#ubuntu-devel 2004-12-27
<lamont_r> sigh...  conf connectivity to the US seems to have tanked.
<Mithrandir> thom: shtoom packages.  *crave*
<linux_mafia> anyone in here that can take ops in #ubuntu? you gotta kick this dude, he's flooding like crazy
<linux_mafia> never mind, its stopped, and he said was a mistake
<magnon> I love how it says "utnudu" on my chest while looking in the mirror.
<lamont_r> Mithrandir: THERE ARE PACKAGES????
<Mithrandir> lamont_r: he ITP-ed it, at least.
<lamont_r> Mithrandir: DUDE! kewl.
* lamont_r rolls yet another util-linux upstream upgrade
<Mithrandir> lamont_r: I'm bothering your buildds with YA ooo build.
<Mithrandir> this one ought to work, though
<lamont_r> feh
* lamont_r takes a typing break
* haggai waves to the Mataroers from the cold reaches of England
<Mithrandir> hi haggai 
<Mithrandir> haggai: do you want the patch for using stamp-dir instead of the target directly?
<haggai> Mithrandir: yes, if you're not going to upload it
<haggai> otherwise I'll just resync with the pkgs
<Mithrandir> uploaded 15 minutes ago, or so.
<RubenV> is it possible to reset your plone password, I wanna give Rosetta a try
<RubenV> for Belgium Dutch
<RubenV> hmmm, I've found my password in the firefox history
<RubenV> but I can't log into the launch pad
<mjg59> daniels: I've managed to get X into a weird state where it's not updating the background properly
<mjg59> So if I change desktops, I get the contents of the previous desktop in the background behind the text
<mjg59> Persists over X restarts, and I can screengrab it in this state
<mjg59> daniels: http://www.codon.org.uk/~mjg59/tmp/brokenx.png
<mjg59> daniels: A suspend/resume cycle seems to have fixed it, so I'm guessing it's some weird interaction between vbestate and X
<wasabi_> Hey can somebody explain to me why we distribute mp3 software in universe
<wasabi_> but not in main
<wasabi_> is universe offshore or something?
<wasabi_> Or is it simply principal?
<infinity> May have more to do with the fact that Ubuntu main is a pretty small core set of packages, and universe is "everything else from Debian that doesn't FTBFS"
<infinity> ie: Perhaps some folk don't consider said mp3 apps terribly "core".
<wasabi_> So it just came along for the ride.
<wasabi_> There are a number of instances on u-d where somebody's request for mp3 support from main was rebuked because of patent concerns.
<wasabi_> Which begs the question of how it can be in universe. ;)
<infinity> Oh, then ignore me. :)
<wasabi_> Naw, im just asking.
<infinity> Another valid concern would be that main is (likely) the only bit that ever makes it out on pressed/redistributed CDs.
<infinity> I'm sure that makes a difference somewhere, to someone... Somehow.
<infinity> You'd have to ask someone more in the know than I am, though.
<wasabi_> My guess is that it's in Debian, and probably should be removed from Debian too. =/
<wasabi_> But that nobody cares to do it. heh.
<infinity> Debian has an interesting "decoders are kosher, encoders aren't" attitude, backed up by some rather interesting legal wrangling.
<infinity> Are there mp3 encoders in main that I don't know about?
<wasabi_> I thought xmms was
<infinity> Just a decoder, afaik.
<wasabi_> Well, Debian's legal stuff seems suspicious to me.
<wasabi_> Decoders are clearly licensed.
<infinity> Yes, it's the vailidity of the patent that seems to be in question, not the existance of it.
<infinity> Or some such.
<wasabi_> You only have to go to... franwhomevers site to see the prices listed.
<wasabi_> I find it confusing that Debian would be prepared to accept that risk.
<linux_mafia> on the shipping cds point of view, thats probably the sticking point, franhoffer (sp?) probably dosent go after you if you are not actively giving out mp3 capabilities
<wasabi_> xmms is in main.. just checked.
<linux_mafia> perhaps its an mp3 crippled one, like in rh/fedora
<wasabi_> possible. I know Debina's isn't.
<wasabi_> debians
<infinity> Debian doesn't stand to lose much, really.  FH isn't likely to sue us (we don't have any money), and if they sent a cease and desist, we could.. Y'know... Cease.. And desist.
<wasabi_> Ubuntu's position may change that.
<wasabi_> At least practically.
<wasabi_> THey seem to have money. ;)
<infinity> Ubuntu's free to distribute what they want.
<wasabi_> Yeah.
<wasabi_> I'm just curious about it.
<infinity> Obviously, Ubuntu doesn't (and never will) distribute all of Debian's archive.
<wasabi_> it's hard to consistantly answer somebody's questions about mp3 support in gstreamer.
<infinity> For a variety of reasons, from "some of it may get them in hot water" to "lots of it is crap".
<linux_mafia> heh, i notice they keep well away from the vid/dvd stuff though, christian marillats little domain, i guess the RIAA always shoots to kill
<wasabi_> marillat is in france i believe. 
<infinity> s/RIAA/MPAA/
<wasabi_> i think
<wasabi_> thought.
<infinity> And I wouldn't say Debian stays "right away from it"...
<linux_mafia> infinity, yes sorry, thanks for correction
<infinity> There are plenty of patent-encumbered MPEG decoders in an around Debian.
<infinity> About the only thing missingis DeCSS.
<infinity> And mplyer, but that has more to do with it having been a license nightmare for ages.
<linux_mafia> infinity, actually youre right now you made me think a bit deeper about it, i guess i only think about the apps i use
<mxpxpod> how do I go about making kernel-header packages that aren't empty?
<wasabi_> make-kpkg kernel_headers not working?
<mxpxpod> wasabi_: it's giving me /usr/src/kernel-headers-2.6.9-blah with only makefiles in the directory
<wasabi_> that sucks. ;)
<wasabi_> i haven't tried it in a long time, since Debian.
<mxpxpod> wasabi_: do you make your own kernel-image .debs?
<wasabi_> Since Ubuntu I haven't.
<wasabi_> I think I got over it.
<linux_mafia> mxpxpod, i do, whys that?
<mxpxpod> linux_mafia: why's what?
<infinity> mxpxpod : Are you doing it in the same invocation?
<mxpxpod> infinity: yes
<infinity> mxpxpod : make-kpkg kernel_image kernel_headers?
<mxpxpod> infinity: yup
<linux_mafia> mxpxpod, i thought you were gonna ask a question about making kernel-image debs
<mxpxpod> infinity: well, I add a --append-to-version in there
<infinity> What version of kernel-package do you have?
<mxpxpod> 8.114ubuntu1
<infinity> Doubly weird.  I have no problems with an essentially identical Debian version.
<mxpxpod> infinity: so, you do it in the same invocation as well?
<infinity> <nod>
<mxpxpod> welp, I gotta get going
<mxpxpod> I'll try doing this again (maybe I screwed something up) and see what I come up with
<diego> hi all
<diego> what is being done to shorten boot times?
<Treenaks> `qlots of things
<diego> that's good...is there a page documenting the procedures being carried out?
<Treenaks> uh
<Treenaks> don't know
<Treenaks> you should ask here in ~ 2.5 hours, when everyone on the conference wakes up
<diego> conference?
<Treenaks> thare's a conference going on in Mataro, Spain
<Treenaks> with lots of Ubuntu developers
<diego> oh right, right, i'll be sure to stick around then. thanks
<ironwolf> lamont_r? you awake yet?
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<diego> good morning fabbione
<daniels> mjg59: interesting, bob2 is seeing roughly the same thing
<elmo> doko: a whole bunch got rejected - I assume you saw that?
<Keybuk> Warning: Permanently added 'arch.netsplit.com' (RSA) to the list of known hosts.
<Keybuk> ...why is that a Warning?  I just typed "yes"
<Treenaks> Keybuk: you should've answered 'maybe'
<Keybuk> n..no...no...no...no...no...n..no..Yes.
<Keybuk>  Nothing like changing the byte order of structure fields to really drive the "out-of-tree" driver writers crazy. I like it :)
<Keybuk> -- Greg Kroah-Hartman 
<Keybuk> *snigger*
<Treenaks> 8)
<fabbione> mdz: you here?
<Kamion> jdub: I wouldn't be so opposed to using python-udeb for individual UIs for modules that run after anna; that would only kill lowmem, and they can use newt or whatever
<Kamion> jdub: python-udeb in the initrd I think is totally wrong.
<Kamion> I suspect that may have been what joeyh was thinking of, but I'll have to talk with him
<Kamion> however, that would mean adding cdebconf bindings to python
<pitti> lifeless: btw, fixing pmount just for vfat is trivially easy, without changing umasks for CD-ROM etc.
<lifeless> cool!
<pitti> lifeless: I have to do some security stuff before, then I can do this
<seb128> BONG, this discussion on the filenames translations in GNOME is endless
<ross> "lets stop this endless discussion, ok?"
<ross> "sure, but..."
<sjoerd> seb128: your actually reading it ?
<seb128> no, I've some real stuff to do actually :p
<sjoerd> ;)
<fabbione> pitti: -8 will have SELINUX compiled but disabled as we discussed yesterday
<pitti> fabbione: cool
<elmo> uh, shouldn't we drop support for like 2.1 by now?
<jdub> daniels: come upstairs :)
<elmo> if 2.4 is going to be the default
<jdub> Keybuk: tell daniels to come upstairds
<mdz> QualityAssuranceAndTesting BOF is starting upstairs NOW
<Treenaks> /topic DANIELS, COME UPSTAIRS
<Kamion> dists/hoary/restricted/binary-sparc/Packages.gz
<Kamion> oops
<Kamion> http://people.ubuntu.com/~cjwatson/germinate-hoary-output/rdepends/python2.1/python2.1
<Kamion> elmo: ^--
<elmo> yeah, but most of those are surely because of 2.1 variants of other modules?
<Kamion> build-depends sure, not convinced about the depends though
<Kamion> pychecker's is an alternative dependency, python2.1 not default
<Kamion> so yeah, probably correct
<elmo> [and while we're at it, why not 2.2 too :p] 
<Kamion> interesting, if I experimentally add universe to the list of components for germinating debootstrap, it wants to add dialog to base
<Keybuk> lamont: how do I configure postfix to use a smarthost over tls with smtp authentication
<Treenaks> lamont: please tell me the exact same thing :)
<Kinnison> seb128: evolution's packaging... how do I easily edit a single patch?
<lamont_r> Keybuk: you see the bts for postfix-tls and find the howto that's in one of those... it's a hoary thing I haven't done yet...
<seb128> Kinnison, cdbs, patches are in debian/patches in standard diff format
<seb128> so trivial I would say
<azeem> seb128: how do you edit patches with cdbs' simple-patchsys?
<azeem> with vi?
<Kinnison> seb128: okay; give me the process for editing the 02 patch
<daniels> azeem: badly
<azeem> anybody using quilt for this stuff?
<seb128> azeem, tar xzf *.orig.tar.gz && cp -af dir dir.org && cd dir && patch && cd .. && diff 
<azeem> yeah
<azeem> seb128: dude, this is almost 2005 :P
<seb128> and ?
<seb128> I almost never edit patches
<seb128> I get them from bugzilla, or work with the CVS and cvs diff
<thom> huh? seriously?
<thom> dear god.
<azeem> then you don't need quilt, and simple-patchsys is good enough
<seb128> and I just need to cp the diff in debian/patches
<daniels> thom	it's the only sane way to work with simple-patchsys
<daniels> it is SO BROKEN
<azeem> thom: cdbs can also use dpatch and quilt, besides its own simple-patchsys
<thom> azeem: i know
<seb128> thom, I edit the sources and diff on the source control system (cvs, svn, tla, ...)
<daniels> dpatch is love
<fabbione> daniels: why don't you switch X to dpatch?
<seb128> daniels, you are the broken one dude
<daniels> fabbione: stfu noob hth hand kthxbye
<fabbione> daniels: uha uha uha
<daniels> seb128: simple-patchsys doesn't scale to x, therefore it sucks :P
<fabbione> doko: in your python upload orgy you forgot pyopengl
<fabbione> at least that i can see
<azeem> daniels: did you look at quilt?
<daniels> azeem: yes
<azeem> and?
<daniels> it's quilt
<azeem> I only looked at it briefly, and would like to know other people's opinions
<azeem> aha
<thom> subversion notably uses cdbs and quilt
<thom> it looked like bad, bad crack to me
<seb128> daniels, right :)
<bob2> what should be saving my mixer settings over reboots?
<bob2> (ie where should I file a bug when it doesn't ;)
<thom> alsa
<daniels> alsa-bsae
<daniels> base
<Kinnison> seb128: ye gods; that's vile
<pitti> Keybuk: what about using procmail for local mail delivery?
<thom> pitti: why?
<pitti> thom: Keybuk's mail on u-devel
<pitti> thom: kicking postfix
<thom> no, why would you use procmail?
<thom> i know the context
<daniels> procmail is love
<jamesh> procmail is worse than perl.
<pitti> thom: it should reasonably act as a local MTA
<pitti> thom: or does it not?
<thom> pitti: but oh, the complexity!
<thom> pitti: that's just replacing one horror show with a different one
<pitti> thom: do you know something simpler?
<thom> pitti: the suggestion is that we write a minimal one in python, according to scott's spec or the discussion thereof
<pitti> thom: the suggestion was "unless there is something that already does this"
<pitti> thom: I could not find one, though
<pitti> thom: so rewriting one could be an option
<pitti> thom: s/re//
<thom> pitti: i think that if the choice is procmail or nothing, nothing wins
<pitti> thom: then this basically means rewriting procmail in python, then?
<jamesh> it should implement the sieve mail filtering spec
<jamesh> since that has an RFC
<jamesh> (and sieve scripts are actually readable)
* pitti thinks that reimplementing existing stuff is kind of a waste
<pitti> jamesh: can't we at least use sieve and/or procmail as a "backend"?
<pitti> thom: ^
<pitti> then we only need a root daemon which calls procmail/sieve/whatever as the target user
<elmo> pitti: dude, have you read the procmail source code?
<pitti> elmo: yes, it's crap
<elmo> that's insulting to crap
<pitti> ;-)
<jamesh> there is a sieve library implementation in Cyrus
<pitti> jamesh: what about the one in mailutils?
<daniels> root daemon + procmail == whoops
<pitti> daniels: ?
<jamesh> pitti: it has a sieve impl?
<pitti> jamesh: "  sieve -- a mail filtering tool."
<pitti> jamesh: ^  from the package description
<pitti> jamesh: I don't know it, though
<pitti> OTOH: for local-only delivery, we don't really need mail filtering
<thom> pitti: indeed
<pitti> evo etc. can do it on their own
<thom> pitti: if you need that, use postfix
<pitti> so basically, we only need a setgid mail daemon which appends the mails in /var/mail/$user?
<Keybuk> yeah
<pitti> this should indeed be easy
<Keybuk> took me only about 10m to implement ... :p
<Keybuk> . o O ( always implement the proposed spec before sending it :p )
<lamont_r> Keybuk: your points 5-7 are incorrect...
<Keybuk> lamont_r: no they are not
<lamont_r> listens on 127.0.0.1
<lamont_r> and ::1
<Keybuk> doesn't
<lamont_r> beg to differ.
<Keybuk> tcp        0      0 0.0.0.0:25              0.0.0.0:*               LISTEN
<pitti> tcp        0      0 localhost.localdom:smtp *:*                     LISTEN     4065/master
<Treenaks> postfix listens on localhost -> master.cf to fix that
<pitti> ^ default config
<Keybuk> syndicate scott% sudo lsof -i :25
<Keybuk> COMMAND   PID USER   FD   TYPE DEVICE SIZE NODE NAME
<Keybuk> master  10807 root   11u  IPv6  85850       TCP *:smtp (LISTEN)
<Keybuk> master  10807 root   12u  IPv4  85851       TCP *:smtp (LISTEN)
<lamont_r> Keybuk: you changed your config, or had previously installed postfix from debian
<Keybuk> lamont_r: neither.  fresh install _yesterday_
<daniels> daniels@catsby:~/canonical/xorg/arch/pristine/xorg-6.8.1/build-tree/xc/fonts/bdf/75dpi% netstat -an | grep 25
<daniels> tcp        0      0 127.0.0.1:25            0.0.0.0:*               LISTEN     
<daniels> tcp6       0      0 ::1:25                  :::*                    LISTEN     
<jamesh> pitti: I wonder if it uses the same implementation?
<pitti> hmm, my config is still from warty
* lamont_r actually looks
<pitti> jamesh: as I said, I have no idea
<sid77> hi
<pitti> Keybuk: my master.cf says:
<pitti> 127.0.0.1:smtp inet n   -       -       -       -       smtpd
<pitti> ::1:smtp       inet n   -       -       -       -       smtpd
<pitti> Keybuk: is that different from yours?
<pitti> Keybuk: if so, then probably a patch got lost during the merge
<Keybuk> entirely like;y
<Keybuk> smtp      inet  n       -       -       -       -       smtpd
<pitti> argh
<lamont_r> pitti: I'll get that fixed
<pitti> lamont_r: is it possible that this "localhost only" patch got lost during merge?
<lamont_r> Keybuk: your proposed daemon - support for .forward files?  delivery to commands?  Those both render the problem into a can of worms
<Keybuk> if users want that functionality, they can install a proper MDA
<lamont_r> keybuk: is there a bug in bz for the bad default?
<Keybuk> bz?
<pitti> bugzilla?
<lamont_r> bugzilla.
* lamont_r uploads a new postfix. :-(
<lamont_r> then I get to track down the config template change dropage
<lamont_r> was introduced in 2.1.5-1ubuntu1 in hoary
<lamont_r> on oct 30.  Any fresh install since then listens on *:25, and will until postfix is purged/installed, or the config is edited.
<mjg59> Keybuk: Can you try http://bugzilla.kernel.org/show_bug.cgi?id=3909 at some point?
<Keybuk> mjg59: ooh, sure -- gimme an hour or two to finish playing smtpd
<lamont_r> Keybuk: your proposed damon, 3 requires configuration - guessing doesn't work.  4 requires a full featured MTA, pretty much
<Keybuk> disagree
<Simira> you guys are working to hard! I can't keep up with the mailing-lists!
<Treenaks> Simira: dont subscribe to hoary-changes ;)
<Simira> Treenaks: I'm not.
<Treenaks> Simira: THAT one's busy :)
<Simira> though I consider update my server to hoary, as my sound don't work
<Simira> Treenaks: I'm not on that OR users
<pitti> lamont_r: is it now "postfixitagain"?
<fabbione> doko: mind to check http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=278449 ?
<fabbione> doko: perhaps you have an idea of a fix
<trukulo> fabbione, chronicles about the conference, in spanish in my web
<fabbione> hey trukulo !
<fabbione> url?
<trukulo> http://mercurio.homeip.net/blog/79/ <- only spanish , sorry
<seb128> doko, 
<seb128> Dpaquetage de python2.4-twisted ( partir de .../python2.4-twisted_1.3.0-4ubuntu1_all.deb) ...
<seb128> dpkg: erreur de traitement de /var/cache/apt/archives/python2.4-twisted_1.3.0-4ubuntu1_all.deb (--unpack):
<seb128>  tentative de remplacement de /usr/share/man/man1/im.1.gz, qui appartient aussi au paquet python2.3-twisted
<moquist> I'm interested in working on an LTSP .deb for Ubuntu.  Anybody know if that's already happening?
<moquist> Also, I'm coming from the Gentoo world (and I've never used Debian); are there virtual deps I need to know about when filling out Depends:, or can I just list packages by name?
<thom> moquist: http://www.debian.org/doc/debian-policy/ch-binary.html#s-virtual_pkg
<moquist> thom: cool; thx!
<thom> np
<trukulo> fabbione, r u awake, there, and have 5 minutes?
<sladen> did anyone get a "vegetarian" death-wish that didn't contain "salmon" ?
<daniels> sladen: kinnison did, and palmed it off
<sladen> Keybuk: did you manage get anything without fish in exchange?
<fabbione> trukulo: i am awake of course.. i need 5 minutes before i have 5 minutes completely free... (smoking break)
<trukulo> you have them
<trukulo> :)
<fabbione> ;)
<fabbione> trukulo
<fabbione> e
<fabbione> re
<trukulo> ok, query please
<bob2> anyone noticed if usb-storage is significantly unfucked in the latest 2.6.9 kernels?
<Treenaks> bob2: the weird ub driver got ditched
<Treenaks> bob2: so it should work like it did in 2.6.8.1
<bob2> oh, rock
<bob2> now to just find my usb key
<bob2> and camera cable
* Treenaks is going to haxx0r the quickcam driver tonight...
<Treenaks> stupid logitech
<Mithrandir> pitti: what's the current state of postgres 8?
<pitti> Mithrandir: test suite fails for beta4; I did not try RC1 yet
<Treenaks> Mithrandir: http://www.postgresql.org/news/253.html :)
<Mithrandir> Treenaks: I was more interested in the current state of it in ubuntu/debian
<Mithrandir> I know the upstream state.
<Treenaks> will it upgrade cleanly? :)
<pitti> Mithrandir: it's still 7.4.6, and this is not going to change for Sarge
<Treenaks> (unlike the 6.x->7.0->7.1->7.2->7.3->7.4 breakages)
<sladen> Kinnison: dude, signkeys build chokes on noodles' keydb_db4.c
<pitti> Mithrandir: if we need an 8.0 package in Ubuntu, then I can package it
<Mithrandir> true, but there has been talk of putting one in experimental
<pitti> Mithrandir: Oliver Elphick started repackaging it for the new multiversion architecture
<pitti> Mithrandir: he did not report back so far :-(
<Treenaks> Oliver Elphick should not be let close to pg8!
<pitti> Mithrandir: but I will ping him, maybe I can finish the packaging
<pitti> Treenaks: ?
<Treenaks> pitti: afaik, he broke the upgrade scripts for the older postgresql series migrations
<Mithrandir> pitti: ok
<Treenaks> pitti: and didn't accept patches
<pitti> Treenaks: the whole concept of the current upgrading is brokebn
<pitti> Treenaks: patches do not help there any more
<pitti> Treenaks: I rewrote half of the scripts, it got a bit better
<pitti> Treenaks: but this does not help for woody upgrades since they still use the maitnainer scripts from 7.2
<Treenaks> pitti: I'm on sarge, does that help?
<pitti> Treenaks: that's why I persuaded him of complete repackaging
<pitti> Treenaks: if you already run 7.4, then you are fine
<Treenaks> pitti: OK :)
<pitti> Treenaks: I write him a mail now
<Kinnison> sladen: try ./configure --with-backend=fs or whatever it's called
<daniels>   70025 debian/patches/000_stolen_from_6.8_branch.diff
<daniels>  111987 total
<bob2> Updating OpenOffice.org's dictionary list... done.
<bob2> [Invalid UTF-8]  Could not parse file '/usr/share/applications/ooo645calc.desktop': desktop entry contain line 'Comment[ca] =Fulla de c\xc3| lcul d'OpenOffice.org' which is not UTF-8
<daniels> mua ha ha 
<Mithrandir> daniels: known issue
<daniels> Mithrandir: what, that we have a lot of patches?
<Mithrandir> uhm
<Mithrandir> s/daniels/bob2/
<bob2> ah
<lupus_> Unpacking python2.4-twisted (from .../python2.4-twisted_1.3.0-4ubuntu1_all.deb) ...
<lupus_> dpkg: error processing /var/cache/apt/archives/python2.4-twisted_1.3.0-4ubuntu1_all.deb (--unpack):
<lupus_>  trying to overwrite `/usr/share/man/man1/im.1.gz', which is also in package python2.3-twisted
<fabbione> please stop pasting errors here
<fabbione> it is a known problem
<pitti> mdz: got a minute?
<sladen> Kinnison: "# This is your name / primary UID or whatever"  <-- signee or singer?
<mooch> daniels: dstone?
<Kinnison> sladen signuid's encrypted content? signee
<daniels> mooch: yeha
<daniels> yeah, even
<mooch> daniels: just funny that you noticed about the nokia possition
<ross> hi mooch 
<sid77> I've noticed that apt-get do 101 http get per tcp connection (or something similar), is there a way to modify this value?
<sivang> You don't have permission to access / on this server."
<Treenaks> sivang: what server
<sivang> Treenaks : no sorry, this was meant to go private to someone..:)
<moquist> Magnus just asked the ubuntu-devel list, but I'm less patient.  :)  Is this the place for aspiring devs to ask questions about package creation and testing, or is there another place to ask that stuff?  Wiki page, perhaps?
<thom> moquist: here.
<jdub_> $ sudo /etc/init.d/readahead_early restart
<jdub_>  * Reading essential files...
<jdub_> cat: /etc/readahead/earlyfiles: No such file or directory
<jdub_>    ...done.
<jdub_> 
<jdub_> thom: needs a shutdown to have earlyfiles?
<jdub_> thom: (shouldn't it be in /var?)
<thom> no, readahead_early is irrelevant and not in your startup anymore
<moquist> thom: k; thx.  In that case, what is the recommended testing method for new .deb files?  AFAICT I can't use 'apt-get' because my .deb isn't in any sources list.  But I want to make sure I've covered all the deps, so dpkg -i appears to be insufficient.
<jdub_> thom: i just upgraded and /etc/init.d/readahead said that :)
<ross> moquist: create a local repository?
<thom> no, you just pasted readahead_early, not readahed
<thom> readahead
<jdub_> oh yeah
<jdub_> and yet, it is still there
<thom> in rcS?
<moquist> ross: ok.  I wondered if that would be the answer, but didn't want to take off making things harder than they need to be (if indeed this is hard at all - I have no idea.)
<thom> moquist: use apt-ftparchive to create an archive, it's really easy
<jdub_> thom: no, but the initscript is there
<thom> moquist: really, you ought to have at least a quick read of the debian NM guide. :-)
<thom> jdub_: *shrug*
<thom> jdub_: it'll go away if you purge, otherwise it does nothing
<jdub_> still there after purge
<thom> file a bug, severity trivial. it's cosmetic issue that mostpeople won't even see
<jdub_> i have eyes in the back of my /etc/init.d directory
<moquist> thom: k.  i've been looking at the Debian Policy Manual, but the NM list/guide/corner looks quite helpful.
<thom> moquist: it definitely is
<moquist> anybody know if there are plans for an 'ubuntu-mentors' mailing list ever?
<jdub_> moquist: yeah, potentially in the new year
<moquist> jdub_: cool.  that will be good.
<Keybuk> [ #Broken: 37 ]  ... Impressive.
<thom> Keybuk: eh?
<Keybuk> 37 uninstallable packages currently
<Kamion> 68 on i386 in main
<Kamion> mostly python, doko's going to be looking at it
<Keybuk> yeah, sadly "world" Depends: python  these days
<sivang> moquist : you can try use the debian-mentors list at the moment, and contact ChrisH about it - he's the project ownder for debian mentors, most of the stuff are similar in packaging so you could get a good start.
<pitti> Hi sivang!
<moquist> sivang: thanks!
* lamont__r larts daniels
<lamont__r> why did my mouse,and then keyboard go away, huh?
<sivang> moquist : by the way he's a close freind of mine, so you can tell him I've sent you and you can join the #ubuntu-doc channel as he's also a memeber of ubuntu doc team :)
<sivang> pitti : Hi marin!
<sivang> pitti : Hi martin!
<sivang> pitti : ENjoying the conference?
<`anthony> can whoever has a laptop in the BOF room that will talk to the projector please grab http://www.interlink.com.au/anthony/tech/talks/Ubuntu/python-ubuntu.sxi
<daniels> lamont__r: it's a gtk bug
<lamont__r> grumble
* seb128 kicks daniels 
<lamont__r> seb128: fix it.  kthxbye
<mdz> pitti: yes
<pitti> mdz: "yes" to what?
<Keybuk> this is just begging for FIGLET ...
<Treenaks> Keybuk: who are you? GMAIL?
<Keybuk> Treenaks: you are LIVE in the BOF room ...
<daniels> HELLO BOF ROOM
* Treenaks waves to the BOF attendees
<Kamion> __   _____  _   _ ___   __  __ _   _ __  __
<Kamion> \ \ / / _ \| | | | _ \ |  \/  | | | |  \/  |
<Kamion>  \ V / (_) | |_| |   / | |\/| | |_| | |\/| |
<Kamion>   |_| \___/ \___/|_|_\ |_|  |_|\___/|_|  |_|
<Burgundavia_> regarding rosetta, it might be good if as the package is uploaded, you could have optionbox for the original language of the program, thus you wouldn;t have wierdness like gconf-editor saying it is not in English
<jdub_> /bin/sh: 3: No such file or directory
<jdub_> /bin/sh: 3: No such file or directory
<`anthony> Python BOF starting in a couple of minutes.
<Treenaks> go jdub_, go jdub_ 
<jdub_> haha
<jdub_>  ___   _    _____   _____   _   _ ___ _   _ _  _ _____ _   _ 
<jdub_> |_ _| | |  / _ \ \ / / __| | | | | _ ) | | | \| |_   _| | | |
<jdub_>  | |  | |_| (_) \ V /| _|  | |_| | _ \ |_| | .` | | | | |_| |
<jdub_> |___| |____\___/ \_/ |___|  \___/|___/\___/|_|\_| |_|  \___/ 
<jdub_> 
<daniels> (developers! developers! developers! developers!)
<sid77> o_O
* maswan waves a bit
<daniels>                 _   _                   
<daniels>  _ __ ___ _ __ | |_| |__   ___  _   _   
<daniels> | '__/ _ \ '_ \| __| '_ \ / _ \| | | |  
<daniels> | | |  __/ | | | |_| |_) | (_) | |_| |_ 
<daniels> |_|  \___|_| |_|\__|_.__/ \___/ \__, (_)
<daniels>                                 |___/   
<lamont__r> jdub_: proportinal fonts can suck
<Burgundavia_> daniels, you missed about 15 developers
<daniels> Burgundavia_: the ubuntu developer base isn't actually 20, i don't think
<Burgundavia_> no, i was refering to the rant from ballmer
<daniels> ah
<sivang> are we online a BOF room's LCD?
<sivang> jdub : when is the first Ubuntu love day ? :))
<jdub_> sivang: january
<jdub_> sivang: not on the bof screen atm
<Treenaks> Ubuntu love day?
<Keybuk> Burgundavia_: rant? ballmer?
<jdub_> fun for bug hunters, new maintainers, etc.
<sivang> Treenaks : go to irc.gimp.net, join #gnome-love :)
* sivang always knew the ubuntu is going to follow the gnome love tradition :)
<Keybuk> ubuntu love involves groups of threes though
<Keybuk> much more fun
<ross> rofl
<ross> the ubuntu love circle
<ross> ewww, bad bad thoughts
<Burgundavia_> ttp://www.ntk.net/media/developers.mpg
<sivang> and they need to be from at least three different places in the world :)
<bob2> SPECIAL
<pitti> elmo: around somewhere?
* thom donates a new set of eyeballs to pitti
<pitti> elmo: I sent you a mail with the exception
<Keybuk>  * gimp-python depends on python (< 2.4)
<Keybuk> d'oh
<Keybuk>  * python-twisted depends on python (< 2.4)
<Kinnison> oops
* Keybuk scraps the "seb128 broke my gnome-panel" t-shirt order and gets "doko broke my upgrade" instead :p
<Kinnison> "Matthias Klose stole my apt-get upgrade"
* seb128 still wants a "No, I will *not* fix your panel" t-shirt!
<daniels> i want 'it's a bug in gtk' t-shirt
<Keybuk> "iz gtk bug"
<Kinnison> nonono
<daniels> '(*) Reassign to [seb128@canonical.com] '
<Kinnison> gtk_bug_set_assignment (GTK_BUG(foobar), GTK_BUG_OWNER_SEB128);
<elmo> pitti: okay, I've applied the mother of all disgusting hacky crap workarounds - please try amber again ?
<pitti> elmo: sure
<pitti> d'oh
<pitti> elmo: now I get a different exception
<sivang> people, what is DOAP? :) I don't recall antyhing about it on the morning sessions..:)
<thom> description of a project
<sivang> thom : nothing more? nothing related to bug tracking and/or revision control? 
<jdub_> sivang: google for it, you will end up at usefulinc
<ross> doap rules
<ross> jdub_: did i mention that burtonini serves doap files from inside the blog tree?
<ross> with a l33t pyblosxom plugin
<daniels> ill
<ross> which i'll sell to canonical for... a million dollars
<jdub_> ross: rad!
<jdub_> haha
<sivang> jdub_ : where there an official announcment regarding it?
<jdub_> sivang: it's not really an announcing kind of thing
<sivang> jdub_ : ah ok then :) how is your leg btw?
<ross> i hope eugenia does switch to doap
<jdub_> sivang: it's just a standard
<jdub_> sivang: good, the drugs *do* work
<Keybuk> http://www.cafepress.com/keybuk
<sivang> jdub_ : ah nice to hear, have you been to barcelona some more times since our last trip there? :) any nice photos?
<ross> oh oh i want seb to break my panel so i can wear cheap tat
<sivang> jdub_ : oh like SOAP :) silly me..
<robtaylor> hey.. whats the name of the guy working on baz-ng?
<Keybuk> Martin Pool
<robtaylor> is his proposal written up anywhere?
<Keybuk> no ide
<robtaylor> ah well =)
* Keybuk adds an even sillier t-shirt
<ross> ha
<doko> keybuk: at least for gimp-python I'd like to pass the t-shirt to lamont_r :-p
<ross> Keybuk: you've got to add a cockfosters tee
<Keybuk> OMG!  HOW DID I FORGET THAT?!
<ross> "I Opened A Cafepress Store And Forgot To Do A Cockfosters Shirt"
<daniels> Keybuk: don't forget the 'Is that in the midlands?' shirt
<ross> am i allowed to chop the ubuntu logo up?  i.e. just have the circle?
<ross> or will sabdfl kick my arse?
<jdub_> ross: send a trademark request to info
<jamesh> seb128: jrb says he's rolling a gnome-control-center tarball
<seb128> ok ...
<jdub_> ross: it's unlikely that you'd be allowed, though
<ross> bah
<ross> oh oh, prior usage
<ross> the web site favicon is the circle on it's own
<jdub_> not on ubuntu
<jdub_> canonical logo is a very similar circle (reversed) without the dots
<ross> ubuntu.com has a favicon, which is the circle on a white bg, for me
<jamesh> also, an third party wanting to chop up the logo is a bit different from Canonical producing derivatives
<ross> jamesh: in that case canonical should do the t-shirt design i want :)
<jamesh> ross: submit your idea to info@ then :)
<jdub_> ross: send the design, we're going to have a competition anyway
<jdub_> (the favicon totally has circles on it)
<jamesh> jdub_: I think ross was talking about "just the circles" as "without the text"
<ross> yeah
<ross> jdub_: info@ubuntu.com?
<jdub_> ross: jeff.waugh@canonical.com
<jdub_> i don't get info
<Keybuk> elmo: just for you ... http://www.cafepress.com/keybuk.15390259
<Kinnison> seb128: Would you prefer a new patch file, or an interdiff of the two packages for this replacement buttons diff?
<seb128> new patch
<Kinnison> okay
* Kinnison is just doing a full build to test
<seb128> Kinnison, feel free to upload if you want :)
<Kinnison> seb128: I'm not in the keyring
<Kinnison> seb128: And I like it that way
<seb128> Kinnison, ok, fine
<ross> jdub_: cafepress.com/burtonini
<daniels> heh!
<daniels> Earnings & Sales
<daniels> Potential commission: $0.00
<daniels> ($0.00 cleared, $0.00 pending) 
<daniels> YOU BASTARDS.
<ross> do you have tat too?
<daniels> yep
<ross> oh oh oh
<ross> i presume it's not /daniels
<Keybuk> not unless he has hidden talents
<daniels> ross: keep on guessing
<thom> fooishbar
<daniels> THOM WINS
<ross> that was my next guess
<azeem> lamont_r: can't you take out those uint16_t fixes from 50hurd.dpatch into a seperate patch at least? They look pretty generic to me and would cut down the size of the patch a fair bit
<lamont_r> the hurd patch needs to come in as a collection of smaller patches...  upstream considers them gratuitous changes, near as I can tell.
<lamont_r> and 2.12l-1 added even more stuff to 50hurd.dpatch. :-(
<lamont_r> like 90% of the agetty changes (leaving a comment and a couple includes there from my hacking, and removing all of the termio->termios change)
<lamont_r> ditto for xgethostname, although upstream hasn't looked at that to see what he thinks yet.
<lamont_r> I need to look at 10mount.dpatch and split that up some.  getblocks is ugly messy, and came in with the hurd patch (and is broken.)
* lamont_r is going to chat with jbailey next week about some other options for the patch...
<azeem> braindmg did the patch, btw, but he's away until next week
<azeem> lamont_r: ah, you mean you found more parts of the original hurd patch in other patches, and put them back into 50hurd for 2.12l-1?
<jdub_> ross: ahem. no attachment. :-)
<lamont_r> yeah
<ross> jdub_: use your imagination :)   sure i won't be sued for cropping the logo? :)
<lamont_r> there may be 1 or 2 parts that actually are in 2.12l upstream
<azeem> good start :)
<jdub_> ross: playing with trademarks is frowned upon ;)
<ross> ssh
<elmo> Keybuk: dude.  that rocks
<Keybuk> I thought you'd appreciate it
<elmo> what's with the OHMIGODMYEYES colour of the Are We There Yet one tho?
<Keybuk> you can only put one of each product on the cheapskate shop
<mooch> dudes, come to the 1st floor to see the thing...
<mooch> it is quite cool, and there is nobody here
<jdahlin> seb128: I hope pango 1.8.0 is in hoary
<mooch> although is already 30 min late
<seb128> jdahlin, not yet, fighint with other stuff
<jdahlin> seb128: man you're so slow. it's been out for a whole 30 minutes
<spotter> this url (in firefox) kills my gnome desktop
<spotter> http://www.jascoproducts.com/cgi-local/SoftCart.exe/online-store/scstore/go/2005_tech_glamcam.html?L+scstore+tjwj6461ff441244+1102678043
<spotter> weirdest thing
<spotter> also does it things in mozilla
<trulux> i'm going to make a talk in the Umeet about hardened debian
<trulux> the sunday, 20:00 gmt
<trulux> i would like to have some Ubuntu gcc packages ready for that day, so, doko, are you there?
#ubuntu-devel 2004-12-28
<ironwolf> python2.4-pyorbit is borked is appears.
* Treenaks --force-overwrote it
<Mithrandir> Treenaks: you forgot to actually attach my signed key. :P
<Treenaks> Mithrandir: hm..
* Treenaks blames evolution
<thom> Mithrandir: I blame intelligent design, personally
<sid77> hi
<Treenaks> hi
<bob2> mjg59: X seems to be very unhappy waking up on my laptop
<Treenaks> bob2: it's an X40 right?
<bob2> yup
<daniels> worksforme
<Treenaks> bob2: poke daniels ;)
<bob2> hah, his works fine
<Treenaks> bob2: he might be able to tell you how :0
<Treenaks> hey John Smith :)
<robtaylor> hey all. so, if i want to package something up for ubuntu (gaim-vv) should i just package it in debian unstable 1st? 
<sivang> robtaylor : why not packaging it in hoary?
<carlos> robtaylor: yeah, if you can, please package it for Debian first
* robtaylor freezes
<robtaylor> meh. someone give me more input
<Treenaks> robtaylor: well, get debian, build package :)
<robtaylor> carlos: on another matter, had chance to play with accessd yet?
<carlos> robtaylor: not yet, sorry
<carlos> I'm really busy with Rosetta atm
<robtaylor> ok i'm happy with the package for debian route.. (apart from the the month-long-new-package-must-be-evil wait)
<robtaylor> carlos: np :_
<Treenaks> robtaylor: just poke elmo :)
<robtaylor> Treenaks: that genereally doesnt seem to help much...
<Treenaks> robtaylor: poke him harder
<robtaylor> heh
<robtaylor> ok///
* robtaylor goes prepares ITP
<robtaylor> heh. if hoary has gaim-vv in core (and i can stabilise it) it will be posed to take over ervy cibercafe in the WORLD!
<Treenaks> robtaylor: wouldn't it be better to fold the changes back into gaim mainline?
<robtaylor> Treenaks: i think thats the long term plan.. though upstream seem a little, well, odd
<sivang> Does anybody know what was the big show yesterday? :)
* sivang heared all the mataro people talking about that..
<Treenaks> uh isn't the Big Show today?
<sivang> Treenaks, I'm sure not, lulu said she had to go to it last night :)
<Treenaks> sivang: hm
<sivang> http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/ConfAgenda
<sivang> read the "SHow" about line, for "Thursday night 16th December"
<Treenaks> "LinuxSpectacular" on the schedule
<Treenaks> www.xdeblas.com/linuxshow
<lifeless> that was last night
<lifeless> 7:30 in the ballroom
<Treenaks> lifeless: yes, that's what he said
<carlos> sivang: http://www.xdeblas.com/linuxshow/
<sivang> carlos : tnx, on to it now, tnx Treenaks :)
<sivang> boy it's slow to download the MPG...
<Treenaks> sivang: set up a torrent mirror :)
<carlos> sivang: it's hosted in a 128Kbps ADSL line
<carlos> so it's normal
<carlos> I have a bigger version here
<carlos> but don't think I could send you it
<sivang> carlos, no thanks alot anyways :) I would wait for it to download..
<sivang> carlos, hmm it won't download..Hmm I'll just wait for Xavier to have a mirror for it :)
<carlos> it does not work?
<sivang> does anyone know kiko's irc nick? :)
<carlos> sivang: kiko :-)
<sivang> carlos, :)
<cenerentola> kiko, :)
<elmo>  _* Opt python   python-fixed A fixed point math object for python [dummy package]                                              
<elmo>   _* Opt python   python-id3li id3lib wrapper for Python - dummy package                                                        
<elmo>   _* Opt python   python-mpz   Multiple-precision arithmetic support for Python (default version)                               
<elmo>   _* Opt python   python-pyxat module for manipulating filesystem extended attributes          
<elmo> doko: ubuntu-desktop depends on those and they appear to be br0k3n
<doko> python-fixed isn't built anymore, use the decimal type in 2.4. no packages depend on python-fixedpoint
<doko> python-mpz is removed.
<Kamion> if somebody updates the seeds, I can probably figure out how to change ubuntu-desktop
<doko> I'll look at the other two.
<sivang> anybody know if smurfix has changed his nick?
