#ubuntu-doc 2004-12-06
<Hoodster> sivang: Just thinking about what I will contribute next.
<Hoodster> sivang: I added to the FAQ recently and, with the help of hornbeck, I was able to upload it, but I got a message that the file I was uploading was no longer there. It could be that the message was specific to the message I included with the upload (not sure how to describe it.
<Hoodster> sivang: Who is my best bet to tell me if it uploaded okay. ChrisH? plovs? hornbeck? Whose in charge (hehe)?
<enrico> WE've just had a nice earthquake here
<__daniel> WOW?
<__daniel> where was that, enrico?
<enrico> Hello.  Elmo asks for a timescale when the first failed login reportedly happened
<enrico> __daniel: Italy, Emilia Romagna (middle-north)
<__daniel> wow
<enrico> People, let's tell Elmo: when is the first time you had a failed login in the wiki?
<__daniel> enrico: i had problems (and this crappy error message about 2 hours ago)
<enrico> __daniel: do you remember the error message?
<__daniel> "connection ... unexpectedly"
<__daniel> so no wiki-error
<__daniel> more a http error
<enrico> 00:12 <elmo> yeah, ok thanks.  ssl broke - I'm trying to figure out why
<enrico> The firemen are on their ways on the wiki, then
<__daniel> COOOOOOL
<enrico> Here instead everything seems quite again after the earthquake (except a fagiano (a big big bird) that got upset by his tree-bed shaking and complained loudly for a while)
<__daniel> enrico: i never experienced an earthquake before
<enrico> __daniel: try logging in again
<__daniel> *REJOICE!*
<__daniel> am i not supposed to use 
<__daniel> = bla
<__daniel> and
<__daniel> == blubb ==
<__daniel> in the wiki texts ?
<enrico> With moin formatting, you use "= title ="
<__daniel> ah... ok
<__daniel> hmmm
<__daniel> doesnt really work
<__daniel> <--- as dumb as it gets wikily-speaking :-)
<enrico> Did you select "Moin formatting" at the bottom?
<__daniel> "structured text"
<__daniel> hmmmmmmm :-/
<enrico> __daniel: well, just select "Moin formatting" (the last option) instead
<__daniel> there is no such option
<enrico> __daniel: uh?  Let me see..
<__daniel> https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/academicinvolvement
<enrico> __daniel: "MoinMoin markup"
<enrico> __daniel: it's the last option
<enrico> gh!!
<enrico> It's not there on your!
<enrico> It's not there on yours!
<__daniel> *STRANGE*
<__daniel> i'll make it html then ;-)
<sm> that's no moon...
<enrico> __daniel: is that a wiki page?  It's got a name in all lowercase
<sm> it's a.. Document
<__daniel> d'oh
<__daniel> hop i can i delete
<__daniel> hope
<sm> click the contents tab, scroll till you find it, check the box and click delete button at the bottom
<sm> it's right at the end.. batch number 6
<__daniel> sorry for messing around :-/
<sm> not your fault
<sm> I don't think those other content types should be available in this folder
<__daniel> seems i cant delete it
<__daniel> only rename and change state
<sm> so you can see it at https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/folder_contents?b_start:int=500 - but no delete button ?
<enrico> sivang, ChrisH: around?
<__daniel> i'll "undo" it
<sm> good idea
<__daniel> hmm... blows up the "undo"er
<sm> just so I understand - you can see the listing, but not the delete button ?
<__daniel> exactly
<sivang> enrico : yes
<sm> and what happened when you click plone's undo link ?
<__daniel> Error Type                                           MultipleUndoErrors
<__daniel> Error Value                                       Undo error 0000000000025507: Undo error 0000000000025507: no previous record                                                        
<__daniel> Request made at                                       2004/11/24 23:45:44.117 GMT             
<enrico> sivang: I started the docteam-tools work as I said in the list, and I'd like to svn-commit it somewhere
<__daniel>                                   Error Type                                           OverflowError                                                                              Error Value                                       long int too large to convert to int                                                        Request made at                                       2004/11/24 23:46:48.100 GMT             
<sivang> enrico : what is it?
<enrico> sivang: can I just go on and commit is as a new directory in Hornbeck's repository?
<sivang> enrico : give that a try if not, just mail hornbeck , is this the deb pacakge with the utilitites?
<enrico> sivang: see my mail in reply to Nick Loeve in the list, subject "Guidelines for writing?"
<sm> __daniel:  ugh
<sm> does it do this every time you click it ?
<enrico> sivang: and also, could you please tell me the commit URI to access subversion?
<sivang> enrico : could you tell me how do I poll it out of the svn config?
<__daniel> sm: i tried different combinations and started to undo one by one
<sm> ah I see, you got this when undoing something
<enrico> sivang: svn info from inside the repository
<sm> that's not too unusual.. zope/plone can't always undo things
<__daniel> sm: yes :-)
<sivang> URL: http://69.155.172.150/faq
<sivang> Repository UUID: 1e033ed4-87e8-0310-8703-d68c7bbd86c9
<sivang> Revision: 59
<sivang> Node Kind: directory
<sivang> Schedule: normal
<sivang> Last Changed Author: plovs
<sivang> Last Changed Rev: 59
<sivang> Last Changed Date: 2004-11-23 18:07:01 +0200 (Tue, 23 Nov 2004)
<sm> I have to go shortly, I think the quick solution is for me to delete this for you and restrict the content types so people don't accidentally add documents in this folder
<__daniel> hmmm is there any wiki operator, who could delete it? :-)
<__daniel> sm: ahhhh that sounds good
<sm> just grab a copy of your text first, ok ? 
<sivang> enrico : can't find your mail, could you resend to me so I can take a look?
<__daniel> sm: i did
<__daniel> sm: stupid me :-)
<sm> deleted
<__daniel> sm: great
<sm> thanks for the information
<__daniel> sm: am i supposed to change the (quite generic) wiki page name?
<enrico> sivang: forwarded
<sivang> enrico : thnks
<__daniel> is this "wiki_page.2004-11-24.3894835681" in order?
<enrico> Magnitude 5.2 richter (www.themeter.net/sism.htm)
<__daniel> enrico: WOW
<enrico> And cool enough, information spread quickly over instant messaging and other internet chats rather than in the usual info channels :)
<__daniel> ha... :-)
<sm> __daniel: if you use the plone add item link at the top, yes - give it a real name
<sm> but I recommend you use the wiki create form down at the bottom instead
<sm> or start by creating a WikiLink in the usual wiki way
<sm> by editing the page you want to link from
<__daniel> i did it :-)
<sm> good good
<__daniel> now i'll write to -devel and -users for additional ideas/comments
<__daniel> i guess that's enough for today...
<__daniel> i'm off to bed
<__daniel> have a good night, guys  :-)
<enrico> http://earthquake.usgs.gov/recenteqsww/Quakes/usrfcl.htm
<sivang> enrico : was it felt?
<enrico> sivang: yes, it's the one I mentioned in the channel before
<sivang> wo, everything is ok?
<enrico> Here yes
<enrico> Near the epicenter, maybe less
<sivang> night!
<enrico> Good night everyone!
<George^D^Work> hi all
<hornbeck> hello
<hornbeck> man this version of xchat is ugly
<hornbeck> h
<hornbeck> hey plocs
<hornbeck> plovs
<hornbeck> :-)
<George^D^Work> hornbeck: arnt all versions of xchat ugly
<hornbeck> the one I was using the other day was not
<hornbeck> I just reinstalled hoary and it is very ugly
<George^D^Work> the warty one is ugly
<Hoodster> Hi all! I have a quick question. I attempted to upload to the repository and it appeared to work. What is the best way to confirm it? I am still a bit green with svn.
<hornbeck> just svn update and see if the revision goes up
<hornbeck> that is how I do it :-)
<hornbeck> see you guys later
<George^D^Work> cya all
<hornbeck> hello?
<hornbeck> you guys sleep to much :-)
<hornbeck> night
<lulu> morning all :o)
<plovs_> hi guys!
<plovs_> networking is *hard*
<plovs_> let's see how long i'll be online this time
<lulu> plovs_:hey Alex!
<plovs_> lulu: morning, how are you today
<lulu> Great :o) how are you?
<plovs_> rather busy
<lulu> plovs_: Is there anything you waiting for from me - I have a long to do list and may have forgotten...
<lulu> besides wiki and svn move (James Troup)
<plovs_> lulu: i (just) forwarded you a mail from james, wiki move is done, so that's nice
<plovs_> will james be in barcelona?
<lulu> plovs_: awesome...and yes - he's a great key Canonical guy!
<plovs_> nice, it will be easier to get stuff done if you know and thay know whom they are talking with
<plovs_> for the rest, as far as i'm concerned you're home-free, no jobs waiting, afaik
<plovs_> lulu: you're using a mac, right?
<lulu> plovs_:home free - I wish :o)....and yes - using  a Mac laptop G4
<lulu> why?
<Presskopp> hi
<lulu> Presskopp: welcome!
<George^Deka> hi all
<George^Deka> i broke my ubuntu
<Presskopp> hi George^Deka 
<Presskopp> what happened?
<George^Deka>  i installed firefox from hoary, now when the system boots it does not load gdm instead i get a curses screen telling me x is already running on 0 do you want to try it again on 0 or on another session
<Presskopp> hmmm.
<Presskopp> i assume that notonly firefox but other packages from hoary have been installed?
<George^Deka> yes some libs
<George^Deka> cant remeber which ones
<George^Deka> but thinking about it maybe libprobe
<George^Deka> and dial-up hell is no good, cant dist-upgrade
<Presskopp> what happens when you press <alt>+f7 when that curses-screen occurs?
<Presskopp> maybe gdm starts...
<George^Deka> didndt try alt-f7
<Presskopp> okay. 
<Presskopp> you could try to reinstall gdm.
<George^Deka> good idea, i eneded up getting in going f1, then logging and startx
<Presskopp> did it work?
<Presskopp> i have to go to lunch with my colleagues. will be back in 30 minutes. sorry.
<George^Deka> yeah that worked, im in now
<George^Deka> k cya
<George^Deka> prob off by then
<George^Deka> hi enrico
<George^Deka> i love your hostmask :)
<enrico> hi!
<enrico> George^Deka: :)  this came kind of automatic
<Presskopp> re
<sivang> HI ALL!
<sivang> oops
<sivang> the caps
<Presskopp> hi sivang 
<ChrisH> sivang: Hi, AOL user. :)
<sivang> ChrisH : hi :) 
<sivang> Hey Presskopp , fisrt time on the -doc channel?
<sivang> hey lulu
<Presskopp> yes
<lulu> sivang: hiya :o)
<ChrisH> [print "Hello, ", user for user in /who] 
<Presskopp> need to improve my idling-skills... ;o)
<sivang> Hey Hoodster
<sivang> ChrisH : heh
<sivang> So, the old wiki is moved?
<sivang> Hi enrico, what's up?
<sivang> sm : Hi Simon, would you care for bits of Plone/Meduca questions? :)
<ChrisH> sivang: I hadn't believed it... but python really makes many things easier than in perl. Drawback: the source is still readable. ;)
<Hoodster> Hi Sivang: Hi ChrisH:
<sivang> ChrisH : well, this is the one feature I just cannot seaize to astonish by - the lanugage drives you to write readable code
<ChrisH> Hoodster: hey... :)
<sivang> Hoodster : hey again hoodster, how's work coming? :)
<Hoodster> Chris: Good.
<Hoodster> ChrisH: Sorry for taking so long, it can be hectic here (hehe)
<Hoodster> ChrisH: I uploaded a file earlier this week and I am not sure if it worked. I got a strange message. How do I tell if it uploaded okay?
<ChrisH> Hoodster: Who do you tell? I'm home this week and still my to do list shrinks slowly. :)
<Hoodster> ChrisH: I know what you mean. Not only am I working full time, but I am preparing to make a big move (relocating).
<ChrisH> Hoodster: full time for Ubuntu? :)
<Hoodster> ChrisH: hehe, no not full time for Ubuntu. I don't have that aspiration. I like being a volunteer. However, if they paid me what I get now, I just might consider it (hehe)
<ChrisH> Hoodster: Hehe. I would probably still stay at my current employer. It's nice to work for Ubuntu. But I rather have coworkers around me than doing a "virtual job" all the time.
<Hoodster> ChrisH: What is nice about Ubuntu? Just curious (hehe). I know nothing about the company (Canonical?)
<ChrisH> Hoodster: The company seems to stay in the background as much as possible (Would be distracting if a commercial sponsor dictates what volunteers had to do.)
<Hoodster> ChrisH: Thank you for the introduction to the Ubuntu team. It was a great read.
<enrico> sivang: Hi!  I was having lunch
<ChrisH> Hoodster: you are welcome :)
<ChrisH> Hoodster: I like the code-of-conduct in ubuntu. I was flamed once too often in Debian. This hasn't happened here.
<ChrisH> Hoodster: I like that it's focusing on the end-user, has regular releases and the community is a lot smaller (still).
<Hoodster> ChrisH: I agree. The group is very cordial to others. However, I have never been really involved in a volunteer effort like Ubuntu. 
<sivang> ChrisH : you should have seen it in the early days before preview release :) it mas MUCH smaller, and so quiter...ahh memories...:)
<sivang> ubuntu-devel didn
<Hoodster> ChrisH: Yes, it is important to get involved in the beginning, when the pond is small.
<ChrisH> Hoodster: It's quite fun. Contribute as much or little as you like. Nobody forces anyone to do anything. Just if you take a certain task you are asked to do it in time. :)
<sivang> even exists
<ChrisH> Hoodster: Like... you could bring me another cappuccino. ;)
* enrico brings a cappuccino to ChrisH
<ChrisH> enrico: Ah thanks. That was close...
<sivang> an interesting bit I found on uusers: http://www.linuxdevcenter.com/pub/a/linux/2004/06/28/indemnification.html
* ChrisH has never had a DD bring him a beverage before
<enrico> What better of an italian DD to bring you a virtual cappuccino?
<enrico> Well, Christian Surchi would be even better
<enrico> He's the maintainer of "cappuccino"
<enrico> I suggest you all apt-get install cappuccino
<enrico> It's *wonderful* !
<ChrisH> enrico: I had it running at work... but my boss wasn't stupid enough to believe me I really work. :)
<ChrisH> enrico: I like the BSOD screensaver a lot more. Boss: "oh, your Windows crashed again? well, better get working on it."
<enrico> ChrisH: lol! :)
<sivang> ChrisH : what's the pkg name for the screen saver?
<enrico> sivang: xscreensaver?
<ChrisH> sivang: It's in the xscreensaver package that comes with ubuntu. Just select the BSOD saver
<enrico> I'm in love with that screen saver as well
<enrico> and with apt-get moo
<ChrisH> moo?
<enrico> ChrisH: just run it...
<enrico> (as user, if you don't trust me)
<ChrisH> ARGH!
<ChrisH> /rofl/
<enrico> ChrisH: read at the end of apt-get --help
<ChrisH> rofl^2
<enrico> ChrisH: now try aptitude --help
<ChrisH> Awww.. :)
<enrico> ChrisH: and of course aptitude moo
<sivang>       This APT has Super Cow Powers.
<sivang> There are no Easter Eggs in this program.
<sivang>  ?
<sivang> :)))
<ChrisH> And I wonder why Sarge is not yet released...
<sivang>                   This aptitude does not have Super Cow Powers.
<sivang> hahahaha
<Hoodster> Hey guys, I seem to have forgotten the command that will update my local files. I thought is was svn update, but I don't think that is correct. Can anyone spare a hint?
<sivang> ROTF
<sivang> L
<ChrisH> Hoodster: svn up
<ChrisH> Hoodster: that's right
<sivang> how do I run cappuccino?
<ChrisH> sivang: command line
<Hoodster> ChrisH: I get the message "Won't delete locally modified file 'install-issue.xml' what does that mean?
<ChrisH> Hoodster: the file has been deleted in the repository but you changed it... subversion saves you from having your changes being lost
* enrico GOT IT
<enrico> 1) dpkg-reconfigure fontconfig
<ChrisH> enrico: btw... what's your plan regarding Debian? Are you still contributing there or are you migrating completely?
<enrico> 2) Enable bitmapped fonts
<enrico> 3) Install xfonts-terminus
<enrico> 4) Set the monospace font to terminus
* enrico can now have decent non-antialiased fonts in gnome-terminal!!
<enrico> ChrisH: Oh, no, I keep contributing to Debian
<enrico> ChrisH: I actually like Debian a lot and I'd like it to be able to move past its problems, and to help that
<Hoodster> ChrisH: It has been deleted? But I updated that file (hehe). Now I have to figure out which file to transfer the change. Oh well (hehe)
<ChrisH> enrico: Good to hear that. I will probably need you again as a moral encourager in the future. :)
<sivang> enrico : xfonts-terminus is for all locales?
<enrico> ChrisH: :)
<enrico> sivang: probably not, unfortunately
<enrico> sivang: wait a sec, I check my spam folder
<sivang> enrico : :)
<ChrisH> Hoodster: Just take a look at the new structure. You probably just need to do a little cut'n'paste. I changed the whole structure so I couldn't be 100% backwards compatible. Sorry about the additional work.
<ChrisH> enrico: hmmm... Terminus looks a little ugly here :(
<enrico> it has cyrillic, chinese, japanese, but I can't see hebrew so far
<enrico> ChrisH: strange
<Hoodster> ChrisH: It really isn't a problem. I was trying to be humorous in a sarcastic kind of way, which probably doesn't work very well in a chat (hehe). When you say the new structure, do you mean the 'usersguide.xml' file?
* enrico doesn't understand much of the font mysteries of X
<ChrisH> enrico: monospace is still a lot more readable here... the spacing looks smoother
<ChrisH> Hoodster: yes, sir
<enrico> ChrisH: My problem is that monospace gets antialiased, and this makes everything blurry.  If I could find how to avoid antialiasing on monospace, I'd be super-happy
<sivang> enric : error: "Font `-*-fixed-medium-r-normal-*-*-140-*-*-*-*-iso8859-15' is not defined"
<ChrisH> enrico: problem: terminus was antialiased, too!
<Hoodster> ChrisH: I don't see the part that has installing non-free software. What happened to that?
<sivang> enrico : do you know where I can find that font?
<sivang> enrico : (this is for emacs)
<sivang> enrico : btw, Martin Michlmayar is doing a very interesting research for his PhD , habe you had chacne to read some of the papers?
<ChrisH> Hoodster: in the userguide?
<enrico> sivang: apt-get install xfonts-terminus
<enrico> sivang: no, I haven't read tbm's papers yet
<Hoodster> ChrisH: I think I am out-of-touch on what has happened over the past week (things move quickly,hehe). Do you mean that there are two parts to the FAQ? A Userguide and the original FAQ?
<sivang> enrico : installed the terminus pacakge..
* enrico is about to go out
<enrico> I should stay away no more than 3 hours
<sivang> ok, c'ya soon enrico!
<Presskopp> hey, as the topic is that fonts-stuff...
<Presskopp> on debian- and ubuntu-systems some programs have that ugly big fonts.
<Presskopp> can i fix that issue with dpkg-reconfigure fontconfig also?
<enrico> Presskopp: it's probably a question which has more luck in #ubuntu; you may also want to explain better what do you intend with "ugly big fonts", maybe posting a link to a screenshot
<Hoodster> ChrisH: The reason I ask about the status of th FAQ is that I can't open it with yelp. I almost feel lost (lol).
<Presskopp> enrico: mmmkay. thx. :o)
<sivang> Hoodster : warty/hoary?
<Hoodster> sivang: I use warty.
<sivang> Hoodster : ok, have you checked out the recent version of the userguide.xml ?
<sivang> (including all it's subtrees)
<Hoodster> sivang: I think so. But I always wonder if I have the most recent version. I did do a svn update, but I don't know if I am using the most up-to-date repository. (hehe)
<sivang> Hoodster : what is the problem with your yelp? does it inform of any error?
<Hoodster> sivang: Thank you for replying. I think things will get confusing quickly. So, I must step back and explain a little. I think part of the problem is me (hehe). First, I can open the user-guide.xml file okay with yelp. No problem there, so I think yelp works. I only have a problem opening the faq.xml file (no error message, just freezes).
<sivang> Hoodster : no prob :) I think the old faq.xml should not be used anymore, as we have transsited to the new layout, however you can send me that file (I do not know from where to check it out) the file I'll try and see if my yelp eats it
<ChrisH> Hoodster: oh, it works with yelp here
<sivang> ChrisH : should it be used anymore , the old faq.xml ?
<ChrisH> sivang: nope, should be deleted in the repository anyway
<sivang> ChrisH : ok, wanted to make sure my answers were correct.
<Hoodster> ChrisH:  sivang: I do appreciate all the replies. I think what I will do is a complete checkout and see if I have better results.
<sivang> Hoodster : ok, no prob. We try :) 
<ChrisH> Hoodster: good idea
<Hoodster> ChrisH: sivang: I seem to have failed to write down the url to the repository. I think it started with a 19xxxx. Can you provide it?
<sivang> Hoodster : Path: .
<sivang> URL: http://69.155.172.150/faq
<sivang> Repository UUID: 1e033ed4-87e8-0310-8703-d68c7bbd86c9
<sivang> Revision: 59
<sivang> Node Kind: directory
<sivang> Schedule: normal
<sivang> Last Changed Author: plovs
<sivang> Last Changed Rev: 59
<sivang> Last Changed Date: 2004-11-23 18:07:01 +0200 (Tue, 23 Nov 2004)
<Hoodster> sivang: Thanks!
<sivang> Hoodster : no prob :)
<Hoodster> sivang: ChrisH: More question. This repository is very, very different from my local directory. There is no faq xml file. Should this be so?
<Hoodster> cd parts
<sivang> Hoodster :hmm, I must consult my svn expert here, ChrisH ?
<Presskopp> what about a "svn info" or a "svn status"?
<Presskopp> maybe one might see something interesting within that information?
<ChrisH> Hoodster: that's right
<ChrisH> Hoodster: I changed the *whole* structure of the document. So nothing is where it was before.
<Hoodster> Presskopp: That is a good tip. That is a good way to what the repository URL is.
<Hoodster> ChrisH: So, there is no FAQ file anymore or it is in a different repository. Which is correct? Or is there another? (hehe)
<ChrisH> Hoodster: The FAQ has been merged into a user guide.
<Hoodster> ChrisH: I like the new structure. I am just having trouble orienting myself to the info that was there (hehe)
<ChrisH> Hoodster: check out the README
<Hoodster> ChrisH: I will do that now.
<hornbeck> Hello all
<Presskopp> hi hornbeck 
<Hoodster> Hi hornbeck
<ChrisH> hI h0rnb3ck
<Hoodster> ChrisH: I read the README file and I didn't see info that answers my questions. (hehe) But I should read that file often, good thing to do.
<Hoodster> ChrisH: I can't find the non-free info that was in the older faq.xml in the usersguide.xml. If it is there, let me know and I will keep searching. If it is not, then perhaps this info is no longer desirable. I am just trying to understand the new changes and whether I should forget about the work I had done previously or try to include it (hehe)
<hornbeck> rebooting
* ChrisH is off for a while (visiting parents-in-law)
<Presskopp> bye
#ubuntu-doc 2004-12-07
<Hoodster> ChrisH: Hi
<ChrisH> Hoodster: mooorning...
* sid77 ciao
* sid77 re
* sid77 goddbye, all!
<enrico> hornbeck: around?
<hornbeck> yes
<hornbeck> I am always around :-)
<enrico> oh!
<enrico> I've seen 22hours idle and I thought...
* enrico was wrong
* enrico appreciates hornbeck's ubiquity
<enrico> hornbeck: do you have some time (1 hour maximum) for setting up svn scripts?
<hornbeck> enrico: not today 
<enrico> hornbeck: ok.  Monday?
