#ubuntu-doc 2005-07-11
<mdke> hey robitaille 
<robitaille> hi mdke.  Totally forgot about the CC meeting.  I should check my own calendar  a bit more often :)
<mdke> haha
* robitaille is tired after 2 full days of first-aid training...
<mdke> i bet
<mdke> i was thinking today we should get cracking on the wiki icons
<mdke> to start with it is me and you i think, maybe more people will join
<robitaille> "cracking on wiki icons"  as in repairing wiki pages with icons that don't currently work?
<mdke> yes
<mdke> we could use a table to record which icons have been fixed, like last time
<robitaille> I'll have some time later tonight (i.e in 4-5 hours) to work on that.  I still think we are not talking about so many pages here :)
<mdke> robitaille, we'll see. So do you agree on the use of a table?
<mdke> so that we can see who has done what already?
<robitaille> yes. I guess similar to the "wikigardening" page (or whatever is is called)
<mdke> ok i will amend that page
<mdke> robitaille, did you move just the icons to IconsPage or also the screenshots?
<robitaille> just the icons.   Which screenshots?
<mdke> hang on a tic
<mdke> ok
<mdke> robitaille, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/WikiGardeningIcons?action=show , some of the things towards the bottom are screenshots
<mdke> i gtg to bed now, but leave some for me tomorrow! :)
<mdke> robitaille ^^
<robitaille> I have to go soon...not sure I still understand the difference between screenshot and icons.
<mdke> robitaille, a screenshot is a capture for the sake of one document. an icon is a small file. Basically the question is, did you upload them all as attachments to IconsPage, or just the ones described in IconsPage?
<robitaille> I simply uploaded as attachment to IconPages all the icons that were refered to in IconsPage.
<mdke> robitaille, ok that's what I thought. My view would be to let the other things (screenshots etc) take care of themselves, we can't track them all down one by one
<robitaille> Ah, now I get it.  Personally I think screenshots should be attchement to the page there are used in; except maybe for the ones that are reused many times. 
<mdke> exactly
<mdke> that was the idea
<robitaille> I have to go; kids are screaming for food for dinner.  I'll be back in a couple of hours
<mdke> robitaille, ok cool, i'll see ya tomorrow
<mdke> leave me some icons...
<jsgotangco> ouch i missed the CC meeting
<mgalvin> hi all
<froud> African Greetings
<Burgundavia> salut
<jsgotangco> salut
<jsgotangco> im looking at this
<jsgotangco> http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/docs/
<jsgotangco> im trying to get ideas for the team
<froud> yes they have nice methods
<froud> the core of the team is an employed group
<froud> but they have a good contributor team
<jsgotangco> yeah i noticed that
<jsgotangco> there's so much pride in their work i notice
<jsgotangco> that's nice
<froud> yes
<jsgotangco> Custom scripts to generate PDF and HTML output
<jsgotangco> Custom XSLT stylesheets for both print and HTML versions
<jsgotangco> Emacs with PSGML mode (optional, but recommended)
<jsgotangco> The Documentation Project is not interested in unmaintained documentation. If you have a document to submit, either you or someone else will need to continue maintenance of the document. Documentation should be focused on software found in Fedora Core or Extras. If you have an idea outside of that scope, please bring it to the mailing list for discussion.
<froud> jsgotangco: what are you suggesting?
<froud> we have custom stylesheets
<froud> but we dont support PDF
<jsgotangco> yes i know that, i'm just dumping 
<jsgotangco> something is missing here
<froud> mainly because it requires install of java
<froud> however, in kde Makefile I do make install guide as a pdf
<froud> the xsl cust layer for PDF is there
<froud> but we dont really use it
<froud> someting missing at ubuntu?
<froud> yes, but people don't seem to like formal approaches
<jsgotangco> perhaps that is the problem?
<froud> it is, but it is hard to make people work in a way they dont want to
<froud> so we kind of go by  the seat of our pants
<froud> but all that is not the core problem IMHO
<jsgotangco> there's really no need to formalize so sudden, it should be a natural progression for that as the project matures
<froud> jsgotangco: the real problem is that we do not have enough people actually writing
<froud> and because there is no formality, everything is a team decision
<froud> this takes too much time
<froud> and people get defocused off the writing
<froud> 90% of our meetings are about technical issues and semantics
<froud> instead of progress on the documents
<jsgotangco> right people notice that already
<jsgotangco> i actually receive emails with their concerns on our technical talk
<froud> this is why I am trying to focus on the docs
<froud> but I must also do some infrustructure stuff
<froud> thankfully, jeffsch and mgalvin have also started with helping on that front
<froud> I think people need to stake parts of the docs and commit to writing them
<froud> a page a day approach
<froud> if ppl do a page a day, then it very quickly mounts up to a book
* jsgotangco remembers kquickguide
<froud> yes like you did on that book
<froud> classic example
<jsgotangco> yeah it flew off on its own after having a structure
<froud> personally I find that at the moment I get side tracked into other things
<froud> it's not good
<froud> so I am now in kquickguide adding kde-system settings
<froud> but I have a section in kuserguide that I must get back to
<jsgotangco> i guess i hvae to revisit that book again since the two other people who were involved are quiet lately
<froud> but inbetween doing this I have prepared the deb packaging
<froud> I am focusing on kde stuff, mainly because it needs it and to get structures out of the way
<rob^> dam it takes a while for emails to make it to the list
<froud> rob^: sometimes it does. I am in africa so it takes it even longer to reach me :-)
<rob^> heh yeah
<froud> i see th epatches will apply them now
<jsgotangco> im going to look into svn again later and probably upgrade
<jsgotangco> the edubuntu stuff won't be around till next month i guess so i'll go back into kde
<jsgotangco> although i was thinking of starting the admin guide right now even if its not going to be shipped, but a good head start for the next release after breezy
<rob^> when is the faq guide going to be shipped?
<froud> rob^: it is not planned for breezy. however, if it is ready we can ship it
<froud> I don't think people will mind shipping it
<rob^> a lot of people I know find the unofficial one helpful
<froud> I think we should, if it is good and does not give problems like ubuntuguide.org
<rob^> if we could ship an official one it would be good
<froud> rob^: yes it is helpful
<froud> that is why we took it into svn
<froud> but ppl had issues with it
<rob^> yes, a good idea I agree
<froud> at least now you can edit and go to town on it
<rob^> what parts, exactly, did they have issues with?
<froud> mostly backports I thinkn
<rob^> ah
<rob^> what if we remove those sections until they were ready?
<froud> where possible try not to use them
<froud> dont delete it just sgml comment <!-- them -->
<rob^> yeah, thats what I was thinking
<froud> but you are more than welcome to do what you think on them
<froud> mgalvin is also working on them
<froud> he wrote the ppc version
<rob^> I might have a look
<froud> it would be nice if all the authors who wrote derivatives of ubuntuguide would join us like he has
<jsgotangco> yeah well chua isnt coming here lately
<froud> I wish Chen Wen Kiat would do that
<froud> he does stop by from time to time
<froud> one of the problems autors had with the ubuntuguide.org is that it was not trully free
<rob^> I pretty much have been working exclusively on the faq
<froud> that was solved when it came to svn
<froud> I noticed
<froud> thanks very much
<rob^> np
<froud> and keep the coffee in the cup
<rob^> ah yes
<froud> you and mgalvin are doing a sterling job
<rob^> I now have a nice wireless keyboard
<froud> I am very happy to see that the week it took me to port it was not wasted
<rob^> :)
<rob^> I'm still learning docbook, but my past php/html experience comes in handy
<rob^> time to go get something out of the freezer for dinner..
<froud> ah yes wireless keyboards are brilliant
<froud> rob^: did you see that mgalvin has profiled it for ppc, i386 and amd64
<froud> this is good because it stops the fragmentation and reduces the fragmentation that was taking place with the other versions
<froud> reduces the ovehead
<froud> I hope we can ship faqguide, but I think it will also go on help.ubuntu.com if we every get that working
<jsgotangco> yeah
<froud> dinner, breakfast here
<froud> jsgotangco: yeah what?
<rob^> yes
<froud> dinner time for you to
<jsgotangco> yeah on all points regarding fragmentation
<froud> rob^: I can always output and upload the kde version to http://lnix.net/~froud
<rob^> froud, I'm a ubuntu user, so I tend to stay away from explaining kde things
<froud> OK
<froud> :-)
<rob^> I use xmlto to check my work, doesn't work in yelp 
<froud> no yelp cant do profiles
<froud> to validate you can use xmllint
<rob^> nither can xmlto (it looks a little funny)
<froud> and to view you can use the make targets
<froud> its better to use the gome/Makefile
<froud> that will output html to build/gnome/faqguidei386
<rob^> whats the makefile target for the faq guide?
* rob^ looks
<froud> there are three
<froud> and one dummie that calls the three
<froud> kfaq builds all
<rob^> status: not working?
<rob^> :q
<froud> do you have the toolchain setup
<rob^> doh, dam vim
<froud> sudo apt-get install xsltproc
<froud> sudo apt-get install docbook
<froud> sudo apt-get install docbook-xsl
<froud> that should do it
<froud> then Make kfaq
<rob^> yes
<froud> opps whatever the gnome target is
<rob^> rob@rob:~/Documents/ubuntu-doc$ make faq-gnome
<rob^> Makefile:150: *** missing separator.  Stop.
<froud> make faq
<rob^> same result
<froud> works here
<froud> did you svn up since last night
<rob^> yes
<rob^> about 2 minutes ago
<froud> Hmm missing seperator?
<rob^> a svn status brings up several files with a ?
<rob^> one of the the Makefile
<froud> svn up
<froud> you need svn up
<froud> not svn status
<froud> svn status shows you what is the change in your wc
<froud> nope the make target is good (thanks mgalvin)
<froud> in the root of your trunk do svn up
<rob^> yeah, I know to use up
<froud> Ok then someting is wrong on your system
<rob^> I'll recheckout the repository
<froud> no
<froud> can you do svn revert on the gnome makefile
<froud> cd gnome
<froud> svn revert Makefile
<froud> make faq
<rob^> that seems to be working
<froud> probably a G on the Makefile
<froud> faq: faqi386 faqamd64 faqppc
<froud> calls three targets
<froud> so you can also do make faqi386
<froud> to just build the i386 version
<froud> or shall we say gnome i386 version
<froud> :-)
<froud> we have six books in one file there
<rob^> and kfaq make the kde one?
<froud> same thing
<froud> cd ../kde
<rob^> oh
<rob^> right
<froud> make kfaq
* rob^ gets it now
<froud> to make all the files do make kall
<froud> that is will build what we planned to ship
<froud> if the kde faqguide is ready I will add it to the build for deb
<rob^> thats much better, I was using xmlto which just chucks in all the profiles (quite ugly)
<froud> :-) yes
<froud> glad you know how to do it now
<rob^> thanks
<jsgotangco> froud, we should make a schedule
<froud> so remember when working you can use the arch and the os attributes on nodes
<froud> jsgotangco: schedule I thought breezy release schedule was that :-)
<jsgotangco> yeah breezy sched is general though
<froud> how do you propose a schedule?
<froud> jsgotangco: I dont understand
<froud> how would the schedule work?
<rob^> does svn diff ignore the build directory?
<froud> no
<froud> yes'
<froud> which
<froud> it ingnores files that are not added
<froud> so it does not ignore build/kde or build/gnome
<rob^> so remove them first
<froud> but it does ignore all the files in those paths because they are not added to svn
<froud> no
<froud> dont remove them
<froud> nobody did svn add on the files
<rob^> oh ok
<froud> so they will be ignored
<rob^> good
<froud> rob^: why dont you use eSvn
<froud> sudo apt-get install esvn
<rob^> never heard of it
<froud> its a gui front-end to subversion
<froud> it may be easier for you and will teach you svn
<rob^> I'll have a look
<froud> I use it
<froud> but  then I am biased as I wrote the manual
<rob^> ha
<froud> It's in universe
* rob^ looks at esvn
<froud> rob^: go to file > options > other > status refresh
<rob^> how come esvn does show the C directories
<froud> set it to online
<froud> that way it will show you the changed file status as they change in svn
<froud> you will also be able to see the files you changed
<froud> it also has external diff
<froud> and 3way diff
<froud> jsgotangco: how do you propose the scheduling idea would work?
<froud> jsgotangco: it sounds like a good idea, but how would it work?
<rob^> how come there isnt anything under generic->faqguide etc..
<froud> huh
<rob^> like the C directory or the .xml files
<froud> there is
<jsgotangco> froud, breezy schedule is too general
<froud> rob create a workspace
<jsgotangco> an internal schedule would of course target the freeze schedule of breezy in general
<jsgotangco> sort of milestones
<froud> rob^: file > workspace
<froud> sounds good, but how would that help make people write?
<froud> jsgotangco: ppl hav eto keep the milestones
<jsgotangco> good question but the schedule isn't supposed to make people write
<jsgotangco> its supposed to make people aware of the time
<jsgotangco> so that they'll write
<froud> rob^: you can also do view > refresh workspace
<froud> jsgotangco: hmm, could work
<jsgotangco> the schedule isn't going to be too specific
<froud> jsgotangco: but dont you think, knowing how it works here, that people just wont do
<jsgotangco> let's just say we give next week as sort of review #1 phase
<froud> k
<jsgotangco> just saying the book is "awaiting review" won't cut it IMO
<froud> At present we have status's on all nodes
<jsgotangco> "people just won
<jsgotangco> "people just won't do" doesn't apply to everyone
<froud> sure
<froud> but those that are doing are not the target
<froud> see http://lnix.net/~froud/status/kqg-report.html
<jsgotangco> how often is the html page status updated ?
<froud> one a day or every two days
<jsgotangco> yikes
<jsgotangco> i should burn my svn again
<froud> if there are no changes I do every second day
<jsgotangco> i see soo may "HELP WANTED" now
<froud> yes the new kde-system settings section i need help
<froud> kcontrol is replaced by kde-systemsettings
<froud> but as you can see I have written Personal through to Launch Feedback
<froud> and set to review
<jsgotangco> i can't do this, i don't even have this setup to begin with
<jsgotangco> you said before you compiled it even
<froud> jsgotangco: you can do it on the status attributes
<froud> and people canbuild the html
<froud> but there is no place to upload gnome at present
<jsgotangco> no i meant the book itself
<froud> I dont understand
<jsgotangco> kcontrol is replaced
<jsgotangco> kde-systemsettings
<froud> yes replaced in breezy kubuntu
<jsgotangco> i thought you said before you compiled
<froud> jsgotangco: you mean you dont have a place to upload the docs
<jsgotangco> noooo
<froud> we are not connecting
<froud> try agian
<jsgotangco> indeed
<jsgotangco> hmm
<jsgotangco> is there a kubuntu breezy repo already?
<froud> yes in svn
<froud> trunk/kde
<froud> or do you mean the distro
<jsgotangco> hmmm im so sure we are talking in english
<froud> I have kde docs in svn
<jsgotangco> yeah the distro
<froud> like ubuntu there is no repos
<froud> its everywhere and nowhere
<jsgotangco> ok so its just updated KDE then
<froud> Riddell wanted an svn but has not
<froud> jsgotangco: kubuntu will not ship a standard kde for breezy
<froud> there will be no kcontrol
<jsgotangco> gyaahh
<froud> instead there will be kde-systemsettings
<froud> OK jsgotangco what can't you do?
<froud> jsgotangco: as I see it, you can make all the docs
<froud> and you can do the deb build for kubuntu-docs
<froud> when I build the docs and upload to lnix.net/~froud I also compile in any changes to the deb and upload that
<froud> the status pages dont get shipped
<froud> and we use them just for status's
<froud> jsgotangco: ?
<froud> jsgotangco: we're talking about status notes on docs
<froud> what I am saying is that we have status notes
<mdke> morning
<froud> morn
<froud> jsgotangco: so if there is status, how does that fit with schedule
<froud> jsgotangco: perhaps you want a given number of nodes to be at a given status by a certain date?
* mdke rubs his eyes in disbelief
<froud> jsgotangco: that would be a milestone
<froud> mdke: what? Have I done someting wrong again?
<mdke> i see a long scrollback
<mdke> but i can't figure out what the hell you guys are talking about
<froud> uhm I was helping rob^ and the jsgotangco is thinking about a schedule
<froud> but I dont understand how it works
<froud> and now he mentions status's so I show status reports
<froud> and from there I am lost 
<mdke> sounds like he's had too much green tea again
<froud> I can't understand
<froud> trying to
<mdke> why?
<froud> well the idea of a schedule may be good
<froud> I would like to explore the idea and see how it works with our current system
<froud> mdke: js is proposing milestones
<mdke> robitaille, nice work man
<froud> to get people writing with a focus
<froud> mdke: it comes back to the problem you mentioned
<froud> mdke: many people have commit accounts, but not many are committing content
<mdke> we are volunteers
<mdke> its natural
<mdke> i don't see a problem i have to say
<froud> yes, we volunteer, but we that do commit can't do everything
<mdke> ok
<mdke> everyone should do what they can
<froud> and we would like to get books done so we can package them
<froud> no point packing something that is not done
<mdke> i'm not against a schedule if people agree, the people responsible for docs should take care of it
<froud> so those that commit have to do even more
<mdke> i am against forcing people to do more than they can though
<BeerDump> fine
<froud> agreed
<froud> but how to make progress with small number of active committers
<mdke> i'm off to play tennis
<mdke> see ya later
<froud> enjoy
<froud> BeerDump: fine what?
<BeerDump> no schedule then
<froud> i c
<froud> ok ppl luv you and leave you till l8tr
<jsgotangco> brb
<robitaille> mdke:  I'm off for the night.  As per your earlier request, I left you a few icons to play with on WikiGardeningIcons :)
<jsgotangco> oohhhh
<jsgotangco> robitaille: night
<robitaille> exit
<mdke> ciao enrico
<enrico> ciao
<mdke> come va?
<enrico> mdke: bene
<enrico> I'm leaving friday for debconf and today I have to start preparing my 1 talk and 2 workshops, buying liquors and the like :)
<mdke> haha
<mdke> essential preparation eh
<mdke> enrico, portati il limoncello
<mdke> enrico, i don't know if you noticed, we changed the default QA for documentation to be the ubuntu-doc@lists
<mdke> hope this is ok!
<enrico> it's very ok.  It didn't have much sense to point to me now
<mdke> cool thanks
<rob^> you should get a largish patch for the faq shortly via the mailing list
<froud-work> ;-)
<froud-work> will pic it up
<rob^> should be intresting to see what people say about it
<froud-work> rob^: has anyone applie dto get you a commit account
<rob^> no
<froud-work> please send me your public pgp key and desired username
<froud-work> sean@inwords.co.za
<rob^> ok
<rob^> done
<froud-work> thanks I will fwd to enrico so that he can get James to create the account
<froud-work> enrico: ping new svn commit account headed your way
<enrico> froud-work: ok, I'll catch it
<enrico> in the meantime
<enrico> the EU parliament rejected the proposal for a software patent directive !!!
<enrico> W00T!  W00T!  W00T!!
<froud-work> cool
<mdke> good news
<mdke> almost unanimous too
<rob^> good to hear, if only Australia thought the same way :(
<mdke> now for a really good day all we need is for the Olympics to be given to London
<rob^> night all
<froud-work> night rob^ thanks for your work
<rob^> np
<froud-work> enrico: elmo is slow again on some accounts
<mdke> elmo is pretty busy right now, we can always ping him and he'll do it
<froud-work> when I ping him he ignores
<mdke> he has not been online the last two days
<enrico> if elmo ignores, there's not much to do 
<enrico> in Debian it's the same
<mdke> i havent had him ignore me
<froud-work> I pinged him about 4 days ago on kubuntu-devel
<enrico> really unfortunate
<mdke> he is just not always there
<froud-work> He he when he just posted a comment
<froud-work> he is there
<froud-work> he just chooses what to respond to
<froud-work> :-) selective hearing
<mdke> that's what busy people do i guess
<mdke> we'll just keep trying
<froud-work> but problem is that this can discourage new people who have energy
<mdke> in the meantime people can submit patches
<froud-work> patches are fine, but after some time they become a Royal PITA
<froud-work> and people want more direct access
<mdke> yes
<mdke> well tbh we have only been waiting 5-6 days for mgalvin
<mdke> its not too bad
<froud-work> it also creates work for ppl like you, jeffsch and I
<mdke> when he comes online I will chase up
<froud-work> cool
<froud-work> yes, a week is reasonable
<froud-work> but longer and it gets silly
* mdke nods
<froud-work> we need two elmo's I dont believe the fault with svn as sabdfl stated in last meeting
<froud-work> its a human thing
<froud-work> perhaps just for this it may be better to port to a linode :-)
<mdke> well i don't think its a huge issue
<mdke> we'll see
<froud-work> It's an issue for a long time and is like a thorn in the foot
<mdke> froud-work, can you fix the time on your computer? your emails often appear before the mail that they are replying to
<froud-work> you have an account so it's not an issue for you
<froud-work> but think of the new eager beaver
<froud-work> do they
<froud-work> Hmmm
<froud-work> what's the uri for the ubuntu ntp server
<mdke> erm
<mdke> not sure
<froud-work> Ah its ok I found one in the UK
<mdke>  /usr/bin/ntpdate a.ntp.alphazed.net is the one i use
<froud-work> snap
<froud-work> brb
<froud> mdke: what is your time now
<mdke> 12.52
<froud> Ok its working 13:52 here
<mdke> Wed Jul  6 11:53:10 UTC 2005
<mdke> cool
<froud> thanks for that I did not see the problem
<mgalvin> hi all
<froud> hey
<mgalvin> hey froud
<froud> wazzzzz up kdude :-)
<mgalvin> do you know where elmo is?
<froud> no
<froud> enrico: ping
<froud> enrico: speak to mgalvin about his account
<froud> mgalvin: know enrico has nudged him today
<mdke> elmo is dead
<froud> mdke: dont joke
<mdke> hopefully he will be revived soon
<froud> mdke: not funny dude
<froud> mdke: bad karma
<mdke> okay
<mdke> i take it back
<mdke> no harm intended
<mgalvin> enrico, is it possible to get my account set up soon?
<enrico> hello?
<enrico> I sent a mail to elmo today, also asking about the status of old requests
<mgalvin> ok, thanks, more patches for know i guess
<mdke> mgalvin, we'll get there eventually!
<mgalvin> :)
<mdke>  [14:32]  < thom> mdke: moving
<mdke> elmo is moving house apparently
<mgalvin> ah, i see
<mgalvin> do we have a coding standards document for coding the documents? like for example i noticed that the xml docs all use spaces instead of tabs, things like that
<froud> no
<froud> use what is comfortable fo ryou
<mgalvin> ok cool, just wondering
<froud> the whitespace outside elements is worthless
<froud> its just one option of how you may see tings
<froud> plovs: you wrote to the list!!! what a nice surprise.
<robitaille> mdke:  good job on these icons.
<mdke> robitaille, high five!
<mdke> good job to you too
<mdke> actually I might not have finished em
<robitaille> I saw that you found at least one new one for the IconsPage page; maybe we'll have to seach for any png to see if any others are hidding in the wiki on individual pages.
<mdke> i think I found most of em
<mdke> i haven't uploaded all the screenshots yet, but I will do em in a mo
<robitaille> hummm...LaptopTestingConditions has been created.  Have they started shipping them?
<mdke> nope
* mdke crosses fingers
* robitaille crosses fingers and toes
<robitaille> time to go to work...sigh
<mgalvin> Is it possible for me to become an "official" docteam member?
<mdke> you are
<mdke> we don't really have official/not official
<mdke> except for commit access, which we're working on for you :)
<mgalvin> cool
<mdke> was there something else you had in mind?
<mdke> you could go for Ubuntu membership if you want
<mgalvin> i am an ubuntu member :)
<mgalvin> that was all, i was just wondering if there was anything special i needed to do
<mdke> ah no need then
<mgalvin> is it alright if i edit the FQ Guide entry on the wiki
<mgalvin> also is a preview of the gnome version of the docs being hosted anywhere, mako's seem outdates
<mdke> yeah we are trying to sort it
<mgalvin> i could put previews on my site if no one else is already doing it
<mdke> maybe someone who has a people.ubuntu.com webspace will volunteer
<mdke> i'm asking now
<mdke> mgalvin, you got some decent space?
<mdke> i have a 128 upload
<mdke> we could share it
<jeffsch> I can host the style guide, at least temporarily
<mgalvin> i like i have around 500MB free space at the moment
<mdke> mgalvin, upload?
<mdke> maybe we can get mako again
<mgalvin> i can upload the previews to my site
<mgalvin> or if mako can thats fin
<mgalvin> fine
<mdke> i've pinged him, we'll see if he is around
<mgalvin> ok
<mdke> hi jeffsch how you doing
<jeffsch> ok
<jeffsch> you got olympics, you don't got patents
<mdke> yes
<mdke> good day alround
<mgalvin> i feel bad, i live in ny, sad on both those fronts :(
<mgalvin> oh well
<mdke> eh
<mdke> how can you be sad on the patents decision?
<mdke> oh
<mdke> i c
<mgalvin> i am very glad about the eu patent news
<mdke> :)
<mgalvin> gotta run, l8r all
#ubuntu-doc 2005-07-12
<rob^> did you get my last email to the list?
<mgalvin> hey rob, i just saw it
<rob^> I took it at face value
<mgalvin> sounds good to me
<mgalvin> no prob
<rob^> cool..
<rob^> at least I got people talking about it :)
<mgalvin> yup, that always good :)
<mgalvin> backports is often referred to as crackports, hehe, so it is good that we should be fine without them
<rob^> yes
<unome> guys, any plans for Ubuntu Bible 2005 Edition or something similar? 
<unome> Can't wait for a book, someone gotta do it!
<jsgotangco> im sure the some publishers have something being done at the moment
<jsgotangco> as for the docteam to do it, we're relatively small to do something like that
<robitaille> unome: http://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-doc/2005-June/002572.html
<robitaille> at least one publishing comapny is working on a Uuntu book according to that email
<jsgotangco> oohhh Manning...
<jsgotangco> there's also APress
<robitaille> I'm sure a bunch of them are working, or planning something.  Ubuntu is the flavour of the month for Linux, and they smell a market
<robitaille> but a book is totally beyond the scope of our little group :)
<jsgotangco> you never know :D
<robitaille> you're writing one? :)
<jsgotangco> hah i wish i had the time
<rob^> just a thought on the faq guide, I'm thinking that telling people where to get libdvdcss2, w32codecs etc is a bad idea
<jsgotangco> my current involvement with oracle is hampering my ubuntu contrib
<rob^> I dont think Canonical would want us to either
<jsgotangco> (im doing stuff in RHEL at the moment)
<jsgotangco> rob^, they won't support what is not included in Main for starters
<rob^> well I'm going to submit a patch that mentions but doesn't tell people exactly what to do for the faq guide
<rob^> unlike whats there now
<jsgotangco> rob^, but some applications like kaffeine explicitly say where to get them codecs, but that is very specific for an app
<rob^> in the docs for that app?
<robitaille> just point them at the wiki page :)
<rob^> yeah
<jsgotangco> in the actual app at the first time you run it
<jsgotangco> (the app looks for codecs)
<jsgotangco> yeah, logical route is from the book and point them to the wiki
<rob^> ok
<jsgotangco> (besides the links can change, but published books are frozen)
<rob^> yes
<unome> robitaille: great piece, thanks.
<robitaille> I wonder who is writing that book for Manning
<jsgotangco> no idea, although i know who is the one writing for APress
<unome> the only problem is, any book will be outdated in 6 months
<robitaille> can you say who?
<jsgotangco> robitaille: hornbeck
<robitaille> While these books become outdated fast, they are a good desk reference for users just starting into Linux. They need that type of printer support.  Personally I don't see someone like my dad going and finding help about Linux on IRC or a mailing list
<unome> no doubt
<robitaille> I miss the Ubuntu traffic to find info like this: http://people.ubuntulinux.org/~mako/ubuntu-traffic/u20041105_11.html#1
<robitaille> it's too bad it's way too much effort to restart these weekly traffic 
<jsgotangco> heh yeah
<jsgotangco> "oh well"
* rob^ patch sent
<jsgotangco> hold on let me check 
<jsgotangco> hmmm sean already patched it
<jsgotangco> oohh wait it wasnt
<jsgotangco> rob^, applied
<rob^> cool
<rob^> jsgotangco, one more to fix a few small things..
<jsgotangco> ahhh ok
<jsgotangco> rob^, done
<jsgotangco> froud, hello
<froud> morning
<jsgotangco> how is one of my favorite south africans
<froud> was the global.ent patch attached to the message Patch 3 faq guide applied
<froud> cold
<froud> just woke up
<froud> coffee
<jsgotangco> i didnt see any global.ent patch
<jsgotangco> hmm
<froud> robert sent through 2 patches
<jsgotangco> stupid thunderbird didnt show it
<froud> do you see it now
<jsgotangco> i only got 1 patch in my gmail 
<jsgotangco> can you patch global.ent?
<froud> I see both patches make changes to global.ent
<jsgotangco> i only see 1 patch for the faqguide
<jsgotangco> that's what i only applied
<rob^> they are both in the one xml.diff file
<rob^> its how svn diff does it
<froud> rob^: better to make single patches per file
<froud> did you make the diff from trunk?
<rob^> whats the diff command for it?
<rob^> yes
<rob^> do it from each directory?
<froud> no
<froud> cd into the dir
<froud> svn diff foo.xml > foo.xml.diff
<rob^> ok np
<froud> rob^: single patches make it easier to remove unwanted changed
<froud> jsgotangco: thanks you applied it
<rob^> yes
<froud> hmm jsgotangco did that change libs/global.ent
<froud> doesn't look like it
<froud> svn update ubuntu-docs --non-interactive 
<froud> U ubuntu-docs/trunk/generic/faqguide/C/faqguide.xml
<froud> Updated to revision 1376.
<froud> successfully (0)
<jsgotangco> nope it didnt
<froud> no global.ent change
<jsgotangco> i never applied it to global.ent i didnt notice it was a 2 in 1 patch
<froud> both patches are two in one
<jsgotangco> i say we just recommend rob an svn account :)
<froud> so I see that the first patch you applied also did not get updates to global.ent
* jsgotangco suck
<froud> jsgotangco: did that yesterday
<froud> copy them to libs/
<froud> and patch -p0 global.ent faqguide.xml.diff
<froud> and patch -p0 global.ent faqguide.xml.diff2
<rob^> yeah all of mine have been like that :(
<froud> rob^: when your patch is two or more dont use diff ext
<froud> make it txt
<rob^> ah ok
<froud> what's the diff
<froud> when we see file with diff ext
<froud> we think one file
<froud> when we see txt we think multiple files
<froud> but in general just do a diff per file
<froud> because it makes it easier to role back on things
<froud> rob^: you are doing great work btw
<rob^> thanks, I'm about to submit another one (I'm on a roll today)
<froud> jsgotangco: http://lnix/~froud was updated last night
<froud> as per profile targets from mgalvin we now have three faq guides for kde
<jsgotangco> whoa
<froud> naturally since the books are not properly profiled yet, and kde does not really feature much there are problems in the content
<jsgotangco> theres so much kde love
<froud> kde is love
<froud> jsgotangco: also note the comments in http://lnix.net/~froud/status/kqg-report.html
<jsgotangco> checking
<froud> js you will also find less helpwanted items
<froud> I managed to write a few sects more last night
<rob^> froud, just emailed another patch, broken up this time as you suggested
* rob^ goes to cook dinner
<froud> enjoy
<froud> rob^: a new one you're ona role dude
<froud> jsgotangco: the power of profiles is strong
<froud> jsgotangco: you see the qg-report
<froud> jsgotangco: if authors learn things about a specific application like the kynaptic story, they can make note of it inline to the document and it will appear in the report
<froud> I think it is a good way of bringing important stuff to author attention
<froud> and it keeps the notes inline to the xml src
<froud> all we need do when we're finished is remove or comment out the authorblurbs
* froud goes on school run
<jsgotangco> froud, i will revisit the doc later it seems a lot had changed and is very interesting
<froud> jsgotangco: yes, many things will change
<froud> jsgotangco: I want to change the structure so that text is first, then images. what do you think?
<jsgotangco> text first is much better IMO, since images tend to distract the attention of the reader
<jsgotangco> hence if the eyes see the images first, they tend not to read the text
<jsgotangco> because most of the time, the image is self-explanatory as in the case of the kqg
<froud> yes, I also think so. if you look at the kubuntu system settings it works better
<froud> btw the images are there for all kde-systemsettings it means anyone can write the parts marked 'help wanted'
<jsgotangco> yeah im going to update my kubuntu later to breezy
<froud> jsgotangco: its a bit broke atm
* froud goes to switch machines
<jsgotangco> froud, because of X?
<froud> yes
<froud> must take my wife to doctor bll
<mdke> morning all
<mdke> hi jsgotangco !
<jsgotangco> hey!
<mdke> jsgotangco, how cool is all the faqguide love?
<mdke> has mgalvin got his commit account yet?
<jsgotangco> no idea
<jsgotangco> well the faqguide thing was done by rob
<jsgotangco> (mostly though)
<mdke> yeah they are both working on it
<mdke> doing some great stuff by the looks of things
<Kinnison> Burgundavia: viruses :-)
<jsgotangco> mdke: blasts in london?
<jsgotangco> (must be G8 related)
<jsgotangco> later
<froud> mdke: are you OK?
<mdke> froud, yeah
<froud> OK. Hope nobody u know was caught in this mess
<mdke> so far everyone I know is present and correct
<froud> having lived in Israel for 10-years I know how it feels
<mdke> its easy days but it looks like we may have been lucky
<mdke> at least compared to previous attacks in madrid and so on
<mdke> i just hope that there is no more to come
<froud> never lucky when this kind of thing is so cold
<froud> hapy to hear you are OK
<mdke> thanks
<froud> no bad luck on my family side
<froud> nobody wa sin London
<mdke> good
<Njal> lo
<mgalvin> hi all
<Njal> mdke, you ok? No where near the events were you?
<froud> hey Njal hey mgalvin 
<Njal> lo all
<Njal> How everyone? 
<froud> working
<Njal> ah yes, something i really should be doing
<mdke> Njal, no i'm good, thanks
<mdke> mgalvin, got that svn account yet?
<mdke> how are you Njal ?
<Njal> Im good, my mate just left a station as it went up so he's a bit shook up but ok.
<mdke> that's the important thing
<Njal> yeah
<mdke> similar experience for a friend of mine
<Njal> It really is terrible
<mgalvin> mdke, argh, not yet :-/... glad to hear you guys are ok over there
<mdke> yeah
<Njal> Um remember i submitted that patch for the command line, within the ubuntu-gnome-userguide? I needs to sound less chatty, i was wondering if there was a web link you had i could look at to make it less so
<Njal> um
<mdke> sure
<mdke> check out our styleguide, it has a number of good links :)
<mdke> right now the section on grammar isn't done, but if you refer to one of the links, you'll find some good stuff
<Njal> got it
<Njal> um i think
<mgalvin> mdke, i asked elmo yesterday also, he said he would do it in a sec, then i did not hear from him again... he does know about it, but i know he is busy
<mdke> yep
<Soneras> hi there
<mdke> hi Soneras!
<froud> hi
<Soneras> froud: took a bit longer. joind ubuntu-docs ...pretty quiet place, hehe
<froud> Soneras: we try to get screenshots aligned with release artwork
<froud> but sometimes it is not realistic
<froud> providing that a screen is correct, then the look and feel is a second item
<Soneras> yes, I see. That's why I ask early. Though that taking some screenshots (which takes time) could already been done by me
<froud> yes, you can do screenshots for german
<froud> say for kubuntu quick guide
<froud> Soneras: you should also meet mdke 
* mdke waves
* Soneras waves back
<froud> he is the one leading i18n
<froud> mdke: Soneras is on kubuntu
<froud> eager to translate
<mdke> cool
<froud> he would like to work in svn for now
<Soneras> but I have to warn you, I'm completely new to translating...
<mdke> translation work?
<froud> and then upload to rosetta
<mdke> Soneras, our translation won't start yet until we freeze the documents...
<Soneras> I know, froud told me.
<mdke> cool
<froud> mdke: I think it may help if you explain tools
<froud> pot/po etc
<mdke> Soneras, you don't like Rosetta?
<mdke> froud, ok happy to
<mdke> but in rosetta it doesn't need much explanation :D
<Soneras> oh I would like to work with rosetta
<Soneras> haven't done this yet, but from what I know it's a simple web frontend
<mdke> great
<mdke> that's correct
<Soneras> but as far as i understand theres no kubuntu doc in rosetta yet
<mdke> Soneras, we will have our documents in Rosetta so that everyone can work on them using their web browsers
<mdke> Soneras, our breezy documentation will go into Rosetta when frozen. Right now there is only hoary documentation
<mdke> the best thing is probably to wait until the docs are done. At that stage I will send a lot of emails to mailing lists and LoCoTeams and so on to announce that there is a lot of translation to be done ;)
<Soneras> you freeze with the rest of Ubuntu, right? When was this again?
<mdke> september the 8th
<mdke> hmm
<Soneras> so there's a month for the translation. sounds doable - with a webfrontend more people should be willing to help out
<mdke> Soneras, that's right. It doesn't sound like a long time, but translation can continue also after Breezy is released, and the extra translations can go in as updates
<mdke> also the documentation will be really good so hopefully people will be interested in translating it :)))
<Soneras> how will the docs be available anyway? everything will be in a big .deb? and translations will have their own deb, containing everything that has been translated into that language? 
<mdke> i don't know
<Soneras> mdke, you work on the whole ubuntu documentation? or 'only' kubuntu?
<mdke> i use Ubuntu mainly
<froud> mdke: lang packs
<mdke> froud, no chance
<froud> why not?
<mdke> last time I asked pitti, he said it would be really hard
<froud> can see why
<mdke> i would think that ubuntu-doc-xx would be the way forward, but we can talk to him about it
<froud> yeah
<froud> I dont think people what 250 MB of docs installed in every lang
<mdke> i agree :D
<Soneras> hehe, ok maybe not
<froud> Soneras: for kubuntu we will pack like kde does
<mdke> kde l10n will be in a language-pack
<mdke> maybe if we get pitti to package them, he can organise it so that the language detector used by the installer will also install the correct language of documentation
<froud> mdke: exactly
<froud> and default to en if != xx
<mdke> yeah
<mdke> i think he has quite a clever language detector in mind
<mdke> i think i will speak to him soon about this, never to early to start planning
<froud> sure
* froud goes back to writing
<mdke> Soneras, if you have any questions about Rosetta, feel free to ask
<Soneras> yes, anything kubuntu releated that will be used in breezy already there I can work on?
<Soneras> oh, and does rosetta include translated screenshots as well?
<mdke> 1. yes: kubuntu is in rosetta under breezy, but no documentation yet
<mdke> 2. i will have to investigate what to do with screenshots
<Soneras> I'll wait a bit with that as well, cause I guess I'd be pretty frustrated if I did a lot of screenshots that became outdated ;)
<mdke> well there is now an official Ubuntu artwork team
<mdke> since this week
<mdke> but i presume that artwork will be released late as usual :(
<Soneras> do they work on the kubuntu part as well?
<mdke> not sure
<mdke> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ArtTeam
<mdke> that would be worth investigating
<jjesse> i thought the goal was to have the art work more focused for breezy, i remember reading that some where 
<mdke> yep
<mdke> that doesn't mean they will release it earlier tho ;)
<Soneras> hmm, from what I can they seem rather Ubuntu specific, guess it won't affect kubuntu very much =)
<mdke> kubuntu has good artwork iirc
<mdke> they should combine
<froud> Soneras: most of kde art is a kde-log.org
<froud> kde-look.org
<froud> various widgets in kde let you just preview and install artwork from kde-look.org
<Soneras> yes, KDE has very good artwork. It's just not kubuntu specific. Do you know if there'll be some more in breezy than there was in hoary, froud?
