#ubuntu-classroom 2006-12-11
<nezemo> hi
<jrib> ok let's do this step by step
<PuRu> erm
<jrib> are you at a terminal prompt now?
<PuRu> i'm gonna have to start with a damn reinstall
<PuRu> no i cant get in one anymore :s
<jrib> what happens now?
<PuRu> only file i've modified = xorg.conf
<PuRu> sorry i start to think edgy = crap
<PuRu> dapper didnt do this kind of stuff
<PuRu> i just see a cursos on the top left
<jrib> does ctrl-alt-f1 do anything?
<PuRu> yeah
<jrib> you get a terminal now?
<PuRu> why doesn't it ask to log in :s
<PuRu> yeah yeah i'm logged on now
<PuRu> its just too weird that ubuntu doesnt ask to log in on itself :s
<jrib> ok do this:
<jrib> apt-cache policy xserver-xorg-video-nv
<PuRu> done
<jrib> what does it say for "Installed:"
<PuRu> 1.1.2.0
<PuRu> 1:1.2.0-0ubuntu2
<Crabman> are there only linux users ther???
<jrib> Crabman: where?
<nalioth> Crabman: may we help you?
<Crabman> it's the first time i go on a irc
<jrib> PuRu: when you reconfigured X, which driver did you choose?
<PuRu> lol Crabman
<PuRu> nv because i know for sure that that one works, i can try again with vesa
<jrib> PuRu: what does this command say:
<jrib> grep EE /var/log/Xorg.0.log
<Crabman> i want to find a chat room with mac users do you have an adress?
<nalioth> Crabman: ##apple
<Crabman> thank you very much
<PuRu> jrib, just a sec i allready tried again with vesa
<jrib> ok
<PuRu> gonna reboot first, then see what your command returns
<PuRu> (reboot command = ?)
<Crabman> how can you find these serveur
<jrib> PuRu: sudo shutdown -r now
<PuRu> thanx
<jrib> PuRu: wait
<jrib> PuRu: no need to restart, just do:  sudo invoke-rc.d gdm restart
<PuRu> too late lol
<PuRu> *praying for vesa driver to work*
<PuRu> :-)
<PuRu> vesa working
<PuRu> finally a GUI again
<nalioth> vesa always works  :)
<PuRu> i know lol
<PuRu> but nv normally also allways works on my lap...
<PuRu> i ran macosx86 with vesa too
<PuRu> and i actually couldnt complain about the 2D speed of the GUI
<PuRu> but i really need the nvidia driver because i need my tv-out to be able to VJ with linux
<PuRu> (i use gephex)
<jrib> pastebin xorg.conf and Xorg.0.log
<PuRu> ok
<jrib> hmm well the log won't be helpful since it shows us the working one now I guess
<PuRu> *installs xchat*
<jrib> PuRu: I can't remember, you said this was an edgy upgrade?
<PuRu> no upgrade
<PuRu> clean install
<PuRu> (but multiboot with grub)
<jrib> https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+source/xorg/+bug/67272 this is the error you got?
<PuRu> :-O is that vesa 1.0 i'm using now?
<PuRu> damn its slow
<PuRu> your link:
<PuRu> Page not found
<PuRu> Theres no page with this address in Launchpad.
<jrib> it is a liar
<PuRu> lol indeed
<jrib> check to make sure you copied the whole thing maybe
<PuRu> i accidentally pasted your text behind it
<PuRu> lol found it allready
<PuRu> no no
<PuRu> it was booting fine
<PuRu> untill i installed the nvidia-glx driver
<PuRu> and it is NOT an update
<PuRu> its a clean install of edgy
<PuRu> (but multiboot)
<jrib> ok pastebin the two xorg.conf files you are working with
<jrib> nv and nvidia
<PuRu> OMFG
<PuRu> i cant type #anymore
<PuRu> told u the standard wouldnt be good for me lol
<PuRu> my alt doesnt work anymore
<PuRu> and i dunno what kind of keyboard i have
<jrib> that's ok you won't be using this too long
<PuRu> getting superpissed off here
<PuRu> i cant evne use irc... :s
<jrib> (hopefully)
<nalioth> a state of superpisstivity isn't gonna help at all
<nalioth> got take the dog for a walk (or just yourself)  :)
<PuRu_> i copy pasted it from a website i searched with google...
<PuRu_> damn this is annoying
<PuRu_> pastebins comming up
<PuRu_> http://ubuntu.pastebin.com/pastebin.php
<PuRu_> grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr
<PuRu_> wrong url
<PuRu_> ubuntu pastebins suck, i'll use others
<jrib> I'm about to try full screen video on beryl so my computer may crash, if I leave I'll be right back
<PuRu_> offcourse
<PuRu_> i think this is just not my day
<PuRu_> the pastebin doesnt want to
<PuRu_> http://paste.uni.cc/12138
<PuRu_> *cheers, opens bottle of champagne because he was able to paste something*
<jrib> but we know this one works, we need to look at nv and nvidia
<PuRu> lol
<PuRu> so what do i need to do?
<PuRu> i'm getting really stressfull lol
<PuRu> gonna smoke a nice spliff and return chill
<jrib> ok
<PuRu> i still need to roll so you can allready tell me what i need to do :-)
<PuRu> btw: i just saw nvidia-glx = still installed
<jrib> do you still have the old xorg.conf's saved?
<jrib> lets try to get nvidia to work I guess
<PuRu> yeah but they didnt work :(
<jrib> since that is what you want
<PuRu> it was the auto backup...
<jrib> ok, pastebin that
<PuRu> if i find it
<PuRu> i made sure u had them under winxp
<PuRu> (i use partitionmagic to browse and edit my linux partition under xp)
<jrib> oh did you pastebin them before?
<PuRu> nope :(
<PuRu> but i see soem more backups
<PuRu> xorg.conf.1234567...
<PuRu> 1234567... = a long number
<PuRu> is an example offcourse
<jrib> apt-cache policy linux-restricted-modules-common linux-restricted-modules-$(uname -r)
<jrib> try that, make sure they are both installed
<PuRu> wich should both be installed?
<jrib> yeah
<PuRu_> http://paste.uni.cc/12139
<PuRu> but...
<PuRu> they should both be installed
<PuRu> what's they?
<jrib> yeah they should both be installed, that's not the reason
<PuRu> how large are the chances this can be solved?
<PuRu> because i've trown away hours and hours of my day today :(
<PuRu> without any result
<jrib> I recommend doing  'sudo nvidia-glx-config enable' and then trying to restart X.  When it fails, copy /var/log/Xorg.0.log and /etc/X11/xorg.conf somewhere so you can pastebin them.  Then switch back to vesa and pastebin them
<PuRu> if i open them in windows notepad fucks them up
<PuRu> if i paste them then its unreadable
<PuRu_> ward@ward-laptop:~$ sudo nvidia-glx-config enable
<PuRu_> Error: unable to load nvidia kernel driver! Be sure to have installed
<PuRu_> the nvidia driver for your running kernel.
<jrib> apt-cache policy nvidia-glx
<PuRu_> http://paste.uni.cc/12141
<PuRu> oh btw, i use a dutch ubuntu
<PuRu> i just saw some dutch words in there
<jrib> uname -a
<PuRu_> Linux ward-laptop 2.6.17-10-386 #2 Fri Oct 13 18:41:40 UTC 2006 i686 GNU/Linux
<jrib> ok that's interesting
<jrib> PuRu_: sudo apt-get update && sudo apt-get upgrade
<PuRu_> is working
<PuRu> i'll tell u when its done
<jrib> ok
<jrib> say my name so I look at the channel
<PuRu> jrib: sorry lol
<jrib> ?
<cafuego_> puru: nee, er wordt hier nooit nederlands gesproken.
<jrib> I mean when it's done :)
<PuRu> jrib: this machine = windoze, the other is ubuntu, i dont see the linew colored under windoze
<jrib> oh no we have lost ubotu
<PuRu> lol
<PuRu> jrib: is my system updating?
<jrib> you tell me
<PuRu> lol
<PuRu> i guess
<PuRu> is the command for updating?
<jrib> it should be upgrading linux-restricted-momdules-common
<PuRu> is doing that
<PuRu> why did you ask me to do that?
<PuRu> just trying to comprehend
<jrib> yes, for updating the package list and then upgrading packages to their latest version
<PuRu> aha, nice
<jrib> PuRu: because you had nvidia-glx and restricted-modules-$(uname -r) for a different version than linux-restricted-modules-common
<PuRu> it indeed told me that at some point
<PuRu> but i didnt understand it because i followed the tutorial
<PuRu> (and it wasnt rocketscience either)
<PuRu> updates are done
#ubuntu-classroom 2006-12-12
<jrib> do that nvidia config command
<PuRu> sudo nvidia-glx-config enable ?
<jrib> yep
<PuRu_> sudo nvidia-glx-config enable
<PuRu_> oops wrong paste
<PuRu_> ward@ward-laptop:~$ sudo nvidia-glx-config enable
<PuRu_> Error: unable to load nvidia kernel driver! Be sure to have installed
<PuRu_> the nvidia driver for your running kernel.
<jrib> sudo rmmod nvidia && sudo modprobe nvidia
<PuRu_> ward@ward-laptop:~$ sudo rmmod nvidia && sudo modprobe nvidia
<PuRu_> ERROR: Module nvidia does not exist in /proc/modules
<jrib> ok
<jrib> sudo modprobe nvidia
<PuRu_> ward@ward-laptop:~$ sudo modprobe nvidia
<PuRu_> Not loading nvidia module; not used in /etc/X11/xorg.conf
<PuRu_> jrib:
<jrib> ok now does   sudo nvidia-glx-config enable  ?
<PuRu_> Error: unable to load nvidia kernel driver! Be sure to have installed
<PuRu_> the nvidia driver for your running kernel.
<PuRu_> lol
* jrib is confused
<PuRu> told u my system is pissing me off
* jrib whispers quietly to PuRu , reboot
<PuRu> reboot is not gonna change anything lol
<jrib> humor me please
<PuRu> is rebooting
<jrib> I'm pretty sure the problem was that package with a different version
<jrib> I just don't know enough about modules to load that up the right way...
<PuRu> rebooted
<PuRu> anyone else here who knows this?
<jrib> ok  sudo nvidia-glx-config enable
<PuRu> just a sec
<PuRu> let me open xchat
<PuRu_> back
<PuRu_> what i still dont understand is how can i install a wrong version if i follow the tutorial
<PuRu_> ?
<PuRu_> Error: unable to load nvidia kernel driver! Be sure to have installed
<PuRu_> the nvidia driver for your running kernel.
<jrib> it's not that you installed the wrong version, it's taht the package didn't get upgraded for some reason
<jrib> apt-cache policy linux-restricted-modules-common
<jrib> what version is installed?
<PuRu> 6.10
<PuRu> edgy
<jrib> I mean that the commands returns for linux-restricted-modules-common
<PuRu_> he cant find the packet "linux-respricted-modules-commo"
<jrib> put an 'n' at the end
<PuRu_> literally commo
<PuRu_> linux-restricted-modules-common:
<PuRu_>   Genstalleerd: 2.6.17.6-1
<PuRu_>   Kandidaat: 2.6.17.6-1
<PuRu_>   Versietabel:
<PuRu_>  *** 2.6.17.6-1 0
<PuRu_>         500 http://security.ubuntu.com edgy-security/restricted Packages
<PuRu_>         100 /var/lib/dpkg/status
<PuRu_>      2.6.17.5-11 0
<PuRu_>         500 http://be.archive.ubuntu.com edgy/restricted Packages
<PuRu> sorry for the long paste, wanted to spare some time
<PuRu> pastebins seem slow
<jrib> ok, sudo apt-get remove nvidia-glx && sudo apt-get install nvidia-glx
<PuRu> genstalleerd = installed
<PuRu> kandidaat = candidate
<PuRu> versietabel = veriontable
<PuRu> versiontable
<PuRu_> is working
<jrib> PuRu_: are you using the generic kernel?
<PuRu> 386 i believe
<PuRu> i dunno the difference
<PuRu> shall i reboot to make sure i choose for 386?
<jrib> no, generic should be it
<jrib> Some people on the forums had this same problem and they needed to use generic
<PuRu> i'll reboot and make sure i choose generic then
<jrib> k
<jrib> I assumed I was using generic, but apparently I'm not... strange
<PuRu> rebooted :-)
<jrib> uname -a   says generic now?
<PuRu_> back
<PuRu_> yes it says generic
<PuRu> sorry my dad came in
<PuRu> spliff is ready
<jrib> ok hopefully that command works now
<PuRu> time for a ganjabreak
<PuRu> wich command?
<jrib> sudo nvidia-glx-config enable
<PuRu_> nope doesnt work lol
<PuRu> brb
<jrib> :/
<PuRu> reinstall?
<PuRu> if so i set it up to reinstall while i'm smoking
<jrib> apt-cache policy linux-restricted-modules-$(uname -r)
<PuRu> or shall i uninstall the nvidia-glx?
<PuRu> since its the wrong version :s
<PuRu> lol anyway brb
<PuRu> cant wait any longer
<jrib> heh ok
<jrib> hmm maybe it's nvidia-xconfig
<PuRu_> jrib: back
<PuRu> you mean as a command? "nvidia-xconfig"
<jrib> PuRu: yeah
<jrib> I just read that that's the new way to do it in edgy
<jrib> (in the wiki)
<PuRu> i just did it
<jrib> but make sure linux-restricted-modules-$(uname -r) is installed
<PuRu> sudo nvidia-xconfig
<PuRu> lol then i did ctrl-alt-backspace
<jrib> ok did it work?
<PuRu> now i get a black screen after getting a cursus on the left top
<jrib> alright hit ctrl-alt-f1 and   apt-cache policy linux-restricted-modules-$(uname -r)
<PuRu> so no it didnt work :p
<PuRu> ctrl-alt-f1 didnt work
<PuRu> it was really a crash lol
<PuRu> i'm rebooting
<PuRu> i thought linux didnt crash fast :p
<jrib> maye the kernel
<jrib> X is easy to crash
<PuRu> damn lol
<PuRu> reboot does nothing
<PuRu> ctrl-alt-delete either
<PuRu> start with a fresh install maybe?
<PuRu> i think ubuntu is quite fucked up by now :p
<jrib> heh go for it
<PuRu> its done pretty fast anyway
<PuRu> and then we're 100% sure i got a standard ubuntu edgy
<PuRu> i work at a helpdesk (for windoze pc's, general home users) and we often start from scratch becasue thats the only way to be sure when something keeps going wrong
<PuRu> *installing*
<PuRu> jrib: any idea why it didnt work the first time when i used the tutorial?
<jrib> maybe because you didn't have the generic kernel loaded
<jrib> or maybe not
<jrib> no I'm not really sure why it didn't work
<PuRu> that can be
<PuRu> that i didnt load the generic kernel
<PuRu> well now i got time for a new spliff while it installs :-)
<PuRu> got a car accident today, kinda have a bad day lol
<PuRu> and then ubuntu that keeps refusing to work with the nvidia driver on my system
<jrib> oh, you alright?
<PuRu> yeah, but the car = f*cked up
<PuRu> radiator = dead, airco radiator = also dead
<PuRu> front bumper = dead, front lights are dead, the hood = bend, ...
<jrib> well they happen, good thing is you are alright
<PuRu> yeah but still
<PuRu> i was gonna buy my own car
<PuRu> now i'm not gonna have moeny to by my own
<PuRu> because some idiot is parked in the middle of the street
<PuRu> i start to hate idiotic people more and more each day
<PuRu> every day at work nothing but idiots that call me...
<PuRu> on the road nothing but idiots that do stupid manouvres
<PuRu> this world is completely filled with idiots...
<PuRu> jrib: files are copying :-)
<jrib> cool
<PuRu> my guess is he's ready in 20minutes at most
<cntb> o/
<unix_infidel> what's this weeks session on?
<unix_infidel> the wik is sort of out of date.
<jrib> unix_infidel: atm I'm not sure we have an instructor
<PuRu> omg lol
<PuRu> the installer seems crashed!
<unix_infidel> what's the topic even :P
<unix_infidel> ?
<PuRu> just when i thought i had seen it all
<jrib> unix_infidel: The Linux Kernel
<PuRu> lol its my drive
<PuRu> the contact is bad lately
<PuRu> just glad its not my HD :-)
<PuRu> voila, working again
<jrib> unix_infidel: ok update, we do have an instructor
<PuRu> are there actually lessons given here or is this just the channel for n00bs?
<cntb> \o
<cntb> so room is not ghost town any more?
<tonyyarusso> Varies widely cntb .
<tonyyarusso> People are becoming more aware, which is fantastic.
* cntb trying to spread the word in vicinity
<cntb> well
<jrib> PuRu: there are actual lessons, see the schedule in the topic
* tonyyarusso looks when the next one is supposed to be
<jrib> this weekend!
<tonyyarusso> sweet
<jrib> tonyyarusso: what do you think sysadmin 101 entails?
<tonyyarusso> jrib: No idea...probably not too hard though if it's 101
<LjL> jrib: chown/chmod? :P
<LjL> perhaps adduser
<tonyyarusso> jrib: You volunteering?
<jrib> tonyyarusso: well I don't know what exactly I would teach.  But I wouldn't mind learning something new over the next couple of weeks so I could teach it
<LjL> you can teach that, trust me :P
<tonyyarusso> jrib: Awesome.  I'll bet we could get some folks to guide you along too.  There's a mailing list - could ask there.
<tonyyarusso> jrib: new_user_mentors@lists.novarata.net
* tonyyarusso ponders the "advanced" one
<jrib> I'm a member :)
<tonyyarusso> I don't personally consider myself "advanced", but I do run a server for kicks, so depending what they mean I might be able to handle that.
<jrib> I don't think i ever get any mail from that list though
<jrib> PuRu_: working?
<PuRu_> is reinstalling
<PuRu_> yeah the contact of the drive is a bit bad
<PuRu_> sometimes it doesnt work
<PuRu_> the cd drive
<PuRu_> jrib: installed / rebooting :-)
<jrib> gl
<PuRu_> ubuntu = installed lol
<PuRu_> not the driver
<PuRu_> booting generic mode
<PuRu_> (this was the only mode right now is that normal?)
<jrib> the generic kernel, yeah
<PuRu_> allright, i'm booted :-)
<PuRu_> now what to do lol?
<PuRu_> jirib:
<jrib> PuRu_: ?
<tonyyarusso> !nickspam | Limulf
<ubotu> Limulf: You should avoid changing your nick in a busy channel like #ubuntu - it causes unrequired scrolling which is unfair on new users. The same goes for using noisy away messages (see !Away for more details): use the command "/away <reason>" to set your client away silently
<tonyyarusso> (Not a very busy channel, but still, pick one ;)  )
<Limulf> Sorry a lot, i'll keep that in mind :-)
<PuRu_> jrib: what can i try to make ubuntu install teh correct version?
<PuRu_> or anyone else
<jrib> PuRu_: the wiki instructions should work, just install nvidia-glx and the restricted modules for your kernel
<PuRu_> last time i did that exactly
<PuRu_> so i assume this time it wont work
<PuRu_> but it did it wit synaptic
<PuRu_> can that matther?
<jrib> last time you had the other kernel remember?  I found some people on the forums with the same issue
<jrib> so first, install linux-restricted-modules for your kernel
<PuRu_> wich command please?
<PuRu_> (or tutorial if its more then one command)
<jrib> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/BinaryDriverHowto/Nvidia
<jrib> sudo aptitude install linux-restricted-modules-generic
<PuRu_> lol i allready did that last time
<PuRu_> but not the command
<PuRu_> "In the Software Preferences dialog that comes up, click the Add button."
<PuRu_> no add button in the screen that pops up
<jrib> PuRu_: you should have a checkbox for restricted
<PuRu_> its just to enable all the packets?
<PuRu_> if so then i know what u mean and did it
<jrib> k
<PuRu_> yeah its the one i mean
<PuRu_> i did that last time too
<PuRu_> sould i do the command too?
<jrib> that should let you install linux-restricted-modules-generic
<PuRu_> the install went fine
<PuRu_> last time
<PuRu_> no errors or anything
<jrib> k
<PuRu_> it was after the install
<jrib> what card is this by the way?
<PuRu_> 420 go with 32mb
<PuRu_> (toshiba sattelite pro m10)
<jrib> ok should work, I have a similar card
<PuRu_> its not legacy, i checked
<jrib> 440 go
<PuRu_> what do u have?
<PuRu_> i do this command right: sudo aptitude install linux-restricted-modules-generic
<PuRu_> ?
<jrib> yeah, assuming 'uname -a' says you are running generic
<PuRu_> ok did "sudo aptitude install linux-restricted-modules-generic"
<PuRu_> and its finished
<PuRu_> now just install nvidia-glx trough synaptic?
<PuRu_> or something else first?
<jrib> just nvidia-glx
<jrib> you can use aptitude for that too if you want
<PuRu_> too late lol
<jrib> same thing
<PuRu_> i just did sudo synaptic and then marked nvidia-glx
<jrib> k
<PuRu_> and then installed offcourse
<jrib> after it finishes, sudo nvidia-xconfig
<PuRu_> it takes longer then last time i think
<PuRu_> sudo nvidia-xconfig = done
<PuRu_> what's next?
<jrib> ctrl-alt-backspace
<PuRu_> *prays*
<PuRu_> bang "failed to start x-server"
<jrib> seriously?
<PuRu_> lol yeah
<PuRu_> i'm looking at the ugly blue screen right now
<PuRu_> wtf can be the problem lol
<PuRu_> i don't get it
<jrib> cp /var/log/Xorg.0.log ~/Desktop   , restore your backup xorg.conf and pastebin that
<PuRu_> cp /var/log/Xorg.0.log ~/Desktop what does this command do?
<jrib> copies the Xorg.0.log to your desktop
<PuRu_> what are the commands to restore please?
<PuRu_> allways do this kind of stuff with x lol
<jrib> ls /etc/X11/xorg.conf*    should list some files, what are they?
<PuRu_> ls is one of the few commands i do know :-)
<PuRu_> conf and conf.backup
<PuRu_> i copy the xorg.conf to desktop and then rename the other one i assume
<jrib> PuRu_: sudo cp /etc/X11/xorg.conf /etc/X11/xorg.conf.broken && sudo cp /etc/X11/xorg.conf.backup /etc/X11/xorg.conf
<jrib> you could do that as well if you prefer
<PuRu_> did it all
<PuRu_> x = command to start x right?
