#ubuntu-accessibility 2011-03-21
<JackyAlcine> o/
<UndiFineD> hey Pendulum you're about ? I was thinking we could aim for a browser user agent specification telling websites certain types of accessibility are requested
<Pendulum> UndiFineD: what do you mean?
<UndiFineD> well you get some control over the user agent version
<Pendulum> 1) I'm not sure that would be an ubuntu thing. Sounds like something you'd want as a plug-in for browsers or something
<UndiFineD> and it says, give me braille texts
<Pendulum> right, but do you mean in terms of notifying sites where there is missing accessibility?
<UndiFineD> no, all
<UndiFineD> a sites css could be adjusted to the requested accessibility demands
<AlanBell> so like sites give you the mobile version if you browse from a phone
<UndiFineD> yes
<AlanBell> I think Pendulum is right, not so much an Ubuntu thing
<AlanBell> probably a W3C thing
<UndiFineD> hmmm
<Pendulum> it'd need a pretty major development change in web development, I think
<charlie-tca> new installer colors for the alternate cd and server cd
<charlie-tca> aubergine and light orange
<charlie-tca> and, yes, the orange on white is hard to read
<AlanBell> UndiFineD: http://www.w3.org/TR/WAI-USERAGENT/
<UndiFineD> hah
<UndiFineD> thanks
<UndiFineD> I'll have a read
<AlanBell> that is talking about "user agents" as the browser rather than specifically the user agent http header string
<AlanBell> UndiFineD: the best way for sites to offer raw content that can be consumed in accessible ways is to have good rss feeds
<AlanBell> for sites that are about reading content that is
<UndiFineD> makes sense
<charlie-tca> Pendulum: screenshot of new installer on alternate cd - http://imagebin.org/144143
<Pendulum> ugh
<AlanBell> the aubergine isn't that nice
<Pendulum> I'm happy to confirm a bug if you file one about it being difficult to read (tbh, I find the aubrigine at that shade hard to read on the white as much as the orange & white is)
<charlie-tca> hm, and this is from the "design team"again
<AlanBell> I don't think they have many colours to choose from at that stage of the installer
<AlanBell> to be fair, the body text is black on light grey, the stuff that is harder to read is more decorative
<Pendulum> yeah
<AlanBell> and the <continue> is the highlighted option, you can move left and right to read it
<charlie-tca> they changed the pallette to get these colors, can't they remember that accessibility is supposed to be important?
<charlie-tca> If they can decide these are good pallette colors, they should be able to actually include colors that work
<AlanBell> the orange is a lot better than yellow on white
<charlie-tca> they have 16 colors to use, and the design team decided these colors were better then the old pallette
<AlanBell> if they made it bold it would probably work better (if they can do bold there)
<charlie-tca> The red and blue they had before worked great
<charlie-tca> moving the highlight does not make the rest of the text any easier to read
<AlanBell> which bit is hard to read?
<AlanBell> just "[!!] Finish the installation"?
<Pendulum> and 'Installations complete'
<Pendulum> *Installation
<Pendulum> the black is the only okay bit for me
 * AlanBell tries with the colourblindness filters
<charlie-tca> actually, I find the orange on white/grey, aubergine on white/grey, and black on the white/grey background all difficult to read
<AlanBell> bother, wrong VM
<AlanBell> I will try later
<AlanBell> tried it
<AlanBell> for deuteranopia and protanopia the colours seem to be OK, neither of them disappears or dramatically fades
<charlie-tca> That doesn't make them okay for all of us
<AlanBell> I know
<charlie-tca> Are you on the design team, they use these same type arguments to not fix anything
<AlanBell> no, I am not
<AlanBell> I was hoping to be able to help put together a good bug report with objective evidence
<charlie-tca> every argument in the bug report that says "it does not affect" seems to give the design team more reason to not fix things
<charlie-tca> bug 739445
<ubot2> Launchpad bug 739445 in debian-installer "Debian-installer uses colors that are not accessible" [High,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/739445
<AlanBell> yes, but I didn't say it in the bug report!
<AlanBell> I was hoping that this was going to be a really clear case that colour blind people would simply not be able to see some of the text, which would give me an opportunity to demonstrate to the design team that they should be testing with the filters as a generally useful tool
<AlanBell> as it is I will wait for a better opportunity to arise
<Nafai> good morning all
<AlanBell> hi Nafai 
<Pendulum> hi Nafai 
<Nafai> I really should start getting involved here, even if for selfish reasons :)
<charlie-tca> Thanks. I hope we can actually get a better combination for all of us.
<Pendulum> Nafai: I just realised who you are o/
<Pendulum> I think we met in Belgium
<Nafai> Yeah
<Nafai> I kind of dropped off the grid for a while after that, been a rough year
<Pendulum> *nods*
<Nafai> Got another little wake up call a few weeks ago from my eye doctor when I saw how bad my retinitis pigmentosa is getting
<Pendulum> :(
<Nafai> Yeah, unfortunately, in a decade or so I could be totally blind
<Nafai> But at least I have that time to code and get stuff in place that I won't be forced to used Windows :)
<Pendulum> :)
<Pendulum> JackyAlcine: are you around?
<JackyAlcine> Define 'around' :)
<JackyAlcine> What's up?
<Pendulum> can I PM you for a sec? (nothing bad, I promise :) )
<JackyAlcine> Lol, suree
<charlie-tca> progress on the installer bug! We will now have a setting under F5 to choose better colors for visually disabled installs
<Pendulum> \o/
<charlie-tca> me too
<charlie-tca> every little bit helps, huh?
<charlie-tca> Pendulum: you following the ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list at all?
