#ubuntu-learning 2009-10-12
<cprofitt> anyone in?
<cprofitt> pleia2, if you get in let me know
<cprofitt> doctormo, you on?
<doctormo> cprofitt: I am
<cprofitt> can we discuss the "Using Ubuntu page:
<cprofitt> I am trying to move over some of the old EDU focus group items...
<cprofitt> and the bullet items appear a bit... well... not organized
<cprofitt> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Learning/UbuntuDesktopTopics
<cprofitt> Using vs. Maintain....
<cprofitt> are they the 'correct' headings?
<cprofitt> doctormo, you still here?
<doctormo> YEs
<doctormo> sorry
<doctormo> Still stunned from getting a hug from Miguel
<doctormo> OK so,
<doctormo> cprofitt: The Using Ubuntu page shouldn't have any maintaining ubuntu topics, it's strickly using
<cprofitt> ah...
<cprofitt> right... but it appears to not be about using vs. maintaining
<cprofitt> we also lumped systems administration in there...
<doctormo> cprofitt: Each topic has an organiser, I'm the organiser for the systems admin topic and I will do gardening for other topics until they become the responsbility of who ever steps up to fill them.
<doctormo> Systems administration is in the maining ubuntu section
<doctormo> If it's being mentioned in the Using Ubuntu, then it's in the wrong place.
<cprofitt> well... I am looking at the How to Maintain -- it has systems administration in it
<cprofitt> and I am looking at Using...
<cprofitt> I noticed that in using there is command line basics
<cprofitt> and in Sys Admin there is command line basics
<doctormo> cprofitt: There shouldn't really be a cli topic in using, pleia2 can you confirm your gardening of the using topics?
<cprofitt> doctormo, why would using not have command line topics?
<cprofitt> it appears to be a cross-over topic
<cprofitt> IMHO
<doctormo> cprofitt: Because the command line isn't desktop use and for now I'd much prefer to keep the learning objectivies clearer for desktop users than add complexity simply because it's more technically correct.
<cprofitt> Then perhaps our 'titles' need to be
<cprofitt> well... 'rethought'
<doctormo> Very possible
<cprofitt> desktop and sysadmin
<cprofitt> instead of 'using' and 'maintaining'
<doctormo> cprofitt: I think I have a better idea
<cprofitt> I also think that there are, as in college courses, a need for common basics
<cprofitt> a desktop user needs some of the same base a systems administrator does
<cprofitt> perhaps 'basic Ubuntu'
<cprofitt> 'desktop Ubuntu'
<doctormo> cprofitt: The CLI lesson in the sys admin topics is a base requirement, not an actual class. If you look it's seperated off.
<cprofitt> 'server Ubuntu'
<cprofitt> and 'Advanced Ubuntu for the Systems Administrator'
<cprofitt> yes... as a base topic...
<cprofitt> and you are listed as completing the course...
<doctormo> cprofitt: So if Using has more than a single course, but has an advanced users section, then the base line requirements for sys admin course can be put in there.
<cprofitt> but on the 'Using' you are not listed
<cprofitt> so I just edited the page to 'do it', but you appear to have it done
<cprofitt> you think that each 'button' area is one course?
<doctormo> Sorry I don't understand what I have done.
<doctormo> No each button area is a section (moodle's course topics I think)
<doctormo> And a section can contain more than one course, but for now it's just an inital course.
<doctormo> Besides, I'm thinking courses should be a little more flexible and be able to blend thing together is required for a teacher.
<doctormo> But that's something for the future
<hal14450> doctormo, did you ever get a chance to test out the sip account?
<cprofitt> we used it the other night hal14450
<doctormo> it was really very good
<doctormo> thanks hal14450
<hal14450> cool
<hal14450> np yw
<cprofitt> doctormo, you have the command line basics done though right?
<doctormo> cprofitt: yes
<hal14450> at least sip to sip doesn't cost me anything lol
<doctormo> cprofitt: It's in alpha, your welcome to take it over to using/advanced and develop it further
<cprofitt> doctormo, that is ok... looking to take one some stuff
<cprofitt> ... but to be clear each of those pages details one course?
<doctormo> cprofitt: No, each of those pages documents possible topics to be developed into courses and the structure that it might be useful to use.
<doctormo> cprofitt: It's more like a scratch pad, and each heading should be a course I think
<doctormo> cprofitt: Which section/course/class will you be wanting to take on?
<cprofitt> by heading you mean the 'primary bullet'
<doctormo> cprofitt: No I mean wiki === heading ===
<cprofitt> I am not following...
<cprofitt> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Learning/UbuntuDesktopTopics
<cprofitt> are there any 'courses' on this page or just an outline of possible topics?
<doctormo> cprofitt: At the moment there is only an outline of possible topics. Below that but just above Further Material is each course as a header.
<cprofitt> ok... so neither page actually has a course outline yet...
<cprofitt> just suggested topics
<doctormo> I'm editing the sysadmin topics page so it makes sense
<cprofitt> now I am following
<cprofitt> doctormo, here is some 'course requests' I had from folks that I asked on the forums
<cprofitt> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BeginnersTeam/FocusGroups/Education/Instructors
<cprofitt> this is old... before we started to talk about Learning
<cprofitt> where do you see working those topics in?
<cprofitt> doctormo, here was our list of resources -- https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BeginnersTeam/FocusGroups/Education/Resources
<doctormo> cprofitt: Indervidual topics which could become indervidual lessons should go into the topics list. Ideas that become courses should have a section I guess.
<doctormo> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Learning/SystemAdminTopics <- I've grouped together my course outline on this page now
<cprofitt> I was curious as to which page you would think those fall under doctormo
<cprofitt> doctormo, the courses you have all seem like one day courses?
<doctormo> cprofitt: Beginner belongs in the command line lesson
<doctormo> cprofitt: Intermediate is spread around a bit in the sysadmin course.
<doctormo> Encyrption, Advanced ssh and compiling doesn't yes exist, but would be in maintaining.
<cprofitt> doctormo, those are the resources....
<cprofitt> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BeginnersTeam/FocusGroups/Education/Instructors
<doctormo> Ok sorry
<cprofitt> those are the 'course' requests
<cprofitt> sorry for posting too many pages at once
<doctormo> How to file a bug is "Get Involved/Community" section
<doctormo> Meta-packages is for the packaging section in maintain
<doctormo> Transition from windows is a special case, it doesn't belong in any of the existing sections.
<cprofitt> but valuable as a topic I think, yes?
<doctormo> Squid is maintain, networking and hardware is probably special outside too, but maintain in case we don't get to them.
<doctormo> cprofitt: Yes, but it becomes more of a how to, than a class. Although people may want to teach it. From my own experences people seem to be able to get Ubuntu without having it compared to windows.
<doctormo> But sysadmins may need something like that
<doctormo> Installing software is maintain
<cprofitt> sounds good...
<cprofitt> now... as a question....
<doctormo> Encryption would probably be advanced user or maintain, depending on how indepth it went and the scope (one machine vs network)
<cprofitt> if I have a desktop user who wants training -- will they take courses in both use and maintain?
<doctormo> Sound is obviously desktop maintain, perhaps a desktop maintain course would be a goodidea
<cprofitt> doctormo, did you go to college/university?
<doctormo> So Maintain > Desktop Course, Use > Server Course
<doctormo> cprofitt: No, I'm a non-educationed bastard.
<cprofitt> ok...
<doctormo> :-P
<cprofitt> I will try to explain the 'thought process' then
<cprofitt> ...
<cprofitt> in college you have to take a 'base', a 'core' for your major and then 'electives'
<cprofitt> I think part of our 'mission' should be to design a 'series' of courses
<cprofitt> for the user (non-sys admin) who wants to be proficient at supporting themselves
<cprofitt> that likely involves some use, some maintain courses
<doctormo> cprofitt: An overall scheme, yes, it makes sense.
<cprofitt> we would want to develop a 'sys admin' track...
<cprofitt> etc....
<cprofitt> ok... glad that worked...
<doctormo> cprofitt: But as i said, I'd like to make it so that courses were dynamic, but our development sectioning doesn't have to match how courses will be organised in a published manner.
<cprofitt> true... but
<doctormo> Because if someone comes along and takes 3 from here, 2 from there and one over here and it really works, I want that experimentation.
<cprofitt> we have to keep in mind that we may want to develop courses in certain 'chunks' so they can be used in both tracks if applicable
<cprofitt> doctormo, I agree they can take things out of context...
<cprofitt> or in different parts...
<cprofitt> I am just saying we do not want to build command line topics in to a course for server admins...
<cprofitt> and have nothing for the home desktop user
<cprofitt> as both will use command line
<cprofitt> that does not mean all 'home users' would chose to take a command line course though
<cprofitt> does that make sense?
<doctormo> cprofitt: Yes
<cprofitt> k
<doctormo> cprofitt: And I'd suggest that the command line class should be developed in 'use' and published in systems-admin base and user/advanced core.
<cprofitt> so... do we need an overall curriculum manager as well as the 'area' organizers?
<cprofitt> I agree...
<doctormo> cprofitt: Sounds like your viying for the job :-)
<cprofitt> not at all doctormo - just looking to see if we think we need that
<cprofitt> I am sorry for having been absent for such an active period in this groups development, but work does that at times
<doctormo> I'd like some input from other board and non board members, bodhizazen, Vantrax, pleia2?
<cprofitt> I am trying to feel my way around what has happened while I was distracted
<cprofitt> ... I would always bring it up at a meeting.
<cprofitt> just looking for you opinion
<doctormo> cprofitt: What happened, it got quiet, I did a lot of work teaching and writing, I pushed others to join in writing, we kind of made it up as we went along.
<cprofitt> I understand...
<cprofitt> I am feeling my way around that... and trying not to bend noses or step on toes
<doctormo> cprofitt: That may not be so possible, you know what your doing because it's your job. I'm an amature playing at being lead doer.
<cprofitt> My job is a sys admin -- not an educator
<cprofitt> I may be closer to 'education' due to working at a K-12...
<doctormo> It's likely that you'll come in, cause a little nose bending on my behalf, but hopefully we'll get along and sort out the parts were I've gone mad.
<cprofitt> but I am by no means an educational expert
<cprofitt> and thus far my attempts to get some K-12 experts to help with curriculum design has been a dismal failure
<cprofitt> I am sure we will sort things out doctormo
<cprofitt> I have strong opinions and respect that in others
<cprofitt> I never, ever let my strong opinion close my eyes or cause me to get 'upset' for more than a few days
<cprofitt> and I always come back to the table
<doctormo> cprofitt: Aye, I will do the same, I can be quite obstinant at times too.
<doctormo> But I always remind myself that I'm not an expert and must accept the experence of others.
<cprofitt> none are experts...
<cprofitt> doctormo, any idea when the next meeting is?
<doctormo> cprofitt: It should be being organized by pleia2 and yourself.
<cprofitt> ok... pleia2 has been doing it... I will work it out with her.
<cprofitt> We really need to have a schedule up... that is current in our topic
<doctormo> aye
<Vantrax> one sec
<cprofitt> hey Vantrax
<cprofitt> Vantrax, doctormo -- http://learn.ufbt.net/course/view.php?id=8
<cprofitt> 'shell' course for installing
<Vantrax> I like cprofitt's view with core and electives, but i would call it differently
<Vantrax> make it a recommended series
<cprofitt> yes, that is more appropriate to what we are...
<cprofitt> as we are not a college/university
<Vantrax> and have a range of courses available outside those recommended ones that can also be taken
<cprofitt> Vantrax, did you catch that link?
<Vantrax> yes sorry
<cprofitt> no problem... do those outlines seem to make sense?
<cprofitt> http://learn.ufbt.net/course/view.php?id=9
<cprofitt> as well.
<Vantrax> yep
<Vantrax> I think we should generate the outlines in the wiki tho
<Vantrax> then put them into moodle
<cprofitt> perhaps...
<cprofitt> I wanted to show people what it would look like in Moodle...
<cprofitt> what would the advantage be to putting outlines in to the wiki?
 * cprofitt floats back in time with The Rolling Stones - Waiting On A Friend
<bodhizazen> 'lol cprofitt
<cprofitt> hey bodhizazen have time to talk now?
<pleia2> cprofitt: we've all just sorta been hacking away at things
<cprofitt> cool... did you check the links pleia2 ?
<pleia2> in theory, yeah I'm in charge of UbuntuDesktopTopics - and I have one super introductory course #1 in the works, but in practice I was *swamped* with Ubuntu work in September
<pleia2> I've seen some of them before
<cprofitt> I just made both tonight
<pleia2> cool, installations
<cprofitt> http://learn.ufbt.net/course/view.php?id=9
<cprofitt> http://learn.ufbt.net/course/view.php?id=8
<pleia2> I thought you meant the earlier links, ubuntu beginner ones :)
<pleia2> yeah, looking at moodle ones now
<pleia2> cprofitt: hm, did you update the wiki for this structure?
<pleia2> I think the workflow kinda has to be: wiki > bzr (or moodle, since you prefer) > publish
<cprofitt> pleia2, a few changes... but minor
<pleia2> we all want to start collaboration on the wiki
<cprofitt> pleia2, still debating on bzr
<cprofitt> some of the 'books' can be in bzr, but not the course as a whole
<pleia2> right now your moodle courses look a lot different than what people, bodhi and I have hashed together on the wiki, and that'll quickly get confusing
<pleia2> have you seen what doctormo has put in bzr?
