would rock if it did become default though, one of my favorite features of packagekit is packagekit-gstreamer which allows any gstreamer app to notify, search and install codecs without having to patch the actual app.. works with banshee, firefox, rhythmbox totem etc.
<tretle> thuough banshee wont run properly unless you have gstreamer-good,bad and ugly but thats just a dependency issue
<_MMA_> Cool GIMP brushes. http://hawksmont.com/blog/category/graphic_design/resources/gimp_brushes
#ubuntu-artwork 2008-12-20
<dilomo> _MMA_: thanks
<_MMA_> np
<dilomo> _MMA_: some people say they are too dirty or that the X should be of the same height
<dilomo> _MMA_: do you agree?
<_MMA_> I'm unsure. I kinda like it being different.
<_MMA_> Personally, I try to be odd/different where I can. :)
<dilomo> :) me too but most of the ppl don't undertsand me
<_MMA_> Hell with them. ;)
<_MMA_> Do *your* own thing.
<dilomo> btw do you want to test the theme to tell me more about how it feels on prelight
<_MMA_> Sure.
<dilomo> I have to upload it somewher or send it to your email
<dilomo> ?
<_MMA_> email is fine
<dilomo> which one should I use? the ubuntu one?
<_MMA_> Yep
<dilomo> sent
<_MMA_> k
<dilomo> _MMA_: after you test the them you may not like the metacity because the prelight state is somehow different. You will see ...
<_MMA_> ok. I'm checkin' email now.
<dilomo> thorwil: what about you? What do you think?
<_MMA_> dilomo: Odd. The theme doesn't just drag n' drop into the theme manager.
<dilomo> _MMA_: I don't know what is doing this. I packed the folder.
<_MMA_> No. Im sorry. Its a conflict with existing theme.
<_MMA_> dilomo: Yeah. I don't know about the pre-light. And can the "Maximize" button be centered between the "Close" and "Minimize"?
<_MMA_> dilomo: And "Shade" the window. Underneath your buttons, but around the outer frame, the 1px black outline is missing.
<_MMA_> "Shade" without Compiz on.
<dilomo> I'm not using compiz
<dilomo> and on the screenshot I have the outline
<dilomo> http://www.piccdrop.com/images/1229782040.png
<dilomo> _MMA_:  btw what is this "Shade" there is some setting for shade in the xml file but I don't know what is shade so I don't change them
<_MMA_> Yes. The outline is only missing on shade. When you double-click on the titlebar, it "rolls up" instead of maximizes.
<dilomo> _MMA_: nope on my ubuntu it maximizes
<_MMA_> Its a switch.
<dilomo> where?
<_MMA_> gconf: /apps/metacity/general/action_double_click_titlebar: toggle_shade
<_MMA_> But there's a GUI setting somewhere.
<_MMA_> System->Preferences->Windows
<dilomo> ok I'll fix this but why you think I should move the max button right
<_MMA_> Like I said above, to "center it". Because the space between Maximize and Close is so small I think it doesn't work.
<_MMA_> So I would personally even up the spacing.
<dilomo> but if I even it up then I should shorten the button too
<_MMA_> Why? Just move the Maximize button to the right a bit. Or minimize to the left.
<dilomo> _MMA_: the thing is I can't. If I adjust the x-axis of the image it doesn't move
<_MMA_> Hmm... Odd.
<_MMA_> I'll look at it.
<dilomo> sorry my mistake. I did it but
<dilomo> the image is trimmed
<_MMA_> I bet there's something clipping it.
<dilomo> _MMA_: I'm using a gradien that's drawn from metacity but haven't thought that it might clip this
<_MMA_> dilomo: Try this gtkrc: http://paste.ubuntu.com/89269
<_MMA_> Im still playing with the Metacity.
<dilomo> what's new with the gtkrc?
<_MMA_> That gtkrc tightens up the menu items and removes the scroolbar buttons. Just an idea.
<_MMA_> :P
<_MMA_> Or try lines 57 and 60 set to = 1.
<dilomo> _MMA_: interesting about the scroll but many ppl would not understand "what's going on". You can make a different non-standart version of new wave if you wish ;)
<_MMA_> Why wouldn't they? :) I tend to think the arrows are redundant. And try try lines 57 and 60 set to = 1. That puts them together.
<_MMA_> Personally, I try to present something different but try to keep functionality. Removing the arrows doesn't take the ability to scroll.
<dilomo> that's true indeed and I like that "outting together" of the arrows
<thorwil> dilomo: was away and going again just now :}
<_MMA_> Yeah. I'm playing with the idea of removing the arrows in Studio's theme. At the very least I'll put them together.
<dilomo> _MMA_: but there are programs that do what they want like FF
<_MMA_> dilomo: Sure, but it respects this arrow option.
<_MMA_> I've been testing the no arrows with Studio and had no issue so far.
<dilomo> hmm I just tested it with new wave and it didn't worked in FF
<_MMA_> Did you restart FF?
<_MMA_> Works fine here.
<dilomo> evidently no :).  I have forgotten one window in the next workspace
<_MMA_> :P
<_MMA_> At the very least, putting the arrows together is nice because it puts them all within close proximity of each other. All in the one corner.
<dilomo> yes true.
<_MMA_> And I use the "gtk-icon-sizes = "panel-menu=22,22"" to tighten up the menu in Studio because we tend to have alot of menu items and it helps alot on smaller screens. And I generally think it looks better. The GNOME defaults are a bit big IMO.
<dilomo> Yes. They are bit bigger. I may consider this and make the menus thicker
<_MMA_> "Thicker" or thinner? :)
<dilomo> I have to go skating on ice (how is this exactly in English)
<dilomo> thinner :)
<_MMA_> :)0
<_MMA_> I would say: "I'm going ice skating."
<dilomo> nice :), see ya
<dilomo> _MMA_: I'm back
<dilomo> Do you know what causes this message from twf: GtkSpinButton: setting an adjustment with non-zero page size is deprecated
<_MMA_> No, but I've seen that come up in other apps also. I think it's a GTK thing.
<dilomo> But it was not showing in the prev version and I haven't changes the spin buttons at all. That's strange. Did you succeed in moveing the button in the metacity I sent you?
<_MMA_> I got wrapped up in things at home.
<_MMA_> I'm also about to head off for the rest of the day. Gotta spend time with the family. ;)
<dilomo> sure. family first
<dilomo> just to ask you if I want to keep the empty space between the X and the rest how much should I increase it?
<_MMA_> I don't understand what you mean.
<_MMA_> A mockup would help. :)
<dilomo> sec
<_MMA_> k
<dilomo> look at the focused window:http://www.piccdrop.com/images/1229805506.png
<_MMA_> k
<lucazade> dilomo, new metacity buttons are cool!
<lucazade> ;)
<_MMA_> dilomo: Ok. So you want to add *more* space. I'd have to tinker. I think there was a limit to how far you could push it but that might not apply to pixmap.
<dilomo> lucazade: thanks but I have a problem with usability - most of the ppl I have sent the theme to don't like the prelight state
<lucazade> i'll try it..
<dilomo> _MMA_: I think there is some limit but I may experiment
<dilomo> lucazade: do you have email and I'll send it to you
<lucazade> luca.forina@gmail.com
<dilomo> lucazade: sent
<lucazade> received tnx
<dilomo> btw do you guys think that the theme should be tested by more ppl. I can write to the mailing list ...
<lucazade> yes it maybe a chance
<lucazade> may be
<lucazade> :-/
<dilomo>  lucazade: what is it so bad?
<lucazade> my english is bad.. still trying the theme
<lucazade> well i like this more than previous releases.. still too much contrast for my tastes. the close X button of metacity lacks right border?!
<thorwil> dilomo: with the spacing on the front window on http://www.piccdrop.com/images/1229805506.png you are moving towards too much. at some point the width taken for the buttons becomes a problem for narrow windows /that might have long titles)
<lucazade> ok it depends on font size of the titlebar
<dilomo> thorwil: this metacity is realy something that is tricky.
<dilomo> lucazade: you are missing right border?
<_MMA_> Can one set a font size in Metacity? Override the default?
<dilomo> _MMA_: don't know that
<lucazade> using 8.5px (my current settings) i can't see clearly the right border of x button
<lucazade> with bigger font is ok
<dilomo> I haven't thought of that :(
<_MMA_> dilomo: Design for default font size and maybe 1-2 points below/above. You can't cover every use case.
<dilomo> the bad thing is that the buttons get messy when used font less then 10
<_MMA_> On what? The titlebar buttons?
<lucazade> yep
<_MMA_> They are fine here using 9pt font.
<_MMA_> (on 2 machines)
<dilomo> no the two small ones get very close
<_MMA_> dilomo: That's what I was asking you about before. :)
<_MMA_> It looks intentional as it's that way with larger fonts as well.
<_MMA_> Only below 9pt does it get kinda odd.
<_MMA_> (borders touch)
<_MMA_> Here anyway.
<dilomo> probably that's because the buttons depend on the title. How can I change that
<_MMA_> dilomo: So to answer you earlier question, yes. Wider testing is good. :)
<_MMA_> dilomo: It might be a "padding" size.
<dilomo> _MMA_: so I should not increase the space between X/max but between min/max?
<dilomo> lucazade: how do you find the theme? Any bugs?
<lucazade> atm no
<lucazade> no bugs
<_MMA_> I would find a way to equal out the space and test down to 8pt font.
<_MMA_> (space between the buttons)
<dilomo> _MMA_: note that the X has a dozen of pixesl empty to make the gap
<_MMA_> Ahh...
<dilomo> lucazade: I don't want to look stupid but what atm stands for?
 * _MMA_ didnt know.
<lucazade> i think metacity corners should be less rounded like the rest of the theme
<lucazade> at the moment
<lucazade> i suppose :P
<dilomo> thanks
<dilomo> _MMA_: so I can make the X wider if I want to
<dilomo> I sent an email to everybody in the list to join testing
<dilomo> lucazade: so what are your suggestions for the buttons (except that they are unusable at 8.5px)
<lucazade> i like it, i would not change
<lucazade> using 10pt the buttons looks ok also the prelight state
<dilomo> yes but why are you using 8,5px
<lucazade> prefear smaller titlebar
<dilomo> ok
<dilomo> I have to
<dilomo> go bye
<lucazade> bye
#ubuntu-artwork 2008-12-21
<dilomo> thorwil: are you there man
<dilomo> however here's an image with a new arrows on the spinbuttons:
<dilomo> http://www.piccdrop.com/images/1229862278.png
<dilomo> any opinions?
<thorwil> dilomo: just now i am
<dilomo> thorwil: you are are infront of the pc now?
<thorwil> yes
<thorwil> dilomo: there could be more contrast between enabled and disabled arrows
<thorwil> dilomo: i think you should add a clearly visible right edge to v-scrollbars / bottom edge to h-scrollbars
<dilomo> why?