<charlie-tca> there is a user with Onboard trying to use Unity
<charlie-tca> and getting no help from the developers
<charlie-tca> Might need to poke jono or jcastro about this one, it is his second time asking questions about accessibility and unity, and he doesn't get anwsers
<charlie-tca> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel-discuss/2011-March/012496.html
<Pendulum> what's worse about his not getting answers is that he's the mousetweaks devel :-/
<charlie-tca> ooops
<charlie-tca> I did try to give an answer to this question, but it is frustrating to see him ignored again
<Pendulum> yeah
<charlie-tca> from an accessible point, Unity really falls down, even if the charts don't reflect that
<Pendulum> yeah
<Pendulum> from my call with jono last week it sounds like it was one of those things where no one realised how much work it was until they were in the middle of it
<Pendulum> part of me wants to write something about 'accessibility as 2nd class citizen... again', but I don't want to discount all the good work that has been done
<charlie-tca> but they keep praising themselves for how great it works for "everyone"
<maco> ie, you're not people
<maco> fuuuuuun
<Pendulum> tbh, it doesn't even work for 'everyone' in the general sense
<charlie-tca> Maybe if they had made Ubuntu accessible to start with, instead of pretending, it would have worked better
<Pendulum> well, I think a lot of regressions have shown up
<Pendulum> I really remember accessibility in Ubuntu being loads easier in 2007 when I started using it
<charlie-tca> We just have to keep trying then, I guess. Maybe we did not push hard enough for a while to make sure things were happening
<Riddell> revu and testing needed http://revu.ubuntuwire.com/p/qt-at-spi
<Pendulum> Riddell: can you send an e-mail to the accessibility mailing list as well?
<charlie-tca> Okay, I am going pull some weeds, I think the ground is thawed today.
<Pendulum> charlie-tca: lucky you. We got an inch of snow earlier today :-/
<charlie-tca> We haven't had any for at least two days already :-)
<Pendulum> we hadn't had any for a week
<Pendulum> and it even got up to the upper 60s on friday
<Pendulum> but now I can't see the grass again :(
<charlie-tca> stayed in the 40's last night too
<charlie-tca> Yeah, gotta try to pull weeds before it snows again 
<Riddell> Pendulum: do I need to be subscribed?
<Pendulum> Riddell: I don't think so, but I"m not 100% sure
<pleia2> is onboard an easily selectable option for gdm yet?
<pleia2> I was working on a tablet last week and the guy just ended up setting up auto-login instead of bothering :\
<Pendulum> pleia2: it's almost impossible to use on Unity
<Pendulum> pretty much what's most likely to happen is accessible installs for Natty will end up going back to stock GNOME
<Pendulum> rather than even trying to load Unity
<pleia2> with Unity's alleged aim at touchscreen devices too I think this is a major problem beyond accessibility
<Pendulum> yep
<AlanBell> but unity hasn't started at the GDM screen
<pleia2> as it is now in 10.10 when you install onboard it doesn't even show up in the gnome menu, I had to use the menu editor to enable the section of the menu, it was awful
<Pendulum> pleia2: yep
<Pendulum> we can count that among the regressions I've noticed since I started using Ubuntu
<pleia2> :(
<Pendulum> I believe the arguement was cleaning up clutter
<Pendulum> it used to be a lot easier to configure screen magnification and text-to-speech in a GUI as well
<pleia2> yeah, it's tossed in a whole different section of the gnome menu which isn't enabled by default
<Pendulum> (I still don't know how to configure screen magnification in a GUI way if you don't have Compiz-mag)
<Pendulum> I'm not sure if that change was a GNOME one or an ubuntu one
<maco> Riddell: doh. im really failing at packaging the things i say im going to package this cycle, huh? :(
<pleia2> (why it's not just in the regular accessories portion of the menu confounds me)
<Riddell> maco: time for a revu!
<maco> Riddell: when i get home from the diddleedee music
 * maco makes note to self
<Pendulum> pleia2: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/onboard/+bug/275450
<ubot2> Launchpad bug 275450 in onboard "menu items missing on fresh install of Ubuntu" [High,Triaged]
<Riddell> maco: why are you IRCing from diddly dee music?
<maco> Riddell: i'm not. i'm heading there in a half hour though
<maco> and my natty machine is at home (and i am not)
<pleia2> Pendulum: thanks :)
<Pendulum> pleia2: any chance you'd be interested in blogging about the issues regarding onBoard/tablets/etc.?
<Pendulum> (just to get another face out there because I swear people are going to start turning off when they notice it's me talking about accessibility against ;-) )
<pleia2> Pendulum: actually, yes, let me get some notes together and drop an email to the guy whose tablet I worked on to see if he has any additions
<pleia2> lol
<Pendulum> *again
<Pendulum> it's what happens about physical world access issues so I kinda expect it to happen online as well
 * maco would like to note that KMag seems to work pretty well
<maco> Riddell:  do we install KMag by default?
<Pendulum> my memory is that gnome-mag used to work really well. I just haven't figured out how to use it without the command line these days
<pleia2> Pendulum: this bug report is fascinating, I understand the progression now
<Pendulum> yeah. I came across it a couple weeks ago
<pleia2> and hugs to charlie-tca for all his great replies on it :)
<Riddell> maco: apt-cache show kmag | grep Task   says we do
<maco> Riddell: good
<AlanBell> Pendulum: orca has magnification but it is *terrible* on my high res screen, it might work better with a smaller number of pixels to throw about
<AlanBell> the clever thing it does is text cursor position tracking
<AlanBell> in gtk text fields at least, and have seen how it does that
<maco> i wonder if i could use the computer without glasses if i used kmag... will need to experiment
<AlanBell> I think the same process can be hacked into the compiz zoom plugin to give that text cursor following ability too, but that is in C, which is too hard for my little brain to cope with
<hajour> wauw very much to read back
<hajour> there seams to be some problems whit Unity in maverick
<hajour> the person who told me that is now re-logging i have told to come here to tell it .maybe 1 of you know a solution or where he can fill in a bug.or what is causing it
<hajour> AlanBell, charlie-tca  Pendulum pleia2 
<hajour> see above
<charlie-tca> hajour: Unity is not accessible. That person should be using gnome instead
<hajour> i don't know who of you know something about this
<charlie-tca> Unity was not default in Maverick
<AlanBell> hajour: what is the problem they are experiencing
<hajour> so thats why i called different names
<AlanBell> I am using unity in Maverick
<hajour> i have asked to come to accessibility
<hajour> to tell you
<MrChrisDruif> Hai everyone, hajour drags me all around :P
<AlanBell> hi MrChrisDruif 
<MrChrisDruif> No offense ofc hajour
<MrChrisDruif> How's it going AlanBell?