<Kamion> sivang: try /names
<Keybuk> thom: WIKI! :p
<Keybuk> please <g>
<cenerentola> sorry ppl but why isnt dsl connection included in network-admin?
<Treenaks> cenerentola: "DSL connection" is usually a network connection
<Treenaks> cenerentola: or you mean as an alias or with PPPoE or something?
<cenerentola> treenaks: yep sorry.. a FoM has an ethernet dsl modem with a dial up connection
<cenerentola> and i dont know how to help him
<Treenaks> cenerentola: make him run 'pppoeconfig' on the command line
<cenerentola> is it in the base installation or needs to be installed?
<Treenaks> I think it's in the base.. but I could be wrong
<cenerentola> treenaks: any gui in the future?
<Treenaks> cenerentola: it's a CLUI :)
<trulux> i'm back
<Treenaks> cenerentola: but I think it was discussed in a BOF that the PPPoE/PPPoA stuff would be in the network config thing
<cenerentola> it's true right..
<cenerentola> ok thank you
<trulux> lamont, ping
<trulux> doko, ping
<trulux> pitti, how's going the gcc stuff?
<trulux> i'm going to check out the sources right now
<trulux> and apply some patches
<lamont_r> trulux: it was decided at the security bof that SSP type stuff would best be done in a derrivative distribution
<lamont_r> which means that the main ubuntu-sources won't get the patch.
<trulux> lamont_r, so, tell me, i'm open for any thing in such terms
<lamont_r> the good news is that it was also announced at the conf (last saturday) that canonical is putting together tools to allow derrivitives to be easily managed, including merges, etc.
<trulux> lamont_r, i see, so, when do you think this could be started?
<trulux> i'm going to get a new server from a new sponsor and start re-organizing the project
<AndyFitz> could it be the upgrade to gtk2-2.6?
<AndyFitz> after logging in the desktop is frozen. the panels position is loaded but no widgets displayed  nautilus doesnt draw icons or the desktop either
<AndyFitz> but the mouse works fine   it just cant do anything 
<AndyFitz>  I mean interact with anything because all else failed to load
<Treenaks> could it be something sound-related?
<bob2> AndyFitz: dows killing X and logging in again fix it?
<AndyFitz> negatory
<AndyFitz> I'm using hoary and believe it was caused by updating within the last 20 mins
<AndyFitz> anyone else experiencing this ?
* Treenaks didn't update in the last 20 minutes, and is now afraid to try
<AndyFitz> I'm updating this machine and seeing if the same error occurs 
<AndyFitz> although if it is gtk2-2.6.0 then I'm really stuffed because xfce4 wont work  and not just gnome
<trulux> lamont, ?
<AndyFitz> o wait xfce ads fine on the affected machine 
<AndyFitz>  ads = loads     when keyboard is taken out of range 
<daniels> elmo: http://www.cafepress.com/cp/prod.aspx?p=fooishbar.15391134
<fabbione> Mithrandir: ping
<Mithrandir> pong
<AndyFitz> nautilus seems to work fine under xfce also..  its a gnome issue but not a config one  ( other accounts log in with the same issue )
<fabbione> Mithrandir: ooo fails on sparc64 due to the MANIFEST
<Mithrandir> hm, weird.
<fabbione> Mithrandir: mind to fix it please?
<Mithrandir> prod haggai about it?
<fabbione> Mithrandir: i am not sure if it is related to ubuntu changes...
<Mithrandir> it is, I can take a look, sure.
<Mithrandir> I'm sure people will _love_ me for uploading ooo once a week
<fabbione> it would take me another 18 hours to do a test build
<fabbione> Mithrandir: nahh it can wait
<fabbione> i don't need it right away
<fabbione> we know that it can build.. that's the important part
<Mithrandir> I'm travelling to Oslo tomorrow, but possibly on sunday.
<Mithrandir> though, in Oslo, my bandwidth is _sucky_.
<fabbione> even in 2 weeks from now
<fabbione> don't get crazy
<fabbione> it's the only package missing together with strace
<AndyFitz> okay going to logout / in with this now that changes have been made . if something mucks up ill be able to identify the trouble package 
<daniels> Keybuk: http://www.cafepress.com/cp/prod.aspx?p=fooishbar.15425417
<Treenaks> what's up with the cafepress-meme?
<Treenaks> daniels: don't forget the ever-popular "CRACK!!!"
<Kamion> well, I just bought mjg59's "debian-legal stole my DFSG" baseball jersey, so ...
<AndyFitz> cant be a package problem 
<Treenaks> why?
<AndyFitz> because this computer loaded gnome fine 
<AndyFitz> after updating 
<fabbione> -> #ubuntu
<AndyFitz> but I have no idea what else I did to affect the system
<Treenaks> some python2.4 cruft maybe?
<Keybuk> http://www.cafepress.com/keybuk.15425670
<Keybuk> ^ completed T-Shirt :p
<fabbione> guys please move problem solving to #ubuntu
<lamont_r> trulux: I'm not on that team, but I expect it's not too far away
<Mithrandir> Keybuk: I'm sure thom appreciates that
<Keybuk> Mithrandir: he hasn't thrown anything particularly heavy at me yet
<Keybuk> he is bright red however
<mjg59> You're all just ripping off my designs
<Burgundavia_> I might have to go buy that
<mjg59> You bastards
<Mithrandir> perhaps he doesn't have anything handy?
<Treenaks> mjg59: your designs? link!
<fabbione> mjg59: how safe is the patch to put ppc to sleep?
<daniels> elmo: http://www.cafepress.com/cp/prod.aspx?p=fooishbar.15425905
<mjg59> Treenaks: http://www.cafepress.com/mjg59
<mjg59> fabbione: No idea
<fabbione> mjg59: someone was asking for inclusion
<fabbione> afaik the patch is from benh
<mjg59> fabbione: It's probably worth it
<mjg59> Check with benh, though, if you can
<fabbione> yaeh that's an option
<bob2> it was me asking for it
<Kamion> benh is capable of submitting it upstream, so I wouldn't include it until he's got it upstream
<bob2> benh seems pretty happy with it atm
<Kamion> personally
<AndyFitz> hopefully later tonight ill put the icon set shown here http://andy.fitzsimon.com.au/icons.png
<AndyFitz> on this site  for download http://www.brisgeek.com/etiquette/  :)
<Treenaks> fabbione: slick!
<Treenaks> uh
<Treenaks> AndyFitz: slick!
<AndyFitz> cheers
<fabbione> Kamion: i tend to agree, but sometims upstream can be slow
<Kamion> doesn't have to be released ... just in bitkeeper IMHO
<Kamion> *shrug* dunno
<fabbione> eheh
<fabbione> i will give it a spin
<fabbione> at the end 2.6.10 won't be default at the first shot
<fabbione> we can back it out
<fabbione> bob2: mind to either open a bug or send me the patch?
<Kamion> oh, that's true, if it's just in the crack-of-the-day build ...
<fabbione> bob2: just be sure the bug is assigned to me
* thom ponders revenge
* Kamion withdraws objection
<bob2> fabbione: will do
<fabbione> bob2: danke
<Keybuk> heh, let me guess danw
<Treenaks> Keybuk: where's your < Keybuk> # .la, a note to follow .so
<Treenaks> Keybuk: shirt
<Keybuk> Treenaks: that's not especially amusing, given it *is* the reason they're called that
<thom> Keybuk: i'm thinking about it :-)
<Treenaks> Keybuk: it is? it's not accidental?
<Keybuk> I'd buy it :p
<Keybuk> Treenaks: not that I'm aware
<Keybuk> entirely deliberate
<Treenaks> Keybuk: scary
<bob2> fabbione: on which package?
<fabbione> linux
<azeem> whoa, the LWN article on Launchpad makes you think Soyuz is a new, non-free, package manager like e.g. dpkg
<trulux> lamont_r, great
<trulux> pitti, hi?
<pitti> trulux: hi
<Keybuk> it's more like a google for distrbution data
<jdub> azeem: yeah, that was kinda bong
<daniels> Dec 17 15:03:14 catsby kernel: Out of Memory: Killed process 27723 (gimp).
<fabbione> nice
<trulux> pitti, i'm talking to lamount about hardened debian, what opinion do you have by now?
<daniels> d'oh
<pitti> trulux: moment, pleaswe
<fabbione> daniels: you need to stop watching pr0n on all your 40 virtual desktop when using gimp
<trulux> pitti, ok
<Keybuk> thom: http://www.cafepress.com/assbarn.1858121
<pitti> trulux: we now have kernel support for SELinux, might bring SSP gcc packages into universe and I will provide a PaX kernel soon
<pitti> trulux: ping me back in 15 minutes, I have to disconnect 
<trulux> pitti, sure
<trulux> pitti, i'm doing a selinux backport for 2.4
<trulux> latest stuff
<fabbione> i doubt we will ever support 2.4
<bob2> fabbione: #4759
<azeem> so is there a reason why LaunchPad will not be open source (initially), or is the LWN story inaccurate in this regard?
<Kamion> trulux: we recently *dropped* support for 2.4
<trulux> Kamion, i see, yeah
<thom> did i mention i hate you all?
<Treenaks> thom: ALL?
<thom> every single one of you
<Treenaks> thom: any particular reason?
<jamesh> Treenaks: http://www.cafepress.com/keybuk.15425670
<Treenaks> jamesh: that's not a reason to hate :)
<trulux> pitti, long 15 minutes past
<pitti> lifeless: pmount 0.4.4 (umask 077) is in Ubuntu. Please cry out loud if your ssh stuff still does not work
<pitti> trulux: hi
<pitti> trulux: btw, do you know how one can detect whether a given binary was built using SSP?
<lifeless> pitti: thanks!
<Treenaks> hm.. python-serial needs a recompile I think
<thom> amu: disk copy is done
<daniels> thom: are you smouldering with generic rage?
<thom> amu: and unmounted
<thom> daniels: careful
<Mithrandir> thom: bite!  bite!
<Treenaks> Canonical Deathmatch?
<amu> thom: thx
<trulux> pitti, sure
<trulux> pitti, strings binary | grep guard or libssp or stack_smash_handler
<pitti> trulux: cool; thanks
<trulux> now i must go for lunch, no food since 8am
* trulux said this on another channel so, it's really a problem
<trulux> ;P
<robtaylor> Kinnison: any idea how many of you lot over there will be coming on monday?
<pitti> mako: http://people.ubuntu.com/~pitti/langpack/
<Treenaks> pitti: Binary: language-support-ca, language-support-de
<Treenaks> pitti: wheres -nl? :)
<Treenaks> pitti: what do I have to do to make you add it?
<pitti> Treenaks: it's a _demo_ package
<pitti> Treenaks: nothing, I will add each and every language once the support is there
<Treenaks> pitti: oh cool
<jdub> doko: ping?
<daniels> http://www.theage.com.au/news/Film/Iraq--coming-to-a-screen-near-you/2004/12/17/1102787272392.html
<Mithrandir> daniels: I wonder if they'll have a scene where a marine kills an unarmed and wounded person lying in a mosque.
<Treenaks> Mithrandir: that'll be in the Director's Cut
<trulux> pitti, how long is to being an ubuntu developer?
<trulux> is it like debian timings? *shrug*
<pitti> trulux: no, we have a totally different and much quicker approach :-)
<pitti> trulux: the short-short story is: find an UD to work with, prove that you have the skills and introduce yourselves to the developers and the community
<pitti> trulux: however, such decisions are taken by the Community Council
<trulux> pitti, then let me know who wants to handle my admission
<trulux> ;-)
<pitti> trulux: just start doing something, make your name recognized on the mailing lists and the IRC channel
<pitti> trulux: doing an actual upload can be done by an existing UD, and it should be easy to find one
<pitti> trulux: much like Debian Sponsoring
<trulux> pitti, kay
<pitti> trulux: for example, are you interested in preparing gcc SSP packages for Ubuntu universe?
<trulux> pitti, yes
<trulux> Warty and hoary
<trulux> i have both
<pitti> trulux: this would really rock
<pitti> trulux: not Warty
<trulux> Hoary then
<pitti> trulux: Hoary only, we will not change anything in Warty
<trulux> ok
<trulux> let me chroot Hoary
<trulux> ;-)
<pitti> trulux: we probably won't use SSP for Hoary, it needs some extensive testing
<pitti> trulux: but it would be great to play with this and make it easy for other people to try out
<pitti> trulux: since OpenBSD and gentoo use it as well, it cannot be so broken
<pitti> trulux: our biggest concern is the supportability
<trulux> pitti, yeah, listen
<pitti> trulux: if there is a big chance that this will not be integrated into gcc4, then we lose
<trulux> SSP overhead is minimal, impact when our libssp is used is also minimal
<trulux> pitti, it will be, i know it by Etoh
<pitti> I know, the runtime costs should be negligible
<pitti> trulux: it will be adopted upstream? eventually? 
<trulux> SSP also does not make conflicts because we can make it only *legitimate* enabled, meaning we would enabled it when we would like to use it
<trulux> pitti, dunno, but maybe
<pitti> trulux: cool
<trulux> i know some people on the FSF ,  even inside the core devel teams, so, i hope i can try to move things+
<pitti> trulux: so if you prepare hoary packages, they should probably be called gcc-ssp or so
<trulux> but nothing assured
<trulux> pitti, umm, i think they would be called .hardened
<trulux> gcc-version.hardened
<pitti> hmm
<pitti> I'd prefer -ssp, though
<trulux> -hardened because it would have more than just SSP
<trulux> PIE for example
<pitti> anyway, the name is not that important for now
<trulux> yeah
<pitti> what's PIE?
<trulux> Position Independent Executables
<pitti> ah
<pitti> I thought that was called -fpic?
<trulux> makes us able to get benefit of memory address space layout randomization
<pitti> like PaX?
<trulux> yeah
<pitti> cool
<pitti> I proposed to put a PaX kernel into our universe soon
<trulux> in the time i have worked with it, i have know a config that is not invassive, it's smooth and works fine on debian-based envs
<trulux> pitti, i would help with that
<pitti> ssp and PaX together provide a good protection against buffer overflow exploits
<trulux> not only that, also to many other things
<pitti> trulux: does X.org still break with PaX?
<trulux> dunno really, i think that was XFree, XOrg is pax-friendly AFAIK
<pitti> trulux: I remember that older XFree versions did not play well with pax
<pitti> well, I'll try that out
<daniels> you break it, you get to keep both pieces :P
<mvo> thanks Keybuk !
<trulux> pitti, can you upload my pkgs after i build them?
<pitti> trulux: sure
<trulux> pitti, thanks ;D
<pitti> trulux: cool, I'm looking forward to playing around with it
<trulux> pitti, maybe an Ubuntu-Hardened Debian alliance should be created, i was promoting such alliances between hardened gentoo, adamantix and debhard
<trulux> tseng, right? :)
<trulux> pitti:
<trulux> root@estila:/# apt-get install dpkg-dev debnest
<trulux> Leyendo lista de paquetes... Hecho
<trulux> Creando rbol de dependencias... Hecho
<trulux> i'm getting the devel tools
<trulux> ready
<trulux> pitti, i hope i will work on the collision rts and let this get the toolchain sources
<trulux> kay?
<pitti> sure, thanks
<trulux> also, we must provide a special binutils package
<trulux> we need the kernel.org version
<pitti> trulux: is it specific for SSP, or has it some general modifications which also allow SSP?
<trulux> the binutils one? is for native PaX marking support
<trulux> PT_PAX_FLAGS
<pitti> ah, that one
<trulux> i have a work that maybe you can do, as i'm not able to figure how to do it
<trulux> packaging the libssp as debian pkg
<trulux> i couldn't do it
<pitti> trulux: what makes it difficult?
<trulux> my (un)experience on packaging libraries that need to be installed in some different locations
<pitti> trulux: hmm, I can do that
<trulux> ok
<trulux> pitti, give me an address to send you the tarball
<trulux> it's light
<pitti> libssp?
<pitti> trulux: martin.pitt@canonical.com
<pitti> trulux: if it is bigger than 100 KB, then please put it onto people.d.o or so
<pitti> trulux: or, rather
<pitti> trulux: can you just send me the upstream URL?
<trulux> i'm the upstream
* trulux smiles
<pitti> oooohkay
<pitti> trulux: what does this lib do?
<trulux> pitti, implements SSP as shared lib
<trulux> no more crappy behaviors nor strange errors
<pitti> trulux: you mean the functions that generate and check canaries?
<trulux> yep
<trulux> ssp.c
<pitti> trulux: and previous versions did this with macros?
<trulux> it provides backward compatibility with Glibc version
<trulux> just that
<trulux> it was an original idea of some gentoo devs
<jamesh> because what the world needs is more shared libraries
<jamesh> to be more exact, more shared libraries that might end up being linked to every application
<trulux> pitti, sorry, my evo did something stupid and tarball is not included, resending
<trulux> pitti, sent
<pitti> trulux: got it, thanks
<trulux> ok
<trulux> pitti, then i will start playing around gcc
<trulux> gcc-3.3 or gcc-3.4?
<trulux> what one do you want with SSP & PIE
<pitti> I don't really mind
<pitti> in the end we should be able to provide both
<pitti> but for playing around either is fine
<trulux> then 3.4
<mooch> thom may?
<mooch> anyone knows his nick?
<pitti> mooch: thom is the correct one
<mooch> thom: ping
<daniels> mooch: he's not here at the moment
<da_bon_bon> hi all i am having major problem
<da_bon_bon> can anyone help me, please?
<da_bon_bon>  i installed ubuntu, and entered username as "rohandhruva" and a password, but whenever i enter it in newly installed sysytem, after entering password, it again asks for username
<Kinnison> try "rohandhr" as your username
<Kinnison> It may be truncating to 8 characters
<trulux> doko, i'm starting a hardened gcc-3.4 packages for hoary
<da_bon_bon> hi, i need some help, can anyonr help me?
<trulux> i will change the pkgs names but i need some help on creating the right configuration for them, i mean, they must not conflict with gcc-3.4 ones
<trulux> we need a gentoo-alike gcc profile changer
<trulux> or even different named gcc packages
<da_bon_bon> i installed ubuntu, chose username "rohandhruva" and a password, but now thats not accpeted, after entering password, i again am returned to username prompt
<daniels> trulux: er
<daniels> ii  gcc-3.3                   3.3.5-4                   The GNU C compiler
<daniels> ii  gcc-3.4                   3.4.3-2ubuntu1            The GNU C compiler
<trulux> daniels, i just appended -hardened to version
<trulux> name is not important by now
<Kinnison> da_bon_bon: try "rohandhr" as your username
<daniels> trulux: well, we have differently-named gcc packages
<trulux> daniels, i'm just following what pitti said, but tell me about them
<trulux> i'm new in Ubuntu development
<daniels> trulux: gcc-2.95 ... gcc-3.2 ... gcc-3.3 ... gcc-3.4 ...
<trulux> yeah
<mooch> ping
<mooch> there is an error in the wiki web page
<mooch> System Message: ERROR/3 (<string>, line 3)
<mooch> Document or section may not begin with a transition.
<mooch> ubuntulinux.com/wiki
<mooch> at the bottom
<Kamion> it's a wiki, you can fix it ... :)
<mooch> Kamion: i believe is more a code problem...
<mooch> gotta go
<Kamion> mooch: well, there's junk at the end of the page
<Kamion> mooch: deleting it solved the problem
<douglas> hi !
<douglas> where i can report a pygtk error ?
<douglas> im using ubuntu hoary
* HcE reported his first bug _with_ correcting patch today =)
<Kamion> bugzilla; but note that an upload happened just recently to fix a pygtk problem
<mgedmin> mooch: that's the way docutils tells you about incorrect reStructuredText markup
<douglas> hey Kamion
<douglas> you right
<douglas> i updated ubuntu and it worked
<douglas> thanks :)
<gsuveg> re
<Simira> I just *love* the new menus in hoary Gnome!
<Treenaks> Simira: seb128 isn't here to receive your love :)
<Simira> oh, shame... well, I'll get him later :)
<Simira> I didn't like the last one at all...
<Treenaks> "the last one"?
<Simira> the messy one :p menu setup, that is
<Treenaks> ah ok
<sivang> Simira, new menus?
<sivang> which ones?
<Treenaks> Simira: the applications/places/system ones I think
<Simira> sivang: in hoary, Apps;Places;System
<sivang> Simira, can't see them..
<sivang> strange.
<sivang> maybe I have to logout the gnome session :)
<Simira> sivang: last update, though. Made today.
<Simira> or someth
<Treenaks> sivang: update to the latest hoary, and if you're running a stock kernel, reboot
<Treenaks> sivang: that should take care of it :)
<sivang> Simira, were there any discussin before the layout change? or is it a debian upstream change?
<Simira> sivang: quite a lot of discussions, I believe. I really like the result, anyway
<sivang> Simira, where was it? devel mailing list?
<Simira> sivang: not sure, I didn't read it ;p
<Simira> *plays with hoary*
<Fwiffo_> sivang: there were some discussion on the devel list
<Qerub> Anyone file like uploading a PO template of gnome-panel to Rosetta?
<Simira> crap!
<Simira> where can I find a downloadable dicionary for translation?
#ubuntu-devel 2004-12-29
<usual> hi
<bluefoxicy> Can the Ubuntu USNs be categorized and if possible quantified?
<bluefoxicy> I have been keeping up categorization on https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/JohnMoser and doing proper calculations to ratioize them
<bluefoxicy> but I can't quantify them, because some are "Multiple vulnerabilities" with no exact numbers and type
<bluefoxicy> it would, hovewer, be interesting to have data available to graph security flaws
<bluefoxicy> It would also be potentially useful.  You may notice that 40% of the USNs involve buffer overflows (not counting kernel overflows), and 20% involve temp file races.  This gives insight on where focus should be placed
* netjoined: irc.freenode.net -> zelazny.freenode.net
* netjoined: irc.freenode.net -> zelazny.freenode.net
* netjoined: irc.freenode.net -> zelazny.freenode.net
* netjoined: irc.freenode.net -> zelazny.freenode.net
* justdave tries to avoid making a rude comment on bug 4775
<bronson> Can anybody tell me why lemon isn't in Universe or Multiverse?
<Treenaks> lemon?
<bronson> http://packages.debian.org/unstable/devel/lemon
<bronson> It's great.
<bronson> Beats the heck out of yacc.
<bronson> This is the first time I've seen a Debian package excluded from Ubuntu's feeds.
<bronson> I figure there's got to be a reason, right?
<Treenaks> \how new is it
<bronson> not new
<bronson> I take that back.
<bronson> Looks like Oct 2004?  Maybe Nov.
<Treenaks> could be after the "original" import of sid, just after Warty's release
<Treenaks> just submit a bug requesting this package and all should be well
<bronson> okeedokey.  thanks.
<bronson> Why is Supermirror a Ubuntu product?
<bronson> At least that's what Ubuntu's bugzilla claims.
<Treenaks> it's a canonical project
<bronson> That's interesting.  Did you guys hire James Blackwell?
<Treenaks> he has a canonical.com email address, so I think so
<bronson> interesting.
* Treenaks isn't from canonical
<bronson> Well, you sound like you are.  (that's a compliment if it's not clear  :)
<Treenaks> :)
<bronson> OK, it's bug 4777.
<trulux> pi
* sladen wonders if anyone is left in Mataro
<trulux> anybody knows when pitti gets online?
<Treenaks> trulux: mail him?
<Treenaks> trulux: He should be awake by now (it's 13:30 in germany)
<Treenaks> oh wait
<Treenaks> today is "Fly back day" from the conference
<trulux> Treenaks, i've just built the hardened-gcc pkgs for hoary
<trulux> i need a good specs hacker btw
<Kyaneos> hi
<trulux> as i'm a nut writing gcc specs
<trulux> hi ky
<amu> trulux: he leaves BCN at 14:15
<Kyaneos> i have a problem with nvidia and hoary
<trulux> amu, thanks, then i mail him
<Kyaneos> the xorg server sais the module version is not the same that the kernel nvidia version
<Kyaneos> can nobody help me please?
<trulux> Kyaneos, then get the nvidia module sources and recompile it
<trulux> maybe it's an update problem, dunno
<Kyaneos> in deb format??
<sjoerd> Kyaneos: this is #ubuntu stuff btw 
<trulux> sjoerd, right
* sjoerd wonders if the proprietary nv driver even works with xorg
<trulux> heh
<Kyaneos> thank you very much
<trulux> Kyaneos, to recompile the nvidia module just apt-get install nvidia-kernel-source
<trulux> and cd into its directory
<Kyaneos> and sorry for my poor english
<amu> Kyaneos: see http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/BinaryDriverHowto/
<Kyaneos> trulux, and what more?
<trulux> just do make in src dir
<trulux> and then cpy manually the .ko in /lib/modules/your2.6kernel/drivers/(subdir or whatever you like, it should be inside char i think)
<trulux> after that just run depmod -ae
<trulux> and modprobe nvidia
<Kyaneos> trulux, have i write nvidia in /etc/modules???
<trulux> is here any SELinux guy able to test a pre patch?
<trulux> Kyaneos, right
<Kyaneos> ok
<Kyaneos> thank you very much
<trulux> you're welcome, but next time try to ask *first* in #ubuntu
<Kyaneos> i ask here because the problem is hoary, but next time i do what you say
<trulux> ok,you don't need to sorry, it's not a big crime (by now ...)
<trulux> ;P
<Kyaneos> xD
<Kyaneos> trulux, what is the directory??
<Kyaneos> please
<trulux> it should be on /usr/src/
<Kyaneos> have i untar it??
<trulux> yes
<Kyaneos> *** Unable to determine the target kernel version. ***
<Kyaneos> make: *** [select_makefile]  Error 1
<Kyaneos> root@nabucodonosor:/usr/src/modules/nvidia-kernel/nv #
<trulux> nvidia-kernel-source.tar.gz
<Kyaneos> yes
<Kyaneos> i had utared it
<Kyaneos> and i had enter the directory
<trulux> lorenzo@estila:~/kernel/selinux/linux-2.4.28-selinux/security/selinux $ ls /usr/src/modules/nvidia-kernel/nv/
<Kyaneos> trulux, are you Spanish?
<trulux> read the file which says READ ME!
<trulux> yes
<Kyaneos> jue
<Kyaneos> y yo aqu chapurreando ingls
<Kyaneos> xDD
<trulux> Kyaneos, just for respect others in the channel, talk in english
<sjoerd> Kyaneos: maybe there is an ubuntu-es if you want spanish support :)
<trulux> most of the people can not understand us talking in Spanish and sure you can lost the possibility of gathering attention from someone who wants to help you
<Kyaneos> this problem with the nvidia driver only can be solved on this mode??
<trulux> sjoerd, that's the point
<Kyaneos> ok ok
<trulux> Kyaneos, yes
<sjoerd> trulux: there isn't one ? 
<Kyaneos> can it be solved with an apt-get dist-upgrade in future time??
<trulux> sjoerd, no idea, i don't use them so often, i prefer devel channels before support ones which are many times mad houses
<trulux> Kyaneos, dunno, we are talking about a ko, kernel module, which needs to be copied manually
<trulux> so, possibly you will get it dumped out when updating the kernel pkgs
<Kyaneos> i did not need to copy it manually before
<trulux> dunno, just check if it builds the fscking deb pkg
<trulux> debuild
<trulux> run it on top dir
<Kyaneos> in /?
<trulux> top dir means top dir of nvidia-kernel-source
<trulux> not root
<Kyaneos> ok
<Kyaneos> but i do not want to create a deb file
* trulux shrugs
<Kyaneos> i have not this command
<trulux> Kyaneos, i'm moving to #ubuntu, wanna help you there if you want
<Kyaneos> thx
<ferryh> hi all, would it be possible to upgrade to hoary now with all that python stuff going on?
<trukulo> fabbione, u there?
<Qerub> Anyone file like uploading a PO template of gnome-panel to Rosetta?
<Treenaks> try #launchpad
<sladen> or #rosetta
<Treenaks> sladen: oh that exists?
* Treenaks watches his other (166MHz) laptop struggle to install ubuntu
<Treenaks> no DMA on harddisks = baaaad
<gsuveg> re
<Treenaks> wb?
<gsuveg> ?
<Treenaks> wb mako
<trulux> is james troup here?
<Treenaks> trulux: he's away
<trulux> what's his nick
<Treenaks> elmo_away :)
<trulux> i've reported a bug report for binutils about a security enhancement for hoary
<Treenaks> enhancement or bug?
<trulux> enhancement
<Treenaks> what kind?
<trulux> PT_PAX_FLAGS marking support
<trulux> bluefoxicy, hey, i'm talking about the pt_pax_flags patch for binutils
<trulux> Treenaks, let me show you the link to the report with the details
<Treenaks> I'm a binutils noob, what is it? :)
<bluefoxicy> I think I should move most of the contents of my personal wiki entry to another page on the wiki.  The entry is https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/JohnMoser and is mostly an analysis of the USNs and the classes of bugs/exploits they show, and how to prevent future incident
<bluefoxicy> any suggestions for an entry to move this data to?
<Treenaks> bluefoxicy: https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/USNAnalysis ?
<trulux> Treenaks, it adds native support for PaX flags marking on binaries, -z relro option and softmode support
<Treenaks> </stupididea> :)
<Treenaks> trulux: ok, but what's PaX? like NX?
<bluefoxicy> Treenaks:  Binutils is gas and ld.  A modified binutils will spit out binaries with a PT_PAX_FLAGS header so that paxctl can use a proper field to do its job
<bluefoxicy> Treenaks: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PaX
<trulux> bluefoxicy, you forget that it enableds native support for soft mode
<bluefoxicy> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NX_bit#Functional_comparison_of_technologies  comparison of PaX vs ES
<bluefoxicy> trulux:  ah yes, important if you want to go for the perfect-compatibility route, which I don't really suggest
<Treenaks> ah, so PaX uses NX if it's available :)
<trulux> Treenaks, it uses anyway
<trulux> but it can emulate it per-page
<bluefoxicy> (very few things actually break because of PaX, and they can all be marked and/or fixed.  It's worth more to force those vendors to mark/fix their code than to leave us open to attacks on ALL 3rd party software)
<trulux> or use hardware support
<Treenaks> trulux: yes, but with the hardware bit it's faster
<trulux> of course
<bluefoxicy> Treenaks:  slightly :)
<trulux> ;D
<Treenaks> bluefoxicy: hey at least it's not slower with the bit than without ;)
<bluefoxicy> 0.7% just about with SEGMEXEC emulation, versus 0.0% with NX bit in hardware
<trulux> btw, any guy here playing around SELinux?
<trulux> any good kernel hacker also?
* trulux is backporting selinux to 2.4
<Treenaks> trulux: why? why not make the 2.6 one work on the machine you use 2.4 on?
<trulux> Treenaks, think on this: most enterpriuses still use 2.4 because it's more stable, migration to 2.6 when using special stuff is painful, development for 2.6 requires full time attention to source changes, etc
<trulux> also because you don't need to move to 2.6 if you don't use SMP with more than 4 CPU
<Treenaks> yet
<trulux> i've talked about this with sarnold from Immunix and we think it's worthy, so, i do it
<Treenaks> one day 2.4 will be unsupported :)
<trulux> Treenaks, as 2.2?
* trulux grins
<Treenaks> and 2.0, and 1.3
<trulux> one day we wouldn't exist
<Treenaks> try finding a shop still running 1.3
<trulux> ;)
<trulux> 2.4 will get unsupported after 2.7 gets started and that wouldn't happen in a reasonable time manner
<trulux> Amen.
<trulux> ;-)
<bluefoxicy> there.  https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/USNAnalysis created.
<gsuveg> can i ask from (me importan) features ?
<bluefoxicy> ?
<gsuveg> can i use pptp with ppp_mppe_mppc
<gsuveg> ?
<trulux> bluefoxicy, just listening to NY radio
<trulux> pure fun
<trulux> a girl talking "ever++"
* trulux nods
<Treenaks> gsuveg: what are those? kernel modules?
<gsuveg> Treenaks: yes. kernel module for ms vpn
<gsuveg> pptpclient
<gsuveg> hmm?
<Treenaks> gsuveg: are they not included in ubuntu?
<Treenaks> (you might want to move to #ubuntu if they are -- this is not really a "support" channel)
<gsuveg> Treenaks: now idont use ubuntu - im actualy under gentoo
<Treenaks> gsuveg: hmm. OK :) well what's with the kernel modules?
<gsuveg> but my new asus notebook works better with ubuntu
<gsuveg> i this help, im registered in rosetta ;)
<gsuveg> Treenaks: pptpclient is in ubuntu repo ?
<Treenaks> gsuveg: pptp-linux - Point-to-Point Tunneling Protocol (PPTP) Client
<gsuveg> Treenaks: thanks
<Treenaks> the mpppe kernel modules are as well
<Treenaks> uh mppe
<gsuveg> cool
<gsuveg> thanks
<gsuveg> jdk ?
<gsuveg> maybe can i see packages list ?
<Treenaks> jdk is not included by default, but a good howto is on the wiki (http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/)
<Treenaks> there is no simple web-based package-list yet, but you can assume most Debian software (at least) is in there
<gsuveg> how many packages in repo ?
<gsuveg> i dont use debian years ago
<Treenaks> gsuveg: try packages.debian.org
<Treenaks> tenthousands :)
<trulux> Treenaks, without counting unofficial ones
<trulux> and hardened debian ones which are a good couple
* trulux feeds the ego
<trulux> bluefoxicy, ;-)
<gsuveg> Treenaks: good. thats avaliably in ubuntu repo ?
<gsuveg> le
<Treenaks> gsuveg: most are, only the really weird ones, and those that didn't build aren't available
<gsuveg> good
<gsuveg> Treenaks: then the next: im start translate in rosetta
<gsuveg> yesterday im made a small part
<gsuveg> the installer come from debian ?
<Treenaks> gsuveg: yes, everything comes from debian
<gsuveg> Treenaks: then, ub. is fork, or next releases uses debian codes ?
<trulux> btw, who manages the ubuntu planet?
<AndyFitz> any aussies awake ?
<AndyFitz> I very much doubt it. :P   ah wells .  looks like I'll be going to linuxconf.au
<bluefoxicy> hmm
<bluefoxicy> hey
<bluefoxicy> blackdown-jdk (and every other jre/jdk) isn't in debian or ubuntu is it
<bluefoxicy> this leaves both without any control over 'em
<bluefoxicy> hr.
<bluefoxicy> First deployment of PaX is 100% guaranteed to break Java
<bluefoxicy> maybe it'll be enough of a boot to the head to get blackdown/sun/IBM to use chpax at least to mark 'em (if not rebuild with PT_PAX_FLAGS and mark with paxctl)
<trulux> bluefoxicy, you didn't read my whitepaper about debian hardening....
<bluefoxicy> trulux:  nope
<bluefoxicy> you had one?
<trulux> flags for Java related binaries are known and java works well with them
<bluefoxicy> yes
<trulux> bluefoxicy, of course
<trulux> 42 pages
<trulux> unfinished
<bluefoxicy> but I mean, if the binaries come pre-marked
<bluefoxicy> and aren't post-marked from a database
<trulux> yeah, i'm building a database
<bluefoxicy> then we're only concerned with what's in ubuntu/debian's world
<trulux> but don't say it, it's secret ;D
* trulux nods
<bluefoxicy> which doesn't include java :P
<trulux> ;D
<bluefoxicy> personally I think a kick in the head will be good for the third party packagers
<trulux> or in the ass
<bluefoxicy> they might actually wake up and figure out that something's different :P
<trulux> a bloody ass makes wonderful things
<bluefoxicy> heh
<trulux> bluefoxicy, anyway is our responsability to get them in the rid <- this sounds worst than any other thing i've heard on an irc channel
<bluefoxicy> o.o
<bluefoxicy> heh
* AndyFitz heads for a very drunken sleep. awaiting a very hung over morning
<trulux> bluefoxicy, btw, still using hardened gentoo?
<trulux> pitti, hey!!
<pitti> hi trulux
<trulux> is it pitti is it really? it's pitti!
<trulux> ;D
<pitti> night
<trulux> pitti, i've uploaded the hoary gcc pkgs
<trulux> tested also
<pitti> later, please
<trulux> work fast and smooth
<trulux> pitti, kay
<sjoerd> trulux: he is pretending to be tired ;)
<trulux> sjoerd, heh
<trulux> sjoerd, for test the security of the forthcoming changes i'm finishing a regression test suite
<trulux> we will be able to see what's failing in security terms with the new packages
<bluefoxicy> trulux:  yes, still on hardened gentoo amd64
* bluefoxicy hooks up a new monitor
<trulux> bluefoxicy, why?
<bluefoxicy> ahh fucking bright
* bluefoxicy has gamma 1.8
* bluefoxicy restarts X
<trulux> heh
#ubuntu-devel 2004-12-30
<Mitario> hi guys
<erich> Why is libgtk2.0-dev in ubuntu that big (installed size 25 MB bigger than in debian) - does it include libgtk2.0-doc?
<erich> Argh... I just installed xserver-xorg from ubuntu - and hit a broken package.
<erich> all the modules are .a files instead of .so files.
<bitserf> erich: i'm not sure, isn't .a what its supposed to be? istr murmurings about modules with non-stable ABI being .a, and stable being .so
<erich> bitserf: yes. and according to a strace Xorg searches for .so files in its modules directorys, but there are only .a files. a downgrade of the xserver-xorg package helped.
<erich> try upgrading to latest hoary and then try to start a new x server
<erich> but DRI just locked up my machine. i'll retest that.
<bitserf> erich: i think the problem is with the 028_loader_speed_hack patch...trying to rebuild myself without it atm
<bitserf> erich: i think the problem is with the 028_loader_speed_hack patch...trying to rebuild myself without it atm...i'm not sure what the correct fix would be as i've no clue of the intention daniels/fabbione have for it :)
<erich> maybe its just incomplete.
<bitserf> i lost my previous xorg package due to overzealously running apt-get clean 
<erich> you can get the previous from archive.ubuntulinux.org
<bitserf> excellent, i was wondering if such a resource existed, thanks
<erich> apparently they modified Xorg so it searches for .so files, but they still build .a and .o modules.
<erich> it's not a special resource, just the normal package pool.
<bitserf> you'll have to excuse me, i'm not a devel proper, just a lurking user
<bitserf> and you may need to restart gnome too
<bitserf> woops, sorry
<bluefoxicy> hmm
<bluefoxicy> anyone active here on the security team?
<bluefoxicy> I need some guidance on the best way to categorize security notices
<Kamion> hm, the ubuntu-meta update script seems to have an amusing bug
* Kamion tries to track it down
<Treenaks> what kind of bug?
<Kamion> misses the last package output by debootstrap due to not stripping newlines
<Kamion> it didn't matter for most architectures because the last package was libreadline4, which isn't in the seed; but for powerpc it was powerpc-utils
<erich> daniels: latest xserver-xorg package appears to be broken. It searches for .so modules only, but the modules are .a and .o format
<trulux> hey doko
<ruben> erich: bug 4797
<erich> Ah, #4797
<Kamion> erich: daniels is working on it
<erich> yesterday i didn't find it. apparently doesn't contain the term "xserver-xorg"
<Kamion> oh, the bug says that
<lupus_> still no python-gnome2 package for python 2.4?
<lupus_> in hoary
<ruben> lupus_: it's there
<daniels> does anyone here run amd64 or powerpc and hoary?
<daniels> need to test new xorg before upload
<lupus_> python-gnome2 is already the newest version.
<lupus_>   File "/usr/local/share/gnome-schedule/mainWindow.py", line 26, in ?
<lupus_>     import gnome
<lupus_> ImportError: No module named gnome
<ruben> ah, right, the python2.4-gnome2 ain't there yet
<lupus_> uhu :)
<lupus_> :(
<trulux> doko, there?
<lupus_> seb128, anyidea when python2.4-gnome2 will be available? I can't code on my project till it is fixed (and no I'm not complaining it is my choice of using hoary) but I just wonder
<doko> daniels: yes, amd64
<doko> trulux: pong
<trulux> doko, i've uploaded hoary hardened-gcc packages
<trulux> everything done
<trulux> doko, can you upload them?
<doko> I'll have a look at the packages. I think you discussed the issue with pitti?
<daniels> doko: could you please test xserver-xorg from concordia:~daniels/xorg?
<doko> daniels: just this one package, or all the binary packages?
<seb128> lupus_: what's the problem ?
<seb128> lupus_: general rule: if the maintainer is not aware of a problem the problem is never fixed
<daniels> doko: all binary packages would be nice, but mainly just xserver-xorg
<trulux> doko, yes
<lupus_> k I'll fill in a bug report
<trulux> doko, the pkgs info is on the bug report
<lupus_> but I thought asking here was a better idea
<seb128> lupus_: you don't want to say what's wrong here ?
<seb128> lupus_: I still don't know what you are talking about
<lupus_> <lupus_> still no python-gnome2 package for python 2.4?
<lupus_> <lupus_> in hoary
<lupus_> <ruben> lupus_: it's there
<lupus_> <lupus_> python-gnome2 is already the newest version.
<lupus_> <lupus_>   File "/usr/local/share/gnome-schedule/mainWindow.py", line 26, in ?
<lupus_> <lupus_>     import gnome
<lupus_> <lupus_> ImportError: No module named gnome
<lupus_> <ruben> ah, right, the python2.4-gnome2 ain't there yet
<seb128> lupus_: stop flooding
<seb128> grrrr
<lupus_> sorry but I don't understand what is not clear about that
<seb128> lupus_: what's wrong with the python2.3 version ?
<seb128> BTW I'll update to 2.4 soon
<lupus_> because the project is compiled with python 2.4
<Mithrandir> seb128: I guess you didn't mind that I snatched the pyorbit bug from you.
<lupus_> and will look in python 2.4 site map
<seb128> Mithrandir: no problem, thanks
<erich> daniels: btw, DRI on my radeon card with xserver-xorg locks up the screen. :-( kernel 2.6.10rc3
<lupus_> but gnome module is only available for python 2.3 at the moment
<seb128> lupus_: yeah, have you an idea on how many python modules need to be updated ?
<seb128> lupus_: that's not a 1 min job
<seb128> just wait a bit
<daniels> erich: hmm, not had any other reports about that.  if you could file a bug with /var/log/Xorg.0.log and /etc/X11/xorg.conf, that'd be good, thanks
<daniels> erich: i'll be able to test it when I get back home
<lupus_> yes I know I'm an impatient person :)
<seb128> lupus_: yeah, that's not good
<erich> daniels: well, i'm running debian unstable + xserver-xorg from ubuntu and a heavily modified kernel. So i don't really know what is causing the troubles. :-(
<Mithrandir> do we have anything resembling "NOTHOARY" in bugzilla?