<tonyyarusso> PuRu_: startx
<jrib> sudo invoke-rc.d gdm restart
<tonyyarusso> or that
<PuRu_> oh yeah :-)
<tonyyarusso> Actually, I'd go with the gdm method unless you have a reason not to
<jrib> tonyyarusso: does he need to reboot after install nvidia-glx?
<tonyyarusso> jrib: Not a clue.  Try restarting X, if that doesn't work, then assume yes and see what happens ;0
<tonyyarusso> ;) even
<PuRu_> ok gui working
<jrib> ok well at least nv still works for you this time
<PuRu_> but with the old xorg.conf lol
<PuRu_> lol
<jrib> ok pastebin xorg.conf and Xorg.0.log on your desktop
<PuRu_> how can this be possible?
<PuRu_> ok
<PuRu_> just a sec i'll install xchat
<PuRu> voila
<PuRu> http://paste.uni.cc/12144
<PuRu> thats the log
<PuRu> xorg.conf : http://paste.uni.cc/12145
<PuRu_> thats the xorg.conf that made x crash
<PuRu_> and the log was also copyed to desktop before i restored the backup
<PuRu_> anything unusual?
<jrib> ok lets check the usual first,    apt-cache policy linux-restricted-modules-common linux-restricted-modules-$(uname -r) nvidia-glx
<jrib> make sure the version number match up
<PuRu> results: http://paste.uni.cc/12146
<PuRu> jrib: (just because i forgot your name lol)
<jrib> agh they are different
<PuRu_> thats good news then thats the problem :-)
<jrib> sudo apt-get update && sudo apt-get upgrade
<PuRu_> is it fixable?
<PuRu> is running
<jrib> reboot afterwards to make sure they get loaded
<PuRu> ok
<PuRu_> lol its funny to see the same irc text on 2 screens
<jrib> what is 'apt-cache policy nvidia-kernel-common' too while that is installing?
<PuRu_> just run that in another terminal?
<jrib> yeah
<PuRu> nvidia-kernel-common:
<PuRu>   Genstalleerd: 20051028+1ubuntu7
<PuRu>   Kandidaat: 20051028+1ubuntu7
<PuRu>   Versietabel:
<PuRu>  *** 20051028+1ubuntu7 0
<PuRu>         500 http://be.archive.ubuntu.com edgy/restricted Packages
<PuRu>         100 /var/lib/dpkg/status
<jrib> ok
<PuRu_> rebooting :-)
<PuRu_> i boot into generic?
<jrib> 2yep
<jrib> y/n?
<PuRu> back
<PuRu_> y/n what?
* jrib waits in suspense
<jrib> are you using nvidia?
<PuRu_> i dunno, don't think so
<PuRu_> i do ctrl-alt-backspace to test?
<jrib> oh we didn't do nvidia-xconfig
<jrib> heh
<PuRu_> so i do that one?
<jrib> yep
<PuRu_> and then ctrl-alt-backspace?
<jrib> yes
<PuRu_> black screen...
<PuRu_> ctrl-alt-F1 doesnt work
<PuRu_> i'm assuming linux crashed yet again?
<PuRu_> (at this point it crashes more then any windows i ever used)
<jrib> http://www.ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=293014
<PuRu_> the capslock doesnt evne work anymore so its crashed for sure
<jrib> http://www.ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?p=1700610#post1700610
<jrib> we can try that
<PuRu_> downgrading?
<PuRu_> i can't really find what u mean
<jrib> well we could try that as well
<PuRu_> what did u mean?
<PuRu_> i only read something about downgrading
<jrib> just reading through everything, those people seem to be having similar problems
<PuRu_> lol i give up
<PuRu_> i'll use windows to VJ
<jrib> D:
<jrib> lets try the two suggestions
<PuRu_> i cant even boot into linux no more...
<jrib> choose "recovery mode" from the grub menu and restore the backup
<PuRu_> can't try anything
<PuRu_> its 3:40 in teh morning here lol
<jrib> this is some kind of bug with the update
<jrib> there are many threads on the forums now that I am looking
<PuRu_> update from 6.06 to 6.10?
<jrib> oh I thought you were in 6.10
<PuRu_> i am in 6.10
<PuRu_> so i can't use the nvidia driiver with ubuntu?
<PuRu_> of not with any linux?
<jrib> you can, this is almost certainly a bug with this package
<jrib> lets downgrade to the earlier versions
<PuRu_> if u know how
<PuRu_> and if it doesnt take too long
<jrib> apt-cache policy linux-restricted-modules-common linux-restricted-modules-$(uname -r) nvidia-glx   again please
<PuRu_> because its getting late lol
<PuRu_> erm
<PuRu_> i cant even start x yet
<jrib> ok, let me find it in the scrollback
<PuRu_> replacing didnt work
<PuRu_> but i can't start x yet
<PuRu_> fucking xorg.conf is dead again
<PuRu_> why does the fuicking backup not work :s
<LjL> !language
<ubotu> Please watch your language and keep this channel family friendly.
<PuRu_> its impossible
<jrib> LjL: you know anything about this nvidia-glx problem?  There are a few threads on the forums but I don't remember it
<jrib> PuRu_: can you get to the recovery mode prompt ok?
<PuRu_> i can get to the normal prompt ok now
<LjL> jrib: summarize?
<PuRu_> but still no x
<jrib> LjL: he installs nvidia-glx and has linux-restricted-* but X refuses to start
<jrib> http://paste.uni.cc/12145 xorg.conf and http://paste.uni.cc/12144 log
<jrib> and I get a page full of search results on the forums, but I'm not really sure of a solution.  Most recommend installing the beta driver... was going to try downgrading now
<LjL> jrib: shouldn't that use nvidia-glx-legacy?
<PuRu_> nope
<jrib> not according to the nvidia site, and I have a similar card
<PuRu_> i checked that, at first i followed the tutorial
<PuRu_> but that didnt work so i came to ask here
<PuRu_> and i'm 100% sure its a 420 go :-)
<LjL> haven't got a clue
<jrib> http://doc.gwos.org/index.php/Latest_Nvidia_Edgy#PROBLEMS_SECTION mentions our cards PuRu_ though I never did that and mine worked
<jrib> number 7 of the problems
<PuRu_> what card do u have?
<PuRu_> i'm gonna try this tomorrow
<PuRu_> i'm too tired and need to work tomorrow
<PuRu_> its 4 in the morning here
<jrib> I have the 440
<jrib> GeForce4 440 Go
<jrib> easy way to downgrade would be to disable the security repository, remove nvidia-glx and the restricted packages and then install them again
<jrib> in case you want to try that too
<PuRu_> lol i'm even too tired to comprehend what you just typed
<PuRu_> well i'm off to bed
<jrib> night, hope you figure it out
<PuRu_> i'll stay online, should u read something about it, please tell it here if i'm not disconnected yet
<PuRu_> night night people
<jrib> joeshmo: hello
<joeshmo> hello
<joeshmo> i think my fstab is real messed up
<jrib> hmm, why?
<joeshmo> it still has old ntfs lines in it
<joeshmo> i got rid of those partitions and made them ext3
<jrib> pastebin please
<joeshmo> pastebin?
<jrib> !pastebin
<ubotu> pastebin is a service to post large texts so you don't flood the channel. The Ubuntu pastebin is at http://paste.ubuntu-nl.org (be sure to give the URL of your paste - see also the #ubuntu channel topic)
<monoxide> is it true linux can write on a fat 32 partition
<jrib> monoxide: yes
<monoxide> kool ill have to convert my NTSF then
<joeshmo> http://paste.ubuntu-nl.org/36584/
<jrib> monoxide: windows can read and write to ext3 if you install the fs-driver
<monoxide> fat32 seem easier
<monoxide> i just have existing data from my old windows install
<jrib> fat32 doesn't support linux permissions however
<monoxide> I am going to just be using linux for now but I might soon go back to windows
<jrib> joeshmo: "interesting"
<jrib> monoxide: nope, you'll never go back
<joeshmo> see
<joeshmo> its because i used pysdm
<joeshmo> it made all new lines
<joeshmo> i want to start over
<jrib> did it/you make a backup?
<joeshmo> theres 2 backups here
<joeshmo> idk if i made them
<joeshmo> or it
<joeshmo> but they are the same
<joeshmo> should i just reinstall
<jrib> nah that's overkill
<jrib> pastebin the two backups
<joeshmo> http://paste.ubuntu-nl.org/36585/
<joeshmo> http://paste.ubuntu-nl.org/36586/
<joeshmo> before pydsm there was just the top part
<jrib> how about swap?
<joeshmo> swap is on /dev/hda5
<joeshmo> i have no NTFS now either
<jrib> ah i see it now
<joeshmo> but theres still lines for NTFS there
<jrib> ok, well just delete the ntfs lines does that resolve the problem?
<jrib> 18. /dev/hdd5                                  /media/hdd5     swap         sw                                  0  0
<jrib> 21. /dev/hda2                                  /media/hda2     swap         sw                                  0  0
<jrib> how about those?
<joeshmo> wait
<joeshmo> i deleted the hdd5 one
<joeshmo> its only hda2 now
<jrib> ok then maybe it's easier for you to delete all the ntfs, then go one by one with the ones below swap and keep what you have
<joeshmo> so what does this fstab do anywyas
<jrib> erm, below floppy
<joeshmo> i read if its not in fstab then only root can use it?
<jrib> joeshmo: it's the partitions that get mounted
<jrib> no, it just doesn't get mounted when you boot
<jrib> but yeah, only root can mount stuff not in fstab
<joeshmo> ok
<joeshmo> im just gonna delete it all and try doing it over with pydsm
<jrib> ok
<joeshmo> but what option would i have to put to make it read write
<joeshmo> rw?
<jrib> for ext3, just use permissions, don't use any fstab options
<joeshmo> ok
<joeshmo> permissions stay after reboot right
<jrib> yes
<joeshmo> ok im gonna try this pysdm with a new fstab
<joeshmo> backed up the old one
<joeshmo> how do i chmod or chown them tho
<joeshmo> i dont understand it
<joeshmo> how u use a number
<jrib> take care of mounting them first, then I'll give you a quick intro
<jrib> that way we can actually try it on what you've mounted
<joeshmo> ok ill be back
<joeshmo> hopefully
* jrib wodners why
<jrib> joepits: ok, your / is still in fstab?
<joepits> nooo
<joepits> no /
<jrib> make sure you have proc, /, swap, cdrom, floppy like your old one did
<jrib> joepits: why did you leave by the way?
<joepits> rebooted
<joepits> didnt have to right
<jrib> nope
<joepits> ok
<joepits> the old one had all 0 1
<joepits> the new one is all 0 0
<joepits> i should make it 0 1?
<jrib> no
<jrib> only / should be 0 1
<joepits> ok
<jrib> others should have a 2 instead of a 1 if you want them checked
<joepits> proc       /proc        proc  defaults  0  0
<joepits> /dev/hda1  /            ext3  defaults,errors=remount-ro   0  1
<joepits> /dev/hda2  /media/hda2  swap  defaults  0  0
<joepits> /dev/hdb1  /media/hdb1  ext3  defaults  0  0
<joepits> /dev/hdd1  /media/hdd1  ext3  defaults  0  0
<joepits> /dev/sda2  /media/sda2  vfat  defaults  0  0
<joepits> welll
<joepits> ill do that stuff later
<joepits> how do i chmod to make it so all users can touch them
<joepits> i got my terminal open
<jrib> swap and cdrom and floppy you are missing
<jrib> oh not swap...
<joepits> oh
<jrib> your swap looks different than your original, just copy what that one had
<joepits> http://paste.ubuntu-nl.org/36589/
<joepits> its pretty much the same as the old one but it doesnt have the UUID stuff idk what that is
<jrib> hda5 used to be your swap
<jrib> is that gone or something?
<joepits> ya i got rid of that a while ago
<joepits> do i just chmod 777
<jrib> ok so lets do that, but don't forget you are missing floppy and cdrom
<jrib> so if you have a permission like that with 3 numbers lets say 777
<jrib> then the first number applies to the owner
<jrib> the second number applies to the group
<jrib> the last number is for everyone else, "other"
<joepits> do i need a cdrom in there...
<joepits> if i put a cd in it works
<jrib> idk, it may mount it if you boot your computer wiht a cdrom in
<joepits> oh
<joepits> as for floppy, i cant find my cable
<jrib> k
<joepits> i dont really care about secuirty
<jrib> I would just put it in commented
<jrib> ok, so each number represents read, write, and execute permissions
<joepits> ok
<jrib> are you familiar with binary?
<joepits> a little
<jrib> ok, 100 do you know what that is in binary?
<joepits> no
<jrib> 1*2^2 + 0*2^1 + 0*2^0 = 4
<joepits> oh right
<jrib> 010 then is 0*2^2 + 1*2^1 + 0*2^0 = 2
<jrib> and 001 is 1
<jrib> now 7 is 4 + 2 + 1 = 111 in binary
<jrib> so you can think about it this way, the first spot in binary is read, the second is write, the last is execute
<jrib> or 4 is for read, 2 is for write, 1 is for execute
<joepits> wow
<jrib> if you want to give read and write, you add the numbers.  4+2=6
<jrib> notice in binary this is 110
<TheGilmanator> (Sorry to butt in, but it all makes sense now. It's taken me several years to get that. Thanks, jrib!)
<joepits> now whyd they do it that way
<joepits> just to be nerdy?
<jrib> well it's a concise way to represent it, idk why they did it that way
<joepits> so i want all users to read write and execute
<jrib> ok, what do you think it should be then?
<jrib> TheGilmanator: np :)
<joepits> 777
<TheGilmanator> jrib: I'll never have to look up a table again!
<jrib> right, 7 gives read write and execute.  And you have 7 for users, for group, and for others
<joepits> so i do that for the /dev/hdb1 etcetera
<joepits> or for the /media/hdb1
<jrib> just for the mount point
<jrib> sudo chmod 777 /media/hdb1
<jrib> chmod lets use easier ways to represent a permission as well
<jrib> like   a+rwx   means give users, groups, and others read write and execute permissions
<joepits> ok
<joepits> lost and found
<joepits> i cant get in there still but thas because its a root only thing?
<jrib> hmm I'm not sure if permissions amtter or not, but you shouldn't use it.  It's for the filesystem
<joepits> ok
<joepits> well as long as i can put my files there which i can
<jrib> joepits: did you try one of the paritions to test it out?
<joepits> yeah i dragged af ile onto it
<joepits> and it worked
<joepits> idk why they cant give u a tool for that in ubuntu
<joepits> but anywyas thanks for ur help
<jrib> joepits: you can right click
<joepits> ive been fretting over it all night
<jrib> then permissions
<joepits> yeah
<joepits> but it says i cant ch ange them because im not root
<jrib> but you'd need to run nautilus with 'gksudo nautilus'
<joepits> ohh
<joepits> just do that from console?
<joepits> and it will start gdm and stuff
<joepits> i know the other way to start gdm
<jrib> joepits: start gdm?
<joepits> idk
<joepits> the window manager
<joepits> or something
<jrib> you are in gnome at the moment?
<joepits> ya
<jrib> just type 'gksudo nautilus' in a terminal
<joepits> ok it didnt work
<joepits> joe@joe-desktop:~$ gksudo nautilus
<joepits> (nautilus:6173): GnomeUI-WARNING **: While connecting to session manager:
<joepits> Authentication Rejected, reason : None of the authentication protocols specified are supported and host-based authentication failed.
<joepits> (nautilus:6173): libgnomevfs-WARNING **: Failed to open session DBUS connection: Did not receive a reply. Possible causes include: the remote application did not send a reply, the message bus security policy blocked the reply, the reply timeout expired, or the network connection was broken.
<joepits> Volume monitoring will not work.
<joepits> joe@joe-desktop:~$ gksu
<joepits> joe@joe-desktop:~$
<jrib> did nautilus still start?
<joepits> oh well it opened up a new window yes
<joepits> i have to use that one?
<joepits> oh ya now i can do it through the permissions thing
<jrib> yes, use it for what you need and then close it.  You can really mess stuff up if you get used to using it, so I'd recommend avoiding it
<joepits> yeah they say taht
<joepits> hehehehe
<joepits> now im gonna go try and get wine to run CS
<joepits> TYTYTY again
<joepits> ty and goodnight
<jrib> night
<TheGilmanator> Dude, seriously. How come nobody ever explained permissions to me like that before?
<jrib> spread the word
* Starting logfile irclogs/ubuntu-classroom.log
* #ubuntu-classroom  [freenode-info]  channel flooding and no channel staff around to help? please check with freenode support: http://freenode.net/faq.shtml#gettinghelp
<cntb> what is "DCC SCHAT "?
<tonyyarusso> !exploit | cntb
<ubotu> cntb: There are people around who think it is funny to abuse a bug in certain routers by sending invalid DCC commands. When bitten by this bug ops in #ubuntu remove users so they are no longer targets. To fix it have a look here: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/FixDCCExploit
<cntb> tonyyarusso, look pls
<cntb> * Received 'DCC SCHAT "lol_jews_did_wtc" 0 0 0' from mrtanooki
<tonyyarusso> cntb: Yep, we all saw that one.
<cntb> so what happened to mrtanooki ?
<cntb> tonyyarusso, must I fix all my installations of ubuntu ?
* cntb doesnt get it yet
<tonyyarusso> cntb: By putting that in #ubuntu people who are affected and haven't followed the instructions ubotu linked to get kicked offline, spamming the channel with quit messages.
<tonyyarusso> cntb: If you didn't get kicked off by it, you can ignore it, and/or shout explitives at people who need a better hobby.
<LjL> cntb: can you tell me when you received that? does your client timestamp?
<cntb> yes LjL
<cntb> 17:49:LjL,  timestamp  * Received 'DCC SCHAT "lol_jews_did_wtc" 0 0 0' from mrtanooki
<LjL> tonyyarusso: actually i'd advice not speaking to them at all
<LjL> i'm convinced that would be a positive feedback to them
<tonyyarusso> LjL: Shoot, poor choice of words.
<tonyyarusso> cntb: I meant "shout at" as in at the computer, not actually interacting with the people.  :P
<tonyyarusso> LjL: Better?
<LjL> cntb: (that was just to check your timezone, don't worry ;)
<LjL> tonyyarusso: ah, yeah =) the computer probably deserves the expletives anyway
<cntb> I am not allowed to do such CTCp time LjL  right ?
<LjL> cntb: you aren't an identified user, so i guess not
<LjL> !register
<ubotu> Information about registering your Freenode nick is at http://freenode.net/faq.shtml#contents-userregistration
<cntb> now I am identified
<cntb> forgot to nickserv id
<cntb> ;-)
<cntb> btw any class hou any time soon ?
<LjL> don't think
<cntb> pls do ;-)
<tonyyarusso> There's one on the calendar for this weekend; not sure of its status though.
<LjL> well i could improvise a class myself about, uh... dunno. if i have to think "is there anything i know particularly well?", i can't come up with anything :PO
<cntb> haha LjL  modest. good
<LjL> well, there are people who know a lot about one topic
<LjL> then there are people who know a few things about a few topics
<LjL> then there's me - there's a LOAD of things i know a whole nothing about
<cntb> ok still  you are helpful for quite some time to newcomers
<tonyyarusso> LjL: We should have a class on cowspamming!
<cntb> ok what is cowspamming ?
<tonyyarusso> cntb: ASCII art pasting into the channel - normally a bad thing, but in special channels where nobody's trying to be productive, silly and fun ;)
<cntb> ah seen that ty
#ubuntu-classroom 2006-12-13
<chrisjw> ok
<jrib> chrisjw: type this command:  which python
<chrisjw> /usr/local/bin/python
<jrib> chrisjw: do you still have the directory where you compiled it?
<chrisjw> yes
<jrib> go into the same directory that you typed 'make install'.  Now, type 'make uninstall'
<chrisjw> make: *** No rule to make target `uninstall'.  Stop.
<jrib> chrisjw: ls /usr/local/bin/
<chrisjw> glib-genmarshal  glib-mkenums   idle   python     python2.5         smtpd.py
<chrisjw> glib-gettextize  gobject-query  pydoc  python2.4  python2.5-config
<jrib> ok, well you'll have to delete it manually then
<chrisjw> hmm
<chrisjw> I don't have the slightest idea how to do that or which one to remove, but once I have removed it, how would that fix the situation :/
<jrib> chrisjw: you would use the python version you have from the repository
<jrib> you didn't uninstall those did you?
<chrisjw> no
<chrisjw> I just did make install with the new python
<chrisjw> Can't I just install the python from the repository?
<jrib> it is installed
<chrisjw> Surely it would overwrite
<jrib> no
<jrib> you installed to /usr/local
<chrisjw> ok
<jrib> and that's preferred to /usr, where packages get installed to
<jrib> there is another way,
<jrib> you can install your python again using "checkinstall", then remove the package
<chrisjw> hmm the python in /usr/bin
<chrisjw> is 2.4.3
<jrib> how do you tell?
<chrisjw> I ran the file and it said 2.4.3
<jrib> what version of ubuntu?
<chrisjw> 6.06
<jrib> ah
<jrib> chrisjw: dpkg -S $(which python)
<jrib> actually, first lets get rid of your installation
<chrisjw> chrisw69@FQ400:/$ dpkg -S $(which python)
<chrisjw> dpkg: /usr/local/bin/python not found.
<chrisjw> ty
<jrib> right... I should have said  dpkg -S /usr/bin/python
<chrisjw> python-minimal: /usr/bin/python
<chrisjw> returns
<jrib> aptitude changelog python-minimal
<jrib> see what the last comment was
<jrib> and when
<chrisjw> hmm ugh
<chrisjw> it's listed past when I can see
<chrisjw> python-defaults (2.4.2-0ubuntu3) dapper; urgency=low
<chrisjw> that's at the very top
<jrib> aptitude changelog python2.4-minimal
<chrisjw> python2.4 (2.4.3-0ubuntu6) dapper-security; urgency=low
<chrisjw> that's all i can see at the top
<jrib> chrisjw: ok, have you used checkinstall before?
<chrisjw> no :/
<jrib> ok, go ahead and install it
<chrisjw> how do i do that :/
<chrisjw> apt-get checkinstall ?
<jrib> sudo apt-get install checkinstall
<chrisjw> ok done
<jrib> !info checkinstall
<ubotu> checkinstall: installation tracker. In component universe, is optional. Version 1.6.0-2ubuntu1 (edgy), package size 88 kB, installed size 392 kB
<jrib> useless description...