<hornbeck> I work in about 5 minutes and don't get off for about 10 hours
<hornbeck> Monday should be fine,or over the weekend
<hornbeck> what kind of scripts?
<enrico> hornbeck: one or more of the things we've been talking about in the list: in the menu we have: CIA reports, automatic make and publishing online, an APT upload queue
<enrico> Of course not all of these things may be useful/doable
<hornbeck> enrico: do you know how to do those things?
<enrico> hornbeck: yes
<hornbeck> if you can shoot me a email with howto's or such I can get started in my available time
<enrico> hornbeck: I usually do them in my Alioth project
<enrico> hornbeck: Ok.  I can send it in the list, with attached some config files, so that it remains as a record for everyone
<enrico> Also, if you do it while I'm online, I can assist you
<enrico> hornbeck: I'm going out: I'll send the mail tonight
<sivang> Hi all
#ubuntu-doc 2004-12-08
<sivang> anybody awake?
<sivang> plovs : ping
<hornbeck> anyone around?
<sivang> I am :)
<sivang> what's up hornbeck?
<plovs> good evening
<hornbeck> hello
<plovs> hi, finally back online, network problems :(
<hornbeck> I understand that
<hornbeck> I had no laptop for a fews days this week
<hornbeck> Hoary crashed on me
<plovs> how?
<hornbeck> I mess with it to much :-)
<hornbeck> changed a few to many things
<plovs> ah well, then it's understandable :)
<hornbeck> yes
<plovs> i'm using a mac atm, not too bad
<hornbeck> what kind of mac?
<plovs> g4 laptop
<hornbeck> nice
<plovs> from work
<hornbeck> I am going to try to get my boss to buy me a mac
<plovs> i prefer linux, but the integration of aqua is great
<hornbeck> yeah it is
<plovs> the hardware is suberbe, i really like that part
<plovs> and eye-candy plenty of course
<hornbeck> yes
<plovs> apple-script is nice as well
<plovs> is your server on-line?
<plovs> hornbeck: yours?
<hornbeck> plovs: yes
<hornbeck> it should be
<plovs> PROPFIND of '/faq/parts/software': could not connect to server (http://69.155.172.150)
<hornbeck> try again
<hornbeck> I  am pulling the faq from a offiste server right now
<hornbeck> checked out revision 61
<hornbeck> is it working?
<plovs> i can't ping (http://69.155.172.150)
<plovs> is the ip correct?
<hornbeck> it does not ping
<hornbeck> the address is my gateway
<hornbeck> the server is behind it
<plovs> ah, ok
<hornbeck> try to pull the svn files
<hornbeck> it should be fine
<hornbeck> is it working?
<plovs> i can't reach anything, is this the right? svn checkout http://69.155.172.150/faq
<hornbeck> svn co http://69.155.172.150/faq
<hornbeck> I can pull it from a outside site
<hornbeck> I can even ftp into the server from a outside server
<plovs> ?? now it worked, great!
<hornbeck> it was the co ?
<plovs> i think so
<plovs> anyway, it works, thanks
<hornbeck> no problem :-)
<hornbeck> glad it worked
<hornbeck> I am going shopping now
<plovs> ok, see ya!
<sivang> anyone what is a good WLAN nic which is supported in ubuntu?
#ubuntu-doc 2004-12-09
<hornbeck> anyone here?
<sivang> I;m here,
<sivang> what's up?
<sivang> gotta reboot, brb
<guile> hi all
<plovs> good morning all
<ChrisH> plovs: hey...
<sivang> hi all
<hornbeck> hello
<sivang> what's up hornbeck?
<hornbeck> not much, just woke up
<hornbeck> catching up on mail
<hornbeck> you?
<hornbeck> hey enrico
<enrico> Hello!
<enrico> hornbeck: did you get the mail with the short howto?
<hornbeck> yeah
<hornbeck> I just have not had time to do it yet
<hornbeck> I had alot of family in town for thanksgiving
<enrico> hornbeck: I imagined... actually I think I wrote in my mail that we could take care of that from monday for that reason...
<hornbeck> yeah, that would work
<enrico> did you survive the family?
<hornbeck> yeah it was fun
<hornbeck> I am just tired now
<hornbeck> :-)
* enrico massages hornbeck's shoulders
<hornbeck> I have also been working on a  program for my job
<enrico> sivang: around?
<hornbeck> he was here a second ago
<sivang> enrico : here
<enrico> sivang: I've read your mail
<enrico> I'm here for further explanations
#ubuntu-doc 2004-12-10
* sid77 hi!
<enrico> hi!
<ChrisH> hi!
* enrico booked a new flight
<ChrisH> enrico: Why that? Working for Gentoo now?
<enrico> ChrisH: see my message in ubuntu-doc about the previous airline going bankrupt and canceling all flights
<enrico> Man, this was such a PITA...
<ChrisH> *lol*
<ChrisH> Let's see if the hotel or Mark or the train company also go bankrupt. Oh, heck.
<enrico> Plus a general strike here tomorrow, so I had to wake up at 4.45 to reschedule my girlfriend's flights for today
* enrico would feel more stable living in Bananas rather that in Italy at the moment
<sid77_> c'mon enrico, at least tomorrow you shouldn't have to be at university to take a test ;)
<enrico> www.sco.com :))
<enrico> Have a look asap
<sid77_> ahahh
<sid77_> already seen
<sid77_> (and saved a copy too)
<enrico> sivang: got ya!
<sivang> enrico : hi!
<sivang> Finally I am online..
<enrico> lulu: around?
<enrico> lulu: I'd like to ask about the relationships between the translation teams and the documentation team
<enrico> lulu: Many people write in ubuntu-doc offering help for internationalizations, and I wonder if the docteam should also handle internationalization or if there are already i18n teams
<enrico> lulu: That is, it's unclear to me how i18n work is organized in ubuntu
<enrico> lulu: Could you help me clearing it out?
<lulu> enrico: Daf is working with translators on translating Ubuntu.
<lulu> enrico: the doc team is encouraging translators who wish to translate documentation to set up their local language on the wiki and begin...
<lulu> enrico: I am corresponding with a company atm to get linguaplone done for the site.
<enrico> lulu: does that mean that if people offer help with i18n we shold refer to daf for application i18n and help setting up a section in the wiki and working with the docteam for local documentation?
* enrico doesn't know much about linguaplone, but can imagine
<lulu> that is the natural division atm.
<lulu> we need to link the two teams better. Let's include that as a point in the BOF in Spain and have people contribute their ideas beforehand on the wiki....to give us a bigger picture of what both teams think we should be doing...
<enrico> lulu: sounds meaningful to me
<lulu> enrico: can you get a page set up and faciliate this discussion on the two lists?
* enrico considers pasting this conversation in the list
<enrico> lulu: two lists... you mean ubuntu-doc and ubuntu-devel or there is some ubuntu-i18n list?
<lulu> enrico: to both....and get the wiki page up to collate ideas.
<enrico> lulu: sure: I can take care of this
<lulu> enrico:there is a translators mailing list.
<enrico> lulu: ok, I'll look that up
<lulu> ubuntu-translators@lists.ubuntu.com
<enrico> lulu: thanks
* enrico activates
* enrico emits loud lorry engine noise
<lulu> enrico: Rosetta should be ready by Mataro so this will make the integration much easier/better
<enrico> lulu: I'll be curious to finally see what Rosetta will be about
<lulu> enrico: You know from the previous conference that it is a translation tool. But all will be revealed shortly.
<enrico> lulu: yes, I know that but I still don't know about its scope
<enrico> lulu: I just know it'll be amazing :)
<lulu> in the interim - I think a brainstorm on how to get translators and the doc team working together will be a good beginning. Let us know when the page is up and seeded with a few of your ideas.
<lulu> enrico: thanks for doing that :o)
<enrico> It'll be UbuntuLanguages
<enrico> lulu: it's my pleasure and my duty
<lulu> :o)
<sivang> enrico : hi again
<sivang> hi lulu
<sivang> what will be amazing?
<sivang> ;)
<sivang> enrico : I went to the lib which is working 2 more hours here..
<lulu> sivang: hiya! 
<sivang> lulu : Hi lulu! 
<sivang> lulu : were you talking about rosetta?
<sivang> :)
<lulu> sivang: yes.
<sivang> lulu : oh, there is one thing I wanted to ask regarding the conf,
<lulu> and how translators and doc team need to work together - we need to get that brainstorm going asap. Enrico's onto it.
<lulu> sivang: ask away...
<sivang> lulu : I'm listed with the wlecome to python BOF on the 15th :) Now, as I don't mind giving such , I will not be there on the 15th as we all know :)
<sivang> lulu : I will hopefully stay online for the time being and help enrico 
<sivang> on it also, I have been reciving requests from various translators for co operation already
<lulu> sivang: draft - may be a few probs to iron out. Jeff will be putting the last BOFs up - and we'll move things.
<lulu> sivang: good - please add these ideas/queries to the wiki page so we can work on a strategy to work together effectively.
<sivang> ok, no prob. I would be honnoroed to give a talk before Scott :) with him continuing on "Python Everywhere" , I would also not want to miss that by him, I'll talk to Jeff
<sivang> enrico : rehi! :)
<sivang> enrico : ok, let's set on some wiki and docteam planning now :) win is enough for that I guess :)
<sivang> enrico : first, I want to create a formal page on the main site for the doc team, with updated goals and current works, as we set and agreed not long ago , outline the streamlines list of goals with the 1)Ubuntun Book
<sivang> 2) Shipped docs
<sivang> 3) Doc Infrastructure
<sivang> etc..
<sivang> what else did we have?
<sivang> lulu : when will be set to go on moving the new faq from the svn to act as a main faq? how comfortable are you with this?
<enrico> sivang: I'd use DocumentationTeamCurrentWork for that
<sivang> enrico : ok, so we just go and fill what we are onto , and send a request to ML for others? I think john has sent a request for update also..
<sivang> enrico : how can we also go about trimming down the huge amount of wiki pagees? as we discussed before , do you agree also the wiki should be a small repository of docs, with only few main pages of brainstorming and updates?
<enrico> sivang: I'm getting lost
<sivang> enrico : oh sorry, let me restart..
<sivang> enrico : (reading my stuff I see I'm lost also :)
<lulu> sivang" I have an FAQ upload answer - let me find it...
<lulu> and elmo is talking to hornbeck on the Ubuntu svn server.
* enrico created UbuntuLanguages
<sivang> lulu : ok, so it will get uploaded there? how is it going to be incorporated in ploney? :)
<enrico> I'll now try to get to daf to discuss how to announce that in the i18n community
<sivang> enrico : what is the announcment about?
<enrico> About updating UbuntuLanguages if someone starts a new language project
<enrico> About current works, I started trying to keep track of what happens using 'planner' (apt-cache show planner)
<enrico> I don't like planner's philosophy centering on commercial projects, but it's useful to keep track of who's doing what
<lulu> enrico: is the wiki not good enough to track who is doing what?
<enrico> However, a summary of the big Docteam ongoing efforts can be at the beginning of DocumentationTeamCurrentWork
<enrico> lulu: to be honest, it was a long time I wanted to try this planner/MrProject software :)
<enrico> And yes, the wiki is probably good enough
<lulu> enrico: ok - but the more layers of complexity that is added, the less inclined people are to get involved. Keep it straighforward and easy.
<lulu> is at all possible.
<enrico> I don't plan to spread the use of planner anywhere
<enrico> I swear! :)
<lulu> is -> if
<lulu> ok :o)
<enrico> I have quite a long wishlist bug to be reported in my mind
<enrico> It just isn't made to track volunteer-driven projects, imo
<enrico> sivang: still around?
<sivang> yes
<sivang> I'm will be for a while, I want to assist in getting some stuff done
<enrico> sivang: would you like to get started in packaging the FAQ?
<sivang> enrico : yes !
<sivang> enrico : [what about the other stuff, wiki streamlineing content, plannig]  ofcourse!
* enrico almost finished the annoucement and is now peer-reviewing with Daf
<enrico> Sent the announcement
<lulu> night all :o)
<enrico> lulu: good night!
<enrico> (too late)
* enrico is about to go out
<enrico> I hope sivan gets back soon
* enrico goes out
<enrico> See you later, or tomorro!
<ggi> hello sivang
<sivang> hi ggi
<sivang> how's ireland in this cold period of the year?
<sivang> :)
<ggi> Hey! It's Scotland, and it's very cold. I should probably put the heating on.
<sivang> ah sorry
<sivang> scotland,
<sivang> I recalled it was something from that region, please excuse my bad memory and poor geography knowlege.
<sivang> (and my bad spelling also:)
<ggi> Have we decided on a DocFest weekend yet?
<plovs> goodnight!
<sivang> ggi : I don't think 
<sivang> so
#ubuntu-doc 2004-12-11
<sivang> enrico : I'm here
<enrico> Ok.  Please paste the question here :)
<sivang> <sivang> what is the structure, and what files I need to put into an upstream source tree to make it debable
<sivang> or "how to learn debian packaging in 21 hours"
<sivang> :)
<enrico> you need 3 main files, all in the directory debian/ in the source tree
<enrico> One is debian/control: it contains package metadata such as package name, description, dependencies
<enrico> One is debian/changelog: it contains the version history and the latest version of the package
<enrico> One is debian/rules ( :) ) and it is a makefile that contains commands that build the package
<enrico> If you see people with a t-shirt saying "debian/rules" it's the name of this control file, as well as saying "Debian Rules!"
<enrico> So, you can take any package (take for example my guessnet package) and see what's in debian/*  You'll always find at least these files
<enrico> Then you can have various other accessory files
<enrico> debian/rules often makes use of debhelper, which is a suite of scripts that make creating packages easy, by automating most operations
<enrico> Other (optional) files that can be there are scripts like preinst and postinst, that are executed by dpkg at various stages of the package installation/deinstallation/upgrade...
<enrico> I suggest you take guessnet as an example and build from there
<enrico> It's fine to just copy a debian/* directory over and replace the package name :)
<enrico> guessnet's packaging however exploits the fact that upstream is very cool and uses automake/autoconf :)
<sivang> hehe
<sivang> I know why :)
<enrico> it's not that hard to only use makefile, though
<enrico> /usr/share/doc/cdbs/examples lists some examples and one of those only uses makefiles
<enrico> There are links to documentations for cdbs.  I'll tell you them now:
<enrico> See debian bug 220756 for some links to cdbs documentation
<enrico> laptop crashed
<enrico> again and again
<enrico> sivang: still there?
<sivang> enrico : yes, headed to bed , just grabbed something to drink
<enrico> Heading to bed too
<enrico> See you tomorrow, then, continuing the debian packaging crash course
<sivang> yes, it was great, crash courses are nice :)
<sivang> hi all
<lulu> sivang: hiya :o)
<sivang> hey there lulu ;-)
<sivang> hi plovs
<plovs> hi!
<plovs> how's the laptop
<sivang> hmm, bit better :) I will try make even some more fine tuning today
<sivang> thanks, and what about yours? is he all well? (talking about them like children:)
<plovs> the one for spain i haven't seen yet, osx is getting better, but it is not linux :-(
<plovs> \
<sivang> plovs : didn't you tell me yesterday you have one for spain?
<plovs> yes, i have one, just not at home atm
<sivang> ah
<plovs> how is your writing getting along?  i haven't done much, just made an outline, too much work atm
<sivang> plovs : slow but steady...:)
<sivang> plovs : you meant on your part of the book?
<plovs> yes, well on everything atm, i hope to do something wednesday and in the weekend
* sivang sivangAFK
<enrico> sivang: Hello,tell me something when you come back
<ChrisH> Hey, gals... ;)
<sivang> hi enrico
<enrico> Hi
<enrico> ChrisH: hei!
<sivang> hi !
<enrico> sivang: feel like resuming the packaging business?
<sivang> enrico : ah yes
<sivang> enrico : let me see if I can update the from svn again, I was unable last night
<ChrisH> Once week to go... :)
<ChrisH> s/Once/One/
<enrico> Yup!
<ChrisH> Does anyone know yet how far the hotel is from the Mataro train station?
<enrico> I don't know
<enrico> I'll need some instructions in that sense, actually
<enrico> But I can try to dig that information later
<ChrisH> lulu didn't know either
<sivang> ChrisH : me neither, but silbs has noted to me that once first people get there, it would be more clear :)
<sivang> we have the advantage of coming after the conf starts :)
<sivang> I tried to understand things from the map that was linked from the wiki - no go :)
<ChrisH> sivang: Cool, you are doing the "Welcome to Python" workshop? Great. Then I can finally ask the tricky questions.
<sivang> it's all spanish and cluttered
* enrico knows spanish
<enrico> Linked from which page of the wiki?
<sivang> ChrisH : hmm, that's interesting, where did you see it?
<ChrisH> sivang: http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/ConfAgenda
<ChrisH> sivang: Friday,  17:30 - 19:00
<ChrisH> 
<ChrisH> Welcome to Python
<ChrisH> 
<ChrisH> SivanGreen
<ChrisH> 
<ChrisH> Salon Mataro/Iluro 
<sivang> enrico : here : http://www.renfe.es/cercanias/barcelona/img/zonal_barcelona_grande.gif
<ChrisH> Looks like there are less interesting meetings than I thought during my stay. Well... it's a draft. ;)
<sivang> hmm, I might ask some of the more python expers to help me :) and still this is the draft for the agenda,  I didn't realie me suggesting a BOF makes me responsible for it :)
<enrico> sivang: that map tells you which cercanias line to get (which is line 1, dircetion Maanet)
<sivang> enrico : Macanet?
<enrico> BTW, line 1 is nice as it goes all along the coastline and you can stare at the mediterranean
<enrico> sivang: that's the end destination of the line, but you get out at Matar
<ChrisH> enrico: Cool, I'll have my Ixus ready. :)
<enrico> Now we need a map of matar, with a cross on the hotel
<ChrisH> enrico: Indeed.
<sivang> enrico : is it a bus ride?
<enrico> sivang: no, train ride
<sivang> enrico : I understood there is going to be a train
<ChrisH> enrico: I don't like to take a taxi to the hotel with the baby on my lap. The taxi drivers must have learned to drive during the Vietnam war.
<enrico> Cool thing is that line 1 also goes to the airport, so it's a single train ride, with no changes
<enrico> Oh, if you take a taxi, always ask for the receipt
<enrico> And if you feel like they asked too much, the receipt should have informations about the driver or taxi number on it
<sivang> enrico : ok, please explain again: I arrive at the barcelona airport and from there take a train straight to mataro?
<enrico> It happened that the taxi driver asked for some amount, then you asked for the receipt and they said "OH!  I made an error..."
<ChrisH> sivang: That part is easy. Take the blue line to mataro. Done.
<enrico> sivang: yes: cercanias line 1
<ChrisH> sivang: This information has already been there.
<ChrisH> sivang: But there is no information about the area around the hotel.
<sivang> enrico : hmmm, where do I find the train station on the airport?
<enrico> sivang: I bet it's well marked, but I'm sure you can ask to any airport information desk and they'll all speak english
<sivang> enrico : do you think the train is far from the airport?
<ChrisH> sivang: No.
<enrico> the train station should be in the airport
<ChrisH> sivang: http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/Conference/ => Flying In
<sivang> ok, it is more clear now
<sivang> thanks ChrisH for pointing it
<ChrisH> sivang: yw
<lulu> ChrisH: and the Mataro train station is an easy 10 min walk from the hotel apparently. But, they have taxis for about 4 euros or so, apparently.
<enrico> lulu: hi!
<ChrisH> lulu: Very good. I don't mind the costs. I just fear for my life and that of my son.
<enrico> lulu: is there a map of matar with the location of the hotel (or the hotel website)
<lulu> ChrisH: the hotel website is on the wiki - Hotel NH Ciutat de Matar, located near the city center. 
<enrico> lulu: ok.  Later on I can pull all the information and try to post some map
<lulu> ChrisH: a link anyway.
* enrico goes having lunch
<lulu> ChrisH: mmm - I googled for others - with more info on the hotel. - I'll replace the link with another.
<ChrisH> lulu: did you find anything useful on the hotel web site? :)
<lulu> ChrisH: ^.....I'll see what I can find.....
<sivang> ChrisH : you make it sound like spain is a dangerous place :) please say it's not..
<ChrisH> sivang: It's not. But my boss told me that the taxi drivers are mad in spain.
<ChrisH> sivang: They don't have baby seats or belts on the back seats.
<ChrisH> sivang: And they drive like hell.
<ChrisH> sivang: So if - as lulu said - it's just a 10 minute walk, I'm more than happy.
<sivang> ChrisH : You mean to walk it ? (sounds reasonanbe to me also)
<ChrisH> sivang: Yup. We have a mini-buggy for Marco, a suitcase on rollers and a backpack.
<sivang> sweat!
<ChrisH> sivang: I don't sweat! :)
<ChrisH> sivang: That reminds me... I need to get the mentoring docs ready.
<sivang> ChrisH : mentoring docs? nice..anything specific in mind?
<ChrisH> lulu: btw... what about it? The mentoring ideas.
<ChrisH> sivang: Mark had a few thoughts. And I also have. Just need to write a document and draw a sketch or two.
<sivang> ChrisH : did you get how a BOF is supposed to be managed?
<ChrisH> sivang: It's how we make the project easier for contributers.
<ChrisH> sivang: In real life? :)
<sivang> like yes
<ChrisH> sivang: Well... I assume we will just gather and talk about the topic. Nothing serious. No real speech. Perhaps an introduction so everybody knows what they will talk about.
<sivang> ChrisH : ok, this sounds nice, I am just trying to figure if I am able to do a "W2P BOF" ..:)
<ChrisH> sivang: Windows-to-Perl?
<sivang> hahah
<sivang> ChrisH : Welcome 2 Pytohn
<sivang> hmm,. the hotel website gives much info
<sivang> :)
<ChrisH> sivang: I've just started with Python. May be useful to have someone there who is using Python more than for just a day.
<sivang> ChrisH : yes, I will talk to keybuk about  it
<ChrisH> lulu: Besides the NM workshop that I don't see. You "promised" the Soyus will be introduced. As I'm not there in the second week... is there a chance this is done twice? I know I'm asking for much.
<ChrisH> sivang: The style is very different from Perl and although I got a few lines running I'm often laughed about in #python. ;)
<lulu> ChrisH: I can't promise there will be a second BOF but the Soyuz team will be working there for 2 weeks so you will be able to speak to them directly. Kiko, Daniel, Celso and Guilherme....but there will be talk about it.
<ChrisH> lulu: k
<sivang> ChrisH : what's Soyus?
<sivang> http://www.bookings.org/hotel/es/nhciutatdemataro.html?checkin=;checkout=
<sivang> there's a map
<sivang> http://www.bookings.org/hotel/es/nhciutatdemataro.html?checkin=;checkout=#Hotel%20Photos
<ChrisH> sivang: Niiice. :) Just my styile.
<ChrisH> sivang: However I wonder where on the map is the train station.
<sivang> yes
<ChrisH> sivang: soyus is (from what I know from lulu) a python framework that will handle the package repository in ubuntu
<sivang> what I was actually trying to figure
<sivang> wowowo
<sivang> we must have them give a talk on the first week also
<sivang> :)
<ChrisH> I second that. Pretty important IMHO and I really can't stay for two weeks. During such a long conf I'd expect to have such important issues being displayed more than once.
<ChrisH> From looking through the attendees list I see that hardly anyone attends more than for a few days.
<lulu> guys - we will see what we can do ok! :o)
<ChrisH> lulu: Hey, no offense intended!
<sivang> ChrisH : you see her very nice clownish smiley?
<sivang> (using the 'o' as a nose)
<lulu> ChrisH: none taken :o) I think we can fit in an intro in one of the group sessions in the first week...