<erich> but maybe you know about it. like "i have a radeon patch pending" ;-)
<seb128> Mithrandir: no, use NOTWARTY, that's NOTUBUNTU in fact
<Mithrandir> seb128: okie, thx.
<doko> seb128: fixed gnome-python, uploading it soon.
<seb128> np
<daniels> erich: er, you do know you'll need xlibmesa-dri and probably xlibmesa-gl too, right?
<daniels> erich: mixing and matching components is a good way to kill your system quickly
<seb128> doko: thanks
<erich> daniels: yes, i know... but after someone said that his gnome-terminal runs a lot faster with xorg i couldn't resist. ;-)
<daniels> erich: you should either backport the entirety of xorg or none at all, really
<erich> i upgraded all of xorg. searched by version 6.8.1-1ubuntu
<erich> + dependencies of course.
<erich> but the only package i downgraded to -6 is xserver-xorg
<erich> should i downgrade all others, too?
<doko> daniels: xserver on amd64 starts, anything else to check?
<lexhider_> I created AudioCDCreation page on wiki and somehow it's under FrontPage >> Rosetta >> .. more stuff ..
<lexhider_> can I change this to something more appropriate
<daniels> doko: nope, that's it, thanks
<seb128> anybody known why multisync is not tried by the buildds ?
<trulux> pitti, hey
<trulux> pitti, howya?
<seb128> not sure that's he's here today
<trulux> elmo, ping
<shaya> daniels: where's this upload you said you did
<daniels> i admit, i lied
<daniels> (what sort of a question is that?)
<daniels> http://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/hoary-changes/2004-December/001116.html
<shaya> I would have figured it hit archiev already
<daniels> shaya: it's a source-only upload
<shaya> oh
<shaya> so has to be built
<shaya> I see
<daniels> shaya: so in the time since I've uploaded it, it would have had to have been put in the internal archive, noticed by the buildds, built, uploaded, accepted, and mirrored to the external archive
<shaya> yes, didnt know it worked that way
<shaya> used to old debian way of uploading binaries with the source
<daniels> all our uploads are source-only
<shaya> yes, put 2 and 2  together
<Keybuk> blegh
<Treenaks> ?
<Keybuk> Total AU$  460.00 ... proof that I'm a sucker for an offer of free food :p
<Keybuk> even when the free food costs lots of money, in reality
<Treenaks> ugh
<Keybuk> (lca registations)
<Treenaks> how many?
<Mithrandir> when's LCA again?
<Keybuk> just the one
<Treenaks> hm.. lca.org.au is NOT what I expected
<Mithrandir> it's linux.conf.au. :P
<Treenaks> yeah I googled :)
<Treenaks> I think I'll stick to FOSDEM though :(
<Keybuk> I figured I should probably register as "Professional" rather than be cheap :p
<Keybuk> (the fact it included a "dionner" is iirrelevant :p)
<Treenaks> hey rubenv
<Keybuk> mith: april 2005, week before ubuntu conf
<RubenV> Treenaks: 'morning
<Treenaks> hm.. Mako an I wondered why there was an entire stall of "mooning" characters on the market behind the cathedral in Barcelona
<Treenaks> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caganer
<Treenaks> but it's traditional
<sivang> Treenaks, heheh
<sjoerd> haha
<sivang> Keybuk, what is lca?
<Treenaks> it's true
<Treenaks> there was an entire stall full of those
<Keybuk> sivang: linux.conf.au -- big, well regardedLinux developer conference
* fabbione waves
<fabbione> it's nice to be back home
<fabbione> except for the little detail of a few hours delay
<Mithrandir> hi fabio
<Treenaks> wb fabio :)
<fabbione> hey
<fabbione> now... let's lart somebody for fun..
<fabbione> DANIELS! 
<sjoerd> haha
<fabbione> 2 uploads on X in the same day
<Mithrandir> fabbione: what has he broken today?
<Treenaks> fabbione: you leave him alone for one day... :)
<sjoerd> seems like everyone who flew back yesterday/today has a delay somewhere
* fabbione points the sodomotron towards daniles' airplane
<fabbione> sjoerd: not an excuse to fuck up X
* fabbione grrrrs
<fabbione> Preparing to replace libc6 2.3.2.ds1-19 (using .../libc6_2.3.2.ds1-19ubuntu2_sparc.deb) ...
<fabbione> ops
<fabbione> and my mirror as a consequence
<TD> does michael voigt ever hang out here?
<sjoerd> TD: mvo, currently not here
<TD> thanks
<trulux> Hardened Debian talk at the Umeet #linux on irc.uninet.edu
<trulux> feel free to join
<trulux> ;)
<wasabi_> I am looking for the build process that creates the Ubuntu ISOs. Is that public anywhere?
<daniels> wasabi_: it's just created with debian-cd
<wasabi_> What about the d-i modifications?
<wasabi_> I'm trying to create a preseed for it, for network installs at my office.
<wasabi_> Is that all just built off of the repository?
<wasabi_> Not totallly educated on the d-i yet... but im guessing ubuntu has a lot of udebs which do the X configuration and stuff?
<daniels> wasabi_: apt-get install debian-installer
<daniels> x configuration is done entirely within the xserver-xorg package
<wasabi_> hmm, nifty.
<wasabi_> At first boot or something? Or after base-config?
<wasabi_> I don' thave debian-installer. Is it in warty?
<wasabi_> Not in hoary either.
<daniels> when xserver-xorg first gets configured, it does all its probing and magic
<daniels> apt-get source debian-installer IIRC
<daniels> and a whole host of udebs
<wasabi_> I'm excited about this. ;)
<wasabi_> Going to give FAI the boot.
<jon1012> hi :)
<wasabi_> Interesting. It created a pxeboot.tar.gz thing in it's build directory.
<wasabi_> But didn't actually package any of it.
<wasabi_> Woh.
<wasabi_> This is super easy
* wasabi_ just build a mini.iso
<wasabi_> All I really have to do now is make a preseed file.
<wasabi_> uh oh. Doesn't look like ubuntu has preseed support?
<daniels> i'm not sure, sorry
<Mithrandir> wasabi_: warty doesn't, hoary does.
<wasabi_> Hmm.
<sgarrity> Has there been any discussion of having Home-as-Desktop set as a default in Ubuntu?
<wasabi_> Suppose it's possible to grab d-i from hoary.
<wasabi_> (I need this. =/)
<Mithrandir> wasabi_: might work, yes.
<wasabi_> I guess fixing this up shold be as easy as changing one line from hoary to warty for the release file to grab.
<wasabi_> Mithrandir, know anything about the d-i setup? I dont' even know what im looking for. =/
<Mithrandir> wasabi_: you probably want to talk to Kamion, not me.
<wasabi_> k.
<wasabi_> Cool. THink I got my d-i building
<wasabi_> with a combination of warty/hoary udebs
<wasabi_> So... I think the best thing for Hoary... to make this d-i unattended installation stuff easy for Real Users... is to have debian-installer generate a ubuntu-images or something package... which contains the netboot image and pxe info.
<wasabi_> So to set up a network server, You'd just install ubuntu-image, and all the dhcp/dns stuff.
<wasabi_> heh. no keyboard.
<bluefoxicy> is ubuntulinux.org down/slow?
#ubuntu-devel 2004-12-31
<wasabi_> Kamion, ping (re: debian-installer preseed)
<wasabi_> Anybody aware where the debian-installer gets the name of the Release to install?
<wasabi_> Trying to get Hoary's d-i to install Warty.
<wasabi_> Got it building using Warty udebs, but the net-retriever part is still trying to grab hoary Release file.
<zul> bluefoxicy, im getting the same
<jon1012> is there some geeks having geek codes here ? ;)
<jon1012> (just to know if people continue to use geek codes lol...)
<wasabi_> Hmm.
<wasabi_> Wonder if I can use the Sarge installer to install ubuntu.
<calc> long double on hoary is hosed
<calc> it states it has 18 digits of precision but only has the same as double
<calc> at least on amd64 port
<calc> f - 6 d - 15 l - 18
<calc> f - 0.33333334 0.33333334326744080 0.33333334326744079590
<calc> d - 0.33333333 0.33333333333333331 0.33333333333333331483
<calc> l - 0.33333333 0.33333333333333331 0.33333333333333331483
* calc kicks himself
<calc> nm i used the wrong specifier
<ajmitch_> aha
* calc wonders how using the wrong specifier gives you the same result as the double, wtf?
<calc> shouldn't that just not work at all
* calc dislikes getting weird correct looking output ;)
<wasabi_> HAHA got it.
* wasabi_ has debian-installer SVN installing Warty.
<wasabi_> It's only impressive because I have no idea what I'm doing.
<wasabi_> Cool. Full preseed support.
* wasabi_ unf
<fabbione> morning
<fabbione> bob2: i can't find the bug about the ppc "go to sleep & die" patch
<fabbione> did you assign it to me?
<pitti> Morning guys
<fabbione> hey pitti 
<pitti> fabbione: had a nice trip home?
<fabbione> pitti: we need to take a look at the new CAN's
<fabbione> pitti: no, it sucked as hell
<fabbione> had 3 hours delay because the landing gear broke
<pitti> ugh
<bob2> fabbione: oh, I suck, sorry
<bob2> fabbione@c.c? 
<fabbione> bob2: done already
<pitti> Hi seb128!
<seb128> hey !
<seb128> pitti: how was the travel ?
<pitti> seb128: 45 minutes delay, but otherwise fine
<pitti> seb128: and yours?
<seb128> 30min delayed, out of this fine :)
<fabbione> damn i was the only one with 3 hours delay?
<seb128> yep, you win for the moment apparently :)
<pitti> sjoerd: ping
<sjoerd> pitti: pong
<pitti> sjoerd: I assume that Debian won't get python 2.3 for sarge?
<pitti> sjoerd: because our hal now uses python 2.4
<Treenaks> pitti: 2.4 you mean?
<pitti> sjoerd, Treenaks: yes, of course. 2.4
<sjoerd> i guess it stays with 2.3 as default yes
* pitti should wake up now
<sjoerd> saw the rebuild against python 2.4 in the ubuntu changelog
<pitti> sjoerd: I have to merge the changes again, and the current autofoo changes are a real mess
<pitti> sjoerd: the current package contains autofoo changes in both the package diff.gz and the patch
<sjoerd> hrm oh, not so good
<pitti> doko: do the python2.4 hal changes require an autoreconf run or can I revert these changes?
<sjoerd> python 2.4 is default in ubuntu now ?
<Mithrandir> yes
<sjoerd> ah
<cenerentola> hi ya
<cenerentola> enrico: buon giorno
<enrico> Ciao!
<Mithrandir> hi enrico 
<sjoerd> pitti: doko should know what's planned for python in debian.. but my guess would be python 2.4 default wil be postsarge
<sjoerd> anyway time for a shower and getting myself to the uni :)
<Mithrandir> switching to p2.4 in debian now would be madness and cause for doko to be killed by Kamion next time they meet. ;)
<pitti> right
<seb128> Mithrandir: any idea on #4785 ?
<Treenaks> Mithrandir: will there be pictures?
<Mithrandir> Treenaks: video! :P
<Treenaks> Mithrandir: 8)
<Mithrandir> seb128: not really, my first thought was "wrong compiler version", but it doesn't look like that.
<seb128> Mithrandir: ok, I'll ping Scott :)
<seb128> thanks anyway
<Mithrandir> I wonder how libtool can fuck that up, I can try to reproduce
<seb128> I've no problem on my i386 box, so if anyone with an amd64 install can try this that would be nice
<Mithrandir> reproduced here
<seb128> ok
<seb128> thanks
<Mithrandir> yup, removing rpath fixes it
<pitti> Hi ogra
<ogra> morning everybody
<pitti> doko: ping
<Mithrandir> mozilla-browser ships with /usr/lib/libxpcom.so with an unversioned SONAME.  They should so be shot.
* ogra just crawls out of his programmers cave.....
<ogra> i ripped apart the lock.c code from xscreensaver last week.........glued it together again......
<Treenaks> Mithrandir: who's stopping you? :)
<ogra> these are the leftovers ;)
<ogra> http://www.grawert.net/xss_shot_1.png
<pitti> lamont: still here?
<fabbione> hey ogra
<ogra> hey fabio.....back in the cold again ?
<fabbione> yeah
<ogra> brrr
<fabbione> it sucks
<seb128> ok, anyone has an idea of why  multisync_0.82-3.2ubuntu2 doesn't try to build ? (no build log for it)
<ogra> seb128: ask michael banck ? i think he packaged it.....
<seb128> ogra: I've spoken with him yesterday
<ogra> hmm
<seb128> but the package is uploaded, his part is done
<seb128> ogra: I know who to ask and what I'm doing, don't bother, but thanks anyway :)
<ogra> :)
<fabbione> perhaps is in new?
<seb128> fabbione: according to azeem should not
<seb128> and the source is in the archive
<fabbione> is it in universe?
<seb128> yep
<fabbione> weird
<fabbione> oh probably the override 
<fabbione> if it is unknown it gets scheduled as last
<fabbione> when the buildds are really really idling
<seb128> oh ok
<seb128_> grrrr
<seb128_> dsl hangup ...
<seb128_> <fabbione> when the buildds are really really idling
<seb128_> <seb128> oh ok
<seb128_> --- Disconnected ().
<fabbione> i didn't write anything different
<fabbione> or more
<seb128_> ok
<seb128_> I'll wait for lamont and ask him to kick the build :)
<fabbione> doko: ping
<fabbione> debstriptranslations <- phear
<pitti> fabbione: do you have any better name?
<fabbione> no no.. sounds cool
<pitti> fabbione: to soothe the "phear" a bit, it is not activated by default :-)
<Simira> seb128: do you fix gdm bugs?
<Treenaks> Simira: no, he creates them :P
<seb128> Simira: depending. Most of the time I just forward them upstream
<Simira> Treenaks: that as well, I guess :)
<fabbione> time to kill dpatch in the kernel package
<Simira> seb128: gnome panel crashes when I use ctrl + x for cutting text in web forms. I also had a problem with Gnome-panel running two times at logon.
<Simira> I didn't bother to report a bug, because there were a lot of Gnome crashes-bugs...
<seb128> Simira: the second bug happens sometime
<seb128> Simira: for the first one, which browser are you using ? Does it happen all the time ?
<Simira> seb128: sometime? Always, in my case. :(
<seb128> killall gnome-panel
<seb128> and save the session next time you log off
<seb128> the session has probably something wrong
<Simira> seb128: various mozilla browsers (thunderbird and just mozilla, that is). Everytime I use keybord shortcuts for cutting text
<seb128> on all the pages ?
<Simira> yes, I fixed the session, but I get the same error when gnome panel crashes on me :p
<seb128> ie: google.com for example ?
<Simira> seb128: yup
<Simira> and then I get "Error: detected a panel already running and will now exit", when it restarts
<Simira> *into session manager and kill some gnome panels*
<Simira> oops
<Simira> I think I killed gnome-panel totally... now it completely disappeared
<seb128> it should respawn
<Simira> ah, yes. I just had to click away the error once more
<Simira> but now, I use mozilla firefox (not thunderbird, of course), and it crashes whenever I try to cut text by ctrl-x
<seb128> ok
<seb128> could you get a backtrace ?
<Simira> uh... of what?
<seb128> of the crash when you ctrl-X
<seb128> you don't get a bug-buddy window ?
<Simira> nope
<seb128> the panel crash, right ?
<Simira> Gnome-panel just crashes, restarts, and then I get the "panel already running"-error
<seb128> hum
<seb128> hoary ?
<Simira> kind of annoying
<Simira> yes, last update
<seb128> ok
<seb128> dpkg -l bug-buddy ?
<Simira> not completely installed due to some config-failure, it says. I'm running the last update now, so I'll try again as soon as it's done
<seb128> apt-get -f install
<seb128> ok
<seb128> install gnome-panel-dbg too
<seb128> so you can get a full backtrace
<Simira> ok
<Simira> seb128: I got a report bug-option now, so I put it there.
<seb128> you have gnome-panel-dbg installed ?
<Simira> yes
<seb128> ok, cool
<seb128> thanks
<Simira> np
<doko> pitti: pong
<doko> fabbione: pong
<fabbione> doko: dbus is FTBFS with the recent python2.4 changes
<Kamion> wasabi_: pong, but you seem to have figured stuff out for yourself
<Kamion> wasabi_: FYI mirror/suite is the debconf variable used to decide from which suite to retrieve udebs, generally
<pitti> doko: did you already see http://people.no-name-yet.com/~lamont/buildLogs/d/dbus/0.22+cvs.200412122010-0ubuntu3/
<pitti> doko: hal FTBFS because of missing python2.4-dbus build-dep
<pitti> doko: and p2.4-dbus fails
<sid77> hi
<doko> pitti, fabbione: looking. hal failing should be clear, dbus builds fine for me. investigating ...
<fabbione> doko: universe enabled?
<doko> fabbione: yes
<fabbione> doko: that might be :-)
<fabbione> python2.4-pyrex isn't in main
<fabbione> hal is dep-wait dbus
<doko> ok, yes, then python2.4-pyrex needs to move to main ... 
<fabbione> doko: did you use perl to fix dbus too?
<doko> elmo: ping? moving python2.4-pyrex to main?
<doko> fabbione: ???
<fabbione> doko: nevermind :-)
<pitti> daniels: here?
<lupus_> if I click on an executable file the application is not run in hoary
<lupus_> for which package should I open a bugreport?
<Treenaks> does anyone know kernel/isapnp stuff?
<pitti> Keybuk: around?
<pitti> lupus_: try nautilus
<Treenaks> pitti: how afraid are you of kernel internals? :)
<pitti> Treenaks: ?
<Treenaks> pitti: or, in other words: can you help me add an entry for a PNP card to a driver? :)
<Treenaks> https://bugzilla.ubuntu.com/show_bug.cgi?id=4787
<pitti> Treenaks: no idea, I cannot test this
<Treenaks> pitti: ok.. I'll try some things tonight then
<Treenaks> *hopes for the best*
<pitti> Treenaks: the source code looks easy enouhg
<Treenaks> pitti: yeah, but there are a few things I don't understand :) the "name" in the first part seems like it's from the hardware, but I don't know how to get it :)
<Treenaks> pitti: I'll look around a bit.. thanks anyway
<pitti> haggai: ping
<pitti> mvo: still an unstable net link?
<mvo> pitti: yes :/
<mvo> fast but pretty unstable
<pitti> Hi trulux
<pitti> trulux: I packaged libssp
<pitti> trulux: however, I still have some questions about it
<trulux> pitti, feel free to ask
<trulux> thanks btw
<trulux> ;)
<pitti> trulux: will this lib be linked to every SSP-compiled executable?
<trulux> yes
<pitti> fine
<pitti> second, I need a real upstream URL
<pitti> and a proper upstream tarball would be nice
<trulux> pitti, you mean libssp one?
<pitti> yes
<pitti> something to put into the copyright file
<trulux> that's me and andrew dobbie
<pitti> trulux: the tarball you sent me already contained an useless debian/ directory
<trulux> i wrote the Makefile
<trulux> pitti, yeah
<pitti> trulux: no, I mean an URL
<pitti> trulux: http://foo.com/libssp/ or so
<trulux> ok, http://wiki.debian-hardened.org/libssp
<trulux> there's nothing there but i will write the info there
<pitti> trulux: is the tarball downloadable there?
<trulux> adobbie and me worked out on the libssp, he managed the first pre, then i fixed the code and added a good Makefile
<trulux> pitti, http://lorenzo.debian-hardened.org/debhard/libssp-0.1.tar.fgz
<trulux> .gz
<trulux> that one is old (just a bit)
<trulux> let me upload it
<pitti> wait a bit
<pitti> can you please clean up the tarball a bit?
<pitti> i. e. remove debian/
<pitti> and remove the empty files (README and INSTALL or so)
<trulux> sure
<trulux> i'm doing it right now
<pitti> right now I repackaged the orig.tar.gz
<pitti> but that isn't so nice
<pitti> I'd prefer having a _really_ original tarball :-)
<trulux> pitti, kay, let me do it now
<trulux> a few minutes and done
<dasdas> hi
<Treenaks> hallo
<dasdas> how do you / can you execute windows .exe files on ubuntu?
<HcE> dasdas: use wine?
<Treenaks> dasdas: you can ask support-questions on #ubuntu, but try the program "wine"
<dasdas> ok
<dasdas> where can i download wine?
<Treenaks> dasdas: use the package manager
<Treenaks> dasdas: from the menu
<dasdas> thanx
<trulux> pitti, done
<trulux> pitti, let me upload it
<trulux> it will take really less time ;)
<pitti> trulux: no problem, take your time
<pitti> trulux: can you please remove INSTALL and README or write something useful into it?
<pitti> trulux: oh, and can you please add a real copyright to ssp.c?
<pitti> trulux: like "(C) 2004 Lorenzo ...."
<trulux> yes
<trulux> i did
<trulux> also a license related note
<trulux> as specified on the GPL v2
<pitti> trulux: well, ssp.c already says it's GPL, that's not the problem
<pitti> trulux: it's just lacking a copyright statement
<trulux> it has no copyright info, yeah
<trulux> now it has
<trulux> pitti, https://sourceforge.net/project/showfiles.php?group_id=118309&package_id=138757
<trulux> i know SF.net is crap but no other place to host our scm
<trulux> we were negotiating the sponsoring of the project by Tek Alchemy, current Gentoo sponsor, but still waiting for the server
<pitti> trulux: cool, looks good now
<pitti> trulux: I will use sf as the upstream URL for now
<pitti> trulux: thanks
<trulux> ok
<fabbione> Treenaks: that's relative simple to do (4787)
<pitti> trulux: do you want to have it in Debian proper, too?
<fabbione> Treenaks: check what other pnp modules do
<pitti> trulux: I can download to Debian experimental or only to Hoary
<fabbione> there is something like MODULE_<something>_TABLE 
<cenerentola> is there any kind of base-package policy for ubuntu?
<trulux> piti, yeah
<trulux> Debian experimental would be great
<cenerentola> i mean what kind of requirements should a distribution satisfy to be called ubuntu:
<trulux> Hoary & Sid, then i would try to make it for Sarge
<pitti> trulux: I will not upload it to sid for now
<cenerentola> these days im working on X-Ubuntu [hehe, ubuntu for xbox] 
<trulux> ok, no problem
<pitti> trulux: experimental is fine; Hoary can sync from experimental and it can pass the NEW queue
<cenerentola> and ive ended up running [something like]  ubuntu from an usb pen...
<trulux> pitti, kay
<pitti> Hi sivang!
<cenerentola> what kind of requirements the thing on the pen should satisfy to be called ubuntu?
<cenerentola> ciao sivang!
<sivang> hey cenerentola , pitti
<trulux> or something is wrong with the gcc packages or simply my specs file is broken
<pitti> trulux: wanna take a look at the package before I upload?
<cenerentola> no-one can help me?
<trulux> pitti, sure
<trulux> the name is not changed also
<trulux> i need to have a look inside it, this is not good if something went wrong
<trulux> give me half an hour
<pitti> trulux: http://www.piware.de/libssp/
<pitti> trulux: sure, take the time you need
<trulux> ok, great, thanks
<pitti> trulux: I'm off for a while
<pitti> trulux: returning this evening
<seb128> doko: scons need to be updated for python2.4, are you working on it ?
<daniels> fabbione: pfft, 3 hours delay is nothing, that's only 1/8th flight time
<fabbione> daniels: it's nothing when you can sit in a normal chair inside the airport
<doko> ok, can do that.
<fabbione> not when you are on the plane and can't move
<daniels> fabbione: ah, suck
<fabbione> daniels: the landing gear broke down
<fabbione> and they noticed one minute before taking off
<daniels> jesus
<fabbione> we parked on the runway for 2 hours
<fabbione> one hour to move the airplane back to the parking area and do the tests
<rburton> lucky they didn't notice a minute later :)
<fabbione> and only after that they allowed us to take off
<fabbione> rburton: well.. when i was in flight school we used to say 2 things
<sivang> fabbione, you're a pilot? 
<fabbione> one is that once the airplane takes off... in one way or another you will land
<Treenaks> I witnessed my plane getting a pit-stop/wheel change before I left _to_ Matar
<fabbione> two: "go and explode"
<fabbione> sivang: i was..
<sivang> fabbione, nice :) btw, what flight company was it?
<fabbione> sivang: Mrsk Air
<_rene_> doko: you don't want to help fixing pyuno from OOo to work with something more than python 2.2? ;) (and help with the packaging ;) )
<seb128> doko: thanks for scons
<trulux> done
<trulux> gcc pkgs ready
<trulux> uploaded also
<sivang> wow pyuno is cool, since when it's existed?
<wasabi_> Kamion, yeah, I got it working. Pretty slick. I submitted a patch to choose-mirror.c to not need PREFERRED_DISTRIBUTION.
<Kamion> I think there's a reason why that's there
<wasabi_> Yeah. To test the mirror.
<Kamion> more likely netboot
<wasabi_> It now uses preseeding.
* sivang wonders if this is the common interface to use py scripts to connect and script OOo, gnumeric, sodipodi etc..
<wasabi_> OR preferred distribution, whicheher comes first.
<wasabi_> So, to override "sarge", you just seed it.
<Kamion> ok; did you send that upstream or to our bugzilla?
<Kamion> it should always be given a correct default anyway
<wasabi_> debian-boot@
<Kamion> you know how to submit Debian bugs?
<lupus_> seb128, https://bugzilla.ubuntu.com/show_bug.cgi?id=4828 and https://bugzilla.ubuntu.com/show_bug.cgi?id=4829 are maybe related?
<wasabi_> yes. ;)
<Kamion> mail to the mailing list alone will probably get lost ...
<wasabi_> just wasn't sure if a patch should go there.
<wasabi_> oye.
<Kamion> yeah, patches generally in the BTS
<wasabi_> ANyways, hoary could use that, just by providing a default preseed file...
<wasabi_> instead of altering the code.
<Kamion> altering the code's fine, we already alter it all over the place anyway :)
<Kamion> we will be using default preseed files in hoary for other reasons anyway, though
<wasabi_> Well, the preseeding stuff is super cool.
<Kamion> my main concern with default preseed files is how to get them in the right place automatically
<wasabi_> I *almost* got Warty loading without any prompts. 
<wasabi_> Trying to find the names of a few dialogs that won't go away.
<Kamion> warty didn't even have most of the preseed support code
<wasabi_> I know, that's why I did this. =/
<Kamion> that should by and large be fixed in hoary, although I haven't had time to test it yet ...
<wasabi_> need to get ubuntu deployed at work, unattended.
<wasabi_> using FAI now
<_rene_> wasabi_: python interface to OOo
<wasabi_> ?
<_rene_> erm
<_rene_> ENICK
<wasabi_> heh.
<_rene_> sivang: python interface to OOo
<seb128> lupus_: dunno, I don't understand 4828
<seb128> lupus_: "map" ??
<lupus_> euhm
<lupus_> directory in nautilius
<seb128> that's called a map ?
<lupus_> in winhoos you speak of maps
<seb128> or you are hacking nautilus with some weird patches ?
<lupus_> not directories
<lupus_> no
<lupus_> if you pick system 
<lupus_> from places
<lupus_> in the gnome-panel
<seb128> ok
<lupus_> I mean
<lupus_> Computer
<seb128> is gnome-settings-daemon running ?
<seb128> yep, I understand
<seb128> "map" is just weird here
<lupus_> what name should I use instead of map ? 
<lupus_> 7637 ?        00:00:01 gnome-settings-
<seb128> in nautilus
<seb128> or place
<lupus_> seems to be running
<seb128> or view
<seb128> or dir
<lupus_> k
<seb128> ps ax | grep settings ?
<lupus_>  7637 ?        S      0:01 /usr/lib/control-center/gnome-settings-daemon --oaf-activate-iid=OAFIID:GNOME_SettingsDaemon --oaf-ior-fd=22
<seb128> seems to be ok
<seb128> lupus_: if you killall nautilus, do you still have the problem ?
<lupus_> I had the problem yesterday
<lupus_> en turned pc of
<lupus_> and today still seem problem
<seb128> weird
<seb128> dpkg -l capplets ?
<lupus_> ii  capplets       2.8.1-3ubuntu6 configuration applets for GNOME 2 - binaries
<seb128> dpkg -l nautilus ?
<lupus_> ii  nautilus       2.9.1-0ubuntu4 file manager and graphical shell for GNOME
<seb128> have you changed/updated something to get the problem ?
<lupus_> I think it has something to do with the mime-share package
<lupus_> don't think so
<lupus_> hmm
<lupus_> all mime stuff is not working
<seb128> dpkg -l shared-mime-info ?
<lupus_> ii  shared-mime-in 0.15-1ubuntu1  FreeDesktop.org shared MIME database and spe
<seb128> running update-mime-database /usr/share/mime/ help ?
<lupus_> fixed it
<lupus_> both bugreports seem to be fixed
<lupus_> you close them?
<seb128> ok
<lupus_> bleh
<seb128> something has overwritten your mime database
<lupus_> I wonder why it got broken
<seb128> but dunno which package
<seb128> usually that's a package which include an empty mimedatabase and overwrite the system one
<lupus_> fun :)
<jon1012> hello :)
<jon1012> do you know when the mono packages in hoary will be fixed ?
<Treenaks> Soon
<jon1012> thanks :)
<seb128> lupus_: dpkg -S /usr/share/mime/globs ?
<lupus_> lupus@lupus ~/gnome-schedule $ dpkg -S /usr/share/mime/globs
<lupus_> drivel: /usr/share/mime/globs
<seb128> that's the broken one :)
<jon1012> i know that it's not he right place to ask, but I'll try anyway :p
<jon1012> when I change a few times the image of a gtkimage, my program core dumps...
<jon1012> how can I avoid that ? :/
<lupus_> can I see the date drivel was last updated somehow?
<seb128> zless /usr/share/doc/drivel/changelog.Debian.gz
<lupus_> with ls -l  /usr/share/doc/drivel/changelog.Debian.gz I see when it was installed
<lupus_> and it was yesterday :)
<lupus_> can you open a bugreport on debian for that package or tell me what to say to the maintainer of the package
<lupus_> I don't really know well how to explain what he does wrong
<seb128> http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=286482
<seb128> already done
<seb128> (not by me)
<lupus_> k thx
<lupus_> but for next time what does the globs file show?
<seb128> ?
<seb128> that's the mime database
<seb128> it looks in the files in /usr/share/mime/ to know the mime to use for an extension
<seb128> the file is overwriten here
<seb128> so no association
<seb128> and nautilus doesn't know which one to use
<pitti> Hi trulux
<pitti> trulux: is the package okay?
<trulux> sure
<trulux> it's not okay, it's bright ;)
<trulux> gcc-3.4 done
<trulux> wrapper in progress
<pitti> trulux: I'm not sure that we should modify the gcc package to include the wrapper
<pitti> trulux: I would prefer having a gcc-ssp-3.4 package providing a gcc-ssp executable
<pitti> trulux: at least for the time we are still testing that in universe
<pitti> trulux: okay, then I upload libssp now
<trulux> great
<jon1012> is there someone working with gnomeiconview here ? :/
<jon1012> just to ask a little question :)
<mojo_> ah
<mojo_> gnome-panel-screenshot crash when click Save
<mojo_> it seems to me it can't find the Save as Path
* Treenaks wonders what broke his panel
<Treenaks> or WHO
<Treenaks> did anyone else get a broken panel?
<Treenaks> OK, so removing ~/.gnome2/session fixes the "panel displays as a gray bar" problem
<Treenaks> but why did ~/.gnome2/session break it in the first place?
<daniels> Treenaks: blame seb
<Treenaks> oh I will
* pitti finally has internet access again. Gosh
<pitti> Hey dudes, today one of the most famous German computer magazines reported about Ubuntu! :-)
<smurfix> pitti: which one? c't ?
<jdub> pitti: positive?
<jdub> pitti: scan! url! ;-)
<pitti> smurfix: yes, C't
<doko> very short notice, about 1/3 page
<pitti> jdub: unfortunately it is only 1/3 of a page, and they forgot about all the good features
<jdub> heh
<jdub> pitti: like pmount? :)
<pitti> however, at least there is something
<pitti> jdub: security, utopia, nice default configuration, TRLS etc.
<jdub> cool
<smurfix> pitti: c't isn't one of the most famous computer magazines, it's the only one that still deserves that name
<pitti> smurfix: agreed :-)
<doko> smurfix: any news about your backpack?
<smurfix> By the way, I got my left middle finger back today. Mostly.
<pitti> cool!
<pitti> smurfix: did you also get back your backpack?
<smurfix> Nope :-/  I know somebody in Barcelona who said he'd ask again today, the lost+found is closed on weekends.
<doko> jdub: please could you have a look at chinstrap:~doko/python2.4-doc, if that's what you want about gnome devhelp integration?
<lamont> pitti: you were looking for me earlier?
<jdub> doko: oh! (downloading)
<pitti> lamont: yeah, I needed a native speaker to review the xine USN. However, Kamion showed up, so he took the job :-)
<lamont> pitti: ah, ok
<trulux> hey pitti
<pitti> Hi trulux 
<trulux> pitti, howya?
<pitti> trulux: sorry, my WLAN is down
<trulux> did you uploaded the pkgs?
<trulux> :(
<pitti> trulux: I borrowed a modem from my neighbour and now work over ssh :-/
<pitti> trulux: yes, I uploaded it to experimental. However, it's in NEW now
<trulux> ok
<jdub> doko: dude
<jdub> doko: sweet!
<doko> however that's the printed documentation, not extracted from the docstrings in the sources. For that kind of thing we would have to add a pydoc -> devhelp mapping.
* lamont heads to town for lunch and bandwidth
<jdub> http://cairographics.org/pipermail/cairo/2004-December/002342.html
<daniels> jdub: sweet!
<daniels> jdub: apparently alexl has been making it mad fast as well
<jdub> "dumb optimisation" :)
<jdub> it will be interesting to see how gtk+ changes, with cairo
<daniels> 'These two changes brought down the page rendering speed to about 2.4
<daniels> seconds, which is about 11250% faster (likely even more, since a
<daniels> significant part of the time is spent reading and decoding the pdf and
<daniels> writing out the resulting png).'
<pitti> sjoerd: here?
<trulux> pitti, what do you want to do now with the pkgs?
<pitti> trulux: sorry, I did not yet find time to look at the gcc packages
<pitti> trulux: too much to do today
<trulux> pitti, ok, np , where's the libssp exactly? any upload logs available like in Debian?
<pitti> trulux: libssp is currently in the NEW queue, i. e. it must be manually processed by a Debian FTP master
<pitti> trulux: if this is done, further uploads go directly into the archive
<trulux> pitti, i'm confused, where i can see that? did you uploaded it to a Debian queue or to an Ubuntu one?
* trulux is confused
<pitti> trulux: I uploaded it to Debian experimental
<pitti> trulux: you cannot see the package right now
<lifeless> pitti: thank you very much, pmount is happy for me now.
<sjoerd> pitti: yeah
<pitti> lifeless: I'm happy that you are happy now :-)
<pitti> sjoerd: with the newest hal, labels with spaces still don't work
<pitti> sjoerd: I added a trivial gvm patch which makes them finally work
<sjoerd> pitti: you need both hal and gvm.. works here
<pitti> oh, ok. I did not notice a new gvm
<sjoerd> 1.1.2-5 :)
<trulux> pitti, ok, sorry of my stpudity ;D
<trulux> pitti, i'm reading the debian mentors site
<trulux> pitti, how somebody can apply for it?
<pitti> trulux: no worries
<trulux> i know i need an already working debian dev
<trulux> but just nothing known about somebody who wants to bet mine ;)
<pitti> trulux: this is more or less DD-internal knowledge
<pitti> darn, working with a modem is a PITA
<trulux> heh
<trulux> so, pitti, there's no place where see what packages are in NEW state or even the uploads logs
<trulux> not linked from mentors site indeed
<pitti> trulux: upload logs are in the pts
<pitti> trulux: but not for NEW
<sjoerd> pitti: lemme know if the new package doesn't work for you 
<pitti> sjoerd: should, I just not yet upgraded to it :-(
<pitti> sjoerd: I worked offline for two hours and finally found a modem link now
<sjoerd> pitti: ubuntu is so outdated ;P
<pitti> sjoerd: my WLAN will be unavailable until tomorrow
<pitti> sjoerd: no, it is already in ubuntu :-P
<sjoerd> pitti: still your usb wlan card that's broken ?
<pitti> sjoerd: but not yet on _my_ ubuntu :-)
<sjoerd> hehe
<pitti> sjoerd: no, my provider has to make some repairs on the central router node
<sjoerd> ah
<pitti> sjoerd: at home I don't use my USB wlan stick, I'm in an intranet
<pitti> sjoerd: btw, when you write Sjoerd's Totally Rad New GVM Fork (tm), can you please make it react on, say, SIGUSR1?
<pitti> sjoerd: which causes it to reconnect to dbus?
<pitti> sjoerd: this should smoothen upgrades
<sjoerd> pitti: who is gonna send it SIGUSR1 ?
<pitti> sjoerd: postinst?
<sjoerd> it already reconnects to dbus nicely
<pitti> sjoerd: darn, I should sleep
<sjoerd> dbus postinst ? hal postinst ? random dbus using program postinst ?
<pitti> sjoerd: I mean on upgrades of the g-v-m package
<pitti> sjoerd: but there sigusr won't help, sorry
<pitti> sjoerd: just forget about that
<sjoerd> hehe
* pitti got up at 0630, which isn't to be considered healthy
<sjoerd> pitti: i'm currently convincing the kernel to put enough information in sysfs for hal to nicely handle dm devices
<pitti> sjoerd: cool; what does it already provide right now?
<sjoerd> pitti: basically nothing. It needs to provice information about it parent devices.
<sjoerd> unfortunately hal currently can't handle device with multiple parents.
<sjoerd> not a problem for crypt devices luckily
<pitti> sjoerd: ah, multiple parents is for RAID devices?
<sjoerd> yep
<sjoerd> and multipath and other kind of cool stuff
<sjoerd> pitti: biggest problem with the gvm rewrite is a nice name ;)
<pitti> sjoerd: ghotplug?
<Treenaks> gotplug?
<pitti> grdm?
<pitti> (removable device manager), since it also manages Cameras etc.
<pitti> night, dudes
<pitti> I'm tired
<dasdas> hi
<dasdas> i installed ubuntu - i wiped out an entire hard disk and installed it.
<dasdas> when i decided to clean it - format the entire hard disk and run and install windows again, it gives the error message:
<dasdas> GRUB loading, please wait ...
<wasabi>  /join #ubuntu
<dasdas> the above problem is serious
<dasdas> plz someone give attention to it
<Riddell> dasdas: it's a user problem, please ask in the correct channel #ubuntu
<daniels> sssssssseeeeeeeeeebbbbbbbbbbbbbbbb
<daniels> seb128: i can't set .pngs as the background, seemingly
<daniels> seb128: (hoary; i can add them, click them and see a preview, but when i select them and hit close, it stays on chocolate ubuntu)
<seb128> daniels: killall nautilus ?
<daniels> seb128: background remains the same
<daniels> ah no wait, it changed after a while
<seb128> weird
<seb128> ok
<daniels> cheers
<daniels> right, dinnertime now
<sivang> people people, do we have an eta for gnome return for hoary? and am I the only one not affected because of not doing dist-upgrade? :)
<doko> sivang: what's wrong?
<sivang> doko : let's check :)
<trulux> doko, woo woo :)
<trulux> doko, did you read the last reply on the bug thread?
<doko> trulux: which bug thread?
<lamont_r> grumble.  someone else is hogging the coffee-shop bandwidth
<trulux> doko, GCC one
<doko> trulux: these are not separate packages
<trulux> doko, pitti didn't said diff packages, just that it could be good
<trulux> mut again
<trulux> doko, tssp & pie are not enabled by default
<doko> trulux: no .dsc and .diff.gz on your site.
<trulux> doko, ok, let me upload it
<trulux> doko, i was busy with a talk in the Umeet
<trulux> 3 hours of talk
<lamont_r> hrm... forkbomb.  oops.
<trulux> lamont_r, heh
<trulux> pitti, woo woo
<lamont_r> trulux: launching 500 wgets in parallel can be a bit bad... :-)
<trulux> lamont_r, O_o
<lamont_r> OTOH, the coffee shop's AP has only fallen over once, that I can tell... :-)
<ogra> lamont_r:  launching 500 wgets in parallel ? is it an amsterdam coffee shop ?
<lamont_r> ogra: fort collins colorado, usa
<ogra> i thoght so :)
* lamont_r watches wave 2 of the timeouts go through.
<trulux> pitti, hey
<trulux> pitti, when do you we could have uploaded the gcc packages?
<trulux> i'm uploading the diff
<trulux> btw
<pitti> trulux: I promise I will take a look at them tomorrow
<pitti> trulux: where are your packages?
<trulux> on http://d-sbd.alioth.debian.org/apt/hoary
<pitti> trulux: this directory only contains the debs; can you please put the source packages there, too?
<trulux> pitti, umm, ok, but BIG upload
<trulux> let me do it
<pitti> trulux: ahem, and can you please rename the packages to *-ssp?
<pitti> trulux: we must not touch the current packages in main right now
<pitti> trulux: so big?
<lamont_r> trulux: if you're uploading to ubuntu, it's source-only...
<pitti> trulux: you do not need to put the orig.tar.gz there
<pitti> lamont_r: no, it's a private archive for testing purposes
<lamont_r> ah, ok
* lamont_r was concerned there for a minute..
<pitti> trulux: I can download the orig.tar.gz from archive.u.c
<trulux> ok
<trulux> then i put the diff
<pitti> lamont_r: you should rather be concerned about if we uploaded them into main right now :-)
<pitti> trulux: and the dsc
<pitti> trulux: but before you do that, can you please rename the package?
<pitti> trulux: right now I cannot install it without overwriting my current gcc
<trulux> pitti, it wouldn't change anything
<trulux> i mean, nothing enabled by default
<trulux> without the wrapper that gcc is same as gcc-3.4 one
<trulux> or without explicitly enabling things
<trulux> that's because i haven't renamed it
<pitti> hmm, okay
<pitti> Then I can _test_ the packages as they are (please send the source anyway)
<trulux> ok
<pitti> I thought the patch would modify gcc proper to add something like -fstack-smash-protector?