<thorwil> dilomo: it currently looks like the troughs fade out. it's not clear where they end. it should be clear where they end becasue they are target areas
<dilomo> btw here are the new prelight states:
<dilomo> http://www.piccdrop.com/images/1229864923.png
<dilomo> http://www.piccdrop.com/images/1229864935.png
<dilomo> thorwil: as far as the scrollbar why you need to see this area when you have scroll on the wheel and  scrollbar piece
<dilomo> that you can move. I prefer it this whay because it cuts many lines and makes the GUI cleaner
<thorwil> dilomo: becasue the trough allows page-wise stepping
<dilomo> yes but I haven't used that at all in y experience
<thorwil> dilomo: you don't need to ask anyone anything if you see yourself as sole user ;)
<thorwil> dilomo: i'd darken the red on the edges on the X button
<dilomo> thorwil: I am not the only user but this thim is sipposed to be different that the human or clearlooks and orineted towards artistic kind of ppl
<thorwil> dilomo: you don't have any other widget that fades out like that, right?
<dilomo> well no
<dilomo> but I have a lot of dropped shadows
<dilomo> thorwil: about the buttons - darken it like the orange on the min button?
<thorwil> yes
<dilomo> I'm doing it now. btw do the arrows on the spin need to be lighter?
<thorwil> dilomo: maybe make the disabled lighter
<thorwil> dilomo: enabled are so close to being just black, they might be as well. but that's ok
<dilomo> ok thanks
<dilomo> does anybody know how to fix this warning and what is causing it (it's not spinbutton):
<dilomo> GtkSpinButton: setting an adjustment with non-zero page size is deprecated
 * thorwil -> coffee
 * dilomo is out
#ubuntu-artwork 2009-12-14
<thorwil> http://create.freedesktop.org/wiki/Open_Color_Standard
<thorwil> ^ and a story about it: http://www.internetevolution.com/author.asp?section_id=867&doc_id=185725&
<darkmatter> http://img187.imageshack.us/img187/6047/screenshotks.png
<thorwil> http://www.manager-magazin.de/img/0,1020,154349,00.jpg
<mrmcq2u> will xsplash be removed completely for plymouth?
<mrmcq2u> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vbgLapRAloQ&feature=fvhr :D
<coz_> mrmcq2u,  I have no idea really
<mrmcq2u> wouldnt make sense to me to have xsplash with plymouth
<coz_> mrmcq2u,  I am not up on plymouth
<mrmcq2u> Hopefully once input configuration is decentralized from x things can start migrating over to wayland
<coz_> mrmcq2u,  wayland is a different fruit altogether
<coz_> :)
<coz_> mrmcq2u,  compiz would have to be rewritten
<mrmcq2u> I thought compiz was already being rewritten
<mrmcq2u> and mutter will support wayland
<coz_> mrmcq2u,  it is being ported to C++
<thorwil> wayland? but surely not susan wayland?
<mrmcq2u> lol
<coz_> wayland is not going to implimented any time soon I dont believe
<thorwil> would latex support for wayland make any sense?
<mrmcq2u> coz_ I would have said that some time ago but allot of what was holding it back has been rectified
<mrmcq2u> x does not do very much these days that is not duplicated from other elements
<coz_> mrmcq2u,  possiblly  I just dont the all of the specifics and how that is going to effect everything we have come to love ;)
<mrmcq2u> well you can run x within wayland
<coz_> being an "old phart"  as I am... I hate new things lol
<mrmcq2u> you can have it serve multiple x servers or just host an x app within wayland itself
<mrmcq2u> coz_ you should check out the latest talk on it - http://video.linuxfoundation.org/video/1571
<mrmcq2u> he is very very nervous when giving the talk though :D
<coz_> mrmcq2u,  sounds like he is struggling with english
<mrmcq2u> it offers loads of great things, it allows animations to run at the full refresh rate supported by the monitor while x scales down to 30fps.
<coz_> mrmcq2u,  I am interested but  I dont how long it is going to be before actual implimentation...I know of one fellow that tried installing what is available right now on ubuntu and gentoo with no  good results
 * mrmcq2u wonders whether intel hired him to work on it full time, he was previously working on it on his own time with red hat.
<coz_> mrmcq2u,  maybe because has more money perhaps?
<coz_> intel has more money
<coz_> and intel is very involved in linux
<coz_> actually most new stuff from intell is sent to certain projects for testing one being ubuntu before it is released
<mrmcq2u> well my theory is he is working on it full time, that would explain why the mutter guys are pushing for it to support wayland(clutter being an intel technology now)
 * mrmcq2u likes intel, too bad larrabee is postponed :( would have been great for linux :D
<mrmcq2u> ati are also cool,I don't buy from nvidia anymore due to them not really supporting oss properly. Its annoying having new technologies held back due to binary blobs :(
<coz_> mrmcq2u,  I never use ati   even though the driver is opensource ... I prefere nvidia hardware ...it is remarkable,, but the drivers are always still not refelcting the chips capabilites
<mrmcq2u> I switched to ati some time ago, the oss drivers are getting very good.. though its taken a while for them to get up to par on ubuntu.. I noticed that they seem to be better on fedora but I was told that its due to fedora not working upstream fast enough with display divers.. not sure the validity of that opinion is correct though.
<coz_> mrmcq2u,  well fedora is not surprising since it is more willing to deal with new experimental t hings than most other distributions
<coz_> especially with video
<mrmcq2u> kms and dri2 was enabled on fedora for example with my ati card two releases ago(and thats just when I checked, could have been enabled longer) yet ubuntu still doesnt enable them.
<coz_> mrmcq2u,  right because fedora is more "experimental" than ubuntu is
<coz_> or rather more willing to experiement
<mrmcq2u> yeah :D I suppose it was just slightly annoying because I wanted to learn clutter without switching my compositor off :(
<mrmcq2u> I assume it will be enabled this time though, they need kms for plymouth so that is a sign, hope dri2 gets switched on too though.
<coz_> mrmcq2u,  you can always check in #ubuntu+1
<coz_> see what they might be doing
<mrmcq2u> yeah
<mac_v> mrmcq2u: usplash will be replaced by plymouth , so it will be plymouth+xsplash
<mrmcq2u> whats the point in xsplash?
<mrmcq2u> plymouth offers the same extendability in terms of theme design, seems like un-needed overhead to me
<darkmatter> coz_: http://www.flickr.com/photos/92826085@N00/4184312119/sizes/o/
<coz_> darkmatter,  oo nice
<coz_> darkmatter,  is that a new version of wideget factory?
<darkmatter> coz_: old version.
<coz_> darkmatter,  is it also an editor?
<darkmatter> the new thing there is murrine from git :D
<darkmatter> coz_: nope. just a viewer, but it makes editing easier. though i want to give that glade powered thing a try. the one that loads changes on the fly
<darkmatter> coz_: my sonar tweaks are getting there. damn scrollbars still look weird though
<coz_> cool  I know you will get it right :)
<darkmatter> yeah. just need to get used to the new highlighting and stuff
<darkmatter> but the buttons and entries are pretty much spot on
<Equiet> Why is everything nicely rounded, but progress bars and that list on right side aren't?
<darkmatter> because its a WIP? :P
<Equiet> What's WIP?
<darkmatter> work in progress
<darkmatter> in other words 'its not done yet" ;)
<Equiet> Ah. Ok, then. Nice theme.
<darkmatter> Equiet: thanks. I'm just working on tweaking Sonar (openSUSE's  theme) to make it a bit lighter/lively (since the default is pretty much FLAT xD)
<darkmatter> coz_: did you notice the new gtk expander in that screenie? :D
<coz_> darkmatter,  not sure ....where is it?
<darkmatter> coz_: below the check/radio. I could kiss cimi for coding that :P
<coz_> oh yeah ...what is that for/
<darkmatter> no more ugly arrows. now its +/-
<coz_> cool
<darkmatter> coz_: treeview, pidgins buddylist, etc etc.
<darkmatter> brb. restarting pidgin
 * snubby tips hat
<snubby> sup artworkers
<mac_v> !hi | snubby
<ubottu> snubby: Hi! Welcome to #ubuntu-artwork! Channel for the community artwork team. Feel free to ask questions . Enjoy your stay
 * snubby bows
<mac_v> darkmatter: whats with the green shade ... it works well on the window title but not so much in the progress bars , gives me a sickly feel :(
<darkmatter> mac_v: I haven't touched the colors that much. just the gradients and crap
<darkmatter> just finished tweaking the scrollbars. I have an idea for menus/progress et al, but may or may not work. it should make that green look quite lovely
<darkmatter> mac_v: basically it's all still 'sonar' as far as the colors go. I'll be modifying those soon enough
<mac_v> darkmatter: nice  , the progressbar is the only sore shade there ;)
<darkmatter> mac_v: I was going to steal the gradient shades from firefox ;o
<darkmatter> because the effect in the addons window is just lovely *rips* xD
<darkmatter> but first. rebuilding gdm. stupid save screenspace patch. I want my clock damnit!
<mac_v> lol
<kwwii> btw, the new murrine engine is available for those who want to play with it
<kwwii> packaged, I mean
<Equiet> What means "Gtk2 engine"?
<darkmatter> kwwii: I just package that myself earlier :P
<darkmatter> kinda had too. since your ppa wont run on openSUSE ;D
<darkmatter> brb. restarting x
<kwwii> lol
<kwwii> Equiet: it is the code behind the theme
<kwwii> Equiet: gtk theme, I mean
<kwwii> https://launchpad.net/~ken-vandine/+archive/gnome is the link to the ppa with the murrine engine
<Equiet> So it's that gtkrc file?
<darkmatter> sweet. gdm has a clock now. now change the system hinting and hack the theme to bold-face the clock in gdm
<kwwii> Equiet: the gtkrc file is the definition of how to use the engine
 * thorwil moves humancity to lucid
<thorwil> the name is sooo great
<coz_> anyone have access to other throbber images for xsplash?  I am lazy to day and dont want to create any :)
<mac_v> coz_: gnome-look has a bunch of stuff [other than malware of-course ;p]
<mac_v> xsplash stuff*
<coz_> mac_v,  oh ok   ... I know how to make the darn things but they take too long :)
<zniavre> good evening
<zniavre> https://launchpad.net/~ken-vandine is here ?
<darkmatter> http://img691.imageshack.us/img691/4954/screenshotijw.png scrollies are almost done methinks
<zniavre> how did you managed to disable rgba stuff for apps does not support it ?
<mrmcq2u> if you ask me the apps should be patched to support it at this stage
<mrmcq2u> its nearly been two years since cimi first introduced it
<zniavre> a ok
<mrmcq2u> any chance someone using the client side window patch can debug the banshee failure and post it on pastebin for me?
<mrmcq2u> kwwii - you using the patch?
#ubuntu-artwork 2009-12-15
<darkmatter> mac_v: kwwii: http://img693.imageshack.us/img693/5907/screenshotat.png yes no or maybe on the menu colors?
<kwwii> good morning everyone
<thorwil> morning!