<hajour> :)
<hajour> now you can tell them what issues there are MrChrisDruif 
<MrChrisDruif> Well, I had some custom shortcuts (Like <Super>1 for going to desktop 1) which didn't work anymore...
<MrChrisDruif> Also the unity in maverick somehow also disabled all my window effects etc...
<AlanBell> yes, unity in maverick uses mutter rather than compiz so you won't get window effects
<AlanBell> one reason they rewrote it for Natty
<MrChrisDruif> That's what I thought
<AlanBell> if you hold the super key it shows the shortcuts that it grabs for the dock icons
<MrChrisDruif> <Super>e was for expo, which obviously didn't work anymore
<AlanBell> yeah, that is a compiz shortcut
<AlanBell> works on Natty
<MrChrisDruif> Yeah, if you hold super you can go to the apps running on the side
<hajour> so problem solved?:)
<MrChrisDruif> Well, like I said, maverick's unity != natty's unity :P
<hajour> ok :)
<MrChrisDruif> Is it possible to install natty's unity on maverick?
<AlanBell> nope
<AlanBell> they had plans to do that but there wasn't enough compiz to make it run
<MrChrisDruif> That's a shame
<hajour> i wanted to  say i don't know or it is ubuntu part but the abrowser dos not work good
<hajour> if you switch to a other page whit many pics on it go really slowly
<hajour> and you get screen freeze or grey squires
<charlie-tca> maco: might want to look into bug 681412 also for Onboard
<ubot2> Launchpad bug 681412 in at-spi "Can not enter password for Administrative tasks using Onboard Keyboard" [Medium,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/681412
<hajour>  i go read my mail.if someone want to speak me or need me or what ever do not forget to call my name in line then ok :)
<charlie-tca> for those tracking bugs about accessibility in Unity - bug 739812
<ubot2> Launchpad bug 739812 in unity "Must use hardware keyboard to perform search for applications in Unity" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/739812
<Pendulum> charlie-tca: feel free to subscribe me to any bugs like that
<charlie-tca> okay
<charlie-tca> I lost the old one for that, so I had to file a new bug
<Pendulum> (yes, I did just say I want more bug mail ;-) )
<charlie-tca> I get enough for three or four people, myself
#ubuntu-accessibility 2011-03-22
<hajour> till tomorrow all
<hajour> charlie-tca,  have you time for pm i am so angry
<Pendulum> Riddell: when you tried Orca in Natty were you using Unity?
<Pendulum> (on Gnome, I mean)
<Riddell> Pendulum: no
<Pendulum> hmm... okay
<Pendulum> (I"m trying to think if I know anyone who has tested Orca in Natty on non-Unity. I may have to go check that now)
<hajour> Pendulum, i dont work now official i promised not to work now you see.but if it is not a to heavy program i would gladly want to help testeing it
<hajour> testing
<apinheiro> Pendulum, about unity and orca, if you are using at-spi
<apinheiro> today I applied the solution to this bug
<apinheiro> https://bugs.launchpad.net/unity/+bug/739689
<ubot2> Launchpad bug 739689 in unity "[a11y] Launcher a11y support works with at-spi2 but not with at-spi" [Undecided,Fix committed]
<apinheiro> so I guess that it is not included in any package
<apinheiro> anyway, right now
<apinheiro> only the launcher and the panel has a testable orca support
<apinheiro> but I would appreciate any feedback
<Pendulum> charlie-tca: ^^
<charlie-tca> looking at it
<Pendulum> apinheiro: thanks for the heads up :)
<apinheiro> Pendulum, thanks to take care of it
<charlie-tca> I don't see anything to be done there, just one more bug against unity for us
<apinheiro> one of the thing we were worried what about testing from other people
<charlie-tca> Yes, we need to know what is broken, but that one already says it has a fix 
<charlie-tca> I think TheMuso has the right idea, forcing a fallback to 2d for accessibility
<charlie-tca> apinheiro: where did you get information that natty will use at-spi2?
<charlie-tca> I still it using at-spi
<charlie-tca> s/still it/still show it
<charlie-tca> !info at-spi2 natty
<charlie-tca> <ubottu> Package at-spi2 does not exist in natty
<apinheiro> charlie-tca, I know
<apinheiro> this is the reason I opened that bug
<apinheiro> because it was not working properly with at-spi
<charlie-tca> If natty will not even have at-spi2, then we need a fix that makes things work without it, right?
<apinheiro> that is the one what will be used on natty
<apinheiro> charlie-tca, that bug is fixed
<apinheiro> what I tried to tell Pendulum 
<charlie-tca> without at-spi2?
<apinheiro> is that without this fix
<apinheiro> was not possible to test unity with orca
<apinheiro> and this fix was applied today
<charlie-tca> I tested it on the 18th and it worked
<apinheiro> so I guess that it is not available on any natty package
<apinheiro> it worked the interaction with natty?
<apinheiro> sorry
<apinheiro> it worked the interaction with unity?
<apinheiro> or you tested it with other apps?
<charlie-tca> yes, I did a screen-reader install and it worked with unity
<charlie-tca> I have that install running on another machine, orca works
<apinheiro> so orca was speeching out when you interacted with the launcher?
<charlie-tca> yes
<apinheiro> and with the dash?