<sivang> lulu : we are all thirsty to know more and more about ubuntnu, that's the reason of the demands :)
<ChrisH> lulu: At least I didn't ask to hold the soyus workshop it in my hotel room so I wouldn't need to get up. ;)
<sivang> hhahaha
<lulu> sivang: I know and it's great :o) but I do know that information will be released at exactly the right time  ;) 
<ChrisH> Although...
<sivang> is there anything publically available already about Soyus?
<enrico> sivang: if they told you before, they'd have to kill you :)
<sivang> ahmm, I guess so :)
<enrico> so, how many of the docteam-related BOFs
<sivang> I've seen 2
<sivang> one by Mako,
<sivang> and the other by jdub on hoary documentation goals
<enrico> how many of them before the 9th ?
<sivang> lemm echeck
<sivang> oh no the conf page is in rest :)
<sivang> I wanted to add the new photo links and map of the hotel 
<sivang> Map_ of Barcelona Light Rail.
<sivang> System Message: WARNING/2 (<string>, line 136); backlink
<sivang> Duplicate explicit target name: "map".
* sid77 hi!
<enrico> sid77: hi!
<sid77> a question: which are the guidelines for translating stuff? I mean: some times ago I asked for a "style" problem translating the faq, and I was answered to follow the original style found in the wiki. I've seen that now the Italian Translation page is deeply restructured, is it all ok?
<enrico> sid77: I'd imagine that every translation team has its own guidelines.  However, I (together with lulu and daf) just yesterday posted a message to try to clarify the relationships between the docteam and the translation team, so we may get more clues soon
<sid77> ok
<enrico> sid77: in the meantime, you can ask to the other members of the italian team
<sivang> enrico : could you give me again the command to make procmail reprocess my mail into folders?
<enrico> formail -s procmail < mailbox
<sivang> enrico : ah thank you!
<sivang> btw, can I still use the hornbeck repo?
<sivang> to add content to UB ?
<sivang> (ubuntu book)
<enrico> I'd think so
<sivang> ok
* sivang downaloding the package
<enrico> About packaging the FAQs, I told Sivan that he can find a simple package in http://lento.uncasino.it/enrico/store/openoffice.org-thesaurus-it_0+20041114.orig.tar.gz
<enrico> (that's going to reach unstable after ftpmaster's approval: it'll take like 2 weeks if everything goes well
<enrico> sid77: btw, that's the Italian Thesaurus for OpenOffice!!
<enrico> sid77: and with a supercool history behind it!
<sid77> what?
<sivang> ok I have the pkg
<sivang> enrico?
<sid77> oh, k. read. lol 
<enrico> sivang: yes
<sivang> ok, I'm ready with the package
<enrico> sid77: it's been made by a 3rd grade liceo scientifico high school and their italian teacher
<enrico> sid77: then, other schools and volunteers joined
<sid77> yeah
<enrico> sid77: I asked them to work with the class and the english teacher to write some history of what happened, and to hype themselves a bit, and then include it in the package
<enrico> sivang: have a look at the debian/ directory: it should be minimal
<sid77> ahahahha
<enrico> sivang: if you forget about unpacking the zipfiles, you can see how to install files where you want
<enrico> sivang: of course the FAQs also have a makefile
<enrico> sivang: you also see an example of a simple debian/control, and a postinst file in which you can add commands in case you need to invoke scrollkeeper after the installation
<enrico> sivang: do you have enough to start making a debian/directory now?
<enrico> then we can work from that
<sivang> enrico : I think so, lemme look
<sivang>  tar xvf openoffice.org-thesaurus-it_0+20041114.orig.tar.gz
<sivang> tar: This does not look like a tar archive
<sivang> tar: Skipping to next header
<sivang> tar: Archive contains obsolescent base-64 headers
<sivang> tar: Read 811 bytes from openoffice.org-thesaurus-it_0+20041114.orig.tar.gz
<sivang> tar: Error exit delayed from previous errors
<enrico> sivang: tar zxvf...
<enrico> You forgot the 'z'
<enrico> :)
<sivang> shit
<sivang> :)
<enrico> People... anyone minds if I convert DocumentationTeamCurrentWork to MoinMoin?
<enrico> It's reSt
<sivang> go ahead!
<sivang> :)
<sivang> I got pinched by rest another time today,
<sivang> :)
<sivang> when trying to add a SIMPLE link for the hotel pictures and map
<sivang> why can't it "just work?" :)
<sivang> enrico : looking at the debian folder, it looks good
<sivang> I see I should probably use postinst to call scrollkeeper-update
<enrico> bleh... Moin tables aren't that nice to edit either
<sivang> well they are not,
<sivang> but a simple link should not require to lean another lang right
<sivang> ?
<sivang> I tried so silently to immitate the already resisding link there, and walked slowly away from the interpreter so it won't notice me , and then " BEEEEEEEP!!! YOU'RE BUSTED, WRONG MARKUP DUDE"
<sivang> :0
<sivang> :)
<enrico> I left it in reSt, as in that specific case it's easier to update than MoinMoin
<enrico> sivang: how are you doing?
<sivang> enrico : I have the dir, having trobule syncing the versino from hornbeck's repo, lemme try again.
<enrico> sivang: I did an svn update here and it works
<enrico> what trouble did  you have?
<sivang> working now
<sivang> :)
<sivang> it's updated
<sivang> I'll new create /debian under the source trre of the faq,
<sivang> this is the right way right?
<enrico> yes
<sivang> (and copy the skeleton files into there)
<sivang> done
<sivang> oh and this is now the new "book" not just plain faq anymore, if I recall right,
<sivang> ChrisH ?
<sivang> enrico : first let us start with debian/rules :)
<enrico> sivang: no: first is debian/control
<sivang> yes
<sivang> sorry
<sivang> ok, control
<enrico> sivang: there you decide the package name, if it's arch-indep or arch-dependent, and which are your build-dependencies
<sivang> ok I want to call the pkg ubuntu_handbook
<enrico> that is, first state what you're about to do, then do it :)
<enrico> no underscores
<enrico> ubuntu-handbook is better
<sivang> why no underscores?
<sivang> ubuntu convention?
<enrico> underscore separate the package name from the version in the .deb file name
<enrico> after debian/control, create the initial debian/changelog, so that you have a communication channel with your users and a place ot annonate what you do
<sivang> ok, fields in /control:
<sivang> Source:
<sivang> ubuntu-handbook?
<sivang> why is the meaning of a source/bin pkg when dealing with docs? 
<enrico> Because you always have a source package that creates a binary package.  In this case the terms source and binary are a bit abused; however, you have a source package that generates the packages that get installed
<enrico> the source packages is what you download with "apt-get source".  The "binary" packages is what you download with apt-get install
<enrico> For example, in the source package you don't have the generated .pdf and .html files
<enrico> You generate them when you build the package and then you include them in the 'binary' package
<ChrisH> sivang: You want to create a package from the book? Yes, then it's /debian. But why would anyone need a package from source files for a book?
<enrico> ChrisH: the intention is to package the book itself
<ChrisH> enrico: Uh huh. For yelp/scrollkeeper I assume.
<sivang> ChrisH : when creating a package for such documentation, the package holds the source and calls make on it, after it will register it with scrollkeepr and it would be brwoseable from yelp.
<ChrisH> sivang: k. Now I get it.
<sivang> enrico : I have edited my control, would you like to take a look at it?
<enrico> sivang: sure: did you commit it?
<sivang> enrico : commit? I just edited the file
<enrico> sivang: if you want me to see it, commit it :)
<enrico> the I can fix it and commit it again
<enrico> else, what are we using this subversion server for?
<sivang> ok I'll commit now
<sivang> I just realized
<sivang> I did svn commit and got this:
<sivang> --This line, and those below, will be ignored--
<sivang> M    parts/about/main.xml
<sivang> M    parts/about/chap-ubuntu.xml
<sivang> what does it want from me?
<enrico> You probably modified them
<sivang> I did
<enrico> If you don't remember doint it, you can abort the commit, checkout a fresh version, and work on that one
<enrico> The diff those 2 files and see the modifications
<enrico> If instead you modified those files, it wants to commit them
<enrico> If you only want to commit debian/*, do svn commit debian
<sivang> I want to commit it,
<sivang> I just wq from vi?
<sivang> it new part I added to the book
<sivang> under about ofcourse
<enrico> :q! from vi, then svn will notice it's unchanged and prompt you to abort
<sivang> Authentication realm: <http://69.155.172.150:80> Documentation Team Repository
<sivang> Password for 'pooh':
<enrico> sivang: I imagine you have a password for the repo?
<sivang> yes, but not under the user of pooh
<enrico> so try using --username
<sivang> I should have done something to tell svn sivang is the username?
<enrico> svn help commit
<sivang> k
<sivang> errgh
<sivang> my password doesn not let me in
<sivang> commited
<sivang> finally
* enrico gets it
<enrico> sivang: do an svn status
<enrico> I see your modifications in those 2 files, but not the new debian/* files
<enrico> you probably forgot to do svn add on the new files
<enrico> svn status shows you what's the status of the various files in your local copy
<sivang> ok
<enrico> sivang: did you manage to commit the debian/ directory?
<sivang>  svn status
<sivang> ?      debian
<sivang> ?      parts/about/chap-background.xml
<enrico> the ? means that svn doesn't know anything about them
<enrico> if you want them in the repository, you need to svn add them
<enrico> svn add debian parts/about/chap-background.xml
<enrico> then you'll see them with 'A' instead of '?'
<enrico> and you can commit their addition
<enrico> .
<sivang> recommited
<sivang> check now
<enrico> got it!
<sivang> great
<sivang> do you get the chap-ubuntu changes?
<sivang> (ubuntu background)
<enrico> sivang: yes, also chap-ubunut
<enrico> about control: "Maintainer:" should be you
<enrico> I'll fix it and commit it
<sivang> k, thanks
<sivang> :)
<sivang> it's fun working that way
<enrico> then you can do svn diff and see what changed
<sivang> yes
<enrico> you can fix the copyright file, before we forget about it :)
<sivang> right
<sivang> how do I svn diff?
<enrico> In the description, you say that it can be converted, implying that the package only distributes the docbook sources
<enrico> sivang: svn help diff
<enrico> But the makefile actually builds the HTML version of it
<enrico> We can make a multi-binary package, that is a source package that generates various binary packages: one with the docbook sources for yelp, one with the PDF and the HTML
<enrico> Or we can package everything in a single package
<enrico> I suggest we package everything in a single package, then split it if needed
<sivang> enrico : ok
<sivang> enrico : agreed
<enrico> sivang: committed
<sivang> enrico : ${shlibs:Depends}, <==?
<enrico> Well, we don't need it, so you can delete it.  It would be replaced by library dependencies by a debhelper script that calls 'ldd' on every binary you generate and checks which libraries they depend on
<sivang> what does it mean?
<enrico> sivang: try this.  Do a ldd `which ls`, you'll see which shared libraries 'ls' depends on.  If you call dpkg -S on the full path of all of these libraries, then you get a list of debian package names
<enrico> This is an automated way of knowing which debian library packages are used by ls, and so they should be on 'ls' dependency list
<sivang> wow nice!
<enrico> Since we don't have any binary executable file, we don't need that.
<sivang> I bet somekind of debhelper does it automagically
<enrico> dh_shlibdeps
<sivang> right :)
<sivang>          librt.so.1 => /lib/tls/i686/cmov/librt.so.1 (0x40027000)
<sivang>         libacl.so.1 => /lib/libacl.so.1 (0x4002e000)
<sivang>         libc.so.6 => /lib/tls/i686/cmov/libc.so.6 (0x40035000)
<sivang>         libpthread.so.0 => /lib/tls/i686/cmov/libpthread.so.0 (0x40170000)
<sivang>         /lib/ld-linux.so.2 => /lib/ld-linux.so.2 (0x40000000)
<sivang>         libattr.so.1 => /lib/libattr.so.1 (0x40180000)
<sivang> coooooooool!
<sivang> commited
(enrico/#ubuntu-doc) ubuntulog probably scared it
(sivang/#ubuntu-doc) heheh
(enrico/#ubuntu-doc) warthylog: hello.  have you met ubuntulog?  Maybe you can become friends
(sivang/#ubuntu-doc) haha
(sivang/#ubuntu-doc) they can mate and then have decsendents :)
(enrico/#ubuntu-doc) sivang: committed the new changelog.  If you want to edit it, you can use the 'dch' script: very very handy
(sivang/#ubuntu-doc) commited copyright
(enrico/#ubuntu-doc) also, I don't know if the distribution (on the 1st line of the changelog) shuold be changed for ubuntu.  I think so, but I should ask how
(enrico/#ubuntu-doc) It doesn't matter for now
(enrico/#ubuntu-doc) sivang: the copyright file is perfect!
(sivang/#ubuntu-doc) it is?
(enrico/#ubuntu-doc) it is
(enrico/#ubuntu-doc) now, debian/rules.
(enrico/#ubuntu-doc) you have to add "include /usr/share/cdbs/1/class/makefile.mk
(enrico/#ubuntu-doc) after the include for debhelper
(enrico/#ubuntu-doc) You can remove 'tarball' and its stuff, like the DEB_TAR_SRCDIR and THES_BASE lines
(enrico/#ubuntu-doc) And the UNZIP=-n and export UNZIP lines
<enrico> then, you can test building the package with "fakeroot debian/rules build"
<enrico> That should perform all steps until invoking the makefile and letting it build
<enrico> You can actually checkout also http://69.155.172.150/docutils and see the packaging there
<sivang> I still have to understand how to register it in the scrollkeeper, the docs are bit blurry
<sivang> (for scrollkeeper)
<enrico> It was 2 hours that I was thinking "but I just did the same work a few days ago..." :)
<sivang> and also I want to make a new front page for the first yelp invocation
<sivang> what?
<enrico> One thing at a time: first get a debian package to build, then let it do what you want :)
<sivang> ok :)
<enrico> sivan: You can actually checkout also http://69.155.172.150/docutils and see the packaging there
<sivang> I noticed that :)
<sivang> checking out docutils
<sivang> takes long,strange
<plovs> hi guys
<sivang> enrico : error in docutils, look at the control file . in the description section
<enrico> Oh :)  Polygen
<enrico> Or Proxysperm, Polpybel, Polsybel, Polpiflex
<enrico> (polygen is able to generate its name randomly)
<enrico> fixing it
<enrico> committed
<enrico> sivang: how are you doing with debian/rules?  Does it compile?
<sivang> enrico : finishing to modify it
<sivang> DEB_TAR_SRCDIR=.
<sivang> THES_BASE=build-tree/
<sivang> this is required?
<enrico> sivang: 17:00 < enrico> You can remove 'tarball' and its stuff, like the DEB_TAR_SRCDIR and THES_BASE lines
<enrico> 17:00 < enrico> And the UNZIP=-n and export UNZIP lines
* enrico loves backscroll: it's easier than retype :)
<sivang> sorry
<sivang> woops
<sivang> :)
<sivang> enrico : will you take a look at my rules?
<sivang> (commited)
<enrico> sivang: remove the 'tarball' line, as you don't need to ship a tarball inside your source package to be unpacked at build time
<sivang> /usr/share/cdbs/1/rules/tarball.mk:47: *** You must specify DEB_TAR_SRCDIR.  Stop.
<lulu> plovs:ping
<sivang> oh
<sivang> :)
<enrico> then try 'fakeroot debian/rules build' to see if ti works
<plovs> lulu: hi
<sivang> enrico : it created lots of html files on the parent dir
<sivang> that's all
<enrico> sivang: it went so far as to call the makefile, then.  it doesn't need to do much more
<enrico> we're ok so far
<enrico> Now, we probably have to fix upstream's makefile :)
* enrico hates when he's ALSO upstream
<enrico> sivang: Did you work with makefiles in the past?
<sivang> yes :)
<sivang> enrico : yes, but on low end uni projects, not ones of big projects etc.
<enrico> sivang: good!  So, we probably want to generate the HTML in a subdirectory and a PDF file
<enrico> appearently, xsltproc ignores the target file and just generates tons of html files
<enrico> it probably wants a directory and not a file name, and the directory must exist according to xsltproc manpage
<sivang> enrico : I don't understand how cdbs calls our make file :)
<enrico> It just calls "make" :)
<enrico> If you want to have more parameters passed to it, you can add something like: DEB_MAKE_BUILD_TARGET+="further make options"
<enrico> I'll fix the makefile for you.  moment...
<sivang> tnx
<enrico> sivang: committed
<sivang> ok, let me check out
<sivang> enrico : do you know if ubuntu devs are also using cdbs?
<sivang> fakeroot debian/rules
<sivang> test -x debian/rules
<enrico> sivang: I think it depends on their preference
<sivang> does not using cdbs allows finer grain control over pkg?
<enrico> in theory not, but since cdbs is not that documented yet, one may feel like it because they don't know how to perform changes
<enrico> However, I see two cases:
<plovs> enrico, i have been looking at the man-pages, tomorrow i want to work on the apt apt-pages, where do i put them? do we have something in svn for it?
<enrico> 1) changes over the common practices are small, then use cdbs
<enrico> 2) changes over the common practices are huge, then just do things the old way
<sivang> ok, I get it now
<enrico> plovs: good question
<enrico> plovs: I suggest you just put the changes as patches attached to bug reports in the Debian BTS or the Ubuntu bugzilla
<enrico> That way, the maintainers can pick them up and include them in their packages
<enrico> Oh, wait.  I'm talking about the manpages... what do you mean apt apt-pages?
<sivang> enrico : why does debian rules only does test -x debian/rules ?
<sivang> nothing happens
<enrico> Uhm... it appears that Lupin uses KDE: http://www.blogmatic.net/mie/lupin_linux.avi :)
<sivang> who is Lupin?
<sivang> hehe he recieved a spam
<sivang> :)
<enrico> sivang: really, you don't know who's Lupin?
<sivang> no :
<sivang> :(
<enrico> One of the best Japanese animation thingies: stories of a cool thief
<enrico> In Italy, it's a supercult
<enrico> sivang: got the new makefile?
<enrico> works for you?
<sivang> sec
<sivang> XSLTPROC = /usr/bin/xsltproc --xinclude
<sivang> XSL = ubuntu.xsl
<sivang> .PHONY: all
<sivang> all: html/index.html
<sivang> html/index.html: usersguide.xml $(XSL) $(shell find parts -name '*.xml')
<sivang>         mkdir -p html
<sivang>         $(XSLTPROC) -o html/ $(XSL) $<
<sivang> clean:
<sivang>         rm -rf html/
<sivang> ?
<enrico> Sounds like what I committed, yes
<sivang> ok,
<sivang> when I do fakroot debian/rules
<sivang> i get "test -x debian/rules" and nothing more.
<enrico> it may be because you already built the HTML
<enrico> try make clean and build the package again
<enrico> make doesn't do things that don't need to be done :)
<sivang> the same
<sivang> I did make clean and redid rules,
<sivang> same result
<enrico> show me the output of 'make'
<sivang> make alone does it right,
<sivang> axcluding
<sivang> excluding:
<sivang> warning: failed to load external entity "parts/gnome/main.xml"
<sivang> usersguide.xml:86: element include: XInclude error : could not load parts/gnome/main.xml, and no fallback was found
<sivang> but when I do fakroot debian/rules it just gives:
<sivang> test -x debian/rules
<enrico> sivang: let's see
<enrico> what's in your debian/rules
<enrico> ?
<enrico> here, it all works for me, with only 2 lines in debian/rules (namely, including debhelper.mk and makefile.mk)
<enrico> sivang: around?
* enrico plays dopewars waiting for sivan
* enrico is worried for sivan
<ChrisH> enrico: Perhaps he ran out of batteries again. :)
<enrico> he seems to be still connected: I didn't see its connection time out
* enrico would like to find hornbeck online
<ChrisH> At the conference every Ubuntu maintainer gets an RFID tag implanted. Then we always know where sivang is.
<enrico> I'll start wearing a lead suite :)
<plovs> ChrisH: cool! and then we all go shopping together, peep peep 
<ChrisH> plovs: Better. You don't need to pay. Everything you steal will be automatically charged to your credit card.
* enrico will be a RFID fortune teller
<enrico> In the glass ball, a monitor with the RFID info read from the customer's RFID-enabled passport
<enrico> I see... you're American!
<ChrisH> Hardly. :)
<plovs> is there some way to see what has changed in svn (RecentChanges)
<enrico> And you leave in... Alabama!
<enrico> plovs: svn diff
<enrico> svn -r <an old version> diff
<enrico> or svn log
<plovs> enrico: thanks
<plovs> enrico: i'm ok with putting man-page updates in bugzilla, but svn would give others a chance to look at it as well, i would like to get second opinions
<enrico> plovs: in that case, it's a bit hard to track things right, as the upstream manpage could change in the meantime
<plovs> enrico: then i'll just put it there and others will have to get from there then
<enrico> I'd think so.  I think the likeliness of someone wanting to correct a correction is so low that it doesn't justify optimizing for review (in this case)
<enrico> Remember to post patches, though
<plovs> do we have a page now on naming Ubuntu or UbUntuGnuLinux etc?
<enrico> plovs: I started an ubuntu-doc-tools with XML entities definitions for these ones
<enrico> link coming
<plovs> enrico: are there any plans to make sym-links in the repositories from hoary to stable etc?
<enrico> plovs: svn co http://69.155.172.150/docutils
<enrico> plovs: I don't know about that: I can ask the devels if you want
<enrico> I mean, I can ask #ubuntu-devel
<plovs> enrico: what do you think, i was reading the apt-page and it would simplify things, off course only if we use pinning as well
<enrico> what do you mean with apt-page?
<plovs> the apt man-page
<enrico> ah, ok
<enrico> I'll ask #ubuntu-debvel
<plovs> in bugzilla it was asked to be updated, basically thet is s/Debian/Ubuntu/g and then stable/hoary etc
<plovs> enrico: thanks
<enrico> I report the answer here for the logs: no stable->warty kinds of links, although they do existin the CDs just in case d-i would break without them
<plovs> enrico: ok
<sivang> enrico : here!
<ChrisH> Hey, sivang found his batteries. :)
* enrico is back
<lulu> night all :o)
<sivang> ChrisH : what's RFID tag? :)
<ChrisH> sivang: Ah, sorry, I didn't think of your 3rd world country. ;)
<sivang> yes, you have to explain everything 3 times before we understadn :)
<ChrisH> sivang: That are little transponders that are activated by a electromagnetic field and emit information that is stored.
<ChrisH> sivang: They are introduced in some larger companies to "tag" goods. We at work are using it for more expensive things to track them until they reach the customer.
<enrico> ChrisH: strange that an israelian doesn't know about RFID though
<enrico> I know Israel is quite advanced on surveillance things
<ChrisH> sivang: But it's dangerous. In the US companies are already tagging employees in first tests. Some customers service cards already contain RFIDs without telling the people. So they can track the customer everywhere where they have an antenna installed.
<sivang> ChrisH : oh, I know about this :) just didn't know the acronym
<ChrisH> enrico: Nah, I'm just joking with Sivan because he has some drainage and power problems. ;)
<sivang> OMG
<sivang> enrico : we do, the electric corporation is still in it's beta stage :)
<enrico> otoh, someone is working on a cheap rfid reader detection device, that would beep whenever it's in range of and RFID reader 
<sivang> enrico : I am not really interested in this technologies, actually they are big disgrace to freedom of speech IMHO
<enrico> and a faraday-cage passport holder
<enrico> sivang: very sure
* ChrisH wants an RFID tag that destroys all reader in range ;)
<sivang> haha
<sivang> my order first!
<sivang> when you open the company, ChrisH
<ChrisH> Okay... :)
* ChrisH registeres finaltag.com
<sivang> ;-)
<sivang> enrico : ok, let's get back to the package, ok?
<ChrisH> That reminds me... I need to get the mentors t-shirt done. Oops. Mataro is close.