<pitti> trulux: I now see two *.dsc files, but no diff.gz
<trulux> uploading
<trulux> my badnwidth sucks
<trulux> pitti, 83%
<trulux> 87%
<trulux> pitti, DONE
* pitti downloads
<pitti> trulux: but AFAIUI the patch _has_ to modify gcc, right?
<pitti> trulux: only providing a wrapper is certainly not sufficient to spit out different binaries
<pitti> trulux: are you sure this is everything? the interdiff is only 6 kB
<pitti> trulux: and most of the diff is bureaucracy
<pitti> trulux: is the actual SSP code already contained in the original package?
<pitti> doko: ^
<pitti> trulux: thanks for preparing the package, I will play around with it tomorrow.
* pitti grabs some food
<trulux> pitti, yes
<trulux> pitti, everything is inside
<trulux> pitti, anyway, to prevent unexpected errors, i'm uploading also the gcc-3.4 original (or seems to be the orig one) diff
<pitti> trulux: that means that the required patch only needs to activate the stuff that is already in the package?
<pitti> trulux: I will scrutinize the interdiff tomorrow, but from a first glance it seems to be pretty safe
<trulux> ok
<trulux> yes , supposed to ;)
<doko> pitti, trulux: the size of the patch is not the problem. are you willing to recheck every bug report with an unpatched gcc version, on every architecture, so that it can be forwarded and accepted by upstream?
<pitti> doko: as long as this is in universe, I don't really see a problem with this
<lamont_r> pitti: right.  supporting this is certainly beyond our scope...
<pitti> doko: if the patch really just adds a wrapper around gcc, then we might even put the package in main later and deactivate it by default
<pitti> doko: but I did not look at the patch so far
<trulux> doko, it's the idea
<trulux> pitti, to make it breaking something you need to acticvate it explicitly
<pitti> doko: as soon as the patch modifies anything in gcc (i. e. compiled binaries with deactivated SSP can be different than with the current gcc), the package should stay in universe for Hoary
<pitti> trulux: is there any chance of modifying behaviour if SSP is turned off?
<lamont_r> pitti: if the code is present in the compiled gcc-binary, whether on or not, then you have the support issue with upstream.
<lamont_r> that is, the binaries for gcc can't really change if we want to be able to support it in hoary.
<trulux> pitti, it's not on GCC as lamont_r says
<trulux> it just needs to load it from libssp
<trulux> no issues about that
<pitti> lamont_r: but I thought it already is present somehow? because the harden patch does not add real code
<trulux> only HPPA seems not fully supported
<trulux> (not working...)
<lamont_r> if it doesn't add real code, then it's possibly OK.
<trulux> upgrowing stacks archs
<trulux> it loads code from libssp
<trulux> no crap in libgcc
<trulux> nor glibc
<lamont_r> LD_PRELOAD?
<trulux> nope
<trulux> shared lib dinamically linked
<pitti> lamont_r: it links to an additional library libssp
<lamont_r> oh, the wrapper just preloads it. ok
<trulux> -lssp -fstack-protector
<pitti> lamont_r: I don't think it uses preloading
<trulux> wrapper justs sets if using default PIE and default SSP or SSP all
<lamont_r> so you're telling me that the gcc-binary is different (extra library)?
<pitti> lamont_r: it seems to be normal linking
<trulux> it does not
<trulux> yeah, pitti right
<doko> we can add your additional dpatch file (if you document it ;-P), but not enable it by default. this way you can rebuild an ssp enabled gcc with less effort (to put in in universe). what's the problem having it available with another name?
<pitti> doko: you mean a dpatch which changes debian/control?
<doko> lamont_r: the gcc binary is different, because trulux applies the protector patch.
<lamont_r> doko: and that probably creates pain for upstream support, yes?
<trulux> doko, you forgot it uses libssp
<trulux> _LIBSSP_PROVIDES_SSP_
<lamont_r> and gcc links with it.
<trulux> means, no code tweaking except for specs
<doko> lamont_r: yes
<doko> +# Hardened Debian patches
<doko> +# lorenzo@gnu.org
<doko> +debian_patches += protector
<trulux> doko, libssp.dpatch
<pitti> trulux: please don't get us wrong; I really love to see this working, but I'm paranoid about breaking _anything_ and supporting it afterwards
<doko> trulux: what about having a separate binary in universe and getting some experience with it?
<lamont_r> pitti: in the ideal world, the package would Depend: gcc-3.4, and provide whatver shimming was needed to make it not have to change the gcc-3.4 debs at all.
<pitti> lamont_r: sounds like a matter of providing a runtime hook in gcc
<pitti> if that were possible, it would really rock
<lamont_r> pitti: or creative use of existing loader functions, maybe.
<trulux> a good gcc-config like
<trulux> to switch security profiles
<trulux> which we are working on
<trulux> but gcc needs to be dependent of libssp if it explicitly uses it
<trulux> or even include then the SSP inside the glibc
<trulux> but it's  not the right way in our opinion
<pitti> trulux: why not? the gcc-ssp package would depend on libssp-dev and gcc
<lamont_r> trulux: another good thing to do would be to break the patch up into rational-sized bits and feed them upstream.  (splats of the full diff tend to not make it..)
<pitti> trulux: and the binaries are linked against -lssp anyway, so would automatically depend on libssp
<trulux> pitti, great
<trulux> then we can do it forward
<doko> lamont_r: i think the upstream patch author is working on it
<lamont_r> doko: cool
<pitti> trulux: AFAICS the only real patch to gcc.c is the change of const char* link_spec, right?
<trulux> right
<pitti> trulux: if we would replace the static string assignment with something runtime evaluated, the hook should be possible without recompiling gcc, right?
<doko> pitti: no, please look at the protector patch
<pitti> doko: what I don't understand: the current package already contains the actual ssp code, but does not contain this simple #ifdef'ed patch to actually use it?
<pitti> doko: ah, it overwrites protector.c with a new version, it seems
<pitti> doko: so is the current protector.c just a stub?
<trulux> pitti, right but ssp code stills need to be recognized
<doko> the whole patch isn't applied in the current packages. it just sits there.
<pitti> doko: ah
<trulux> doko is right
<pitti> doko: I was confused because I did not see a file protector.c in the interdiff
<pitti> the gcc-spec-env.dpatch seems uncritical to me
<tseng> it clears some environment variables
<tseng> on SUID
<tseng> there are some info leaks using LD_*
<pitti> tseng: huh? I don't see anything like this?
<pitti> tseng: it seems to hook an additional spec file into the chain
<pitti> tseng: and reads the name from env["GCC_SPECS"] 
<tseng> oh sorry, im thinking glibc-env.dpatch
<tseng> (which i was just looking at)
<tseng> trulux: you put in the tigger specs-env thing?
<trulux> tseng, yeah, it's not really good but useful anyway
<tseng> yeah...
<tseng> i dont think even h-gentoo is using it yet?
<trulux> it's using it i think , no idea
<trulux> our wrapper now works independent of that
<trulux> we are moving in a new way, studying things further
<tseng> ill finish reading the backlog..
<trulux> fine
<jdub> morning all
<tseng> lo jeff
<trulux> btw, my work with the NSA stuff (selinxu backport) is also distracting my fun times
* jdub boggles at stupid u-u threads
<tseng> why are you backporting to 2.4..?
<trulux> tseng because of many things, mainly that enterprises are not going to migrate to 2.6 if the don't have moe than 4 cpus (on SMP related discuss)
<pitti> Hi jdub 
<trulux> also that 2.4 is well tested, works fine, it has no monkey/kamikaze changes in the source and so on
<seb128> hey hey jdub 
<trulux> pitti, i must go to sleep
<pitti> trulux: me too :-)
<trulux> all of you know my email so, send there any thing on them
<pitti> good night and thanks for your work
* lamont_r goes to fetch kids.  bbiah
<trulux> lorenzo@gnu.org
<trulux> send there any q's
<trulux> bye
<ogra> hey jdub
<jdub> yo ogra 
<ogra> jdub: http://www.grawert.net/xss_shot_1.png
<sivang> yo jdub dude
<jdub> ogra: aha, now that's looking muuuuuch nicer :)
<ogra> jdub: everything xft (even the drawings including the cursor) ;) 
<ogra> jdub: next will be utf8 (i want the dots for the pw !)
<jdub> heh
<ogra> jdub: and probably a fade to transparency ? (by just blending over the saved under pixmap)
<jdub> that's getting towards diminishing returns
<jdub> once we have a proper gtk+ version, and full composite support, we won't have to work too hard for it
* seb128 is curious to know what jdub call a proper gtk version :)
<ogra> jdub: ok, i'll stop at utf8 (and probably rtl) there seems no .po file for the lock code
<jdub> seb128: not the sun/ximian hack -> something acceptable to jwz
<ogra> jdub: in fact it looks like the thing was never touched since ages
<seb128> jdub: hum. What kind of hack is that ?
<seb128> jdub: BTW the debian menu is back in hoary :p
<ogra> lol
<jdub> seb128: they just did a gross, relatively insecure hack to make the lock dialogue gtk+
<jdub> seb128: isn't that what you showed me at matar?
<seb128> yep
<seb128> with a debian swirl as icon
<jdub> oh good
<seb128> and you're right, the menu is kind of slow to be built after changes
<seb128> I've noticed it while I was testing the changes
<jdub> when popping open from the top level?
<seb128> yep
* sivang had done dist-upgrade, to relogin again or not? this is the question....;-)
<wasabi> anybody fooled with preseeding base-config in hoary?
<wasabi> oh. n/m. I just had an epiphany and realized my problem.
#ubuntu-devel 2005-01-01
<wasabi> huh. i wonder if making xserver kick off dpkg-reconfigure on itself when it fails to start is a good idea.
<wasabi> heh.
<wasabi> !!! HACK !!!
<bob2> how annoying
<bob2> my laptop will only associate with my AP for about 20 seconds
<bob2> then it drops
<yann_> hello :)
<yann_> any webmaster of ubuntulinux.org, or a way to contact one of theme? didn't get any answer to my mails :/
<yann_> we're creating a french support site for ubuntu, including a forum, would be nice if there could be a link in http://www.ubuntulinux.org/community/forums/
<bob2> who did you email?
<yann_> info & webmaster @ ubuntulinux.org
<bob2> when?
<yann_> the first about a month ago, the second about 2 weeks ago
<yann_> both were about a french site about ubuntu
<yann_> 12/13/2004 07:33 PM
<yann_> from etheeten@gmail.com
<yann_> if that could help you :|
<yann_> that was to trademarks@ubuntulinux.org
<yann_> the first mail is from 11/30/2004 01:54 AM , to info@ubuntulinux.org, from yann@mandragor.org
<yann_> does that help? :|
<yann_> well, do you think I should try to mail again? :/
<bob2> hm, no cds yet
<bob2> mako: if the cds claimed to have shipped on nov 8th, but aren't here yet, is it time to start wondering?
<calc> wow that is a while
<calc> i got mine back at thanksgiving
<bob2> daniels: my X laptop gets very unhappy when I start a second X server
<wasabi> I still haven't gotten mine either.
<wasabi> CD's that is.
<bob2> have you checked shipit.ubuntu.com?
<kergan> how long does it take on average
<bob2> depends on when you order
<bob2> they go out in bunches
<kergan> i orderd them aroung turkey day
<kergan> and not it finaly told me thay sent them on the 6th of this month
<bob2> should be there very soon then
<kylem> bob2, i've the same problem. (same ship date too)
<kergan> 2 weeks
<kergan> really
<kergan> wow thats fast specaly since its the x-mas malling seasion
<calc> they are shipped from switzerland i think
<calc> so probably takes a while
<fabbione> morning
<calc> fabbione: hi
<doko> morning all
<fabbione> hey doko
<fabbione> doko: we need a 64bit gcc for ppc
<doko> fabbione: see on chinstrap:~doko/gcc/
<fabbione> sw33t
<fabbione> why isn't uploaded?
<doko> it's C only, we don't a 64bit glibc, no priority, ...
<fabbione> doko: we need the gcc for the 64bit kernel :-)
<fabbione> the rest can wait
<fabbione> doko: we will need a very minimal amount of packages in 64 bit
<calc> just buy an x86-64 ;)
<fabbione> like gcc, libc, ncurses and something like sparc-utils
<calc> does ubuntu work on g5's already?
<fabbione> calc: our buildd are g5
<calc> cool
<fabbione> but they are running UP/32bit
<calc> oh
<fabbione> because of kernel limitations
<calc> that kinda sucks, wasting half of the system then
<calc> is it numa like amd64?
<fabbione> that's why we need gcc 64bit & so on...
<fabbione> no idea...
<fabbione> i am not into ppc at all
<calc> oh ok
<fabbione> i just need to prepare the kernel for elmo to test at the datacenter :)
* fabbione attempts another sparc ubuntu install
<doko> 32bit apps on ppc are usually faster.
<fabbione> doko: it is like sparc
<calc> 32bit is usually faster in general except when you have a braindead arch like x86
<fabbione> 64bit kernel, 32 bit userland
<fabbione> and only a few userland packages in 64bit
<fabbione> like pgsql and stuff like that
<calc> a 32bit x86-64 would be interesting
<calc> i wonder if it would be even faster (if its even possible to force it into such a mode)
<fabbione> installing on 9600bps serial console is the pain
<wasabi> dont suppose anybody who knows much about preseeding base-config is awake
<fabbione> wasabi: just ask
<wasabi> Well.... trying to find the right preseeding values to get hoary's base-config to skip everything.
<wasabi> Tried everything I can and it's still asking for username, passwor,d and showing the welcome and timezone screens
<fabbione> wasabi: preseeding isn't always enough
<fabbione> you need to workaround some debconf priorities as well
<wasabi> Hmmm.
<wasabi> Well, not sure how to adjust the priorities of base-config, which is started automatically.
<fabbione> you need to edit the scripts
<wasabi> the base-config scripts?
<fabbione> yes
<wasabi> nuh.
<wasabi> buh.
<wasabi> that's not easy. =/
<fabbione> i never said it was :)
<wasabi> I was just hoping.
<wasabi> It should be easier.
<wasabi> So, there a howto? ;0
<fabbione> just read the code? ;)
<wasabi> =(
<pitti> Morning
<fabbione> hey pitti
<pitti> Hi mvo
<mvo> hi pitti 
<sid77> hi
<pitti> Hi seb128 
<Treenaks> "seb128 broke my gnome" ?
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-devel:seb128] : Ubuntu development -- ARE WE NEARLY THERE YET? -- general discussion and support on #ubuntu | Want to help Hoary? see https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/HoaryGoals
<seb128> morning
<seb128> (mataro server)
<seb128> Treenaks: hum ?
<Treenaks> seb128: why did I have to rm ~/.gnome2/session to make my panel work again? :)
<seb128> "seb128 broke your panel"
<Treenaks> seb128: and nautilus.. I couldn't right-click on the desktop either
<seb128> Treenaks: killall gnome-vfs-daemon nautilus gnome-panel trashapplet
<seb128> nothing to do with the session
<seb128> that's a gnome-vfs-daemon bug
<Treenaks> seb128: removing the session fixed it for me
<seb128> no
<seb128> restarting fixed it
<seb128> no ?
<seb128> the bug doesn't happen every time
<Treenaks> seb128: no, I tried to log in 3 times -- each time the panel "hung".. removing the session file -> it worked again
<Treenaks> seb128: so that was a coincidence?
<seb128> yep
<seb128> you have kept the session ?
<Treenaks> I moved it aside instead of rm'ing it, so yes
<Treenaks> not that I used it for anything but starting gaim.. but hey
<seb128> you can retry to put it again and see if it bugs
<Treenaks> tonight, when I'm with the machine again :)
<seb128> ok
<seb128> if the session is broken open a bug with it :)
<seb128> brrr
<seb128> -9C according to my weather
<seb128> at least now it feels like december :)
<Treenaks> 8)
<pitti> daniels: ping
<pitti> Kamion: already awake?
<pitti> Keybuk: here?
<seb128> pitti: apparently you are the only one working here :p
<fabbione> pitti: daniels is in vac...
<pitti> yes, I remembered about daniels as soon as I hit enter :-/
<pitti> I need a native English speaker to review an USN text
<mvo> pitti: how can I train pmount to not sync mount certain volumes in warty? i.e. external HDs
<pitti> mvo: upgrade to hal/pmount/gvm of Hoary :-)
<pitti> mvo: seriously, this is not trivial in Warty
<pitti> mvo: the easiest solution is probably to add an fstab entry
<mvo> pitti: aye, thanks#
<pitti> gosh, all channels are so quiet today - it almost feels like it was christmas, or so...
<ogra> heh
<seb128_> I can make some noise if you want :p
<mvo> lalalalala
<ogra> lololo
<mvo> let's sing a christmas song
<mvo> ;)
<ogra> hehe
<pitti>  Frhliche Weihnacht berall 
<Treenaks> *shudder*
<ogra> lalalalalala la lala
<mvo> Treenaks: come on, now a dutch one !
<ogra> yay
<pitti> 
<seb128_>  lalala
* wasabi baths in UTF-8
<wasabi> *bathes
* smurfix passes the soap to wasabi
<seb128> hum
* seb128 has just dist-upgraded
<seb128> and now
<seb128> /usr/bin/env: python: No such file or directory
<seb128> (running dput)
<pitti> seb128: if it gives you a better feeling, my python XML support is gone, too
<seb128> :(
<pitti> Mithrandir: ping
<fabbione> doko: did you realize that you uploaded gcc3.4 as native package?
<fabbione> no
<fabbione> nevermind
<fabbione> i am on crack
<Kamion> pitti: yo
<fabbione> Kamion: i did bootstrap the sparc :-)
<Kamion> cool
<fabbione> plenty of problems, but nothing unfixable
<fabbione> for some reasons d-i installed a -smp kernel (=kabuum)
<Kamion> that's easy to sort out
<fabbione> and it didn't find silo-installer or couldn't install silo for some reasons
<fabbione> and it did add restricted to sources.list
<fabbione> that's another kabuum
<fabbione> probably 2 of them are related
<Kamion> not really interested in kludging the restricted thing for sparc only; fix your archive :)
<fabbione> Kamion: well... there is nothing restricted for sparc...
<Kamion> for the rest, can you send me /var/log/debian-installer/syslog from the installed system?
<fabbione> but yeah...
<fabbione> i will fix my archive
<Kamion> sure, but d-i doesn't get to know that
<fabbione> sure i can
<Kamion> the silo thing is weird
<fabbione> it might be something wrong on the archive... i didn't spend too much time on it
<Kamion> oh, *crap*, silo-installer is RETARDED
<Kamion> ok, that's silo-installer brokenness which needs to be fixed
<fabbione> Kamion: oh.. ok
<Kamion> unfortunately it means a string change
<fabbione> Kamion: hmmm
<Kamion> it might be easier to kludge it by unexcluding silo from debootstrap for now
<fabbione> Kamion: no rush....
<fabbione> it is more important to get the correct kernel
<fabbione> at least in the beginning
<Kamion> fabbione: what does the 'ncpus probed' line in /proc/cpuinfo look like?
<fabbione> ncpus probed    : 1
<fabbione> this is with 2.6.8 from debian
<Kamion> fabbione: hm, is linux-sparc64 in your archive?
<Kamion> it's in restricted ... :)
<fabbione> Kamion: the most important thing is that i need to figure why the console hangs at the end of the boot process
<fabbione> isn't that from linux-meta?
<Kamion> actually it might not be in restricted, haven't checked
<Kamion> yes
<mako> bob2: yeah, it may be a problem.. i am making a list of probably borked cds
<mako> bob2: shipments that is.. i'll be contacting the companya bout them
<fabbione> linux-sparc64_2.6.9-4_sparc.deb
<mako> bob2: i have a half a dozen now
<fabbione> Kamion: i get this in main
<Kamion> hm
<Kamion> /var/log/debian-installer/syslog definitely needed to debug
<fabbione> i did send you the mail....
<fabbione> did you get it?
<Kamion> haven't read mail yet this morning
<fabbione> ah ok
<fabbione> take your time
<fabbione> i need to go and cut my hairs
<fabbione> + the buildd is catching up
<fabbione> all that lsb-* is crap on console :-)
<fabbione> it looks really really really hugly
<seb128> doko: here ?
<wasabi> waaaah
* wasabi beats base-config.
<Kamion> wasabi: you know that the username/password stuff is in shadow not base-config, right?
<wasabi> i can't even get the welcoem screen to go away.
<wasabi> but no, i didn't.
<Kamion> # Avoid the introductory message.
<Kamion> base-config     base-config/intro       note
<Kamion> does that not work?
<wasabi> i have that, and no.
<wasabi> # Skip the two initial welcome screens.
<wasabi> base-config     base-config/title       title
<wasabi> base-config     base-config/intro       note
<wasabi> base-config     base-config/login       note
<wasabi> i've got those.
<wasabi> s/two/three
<wasabi> heh
<wasabi> s/two// =/
<Kamion> title isn't a question anyway
<wasabi> yeah i just saw it in debconf-get-selections and figured i'd give it a try
<Kamion> would probably be easiest to figure out how to get base-config's debconf priority to critical
<wasabi> so the passwd stuff is shadow now, not passwd?
<wasabi> the manual says passwd.
<Kamion> might require adding a base-config/priority template for preseeding; I was ordered to stop Ubuntu copying debconf/priority from the first stage
<wasabi> or something does, or i wouldn't have done it.
<Kamion> passwd is from the shadow source package; sure, passwd
<wasabi> i dont know enough about templates and stuff yet.
<wasabi> im just a user trying to deploy ubuntu today
<Kamion> I'm at least partially talking to myself ... :)
<wasabi> if i can get this working, fai is going to die an ugly death
<wasabi> because i like this much better.
<Kamion> ok, how about I add base-config/priority for you now in 2.60ubuntu4
<wasabi> for obvious reasons.
<wasabi> sounds good!
<wasabi> Yeah I like the idea of having a seperate setting for base-config
<wasabi> could be useful in certain circumstances.
<ajmitch_> morning
<Kamion> jdub: can I add silo to base for sparc?
<wasabi> Kamion: are you making that change now or later? just wondering so I can stop paying attention tonight.
<Kamion> fabbione: aha, you and ia64 share a bug, found it and am fixing now
<Kamion> wasabi: right after this fix for Fabio
<wasabi> you dont' have to worry about it
<Kamion> I think it's important though
<wasabi> oh okay. ;)
<Kamion> lamont: tomorrow's CD should fix the ia64 kernel brokenness
<Kamion> (in d-i)
<Kamion> wasabi: uploaded. when you see base-config_2.60ubuntu4_all.deb in the archive, try 'base-config base-config/priority select critical'
<wasabi> super. You rock.
<wasabi> thank you drive thru
<Kamion> untested though :)
<wasabi> fun
<mvo> Kamion: is the hoary i386-cdimage of today safe to use? 
<Kamion> mvo: no idea, probably not
<Kamion> mvo: it includes python2.4-minimal and so needs a debootstrap update, which I'm doing now
<mvo> is there a date that you can recommend :) ?
<Kamion> 20041220 would be my first guess but I haven't tried it
<mvo> ah, thanks
<mvo> I'll give it a try then. I need a current cd to test upgrading from it 
<fabbione> Kamion: cool.. what was the bug?
<fabbione> whoops :-)
<fabbione> i can see from the changes ;)
* wasabi backports base-config/hoarty to warty
* wasabi hum de dum
* pitti watches how a SSP-compiled package prevents a buffer overflow exploit
<pitti> fabbione: is there a ppc or i386 dchroot somewhere with kernel build-deps?
<fabbione> yup
<fabbione> ppc davis
<pitti> cool, thanks
<pitti> fabbione: i386 somewhere?
<fabbione> i386.. hmm probably macaroni
<fabbione> otherwise send me the diff and i will build it for you
<pitti> fabbione: I don't need a full build to start with; I will probably trim down the .config for my host and test there
<pitti> fabbione: I would like to start with the PaX kernel
<fabbione> pitti: ah i see
<fabbione> good luck :-)
<pitti> fabbione: thanks!
<pitti> fabbione: btw, SSP really rocks
<fabbione> pitti: eheheh
<fabbione> you are a security bitch
<pitti> fabbione: basically, with SSP you can forget about buffer overflow USNs
<fabbione> yeah i was there for you taking notes man
* fabbione still remembers
<pitti> I know
<fabbione> "Why don't we chroot X?"
<pitti> but now I saw it in action
<pitti> and digged through the theory
<pitti> fabbione: it seems that I don't have access to macaroni
<fabbione> pitti: you need to talk with elmo
<pitti> fabbione: anyway, let's start with ppc then
<pitti> fabbione: I do when he returns
<fabbione> otherwise send me the stuff i will build here
* Kamion glares in the general direction of linda
<Kamion> stupid pile of shit deliberately throws away all errors generated about the .changes
<wasabi> Kamion: priority looks good... somehow I can't find the choice to get past the tiemzone. Asking for the Eastern, Central, etc.
<wasabi> base-config     tzconfig/choose_contry_zone/US  select  Central
<Kamion> you've misspelled country there
<wasabi> HAHA
<wasabi> ohh geeze
<wasabi> heh. im at work now... been doing server upgrades all night
<wasabi> I've been awake 24 hours. Forgive me.
<Kamion> np :)
<sid77> hi
<fabbione> the kernel package is insane
<fabbione> i am not sure i want to redo it from scratch
<pitti> seb128: you broke the panel again!!!
<pitti> seb128: I get bombarded with neverending error dialogs
<pitti> seb128: :-)
<seb128> arf
* fabbione compiles yet another kernel
<AndyFitz> okay this is silly.  and I have no idea how to resolve the problem.  gnome doesnt load and all that is shown is the panel position ( left blank ) and the desktops background colour ( not image )
<Treenaks> AndyFitz: apparently logging in a few times fixes it
<AndyFitz> I thought it was gconfd  because even on new user accounts it happens
<Treenaks> no then it's gnome-vfs-daemon
<AndyFitz> sorry ill move this to #ubuntu
<Treenaks> AndyFitz: no, just poke seb128 :)
<seb128> killall gnome-vfs-daemon nautilus gnome-panel trashapplet
<AndyFitz> I've gone as far as to create new user acounts and also to completely reinstall gnome entirely
<AndyFitz> seb128: it must be gnome-session  
<AndyFitz> because I can load xfce4 fine 
<usual> AndyFitz, hey
<AndyFitz> and from there 'sometimes'  I can loat gnome-panel  
<AndyFitz> hiya usual
<usual> AndyFitz, havn't seen ya in a while on gaim.
<usual> doh I got a new screenname, maybe thats why
<AndyFitz> usual, I've been online on jabber icq irc aol msn etc etc 
<usual> AndyFitz, yea, I forgot I changed my screenname
<usual> AndyFitz, hows it goin
<AndyFitz> good but something broke my gnome :P
<usual> what happens?
<AndyFitz> see above
<usual> ahh
<usual> AndyFitz, are your panels there but blank?
<AndyFitz> yep
<AndyFitz> but only sometimes
<AndyFitz> I think if I've uses sudo recently they seem to work   although I'm not sure
<usual> AndyFitz, it happened to me too yesterday and the day before, but it seems fine now
<AndyFitz> uses = used 
<usual> AndyFitz, I nuked the .hastodowithgnomedir's and it seemed to have helped
<AndyFitz> I already tried nuking them
<AndyFitz> the problem came back
<usual> :(
<AndyFitz> it was fixed for one login 
<usual> AndyFitz, hows the icon set coming btw
<usual> looks good
<AndyFitz> usual, thanks I'm reworking them to suit  brisgeek.com/etiquette/
<usual> AndyFitz, full set for gnome?
<AndyFitz> andy.fitzsimon.com.au/etiquette-icons.tar.gz  is there but very incomplete
<usual> AndyFitz, I came across your site for it the other day on gnome-look.org, I like it all but the metacity theme
<AndyFitz> usual:  theres over 2,000 icons in whats considered a full set for gnome :-/  and I keep changing styles / xml rules 
<usual> ah
<AndyFitz> the metacity theme I have in the gimp screenshot ? 
<AndyFitz> its also here http://andy.fitzsimon.com.au/icons.png 
<haggai> pitti: pong :)
<AndyFitz> the hover state for the buttons shows their type
* pitti tries to remember what he wanted to ask haggai
<usual> yea, it looks alot better in thie shot
<usual> AndyFitz, can't wait to give them a try
<usual> nice trashcan
<AndyFitz> roberTO did that for the milk gtk theme  I really like it yeah but was going to make my own pixmap based gtk theme first before considering what metacity to use
<usual> k
<AndyFitz> usual, download and check them out now ,  I'm currently using them at 16x16 on my gnome-panel, they were designed to scale below my other stuff
<usual> AndyFitz, are they avilible somewhere
<AndyFitz> andy.fitzsimon.com.au/etiquette-icons.tar.gz
<AndyFitz> should work
<fabbione> bob2: the BenH patch doesn't even compile
<usual> got em
<fabbione> arch/ppc/platforms/pmac_cache.S: Assembler messages:
<fabbione> arch/ppc/platforms/pmac_cache.S:49: Error: Unrecognized opcode: `dssall'
<fabbione> arch/ppc/platforms/pmac_cache.S:167: Error: Unrecognized opcode: `dssall'
<fabbione> bum
<AndyFitz> the default size is 48x48 like normal pixmap icons.   lila, gartoon and the industrial gnome-vfs icons  are all 92x92 I think
<Kamion> that's odd, it compiled fine for me
<usual> AndyFitz, wierd, I put them in the icon folder, it shows the icon in the theme app, but no icons changed
<robtaylor> hey, is hoary working enough now that its worth upgrading to?
<usual> robtaylor, I use it daily with little trouble
<robtaylor> usual: cool, upgrade it is then ;)
<fabbione> Kamion: i am using -7.diff on davis...
<AndyFitz> usual: that happens sometimes with gnome-themes-manager ,  next login they will work
<usual> ok
<usual> brb
<Kamion> fabbione: which flavour is failing?
<fabbione> power3
<fabbione> at least...
<Kamion> DSSALL is used in other places in arch/ppc/
<fabbione> this is the first one that gets to build
<fabbione> yes i know.. but they don't get compiled on power3 apparently
<Kamion> best ask benh I suspect
<mvo> ping doko
<fabbione> yeah.. they don't get compiled
<fabbione> probably is just an ifdef somewhere
<Kamion> elmo_away: please sync groff 1.18.1.1-5 from Debian
<pitti> Kamion: sorry for the groff upload; I worked through a modem yesterday and didn't bother to check sid again
<Kamion> np
<fabbione> Kamion: can you confirm that the patch is used only by power4 ?
<Kamion> fabbione: deny
<Kamion> power4 != G4
<fabbione> (for what is my understanding of ppc arch anyway)
<Kamion> I don't know if it should be used only by the powerpc flavours; it contains a number of other updates beyond just sleep so I'd be wary of making that assumption
<fabbione> Kamion: how can i identify that via CONFIG_* in the kernel?
<Kamion> don't try, ask benh to fix it :)
<fabbione> Kamion: the other changes are more generic
<Kamion> I know
<fabbione> and they compile (therefor they can be shipped) on all the other arches
<fabbione> ;)
<pitti> so it compiles, it ... ?
<Kamion> CONFIG_6xx is the kernel used on most powerpc systems, including G4 laptops
<Kamion> G5 systems are CONFIG_POWER4
<Kamion> I would imagine we'll see PowerBook G5 systems in a year or two
<fabbione> hopefully in one year or two all this extra patching won't be required 
<fabbione> it looks like that only power3 doesn't have that DSSALL
<Kamion> fabbione: where's DSSALL defined?
<fabbione> Kamion: ENOCLUE
<fabbione> it looks like something in binutils
<fabbione> grep doesn't return anything useful
<srbaker> anyone know of squeak packages for ubuntu?
<srbaker> or, even squeak for debian that i could recompile?
<Treenaks> squeak?
* Simira got her new digicam today :)
<Treenaks> Simira: same one, or cooler one? :P)
<Simira> squeak, Treenaks 
<srbaker> smalltalk environment
<Simira> Treenaks: cooler, of course. The old one isn't in sale anymore
<srbaker> grrrr.
<srbaker> need /etc/apt/sources.list.d
<Treenaks> srbaker: submit a patch
<srbaker> Treenaks, i intend to as soon as i move
<srbaker> it's on my tomboy list :P
<srbaker> speaking of which, i need hoary packages for f-spot and tomboy.
<srbaker> anyone know?
<mvo> srbaker: there is a patch in the bts for /etc/apt/sources.list.d. we'll get it eventually :)
<srbaker> okay.  so now the only thing i need to increase my productivity is moisturizing cream that doesn't make my hands feel greasy
<mvo> srbaker: http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=66325
<srbaker> cool
<robtaylor> carlos: had time to look at accessd yet??
<robtaylor> pitti: would you like to take a look?
<pitti> robtaylor: I'm in a bit of a hurry right now
<pitti> robtaylor: but in general I'd like to look at it
<Kamion> Keybuk: signkey uses "$name's" in a couple of places, which in Perl is the same as $name::s
<Kamion> Keybuk: care to fix that to ${name}'s?
<pitti> robtaylor: is there a tarball/pdf/whatever to look at?
<robtaylor> pitti: no rush, but when you're not busy let me know and i'll take you through it
<pitti> robtaylor: a guided tour? That'll be nice! :-)
<Kamion> Keybuk: (or $name\'s)
<robtaylor> pitti: http://sourcecontrol.net/~rtaylor/ has accessd and dbus packages with extra python bindings
<robtaylor> s/accessd/my accessd arch repo mirror/
<srbaker> how do i completely disable OSS?
<pitti> Hi trulux
<pitti> trulux: I tried your ssp packages. Rock!
<pitti> trulux: it is really cool
<pitti> trulux: to actually put it into Hoary, I'd like to see two things:
<pitti> trulux: 1) rename the packages to *-ssp
<pitti> trulux: 2) modify the gcc-ssp-3.4 wrapper program to include the necessary settings (-lssp and -fstack-protector)
<pitti> trulux: otherwise I played around with it a little, looks nice
<lamont> Kamion: you around?
<trulux> hey pitti
<lamont> seb128: around?
<seb128> lamont: yep
<trulux> pitti, why the name change? nothing is different (in usability terms)
<Kamion> what's this total python b0rkage?
<Kamion> /bin/sh: /usr/bin/mklibs: /usr/bin/python: bad interpreter: No such file or directory
<trulux> the warpper is (almost) ready
<jdahlin> what's up with archive.u.c?
<trulux> just needs packaging
<pitti> trulux: because we already have such a source and binary package? (and, btw, a newer one)
* jdahlin has troubles fetching stuff from it
<trulux> pitti, i can send you the patches
<trulux> in order to get the stuff without pain in newerr versions
<Kamion> trulux: we can't just drop something straight into hoary without seeing how it works elsewhere first
<trulux> what do you think?
<Kamion> a separate package for the meantime is extremely useful.
<Kamion> otherwise you're asking a great deal of faith from us
<pitti> trulux: and it would be cool to integrate -lssp and -fstack-protector into the wrapper, so that these do not need to be specified explicitly
* lamont grumbles at glibc on ia64
<trulux> pitti, that could be done in an easy way
<pitti> trulux: the plan is to have completely separate packages for a while
<pitti> trulux: and when they prove good and we are reasonable sure to 1) not break anything and 2) we have a chance of sustainable support, then we can talk about putting them into main
* pitti has to do some xmas shopping; back in two hours
<pitti> trulux: oh: and gcc-ssp packages should depend on libssp-dev
<trulux> pitti, yes
<pitti> trulux: thanks! see you later
<trulux> pitti, i will send you the patches
<trulux> Kamion, anyway, i did the stuff in the way i thought it's the best
<trulux> and non-enabled by default is the best way
<trulux> i must go too
<srbaker> is it possible to comppletely disable OSS?
<yann__> hi
* yann__ still trying to get in touch with ubuntu developers/webmasters, to *officialize* a french support site for Ubuntu
<Treenaks> yann__: if you find them, tell me how you did it :)
<Treenaks> yann__: I might need it for the Dutch site :)
<yann__> didn't they answer to your emails either ? 
<yann__> Treenaks  > let's see your website :)
<Treenaks> yann__: www.ubuntulinux.nl and www.ubuntu-linux.nl (run by the same guy, need to be integrated)
<tim1> hello
<tim1> is this the right channel to discuss rosetta ?
<sivang> tim1: theres a rosetta chaneel :)
<sivang> tim1: join #rosetta
<mako> Kamion, elmo_away: so theoretically, there is a community council meetining today, right?
<mako> Kamion: apparently, it will be just me and you
<sivang> mako: also wondered about that :)
<mako> elmo seems away and sabdfl as well
<mako> well, there a couple country teams on the agenda
<mako> and one more i suspect if sivang has anything to do with it
<sivang> mako : yes :)
<lamont> elmo is away
<mako> lamont: do you know about sabdfl?
<mako> smurfix: you around?
<Treenaks> well, at least I'm here :)
<lamont> no clue, but wouldn't surprise me, given his 'take some down time' comments at the conf
<mako> i'm trying to decide if we have can go ahead with the meeting
<mako> lamont: do you know elmo's story
<mako> lamont: basically, will he be back in 1.25h?
<lamont> doko!!
<yann__> Treenaks  > www.ubuntu-fr.org
<yann__> :)
<lamont> mako: dunno.  ISTR him saying something about a week of holiday right after the conf
<mako> hmm.. ok
<mako> well.. i can call mark and see if he's gonna be around at all this week
<mako> otherwise, this stuff will be put off until at least after new years
<mako> Kamion: it may be our chance to ram through otherwise controverisal proposal
<sivang> mako: I reckon most people need some time off after the conference, we could probably manage with only some brief discussions for country teams and others..
<yann__> Treenaks > how many mails did you sent? is it worth trying again? :)
<Treenaks> yann__: none yet, because the merging isn't done yet
<yann__> we've got a forum that's already open, the site is comnig soon... but still can't get in touch with ubuntu's team
<sivang> enrico: hi!
<enrico> sivang: hi!
<Kamion> mako: hmm. does two out of four count as a majority?
<smurfix> mako: yep, just came home
<haggai> is Jane still on holiday?
<Kamion> mako: elmo said he'd be away from tomorrow, which I took to mean that he'd be here today
<mako> well, mark will l come
<mako> i just talked to him on the phone
<Kamion> ah, ok
<Keybuk> hmm, hal is working today.  yesterday it refused to play, today I get an "IAUDIO" window popping up.  strange thing, I think my camera actually kills it
<smurfix> mako: 
<mako> smurfix: want to prepare a short thing about country teams goals and such to present at the meeting
<mako> smurfix: i'm going to prepare a short summary from the nm bof
<smurfix> mako: I'll be at the meeting
<mako> smurfix: awesome.. i'll put an introduction on the agneda
<sivang> mako: are you going to discuss the NM process on the CC meeting?
<zul> when is the meeting?
<smurfix> OK, I'll say a few words about country team stuff then
<smurfix> zul: 1600 UTC
<yann__> \o/
<zul> smurfix: k thanks
<lamont> haggai: my understanding is that Jane is still on holiday.  she is checking email occasionally, apparently
<Treenaks> how long do these meetings take, usually?
<sivang> Treenaks: hmm, that depends :)
<Treenaks> minutes, hours, days, weeks
<sivang> Treenaks: there have been ones that took more then 2 hours :)
<Treenaks> sivang: I've heard of 5-minute ones
<sivang> Treenaks: there have beem, well, TB meetings tend to take much much longer.
<Kamion> shortest has been 15 minutes IIRC
<Treenaks> my boss won't like a >1hr one (closing down the building, setting the alarm and stuff :))
<zul> Treenaks: tell your boss to be patient :)
<Treenaks> zul: 8)
<mako> sivang: i'd like to 
<haggai> lamont: thanks :)
<mako> are there any NM's for the meeting that need CC approval
<mako> haggai: did we approve you yet?
<mako> or do we need to?
<haggai> mako: yup, I'm all done
<mako> good
<Treenaks> mako: NMs or "ubuntites"? 
<mako> there were a handful of people that raised their hand at the NM meeting
<mako> Treenaks: sorry, "UBUNTITES"
<Treenaks> mako: I was one of those :)
<mako> we can add you to the list
<Treenaks> OK, great
<mako> Treenaks: actually, go add yourself :)
<mako> CommunityCouncilAgenda
<Treenaks> mako: hm, need to hack together a wiki page on myself then :)
<Treenaks> probably
<sivang> mako: development maintainers needs be approved by technical contribs right?
<Kamion> sivang: by the tech board
<sivang> Kamion: ah ok :)
<ChrisH> mako: Did you find a chance to review the NM draft?
<mako> ChrisH: sure.. it will have to be super quick
<smurfix> mako: next time write "smurf" instead of misspelling my name please ;-)
<sivang> mako: could you reminde me what being an UBUNTITES mean? :)
<mako> i spelled it right once and then mispelled it when i lost my change, i swear :)
<lamont> fabbione: you around?
<mako> sivang: basically you can vote and such but not upload packages
<mako> sivang: i think you should put yourself down for that
<mako> people with visible contributions to the community who want to be enfranchised
<sivang> mako: ok, I'll go list my name there - already have a page :)
<sivang> mako: but there is not "new ubuntites" page :)
<Treenaks> sivang: 1 second
<mako> well, make one, it's a wiki after all :)
<sivang> ok, let's rock it on! (as jdub says )
<Treenaks> there's an entry on the agenda page now
<Treenaks> sivang: edit now :)
<sivang> Treenaks: done:)
<sivang> mako: what about doc maintainership? is it the same like being a ubuntites?
* Kamion tortures signkey.pl until it ignores uids he's already signed
<mako> sivang: yes
<mako> Kamion: i want that patch
<Kamion> currently it's too horrible for words and hardcodes my key ... :)
<Treenaks> Kamion: package it up when you fix that :)
<Kamion> (well, keyid, anyway)
<smurfix> Kamion: So use $ENV{SIGN_KEYID} and complain if that's not set ;-)
<mojo> can some ppl here confirm this bug for me: (not sure my mistake or bug)
<mojo> I have a error msg in synaptic each time I update
<mojo> [Invalid UTF-8]  Could not parse file '/usr/share/applications/ooo645calc.desktop':
<mojo>   desktop entry contain line 'Comment[ca] =Fulla de c\xc3| lcul d'OpenOffice.org' which is not UTF-8
<Mithrandir> mojo: it's a known issue
<yann__> wow, if this is a place to report bugs, i got a bug in gthumb (warty) :)
<Mithrandir> yann__: bugzilla.ubuntu.com
<yann__> Mithrandir > i know, i know :|
<yann__> ok i'll try.