<charlie-tca> the dash is not accessible at all, that I can tell
<apinheiro> yes I know, it is a bug open
<apinheiro> but it is weird
<apinheiro> until this commit 
<apinheiro> with at-spi 
<apinheiro> orca didn't react
<apinheiro> with the launcher
<apinheiro> anyway, no problem
<charlie-tca> So it now works, right?
<apinheiro> launcher yes
<apinheiro> dash no
<charlie-tca> Thus the reason we need to fallback to 2d without the dash for accessibility, right?
<Pendulum> I thought it was falling back to gnome-desktop, not 2d Unity
<Pendulum> (sorry, to my brain 2d = 2d Unity)
<apinheiro> charlie-tca, yes I guess so
<charlie-tca> could be my mistake, but I thought 2d meant no dash
<Pendulum> charlie-tca: you may be right for Natty
<apinheiro> 2d what?
<apinheiro> unity-2d?
<apinheiro> or the old gnome-desktop ?
<charlie-tca> when logging in you have the option to choose classic-gnome desktop session
<charlie-tca> That is what we should be falling back to for this
<apinheiro> charlie-tca, ok thanks
<charlie-tca> It uses compiz, but not unity
<apinheiro> just for some effects
<charlie-tca> right
<apinheiro> but the low layers are still the old gnome desktop
<apinheiro> sorry
<apinheiro> as Pendulum said, I also confused this 2d
<apinheiro> with unity-2d
<charlie-tca> but at least then orca and the speech programs should work for us
<apinheiro> that afaik, it doesn't have any a11y support at all
<charlie-tca> why?
<Pendulum> I'm sure unity-2d doesn't have a11y support because it's Qt based
<charlie-tca> It should be the old gnome, which did have support
<Pendulum> charlie-tca: 2d Unity they were using Qt for
<charlie-tca> Oh, then I got the terms confused bad.
<charlie-tca> I will use classic-gnome to mean the right session, then.
<Pendulum> ta
<charlie-tca> sorry
<Pendulum> s'ok
<Pendulum> the whole thing is confusing
<charlie-tca> very
<apinheiro> yeah, at first I though that unity-2d was a kind of unity backend
<apinheiro> but afaik are totally different
<apinheiro> just the same appearance
<AlanBell> so new unity 2d is different to Maverick unity?
<charlie-tca> yes
<charlie-tca> nothing is quite the same as Maverick 
<apinheiro> AlanBell, there are two different programas
<AlanBell> wow, didn't realise that
<apinheiro> now there are two unity
<AlanBell> so we have three unities in total
<apinheiro> unity that uses opengl 
<apinheiro> and unity-2d that uses qt
<AlanBell> maverick, natty 3d and natty 2d
<apinheiro> that doesn't require a special hw
<apinheiro> well, afaik, maverick unity is "the past"
<apinheiro> is being replaced by the new natty unity
<charlie-tca> Yes, it certainly is
<AlanBell> yup
<AlanBell> although it is "the present" on my computer
<charlie-tca> And, the new natty unity is the nightmare for us
<charlie-tca> apinheiro: I will do a new install of natty today, and try the classic-gnome with orca
<apinheiro> ok, but just for your information, my work is about accessibility on unity
<apinheiro> but it is clear that if unity thing is not complete, classig-gnome would be required
<charlie-tca> heh, as heard in #ubuntu-desktop:
<charlie-tca> <didrocks> pitti: launcher is fully a11y. Still need some investigation this week for places though
 * Pendulum is very tempted to say "unless you need to use the onscreen keyboard"
<charlie-tca> Yeah, that and Orca today, apparently
<Pendulum> or is that on the dash that the issue showed up?
<charlie-tca> but they are very sure
<charlie-tca> dash
<charlie-tca> Can't use any onscreen keyboard with dash
<Pendulum> also when did blind people become the only people with a11y needs?>
<Pendulum> like, seriously!
<charlie-tca> heh
<Pendulum> (sorry, just saw another comment in same meeting)
<charlie-tca> I tried telling them a11y includes Orca, but that went no where
<charlie-tca> It's a losing battle now in natty. They will insist it works, as long as they don't need it
<Pendulum> you can see my comment I just made
<charlie-tca> yeah, I see it
<Pendulum> i'm going to poke after the meeting rather than disrupt
<charlie-tca> Like the comment I made on a mailing list, accessibility gets one step forward, and loses two steps getting there.
<AlanBell> hajour: your yahoo account is sending spam :(
<apinheiro> Pendulum, well, as I implementing the atk support for unity, I was just using orca to test that those thing were working
<apinheiro> but you are right
<apinheiro> ie
<apinheiro> someone tested the zoom plugin of compiz with unity?
<AlanBell> yes
<apinheiro> someone know if they are not "firiendly each other"?
<apinheiro> AlanBell, and it works fine the mixture unity+eZoom?
<AlanBell> it did work but right now I can't start it for some reason, I am halfway through a dist upgrade at the moment
<apinheiro> AlanBell, ok thanks
<AlanBell> seems the superkey+mousewheel binding vanished on my machine at least
<AlanBell> however I got it working and it zooms the desktop and apps successfully and I can use them whilst zoomed
<AlanBell> what it doesn't do is zoom the unity dock
<AlanBell> so they are getting friendly but not BFF just yet
<AlanBell> you can use the dock whilst zoomed
<Pendulum> charlie-tca: do you know if there are any bugs filed yet about the issues with onscreen keyboards in Unity?