<enrico> sivang: ok.  last thing I said was: show me your debian/rules
<sivang> yes, too close :)
<sivang> enrico :  cat rules
<sivang> #!/usr/bin/make -f
<sivang> include /usr/share/cdbs/1/rules/debhelper.mk
<sivang> include /usr/share/cdbs/1/class/makefile.mk
<enrico> sivang: it should work, then
<enrico> show me the output of fakeroot debian/rules clean; fakeroot debian/rules build
<enrico> if it's long, mail it
<sivang> mailed
<enrico> sivang: sounds like it works to me
<enrico> now you can add "html/" in debian/docs to have the HTML documentation installed correctly in /usr/share/doc
<enrico> (that is handled by dh_installdocs, called by cdbs.  If you want to know about the format of the docs file, read dh_installdocs manpage)
<sivang> so everything under debian/doc --> {system_root$}/usr/share/doc ?
<enrico> no... you list files inside the debian/docs file, and then dh_installdocs will make sure that they'll be installed in /usr/share/doc/package/...
<sivang> enrico : ok
<sivang> but I didn't make "fakeroot debian/rules" run
<enrico> Sorry, I didn't understand: say it again?
<sivang> enrico : I could not execute "fakeroot debian/rules" and have an html dir ready
<enrico> That should be "fakeroot debian/rules build"
<sivang> ah oops
<enrico> When I do it, then I can "ls -la html" and see the generated files.  You should be able, too
<sivang> I can
<sivang> it works here the same
<sivang> ok,
<sivang> let's go on and finish this package :)
<enrico> Now you can do the debian/docs file and try your luck with "fakeroot debian/rules binary"
<enrico> "fakeroot debian/rules binary" creates the .deb file.  It'll put it in the directory ABOVE the one you run the command
<enrico> To see if a .deb has what you need, you can dive into it using "mc"
<enrico> Or, you can see what went inside it by having a look in debian/ubuntu-handbook
<enrico> sivang: how is it going?
<enrico> sivang: I'll have to leave in 30 minutes or so, but I'll also have to make a phone call
<enrico> however, you're almost there.  The package name mismatches between debian/control and debian/changelog, and that's probably the only showstopper you have to having a .deb file built.  Then, it's just small fixes.
<sivang> I'm here
<sivang> sorry
<enrico> About scrollkeeper, read /usr/share/doc/scrollkeeper/README.Debian
<sivang> ok, I see
<sivang> I will thakns,
<sivang> sounds like I'm really almost there.
<enrico> you can also apt-get source some package which installs scrollkeeper-enabled documentation and see what they do
<enrico> Yes, you're almost there.
<enrico> Use mc to navigate inside .deb files
<enrico> Quit mc and restart it if you suspect it's caching the contents of an old .deb file (sometimes it does it)
<enrico> When you think it could work, try dpkg -i <package>.deb and see what happens: it might even work :)
<enrico> If it doesn't work, you can always "dpkg --purge ubuntu-handbook" and try again
<sivang> ok, thanks alot enrico!
<enrico> sivang: if tonight you have some time, I'd really like you to put down a small technical story on how you packaged this, which could be useful for people learning how to make .deb packages
<enrico> afaik, there are not many beginner's documents about it (although ChrisH may know of some that I don't)
<enrico> I know of none :)
<sivang> ok, I will talk with him also
<sivang> about it
<sivang> anywya, I'm off to the shower and then finish the package,
<sivang> I will not do anything more today bedies finishing the package and writing the newbie howto to the packaging
<ChrisH> Uh... what's that? http://www.ubuntulinux.org/support/documentation/howto/starterguide
<ChrisH> Shouldn't parts of that rather to into the user guide?
<sivangAFK> what is that?
<sivangAFK> anyway, after shower..
<ChrisH> Just found it on the page.
<ChrisH> I just heard that KDE is about to be packaged for ubuntu. Looks like we need to do our screenshots twice. :)
<ChrisH> Forget that... the information is still classified. Sorry, but I need to blank your memories.
<sivang> ChrisH : ok, what is that link used for?
<ChrisH> sivang: Just saw it on the front page. Haven't heard from it before.
<sivang> ah ok, what nm docs are you working on for the bof?
<ChrisH> sivang: The new maintainers/mentoring stuff Mark asked for. However I don't see a meeting for that yet. I hope it's not for the bin.
* netjoined: irc.freenode.net -> saberhagen.freenode.net
#ubuntu-doc 2004-12-12
<sivang> night all!
<enrico> Hello!  Any news of hornbeck?
* sid77 hi
<plovs> good morning
<ChrisH> plovs: hi :)
<lulu_> morning all :o)
<enrico> Hello!  Someone has seen Hornbeck online recently?
<ChrisH> enrico: He's not in my lastlog.
<sivang> hi enrico1
<sivang> enrico
<sivang> hi all
<enrico> Hi!
<ChrisH> hornbeck has posted to -doc today that he is still alive. :)
<sivang> hah
<sivang> Hi ChrisH
<sivang> :)
<sivang> hey lulu_ Q
<sivang> !
<ChrisH> sivang: Hey, Ivan.
<ChrisH> sivang: Already packed your bags?
<sivang> hey, isn't that too early for that?
<sivang> I like to keep everything to the lasst minute, than forget as much as I can :)
<sivang> we're only on the 1st
<enrico> sivang: so, does the package compile?
<sivang> enrico : let me check again, and tell you what it tells me
<sivang> btw, does someone knows how to switch workspaces in gnome using the keybord? the mouse is killing me..
<enrico> ALT+arrows
<enrico> maybe :)
<ChrisH> Ctrl+Alt+Arrows
<lulu__> sivang: hiya! 
<sivang> I'm here
<enrico> So, package build output?
<enrico> I mean does it build?
<sivang> login as: pooh
<sivang> Password:
<sivang> Linux tiny 2.4.26-1-386 #1 Tue Aug 24 13:31:19 JST 2004 i586 GNU/Linux
<sivang> The programs included with the Debian GNU/Linux system are free software;
<sivang> the exact distribution terms for each program are described in the
<sivang> individual files in /usr/share/doc/*/copyright.
<sivang> Debian GNU/Linux comes with ABSOLUTELY NO WARRANTY, to the extent
<sivang> permitted by applicable law.
<sivang> Last login: Wed Dec  1 19:43:41 2004 from 132.68.159.248
<sivang> pooh@tiny:~$ ssh 192.168.1.71
<sivang> pooh@tiny:~$ ssh 192.168.1.77
<sivang> Password:
<enrico> sivang: !
<sivang> Linux tigershark 2.6.8.1-3-686-smp #1 SMP Fri Nov 26 23:14:47 UTC 2004 i686 GNU/
<sivang> Linux
<sivang> The programs included with the Ubuntu system are free software;
<sivang> the exact distribution terms for each program are described in the
<sivang> individual files in /usr/share/doc/*/copyright.
<enrico> We're not interested in your login messages :)
<sivang> Ubuntu comes with ABSOLUTELY NO WARRANTY, to the extent permitted by
<sivang> applicable law.
<sivang> No mail.
<sivang> Last login: Wed Dec  1 17:46:49 2004 from tiny
<sivang> pooh@tigershark ~ $ clear
<sivang> pooh@tigershark ~ $
<sivang> pooh@tigershark ~ $
<sivang> pooh@tigershark ~ $ cd devel/
<sivang> pooh@tigershark ~/devel $ ks
<sivang> -bash: ks: command not found
<sivang> pooh@tigershark ~/devel $ ls
<sivang> docteam
<sivang> pooh@tigershark ~/devel $ cd docteam/
<sivang> pooh@tigershark ~/devel/docteam $ ls
* enrico appreciates the clear to get rid of the login messages we're not interested in :))
<sivang> faq  STJ
<sivang> pooh@tigershark ~/devel/docteam $ cd faq/
<sivang> pooh@tigershark ~/devel/docteam/faq $ ls
<sivang> docutils  faq
<sivang> pooh@tigershark ~/devel/docteam/faq $ cd faq/
<sivang> pooh@tigershark ~/devel/docteam/faq/faq $ ls
<sivang> debian  IconUbuntu.png  Makefile  parts  README  ubuntu.xsl  usersguide.xml
<sivang> pooh@tigershark ~/devel/docteam/faq/faq $ clear
<sivang> pooh@tigershark ~/devel/docteam/faq/faq $ ls -la
<sivang> total 20
<sivang> drwxr-xr-x   5 pooh pooh  129 2004-11-30 21:10 .
<sivang> drwxr-xr-x   4 pooh pooh   31 2004-11-30 18:09 ..
<sivang> drwxr-xr-x   3 pooh pooh  156 2004-11-30 21:32 debian
<sivang> -rw-r--r--   1 pooh pooh 2175 2004-11-21 21:42 IconUbuntu.png
<sivang> -rw-r--r--   1 pooh pooh  355 2004-11-30 18:42 Makefile
<sivang> drwxr-xr-x  11 pooh pooh  141 2004-11-21 21:42 parts
<sivang> -rw-r--r--   1 pooh pooh 2258 2004-11-21 21:42 README
<sivang> drwxr-xr-x   7 pooh pooh  153 2004-12-01 00:04 .svn
<sivang> -rw-r--r--   1 pooh pooh  779 2004-11-21 21:42 ubuntu.xsl
<sivang> -rw-r--r--   1 pooh pooh 3147 2004-11-30 16:43 usersguide.xml
<sivang> pooh@tigershark ~/devel/docteam/faq/faq $
<sivang> pooh@tigershark ~/devel/docteam/faq/faq $
<sivang> pooh@tigershark ~/devel/docteam/faq/faq $ svn update
<sivang> At revision 73.
<sivang> sec
<sivang> I think it's not buildgin
<sivang> sorry?
<sivang> I don't get it the joke, I apologize if I did any wrong
* sivang 's teeth aches are a bit of distraction :)
<sivang> ahh
<sivang> that damn putty
<sivang> I can copy and paste like a normal *nix being
<sivang> !
<sivang> can=can't
<sivang>  fakeroot debian/rules build
<sivang> test -x debian/rules
<sivang> if [ -n "" ] ; then \
<sivang>   mkdir -p ""; \
<sivang> fi
<sivang> if [ ! -d "." ] ; then \
<sivang>   mkdir -p "."; \
<sivang> fi
<sivang> /usr/share/cdbs/1/rules/buildcore.mk:59: "DEB_BUILD_MAKE_TARGET is a deprecated variable"
<sivang> /usr/share/cdbs/1/rules/buildcore.mk:59: "DEB_CLEAN_MAKE_TARGET is a deprecated variable"
<sivang> /usr/share/cdbs/1/rules/buildcore.mk:59: "DEB_MAKE_TEST_TARGET is a deprecated variable"
<sivang> if [ -z "" ] ; then \
<sivang>   if ! test -f debian/compat; then echo 4 > debian/compat; fi; \
<sivang> fi
<sivang> ah
<sivang> finally
<sivang> that was it did
<sivang> enrico : still there or have you given up on me completely ? :)
<enrico> I'm here
<enrico> upstream builds.  Now let's build the debian package:
<enrico> fakeroot debian/rules binary
<sivang> why wasn't I getting the /html dir?
<enrico> Because you wasn't saying "build" after debian/rules, IIRC
<sivang> ok, that what debian/rules bianry gives:
<sivang> dpkg-gencontrol: error: source package has two conflicting values - ubuntu-handbook and ubuntu-book
<sivang> dh_gencontrol: command returned error code 65280
<sivang> make: *** [binary-makedeb-IMPL/ubuntu-handbook]  Error 1
<enrico> sivang: that you can fix it without hints
* ChrisH needs to check what cdbs does
<sivang> yes, just noticed it :)
<enrico> ChrisH: it does everything you need, and without asking :)
<ChrisH> enrico: Sounds like a Microsoft promise. :)
<enrico> Eh.  But it also works! :)
<sivang> enrico : I just did svn update, so we probably have the same files, now I don't get why it builds for you and for me it doesn't
<enrico> sivang: what is that doesn't build?
<enrico> I get the same error that you get, while building the .deb 
<sivang> enrico : when I just type "fakeroot debian/rules build"
<sivang> enrico : but I have the deb created by now :)
<enrico> so, have a look inside with mc
<sivang> ok
<sivang> I am inside the package
<sivang> what to do now?
<enrico> check if usr/share/doc/... inside the package contains the documentation that you would like it to contain
<sivang> ChrisH : CDBS = Common Debian Build System
* sivang runs and checks
<sivang> it only has : README, changelog.Debian.gz, copyright :(
<enrico> sivang: where is the debian/docs file?
<enrico> sivang: also asked as: where does the package installs the documentation in the right place? :)
<sivang> enrico : hmm, I wanted to create it, but then man dh_installdocs didn't say anything about the format of the docs file, I'll google for it and see what I can find
<sivang> enrico : then it got too late and I headed to sleep :)
<enrico> sivang: also pull back the log of that discussion, as I think I've been telling you about it
<enrico> 20:13 < enrico> now you can add "html/" in debian/docs to have the HTML documentation installed correctly
<enrico> in /usr/share/doc
<ChrisH> sivang: another layer on top of the debhelper?
<sivang> ChrisH : I think so :)
<enrico> ChrisH: the definitive layer on top of everything :)
<ChrisH> sivang: Then I will write the kcdbswizard which will provide a wizard for writing CDBS rules into the debian/rules file. :)
<sivang> hahahah
<enrico> I don't think you can simplify CDBS much more
<ChrisH> debian/rules is tricky enough already and I found a lot of corners where debhelper isn't even sufficient. I'm curious. Perhaps I'll look into that later. :)
<enrico> It lets you make rules files with just one or two lines
<ChrisH> enrico: And that still works? :)
<sivang> enrico : oh sorry , I overlooked it :( 
<enrico> ChrisH: the nice thing it has is that it allows you to say "do it like everyone does", and then specify only where you diverge from common practice
<enrico> So, to package a correctly autotoolized package, you need to do just nothing
<sivang> this somewhat reminds me of "dpkg-delta" that was discussed the past few days on -devel
<sivang> in an association ofcourse, not in functionality
<ChrisH> enrico: So I spent two years of packaging practise and now can't impress anyone with it? Darn... :)
<enrico> ChrisH: no, no: you can.  In fact, cdbs is totally undocumented.  So, to be able to have an empty debian/rules file, you must be absolutely knowledge of everything that happens.  The empty debian/rules becomes a symbol of your masterdom :)
<ChrisH> enrico: Hehe.
<ChrisH> enrico: I talked to the Squid maintainer recently and he said he even hates debhelper. Instead he did it all on his own using shell commands. What a mess...
<sivang> enrico : ok, I fixed some more stuff in the pkg control files
<sivang> enrico : but still it doesn't build
<sivang> enrico : my debian/docs files looks like this:
<sivang> html/
<sivang> [end] 
<sivang> and still fakeroot debian/rules build gives:
<sivang>  fakeroot debian/rules build
<sivang> test -x debian/rules
<sivang> if [ -n "" ] ; then \
<sivang>   mkdir -p ""; \
<sivang> fi
<sivang> if [ ! -d "." ] ; then \
<sivang>   mkdir -p "."; \
<sivang> fi
<sivang> /usr/share/cdbs/1/rules/buildcore.mk:59: "DEB_BUILD_MAKE_TARGET is a deprecated variable"
<sivang> /usr/share/cdbs/1/rules/buildcore.mk:59: "DEB_CLEAN_MAKE_TARGET is a deprecated variable"
<sivang> /usr/share/cdbs/1/rules/buildcore.mk:59: "DEB_MAKE_TEST_TARGET is a deprecated variable"
<sivang> if [ -z "" ] ; then \
<sivang>   if ! test -f debian/compat; then echo 4 > debian/compat; fi; \
<sivang> and nothing more
<enrico> ChrisH: sounds like Manoj?
<enrico> No, it's not
<sivang> what?
<enrico> sivang: do a fakeroot debian/rules clean; fakeroot debian/rules binary
<sivang> ok
<enrico> sivang: I was talking to ChrisH 
<sivang> ah!
<sivang> working!
<sivang> :)
<sivang> at last
<sivang> I would just love know what I did wrong :)
<sivang> checked the pacakge,
<sivang> it _has_ content this time
<sivang> :)
<enrico> Cheers for sivan's first Debian package!
<enrico> W00T!
<sivang> ah, this word I havn't heared since last time talking to my scottish freind!
<sivang> he lives on Lawton
<ChrisH> enrico: not Manoj this time
<sivang> ok,
<sivang> now to learn how to register files into scrollkeeper and we have the first original ubuntu doc team pacakge
<sivang> :)
<sivang> lib is closing..:)
<sivang> shift suprevisor beggs people to leave now, hehe
<sivang> :)
<enrico> sivang: later, then
<sivang> however most of the ignore him currently ;)
<sivang> enrico : ok, I'll be back online when laptop is free again/in an hour
<sivang> enrico : I sudo dpkg -i <pkg> , works without a glitch
<sivang> :-0
<sivang> :-)
<sivang> ok, bye for now everybody, c'ya in a bunch
<enrico> He was so happy he forgot to commit :)
<enrico> sivang: commit!
<sivang> ok I will NOW!
<sivang> :)
<enrico> Or you may want to try scrollkeepering as well
<enrico> and don't forget doc-base :)
<sivang> ha?
<sivang> doc-base is for man pages only isn't it?
<enrico> No: it's to index documentation
<enrico> see dh_installdocs manpage
<sivang> ok, I'll read it to the end now :)
<enrico> and also see the documentation inside the doc-base package
<sivang> ok, then I'll install doc-base firstly
<sivang> commited
<sivang> please check :)
<sivang> I don't think the package has been uploaded there though
<sivang> I need to svn add it probably
<enrico> don't svn add the package
<enrico> Since it can be generated automatically from the rest
<enrico> sivang: svn stauts
<enrico> will probably tell you that you forgot to add debian/docs :)
<enrico> always do svn status before a commit
<sivang> enric : how can I remove a file/dir from the svn commit log ? (so it won't commit it)
<sivang> I accidently added the ubuntu-handbook dir
<sivang> that was created under debian
<enrico> sivang: svn rm debian/ubuntu-handbook
<sivang> ok, I did it :)
<sivang> enrico : now, do I need debian/files or can I remove it? I want to clean up the package dir
<sivang> it contains:
<sivang> ubuntu-handbook_0.1-1_all.deb text optional
<enrico> sivang: to clean up the package dir, do "fakeroot debian/rules clean"
<sivang> ok
<sivang> beautiful!
<sivang> :)
<sivang> ok, I commited
<sivang> you can now check on me
<enrico> great!
<enrico> yelp time!
<enrico> scrollkeeper!
<enrico> I have no idea what needs to be done for that, though
<enrico> I suggest you find a package which provides docs for yelp, and we see what they do
<enrico> Pick one from "apt-cache showpkg yelp" (shows reverse dependencies) and let's see
<sivang> ok
<sivang> but,
<sivang> I didn't finsih with doc-base yet
<lulu__> night all :o)
<sivang> is the hornbeck repo still online?
<ChrisH> sivang: affirmative
<sivang> I am trinyg to co but
<sivang> pooh@bluespace ~/devel/faq $ svn co http://69.155.172.150/faq
<sivang> svn: PROPFIND request failed on '/faq'
<sivang> svn: PROPFIND of '/faq': 400 Bad Request (http://69.155.172.150)
<ChrisH> sivang: "svn update"?
<sivang> don't I need to check out first if I wawnt to download to a new folder/mchine?
<ChrisH> sivang: yes
<ChrisH> sivang: old proxy in between you and hornbeck?
<sivang> maybe
<ChrisH> sivang: I needed to enable those request methods in a very very very old version of squid once upon a time
<ChrisH> sivang: do you have a squid?
<sivang> I have to go now,
<sivang> sorry
<sivang> (lib closing :)
<sivang> ChrisH ; ttl
<ChrisH> sivang: :)
<enrico> hello sivang !
<enrico> how's with scrollkeeper and docbase?
<sivang> still reading...
<enrico> sivang: ok, take your time
<ChrisH> enrico: May I bother you with my draft (two pages and a drawing) of the new maintainers paper I'm preparing? I remotely remember you offered to take a look. :)
<sivang> ChrisH : I also offered to help, as the first one going under the NM process :
<sivang> :)
<sivang> help=take a look
<enrico> ChrisH: sure!
* ChrisH is pdf'ing the docs
<ChrisH> http://workaround.org/ubuntu/nm/
<ChrisH> I admit the drawing is ugly and the text doesn't look like O'Reilly... but it's more about brainstorming of what could be done how.
<ChrisH> Would be glad to get critics on it. I'm feeling a bit lost about what Mark would expect.
<sivang> ChrisH : the text looks nice and sane :)
<sivang> havn't looked at the drawing yet
<enrico> s/contributers/contributors/
<ChrisH> k
<sivang> the drawing I seem to not completly understand, maybe due to lack of policy knowledge :)
<ChrisH> sivang: Well, it's an uploading workflow. Would help to say a few words. :)
<ChrisH> sivang: The upload uploads the package, then it gets checked, then some other things happen, then it gets reviewed and finally is put into the repositories.
<ChrisH> sivang: It's a possible workflow from the thoughts I gathered in the text document.
<ChrisH> sivang: But as there does not seem to be even an NM meeting/BOF during my stay it may be hard to submit this information.
<sivang> ChrisH : I like VERY much the high attention to details, I don't think canonical has yet thought about it in such a way :)
<ChrisH> sivang: So I wanted to check with enrico and you and perhaps just give it to him. lulu said he has hardly any time for personal talks.
<ChrisH> sivang: I just tried to figure out how it could look. There are not yet "roles". And if you ask anyone from Canonical you get unclear answers about who is allowed what.
<ChrisH> sivang: That would be the kind of information I needed first. :)
<enrico> ChrisH: at the conf you can talk with many canonical people.  Mako would be a good one.  Elmo will be there, too, although he usually doesn't talk :)
<sivang> ChrisH : and that you've listed so many use cases, so if this actually gets realized little or no modification would be needed to the perliminary design should should problems arise.
<sivang> Mark is going to be mighty busy then
<sivang> if lulu said this
<enrico> he was mighty busy in Oxford, so I imagine he'll be even more
<sivang> Well, we could always talk to Matt Zimmerman and Jeff Vaugh
<sivang> we=you, ChrisH
* ChrisH knows none of the DDs/canonicalistas personally
<enrico> ChrisH: I've read the first page
<ChrisH> Well, Mark asked me to sum this up. So I assume it's not for the bin. :)
<enrico> the impression so far is that it would allow a very slick workflow, but it risks creating many conflicts since one doesn't have a well-delimited territory.  This may not be bad, but needs some ways for conflict resolution for the system to scale
<enrico> but I still haven't read the second page: hang on
<ChrisH> enrico: What conflicts would you think of? Dependencies? Concurring package versions?
<enrico> ChrisH: I mean two people with different views on how to package something, or on how to fix a bug, or if a version should go in or not
<enrico> Since everyone can upload any package, I can see scenarios in which I upload, you upload because you think yours is better, I upload because I think mine is better and so on
<sivang> I think that people who are granted the title " maintainers" should be able to upload,
<ChrisH> enrico: Mark's vision was to allow anyone (module people not having a trusted PGP key) to upload packages.
<sivang> others should be reviewed excluding specific conditions.
<ChrisH> enrico: So the hassle of an NM process for people who just want to upload would not be necessary.
<enrico> ChrisH: I think it's a nice idea.
<enrico> ChrisH: I'm just asking myself what happens in case of a conflict
<sivang> allowing everybody to upload can create a tramendous workload on the review process.
<enrico> ChrisH: maybe a moderator?
<sivang> and ofcourse, we need to keep main clean as possilbe,
<sivang> as this can break production system to no avail
<enrico> Or if there is a conflich, the tech team or the community council can rule on it
<ChrisH> enrico: He even does not want to have package stickyness. Nobody "owns" a package - everybody can upload. Of course some human interaction would be needed to not rush things.