<thorwil> http://www.tcampbell.net/john/
<thorwil> ah, now that it's back to 26 from 4, it surely will become _busy_ here again :)
<dashua> http://www.ubuntu-pics.de/bild/34432/screenshot_007_NZuBEz.png
<dashua> Pretty sexxy options
<dashua> New expander is pretty sweet
<dashua> http://www.ubuntu-pics.de/bild/34436/screenshot_4UZx98.png
<dashua> nice through_shade as well :)
#ubuntu-artwork 2009-12-16
<mac__v> kwwii: hi... for cursors , we could use the oxygen cursors ;)
<darkmatter> mac__v: by jove! I think I got it! http://www.flickr.com/photos/92826085@N00/4189873892/ and the money shot: http://www.flickr.com/photos/92826085@N00/4189112919/
<mac__v> darkmatter: nice :)  but the panel shows Bug #403135 :(
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 403135 in alltray "Notification area icon wrongly rendered/has a black background (multiple apps)" [Low,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/403135
<darkmatter> mac__v: that only seems to apply with a panel bg. if you set a panel image in the theme proper, it doesn't do a funky render *shrug*
<darkmatter> but yeah, that bug is slightly annoying
<mac__v> ah , pidgin is already registered in the bug ;)
<darkmatter> ;o
<mac__v> someone should tell cimi to reduce the size of the + and - in the expanders
<darkmatter> yeah
<darkmatter> mac__v: still have a lot of tweaking to do on that theme. its a hybrid (some minor pixmap work) template. so basically 'everything' needs to be recolorable.
<mac__v> argh..! lucid is messing with me :/
<zniavre__> <mac__v> someone should tell cimi to reduce the size of the + and - in the expanders > that's right
<zniavre__> but they are supposed to be "customisable" no?
<thorwil> oh boy: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Incoming/Lucid/My%20Computer%20Explorer
<zniavre__> :o)
<mac_v> is there even an adobe photoshop for linux? o.0
<zniavre__> via wine ?
<mac_v> hehe :D
<thorwil> it screams Windows so loud, one could think it's something i haven't seen before: troll mockups. trollups, perhaps?
 * thorwil moves it to https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Incoming/Concepts/
 * thorwil contacts user about it
#ubuntu-artwork 2009-12-17
<darkmatter> http://www.flickr.com/photos/92826085@N00/4192829150/sizes/o/
 * kwwii doesn't like the + and - style of the snapshot engine
<kwwii> darkmatter: is there any way to tweak that?
<darkmatter> kwwii: yeah. replace it with pixmaps or with another engine
 * darkmatter doesn't like that recoloring is broken in the current pixbuf engine :/
<kwwii> darkmatter: I don't like using more than one engine in my stuff
<kwwii> it makes it too slow, I think
<kwwii> but for prototyping it is great
<darkmatter> I have a smallish pixmap dependency. for the most pat it doesn't matter (resize gripper, the scollbars/menubars I'm working on) as the images are/will be theme specific. However I'm trying to maintain recolorability in the theme as a whole. and two pixmaps are p-ing me off. the handle and sidebar/statusbar frame images for nautilus (there's no other 'clean' way to work aroud the issues with the eyesore that is the filer). but the effe
<darkmatter> kwwii: if you go overboard it makes it to slow. it's really a matter of really planning out a theme
<kwwii> guess I am just a purist :p
<darkmatter> I could probably get away without pixmaps in the sidebar, but it would raise a small issue. the hline would go poof on adjusting the contrast. and the resulting gap between the trash and the bookmarks would look like crap
<darkmatter> kwwii: purity is for the weak ;D
<kwwii> lol
<darkmatter> kwwii: it's only two pixmaps anyway :P
<kwwii> hehe, it is not the end of the world :)
<darkmatter> kwwii: there's unfortunately no other way to cleanly kill the shadow around the sidebar header. there are ways to do it without, but the results are ugly (the buttons get replaced by colored boxes). but the added advantage would be I could custom face/color the selector text. woe is me
<kwwii> true
<kwwii> in the current stuff I am working on I use some pixmaps too
<darkmatter> kwwii: we just need 1) a recode of nautilus. or 2) a nice fat hack in an engine(s) to deal with the issue
<darkmatter> but app specific engine code is naughty. we never use it, not even fore evolution ;o
<darkmatter> <--- lies
<darkmatter> kwwii: the part of the WIP I like the best is the vertical alignment/increased padding in the sidebar. finally. clickable areas xD
<kwwii> sorry, I am on a conf-call atm
<darkmatter> np
<thorwil> so Alexander Larsson just announced a change of focus for Nautilus because gnome-shell will become *the shell* for 3.0. i vaguely recall that it was started to "try out things"
<thorwil> but it runs on a straight path to inclusion, no matter what
<thorwil> once you have an implementation, it's hard to stop. too bad there's no direct competition
<thorwil> http://www.gnome.org/~alexl/nautilus-2-29-1.png
<darkmatter> ok. even without the split-view it looks cluttered :/
<thorwil> nah, not enough toolbars. also, all gnome apps should implement split view and tabs.
<thorwil> now, if you could detach tabs inside the window, to have windows in windows, that would rock!
<thorwil> nautilus should have something in the top left, where you click on and then the whole window changes
<thorwil> to an overview of actions and splits and tabs
<darkmatter> goog dod. simplify man! 130+ additional features does not = better. especially when you're doing the whole dated "split-view, omg tabs! omg jam packed toolbars!" approach from 2 decades ago. I thought gnome 3 was supposed to be an advancement. not an evolutionary regression to the days when designers didn't exist
<thorwil> nonsense, every part of the screen should be an active area. gnome really has to stop thinking about user's mental ressources like they were precious.
<darkmatter> lol. it's not about 'mental resources' its about efficient design. 'usability' and 'usefulness' are to often used as catch terms/niche terms. it should be about form 'and' function working together flawlessly, not about 'lets throw more crap in without a single notion of design'. I'm all for improved functionality. but if I wanted a ui that was stuck in the past I'd have never left the past
<thorwil> exactly, it's about efficiency. so each user action should have maximal impact ... like changing everything at once!
<darkmatter> and again the point is completely missed
<thorwil> yes, i do think the point is completely missed
 * mrmcq2u thinks thorwil would like the openoffice mouse :D
<thorwil> mrmcq2u: almost, i'm saddened about the half-hearted approach
<mrmcq2u> lol
 * mrmcq2u thinks he will be switching to something else around gnome 3.0 if the gnome-shell guys get their way
<darkmatter> efficiency is not soley about the features. the BIGGEST contributor is design (from a user interaction perspective). unfortunately they completely missed the mark judging from the nautilus bit. it's supposed to be 'click *less* do more. not 'click more, and do slightly more than you did before".. meh
 * mrmcq2u thinks the biggest issue with gnome shell is the "you don't get it attitude", if the majority of people don't get it maybe its time to try a different concept :(
<thorwil> pah, how could design ever be the biggest contributor to how things end up being?
<thorwil> mrmcq2u: with an audience that doesn't get it, you have to redesign the audience, of course. all their fault if that happens
<mrmcq2u> I don't think thats what he is arguing, design seems to be absent from gnome-shells conception. Both visually and in terms of usability.
<mrmcq2u> gnome-shell is screwed if keyboards dive in use over the next few years
<mrmcq2u> Which will happen
<mrmcq2u> its a power users ui
<mrmcq2u> thats something canonical should consider before adopting it, unless they want to change their catch phrase to "ubuntu, linux for power users"
<thorwil> mrmcq2u: are you kidding? needing and wanting any number (dynamically) of workspaces surely doesn't make one a power user!?
 * mrmcq2u prefers moblin-panel over gnome shell, I know its designed for netbooks but seems allot more usable and adaptable than gnome-shell
 * thorwil leaves for dinner and might return with a refreshed package or seriousness
<darkmatter> thorwil: I think your definitions are skewed. the 'art' is the smallest. most insignificant and final part of the design process. it's like the icing on a cake. if the cakes recipe sucks the icing won't improve the flavor
<mrmcq2u> thorwil - relying on keyboard shortcuts to switch between apps does :(
<mrmcq2u> darkmatter - i think thorwil is just taking the piss, I would assume he understands the difference between usability and visual design.
<mrmcq2u> I also sense some sarcasm coming from him, at least I hope its sarcasm :D lol
<Equiet> darkmatter: But the icing is why you tasted this cake (first) among the others.
<darkmatter> Equiet: true. (I'm artist and designer and (rusty) programmer. I believe in a convergence of form and function at all levels). I'm just saying making the next-gen gnome 'pretty' won't make it any more palatable
<mrmcq2u> gnome-shell's flaw in design is that its main concern is to make people use workspaces more yet it doesn't really give any reasons as to why that is the top priority or important in any way to the "users" experience. Its very brute force, its "hey we have workspaces", "use them now!". This is why I think it is absent of not only form but function as well.
<mrmcq2u> And the argument of hey you can contribute to the design is bull, they wont drop the workspace thing. I have no idea why they used javascript because it was originally to prototype different designs but they have not come up with any alternative.
<darkmatter> and how many have tried to contribute (even if just on the design end) and gotten the "NOT GONNA HAPPEN!!!111!!!" thing? quite a few iirc
<mrmcq2u> I don't even understand what they were trying to say in the gnome-shell nautilus post. What so gnome-shell pretty much replaces the file manager now. Lets get rid of the spatial desktop. Navigate files on a tiny sidebar with cut off text titles and âtiny unrecognizable  thumbnails, no thanks.
<mrmcq2u> gnome 3.0 is shaping up to be a bigger flop than kde4.0 , the kde guys must be chuffed :D
<darkmatter> hehe
<thorwil> mrmcq2u: so at least you have a somewhat working sarcasm detector
<mrmcq2u> :)
<thorwil> mrmcq2u: spot on regarding th workspaces thing
<maitraya> I wanna contribute to ubuntu good looks. I have launchpad acc. How to help?
<Equiet> maitraya: Hi. You could introduce yourself, say something about your experience, whether you are artist, UI designer, programmer...
<mac_v> dashua: Bug 497885 ;)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 497885 in human-theme "make hanso and breathe icons the default theme for Lucid" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/497885
<mac_v> !contribute | maitraya
<ubottu> maitraya: For information regarding current Artwork team activity and about contributing to the Ubuntu Community artwork , Kindly read Wiki:  http://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork
 * mac_v reads scrollback and notices thorwil toying with people ;)
<mrmcq2u> lol
<maitraya> I'm a high school student living in India. I developed interest in digital art 6 yrs back and have been creating interactive artistic content for school fests and for educational purpose.
<thorwil> what? outrageous!
<maitraya> I've participated in a large no. of grapics/development inter-school competitions.
<thorwil> welcome maitraya, can you show us examples of your work?
<maitraya> go to www.winged-ckt..webs.com This was my first work. If u want more. I can upload them.
