#ubuntustudio-devel 2010-03-08
<persia> ScottL: In case anyone asks during nighttime on this side of the globe again, PA built against Jack is available, but qjackctl still disables PA on start.  There likely exists some way to untangle this, but I don't believe it's been done.
<TheMuso> persia: The optimal way is jack2 and dbus to/from pulseaudio. That way, pulse only suspends access to the device jack wants. Whether it then can allow pulse to sit on top of jack in the same communication, I don't know.
<crimsun> the pulse side isn't really up to snuff yet (Lennart posted about this a few months ago)
<crimsun> perhaps [to add a hack] we could check the default sink and source from pactl stat and act accordingly with pasuspender in qjackctl
<persia> I'm happy to wait for lucid+1 to sort this issue.
<crimsun> yeah, I'd much rather release-note it for lucid
<persia> I like the idea of using dbus properly, and we would benefit from more pulseaudio-jack testing before just turning it on for studio users.
<persia> To put it another way, I want it to be mature enough that I don't get a phone call from my mother before we turn it on :)
<TheMuso> As I said in my mail, I'll certainly help with this integration work.
<persia> Cool.  I read your mail as mostly stepping away from seed management, image build coordination, developer training, etc.  Was that roughly correct?
<TheMuso> persia: Yeah thats right
<TheMuso> Any work relating to the integration of studio's custom pieces like art, packages, etc.
<persia> Right.
 * persia can help out with advice and training, and with (some) package bugs, but isn't comfortable accepting the mantle of responsibility for image stability or quality.
<ScottL> persia and TheMuso, thanks for answering before I bugged you ;)
<TheMuso> Hopefully the team will work that out. I can't really recommend anyone for the position atm, and since you persia are involved so much elsewhere community wise, I'd rather not increase your workload anyway.
<persia> TheMuso: Yeah.  That's why I wouldn't accept the role :)
<ScottL> persia and TheMuso, the previous statement was about PA/JACK, I hadn't actually read below that yet
<ScottL> persia, you said that qjackctl disables PA, but PA is not disabled if I start JACK from the command line?
<persia> ScottL: Right.
<ScottL> persia, so if I run JACK from CLI, then how does PA/JACK negotiate devices?  JACK just not work in that case?
<persia> There's no autonegotiation.
<persia> To work around the lack of autonegotiation, the .desktop file for qjackctl calls pasuspender.
<persia> That's not an ideal solution, for lots of reasons, but it's sufficient to work for now.
<ScottL> what I meant to ask is what happens to the audio routing if I run JACK from the command line?  if PA is still running won't it bodger JACK attempts to route audio?
<ScottL> crimsun, i added your note about pulse audio to lucid's working release notes, please feel free to clarify what was put down - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/WorkingReleaseNotes#preview
<persia> ScottL: Depends on whether JACK and PA are trying to use the same device or not.
<jussi01> ScottL: re: plymouth themeing, I thought that maybe the ubuntu studio logo with radiating waves, like sound waves. ie. it starts a blue out line and fills blue outwards like a ripple in a pool of water or a sound wave eminating outwards
<jussi01> sort of signifying the audio thing...
<persia> jussi01: Easy to move a graphic.  Maybe not to easy to have graphics change.
<jussi01> persia: perhaps, Im just trying to think cool things, not really thinking practical here
<persia> heh :)
<jussi01> persia: also, you may want to set your nickserv password as the server password so it identifies you before joining channels. 
<jussi01> then we dont get the changing hosts spam
<ScottL> jussi01, I can look into that (re: plymouth theme with radiating waves)
<ScottL> but persia has suggested that we have everything ready before this Thursday so we can ask for a UIF exception
<ScottL> but if I can get the radiating waves to work at a later time we can always update the theme :) or use it on lucid+1
<persia> Thursday is Beta Freeze, so ideally we'd like to get the exception approved before then.
<ScottL> jussi01, also, I should be sending jdong an email today about the forum name change with dynamic description
<ScottL> persia, the theme works now on my end, perhaps a few people to test and we ask then?
<ScottL> i can tell them what to do for testing
<persia> ScottL: If it works for you, just file the exception request.
<persia> But first get the package ready, etc.
 * ScottL begins to feel a little unsteady
<ScottL> I'm not sure how to package this
<ScottL> is it like any other package?
<persia> Should be.
<persia> There may be a couple special bits, but those can be discovered by testing.
<ScottL> okay, tonight I'll start the packaging
 * ScottL off to work
<persia> Have a good day.
<ckontros> What happened? (or didn't) Why don't we have disks? http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/ubuntustudio/daily/current/
 * persia checks
<ckontros> And hi all. ;)
<persia> Very odd.  That's not a normal error : http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-archive/cd-build-logs/ubuntustudio/lucid/daily-20100308.log
 * persia gets more confused going through back logs
<ckontros> persia: Ok. I hope Luke (or someone) can sort it.
<persia> Possibly invalid template lucid-src-1.template seems most likely, but ...
<ckontros> Some issue with fonts? This looks odd.
<persia> I've just gone back a week, and we still have the same error (which I don't understand).
<ckontros> Odd
 * abogani waves
<ckontros> yo
 * ckontros goes to take the kids to school.
<ckontros> ScottL: re: Metacity button order. I got back home today, tried to sync the disks and found they haven't built in a week. So, that needs sorted. If I had to guess though, we still need to add that gconf key to our -settings package to revert the button order to "normal" behavior.
<ScottL_> ckontros: thanks for explaining although I fear I missed part of your and persia's conversation in transit to work (I'll read the missing parts when I get home of course)
<ScottL_> but anything you are willing to explain I would gladly learn in regards to this or any other manner
<ScottL_> s/manner/matter
<ckontros> ScottL_: The gconf setting is easy. The disk thing is beyond me Im afraid. We'll need Luke's help.
 * ckontros goes off for a job interview.
 * abogani waves
<abogani> For the tinkerers and testers: https://launchpad.net/~abogani/+archive/ppa
<abogani> Feedback are welcome! 
<ScottL_> abogani: I'm going to start testing -generic vs -whateverwehaveinppa this week, probably towards the end of this week
<abogani> ScottL_: Thanks a lot.
<ckontros> After 10 weeks, I am once again employed.
<abogani> ckontros: Yeah!
<ckontros> ;)
<ckontros> Now I can hopefully dig myself out of this hole and be ok again bu the summer.
<ckontros> s/bu/by
 * abogani hope that will be his turn soon
<ckontros> abogani: Anything hopeful? Do you have any interviews set up?
<abogani> ckontros: A sent a lot of CV but evidently no one are interested on a stupid Italian programmer. :-(
 * abogani start to think that perhaps he should change "field" ...
<ckontros> abogani: I know how you feel. I was thinking the same thing for a while.
<abogani> ckontros: In any case I'm very very happy for you.
<ckontros> Thanx sir. I hope it turns around soon for you. Things are always slow in the winter.
<abogani> stupid empathy...
 * ckontros still stubbornly clings to Pidgin.
<ScottL_> ckontros: congrats!
<ckontros> Thanx'
#ubuntustudio-devel 2010-03-09
<ScottL> persia, i made good progress (I think) tonight on the plymouth theme packaging, at least in a quantitative sense if not qualitatively as well
<ScottL> I think this should be a new package rather than an update to the existing theme-usplash-ubuntustudio package since this is NOT a usplash theme
<ScottL> and if it is a new package are we having to go through REVU?
<ScottL> ah, I just saw TheMuso is on as well, same question(s) ^^^
<TheMuso> ScottL: I think adding it to ubuntustudio-look is a better bet. Having a package go through binary new rather than deal with source new as well is much easier.
<ScottL> okay, i'll download the ubuntustudio-look source tomorrow night and integrate the plymouth them into it
<ScottL> by the way, I think this will make me feel better on another front
<ScottL> i was using the xubuntu-plymouth-theme as a template and noticed that it is integrated into xubuntu-artwork which includes icons, gdm and a bunch of other stuff i'm too tired to remember
<ScottL> TheMuso, I believe at this point we do not have a login background, if this is true then can I do something to correct this?
<TheMuso> ScottL: We do have a login background, but it requires a fix relating to gdm to be made. I really need to look into that.
<ScottL> i also saw something, somewhere that said plymouth conflicts with gdm which confused me :/ but that will have to wait until tomorrow to worry about
<ScottL> TheMuso, ah, very good  1) i wasn't mistaken, 2) someone else is (probably) going to figure out all the widdly bits
<ScottL> but if you do need someone to the leg work please let me know how I can help
 * ScottL is going to bed
<TheMuso> ScottL: night
<jussi01> ScottL: nice work on the mail
<ScottL_> thanks jussi01 , i had been meaning to do that earlier but got wrapped up in the plymouth theme amongst other odds and ends
<ScottL_> i hope everyone likes the description i used, i really wanted to stress that the forums are not only for asking for help
<jussi01> ScottL: I did.
<ScottL_> good :)
<ScottL_> We now have a forum at Ubuntu Forums that says "Ubuntu Studio" instead of "Mulitmedia Production"
<ScottL_> i'll work up an email tonight or tomorrow for the -users mailing list that mentions it and encourages people to post there with things other than just problems
<ScottL_> stochastic: can you make/adjust a sticky to mention the change also within the forum?
<stochastic> ScottL, I'm not sure exactly that a sticky is needed.  What would it consist of?
#ubuntustudio-devel 2010-03-10
<ScottL> i thought explaining the change would be nice
<ScottL> just a heads up that it used to be called "multimedia production" and we can talk about all aspects of Ubuntu Studio
<jussi01> good morning all.
<persia> Already?  Bother the earth is spinning too fast today.
<jussi01> hehe
<jussi01> its early yet, still before 8... just
<persia> Yeah, but if this were an ideal day, you'd still be asleep when I was at my current stage of dealing with the stuff I deal with at the start of a day.
<persia> :)
<jussi01> heh
<ScottL_> for those who are interested, I should build ubuntustudio-look tonight that will include the ubuntustudio-plymouth-theme in my ppa
<ScottL_> i should also be able to test in VM that it works, hopefully others will be available tonight and/or tomorrow to test as well
<ScottL_> then I should I will make the UI Freeze exception bug tomorrow night
<ScottL_> lastly, I suppose somebody will need to push the update into the bzr branch as well
<stochastic> hmm, looks like OpenShot is now in the Ubuntu repositories.  We might want to consider it for inclusion in the Video meta as it has a lot of fans.
<ScottL_> that's pretty interesting, I might down load it next week and play with it
<ScottL_> it certainly has gotten some bad press (twice in LXF and one on Linux Outlaws) but development seems to be pretty aggressive, so hopefully it keeps improving
#ubuntustudio-devel 2010-03-11
<rlameiro> hello there
<rlameiro> is it possible to add some packages to lucid?
<rlameiro> looking at this distro as a media and arts distro
<rlameiro> i think it would be nice to add arduino to US
<rlameiro> https://launchpad.net/~arduino-ubuntu-team/+archive/ppa
<rlameiro> there is already a ppa with it
<rlameiro> what is needed to add it to US?
<ScottL> rlameiro, the Feature Freeze has already occurred for Lucid which would essentially prevent any additional applications being added for this cycle
<rlameiro> so also to add the package to universe also? ScottL ?
<rlameiro> asking to some MOTU or something
<rlameiro> or is it impossible after feature freeze?
<ScottL> rlameiro, you would need to package the new package (I am assuming it is a new package) and then submit it to REVU
<ScottL> !revu | rlameiro 
<ubottu> rlameiro: REVU is a web-based tool to give people who have worked on Ubuntu packages a chance to "put their packages out there" for other people to look at and comment on in a structured manner. See https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/Packages/REVU
<rlameiro> ScottL: i think its new
<rlameiro> its from february
<stochastic> rlameiro, it's unlikely that any MOTU would be willing to allow arduino into Universe during feature freeze.  Wait until the summer and add the package to REVU then, then poke us in here to get the ball rolling for the Money Monkey release.
<rlameiro> stochastic: It is not my package
<rlameiro> I just found out about it today 
<stochastic> rlameiro, well if the owner doesn't add it to revu then you're welcome to
<ScottL> stochastic, Money Monkey?
<rlameiro> I will try to talk to the arduino-ubuntu team
<rlameiro> lol
<ScottL> is that official? :/
<rlameiro> is that the next release name?
<stochastic> ScottL, or is Majestic Moose a better name?
<rlameiro> I like money monkey :D
<rlameiro> hihihi
<stochastic> no, I'm just using M combinations, nothing is announced yet
<ScottL> hehe, you're the Canadian...moose probably is better ;)
<rlameiro> lol
<ScottL> hey, i meant to tell you congrat on Olympic hockey!
<stochastic> yeah, it was some party here
<stochastic> anyways, I gotta run
<jussi01> Lads and ladies, currently our IRC channels are not within the #ubuntu-* namespace, causing issues for channel management. I propse we switch the forwards the other way around, so joining #ubuntustudio forwards to #ubuntu-studio and the same for -devel. any concerns?
<persia> jussi01: Wasn't there some reason we did it this way, related to branding?
<persia> And can the namespace not be adjusted from ubuntu-* to ubuntu* ?
<jussi01> persia: I dont know and definately not.
<persia> Hrm.  Ask the mailing list, and that's unfortunate.
<jussi01> it used to be #ubuntu* but it isnt now. and Im not going to try change it...
 * jussi01 just loves politics... rlleyes...
<persia> Which channel made it #ubuntu-* instead of #ubuntu*  ?
<persia> Err., nevermind.  Offtopic.
<stochastic> does anyone have any idea why ubuntu-desktop is producing uninstallable binaries right now?
<stochastic> *ubuntustudio-desktop that is
<persia> gnome-app-install doesn't exist any more?  Needs a seed merge?
 * persia is kinda guessing
<stochastic> persia, what replaces gnome-app-install?
<persia> according to apt, "gnome-codec-install", but I believe it's really "software-centre" or some such.
<stochastic> is it just replaced by ubuntu-software-center (which we are already shipping?
<stochastic> okay
<persia> I also suspect there are a number of other seed changes that happened in Ubuntu Desktop that we need to merge.
<persia> So it's really a process of doing a seed merge in bzr, making sure to make the changes that make sense, and preserve the differences that make sense.
<persia> Then running geminate again and uploading a new -meta
 * stochastic doesn't have time to do a thorough merge right now, but will remove gnome-app-install
<persia> I'll see if I have time this weekend, if TheMuso doesn't get to it first.
<ckontros> Hi All. So what was last weeks issue with the disks not building?
<persia> We never figured it out, but we identified a new issue.
<ckontros> Boo...
<ckontros> Such as?
<persia> We need to do a seed merge from ubuntu desktop
<persia> right now we can't install ubuntustudio desktop
<ckontros> Oh. Doesn't Luke usually handle that?
<ckontros> (this has come up before)
<persia> Luke has incredibly little time lately, do to some changes in other areas in the ecosystem.
<persia> No fault to him: he's swamped, but it shows (and it's why he had to resign).
<ckontros> sure
#ubuntustudio-devel 2010-03-12
<ScottL> persia: I had a look at the setup.py at it certainly wasn't clear at first glance ;P   any pointers you might offer would be greatly appreciated
<ScottL> i have sick kids rights now (that's why I got some done today during the day) but I should devote some more time to study it a little later tonight
<ScottL> i wasn't joking earlier when I stated I've never messed with python before :(   but again, I'll look through it and try to work it out given the context
<ScottL> TheMuso, would you have two minutes to look at what I want to add to the ubuntustudio-look setup.py file to install the plymouth theme?
<ScottL> not the whole file, just the one line that I want to add
<TheMuso> ScottL: Sure.
<persia> ScottL: Sorry, had a bit of a nap, and have to run off for a few hours, which probably digs into your night.  I'll check backscroll, and send you an email if you don't visibly have it resolved.
<ScottL> persia, TheMuso       ('lib/plymouth/themes/ubuntustudio-logo', glob.glob('lib/plymouth/themes/ubuntustudio-logo/*'))
<ScottL> that is what I added, i'm assuming that the 'ubuntustudio-logo' directory will be created under lib/plymouth/themes automatically
<ScottL> and the ...ubuntustudio-logo/* will copy everything from that directory
 * TheMuso needs to look at how the rest of the file is done to refres his memory.
<ScottL> i'll be holding my son trying to get him to go to sleep but I'll keep checking back on IRC every ten minutes or so
<TheMuso> ScottL: that looks right. The theme doesn't need to be compiled?
<ScottL> TheMuso, no, it's quite nice!  real improvement, there.  It's using .png files for the graphics
<TheMuso> ScottL: ah cool
 * TheMuso wonders how we set the default plymouth theme...
<ScottL> postint file - plymouth-set-default-theme --rebuild-initramfs ubuntustudio-logo
<TheMuso> noice.
<ScottL> i stole this from xubuntu-plymouth-theme    wish i was this cool ;P
<TheMuso> ah ok
<ScottL> going upstairs to try to clean up the problem in setup.py, i'm hoping I just screwed up some syntax when I added the line
<TheMuso> ScottL: ah ok
<ScottL_> yeah, I forgot the ending comma, going to try to rebuild and then install on fresh lucid-alpha partition (crosses fingers)
<TheMuso> ScottL: If adding another line below others, don't forget to add a comma at the end of the previous line.
<ScottL_> that was it, except I inserted it into the middle between two lines that didn't wrap around on the text editor (it looked cleaner and less likely for me to mess up)
<ScottL_> well not in the middle of an individual line of course, but in the middle of the collective
<TheMuso> ScottL: right
<ScottL> it's going to take an hour to build in ppa, i'm going to bed, good night (or day)
 * abogani waves
<abogani> Could anyone correct an email before that I sent it? 
<persia> I can proofread one, sure.  pastebin?
<abogani> persia: http://paste.ubuntu.com/393912/ Thanks.
<abogani> persia: Feel free to offend me (for my very bad English). :-)
<persia> Do you want critique, or me to edit it directly?
<persia> Also, do you want the old linux-rt package in the archive?
<abogani> persia: Yes let linux-rt untouched please.
<persia> And do you want critique or edits?
<abogani> persia: I really appreciate if I can see your corrections (so edits please).
<persia> Sure.
<abogani> persia: Thanks very lot (I'm always very grateful to whom try to teach me some good English).
<persia> http://paste.ubuntu.com/393917/
<persia> Note that I would have phrased things very differently.  I tried to keep your pacing and sentence structure, just changing a few words and word positions.
<abogani> persia: If it isn't a problem could you send me your version. If UDS ever came in Italy I'll offer a beer to for sure (or a glass of Chianti) :-)
<persia> My version?  You mean a rewrite?
<abogani> persia: Yes! If it isn't a problem for you (I wouldn't want bother you too much) 
<persia> No problem.  Just take a bit (rewriting takes more time, like a real critique : edits are easy :) )
<abogani> persia: Thanks (again)
<persia> abogani: If I were writing that email, I'd have written something more like http://paste.ubuntu.com/393926/ .  I'll ask that you not send that directly, but if you want to borrow some of that and merge with http://paste.ubuntu.com/393917/ (or other sources), I would be happy to proofread it again.
<persia> Each of us has our own voice in writing, and that presents itself, regardless of language.  I very much do *not* want to have you send something that indicates you are a different person than you are :)
<persia> (plus it appears that the last paste has a couple spelling errors (e.g. flavout))
<abogani> persia: I understand. 
 * abogani listening Readtzky March...
<abogani> Radetzky
<abogani>  :-)
<persia> :)
<rlameiro> radetzky??? the march ?
<abogani> rlameiro: Yes
<rlameiro> will play that tomorrow
<rlameiro> lol
<rlameiro> again one more time
 * abogani now switched to "Mysterious Ways."..
<abogani> persia: I would want send your corrected version (http://paste.ubuntu.com/393917/) to studio devel/user and kernel mailing lists. May I send?
<persia> Sure.  That's just edits to your voice.  I expected you to send that.
<persia> Err, wait.
<persia> Yeah, go ahead.
<persia> It's http://paste.ubuntu.com/393926/ that I didn't want you to send, because it reads like I wrote it.
<abogani> persia: Sent. Thanks a lot for you help.
 * abogani just read an email on -devel and wondering on who take care of new member requests...
<persia> What sort of member?
<abogani> persia: https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-studio-devel/2010-March/002292.html
<abogani> jussi01: Are you around?
 * persia hunts down quadrispro
<ScottL> re: ubuntu studio developer membership - I think most apply via the launchpad team and I believe that Luke (TheMuso) accepts or rejects them
<ScottL> re: quadrispro     yay!
 * abogani never heard that Luke take care of new members...
<ScottL> I only know from experience
<abogani> ScottL: Do you have any idea on who is the moderator of -users mailinglist?
<ScottL> abogani, maybe, and this isn't definitive, just maybe it might be jussi01 
<abogani> ScottL: Thanks Mr!
<ScottL> persia, TheMuso, the build and installation of the plymouth theme went well and it works, although since ubuntu studio boots so quick you don't get much of a look at it
<ScottL> persia, TheMuso, I'll file the UIF today while I'm at work (grandfather is coming to stay with sick kids today)
<persia> ScottL: Perfect.
<persia> ScottL: Thanks a lot for making this happen.
<jussi01> abogani: pong
<jussi01> and yes, I am the moderator of the list. 
<abogani> ScottL: How many kids?
<abogani> jussi01: Could you take care of this https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/confirm/ubuntu-studio-users/83402f205ff83ce18268123caa53e3fbb9d8b324, please? Thanks in advance!
<jussi01> abogani: you want it canceled or acctepted?
<abogani> jussi01: The second one, please.
<jussi01> abogani: done
<abogani> jussi01: Thanks.
<jussi01> oh for petes sake, will someone add abogani to the team already?
<abogani> jussi01: Sorry I don't understand...
<jussi01> abogani: I just read your email. I dont understand why someone hasnt added you already to the team...
<jussi01> but hang on
<jussi01> you are a member of the team...
<jussi01> Alessio Igor Bogani	2007-04-17	 ?	Approved
<jussi01> oh hang on
<jussi01> Im reading wrong... 
<jussi01> Im looking at a different alessios email..
 * jussi01 blushes and hides...
<abogani> jussi01: :-)
<abogani> What? Rhythmbox just started to play a Take That song! arghhhhhhh
 * abogani singing "That's Amore" right now ...
<ScottL> persia, thanks for the thanks, I am very, very glad to help (as I've probably stated numerous times before, heh)
<ScottL> I just wished I knew more already so trying to get things like this done quickly wouldn't cause me to be a slightly frantic wreck
<ScottL> abogani, two are sick and staying home, my wife and I were up almost all night two nights ago and I was a slight bit punch drunk from lack of sleep over two days (this is the normal me for the record)
<persia> ScottL: The key thing to concentrate on for lucid is learning how things work, and how to get things done.  That should let you be productive in lucid+1 when you can follow the entire release schedule.  Don't worry too much if some stuff slips this cycle: you're still learning.
<abogani> ScottL: Wow :-) If I recall well you are three-times father, right? Where is the third one? School?
<jussi01> hello `Alessio`
<`Alessio`> hello jussi01 persia 
<`Alessio`> hello everyone
 * jussi01 guesses this is alessio treglia?
<persia> `Alessio`: What happened to "quadrispro"?
<persia> heh :)
<persia> Thanks for hitting the ams bug.
<quadrispro> yep, now I'm myself :)
<jussi01> ahh now theres no double tab :D
<quadrispro> you're welcome, was my fault, I forgot to file a sync request
<persia> I wondered about that when I saw the changelog :)
<quadrispro> eh eh, my exams, idjc and some other stuff made me very busy
<quadrispro> persia, have you ever been at the Canonical office in London? take a look a this fantastic view -> http://images.alessiotreglia.com/pool/millbank_tower.jpg
<persia> Never been there.  Nice view!
<quadrispro> before going away I would notice you that I'm working on the linuxsampler packaging, I hope Free should upload it to unstable in the next few days, so after that if we could try to get it in Lucid we need to manage a FFe
<persia> Did the license for that get sane, or is it still special?
 * persia will argue for blacklisting if it's still special
<quadrispro> the license is GPL-3 with a special "commercial exception"
<quadrispro> but we hope to get it available from non-free
<persia> Please don't.
<persia> It was removed from Debian based on that license.
<quadrispro> yep we know
<persia> The license is self-contradictory.
<persia> Can you not convince Christian to use a sane license?
<quadrispro> yes, we know, but upstream explained us the reason
<persia> Which was the explanation this time?
 * persia has seen about 4 so far
<quadrispro> and it's quite easy: he doesn't want that 3rd parties can use his code to write new commercial and non-open software based on his work
<persia> GPL does part 2.
<persia> And GPL effectively does part 1 too.
<persia> Because if anyone does do that, any purchaser can request the code.
<persia> And then the purchaser can distribute for free, etc.
<quadrispro> so, he said: "you can use it for commercial purposes, but you can't write any commercial linuxsampler-based software and release it under other different licenses"
<quadrispro> yep, we know, but it's hard to convince him to change the license 
<persia> quadrispro: The non-commercial clause contradicts clause 4 of the GPL.
<persia> It cannot be distributed with the license as written.
<persia> I know.  I was involved in a debate with him a long time ago.
<quadrispro> yes, it also contradicts DFSG
<persia> I will blacklist it from Ubuntu and complain to debian-legal if it gets into Debian with that license.
<persia> Not that it's not good software, but that I do not believe it to be safe for any of the mirrors to distribute it.
<quadrispro> I will talk to Free about that and try (again) to convince Christian to remove that clause
<persia> Please.
<persia> I'd love to have that software working, but I will push to have it dropped again if it gets in with that license.
<quadrispro> now I have to go, but thanks persia, I'll let you know
<quadrispro> see you later
<persia> Great.  Happy to have you around.
<quadrispro> thanks, the same here. hope to see you again at the next UDS!
<quadrispro> see you later guys
<ScottL_> hi quadrispro, glad you are here
<abogani> jussi01: Could you help me again? https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/confirm/ubuntu-studio-users/f1d9aafd2ee1bf651d96f647b5278f4685718df0
<abogani> jussi01: Could you accept it, please? Thanks in advance! 
<ScottL_> persia: don't know if you are around...i somewhat kept an eye on the release meeting but I was pretty busy at work today (being out with kids yesterday) and they talk about a LOT
<ScottL_> so i'll review the meeting over the weekend and mention anything that I find of note
<ScottL_> UI freeze exception bug filed LP#538274 for plymouth theme
<ScottL_> persia or TheMuso, what is the next step that I need to do if/when the exception is approved
#ubuntustudio-devel 2010-03-13
<quadrispro> <ScottL_> hi quadrispro, glad you are here
<quadrispro> ScottL, thanks, nice to see you here around :)
<persia> ScottL: Next step once the exception is approved is to get your stuff into the branch and get it uploaded.  Just ping us here.
<persia> (as I don't think most sponsors can commit to the right bzr tree, etc.)
<ScottL> persia, will a debdiff need to be created?  is that the mechanism?
<ScottL> because I can start the debdiff now then
<ScottL> just to be ready
<persia> debdiff isn't necessary, but can help.
<persia> The way we tend to do work on that package is to pull the branch, edit, and push a new one.
<persia> https://code.launchpad.net/~ubuntustudio-dev lists all our branches, but you probably want to start from  lp:~ubuntustudio-dev/ubuntustudio-look/UbuntuStudio
<persia> ScottL: So if you want to use bzr, and just shove the changes in there, that actually makes it *easier* for this package.
<persia> IF you don't especially, and just want to send a debdiff, that can also work.
<ScottL> persia, I'll start reading up on bzr (something I wanted to do at some point) and make this my direction
<persia> ScottL: OK.
<persia> Most of it is `bzr branch $URI`, make changes, `bzr diff` to check changes, `bzr debcommit` to commit the changes based on the updated contents of debian/changelog, `bzr push $other-URI` to push them somewhere for review/merge
<persia> There's *lots* more to bzr, but that set ought be enough to get you productive.
<ScottL> tre cool, thanks
<persia> I generally recommend using `apt-get --download-only source $PACKAGE`in the directory first, to avoid a set of common mistakes.
<ScottL> reminder about the monthly non-mandatory developers meeting scheduled in about 20 hours - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/Meetings/2010Mar14
<ScottL> don't forget about daylight saving time if it applies to you
#ubuntustudio-devel 2010-03-14
 * persia has about a 14% chance of being awake at that hour, and shares apologies in advance.
<ScottL> developer meeting in less than 30 minutes
<ScottL> detrate, JuniperJaxx persia rlameiro TheMuso ^^^
<ScottL> agenda - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/Meetings/2010Mar14
<rlameiro> hello
<rlameiro> meeting time
<ScottL> who's here for the meeting?
<quadrispro> hello folks
<rlameiro> me
<ScottL> I'd like to wait about five minutes and see who else shows up if that's okay
<rlameiro> is it to early for stochastic?
<rlameiro> for me its ok
<ScottL> here's a link to the agenda   https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/Meetings/2010Mar14
<quadrispro> here i am :)
<ScottL> re: stochastic, it should be around 2:00pm for him, but he does keep slightly different hours I believe
<ScottL> hi quadrispro, glad you joined us
<rlameiro> i will make coffe then
<rlameiro> 5 minutes and i come
<quadrispro> I'm happy being there
<rlameiro> back
<ScottL> *sigh* not much of a turn out, i'm suggesting we postpone the meeting since we don't have too many people here
<rlameiro> np for me
<rlameiro> ScottL: I wanted to discuss an idea with you
<ScottL> we _could_ run through the agenda but there wouldn't be many answers for many of the questions
<ScottL> rlameiro, please, go ahead
<rlameiro> I was thinking in making a python GUI that could help and ease the install software outside ubuntu
<ScottL> installing non-ubuntu applications?
<rlameiro> something like having people posting the deb  repo to a website and the software will add the line to aptlist
<rlameiro> yeap
<rlameiro> there is a lot of software outside universe
<rlameiro> for example
<rlameiro> pd extended
<rlameiro> and others
<rlameiro> the idea is to simplify the process of install of software that didnt got to Universe
<ScottL> hmm, that could certainly be helpful to a lot of people
<rlameiro> devs or uses could put into the db the software links
<ScottL> it might even help people to try out new applications who might then suggest we officially package them for inclusion into Ubuntu Studio
<rlameiro> or maybe copy the debs all to one pps to this
<rlameiro> of course it will have warnings telling that it isnt ubuntu certified etc
<rlameiro> ScottL: yeap
<rlameiro> thas the idea
<rlameiro> dont know
<rlameiro> plugins, new releases etc
<rlameiro> maybe it only could get it only on 10.10
<rlameiro> but anyway its something i could try to hack
<ScottL> of course if there is a .deb file then they could just download the .deb to their desktop and double click the file too
<rlameiro> ScottL: can I make a ppa and copy debs from other places?
<rlameiro> makin it like a repo
<rlameiro> or it needs to be packaged by me?
<ScottL> I don't think you can copy .debs to a ppa
<rlameiro> hummm
<rlameiro> well i will find a way
<rlameiro> either adding deb repos or direct links to download
<rlameiro> the software will only use apt-get and wget etc...
<ScottL> it is possible to create your own personal (and available to others) repository though
<ScottL> you could copy the .deb files to your personal repository and others could add it to their sources.list
<ScottL> this is not releated to PPAs by the way
<rlameiro> something like that
<rlameiro> why no?
<ScottL> quick google search - http://mediakey.dk/~cc/howto-create-your-own-debian-or-ubuntu-package-repository/
<ScottL> creating your own repository is not directly related to PPAs and would not be hosted by Canonical, Launchpad, etc
<rlameiro> yeah, the proplem would be the bandwith...
<ScottL> BUT, you would have complete control over content and should be able to populate it by copying .debs directly to it, I believe
<rlameiro> yes it seams a good way to go
<ScottL> oh, and updated (maybe automatically) the packages list
<ScottL> s/updated/update
<ScottL> just because you copy the .deb file there doesn't mean everyone knows its there, even if they update their sources
<ScottL> the packages list tells synaptic (or apt) what packages are available
<ScottL> if you are good at packaging then you could do like others (like falktx) and build packages in your own PPA
<rlameiro> i a
<rlameiro> i am not a good packager
<rlameiro> i am not a packager at all :D
<rlameiro> but i will tr 
<rlameiro> try to learn it
<ScottL> he's got 177 packages here, and this is just for lucid - https://launchpad.net/~falk-t-j/+archive/lucid
<rlameiro> this is one example of a source this tool could add
<ScottL> other people's PPAs can be extremely helpful when packaging for inclusion into the archives
<ScottL> many people just package for personal reasons or for others to use from their PPAs, but not officially
<ScottL> you can download their source, make sure it followes the packaing guide and submit to REVU
<rlameiro> it could be also the fact tha packaging officially it is not easy
<ScottL> it's an extra step (or two) that many people don't want to take
<ScottL> that is very true, i'm still getting my first package through REVU and needed to take a month off to get other things done
<ScottL> plus I made the mistake to ask Persia to check it, and boy did he check it!
<rlameiro> lol
<ScottL> just kidding about it being a mistake
<rlameiro> how works the debian and ubuntu sync?
<ScottL> he's helped me learn metric tonnes about packaging and ubuntu proccesses in general
<ScottL> sync request - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SyncRequestProcess
<ScottL> but an simplied overview is...
<ScottL> make sure their are not ubuntu specific changes made
<ScottL> if not, then file a sync request from debian
<ScottL> if not, then it's a merge request and that is a bit more complicated
<ScottL> scratch that last line
<ScottL> if their are ubuntu specific changes, then it's a merge request and that is a bit more complicated
<ScottL> s/their/there
<rlameiro> I see
<rlameiro> well
<rlameiro> I go now to my girlfriend
<rlameiro> cya
<ScottL> okay, good talking to you again rlameiro 
<rlameiro> and thanks for the info ScottL 
<ScottL> very, very glad to be helpful
<ScottL> quadrispro, I'm probably going to go push my son on the swing
<ScottL> after I talk to a few devs on IRC about a better time I hope to reschedule the meeting again
<quadrispro> ok
<ScottL_> TheMuso, if we reschedule the -dev meeting, would you like your availability considered?
<ScottL_> i'm hoping to coordinate with persia and stochastic as well
<TheMuso> ScottL_: not particularly, rather swamped atm
<ScottL_> TheMuso, okay, thanks
#ubuntustudio-devel 2011-03-07
<abogani> jussi01: Ping
<abogani> jussi
<scott-work> abogani: thanks for you email about getting the -lowlatency kernel wrapped up and sorry i keep having to bug you with problems
<abogani> scott-work: You are welcome.
<scott-work> abogani: at some point i would be curious to learn about how you generated your two git trees with the kernel
<abogani> scott-work: I have just cloned official Natty git tree (applying my changes).
<scott-work> abogani:  "applying my changes"...are these the changes that I am making currently?  or did you make additional changes to the official Natty git tree to create your git tree?
<abogani> scott-work: The second one. If you are interested about changes: http://kernel.ubuntu.com/git?p=abogani/ubuntu-natty-lowlatency.git;a=commitdiff;h=4af5cdfbaf0f4617d2b34bc40a34fca8eb689774
<abogani> scott-work: Obviously for the nature of lowlatency kernel changes are limited to packaging (so no linux kernel code)
<abogani> These are the differences in configuration between -generic and -lowlatency kernel: http://kernel.ubuntu.com/git?p=abogani/ubuntu-natty-lowlatency.git;a=blob;f=debian.lowlatency/config/config.flavour.lowlatency;h=208ac36381710432d2bfd39fd55b3f116ac18bea;hb=4af5cdfbaf0f4617d2b34bc40a34fca8eb689774
#ubuntustudio-devel 2011-03-08
<ailo> I just got the ubuntustudio web page working on my system, but only the main page. Nothing else. If someone wants to check it out, it's http://mousike.dyndns.org/ubuntustudio
<ailo> holstein, ScottL scott-upstairs, or anyone else...
<holstein> ailo: thanks
<holstein> i like it
<ailo> holstein, You think there's supposed to be any more pages working? 
<holstein> ailo: probably not
<holstein> ailo: do you see them in the structure?
<ailo> holstein, Don't know how drupal works. I'm using a database file with mysql and the ubuntustudio look is a drupal theme, which will work even without the database file
<holstein> yeah, ive only dabbled briefly
<holstein> not enough to be helpful
<ailo> holstein, Who is hosting the website? How does that work?