<AlanBell> and the colour filters don't get applied to the dock
<Pendulum> AlanBell: those sound like bugs
<AlanBell> possibly
<AlanBell> I will retest once this upgrade has finished
<Pendulum> *nods*
<charlie-tca> yes, I filed one yesterday
<AlanBell> ah, I see why they do it like that
<charlie-tca> and there is another one about a different issue, I will have to look up
<AlanBell> it is going to be a wontfix
<AlanBell> the workspace switcher does the expose zoom out to show 6 desktops, you wouldn't want the dock to zoom out with it
<AlanBell> so they do the compiz stuff, then afterwards slap the dock on top of it
<AlanBell> so it isn't going to get zoomed, or colour filtered, or anything else really
<charlie-tca> bug 739812
<ubot2> Launchpad bug 739812 in unity "Must use hardware keyboard to perform search for applications in Unity" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/739812
<Pendulum> AlanBell: yeah, but that doesn't make it right
<cprofitt> hey Pendulum 
<Pendulum> AlanBell: better to raise the bug, use it for discussion, etc.
<Pendulum> hi charlie-tca 
<Pendulum> bah
<Pendulum> cprofitt: 
<AlanBell> Pendulum: I will
<Pendulum> AlanBell: subscribe me to it?
<cprofitt> looks like we have some bugs coming in for accessibility, heh?
<AlanBell> I will look through the list of plugins to see what other interesting things don't affect the dock
<cprofitt> for the global jam is there going to be an easy way to identify the accessibility bugs?
<charlie-tca> They are all tagged a11y
<cprofitt> nice.
<cprofitt> I think I may have a group of students at RIT that will want to work on those specifically
<charlie-tca> Great!
<cprofitt> can't promise, but that is my expectation
<cprofitt> they are NTID students
<charlie-tca> I will keep tagging them. I am subscribed to every accessibility package
<Pendulum> cprofitt: also, if they'd be willing to do more testing on a11y installs, it's always good :)
<charlie-tca> and make sure the applications work, too
<Pendulum> yes
<AlanBell> hmm
<AlanBell> my Natty VM seems to be telling me that it is time to re-test the full installation procedure
<charlie-tca> I can't get Unity to work in VBox now, without installing guest additions
<charlie-tca> um, that is VBox-OSE, and I haven't tried guest additions
<AlanBell> it doesn't
<AlanBell> it needs vbox 4 and guest additions
<cprofitt> Pendulum: I think they would be.
<charlie-tca> it used to work in VBox-OSE too
<cprofitt> I want to show them the wiki too...
<cprofitt> I hope to get a small group involved at the school... but we will see how it goes.
<cprofitt> far too often people say they will show up and then do not.
<hajour> hi all after i had kicked phillw out of the team with good reasons.there now are being send mails out of my name to accessibility,speechcontrol but also it is go trough to officel help instances who email adresses are now be used
<hajour> what can i do about this
<hajour> the mail is titled howdy
<hajour> i not have send it
<hajour> i not want put it in ubt but if that mail also go be used to send to then i will have no choice to inform everybody
<charlie-tca> AlanBell: ^ ^ 
<hajour> charlie-tca,  cprofitt AlanBell duanedesign jono mhall119 a
<hajour> weird mails are being send out of my name whit my email adres
<hajour> and speechcontrol launchpadmail to
<hajour> but also by a other persons instance mail from adhd/add and attached
<hajour> this not only do harm to me and speechcontrol but also harms others to
<charlie-tca> hajour: Thank you for telling us
<hajour> i not bo what to do about this honest say
<hajour> bo=no
<hajour> know
<hajour> also not who to tell this
<charlie-tca> You have done it right. 
<hajour> you where the ones i thought i must tell
<charlie-tca> You tell people that get these emails, and they delete them
<hajour> yes and after that?
<charlie-tca> If it gets real bad, you can change email address
<hajour> it has to stop he use my email adress
<charlie-tca> If not, then you can not do anything
<hajour> i am so tired of this
<hajour> i left lubuntu just to avoid situations like this
<AlanBell> hajour: this is your yahoo account getting hacked by a spammer, it is nothing to do with anyone you know
<hajour> not for people from lubuntu
<charlie-tca> I have one email address that this happened to. I never found a good fix
<hajour> but 1 person
<hajour> you not know what is more happened AlanBell  i have inform Pendulum  and we have inform cprofitt 
<hajour> i not want anymore that behind the curtains mess anymore
<hajour> i have give permision on Pendulum  to let read all councilmembers the pm between Pendulum  and me
<hajour> so only choice is to take a other email adres
<hajour> uh i lost spellings corecction in English suddenly
<charlie-tca> Maybe wait a few days and see if things settle down again.
<hajour> which light weight program there is more from ubuntu?
<charlie-tca> for email?
<hajour> nop i have kicked him because i had head it whit the manipulation in pm
<hajour> no on chat here
<hajour> and i want this stopped soon as possible
<AlanBell> if you can still log on to your account then do so, and change your password there
<AlanBell> hajour: this has *nothing* to do with phillw or any of the drama surrounding that whole speechcontrol/sii thing
<hajour> ye sure
<hajour> i will send the mails i had get from him to cprofitt not the spam other
<hajour> i not like to be set up to other peoples
<hajour> but i talk later i need to do things for my kids now
<pleia2> charlie-tca: is discussion about onboard keyboard and search happening anywhere but the mailing list and that bug report? /me notices Importance changes
<pleia2> s/the mailing list/the original thread on -accessibility
<Pendulum> pleia2: it's actually been on ubuntu-devel-discuss
<pleia2> Pendulum: ah, thanks
<pleia2> ah yeah, gmail was smart and merged the threads when I read it in my accessibility label
<Cheri703> can someone ping me when charlie-tca shows up?
<AlanBell> well Natty is totally screwed at the moment if you are running it in virtualbox
<AlanBell> so time for some work on the daniela persona
<AlanBell> http://pad.ubuntu-uk.org/daniela for anyone wanting to join in
<hajour> question how i can get command again from my own channel?
<hajour> someone removed my operator status
<hajour> on my own channel
<AlanBell> hajour: what channel?
<hajour> #speechcontrol-offtopic
<hajour> i not know by the others i not have tried also not UndiFineD  but there some things have been changed
<AlanBell> UndiFineD has ops there and can fix it
<hajour> ok 
<hajour> and i have i still command now?