<jrib> ok, checkinstall basically creates a deb package instead of doing 'make install'
<chrisjw> ok
<jrib> you use it by doing 'sudo checkinstall' instead of 'sudo make install'
<jrib> so go ahead and install that python again using checkinstall
<chrisjw> ok, but what's the difference
<jrib> after it installs, your package system will be aware of it
<chrisjw> ok
<jrib> and you can do sudo apt-get remove python-my-special-package or whatever
<chrisjw> ok, so i have checkinstall
<jrib> chrisjw: name it something like that so it doesn't replace any python package you are supposed to have
<chrisjw> ok but where am I getting this new package from?
<jrib> checkinstall creates it
<chrisjw> I mean
<chrisjw> the python source
<chrisjw> where is that coming from
<jrib> yes, same place you typed 'make install' before
<chrisjw> oh ok
<chrisjw> so I just type sudo checkinstall
<jrib> yes
<chrisjw> ok, it's doing something fun, thanks for helping me btw
<jrib> remember, change the package name
<chrisjw> it hasn't made any package yet
<jrib> k
<jrib> it will ask you some questions soon
<chrisjw> it's saying Installing debian package
<chrisjw> writing backup now
<chrisjw>  Done. The new package has been installed and saved to
<chrisjw>  /home/chrisw69/Python-2.4.4/python_2.4.4-1_i386.deb
<jrib> ok
<jrib> now remove it
<chrisjw> sudo apt-get remove
<chrisjw> dsfsdfhkog wait
<chrisjw> E: Couldn't find package python-package.deb
<jrib> acs -n python 2.4.4
<jrib> erm:  apt-cache search -n python 2.4.4
<chrisjw> python2.4-4suite - An open-source platform for XML and RDF processing for Python 2.4
<jrib> that's it?
<chrisjw> yes
<jrib> :/
<jrib> dpks -S $(which python)
<chrisjw> python: /usr/local/bin/python
<jrib> this is why I want you to change the name :)
<jrib> heh that's not good
<chrisjw> :(
<jrib> sudo apt-get -s install python   what does this say
<chrisjw> python is already the newest version.
<chrisjw> 0 upgraded, 0 newly installed, 0 to remove and 110 not upgraded.
<jrib> apt-cache policy python
<chrisjw> python:
<chrisjw>   Installed: 2.4.4-1
<chrisjw>   Candidate: 2.4.4-1
<chrisjw>   Version table:
<chrisjw>  *** 2.4.4-1 0
<chrisjw>         100 /var/lib/dpkg/status
<chrisjw>      2.4.2-0ubuntu3 0
<chrisjw>         500 http://gb.archive.ubuntu.com dapper/main Packages
<jrib> actually, does /usr/bin/python still exist?
<chrisjw> yes
<jrib> well that's good
<jrib> sudo apt-get install python=2.4.2-0ubuntu3
<jrib> lets see if that removes the old one or not
<chrisjw> it says do i want to downgrade i said yes
<chrisjw> Setting up python (2.4.2-0ubuntu3) ...
<chrisjw> then back to prompt
<jrib> k, check if /usr/local/bin/python exists
<chrisjw> or bash or whatever it is
<chrisjw> no
<chrisjw> its gone
<jrib> check if your gedit works
<chrisjw> yes it works
<chrisjw> <3
<chrisjw> LOL
<jrib> use checkinstall in the future instead of make install
<chrisjw> so, upgrading to 2.4.4
<jrib> one option, use edgy
<chrisjw> ok
<chrisjw> I have 2.5 installed as an alternate installation
<jrib> try this command please:
<jrib>  python -c "import sys; print sys.maxunicode"
<chrisjw> 1114111
<chrisjw> hmm
<chrisjw> shouldn't that be 65535
<jrib> no
<jrib> well if you want it to be...
<jrib> i'm reading http://www.python.org/news/security/PSF-2006-001/
<jrib> you have a couple of options the way I see it
<jrib> 1) upgrade to edgy
<jrib> 2) patch python yourself
<jrib> 3) maybe python is already patched by ubuntu, find out
<chrisjw> well from what it says, UCS4.0 is not vulnerable
<chrisjw> sys.maxunicode is 1114111
<chrisjw> i just thought there could have been an upgrade
<jrib> "The flaw only manifests itself in Python builds configured to support UCS-4 Unicode strings "
<chrisjw> ioh lol
<chrisjw> !
<chrisjw> oh right
<chrisjw> so I am vulnerable
<jrib> see 3) above
<jrib> chrisjw: do you have the security repositories enabled?
<chrisjw> im not sure, im new to this :/
<jrib> !pastebin
<ubotu> pastebin is a service to post large texts so you don't flood the channel. The Ubuntu pastebin is at http://paste.ubuntu-nl.org (be sure to give the URL of your paste - see also the #ubuntu channel topic)
<jrib> pastebin the contents of your /etc/apt/sources.list file
<jrib> there does seem to be a more recent version of python2.4-minimal than what you have
<jrib> http://changelogs.ubuntu.com/changelogs/pool/main/p/python2.4/python2.4_2.4.3-0ubuntu6/changelog  and look at the changelog :)
<jrib> Fix buffer overrun in repr() for unicode strings. Ubuntu #56633. CVE-2006-4980.
<jrib> I'm guessing that's the same
<chrisjw> yes
<chrisjw> http://paste.ubuntu-nl.org/36766/
<chrisjw> I'm used to windows :/
<jrib> you have security, type 'sudo apt-get update'
<chrisjw> what is the difference between usr/local/bin and usr/bin
<jrib> that will refresh the package list
<jrib> chrisjw: /usr/local is reserved for stuff that you want to compile and install yourself
<jrib> the package system uses /usr
<chrisjw> is that on all distributions of linux?
<jrib> do you know about the $PATH
<chrisjw> no
<jrib> chrisjw: yes, usually.  Google for "fhs"
<jrib> chrisjw: ok, about the $PATH, type 'echo $PATH' in your shell
<chrisjw> yes i did that
<jrib> ok, when you type a command in your shell, it searches the $PATH in that order
<jrib> so if you have two python files: one in /usr/local/bin and one in/usr/bin, it finds the one in /usr/local/bin and uses that
<jrib> that is if you jsut type 'python', you can always tell it exactly what you want with the full path, so say, /usr/bin/python as a command
<jrib> that's what was happening before
<chrisjw> i see
<chrisjw> so if I put a file in usr/bin called blah
<chrisjw> i type blah into bash
<chrisjw> does it execute blah then, if it has the permissions and executable etc
<jrib> yes and it will run /usr/bin/blah
<jrib> there's an exception, your shell also has built-in commands.  For example 'cd'
<jrib> you can try   'type cd'   and it will tell you what it is
<jrib> or   'which cd'
<jrib> or 'type type'  :)
<chrisjw> cool
<chrisjw> I think I like linux, I've written a few python scripts before and done some work in c++
<chrisjw> I'm not very good though, how old are you?
<jrib> 22
<jrib> linux is good for that type of person.  If you like to learn and aren't scared to read how to do things it's really great
<chrisjw> I've used a linux shell before when helping someone with their irc setup
<chrisjw> but I'll certainly use checkinstall in the future
<chrisjw> It seems useful
<jrib> you shouldn't need to use it too often, most stuff is available in the repositories
<chrisjw> I'd like to understand the CLI a little so I can work with unix and BSD flavours
<jrib> have you read the rute book?
<jrib> !rute
<ubotu> documentation is to be found at http://help.ubuntu.com and http://wiki.ubuntu.com - General linux documentation: http://www.tldp.org - http://rute.2038bug.com
<jrib> it's a pretty good overview
<jrib> and try a few different shells out to see which on you like
* jrib suggests zsh
<chrisjw> no i haven't but i'll add it to my favourites
<jrib> !cli
<ubotu> The linux terminal or command-line interface is very powerful. Open a terminal via Applications -> Accessories -> Terminal (Gnome) or K-menu -> System -> Konsole (KDE).  Manuals: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/BasicCommands
<jrib> linuxcommand.org is good for beginners and introduces a lot of stuff (it's linked in help.ubuntu.com I believe)
<jrib> and of course man pages and the contents of /usr/share/doc
* jrib wonders why it is so cold
<chrisjw> hey, I have to go it's 04:41
<chrisjw> DO you always hang here?
<jrib> chrisjw: yeah, usually
<chrisjw> ok, i'll see you another time
<chrisjw> bye
<chrisjw> thanks for your help
<chrisjw> I really appreciate t
<jrib> np, cya
<nalioth> jrib: since this seems your favorite place, shall we continue?
<tonyyarusso> Oo, is jrib teaching a class for us?
<nalioth> trying to get him in here
<nalioth> for some 1 on 1
<tonyyarusso> oh, nvm
<nalioth> tonyyarusso: you can run along now, we've not seen your new cloak enough yet  :P
* jrib is here
<tonyyarusso> nalioth: haha
<jrib> I just installed beryl 2 days ago so I don't know much either
* tonyyarusso actually had a question though
<nalioth> jrib: i couldn't tell you the difference 'tween them
<tonyyarusso> DBO: Are you still on for a class this weekend?
<nalioth> i just followed the XGL from the wiki
<nalioth> DBO is not.
<jrib> nalioth: is this edgy?
<nalioth> yessir
<nalioth> edgy x86
<nalioth> one of my test boxen
<gnomefreak> beryl hasnt been built for feisty yet for feisty repos atleast. i havent seen a 3rd party repo for feisty beryl yet either.
<jrib> ok, well I used aiglx, but I assume after getting xgl or aiglx, getting beryl is the same
<jrib> nalioth: deb http://ubuntu.beryl-project.org/ edgy main      is my line in /etc/apt/sources.list for beryl
<nalioth> c'mon, i'm a simple guy
<nalioth> any simple URLs to tell me how to play with it?
<jrib> www.beryl-project.org  has a wiki
<gnomefreak> nalioth: the key bindings are just about the same as compiz
<nalioth> gnomefreak: jrib: i JUST installed/enabled compiz/XGL from a wiki entry
<gnomefreak> atleast for the normal used things
<nalioth> i have NO idea how it works
<nalioth> i have NO idea how to pimp it
<nalioth> i have NO idea the difference 'tween beryl and compiz
<jrib> in beryl I had to run 'beryl-manager', see anything similar for compiz?
<nalioth> there's gotta be a wiki page on how to use it
<jrib> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/CompositeManager/ConfiguringCompiz
<nalioth> you guys are aiming way over my head
<gnomefreak> nalioth: at the bottom of this link are the things that can be done (not all of them i think) https://help.ubuntu.com/community/CompositeManager/ConfiguringCompiz
<jrib> and it looks like compiz configuration is done through gconf.  beryl gives you a preferences application to play with
<gnomefreak> it has things like how to rotate cube and use rain affects and so on
<gnomefreak> jrib: i think gconf was not used anylonger now csm or whatever it is is used now i thought
<gnomefreak> gnome-window-decorator &  compiz --replace gconf &
<jrib> gnomefreak: is newer version <= version in repository?
<gnomefreak> in quinns repo no more gconf i think. not sure about ubuntu repos
<nalioth> <sigh>
* nalioth tries to keep a current system so as to help folks . . . . . 
* nalioth needs to buy a new mouse
<nalioth> er, trackball
<nalioth> thanks fellows
<jrib> do your windows wobble yet?
<nalioth> i'm surprised there isn't a "pimpmyubuntu.org" page
<nalioth> all that rubbish confuses me
<nalioth> perhaps i'll install beryl
<jrib> go for it
<gnomefreak> beryls nicer in IMO but as said the keybindings are the same. :(
<nalioth> still not sure the differences in aiglx compiz beryl etc
<gnomefreak> nalioth: afaik it just reduces the need for xgl
<gnomefreak> now that aiglx is built in to xorg
<gnomefreak> its a little faster also
* nalioth is even more confused now
<gnomefreak> lol
<jrib> aiglx is an alternative to xgl,  beryl is an alternative to compiz
<nalioth> differences in beryl and compiz are?
<jrib> beryl is a fork of compiz
<gnomefreak> the way the themes work the menus for beryl its faster
<gnomefreak> there are more just cant think of them atm
<gnomefreak> i dont think compiz usses emarald for its themes
<nalioth> jrib: wiki page on how to get beryl running?
<gnomefreak> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/BerylOnEdgy#head-b9843696e5a3946c5a010759c00b3a6d40e0b0e6
<gnomefreak> you dont need the #....... i guess that just leaves you off at tweeks
<nalioth> <sigh>
<gnomefreak> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/BerylOnEdgy
<nalioth> where does one get the key for the beryl pkgs?
* nalioth hates a lack of info
<jrib> on the wiki
<jrib> wget http://ubuntu.beryl-project.org/root@lupine.me.uk.gpg -O- | sudo apt-key add -
<gnomefreak> wget http://ubuntu.beryl-project.org/root@lupine.me.uk.gpg -O- | sudo apt-key add -
<gnomefreak> you need to install beryl and emerald-themes   for some reason -themes isnt packaged in beryl-meta
<gnomefreak> unless that has been fixed
<nalioth> wget http://ubuntu.beryl-project.org/root@lupine.me.uk.gpg -O- | sudo apt-key add -
<jrib> gnomefreak: emerald recommends emerald themes it seems
<nalioth> crap, now that system has gone down
<gnomefreak> IMO it shoudl depend on eachother so you have some extra themes without having to go to art.gnome.org or wherever
<nalioth> <sigh>
* nalioth is gonna go back to bed
<nalioth> thanks guys for your time
<nalioth> i hate wikis that make you play guessing games
<nalioth> i'm going back to bed
<nalioth> i'll mess with it later
<jrib> night
<gnomefreak> good night nalioth
<yoshig3> yeah, that's why I said it was a windows based statement lol
<LjL> yoshig3: the CPU executes instructions. there are various kind of instructions: we can focus on those that access memory, those that perform arithmetical or logical operations, and those that control the program flow (jump here, just there if something is zero, etc)
<yoshig3> Program flow would be comparable to if statements, right?
<LjL> yoshig3: hardware (meaning the graphics card, the hard drives, etc) are accessed through "fake" memory, i.e. memory locations that don't actually map to real RAM, but to registers in the cards
<LjL> yoshig3: yes
<yoshig3> (I am familiar with programming somewhat_
<LjL> yoshig3: well, then let's talk about this for a minute
<LjL> yoshig3: when you do something like if(a=0) print("Hello!"), what happens?
<LjL> yoshig3: you compile the program. this means a translator (the compiler) creates a bunch of CPU instructions (machine code) that correspond to your program
<yoshig3> LjL: yes.
<yoshig3> The C++ is translated, C++ was made because it's much easier for a human to read than machine code, right?
<yoshig3> Isn't machine code just 1's and 0's? Or is that just memory and binary?
<LjL> yoshig3: a program like that one would be translated similarly to the following:  MOVE a, ACC ; BRANCH_NONZERO endif ; MOVE "h", console_buffer ; MOVE "e", console_buffer ; etc etc ; ::endif   ....rest of the program
<LjL> yoshig3: this assembly language (an assembly language is machine code put in "human readable" form) is completely fictional, but should give you the idea
<yoshig3> See, you know assembly lol....I have no clue about assembly. Keep in mind I started off in VB6, and am gradually moving to C++.
<yoshig3> I made a nifty Windows serial generator, but it's for the OLD programs, the one that use the simple algorithm
<yoshig3> I figured out the algorithm by looking at the serials that a generator created
<yoshig3> Wany me to tell you?
<LjL> yoshig3: basically, it says: "move the contents of some memory location (maybe it's 23423, maybe it's 7934, but we'll call it "a" for readability) into the 'accumulator' register (an internal register many CPUs have); then if the contents of the accumulator is non-zero, don't just go on with the next instruction, but jump to the memory location that we'll call 'endif', and start executing the code that is there; but, if the contents of
<LjL> the accumulator *is* indeed zero, proceed with the next instruction; the next instruction is, move the letter "h" to some memory location that actually represents the graphics card text-mode memory, then do the same for "ello!"
<LjL> yoshig3: machine code is 1 and 0, but you can represent those in many ways (hexadecimal, or some other base... or assembly)
<yoshig3> So that's how a if works....never knew that
<yoshig3> I figured , but didn't know exactly about the memory addresses and whatnot
<LjL> yoshig3: and machine code, once loaded from the disk, resides in memory, just like data (this is called the Von Neumann architecture -- other architectures keep programs and data separate, but most computers we normally use don't)
<LjL> yoshig3: ok now back to the original topic... programs actually *do* execute that way. well, almost. what they do *not* do, in that case, is access the graphics card directly
<yoshig3> So it runs quicker?
<LjL> yoshig3: quicker than what?
<yoshig3> Than if you were to keep the programs and machine code seperate?
<LjL> yoshig3: no
<yoshig3> LjL: Yeah, isn't that was OpenGL and DX is for?
<LjL> yoshig3: the program IS the machine code
<LjL> no
<LjL> yoshig3, when you've compiled your program, what you're left with is just machine code
<LjL> your "if"s and "print"s aren't left anywhere
<yoshig3> yeah I Know, so the computer can read it
<LjL> yoshig3: ok, then i don't understand what you mean by "keeping the programs and machine code separate"
<yoshig3> LjL: I was just saying according to what you said. "other architectures keep programs and data separate"
<LjL> yoshig3: programs and *data*, not programs and *machine code* -- the programs *are* the machine code
<LjL> yoshig3: mind you, "data" is also made up of ones and zeroes... just like everything else is
<LjL> yoshig3: but programs actually contain ones and zeroes that make sense to the CPU -- data contain ones and zeroes that may make sense to some programs
<LjL> yoshig3: like ASCII or UTF-8 characters, which are just bytes (ones and zeroes), but make sense to the font rendering libraries (and company), so you can see actual letters on the screen
<yoshig3> yeah I know that part lol
<LjL> yoshig3: anyway, what i was saying is: that fictional "Hello" program can't really print "Hello" directly by writing stuff to the graphics card, because it's not *allowed* to, on most modern operating system
<yoshig3> Then how does it do it?
<LjL> yoshig3: (and even on some older systems, where it would be allowed to, it still isn't a good idea - but this for later)
<LjL> yoshig3: well, the CPU can run in (at least) two different modes, let's call them "userland" and "kernelland"
<LjL> yoshig3: when in "kernelland", *any* instruction that accesses *any* memory or whatever is allowed to execute
<LjL> yoshig3: when in userland, "forbidden" instructions and forbidden areas of memory (such as the memory space used by the graphics card) can't be accessed -- if a program accesses them, the CPU doesn't execute them, and instead 1) stops executing that program 2) jumps to some specific piece of code (which is operating system, kernel code) to deal with the issue 3) starts running in "kernelland"
<LjL> yoshig3: if this actually happens (i.e. a program tries to access something it shouldn't), in Linux you get a 'segmentation fault', or 'illegal instruction' error
<LjL> yoshig3: but if the program actually wants to access something it "shouldn't", it can call the kernel
<yoshig3> I see
<LjL> yoshig3: it executes a special instruction (variously called a "trap", a "software interrupt", or a "syscall", or an "exception")
<LjL> yoshig3: that instruction still causes the CPU to panic, as above, and call the kernel. it yells to the kernel "hey, this program is doing this ugly forbidden thing!" =)
<LjL> yoshig3: but the kernel knows it's actually just a kernel request - a syscall
<LjL> yoshig3: it looks at some registers (that the program has set), and sees that the syscall is, for instance, a request to write some pixels on the screen
<LjL> yoshig3: it then asks a special part of the kernel (the "reference monitor") whether the program has the necessary privileges to actually do what it asked
<LjL> yoshig3: if it does, then the kernel does it for it
<LjL> yoshig3: otherwise, the request is denied
<LjL> yoshig3: that's one thing that the kernel does
<yoshig3> Well no wonder computers are slow
<LjL> yoshig3: another thing is schedule processes
<yoshig3> They go through so many operations to do one simple thing
<LjL> yoshig3: how can you run many programs simultaneously on your computer?
<yoshig3> But, I guess they are necessary
<LjL> yoshig3: the hardware provides some timers. timers that cause an "interrupt" (i.e. a wire on the CPU gets some voltage into it), and the CPU jumps to a specific memory location
<yoshig3> LjL: In Windows, I usually ran Steam(minimized), Trillian with IRC and AIM connected, usually a Firefox with 1-10 tabs, Windows Explorer, Winamp...hm...and pretty much anything else that comes up that I need to use
<nothlit> trillian? :O:O:O
<LjL> yoshig3: this way, the kernel can 1) set up such a timer 2) start running a program 3) when the timer triggers, control goes back to the kernel 4) the kernel can then decide that the first program should be interrupted, and another program run instead, for some time
<nothlit> *shame* *shame* *shame*
<LjL> yoshig3: obviously, these timers are set to trigger very fast, so you normally don't notice that the programs "take turns"
<LjL> yoshig3: then another thing the kernel does is manage memory, i.e. decide which programs should write/read where in memory, and allocate the memory for them
<LjL> yoshig3: and, in general, the kernel "manage resources" (hardware or software resources) for the programs
<LjL> yoshig3: which brings us back to what i briefly mentioned earlier "(and even on some older systems, where it would be allowed to, it still isn't a good idea - but this for later)"
<nothlit> Thats one advantage of dual cores, less switching
<LjL> yoshig3: even on an "old" system, a program shouldn't just write to the graphics card, or to the sound card, or to the hard drive, by itself... since, if multiple programs are running (and now we know we do, and how), it would become a mess. you'd have your screen garbled, your audio badly mixed, and you data corrupted ;)
<yoshig3> yeah, dual cores are nice...we have quad cores now, but they are expensive....octi cores are being made, but they're just prototypes I believe
<nothlit> intel made something with like 80 cores
<LjL> yoshig3: so, on multi-programmed systems, programs *really* should ask the kernel to do things for them. so the kernel, besides allowing/disallowing things, can make things work together nicely
<yoshig3> LjL: You need to be a teacher. How old are you?
<LjL> yoshig3: i'm 24
<LjL> yoshig3: now anyway, there are many kinds of kernels
<LjL> yoshig3: there are kernels that are very small (they're sometimes called 'microkernels'), and really only do what i mentioned: 1) schedule processes for running 2) allocate memory 3) manage intercommunication between processes
<LjL> yoshig3: these kernel defer many things (such as the actual specific of how to drive, say, a graphics card, or a HD) to userland processes, which are given specific privileges for what they need to manage
<LjL> yoshig3: Linux is not one of these kernels - Linux does a lot of things itself, and it includes for instance many hardware drivers, and filesystem handlers
<yoshig3> So the linux kernel is better than the windows?