<BiosElement> Assuming bzr is as simple as *download course* *commit updates* course buttons, why would there be a problem with using it?
<pleia2> he ~/bzr/ubuntu-learning-materials/systems-admin/01 - command line$ ls
<pleia2> file1.txt  file3.txt        NOTES               practical-sheet.odt
<pleia2> file2.txt  lesson-plan.odt  overview-sheet.odt  presentation
<pleia2> ^^ so, he doesn't have quizzes and things, but all the rest is in bzr
<cprofitt> BiosElement, there is no way to put some of the interactive parts of Moodle in there
<pleia2> cprofitt: I am pretty sure we don't want to assume people are using moodle, these might be irc or net-less classrooms
<pleia2> classes
<pleia2> so if you put stuff in moodle, you can put quizzes and interactive moodle things in, but that won't be the assumption
<BiosElement> cprofitt: Well there's also no way to put some of the interactive parts of moodle onto paper ;) So I think the interactive things should be in addition to written courses.
<pleia2> BiosElement: +1
<cprofitt> BiosElement, true... then again there is no need to have a written part of the course
<pleia2> no need to have a written part?
<BiosElement> cprofitt: And classes could be taught 'in-person' how?
<pleia2> for the core curriculum, we need the basic written stuff that doctormo has been outlining these past couple months
<cprofitt> BiosElement, the original goal of this project was not to provide in-person classes, but moderated on-line classes
<pleia2> cprofitt: it's not?
<pleia2> cprofitt: I think we disagree
<cprofitt> while it is great we are using bzr and courses can be done that way... I am not sure we want to 'require' that of course authors
<BiosElement> pleia2: +1
<cprofitt> pleia2, I think it is a side goal
<cprofitt> we want to provide an on-line course framework first...
<pleia2> the goal of this project was to develop core curriculum for teaching in IRC (why I got involved), teaching at locos (another reason I got involved, and moodle (I am not hugely into this, this is where you come in)
<cprofitt> one that can be migrated and used by others if possible
<cprofitt> and potentially be used in person as well
<pleia2> cprofitt: so far, all we've done is develop coursework for classrooms, that is what is being done first because doctormo is already doing it
<cprofitt> but I always thought the core was to provide on-line
<pleia2> cprofitt: for you maybe, but doc is doing in person, I'm doing in IRC
<cprofitt> some instructor lead, some self-paced... some that would have IRC, some that would not
<pleia2> the reason we have such a diverse board is because we all have different goals :)
<pleia2> your goals of moodle stuff aren't more important than mine in IRC, or doc's real life stuff
<cprofitt> I agree we all have different goals
<cprofitt> woah...
<pleia2> so the project develops core stuff
<pleia2> then we diversify and put it into our mediums
<cprofitt> I could care less if we used Moodle, Sakai or another CMS
<pleia2> I use core stuff or IRC, doc uses core stuff for releasing pdfs he teaches in classrooms, you use core stuff to launch moodle classes
<pleia2> s/or/for
<cprofitt> I just do not want to 'force' or 'lock' down course authors in to a process that may inhibit growth
<pleia2> well, currently we don't really have a process
<cprofitt> I do not want to remove the ability of each author to use a process they are comfortable with
<pleia2> of course
<pleia2> starting with the wiki really has to be the beginning of things though
<cprofitt> So... in my case I am not sure how to use asciidocs...
<cprofitt> I will try...
<BiosElement> Honestly I think the most productive way is to focus on the "course" at the simplest form possible and use the teaching formats such as moodle, irc and printed as extensions of the course rather then core.
<cprofitt> but I know Moodle... and can design and build inside that
<pleia2> cprofitt: if you want to write stuff in moodle and have me backport it to asciidoc, that's fine, but we really need to collaborate on the wiki too, since that's how the rest of us are working
<cprofitt> BiosElement, I think having people write with the tool they are familiar with is likely to work
<cprofitt> pleia2, I agree with the wiki...
<cprofitt> doctormo and I discussed some of that today
<pleia2> ok, good :)
<BiosElement> cprofitt: I'll help port it to asciidoc if needed also. Actually offered to do that but doctormo isn't a fan of backporting because it's dull work.
<cprofitt> we also need to work on building 'strands'
<pleia2> I figure wiki is kinda common ground, and easy entry point for new contributors to see what's up
<cprofitt> I think the current pages we have up are a bit rough from the perspective of putting together a 'course' or 'strand'
<pleia2> cprofitt: oh yes, they are very rough, it's all brainstorms that need to be reined in
<cprofitt> and I realize that I, due to being inactive this summer, am standing in a glass house
<pleia2> we've all just been throwing our thoughts up there and slowly getting them worked into a usable form
<cprofitt> I sent an email to the list today on the rough concept I am talking about
<pleia2> but it's time-consuming, we need more help :)
<BiosElement> cprofitt: It's rough but I do like your concept so far.
<cprofitt> we need to break 'courses' up in to meaningful chunks that can be put together in to strands
<cprofitt> command line is useful for desktop users and server users
<pleia2> cprofitt: I really think we want to be discussing this on list and on the wiki though, perhaps before setting the courses in stone in moodle
<cprofitt> so beginning command line should be in both strands
<cprofitt> for that reason we should have a sep. course on beginners command line
<cprofitt> and not have it contained in another course
<cprofitt> I agree -- I built a rough framework on Moodle tonight
<cprofitt> not a thing set in stone
<cprofitt> I prefer to 'show' examples
<pleia2> the rough framework seems to ignore al lthe work bodhi and I have done these past couple months
<pleia2> alright
<cprofitt> and I realized that through my teaching you and doctormo that I did not have 'examples' that were strong enough
<cprofitt> so I need to make at least one
<cprofitt> even if it never gets published
<pleia2> sounds good, I just want to make sure we're collaborating here properly
<cprofitt> I do not see how I am ignoring any work you and bodhi did... please explain
<pleia2> cprofitt: the structure in moodle currently is vastly different from what we have in the wiki
<pleia2> it might have been brainstorming, but we did actually put some thought into it :)
<cprofitt> I though that was a brainstorm for topics -- not the structure of a course
<cprofitt> from my talk with doctormo anyway
<pleia2> the wiki page was built to start out as brainstorming, and evolve into course layout
<pleia2> so as we think about course layout, we update the wiki
<cprofitt> the current categories in Moodle are How to Maintain, How to Develop, How to Spread, How to Use Ubuntu
<cprofitt> those match right?
<pleia2> and how to teach
<cprofitt> That is the Moodle Courses...
<cprofitt> so we just need to 'change that title'
<pleia2> we aren't putting the "how to teach" category into moodle?
<cprofitt> we are...
<cprofitt> in Moodle it is currently listed as Moodle Courses
<cprofitt> so we need to change the 'category' title
<pleia2> oh, gotcha
<pleia2> yeah, because it's broader than that, goes into in-classroom teaching and such
<cprofitt> so for your course ideas
<cprofitt> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Learning/UbuntuDesktopTopics
<cprofitt> Introduction to the Command Line
<cprofitt>     * handling files w/ command line
<cprofitt>     * troubleshooting w/ command line
<cprofitt>     * hardware related command line
<cprofitt> those topics would also be in How To Maintain / server courses right?
<cprofitt> Installing Applications
<cprofitt>     * What are repositories, and how do they work
<cprofitt>     * Add/Remove Programs
<cprofitt>     * Aptitude and Apt
<cprofitt>     * Synaptic Package Manager
<pleia2> so, since doctormo is actually experienced with teaching the desktop stuff, I think we need to collaborate with him as to how soon/if this CLI should be taught in an introductory desktop class
<cprofitt> and the installing would be as well right?
<pleia2> in the past he has said he's avoided it, since the first courses are very very basic, for people who just surf the web and check email
<cprofitt> I am looking at your page...
<cprofitt> I added the sub-bullets to command line, but it was there...
<cprofitt> and the installing applications was there too
<pleia2> installing applications all sounds reasonable
<cprofitt> that page is just one course... or ideas for all Desktop topics?
<pleia2> getting into hard core command line stuff I don't remember
<cprofitt> I was looking at the main bullets are topic areas...
<cprofitt> and did not think that the entire thing was a course outline
<pleia2> hang on, let me dig up the log from when we discussed how we develop courses
<pleia2> maybe it'll help clear things up
<cprofitt> I think it is linked from that page
<cprofitt> http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2009/08/14/%23ubuntu-learning.html
<pleia2> ah, yes
<cprofitt> as a quick bit of clarification... is the outline on that page - topics or a course?
<pleia2> a bit of everything
<pleia2> sorry, I've been doing the best I can at this alone
<cprofitt> ...
<cprofitt> No, problem...
<cprofitt> I talked to Doc today and he led me to believe it was just a list of ideas / topics
<pleia2> ok, so we toss ideas on the wiki
<cprofitt> and the topics had to be 'grouped' in to courses
<pleia2> then we take the ideas on the wiki and start grouping them
<pleia2> still on the wiki
<cprofitt> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Learning/SystemAdminTopics
<cprofitt> see his page...
<pleia2> and then we start collaborating and deciding what should be grouped together, still on the wiki
<cprofitt> yes... we need to get the grouped on the wiki...
<pleia2> I mean, some of it is grouped
<cprofitt> but we have to be aware of 'topics' that cross boundaries
<pleia2> just needs further development
<cprofitt> no sense in you developing a course on keeping Ubuntu up to date and installing new software embedded in a basic desktop course
<pleia2> and organizing (for instance, if we do command line stuff in the desktop course, it should be at the end)
<cprofitt> and have someone else do the same for servers if the content is the same
<pleia2> of course
<cprofitt> -- think different for a second pleia2
<cprofitt> do not embed command line in a desktop course
<cprofitt> make it a course
<cprofitt> that is part of both the desktop and server strand
<cprofitt> kinda like a college major
<pleia2> maybe I'm a bit confused as to your terms
<pleia2> and like doctormo, I was never formally educated
<cprofitt> a CS major would take C++ and Perl...
<cprofitt> so would a Systems Administration major
<pleia2> (nothing beyond k12)
<cprofitt> there are 'courses' that are part of both majors
<pleia2> ok
<cprofitt> so instead of those topics being embedded inside another course they get their own...
<cprofitt> and we give people a strand...
<cprofitt> desktop
<cprofitt>  * install
<cprofitt>  * Open Office
<cprofitt>  * Multimedia
<cprofitt> the bullets are each a course
<cprofitt> the desktop is the 'major'
<pleia2> right
<cprofitt> college majors have 'required' and 'electives'
<cprofitt> we will have 'recommended'
<cprofitt> and 'extras'
<cprofitt> or 'basic'
<cprofitt> and 'power users'
<cprofitt> or some such
<cprofitt> so we build small courses
<cprofitt> and put them together in a 'strand' depending on what people would need to learn to accomplish certain things
<cprofitt> server strand would include MySQL, PHP, Apache, etc
<cprofitt> but a person may not take Apache if they just intend to be a DB admin
<pleia2> ok
<cprofitt> did I clarify that enough?
<pleia2> hm, maybe we were talking about different things then
<cprofitt> so on the wiki -- we need a 'ideas' + 'topics'
<cprofitt> we then need to take the ideas and develop courses
<pleia2> ah, instead of fleshing it all out inline?
<cprofitt> keeping in mind items that cross 'areas'
<cprofitt> to ensure that we do not do double work
<cprofitt> I always thought the button areas were strands from how they were explained not monolithic courses
<cprofitt> after we have the courses we can build the strands...
<cprofitt> desktop user
<cprofitt> desktop support technicia
<cprofitt> etc...
<cprofitt> what should people learn to do 'job x'
<cprofitt> and job y
<cprofitt> etc.
<pleia2> ok, maybe you should start putting this framework into place for the desktop course wiki page?
<cprofitt> http://www.rit.edu/programs/grad/colleges/ccis/net_admin.html
<pleia2> I think that would help me understand
<cprofitt> that is an example of a masters program
<cprofitt> I intend to... want to discuss it on the ML and at the next meeting...
<pleia2> yeah, I do understand that classes are shared between majors
<cprofitt> then can put it in place on the wiki...
<pleia2> and that it's probably good for us too
<pleia2> ok
<cprofitt> This is the first time I have had to really put my brain to thinking about this stuff
<cprofitt> so I apologize for injecting ideas 'late'
<cprofitt> I also think we really have to produce a single course...
<cprofitt> and then build out a complete strand...
<pleia2> they're good ideas, just causes us to backtrack again
<cprofitt> and think we should focus on getting that done...
<cprofitt> pleia2, I am not sure it really causes backtracking...
<cprofitt> as the ascidocs should be able to be 'broken' up
<cprofitt> and little work should be lost...
<pleia2> yeah, but we'll need to rethink how we've been doing development in bzr
<pleia2> nothing should be lost, just more restructuring
<cprofitt> from the view I have... the 'courses' you and doc were working on will become the strands
<pleia2> I think mostly I'm just frustrated that I've been trying to write a course for months, and every month someone has a new idea as to how to go about it
<cprofitt> I have not looked at the bzr pages yet...