<maitraya> Sorry it is www.winged-ckt.webs.com
<maitraya> I designed everything
<maitraya> I think there can be a very nice looking ambient theme for ubuntu. Only it needs some hard work to be done.... Downloaded ubuntu 9.10 can't wait to get my hands on it. The new logon screen and the sleek interface was very impressive!!! :)
<Equiet> maitraya: What tools do you use? Inskcape, GIMP?
<maitraya> Right now I am also thinking of a set of ubuntu login screen pics to be designed. One of them could include a very artistic modern seven wonders of the world theme.
<maitraya> Yup. I love GIMP and its special effects.
<thorwil> maitraya: first you need to understand that there is a design team working at Canonical. the default theme and usually also the wallpaper is up to them
<maitraya> And I use Inscape too but not as frequently as GIMP. However the above was developed by a Commercial tool.
<maitraya> So what do we do????
<thorwil> maitraya: what they come up with is often a surprise for the artwork community as it is for everyone else
<maitraya> So what is the role of us??
<thorwil> maitraya: some of us work on additional themes
<mac_v> maitraya: the community work is in the wiki link in the topic
<maitraya> Maybe that then.... :-/
<maitraya> How do you know whether your artworks are selected or not???
<mac_v> maitraya: the current proposals are here > https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Incoming/Lucid
<thorwil> maitraya: themes need to be ready for packaging in time.  the who and what is usually discussed on the mailing list
<maitraya> Thanks buddy. You ar helping me a lot. I'm new here you see....
<thorwil> maitraya: there's also an icon theme a few of us work on: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/BreatheIconSet
<mac_v> maitraya: community themes/icons are in a separate package , the inclusions are discussed on the mailing list
<maitraya> So are they bundled with the ubuntu CD or kept online for people to download additionally??
<thorwil> maitraya: finally there's a flickr group for wallpapers: http://www.flickr.com/groups/ubuntu-artwork
<maitraya> Oh great!!! thorwill
<mac_v> maitraya: not bundled in the cd , but users can install later
<maitraya> That's Ok
<thorwil> mac_v: weren't Dust and New Wave on the CD for at least one release?
<mac_v> thorwil: those moved into the main , human theme [iirc]
<maitraya> Tell me one thing!! Is it necessary that I have to create artwork on open source softwares only??????
<thorwil> maitraya: no, but it helps
<mac_v> maitraya: preferable ;) , but not a rule yet :)
<maitraya> Did you check my site??
<thorwil> maitraya: briefly. has some nice visuals, but feels a little inconsistent
<maitraya> Maybe..... I developed it 5 yrs back
<thorwil> maitraya: e.g., all the content links on http://www.winged-ckt.webs.com/contents.html lead to pages breaking the layout
<maitraya> Yup. Thats one problem. Plus I dont update anymore. So thats that.
<thorwil> plus all the typical problems with flash-heavy pages
<maitraya> YES. I AGREE O:-)
<thorwil> :)
<maitraya> Thanx and bye everyone.... 8-):PO:-);-)
<mac_v> http://www.markshuttleworth.com/archives/295
<kwwii> ooh, the word is out
<kwwii> now I can talk about it :)
<kwwii> it's just about title swapping, the way things work won't really change
 * thorwil doesn't even have a title to swap!
<kwwii> or one to be taken away ;)
<thorwil> oh, let me have my glass half empty ;)
<kwwii> hehe
<mac_v> lol
<Equiet> Can't we make a mock up of community dreamed Ubuntu?
<thorwil> Equiet: sure you can
<thorwil> Equiet: i don't need to tell you how long it takes to create a full featured mockup ;)
<thorwil> Equiet: and then there's the question what you achieve with it
<Equiet> Me is not enough. I saw a lot of great ideas that has never been implemented. It must be something that community wants, not single person.
<Equiet> *s/has/have
<thorwil> Equiet: do you know the term bikeshedding?
<Equiet> No...
<thorwil> http://sunsite.ualberta.ca/jargon/html/B/bikeshedding.html
<Equiet> Ok... And what are that minor and major problems?
<thorwil> Equiet: regarding theming, every little detail and the whole will be "discussed" as if everything is trivial
<thorwil> Equiet: i once thought it would be possible to get people to pull in one direction. the remains of an attempt are at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Documentation#On%20Design
<Equiet> So, what to do?
<thorwil> Equiet: for my part, the answer has been nothing, so far. nothing regarding theming
<Equiet> :|
<thorwil> Equiet: the picture i'm painting is still too bright. you also have to consider that we have almost no coding skills in our so called team. gtk theming is a mess. there are special cases and limitations everywhere
<thorwil> Equiet: but there are so many other things a designer can work on, with much better chances of actually making a difference
<Equiet> Maybe if we will make really good mock up and post it to brainstorm, coders would make some work.
<thorwil> this is especially true if you leave the ubuntu relam and take on the larger floss world
<Equiet> For example?
<thorwil> Equiet: we already saw one or 2 mockups where lots and lots of users went ecstatic and shouted: this should be implemented! this must be implemented! somehow there's never a capable developer in the crowd who will do it
<thorwil> Equiet: i sometimes get requests for artwork from projects
<thorwil> Equiet: and i bet that chances are good if you simply approach a project where you think the could benefit from some artwork or design love
<thorwil> really, sometimes i think i should call for the artwork team wiki, list and channel to be dissolved, for everyone to spent there time elsewhere ^^
<thorwil> good night!
<mrmcq2u> night
<kwwii> night
 * kwwii heads out as well
#ubuntu-artwork 2009-12-18
<darkmatter> mac_v:  Compare the GtkTreeView in http://www.flickr.com/photos/92826085@N00/4194566636/sizes/o/ to the old shot http://www.flickr.com/photos/92826085@N00/4192829150/sizes/o/ Yes/No regarding the new coloration?
<darkmatter> holy crap. have you guys checked out the elementary toolkit from enlightenment?oO
 * darkmatter faints
<Equiet> darkmatter: Link.
<darkmatter> http://trac.enlightenment.org/e/wiki/Elementary
<Equiet> Aw...
<thorwil> scaling is good
<mac_v> !test
<ubottu> yes, I'm alive.
<thorwil> ubottu: actually you're dead
<ubottu> Error: I am only a bot, please don't think I'm intelligent :)
<thorwil> yeah, that's part of it
<thorwil> http://arstechnica.com/open-source/news/2009/12/ubuntu-1004-will-bring-panel-overhaul-social-network-menu.ars
<Equiet_> It has been a week since I proposed Software Center UI. Not even one reaction so far... :(
<thorwil> Equiet_: not very likely to happen, then. of course, we're approaching that time of year where nothing happens anymore :)
<kwwii> Equiet_: you should post it to the ayatana list as well and perhaps ping mpt
#ubuntu-artwork 2009-12-19
<darkmatter> hallo coz_
<coz_> darkmatter,  hey guy
<darkmatter> http://www.flickr.com/photos/92826085@N00/4194566636/ :O!
<coz_> darkmatter,  nice :)
<darkmatter> I lowered the saturation on the treeview rows since then. I totally forgot to check how they looked in notebooks >_>
<coz_> darkmatter,  the saturation effects the appearanc in notebooks??
<darkmatter> coz_: yeah. because the notebookes are lighter than the bg (shaded at 1.12 i think). it makes the lists look way to colorful. I dropped it down a few notches
<coz_> darkmatter,  I didnt know that  mmmm
<darkmatter> coz_: it's still colored. the 'built in' cold greys in gtk suck :P
<darkmatter> coz_: final shade. still colorized but a bit less saturated http://img51.imageshack.us/img51/6189/screenshotxk.png
<coz_> mmm  well I like this.. I am not usually attracted to a neutral gray  but this is nice
<darkmatter> shame though. I really liked the green, but I dun feel like redoing the notebooks just to make it work
<coz_> darkmatter,  ooo   is that green?
<darkmatter> coz_: the entire theme is green, just uber desaturated :P
<darkmatter> even the black is green xD
<coz_> darkmatter,  oh ok...mmm I must not be able to see that subtlety
<coz_> darkmatter,  that part I saw  but the lighter areas looked somewhat neutral to me  so  ...duh :)
<darkmatter> coz_: saturation from 2-4 depending. so yeah. its not easily noticable. it just makes a grey thats very warm instead of cool/cold
<coz_> darkmatter,  yeah ... sorry   ... I  just didnt pick that up
<darkmatter> coz_: the theme is 'half' mine. it's an extensive mod of Sonar (openSUSE's default gnome theme) with some color tweaks and heavy gtk reworking. next is gradient menubars. a refined metacity, and pixmaped scrollbars (recolorable trough. fancy sliders with a 'glow' on the edge... it's a suse thing)
<darkmatter> coz_: because a reoccuring suse styling cue has been a slight glassy shimmer on the edge of darkness. I thought I'd expand on it as a subtle motif throughout the theme
<coz_> nice
<coz_> damn my  battery backup is beeping rapidly ???   wtf?
<darkmatter> coz_: you can see it on the metacity as is, but the metacity lacks definition. a darker continuation of the shine/shimmer should frame it completely (you can'yt see the edge of the windows on dark backgrounds)
#ubuntu-artwork 2009-12-20
<FLOZz_> Hello all  _o/
#ubuntu-artwork 2010-12-20
<vish> gah!!! "fileless" paradigm
<darkmatter> vish: quit abusing the term paradigm or I'll be forced to slap you:P
<vish> darkmatter: not me ;)  â¦ it's being abused on Ayatana mailing list.. but i do hope you get to slap someone ;p
<darkmatter> hehe
<thorwil> vish: i for one can't wait to have all my stuff trapped in application specific databases and i'm not at all concerned about having to deal with both the filesystem and stuff on top of it. incremental backups are also no topic at all
<vish> i'm not sure what they expect to result from that thread.. o.0
<thorwil> vish: not everyone is that goal oriented. some enjoy traveling on a road to nowhere
<darkmatter> goals are overrated, more duct tape!
<vish> thorwil: well, travelling aimless is good, but is it necessary to force everyone to watch it/listen to it? ;)
<thorwil> vish: forget about the ayatana list, or delete all mail without reading, except from a selected few senders or new ones
<thorwil> vish: as you know what happens if you express being displeased about the running around in circles and argument for the sake of it
<vish> yea, thats what i'v been doing.. i read if there was a response from someone specific..
<vish> thorwil: i did try to break that thread in the early stages though! when it was something "File menu" , but fredrik revived it in it's new avatar as the fileless paradigm! ;p
<doctormo> vish: Perhaps we need to get the adults together to talk about it some more
<doctormo> It's a very interesting topic, but the ayatana mailing list thread is dumb.
<vish> yea, the topic is interesting but i dont think it would be solved by discussing there. :s  hence i find their energy being misplaced/wasted..
<doctormo> vish: What do you want to see?
<vish> well, for starters some more solid discussions (though i deleted a lot from that thread) ;p
<doctormo> vish: I meant what do you want?