<mojo> thx for the info, at least I know it's not my mistake
<fabbione> lamont: now
<fabbione> Kamion: the ibook thingy can compile only on 6xx
<fabbione> so powerpc kernels
<Kamion> ok
* fabbione run another gcc stress test on davis
* fabbione goes and paint a wall
* fabbione since watching the kernel compilation IS boring
<sivang> smurfix: ping
<pitti> fabbione: will the next kernel build system include an animated colorful cartoon strip to make it more interesting?
<smurfix> sivang: 
<sivang> smurfix: that in jap or chineese?
<sivang> :)
<sivang> smurfix: anyway, we still don't have an ubuntu-il mailing list :)
<smurfix> sivang: That's "pong".
<sivang> smurfix: also, do we already have anything for making derived distros wrt to locality?
<sivang> smurfix: in what lang? :)
<smurfix> sivang: Chinese of course.
<smurfix> sivang: I dunno wo's responsible for the mailing lists, I just know it's not me ;-)
<smurfix> who's
<smurfix> sivang: easily making derived distros is on the agends for post-hoary.
<Kamion> sigh, need to add python-minimal to debootstrap as well as python2.4-minimal now ...
<tseng> has anyone noticed problems with the security update login package in warty?
<tseng> google and gmane say no
<pitti> tseng: no, what do you mean?
<pitti> Hi elmo
<tseng> booting it gives me a big dump of cant execute /sbin/agetty
<pitti> elmo: Mark asked me to rename debstriptranslations to pkgstriptranslations
<tseng> then it respawns to fast, and init gives up completely
<pitti> elmo: I guess that means that debstriptranslations will be removed and I upload a new package pktstriptranslations?
<pitti> tseng: This is not a login problem
<elmo> pitti: just upload the new package for now
<pitti> tseng: this rather sounds like the udev race condition
<elmo> preferably soon, as I'm on holiday from tomorrow on
<tseng> pitti: oh =/
<pitti> elmo: okay, I'll do
<pitti> tseng: sometimes the text consoles just say byebye
<pitti> tseng: BTW, we did not make a security update of 'login'. What do you mean in particular?
<bob2> fabbione: hrm, ok
<tseng> well i did a clean install of warty, then dist-upgrade from security, universe, and main
<tseng> and it grabbed a new login
<Kamion> elmo: could you sync groff 1.18.1.1-5 from Debian please?
<tseng> pitti: sorry its a bit hard to report better, as its not finishing init
<elmo> Kamion: done
<Kamion> thanks
<Kamion> fabbione: the silo-installer/silo thing is fixed in d-i svn
<pitti> elmo: I uploaded pkgstriptranslations.
<tseng> pitti: i found my bug.. inittab is all wrong
<pitti> tseng: ugh, did you modify it or is it wrong by default?
<tseng> i didnt modify it, not sure how it got this way
<tseng> will one from hoary do?
<pitti> tseng: what's wrong with the inittab?
<tseng> its calling /sbin/agetty
<tseng> and /sbin/rc
<tseng> which dont even exist
<tseng> i think someone copied over it
<pitti> tseng: I doubt that inittab says agetty by default
<pitti> tseng: this would have breaked on each and every installation
<tseng> yeah someone was f'ing with it
<tseng> i appologize
<pitti> tseng: no worries :-)
<pitti> tseng: were you able to restore it?
<pitti> tseng: I can send you the default version if necessary
<tseng> yes, but im totally baffled as to who wouldve copied another distros inittab over this one
<tseng> heh, i have one here now that i know what is up
<elmo> Kamion: I'm beginning to think grub and scrubbing disks REALLY don't agree
<Kamion> elmo: hmm?
<elmo> I just got that stupid grub failure when reinstalling  a DL380
* Kamion uses join(1) in anger
<elmo> then again, lilo doesn't work either.  meh.
<Kamion> scrubbing disks?
<elmo> today sucks.
<elmo> kamion: when you first create a RAID array and it syncs thems
<Kamion> it would probably be good for me to learn something about RAID, wouldn't it?
<elmo> yeah, I'm getting exactly the same error as on the Dell's
<elmo> in that bug-from-hell
<Kamion> is that the HPT370 one?
<elmo> nah
<elmo> one sec
<Kamion> locales suck
<elmo> hmm, I closed the bug.  go me.
<jdub> it's your birthday.
<maswan> elmo: did you see my note about bittorrent tracker?
<elmo> maswan: the port thing?
<maswan> elmo: yeah
<elmo> maswan: yeah, thanks
<elmo> Kamion: 2211
<Kamion> elmo: same failure mode as at the start of that bug?
<elmo> right
<elmo> gar, and it's going take eons to scrub half a fricking terabyte
<Kamion> can you arrange to add the debug command to grub-installer's grub invocation?
<Kamion> or even run the grub commands by hand in the grub shell
* lamont goes on a date with his 9 yearold.  back in a few hours.
<elmo> dump (hd0,0)/boot/grub/stage1 /tmp/grbdfsbdfsgaz is failing
<elmo> with "file not found"
<lamont> anyone need anything before I run?
<lamont> oh. elmo's here. cool
<elmo> Kamion: there's some strace's in p.u.c/~james that mdz and I looked at before, there's very little difference between working and broken; I'll try and get some more tho
<Kamion> grub straces are depressingly uninformative sometimes :(
<Kamion> as mdz said in the bug, it looks like working-strace was when booted from the hard disk?
<elmo> right
* pitti pats his new PaX enabled kernel
<tseng> yay for pax!
* Kamion wonders how many locales he can enable on this box before it explodes
<Kamion> elmo: I'm kind of way out of ideas :-(
<pitti> tseng: it fends off the buffer overflow exploit as well as SSP
* lamont bbl
<tseng> pitti: im very familiar with pax
<pitti> tseng: what do you think, is either one (ssp/pax) already enough or should we strive to get both?
<tseng> pitti: well, both is ideal
<tseng> because pax has 0 protection against ret2libc
<tseng> well, not 0, just adds security-by-obscurity
<pitti> tseng: I will put a PaX enabled kernel into universe when I finished the porting to 2.6.9
<tseng> oh wow
<elmo> Kamion: no prob - can you remind me the equivalent of grub-installer for lilo tho?  I need at least one bootloader on this thing :)
<pitti> tseng: do you happen to know somebody who already did that
<tseng> pitti: yes
<pitti> tseng: s//?/
<tseng> the author
<pitti> tseng: on the hp there is only a patch for 2.6.7
<tseng> yes
<Kamion> elmo: lilo-installer
<fabbione> elmo: lilo-installer?
<fabbione> argh ;)
<Kamion> anna should install it by default
<pitti> tseng: the rejections are not bad, but cause a bit of work
<elmo> hmm, no lilo in the base system atm
<elmo> I guess the "Install lilo" step is spassing out real early
<Kamion> elmo: doesn't need to be, lilo-installer will apt-install it as needed
<elmo> oh
<Kamion> if it's used
<elmo> eh, sorry, to be stupid, but you're saying I should be able to just run 'lilo-installer' from shell?
<Kamion> no - are you in the d-i environment?
<elmo> yes
<Kamion> back up to the main menu and select the menu item to install lilo
<fabbione> elmo: *cough*sparc*cough* are you having some fun at the dc?
<elmo> I tried that
<Kamion> you can try udpkg --configure lilo-installer too
<elmo> it just says an error occured, and there's nothing helpful on the log tailing screen
<elmo> what file is that thing tailing?
<Kamion> tty3 tails /var/log/messages, tty4 tails /var/log/syslog
<jdub> /bin/sh: /usr/bin/apt-listchanges: /usr/bin/python: bad interpreter: No such file or directory
<jdub> 
<elmo> sweeet
<Kamion> fixed in new python-defaults
<Kamion> or install python-minimal
<elmo> Kamion: ok, so it's just saying lilo-installer exited with status 1, meh
<Kamion> elmo: stick 'set -x' at the top of the postinst
<jdub> Kamion: probably getting that in this upgrade
<elmo> LOL
<elmo> it's looking for part156378345346
<Kamion> welcome to d-i debugging
<Kamion> wow
<elmo> (or so)
<elmo> Kamion: do the final releases have "Unofficial" in the README.diskdefines ?
<Kamion> can you see what bootfs_devfs and bootfs are being set to?
<elmo> this'd be so much easier if we had wireless in here and I could do this without the to-fro
<jdub> Errors were encountered while processing:
<jdub>  linda
<jdub> E: Sub-process /usr/bin/dpkg returned an error code (1)
<jdub> heh
<Kamion> elmo: no
<Kamion> that'd be linda wanting python ...
<elmo> ah, okay, maybe I should start from the beginning and burn a fresh CD then
<Kamion> well, I dunno what'd have been fixed, but I suppose it can't hurt to try ...
<Kamion> elmo: where's the line with Unofficial?
<elmo> DISKNAME says "Unofficial binary-i386" in it at the end
<elmo> fabbione: :(
<Kamion> #define DISKNAME  Ubuntu 4.10 "Warty Warthog" - Preview i386 Binary-1
<elmo> this is just a CD which I had lieing around, it could date back to like, June.. 
<fabbione> elmo: good luck.. 
<Kamion> I can't even remember when I removed Unofficial; certainly before the preview, but I'm not sure when
<elmo> ok, trashing and burning fresh from releases.u.c
<fabbione> pitti: ping?
<Kamion> Automatically selecting en_GB.UTF-8 locale in addition to en_GB.
<Kamion> that text look OK?
<jon1012> hi :)
<Kamion> any suggestions for how to record that /etc/locale.gen has been migrated to UTF-8? if the user later removes the UTF-8 locales, that choice should be respected
<jon1012> someone when the mono-assemblies-arch and mono-assemblies-base 1.04-1 will be available ?
<jon1012> (one the hoary repositories)
<jon1012> beucause impossible to use any mono package until then :/
<jon1012> (especially monodevelop)
<tseng> mono apps work for me.
<jon1012> mmh... when have you updated the packages for the last time ? :/
<jon1012> try to update or reinstall monodevelop and you will see :(
<jon1012> everything is broken because these two package are not here
<jon1012> mmh they are here but in version 1.0.2-1 while mono-jit asks for 1.0.4-1
<jon1012> :/
<tseng> from archive.ubuntu.com?
<jon1012> yes
<tseng> no such problem here.
<jon1012> ?
<jon1012> I update my apt-get each day to see if there is a fix...
<jon1012> but didn't see it :(
<jon1012> (in hoary)
<elmo> fabbione: please shout when you're done with davis
<Simira> anyone else got some tips for how to mount my digital camera?
<Treenaks> Simira: what kind of cam is it
<Simira> Canon powershot
<elmo> Kamion: doh, same error with fresh CD, meh
<mooch> open wifi aps make baby jesus happy
<Simira> Treenaks: : you had a suggestion, or you just wanted to know about my new cam?
<Treenaks> Simira: canon powershot?
<Treenaks> Simira: open gthumb, file -> import photos
<Treenaks> Simira: it'll be detected automagically
<ogra> Simira: doent it getmounted automatically ?
<ogra> +s
<Treenaks> ogra: powershots use PTP.. they're not mass-storage :(
<Simira> hum
<Simira> *tries*
<ogra> Treenaks: bah....
<Simira> I like the cam, though
<ogra> Treenaks: i love my ole olympus
<Treenaks> Simira: which one? the A85?
<Treenaks> ogra: Good Ole'ympus ;)
<Simira> no, only an A400. A little bit better than the old one.
<ogra> *g*
<Treenaks> Simira: you've seen mine right? that's a A75
<ogra> Simira: was yours insured ?
<Simira> yes, it was
<ogra> wow, lucky girl;)
<Simira> well, not the cam, but my travel insurance covered it
* ogra is wondering why there are so few gallerys linked on the wiki.....
<Treenaks> ogra: mine is ;)
<Treenaks> I'm doing 100M/day on it 8)
<ogra> probably there should be a place to upload for all the ppl that can not pay for the traffic.....
<ogra> Treenaks: looks similar for mine
<Simira> it won't detect my camera :-/
<ogra> but there were loads of ppl taking pictures.....
<Simira> bob2 hasn't put up his, and Tollef. And Mako. Among others
<Treenaks> bob2 should :)
<amu> is there a way the xorg config could be done by xorg itself? without a user input, or i've to run the old mkxf86config?
<Treenaks> Simira: I've seen tollef's pics..
<Treenaks> Simira: or at least some of those
<Simira> yep
<Treenaks> amu: dpkg-reconfigure xserver-xorg ?
<Simira> hm
<Simira> *grumble*
<mako> Simira: i won't until i get home
<ogra> Simira: yep....he has made a really beutiful one of me in the bar
<Simira> :) hehe
<ogra> +a
<Treenaks> amu: otherwise: "dexconf"
<Simira> hm... but I still can't get my camera on Ubuntu... hrmf
<Treenaks> Simira: it's not detected by gthumb?
<Treenaks> Simira: it should be in "play" mode, otherwise it won't be detected
<Treenaks> (if it's like mine)
<amu> Treenaks: it works also if there's no debconf data? need it for the livecd
<Simira> hm, ok
<Simira> yay
<Simira> it worked
<ogra> hmm, yesterday i saw daniels saying that the detection stuff is done by xorg itself.....probably he changed something
<Simira> mako: you're still stuck in Spain???
<mako> Simira: stuck is perhaps not the best term
<Simira> ah, Daniels also took a lot of picks
<mako> Simira: i'm in valencia staying with jordi
<ogra> heh
<amu> ogra: good question, daniels is away
<Simira> mako: so, holiday-vacationing, eh?
<ogra> amu: i heard he is on holiday now....
<pitti> tseng: guess what? the whole grsecurity patch applies cleanly against the patched Ubuntu kernel source :-)
<tseng> pitti: wonderful, i had a feeling it would
<tseng> im using it in a pretty big patchset myself
<pitti> tseng: the back of my head always reminded me about long-winded discussions in Debian about the non-applicability to Debian kernels...
<pitti> fabbione: around and have a minute?
<pitti> tseng: oops, there are two rejections
<wasabi_> yay!
<wasabi_> got my cd's just now
<wasabi_> wow this are slick
<fabbione> re
<fabbione> elmo: ANYTIME!
<fabbione> elmo: next time don't wait for me... just kick me out :-)
<fabbione> pitti: yeah
<elmo> fabbione: don't worry there's no rush, I'm probably only half way through
* fabbione fasten his seatbelts
<fabbione> elmo: it's 100% your :-)
<fabbione> i was only doing a test compilation
<fabbione> nothing really too seriuos... just the ibookg4sleep1337patch
<fabbione> in the worst case i will tell ppc users to blame GTK
<elmo> lol
<ogra> heh
<fabbione> pitti: PONG!
<fabbione> pitti: DING DONG DANG!
<pitti> fabbione: sorry, still at the phone
<fabbione> Description:
<fabbione> Remote exploit for IPSwitch WS_FTP version 5.03 that binds a shell to port 4444.
<fabbione> CUTE!
<ajmitch_> morning
<pitti> fabbione: back
<ajmitch_> pitti: thanks for doing those libssp packages :)
<pitti> fabbione: is there an easy way to provide a hacked kernel image (with new deb names) without duplicating the linux-source source package?
<fabbione> pitti: yo
<pitti> ajmitch_: no problem, easy package
<fabbione> pitti: build-dep on linux-source-2.6.9
<ajmitch_> pitti: what will be harder is if we try & get selinux in, and enabled by default
<fabbione> pitti: the one that gives you the tar.bz2 in /usr/src
<fabbione> pitti: but i don't recall if it has patches or not.. you will have to check on that
<pitti> fabbione: basically I want to use all the Ubuntu patches, add one, change the configuration and the deb names
<fabbione> in case... you have linux-patches something
<fabbione> pitti: yup... i got that
<fabbione> pitti: you still need the same build-deps
<pitti> fabbione: okay, I will play around with that
<pitti> fabbione: basically I would need a binary package that ships the source's dpatches
<fabbione> no.. you just need to ship your patch
<fabbione> all the others are in the source or -linux-patch
<trulux> hi there
<trulux> pitti, woo woo!
<trulux> :)
<pitti> hi trulux 
<pitti> fabbione: ah, cool
<ajmitch_> hi trulux 
<fabbione> check all the pkgs.. there is everything you need
<fabbione> the only thing i am not sure we ship are the config
<fabbione> in that case i will provide them for you.. no big deal for that
<trulux> hey ajmitch_
<trulux> ajmitch_, i think we cantry to write a little schedule for the SELinux work
<pitti> fabbione: I need to change the config anyway; patching yours would be nice, but just copy&change is fine by now
<ajmitch_> trulux: sure
<fabbione> pitti: ok.. i will tell you some little secrets about configs tomorrow.. i am watching a movie now ;)
<pitti> fabbione: oh, then I won't disturb you further
<pitti> fabbione: enjoy! :-)
<fabbione> pitti: thanks man
<fabbione> have a good night
<pitti> night!
<ogra> fabbione: have fun :)
<seb128> 'n
<seb128> oups
<seb128> 'night
<trulux> ajmitch_, fine
<trulux> ajmitch_, why not start a page named SELinux on Debian at the hardened debian wiki
<trulux> ?
<ajmitch_> go ahead :)
<trulux> heh
<trulux> let me start a draft
<pitti> trulux: btw, I'm currently at porting the grsecurity patch to the Ubuntu kernel
<trulux> pitti, did you noticed that 2.0.3 is for 2.6.9??
<trulux> it's a spender's test patch
<pitti> trulux: yup, that's the one I use
<trulux> ok
<ajmitch_> I don't think that grsecurity & selinux will work in the same kernel at all :)
<ajmitch_> you'd need to choose between them
<pitti> ajmitch_: not at the same time
<trulux> pitti, don't use it by now
<pitti> ajmitch_: but at least I like grsecurity much more than SELinux, so I'm happy :-)
<trulux> ajmitch_, err, it depends on how the hooks are used and implemented
<trulux> ajmitch_, we are strange guys here ... don't get sad by this, grsec is much more usable :(
<trulux> but does a diff thing anyway
<ajmitch_> iirc grsec may even patch out the LSM hooks from the kernel
<pitti> ajmitch_: in theory you _could_ have two chained MAC systems, though :-)
<pitti> ajmitch_: and grsec does not use LSM
<ajmitch_> only if you were brave and/or stupid :)
<ajmitch_> I know that
<ajmitch_> but I mean that grsec explicitly disables the functionality that selinux uses
<pitti> ajmitch_: I don't know whether it would work, and I don't really care
<pitti> ajmitch_: actually I mostly care for PaX
<ajmitch_> it doesn't help that the grsec dev is rather disagreeable ;)
<pitti> ajmitch_: but since grsecurity applies reasonably well to our kernel, why not take the full patch :-)
<ajmitch_> selinux is already enabled in upstream debian kernels, packages are in sid
<pitti> ajmitch_: the default Ubuntu kernel is also compiled with SELInux (but not enabled)
<pitti> ajmitch_: same as in Sid
<ajmitch_> as long as you're just wanting to have another kernel :)
<pitti> ajmitch_: right now this is not intended to replace our default kernel anyway :-)
<pitti> ajmitch_: right now it will become an additional kernel in universe, for people wanting PaX
<ajmitch_> iirc gentoo people had PaX & selinux working together
<pitti> ajmitch_: yes, this should be entirely possible
<trulux> pitti, i have the selinux hooks for pax
<trulux> will be inside my backport
<trulux> which stills is in really panic-state
<trulux> (that one which means nothing even compiles without brainfucking and so on)
<wasabi_> So I suspose my next step is going to be building a kerberos 5 .udeb.
<wasabi_> And d-i piece.
<trulux> pitti, btw, what about the gcc patches?
<pitti> trulux: will look at them; right now I still have your packages installed
<trulux> ok, fine
<gilligan_> hi
<elmo> can someone do me a favour and try logging into the website?
<trulux> elmo, hey
<pitti> elmo: yes
<trulux> elmo, did you noticed my enhyancement report to the bugzilla?
<elmo> trulux: the binutils thing?
<elmo> pitti: yes, it works or yes, you can try? :)
<pitti> elmo: works for me
<trulux> pitti, we need to have elmo including my PT_PAX_FLAGS stuff inside binutils for having good PaX support
<pitti> elmo: now both
<trulux> (soft mode)
<elmo> pitti: excellent
<trulux> elmo, yes
<elmo> pitti: for your next trick, can you try rosetta?
<pitti> elmo: sure
<gilligan_> have there been any sound related changes to hoary recently ? just did a apt-get upgrade and have a completely sound-free system running now hehe.. ( sorry to bug the dev channel but the general channel is mostly clueless.. )
<pitti> elmo: "You are logged in"
<pitti> elmo: works
<elmo> pitti: sweet, thanks
<pitti> trulux: hmm, right now I use the legacy ELF header marking
<pitti> trulux: this is way less intrusive
<gilligan_> i get silence from whatever player i try - no error messages tho.. and nothing seems to be muted according to alsamixer
<elmo> trulux: sorry, I won't have a chance to look at that till after Christmas - I'm busy in the data centre right now, and on holiday after that
<pitti> gilligan_: is esd still running
<pitti> gilligan_: ?
<pitti> gilligan_: and check in gstreamer-properties that esd is used
<gilligan_> esd running
<gilligan_> .. /usr/bin/esd -nobeeps
<pitti> gilligan_: check whether your mixer now has a "DRC" setting which is low
<gilligan_> pitti: DRC seems to be off
<gilligan_> and DRC Range = 0
<pitti> gilligan_: can you enable it? This DRC thingy bite me a while ago
<gilligan_> hum.wonder how ;)
<trulux> elmo, data center?
<gilligan_> esd is set to input & output in gstreamer preferences btw
<elmo> trulux: working on our machines
<trulux> elmo, we are looking for someone to support us giving a development machine
<trulux> sponsoring
<trulux> because we are running on a bit bad-organized network, without a main development center
<ogra> elmo there are a lot ppl on #ubuntu, ust trying rosetta
<gilligan_> elmo: ah.. DRC was it..
<pitti> gilligan_: works now?
<gilligan_> elmo: now i get super-crappy sound but i guess i just have to play around with the mixer a bit
<gilligan_> elmo: thanks
<elmo> ogra: when I rebooted it?  sweet :(
<ogra> hmm... some are a little upset....
<pitti> gilligan_: I had this crappy and silent sound, too; for me it helped to set DRC to about 75%
<ogra> saving while rebooting.....hm
<gilligan_> pitti: "DRC" or "DRC Range" ? my "DRC" is still off .. "DRC Range" is set to 75
<pitti> gilligan_: don't know exactly
<ironwolf> did apt get borked in hoary?  I keep getting "W: GPG error: http://archive.ubuntu.com hoary Release: Unknown error executing gpgv" everytime I do apt-get update.  normal channel doesn't have help to offer.  Any idea where to look for the error text?
<ajmitch_> trulux: so what will you try & push? grsec or selinux?
<trulux> grsec as soft option
<trulux> selinux for the big guys ;D
<ajmitch_> soft option?
<pitti> ironwolf: ping mvo tomorrow; he recently introduced signature verification in apt
<trulux> yes, the easiest to deploy one
<ajmitch_> do you find selinux hard to deploy?
<trulux> ajmitch_, not until we get it in the right way
<trulux> it's a MAC system with TE and so on, it's more difficult to deployt than simple grsec
<pitti> ajmitch_: one big problem is that selinux requires a bunch of patched base packages, which grsec doesn't
<ajmitch_> pitti: as long as you don't have to maintain the patches it's ok :)
<ajmitch_> especially if the patches get merged upstream
#ubuntu-devel 2005-01-02
<ajmitch_> one good thing is that a lot of development is being done by redhat & other employees
<ajmitch_> so they can shake out a lot of issues
<tseng> hi trulux 
<tseng> hi pitti 
<pitti> ?
<trulux> tseng, w00!
<trulux> :)
<bluefoxicy> alright
<bluefoxicy> https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/IdeaPool  I put some recommendations under the "enhancements" section about the child safe mode.  I really suggest looking into Dan's Guardian for that.
<bluefoxicy> I've made my machine actually hijack outgoing HTTP packets and forward to Squid.  You might be able to do the same with DG (which means root controls the local machine's http proxying); or you might just be able to point squid at DG
<ironwolf> thanks pitti
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-devel:elmo] : Ubuntu development -- ARE WE NEARLY THERE YET? -- general discussion and support on #ubuntu | Want to help Hoary? see https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/HoaryGoals | *.ubuntu.com going down for reboot
<Burgundavia_> hey all
<sivang> hey Burgundavia_ , I was just on my way to bed.
<Burgundavia_> I am still in transit
<sivang> Burgundavia_: you are ? god..
<Burgundavia_> I am in Minneapllis-St. Paul airport
<Burgundavia_> My last flight leaves in 2 hours
<sivang> Burgundavia_: I knew the flight back to the us was only 13 hours from europ to us
<sivang> ah sorry, canada
<Burgundavia_> ya, but I had to stay a night in London
<sivang> Burgundavia_: ah, what for? :)
<Burgundavia_> I couldn't get a flight out of Barcelona soon enough to catch the flights westbound out of London, whcih stop at abou 2pm
<sivang> so you're basically 3 days on the road?
<sivang> but hey, it's already one week _after_ the _end_ of the conf..
<sivang> wierd
<Burgundavia_> no it is not
<Burgundavia_> oh, I spent a day and a half in Barcelona, to see the city
<sivang> ah nice
<Burgundavia_> it was nice
<Burgundavia_> now comes the marathon home
<sivang> Burgundavia_: anyway, this is probably off topic or more suited at u-doc :) and I'm off anyway..
<Burgundavia_> I still have a night to stay in Vancouver
<Burgundavia_> cya
<sivang> Burgundavia_: cheers!
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-devel:elmo__] : Ubuntu development -- ARE WE NEARLY THERE YET? -- general discussion and support on #ubuntu | Want to help Hoary? see https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/HoaryGoals
<elmo__> everything should be back to normal, please report any problems
<jdub> I just committed to CVS support for running a local copy of BIND 9 which
<jdub> acts as a caching nameserver.  Actually, I guess I shouldn't say
<jdub> "support", because it's actually now required.
<jdub> 
<jdub> ^ NetworkManager
<ogra> someone should make really loud noise about the apt-gpg stuff in the community.... the ppl seem quite lost
<jdub> 'someone'? 'stuff'?
<ogra> apt-gpg seems to be in defult hoary now.....
<jdub> yes?
<ogra> if there is no gpg set up you get an error 
<jdub> you get a confirmation request
<ogra> so the people not knowing what gpg is are quite lost on the error
<ogra> there were several questions in #ubuntu tonight
<sivang> ogra: what is apt-gpg ? :)
<ogra> sivang: still awake ? :) http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/AptAuthenticationInstructionsForHoary
<sivang> ogra: yes, fighting with the gtk tutorial :)
<ogra> sivang: hero.... go on !! :) its worth it for any other language :)
<sivang> ogra: hehe thanks :) I will have faith as you encourage me :)
<sivang> ogra: so how do I get hold of the archive.ubuntu.com public keys?
<ogra> http://keyserver.mine.nu/pks/lookup?op=vindex&fingerprint=on&search=0x40976EAF437D05B5
<sivang> jdub: are we requiring users to have a caching nameserver o their local systems?
<sivang> jdub: as per NetworkMangaer?
<jdub> sivang: no
<elmo> ogra: there's an ubuntu-keyring package
<elmo> or should be
<sivang> jdub: ah sorry, then I didn't understand what you said there about NetworkMangaer
<elmo> bleh, in universe
<ogra> elmo: ah great.... got no hoary handy atm :)
<sivang> elmo: shouldn't it be in main?
<ogra> elmo: universe ?
<elmo> yes, it should be in main - mvo needs to propose it etc.
<jdub> sivang: humour.
<sivang> jdub: :-)
<ogra> so what about squid inclusion in firefox ?
<sivang> ogra: the humor continues? :)
<ogra> or this one as january-calendar: http://www.grawert.net/mataro/img100.jpeg 
<ogra> dressmen *g*
<sivang> ogra: I'll propose that to the artwork council :)
<ogra> hehe
<calc> anyone here familiar with cpufreq from the driver side?
<kergan> nope
<calc> is it possible to eg write your own speed tables?
<calc> oh :\
<kergan> you probly can
<kergan> id asume you could
<calc> ok
<calc> the athlon64's only have three speeds set up from factory but it appears it wouldn't be too hard to make my own set for each fid
<kergan> you know what exactly to add
* Kamion ponders uploading glibc with scary auto-locale-transitioning code
<diego> hi all. is anyone working on a graphical runlevel editor? otherwise, i'd be interested in writing one with pygtk
<chrisa> I recall seeing a bunch of those on freshmeat already
<jdub> diego: gnome-system-tools ships one, but we don't enable or support it.
<diego> ah
<diego> jdub: why no support?
<jdub> because "editing run levels" is not something users actually want to do
<jamesh> diego: there is a slightly broken one in gnome-system-tools, and there is also Fedora's system-config-services (written in Python) that might work with some changes
<jdub> the interesting element of it is enabling and disabling particular services, generally sharing-oriented
<jamesh> diego: of course, if you aren't running any services neither is very useful
<jdub> a good model to look at is the mac os x network and services stuff
<diego> jamesh: well, i don't use some of the stuff that's loading on boot and the boot times are pretty bad right now.
<diego> jdub: hmm...don't have a mac around :(
<jdub> diego: you won't fix much of the boot time issue by disabling unnecessary services on warty
<jamesh> diego: a number of distro team guys have made pretty big improvements that should be in Hoary
<jamesh> diego: see planet.ubuntu.com :)
<jdub> diego: hoary will have massive improvements on that front (unrelated to disabling services)
<diego> i'm on hoary
<jdub> wait a bit :)
<diego> in any case, loading RAID for me is pointless, i'm on a laptop
<jdub> and it costs you nothing :)
<Treenaks> diego: well, you could make an USB Floppy RAID
<jdub> (besides a scerrick of ram for mdadm, which will be fixed to not load in hoary)
<jamesh> diego: if you want to see where the time is being spent, you might want to play with the bootchart program
<diego> Treenaks: good call
<jdub> diego: there are a bunch of things that are essentially noops during startup
<Treenaks> diego: http://ohlssonvox.8k.com/fdd_raid.htm
<jamesh> google thinks I might have meant butchart
<jdub> diego: none of them are things that normal users would want to enable/disable
<jamesh> diego: http://www.klika.si/ziga/bootchart/
<diego> Treenaks: ty, that's horrifying
<diego> jamesh: i don't think i have the kind of knowledge to do anything about it myself even if i do know where slowdowns are
<jamesh> diego: sure.  A program like bootchart can also tell you which bits of the boot process aren't impacting the speed
<jamesh> so you know which parts aren't worth optimising
<diego> what i'm trying to say is that i wouldn't know how to optimize in the first place
<jamesh> if you optimise a section of the code that runs for 5% of the time, you can get at best a 5% speed increase
<Kamion> jdub: can I change the seeds to replace the remaining python2.3 stuff with python2.4?
<Kamion> of course we'll have to wait for elmo to get back from holiday to do the universe->main moves, but still
<Kamion> lamont: could you requeue pyrex? it should build with a fixed python.
<Kamion> then dbus will build with a small build-dep tweak ...
<lamont> Kamion: 'k
<lamont> hrmpf.  parted is ftbfs on 64-bit: amiga partitions cast pointers to int
<bob2> haha
<jamesh> bob2: any chance of getting this patch applied? https://bugzilla.ubuntu.com/show_bug.cgi?id=4889
<jamesh> without it, bazaar is also broken on 64-bit systems :)
* lamont sleeps.  ELATENIGHT
<bob2> jamesh: hrm, I thought we were autobuliding on amd64
<bob2> but seems not
<Kamion> lamont: I know, working with Sven to fix
<jamesh> bob2: I only saw i386 and PPC builds on bazaar.canonical.com
<Kamion> is anyone empowered to do universe->main moves while elmo's away?
<fabbione> morning
<fabbione> afaik no
<fabbione> Kamion: iirc germinate is parsed automatically isn't it?
<Kamion> universe->main moves aren't automatic
<Kamion> it's autobitch, not automove
<fabbione> ah ok :-)
* Kamion sleeps
<fabbione> night Kamion 
<bob2> jamesh: building on i386, I'll push it up to pqm when it passes
<jamesh> bob2: cool.  I'd be _very_ surprised if it makes any difference on i386 :)
<bob2> yeah, but I'm paranoid :)
<bob2> merged
<bob2> except it's not
<pitti> Morning
<fabbione> hey pitti
<bob2> hey pitti 
<Treenaks> bob2: morning :)
<bob2> morning? it's 1836!
<bob2> tho I only got up 3 hours ago, so I guess it evens out
<Treenaks> bob2: you're 10 hours off then :)
<fabbione> Treenaks: that's because he lives on the wrong side of the world :P
<Treenaks> fabbione: oh yeah, he's one of those Southern Hemispherians ;)
<fabbione> yeah 
<bob2> southern hemisphere > you
<fabbione> this update is taking forever
<fabbione> bob2: * > southern hemisphere
<fabbione> we don't need a minimum of 12 hours flight to reach a civilized country :)
<bob2> have fun next conference, boyo :)
<jamesh> canberra takes ages to fly to though
<Treenaks> jamesh: for a reason..
<jamesh> actually, there are direct flights Perth -> Canberra
<jamesh> which come out at a little under 4 hours
<bob2> there have been direct flights for decades
<jamesh> if I go through sydney the time goes up to 5:30 hours
<bob2> east cost > west coast
<pitti> Hi seb128 
<seb128> morning
<Treenaks> sebz0r
<pitti> Hi mvo
<mvo> hi pitti 
<Mithrandir> pitti: you pinged?
<pitti> Mithrandir: yesterday IIRC; it was again a request for patch review, already settled now; thanks anyway
<Mithrandir> ok
<seb128> pitti: do you know if http://www.securityfocus.com/bid/11293 is fixed in warty ?
<seb128> pitti: a guy says that his uptodate with security update warty machine has been rooted (and he has only ssh open)
<pitti> seb128: yes, this has been fixed
<pitti> seb128: but this is no remote vulnerability anyway, just an insecure tempfile issue
<seb128> ok
<pitti> seb128: I still have a bunch of things to fix, so maybe he got bitten by a very recent vuln
<seb128> perhaps yep
<pitti> seb128: currently it's like hell, I have about 70 issues still to review
<seb128> :((
<fabbione> pitti: I HATE YOU
<fabbione> pitti: but there are the fixes in the mail itseld
<fabbione> itself
<pitti> fabbione: yes, bitkeeper patch links
<pitti> fabbione: don't hate me
<pitti> fabbione: I'm at reviewing about 70 outstanding issues now
<fabbione> ehhehe
<fabbione> poor elmo
<pitti> fabbione: I have to give away at least some of them
<pitti> fabbione: this console resize thingy is the exploit I tested yesterday (which I told you about)
<pitti> fabbione: darn, whenever I reviewed something, two new mails arrive in my security box
<pitti> TO THE WORLD: stop finding security issues, it's nearly Christmas!!!
* pitti sighs
<fabbione> pitti: yeah.. i could guess that
<pitti> fabbione: I don't have any further information to these kernel issues
<pitti> fabbione: if these are not enough, we just have to wait for a bit
<pitti> fabbione: but it already seems to be pretty good
<fabbione> pitti: well we can start merging these patches to start with
<jamesh> I don't think Hoary GTK was built with Xinerama support
* fabbione backs out the ibooksleep patch for this release
<fabbione> jamesh: no it was not. i told seb128 
<fabbione> i can't make xauth to work
<fabbione> I HATE X
<Treenaks> fabbione: that's OK, it hates you back
<bob2> fabbione: still doesn't build?
<fabbione> bob2: eh? no i am trying to setup Xauth between a bunch of machines but i can't even make xterm working
<bob2> fabbione: er, the ppc sleep patch
<ogra> fabbione: there is a vnc server on your desktop 
* ogra ducks
<fabbione> AHHHH there it is! X -ac
<ogra> heh
* pinhead inflicts wonderfull pain to ogra
<ogra> great :))
<fabbione> bob2: it's too much troubles that patch for the moment
<bob2> fair enoug
<fabbione> bob2: it compiles only for -powerpc kernels and it touches hell of a lot of common code
<fabbione> + benh is aware of a regression
<bob2> ah
<fabbione> so it can wait one release or two
<fabbione> goodie.. time to expand my desktop to 4800x1200
<fabbione> 3 HEADS
<bob2> haha
* pitti gets envious
<fabbione> pitti: wait that i can get the room as i want...
<fabbione> than it will be way bigger than that
<cenerentola> fabbione: i think i found who's gonna help you/us with the sparc thing
<fabbione> brb
<mvo> ping doko
<pitti> sivang: ping
<doko> mvo: pong
<fabbione> cenerentola: and who is he/she?
<fabbione> pitti: some of the patches in that advisory are signed by Herbert
<pitti> fabbione: I saw, yes
<fabbione> pitti: the first 2 urls fix problem num. 3
<fabbione> 3rd url problem num. 1
<fabbione> 4th url problem 2
<pitti> fabbione: so you will merge the first two BK patches to one dpatch?
<fabbione> pitti: hold on...
<fabbione> we already have the first 2
<fabbione>   * [SECURITY]  scm_send local DoS fix (advisory:
<fabbione>     http://www.isec.pl/vulnerabilities/isec-0019-scm.txt) (Andres Salomon).
<fabbione>     Add patch: scm_send-dos-fix.dpatch. (CAN-2004-1016)
<fabbione> it's this one
<fabbione> i am checking if they are really the same
<fabbione> pitti: indeed they are
<pitti> fabbione: oh, cool
<pitti> fabbione: I only checked two exploits so far; the console resize one works, another doesn't
<fabbione> so we need to merge only vt-of-death and ipoptions
<Treenaks> will all these be in .10?
<fabbione> Treenaks: yup... preparing it now :-)
<pitti> fabbione: right, the DoS exploit was the one that didn't work
<Treenaks> fabbione: 2.6.10-final ?
<Treenaks> fabbione: it's out?
<pitti> fabbione: btw, if you are at preparing patches, could you apply them to the Warty kernel as well? Herbert is not available
<fabbione> Treenaks: this are for our kernels
<Treenaks> fabbione: ah ok
<fabbione> Treenaks: of course they are alredy in bk
<fabbione> pitti: humpf... ok
<pitti> fabbione: thanks, dude
<fabbione> pitti: you will have to remind me the procedure to upload to security
<pitti> fabbione: add "0.1" ubuntu's to the version (-16.5 now) and upload to warty-security
<fabbione> pitti: ok...
<pitti> fabbione: I do the rest
<fabbione> i have 16.4 on the mirror.. so i will create .5
<sivang> pitti : pong
<fabbione> pitti: do we have the CAN for the last 2 thingy?
<pitti> fabbione: no, sorry
<fabbione> ok
<trulux> hi
<trulux> pitti, hey!
<pitti> hi trulux 
<pitti> trulux: sorry, I did not yet get to the ssp thingy
<trulux> pitti, i'm going to spend some time on the rts and then some kernel stuff
<pitti> trulux: I already spent all the day doing security udpates
<trulux> pitti, i see, with ssp we wpouldn't need to spend too much time on them ;D
<pitti> trulux: right, and neither with PaX. But I do have to do Warty updates
<trulux> pitti, i see
<trulux> warty is not going to be changed except for security updates
<pitti> trulux: and right now there are a hell of a lot issues
<trulux> when Hoary will get released?
<pitti> trulux: April 2004
<pitti> trulux: 2005, of course
<fabbione> pitti: building kernels for warty and hoary
<fabbione> pitti: we do agree that .5 will come out "only" with these 2 fixes?
<trulux> pitti, nice
<fabbione> intresting.. pitti there is a race condition in ccache :-)
<fabbione> pitti: wanna fix it?
<fabbione> it makes gcc hangs forever
<candyman> hi
<candyman> sladen: I am the poor sould whose tosh 3500 you helped install
<pitti> fabbione: could you add the recent arch-x86_64-sys32_quotactl-overflow.dpatch to 16.5, too?
<pitti> fabbione: ccache: sure; however, I did not read anything about it
<fabbione> pitti: anything else left?
<pitti> fabbione: not from my side
<fabbione> ok
<trukulo> hi ppl
<fabbione> hey trukulo 
<trukulo> fabbione: i have 3 debs, is there anything as experimental in ubuntu? or contributed packages?
<trukulo> i've made leafpad, gnomebaker and graveman
<fabbione> trukulo: no.. not really.. you need to put them up somewhere on your own atm
<trukulo> i have
<trukulo> i only ask if there's something centralized for ubuntu
<trukulo> you know what i mean
<trukulo> http://mercurio.homeip.net/debian/
<trukulo> it's here
<pitti> fabbione, trukulo: after advertising them to ubuntu-devel, we might put them into our universe
<trukulo> to mailing list?
<trukulo> graveman and gnomebaker are very unstable now
<trukulo> leafpad works like a charm
<pitti> trukulo: yes, ML
<trukulo> ok pitti , i'll send a mail
<trukulo> but now, it's time for a cigarette
<pitti> Kamion: ping
<pitti> Keybuk: ping
<pitti> jdub: ping
<Keybuk> pitti: ello
<Kamion> elmo: still around?
<Kamion> elmo: if you are, moving python-pyrex to main and then python2.4-dbus, python2.4-dictclient, python2.4-librdf, python2.4-pycurl, python2.4-samba, libxml2-python2.4, libxslt1-python2.4, python2.4-subversion to replace earlier 2.3 versions would be cool
<robtaylor> hey. a collegue of mine tried installing warty on an old box (some i686 with a Voodoo Banshee) last night, and apparently X failed to start after the reboot.
<robtaylor> does anyone know what information would be useful for a bugreport?
<robtaylor> (i assume Xfree86.log, syslog, and the results of lspci ? )
<trulux> pitti, see the reply on the gcc thread
<Treenaks> robtaylor: those would be nice - kernel log?
<robtaylor> Treenaks: ok, cool
<Treenaks> robtaylor: oh and the X config file that got generated
<elmo> Kamion: did someone do seeds already?
<elmo> never mind
<Kamion> oh, you did it, cool
<robtaylor> Treenaks: is that /etc/X11/XF86Config-4 ? (not sitting at a warty box right now..)