<hajour> i had first voice
<AlanBell> sorry, I don't know that much about IRC
<AlanBell> however you are not cloaked at the moment
<hajour> well i was till tomorrow
<hajour> also my mail worked till tomorrow
<hajour> i had voice in my channel till this morning
<maco> hajour: do you mean yesterday?
<maco> or are you predicting the future?
<hajour> 22 march 6.30 morning amsterdam time
<maco> oh, so today
<AlanBell> hajour: get UndiFineD to say /msg chanserv flags #speechcontrol-offtopic
<hajour> then everything was still normal well most then
<AlanBell> nothing has changed
<hajour> ok i have copied it in dialoog window
<hajour> and i know go to his pc
<hajour> because UndiFineD  is sleeping
<hajour> i have 4 voice ? freenode 5 and why Mohi is having a flag?
<hajour> i cant recover also
<hajour> i had in beginning first voice
<hajour> UndiFineD,  sec
<hajour> and the jmarsden and charlie-tca
<hajour> and jacky offcourse
<hajour> dthen daniel because he is team lreader from seechcontrol inferno
<AlanBell> this isn't really the place to sort it out
<AlanBell> however can you paste the line that just relates to your name here
<hajour> daniel and  michaeh asked to give michael also voice because i needed to change topic in inferno
<AlanBell> or even better lets talk in #speechcontrol-offtopic as this conversation is irrelevant to most people here
<hajour> ok
#ubuntu-accessibility 2011-03-23
<hajour> i got access again to my mail
<hajour> it was hard to do but i have it
#ubuntu-accessibility 2011-03-24
<Pendulum> ooh... this looks interesting http://www.bbc.co.uk/ouch/features/fix_the_web.shtml
<UndiFineD> thanks Pendulum 
<Pendulum> TheMuso: out of curiosity (and based on the e-mail that went out to #ubuntu-devel between google docs or etherpad, which is more likely to be accessible to you?)
<TheMuso> Pendulum: Between google docs and etherpad, I think etherpad.
<Pendulum> TheMuso: I don't know if you've seen the discussion going on on the ubuntu-devel mailing list? I figured it didn't hurt to mention what works best from an accessibility standpoint
<TheMuso> Pendulum: What discussion? Just geting to emaoil this morning.
<TheMuso> Oh right, something better than gobby.
<Nafai> so, as I've become more aware of my reduced vision, I really have a hard time with low contrast things
<Nafai> Does anyone have a color scheme for gnome-terminal that provides decent contrast (I've been using the standard white on black)?
<charlie-tca> I use a black text on very light yellow for that very reason. The background yellow I use is #FFFFF0 or Red 255, Green 255, Blue 240
<Nafai> I'll give that a try, thanks
<charlie-tca> I have a very hard time reading the white text on black and most other combinations with a dark background
#ubuntu-accessibility 2011-03-25
<hajour> Pendulum, how i can get accessibility mail on my new mail address ?
<Pendulum> hajour: subscribe at https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/Ubuntu-accessibility
<hajour> delete my old 1 plz
<hajour> subscribed again
<Pendulum> *nods*
<hajour> trough all this extra work i still not have time to ask sponsoring for uds :(
<Pendulum> hajour: you have until Tuesday to apply
<hajour> yes but i need some help..and every time i had made a appointment something happened where through i not good do it
<hajour> i get really the feeling someone hates me that the person everytime cause problems
<hajour> how can i get a cloak ?
<Pendulum> hajour: I'd suggest working on a draft and then asking either in here or in #ubuntu-women if people are willing to read and comment on your draft.
<hajour> Pendulum,  may i pm you?
<hajour> mm i every time come to late last days to speak whit charlie-tca
<Pendulum> hajour: I need to go to bed. I'll talk to you tomorrow. Sorry
<hajour> ok goodnight Pendulum 
<Pendulum> g'night hajour 
<hajour> pleia2,  are you around?
<hajour> wanted to ask if you make something like  speechcontrol.which mailing lists would good to subscribe to
<hajour> to get info to make it so all programs can use it
<hajour> AlanBell, when you read this later.i have a new email address if it is right accessibility have it now .block the old 1 complete 
<valorie> hajour, probably best to write to the Listname-owner email address
<valorie> giving the old account name
<hajour> ok thanks valorie 
<charlie-tca> Pendulum: blog will be delayed, I had to order a new keyboard w/trackball
<Pendulum> charlie-tca: eep! hope all is okay!
<fregl> Riddell: I updated qt-at-spi to a slightly less crashy version. there are a few bugs inside qt though that also need to be fixed I fear
<Riddell> thanks fregl, I'll update the package when i get a moment
#ubuntu-accessibility 2011-03-27
<tobiasBora> Bonjour !
<tobiasBora> Dites, je cherche un logiciel de dictÃ©e vocale.
<tobiasBora> Est-ce que quelqu'un en connaitrait ?
<tobiasBora> Hello,
<tobiasBora> I would like use a programm of vocale dictation.
<tobiasBora> But I don't know where I could find one.
#ubuntu-accessibility 2012-03-19
 * jalcine_ is away: Gone away for now
#ubuntu-accessibility 2012-03-20
<Fudge> AlanBell  was he in gnome :p
<Fudge> apinel
<AlanBell> good question
<pvagner> Hello,
<pvagner> Please is there a way to run unity 2d with ubuntu precise daily live cd? or is that only possible after installing? I can see by default live cd starts with unity.
<pvagner> to be precise echo $DESKTOP_SESSION prints ubuntu
<AlanBell> I know it starts unity2d if you don't have the graphics hardware and drivers to do 3d
<pvagner> AlanBell: I have acer ao150 notebook. It has verry simple built-in intel graphic card. I don't think it's too powerfull but I can't navigate unity launcher and dash. F10 menus are accessible. compiz is running and $DESKOP_SESSIN variable shows the word ubuntu. So please how do I make the most of it?