<Soneras> not that hoary's kubuntu artwork was bad ;)
<froud> Well kde-look.org now has several kubuntu themes and wallpapers
<froud> Soneras: I have something for you to do :-)
* Soneras jumps up an down
<froud> You know the Kubuntu Quick Guide
<Soneras> aye
<froud> Well you may have noticed that
<froud> the screenshot comes first and then the text
<Soneras> yes
<froud> we want to change the order of that
<froud> text first, screenshot after
<froud> perhaps you can cut and past the text from after screenshots and paste it before the screenshot?
<froud> it would be a great help
<froud> one less thing to do later
<froud> and would get you familiar with the doc
<Soneras> and the whole system (svn and such) yes, sounds ok to me
<Soneras> copy, paste. ok :)
<froud> just that document
<froud> I believe you also have a working copy
<Soneras> I do, but just to be sure I have to do "svn up" correct?
<froud> yes
<froud> I will not work on it more today
<Soneras> ok, I'll have a look
<froud> so as to keep out of your way
<Soneras> ah, now I see it's only one big xml - thought it was divided into several pieces.
<froud> no one xml-instance
<froud> wen you have had enough just create a patch
<Soneras> you want the first paragraph of every section abovve the screenshot?
<froud> yes
<froud> Any text below the image should be above it
<froud> Of ocurse if you feel that a para or note should go below the image then use your discretion
<Soneras> you already did at least the first ones, didn't you?
<froud> Some of the first ones are done
<froud> and some don't have screenshots
<froud> so not a problem
<Soneras> ok, last to-be-sure question:
<Soneras> now there is:
<Soneras> "KPDF is a KDE PDF viewer based on the xpdf code. Although being based on xpdf code, KPDF has some unique features like continuous mode, presentation support, etc.
<Soneras> For more information see the KPDF manual."
<froud> shoot :-)
<Soneras> image above that
<Soneras> I'd make it:
<Soneras> "KPDF is a KDE PDF viewer based on the xpdf code. Although being based on xpdf code, KPDF has some unique features like continuous mode, presentation support, etc.
<Soneras> <image>
<Soneras> For more information see the KPDF manual."
<froud> Yep
<froud> nice
<Soneras> k
<froud> there are a number of refs to manuals the way you did it would be good
<Soneras> froud, how may I send you a patch file? 
<Soneras> I did the change up till utilities and maybe you'd like to check before I continue
<froud> Soneras: send to sean@inwords.co.za for now
<froud> For future you can join ubuntu-docs@lists and send patches there
<froud> accepted your dcc
<froud> Soneras: dcc failed connecting. try again
<Soneras> froud, ok one sec
<Soneras> works? otherwise I'll just mail
<froud> send mail it failed
<Soneras> ok
<froud> I am behind my firewall and I did not open that port
<Soneras> no problem
<froud> Soneras: cool looks good. why did you not do the login?
<Soneras> wasn't sure there, will fix it with the later sections
<froud> Soneras: patch applied you can svn up
<froud> oops wait a sec
<Soneras> what would've happened if I continued to work after the patch and then send you another patch? would tht still work?
<froud> no you would be sending me the first patch again
<froud> = extra
<froud> + extra
<froud> Soneras: Ok now you can svn up
<froud> that should merge the changes
<froud> and then you can svn diff kquickguide.xml > kquickguide.xml.diff next time you are ready
<froud> btw. no need to tar.gz
<Soneras> good. How / when are you goind to work on kquickguide? I'd like to do this tomorrow in one go, so I wouldn't start again today.
<froud> sure np
<froud> just always svn up before you start work
<froud> and svn up before you make patches
<Soneras> ah ok =) any more info I need to give when sending you patches via mail (in case you're not in irc) ?
<froud> no, just have fun
<froud> remember the guys here can also help
<mgalvin> is the svn server (downloading data) really slow for you guys? it has been for me for a few days
<jjesse> just started today, but a lot of my mailing lists and sites i've checked have been slow today
<Soneras> I'll be idle for the rest of the day, thanks for alle the help getting started.
<mgalvin> jjesse, ok, at least its not just me then, thnx
<froud> Soneras:  no, thanks to you
<froud> mgalvin: svn is working stong here
<mgalvin> i just did a fresh install of colony 2, did a fresh checkout from svn, its been downloading data for an hour and its still not done getting everything
<mgalvin> hmmm
<froud> hmm colony of ubuntu
<mgalvin> yea, breezy colony 2
<mgalvin> sorry yes ubuntu
<froud> svn has many files
<froud> but should co quick enough
<mgalvin> right, its usually really quick for me
<mgalvin> i have a 700+K/s cable connection, it usually flys by
<mgalvin> not a big deal, maybe i'll try getting back on hoary, and see if its better, maybe an issue with the nic driver in the new kernel, it does give me odd error messages when booting about eth0 anyhow
<mgalvin> gotta run, bbl
<froud> deb http://security.ubuntu.com/ubuntu hoary-security main restricted
<froud> what is the meaning of restricted
<Burgundavia> restricted is non-free stuff that is needed and security supported
<Burgundavia> currently the ati and nvidia drivers
<Burgundavia> and the eagle modem drivers
<froud> so why this
<froud> deb cdrom:[Kubuntu 5.04 _Hoary Hedgehog_ - Release i386 (20050407)] / hoary main restricted
<Burgundavia> the cd contians those drivers
<froud> Ah ha
<froud> yes I remember reading this somewhere
<froud> Burgundavia: cant remember, is hoary-security commented out by default?
<Burgundavia> shouldn't be
<Burgundavia> is it>
<Burgundavia> ?
<froud> cant remember
<Burgundavia> I am going to do a fresh hoary install next week, so I can tell you
<froud> I will go with common sense and say no
<Burgundavia> make a note, so we can confirm that
<froud> how r u dude. you have been here but not in person ;-)
<Burgundavia> looking for a job
<froud> any luck
<Burgundavia> and staying at other peoples places (my parents, my gfs)
<Burgundavia> no
<froud> that hard to find work in Canada?
<froud> Burgundavia: have you thought of starting your own business?
<froud> I am building kubuntu-docs-0.1ubuntu1 nightly, should I bump the ubuntu1 each night?
<froud> file:///home/sean/ubuntu-docs/trunk/build/kde/kquickguide
<froud> file:///home/sean/ubuntu-docs/trunk/build/kde/kuserguide
<froud> file:///home/sean/ubuntu-docs/trunk/build/kde/index.html
<froud> oops
<froud> sorry
<froud> or should I add ubuntu1-1 ubuntu1-2 ubuntu1-3
<uniq> hi froud, i think bumping it is a good idea. I can provide a script to scan the directory with the .deb for .debs and make it apt-getable too. if you want.
<froud> uniq: nice
<froud> uniq: ok from tomorrow I will start bumping it
<froud> method ubuntu1-1
<froud> or ubuntu1
<froud> ubuntu1-2 or ubuntu2
<uniq> ubuntu2
<froud> that will be a big number by release date
<uniq> you can bump the other numbers too.
<froud> what the debian numbers
<froud> uniq: do you see the blue callouts on this page http://lnix.net/~froud/kuserguide/C/ch38s02.html
<uniq> i was thinking 'kubuntu-docs-1:5.10-1ubuntu1' or something like that, for the release.
<uniq> yes, the blue squares.
<froud> according to riddle we cant change the debian numbers
<uniq> what debian numbers? 
<froud> yes blue squares in konqueror
<froud> use firefox
<froud> the 0.1 is the debian number
<uniq> the package is ours, debian does not provide this package, so we can change everything i guess? 
<uniq> unless it's frozen now.
<froud> Hmm
<froud> yes it is ours
<froud> but Riddell says not to change the debian number
<uniq> it's not included in breezy either.
<froud> well it will be
<froud> at least that is the idea
<uniq> i think he is talking about other packages. we don't change the debian/upstream version numbers when building software packages.
<froud> yeah I agree
<froud> so then we can just bump the 0.1
<uniq> i thiunk it would be nice if the docs package reflect the release version number. 5.10 for breezy.
<uniq> *think.
<froud> I like kubuntu-docs-5.10-1.1 kubuntu-docs-5.10-1.2 kubuntu-docs-5.10-1.3 etc.
<uniq> fine with me.
<froud> but we should speak to Riddell about it
<uniq> maybe -0.1 and so on before release? 
<froud> about that page, do you see how konqueror does the wrong thing
<uniq> it's nice to have 5.10-1.0 for release :)
<froud> yes
<uniq> oh.. i'll have to test with firefox.. hang on.
<froud> konqueror adds blue squares when they should be round and have numbers
<uniq> bugs.kde.org :)
<froud> so its on your system too
<uniq> btw. did you get your breezy running? 
<froud> the bug must be in kde-default.css
<froud> no not yet
<uniq> yes, firefox does this the proper way.
<uniq> I upgraded to breezy yesterday. 
<froud> I saw
<froud> and now your vts dont work :-)
<uniq> they do now, a reboot fixed it womehow.
<uniq> somehow.
<uniq> vodoo magic.
<froud> wow
<froud> voodoo indeed
<froud> what did you have to do to make breezy work
<froud> Riddell gave me some idea that hackery was needed
<uniq> changed the fontpaths in /etc/X11/xorg.conf to /usr/share/X11/fonts/ and that's about it.
<uniq> i had to force a overwrite on xorg-common too, if i recall correctly.
<froud> no dpkg-reconfigure kdm
<uniq> no.
<froud> Ok that's it
<uniq> dpkg -i --force-overwrite /var/cache/path/to/packagefailingtoinstall.deb 
<uniq> is the command to force overwriting.
<froud> when do I need to do that, after the upgrade finished
<uniq> when the upgrade stops with the error 'tried to overwrite XXX which is also in package XXX'
<froud> Ok I am getting errors about one of the repositories
<froud> cant remember now which
<froud> something in a Restricted
<Burgundavia> froud, no thanks
<froud> Burgundavia: you should you are good
<Burgundavia> my step-mother runs a small business
<Burgundavia> seems like a lot of work
<froud> yes, but worth it
<froud> the trick is to plan it that the people you employ do the work
<Burgundavia> right
<froud> in other words you dont work in the company, you go to work on the company
<froud> the first year or two are hard
<froud> after that it gets easier
<froud> geeze mdke is multipling
<froud> well http://lnix/~froud is updated
<Burgundavia> bloody english, having kids they can't blood feed
<froud> :-) on that note I am going to bed
<froud> c you in the morn
<mdke> ;)
#ubuntu-doc 2005-07-13
<mgalvin> hey rob^, been busy huh, great work :)
<mgalvin> rob^, one suggestion, if you use java 1.5 for the java section then the mozilla/firefox plugin will work
<mgalvin> either way i think we also need to determine how gij and the jre might effect each other, i have seen issues arise when both are on a system together
<rob^> yeah
<rob^> at least we now have a method that doesnt rely on bad repos :)
<rob^> I'll have another look at it
<rob^> mgalvin, blackdown doesnt seem to have an installer for 1.5 yet
<mgalvin> rob^, only sun has a working 1.5 implementation thus far
<rob^> http://serios.net/content/debian/java/with-java-package.php
<rob^> good page that
<mgalvin> cool
<rob^> once the apply the patch I just sent in, I'll update that java stuff
<mgalvin> rob^ did you "apply" for commit access yet, if not you should
<rob^> they are still getting around to adding an account for me
<mgalvin> same here, still waiting on mine too
<mgalvin> l8r
<rob^> has anyone applied my patch I sent eariler yet?
<rob^> ^earlier
<froud> morning
<rob^> morning, did you get my patch
<froud> yes I just applied it
<rob^> ty
<froud> np
<froud> in sources.list. If installation is done over network what will 
<froud> deb cdrom:[Kubuntu 5.04 _Hoary Hedgehog_ - Release i386 (20050407)] / hoary main restricted
<froud> be
<rob^> well that line points to your cd for a start
<froud> yes but what if I instaled from network
<rob^> just edit out that line and enable the other repos
<froud> FTP, TFTP
<froud> lets say I did not use a cd to install
<rob^> what are you trying to make apt do? not use the cd at all
<froud> I created a bootdisk and selected to install from a network resource
<rob^> yes
<froud> not trying to do anything
<froud> just trying to write about it
<rob^> oh
<froud> in breezy we are supposed to have network installation
<rob^> I would assume that there wouldn't be a line like that at all
<froud> so if user installs form NFS or TFP what will the line say
<froud> there should be
<froud> because there are many packages on the network share
<rob^> all the packages should be contained on what ever repo you installed from
<rob^> or network share
<froud> its just like copying the cd to a disk and exporting it using nfs
<rob^> hmm
<rob^> not sure, dont do to many installs like that
<Burgundavia> salut all
<Burgundavia> I love live cds
<Burgundavia> no more XP for me
<froud> XP you been on XP all this time
<Burgundavia> no
<Burgundavia> see planet.ubuntu
<Burgundavia> see planet.ubuntu0
<Burgundavia> hmm
<Burgundavia> right
<Burgundavia> I run Breezy at home
<froud> Burgundavia:  Ha ha when you gonna write to the docs?
<Burgundavia> when I get commit access
<Burgundavia> I havent been able to catch elmo again
<froud> did you send elmo your key again
<Burgundavia> I did
<froud> I think you need to send enrico you new key and let him do it
<Burgundavia> ok
<Burgundavia> once I get my machine booted at home I will do it
<Burgundavia> moving my gf this weekend, should be fun
<Burgundavia> all right, night
<froud> night
<froud> rob^: patches applied :-) thanks
<froud> bbl school run
<Liz> greetings froud
<froud> ello Liz
<froud> all good dwn there
<mdke_> morning everyone
<froud> morn, its near afternoon, you just woke up?
<mdke_> not entirely
<mdke_> its 10 o clock here but I've been up for a while
<Liz> its nearly 7.20pm here
<Liz> sorry, got distracted by themovie
<Liz> lilo and stitch..heh
<mdke_> awesome work on the faqguide rob^ 
<rob^> mdke, thanks
<Liz> bbtomorrow
<jjesse> morning everyone :)
<froud-work> morn dude
<froud-work> has anyone tried web-min on Ubuntu?
<jjesse> its probablly afternoon for you froud?
<froud-work> any suggestions other than web-min
<jjesse> you have to enable root before you can use webmin
<froud-work> yep noon
<jjesse> webmin requires a first sign on to be root and from localhost not from another box
<jjesse> so when i install it on my server w/o X installed i have to use lynx to sign on and allow other ip addresses
<froud-work> you cant login using the browser on another host?
<froud-work> or use ACLs
<jjesse> i'm not a webmin expert i just know when it is installed the first time it only accepts connections localy
<froud-work> Hmm, so you ssh in login with Lynx allow another IP-address rights then use that hosts web browser?
<jjesse> yes
<froud-work> why dont you just leave your hosts IP addres allowed?
<froud-work> or wont it allow the login despite knowing the IP address
<jjesse> hold on just setup a debian box checking how i did
<jjesse> just did an apt-get install webmin on a debian (sarge) box
<jjesse> and it setups webmin as only allow from listed addresses
<jjesse> and the listed addresses are 127.0.0.1
<froud-work> yes
<froud-work> add your host to th elist and you should be able to access from that hosts web browser and logon 
<jjesse> correct thats swhat i do
<froud-work> of course you need apache to make it available
<froud-work> and you can always secure the url with authentication
<jjesse> correct
<froud-work> so the user needs to logon twice
<jjesse> but w/ webmin under ubuntu you need to enable root first
<froud-work> jjesse: yes I expect it wont know what to do with sudo
<froud-work> jjesse: have you tried any other tools like webmin
<froud-work> jjesse: do any of them understand sudo
<jjesse> froud i haven't had a chance to really
<froud-work> :-) do what you know, no time for experiments :)
<jjesse> well i do experiment w/ lots of stuff, just haven't branched out from webmin
<jjesse> ls
<jjesse> doh wrong window :)
<jsgotangco> salut
* jsgotangco curses his broken laptop
<jsgotangco> what's been happening lately in ubuntu-doc?
<mdke> hey dude
<mdke> :)
<jsgotangco> mdke: you doing good?
<mdke> yes i'm ok
<mdke> you?
<jsgotangco> well my laptop got busted today
<mdke> bad news
<jsgotangco> i got myself a loaner but its running XP heh
<mdke> guess you need a new one eh?
<jsgotangco> well Taiwan-made laptops really dont last long
<mdke> haha
<jsgotangco> despite their great specs
<mdke> well fingers crossed on getting one off Canonical
<jsgotangco> hehe i thought they gave those already?
<mdke> dunno
<mdke> not to me!
<mdke> you neither huh?
<mdke> i don't think they've given em tbh
<jsgotangco> ahhh
<jsgotangco> jeezz xp fonts are really nice
* mdke slaps jsgotangco 
<jsgotangco> i tried running mIRC and i couldnt understand a thing
<jsgotangco> so i just downloaded gaim for win
<mdke> good call
<jsgotangco> actually i dumped all the free software i can get for windows
<mdke> :)
<mdke> the open cd?
<jsgotangco> the only non-free on this laptop is xp itself and PowerDVD
<jsgotangco> yeah, open cd and some more
<mdke> when I installed XP on my laptop recently I found some cool free stuff
<mdke> clamwin
<mdke> hahaha
<jsgotangco> haha
<mdke> hahaha
<mdke> anyhow as i was saying
<jsgotangco> pretty dumb exit key
<mdke> clamwin
<mdke> also some cool putty based scp stuff
<jsgotangco> hmm i have PuTTY
<jsgotangco> AbiWord
<jsgotangco> 7-zip
<mdke> even whois for windows ;)
<jsgotangco> its really nice
<jsgotangco> ooohh
<jsgotangco> hmmm what's SILC?
<mdke> no idea
<jsgotangco> JEEZZ
<mdke> ;)
<jsgotangco> the close button really closes gaim DUH
<mdke> windows is intuitive like that
<mdke> oh i see what you mean
<mdke> instead of minimising it?
<jsgotangco> yeah
<jsgotangco> really dumb for an IM
<jsgotangco> grrr local politics here really suck
<jsgotangco> we don't deserve a democracy :)
<mdke> they suck everywhere
<mdke> i have to go out, supermarket
<mdke> later mate
<jsgotangco> later
<jsgotangco> i gotta sleep too
<jsgotangco> (12:25AM)
<jsgotangco> froud: hey what's up buddy
<jsgotangco> oh well maybe later, good night anways its almost 2am
<Soneras> huhu, froud, you there?
<froud> Soneras: hi
<Soneras> ah, hi
<Soneras> some questions
<froud> sure
<Soneras> when I do a change (like now with the screenshots) and do an svn up before I make the diff, wouldn't that overwrite my changes?
<froud> no
<froud> svn up will merge changes into the xml instance
<froud> this way you can chck for C (conflict)
<froud> I am working in the Kubuntu System Settings section at present so, so long as you stay clear of that section we should not conflict
<Soneras> ok, next one (wasn't clear to me yesterday): when I send my changes as a diff to you. can I keep working with my current xml before my patch goes into svn and then send you more changes (including the previous ones)  and that would be ok?
<froud> so hack the src and trust svn
<Soneras> (haven't worked with any versioning system, thus the questions)
<froud> better to finish your work session then patch
<froud> wait for commit
<froud> and svn up again before new session
<Soneras> ok, thought small patches were better
<froud> yes but when making changes of the nature you are doing now, the fewer the better
<froud> however, if you are writing sections it is a good idea to patch small
<Soneras> hmm. yes, that's why I ask . I'm finished with the layout shifting stuff and do consider o write a bit (if that's ok)
<Soneras> sooo: when I change the actual docs (write some stuff, not just layout changes) you will review this (the english, writing layout) when I send you the patch? So I can basically edit, where I see fit? Adding some stuff, like more manual links and some more explanaitions (like kjobviewer and other one-sentence paragraphs).
<froud> sure
<Soneras> (sorry for the many questions)
<froud> no questions are good
<froud> just go ahead, scratch any itches you have and I will help
<froud> Soneras: a few others work on kubuntu here. they are jjesse judax gtaylor mgalvin
<Soneras> oh good, more people to annoy with questions ^^
<froud> hehe
<jjesse> grin i only use kubuntu
<jjesse> btw intereseting discussion on slashdot on the announcement about the ubuntu foundation
<Soneras> something kubuntu related? :D
<froud> url
<judax> Kubuntu rocks!
<froud> lol
<Soneras> hey, I like this channel
<jjesse> http://linux.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=05/07/08/1240241&tid=163
<froud> konqueror your desktop with konqi
<froud> sometimes we have kde vs. footprint wars ;-)
<judax> hehe, I have been spending some time in 'footprint' lately
<jjesse> gasp on purpose?
<Soneras> well, as long as they are less ugly as they get on slashdot sometimes... ;)
<froud> sabdfl is going for mass adoption now
<judax> yeah, just messing around, but I can't handle naut at all so I am not there long
<froud> critical mass that's how foss works
<Soneras> yeah, nautiluts (even the browser mode) is somewhat lacking, isn't it?
* judax agrees
<Soneras> froud: send you a patch - only the small layout changes. maybe I'll do some writing now (and the doc links). only system-settings is a no go at this time?
<jjesse> i feel so far behind in my contributions to the kuserguide :(
<judax> froud: are the kubuntu doc deb packages worked out yet?
<froud> Soneras: yes, leave that section
<froud> judax: yes, form tomorrow the name of the package is settled
<froud> judax: we will be using kubuntu-docs_5.10-0.1 kubuntu-docs_5.10-0.2 kubuntu-docs_5.10-0.3 etc
<froud> judax: then on release the number beocmes kubuntu-docs_5.10-1.0
<froud> judax: over the weekend kubuntu-docs is getting uploaded so we have a footprint in th edistro
<judax> froud: ok, are they hosted at http://lnix.net/~froud?
<mdke> are you putting po files in the upload package?
<froud> judax: yes, each night, providing there are changes, there is an update of that url and the package is built
<froud> mdke: no not yet
<mdke> ah ok good
<froud> mdke: thought we do that as per release schedule
<mdke> :)
<froud> right?
<judax> froud: ok, cool
<mdke> i agree yeah
<froud> jjesse: yes you are way behind dude
* judax needs to rip out his manual kubuntu doc install for khelpcenter now
* froud pinches jjesse 
<jjesse> grin thanks froud i know i'm way way behind
<jjesse> everyone else is writing so much more then me
<froud> jjesse: my stratergy is to write one section a day
<froud> jjesse: if I can do more I do
<judax> jjesse: I need to finish doc specs and do some writing too, been busy with work lately
<froud> judax: content in the docs take priority IMHO
<froud> specs, nice to have
<jjesse> froud any response on the whole kynaptic vs apt-get vs kapture debate?
<judax> froud: agreed
* jjesse doesn't subscribe to kubuntu-devel
<froud> jjesse: no, but as I learn things or notice them I add authorblurbs
<froud> these are displayed in the reports
<froud> so if these is a change or I think something needs note I mention it
<froud> speak of the devil
<froud> here's mgalvin 
<mgalvin> howdy
<froud> nearly all the Kubuntu team here tonight
<mgalvin> whats up
<froud> we're just discussing kubuntu docs
<froud> mgalvin: news is that kubuntu-docs_5.10_0.1_all.deb will be uploaded this weekend
<froud> so we have a footprint in the daily builds
<mgalvin> cool
<froud> mgalvin: hows work
<froud> stuf working, getting funding
<froud> jjesse: its good to authorblurb if you find or learn something
<froud> is everybody cool with the way Kubuntu docs is working at present?
<jjesse> yes i am cool :)
<judax> yeah
<jjesse> froud are you cool?
<judax> were you referencing something more specific?
<froud> yeah, I just tend to move ahead and forget that others are lost
<froud> so just making sure
<froud> I think the main thing to focus on now is the content
<froud> outlines are there, make system and packaging system
<froud> oh and preview system
<mgalvin> froud, funding? for what
<judax> I will certainly ask if I get too lost
<froud> mgalvin: never mind :-) r you cool with the way kubuntu-docs is going
<mdke> funding?
<froud> mdke: never mind
<mdke> too late for that now
<froud> geeze mention money and everybody is here
* mdke nods
<judax> froud said he was funding new laptops for the doc team
<mgalvin> i just didn't know what you meant, i don't work where funding is needed
<froud> mgalvin: no matter
<mgalvin> yes, i'm cool with how kubuntu-docs is going :)
<froud> ok
<mdke> froud, its unusual of you to mention something then say "oh never mind" as if something secret is going on
<mdke> its normal that people are gonna ask
<froud> lol
<froud> do the ppl working on kubuntu think that they can each contribute one sect a day between now and string freeze
<jjesse> when is string freeze?
* judax ponders that a moment
<mgalvin> that sounds resonable... what about the ubuntu docs (gnome focused)? since i use ubuntu, i will be contributing more of that content
<judax> my issue will be that fact that I will be going on a 2-week vacation starting 7/16 and will be traveling
<mdke> mgalvin, no strict rules about contributions on the ubuntu docs to my knowledge
<froud> judax: ok can you do what you can?
<judax> froud: you bet
<froud> mdke: when is string freeze again?
<froud> judax: just take one section a day and write it
<mdke> 7th september iirc
<froud> judax: big or small
<mgalvin> svn commit access, argh :)
<mdke> mgalvin, we've been bugging elmo, also I asked henrik to bug him about it
<froud> jjesse: can you do a section a day?
* mdke cracks whip
<jjesse> i will try my hardest
<froud> just for the record these are not strict rules
<froud> just trying to get momentum on the work
<froud> I find that if I do a section a day that it soon amounts to lots of work
<froud> and the work becomes fun
<froud> if I leave it then I find it hard to get started and going is slwo
<froud> think it may be the same of others
<jjesse> i thought work got fun when you got paid for it :P
<froud> you want to get paid?
<jjesse> grin nope just joking :)
<froud> what country are you in again?
<jjesse> us :)
<froud> Ah yes
<jjesse> i'm joking about getting paid to docs, trying be a smartass
<froud> I know
<judax> froud: sorry had to attend to work, I will try
<froud> OK
<froud> just do your best
<froud> i figure if we each do a section a day that soon we will have completed a whole chunk of the work
<froud> and we can start improving and tweaking
<froud> splitting hairs and all that stuff
<judax> one of our best storage architects just resigned, trying to put out fires
<froud> yeah
<froud> fires are nasty
<judax> daily seems like
<froud> judax: your in the us also right?
<judax> yes, austin, texas
<froud> and where is jjesse ?
<froud> k
<froud> Im back to work
<judax> ok
<mdke> ok i have wangled some webspace for ubuntu preview and status docs
<mdke> thanks go to tseng
<froud> cool
<mdke> will build, upload and email later
<mdke> bbl
<mgalvin> i don't get it, all of my network speeds to ubuntu servers are at less then 5k/s, its taking forever to check out ubuntu-doc
<froud> you still on breezy?
<mgalvin> i just tried downloading the fedora iso to see if it me, i get 800k/s to their servers
<mgalvin> yes
<mgalvin> on breezy
<froud> hmm I just did a deb build, it svn co from canonical at good spead
<froud> speed
<mgalvin> maybe a bad link btwn new york and your side of the globe
<froud> I'm in co.za
<froud> my traffic goes via new york
<mgalvin> hmm
<mgalvin> za goes thru the us, i didn't know that
<froud> yeah, depends on your ISP
<mdke> connects quite well here afaics
<froud> mdke: the server is right next door to you ;-)
<froud> mdke: cool on the web space
<mdke> true and yeah
<froud> beats waiting for people
<froud> :-)
<mdke> agreed
<froud> lemme know if you need help with anything
<mdke> i was already thinking of something ;)
<mdke> i need to edit some files to include the gentoo address for the stylesheets
<froud> I am mostly focusing on Kubuntu, but I dont want to see Ubuntu suffer for no good reason
<mdke> can you tell me which files I need to edit?
<froud> the xsl's in libs/
<mdke> all of em?
<froud> no, just a sec lemme see
<froud> why you working on gentoo anyways
<froud> that thing is only good for servers
<mdke> hmm i wouldnt run it on a server ;)
<mdke> its fun to play with tho
<froud> no gentoo on server is good
<mdke> right now my laptop is at the menders
<mdke> it will be back next week but right now i need to use gentoo
<froud> ok looks like jeffsch has the make system for ubuntu working from gnome/Makefile
<froud> in Makefile you need to change 
<froud> else
<froud> # SuSE
<froud> NWDBXSL=/usr/share/xml/docbook/stylesheet/nwalsh/current/html/docbook.xsl
<froud> endif
<mdke> you adapted the stylesheet address for suse too right? I could just add it underneath
<froud> no you need to replace
<froud> or do an elseif
<froud> just replace
<mdke> ok
<froud> then see gnome/libs/gnome-ubuntu.xsl
<froud> change the import
<froud> <xsl:import href="/usr/share/xml/docbook/stylesheet/nwalsh/html/profile-chunk.xsl"/>
<froud> do you build styleguide?
<mdke> i'll build anything
<froud> then do the same in libs/style-guide-html.xsl
<mdke> right
<froud> that's it I think
<mdke> now i just need to find the right address
<froud> address?
<mdke> for gentoo stylesheets
<froud> Ah should be under the same area
<froud> but may use current/
<froud> here somewhere /usr/share/xml/docbook/stylesheet/nwalsh/current/
<mdke> /usr/share/sgml/docbook/xsl-stylesheets-1.68.1/html/profile-chunk.xsl
<mdke> ??
<froud> yes those are the old paths
<froud> do you have the new ones
<mdke> those are the only files called profile-chunk.xsl
<froud> then gentoo still uses the old path
<froud> cool
<froud> Updated http://www.lnix.net/~froud/
<jeffsch> http://mypage.uniserve.ca/~jeffsch/writing/styleguide/index.html
<jeffsch> style guide previews
<froud> cool jeffsch 
<mdke> jeffsch, if you like I can put them on tseng's webspace, your call
<jeffsch> doh! I just spent the morning setting it up...
<jeffsch> but i will keep it for now
<mdke> no problem if we leave it there
<froud> he he
<jeffsch> if my isp complains about traffice, then I will go to tseng
<mdke> i'll just upload the gnome things then
<froud> yep, good idea
<mdke> hmm
<mdke> some issues building
<mdke> I get a lot of "No localization exists for "c" or "". Using default "en"." Is that bad?
<mdke> by a lot, I mean a lot
<mdke> (am doing make all)
<froud> normal and wanted
<froud> :-)
<mdke> ah
<mdke> it fails at about-ubuntu
<mdke> i need to edit /libs/about-ubuntu-html-cust.xml i think
<mdke> that one is built separately?
<mdke> i edited that one, now "make all" has stopped at faqppc
<mdke> Complete. Find outputs at ../build/gnome/faqppc/
<mdke> (arg: 2) 
<mdke> it wants me to tell it something?
<froud> huh
<mdke> i pressed return and it returned me to the prompt
<mdke> dunno what that (arg: 2) means
<froud> when it says that then it should be finished
<mdke> ok it looked like it was finished
<mdke> has it built status reports too?
<jeffsch> mdke: are the files in build/gnome/gaqppc?
<mdke> looks like it
<froud> chaps I must call it a night
<mdke> ok thanks for your help froud 
<froud> mdke: nice one on the webspace
<jeffsch> later dude
<mgalvin> gnight froud
<froud> jeffsch: nice one on the style guide
<mdke> jeffsch, has "make all" updated the things in build/status for me?
<jeffsch> hold on, i'll take a look at the makefile
<froud> look forward to seeing ubuntu-docs_5.10-0.1_all.deb hitting the nightly builds
<mdke> heh
<mdke> i'm uploading
<mdke> its 31MB so it will be a short while
<froud> have you optimized
<mdke> i haven't done anything
<jeffsch> mdke: build/status is updated when you do make all
<mdke> jeffsch, rock!
<mdke> ok its nearly done uploading
<mdke> jeffsch, now all we need to do is make a package ;)
<mdke> what was that froud said about optimising?
<jeffsch> i have no idea
<mdke> must have been a way to make images smaller
<mdke> http://tseng2.ath.cx/~ubuntu-doc/
<mdke> i'll update the wiki
<jeffsch> awesome man. and it works too!
<mdke> :)
<mdke> thanks for all your work on the build docs
<jeffsch> anh, twernt nuthin :)
<mdke> hmm
<mdke> no faqguide status
<jeffsch> faqguide status is not in makefile
<jeffsch> hold on a sec, i'll add it.
<jeffsch> mdke: add gnome/default.css to http://tseng2.ath.cx/~ubuntu-doc/
<mdke> ok will do that
<mdke> wiki page should be sorted now
<jeffsch> ok. svn up and try "make status"
<mdke> i ought to set up an rsync cron job to do some automatic upload
<mdke> s
<jeffsch> when you do, lemme know so i can copy it
<jeffsch> i know nothing about that stuff
<mdke> jeffsch, ok css is there
<jeffsch> awesome
<mdke> jeffsch, can we get default.css in build/gnome/?
<mdke> actually maybe unnecessary
<jeffsch> i have a default.css in my build/gnome
<mdke> not me
<mdke> i uploaded the whole folder
<jeffsch> hmm... i must have put it there myself. I don't remember doing it, but that's not surprising!
<mdke> ;)
<jeffsch> oh wait! it's put there when you build the style guide, so if you didn't build the styleguide, then it won't be there
<jeffsch> i can change that though, if you want, so that it always goes there
<jeffsch> you can do it yourself if you want... see the lines
<jeffsch> 	# copy style sheet to build directory
<jeffsch> 	cp default.css ../build/gnome/default.css
<jeffsch> in the makefile?
<mdke> i will look
<jeffsch> never mind... I'm testing it now...
<mdke> i guess we will need it for the proper css when we build the final files
<mdke> ok I am experimenting with rsync
<mdke> doesn't look like it will work on tseng's server
<mdke> jeffsch, here is a guide on how to do it though http://www.jdmz.net/ssh/
<mdke> ah cool it works for tseng's server too
#ubuntu-doc 2005-07-14
<jeffsch> ok, i added 'cp default.css ../build/gnome/default.css' to the all target
<jeffsch> it will copy when you do make all
<jeffsch> bbl
<mdke> jeffsch, thanks :)
<mdke> --> bed
<jsgotangco> mdke: ping
<jsgotangco> hmm maybe later im going to eat breakfast first
<jsgotangco> later then
<rob^> whoa thunderbird keeps dieing everytime I select an email..
<squinn> hey. whoever's here -- can you check status on my svn account? it's been almost 2 weeks since james @ canonical has gotten back to me
<mgalvin> squinn, i've been waiting a week for mine too
<mgalvin> so has rob^
<mgalvin> elmo moved houses, so he's been busy with that i think
<squinn> ah okay, but i think mine's past elmo now
<squinn> it went from enrico to james troup
<mgalvin> squinn, well, mostly the gnome faq guide, but i am modify the menu entities to reflect the breezy menus
<squinn> ah are you running breezy?
<mgalvin> yup :)
<squinn> mgalvin, what are restricted modules?
<squinn> i have an  idea of what they are
<squinn> but say i need linux-wlan-ng and ndiswrapper to get my web up 
<squinn> that requires linux headers
<mgalvin> those are kernel modules, i'm not exactly sure why they are called restricted
<squinn> but if i compiled them by source, they wouldn't work?
<squinn> seems like it works when you compile from source
<squinn> i'm going to try to live on the wild side and upgrade
<squinn> no dist-upgrade; just upgrade
<mgalvin> when running breezy its usaully best to use upgrade or install specific update that you know will not break your system
<jeffsch> mgalvin: thanks for the patches.
<jeffsch> mgalvin: your choice of subject line for the emails made it easier
<jeffsch> mgalvin: and putting the svn change message in the body was good too
<jeffsch> good stuff
<mgalvin> jeffsch, i'm glad to help :)
<jeffsch> :)
<mgalvin> jeffsch, ok so now all the currently existing gnome menu entries reflect breezy
<mgalvin> i am going to add some new ones too, and add them to gnome-menus-C.ent file
<jeffsch> whew!
<mgalvin> :)
<mgalvin> should i post new ones as just the new file. or should i post them as diffs
<mgalvin> whatever is easier for you
<jeffsch> if it's a brand new file that does not already exist in svn, then post the file
<mgalvin> ok
<mgalvin> jeffsch, what do you think about gedit... gedit.xml or text-editor.xml
<mgalvin> its text editor in the menu
<jeffsch> text-editor.xml
<jeffsch> you never know when TPTB may decide to change editors
<mgalvin> right ok
<mgalvin> ok time for a break :)
<froud> African Greetings
<mgalvin> froud, American Greetings :)
<froud> ooooh, now that's nice menus are updated to 5.10 :-) go mgalvin 
<mgalvin> and more on the way :)
<froud> nice
<froud> whoohoo mdke has preview page up
<froud> looks like things are rock'n and a dock'n on ubuntu
<mgalvin> yup, we're on a roll today
<froud> cool
<mgalvin> ok its 2:40 am here time for bed, good night guys, c y'all l8r
<mdke> morning
* mdke checks his email
<mdke> holy shit
<froud> nice to see heh :-)
<mdke> has all of mgalvin's stuff been applied?
<mdke> 82 mails this morning...
* mdke goes off to look for elmo
<froud> mdke: not yet I was about to apply the stuff from this morning, jeffsch did yesterdays stuff
<mdke> ok do you mind doing it or do you want me to do some?
* froud nods, yes get elmo and beat him with a stick please
* mdke refers froud to his last question
<froud> mdke: I am in the process of applying this mornings work
<froud> jeff did last nights
<mdke> froud, question was, do you want me to help with this mornings?
<froud> Ah, not to worry the files are already saved to my disk I just need to add them to svn and commit
<froud> thanks
<froud> enjoy your morning coffee
<mdke> ok cool
<mdke> good idea
<mdke> i can listen to great britain getting thrashed at rugby again
<froud> all done, now send mail to list
<mdke> just do one mail if i were you
<froud> you asked I did, sire
* mdke waits for email
<froud> sent at 10H23
<mdke> lists are slow i guess
<mdke> froud, you got a moment to help me with something?
<froud> yep
<mdke> i'm trying to learn how to use Xinclude
<froud> ok
<mdke> is it possible to include just sections of another xml file, or do I have to include the whole file?
<froud> XInclude is for whole files
<froud> XPointer for a selected node
<mdke> ah
<froud> To use XPointer you need to understand XPath
<froud> It's not hard to use XPointer
<froud> let me just get the section you need to read
<mdke> i'm at http://www.sagehill.net/docbookxsl/DuplicateIDs.html
<froud> oh yes
<froud> that's the one
<mdke> and i've got http://www.sagehill.net/docbookxsl/ModularDoc.html open
<froud> yes
<froud> now you need tutorial for xpointer
<froud> see http://www.zvon.org
<froud> like this example
<mdke> ok
<froud> <xi:include  href="module.xml"
<froud>                  xpointer="xpointer(/section/*)"  
<froud>                  xmlns:xi="http://www.w3.org/2001/XInclude"/>
<froud> <xi:include  href="module.xml"
<froud>                  xpointer="xpointer(/section/*)"  
<froud>                  xmlns:xi="http://www.w3.org/2001/XInclude"/>
<froud> the oops
<froud> the
<froud> the /section/* is an XPath expression
<froud> by building an XPath you can extract any node in the document
<mdke> ok
<froud> The rest if straight forward, right?
<mdke> ok so /section/ is like an id for a particular part of the document?