<pleia2> ah
<cprofitt> I will have to do that soon too.
<cprofitt> you will be happy with one 'idea' of mine then pleia2
<pleia2> yeah, I think it would help us all get on the same page
<cprofitt> I think the 'basic' desktop strand is the first that we need to finish
<pleia2> cprofitt: your ideas are good and come from experience
<cprofitt> so I am all for helping you get it 'done'
<pleia2> I am just wondering if I should step back for a while until it's all hashed out
<pleia2> else I go crazy :)
<cprofitt> I can not speak to that pleia2, but I suspect we have all had our share of 'crazy' moments
<cprofitt> I certainly respect people who are willing to fight through the misunderstandings and mis-steps that are inevitable with a volunteer project
<cprofitt> and I find your input to be of high value
<pleia2> when it comes down to it, I don't care a *ton* about how we go about course development, so long as the end result is core material that can be used in the 3 major mediums the project targets (irc, live, and moodle)
<pleia2> I am just growing tired of the rollar coaster, just tell me where I can put the core material I write and I'll be happy :)
<pleia2> one day it's odt, then it's asciidoc, then it's "wait, aren't we doing this all in moodle?" aah
<cprofitt> to be honest...
<cprofitt> I think the 'content' can come from .odt, asciidocs, or even existing wiki pages
<pleia2> well, the "content" I speak of is what doctormo has in bzr now
<cprofitt> authors should pick the 'content' and mold it in to a course
<pleia2> which is already in a loose course format, which can be put into irc, live or moodle
<cprofitt> for example there are several quality command line wiki's and guides available
<cprofitt> we may or may not need to re-write parts...
<pleia2> I think having a look at bzr would help this discussion a lot
<pleia2> we don't seem to be on the same page here
<cprofitt> but some of the existing resources could be used as a 'book' would be in a college course
<pleia2> doctormo isn't just copying stuff from wikis into bzr, he has course outlines and stuff
<cprofitt> we need to frame the course out... and that is why I wanted to work on the two in Moodle so I could show a concrete example
<cprofitt> I know... I know
<pleia2> ok
<cprofitt> his stuff is good.
<cprofitt> I like his outlines that he has on his blog
<pleia2> his stuff currently is loose enough that it can be molded into whatever format we want, and that's what I mean when I say "core material"
<cprofitt> you do agree that wiki material can be used too; right?
<pleia2> yes
<cprofitt> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Beginners/BashScripting
<cprofitt> that is already done...
<cprofitt> but guiding a 'student' to learning it is another matter.
<pleia2> right, so we'd need to put it into a course layout
<pleia2> right
<cprofitt> back when the EDU FG existed -- https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BeginnersTeam/FocusGroups/Education/Resources
<cprofitt> I had this...
<cprofitt> I have not reviewed it for dead links, etc...
<cprofitt> but there is a lot of quality material...
<pleia2> yeah, that's kinda what we're doing with our inline links on the wiki
<cprofitt> already in the community and we need to leverage that for courses
<pleia2> collecting good source material, good references
<cprofitt> right -- so then the course would have to put stuff together...
<pleia2> if you see on SystemAdminTopics for instance, there are such links
<cprofitt> add a bit of knowledge
<pleia2> yeah, and we've been gathering volunteers to find these links to good documentation
<cprofitt> and check for understanding with quizzes or activities
<pleia2> so when the person writes the course, they have it all at their fingertips
<cprofitt> yep
<cprofitt> we also need to provide a high level view
<cprofitt> so we know what should be a 'course' so that it fits in to strands
<cprofitt> for example -- https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Repositories/CommandLine
<cprofitt> is that basic command line
<pleia2> I need to head to bed
<cprofitt> or installing ?
<pleia2> work in less than 8 hours :\
<cprofitt> alright...
<cprofitt> have a good night
<pleia2> thanks for talking :)
<cprofitt> I have a holiday tomorrow
<pleia2> ah, lucky
<cprofitt> yeah for K-12 schedules
<cprofitt> I will try to hash more of this on the list
<cprofitt> we need to set our next meeting date too
<pleia2> next monday evening?
<cprofitt> sounds good...
<pleia2> doodle tells us that sunday and monday evenings are good
<cprofitt> can you take care of posting that to fridge etc...
<cprofitt> I will update the wiki
<cprofitt> and can you change the topic in here...
<cprofitt> my IRC foo is weak
<cprofitt> from lack of practive
* ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-learning to: Ubuntu Community Learning Project | https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Learning | Next Meeting: Monday October 19th @ 7pm EDT (23:00 UTC October 5th) | Support in #ubuntu
<cprofitt> practice
<cprofitt> thanks pleia2
<pleia2> sure thing
<cprofitt> good talking this stuff through
<cprofitt> sorry again for interjecting it late
<cprofitt> summers are rough for me
<cprofitt> but that is no excuse
<pleia2> life happens :)
 * cprofitt nods
<cprofitt> especially with three kids
<cprofitt> go get some sleep pleia2
<cprofitt> thanks again for the discussion
<pleia2> ok, fridge is updated, so is wiki
<pleia2> you too!
<pleia2> night :)
<Zachk18> night pleia2
<cprofitt> night pleia2
<sasa1> need help on ubuntu access root
<cprofitt> hey BiosElement
<BiosElement> Hey there cprofitt
<cprofitt> I do not think I am communicating clearly enough
<cprofitt> hey Vantrax
<BiosElement> Well I don't think any of us are doing very well at communicating so you are not the only one. >.<
<cprofitt> yes...
<cprofitt> I think we need to define a 'framework' and 'glossary'
<cprofitt> so we can work inside that
<cprofitt> do you understand what I was trying to communicate BiosElement ?
<BiosElement> Aye, I basically get the idea and think it's a good one.
<cprofitt> k -- so I will work on redefinition with doctormo
<Vantrax> hi cprofitt, left IR on over night at work again
<cprofitt> IR?
<cprofitt> well Bios just went off
<cprofitt> <BiosElement> Rather we use docbook? ;) Because that's the "standard" for documents.
<cprofitt> <cprofitt> No. I know nothing about docbooks
<cprofitt> <cprofitt> and we are not producing 'documents'
<cprofitt> <cprofitt> we are producing courses and a framework for courses to be developed in
<cprofitt> <cprofitt> BiosElement please refrain from making judgments such as "walled garden" when you have no basis to make that claim
<cprofitt> <cprofitt> in fact I consider it to be insulting
<cprofitt> <cprofitt> though one key part of your sentence is an obvious issue -- we are NOT a document project
<cprofitt> <BiosElement> Well then you have my sincere apoligies for insulting you. I will not bother you any further.
<cprofitt> posted so the log can capture
<cprofitt> Vantrax, I think UCLP is headed for implosion...
<cprofitt> too many people have ONLY their interests in mind... wish to level inflammatory barbs at people when they do not get there way
<cprofitt> bodhi_zazen, you around now... or is it kid time?
<pleia2> cprofitt: I haven't really seen that
<pleia2> part of the reason we have such a diverse board goal-wise so we could work through getting core stuff developed that will fit all areas we're focusing on
<cprofitt> pleia2, we appear to have an issue with even discussing format.
<cprofitt> leveling an accusation of 'walled garden' because I am trying to understand why asciidocs should be required vs. optional is not team work
<pleia2> I thought we already decided that people can develop in moodle and we'd backport to asciidoc?
<pleia2> we want to give people options for how they can write stuff
<cprofitt> That is what I thought...
<cprofitt> I was trying to move along to getting our pre-production settled
<cprofitt> see private for a pastebin
<cprofitt> I then asked if we would 'rip' content from a wiki and convert to asciidoc...
<cprofitt> the answer was yes -- that is not something we talked about...
<cprofitt> and should not be required for a course...
<pleia2> no, the plan is to link to that documentation
<pleia2> hmm
<pleia2> let me read pm
<cprofitt> and unless the wiki team / Canonical has worked out wiki copyright then it might even be a copyright violation
<cprofitt> k
<bodhi_zazen> work time cprofitt
<cprofitt> k
<pleia2> cprofitt: did you have a chance to look at doctormo's courses?
<cprofitt> 10pm EDT a good time bodhi_zazen ?
<cprofitt> pleia2, I was in the middle of looking at the ones in LP and asking questions
<cprofitt> I have looked at several of the ones on his blog though
<bodhi_zazen> yes, but I do not mean to keep you up late
<cprofitt> bodhi_zazen, I am usually a 12am bedtime
<Vantrax> I was under the impression of using asciidoc as the alternate format for offline use
<cprofitt> so 10pm is no issue
<cprofitt> Vantrax, I was under the impression it was an alternate optional format as well.
<bodhi_zazen> 10 pm is a bit early for me, my children are up to 10:30 -10:45 your time
<bodhi_zazen> you can email me if you wish
<cprofitt> ok... I can wait
<pleia2> cprofitt: BiosElement is mistaken with the "ripping documentation from the wiki" comment
<Vantrax> I was not thinking optional, so any course can be done offline
<cprofitt> Vantrax, my concern is that when we have a disagreement over a tool people level accusations which are insulting
<pleia2> we want to link whenever possible (if it's taught in class w/o net, the instructor will just have to print the info, along with everything else)
<cprofitt> Vantrax, I can not see 'forcing' course authors to produce in asciidocs
<Vantrax> no, we would have to have a team to port
<cprofitt> pleia2, -- k -- then I am in line with what you are thinking
<cprofitt> Vantrax, a team porting is fine...
<pleia2> we're not forcing authors to use asciidoc, it's just the team standard because then we can port it to moodle, irc or real life
<cprofitt> as long as we do not burden authors with it...
<cprofitt> and the only part that can go to Moodle is the 'book' type material...
<cprofitt> the questions, quizzes do not transfer -- at least at this time
<pleia2> yeah, irc won't have quizzes
<pleia2> questionable whether real life would
<pleia2> so it's probably ok that they don't transfer
<cprofitt> yep
 * bodhi_zazen reads up
<cprofitt> or real life quizzes would certainly be different
 * pleia2 nods
<pleia2> so my vision is pretty much, core material distributed via asciidoc (class outlines, course overviews, main content and *links to content*
<pleia2> )
<Vantrax> could be the same quizzes, just presented/conducted differently
<pleia2> then each team (real life, irc, and moodle) takes that material and puts it into their format
<pleia2> but there can be a bit of back and forth
<pleia2> if someone is more comfortable writing in moodle, we'll pull their material into the core asciidoc
<pleia2> if someone is more comfortable conducting a class in IRC and dumping brain there, we can work with IRC logs
<pleia2> to put them into asciidoc
<pleia2> honestly I see our (as the UCLP) core function is to orchestrate this
<pleia2> I didn't actually sign up to write classes myself :)
<bodhi_zazen> +1 pleia2
<bodhi_zazen> We need to collaborate with existing teams documentation
<cprofitt> exactly... when we first started it was a major point that we were not producing documentation
<cprofitt> we were building courses
<pleia2> yep
<cprofitt> by using existing documentation (perhaps with a bit of augmentation)
<bodhi_zazen> o/
<cprofitt> go ahead bodhi_zazen
<cprofitt> but what function does asciidoc serve... that is what I am trying to get at...
<bodhi_zazen> It is off topic a bit, but I would echo the sentiment cprofitt mentioned earlier ...
<pleia2> cprofitt: we need a format that we can all collaborate on and has revision control (preferably)
<cprofitt> does the wiki have revision control?
<pleia2> IRC people don't want to learn moodle, moodle people don't want to learn docbook, etc
<bodhi_zazen> I feel there is too much hostility on this project and I for one would like to see people act more maturely
<pleia2> asciidoc was a compromise
<pleia2> +bzr
<pleia2> cprofitt: the benefit of asciidoc is that you can export it to pdf and formats that make that make translations easy
<cprofitt> thanks bodhi_zazen - I was a bit offended at a 'quit' based on the conversation and accusations that I do not want this to be open source... and that I was making it a walled garden
<pleia2> wiki, not so much :(
<cprofitt> ad-hominem attacks are not productive
<bodhi_zazen> I think we need to go back to our core goals
<cprofitt> would .odt be more difficult than asciidoc?
<pleia2> cprofitt: BiosElement has put a ton of work into exploring formats for the team over the past couple months, I suspect you coming in "out of nowhere" and appearing to him to declare all his work moot and moodle the default a bit offensive :(
 * cprofitt slaps head
<cprofitt> yes... I agree bodhi_zazen
<bodhi_zazen> sure we all come from diverse backgrounds, but we are putting together a Moodle project
<pleia2> cprofitt: odt is bad for revision control and translations
<cprofitt> pleia2, as much as that may be... there is no excuse for not explaining it
<cprofitt> I never said his work was moot
<pleia2> cprofitt: odt is there now, but we quickly decided it is not a real solution
<pleia2> cprofitt: I know, I am sure it felt like you did though
<cprofitt> pleia2, I guess that is an issue of maturity then
<cprofitt> as bodhi_zazen said
<cprofitt> and an issue of 'trust' on the team
<pleia2> cprofitt: perhaps, but you did miss a lot of discussions and meetings we've had on this subject
<cprofitt> we are all working for the benefit of Ubuntu and open source
<cprofitt> even when we have a difference of opinion of a lack of understanding it would pay for all of use to remember that
<pleia2> we've already pretty much hashed out reasons for this or that format
<pleia2> now we're having to explain it all again, he felt attacked
<cprofitt> and to assume that we are all on the same team... not working to make things bad
<cprofitt> I have missed them pleia2
<cprofitt> As we have new people come on board we will likely have to explain these things again
<pleia2> I think he's just frustrated that he put a lot of work in, and now a "board member" comes back and says "no, we're not using that!"