<AlanBell> pvagner: probably not the best way, however I just ran metacity --replace &; unity-2d-shell &; unity-2d-panel &
<pvagner> AlanBell: so I should try running this in order to switch from unity 3d to unity 2d?
<pvagner> AlanBell: will I need to relogin?
<AlanBell> no, that kind of rips down the 3d stuff and runs the 2d stuff in the session you are in
<AlanBell> I am not sure if you can log out of the live CD
 * AlanBell tries on a live session
<pvagner> on a positive note comparing this precise live cd with for example gnome based ubuntu 2010.10 by exploring the menus, loading some simple random pages in firefox initially I feel the whole system responsiveness is much snappier.
<pvagner> I think my laptop is a kind of edge case when it comes to performance, I've only 1 GB of ram
<AlanBell> yeah, generally precise seems faster and smoother, just they broke a load of the accessibility around the time of the beta
<AlanBell> logging out of a live USB from a few weeks ago does not appear to do anything useful
<Fudge> hi
<jalcine> Hello o/
<Fudge> AlanBell you can restart ightdm but I think you need to restart for the common unity-2d changes to take effect
<Fudge> restart lightdm sorry
<Fudge> how you doing jalcine
<jalcine> I'm well, just carried up some laundry from the lobby for my mom.
<jalcine> How about you?
<Fudge> um ok
<Fudge> yep I am fine
<Fudge> whats new AlanBell mate
<jalcine> Hm, I need a bit of advice here.
<jalcine> Regarding PocketSphinx and acoustic models.
<jalcine> Should I have any newly adapted model generated by the user stored within their home directory or ask for user permission to overwrite the one used globally?
<jalcine> There's a daemon that allows other applications to use SpeechControl via D-Bus but they'd use the acoustic model that the user specify.
 * jalcine scratches his tiny chin hairs.
<Fudge> over my head
<jalcine> Lol :)
#ubuntu-accessibility 2012-03-21
<pvagner> AlanBell: sorry to disturb you again... er but please if you can... I've tried your advice from yesterday. I've started the live cd, pressed ctrl+s to start orca, alt+tabbed to the installer window, tabbed to the try ubuntu push button, hit space, waited for orca to come up again, pressed ctrl+aalt+t to bring up the terminal and typed
<pvagner> metacity --replace &; unity-2d-shell &; unity-2d-pannel &
<pvagner> what I got was a syntaks error. Then I've tried to do just
<pvagner> metacity --replace ; unity-2d-shell ; unity-2d-pannel &
<pvagner> which worked but...
<pvagner> I've got a crash of compiz. I have presset the push button saying something like keep closed. Then I have reaalized I am unable to use menus e.g. by pressing F10 and also I can't press alt+f1, alt+f2 etc. The only thing which worked at this stage is alt+tabbing to the orca window, launching orca preferences or using ctrl+alt+d to go to the desktop.
<pvagner> AlanBell: have I done something wrong please?
<pvagner> AlanBell: Is there something you think I can try?
<pvagner> just to remind a bit, my goal is to switch to unity 2d while running live cd
<pvagner> I'm running ubuntu live from usb not a cd so perhaps I can tweak some file to start ubuntu 2d instead of 3d this waay. However I don't seem to be able to find something relevant on google yet.
<pvagner> from the ui, it can be done as described here: http://askubuntu.com/questions/89102/how-do-i-enable-unity-2d-on-the-livecd
<pvagner> however there is no accessibility support for the login screen yet so this is not a working solution for me.
<pvagner> huh, I think I'm  not the only one wishing to do something like this. However this does not appear to be answered... http://osdir.com/ml/ubuntu-accessibility/2011-10/msg00058.html
<AlanBell> TheMuso: got any ideas on switching desktop environments from the live CD?
<TheMuso> AlanBell: You mean for the next running session when you log in/out? You need to change the session that is set as the login session, and AccountService stores this info for lightdm.
<TheMuso> So you need to use dbus to make the change.
<TheMuso> I did post a dbus-send command on the accessibility list a while back for this.
<AlanBell> does that work on the live cd?
<TheMuso> It should.
<TheMuso> You just need to log out and back in again.
<cprofitt> A cool device that would be nice to have working in Ubuntu
<cprofitt> http://www.madentec.com/products/intelliswitch.php
<cprofitt> http://www.madentec.com/products/discover-envoy.php
<pvagner> AlanBell: TheMuso: sorry most likelly I have missed the definitive answer. Can I somehow do it?
<MrChrisDruif> Hai guys
 * jalcine waves.
 * MrChrisDruif waves back to jalcine 
<MrChrisDruif> ;-)
<MrChrisDruif> Anyhow, are there any known issues in terms of accessibility with lightdm and are there known workarounds for them?
<TheMuso> MrChrisDruif: What version of Ubuntu?
<MrChrisDruif> TheMuso; 12.04
<TheMuso> MrChrisDruif: Ah ok.
<MrChrisDruif> (Better put, Lubuntu's 12.04)
<TheMuso> MrChrisDruif: Well you can now use orca in the login manager. If its not enabled, press Control + S to turn it on, and it will remain on for subsequent uses.
<TheMuso> Ah I don't know what greeter lubuntu is using, probably the standard GTK greeter, which has no accessibility support afaik.
<MrChrisDruif> Is that documented somewhere already?
<MrChrisDruif> Afaik indeed the default gtk one
<MrChrisDruif> s/default/standard
<TheMuso> The only way you will get accessibility for lightdm at this point, is if you install the unity-greeter package, which is the login greeter that Ubuntu uses.
<TheMuso> If I get a chance one day, I will look at the GTK greeter and implement similar support there.
<MrChrisDruif> But that Orca option is only available with the one of Ubuntu and it uses what greeter again?