<ailo> http://ubuntustudio.org/, I mean
<holstein> ailo: not sure
<ailo> holstein, ever tried mypaint?
<ailo> Didn't even know about it before. Very simple app, but seems very useful for graphics
<holstein> ailo: i like it :)
<ScottL> sorry, been playing minecraft...ooooh, it's addictive
<ScottL> i still wish this version of the website would manage vertical space better
<ailo> ScottL, I was thinking the same thing about the web page, though the whole page will fit if you have a 1280x1024 resolution
<ailo> I'm using 1024x768 on one monitor, which I suppose is the minimum width for a webpage. 
<ailo> ScottL, Feels like the logo is taking up a lot of the space
<ailo> It's not being space-efficient
<ailo> By logo, I mean the text: ubuntustudio, Linux for creative humans
<ScottL> ailo, i absolutely agree, this is something i stressed before when we were choosing between the two submissions
<ScottL>  
<ScottL> it is tuesday morning for me, this afternoon i will be leaving to travel for business and will not be back until late, late friday night
<ScottL> i doubt i will be online at all during this time
#ubuntustudio-devel 2011-03-09
<ailo__> ScottL, scott-upstairs: Happy traveling!
#ubuntustudio-devel 2011-03-11
<Daviey> Hello!
<Daviey> jack-audio-connection-kit currently build deps on libffado-dev... i guess that is for firewire support
<Daviey> libffado-dev is looking to be demoted to universe, so j-a-k cannot build dep against it
<Daviey> What are your opions?
<Daviey> opinions ?
<falktx> Daviey: why is ffado going to universe?
<falktx> jack without firewire is a serious issue
<Daviey> falktx, That is the current proposal
<Daviey> bug 730759 & bug 730760
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 730759 in dbus-c++ (Ubuntu Natty) "[MIR] b-d for libffado" [High,Incomplete] https://launchpad.net/bugs/730759
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 730760 in libconfig (Ubuntu Natty) "[MIR] b-d for libffado" [High,Incomplete] https://launchpad.net/bugs/730760
<Daviey> falktx, ^^.. Those two need fixing or closing.
<falktx> Daviey: alessio is the debian guru, maybe we should ask him
<holstein> Daviey: right
<Daviey> falktx, Ok. can someone volunteer to come to the release meeting today?
<holstein> Daviey: i can/will
<holstein> we need that package
<AutoStatic> But what are the implications?
<AutoStatic> What if libffado-dev would be moved to universe?
<holstein> i remember when JACK was in universe
<falktx> AutoStatic: jack would be build without it
<holstein> and you couldnt just apt-get things
<holstein> you had to build them with JACK support
<falktx> AutoStatic: unless jack goes to universe again...
<AutoStatic> No, jack-audio-connection-kit would be build without it
<falktx> hm?
<holstein> right
<AutoStatic> And then actually only jackd-firewire
<AutoStatic> So you'll have a working JACK, but without the firewire driver
<Daviey> hang on...
<holstein> AutoStatic: right
<falktx> AutoStatic: hm, splitting jackit and jackd-firewire packages?
<holstein> we lose firewire support
<Daviey> studio is main dependant...
<holstein> out of the box
<AutoStatic> holstein: true
<Daviey> what is keeping jack in main?
<AutoStatic> Didn't think about that
<holstein> we can say on the site, if you have the most appropriate and popular gear in professional audio
<AutoStatic> Daviey: a lot!
<holstein> you can forget about using ubuntustudio
<holstein> out of the box
<AutoStatic> Daviey: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/jack-audio-connection-kit/+bug/510481
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 510481 in jack-audio-connection-kit (Ubuntu) "[MIR] Jack-audio-connection-kit" [High,Fix released]
<holstein> Daviey: where do i need to come and hangout on the IRC and talk
<Daviey> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MainInclusionReportJACK
<holstein> to keep our interests in mind?
<Daviey> holstein, for this issue, this channel seems suitable
<Daviey> Is this channel logged?
<AutoStatic> Yes
<AutoStatic> It's logged
<Daviey> what is the URL?
<AutoStatic> http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2011/03/11/
<Daviey> oh :)
<AutoStatic> http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2011/03/11/%23ubuntustudio-devel.txt
<holstein> Daviey: i appreciate you coming and asking about it :)
<AutoStatic> To be exact :)
<Daviey> holstein, I've told the release manager that you'll be at the meeting
<Daviey> 16:00 UTC today.
<Daviey> in #ubuntu-meeting
<holstein> getting JACK over in the main repo was quite a win for US
<holstein> we are currently dealing with getting an appropriate kernel in the repos
<Daviey> holstein, Well those two bugs need to either be MIR'd, or the the requirement removed :)
<AutoStatic> Only ffado-mixer depends on dbus-c++
<AutoStatic> ie if you want to use ffado-mixer you need dbus-c++
<Daviey> libosso1 aswell
<holstein> Daviey: im looking at those bugs
<holstein> Daviey: meeting in 2 hours?
<holstein> that sounds right?
<Daviey> holstein, yeah..
<holstein> OK
<Daviey> holstein, I know it's short notice, but If you can try and come up with a solution in time for the meeting - that would be awesome.
<Daviey> (doko only mentioned it shortly before i mentioned it)
<holstein> Daviey: well, i will/can come up with something
<holstein> not in 2 hours though
<holstein> but, firewire *cannot* be taken out
<AutoStatic> Maybe split the ffado-dbus-server and ffado-mixer packages from libffado and put those in universe?
<holstein> but, we can get it fixed
<holstein> AutoStatic: do the bugs make sense to you?
<AutoStatic> Not at all :(
<holstein> i dont think #ffado is going to be the answer
<AutoStatic> I know what dbus-c++ relates too
<holstein> those guys are awesome, but not in a hurry about anything
<AutoStatic> And that it used to be included with the ffado source tarball
<AutoStatic> But Debian now has a dbus-c++ package
<AutoStatic> Probably has something to do with that
<holstein> falktx: does that make any sense to you?
<falktx> hm, what?
<holstein> falktx: the bug reports?
<holstein> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/libconfig/+bug/730760
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 730760 in libconfig (Ubuntu Natty) "[MIR] b-d for libffado" [High,Incomplete]
<holstein> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/dbus-c++/+bug/730759
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 730759 in dbus-c++ (Ubuntu Natty) "[MIR] b-d for libffado" [High,Incomplete]
<AutoStatic> First one, seems dbus-c++ is orphaned?
<falktx> holstein: if a package is not really being used (only ffado depends on them), then the bugs make sense
<holstein> falktx: right, but theres got to be a better solution than taking the whole thing out
<holstein> that would hurt US quite a bit
<Daviey> Well the reasoning for taking it out, is to avoid putting those two packages in bugs into main.
<Daviey> If those two bugs can be solved, then there isn't an issue.
<Daviey> :)
<AutoStatic> in bugs => with bugs?
<Daviey> those two packages, mentioned in the bugs.
<AutoStatic> libconfig and dbus-c++?
<Daviey> yes
<AutoStatic> So no symbol files and dbus-c++ is orphaned in Debian
<AutoStatic> symbols files
<holstein> Daviey: you know anyone on the MIR team?
<AutoStatic> I've looked briefly at this symbols files thing for a package I wanted to upload
<AutoStatic> And was happy to find the stuff I needed in the pkg multimedia git repo
<AutoStatic> because it's way over my head ;)
<Daviey> holstein, well i guess.
<holstein> Daviey: on the IRC right now?
<holstein> im just trying to find a contact
<Daviey> holstein, didrocks will be in #ubuntu-devel at the moment.
<falktx> if someone makes symbols file for libconfig, would it be accepted/fixed ?
<holstein> OK
<holstein> https://launchpad.net/~didrocks
<holstein> ^^ gotcha
<holstein> i'll try kees til i see didrocks join
<holstein> Daviey: do you know if that is true?
<holstein> 09:23 < falktx> if someone makes symbols file for libconfig, would it be accepted/fixed ?
<Daviey> try #ubuntu-devel :)
<holstein> OK
<holstein> seems like the only people working today and the package pullers ;)
<holstein> are*
<holstein> Daviey: any other ideas?
<holstein> persia jussi TheMuso abogani - you guys have any ideas/suggestions ?
<holstein> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/dbus-c++/+bug/730759
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 730759 in dbus-c++ (Ubuntu Natty) "[MIR] b-d for libffado" [High,Incomplete]
<holstein> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/libconfig/+bug/730760
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 730760 in libconfig (Ubuntu Natty) "[MIR] b-d for libffado" [High,Incomplete]
<Daviey> holstein, Is didrocks not around in #ubuntu-devel?
<Daviey> holstein, I'm really sorry, but i need to finish prepairing for the meeting myself.
<holstein> Daviey: no worries
<holstein> i'll try being more agressive
<holstein> Daviey: im in that meeting
<holstein> i have no idea how to even respond
<Daviey> holstein, great
<holstein> or what any of that means
<holstein> SO, ping me or whatever
<Daviey> holstein, I'm still writing my notes :)
<Daviey> holstein, What plan did you have?
<Daviey> come up with anything?
<holstein> nope
<holstein> i'll say im on it
<Daviey> ah, ok
<holstein> and i commented on the bugs
<Daviey> great
<holstein> and i need more time
<Daviey> nice one
<holstein> and it cant be demoted
<Daviey> I'll try and convince doko to help
<holstein> i mean, if that gets demoted, we can just let ubuntustudio go
<holstein> we are already so far behind all the other audio distros
<holstein> BUT
<holstein> thats for another day :)
 * holstein focusing on the positive
<holstein> Daviey: just let me know when you want me to 'report'
<holstein> ive already been pinging doko
<holstein> and plan on following up on that
<Daviey> holstein, great, there will probably be an open discussion at the end
<Daviey> As -studio doesn't have a dedicated session, that is where you should mention it
<holstein> ailo: you got a minute?
<ailo> holstein, sure
<holstein> while you were out
<ailo> holstein, Wazzup, my man?
<holstein> hehe
 * holstein high-fives ailo ;)
<holstein> would you look at a couple bugs
<holstein> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/dbus-c++/+bug/730759
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 730759 in dbus-c++ (Ubuntu Natty) "[MIR] b-d for libffado" [High,Incomplete]
<holstein> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/libconfig/+bug/730760
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 730760 in libconfig (Ubuntu Natty) "[MIR] b-d for libffado" [High,Incomplete]
<holstein> i think i have someone that is going to 'fix' them
<holstein> and Daviey brought them to our attention earlier
<ailo> holstein, I'm not all that clear on how all that works. Was just looking at the changelog for the package in Ubuntu
<ailo> ..Ubuntu's repo, and saw that the package in Debian Squeeze is almost the same version
<holstein> ailo: well, just keep in in the back of your mind for a bit
<holstein> we have to sort that out
<holstein> OR get someone to sort it out before beta
<holstein> beta-1
<holstein> fix it
<holstein> or use an earlier verion in natty for a temporary fix
<holstein> otherwise, JACK wont support firewire out of the box
<ailo> holstein, The debian squeeze version is practically identical
<ailo> holstein, At the time the current Ubuntu package was packaged (November 2010), the same Debian package was still in Debian experimental repo. Now it's in stable, however, maybe we would have wanted to use a newer version if possible?
<holstein> maybe
<holstein> ailo: i might try and ping you
<holstein> and take you to the other guy
<holstein> when i hear from him
<holstein> if you dont mind
<holstein> i dont want to take a step backward with JACK
<holstein> and lose default firewire support
<ailo> holstein, I don't mind. I'm probably not of so much help. The last people involved in the packaging were Adrian Knoth and TheMuso. Maybe one of them could help?
<holstein> ailo: thats good to know
<holstein> we'll see how it pans out in the next few days
<holstein> im going to take a nap before driving to the gig :)
<holstein> bbl..
<ailo> holstein, Also, Jonas Smedegaard has been involved in the most recent changes.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2012-03-05
<len-nb> ScottL, I have pulled the settings package with bzr and am making changes for menus and panel. I can fix these other problems at the same time if you like.
<len-nb> You may wish not to make any changes to this package right now so you can just use what I upload... err push
<len-nb> ScottL: I have changed workspace-count to 4
<CFHowlett> any chance we can get the etched desktop wallpapers released or included?    https://wiki.edubuntu.org/UbuntuStudio/Artwork/OfficialOneiric
<len-nb> ScottL wants to use one of them anyway CFHowlett, not sure what has to be done to get there
<CFHowlett> len-nb   fingers crossed.  I really hope ALL of them get released even if they're not included in the official art.
<len-nb> It wouldnot be that hard... i really like choice ;-)
<CFHowlett> len-nb   they do have a particular understated elegance
<CFHowlett> len-nb   looking at the same page, I've gotta say the AWN dock looks sweet as well.
<len-nb> Still not my choice. i am doing some menu changes just now.. the AWN dock has lost it's support, no more development I hear
<CFHowlett> len-nb   disappointing.
<len-nb> There is talk about doing something similar, but not this cycle.
<CFHowlett> len-nb   I'll live iwith it ...
<len-nb> ScottL, please find changes in: https://code.launchpad.net/~len-ovenwerks/+junk/ubuntustudio-default-settings
<len-nb> This should be able to be a straight replacement.
<shnatsel> similar to elementary defaults :)
<shnatsel> this means it should work
<shnatsel> (most of elementary defaults work properly)
<len-nb> shnatsel, I have used this as a drop in place of for a new iso install and it has worked for me
<ScottL> len-nb, i'm building your package to test it, but i had trouble with the last line of your changelog where your name and timestamp are located, it kept giving an 'unexpected EOF' error in debuild
<len-nb> ScottL, that shouldn't be the last line... let me take a look.
<len-nb> The time is wrong. seconds are 3 digets instead of 2
<len-nb> ScottL, sorry about that, it seems to be fixed now though. I have re-pushed it.
<len-nb> I now know one of the things to look for. When looking at the file from LP the line numbers stopped before the end of the file... not at the mistake... but it did show there was a mistake.
<knome> ScottL, there's some improvements on the US website
<ScottL> oh cool, knome , i'll look at it tonight
<knome> :)
<scott-work> knome:  i'm very curious (i thought about this on my way to work), what types of changes were made and by whom?
<knome> scott-work, visual changes by me ;]
<scott-work> ooooh, now i'm _really_ curious
<knome> polishing stuff
<knome> well, you *should* be
<scott-work> WOW!  it looks really, really good!
<scott-work> that is awesome knome !
<knome> thanks and good that you like it :)
<scott-work> work is crazy busy, but i couldn't resist looking
<knome> hehe
<knome> scott-work, do you want the slideshow to progress automatically?
<scott-work> knome: i would say yes, as long as we have the small dots to indicate progress and location then it shoudl be fine
<scott-work> knome: i can't thank you enough for all of your and xubuntu's help this cycle
<knome> i'm not sure how easy it would be to indicate progress
<scott-work> knome: shouldn't one of the dots be a different color to indicate which "slide" is presently showing?
<scott-work> that would indicate progress
<scott-work> micahg 's help is likewise greatly appreciated
<knome> maybe
<scott-work> if is see either of you at a UDS or elsewhere i should buy you a beer (or two) or carry you bags for you if you don't drink :)
<knome> heh, thanks. :) i don't think i'm making uds for Q though...
<scott-work> i put in for sponsorship so i hope to make it, kate stewart has said that she wants all the leads at the various UDS's, but we'll see what happens
<scott-work> knome: two questions for you:  1) is xubuntu going to try to implement the ubiquity plugin this cycle, and 2) is xubuntu going to create a modified lightdm greeter screen this cycle ?
<scott-work> i'm leaning towards not doing either this cycle.  the number of people invovled is reducing and i'm tired
<knome> 1) i think we're postponing 2) we are planning some improvements to the current greeter, the completely new greeter will be added next cycle
<knome> well yeah, time is just running out
<scott-work> i had really wanted to get these things done for the LTS version, but *sigh* i'm feeling like a need a little time away
<knome> mmh.
<scott-work> but i will also need to start thinking pretty soon about next cycle and what our goals might include
<knome> did you see my precursory planning for xubuntu?
<knome> http://temp.knome.fi/xubuntu/q_planning/xubuntu-q.pdf
<scott-work> knome: i did, that is what made me realize that i probably needed to start pretty soon :P
<knome> ;)
<knome> btw, there's now automatically progressing slideshow
<knome> still need to indicate progress though
<knome> heh, okay, that's it
<knome> ;))
<knome> scott-work, ping :)=
<scott-work> knome: pong
<knome> scott-work, look at the website now!!
<scott-work> oh yeah, that looks good :)
<scott-work> i see the slideshow moves and the outline around the current dot
<knome> good :)
<knome> so, what else is there?
<knome> i mean, to it
<scott-work> i think the major part is just content
<knome> yep
<knome> not how i fixed the tour buttons too?
<scott-work> i'm sorry i don't remember the previous buttons, what did you change?
<knome> well, just made them stable
<knome> you'll notice the difference in the code too
<scott-work> did the colour change as well?  it seems it might be slightly different
<knome> shouldn't have :)
<scott-work> okay, maybe it just seems different due to the background changes
<scott-work> i'll have to look at the code later either during lunch or at home, i would have a hard time explaining what i'm doing if someone saw me
<knome> sure ;)
<knome> np
<knome> i'm now pretty aware of what's going on everywhere, so if you want changes, i can make them happen quickly if you ping me in the next 24 hours
<scott-work> i hope to squeeze fifteen minutes today while at work to review the ubiquity-slideshow information and website tour/'more info" pages
<scott-work> as i believe these should be more or less parrallels of each other
<knome> well, i'm not interested in content at this point :)
<knome> if there is anything technical or visual you'd like to change however...
<scott-work> i can see one thing, and i'm sorry to ask this after your efforts already on my behest, would you please remove the "blog" content from the menus?
<scott-work> i still like the idea of informally documenting development, but i just don't think it will happen enough to warrant it's own section
<scott-work> and i think as such it will just present a confusing situation to users
<scott-work> news should be more than enough for the expected output
<knome> sure, np
<knome> would you like the articles in the "blog" section to be moved under "news" ?
<scott-work> i don't think it's necessary to be honest, they could be deleted without disruption i would image, but please use what ever process is easiest for you
<scott-work> micahg: is it too late to add the photography task to the seeds?  i mean in terms of FFe's and such?
<len> scott-work, did my fix last night help? or was it too late?
<scott-work> len: it got to be too late for me.  got up waaay too early going to work yesterday and wen to bed early
<scott-work> however, i will do it first thing when i get home
<len> NP, I am off to work  real quick. I really need to learn to build a package myself too.
<scott-work> len: i can help you with that easily
<scott-work> you can do it locally or use PPA
<len> I am a few timezones down the road so I figured you had finished for the night.
<scott-work> i kinda like ppa because i tend to do packaging on a persitent machine and then test on a "disposable" one that gets reformatted often for testing
<scott-work> len: i stopped working on stuff around 8:00, between the kids in my room and being tired, i just gave up and went to bed
<len> I started downloading the bzr-build stuff, but found that wasn't enough and I need more... I was too tired to go farther the PPA sounds interesting... I just didn't see it anywhere.
<len> Have to run talk later...
<knome> holstein, did you check out  http://knome.fi/temp/ubuntustudio/wordpress/  ?
<knome> stochastic, hello
 * holstein looking
<holstein> mmmm... pretty!
<holstein> i like
<holstein> lets put it up!
<knome> well, i think scott still wants to work on the content, and i can't blame him..
<holstein> as long as we arent working out content in may for this ;)
<holstein> our site is a deal breaker
<holstein> i just answered a "is this project dead?" question
<holstein> right now, it would be better if we *didnt* have the site we have 
<holstein> personally, id rather put up what we got there ASAP, and just have access to change the info
<knome> yup. well, at least everything is ready for precise ;)
<micahg> scott-work: no, shouldn
<micahg> scott-work: no, shouldn't be too late
<stochastic> hey knome, just started the coffee brewing, give me a minute or two until I'm present and ready to chat :P
<knome> okay
<stochastic> I also want to give the site a lookover to refresh memory first
<knome> well, it's undergone some changes in the last 24 hours...
<stochastic> I like the upgrades
<stochastic> knome is it possible to have the 'feature window' on the front page load all of the background images upon page load so there is no lag when first clicked on?
<knome> yes, i will need to look at that
<stochastic> nice
<stochastic> how about an automatic slow scroll through those items that is overridden as soon as one of the dots is clicked on?
<stochastic> I know that's probably a bit hard
<knome> i don't quite get what you mean
<stochastic> say after 3seconds the second dot opens, then 3seconds later the next dot opens, if I click on the fifth or first dot, the auto changing stops
<knome> right
<knome> that's doable, not too hard too
<knome> but i'm not sure if that is actually desired?
<knome> what if the next timeout was just longer?
<knome> i mean, when you click, instead of taking 8.5secs to advance, it was that *3?
<stochastic> Oh, I didn't realize it's already doing that
<knome> no, it isn't
<knome> but it could
<stochastic> it's advancing for me
<knome> and that's really trivial
<stochastic> at 8.5sec
<knome> yeah, it should :)
<knome> but i mean, when you click; instead of stopping completely, it would advance after, say, 30secs ?
<stochastic> no, the current behavior is great
<knome> okay
<stochastic> on the download page, I only see the current release links until I scroll down
<stochastic> most people wont' scroll down - not with those easy buttons
<knome> in that case you need to rethink the content order
<stochastic> is it feasible to put the two release options side-by-side
<stochastic> In general I like the state of the site quite a bit right now
<stochastic> I'd really like to find images for all of the feature window backgrounds so that none are duplicates
<knome> side-by-side; not really, there's so little space
<knome> maybe just list LTS first, like xubuntu
<stochastic> hmm, I'm not sure that's desired
<stochastic> I'll try to play with the layout of that content to see if there's another solution
<knome> yep
<stochastic> I think the background images for that feature window need to be set in stone before the upload to canonical as it'll just be a PITA to change later
<knome> it's not. they can be managed from the admin interface
<stochastic> oh yeah, I was thinking of the drupal way of managing that
<stochastic> where is the admin login again?
<knome> url/wp-admin
<stochastic> what are your thoughts on the site right now knome?
<knome> it's starting to build up
<stochastic> the content isn't fully there, but a lot of sites are live with content in its infancy
<knome> yeah, but in the most cases, that's bad
<knome> there is still time before precise release to fix it
<knome> you should at least get the basic right
<knome> eg. no "ben, add content here" messages
<stochastic> by all means we'll continue to improve it but I don't think the content should stop the cannonical review/upload process
<knome> no, definitely not
<knome> that has nothing to do with it
<knome> and i'm not interested in the content, tbh ;)
<knome> i just want to get it looking good and working.
<stochastic> do you think it is?
<knome> mostly now that i've worked a day with it
<stochastic> I love the latest changes, really gives the site professional sparkle
<knome> okay, the images are preloaded now
<knome> try ctrl+shift+R
<stochastic> cool
<knome> it does come with a slight pause to the loading
<knome> and probably more when you load *all* the images...
 * knome is wondering if he should run that in the footer
<stochastic> probably a smart idea
<stochastic> ScottL, scott-work knome and I think the Canonical review of the site should get under way sooner rather than later.  Do you have the contact for this process?
<knome> i do
<stochastic> ah, perfect
<stochastic> how much work do you think we/you need to spend on the design before the process begins?
<knome> once i get the preloading done well, i think there is only trivial things
<knome> and they can also be updated later
<knome> so basically i'm waiting for an ACK from scott next
<knome> the preloading is now pretty smooth
<knome> off for a while, at least
<scott-work> new qtractor hitting the repos - qtractor (0.5.4-1)
<scott-work> knome: and stochastic: i would susggest that the main menu bar say only 'download' rather than 'download ubuntu studio'
<scott-work> just a suggestion
<knome> worksforme. you can change that from appearance -> menus
<scott-work> okay, i'll do that when i get home then :)
<knome> ScottL, will you ping me when you're home?
<ScottL> knome, ping
<knome> :)
<knome> so do you think we need to change anything before we push this for staging?
<ScottL> knome, do you mean on a fundamental, structural level as a website and not for content?
<knome> anything technical or visual
<knome> anything that needs touching on the code after we've staging will take time
<knome> and code does include css
<ScottL> knome, can i have this evening to go over it?  do we have enough time for that?
<knome> yup. i'd imagine getting the site to staging takes up to at most 2 weeks, after that updates are pretty quick and pushing to production should be trivial too.
<knome> but getting to staging might also take just a few days, but yeah, there's time
<knome> i'd just like to get this rolling *now* :)
<knome> if you want to go through it with me, that's fine too
#ubuntustudio-devel 2012-03-06
<ScottL> knome, ack
<ScottL> knome, my wife is coming home early tonight so i plan to spend some dedicated time to this
<ScottL> len, i'm updating my precise install currently and then i'll test the -default-setting package for the menu/panel
<ScottL> micahg, i apologize for putting you on the spot in the TB meeting today
<ScottL> micahg, and it seems that you become more entwined with studio at each passing as well
<knome> ScottL, "this" == wife or the site? :)
<ScottL> heh, the site actually
<ScottL> :P
<knome> so any ETA?
<micahg> ScottL: heh, I want to help you be viable, one of the requirements is developers with upload rights
<micahg> that's why I stated that I'd help sponsor, but not commit to work on stuff
<ScottL> knome, probably in two or three hours to review the website and make notes
<knome> right... that's too late for me :)
<knome> if you have lots of comments, send an email
<knome> otherwise, PM or chan messages with nick are ok
<ScottL> micahg, i very seriously appreciate your involvement and i hope to learn much
<ScottL> knome, ack
<knome> i believe both of the projects have gained from the cooperation this cycle, and there's no reason why we shouldn't try to continue and build it
<ScottL> i definitely agree with continuing, but i feel like studio has gotten more out of the relationship at this point
<knome> probably
<knome> at least in terms of lines of code :P
<knome> but that isn't everything that should count, is it
<stochastic> ScottL, knome I just want to give the current layout the majority of my blessing to go through staging.  It's a great looking site knome has put together.  All of my remaining critiques are centred around content polishing - something I'll try to tackle in between my other projects.
<knome> ScottL, i know you're probably not available, but...
<knome> ScottL, if you are, ping
<knome> ScottL, ETA on staging is today-tomorrow, it seems :)
<knome> ScottL, once we are there, i'll move the content quickly to the new site
<scott-upstairs> good morning knome, i have a few comments for the website
<scott-upstairs> knome,  i would add two more pages that will also show up in the main "menu bar":  FL/OSS ethos (or something similar, stochastic might have better name) and FAQ
<scott-upstairs> knome, also i would ask that "blog" and "scott lavender" be removed from the "Article Categories" in the right side bar
<scott-upstairs>  
<scott-upstairs> stochastic, i seem to remember that you did not want the news feed on the front page, is that correct
<scott-upstairs> (not that i hold a counter position, i'm just trying to remember)
<scott-upstairs>  
<scott-upstairs> i did spend a little time this morning (actually more than i intended) cleaning up the "tour" areas
<scott-upstairs> i think the major pages of the tour should solely focus on the work flows we support "out of the box"
<scott-upstairs> i would certainly not object to another page that mentioned other "non-supported" (i.e. not installed out-of-the-box) work flows and a link to those wiki pages
<scott-upstairs>  
<scott-upstairs> knome, do you think we should have a "end of tour" or "thanks for looking at the tour" page?
<scott-upstairs>  
<scott-upstairs> knome, nevermind about the FAQ or FL/OSS pages, i was able to make them and place under main menu
<scott-upstairs> mainly i believe we need these pages and just wanted to at least get a place holder with minimal text before staging
<scott-upstairs>  
<scott-upstairs> stochastic, knome, we had previously discussed a social feed on the bottom right corner, did we still want to do this?
<scott-upstairs> i suppose we can always put it in to get into staging/published and then remove it later if we do not need/want it
<ScottL> i'm getting kids ready and then leaving for work
<len> scott-work, Just two quick things. One is that above you were talking about supported vs unsupported uses of US. Ubuntu calls them "shipped" and "supported". While it doesn't matter what we call them on irc it may make sense on our web site to use the same words as ubuntu.
<len> That is we don't ship these apps, but we do envision US being used this way and support that to some extent.
<len> unsupported means we suggest you don't use things that way.
<scott-work> len: good points
<len> settings testing: to test settings (you probably know this... just making sure) Most changes to settings only work at first login
<len> I have found the best way to test settings changes is to create a new user. The new settings get imported the first time you login
<len> scott-work then if I change something, I delete that new user (and directories) and recreate them.
<len> I have been able to just take the installed user and wipe the home directory too, but then I have to recopy /etc/skel before login. and it has to be done from console (I think)
<len> Oh and testing. I don't have as much time right now as I would like... but I would like to test upgrading from both 11.10 and the last LTS. I guess that means two installs one on top of the other. It's the only test I havn't done so far as just having a working install from bare disk has been much more important. I will try to do these tests soon unless there is something else needed first.
<len> I'm off to work.
<scott-work> len: agreed about testing, i would like to do those tests as well, but am lacking time as well
<scott-work> i really think the ubiquity plugin and the theming of lightdm will have to wait until next cycle
<scott-work> i still would like to address the app menu icon, the menu structure, and panels as we have already discussed however
<scott-work> and there are the new images for plymouth, lightdm, desktop that i would like to udpate
<scott-work> along with including some images for desktop that have been rquested on the mailing list
<scott-work> i'm sure there are other thing but i need to consult the roadmap properly to look at them
<scott-work> i hope to start making bzr commits for the icon, menu, and panels tonight - this might take two nights to accomplish properly though
<scott-work> i really want to segregate these commits per micah's comments because i begin to see how this could be really helpful later on to revert something or understand exactly _what_ changes were done for a particular thing
<scott-work> oh, len, i appreciate your help and would like to help you with building packages
<knome> scott-work, easier to try it now. trying it on staging is slooow :|
<knome> scott-work, categories removed. should i remove the articles too?
<scott-work> knome: if it is easy enough or will provide benifit later, i don't think the articles are really of any importance
<holstein> yeah, i say, KISS, and lets get it up!
#ubuntustudio-devel 2012-03-07
<knome> ScottL, you happen to be on?
<ScottL> knome, aye
<knome> ScottL, you've got mail
<ScottL> i read it on the way home, where is the staging site?
<knome> http://staging.ubuntustudio.org/
<knome> that URL was on the mail too :P
<ScottL> i'm sorry, that was presumptiuous, i don't know exactly which email you meant and you might have sent another email after i read those
<ScottL> heh, i see what you meant about the css being broken :/
<knome> yeah.
<knome> i'm just chatting with the IS on the issue
<knome> let's see if we get it fixed
<knome> ScottL, well, just load with https:// and you'll be able to add an exception for the certificate easier :)
<knome> ^ should be fixed for live/production anyway
<knome> yup :)
<knome> i'm off to bed. apart from the cert issue, everything should be fixed on staging now
<knome> see you!
<len> ScottL (or whoever) What is our last LTS release? I'm looking at http://ubuntustudio.org/downloads and none of them are labelled LTS
<len> I guess my real question is aside from 11.10 which other release should I test upgrades from?
<ScottL> len, 10.04 is the previous lts version
<len> ScottL, good, I happen to have that one... I'll have to see if it still installs.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2012-03-08
<knome> ScottL, you still working? :)
<ScottL> knome, i'm home
<len-nb> ScottL (or others) I have installed US 10.04 and now am trying to upgrade to 12.04.
<len-nb> There does not seem to be a way of doing this. It used to be that when I put a neew iso in, a dialog would come up and ask if I wanted to upgrade to the new version (even if it was older)
<len-nb> This no longer happens. I think it stopped happening when we went live.
<len-nb> Opening the update manager and setting the upgrade options from only LTS to any tells me I can install 10.10... I am not thrilled with the idea of installing each version up till now by that route. There is no file I can run (that I can see) on the iso that will do an upgrade either.
<len-nb> The only thing that would sort of do that is the part that will import home directories.... but it will only import home directories that are on another disk.
<len-nb> That would be a fail for anyone with one disk and important data on it.
<len-nb> all, is there supposed to be an upgrade path to 12.04? Do we have to put out an alt so people can upgrade?
<len-nb> ubiquity can't upgrade so far as I can tell. It seems to want to:
<len-nb> A) format a drive for it's use.
<len-nb> B) shrink a partition so it can add a partition for itself
<len-nb> C) let you create a partition for it to format.
<len-nb> If there are two drives or two partitions it will copy home directories from another partition after formatting and installing.
<knome> ScottL, :)
<ScottL> pushed the menu icon fix to bzr
<ScottL> it's kinda sad that my most productive time is in the morning before i get the kids up to get ready for school/day care :/
<ScottL> work is just slaying me lately :(
<ScottL> but i'll hopefully merge len's menu changes soon
<len-nb> scott-work have you read the back log?
<len-nb> I may have explained things better in email on the list.
<len-nb> anyway, I can't upgrade to 12.04 with our live dvd iso from something else.
<scott-work> len-nb: i saw that and have been thinking about it
<scott-work> i do not have an answer for if this is a known problem, why it is happening, or if we can fix it
<scott-work> the answer may very well be that we have to inform users that they will need to do a full reinstallation of the OS
<scott-work> but i was going to poke a few people about this during tomorrow meeting with #ubuntu-release
<astraljava> You don't usually upgrade by booting into the ISO. You insert the media while running the installed OS, then update-manager asks whether you want to use the newer archive as source for upgrade.
<astraljava> But I have no answer to the last issue, if that was attempted as I described above.
<len-nb> scott-work, that was the way I tried first.
<scott-work> sorry, work computer (windows) yielded BSOD
<len-nb> I was wondering if that was why xubuntu still has an alt cd.
<len-nb> as well as a live
<scott-work> len-nb: that could be a good question to micahg or knome or otherwise
<scott-work> i'm not sure we could support both though, we barely manage to get a single image over two architectures tested
<len-nb> I understand. shrinking your old partition and installing the new and then copying the home dirs over could work but then the drive is divided up.
<len-nb> I am not sure if the partition can then be expanded again.
<len-nb> It is no problem for me personally as I have a new drive to install to... or backup to.
<len-nb> scott-work, the other question I have is if when 12.04 becomes both LT and released if I could upgrade from the net. or does the alt installer have to be available?
<scott-work> len-nb: that i don't know, i'm not really sure how the upgrade works on a fundamental level
<scott-work> i would expect that if the upgrade over the net (i.e. an distro upgrade notice) would work even if the user installed with the alternate image
<astraljava> Using do-release-upgrade of course works (from LTS to LTS, too).
<astraljava> Well, works and works. Provided that transitional packages are in order.
<scott-work> i started to freak out and now i realize what is meant by "transitional packages", of which we do have some but i don't know if they are correct
<scott-work> knome: can we still add content to the website while it is in staging?
<ailo> Is Ubuntu really meant to be stable as an upgrade?
<ailo> The option exists, but is a recommended way to install Ubuntu?
<scott-work> i don't like upgrades myself, and i think it has been recommended in the past that a clean install is the preferred methodology for upgrading
<ailo> I've only upgraded once myself. Personally, I always do fresh installs
<ailo> I mean, I like to do fresh installs
<knome> scott-work, yes, of course, in https://staging.ubuntustudio.org/
<scott-work> knome:  how would i log into the https://staging.ubuntustudio.org/ site?  pm if necessary
<scott-work> TheMuso: do you have an eta on when you will be able to rebase the lowlatency kernel?  and more importantly, how can i help and learn this?
<scott-work> micahg: do you think it is too late in the cycle to create the "photography" task/seed?  would i need to file an FFe or other exception?
<TheMuso> scott-work: started working on it yesterday, want to get it up today.
<scott-work> oh, that's good (and bad :P )
<scott-work> i expect that you really don't want to keep doing this and i would like to learn more about maintaining it
<len-nb> scott-work, just so we know, the option to import home directories does not work from 10.04 either, it does work from 11.10, with 10.04 it says there are no "compatible" home directories.
<scott-work> len-nb: interesting....
<scott-work> len-nb: have you checked if users have -rt privileges?  i should have already
<len-nb> scott-work, I haven't downloadedx for a few days (waiting for changes) but no rt that I have seen.
<len-nb> I can check todays if you like.
<TheMuso> scott-work: Unfortunately its not that easy.