<cprofitt> asking for information should not result in an accusation of my turning this in to a walled garden instead of an open source project
<pleia2> yeah
<cprofitt> I never said we are not using it.
<pleia2> but I do understand how he feels
<cprofitt> I said we should not require it
<cprofitt> I understand how he may feel
<cprofitt> my understanding how he feels has little to do with the behavior he exhibited
<cprofitt> nor does it make his behavior productive
<bodhi_zazen> Frankly I think this discussion is a bit silly ^^
<pleia2> yeah, it may have been a little out of line :\
<bodhi_zazen> The information will be on the moodle site
<cprofitt> we need to get to the work of producing a course
<bodhi_zazen> people may develop content however they wish
<bodhi_zazen> and it is not our main focus to figure out how to port or translate it =0
<cprofitt> I think allowing authors to use the 'back-end' they are comfortable with at first helps us get some courses up
<pleia2> cprofitt: +1
<swoody> +1 cprofitt
<cprofitt> heck -- the courses I would build will link mostly to existing wiki articles
<cprofitt> I would not want to be 'forced' to convert that to an asciidoc
<pleia2> I think this is kinda what we agreed upon a couple weeks ago
<cprofitt> perhaps the course outline could be in asciidoc if the wiki does not work
<swoody> I think it would be great to get some work done, and then I think the team will be more focused on the ultimate goal rather than the semantics.
<cprofitt> pleia2, I agree... that is why I was a bit surprised by the conversation bios started
<bodhi_zazen> work - gasp no not work =)
<swoody> haha, well we have to do it sometime, bodhi_zazen ;)
<pleia2> cprofitt: I get the impression he thought you were pushing moodle as the standard
<pleia2> for everyone
<cprofitt> <BiosElement> Because I think moodle's a cruddy platform that gets things "stuck" within it. I tend to think of it more as a tool then a platform personally.
<pleia2> yeah, he doesn't like it, doesn't want to use it
<pleia2> he thought you were going to make him
<cprofitt> <cprofitt> the only real 'difference' I see is that some people are focused on IRC, in-person or other formats
<cprofitt> <cprofitt> the 'binding' format is Moodle.
<cprofitt> <cprofitt> Doc can make his courses using asciidocs, pleia can use .odt, etc
<cprofitt> <cprofitt> what format the author prefers should not matter currently...
<cprofitt> <BiosElement> And that format I have to respectfully disagree with. Which is why I'm working on a system that everyone can agree with.
<cprofitt> I think I was pretty clear that the author can use the format they want
<cprofitt> UCLP will produce courses for Moodle.
<cprofitt> those Moodle courses may have several IRC sessions
<cprofitt> or they may have only an IRC open time with the teacher
<cprofitt> or they might be all self-paced
<pleia2> well, UCLP will produce courses for moodle, courses for IRC and courses for real life classrooms
<cprofitt> I honestly do not recall the real life classrooms being in our original mission
<pleia2> honestly we've had more demand for net-less classroom teaching thus far
<pleia2> cprofitt: that's what doctormo has been doing all along :) he's already teaching in real life classrooms
<pleia2> ubuntu pennsylvania is gearing up for some too
<pleia2> that's part of why I got involved
<pleia2> so maybe you don't recall it, but it certainly has aways been there, that's why doctormo is on the team
<cprofitt> pleia2, I understand that...
<cprofitt> the original mission statement was a bit vague
<cprofitt> We intend to do this by working with existing teams to build and maintain an interactive learning environment(s) to support teaching all aspects of the Ubuntu Ecosystem that will allow the community to undertake self paced and instructor lead teaching in conjunction with IRC based training, question times, challenges, and other interactive teaching methods.
<cprofitt> it was just how I 'viewed' it
<pleia2> that's because we were covering so much ground and didn't want to focus on one medium too much (because we have 3 distinct mediums)
<cprofitt> as a question...
<cprofitt> will there be some courses that will not be converted from in-person to Moodle?
#ubuntu-learning 2009-10-13
<cprofitt> will there be IRC courses that have no Moodle component?
<cprofitt> I can live with a yes to both of those... just looking for clarity
<pleia2> as I explained above, we want core material that will be used everywhere
<pleia2> we can all follow the same basic course outlines, regardless of format
<cprofitt> but in some cases the 'core' material already exists...
<cprofitt> Moodle will just 'link to it' and create exercises... quizzes...
<pleia2> sorry, I thought I explained
<cprofitt> so asciidocs will just be a course outline...
<pleia2> core material is outlines, content and links to content, etc
<cprofitt> what needs to be covered... resources... etc.
<pleia2> right
<cprofitt> that paints things in a different light...
<cprofitt> but if a Moodle course author wants to create a course in Moodle they will not be compelled to produce the outline in asciidoc
<cprofitt> it will be converted by a UCLP team
<pleia2> right
<pleia2> we can try to convince them to convert it to asciidoc so the whole team can use it :) but they won't be required to, we can pick that up
<cprofitt> and there may be an IRC class that has an 'outline' but no Moodle component?
<pleia2> if no one writes the moodle component, there won't be one
<cprofitt> or an in person class that has an 'outline' but no Moodle component
<pleia2> it's going to be up to the teams to take the asciidoc outlines and put them into their format
<cprofitt> right... so if doc, who wants in-person classes, writes a course outline he will do it in asciidoc, but someone else would have to use his outline for a Moodle course
<pleia2> that's the idea, I am not sure I like your "have to" though
<pleia2> the core docs and such are collaborative, we all work on the core, we all draw from that pool
<cprofitt> I did not mean to imply have to... they could not use his outline
<cprofitt> but if they wanted 'his' course in Moodle they would use his outline
<pleia2> yeah, they could not, but at that point why be involved with us at all?
<pleia2> the idea here is to collaborate on all fronts to create greate courses
<cprofitt> so my 'have to' was not meant in the way you took it... it was more of a 'this makes sense' thing
<pleia2> ah, gotcha
<cprofitt> it would be kinda 'stupid' to want docs course and not use his outline
<cprofitt> sorry for the mis-communication there
<cprofitt> bodhi_zazen, you still following?
<pleia2> I kinda see wiki+asciidoc to be were we do much of the collaboration
<pleia2> s/were/where
<bodhi_zazen> a little
<pleia2> cprofitt: you have good points though, we should rely upon the wiki more
<cprofitt> k... just curious if that made sense to you...
<cprofitt> it does to me.
<cprofitt> let me try to summarize what I am now understanding... note: I could be wrong
<bodhi_zazen> pleia2: I think our core material should be on the Ubuntu wiki
<cprofitt> A)  Course ideas, content links, etc will be gathered on a wiki
<pleia2> bodhi_zazen: so toss out asciidoc and bzr entirely?
<bodhi_zazen> Yes
<cprofitt> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BeginnersTeam/FocusGroups/Education/Resources
<bodhi_zazen> we should organize the wiki information into coherent chunks
<bodhi_zazen> and course outlines
<pleia2> bodhi_zazen: so how do we handle translations and easy exports to pdf and other formats?
<bodhi_zazen> course Desktop
<bodhi_zazen> Objective : foo bar
<bodhi_zazen> Wiki pages : 1,2,3
<bodhi_zazen> Questions / self assessment
<cprofitt> educators call it a rubric
<bodhi_zazen> people use questions to see if they "understand" the material
<bodhi_zazen> something like that
<cprofitt> I still want to summarize what my understanding of what pleia was looking at...
<pleia2> cprofitt: sorry, go ahead :)
<cprofitt> A) Course ideas, content links, etc will be on the wiki....
<bodhi_zazen> we probably need to generate things more like courses, course objectives, lists of wiki pages, etc
<cprofitt> B) Course outlines -- would be in ascii doc
<cprofitt> C) courses themselves would then either be printed, in IRC, or on Moodle
<bodhi_zazen> we contribute back by generating wiki pages or improving wiki pages or at least working with the wiki team
<pleia2> cprofitt: pretty much
<cprofitt> bodhi_zazen, I agree...
<cprofitt> from what I am gathering no actual course information is in asciidoc
<pleia2> course outlines would be more fleshed out, so we could immediately export them to pdf for live classroom use, for instance
<cprofitt> just the rubric
<pleia2> or drop them into a moodle book
<hal14450> cprofitt, while i'm here i'd like to offer a sip account to anyone else that needs one if you want to do another conference call that way it doesn't cost me anything
<bodhi_zazen> We can tell the wiki team, biased on feed back from our desktop course, people would like to see the following improvements on page xyz
<pleia2> asciidoc can be exported to pdf, so can easily be put into moodle
<pleia2> err
<pleia2> s/pdf/html
<hal14450> just pm me if one is needed
<bodhi_zazen> or people really liked the format of page abc, use it more
<cprofitt> thanks hal14450
<bodhi_zazen> so we need a feedback mechanism
<hal14450> yw
<cprofitt> pleia2, but unless I am mistaken nothing we have discussed being in the asciidoc would go in to Moodle
<cprofitt> I think it might help to have one complete course -- as an example...
<pleia2> cprofitt: now I'm confused :) I thought course outlines would go into moodle..?
<pleia2> when we discuss course outlines, I kinda have in mind what doctormo has already produced
<pleia2> all of that stuff can be dumped into moodle as html almost as-is
<cprofitt> http://learn.ufbt.net/course/view.php?id=9
<cprofitt> that is a rough outline in Moodle
<cprofitt> with not content linked in yet
<pleia2> I understand
<cprofitt> is that what you are referring too?
<pleia2> are you saying doctormo's current material can't be put into that format in moodle? I don't understand why not
<pleia2> it seems pretty much the same
<cprofitt> pleia2, I am not saying it can't be
<pleia2> ok, why wouldn't it be?
<cprofitt> certainly a person could both do the outline and actual course in asciidoc
<cprofitt> but what we had discussed is the outline would be in asciidoc
<cprofitt> http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~williamchambers/ubuntu-learning-materials/asciidocformat/annotate/4/systems-admin/book.txt
<pleia2> as I said, the outline would be more than what you have in that moodle course
<cprofitt> that content there appears to have an outline and some content
<pleia2> it would be a fleshed out course, ready to put into moodle or be printed
<pleia2> yes, content and links to content
<pleia2> 19:10:49 < cprofitt> C) courses themselves would then either be printed, in IRC, or on Moodle <-- I see this as minimal tweaks to core fleshed out outlines, only done to get it put into the proper format
<cprofitt> yes...
<pleia2> so A is the information gathering stage
<cprofitt> so in the case of a course for printing the content, outline, links, etc... would be in asciidoc
<pleia2> B is the course development stage
<pleia2> C is where we port the material to different formats
<cprofitt> but in the case of a Moodle course the outline would be in asciidoc and the content, links, quizzes, etc... would be in Moodle
<cprofitt> if another person wanted to 'pull' the Moodle content and links they could do so
 * pleia2 sighs
<cprofitt> but the author of the Moodle course would not be required to put it in asciidoc
<cprofitt> right?
<pleia2> I don't understand where we arent communicating here
<cprofitt> I do not either...
<cprofitt> but it is likely because we have no 'complete' example
<Vantrax> one point I would like to make, only rely on links in the ubuntu ecosystem
<Vantrax> if its outside that i would rather replicate it
<pleia2> sure, we'll allow people to skip B and go right to developing things themselves in Moodle, since requiring them to use asciidoc is a barrier to entry
<pleia2> the team can pull it from C back into B for collboration, improvement and redistribution to other formats
<cprofitt> so what do we do with this type of resource pleia2  - https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Beginners/BashScripting
<Vantrax> So wiki.ubuntu.com/sometopic or help.ubunt is a good link, we have some degree of control and know it will be maintained, but external sites might not be
<pleia2> but I want it to be clear that we're offering this option as an easy to entry, and that it means the course developer won't get the benefits of collaboration
<cprofitt> that wiki appears to cross some of what is in docs course I just linked
<cprofitt> do we pull that wiki in to an asciidoc... or just use the wiki
<pleia2> cprofitt: we'd link to it...
<pleia2> no, we don't pull anything from the wiki into asciidoc
<cprofitt> so any improvement would be done directly in the wiki
<pleia2> right
<cprofitt> and the asciidoc would only contain the 'goals' 'introduction' and a link to that wiki
<pleia2> whatever we write in the courses will be written because we're trying to teach it, we're not rewriting reference material
<cprofitt> but some of what was in docs course is in this wiki...
<pleia2> cprofitt: I guess I'm confused, it seems like you're saying moodle will not be linked, it'll be pulling wiki content into moodle
<pleia2> I don't understand
<cprofitt> that is why I was asking...
<Vantrax> I think wiki is background information, or relevent helpful information in understanding
<Vantrax> I think Moodle should be on how to apply information to make it knowledge
<cprofitt> no, Moodle would link people to this wiki article
<pleia2> right, docs course stuff probably needs to be fixed to point to more already existing resources
<cprofitt> just like giving a student a reading assignment
<cprofitt> then the Moodle course would given them questions to check for understanding
<pleia2> cprofitt: ok, so asciidoc will link to the wiki, moodle will link tothe wiki, what are we arguing about?