<froud> it's an expression
<froud> it means that it will bring back all nodes in parent of <section>
<mdke> hmm
<froud> For example
<froud> I want to list all the parts in a document
<froud> I would do //part
<froud> for the kubuntu user guide that would return
<froud> /book[1] /part[1]  - id="prt-intro" status="review"	kuserguide.xml	file:/home/sean/ubuntu-docs/trunk/kde/kuserguide/C/kuserguide.xml	126:0
<froud> /book[1] /part[2]  - id="prt-confighardware" status="help"	kuserguide.xml	file:/home/sean/ubuntu-docs/trunk/kde/kuserguide/C/kuserguide.xml	360:0
<froud> /book[1] /part[3]  - id="prt-kdesktop" status="help"	kuserguide.xml	file:/home/sean/ubuntu-docs/trunk/kde/kuserguide/C/kuserguide.xml	412:0
<froud> /book[1] /part[4]  - id="prt-internet" status="help"	kuserguide.xml	file:/home/sean/ubuntu-docs/trunk/kde/kuserguide/C/kuserguide.xml	450:0
<froud> /book[1] /part[5]  - id="prt-office" status="help"	kuserguide.xml	file:/home/sean/ubuntu-docs/trunk/kde/kuserguide/C/kuserguide.xml	501:0
<froud> /book[1] /part[6]  - id="prt-graphics" status="help"	kuserguide.xml	file:/home/sean/ubuntu-docs/trunk/kde/kuserguide/C/kuserguide.xml	606:0
<froud> /book[1] /part[7]  - id="prt-multimedia" status="help"	kuserguide.xml	file:/home/sean/ubuntu-docs/trunk/kde/kuserguide/C/kuserguide.xml	658:0
<froud> /book[1] /part[8]  - id="pt-expanding" status="writing"	kuserguide.xml	file:/home/sean/ubuntu-docs/trunk/kde/kuserguide/C/kuserguide.xml	702:0
<froud> this here is an XPath
<froud>  this /book[1] /part[1] 
<mdke> ok
<froud> so there is one book node
<froud> and this is the first <part> node in the book
<mdke> so if you wanted to include part 6 you'd do: xpointer="xpointer(/part/prt-graphics)" ?
<froud> no
<froud> gimme a sec
<froud> this if I want to list all sect1
<froud> I do //sect1
<froud> I get /book[1] /part[5] /chapter[1] /sect1[1]  - status="help" kuserguide.xml file:/home/sean/ubuntu-docs/trunk/kde/kuserguide/C/kuserguide.xml 512:0
<mdke> where do you give that command?
<froud> many items like that
<froud> I use a structure xml editor that supports XPath
<mdke> ah
<froud> OK so if I want a specific node
<froud> your question
<froud> let's say you want to include a part from one book to another
<froud> the part has an id attribute of  prt-office
<mdke> yes
<froud> to return that node only you would do //part[@id="prt-office"] 
<froud> the result /book[1] /part[5]  - id="prt-office" status="help" kuserguide.xml file:/home/sean/ubuntu-docs/trunk/kde/kuserguide/C/kuserguide.xml 501:0
<mdke> sure
<froud> therefore you can do xpointer="xpointer(/part[@id="prt-office"] )
<mdke> aha
* mdke writes down
<froud> so you can include all nodes
<froud> xpointer="xpointer(/part[2] /chapter[1] /*)
<froud> return all nodes in first chapter of part two
<froud> be sure that when you do this that the nodes returned will be valid in context of your document structure
<mdke> the target document?
<froud> yes
<froud> otherwise the document become invalid
<mdke> so the parts/chapters have to be the same in both?
<froud> yes
<froud> you cant bring the child nodes of chapter into part because sect1 is not valid under part
<mdke> yes i see
<froud> play with the xpath tut on zon
<froud> zvon
<mdke> can i bring the child nodes of chapter into sect1?
<froud> you can do amazing stuff with XPath
<froud> no
<mdke> ok
<mdke> only into chapter
<froud> sect1/sect1 will not be good
<froud> but ifyou have chapter/sect1/para
<froud> then you can bring the para into sect1 as sect1/para is valid
<mdke> right
<mdke> so the best thing is to include things para by para
<froud> There is a java-based tool called treebeard that may be of help to you
<mdke> i'm willing to try and learn the basics, i like learning new things
<mdke> i'll need to do a bit of reading of course
<froud> checkout this http://treebeard.sourceforge.net/
<froud> it will help you test your Xpaths
<froud> make life easier for you in building XPaths that work
<mdke> ah that does look pretty awesome
<mdke> thanks froud 
<mdke> i'll dig in
<froud> np xpath is fun enjoy
<mdke>  [10:12]  < froud> xpointer="xpointer(/part[2] /chapter[1] /*)
<mdke> is that example, does the first " get closed?
<froud> yes you need to close the value
<mdke> so it would be xpointer="xpointer(blah)" ?
<froud> xpointer="xpointer(/part[2] /chapter[1] /*)"
<mdke> okay gotcha
<froud> the validate.sh supports XInclude/XPointer so that will also help
<froud> Ok I must go for awhile. see you later, lemme know if it works for you.
<froud> mdke: is it working for you?
<mdke> froud, no :)
<froud> error messages?
<mdke> let me show you what i did
<froud> k
<mdke> <xi:include href="../../upstream/gnome/update-manager/C/update-manager.xml" xpointer="xpointer(/sect1[@id="intro"] )" xmlns:xi=@http://www.w3.org/2001/XInclude" /> 
<froud> what doc is this in?
<mdke> i get 3 errors on that ;)
<mdke> its in userguide.xml
<froud> k
<froud> errors?
<mdke> http://pastebin.com/309959
<froud> there is no sect1 with @id of that value
<froud> do you have a <sect1 id="intro"> in ../../upstream/gnome/update-manager/C/update-manager.xml
<mdke> yes - <sect1 id="intro">
<mdke> unless I got the number of ../../ wrong
<froud> hold
<froud> you do but it has a parent so use article/sect1[@id="intro"] 
<froud> xpointer="xpointer(/article/sect1[@id="intro"] )
<mdke> I see!
<mdke> hmm
<mdke> same errors
<froud> try also //sect1[@id="intro"]  but I dont think it supports that
<mdke> same errors on both
<mdke> possibly an error in my structure
<froud> Hmm I am assuming your wc of userguide.xml has xinclude enabled?
<mdke> i haven't included any tags yet I just wrote the xinclude bit
<mdke> aha
<mdke> i don't know
<mdke> maybe not, its the same as your svn copy
<froud> OK
<froud> add this to your external ent set
<froud> <!ENTITY % xinclude SYSTEM "../../../libs/xinclude.mod">
<froud> %xinclude;
<froud> between the []  in the top of the file
<mdke> gotcha
<froud> then save and try it
<mdke> right that has got rid of the middle of the three errors
<froud> now what do you have>
<froud> pastebin
<mdke> http://pastebin.com/309963
<mdke> the problem may be because I haven't got any tags around it?
<froud> tags around it?
<mdke> here is the whole of what I've done, included the tag before and the tag after
<mdke> http://pastebin.com/309964
<mdke> maybe I have not got the structure right
<froud> try just do xpointer="intro"
<froud> start with the basic for now
<mdke> same errors
<froud> Hmm
<froud> weird
<froud> can you commit that so I can run it here
<mdke> do you have an example in the kubuntu docs of an xpointer?
<froud> Not yet
<mdke> i'm still convinced I've buggered up the structure
<mdke> ok i'll commit it
<mdke> froud, how do I commit without sending the changes I've made to the makefile for the gentoo paths?
<froud> just commit on the userguide.xml
<froud> cd to the userguide dir
<froud> svn commit -m sometext userguide.xml
<froud> something like that
<mdke> committed
<mdke> line 1514 is the problematic one
<froud> yep I see it
<froud> F Element type "xi:include" must be followed by either attribute specifications, ">" or "/>".	userguide.xml	file:/home/sean/projects/ubuntu/trunk/gnome/userguide/C/userguide.xml	1514:120
<mdke> what is wrong with it?
<froud> sec
<froud> -<xi:includehref="../../upstream/gnome/update-manager/C/update-manager.xml"xpointer="xpointer(/article/sect1[@id="intro"] )"xmlns:xi=@http://www.w3.org/2001/XInclude"/> 
<froud> +<xi:includehref="../../upstream/gnome/update-manager/C/update-manager.xml"xpointer="xpointer(/article/sect1[@id=intro] )"xmlns:xi="http://www.w3.org/2001/XInclude"/> 
<mdke> haha
<froud> xmlns:xi="http://www.w3.org/2001/XInclude" not xmlns:xi=@http://www.w3.org/2001/XInclude"
<froud> but this is not valid
<froud> E Unexpected element "xi:include". The content of the parent element type must match "(beginpage?,chapterinfo?,(title,subtitle?,titleabbrev?),(toc|lot|index|glossary|bibliography)*,tocchap?,(((calloutlist|glosslist|itemizedlist|orderedlist|segmentedlist|simplelist|variablelist|caution|important|note|tip|warning|literallayout|programlisting|programlistingco|screen|screenco|screenshot|synopsis|cmdsynopsis|funcsynopsis|classsynopsis|fieldsyn
<froud> E The content of element type "chapter" must match "(beginpage?,chapterinfo?,(title,subtitle?,titleabbrev?),(toc|lot|index|glossary|bibliography)*,tocchap?,(((calloutlist|glosslist|itemizedlist|orderedlist|segmentedlist|simplelist|variablelist|caution|important|note|tip|warning|literallayout|programlisting|programlistingco|screen|screenco|screenshot|synopsis|cmdsynopsis|funcsynopsis|classsynopsis|fieldsynopsis|constructorsynopsis|destruct
<mdke> yeah that's what I thought with the structure
<froud> well now you can work on your structure :-)
<froud> lemme commit
<mdke> np
<froud> done
<mdke> i still haven't got to grips with the whole structure thing but I can play around
<froud> yes
<froud> btw for that one you can just do
<froud> <xi:include href="../../upstream/gnome/update-manager/C/update-manager.xml" xpointer="intro" xmlns:xi="http://www.w3.org/2001/XInclude" />  
<mdke> i c
<froud> want a tip
<mdke> always
<froud> wrap the xi in a sect1
<froud> remember the xpointer does not bring in the node but its children
<mdke> ok that's exactly what I wanted to have explained :)
<mdke> thanks
<froud> :-) np
<froud> glad to be of help
<mdke> gah
<froud> as plovs once put it, "xmllint  and froud. Good tools"
<froud> enjoy
<mdke> nearly there... but something is still not working
<froud> hmm
<froud> what's that
<jsgotangco> salut
<froud> shalom
<jsgotangco> what's what?
<mdke> froud, ok here is the code AND the errors http://pastebin.com/309970
<froud> debug session with mdke
<mdke> hey jsgotangco 
<mdke> i'm learning...
<jsgotangco> oh buy the docbook print edition from o'reiley its really good
<jsgotangco> im still looking for docbook xslt reference
<froud> mdke: it cant find the xml file
<mdke> stupid thing
<mdke> i got the address wrong maybe?
<jsgotangco> they still haven't fixed my laptop
<froud> but that path is correct
<jsgotangco> what's with mgalvin's commits?
<mdke> yeah i double and triple checked it
<froud> why is your system doing ../../../
<froud> when it should be doing ../../../
<mdke> jsgotangco, he did like 30 patches :)
<froud> when it should be doing ../../
<jsgotangco> grrr im ashamed i havent done anything lately
<jsgotangco> and my laptop breaking...
<mdke> froud, can you check it on your system? i committed it now
<mdke> jsgotangco, not your fault
<froud> k
<mdke> jsgotangco, hey did you hear we got some webspace from tseng for the ubuntu docs?
<jsgotangco> yeah i got to talk to tseng this morning about it
<jsgotangco> its in his secret Xen based linode server
* mdke reads scrollback
<jsgotangco> no in #ubuntu-motu
<mdke> ah i don't log that channel
<jsgotangco> hmm
<jsgotangco> how does Ubuntu Foundation affect us
<mdke> anyhow I've set up a cron job to upload every couple of days
<jsgotangco> mdke: but uploads are in xml?
<mdke> no
<mdke> xml and html
<mdke> http://tseng2.ath.cx/~ubuntu-doc/
<jsgotangco> ah i must have missed, when i checked it this morning i only saw xml
<mdke> its always been html up there
<mdke> if there is a doc missing, lemme know
<jsgotangco> who bribed tseng anyways
<mdke> he offered :)
<mdke> i was hassling mako about it and tseng offered
<jsgotangco> during the CC meeting?
<jsgotangco> the linode server can't wait?
<mdke> no not in any meeting
<mdke> well i haven't heard anything about the linode server, have you?
<jsgotangco> well no not lately though
<jsgotangco> im just concerned we're uploading in 2 servers now instead of consolidating them
<mdke> well both are temporary solutions until we get the linode
<jsgotangco> yeah aware of that
<mdke> but considering that elmo is so busy right now, I don't expect linode to be coming any time soon
<jsgotangco> elmo doesnt administer linode
<mdke> isn't it him that is setting them up?
<mdke> jsgotangco, actually 3 servers, jeffsch put the styleguides on his own webspace
<jsgotangco> acckkk
<mdke> as long as the links in DocteamProjects are correct, I don't see the problem
<jsgotangco> alright then
<mdke> we can only do what we can and wait for canonical to help us
<mdke> mgalvin did 30 patches yesterday, each of which had to be applied by jeffsch and froud, and he could have committed them himself if he had access
<mdke> but he doesn't
<jsgotangco> "oh well"
<mdke> still, they gave a committment that svn accounts would be dealt with in 48 hours
<mdke> froud, any luck debugging? I tried removing one of the ../ but it still didn't work
<froud> no no xpointer synatx for xslt proc has changed gimme a sec
<mdke> sure thing
<mdke> i'm gonna grab a shower
<jsgotangco> froud: how are things
<froud> jsgotangco: good
<froud> you
<jsgotangco> my saturday was good
<jsgotangco> cant say the same to my laptop though
<froud> Argh gnome sucks rocks
<mdke> back
<froud> wish they woul ddarn well upgrade to db 4.3
<froud> found the problem
<mdke> yeah?
<mdke> cool
<jsgotangco> man i was watching my daughter watch Pingu on DVD
<froud> mdke: the gnome docs use 4.1.2
<jsgotangco> that show is so stoned
<froud> that dtd is old
<froud> and does does not provide the attributes for the XPointer std
<mdke> oh dear
<froud> so I changed the doctype to 4.3
<jsgotangco> oh well
<froud> and wala
<froud> no that is a real problem
<mdke> so what should I do?
<froud> the old standard is not supported
<mdke> not use xpointer for now?
<froud> I will commit what I have done
<froud> but it means a change in upstream
<froud> you want it
<mdke> a change in which upstream?
<mdke> the update-manager doc?
<froud> yeah
<mdke> okay
<jsgotangco> hey all any suggestions for the next meeting in a few days?
<mdke> yeah
<jsgotangco> i mean agenda suggestions
<mdke> jsgotangco, what to do with the gnome user guide
<jsgotangco> what to do?
<froud> hang on a sec :-)
<mdke> jsgotangco, see the gi-normous thread on that question
<mdke> how did you miss that one?
<jsgotangco> hmm i must have read it and totally forgotten it
<mdke> ;)
<mdke> you're kde biased!
<jsgotangco> bah
<jsgotangco> i still say kde is more mature
<jsgotangco> gnome has nice ideas though
<mdke> as team secretary you must be wholly impartial :p
<jsgotangco> dude
<jsgotangco> i use gnome
<mdke> ah i c so you're gnome-biased?
<jsgotangco> i dont even have kubuntu installed
<mdke> ahhh
<mdke> that's what I like to hear
<jsgotangco> well i don't really use gnome that much lately
<jsgotangco> mdke: but do you know Kubuntu has the most UDU specs being implemented at the moment
<jsgotangco> Riddell is a machine
<mdke> heh
<jsgotangco> and Kubuntu has been the testbed of KDE lately
<jsgotangco> hey guess what
<jsgotangco> i was in the arcade today
<jsgotangco> and i saw a tux racer arcade
<mdke> no way
<mdke> awesome
<jsgotangco> yeah
<jsgotangco> i don't know if its an official cabinet though
<jsgotangco> i should have taken a pic
<jsgotangco> oh its an official cabinet
<jsgotangco> http://www.roxorgames.com/tux.html
<froud> mdke: please svn and try that
<froud> svn up
<mdke> ok will do
<froud> svn up on trunk
<froud> I changed the mod
<mdke> yes
<mdke> http://pastebin.com/309991
<mdke> froud, ^
<froud> mhmmm
<jsgotangco> ok guys im going to take an early rest we've had a long day. tommorow i'll be doing some reviews on what we had discussed and add some agenda for the next meeting on DocteamMeetingAgenda wiki
<mdke> cool
<mdke> night jsgotangco 
<jsgotangco> im still pissed i dont have my svn access today
<froud> xpointer synatx seems broken
<froud> the xinclude is working it bring sin the whole document
<mdke> right
<froud> mdke: svn up
<froud> try that
<mdke> froud, the validate script doesn't give errors :)
* mdke looks at the code
<froud> ok sec
<froud> now svn up in trunk
<mdke> done
<mdke> (i only have trunk here)
<froud> did it work
<mdke>  [14:31]  < mdke> froud, the validate script doesn't give errors :)
<froud> or does it bring in all of the article
<mdke> do I have to build the doc to check?
<froud> its suppoed to bring in just the nodes defined in the xpointer
<froud> yeah
<froud> build it
<froud> something is borked with xsltproc I think
<froud> it does not follow the xpointer 
<mdke> hmm
<froud> what does it do your side
<mdke> hang on a tic
<froud> tic tic tic
<froud> boom
<mdke> froud, oh dear
<mdke> http://www.mdke.org/images/userguide.png
<froud> Hmm I just get all of the doc in the userguide
<froud> yo mdke leave it as it is for now. I will check it some more a see what the solution is
<froud> now I am rushing
<froud> not good
<mdke> probably gentoo's fault
<froud> I think not
<mdke> ah k
<froud> I think the xpointer syntax for xsltproc is borked
<mdke> well thanks for working on it anyway
<froud> np
<froud> dont remove it
<mdke> i won't change it
<froud> mdke: we may hav eto move up dtd versions
<froud> if we do I would just align it on 5.0
<froud> xml:id is not supported in 4.3
<froud> that's why the xpointers are failing
<mgalvin> hi all
<judax> mgalvin: Hi
<mgalvin> hi judax
<judax> mgalvin: you been working hard
<judax> mgalvin: you need a commit account bad
<mgalvin> yea, i'm still waiting on elmo to setup my account
<judax> ah
<Njal> lo
<judax> Njal: Hiya
<Njal> hows you?
<judax> very good, thx, and you?
<Njal> im ok
<Njal> Off on holiday for three weeks on friday morning
<judax> I am on holiday for two weeks starting this coming friday :)
<Njal> just wondering if there was a resource i could look at to improve my writing style to be less chatty before i go
<Njal> I tryed style guide
<Njal> it's not quite complete enough for me to get much from it
<froud> mdke: you there
<froud> mdke: svn up
<judax> Hmm, you could google for some resources, or probably best is to check out current docs and see how they read
<froud> cd gnome/
<froud> make ug
<Njal> It's kinda hard coz my brain like's the chatty style, will have to retrain it then
<judax> Only prob with chatty is that it doesn't translate well
<Njal> I know
<froud> mdke: ping
<Njal> hmm it's been patched recently, i'll see what's been added
<judax> been playing with the latest Kubuntu live cd, it is fun
<froud> judax: does the install image work 
<Njal> Not a big fan of KDE it's really heavy on my system, i eventually ditched suse because of it
<judax> froud: I have not tried it yet, I am fixin' to do that
<froud> k
<judax> I need to either chop up another one of my windows boxes or I may go buy an imac mini and try the ppc version
<judax> err mac mini
<Njal> I'm getting an iMac when im on holiday im not sure if i want to put linux on it
<Njal> Ibook*
<Njal> How does the PPC version's fair?
<judax> I have an iBook, but I keep osx tiger on it, don't want to mess with that one
<Njal> I don't blame you really
<judax> I have read some stuff about installing kubuntu ppc on mac mini
<jeffsch> Njal: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/StyleGuide/ReferenceMaterials
<Njal> thanks will bookmark that, i have just taken away some chatty stuff and made the .diff, i'll have a look at this page see if anything more needs changing
<jeffsch> i'm gonna start committing mgalvin's stuff, unless someone has already started doing it...
<judax> jeffsch: think froud was working on it
<froud> jeffsch: the stuff form the morning is done
<jeffsch> what about gnome/menus/C/preferred-applications.xml
<froud> jeffsch: just do a review, we may have missed something
<froud> there were many
<jeffsch> there is a new batch that started arriving about an hour ago
<froud> ah ok
<froud> did not know that, its all yours if you want ;-)
<jeffsch> okie doke. i do it now.
<mgalvin> there are 10 new ones, i will not commit anymore until those are done so we don't miss any
<mgalvin> bbl
<froud> mdke: ping
<froud> jeffsch: mdke has started using xpointer in the userguide
<froud> I have bumped the dtd to v 4.4
<froud> and added --xinclude to the make file xsltproc commands
<froud> jeffsch: can you test make ug for me see if it works your side
<jeffsch> i did a short while ago... and it works
<froud> mdke: you're on gentoo, pls give mak ug a test let us know if its working for you
<froud> jeffsch: cool now mdke just needs to workout what to do with the headings
<froud> :-)
<jeffsch> <!DOCTYPE book PUBLIC "-//OASIS//DTD DocBook XML V4.3//EN" 
<jeffsch> 	"http://www.oasis-open.org/docbook/xml/4.3/docbookx.dtd"
<jeffsch> however, my wc is still 4.3: 
<froud> Opps sorry
<froud> my wc is 4.4
<froud> thought I had committed that
<froud> would anyone mind if we bumped to 4.4
<froud> next step is 5.0 and rng
<froud> but not yet
<jeffsch> what are implications of going to 4.4?
<froud> none really
<froud> not for us
<froud> just some bug fixes and new features like attributes
<jeffsch> what about catalog files
<froud> ppl would need to setup
<froud> or we can provide a catalog.xml
<froud> hoary catalogs are messy anyways
<jeffsch> 4.4 won't break the build process, right? it'll just take longer if the dtd needs to be downloaded from network
<froud> yes
<froud> rng would be nice
<froud> no dtd needed
<froud> validate using xmllint --relaxng
<froud> and ofcourse give xmllint the rng schema
<froud> :-)
<froud> may be that's too optimistic
<froud> jeffsch: give it some thought it's not a must, just a nice to have
<jeffsch> unless there is an immediate need for 4.4 benefits, maybe wait until after breezy
<jeffsch> we still have much writing to do, especially on user guide
<froud> he he yes you're right
<froud> ok post breezy then
<jeffsch> :) yeah, at some point we need to stop organizing and start doing
<froud> lol
<froud> you startin to sound like me :-)
<jeffsch> I'm sure i have to change my accent though :)
<froud> yah!
<jeffsch> doh! my pantry is devoid of caffeinated refreshments. I must replenish. bbl
<froud> night all
#ubuntu-doc 2005-07-15
<mgalvin> hi all, i'm back
<Mez> lo all :D
<mgalvin> hi Mez
<Mez> anyone here fancy working with the New User network to help write our New User Guide (prefereably with lots of links to current documenttaion or this being incorporated into the new documentation)
<Mez> obviously not
<Mez> mgalvin, ?
<mgalvin> Mex, hey, sorry
<mgalvin> wasn't looking at this screen
<mgalvin> Mez, ping
<Mez> pong
<Mez> nor was i
<mgalvin> what is the New User Guide, is there more info about it?
<Mez> well, it's still being started up :D
<Mez> but basically
<Mez> it's going to be a spseudo-official (maybe fully official) replacement for ubuntuguide
<Mez> and it's going to basically offer all the info a New Ubuntu User could want in one easy to find place
<mgalvin> have you taken a look at the faqguide?
<mgalvin> it has sort of the same goal, to replace ubuntuguide
<Mez> yeah, I have, it's sort of the same, but more linked to New users (plus we'll mainly just be linking to other stuff anyways)
<Mez> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/NewUbuntuUsers
<Mez> is the start of it,
* mgalvin reading...
<Mez> but, we'll be using https://wiki.ubuntu.com/NewUserGuide as a Table of contents (whats in there is not finished atm)
<Mez> while your faqguide deals with more... technical stuff,
<Mez> we;'re trying to point at people who jsut like, wnat to use MSN and browse the web :D
<Mez> desktop apps :D
<mgalvin> so its really a wiki page (as opposed to a full fledged shipped doc)
<mgalvin> that will act as a central refernece for the noobs
<Mez> basically yeah (though we will be making PDF versions etc etc and are more than willing to shove it over to doc team for inclusion in main docs)
<mgalvin> cool, well i think froud or jeffsch could say if it would be included as a doc team project
<mgalvin> i don't see why not, anything to help the real noobs is always useful
<mgalvin> i am sure myself and other can contrib to it
<Mez> matt, you a part of NUN yet ?
<mgalvin> nope
<Mez> you going to be ?
<Mez> It'd be nice to have you on board :D
<Mez> https://launchpad.ubuntu.com/people/unp/
<mgalvin> sure, i'll join up, are there any special requirements that need to be meet
<Mez> significant contribution to helping new users
<Mez> if you're working on the NUG - that count's
<mgalvin> cool, i just added myself as a proposed member
<Mez> approved :D
<Mez> #ubuntu-nun 
<mgalvin> i'll take a look at adding some content to the wiki
<mgalvin> :)
<Mez> go for it
* rob^ is reading
<rob^> the problem I see with it is that it covers a lot of whats already in the faq in step-by-step form
<rob^> have you pulled the faq out of svn and had a look?
<Mez> rob^, breifly :D but ... as I said - the FAQ is a broader base, and this is based at new users... we'll be linking to external sources etc etc, which will probably include the faw :D
<Mez> faw *
<Mez> faq *
<rob^> we are already linking parts of the wiki with the faq
<rob^> and the faq will be already included with Ubuntu..
<Mez> yeah, this is just making it more new user specific
<rob^> I dont see how its more "new user specific"
<rob^> between the User guide and the FAQ pretty much everything (will) be covered
<Mez> *Shrugs*
<jeffsch> hmmm... perhaps the people working on User Guide and the NUN can collaborate
<jeffsch> no need to work separately towards similar goals
<Mez> thats what I was saying :D
<Mez> lol - but the User Guide will be geared towards everyone - we wnat a sorta user guide cut down to the stuff that is FAQd... bit weord
<rob^> I dont see why we need to different projects
<rob^> two^
<rob^> covering the same thing 
<rob^> as it is we have several books profiled in the faq already
<rob^> and also as it is the New User Guide covers several things already found in the wiki
<rob^> I think the best way to help a new user is make a better table of contents for the wiki
<rob^> keen, but misguided.
<jeffsch> hmmm... i wonder why #ubuntu-nun when there is already #ubuntu
<rob^> yes
<rob^> good point also
<rob^> what file contains the section entities for the faq guide?
<rob^> anyone?
<rob^> doh
<mgalvin> rob^ i don't think there is an entity file for that, although i'm not looking at it right now so i could be wrong
<mgalvin> rob^, grumpy groundhog is not the next release, that will be a rolling unstable branch for ongoing development
<mgalvin> ^ iirc
<rob^> ?
<mgalvin> if i recall correctly
<rob^> I take it you were in #ubuntu-devel 
<mgalvin> yea, just read it
<rob^> ok np
<mgalvin> i'm usually just lurking there
<rob^> same
<rob^> did we get my last patch?
<rob^> no?
<rob^> everyone sleeping..
<froud> African Greetings
<rob^> hey
<froud> hey rob^ 
<rob^> did you get my last patch?
<froud> not yet, just woke up :-)
<rob^> heh
<froud> shikes can vnc into my box
<rob^> I noticed the mailing list doesnt return a copy of my emails I send to it
<froud> brb, gone to check
<rob^> good stuff
<froud> applied
<rob^> thanks
<froud> any news on your commit account
<jsgotangco> froud: around?
<froud> yep
<jsgotangco> i have a question you might be able to answer
<jsgotangco> i was looking at the hoary installer
<froud> i'll try
<jsgotangco> and it had an install guide
<jsgotangco> in html
<jsgotangco> who wrote that?
<froud> what does it look like I have not seen it
<froud> is it the install guide in svn
<jsgotangco> no it doesn't look like it
<jsgotangco> ill run the cd again
<froud> is it a simple one or long one
<froud> there is a long one from debian
<jsgotangco> a very long one
<froud> upstream
<froud> from debian
<jsgotangco> but "ubuntufied"?
<jsgotangco> its in doc/install/manual/en
<jsgotangco> oh right its Debian
<froud> yes some people in devel were maintaining it
<jsgotangco> why not just adopt parts of it?
<froud> but that is one hectic document for our desktop user audience
<jsgotangco> its quite a complicated in some parts indeed
<froud> no reason why not, the install guide files for a simple install guide are in svn
<jsgotangco> hrmm
<froud> jsgotangco: you have an itch, feel free to work on it
<jsgotangco> yeah well i was actually reinstalling my laptop when i stumbled upon it
<froud> just remember that we need two install guides ubuntu and kubuntu
<froud> so use the profile methods
<jsgotangco> yeah i thought about it
<jsgotangco> im actually getting the trunk now
<froud> There is a temptation to make install guides complex
<jsgotangco> took almost 2 hours to rebuild
<froud> 2 hours
<froud> hmm mgalvin said he also had problems doing checkout from svn
<froud> said it was slow
<jsgotangco> mgalvin's output is superb
<froud> jsgotangco: it would be nice if you can give some love to it :-)
<froud> yes he is good
<froud> both him and rob doing good work
<jsgotangco> well i always had some love to share it just happened my tools won't play well heh
<froud> I have asked mdz to hurry their commit accounts along
<jsgotangco> why mdz?
<froud> well its more than a week and elmo has been moving house
<jsgotangco> ahh right
<froud> so I am looking to expidite th eprocess
<froud> mgalvin co authored the ppc version of ubuntuguide.org
<froud> and rob^ was also involved with ubuntuguide.org
<froud> I wish Chau would join in :-)
<jsgotangco> our svn has become huge
<rob^> hey again
<froud> jsgotangco: yes
<froud> rob^: hey
<rob^> I should probably mention with my new email account comes a new pgp key
<froud> no you should always keep the same one
<froud> unless you feel that the old one was compromised
<jsgotangco> yeah
<rob^> froud, I actually wasn't involved with the ubuntuguide.org, just have a lot of prior experience with Debian
<froud> rob^: ah
<froud> rob^: did you send anyone your new keys
<froud> do you have the old keys
<rob^> not yet
<rob^> yes
<froud> if you have your old keys then just add them to your key bundle
<froud> svn will still be able to use them
<rob^> yeah its still in there
<rob^> both are
<jsgotangco> you can add more emails on a key though
<rob^> never really looked to check if you could..
<froud> it's important that you let people know if you need to make changes like that, otherwise you won't be able to commit and that could be very frustrating
<rob^> yeah
<froud> and giving elmo the wrong key and then asking him to replace it just adds to his workload
<jsgotangco> ok im going back and play with my daughter
<jsgotangco> heh
<jsgotangco> its a nice sunday afternoon
<rob^> just added my new email to the original key
<rob^> pretty simple to do actually
<jsgotangco> salut
<mgalvin> hi all
<froud> evening
<mgalvin> hi froud
<jeffsch> howdy folks
<mgalvin> hi jeffsch
<jeffsch> :)
<mgalvin> i finally found out why my connection to the uk is so slow... i found a report saying that apparently there are some dns issues that make seeing sites in the uk from the us very slow or impossible
<mgalvin> at least its not just me and someone found the problem
<froud> he he
<mgalvin> so since we know have a bunch of proper gnome menus I added the ent file to the faqguide... small issue...
<froud> great yu want to patch it
<mgalvin> a few different methods are being used during profiling...
<froud> yes
<froud> you clear on them?
<mgalvin> sometime the actuall menuchoice is profiled, but sometime the surrounding para is profiled
<froud> ok
<mgalvin> i am clear, but it causes a small issue b/c
<mgalvin> now if i use the gnome-menu-C ent file the menu entries in the files are not profiles
<mgalvin> i would have to wrap all the menuchoices in paras and profile the paras
<froud> if not profiled items should be included in output
<mgalvin> if i don't then the gnome menu also shows up in the kde version of the doc, all the gnome menu file don't have and os="gnome"
<froud> A yes c what you mean
<froud> can you paste an example here
<froud> use case of the problem
<mgalvin> sure...
<mgalvin> add this to faqguide.xml
<mgalvin> <!ENTITY % gnome-menus-C SYSTEM "../../../gnome/libs/gnome-menus-C.ent">
<mgalvin> %gnome-menus-C;
<mgalvin> replace 
<mgalvin> <menuchoice os="gnome">
<mgalvin>                 <guimenu>Applications</guimenu>
<mgalvin>                 <guimenuitem>System Tools</guimenuitem>
<mgalvin>                 <guimenuitem>Terminal</guimenuitem>
<mgalvin>             </menuchoice>
<froud> k
<mgalvin> with &terminal;
<froud> kk
<mgalvin> that make both the gnome term and konsole show up in kfaq
<mgalvin> ...
<mgalvin> if we use...
<mgalvin> <para os="gnome">
<mgalvin> 	         &terminal;
<mgalvin>         </para>
<mgalvin>         <para os="kde">
<mgalvin>             <menuchoice os="kde">
<mgalvin>                 <guimenu>Kmenu</guimenu>
<mgalvin>                 <guisubmenu>System</guisubmenu>
<mgalvin>                 <guimenuitem>Terminal Program (Konsole)</guimenuitem>
<mgalvin>             </menuchoice>
<mgalvin> 	     </para>
<mgalvin> that works fine
<mgalvin> eventually also use &konsole;
<mgalvin> when we have those menus done
<froud> yes option 2 is correct way
<froud> but now you can have
<mgalvin> using option 2 also then assures that the menu choice is nevre "inline" with the preceding para text
<froud> no need for @os on menuchoice now
<mgalvin> exaclty
<froud> go for it, sounds good to me
<mgalvin> which lets us use the menu files freely
<mgalvin> :)
<froud> yes
<jeffsch> what if for some reason you want the menu choice to be "inline"?
<froud> still can
<jeffsch> i must be missing something :)
<mgalvin> i think we could use <application>&terminal</application>
<mgalvin> which is inline
<mgalvin> ?
<mgalvin> it gets bold though i think
<froud> why do that
<froud> why not just <para>.... &terminal; .....</para>
<froud> why not just <para os="gnome">.... &terminal; .....</para>
<mgalvin> um, sorry your right
<mgalvin> that would work fine
<froud> why not just <para os="kde">.... &konsole; .....</para>
<froud> btw in some cases you can do 
<froud> <para os="kde,gnome">.... </para>
<froud> but of course you cannot then have menuchoices in them
<froud> so
<jeffsch> <menuchoice os="gnome">&terminal;</menuchoice> and <menuchoice os="kde">&konsole;</menuchoice> ?
<froud> no then the external xml-instance is invalid
<mgalvin> that would put a menuchoice inside another menuchoice
<froud> yes or you would have to create an invalid xml instance
<froud> external
<jeffsch> leave the menuchoice out of &terminal; and &konsole;
<froud> makes the xml invalid
<froud> xml instance must have a root element
<froud> technically in this context it will be well-formed
<froud> but the external instance is not 
<froud> not a good practice IMHO
<froud> better to have <para os="gnome">.... &terminal; .....</para>
<froud> where
<froud> &terminal; is a valid and well-formed xml-instance
<froud> it does not have to have @os
<froud> another option
<froud> <para>.... <phrase os="gome">&terminal;</phrase> .....</para>
<froud> I think that is valid
<froud> therefore
<froud> <para>.... <phrase os="gome">&terminal;</phrase><phrase os="kde">&konsole;</phrase> .....</para>
<froud> is true
<froud> mgalvin: there are many options
<froud> jeffsch: what do you think?
<jeffsch> heh, it's almost more work than not using &terminal; :)
<jeffsch> but <para>.... <phrase os="gome">&terminal;</phrase><phrase os="kde">&konsole;</phrase> .....</para> looks ok
<froud> he he yes but in context of the big benefit is good
<jeffsch> yeah
<froud> mgalvin: does that help
<froud> we have outlined two options
<jeffsch> :) now we need an entity for <phrase os="gome">&terminal;</phrase> hehe
<froud> ooh multiple abstraction
<froud> kinky
<jeffsch> evaentually we can have &faqguide; :) a very short document
<mgalvin> froud, yes that helps, thnx guys
<froud> mgalvin: np
<mgalvin> i jusr emailed a small patch to the faq guide that uses the method we jusr discussed
<jeffsch> ok. i'll apply it shortly
<mgalvin> elmo... ELMO... hehe :)
#ubuntu-doc 2005-07-16
<rob^> a few changes to the faq guide I take it..
<mgalvin> yup, and i've got a few more comming soon
<rob^> how many new entities are you making?
<mgalvin> a bunch, not sure exactly, one for each of the default gnome menu entries, at least the System menu for now
<mgalvin> and i am using them in the faqguide and other docs too
<rob^> yeah, I just saw an example on the mailing list, much nicer
<mgalvin> i just emailed another faqguide patch to the list
<mgalvin> once someone (jeffsch, froud, mdke) commits it, feel free to work on it
<mgalvin> i am done with the faqguide for tonight
<rob^> yeah.. I'm about to go out, so np
<mgalvin> good night all
<froud> African Greetings
<Burgundavia> salut
<Burgundavia> my machine boots again!
<rob^> howdy
<jsgotangco> salut
<jsgotangco> hello
<jsgotangco> does anyone remember our toolchain listing?
<mgalvin> hi all
<mdke> hi mgalvin, all
<mgalvin> hi mdke
<mdke> how's it going?
<mgalvin> pretty good, working
<mdke> cool
<mdke> mgalvin, how are we looking on that commit account?
<mdke> hi gtaylor 
<gtaylor> hey mdke
<gtaylor> Just got rained on bigtime by the Dennis remnants
<mdke> ?
<mgalvin> mdke, still waiting... :-/
<mgalvin> i haven't heard anything
<mdke> henrik said he added it to the enormous list of things he needs elmo to do
<mgalvin> ok, well i guess i'll just keep mail bombing the list for now ;)
<mdke> mgalvin, its great work you're doing :)
<mgalvin> at least they know about it, patience is a virtue
<mdke> yeah i agree
<mgalvin> thanks
<mgalvin> i'll probably roll my changes into fewer emails, for example i'm gonna add some more menus soon, but i'll send them all in one email
<mgalvin> where it makes sense anyway
<mdke> perhaps even do em in one patch
<mdke> i don't think that is necessarily bad, if you prefer it that way
<mgalvin> i can do that too, where it makes sense to do so, jeffsch or froud had mentioned that its prefered having seperate patches in case something needs to be rolled back, its easier to track that way
<mdke> yes that is true
<rob^> hey froud 
<froud> hi
<rob^> maybe you can help me..
<froud> i'll try
<rob^> I'm getting this when trying to find and import my gpg key in Lauchpad: Key was claimed, sending email to :.At least one UID should be validated to get the key imported as yours.
<rob^> any ideas?
<froud> hmmm, no
<rob^> apparently I may need to be part of the "web trust"
<froud> I know nothing about LP
<rob^> ah ok thanks anyway ")
<mdke> rob^, who has signed your key?
<rob^> as is keyservers?
<rob^> in^
<mdke> rob^, erm...
<mdke> ok here is how it works
<mdke> launchpad imports your key from keyservers
<mdke> you need to upload it to a keyserver for others to get it from the web
<mdke> gpg --send-keys your_key_id
<mdke> rob^, key signing is something different
<rob^> yes, I have already uploaded it to keyserver.ubuntu.com
<mdke> good
<mdke> rob^, when someone meets you and you confirm your identity and your key, they can sign it, showing that they trust it
<rob^> ah ok, so I need it signed by someone in ubuntu's web of trust?
<rob^> yeah
<mdke> rob^, i don't know if you need to be in the web of trust to upload the key to launchpad
<mdke> i don't think so, because I'm not, and I uploaded mine
<rob^> the guys in #launchpad suggested I file a bug report
<mdke> okay
<mdke> they would know :)
<rob^> yeah. figures I guess :)
<mgalvin> rob^, ping
<mdke> froud, ello?
<mgalvin> rob^, did you file that launchpad bug, i could not find it, i also have had this same problem and would like to see it fixed, i can file it if you can't right now
<judax> greets
<mdke> hey judax 
<mgalvin> hi judax
<judax> hey guys
<froud> mdke: hey
<mdke> y0
<froud> anyone know what installation methods will be supported for 5.10
<mdke> froud, just calling to find out what the xpointer situation is
<froud> fixed dude
<mdke> cool
<mdke> thanks
<froud> try make ug
<froud> anyone know what installation methods will be supported for 5.10?