<LjL> yoshig3: still, Linux is incredibly small in size compared to your overall Ubuntu system, which is made up by lots and lots of libraries and stuff
<LjL> yoshig3: no, both Linux and the Windows kernel are of the "big" kind
<LjL> yoshig3: and there are arguments both for and against microkernels and "big" (aka "monolithic") kernels
<nothlit> Ehm isn't the windows kernel much more monolothic, and unsafe
<LjL> yoshig3: it's just that, in Windows, you don't really even have a *name* for the kernel (you just call it "the kernel"), since it's part of a single project - Windows
<nothlit> it has version numbers though
<LjL> nothlit: the Windows NT kernel actually started as a microkernel
<LjL> nothlit: later it was expanded to include in-kernel GUI and other amenities
<LjL> nothlit: they found that a microkernel was too slow for that
<LjL> at least, their microkernel was
<yoshig3> LjL: I would figure that microkernels would be faster?
<LjL> yoshig3: wrong
<LjL> yoshig3: they're usually slower, though microkernel proponents claim they can be made as fast, and faster, than monolithic kernels
<LjL> yoshig3: the problem with microkernels is that there are lots of "layers". the kernel only does the very basic things (chiefly, task scheduling), and the rest is demanded to the task that are scheduled
<nothlit> the minix microkernel inspired linux :)
<yoshig3> monolithic kernels are the "big" kernels, right?
<LjL> yoshig3: so, when a program, say, tries to write on a file, 1) it calls the filesystem server (which is a process)    2) the kernel switches task, and makes the filesystem server execute   3) the filesystem server looks at what it has to do, prepares it, and then calls the HD driver to actually do it  4) the kernel switches to the HD driver  5) the HD driver does the actual writing  6) the kernel switches back to the initial process
<LjL> yoshig3: yes
<LjL> yoshig3: note that this "task switching" (also known as "context switch") thing can be kind of slow
<yoshig3> LjL: Why is it slow?
<LjL> yoshig3: on a "big"/monolithic kernel, the program would just call the kernel, which then runs routines (that are all embedded in the kernel itself) to do the entire job
<nothlit> actually windows has their own microkernel, but its not for regular os use
<LjL> yoshig3: because in order to suspend and then restart a process, the kernel must save (and then restore) many things: the CPU registers, the memory table for the process, the stack pointer, ...
<yoshig3> ah
<yoshig3> My cousin tried explaining stacks to me a while back
<yoshig3> I think I kind of get it
<yoshig3> memory stacks
<yoshig3> like pancakes :D
<yoshig3> lol
<yoshig3> my cousin is just about as smart as you , just probably not with linux
<LjL> yoshig3: the downside with the monolithic kernels is: if everything's done by the kernel, and in kernel mode, then you can get in trouble as soon as the kernel "gets something wrong" -- remember that, in kernel mode, you can do *anything*
<yoshig3> He might know linux
<yoshig3> Although he's a very nonsocial person
<yoshig3> so he pisses me off once in a while lol
<LjL> yoshig3: so, if the filesystem driver (for example) has a problem, even a relatively trivial problem, it can bring down the whole system
<yoshig3> "gets something wrong"? Is this the programs fault or the kernels?
<LjL> yoshig3: the kernel, since it's a part of the kernel that's doing something wrong
<LjL> yoshig3: even if the program is "lying" to the kernel, the kernel should spot the lie
<nothlit> whaaat about kernel modules
<yoshig3> So is that a faulty kernel then?
<LjL> yoshig3: also, with monolithic kernels, if you want to install a new driver, or filesystem handler, or ..... , it isn't just like "executing a program". you actually need to *modify the kernel*. in Linux and Windows, this is made easier in that the kernel can use "modules" (they're not called such in Windows, though), i.e. load parts of the kernel at runtime, via a special interface
<yoshig3> brb guys
<LjL> yoshig3: yes, it's a faulty kernel. but a big kernel that embeds filesystem handlers, drivers and what not is *bound* to be faulty, here and there
<LjL> nothlit: see above
<yoshig3> gonna go get my lappy so I can transfer files after windows install, but don't worry, I'm coming back to #ubuntu, #ubuntu-classroom, and #ubuntu-offtopic.
<yoshig3> But I'm not getting off Ubuntu yet
<yoshig3> just brb'ing, so hold on a bit for the teaching
<LjL> nothlit: modules are still part of the kernel, though. most are actually made by the kernel developers. then there are modules made by other people, but they're still running in kernel mode, as a part of the kernel
<nothlit> so the only diff is you can modprobe and rmmod them?
<LjL> nothlit: yeah. well, that's quite useful though, compared to having one single huge file (the kernel image) containing them all (even those you don't need)
<LjL> nothlit: but it's still different from what a microkernel does
<LjL> nothlit: in a microkernel (or near-microkernel), those "modules" would generally just be userland processes (services, in most microkernel-lingos)
<yoshig3> LjL: They should thoroughly test the kernel before they release it, shouldn't they?
<yoshig3> isn't that what i'm paying 400$ per distro for?
<yoshig3> (windows)
<yoshig3> (But no, I don't pay...who does)
<nothlit> They do really thorough tests, mostly for compatibility/legacy support (software, not hardware).
<nothlit> who said for stability :)
<LjL> yoshig3: no program has no bugs.
<jrib> hello world?
<LjL> jrib: easy enough to put some in there :P
<LjL> still, alright, that statement was too big
<jrib> yeah should be a capital H
<nothlit> anyways windows is a lot more monolithic... if the video goes down the whole thing does... the way its designed isn't as stable
<LjL> but, except for programs that can take a formal mathematical proof (which are very few, right now), you can't guarantee a program is free of bugs
<LjL> and any sufficiently complex program will empirically have some/many
<LjL> nothlit: i disagree... i believe X can make the entire system go down in Linux just as well
<LjL> even if X itself isn't running as part of the kernel (kind of an exception to the Linux rule)
<nothlit> hmm listen to LjL, I know nothing
<yoshig3> LjL: I can't find my windows CD T.T
<yoshig3> Darn bad omens...
<jrib> that's a feature
<LjL> jrib: what, not being able to find a windows cd?
<jrib> yeah
<yoshig3> LOL
<yoshig3> Okay, jrib, now THAT was funny
<yoshig3> But, I found it :P
<yoshig3> I just remembered-CD case
<jrib> yeah windows is buggy like that
<yoshig3> I finally decided to organize something
<yoshig3> then I can't find it
<yoshig3> lol
<nothlit> jrib, cd's are buggy?
<yoshig3> nothlit: He said that it is a feature of windows to not be able to find your CD
<nothlit> yoshig3, i was referring purely to the last line :P
<LjL> !disks | jrib
<ubotu> jrib: Partitioning programs: !GParted or QTParted  -  Formatting partitions: see the manual page for mkfs ("man mkfs")  -  Mounting partitions in Gnome under Dapper: System -> Administration -> Disks - For Edgy, see !fstab and !DiskMounter
<yoshig3> nothlit: ah k lol
<yoshig3> LjL: I do enjoy being able to reload a GUI on demand though, like X
<nothlit> I wonder why qtparted still doesn't have the features gparted has
<yoshig3> LjL: In windows, there is nothing like that
<yoshig3> LjL: if it crashes, you just get screwed
<nothlit> yoshig3, well vista is supposed to be different
<LjL> yoshig3: true enough. with X, if it crashes, you might or might not be screwed
<jrib> LjL: sounds good, starting to get a bit long though
<LjL> jrib, nothlit: do you know if qtparted can format?
<jrib> I've been able to make X crash and lock me out completely.  And usually I find it is the nvidia driver's fault
<jrib> LjL: never used qtparted
<yoshig3> jrib: Yeah, drivers blow for ubuntu, but that doesn't mean ubuntu does
<yoshig3> or debian, I should say?
<LjL> jrib: that's why i was saying X can still completely lock down the system, even though it's not in-kernel...
<nothlit> LjL, it can but can't resize ext3 and stuff
<nothlit> LjL, it can resize reiserfs though
<LjL> nothlit: ok - that doesn't matter, i was just asking so i could decide whether to remove the mkfs part or not
<LjL> !disks | jrib
<LjL> pff
<jrib> LjL: yeah though I haven't tried enabling those sysrq keys and seeing if it works when X crashes
<LjL> jrib: i think sysrq is enabled by default, at least in edgy
<jrib> hmm
<LjL> jrib: if you're in X, though, you need to know the key combinations ;)
<jrib> what's that nmeonic again?
<LjL> no idea
<jrib> erm
<nothlit> oh i just memorise r 0 k e i s u b
<nothlit> its something about elephants
<LjL> jrib: anyway altgr+sysrq+h, doesn't give you any mnemonic though :)
<jrib> something to do with elephants
<yoshig3> LjL: I have a question. When you update drivers, why can't you just UPDATE them? Why do you always have to uninstall, and then reinstall?
<jrib> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raising_Skinny_Elephants_Is_Utterly_Boring
<LjL> yoshig3: they don't.
<LjL> yoshig3: i just updated my nvidia drivers. twice in a week.
<yoshig3> LjL: yeah but usually they tell you "Uninstall previous drivers first"
<LjL> yoshig3: where?
<LjL> yoshig3: of course, if you installed them in awkward ways (i.e. not from packages), you could have issues
<LjL> but otherwise, you should generally be fine
<LjL> !disks
<yoshig3> LjL I guess I'm speaking windows again....sorry. Although, envy did tell me to uninstall first, as did all the howto's
<nothlit> LjL, twice? do you install them from nvidia.com?
<ubotu> Partitioning programs: !GParted or QTParted (also "man mkfs" for formatting) - Mounting partitions in Gnome under Dapper: System -> Administration -> Disks - For Edgy, see !fstab and !DiskMounter
<LjL> jrib: ^
<yoshig3> (linux envy and howto's)
<LjL> nothlit: no. the amaranth repository first, and then the albertomilone repository
<nothlit> LjL, you just gave ubotu a factoid?
<LjL> yoshig3, that's the catch - you aren't using repositories
<nothlit> oh
<LjL> nothlit: hm?
<yoshig3> LjL: Ah
<jrib> LjL: sounds good to me
<nothlit> LjL, disks
<LjL> nothlit: it was there already, i changed it though
<yoshig3> LjL: See, I don't really understand repositories. Are they just archives of files?
<nothlit> LjL, how long does it usually take for factoids to get approved?
<yoshig3> Or something dynamic?
<LjL> nothlit: a couple of minutes, unless all operators are sleeping
<jrib> yoshig3: they are a bunch of deb files basically
<LjL> nothlit: or unless *too many* operators are awake, and quibble on semantics ;-P
<nothlit> Repositories are a place where packages are stored... and they can be contacted to find out what packages there are on it
<yoshig3> then why don't they just call them archives? be a bit easier
<nothlit> LjL, :( then all my factoids got rejected? =/
<LjL> yoshig3: because an "archive" is usually something else (a tar file is generally called an "archive")
<LjL> nothlit: like?
<nothlit> They do change and get updated
<nothlit> LjL, ehm something on sbackup, then /fastboot and /forcefsck... can't remember what else
<yoshig3> LjL: yeah, I know what you mean by that, but it still would fix alot of confusion
<LjL> yoshig3: a repository is a web or FTP site, but it contains many things that must follow a special format
<nothlit> a repository is a place where you store things :P
<nothlit> like packages
<LjL> yoshig3: the contain programs in the end, yeah, but each of those program is packaged into a .deb archive, which has a strict format and handles versioning, dependencies and all that
<yoshig3> yeah...true
<yoshig3> But most people don't know what repository means lol
<LjL> yoshig3: calling them "archives" wouldn't help a bit
<LjL> explaining what they are definitely should
<nothlit> Well you don't have to incorrectly name something just because the masses don't get it
<LjL> !repositories
<ubotu> The packages in Ubuntu are divided into several sections. More information at https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Repositories and http://www.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/components - See also !EasySource
<LjL> !packages
<ubotu> You can browse and search for Ubuntu packages using !Synaptic, !Adept, "apt-cache search <keywords>", the "apt:/" URL in KDE, or online at http://packages.ubuntu.com - Ubuntu has about 20000 packages available, so please *search* for an official package before installing things in awkward ways!
<LjL> !software
<ubotu> A general introduction to the ways software can be installed, removed and managed in Ubuntu can be found at https://help.ubuntu.com/community/SoftwareManagement - See also !Packages and !Equivalents
<jrib> spammer
<LjL> !flood
<ubotu> pastebin is a service to post large texts so you don't flood the channel. The Ubuntu pastebin is at http://paste.ubuntu-nl.org (be sure to give the URL of your paste - see also the #ubuntu channel topic)
<LjL> nothlit: i don't have any of your factoids logged... if you have the logs, would you mind digging them up?
<LjL> nothlit: as for forcefsck, i recently learned that shutdown -F -r <time> can reboot and force an fsck
<yoshig3> Alright LjL: Thank you so much for everything so far. I'm off to start windows install and fry me up some chicken
<nothlit> I don't log irc =/
<yoshig3> I will be back though. Is that alright?
<nothlit> nothlit> sbackup is a great tool that can help you make complete and/or incremental backups. These can be scheduled to be automatic, and can be done over a network. To install it, use synaptic (!synaptic) or sudo apt-get install sbackup.
<nothlit> <ubotu> Your edit request has been forwarded to #ubuntu-ops. Thank you for your attention to de
<yoshig3> LjL: Is it alright if I come back when I use Windows? I enjoy speaking with you guys
<LjL> yoshig3, as long as you don't ask windows questions in #ubuntu ;)
<LjL> !info sbackup
<nothlit> yoshig3, people are always welcome in the channels, as long as they're not hostile
<ubotu> sbackup: Simple Backup Suite for desktop use. In component universe, is optional. Version 0.10.3 (edgy), package size 59 kB, installed size 468 kB
<yoshig3> LjL: of course not
<yoshig3> LjL: that would be like calling a bunch of black people the n word and being the only whitey there
<yoshig3> lol
<nothlit> theres ##windows btw
<yoshig3> I didn't know that :D
<yoshig3> freenode is a pretty good server
<yoshig3> although I think the "unavailable" channel is pretty funny
<yoshig3> What happened to creating channels? lol
<yoshig3> Probably have to talk to the server ops about that huh
<nothlit>  /j #newchannel ? :P
<yoshig3> Actually I might vmware a ubuntu just for fun
<yoshig3> try it nothlit
<nothlit> and register it with chanserv
<yoshig3> oh
<yoshig3> well wtf
<yoshig3> lol...it sent me to "##unavailable" earlier
<LjL> !backup
<ubotu> There are many ways to back your system up. Here's a few: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/BackupYourSystem , https://help.ubuntu.com/community/DuplicityBackupHowto , https://wiki.ubuntu.com/HomeUserBackup , https://help.ubuntu.com/community/MondoMindi - See also !sbackup and !cloning
<LjL> !sbackup
<ubotu> sbackup is a tool to create complete and/or incremental backups (which can be scheduled to be automatic, and can be done over a network). It is available in !Universe
<LjL> !lost+found
<ubotu> lost+found is where fsck (the FileSystem ChecKer, which runs when you boot if you didn't shutdown cleanly) places any files it gleans from a corrupt filesystem.  These are files which had become unlinked from their parent directories.
<LjL> !fsck is the FileSystem ChecKer, which runs automatically when you boot if you didn't shutdown cleanly. Type "man fsck" for information on running it manually. The command "sudo shutdown -F -r now" will force a reboot and a filesystem check.
<ubotu> I'll remember that, LjL
<LjL> !lost+found
<ubotu> lost+found is where !fsck places any files it gleans from a corrupt filesystem.  These are files which had become unlinked from their parent directories.
<LjL> nothlit: what is /fastboot?
<yoshig3> LjL: Alright, off to format. BBL
* yoshig3 waves
<nothlit> LjL, if you create a /fastboot or /forcefsck (yes, at those locations) you can either skip fsck checking or force it on reboot
<nothlit> i used sudo touch /file in the factoid
<LjL> nothlit: yes, i knew about /forcefsck, but i didn't know about /fastboot
<LjL> !no fsck is the FileSystem ChecKer, which runs automatically when you boot if you didn't shutdown cleanly. Type "man fsck" for information on running it manually. The command "sudo shutdown -F -r now" will force a reboot and a filesystem check; "sudo touch /fastboot" will skip a filesystem check at next reboot
<ubotu> I'll remember that, LjL
<nothlit> ty :)
<jrib> TheVault: hello
<TheVault> There we go
<TheVault> well I was messing with the channels
<TheVault> Not sure which ones for what :(
<TheVault> Binary
<jrib> ok, close the update program please
<TheVault> Source
<TheVault> Its closed
<jrib> open a terminal
<jrib> !terminal
<ubotu> The linux terminal or command-line interface is very powerful. Open a terminal via Applications -> Accessories -> Terminal (Gnome) or K-menu -> System -> Konsole (KDE).  Manuals: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/BasicCommands
<TheVault> Opening
<nothlit> what're you teaching him
<TheVault> Terminal is opened
<jrib> how to fix update problems
<TheVault> :D yeah
<jrib> hopefully
<TheVault> This is one heck of a friendly chatroom thats 4 sure
<jrib> ok anything I enclose in '', means it is a command you should enter
<jrib> for example 'sudo apt-get update'
<TheVault> alright...1 quick problem I had
<TheVault> I would do that, then it would ask 4 a password
<jrib> it's your user password
<nothlit> enter in your user password
<TheVault> then why I tried entering the pass, it wouldn't type it in
<jrib> it gets entered but you don't see it
<TheVault> oh :D
<TheVault> Thanks
<jrib> that way people can't count how long your password is
<TheVault> alright, lemme type in that command
<nothlit> does ubuntu's su do that or use asterisks
<jrib> nothlit: does that
<nothlit> and hit enter
<TheVault> errors
<TheVault> & fail
<TheVault> is what I get
<jrib> ok
<jrib> good
<TheVault> :(
<jrib> now visit paste.ubuntu-nl.org
<jrib> copy and paste your errors there and then give us a link
<TheVault> alright...1 moment
<jrib> just copy all the output you get (no need to pick out the errors)
<TheVault> alright :)
<nothlit> do you really need a pastebin for such a quiet channel?
<jrib> yes
<jrib> it's easier to read
<nothlit> ahh
<jrib> and you don't need to scroll up etc
<TheVault> alright
<jrib> pasted?
<TheVault> yeah
<TheVault> a link says
<jrib> url?
<TheVault> "Download as text"
<TheVault> http://paste.ubuntu-nl.org/36882/
<TheVault> maybe thats it
<jrib> yeah
<jrib> nothlit: you happen to be on dapper?
<nothlit> jrib, nah sorry
<TheVault> I wonder if I have maybe the channels set wrong or something?
<jrib> TheVault: can you access  http://security.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/dists/dapper-security/Release.gpg  in your browser?
<TheVault> Im using
<nothlit> Where is the fetching of the regular repos
<TheVault> lemme check if I can
<jrib> good point nothlit
<TheVault> alright
<TheVault> comes up as this:
<TheVault> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.2.2 (GNU/Linux)  iD8DBQBFgBy4QJdur0N9BbURAjhEAJ456EFjSIXF6zC2GfSmUvxAB3JXKACfYIQw qshYZgilP5bk+XRUt3r3lOQ= =Y8S6 -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
<jrib> it's ok, just wanted to make sure you could access it
<TheVault> when I click that link
<TheVault> is that what im suppose to get?
<jrib> TheVault: now do this 'gedit /etc/apt/sources.list'  and pastebin the contents of that file
<jrib> TheVault: yep
<TheVault> I type that in the terminal?
<jrib> yes
<TheVault> alright
<jrib> this might be a server side problem
<TheVault> Ok, this window pops up
<jrib> yep, it should have a bunch of text in it
<TheVault> yeah
<TheVault> then what do I do/
<TheVault> ?
<jrib> copy all the text into that site like you did before with the error message
<TheVault> so ya want me to copy the text thats in that window that popped up?
<jrib> yes
<TheVault> alright, 1 moment
<jrib> should be able to  edit > select all  I think
<TheVault> Yup, here it is: http://paste.ubuntu-nl.org/36883/
<TheVault> I wonder if its the settings or something on my computer or whatnot
<TheVault> or the channels or something
<TheVault> Im using Version 6.06 LTS
<nothlit> woah
<TheVault> ....
<jrib> alright lets test something
<TheVault> alrighty :D
<jrib> TheVault: close that text editor window that opened up, it's called "gedit"
<TheVault> alrighty
<TheVault> done that
<jrib> ok, 'gksudo gedit /etc/apt/sources.list'
<TheVault> one moment
<TheVault> I get this message in the terminal
<TheVault> (gedit:8223): GnomeUI-WARNING **: While connecting to session manager:
<TheVault> Authentication Rejected, reason : None of the authentication protocols specified are supported and host-based authentication failed.
<TheVault> then another window pops up
<jrib> that's ok, you can ignore that
<TheVault> do I copy and paste the information for the window that popped up?
<jrib> ok, using your paste as a reference (http://paste.ubuntu-nl.org/36883/), comment line 30 that says:
<jrib> deb http://security.ubuntu.com/ubuntu dapper-security main restricted
<jrib> TheVault: nope, it's the same file as before
<jrib> TheVault: you comment a line by simply adding a  #  in front
<TheVault> ummm and I enter that into the terminal?
<nothlit> you gonna tell him to uncomment the main repo?
<jrib> TheVault: you have the text editor open now right?
<TheVault> ummm?
<jrib> the window that opened up
<TheVault> yeah
<jrib> it's just a plain text editor
<TheVault> oh
<jrib> we're going to edit the file
<TheVault> oh ok
<TheVault> so I find that section you told me?
<jrib> nothlit: yeah, going to try main since security sometimes has problems
<jrib> TheVault: right, it's the only one that doesn't start with a #
<jrib> except for blank lines, so I lied
<TheVault> and then i add a # in front
<jrib> yes
<TheVault> ok
<TheVault> is there a space between the # and the first letter?
<jrib> now uncomment line 16
<jrib> # deb http://archive.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/ dapper universe main restricted multiverse
<TheVault> so I uncomment that one?
<jrib> yes, just delete the # in front
<TheVault> ok did that
<jrib> ok save the file and close the window
<TheVault> saved & closed
<jrib> random question: do you have a d-link router?
<TheVault> Netgear Router
<jrib> ok
<jrib> now type 'sudo apt-get update'
<TheVault> alright
<TheVault> more errors
<jrib> do you use a proxy?