<len-nb> The directory copy thing is no big deal... if you are switching drives, the user can copy when ever... just don't copy the settings (.* files)
<len-nb> scott-work: as of fridays iso no rt permitions.
<scott-work> len-nb: i suppose we should check the audio.conf file (or whatever it's called) and see if it's being configured correctly (scott suspects that it is not due to ubiqutiyi not running right)
<len-nb> scott-work, /etc/security/limits.d/audio.conf still says disabled
<scott-work> yeah, i need to follow up with colin about the ubiquity/preseed problem and see where it goes
<scott-work> thanks for checking that
<micahg> scott-work: you can ask in ubuntu-release, but as it's US specific, I don't think they'd object
<scott-work> micahg: is that pertaining to ubiquity/preseeding or about the photography seeds?
<micahg> scott-work: the photography seeds
<scott-work> thank you :)
<TheMuso> len-nb: You cannot upgrade using a live disk.
<TheMuso> len-nb: THis is because all the packages are in a prebuilt live filesystem, and not debs in a repository.
<scott-work> i wonder what would happen if you put a xubuntu alternate disc in
<holstein> but, the upgrade online will work just fine correct?
<holstein> TBH, i never new you could just pop in an alternate CD and upgrade using it
<holstein> still, i think its worth it, having moved to a live CD
<TheMuso> holstein: Online upgrades will work because you are pulling from a repository, yes.
<holstein> TheMuso: cool
<TheMuso> scott-work: Just running one final test build of the updated low latency kernel, and will upload if it builds and boots ok.
<holstein> w00t!
<scott-work> TheMuso: thank you :)
<TheMuso> Ok, new linux-lowlatency uploaded.
<falktx_> ha!
<falktx_> TheMuso: I see it
<falktx_> nice job, TheMuso, ScottL
#ubuntustudio-devel 2012-03-09
<ScottL> heh, luke did all the work :)
<knome> 7msg ScottL project lead rule #1 to grow your image: take the credit if you are offered
<knome> "oops" :)
 * knome bbl
<astraljava> Gah, something wants to pull in gnome-desktop3-data. Gotta investigate.
<CFHowlett> Audacity package still not in the beta
<astraljava> CFHowlett: No wonder, it's not in the seeds. ScottL, is that intentional?
<len-nb> astraljava: is nano in there yet?
<len-nb> I don't know if Scott has answered as there is a gap between the log file and when I started...
<len-nb> There are v
<len-nb> lots of missing apps still.
<len-nb> I think the transition to xfce has been the main focus so far, however, with the new kernel getting added this maight be a good time to add the missing apps.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2012-03-10
<ScottL> astraljava, no, audacity is meant to be there, but i haven't really looked at the seeds yet
<ScottL> i plan to this weekend, to add lowlatency kernel as well along with some photography apps
<ScottL> len-nb, what other apps do you want
<len-nb> ScottL, it would be nice if there was a text editor like nano, and take a look at: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/PrecisePangolin/MissingPackages#preview
<len-nb> We were talking about dvdstyler as well. I looked at the other one qdvdmaster? (I'm not sure but it was listed in the workflows) It doesn't seem to be in the repo... synaptic doesn't find it.
<len-nb> ScottL, I just went through the workflows and listed all the apps that I found missing. I am not sure we should include them all though.
<len-nb> That was one of the things we were supposed to talk about at our missed meetings I think
<ScottL> len-nb, no, i don't want to include all of them, don't want to make _everyone_ download all apps for workflows that only a few actually want (or thought of)
<len-nb> I think there should be at least one good workflow in each of our areas. One full sound, one full graphics, one full video and one full photography.
<len-nb> ScottL, each of them should be a start to finish work flow. I can't see any other way to make the live dvd really shine.
<len-nb> That is why I thought there should be something that can print a video to dvd.
<len-nb> I think the audio side of things is pretty complete already.... it seems most of us are musicians...
<CFHowlett> I could do a podcast workflow if one of you can direct me to the expected template ...
<len-nb>  I can't tell if the photography and graphics sections have something reasonable though.
<len-nb> CFHowlett, I think Scott wants to have workflows that can be installed after the iso install.
<CFHowlett> fair enough
<len-nb> I think the idea is to have a workflow installer that can load new owrkflows. So we would be looking for a podcast workflow as a meta at some point but not as part of the distro iso.
<CFHowlett> len-nb   ah I see I must have misunderstood - "tutorial" is the better term for what I can contribute.
<len-nb> Ah, so you mean using the apps we already have. I think our plans for docs is on line. So that would probably work fine.
<len-nb> CFHowlett, Probably a tutorial that uses apps we don't include would be ok too.
<CFHowlett> len-nb   let me think about that - I was planning to do one for audacity
<len-nb> CFHowlett, We are planning to include audacity anyway. The one person I know who does podcasts wants to be able to use skype to phone someone and be able to record the interview. We don't ship skype (non-free) but it uses PA and we do ship a PA-jack bridge
<len-nb> My gmail account includes a phone app too.
<astraljava> ScottL: Ok, I added audacity, just in case you get busy or something, at least that can be tested.
<CFHowlett> oooh tytytytyty!
<CFHowlett> :)
<astraljava> micahg: Can you please update meta when you have time, so this change becomes effective. Thanks!
<astraljava> CFHowlett: Micah is about to, if hasn't already, entering into his day off, so it'll happen on Sunday the earliest. That means audacity will appear on the images the soonest on Monday. So, hold your horses. :)
<CFHowlett> astraljava   putting down special coffee cup now and waiting patiently.
<astraljava> CFHowlett: Just remember to breathe every now and then.
<CFHowlett> :)
<CFHowlett> Since I only install LTS, I get excited every few years...
<CFHowlett> NOT every 6 months.
<astraljava> I'm sorry for your wife... *groans*
<CFHowlett> astraljava  ha!  not to worry - don't have one.
<astraljava> :)
<tehowe> I was wondering, 
<tehowe> is the alternate install iso going to be supported this time around? I see last build was in January. If a beta quality build was turned into an ISO, I'd be interested in testing it.
<ScottL> tehowe, there is a live-dvd iso available for beta testing
<ScottL> tehowe, we will most likely discontinue the alternate images going forward
<tehowe> ScottL: But how will users take advantage of the privacy of a LUKS installation? 
<tehowe> ScottL: Or, will it be possible to seamlessly add Ubuntu Studio's near-RT kernel and meta packages to reg'lar Ubuntu?
<jussi> tehowe: it will
<ScottL> falktx_, 
<ScottL> falktx_, ping
<falktx_> ScottL: pong
<ScottL> falktx_, would you still help me with getting a few themes into our package?
<ScottL> i have one (or two) from dick macinnis and our old one ported to gtk3
<ScottL> i think it will be nice to include them
 * ScottL is running to the store for about forty minutes
<falktx_> ScottL: isn't it already too late for it?
<tehowe> jussi: Oh, cool. So I guess to get the full Ubuntu-Studio experience I'd add those, and then the studio desktop, what is it LXDE or something
<tehowe> As soon as that's possible (due to state of repositories, etc) I'd like to take a crack at it and out together a how-to as I think it's important to have LUKS
<falktx_> ScottL: what is missing/needs to be done currently?
<len-nb> ScottL
<len-nb> Tried todays iso.
<len-nb> menu logo still has white background
<knome> hurr durr
<len-nb> Audacity is now there
<len-nb> I have sent email to the list with a clear backgrounded logo.
<knome> len-nb, is that exported from svg?
<len-nb> No.
<knome> apparently not...
<knome> i shall do that
<len-nb> There are three files the svg is clear the two pngs are not
<knome> what size png's would you need?
<len-nb> checkn the mail list. I have done one there
<knome> only that one sizE?
<len-nb> That was the one scott had in there, I just took the white out
<knome> okay
<len-nb> There is a second logo png as well, I didn't do that one, so it is still white background. I don't know if its size is different or not.
<knome> could you check that?
<len-nb> Can I download it from the LP page?
<knome> or just point me to the LP page
<len-nb> http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~ubuntustudio-dev/ubuntustudio-default-settings/UbuntuStudio/files/head:/usr/share/pixmaps/
<knome> okay, thanks
<len-nb> it would be ubuntustudio-logo.png that is still white BG
<knome> yup
<len-nb> plus the one I sent
<len-nb> knome: Those ones on LP are fine. Maybe they just haven't made it to the pkg yet
<knome> hmm.
<len-nb> I thought the pkg got remade automatically
<len-nb> Those were fixed on the 8th
<knome> no, not from LP
<len-nb> That would be why then.
<len-nb> ScottL had mentioned he had fixed it which is why I thought I would check the iso. Also to see if audacity made it (it did).
#ubuntustudio-devel 2012-03-11
<CFHowlett> http://www.unixmen.com/medibuntu-repositories-available-for-ubuntu-12-04-lts-precise-pangolin-ppa/
<micahg> astraljava: I can do it tonight, so it should appear on tomorrow's images
<ScottL> micahg, can you wait until tomorrow morning to update the metas?
<micahg> ScottL: sure, no problem, just ping me when you're ready (ISO builds happen around 18:30 UTC IIRC)
<ScottL> micahg, thanks!  i should have the seeds updated in about ten hours
<ScottL> len-nb, knome :  i've updated the applications menu icon already
<ScottL> but it's only been pushed to bzr
<ScottL> len-nb, i don't have privileges yet to get to the actual repos yet, i hope to have it in the next couple of cycles though
<len-nb> Ja we figgured that out.
<ScottL> we still are having a preseed issue (i presume) and have talked to cjwatson and sent in my casper.log file to the bug report
<ScottL> okay, micahg , i think i'm done with updating the seeds
<ScottL> i did two things
<ScottL> #1 replace -generic with -lowlatency
<ScottL> #2 added photography apps but did it in graphics seed
<ScottL> since we don't have tasksel or ubiquity plugin it seems that ALL seeds are being installed, so this shouldn't hurt anything
<ScottL> (i also spoke with scottk about this and this was actually his solution)
<ScottL> oh, i also did these in two separate bzr commits
<micahg> ScottL: thanks, is there a bug that needs closing for these changes?
<micahg> ScottL: I wouldn't remove the -generic kernel unless you're committed to following each main kernel upload with one for lowlatency
<micahg> it's one thing to have it in the archive, it's another to make it default
<micahg> ScottL: also, we should chat tomorrow about how you can do a package security audit so you know if your packageset is supportable
<micahg> ScottL: also, do you have any other KDE packages, digikam will pull in a lot of KDE dependencies
<astraljava> micahg: I see you agreed on it with Scott, which is excellent. Thanks a bunch!
<micahg> astraljava: well, it's under discussion, we'll get it uploaded later today
<astraljava> Sure, WorksForMeâ¢
<shnatsel> hmm, I like pantheon even on ubuntu
<ScottL> micahg, our plan has been to use the -lowlatency kernel as default
<ScottL> micahg, although since it seems to be TheMuso who is currently  rebasing (at least for the short term if not longer) we should get his input
<ScottL> micahg, the blueprint lists getting it into a git repo and then me learning how to rebase for kernel changes/security updates
<ScottL>  
<ScottL> micahg, yes, i would like to discuss security audit on our packageset
<ScottL>  
<ScottL> micahg, hmmm, digikam is not a "must have" application at this point, i was really only trying to make a user from the mailing list happy
<ScottL> micahg, i would rather not include digikam then if it pulls in the kde libraries, i'll adjust the seeds in a few hours
<ScottL>  
<ScottL> shnatsel, ping
<knome> hey ScottL :)
<shnatsel> ScottL: pong
<ScottL> good morning knome 
<knome> good evening! :)
<ScottL> shnatsel, heh, you responded too quickly :P  let me get a link for you to look at, i'd like your opinion on some applications
<ScottL> shnatsel, http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~ubuntustudio-dev/ubuntu-seeds/ubuntustudio.precise/revision/1313
<ScottL> shnatsel, starting at line 25 i have included what i could for photography applications
<ScottL> shnatsel, is there something you would add/change/remove?
<shnatsel> ScottL: well, screw shotwell in the first place. It's no way professional, and it's not needed when you have darktable already.
<shnatsel> ScottL: not sure about rawtherapee, Luminance HDR may be better
<shnatsel> ScottL: well, I was told Luminance HDR is better, but I've never worked with it tbh
<shnatsel> neither of them
<ScottL> i have thought about moving shotwell to the desktop seed for general purpose picture gallery stuff
<knome> ScottL, is it similar to ristretto?
<ScottL> i included rawtherapee because someone on the mailing list talked about it with some praise
<shnatsel> ScottL: well, looks like you'll just have to get somebody try both :)
<ScottL> knome, i don't think so, it's more of a photo gallery type of application i believe, let's you group them, tag them, and i believe it lets you upload to places
<knome> aha, right
<knome> :)
<ScottL> shnatsel, hehe, yeah...just not me, i'm lucky to actually take pictures with my canon t2i
<ScottL> although i do want to start playing around will adjusting colour in my photos
<len> ScottL, Digikam does look like it does a lot of stuff. I'm not arguing for it to be included at this point...
<len> But, I am thinking that we do not have people who use photographic software giving much feedback because while we target these people we don't know what they need.
<len> I would sugest that we would include something like gcdmaster even if it brought the extra libs in just because it feels needed.
<len> It may make sense in starting to support more than just audio to add more apps and not less just to atract the right kind of people.
<len> Maybe if people start using US for a graphics we will get some who will want to be active in development too.
<len> s/graphics/graphics platform/
<kubotu> len meant: "Maybe if people start using US for a graphics platform we will get some who will want to be active in development too."
<len>  
<len> ScottL, all that aside, thankyou for grouping the photography apps in the graphics seed.
<len> I will test for menu placement today when the new iso comes out (seeds seem to happen faster) and make sure things show up  where they should.
<len> I notice there are somethings in the photography section that are commented out because they are already included above.
<len> Should those things appear in both menus?
<ScottL> len, the .desktop file provides the categories for where an app will display in the menu
<ScottL> you can always force it in the menu directory file, but that's not elegant of course
<ScottL> and tedious
<len> The photography apps normally have graphics as a category as well. I have found many .desktop files do not do what they should. For example almost none of the mixer.desktop files include the mixer category. and have to be put there menually.
<len> ScottL there has been some suggestion both in the list and here that in the case where an app is used in more than one place it would make sense for it to appear in more than one menu place as well.
<len> For example gimp is graphics because it belongs there, but it also would get used for fixing photographs and would not be out of place in the photography menu as well.
<len> I don't want to just do a bunch of those kinds of changes though and it seems your feeling is not.
<len> As for being tedious, in my mind the idea is for the programer or in our case packager to do the tedious work so the user has a better use experience.
<len> The programer/packager only has to do it once, the user has to deal with it daily.
<falktx> ScottL: you ping'd me yesterday, but I had to left with internet down. can you describe what is still needed to be done?
<falktx> (hi there everyone)
<len> Hi falktx, it looks like lots of stuff to test this afternoon (for me anyway) new kernel (yahoo!) and new apps.
<falktx> new apps?
<len> Scott has added some photography apps to the seeds
<falktx> oh cool
<falktx> btw, 12.04 now has wine1.4 which doesn't support jack-audio anymore
<falktx> I created come content on the wine sound wiki for this - http://wiki.winehq.org/Sound?rev=50
<falktx> some wine dev didn't liked it and deleted my stuff... :(
<falktx> can someone put this on the ubuntustudio wiki?
<len> Probably the two main things we need to look at are jack having RT out of the box and PA-jack bridging.
<knome> falktx, why don't you add it yourself
<falktx> knome: need to create account first
<knome> falktx, you can log in with LP account
<falktx> ah, and I though my work today was done...
<knome> welcome to FOSS contributing ;)
<len> Ack, I just figured out there was a time change last night... gotta run.
<knome> ScottL, working on sun?
<scott-work> aye, a bit, but i'm also going to spend a little time on ubuntu studio
<scott-work> knome: i have trouble on weekends at the house trying to do creative, abstract thinking when everyone is in the house
<scott-work> knome: so i'm doing a little bit of work, then i'm removing myself downstairs to a meeting room where i can write on the dry erase board, walk around the room in circles, talk to myself, and gesticulate with my hands as i talk
<scott-work> i find that helps me think :)
<scott-work> knome: specifically, i want to work on the slideshow concepts/text which should couple with the information needed for the website tour pages
<scott-work> which loosely will be based on our strongest work flows
<scott-work>  
<scott-work> micahg: i'm sorry, i don't think i ever answered your direct question....no, i don't think there is a bug number to reference for the lowlatency or photography seeds, just blueprints from UDS
<knome> scott-work, heh, sounds good. :)
<scott-work> knome: i'm feeling energized again about development, not sure why or what changed and is the catalyst
<scott-work> but i really want to get some things done before the end of this cycle
<scott-work> ..
<knome> scott-work, yeah, too bad we're past all the freezes
<scott-work> oh, general statement to the channel, i emailed quadrispro about mudita24 and the .desktop file as it looked like git had changed but the changes weren't pushed to release
<scott-work> he said he did it now, so hopefully it's not too late and we can file a sync request and get this updated so we have it in the menus now :)
 * scott-work is going downstairs  for a bit, i'll check back in in about thirty minutes
<knome> see you :)
<scott-work> well, time ot go home
<len-nb> There is no daily ISO today... did the build fail?
<micahg> ScottL: I still have my question about whether the lowlatency kernel should replace the generic one
<len-nb> micahg, Scott did answer, did you miss the answer? or is it still inconclusive? I can quote that part of the irc log if you missed it.
<len-nb> If you need more input... I can't help 
#ubuntustudio-devel 2013-03-04
<len_1304> shai_halud, http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2013/03/03/%23ubuntustudio-devel.html
<len_1304> Its all logged
<shai_halud> got it bookmarked. thanks
<shai_halud> will be in raring in a few minutes
<shai_halud> however,,, download is "hung" at 99%
<shai_halud> going to try writing it anyway
<len_1304> If it is not complete use zsync to correct it.
<len_1304> better than redownloading the whole thing.
<shai_halud> checksum looks good
<shai_halud> off i go
<shai_halud> bbs
<shai_halud> might boot into live and install frmo there
<shai_halud> that didn't go well at all
<Len-nb> How so?
<shai_halud> Len-nb, : the live session loaded, had no functionality other then the clock ticked. So I attempted install, I went to bathroom while partitioner formatted.. When I got back, the macciniss wallpaper was up, and the busy icon, nothing else. So i opened a tty and ran top,  .. and crap, i forget the error now. but it said something like no such something
<shai_halud> i can try again and write it down
<Len-nb> The live session should be fully functional
<shai_halud> it looked fine, just had no interactin
<shai_halud> interaction
<shai_halud> if md5 was good should i bother seeing if zsync will make a difference
<shai_halud> ?
<Len-nb> I am pretty sure, zsync goes by md5, but it does so in smaller chunks
<shai_halud> i will try live again and see if keyboard has any interaction
<shai_halud> bbs
<shai_halud> Len-nb,  ok, same thing this time, but i got error in live when i tried to run top in tty. error was "squashfs error failed to read block c9ebo97/ unable to read fragment cache entry bash: usr/bin... I/O error
<shai_halud> tthe desktop flahed in and out when i tried clicking and right click on desktop caused flash every time, like dumping and reloading desktop
<Len-nb> Try throwing zsync at your image
<shai_halud> k
<Len-nb> that says that it tried to access part of the ISO that wasn't there
<Len-nb> The partition on the iso is a squashfs format
<shai_halud> right
<shai_halud> i'm aware of that, and it leads me to believe that unetbootin didn't burn correctly
<shai_halud> er write
<shai_halud> zsync reading seed file now
<shai_halud> had a few hiccups. maybe was incomplete
<shai_halud> ok target 100% complete. will try to write image again, from terminal this time
<shai_halud> there is a 1.9MB PART file i the dir now. is this what was downloaded/missing?
<shai_halud> both old and new are exact same size
<shai_halud> rewriting anyway
<shai_halud> ok write complete. rebooting
<shai_halud> bbs
<Len-nb> ok. I'm back
<Len-nb> shai_halud, I'm not sure where to go with this.
<Len-nb> Mint is a derivative of ubuntu or debian?
<Len-nb> is the iso to usb stick the same as we use?
<shai_halud> yes
<shai_halud> i have installed with it about 15 timesw
<shai_halud> several windows, several linux installs
<shai_halud> never had issue
<shai_halud> i tested disc from unetbootin/live and no errors were reported
<Len-nb> strange. As I say I can't test the same iso, as I have 32 bit machines
<shai_halud> i don't know if it is simply fs error on the part of unetbootin or the flash drive, but i have no reason, based on the track record, to expect errors from it
<Len-nb> Mine is a week old and worked fine, so I will download a new one.
<shai_halud> should i log the errors in launchpad?
<shai_halud> and my hardware profile?
<shai_halud> i'm done fooling with it tonight, but i will get to it tomorrow
<Len-nb> You can try that. I will ask one of the others to download and at least make sure the live session runs
<Len-nb> (with 64 bit)
<shai_halud> one sec and i will give you the link i used
<shai_halud> http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/ubuntustudio/dvd/current/raring-dvd-i386.iso
<shai_halud> er
<shai_halud>  wait
<shai_halud> http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/ubuntustudio/dvd/current/raring-dvd-amd64.iso
<shai_halud> let me double check and make sure that's the one i used
<Len-nb> Thats the right place.
<Len-nb> I use the i386 one
<shai_halud> yes. that's the one ( i meant to make sure i got amd64)
<shai_halud> i just hope i can correct whatever is wrong with wifi in my ubuntu studio 12.10
<Len-nb> That sounds odd.
<shai_halud> at least i know the wifi card isn't borked. something changed in the configuration though, in U.S.
<shai_halud> yes it does 
<Len-nb> Can it see your AP
<shai_halud> no
<shai_halud> none appear
<shai_halud> typically that install is online as soon as de loads
<Len-nb> is enable wi-fi checked?
<shai_halud> i have had no complaints
<shai_halud> yes
<shai_halud> something to do with the mac address
<shai_halud> it's different in Mint
<shai_halud> going to make a note of the configuration from here and try to set US the same way
<shai_halud> well, i'm off for the night. will make log in launchpad tomorrow
<shai_halud> cheers
<smartboyhw> zequence_, nice page on ubuntustudio.org + posts
<Mick_> hi all
<smartboyhw> hello Mick_ 
<Mick_> Hi again :)
<smartboyhw> LOL
<zequence_> smartboyhw: Thanks
<zequence_> Mick_: Hi. I prepared a page yesterday, which basically says what we went through yesterday https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/JoinTheTeam
<Mick_> oh thanks, yes i figured that I would hang around and get an idea of things
<smartboyhw> Mick_, :)
<smartboyhw> zequence_, so what are we going to do at UDS?
<smartboyhw> UDS-1303 I mean
<smartboyhw> zequence_, https://blueprints.launchpad.net/xubuntu-desktop/+spec/contingencies is interesting
<zequence_> smartboyhw: Any ideas? I can't think of anything right now
<zequence_> At least we should keep track of the rolling release discussion
<smartboyhw> zequence_, of course
<smartboyhw> zequence, one thing I think of is that I rather suggest having at least one to two physical UDS per LTS cycle
<zequence> A physical UDS for an LTS does make sense, yes
<Mick_> the dependecy tree in the roadmap is hard to read, bit small
<zequence> Mick_: Yes. I've put together an overview in the wiki
<zequence> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/PermanentBlueprintOverview
<Mick_> oh ok, maybe a note in there then?
<zequence> Ah, right. I haven't added the link to the root. will do
<smartboyhw> :)
<smartboyhw> zequence, I really hope that shai_lalud can come todahy
<smartboyhw> s/todahy/today/
<kubotu> smartboyhw meant: "zequence, I really hope that shai_lalud can come today"
 * smartboyhw needs to go through with him about the QA processes
<zequence> smartboyhw: Seems like we'll be seeing more of him
<smartboyhw> zequence, :)
<smartboyhw> zequence, now with rolling release comes a problem: How do we fix the upgrades?
<smartboyhw> Don't forget our metas....
<smartboyhw> Bug 1066401
<ubottu> bug 1066401 in ubuntustudio-meta (Ubuntu) "distribution upgrade to 12.10 omits two metas" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1066401
<smartboyhw> One thing too: one of the workitems of scott-work is to ask dick macinnis to lead art crowdsourcing which will be difficult since he would rather want to work on Dream Studio....
<smartboyhw> And finally: We can easily clean up "add create-resources to seeds" item....
<zequence> smartboyhw: It's better Scott handles his own tasks. I'm expecting to see him today
<smartboyhw> zequence, I am too
<zequence> We can add create-resources ourselves though
<smartboyhw> yep
<zequence> I still need to change our seeds and metas, so I will do that at the same time
<smartboyhw> zequence, :)
<smartboyhw> zequence, that = putting create-resources in?
<zequence> Yes
<zequence> I'm not sure we should have an upgrade add two more metas
<zequence> Or, if we do, the user should have a choice
<smartboyhw> zequence, but then that will mean we're not giving them the experience + workflows they should get while upgrading
<zequence> Len-nb: When modifying seeds, it's enough just to make a comment in bzr. I'd prefer having the seed files clean, and only use comments there for things that need attention
<zequence> A comment in the bzr commit, I mean
<zequence> Len-nb: Do you recognize this task from blueprints? "[ubuntustudio-dev] Make sure the custom menu has entries for "all" multimedia applications available to Linux"
<zequence> Len-nb: I've postponed most of our tasks in our blueprints. We can still do some of those. Just cleaning up our stuff before feature freeze
<zequence> I think the only thing I will have time for is prepare new metas (if I do that today). 
<smartboyhw> zequence, what new metas?
<zequence> smartboyhw: We're putting together all the audio metas into one
<smartboyhw> zequence, oh
<smartboyhw> zequence, /me wants to try.
<zequence> smartboyhw: I need to learn this too. And, I figure you have enough to do already.
<smartboyhw> zequence, not much today
<smartboyhw> Basically nothing
<zequence> Well, I won't save any time by showing you how
<smartboyhw> zequence, OK
<zequence> ..not right now at least
<smartboyhw> OK
<zequence> smartboyhw: If you can find something in the blueprint, even if it's postponed, that you think you can do, do it
<smartboyhw> zequence, ok
<zequence> There were some ideas about GRUB
<smartboyhw> zequence, uh huh
<zequence> smartboyhw: The three last items in https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/ubuntustudio-r-misc
<smartboyhw> I will try the 10-second thing first....
<smartboyhw> zequence, hmm blender is now starting to being packaged for 2.66
<zequence> smartboyhw: packaged, where?
<zequence> Debian?
<smartboyhw> zequence, yep:)
<smartboyhw> zequence, didn't you follow the pkg-multimedia-commits mai list?
<zequence> smartboyhw: I wasn't following the progress of blender being packaged, no
<smartboyhw> zequence, you should (as a member of the Debian MM)
<zequence> smartboyhw: The only person who needs to do that is the one maintaining it
<zequence> Or, whoever has some interest in a new version
<smartboyhw> zequence, well it is one of the requirements when joining the team I think
<zequence> smartboyhw: To follow the progress of blender. no
<smartboyhw> zequence, really?
<zequence> I subscribe to the mail list. I don't keep track of individual packages, if I have no interest in them
<zequence> Only if I have an interest in a certain update of a certain package
<zequence> Like, if there is a really cool feature change, or an important bug fix
<zequence> Then it might be interesting to sync it too
<smartboyhw> zequence, no that's for ALL commit
<smartboyhw> s/commit/commits/
<kubotu> smartboyhw meant: "zequence, no that's for ALL commits"
<smartboyhw> zequence, http://wiki.debian.org/DebianMultimedia/Join
<smartboyhw> "have subscribed pkg-multimedia-commits mailing list.'
<zequence> smartboyhw: Yes, and it is good to subscribe to the mail list. But, it isn't important to keep track of packages that aren't meaningful to you
<smartboyhw> zequence, no I just saw it through the mailing list anyway so I tell it to you:P
<zequence> smartboyhw: Let me ask you. Why would you want to become a Debian multimedia member?
<smartboyhw> zequence, to help packaging new apps.
<smartboyhw> For example, remember the app I told you before (vModSynth)?
<zequence> Yes
<smartboyhw> I want to package it to Debian (as you suggested) and it would be good for me to join the team
<smartboyhw> As one of the MM guy suggested
<zequence> Well, that's all good. But, what I'm after is this: The reason why we do anything is to improve free software. While it is fun to do some things, we will only do them, if we are improving something
<smartboyhw> We are aren't we!?
<zequence> Forget I mentioned anything. It's a very tricky subject anyway
<zequence> smartboyhw: If you happen to know a new version of a Debian package fixes something for us, I would be happy to know about it
<zequence> Otherwise, I get all that mail too
<smartboyhw> zequence, OK
<zequence> There was a nice peak of user activity after posting on fb. It's nice being able to see some statistics, even if they don't really tell all that much in the end
<zequence> It does help making posts anyway
<zequence> People will pass the posts along, which could make a world of difference
<smartboyhw> zequence, :)
<zequence> I just got a mail from someone wanting to join
<zequence> He will probably not have much time, but seems adequate in many areas. I need to post on non-audio mail lists too
<zequence> Otherwise, we'll only have audio experts and no one who knows a thing about anything esle
<smartboyhw> zequence, good
 * smartboyhw isn't an audio expert:P
<zequence> smartboyhw: Well, you are instead more interested in all the administrative work
<smartboyhw> zequence, !?
 * smartboyhw isn't
<zequence> What do you call maintaining packages?
<zequence> Or, administering source
<zequence> It's all administration
<smartboyhw> ...
<zequence> And audio enthusiast might not know how to create a package, but knows exactly what the application should do
<zequence> If you as a packager don't know what you are packaging, you will need someone else to help you giving feedback
<zequence> Being a packager, or even a project leader is nothing more than being a secretary
<zequence> You are serving the community with your skills in administration
 * smartboyhw puts zequence in a community leadership conference alongside Jono Bacon :P
<len_1304> zequence, feel free to purge comments from seeds. At least the audio part as you work on it. I will do the desktop when you are finished.
<len_1304> I am not sure how that add all known audio/art apps to the menu got there.
<len_1304> I think the idea is to make sure if the user installs something from the repo it ends up in the correct submenu.
<zequence> len_1304: The problem I'm having is getting what that workitem is about. Is it to add an entry that has all the multimedia apps in it?
<zequence> What for?
<len_1304> It is a lot of work though as it requires installing _everything_
<len_1304> Then checking where the app ends up in the menu
<len_1304> I think the better way is to wait for it to get bugged. and then do it.
<len_1304> Call it postponed if it is raring and maybe change or remove other wise
<zequence> Ok, well. This is why I'd rather use standards, and just add variables in the menu entries, for the most part
<len_1304> Like I say we should just wait till a user installs and files a bug report.
<len_1304> Then we can make a patch for the source and run it upstream as far as someone is willing to listen
<len_1304> A patch for the *.desktop file is trivial
<zequence> Ok, was able to redo the ubuntustudio-meta source. All is working but the audio meta, but I haven't changed the seeds yet
<zequence> Our metas might get broken for a little while now
<zequence> I'll try my best to sort it out withing a couple of days
 * smartboyhw really doesn't understand why he is running for membership again...
<zequence> len_1304: Actually, what I most want to do is to have less tasks when installing from alternate media
<zequence> On some afterthought, people will probably want to at least have a plugins meta
<zequence> on top of the audio one
<zequence> I'd be willing to create a bunch of metas, but not so they appear as tasks
<zequence> Ook. Managed to change the seeds
<zequence> Had some problems building the meta source after that, but I seemed to have fixed it. The ISO will hopefully build fine tomorrow
<zequence> Now, only thing that remains to be seen is if the metas look the way they should, and if tomorrows ISO has the correct set of tasks for the installation (and if our DVD is including it all)
<zequence> len_1304: I've revived an old branch, which only had one revision before (used to create the initial meta I suppose) https://code.launchpad.net/~ubuntustudio-dev/ubuntustudio-meta/ubuntustudio-meta
<zequence> Using it to update the meta
<zequence> len_1304: And, added a build recipe for it, so we can build new versions when we want https://code.launchpad.net/~ubuntustudio-dev/+archive/ubuntustudio-meta-testing
<zequence> ..to that PPA
<zequence> problem is, the recipe seems only useful for making it build daily. There's a 7 hour wait now, and therefore, I'm building on my own PPA now just to test the meta
<zequence> micahg: I've been messing around with seeds and metas today :)
<zequence> micahg: Been testing a new meta source, and it seems to work
<zequence> The ISO remains to be seen, but I'm not expecting much trouble there
<zequence> micahg: I've put the source here https://code.launchpad.net/~ubuntustudio-dev/ubuntustudio-meta/ubuntustudio-meta
<zequence> micahg: I was hoping you could upload it. The changelog is a little weird, as it was autogenerated
<micahg> zequence: let's wait for the ISO, if it's good, I'll upload the meta
<zequence> micahg: Alright
<zequence> micahg: though, the metas won't be on it, of course
<zequence> But, I guess all the packages will install anyway
<zequence> Just not the metas themselves. 
<micahg> yeah
<zequence> Or, something
<zequence> hmm, the build just failed
<zequence> The metas are probably fine, but something with the seeds. It built the minimal system, and then - nothing
<micahg> oh, hrm, I might need to upload fixes to make the images work again, I keep forgetting what order it needs to happen in
<zequence> I didn't add anything new, that there didn't exist metas for already. But, I might have messed up the seeds file anyway
<zequence> I'd love to be able to test this locally
<zequence> When using germinate, both audio and audio-plugins were not containing much, but that much was expected
<zequence> germinate -s ubuntustudio.raring (fills your current dir up with lots of text files)
<zequence> Ah, well. Some metas have no seed files, but I wonder if that would break the build then?
<zequence> -recording and -generation metas exist for this build, but the seed files they're looking for don't exist
<zequence> so, don't know if that could cause any problems
<Len-nb> zequence, Re. seeds, audio common is required by video, you may need to add its apps there. (it supplies jack for the video apps that need it for one)
<zequence> Len-nb: Ah
<zequence> Ok, that could be it
<Len-nb> Might be good to check other deps :)
<zequence> Len-nb: nope
<zequence> I guess you mean ffmpeg-common
<Len-nb> There is at least one program that needs jack
<zequence> Then I think it's in the dependencies for that particular package
<Len-nb> xjadeo. but I don't see the dep as you say.
<zequence> It has libjack as its' dependency
#ubuntustudio-devel 2013-03-05
<zequence> k, now they're discussing whether or not have a feature freeze :P
<astraljava> What, is the non-UDS going now?
<zequence> No feature freeze before Thursday anyway
<zequence> Well, that's the pre decided date
<zequence> So, no change really
<zequence> Just the uncertainty that it may never happen
<astraljava> That's the best ever.
<zequence> astraljava: the non-UDS begins at 14.00 UTC today
<zequence> What will happen next? Ubuntu changes its name to Ubuntulene and starts wearing dresses?
<zequence> ..only that it would be surprising, nothing else
<zequence> micahg: I did a test build of the meta, and it works. The auto build recipy did not(but that seems to have been because of an old BZR version)
<zequence> hmm, actually
<zequence> I've changed the seeds since then, only slightly
<zequence> But, I'm pretty sure that change does not do anything for the meta
<zequence> Rather a question of why the build failed, and what other changes to the seed may come
<zequence> anyway, the metas are doing what they are supposed to now
<zequence> astraljava: Len-nb holstein: UDS introduction will be at #ubuntu-uds-plenary 14.00 UTC, so I guess in one hour
<zequence> And the link to the video is http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-1303/meeting/21601/introduction/
<astraljava> zequence: *smirk* Always expect the unexpected. Murphy's law, evil will prevail yadda yadda. :) I'll see if I can make it, but I could only stay for less than half an hour, gotta go play badminton.
<astraljava> Though I'd like to see sadbfl present Ubuntu on Toasters in a pretty dress. That would rock.
<zequence> That would be almost expected
<zequence> ..considering how many surprises we are getting now
<zequence> At 18.15 UTC, they discuss whether or not keep rolling release http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-1303/meeting/21683/community-1303-rolling-release/
<zequence> smartboyhw: Hi
<zequence> Well on time for the UDS introduction, I see
<smartboyhw> no
<smartboyhw> I''m on mobile
<smartboyhw> I am supposed to be revising for tests.