<TheMuso> The unity-greeter package is what you want.
<MrChrisDruif> Maybe those things might be backported to 12.04 hopefully? That way even the LTS-user might benefit from it
<TheMuso> Probably not, because it will be an additional feature.
<TheMuso> And no additional features will be introduced into 12.04 post release.
<TheMuso> But something could be made available via the backports repository.
<MrChrisDruif> That would be nice I think
<MrChrisDruif> But is there anything documented about these acc. features for lightdm? And which greeter is needed to get it working?
<TheMuso> Unity-greeter is needed to get it working, thats what I have been trying to say.
<TheMuso> Nothing really officially documented yet, but I will be putting something together once 12.04 is out.
<MrChrisDruif> Why the hold up? Because things may still change? O_O
<TheMuso> No, because I don't have time.
<TheMuso> atm
<TheMuso> I am still working on fixing little bugs in and there.
<TheMuso> here
<MrChrisDruif> Alright
<MrChrisDruif> I might wanna start on something because Lubuntu is also switching to LightDM this release and it might be handy to (finally) have some docs
<JanC> docs should be mandatory before a package is accepted into the distro...  :-/
<MrChrisDruif> Ghehe, agreed JanC ^_^
<MrChrisDruif> Anyhow, I was looking for something more user orientated docs
<MrChrisDruif> So I'll see what I can come up with atleast for the Lubuntu crowd
<JanC> when I say docs I mean the whole range: from end-user over admin to developer
<jalcine> from manpages to Mallard/Docbook packages!
<JanC> manpages is what you often want as an admin / support person
<JanC> if only to find what you need to get useful debug output or override default, etc.
<MrChrisDruif> Indeed
<MrChrisDruif> Good point, but don't expect it to ever happen. At least not with Ubuntu, not any time soon if at all.
<JanC> well, some (Ubuntu) projects insist on tests to accept patches, I think they should do the same for docs...  ;)
<jalcine> Well, it would be helpful if the help center for apps was a bit unified and easy to get to.
<MrChrisDruif> I think Arch would sooner get that then Ubuntu
<jalcine> They would.
<MrChrisDruif> Seeing how their wiki is now
<JanC> well, the BSDs too, but their "base system" is very limited, of course
<MrChrisDruif> Arch's base system is also very limited ;-)
<JanC> oh, and GNU projects (except you need 'info' to read it then)
#ubuntu-accessibility 2012-03-22
<pvagner> huh guys I've found it.... Might this work in precise? https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-accessibility/2011-November/005515.html
<pvagner> is it possible desktop session type might have some impact on other parts of the desktop ui?
<pvagner> I've just tried to boot to ubuntu, then I've tried the following command as root and also as a normal user:
<pvagner> dbus-send --type=method_call --system --reply-timeout=1000 --dest=org.freedesktop.Accounts /org/freedesktop/Accounts/User$UID org.freedesktop.Accounts.User.SetXSession string:ubuntu-2d
<pvagner> where my uid is 999.
<pvagner> It did not cause a noticeable change on my system.
<pvagner> then I was trying to use empathy to add an irc account so I don't need to switch between ubuntu and windows to ask here and the add button in the aaccounts dialog of empathy does not react to keyboard events.
<pvagner> heh I'm strange trying to play with stuff which are not yet ready for blind people. I am at least search whether there might be a bug on that add button with empathy.
<pvagner> *going to search
<pvagner> guys also there appear to be problems reading read only edit fields. I have noticed that in the empathy preferences window on the themes tab. you can pick a theme there and see how it looks like. Such read only edit field is only readable using flat review. I can remember this working well e.g. in ubuntu 2010.4 . Is there something I need to toggle to make such edit fieldsreadable using the arrow keys?
<pvagner> I am afraid this is global issue not just empathy.
#ubuntu-accessibility 2012-03-23
<pvagner> guys, I've most likelly figured out what I'm doing wrong. I have got a dbus command which changes desktop session type from ubuntu to ubuntu-2d . I was missing a step that I need to logout and then login back in order to put this into effect.
<pvagner> so I can change the session type, I can also logout using the following commandline
<pvagner> gnome-session-quit --logout --no-prompt
<pvagner> what I am unable to do is logging back in.
<pvagner> this is all using live cd.
<pvagner> I've found out by reading ubuntu-accessibility list that login screen is supposed to be accessible in the curent 2012.4 daily live images. however by pressing ctrl+s nothing audible happens for me. Is this supposed to also be working when running live cd?
<pvagner> I've also found instructions on howto switch from unity to unity 2d in 2011.10, I've tried to apply that blindly without knowing what I'm doing with no luck either.
<pvagner> I think I am really close now. Please If you've got a bit of spare time and you can give me a hint it'll be appreciated.
#ubuntu-accessibility 2013-03-19
<leoquant> AlanBell, is it possible to use meetingology in our channel #ubuntu-nl-mwanzo?
<AlanBell> meetingology join #ubuntu-nl-mwanzo
#ubuntu-accessibility 2013-03-21
<Fudge> Bugzilla #646069).
<Fudge> bug 646069
<ubot2> Launchpad bug 646069 in Ubuntu Font Family "Style: Greek: document rationale for design of PERISPOMENI accent (tilde vs. inverted breve)" [Low,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/646069
<Fudge> bug 580874
<ubot2> Launchpad bug 580874 in Politis "[beginning of july] Get started on production tasks" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/580874
#ubuntu-accessibility 2013-03-24
<Fudge> AlanBell  ping
<AlanBell> hi Fudge 
<BlueWolf> Hi, does anyone know of a linux program that types up words as they are spoken. Eg - One has a microphone and speaks into it and the program types up the words instead of having to physically type them?
#ubuntu-accessibility 2015-03-21
<Fudge> very qauiet
#ubuntu-accessibility 2020-03-16
<zippo^> hi moza