<TheVault> no
<jrib> k, pastebin those errors
<TheVault> 1 moment
<TheVault> http://paste.ubuntu-nl.org/36885/
<TheVault> I wonder what the problem could be
<jrib> yeah, it seems to try to connect to the right place "04. Ign http://archive.ubuntu.com dapper Release
<jrib> 05. Ign http://archive.ubuntu.com dapper/universe Packages
<jrib> 0Connection failed [IP: 195.248.90.35 80] 
<jrib> is what I wanted to paste
<TheVault> so is it my connection or something?
<jrib> 195.248.90.35  in your browser opens a directory listing TheVault ?
<TheVault> Lemme check
<TheVault> yeah
<TheVault> shows ubuntu folder
<TheVault> Its like when a website is not fully ready to be opened, they shows the folders and things and you can still download things from it
<jrib> yeah
<jrib> that's what apt-get is claiming it cna't connect to
<TheVault> so its a server problem and not me?
<jrib> no I don't think so
<TheVault> thats weird
<nothlit> What backend syncronises package lists?
<jrib> would it be possible to connect your computer directly instead of through the router just to test if that is the issue?
<TheVault> parents are using other computer and my moms bf is playing on the xbox so I can't
<jrib> k
<TheVault> can I download the updates manually?
<nothlit> You could, if you knew which packages needed updating
<jrib> take a look at http://www.answermysearches.com/index.php/category/ubuntu/ TheVault
<TheVault> Checking
<TheVault> Hey, I think that might be the same wireless router model that I am using
<TheVault> lemme login & check
<TheVault> This is my Model
<TheVault> Netgear WGR614v6
<TheVault> it said for his thats its v5
<TheVault> mines v6
<nothlit> Well make sure you write down all your router settings and back them up in a file if you update the firmware
<TheVault> I believe I have the updated firmware
<jrib> TheVault: what version?
<TheVault> Firmware?
<jrib> http://kbserver.netgear.com/products/wgr614v6.asp
<TheVault> my firmware is as follows
<TheVault> V1.0.11_1.0.7NA
<jrib> seems there is an update
<TheVault> Should I update?
<TheVault> Because I don't wanna have problems with my parents cause the internet is not working
<jrib> I would, but if you want to check if it really is your router, just wait until no one is using the internet
<nothlit> You can always try it, but remember you may have to enter in your internet connection information, and you will lose it momentarily
<TheVault> How would I switch back to the previous firmware version if it screws anything up?
<nothlit> Download that one too
<nothlit> and you can upload that one instead
<TheVault> I still got the install disc, would that work/
<jrib> TheVault: this looks interesting too: http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=244353
<TheVault> checking
<TheVault> Keywords?
<TheVault> whats that?
<jrib> I have no idea
<TheVault> AHHHH
<TheVault> Keyword Blocking
<TheVault> is set to Always
<TheVault> Should I disable?
<jrib> I'd find out what it is first
<TheVault> o Block Keywords Or Internet Domains:  Select when to turn on Keyword Blocking (Never, Per Schedule, or Always). In the box where you see Type Keyword Or Domain Name Here, type the word or domain name you want to block. Click Add Keyword. The word or domain name will appear in the list below. Continue adding names and keywords until you are finished. Click Apply when finished.   Block List - The list under the heading "Block Si
<TheVault> <hr>
<TheVault>   To Allow One Computer To Have Unrestricted Access To The Internet:  Select the Allow Trusted IP Address To Visit Blocked Sites check box. Type the IP address of the computer in the Trusted IP Address area.
<TheVault> You should only need to type a number in the last box. Click Apply.   To Allow Unrestricted Access To The Internet:  Select Never in the Keyword Blocking menu. Click Apply.
<TheVault> Imma disable
<jrib> k
<jrib> lol oops, he's going to get yelloed at
<jrib> yelled even
<nothlit> A DMZ?
<nothlit> The router should reconnect soon
* jrib goes looking for food
<TheVault> Back
<TheVault> Hello?
<nothlit> hi
<TheVault> alright
<TheVault> sorry, it disconnected me
<TheVault> cause I updated the disable keyword thing
<nothlit> yeah, figured
<TheVault> alright, so you want me to try updating again?
<nothlit> oh jrib went for food
<TheVault> oh alright
<nothlit> sure try
<TheVault> whats the command code?
<nothlit> sudo aptitude update
<TheVault> IT WORKS!
<nothlit> thats awesome :)
<TheVault> :D
<TheVault> Alright, whats with the channels?
<jrib> great, now you need to update your sources.list
<nothlit> now do gksudo gedit /etc/apt/sources.list and uncomment the thing you commented earlier
<TheVault> crap
<TheVault> I forgot
<TheVault> I closed all the windows
<jrib> that's ok, nothlit gave you the command
<jrib> TheVault: what do you mean by "
<jrib> channels" by the way
<TheVault> like
<TheVault> what kind of updates
<TheVault> lemme find it
<jrib> they're usually called repositories
<TheVault> Yeah that it
<TheVault> what are those for and how do I know which ones to choose?
<jrib> !repos | TheVault
<ubotu> TheVault: The packages in Ubuntu are divided into several sections. More information at https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Repositories and http://www.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/components - See also !EasySource
<TheVault> Should I have all of them checked then?
<jrib> read that first so you understand what each of them provide
<TheVault> alright....there is 2 smaller problems and I think I will be all set
<TheVault> Thanks to you guys of cource :)
<TheVault> 1: Where is the directory where all the other software is located?
<TheVault> I wanna be more organized but I have no idea
<jrib> various places in /
<TheVault> lol that helps
<jrib> binaries usually end up in /usr/bin
<TheVault> Program files
<jrib> http://www.pathname.com/fhs/pub/fhs-2.3.html  for the gory details
<TheVault> :D Thanks
<TheVault> last question
<TheVault> you probably hear this alot
<TheVault> How do I install things?
<jrib> TheVault: by the way, you usually do not have any need to touch things outside of your HOME
<TheVault> Iv read instructions but don't understand
<jrib> have you learned about synaptic?
<nothlit> Other software will mostly be in /opt ... and utilities are in /bin and /sbin
<TheVault> I don't think I have Synaptic
<jrib> system > administration > synaptic
<nothlit> !synaptic | TheVault
<ubotu> TheVault: synaptic is Ubuntu's Graphical Package Manager. For a good howto see https://help.ubuntu.com/community/SynapticHowto
<jrib> !synaptic | TheVault
<jrib> oh too slow D:
<TheVault> Synaptic Package Manager?
<jrib> yep
<TheVault> Yeah I found that, but when I download something to the desktop, the manager don't find it
<TheVault> When i search within the manager
<nothlit> Oh, if you are downloading debs, you can double click on them.
<jrib> what are you trying to install?
<TheVault> Nothing yet, I just installed Realone but thats cuz I found the help online on there site
<TheVault> well I understand how to install now
<jrib> ok
<TheVault> ummmm
<TheVault> one more quick thing :P
<jrib> sure
<TheVault> How do I create shortcuts with the programs actual shortcut
<TheVault> like for firefo
<jrib> do you mean icon?
<TheVault> *firefox, i have this world instead of a firefox icon
<TheVault> Yeah icon
<TheVault> for the program
<jrib> that's a trademark issue
<TheVault> :(
<jrib> in edgy it's gone I think?  nothlit ?
<jrib> TheVault: you can still replace it yourself
<TheVault> :D
<TheVault> How do I do that?
<jrib> first you have to find the official icon, so see if you can google for that
<TheVault> Then make a folder with all the icons in them?
<jrib> yep, just save them somewhere
<jrib> now can you right click on the ubuntu icon?  Does it say "edit menu"?
<TheVault> at the top?
<jrib> yep
<TheVault> Yeah
<TheVault> Has
<TheVault> Help,Edit Menus,Remove From Panel
<TheVault> Move
<jrib> ok when you edit menu, you can right click on a menu item in that program, go to properties, and set your own icon
<TheVault> :D
<TheVault> Alrighty
<TheVault> I would like to thank you guys for helping me :)
<jrib> np
<TheVault> Remember, I just installed Ubuntu yesterday cause I got tired of windows
<jrib> great :)
<TheVault> Yeah, but on my laptop, im keeping windows for now
<jrib> temporary situation I'm sure
<TheVault> ummmm
<TheVault> Yeah
<TheVault> Any other information you might wanna give me as a new Linux user :)
<TheVault> like how to customize linux
<TheVault> new themes or something
<jrib> !themes
<ubotu> Find your themes at: http://www.gnome-look.org - http://art.gnome.org - http://kdelook.org - http://themes.freshmeat.net/browse/58/ - http://www.guistyles.com - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/ - Also see !changethemes and https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuEyeCandy
<TheVault> !software
<ubotu> A general introduction to the ways software can be installed, removed and managed in Ubuntu can be found at https://help.ubuntu.com/community/SoftwareManagement - See also !Packages and !Equivalents
<TheVault> lol whoa thats cool
<jrib> TheVault: help.ubuntu.com is a great resource
<TheVault> :D
<TheVault> Thanks
<TheVault> Well im off to play around some more
<TheVault> Thanks for helping me
<TheVault> I really appreciate this excellent help
<nothlit> jrib, oh no edgy has the firefox icon
<jrib> k
<nothlit> jrib, they gave the sourcecode to mozilla and don't have problems with the nonfree icon
<TheVault> if I have anymore questions, I know where to look
<TheVault> Thanks guys
<TheVault> 8-)
<TheVault> One more quick question
<TheVault> lol
<TheVault> Im using Version 6.06 LTS, How would I upgrade to 6.10?
<LjL> !upgrade
<ubotu> For upgrading, see the instructions at https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UpgradeNotes
<TheVault> Thank you
<nothlit> !edgy | TheVault
<ubotu> TheVault: Ubuntu 6.10 (Edgy Eft) is the latest version of Ubuntu. Upgrading to Edgy: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/EdgyUpgrades - Downloading: http://www.ubuntu.com/download - Release Notes: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/EdgyReleaseNotes
#ubuntu-classroom 2006-12-14
<iltomee> jrib: hi
<jrib> hi
<jrib> alirght, when I surround words in '' it means it is a command to enter into your terminal, for example, try 'sudo apt-get install libc6-dev'
<jrib> pastebin any results that are longer than a few lines
<iltomee> allright
<jrib> actually, before that run 'sudo apt-get update' just to be sure
<iltomee> updated, just a sec
<iltomee> http://paste.ubuntu-nl.org/36988/
<iltomee> heres the output
<jrib> apt-cache policy libc6
<jrib> erm, that's a command, I forgot the '' :)
<jrib> !info libc6 dapper
<ubotu> libc6: GNU C Library: Shared libraries and Timezone data. In component main, is required. Version 2.3.6-0ubuntu20 (dapper), package size 4480 kB, installed size 9932 kB
<iltomee> http://paste.ubuntu-nl.org/36990/
<jrib> ok
<jrib> notice that package has a version higher than what is in dapper
<jrib> !info libc6 edgy
<ubotu> libc6: GNU C Library: Shared libraries. In component main, is required. Version 2.4-1ubuntu12 (edgy), package size 4032 kB, installed size 9988 kB
<jrib> you have the edgy version
<iltomee> ok, yeah... i see
<jrib> did you ever have edgy repositories in your sources.list?
<iltomee> i cannot say for sure, but since i was messing aroung with my source.list file, it might have happened
<jrib> well we can downgrade that one package, but we would not be sure if there are more that might cause problems for you later
<iltomee> :( i am a bad user :)
<jrib> another alternative would be to try to upgrade to edgy
<jrib> it's up to you what you want to try
<iltomee> all right, it would be horrible 4 me, if i couldnt use ubuntu, since i am in middle of exams, at university, is upgrading a "dangerous" thing to do?
<jrib> I would wait until after exams, and backup your data beforehand
<iltomee> okay, so then how is downgrading done?
<jrib> it usually works if you stick to official repositories, but if you start using outside repositories it may have a problem
<iltomee> tell me about it :(
<jrib> If I had to guess I would say the upgrade will work for you if all you did was have edgy repos for a while, but since you are in exams, it's probably safer to make sure you don't have to waste a couple of hours reinstalling
<jrib> iltomee: sudo apt-get -s install libc6=2.3.6-0ubuntu20
<jrib> that won't do anything, it will just tell you what it would do
<jrib> -s means simulate
<iltomee> http://paste.ubuntu-nl.org/36992/
<iltomee> so it would mess up open office right?
<iltomee> since now it dipends on that package we want to downgrade
<jrib> weird
<iltomee> ? is it ?
<jrib> apt-cache policy openoffice.org-l10n-en-us openoffice.org-common language-support-en
<iltomee> http://paste.ubuntu-nl.org/36993/
<iltomee> what does this mean?
<jrib> it means I'd wait until after exams
<iltomee> :) and then upgrade to edgy
<jrib> yeah
<iltomee> ?
<jrib> just backup your /home
<iltomee> ok, thx a lot... all right i will...
<jrib> that way all your settings and stuff will be saved "in case"
<jrib> !upgrade | iltomee
<ubotu> iltomee: For upgrading, see the instructions at https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UpgradeNotes
<iltomee> right
<iltomee> thx a lot!! have a good one, see u around :)
<jrib> cya, gl on your exams
<iltomee> thx
<CyD__> Hello ubuntu wolrd :)
<PuRu> jrib, hello
<jrib> PuRu: hi
<PuRu> jrib: sorry i didnt see the answer until now
<PuRu> you helped me out with my nvidia drivers a few days ago remember?
<jrib> yep, were you able to resolve the issue?
<PuRu> nope
<PuRu> i'm reinstalling again and asking help in #ubuntu-nl (in my home language)
<PuRu> do you remember the comand that showed that my version was incorrect?
<PuRu> (and do you by any chance still have my pastebin url's from back then?)
<jrib> ok, try the mailing list or forums too, someone may have gone through that
<jrib> I can grab them from my logs, one sec
<PuRu> would be nice
<PuRu> i posted them with ubuntu so i cant resolve them because i'm reinstalling
<PuRu> thzen i can allready show them to those guys
<PuRu> then they can look though them while i'm reinstalling
<PuRu> also: what was the command that showed the different versions please?
<jrib> 17:40 <          PuRu_ > http://paste.uni.cc/12138
<jrib> 17:47 <          PuRu_ > http://paste.uni.cc/12139
<jrib> 17:52 <          PuRu_ > http://paste.uni.cc/12141
<jrib> 21:08 <           PuRu > http://paste.uni.cc/12144
<jrib> 21:09 <           PuRu > xorg.conf : http://paste.uni.cc/12145
<jrib> 21:15 <           PuRu > results: http://paste.uni.cc/12146
<PuRu> thanx :D
<jrib> PuRu: apt-cache policy package_name
<PuRu> thanx
<PuRu> now they can read it all trough
<nothlit> Why does he have so many pastebins?
<PuRu> if u come up with something, let me know
<jrib> k
<jrib> nothlit: mostly because we couldn't figure out what was going on
<jrib> s/couldn't/can't
<PuRu> (not that u didnt help me good or anything, but they can help me in dutch so i'm gonna try there too)
<nothlit> Does #nvidia have better expertise?
<PuRu> didnt go there yet
<PuRu> * Now talking in #nvidia
<PuRu> * Topic is 'UNOFFICIAL NVIDIA Linux/Solaris/FreeBSD Graphics Driver Support
<PuRu> thats the NV driver right?
<nothlit> nope
<nothlit> look at the url
<PuRu> nvidia-glx ?
<PuRu> aaaaaah :-)
<nothlit> ftp://download.nvidia.com
<PuRu> ftp.nvidia.com lol
<PuRu> yeah i saw
<PuRu> i didnt know nvidia made their own unofficial drivers :p
<PuRu> how can it be unofficial then lol
<nothlit> no
<nothlit> the support is unofficial
<nothlit> :P
<PuRu> hahaha
<PuRu> not enough money to be made with linux :p
<nothlit> no, lots of free help with linux :P
<PuRu> LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL
<PuRu> been banned again at #ubuntu-nl
<nothlit> why?
<PuRu> for pasting this i got kicked:
<PuRu> <jrib> 17:40 <          PuRu_ > http://paste.uni.cc/12138
<PuRu> <jrib> 17:47 <          PuRu_ > http://paste.uni.cc/12139
<PuRu> <jrib> 17:52 <          PuRu_ > http://paste.uni.cc/12141
<PuRu> <jrib> 21:08 <           PuRu > http://paste.uni.cc/12144
<PuRu> <jrib> 21:09 <           PuRu > xorg.conf : http://paste.uni.cc/12145
<PuRu> <jrib> 21:15 <           PuRu > results: http://paste.uni.cc/12146
<nothlit> lol
<jrib> ...
<nothlit> should have put it all in one line?
<PuRu> then i told him: "too bad there are people here that DO really want to help"
<PuRu> then o got banned
<PuRu> o = i
<PuRu> (but i have dynamic ip)
<jrib> I thought about doing | grep -o 'http[^ ] *' | tr '\n' ' '   but didn't feel like typing that
<PuRu> lol its like 6 lines lol
<PuRu> and there are as many people as there are here
<PuRu> and nobody talking
<PuRu> is there a central point or something that i can e-mail/contact about this, its getting really annoying
<PuRu> its not the first time this idiot is doing this
<nothlit> !forums
<ubotu> The Ubuntu forums can be found at http://www.ubuntuforums.org. There is also a channel on IRC Freenode #ubuntuforums.
<PuRu> i'll keep that in mind if its getting excessive
<nothlit> hmm the forums factoid != the forum factoid
<PuRu> brb
<PuRu> need to recon to my ISP for a new ip :-)
<PuRu> jrib: can i annoy you again when reinstall is finished?
<PuRu> i left #ubuntu-nl because of those fools
<jrib> sure
<PuRu> too bad for the people that want to help out in ubuntu-nl
<PuRu> brb and thanx in advance
<PuRu> jrib: back, i needed to eat first
<PuRu> gonna have some delay, we're gonna get a loner car from my oncle (who deals second hand cars)
<PuRu> (remember i got a car accident)
<TheVault> I need some help
<TheVault> Think someone could help me out?
<TheVault> ????
<TheVault> :(
#ubuntu-classroom 2006-12-15
<nothlit> !ask
<ubotu> Don't ask to ask a question. Just ask your question :)
<krystyna> hello
<jrib> krystyna: hi, what is the program you are trying to install?
<krystyna> amix
<krystyna> its program wrote in c++
<krystyna> not from package
<jrib> ok, so your friend wrote it and oyu need to compile it?
<krystyna> install but i have warning
<jrib> what does this program do?
<krystyna> i can past what is there
<krystyna> its a console for chat
<jrib> ok, paste at this website: http://paste.ubuntu-nl.org
<jrib> when you are done, give me the URL
<krystyna> i haven't java and this console give me ..
<krystyna> the same like java
<krystyna> http://213.199.197.135/~kowalskijan/amix/
<krystyna> sory for my english
<jrib> krystyna: ok so tell me what you did and what happened
<krystyna> krystyna@ubuntu:~/amix$ make
<krystyna> In file included from client.c:16:
<krystyna> interfeace.h:3:21: error: ncurses.h: Nie ma takiego pliku ani katalogu
<krystyna> In file included from client.c:16:
<krystyna> interfeace.h:32: error: syntax error before * token
<krystyna> interfeace.h:32: warning: type defaults to int in declaration of chatwindow
<krystyna> and i have on all sreen more like that
<jrib> Nie ma takiego pliku ani katalogu
<jrib> can you translate that?
<krystyna> there isnt catalog ot file
<krystyna> or file
<jrib> hmm
<jrib> do this:    LANG=C make
<krystyna> ok
<krystyna> make: *** No targets specified and no makefile found.  Stop.
<jrib> hmm taht doesn't seem to work, one sec
<krystyna> ok
<jrib> do you have libncurses5-dev installed?
<krystyna> i dont know
<jrib> try installing it
<jrib> sudo apt-get install libncurses5-dev
<krystyna> could you write what i have to..
<krystyna> install
<jrib> sudo apt-get install libncurses5-dev   <-- this is the command
<krystyna> ok
<krystyna> package read tree bulid but "can not found lincurses5-dev"
<jrib> krystyna: what version of ubuntu are you using?
<krystyna> 5
<jrib> 5.04 or 5.10?
<krystyna> 04
<jrib> that one is pretty old, you should consider upgrading
<krystyna> acha
<krystyna> ok thanks for help
<jrib> krystyna: put your /etc/apt/sources.list on pastebin please
<jrib> !pastebin
<ubotu> pastebin is a service to post large texts so you don't flood the channel. The Ubuntu pastebin is at http://paste.ubuntu-nl.org (be sure to give the URL of your paste - see also the #ubuntu channel topic)
<krystyna> past amix there?
<jrib> no, do this command:
<jrib> gedit /etc/apt/sources.list
<krystyna> http://paste.ubuntu-nl.org/37233/
<jrib> hmmm
<krystyna> 5.1
<krystyna> :|
<jrib> 5.1?
<jrib> yeah, you are using 5.10
<krystyna> on top ,yes
<jrib> you should be able to install that package
<krystyna> ok
<jrib> do this and then copy all of the output to pastebin please:
<jrib> LANGUAGE=en_US sudo apt-get install libncurses5-dev
<krystyna> downloading ;>
<krystyna> configured
<jrib> it installed?
<krystyna> yes
<jrib> ok try make again
<krystyna> http://paste.ubuntu-nl.org/37236/
<jrib> you can ignore warnings
<jrib> I'm running amix right now
<jrib> krystyna: did you end up with a file called "amix" now?
<krystyna> working
<krystyna> thaaaaanks
<krystyna> :*
<krystyna> :)))))
<jrib> np
<krystyna> now i can talk on amix ;] 
<krystyna> jrib: thank you
#ubuntu-classroom 2006-12-16
<kuto> hi what is inputrc
<jrib> hi h0ndaracer2
<h0ndaracer2> hello
<h0ndaracer2> can u hold one sec
<jrib> ok, refresh my mind, you want to delete something on your desktop taht you don't have permission to?
<h0ndaracer2> yes
<jrib> ok open up a terminal
<jrib> !terminal
<ubotu> The linux terminal or command-line interface is very powerful. Open a terminal via Applications -> Accessories -> Terminal (Gnome) or K-menu -> System -> Konsole (KDE).  Manuals: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/BasicCommands
<h0ndaracer2> ok
<h0ndaracer2> got it
<jrib> anything I type between '' is a command for you to enter in the terminal.  For example:
<jrib> 'cd ~/Desktop'
<h0ndaracer2> ok
<jrib> take care to type it exactly like that with a capital 'D'
<jrib> linux is case-sensitive
<jrib> ok now type 'ls'
<h0ndaracer2> ok hit enter
<h0ndaracer2> ?