<smartboyhw> zequence: ^
<zequence> smartboyhw: Well, there are probably more important sessions to attend anyway
<zequence> It's just nice to be there from the start, I think
<smartboyhw> zequence: Just update us along the way. I'm off my computer for 3 days because of tests.
<zequence> smartboyhw: School tests, you mean?
<zequence> That's too bad. The videos will be available aftwerwards, so you won't miss anything
<smartboyhw> yep
<smartboyhw> UDS time!!!!
<smartboyhw> zequence: Good post.
<zequence> smartboyhw: Thanks
<zequence> Funny that my website ISP went down just as I'm actually using it
<micahg> zequence: ok, let me try to update based on your branch then
<zequence> micahg: Thanks
<zequence> micahg: I think that might be the best. Since the meta seems good, I can just work with the seeds. I might need some help debugging them. Who should I ask about that? I noticed cjwatson been helping us some on that
<zequence> I'm thinking people are rather busy right now
<micahg> I'll take a look at the logs a bit later
<zequence> The logs just end with "building dependencies..". No clue to what went wrong there, from where I stand
<micahg> hrm, might be the metas
<micahg> hrm, dvd logs look good, weird
<micahg> ah, it's 2 days old :)
<zequence> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-archive/livefs-build-logs/raring/ubuntustudio-dvd/20130305/livecd-20130305-amd64.out
<zequence> So, all the packages are rebuilt for each DVD build?
<micahg> no, but the dependency tree has to make sense
<zequence> hmm, ok
<micahg> zequence: FTW, fiddling with the seeds won't help if what it's pulling from the archive doesn't install together
<zequence> micahg: Ok. I was doing that a bit, but since you mentioned the upload, my latest commit should be ok for the metas
#ubuntustudio-devel 2013-03-06
<zequence> We've been talking about making all our social channels + website have the same kind of look
<zequence> I was going to just add the logo and icon, just as they are in the website, but suitably layed out for G+ and FB
<zequence> Made it with a small twist https://www.facebook.com/Ubuntustudio
<zequence> https://plus.google.com/b/102125777892703446963/102125777892703446963/posts
<zequence> Did the work with Inkscape this time. Can't really work with text using Gimp
<micahg> zequence: your branch started with a very old version and has quite a few differences with the current version
<zequence> micahg: Well, is there a new bzr branch then?
<micahg> zequence: we don't usually use branches for the metas
<zequence> micahg: I just updated the one that existed with the existing meta, and then did the changes
<micahg> right, but that old branch had the old arches enabled
<zequence> Has this something to do with how bzr works?
<micahg> if you have a debdiff for d/control, and any config files, that's enough for me
<micahg> no, it's that the archive version is authoratative
<micahg> and updating a branch to a new version won't delete old files
<zequence> ok. I'll do a debdiff then.
<zequence> micahg: I replaced the debian/control and update.cfg. Now I'm doing an ./update. After that edit the changelog. Then just debdiff?
<micahg> zequence: yeah, that should be fine
<zequence> micahg: I get a bunch of files that end with .old
<micahg> hrm
<micahg> did you cd into the new dir?
<zequence> ah, I just needed to build the source
<zequence> Never did a debdiff before either
<zequence> micahg: debdiff the .dsc files?
<micahg> yes
<zequence> micahg: This ok? http://paste.ubuntu.com/5589254/
<micahg> zequence: well, a couple notes, please add a note about fixing the recommends for audio-plugins in debian/control, please leave transitional packages for the old metas with a dependency on the new one (versioned breaks/replaces should be fine), is audio-plugins meant to change at all?
<micahg> actually, you might not need any breaks/replaces since these are just metapackages
<micahg> the empty packages are to support upgrades (which actually might not be needed anymore now that update manage will remove packages...)
<zequence> micahg: recommends for audio-plugins? I don't think I altered anything for it in debian/control.
<micahg> you fixed an outstanding bug that I've skipped over due to laziness
<zequence> Yeah?
<micahg> line 272
<zequence> micahg: Ah, right
<zequence> I forgot about that. I don't know what the best way would be to go about t
<zequence> making changes, and actually remembering them
<micahg> just list it in debian/control, * Fixed recommends for audio-plugins package to actually work
<micahg> or something
<zequence> micahg: http://paste.ubuntu.com/5589282/
<micahg> zequence: if audio-plugins is a depends of audio, does it make sense to keep it separate?
<zequence> micahg: Yes. Some people will only want to install ardour and a bunch of plugins
<micahg> also, can you leave -generation and -recording as transitional packages?
<zequence> micahg: What would they do?
<len_1304> make upgrades work?
<micahg> depend on ubuntustudio-audio
<micahg> yeah, make upgrades work
<zequence> In case someone only installed -generation or -recording, and with an upgrade, those metas would disappear?
<micahg> yeah
<zequence> I don't know. It would be nice if one could script that somehow and let the user make a choice
<zequence> Otherwise they get a bunch of packages they didn't want to install
<len_1304> zequence, at this point it doesn't matter
<len_1304> they can only upgrade from 11.10 and up anyway.
<len_1304> Since live the user has all of the metas installed..
<len_1304> *live DVD
<zequence> len_1304: Those who installed using the live DVD, yes
<zequence> But not those who used any other flavor, or derivative, or alternate CD to install
<len_1304> It's all we really offer.
<len_1304> But if we are going to only one meta aren't we already making that choice?
<zequence> Users don't like when you make choices for them, but if you can ask, that would be ok, I think
<len_1304> How many audio metas do we have?
<len_1304> (since your change)
<zequence> Two. -audio and -audio-plugins
<zequence> -recording and -generation are merged
<micahg> zequence: it's standard to upgrade someone to where something moved, if it didn't include the old stuff, I'd tend to agree
<len_1304> Right, so you have made a choice for the users that they can no longer have just recording.
<zequence> I think of this a bit like changing user setings. An upgrade doesn't do that
<len_1304> plugin will stay separate, and recording and generation will depend on the new audio
<zequence> It's not like the system is left broken, if the meta disappears
<micahg> it makes sure that people that just wanted those tools, still get the meta with those tools
<micahg> if they had -desktop installed, it'll pull in the new stuff anyways
<len_1304> An upgrade can remove packages if they don't exist in the version and they did in the last
<len_1304> *new version
<zequence> Well, I'm not going to put up a big fight over it. I can add the two metas, as transitional. I really need to learn more about how this all works anyway
<len_1304> micahg, did settings ever get done?
<len_1304> (released)
<micahg> len_1304: no, I got distracted, let me do that in a bit
<len_1304> Ok, If all else fails I can put a bug report in that the new icon package doesn't work.
<len_1304> (it looks like FF is back on)
<zequence> len_1304: What makes you say that?
<zequence> I mean, I think it was always on, just that we haven't yet been confirmed on that it won't be on
<zequence> Greg KH posted a funny thing on G+ the other day. Someone told him, now that dbus is being implemented into the kernel, he'd be using BSD from now on. Shortly, a BSD hacker told him they probably want to do that as well
<zequence> I mean, implement dbus into their kernel
<zequence> micahg: Third time's the charm :) http://paste.ubuntu.com/5589323/
<zequence> I'm not really against having even more metas than we have now, btw. I think initially, my goal was to remove the tasks for -generation and -recording
<zequence> Also, I don't find those two categories well named, but maybe that's just me
<zequence> I'd rather have -sequencers, -soft-instruments, or something in that fashion
<zequence> -audio I think should contain a polished set. so, if we have metas that would include more than -audio would, the other -metas wouldn't be preinstalled
<micahg> zequence: my other question is since audio depends on audio-plugins, does it make sense to keep them separate (or should that be a recommends?
<zequence> micahg: -audio should be the full package, but -plugins you should be able to install without having to install anything else
<micahg> zequence: you might want to make the description clearer about the purpose of the package than (-plugins)
<zequence> micahg: I don't understand. I haven't touched -plugins. I've simply merged -recording and -generation into -audio
<micahg> zequence: sure, this is something extra
<micahg> I didn't understand the purpose of the plugins package and i'm guess most other don't either
<zequence> Well, there is a good purpose
<micahg> apt-cache show ubuntustudio-audio-plugins | grep -A4 Description-en
<micahg> Description-en: Ubuntu Studio audio plugins Package
<micahg>  Ubuntu Studio is a multimedia creation flavor of Ubuntu for the
<micahg>  Linux audio, video, and graphic enthusiast or professional.
<micahg>  .
<micahg>  A collection of LADSPA, LV2, and DSSI plugins.
<micahg> doesn't tell me much about the purpose, just that it's a collection
<zequence> I think if you're into audio, you'll understand what they are for
<zequence> I'm a little tired now. It's past 3 am. Gotta get up early, and I can't really think straight right now. So either this will have to wait, or we just go with what we have
<zequence> I think both holstein and len_1304 would be able to say something useful about this
<zequence> gn folks
<micahg> see http://www.debian.org/doc/debian-policy/ch-binary.html#s-descriptions
<micahg> zequence: sure, I can upload what you have, would be nice if someone could improve the descriptions
<zequence> micahg: I'll have a look tomorrow. Thanks, btw, for all your help, and comments. Makes a huge difference
<micahg> zequence: meta and livecd-rootfs uploaded, so hopefully there will be images later today
<zequence> micahg: Thanks
<zequence> We're getting a lot of interest as soon as we post something on any of the social medias. We've gone from reaching about 300 people to 1600 people of fb the last week or so
<zequence> We should keep it up and post at least something once a week
<astraljava> Good job guys!
<zequence-s> I might have to take credit for the past postings, but it would be nice if we could get some kind of routine going with more posters :)
<smartboyhw> hello
<smartboyhw> (smartboyhw) 7/3 Chinese 8/3 Chinese History 11/3 Chemistry 14/3 English 18/3 Physics 20/3 Geography 26/3 Biology
<zequence-s> test dates?
<smartboyhw> zequence-s: That's how many tests I''m having in March...
<smartboyhw> BAH
<zequence-s> Fun fun
<smartboyhw> zequence-s not fun
<zequence-s> How many pages do you need to read for all those tests combined?
<smartboyhw> zequence-s: 300?
<zequence-s> smartboyhw, That's not too bad
<zequence-s> I'm doing about 50 pages a day
<zequence-s> Well, not for the past week
<zequence-s> But, from now on
<smartboyhw> zequence-s bah that basically means I am missing UDS I might even not be able to join Beta 1 + 2 testing
<smartboyhw> zequence-s when are Betas 1 and 2?
<zequence-s> smartboyhw, We will only particapate in the final beta
<zequence-s> the ISO is not building right now, but as soon as it is, and we have decided that we aren't adding any more features, we should check for bugs
<zequence-s> Actually, I want to go through the seeds a bit today, and see if we should add some apps. Like guitarix
<smartboyhw> I know it's not working. zequence-s make sure you do it before Feature Freeze tmr.
<zequence-s> That's the plan
<smartboyhw> ;-)
<zequence-s> hmm, we do have guitarix. I think I'll check plugins a bit then
<zequence-s> actually, it looks pretty ok
<zequence-s> Nothing critical missing from what I can see
<smartboyhw> good
<zequence-s> Len-nb, Anything more you would like to do before FF?
<smartboyhw> len_1304, ^
<zequence-s> smartboyhw, He might be sleeping
<smartboyhw> zequence-s he should be 
<zequence-s> It's fairly early in the morning over there
<smartboyhw> yep
<zequence-s> here's a pic that shows what happens when you post on our fb page http://imagepaste.nullnetwork.net/viewimage.php?id=5762
<zequence-s> Just shows that it's important to be active in the media
<zequence-s> Let's see if Canonical will have the balls to go with the rolling release. Or, if they just wait until after this release to try. I mean, they would have basically 6 months having a go at it
<len_1304> zequence-s, getting our -settings released as is would do it for me
<zequence-s> Len-nb, I feel fine with what we have too
<len_1304> Though I will put it as a bug if it doesn't.
<zequence-s> Let's hope the ISO starts building soon, so we can try it out then
<len_1304> (new icon theme doesn't work
<zequence-s> Still pending upload?
<len_1304> I haven't looked this morning, but ti was still waiting last night
<len_1304> To be fair, getting ISOs again was a more important use of micahg's time
<len_1304> As soon as that is released and I can confirm it works, I will start on the settings manager.
<zequence-s> Len-nb, Oh, right. We really should do that today.
<zequence-s> Probably not lethal if we miss FF deadline
<zequence-s> But, better we have the features in, and then do debuggin, if needed
<zequence-s> And the ISO can fail to build too. As long as we aren't making it fail after FF
<zequence-s> not sure how all of that works yet
<zequence-s> Seems like there's more involved than I realized
<len_1304> The features are in...I can manually enable the icon theme. but it is a bug that it isn't by default.
<zequence-s> documentation really sucks in some areas
<zequence-s> ah, ok
<len_1304> The settings manager changes will come next release.
<zequence-s> Len-nb, Why wait? Does it require that much work?
<zequence-s> also, many people have wished for the open as admin script
<zequence-s> It's a bit late to start adding stuff like that
<zequence-s> But, there's also no reason to wait
<len_1304> FF is tomorrow? I could start, but not finish.
<len_1304> If I start messing with settings right now, what I did months ago might not get into this release.
<zequence-s> We need to get it uploaded of course
<zequence-s> Since it's not a high prio for anyone else but us, it's not as crucial security wise
<zequence-s> Strictly speaking, we should have all feature uploads done today
<zequence-s> Then, if there are bugs, we fix them, and do new uploads
<zequence-s> I'm thinking we should start rolling our own packages completely, and have people sponsor our uploads
<len_1304> well thats the only one for me, it finishes all my BP work items
<len_1304> Ya, I am beginning to think that too.
<len_1304> At least the 32/64 bit agnostic packages.
<zequence-s> I'll get the source for default settings, and have a loog
<len_1304> Thanks, I have to go to work.
<zequence-s> see you
<zequence-s> Len-nb, I've uploaded the settings to ppa:zequence/ubuntustudio-dev. The meta is there too (a different version than what is being uploaded), so if you install, do:
<zequence-s> sudo add-apt-repository ppa:zequence/ubuntustudio-dev && sudo apt-get update && sudo apt-get install only-upgrade ubuntustudio-default-settings
<zequence-s> Don't ever trust my spelling, btw
<scott-work> good morning everyone
<scott-work> what do people think about the rolling release concept?
<scott-work> i ask because david jordan (of novacut fame) was asking me about our thoughts
<scott-work> he linked jason's g+ post: https://plus.google.com/u/0/114471118004229223857/posts/PNJGWmqv6Qe
<falktx> heya
<falktx> I've been reading the last news about the whole Mir thing
<falktx> and Canonical again brings bombs like this...
<falktx> it makes me think that they have even other things planned that are not telling anyone
<falktx> scott-work: I guess rolling release will be discussed internally at Canonical and some random day in the future announced out of the blue
<falktx> very likely when least expected... :(
<falktx> or maybe I'm being too pessimistic
<micahg> rolling release has been discussed on the ubuntu-devel list for the last week and the discussion is likely to continue for a while
<micahg> scott-work: I think a regular release with a shorter lifespan might be interesting, I think a rolling release is a cool idea, but we need to ramp up quality a lot more to have it
 * falktx has been considering switching to arch
<micahg> did anyone want the new blender in raring?
<zequence> micahg: sync from debian? I haven't heard any requests, but I'm sure people will want it latest
<micahg> zequence: yeah, I can sync it (if it builds)
<micahg> mfv just uploaded 2.66a
<zequence> micahg: Any chance of uploading -default-settings today? :)
<zequence> I just had a loot at it
<zequence> I think we did want one more change, but I'm not sure we'll have time to do it today
<zequence> it was that settings manager thing in the menu
<micahg> zequence: yeah
<micahg> oh, hrm, blender is distro patched?
<zequence> scott-work: I've been posting a bit about the suggested changes http://ubuntustudio.org/2013/03/rolling-release-mir/
<zequence> scott-work: I think a general opinion is that rolling release needs to be at least somewhat conservative than the development release, but I haven't yet seen any clear plans on how to do that
<zequence> somewhat +more conservative
<zequence> falktx: Big changes, yes. But all of them things that many people want. Especially a replacement for X (from what one reads). 
<micahg> not exactly, but there needs to be at least part of the rolling release that is, in theory, we can have both stable and unstable in rolling at the same time
<scott-work> zequence: btw, i like the "contribute" page on the website :)
<falktx> zequence: big changes are fine. developing them in secret is not
<falktx> specially for a big distro like Ubuntu
<zequence> scott-work: Thanks. I also redid "about", but will redo it again. And have a look at our wiki. Been doing a lot of changes http://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio
<zequence> micahg: I meant, comparing the current development release with a future rolling release
<scott-work> micahg: one of the concerns of people like david jordan and jason derose is parallel support of many, many releases, so a shorter lifespan seems to be a good aspect
<zequence> All though, if Canonicals main objective is to just drop the interim releases and keep a continuous development release, it would seem logical to me to create another layer that would be more conservatively synced from the "development release"
<scott-work> micahg: i wonder if we might do like fedora with different repos then? isn't the non-rawhide repo (i.e. the "stable" one) a rolling release as well?
<micahg> idk
<scott-work> and then rawhide is unstable and rolling as well
<zequence> Debian has testing, unstable and experimental
<micahg> my idea would be to use -updates for unstable and the release pocket for stable with a britney migration similar to the Debian unstable -> testing transition in between
<zequence> scott-work: I've gotten so far with the wiki now, that I felt better not waste any more time, and start fishing for volunteers. 
<zequence> I put a couple of posts up, but so far, only one or two serious answers
<zequence> ..though, one could see form fb statistics, that people liked to share that kind of posts
<zequence> scott-work: Also, what did you think of the theme change I did for fb, and G+?. I was initially just aiming at unifying with the site, as we had been talking about, as well as adding the slogan "linux for creative humans". But, saw the opportunity to add a bit of charm to it
<zequence> I'd rather have a graphical artist redo those, and make them awesome, but as we don't have one, I just thought, better get the job done
<zequence> We should really try to get someone to help us with the art but
<zequence> bit*
<zequence> wth
<zequence> Just opened the G+ page, and what does it say? "Cover Photos just got bigger"!
<zequence> Thanks G+
<zequence> Now I have to redo it again
<zequence> Well, one can wait
<zequence> I'm not at all sure those G+ covers will be very long lived
<zequence> Once you change it, it takes up the whole damn page
<zequence> lightning talks just starting http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-1303/meeting/21665/lightning-talks/
<zequence> After that the Xubuntu session
<falktx> UDS is live *right now* ?
<falktx> hm firefox can't play the video... :S
<micahg> len_1304: ah, thanks for doing most of the merge for 0.40 -settings, I fixed the timestamp and tagged it, now I just have to review the changes before I upload
<scott-work> zequence: LOL @ cover photos
<scott-work> zequence: i haven't looked at the FB page in a while. i'll have to do that at home as we block it at work. granted i don't usually use FB anyways
<scott-work> zequence: serendipitously  i just saw this : http://xubuntu.org/contribute/
<scott-work> xubuntu then has subpages for specifics
<scott-work> like this: http://xubuntu.org/contribute/qa/
<scott-work> i like that a lot
<scott-work> zequence: i like the g+ page picture, probably the best we have done so far
<zequence> scott-work: It's very bare (g+). The format now is a 1920x1080 wallpaper basically
<zequence> I regret being so hasty to edit looks on pages
<zequence> The fb cover is badly done. The blue text needs to be separated a bit
<zequence> micahg: Seems like the build failed again. Same problem as last time basically https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-studio-devel/2013-March/004908.html
<zequence> falktx: You can't get the video to play?
<zequence> It's regular youtube
<micahg> zequence: I'll have to see if I missed something
<falktx> zequence: wrong codec, firefox doesn't load it with html5
<falktx> I guess it needs flash... errrg
<zequence> micahg: I'm highly suspecting the seeds now  lp:~ubuntustudio-dev/ubuntu-seeds/ubuntustudio.raring
<micahg> ok, I'll have to look after this hangout is done
<zequence> yep
<zequence> falktx: Not much left of the UDS this time: http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-1303/2013-03-06/
<zequence> falktx: Currently, Xubuntu having a session about rolling http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-1303/meeting/21666/community-xubuntu-contingencies/
<zequence> falktx: All the videos are available, so just look in each session
<falktx> later
<falktx> too much stuff to do, I'm kinda losing interest on Ubuntu
<zequence> falktx: You don't like Debian, Ubuntu.. Is it going to be Arch and Gentoo for you?
<falktx> not sure, I'm gattering user opinions now
<falktx> http://forum.linuxmusicians.com/viewtopic.php?f=47&t=10762
<zequence> falktx: So far, no decisions have been made on rolling release. the community is involved in discussions, and so can you. MIR is the kind of thing people want, but it won't replace X, just that the community will need to maintain it. Or, just import from debian. What has changed, other than time moves forward, and things change?
<falktx> what hasn't changed is Canonical bringing bombs like that and doing development in closed doors
<falktx> if they do this, they will do other similar things
<falktx> I wouldn't be surprised to see a Qt5 fork some time in the future
<zequence> IMO Canonical have the freedom to develop what they want, just like any developers. Granted, if they start making the system libraries customized in a way which wouldn't allow for the upstream original libraries to coexist, that would be bad
<zequence> And, that the system libraries would be incompatible with upstream applications
<falktx> I'm ok with they developing whatever it is, as long as it's announced first
<falktx> or done in the open
<zequence> falktx: So, isn't that exactly what happened now?
<falktx> mir, they developed for almost a year, and want to replace X later
<falktx> there's a reason why most kde devs are not in Ubuntu
<zequence> So what? X won't disappear
<falktx> Canonical seems to want to bring DRM to Ubuntu too
<zequence> Can't say I know that problem fully
<falktx> I don't like that
<scott-work> falktx brings up a good point that i've thinking about for a while...canonical is _very_ disruptive with ubuntu's development
<falktx> I'm glad I'm not alone on this
<scott-work> the cadence discussion years back between distros, bazaar, MIR, gnome, etc
<falktx> ubuntu's future is very uncertain
<zequence> I don't agree fully on that. They are a big player, among very small ones. When they decide to do something, it has a bigger impact
<scott-work> i understand why people like jan wilderboer and fab schershel give canonical/ubuntu/sabdfl grief
<falktx> zequence: the problem is that Canonical has a bad habit of doing this kind of things, for some time now
<falktx> NIH syndrome
<zequence> There's no way to get forward quickly, if not moving quickly
<zequence> The community is very adaptable, and if MIR is a good window system, every one will want to support that
<scott-work> frankly, however, i support canonical's development. i think they are evolving and want to do amazing things. these things most likely either couldn't be done or done in a timely fashion otherwise
<falktx> zequence: they could have told everyone that they were doing MIR, no?
<falktx> what's the excuse for it?
<scott-work> zequence: but i feel canonical is pushing some community members out while expecting others (different types) to come in with the new vision
<zequence> falktx: There's more than enough time to adapt. MIR is scheduled to be fully in use for 14.04. X won't disappear.
<zequence> I've never thought Ubuntu is the best distro to be in, if you have the most pure ideals
<falktx> zequence: but what's next? no one can know if Canonical for example decides to drop support for some community variants 
<zequence> falktx: If they do that, it will be very problematic for them
<falktx> do they care?
<zequence> I don't care if they do
<falktx> once they reach mobile, there's no one stopping them
<falktx> if Canonical gets profitable, they have no more reasons to support community versions
<zequence> As long as it's free software
<zequence> falktx: The community might need to change
<zequence> falktx: If Ubuntu finds a way to become really big, that probably means things *have* to change
<falktx> and then so does UbuntuStudio and others
<falktx> US is basically doing whatever Canonical wants with no say on the matter
<zequence> That is not true at all
<zequence> And, frankly, I feel you are being paranoid without a reason
<falktx> I'm been cautious
<falktx> making a distro is a lot of work
<zequence> Ubuntu Studio is in no way governed by Canonical
<zequence> And never will be
<falktx> it's a canonical brand
<zequence> That may be so, but that doesn't change the nature of the relationship
<zequence> It's just a name
<falktx> I'm still worried neverthless
<zequence> Worry makes you make bad decisions, and treat people with suspicion
<falktx> like I'm walking on a mine field, don't knowing what could explode next. that's ubuntu for me
<zequence> We're not quite there yet, I would say. We're rather in the position where people are so stuck in their own worlds, and ways of thinking, that when Ubuntu takes one step forwards, it's like your universe collapses, and all you knew is suddently not what you thought it was
<zequence> It is quite a normal reaction
<zequence> But, things do change
<falktx> well, I'm not sure I trust Canonical anymore
<falktx> but that's me
<zequence> I don't trust anyone. There's no reason to
<zequence> I'm not seeing any indication of there not being the same possibility for communities to work close to Canonical, so far. But, I'm quite sure the relationship we have with them now will change, if Ubuntu gets very big
<zequence> One simple reason might be, that there will be new resources to fill the work that we are doing now, and that much of what we do now would not be needed anymore
<zequence> Different OSs on Ubuntu phone?
<zequence> Maybe, but not the way it's now
<micahg> falktx: it seems like a lot of things happened at once which made people feel uneasy, after being in the hangout with Jono and Rick Spencer, I'm convinced that Canonical's policy is the same that it's always been, which is to be a member of the community that tries to lead the way within the structure of the community that it's a part of
<scott-work> if ubuntu goes rolling release, i wonder what options that leaves for us, i.e. do we have to use a rolling release as well?
<micahg> well, you don't have to advertise regular users to use it, but the only "releases" would be the LTS ones
<zequence> For us a rolling release would be the least worrysome
<zequence> It's much worse for the other flavors
<zequence> People can always use our metas no matter which system they are on
<zequence> And from what I've seen so far, it could work fairly well
<zequence> Just that, even if Unity has been stable the last 6 months, doesn't mean all of the desktops have been
<zequence> I would suspect mostly because people take less care with updates during development release
<zequence> Since you have time to test things, and fix bugs
<zequence> If Xubuntu doesn't go rolling release, that would be problematic for us though
<micahg> well, if the archive is rolling, it's rolling
<scott-work> micahg: that was kinda my concern ;)
<zequence> micahg: the metas seem fine anyway
<zequence> I'm thinking I've just messed up with the seeds somehow
<zequence> Probably something obvious for someone who knows that stuff better than I do
<micahg> zequence: I didn't add audio-plugins as a task
<zequence> micahg: So, that is not done in seeds?
<zequence> If so, I think I know what's wrong (maybe)
<zequence> Or, not..
<zequence> Where are the tasks created?
<micahg> they're added in livecd-rootfs
<zequence> micahg: Cause, I left out all the Task* stuff from the audio-plugins seed
<micahg> I guess I can add audio-plugins and reupload
<micahg> hrm
<zequence> micahg: No, that's fine
<zequence> I think we only need audio
<zequence> micahg: But, what would be great is if you could add desktop
<zequence> That has been missing for a while now
<micahg> to the rootfS?
<zequence> micahg: Yes. I assume that makes the task appear in the alternate install?
<micahg> no
<zequence> Oh, yeah
<zequence> livecd-rootfs
<zequence> There's another one too,right?
<zequence> micahg: We of course want audio-plugins to be a part of the default installation, if that is what livecd-rootfs provides
<micahg> it should get pulled in by ubuntustudio-audio though
<zequence> ok
<micahg> oh, nm, it
<micahg> s in there
<micahg> live-build/auto/config:	ubuntustudio-dvd)
<micahg> live-build/auto/config:		add_task install minimal standard ubuntustudio-desktop ubuntustudio-audio ubuntustudio-font-meta ubuntustudio-graphics ubuntustudio-audio-plugins ubuntustudio-video ubuntustudio-publishing ubuntustudio-photography
<zequence> Ok, looks good
<zequence> micahg: So, there are really two things I'm looking to fix. One is of course having the DVD to build. The other, to get -desktop as a part of the tasks for the alternate CD. That is what I thought was done in seeds. Is that correct?
<micahg> no, I think that's tasksel
<zequence> ah, there's a package called that
<zequence> Will look that up
<zequence> hmm, it's there. Wonder why it has not shown up in the task selection then, during install
<zequence> Maybe it appeared after last update
<zequence> Today..
<zequence> I'll check a daily later to see
<zequence> micahg: So, any chance you could spot what's wrong with our seeds?
<len_1304> zequence, lots of metas got updated :)
<zequence> len_1304: Well, cjwatson went ahead and updated tasksel for both us and edubuntu. perhaps from talking with micahg 
<len_1304> They are showing up on my daily update.
<zequence> tasksel is apparently a package. I didnt' know that before. It uses seeds to create its contents
<len_1304> Is there a different one for each flavour?
<zequence> No. All the flavors are configure in the same file
<zequence> Then a script looks up the seeds, and auto fills a dir with files
<len_1304> I thought so, but wasn't sure.
<zequence> The dirs for where the seeds is located there too
<zequence> I mean, URLs
<zequence> Nope, still not showing
<micahg> zequence: I can have a look in a bit
<zequence> ubuntustudio-desktop I mean, in tasksel. All the other tasks do. Audio even, which I recently did. I'll try installing
 * micahg has to run out now
<zequence> micahg: See you later man
<zequence> I chose audio only, to see what happens :). Not sure what it will install other than the audio deps
<len_1304> zequence, re:wayland/mir is there somewhere I can read some stuff about them?
<zequence> len_1304: This was released when MIR was announced https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MirSpec
<zequence> Don't know much about Wayland, but apparently, many people have changed their minds about it
<len_1304> Big Linux distros are becoming more consumer oriented... as opposed to developer/hobbiest oriented.
<len_1304> There is nothing wrong with that.
<len_1304> But, a lot of things that Linux supports very well right now are tending to be compromised to do it.
<len_1304> Development work or content creation, have different requirements, but are only a small part of the user spectrum.
<len_1304> For all many people have dreamed of Linux taking over the computer world, I don't think many realized it would be by catering to the masses :)
<zequence> I think there's a good chance Ubuntu will be much less a Debian derivative in the future, all though, as long as the community can maintain their own packages, that just means more options
<len_1304> There are things I have in mind that would be very useful to a few people, I just want to see if these X replacements will let me do them.
<zequence> len_1304: What sort of things?
<len_1304> Things that use server client stuff. Running an appp on one machine that displays on another.
<len_1304> It seems to me that the server/client part of X is what most people want to switch for because that causes the most problems for speed.
<zequence> Woa, cool
<zequence> First time I boot a new install of Ubuntu Studio raring for a while
<zequence> Installing the audio task from a mini install also installed the desktop
<zequence> Still, we probably want the desktop tast there too :P
<len_1304> I think MIR or wayland are not so much a way forward as a means to a different end. Also useful.
<len_1304> Installing the desktop task? I would have thought that was not what you would want.
<len_1304> ie. someone has kde and just wants audio.
<zequence> Well, not sure if the desktop installs if you also install another desktop
<zequence> it's not the same as with the metas
<len_1304> Ok, gotta go for a bit... C U in a while.
<zequence> ok, bye
<zequence> What I would like to have now is my own build server, so I could do some experimentation. That would actually help a lot
<zequence> Would also be useful for not just Ubuntu Studio, but anyone else who wanted to automate ISO building for custom work
<zequence> So, everything seems to work, but our ISO build
<zequence> I'm going to set up my own build server. what the heck. Then I can build my own custom releases, if I want to
<zequence> Found this quite helpful http://www.mythbuntu.org/development/developer-cheatsheet
<zequence> Going to add one of those to our wiki once I get the hang ot if
<zequence> of it*
#ubuntustudio-devel 2013-03-07
<len_1304> zequence, some of MIR's targets seem mutually exclusive.
<len_1304> in particular the Test-Driven and Versatile & Flexible sections.
<len_1304> MIR seems as if it would start from phone/pad usability and expand to fit desktop needs... with desktop needs being "dumbed down" if needed to fit.
<len_1304> It certainly fits a consumer oriented user base.
<len_1304> The MIR based system would have no VTs and would take over from startup.
<len_1304> In other words the first thing the user would see Is MIR based. No Plymouth or lightdm and in the long term no grub as we know it... or at least the ability to boot without grub if there are no other OS on the system... for OEM use.
<len_1304> This is something I would be very happy with if I was developing a smart phone or tablet. Or even thinking of preloading a desktop with.
<len_1304> With respect to the time line, I suspect the 13.10 schedule will be relatively close and that the 14.04 is much underestimated.
<len_1304> The wayland page (wiki) made a whole lot more sense, but that may be because there has been development for a number of years already.
<len_1304> zequence, ya, I know, it's 2am for you :)
<micahg> Len-nb: zequence  -settings uploaded, will have to look at the ISO failure in the morning, also I filed Bug #1151310 since it's too late at night for me to worry about udev rules, we should fix it for raring though
<ubottu> bug 1151310 in ubuntustudio-default-settings (Ubuntu Raring) "udev rule in /etc" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1151310
<micahg> Len-nb: I was wondering why those desktop files didn't exist in their own packages (or do they and you're overriding)?
 * micahg goes to sleep
<Len-nb> I guess I won't be able to answer...
<Len-nb> The desktop files are because the originals have "no show" in them
<micahg> you can leave me a message :)
<micahg> Len-nb: umm..for hdspmixer, the only difference is the Icon
<Len-nb> micahg, There is a real icon, I don't know why alsa uses another
<micahg> get alsa fixed?
<Len-nb> Long term yes
<micahg> (not now obviously)
<Len-nb> hexter had no desktop file
<Len-nb> (or it was broken)
<micahg> if it's broke, let's fix?
<Len-nb> Yup
<micahg> hexter is uploaded by quadrispro (alessio), so it should be no problem to fix
<Len-nb> OK
<Len-nb> I have redone the icon for that one as it was a pixmap with no alpha channel
<micahg> let's push to Debian at least, hopefully all the way upstream
<Len-nb> hexter is welcome to my "artwork"
<micahg> http://dssi.sourceforge.net/hexter.html introduction section has contact info
<Len-nb> I will work on a patch and send it to them.
<micahg> thanks
 * micahg prefers not bikeshedding where possible
<Len-nb> This stuff is still somewhat new to me. 
<micahg> Len-nb: you're doing great!
<micahg> Len-nb: I didn't have to fix a thing with the -settings upload other than the timestamp on the import from 0.40
<Len-nb> I try to pick up loose ends
<micahg> I'm sorry for taking so long with that
<Len-nb> I'll test it when next we have an ISO
<micahg> well, if I have time before 18:00 UTC, I'll try to fix it, I need to get catfish uploaded and maybe gmusicbrowser as well
<Len-nb> catfish is on our need list too
<Len-nb> The new one looks really nice
<micahg> well, it's seeded now, so once it's uploaded, you'll pick it up
<Len-nb> That was the idea :)
<zequence> len_1304: Did you have a look at the bug? https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ubuntustudio-default-settings/+bug/1151310
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1151310 in ubuntustudio-default-settings (Ubuntu Raring) "udev rule in /etc" [High,Triaged]
<zequence> I think actually there was a change in policy for this a couple of years ago
<zequence> Anyway, easy enough to fix
<zequence> len_1304: I'd like to reorganize the blueprints for next cycle - however that will look like
<zequence> len_1304: Anything you feel could be done better?
<zequence> len_1304: This is what I got right now https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/Blueprints/DevelopmentReleaseTemplate
<zequence> Put up a page on building our dvd locally https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/SetupLocalIsoBuildServer
<zequence> We should take advantage of that and do testing locally now and then
<smartboyhw> zequence: XD I want one
<zequence> Right now raring is not building, and I did this to be able to debug
<smartboyhw> good
<zequence> ..in case you try to build and find that it's not working, I mean
 * smartboyhw will try it tmr
<zequence> Don't try to build in an encrypted folder
<zequence> There are a few things that work badly from encrypted folders/partitions
<zequence> Like Virtualbox drives
<smartboyhw> yeah.
 * smartboyhw never uses it.
<smartboyhw> Still on mobile, can't do KDE packaging....
<zequence> All right. cjwatson fixed our ISO problem. Should hopefully build now
<smartboyhw> YAY zequence
<zequence> Seems to be working a lot better now
<smartboyhw> zequence \o/
<len_1304> zequence, I will fix the settings tonight.
<zequence> len_1304: To get the settings manager in?
<len_1304> no to fix the bug above
<smartboyhw> len_1304 what bug?