<Kamion> I asked jdub last night about modifying them but he wasn't around
<elmo> I committed it 'cos I think it comes under the "obvious" rule
<elmo> how often does your master seed list get updated?>
<Treenaks> robtaylor: yes
<Kamion> 5,20,35,50, but I just did it
<robtaylor> Treenaks: thanks :)
<elmo> hmm, that got the promotions, but not the demotions
<Kamion> ubuntu-desktop still depends on the old stuff
<Kamion> I'll fix it up once everything's built
<Kamion> (dbus is still to build, that's what the pyrex stuff was about ...)
<elmo> ah
<Kamion> ubuntu-meta is a liability sometimes in seed terms :(
<elmo> okay, done on jackass, prop in 10 mins
<Kamion> ta
<pitti> elmo: did anything happen to the website in the past hour? I cannot login any more
<pitti> fabbione: please hold on uploading 16.5
<elmo> pitti: not that I'm aware of
<fabbione> TOO LATE
<pitti> fabbione: okay
<fabbione> Uploading via ftp linux-source-2.6.8.1_2.6.8.1-16.5_source.changes: done.
<fabbione> Successfully uploaded packages.
<fabbione> i did it like 2 minutes ago
<elmo> pitti: authserver seems fine
<pitti> elmo: hmm, I try again in some minutes. Thanks
<elmo> pitti: meh, it doesn't work for me either
<Kamion> elmo: (hm, will python2.4-dbus auto-propagate when it finally builds?)
<elmo> not auto no
<Treenaks> -16.5 ??
<elmo> does firefox really not have a way to ask about cookies?
<lamont> moof
<fabbione> hey lamont 
<lamont> Can't find source for charmap.app_0.2-4
* lamont grumbles
<zul> hey
<azeem> lamont: aj said something about running rene and leaving out charmap.app earlier, fwiw
<lamont> azeem: yeah, was/is an issue in debian for some time, is now an ubuntu issue too.
<elmo> uh?
<Kamion> ubuntu-meta uploaded with python2.4 changes
<Capri> the samba/smbfs stuff in warty is broken since last update. I can not write to shares.  touch: setting times of `test.txt': Input/output error ... another client (Sid with smbfs 3.0.9-1) works.
<Kamion> hmm, not convinced we'll be able to excise all of python2.3 from desktop before elmo leaves
<elmo> Kamion: no biggie if not?
<elmo> pitti: website's back
<pitti> elmo: cool, thanks
<Kamion> elmo: just annoying me for CD size, that's all :-)
<Kamion> (you're right)
<lamont> elmo: charmap.app fail-to-fetch message from our archive this morning...  then again, only 1 of them.
<azeem> lamont: thanks for getting multisync into universe, btw
<Kamion> lamont: did hal's dep-wait auto-clear?
<elmo> kamion: I saw it get accepted
<Kamion> oh I'm very stupid and looking at the wrong build logs
<elmo> does anyone know where suse's srpms are?
<Treenaks> on ftp.suse.com ?
<pitti> elmo: ftp://ftp.suse.com/pub/suse/i386/current/suse/src/
<elmo> boggle
<pitti> elmo: don't ask why they hide the sources below the i386 dir
<elmo> pitti: what about for updates?
<elmo>         A memory leak in the ip_conntrack_ftp firewalling module was fixed
<elmo>         in the 2.6 kernels.
<elmo> they mention that in their kernel advisory and i'm trying to track down the patch
<mjg59> /pub/suse/i386/update/9.2/rpm/src
<mjg59> Though there doesn't seem to be a kernel package there
<elmo> ftp.suse.com:/pub/suse/i386/update/9.2/rpm/src
<elmo> go SUSE
<Kamion> it's your birthday
<pitti> elmo: ftp://ftp.suse.com/pub/suse/i386/update/9.2/patches/  could also be interesting
<elmo> pitti: that seems to be out of date too
<mjg59> elmo: There's a kernel patch from yesterday
<mjg59> /pub/suse/i386/update/9.2/patches/kernel-51816
<elmo> oh  maybe I misread the description then
<fabbione> elmo: it's probably easier to check netfilter.sf.net
<pitti> fabbione: does that ip_conntrack_ftp thing say anything to you?
<mjg59> But the description doesn't seem to mention the ip_conntrack_ftp
<elmo> what kind of patch is that??
<fabbione> pitti: i know what it is.. but no.. i have no idea
<pitti> elmo: I _think_ that I read something about this
<pitti> elmo: wait, let me dig it up
<fabbione> i have no idea there was a memory leak
<elmo> oh dear lord, they patch in dazuko
<fabbione> in what?
<fabbione> what is dazuko?
<elmo> virus-scanner for filesystem in-kernel type thing
<fabbione> MEH!
<Kamion> that's terrifying
<mjg59> elmo: Yeah, that doesn't seem to be the actual diff. No idea where it's hidden.
<Treenaks> Kamion: see why I ph33r suse?
<Kamion> Treenaks: don't believe I ever argued :)
<lamont> elmo: is that where the leak was?
<fabbione> the first one in this chanthat will ever ask for something like that will be sodomozied publically in the center of the Vatica
<Treenaks> Kamion: no.. I don't think se
<fabbione> Vatican
<Kamion> fabbione: your kink is just wrong
<pitti> elmo, fabbione: https://lists.netfilter.org/pipermail/netfilter-devel/2004-December/017677.html
<fabbione> NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
<elmo> pitti: hmm, I wish I could confirm that's what it was
<elmo> thanks for the link tho
<pitti> fabbione: sorry, I did not hear anything about this on the lists
<fabbione> it's like 3 weeks that i only do security for the kernel
<fabbione> nothing more than that
<pitti> fabbione: just wait for 2.6.10
<Treenaks> fabbione: addicted yet?
<fabbione> Treenaks: NO!
<pitti> fabbione: a memory leak is not exactly the worst thing
<fabbione> pitti: i know.. it's one line patch....
<pitti> fabbione: I fixed so many buffer overflows today, I wish we eventually had ssp/pax/a gun to kill all C programmers/a miracle
<bob2> haha, fxp
<fabbione> ehehhe
<fabbione> seb128: you around?
<trukulo> hi again
<trukulo> pitti, u there?
<pitti> trukulo: yes
<trulux> pitti, when do you think we could work on the pkgs?
<pitti> trulux: sorry, I still do security updates. It is like hell today
<trukulo> pitti, it's about the packages i want to contribute
<trulux> any help needed?
<trukulo> leafpad, graveman and gnomebaker
<trulux> pitti, what's needed to join the security team?
<pitti> trulux: some experience with it, and a lot of saliva
<pitti> trulux: I gave up fixing universe, too
<pitti> trulux: fixing main keeps me busy enough
<pitti> trulux: so if you are interested in fixing holes (also in main for my sake), feel invited :-)
<mojo> seb128: I find it abnormal that gnome-doc-utils and yelp still base on the libxml2-python2.3 and python2.3 not python2.4? Are there any chance if miss those 2 packages?
<Kamion> indeed, gnome-doc-utils is one of the last stragglers it seems
<elmo> there's some others
<Kamion> (in desktop)
<elmo> ah
<mojo> Kamion: can u be more specific?
<Kamion> no.
<mojo> Kamion: lol, ok then, just let seb128 relax and play around with it, he will solve it soon
<fabbione> hey seb128 
<Kamion> http://people.ubuntu.com/~cjwatson/germinate-hoary-output/rdepends/python2.3/python2.3 can be more specific, though
<fabbione> seb128: http://people.ubuntulinux.org/~fabbione/NoXKeepsCrashing.diff
<fabbione> seb128: this is the final and tested diff for gdm.. i already uploaded because i couldn't remember if you were away or not
<mojo> Kamion: I got it, thx
<Kamion> actually it looks like gnome-doc-utils is the last one in desktop, python-epydoc's dependency is an alternative python2.4 | python2.3 | ...
<trukulo> fabio: do you have 5 minutes for me, bello :)
<mojo> Kamion: yelp 2
<fabbione> trukulo: i am not sure.. i am waiting for a person to come here.. so i might have to disappear from one sec to another
<fabbione> trukulo: is it urgent?
<Kamion> mojo: no, yelp does not depend on python at all. the only reason you see it there is that it depends on gnome-doc-utils.
<trukulo> fabbione, is just i want to know what to say in ml to include my packages in universe
<trukulo> i'm not in a hurry
<fabbione> trukulo: just ask to everybody in here :-)
<Kamion> meep? why does libapache2-mod-python2.4 depend on python2.3?
<mojo> Kamion: heh? weird! it depends on libxml2-python2.3
<fabbione> there are plenty of people that can help you
<trukulo> everybody in here, can you help me? :)
<Kamion> mojo: not directly.
<fabbione> Kamion: i still blame GTK for that
<azeem> trukulo: are your packages in Debian already?
<trukulo> no azeem 
<azeem> why not? =)
<mojo> Kamion: Synaptic demand libxml2-python2.3 for yelp, not really sure about this though
<azeem> trukulo: if you get them into Debian, they'll get into universe automatically, module build bugs due to the different bases
<trukulo> azeem, because i'm not a DD and i'm talking with one to include it, too
<trukulo> it's a fact of time :)
<Kamion> mojo: like I say, it does not depend on it directly. I'm looking at it with better tools than synaptic for this sort of investigation.
<lupus_> ubuntu-desktop is depending on a lot of python-2.3 things while there is already a 2.4 available
<Kamion> lupus_: already fixed
<mojo> Kamion: k then, my aplogy
<bob2> mojo: it's safe to leave this sort of thing in Kamion's hands, he has a bit of experience with it ;-)
<mojo> Kamion: I've never said I don't trust him, he's very good
<Kamion> d'oh!
<Kamion> Build-Depends: [...]  python2.3-dev, python2.3-dev, [...] 
<trukulo> so for going into universe, i need them in sid?
<mojo> Kamion: ..
<trulux> pitti, i think i can get into it, but also i would like to propose the creation of a developers team involved in security technologies deployement
<mojo> oh btw, can someone clearify for me this confusion: ok, gnome-applet also contain cpufreq, netstatus and other stuff, how come there are still cpufreq applet and netstatus-applet outside?? weird??/
<pitti> trulux: right now that's me as the Ubuntu initiator, perhaps doko as our gcc maintainer, perhaps fabbione as our kernel guy
<azeem> mojo: they got merged into gnome-applets and have not yet been removed
<mojo> I mean netstatus and cpufreq applet packages
<lupus_> Kamion, then why does ubuntu-desktop depend on python2.3-dbus while 2.4 is installed?
<azeem> as their proper packges
<mojo> i c
<mojo> i c
<Kamion> lupus_: I fixed that a couple of hours ago, python2.4-dbus only *just* became available
<azeem> mojo: that's a question for #ubuntu rather, I'd say
<Kamion> packages may not quite have hit your mirror yet
<mojo> lupus: I just got p4-dbus, now hal-device-manager no longer dep on p3, which is NICE
* Kamion hopes hal-device-manager still actually works
<mojo> no need to hope Kamion, it works well!
<lupus_> Kamion, hmm your fix is not in the repository yet?
<Kamion> lupus_: it's on its way dude, relax
<Kamion> in fact, it so is in the repository
<Kamion> http://archive.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/pool/main/u/ubuntu-meta/ubuntu-desktop_0.11_i386.deb
<mojo> ok, cya guys, I gotta go to, nice to see python2.4 migration process, it'd be NICER if all programs re-compile with gcc3.4
<Kamion> that's a C++ ABI change, non-trivial
<trulux> pitti, and what's the head?
<trulux> who's the head?
<pitti> trulux: that's currently me, I suppose
<trulux> heh, ok
<trulux> pitti, what do you think about my acceptance as a member? i want to enter the Ubuntu project ASAP
<trulux> because i could make more noise, better, we could make more noise from the inside
<lamont> doko?
<lamont> hrm. nope
<pitti> trulux: http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/NewDevelopersAndMaintainers
<pitti> trulux: you can start right away
<mojo> I'm back
<trulux> pitti, btw, the warpper now can work using an env var to get the real patch of the *real* gcc binary
<mojo> fabio: glxgears just run again here, so weird! did u change anything?
<trulux> to avoid compile-time confusion
<trulux> pitti, i had a fast read in it
<trulux> i agree
<Kamion> seb128: is it just me, or should /usr/bin/xml2po use an explicit python version rather than just /usr/bin/python? At the moment you can install it and have it not work, because it depends on python (i.e. 2.4) and libxml2-python2.3.
<Kamion> and there's no default-python-version package for libxml2
<mojo> Kamion: could u pls chek me this bug? I compile x-unikey (unikey.sf.net) and run 'unikey', the program runs fine but it crashed gnome-panel for unknown reason, my friend just report me this werid bug, I need ur help here
<azeem> mojo: why do you need Kamion's help, specifically?
<Kamion> you want anybody's help but mine. I have no idea what that bug might be.
<mojo> azeem: ah.. 'cause ppl said he's very good
<azeem> elmo is very good, too
* azeem hides
<mojo> lol
<Kamion> mojo: people have areas of expertise; these areas are not infinite
<azeem> mojo: seriously, this is (i) a topic for #ubuntu or the bug tracker and (ii) you should talk to the whole chan
<mojo> ok, I try, thx anyway
<seb128> Kamion: no idea
<azeem> mojo: and if unikey is not supported by ubuntu, you're on your own anyway (but you could ask for help in #ubuntu or on ubuntu-users)
<seb128> Kamion: it starts with #!/usr/bin/python
<Kamion> yeah, I saw
<Kamion> seb128: would you object to forcing /usr/bin/python2.4 there? it's just an environment variable to pass to configure
<seb128> Kamion: no. But why is that needed ?
<Kamion> you must either have (a) #!/usr/bin/python and depend on module packages built for the default python version, or (b) #!/usr/bin/pythonX.Y and depend on module packages built for pythonX.Y
<Kamion> you can't mix and match
<mvo__> seb128: why was the "user_install_dialog" removed from gimp? I'm prepearing gimp2.2 right now and I wonder if I should remove it there as well?
<Kamion> try installing gnome-doc-utils on hoary at the moment and running xml2po
<seb128> mvo: oh, cool, gimp 2.2 was on my list but with GNOME 2.9.3 ETOOMUCHTOPACKAGE
<Kamion> it'll throw an error about not being able to find the libxml2 module
<seb128> sudo apt-get install libxml2-python2.4
<seb128> (missing depends)
<Kamion> that's not the point
<mvo> seb128: my svn repository for synaptic is down, so I have a bit of time to work on other stuff. and I like the gimp :) should I remove the install_dialog in it?
<seb128> mvo: BTW yes please remove the dialog. That's because we don't want to get the questions on the first run
<seb128> just validate the default choices
<Kamion> at the moment gnome-doc-utils depends on python and libxml2-python2.3, which is a bug
<seb128> Kamion: works fine here
<seb128> $ /usr/bin/xml2po /usr/share/gnome/help/gnome-doc-xslt/C/db2html.xml
<seb128> works
<seb128> BTW yep, the depends need to be changed
<Kamion> it doesn't work after installing a base system and typing 'apt-get install gnome-doc-utils'
<mojo> seb128: after solving libxml2-python2.4, can u look at python2.4-mysqldb, I don't know y it still depends on libmysqlclient10, is it supposed to be libmysqlclient14???
<seb128> Kamion: 
<seb128>  (a) #!/usr/bin/python and depend on module packages built for the default python version
<Kamion> it is always a bug to mix /usr/bin/python with dependencies on pythonX.Y modules
<seb128> should do that
<Kamion> ok, which means that such a package needs to be created for libxml2
<seb128> hum
<seb128> don't bother so
<seb128> pick (b)
<seb128> that works too
<seb128> (sorry to be slow to get the point, was doing some other stuff in //)
<Kamion> np, building now
<srbaker> wow
<srbaker> i think emacs may be showing its age
<srbaker> there are some features that i want that emacs just can't do efficiently
<srbaker> mmm-mode is cool, but it requires syntactic sugar to be added to my php code blocks
<srbaker> same with code folding.
<srbaker> i want all of those features with syntactic sugar in my documents
<mojo> srbaker: man, all ppl here alrady choose their favorite code editor
<srbaker> mojo, ?
<srbaker> mojo, i've been an emacs head for about 6 years.  it's starting to piss me off :(
<mojo> srbaker: that's normal, nothing last forever, youth replace old, and so on
<srbaker> hehe
<Mithrandir> srbaker: somebody should sit down and reimplement emacs in CL
<srbaker> mojo, what do you use?
<srbaker> Mithrandir, that might not be a bad idea.
<Mithrandir> srbaker: and make the docs GPL while they are at it. :)
<mojo> srbaker: freaking man, I use Vim, but dun talk about this thing here man, I'm scared to be kicked
<Mithrandir> mojo: oh, why would you be kicked for using vim?  more than half of canonical uses it.
<srbaker> mojo, a lot of ubuntu folks use vim
<srbaker> Mithrandir, i've been going over to the dark side with vim-gnome a lot lately
<mojo> no no, such talk is supposed to be in #ubuntu not here, developers here are really strict, rules are rules man, dun talk it here
<srbaker> Mithrandir, emacs' failure to properly be able to handle python triple-quoting, php code, and code folding has been pssing me off lately
<srbaker> i can't figure out how to get vim to do line-numbering and current-line-highlighting
<Mithrandir> srbaker: that's fixable within emacs, what bothers me is that elisp is slow
<mojo> srbaker: go for Eclipse
<srbaker> Mithrandir, no, those things aren't fixable in emacs.
<Mithrandir> srbaker: set nu
<srbaker> without large changes to emacs
<Mithrandir> for line numbering.
<Mithrandir> srbaker: sure, you need to replace font-lock-mode, but that's not really hard.
<Kamion> seb128: looks like it needs to explicitly call dh_python as well (since it doesn't use the python-distutils cdbs class, and probably can't without disrupting the build system a good deal); ok for me to fix that too?
<srbaker> Mithrandir, some folkms in #emacs told me it was a more fundamental problem than font-lock-mode
<srbaker> it had something to do with emacs only looking at characters individually instead of groups of characters
<srbaker> so it sees <?php and ?>  it only sees the < and > for html
<srbaker> instead of seeing <?php and ?> as complete groups
<jdub> Kamion: python2.3 -> python2.4 -> sure!
<srbaker> Mithrandir, ahh, set nu does what i want in vim
* jdub wakes wearily at 3am.
<srbaker> anyone know how to get highlight-current-line ?
<Kamion> jdub: elmo did it
<srbaker> jdub, i went to bed at 3am last night.  just rolling out of bed now :)
<Mithrandir> srbaker: http://www.vim.org/scripts/script.php?script_id=555
<jdub> Kamion: cool
<mojo> jdub: 3am? same here! we may live in same city
<srbaker> i like vim-gnome's integration with gnome
<srbaker> Mithrandir, when i download a script, how do i load it?
<Mithrandir> srbaker: no idea, I'm an emacs head. :P
<mojo> srbaker: what kind of script?
<srbaker> .vim
<Mithrandir> srbaker: http://www.vim.org/tips/tip.php?tip_id=411 , it seems
* sivang is also hooked on emacs, even more after mataro :)
<srbaker> sivang, mataro?
<zul> bleah emacs
<seb128> Kamion: yep, go go go, fix it :)
<Mithrandir> srbaker: I guess you can do it just fine in emacs, but it'll be slow as hell, since the elisp engine is slow.
<srbaker> Mithrandir, ahh.
<sivang> srbaker: I was introduced to the fact that bash uses readline, and it follows emacs's binding (although you can set it up to use vim ones) so now I use all of them which makes me 50% more efficient in terms of keystrokes.
<mojo> seb128: how's the p4-mysqldb? have u fix it to use libmysqlclient14?
<srbaker> Mithrandir, i'm not sure i like lisp anyhow
<srbaker> i've been using smalltalk a lot lately.  i think an emacs using smalltalk instead of lisp might not be a bad thing :)
<Mithrandir> srbaker: I like it, but I don't try to force it upon others.  It's fairly weird compared to imperative programming.
<Mithrandir> I've never britten smalltalk, so I can't comment on that.
<Mithrandir> uhm, written
<jdub> Kamion: should we be ditching versioned python package names in the seed?
<Kamion> jdub: only if non-versioned ones are available; I think we picked non-versioned ones where we could
<jdub> hrm
* jdub has not enjoyed the slow motion screeching car crash 2.3 -> 2.4 migration
<elmo> err, have you seen how it worked in Debian?
<elmo> this hasn't been positively pleasant AFAIC
<Kamion> there are only eight versioned python packages in the seeds
<Kamion> elmo: s/hasn't/has/?
<elmo> err, has, right
<jdub> elmo: i can imagine a debian migration would be even more nail-bitingly slow motion ;)
<azeem> jdub: that's why we have those longer release cycles
<Kamion> indeed, it's a screaming nightmare when you can't just do doko's perl script on the archive ;)
<jdub> ;)
<Mithrandir> it's a result of pytohn being a fair bit broken, imho.
<Kamion> yeah, I tried to have that argument with Anthony Baxter ... :)
<Mithrandir> I'm off again
<trulux> anybody here maintaining php packages??
<jdub> "Dude, this is broken, look at my stretch marks!"
<jdub> "Suffer in your jocks."
<seb128> mojo: I'm supposed to fix that ? why me ?
<fabbione> mojo: what is the problem again?
<fabbione> seb128: did you see the patch?
<seb128> fabbione: patch for what ?
<fabbione> seb128: gdm
<fabbione> seb128: i did put the patch on people/~fabbione/
* lamont goes to town for a bit
<fabbione> and i uploaded
<fabbione> seb128: there are no regressions and it adds the features i needed
<seb128> fabbione: oh this one, yep during the Mataro session
<seb128> go ahead
<fabbione> seb128: read above.. i already did
<fabbione> seb128: i updated the patch so that you can have it
<fabbione> seb128: and gdm is already up
<seb128> ok, cool
<karim> hi
<mxpxpod> who is in charge of putting together the source packages for the kernel?
<mxpxpod> I would like to hug them for putting benh's sleep patch for ibook g4's in :)
<candyman> sladen: you at the keyboard?
<mxpxpod> fabbione: ping
* lamont_r sighs at the merges.
<seb128> lamont_r: you can get a package out of NEW ?
<Treenaks> gimp2.2?
<lamont_r> seb128: only by invoking the muppet behind the curtain
<lamont_r> seb128: that is, it requires elmo
<Treenaks> lamont_r: or a kernel bug kernel ;)
<Treenaks> uh
<Treenaks> drop one kernel
<sid77> hi
<ajmitch_> morning
<bob2> mjg59: after commenting out the vberestore bit, I can't seem to make it crash on wake up
<bob2> but suspend-to-disk dies
<mjg59> Oh. In what way?
<bob2> the power button diesn't seem to do anything, so I ran /etc/acpi/hibernate.sh, and it seemed to crash before the swsusp code got going (no freezing tasks output, etc)
<mjg59> Crashed crashed?
<mjg59> Hrm.
<bob2> nothing but 5 seconds of the power button fixed it
<mjg59> Try commenting out the vbestate stuff in /etc/acpi/prepare.sh as well
<bob2> ok
<lamont_r> mjg59: so if I wanted to have working suspend/etc on my vaio, what all do I need relative to a current hoary machine?
<mjg59> lamont_r: Add deb http://www.srcf.ucam.org/~mjg59/laptops/ ./ to sources.list and grab acpi-support
<bob2> hah, uncommenting the vbe stufff and sleeping brings corruption on the first try
<mjg59> (this is not a guarantee of success)
<mjg59> bob2: What sort of corruption?
<bob2> mjg59: the xscreesaver unlock thing only shows the X logo, but you can type the password blind.  xterms are bare black, except for the underlines on highlighted text
<bob2> if you scroll moz, the whole geck bit stays still, except for the top and bottom 5% of the window, which scroll
<mjg59> Are you sure you mean uncommenting?
<mjg59> If so then yes, I see that too
<mjg59> I need to try to track down what's going on there
<bob2> ah, awesome
<lamont_r> mjg59: and with acpi support installed, it should just suspend on power-button?
<lamont_r>  trying to overwrite `/etc/acpi/events/powerbtn', which is also in package acpid
<lamont_r> grumble.
<mjg59> Power button should suspend to disk. Sleep button should suspend to RAM.
<lamont_r> ok.  /me tests.  back on in a bit
<sivang> mjg59: do you have anything to do that on a dell inspiron 8200 ?
<sivang> mjg59: :)
<mjg59> sivang: The same
<bob2> mjg59: is the load-of-eleventy-billion thing normal after wakeup?
<mjg59> bob2: Yes. They're unloaded before sleep because that tends to make things work better.
<bob2> er, load average, not module loading :)
<mjg59> Oh, right. In that case, probably not. What's generating it?
<bob2> hm, the video corruption thing is highly unreproducible
<sivang> mjg59: is there a package name?
<sivang> mjg59: or some kind of auto install for that?
<bob2> acpi-support is the package you want
<mjg59> sivang: <mjg59> lamont_r: Add deb http://www.srcf.ucam.org/~mjg59/laptops/ ./ to sources.list and grab acpi-support
<mjg59> bob2: Yeah, it's some sort of timing thing. I blame vbestate.
<bob2> load of 15, not from normal processes afaict (top is winning at 2%)
<sivang> mjg59: and that's it? you're sure ? :)
<cenerentola> what if gnomebaker doesnt see the burner?
<cenerentola> actually... wrong chan... sorry 
<mjg59> sivang: Running Hoary
<mjg59> bob2: ps aux - anything in D state?
<sivang> mjg59: ok, I am going to test that now, do I need to add some special partition for that?
<mjg59> If you want suspend to disk, you need to add resume=/dev/hdwhatever pointing at your swap partition
<bob2> mjg59: it drops down quickly after resume, but nothing now is in D
<bob2> let me sleep again and see
<mjg59> Oh, if it drops again after resume, it'll just be because of all the modprobing
<bob2> ah
<mjg59> That'll cause an instantaneous hit in load
<sivang> mjg59: ok but for suspand to ram, I don't need anything special settings?
<mjg59> No
<bob2> mjg59: oh, I have acpi_sleep=s3_bios, btw
<mjg59> bob2: You shouldn't need that any more
<mjg59> video_post deals with that
<bob2> and nothing extra in xorg.conf, either?
<mjg59> Nope
<bob2> woo
<sivang> mjg59: can I apt-get install source of that package see how the magic is done?
<bob2> it's mostly shell scripts in /etc/acpi
* sivang if there is anything like that for desktops.
<bob2> it will work on modern desktops
<mjg59> sivang: Yes
<mjg59> Add a deb-src line
<sivang> mjg59: ok, let's test that on my desktop :) first suspend to ram :)
* sivang adding source line
<bob2> by "mostly", I mean "completely", it seems
<sivang> mjg59: woops. I alreayd got it installed
<mjg59> sivang: ?
<mjg59> Check that the version you have installed is the same as the one in the repository
#ubuntu-devel 2009-12-28
<lamont> hrm... so what's the new soundjuicer, now that it's in universe?
<wgrant> lamont: Rhythmbox has done that for years, hasn't it?
<lamont> used to be it did it by launching sound-juicer, I thought
<lamont> just ran into it when my daughter asked me to put soundjuicer on her laptop, and it fetched from universe
<wgrant> It doesn't appear to use Sound Juicer any more.
<lamont> it could also be that I'm misremembering ... ta
<real_ate> hi guys... i'm wondering if anyone has 5 mins to help me out with a bit of mentoring. I just have 2 things i need explained to me before i can make the app that i want to make but i'm a KDE/Qt programmer and i don't know how the GTK/Ubuntu technologies fit together
<Riddell> real_ate: use KDE/Qt then?
<real_ate> Riddell: well the app i want to build is for an installation of pure Ubuntu machines
<real_ate> not really a production environment but its close ;)
<real_ate> and KDE is not an option, so i wanted to learn a bit of the local lingo ;)
<real_ate> ... i'll just throw out my first question here and if anyone things i shouldn't be asking like this please just let me know
<real_ate> one of the main requirements of the app is that there is a status icon at all times. and based on the work for lucid that is described here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopExperienceTeam/ApplicationIndicators There is a good bit of info for me to work with
<real_ate> but some code has to run to setup the application indicator but i don't know where that code should be run from
<real_ate> should i be looking to create a startup python script or something? or is there a better way to do this?
<real_ate> hello again
<real_ate> can anyone explain the message ** (test.py:22994): WARNING **: Unable to create Ayatana Watcher proxy!  Could not get owner of name 'org.ayatana.indicator.application': no such name
<real_ate>  to me?
<jussi01> Hrm, seems to be that the last kernel update broke the anysee driver...
<flyback> running hmm
<flyback> 8.10 here
<flyback> and I don't know if it's changed in 9 or whatever it is
<flyback> but seriously consider compiling xchat2 to *NOT* accept dcc by default
<flyback> some cornhole last night dcc send spammed me with rather disgusting pornographic titles and I ended up having to just kill X to get rid of all the directory prompts
<crimsun> flyback: patches welcome.
<flyback> don't think you need a patch it's just a compile time option
<crimsun> flyback: i.e., debdiff attached to a bug report
<flyback> I run the livecd for now so kinda hard to setup a compile fix etc :P
<crimsun> nothing in ./configure --help output.
<crimsun> are you referring to something else?
<flyback> no the default config is set to auto get dcc
<crimsun> be aware of debian/patches/11_fix_dcc_close_message.dpatch
<crimsun> hmm, not applied to current builds.
<flyback> it's not a bug
<flyback> they just setup their default config in a insecure manner
<crimsun> flyback: so, provide a patch
<crimsun> either I spend a night reading xchat's source instead of fixing alsa bugs, or someone else (you?) more familiar with xchat's source dives in directly
<flyback> it was just a suggestion
<flyback> sheesh
<crimsun> I think you fail to understand me. Suggestions can be converted into patches. #ubuntu-motu can assist.
<flyback> unfortunitely I don't have time or the mental health left to work on that right now
<flyback> thx for the help thought
#ubuntu-devel 2009-12-29
 * flyback goes to get some caffiene, oh crap the roads are too bad, looks like he will have to rebuild his palm t5 before the party tomarrow, DECAFINATED
 * flyback hey, if I wrap myself around a pole on the way to get a redbull, it's been fun guys :)
<zoke> I'm not sure on who to complain to but bug 429369 and bug 467841 are really serious
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 429369 in xserver-xorg-video-intel "[i945GM] No screen(s) found after updgrade to karmic alpha 5" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/429369
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 467841 in xserver-xorg-video-intel "after first splash boot, screen flickers displaying a bunch of drm: failed to restore crtc configuration" [Undecided,Incomplete] https://launchpad.net/bugs/467841
<zoke> they prevent using karmic on a lot of laptops
<zoke> the fix is appending i915.modeset=0 to boot options
<zoke> or moving to the .32 kernel which has it fixed
<zoke> I have tested that the bug is not present in lucid which is good
<zoke> but could the fix be back ported to karmic ?
<zoke> a patch is available in bug 467841
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 467841 in xserver-xorg-video-intel "after first splash boot, screen flickers displaying a bunch of drm: failed to restore crtc configuration" [Undecided,Incomplete] https://launchpad.net/bugs/467841
 * flyback http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=23w2Jz0xrHE
<ibib> hi, is there any documentation on using APT's DiffIndex feature from a repo point of view ?
<superm1> chrisccoulson, where are we at wrg to bug 497441?  would like to make sure we have something figured out in time for a2. maybe the new patch in bug 484559 and dropping the g-c-c depends to suggests
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 497441 in mythbuntu "gnome-system-tools 2.29.1-0ubuntu1 is causing all of gnome in Mythbuntu builds" [Critical,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/497441
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 484559 in gnome-system-tools "Xubuntu: Cannot change own password because users-admin needs gnome-about-me" [Low,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/484559
<damo22> how do i build an ubuntu source package with a .dsc file and orig.tar.gz and diff.gz
<damo22> pbuilder?
<paulliu> damo22: Are you in Ubuntu? You can just dpkg-source -x *.dsc and cd <package>-<version> and debuild.
<damo22> thanks
<DktrKranz> Are autosyncs for NEW packages from testing still processed, or a manual sync has to be filed?
<sebner> DktrKranz: Import freeze is on february 11th
<sebner> DktrKranz: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LucidReleaseSchedule ;P
<DktrKranz> sebner: I knew, but I don't see some packages yet, so I was curious :)
<sebner> DktrKranz: psst, archive admins are lazy .. psssst
<sits> A quick question - what is going to happen to nvidia-graphics-drivers-71 as it seems that NVIDIA will not be updating it to support newer versions of xorg?
<blackxored>  /join #ubuntu-offtopic
<blackxored> sorry
<Tm_T> aww
<chrisccoulson> hi superm1 - i've not started to look at bug 497441 yet. we can't use the patch in bug 484559, as users-admin was re-written completely for 2.29.x version of g-s-t, so the patch needs to be adapted for the new version
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 497441 in mythbuntu "gnome-system-tools 2.29.1-0ubuntu1 is causing all of gnome in Mythbuntu builds" [Critical,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/497441
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 484559 in gnome-system-tools "Xubuntu: Cannot change own password because users-admin needs gnome-about-me" [Low,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/484559
<chrisccoulson> but i can do this for a2
<chrisccoulson> that shouldn't be a problem for me
<kblin> hi folks
<kblin> assuming I wanted to build a version of current ubuntu on an unsupported architecture, how would I do that?
<asac> kblin: what arch?
<kblin> asac: armv5.. :)
<kblin> I know I could just go and use debian for this, it's more a question of how many hoops you need to jump through for a karmic armv5 rebuild as opposed to switching distros
<Tm_T> kblin: might be just matter of rebuild if lucky
<sbalneav> Hmmm, I'm having a problem with Sabayon and gksu interaction.  I've done a huge amount of work on sabayon for Lucid.  It started fine under gksu for Karmic, and it starts fine under sudo for karmic and lucid, but fails when started under gksu on lucid. anyone else having any problems with, or is an expert on, gksu?  I've got other stuff I need to work on for edubuntu, and would rather not have to fix gksu if someone else is alr
<kblin> Tm_T: that's what I was hoping. I've just never built ubuntu from scratch. what's the best way of doing that?
<highvoltage> kblin: there are plenty of wiki pages explaining how to do that, both from scratch and from an existing disc
<blackxored> sorry about the spam, I want to cross-sign gpg keys with some ubuntu developer, there's anyone here traveling to cuba by the holidays?
<kblin> highvoltage: thanks, looking
<blackxored> anyone???
<blackxored> sorry about the spam, I want to cross-sign gpg keys with some ubuntu developer, there's anyone here traveling to cuba by the holidays?
<kblin> highvoltage: there seem to be plenty of wiki pages explaining how to build my own packages, or my own kernel. can't seem to find one for the whole distro :)
<ion> blackxored: http://biglumber.com/ btw
<blackxored> what's supposed to be that?
<highvoltage> kblin: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/LiveCDCustomization might be useful to you
<kblin> highvoltage: actually I don't think a livecd-based approach will help. I'll have to rebuild all the compiled packages to my arch anyway.. I think a debootstrap-based builder will be the first step, which then builds for the arch.. I'll go read debootstrap docs
<kblin> later, as my family just told me :)
<sbalneav> ah, as someone else just pointed out:
<sbalneav> (alkisg)
<sbalneav> gksu gksu ls fails on lucid
<ScottK> kblin: IIRC, Debian builds for armv5.  It might be easier to use Debian as a base and then add whatever bits you want that aren't in Debian.
<ScottK> sbalneav: You should probably be looking at policykit integration, not gksu.  I believe the goal is to not have any default sudo rights in Ubuntu Lucid.
<sbalneav> ScottK: As an upstream for sabayon, it runs on linuxes that don't currently support PK.  And I don't see the point in re-writing large chunks of an app to accommodate not fixing somtheing that SHOULD work.
<sebner> bdrung_: mind backporting lintian to karmic once your 2.3 merge has been uploaded? :)
<lamont> so how do I convince firefox to NOT &^(%)^_*(^_*( TAKE FOCUS just because it finished rendering a page?
<lamont> with metacity as a window manager
<asac> lamont: thtas happening if the webpage takes focus. known bug. disabling javascript should help ;)
<asac> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=140346
<ubottu> Mozilla bug 140346 in Tracking "focus stealing tracking bug" [Normal,New]
<lamont> ah. ok.
<lamont> then my only remaining pain is "why did upgrading to karmic make network manager decide that eth0 should be unmanaged"
<lamont> though that one is gonna be a "boot the livecd and see what _that_ does" first
<bdrung_> sebner: no. it's a good idea.
<sebner> bdrung_: great, thanks :)
<bdrung_> sebner: is there something special to know about backporting?
<sebner> bdrung_: as long as it builds, I don't think so ^^ but there is a wiki page somewhere
<bdrung_> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuBackports
<sebner> right
<sebner> ^^
<asac> lamont: eth0 being in e/n/interfaces would do that
<lamont> pretty sure I've done it commented out, removed, with "auto eth0" there and gone
<sbalneav> ScottK: looks like it's going to be kind of hard to convert to polkit-1 when there's no python bindings for it.
<sbalneav> Guess I'll have to fix gksu
<chrisccoulson> sbalneav - we already have other python apps on the desktop using polkit-1
<chrisccoulson> check jockey for example
<sbalneav> chrisccoulson: looked at that.  it's talking raw dbus
<chrisccoulson> sbalneav - jockey uses the org.freedesktop.PolicyKit1.Authority interface directly
<sbalneav> no thanks.
<chrisccoulson> yes
#ubuntu-devel 2009-12-30
<mahngiel> good eve all. just a quick question ( i hope ). i'm looking to find the file location of the gnome menu bar ( the one which displays "applications, places, system')
<mahngiel> i've gone through ~/.config/menus/ and /etc/xdg/menus/ to no avail found the parent editable
<mahngiel>   anywhere i should look???
<mahngiel> i'll re-ask due to new users in chat...
<mahngiel> i'm trying to find the location of the parent 'config (if you will)' for the gnome menu bar that houses "Apps, places, & system'
 * flyback is exhausted
<sbalneav> Could someone with main rights have a quick look at Bug #501559
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 501559 in libgksu "libgksu fails to start many programs, fails with: assert g_str_has_prefix str != NULL" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/501559
<sbalneav> libgksu needs another config flag now, due to changes upstream to restore previous behavior.
<crimsun> sbalneav: is there a solid reason why the change was made to reverse the previous default?
<udiio> Q: can I make dpkg -b follow symlinks instead of putting them as is into the deb?
<udiio> (like tar -h / tar --dereference
<krymel> hi all
<krymel> I'm planning to build a special distribution based uppon 10.04. Some kind of overlay to provide some different packages, removing unneeded etc. Do you know if there is some documentation/howto about this topic?
<krymel> I'm familiar with deb-packaging etc. but not so much with the server side to conigure the meta-informations to provide repositories for the new distribution
<kblin> you want to have a look at documentation on creating your own remix, I guess
<hicham> can plymouth be run on karmic ?
<sbalneav> crimsun: Looks as if this was a patch that was originally in debian.  Patch was moved upstream, but the corresponding --enable wasn't
<sbalneav> So my friend stgraber tells me.
<sbalneav> I discovered it by looking at the code in karmic vs lucid
<sbalneav> by default in karmic, it's always doing the forkpty.
<sbalneav> and that clearly works.
<Quibus> hi all
<Quibus> I've heard from an Ubuntu user that our program (openMSX, also in Ubuntu) hangsup. But when he kills pulse-audio, it works fine.
<Quibus> This is with the standard package
<Quibus> Doesn't this mean something is broken in Ubuntu? :-)
<Tm_T> not automatically
<Quibus> I'm not running Ubuntu, but in principle, installing the package 'openmsx' should give you the command 'openmsx' which should run fine.
<Quibus> And it didn't on his netbook
<Tm_T> Quibus: and openmsx should work just finr with pulseaudio?
<Quibus> Tm_T: it's an SDL app, so it should work like any other SDL app using audio, I guess.
<asac> doko: is gcc-snapshot ready for armel?
<Tm_T> hmm, so it might be pulseaudio causing this, hmm, shame I cannot test
<Quibus> Tm_T: a standard install on a VM might expose the problem
<Quibus> apparently pulseaudio is installed by default nowadays
<Tm_T> I cannot try it in that way either, sorry
<Quibus> Tm_T: on your Ubuntu install, can you just install and run openMSX without problems?
<Quibus> there was apparently also another problem
<Tm_T> Quibus: then I have to set pulseaudio and many other things, too much hussle when I don't have time
<Quibus> nah, you don't need that
<Quibus> Tm_T: can I just bluntly let our (Ubuntu) user remove the pulseaudio package? :-)
<Quibus> Tm_T: who is the Ubuntu maintainer of the openMSX package? All I see is the Debian maintainer, but it works fine on Debian.
<Quibus> Tm_T: apparently files are installed at the wrong place for this package as well. Or for the cbios package, on which it depends.
<Quibus> Tm_T: OK, I've had a chance to contact that user again, and the main problem is still that pulseaudio makes the app hang. Removing it solves the problem.
<sbalneav> Quibus: http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1071066
<sbalneav> Third post.
<sbalneav> need some compat work to get SDL <-> Pulse
<Quibus> sbalneav: we're not talking about choppiness, but just a complete hangup. Only kill -9 kills the app
<sbalneav> We've had problems with Pulse in ltsp, same issue, with pulse hanging.
<Quibus> so, the idea is to let it use the ESD compat and let SDL use esd
<sbalneav> appears with sdl.  Seems sdl doesn't talk nice to pulse, or pulse doesn't talk nice to sdl, or someone's not talking nice to someone. :)
<Quibus> indeed
<sbalneav> Quibus: Worth a try, anyway.
<alkisg> sbalneav: it's a dependency of libsdl, it depends on alsa instead of pulse
 * alkisg looks for one of the 12 reported bugs about it...
<sbalneav> alkisg: yeah, didn't you run into something like this?
<alkisg> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/libsdl1.2/+bug/203158
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 203158 in libsdl1.2 "libsdl1.2debian-pulseaudio must be installed as default by libsdl1.2debian" [Medium,Triaged]
<alkisg> sbalneav: only dozens of times... :)
<alkisg> Reported many of them, but it's just a tiny single line, and it isn't being commited
<alkisg> I don't know why. It just breaks stuff...