<enrico> then if one doesn't comply, upload with his key can be suspended for a while
<sivang> sounds good, enrico
<sivang> I suggest a very strict automatic checking is done on the packages,
<ChrisH> enrico: Yes, the "moderator" would be a good idea. There needs to be a way to handle less- and more-experienced packageers.
<sivang> uh0ha
<enrico> ChrisH: like a karma, then?
<ChrisH> enrico: I would suggest to have just a policy check for the gurus and a better "mentoring" for the less fortunate.
<ChrisH> enrico: Perhaps like a karma. I just wouldn't know what to do with the karma. :)
<sivang> so any package that does not complye with main rules should be discarded with maybe a message to the uploaded, that if he wants his package accepted he should contact a tech board member and consult him
<ChrisH> enrico: karma=0 => full mentoring. karma>10=> automatic checks. karma>100 => access to Mark's bank account
<sivang> uploaded=uploader
<sivang> hmmm
<sivang> 100 sounds nice
<enrico> Maybe it could be left anarchic at the beginning, with some entity able to rule over conflicts, and then if conflicts happen too often, one can look at ways to make things scale
<ChrisH> sivang: Something like that.
<sivang> although just becoming a canonical employe would be enough for me :)
<enrico> ChrisH: you actually displayed a very nice NM process: at the beginning, one checks everything you do.  When one gets confident, releases things, until you're considered fully a maintainer
<sivang> a system for managing packages creation "trust management" is needed :)
<enrico> Testing by practice
<sivang> basically, this is actually how it's done currently, as list per the first full process NM candidate :)
<sivang> I have to CC pitti evrything I work on wrt to devel, and update him on my advancement.
<ChrisH> enrico: I still would like to have a feature like "mentoring wanted". I wish packageers could set a "help" flag (perhaps in the "control" file) where they plea for mentoring. So even if the package is clean they need some "sponsor" to help them create better packages.
<sivang> He is also sponsering my uploads when he will be confident enough in me,
<sivang> (to take my pkgs and upload)
<sivang> and in the meanwhile I only work through patchs in the bugzilla
<sivang> brb
* sivang sivangAFK
<enrico> ChrisH: information about users, I'd add a copy of a piece of ID, or home address or something, in order for someone to be able to come and pick you up in case you upload malicious code
<ChrisH> enrico: hehe
<enrico> Sure, mentoring wanted is nice.  But it may be better implemented, I think, by uploading in experimental and then asking for help in some list
<enrico> Experimental is like a wiki in which you drop packages, and then people can have a look and tell you what they think
<ChrisH> Yes, I thought about a second uploading pool. The normal pool and an iffy pool.
<enrico> but then you have "iffy" and "experimental"
<enrico> what is the difference between the two?
<ChrisH> I thought about "normal" (like in the workflow) and "iffy" (like a request-for-comments area) where packages are never included in the distribution but other people are asked to review it.
<ChrisH> Basically 'iffy' and 'experimental' are the same.
<ChrisH> 'iffy' just would mean that it's not just there for the matter of their existence but that the uploader asks for help/review explicitly.
<ChrisH> I don't like the NM process in Debian at all. And although Mark's vision and some of my proposals may sound revolutionarily insecure I think it could be a valid way to go. There are just people in Debian who like to get sponsored because they are too iffy about the work they do. Would be really bad to have a flood of badly packaged programs in the pool just because it's made too easy.
<enrico> but also in experimental one would ask for help/review explicitly, isn't it?
<ChrisH> enrico: I think you are right.
<enrico> Oh, don't get me wrong: I do agree this is indeed an interesting process to try!
<enrico> And I like the idea of having different levels of involvement, and slowly go from one to the other as you prove you work well
<ChrisH> enrico: Is it too far fetched? Perhaps you know more about the package handling in Ubuntu. That's why I'm anxious if what I wrote is too incompletely or just plainly wrong because things cannot be handled what way (talking about "soyus" for example).
<enrico> Like, I'm sponsoring a person that always makes his packages right.  After 10 times, I'd really like him/her to be able to just upload directly to unstable, as I'm not checking his/her packages anymore anyway
<enrico> ChrisH: unfortunately, I don't know much about soyuz and the other supercool things they're making
<enrico> I just know they're making supercool things :)
<enrico> Can't wait in Matar to see some prototypes
<enrico> Last time in Oxford you could only see ER diagrams at the walls :)
<sivang> this would be cool to see what came out of those ER diagram
<sivang> :)
<enrico> Oh, yes :)
<sivang> hey plovs
<plovs> sivang: hi!
<sivang> hi again,
<sivang> still problems with the network?
<plovs> no, just working
<plovs> and having problems with my mouse
<plovs> duh
<sivang> oh, you seemed very  busy in work the last couple of days :)
<sivang> oh well, that's always a good thing.
<sivang> enrico : I have a dh_installdocs question
<plovs> yes, trying to get vpn woprking, but its not so simple with our network layout
<enrico> sivang: sure!
<sivang> plovs : at home ? or are you proxing through work still/\?
<plovs> im at work atm
<sivang> enrico : how come in all of the dh_installdocs man page there is not even a single referencec to debian/docs text file?
<sivang> nothing about it's format, etc
<enrico> ChrisH: anyhow, I think it's an interesting proposal.  Besides conflict resolution (for which we've seen possibilities), I don't think I have much to add
<enrico> ChrisH: then, if it doesn't match with Soyuz, it's Mark that'll have to tell you what Soyuz is anyway ;)
<enrico> sivang: there is here
<enrico> sivang: although very tiny:
<enrico>        Files named debian/package.docs can list other files to be installed.
<enrico> that's it :)
<sivang> oh :)
<sivang> but I created a file JUST named "docs"
<sivang> under debian
<sivang> not, package.docs
<enrico> "docs" is a shortcut for "package.docs" in case you only generate a single binary package
<sivang> I am confused
<enrico> (well, the manpage doesn't say that)
<sivang> ah
* plovs is  thinking about going into american politics, computers are too difficult for me
<enrico> plovs: you're too intelligent for american politics
<enrico> plovs: you can spell
<sivang> plovs : nahh! they're not :) and yes, you are MUCH too intelligent for american politics = YOU KNOW ReST for heavens sake! :))
<enrico> plovs: the trendy thing now is people who can launch missiles they can't spell
* sivang is still puzzled by ReST
<enrico> plovs: nucular weppons
* plovs cries, another career lost...
* sivang is considering running for american politics, havnig no real skills :)
<sivang> hehehe
<sivang> everytime I try play with rest, it hits me! 
* sivang should really study it carefully though
<plovs> enrico: have you ever wondered if he does it on purpose? a person can not be that dumb can he?
<enrico> I think it can
<sivang> plovs : who ?
<enrico> There are no limits to human stupidity
<plovs> terrorist try hard to hurt amerika, so are we...
<sivang> plovs : who is the dumb guy?
<ChrisH> back... (Marco doesn't sleep well tonight)
<plovs> a bush-quote
<sivang> oh
<sivang> :)
<enrico> I have an Ockam Razor: if it can be because of stupidity, it is
<sivang> but let's not talk politics,
<enrico> plovs: that quote is cute
<sivang> I get a bad irritation by it
<sivang> :)
<plovs> sivang: agreed
* sivang scratches
<ChrisH> enrico, sivang: thanks for your suggestions. I'll still think about the levels of karma. Perhaps I find something more.
<sivang> ChrisH : no problem buddy :) I am always interested in commeting :)
<enrico> ChrisH: that was just a random thing thrown there.  Thinking more about it now, I think it shouldn't be introduced right from the start, but just if you see later that the community could use it
<enrico> ChrisH: I think conflict resolution by the CC would be better as a starter
<enrico> ChrisH: more things should come if that is used too much
<ChrisH> enrico: I like the idea of karma. Although I wouldn't like to have people compare who has more of it.
<sivang> measures to take out competition is a very good idea indeed, we just need to see how we can keep out those code abusers from abusing such a wonderfully open, FOSS revolutionary approach
<enrico> sivang: Oh, you wouldn't be anonymous, which means you are less encouraged to abuse
<enrico> sivang: EHI!  And scrollkeeper? :)
<sivang> enrico : oh right
<sivang> enrico : I've switched to scrollkeepr now, I'll first make it work in yelp and then register it in doc-base
<sivang> enrico : that may not be ready today, though. It usually takes me some time to digest and then I produce :)
<sivang> tommorow latest.
<enrico> sivang: take your time.  Don't forget about it, because I'm curious :)
<sivang> k, no prob
<sivang> :)
<ChrisH> It's somehow different to go there with the family instead of just hanging around with some drunken developers in a tavern even spanish people have ever heard of and eating cold pizza in the morning.
* plovs wonders, no pizza, and no old cola as well?
<ChrisH> Sure, I always forget about the old cola. :)
<enrico> pay attention to calimocho
<enrico> Spaniards mix cola with bad red wine
<enrico> The results makes you drunk for cheap and doesn't taste like vinegar
<enrico> it's called "calimocho"
<ChrisH> How much can an average DD take of that? :)
<enrico> I prefer Sangria, honestly
* plovs wonders how people get drunk, not drinking wodka
* enrico will bring grappa to plovw
* enrico will bring grappa to plovs
<ChrisH> Yay... Sangria is nice. And a good paella.
<ChrisH> Wodka, grappa? Bah. That's car fuel.
<plovs> enrico: what is grappa?
<enrico> plovs: the italian way to strong alchool.  Doesn't give you headache the next morning, though
<enrico> plovs: really harsh, but leaves a good taste in your mouth if it comes from good grapes
<plovs> ah, i hardly ever drink vodka, only with sostroming
<enrico> plovs: google gives you something
<enrico> plovs: wine.about.com/libraries/types/bl_grappa.htm
<ChrisH> Another member of mentors.debian.net has created his own flavor of "winetea". :) http://winetea.mine.nu
<ChrisH> He is also an Italian... but he won't come.
<sivang> people, I'm out
<sivang> tired
<sivang> night all!
<plovs> good night
<enrico> plovs: good night!
#ubuntu-doc 2005-12-12
<bshumate> well, bhuvan had suggested i use the role attribute for emphasis tags, and frankly, i have no idea how, and i hate to keep pestering him with questions! ;-)
<mdke> pester him!
<mdke> :)
<mdke> thanks for your recent work bshumate, it's great to see new contributors such as yourself
<bshumate> hey, i am having a ball!  really enjoying ubuntu on my thinkpad, and hoping for an edubuntu PPC version to try out with my kids!  this is by far my favorite Linux distro of all time!  i am happy to be a part of it, and finally start giving back to the community!
* bshumate plots a pester for bhuvan
<mdke> bshumate, awesome
<LaserJock_meetin> mdke: ping?
<bshumate> hey thanks for all the help bhuvan!  i am posting a mostly complete version of the server guide windows networking part in just a second
<LaserJock> hi theCore
<theCore> hi
<theCore> LaserJock, i started to make the guide in multiple files already
<LaserJock> theCore: cool
<LaserJock> theCore: I became a Ubuntu member this morning so I hope that I will be able to commit to the doc-team repo soon
<theCore> LaserJock, you will need to fill the legal stuff because i don't know what to put
<theCore> LaserJock, nice
<LaserJock> theCore: no problem, we just need content right now ;-)
<theCore> LaserJock, so what did you got ?
<theCore> LaserJock, do you have additional privileges?
<theCore> LaserJock, do you think it would be good to merge the Introduction into Getting Started ?
<LaserJock> theCore: not sure. we will have to see.
<LaserJock> theCore: you have to be a member before you can be a MOTU and I think you also get a @ubuntu.com email address and irc hostname cloak
<theCore> LaserJock, cool
<theCore> LaserJock, i hope i could be too a ubuntu member
<theCore> LaserJock, how much time it took you to become a Ubuntu member ?
<LaserJock> right now I am working on a email to the ubuntu-motu mailing list asking for feedback on our outline
<LaserJock> theCore: you need to have contributed for about 2 months
<theCore> LaserJock, it isn't too long, I though it was 1 or 2 years of active contribution :)
<theCore> LaserJock, good idea
<theCore> LaserJock, there is quite a lot of docs about packaging on the wiki ...
<LaserJock> theCore: yes, that is good an bad
<theCore> LaserJock, why ?
<LaserJock> theCore: well, it is good to have info, but on the wiki info can get scattered and can be out-dated or incorrect sometimes
<theCore> LaserJock, ah okay
<LaserJock> theCore: I think the wiki is better as a drawing board and collaboration tool before making things more permanent and polished
<theCore> LaserJock, that what I though, writing in DocBook in quite unnatural
<theCore> LaserJock, does it happen to you sometime to get the "gobbing character" bug in gedit ?
<LaserJock> theCore: I don't use gedit very much so I haven't seen that
<LaserJock> theCore: ok, I gotta get to bed. Email me what you've done so far when you have the chance.
<theCore> LaserJock, okay
<theCore> LaserJock, good night
<LaserJock> good night
<jjesse> anyone around?
<Burgwork> yep
<jjesse> just seems awful quiet :0
<Burgwork> been not working on Ubuntu recently
<jjesse> me either, been really busy w/ work and stuff
<LaserJock> mdke: ping?
<mdke> LaserJock, pong
<mdke> actually, no, brb
<mdke> (sorry)
<LaserJock> lol
<LaserJock> hi theCore 
<theCore> LaserJock, hi
<theCore> LaserJock, anything new ?
<LaserJock> theCore: not really. I'm busy with real life work, etc. I haven't got much of a reply from the MOTU yet but probably take a bit.
<theCore> LaserJock, are you chemist?
<LaserJock> theCore: yes, 4th Phd student in Physical Chemistry
<LaserJock> 4th year, that is
<theCore> LaserJock, wow, i wanna be a chemist too
<LaserJock> theCore: really, cool
<theCore> LaserJock, or something related to science
<theCore> LaserJock, yea, i even pushed my college entry by 1 year, just to get Natural Science course
<LaserJock> cool
<mdke> LaserJock, now, sup?
<LaserJock> mdke: well, I got membership yesterday
<mdke> yeah cool, sorry about my failure to turn up
<LaserJock> mdke: np, I made it pretty easily I think. They didn't even ask me any questions really
<mdke> :)
<mdke> knew it
<LaserJock> I also emailed the ubuntu-motu mailing list about the packaging guide.
<LaserJock> theCore and I worked on an outline at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuPackagingGuide/Outline
<mdke> rocking
<jjesse> LaserJock: that outline looks great
<LaserJock> mdke: I think perhaps jgotangco emailed elmo about getting me commit acesss to the repo
<LaserJock> jjesse: thanks, feel free to send feedback
<mdke> cool
<mdke> LaserJock, that should be done via an rt request
<LaserJock> mdke: ?
<mdke> application for commit access should be done via an rt request, if possible
<LaserJock> mdke: what is rt?
<mdke> it is the system of admin requests that canonical have
<mdke> i guess it is "request tracker"
<LaserJock> mdke: so do I need to do anything for that?
<mdke> LaserJock, maybe jerome did that
<jjesse> request tracker is www.bestpractical.com product
<jjesse> its a great helpdesk software
<jjesse> we use it at work
<HrdwrBoB> we used perldesk
<HrdwrBoB> (though at that stage it was free and we heavily modified it)
<LaserJock> mdke: so should I join the ubuntu-doc LP team?
<mdke> sure
<LaserJock> theCore: what sections have you worked on so far?
<theCore> LaserJock, the preface, the intro, and toc
<jjesse> do you guys need someone to commit something?
<theCore> LaserJock, but they really beta right now
<LaserJock> theCore: k
<LaserJock> jjesse: I think we are early enough that we will wait until I get commit access
<jjesse> LaserJock: that's cool, i can commit if you need it
<LaserJock> as theCore said, it's pretty beta right now ;-)
<LaserJock> jjesse: thanks for the offer
<theCore> LaserJock, editing a DocBook is really a nightmare ... every single tag must be correctly used or the whole thing don't work
<mdke> :)
<mdke> perfectionism :)
<theCore> mdke, maybe ...
<LaserJock> theCore: if you want you can just work on the actual content and let me worry about the Docbook until you get comfortable with it
<Burgwork> mdke, shall I approve LaserJock into the LP doc team?
<mdke> Burgwork, sure thing
<theCore> LaserJock, i'm quite ok with the DocBook format, the thing is if I want to anything to the formating I need to make sure every tags I remove or add are correctly closed
<Burgwork> mdke, LaserJock approved
<mdke> :)
<mdke> cool thanks Burgwork 
<Burgwork> np
<LaserJock> Burgwork: thanks a lot
<Burgwork> LaserJock, welcome aboard!
<LaserJock> thank you guys for letting me work on this. It is lots of fun.
* Burgwork wonders if he will be saying that in a few months
<LaserJock> I know, I know. It is nice to be able to work on the things that you find frustrating though
<LaserJock> I would much rather help than sit around complaining
* Burgwork grumbles is world filled with Fedora Core
<Burgwork> finding rpms is total mess of FC
<mdke> :)
<Burgwork> for instance, I cannot find a good source for updated gcompris rpms
#ubuntu-doc 2005-12-13
<LaserJock> what does the 3 years support for dapper mean for the doc team?
<mdke> not a lot, except that we should try and get really good docs
<mdke> it is really most relevant to security.u.c
<LaserJock> what happens if the content of the docs change in 3 years. Is there a mechanism for updating them?
<mdke> what do you mean by the content changing?
<mdke> string freeze applies to docs as well as to packages
<LaserJock> well, in particular I am thinking things will change of the course of 3 years so I wonder if the docs will become incorrect with time
<mdke> but the distro won't change
<mdke> it will be frozen too
<LaserJock> but what if link URLs change?
<LaserJock> are all of the docs internal?
<mdke> LaserJock, ah, then that is a good case for updates
<LaserJock> k
<LaserJock> I am trying to gauge what kind of info I can put in the Packaging Guide
<mdke> LaserJock, we have an entitites file with urls
<mdke> you can use them and add to them
<LaserJock> mdke: yeah I have seen those. thanks
<LaserJock> hi jsgotangco 
<jsgotangco> hey
<Madpilot> hi all
<LaserJock> hi Madpilot 
<LaserJock> hi theCore 
<theCore> LaserJock, hello
<LaserJock> theCore: just got your email
<theCore> LaserJock, did you render the guide ?
<LaserJock> theCore: not yet
<theCore> LaserJock, did you work on the guide ?
<LaserJock> theCore: no, I did work on a merging guide a bit. It's at wiki.ubuntu.com/Merging
<LaserJock> theCore: I think that it will be good for our project
<theCore> LaserJock, i think that, too
<LaserJock> theCore: what language is the Introduction in?
<theCore> LaserJock, latin
<theCore> LaserJock, it's the famous "lorem ipsum" placeholder
<LaserJock> theCore: I don't think I have ever heard of that
<Madpilot> http://www.lipsum.com/
<Madpilot> ^^ complete with automated lipsum generator
<theCore> Madpilot, i used it to make the intro text
<theCore> it's quite cool
<Madpilot> it's great - there's even an Opera sidebar that uses that site to generate lipsum :)
<theCore> nice
<LaserJock> that's quite interesting
<theCore> LaserJock, I looked at the Ubuntu CC log of your nomination, it's pretty cool how they nominate members
<LaserJock> yeah, I was kinda nervous but it was fine. I think the big thing they look for is time and that other people will speak for you
<theCore> http://people.ubuntu.com/~fabbione/irclogs/ubuntu-meeting-2005-12-06.html <<<< you may to want to keep that in your personal file
<LaserJock> theCore: good idea
<theCore> LaserJock, for the guide, i think we should split it in many small wiki, then glue them together
<theCore> LaserJock, with this way, the developping will be easier
<LaserJock> theCore: I don't know. Once we get it into the svn repo it will be easier. Maybe we should have a scratch wiki page at least.
<theCore> LaserJock, okay, good idea
<LaserJock> theCore: you awake?
<theCore> LaserJock, yes
<theCore> LaserJock, why ?
<LaserJock> you did a lot of work on "where can I find packages"
<LaserJock> put do you think we really need that much?
<LaserJock> s/put/but/
<theCore> LaserJock, lol, not that much, i just formated this page http://www.ubuntulinux.org/ubuntu/components/view
<theCore> no
<theCore> it really need some stripping
<LaserJock> ok, that's fine
<theCore> i would, however, to add links to place to where actually find orphaned or to be done packages
<LaserJock> theCore: ok, I gotta get to bed. tomorrow I will work on what you gave me and hopefully get it in the repo
<theCore> nice, cya
<LaserJock> theCore: sure
<bshumate> bhuvan : ping?
<jjesse> morning :)
<jsgotangco> hello
<jjesse> how are you jsgotangco 
<jsgotangco> pretty good i've started reviewing docs again in svn
<jsgotangco> i'm prepping up myself for some good work in a few days
<jjesse> cool, i need to get back into it
<jjesse> been really busy
<jsgotangco> same here travelling was good and bad
<mdke> hello
<jjesse> hello mdke 
<mdke> who knows a good guide for setting up an smtp auth server?
<mdke> hi jjesse 
<jjesse> ummm not me
<jsgotangco> good night
<Burgwork> mdke, we are likely going to take the lead for start.ubuntu.com if it is going to happen
<Burgwork> mdke, it is a fairly simple website
<jjesse> start.ubuntu.com is the new default webpage right?
<Burgwork> jjesse, it doesn't exist yet
<Burgwork> jjesse, that is the plan
<jjesse> Burgwork: i didn't realize they were still going to do it
<Burgwork> jjesse, s/they/us - if it is realistically going to happen
<theCore> what is start.ubuntu.com ?
<jjesse> Burgwork: i thought there was a group of people in this team that was against it
<jjesse> theCore: wiki.ubuntu.com/BrowserDefaults
<theCore> jjesse, thanks
<jjesse> Burgwork: i guess i still don't see the benifit behind it... i love how konq's default start page is
<jjesse> gives lots of help
<Burgwork> jjesse, the plan was never to change the kubuntu default start page
<Burgwork> jjesse, on FF on Ubuntu
<jjesse> Burgwork: i realize that it is just a ubuntu thing
<jjesse> Burgwork: on any of the windows boxes that i have i changed the default page to blank in IE or about in FF
<jjesse> i hate msn.com as the start page for ie
<jjesse> and besides not everyone has a broadband connection so they can't always get to start.ubuntu.com
<theCore> LaserJock, ping
<Burgwork> jjesse, but the reality is that by the time the people open the webbrowser, they are likely already online
<Burgwork> jjesse, and if they open a local file, they are more likely to simply have it opened through nautlius
<jjesse> Burgwork: i disagree, i open my browser all the time, i use dial up and connect to a local webpage 9 times out 10 when i'm at home
<Burgwork> jjesse, after you open your webbrowser, are you already online?
<jjesse> Burgwork: nope
<jjesse> Burgwork: i run two or three different web based programs on different boxes on my local lan, but still use dial up for internet access
<Burgwork> then why do you open your webbrowser?
<Burgwork> what are you planning to do with it while not being online?
<jjesse> Burgwork: access programs (cookbook, wine list, phpmyadmin) all on local machines
<Burgwork> that is not a common usecase
<jjesse> mdke: are you around for the discussion?
<jjesse> Burgwork: if i recall correctly he felt the same way about it
<mdke> hello
<mdke> let me read scrollback
<jjesse> its about start.ubuntu.com
<mdke> yes
<mdke> Burgwork, "we are likely going to take the lead"
<mdke> how do you know?
<mdke> i haven't seen it discussed
<mdke> since I started using epiphany, I'm really against an online browser default, because every new tab opens the homepage, it would be so slow to work with
<mpt> jjesse, why don't you have Web links to those local Web-based programs in your Places menu or wherever?
<mpt> instead of launching a browser and then clicking a bookmark?