<len_1304> bug 1151310
<ubottu> bug 1151310 in ubuntustudio-default-settings (Ubuntu Raring) "udev rule in /etc" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1151310
<smartboyhw> ok
<smartboyhw> zequence, len_1304: I thought it strange that ~ubuntustudio-dev isn't in ~ubuntu-dev. Other flavours do it, and you get upload rights.
<zequence> smartboyhw: It's not strange. And we will need to earn upload rights
<zequence> Could be we need to reorganize that team when we get there
<smartboyhw> zequence it's strange that it hasn't been done for YEARS
<zequence> Perhaps that was never an ambition
<zequence> Studio is a bit different from the others
<zequence> In some way you could say we are more users than hackers usually
<zequence> I started doing this to solve problems with my Ubuntu Studio install
<zequence> That's how things go
<smartboyhw> Ok. But we should now. We can't solely depend on micahg....
<smartboyhw> He has Xubuntu to work on
<zequence> That is something I've been saying for a while now
<zequence> And that is why I'm suggesting we start rolling our own packages from now on
<smartboyhw> zequence +1
<zequence> That is why I'm setting up my own build system
<zequence> That is why I'm working so hard on the wiki
<smartboyhw> Ah..... 
<len_1304> zequence, smartboyhw I have asigned myself to the bug above.
<smartboyhw> len_1304 please work on it;-)
<len_1304> Time for work... Bye all
<smartboyhw> bye bye
<zequence> len_1304: I don't think it's a good idea to add readmes in the udev dir. Better put comments in the udev file instead
<smartboyhw> zequence: What's the process of getting the dev team -> upload rights?
<zequence> smartboyhw: That is not easily done. First of all, not everyone in the dev team should have upload rights. Then, if we have a team for handling upload rights, someone trustworthy needs to be admin of that team, and it's not sure that would be anyone in our dev team.
<smartboyhw> zequence: Admin = Ubuntu DMB I think
<zequence> The primiary problem right now is not the dev team, but for someone to get upload rights
<smartboyhw> zequence I would rather apply for upload rights for Kubuntu...
<zequence> Makes sense, since you are packaging for Ubuntu, not us
<smartboyhw> lok
<smartboyhw> lol
<zequence> I mean Kubuntu
<smartboyhw> zequence: Well I can but you guys don't want me to mess it up so....
<zequence> smartboyhw: It's not about that
<smartboyhw> zequence: About what then?
<zequence> It's better someone handles something that they are interested in working on. Not just administering/maintaining
<zequence> We aren't merely maintaining our packages. We are developing the source
<smartboyhw> zequence: I would rather pick the seeds +metas :-P
<zequence> When we develop the source, it is based on something we want to achieve
<zequence> At this point, none of us is qualified to even be a mentor. It is better me and len get there first, and then, we can mentor other packagers/developers
<smartboyhw> zequence: Yep-ee
<zequence> smartboyhw: You aren't suggesting any changes, or having ideas about what we should do, since you are not really into the multimedia bit. You're just interested in working with the packages
<zequence> Which is fine, I guess
<zequence> It'll come
<smartboyhw> ok
<zequence> The situation for Kubuntu is completely different
<zequence> They are maintaining lots of packages that they more or less just make sure don't break the system
<zequence> They also have qualified people working on them
<smartboyhw> zequence by multimedia bit what do you mean?
 * smartboyhw thought zequence saying "qualified people" it doesn't include smartboyhw
<zequence> smartboyhw: You aren't doing any of the workflows that we are developing yourself. Me, I'm a classically educated musician, and have been using computers with music for more than 10 years
<zequence> smartboyhw: I wasn't saying you are incompetent
<zequence> I was saying we are
<zequence> Which is half true, at this point
<smartboyhw> ok
<zequence> While Kubuntu devs are competent. They have more skills and experience there
<zequence> Their team is huge
<smartboyhw> zequence that's correct
<smartboyhw> zequence I'm worrying about my laptop.... Doing too many VM ISO testing is killing CPU+RAM
<zequence> Don't run them all at the same time. 
<zequence> smartboyhw: You should hide a computer in your closet and use ssh to control it ;)
<smartboyhw> Even one is quite a problem zequence...
<zequence> Time to go home. bbl
<smartboyhw> zequence: BAH impossble
<zequence> holstein: len_1304 I'd like to change the default wallpaper
<zequence> Just found a wiki page we have with user contributed art
<zequence> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/Artwork/UserContributed
<zequence> There are some really sweet wallpapers there
<holstein> which one?
<zequence> I like the first one a lot
<holstein> dirty?
<zequence> Yeah
<holstein> me too
<holstein> i think it goes with the splash screen
<zequence> It's really dark, so I don't know how well it works with the panels. Need to check
<zequence> But, dark can be really slick
<zequence> I'll try some of them and do some screenshots
<holstein> i like it too as long as its functional
<holstein> i wouldnt waste too much time on it til you ask ScottL.. unless you are just going to push it through
<zequence_> http://imagepaste.nullnetwork.net/viewimage.php?id=5763
<zequence_> http://imagepaste.nullnetwork.net/viewimage.php?id=5764
<zequence_> http://imagepaste.nullnetwork.net/viewimage.php?id=5765
<holstein> yeah... 5764
<holstein> "dirty"
<zequence> I thought both the dark ones worked ok. No problem at all seeing stuff
<holstein> i like 5765 and tried to use it once.. but its too bright
<zequence> I'd like the carbon wallpaper better, if the carbon had a bit more finesse
<zequence> So, dirty is my fave to
<zequence> too*
<zequence> holstein: There are a lot of nice ones out there, if one wants to look for them :) www.google.com/imgres?hl=en&client=ubuntu&hs=w9h&sa=X&channel=fs&biw=1885&bih=922&tbm=isch&tbnid=L2waWAgUckdOZM:&imgrefurl=http://ofdirfska.deviantart.com/art/Ubuntu-Studio-Wallpaper-106246616&docid=45Tz2yv6KeATVM&imgurl=http://www.deviantart.com/download/106246616/Ubuntu_Studio_Wallpaper_by_Ofdirfska.png&w=1280&h=800&ei=eO44Ue_uEqiR4ASby4DICA&zoom=1&ve
<zequence> Sorry about the long links
<zequence> We should contact the artists of some of those, and see if they'd like to do more stuff for us
<zequence> holstein: This is the login screen http://imagepaste.nullnetwork.net/viewimage.php?id=5766
<holstein> thats nice too!
<zequence> holstein: Actually, I think this isn't original art. The background is something else, and then someone just added the icon to it
<zequence> Also, when you look at the icon, it's not very well done
<zequence> Makes me less eager to choose it
<Len-nb> zequence, +1 on new wall paper.
<zequence> Len-nb: holstein: How's this one? http://imagepaste.nullnetwork.net/viewimage.php?id=5767
<Len-nb> I'm not very visually oriented :) That looks fine to me, My main thing is that change is good. I says this release is new.
<zequence> Yes, it would be bad to keep the same one over so much time
<zequence> I actually did the last one myself. Inspired by what Cory had done
<zequence> Found a pattern, and used it to make the background
<zequence> Not the most original though
<zequence> Also, it didn't turn out the way I wanted. I'll do another one, just for the fun of it. I'm not really interested in adding my own stuff. Just that we have something that works, and then we can move on
<zequence> I'd rather have some artist do this stuff
<zequence> I'm feeling pretty happy with this one now http://imagepaste.nullnetwork.net/viewimage.php?id=5768
<zequence> At least on how it turned out. Another issue, if it's the right wallpaper
<micahg> zequence: is Studio up for beta 1?
<Len-nb> That bg is fine by me.
<micahg> slangasek was wondering who's on board in -release
<Len-nb> micahg, Bug #1151310 fix committed
<ubottu> bug 1151310 in ubuntustudio-default-settings (Ubuntu Raring) "udev rule in /etc" [High,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1151310
<Len-nb> I guess you get email anyway.
<micahg> not from the branch, but the bug
<zequence> micahg: Not yet. I think we'd like to do just a couple of finishing touches
<micahg> Len-nb: did you link the bug in the changelog?  I don't see a branch connected to the bug
<Len-nb> micahg, do we have an iso?
<micahg> zequence: no, it's next week, they just want a show of hands for participation so they can allocate resources I guess
<micahg> Len-nb: yes :)
<micahg> though i386 is larger which is a bit wird
<micahg> *weird
<zequence> It has wine, while amd64 doesn't
<Len-nb> 32bit has wine
<zequence> :)
<zequence> lmms thing
<micahg> I'm guessing we can't do multiarch ISOs yet...
<Len-nb> micahg, not sure what you mean by linked.
<zequence> micahg: Oh, sorry. I misunderstood. No, we were not planning to participate in that
<micahg> Len-nb: close the bug in the changelog and do debcommit or use --fixes lp:XXXXX with bzr commit
<zequence> micahg: Is Xubuntu doing Beta1?
<micahg> zequence: yes, we'd like a few weeks to get feedback before the final beta
<Len-nb> The change log has the bug number in it with the change.
<zequence> micahg: Well, in that case, I say we should go too. I think we can manage getting things done by then, anyway
<Len-nb> The commit message has the bug in it too. I didn't know about the --fixes thing I have never done that before
<micahg> if you use debcommit, it's automatic
<micahg> I think it's automatic with bzr commit as well
<Len-nb> Should I just recommit with that in?
<micahg> I'm puzzled that it's not linked
<micahg> no, that's ok, it's just weird
<Len-nb> I'll be sure to use --fixes next time
 * micahg linked it manually
<micahg> Len-nb: nah, just use debcommit if you've written a changelog
<micahg> it's a lot easier than fumbling with the fixes syntax
<zequence_> http://imagepaste.nullnetwork.net/viewimage.php?id=5769
<zequence> That's a screenshot of the desktop with the wallpaper
 * Len-nb has to pick son up
<zequence> Len-nb: Remember to put him down
<micahg> Len-nb: as for the README, I don't know if cluttering /etc with READMEs is a good idea, there's already a README with instructions there, if you want package specific instructions, then a package based README that gets installed would be fine
<zequence> I think it makes much more sense to document that suff on wikis
<micahg> wikis you have to hunt for, READMEs get installed with the package
<micahg> wikis can point to the README as well
<micahg> READMEs are also good for offline docs
<zequence> I don't know if any udev rules have docs anywhere
<zequence> installed, I mean
<zequence> It would be good for us to document the few alterations we make
<zequence> But, I'd rather have them easier to find, on our website, or somewhere
<zequence> If someone is smart enough to find a README for a package, they can find the udev rule too
<zequence> Better to put a comment in it to clarify what it does, and why
<micahg> that's fine too
<Len-nb> micahg, I decided we don't need the README.
<Len-nb> I was thinking in case someone wanted to deactivate it. But this justs adds a group it is something else sets the max frequency
#ubuntustudio-devel 2013-03-08
 * smartboyhw is unhappy that he will be filing dozens of FFes....
<smartboyhw> zequence, I thought Rick Spencer gave up getting 13.04 rolling
<smartboyhw> Part of the straw man proposal was to convert 13.04 into a Rolling
<smartboyhw> Release in order to allow us to go faster on the converged OS starting
<smartboyhw> immediately. Given the work that is left to achieve a proper proposal
<smartboyhw> for the tech board, I don't foresee such a proposal being completed in
<smartboyhw> time to make such a radical change to 13.04.
<smartboyhw> Cheers, Rick
<smartboyhw> ................................
<zequence> smartboyhw: I'm not making any assumptions about that. 
<smartboyhw> zequence, eh?
<zequence> smartboyhw: What do mean, filing FFes?
<smartboyhw> zequence, anyway it turns out i only need one FFes:P
<smartboyhw> zequence, BTW: now that you've managed to get everything working on wiki, I think for 13.10 we should start working on offline docs
<smartboyhw> And hey scott-work 
<scott-work> good morning smartboyhw , everyone
<scott-work> i like off-line docs
<smartboyhw> scott-work, :)
<scott-work> i have been thinking about that for a while now, not all docs mind you, just some important ones perhaps
<scott-work> but we'd need a new package, which isn't a big deal
<scott-work> but we could also include release notes in that package if we so chose
<smartboyhw> scott-work, OK:)
<smartboyhw> scott-work, zequence sent otu a call for artworks:)
<smartboyhw> And here's our current status: http://status.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-raring/group/topic-raring-flavor-ubuntustudio.html
<scott-work> hmmm, we are not bad off actually. much better than i expected
<smartboyhw> scott-work, because we marked most of them as BLOCKED:P
<smartboyhw> LOL
<scott-work> oh, LOL
<smartboyhw> scott-work, :P
<scott-work> and a lot as postponed as well, i see
<smartboyhw> scott-work, yes
<smartboyhw> s/BLOCKED/POSTPONED/ actually
<kubotu> smartboyhw: You did something wrong... Try s/you/me/ or tell me "help sed"
<smartboyhw> LOL
<zequence> scott-work: What do you think of my attempt at some sort of unified theme for Ubuntu Studio? https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/Artwork/CarbonTheme
<zequence> The background is too dark. I'm going to fix that
<zequence> Learning as I do. Using inkscape a bit more now
<smartboyhw> zequence, makes me think of the movie Troy....
<zequence> Not a bad thing, I suppose
<smartboyhw> Probably at the same time change the plymouth theme too (possible?)
 * smartboyhw wonders how could zequence actually being able to do SO many things.
<zequence> The plymoth theme is really nice. I wouldn't want to change anything but the wallpaper until we're really sure about it
<smartboyhw> zequence, OK
<zequence> while I'm doing this, I want to lay out a structure for how we work with artwor
<zequence> artwork*
<zequence> for each release, we'll see if we can do something new. and at least for LTS, we do a new makeover of everything
<smartboyhw> zequence, nice one
<smartboyhw> zequence, but will we have 13.10 ?
<zequence> Doesn't need to be a total rework. Just a fresh-up
<smartboyhw> 13.04 is now basically un-deleted (even Rick Spencer says that)
<zequence> I'm wondering why there hasn't been a feature freeze announcement though, so I guess they are still talking. 
<zequence> If there's no 13.10, we'll make custom releases now and then
<smartboyhw> zequence, BTW I think ~ubuntustudio-release still hasn't been added in ISO QA Tracker. And also, I saw the annoucement:P
<smartboyhw> zequence, that's the plan
<smartboyhw> zequence, you did subscribe to ubuntu-devel-announce mailing list do you?
<zequence> hmm, perhaps I'm not
<smartboyhw> zequence, https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel-announce/2013-March/001021.html
<zequence> Usually there's an announcement on ubuntu-release
<smartboyhw> Hmm it didn't this time
<zequence> The problem with my dark background has a lot to do with me doing those in the evening
<smartboyhw> zequence, uh
<zequence> Graphic artists would be aware of those things from experience
<zequence> The contrast is too low. There should be more light with the dark
<smartboyhw> scott-work, will Dick Macinnis still do artwork for us?
<scott-work> smartboyhw: he might. i haven't contacted him though. he seems pretty busy with dream studio, talking about rewriting stuff like sound-applet for control jack, etc
<smartboyhw> scott-work, yep
<scott-work> zequence: i really like the second image
<zequence> scott-work: The second is more of a cover for social sites, etc. And more of an example at that too.
<zequence> scott-work: You'll need to look close to see the details, since it's really too dark
<scott-work> zequence: one thing i would suggest for the first image, if it is to be used for a desktop wallpaper, is to make the CoF lighter or faded so that it does draw the eye too much, become too much of a focus, and dominate the desktop
<scott-work> but that is just my personal opinions, doesn't make anyone right or wrong
<zequence> scott-work: I'm also considering the web theme we have. There's a slight correlation between that and Ubuntu artwork. I'm thinking about looking at using the background of our website to do something too
<zequence> scott-work: CoF?
<scott-work> Circle of Friends (or in our case, Circle of Sound Waves)
<zequence> I don't think the website background patter is good for a desktop wallpaper as is, so it would need to be redone. Just thinking about patterns, and how they could be used
<zequence> scott-work: Aha :)
<zequence> One could also have the same pattern have different materials, so while the website is glowing like lights, a desktop wallpaper could be carbon, etc
<zequence> Also, that would make it easier to keep a distinct Ubuntu Studio look for the future, being able to quite easily refresh it without too much work
<zequence> One thing about the pattern in the website background is that the dots are really small
<zequence> I'd like them to be bigger
<zequence> But, maybe that wouldn't work.. I don't know
<zequence> At least I'll have a wallpaper ready this weekend
<smartboyhw> zequence, but then do we want to implement it for 13.04 or?
<zequence> After 13.04, I'd want us to develop some kind of unified theme
<zequence> We need a new wallpaper for 13.04
<zequence> Which one isn't imporant to me, as long as it's a nice one
<smartboyhw> zequence, well maybe we can ship multiple wallpapers (like Lubuntu) and let them choose....
<smartboyhw> zequence, XD Ralf called your wallpaper Sexist (LOL)
<zequence> smartboyhw: We usually do ship multiple. Perhaps not for a while now. we just need to get together more than one wallpaper
<smartboyhw> zequence, :)
<scott-work> zequence: that's an interesting concept: keep the base the same but adjust the hue depending on usage location
<smartboyhw> zequence, we are having problems into getting newest version of blender in.
<scott-work> (or saturation)
<smartboyhw> powerpc build is always the one  breaking things
<scott-work> my personal preferences for a desktop (and by extension the wallpaper) is not a fancy, blingy thing. it should muted, perhaps dark-ish but not dark, and should not distract or draw attention
 * smartboyhw says good night
<scott-work> good night smartboyhw 
<zequence> scott-work: Those are things I agree on too. It should be practical, yet give the feeling of completeness
<scott-work> zequence: right!
<zequence> Well, not "yet"
<scott-work> my vision upon a time was to make a wallpaper that looks "stonish" (i.e. the a fine stone pattern, one piece almost indistinguishable from the other almost to the point of being uniform gray) with the ubuntu studio CoF on the lower right corner looking like a chiseled relief
<scott-work> the CoF would look slightly worn as if by time
<scott-work> the over all tenor would be one of lasting or sustainable stength, something enduring all weathers
<zequence> That would not work together with the idea of a pattern, but it sounds like something that would look really great on a wallpaper, yes
<zequence> There are many things that you can draw from just being inspired by anyone of our workflows, but I'm finding it hard to find something that represents them all
<zequence> patterns are great in that way, cause they don't need to symbolize anything. 
<zequence> Well, a stonish pattern would also be a pattern
<zequence> You could make a wallpaper that looked like a 2x12 speaker, and it would be dark, and simplistic, but would also mainly represent the audio workflow
<zequence> It would even include patterns
<zequence> Would make a lot of sense to have many new wallpapers for each release
<zequence> Not just for variation, but to showcase graphical art done on Ubuntu/Ubuntu Studio
<zequence> Actually, why not showcase stuff that people did in all our workflows on our website? One would need to find people who used Ubuntu Studio to do their work.
<zequence> Well, not a prio anyway..
<scott-work> zequence: i had thought about featuring ubuntu studio artist on the website before, but not focusing on the work flows
<scott-work> that _would_ be a great validation though :)
<zequence> scott-work: have you seent this? https://www.facebook.com/Ubuntustudio?sk=page_insights
<zequence> Really makes you think about the value of PR
<scott-work> i'll have to look at it on my phone, just a moment
<scott-work> you mean reaching the 2930 people?  yeah, that is pretty crazy
<scott-work> in 7 days no less
 * micahg sees the crazy has spilled over to the studio dev list...
<zequence> scott-work: I think it might be good for us to opt in for the Beta1. We won't loose anything by doing it anyway. Would you care to answer the post "Opt-in beta 1 next week" on ubuntu-release?
<scott-work> sure, i can do that
<scott-work> done and done
<zequence> Thanks
<zequence> I should probably contact ubuntuone people again. Been about two months since I bought some music there, and still no delivery
<zequence> Wonder why our ISO failed to build over something that all distros have, and seemingly only ours failed?
<micahg> zequence: hopefully with the recent uploads it'll work tomorrow, if not, feel free to poke, I'll take a look sat night if no one beats me to it
<zequence> micahg: Thanks.
<len_1304> zequence, look at the lmms stuff
<len_1304> It seems the new one depends on an older lmms-common.
<len_1304> lmms : Depends: lmms-common (= 0.4.13-0ubuntu1) but 0.4.14-0ubuntu2 is installed
<zequence> len_1304: Ok. I only read the bottom.
<zequence> That looks more like US specific in deed
<len_1304> It is an LMMS bug
<len_1304> IDK if it is bad in debian as well or just ubuntu
<zequence> len_1304: lmms was just updated to a newer version. I'd blame Ubuntu first
<zequence> But, who knows. I should check the source
<len_1304> It should be a package problem, not source. It would be in the deb control file.
<zequence> The package is source too
<len_1304> Either on the debian site or ours
<zequence> And was what I was referring to
<len_1304> OK
<zequence> There's one patch added by Ubuntu AFAIK
<zequence> len_1304: hmm, I thought you were talking about the ISO build
<zequence> What was the problem you were having with lmms?
<len_1304> Wouldn't bad depends effect that?
<zequence> It didn't get to that point
<zequence> It's in the build log
<zequence> Has to do with print stuff that all the flavors have
<len_1304> Ok, I am going to bug the lmms thing anyway.
<zequence> upgrading did have a problem, yes
<len_1304> Bug #1152807
<ubottu> bug 1152807 in lmms (Ubuntu) "lmms packge asks for older lmms-common, but new lmms-common is installed" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1152807
<zequence> len_1304: I didn't have that problem myself. It complained over the newer version wanting to overwrite the desktop file
<zequence> apt-get install -f fixed it
<len_1304> Yes, but depends is still worng
<zequence> len_1304: Not here. It looks fine for me
<zequence> I'm on amd64 if that makes a difference..
<zequence> Version: 0.4.14-0ubuntu2
<zequence> Depends: lmms-common (= 0.4.14-0ubuntu2)
<len_1304> Shouldn't its not a wine thing. after using -f it installed for me.
<len_1304> Maybe it has been fixed in between when it failed and I used -f
<zequence> Well, I didn't have the problem with versions
<len_1304> Yes it has. your version is ubuntu2, the one that failed was 1
<zequence> Ah, right. It must have been uploaded shortly after then
<zequence> er, no
<zequence> You're talking about 0.4.13
<len_1304> 14 was looking for 13 instead of 14.
<zequence> Well, as I said, I didn't get any dependency problems
<zequence> There was a 0.4.14-0ubuntu1, where 0.4.14-0ubuntu2 only added a patch
<zequence> Don't think the former was ever released though
<zequence> Was updated before it could
<len_1304> They are a day apart, but I don't know.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2013-03-09
<Lumpy> heyas
<len_1304> Lumpy, hello
<len_1304> Did you get my long winded email?
<smartboyhw> zequence, if we are getting in for 13.04 beta 1 reply to mail of ubuntu-release please
<Lumpy> uh i dunno might have accidentally filtered it to nothingness
<Lumpy> what did you need Len-nb 
<Lumpy> found it len
<Lumpy> will read it between sets
<zequence> smartboyhw: I asked scott to do that, and he said he did. But, I haven't seen any action on that
<zequence> Maybe he posted to the wrong adress or something
<smartboyhw> zequence, yeah. And also, stgraber seemed to forgotten the switch from ~ubuntustudio-core to ~ubuntustudio-release...
<smartboyhw> zequence, you send or I send?
<Lumpy> it can get messy quick can't it len
<zequence> smartboyhw: I'll take care of it
<len_1304> Just finding out about the realities of  lots of en/decoding.
<zequence> len_1304: If you find something evil, will you let us know ;)
 * len_1304 has been working with Lumpy on broadcast workflows...
<zequence> cool
<len_1304> The minimum usable system is somewhat more than what I have. but perhaps within the abilities of a modern machine
<len_1304> zequence, one of the prime workflows in broadcasting is phone to air.
<len_1304> a skype or linphone app is much lower latency than ogg/mp3 streaming (though higher than guitarix)
<Lumpy> the latency can be fun
<Lumpy> and it can be fun trying to figure out what is eating up cycles
<len_1304> In the end there may be as many as 5 or 6 encoders and or decoders running at the same time.
<Lumpy> another reason we run our voip in through a board
<Lumpy> helps take it out of the equation so to speak
<len_1304> Ya.
<Lumpy> tonight, I am trying to crash the PC and just can't seem to make it do so
<Lumpy> and i jacked up the latency
<Lumpy> still getting an occasional xrun
<len_1304> I thought cutting pulse down to 2 channels might help... it did help.
<Lumpy> like one every two or three hours
<Lumpy> i don't use pulse in my setup
<Lumpy> jackd at two chans
<len_1304> No need.
<Lumpy> running jackrack adds a few cycles though
<len_1304> Jack uses not much 2 channels or 10.
<len_1304> effects use more yes.
<Lumpy> I try to match my channels to my output
<len_1304> I use the card I have :)
<Lumpy> i use an ancient soundblaster here
<Lumpy> and the old beast still works good enough
<zequence> smartboyhw: Once you log out and in again, you should have rights on the ISO QA site
<Lumpy> i am using just a tad bit of compression and some equalization to kill the pc fans
<len_1304> Every broadcast facility I have been in has some form of "sweetening" before air like an orban optomod
<zequence> broadcasting and radio is something I've never been close to
<len_1304> Makes for a more consistent signal level
<zequence> Otherwise, I've done pretty much anything that has to do with audio
<len_1304> I worked in both radio and tv from 79 to 84 or so.
<Lumpy> you are correct len, i am too on a P4 but mine is a dual core
<len_1304> Dual core? or hyperthread?
<Lumpy> dual core, one of the first
<Lumpy> 2.4 GHz pm a Intel Wasp D65 mobo
<Lumpy> with 2 gig or RAM
<len_1304> When I finally upgrade I will go dual or quad.
<Lumpy> the G5 is a multi processor
<Lumpy> not much good for current stuff due to lack of support but a nice post processing machine
<len_1304> The supermicro MB look really good for low latency stuff.
<len_1304> Even some of the lower end ones.
<Lumpy> are you using the low latency kernel?
<len_1304> yes.
<Lumpy> holstein says we don't need it but i like it
<Lumpy> i would rather have everything other than audio die in crash first
<len_1304> I think it is about matching the application to the latency
<Lumpy> even when i have over runs, you can't hear them in the final product
<len_1304> For really low latency I turn hyperthreading off. But if I can handle higher latency, I might get better performance with it on.
<len_1304> Like I may be able to handle more DSP tasks.
<zequence> You don't need linux-lowlatency, if you don't need low latency
<zequence> But, if you do, you need it
<zequence> Simple as that
<Lumpy> lol
<len_1304> Ya, there is that
<len_1304> but, there is low latency and low latency.
<Lumpy> and you don't need to increase your latency unless you need to increase your latency.. then you do
<len_1304> :)
<Lumpy> it is pretty much like i have always said
<Lumpy> go out there and screw it up.. fix it... repeat
<len_1304> This system: https://www.osadl.org/Profile-of-system-in-rack-2-slot-0.qa-profile-r2s0.0.html is getting about 30us max latency for example.
<len_1304> Mine is doing good to get in around 1ms
<len_1304> with tweaks. Well the other one is tweaked as well...
<Lumpy> i took the jack latency to 90 some ms
<Lumpy> and haven't had an overrun since
<len_1304> Your phone line needs to be less.... and is by default
<Lumpy> i still lean to the mixer for that
<Lumpy> for the bucks you spend on a mixer and all
<Lumpy> that and you can tweak you firewall for your voip line
<Lumpy> and, len, don't forget to double check that
<Lumpy> bust the ports open on your voip
<Lumpy> just in case you didn't think of that
<len_1304> I am not sure what codec TS uses but skype and many others use speex which is lower latency than ogg.
<len_1304> I wasn't gong through the FW at all. 100mb line all internal. (this side of the FW
<len_1304> From phone to icecast
<Lumpy> well if you are going to do voip, incoming, just make sure you have the right ports open
<len_1304> Ya.
<Lumpy> it can create it's own latency so to speak
<len_1304> If there is a proxy yes.
<len_1304> an open port is better.
<Lumpy> another reason why we try and stick with teamspeak
<Lumpy> we can host it on our own server and there are no relays
<len_1304> well done sip can do without relays too.
<len_1304> Sip just sets the call up.
<Lumpy> i am sure there are many ways to achieve the same thing with it
<Lumpy> i was chatting with some one else who does streaming and they swear by MIXX
<len_1304> There is a broadcast standard for using sip for audio contribution.
<Lumpy> which I have never even looked at
<len_1304> Mixxx is picky about video drivers.
<len_1304> It will run on my laptop but not my desktop.
<len_1304> But on my lap top half of it is out of my screen area.
<len_1304> So it is not usable for me.
<Lumpy> i have never tried it
<Lumpy> and exactly what is the sip protocol all about
<Lumpy> i can't recall if it sends any metadata
<len_1304> SIP is a connection protocol.
<len_1304>  The meta data is in the stream itself
<Lumpy> right
<Lumpy> reading the wikipedia page on it now
<len_1304> it is possible to use SIP to set up an MP3 or ogg stream for example.
<Lumpy> or video or html
<len_1304> Yes.
<len_1304> Or text chat even.
<Lumpy> sooner or later we will have a nice neat uniform format... lol... we have been saying that since the atari days
<Lumpy> i happened on a new article on line
<Lumpy> aparently there is some TV station in Chicago that is still using an Amiga for it's closed caption
 * Lumpy fires up his vic-20
<len_1304> There is opus
<Lumpy> i used to link C-64s together back in the day
<len_1304> It is a mix of speex/celt
<Lumpy> so i could use all the SIDs at once
<len_1304> I kind of skipped those
<Lumpy> they were the best sound chip of the day imho
<len_1304> Went from synclar to atari mega
<Lumpy> i went from a 20 to 64 to an amiga
<Lumpy> then got into i86s
<len_1304> The mega had the best midi solution at the time... and I could aford it.
<Lumpy> my 64 was all jacked up actuall
<Lumpy> had an external hd even
<Lumpy> four minutes to mic for me atm
<Lumpy> so if i seem hereish
<len_1304> I was getting into BBSs so I went OS/2 then Linux
<Lumpy> I was a big BBS nut too
 * len_1304 seems to have skipped the MS thing too.
<Lumpy> that and I think I spent most of my college money on compuserve
<Lumpy> i really was not into the PC stuff for long
<Lumpy> 98, ME and XP
<Lumpy> and XP is more a remnent
<holstein> Lumpy: holstein said *you* might not need it
<holstein> if you need it, you need it.. but most folk dont
<len_1304>  :) :)
<holstein> most folks just trip about needing/wanting it
<len_1304> His SW needs jack, but it could probably get away without it running real time.
<Lumpy> ntl holstein is usually correct
<holstein> i try and stick to the facts :)
<Lumpy> and yah, i trip about needing wanting everything i can get out of this old beast
<holstein> i did too...
<len_1304> but 90ms is hardly lowlatency.
<Lumpy> i can run it as low as 32
<Lumpy> but then i get xruns
<len_1304> well.... compared to an ogg stream...
<len_1304> an ogg stream might be 5sec or more.
<zequence> I think even for consumers, who want to play around with audio apps, low latency quickly becomes important. It's whenever you do something live, and that's usually primarily using a midi keyboard to play a soft synth. You just can't do that with a generic kernel. That's why -lowlatency is really the better default, no matter what ambitions you have in music
<zequence> The only time you might not want it is (and I don't know how big of a problem this is) - when you need to save battery
<Lumpy> i have not really played with the MIDI while streaming
<len_1304> Doesn't make any difference on an atom based machine. But on other laptops it does.
<Lumpy> but will sometime in the future
<Lumpy> i have an atom based machine
<Lumpy> only used it to stream once
<Lumpy> generic kernel
<holstein> if its not 10ms, then it might as well be 90
<len_1304> Some of the atom mother boards with the dual core 64bit atoms can get really good low latency.
<holstein> i can hear 20
<len_1304> holstein, that is not really true in all things.
<holstein> 15 or so and i can hear it.. so it might as well be 90
<len_1304> in VOIP work
<zequence> -lowlatency is probably the better choice for desktops. The main reason why it's not an option on Ubuntu is a 10% decrease in troughput, which is something that servers need
<holstein> len_1304: thats true
<zequence> -rt on the other hand is a bit more extreme
<len_1304> good sub ms latency.
<len_1304> if the system is tweaked
 * len_1304 has used guitarix with .725 ms set on jack and less than an xrun maybe every 5 to 10 min.
<len_1304> that would be lowlatency kernel 
<Lumpy> i have barely played with guitarix
<len_1304> The machine was well tweaked, with next to nothing else happening.
<Lumpy> worse thing is i bought the usb jack for my parker and then never even plugged it in again
<zequence> Something that people don't realize is that on Windows you're never told if there's an audio drop out. The only way to tell is if you heard it
<zequence> So, one wonders how often they happen
<zequence> And, on Mac, some apps do object when that happens. But, not others, like Cubase
<Lumpy> windows === windblows 
<Lumpy> least for audio
<Lumpy> least for me
<Lumpy> and i hated SAM
<holstein> cubase on xp was fine
<Lumpy> barely used cubase
<Lumpy> once i happened on audacity and linux
<Lumpy> i was pretty much done with buying audio software
<Lumpy> although, i think i was one of six people in the world that had any luck with ME
<Lumpy> i ran ME for 12 years
<zequence> I've had no problems with Cubase and XP. Used that for many years. I used OSX in paralell for a couple of years. This was around 2004-2005. Found OSX a lot more prone to crashes
<Lumpy> i ran ME forever on my creative m003 mobo
<Lumpy> was the only machine i ever liked it on but it ran and ran and ran
<Lumpy> go figure
<len_1304> windows is that free thing that comes with the machine, I replace it with something useful when I get the box home.
<Lumpy> lol
<Lumpy> i boot into XP once a week to update it
<Lumpy> tis all
<zequence> The next machine I buy will either have a Linux preinstalled, or nothing
<zequence> I usually just buy PC parts, but I might get a laptop next
<len_1304> I try to build from the MB up, but with netbooks that is kinda hard.
<Lumpy> i usually get scrap parts and build
<Lumpy> the m003 was the last kit one i built
<Lumpy> and that was in the 90s
<holstein> i used jack and ardour on osx.. worked fine. the same pretty much
<Lumpy> and len does your rig ever use the swap space?
<Lumpy> or does it pretty much hum along on just the ram
<len_1304> Swap space use in audio = fail
<Lumpy> i still put a swap on each drive
<Lumpy> despite the fact that it never seems to use it
<len_1304> I put swap in... the only use for it is that if I go into swap with audio it doesn't kick the audio app out so I have a chance to save stuff before I start that track over.
<len_1304> But once anything audio gets into swap... even something GUI only like qjackctl... the whole audio chain gets affected in my experience
<Lumpy> yup... you start to so so sound li like ike.. ya know
<Lumpy> and once it starts, it doe not seem to like to stop
<len_1304> I have had the sound stop for several 10s of sec.
<Lumpy> it will be three hours at the top of the hour
<len_1304> But I have never had that happen in real audio use yet. Only while testing to see how many audio apps I could get going at once.
<Lumpy> 0 xruns
<Lumpy> once again, holstein ftw
<holstein> \o/
<Lumpy> i am going to have to bust out the Parker next
<Lumpy> then the MIDI
<Lumpy> i am confident i can make the whole thing crash and burn 
<holstein> midi is usually easy/ight
<holstein> light*
<Lumpy> esp since my midi is an old video game card
<Lumpy> yeah but if i run idjc, guitarix and midi software all at once
<len_1304> probably more stable than a USB midi.
<Lumpy> i would think i would just be begging for some latency issues then
<holstein> Lumpy: nah... its the stuff happening in the box that will be the issue, i say
<holstein> the midi information is really small
<Lumpy> that is it's strong suit
<Lumpy> nice compact digital info
<Lumpy> uh oh Jack: **** alsa_pcm: xrun of at least 0.087 msecs
<Lumpy> spoke too soon
<Lumpy> like who could hear that anyhow
<Lumpy> i have some old midi gear just hollerin for me to play with it
<Lumpy> a yamaha dx-7 and a roland dr-5
<Lumpy> last time i did anything with them was in windows
<Lumpy> i think i used anvil for it
<len_1304> my kb is also a DX7
<Lumpy> i have the very first one actually
<len_1304> I don't use it for sound, just midi. new in 85ish
<Lumpy> i inherited it from an old room mate
<Lumpy> he didn't want it anymore... go figure
<Lumpy> i like the old heavy beast
<len_1304> To get rid of spurious xruns like that probably turn off things like cron...