<mgalvin> i think all the current plus the quick install
* mgalvin umm.... checking actuall name
<froud> what about TFTP
<froud> NFS
<froud> SMB
<mgalvin> i think those are all covered as a general Network Installtion type
<froud> But are they supported?
<mgalvin> we can double check the devs
<froud> sure
<mgalvin> i just asked on -devel
<mgalvin> we'll see what they say
<mgalvin> i am pretty sure kickstart will also be supported
<mgalvin> froud
<mgalvin> http://archive.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/dists/hoary/main/installer-i386/current/doc/manual/en/ch02s02.html
<mgalvin> the officially supported installation methods for breezy are the same as hoary
<froud> k
<mdke> what is the difference between those docs and ours?
<froud> that manual is debian install guide ubuntusized
<froud> one of the devs does it
<mdke> by Kamion i guess?
<froud> dunno
<mdke> so what is the difference between that and our docs?
<mdke> generally speaking
<froud> that doc is totally comprehensive
<froud> something a new user will be confused with
<mdke> ok i see
<mdke> but good reference i guess
<froud> we mostly aim a bridging
<froud> yes, many such resources
<Seveas> anyone around?
<froud> mmmHmmm
<Seveas> wasn't manning the evil publisher that wouldn't play nice..?
<froud> yes, why
<Seveas> http://paste.ubuntulinux.nl/497
<Seveas> check that one 
<Seveas> your opinions on what to do..?
<froud> go for it
<froud> they want you to be a reviewer
<Seveas> so no objections from the docteam are expected?
<froud> no
<Seveas> ok
<froud> you can do what you like
<Seveas> don't want to step on the feets of the docteam :0
<Seveas> :)
<froud> no a few of us had a beef with the way they were pitching people
<froud> but that was resolved
<Seveas> ok
<Seveas> great
<mgalvin> hmm, i missed that, it just says [Removed] 
<mdke> me too
<froud> Seveas has been asked to be a reviewer on a book
<froud> cool
<Seveas> yeah, I removed it again
<Seveas> no point in having someones e-mail on a public site
* froud nods
<mgalvin> understood
<mgalvin> cool
<Seveas> but that was the quickest way of showing it without flooding :)
<Seveas> hmm
<Seveas> an ubuntu booc written in Word
<Seveas> odd :)
<mdke> worse than odd...
<mgalvin> which is the offending doc?
<Seveas> the TOC manning sent me to review
<Seveas> but I guess it's just a quick mockup of the plans
<Seveas> and that's about what word is good for :)
<froud> Seveas: you will probably find that the doc was written in OOo Writer and saved to MS Word so that the publisher, who does not use Linux, can open it.
<froud> I often have to do the same thing with my clients
<Seveas> ahh
<Seveas> that explains
<mdke> pah
<mdke> pdf anyday
<froud> Doesn't help if you want people to edit and make comments
<froud> mdke: xpointers working for you?
<froud> chaps kubuntu-docs-5.10-0.2_all.deb was uploaded today ... yay!!
<mgalvin> woohoo
<mdke> froud, yeah its working afaics, i was just opening it now to see if I could tidy things up
<froud> cool
<mgalvin> is anyone doing the ubuntu-docs packaging?
<froud> you're welcome
<mdke> not yet
<mdke> mgalvin, you would be a good candidate :)
<mgalvin> i'll do it
<froud> btw I heard that elmo is at DebConf
<froud> in fi
<mdke> yes he is
<mgalvin> ah
<mgalvin> so he ran away from real work ;)
<mdke> but that doesn't mean he doesn't get any work done :) he probably has more time than he did in the UK
<froud> hehe
<mgalvin> i know, just kidding
<mgalvin> so i'll take a peak at the package stuff for ubuntu-doc, maybe we can get that stuff in soon too
<mdke> no biggie
<mdke> but cool if you wanna do it :)
<mgalvin> gotta run
<mgalvin> l8r all
<froud> later dudes
<mdke> damn
#ubuntu-doc 2005-07-17
<mgalvin> hey guys
<Burgundavia> salut
<Burgundavia> nice patches
<mgalvin> thnx
<rob^> mgalvin, I haven't filed that bug yet (I was tired, it was 2:30am)
<rob^> I'm going to now
<mgalvin> rob^, ok, i think cprov said it would be fixed in their next release
<rob^> any ideas when that is?
<mgalvin> nope, he just said that they were working on it
<rob^> ok
<rob^> how the heck do you get your password back for the wiki, it says to use Launchpad but that doesnt work
<mgalvin> i think you can use the lost password feature and it should give it back to you
<mgalvin> the wiki and lanuchpad use the same l/p
<mgalvin> same db i think
<rob^> yeah tried that, no good
<mgalvin> hmm
<mgalvin> you tried it from the wiki or from launchpad
<rob^> the wiki tells yo to use launchpad, I can log into launchpad fine with the new password, just not the wiki
<mgalvin> hmm, then i don't know, i did it a while ago and it had worked then... possibly another problem(possible regression) to discuss on #launchpad i guess
<rob^> hmm
<jeffsch> jsgotangco!
<jsgotangco> hey jeffsch how are you?
<jeffsch> ok, i guess. long time no talk eh?
<jsgotangco> jeffsch: i finally got to start on the styleguide on the international audience section
<jeffsch> awesome!
<jeffsch> what's up with the next meeting? is it still on?
<jsgotangco> of course
<jsgotangco> i'll update the agenda later
<jsgotangco> sorry i was quite busy with a client lately
<jsgotangco> (we're in the middle of an oracle implementation)
<jeffsch> i won't be able to make it anyway. :(
<jsgotangco> time?
<jsgotangco> you think the 14:00UTC is a good time to make it permanent for regular meetings?
<jeffsch> i can't make it the whole day... jury duty and then a class
<jsgotangco> whoa jury duty
<jsgotangco> :(
<jeffsch> it's not so bad.
<jsgotangco> whats class are you taking?
<jsgotangco> jasoncohen: hello
<jasoncohen> hi
<jasoncohen> Burgundavia told me to come here. am i too late?
<jasoncohen> i assumed there was some discussion or a meeting going on
<jsgotangco> hmmm there is a meeting but its not today
<jasoncohen> when is it?
<jsgotangco> maybe i can help?
<jasoncohen> Burgundavia asked me to come here. I'm not sure why., and he appears to be idle now. Perhaps it's due to the wiki pages I've put up recently
<jsgotangco> on the 14th at 22:00UTC #ubuntu-meeting
<jasoncohen> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/NewUserGuideMultimedia and https://wiki.ubuntu.com/NewUserGuideAddingRepositories
<jsgotangco> im putting up a simple agenda later
<jsgotangco> oohhh
<jasoncohen> is there a problem?
<jsgotangco> none :) they are nice wiki pages
<jasoncohen> great
<jsgotangco> are you interested in joining the docteam?
<jasoncohen> i'm always open to suggestions. also, any idea how i could get a decent picture of totem. it just shows blue with all the screenshot programs i've used. i got it to work with xine.
<jsgotangco> have you tried imagemagick?
<jasoncohen> what kind of commitment does it entail? i like writing up wiki pages to help new users and would be willing to help- just don't want to commit to something that might be too time consuming
<jasoncohen> i have a few things going now- working on a project with mythtv and doing a legal research/investigative internship
<jsgotangco> well wiki gardening is one of things the team is working on
<jsgotangco> cleaning up wiki stuff, etc.
<jsgotangco> but not necessarily changing the content
<jasoncohen> no, i hadn't tried imagemagick
<jasoncohen> i actually was the one who added screenshots and some more description to the repositories howto
<jasoncohen> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/AddingRepositoriesHowto
<jsgotangco> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/TakingScreenshots
<jasoncohen> the desktop pic was from warty and had the wrong instructions for finding synaptic in the menu
<jsgotangco> robitaille: hello
<jasoncohen> jsgotangco, what else do you guys do?
<jsgotangco> jasoncohen: we write in DocBook XML
<robitaille> jsgotangco: hi.
<jsgotangco> we have our own repository where we maintain our source of ubuntu documents
<jasoncohen> cool
<robitaille> can someone explain to me what is this page about: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LocalSpellingWords
<jsgotangco> jasoncohen: our WIP stuff can be found here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocteamProjects
<jsgotangco> robitaille: weird page
<robitaille> oh...I think I have a guess: if you do a spell check, these must be the words that you add to the local directory.
<jsgotangco> hmmm but Robos is a guy
<jsgotangco> oh right
<jeffsch> robitaille: i think it's for the wiki spellchecking feature
<jeffsch> it's where the word list is kept, iirc
<jsgotangco>  Well What will Windows wish with work working world would writing x86 years
<jsgotangco> haha
<jsgotangco>  downloaded Hedgehog interested Manager official presented processor Production provided recent
<jeffsch> hmmm... sounds like the kind of thing i would write :)
<robitaille> jeffsch:  yes it is.  I did a spell check on my wiki page, and added "university" to it just now.   I guess there is no default dictionary, so users have to build one from scratch. 
<jeffsch> great. I can'
<jeffsch> oops
<jasoncohen> jsgotangco, i'm on the phone. i'll be back soon
<jeffsch> great, i can't wait until we get words like asdfjkl in there :)
<jsgotangco> hehe
<robitaille> would it be worth the effort to jumpstart that page and add a long series of words to it?
<jeffsch> i wonder if someone could just paste in the wordlist that aspell uses
<jsgotangco> sounds fun but you might end up adminstering the dictionary itself
<robitaille> the thing I would afraid is how slow the spell check would become if that page contains thousand of entries
<jsgotangco> and all those words aren't even accurate to begin with
<jeffsch> ok, i gotta run. c ya
<jsgotangco> ill brb as well
<froud> African Greetings
<froud> later dudes, many meetings today :-)
<Burgundavia> cya
<jsgotangco> hello
<Burgundavia> jsgotangco, I pointed jasoncohen at here
<Burgundavia> because I was concerned about duplication of effort
<Burgundavia> and mildly concerned about a few docs he had written
<jsgotangco> i didnt read the wiki pages in-depth btw
<Burgundavia> his new user adding repos advocated using the commandline
<Burgundavia> which we should frown upon
<Burgundavia> even if it harder for us
<robitaille> but but but ...I love the cli :)
<Burgundavia> right, my step-mother doesn't
<Burgundavia> now sod off
* jsgotangco checks again
<Burgundavia> robitaille, you going to be at vlug tomorrow>
<Burgundavia> ?
<robitaille> Burgundavia:  probably not.  it seems my wife has plan something else for tomorrow night.  But it's not set in stone yet.  So I may be there...but probably unlikely
<Burgundavia> damn
<robitaille> it's my fault:  I forgot to tell her that I had something else that night.  
<jsgotangco> AddingRepositoriesHowto seems reasonable to me. It tackled synaptic first before going to cli
<jsgotangco> the NewUserGuideAddingRepositories page though is very cli oriented
<robitaille> jsgotangco: to complete an earlier discussion: http://moinmoin.wikiwikiweb.de/LocalSpellingWords
<robitaille> another proof that this type of spell check in a wiki doesn't really work that well... especially in a mostly German+English wiki
<jsgotangco> oh my god those are awesome haha
<jsgotangco> about any code create elementary
<jsgotangco> brb
<jsgotangco> mdke: ping?
<mdke> hi
<mdke> jsgotangco, sup dude
<mdke> gtg
<mdke> be back later
<Burgundavia> been talking in #gnome-hackers about docs
<Burgundavia> good discussion
<mdke> jsgotangco, email if its urgent
<Burgundavia> morning Kinnison 
<Kinnison> hi burgey
<Burgundavia> how is my favourite gay englishman?
<Burgundavia> I haven't talked to you recently
* Kinnison is fine thanks
<Kinnison> busy as heck, but fine
* Burgundavia is not-busy and unemployed
<Burgundavia> :-(
<Kinnison> :-(
<Kinnison> But you seem to have a new girlfriend
<Burgundavia> same one actually
<Kinnison> Aaah
<Burgundavia> we have had some stormy times, but are back together again
* Kinnison nods
<Burgundavia> read my XP rants, did you?
<Kinnison> yeah
<Burgundavia> in good news, there will now be an Ubuntu machine at my parents house
<Burgundavia> my step-mother is going to switch this wed.
<Kinnison> Excellent
* Kinnison 's father is loving his Ubuntu box
<Burgundavia> with my brother jumped and my grandparents moving, that leaves only my father left
<Burgundavia> I have to sleep, talk to you again
<sivang> Kinnison: :-)
<Kinnison> hi sivang 
<mdke> back
<Njal> lo
<mdke> hi Njal 
<Njal> hows you?
<mdke> good thanks, you?
<Njal> not so good
<mdke> Njal, how come?
<Njal> my girlfriend and i have split up
<mdke> ah sorry to hear that
<Njal> And that on top of the heat and my bad digestive system has resulted in a inability to actually eat without being sick
<mdke> oh dear
<mdke> seen a doctor?
<Njal> yeah there's nothing wrong with me apparently
<Njal> anyway i came here to ask if it would be possible to not send any email's to my address for about 3 weeks?
<Njal> Im going to be on holiday and wont have access to a PC
<mdke> you can disable mail delivery from ubuntu lists using your account preferences
<mdke> http://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-doc
<Njal> ah good coz i hate having to spend hours deleting email's it better to just disable email's and spend the time svn uping
<mdke> agreed
<Njal> ah done
<Njal> Um since im working on the gnome terminal bit of the userguide should i include trick's like how to use escape sequences etc?
<Njal> ???
<jjesse> quick question there is the k menu in kubuntu but in gnome is it called the footprint? or what is it called?
<mdke> jjesse, there are three menus, one is applications, one is places, one is system
<Njal> the applicattions menu, th place's menu or the system menu i suppose
<jjesse> ok thanks mdke and njal
<jjesse> working on the k menu portion in the kde userguide and wanted to compare things
<mdke> come back!
<mdke> i can't seem to apply rob's patches
<jjesse> doh
<mdke> i suck
<jjesse> why now mdke?
<mdke> because I never learnt how patches work properly
<jjesse> grin me either to be honest
<jjesse> we should have a patch class :)
<jeffsch> mdke: ping
<mdke> yo jeffsch 
<jeffsch> here's how I did the patch:
<jeffsch> jeff@cloud:~/ubuntu-doc/generic/faqguide/C $ ls -l
<jeffsch> total 344
<jeffsch> -rw-r--r--  1 jeff jeff   1290 2005-06-30 09:21 faqguide-C.omf
<jeffsch> -rw-r--r--  1 jeff jeff 321817 2005-07-10 17:22 faqguide.xml
<jeffsch> -rw-r--r--  1 jeff jeff   9128 2005-07-10 17:21 faqguide.xml.diff
<jeffsch> -rw-r--r--  1 jeff jeff   3825 2005-07-12 07:57 faqguide.xml.diff7
<jeffsch> drwxr-xr-x  3 jeff jeff   4096 2005-05-31 13:30 sample
<jeffsch> jeff@cloud:~/ubuntu-doc/generic/faqguide/C $ patch <faqguide.xml.diff7
<jeffsch> et voila!
<jeffsch> the magic part being "patch <faqguide.xml.diff7"
<mdke> hmm
<mdke> i wonder why it didn't work for me
<mdke> that's what I did :)
<jeffsch> what was the error?
<mdke> jeffsch, anyhow thanks for doing it!
<mdke> jeffsch, i can't remember i'm afraid
<jjesse> grin thanks for the class jeffsch
* netjoined: irc.freenode.net -> kornbluth.freenode.net
<mdke> getting some momentum up on the userguide
<mdke> hey froud
<mdke> that business about having to follow the section structure even in xpointers is incredibly irritating :D
<froud> :-)
<mdke> froud, is there no workaround?
<froud> bring in nodes individually :-)
<mdke> that is what I did, but I want to bring in a sect2 as a sect1
<froud> or create an xpath that will bring it in
<rwabel> hi
<froud> hi
<rwabel> I've made some changes on the documentation section in the wiki.
<froud> k
<rwabel> I've talked with Matt
<mdke> hi there rwabel 
<rwabel> Matt?
<mdke> yus
<froud> cool I dont do wiki, ah ther ehe is
<rwabel> ahh
<mdke> :)
<rwabel> I've made changes now
<mdke> looking
<rwabel> no documents are lost :-) I've rearranget some of them. let me know what u think
<mdke> what changes have you made?
<rwabel> in the documentation section
<mdke> i can't see any differences to UserDocumentation
<rwabel> structur
<mdke> oh on the FrontPage?
<rwabel> right
<rwabel> is that not ok?
<mdke> rwabel, its better not to edit the Frontpage, and make the amendments on the UserDocumentation page
<rwabel> ah ok
<rwabel> in my opinion it's already that part who needs get changed
<mdke> which part?
<rwabel> mh where can I ask about that
<mdke> about what?
<rwabel> well the problem is that the the documentation section, in my opinion, is already kinda badly
<rwabel> that's why I've changed. And I've put the links from UserDocumentation in different sections
<mdke> rwabel, i agree, but you should work on the documentation section, rather than the FrontPage
<mdke> rwabel, the FrontPage pointed clearly to the UserDocumentation page, to allow people to follow that link if they are looking for documentation
<rwabel> ok, I thought it would be ok. in the forum I've posted my idea about the FrontPage part
<rwabel> Ok, I'll undo it...but where can I ask about to make FrontPage changes
<mdke> rwabel, you can ask us
<rwabel> :-)
<mdke> we have had months of discussing the wiki structure on our list
<rwabel> and that was the final structure?
<mdke> Yes
<rwabel> oh, ok what a pity :-(
<rwabel> because I think also other users don't like it's structure
<rwabel> I can remember when I came first there...honestly I've left after some seconds
<mdke> rwabel, I agree that the structure of the wiki is bad, but this needs to be addressed not only on the Frontpage: this frontpage points to the documentation section, _that_ is what needs to be edited IMO
<rwabel> well I've only looked at the documentation section.
<mdke> you have removed the link to the UserDocumentation page, which should be the basic starting point for documentation
<rwabel> no it should all be back again
<mdke> i like the links you've made, but i think that they should be on the UserDocumentation page
<mdke> what do you think?
<rwabel> you mean my part * ["Newbie"]  - New to Ubuntu & Linux
<rwabel>  * ["Kubuntu"]  - Here you can find all documentation concerning Kubuntu, Ubuntu with the KDE desktop!
<rwabel>  * ["Installation"]  - Installing, updating & maintaining Ubuntu
<rwabel>  * HardwareDrivers - Howto's to get hardware and drivers to work
<rwabel>  * ["Software"]  - Howto's to get software to work
<rwabel>  * [http://www.ubuntuguide.org/ Unoffical Ubtunuguide (might have some errors!)] 
<mdke> yes
<rwabel> well why not...but all information would be in my part already
<mdke> what users have a problem with is not the structure of the FrontPage, it is with the structure of the wiki in general
<rwabel> I mean:
<rwabel> #
<rwabel> Amongst a lot of other pages in the documentation section, you can find:
<rwabel>     *
<rwabel>       HowToGetHelp - this page lists all the various resources available to you, to find help with your Ubuntu system! Make sure you check this page if you have a problem!
<rwabel>     *
<rwabel>       GettingUbuntu - How to get a copy of Ubuntu
<rwabel>     *
<rwabel>       Accessibility - docs related to accessibility
<rwabel>     *
<rwabel>       HardwareSupport and SupportedArchitectures - Check if your hardware works with Ubuntu
<rwabel>     *
<rwabel>       FrequentlyAskedQuestions and [WWW]  FAQ database
<rwabel>     *
<rwabel>       [WWW]  Glossary
<mdke> rwabel, i can see the page, you don't have to paste it
<rwabel> this stuff I've put in, what is in my opinion where it fits
<mdke> basically users go to the wiki, and they see the link to UserDocumentation, they click on it, they find a mess. This is the real problem we have right now
<rwabel> I just think, that when someone new comes to the wiki. it would be great for him to see ah something for newusers, ah information about installation
<mdke> if you insert your material into the UserDocumentation page, i think that will be a great improvement
<mdke> i agree with you
<mdke> we just disagree on where to put it
<rwabel> right :-)
<rwabel> I just could as you told me my parts in the UserDocumentation page. And it would already be a great improvement
<mdke> I think so
<mdke> then we can work on making the Frontpage more clearly point to UserDocumentation
<rwabel> ok
<mdke> so that the UserDocumentation page provides a central point for all documentation related matters
<rwabel> ok, give me some minutes and I'll present it...then we can look at the result again :-)
<mdke> sure
<mdke> i've added a sentence to make it clear that UserDocumentation is the central point for Documentation
<rwabel> how about the result now?
<rwabel> oh and we could also add the forum wiki delta on the UserDocumentation
<mdke> hmm
<mdke> you've removed all the other links!
<rwabel> right
<rwabel> they are all in undersections
<mdke> all?
<rwabel> yes
<mdke> that's not quite true
<rwabel> no?
<rwabel> which one is missing?
<mdke> the external documents are missing for example
<mdke> rwabel, don't you think it would be better for you to add links and preserve the existing ones?
<mdke> fast change like this can be disconcerting for other people
<rwabel> external docuements should be there
<rwabel> they are under newbie
<rwabel> I agree, that it's a big change for people
<mdke> === Debian-specific ===
<mdke>  * [http://www.debian.org/doc/ Debian documentation index] 
<mdke>  * [http://www.debian.org/doc/user-manuals Debian Documentation Project Users' Manuals] 
<mdke>  * [http://www.togaware.com/linux/survivor/ GNU/Linux Desktop Survival Guide] 
<mdke> ?
<mdke> ah i see them
<rwabel> for me the UserDocumentation was a mess. That's why I thought to have some categories would be great.
<mdke> i like the structure you've given
<rwabel> Especially as the content grows and grow it would be overloaded
<rwabel> thanks
<mdke> but couldn't the categories be on the UserDocumentation page as subheadings?
<mdke> that way people can search one page, instead of having to check all the subpages
<mdke> what do you think?
<rwabel> you mean instead of the 5 links I've made to have them all on the UserDocumentation site?
<mdke> yes, with headings like == Hardware/Drivers ==
<mdke> what do you think?
<rwabel> wouldn't it get overloaded?
<mdke> i don't think so
<mdke> it has a number of advantages
<rwabel> I mean imagine having 20 howto's in software and 20 in hardware and then also the others getting bigger
<mdke> 1. people can search for what they are looking for on one single page, rather than having to search multiple subpages
<rwabel> that's true
<mdke> 2. it will be easier to convince people to add links for new documents in one page, rather than having to explain a complicated structure to everyone
<mdke> i think it would be really cool
<rwabel> you are right, it's kinda the smarter way
<rwabel> okay let me do that
<mdke> :))
<mdke> thanks for your work and energy
<rwabel> your welcome
<rwabel> done
<mdke> that looks great
<rwabel> maybe we could write some text under each heading. would make it better. let me try
<mdke> I will do some editing on it too later, but I won't change the structure, which I like
<mdke> i think i would change the heading levels down one, e.g. change = to == and == to ===
<mdke> that way each main section will be divided by a line, but the subsections won't be
<rwabel> cool. I'll finish my part in about 10 or 15 minutes lately. Then it's time to watch some divx :-) I'll check your changes later
<rwabel> thanks for help
<mdke> no problem
<mdke> rwabel, are you subscribed to the docteam mailing list?
<mdke> i will send an email out later and other people on the "wiki team" can discuss and help out
<rwabel> yes I've done that this afternoon
<mdke> great
<rwabel> finished! :-)
<rwabel> cu
<mdke> rwabel, great thanks, stay in touch!
<mdke> we're always here
<mdke> rwabel, i've made a change to the headings as I said above, let me know if you don't like it
<rwabel> oko
<rwabel> i'll just look at it
<rwabel> first didn't see the difference. but it looks good
<mdke> ok cool
<rwabel> I think that was a good update. Next we need to import things from the forum wiki delta in the sections. is that ok?
<mdke> rwabel, the things from the forum section should be imported first into the main section of the wiki as new pages, we can add links to such pages in UserDocumentation
<rwabel> which new page? on the FrontPage?
<mdke> erm
<rwabel> for me it doesn't matter where to put software and hardware howto's, as long as there is a place :-)
<mdke> if there is a useful howto that comes into the forum/wiki delta, the aim is to make a new page for it and make links to it in the Documentation page
<mdke> do you follow me?
<rwabel> no really
<rwabel> if I've a howto
<rwabel> I'll put it in the forum/wiki delta
<rwabel> that's ok
<rwabel> and then?
<mdke> then the howto is put into a page on the main wiki
<mdke> and we make links to it in the documentation section
<rwabel> who put the howto in the page on the main wiki? and when?
<rwabel> where is that page in the main wiki?
<mdke> rwabel, let me explain
<mdke> let's use an example
<mdke> rwabel, for example, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/forum/hardware/ndiswrapper
<mdke> that page contains useful information from the forum
<mdke> the main wiki contains a page about ndiswrapper
<mdke> (https://wiki.ubuntu.com/HowToSetUpNdiswrapper)
<mdke> what we can do is to take the information from the first page and include it into the second page
<mdke> rwabel, do you follow me?
<rwabel> yes
<rwabel> and how do I know that there is already such apage
<rwabel> the problem is that there is no list ?
<mdke> you use the search facility
<mdke> for example, I typed "ndiswrapper" into the search box
<mdke> another example would be https://wiki.ubuntu.com/forum/hardware/lucent and https://wiki.ubuntu.com/WinModemLucent
<mdke> in that example, I typed "lucent" into the search box
<rwabel> ok
<rwabel> can I ask you a mean question
<mdke> go ahead
<rwabel> whoever has made the WinModemLucent howto for example
<rwabel> why didn't he put his link somewhere
<rwabel> I mean there must be now tones of "lost" pages
<mdke> rwabel, yes, this is the problem we face on the wiki: the main job we have to do is to find documents and make links. The search facility helps
<rwabel> and we can put the links in our UserDocumentation
<mdke> yes :)
<mdke> and also it is important to give the pages the Category of "Documentation", that way they appear on the page https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CategoryDocumentation
<rwabel> when I'm doing a howto, about sth new, should I then do it in the forum wiki or directly under wiki.ubuntu.com/xxx
<mdke> directly
<rwabel> ah ok
<rwabel> and if one of us gets bored, he can search for pages which aren't in the CategoryDocumentation
<mdke> rwabel, exactly :)
<rwabel> and who is allowed for example to move pages..an example:
<rwabel> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/forum/software/GnomeLaunchBox
<rwabel> should it get first approved?
<rwabel> then I've or someone has to move it to
<rwabel> wiki.ubuntu.com/GnomeLaunchBox
<rwabel> and of course put the CategoryDocumentation
<mdke> no if you think it is suitable, and there is no page which deals with that topic, you can move it. But before moving any page, it is important to check that no links will break
<mdke> in the case of forum/software/GnomeLaunchBox, there is only one link that needs to be fixed, on the forum/software page
<rwabel> how to check? I mean I do know my pages but what about pages from others
<mdke> rwabel, you can easily check which pages have links, by clicking on the title of the page. try it with the UserDocumentation page
<mdke> it should take you to: Full Text Search: "linkto:"UserDocumentation""
<rwabel> right
<rwabel> and what shall I then do? I mean I can't move then the page?
<rwabel> or just changed on the other page the link
<mdke> if the page has links, you rename/move it and then fix the links :)
<mdke> yes
<rwabel> cool
<rwabel> so we shoulnd't put CategoryDocumentation tag before moving from forum wiki delta
<rwabel> it makes life easier later :-)
<mdke> i agree
<rwabel> so, I've learned a lot and we've accomplished quit a bit
<mdke> yeah :D
<rwabel> In the next days I'll put links from howto's from the CategoryDocumentation in the UserDocumentation
<rwabel> and also some of my howto's
<mdke> cool
<rwabel> oh and subcategories should also be done in software and hardware on the UserDocumentation
<rwabel> I hope I'll find some time...next days are finally warm !
<mdke> ;)
<mdke> where abouts do you come from?
<rwabel> Switzerland
<mdke> where in particular?
<rwabel> Bern
<mdke> ah cool
<rwabel> mhh I guess I should update my Personalpage :-)
<mdke> ;)
<rwabel> and u? where from uk?
<mdke> yes
<mdke> ah sorry
<mdke> london
<mdke> one thing I think we should consider changing on UserDocumentation is the category "Newbie". The problem is that that categorisation uses a different sort of classification from the others (installation, software, hardware).
<rwabel> mhh explain :-)
<rwabel> what kind of different categorisation
<mdke> well if you make a categorisation between new users and old users, it is a different scheme of classification than between types of documentation (hardware, software etc). This leads to overlap between the sections. But let me think about it because i agree that it is important to have a section which explains what Ubuntu is and how it works
<mdke> i'll try a quick edit now to explain what I mean
<rwabel> btw, I don't know if you understand a bit french. But I like the french version of the newbi wiki: http://wiki.ubuntu-fr.org/nouveaux_venus
<mdke> yeah that's nice
<rwabel> we should also have some information about synaptic, the system etc
<rwabel> it's astonishing how good the wiki are in french and german. I've to admit that normally the english wiki is the best one with the most information...but here :-)
<mdke> where's the german one?
<mdke> ok I've rearranged some sections and I've tried to make the structure a bit cleaner. Let me know what you think: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UserDocumentation?action=show
<rwabel> http://www.ubuntu-de.org/portal.php
<rwabel> I love their icons
<mdke> ah they've moved to that already
<rwabel> they have many good newbie howto...stuff I don't care normally...but it would be good to have them for the newbies
<rwabel> moved to what?
<mdke> their new website
<mdke> its really nice
<rwabel> they have a different wiki system I guess
<mdke> their website uses phpBB
<mdke> i don't know about the wiki software
<mdke> anyway its good stuff
<rwabel> the whole website is more userfriendly...I hope people achieve to change the wiki UI a bit
<mdke> no the UI will not change I'm afraid
<mdke> but we can change the content and make it easier to find material
<mdke> don't forget that the wiki is mainly a place for people to brainstorm. It is not static or official documentation
<rwabel> that's true...but mainly the best and only good documentation
<rwabel> btw once I need to learn how to use pictures and icons in a webpage
<mdke> in a wiki page or a webpage?
<rwabel> wiki
<rwabel> on a webpage it's easy
<mdke> ok
<mdke> the instructions are here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/HelpOnActions/AttachFile
<mdke> you can find our Icons on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IconsPage
<rwabel> and how can I upload a file. it's said only by administrators
<mdke> no anyone can upload
<mdke> you click on More Actions/Attachments
<mdke> it is all explained in that page
<mdke> rwabel, so what do you think of my changes to UserDocumentation?
<mdke> rwabel, btw all icons should be uploaded to IconsPage. Screenshots can be uploaded to the page where they are needed
<rwabel> it's much better
<mdke> ah great
<mdke> i still need to work on the "Other Documentation" bit
<rwabel> yeah, these ones are tough
<rwabel> btw if you like you can check out my blog from time to time http://ralph-wabel.net
<rwabel> now it's time for watching some series...by head got a lot of information today :-)
<mdke> i will bookmark your blog
<rwabel> :-)
<mdke> thanks a lot for your help and efforts
<rwabel> your welcome
<rwabel> cu
<mdke> bye
<mdke> ah rwabel if you get this message: when you edit wiki pages, please remember to insert a comment about your changes
<mdke> it makes it easier to see what is going on in RecentChanges
#ubuntu-doc 2006-07-10
<linuxmonkey> wassup guys
<jsgotangco> hey
<linuxmonkey> wassup
* linuxmonkey is editing some pages on the wiki :)
<linuxmonkey> well on h.u.c. wiki...lol
<jsgotangco> nice
<linuxmonkey> any know how to put a webaddress but not make it show up as a link?
<linuxmonkey> woot woot edited the https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Repositories/Kubuntu to reflect the new Canonical Commercial Repositories :)
<nixternal> linuxmonkey: is it possible for you to do the same thing for the /Ubuntu subpage?
<linuxmonkey> i dont have ubuntu installed at the moment to be able to take the screenshots
* linuxmonkey needs more systems
<linuxmonkey> im willing to do it if ya can get me screenshots nixternal
<nixternal> vmware server
<linuxmonkey> oh thats right
<nixternal> thats how i do it
<linuxmonkey> i got to install that, I actually have a vmware licence :)
<nixternal> i have Ubuntu, Xubuntu, and Edubuntu all in Dapper, as well as all of them in Edgy..although the Edgy ones are all pretty much broken right now
* linuxmonkey got it while in school
<nixternal> vmware server == free
<linuxmonkey> since when?
<nixternal> server has always been free...it is the other things that aren't
<linuxmonkey> whats the diff
<nixternal> imbrandon explained it to me one night
<nixternal> i can't remember exactly
<linuxmonkey> were is he anyways
<linuxmonkey> lol
<nixternal> taking a break i guess
<nixternal> i think it is an irc break so he can work on code..i hope it is at least
<linuxmonkey> lol probably
<linuxmonkey> he's been busy with konversation
<nixternal> which is horrible
<jsgotangco> the free vmware server is a rolling beta if i remember right
<jsgotangco> its a free, unlimited use binary though
<robotgeek> too bad parallels for mac is not free
<robotgeek> i wonder if there is a product like vmware for macs
<smitten> mdke: around?
<jsgotangco> sleeping at his time
<robotgeek> you can ask jsgotangco too :)
<theCore> robotgeek: I think there's a vmware version for the macs, but I'm really not sure
<robotgeek> theCore: nevermind, i am installing kubuntu now. no edgy testing for powerpc :(
<theCore> robotgeek: edgy testing? I don't think there's anything new for the moment
<robotgeek> theCore: yeah, but in time...
<nixternal> jsgotangco: can you link me to the anthrolopology information for Ubuntu?
<nixternal> i got it jsgotangco, forgot his name was Andreas
<jsgotangco> =)
<robotgeek> Andreas Lyod
* jsgotangco was reading Ralph sorry
<robotgeek> or Lyold, maybe?
<nixternal> how about Lloyd
<nixternal> ;)
* jsgotangco grins
<nixternal> haha
<nixternal> who is the ubuntu-list mailman?  my daughter doesn't look like me
<robotgeek> lol. i knew i was there
<nixternal> haha
<nixternal> im going to hang myself, as i keep emailing the person responsible, but he doesn't email me back
* bhuvan just received the dapper CDs with stickers!
<nixternal> grrr
<nixternal> im going to beat up the mailman tomorrow if mine don't come now ;)
<jsgotangco> what are you doing?
<bhuvan> one question in ubuntu installation: how do we install dapper using cursor/text mode (instead of default gui)
<OHPhoneGuy> bhuvan: Use the Alternative Install CD-Rom
<bhuvan> OHPhoneGuy: how do i locate that Cd. All Cds (total: 5) seem to be the same
<nixternal> jsgotangco: http://home.comcast.net/~nixternal/images/misc/poster/poster1.png  <- first draft for a poster
<OHPhoneGuy> bhuvan:  I've not seen the Dapper CD's, so I don't know how to physically tell you that "that one" is the Alternative CD...however, if I remember the Breezy CD's, they were marked.  
<jsgotangco> bhuvan: alternate cd
<jsgotangco> wow it feels like a movie poster!
<nixternal> hehe
<nixternal> the "taste of ubuntu"
<nixternal> fitting, since the taste of chicago just ended
<bhuvan> jsgotangco: oh ok
<bhuvan> OHPhoneGuy: thank you!
<jsgotangco> the cds being shipped are gui-install only
<jsgotangco> you have to download alternate
<bhuvan> jsgotangco: ok
<mdke> morning
<Madpilot> hi mdke 
<jsgotangco> hello
<Burgundavia> hi mdke, jsgotangco
<jsgotangco> hi!
<mvirkkil> jsgotangco: Did you take a look at the docbook -> moinmoin xslt:s?
<jsgotangco> i sure do have this in my machine but havent tested yet
<jsgotangco> will do in a few minutes sorry
<mvirkkil> jsgotangco: No problem.
<mvirkkil> jsgotangco: I could upload a newer version. No major changes, just a few tweaks.
<mvirkkil> jsgotangco: And rudimentary support for images.
<mvirkkil> jsgotangco: crap. No I can't. It's on my machine at home, which seems to have changed IP addresses, so I can't log in :/
<Burgundavia> night all
<Madpilot> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/GenBunToo <-- very strange...
<mvirkkil> fixed, and uploaded: http://users.tkk.fi/~mvirkkil/db2mm/
<mvirkkil> jsgotangco: --^
<jsgotangco> what's a2m-desc.xml?
<mvirkkil> jsgotangco: hmm.. cruft.
<mvirkkil> jsgotangco: it was an old example docbook
<mvirkkil> jsgotangco: https://docteam.ubuntu.com/repos/trunk/teamstuff/article2moin/a2m-desc.xml
<mvirkkil> jsgotangco: Just doing "xsltproc db2mm.xslt yourdocbook.xml" should work
<jsgotangco> ah wait a bit let me check my repo
<mvirkkil> but yourdocbook.xml can't be a book or a part. The root element needs to be one of the following: article chapter colophon appendix glossary
<jsgotangco> ahh
* mvirkkil needs to write better documentation
<mdke> mvirkkil: it doesn't work for books yet?
<mvirkkil> mdke: No. Not yet.
<mvirkkil> mdke: It can only handle docbook->moinmoin when the result is going to be one moinmoin page, ie article, chapter etc.
<mdke> mvirkkil: ok, gotcha. do you plan to work on books too?
<mvirkkil> mdke: Yes, of course :) 
<mdke> awesome
<mvirkkil> mdke: I'm just taking a similar route I did when I went from moin->docbook: first supoprting only 1to1 conversion, and later doing it for "collections".
<mvirkkil> mdke: Unfortunately my this week is booked pretty solid, so chunkin a docbook-book in to multiple parts like chapters etc, is going to have to wait till next week.
<mvirkkil> mdke: But I'd really appreciate if people would test it on their stuff already, and let me know if they find bugs.
<mvirkkil> I've also been thinking about how to support xrefs and other links. It's quite non-trivial.
<mdke> yes
<mdke> presumably it involves the anchor macro, right?
<mvirkkil> mdke: Possibly. But a macro wouldn't work for linkin to headings, since headings aren't parsed. 
<mdke> how does the table of contents macro link to headings?
<mdke> mvirkkil: ok, here is the result of your xslt on the about-ubuntu document: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MatthewEast/AboutUbuntu
<mdke> looks good.
<mvirkkil> mdke: Hmm.. bugs.
<mdke> I'll make a list of things that aren't working
<mvirkkil> mdke: The list is not a list, and I've managed to get &rarr; outputted as "&rarr;" instead of a "-->"
<mvirkkil> mdke: You used xsltproc?
<mdke> yes
<mdke> the itemizedlist bug seems to be the most significant
<mdke> interesting that the first one didn't work, and the second one did
<mvirkkil> mdke: Weird, I think that used to work. I did some minor fixes, seems I broke that.
<mvirkkil> mdke: Would you mind testing with the older 0.4 version?
<mdke> ah, the first list is inside a <para>, the second one isn't. Is that the trouble?
<mvirkkil> mdke: Might be :/ 
<mvirkkil> mdke: I'll need to check it out at home. I'd _love_ to have a smallish testcase :)
<mdke> mvirkkil: bug is there with 0.4 too
<mvirkkil> mdke: ok.
<mvirkkil> mdke: Ahh.. Found the bug.
<mvirkkil> mdke: I'm assuming that everything inside a <para>-tag _must b
<mvirkkil> mdke: I'm assuming that everything inside a <para>-tag _must_ be formatted inline.
<mdke> splendid
<mdke> mvirkkil: i've listed the missing features/bugs on that wiki page
<mvirkkil> mdke: Hmm.. Menuchoice support should work. And so should images.
<mvirkkil> mdke: It seems your version of moinmoin doesn't support embedding html entities like &rarr; which works with newer versions of moin.
<mdke> the broken menu-choice is what you mentioned earlier, in the last bullet point of the page
<mvirkkil> mdke: Could you put up the xml file, so I can see how the images are used?