<cprofitt> we are not arguing...
<pleia2> sorry, where is the misunderstanding?
<Vantrax> not just questions cp, further information, tips on application to try and build understanding
<cprofitt> I am trying to understand the process that developed while I was not able to attend meetings
<pleia2> docs courses need to leverage the wiki more, I agree
<cprofitt> Vantrax, yes... if that is there.
<cprofitt> pleia2, I am not poking at things for argument...
<cprofitt> I am just honestly trying to piece things together
<Vantrax> I always thought moodle was a place where everything comes together
<pleia2> ok
<cprofitt> Vantrax, from what pleia2 said it will not be...
<pleia2> Vantrax: sure, if you're teaching in a classroom with internet, or in independent study
<Vantrax> use of information on the wiki, help, and asciidoc as well in a combined format
<cprofitt> for on-line Moodle courses it will be
<pleia2> Vantrax: but that is not the case for all our avenues :)
<pleia2> we have netless classroom courses, we have irc courses
<cprofitt> for off-line in-person courses or IRC courses Moodle may not be used at all
 * pleia2 nods
<Vantrax> the export file 'asciidoc' would be the way for people to use the content offline
 * pleia2 sighs
<pleia2> I give up for now
<pleia2> I'll come back later to talk about this
<cprofitt> in some cases the asciidoc would be rather useless for off-line courses if it links to too many on-line resources
<Vantrax> which would duplicated relevant information from moodle and wiki, else im not sure how people could use it offline
<cprofitt> pleia2, ok... sorry it is frustrating
<cprofitt> Vantrax, no...
<cprofitt> the asciidoc will not contain the wiki content
<cprofitt> it would just contain the link information
<pleia2> cprofitt: I'm sorry too, I just feel like I'm explaining the same thing for the 2nd time today (and probably 10th time in the past couple weeks)
<pleia2> and I'm tired from work all day :)
<cprofitt> so exporting the asciidoc would not really fill an off-line course
<cprofitt> the wiki would have to be printed as well...
<cprofitt> pleia2, no skin off of my nose
<cprofitt> I appreciate you being willing to help me understand
 * pleia2 cracks open beer and enjoys some QT with the television <3
<pleia2> of course :)
<cprofitt> Vantrax, do you follow that?
<Vantrax> I think that is the problem or limitation with 'offline' you would have to print alot of resources not intended for that
<cprofitt> true... but that would be the responsibility of the course author
<cprofitt> I actually think this could work... as a concept...
<cprofitt> though I think the Canonical interpretation of what we were doing (as well as mine) was different based on our early focus on Moodle
<cprofitt> if we truly just become an agent to organize a course...
<cprofitt> then the method of delivery becomes a non-issue
<cprofitt> it seems as though we do not develop full courses... but blueprints for doing so...
<Vantrax> I would like to see us do both...
<pleia2> real quick, then I'll stop talking for real - I agree with Vantrax, we do both, but I come from the Ubuntu Classroom project where I found talent and had them do classes
<pleia2> this project, for me, was a larger extension of that
<pleia2> we find smart people, they write courses, we make them blueprints for use elsewhere
<cprofitt> +1 pleia2
<cprofitt> Vantrax, I would like to do both...
<cprofitt> but we may only hit one of three methods in the initial course
<pleia2> yeah, but the goal is grander :)
<cprofitt> and then, through that, create a blueprint for authors to make a course for the other delivery methods
<pleia2> we don't have to reach the goal right away, but it's the dream
 * pleia2 x-files &
<cprofitt> don't lie to me is what I am watching tonight
 * Vantrax is at work >.<
<cprofitt> on Tuesday no less
<cprofitt> I am still here in Monday
<cprofitt> your part of the world is just 'fast'
<doctormo> pleia2, cprofitt, Vantrax, someone explain to me what's going on, why have I just had a contributor to this project walk away?
<cprofitt> doctormo, my opinion or just the log?
<Vantrax> ???
<Vantrax> who walked away
<doctormo> cprofitt: Both please
<pleia2> yikes, he left over it?
<doctormo> Vantrax: BiosElement,
<pleia2> mostly a it was a misunderstanding, cprofitt and I hashed through a lot of it this evening
<doctormo> I didn't think there was anything to go through to be honest
<doctormo> I know there is a narrow minded push towards moodle only development, but I figured we could work around that and actually get something working where by non-moodlites could be involved.
<doctormo> So this is why I'm asking: What happened
<pleia2> yep, that's what we discussed, general workflow
<cprofitt> here you go doctormo - http://pastebin.com/d3a443943
<Vantrax> Basically, no one is required to work in asciidoc, but we are wanting to have everything replicated into asciidoc for offline/classroom etc
<pleia2> BiosElement left before this whole discussion though
<cprofitt> doctormo, there is no 'narrow minded' push towards anything
<cprofitt> but there is a lot of using 'negative' terms to demean certain contributors to the project
<doctormo> cprofitt: If you were at the last meeting, it was pretty much a brow beating, it wasn't a dicussion at all.
<cprofitt> we could really remember that we are all on the same team... there may be a lack of understanding on some people's parts
<cprofitt> but there is not narrow mindedness
<cprofitt> nor is there any effort to 'garden wall' the project
<cprofitt> I was here the last meeting -- I am pretty sure I was the person running it
<doctormo> cprofitt: I speak of perception, don't read into it.
<cprofitt> the problem is that using terms like narrow mindedness is an ad-hominem attack
<cprofitt> it does nothing but create a negative atmoshpere
<cprofitt> and bears no fruit that is edible
<cprofitt> as to my opinion why bioselement left -- lack of maturity
<cprofitt> but mind you that is just my opinion
<doctormo> Do you think they are my words? I told you not to read into it
<cprofitt> I am not reading in to it -- regardless of who owns the words they are counter-productive
<Vantrax> doctormo, he didnt, relax:P
<Vantrax> we are all friends here
<doctormo> We are, I've had a hard weekend having attacks thrown at me from gnome people, man do they hate Ubuntu.
 * pleia2 hugs doctormo 
<cprofitt> gnomes... just tell them Orcs are on the way to their homes
<Vantrax> lol
<Vantrax> yeah, the gnome people are very nasty
<Vantrax> they think Ubuntu stole their users..
 * doctormo reads "<cprofitt> as is .docx" and blinks
<cprofitt> well... .docx is a standard... never said a good one
<Vantrax> lol
<Vantrax> its not really a standard...
<Vantrax> there was the really dodgy bribed vote that made it one
<Vantrax> that is getting looked into now and will probably be overturned
<cprofitt> I hope so...
<cprofitt> I hope the i4i company gets another verdict in their favor too.
<doctormo> OK so, firstly cprofitt, I do take issue with you calling into question BiosElement's maturity. Nothing in the way that logged conversation was handled was out of bounds, insulting or other wise derogitory.
<doctormo> BiosElement is and was a great contributor, he did a lot of research to figure out the best ways of ammadating the majority of people. I can't just forget his contributions and his good manners, if anything I think you were more out of line to call him out of line. If we as imperfect human beings can't make incorrect judgements and be corrected, then we are damned anyway.
<cprofitt> doctormo, the conversation is not why I drew the maturity conclusion
<cprofitt> the leaving over it is
<doctormo> s/ammadating/accommodating/
<cprofitt> There was no need for him to say we were 'garden walling' the project
<doctormo> Are we not?
<doctormo> He need or lack of is not in question, that is not insulting.
<doctormo> I don't understand where you can find an insult in there, even if you disagree with his view.
<cprofitt> explain how it is Garden Walled
<cprofitt> I was merely trying to figure out how all this stuff is 'fitting' together
<cprofitt> NO where in the conversation did I throw a wall up...
<Vantrax> the focus on moodle and moodles lack of easy exportability might have been his point
<Vantrax> just guessin, I wasnt there
<doctormo> And what if you did or didn't, it's not about what BiosElement's goddly powers set down as the right and wrongs of the universe. You gotta accept people's opinions without flipping out that it's insulting you.
<cprofitt> doctormo, did I leave the conversation
<cprofitt> doctormo, did I leave the project?
<cprofitt> he could have said -- sorry I did not mean it that way... or he could have explained it
<cprofitt> I still would like to know how I was building a walled garden...
<doctormo> cprofitt: I don't think he should have to fight you on that, you can call into question his logic, but not his freedom to be wrong in the first place.
<cprofitt> how did I call in to question his freedom?
<cprofitt> or do I not have the same right to be 'wrong' as you put it?
<doctormo> <cprofitt> in fact I consider it to be insulting
<cprofitt> and how does my considering something to be insulting inhibit freedom?
<doctormo> I would consider it to be worse to call into question someones motives regarding their behviour than it is to question a group's archatectual direction.
<cprofitt> I was not calling in to question his motives... I was calling in to question his choice of 'words'
<cprofitt> doctormo, I can understand you are upset he chose to leave.
<cprofitt> I can appreciate that your emotional response is to blame me
<cprofitt> but I think it is incorrect to blame me.
<doctormo> I'm actually concerned that as a community leader your not living up to the code of being even more respectful of contributors and people who are not as privilaged to be sitting on the board of a project.
<doctormo> I don't think it's good treatment to say that something that boring is insulting.
<cprofitt> I respectfully disagree with you.
<cprofitt> pleia2, are you here?
<doctormo> We will have to agree to disagree.
<cprofitt> I think it now goes deeper sir
<cprofitt> as you have leveled a very serious charge in my eyes
<doctormo> If you insist on it.
<pleia2> I think it was all a misunderstanding that got out of hand, we all have put a lot of work into this and it hurts when we feel like our work is ignored (whether or not that is the intention)
<cprofitt> yes, but doctormo has leveled a very serious accusation against me
<cprofitt> <doctormo> I'm actually concerned that as a community leader your not living up to the code of being even more respectful of contributors and people who are not as privilaged to be sitting on the board of a project.
<pleia2> I think you're both reading too much into specific words and blowing things a bit out of proportion
<cprofitt> while I can understand he is emotional about this right now - I would not want to take such a charge lightly
<cprofitt> as certainly one should not be tossed around so easily
<doctormo> cprofitt, do you not find it ironic that you of all people should talk about restraint of tossing around such things?
<cprofitt> No, but please explain why you do.
<doctormo> My reasons for doubting you lie squarly on your over reaction.
<cprofitt> You have been full of accusations and extremely short on actually giving me an explanation
<pleia2> I think we all need to back off for a bit and get our goals straight and have a calm discussion
<pleia2> that isn't going to happen tonight
<cprofitt> I have no problems having a calm discussion tonight... but later can work as well.
<swoody> As a completely unbiased fly-on-the-wall I have to agree with pleia2 here
<cprofitt> I certainly would prefer to not have things be emotionally charged
<swoody> I think emotions are running high, and things are not going to get any better in this manner
<swoody> I think after letting this cool, maybe we can become a team again? Re-focus on the real goals of this project, and put aside our differences of opinion for the greater good of the team.
<pleia2> even I'm getting upset over this, and I'm a pretty calm person :)
<swoody> pleia2, a glass of wine helps ;)
<pleia2> swoody: beer is more my style, and did that earlier when I started to get upset ;)
<pleia2> now I'm back and happy again!
<swoody> pleia2, well a good brew works, too :)
<doctormo> Now I will attempt to get BiosElement back on side, he won't help us if we're only using moodle for development, in fact he won't help us if he thinks people will be creating deltas in moodle. So it'll going to be a one in a million bet he'll want to stay.
<swoody> doctormo and cprofitt I hope you don't mind me intervening in this nature, but I do feel it would be the best course of action to all take a deep breath, and take a look at this with un-stressed eyes. Do you agree?
<pleia2> doctormo: we aren't only using moodle
<cprofitt> doctormo, no where did I say only Moodle.
<cprofitt> swoody - I do not mind.
<doctormo> pleia2: I know, but perception is often the evil of clarity.
<pleia2> doctormo: I agree
<pleia2> can you guys give me some time to draft up a document about what cprofitt and I discussed this afternoon?
<cprofitt> clarity is gained through asking questions - as I have been trying to do... not leaving the team.
<pleia2> I think it will clear up a lot of questions about workflow and contribution vector options
<cprofitt> pleia2, I hope so...
<cprofitt> it is still a little murky to me, but I can understand it a bit better.
<cprofitt> the real issue seems to be three 'methods' of delivery
<pleia2> yeah, It's the murkyness that's getting everyone upset
<cprofitt> which have little in common with each other
<doctormo> cprofitt: Don't think bad of him loosing his will to remain, he was on the edge after the meeting.
<cprofitt> so we need to really define the common part.
<cprofitt> I will not think bad of him doctormo
<cprofitt> I actually like to help people 'grow'
<doctormo> So you no longer think he's immature to quit as he did?
<cprofitt> and have done so with many people in the BT
<pleia2> doctormo: I didn't realize he was ever on edge :(
<cprofitt> thinking a person is immature does not mean I think badly of him
<cprofitt> it means he needs to gaine wisdom
<cprofitt> I am guessing he is under 25 - potentially under 21
<cprofitt> and I understand that when I was that age I would have had absolutely no comprehension that I lacked any maturity
<doctormo> cprofitt: No, it means you think he needs to gain wisdom... not quite the same absolute.