<alkisg> Please fix it for Lucid, by putting libsdl1.2debian-pulseaudio first in the libsdl1.2debian dependencies:
<alkisg> Depends: libsdl1.2debian-pulseaudio |  libsdl1.2debian-all | libsdl1.2debian-alsa | libsdl1.2debian-esd | libsdl1.2debian-oss | libsdl1.2debian-nas
<alkisg> That's all there is to it, a small rotation in the Depends line
<sbalneav> Any core devs here willing to make the dep switch?
<sbalneav> alkisg: I thought you had run into this before.
<ScottK> That's not very friendly to the Ubuntu flavors that don't ship pulseaudio
<sbalneav> Quibus: Maybe that will fix your issues.
<Quibus> sbalneav: I'll ask the reporter to do this
<sbalneav> ScottK: So, how would you recommend fixing this behaviour then? Clearly there's a problem between sdl <-> pulse.  Would identifying all SDL packages and making them depend on libsdl1.2debian-pulseaudio be the better way to go?
<ScottK> I haven't had time (and don't) to research it detail, but assuming all Ubuntu users have and use Pulse is not the right way.
<alkisg> ScottK: I don't think it's very friendly break the *primary* Ubuntu flavors for I don't know which others don't ship pulse...
<alkisg> Because right now, sdl is broken in Ubuntu, as it uses pulse by default
<ScottK> Kubuntu for one.
<alkisg> ScottK: and, wouldn't Depends be satisfied if alsa is installed?
<alkisg> No'one proposed to remove sdl-alsa...
<ScottK> If libsdl1.2debian-alsa was installed, yes.
<alkisg> OK, maybe it would work on Kubuntu as well then
<ScottK> But just shoving the pulse one to the front merely shifts the problem.
<alkisg> It surely *doesn't* work in Ubuntu right now... and I think it's the official flavor, no?
<Quibus> sbalneav: just installing the libsdl1.2debian-pulseaudio package doesn't fix the hangup, it seems
<sbalneav> ScottK: Would identifying all SDL applications and dep'ing them on libsld*-pulseaudio be the correct way to approach this?
<Quibus> sbalneav: oh, never mind, maybe it does work
<sbalneav> I'd me more than happy to undertake identifying them, and filing bugs
<sbalneav> Quibus: Ah, good news
<alkisg> sbalneav: I don't think that would be a good approach, as it would require making ubuntu-specific packages for many SDL apps that are now imported as is from debian
<ScottK> sbalneav: I think the trick is needing a smarter way to pick the right sdl flavor, but I'm not certain.
<alkisg> Another way around it would be to make a dummy package, e.g. libsdl-ubuntu
<alkisg> And that package would depend on libsdl-pulse, so it would pull that one
<alkisg> That wouldn't require any maintanance, as it would only be there to select the right dependency
<sbalneav> So you'd depend on libsdl-ubuntu | libsdl-kubuntu | libsdl-edubuntu, etc?
<alkisg> No, ubuntu-desktop would depend on that (or wherever else is the difference between ubuntu/kubuntu)
 * alkisg looks...
<sbalneav> ah
<alkisg> Right, ubuntu-desktop depends on pulseaudio, so it could also depend either on that dummy package, or even directly on libsdl1.2debian-pulseaudio...
<sbalneav> makes sense.
<alkisg> apt-cache rdepends libsdl1.2debian | wc -l
<alkisg> 387
<alkisg> All those 387 apps break in a default ubuntu installation, because of the dependency problem.
<Quibus> yay
<Quibus> And this is not a release critical bug??
<sbalneav> Well, you'd think it would be, especially since some of the rdepends are in main.
<hyperair> hmm that sdl issue rears its head again
 * hyperair sighs
 * ScottK wonders where is crimsun when you need him.
<hyperair> heh
 * alkisg has seen dozens of bugs about it in launchpad, with dozens of duplicates for each of them :(
<hyperair> lemme dig in my logs. i think i was talking to crimsun about this last time..
<sbalneav> Well, it'll keep rearing it's head until we whack on the head sufficiently hard enough to make it go away. :)
<hyperair> 2009-11.log:04:28 <dtchen_> ugh. Ubuntu needs libsdl1.2debian-pulseaudio on the discs as opposed to libsdl1.2debian-alsa. Which is going to be tough because Kubuntu and Xubuntu don't ship PulseAudio.
<hyperair> 2009-12.log:15:19 <micahg> pitti: it's for libsdl1.2debian
<hyperair> 2009-12.log:09:22 <dtchen> crypt-0: what, using libsdl1.2debian-pulseaudio as a workaround? sure, that's a *workaround*. it doesn't at all address the fundamental bug.
<hyperair> and it seems i was talking to themuso at that time
<hyperair> speaking of whacking things on the head, my head feels pretty whacked up @_@
<micahg> hyperair: he just gave an IRC session on fixing alsa bugs
<hyperair> ah
<hyperair> micahg: well this is more of a dependency issue rather than anything..
<hyperair> how about pulseaudio recommending libsdl1.2debian-pulseaudio?
<alkisg> Isn't it possible to put it in the Dependencies of ubuntu-desktop, as that's the package that seperates Ubuntu from the other flavors?
<sbalneav> apt's installing the recommends' now, iirc?  That might work.
<hyperair> yeah it should be possible, but the thing is.. do you want libsdl installed by default?
<micahg> hyperair: crimsun said that was only a workaround per my discussion with him, he said someone needs to actually fix it :) here's a link to the training session: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Packaging/Training/Logs/2009-12-27
<alkisg> It is installed by default, though...
<hyperair> alkisg: it is?!
<alkisg> Yeah, I can see it in the alpha Lucid live cd
<alkisg> The -alsa one, I mean
<hyperair> micahg: i don't see anything of sdl in the training session
<micahg> hyperair: the training session was for alsa bugs, where I thought the problem with sdl was
<hyperair> ah
<hyperair> no the problem here is that the wrong flavour of sdl is being installed by default
<micahg> hyperair: I had that argument already as you posted a few minutes ago :)
<hyperair> heh
 * micahg will be quiet now :)
<wind-rider> hi
<hyperair> libsdl seems to be pretty tiny
<hyperair> i think we can install it by default..
<wind-rider> i have a question about adding keysyms to xkb
<hyperair> wind-rider: #ubuntu
<wind-rider> hyperair: i'd like to add them upstream
<hyperair> oh. upstream.
<hyperair> er
<hyperair> file a bug?
<wind-rider> hyperair: i though #ubuntu is for "customer support"
<hyperair> yeah, sorry
<hyperair> i thought you were asking about how to add keysyms to some config file in $HOME
<wind-rider> hyperair: that can be done using a xmodmap file
<wind-rider> hyperair: indeed
<hyperair> mmhmm
<hyperair> wind-rider: so which upstream do you mean?
<wind-rider> hyperair: but i have a sony vaio sr-series laptop which has some hotkeys and a mode- and settings-button for them
<hyperair> ah
<hyperair> i see
<wind-rider> hyperair: i think something should be added to the xkb-data package
<hyperair> hmmmm
<hyperair> i'm not sure where it goes
<hyperair> wasn't it supposed to go through udev or something...
<hyperair> @_@
<wind-rider> hyperair: like this: https://wiki.edubuntu.org/Hotkeys/Architecture
<wind-rider> hyperair: i think udev is when there is no keycode yet
<hyperair> ah
<hyperair> right
<wind-rider> hyperair: but these keys already generate a keycode, only they do not have a X11 keysym
<hyperair> basically you're saying that xev has your keycode, right?
<hyperair> oh
<wind-rider> hyperair: xev returns the keycode, but 'NoSymbol' as keysym
<hyperair> i see.
<hyperair> well i'm not sure where that goes =p
<wind-rider> hyperair: and that makes that i can't use them in qt or kde
<wind-rider> hyperair: i think i have to use http://www.freedesktop.org/wiki/Software/XKeyboardConfig/Rules
<wind-rider> hyperair: but i could use some help
<hyperair> wind-rider: are you sure? if xev can capture it, it can be used.
<hyperair> wind-rider: as a hotkey i mean
<hyperair> my keyboard used to have missing keysyms too
<hyperair> it gave me a bunch of 0xwhatever
<wind-rider> hyperair: in gnome, yes, but not in kde
<hyperair> ah
<hyperair> KDE's fault then
<wind-rider> hyperair: you mean using gnome-keybinding-settings or so?
<hyperair> yes
<hyperair> but you did mention that gnome yes but not in kde
<wind-rider> hyperair: well, qt and kde do not respond that way
<hyperair> so go file a bug in KDE
<hyperair> or QT
<hyperair> or whichever is at fault
<hyperair> i'd sugget that you also file a bug with xkb
<wind-rider> hyperair: kde is qt-based
<hyperair> or wherever the keysyms come from
<hyperair> wind-rider: i'm very well aware of that.
<wind-rider> hyperair: i meant the fact that it doesn't work in kde is because it doesn't work in qt
<hyperair> but is the library that lacks support for it qt or kde?
<hyperair> ah
<wind-rider> hyperair: but i
<hyperair> i thought KDE was the one that handled hotkeys...
<hyperair> Qt's just a graphical toolkit
<wind-rider> hyperair: it's qt, see http://api.kde.org/4.0-api/kdelibs-apidocs/kdeui/html/classKShortcut.html#16c533665594ce8b5bf0f756a68a863c
<hyperair> aha i see
<wind-rider> qt also passes the keys
<wind-rider> in a qkeysequence
<hyperair> i see
<hyperair> so file a bug in qt
<hyperair> and also file a bug in xkb so that the keysym comes around
<wind-rider> qts keys are mapped to x11s keysyms
<hyperair> meh.
<hyperair> bad design >_>
<wind-rider> hyperair: so if a x11-binding is lacking, it doesn't work i thing
<hyperair> hence bad design
<hyperair> so file a bug
<wind-rider> i can do that, but i'd like to do something about the x11 keysym using http://www.freedesktop.org/wiki/Software/XKeyboardConfig/Rules
<wind-rider> and i was hoping somebody could help me here
<hyperair> i think #ubuntu-x would have more people who could help you with this..
<hyperair> i'm not familiar with this
<wind-rider> ok, i did not know that channel exists
<hyperair> =)
<hyperair> either way you should still file a bug first
<hyperair> in the upstream bug tracker
<hyperair> *trackers
<hyperair> qt inclusive
<hyperair> i'd consider it a bug to not be able to handle sequences that are caught correctly by xev
<wind-rider> hyperair: you could say that, yes
<wind-rider> hyperair: i see qt can return scancodes instead of a 'recognized' key
<wind-rider> hyperair: but that those are probably not used in kde
<hyperair> then it would be a fault of KDE
<hyperair> so the bug would go there
<wind-rider> hyperair: thanks for thinking along!
<hyperair> np
<alkisg> How can I find out which package pulls libsdl in the default ubuntu installation? I've got a Lucid live cd on a vbox right now if it helps...
<wind-rider> hyperair: bug reported: https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=220712
<ubottu> KDE bug 220712 in shortcuts "KDE can not use keys as shortcut that do not have a X11 keysym" [Normal,Unconfirmed]
 * hyperair claps
<wind-rider> :)
<ScottK> alkisg: aptitude why [packagename] may help.
<alkisg> ScottK: thanks, just got it with rdepends and grepping,
<alkisg> it's libgegl
<sbalneav> Prolly for the killer gegls easter egg
<alkisg> Ahm... is gimp going to be dropped in Lucid? If so, it appears that it'll take libsdl with it (on the default installation...)
<ScottK> That's also not directly seeded.
<ScottK> alkisg: My understanding is it's not going to be in the default Ubuntu install.
<ScottK> alkisg: Yes, it's just on the dvd now.
<alkisg> Hmm then forcing ubuntu-desktop to include libsdl-pulse won't have any chances of being accepted... :(
<ScottK> I'd guesss not.
<wind-rider> hyperair: i must go, bye!
 * hyperair waves
<sbalneav> So, then looks like a recommends on pulseaudio would be the way to go.
<tmus> debootstrap'ing an ubuntu system leaves me with a keyboard that doesn't work with danish chars... Everything else appears to work fine and the keyboard and fonts have been configured. I suspect some important library is missing from the debootstrap based installation, but cannot figure out which one... Any idea? And should it be fixed?
<ScottK> sbalneav: For which package?
<alkisg> For libsdl1.2debian-pulseaudio, I imagine...
<sbalneav> pulseaudio itself?  That way, if your ubuntu flavour installs pulse, you'll get the recommended sdl
<sbalneav> ah, sorry, misunderstood the question.
<ScottK> Having pulseaudio recommend libsdl1.2debian-pulseaudio would also pull it onto the CD.
<siretart> is that something we would want? do we have any sdl using applications on the CD?
<ScottK> siretart: We don't anymore.
<sbalneav> bbiab
<alkisg> It's already on the CD
<ScottK> alkisg: Why?
<alkisg> I mean that it is, *currently*
<ScottK> Didn't you just say that gimp was the only thing pulling it on?
<alkisg> Yup
<ScottK> Gimp isn't on the CD in Lucid.
<alkisg> It is, on my alpha..
<ScottK> Grepping the seeds produces ubuntu.lucid/dvd: * gimp
<alkisg> Well I just booted with the live cd!?? /me rechecks...
<siretart> alkisg: try today's daily...
<alkisg> siretart: well, that would take me hours :)
<alkisg> If it was removed after the alpha, sure, I'm just reporting what I see on my live cd...
<ScottK> alkisg: bzr log says: http://paste.debian.net/55247/
<alkisg> OK. So. A user installs Lucid. Then he installs tuxpaint. The -alsa flavor of libsdl gets installed, and tuxpaint just hangs.
<alkisg> How can that be fixed? I assume modifying 387 packages is not an option, and neither is shipping a different libsdl dummy package for Ubuntu than the one for Kubuntu...
<ScottK> So the question would be what bug was crimsun saying seeding the pulse version was just a work around for and how to get it fixed?
<alkisg> So what other solutions are there?
 * ScottK wonders if hyperair has that in his logs too?
<hyperair> ScottK: hmm? what about?
<ScottK> [11:54:47] <hyperair> 2009-12.log:09:22 <dtchen> crypt-0: what, using libsdl1.2debian-pulseaudio as a workaround? sure, that's a *workaround*. it doesn't at all address the fundamental bug.
<ScottK> So what's the fundamental bug?
<hyperair> lemme see
<alkisg> http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2009/12/08/%23ubuntu-devel.txt
<ScottK> alkisg: What time?
<hyperair> 09:22 UTC+0800
<alkisg> ScottK: [01:22] <dtchen> crypt-0: what, using libsdl1.2debian-pulseaudio as a workaround? sure, that's a *workaround*. it doesn't at all address the fundamental bug.
<ScottK> Thanks
<hyperair> something about not syncing hw ptr
<hyperair> nothing much was said there
<ScottK> Different issue.
<alkisg> Does "Depends: A | B" *always* installs "A" if neither of those packages are already installed?
<alkisg> Or is there some way to alter the priorities?
<alkisg> Hmmm what about "pulseaudio => conflicts: libsdl-alsa"?
<Quibus> What you seem to need is: "if installed(pulseaudio) && needs(libsdl) { install(libsdl-pulsaudio) } so to speak
<ScottK> Which isn't supported.
 * ScottK punts to crimsun.
<hyperair> wait, what alkisg said makes sense, doesn't it?
<hyperair> if pulseaudio conflicts all the libsdls except pulseaudio, then it would force the pulseaudio libsdl to be installed, right?
<ScottK> It might.  I'd have to test it to make sure.
<alkisg> ScottK: I can test it if that'll help in solving the problem. What do I do, build a pulseaudio with "conflicts: libsdl-* except pulse", then install it over the current lucid daily CD, then try to install tuxpaint and see what it gets me?
<ScottK> alkisg: Sounds reasonable.
<alkisg> OK, will report back in a few hours, when I download the CD... :-/
<ScottK> I'd still want to hear from someone who understands SDL better than me to make sure we aren't just creating another problem.
<alkisg> (ehm, or I could make a test case with similar dependencies, that'd be much faster...)
<ScottK> You could also upload your test package to a PPA now, so it'd be ready after you had the CD downloaded.
<alkisg> OK, I'll do that. I hope it'll be worth it... :)
<kblin> oh, cool, I found a regression bug :)
<kblin> to reopen a bug, I just need to set the status of the bug from fix released to new, right?
<ScottK> kblin: It's probably better to file a new bug with a link to the old one as often different issues can have similar symptoms.
<ScottK> If a developer agrees the old bug should be reopened, they can do that and mark your new one as a dupe.
<kblin> ScottK: it's the exact same thing..
<ScottK> kblin: Unless you have a patch, you can't really say that for sure.  I see bugs get reopened all the time and it's almost never the same cause.
<kblin> ScottK: the msmtp package doesn't provide "mail-transport-agent", so you can't install that and then mutt without pulling in postfix (or some other mta)
<kblin> it's a packaging bug
<kblin> it looks like this was fixed for feisty, but in karmic I see the same issue
<ScottK> kblin: Yes, but not in msmtp.  It's not an MTA.
<kblin> huh? how is that not an mta?
<ScottK> "light SMTP client"
<ScottK> Being an SMTP client is approximately half of being an MTA.
<kblin> fair enough, so it's a mutt packaging bug
<ScottK> Seems reasonable to me.
<kblin> I'll file a bug againt mutt then
<kblin> but given that the deb for msmtp says "msmtp is an SMTP client that can be used to send mails from Mutt", it's a bit silly that you can't use it for just that :)
<kblin> but I see the reasoning for considering this a mutt bug
<alkisg> The current lucid daily *still* has "autologin not working" problem, like the edubuntu daily I tried 3 days ago also had.
<krymel> re
<alkisg> It also has gimp and libsdl installed. Removing to properly test...
<krymel> my connection was broken last time I asked this: my question was regarding the infrastructure to host packages of the distro. When I want to host all packages of ubuntu lucid on a local http server to have a local shadow mirror copy - is there a howto or documentation how to do this?
<bigon> Hi, could someone gives back https://edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/plexus-active-collections ?? I cannot
<kblin> krymel: as I said before, you'll want to look at documentation about creating your own remix. :)
<krymel> ah ok :) thats the naming :)
<krymel> thank you!
<krymel> "remix" :-D
<kblin> no problem :)
<krymel_> member:kblin: maybe you have a link for me pointing to the howto? I cannot find it on google (sry)
<naxa> hi. ok. can you help me to build GTK+ on Karmic? :) I'm a complete noob
<naxa> I've tried to follow jhbuild's docs but it's so outdated that jhbuild says me it's missing it's jhbuild  python module... (???)
<naxa> (or maybe I did something wrong :D)
<naxa> (hopefully not)
<naxa> ok maybe I should extract it and configure make make install but I thought jhbuild is out there for some reason
<naxa> well, never mind.. :)
<naxa> bye
<hggdh> regarding bug 383502 -- should we move to coreutils timeout, or simply set WONTFIX?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 383502 in coreutils "coreutils' timeout(1) is missing" [Undecided,Incomplete] https://launchpad.net/bugs/383502
 * flyback bbl gotta shutdown while they rewire
<crimsun> ScottK: / sbalneav: the issue lies in alsa-plugins, but we may be able to hack around it in pulseaudio
 * ScottK fixed the powerpc build failure, but that's about as far as I can go on SDL.
<alkisg> ScottK, crimsun: I tried to make pulseaudio conflict with the other libsdl flavors, but I had no success. aptitude was able to installl e.g. tuxpaint afterwards (with solution score=50), but apt-get was unable to.
<crimsun> ugh
<crimsun> please don't do silly things with libsdl
<crimsun> everyone involved knows about the nastiness, and it will be addressed in January
<crimsun> again, we have a number of issues to walk:
<crimsun> 1) unnecessary wakeups in the pcm core of alsa-kernel
<crimsun> 2) incorrect (delayed) "hw ptr" tracking in the pulse alsa-plugin
<crimsun> 3) races in PA
<alkisg> OK, there are bugs that need to be solved. I still don't understand how SDL is going to use pulse by default on Ubuntu, instead of alsa.
<crimsun> alkisg: it can't
<crimsun> libsdl1.2debian-pulseaudio is in universe, for starters
<alkisg> So is libsdl1.2debian-alsa
<crimsun> that doesn't even matter
<crimsun> libsdl1.2debian is in main
<crimsun> that has a dependency on libsdl1.2debian-all
<alkisg> Here's a problem: a user installs ltsp and tuxpaint. Both are in main. But the sound doesn't work and the application hangs.
<alkisg> Even if it worked, it would come out of the server's speakers, instead of the thin client's, if pulse wasn't used
<alkisg> So it's still a bug in main that needs to be solved.
<alkisg> Since ubuntu is using pulse, sdl needs to also use pulse by default...
<crimsun> I've already outlined the three components that need to be fixed
<crimsun> please feel free to contribute resources to fix them
<alkisg> But the main problem wasn't addressed
<alkisg> Even if those problems are fixed, still the ltsp/sdl problem remains
<alkisg> (unless I didn't understand something, of course)
<alkisg> In any case, thank you for your time...
<crimsun> well, the crux of your ltsp/libsdl issue is that it's easy to fix for "Ubuntu" and simultaneously break Kubuntu and Xubuntu
<alkisg> Right. I wish the packagement system was clever enough to understand that we want libsdl-pulse when we are using pulseaudio.
<crimsun> so, either Ubuntu gains an explicit seed for libsdl1.2debian-pulseaudio and Kubuntu/Xubuntu, libsdl1.2debian-all instead, stuff is going to break.
<crimsun> I don't think (at least offhand) that the package manager has to do anything special. Just the seeds need to be changed.
<alkisg> Would that be too bad? (including a seed for libsdl1.2debian-pulseaudio)
<alkisg> It isn't a big library...
<crimsun> I don't think so as long as the corresponding change for Kubuntu & Xubuntu (libsdl1.2debian-all) are made simultaneously.
<_zap_> hi. i would like to install (k)ubuntu on a loop-aes encrypted root.
<_zap_> for this it seems i have to modify the installation cd
<_zap_> which is ok
<_zap_> but i don't see how i can make tell the graphical installer to install ubuntu on /dev/loopX instead of the hard disk
<_zap_> is there a way to do that?
<wgrant> _zap_: #ubuntu can help you.
<_zap_> ok#
<krymel> has anyone an idea where I can find an irc room for asking questions regarding to special topics in linux network stack implementation?
<crimsun> if there aren't references from either linux-netdev or kernelnewbies, then I don't know offhand
<_zap_> krymel: if it's about kernel programming you could try ##kernel
<krymel> thanks, _zap_
<_zap_> krymel: np
<crimsun> ok, I'll be sending out an e-mail to ubuntu-devel{,-discuss}, but I'm disabling powerdown for all HDA controllers due to our kernel being unlikely to ship the necessary patches
<crimsun> One side effect is that your glitching and popping after 10 seconds (or coming back from idle) will disappear
<crimsun> Since my patches to fix these issues have already been merged into ALSA 1.0.22.1, they'll likely land in a linux-backports-modules-alsa-lucid-generic or something, so people who really want the additional 0.5W-0.7W savings can install that package
<BUGabundo> evening guys
<BUGabundo>  ERROR: ioctl() [No such file or directory][2]
<BUGabundo> rings any bells to anyone ?
<BUGabundo> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/n2n/+bug/501768
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 501768 in n2n "ERROR: ioctl() [No such file or directory][2]" [Undecided,New]
<crimsun> I just gave you a pointer in +1
 * BUGabundo checks
#ubuntu-devel 2009-12-31
<Quibus> any news on the SDL/pulseaudio bug?
<Quibus> oh, I see I missed something
<Quibus> anyway, thanks and good night
<drdr> Howdy
<Jeeves_> Hi. I'm trying to add a package to a PPA, which does build on amd64, but not on i386
<Jeeves_> It fails on dh_testdir, which is kinda odd?
<Jeeves_> http://launchpadlibrarian.net/37324476/buildlog_ubuntu-karmic-i386.bitcron_2.0-20091230.01_FAILEDTOBUILD.txt.gz
<Jeeves_> Anyone here that can hit me with the cluebat?
<directhex> missing debhelper build-dep ?
<Jeeves_> Hm, yes. That might be it
<Jeeves_> I should put that in the control-file right? (/me is a bit of a newbe)
<sebner> Jeeves_: yep
<Jeeves_> Hmm
<Jeeves_> In the 'Source:' block, not the package block?
<directhex> Jeeves_, in the build-depends line.
<bigon> could someone gives back https://edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/plexus-active-collections ?
<ScottK> bigon: Since it was dep wait for Karmic, it has no Lucid build record.  It needs an upload.
<bigon> mmm ok
<bigon> I will do it then (I wasn't sure)
<bigon> ScottK: on karmic or lucid?
<ScottK> bigon: Lucid.  If you want it for Karmic, it would take an SRU.
<bigon> right
<StevenK> Just make it a build1
<StevenK> Then we can keep syncing with Debian
<frubi> hi guys
<frubi> how do i submit a fix for just one bug? i have found a lot of documentation in the wiki, but i don't found the right resources
<sbalneav> frubi: Usually, just attach a patch, or comment to the bug itself.
<sbalneav> Which bug # is it?
<frubi> sbalneav: #133520
<sbalneav> So, you have a patch for that?
<frubi> it is not ready yet, i need to do some more testing
<sbalneav> Well, when you have one, I'd say best course of action would be just to attach it to the bug itself.
<sbalneav> Even better if you make a build of your own in your PPA
<frubi> sbalneav: thanks for your help
<sbalneav> frubi: NP
#ubuntu-devel 2010-01-01
<Drakeson> gnome-terminal is excruciatingly slow to start for me (in lucid). could you please test it and see how long does it take to launch? (time gnome-terminal -x true) -> about 3.0 seconds
<morphias> question.  would it be a bug if bluetooth works correctly under a warm boot vs a cold boot?
<crimsun> maybe. Depends on a number of factors in the BT stack. Start with what udev tells you.
<crimsun> is there anything preventing us from moving to fuse 2.8.1-1.1 as a base?
<bluefoxicy> WHAT THE FUCK?
<bluefoxicy> Apparently Pidgin likes to message EVERYONE you have a tab open to
<bluefoxicy> at midnight, Jan 1
<bluefoxicy> I don't recall configuring this, at all
<bluefoxicy> In fact I'm pretty sure if I stumbled across configuration for this, I'd disable it
<tilt> bluefoxicy: :D
<bluefoxicy> I don't want shit randomly doing things without my permission or prior consent
<tilt> it's very funny, sorry ;)
<tilt> secret spam routine popping up once a year
<tilt> hard to debug
<[reed]> bluefoxicy: what did it say?
<hikenboot> hello i dont know if this is the place to make note of it, but I found an interesting problem with /tmp if you install and run gnome, shut down the system and boot from a live cd--chroot into the install and wipe tmp and install encryption, something is apparently lost with gnome since it gives an error (sorry cant say what it is cause i was unable to recover and had to reinstall, apparently gnome is unable to regenerate some
<hikenboot> thing it needs in the /tmp folder
<hikenboot> this causes the problem where a random key can not be used because it needs to be preserved
<Cheery> hi. In ubuntu you can open files into programs through nautilus
<Cheery> how to debug it?
<Cheery> I have a scripted UI -thing I'd want to use in opening few files, but I can't get it working.
<Cheery> oh yeah. gnome-open helped
#ubuntu-devel 2010-01-02
<rovanion> I'm trying to build despotify on Ubuntu 9.10 but when trying to make I get a good couple of errors: http://pastebin.org/70412 And please point me in the right direction if I'm in the wrong channel
<emgent> dendrobates: ola ;)
<dendrobates> emgent: hi
<geser> rovanion: looks like you're missing libao-dev (at least, perhaps other packages too)
<rovanion> Thank you a lot geser, have a great day!
<ScottK> jdstrand: I see from LP you're working on the Spamassassin Y2010 problem.
<ScottK> Which releases are you doing?
<ScottK> I'll do the others
 * ion laughs at http://people.canonical.com/~scott/daily-bootcharts/
<ScottK> jdstrand: Nevermind.  Saw your note in the bug now.
<reduz> guys, simple question, WHY is pulseaudio used by default in ubuntu? it's always broken and full of bugs on every machine i installed ubuntu
<reduz> crashes, causes sound corruption, etc since at least 3 ubuntu versions
<reduz> or goes to 100% CPU when using small buffers
<hunger> reduz: No idea! It is even installed in kubuntu for some reason.
<ion> Theoretically, something like PulseAudio is totally the right way to go. As for anecdotes, hereâs another: it works fine for me. :-P
<hunger> ion: Why is pulseaudio the right way to go? I thought alsa made this whole audio daemon crap obsolete.
<alkisg> alsa can't stream over the network. So pulseaudio is required for thin clients (just _my_ case)...
<reduz> well, over here pulseaudio corrupts sound
<reduz> the begining of each sound
<ion> Audio interfaces that look like youâre communicating directly with the hardware has problems. For instance, network transparency is not nice to achieve with them. They have hard time providing low latency for applications requiring it and low CPU use for applications that donât need low latency. Something that provides a higher-level interface is good.
<reduz> ion, yeah because of something that 0.001% of the people using a desktop need, you add a whole new layer of complexity you have to mantain and bugs often for 99.9999% of the rest of the users. That's not good thinking
<ScottK> hunger: Pulseaudio is not part of the standard Kubuntu install.  If you have it then it was dragged in as a recommends/depends of something else you installed.
<ion> reduz: Switch the numbers with each other.
<reduz> ion, network transparency? i think not
<ScottK> ion: I have yet to require any of Pulseaudio's unique functionality.
<ion> Low CPU use when needed, low latency when needed.
<ScottK> (not saying some people don't need it, but it's certainly not everyone)
<reduz> ion, sorry, but pulseaudio is not low latency friendly
<reduz> it climbs to 100% cpu in most cases, while regular alsa or OSS4 do fine
<reduz> even the own pulseaudio developers aknowledge that it's not low latency friendly
<ScottK> reduz: It's a decision that was made 2 years ago, so there's no chance of them going back.  It's really not worth your time to argue about.
<reduz> ScottK, i don't mind pulseaudio itself, but that it's full of bugs :(
<ion> reduz: It can provide lower latency than the hardware itself can provide by using an accurate timer to put new audio data just after the hardware play position instead of having to rely on interrupts from the hardware requesting new audio data early.
<ion> That means long hardware buffers can be used, which means less interrupts, which means either low CPU use or low latency, depending on what the application request.
<ScottK> ion: Then why isn't it used in Ubuntu Studio? I'd think they'd want that.
<reduz> ion, what you are saying makes no sense at all. if the app request a certain latency, pulseaudio shouldn't do anything
<reduz> ion, apps already know what latenc they need, otherwise they wouldn't pass a buffersize as opening param
<ion> scottk: At the moment, JACK is better for professional audio, since it provides audio (and MIDI IIRC) routing within and between applications. Perhaps theyâll be merged one day.
<ion> reduz: Youâre still thinking at too low level.
<reduz> ion, i understand what you mean, but then again, that's too dependent on hardware as far as i remember
<reduz> as in, not all hardware works the same way
<ion> PulseAudio could, for instance, take 20 seconds of audio ahead from an MP3 player. If you seek or jump to another song, it can drop the buffer, immediately start playing the new thing, taking a short chunk of new audio initially and then taking exponentially longer chunks up to the upper limit if thereâs no further user changes.
<ion> An interface that looks like the applicationâs banging raw hardware just canât provide something like that.
<ScottK> slangasek or jdstrand (you two are the only ubuntu-sru members connected at the moment): Please have a look at Bug #502071 as it's a pretty urgent SRU (impact can be as bad as all not explicitly whitelisted mail gets marked spam).
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 502071 in spamassassin "FH_DATE_PAST_20XX scores on all mails dated 2010 or later" [High,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/502071
<ScottK> Sorry, jdstrand/jdong
<ion> reduz: All PC audio hardware provides a buffer of certain length and at least interrupts.
<ion> Thatâs pretty much all you need to do the magic PulseAudio does. The MacOSX audio system does the same.
<reduz> ion, well, to make it short, pulseaudio is bugged on my system and sound is all corrupted. Any idea how to fix it or hints on how to find a similar report?
<reduz> ion, or at least how to disable it?
<ion> The usual way. Search at launchpad. If no-one has reported the same issue, run apport-bug pulseaudio.
<ion> Ubuntuâs PulseAudio packaging is a bit crippled in 9.10, that can cause problems. Lucid fixes part of that (rtkit) but not yet everything (flat-volumes).
<jdong> ScottK: ACKed. Ouch, what a painful way to welcome the new year
<reduz> well, i'm left with no audio again
<reduz> it's been 3 ubuntu versions i can't use alsa+pulse because pulseaudio fucks up
<ScottK> Thanks jdong.  I'll accept them.
<reduz> so i guess i'll go install OSS4.. again
<alkisg> reduz: if those sound problems are with SDL apps, there are known workarounds...
<reduz> alkisg, no, happens for every single app
<alkisg> ok
<reduz> pulseaudio just probably dislikes my pro-soundcard
<reduz> alsa/oss work fine with it
<reduz> as well as windows
<reduz> eh
<reduz> where is asoundconf? :(
<reduz> guess it's gone in 9.10
<reduz> it seems pulse cannot be removed in ubuntu anymore?
<reduz> ah found to do it
<reduz> and as usual, sound works flawlessly without it
<reduz> ah... mixer applet no longer works without pulseaudio, good.
<reduz> well, guys i really appreciate your work but it seems ubuntu is no longer for me
<hyperair> how does one boot ubuntu in rc 3 instead of rc 2?
<sladen> upgrade
<ion> hyperair: Pass 3 as a parameter to Linux.
<lamont> is there a magic command to fetch-n-install ddebs?  or do I just fetch'em manually?
<bdrung_> ScottK: is my answer to bug #500870 enough?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 500870 in lintian "Please merge lintian 2.3.0 (main) from Debian unstable (main)." [Wishlist,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/500870
<ScottK> Looking
<bdrung_> ScottK: why not carrying this patch until either cdbs or the policy is fixed?
<ScottK> bdrung_: The CDBS change is on purpose to save CD space and because of the way it works, should always be policy compliant.  There may be other cases that the lintian check legitimately catches.
<ScottK> So there isn't any fixing of policy or CDBS to do.
<ScottK> Can you make it so that instead of turning off the check entirely, it's only turned off for CDBS packages that do the symlinking by design in Ubuntu?
<geser> lamont: if I read the manpage of "apport-retrace" correctly it should install the needed ddebs for you (if you have a .crash file)
<bdrung_> ScottK: that could work. a package is a CDBS package when it build-depends on cdbs?
<ScottK> I'd assume so.  I can't think of another reason to build-dep on CDBS.
<ScottK> bdrung_: For bonus points, only stop the check if you're running on Ubuntu.  Then maybe the patch could go upstream and we could sync again.
<bdrung_> ScottK: we can't check, if we are running on ubuntu
<ScottK> bdrung_: But you can check if the package has an ubuntu version string
<bdrung_> ScottK: that's not enough. synced package will have symlinks, too.
<ScottK> bdrung_: Who runs lintian on sync'ed packages?
<bdrung_> ScottK: me :)
<ScottK> Then you're free to ignore it.
<ScottK> We had lintian sync'ed from Debian before and I think that's a good general state of affairs.
<bdrung_> ScottK: for example i work on audacity. i build it on ubuntu and test it there, but upload it to debian. therefore i will see this warning every time.
<ScottK> bdrung_: You should also build it on Debian.
<bdrung_> ScottK: before uploading i build it in a sid pbuilder environment.
<bdrung_> ScottK: should i work on the cdbs check, or do you insist on syncing?
<ScottK> bdrung_: Even if it's uploaded to Ubuntu first, I'd like to have something that might get accepted upstream.
<ScottK> Other potential sponsors may have a different view.
<bdrung_> ScottK: there is probably no way to get it into debian (without playing with lsb_release), have a look at http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=536434
<ubottu> Debian bug 536434 in lintian "[checks/changelog-file] don't check debian-changelog-file-is-a-symlink for Ubuntu packages" [Wishlist,Open]
<ScottK> bdrung_: Given what I've suggested is already in Lintian, yes, I think it should be sync'ed.
<bdrung_> ScottK: is there a special procedure for package removals, or is it just filing a bug report and subscribing ubuntu-archive?
<ScottK> bdrung_: That's mostly it.  There's a wiki page that says what needs to go in the bug.  I don't recall which one.
<geser> I check rbuild-dependes, rdepends (and mention the status) and mention the reasons for the removal (e.g. existing Debian removal bug)
<bdrung_> geser: can i request two removal in one bug report or should i split it? (remove A and B, B depends on A)
<geser> in that case I'd use one bug (either both go or both stay)
#ubuntu-devel 2010-01-03
<lamont> geser: interesting - I could have sworn I nuked apport after it blissfully uploaded sensitive info the last time I was stupid enough to run it
<lamont> so yeah, no .crash file - firefox is to $something to actually leave one of those lying around for me.
<lamont> OTOH, -dbgsym isn't too hard to figure out, either
<ebroder> So...what and to whom do I have to sacrifice to see a new version of LVM pulled into lucid? cjwatson? :)
<ScottK> bdrung_: New lintian release.  You ought to update for that in any case.
 * ogra wonders if non english README and Changelog files are allowed in a package 
 * ogra tries to package some SW that only has german files 
<aburch> ogra: Why not? (For example `anthy' has mostly Japanese documentation)
<ogra> great, i suspected it but i wasnt sure
<aburch> (though anthy is not really useful if you don't understand any Japanese)
<ogra> well, the software i package is for hardware only available in german speaking countries atm
<ogra> so its not much different
<DrSyk> Which channel should I use for discussion of app development on Ubu?
<alkisg> libsdl1.2debian-alsa is an ubuntu-desktop task package. Can it be substituted by libsdl1.2debian-pulseaudio, so that sdl sound isn't by default broken in Ubuntu? Unfortunately, libsdl1.2debian-alsa is in main, and libsdl1.2debian-pulseaudio is in universe, so the latter would need to be included in main as well.
<verb3k> Please someone upgrade libfribidi to the 0.19, it's very very old in the repositories. See here https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/fribidi/+bug/191241
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 191241 in fribidi "New upstream version 0.19.1" [Wishlist,Confirmed]
<verb3k> is this the right place to ask for this?
<verb3k> this package affects mplayer and VLC
<persia> verb3k: The right place to ask is the bug report
<verb3k> the bug report has been open since 2008
<persia> True, but that doesn't make asking here best.  That package hasn't been modified in Ubuntu before, and appears to be languishing in Debian as well.
<verb3k> so, all people affected by this bug should comment on the bug and say what?
<persia> Hrm.  That's the tricky bit.  While our channel and support policies don't mandate an upgrade, I'm not sure that more comments in the report would make much difference wither.
<verb3k> unless we bug someone with some sort of deciding power, nothing is likely to change
<persia> Well, one way to address it would be to prepare an update of the package and submit to a sponsor for uploading.
<persia> What the bug needs is someone to do the development work, rather than someone to point it out again.
<verb3k> I am no dev, but I can tell it's not much work
<persia> Indeed: the work is usually more in tracking the changes and keeping something modified from Debian up-to-date, on an ongoing basis.
<verb3k> and I can't do it because I don't have packaging exp
<persia> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/PackagingGuide/Complete#Updating%20an%20Ubuntu%20Package has some instructions on how one might update a package.
<persia> And https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SponsorshipProcess discusses how to get the results uploaded.
<persia> But your best options are either to wait for someone else to do it or do it yourself.
<verb3k> Thanks persia, hope for some results after I try this
<persia> verb3k: Best of luck.  From the bug report, it looks like it would improve the experience for a number of users.
<verb3k> been messing around with libfibidi 0.19.2, I don't think I will get it updated in Lucid without some help from an experienced packager
<persia> verb3k: What seems to be the issue?
<verb3k> I was digging in the guides you linked and I found out that I can't easily do it myself, the only option is to ask someone with experience to do it
<persia> Did you get stuck trying to do it?
<verb3k> sort of
<persia> On which part?
<verb3k> even if I can make a proper package I will still be skeptical if it is to be in main
<verb3k> it has to be done by a real packager
<persia> Why?
<verb3k> I'm a layman
<persia> So?  Many of the people who work on packages in Ubuntu would describe themselves that way when the started.
<persia> Did you try the update?  Did it work?  Did something go wrong?
<verb3k> Since libfribidi is a library, it comes with other dependencies like -dev stuff which also need to be packaged, but the examples show a single and simple packaging of a single program, that's why I think I won't be able to do it with my limited knowledge
<persia> verb3k: Ah, I understand.  Someone appears to have produced a .deb in the bug report: perhaps they may be willing to help provide an update.
<verb3k> How about you helping out?  :)
<persia> I'm just heading to bed.  I could help some, but like you, I can't upload it :)
<verb3k> well then, I will bug you tomorrow :D
<verb3k> seriously, a lot of users will be grateful for anyone fixing this
<persia> Tomorrow is tight for me, but I might be able to look at it later in the week.  That said, I do suspect you'd get a faster response by asking the person who already updated it to 0.20 (in the bug report) to submit source.
<verb3k> I'll try that to
<verb3k> too*
<verb3k> Apparently he's only registered in LP to post that deb, after that he's inactive. (I can tell from his account information)
<verb3k> and no email is provided
<verb3k> Is anyone willing to help update a very, very outdated package in Lucid? libfribidi
<verb3k> the ubuntu repo version is 0.10. Fedora has already updated to 0.19.2 without any issues
<ari-tczew> talk to Debian maintainer
<verb3k> There has been a bug report about it since 2008: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/fribidi/+bug/191241
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 191241 in fribidi "New upstream version 0.19.1" [Wishlist,Confirmed]
<verb3k> Do you refer me to a specific person?
<verb3k> ari-tczew, is it that ubuntu can't update a library if Debian doesn't?
<ari-tczew> ubuntu can update it, of course
<porthose> verb3k, from the debian bug report it appears that the debian maintainer is looking for some help with the package, maybe he would be willing to take you under his wing and show you the ropes
<ari-tczew> verb3k, there are maintainers: http://packages.debian.org/sid/libfribidi-dev
<ari-tczew> if you mean that I can help, you're wrong, I don't have time
<verb3k> I sure would like to do it myself, but I don't have the knowledge/experience to do so
<ari-tczew> it's good reason to learn
<verb3k> that's why I am asking for people's help
<verb3k> I can't even package a simple script, let alone a "main" library with dependencies and such, that wouldn't be possible for a layman
<verb3k> it has to be taken care of by a professional
<ari-tczew> we have a lot of information on wiki.ubuntu.com and there are manpages
<verb3k> how about contacting DH? maybe he can help
<ari-tczew> verb3k, are you mean about dholbach?