<mdke> mvirkkil: the menuchoice looks like that in my 1.5 desktop moin too
<mdke> here's the code: https://docteam.ubuntu.com/repos/trunk/ubuntu/aboutubuntu/C/about-ubuntu.xml
<mvirkkil> mdke: How can a <guimenuchoice> have multiple <guimenuitem>:s? I think that should be something like <guisubmenu>
<mdke> mvirkkil: you are probably right, but it's not invalid
<mvirkkil> mdke: No. Unfortunately my code assumes a <guimenuitem> is the last in the row :/
<mvirkkil> mdke: But the itemized list inside a para is the really problematic bug.
<mvirkkil> mdke: That was an exellent catch :)
* mdke nods
<mvirkkil> mdke: I'll have to really rework some of the code to support that :)
<mdke> sorry about that :)
<mvirkkil> mdke: The images work.
<mvirkkil> mdke: It's just that there is no image on the wiki at ../../images/C/ubuntuheader.png
<mdke> heh
<mdke> mvirkkil: shouldn't it prompt for me to upload an attachment?
<mvirkkil> mdke: No, because the link is a direct link like [../../images/C/ubuntuheader.png] , not an attachment:../../images/C/ubuntuheader.png
<mvirkkil> mdke: So if the path would be a complete url to any server anywhere, it would work directly.
<mdke> hmm
<mdke> i wonder if that is the best way to handle images
<mdke> at least those with relative paths
<mvirkkil> mdke: Well, my plan is to have people upload zips, which get extracted, and the images get attached to the main page.
<mvirkkil> mdke: mainpage==book's page
<mdke> where the image is one with a relative path, I would have thought attachment:filename.png would work
<mvirkkil> mdke: You mean, that if it's a relative path, it should write out an attachment:ubuntuheader.png instead?
<mdke> can you think of a reason why not to do that?
<mvirkkil> mdke: It gets a bit tricky if there are something like ../../images/en/flag.png and ../../images/fi/flag.png
<mvirkkil> because then it would just write attachment:flag.png for both, even though they should be different files.
<mdke> good point
* mdke doesnt know the answer to this
<jsgotangco> dum dum dee dum
<ompaul> jsgotangco, I'll guess that tune in 5?
<jsgotangco> haha
<mvirkkil> mdke: Fixing "lists inside para" will result in nasty ugly code.
<mdke> mvirkkil: I'm not very good with code, I'm not sure I can help...
<mvirkkil> Since a para needs to be a single line, so I want to use normalize-space to strip any newlines and spaces in the beginning and end. This is naturally not possible when there are lists present. 
<mvirkkil> mdke: no worries. I wasn't expecting you to. 
<mdke> I can help test though!
<mvirkkil> mdke: And that is very much appreciated :)
<mvirkkil> mdke: Unfortunately this looks like a tough one to crack.
<mvirkkil> mdke: Because any way I fix it, will cause breakage somewhere elese.
<mvirkkil> mdke: I'm asking my mentor for help on this one :)
<mdke> are you able to simply treat it as you would if there was a </para> there before the list?
<mvirkkil> mdke: The problem is that there is no easy way to collect all the stuff before the list in one.
<mvirkkil> mdke: Or there is, but I'm hoping there would be a cleaner solution.
<mdke> ok
<mvirkkil> mdke: It's conceptually a simple matter. My problems are on the code level.
<jjesse> mdke: what do you have to do to get comitt access to the svn?
<jjesse> mdke: i would like to have philbull have comitt permissions as he will be working on the switching guide w/ me
<jjesse> and will have lots to add :0
<mdke> jjesse: contribute patches to the list that demonstrate some constant contribution and the ability to write valid docbook consistently with our styleguide
<mdke> jjesse: ah cool
<jjesse> mdke: we've spent the lasthour discussing and philbull will be emailing the list to let everyone know our thoughts
<mdke> start off with him sending a few patches, and then he can be given access
<mdke> jjesse: there is some suggestion that Ubuntu membership is also a prerequisite
<jjesse> mdke: ok will get him started sending diffs and we then move him along
<mdke> great
<nixternal> @SIG@
<linuxmonkey> i read up on some cool moin moin features
<nixternal> on our wiki, or the actual moinmoin wikiwiki?
<linuxmonkey> moinmoin
<nixternal> ya, there are a lot of macro's they have, plus a lot of scripts...we don't have a lot of them enabled on our machine
<nixternal> like the parsers
<linuxmonkey> yeah
<nixternal> c, java, ruby and stuff like that
<linuxmonkey> the stuff i read about worked like a charm
<nixternal> which ones?
<linuxmonkey> like the url in text mode..so it doesnt come up as a linke
<nixternal> using ``
<nixternal> oh..i know what you are talking about
<nixternal> yes
<linuxmonkey> or using {address}
<nixternal> im just interested really in the wiki > docbook stuff ;)
<nixternal> what i have been doing, is running the desktop moinmoin, and doing all my stuff locally, then copy/paste it up to the main wiki...makes it much easier to edit locally, that way i don't loose anything
* iGama is now away, auto-away after 20 minutes (log\on pager\on)
#ubuntu-doc 2006-07-11
<linuxmonkey> wassup guys
<LaserJock> hard at work, or asleep I'm guessing
<Burgwork> neither
<linuxmonkey> lol.. 
* linuxmonkey is editing the ubuntu portion now that he's done the kubuntu wiki on reposirories
<linuxmonkey> lol
* linuxmonkey needs to learn docbock and other stuff too
<LaserJock> I'm trying to make some scripts to make my life easier
* jenda waves at the docteam ;)
<linuxmonkey> lol @ LaserJock
<LaserJock> linuxmonkey: http://tiber.tauware.de/~laserjock/motuscience/all.html
<LaserJock> ^^ makes my life easer
<linuxmonkey> lol
<linuxmonkey> i was supposed to learn packaging, but no one was willing to help me and i got lost..lol
<LaserJock> https://help.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/packagingguide/C/index.html
<LaserJock> and ask -motu
<LaserJock> I'm up to 452 packages, \o/
<LaserJock> I'm sure glad Debian is around ;-)
<linuxmonkey> yeah im gonna do that. and also need to know how to help with docs too.. all ive been doing is wiki's
<LaserJock> I'd just check out the svn repo and poke around
<Burgundavia> any suggestions for admins for the wiki team?
<Plug> What do they have to dO?
<Burgundavia> Plug: be active on the wiki, be a known quantity in the community, be an Ubuntu member, and the final and most important qualification, I have to know and trust you
<jsgotangco> heh
* bimberi wonders if that's anyone ;P
<jsgotangco> i rarely touch the wiki lately
<jsgotangco> except for some quick edits and cleanups
<Burgundavia> nor do I
<Burgundavia> too little time
<bimberi> Burgundavia: i'd be willing
<Burgundavia> sure, what is your wikiname?
<bimberi> DavidSymons
<Burgundavia> your lp name?
<bimberi> bimberi
<bimberi> i'm already on the wiki team
<Burgundavia> there is not much todo
<Burgundavia> it is more insurance for the "bus event" ie: I get hit by a bus or are otherwise not available
<Burgundavia> it provides a clear person to devolve power too
<Burgundavia> s/too/to
<bimberi> ok, the team's wikipage says "The adminstrators will add you if you have already done a bit of editing on the wiki" - i guess that's doing a search on a candidate's wikiname and having a browse?
<Burgundavia> yep
<bimberi> also, membership gives move/delete rights on help.ubuntu.com iiuc ?
<bimberi> *h.u.c/community i mean
<Burgundavia> currently, it does nothing because the relevant bits are not connected yet
<Burgundavia> it will at some point
<bimberi> kk
<jsgotangco> Burgundavia: when is the book coming out?
<Burgundavia> you also admin/own the aussie team, which played strongly in your favour
<Burgundavia> jsgotangco: no idea, next month?
<jsgotangco> Burgundavia: are you getting copies?
<Burgundavia> no idea
<bimberi> Burgundavia: that was just because i was quick :)
<bimberi> but yes, i'm familiar with launchpad admin
<jsgotangco> nothing stated in your contract i guess if there is one?
<Burgundavia> haven't read that in months
<mdke> morning
<jsgotangco> hi
<mdke> am I an admin of that team already?
<bimberi> hi mdke
<Burgundavia> mdke: the wiki one? you can be if you only ask
<jsgotangco> yes! do not forget our leader!
<bimberi> hang on, i'll make you one :)
<mdke> Burgundavia: sure. I'd suggest Brian too
<Burgundavia> done and one
<Burgundavia> Madpilot: I just gave you the power!
<bimberi> Burgundavia: you've got lots of deputies now, feel free to kick me off :)
<Burgundavia> nope, see no need to
<Madpilot> Burgundavia, which power, and how can I abuse it for my own profit and/or amusement?
<bimberi> yet
<Burgundavia> better to have it more distributed
<bimberi> agreed
<Burgundavia> mdke, jsgotangco, Madpilot and myself already have a great deal of power
* mdke looks around for where he keeps his thunderbolts
* bimberi is glad someone made light of it
<jsgotangco> look deeper in svn
<Burgundavia> hey robitaille
<robitaille> Hi Burgundavia 
<Burgundavia> we don't want the various teams feeling/looking like old boys clubs
<Madpilot> Burgundavia, you mean they aren't? ;)
* mdke doesn't think that is a problem
<Burgundavia> not currently, but it is something that can appear quickly
<jsgotangco> yes
<mdke> as long as the administrators of that team are people who are active and familiar with the wiki, that is ok
<onkarshinde> Can anyone please tell me how to move a page form w.u.c to h.u.c?
<bimberi> my technique - click edit on w.u.c, create on h.u.c/c and copy and paste 
<onkarshinde> bimberi: Ok. But what about redirect?
<bimberi> onkarshinde: i set it up manually on the w.u.c page
<onkarshinde> bimberi: I want to know how to do autoredirect
<bimberi> onkarshinde: for example:  #refresh 0 https://help.ubuntu.com/community/WifiDocs
<onkarshinde> Ok. Thanks.
<bimberi> yw :)
<onkarshinde> bimberi: I plan to move https://wiki.ubuntu.com/RadeonDriverHowto
<bimberi> onkarshinde: iirc the docteam styleguide prefers not to have "Howto" in the name
<mdke> yeah, remove that while you are transferring it
<onkarshinde> bimberi: But then there are pages like BinaryDriverHowto, ActiveDirectoryHowto.
<onkarshinde> mdke: Ok. I will remove it.
<bimberi> onkarshinde: i did say 'prefers' :)
<onkarshinde> bimberi: I copied the page to h.u.c Somehow w.u.c is giving network timeout. Can you please set the redirect?
<mdke> what's the address of the new page?
<bimberi> onkarshinde: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/RadeonDriver  ??
<onkarshinde> bimberi: Please redirect https://wiki.ubuntu.com/RadeonDriverHowto to https://help.ubuntu.com/community/RadeonDriver
<mdke> bimberi: i'll do it, I have it open
<bimberi> yep, doing so 
<bimberi> mdke: ok, it shows as locked by onkarshinde for me anyway
<mdke> me too
<mdke> done, anyway
<bimberi> and tested
<mdke> so, more replies to the "quality assurance on the wiki" and "categories on the wiki" threads please
<Burgundavia> mdke: will do so, but right now I need to sleep
<mdke> jjesse: what's the thinking behind doing switching as a book rather than an article?
<jsgotangco> ?
<jjesse> mdke: the current thought was that each "chapter" would address a specific issue of switching from windows
<jjesse> mdke: for example dealing with specific applications tht will help you move from windows might be larger then one article
<jjesse> i'm going to reply to phil's email he sent out to the list and further explain some thigns
<jjesse> but this is all subject to change :)
<mdke> jjesse: I would have thought an article would work better, myself. Then each "chapter" just becomes a section
<mdke> it probably doesn't make a serious difference, I guess
<mdke> it would be nice to link it in with other documents, such as manuals for specific applications, if you think that is appropriate
<jjesse> no that's a great idea to link to other material and other applications
<jjesse> would need help on how to do that
<mdke> it's very easy for Gnome, probably is equally easy for Kde
* linuxmonkey likes what was done to repositories section in the HUC :)
<jjesse> ok
<linuxmonkey> general page then branch off to the different ubuntu/kubuntu.
<linuxmonkey> that way its not all cluttered and then on those pages at the botton could have a more infomation section linking to the help pages for that application
<linuxmonkey> or applications used
<mdke> linuxmonkey: this is more about a document for the distribution, rather than the wiki...
<linuxmonkey> ah ok
<jsgotangco> goodnight
<mdz> mgalvin: anything I can do to help with UWN?
<mgalvin> mdz: i've just been to busy to get to it this week, if you have time today please feel free to finish it up and send it out, i will certainly have time again starting next week to get them out on time again
<mgalvin> i might have some time today but i can promise i could finish it today
<mgalvin> s/can/can't/
<mgalvin> sorry about the delay this week, its just been very hectic for me :-/
<mdz> understood
<nixternal> mdz and mgalvin, if you need help with it, i can lend a hand today after the cc meeting
<mgalvin> nixternal: any help is always welcome :)
<LaserJock> mgalvin: is there a draft on the wiki?
<mgalvin> yea it the #6 WIP at: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuWeeklyNewsletter/Issue6
<LaserJock> lloydinho: hi!
<lloydinho> Hi LaserJock!
<LaserJock> lloydinho: how's it going? you survived the trip home I assume
<lloydinho> LaserJock: I did indeed, though I went off to the next conference immediately following the one in Paris.
<lloydinho> I spent a week at the GUADEC conference near Barcelona. 
<lloydinho> To see what life is like with the upstream...
<LaserJock> very cool
<LaserJock> did they complain about downstream a lot? ;-)
<lloydinho> not at all, really. 
<lloydinho> Daniel and Seb had a Q&A session about Ubuntu, and most of the people there were already happy Ubuntu users.
<LaserJock> cool, I actually would expect some issues. good to hear
<lloydinho> They didn't have much bother with Ubuntu, though they were slightly annoyed with Launchpad not being open.
<lloydinho> It seems that most of the trouble with Upstream is with Debian, not GNOME.
<LaserJock> interesting
<LaserJock> I think quite a bit of that has to do with Daniel and Seb
<lloydinho> Yeah, Seb is one the top 3 bug reporters on the GNOME bugzilla.
<lloydinho> The amount of work that he ensures reaches GNOME is quite astounding.
<LaserJock> yes
<lloydinho> (but of course, he spends most of his working day sorting useful Launchpad bug reports back upstream)
<LaserJock> did you notice many differences between Ubuntu and Gnome communities, from the anthropological prespective
<lloydinho> Well, just the way that the conferences were arranged was obviously dissimilar
<lloydinho> I got the impression that the GUADEC was much more of a playful "summer camp for geeks" sort of thing.
<LaserJock> yeah
<lloydinho> Not the work-intensive week that was the Ubuntu Summit.
<LaserJock> Paris was my first linux conference so I have nothing to compare too :-)
<lloydinho> I wrote a bit about the differences in my blog: http://alligevel.blogspot.com/2006/07/back-from-field.html
<lloydinho> Yeah, I have little to compare to as well, but from I've heard, the GUADEC was an extraordinarily successful conference for "a very vibrant community".
<LaserJock> being a scientist and having a wife in the social sciences, I'm quite interested in your work. I hope you have a lot of success with it
<lloydinho> Hey, so do I! But thanks. It's really fascinating work.
<LaserJock> Debian is a community that is totally fascinating to me
<lloydinho> have you heard of Biella Coleman's work on Debian?
<LaserJock> no
<LaserJock> do you have a reference for that?
<lloydinho> http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=805287
<lloydinho> It's a really good paper.
<linuxmonkey> wassup
<LaserJock> lloydinho: so will your entire thesis be on Ubuntu?
<lloydinho> yes, that is the plan. 
<lloydinho> And there is plenty of stuff to look at as well.
<lloydinho> If you're interested, My original fieldwork proposal is on my blog as well.
<LaserJock> ah cool
<lloydinho> under the "Writings" section in the right hand column.
<lloydinho> The funny thing is that I wrote that proposal in january, and it is really interesting to see how all sorts of aspects appear that I haven't thought of before.
<lloydinho> So many ideas to look at.
<LaserJock> yes
<LaserJock> lloydinho: oh, I like the research questions
<lloydinho> LaserJock: thanks! Some of them are tricky to answer, though..
<LaserJock> yes
<LaserJock> lloydinho: as an outsider (no CS experience/training or previous OSS experience) there are some things I had to learn for sure ;-)
<LaserJock> socially
<lloydinho> how so?
<LaserJock> I remeber the day I told -motu that one of our dept computers had been hacked
<LaserJock> I got soundly lashed for using the term hacked in a negative sense ;-)
<lloydinho> oh yes. As you can see in my proposal,  I use the term hackers a lot.
<LaserJock> yes, I noticed
<lloydinho> I had to make it specifically clear what I meant with term.
<LaserJock> also learning communication mechanisms
<lloydinho> Like IRC?
<LaserJock> I wasn't on any mailing lists or IRC before working on Ubuntu
<lloydinho> me neither. It is a very special way of communicating.
<lloydinho> How did you adapt to it?
<LaserJock> brute force I suppose, I don't think I really like mailing lists still
<LaserJock> I enjoy IRC... too much in fact
<Burgwork> heh
<LaserJock> it's sort of the closest to a real conversation we get for the most part
<LaserJock> I had to get used to TZ's, software politics, relationships between different groups/projects
<lloydinho> Yeah. It is a lot.
<LaserJock> when I first started I had no idea what the GPL was or what FLOSS meant
<LaserJock> I knew sort of what open source was
<lloydinho> It is pretty cool that you made it through all of that. It is a lot of cultural knowledge to digest.
<LaserJock> it is, and I'm still working on it every day
<LaserJock> I'd say that I spend more time on social work than technical work right now
<lloydinho> Well, that is central in this sort of community.
<lloydinho> Did you see the job posting for the Community Manager? 
<LaserJock> yes I did
<lloydinho> I thought that was curious.
<LaserJock> I think that is quite interesting
<lloydinho> On one hand, you want somebody who is respected or accepted in the community.
<lloydinho> On the other, you want someone who has enough distance to the project not to get too involved in personal matters.
<nixternal> wasabi LaserJock
<lloydinho> So as to be able to advise people to stand down if necessary.
<LaserJock> I think it is interesting also from a sense of having a Canonical employee as a Community manager
<LaserJock> I've been thinking/looking at the Canonical-Ubuntu relationship some lately
<lloydinho> I think very few people would do a good job in such a position. But it is a unique position, and I'll be quite interested to see how that one develops.
<LaserJock> me too
<LaserJock> as I'm part of various communities they will be managing ;-)
<LaserJock> I have seen the problem that Canonical is trying to address with that position
<lloydinho> what is that?
<LaserJock> basically, each of the communities are only as good as their leadership/structure
<LaserJock> so some (the doc team is a good example I think) do well
<LaserJock> others don't do so well
<LaserJock> also, a position like that require enough time that it would be basically impossible on a volunteer basis
* lloydinho nods
<LaserJock> so you basically end up with a paid person that can ensure that all the various communities inside Ubuntu are on track and have the leadership and structure they need to be succesful
<lloydinho> yeah. It is probably the best way to keep the community energized. That was what all of the GUADEC conference was about.
<LaserJock> when the project was smaller it was easier to keep track of the various teams and people
<LaserJock> yes, keep motivation up is essential
<LaserJock> volunteers working as many hours as most in this project do easy burn out
<lloydinho> Some of the GNOME head honchos like Luis Villa or Jeff Waugh do this very well.
<lloydinho> But since Ubuntu is still so young a project, we haven't had much time to grow our own such people.
<lloydinho> It would be terrible if the community manager became "that canonical guy"
<LaserJock> right
<LaserJock> it will be interesting to see who gets the position
<lloydinho> I thought immediately that somebody like Mako or mdz would be the best people for the job, since they're already so respected in the community.
<lloydinho> But you can't really hire them twice. ;-)
<LaserJock> yeah, the issue is that most of the people who would be good for the job are already very valuable in the position that they have
<LaserJock> mako is not employeed by Canonical so I guess he could be rehired ;-)
<LaserJock> but I think he wants to focus on other things
<nixternal> sorry for spamming, but i am going for ubuntu membership, and as long as i haven't made you made at me, you are welcome to provide support, that is of course if i did something to help you out. thanks guys!!! 10 minutes til meeting
<lloydinho> yeah. He is very busy with the OLPC project and other stuff,
<LaserJock> nixternal: CC meeting time already? I'll try to be there
<lloydinho> ooh. yes.
<nixternal> that it is LaserJock, i appreciate it...if you can't make it, i will change have that voice over put in on that last podcast ;)
<LaserJock> haha
<LaserJock> my first interview ever, all ruined by a rouge membership applicant ;-)
<nixternal> lol
<LaserJock> nixternal: if you were going for membership in Edubuntu, I'd get to grill you :-)
<LaserJock> to bad
<nixternal> maybe one of these days...as i am trying to get a little more involved since i am pushing edubuntu to my local church and schools
<LaserJock> good, good
<nixternal> the church i goto is huge, so big in fact they have a large computer lab for children
<LaserJock> wow
<nixternal> thats where i fit in ;)
<nixternal> i also had the opportunity of installing 40 systems total, 20 donated by Bill and Melinda gates, and 20 refurbed system with Edubuntu to a couple under priviledged schools
<LaserJock> well, some day there will be an Ubuntu based distro for churches with lots of good stuff, hopefully with LTSP and everything
<nixternal> the windows boxes are empty, just windows, and they have to purchase software...they use the Edubuntu boxes and a teacher even informed me how great schooltool is..which i want to play with now
<LaserJock> way cool
<nixternal> when i did this, i had no idea the power of Edubuntu and the free apps available for it...the teacher informed me ;)
<LaserJock> well, we're working on getting it even better for edgy
<nixternal> i can't wait..i have a system here with it setup, and i just need to find time to play with it more
<LaserJock> I'm going to work on getting some meta-package in Universe to pull together common apps
<nixternal> thats cool
<LaserJock> and we are trying to get XFCE on there for low end computers
<nixternal> i have a couple of friends who are teachers and i want to show them what it can do..maybe get them interested
<LaserJock> nixternal: make sure to tell them we'd love feedback from teachers
<nixternal> i can do that
<nixternal> i am waiting for my Edubuntu cd's, and i will put a pamphlet together so when i hand them out they will get extra info like that for it
<LaserJock> take a look at http://doc.ubuntu.com/edubuntu/school-advocacy/C/index.html if you haven't already
<nixternal> nice
<LaserJock> it is a little Edubuntu pamphlet that will hopefully go around England
<Burgwork> nixternal, I will have an edubuntu case study done by the end of the week I expect
<nixternal> i have the svn local, so i will go through all of that, for sure
<nixternal> good deal Burgwork, i know you have been working diligently on it
<LaserJock> Burgwork: great
<Burgwork> I just need to get a free evening to work on it. So far I have failed completely in that regard
<LaserJock> haha, I've given up on the thought of having a free evening
<LaserJock> I've almost completly given up on TV and gaming
<Burgwork> I am single, so that helps
<nixternal> what is TV?
<nixternal> gaming i gave up 4 years ago
<LaserJock> that thing I don't watch any more
<nixternal> hehe
<LaserJock> other then the News to see how bad Reno is
<nixternal> i catch the news once in a great while...but thats what akregator is for
<LaserJock> harder to see how many people have been killed in my neighborhood via RSS
<nixternal> haha
<LaserJock> haha, that was fun
#ubuntu-doc 2006-07-12
<nixternal> hiya jsgotangco
<jsgotangco> hey nixternal
<jsgotangco> what's up
<nixternal> recovering from a neice and nephew overload
<nixternal> they came right as the CC meeting started too
<jsgotangco> doh!
* jsgotangco haven't checked CC log
<nixternal> Ubuntu Chicago is official!!!!
<jsgotangco> woohooo
<jsgotangco> i did wake up at 4am but there was no power at home because of a nearby typhoon
<jsgotangco> i woke up because i felt no air conditioining lol
<nixternal> we should have Ubuntu hosting next week to hold a small front page/news page, and a small forums for communications..we still have a few that doesn't like irc ;)
<nixternal> i had to turn on ac a little while ago..very humid here
<jsgotangco> really
<jsgotangco> thats still good news
<jsgotangco> reading log brb
<Madpilot> hi all
<Burgundavia> hey Madpilot, not going to VLUG?
<Madpilot> forgot it was tonight, until I saw the email about half an hour ago 
<Burgundavia> about to head out now, waiting for clothes to dry
<Madpilot> Burgundavia, "All CategoryCleanup pages should be tagged with a bar across the top," - I don't think I've ever seen this - is there a macro for it, or a standard chunk to cut & paste?
<Burgundavia> Madpilot: neither currently, but we need such a bar
<Madpilot> can MoinMoin do macros like Mediawiki does?
<jsgotangco> we can pray to the rain god
<Burgundavia> hmm, I think so, but I am certain how
<Burgundavia> *I am not
<Madpilot> hi jsgotangco 
<jsgotangco> hey Madpilot
<mdke> Madpilot: I'm talking to the moin people about it, there is no feature like that yet
<Madpilot> mdke, too bad
* Madpilot stands back so Corey can resume his "switch to MediaWiki" song & dance routine... ;)
<mdke> http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/forum.php?thread_id=22147653&forum_id=623
<jsgotangco> wow those are huge fonts
<mdke> yeah
<Burgundavia> sf just changed
<Burgundavia> I noticed that at work too
<Madpilot> good, glad the giant fonts aren't just an Opera quirk :)
* jsgotangco personally likes the size of fonts in opera
<Burgundavia> mdke: actually, mediawiki does it opposite
<mdke> yes, indeed
<Burgundavia> the template for the cleanup tag contains the code to add the page to that category
<Burgundavia> or whatever tag
<mdke> see my second email in that thread
<jsgotangco> mdke knows all
<jsgotangco> *g*
<Burgundavia> ah yes
<Burgundavia> I am trying to plow through a lot of email before I have to go to bed
<mdke> anyway, I had an email from someone who would like to help with that, so we might be able to get it sorted
<Burgundavia> ok, Blam is seriously pissing me off
<jsgotangco> really, I've switched for Liferea ever since
<Burgundavia> I am about to, given that liferea is alive and blam is not
<Burgundavia> this has got to be one of the best done maps I have seen (the specific continent section) http://old.koha.org/about/map/
* mdke hugs thunderbird
<jsgotangco> yeah
<jsgotangco> hmmm
<jsgotangco> this docbook/mallard thing is not going anywhere
<jsgotangco> im sure gnome would have more contributors if its not such a pain to grab the sources itself
<jsgotangco> or well documented even
<mdke> jsgotangco: I think it is going somewhere
<mdke> it's a very useful discussion indeed
<jsgotangco> sure dont get me wrong, i mean
<Burgundavia> have we looked into integrated wiki and help searching?
<mdke> Burgundavia: no... I'm kinda hoping that everything will be on the wiki by next release cycle
<Burgundavia> ah, due to mvrikkils stuff?
<mdke> well, not necessarily worked on in the wiki, but published there
<Burgundavia> mdke: what is the move procedure?
<Burgundavia> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelCustomBuild
<mdke> Burgundavia: get the raw code, put it on the new wiki, insert a redirect with "#refresh 0 url"
<Madpilot> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MusicWhileInstalling <-- this one's for CategorySpecsThatMakeLittleSense...
<Burgundavia> ok, the art team needs to be told not to move stuff around needlessly
<Burgundavia> followed a link from the tango project and ended up at a deadend
<Burgundavia> even I could not figure out where it should have linked to
<jenda> mdke: ping
<mdke> jenda: pong
<jenda> mdke: We have this unofficial Jabber channel which I recently had you add to http://www.ubuntu.com/support/local
<jenda> The problem is that the admins of that are extremely stubborn in NOT abiding by the CoC or signing it.
<mdke> jenda: right
<mdke> you want me to remove it?
<jenda> Well, do you think it should be removed? I do.
<jsgotangco> go go go!
<jsgotangco> =)
<mdke> jenda: I don't know the details, but if you want to remove it for now, that's fine by me. Who is team contact for -czech?
<jenda> ondrej sury
<mdke> get him to email me?
<jenda> I'll talk to him about it - I know he's opposed to the Jabber room, but I was the one who had it put up there.
<mdke> does that sound reasonable?
<jenda> Yes, I'll do that.
<mdke> great
<mvirkkil> mdke: Fixing that "paragraph can contain lists" bug is done now. Not nicely done, but it works.
<mvirkkil> Going from docbook->moin->docbook will result in the list ending up outside the paragraph, since there is no consept of having lists inside paragraphs in the moin markup.
<mvirkkil> I thought about formatting a list in a paragraph inline like: These are the things I like: pizza; hotdogs; java; python, and so on.
<mdke> mvirkkil: I don't think roundtripping is something you should worry about much
<mvirkkil> mdke: No, I don't worry about it.
<mdke> nice work on fixing it
<mvirkkil> mdke: I just use it to verify that I'm getting approximately ok results.
<mdke> yeah
<jsgotangco> goodnight
<jenda> mdke: would you know who's in charge of lists.ubunt.com?
<jenda> The Chicago LoCo would like their own list - nixternal?
<nixternal> yes sir they would
<mdke> jenda: yes, jeff waugh is in charge of it
<jenda> OK, thanks
#ubuntu-doc 2006-07-13
<Burgwork> anyone alive with a moment or two? 
<Burgwork> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BootOptions
<Burgwork> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/EchoMia
<Burgwork> both need moving
<nixternal> they need to get over to h.u.c/c?
<Burgwork> yep
<nixternal> done deal
* nixternal can't
<nixternal> doh
<nixternal> haha
<nixternal> maybe if i logon
<jsgotangco> good morning
<Burgwork> hello
<nixternal> hiya jsgotangco
<nixternal> finished Burgwork!!!
<Burgwork> thanks
<nixternal> Burgwork: you going to do both KDE and Gnome gui package managers?  or would you like some assistance with the KDE side?
<nixternal> or, just make the KDE guys install Synaptic ;)
<jsgotangco> adept is actually nice but with serious interface issues
<nixternal> i agree
<Burgwork> nixternal, I could do that
<Burgwork> use help, that is
<nixternal> ok, i will put myself in the member portion then ;)
<nixternal> Madpilot: just the person i wanted to chat with, you getting the #6 UWN out?
<Madpilot> not I
<nixternal> k
<Madpilot> one of the Matts in charge of UWN - Matt Galvin, isn't it?
<nixternal> i believe mgalvin is busy on it..i just noticed you worked on it last
<nixternal> mpt might be working on it as well
<nixternal> i can't remember..as i offered to help
<crimsun> mgalvin
<nixternal> i have to check my logs..a couple of nights ago he said he might be to busy to do so
<Burgundavia> nixternal: mgalvin did say he was too busy
<Burgundavia> hey pygi
<pygi> hey Burgundavia, whats up?
<nixternal> i thought so Burgundavia, just wasn't 100% for sure
<Burgundavia> not much
<Burgundavia> just updated a family friend to Dapper
<mpt> not me, nixternal 
<nixternal> ok..then it was mdz...another m name ;)
<mpt> actually I suggested it be part of the Fridge
<Madpilot> What's up with the Fridge, anyway? There's been nothing new on it for over a month now...
<Burgundavia> nixternal: got another one for you to move: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/HoTTProxy
* nixternal gets on it
<Burgundavia> thanks, I am about to crash
<nixternal> all done..no problem
<mdke> morning
<nixternal> mornin' mdke
<Burgundavia> morning mdke, night all
<xur1z> when browsing wiki.ubuntu.com, clicking on the "6.06" link at top of page downloads instead (using Safari v2 only). is there a bugzilla or similar i can report it to?
<xur1z> it just d/l the HTML of the page. but the 5.10 link works ok ...
<xur1z> any bots here? hello bots.
<Madpilot> hi xur1z 
<xur1z> hey mad
<Madpilot> that sounds like a Safari bug, tbh
<xur1z> yep :)
<xur1z> probably fooled by the .06 (which is funny, cos i normally only expect exploder to play those tricks)
<xur1z> but the .10 link works fine ... can't see any reason a wiki page would have differing headers
<Madpilot> neither can I
<xur1z> there isn't any inline wiki syntax for header fiddling, is there?
<xur1z> btw, what wiki is wiki.ubuntu.org on?
<Madpilot> although neither of those links is actually a wiki page - only the "Community Docs" link is to the wiki
<Madpilot> MoinMoin
<xur1z> ah moin
<xur1z> cool
<xur1z> (i'm ignorant of python, but use trac and love it)
<xur1z> so i should just report it to info@ubuntulinux.org? that seems to be bug report method for the site?
<Madpilot> just a sec
<Madpilot> bugs.ubuntu.com - file it under the ubuntu-docs product, that'll get the docteam's attention
<xur1z> thx madpilot
<Madpilot> np
<xur1z> i sensed there was a better way than "pls email the webmaster" :)
<xur1z> hah just saw bug #1 again
<Ubugtu> Malone bug 1 in Ubuntu Dapper "Microsoft has a majority market share" [Critical,Confirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/1
<xur1z> pastebin.cack?
<Madpilot> hmm?
<xur1z> sorry, thought i was yakking in ##php now :|
<xur1z> cheers madp :)
<wizard> Hi,
<wizard> is there any tutorial to help me to convert .po files to html or pdf?
<wizard> the .po files that I want to convert are documentation files (serverguide to be precise..)
<wizard> the general idea is to test translation files 
<mdke> wizard: you have to convert them to xml first
<wizard> ok, please tell me how.
<mdke> it's quite complicated, but you can try getting our repository and reading https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/Translation
<mdke> make sure you use the dapper branch of our repository
<wizard> ok, thanks
<wizard> yes, but I'm using the Portugues mirror, any problem with that?
<mdke> I haven't heard of a mirror of our repository
<wizard> Ok, so I can I be sure of using your repository?
<mdke> no, I mean our subversion repository, where we store our documents
<mdke> WaterSevenUb: can you help wizard out with his problem?
<WaterSevenUb> mdke, I'm trying to help him also, not so much time now unfortunately.
<mdke> ok, thanks
<mdke> it's not easy
<jsgotangco> hmm what does this thing contain that it takes ages just to branch
<jsgotangco> jenda: ^^
<jsgotangco> :D
<iGama> Hy
<jjesse> hello
<WaterSevenUb> mdke, quick question. iGama just told me that probably there will be a Point release....
<mpt> hehehehe
<mpt> http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/html3/notes.html
<mpt> We should stop using DocBook and start using HTML 3.0!
<WaterSevenUb> mdke, are you considering "refreshing" documentation with new translations since you probably will have to change references 6.06 to something like 6.06a or whatever... ?
<mpt> ooh
* mpt finds a typo in Mac Help
<mdke> WaterSevenUb: a point release with a new version number?
<WaterSevenUb> mdke, I don't know :-)
* mdke doubts it
<WaterSevenUb> ok
<iGama> there is just that ther is going to be a point release
<iGama> the doubt is, will the updates be only bugs, fixe, or languages pack to?
<iGama> i know that the docs have nothing to do with the lang-packs, its just a question :p
<mdke> iGama: i suppose, although you have to ask elsewhere, that it will be a re-release of the iso with the security and other updates that have been released already
<iGama> have to wait and see...
<mdke> indeed
<mvirkkil> mdke: By the way, seems the support for the Include-macro was broken, should be fixed now (but please use the Insert macro instead, if possible)
<nixternal> moins everyone
#ubuntu-doc 2006-07-14
<jsgotangco> good mornin
<theCore> good evening ;)
<Burgwork> hello all
<nixternal> well hello there ;)
<nixternal> hey, that guy printed out the poster i showed you all last night/yesterday...he said it turned out fine, and that nothing was pixelated..i think i lucked out with the skyline image on that one
<jsgotangco> Burgundavia: 1-2 seconds is hardly "slow" ;)
<Burgundavia> jsgotangco: yes it is
<Burgundavia> when I am getting up to go the washroom, it is
<jsgotangco> no its not you hardly notice a second passing by unless you're really not doing anything
<Burgundavia> except when IT SHOULDN'T TAKE THAT LONG!!!!
<Burgundavia> on my FC4 box it takes me one click
<Burgundavia> not click ..... wait .... click
<jsgotangco> i tink its overreacting..but i do agree that the lock menu should come back
<Burgundavia> it is annoying
<Burgundavia> it shows lack of polish, by not looking at real world use cases
<jsgotangco> it does get annoying and #3 is very true
<theCore> Burgundavia: what is slow?
<Burgundavia> theCore: launching the logout dialog
<theCore> Burgundavia: I agree
<theCore> Burgundavia: it should pop right away
<theCore> Burgundavia: what is the program name?
<Burgundavia> for which, the logout dialog
<Burgundavia> ?
<Burgundavia> gnome-session
<theCore> for the logout dialog
<theCore> it's gnome-session? I thought gnome-session was the session config box...
<Burgundavia> yep
<Burgundavia> it is both
<theCore> How could I launch the logout dialog from command line?
<Burgundavia> no idea
<theCore> Burgundavia: then, do you know where the python script for it is stored?
<Burgundavia> look at the listing of files for gnome-session
<Burgundavia> it will tell you
<theCore> nope, nothing
<theCore> expect the images for it'
<theCore> except*
<Burgundavia> theCore: it is there
<Burgundavia> theCore: ask vuntz, he can tell you
<theCore> `dpkg -L gnome-session | xargs file',  doesn't show me anything
* #ubuntu-doc  [freenode-info]  why register and identify? your IRC nick is how people know you. http://freenode.net/faq.shtml#nicksetup
<nixternal> better
<jsgotangco> http://edition.cnn.com/2006/US/07/13/coors.arrest.ap/index.html
<jsgotangco> lol
<Laser_away> Burgundavia: bah, I didn't know I was in -devel
<Burgundavia> Laser_away: that you are
<Laser_away> I hate it when I got spouting of in -devel when I don't know it
<Laser_away> oh well
<Laser_away> Burgundavia: I had a question about DM for you
<Burgundavia> shoot
<Laser_away> Burgundavia: I was wondering if it really should be in the new -commercial repo?
<Burgundavia> hmm
<Burgundavia> I don't think so
<jsgotangco> hey
<Laser_away> I just wondered
<Burgundavia> we are trying to get it more widely used
<LaserJock> sure
* jsgotangco smells something sinister coming up
<Burgundavia> jsgotangco: nothing
<LaserJock> what? me? nooooo
<Burgundavia> hmm, still haven't had a press release on that
<Burgundavia> I will bug tim/malc tomorrow on that
<LaserJock> we already did the sinister stuff :-)
<jsgotangco> i see
<LaserJock> jsgotangco: I'm really liking kalzium's data, they use xml and have a whole chemistry glossary
* jsgotangco dived in to jokosher development if its worth sharing
<Burgundavia> jsgotangco: http://archive.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/pool/multiverse/d/desktop-multiplier/
<Burgundavia> jsgotangco: very cool
<jsgotangco> mostly glade stuff though
<jsgotangco> desktop multiplier?
<jsgotangco> Userful's Virtualized X-Server (Trial Version)
<LaserJock> yep
<jsgotangco> intereesting
<Burgundavia> LaserJock was paid to package it
<jsgotangco> wow
<LaserJock> it was interesting
<jsgotangco> Pakete: desktop-multiplier
<jsgotangco> Bago: oo
<jsgotangco> Katayuan: hindi naka-instol
<jsgotangco> Bersyon: 2.2-3-0ubuntu1
<jsgotangco> Prioridad: optional
<LaserJock> woah
<jsgotangco> Tagapamahala: Userful Corporation <support@userful.com>
<LaserJock> yeah
<LaserJock> I let them deal with the bugs ;-)
<jsgotangco> opppss i was in my locale sorry
<Burgundavia> no worries, we can figure it out
<Burgundavia> :)
<jsgotangco> so its basically like rdp?
<Burgundavia> no
<jsgotangco> wait bad comparison
<Burgundavia> multihead/multiseat X
<jsgotangco> yeah
<Burgundavia> try it
<Burgundavia> however, it might screwup
<Burgundavia> my laptop just crashes constantly with it
<jsgotangco> so basically i need to have at least 2 video cards right?
<jsgotangco> and of course, two keyboards and stuff
<Burgundavia> nope
<LaserJock> Burgundavia: does it do it with RHEL?
<Burgundavia> only one multihead one will work
<Burgundavia> we use Fedora
<jsgotangco> usb devices work?