<jrib> yes
<jrib> did it list the files you have on your Desktop?
<h0ndaracer2> yes correct
<jrib> what is the name of the file you are deleting?
<h0ndaracer2> 80211g
<jrib> ok, so
<jrib> now be very sure you want to delete this, there is no undo or trash, it disappears forever
<h0ndaracer2> im shure i dont need it
<jrib> 'sudo rm -rf 80211g'
<kuto> how do i clear my terminal so it clears everything... so that my terminal looks like a new terminal without any previous inputs?
<h0ndaracer2> ok thanks jrib
<jrib> np, I'll have the bot send you some info on the cli
<jrib> !cli | h0ndaracer2
<ubotu> h0ndaracer2: The linux terminal or command-line interface is very powerful. Open a terminal via Applications -> Accessories -> Terminal (Gnome) or K-menu -> System -> Konsole (KDE).  Manuals: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/BasicCommands
<h0ndaracer2> maybe if you want to u can help me with sometin else
<jrib> h0ndaracer2: just ask in #ubuntu, that way more people can help you
<h0ndaracer2> ok
<jrib> h0ndaracer2:
<jrib> h0ndaracer2: what are you trying to do?
<kuto> how come /etc/profile in ubuntu is so small
<h0ndaracer2> im wanting to navigate to the home folder then the examples folder so i can delete ht
<jrib> kuto: you'd have to ask the package maintainer, but #ubuntu is a better place to ask questions
<h0ndaracer2> those files in example that ubuntu came with
<jrib> h0ndaracer2: that just a symbolic link I believe
<h0ndaracer2> well how do i get to those files then
<jrib> do you understand what a symbolic link is?
<h0ndaracer2> not really i told you i dont know much about linux im sorry
<jrib> that's ok, I just wanted to make sure you understood.  Don't hesitate to ask if i say something you don't understand
<jrib> a symbolic link is like a shortcut in windows
<jrib> (but better)
<h0ndaracer2> ok
<h0ndaracer2> this linux is stessing me out try to learn all this stuff
<jrib> so do you just want to remove the link so it doesn't show up in your HOME?
<h0ndaracer2> no im wanting to go into their and remove a folder
<h0ndaracer2> like my examples folder
<jrib> so you don't want the Example stuff on your computer at all?
<jrib> it's actually in /usr/share/example-content
<h0ndaracer2> yes
<jrib> and the package that installs that content is example-content
<jrib> so you should be able to just remove that package using synaptic
<h0ndaracer2> it came with the little video about ubunut and some other files
<h0ndaracer2> ok thanks i got to go for now i might be on in a hour or two maybe ill talk to you then thanks for all your help i appreciate it some people on here are a$$es
<h0ndaracer2> but thank you again
<jrib> np
<pradeep> Will the session on Kernel happen today?
<tonyyarusso> pradeep: I'm not sure, you'll have to find DBO
<pradeep> tonyyarusso, what's DBO?
<tonyyarusso> pradeep: The person I think was going to give it
<pradeep> oh ok
<pradeep> I see him in here -- > :D
<seb35690> where is the person ? We want him ! :)
<seb35690> Hi DBO
<seb35690> DBO : what about the Kernel session ?
<DBO> ooop
<DBO> dinger went off for THIS room =P
<DBO> im used to be contacted in #ubuntu-nun about this
<tonyyarusso> Good point
<DBO> ah someones still alive
<DBO> nobody signed on for sys admin 101 or advanced sys admin either?
<DBO> hmmmm a shame
<DBO> date for next classroom is set at 20:00UTC
<tonyyarusso> DBO: Not yet anyway :(
<DBO> tonyyarusso, wanna change it on the wiki for me?
* DBO dealing with makefile mania
<tonyyarusso> DBO: To 20:00?  sure.  So that's in...4 hours?
<DBO> 5
* tonyyarusso checks clock
<tonyyarusso> um...
<DBO> oh nevermind
<tonyyarusso> I think I'm rgiht
<DBO> windows...
<tonyyarusso> oh, 'k
<tonyyarusso> hehe
<DBO> dual booting
<DBO> 4 hours
<tonyyarusso> DBO: Are you doing both days?
<DBO> yeah
<DBO> guess so
<DBO> nobody else seems to wanna =P
<krystyna> <<Unable to lock the administration directory (/var/lib/dpkg/), is another process using it?
<krystyna> >>
<krystyna> when i want install java something like that is on screen
<DBO> krystyna, do you have synaptic open?
<DBO> or apt-get running elsewhere?
<krystyna> now yes but when i tried install java i hadn't run else..
<DBO> krystyna, if you are sure you have no other process running with apt
<DBO> you can manually remove the lockfile in /var/lib/dpkg
<krystyna> how manually remove>?
<krystyna> im in directory /var/lib/dpkg
<krystyna> and what i have to do...
<DBO> delete the file named lock
<krystyna> :/
<krystyna> access denied
<reverseblade> wow
<Maikel> ,
<yipe> is it okay for us to talk?
<Maikel> no
<jrib> yipe talked! ban him!
<ph8> now you've talked
<ph8> ban them all!
<jrib> of course it's ok, it hasn't started yet :)
<yipe> okay 
<Wooksta> what sort of level of detail we going into here? :)
<dougsko> hey guys
<DBO> mmmm a crowd =)
<reverseblade> lol
<Maikel> were gonna lynch DBO
<DBO> yay I love mobs!
<DBO> starting in 2 minutes (theoretically)
<dougsko> i didnt know this channel was here
<seb35690> DBO you're a boss remember ! ;)
<dougsko> this is a cool idea
<reverseblade> DBO, are you an ubuntu dev ?
<DBO> reverseblade, no, I am only relatively loosely affiliated with Ubuntu
<dougsko> what other kind of "classes" are there in here?
<ryanakca> dougsko: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Classroom  has a list of all the classes we've hosted :)
<DBO> ok ladies and gentlemen, we are going to get going
<dougsko> ryanakca: cool thanks
<seb35690> let's go !
* Wooksta gets pen & paper our
<DBO> let me first lay out the ground rules
<DBO> there are two breaks for questions, one in the middle
<DBO> and one half way through
<DBO> feel free to /msg me questions at any time though and I will get to them during the question sessions
<DBO> this topic is intended for new users mostly
<DBO> and for users who hear the word kernel and think popcorn =)
<DBO> so lets begin
<DBO> Before we begin we need to get a bit of background history both on what an OS is and where Linux comes from.
<DBO> We will start with the beginnings of Linux.  Keep in mind that this session is intended for the new user with little or no technical experience, and will not get hung up on terminology.
<DBO> We will be spending a lot of time dealing with modules, I thought long and hard about whether or not this was important and decided that if there was one thing users should learn, its how to deal with modules.
<DBO> Most users wont compile there own kernel, but many with have their own set of modules to deal with.  So that will be a large focus.
<DBO> However before we can really dive into all of that
<DBO> we need to get a general idea of what Linux actually is
<DBO> many of you may know already that linux is a unix like operating system, and from the users point of view it is perfectly ok (ideology aside) to think of Linux as a type of Unix
<DBO> However there are a couple key differences
<DBO> namely, Unix is closed source (excluding the BSD's) where as Linux is open source, and equally as important, Linux is free to the user.
<DBO> Linux started as a small Hobbyist OS, written by Linus Torvalds, and moved on from there.
<DBO> As it grew in complexity, so did the OS that ran on top of it, which too began to be called Linux (or GNU/Linux)
<DBO> This has become a small point of confusion however
<DBO> Linux is the name of the kernel, and it is also the name of the OS which incorporates the kernel
<DBO> To contrast this, OS X (apples OS) has a kernel named XNU, and Windows up to Vista, had a kernel named NT
<DBO> AS you may guess, this has lead to a lot of confusion about what Linux actually is
<DBO> So for the sake of this class, let use be very very clear, Linux is the kernel on which GNU/Linux, the operating system, runs on top of.
<DBO> Confusing?  Probably, so we need to also briefly cover what an Operating System is
<DBO> Operating Systems are the most basic set of programs on your computer that make the work you do possible, this DOES include the kernel.
<DBO> Make note, an Operating System has a Kernel, but a Kernel is not an Operating System.
<DBO> Sometimes you interact with the OS directly, sometimes through the applications you use.
<DBO> So let's lay out the hierarchy right now, we have to do it eventually and it always seems too early.
<DBO> There are layers to a computer operating system, four of them in Unix to be precise.
<DBO> Layer one, the very top layer, we will call Users.  Layer two we will call Shells, layer three will be Linux (the Kernel), and layer four will be the hardware itself.
<DBO> so it looks like:
<DBO> Users
<DBO> Shells
<DBO> Kernel
<DBO> Hardware
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [+o DBO]  by ChanServ
<DBO> simple enough?
<DBO> oh thank you =)
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [+m]  by DBO
<DBO> its hard to get good help =P
<DBO> anyhow
<DBO> These layers interact only with the layer above or below them with a couple exceptions we wont be covering
<DBO> So as a user to get something done, you interact with shells, shells interact with the kernel, the kernel interacts with the hardware, gets the result, and passes the info back up the chain of command
<DBO> From this rather simplistic view it is easy to guess where the rest of the "OS" is if its not the kernel, and clearly its not the user, it must be the "shells".
<DBO> And thats pretty much right, before we had a GUI (graphical user interface) your OS was the shell and all the basic commands you could run from it.
<DBO> Even today for the most part GUI applications are not really part of the OS but things that run on top of it (excluding the case of Windows).
<DBO> Do however keep in mind that what is and is not part of your OS is often a fuzzy line
<DBO> This is the basic set of knowledge we need to continue on with our kernel
<DBO> at this time we are going to take a short 5 minute break for questions
<DBO> I want to make sure everyone is fairly clear on what is going on ehre
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [-m]  by DBO
<DBO> you may ask questions directly in the room =)
<Ma1kel> Are you single??
<DBO> no
<Wooksta> whats the expected duration of this class (approx)?
<DBO> I can adjust for your preference =)
<Ma1kel> :))
<Wooksta> well i aint got much to do for the rest of the night so go as low as u want :P
<DBO> everyone is clear on these basic concepts then?
<LjL> DBO: is my thinking correct that even the concept of a "kernel" can really only apply when you're talking about an OS that runs with 1) virtualized memory and 2) kernel protection (i.e. applications can't go into kernel mode)?
<LjL> at least, the possibility of clearly separating "kernel" and "the rest" without putting another fuzzy line on there
<DBO> LjL, in the sense we will be discussing it yes
<DBO> LjL, it gets fuzzy when you talk about multi-tasking operating systems that dont offer virtualized memory and kernel protection in any sense
<DBO> but those are no longer around so we wont worry about them
<LjL> DBO: yes, that was the kind of thing i had in mind, and yes, i realize it hardly applies to today's systems anymore
<DBO> its a very good point though
<DBO> as computers grow in complexity
<DBO> it becomes harder and harder to figure out what classification any one piece of code belongs to
<DBO> any other questions? =)
<DBO> ok let's move on
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [+m]  by DBO
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [-m]  by DBO
<DBO> Im going to leave that off
<DBO> just ask question whenever since there is not many people here =)
<DBO> We can move on to discussing a couple features that make the Linux kernel special
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [+o LjL]  by ChanServ
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-classroom:LjL] : Ubuntu Open Week has now finished - thanks , everyone! | The classroom schedule is located at: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Classroom | Transcripts and logs are at: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ClassroomTranscripts and http://www.tonyyarusso.is-a-geek.com/irclogs/openweek/ | Current session: The Linux Kernel
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [-o LjL]  by LjL
<DBO> these features are present in other kernels of course, but they are some of the most basic features of the Linux kernel that make everything you see and do on Linux possible
<DBO>  Linux is a multitasking operating system, which also means its kernel has to handle multitasking, after all, it is part of the operating system.
<DBO> What does this mean?  Well it means that the kernel is taking care of "interrupting" applications so that another one can work.
<DBO> Keep in mind that your computer can only really do one things at once, so when it works on one thing it puts other things on hold
<DBO> It is the kernel that decides which thing needs to work and when, and it is very smart about it
<DBO> Your kernel will take note when one application is waiting on data, for example if your music player is waiting on that mp3 file from your hard drive, it can't start to decode it until the file gets there.
<DBO> So the kernel will put that process on hold until the data gets there, giving other processes a chance to use the hardware.
<DBO> This takes place very very very fast however, in the short time we have been discussing this your kernel has switched between different tasks thousands of times, making sure they all have the processing time from the hardware that they need.
<DBO> In fact, this is where the concept of processor time comes from, the more a process has to access the hardware, the more processor time it uses.
<DBO> This very basic functionality was one of the most important features in early kernels/operating systems and today remains one of the core technologies of computers.
<DBO> Without this ability running more than one application at a time would become impossible
<DBO> The kernel like we mentioned, deals with all hardware interaction, so when you save a file, your application makes a request that gets passed along to the kernel.
<DBO> The kernel will make the decision on whether or not to let you, and even when to write it out.
<DBO> In general Linux will delay actually writing the data to the hard drive as long as reasonably possible so that if the data is called up again, as is quite often the case, it already has it loaded in memory (note that one of the slowest devices in your system is the hard drive).
<DBO> However this is not without its own problems
<DBO> Having so many programs running at once can cause its own issues for the computer.
<DBO> Each program will need its own set of memory from the system.
<DBO> So it calls out to the kernel says "hey, I need 10MB of memory" and the kernel says back "ok, here you go, your memory is at address 400-2000".
<DBO> This is what we call virtualized memory (and no, your kernel does not speak english =P)
<LjL> DBO: about the hard drive... when a given task is using too much CPU for my likings, i know i can "renice" it, i.e. change the scheduling priority. is there anything like that for I/O activity in Linux?
<DBO> for the most part no, I/O will be load balanced fairly equally
<DBO> but there is no quick method Im aware of
<DBO> So our application has requested from the kernel a chunk of memory, and the kernel has provided it
<DBO> normally our application would use this memory and all is well
<DBO> However often times poorly writing applications might try to write to memory they are not assigned, and if they were allowed to this could result in a whole range of badness all the way up to a full fledged system crash.
<DBO> The operating system will prevent this of course, this is called Memory Protection.
<DBO> Older systems this was not the case
<DBO> memory protection is one of the biggest improvements in computer stability ever
<DBO> One of the most fun bits of Linux is just how portable it is.  Everyone jokes that they have Linux running on their wristwatch and so on, but in the end it really can be run on just about anything.
<DBO> It runs on PDA's, Routers, Macs, PC's, Sun systems, I'm sure it would run on R2D2 if we could get him to stop saving the Universe for a minute.
<LjL> ... that provides memory protection hardware ;)
<DBO> ah yes
<DBO> In fact Linux runs on 20+ different processor architectures, it will even run on your iPod.
<DBO>  However this was not always so, and Linux has had to go through a lot of work and different versions to get there.  We are currently in version 2.6.17 in Edgy Eft.
<DBO> These numbers are not just random, so lets look at them for a bit.  The first number defines the kernel version, and is changed only when VERY major changes in the kernel occur.
<DBO>  In fact this has only changed twice, one from 0 to 1, and again for 1 to 2.
<DBO> The second number designates then major revision of the kernel version, and the third number is minor revisions (driver changes and so on)
<DBO> You will sometimes see a forth number tacked on, these designate a bugfix or security release that does not quite justify a new minor revision.
<DBO> There is a bit of confusion going around right now about even and odd numbers.  Even numbers are often said to be stable releases, odd numbers unstable releases when talking about the second number.
<DBO> So 2.6 is said stable and 2.7 unstable.  This actually used to be the case, which is where the confusion comes from.
<DBO> Prior to the 2.6 release, even numbers did mean stable and odd meant development.
<DBO> So 2.4 was a stable release but 2.3 was a developer release.  Please note that this is no longer the case, odd and even have no more significance.
<DBO> In fact, all of this mumbo jumbo about what your kernel is doing is not so far out of your grasp, we can actually look and see what our kernel has been up to.
<DBO> so the first and most basic command we introduce new users to is the "dmesg" command.
<DBO> It is perfectly safe to run this command for yourself, feel free to try it on your own PC.
<DBO> dmesg will show you what errors and informational message your kernel has for you =)
<DBO> A lot of times you will see info about hardware drivers being loaded, network interface errors, hits on firewall rules sometimes pop up in there.
<DBO>  This is the most basic way to interact with your kernel, by looking at what it has to say.
<DBO>  This has a lot of usage and some of you may have even been asked to use this when troubleshooting problems in #ubuntu.
<DBO> Of course simply watching is no fun
<DBO> So we need to learn to interact with our Linux kernel, and to do that, we need to understand that our Kernel is Voltron
<DBO> Some of this may be confusing at first, but we will be doing a hands on excersize shortly.
<DBO> There is one other key feature to talk about however, that being kernel modules.  Kernel modules are, unsurprisingly, modular additions to the kernel to add functionality.
<DBO> The most common kind of kernel module you will deal with is a device driver.
<DBO> If you are running a nvidia video card and you wish to have OpenGL working, you need to load the nvidia kernel module.
<DBO> Even things like file system support have been put into kernel modules today, there are tons of them
<DBO> To see every kernel module you have loaded right now, simply enter "lsmod" into a terminal.
<DBO> To see how many of them are loaded, you can pipe that to wc -l via "lsmod | wc -l"
<DBO> Most of you will see things like "soundcore" which is the core of sound production, or "floppy" which provideds floppy disk support.
<DBO> pretty obvious what those do
<DBO> However some of them like.... say agpgart are not so obvious.
<DBO> However if you look to the right a bit you can see two sets of numbers, those give the size of the module and how many times they are in usage (you can use a module multiple times).
<DBO> To the right of that it lists even more modules, you can think of these modules as depending on the module you are looking at, because more or less they do.
<DBO> So it becomes pretty clear now, agpgart is loaded because your video card needs it (for the AGP bus).
<DBO> Even still some modules don't have anything listed as things that depend on them, but we can still get more info.  Running the command "modinfo font" gives us information about the module named "font".
<DBO> This will give us information about the license, author, and a basic description of the module.  In this case James Simmons is the author, he licensed it GPL, and the module provides us with Console Fonts
<DBO> To simply get the description of the module, you can do "modinfo -d font", however if the module has no discription (as is often true or closed source modules), this will return nothing.
<DBO> One thing to note about modules is that they do not HAVE to be modules.   When you compile your kernel (which we will not be covering), or it was compiled for you, modules can be compiled into the kernel directly so they cannot be removed.
<DBO> This makes the kernel custom to the machine you are on, but makes it essentially useless for things like Ubuntu where we have a large number of people using the same kernel.
<DBO> Any questions so far? =)
<jrib> is there any advantage to compiling modules into the kernel?
<seb35690> like performance ?
<DBO> yes
<DBO> performance will be slightly better
<ShakaNoobSaint> why exactly?
<DBO> when you abstract things out to modules and such there is a slight overhead
<DBO> when you compile is one hunk of code it is more streamlined
<DBO> thats why distros like gentoo compile all the modules you need for your hardware right into the kernel
<DBO> of course this comes at the high price of actually having to compile your own kernel
<seb35690> how about ubuntu ?
<DBO> which in that sense, Linux is fairly unique as the only OS available to users where this is readily available to you as an option
<DBO> Ubuntu does not have you recompile the kernel on your own
<DBO> so almost all drivers (excluding some very core ones) are loaded in as modules
<reverseblade> how about smp and apic are these modules too ?
<DBO> APIC is, smp is part of the kernel
<reverseblade> why did we stop ?
<DBO> ok we are going to move on
<DBO> (was waiting to see if there are more questions)
<DBO> Loading/Stopping Modules at Boot:
<DBO> wait
<DBO> wrong header =P
<DBO> I jumped ahead
<DBO> Inserting and Removing your own modules:
<DBO> There is more to do with kernel modules however, you can insert your own kernel module with "sudo modprobe [kernel module] " and the module will be inserted until it is either removed or the machine is rebooted.
<DBO> You can remove them with "sudo modprobe -r [kernel module] "
<DBO> So let's try it out, I encourage everyone to give this a run
<DBO> We are going to load in a dummy module, confirm that it loaded, then unload it.
<reverseblade> what do you mean with own modules ?
<DBO> well
<DBO> not every module gets loaded at boot
<seb35690> So we don't have to compile Kernel with Ubuntu for better performances ?
<seb35690> I'm a newbie:)
<DBO> seb35690, you could get a small performance boost that way yes
<DBO> but its not worth it
<DBO> the performance increase would be very very tiny
<DBO> and hard to measure
<reverseblade> you don't mean custom modules but , unloaded modules by "own modules"
<DBO> yes
<DBO> sorry
<jrib> seb35690: might be a good learning exercise if you are curious but don't do it if you are trying to make your computer go faster
<DBO> you can insert and remove modules that are not otherwise loaded in your kernel
<seb35690> ok jrib I understand
<DBO> First we load the module with "sudo modprobe dummy"
<DBO> that command will load in the module named "dummy"
<DBO> it doesnt do anything, but its there for fun things like this
<DBO> Generally when we enter this command nothing will happen, just a new line and no output, that means no errors as far as finding the module.
<DBO> Now if this were a real module we could run the command "dmesg" which we talked about earlier to see info about what the module has done thus far.
<DBO> This is extremely useful in the case where you module is loading but it does not seem to be working properly.
<DBO> Let's confirm that the module has indeed loaded using the "lsmod" command.  Run "lsmod | grep ^dummy", we are piping it to grep to do a search, and searching for a line that starts with (carrot means start with) dummy.
<DBO> You should see output containing the word "Dummy"
<DBO> this means that your dummy module loaded fine =)
<DBO> Now run the command "sudo modprobe -r dummy" and then search for dummy in lsmod again.  It is no longer there.
<narvik86> rmmod is for the same?
<DBO> That is it, that is all there is to loading and unloading modules.  However this is only temporary, as soon as you remove them or reboot the machine they will no longer load until requested by you again
<DBO> narvik86, yep
<DBO> I tend to use sudo modprobe -r as its seems more consistent if you are going to use modprobe to the put the module in, why not use it to remove it too?
<DBO> ok
<DBO> Often users will find they have to load modules to make certain parts of their hardware work.
<DBO> For example a lot of TV Tuner card users must load the ivtv module when they boot.
<jrib> description for for rmmod says most users will want to use modprobe
<DBO> yep =)
<DBO> same for insmod
<DBO> IVTV, by the way, does not come with Ubuntu so they also have to compile it but thats a whole other class.
<DBO> To load a module on boot you simply add the name of the module to the end of /etc/modules.