<jjesse> mpt: don't know, i just launch the browser and type the address, never really thought about it
<jjesse> to be perfectly honest
<mpt> it would (a) be faster, and (b) avoid it trying to go online
<mpt> or enter the URLs into deskbar
<mdke> mpt, you use epiphany right?
<mdke> don't you think it would slow the browsing experience right down to have an online homepage with a 56k or even 128k connection?
<jjesse> mdke: thats what i hate about IE trying to open up msn.com or whatever each time you go to a new page
<jjesse> i use windows still at home
<jjesse> or the wife does :)
<mdke> yeah well msn.com is an extreme example because it's hideously slow :)
<LaserJock> theCore: pong
<theCore> LaserJock, hi
<mdke> i think we should implement an offline frontpage for the start.ubuntu.com idea and fill it with links to the website
<theCore> LaserJock, i'm having some great conversation with the motu, now
<theCore> LaserJock, i'm curently overflow with links to good info for the PackagingGuide
<LaserJock> theCore: I'm trying to read the log in -motu, just a sec
<jjesse> mdke: i would prefer something like that
<jjesse> mdke: once again i point to how konqi works and wonder if the same setup could be done?
<mdke> jjesse, screenshot pls
<mdke> if you can
<Burgwork> mdke, because nobody else is going to
<mpt> mdke, yes, I don't think it would slow the browsing experience right down
<jjesse> mdke: argh having issues w/ screen print :(
<mpt> mainly because I could launch the browser and connect in 1 click instead of 2
<mdke> mpt, connect to what?
<mpt> the Internet
<mdke> mpt, talk me through 1 click instead of 2
<mpt> You launch the browser, which tries to access start.ubuntu.com, which is online, which makes Ubuntu dial up
<mdke> ah i see
<jjesse> mdke: where can i place the screenshots?
<mpt> is that true, or does Ubuntu still not dial up automatically?
<mdke> mpt, tbh I have never seen ubuntu with a working modem connection :)
<jjesse> mdke: its a pain in the ass
<mpt> mdke, touch
<mpt> jjesse, the main objection I'd have to the Konqueror approach is that Firefox and Epiphany are Web browsers.
<mdke> mpt, anyhow. The slowing down of the browsing experience in my mind would come when the user opens new tabs, not when they first start the browser
<mdke> i don't see a problem with "start the browser, get the nice page with lots of links, click, dial up
<mdke> if dial up worked
<mpt> If that's a problem for you, it's a problem for everyone who uses Firefox on Windows, mdke, and the solution is the same as there: use a blank page as your home page
<mdke> mpt, well, firefox can be configured on windows i believe. And, I want a homepage
<mdke> if start.ubuntu.com can be identical to what you planned, but stored locally, I would be able to have one
<Burgwork> mdke, the problem with storing it locally is content
<jjesse> who asked for screenshots of konq?
<mdke> me
<jjesse> Burgwork: isn't the fridge supposed to be that?
<mdke> Burgwork, in what way?
<jjesse> mdke: where can i put them
<mdke> changing the content?
<mdke> jjesse, mail me them?
<jjesse> address
<mdke> mdke@ubuntu.com
<Burgwork> mdke, any changes to content must be done via updates to the distro, rather than out of band, which a webpage would allow
<mdke> Burgwork, true. It depends on how change resistent the content would be
<mdke> i would have it pretty change resistent
<mdke> and have the changeable stuff spread on the website
<mdke> as I understood it, a relatively short page was the idea of the spec
<mpt> mdke, a big benefit of start.ubuntu.com is that if (for example) we sell the home page to Google in the 7.10 timeframe, it will magically work for everyone running 6.04 and 6.10 and 7.04 who hasn't changed their home page yet, not just for those using 7.10
<mdke> wha?
<mdke> lemme read that slowly
<mdke> sell the home page?
<jjesse> mdke: on the way
<Burgwork> mdke, sell the right to have google search bar, ala FF does right now
<mpt> In other words, we can redirect start.ubuntu.com to wherever we want after it's installed, which we couldn't do with a local home page.
<mdke> i see
<mdke> you have to pay for a google search bar?
<Burgwork> mdke, no, google pays you
<mpt> Burgwork, we were talking about the home page, not about the search bar
<mdke> he means a bar in the page i guess
<Burgwork> yes, I do
<mpt> No, I mean the home page itself
<mpt> just like in vanilla Firefox
<mpt> ok
<Burgwork> we can include the google search bar in our page and still get paid from google I would imagine
<mdke> how important is this?
<mdke> why don't we just include it, and not get paid
<mdke> then if canonical negotiates a payment, we leave it there
<Burgwork> mdke, because then if we ask for money later, we are screwed
<mdke> not like anything needs to be added or taken away
<Burgwork> we talked about this at UBZ
<mdke> ok
<mdke> well if it was me (it's not), I really wouldn't consider that a big issue
<mpt> Canonical needs revenue sources eventually :-)
<mdke> mpt, sure, but selling bits of the distro seems a bit weird. Anyhow, surely that wouldn't be major bucks
<mpt> mdke, Microsoft, Apple, and I'm sure other Linux distributors do it too
<mdke> sure
<mdke> when can I expect adverts in my gnome panel?
<mdke> ;)
<mdke> at any rate, the powers that be will decide how important the google search bar thing is
<mdke> if it's important, you're right, it has to be online
<mpt> nah, we'll sell ads in Gaim so that AIM emigrants feel more at home ;-)
<mdke> mpt, btw did you ever reply to that mail from sabdfl about AboutUbuntu? the thread was "Gnubuntu"
<Burgwork> mdke, they are already coming in evince
<mdke> ouch
<mdke> i would check that out
<Burgwork> mdke, I even have a blog post and would you like to buy some land in Florida?
<mdke> but EVINCE IS NOT IN MY MENUS!
<Burgwork> nope
<mdke> bloody crazy menu fascists
<mdke> i can't believe so much stuff is not in the menus and yet Run Application has not been put back
<mdke> anyway, where are these ads?
<Burgwork> there is no use case for opening a viewer without the associated doc
<Burgwork> mdke, it was a joke by the evince dev
<mdke> sure there is
<mdke> i want to see evince to check if it has adverts
<mdke> case ^^
<Burgwork> right
<Burgwork> 0.00015
<Burgwork> %
<mdke> also, i like opening the program first, then the document
<Burgwork> your wierd
<mpt> mdke, no, I'd rather get AboutUbuntu implemented first to demonstrate why filling it with text wouldn't be a nice idea
<Burgwork> but seriously, that is a refugee habir from windows
<Burgwork> I used to do it too
<mdke> mpt, i don't think that was the question, although I don't remember it clearly ;)
<mdke> Burgwork, well lots of users will then
<mpt> mdke, I think tabs were mentioned...
* mpt would like to see those Evince ads :-)
<mdke> Burgwork, my parents will be totally incapable of using Ubuntu without being able to open the program first, then the file
<theCore> LaserJock, what the plans, now ?
<jjesse> mdke: did you get the email?
<mdke> jjesse, looking
<mpt> mdke, but that's so slow!
<Burgwork> mdke, why?
<mdke> jjesse, no
<jjesse> mdke: checking on my end
<LaserJock> theCore: well we just need to keep to the tutorial focus and less reference
<mdke> Burgwork, because they are used to it, and they can't use a file manager
<Burgwork> mdke, why can'
<Burgwork> they use a file manager?
<mdke> because they are not used to it
<theCore> LaserJock, that guide is getting quite complicated 
<LaserJock> theCore: which one?
<theCore> LaserJock, the Packaging one
<LaserJock> theCore: well, if we don't have to worry about reference material then it becomes simpler ;-)
<theCore> LaserJock, :)
<theCore> LaserJock, however, we getting more and more rules to follow everyday
<LaserJock> theCore: well, I guess that's just the way it goes. It really isn't a problem. In the end we can move material from the Packaging Guide to the Developer Reference if we need to.
<LaserJock> theCore: That is, if the licensing isn't a problem :(
<theCore> LaserJock, i hope so
<mdke> lol
<LaserJock> mdke: how would that work. The Packaing Guide would be the doc-team dual licence but the Developer Reference would probably be GPL
<mdke> another good reason to release the packaging guide as gpl
<LaserJock> mdke: your right
<mdke> jjesse, got it now
<mdke> nice
<jjesse> yeah i like :)
<jjesse> afk meeting :)
<mdke> afk meeting with food
<jjesse> lucky you got food w your meeting i just got coffee :(
<mdke> i just had a meeting with me and food, no one else present :)
<jjesse> ah i had an actual meeting
<jjesse> so you like how konqi looks ?
<mdke> looks good
<mdke> i don't like the file manager thing
<mdke> but a nice colourful simple front page is a good idea
<Burgwork> ironically,  the kde devs are  thinking of spliting konq for kde4
<jjesse> grin
<jjesse> so did we decide anything on start.ubuntu.com or just lots of discussion?
<LaserJock> theCore: hi
<teroedni> hello
<theCore> LaserJock, hi
<LaserJock> theCore: I just had a good session in #ubuntu-motu-school showing somebody how to package using hello as an example
<teroedni> so i think i will hang out more here
<teroedni> is this the official doc site
<theCore> LaserJock, sorry, if i quit often without notice, i have some problem with my internet connection
<teroedni> anyway jsut so you know
<theCore> LaserJock, the hello package is really a good example package
<teroedni> i am a part of the gwos, but i also plan to be a part of moin wiki(i have contributed):)
<teroedni> hope that is okay
<teroedni> so are you guys discussing changeds in the wiki here or?
<theCore> LaserJock, your hello walkthrough is interesting
<theCore> LaserJock, i think i will get it a try 
<theCore> s/get/give/
<LaserJock> teroedni: right now we are talking about a Ubuntu Packaging Guide
<teroedni> Laserjock:Thats osunds okey
<teroedni> yust wanna introduce me
<teroedni> since i perhaps plan to stay here
<teroedni> :)
<theCore> teroedni, you have a wierd english, you know ? ;)
<teroedni> Well thats because i come from Norway
<teroedni> im not the best
<teroedni> in English
<theCore> teroedni, me too (i'm a french-canadian) 
<teroedni> :)
<teroedni> good im not alone :)
<theCore> teroedni, we currently building a guide for the new package maintainers
<teroedni> sounds good:)
<theCore> teroedni, it is
<theCore> teroedni, right now, we are just plannig
<theCore> s/plannig/planning/
<theCore> teroedni, you can check our outline if you want: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuPackagingGuide/Outline
<Burgwork> mdke, ping
<teroedni> the core, thanks is look good:)
<jjesse> theCore: was reviewing the packaging guide and is looks good so far
<jjesse> outline wise
<theCore> jjesse, thanks for the compliment, LaserJock has worked hard on this too
<jjesse> LaserJock: good then as well, didn't mean to exclude you :P
<LaserJock> jjesse: np
<LaserJock> it is a team/community effort
<jjesse> teroedni: are you interested in helping out with docs or just the wiki?
<teroedni> docs
<teroedni> if i can be of use:)
<jjesse> you can be of use
<theCore> teroedni, what would you like to do ?
<jjesse> did you go to wiki.ubuntu.com/DocteamProjects  ?
<jjesse> you can also see what docs we are currently working on at doc.ubuntu.com
<teroedni> well for the moment i wait and see what cc says
<jjesse> LaserJock or theCore is this (http://doc.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/packagingguide/C/index.html) the correct pacage guide?
<LaserJock> jjesse: that is a Packaging Guide that was done by somebody else
<LaserJock> jjesse: theCore and I decided that we should rework it
<jjesse> LaserJock: oh yeah iremember some discussion on the mailing list 
<LaserJock> jjesse: basically that guide was parts of the Debian New Maintainers Guide + some wiki
<LaserJock> jjesse: I think we can do better
<LaserJock> not that those were bad. but sometimes starting from scratch is easier than revising an existing doc
<theCore> LaserJock, did you knew this page existed ? https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UniverseCandidates
<LaserJock> theCore: for sure
<theCore> LaserJock, that a must for the new maintainer
<LaserJock> theCore: I am also the MOTU wiki organizer guy ;-)
<theCore> s/that/that's/
<LaserJock> theCore: see MOTU/DocTodo
<LaserJock> theCore: yes it is, but people need to know what to do with it
<LaserJock> theCore: ok, I gotta go for a bit, will bbl
<theCore> LaserJock, see ya later
<theCore> teroedni, so are you still interested by building docs?
<mdke> Burgwork, pong
<teroedni> thecore
<teroedni> yea i think so
<teroedni> but i will wait a little
<teroedni> i have bookmarked the site
<mdke> kubuntu docs need some loving, if you are a kubuntu man teroedni 
<teroedni> nope gnome
<teroedni> im more of a hw man;)
<mdke> ah
<mdke> well, it all needs loving
<teroedni> but for now i watch
<teroedni> and observer
<teroedni> after the community agenda meeting
<teroedni> i be clearer on what i want to work on
<mdke> cool
<teroedni> :)
<mdke> what meeting?
<teroedni> well gotta go. I have the site bookmarked<---see ya :)
<teroedni> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuForumDiscussion<---this one mdke
<mdke> teroedni, that has nothing to do with us :)
<teroedni> ahh:)
<mdke> teroedni, but it's an interesting one
<teroedni> well i be back later thanks;) have a nice day:)
<mdke> you too
<theCore> mdke, why they banned robotgeek from the IRC channel ?
<mdke> dunno
<mdke> which channel?
<theCore> dunno
<theCore> #
<theCore> IRC Channel:
<theCore>     *
<theCore>       Additionally members who side with Amaranth, robotgeek, and the GPL are now being banned (I've been banned [Seth] )
<theCore>     *
<theCore>       Kyral has been banned from #ubuntuforums for the same reason
<theCore>     *
<theCore>       Before banning Kyral, the forum staff member [WWW]  FLeiXiuS said: [17:45]  <FLeiXiuS> Were not under the CoC, nor do we give a shit about the CC in here..
<theCore> it's a wierd entry
<mdke> ah dude
<mdke> that stuff is all about both sides going over the top
<mdke> people who are arguing go over the top to make differences between each other
<mdke> best thing is to ignore it
<theCore> it what I though
<mdke> some seriously good progress is being made on this thread: http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=100069&page=18
<mdke> lots of constructive discussion, people listening to each other etc
<LaserJock> yeah, the last CC meeting was interesting
<theCore> mdke, is there really competition between the doc repo and the wiki?
<mdke> i think competition would be a bad way to describe the relationship
<mdke> some forum members want a place to store howtos
<mdke> they decided not to use the ubuntu wiki, but another one, mainly because of software-based reasons
<mdke> some social reasons
<mdke> now those social reasons have been resolved
<mdke> thank god
<LaserJock> they have?
<mdke> yeah it was mainly based on a misunderstanding
<mdke> i have spent many hours on this :)
<mdke> anyhow, that wiki is going to remain in place for the time being
<LaserJock> I was just thinking of the last CC meeting
<mdke> LaserJock, i wasn't there
<LaserJock> yeah, it is too bad people just can't get along. I mean we all are here for Ubuntu
<mdke> LaserJock, they will get along
<mdke> FOSS is difficult, everyone has different ideas
<mdke> it needs hard work, but people can get along
<LaserJock> well, I would hate to see the forums gone
<Kingbahamut> Most of us feel that way LJ/mdke
<mdke> by the way theCore/ LaserJock, Kingbahamut is the admin of that wiki
<mdke> he'll tell ya
<Kingbahamut> tell em what?
* theCore prise the wiki god :P
<mdke>  [22:26:37]  < mdke> now those social reasons have been resolved
<LaserJock> seems silly to get so worked up over such things. But I guess I can understand. I so focused on what I am doing that I can't see other people's point of view
<Kingbahamut> My communications with you guys have been if anything better 
<Kingbahamut> however
<Kingbahamut> the ongoing issues
<Kingbahamut> outside of thta 
<Kingbahamut> arent resolved 
<mdke> sure, but those are different issues
<Kingbahamut> theres alot of that going around Laserjock
<Kingbahamut> no one is willing to see anyone else's point of view 
<mdke> Kingbahamut, i disagree
<mdke> http://ubuntuforums.org/showpost.php?p=555933&postcount=176
<Kingbahamut> my communications with Amaranth have been if anything
<mdke> that shows that some people are
<Kingbahamut> very unproductive 
<mdke> in fact that whole thread demonstrates that some people are
<Kingbahamut> I have no doubt some are 
<Kingbahamut> I am certainly willing to listen
<Kingbahamut> what becomes hard 
<Kingbahamut> is that those who want me to listen to them, dont choose to listen to what I have to say or want to for that matter
<Kingbahamut> it causes frustration on everyone's part 
<theCore> with a community big as Ubuntu, it must be though to get everyone to the right place ...
<mdke> yes
<Kingbahamut> its possible to assume that yes, Core
<LaserJock> Kingbahamut: that's what my wife tells me all the time ;-)
<mdke> heh
<Kingbahamut> lol
<Kingbahamut> LaserJock, I wouldnt be stuck down here in my dungeon of Metal
<Kingbahamut> if that statement were not true 
<mdke> as I said, I think most sides go out of their way to make things difficult, I just block it all out and listen to the people who are making sense, as on that thread
<Kingbahamut> I think the banning of Azz
<Kingbahamut> more than likely did damage and healing at the same time
<Kingbahamut> whether I aggree with it or not 
<mdke> sure
<mdke> there is too much personal stuff involved in these battles
<Kingbahamut> and honestly the issue with respect to Arnieboy and Automatix itself
<mdke> people build up mistrust as I said yesterday ;)
<Kingbahamut> is just a sympton of the earlier problem 
<Kingbahamut> between Azz and the rest of us 
<Kingbahamut> sure they do
<Kingbahamut> thats being human , matthew
<mdke> well, I believe that that post by ubuntugeek will go a long way towards sorting things out
<Kingbahamut> I tried to explain that to Amaranth 
<Kingbahamut> and the reply I got was rather
<Kingbahamut> well
<mdke> and the thread it is on has been very productive for both sides
<Kingbahamut> not happy 
<theCore> why there isn't a unofficial forum ?
<Kingbahamut> no
<Kingbahamut> why Humanism and Community must be factored in 
<mdke> theCore, there probably are, loads of them
<Kingbahamut> to the equation 
<Kingbahamut> the reply I recieved from Amaranth was 
<Kingbahamut>  Dec 08 13:47:22 Amaranth        I don't think you should speak much at the CC meeting, we don't want to be there 4 hours listening about humanity.
<mdke> please don't get into personal discussions
<Kingbahamut> my apologies
<Kingbahamut> still immensely frustrated, shall keep it out 
<mdke> we like to try and retain our neutrality :)
<Kingbahamut> as do i 
<Kingbahamut> as do I 
<Kingbahamut> regardless 
<Kingbahamut> yes
<LaserJock> well I was impressed with the way the CC handled the last meeting. I think they are trying to be objective about this
* theCore is astonished to see the load of social issues behind ubuntu
<Kingbahamut> Objectivity is key 
<mdke> theCore, behind any FOSS project
<Kingbahamut> bias is always a problem 
<mdke> LaserJock, yeah the CC members are all top
<mdke> Kingbahamut, you shouldn't be frustrated, read the thread 100069: i'm totally convinced that progress is being made
<mdke> leave individuals aside
<LaserJock> mdke: it is indeed 
<Kingbahamut> I have faith in progress matthew 
<Kingbahamut> if I didnt I wouldnt be in here
<Kingbahamut> or any other channel 
<mdke> :)
<Kingbahamut> nor would I still be fending off attackers 
<mdke> Burgwork, pong TIMES TWO!
<Kingbahamut> if I didnt believe in the concept of mutual progression 
<mdke> ignoring attackers is also useful ;)
<Kingbahamut> cant
<mdke> sometimes...
<Kingbahamut> did that for a day
<Kingbahamut> took my webserver down
<Kingbahamut> for 24 hours
<theCore> ouch
<mdke> oh, i didn't mean that sort of attackers
<theCore> i remember that day
<Kingbahamut> I recieve in excess
<Kingbahamut> of 
<Kingbahamut> 2000 emails
<Kingbahamut> from people asking me what was going wrong with the Doc
<Kingbahamut> users, mods, admins all alike
<mdke> that's a lot of mail
<Kingbahamut> yes
<Kingbahamut> Each time I take her down for the q4 games
<mdke> brb (washing up)
<Kingbahamut> I usually get spamed with about a hundred emails 
<theCore> Kingbahamut, what is the problems with the forum exactly ?
<Kingbahamut> really
<Kingbahamut> you want the real answer?
<theCore> yes
<Kingbahamut> Control 
<Kingbahamut> who has it 
<Kingbahamut> and who doesnt 
<theCore> i see
<LaserJock> hhmmm, I have never thought of there really being any control on forums
<Kingbahamut> well ulitmately LJ
<Kingbahamut> I think there should be
<LaserJock> makes sense
<Kingbahamut> I mean, illegal activity, nudity, vulgarity, personal attacks and defamation
<LaserJock> right
<Kingbahamut> those are the things im accused of moderating
<Kingbahamut> by Azz's statements
<Kingbahamut> all of those but Illegal activity
<Kingbahamut> should never be moderated or deleted 
<Kingbahamut> while I concede the point of Jailing such posts
<theCore> Ubuntu should be free of this craps
<Kingbahamut> in the issues of Nudity, Vulgarity and Illegal Activity 
<Kingbahamut> I cannot abide them, and remove them without question 
<LaserJock> theCore: it only would be if it was free of people ;-)
<Kingbahamut> as a moderator
<Kingbahamut> but
<LaserJock> but the personal attacks and defamation
<Kingbahamut> I have been reprimanded more times than I can count 
<Kingbahamut> for those types of moderation 
<Kingbahamut> and thats the root of the issue
<Kingbahamut> what should be moderated
<Kingbahamut> and what shouldnt
<LaserJock> hmm, makes sense that that would be a problem
<Kingbahamut> true
<Kingbahamut> so 
<Kingbahamut> someone must decided
<Kingbahamut> er
<Kingbahamut> decide
<LaserJock> right, and who gets to decide?
<Kingbahamut> true
<Kingbahamut> should the community decide? the CC? Should the CC take the community into account? does it? 
<Kingbahamut> those are the types of questions
<LaserJock> can't there be moderated and unmoderated sections
<Kingbahamut> that are asked by the admins and mods of the forum 
<Kingbahamut> yes
<Kingbahamut> there can be 
<Kingbahamut> however
<Kingbahamut> again, Azz believes that Moderation should NEVER occur
<Kingbahamut> in any capacity 
<Kingbahamut> Jailed yes, Moderated no 
<LaserJock> hmm, I don't know. I think every form of communication has some form of moderation
<Kingbahamut> thus being the nature of communication
<Kingbahamut> I think most everyone is just too emotional over it all 
<Kingbahamut> to think clear enough 
<LaserJock> right
<mdke> yeah
<Kingbahamut> even myself to an extent 
<Kingbahamut> however I have much more removed myself
<Kingbahamut> from the furor that was my conversation with Kyral 
<Kingbahamut> which spawned my problems with Amaranth 
<LaserJock> I know my friend Kyral has gotten hot a lot
<mdke> the problem is this: people on both sides have become so personally involved, that it is difficult to see them ending. but the bigger picture that I see, is that there have been issues, they are being addressed, and things will improve
<mdke> the individial bickering probably won't end
<mdke> but it doesn't matter
<Kingbahamut> LaserJock, Kyral and I had it out for a long session 
<mdke> because the broader issues are being resolved
<Kingbahamut> it took me a long bit to prove to Amaranth that Im really not an a-hole
<theCore> why there isn't a side council in which the members would be elected by the community?
<LaserJock> Kingbahamut: I can imagine, he's a great guy but gets worked up really fast
<Kingbahamut> theCore, I have suggested this
<Kingbahamut> more than once
<mdke> a side council?