<jsgotangco> usb kb/mouse
<Burgundavia> yep
<jsgotangco> interesting
<Burgundavia> hmm, you might need to patch gnome-vfs
<Burgundavia> http://openuserful.sourceforge.net/wiki/in
<Burgundavia> http://openuserful.sourceforge.net/wiki/index.php/Patches
<jsgotangco> the problem is
<jsgotangco> all machines at work at em64t with 64bit kernels installed
<jsgotangco> i guess it should work
<Burgundavia> ah
<Burgundavia> ours is closed source crap, sadly
<Burgundavia> I am working on them to open source at least the X stuff
<jsgotangco> that would be neat
<jsgotangco> but then i might not be able to test much here since im bound to a new job in a month
<LaserJock> yeah, I hope that getting the trial version in Ubuntu gets them leaning in the open source direction
<Burgundavia> heh
<Burgundavia> where are you headed?
<LaserJock> yeah
<jsgotangco> a foundation for a tv network
<jsgotangco> joining to spearhead an adoption project for schools
<Burgundavia> very cool
<jsgotangco> and connect them to the net
<LaserJock> Burgundavia: have you ever administered a mediawiki wiki?
<jsgotangco> most schools down south have very bad student-computer ratio
<Burgundavia> LaserJock: somewhat
<Burgundavia> what sort of issue are you having?
<LaserJock> I'm trying to figure out access restrictions for this wiki I made for my dept.
<LaserJock> and just general customization
<jsgotangco> its basically a one or all approach
<Burgundavia> there are good docs on mediawiki.org
<jsgotangco> done everyting in the Local setting file
<Burgundavia> you can restrict certain people to viewing certain namespaces
<Burgundavia> ie: only admins can view a certain namespace
<LaserJock> it appears that currently anybody can sign up for an account on the wiki
<Burgundavia> thinking about doing that for a roleplaying game
<jsgotangco> you can disable that
<Burgundavia> you can restrict that too
<jsgotangco> and make only the admin create the account
<Burgundavia> observe wiki.userful.ca
<jsgotangco> the only thing about mediawiki is that is has relatively weak user management
<Burgundavia> yes
<jsgotangco> editng the user/password tables is like asking for a brutal axe massacre to happen
<LaserJock> Burgundavia: so could I make an account on wiki.userful.ca or does and administrator have to do that?
<Burgundavia> nope, administrator has todo that
<Burgundavia> try
<LaserJock> k
<LaserJock> that looks like somewhat what I want to do
<LaserJock> I don't mind everybody reading stuff (except a couple internal pages) but I only want like 10 people to be able to edit
<jsgotangco> yep
<jsgotangco> you can just lock the pages
<jsgotangco> are they a lot of pages?
<LaserJock> well, I haven't made any yet ;-)
<LaserJock> I'm just getting it set up
<LaserJock> this is a grad student organization
<jsgotangco> yeah let's say you just want to lock the frontpage for admins to edit you can do that
<jsgotangco> that's how mediawiki does it
<jsgotangco> then just create templates and stuff for other people to edit so that it reflects the frontpage
<LaserJock> too bad moin didn't pull through, I'm more familiar with it
<LaserJock> I don't know PHP
<jsgotangco> its pretty good for presentation-level data
<LaserJock> I think it'll work out ok, it's just the learning curve will be a bit steaper for me
<LaserJock> the sysadmin seems to know what he's doing WRT the mysql database
<LaserJock> ok, I gotta get to bed, I found a good page on the mediawiki wiki
<Burgundavia> hey robitaille
<robitaille> Hi Burgundavia 
<Burgundavia> night all
* mdke mornings
<jsgotangco> morning!
<jenda> morning.
<jenda> jsgotangco: what was that earlier?
<jenda> There's about 2 megs of data there, graphics.
<jsgotangco> ?
<jsgotangco> ahhh
<jsgotangco> no i was bitching how slow bzr+lp can get
<jsgotangco> =D
<joachim-n> hi
<jsgotangco> goodnight
<nixternal> well hello there everyone!!!
<LaserJock> hi nixternal 
<nixternal> well hello there sir
<jsgotangco> hi nixternal
<jsgotangco> goodnight nixternal
<nixternal> hiya jsgotangco
<nixternal> hahah
<nixternal> i thought i seen that somewhere
<nixternal> nite jsgotangco
<LaserJock> went to my first LUG meeting last night :-)
<nixternal> and?
<jsgotangco> did they offer you their virgins?
<LaserJock> no
<LaserJock> it was fun
<LaserJock> we talked about Python and Xen
<jsgotangco> pfftt
<jsgotangco> in our LUG we just get drunk
<nixternal> haha 
<jsgotangco> because we're too sick of talking tech
<LaserJock> it was cool though, a fair amount of Debian/Ubuntu users with some Gentoo/BSD thrown in
<LaserJock> jsgotangco: oh, the drinking was afterwards
<nixternal> the LUG's here all seem to be FC, SuSe, and Slackware
<LaserJock> although I had to skip it to get home at a decent hour
<nixternal> with a few Debian users, and then ME!!!
<LaserJock> yikes
<LaserJock> jsgotangco: one of the guys works for the school district
<jsgotangco> err okay
<LaserJock> he's wanting to get Linux into the schools here
<LaserJock> I'll have to work on him ;-)
<nixternal> speaking of linux in schools, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Classroom   you guys need to teach ;)
<LaserJock> hah
<LaserJock> what can I teach
<LaserJock> "this is how irssi+screen can rule IRC"
<nixternal> i think hybrid is on that one ;)
<pygi> LaserJock, :)
<LaserJock> "GUI no more, just use a terminal"
<nixternal> you can do the laser ;)
<LaserJock> hehe
<pygi> !!!
<nixternal> mini-me, stop humping the laser ;)
<LaserJock> how I can control the laser using Debian Sarge+ some C
<LaserJock> nixternal: yeah, we have a no laser-humping policy
<LaserJock> ;-)
<nixternal> hahaha
<jsgotangco> jeezz
<LaserJock> jsgotangco: sorry
<nixternal> hahaha
<trappist> LaserJock: irssi + screen + bitlbee = chat nirvana
<jsgotangco> with bitlbee i agree
<nixternal> there is one "chat client" that bitlbee is missing right?
<nixternal> otherwise it is fully loaded
<LaserJock> it's just there is only 3 movies that come to mind when you talk about lasers :-)
<nixternal> i know them too
<nixternal> i know 1 of them
<nixternal> the young scientist
<trappist> nixternal: add jabber to the mix and you're probably covered
<nixternal> where they pop popcorn in the professor's house
<nixternal> ya, i need to get back over to irssi and fire up the bitlbee
<trappist> real genius
<jsgotangco> digging through my old HD, i just found my 100+ song strong KISS MP3s
<nixternal> ya
<nixternal> lol
<nixternal> i couldn't remember the name
<nixternal> with val kilmer
<LaserJock> I don't get the point of bitlbee
<trappist> LaserJock: lets you use your irc client to chat on msn, yahoo, aim, icq, etc.
<LaserJock> and that's useful because ...?
<LaserJock> :-)
<trappist> so I don't have to run irssi *and* gaim.
<nixternal> well, with bitlbee, can't you connect any irc client to it really?  as it doesn't have to be irssi, because it acts kind of like an irc server right?
<trappist> nixternal: right.
<jsgotangco> you just use it in one console interface
<LaserJock> I don't use IM so I guess that's why I'm not really impressed
<LaserJock> but I get the idea
<jsgotangco> that's so uncool...no IM
<jsgotangco> go back and hump the laser
<LaserJock> why would I use IM, I've got IRC
<jsgotangco> because i like talking to teenagers?
<jsgotangco> lol
<jsgotangco> haha
* jsgotangco kidding
<nixternal> the only reason i have im is family (which are all skype now) and because there are people in the forums and online that can't get on irc, so i give them the option of the other chat clients to get in contact for help
<LaserJock> hmm, most of my family doesn't even email
* LaserJock crawls back under his prehistoric rock
<nixternal> lol
<jsgotangco> one of my rather "interesting" friends is on AIM so
<trappist> most of my friends don't even know what irc is :/
<jsgotangco> that happens most of the time
<LaserJock> I hate to say it but pretty much my only friends are on IRC
<trappist> losers.  all the cool guys are on irc ALL DAY.
<jsgotangco> you'd be lucky if you still have friends in ICQ
<jsgotangco> or cursed
<trappist> I once knew a guy who used icq.
<LaserJock> who has time for friends, we're supposed to be working on Ubuntu
* LaserJock thinks maybe he needs to get out more
<jsgotangco> it must be a sad thing to be able to see your friends every 6 months only
<jsgotangco> lol
<LaserJock> probably not even that
<jsgotangco> or worse a year
<jsgotangco> or probably not at all after
<jsgotangco> lol
<LaserJock> well, I get to visit my family once a year
<LaserJock> or so
<LaserJock> but who's got time
<LaserJock> It's Ubuntu, work, eat, sleep, repeat
<LaserJock> or rather, Ubuntu, work, Ubuntu, eat, Ubuntu, sleep, repeat ;-)
<jsgotangco> hmm somethings missing
<nixternal> !classroom
<jsgotangco> where does the marital responsibilities fit in
<LaserJock> probably should have some more Ubuntu's in there
<nixternal> guess it don't work here ;)
<jsgotangco> oohh jeezz i can't believe i listed to this crap before
<jsgotangco> "I'm a six foot hot look all american man"
<LaserJock> jsgotangco: oh sure, every now and then I have to close the laptop and listen to here for a while
<LaserJock> ugggg
<jsgotangco> KISS Alive II
<jsgotangco> h
<jsgotangco> <LaserJock> jsgotangco: sorryaha
<jsgotangco> doh
<jsgotangco> haha
<jsgotangco> in a way its fun listening to old stuff you used to dig before
<LaserJock> jsgotangco: does it seem a lot lamer then you remember it being?
<LaserJock> jsgotangco: that always happens to me. I'm like "Oh, that song rocked. It was like my favorite" and then I listen to it and I think "Man, this song stinks"
<jsgotangco> well if you've been following music since high school, you'll notice songs back then were silly but nonetheless happier than today's rock bands
<LaserJock> jsgotangco: yeah, a lot more of jbailey's angst these days ;-)
<jsgotangco> like during the mid 80s, i'm pretty much a trash metal sort of guy
<jsgotangco> and i was barely in high school
<jsgotangco> but thank god i never found spandex cool even back then
<LaserJock> jsgotangco: haha, that would have been hilarious
<jsgotangco> hmm i didn't know BenC was DPL before
<crimsun> :)
<crimsun> there are a few interviews with him as DPL
<jsgotangco> well its like i just finished high school when he became DPL so
<jsgotangco> heh
<crimsun> there you go making me feel old again
<jsgotangco> lol
<jsgotangco> i just read the interview and i imagine him saying that while smoking a stick of marlboro red lol
<nixternal> jjesse must be a busy man lately ;)
<joachim-n> hi
<nixternal> hi there
<LaserJock> hi nixternal 
<nixternal> well hello mr. LaserJock
<LaserJock> nixternal: have you tried getting a list on lists.ubuntu.com?
<nixternal> lol...i just now emailed jdub about one for Chicago
<LaserJock> I've got ubuntu-science externally hosted because my general impression was that they didn't want to have too many "offical" lists running around
<nixternal> i wouldn't doubt it, but every other loco has one there, so that is why i went, plus it is listed on the loco page to get one through ubuntu ;)
<LaserJock> LoCos should certainly be ok, that's a part of being an "offical" LoCO
<LaserJock> or is that offically loco
<LaserJock> :-)
<nixternal> well. you would think anything "Ubuntu" would be ok
<nixternal> loco ;)
<nixternal> see now, i just add everyone of my guys into a list in kontact, so when i email i get a good 8" header ;)
<nixternal> and the replies are horrid
<LaserJock> hehe
<nixternal> if i don't get nothing this week, i will have to have it hosted externally i guess
<LaserJock> I keep seeing more and more US LoCos poping up, eventually there is bound to be one I can join :-)
<nixternal> im getting chi.ubuntu-us.com web hosting via Ubuntu now
<nixternal> create it ;)
<nixternal> i don't think you are busy enough
<LaserJock> bah, I don't have time for it.
<LaserJock> I just made my first LUG meeting last night, one step at a time dude ;-)
<nixternal> lol
<LaserJock> I finally listened to my buntudot.org interview yesterday, I sound really weird. I hate listening to a recording of my voice
<LaserJock> it sound so different
<nixternal> i agree with you
<nixternal> you do sound weird
<nixternal> ;)
<crimsun> you got noosed^H^Hinterviewed? nice.
<LaserJock> haha
<LaserJock> it was fun, I enjoyed it, but next time imbrandon needs to pick a topic, I can't think off the top of my head *and* sound half-way intelligent at the same time ;-)
<nixternal> haha i know the feeling
<crimsun> ah but that's what getting a doctoral degree teaches you to do
<nixternal> usually it is just imbrandon talking..you and i just go.. uh huh...ya,  well...ummm ummm ya...ohh..cool
<LaserJock> yeah, nothing like orals
<nixternal> lol
<nixternal> crimsun, one of these days, let me finish my masters first, then it is on to the doctorate
<nixternal> i have to hurry, as im getting older and i gotta finish it before my GI bills run out
<LaserJock> bah, skip the masters and go straight for the doctorate
<nixternal> no no..got my BS in CS ;)   and Im getting my MBA
<crimsun> that only works if you stay in the same discipline, generally
<nixternal> then either my Doctorate in either CS or EE
<nixternal> the MBA would be the onlything outside of my discipline
<LaserJock> crimsun: hehe, I have a B.A. in Environmental Science and am gitting my PhD in Physical Chemistry
<crimsun> that's essentially the same discipline
<LaserJock> yeah
<LaserJock> I had an emphasis in chemistry
<nixternal> wow
<nixternal> i couldn't take another Chem or EnvSci class if i had to
<LaserJock> hehe
<nixternal> i can't remember any of the EnvSci stuff either
<nixternal> zone of leaching
<nixternal> something with that
<nixternal> garbage dumps
<nixternal> haha
<LaserJock> blah blah save the earth blah blah :-)
<nixternal> lol
<nixternal> exactly
<nixternal> tree huggers
<nixternal> ;)
<nixternal> god's gonna save the earth by getting rid of us all
<crimsun> nuh uh, there are lots of interesting topics. for instance, an ex-gf is doing research into chlorides w/ charlie zender at UCI. coincidentially, charlie zender is a Ubuntu user.
<nixternal> he is gonna throw a dart at his calendar and pick a day to begin his version of "etchnic" cleansing
<nixternal> etchnic ey
* nixternal writes m-w.com and tells um to add it quickly
<LaserJock> crimsun: it is actually cool stuff, I wasn't intersted when i first started (it was the only chemistry related degree at my school) but I got into it as time went on
<nixternal> i got interested in the various systems, the hydrosomething or other, how it is in constant motion all around you, and you see it all the time, you just don't realise it
<nixternal> and water tables were interesting and what not
<LaserJock> crimsun: I did a study on nitrate level in groundwater for a senior research project, actually got to present our research to county commissioner's and make public policy recommendations
<nixternal> nice LaserJock
<LaserJock> it was pretty cool because my school had a good working relationship with many of the local and federal agencies
<crimsun> LaserJock: yeah, that's good stuff.
<LaserJock> so the Forest Service would get cheap labor and we got to do real research
<crimsun> I almost went chem for grad school but decided I really liked algorithm design more
<LaserJock> yeah, tbh I waver a lot between Chem and CS
<LaserJock> which is bad when you've been working for 8 years on something :-)
<crimsun> ultimately da vinci and feynman had it right. you have to be interested in everything.
<LaserJock> exactly
<nixternal> so true
<LaserJock> I've always admired the Renaissance scientists
<nixternal> i think that is why kids these days are becoming far more intelligent then the kids of yesterday
<nixternal> they get interested in far more activities and what not
<LaserJock> Pascal developed at least 2 areas of science and mathematics, wrote major pieces of philosophy, all before he was 30
<nixternal> i have a 14yo neighbor who hacks pretty darn well i might add
<nixternal> he is good with C, python, and others, and knows his networking stuff
<nixternal> he is always messing with my wireless stuff
<crimsun> now (re)introduce him to milton, shakespeare, blake, whitman, keats, roy, walcott, giovanni, and so on :)
<LaserJock> yes
<LaserJock> I worry that kids are focusing down too early
<LaserJock> sure they are wizards at whatever "thing" they do (or their parents push on them) but there is so much more to life
<LaserJock> not that I really should be talking ;-)
<nixternal> true, which is why there are more teen suicides these days then ever before...at least the dummies on tv think so...and i usually don't agree with the media on 99% of the things they say
<nixternal> ^^ not which is why, but why i think...
#ubuntu-doc 2006-07-15
<LaserJock> evening everybody
<CypherBIOS> LaserJock: evening :)
<mpt_> Afternoon
<Madpilot> evening
<LaserJock> are we going to have a meeting anytime soon?
<LaserJock> I'm kinda feel like we're sort of lacking direction a bit for edgy
<LaserJock> maybe it's because I've been busy with other work
<theCore> hi LaserJock
<LaserJock> hi theCore!
<LaserJock> how's it going?
<theCore> pretty good, you?
<LaserJock> same
<theCore> LaserJock: I didn't seen any commits lately for the Packaging Guide, did you stop working on it?
<LaserJock> theCore: I never really started yet for Edgy
<theCore> I wonder what I could do...
<LaserJock> write
<LaserJock> :-)
<theCore> :)
<LaserJock> theCore: got a few minutes? we could go over the outline
<theCore> LaserJock: of course
<LaserJock> theCore: ok, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuPackagingGuide
<LaserJock> theCore: what do you think of it at the momement?
<theCore> LaserJock: well, it pretty much what we have now
* nixternal loves the guid
<nixternal> e
<nixternal> im using it right now for some dh_make help
<LaserJock> theCore: the structure is a fair amount different
<LaserJock> nixternal: good, send feedback :-)
<nixternal> oh you know i will
<nixternal> that or a diff if needed
<LaserJock> theCore: I split it up into many more chapters
<theCore> LaserJock: yeah, I see that https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuPackagingGuide?action=diff&rev1=23&rev2=22
<nixternal> hmm..im starting to wonder where jjesse went..we need to get workin' on the SFW docs
<LaserJock> didn't he get a new job?
<theCore> LaserJock: it's neater that way
<crimsun> I think it's perhaps more streamlined to have "common mistakes" integrated into each section
<LaserJock> ah, good idea
<LaserJock> I kinda want to cover things when the come up
<LaserJock> do you think there is too much introductory material before you start actually working on a package? that was one complaint I got
<LaserJock> I wanted to add a little "rebuild from source package" example early on since that is a common, and easy (usually) thing to do
<theCore> crimsun: added
<crimsun> LaserJock: well, no, I didn't think there was too much introductory material.
<theCore> LaserJock: there's never enough introductory material
<theCore> ;)
<crimsun> LaserJock: on the other hand, something that would help immensely is a flowchart akin to what you find in O'Reilly texts where you say "if you're an experienced user but novice Debian packager, you'll find chapters X, Y, Z interesting immediately and want to skip chapters A, B, and C. If you're an inexperienced user, you'll want to dive right into chapter A. [..] "
<LaserJock> yeah
<LaserJock> that's kinda what I'm looking for
<LaserJock> there's really a fairly large range of experience I'd like to target here
<crimsun> you really can cover it all
<theCore> maybe we should explain why peoples should do packages
<crimsun> just make sure that first section really lays things (flow) out clearly
<crimsun> theCore: sure, I see that as something viable in the first "novice" chapter
<LaserJock> I think if we have : 1)totally new 2) more refresher/reference type 3) info for Debian people who just need to know about Ubuntu specifics
<crimsun> an experienced user, well, already knows why packages are important
<LaserJock> the other thing to keep in my is hopefully we will have an Ubuntu Developer's Reference in edgy
<LaserJock> s/my/mind/
<LaserJock> which I hope to sort of sell them as pair
<crimsun> more useful to the semi-experienced users, probably
<LaserJock> right
<LaserJock> so the PG guides you through the knowledge you need to create and deal with packages
<LaserJock> and the UDR provides the more specifc reference that Ubuntu developers need to get their job done
<LaserJock> but hopefully together they give a pretty decent documentation of what you need to become an Ubuntu developer
<LaserJock> theCore: are you presently editing the wiki page?
<crimsun> probably s/become an Ubuntu developer/develop apps using Ubuntu/g
<theCore> LaserJock: yes
<LaserJock> theCore: tell me when your done
<crimsun> something that will help is separating detailed explanations from the quick-n'-dirty
<LaserJock> yeah
<crimsun> (i.e., the ongoing ubuntuguide vs. wiki debate)
<LaserJock> I've wanted to do that but I haven't really figure out a good way of doing it
<crimsun> so in the chapters, detailed explanations are used, but there are appendices where no explanation is given for people who just want the rundown
<LaserJock> yeah, but that was my big complaint with the New Maintainer's Guide
<theCore> LaserJock: done
<LaserJock> all the helpful stuff was at the end
<crimsun> the bulk of the material is there already in the PG; this is mainly a workflow issue
<theCore> should we cover checkinstall?
<LaserJock> I'd rather cover rebuilding source than checkinstall
<crimsun> my gut says "no"
<crimsun> normally checkinstall is used for newer backports (backports) or non-existing ones, which is precisely the larger portion of the target audience
<LaserJock> I think we can make simple packaging easy enough that checkinstall wouldn't be worth the pain
<theCore> ok
<LaserJock> I've thought about it though
<crimsun> we should definitely cover how to backport using pbuilder and link to how to request an official backport
<LaserJock> but I'd just rather not go down that road
<LaserJock> yeah, good point
<crimsun> backporting will probably need to be one of the later chapters, since pbuilder will need to have been introduced and explained
<theCore> and, would it better to use dummy examples for the first examples, thus reducing the complexity of the control file, and then move on with some real world examples?
<LaserJock> yeah, I'm wondering about that
<LaserJock> hello turned out to be more complicated than I wanted
<LaserJock> we could build a working hello package without some of the complexity
<LaserJock> I didn't have time to do it for dapper
<crimsun> how 'bout using the gtk hello world example?
<LaserJock> how's that different?
<crimsun> that way people get a graphical doodah they can click
<LaserJock> ah
<crimsun> it's simple, and people can see it displayed
<crimsun> and it's also documented on gtk.org :)
<LaserJock> having a GUI would be cool
<LaserJock> I mean we have hello , but the packaging is a bit hard to go through all in one shot
<theCore> wouldn't raise the complexity of the package even higher?
<crimsun> it would, yes, but it's something that would be explained
<crimsun> and besides, we're talking about packaging for people who like guis
<crimsun> the gtk hello world example is already in the gtk doc
<crimsun> all we have to do is tell them how to package it
<theCore> hmm... could be interesting
<crimsun> that would also give us a chance to tell them about .desktop files, so they can execute the simple gtk app
<nixternal> hrm..crimsun my man...  if i want to update a package, say lyx for instance..i grab the new .tar.gz from their site, and apt-get source lyx from us...i use pbuilder, is it correct to copy over the /debian/* files and edit them from the ubuntu source?
<LaserJock> it would be cool
<crimsun> nixternal: uupdate
<crimsun> nixternal: don't blow away the previous debian/ infrastructure unless you know you need to
<nixternal> uupdate?
<crimsun> I'm pretty sure this is in the PG ...?
<nixternal> well...the pbuilder stuff is all about "packaging from scratch"..that is where i kind of got confused for a second
<crimsun> ah, it's not really covered in the current PG
<crimsun> it's basically three steps
<LaserJock> no
<crimsun> 1) apt-get source foo   [for the current package] 
<nixternal> and if you read about debhelper, it is almost like you should use it for what i want to do..but debhelper debianizes files 
<crimsun> 2) download the newer upstream tarball
<crimsun> 3) cd foo-currentversion && uupdate ../foo-newerversion.tar.gz
<crimsun> then follow the instructions that are displayed
<nixternal> cool..thank you sir
<crimsun> yeah, we'll definitely add that
<nixternal> i knew something wasn't 100% there...i have read this thing a few times now ;)
<nixternal> crimsun: should i at least create the /debian directory in the newer upstream dir?
<nixternal> or will uupdate do that for me
<crimsun> no
<crimsun> uupdate will do that
<nixternal> cool
<nixternal> thanks
<LaserJock> ok guys, reload the wiki page
<LaserJock> any missing vital topics?
<theCore> look good to me
<LaserJock> I'm thinking of adding a section in Bugs about sending patches upstream
<Burgundavia> nixternal: some work for you: move https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BridgingNetworkInterfaces
<Burgundavia> hey jsgotangco
<crimsun> LaserJock: looks good
<nixternal> hiya jsgotangco
<jsgotangco> hey
<nixternal> no problem Burgundavia
* jsgotangco just had lunch
<Burgundavia> nixternal: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/WirelessRouterHowto
<LaserJock> hi Burgundavia and jsgotangco 
<LaserJock> crimsun: ok cool, I'm going to clean it up rearrange the .xml to reflect the new outline and beg and plead on -motu and -devel for help :-)
<LaserJock> maybe I can get Moser to start a big thread about the security vunerabilities in the Packaging Guide
<LaserJock> oh, the other thing I want -motu and -devel advice on is the pbuilder and chroot sections
<LaserJock> I took them off the wiki, but then infinity (I think it was him) had issues with parts of the chroot guide
<LaserJock> and perhaps pbuilder could get revamped to be a bit clearer as well
* LaserJock think the room cleared when he said Hi
<jsgotangco> LaserJock: i guess you should go out more often
<nixternal> LaserJock: i +1 crimsun on doing that ;)
<nixternal> crimsun is the packaging god around town
<nixternal> for instance..i just did his uupdate thing he showed and it worked like a charm..i just don't know where to pick up now ;)
<LaserJock> jsgotangco: ok, with that I'll say goodnight while I have so time left this evening
<LaserJock> s/so/some/
<jsgotangco> lol
<LaserJock> cya guys
<nixternal> g'nite LaserJock
<nixternal> am i really seeing a wireless router howto on the ubuntu wiki?
<nixternal> should i drop the "Howto" from the title on h.u.c/c/?
<crimsun> you totally need more howtos
<crimsun> j/k
<nixternal> i was waiting for that one ;)
<nixternal> it is sad when you can detect sarcasm on irc
<Burgundavia> can I write the HowToHowToHowto?
<nixternal> how about https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuWirelessRouter
<nixternal> +1 burg
<nixternal> how about https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuWirelessRouter & i link it on https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuWirelessRouter
<nixternal> i think that would be the best thing to do here
<Burgundavia> we all trust your judgment, nixternal
<Burgundavia> (actaully, we are too lazy to do it ourselves)
<nixternal> whew...cuz i already did it ;)
<nixternal> done
<nixternal> is it possible to get the                "Redirected from page "XXXX"     -    Clear message        lines/text whatever, reduced in size?  
<nixternal> it might just be me, but i find it annoying at times as it pushes down a few lines
<mdke> everything is possible
<nixternal> of course, as long as mdke is around ;)
<nixternal> how are you doing this fine day, evening, morning ;)
<mdke> fine thanks, you?
<nixternal> kind of tired..but working hard at staying awake
<nixternal> working with hobbsee a little bit tonight on some packaging
<mdke> cool
<mdke> we certainly need a meeting soon
* nixternal agrees
<nixternal> im ready for some doc work big time
<mdke> i'll email about it
* mdke goes for breakfast
<nixternal> i emailed jjesse and phil bull??  on the switching from windows docs..hopefully we can start that soon...plus edgy docs
<nixternal> g'nite all
<nixternal> hiya jjesse
<jjesse> hiya nixternal
<nixternal> you been pretty busy lately i take it?
<jjesse> been on the road for work a lot
<nixternal> also got a guy on the Chicago team from berrien springs..he is just hanging out really...but interested in a Michigan team
<jjesse> cool, i know the detroit team is very very active 
<nixternal> hmm..didn't think about that..even though he is closer to chicago, maybe he should also look into detroit
<nixternal> i will email him the info
<nixternal> actually..berrien springs is in the middle
<jjesse> missed the log, but did you become a member at the meeting?
<nixternal> waiting on mako
<nixternal> it is up to him to confirm/deny
<jjesse> oh
<nixternal> im confident i will make it though..as he approved the Chicago Team
<nixternal> and everyone else approved me
<jjesse> cool
* jenda doesn't doubt it, really.
<crimsun> jenda: do you still need -marketing stuff mirrored?
<jenda> hey there crimsun :)
<jenda> Nothing ATM, really
<crimsun> ok, I was going to remove what's currently there unless you really needed it
<jenda> but there might be some in the future - I have about three people who I keep bugging therewith, and there's usually at least one online :)
<jenda> OK, lemme check
<jenda> could you link me?
<jenda> ah, it was the layout design
<mdke_> meh
<mdke_> jenda: you know full well now that hosting is available if necessary
<jenda> crimsun: nah, it's OK, you can take it down.
<crimsun> jenda: ok
<crimsun> mdke_: this was a stop-gap emergency thing iirc
<mdke_> crimsun: yeah I remember
<jenda> mdke_: I know bzr is, and i'm using it... and I know that I can host stuff on the wiki, which I do with some things. 
<jenda> mdke_: Did you have anything else in mind?
<mdke_> jenda: you were told that if the marketing team needs a server, it can use the docteam one.
<jenda> OK, mdke_, how would that work then? I'm sorry, but it seems I misuderstood something.
<jenda> crimsun: OK, thanks for that. it's been on the wiki for a while, I forgot to tell you, sorry.
<mdke_> jenda: if the marketing team does something that isn't suitable for mirroring on the wiki (which afaics it hasn't yet), it can setup a webserver (or other software) on the docteam server.
<crimsun> jenda: np.
<jenda> mdke_: I have 5 megabytes of files in the bzr repo, and it would be a lot of work to put it all on the wiki, and bzr isn't easily accessible for outsiders.
<jenda> It's html pages, svgs, xcfs, pngs and jpegs mostly, I think.
<mdke_> jenda: so what is it that you'd like to do with that?
<jenda> I'd like it to be accessible through a browser on the net, as a list of files and directories. No other special treatment really. If the URL could be marketing.ubuntu.com, it'd be great, but it's not necessary.
<mdke_> ok, that's fine, we can do that
<jenda> From the other side, I'd like either all active members of the marketig team to have write access (preferably through nautilus (ie. ssh, ftp is good)), or better, selected active people to have access. I'm a little worried to give access to over 40 people just like that.
<jenda> Might be wrong there, of course, because OTOH, there is no real damage to be done.
<mdke_> jenda: I think what you should do is use the version control system to control access
<jenda> Hmm
<jenda> ATM, the entire team has write access to bzr
<jenda> In fact, it would be best if the two were synced, really...
<jenda> but it's rather difficult to do both ways.
<mdke_> just one way...
<mdke_> so what you do is just work in bzr, then mirror it on the server so that anyone can see it
<jenda> Yes that's good enough
<jenda> In fact, it's perfect
<LaserJock> hi Burgundavia 
<Burgundavia> hey LaserJock
<Riddell> what's happened to the newsletter?
<LaserJock> hmm, mgalvin isn't on
<LaserJock> #6 is it supposed to be?
<crimsun> he did mention he wouldn't have much time or something
<Riddell> he missed last week and seems to be about to miss this week
<Riddell> there's material on there, wouldn't be hard for someone to pick it up
<Riddell> just reformatting and proofreading
<LaserJock> bah, we need than one person to be able to do these things so if a person has to duck out for a few weeks the ship doesn't go down ;-)
<Riddell> so... volunteers?
<LaserJock> mdke_: ping?
<LaserJock> Riddell: honestly, the best idea is to email ubuntu-doc
<Riddell> oh sodit, I'll just do it
<nixternal> are you following m e
<nixternal> Riddell: there was another person who stepped up, however i will look at my log to see who it was...and of course i said i would help get it completed
#ubuntu-doc 2006-07-16
<nixternal> [Tue Jul 11 2006]  [12:59:41]  <nixternal>	mdz and mgalvin, if you need help with it, i can lend a hand today after the cc meeting
<nixternal> it was mdz
<Riddell> guess that didn't happen :)
<nixternal> heh...is there a lot that still needs to get completed?
<nixternal> or is it ready for release?
<Riddell> I'm just about to release it
<nixternal> cool
<nixternal> when your done, and need me to update wiki at all..let me know
<Riddell> update with what?
<nixternal> i can get #7 started when you are done
<Riddell> groovy
<nixternal> hehe
<nixternal> well, move #6 up the the current position, and put #7 into the "next issue" position..thats what i meant there ;0
<Riddell> nixternal: ok sent, please clean up the wiki
* nixternal gets on it
<nixternal> thanks for releasing it !!!
<nixternal> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuWeeklyNewsletter       page updated
<nixternal> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuWeeklyNewsletter/Issue7    created
<Burgundavia> nixternal: you around?
<LaserJock> Burgundavia: do you have a couple minutes to look at a wiki page for me?
<Burgundavia> LaserJock: yep
<LaserJock> wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU
<LaserJock> we've been adding some stuff
<LaserJock> and I'd like your overall opinion  on structure/organization
<LaserJock> it seems like it could use some help to me
<Burgundavia> it can 
<Burgundavia> first impression: too much bold
<Burgundavia> however, you do clearly state what motu is
<Burgundavia> the list of useful links needs to be subdivided
<Burgundavia> maybe break out the "how do I become a motu" section
<nixternal> ya Burgundavia
<Burgundavia> nixternal: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/NvNetInstallationHowTo
<nixternal> heh, my brother called and says his "Windows" computer is broken 
<Burgundavia> nixternal: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/openChrome
<nixternal> go go go..keep going 
<Burgundavia> nixternal: did you tell him you have this great fix?
<nixternal> haha ya
<LaserJock> Burgundavia: so maybe less bold and more use of sectioning?
<Burgundavia> yes
<LaserJock> what about a TOC?
<Burgundavia> maybe talk about about the lifecycle of a package, and organize links around that
<LaserJock> interesting idea
<LaserJock> right now CategoryMOTU has 109 pages
<LaserJock> I'd like to condense that down a bit
<nixternal> jeesh
<nixternal> i was going to make a motu joke, but decided against, it, as i need help from some of them 
<LaserJock> ah, go ahead, we're good sports ;-)
<nixternal> done deal Burgundavia
<Burgundavia> nixternal: thanks
<LaserJock> Burgundavia: you can't move pages?
<nixternal> Burgundavia is way to busy to move them 
<Burgundavia> LaserJock: too lazy
<nixternal> lol
<nixternal> he can find them though 
<Burgundavia> I am currently researching why my potato plants have little holes in the leaves
<nixternal> type of potato?
<nixternal> the little holes could be caused by aphids
<nixternal> as the leafhopper which is common to the tator plants usually causing curling of the leaves or yellow spots
* nixternal took some horticulture classes w/in the last year 
<LaserJock> so it seems he's useful for more than just moving wiki pages
<nixternal> also, fleabeetles can create holes that looks like you shot the leaf with a shotgun
<nixternal> i told you LaserJock that i did some environmental science classes within the past year or 2
<nixternal> horticulture was some too
<LaserJock> cool
<nixternal> i got certified in the state of illinois to apply pesticides 
<nixternal> hahaha
<LaserJock> I avoided the biology end
<LaserJock> I like the chemistry/physics
<nixternal> biology was fun
<nixternal> heh, and i hated chem/phys
<nixternal> i shouldn't say hate, but it wasn't my cup of tea
<Burgundavia> looks like the holes are colorado potato beetle
<Burgundavia> http://www.drmcbug.com/images/pests/Colorado%20Potato%20Beetle/CPB-HarmBIG.jpg
<LaserJock> nixternal: well, people seem to usually love it or hate it
<Burgundavia> leaves looks like this
<nixternal> can you see white dust looking stuff on the leaves?
<Burgundavia> no
<nixternal> also, most beetles leave "poop" behind
<crimsun> I liked 'em both so much I decided to stay in school a year more
<Burgundavia> and there is nothing on the underside of any of the leaves
<LaserJock> crimsun: hehe
* Burgundavia renames the channel #ubuntu-gardening
<nixternal> haha
<LaserJock> yeah
<nixternal> i can give you the email of a professor that is a freakin' genius with this stuff..although he doesn't respond to mine at all 
<LaserJock> we should have a horticultural encyclopedia package
<Burgundavia> sweet, gardeningforgeeks is available
<Burgundavia> .com,.ca and .org, that is
<nixternal> gahaha
<nixternal> lets do it
<nixternal> as i have a fairly large pepper patch
<nixternal> when the mowers come through though, they tend to rob them blind
<LaserJock> we grow some nice sage brush here in NV ;-)
<nixternal> hehe
<Burgundavia> hmm, it appears I am stumped on this pest
<Burgundavia> there are just large holes in the leaves, but the undersides of the leaves are clear
<Burgundavia> something has been eating them
<nixternal> whoa
<nixternal> they are clear in color?
<nixternal> like the chlorophyll is gone?
<Burgundavia> no, just eaten
<Burgundavia> by clear, I mean there is no debris, eggs or anything similar
<nixternal> that isn't white flies then
<nixternal> it could be aphids or spider mites
<Burgundavia> wouldn't I see aphids? I didn't see any
<nixternal> both are very very hard to see with the eye
<nixternal> ya...actually aphids would be easier to see then a spider mite
<nixternal> thrips are good for green leaf distruction as well
<Burgundavia> nope, that isn't it
<Burgundavia> it most resembles colorado potato beetle, but I didn't see any egg layings
<nixternal> heh, you are reading good info if you looked for eggs..also look for poop...that will infer some sort of beetle or worm as well
<nixternal> none of the leaves have curled over have they?
<Burgundavia> nope, not that
<Burgundavia> the internet is a wonderful place to learn about these things, because you can look for images
<nixternal> hehe ya
<Burgundavia> it very clearly resembles this Search
<Burgundavia> http://www.gnomefiles.org/app.php?soft_id=1561
<Burgundavia> or not
<Burgundavia> http://www.drmcbug.com/images/pests/Colorado%20Potato%20Beetle/CPB-HarmBIG.jpg
<Burgundavia> that
<nixternal> lol
<Burgundavia> http://www.drmcbug.com/images/pests/Colorado%20Potato%20Beetle/BH03May01CPBeggsBIG.jpg <-- but I not seeing this
<Burgundavia> or this http://www.drmcbug.com/images/pests/Colorado%20Potato%20Beetle/BH-CPBegg5_26_01.jpg
<Burgundavia> hey Madpilot
<Madpilot> hi
<LaserJock> hi Madpilot 
<nixternal> Burgundavia: http://www.attra.org/images/coloradopotato/cpb_beetles.jpg
<nixternal> 
<Burgundavia> trust you to find the one of the beetle having sex
<nixternal> rofl
<Burgundavia> no, haven't seen any of them
<nixternal> everything on those beetles make it sound like they feed on the terminal portions..how ever the larvae eat everything
<nixternal> the reason you may not see the eggs, is because the issue is past that stage
<nixternal> there might actually be larvae doing the damage now
<nixternal> but then again..it may not be an insect that is paticular to potatoes as well
<nixternal> so that would be anything like grasshoppers, caterpillars, beetles, grubs, and bugs of that nature
<Burgundavia> yep
* Madpilot wonders how bugs got on-topic in -doc...
<Burgundavia> ok, this ted stevens "tube" thingy is pretty fun
<nixternal> lol
<nixternal> guess
<Burgundavia> Madpilot: I was talking about my potatoes and the bug that appears to be eating the leaves
<Madpilot> ah
<Madpilot> you're becoming terribly domesticated, Burgundavia 
* Burgundavia is still single
<Madpilot> unless you're going to be home-distilling vodka out of those potatoes, of course!
<Burgundavia> one cannot be domesticated and be single
<Burgundavia> bah, vodka
<mpt> mmmmmm, bugs
<nixternal> mmmm, tequila
<nixternal> cabo wabo tequila
* nixternal dreams
<Burgundavia> not warm enough to agave here
<nixternal> thats why i am moving to mexico
<nixternal> cabo here i come 
<nixternal> or aranjas where all the agave fields are
* nixternal gets some ice cream
<Burgundavia> http://frem.wordpress.com/files/2006/07/internet.JPG
<LaserJock> uggh, I want to move somewhere cooler
<LaserJock> Burgundavia: lol
<Burgundavia> cooler as in lower temp or cooler as in less sucky?