<cprofitt> I also understand that maturity is not always connected with age
<cprofitt> could be tied up in semantics doctormo
<cprofitt> for me maturity and wisdom are very closely related...
<pleia2> I think this is the wrong discussion to have right now
<doctormo> I actually thought he was quite mature, he didn't vent his fustrations emotionally, he didn't insult anyone or send some moppy message. Fairly adult.
<cprofitt> I will cease at pleia2's request and swoody's suggestion as well.
<pleia2> I'll try to finish a workflow draft based on discussions earlier and post it to the list
<pleia2> hopefully tonight
<doctormo> pleia2: I'm thinking we may have a two step process, considering cprofitt's point in the log about using external references, I think that shaping courses and organising classes are one set of goals and the other is writing materials. I wonder if it would be good to section these two off. what i don't want is an undefined mess of uncollaberation where everyone is using their own tools to do things just so we can develop things in
<doctormo> moodle. A flexibility here might be bad for structure.
<pleia2> doctormo: essentially what we discussed had 3 parts (I'll flesh this out in the email):
<pleia2> A) Collaborative discussion and outlining on the wiki
<doctormo> pleia2: wonderful, I look forward to it.
<pleia2> B) Further development and fleshing out in bzr+asciidoc for documents that can then be used as core materialfor live classes, irc and moodle
<pleia2> C) Putting said material from B into those formats - live classes, irc, moodle
<pleia2> now, the issue that is upsetting people is ease of contribution
<pleia2> so we want to allow for someone to give an IRC session from material outlined in the wiki, but maybe they don't want to/don't have the time to formally put it in asciidoc - they're too busy being a brilliant kernel hacker
<pleia2> same goes for someone who may want to do development in moodle, or just give us notes from a real life class they gave
<pleia2> it's all very valuable stuff, so even if they skip step B, it can be our job to collect these great resources and put them into asciidoc
<pleia2> but I think we want to make it clear that our process is A, B, C - and that method is the best for the project and will gain most collaboration and usefulness
<doctormo> Seems very well thought out.
<pleia2> if you choose to directly go from A to C, we'll allow it because we want to see good material come in and the project grow, but it's not the ideal in the perfect world
<cprofitt> I also want to understand how a Moodle course will benefit from asciidocs -- at this point I do not understand it
<cprofitt> I see how an in-person format does
<cprofitt> and how it allows us flexibility
<pleia2> it's taking the vague wiki outline of A and putting it into something more professional, that can be exported as .html and imported into moodle
<cprofitt> but in some cases the material in the asciidoc might just be no more than an outline - and links; right?
<pleia2> in some cases, yes
<cprofitt> so in some cases the asciidoc will not be sufficient to really produce an in-person course
<cprofitt> because there will be no content there...
<pleia2> the instructor is given links to the material
<cprofitt> in that case the 'linked' material will have to be printed as well
<pleia2> it's "there"
<pleia2> there is hardly a difference between printing a wiki page and copying the wiki page into an asciidoc and printing it
<pleia2> this is where C comes in, each group will need to mold the material for their needs
<cprofitt> but we would not just copy it... that would be what the off-line course writer would do - right?
<pleia2> we never just copy the wiki page
<cprofitt> k
<pleia2> I think that's something the offline course writer will have to determine, how best to ship wiki pages with courses
<pleia2> er, offline course writer team
<doctormo> I think there is a real discussion about how self contained courses ort to be,
<doctormo> I didn't like writing a course which referenced material as a part of the core learning objectives, I always considered links to be extras, learn more, extra credit.
<cprofitt> doctormo, in our original charter -- we wanted to work with existing teams and existing content
<doctormo> We do, and that is
<cprofitt> that is why the idea, at least for me, is to not replicate wiki pages
<doctormo> Some of this material is not documentation, some of it is has ended up in other projects because of a lack of a format course writing project.
<cprofitt> but have them refer to them as reading material...
<cprofitt> and then add value to that by developing exercises... and putting together a series of wiki pages to make a meaningful course
<doctormo> We shouldn't think that the wiki page is the correct place for all materials just because it was written there first, it may be that we need to talk with the authors and consider it more carefully.
<cprofitt> so I would not include that material in my Moodle course or in an asciidoc
<cprofitt> I am not saying it is a correct place for 'all' materials
<cprofitt> just that if one exists then we should use it
<cprofitt> and not feel as though we need to reproduced it
<doctormo> Perhaps we do anyway,
<pleia2> maybe discussing actual examples would be a better approach
<doctormo> Wiki pages are often wirtten in a way that seems to be different in format and pacing to learning materials.
<pleia2> and do this at a meeting later
<pleia2> cprofitt: maybe you flesh out some moodle stuff with how you'll be incorporating wiki links into coursework?
<cprofitt> that is what I made those two pages for pleia2
<pleia2> doctormo: maybe you show some examples where wiki pages are written as reference material and are not suitable for learning?
<cprofitt> I was having problems explaining it... so wanted to create an actual reference course or two
<pleia2> then we come back and collaborate
<pleia2> cprofitt: yeah, I think that's what we want to do
<cprofitt> I really think some of this is being lost in a lack of understanding... and concrete examples would help
 * pleia2 nods
<doctormo> Example1, documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LDAPAuthentication
<pleia2> doctormo: can we do this later, when you both have examples prepared?
<pleia2> otherwise this discussion ends up kinda one-sided
<doctormo> pleia2: I didn't think this was a contest of some kind, I figured It's just for clairty.
<pleia2> doctormo: well, I'm backing off for the evening
<doctormo> Aye ok, I think this day has runit's course and it's not produced much.
<doctormo> Hey BiosElement
<doctormo> Did you hear I spend the weekend at the Gnome Summit at MIT?
<doctormo> There was a guy at the Gnome Summit who was very interested in what we're doing
<doctormo> I think he works for Sun, but does stuff on Gnome
<doctormo> He does accessability
<doctormo> So he was wondering if since we make courses for Ubuntu, some of them would be useful to gnome. And thus might be ready in a position to be made accessable.
<Brady> italian?
<pleia2> english
<pleia2> #ubuntu-it ?
<Brady> yes  ubuntu
<Brady> only english?
<ibuclaw> Brady, you mean what languages ubuntu is in?
<ibuclaw> afaik, it's a good 42+
<ibuclaw> from Africaan to Zulu
<Brady> or a problem with the use of the terminal, when I write in terminal sudo asking for the password but does not make me
<Brady> exscusme for my english but i usit the traslation tools of firefox
<pleia2> Brady: try asking in #ubuntu-it
<Brady> ok thanks
<swoody> Good morning everyone :)
<pleia2> g'day swoody
<swoody> g'day to you too pleia2 :)
<swoody> how're you doing today?
<doctormo> Hey swoody
<pleia2> swoody: good! you?
 * doctormo congratulates pleia2 on negotiating a peace treaty last night.
<swoody> hello doctormo :)
<swoody> pleia2, oh, I can't complain.... wait, yes I can - no coffee yet :(
<pleia2> doctormo: thanks, I hope it works out (do I get a pre-emptive nobel now?)
<pleia2> swoody: oh! coffee is very important
<doctormo> pleia2: Harmony first, nobel peace prize later
<swoody> pleia2, indeed :)
<swoody> doctormo, so how's your day treating you?
<doctormo> It's not been treating me very long actually, and even then the treat has dark chocolate with nuts in it, and I hate nuts.
<swoody> doctormo, well the dark chocolate sounds great though :)
#ubuntu-learning 2009-10-14
 * cprofitt waves
<pleia2> evening cprofitt
<cprofitt> hope you slept well pleia2
<cprofitt> and your beer did not make your head ache in the morning
<pleia2> sure did, thanks
<pleia2> nah, I just had one :)
<ZachK_> hey pleia2
<pleia2> evening, ZachK_
<ZachK_> and how are you doing pleia2?
<pleia2> doing good, you?
<ZachK_> i'm fine
<ZachK_> pleia2, so....how's the council thing going?
<pleia2> busy, good
<ZachK_> pleia2, nice
<ZachK_> missed a meeting this morning
<pleia2> a meeting?
<ZachK_> yeah
<ZachK_> asia oceanic board meeting
<pleia2> ah
<ZachK_> it started at five...i got up around that itme
#ubuntu-learning 2009-10-15
 * pleia2 waves to Saj0577 
<Saj0577> hey pleia2
<pleia2> Saj0577 is going to help us with some of our dev and contributing stuff :)
<Saj0577> pleia2: so now i just sort out my group and then we go from there yeah?
 * Saj0577 needs to add this channel to autojoin
<pleia2> Saj0577: yep!
<pleia2> Saj0577: once you're ready, feel free to drop a note to the mailing list describing what you want to cover and introducing your team
<pleia2> or we can just work informally here and on the wiki for now ;)
<Saj0577> okays. here is good i not to good with the emailing lists i read and reply but creating a message like a whole new realm for me lol
<pleia2> yeah, I understand
<Saj0577> So should i put my name on those wikis now just so people know you think?
<pleia2> yep, that's fine
<pleia2> we all just kinda jump in, when someone wants to work on something we work with others who have signed up to do things
<Saj0577> okays. right i will work on getting the team sorted and then we are sorted
<pleia2> sounds good :)
<Saj0577> right well its 0230 here so going to grab some sleep, but if need me or anything crops up just leave me a pm
<pleia2> will do
<Saj0577> take care everyone
<Vantrax> ahh crap, found a MASSIVE bug in karmic...
<Vantrax> oi pleia2 do you know if they test the new releases in organisations at all...
<cprofitt> what is the massive bug?
<Vantrax> if you have a valid userbase of say 3k users (like I do) guess how many user options show up in the login.
<cprofitt> 3K
<Vantrax> and you cant change the login to do the normal username/password query
<cprofitt> ... that kills it
<cprofitt> wow...
<Vantrax> yep
<Vantrax> Massive bug
<cprofitt> that is a major screw up
<Vantrax> yep
<doctormo> Vantrax: That's a fairly bad bug
<cprofitt> sounds more like a feature miss... more than a bug
<Vantrax> worked it out today
<doctormo> That says to me that the designers were down a coal mine thinking the design up.
<doctormo> Oh come on, even I could consider the effects of user lists on ldap networks.
<Vantrax> its a great idea, but it lacks the feature/design flexibility of the old version
<cprofitt> is it an issue with Karmic or the 'piece' used?
<Vantrax> its a GDM issue
<Vantrax> its kinda like the old fast user switching applet issues, but you could disable the applet
<Vantrax> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/gdm/+bug/451824/
<Vantrax> i logged it
<Vantrax> ive been hitting up the gnome docco, but still no luck finding a way to force a standard login
<Vantrax> hrm, i might have a way to hack it in there
<Vantrax> BOOO
<Vantrax> you can hack it in from gconf-tool2
<Vantrax> but no menu way to do it
<Vantrax> eww.. but it looks nasty
<Vantrax> so much for gnome being all customisation friendly...
<cprofitt> I guess you have to use KDE?
<Vantrax> no... i just have to recode...
<Vantrax> KDE is even nastier for large scale deployment
<Vantrax> harder to lock down
<cprofitt> ah
 * Vantrax cries
<swoody> what's wrong Vantrax ?
<Vantrax> GDM rewrite messed alot of things up
<swoody> ah, that stinks :(
<Vantrax> no kidding
<Vantrax> I have to develop an SOE based on it.
<swoody> :/
<doctormo> Vantrax: This issue is of interest to me too, since I'll be doing an ldap logon as a showcase for the SETC.
<Vantrax> ive got a workaround, it just doesnt look that nice
<Vantrax> Ill let you go through my build docco when its done
<Vantrax> Im using AD  instead of NDS now tho
<Vantrax> afk getting food
<doctormo> NDS?
<Vantrax> Novell Directory Services
<doctormo_> Thanks Vantrax
<Saj0577> hey all
<pleia2> g'day Saj0577
<doctormo> hey pleia2, Saj0577
<Saj0577> hey pleia2 irssi giving me trouble :(
<Saj0577> hey doctormo
<pleia2> Saj0577: aw, what's it doing?
<Saj0577> pleia2: just keeps causing myy computer to lose connection. nothig else is losing connection :S
<pleia2> :\
<pleia2> weird
<Saj0577> yeah nvm
<Saj0577> hows everyone today?
<doctormo> I've downloaded 200 TED talks, I'll go through them over the next few weeks :-)
<pleia2> doctormo: hehe, nice
<Saj0577> pleia2: just a little update i think th Fg will be sorted by end of tomorrow to start work just on doing some wiki pages then going to ask all previous members if sill want to help and get new members
<pleia2> Saj0577: great! I'm actually busy this weekend at a conference, but others in the team will be happy to help out
<Saj0577> pleia2: you know you said there are 4 main people runnign it who are th eother 3 just so i know :)
<doctormo> Saj0577: This project?
<pleia2> Saj0577: 5, doctormo, bodhi_zazen, cprofitt and Vantrax
<Saj0577> okays cheers.
<pleia2> doctormo: Saj0577 is working to rally the beginners team education group to start work on dev and advocacy courses
<doctormo> The board members are doctormo, bodhi_zazen, cprofitt and Vantrax and pleia2 and active people beyond that are BiosElement, paultag and c-quel. There may be some more I'm missing.