<verb3k> yes
<ari-tczew> dunno, ask him by e-mail
<verb3k> I think I'll do that
<verb3k> Man he's got like 10 emails :D which one should I mail
<ari-tczew> I think that on first field
<ari-tczew> However, I guess that dholbach has integrated all emails
<verb3k> thanks ari-tczew, hope he'll help
 * alkisg wonders why gimp is still in the lucid live iso (not that I'm complaining): http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-archive/germinate-output/ubuntu.lucid/desktop
<ari-tczew> alkisg, maybe therefore, that lucid is still development version, not finally
<ari-tczew> and developers have time
<alkisg> ari-tczew: erm, sure
<alkisg> I was wondering *technically* why it's still there
<alkisg> Not philosophically..
<alkisg> It was removed from the seeds, but it's still there in germinate output
<htrejh> hi
<htrejh> what's the best packaging technique if you want to make a PPA?
<Mez> ok, weirdest sound issue ever.
<Mez> My sound works perfectly, until I attach external media.
<aburch> htrejh: The same as for official packages?
<htrejh> i'm simply a dev and i want to make a deb of nightly builds
<htrejh> i can't remember what i used to make our current stable debs
<htrejh> but what should i use for a PPA?
<htrejh> do you understand what i mean?
<alkisg> htrejh: here's a good start for packaging: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/PackagingGuide
<vimpulse`> Mez:  odd.
<vimpulse`> hi all.  "Open Sonic is a free open-source game based on the 'Sonic the Hedgehog' universe." -- http://opensnc.sourceforge.net/home/index.php .  The latest version of the game is 0.1.2 and visually looks great.  But it's missing important features like saving your progress.  I'm thinking of filing a wnpp bug to get Debian to accept this into their repo.  But I'm worried that Ubuntu users might see this, not re
<vimpulse`> number (0.1.2) means, and install it.  Is this a reasonable worry, or not?  :)
<alkisg> htrejh: if you already have the debian directory, then you just need debuild -S -sa and dput
<htrejh> yes thanks, i used it, but there are several methods, which one is the best for making nightly builds?
<htrejh> ok thanks
<htrejh> vimpulse: seems to be a nice game xD wll try it :p
<Mez> vimpulse`: I know - though, just booted into an older kernel, and it works fine. So it looks like it's the kernel
<alkisg> vimpulse: is it supposed to have sound? It doesn't give any audio output for me...
<alkisg> (otherwise it's cool, though :))
<vimpuls`> sorry, I am having problems with my network adapter.  Did anyone answer me while I was gone?  :)
<vimpuls`> Shortened repeat:  The game "Open Sonic" is missing important features like saving your progress.  I'm thinking of filing a wnpp bug to get Debian to accept the game into their repo.  But I'm worried that Ubuntu users might see the game, not realize what its low version number (0.1.2) means, and install it.  Is this a reasonable worry, or not?  :)
<alkisg> vimpuls`: personally I don't think ubuntu users are worried about low version numbers.
<alkisg> vimpuls`: is it supposed to have sound? It doesn't give any audio output for me...
<vimpuls`> alkisg:  The game is supposed to have sound.  You installed the game?
<alkisg> vimpuls`: yes, from the ppa
<vimpuls`> alkisg:  What does "personally I don't think ubuntu users are worried about low version numbers" mean?
<vimpuls`> alkisg:  though the game's music is pretty bad.  I prefer to listen to some MP3s while I play.
<vimpuls`> alkisg:  The music will improve over time I'm sure.
<alkisg> I think that they won't pay attention to the low version number...
<vimpuls`> alkisg:  so they will install it not realizing that it can't save yet?
<htrejh> is there any example of a source of a package that builds from SVN?
<alkisg> vimpuls`: I think so, yes. So you might want to include a warning on first run. But of course that's just a personal opinion.
<vimpuls`> alkisg:  I think the game installs its music to a directory somewhere on your PC.  If you have the right player, maybe you can listen to it from there.
<alkisg> I just tried another allegro game, it also doesn't give any sound output, so it's probably something about my settings.. Never mind :)
<htrejh> anybody knows an example?
<htrejh> otherwise, how can you get a source package
<alkisg> apt-get source <package>
<htrejh> thanks
<htrejh> alkisg: can you get the src rpm of a ppa package too?
<alkisg> htrejh: source deb? Sure, if you got it in your sources...
<htrejh> hm
<htrejh> it downloads the one from the main ubuntu repo
<alkisg> Do you have the deb-src in your sources.list?
<htrejh> no
<alkisg> htrejh: you need something like this: deb-src http://ppa.launchpad.net/alkisg/ppa/ubuntu karmic main
<htrejh> ah ok
<htrejh> thanks
<aburch> htrejh: If you don't want to add something to sources.list, you can also use `dget'.
<htrejh> no is ok thx
<htrejh> can you use svn commands in your rules file to grab the svn version and compile it?
<aburch> htrejh: Technically yes, but if you do so during a regular build, it cannot be built after being uploaded to the PPA.
<htrejh> ow ok
<htrejh> so how do nightly builds work
<htrejh> i must make a tarball myself?
<htrejh> and use it instead of the stable tarball
<aburch> htrejh: If you host your own repository, you can do whatever you want.  Otherwise automate building the source package itself.
<htrejh> ok
<htrejh> thx
<htrejh> is there a standard for naming svn versions?
<aburch> htrejh: Use a version number larger than the last offlicial release, but lower than the next official release.
<htrejh> ok
<aburch> htrejh: Something like 1.2+svn456-1 is a safe choice (with 1.2 being the last release, 456 the svn revision).
<htrejh> ok that's what i wanted to know, perfect :D
<aburch> htrejh: Some people also use the date instead of the revision number (esp. with other VCS like Git).
<htrejh> yep
<htrejh> is not good imo
<vimpuls`> alkisg:  Thank you.  You inspired me to post http://opensnc.sourceforge.net/forum/viewtopic.php?pid=832 ("Suggestion: Tell users they can 'save' using their OS's hibernate mode").  I gave you credit by your full name in the post.
<alkisg> vimpuls`: thanks, no need for credits though... :)
<vimpuls`> alkisg:  you're welcome.  oh well -- already done :)
<alkisg> vimpuls`: also, it the post it looks like I said all those things about what the game should show and when - while I didn't... They're your thoughts, so better tell that in the post.
<vimpuls`> alkisg:  good point.  brb phone
<vimpuls`> alkisg:  I've now edited the post to clarify that.
<alkisg> ok, ty
<vimpuls`> alkisg:  you're welcome.
<vimpuls`> alkisg:  also, thank you for inspiring me with your first-run warning idea.  :)
<directhex> kenvandine, poke poke
<Drakeson> for some reason libnotify bubbles are really ugly (there are orange lines and a green area on the black notification bubbles). is this expected for now?
<ion> Itâs debugging information for the development version of the distro. It will be turned off for the release version.
<kees> uhm, did apt regress?  I can't fetch source by version number.
<kees> ah-ha http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=561971
<ubottu> Debian bug 561971 in apt ""apt-get source" always downloads default version" [Normal,Open]
<Philantrop> I'd like to look into upstart's configuration. AFAIK, native upstart configs have replaced the traditional System-V init scripts since 9.10 or so. The initscripts package (from lucid) seems to contain plain old sysv scripts only, though. Where would I find the native configuration? I'm interested in a real-world implementation for possible upstart adoption in another distribution. Would there be a package to look at for such an
<Philantrop> example?
<geser> look at the files in /etc/init/ (note the missing .d)
<Philantrop> geser: The scripts therein are provided by individual packages, I presume? And the initscripts package simply hasn't yet been ported to native upstart?
<geser> Yes, the upstart jobs are installed by individual packages. Don't know the status of initscripts.
<Philantrop> geser: Ok, thanks. I guess I'll idle here for a while, hoping someone else might know about the initscripts package's status. :-)
<ebroder> Philantrop: Packages that have been converted to Upstart are done one-by-one, and since Debian hasn't switched to Upstart, they're done on the ubuntu side
<Philantrop> ebroder: Oh, I see. I apologise for my ignorance in these matters but I'm not acquainted with either Debian or Ubuntu, I'm afraid.
<ebroder> Looking at what the startup scripts in initscripts do, I'd suspect that most of those have been replaced either by functionality in Upstart itself or just separate scripts
<geser> Philantrop: you might have better chances to get answers next week when all the devs are back from their vacation
<Philantrop> geser: Now, Ubuntu's sponsoring their devs a vacation? I'm doing something wrong, it seems! ;-)
<ebroder> For example, I don't know for sure, but if I had to guess, the mountall package handles what /etc/init.d/umount* did in initscripts
<geser> Philantrop: hopefully a s/vacation/holidays/ makes it better (English is not my native language so I sometimes still make errors)
<ebroder> geser: Depends on which side of the pond you're on :)
<Philantrop> ebroder: I'm going to install Ubuntu in a VM and will try figuring things out from there for now, I guess.
<Drakeson> ion: well, it checks the env var "DEBUG" and if it is present, notify-osd goes annoying. I am wondering how that env var is set.
<emma> unquery
<sebner> geser: I need a sponsored vacation too :P
<cyphermox> sponsored?
<sebner> cyphermox: sure, I'm a poor student :P
<cyphermox> sebner: ah, I see. forgot about the students situation ;)
<sebner> heh
<joshua___> anyway to set package state to "not installed but treat as installed for dependency checking" e.g. usplash
<geser> why?
<joshua___> I have a system that will not boot if usplash is installed but removing ubuntu-desktop to get rid of it is dumb
<geser> you could perhaps build with equivs a fake package but you're then on you own
<maxb> I wish ubuntu-desktop didn't hard-depend on so many things. Is there a reason it doesn't simply recommend everything?
<joshua___> another one was the development tools installed a bunch of junk but I just took to doing apt-get build-dep gcc instead
<geser> maxb: so in extreme you could have ubuntu-desktop installed but no of its packages?
<joshua___> so what happens if I edit the control file and say I have version 99.999.999 of usplash installed when it's not?
<ebroder> ...you set yourself up to get screwed hard later?
<joshua___> ebrder: I'm screwed hard if it's ever really installed
<ion> Remove âsplashâ from the kernel command line, or see equivs.
<ebroder> Use equivs
<maxb> Well, I suppose so. Really I care about not having choices such as notify-osd compelled upon me by a core metapackage
<joshua___> hmmm I'm really tempted to make an apt-get poison <package> to make sure a package's status will not change no matter what deps say
<joshua___> the only reason I haven't switched back to sysvinit is I could not figure what sequence of commands is necessary for X to find its input devices these days
<joshua___> at least equivs did manage to convince apt that usplash was not to be installed
<MenZa> I've proposed an idea I know the DesignTeam has been working on as well -- an Ubuntu-themed GRUB2 theme. I've received a lot of positive comments about this, and would like to kickstart some serious discussions about this -- should I submit this to -devel-discuss@lists?
<MenZa> I'm concerned with the readiness of GRUB2 (having read some of the docs, it seems like it has a lot of limitations, still), and possibly investigate the idea of working with grub upstream to get something worth including in Lucid+1
<RAOF> MenZa: That wouldn't be a bad idea.  However, I've had a look at it and I think it's substantially more difficult to implement than you might think.
<MenZa> RAOF: Basically, what I suggested (http://blog.lassehavelund.com/2010/grub-a-usability-hurdle-pt-2) isn't possible with the current limitations of GRUB2, but I know directhex has made a workable implementation, which is /something/
<RAOF> Oh, he has?  Wow.  That was fast.
<MenZa> something which, theoretically, could be in for Lucid, provided we get it done in a month and a half
<MenZa> RAOF: Indeed.
<MenZa> http://i.imgur.com/rL86m.png <- RAOF
<MenZa> So it's possible to create /something/ at least; although it can't be as flashy as the original implementation I was rooting for. That said, this is certainly a start.
<RAOF> Aah, OK.  Yeah, I knew _that_ sort of thing was possible.
<MenZa> As is grouping by OS
<beuno> MenZa, I'd encourage you to bring it up on the ayatana list as well
<MenZa> http://grub.gibibit.com/Themes <- see
<RAOF> Give it a propose; it might conflict with the fast-boot goals, though.
<MenZa> beuno: ayatana?
<beuno> MenZa, https://edge.launchpad.net/ayatana
<MenZa> Ah, right
<beuno> MenZa, https://edge.launchpad.net/ayatana
<beuno> is the ml
<ion> Speaking of grub, it would be nice if 30_os-prober was moved *before* 20_memtest86+ in /etc/grub.d, and also if only the first entry from 10_linux was added to the top and the rest, say, between the potential Windows entry and the memtest86+ entry. I probably should file a wishlish bug or something.
 * MenZa still cannot get used to LP having mailing lists
<MenZa> So you suggest a blueprint, beuno?
 * MenZa sees no mailing lists.
<beuno> MenZa, I
<beuno> I'd suggest birning up the mockups for discussion on the list
<beuno> the ml is on the team page
<beuno> https://edge.launchpad.net/~ayatana
<MenZa> ah, right
<beuno> yes, we will fix mailing lists in Launchpad
<beuno> I have a plan for this year  :)
<MenZa> \o/
<MenZa> right, beuno -- subscribed to the mailing list. I'll send out an e-mail describing my ideas and a proposal for discussion later tonight
<MenZa> cheers
<beuno> MenZa, thanks
<directhex> as discussed on #grub though, changes are needed to grub itself
<directhex> but i suspect canonical has people who are more likely to do C than me
<MenZa> directhex: not if we are to remain with a design similar to the one you mocked up, but I don't see why upstream development should necessarily be a problem :)
<MenZa> (again, great job on the PoC you did)
<directhex> MenZa, it's not perfect. i should gzip it at some point.
<directhex> oh, and post instructions, since it's non-obvious
<MenZa> aye
<MenZa> directhex: feel free to join in on the ayatana@lists.launchpad.net thread I'm just sending off
<directhex> it's actually pretty fast, which impresses me
<MenZa> yeah?
<MenZa> well, that's good
<directhex> 256k. it'll bounce from the ML. i'll mail it to you direct, you can decide what to do with it.
<MenZa> stash it on people.ubuntu.com?
<MenZa> if it complies with the 'free' policy, that is
<directhex> i don't think i've ever used people.ubuntu.com. i should look into it
<MenZa> have an ssh key, connect to people.ubuntu.com, you're dropped in your own dir.
<MenZa> simple.
<MenZa> (ssh key must be registered on lp)
<MenZa> do it straight from nautilus, or sftp> :p
#ubuntu-devel 2015-12-28
<ljp> well... at least it's not ad spam
<cjwatson> mitya57: no need to do manual uploads for s390x bootstrapping - please ask me or Adam Conrad, we can inject staged builds as build-deps
<cjwatson> mitya57: (though thanks for the bootstrapping effort!)
<mitya57> cjwatson: No problems. Btw are you able to retry autopkgtests by chance?
<mitya57> (what I need is http://autopkgtest.ubuntu.com/packages/t/tracker/xenial/i386/ which is clearly a random failure)
<mitya57> cjwatson: Also, what exactly did you mean by "staged builds"? In this tracker/nautilus case there was a circular b-d which I broke by building a nautilus without tracker in a silo, then building tracker against that and copying the binaries.
<mitya57> Should I have just pinged you with a link to nautilus silo in this case?
<cjwatson> mitya57: Looks like somebody's done the tracker test, but yes, I can do it
<mitya57> Yes, I just received the mails about the migration. \o/
<cjwatson> mitya57: What we normally do is inject build-dependencies into a bootstrap archive used by LP builds; would've saved the trouble of the tracker upload.  No big deal in this case but it leaves a bit less in the way of debris in the archive
<mitya57> Ok, next time I'll know that. Thanks!
<mitya57> And btw I committed a fix to the Debian svn for nautilus to build without tracker support on stage1, which should make next bootstrappings easier.
<cjwatson> mitya57: Right, we don't currently make use of that automatically, but it's definitely a valuable hint to humans doing the work and it typically speeds things up.
#ubuntu-devel 2015-12-29
<ondrej> rbasak: FYI I found a bootstrapping loop in some PEAR packages (f.e. phpunit), so the way out was to prepare dummy transitional packages from php5-* to php-\1; so, when you asked what needs to be done -> if you/we think there should be automatic conversion of old php5* configuration and module state, that's something I haven't touch yet, and I am slightly inclined to skip the automatic conversion on u
<ondrej> pgrade
<ondrej> rbasak: also is there a way how to bump single PPA size (ppa:ondrej/php), where I debug the PHP packaging?
<hjd> ondrej: Regarding PPA size. If you add a request on https://answers.launchpad.net/launchpad, it's usually straight-forward and fast response. :)
<rbasak> ondrej: I think automatic conversion can be problematic. If there's any chance of maintainer script failure, I'd prefer to not do it, unless there's also a way to make sure that maintainer scripts handle failure gracefully (without a non-zero exit status).
<rbasak> ondrej: what hjd said for Launchpad is correct. It seems a bit odd but https://answers.launchpad.net/launchpad is the right place for that sort of request and they're usually quite quick. You clearly have a genuine need that I'm sure Canonical will want to support so extra PPA size shouldn't be a problem.
<ondrej> rbasak: cool, I also don't want to have automatic conversions, so I am glad we are on the same page.
<ondrej> rbasak, hjd: thanks, I submitted the question
#ubuntu-devel 2015-12-30
<tsimonq2> is anyone else not able to access wiki.ubuntu.com?
<tsimonq2> weird
<tsimonq2> in Incognito it works
<tsimonq2> I just had to clear Cached images and files
<ancaemanuel> Hi, can someone look at http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-archive/proposed-migration/update_excuses.html#apt ?
<ancaemanuel> https://juliank.wordpress.com/2015/12/30/apt-1-1-8-to-1-1-10-going-faster
<ancaemanuel> retry test on autopkgtest on amd64: "ERROR: testbed failure" https://objectstorage.prodstack4-5.canonical.com/v1/AUTH_77e2ada1e7a84929a74ba3b87153c0ac/autopkgtest-xenial/xenial/amd64/a/autopkgtest/20151230_061330@/log.gz
<ogra_> ancaemanuel, canonical shuts down from before christmas to new year every year ... will be a matter of luck to find someone willing to work on that during the holidays
<juliank> Oh no, autopkgtest seems to have a regression. This seems to be blocking apt 1.1.10 from migrating to release.
<juliank> It does not seem to be caused by the APT upload, though
<cjwatson> ancaemanuel,juliank: retried
<cjwatson> ancaemanuel: by the way, regarding your suggestion from the other day, most of our builders already automatically boot from fresh images for every build.  when you see a load of them disabled, that's typically because the automation infrastructure has failed in some way.  (fortunately it's usually transient ...)
<cjwatson> ancaemanuel: https://insights.ubuntu.com/2014/10/30/scalingstack-2x-performance-in-launchpads-build-farm-with-openstack/ roughly describes the current setup
<juliank> cjwatson: Thanks, that seems to have worked, apt is now migrating.
<cjwatson> juliank: ah good
<ancaemanuel> thanks, tested apt 1.1.10. More speed :)
<cjwatson> Right, I think now would be a decent time for a mass give-back
<cjwatson> There, that'll give the builders something to chew on today
<jack098> hi
<jack098> hello what you all discuss here
<ricotz> cjwatson, hi, there is a newer "autoconf-archive" maybe you could push this to debian and sync it back https://launchpad.net/~ricotz/+archive/ubuntu/staging/+sourcepub/5781882/+listing-archive-extra
<cjwatson> ricotz: um, I'm not the autoconf-archive maintainer
<cjwatson> ricotz: so no, ask somebody else :-)
<ricotz> cjwatson, alright ;)
<bluefoxxx> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Lubuntu/Documentation/RemoveOldKernels this giving an ISE for anyone else?
<teward> bluefoxxx: by ISE i assume you mean a 500 error?
<teward> ooop yes confirmed, internal serv. error
<bluefoxxx> k
<bluefoxxx> 23.04 Ubuntu Libidinous Lagomorph?
<bluefoxxx> Ian Murdock is dead?
<Unit193> Yes, https://bits.debian.org/2015/12/mourning-ian-murdock.html
<bluefoxxx> no information on how he died
<teward> bluefoxxx: might be being kept secret for now at the family's request?
<maswan> I stopped speculating after the family called for privacy, but it seems like lots of parts of the internet is going at that
<maswan> which is kind of sad, so I think I'm going to head off and call it a night
<bluefoxxx> does privacy mean sabdfl won't be arriving at the funeral in a flying tesla to give his respects?
<bluefoxxx> o.o oh.  Shit.  That was unexpected.
<bluefoxxx> Well I have nothing to say about this.
<hzut> hi
<hzut> please
<hzut> each clic on middle button copy twice instead of one!
<hzut> i installed ubuntu on my mac - what is the best thing to do with keyboard and trackpad?
<dobey> #ubuntu is the help channel
#ubuntu-devel 2015-12-31
<LocutusOfBorg1> I wish you a nice new year!
<teward> stupid question, but is there a way to refer to the version string used in the Debian changelog during building in a rules file?  (such that a variable could extract the value of whatever the version string was on the changelog entry)
<tumbleweed> teward: dpkg-parsechangelog
<teward> tumbleweed: thank you!
<teward> tumbleweed: is that able to be used during the actual building of the binaries in the rules file to extract the version for use in a later flag passed to 'go' for building?  From what testing I'm doing, I'm seeing nothing in that variable (I have the rules file echoing the output to the log during build, and it's showing nothign...(
<tumbleweed> teward: it's a command, not a variable
<teward> tumbleweed: i know this
<teward> tumbleweed: trying to put it INTO a variable
<teward> getting no output
<tumbleweed> if you're in a source package, it should have output
<teward> I.E. in makefile: export PACKAGE_VER_STRING=$(dpkg-parsechangelog --show-field Version)
<teward> that to then later be referred to in arguments when the actual building of the binaries happens in sbuild
<tumbleweed> --show-field is fairly recent. Is it available in the relase that you're building on?
<tumbleweed> we used to have to pipe dpkg-parsechangelog to sed
<teward> tumbleweed: building in both Debian stable (jessie) and Wily, both in sbuild schroots
<teward> so it *should* be available in there?
<tumbleweed> anything since dpkg 1.17.0
<tumbleweed> according to the manpage
<teward> yeah that's what I read too, for some reason it just does *not* want to do what i want it to :/
 * teward tests something
<teward> tumbleweed: only thing I can think of is that when we get to the dh_auto_install step which is overridden in the rules, it's no longer able to use dpkg-parsechangelog
<teward> but I can't for the love of me figure out why
<teward> going into the schroot, it *LOOKS* like it would work, but it's just not getting output how it should and providing it later on (i.e. empty string)
<teward> which breaks things :/
<tumbleweed> teward: show me your rules file
<teward> tumbleweed: http://paste.ubuntu.com/14340616/
<teward> oops
<teward> wait
<teward> that's the older one with git lol
<tumbleweed> I can tell you what your problem there is :P
<tumbleweed> each line of a rule gets executed in a seprate subshell
<tumbleweed> if you want to export a variable for every subshell, you mustn't do it from a rule
<teward> tumbleweed: so it should go out where GOPATH is defined, then?
<teward> (in your mind replace that `git describe` line with the dpkg-parsechangelog stuff, i'm too lazy to repaste xD)
<tumbleweed> yep
<tumbleweed> and you probably don't need to export it - you can use a make variable, rather than a shell variable, for this
<teward> will that get picked up later with variable substitution when it passes it to go in the flags?
<tumbleweed> if you use the make syntax $(VARIABLE_NAME)
<teward> tumbleweed: no dice :/
<teward> no idea why it's still failing :?
<teward> and I have an Echo line to echo what's there too, which is how I know it's failing
<teward> about fed up with it right now and am just gonna hardcode the damn thing for now into place >.<
<teward> THEN tackle variable sub
<cjwatson> if you're setting it as a make variable, remember to use $(shell ...) not $(...)
<teward> tumbleweed: cjwatson: I owe you both a beer/drink!
<teward> tumbleweed: thank you for the guidance on where to get the string set
<teward> cjwatson: thanks for reminding me about needing 'shell' there
<teward> it's now behaving as it needs to :)
<tumbleweed> excellent :)
#ubuntu-devel 2016-01-01
<psusi> well, happy new year's everyone!  after a two day stint in the hospital having our second child a week ahead of schedule, it is good to be home in time for new years.
<sladen> psusi: recover + enjoy!
<psusi> sladen, thanks, working on it ;)
<Jusii> Hi, I'm a bit lost bisecting ubuntu linux kernel, I can't find linear tags between version I'd need to bisect between. My last post here https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux/+bug/1529353
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1529353 in linux (Ubuntu) "NUC NUC5CPYH Does not boot on Ubuntu 15.10 (4.2.0-22-generic) most of the time" [Medium,Incomplete]
<Jusii> Can't do bisecting in mainline as this seems to be Ubuntu specific.
<Jusii> I'd need to do the bisecting between 3.18.x and 3.19.x
<dasjoe> cjwatson: re: grub2 + ZFS. I don't know how to help, so I've opened a bug on LP, too: https://bugs.launchpad.net/debian/+source/grub2/+bug/1530457 :)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1530457 in grub2 (Ubuntu) "grub2: cherry-pick support for ZFS pool feature flags, bugfixes" [Undecided,New]
<cjwatson> dasjoe: huh, did you miss my advice on how to send information to the Debian bug?
<cjwatson> dasjoe: it was a simple email address
<cjwatson> dasjoe: oh, you did, I see it now.  there was no need to open an LP bug, it's just one more thing to track, but meh :)
<dasjoe> cjwatson: I sent the same info to the Debian bug. Oh well :)
<cjwatson> dasjoe: I just haven't had significant time to deal with it over the holidays, that's all.
<dasjoe> cjwatson: right, I just wanted to make sure it doesn't end up in Debian only. Now that I think about it that's quite silly
<cjwatson> dasjoe: not silly in general, although in this case we keep Debian and Ubuntu grub2 pretty tightly in sync
#ubuntu-devel 2016-01-02
<jvansciver> happy new year
<ondrej_> a quick C question: I need to patch something to resolver UID/GID at runtime; could I optimize the function by doing: getuid(const char *) { static uid_t u = -1; if (u == -1) { getpwnam_jumbo... u = pw.pw_uid; } return u; }
<ondrej> wrong channel (wanted #debian-devel), feel free to answer anyway :)
<rbasak> ondrej: seems reasonable to me assuming a single thread and that it's OK to assume that underlying changes won't be reflected. But why do you need the optimisation? If NIS is slow, then surely the sysadmin would arrange a caching NIS mechanism further down the stack?
<rbasak> Uh, s/NIS/NSS/
<ondrej> rbasak: because I call it with same uname/gname every time
<rbasak> ondrej: I don't think that's reasonable in itself. Premature optimization and all that.
<rbasak> I mean I don't think that's a reason in itself.
<rbasak> I'm not sure why I used the word reasonable. I'm not being particularly coherent right now, sorry.
<ondrej> rbasak: you might be right; I'll optimize only if somebody bitches
<tomasq> I would like to ask if Ubuntu developers are Canonical employees?
<tomasq> or most are community developers?
<tsimonq2> tomasq: some are Canonical, some aren't
<tsimonq2> tomasq: it's really on a developer-by-developer basis
<tsimonq2> tomasq: but I have enountered more community developers then Canonical folks
<tomasq> ah, thanks!
<tomasq> I am very interested in Ubuntu Desktop plans and roadmap. How Mark want to make it more popular?
<tsimonq2> tomasq: what do you mean by that?
<tsimonq2> tomasq: do you want to look into Unity development?
<tsimonq2> (Uniy is the DE for Ubuntu)
<tsimonq2> *Unity
<tomasq> I am just interested in the future of Ubuntu. Who decides what is the priority, what should be developed, etc.
<tsimonq2> tomasq: from an observational perspective or would you like to participate?
<tomasq> It looks for me, that direction they have choosen is little bit wrong and now they are trying to do everything and developing force is not so strong now.
<tsimonq2> tomasq: look at this for the structure of the Ubuntu connunity: http://community.ubuntu.com/community-structure/governance/
<tomasq> Thank you very much
<tsimonq2> tomasq: this will give you a lot of good information, this is where I got the governance page from: community.ubuntu.com
<tsimonq2> tomasq: so would you like to contribute to Ubuntu?
<tomasq> well, I am software developer and hardware engineer, but I am seeing areas that should be improved. It would be great to contribute and especially fix some bugs. I am participating in translations for long time, but fixing bugs is more important I guess.
<tsimonq2> tomasq: all of it plays parts
<tsimonq2> :)
<tsimonq2> where would you like to fix bugs?
<tomasq> the problem is, that there are too many changes in each release
<tsimonq2> tomasq: if you want slower changes, use LTS :)
<tomasq> My wish is to put gnome 2 times back :D
<tsimonq2> tomasq: Ubutnu MATE = Ubuntu with GNOME 2
<tsimonq2> *Ubuntu
<tomasq> Yes, but they are not stable enough too :(
<tsimonq2> actually it is very stable
<tsimonq2> tomasq: it's modern, fast, and seems to be user-friendly
<tsimonq2> tomasq: join #ubuntu-mate for more details
<tomasq> There are system apps that are crashing, graphical glitches with some drivers, problems with pulseaudio with 7.1 sound, old apps. Generally it is good, but if you are user that can't accept single issue, it is big problem.
<tomasq> I know Ubuntu and Mate very well.
<tsimonq2> well then file bug reports :)
<tomasq> I am filling, but nothing is changing for years :(
<tsimonq2> tomasq: talk to people in #ubuntu-mate
<tomasq> And this is what I want to change.
<tsimonq2> well it isn't easy
<tomasq> I know.
<tsimonq2> tomasq: so do you want to fix bugs? or what do you want to do to change this?
<tsimonq2> tomasq: http://packaging.ubuntu.com/html/ is the packaging guide
<tomasq> Yes, but they are in very different areas and packages.
<tsimonq2> tomasq: well pick one and contribute
<tsimonq2> tomasq: unless you want to fix a lot of them
<tomasq> What I would like to see is to stop development of all the fancy stuff and make it rock solid.
<tomasq> For example Mir development.
<tsimonq2> tomasq: well quite frankly that isn't gonna happen
<tsimonq2> tomasq: if you see something wrong, report it and/or fix it
<mitya57> tomasq, re Canonical vs non-Canonical: http://people.ubuntuwire.org/~stefanor/ubuntu-activity/#affiliation
<tomasq> I know, but all these things will contribute to the end of Ubuntu or at least strong transition to other distros. I love Ubuntu so I am worried. I know my words are strong, but you will see in 5 years. Ubuntu has potential to change the world.
<tsimonq2> tomasq: I am afraid you are wrong :)
<tsimonq2> tomasq: Ubutnu is stable
<tsimonq2> tomasq: Ubuntu has features
<tsimonq2> *Ubuntu
<tsimonq2> tomasq: if you see something specific, fix it
<tumbleweed> mitya57: take those stats with a pinch of salt - I wouldn't trust them
<tsimonq2> tomasq: but that is how you are going to make an impact
<tomasq> I am using Ubuntu from the beginning, I know its state very well. And everybody around me is using it as well.
<tsimonq2> tomasq: It's not going anywhere
<mitya57> tumbleweed, but it should give the rough picture :)
<tsimonq2> it's getting better and better, but it isn't going away
<tumbleweed> I think I curated that list by hand, and haven't touched it since
<tomasq> I would be very glad if my words are false.
<mitya57> tumbleweed, ok, will know that
<tomasq> My guess is that Unity and Mac-ification were the first bad steps. It took way too long to get into really usable state.
<tsimonq2> tomasq: well then focus on specific items
<tsimonq2> stop being too broad :)
<tomasq> I am not conservative user, but in our company we are using Linux on desktops, so I can see what could happen if you are using it 16h each day.
<tomasq> Linux is super stable without any doubt.
<tomasq> For example Mate, it is fork of Gnome 2. But it is not that stable and useable as Gnome 2. It is very strange, but it is true.
<tomasq> There are newly introduced bugs that were not present with Gnome 2
<tomasq> but this is not fault of Ubuntu
<mitya57> tomasq, did you try GNOME Flashback?
<tomasq> yes
<tomasq> You have to add many addons to make it at least partially usable as gnome 2
<mitya57> The default Ubuntu settings are having exactly the same set of applets as old Ubuntus (â¤ 11.04) had by default.
<tomasq> For example desktop shortcuts, menu editation, panel settings, nothing is present
<mitya57> You have all of that :) Desktop shortcuts are configured from the System Settings, menu editor is alacarte, panel settings are there (use Alt + right click on panel).
<tomasq> I know all possibilities of Unity, but you know that it is not so configurable as old gnome 2. Same with gnome 3.
<mitya57> I was speaking about gnome-flashback, not Unity. But the first two points apply to Unity too.
<tomasq> for example I dont understand, why Ubuntu in older version had nice bootsplash even with proprietary drivers. Why there are just 4 ASCII dots now? I know it is not a bug, but it is not improvement. Also there are strange text outputs at the end that shouldn't really be there.
<tomasq> These small things can really irritate users even that it does not present any real problem.
<dobey> ...
<dobey> for one, dealing with UEFI systems made things much more difficult
<dobey> for two, it's not "macification"
<dobey> and if you don't like unity, there are plenty of other environments you can use
<tarpman> tomasq: because the proprietary drivers don't support KMS. but the proprietary driver developers are to blame for that, not Ubuntu
<tomasq> dobey: I have used unity for at least 2 years.
<tomasq> I know, but there is always solution. Why it worked previously?
<dobey> i don't understand what you say isn't working
<dobey> the boot splash does work
<tomasq> yes, but only with opensource drivers.
<dobey> it worked for me on nvidia two weeks ago when i had an nvidia card, before i returned it to amazon because so many other nvidia things don't work
<tomasq> thats interesting.
<dobey> and well, if you have problems with proprietary drivers, you can hardly blame ubuntu for the proprietary things causing problems
<tomasq> nono, proprietary drivers are working perfectly for me
<dobey> http://moebuntu.web.fc2.com/img/plymouth/plymouth_default1.png is the text mode boot splash
<dobey> http://ubuntuhandbook.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/ubuntu-boot-flash-screen.jpg is the graphical boot splash
<tomasq> yes
<tomasq> just start ubuntu in virtualbox, why there was bootsplash with older versions?
<tomasq> and now there is not
<tomasq> But of course this is not a problem for me, it is just example.
<dobey> i don't have any vms set up, so i can't do that
<dobey> but i don't know what you're complaining about exaclty
<dobey> afaik, the problem is that you didn't install the guest bits
<tomasq> about similar small things, that nobody want to solve.
<dobey> it's a poor examples
<tomasq> dobey: yes, you are right. But previously it worked without any guest additions
<dobey> afaik it did not
<tarpman> virtualbox+plymouth â https://www.virtualbox.org/ticket/14503 most likely
<tomasq> previously = few releases back.
<dobey> but, it's software. software occasionally has bugs. vague comments like "this used to work and no longer works" aren't helpful. if you want a problem solve, either solve it yourself, or at least be willing to gather enough useful information about the specific problem into a specific bug report about it
<tomasq> dobey: I am reporting all bugs that I am encountering.
<tomasq> but as I said previously, developers are focusing on the new features even that they are not necessary instead of fixing bugs. I understand it but I hope that it could change.
<dobey> no, developers are focusing on either what they are assigned to focus on (if they are doing the work for employement/contrac), or what they want to work on (if they are doing it as community hobbyist development)
<dobey> bugs are fixed daily
<dobey> just because they are not your pet bugs, doesn't mean bugs aren't getting fixed
<tomasq> I know that was the reason why I asked for plans and who is controlling it.
<tomasq> and I know everybody is doing 100% what he can.
<dobey> plans for what?
<tomasq> plans for success in the desktop field.
<dobey> the cloud/server developers have some different plans than the phone or desktop developers, and they have different plans than partners
<dobey> ubuntu's success will continue to succeed
<tomasq> with more projects developer force can't be so strong
<dobey> all of the software available in ubuntu is not developed by employees of canonical
<tomasq> I know.
<tomasq> But there are projects like Ubuntu Phone that, if you think realistically, can't be profitable.
<dobey> then why do you keep making vague accusatory statements?
<dobey> how do you know it can't be profitable?
<dobey> you've already implemented such platform to its full potential and lost your family's fortune on such a gamble?
<tomasq> You can see microsoft with windows phone
<tomasq> they have spent incredible money to move it somewhere
<dobey> so?
<dobey> microsoft making poor business decisions means that somehow ubuntu on phones is doomed to be complete failure too?
<tomasq> no
<tomasq> But you need reallistic view on the situation. If something will not drastically change with Ubuntu Phones, people will not buy it similarly as Android devices. It needs so much money for marketing.
<dobey> your view is no more realistic than anyone elses
<tomasq> From my point of view projects like this are only wasting of money.
<tomasq> Altough I wish them success.
<dobey> are you a cell phone manufacturer?
<tomasq> no, we are manufacturing other devices.
<dobey> sigh, my workstation locked up again. bloody graphics drivers
<tomasq> I am Ubuntu user that wish bigger success in desktop field.
<dobey> i just want working 4k@60Hz on intel and working low latency/rt kernel
<dobey> do you even have a clear definition of what "success" means there?
<tomasq> yes, using it in each school and government institutions, promoting it over proprietary software, possibility for buying it preinstalled with computers in each shop
<dobey> so then ubuntu is successful.
<tomasq> If this is true, then global marketshare could be at least 10%
<dobey> ubuntu is used in many schools, by many governments and their agencies, and plenty of people promote it ove rproprietary software. and there's this: http://blog.canonical.com/2013/10/01/ubuntu-pre-installed-and-in-retail-worldwide/
<dobey> and that blog post is 2 years old
 * lpotter is excited to start working again
<tomasq> dobey: it is unfortunately absolutely not enough.
<tomasq> By the way, download Ubuntu 6.06 and try it in VirtualBox
<tomasq> Then download latest Ubuntu and check bootsplash
<tomasq> You will see, that 6.06 has nicely working bootsplash
<tomasq> Then you can compare overall speed
<tomasq> With 6.06 any click mean immediate action
<dobey> 6.06 was 10 years ago
<dobey> you might as well say "look at how fast windows 95 is in virtual box, compared to windows 10"
<Unit193> I was going to say XP, as it's more accurate.
<dobey> ?
<dobey> i guess
<lpotter> I was going to say DOS boots instantly :)
<dobey> but still
<dobey> unity requires 3d accel, and to have that working properly requires installing the guest addons
<tomasq> yes, you are right. But even after installing guest addons it is not comparable.
<dobey> Unit193: or i guess vista, since it came out in 06 iirc
<maswan> And if you want a lightweight virtualized desktop ubuntu for, say, a remote graphical session thingie, you might be better off choosing a different option for ubuntu desktop
<Unit193> OK, lets cheat a little, since that was on GNOME 2, lets say try booting MATE.  You still have so much more driver support and updated security or otherwise...
<tomasq> You can compare Ubuntu Mate with 6.06
<tomasq> Still, 6.06 is extremely fast in comparison with Mate
<dobey> "fast"
<tomasq> how is it possible?
<Unit193> From years ago, with security holes up the wazoo, and kernel/driver support hardly existing.
<tomasq> security holes are not making it faster.
<Unit193> No, but recommending you not use it.
<dobey> do you have specific complaints that are relevant to this channel, or just more vague "i think x is faster than y" stuff for which you don't have a reasonable objective measurement?
<maswan> Now, if you could make a good regression test suite for desktop fastlyness, that'd be awesome
<dobey> maswan: too hardware-dependent
<tomasq> I just want to show you current development state.
<maswan> dobey: Yeah, probably. But then, so is boot speed, and that was greatly improved thanks to serious effort
<tomasq> But it is not only Ubuntu. PulseAudio, SystemD and similar stuff, road to hell.
<dobey> tomasq: given that i've been sitting in this channel for years, i have a pretty good idea what the current development state is
<maswan> Personally, the only bit with noticable latency in my desktop is the web browser, and that is not comparable to one from 06
<dobey> maswan: eh, i just watched a 4k video on youtube in the html5 player in firefox, without any issue
<tomasq> dobey: I understand, I just want to express my feelings, because Ubuntu could be better.
<dobey> tomasq: can you objectively define "better" in a meaningful way?
<dobey> your anger against pulseaudio and systemd have nothing to do with what is "better"
<tomasq> dobey: bug-free for daily usage with faster response
<dobey> can you define "daily usage" and "faster response" ?
<dobey> and it's quicker, not faster :)
<tomasq> dobey: yes, that you are working and using it each day. For example sometimes you can see random crash and report immediately after bootup. Sometimes system will not halt for 2 minutes, because it is wating for unknown process :)
<dobey> no i don't
<dobey> that is to say, i don't commonly see such random crashes immediately after boot, nor do i see system not halting for 2 minutes
<tomasq> it does not mean that others have same experience
<dobey> that is exactly my point
<tomasq> dobey: you can see many bug reports about it
<dobey> there are many bugs about many things
<tomasq> yes, this is wrong state that can't be managed if new and new features are added
<dobey> you are woefully wrong
<tomasq> of course, if something is rewritten from the base, old bugs will disappear and bunch of new occur
<tomasq> For example I dont understand, how Ubuntu want to be stable and fully usable with Mir, if proprietary drivers will be lacking and will never get same priority as major display server that everybody else will be using. There will be so many incompatibilities between Xorg apps that users can forget about outdated software. It will bring another abstract layers and slow downs and many, many new bugs. And what are real benefits for real users that w
<dobey> you're right, you don't understand
<tomasq> I am developer, I really understand.
<tomasq> You will see the impact in the first release with Mir by default.
<tomasq> With fallback to Xorg there will be even more fun.
<dobey> mir is already used by default, and on systems that only have proprietary graphics drivers
<dobey> there is no xorg on the phone images
<tomasq> I am talking about Ubuntu desktop
<tomasq> More possibilities and variations = more issues
<dobey> you are making vague conjecture again
<dobey> is all you're doing
<tomasq> If you have company and you have employees and developing software or hardware, you must know that this is absolutely true.
<dobey> no, nothing you've said is absolutely true
<tomasq> You will see that anything that is in plan from approx. 2010 will fail if Mark will continue in it. From this time, there are new things that are working, but because of very strong competition, can't succeed.
<dobey> so you're just here to troll?
<tomasq> probably yes
<dobey> then please leave
<tomasq> OK, please remember my words.
<dobey> no need
<dobey> well, glad that's over with
 * Unit193 waves to dobey.