<Lumpy> good for curls, really builds the biceps
<Lumpy> such a small xrun though
<len_1304> I like the action. enough weighting for most things and little enough where it is not wanted.
<Lumpy> i don't actually ever play it anymore
<Lumpy> i was more the guitarist
<Lumpy> i wonder if 36 instances of chrome might have anything to do with my xrun
<Lumpy> odd thing is that my cpu usage is constantly hanging low
<Lumpy> it is not jumping up even for a second
<Lumpy> so why an xrun if the cpu is not taxed?
<holstein> hard drive could be
<Lumpy> dunno
<Lumpy> lots of hard drive space
<Lumpy> synergy keeps eating up cycles though
<Lumpy> i am not luving this new beta of synergy
<holstein> i generally disable networking
<holstein> i turn the cpu govenor off
<Lumpy> i would be a tad dead without networking
<holstein> yeah?
<holstein> i dont do normal computing on my audio rig
<holstein> i disable the pulse to jack bridge
<holstein> its more of an audio appliance
<Lumpy> i used to remove pulse completely
<Lumpy> and, yeah, i want to build a rig like that
<Lumpy> i just need one more pc
<holstein> i dont have any issue with pluse.. i just dont need it
<Lumpy> well if i build one for audio only, i would likely feel the same
<Lumpy> never really cared much for pulse
<Lumpy> but i think it was skype that needed it
<Lumpy> and i was going to try and get that voip working with idjc just for giggles
<Lumpy> if it weren
<Lumpy> er
<Lumpy> even though it may be a pia, i think i might tweak the G5 to be audio only
<Lumpy> i just need a way to hook the midi stuff up
<Lumpy> i have been using the G5 for post production and it works well for that
<Lumpy> but that old PowerPC is not that well supported anymore
<holstein> ive been using the G4 i have to prop the door open
<Lumpy> which kinda suck cuz it seems like a sweet architecture
<holstein> its really the best performance ive gotten out of that machine
<Lumpy> lol
<Lumpy> my G5 is the only thing i have that is 64 bit
<holstein> eh.. you'l get something
<holstein> i have 3 64bit machine i got for nothing
<Lumpy> just kind of a shame, the dual cpu arch still had some use
<Lumpy> then we went multicore and forgot about it
<Lumpy> i can do post production about 30% faster on it though
<Lumpy> but yeah, i will get something sooner or later
<Lumpy> and besides, half the game is making due with what you got
<holstein> for me, its never an issue of getting the machine to do more work, or faster
<Lumpy> for me, post production time is the bottleneck
<Lumpy> it is real easy to hit the record and stream button
<Lumpy> what i really need is a staff of henchmen.. heh
<len_1304> holstein, it is kind of hard to broadcast on internet with no networking...
<Lumpy> yeah, i would consider that an obstacle
<len_1304> having browsers open is something else though :)
<holstein> yup... i always had to re-enable to stream
<Lumpy> i am leaving them open to tax the system
<Lumpy> hitting refresh often
<Lumpy> and still can't force a crash
<len_1304> sudo apt-get update
<Lumpy> must be doing something right, can't jack the cpu over 70%
<Lumpy> well that takes it to about 88%
<Lumpy> and now it is done already
<len_1304> There is a package called stress that is supposed to stress the system for testing...
<Lumpy> is it in the repos?
<len_1304> yup
<Lumpy> well as soon as all these updates install
<Lumpy> who would have thought one would be streaming while updating 20 years ago
<len_1304> In the early days of linux it was formatting a floppy while doing stuff.
<len_1304> There is also cpuburn... but that seems to be for putting thermal stress on the system. 
<Lumpy> installed
<len_1304> stress --cpu 1  seems to use up whatever cpu cycles whatever else isn't using.
<Lumpy> once i am off the mic, i will give it a go
<len_1304> Right now mine is using 95% cpu... till I do anything.
<Lumpy> still only jacked it 88
<Lumpy> well stress -c 2 takes it right to the max
<Lumpy> and no xruns
<holstein> thats good, i think
<Lumpy> yeah, in the way it was good before
<Lumpy> no issues but still no clue as to the crash weeks ago
<Lumpy> brb
<Lumpy> back
<ifndef> hello
<Lumpy> heya ifndef 
<Lumpy> making friends over there in open source eh holstein 
<Lumpy> :p
<Lumpy> jk
<ifndef> how's it going, lumpy? 
<Lumpy> it is going
<Lumpy> you?
<ifndef> pretty well man. it's my first time hopping here, what is the purpose? other than bantering with the devs haha
<Lumpy> that, imho, more or less is the purpose
<Lumpy> that and it is a great resource for help
<Lumpy> len and holstein save my butt often
<ifndef> sounds good. I've never helped out with anything like this, but I
<ifndef> just joined the mailing list and saw that you guys had a channel
<Lumpy> and len_1304, it is synergy
<Lumpy> synergy is eating up cycles like crazy
<Lumpy> and there is nothing in the log about errors
<Lumpy> just keeps eating up cycles
<Lumpy> the longer i run it, the more it creeps up
<Lumpy> then i kill it and then it drops back down to climb again
<Len-nb> that sounds bugish
<Len-nb> I have not had that problem with ssh -Y  ...
<Lumpy> it does it all the time
<Lumpy> the idjc stuff is using about 34 %
<Lumpy> meterbridge about 6
<Lumpy> jack rack about 6
<Lumpy> right now synergy is at 2 but give it some time and it climbs slowly
<smartboyhw> zequence, got it
<Len-nb> there are some interesting things about running apps on a remote x server.
<Len-nb> just about everything is like running on the remote computer... except x config applies to the local x server still.
<smartboyhw> Len-nb, OK
<smartboyhw> Len-nb, prepare to test Beta 1 :P
<Len-nb> so if I run arandr on my desktop through the x server on my netbook it sees my netbook screen not the desktop one
<Len-nb> has beta one given us an iso?
<smartboyhw> Len-nb, not yet:P
<smartboyhw> Len-nb, wait till Monday
<smartboyhw> And I want to get Blender 2.66a in
<smartboyhw> We are still having issues with stupid powerpc
<Lumpy> well i got my crash
<Lumpy> and the error log is useless
<Lumpy> more or less, it told me that it left the screen but could not come back
<Lumpy> like thaaaanks
<smartboyhw> Len-nb, you want me to fix the lmms bug?
<smartboyhw> Len-nb, hmm lmms depends on lmms-common (= ${source:Version}) ......
<Lumpy> night all
<smartboyhw> REALLY WEIRD
<smartboyhw> I think what happened is that it depended on the source:Version of lmms IN LOCAL COMPUTER
 * smartboyhw is writing his debate script
<zequence> inkscape is quite buggy actually
<zequence> It's really difficult to work with patterns. 
<smartboyhw> zequence, oh is it?
<zequence> Working with patterns means you can spot a single pixel being off on a whole line
<zequence> At least when the pattern is very small and simple
<len_1304> zequence, pattern creation and alignment are critical
<len_1304> If the glitch shows up at every pattern boundary then the pattern is faulty
<len_1304> zequence, Do we have a freeze yet?
<len_1304> if not we should get your bg and settings in
<smartboyhw> Len-nb, yes
<smartboyhw> len_1304, ^
<smartboyhw> lol
<smartboyhw> len_1304, just file an FFe
<len_1304> Just a thought about the default bg and other artwork. If we made the default BG and other artwork always have the same name... or have a link to whatever is default, then we would only have to disturb one package for each change.
<len_1304> smartboyhw, we have a daily build today, is that the one for testing? or wait til monday?
<smartboyhw> len_1304, wait till monday
<len_1304> ok. The icon theme finally defaults (yahoo)
<smartboyhw> len_1304, :D
<smartboyhw> GOOGLE!
<len_1304> google :P
<smartboyhw> len_1304, in response to yahoo:P
<len_1304> Ah Google doesn't have the same enthusiastic feel though
<len_1304> it looks like some of the problems people are having on install may be the usb-creator
<smartboyhw> len_1304, correct
<smartboyhw> I never got it working
<len_1304> There seems to be a workaround
<len_1304> when the auth for boot comes up open a terminal and stnc
<len_1304> then type password
<len_1304> *sync
 * len_1304 is zsync-ing to todays iso. I will check all my work so I can "DONE" my blueprints
<zequence> len_1304: The pattern is fine. Just inkscape doing weird things when trying to export or save the file
<zequence> I'm constantly moving between GIMP and inkscape to do different things
<Len-nb> holstein, good response.
<holstein> Len-nb: i havent stole anything like that in years
<holstein> you cant trust those things you download.. you never know what they really are
<Len-nb> Some of us don't need a new movie every day. And yes a lot of them have "bad" code in them.
<holstein> it could be just "bad" too not malicous
<holstein> just not done correctly
<Len-nb> Yup.
<holstein> bascically "i downloaded a giant file that is supposed to be a movie, and it wont become a movie for me..."
<holstein> thats not something i can help with.. or care to bother with
<Len-nb> It is not a normal topic for a channel about content creation anyway.
<Len-nb> s/normal/sane/
<kubotu> Len-nb meant: "It is not a sane topic for a channel about content creation anyway."
<holstein> right?
<zequence> Did another background. This one is a little better light wise, but a bit too far out to be default IMO (I'll go back to working on the original colors again) https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/Artwork/CarbonTheme?action=AttachFile&do=view&target=carbon-blue.png
<len-live> zequence, re:artwork, at least the first and last slide in ubiquity will need to be changed as well to match the new background.
<zequence> len-live: Ok. I'll have a look at them
<len-live> The icon on the parted install page is now correct.
<len-live> The menu icons now use standard icon names.
<len-live> and none of them are "stolen/borrowed" from apps we happen to include right now.
<len-live> zequence, the two slides mentioned have the current desktop background in them.
<len-live> videos may want to mention kdenlive
<len-live> graphics may want to mention krita
<len-live> the photography slide mentions "Darkroom",. Is that supposed to be Darktable?
<len-live> I will send this stuff to the list.
<zequence> alright
<len-live> Scott did all these last time so he may have the the original art work layers
<zequence> I just got the source. I could replace a couple of pics and edit the text
<len-live> That was my thought.
<len-live> Bug #1153032 
<ubottu> bug 1153032 in ubiquity (Ubuntu) "ubiquity slideshow for ubuntustudio is out of date and incorrect" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1153032
<len-live> exit
<Len-nb> zequence, todays ISO looks good. We are waiting for the catfish fix to upload (probably tomorrow when micahg  gets back) and whatever art work you do.
<Len-nb> zequence, I think this item should be moved from Raring to the overall one:Make sure the custom menu has entries for "all" multimedia applications available to Linux
<Len-nb> Or just postponed.
<Len-nb> Really anytime someone installs an app and it ends in the wrong place, it can be fixed as a bug.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2013-03-10
<zequence> Len-nb: I hate custom entried though, which is why I'd rather work on standardization
<zequence> I mean, I don't like customization
<zequence> The further you go with it, the less you can build on it
<zequence> It's like programming. Better to solve stuff with a few functions and variables, and keep the work to a few lines of code, rather than pages
<zequence> Was it me who added that task? I'm thinking yes
<zequence> Anyway, we know what the important stuff is for this release.
<zequence> I started a new theme. Same ide, but a different pattern in the background 
<zequence> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/Artwork/RockTheme
<zequence> Just getting the light right is a big hazzle. Need to try make this monitor as neutral as possible
<len-1304> Fixing wrong placement in the menu can just a easily mean fixing the source desktop file.
<len-1304> In fact we should reword the BP item that way.
<len-1304> We should start with the applications we ship and starting at the SW author ask to change it... with a patch they can use.
<len-1304> I just sent email to Sean about Hexter today with regard to that.
<len-1304> I don't think he includes one, but I want to make sure. (I couldn't find it in his source)
<len-1304> The hexter desktop file is broken. We fix it in settings, but I want to move the fix upstream.
<zequence> The desktop files definitely matter the most, I think
<len-1304> Its going to be a one at a time thing, but worth it I think.
<zequence> absolutely. After all, they don't only end up as entries in the Ubuntu Studio menu (since not everyone are using it)
<zequence> I'm pretty happy with this one https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/Artwork/RockTheme?action=AttachFile&do=view&target=rock-grey.png
<zequence> Got some ideas from what Scott talked about. 
<zequence> And the light should be good now
<len-1304> What happens 0on a small screen does the cof shrink to tiny?
 * len-1304 shrugs,
<len-1304> I figure most people will have high rez monitors
<len-1304> those like me with a net book are used to small graphics already :)
<len-1304> I would be happy with that too.
<len-1304> Though to be honest it looks more like leather than rock.
<len-1304> Like the stuff my amp is covered with :)
<zequence> It's called egg shell
<zequence> The pattern
<len-1304> It works fine.
<zequence> I think the image is just scaled to whatever monitor you have. And zoomed if it's not the right ratio
<zequence> I think it works great, but the only detail I'm not sure about is the color hue.
<len-1304> Even at half size if zoomed/shrunk to fit the netbook, it will still look good.
<zequence> It doesn't fully work with the US desktop right now
<zequence> It has a lot of detail, yes. Looks good even when you get really close
<zequence> I'm using a 1920x1080 HD TV as monitor. The wallpaper is scaled down
<zequence> The icon is better now too
<zequence> I'll play with the hue a bit tomorrow. After that, i don't think I can do much better
<len-1304> Mine is 1680x1050
<len-1304> I've put it on my desktop to see how it works
<len-1304> to be honest, most of my DT is normally covered with open Apps anyway.
<zequence> My windows are usually always maximized
<zequence> But, it's still important. You want it to look professional. 
<zequence> The first impression is important too
<len-1304> All it needs is a few half pealed off stickers that say Jamaica or something.
<len-1304> Ya it has to have a great first look
<len-1304> The sticker is kidding BTW
<zequence> The problem now I see is that the XFCE theme doesn't have very complicated coloring, so the wallpaper is not blending in well.
<len-1304> In some ways that is good, it means everyhting is visible and not hidden.
<zequence> That's if for me this night. See you tomorrow maybe
<len-1304> Good night
<len-1304> The panel can have the alpha channel turned way down zequence 
<len-1304> smartboyhw, good morning
<smartboyhw> len-1304, hiyas
<smartboyhw> len-1304, saw your bug report
<len-1304> Take a look at <zequence> I'm pretty happy with this one https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/Artwork/RockTheme?action=AttachFile&do=view&target=rock-grey.png
<smartboyhw> Bug 1153032
<ubottu> bug 1153032 in ubiquity-slideshow-ubuntu (Ubuntu) "ubiquity slideshow for ubuntustudio is out of date and incorrect" [Medium,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1153032
<len-1304> Ya, there are two. The ISO looked pretty good
<smartboyhw> len-1304, the slideshow is knome's job I think
<smartboyhw> len-1304, the artwork is great
<len-1304> zequence has the source too.
<len-1304> I put that background on this machine.
<smartboyhw> len-1304, then give it to zequence to fix:P
<smartboyhw> I will fix the lmms bug first I think
<len-1304> I am not sure it still is a bug. There were two releases less than 24hr apart
<smartboyhw> len-1304, whoa!?
<len-1304> It may have been from getting things mixed because the package list was downloaded mid change.
<len-1304> The depends look right to me.
<len-1304> there was one at  Thu, 28 Feb 2013 20:58:18 -0600 and one at Wed, 06 Mar 2013 13:01:25 -0500
<smartboyhw> len-1304, uh which one's version was earlier?
<len-1304> Actually they are a week apart... my mistake
<holstein> !proaudio
<ubottu> For information on professional audio tools in Ubuntu, see https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuStudio/ProAudioIntro
<len-1304> zequence, and whoever else... I'm off to bed. Re bug 1153032 see my email. If no one else can fix I will do a quick one as per email.
<ubottu> bug 1153032 in ubiquity-slideshow-ubuntu (Ubuntu) "ubiquity slideshow for ubuntustudio is out of date and incorrect" [Medium,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1153032
<smartboyhw> micahg, ping
 * smartboyhw wonders should he fix the slideshow...
<smartboyhw> But first of all: The LMMS bug
<smartboyhw> Really simple fix
<Len-nb> smartboyhw, there is a new slide show being uploaded as I type.
<smartboyhw> Len-nb, ok
<Len-nb> it will be lp:~len-ovenwerks/+junk/ubiquity-slideshow-ubuntu 	
<Len-nb> if people think its ok I can do a merge request.
<smartboyhw> Len-nb, em I can't branch it
<Len-nb> Not yet
<smartboyhw> Len-nb, LOL
<Len-nb> This is a slow upload
<smartboyhw> Len-nb, fixed the LMMS bug. Waiting for somebody to review.
<Len-nb> Great.
<smartboyhw> Len-nb, it turns out it is just a missing > :P
<smartboyhw> Len-nb, tell me when it is uploaded
<smartboyhw> it = the slideshow
<Len-nb> Its at 16M out of 55M
<Len-nb> best I can tell
<smartboyhw> Len-nb, ok
<smartboyhw> Some of the people leaving Ubuntu set up a #ubuntu-expat channel at OFTC (LOL)
<smartboyhw> Len-nb, how much MB have you uploaded to the bzr branch?
<zequence> len-1304: The wallpaper looked weird on your desktop. It wasn't centered or anything
<zequence> Also, it's not 100% done yet
<zequence> I haven't yet fixed the logo exactly in the middle
<zequence> And I want to change the hue
<zequence> These two work really well I think. https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/Artwork/RockTheme
<zequence> But I'm not sure if the ration and size is the best. 
 * smartboyhw claps for zequence 
<smartboyhw> zequence, however do we need to wait for ScottL to pick the wallpaper or?
<smartboyhw> After all he's the one organizing the artworks
<zequence> smartboyhw: I think we can just go ahead. We'll just be chaning the wallpaper for now. And it's only for this release
<smartboyhw> zequence, oh ok
<zequence> For the future, we need to put more effort on the artwork, and have a look at all that is included
<smartboyhw> zequence, so do we want to do the change today?
<smartboyhw> zequence, and https://launchpad.net/~ubuntustudio-dev/+archive/ubuntustudio-meta-testing what is this?
 * smartboyhw wonders why it's bold
<zequence> smartboyhw: That was just a temporary PPA for testing the meta when I was changing it
<smartboyhw> zequence, oh
<zequence> I think it would be good if we could have any changes in before bet1
<zequence> beta1*
<smartboyhw> zequence, /me is surprised that len-1304 isn't in the LP US Testing team...
 * smartboyhw adds it in
<smartboyhw> s/it/him/
<kubotu> smartboyhw meant: "adds him in"
<zequence> I'm looking through the web if I can find some good looking ones
<smartboyhw> zequence, :)
<smartboyhw> Oh no our dear old astraljava went bye
<zequence> I updated my Ubuntu development install yesterday. Icons and wallpaper management broke
<zequence> Sorry, Ubuntu Studio dev install
<zequence> I wouldn't recommend anyone to upgrade between releases
<smartboyhw> zequence, uh hum we are supposed to test it......
<smartboyhw> For Beta 1
<smartboyhw> Or do we simply remove them!?
<zequence> Perfectly alright to test
<zequence> And it may even succeed. Doesn't mean it's something we should recommend
<zequence> If it doesn't we should fix it of course
<smartboyhw> OK
<len-1304> zequence, I did this more as a backup in case no one else got to it.
<zequence> len-1304: Ok. What kind of resolution do you have on that desktop?
<zequence> btw, Debian is going through their annual Project Lead Elections http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel-announce/2013/03/msg00003.html
<zequence> The first name of that list (doesn't seem willing to become project lead) http://www.debian.org/vote/2004/platforms/algernon
<zequence> Ah, that was 2004
<smartboyhw> zequence, LOL
<zequence> Sorry :)
<zequence> Maybe he's more willing now, 9 years later
<smartboyhw> zequence, :)
<len-1304> I used the same rez as the old one. I off centered the COF because I thought it was only showing the top left corner of the desk.
<len-1304> I realized you might change the hue, but because I was only using the center of it... the whole thig looks a lot lighter
<zequence> len-1304: No, I mean, what resolution do you have for your screen :) ?
<len-1304> My screen? 1680x1050
<len-1304> Or the screen on the slide? 450X410
<zequence> I'm just wondering how the wallpaper got to be so zoomed in
<len-1304> It is not zoomed or shrunk , I just cropped to fit.
<len-1304> I left it that way on purpose because I felt for the slide it shows nothing else.
<zequence> Ok, I see what you were thinking there. It looks a bit weird to me though
<zequence> I think either just do something else, or use a normal look
<len-1304> Scott did the same thing last time, but then the whole thing was bigger to begin with
<zequence> I mean, a normal, default zoom/ration
<zequence> Did we have a shot at the menu, let me look..
<len-1304> all I did was keep the top panel and add the bottom
<len-1304> Basically so long as the resulting image is 450x410 it'll work
<zequence> I think we should make a shot to show the menu instead
<zequence> The detail in the wallpaper doesn't matter IMO. It's just a shot of the desktop
<zequence> And the menu is worth showcasing
<len-1304> No problem. If you send the message to as an attachment I can drop it in.
<len-1304> Add a png as an attachment I meant
 * len-1304 was up too late last night...
<smartboyhw> len-1304, oh
<len-1304> Anyway the other slides are fixed. It is just the one graphic that needs to be done.
<len-1304> zequence, how about if I do the menu and panel full size and drop the BG under it centered?
<len-1304> zequence, got email back from Sean Bolton. He feels the desktop integration can be done by the packagers. so the Hexter desktop file has been added after somewhere.
<len-1304> I'll have a look at the debian package later and see if it is there... 
<zequence> Let me just calm myself down after attempting to use image paste services, and the one I usually use is hacked, and the rest rely on Java, which I didn't have
<len-1304>  :)
<len-1304> zequence, for what it's worth, the grey BG ends up more the same shade as the theme bg.
<len-1304> zequence, do you want the slide to be zoomed way out? or can I make it pixel for pixel?
<len-1304> I think if we are going to ""showcase" the menu it needs to be pixel for pixel or the menu will be too small to really see.
<len-1304> I have hovered over the graphics menu item because:
<len-1304> I wanted something not audio.
<len-1304> we have more graphics people hanging around than any of the others.
<zequence> len-1304: I just took a shot of the desktop
<zequence> I guess one could take a closeup of the menu instead
<zequence> I'd think our main user base are audio users, but doesn't matter to me which menu is displayed
<zequence> the audio menu is the most custom
<zequence> I see plymoth on my machine, btw
<zequence> I think it depends on the graphic card or something
<len-1304> I see it too, but I have heard comments from people with band new machines who say it just flashes on and off very quick.
<len-1304> I chose the graphics menu because I would like to see us move from being audio centred to covering all the workflows.
<len-1304> I would like to attract more people to contribute from other areas.
<len-1304> Looking at the menu, It is kinda plain, mostly text on grey.
<len-1304> I think using the menu for our first screen is a bad Idea
<zequence> Then use a pic the entire desktop
<zequence> Was there some problem with keeping the ratio for those slides?
<len-1304> zequence, I would like to take the COF from the centre of one of the desktops and expand it so it looks like it is a symbol.
<zequence> If you edit the look of the desktop, it won't look like our desktop
<zequence> So, if you want to showcase the COF, just showcase the COF
<len-1304> That is what I meant
<len-1304> !pastebin
<ubottu> For posting multi-line texts into the channel, please use http://paste.ubuntu.com | To post !screenshots use http://imagebin.org/?page=add | !pastebinit to paste directly from command line | Make sure you give us the URL for your paste - see also the channel topic.
<zequence> I don't agree that the menu doesn't work though
<zequence> It's just a slide show
<len-1304> http://imagebin.org/249743
<len-1304> I think some thing like this
<len-1304> zequence, ^^
<zequence> I could redo the wallpaper with a bigger COF. 
<zequence> It just puts a lot of focus on the wallpaper
<zequence> But, I guess that's ok
<zequence> That's the old wallpaper, isn't it?
<zequence> never mind
<len-1304> I am just talking about the first slide
<zequence> I know you are
<len-1304> If we want to show of the custom menu, we should do a slide that just does that.
<len-1304> But the first slide just has to say ubuntu studio
<len-1304> I am willing to try to make another slide to show menus
<zequence> len-1304: http://imagebin.org/249749
<zequence> I think that works just fine
<zequence> The slideshow is something the user reads while installing
<len-1304> Ok I can use that one.
<len-1304> The size will probably work just fine
<zequence> The width is ok, but the height shorter, so I'm guessing there should be no problems
<len-1304> There is a background behind.
<zequence> Are you saying there's a frame which you need to fit perfectly?
<len-1304> No
<len-1304> I need to try it to see
<len-1304> Oh, I have the package on my other computer... Back in a bit
<zequence> len-1304: You know how to do it, right? I just had a look at that: ./test-slideshow.sh ubuntustudio
<len-1304> Ya, but it is on the other machine
<zequence> Looks ok to me
<zequence> I prefer the blue wallpaper
<zequence> You just need some kind of color
<Len-nb> I was going to use what you sent me
<Len-nb> I agree
<zequence> len-1304: Do you know where the default wallpaper is set up?
<zequence> in our source, I mean
<zequence> I'm thinking we should just go ahead and do it. If someone disagrees, we can see about changing it between the betas
<Len-nb> It will require the change of two packages
<Len-nb> I think the image goes in look and the setting is in settings
<Len-nb> Do youn 
<Len-nb> want it in lightdm as well?
<zequence> Yes
<zequence> But, I think it should be there by default now
<zequence> It changes when you change wallpapers
<zequence> However, there's some sort of bug there. The default wallpaper flashes just before the new one is loaded
<zequence> I'm working on adding the wallpaper to -look
<Len-nb> No lightdm is separate
<Len-nb> Ok, I can do settings later.
<Len-nb> I have updated the slideshow, I will send the merge request later.
<Len-nb> I have to go now though I have practice and playing
<Len-nb> zequence, ^
<Len-nb> zequence, BTW I think anyone can link my branch.
<zequence> Len-nb: Have fun
<zequence> Len-nb: I updated and prepared for a new release for both packages
<zequence> Len-nb: Coudn't find anything related to lightgdm, so if you know something I don't, you'll need to fix that
<zequence> I asked the Xubuntu guys, and they tell me it's done from the user account service
<zequence> Which would mean setting the default desktop background is enough
<zequence> ..but I know there's supposed to be some lightgdm config, just that I can't figure out where in an Ubuntu Studio installation it would be
<len-1304> I'll find it. It needs to be set so that it works for sure the first time. I wonder what happens if there is more than one user and they have different wallpapers
<len-1304> This might be a useful page for those wanting to do a text install: http://maketecheasier.com/install-a-minimal-ubuntu-on-old-laptop/2012/02/24 An ok tutorial for installing from mini.iso
<zequence> micahg: To get our new default wallpaper in, we'd need to get two packages updated. I've prepared them for release, but I would also like to ask you for a quick tip on a workflow, for the future. Not sure we're doing everything right now.
<zequence> Here's 1. lp:~ubuntustudio-dev/ubuntustudio-default-settings/UbuntuStudio
<zequence> and 2. lp:~ubuntustudio-dev/ubuntustudio-look/UbuntuStudio
<zequence> len-1304: btw, I added both wallpapers, but made the blue version default
<zequence> micahg: So, basically, I'd like to prepare so that we take care of all of our packages ourselves, to the point where we ask someone to upload it for us. And I'd just like to know what would be the best way to go about, in simple steps, updating the source, and then preparing the package
<Len-nb> zequence, there will be three packages :P
<zequence> Len-nb: Ah, right. The slides
<Len-nb> Plus the lightdm-theme
<Len-nb> zequence, I am thinking we should keep a copy of slides in our set of branches
<Len-nb> Thing is it would most likey always be out of date
<Len-nb> Maybe not such a great idea
<zequence> micahg: So, when we make changes, we bzr commit each change separately with a wise commit msg. And when we are ready to release, we prepare the package, but how would be the best way. Really, just a few example commands for a workflow would be enough to give me the idea
<zequence> Len-nb: Yeah, we should just have our own packages there
<Len-nb> zequence, how do I do a merge  request slideshow?
<zequence> Len-nb: Is there a bzr branch for it? I would merge it there. But, one can also just give someone a debdiff I think, and they can update it right away
<Len-nb> How do I do that?
<Len-nb> zequence, make a debdiff?
<zequence> Len-nb: Let me write it down 
<zequence> I'll start a wiki page about it
<Len-nb> OK, I'm busy for a bit anyway.
<Len-nb> zequence, micahg ubuntustudio-lightdm-theme is updated to new background
 * Len-nb wanders off to lunch
<zequence> Len-nb: Ah, there was a package called that
<zequence> Len-nb: I've only done this once, so I might have the wrong idea about a lot of details, but this is essentially what I did with micahg last time https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/DebDiff
<zequence> However, looking at the source, it seems different people are uploading changes using bzr, I would presume
<zequence> So, probably a bzr merge should be ok
<zequence> I mean, looking at the changelog
<Len-nb> zequence, I can think of some reasons not to do a debdiff in this case.
<Len-nb> This package is universal to all flavours. Making a release ready diff might stomp over another flavour's qued change.
<zequence> Well, you can get the source from bzr too
<zequence> But, I'm still voting for a merge
<Len-nb> zequence, the place i want to merge to has a merge place to merge that to but my page has no place to merge to that.
<zequence> Len-nb: I don't remember, but it should work, as long as you created a branch off the branch you are trying to merge with
<Len-nb> zequence, I had to change my branch to be associated with the right project.
<Len-nb> Merge is proposed.
<zequence> Len-nb: You could ask for a sponsor in one of the channels. don't know which one would be best suitable. Paste the merge request
<Len-nb> zequence, I was going to ask that next :)  I think what I need is a reviewer.
<Len-nb> Ok, the web page says "Merge proposals to package source branches will automatically subscribe the ~ubuntu-branches team, which should be enough to reach an Ubuntu developer who can review and sponsor your package change."
<zequence> Yes, but there's no saying if someone will pick it up quickly or not
<zequence> If you're lucky, someone will realize we'd like to have it quickly, and they see to uploading it
<Len-nb> They were pretty quick to ask if I could fix it :)
<Len-nb> There are a lot of channels around, release is real quiet. Moto is too.
<zequence> It's Sunday too, and you notice that it's not a workday
<zequence> From channel traffic, but also from a big decrease in mail traffic
<Len-nb> Ya that was my thought too
<zequence> The Beta 1 build I think was to start at 21:00 UTC tomorrow, so that leaves us quite a lot of time to get things uploaded
<Len-nb> Ok, I think I will just leave things as is.
<Len-nb> Next time I think I will add it ubuntustudio-dev. That way more than one person can work on it.
<Len-nb> zequence, BTW http://developer.ubuntu.com/packaging/html/udd-sponsorship.html is quite helpful.
<Len-nb> they suggest doing the merge request first and then if a debdif is requested, it can be downloaded from the merge request.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2014-03-03
<zequence> Been busy with other stuff today. Will be back tomorrow about the LTS proposal
#ubuntustudio-devel 2014-03-06
<zequence> I'm dropping any development of applications right now, including our ubiquity plugin - however, I'm planning on releasing those as backports for the first point release of the LTS
<zequence> We're getting close to UI freeze, so there are only two things I want to focus on right now. Artwork and package selection (which I will have a look at during this week - we need to go through what we are missing)
<zequence> ..then update our meta package
<zequence> linux-lowlatency is not longer caused by this bug 1279081
<ubottu> bug 1279081 in linux (Ubuntu Trusty) "linux freezes with threadirqs parameter when rt73usb is loaded" [High,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1279081
<zequence> threadirqs is back before beta 2
#ubuntustudio-devel 2014-03-08
<cub> Long time no see! And no zequence?
#ubuntustudio-devel 2015-03-02
<zequence> I managed to wipe out a few weeks of work..
<holstein> zequence: :/
#ubuntustudio-devel 2015-03-03
<zequence> All of my recent work on -controls disappeared.
<zequence> It's like with accidents. You don't change infrastructure until someone dies
<zequence> Using duja-dep now. Works, but freezes my whole system when it uploads :(
<zequence> deja-dup, I mean
<DalekSec> Use cyphertite! :P
<zequence> DalekSec: Not bad prices
<DalekSec> Oh heh, you did look.  Yes, I've been eyeing them for a while, even put the whole stack in a PPA (open source client side.)
<zequence> FIrst glance, looks like something you could live with
<zequence> It's been around for a while. Doesn't seem like they are too active with the Ubuntu packages
<zequence> DalekSec: conformal, right?
<zequence> Going to give it a try
<DalekSec> Yes sir.  And they do exist on IRC too.
<zequence> Cool
<zequence> DalekSec: Which and where is the irc channel?
<DalekSec> https://opensource.conformal.com/wiki/IRC_server #conformal on irc.conformal.com (SSL required.)
<zequence> DalekSec: Thanks
<DalekSec> Sure, plan on building the vivid package now too.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2015-03-04
<holstein> zequence: maybe if we team up and say it a few more times ;
<holstein> ;)
<zequence> holstein: Yeah, it's hard for the newbies :)
#ubuntustudio-devel 2016-03-07
<krytarik> The same for Polkit though.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2016-03-08
<krytarik> This might have been forgotten: https://code.launchpad.net/~robert-ancell/ubuntustudio-default-settings/lightdm-config-in-usr/+merge/233124
<knome> zequence? or somebody else with access to the website?
<zequence> knome: Hi
<knome> hey
<knome> i resolved my issue already, but thanks anyway :)
<knome> (was discussing with canonical IS about getting admin rights for the finnish loco for our own blog...)
<zequence> knome: Oh. Not sure how I could have helped anyway. I only have access to the WP installation of ubuntustudio.org. Not to the server itself.
<knome> yeah, but you have admin access to the wp instance
<knome> ..
<knome> ...which is what we were talking about anyway
<knome> not file access
<knome> i understand that's out of bounds
<knome> but the situation was resolved when i pointed out i had admin access elsewhere
<knome> maybe he was just unaware of the policy, the finnish loco seemingly didn't have admin access before
<zequence> Ok
#ubuntustudio-devel 2016-03-10
<zequence> OvenWerk1: There's some problem with dvdstyler
<zequence> Ubuntu devs are questioning that we keep it at all
<zequence> There's an unmaintained lib in the archive, held only by dvdstyler. The Ubuntu devs want to get rid of it. 
<zequence> Got removed from Debian https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=813151
<ubottu> Debian bug 813151 in ftp.debian.org "RM: wxsvg -- RoM; unmaintained, library without rev deps" [Normal,Open]
<zequence> Are we ok with removing dvdstyler?
<OvenWerk1> zequence: do we have anything to replace dvdstyler? The graphics part I do not care about
<OvenWerk1>  think other programs can mke CD/DVD inserts anyway. but it does create DVD menus and file systems. We seem to be running into the same problem as with everything, once it works the dev stops "deving"
<knome> other apps can do that, but ultimately, they are all bad :)
<knome> dvdstyler doesn't even "work", at least nowhere near perfectly...
<knome> it's still the one i ended up using on my home video DVD project, since it allows most customizability the easiet
<knome> +s
<OvenWerk1> knome: Yes it seems to me the last time I looked into this dvdstyler was the best of the bunch
<OvenWerk1> qdvdauthor hasn't seen updates since 2010...
<OvenWerk1> dvdauthor which is CLI and we do include this... not sure if we do so on purpose or it is pulled in by depends. but it is at least seeing new commits as late as last month.
<OvenWerk1> devedeng is current. (works with GTK3)
<OvenWerk1> but of course ubuntu repos do not have either the old devede (anymore) or the new devedeng which may be one of the few current dvd authoring tools.
<OvenWerk1> zequence: so at the least add dvdauthor to seeds. See if devedeng can be added to the ubuntu repos to replace dvdstyler (may take a cycle) and maybe better, ask those who actually do video editing if they have an opinion... or if they know that one of the other packages we have now will do the job.
<OvenWerk1> zequence: I am wondering if one of the video editors has this function in it.
<OvenWerk1> zequence: as a side note, devedeng does have a ubuntu ppa so making it part of the ubuntu repos may not be so hard. (there is a debian ppa as well)
<knome> then there's bombono
<knome> not sure how useful that is
<OvenWerk1> knome: thankyou installing to look at.