<DBO> So ivtv users would add ivtv on a new line to the end of that file.
<DBO> If you wished to prevent a module from loading which is not uncommon for ndiswrapper users, you would add a line that looked like "blacklist [module] " to /etc/modprobe.d/blacklist
<DBO> This would prevent the file from being loaded at boot and allow you to add ndiswrapper to /etc/modules safely.
<DBO> These files all both owned by root
<DBO> and you will need root access to modify them
<DBO> however I encourage you to look at your modules and blacklist files and see whats in them
<reverseblade> DBO, what is the correlation between modules or drivers ,or are there any ?
<DBO> there is a large corelation
<DBO> correlation even
<DBO> in linux, for the most part, drivers ARE modules
<DBO> most every single driver on your system is loaded into your kernel as a module
<DBO> your kernel can then use that module (driver) to talk to the hardware
<jrib> can you only modprobe stuff in /etc/modules then?
<DBO> nope
<DBO> you can modprobe in anything that you have a module file fore
<DBO> stuff in /etc/modules will be loaded in at boot however
<DBO> so you generally wont need to modprobe it in yourself =)
<jrib> what's the reason for a blacklist instead of just removing it from /etc/modules?
<DBO> (note modprobe is not really a verb, but what do I care?)
<Wooksta> do u need to specify the full path to a module you build or do you put it in a special directory?
<DBO> jrib, your kernel on boot will try to load modules for hardware it detects
<jrib> DBO: ah
<DBO> Wooksta, when you make install the modules it will put it in the special directory for modules
<Wooksta> ok thanks, whats that dir location btw? :>
<DBO> /lib/modules/KERNELVERSION
<Wooksta> ok thanks :)
<DBO> modules are specific to the kernel they were compiled on
<DBO> any other questions? =)
<DBO> im pretty well wrapped up
<seb35690> an example with an Nvidia graphic card ?
<DBO> an example for what?
<Wooksta> im actaully having trouble getting my nvidia card to work but i was gonna ask about that at the end  :P
<seb35690> "modules are specific to the kernel they were compiled on"
<DBO> if you want you can see your nvidia kernel module by doing "lsmod | grep nvidia"
<DBO> seb35690, ah yes, perfect example
<DBO> Wooksta, well perhaps its a good learning experience
<DBO> what trouble are you having?
<Wooksta> well i installed nvidia-glx and when i do "sudo nvidia-glx-config enable" i get the following error: "Error: unable to load nvidia kernel driver! Be sure to have installed the nvidia driver for your running kern"
<DBO> Wooksta, ok run this command
<DBO> modinfo nvidia
<DBO> does it say it cant find the file?
<Wooksta> got a whole load of stuff back u want me to look for something specific?
<Wooksta> filename:       /lib/modules/2.6.17-10-generic/volatile/nvidia.ko  <-- seems to be able to find the file
<DBO> and it seems you are running the ubuntu version to boot
<DBO> run this command "sudo nvidia-xconfig"
<Wooksta> new xorg.conf written
<DBO> now restart X and you should be good ot go
<Wooksta> ok whats the best way to restart x?
<seb35690> CTRL+ALT+F1
<DBO> log out of GNOME/KDE
<DBO> then ctrl + alt + backspace
<Wooksta> ok brb, thanks :)
<seb35690> yes excuse me
<seb35690> :(
<DBO> seb35690, perfectly ok =)
<DBO> ctrl alt F1 switches to a console
<DBO> but doesnt shut down X
<seb35690> yes i know it
<DBO> that pretty well wraps up todays session
<DBO> transcripts will be made available
<DBO> and I will post the whole speech I wrote and worked from in paragraph form as well
<Wooksta> well im now on a nice 640x480 so something happened :P
<ShakaNoobSaint> awseome, thanks for the "class" DBO
<DBO> Wooksta, we'll have to move this to #ubuntu-xgl
<DBO> ShakaNoobSaint, =)
<Wooksta> no problem, thanks for the class, hope theres another few soon :)
<seb35690> Thnaks DBO, it's perfectly clear !
<seb35690> *Thanks
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [+o LjL]  by ChanServ
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-classroom:LjL] : Ubuntu Open Week has now finished - thanks , everyone! | The classroom schedule is located at: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Classroom | Transcripts and logs are at: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ClassroomTranscripts and http://www.tonyyarusso.is-a-geek.com/irclogs/openweek/
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [-o LjL]  by LjL
<h0ndaracer2> can someone help  me wit something in an installion real quick
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [-o DBO]  by ChanServ
<ShakaGoldSaint> ?
<seb35690> is there a sesson tomorrow ?
<seb35690> *session
<sonicGB> Schedule is here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Classroom#head-3ed0e83bca0918de43c895c4bb96d9bb50d446a9
<seb35690> I mean, will it be the same content ?
<seb35690> the same content that today ?
#ubuntu-classroom 2006-12-17
<pradeep> Where can I find the logs for the kernel session?
<seb35690> about the today session...
<seb35690> Will the content be the same as yesterday ?
<jrib> I believe that's usually how it's done seb35690
<seb35690> ok thanks a lot
<seb35690> when does the session begin ?
<jrib> seb35690: not sure, is it up on the wiki page?
<jrib> hmm the wiki page says 20 minutes ago
<seb35690> jrib: yes
<jrib> I pinged (pang?) DBO
<seb35690> jrib: some news of DBO ?
<jrib> seb35690: no he doesn't seem to be around
<seb35690> jrib: it seems that the today's classroom is aborted ;)
<seb35690> maybe
<jrib> yes, it seems that way
<jrib> Hello!
<jrib> Hello!
<jrib> ...
<jrib> pos
<unix_infidel> Did the kernel session go down, i cant seem to find the transcripts up.
<nalioth> unix_infidel: poke jrib, it's all his fault  :p
<jrib> unix_infidel: yes, there was a session yesterday, I don't know if the transcripts are up yet
* nalioth lights a fire under jrib.  Get with it!  :p
* jrib loads vim
<nalioth> jrib: what is up with irssi-python, anyway?
<jrib> Hello!
<jrib> it's working
<jrib> why can't wikis use consistent markup...
<jrib> unix_infidel: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Classroom/Log/2006-12-16  not lined on the transcript page yet
#ubuntu-classroom 2007-12-13
* LjL changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Please join #ubuntu for support | This channel used for scheduled classes and invitational tutoring | Ubuntu Open Week info: Information and Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek | Ubuntu classroom transcripts: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ClassroomTranscripts | Next class: PPA 101 on 11/28 at 15:00 UTC | Kubuntu Tutorials Day today at 15:00 UTC in #kubuntu-develop - https://wiki.kubuntu.org/KubuntuTutorialsDay
<giudecca> slt
#ubuntu-classroom 2007-12-14
<warp10> Hi all
* dholbach changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Please join #ubuntu for support | This channel used for scheduled classes and invitational tutoring | Ubuntu Open Week info: Information and Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek | Ubuntu classroom transcripts: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ClassroomTranscripts | MOTU Q&A session every Friday 13:00 UTC
<dholbach> MOTU Q&A session in 6 minutes
 * Hobbsee evacuates this irc room
 * persia doesn't have a copy of the evacuation plan, and hopes huddling in the doorway is sufficient
<dholbach> :)
<apachelogger__> ahoy
<dholbach> heya
<dholbach> welcome to another MOTU Q&A session! how are you all doing?
<dholbach> let's start with our usual round of introductions :-)
<cheguevara> sleepy :P
<Kmos> in a minutes of lunch time =)
<txwikinger2> hi folks
 * dholbach is Daniel Holbach, member of the MOTU team, tries to help to make becoming a MOTU as enjoyable and straightforward as possible :)
<Kmos> and also member of MOTU Council =)
 * Hobbsee is car searching.
 * Hobbsee has no name.
 * txwikinger2 is a MOTU-contributor and wants to become a MOTU .. .and has having a blast doing it
<Hobbsee> oh wait, i'm the MOTU clown!  That's right!
<cheguevara> lol
<Kmos> Hobbsee: hehe
<ian_brasil> hi all
<dholbach> who of you was in the Kubuntu Tutorials Session yesterday?
 * persia is Emmet Hikory, MOTU, who likes to see bugs closed, and contributions from anyone.
<dholbach> I see a bunch of familiar nicks in here
<txwikinger2> /me
<Kmos>  /not me
 * apachelogger__ is Harald Sitter, MOTU, focused on KDE stuff
<dholbach> did anybody bring a few questions today? maybe something that was unclear in the session yesterday?
<dholbach> for those of you who couldn't make it yesterday, the busy kubuntu people already put up logs of the sessions: https://wiki.kubuntu.org/KubuntuTutorialsDay
<dholbach> welcome seyo1
<dholbach> no questions? no problems you ran into recently?
<mruiz> hi all
<dholbach> hi mruiz
<apachelogger__> hey mruiz
<zul> yes if a tree falls in a forrest..oh wait
<mruiz> hi dholbach, apachelogger__
<dholbach> zul: hehe
<Kmos> hi mruiz !
<mruiz> Kmos, ;-)
 * txwikinger2 is just enjoying it atm... 
<persia> Any question welcome.  Things from yesterday, or anything else about MOTU, packaging, process, etc.
<mruiz> I have one question with a merge... about the version
<dholbach> mruiz: fire away
<mruiz> dholbach, sure
<seyo1> hi there
 * mruiz is looking for the changelog...
<dholbach> mruiz: which package was it about?
<mruiz> dholbach, mailping (bug #175998) ... MoM gave me this changelog: http://paste.ubuntu-nl.org/48196/
 * Hobbsee takes this opportunity to remind people that anyone who uploads an i386.changes file to REVU, when contributing, will be taken out and shot, personally.
<dholbach> mruiz: OK, what is your question about it?
 * txwikinger2 thinks Australians should not bear arms
 * Hobbsee goes on lookout for the 4 people who managed to ignore all documentation on the subject, and do just that.
 * persia notes that this would be a figurative shot, and rather means that the upload won't be processed.
<Hobbsee> persia: i don't know about that....
<dholbach> couldn't REVU deal with it gracefully?
<Hobbsee> dholbach: oh, it just sits in incomming
<dholbach> mruiz: is your question about the version in the changelog?
<Hobbsee> my problem more is the fact that people do not read, or do not comprehend, or something.
<dholbach> Hobbsee: couldn't REVU just delete it in a cronjob?
<mruiz> if you look about package dates, I think that changelog is wrong Debian version is the latest (Mon, 24 Sep 2007 09:46:25 +0200)... then the merge version must be based on Debian version
 * txwikinger2 is relieved
<dholbach> let's take the REVU discussion to #ubuntu-motu
<Hobbsee> hrm.  konversation != firefox
<cheguevara> xchat > konversation
<apachelogger> Quassel > xchat > konversation
<Hobbsee> pft.
<apachelogger> but that's another topic :P
<elisiano> is there a way to make konversation open the right channel when i click on a channel name (#channel instead of \channel)
<mruiz> dholbach, did you understand?
<apachelogger> elisiano: #konversation or #kubuntu please
<dholbach> mruiz: one thing I note in the changelog is the confusion about the version
<dholbach> the ubuntu update from 0.0.4-1 shouldn't have been 0.0.4ubuntu4
<elisiano> yeah that wasn't a request, justa complain :D
<dholbach> 0.0.4-1ubuntu1 can't be the next version number
<dholbach> daniel@lovegood:~$ dpkg --compare-versions 0.0.4ubuntu4 gt 0.0.4-1ubuntu1; echo $?
<dholbach> 0
<dholbach> daniel@lovegood:~$
<dholbach> so  0.0.4ubuntu4 > 0.0.4-1ubuntu1
<dholbach> mruiz: I'm sure that's a reason why the changelog merge went wrong
<mruiz> for me, the correct merge changelog should be: http://paste.ubuntu-nl.org/48197/
<dholbach> that doesn't work
<dholbach> we have 0.0.4ubuntu4 in the archive now
<persia> Err..  0.0.4ubuntu4 was the right version: 0.0.4-1 was the mistake.  Current Ubuntu versioning policy doesn't support Debian NMUs of native packages, which causes this sort of issue.
<dholbach> which is greater than 0.0.4-1ubuntu1
<dholbach> persia: I don't understand
<persia> OK.  In Debian, a native package has a version like X.Y.Z
<persia> When we make an Ubuntu variation, we version it X.Y.ZubuntuN
<dholbach> ok... looking at the full changelog I see what you mean
<persia> If there is a Debian NMU of a native package, Debian uploads X.Y.Z-0.N
<txwikinger2> why is there a version x.y.z and one x.y.z-a.b in debian then?
<dholbach> listen to persia, persia is right :)
<persia> However, since X.Y.Z-0.N < X.Y.ZubuntuN, we can't follow the version, and need to push X.Y.Zubuntu(N+1)
<apachelogger> txwikinger2: this is from what I understand an ubuntu native package
<apachelogger> hence debian _only_ can make a NMU upload since the maintainer is working on ubuntu
<txwikinger2> ah
<persia> Unfortunately, in this case, someone in Debian QA was confused by this strange practice of NMU versioning in Debian, and uploaded 0.0.4-1, which would indicate a non-native Debian package.
<apachelogger> so they should version x.y.z-0.n
<apachelogger> although Michael did a -1
<persia> MoM is very confused about this: the correct version to upload with the merge is 0.0.4ubuntu5, and the mess should be left in the old changelog due to the "don't change history" policy.
<dholbach> mruiz: are things becoming more clear now?
<mruiz> sure!
<dholbach> any other questions?
<txwikinger2> how should it be done correctly to avoid this mess :)
<mruiz> dholbach, sure.... then, how is the procedure? (my merge is ready... just waiting for the correct version number)
<apachelogger> txwikinger2: debian only does uploads like x.y.z-0.n
<apachelogger> the 0.n is the important part of course ;-)
<dholbach> the only reasonable thing we can do is have a 0.0.4ubuntu5
<dholbach> the version number must be greater, else the upload will be rejected
 * mruiz changing the version number...
<txwikinger2> and the apt-get install too
<dholbach> right
 * persia notes that there is both discussion in Debian whether -0.N makes sense, and discussion in Ubuntu whether -0ubuntuN makes sense, and both have lots of problems, so this will likely exist for a while yet.
<persia> Err..  -0.0ubuntuN
<dholbach> any other questions about processes, how to XYZ done in ubuntu, a specific packaging problem, something you always wondered? don't be shy :)
<txwikinger2> Every ubuntu native package has "ubuntu" in its version ?
<persia> txwikinger2: No.
<mruiz> dholbach, another question about debian/control file
<dholbach> mruiz: fire away
<persia> txwikinger2: More verbosely, most true Ubuntu-native packages are versioned as X.Y.Z.  Some native packages from Debian are changed in Ubuntu, and are versioned X.Y.ZubuntuN.  Some Ubuntu native packages are adopted by Debian, and versions become confusing.
<dholbach> txwikinger2: python-launchpad-bugs for example doesn't :)
<mruiz> I was preparing other merge, and Debian version includes new fields ...http://paste.ubuntu-nl.org/48199/ (lines with *)
<dholbach> http://paste.ubuntu-nl.org/48199/
<mruiz> thanks dholbach
<dholbach> mruiz: what's your question about them?
<mruiz> how to include them into Ubuntu changelog?
<dholbach> mruiz: when you do a merge you preserve the debian/changelog we inherit from debian
<persia> mruiz: I'd suggest keeping Uploaders, Homepage, and XS-DM-Allowed.  I'd suggest dropping Vcs-* for a merge, as the Ubuntu packaging is not included in that location.
<dholbach> mruiz: but in your entry, you list the changes that we have over the debian package
 * persia answered the wrong question :(
<geser> mruiz: have you changed them? if no, then why mentioning them in the Ubuntu changelog entry?
<geser> persia: is there some consensus what to do with Vcs-* fields from Debian in Ubuntu?
<mruiz> as we have a "special" field for the maintainer, I had doubts about another Debian-based fields
<dholbach> mruiz: best to just keep them to keep the diff small
<mruiz> ok
<dholbach> just list the 'remaining changes'
<persia> geser: Trend is towards dropping Vcs-* for packages where it doesn't point at the right place for packaging (e.g. Ubuntu variation with non-Ubuntu Vcs-*).  I haven't seen formal docs yet.
<mruiz> dholbach,  yes... I do. Just I want to know more about the process ;-)=
<dholbach> mruiz: which process? :)
<mruiz> merging
<dholbach> just ask :)
<ScottK> persia: Then I think we should have agreement on it at a MOTU meeting before giving out advice that's the way to do it.
<persia> mruiz: The only special field currently is "Maintainer".  "Vcs-*" is under discussion, but there isn't yet an official position.
<dholbach> if you feel there are things missing on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopment/Merging please say so
<dholbach> ScottK: I think this should be decided in the big ubuntu picture
<dholbach> I know that mvo had some ideas on how to solve the problem
<txwikinger2> dholbach: I have a questiojn regarding upstream
<dholbach> txwikinger2: just ask :)
<persia> ScottK: It's more than MOTU.  There's ideas for a spec being bounced around.
<txwikinger2> Do I create unnessary work if I put a patch for the bug in lp and also send the patch to upstream?
<dholbach> txwikinger2: that depends on how reactive the debian maintainer is or the upstream author is and at which stage of the release cycle we are
<dholbach> txwikinger2: let's say we are 3 weeks away from the release and your patch fixes a critical crasher
<dholbach> in that case you apply it, upload it and forward it upstream
<dholbach> but in that case it's not worth to wait for an upstream update or a new release
<dholbach> does that make sense?
<txwikinger2> yes.
<txwikinger2> So at the moment I try to first get it applied upstream that it can be synced?
 * persia generally recommends uploads to Ubuntu anytime after DIF
<dholbach> yes, that makes sense for software that is released regularly
<txwikinger2> persia: When is DIF?
<dholbach> for example in GNOME land where you get a new release every two weeks it makes perfect sense to wait to get your patch rolled into the upstream release
<dholbach> txwikinger2: yesterday :)
<txwikinger2> SO we are after now, and we apply directly to ubuntu?
<persia> txwikinger2: Yesterday, but for things like GNOME or Open Office or X or the kernel, you'll do better to work with upstream, as Ubuntu tries not to have so much variation.
<txwikinger2> ok
<dholbach> so what seb128 does in the case of GNOME: he sets the bug to fix committed (as it's fixed upstream already)
<persia> For little edge packages in universe, an upload is usually easier, as there's not such close coordination with upstream.
<dholbach> and when he prepares the version update to ubuntu, he checks all 'fix committed' bugs and adds (LP: #123456) entries for all fixed bugs to the changelog
 * dholbach agrees with persia
<dholbach> it depends on the software and the upstream maintainer
<txwikinger2> ok.. I can work with that
<dholbach> great
<dholbach> anything else you found problematic on your way to MOTU? or anything that could have been easier?
<txwikinger2> dholbach: IS there any place that really needs some help atm or shoudl I knock myself out on the bitesizes?
 * persia recommends updates to Ubuntu-only packages
<mruiz> things are becoming easier
<dholbach> txwikinger2: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/TODO has a bunch of stuff to do
<dholbach> FTBFS problems
<dholbach> also mvo files a whole lot of upgrade-failed bugs
<dholbach> although I have to admit I forget which tag he uses for those
<dholbach> those upgrade bugs will be more important during the cycle
<dholbach> as we'll support upgrades from dapper to hardy this time
<mruiz> Where can I find information about .desktop files? Some packages include foo.desktop.in and foo.desktop... what is the difference?
<persia> mruiz: desktop.in is usually a .desktop pre-translation integration.
<dholbach> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/PackagingGuide/SupplementaryFiles has more information on .desktop files
<dholbach> mruiz: does that answer your question?
<txwikinger2> cool that answers the question I was gonna ask next :D
<dholbach> oh really? which question was that? :)
<txwikinger2> about menu icons
<mruiz> dholbach, persia : thanks...
<dholbach> ah ok
<dholbach> whenever you come across documentation and there's something that's missing or wrong, please let me know
<dholbach> I'm happy to help fixing it
<persia> txwikinger2: Actually, that data about icons is a little out of date, but at least minimally useful.
<txwikinger2> persia: well I wondered if icons are supposed to be part of the artwork
<mruiz> I'm looking for information about the Categories field. In a particular case, Ubuntu uses Categories=GNOME;Application;Game;ArcadeGame; and Debian: Categories=GNOME;Game;ArcadeGame;
<dholbach> txwikinger2: why? or what are you after with your question?
<persia> txwikinger2: Icons have places in both packages and themes.  Themes rarely have enough icons to cover all 25,000 packages, but packages should support theming for themes that do have support for those packages.
<txwikinger2> Well, I see a lot of bugs for missing icons in the Kubuntu menu for gnome apps
<txwikinger2> I wondered if they should be in the kubuntu artworks, or in the gnome app package
<dholbach> I would be much happier if .desktop files were sent upstream
<persia> mruiz: http://standards.freedesktop.org/menu-spec/latest/apa.html has the Categories list.  Use one main category, and as many Additional Categories as are appropriate.
<dholbach> because upstream integration of .desktop files is the only way to get them translated properly
<dholbach> and we wouldn't have to carry myriads of .desktop file patches :)
<persia> txwikinger2: The "missing icon in Kubuntu" issue is mostly due to not putting the icons in the ideal place.  This doesn't require a new icon, only moving it to the right directories.
<txwikinger2> ah ok
 * persia agrees with dholbach, but notes that app-install-data is built in part on the presence of .desktop files
<dholbach> right
<dholbach> still the right fix to me seems to be upstream :)
<dholbach> regarding the upgrade problems bugs:
<dholbach> <mvo_> dholbach: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DebuggingUpdateManager: feisty2gutsy
<dholbach>  dholbach: edgy2feisty etc
<dholbach> ^ mvo just answered
<persia> Actually, I think that's true for almost all of our non-packaging bugs.
 * dholbach nods
<dholbach> feisty to gutsy upgrade problems for example: https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bugs?field.tag=feisty2gutsy
 * dholbach should link them from MOTU/TODO
<dholbach> anything else on your mind?
<dholbach> if not, let's close the session for today - #ubuntu-motu is open 24/7 as is ubuntu-motu-mentors@lists.ubuntu.com :-)
<mruiz> dholbach, yes... about the version change!
<dholbach> mruiz: ah ok... which version change? mailping?
<mruiz> dholbach, yes. Do I have to rename the directory too?
<persia> mruiz: Yes.
<dholbach> debuild should take care of that for you
<mruiz> :-)
<mruiz> anyway... we can continue in #ubuntu-motu
<dholbach> ok great
 * dholbach will take the dog for a walk
<mruiz> thanks guys, you rock!