<LaserJock> both
<Burgundavia> ok, there are some good pithy comments in rebuttal to this whole ted stevens debate
<LaserJock> perhaps somewhere in Colorado
<LaserJock> ted stevens?
<Burgundavia> senator from alaska
<Burgundavia> his grand daughter bought him an ipod and he had a change of heart about fair use
<LaserJock> ha
<Burgundavia> http://www.zefrank.com/bulletin/showthread.php?t=9695 <-- read the last two comments
<crimsun> oh man, I remember that
<crimsun> TUBES
<crimsun> it's all tubes for your personal internets
<LaserJock> jeeze, you'd think his aides would keep him from sounding so dumb
<LaserJock> that's why they pay them the big bucks
<Burgundavia> bah, term limits
<Burgundavia> we need term limits
<Burgundavia> no more than 8 years
<mpt> Push them through the tubes faster?
<Burgundavia> heh
<mpt> That wouldn't change their composition...
<LaserJock> Burgundavia: +1
<Burgundavia> if you make them stay out of off for at least 8 years, we might have new blood
<mpt> ...just their age
<mpt> Exhibit A: the POTUS
<mpt> aaaaaanyway
<Burgundavia> POTUS is a vagarity
<Burgundavia> a blip
<LaserJock> I think the presidency is a bit different than the legislature, I can't really imagine a President being able to stay in office more than probably 4 terms
<LaserJock> but in the legislator you could do like 60 years
<LaserJock> that seems a bit long IMO
<Burgundavia> whats his name, the crazy 100 year old senator, thurman or something
<Burgundavia> he was in office 60 years
<LaserJock> yep
<mpt> Strom Thurmond
<nixternal> ol' strom
<nixternal> ya
<nixternal> hehe
<mpt> Burgundavia, have you come across a bugtracker for Gramps?
<mpt> (the program, I mean, not the senator)
<LaserJock> :-)
<mpt> I don't see one linked from the Web site
<Burgundavia> gramps appears to use sourceforge
<Burgundavia> http://sourceforge.net/tracker/?atid=385137&group_id=25770&func=browse
<Burgundavia> ok, more random stupidity http://www.cnn.com/2006/LAW/07/14/911.misuse.ap/index.html
<mpt> thanks Burgundavia 
<Burgundavia> no worries
<mpt> This will give me an excuse to remind myself how Sourceforge's bugtracker's UI works
* Burgundavia gets the knife because mpt will need to cut himself afterwards
<mpt> Burgundavia, I work on Launchpad
* mpt flaunts his finely criss-crossed arms
<crimsun> he's a glutton for punishment!
<crimsun> let's throw bugzilla back into the mix, shall we?
<Burgundavia> "I would rather have my fingers gnawed by rabid chimpmunks than use Launchpad some days"
<mpt> *sigh*
<mpt> Bugzilla has abused developers into being accustomed to horrid bugtrackers
<crimsun> quite unfortunately
<Burgundavia> gnome bugzilla has a few nice features
<LaserJock> hmm, I've never used bugzilla
<Burgundavia> bkor said he has been getting lost of pushback on getting those changes into upstream bugzilla
<LaserJock> oh I did file a bug once on gnome's bugzilla
<mpt> Burgundavia, really? b.g.o is relatively brilliant
<Burgundavia> mpt: no idea why. There was a great deal of sighing when we learned of that
<Burgundavia> mozilla as a whole seems to be very hostile to new ideas and people
<crimsun> I'm very bummed that my first exposure to bugzilla is via red hat's
<Burgundavia> have you seen that ridiculous rpm bug?
<crimsun> I haven't
<LaserJock> hehe, I thought you mean rpm ;-)
<LaserJock> meant
<LaserJock> hmm, so do you guys have any suggestions about the best way to say that I derived parts of the PG from Debian docs?
<crimsun> what's wrong with saying basically that?
<crimsun> Portions of the Ubuntu Packaging Guide are derived from the Debian New Maintainer's Guide and from the Debian Policy Manual.
<crimsun> I think that covers what you want, no?
<LaserJock> yes
<LaserJock> I'm wondering though if perhaps the GPL wants more from me
<crimsun> no
<LaserJock> tbh, I don't quite follow the GPL when it comes to derivatives
<crimsun> by using "derived from" and then stating explicitly from what, you've covered it.
<LaserJock> k
<Burgundavia> crimsun: this bug https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=119185
<LaserJock> OT: is irc.gnome.org the same as irc.gimp.org
<Ubugtu> bugzilla.redhat.com bug 119185 in rpm "if rpm exits in mid-transaction, the RPM data base can be left in an inconsistent state" [Normal,Closed: upstream]  
<mpt_> LaserJock, yes
<LaserJock> :(
<mpt_> "We have located 1 accounts"
<mpt_> Go Sourceforge, you illiterate, you
<crimsun> Burgundavia: that is the best soap opera I've read in a while
<Burgundavia> crimsun: utterly ridiculous, eh?
<Burgundavia> mpt_: I would love a search in lp for bugs that have changed state more than X number of times (to see state warring like that)
<Madpilot> Burgundavia, interesting bug report. Why do people with room-temp. IQs bother attempted bug triage, anyway?
<Burgundavia> Madpilot: no idea, but Jeff Johnson is rpm release manager
<Burgundavia> https://lists.dulug.duke.edu/pipermail/rpm-devel/2006-July/001185.html
<Madpilot> and an idiot, evidently
<Madpilot> oh Dog, more idiocy: "I have to agree with Jeff Johnson here. Linux is a system for experts only. If you make a mistake you deserve to have your database corrupted."...
<Madpilot> actually, scratch that. The post that came from is actually finely crafted sarcasm :)
<mpt_> heehee
<mpt_> I don't believe that duke.edu page, it has an invalid certificate
* mpt_ cracks himself up
<crimsun> I admit my sides hurt from laughing
<LaserJock> crap, there are 2 projects named sabayon
<LaserJock> and I managed to find the IRC channel of the one I didn't want
<LaserJock> I must have looked like an idiot
<LaserJock> haha
<Burgundavia> there is a distro called sabayon
<LaserJock> Burgundavia: yeah, that's who I was talking to about profile editing ;-)
<Burgundavia> ah
<Burgundavia> I am off, back later
<LaserJock> I tried to find the sabayon channel on irc.gnome.org
<LaserJock> but nobody was home
<nixternal> whee
<nixternal> SFW is gonna be funnnnnnn
<jjesse> yeah?
<nixternal> well hello there
<nixternal> im going through the svn now looking at it..i thought there was a little bit there
<nixternal> nothing but empty files and a ToC
<jjesse> there was at one time an old file that i deleted because it was pretty pathetic
<jjesse> in kubuntu/switching/
<nixternal> i was thinking...since there are 3 main version of MS Office people use, 2000, XP, and 2003 right now..that would make it a real pain as there are some signifigant differences there
<jjesse> well 2003 is just for servers
<nixternal> however, i was thinking about grabbing one of those "Office for Dummies" books as that covers the basics basics
<nixternal> office 2003 jjesse..not windows 
<jjesse> oh yeah
<nixternal> and take the information that comes in one of those books, and show the OOo or KO counterpart
<nixternal> however, i think KO is unnecessary, as it doesn't even have Office support really
<jjesse> should just focus on default installed applications
<nixternal> ya, since it is switching from windows the defaulte apps are good
<nixternal> that would also be good documentation at a later date, either via docbooks, or wiki..a switching from MS Office
<nixternal> it would be nice to have "Windows Basics | Office Basics | Internet Basics | Communications Basics (Email & Chat) | Multimedia Basics | Windows Admin"
<nixternal> take those and do the Ubuntu style of them
<jjesse> i think that's streaching things
<jjesse> making the SFW guide bigger then it needs to be
<nixternal> ok
<nixternal> is this going to entail stuff like "start menu, explorer, control panel, my documents, my computer, network neighborhood, maybe outlook express & internet explorer, stuff like that?
<jjesse> i think so
<jjesse> hmmm need to take dog out, i'll be back later i think
<nixternal> hehe k
<Riddell> jjesse: should I be looking at packaging the edgy docs next week?
<Riddell> mostly for the sake of fixing the packaging rather than having anything near final docs
<nixternal> he must of already grabbed the dog 
<nixternal> or the dog grabbed him
<mpt_> The sourceforge tracker is quite pleasant for reporting bugs
<robotgeek> has anybody else come aboard for Kubuntu documentation?
<Madpilot> robotgeek, don't think so. -doc has been pretty quiet lately
* nixternal is all Kubuntu docs !!! 
<nixternal> popeye the movie is coming on in 30 minutes..i think im crawling in bed and watchin' it 
<Madpilot> hi robitaille 
<robitaille> Hi Madpilot 
<nixternal> hiya jsgotangco
<robotgeek> hey nixternal 
<robotgeek> do you know what's status of Kubuntu docs? nixternal 
<nixternal> can't say that i do
<Laser_away> they're just there :-)
<robotgeek> okay
<nixternal> was hopin' jjesse was gonna fill us in, but i know he has been busy with business travel this week
<nixternal> if there is anything i can do to help, anything needs some quick editing or what not...i am more then willing to do so
<robotgeek> i need to migrate docs to edgy :)
<nixternal> fun stuff
<nixternal> what has to be done on this end in order to get them ready for you to migrate?
<robotgeek> got to see if anything is changed
<nixternal> ya, then jjesse is going to be the man for that one 
<robotgeek> yup. i probably need about a week or so before i can start working on it
<jsgotangco> nixternal: hey sorry was afk for a while, talking to my mom =)
<mdke_> Laser_away: pong
<mdke_> Riddell: speaking of kubuntu-docs packaging, did you upload the dapper-update?
<Riddell> mdke_: don't think so
<Riddell> mdke_: well, no.  what should I upload?
<mdke_> Riddell: I added lots of translation updates to the repo and iirc I updated the changelog too, should be ok just for you to give it a quick once over and upload
<mdke_> it's at https://docteam.ubuntu.com/repos/branches/dapper
<Riddell> mdke_: ok, there's an update of jjesse's chapter from the book that should go in too
* Riddell goes out to meeting
<mdke_> Riddell: looks like you uploaded it actually
<mdke_> yeah -11
<mdke_> sorry, should have checked
<mdke_> hmm
<mdke_> Riddell: actually, you didn't upload it, there is just an upload by you with the same version number (-11) that wasn't merged into our repo. My changes aren't in the package that is in the archive
* Starting logfile irclogs/ubuntu-doc.log
* Starting logfile irclogs/ubuntu-doc.log
* Starting logfile irclogs/ubuntu-doc.log
<nixternal> mornin'
<jsgotangco> hi
<nixternal> well hello there
<jsgotangco> what's up dude
<nixternal> not a whole lot..gonna be about 100 degrees today
<jsgotangco> brrrrrrrrrrrrr
<jsgotangco> :D
<jsgotangco> ahh the scent of summer..when its already typhoon season here
* jsgotangco is thinking of something to do now
<nixternal> hehe
<nixternal> me too
<jsgotangco> sundays can be really boring
<jsgotangco> im thinking of installing drupal for the loco site but i dunno the db password and the other loco contacts using it ain't online
<nixternal> ahh
<jsgotangco> we have this *HUGE ASS* server just sitting
<jsgotangco> Filesystem            Size  Used Avail Use% Mounted on
<jsgotangco> /dev/hda2             107G  8.6G   93G   9% /
<jsgotangco> AFAIK only 5 locoteams using it
<jsgotangco> heh
<nixternal> jeesh
<jsgotangco> hmm i will probably just play some videogames in my xbox
<nixternal> hehe
<robotgeek> nixternal: btw, i wont be able to attend this weeks meeting (again)
<nixternal> which meeting?
<robotgeek> heh, check email
<nixternal> oh..the 21st?
<nixternal> heh, there are a bunch of meetings for me this week
<robotgeek> i will be on a flight, and be really busy. the week after that, things should have settled down
<nixternal> fun stuff there
<robotgeek> there should not be too much stuff to do with the Desktop Guide this time, i guess
<nixternal> you would think the desktop guide would almost have to wait for for a release or 2, so you can actually document the changes to the desktop and what not
<nixternal> the kubuntu desktop guide shouldn't change much at all...as it will be kde 3.5.3 which doesn't have many differences, just improvements really
<robotgeek> yup. it will be adding some more polish, bugfixes etc
<nixternal> ya
<nixternal> i haven't looked..is there some doc bugs that need fixing...type of fixing i can do...i shall check
<robotgeek> nixternal: essentially looking through and seeing if we can improve a few things. 
<nixternal> ya, which there is always a way to improve
<nixternal> heh, i just realised that i am a wiki member, not a doc member...shows you how much i pay attention to the list of teams on the launchpad
<nixternal> 13,517 bugs to fix
<nixternal> lets go!!!
<nixternal> 13,516 
<robotgeek> nixternal: :)
<robotgeek> alrite, i gotta get back to work. later
<nixternal> hiya jjesse
<jjesse> hello
<nixternal> keepin' busy are ya?>
<jjesse> every day :)
<nixternal> hehe
<nixternal> people havin' been asking about kubuntu docs..and if they will be ready for mergin
<nixternal> g
<jjesse> ummm there have been no updates since dapper really so nothing to merge
<nixternal> that is what i kind of figured, but wasn't 100% positive
<nixternal> i have been going through the kubuntu documentation, looking for typo's, and stuff like that..haven't found anything out of the ordinary that would warrant changes
<jjesse> well the releasenotes have to be completly re-written which i'm working today on
<nixternal> if i find something, should i create a bug, and then possibly attempt to make a fix, create the diff, and post it to the bug or email it to ya?
<jjesse> after i finish reading the official copy of the book
<nixternal> ok
<nixternal> "official copy" of what book?   i want one 
<jjesse> the official ubuntu book
<nixternal> hehe
<jjesse> sending it to the printer on monday
<nixternal> i can't wait
<nixternal> add that to the list of books to buy 
<Newb> hey...can someone tell me how the hell to navigate the channels on this server?  I"ve never seen one this big...
<nixternal>  /j #channel
<nixternal> that will get you to join a channel
<Newb> ya...i know that...but...
<Newb> how do you find the right channell?
<Newb> lol
<Newb> theres so many
<Newb> thousands, looks like
<nixternal> what are you looking for?
<nixternal> help?
<Newb> php
<Newb> and lots of it
<nixternal> #php
<Newb> friggin sweet.  is there a CMS topic room as well?
<nixternal> #cms
* Newb dries his pants
<Newb> what's this room?
<nixternal> #ubuntu-doc
<Newb> lol i had gathered as much
<Newb> but
<nixternal> ubuntu documentation project
<nixternal> team channel
<Newb> looks like tech-jargon too specific for a newb
<Newb> ubuntu
<nixternal> ubuntu linux
<nixternal> http://www.ubuntu.com
<Newb> is that a new release?
* Newb checks it out
<nixternal> 2 years old
<nixternal> debian based
<nixternal> #1 on distro charts
<Newb> whoa
<nixternal> currently the most popular linux os out there
<nixternal> and by far my favorite of course 
<Newb> i thought red hat was?
<Newb> lol
<nixternal> hrm
<Newb> or maybe debian
<dsas> redhat probably is, amongst people that pay for it. :)
<Newb> good point
<nixternal> http://distrowatch.com/
<nixternal> we are free..free as in freedom, as well as free as in beer 
<Newb> damn.  how does devil-linux not get the shit sued out of them?  isn't it a violation of the GNU license to mimic debian so closely?
<Newb> well, you can't beat free beer
<Newb> so..
<Newb> if I buy ubuntu....I get...
<Newb> free beer?
<Newb> lmao
<nixternal> if you buy ubuntu, you got ripped off 
<Newb> oh.
<Newb> so
<nixternal> since they will ship you CD's for free
<Newb> where does the free beer kick in?
<nixternal> it is a "GNU/Linux" slogan from many years ago
<Newb> j/k; are you guys the developers?
<nixternal> the one thing Richard Stallman said that made since
<nixternal> some in here are developers, but this isn't a developers channel
* Newb imitates ricardo
<Newb> oh
<Newb> so
* dsas notes the dvd is for sale on amazon by canonical.
<Newb> you guys just talk about....the release?
<Newb> lke...
<nixternal> dsas, forgot about the dvd 
<Newb> 'this feature is cool'
<Newb> or
<Newb> 'this feature isn't cool, i hope they change that'
<nixternal> no, we write the documentation you see
<nixternal> https://help.ubuntu.com
<nixternal> as well as maintain the wiki's
<Newb> ohh
<Newb> neat.  so maybe you could help me find a good CMS?
<Newb> or uh
<nixternal> when you use "Help" and see all that text, this team was involved with it in some form
<Newb> #cms is what thats for
<Newb> right
<nixternal> yup
<Newb> sorry im used to a very. very. small server with 12 users total
<Newb> and two channels.  one i dont even have access to
* Newb feels like a cowboy in new york
<nixternal> heh, not here..loaded with channels
<nixternal> worldwide here
<Newb> worldwide??
<Newb> jesus
<nixternal> wb 
<Caterpillar_Memb> hello, can anyone tell me where to go when i've been improperly banned from a room?  I asked for help with my site and got banned.  The ops in #php are extremely ignorant.
<Caterpillar_Memb> is there a room for that? lol
<Caterpillar_Memb> was extremely inappropriate
<nixternal> you got banned for a reason im sure...however, this isn't a channel to ask for help in, unless of course you are having issues with documentation or website issues
<nixternal> thanks
<Caterpillar_Memb> well, he told me to stop spamming, and I was like...dude...I'm not spamming, I'm just asking for help with php...this is #php
<Caterpillar_Memb> but...i mean...where to i go for help?
<nixternal> help for what?
<Caterpillar_Memb> help with removing improper bans?
<Caterpillar_Memb> it says 'you can always message a staffer'
<nixternal> there is no place to go for a channel ban
<crimsun> sorry, but we don't have any control over #php
<nixternal> then message a staffer
<nixternal> and yes, what crimsun just said
<Caterpillar_Memb> ! that's what I'm trying to do!
<Caterpillar_Memb> lol
<Caterpillar_Memb> can you please help?
<Caterpillar_Memb> where do I go?
<Caterpillar_Memb> is there a channel?
<Caterpillar_Memb> staffer.
<crimsun> /stats p
* Caterpillar_Memb tries it
<crimsun> type that. There's at least one who's active.
<nixternal> this channel is logged for documentation purposes, and used to confer documentation topics, you are currently spamming this channel with stuff not related to Ubuntu documentation. If you decide to stay, keep the chatter on-topic, otherwise please feel free to check out #ubuntu-offtopic
<nixternal> thank you
<Caterpillar_Memb> oh, jesus man.  I was asking innocent questions, and you were being intentionally vague.  Please.  Thanks for the help, anyway, it's been very helpful.
<Laser_away> mdke_: I was just wondering about the newletter and where mgalvin was, but Riddell already took care of it
<nixternal> Laser_away: mgalvin has been very busy, so ya Riddell took care of it last night...mgalvin stated previously we could help get it out..so i started #7 last night
<Laser_away> nixternal: yeah, but my feeling is that these newsletters need to really be on time and consistent
<Laser_away> but I think everybody knows that
<nixternal> they should have been, but i am kind of at fault because i said i could help, and didn't with the last one
<Laser_away> well, that's where it seemsed to be a tad bit of a lack of communication there
<nixternal> ya there was, as i had to refer back to the log file in order to find that
<nixternal> i believe i offered to help him and mdz get it out
<nixternal> i will try to stay up to date with it, and i will mark it so i know not to forget about it..but i believe we need some other's to help contribute stories/news
<Laser_away> I would think better use of the mailing list would help
<Laser_away> it's not easy to coordinate these tasks on IRC
<nixternal> oh, i agree 100% with you on that
<LaserJock> nixternal: nixternal at CaboWabo ?
<nixternal> shhh
<nixternal> ;
<nixternal> i know what you are referrring to
<nixternal> dch -i grabs my hostfile info
<LaserJock> you can set DEBFULLNAME and DEBEMAIL in ~/.bashrc
* nixternal does that now
<nixternal> export DEBEMAIL=nixternal@gmail.com
<nixternal> wth is wrong with me
<nixternal> wrong winder
<LaserJock> I think you need ""s
<LaserJock> nixternal: what were you trying to do with lyx?
<nixternal> woohoo
<nixternal> who knows what i was trying to do...i was following instructions, and accidentally uploaded all 3 source.changes 
<nixternal> export DEBEMAIL=nixternal@gmail.com
<nixternal> source ~/.bashrc
<LaserJock> lol
<nixternal> that fixed it..thank you!!!
<LaserJock> no problemo
<LaserJock> Mr. CaboWabo
<nixternal> hehe
<nixternal> http://www.cabowabo.com & http://www.redrocker.com
<nixternal> 
#ubuntu-doc 2007-07-09
<Admiral_Chicago_> same here, waiting to get on my computer.manager in Feisty, perhaps the regular Ubuntu disc is right for you.  Either way, send th
<Admiral_Chicago_> grr, sorry about that
<tonyyarusso> Burgundavia: Do you have a copy of the TOC for TOUB, ed. 2, or a list of topics covered / how it differs from ed. 1 in terms of new content besides just updating relevance?
<Burgundavia> tonyyarusso: the biggest bit is a new Edubuntu chapter
<Burgundavia> other than that, mostly updates to the content
<tonyyarusso> ah
* tonyyarusso ponders whether to buy it anyway
<jjesse> the kubuntu section wa a complete re-write
<tonyyarusso> Maybe ed. 3 - 'tis good stuff, but no need to have duplicate content on my shelves really
<tonyyarusso> jjesse: Ah - Gnome/XFCE guy though
<mdke> morning all
#ubuntu-doc 2007-07-10
<Jordan_U> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/WifiDocs/Driver/bcm43xx/Feisty needs to be cleaned up / updated IMO but I am not great at writing documentation, would anyone be willing to help?
<Burgundavia> Jordan_U: do you have a bcm43xx card?
<Jordan_U> Burgundavia, No.
<Jordan_U> Burgundavia, But I did, and have helped many people who do
<Burgundavia> what about the doc needs to be fixed?
<Jordan_U> bcm43xx-fwcutter now offers to grab the correct firmware when you install it.
<Jordan_U> On top of that the driver that they suggest extracting is an old version IIRC and won't work with the new drivers in Feisty
<Jordan_U> Also, it is my opinion that the fwcutter instructions should be first since they can't do any harm if they don't work and will use native drivers if they do
<Jordan_U> Burgundavia, ^^
<Burgundavia> absolutely
<Jordan_U> I cleaned up https://help.ubuntu.com/community/WifiDocs/Driver/bcm43xx/Feisty if someone could look at it it would be nice
#ubuntu-doc 2007-07-12
<ubotu> New bug: #125325 in kubuntu-meta (main) "Live CD should provide information for Windows/Mac users after boot" [Wishlist,New]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/125325
<nixternal> svn commits suck!
<nixternal> I moved one file and deleted one folder, and 5 minutes later, it is still awaiting server response
<jjesse> that's why we should move to bzr :)
<nixternal> heh, right now bzr is quicker than svn
<jjesse> they updated the codebrowse section on launchpad as well which makes it even better to use :)
<jjesse> plus i always mess up my svn password ;(
<nixternal> ya, and we laughed at ya for that one :)
<nixternal> jjesse: what do you think about Kubuntu Release Notes again?
<nixternal> I am going to do them
<jjesse> ok
<nixternal> the reason we stopped is because the Ubiquity Slideshow was supposed to take care of it, but they haven't gotten to far yet with that
<jjesse> yeah then we should definetly do release notes
<nixternal> there are no release notes in Feisty because we were supposed to have the slideshow..jeesh
<nixternal> I will get them recreated then
<jjesse> the same notes will be the announcment that is on the wiki page etc
<jjesse> is all i care about
<nixternal> I always wanted to do that anyways
<Admiral_Chicago> yea i'm looking forward to release notes...
<Admiral_Chicago> don't mess it up... /me shakes fist
<jjesse> Admiral_Chicago: don't know if nixternal told you or not but my chicago gig got cancled
<nixternal> Man, we have 2 months before our freeze
<Admiral_Chicago> jjesse: no nixternal didn't tell me because he's a player hater
<jjesse> that jerk
<Admiral_Chicago> thats not cool
<jjesse> !nixternal
<ubotu> Oh no!  The pointy-clicky Vista lover has arrived!  He's rumoured to be giving out free money, too!
<nixternal> !jjesse
<ubotu> Sorry, I don't know anything about jjesse - try searching on http://bots.ubuntulinux.nl/factoids.cgi
<Admiral_Chicago> shh, don't call him a jerk or people will remember that...
<jjesse> :)
<Admiral_Chicago> :)
<Admiral_Chicago> okay
<Admiral_Chicago> I seriously have to run and finish packing before heading out the door.
<nixternal> 19:24:56 [     ubotu]  Sorry, I don't know anything about jjesse - try searching on http://bots.ubuntulinux.nl/hemroids.cgi
<nixternal> ouch!
<jjesse> doh
<nixternal> hehe
<nixternal> I am going to recreate the help structure around Konqueror and not KHelpCenter, so making it look good is #1
<jjesse> ok that sounds fun :)
<nixternal> I had that one really nice layout, but I can't remember what I did with it :)
<nixternal> 7 minutes for my svn commit!
<nixternal> that rocks
<mdke> morning all
<mdke> nixternal: I think the delay in the svn commit is related (as bhuvan said) to the hook we use that is supposed to send the commit messages to the channel
<mdke> nixternal: I've asked the sysadmins to take a look, but unfortunately I almost never get a reply to my tickets with the sysadmins
<bhuvan> ok mdke!
<mdke> hiya bhuvan
<bhuvan> hey
<mdke> morning Gwaihir
<Gwaihir> hi mdke!
<mdke> :)
<nixternal> rock on mdke  :)
<Gwaihir> damn IRC program!
* nixternal just finished writing some ungodly and very hideous java code
<mdke> nixternal: what about that meeting? Shall we have one?
<mdke> the docteam needs a bit of a revival in this release cycle
<nixternal> I think we shall...now that you are back of course :)
<nixternal> jjesse_ is already working on stuff
<nixternal> I have some new stuff planned since the Ubiquity slideshow is nothing more than vaporware (for 2 release cycles)
<nixternal> Admiral_Chicago: what is the status of Xubuntu documentation?
* nixternal beds
<nixternal> g'nite
<sits> hi
<sits> installing the binary drivers isn't bad but if you are doing so you need to be aware of the consequences
<sits> and of the gotchas when you attempt to install
<mdke> sits: it sounds to me like both solutions can be documented, but with appropriate caveats. having separate pages sounds perfectly sensible
<sits> the NVIDIA forum on nvnews is full of people doing manual installations but getting conflicts from the Ubuntu drivers
<mdke> It's even more important they have the relevant warnings then
<sits> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/NvidiaManual was an attempt to document the benefits and drawbacks
<mdke> ok, I have his email address if you want to mail him
<sits> and give hints to prevent people getting into that situation and links to launchpad bugs that were relevent
<sits> that would be handy
<mdke> I've msged it to you
<mdke> for now, feel free to revert the changes which you disagree with
<mdke> if the problem escalates, we can mediate
<sits> I'm not reverting anything until after I've talked to him
<mdke> ok
<sits> mdke: thanks for the email address
<mdke> np
<mdke> hi there glencore, nice nick
<glencore> Thanks :)
<mdke> named after the large grain traders?
<glencore> No no
<glencore> My friends gave it me as a nickname
<glencore> my real name is Glen
<mdke> shame
<glencore> ^^
<mdke> anyway, that's how I'll remember you
<glencore> :)
<glencore> As you please
<glencore> whats your name about?
<mdke> my initials
<glencore> ah, nice and simple :)
<mdke> :)
#ubuntu-doc 2007-07-13
<nixternal> nnonix: you need to get a hold of your connection...you are join/part spamming the channel
<jjesse> evening
<nixternal> jeesh
<jjesse> jeesh what?
<nixternal> nnonix and his join/part connection issues has spammed the channel now for a few hours
<jjesse> d'oh
<nixternal> either he needs to realize it, unless he is sleeping, or he needs a banforward done
<Flannel> it's only been five hours ;)
<nixternal> 2 minutes is enough for me to ban you, but I don't have ops in here
<jjesse> :)
<nixternal> I will see if he is in a bigger channel so I can get my ban fix ;p
<nixternal> nnonix: you by chance my cousin brad?
<nixternal> haha
<jjesse> he's on #ubuntu-devel, and #ubuntu-offtopic
<jjesse> have you taken LPI-C nixternal?
<nixternal> don' thave ops in either of those channels
<nixternal> jjesse: nope
<jjesse> hmm getting started restudying for it
<nixternal> I have a great book for the test though
<jjesse> which book?
<nixternal> I helped a couple of people study for it and they both did a good job
<jjesse> i'm using the sybex lpic-1 study guide
<nixternal> I believe it is LPIC in a Nutshell, it is an O'Reilly book
<nixternal> I have never been a Sybex fan
<nixternal> who does the Exam Crunch books?
<jjesse> really?  i've only used sybex for my MS tests and the linux+
<jjesse> also a+ and a couple of other tests
<nixternal> hrmm, it has been a really long time since I did the Linux+ exam
<jjesse> me 2
<jjesse> 3 years?
<nixternal> I was thinking of doing the LPI exams and going for the Ubuntu one
<nixternal> 7+
<jjesse> that's my goal
<nixternal> I did the Linux+ exam when it first came out I believe
<jjesse> wow
<nixternal> 2000/2001 with AT&T...we were required to get Linux+, RHCE, Solaris 2.6, 2.7, and 8, as well as HP-UX...and since they were paying, well I took them up on that offer :)
<jjesse> i remember you telling me that
<nixternal> the Sun courses were the best though...if you ever get a chance to take one, I highly recommend it
<nixternal> I don't think they had the LPI exams then
<jjesse> don't think i would ever have much use for a sun test
<nixternal> ya, but all of the cool stuff you get
<nixternal> I have a Sun Microsystems leather jacket :)
<nixternal> but I got that from working there
<nixternal> I didn't take enough classes in order to get the jacket
<jjesse> bummer on the free one :)
<nixternal> the Sun Java course are great as well, but cost an assload of money
<nixternal> grr
<nixternal> this irssi theme is hard to see whose text is whose...the light gray and the white are very close
<Flannel> nixternal: so, pick a different theme
<nixternal> I am using putty
<nixternal> sorry, forgot to add that
<nixternal> in putty it looks horrid, but it is beautiful in Yakuake/Konsole
<jjesse> looks like the hotel i'm staying in is getting pretty full
<jjesse> people are actually using the pool and hottub
<nixternal> jjesse: you aren't down there partying with them?
<jjesse> they are all underage
<nixternal> oh, now that sucks
<jjesse> like very underage
<nixternal> I love hanging out at the hotel bar though
<ryanakca> nixternal: d'you know if we still need the gpg-agent + kmail howto? maybe submit it to KDE if Kubuntu doesn't need it?
<j1mc> I think nnonix had this same problem yesterday...
<j1mc> weird
#ubuntu-doc 2007-07-14
<j1mc> hi all... in the about-ubuntu section, should that remain unmodified for all versions of ubuntu?
<j1mc> e.g., should it not say "kubuntu" for kubuntu, and just use ubuntu instead.
<j1mc> nnonix: what's up w/ your connectoin?
<j1mc> s/connectoin/connection
<j1mc> ok, lurkers... :)  pls get back to me at your leisure.  :)
<Liz> its been like that since the day before yesterday
<Liz> and whats it say in the kubuntu about ubuntu section?
<j1mc> thanks, Liz.  Kubuntu is kubuntu-specific.  I'll proceed with making ours specific to Xubuntu.
<Liz> to anyone, is there an option to switch between desktop managers now? ie. if i install xubuntu, is there an option to switch between xubuntu and gnome?
<j1mc> Liz, yes, you'd just select an xfce session when logging in at gdm.
<j1mc> if you install the xubuntu-desktop metapackage on top of your ubuntu installation, you'd have both sets of applications, though.  (e.g., both gedit and mousepad, two basic text editors)
<Liz> cool. installing now then
<Liz> im not fussed with that
<j1mc> :)
<Liz> i use gedit the most anyway
<Liz> ive never used mousepad, but would be nice to have a play with that one too
<Liz> restart of x
<Liz> ooh..pretty
<j1mc> i like xfce, too.  it is a bit more lightweight than kde or gnome
<j1mc> a bit less functionality, though
<Liz> its just a tad cleaner i guess to look at
<Liz> but everything can be customized normally
<Liz> cant it?
<Liz> ive never used xcfe before
<j1mc> customized normally?
<j1mc> it is freedesktop.org compliant, if that's what you mean.
<Liz> i meant customized, normally. its not too bad. i think ill put kde on my sons machine.
<Liz> does enlightment work well on ubuntu?
* Liz goes off to look in forums
<Liz> takes fiddling,b ut can work
<Liz> i see what you mean about functionality
<Liz> ok brb
<mdke> nnonix: can you quit the channel until your connection is fixed please?
<mdke> mpt: interesting, I'd like to hear more about your distributed version control idea. would it be possible for us to maintain a tree with Ubuntu's changes and keep merging any Gnome upstream changes that weren't incompatible with that?
<mdke> mpt: if so we could at least try an import of the Gnome docs to bzr and see if it works
<jjesse> would we then switch to bzr from svn?
<mdke> jjesse: if we were going to try using a distributed version control system for a Gnome branch, it would make sense to use bzr for that branch, certainly
<mdke> switching the rest of the repo to bzr is a separate question, I think
<jjesse> cause i would love to move towards bzr in the ubuntu-docs section of things
<mdke> yes, I know you would
<mdke> but that's just cause of your preference for remembering your ssh password over your svn password
<mdke> :)
<jjesse> :)
<jjesse> ok you caught me
<jjesse> acutally i'm enjoying bzr a lot
<mdke> if we move, we should move for the right reasons
<mdke> when we arrange the next meeting, we'll talk about it. Matthew Revell is going to come along with one of his bzr cronies to help us discuss it
<jjesse> oh cool, i'll have to make arragnements to come
<jjesse> i'm defintely interested
<jjesse> my biggest question is what other ubuntu teams/projects use svn
<mdke> how do you mean?
<jjesse> are we the only project that doesn't use bzr to manage code/packages to upload into ubuntu?
<mdke> I don't really know what you are getting at
<jjesse> let me rephrase it: it seems like most packages that are uploaded into ubuntu are managed through bzr is that a correct thought or am i wrong?
<jjesse> or tottaly thinking wrong?
<mdke> some are. Most aren't, afaik
<mdke> but I think there are plans to have the whole archive managed in bzr, I don't know much about it
<jjesse> i know there is talk to upload kde into bzr into launchpad or something like that
#ubuntu-doc 2007-07-15
<mpt> mdke, yes. It wouldn't be a panacea: the difficulty of merging updates would be proportional to how different the branches were to begin with. But it would be much easier than re-applying Ubuntu patches after every gnome-docs update.
<mpt> We could start doing this even without the GDP doing anything, by getting Launchpad to produce and maintain a Bazaar mirror of the GDP's SVN repository.
<mpt> Though that wouldn't solve the licensing problem.
<mdke> mpt: well, the licensing problem is best ignored I think - we'd just make any of our changes under the same license as the original, no?
<mdke> mpt: but yeah, let's give it a try by getting Launchpad to do such an import. I'd like to know more about how easy/difficult it is to merge/reject updates
<mdke> mpt: there is something here already - https://code.launchpad.net/gnome2-user-docs/ - although it really should be called gnome-user-docs and the code hasn't been updated for about a year
<mpt> mdke, there's no problem with making our changes under the same license, but per the FDL (like any of the CC BY licenses), each file would accumulate a list of all the people who have ever contributed to it
<mpt> which would bloat them over time
<mpt> cd. the comments in <http://diveintomark.org/archives/2007/03/05/cc-dogs>
<mpt> cf., rather
<mpt> Also, the current position of the GDP is apparently that by using centralized version control, they are editing the same document, and therefore don't need to change its title with every act of copying/distribution
<mpt> Using distributed version control, that wouldn't even pretend to be true
<mpt> because everyone who was worth merging from would have their own variation.
<mdke> mpt: hmm. Are you saying we wouldn't be able to maintain a branch with our own changes (including attribution) to the gnome docs?
<mpt> mdke, I am not a lawyer, but from my reading of the license, we wouldn't be able to do that practically with the current Gnome docs
<mpt> because, for example, we'd be required to retitle every work we modified
<mpt> "You may copy and distribute a Modified Version of the Document ... provided that you ... Use ... a title distinct from that of the Document, and from those of previous versions"
<mpt> "You may use the same title as a previous version if the original publisher of that version gives permission."
<mpt> "List on the Title Page, as authors, one or more persons or entities responsible for authorship of the modifications in the Modified Version, together with at least five of the principal authors of the Document (all of its principal authors, if it has fewer than five), unless they release you from this requirement."
<mpt> "Add an appropriate copyright notice for your modifications adjacent to the other copyright notices."
<mpt> etc
<mpt> all cruft that users shouldn't have to see
<mdke> mpt: oh, expletive
<mdke> mpt: although, I suppose that since we'll just be modifying the user guide, we could call it the "Ubuntu User Guide"
<mpt> A guide to the care and feeding of Ubuntu users? :-)
<mdke> mpt: well, given the way the guide is presented in our help system, they wouldn't see the title much anyway, and it would just be s/Gnome/Ubuntu
<mdke> or we can just think of another name
<mpt> yeah
<mpt> and for our version we could say "any modified version is allowed to use the same title"
<mdke> mpt: right
<mdke> mpt: so do you know how to request a vcs import?
<mpt> not in detail
<mpt> but it's described on Launchpad
<mdke> i didn't see it immediately
<mpt> https://help.launchpad.net/VcsImports
<mdke> mpt: thanks. Ok I've requested one for https://launchpad.net/gnome-user-docs/trunk
<fidusz> hi everyone
<jjesse> hello fidusz
<fidusz> I'd like to improve the docs on the HowToMD5SUM pages + UbuntuHashes more useful for Linux users
<jjesse> ok
<fidusz> I1ve jsut noticed when hunmaat put the howtomd5sum on the ubuntu.hu docs that on the official ubuntu docs you suggest the users to compare the hashes _visually_ :O
<fidusz> although the is the -c parameter fo md5sum
<jjesse> and it should be done differently? then edit it to match
<fidusz> md5sum -c ubuntu-6.10-desktop-i386.iso
<fidusz> all we would need to have the hashes downloadable as a file from the site
<fidusz> ot just link this: http://releases.ubuntu.com/7.04/MD5SUMS
<fidusz> 1) cd download_director
<fidusz> 2) wget http://releases.ubuntu.com/7.04/MD5SUMS
<fidusz> 3) md5sum -c ubuntu-7.04-desktop-i386.i
<fidusz> sorry: 3) md5sum -c ubuntu-7.04-desktop-i386.iso
<fidusz> thats it
<fidusz> 1) cd download_directory
<fidusz> jjesse: I think this is easier for the users
<fidusz> It would be useful to change it on the dosc site: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/HowToMD5SUM
<jjesse> fidusz: i think all you to do is creae an account or sign in or something  to edit ,so go ahead and make the changes
* jjesse doesn't remember
<fidusz> jjesse: sorry, I didn't know how restricted is the docs site...
<fidusz> I'll try it
<jjesse> fidusz: it's been awhile since i've edited somehting on help.ubuntu.com
<fidusz> Oh, I see, it already uses launchpad accounts. much easyer
<fidusz> easier
<jjesse> yueah i didn't remember how it worked
<fidusz> ok, changed the text: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/HowToMD5SUM#preview
<jjesse> looks good to me
<fidusz> jjesse: thanx!
<jjesse> mp
<jjesse> np
<fidusz> I updated the ubuntu.hu version too
<jjesse> awesome
#ubuntu-doc 2008-07-07
<eyalev> Hello, does someone knows where can I change the translation of the page http://start.ubuntu.com/8.04/ ?