<vish> doctormo: oh no! not going into that topic.. ;)  i think we can stick with pushing the art-owl usage for UFS ;)
<vish>  that would be much more productive and more in the present.. ;)
<doctormo> :-)
<thorwil> doctormo, vish: so we got mail
<doctormo> thorwil: Yes I just read it
<doctormo> Facinating
 * vish checks mail..
<thorwil> doctormo: almost manages to make me feel bad
<doctormo> thorwil: It's a very good poolitical email
<doctormo> thorwil: Don't feel bad, the email is designed to make you feel bad. I'm heading out right now but when I come back I will decypher it with you.
<thorwil> doctormo: don't worry, that why i said "almost"
<vish> sheesh!
<vish> what a waste of time! :/
<troy_s> vish: ?
<vish> troy_s: john baer.. :/
<troy_s> Oh gosh the drama.
<vish> troy_s: thorwil sent him a mail asking him to explain his actions and very conveniently he side-stepped all those issue and copy-pasted COC !!
<vish> meh..
<troy_s> So what. Ignore him.
<vish> yea..
<troy_s> http://uxmag.com/strategy/the-importance-of-designing-an-experience-culture
<vish> thorwil: you know we can remove him from the list, right?  only he needs to contact the council if he wants back in ;p
<troy_s> vish: Bah. Bully with brilliance. Not bs.
<thorwil> troy_s: ignoring him is a 'solution' only for an inner circle. all in all he would still be poison for the team (or any attempt at having/being one)
<vish> troy_s: if he was worth even a fraction of the energy we spend on him, then there is a point in trying to outsmart him, or talk some sense into him..
<troy_s> thorwil: Personal opinion, but I have always seen leadership as something that is earned. Having a challenge for leadership isn't a bad thing really. If it turns dark, the intelligent can decipher it.
<troy_s> vish: I'd be more worried with the whole 'why bother'. Are there valuable people on that mailing list? I'd like to think there are...
<vish> troy_s: nah, we have explained and any questions we asks he rarely has a reply
<vish> ask*
<troy_s> vish: Have faith for those with ability. If there is a serious worry about someone spooling off talent, then it should be at the merits of that talent.
<troy_s> vish: Don't sweat it.
<vish> ;)
<troy_s> (Great article by the way)
<troy_s> (Should read it)
<vish> if someone posted such articles to the list would be nice too ;) <hint>
<thorwil> vish: if you get 2 receipts from me, it's because evolution crashed when it was supposed to send the first one
<vish> cool..
<troy_s> thorwil: What is this Evolution?
<vish> lol!
<vish> troy_s: seriouslY ?
<troy_s> vish: AlwayS.
<thorwil> troy_s: evolution is a terrible mail client that i would get rid of, if it wasn't for my archive of mail and address book
<troy_s> vish: I get the feeling it is a useless bag of behind-the-times client for email, but it has been such a long time since I cared.
<troy_s> ;)
<vish> ;)
<troy_s> vish: Secret: IMAP. Gmail.
<thorwil> really, it's a shame that it is the default for ubuntu
<vish> thorwil: probably by the next LTS it would be gone
<vish> TB
<troy_s> thorwil: Not really. It is a perfect flag bearer. Warding off all.
<thorwil> you could as well have dog poo as recommendation  in a bakery
<troy_s> vish: To be brutally honest, I used to concern myself with email clients. Then I gave Chrome a try and well... as much as I was skeptical, I can see it replacing many, many, many pieces of software.
<vish> boo, chrome is over-rated
<vish> FF4 is good, much better than Chrome can ever be..
<troy_s> vish: And in the bigger picture in terms of cross platform ability to migrate (short of the lovely barriers all around us regarding content - perhaps the biggest threat to Libre), it is nothing short of a huge win.
<troy_s> vish: You clearly don't use Chrome. lol.
<troy_s> vish: The simple boot up time alone is shockingly desireable.
<troy_s> desirable even.
<vish> troy_s: yea, i used it, but my FF is totally pimped out and there is no easy way for me to replace it ;)
<vish> troy_s: try FF with Bartab plugin, it beats Chrome any day
<vish> FF loads in a flash..
<troy_s> vish: Sure. And by the time it loads I've already finished what I needed to do.
<troy_s> rubbish.
<troy_s> vish: At any rate, how about something interesting in art / design land?
<troy_s> anything?
<vish> troy_s: is there a remote possibility of a culture growing so soon? unless we try the petri dish ;)
<troy_s> CUT TO: Crickets chirping and a tumbleweed rolling by.
<troy_s> vish: I think so. I suppose it depends on visions of that culture. I tend to like people from different regions that happen to also speak my native tongue as they can read articles and such in other languages far faster and translate far superior than I.
<thorwil> troy_s: wonder what you think of http://www.flickr.com/photos/vladstudio/5260045459/in/pool-uawt-6
<troy_s> vish: Part of the myopia and fundamentalist / absolutist thinking around these parts is precisely because the alternate cultures don't have the agency to participate and voice the alternate viewpoints.
<troy_s> vish: Sure.
<vish> i guess that 'sure' was for thorwil ^ :)
<thorwil> vish: but you can have it ;)
<troy_s> vish: Nope. For the wallpaper. I don't really have much to say. It's a very well stylized and executed anteater.
<vish> ^for thorwil gain ;)
<vish> +a
<troy_s> vish: Plus A.
<troy_s> ?
<vish> nah, i meant to say 'again'..
<thorwil> troy_s: to turn gain into again
<thorwil> quite a loss, actually
<troy_s> thorwil: Yes. I'm completely lost.
<troy_s> thorwil: Sorry?
<thorwil> wtf
<vish> oh i should sleep i guess , i'm getting more typos than usual ;p
<vish> troy_s: thorwil was the one who asked about the wallpapers ;p
<troy_s> vish: Oh balls.
<troy_s> thorwil: Sorry thor... color code was the same.
<thorwil> yeah, highlighting should leave out the nick
<troy_s> thorwil: Odd... now you are different again.
<troy_s> How strange.
<troy_s> thorwil: I suppose I don't really know what to 'think'. Just end up disassembling things for no apparent reason. Or not. It just 'is', as it were.
 * vish forwards troy_s' link to the list.. ;)
 * thorwil found origami and common lisp much more interesting than ubuntu-artwork, today
<thorwil> vish: wise canadian, eh? :)
<vish> thorwil: well, let's just keep fattening the turkey ;)
<thorwil> =8-)
<vish> finally got a new expression out of you! ;p
<troy_s> Wait. I hate you both.
<troy_s> vish: GAH.
<thorwil> http://design.canonical.com/2010/12/design-museum-exhibition-london/
<vish> troy_s: well, the mailing list is booooooooooooooring! atleast something new happened there , thanks to you ;)
<troy_s> thorwil: That's fantastic.
<vish> lol!  the first reply!
<vish> where did the M really go?
<thorwil> it's a - wait for it - Mystery!
<vish> the comment rather..
<troy_s> vish: Maybe out with the Mentally Miniscule.
<troy_s> That is fantastic. Now if only the home team can get into the London Design Museum.
<troy_s> ???
<troy_s> Charline is the uX lead now?
<troy_s> Eikes.
<thorwil> i don't actually no if that is new
<thorwil> know, even
<troy_s> thorwil: I thought she was research only.
<troy_s> thorwil: Seems like an odd choice. And don't get me wrong, I'd be the first to tout the merits of anthropology in design and such. But it just seems... odd.
<thorwil> good night! :)
<troy_s> vish: You got any new work partner?
#ubuntu-artwork 2010-12-21
<coz_> hey all
<darkmatter> o/
 * kwwii sings "It's beginning to look at lot like christmas"
 * thorwil puts on some gabber
<kwwii> thorwil: I would never have pegged you for a hard-core techno fan :P
<evilvish> kwwii: hey!
<kwwii> hehe, took me a second to figure out who evil vish was :P
<kwwii> I read elvish at first
<evilvish> yea.. seems a netsplit turned me bad ;p
<kwwii> lol, I would pay to see you dressed up like elvis ;D
<evilvish> ;p
<whois> crap!!
<kwwii> whois whois
<vish> while getting to register the evil nick , i must have spammed a lot of channels ;p
<thorwil> kwwii: what, did you think i would prefer roy black?
<kwwii> thorwil: I figured you are a big fan of volksmusic!
<thorwil> kwwii: yeah, because it's honesty and sophistication can't be matched!
<kwwii> thorwil: hehe, yeah...erm, that is what I meant :P
<kwwii> time for lunch...bbl
<iainfarrell> hey thorwil and vish
<iainfarrell> are you guys around in about 20 mins?
<thorwil> iainfarrell: just about to leave for between 20 and 30 minutes :)  bbl
<vish> iainfarrell: hey.. yup.. i'll be there for another hr..
<thorwil> -_-
<iainfarrell> hey vish
<iainfarrell> in thorwil's absence - unless he's still about
<thorwil> 0.o
<iainfarrell> heh
<iainfarrell> ok
<iainfarrell> sorry
<iainfarrell> last time I get distracted by other work
<iainfarrell> need to catch you guys re: the wallpaper contest
<iainfarrell> Ivanka asked me to chat to you both about the illustrations part
<iainfarrell> we'll run the Flickr contest again
<iainfarrell> vish: have you been talking to Vanks about wallpapers in Natty at all?
<thorwil> iainfarrell: i think we would like to see illu-walls collected at art.ubuntu-owl.org
<thorwil> doctormo is the man to talk to about that
<thorwil> iainfarrell: we suggested as much to ivanka and she seemed to be ok with it
<iainfarrell> cool
<iainfarrell> I will try and track him down
<coz_> is this a replacement for using flickr? ^^
<thorwil> iainfarrell: afaics it was decided that these shall have nothing to do with the f.c. showcase
<iainfarrell> yeah
<iainfarrell> although from an "iain worrying about it getting on the CD" it's all the same to me ;)
<iainfarrell> I'll need to kick them both off as soon as I can
<thorwil> iainfarrell: i suggest to ask for 2560 x 1600 px format. maybe point to https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Documentation/Backgrounds , especially the templates at the end
<iainfarrell> ahh good thinking
<iainfarrell> thanks
 * vish was afk.. catches up with scrollback
<vish> iainfarrell: doctormo was also cool with using art.ubuntu-owl.org for illustrations, we were waiting for you :)
<vish> iainfarrell: we could use it for the photos too if the image size restriction or the large pool size is a problem in flickr
<iainfarrell> hey Vish, I think we make the illustrations a test for the new system
<vish> cool..
<iainfarrell> the reason for using Flickr is that it has great photographers already there
<vish> yea..
<iainfarrell> but illustrations is new
<iainfarrell> so we can go anywhere
<coz_> what are you defining as "illustrations" ?