<doctormo> Saj0577: Rally the loCo teams to help you with the Advocacy courses if you can, they'll have lots of good input.
<Saj0577> doctormo: yeah im planning o doing so :) just at the minute getting all my ground work sorted then hopefully late tonight and tomorrow i can start talking and getting in touch with people
<doctormo> Best thing I've found fromt he sys admin course is asking people to help organise the topics wiki page, and then working fromt hat to develop classes. Each class can later be organised into a format course, just so long as they're not too interdependant.
<Saj0577> okay
<Saj0577> quick question anyone around?
<RanDom33> I am interested in the Ubuntu Community Learning Project
<Saj0577> hey RanDom33 what you interested in helping of doing a coruse?
<RanDom33> Saj0577, No, I am interested in learning more about ubuntu
<RanDom33> Saj0577, I would do a course if I knew enough to teach one.
<Saj0577> RanDom33: okays. What area you interested in learning about?
<RanDom33> Saj0577, everything related to ubuntu?
<RanDom33> Saj0577, how it operates underneath the GUI..etc.
<Saj0577> alright you been looking at the website yeah?
<RanDom33> Saj0577, yes
<Saj0577> RanDom33: okay. I have only just joined the team so i cant provide much information and I dont think anyone else is around but if you got any questions i can try and answer them for you
<RanDom33> Saj0577, sys admin is what I would be interested in.
<Saj0577> you got any experience already?
<RanDom33> Saj0577,  i am looking to learn more about systems administration on ubuntu. I know only VERY BASIC cli usuage.
<Saj0577> okay. i aplogise but i got to disappear quickly but im sure there will be someone around soon that cn help okay :)
<RanDom33> Saj0577, alright thanks
<Saj0577> no problem. talk soon.
<RanDom33> If anyone else can help me out, suggestions, etc, I would appreciate it. Feel free to take your time.
#ubuntu-learning 2009-10-16
<bodhi_zazen> Welcome RanDom33 =)
<bodhi_zazen> most of us learn by doing, or at least I do
<RanDom33> bodhi_zazen, thanks for the welcome
<bodhi_zazen> If you are interested in learning, come on to #ubuntu-beginners
<bodhi_zazen> not exactly an education channel, but this channel if used primarily by the UCLP for administration
<bodhi_zazen> the UCLP project is yet young and we are in process of building courses
<RanDom33> Saj0577, what is the name of the beginner channel that i was in
<RanDom33> found it
<doctormo> Morning all
<pleia2> morning doctormo
<cprofitt> pleia2, what is the best way to get ahold of dinda?
<pleia2> cprofitt: I'd email her, I think she's traveling at the moment
<cprofitt> k
<cprofitt> need to talk to her about Edubuntu -- I am getting asked questions about it by some EDU magazines
<pleia2> might consider talking to laserjock in #edubuntu too
<pleia2> he runs the project and is very approachable
<cprofitt> pleia2, doing so now
 * pleia2 sees :)
<cprofitt> The courses for schools to use are the ones I really have a high interest in focusing on
<cprofitt> if he has requests... that will really help the UCLP
<cprofitt> and could funnel educators willing to help us write courses.
<pleia2> yeah, that'd be great
<cprofitt> thanks for the information pleia2 - that went well
<cprofitt> hey bodhi_zazen
<bodhi_zazen> 'lo cprofitt
<cprofitt> hey bodhi_zazen
<cprofitt> I hope to get some stuff from LaserJock in regards to course requests they have had from the EduBuntu side
<doctormo> Sounds good to me
<cprofitt> doctormo, yes...
<cprofitt> it focuses on the arena I am focused on -- mostly because of my job
<cprofitt> doctormo, is bioselement back on the team?
<doctormo> cprofitt: He said he was, and was back in the IRC channel that night
<doctormo> cprofitt: Send an appology to me (and to you?) about everything.
<cprofitt> I believe I got one...
<cprofitt> not sure if it was the same he sent you...
<doctormo> No, this one was addressed to me.
<cprofitt> k - then we got different ones.
<cprofitt> Have you calmed down from that evening as well?
<doctormo> Yes
<doctormo> Although I didn't think there was anything we couldn't work out. Just that it would take longer than it has to work everythign out.
<cprofitt> I think some of the accusations made that night could have escalated to non-repairable
<doctormo> Even licking one's plate is a repairable situation. Hurt feelings are a matter for the humble side of ourselves.
<cprofitt> True, but  some things ascend to a level above just us.
<cprofitt> hurt feelings are also different than damage to trust
<doctormo> cprofitt: Very rarely have I seen conversations get anywhere near that level in any ubuntu irc channel, this one has been particulary active in ego, but not in trust breakage.
<doctormo> bodhi_zazen and I may not see eye to eye, but I wouldn't not trust him on what he knows or to be a good leader and looking out for the group. Nor anyone else.
<doctormo> A problem of charicter is not always transferable to trust. If that's what you meant.
<cprofitt> that is not what I mean -- you made an accusation in reference to me that indicates you have a lack of trust with me.
<cprofitt> I think you were out of line and off based due to emotion, but nothing I have seen indicates that to be the case.
<cprofitt> so that leaves a lingering question in regards to that accusation and your trust level with me
<cprofitt> while I may be 'reading' too much in to it... that is still something I am concerned with
<Raidsong> +
<cprofitt> hello Raidsong
<Raidsong> hello
<Raidsong> my cat left you a message
 * cprofitt scratches head
<cprofitt> not following Raidsong
<Raidsong> the + was my cat
<cprofitt> if a + is a cat... then what is a - ?
<Raidsong> a dog
<Raidsong> or a lemur
<cprofitt> I vote lemur
<cprofitt> wow... we are making solid progress here
<Raidsong> we are indeed
<doctormo> cprofitt: I trust that you will do right by this community. There aren't enough instances where you've behaved overly sensitive to consider it a trend. I'm sorry if I blew that out of proportion with the accusation that you were always like that and thus unfit for leading this community.
 * cprofitt listens
<RanDom33> cprofitt, good day
<cprofitt> hello RanDom33
<RanDom33> cprofitt, we talked last night, just saying hi.. im on 64 bit koala now ;) just finished getting flash plugin working
<cprofitt> Nice.
<cprofitt> did you get VirtualBox working as well
<RanDom33> not yet
<RanDom33> just got home from work
<cprofitt> sorry to hear that...
<RanDom33> and got flash up
<RanDom33> i got rid of 32 bit
<RanDom33> you all convinced me
<RanDom33> to try 64
<cprofitt> I am eager to hear how it turns out... as I use VBox and can not move forward w/o VBox
<cprofitt> yeah... 64bit is ready for primetime
<cprofitt> I have been using it since 8.04
<RanDom33> i did manage at the very end of last night to get a virtualbox-ose working
<RanDom33> rather than virtualbox-3.0
<RanDom33> not sure of the difference
<RanDom33> open source edition
<cprofitt> doctormo, I appreciate that you still trust me. I also appreciate you are willing to express that you blew the incident out of proportion. As a leader in the community yourself it is important to mirror the behavior you seek to see in others. I agree with you that this project, especially in IRC, has a much too acidic nature to it.
<doctormo> cprofitt: Of course, the leadership CoC is a fairly high ideal. We're still only human and I'd like to think that we're all able to be given space to make mistakes.
<cprofitt> I strongly appreciate your contribution and efforts to the project.
<doctormo> This group has had a lot of input, and because everyone was fairly sure of their desires before they were confident of everyone elses. It ended up a little too conflicting.
<cprofitt> I also understand that emotions will at times get the better of people.
<doctormo> cprofitt: Of course, of everyone.
<doctormo> OK, time to go and talk to lots of NGOs about why Free Software should be a consideration at the Grassroots Tech conf.
<cprofitt> good luck
#ubuntu-learning 2009-10-17
<cprofitt> http://www.thesmartbean.com/magazine/home-schooling/introducing-your-child-to-linux/
<Joble> bodhizazen?  You here?
#ubuntu-learning 2009-10-18
<cprofitt> ping pleia2
<Saj0577> cprofitt: she at meetings all weekend i think
<cprofitt> ah...
<cprofitt> I got part of a course done... want to review Saj0577 ?
<Saj0577> yeah sure linky?
<cprofitt> http://learn.ufbt.net/course/view.php?id=8
<Saj0577> i managed to do a bit more today but mailing list mods need to forward my messages :(
<cprofitt> you can use liveID to login.
<cprofitt> do you have an account on the learn.ufbt.net site?
<Saj0577> cnt remember mine 2mins
<Saj0577> nope i dont
<cprofitt> Use the openID option and I will grant you rights then
<Saj0577> argh right just do the info page
<cprofitt> hold on...
<cprofitt> I need to make an account for you it seems
<Saj0577> hang on i just created one cprofitt
<cprofitt> k
<Saj0577> but you will need to give me rights etc i assume?
<cprofitt> yes
<cprofitt> http://learn.ufbt.net/course/view.php?id=8
<cprofitt> should be set now to look at it
<Saj0577> nope will log out and back in
<Saj0577> working now
<cprofitt> k
<Saj0577> so you done the review quiz as well?
<cprofitt> yes -- just for the first section.
<cprofitt> I still need to do the others...
<cprofitt> you can 'take' the quiz if you want.
<Saj0577> take it now then see what it like :)
<Saj0577> its good i like it and im liking the idea :)
<Saj0577> so could i create quizes liek that for people to do after i taught them my lessons?
<cprofitt> Yes...
<cprofitt> if you plan on running an IRC lesson...
<cprofitt> we would setup a course...
<cprofitt> you could link them to resources to read prior to the live session
<Saj0577> cprofitt: yeah, im planning on doing most of the courses via irc.
<cprofitt> or create resources inside the course
<cprofitt> then give the live session
<cprofitt> then have them go do a quiz or an activity
<cprofitt> You can even give them assignments...
<Saj0577> and could i check their scores afterwards that possile?
<cprofitt> and have the live sessions be 'help' assignments
<cprofitt> etc.
<cprofitt> yes... scores can be recorded
<Saj0577> oright.
<Saj0577> cool make it so much easier and better :D. cos giving them each a quiz over irc could take hours lol
<cprofitt> yep
<cprofitt> I will create more inside that course over the next 24-48 hours
<cprofitt> I also have to work on some security courses.
<Saj0577> so if i plan the FG courses, will i be able to get a section on there where i can keep the FG resources?
<cprofitt> Yes... I can upgrade you to a course author...
<cprofitt> then you can make courses.
<cprofitt> You might want to go through the two moodle courses
<cprofitt> http://learn.ufbt.net/course/category.php?id=2&categoryedit=on&sesskey=V9lMB9dbKK
<cprofitt> then ask me to upgrade your account.
<Saj0577> okay will do
<Saj0577> http://learn.ufbt.net/course/category.php?id=2&categoryedit=on&sesskey=V9lMB9dbKK
<cprofitt> sorry... only one
<cprofitt> the other was a test course I walked pleia2 and doctormo through
<Saj0577> which link do i click on that page lmfao!
<cprofitt> there should only be one now
<cprofitt> video training
<Saj0577> these bit of a joke lol
<Saj0577> that must be a computer voice! lol
<cprofitt> sounds real to me ... real bad
<Saj0577> poor wife listenig to that lol
<cprofitt> lol
 * Saj0577 *yawnss*
<Saj0577> if our videos are this bad we will be hated haha
<doctormo> Saj0577: What bad?
<Saj0577> doctormo: just doing the videos on ufbt website
<doctormo> ah ok
<Saj0577> im only on lesson 2 jeez
<Saj0577> the noise of him typing is annoying too lol
<cprofitt> lol
<cprofitt> its one of the things we need to replace...
<cprofitt> but it was a good 'example' course...
<cprofitt> and if you can get past the 'sound' it does have the information
<Saj0577> seriously it make su sleepy lol
<Saj0577> self explanatory most of this
<Saj0577> on this course page there is a spellingmistake it says videeo
<cprofitt> that would be my mistake
<cprofitt> actually... no...
<cprofitt> not seeing the error...
<Saj0577>  Add a Document Videeo
<cprofitt> got it
<Saj0577> he sounds as if he getting tired haha
<Saj0577> cprofitt: also adding a link video is actually the video for adding a document
<cprofitt> ok
<cprofitt> that was on the course creator...
<cprofitt> anything inside was uploaded...
<cprofitt> sounds like we should scrap that one
<Saj0577> yep/ almost done :D
<Saj0577> yeah a few of the videos are identical
<Saj0577> all done WOOOO
<cprofitt> so we need to re-write that course...
<Saj0577> yeah definately. there are a 3/4 videos that are identical.
<Saj0577> the url and title right etc but the flash or w/e it is is wrong thats embedded
<cprofitt> upgraded your account to course creator...
<cprofitt> you can add a course now and play with making one.
<Saj0577> okays. wow the page changed a bit there before i read what you put.
<Saj0577> cheers.
<Saj0577> cprofitt: got a quesiton if you got a minute?
<cprofitt> shoot Saj0577
<Saj0577> Right the LP group for the FG is moderated but can i make a branch in it that anyone can upload to?
<cprofitt> Not sure... I have not done that.