<OvenWerk1> Anyone else who does video creation can you give some input.
<OvenWerk1> knome: bombono seems to do the job ok.
<knome> mhm
<OvenWerk1> I think if I took videos of a wedding, I could make a polished looking DVD with some practice...
<OvenWerk1> My thought is that this would be the main use of this kind of tool. Someone who records events and makes DVDs available. I would think someone making videos in most other contexts would distribute them in other ways such as direct download (youtube for example).
<sakrecoer> re: DVD i tried hard with it for 3 years ago to no avail. In the end i dusted of my old powerbook g4 and burned in iDVD. What next? well, nobody had a DVD player :/
<sakrecoer> i think most people would put a wedding video on some socialnetwork with privacy settings nowadays
<sakrecoer> but if there are options that are functional, it would be nice to have it. DVD is huge in africa for example
<OvenWerk1> sakrecoer: possibly, there are still lots of people who find "operating" a DVD player hard already.
<sakrecoer> OvenWerk1: haha!
<OvenWerk1> sakrecoer: I do not know if putting a DVD directory on a USB drive would make todays DVD players show the menu or not... I should try that next I guess.
<sakrecoer> i failed to specify, the one i tried was DVDstyler
<knome> physical media has its place
<OvenWerk1> sakrecoer: no problem, it seems that is the one we are loosing anyway.
<knome> it's a different thing to have your wedding video on a DVD than on the cloud
<knome> people are attached to physical stuff with certain things
<knome> ...and that's fine
<sakrecoer> well, if a usb is n option, i think the most effective way is to drag and drop the video file upon it
<OvenWerk1> knome: right, giving a box with graphics and DVD is something anyone can deal with
<knome> unless the device you intend to watch the video on doesn't support usb sticks with files
<knome> authoring a DVD also means you can get good looking menus
<knome> files on a USB sticks are just.. files
<knome> the metadata you can attach to them is limited
<sakrecoer> like i said: i'm up for having a DVD production tool.preferably not broken
<OvenWerk1> knome: right that is why I was wondering if the FS was like a DVD if the player would tend to show the menu.
<OvenWerk1> bombono does seem to work.
<sakrecoer> :) cool! will try it!
<knome> most media players can at least open an ISO like a DVD
<knome> i don't know about setting an USB stick like a DVD... autorun isn't exactly used with them commonly
<sakrecoer> i don't think dvd will last long in europe, no matter how nice it is to have a packaging for wedding video. i believe in printed fotobooks with private urls for that prupose
<sakrecoer> the book containging the private urls to multimedia.
<knome> they said the same about vinyls and audio CD's...
<sakrecoer> but li insist, i think it would be nice to have a dvd production tool
<sakrecoer> well, time will tell :) as far as i can see: yes there is revival of money in vinyl, but it is very much a niche
<sakrecoer> anwyas, its just my opinoin and its offtopic
<sakrecoer> :) dvd is cool! i like it! wouldn't buy, and don't know to whom sell tehm.. but its a nice format
<sakrecoer> but isn't it too late for 16.04? or have i got it wrong?
<sakrecoer> for now, i'd say: remove the broken thing if it is still possible
<knome> whether it's subject to the feature freeze i don't know (maybe it is), but since it's not a core or essential package for most of your users, you should be able to get an exception easily
<sakrecoer> cool! :) 
<knome> so yes it is "late", but no it isn't late
<sakrecoer> .. exception for adding bombono, or for removing dvdstyler?
<knome> well, the whole operation
<sakrecoer> wow!!! :) that is great news!
<knome> the removing stuff likely isn't subject to FF really, but adding new software might be
<knome> OTOH, you are simply replacing one that doesn't work with one that works, so it might be considered a "bugfix", though of course a big one...
<knome> ultimately the release team doesn't usually decline exception requests if it only affects one flavor and you guarantee you will take care of all potential regressions
<knome> or unless it's really late in the cycle
<knome> like, the last week
<sakrecoer> ok! :) good to know (btw i still play CD, vinyl and tape-cassette at home :) )
<knome> i mostly store my CD's, i've all of them copied to my HDD
<sakrecoer> :)
<sakrecoer> i fully agree about packaging being nice. i guess i never developed any relation to dvd, if i had i would probably consider it deifferently
<OvenWerk1> sakrecoer: I think since "they" want to remove a package we depend on, suggesting a replacement rather than straight removal should be ok. We are effectively saying yes we want/need that function, but if it would be easier for you we are willing to use this instead.
<sakrecoer> OvenWerk1: sounds good to me, but let's see what zequence thinks :)
<zequence> Just got home, and dead tired, so I'll have a look at that DVD stuff tomorrow. Hopefully someone has replied to the mail list with something constructive. Myself - I haven't done DVDs for 10 years or so, and then I only did very simple ones.
<DalekSec> I was only pinged because I was the last to upload it, and I was only the last to upload because someone asked me to look at it.  I've never actually used it. :3
#ubuntustudio-devel 2016-03-11
<benjidass> Hope this question is appropriate for this IRC channel... I am running U.S. 15.10 and I can't seem to blacklist drivers.  I am adding lines such as "blacklist xhcd_hcd" to my /etc/modprobe.d/blacklist.conf file and restarting.  However, according to the output of "lspci -vv", it seems that the drivers I am trying to blacklist are still being used.  Can anyone help point out the flaw in my approach?
<krytarik> benjidass: The support channel is #ubuntustudio - and I'd even suggest #ubuntu, because this isn't flavor-specific.
<benjidass> krytarik: im sorry, i wasn't totally sure. still fairly new to IRC.  Take care.
<madeinkobaia> Hi all :-)
<knome> does ubuntu studio have a good reason to hold on to xfce4-volumed or would you be willing to let it go
<zequence> knome: Are you dropping it?
<OvenWerk1> knome: what does it do?
<OvenWerk1> Hmm, knome, my wife uses that functionallity... does xubuntu use something else to do the same thing?
<zequence> I'll be unavailable for 24h or so. Will read backscroll.
<knome> OvenWerk1, the pulseaudio equivalent
<OvenWerk1> knome: it seems to work well for her (she has xubuntu 16.04) so I would suggest it should be no problem for us to drop volumd as well.
<OvenWerk1> knome: is there any settings we would need to change? or does PA just work?
<knome> i'm asking this because it's dropped from debian and -volumed uses the ols gstreamer0.10
<knome> i don't think any settings changes are required, the pa one should just work
<OvenWerk1> knome: is there any kind of freeze we need to worry about for dropping that?
 * OvenWerk1 can't keep up with this part of ubuntu.
<knome> as with the dvd authoring stuff, i'm not really sure where app replacements fall; that said, if there's a freeze exception required, it's likely that we will get it anyway
<knome> since it means one more outdated package can then ultimately be removed from the archive
<OvenWerk1> cool.
<zequence> As long as the change is in our original source, I can upload anything up until Final Freeze, basically
<zequence> Which means, we decide for ourselves
<knome> of course you decide yourself :)
<knome> we're dropping it because we don't really use it any more
<zequence> I mean, as far as Freezed goes
<zequence> Freezes*
<knome> i don't know if there are situations where you might need that (to avoid pulseaudio for example)
<sakrecoer> gstream <3 perhaps that will get luisbg to get busy with us again ? :)
<sakrecoer> i guess some users will be a bit lost at first: PA isn't the easiest to learn, but through time i'm sure it has instaured a few habbits ..
<sakrecoer> however, i'm a ferevant adherant of the concetps of "the only constant is change", so i'm in favour if it doesn't mean we all are going to have to stress ourselves out of mind
<luisbg> sakrecoer: :)
<luisbg> jack is better with real-time than pulseuadio, though I haven't checked in years
<sakrecoer> luisbg: i wouldn't put my hand on it either, but i also think jack is better if there are creative ambitions with sound. Not that PA would be unuseable, but jack seems to be made with creativity in mind, where PA is made for delivering sound out of a computer.
<sakrecoer> put my hand on it: as in bet my hand. hehe, sorry
<luisbg> sakrecoer: pulseaudio does a better job handling multiple streams with multiple output devices
<luisbg> specially when you enter the realm of bluetooth headsets that connect/disconnect, and you want to remember the settings from last time
<luisbg> and what to do when things change (devices available, streams, etc)
<sakrecoer> wait a minute, did i read everything wrong here? what is being dropped and what is being used?
<sakrecoer> i'm lost in the backlog... knome, would you mind specifying? what would replace xfce4-volumed?
<OvenWerk1> sakrecoer: pulse already does the same job, so dropping -volumd shouold have no effect...
<OvenWerk1> PA is ok for some low latency (down to about 10ms) but even there it just igores trouble so the user/application has no idea it is missing some audio... maybe not the same amount from left to right.
<OvenWerk1> PA is ok with more than one device... provided one of them is not jack. On my personal system I remove PA's ability to see any ALSA device. I rather add other devices to jack (zita-ajbridge) and let PA see devices only through jack creating extra pa-jack bridges as needed.
<OvenWerk1> PA makes a good frontend for jack for desktop work, but I have found that if jack is set to less than 256/2 skype has trouble. I have heard that the ALSA loopback may do this better, but I have not tried it personally.
<OvenWerk1> 128/2 in jack is the very top end for live softsynth/effects work, so being able to vary jacks buffer size depending on workflow seems desirable.
<OvenWerk1> (256/2 has an echoy sound when used to monitor a mic for example)
<OvenWerk1> I can't comment on bluetooth headset use as I don't have one to try (donations welcome ;)  ) It would depend on what I was using them for. I do not know that there are any BT headphones that would be good for things like mixdown anyway. They might be nice for tracking if the latency is low enough. I have wired phones all over the place and enough wiring to run them all.
<OvenWerk1> Personally I can see no reason to not use PA for desktop stuff. It really does just work. It generally just works with jack as it's back end too. There is one bug I am aware of with freewheel mode, but that may be one of the versions of jackd we have shipped (that is it is a known bug from years gone by).
<OvenWerk1> unloading the pa-jack bridge gives a clean PA-less system that still doesn't break the desktop, but just silences it.
<OvenWerk1> A jack3 that has a PA like frontend for desktop audio would be the very best solution I think.
<sakrecoer> OvenWerk1: i don't reallt get the xubuntu change still: ok, PA remains, check. but will there still be a volume control at hand at anytime without xfce4-volumed? anytime as in on the desktop menu?
<sakrecoer> i look forward to jack3, i'm naively hoping it will be a joint of jack1 and jack2...
<sakrecoer> but better
<sakrecoer> volume control should be at hand anytime, i think it is A-B of a desktop. while i still don't understand the effects of removing xfce4-volumed, i trust xubuntu to togetherstand on that one.
<sakrecoer> volume control in a jack realm is deifferent, becuase jack implies a much more conscious approach to sound
<sakrecoer> this is also why i like the fact that ubuntustudio has the pa-jack bridge: you may not be too conscious about sound, and still manoover the os sound.
<sakrecoer> luisbg: is there anything you can do to get those gstream 0.10 used by xfce4-volumd updated? :) missundertand me right, i'm a bit blue about these things, but since i know you are involved in gstream, i'd rather ask and risk looking stupid for a moment than remain wondering
<knome> sidi, the author of xfce4-volumed, explained earlier that gst1.0 does not have a mixer interface thus this update isn't really possible
<sakrecoer> knome: ok. but will there be any volume control at hand on dekstop on xubuntu (not counting function+volumes keys on keyboard)
<knome> pavucontrol, yes
<sakrecoer> :) knome: and it will be available without starting any application?
<sakrecoer> i mean, like, actively starting applications as in open menu, find entry lower volume
#ubuntustudio-devel 2016-03-12
<knome> well, there's the sound menu for the indicator area
<sakrecoer> or rather:  will it be as is now: click volume icon lower volume
<sakrecoer> ok cool
<knome> i don't know what ubuntu studio is doing with those packages, reall
<knome> the reason why this is brought up is that the package is removed from debian
<knome> we haven't really used it for a while, so it's a no-brainer to drop it from our seed
<sakrecoer> ok, i'm just trying to understand how it will impact us
<sakrecoer> or us=ubuntustudio
<knome> i don't have the exact answer for that, but you could always boot up an ISO and remove that package and see what happens
<sakrecoer> ok, i will try that... how do i remove a package from a live ISO?
<knome> afaiu, as you would normally.
<sakrecoer> sudo purge xfce4-volumd ?
<sakrecoer> yep, i'm a post-n00b like that, learning as you type :)
<knome> or you can remove the package from your own installation
<knome> if it breaks something, you can always add it back
<sakrecoer> ok
<sakrecoer> thank you knome ! :) i still don't realy undertsand what is at stake, since i note no difference...
<sakrecoer> but i guess it is good sign,,,
<sakrecoer> except of course what you said: an unmaintained package less to maintain
<OvenWerk1> sakrecoer: I have a computer in the house with xubuntu 16.04, which does not have -volumed in it. The volume keys on the keyboard still work as does the systray/indicator volume control. So we should also be able to remove -volumed with no effect except to maybe need to change a setting in the indicator... which appears to have no settings anyway :) so we should be good.
<sakrecoer> OvenWerk1 good! :)
<sakrecoer> i tried with another user on my dev install, i can't find any difference. it would be nice to grasp what its about, but time will teach me :)
<OvenWerk1> sakrecoer: don't hold your breath on jack3. The development on it is still moving, but very slow. One of jackd1's top devs is quitting to focus on other projects for example. Also as applications are becoming more monolythic... people are returning to raw alsa.
<sakrecoer> :) change is the only constant! :D
<OvenWerk1> plugins are becoming very important.
<sakrecoer> plugins? as? audio plugins?
<OvenWerk1> yup
<sakrecoer> :) yeah, well, they have been for a while, haven't they?
<sakrecoer> which plugins would you reckon are.. hm.. mandatory, OvenWerk1 ?
<OvenWerk1> the ones you use ;)
<sakrecoer> haha! my pugins are pugged into my physical mixer... that why i ask
<sakrecoer> but to answer you, i need compressors and time effect: delay, reverb
<OvenWerk1> sakrecoer: a keyboard player would be lost with no synth plugins, a guitar player will be wanting cabinet simulator
<sakrecoer> we do have badass synths tho, don't we?
<sakrecoer> guitar realm, i'm a bit... well i don't know much about it
<OvenWerk1> The calf plugin set sort of covers the basics, but I prefer the x42 EQ or the eq10q set. Fons reverb is widely used
<OvenWerk1> I do like some of the plate revers though.
<sakrecoer> synth realm, i fell the only thing linux synths are missing is some supercool dude rocking them out
<OvenWerk1> I found the last bit I did I ended up using guitarix as standalone and inserting it. It still doesn't sound as good (to me) as my tech21 cabinet simulator into a real speaker and miced
<OvenWerk1> I would imagine a real amp would sound even better.
<sakrecoer> sound beter, as in: standing next to it, hearing on stage, listening to a record or just in average?
<OvenWerk1> setBfree is probably the best B3 emulator around
<OvenWerk1> sound better as in listening/recording through speaker/headphones.
<sakrecoer> setBfree is very nice indeed, but i feel the same about all the synth we have in the GNU/linux realm. setBfree being an exception because a few cool dudes agree
<OvenWerk1> Some of that could be my settings in guitarix though
<OvenWerk1> yoshimi is a favourit of many people too.
<OvenWerk1> There are some sounds that are hard to beat a DX7 (or emulator) for.
<sakrecoer> hehe... dx7 is a pure love/hate specimen
<sakrecoer> in the ananlogue synth world, you better not mention it too much :D
<OvenWerk1> anyone without an axe to grind has respect for them.
<sakrecoer> except maybe in the hands of legowelt the dx7 becomes kindof cool
<sakrecoer> resoect? haha! nonono... well, at least not were i'm about
<sakrecoer> but hey, were i'm about is not the hole world
<OvenWerk1> The are keyboard players who have played them for years and state they still feel they are just getting to know them. The biggest problem was that most people used only stock sounds and did no programming.
<sakrecoer> i've been arround computers my hole life, i still feel like i'm just getting to know them
<OvenWerk1> The DX takes time to get to know. I have forgotten most of what I did figure out.
<sakrecoer> there is so much mysticism arround sound
<sakrecoer> just like computers
<sakrecoer> i'd like to see through that. i believe a hit can be made with two hands and i microphone
<sakrecoer> but i don't want to disrespect computer made music
<sakrecoer> i think this is where we lack something in the GNU/Linux realm: computer made compositions
<OvenWerk1> Synths can be used two ways: 1) as a way to replay an expensive group of musicians 2) as a method of making unique sounds
<OvenWerk1> I have more respect for the second, but often fall into the first group in my own use.
<sakrecoer> i feel you. i think i do like you, because at the end of the day, no matter how original i think my "song" is, i got the idea from inspiration
<sakrecoer> inspiraiotn as in, something fitting into my taste made up of everything i like about music
<sakrecoer> maybe we should jump into ubustu-OT
<sakrecoer> ? :)
<OvenWerk1> I should probably go make my family something to eat.
<sakrecoer> that sounds like a master plan!
<sakrecoer> i'm sure it will benefit everyone in your family, hence it will benefit ubuntustudio too :)
<sakrecoer> a happy and relaxed OvenWerk1 is an excellent OvenWerk1 
<sakrecoer> i should do something similar
<sakrecoer> looking forward to read you! BIG UP!
<knome> sakrecoer, zequence: i'm sending a ticket to IS to review the community theme; do you want it available for ubuntustudio.org ASAP?
<sakrecoer> knome: not sure we in a hurry with it, i understood it would be nice to have it for release, which is pretty soon anyways ;) what do you think zequence ?
<sakrecoer> knome: any plan to use noto on the template?
<knome> not currently
<knome> and i would consider "for release" ASAP...
<knome> sakrecoer, let me know your email and i'll add you to the requestors for a ticket
<sakrecoer> knome: sent it to you in a query
<knome> done, you should get mail about it quickly
<sakrecoer> cool!
<knome> the ticket does depend on the theme getting code review, so it likely won't land that quickly
<sakrecoer> thanks knome !
<sakrecoer> hi cfhowlett :) you said you wanted to write me something?
<knome> np
<cfhowlett> errrr, I forget ... that *was* days ago :)
<sakrecoer> :) good to see you anyways cfhowlett 
<cfhowlett> Likewise!
<luisbg> knome: gstreamer 1.0 does have a mixing interface
<luisbg> knome: if you send me an email with a summary of the issue with xfce4-volumd, I can look at their code and see how it can be fixed/updated
<luisbg> maybe get in contact with the maintainer
<sakrecoer> so, krytarik, i have fixed the fonts, renamed "font-meta" to "fonts". perhaps i should push to a junk branch so you can check?
<sakrecoer> i did a commit -m for each change
<krytarik> Do you have pastebinit installed?  Just paste the diff through that.
<sakrecoer> for some reason i remember being told to do so, but i'm not sure about that memory
<sakrecoer> yeah i have it
<krytarik> "-m" is just for specifying the commit message directly, rather than using a text editor.
<krytarik> So: "bzr diff | pastebinit".
<krytarik> Also, check "bzr stat" before.
<sakrecoer> ah thanks! i tried to figure it out by myself first, but thats faster :)
<sakrecoer> what should i look for with bzr stat?
<krytarik> If there is something "unknown", for example.
<krytarik> Should just be "modified" and "renamed" in this case.
<sakrecoer> ah yeah, good! i had forgotten the last commit :p
<sakrecoer> hmm.. "you are trying to send an empty document..
<krytarik> lol
<krytarik> Because you already committed the changes.
<sakrecoer> ah...
<krytarik> Wait.
<krytarik> If you did only one commit: "bzr diff -c 1473 | pastebinit".
<sakrecoer> you want the other ones too? i kranked up to 1476 ... :p
<sakrecoer> http://paste.ubuntu.com/15367379/
<krytarik> That'd be "bzr diff -r 1472" then. :D
<krytarik> Good job doing separate commits though. :P
<sakrecoer> :) i believe zequence told me it was the right way
<krytarik> Yes yes, it is! :)
<sakrecoer> ah, i made an --unchanged because i wrote wrong in the comments so 1474 is empty
<sakrecoer> but here is 1475 http://paste.ubuntu.com/15367467/
<sakrecoer> and 1476: http://paste.ubuntu.com/15367479/
<krytarik> Some stuff is missing - for reference again: http://paste.openstack.org/raw/YkyGCb7IKoOOZs1tLIGo/
<krytarik> Also, there shouldn't be empty commits in there, of course.
<krytarik> (Weird Bazaar, even allowing that!)
<sakrecoer> i tried to jsut write another one, and it gave me the option when the commit was empty. and i forgot to relax :D
<krytarik> Yeah, never forget to relax. :D
<sakrecoer> regarding the reference
<sakrecoer> typicaly, now that we renmaed font-meta to "fonts", we would have to update it in there aswell right?
<krytarik> Yep, that's what I did.
<sakrecoer> ok, i'll grep for other ones..
<sakrecoer> seems to be the only file in there. are we sure no other things will have broken links because this name-change?
<sakrecoer> or rather, can we verify it somehow?
<krytarik> Umm, did you "grep 'font-meta' *"?  Also: "sed -i 's/font-meta/fonts/' *"
<sakrecoer> hm, i did grep 'font-meta' but i figured ubuntustudio-font-meta is something else..?
<sakrecoer> i'll do your comando kungfu now
<krytarik> And I suggest to commit that along with renaming that file.
<sakrecoer> ok
<krytarik> Nope, that's what is produced based on it at the end - after updating the metapackage part as well.
<krytarik> That's why it's confusing to call it "-meta" there.
<sakrecoer> "And I suggest to commit that along with renaming that file" the font-meta to fonts, right? but that i did already, so it will have to be another commit..
<krytarik> Yes.  And well, you can still unwind and redo things - just for practice, you know. :P
<sakrecoer> nice! hmm.. did the kungfu command, but bzr stat says nothing
<sakrecoer> it gave me an error message about "doc" being a folder..
<krytarik> Yeah...
<krytarik> Ah yes, that's why it stumbled here ealier too - sed doesn't like that. :P
<sakrecoer> yeah, first contact with sed for me..
<sakrecoer> it didn't do anything as it hit that error.
<sakrecoer> looking in man for a recursive flag or something.
<sakrecoer> bb in 5...
<krytarik> * earlier - and here instead: "sed -i 's/font-meta/fonts/' font-meta graphics publishing STRUCTURE"
<sakrecoer> tahnks :) hehe, i'm considering tattooing "relax" on my forarm.. 
<krytarik> hahaha
<krytarik> Seriously though, it really helps me too - slow down, things will go much smoother and better. :)
<sakrecoer> yeah :)
<krytarik> Helps with the typing as well - only sometimes you get carried away still, like above. :P
<sakrecoer> hehe.. *blushing* ye, i'm good at getting carried away while typing
<krytarik> LOL - I know.
<sakrecoer> here is the last diff http://paste.ubuntu.com/15367858/
<knome> luisbg, i'm not familiar with the code myself (or with most code), but you can contact the original author (steve dodier) in irc by the nickname sidi, if you are interested in making this work again :)
<krytarik> sakrecoer: Hmm, what's with 'STRUCTURE'?
<sakrecoer> boom! good catch :D
<sakrecoer> there WILL be a tattoo :D
<krytarik> hahaha
<sakrecoer> hm.. funny tho, i had included the file in the sed string..
<sakrecoer> krytarik: right, i had fixed STRUCTURE in 1477
#ubuntustudio-devel 2016-03-13
<sakrecoer> made it manualy just before you gave me the sed string :)
<krytarik> Hah, ok.
<sakrecoer> thanks for watching my back anyways!
<sakrecoer> night y'all! o/
<krytarik> Consider redoing it properly tomorrow though. :P
<krytarik> G'night again.
<sakrecoer> krytarik: redid it properly and commited each step
<krytarik> Yay. \o/
<sakrecoer> To update the metapackage source based on the seeds, i need to get the source from somewhere, could anyone tell me where?
<krytarik> zequence, OvenWerk1: â
<cfhowlett> dare I ask: do we have a default 16.04 wallpaper yet?  kind of curious what our internal artists have come up with ...
<zequence> sakrecoer: I do the meta package update, since it's usually the uploader who does that
<zequence> cfhowlett: Everything that has been done so far has been shown on the mail list, so no new progress, but we heard from madeinkobaia just a couple of days ago, and I'm hoping he will show up some more and perhaps help us out on that front
<zequence> Otherwise, I at least will finish something up, if nothing better has appeared well before release, but perhaps after Final Beta
<zequence> I'll have to review the work on seeds tomorrow. A bit busy this whole weekend. But, it looks good to me so far.
<zequence> Also, seems like there are some alternatives for replacing dvd styler. I will also try those out on monday.
<sakrecoer> ok :) also, cfhowlett and zequence, it is notable that zequence has produced a beautyfull one, i believe you put the link here a couple of weks ago, didn't you zequence 
<cfhowlett> ?!?!
<cfhowlett> I must have missed that one.
<sakrecoer> i believe its this one: https://cloud.mousike.me/index.php/s/QIRWUYfbwu8rkHZ
<krytarik> zequence: Given your prospected phasing out, shouldn't sakrecoer be the uploader too though?  Otherwise: http://paste.openstack.org/raw/P5FG6bGL9vyla8WtmJ0h/
<cfhowlett> simple.  dark.  I like.
<sakrecoer> i think it isn't up to zequence, krytarik. i think i need to be more ancient first. :/
<sakrecoer> which would make a lot of sense, actualy
<krytarik> Sure, but still - needs to taken into account.
<sakrecoer> cfhowlett: isn't it?! :) i love it!
<zequence> krytarik: I don't control upload rights, unfortunately. We don't have a team with upload rights. It's individually granted by the board, I forget the name.
<zequence> I only have upload rights for our own sources. Nothing beyond that
<zequence> Think Ross will get upload rights within the year
<knome> dmb
<zequence> I'm sure sakrecoer will be able to do so as well, at least for our sources, if he just keeps doing the work he is doing now
<knome> packageset upload rights are much easier to get than MOTU or core, sure
<zequence> By our own sources, I mean the original Ubuntu Studio sources. Not our package set, but I hope Ross will get upload rights for our package set.
<bluesabre> greetings everyone
<bluesabre> sakrecoer: I heard from knome that your volume keys work without xfce4-volumed
<bluesabre> I've found that they only work if I have xfce4-volumed or xfce4-pulseaudio-plugin
<bluesabre> with only indicator-sound, they are non-functional
<sakrecoer> hm... bluesabre strange, they are functional here on my machine, and i haven't reinstalled xfce4-volumed..
<bluesabre> and this is with starting a new session post removal?
<sakrecoer> yes
<sakrecoer> ..let me try that again...
<bluesabre> I'll see if others can also test
<sakrecoer> bluesabre: yeah, it works with another session, and another user
<sakrecoer> (i thought you ment another user by new session so i tried that, i removed it friday i think and haven't reinstalled it)
<bluesabre> might be hardware-specific, had knome take a look and it also does not work for him
<sakrecoer> can i provide you with some kindof log or anything bluesabre ?
<bluesabre> sakrecoer: I'll look into it, right now, not really sure what logs might be relevant
<sakrecoer> so, llike i just wrote in #xubuntu-devel, i didn't pay good attention enough: i only tried the sliders, but indeed: the volume keys are *not* working.
<bluesabre> yep, so we'll either need xfce4-volumed or xfce4-pulseaudio-plugin (panel plugin) to handle volume keys
#ubuntustudio-devel 2017-03-08
<toohightocomply> Has anyone messed around with Ubuntu on Azure?
#ubuntustudio-devel 2018-03-05
<studio-devel660> Is there any ETA on a bionic beta for Studio?
#ubuntustudio-devel 2019-03-04
<studiobot> <Eickmeyer> @tsimonq2 Thanks for that. I think I might have everything you asked for. Eight packages total, all of them are at https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntustudio marked as "New/Critical" just to make them easy to find.
<studiobot> <Eickmeyer> Buildlogs, lintian, check-all-the-things, the whole nine yards.
<studiobot> * Eickmeyer didn't even known check-all-the-things was a command you ran.
<studiobot> <tsimonq2> Ok
<studiobot> * Eickmeyer 
<astraljava> "<Eickmeyer> No, we use git." - Really? Am I so far out of the loop, that LP switched from bzr to git?
<OvenWerk1> astraljava: it is in progress, Bzr is still there, but anything getting packaged first gets switched to git.
<astraljava> OvenWerk1: Ok, and what has prompted this change?
<OvenWerk1> astraljava: I really don't know the answer to that. It is good for me as I do other work with git as so have all the tools and only having to remember one set of commands is nice.
 * Eickmeyer waves at Rosco2
<Eickmeyer> Still waiting to hear back from FalkTX about the empty packages. I'm guessing it's a migration thing for KXStudio.
 * Eickmeyer hopes Rosco2's dental recovery is going well
<Rosco2> Thx. WIll find out in a day or so if it was a success this time.
<Rosco2> No problems, I have moved onto the new grub theme.
<Rosco2> As long as both packages are normally installed, there should be no transition problem.
<Rosco2> apt-autoremove should be offered to uninstall it once nothing depends on it.
<Eickmeyer> Rosco2: Good to see you in the chat!
<Eickmeyer> I had done the initial packaging, but FalkTX cleaned it up, and I further refined it so it would build. So, it's a collaboration effort for sure.
<Rosco2> Normally I only get short bursts to do FOSS stuff - so I tend to keep away from IRC so I don't get distracted.
<Rosco2> SOmetimes it is good to be sick
<Eickmeyer> Yeah, unless it's a wake-up call that you've been pushing too hard (had that happen a couple of times).
<Eickmeyer> @tsimonq2: Not sure if you saw, but Rosco2 looks like he's cleaning-up grub2-themes-ubuntustudio, which a lot of others in that list depend on. I'd say, out of all the packages, this one needs the most priority since it's new.
<Eickmeyer> Not to mention a dependency.
<studiobot> <tsimonq2> Ok
 * Eickmeyer is done triaging ancient bugs for now
 * Rosco2 is also done!
<Rosco2> Carla, grub-theme & installer
<Eickmeyer> Woohoo!
<Eickmeyer> @tsimonq2 ^
<Rosco2> Will move on to the others tommorrow night
<Eickmeyer> Rosco2: Carla and the groub-theme might need FFe as well?
<Rosco2> Maybe? I am not sure. They are new packages rather than new features.
<Rosco2> I will  double check
<Rosco2> You are right
<Rosco2> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/FreezeExceptionProcess
<Rosco2> Carla should be accepted without problems as it doesn't affect anything.
<Eickmeyer> Correct, and the grub theme needs to be in there as our theming on the other packages is now dependent on it. However, it shouldn't affect anything other than that.
<Eickmeyer> If you wan't, I'll bug #ubuntu-release about both packages. I did subscribe them already.
 * Eickmeyer will be out for a bit, but if you need me, ping my @Eickmeyer telegram handle here
<Rosco2> We should probably make sure the bugs have all the information asked for in the release process.
<Rosco2> I think most is there, except install log & screenshot
#ubuntustudio-devel 2019-03-05
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerk1: What was the reason you don't have upload rights again?
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerk1: Is there any chance you would be okay with applying for upload rights? We are officially in danger of losing flavor status.
<studiobot> SamuelBanya was removed by: SamuelBanya
#ubuntustudio-devel 2019-03-06
<Eickmeyer> @channel: I want to bring this to everyone's attention so that everyone knows what's going on. There's a lot more people in this channel than we have contributors, for reasons that I don't know. Either way, I want to show you all this: https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/technical-board/2019-March/002428.html
<Eickmeyer> And that is about as public as I'm going with it at this time.
<Akberid_taf> Hi Eickmeyer, thank you first for showing us the mail
<Akberid_taf> I just wanted to say that while watching the different packages, this one https://launchpad.net/ubuntustudio-menu indicates "A custom menu for menu based desktop environments, such as XFCE, KDE and KXDE." => KXDE instead of LXDE, am I right ?
<Akberid_taf> On this package also, I wonder if it is intented to support Mate DE ? If yes, I wonder if it would be difficult to rely on some projects like Librazik (french audio distribution based on Debian, available in English) with the librazik-mate-menu package for example which does a really good job.
<Akberid_taf> There's a lot more people in this channel than we have contributors, for reasons that I don't know. >>>I can maybe give you one possible answer : mine. I'm interested in following Ubuntu Studio's developement. Ubuntu Studio was my first Gnu/Linux distribution 4 years ago, it wasn't really stable on my computer at this time, I look forward to be able to use it as a well integrated toolkit on my Ubuntu Mate
<Akberid_taf> I also hope to be able to help, but by now, I don't have the time and skills to be able to help in packaging for instance
<OvenWerk1> ubuntustudio-menu is an xdg complient menu enhancement. Any de that follows the xdg standard should have no problem using it. I will note that a number of stock menu spec files are broken.
<OvenWerk1> This includes gnome2 probably gnome 3 as well, lxde etc. It is a very small fix, but has been rejected by most maintainers. I will note that KDE is one of the few that gets it right.
<Akberid_taf> Hi OvenWerk1, I try to install the package on my Ubuntu Mate but it doesn't work...
<Akberid_taf> Mate change a lot of thing including names this gnome2
<Akberid_taf> changed*
<OvenWerk1>  The xdg standard states that the system config should not keep the user config from changing things, but they pull in user configs first then set up styling after :P Just moving one statement fromthe top of file to the  bottom normally fixes this
<OvenWerk1> If mate does follow the standard, it is hard to make something that will work with it.
<OvenWerk1> *doesn't
<Akberid_taf> I don't know what they do or not ^^' I'm not really skill on this subject
<OvenWerk1> The general move has been away from menus anyway... towards a pile of icons like a phone.
<Akberid_taf> There's a lot more people in this channel than we have contributors, for reasons that I don't know. >>> Eickmeyer, I'm also interested in software testing, I looked around the documentation avaible but it seems to have a lot of outdated things, it is really difficult to get a global picture on what is done and not...also, testing software and testing a distribution is kind of different job I guess
<OvenWerk1> Anyway after midnight here, so I am off to bed.
<Akberid_taf> OvenWerk1: I'm a bit oldfashioned I guess :p
<Akberid_taf> Good night so !
<OvenWerk1> I like a good menu.
<Akberid_taf> It's morning here
<OvenWerk1> I guess 0030 is morning too ..
<Akberid_taf> you're right :o
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerk1, Akberid_taf: -menu works in the standard menu in MATE, but Brisk Menu doesn't comply with xdg standards, so it gets messed up pretty bad.
<studiobot> <Eickmeyer> @Rosco2 [<Rosco2> Carla, grub-theme & installer], @tsimonq2 This message is what I was referencing.
<Eickmeyer> cyphermox: You around?
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerk1: <mitya57> Eickmeyer: etc/xdg/menus/applications-merged/studio.menu has a very ugly mix of tabs and spaces in indentation. I can upload it as is now, but please fix stick to some one way of indentation for the next version.
<cyphermox> Eickmeyer: how can I help?
<cyphermox> I was on holiday today, but I can haz a look :)
<Eickmeyer> cyphermox: If you want to take a look at Carla, feel free. mitya57 would probably appreciate it, he was going to look at it tomorrow, but if I can get more than one sponsor I'd be super stoked.
<Eickmeyer> Alphabetically, it's the first in the list I sent you.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2019-03-07
<cyphermox> list where?
<studiobot> <Eickmeyer> Did you not get my email? Doesn't matter, but https://launchpad.net/carla
<Eickmeyer> cyphermox: ^
<cyphermox> sorry I haven't looked at email all day
<Eickmeyer> I don't blame you if you're on holiday.
<cyphermox> ;)
<cyphermox> just finished cooking dinner
 * Eickmeyer needs to cook dinner too
<Eickmeyer> But first I need to know when my wife will be home
<cyphermox> heh
<Eickmeyer> Either way, with Carla, Ross signed-off on it, but it needs sponsorship & upload.
<Eickmeyer> Eventual goals are to get it into Debian.
<cyphermox> ok
<Eickmeyer> cyphermox: Sorry I didn't catch that one. Need anything from me? And thanks for doing this. 
<Eickmeyer> cyphermox: Do you need me to make that change?