<darkmatter> illustrations is a fairly broad and generic term
<coz_> not really
<iainfarrell> coz_ I suppose the definition here would be drawn or abstract
<coz_> darkmatter,  illustration by definition...is an image  depicting text
<iainfarrell> let me look for examples
<coz_> an illustration relys on text  or story
<coz_> there are no other definitions for illustration
<iainfarrell> so perhaps drawn or rendered would be a better term then
<coz_> a kids story book has illustrations clarifying or  imaging  text
<darkmatter> coz_: definition and popular usage are different fish. I can show you many an (officially labelled and categorized) Illustrator that doesn't Illustrate by the definition of the word, as in ever ;)
<coz_> darkmatter,  like who ...there are very few great illustrators that can stand alone as fine art
<coz_> NC wyeth  comes to mind
<darkmatter> coz_ Sir John Howe by example.
<coz_> let me check that out
<iainfarrell> I have to head to lunch but will catch you guys after and get this ball rolling! :)
<coz_> darkmatter,  but even he is relying on a stroy line
<coz_> story
<darkmatter> or nearly every artist that does boo covers. a vast number of them are fine artists by any hard definition of the word, but all are classified as Illustrators (even by themselves)
<coz_> darkmatter,  I am sure they do ...however  an illustrator is "rarely"  a fine artist
<darkmatter> coz_: even I rely on story. doesn't make me an illustrator :P
<coz_> darkmatter,  the images i am looking at by this john howe  are not fine art
<coz_> they are absolutely illustrations
<coz_> which rely on  text
<coz_> darkmatter,  fine art  relys on itself for explanation,,,, illustration needs text to define it
<coz_> there are no other definitions
<coz_> regardless of what "they"  may call themselves
<coz_> darkmatter,  one of the few illustrators that nearly bridged the gap between fine art and illustration is  NC wyet  giving birth of course to  Andrew Wyeth and subsequently  Jamie Wyeth    google images for  NC wyeth
<darkmatter> coz_: dun google then. a google for John Howe will show his popular work (which is the Illustrations he does on commision for the Tolkien society and such). google defeats everything. because google is evil like that
<coz_> darkmatter,  I googled him  I dont see that as fine art  that stands alone
<coz_> they are most definitly illustrations
<coz_> not fine art
<thorwil> it's true that illustration is not the right term for the wallpapers
<coz_> compositions  would be more appropriate  but probably less understood
<coz_> although it does raise the "bar"  for what may be submitted
<thorwil> how do you call everything except photos? where heavily edited photos and collages might be in, again
<coz_> thorwil,  those would also be  "compositions"
<darkmatter> coz_: never google.  artbooks n stuff :P
<coz_> darkmatter,  you should take a quick look at NC wyeth,,, he is as I said ,,,one of the few illustrators  to nearly bridge that gap
<coz_> "compositions"  are not specific to a particular "media"   it is does however concern itself with quality
<coz_> NC's son Andrew Wyeth  took his father's knowledge of illustration and most definitly bridged that gap  as did andrew's son  Jamie
<coz_> I didnt mean to stop the conversation  short :(
<kwwii> coz_: indeed, but modern photography kinda took their place :(
<coz_> kwwii,   what do you mean?  took the place of illustrators?
<coz_> kwwii,  yes to a large extent I agree
<kwwii> coz_: yepp, that is what I meant
<kwwii> unfortunately :(
<coz_> Illustrators  are a particular breed of artist...  photography..etching ..painting...all are valid for illustrating..but the mind set is different from fine art.. unfortunately "corportate"  advertising has somewhat basterdized  the  concept of illustration
<coz_> kwwii,  and I absolutely agree with you
<coz_> "corporate"  rather
<kwwii> :-)
<coz_> I personally always rejected  illustration as  a path I wanted to take because i felt that "composition" itself was the end  and showed greater skill  than an illustrator  but that is my personal opinion
<kwwii> personally, I love illustration (although it can be quite boring at times) and photography
<coz_> kwwii,  oh yes... there are some  really great fine photographers out there  dead  and alive...that rival any skilled painting or sculpture
<kwwii> but I really dislike it when people only use photoshop to make shitty photos look nice...it is an "art" all to itself and is killing all the good photographers
<kwwii> but then again, I am old-skool
<kwwii> :p
<coz_> kwwii,  not old school at all... the tools  arent the problem as much as the hand manipulating them
<coz_> and of course the mind behind the hand
<kwwii> hehe, indeed
<coz_> I had one arguement with a young fellow that felt one of his favorite artists  was absolutely great,, and that anyone using terms like "fine art"  were old and out of date,,,yet this  great artist of his painted  less accurately than a chimp
<coz_> there is skill necessary for any  project dealing with " graphics"  its just that people "reject"  the idea that there are rules to composing  , be it line..or color...or  shape,,, or light... all are composed "purposely"  withing any composition...too often these are ignored even with something as simple as a desktop wallpaper
<kwwii> lol, I think people have lost the feeling for what fine art really is
<coz_> kwwii,   that's for sure :)
<kwwii> I bet people these days would say an iphone is art ;-)
<coz_> kwwii,   as opposed to industrial design :)
<kwwii> exactly
<kwwii> design and art co-mingle in peoples heads for some reason
<coz_> kwwii,   because they are poorly educated ...
<coz_> kwwii,  this is a freind of mine    http://www.westpennart.com/images/index.htm  here in pittsburgh... I am no keen on all of his work but he understands the differenc.. he used to paint with peter max  whom he says is near  crap  :)
<kwwii> wow, nice stuff (except the web page itself)
<coz_> lol  yeah he still uses webtv
<kwwii> hehe
<coz_> kwwii,  he teaches in Luca italy every summer
<coz_> kwwii,  i was going to go there with him but I just cant afford  italy every year
<kwwii> nice, I wish I could paint
<kwwii> hehe, I can hardly afford to stay in Germany :p
<coz_> kwwii,  well painting doesnt have to be  realistic works
<coz_> kwwii,   I keep telling people  you can compose with shapes and torn paper
<kwwii> true, and I do paint and charcoal abstracts from time to time but part of me really wants to paint a realistic person
<coz_> kwwii,   oh cool... then study  a nude  :)
<kwwii> funny, I can do illustrations which are totally realistic but with a brush I seem to fail at it...
<coz_> kwwii,  different approaches
<kwwii> yeah, I've thought about taking a course at the local college
<kwwii> indeed
<coz_> kwwii,  dont hesitate  to take the course
<coz_> kwwii, ` if nothing else it advances your skills  and knowledge
<kwwii> funny thing is, I used to paint with my computer and wacom and that came easy, then learning vecotrs to do illustrations was hard....on and on
<kwwii> coz_: indeed
<darkmatter> realism and technical skill does not an artist make ;) (late reply to (08:21:35 AM) coz_: kwwii,  well painting doesnt have to be  realistic works) :P
<coz_> kwwii,  here are a few  of my older pieces    http://dl.dropbox.com/u/132551/my%20work/e.jpg   http://dl.dropbox.com/u/132551/my%20work/h.png    http://dl.dropbox.com/u/132551/my%20work/f.png     http://dl.dropbox.com/u/132551/my%20work/gram.png     http://dl.dropbox.com/u/132551/my%20work/Self.jpg
<coz_> darkmatter,  absolutely correct... no need to draw or paint anything naturalistically to be fine art
<kwwii> coz_: wow, impressive
<coz_> in fact i still like jackson pollock  which my friend here believes is total crap :)
<coz_> kwwii,   oh  old pieces  and thanks
<kwwii> your welcome
<coz_> but the same skills should be applied to even a desktop image... subtlety...clarity.. good design... unobtrusive  etc
<darkmatter> coz_: art is funny that way I've seen godlike technical skill/realism/blah blah with absolutely no life or passion or <insert whatever term here>, just not art. then I've seen marmalade stains on canvas that have utterly floored me ;)
<coz_> darkmatter,  boy  I cant agree more
<coz_> darkmatter,   I have seen some wonderful pieces with very little on the canvas..aka workspace
<coz_> darkmatter,  and 'that" is where knowledge of composition comes in
<coz_> learns the rules and try to break them
<coz_> not too many have actually broken those rules though :)
<darkmatter> coz_: yeah. plus we all have our preferences. like me. I was drawing/painting photo-realistically as soon as I was old enough to be trusted not to eat the tools :P
<coz_> :)
<coz_> darkmatter,  yep I understand
<coz_> darkmatter,  I often envy  abstract painters  for the clarity of  composition
<darkmatter> coz_: but thats not my thing, my imagination is to screwed up for that. surrealisn and abstraction is my schtick
<coz_> :)
<darkmatter> "you should do portraits". bah, I could make a killing at that, but where's the fun? ;)
<coz_> personally i am excited by good to great figure paintings..of too often...as  you said ,, I have seen great draftmenship in dipicitng the human form but it has no substance or was clearly copied from a photograph,,,which is both   offensive from a painters' point of view and basterdizes  the art of photography at the same time
<darkmatter> I mean. I have done portraits for people (among other stuff), but my heart just isn't in it
<coz_> darkmatter,   I tried the portrait  train once... but when they get the bill  they dont come back :)
<darkmatter> hehe
<coz_> I was once asked to do 18 postumous portraits of the great music composers  and when I told the guy that this would be a minimim of $5000  each he rejected the idea and though he should only pay  $500
<coz_> $500 for all 18  that is
<darkmatter> I have a mini portrait I did of the missus in my wallet. I should scan it one day. it's not a portrait. it started as one, but then got "Dalified" xD
<kwwii> try explaining to a developer why making an icon a) takes time and b) costs money
<coz_> darkmatter,  ooo miniatures
<kwwii> the typical response is "it's only a tiny little picture!"
<coz_> kwwii,   there is no language on this planet to explain to a developer the complextities  of even an icon :)
<coz_> kwwii,  they refuse to understand that any graphics is as complex as coding
<coz_> kwwii,  the main difference is  media
<kwwii> hehe
<kwwii> true
<darkmatter> in many ways moreso
<coz_> kwwii,  even developrs are bound by "rules"  of code
<coz_> too often developers think graphics are the "fun part"
<coz_> oy
<kwwii> lol
<coz_> now they changed my one icon in ccsm that I am going to have to kick ass to get the one I did back in
<coz_> darkmatter,  and yes I also believe that in many ways  graphics are far more complex ..depending on who is doing the graphics  but I guess that also applies to code
<coz_> david ravemen  and compiz as opposed to the developer of  "gnome-xchat " ")
<coz_> it is far easier to teach an artist to code  than to teach a developer art
<darkmatter> http://www.hrgiger.com/images/Ibanez_new.jpg <--- me wants
<coz_> darkmatter,   great detail... did you show this as an example of advertising art?
<coz_> that's another area that can have stand alone pieces
<coz_> advertising....although today  not so much
<darkmatter> coz_: nope. showed it as an example of awesome art adapted to advertising :P
<coz_> darkmatter,  ok you can look at it that way also :)
<coz_> darkmatter,  yes it is composed well and stands as a final composition
<coz_> it still comes down to the  "mind" behind the tools
<coz_> is there a vision?