<Kingbahamut> and on a variety of levels
<Kingbahamut> if the users, Members and NonMembers alike
<Kingbahamut> had a voice
<Kingbahamut> I doubt seriously
<Kingbahamut> the issues that we have would be as severe in nature 
<mdke> ah you mean on the forum?
<Kingbahamut> The user needs a voice 
<mdke> good idea
<Kingbahamut> my contention is , do the CC members speak with the user 
<Kingbahamut> on a daily basis
<mdke> oh
<Kingbahamut> do they have intimate knowledge of the user 
<mdke> i thought you meant the forum
<mdke> every user is free to attend the CC meetings
<Kingbahamut> of course they are 
<LaserJock> Kingbahamut: I'm not sure that they don't but I understand where you are coming from
<Kingbahamut> but 
<Kingbahamut> how many users understand how to get there? 
<mdke> Kingbahamut, as many as want to know
<mdke> and can read the website
<Kingbahamut> I dont think its that easy 
<Kingbahamut> but you might be correct in that assumption 
<Kingbahamut> the user doesnt understand the relationship
<Kingbahamut> at least many of the users I interact with dont 
<mdke> i don't think it has to
<LaserJock> well the CC is pretty busy with other things, it would make sense to have some sort of mediation team that could look at these things
<mdke> the CC is a body at the top of a pyramid
<mdke> the lower bits of the pyramid represent various bits of the community
<theCore> maybe if we give every users a role, it would solve some problems
<mdke> the CC makes top level decisions about the future of Ubuntu, it shouldn't exist to sort out scrapping between users
<mdke> unless it cannot be resolved at any other level
<theCore> mdke, true
<Kingbahamut> I aggree with the concept 
<Kingbahamut> of a mediation team
<mdke> well a mediation team is now being set up on the forum
<mdke> i believe that will help
<mdke> as will the other initiatives that ubuntu-geek has proposed
<mdke> the individual squabbling will have to die out gradually
<Kingbahamut> eventually 
<Kingbahamut> yes 
<LaserJock> is there some place where I can see the hierarchy of the forum leadership or something
<Kingbahamut> sure
<Kingbahamut> Forum leaders
<Kingbahamut> at the bottom 
<Kingbahamut> a quick question for you guys though 
<LaserJock> I can't find it
<LaserJock> ooops
<Kingbahamut> Do any of you think I am the "leader" of this "gang"?
<LaserJock> I found it
<mdke> Kingbahamut, which gang?
<Kingbahamut> the forums gang?
<LaserJock> I really haven't heard anything about you honestly
<theCore> me too
<Kingbahamut> hmmm
<Kingbahamut> a number of communications Ive had 
<Kingbahamut> not with any of you mind you 
<Kingbahamut> have stated that Im the gang leader 
<Kingbahamut> and that I make the decisions to things regarding the forum 
<LaserJock> I hear mostly about kassetra and arnie 
<mdke> no, i communicate with ubuntugeek quite a lot, so I know he is the forum admin
<Kingbahamut> ok 
<Kingbahamut> im just asking 
#ubuntu-doc 2005-12-14
<Kingbahamut> because when I was called that 
<Kingbahamut> I became horridly confused 
<theCore> what is Automatix ? it look like the main problem
<mdke> theCore, nononono
<Kingbahamut> no
<mdke> that business is a symptom
<Kingbahamut> it isnt 
<Kingbahamut> Automatix and its issues
<Kingbahamut> are a sympton of a much older problem 
<theCore> which one ?
<Kingbahamut> the one that started the whole 
<Kingbahamut> Jdodson, Azz, Panickedthumb, Datawolf mess
<Kingbahamut> months back 
<Kingbahamut> that is the origination of the problem 
<mdke> really, the problem is a more general one IMHO
<Kingbahamut> again 
<Kingbahamut> its a matter of who controls what, and who doesnt 
<theCore> again ..
<Kingbahamut> Automatix and its developer 
<mdke> and HOW they control it
<Kingbahamut> chose to make statements 
<Kingbahamut> those statements were reacted to 
<Kingbahamut> posts were deleted 
<LaserJock> so it's basically a disagreement between people who don't want any moderation and those that want some
<Kingbahamut> and threads were cencsored 
<Kingbahamut> correct LJ
<Kingbahamut> on one side you have UG and the other staff that feel that moderation is nessecary, while some mods and admins have moderated unessecarily 
<Kingbahamut> on the other side you have azz and everyone behind him that state no moderation should ever occur 
<Kingbahamut> in any capacity
<Kingbahamut> there has to be a happy medium 
<LaserJock> do you need more experience moderators perhaps?
<Kingbahamut> I dont nessecarily condone the actions of my fellow staff 
<Kingbahamut> in many instances 
<Kingbahamut> Ive been one for 8 years 
<Kingbahamut> thats why I rare edit something unless its blatantly spam , ugly and sick or illegal 
<mdke> for me, the important thing is to leave a message when something is edited, and explain why
<mdke> that way, no question of secrecy can arise, even by accident
<Kingbahamut> I wont argue mdke , and in a staff discussion DEMANDED IT 
<mdke> people will not always be happy, but that's life
<LaserJock> but you said that some mods and admins moderated unessecarily, is that because they were just inexperienced or because they had a personal problem with the posts?
<Kingbahamut> of certain mods that would just mod and not state a reason 
<Kingbahamut> I suspect personal problems LJ
<mdke> Kingbahamut, yeah it's important to give a reason
<theCore> how big is the Azz gang ?
<Kingbahamut> or some other involvement 
<Kingbahamut> how big?
<Kingbahamut> without being utterly accusatory 
<Kingbahamut> or 
<mdke> gang is such an ugly word :)
<Kingbahamut> conclusive 
<Kingbahamut> I would say the group that azz and others associate 
<Kingbahamut> is sizeably large 
<theCore> can you give me a number ?
<Kingbahamut> I will say however its been nice to be called the better level headed of the bunch of the staff 
<Kingbahamut> but thats for another disucssion 
<Kingbahamut> theCore: best guess.....50?
<Kingbahamut> thats a shot in the dark though 
<theCore> it's not that much ...
<LaserJock> well, its been good to talk to you Kingbahamut about this. I think I have been getting a lot of info from the other side of the arguement
<LaserJock> I like to stay balanced
<Kingbahamut> I only have one request
<Kingbahamut> you make it that way, your good with me 
<Kingbahamut> Direct Question = DIrect answer 
<LaserJock> right
<mdke> hehe
<Kingbahamut> The only bad question, the only bad request, is the one you dont ask me 
<Kingbahamut> I may not bend over backwards for yer 
<Kingbahamut> but Ill try mah best 
<LaserJock> cool
<mdke> rob1, i hate your email client/server soooooo much!
<mdke> i'm gonna kill it!
<LaserJock> I honestly don't do much on the forums anymore because of the lack of moderation, but maybe I will give it a shot again
<mdke> bah
* mdke is struggling with postfix
<LaserJock> mdke: need a bigger hammer?
<mdke> yeah
<LaserJock> that's what my dad always said
<mdke> why the hell doesn't it know what I want it to do automatically??
<mdke> stupid POS
<mdke> Burgwork, pong times 3, 3 strikes and you're out
<theCore> i though of a way ubuntu could work: http://paste.ubuntulinux.nl/5529
* mdke 's mind boggles
<LaserJock> theCore: what do the arrow's represent?
<theCore> LaserJock, they mean "X elect Y"
<theCore> (sorry again, for that sudden deconnection"
<LaserJock> theCore: so what would the moderators moderate? Everyting Ubuntu?
<theCore> LaserJock, the communities
<LaserJock> makes sense
<theCore> LaserJock, they would ensure a quality control on the wiki, doc, and forums
<theCore> LaserJock, what do you think?
<LaserJock> cool, I don't know if that will ever happen, but it would be good
<theCore> LaserJock, i'm please to heard that :)
<theCore> LaserJock, so, do you want to continue working on the guide ?
<LaserJock> yeah, I just have other things to do too
<Burgwork> mdke, sorry I was out
<mpt> I think Ubuntu should be run by a giant turtle
<Burgwork> mpt, wtf!!!
<theCore> nice, my project on sourceforge has been approved :D
<LaserJock> theCore: what project ist that?
<theCore> the Linux Gluing Project
<theCore> tlgp.sf.net << there is nothing here for now
<theCore> but i will fill this space with docs
<LaserJock> so how is it going to be distributed?
<theCore> in a tarball
<theCore> to put in a personal server
<theCore> but for now the whole site is too big 
<theCore> right now the whole thing is 190MB
<LaserJock> 190MB?
<theCore> yep
<theCore> it a full collection of doc, howto, dicto, guides
<Kingbahamut> thats pretty sizeable
<Kingbahamut> for just text documents
<theCore> just the HOWTO dir is 90MB
* Kingbahamut glares.
<Kingbahamut> referenced to what? 
<theCore> linux
<Kingbahamut> core linux
<Kingbahamut> or distro depedent?
<theCore> core linux, with a little tendence to ubuntu
<Kingbahamut> Such a thing would save me some time , I still write documentation with that Slackware slant in my head 
<Kingbahamut> probably why I prefer CLI so much 
<theCore> CLI? 
<Kingbahamut> Command Line Interface 
<LaserJock> Kingbahamut: yeah, I came from Gentoo so I want to compile everything
<Kingbahamut> my first linux experience was 
<theCore> a ok
<Kingbahamut> a Floppy Slackware isntall , pre 95
<theCore> lol, my second
<theCore> wow
<Kingbahamut> I still have that box too 
<theCore> i love old distro
<Kingbahamut> amidst my junk 
<LaserJock> somehow I never got into Slack. I don't think I even installed it once
<Kingbahamut> every year or so 
<Kingbahamut> I do a floppy slack install
<Kingbahamut> just to refersh my memory 
<Kingbahamut> but my primary computer experience, the initial one at least 
<Kingbahamut> was in 1986 on a SunOS machine
<Kingbahamut> back then Sun was based loosely on BSD code, rather than the System V that Solaris took 
<theCore> i wasn't even born at this time :P
<Kingbahamut> Though even then, to now
<Kingbahamut> Solaris has changed alot
<Kingbahamut> LaserJock: Gentoo Geek? 
<LaserJock> Kingbahamut: yeah, for over 2 years I think
<Kingbahamut> I tried
<Kingbahamut> sadly
<Kingbahamut> I could never quite get the hang of it 
<Kingbahamut> dont laugh
<LaserJock> I looked for a binary equivilent and ended up at Ubuntu
<Kingbahamut> I even tried
<Kingbahamut> *shudders*
<Kingbahamut> VidaLinux
<LaserJock> Kingbahamut: it is different
<Kingbahamut> one of my 20 test boxes is still a VidaLinux machine
<theCore> there is one distro that is still on my heart , Linux From Scratch
<Kingbahamut> LFS isnt is just a book?
<theCore> yea
<Kingbahamut> ive run (even if for only a few days) probably anywhere from 30 to 40
<Kingbahamut> of the Top 100 on Distrowatch 
<Kingbahamut> just to see 
<Kingbahamut> of those, Id have to say OneBase was the worst 
<Kingbahamut> with ArkLinux being a close 2nd
<LaserJock> Kingbahamut: what do like best? Ubuntu and Slack?
<Kingbahamut> Ubuntu by far
<theCore> yay
<Kingbahamut> I wouldnt spend so much time on the forums
<Kingbahamut> and the Doc Facility
<HrdwrBoB> slackware is obsolete
<Kingbahamut> if I didnt like it 
<HrdwrBoB> in my considered opinion
<Kingbahamut> BoB, not obslete
<HrdwrBoB> it's a relic of a time gone by
<Kingbahamut> just unpopular 
<HrdwrBoB> it's unpopular for a reason
<Kingbahamut> You have to give Volkerdink credit though 
<HrdwrBoB> I used slackware in 1996
<HrdwrBoB> look, absolutely
<theCore> slackware is too tough to maintain
<Kingbahamut> for him keeping on 
<HrdwrBoB> but slackware's time has been and gone
<Kingbahamut> as long as he has 
<LaserJock> Kingbahamut: yeah, it is amazing for one man
<Kingbahamut> specially with his illness last year 
<Kingbahamut> was supposed to See him on Linux Lunacy 
<Kingbahamut> last year but didnt 
<Kingbahamut> that was a blast ride, if GC offers it again, Id recommend it 
<theCore> i decapitated docs :(
<theCore> my docs*
<Kingbahamut> decapitated?
<theCore> yea, striped 120MB out of my docs
<LaserJock> theCore: where do you get these docs?
<theCore> many places
<LaserJock> what about licenses?
<theCore> but most come from tldp.org
<theCore> all GPL
<theCore> that awesome 'rm -rf ' command
<LaserJock> convenient
<theCore> yes
<Kingbahamut> hmmm
<Kingbahamut> careful with that
<Kingbahamut> thats a very unweildy lightsaber with a mind of its own command 
<theCore> lol
<theCore> 'sudo rm -rf /' <-- my personal favourite
<Kingbahamut> geeze
<Kingbahamut> dont tell an enduser that 
<theCore> lol
<Kingbahamut> or if you do 
<Kingbahamut> make sure hes in irc 
<Kingbahamut> and tell him if he does do it 
<Kingbahamut> it will fix his problem 
<theCore> a total system decapitation
<Kingbahamut> and he will still remain in the channel 
<theCore> lol
<Kingbahamut> ie "Quick Everyone Im being hacked how do I stop it!?!?!?!"
<Kingbahamut> "Hurry, open up an xterm window and type sudo rm / -fr"
<theCore> really ? 
<Kingbahamut> used to tell them in the old irc days to unplug the modem cable
<Kingbahamut> and that would stop the attack 
<theCore> i gonna try that right now
<Kingbahamut> lol 
<Kingbahamut> I am of course
<Kingbahamut> kidding 
<theCore> lol
<Kingbahamut> there should be a bit 
<Kingbahamut> written into the kernel 
<Kingbahamut> that stops you from doing that 
<Kingbahamut> kind of like if you issue that command you get a 
<Kingbahamut> EVERYTHING WILL BE DETELED IF YOU DO THIS, ARE YOU SURE?
<theCore> it wouldn't be tough to implement ...
<Kingbahamut> one can dream
<Kingbahamut> cant one?
<theCore> maybe
<Kingbahamut> record you hold for installing linux on the same system in one day?
<theCore> hum, 3, i think ?
<Kingbahamut> ill be quiet then 
<theCore> why ?
<Kingbahamut> learning to recompile the kernel 
<Kingbahamut> cause KP 
<Kingbahamut> like
<Kingbahamut> 8 times
<theCore> KP ?
<Kingbahamut> Kernel Panic
<theCore> lol
<Kingbahamut> was not a pretty sight that day 
<Kingbahamut> for sure
<theCore> compling a kernel is not tough
<Kingbahamut> I guess I couldnt wrap my head around it that day
<Kingbahamut> or something, who knows 
<Kingbahamut> was a Data Recovery Specialist back then 
<Kingbahamut> my office laughed at me for weeks 
<HrdwrBoB> you REINSTALLED
<HrdwrBoB> because you broke the kernel?>
<Kingbahamut> lol
<Kingbahamut> go on 
<Kingbahamut> laugh
<Kingbahamut> its ok 
<Kingbahamut> I can take it 
<Kingbahamut> that was a long time ago too 
* theCore laugh out loud
<Kingbahamut> I only get one person laughing for that 
<Kingbahamut> sigh
<Kingbahamut> im losing my touch 
* theCore laugh out loud for 3 peoples
<Kingbahamut> To err human, to forgive divine I suppose
<HrdwrBoB> well
<HrdwrBoB> I just thought maybe after the first... SIX TIMES
<HrdwrBoB> you might have learnt something :)
<Kingbahamut> well 
<Kingbahamut> as I go back on that experience 
<Kingbahamut> I was doing like 4 recoveries 
<Kingbahamut> 2 of which were for JPL 
<Kingbahamut> and I remember just angry enough to bust a keyboard or two while I was doin it all 
<theCore> there should be a #ubuntu-politic chanel 
<LaserJock> theCore: man, I don't know
<Kingbahamut> politic channel/
<theCore> LaserJock, why not ?
<Kingbahamut> that alone scares me
<theCore> lol
<theCore> it would be fun
<Kingbahamut> no
<Kingbahamut> I just dont think so 
<LaserJock> theCore: I just can't imagine it would be anything but a giant troll
<theCore> lol
<Kingbahamut> The forums argument over the last few days
<Kingbahamut> you want an entire channel of that stuff?
<Kingbahamut> phew, that could get well
<Kingbahamut> rough 
<theCore> it would probably help to evacuate the pressure
<Kingbahamut> hmmm
<Kingbahamut> that gives a strange analogy to me
<theCore> which one?
<Kingbahamut> Lets go and put 5 megatons of Dynamite under a building , because the intense pressure of that building is so great 
<Kingbahamut> that it has to come down right 
<Kingbahamut> but when you detonate that stuff
<Kingbahamut> more than the building is going to come down 
<theCore> lol, you are probably right about this one :P
<Kingbahamut> I dunno
<Kingbahamut> just call it like I see 
<Kingbahamut> it
<theCore> it would be fun, though
<Kingbahamut> someone tell me im an idiot if its not that way 
<theCore> *silence*
<theCore> i'm up: tlgp.sf.net
<LaserJock> theCore: so you collect all the docs and put them at in one place?
<theCore> LaserJock, yep
<LaserJock> theCore: do you have to do anything?
<theCore> LaserJock, i will try to glue them together 
<Kingbahamut> hmmm
<theCore> LaserJock, but not now
<Kingbahamut> I hear crazy glue does wonders 
<Kingbahamut> just dont get it on your hands
<LaserJock> theCore: what do you mean by glue?
<theCore> LaserJock, remove redundencies, use the same style for all page, stuff like that ...
<LaserJock> ok
<theCore> what do you think?
<LaserJock> interesting, pretty ambitious
<LaserJock> I am checking out some stuff right now, I need to learn bash scripting ;-)
<Kingbahamut> that seems very portable theCore 
<theCore> portable ?
<Kingbahamut> movable from where it is
<Kingbahamut> to somewhere else 
<theCore> ah yes,
<Kingbahamut> I guess adaptable is a better way to put i t
<theCore> Kingbahamut, i'm working on a new design: http://tlgp.sourceforge.net/newdesign
<theCore> any comments on this page ? http://tlgp.sourceforge.net/best-comp/
<LaserJock> theCore: why do you want that?
<theCore> LaserJock, dunno ..
<theCore> n/m then
<LaserJock> that is what I would like to get, except less case and more hard drive
<LaserJock> theCore: I just wondered why it was at your tlgp site?
<theCore> i dunno, it was one my ideas of website, so i decide to put a small page in the misc. area
<LaserJock> interesting
<rob1> mdke, yes as do I. its lookout express (on windows NT), we aren't upgrading to windows xp until next year
<Lewix> hi
<Lewix> <Lewix> I have a laptop , toshiba M40/M45 serie and  I've downloaded the iso dvd of ubuntu. when I boot and type enter there's things that loads up then my screen goes black. as well with the dvd screen as with the install. I tried linux vga=771 with the live dvd because i want to be sure that it works before installing and I all seem to work till I got a erro message about xserver
<Madpilot> Lewix: this isn't really a help channel - please try the main #ubuntu channel
<Lewix> ive tried it for 3days
<Lewix> nobody anwser they just ignore me
<LaserJock> Lewix: it might not be that they are ignoring you, just that they don't know
<Lewix> maybe
<Lewix> I may be the only one with this problem
<Lewix> didn't find a solution on the net
<theCore> Lewix, did you tried the forums ?
<Lewix> of course
<Lewix> I find some ppl with the same problem but no solutions
<theCore> Lewix, did you tried the CD version of ubuntu
<Lewix> yep the same
<Lewix> then I 'downlaoded the dvd version
<theCore> Lewix, i think i know what is it
<Lewix> really?
<theCore> Lewix, can you boot the console, at least ?
<theCore> maybe
<Lewix> hmm ? I'm a newbie
<Lewix> they say something like you didn't set up the xserver
<Lewix> when I' put the live cd and type linux vga=771
<theCore> but can you login in the "command prompt"
<Lewix> otherwise if I just type enter it loads up files and then the screen turn black
<Lewix> command prompt? do you mean the boot screen ?
<LaserJock> Lewix: but you have tried just hitting enter? no vga=
<theCore> Lewix, let a couple of minutes so I can find a solution
<theCore> Lewix, what is your graphic card?
<Lewix> ati
<theCore> X600 ?
<Lewix> intel celeron M processor 380, 1.6ghz 512ddram 80gb
<Lewix> hmm dunno let me check
<Lewix> ati radeon express 200m serie
<Lewix> LaserJock: both
<theCore> Lewix, you will probalbly need to make a custom kernel ...
<Lewix> custom kernel, I'm really a newbie
<theCore> Lewix, i trying to found an easier path for you
<Lewix> thanks a lot
<theCore> is it the m40 or m50 model ?
<Lewix> It's written like that: satellite toshiba M40/M45 series in a manual
<Lewix> how can I know exactly the model
<Madpilot> turn the machine over and look at the labels underneath?
<Lewix> k
<theCore> it should be written somewhere under the laptop
<Lewix> thanks
<Lewix> toshiba M45- S169 system unit
<theCore> good
<theCore> what is the current operating system on it ?
<Lewix> windows
<theCore> du you have the install cd?
<theCore> do*
<Lewix> dvd
<theCore> you have it?
<Lewix> inside there is a live version
<Lewix> and the installer
<theCore> no, i'm talking about windows
<Lewix> yep normally
<theCore> i found on the web, that there is a problem with the LiveCD but not with the install cd
<theCore> so, if i where you i would make a backup of you windows files, and try to install ubuntu
<theCore> s/you/your/
<Lewix> with linux vga=771? hmm the fact is I wanted to resize my hd first with the live cd
<theCore> ewh, bad idea
<Lewix> ohh
<Lewix> why ?
<theCore> resizing partition is an arcane art
<Lewix> with qparted
<Lewix> arcane art /
<Lewix> ?
<theCore> the best thing would be to start with a fresh winXP install
<theCore> on a partition smaller than the hard drive
<theCore> then install ubuntu 
<theCore> the biggest problem you may encounter, with this scenario, is that linux don't detect your network card
<bhuvan> bshumate, ping
<theCore> Lewix, ? are you still here ?
<Lewix> yes
<theCore> so what do you think ?
<Lewix> well I'll try to install it like that but I really want to resize first
<Lewix> no choice
<theCore> you can't do a backup ?
<Lewix> not really, but ok let's say I do a backup. how can I partition the disk before installing windows considering that I just have the recovery cd of my laptop
<theCore> you just have a winXP recovery disk ?
<theCore> that doesn't give much freedom ...
<Lewix> yep
<LaserJock> Lewix: a copy of Partition Magic would go a long ways
<Lewix> hmm
<theCore> yea it's probably the only solution ..
<Lewix> where can I find it ? any idea ?
<theCore> http://www.soft32.com/download_151.html
<Lewix> hey have a look https://wiki.ubuntu.com/HardwareSupportMachinesLaptopsToshiba
<Lewix> on my laptop maybe you'll understand
<theCore> hmm, i see
<theCore> it say  "Need to install with framebuffer off; video needs ATI's proprietary driver, but using kernel module hangs the machine"
<theCore> now, i must find out how to do that 
<Lewix> lol I'm a newbie. forgot ?
<theCore> Lewix, don't worry i will get over the "geek" stuff for you
<Lewix> thanks man
<Lewix> you really help
<theCore> at least, i try
<theCore> i think there is a "laptop" in boot menu, did you tried it ?
<Lewix> nope
<Lewix> where did you read that copy the link here :>
<theCore> good night everyone
<rob1> bye
<rob1> :)
<jsgotangco> later
<jsgotangco> its friday night!