<cyphermox> nah, it's fine
<cyphermox> I mean, both of you need to eventually have upload rights
<cyphermox> it will go much better if you can do everything and your name ends up in the signature though
<cyphermox> ie. the -- <name> <email>  part
<cyphermox> I've uploaded
<cyphermox> I see grub-themes-ubuntustudio also is in NEW now
<Eickmeyer> cyphermox: Yes, and it's in the new queue alreday.
<cyphermox> yup
<cyphermox> I see you also have some uploads for ubuntustudio-specific packages
<Eickmeyer> That one was all me, just forked from an existing one.
<cyphermox> yup
<Eickmeyer> Yes. Once grub2-themes-ubuntustudio is though, then -look can be uploaded.
<cyphermox> well, it's very few things so far, but we'll get there :)
<Eickmeyer> And once -look is through, that should be it.
<cyphermox> what's -look?
<Eickmeyer> ubuntustudio-look
<cyphermox> ah
<Eickmeyer> It's the theming.
<cyphermox> oh, I see
<Eickmeyer> mitya57 did a ton of stuff earlier.
<cyphermox> I don't think you necessarily need to wait to upload the the review queue though
<cyphermox> what about ubuntustudio-installer?
<cyphermox> ah nevermind, I see it landed
<Eickmeyer> Yep.
<Eickmeyer> Basically, I used https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntustudio as a checklist of sorts, with the ones marked "critical" as the bugs on the packages needed.
<cyphermox> yeah, it's just that this makes it a little hard to track for sponsoring :)
<Eickmeyer> So, with Carla in the queue, do you want to change the bug to "fix committed" then?
<Eickmeyer> cyphermox: I get that, which is why I marked them "fix released" when they went through, eliminating them from that list.
<cyphermox> sure
<cyphermox> err
<cyphermox> the ubutnu studio task, right?
<cyphermox> you don't already have access to toggle that?
<Eickmeyer> I do. I'll do it.
<cyphermox> it's fine, I did
<cyphermox> just making sure you also have what you need for non-upload tasks
<cyphermox> wait, what's in grub2-themes-ubuntustudio?
<Eickmeyer> A grub theme, just like grub2-themes-ubuntu-mate but themed for Ubuntu Studio.
<Eickmeyer> mitya57 uploaded it unchanged.
<Eickmeyer> Waiting on it to clear before ubuntustudio-look can get uploaded.
<cyphermox> well, that's why I was asking
<cyphermox> I'm not sure why one depends on the other
<Eickmeyer> There's a metapackage in -look I made for retheming which depends on that.
<cyphermox> I see
<cyphermox> you might want to remove it from plymouth-theme-ubuntustudio itself then
<cyphermox> seems very unrelated ;)
<cyphermox> but for ubuntustudio-branding-common being a metapackage I agree
<Eickmeyer> For the plymouth theme, it needs to be a dependency because the plymouth theme slaves the grub theme in the alternates when installed.
<cyphermox> ok, I see the file
<cyphermox> no clue how this works then
<Eickmeyer> I would've wrapped them all into -look if the grub theme weren't a fork of another project.
<cyphermox> yeah...
<cyphermox> I would have probably put the .grub file in the grub2-themes-* packages
<cyphermox> IIUC it's just a file that will get dropped in palce in /etc/grub.d or something
<Eickmeyer> I just went with how Ubuntu MATE did it.
<cyphermox> huh, it's not even that
<cyphermox> wow
<Eickmeyer> So, on a related note, how long does it usually a new package like that to clear the queue?
<cyphermox> it's anyone's guess, really
<cyphermox> I mean, it depends on having an archive admin that will review the package manually, so if it's a big package it takes longer
<cyphermox> and it depends on how busy they are in general
<cyphermox> it often can go slightly faster if you ping people in #ubuntu-release ;)
<Eickmeyer> I'll go ahead and do that for the grub theme then. Carla isn't nearly as imperitive.
<Eickmeyer> imperative? idk spelling...
<cyphermox> wow; ok, the .grub file is a convoluted setup with 05_debian_theme to hook that part into the rest of the grub config. I had never looked at that part of grub before
<Eickmeyer> Yeah. Grub is... yeah...
<cyphermox> well, I still don't understand how that piecing works
<cyphermox> but grub is kind of supposed to be my job, so I should figure it out ;)
<Eickmeyer> Oh! Well, I can say that, if you take a look at the Ubuntu plymouth theme, that it has similar grub file that is slaved when installed in the alternatives. Basically, the idea is to theme grub to whatever plymouth is doing.
<Eickmeyer> update-alternatives symlinks it depending on the alternative selected for the plymouth theme.
<Eickmeyer> That gets called at some point by grub during the grub-mkconfig process.
 * Eickmeyer did a little bit of grub theming in a former life
<cyphermox> sure, but nothing in the grub code is looking at those files, at least that I can find
<Eickmeyer> Oh, weird.
<cyphermox> I think we're looking at old stuff from grub1
<Eickmeyer> Huh. Stuff that somehow survived?
 * Eickmeyer wonders if it's documented somewhere
<cyphermox> same grep fails everywhere
<cyphermox> so it's not grub1, it might have been stuff that was once patched in, but eventually rotted away
<cyphermox> I'll sleep on it, and ask cjwatson in the morning
<cyphermox> it's worth checking that out as it might help fixing some flicker issues...
<cyphermox> or we dropped it because it caused flicker ;)
<Eickmeyer> Interesting.
<Eickmeyer> Well, thanks for all your help, and have a good sleep! I owe you a steak dinner if you ever come to the Seattle area.
<Eickmeyer> Oh, and would you mind sponsoring my PPU application?
<cyphermox> I'll have a look in the morning if you don't mind
<cyphermox> I'll open it up here so it's the first thing I see when I log in
<Eickmeyer> Sounds great. :)
<cyphermox> is it on purpose, rights to the specific packages and not the ubuntustudio packageset?
<Eickmeyer> It's for the ubuntustudio packageset and Carla, even though I put the entire packageset outlined in my app.
<cyphermox> we're talking about different things I think
<Eickmeyer> Must be.
<cyphermox> you're looking for the ubuntustudio-* packages in your application
<Eickmeyer> Yes, plus Carla (and the grub theme, even though it doesn't follow that wildcard).
<cyphermox> but there's a formal packageset for all of ubuntustudio (everything that lands on the images)
<Eickmeyer> Oh!
<cyphermox> which I think is what slangasek / the TechnicalBoard are really concerned with
<Eickmeyer> Yeah, I wasn't going for that much, but if that's what I should be applying for, then I'll go ahead and amend my app. It hasn't been officially submitted yet.
<cyphermox> Eickmeyer: you're in PST right?
<cyphermox> oh, but you'll likely be busy in the mornings
<cyphermox> hold on a minute
<Eickmeyer> Yes, I'm in PST, but aside from getting my son out the door to school on weekdays, I'm not currently employed.
<Eickmeyer> On purpose.
<cyphermox> ok, well, my idea was that if we could have a very quick hangout with just the right people we could make sure we're all on the same page re: upload rights
<cyphermox> I /think/ what Steve was saying is that you guys should have access to the seed-based packageset we call ubuntustudio; that's a different thing than the packages being named "ubuntustudio-*" and carla and a few others
<Eickmeyer> Right. As far as I know, we do have access to update the seed (at least Ross does).
<cyphermox> yes, you do
<cyphermox> well, you really should if you don't already have that access :)
<Eickmeyer> But, you're saying everything the seed calls upon.
<cyphermox> yes
<Eickmeyer> Okay, that makes sense. The term packageset was thrown around more than individual packages, so I'm pretty sure you're right.
<cyphermox> yeah
<cyphermox> it's really to mean a pre-defined list that contains what you have in the seed
<cyphermox> (so you can fix things for ubuntustudio generally by uploading directly, not being limited to just what's called 'ubuntustudio-*')
<Eickmeyer> Yes, that makes sense. Really, everything else is outside of our scope (more upstream than anything), but I see the need to be able to override an upstream package.
<cyphermox> I'm not sure what you mean by that
<cyphermox> I was referring to say, fixing a bug in xfce4-flargle because it doesn't flargle quite right when using in ubuntustudio
<cyphermox> (which is fair, as long as you take care that it then doesn't flargle wrong for other users, say, on xubuntu)
<cyphermox> and now, I really must be off to bed
#ubuntustudio-devel 2019-03-08
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerk1: Due to an upgrade in the debhelper in 19.04 to 12 from 9, our autobuilds are going to be stuck for a while. 
<Eickmeyer> We'll probably just have to change the debhelper (>=12) down to (>=9) to continue to allow the autobuilds and backports to build, and then change them again as release time for 19.10 gets closer to whatever version of debhelper will be then.
 * Eickmeyer heads off to relax, this has been a tough week
<tsimonq2> ...not from 9.
<tsimonq2> https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/debhelper
<tsimonq2> We haven't seen 9 since Xenial.
<Eickmeyer> Then 11? That's what I'm seeing.
<tsimonq2> Yeah.
<Eickmeyer> Cool
<OvenWerk1> Eickmeyer: I think in general the backports should not have to have the date be part of the version number as the packages in backports should be packages that are a part of the next cycle and as such have version numbers ahaed of whatever is already installed.
<OvenWerk1> The auto builds are alpha/beta -ish kinds of things and so the extra versioning is good.
<OvenWerk1> BTW Eickmeyer Thankyou for pushing everything through.
<OvenWerk1> I has been a busy week for me, This is the first I have been back in front of this computer for a few days
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerk1: No problem, glad it got done. Looks like Ross has a really good shot at getting upload rights this time around, but we find out Monday.
 * Eickmeyer expects his application to be rejected, but is okay with that.
<OvenWerk1> 6 months to try again?
<Eickmeyer> And by "his application" I mean me.
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerk1: Yep.
<Eickmeyer> If, for whatever reason, Ross's application gets rejected, we probably lose official flavor status. I doubt that will happen, considering the amount of endorsements he's received.
<Eickmeyer> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/RossGammon/PPUApplication
 * Eickmeyer is exhausted after this week
<OvenWerk1> I can imagine
 * OvenWerk1 can't understand the politics of packaging.
<Eickmeyer> Lintian. Apparently it's pedantic and evil. Right, tsimonq2?
<studiobot> <tsimonq2> :P
<studiobot> <Eickmeyer> ð
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerk1: It wasn't just the packaging. It was finding MOTUs willing to do the uploading, not only that but the emotional investment and energy put forth and anxiety attacks.
<OvenWerk1> Like I said politiks
<OvenWerk1> (with a capital "P"?)
<Eickmeyer> Yeah, I hate politics, but I'm willing to do whatever it takes to keep a project running, especially one with so much heavy investment.
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerk1: If you're wondering about the fail mail on the Live CD build, it's due to a bug they found in livecd-rootfs revealed by our package uploads. No problem on our side, it's just not handling the plymouth/grub themes gracefully.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2019-03-09
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: So glad to see your nick fixed. :)
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: I'm going to throw this in an email, but it looks like light-locker is being depricated due to lack of maintenance.
<Eickmeyer> In the meantime, bluesabre did some amazing work and forked mate-screensaver to xfce4-screensaver.
<Eickmeyer> We need to swap them in the seed.
<Eickmeyer> Also remove xscreensaver in favor of xfce4-screensaver.
<Eickmeyer> https://docs.xfce.org/apps/screensaver/start
<OvenWerks> Bummer, I liked lite locker
<Eickmeyer> As did I. From my testing, xfce4-screensaver does effectively the same thing.
<Eickmeyer> Just better and more reliably.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2019-03-10
<OvenWerks> I must be odd I have never had the screen blanking fail. But then I don't use the locking part.
<Eickmeyer> Yeah, it was apparently a problem since several bugs were found and never even acknowleged. Unmaintained code like that, especially when desktop security is involved, is kinda dodgy.
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: I have my machine set to never go to sleep, blank screen only
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: Mine is a laptop.
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: With regaurd to the plymouth theme. I don't think it can be in /usr/share/* it has to be in /lib/plymouth? or has this changed?
<OvenWerks> usr/share is not a part of initrd so unless plymouth is forced to start after root is mounted it won't work... except it does right now.
<OvenWerks> So when did they move that? /usr is not guaranteed to be mounted at boot even.
<OvenWerks> (from days of old and small drives)
 * OvenWerks probably doesn't know what he is talking about...
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: Steve Langasek told us not to worry about it, and that he's confident that our grub/plymouth themes simply revealed a bug in livecd-rootfs that needs to be addressed. He has code up for review now: https://code.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-core-dev/livecd-rootfs/+git/livecd-rootfs/+merge/364206
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: It's /usr/share. If you look at the code for the default Ubuntu theme, that's where it goes. 
<Eickmeyer> Steve said it's completley correct, just the reason it's causing problems is because livecd-rootfs isn't handling it gracefully.
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: it has changed since 16.04 then. No problem.
<OvenWerks> Probably a systemd change
<Eickmeyer> Something. I honestly don't know, but that's likely since plymouth, systemd, etc. came from Red Hat/Fedora.
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: I have 18.04, adding backports... install -menu fails because "trying to overwrite '/usr/share/ubuntustudio/applications/hdspmixer.desktop'" - which is also in package ubuntustudio-default-settings 0.65
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: Eek! Lemme see what needs to happen there.
<OvenWerks> I am not sure if that is because I have _settings from auto or not.
<OvenWerks> Anyway we should make sure That file is not in both packages.
<Eickmeyer> Doing that right now, I'll be pinging someone to reupload that.
<Eickmeyer> Might mean a version bump.
<OvenWerks> Well, like I say it may be a mixup in auto which I have now turned off
<Eickmeyer> It's not in -default-settings, at least not in my local git.
<OvenWerks> Right so maybe I have ano old -settings
<Eickmeyer> Probably.
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: Yeah, not good to mix autobuild and backports.
<OvenWerks> backports is a new thing...
<Eickmeyer> Yeah. Autobuild is for our testing, backports is for users.
<Eickmeyer> That said, I need to delete everything in backport and rebuild without the date numbers, since we're at a stable build right now in prep for disco. I might have to branch for that purpose since the debhelper version is causing nothing to build.
<OvenWerks> That can wait till april
<Eickmeyer> Yeah. Not urgent.
<OvenWerks> Probably the best thing to do is remove everything in there, make a new recipe then build
<Eickmeyer> Yeah, that's the plan.
<Eickmeyer> Should I remove everything now, you think?
<OvenWerks> Sure.
<OvenWerks> I down graded -settings then -menu worked.
<OvenWerks> (and settings doesn't even show up)
<Eickmeyer> Weird.
<Eickmeyer> Are you pulling settings from autobuild?
<OvenWerks> I am pretty sure the -settings I had came from auto which is now truned off
<Eickmeyer> Ah, that explains it then.
<OvenWerks> And the version that was causing problems no longer shows up as available either
<OvenWerks> backports should have the same version as a release would have.
<Eickmeyer> Okay, backports is empty. I'll be working on branching and redoing the recipes.
<OvenWerks> That of course means backports should only get built when there is a new version number released. So that the version number is greater than what is in the repos for that cycle.
<OvenWerks> Yup, it's all clean
<Eickmeyer> Yes. Backports is set to only build on command, and I'll be modifying the build recipes to keep them from showing a date in the version. Right now is the perfect time to do it since everything is uploaded to Disco. I'll be making a branch for Cosmic and Bionic to build from since it requires a lower debhelper verison.
<OvenWerks> Oh, ok.
<Eickmeyer> Back later
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: so B & C will require their own recipe... D will have a new recipe when we actually need it
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: Correct. As it stands, B & C just need a minor modification, D can build from that as well, even though it wouldn't pass the Lintian tests if it were in the actual repo.
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: Backports are all rebuilding with actual release versions.
<Eickmeyer> I'll just have to merge the master branch into the backport branch for each package every 6 months.
<Eickmeyer> I'll probably delete Cosmic from the PPA after July.
<Eickmeyer> Once Disco releases we should change the compat & debhelper back to >=11 so that the autobuilds will start working again, but I want to proceed with caution.
 * Eickmeyer is considering getting calf & lmms pulled from Debian and backported as well
<OvenWerks> Cosmic is 18.04? Lots of people will still use that for LTS length. This is very true for those who do Studio over <other flavour>
<Eickmeyer> Cosmic is 18.10
<Eickmeyer> Bionic is 18.04
<OvenWerks> Ah, so you would keep B and loose C, OK
<Eickmeyer> Yes.
 * OvenWerks needs more sleep...
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: HAHAHAHA! I was just about to ask if you needed more sleep!
<OvenWerks> My YF has not been sleeping well at night and has been waking me up to tell me so... frequently
<OvenWerks> So it is less of a joke than normal...
 * OvenWerks checks to see what the new PPA does to his system ;)
<Eickmeyer> Yeah, my YF and I do that but only when one of us is tossing & turning.
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: You might have to do a PPA Purge first, but it won't matter if you have autobuilds.
<OvenWerks> The following packages will be upgraded:
<OvenWerks>   numix-blue-gtk-theme plymouth-theme-ubuntustudio ubuntustudio-look
<OvenWerks>   ubuntustudio-wallpapers
<Eickmeyer> Ah, that's because vorlon (Steve) and I had to force a new version number.
<OvenWerks> Thats not bad then
<Eickmeyer> Nah. I would revert the debhelper version in master for all of those packages, but that's not a good idea if we're about to hit beta freeze.
<OvenWerks> It seems to be updating with no error anyway.
<Eickmeyer> Which, I believe, is the 25th. Probably just need minimal changes from here until then.
 * OvenWerks was taking a quick look through Cadence... 
<OvenWerks> It does not look easy to modify/fix
<Eickmeyer> Cadence isn't being actively developed right now.
<Eickmeyer> He's put all of his effort into Carla.
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: we have for 19.04 what we should have had for 18.04
<OvenWerks> Carla is well worth while
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: This is true.
<OvenWerks> I think he is thinking about removing ladish from kxstudio/cadence
<OvenWerks> For bit rot
<Eickmeyer> Yeah. I think he's taking the code and integrating it directly into Claudia.
<Eickmeyer> But he has that on hold for now. He's been telling people in bug reports that the entire Cadence suite isn't in his sights at this time, but perhaps mid-year he'll look at it again.
<OvenWerks> Linux audio is changing, unless someone uses non-stuff jack is not really needed. Plugins have taken over
<Eickmeyer> Right. Session management has gone into the DAWs themselves for the most part.
<OvenWerks> Jack is only needed for those who need more than one audio device or more than one program... 
<OvenWerks> usb devices are a thing, but multi-applications less so any more
<Eickmeyer> Right. When I'm doing live production and round-tripping audio through my DAW, I typically also need something to playback spotify or amazon music, which is when I have to use the Pulse bridge, which, unfortunately, introduces latency due to buffer requirements.
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: if I feel energetic, I may play more with the pulse-jack bridge.
<OvenWerks> I think jack should look like a pulse device and use the same kind of code.
<Eickmeyer> Jack completely taking-over and using Pulse as a device is backwards indeed.
<Eickmeyer> Of course, then pipewire is supposed to solve everything. /meme
<OvenWerks> I think with the right buffering in the bridge, jackd could run at any latency without dragging pulse along for the ride
<OvenWerks> pipewire is a long way from there. More likely is pipewire replacing pulse and still needing a bridge for jack.
<Eickmeyer> Right now, the lowest latency I can get with a USB device and Pulse is about 128/3, and even then get about an xrun/hour. WIthout pulse? 64/3.
<OvenWerks> -controls should allow for driver = forewire
<OvenWerks> *firewire
<Eickmeyer> Yeah. I think that's where people have run into issues.
<Eickmeyer> Unfortunately, I don't have a firewire device to test with, nor do I have a computer with firewire.
<OvenWerks> Odd, I can get below that here... but pci device
<OvenWerks> Generally the same thing applies for both firewire and USB... use a dedicated card for it. Hard to do with a laptop
<Eickmeyer> Exactly. All I have are laptops. I have an old Mac Mini that I use as a server, but I'm not about to reformat that to use as a guinea pig.
 * Eickmeyer might be able to repurpose an old MacBook Pro at the end of this month
<Eickmeyer> But then I still don't have a Firewire audio device.
<OvenWerks> It depends where the computer audio world goes in the next while, AVB or aes67 could take over the whole works from USB...
<OvenWerks> It would be cheaper to add a better enet chip than just about anything else.
<Eickmeyer> I can see AES67 being huge. I mean, we can already drive audio over a network with NetJack, but to standardize on AES67 would be awesome. I can even see that taking out Dante.
<OvenWerks> the car manufatures seem to be going AVB... that could make HW cheap.
<OvenWerks> For Linux both aes67 and avb need the same thing... an intel i210.
<OvenWerks> (or the equiv Broadcom that apple uses)
 * OvenWerks wanders off for a nap (feeling old)
<Eickmeyer> Do it. :)
#ubuntustudio-devel 2020-03-03
<Eickmeyer[m]> OvenWerks: Found another issue: we can't be making symbolic links in the .postinst. We can, however, make relative symbolic links in the source itself, which was super easy so I just did it. Reason being is we can't have absolute paths.
<OvenWerks> Ok, Eickmeyer[m] I originally tried making relative links and gave up. I guess I did not fully spec the relative link. I assumed filename would be in the current directory. I guess everything has to be ./path/name then
<OvenWerks> (or ${PWD}/ ?
<Eickmeyer[m]> Not exactly. Since the targets were in systemd/user already, it was a matter of going into that directory, making (for example) the default.target.wants directory then, inside default.target.wants, "ln -s ../studio.service studio.service" and repeat for the other one.
<Eickmeyer[m]> OvenWerks ^
<Eickmeyer[m]> When one uses ../{file} for the link target, it remembers that as a relative link.
<OvenWerks> So long as it works, I am happy
<Eickmeyer[m]> It does. It effectively does what you were trying to do, but much more "packagable" for lack of a better term.
<OvenWerks> Thank you.
<Eickmeyer[m]> No problem. Glad to help. :)
<OvenWerks> At some point the dbus_send commands should be replaced with python dbus commands.
<OvenWerks> I learned how to recieve them, but not send them.
<Eickmeyer> It looks like our dry spell of not being able to boot inside a VM is over.
<Eickmeyer> That said, it looks like Virtualbox hates Xfce's display compositor.
<studiobot> <teward001> VBox hates everything :P
<studiobot> <teward001> @Eickmeyer do you need me to test something in VMware?
<studiobot> <teward001> (image, etc.)
<studiobot> <Eickmeyer> @teward001 Yeah, feel free to test the latest Studio image in VMWare, if you want. Historically we haven't supported VMs, but this is looking a bit more promising.
<studiobot> <teward001> *goes to download*
<studiobot> <teward001> @Eickmeyer [<Eickmeyer> That said, it looks like Virtualbox hates Xfce's display compositor.], I assume you installed the VBox Guest Extensions?
<studiobot> <teward001> (for that 'test')
<studiobot> <Eickmeyer> Yes.
<studiobot> <teward001> cool.  10min ETA on the download finishing here
<studiobot> <teward001> +- 5min
<studiobot> <Eickmeyer> ^ In other words, the basic amount of time it takes to download.
<studiobot> <teward001> yup.  using zsync tho :P
<studiobot> <Eickmeyer> Which means 90% checking against what you already have.
<studiobot> <teward001> which is nothing :P
<studiobot> <teward001> so full download
<studiobot> <Eickmeyer> Yep. Standard direct download at that point.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2020-03-04
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: I'm having a little trouble. Does autojack interact with /etc/default/ubuntustudio in any way?
<OvenWerks> No but ubuntustudio_system does.
<OvenWerks> It has to be done with pkexec because /etc has system owned files
<OvenWerks> I think it is read by /lib/systemd/ubuntustudio as well
<Eickmeyer> Aha! That's what's missing.
<OvenWerks> so /usr/sbin/ubuntustudio-system sets it (reads it first for defaults) and the other reads it at boot
<Eickmeyer> Yes, I see that now. :)
<Eickmeyer> Although, for quite some time now, /lib is a symlink to /usr/lib.
<Eickmeyer> So, we might just need to combine those two directories.
<OvenWerks> the /lib/systemd/ubuntustudio is not used directly but via a link: /lib/systemd//lib/systemd/system/ondemand.service.d/ubuntustudio.conf
<OvenWerks> we could combine them, at the time I first put it in they were very much separate
<Eickmeyer> Yeah, they've been combined since before 18.04 iirc.
<OvenWerks> It used to be common to mount usr aftr /
<OvenWerks> no I have 18.04 and it is not combined
<Eickmeyer> Interesting.
<Eickmeyer> Well, lets leave them separate until 18.04 is EOL then.
<OvenWerks> Yeah I think we need to
<Eickmeyer> In 20.04 /lib points to /usr/lib.
<OvenWerks> I think even before
<OvenWerks> 19.10 for sure but maybe as early as 18.10
<Eickmeyer> Very possible. I know that was somthing that was discussed as early as 14.04 since Fedora jumped on that combination pretty early.
<OvenWerks> it is a hard link
<OvenWerks>  :P
<Eickmeyer> Ah. Then that makes sense.
<OvenWerks> But I guess that with drive sizes /var and /home are the ones that get extra mounted
<OvenWerks> the /, /usr, /opt set of trees are not very big by todays standards
<OvenWerks> the /home tree can be very big of course and it is nice to be able to just mount it or back it up separate
<Eickmeyer> Yeah, /home definitely gets that. Most people (and defaults) don't bother with /var.
<OvenWerks> for a mail system it is nice
<OvenWerks> th0ough I guess /var/mail could be a link
<OvenWerks> or /var/spool
<Eickmeyer> Indeed.
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: So, I made a discovery: ondemand.service is an Ubuntu-only thing. To circumvent that, I made a /lib/systemd/system/studio-system.service file that executes /lib/systemd/ubuntustudio.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2020-03-05
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: um, ok, so long as it runs after the ondemand one on ubuntu.
<Eickmeyer[m]> OvenWerks: It won't even run unless it's enabled, which it's not by default.
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: ok, Im confused. I am not sure "what" won't run unless its enabled"
<Eickmeyer[m]> OvenWerks: So, a systemd service file does nothing unless called upon. By sitting in /lib/systemd/system it does nothing unless someone calls "systemctl start *.service". Additionally, it does nothing at boot unless it's enabled by "systemctl enable *.service".
<OvenWerks> not true
<OvenWerks> at least that has not been my experience
<Eickmeyer[m]> Any systemd document I have ever read says what I wrote.
<OvenWerks> enable *.service just drops a link in the right place
<Eickmeyer[m]> The file simply "exists" until called upon.
<OvenWerks> if the link is pre installed it runs
<Eickmeyer[m]> Exactly, enabling it to be called-upon at boot.
<Eickmeyer[m]> In this case, I'm not doing that.
<Eickmeyer[m]> (not creating the link)
<OvenWerks> all of the scripts in /lib/systemd/ do nothing unless there is service that calls them.
<OvenWerks> From a package?
<Eickmeyer[m]> Correct, and that service must be in /lib/systemd/system and either A) linked in /etc/systemd/system or B) manually run.
<OvenWerks> a package should create all needed links
<OvenWerks> Are we still talking about -controls/ondemand?
<Eickmeyer[m]> That's correct, but if it's a systemd link it needs to be created the systemd way.
<OvenWerks> no that is not true.
<Eickmeyer[m]> Yes, but controls/ondemand is diferent.
<OvenWerks> the package can create the link just fine.
<Eickmeyer[m]> Ok, I'll rephrase that. A systemd link should be created the systemd way.
<OvenWerks> not for a package install
<Eickmeyer[m]> Which isn't hard (postinst: systemd enable foo.system)
<Eickmeyer[m]> *systemctl enable foo.system
<OvenWerks> I still disagree... but whatever.
<OvenWerks> the enable tends to put the links in /etc not in /lib/systemd/system/
<Eickmeyer[m]> As it should.
<Eickmeyer[m]> Enable simply makes it run at boot.
<OvenWerks>  the /etc/ should only be used for local config not package config
<Eickmeyer[m]> There are exceptions to that, in this case, systemd services.
<OvenWerks> that is so the system admin can modify the operation of the system without making package upgrade fail
<Eickmeyer[m]> Systemd throws that old rule out the window.
<OvenWerks> not very smart
<OvenWerks> not old rule but correct rule
<Eickmeyer[m]> But it is the way that it is. systemd is smarter at handling that situation than you think.
<OvenWerks> systemd also runs correctly puts in links in the correct places too.
<Eickmeyer[m]> Yes, but not unless it's told.
<OvenWerks> putting a link in the right place "tells" systemd what to do with it
<Eickmeyer[m]> That's correct. Such as when systemd is told to enable a .system file, it makes a link in /etc/systemd/system/{target.wants}.
<Eickmeyer[m]> It bases that link on the systemd file saying "WantedBy = *.target".
<OvenWerks> or even if the link is in /lib/systemd/system or a sub directory
<OvenWerks> I have tested this rather a lot
<OvenWerks> it does work even without use the "enable" command even with no link in /etc
<Eickmeyer[m]> Yes, but it doesn't automatically run in anything in /lib/systemd/system unless it's enabled. ondemand.service is an exception because it's enabled on Ubuntu systems already (there's a symlink in /etc/systemd/system/multi-user.target/) and it looks for anything in its directory called .conf.
<OvenWerks> There are rather a lot of commands/files in /lib/systemd/system and /lib/systemd/user that just run with no link what so ever in /etc
<Eickmeyer[m]> Yes, but the systemd file I made does not. It cannot unless it's "enabled".
<OvenWerks> wrong totallly wrong I have seen things run with out any enabling done
<OvenWerks> Then you have not put the link in the right place
<Eickmeyer[m]> Then those things have a link somewhere in /etc/systemd.
<OvenWerks> no they don't
<Eickmeyer[m]> No, I don't want the systemd file I made to run on Ubuntu. I only want it to run on Fedora.
<Eickmeyer[m]> Hence, I don't have Ubuntu enable it.
<Eickmeyer[m]> If it makes you feel better, I can have .postinst delete it during install.
<OvenWerks> unless systemd is totally different on fedora it likely works much the same way
<OvenWerks> so how many files are in /etc/systemd/system/*/ ?
<Eickmeyer[m]> Fine, I'll have postinst delete it, but it needs to be there for non-Ubuntu systems otherwise you can't even launch -controls.
<OvenWerks> wierd
<OvenWerks> it sounds like a really really bad design]
<OvenWerks> just like hard linking /lib/systemd to /usr/lib/systemd
<Eickmeyer[m]> Non-Ubuntu systems don't have ondemand.service. That's an ubuntu-only thing made to replace init.d/ondemand. So, nothing creates the cpufreq files that -controls reads when it starts. In order to fix that, I needed something to run a systemd service on boot.
<OvenWerks> That much I can see
<Eickmeyer[m]> And that is why I did what I did. I wouldn't want it to run at boot on Ubuntu since that conflicts with the operation of ondemand.service (not so much conflicts as runs the /systemd/ubuntustudio service twice). So, I made it "WantedBy=multi-user.target" so that it only gets called if it is seen in /etc/systemd/system/multi-user.target" as a symlink.
<OvenWerks> so create another *.service file in /lib/systemd/system/ called whatever.service. It should have in it:
<OvenWerks> [Unit]
<Eickmeyer[m]> Yes, that's exactly what this has.
<OvenWerks> Description=Set the CPU Frequency Scaling governor
<OvenWerks> ConditionVirtualization=no
<OvenWerks> ConditionPathExists=/sys/devices/system/cpu/online
<OvenWerks> [Service]
<OvenWerks> Type=idle
<OvenWerks> ExecStart=/lib/systemd/studio
<Eickmeyer[m]> It's much simpler than that: https://git.launchpad.net/ubuntustudio-controls/tree/lib/systemd/system/studio-system.service
<OvenWerks> That one does have an install segment
<Eickmeyer[m]> Yes, but that is for "systemctl enable" reference to make the symlink. The packaging file for rpms calls that as a postinst.
<Eickmeyer[m]> Otherwise it sits there and does nothing. I verified it already.
<OvenWerks> you can remove the Install section and just put a link in /lib/systemd/system/multi-user.target.wants/ too
<OvenWerks> but yes it could just be enabled
<Eickmeyer[m]> Exactly. Fedora (and openSUSE) like to do things the "systemd way" as opposed to Debian and Ubuntu that make a lot of compromises for people who objected to using systemd in the first place.
<OvenWerks> but looking at the system folder it looks like even ubuntu has put everyth8ing in /etc
<Eickmeyer[m]> Yep. That's done during the postinst scripts by way of "systemctl enable".
<OvenWerks> so, I guess we couold change all of the systemd stuff to do that. Its fine if not very "Linuxy" (or Unixy"
<OvenWerks> next question is does it work?
<Eickmeyer[m]> Yes, it works.
<OvenWerks> it may need ConditionPathExists=/sys/devices/system/cpu/online
<Eickmeyer[m]> It doesn't.
<Eickmeyer[m]> It just works the way it is. I have tested it.
<OvenWerks> maybe it is fixed then
<Eickmeyer[m]> Must be, but I do know I had to have kernel-tools installed since we change the cpu governor.
<Eickmeyer[m]> brb, kid to school.
<OvenWerks> when ubuntu first switched to systemd, and they were still using ondemand in /etc/init.d/ there were problems with it running too soon
<OvenWerks> in fact, so far as I know cpufreq still had that problem last I looked
<OvenWerks> (we don't use it anymore)
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer[m]: it is probably ok to have both ways of running that installed.
<OvenWerks> it should not matter if it gets run twice (in ubuntu/debian)
<OvenWerks> or we could set up ubuntu so that ondemand is merely turned off and use the second method to actually do the work.
<OvenWerks> It sounds like in debian/buntu land, system is done one way and user another way.
<OvenWerks>  it is also quite possible that debian/buntu basically ignores systemd in user land except for packages like pulse that come from and upstream that does systemd by default
<OvenWerks> (except for gnome which kind of messes things up)
<OvenWerks> I think that perhaps the debian packaging setup requires a multilevel config system for better stability when updating software... 
<Eickmeyer[m]> And that's very possible. I think, for consistency sake, I'll have postinst remove the systemd service I created, but the packaging for Fedora keep it.
<Eickmeyer[m]> OvenWerks: For reference, here's the .spec file used to build the .rpm package: https://pagure.io/studio-controls/raw/master/f/studio-controls.spec
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer[m]: The main thing in ubuntu is that ondemand has a delay in it (60 sec)
<OvenWerks> so it has to be "repaced"
<Eickmeyer[m]> In that, I remove the ondemand-service stuff.
<OvenWerks> *replaced
<Eickmeyer[m]> So, there's no reason why in Ubuntu I couldn't remove studio-system.service.
<Eickmeyer[m]> Just different ways of doing things. Â¯\_(ã)_/Â¯
<Eickmeyer[m]> And, no, systemd isn't very unix-like. That was, and is, the biggest objection people have with it.
<OvenWerks> It would be nice to have one set of files that just works... but then it would not work with a system that still uses /etc/init.d for everything :P
<OvenWerks> There are somethings I like about systemd... 
<Eickmeyer[m]> I think, at this point, we have a run-time dependency on systemd for -controls, tbh.
<OvenWerks> yup I don't think we nee to worry about making it work for slackware :)
<Eickmeyer[m]> Hahaha
<Eickmeyer[m]> Or Gentoo.
<Eickmeyer[m]> So, do we start working on unbranding it next cycle?
<OvenWerks> yes
<Eickmeyer[m]> Cool.
<Eickmeyer[m]> Either way, it runs and works on Fedora, haven't tried openSUSE yet.
<Eickmeyer[m]> Though, for Fedora, I did have to package python-jack and zita-ajbridge.
<OvenWerks> :)
<OvenWerks> they are both worth having anyway
<Eickmeyer[m]> Exactly. I was surprised they weren't there already. python-jack is undergoing review as we speak, and zita-ajbridge has been approved for release.
<Eickmeyer[m]> I'm waiting for those both to hit RawHide. Once those hit, submitting studio-controls will be the next step.
<Eickmeyer[m]> BTW, Fedora's default kernel (the only one they have, really) is very nicely optimized for lowlatency.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2020-03-06
<frnck> hi people
#ubuntustudio-devel 2020-03-08
<ztron> Looks like Secure Boot is broken in Ubuntu Studio 19.10.  Was working ideally in 19.04.  Would be good to function again for version 20 release.
<Eickmeyer[m]> He left before I could tell him it's on his end.