<Saj0577> hum il have a fiddle around
<pratt92000> hi
<pratt92000> community learning?
#ubuntu-learning 2010-10-18
<Tenyuu> how can I check if my wireless card supports channel 14?
<doctormo> pleia2: What's your thoughts on the recent blog posts about Canonical's contributors agreement?
<pleia2> doctormo: my internet access was pretty limited last week, I haven't caught up with blog-stuffs
<doctormo> http://ebb.org/bkuhn/blog/2010/10/17/shuttleworth-admits-it.html
<pleia2> catching up at work now, reading a Kuhn tirade will have to wait
<pleia2> (don't get me wrong, I respect Kuhn and met him at a conference this year, we just tend to disagree pretty frequently so his posts always require processing)
<pleia2> doctormo: can we schedule a team meeting for soon? we've got some interest in materials bubbling up and I don't know where to direct people
<doctormo> pleia2: Sure thing, it sounds like somethign we should be doing.
<pleia2> doctormo: how does thursday evening at 23:00UTC work for you?
<doctormo> pleia2: Trying to load calendar...
#ubuntu-learning 2010-10-19
<pleia2> doctormo: any luck with that calendar? :)
<doctormo> pleia2: Looks clear
* ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-learning to: The Ubuntu Learning Umbrella Community | https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Learning | Next Materials meeting, Thursday October 21st @ 2300 UTC | Support in #ubuntu
<pleia2> ok, there we go
<jledbetter_> doctormo: I'm interested in Materials. Been wandering through the wiki trying to grok what it is/what's done/what needs to be done.
<pleia2> jledbetter_: we'll be having a meeting on thursday (4PM Pacific) if you're available, we're trying to sorta jumpstart materials again, it languished when we got into far too many discussions over formatting
<pleia2> http://doctormo.org/2009/08/12/systems-administration-processes-services-and-deamons-with-apache/ is an example of one of the classes though
 * pleia2 digs up subpage explaining parts of a class
<jledbetter_> pleia2: I probably won't be available which is why I'm pinging now. * looks at the example *
<pleia2> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Learning/CourseLayout
<jledbetter_> Ok, so let's say I wanted to make up the materials, I just grab a topic and put my name there? For example, I guess a topic is "Testing and QA" on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Learning/DeveloperTopics
<pleia2> yep
<pleia2> then you create materials in whatever format you're comfortable with, the delivered materials will have to be pdf though
<jledbetter_> Is there a review process?
<pleia2> not a process so much as /join #ubuntu-leanring && "hey, can someone take a look at this?"
<pleia2> doctormo also asked for feedback on his blog
<jledbetter_> Ok. Cause I probably won't get a chance for actually teaching this to see how students do with the practicals. I've been wanting to make some courses though. Looking at p2pu. Can create my lesson plan, etc. and put here then use there.
<pleia2> there are some folks on the team who are experienced with teaching, so I think they will be able to eyeball the practicals and have some idea whether they are doable
<jledbetter_> Great. What's a "Drafter"?
<pleia2> I don't remember :) where?
<jledbetter_> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Learning/DeveloperTopics    There's an Organizer (makes sense) and a Drafter.
<pleia2> ah ok, so the Organizer just makes sure people aren't duplicating effort
<pleia2> the Drafter is the person doing the core work for the topic, I think? I dunno
<jledbetter_> Gotcha. I'll wait till after Thursday's meeting to snag a topic just in case :) Thank you!
<pleia2> cool, thanks :)
#ubuntu-learning 2010-10-21
<pleia2> materials meeting in an hour :)
<jledbetter> Thank you for the reminder :)
<pleia2> doctormo: you about?
#ubuntu-learning 2010-10-22
<jledbetter> meeting here or #meeting?
<pleia2> here
<pleia2> but no doctormo :(
<jledbetter> I'm sure any second now
<pleia2> I guess I can just talk about some things and he can catch up if he comes by
<pleia2> alright, so this meeting is to quickly talk about the status of learning materials and how we want to move forward with it
<pleia2> it started out last year, doctormo put together a dozen or so classes which he released for review on his blog, all done in open office and exported to pdf
<pleia2> then the deadly discussions happened: openoffice docs aren't translatable, as binaries, they aren't great in revision control
<pleia2> so what format to use? and how can the format be shared between other documentation projects?
<jledbetter> Haha. Deadly discussions.
<pleia2> so we settled on asciidoc, but then learned -manual was using latex, and -docs uses docbook but they'll switch to mallard someday
<pleia2> (maybe)
<pleia2> so months and months of this, and we all got tired and bored and kinda gave up
<pleia2> meanwhile, there are loco teams and people who still ask pretty frequently of the community if there are any premade classes they can teach at events, and we haven't been there to serve that need
<pleia2> I think what we need to do is give up on the format discussion for now, and move forward with course-writing
<jledbetter> Can always be ported, yes.
 * pleia2 nods
<pleia2> we can keep it all in revision control, so whether we use open office or latex or docbook or whatever to generate our pdfs, the originals will be available in *some* format for tweaking
<jledbetter> Looking up asciidoc and mallard. I've used latex but not the others.
<jledbetter> Yes.
<pleia2> I've edited docbook and latex, but not much with the others
<pleia2> and honestly openoffice is appealing because as a course-writer I can focus on content rather than format, and when I'm in course-writing mood that's what I need
<pleia2> course writers shouldn't have to worry about asciidoc build errors :)
<pleia2> (unless they want to!)
<jledbetter> I tend to use something online so that I can get to it everywhere but can save as / make it whatever when ready.
<pleia2> yeah, we had one guy writing his course on the wiki
<jledbetter> That's good as long as kept in sync with the repository
<pleia2> hmm, so courses online we may want to still have something in revision control, even if it's just a text file telling people where to find the source
<pleia2> but I think the number of people wanting the source may be limited, since classes are essentially delivered as .pdf
<jledbetter> A central location to find everything is good. Looks like the wiki was doing that. Could link (source) (etc)
<pleia2> I think we just see how this goes :)
<pleia2> hmm, yeah maybe the wiki
<jledbetter> Agreed. I'd like to put my source somewhere everyone can get it since I do like to do screenshots, programs, etc.
<pleia2> great
<pleia2> so I guess we should determine what our next steps are
<jledbetter> Well, we can hm put the stuff somewhere (our blogs, etc) and link from wiki
<jledbetter> Just to get us going? Then see how it goes.
 * pleia2 nods
<jledbetter> I did notice that when I was trying to find all the OpenWeek/UserDays/DevWeek talks about X topic that I had to go through each ... word...
<pleia2> ok, then maybe we get revision control rolling with some very simple steps on how to use it
<jledbetter> sprint? release? animal?
<pleia2> I guess they are sorted by adjective?
<jledbetter> Well, I just grabbed something from launchpad last night. Is that too technical for course writers?
<jledbetter> Adjective. That works :)
<jledbetter> You know, part of me wants some of these topics to be "bugs" so I can find out what someone was thinking and how I can meet that need. Example: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Learning/DeveloperTopics -> Getting Funding
<pleia2> oh, that's not a bad idea
<jledbetter> Ah, there is a project https://launchpad.net/ubuntu-learning-materials
<pleia2> yep :)
<jledbetter> Still learning how everything connects :)
<pleia2> it would also be good for people who are just using the courses and have no interest in downloading the source, they can still give us feedback
<jledbetter> Yes. Definitely. The source view might be a little intimidating for some.
<jledbetter> And I could see in one spot what's going instead of clicking lots of images on the wiki page to see where's what and what's where.
<jledbetter> Would we use this to say "ok, we're starting this again"? https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu-learning-materials
<pleia2> yeah
<pleia2> ok, so I sorta see this all happening kinda organically, the most important step being that those who can and want to start writing classes
<pleia2> starting with myself, since it'll be much easier for me to help new coursewriters if I've done one :)
<pleia2> and whoever else wants to be a guinea pig
<jledbetter> Me too.
<jledbetter> I want to make a course. Just not sure what.
<pleia2> I'll touch base with doctormo regarding what we can use for revision control (we can just use wiki and blogs for now), and his thoughts on bugs
<jledbetter> Ok.
 * jledbetter must blog more.
<pleia2> well, that's all I really had in mind for this meeting :)
<jledbetter> Any movement on this at UDS?
<pleia2> I don't think so
<jledbetter> Ok
<pleia2> at the last UDS we had this big collaboration meeting with -manual and -docs, but that never ended up going anywhere
<pleia2> I hate to say it, but -docs being non-committal on mallard has really been a problem
 * jledbetter looks these up
<pleia2> mallard is gnome's documentation format thingy
<jledbetter> I meant -manual and -docs
<pleia2> ah
<pleia2> yeah so the -docs team is what does all the official docs in ubuntu
<pleia2> -manual is ubuntu-manual.org, they printed a book of documentation for lucid, it was pretty impressive, tons of new contributors, made contributing easy
<pleia2> there was a lot of bad blood between the two teams because it seemed to be a lot of duplication of effort
<jledbetter> Well, the weird thing is all I can find is the manual team.
<jledbetter> Hm, I can see how there'd be duplication
<pleia2> https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-manual
<jledbetter> Looks like they have their "code" on launchpad and using bugs.
<pleia2> yeah
<jledbetter> Seems to be working for them so that's good.
<pleia2> I had actually forgotten about that
<jledbetter> Hm.
<jledbetter> Yes, not there. Ok, I also suggest having a link to the format we should use (not doc but practicals, etc) on the wiki too.
<pleia2> oh yeah, that link I never can find and have to search everywhere for
<pleia2> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Learning/CourseLayout
 * pleia2 scrolled up to find it
<jledbetter> And this is the one with the most finished ones: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Learning/SystemAdminTopics
<pleia2> ugh, I hate the new wiki theme
 * pleia2 switches back to default
<jledbetter> You tried out light?
<pleia2> yeah
<pleia2> fixed width makes babies cry :(
<pleia2> actually I'm probably just being old and change-hating
<jledbetter> I like fixed width but folks here are changing my mind for these type of sites ;)
<jledbetter> types
<jledbetter> Long day.
<pleia2> admittedly I have fixed-width sites, but on things like wikis it just means the space to edit is tiny
<pleia2> jledbetter: you coming out to mt view tonight?
<jledbetter> Nope. Flight fell through. Maybe next Thursday. Mutter.
<pleia2> ok, don't tell anyone, I think my siamese just claimed the california cds for her own
 * pleia2 eyes cat in box
<jledbetter> That can't be comfortable.
<pleia2> she loves boxes
<jledbetter> Does she love warm things too?
<pleia2> yeah
<jledbetter> My Siamese did too. Including the hood on the fish tank. Never fel/l in thou
<pleia2> oh wow
<pleia2> hehe
<jledbetter> speaking of cats. Cat on keyboard moment.
<pleia2> ok, I updated the Materials page to link to layout
<jledbetter> Great, thank you :)
<pleia2> it would probably be good to link to a demo course too, I feel like a goofball linking to doctormo's year old blog post for such a thing
<pleia2> maybe something on the wiki so it's more accessible than having to download pdfs
<jledbetter> Can link to one of his blog posts for now and then to something newer when you have it. Just so that we're designing similarly. Also, helps poke the inspiration fire.
<jledbetter> I can tell someone that does graphics did this wiki page :D
<pleia2> yea, that's doctormo :)
<pleia2> he's amazing with this stuff
<jledbetter> The two kinds of course materials is still confusing me a little but I think examples will help there too.
<pleia2> yeah I think I'll have to nudge him about that description, it's not altogether clear to me either
<jledbetter> Yeah, looking at the Background Topics and Classroom Topics in SystemAdmin and it's not helping me. Hopefully a new description will help firm it up in my head.
<jledbetter> And what "drafter" means ;)
<pleia2> yeah that
<pleia2> :)
<pleia2> ok, added a link to doctormo's command line basics class as an example
<jledbetter> Maybe it goes back to the doc formating discussions.
<jledbetter> Great
<pleia2> yeah I'm not sure
<jledbetter> Only 29 members? That seems low.
<pleia2> this team?
<jledbetter> Yes
<pleia2> yeah
<pleia2> people expire and don't return, plus we've been kinda lame about actually doing courses so not many have joined latelyh
<jledbetter> Ah, ok. It'll improve then :)
<pleia2> yeah, I hope so :)
<doctormo> pleia2: Ah hell, I just woke up :-(
<doctormo> OK so I've read the back ground, I think you're right about everything, nothing to correct.
 * doctormo kicks evolution in the balls
<pleia2> I love being right about everything
<jledbetter> Hehe
<nigelb> pleia2: now I know the origins of the 'p' - Princess!
#ubuntu-learning 2011-10-18
<e33> hi
<e33>  how can i add a shortcut near to (application Places)
<pleia2> e33: you'll want to join #ubuntu for support, this channel is for developing class material for teaching folks how to use ubuntu
<e33> sorry guys
#ubuntu-learning 2015-10-16
<drakonslayor> hi was wondering if someone could help me out
<drakonslayor> here's my problem
<drakonslayor> trying to increase the txpower on my wifi card with iwconfig mon0 txpower #... with no result, it doesn't tell it is or isn't a command and there seems to be no change in the txpower dBm
#ubuntu-learning 2017-10-16
<sandeepan> hello!