<coz_> and do they have the skills to  carry it through
<darkmatter> coz_: Ibanez did a line of guitars featuring some of  Gigers paintings adapted to work on there guitars. it's advertising as far as marketing Giger I guess
<coz_> darkmatter,  but it doesn stand alone
<coz_> darkmatter,  and that makes go well beyond  advertising or illustration
<darkmatter> coz_: considering its Giger it better stand alone :P
<coz_> :)
<coz_> now the only thing I see is that this doesnt have the emotive content  a fine painting or sculpture would have  except for admirers of guitars ,,Ibanez  or Gigers
<coz_> but the design is very well done
<coz_> and ceratinly a stand alone piece
<coz_> certainly
<coz_> great poster....another  art form
<coz_> posters  seem a good combination of advertising...fine art...and illustration ... I suppose that's why it is distinct  as a valid path
<darkmatter> cozthe lack of emotive context is, as I said earlier "painting adapted to a guitar". I can't remember _which_ painting it is, or else I'd link to the original. but for a work of fusion (an actually painting adapted to "work" on a guitar) it is quite impressive
<coz_> darkmatter,  absolutely  and even without that knowlege  it still stands  as a good design
<coz_> I find "text" in any design is one of the more crucial  things to get right
<coz_> not only placement  but choice of font...size..
<darkmatter> bosch, fucks, dali, giger... lions and tigers and bears... OH MY!
<coz_> :)
<darkmatter> fuchs* evcen. bloody fingers
<darkmatter> even*
<coz_> damn fingers ... I have the same disorder :)
<darkmatter> guess today is a "don't touch tools" day :P
<coz_> :)
<coz_> well guys I have to get to the bank  which is about an hour away :(
<coz_> I will be back a bit later
<kwwii> I'm off to band practice...be back much later
 * vish wonders if people really read the specs :s
<vish> well, i guess some design activity is better than none ;p
<thorwil> vish: do you mean the additions to the xubuntu pool?
<vish> thorwil: nah, the SC one â¦ i guess he followed some re-tweet..
<vish> this is awesome!!!!!! http://www.engadget.com/2010/12/21/bbc-comedians-ridicule-tech-naming-schemes-make-us-laugh-along/
<thorwil> lol
<thorwil> there have been times in my life, where i really wanted to boot my system
<thorwil> but wouldn't have liked to see it crash
<efactusa> Hey everyone I just want to thank you all for the wonderful OS on behalf of me and the people of france and the crew at http://www.myefact.com we wouldnt have been able to do half of what we do if it wasn't for Ubuntu so THANKS UBUNTU DEVS!!
<thorwil> http://www.a2591.com/2010/12/minimalist-effect-in-maximalist-market.html
<vish> efactusa: it would be great if you could repeat those kind words on #ubuntu-devel :)
<vish> efactusa: most of the developers hang out in that channel
<thorwil> vish: i suspect it's a bot and all about that url in the message
<vish> thorwil: yea, seems so.. :/
<efactusa> ohhh ok :)
<efactusa> i think of devel as more like the officers though i think the real workers are like the translators
<efactusa> and the artists
<efactusa> etc
<efactusa> the developers themselves are kind of jerks
<vish> efactusa: nope.. they are not ;)
<efactusa> have you followed the blacklisting/removal of the alsa-oss compatibility driver from the kernel???
<efactusa> anyone who has followed that story knows they are jerks... they basically deliberately broke tons of apps (fine, if they really want to push new APIs) by breaking OSS compatibility... but the bad part is they also went out of their way to make it as difficult as possible for anyone who actually needs OSS to be able to use it
<efactusa> and all of that would be all well and good if there was some "master plan" that would result in a much better/awesome audio infrastructure
<efactusa> but there isn't, the only master plan is Pulseaudio, which is a horribly flawed solution, bloated, buggy, laggy, inappropriate for any kind of professional audio work, and not even the best sound server type solution (even assuming you do need to make everyone use a sound server, there is another one that is actually tight, low latency, well designed, etc-- JACK )
<efactusa> so many times basic desktop users I have told to try Ubuntu tell me it is too laggy
<efactusa> and when I check top/ps aux, 70% of their cpu is being used by Pulseaudio
<efactusa> and all they are doing is like, playing a youtube video
<efactusa> but the devs want to blame flash plugin for the problems.  Guess what, even if flash plugin is buggy, 99% of basic users DO care about actually using flash...
<efactusa> and like 1% of users care about being able to switch between multiple sound cards at once or have per-application mixing or any of the other stupid features pulseaudio delivers
<kwwii> efactusa: I suggest you take this conversation elsewhere
<kwwii> or I will have to remove you from the conversation
<efactusa> okay, sorry, i'll shut up, my point was just that ubuntu devs are dickwads.
<kwwii> efactusa: not true, and you cannot use that language here please
<efactusa> el programidors del ubuntu son cabrones y chupacabras
<vish> heh, that was an interesting turn of events ;p
<kwwii> indeed
<vish> kwwii: you give us these magical powers but they are only temporary until we logout .. ;)
<kwwii> vish: yeah, gotta figure out the bits to make it permanent
<vish> hmm, i think i have it in my logs somewhere..
<vish> kwwii:  /msg chanserv flags #ubuntu-artwork NICK +votiA
<kwwii> vish: done for yourself and thorwil
<vish> kwwii: it worked! awesome! thanks ;)
<vish> now , i can kick thorwil whenever i like \o/
<kwwii> ;-)
<vish> thorwil: you feel for it ;)
<thorwil> feel?
<vish> err,! fell*
<kwwii> I can has feel?
<kwwii> ouch, I wrote that and then thought about what it meant
<kwwii> usually best to do things in the other order
<vish> cop a feel , or however you spell it.. ;p
<thorwil> i had classmates who tended to do it in that order
<kwwii> vish: your english is way too good
<kwwii> I checked an old email account today, I have 4991 new message :P
<kwwii> s
<vish> kwwii: DELETE is your friend..
<vish> kwwii: just check if i had sent any mails though ;p
<kwwii> ;-)
<thorwil> if any of that is mailing list traffic ...
<vish> ah ha!
<thorwil> time to kick myself outa here. good night!
 * vish sleeps too..
<coz_> but it s only 4pm :)
<kwwii> coz_: it always 4pm somewhere :-)
<coz_> :)
#ubuntu-artwork 2010-12-22
<kwwii> good morning everyone
<thorwil> good morning!
<kwwii> hrm, how does one install the glabl menu on 10.10?
<kwwii> global, that is
<zniavre_> via ppa s ?
<iainfarrell> hey doctormo
<iainfarrell> how's it going?
<coz_> good day all
<darkmatter> hideyho neighbour coz_
<coz_> darkmatter,  hey guy   ..good morning :)
<darkmatter> is now. wasn't when I first got up and almost broke my face. lol ;P
<coz_> :)  yikes!   what did you do ?
<darkmatter> thankfully I still have decent reflexes xD
<vish> doctormo: hey, http://art.ubuntu-owl.org/ open ID login seems broken.. is it a known issue?
<vish> "/srv/www/art.ubuntu-owl.org/htdocs/cchost_lib/ccextras/cc-openid-helpers.inc"(35): Assigning the return value of new by reference is deprecated [2010-12-22 14:36 pm][MYIP ADDY][/login/openid]
<darkmatter> coz_: overslept. change in weather/sleeping "wrong" or whatever left my back (and thus legs) nonfunctional. fell off/out
<vish> doctormo: thats the error i get^
<coz_> darkmatter,  oooo been there guy :)
<vish> doctormo: login itself seems broken.. is that something we need to poke pleia2 about?
<coz_> early lunch be back in a bit
<thorwil> coz_: how was the lunch and when will be late lunch?
<coz_> thorwil,  :)  lunch was fine... and late lunche aroung 1pm  :)
<coz_> actually I meand " late lunch around 1pm"  damn fingers
<coz_> ok be back in about an hour or so
<vish> is anyone able to login to the fonttest ?
<vish> http://fonttest.design.canonical.com/ ?
<daker> vish, it's working
<vish> bah!
<vish> daker: could you get me a screenshot of font " â¹   "  regular in size 10 and 11 ?
<vish> using the default ambiance theme?
<daker> ok wait
<vish> daker: are you able to login to http://art.ubuntu-owl.org/  using openid as well?
 * vish frowns at FF4
<daker> i'll test
<daker> vish, i am using chromuim
<vish> yea.. might be something messed up with the daily build..
<daker> vish, i am not able to login
<daker> "/srv/www/art.ubuntu-owl.org/htdocs/cchost_lib/ccextras/cc-openid-helpers.inc"(35): Assigning the return value of new by reference is deprecated [2010-12-22 17:33 pm][41.248.151.89][/login/openid]
<vish> doctormo: ^
<vish> daker: thanks.. so it's not me alone.. :)
<vish> daker: nevermind the screenshots.. i was able to login using FF3.7
<vish> daker: thanks for testing.. :)
<daker> yw
<vish> thorwil: nope.. people just dont read specs ;)
<vish> the new SC design proposed is a total overhaul!
<thorwil> vish: we need specs that read themselves to people! mwuhahhaha!
<daker> \o/
 * vish thought i'd add the tasks page to the topic and then meh.. :s
<vish> doctormo: around?
<doctormo> vish: hi vish
<vish> doctormo: hi, so did you happen to catch the scrollback yesterday? the one with iain?
<doctormo> no
<vish> doctormo: they want to use the  http://art.ubuntu-owl.org/ for illustrations
<doctormo> sounds good
<vish> doctormo: and wanted to know is tagging was possible
<doctormo> have any of you used owl yet?
<vish> yes..
<vish> doctormo: but i could not login today and say positively.. but i told that i did remember it was possible
<vish> or we could add the feature if we wanted..
<doctormo> http://art.ubuntu-owl.org/people/doctormo
<doctormo> The way tagging works is thusly
<vish>  "/srv/www/art.ubuntu-owl.org/htdocs/cchost_lib/ccextras/cc-openid-helpers.inc"(35): Assigning the return value of new by reference is deprecated [2010-12-22 17:33 pm][41.248.151.89][/login/openid]
<vish> thats, the error we are getting with open ID
<doctormo> We create a type of upload, say "Wallpapers" and we specify as admins what tags should automatically be added to entries added in that way.
<doctormo> So we can keep track of things in a certain category
<doctormo> And users don't need to remember to add them
<doctormo> But, users can add any of their own tags on upload.
<vish> yea.. and mods can edit the tags too right?
<vish> mods/admins..
<doctormo> vish: yes, I'm fixing that error, one second
<vish> cool.. :)
<thorwil> as coz_ pointed out 'illustrations' is not the right term, when what we really are looking for is non-photographic work (or heavily edited photos and collages, perhaps
<thorwil> best single term proposed so far is "compositions"
<doctormo> Any reason to limit the degree away from photographs in definition?