<eyalev> I thought of sending an email about this to ubuntu-doc but I figured it might be helpful to check here first.
<charlie-tca> What do you mean, change it on your system?
<eyalev> I'm on the Hebrew locale, and when I open this page it has a LOT of mistakes
<eyalev> For example: it says that the current version is Dapper.
<charlie-tca> Oh, maybe you need to submit a bug report about it, then, so it can be fixed.
<eyalev> There is a bug report: https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ubuntu-docs/+bug/220780
<eyalev> How do I know if someone is working on it?
<charlie-tca> I'm checking now
<eyalev> thanks
<charlie-tca> I don't show it inwork yet, I will work on it and get the status changed.
<eyalev> Thanks a lot!
<charlie-tca> Glad to be able to help a little.
<intellectronica> charlie-tca: what does it normally take to get this done? i think either eyalev or myself can handle the translation itself in this or future cases, but i wasn't able to find any info on how to update it. is there a branch where these files are?
#ubuntu-doc 2008-07-09
<seisen> is there a bzr repository for the kubuntu-docs?
#ubuntu-doc 2008-07-10
<Syntux> Hello, anyone from Israeli team or know how to handle Hebrew with MoinMoin wiki?
#ubuntu-doc 2008-07-11
<kgoetz> hi all. is there any work on traffic control doco? if there is i'll grab a checkout and look
#ubuntu-doc 2008-07-12
<Atamira> reboot brb
<technomensch> anyone in here?
<technomensch> :::paying attention, that is::::
<technomensch> in MediaWiki, there is a SpecialPages that lets you see "what links here" to a specific page.  Does this wiki have the same feature somewhere?
<charlie-tca> I don't know if this is what you are looking for, but clicking the page title does a search for related pages
<technomensch> that helps a little, thanks
<charlie-tca> glad to help
<technomensch> are you on the wikiteam, or a documentor?
<technomensch> are there any members of the Wiki Team currently in the Chat room??
 * cody-somerville raises his hand.
<technomensch> hi cody
#ubuntu-doc 2008-07-13
<bhuvan> i've a question in ubuntu-doc bzr.
<bhuvan> when i attempt to checkout ubuntu-intrepid branch, using checkout command:  bzr checkout http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-doc/ubuntu-intrepid; i'm getting this error
<bhuvan> bzr: ERROR: Not a branch: "https://code.launchpad.net/".
<bhuvan> have a clue why it is happening?
<cody-somerville> that doesn't look like a valid path to a branch on launchpad to me bhuvan
<cody-somerville> It is always
<cody-somerville>  /~OWNER/PROJECT/BRANCH
<technomensch> wow
<technomensch> lot of people in here tonight
<crimsun> bhuvan: bzr branch lp:ubuntu-doc
<bhuvan> i did check out using this command: bzr checkout bzr+ssh://bazaar.launchpad.net/%7Eubuntu-core-doc/ubuntu-doc/ubuntu-intrepid/
<bhuvan> cody-somerville/crimsun: thank you
<technomensch> there a wiki team member around?
#ubuntu-doc 2009-07-06
<billybigrig> anyone here willing to help a guy out? i'm trying to pretty up the Grub2 wiki page i started
<billybigrig> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Grub2
<billybigrig> any tips?
#ubuntu-doc 2009-07-07
<drs305> billybigrig: Still here?
<billybigrig> cc yeah
<billybigrig> you good with moin moin formmating?
<drs305> Is that the wiki?
<billybigrig> yeah, it uses the moin moin engine
<drs305> I'm learning, slowly.
<drs305> I was playing with the grub.cfg display. It's too big. I tried breaking it up on my practice page:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/drs305/Sandbox
<drs305> billybigrig: Have you seen the editing help pages for ubuntu wiki?
<drs305> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/HelpOnEditing
<evanrmurphy> Hi all, andrew_sayers and I have been working a bit on documentation in #ubuntu-signpost.
<evanrmurphy> Help documentation specifically. Thought the Documentation Team would be interested and could lend us some insight/help.
<Flannel> andrew_sayers: You mind reverting your FirefoxNewVersion and then incorporating the 3.5 specific stuff into the older page?
<andrew_sayers> Flannel: You mean the one with all the terminal commands?  That version kinda worried me, because that page is linked from Google and ubuntuforums.org now, so beginners will try to follow it.
<Flannel> andrew_sayers: The page will all the info, yeah.  Just add the FF3.5 stuff to the top (and now that it's final, we don't even have to mention other stuff--just use the repos)
<Flannel> andrew_sayers: With proper notification stuff, no one will follow the old stuff unless they have to (old version of Ubuntu that mozillateam doesn't want to support, etc)
<andrew_sayers> Flannel: How about putting that stuff in FirefoxNewVersion/Compile, and linking it from a "See Also" section at the bottom?
<Flannel> There's instructions on that page that have nothing to do with compiling.
<Flannel> The current page works for *one* version of Ubuntu, and is specific to *one* version of firefox, it's not a good thing.
<andrew_sayers> Sorry, /Advanced
<andrew_sayers> The "daily" builds work for many versions, FWIW.
<Flannel> I don't see anything wrong with giving people that other information readily.  Put the relevant stuff on top, and put adequate warnings around the non-recommended stuff.  Most people aren't idiots, and those who are idiots are lazy, so they won't read below the fold.
<Flannel> s/non-recommended/non-ideal/
<Flannel> The current page doesn't talk about how to set a new/manual/whatever firefox to be the default browser without making dpkg unhappy, for instance.
<Flannel> It's the loss of information like that, plus the fact that when firefox 4.2 comes out and people want to try it, we'll have to then change all our links to point to the /Advanced page
<Flannel> so they can know how to safely extract the pre-compiled firefox and set it up, tec.
<Flannel> etc that is.
<andrew_sayers> I'm reading through the old version, and it's kinda specific to FF 3.0.
<Flannel> the specific urls and stuff may be, yes,
<andrew_sayers> We'd have to write a whole new version-neutral bit.
<Flannel> Before that, it was specific to 2... or whatever
<Flannel> Even with doing manual installs of firefox, there's a safer way of doing it, and we want to make sure the safer methods are easy to find
<andrew_sayers> How many people want to run Hardy with FF 3.5 anyway?  Surely if you wanted the latest and greatest, you'd install Jaunty?
<Flannel> We've already had three people ask about it in #ubuntu inthe past week that I can remember
<andrew_sayers> And you'd rather not point them to the daily builds?
<Flannel> er... daily builds aren't safe at all.
<Flannel> I'd rather give them all the information, and have them choose what path is best for them
<andrew_sayers> Hang on, I'll ask in #ubuntu-mozillateam in case they have any recommendations.
<Flannel> If they're bent on using a binary from mozilla, I'd rather them get the information on how to do that safely with Ubuntu, rather than finding information thats some other distro specific, and then breaking things
<Flannel> they *will* find that information, we don't need to pull wool over anyones eyes.
<andrew_sayers> I only disagree with that if the Mozilla team have specific recommendations.  Otherwise my only point is that hiding it behind a click is safer.
<Flannel> I don't see how hiding it behind a click is safer.  They're getting those same instructions from a dozen of other websites (including mozilla itself).  Making it *easy* to find the safe way to use mozilla binaries is the only thing we can do to minimize problems
<andrew_sayers> If they're that intent, a single click won't stop them.  But it will stop people that are just browsing.
<Flannel> No one who's just browsing will think "oh, lets do this the difficult and non-recommend way when an easier way is right there!"
<Flannel> The wiki has the capability to include big warning icons, etc.  We've done it on other pages, I don't see why this shouldn't be done the same way
<andrew_sayers> What's the harm in putting it behind a click?
<Flannel> People will be less likely to see it
<Flannel> And there are more groups of people who will benefit from seeing it than those who will benefit from not seeing it (of the people who would go to that page)
<andrew_sayers> Just got word back from #ubuntu-mozillateam.  Recommendation is to use the Mozilla security PPA.
#ubuntu-doc 2009-07-08
<andrew_sayers> Actually, hang on.  Seems it's more complicated than that :)
<andrew_sayers> Flannel: You might want to join #ubuntu-mozillateam, it's looking more complicated than we thought.
<andrew_sayers> Flannel: I've updated the page per the team's instructions.  In short, wait a few days for them to release FF 3.5 for Hardy, do not install from mozilla.org.
<Flannel> andrew_sayers: And intrepid?
<andrew_sayers> I would assume so - I'll check to be sure.
<andrew_sayers> Flannel: yes to Intrepid.  Is Ubuntuzilla still maintained, by the way?
<bozo9> I'm new to the forum today and I created a username that doesn't meet the standard or is in use.  I need help changing this username.
<bozo0> Hello; I'm new to the forum, I created a username that is in use or not meeting the standards.  Can you help me change the username ?
<jpds> wut?
#ubuntu-doc 2009-07-09
<slytherin> Can anyone help me with a particular question in docbook? This is not ubuntu related.
<andrew_sayers> Flannel: I've now added a page about installing Mozilla builds (FirefoxNewVersion/MozillaBuilds).  I put it on a separate page because Intrepid/Hardy packages are expected.  Give me a shout if you spot anything.
<Kangarooo> here is problem.. old info .. https://help.ubuntu.com/community/ApacheMySQLPHP there is no info about JJ
<jpds> Kangarooo: JJ?
<Kangarooo> Jaunty Jackalope
<Kangarooo> jpds: how to install to 9.04 / Jaunty Jackalope / JJ
<jpds> Well... someone has to edit the wiki and add it.
<Kangarooo> I want to be in documentation team
<Kangarooo> ask questions. finalize complete documentations.
<badenochs_ghost1> Hey Avi.
<badenochs_ghost1> Augustina, Kelvin, and Avi...are we all here?
<KelvinGardiner> yes
<missaugustina> I am here!
<badenochs_ghost1> Allo, Avi?
<badenochs_ghost1> Hmm...will wait 5 minutes.
<avi1> I am here
<badenochs_ghost1> Excellento!
<avi1> The window was blocked.
<badenochs_ghost1> Let's get started...how is everyone today?
<KelvinGardiner> Super, thanks.
<missaugustina> awesome
<avi1> Tired! Thanks.
<badenochs_ghost1> Sorry, Avi.  The time change is difficult.  I managed to get out of work early today.  But lets get right to it so we can get you to bed.
<badenochs_ghost1> I see that you've been very busy breaking up the work load.   I've been browsing the emails going back and forth.  Should we start the discussion with that?
<missaugustina> Sure!
<avi1> Understood!
<badenochs_ghost1> I'm tracking back through my emails...give me one sec.
<badenochs_ghost1> Augustina:  It appears that you go the ball rolling with the writing tasks.   Did you want to take the lead on this portion of the discussion?
<missaugustina> Sure I can do that
<missaugustina> First off, is everyone ok with how I divided the sections?
<KelvinGardiner> yes
<missaugustina> The person who takes a section isn't solely responsible for writing all of the content for that section.
<missaugustina> OK cool, just wanted to reiterate.
<badenochs_ghost1> I think thats brilliant.  It makes it easier if someone has the ultimate responsibility of making sure something is completed even when its a collaboration.
<missaugustina> Avi: Have you had a chance to review your sections and decide what you would want Kelvin and I to assist with?
<avi1> I have begun that
<avi1> I may want some assistance with teh alternate CD
<avi1> and I need to check something with Wubi.
<missaugustina> OK I can take on the Alternate CD
<missaugustina> I've had to use it in the past
<avi1> As we discussed last week, I think there are going to be some questions that I will bring up regarding wording for the burning the ISO and partitioning, but that can be discussed as it comes up
<badenochs_ghost1> Avi:  How are you going to approach the CD burning?
<avi1> I think will describe the general principle and then give a procedure for burning the CD with one specific software program
<badenochs_ghost1> I agree.  I think that is the best course of action and in line with the guide's philosophy.
<KelvinGardiner> Sounds good to me too.
<missaugustina> OK so I'm working on Section A, the Intro + FAQ
<missaugustina> How should our Installation Guide Intro differ from the existing Ubuntu Intro wording?
<missaugustina> I'm thinking there is some wording on the main page
<missaugustina> http://www.ubuntu.com/products/whatisubuntu
<missaugustina> I'm thinking for the Installation Guide, explain more about what the Installation guide will cover and assume the person already knows something about what ubuntu is?
<badenochs_ghost1> Agreed.
<badenochs_ghost1> The guide is going to be accessible with the ISO download.  So, I think that is a safe assumption.
<missaugustina> Whoops we lost DB
<missaugustina> Welcome back!
<badenochs_ghost1> Sorry....
<badenochs_ghost1> What did I miss?
<missaugustina> Nothing!
<badenochs_ghost1> I always get the last word.
<missaugustina> So for the FAQ, my next step is to put together a list of possible questions.
<missaugustina> I am just going to do it brainstorm style and edit it as we go.
<missaugustina> I think some of the FAQ will depend on the results of our Usability testing.
<badenochs_ghost1> This also may be useful:  https://help.ubuntu.com/community/PageHits.
<badenochs_ghost1> Augustina:  Agreed.  The usability testing will tell us a lot.
<missaugustina> Ah yes I remember that page.
<badenochs_ghost1> That links takes a minute to load.
<missaugustina> I will ask whoever is writing the technical session that might relate to a question to submit an answer for the FAQ.
<missaugustina> Otherwise, that's all for me.  Kelvin volunteered to take on C.
<missaugustina> *technical section, sorry
<badenochs_ghost1> The actual installation?
<KelvinGardiner> missaugustina: On your email C has the intro in. Are you doing C and I'm doing A?
<missaugustina> OK, let me double check how I divided it.  Sorry!
<missaugustina> Oh you're right, I was backwards.
<KelvinGardiner> ok.
<KelvinGardiner> My plan so far.
<badenochs_ghost1> So Avi = B, Augustina = C, and Kelvin = A?
<KelvinGardiner> The "what's next" will be how to install extra software, about community, how to get involved, where to get further help. It will main point to web pages.
<KelvinGardiner> badenochs_ghost1: I'm doing A.
<avi1> I believe that is correct.
<missaugustina> Are you ok with that Kelvin?  You'd asked for C in the email thread now that I'm looking at it.
<KelvinGardiner> yeah, I just pick on at random.
<missaugustina> I think I saw you mentioned troubleshooting and just had it in my head you were doing A
<KelvinGardiner> Not to worry.
<missaugustina> OK cool, sorry, I read too fast sometimes ;)
<KelvinGardiner> The trouble shooting section will have two parts. First part will be a list of links to hardware specific help pages. This is based on every problem on my macbook having a solution on the macbook wiki pages.
<KelvinGardiner> The second part will address common issues, based in the wiki hits page and forum question.
<KelvinGardiner> How does that sound?
<badenochs_ghost1> Sounds fine to me.
<missaugustina> I think that sounds great.
<missaugustina> Are there areas of the troubleshooting you'd currently like to delegate?
<missaugustina> You can also put topics out for delegation as we proceed.
<KelvinGardiner> I'll produce a list of issues over the next week and put them on the wiki. Then we can pick which ones we want to do.
<missaugustina> I have the shortest 2 sections so I'm more than happy to pick up anything.
<KelvinGardiner> ok
<missaugustina> Avi: I can do both the Alternate CD + Wubi sections.
<avi1> I'm probably fine on the Wubi, just need to check a few things
<avi1> Alternate CD would be great.
<badenochs_ghost1> Augustina:  What else do we have by way of the writing task to discuss?
<badenochs_ghost1> Sorry...writing tasks.
<missaugustina> That's all I can think of, unless anyone else has any writing tasks to discuss?
<KelvinGardiner> Where are we going to put the draft docs?
<badenochs_ghost1> KelvinGardiner:  That is an excellent question.  I am still new to this game.  So, I don't know.
<badenochs_ghost1> I haven't been able to reach Mr. Bull by email since he went on vacation.
<missaugustina> Should we set up a bzr branch?
<KelvinGardiner> Maybe we can have a project on LP with a bzr branch.
<missaugustina> We have a group on LP, right?  Should be easy to set up a group project.
<KelvinGardiner> I would think so, but I've not used LP for a project.
<badenochs_ghost1> I'm at launchpad now trying to figure it out.
<missaugustina> https://launchpad.net/projects/+new
<badenochs_ghost1> Should we do this now?
<missaugustina> DB: Do you want to take this on and do it when we're done, so Avi can get some sleep?
<missaugustina> I am more than happy to hang out and help
<badenochs_ghost1> I think that would be nice.  Will do.
<badenochs_ghost1> Let's finish up our discussion and send him to bed.
<avi1> Much appreciated :-) My mother would be thrilled :-)
<badenochs_ghost1> I need to address the style guide and we'll be done unless anyone else has something to discuss before I do.
<badenochs_ghost1> Hearing no other topics, I've settled on the Gnome Style Guide.  It seems to make the most sense for this project.  In the future, there may be a more Ubuntu-centric and updated style guide.
<missaugustina> What's the link for the Gnome Style Guide?
<badenochs_ghost1> http://library.gnome.org/devel/gdp-style-guide/stable/
<badenochs_ghost1> Any discussion, questions, or feedback?
<missaugustina> I think that sounds great.  I am sure we'll have questions as we're going along ;)
<avi1> Sounds like the best option
<KelvinGardiner> I'm happy to use that.
<badenochs_ghost1> Wonderful.  We are all set I think.  If there is nothing else, let's conclude.  Miss Augustina, why don't you hang out for a minute and we'll do the LP project.  Good day, good evening or good night Kelvin.  And to Avi, sweet dreams!
<avi1> thanks.... Good day/night.
<missaugustina> Yeah I'm hanging out!  Gnite Avi!!
<KelvinGardiner> Good night Avi.
<badenochs_ghost1> I hear my children looking for me.  Let's go ahead and tackle this Launchpad registration and we'll all be done for the day.
<badenochs_ghost1> What should I name this thing?
<KelvinGardiner> thanks, is good night for me its.
<missaugustina> Good Question, maybe something close to the group name?
<KelvinGardiner> ... 11.20pm here.
<missaugustina> Gnite Kelvin!
<missaugustina> It's only 3pm here :D  I'm slow :(
<badenochs_ghost1> That would be night.  Good night, sir.
<KelvinGardiner> Bye
<badenochs_ghost1> Augustina:  How about Ubuntu Installation Guide?
<missaugustina> Yeah sounds good.  I was looking to see what the group name was
<missaugustina> Ubuntu Installation Guide team
<badenochs_ghost1> Sure.  Is that the name?
<missaugustina> yeah Ubuntu Installation Guide is perfect since it's consistent
<missaugustina> yes that's our team name
<badenochs_ghost1> OK.   Let's go with Ubuntu Installation Guide.  The URL will be http://launchpad.net/ubuntuinstallguide
<badenochs_ghost1> OK.  Now I need a project title.
<missaugustina> Ubuntu Installation Guide ?
<badenochs_ghost1> That is exactly what I was thinking.  I'll type that in.
<badenochs_ghost1> OK.  It wants a summary.  Phil summary from the Wiki is:  "There is a clear need for a comprehensive installation guide which targets novice and intermediate users. Such a guide should be written and made easily discoverable to potential new users. "
<missaugustina> Sounds good to me, we can always change it.
<badenochs_ghost1> Sorry...Phil's summary from the Wiki...
<missaugustina> Maybe mention that it's part of the ubuntu documentation project
<badenochs_ghost1> OK.  I've started the process.  It wants to make sure I am not reinventing the wheel.
<missaugustina> Yeah
<badenochs_ghost1> Some similiar projects in here that never went anywhere.
<badenochs_ghost1> OK.  Now it wants to know what licenses we want to release the project under.
<missaugustina> yeah i'm doing a test project along with you so i can see the screens
<missaugustina> We are using the same license as ubuntu, I thought
<badenochs_ghost1> I would think its the Creative Commons license but I'm not sure.
<badenochs_ghost1> I think all the documentation would go under there.
<missaugustina> Gnome Style Guide lists GFDL
<missaugustina> http://www.gnu.org/licenses/fdl.html
<missaugustina> GNU Free Documentation License
<missaugustina> If we're going by the Gnome Style Guide, should we use their recommended license?
<badenochs_ghost1> My window just closed and I'll need to restart this thing.
<missaugustina> k no prob :)
<missaugustina> Creative Commons is correct for ubuntu
<missaugustina> I just did a quick search
<missaugustina> At least that's the wiki licensing -- https://help.ubuntu.com/community/License
<badenochs_ghost1> OK.  I am caught back up.
<missaugustina> Creative Commons ShareAlike 3.0 License (CC-BY-SA)
<missaugustina> That's the system docs
<missaugustina> https://help.ubuntu.com/legal.html
<badenochs_ghost1> Let's go with Creative Commons.  I think that is right.
<missaugustina> K that sounds good
<badenochs_ghost1> OK.  Its done.
<missaugustina> Sweet!
<missaugustina> What are the access rights for the project?
<badenochs_ghost1> I'm looking for how to change that.
<missaugustina> Does setting up a project in Launchpad automagically create a Bazaar branch?
<badenochs_ghost1> I don't know.  I'm working on access now for the team and then we can look into it.
<missaugustina> K I didn't know if it was related
<badenochs_ghost1> Augustina:  I need to go help my wife my kids, but I'll get you and the team access as soon as possible and see what is going on with Bazaar as well.
<badenochs_ghost1> I appreciate your help.
<missaugustina> Thanks!  Go do your thing.  I don't think there's a huge hurry immediately since we are still getting organized
<missaugustina> You could also post to the list, I'm positive someone on there knows the answers to these questiosn.
<missaugustina> questions
<badenochs_ghost1> Great meeting today.  Talk to you soon.
<missaugustina> Thx!  TTYL
#ubuntu-doc 2009-07-10
<nhandler> Is there a reason that we have ~ubuntu-installation-guide *and* ~ubuntuinstallationguide ?
#ubuntu-doc 2009-07-11
<Kotonet> OlÃ¡ pessoal, boa noite a todos!
#ubuntu-doc 2009-07-12
<carlitos> hmmm..............................
<fimfree2> I want to remember what was the marketing phrase wich appeared on the masthead on the ubuntu website when ubuntu hardy was released
<fimfree2> i remember it has that meaning "every os has some apps that you don't use, ubuntu is no different has the uninstall ...
<mdke> nhandler: frankly, I'm not entirely sure why we have either
<mdke> nhandler: that was in reference to your question about ~ubuntu-installation-guide *and* ~ubuntuinstallationguide
#ubuntu-doc 2010-07-13
<judax> Greetings!
<zkriesse> greetings to you judax
<judax> zkriesse: just stopped by to say "hi"; used to help out a bit
<zkriesse> awesome
#ubuntu-doc 2010-07-14
<shaunm> nixternal: hey
<nixternal> howdy shaunm
<shaunm> nixternal: hey, so what do we need to do to get some awesome compatibility between gnome and kde in the help system?
<shaunm> are you hacking khelpcenter?
<nixternal> i haven't been available for the past couple of months...i am going to start taking a look at it and seeing what has been happening while I was absent
<shaunm> not sure if anything happened
<shaunm> although I did implement the help system we put together in yelp
#ubuntu-doc 2010-07-15
<abhi_nav> hello
<abhi_nav_> hello I am here
#ubuntu-doc 2010-07-16
 * zkriesse hugs vish 
<vish> zkriesse: heya! :)
<zkriesse> vish: what's up dude?
<zkriesse> hello TLE
<TLE> zkriesse: hallo
<vish> zkriesse: checking the mails and wow , there are a lot to finish! :s
<zkriesse> yeah
<zkriesse> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oraONu7Jp_Y
<vish> lmao! wow!
<zkriesse> funny?
<vish> pretty well done ;)
<zkriesse> i wonder who did it
<alket> Is is possible to localize ubuntus wiki , wiki.ubuntu.com in my language ?
<popey> alket: visit the wiki in chrome browser and it will translate for you ;)
<alket> popey, I actually want to translate it
<alket> Google Translate from English to Albanian is funny
<popey> great!
<alket> I always laugh at it
<popey> :)
<popey> Are you in contact with your LoCo team?
<alket> im the LoCo team leader
<popey> You sound best placed to do it then :)
#ubuntu-doc 2010-07-17
<rayquaza59> hello I would like to participate to the translation of the Ubuntu wiki. How can I help?
#ubuntu-doc 2010-07-18
<Atamira> finally
<AlanBell> Hi all
<AlanBell> I am getting a bit fed up with the speed of the wiki, so looking for ways to improve it
<AlanBell> I think one problem might be the use of the <<FullSearch(foo)>> type queries embedded in pages rather than <<FullSearchCached(foo)>> which is much faster and much less processor load
<AlanBell> also if we installed the Xapian search engine that would take a load off the full text search, including user queries, I also suspect that it would work way better in terms of balancing load across multiple processors than the python search running in the same process as the wiki
<ubuntunight> is SnoStorm online?
<Atamira> dunno who that is
<ubuntunight> well,I want to contact editor of this page:https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Repositories/Ubuntu
<Atamira> send an email to the ubuntu documentation team
<ubuntunight> OK,thank you
<AlanBell> ubuntunight: lots of people edit the pages https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Repositories/Ubuntu?action=info
<ubuntunight> yes,I get the last one who edited it.
#ubuntu-doc 2011-07-11
<sladen> mdke: I've subscribed 'ubuntu-docs' to the just-filed:  https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu-docs/+bug/808667 ("help.ubuntu.com uses pre-2010 branding/theme")
<ubot2> Ubuntu bug 808667 in ubuntu-docs "help.ubuntu.com uses pre-2010 branding/theme" [Undecided,New]
<sladen> mdke: it's probably a case of porting the theme across from http://wiki.ubuntu.com/
<sladen> mdke: newz2000 reckons that is something that -docs would normally do, then pester IS to deploy the update
<mdke> sladen: we already have bugs about this, but yes, it requires us to develop/modify the moin theme and our toolchain for building the static part of the website
<mdke> sladen: I've marked it as a dup, thanks for bringing it to our attention
<sladen> mdke: thanks for finding the dup.  I've brought some of the information across
<sladen> mdke: is there anything myself or others on the Design team can do to help out?
<sladen> mdke: (I know little/nothing about moinmoin deployment, or how one uses themes with it)
<mdke> sladen: it just needs someone willing to work on it really.
<mdke> sladen: the information added to the description is not really helpful - the whole theme of the site needs changing, not just those files, and it's probably better not to specify those files separately. (I'm not much of a fan of changing the description of a bug when really you are adding a comment)
<mdke> the parenthesis just a minor whinge, feel free to ignore :)
<mdke> we had someone in the channel a while ago interested in working on this, but we didn't hear from them again. I can't remember who it was :(
<mdke> if anyone reading the scrollback can remember, let me know
 * mdke -> bed
<sladen> mdke: (it's just the information carried over from the other---the do-minimum if getting a new theme is going to take another year)
<sladen> mdke: I think what the bug report /could/ benefit from are some high-level details about how the theme can be deployed (is there a staging area)
<sladen> mdke: that's probably obvious to those people that are familiar, but somewhat alien for those (and as me) who don't know the current install
<cjohnston> mdke: is the current help.u.c theme somewhere for download?
#ubuntu-doc 2011-07-12
<mdke> sladen, cjohnston: yeah, I'll post instructions to the bug, hopefully later today
#ubuntu-doc 2011-07-16
<User__> https://mknowles.com.au/wordpress/2009/12/02/ubuntu-karmic-koala-9-10-%E2%80%93-full-disk-encryption-with-usb-key-authentication-v2/
<User__> help convert for ubuntu server cd
<User__> thish key in ubuntu server
<User__> how to ?
<User__> step different ?
#ubuntu-doc 2012-07-11
<littlegirl> Hey there, I don't have the power to edit the http://www.ubuntu.com/news/Official_Ubuntu_Book page, and the link to the Official Ubuntu Book is wrong. Is there someone with editing power who can change it to http://www.informit.com/store/product.aspx?isbn=0132748509      ?
<x1k> thanks i will check it out now
<littlegirl> Thanks. The bad link is http://www.phptr.com/bookstore/product.asp?isbn=0132435942&rl=1
<littlegirl> But there should only be one link in the page. (:
<x1k> i will make sure this gets added to the mailing list, since it's a website feature
<x1k> thanks for the heads up, good eye sniper!
<littlegirl> LOL, any time. (:
<littlegirl> It's linked to in the Kubuntu system documentation. (:
<x1k> are there any projects that need worked on? i am new to the team and looking to help out
<littlegirl> Hey there, the http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-core-doc/kubuntu-docs/quantal/view/head:/common/legalnotice.xml document links to a nonexistent copyright.html file and I'm trying to find out who maintains that file and any other local html files linked to in the Kubuntu system documentation and where I can find them. Any help would be appreciated. (:
<jbicha> littlegirl: it looks like that refers to the ccbysa file in common/
<littlegirl> jbicha: Sorry it took me so long to reply. The URL is to help:/kubuntu/copyright.html rather than common/ccbysa.xml, which is why I'm asking. (:
<bodhi_zazen> Has there been any discussion on the wiki search function ?
<bodhi_zazen> Go here - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/
<bodhi_zazen> use the search box "XChat"
<bodhi_zazen> Does not bring up this page - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/XChatHowto
<bodhi_zazen> which is the first result I get with a google search "ubuntu wiki xchat"
<littlegirl> It looks like https://wiki.ubuntu.com/XChatHowto redirects to https://help.ubuntu.com/community/XChatHowto which is probably why that's happening.
<bodhi_zazen> any idea how to make the search better ?
<littlegirl> No, sorry, I know how to make and edit pages in MoinMoin, but that's about the extent of it. Hopefully whoever wrote the search algorithm can figure out how to get around those redirects, because the wiki has plenty of them.
<bodhi_zazen> =)
<bodhi_zazen> any idea who to contact
<littlegirl> Looking...
<littlegirl> You're in the perfect place, but in case that doesn't work (and I don't see anyone but you and me talking about it yet), you can try the mailing list: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/Contact/
<littlegirl> And if worse comes to worst, you could try filing a bug report: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/ReportingBugs
<littlegirl> Probably the last one is best because I would say that's definitely a bug. (:
<jbicha> littlegirl: right, can't you either change the link to point to ccbysa.html, or move the ccbysa file to copyright.xml ?
<littlegirl> jbicha: I figured it out with some help by Riddell. The Makefile inside the kubuntu-docs directory uses the ccbysa file to create the license.html file and the link pointed to the nonexistent copyright.html file instead, so fixing it to point to license.html did it. (:
#ubuntu-doc 2012-07-12
<jbicha> littlegirl: ok cool :)
#ubuntu-doc 2012-07-13
<daggas> ++
#ubuntu-doc 2013-07-09
<Kris> Good evening documentation team, I'm needing to ask a quick questioN!
<pleia2> welcome Kris
<Kris> pleia2: Hello there
<pleia2> feel free to go ahead and ask, if anyone can help they will (otherwise the mailing list is best, since we're in all different timezones)
<Kris> I've became the TL of the Lubuntu Communications team, decided to edit some of the Wiki pages. Signed in with my Launchpad account and followed the Wiki How to and creating new pages guide. Wasn't able to do it so called on help from my good friend Phill Whitesise whos sent me here. I simply get the error 'you can't edit this page. I am logged in and have validated my email. Any ideas? Am I doing something silly?
<pleia2> Kris: is this at wiki.ubuntu.com or help.ubuntu.com ?
<Kris> wiki.ubuntu.com
<pleia2> so the documentation team handles stuff on help.ubuntu.com, but I can try to help :)
<pleia2> when do you get the "f the Wiki pages. Signed in with my Launchpad account and followed the Wiki How to and creating new pages guide. Wasn't able to do it so called on help from my good friend Phill  Whitesise whos sent me here. I simply get the error '
<pleia2> oops
<pleia2> when do you get the "you can't edit this page" error?
<Kris> Well I used the macro on the create a new page guide, after entering my selected page name it simply tells me I can't edit the page. Or if I visit wiki.ubuntu.com/mypagename it'll let me select a template but then locks me out
<pleia2> so that's the error I get when I'm not logged in
<pleia2> under the big orange ubuntu header, do you see your id?
<Kris> I assure you I'm logged in, I thought I was going crazy. Cleared the history and cache etc. Yes I'm there right now and have the 'logout' link rather than log in
<Kris> Do you mind if I share a link to my screenshot?
<pleia2> ok, you may need to submit a ticket with Canonical (they run that wiki) to look into it
<pleia2> have you edited other pages?
<Kris> No, I can't edit or create
<pleia2> I think they have anti-spam mechanisms so new people might not be able to create pages immediately, but again we just do help.ubuntu.com here and the wiki is different
<phillw> pleia2: thanks, I was also at my wits end... I'd tried every solution I knew of
<pleia2> to submit a ticket with Canonical IS you email rt@ubuntu.com
<pleia2> give the same details as you gave to me, and probably want to give a link to the screenshot
<pleia2> the canonical sysadmins hang out in #canonical-sysadmin but they won't take action on things without a ticket number (and it's quite late in the day to catch any of them anyway)
#ubuntu-doc 2013-07-10
<Kris> No problem, just to prove I'm not going crazy please see this for reference - I'm logged in lol http://imgur.com/QYCNU89
<pleia2> oh wait, that is help.ubuntu.com
<pleia2> so there are two wikis, the addresses are wiki.ubuntu.com (for team information) and help.ubuntu.com (for documentation)
<Kris> That's from the macro through help.ubuntu.com visiting wiki.ubuntu.com/mypagename doesn't work. Neither of them do, sorry I thought the macro set up pages for wiki
<pleia2> two separate accounts, you log in to both with launchpad
<phillw> pleia2: he cannot edit https://wiki.ubuntu.com/krismaguire
<pleia2> phillw: that's not the screenshot he shared
<pleia2> Kris: can you share a screenshot of trying to edit https://wiki.ubuntu.com/krismaguire ?
<Kris> Here's a test page http://imgur.com/hKNDTH1
<Kris> The krismaguire page I can view, but I'm not offered the option to edit, though I am logged in
<phillw> Kris: can you do as pleia2 has asked?
<pleia2> Kris: can you share a screenshot of what you see when you view the krismaguire page?
<Kris> My page http://imgur.com/P0LwQNi
<pleia2> ok, I'd submit the ticket to rt@ubuntu.com
<pleia2> I don't know what's going on there :)
<pleia2> your name isn't showing up at all in that screenshot
<Kris> Thank you, I'm just happy I'm not going insane
<phillw> indeed, it should be next to "logout"
<pleia2> http://princessleia.com/temp/logged_in_wiki.png
<pleia2> that's what mine looks like
<pleia2> see "lyz" next to "Logout"
<pleia2> yours is just empty for some reason
<pleia2> I suspect that's where the problem is
<pleia2> good luck :)
<pleia2> goofy wiki
<phillw> pleia2: and if you go to https://wiki.ubuntu.com/krismaguire you will your name and be able to edit.... I've never seen this one before :/
<pleia2> yeah, this is weird
<pleia2> sounds like something got messed up when the login was set up
 * phillw wonders to a delete and re-create.
<phillw> I can do that... let me see if it works.
<Kris> Very strange
<pleia2> oh, you have admin on the wiki too?
<pleia2> good to know :)
<phillw> Kris: can you try https://wiki.ubuntu.com/krismaguire now (it is blank)
<Kris> Still the same Phill
<phillw> pleia2: I'm one of the few who are https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-doc-wiki-admins
<pleia2> sounds like it's a wiki-wide problem with the account, not just with a single page
<pleia2> phillw: ah, I thought that was just for help.ubuntu.com
<phillw> Kris: raise an RT ticket as pleia2 has suggested.
<Kris> I have :)
<pleia2> Kris: they can be slow to respond sometimes, if you don't get a response in 24 hours you can go to #canonical-sysadmin and ask for some help
<pleia2> but hopefully they'll be on it once it's daytime for them
<phillw> pleia2: I keep my head down, it would need a very good reason for me to do the additional stuff. We are forswarn to not make 404 errors :D
<pleia2> phillw: oh no, I wasn't questioning at all
<pleia2> glad to see some community members can do wiki admin stuff :)
<phillw> I'd like to see more able. We had a 2nd lubuntueer with such rights, but RL ended that. TBH, having just 10, is far too few :(
<Kris> I just edited it fine in Firefox
<Kris> Problem appears to be with Chromium
<pleia2> Kris: oh wow, interesting
<phillw> Kris: It's the blooming cache!
<pleia2> Kris: (and I'd reply to the ticket saying so :))
<Kris> I cleared it earlier, I've cleared it twice and restarted the browser
<phillw> friking cookies etc.... :(
<pleia2> I use chrome for all my stuff, but it is crazy aggressive about caching, which when mixed with the wiki's server-side caching can cause many headaches
<phillw> Kris: do you want me to copy back over my profile for you to then edit?
 * phillw is glad lubuntu is switching back to the slimmed down fire fox pleia2 you may want to keep an eye open for this problem.
<pleia2> yeah, I'll keep "try a different browser" in mind next time ;)
<phillw> as will I :)
<phillw> Kris: do want me to dump my page back there for you to edit?
<Kris> I made a new page, copy it to https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Kristopher%20Maguire  please :)
<pleia2> probably don't want the space in the url
<pleia2> makes it messy and it won't autolink anywhere
<Kris> I'm not used to this Wiki stuff, well if I stick with the short link can I change my name along the top?
<pleia2> not sure what you mean by short link :\
<Kris> well /krismaguire is nice and short but I'd like my full name across the top. How do I do that?
<pleia2> oh, just https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KristopherMaguire
<pleia2> no space
<pleia2> the heading won't have a space either, but that's ok, we expect it on a wiki :)
<Kris> Sounds awesome
<phillw> Kris: let me know when is exists and I'll copy mine into it.
<Kris> I will do, although I've had enough for one night!
<Kris> catch you on FB
<Kris> pleia2: Thanks for the help, much appreciated!
<phillw> I'll create is for you and do the copy. Indeed, enough for one night!
<phillw> pleia2: +1
#ubuntu-doc 2013-07-11
<pleia2> bkerensa: can we get a status update on where you are with updating the getting involved docs?
<pleia2> (last I knew you had sent it off to a couple reviewers, wondering if it's time to open it up to more reviewers?)
<bkerensa> pleia2: surely... e-mail sent
<pleia2> thank you :)
#ubuntu-doc 2013-07-12
<mario_26> bonjour !
<bkerensa> pleia2: So we are going to need some Wiki Admin Rights for myself and others working on the Doc Onboarding if possible.
 * bkerensa is not sure who has access to add people
<pleia2> bkerensa: probably, I'd start a thread on the mailing list about that specifically
<pleia2> bkerensa: I think historically we've sent "applications" to the mailing list to become wiki admins, then people comment on your qualifications
<bkerensa> pleia2: yeah so there is already one open
<bkerensa> but my understanding is the person who added them previously
<pleia2> oh, I should catch up on my email
<bkerensa> is no longer around
<bkerensa> Phil used to have access
<bkerensa> but is now saying something about not having it
<bkerensa> :)
<pleia2> he's an admin, but I think regular admins can't add people
<pleia2> probably a ticket to Canonical IS is required
<pleia2> the CC can add people to the launchpad team, but we have absolutely nothing to do with the wiki
<pleia2> Canonical IS can look up who is admin on it, since you're an admin of the doc team in LP they should listen to your authorityness :) (can Cc: me on the ticket if you're worried)
<bkerensa> pleia2: I just assign it to the Portland Canoni IS guy :p
<pleia2> hah :)
<pleia2> whatever works!
#ubuntu-doc 2014-07-07
<pmatulis> morning
#ubuntu-doc 2014-07-13
<belkinsa> pmatulis, morning are you around?
#ubuntu-doc 2015-07-07
<pmatulis> did anyone remember the meeting today?
#ubuntu-doc 2017-07-10
<xenops> Hello! Is this channel open to general discussion about the documentation, or is it reserved for active members of the documentation team?
<pleia2> anyone is welcome here to chat about Ubuntu documentation :)
<xenops> thanks! glad to hear it.  I'm not a sysadmin or a developer; just simply looking to gain experience for technical writing.  I am going through the wiki guide, and it's answering a lot my questions so far.