<dholbach> thanks for great questions and a great session
<dholbach> mruiz++ :)
<txwikinger2> thanks dholbach
<mruiz> bye guys
<dholbach> bye
<effie_jayx> no motu today?
<Hobbsee> effie_jayx: you're late.
<effie_jayx> Hobbsee,  ohhhhhhh
<effie_jayx> timezone change in my country
<effie_jayx> darn
<mruiz> buuu effie_jayx !
<effie_jayx> mruiz,  I must face mergers alon
<mruiz> alone
<effie_jayx> mruiz,  right
<mruiz> effie_jayx, don't be shy... #ubuntu-motu is waiting for us ;-)
<effie_jayx> mruiz,  I shall head into it
<bazhang> is motu for mere mortals as well? :}
<effie_jayx> bazhang,  yeah
<effie_jayx> not really difficult
<effie_jayx> you need to learn some tools
<bazhang> effie_jayx: cool, thanks :}
<effie_jayx> but not nuclear science
<Hobbsee> we eat people occasionally, though
<bazhang> haha
<Hobbsee> if we're hungry
<bazhang> I'll wait until after lunch then
<effie_jayx> Hobbsee,  lol
<Hobbsee> :)
#ubuntu-classroom 2008-12-09
<angeleyes> it say  (to add an account i first have ti install a backendens ).wat is a backend
<angeleyes> i want to add an account to empathy but it tell me to install a backend
<Mamarok> angeleyes: for support questions, go to #ubuntu
<DasEi> did anything happened on 3rd of december ? my inet was down
#ubuntu-classroom 2008-12-10
<Saz> hii there
<Saz>   well...i started working at computer store - in Africa. My boss wants to move from pirated XP/Vista to Ubuntu so that he doesnt get into trouble. The general clientele are more microsoft familiar. What i need help with is how to promote ubuntu over XP/Vista & aid them in understanding how ubuntu works without confusing them. Furthemore, how to get additional applcaitions which will spice up their experience with ubuntu
#ubuntu-classroom 2008-12-12
<hishamnajam> Any body home??
<hishamnajam> Congrat Nythain
<Ultimus>  have I got this right: you don't need Firestarter because iptables already works in the background. Firestarter is kind of a display for the iptables?
<DasEi> Ultimus: firestarter is a grafical util to configure iptables, the build-in fw is ufw
<DasEi> also fstarter offers some more options, like internet-connection sharing
<Ultimus> but does iptables do anything if you dont install firestarter
<DasEi> not unless u specifify sth in it's config
<Ultimus> ok
<DasEi> if you want a very basic fw, in terminal do : sudo ufw enable
<Ultimus> but I already have firestarter, although I havent changed any config since I installed it, does it mean a could rather be without it
<DasEi> firestarter configures iptables, too and is more xetendend then ufw
<Ultimus> you mean by itself
<et3> I need to learn some packaging techniques
<jpds> !packaging | et3
<ubot5> et3: The packaging guide is at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/PackagingGuide - See https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopment/NewPackages for information on getting a package integrated into Ubuntu - Other developer resources are at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopment - See also !backports
<jpds> et3: And try #ubuntu-motu instead.
<et3> jpds:  thank you
#ubuntu-classroom 2008-12-13
<PrivateVoid> pleia2 I may have our first 'Question and Answer session' ready
<PrivateVoid> you here so we can talk details
<pleia2> sure
<PrivateVoid> hey pleia2
<pleia2> 'lo :)
<PrivateVoid> We would be looking at a weekend in January
<PrivateVoid> there would be two people involved from the BT doing a Q&A on how to use sudo
<pleia2> cool
<PrivateVoid> do you have a forum account I could use to send you details?
<pleia2> my forum name?
<pleia2> elizabeth
<PrivateVoid> cool
<PrivateVoid> when we get things finalized I will get the details to you...
<PrivateVoid> is the classroom booked for any weekends currently?
<pleia2> can you drop me an email when they are formalized (lyz@ubuntu.com)? I check forums often enough but I don't always pay attention to messages
 * pleia2 isn't much of a forums person
<pleia2> not at the moment, no
<pleia2> so you can pick whichever you want :)
<PrivateVoid> email then... adding it to my addy now
<PrivateVoid> pleia2, will the Americas borad meet in December?
<PrivateVoid> there is still no date...
<pleia2> no date set yet, but that reminds me to drop a note to the list...
<PrivateVoid> k
<PrivateVoid> pleia2, they want the 3rd weekend... and will let you know which day/time in a little bit...
<PrivateVoid> ok?
<PrivateVoid> pleia2, things are moving fast -- MichaelGodawski PrivateVoid 17/1 1800GMT
<PrivateVoid> I will have Michael do a write up for it and email it to you
<pleia2> cool :D
<PrivateVoid> pleia2, http://fridge.ubuntu.com/node/1768
<pleia2> cool :)
 * pleia2 will write up some info to the -classroom list
<PrivateVoid> thanks pleia2
<PrivateVoid> I hope getting the first few of these off the ground will bring in some more people as well
 * pleia2 nods
<MichaelGodawski> hey pleia2 thx for giving as room for the class :)
<pleia2> hey Michael, quite welcome! glad to have you guys :)
#ubuntu-classroom 2008-12-14
* pleia2 changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Ubuntu Classroom || https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Classroom || https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-classroom || Q&A Session on sudo & root, presented by the Beginners Team Education Focus Group: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BeginnersTeam/FocusGroups/Education/Events/01172009
* pleia2 changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Ubuntu Classroom || https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Classroom || https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-classroom || Upcoming Event: Jan 17 @ 1800 UTC: Q&A Session on sudo & root, presented by the Beginners Team Education Focus Group: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BeginnersTeam/FocusGroups/Education/Events/01172009
<xalejo0917> hi
<xalejo0917> today only learning about irc
#ubuntu-classroom 2009-12-07
<qwebirc63294> hello
<qwebirc63294> I need help with the ubuntu bootloader
<qwebirc63294> ?
<qwebirc63294> I tried everything
<qwebirc63294> I chek all the forums
<qwebirc63294> tried with the commands and nothing
<qwebirc63294> the super grub disk
<qwebirc63294> I have to reinstall xp and them ubuntu was gonne
<qwebirc63294> pleaseee some body helpme
<dbist> when you reinstall xp, you wipe ubuntu
<qwebirc63294> yes
<dbist> boot into live ubuntu cd
<qwebirc63294>  I did
<dbist> see if ubuntu partition is there
<qwebirc63294> I did
<dbist> try to reinstall grub
<qwebirc63294> and them i tried with find/boot/grub/stage1
<dbist> it should take care of your problem
<qwebirc63294> I did sudo apt-get install grub
<dbist> xp rewrote the master boot record
<qwebirc63294> yes
<dbist> search how to reinstall mbr or grub
<qwebirc63294> I did
<dbist> no not like that
<dbist> with live cd go to rescue i think
<qwebirc63294> and none of those command are the one I nned
<qwebirc63294> need
<dbist> option f4 i think on live cd
<dbist> google how to reinstall grub
<dbist> gotta go sorry
<qwebirc63294> thanks
<qwebirc63294> there is any way i can get the files i had on the ubuntu partition
<qwebirc63294> there is any admin here?
<jmarsden> qwebirc63294: This is #ubuntu-classroom.  There is no class now.  For support for Ubuntu, /join #ubuntu and ask there.
#ubuntu-classroom 2009-12-09
<marco_polo> recording some video, out here
<johndoe124> \quit
<jennie> Hello
<jennie> hi
<malev> hi
<jmarsden> This is #ubuntu-classroom.  There is no class now.  For support for Ubuntu, /join #ubuntu and ask there.
<kekehuoshan> I missed the last session, is there any place hold a record?
<kekehuoshan> #ubuntu-classroom-chat
<jmarsden> kekehuoshan: Yes, try typing /topic I think the place where logs are kept is listed there.
<jmarsden> kekehuoshan: well, maybe not.  Here is an URL: http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/
<kekehuoshan> jmarsden: Thank you, I got the byobu session log here:https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/openweekKarmic/Byobu
<jmarsden> kekehuoshan: You're welcome, glad you found what you needed.  The irclogs.ubuntu.com location is more generic, if you know the date/time you can find all logged ubuntu-related channels that way.
<kekehuoshan> jmarsden: irclogs.ubuntu.com has nice format :)
<jmarsden> Yes, the coloring by nick is nice.
<Beefcakes> Hi I have 9.10 installed in my laptop... I just restarted the system after adding a file in /etc/conf/rules.d .. now it doesn't boot. It just loads the 9.10 logo, then the Ubuntu loading screen then just an empty blank screen with the loading mouse cursor which is movable..
#ubuntu-classroom 2009-12-10
<vivek558> date -u
#ubuntu-classroom 2009-12-11
<mavl4219> date -u
#ubuntu-classroom 2009-12-12
<qwebirc71795> Hi all.
<qwebirc71795> Someone can indicate me a site that explains how to package mono applications?
<qwebirc71795> sorry my poor english
#ubuntu-classroom 2009-12-13
<daredevilthere> Hey all
<daredevilthere> i need help about programming in ubuntu
<daredevilthere> what all 77 people doing here
<joaopinto> daredevilthere, waiting for the next classroom event, this channel is not for support :)
<daredevilthere> joaopinto: then when will next class begin?
<daredevilthere> today?
<joaopinto> daredevilthere, read the topic
<daredevilthere> kkk
#ubuntu-classroom 2010-12-13
<kaushal> hi
<kaushal> Any event going on ?
<pleia2> kaushal: not right now, the next one is on Wednesday, check out http://is.gd/8rtIi for the schedule
<kaushal> pleia2: so do i need to be online here ?
<kaushal> I am here for the first time
<kaushal> How do i make use of it
<pleia2> kaushal: yes, the instructor will give the session in this channel
<pleia2> kaushal: you'll also want to join #ubuntu-classroom-chat so you can ask questions and talk with other attendees
<kaushal> pleia2: ok
<kaushal> pleia2: 5pm UK time ?
<pleia2> kaushal: yes
<kaushal> ok
<kaushal> pleia2: Thanks
<pleia2> sure :)
<kaushal> I am from India
#ubuntu-classroom 2010-12-14
<c2tarun> There was a bug triaging class today at 5pm UTC. is it shifted to tomorrow??
<nhandler> c2tarun: Wednesday at 17:00 UTC (http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/fixedtime.html?month=12&day=15&year=2010&hour=17&min=0&sec=0&p1=0)
<c2tarun> nhandler: thanks :)
#ubuntu-classroom 2010-12-15
<qwebirc92152> .
<Ayrton> today is the class about bug triage?
<devildante> Ayrton: yes
<devildante> Ayrton: please chat in #ubuntu-classroom-chat instead ;)
<Ayrton> sorry, I forget about that
<devildante> Ayrton: np ;)
<hggdh> devildante: I will be around, if needed
<devildante> hggdh: thanks :)
<hggdh> devildante: my pleasure, and thank you for the class
<devildante> heh
* ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to the Ubuntu Classroom - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Classroom || Support in #ubuntu || Upcoming Schedule: http://is.gd/8rtIi || Questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat || Current Session: Basics of Bug Triaging - Instructors: devildante
<ClassBot> Logs for this session will be available at http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2010/12/15/%23ubuntu-classroom.html following the conclusion of the session.
<devildante> Hello everyone :)
<c2tarun> hello o/
<devildante> I am Mohamed Amine IL Idrissi, and I will be your instructor for this session
<devildante> we'll talk about how we can help the Ubuntu community by triaging bugs
<devildante> okay let's begin
<devildante> First of all, what's bug triaging?
<devildante> The word may sound mysterious to you, but it's simple
<devildante> bug triaging means "preparing" a bug and making it ready for developers to fix it
<devildante> bug triaging requires no programming experience
<devildante> so it's a good way to delve into the Ubuntu community :)
<devildante> Open source/FOSS projects use various bug trackers
<devildante> Ubuntu uses Launchpad, a Canonical-developed platform
<devildante> that's what we will use to triage bugs
<devildante> any questions?
<c2tarun> what are bug trackers?
<devildante> c2tarun: ah yes, thanks for bringing this
<devildante> c2tarun: in a nutshell, bug trackers are places where you can report bugs, aka bring them to the attention of the developers
<devildante> c2tarun: for example, bugzilla is a bug tracker that is used by GNOME, Wine, etc...
<c2tarun> ok
<devildante> let's continue then
<devildante> like I said, Ubuntu uses Launchpad
<devildante> Launchpad provides a bug tracker that is simple to use
<devildante> but you may get a little confused
<devildante> so let's check a bug's life cycle
<devildante> first, the user reports a bug
<devildante> it can be done either via the "ubuntu-bug" command, or manually
<devildante> it's described here: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/ReportingBugs
<devildante> bug triagers, the persons who do the job of triaging, look at the bug then
<devildante> What's the nature of the bug? Is it well described? Can it be reproduced? and many other questions fly in the head of the triager
<devildante> If he sees that the bug has incomplete information, he marks it as Incomplete
<devildante> and that's where we introduces Statuses
<devildante> Statuses are a way to describe a bug: is it reproducible, etc...
<devildante> All newly reported bugs are marked initially as New
<devildante> Bugs with incomplete information are marked as Incomplete
<c2tarun> devildante: how can we come to know that the information provided is sufficient for developer?
<devildante> c2tarun: it depends
<devildante> c2tarun: if you report your bug via "ubuntu-bug", additional system information is added to it
<devildante> c2tarun: the bug must also be reproducible by someone else than the reporter
<c2tarun> ok
<devildante> for an example of an incomplete bug, see: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/imagination/+bug/627921
<ubot2> Launchpad bug 627921 in imagination (Ubuntu) "package imagination-common 2.1-1ubuntu1 failed to install/upgrade: intentando sobreescribir Â«/usr/share/doc/imagination/html/en/images/imagination_window.pngÂ», que estÃ¡ tambiÃ©n en el paquete imagination 0:2.1-1 (affects: 3) (dups: 2) (heat: 35)" [Undecided,Incomplete]
<devildante> You see here that the bug is marked as Incomplete because the reporter upgraded a package from a version that was never in Ubuntu
<devildante> The triager asks him to fill in more details about that, and then marks the bug as Incomplete
<devildante> There are statuses other than New and Incomplete
<devildante> "Confirmed" means that the bug was able to be reproduced by someone other than the reporter of the bug
<devildante> example: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/evince/+bug/690650
<ubot2> Launchpad bug 690650 in evince (Ubuntu) "Evince does not remember settings (affects: 1) (heat: 6)" [Undecided,Confirmed]
<devildante> we see here that the triager has been able to reproduce the bug
<devildante> thus, he marked it as Confirmed
<devildante> any questions until now?
<ElPasmo> Anyone can change the status to confirmed or only trusted members?
<devildante> Elpasmo: anyone
<c2tarun> most of the times there are no directions to reproduce the bug? how can we reproduce then?
<devildante> Statuses that are reserved to "trusted members" (the Ubuntu Bug Control team) are Triaged and Won't Fix
<devildante> c2tarun: if we can't reproduce the bug, we mark the bug as "Incomplete" and kindly ask the reporter to include steps to reproduce the bug
<c2tarun> asking reporter means just requesting in comments?
<devildante> yes
<c2tarun> OK
<ClassBot> wolffu asked: So if we are unable to reproduce the bug on our system, is there any reason to continue triaging?
<devildante> wolffu: we can't continue to triage a bug if we can't reproduce it
<devildante> wolffu: like I said, mark the bug as Incomplete and ask the reported to include steps
<devildante> okay let's continue
<devildante> "Triaged" means the bug has been, well, triaged :p
<devildante> it is then ready for a developer to fix
<devildante> not anybody can mark a bug as Triaged
<devildante> only Ubuntu Bug Control members
<devildante> if you see that a bug has complete information, ask at #ubuntu-bugs on IRC to triage the bug
<devildante> they are very kind :)
<devildante> but don't forget
<devildante> the bug must be complete
<devildante> that includes deciding which importance the bug will get
<devildante> Importance is how much the bug is "dangerous" or "annoying"
<devildante> it's better explained here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Bugs/Importance
<devildante> example here: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/software-center/+bug/685473
<ubot2> Launchpad bug 685473 in software-center (Ubuntu) "Multiple screenshots in software description (affects: 2) (heat: 312)" [Wishlist,Confirmed]
<devildante> the bug has been confirmed and marked as wishlist
<devildante> because it defines a feature request
<devildante> small feature requests are generally accepted in Launchpad
<devildante> but for big features, it's better to put it in http://brainstorm.ubuntu.com
<devildante> any questions up until now?
<devildante> okay let's continue
<devildante> one of the other criteria for a bug to be triaged is to be reported upstream
<devildante> what is upstream, you say? it is the projects that are above us, that we incorporate into the distribution
<devildante> downstream is the opposite of that
<devildante> for example, GNOME is upstream of all the gnome packages in Ubuntu
<devildante> and we are downstream of GNOME
<devildante> an example of an upstream reported bug: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/tasque/+bug/550990
<ubot2> Launchpad bug 550990 in tasque (Ubuntu) (and 1 other project) "Remember The Milk tasks should be synchronized for offline access (affects: 5) (heat: 24)" [Undecided,Triaged]
<devildante> as you see, there is now a second line above the ubuntu package line
<devildante> it represents the upstream bug
<devildante> there is a link in that line leading to the upstream bug
<c2tarun> what do you mean by upstream bug?
<devildante> c2tarun: upstream bug means it has been reported as a bug in the upstream bug tracker
<c2tarun> ok
<devildante> to link a bug to an upstream one, you first have to check if it exists in the upstream bug tracker
<devildante> if not, report a new one there, then link it back to upstream
<devildante> instructions for linking bugs to GNOME ones: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Bugs/Upstream/GNOME
<devildante> questions? we still have time
<ClassBot> callaghan asked: How do Triagers get informed of newly submitted bugs?
<devildante> callaghan: very good question
<devildante> callaghan: you can check untriaged bugs here: http://goo.gl/25EjA
<devildante> you can also check them via an atom feed: http://feeds.launchpad.net/ubuntu/latest-bugs.atom
<devildante> or you can join the #ubuntu-bugs-announce channel on IRC
<devildante> finally, you can also subscribe to this mailing list: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
<c2tarun> how can we make into ubuntu bug control team?
<devildante> attention, it's very high volume
<devildante> c2tarun: triage bugs, triage bugs, and triage more bugs ;)
<c2tarun> :)
<devildante> c2tarun: when you're ready, follow instructions at https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-bugcontrol/ to apply
<devildante> any other questions?
<ClassBot> There are 10 minutes remaining in the current session.
<devildante> okay, let's finish this
<c2tarun> on https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-bugcontrol/ its mentioned about an application, what is it?
<devildante> c2tarun: it means that you should present yourself and your skills
<devildante> c2tarun: please follow instructions at: http://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuBugControl
<ClassBot> callaghan asked: Do you need to subscribe yourself to a bug before triaging it?
<devildante> callaghan: no, not required
<callaghan> So I get updates on a bug as soon as I change something there?
<devildante> callaghan: also no
<devildante> callaghan: you need to be subscribed for that
<callaghan> ok, thank you :)
<devildante> callaghan: but to triage a bug, it's not required
<devildante> callaghan: but it's preferred
<devildante> callaghan: np ;)
<devildante> okay, let's put some finishing words :p
<devildante> what you just saw are the basics
<devildante> bug triaging can be more complex than that
<ClassBot> There are 5 minutes remaining in the current session.
<devildante> for example: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bug/11334
<ubot2> Launchpad bug 11334 in ubuntu (and 16 other projects) "MASTER Copy-Paste doesn't work if the source is closed before the paste (affects: 262) (dups: 26) (heat: 1245)" [Wishlist,Confirmed]
<ClassBot> ElPasmo asked: What happens if there is some ways differents for solving a bug. Who decides? Example: bug 689655
<ubot2> Launchpad bug 689655 in main-menu (Ubuntu) (and 2 other projects) "application > accessories > take screenshot (should be take a screenshot) (affects: 2) (heat: 14)" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/689655
<devildante> ElPasmo: we just decide of the appropriate way in the comments ;)
<devildante> any other questions? we are close from the end of the session
<ClassBot> Logs for this session will be available at http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2010/12/15/%23ubuntu-classroom.html
* ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to the Ubuntu Classroom - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Classroom || Support in #ubuntu || Upcoming Schedule: http://is.gd/8rtIi || Questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat ||
<devildante> okay thanks everyone, and bye :)
<c2tarun> Thanks :)
<callaghan> thx, bye
<devildante> callaghan: np
<devildante> c2tarun: np too :)
<ElPasmo> Thanks devildante :)
<devildante> ElPasmo: np :)
<qwebirc3958> Woops. I missed class didn't I?
<UndiFineD> qwebirc3958, go get a note at the rectors office :P
<qwebirc3958> Haha. Where are the logs for this channel kept, so I can see what I missed?
<qwebirc3958> Nevermind.
<qwebirc3958> Found em.
<qwebirc3958> Informative session. Cya all.
#ubuntu-classroom 2010-12-18
<slashedice> hi all
#ubuntu-classroom 2011-12-13
<linuxe> hello eeryone
#ubuntu-classroom 2011-12-14
<raghu> hi
#ubuntu-classroom 2011-12-15
<prashant> hi
#ubuntu-classroom 2012-12-11
<millerthegorilla> does anyone know if I should be able in a limited user account (w/out admin privileges) be able to use the process /bin/kill ?  right now its file permissions are 0755 so anyone can execute it.  The same goes for all of the other /bin commands
<IdleOne> millerthegorilla: #ubuntu is the support channel, this channel is used for scheduled IRC classes.
<millerthegorilla> srry.  Do you know the channel name of ubuntu support?
<millerthegorilla> thats cool found it.  Thanks
#ubuntu-classroom 2013-12-11
<Dubito_> hi all
<Dubito_> i m new and i search how work learnid and how to find classroom for learn to work on linux
<Dubito_> (sorry for my bad english i m french)
<Dubito_> wooohoo ? :@)
<Dubito_> i search a mentor to learn unix linux and network security ? where i can find this ?
<Dubito_> omg i do a monologue !:)
<Dubito_> i ll be kill for spamming !!!
<Dubito_> :)
<Dubito_> no one want to speak with me ?
<Dubito_> allo allo allo?
<Dubito_> hum ... i don t want to do a sleeping room ...i want a learning classroom ... good luck all !
#ubuntu-classroom 2015-12-10
<rssl> hello