<thorwil> doctormo: plain photography is already covered with that huge flickr pool
<doctormo> thorwil: This isn't about existing pools, it's about a definition of what will be acceptable in this new pool
<thorwil> and paintings, drawings, 3d renderings ... is a long list
<vish> i dint catch that discussion yesterday.. but http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/illustration
<thorwil> so single-shot photos are the one thing to exclude
<doctormo> vish: ok looks like openid won't be working. I've taken out the errors, but now it does nothing and that's about as far as my php goes.
<doctormo> you can still log in though
 * vish tries again..
<doctormo> vish: you'll have to register as you don't yet have a user... I think.
<vish> doctormo: hmm, seems so.. my open id account had admin privs too..
<vish> doctormo: cant we fix that?
<vish> i mean is there anyone we can ask?
<doctormo> thorwil: Interestingly the firefox svg renderer is now much better than imagemagik, so having png thumbnails is worse than just popping the svg in there.
<vish> doctormo: if we are having trouble, and we cant find anyone to have a look at it..  we can ask richardlee (from design team) who looks after their design site to have a look at it..
<doctormo> vish: I don't think there is much we can do, cchost has a lot of great ideas and the data integrity of the backend is good. But the code is aweful and the code is php which is a devil.
<vish> hmm..
 * doctormo dislikes php and so is biased.
<vish> oh i think daker likes php!
<vish> he is not around now..
<doctormo> vish: for now I've given you a fixed password
 * thorwil dislikes php and thinks that's because of a "programming languages should be designed, not cobbled together" bias
<vish> doctormo: i'm in \o/
<doctormo> good
<doctormo> thorwil: I didn't know you were a wizard of the Turing art
<thorwil> heh
<thorwil> doctormo: not that i currently could manage to do anything useful with them, but smalltalk, lisp and haskell appeal to my sense of beauty. where php is far on the other side
<doctormo> thorwil: Done any perl code poetry?
<thorwil> nope. just yesterday i had a look at perl basics and was put off by its modality
<vish> hrmm, when trying to view ..files/user/#  i get these errors..  "cchost.js (5): SyntaxError: unterminated regular expression literal"
<vish> ha, daker is here..!
<daker> vish, ?
<vish> daker: you like php right?
<daker> it depends ã
<vish> daker: well, we were having problems in the artowl and it's open id.. so looking for someone who can look into it.. ;)
<daker> vish, i'll be back in less than 1 hour then we can see ã
<vish> ;)
<vish> there are too many headers and kinda confusing right now.. thorwil / doctormo any suggestions to cleanup those headers?
<vish>  /home is a deadspace..
<thorwil> vish: perhaps one start page that could contain news, status, picks. can be called "Home"
<thorwil> and then just "Assets" and maybe "People"
<doctormo> vish: The cchost was moved from php4 to php5 by force, pliea2 did an upgrade to lucid on her server and we're stuck with php5 now.
<vish> doctormo: so, no possibility of fixing that openID ?  then we should remove the option atleast..
<doctormo> vish: It's beyond my ability at the moment.
<doctormo> But someone else might.
<doctormo> It's all on launchpad
<vish> cool..
<doctormo> https://code.launchpad.net/~owlers/ubuntu-learning-materials/art-website
<doctormo> It's got a sync too, so when code is pushed in the website should get updated
<thorwil> try a call for help on ubuntu-artwork or maybe better ubuntu-web list?
<vish> yea..  daker said he'd be back in an hour.. or if not we can ask iain to get richard to look at it.. if all else fails, then we could use the list..
<vish> doctormo / thorwil: we could give richard an admin access and he'd proabably help getting it setup for the submissions too
<doctormo> vish: Sure, can you give access from your admin account?
<vish> doctormo: yea, i guess.. but wanted to ask first. i'd have to talk to iain tomorrow again..
<daker> vish, back!
<daker> what's the problem ?
<vish> daker: so the artowl code is here > https://code.launchpad.net/~owlers/ubuntu-learning-materials/art-website
<vish> daker: we cant use OpenID to login right now..
<daker> aie
<vish> daker: the error you kept getting..
<vish> daker: so <doctormo> vish: ok looks like openid won't be working. I've taken out the errors, but now it does nothing and that's about as far as my php goes.
<vish> daker: right now, we either need to fix that error or not offer open id for login..
<daker> ok
<vish> fixing is always better ;)
<daker> i'll see what i can do
<vish> daker: thanks.
<daker> doctormo, vish  what does owl mean ?
<vish> daker: it was the name for the learning site
<vish> daker: the Ubuntu learning material
<vish> i think it has the owl logo as well..
<doctormo> daker: https://code.launchpad.net/~owlers/ubuntu-learning-materials/art-website as deployed on http://art.ubuntu-owl.com
<daker> doctormo, ok
<daker> doctormo, can you check the apache logs and paste it somewhere ?
<daker> !logs
<ubot2> Official channel logs can be found at http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/ . LoCo channels are now logged there too; for older LoCo channel logs, see http://logs.ubuntu-eu.org/freenode/
<doctormo> daker: apache logs? will they contain useful php stuff?
<daker> doctormo, if there was an error if should appear in the apache logs
<daker> s/if/it
<doctormo> I will have to ask to make sure it's ok to transmit them.
<daker> doctormo, i don't want all the logs, just try to login using the openid then transmit the correspondent lined from the logs
<daker> s/lined/lines
#ubuntu-artwork 2010-12-23
<thorwil> good morning!
<kwwii> moin thorwil
<coz_> hey all
<darkmatter> moin coz_
<coz_> darkmatter,  hey guy ..morning to you :)
<darkmatter> so how is coz_ this cold and brrrrr-y morning?
<coz_> darkmatter,  yes it is brrr... its  28 degrees this morning... i am well ...just woke up about 1/2 hour ago and only had some hot cocoa..for breakfast.... how are you?  you didnt almost break your face again ?
<coz_> :)
<darkmatter> lol. no. no face breakage today :P woke up around 3:30 (I'm messed up like that. circadian rhythm? never heard of it). no breakfast today. stomach is still reeling from supper. I am however about to begin my daily caffeine dialysis ;)
<coz_> :)
<coz_> darkmatter,  according to organic  food eaters... a good  organic coffee enema  does wonders  :)
<darkmatter> hehe. I prefer hole a to hole b, but thanks anyway
<coz_> :)
<coz_> darkmatter,   on this screenshot    http://dl.dropbox.com/u/132551/screenshots/darkmatter.jpg    which icons are those?  yours?
<darkmatter> coz_: nope. those would  be http://tiheum.deviantart.com/art/Faenza-Icons-173323228 (I'll be starting my own after I get more gtk work done on the theme-ie thingie I'm starting)
<coz_> darkmatter,  ah ok... I like the panel icons  .. not sure about the rest
<coz_> darkmatter,  i suppose I could edit things  if I get enthusiastic :)
<darkmatter> coz_: I normally strip out the mono bits (panels and toolbars) and replace the rest, just haven't gotten around to it on uby yet (like I had done on suse etc. I like to mix and match stuff for kicks :P)
<coz_> darkmatter,  ok yeah ... I guess I can do that
<coz_> darkmatter,  I hate gtk theme editing :)
<darkmatter> coz_: last install was those + sonar + flurry (osx... for the apps). kinda looked decent for frankenicons http://darkmatter333.deviantart.com/#/d2vte41
<coz_> cool
<kwwii> heading out for a long holiday weekend...have fun!
<doctormo> Anyone seen daker today?
<thorwil> doctormo: hi! well, his nick, quitting about 50 minutes ago
<doctormo> thorwil: drat,
<doctormo> On the bus now, so was going to do some work
<doctormo> thorwil: How are you?
<thorwil> doctormo: fine. looking forward to a day with extended family. and you?
<doctormo> thorwil: looking forward to getting to the Republic of Vermont soon
<doctormo> these trips are always so tiring, there aren't any trains you see.
<thorwil> several hour greyhound bus trip?
<thorwil> hi daker! doctormo was looking for you
<daker> hi thorwil
<doctormo> daker: hey, you wanted logs?
<daker> doctormo, if it's possible
<daker> doctormo, i have installed cchost yesterday + your files, and i am still looking at it
<doctormo> daker: thanks, i'll get you those now
<doctormo> OK as I thought, I don't have permissions to the log files.
<daker> Woo ã
<daker> doctormo, don't worry
<doctormo> daker: Do you have a launchpad account?
<daker> ~adnane002
<doctormo> daker: OK you've been added to the ubuntu owl team
<doctormo> this should give you commit access, be careful with it as it syncs to the live website once a day.
<daker> doctormo, ok
<daker> doctormo, i'll will not commit until it's working
<daker> oh fail!
<doctormo> daker: You're of course enciouraged to commit often, just don't push until it's working ;-)
<daker> ã
<doctormo> daker: Are you aware of the changes I made to the cchost code? mainly to do with svg handling.
<thorwil> daker: my log indicates you missed: <doctormo> daker: Are you aware of the changes I made to the cchost code? mainly to do with svg handling.
<thorwil> good night! :)
#ubuntu-artwork 2010-12-24
<troy_s> vish: Greets Vishy.
<vish> troy_s: hey..
<vish> thorwil: look who said "We should discuss these further before adding them as tasks for the team."  https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-art/2010-November/012539.html
 * vish was cleaning inbox.. ;)
<vish> thorwil: ha, your brainstorm logo reply was funny though ;p
<thorwil> vish: heh. yeah, fist in my pocket and grin on my face
 * thorwil only allows a handful of emails as reminders to stay in his inbox
#ubuntu-artwork 2010-12-25
<thorwil> ho ho ho!
#ubuntu-artwork 2010-12-26
<thorwil> vish: interesting stance regarding trolls and handling a growing community: http://perl6advent.wordpress.com/2010/12/24/day-24-yule-the-ancient-troll-tide-carol/
 * vish clicks..
<vish> thorwil: true â¦ exactly why i keep saying people waste their energy on OMG comments (trolling) , they have the energy but waste it â¦ they need a direction.  if i OMG was famous when i started looking at Ubuntu I would not have done any work ;p
<thorwil> heh
<thorwil> vish: but omg is bad position and bad vector, then. all that's left is a little acceleration :}
<vish> s/if i/if
<vish> thorwil: yea.. i see why they(admins) do what they do.. but it's their pref
<vish> which is kinda sad..
<vish> thorwil: john seems to have gone missing ;)
<thorwil> vish: silence during these last days of the year doesn't mean a lot, though
<vish> yea..
<vish> thorwil: looks like you too have stopped logging into the u-manual channel.. ;)
<thorwil> vish: hmm? i'm still in that channel. there just doesn't happen much and i say even less
<vish> thorwil: oh i wasnt there! :;D
<thorwil> that project needs a new leader, fresh blood and better infrastructure :/
<vish> ah! ha! i was looking at #ayatana and got mixed..
<vish> thorwil: godbyk seems to be holding it together..
<thorwil> vish: yes. and it will die once he becomes unavailable
<vish> yea..
<coz_> be back a bit later,,, need to go to store