<rob1> hi jjesse 
<bshumate> Burgwork?
<Lewix> .
<jjesse> hello rob1
<mdke> Burgwork, pong
<mdke> rob1, has Madpilot's common tasks patch been applied?
<jjesse> morning mdke
<mdke> ello
<jjesse> did we decide anything about s.u.c or just a lot of discussion?
<mdke> no, nothing decided
<mdke> i don't think it's for us to decide tbh
<jjesse> oh
<jjesse> but i heard that we will be in charge of creating it or filling the content
<mdke> jjesse, Burgwork was suggesting that yes
<mdke> but as to whether it will happen, i think that is a decision for the TB more than us
<jjesse> ok
<mdke> hi highvoltage !
<mdke> rob1, forget it, my email is just arriving like 10 hours late, i see the commit now
<jjesse> is there that big of a difference between the ubuntu packaging guide doc being written and the kubuntu packaging guide on the wiki (w.u.c/KubuntuPackagingGuide)??
<mdke> i noticed that today
<mdke> we can ask laserjock
<mdke> probably, they have used it
<jjesse> if there is a big difference then we should include ubuntu packaging in ubuntu-docs and kbunt packaging in kubuntu-docs?
<mdke> yeah but i don't see how they would be
<mdke> hey LaserJock 
<mdke> did you see: w.u.c/KubuntuPackagingGuide
<LaserJock> no, I don't think I have
<mdke> check it out :)
<LaserJock> it's hard to keep track of all the different combinations
<mdke> we were wondering if the packaging guide can be shipped with both kubuntu and ubuntu or if kubuntu needs a speshul one
<LaserJock> mdke: I don't think so, really there are just a couple of differences in dependencies
<LaserJock> mdke: It would probably be good to just have a Kubuntu section
<mdke> cool
<LaserJock> but we should do something, thanks for bringing that up
<mdke> maybe you can work with the authors of that page
<LaserJock> yeah, I know a few of those guys
<LaserJock> ok, added Kubuntu to the outline
<mdke> rock
<jjesse> mdke: weekends are usually busy for me for a dekstopguide mtg but i can try and schedule around it, i'm GMT -5
<mdke> cool thanks, we can arrange a mutually good time
<mdke> -> afk
<jjesse> anyone else having issues w/ freenode always dropppping them?
<teroedni> nope
<teroedni> happends much with you?
<jjesse> 4th time today
<Kingbahamut> hmmm
<Kingbahamut> I have it happen on occasion 
<Kingbahamut> not sure if its the traf on my network or freenode itself
<jjesse> friday afternoon is always a light day at work traffic wise for the connection
<teroedni> hmm
#ubuntu-doc 2005-12-15
* #ubuntu-doc  [freenode-info]  If you're at a conference, please contact freenode staff to make sure we've made special allowance for many users coming into our network from a single internet address ( http://freenode.net/faq.shtml#gettinghelp ). Private messages from unregistered users are currently blocked, except to network staff, services and participating registered users ( http://freenode.net/faq.shtml#privmsg )... Thanks!
(mdke/#ubuntu-doc) bloody hell
(mdke/#ubuntu-doc) i don't envy the person who has to read that
<LaserJock> mdke: can I get the svn branch you are working on?
<mdke> sure it's branches/breezy
<mdke> seems like basically everything is in the debdiff
<mdke> LaserJock, I haven't committed any of the built package naturally
<mdke> do i need to pass any flags to debdiff?
<LaserJock> ok so did you do have the two .dsc files?
<mdke> yes
<LaserJock> so did you do debdiff first.dsc second.dsc ?
<mdke> yeah
<mdke> all hell broke loose
<LaserJock> ok, just a sec, I'm building the breezy source package
<mdke> the new one?
<LaserJock> yes
<mdke> cool
<mdke> it will take a long time
<LaserJock> doing the debdiff now
<mdke> how did it build so fast?
* rob1 pokes in
<mdke> hiya rob1 
<rob1> hi mdke 
<LaserJock> ok, so the debdiff is 11
<LaserJock> Mb
<LaserJock> because of all the .svn
<mdke> hmm
<mdke> ahh
<mdke> LaserJock, so how did you build it so quick?
<rob1> just reading your email about the meeting mdke 
<rob1> sounds like a good idea
<LaserJock> mdke: I'm just good ;-)
<mdke> rob1, cool :)
<LaserJock> mdke: what command did you use to build the source package?
<mdke> LaserJock, debuild
* rob1 has a week of work left before he gets really cracking on the guide
<mdke> rob1, ah good i've timed it right then. When is good for the meeting?
<LaserJock> hhmm, I used debuild also but I started it before I told you so maybe it was the same amount of time
<mdke> LaserJock, did it build all the localised stuff?
<theCore> what are you doing, guys ?
<mdke> LaserJock, so I take it the breezy package wasn't built with all the .svn stuff then?
<rob1> mdke, any time apart from 0400z onwards today 
<LaserJock> mdke: where there many revisions after the package (that is currently in breezy) was made?
<mdke> LaserJock, none
<mdke> to my knowledge
<mdke> rob1, so not today
<mdke> rob1, what day?
<LaserJock> ok, then I think that the .svn's must have been removed
<rob1> if its today, some time in the next four hours is good
<mdke> rob1, me too
<mdke> Madpilot, how about you?
<theCore> can i do something to help ?
<mdke> theCore, i think I will ask the same developer that took care of the breezy package to help
* rob1 is now a freenode oper
<theCore> mdke, ok
<LaserJock> mdke: I think I got it
<mdke> rob1, LaserJock cool
<rob1> wazzup?
<mdke> nah, i mean cool on freenode
<rob1> oh yeah :0
<rob1> :)
<LaserJock> mdke: I thought you were telling rob1 that I was cool j/k
<rob1> heh
<mdke> that too
<mdke> especially if you can fix my package
<LaserJock> well, I got rid of the .svn stuff so now the debdiff is 741k
<mdke> hmm
<LaserJock> but there is still a lot of differences
<rob1> oh god, theres a crazy frog christmas song..
<mdke> LaserJock, which files?
<LaserJock> it looks to be translation related
<mdke> oh shit
<mdke> i guess jeff built some new translations and didn't commit them
<LaserJock> a german version of the faqguide?
<mdke> LaserJock, the docs are translated, yeah :)
<mdke> ok lemme try this package
<mdke> http://doc.ubuntu.com/debs/breezy/
<mdke> if anyone wants to test
<LaserJock> ok, I got 27 files changed
<mdke> LaserJock, i'm not _that_ bothered because we were going to do translation update anyhow
<mdke> i wanna see if it works
<mdke> :)
<LaserJock> http://paste.ubuntu-nl.org/5568
<LaserJock> but does such a large debdiff make it less likely to get in breezy-updates?
<mdke> hmm
<mdke> i don't think so now
<mdke> LaserJock, any idea what the changes to faqguide.css are?
<Burgwork> LaserJock, depends on what is in the debdiff
<Burgwork> LaserJock, raw text will not make it harder, IMHO
<LaserJock> mdke: just a sec
<mdke> also, gnome/Makefile worries me
<mdke> so does libs/faqguide-html*
<LaserJock> the only difference in faqguide.css is ".revhistory { font-size: 20%; }"
<mdke> ah...
<mdke> thanks
<mdke> we don't ship the faqguide html anyway, so it doesn't matter
* mdke remembers a few basic things
<mdke> lol
<LaserJock> in gnome/Makefile many of the changes are related to adding --xinclude to xsltproc
<mdke> ok
<mdke> no problem
<mdke> i think actually none of those files are actually in the package
<LaserJock> anyway, what I did to get the the debuild to work is I added -I.svn
<mdke> ah cool thanks
* mdke writes down
<LaserJock> that will exclude all the .svn directories from being included in the .orig.tar.gz file
<LaserJock> -i might work too
<mdke> i've done this:
<mdke> ubuntu-doc@hudson:~$ cat .devscripts 
<mdke> DEBUILD_DPKG_BUILDPACKAGE_OPTS="-I.bzr -I.svn"
<rob1> I guess no dg meeting today?
<mdke> rob1, i think it would probably be a bit short notice
<mdke> i would be up for it, but I'd like a few more peeps
<rob1> who do you want to be here for it?
<mdke> Madpilot, whoever else
<mdke> jjesse said he was interested
<rob1> yeah, the kubuntu guys have been bugging for a copy of the dg, so the quicker we get this soughted out and done the better :)
<mdke> yeah
<mdke> jeez
<mdke> the package is building all the localised html, even though we don't ship it
<mdke> what a pain
<mdke> i might cut it out
<rob1> mdke, are you messing with the dg currently?
<mdke> rob1, nope
* rob1 fires up gedit
<LaserJock> mdke: how long does it usually take to get commit access to the doc-team repo?
<mdke> LaserJock, a decent time :(
<LaserJock> ok
<rob1> About Ubuntu -> What is Ubuntu looks like it was taken from Wikipedia (I got it from the UG though), should we ditch it?
<mdke> we can rework it if necessary i think
<mdke> maybe draw from the About Ubuntu doc
<rob1> what a pita
<mdke> if it overlaps with About Ubuntu, and we decide to ship About ubuntu, we can ditch it
<rob1> I'd still like to keep something brief along those lines though in there
<mdke> well, if we ship both, we can interlink them
<LaserJock> i gotta go, cya all
<Kingbahamut> lambert 
<lambert_> kb, 
<Kingbahamut> aye sir
<lambert_> just replying, moving slow
<Kingbahamut> ahh
<Kingbahamut> Wasnt Todd Lambert a basketball player in America?
<lambert_> ?? not sure
<theCore> ls
<lambert_> I only know jack lambert of the 70's steelers
<Kingbahamut> ahh
<Bonzodog> https://launchpad.net/people/bonzodog01/
<Bonzodog> I have signed it
<manicka> hoot.... well done
<Kingbahamut> lol
<Kingbahamut> bout time bonz
* #ubuntu-doc  [freenode-info]  If you're at a conference, please contact freenode staff to make sure we've made special allowance for many users coming into our network from a single internet address ( http://freenode.net/faq.shtml#gettinghelp ). Private messages from unregistered users are currently blocked, except to network staff, services and participating registered users ( http://freenode.net/faq.shtml#privmsg )... Thanks!
<theCore> #ubuntu has been attacked
<mdke> happened in #launchpad earlier today
<Madpilot> under control now
<mdke> hey Madpilot 
<theCore> it was crazy
<Kingbahamut> lol
<Kingbahamut> I hate it when that happens
<Kingbahamut> they determine who?
<mdke> Madpilot, see my mail about a quick meeting on the desktopguide?
<Madpilot> mdke: I did, haven't had time to respond yet
<mdke> Madpilot, cool :)
<theCore> Kingbahamut, not yet
<mdke> my mail is lagging 10-24 hours behind
<mdke> Kingbahamut, just script kiddies
<mdke> setting -R or -r on the channel should do the trick
<Bonzodog> mdke: have signed the CoC tonight
<mdke> Bonzodog, hello, glad to hear it
<Bonzodog> thanks :)
<manicka> Bonzo: How does it feel to be an ubuntero?
<Bonzodog> it's good
<Bonzodog> It feels like I can really count myself in now to making a contribution
<Kingbahamut> lol
<Kingbahamut> Bonz left
<Kingbahamut> darn
<lambert_> kb, do you get my responses back?
<LaserJock> mdke: ping?
<robotgeek> hi, i think the packaging guide here has a few error. it's in draft, so i tht i would let you guys know? 
<robotgeek> http://doc.ubuntu.com/generic/packagingguide/C/index.html
<Madpilot> robotgeek: are you on the -doc mailing list?
<robotgeek> Madpilot: no, 
<robotgeek> i can join up real quick,though
<robotgeek> okay, an i just point out the errors, and you guys take care of it :)
<Madpilot> given that it's dead here, you might be best to sent mail to the list pointing out the typos
<robotgeek> i don't mind making changes to the source and submitting patches
<rob1> I'll be back in the next 20 minutes or so
<Madpilot> robotgeek: OK, if you want to do the DocBook changes & send the diffs, that would be even faster
<robotgeek> hmm, i'm just starting out on the guide . but yes, i'll ping back in here, i guesss
<robotgeek> okie, there's only one error i found, well maybe 2
<robotgeek> oh well, i think that link is outdated
<robotgeek> Madpilot: nvm, i think it's been fixed. sorry for the alarm
<robotgeek> http://doc.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/packagingguide/C/index.html is the correct url. 
<robotgeek> maybe someone should remove the draft copy at http://doc.ubuntu.com/generic/packagingguide/C/index.html . thanks, and sorry for the error
* rob1 is off to update his laptop to dapper to squash some apic bugs
<robotgeek> rob1,Madpilot mailed the errors
<rob1> ok
<robotgeek> i was trying to learn to package :)
<robotgeek> rob1: thanks, cya around
<rob1> thats a good way to discover bugs in the docs :)
<rob1> cya
<robotgeek> lol
<mdke> LaserJock_, pong
<jsgotangco> hey all
<Kamping_Kaiser> hi mate
<Belutz> jsgotangco, http://belutz.blogspot.com/2005/12/ubuntu-in-debian-conference-ii.html
<jsgotangco> ahh!!
<Belutz> ahh ??
<Belutz> by the way, miss philipines is very very pretty :D
<jsgotangco> miss philippines of?
<jsgotangco> well yeah we do have incrediby beautiful ladies over here
<Belutz> hmm there's a miss world competition in TV right now, and miss philippines made it to semi final
<jsgotangco> wow
<Belutz> :)
<Belutz> miss indonesia didn't make it
<jsgotangco> Belutz: a few months ago, the philippines won Miss International in Japan...
<Belutz> wow
<Belutz> maybe i should move out to philippines :D
<Kamping_Kaiser> lol
<jsgotangco> Belutz: http://preciouslara.thequigamans.com/
<Belutz> wow
<jsgotangco> i dunno why our country is so involved in beauty pageants :D
<Belutz> hahaha
<Kamping_Kaiser> need a break from documenting? ;)
<Belutz> Kamping_Kaiser, lol
* jsgotangco looks for philippines candidate for miss world
<Belutz> jsgotangco, she's very pretty
<jsgotangco> hmmm
<jsgotangco> oh i agree
<Belutz> jsgotangco, i think it's in http://www.missworld.tv if i'm not mistaken
<jsgotangco> http://www.missworld.tv/bio/bio.sps?iBiographyID=51619
<Belutz> yup, that's the one
<Belutz> and miss korea :p
<jsgotangco> i saw a lot of beautiful women in seoul
<Belutz> wew
<jsgotangco> Belutz: miss indonesia ain't bad either
<Belutz> jsgotangco, yup
<jsgotangco> actually the asia pacific group is stunning
<jsgotangco> http://www.missworld.tv/contestants/asian.sps?iType=10599&icustompageid=15590
<Belutz> http://www.infoartis.com/Mariana_Renata/Mariana_Renata.htm <--- very pretty indonesian girl, she's in lux's soap advertising
* Kamping_Kaiser observes ubuntu-doc working overtime ;)
<Belutz> i really like oriental looks :p
<Belutz> Kamping_Kaiser, err.. we are documenting pretty asian girls... lol
<jsgotangco> Belutz: most of our commercials are just passed on to each other in the Asean region...
<jsgotangco> we also get thai advertisments...
<Kamping_Kaiser> lol Belutz
<Belutz> jsgotangco, i see
<Kamping_Kaiser> *shrug* we get lumped with US and GB ads here in Australia.
<jsgotangco> Belutz: have you seen this http://gadgets.fosfor.se/the-top-10-weirdest-usb-drives-ever/
<jsgotangco> i bought the tempura style USB a few months ago
<jsgotangco> heh
<Belutz> yes, my friend bought a sushi USB 
<Belutz> hehehe
<jsgotangco> http://www.engadget.com/entry/1234000270051750/
<Belutz> one of each kind
<jsgotangco> i've seen the dimsum usb before...
<jsgotangco> i should have bought one
<Belutz> http://www.engadget.com/entry/1234000090038615/ <--- cool
<jsgotangco> haha crazy japanese devices
<Belutz> yup
<Belutz> lol
<jsgotangco> see you guys later i have to wake up early
<jsgotangco> :D
<jjesse> working on the typos that dholabach mentioned to mailing list i'll commit them
<mdke> jjesse, did you commit that already?
<jjesse> mdke: no i didn't
<mdke> ah k
<jjesse> mdke: should i then?
<mdke> jjesse, if you're done with it, yeah :)
<jjesse> mdke: ok
<jjesse> ok should be committed
<mdke> thanks dude
<jjesse> no problem i'm at work for 12 hours on a saturday upgrading to a new AS/400
<mdke> ouch
<jjesse> so i'mm sitting here waiting for full system saves to finissh
<mdke> commit hasn't come through yet :(
<jjesse> hmm let me check 
<mdke> it's at 2200 right now
<jjesse> Committed revision 2201.
<mdke> thanks :)
<jjesse> no problem, like i said, have lots of free time today :)
<LaserJock> mdke: what is the difference between http://doc.ubuntu.com/generic/packagingguide/C/ and http://doc.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/packagingguide/C/ ?
<jjesse> i would argue that gneric/ would be the one you would want to edit
<LaserJock> but in the repo there is no ubuntu/packagingguide
<jjesse> LaserJock: it must have been moved to gneric/packagingguide and not removed from doc.ubuntu.com
<jjesse> mdke: can you confirm that?
<LaserJock> hmm, I thought it was always in generic but I could be wrong
<jjesse> the svn repo is probablly more current LaserJock 
<LaserJock> oh well, I just noticed that somebody got confused about it
<mdke> it is online at ubuntu/packaginguigde
<mdke> but in the repo at generic/packagingguide
<mdke> LaserJock, ^^
<LaserJock> ok
<LaserJock> how often is the ubuntu one updated?
<mdke> each day
<LaserJock> hmm, I haven't changed the packaging guide for a while but robotgeek said that they weren't the same
<mdke> no, ok i've deleted the wrong one
<LaserJock> which one is that?
<mdke> it was online at generic/packagingguide by accident
<LaserJock> ok
<mdke> the correct one is the one linked on the homepage :)
<LaserJock> k
#ubuntu-doc 2005-12-16
<mdke> hey there Judax :)
<Judax> HIya
<Judax> or...Hiya
<mdke> whichever you prefer
<mdke> how's it going?
<Judax> not too bad, how about yourself
<rob1> hi mdke 
<mdke> good thanks, hi rob1
* rob1 is updating to dapper on his laaptop
<jjesse> dapper kubuntu i'm getting erros so be careful rob1 
<mdke> cool
<Judax> just got 2 mac mini's and put kubuntu on one and gentoo on the other
<rob1> trying to squash a bug 
<rob1> thats my main reason for it
* mdke 's computer suffers as he forces it to build translated xml
<jjesse> good luck with that :)
<mdke> yeah my laptop really struggles with it ;)
<jjesse> mdke: remember when i mentioned i wsa doing that migration, still at it :(
<mdke> ouch
<jjesse> just started the system restore, should be 4 more hours :(
<mdke> blimey
<mdke> hope they pay you extra
<jjesse> the whole day is overtime
<mdke> good
<jjesse> time and a half :)
<jjesse> but the good thing is the satilitte tv connections come into the server room, so i just bring in a tv and hook it up
<mdke> ah nice
<mdke> fucking rosetta pisses me off
<mdke> so many bugs
<jjesse> so on that bug, should i update to refrence it will be fixed in the serverguide or just leave it as is?
<mdke> not sure
<mdke> i didn't really read the bit it related to
* mdke edits the finnish translation of the faqguide by hand to make it work
* LaserJock is unfortunately unilingual. Darn US school system ;-)
<jjesse> grin so am i :)
<mdke> i don't speak much finnish either
<mdke> nor portughese, romanian or serbian
<mdke> all of which have errors :(
<mdke> stupid rosetta >_<
<Judax> mdke: sounds to me like YOU are rosetta
<mdke> mm?
<Kaiser_Sleeps> `svn up` is the command to bring a svn repostiry up to date isnt it?
<mdke> yeah
<Kaiser_Sleeps> thanks
<rob^laptop> dang, my laptop still has the bug
<rob^laptop> even with dapper
<mdke> hey LaserJock, you around?
<LaserJock> yeah
<mdke> LaserJock, just a small thing, any idea what this is:
<mdke> Now signing changes and any dsc files... signfile ubuntu-docs_5.10-7.dsc Matthew East <mdke@ubuntu.com>
<mdke> gpg: skipped "Matthew East <mdke@ubuntu.com>": secret key not available
<mdke> gpg: [stdin] : clearsign failed: secret key not available
<theCore> mdke, i got the same error
<mdke> from -docs?
<LaserJock> sure looks like your gpg key isn't working
<theCore> mdke, it's something related to the key-agent
<mdke> ah
<mdke> i don't have a gpg agent afaik
<mdke> who would know about this stuff?
<theCore> mdke, there is another way to sign your package
<mdke> i'd like the devscript to work tho :(
<theCore> mdke, just give a few second to find it
<LaserJock> ok do you export DEBFULLNAME and DEBEMAIL somewhere?
<mdke> not to my knowledge
<LaserJock> i have it in .bashrc
<mdke> is .devscripts enough?
<LaserJock> yeah, if it is in there
<mdke> no
<mdke> what do i put in there?
<LaserJock> well, I don't have a .devscripts but you should be able to just put the name and email address that is in your gpg key
<mdke> ok i'll try
<mdke> heh
<mdke> my debdiff is 8 meg
<LaserJock> oh man
<mdke> it's fine tho
<mdke> all translations
<LaserJock> right
<LaserJock> where those rosetta translations
<mdke> eh?
<LaserJock> are the translations done by rosetta
<mdke> yes
<mdke> i have done the faqguide, need to do the aboutubuntu translations now
<mdke> so the debdiff will go up even further :)
<LaserJock> will the docs ever be split up into different languages?
<mdke> in what way?
<mdke> oh the packages
<LaserJock> like ubuntu-docs-de, ubuntu-docs-en etc
<mdke> not sure
<mdke> it would be a decent idea i guess
<LaserJock> yeah, at package time
<LaserJock> seems like these .debs are pretty big
<mdke> yeah they are
<mdke> ideally, they'd be in language-packs but i think it will be too difficult
<mdke> LaserJock, it's still not signing the package
<LaserJock> mdke: so do you have gpg set up?
<mdke> as far as I know...
<LaserJock> mdke: if you do gpg --list-keys do you find your key?
<mdke> i use it for email
<LaserJock> ok
<mdke> the primary uid is not that email address tho, that doesn't matter right?
<theCore> mdke, sign your package manualy
<LaserJock> mdke: but mdke@ubuntu.com is in the list for your key?
<mdke> yep
<LaserJock> mdke: I'm honestly not very good with gpg. -motu might know
<mdke> ok
<mdke> it's not a bad error tho right?
<LaserJock> mdke: the "secret key not available" part is wierd
<mdke> hmm
<LaserJock> mdke: It doesn't prevent you from making the package
<LaserJock> mdke: You just haven't signed it
<mdke> no
<theCore> mdke, install sea-horse, it will solve the problem 
<LaserJock> most of the guys in -motu or -devel would know much more than me 
<mdke> seahorse is a gui frontend for gpg isn't it?
<theCore> mdke, it's also a gpg agent
<LaserJock> seahorse is good, gpa is also
<mdke> well gnome has a gpg agent doesn't it?
<mdke> built in?
<theCore> mdke, nope
<mdke> how about gnome-gpg - GPG passphrase agent based on GNOME Keyring
<mdke> is that good?
<theCore> mdke, but sea-horse work extremely in gnome, it has even gpg plugin in gedit
<theCore> mdke, i don't know
<theCore> mdke, btw, sea-horse is the default agent for ubuntu
<mdke> ok
<theCore> mkde, ha , i found it
<theCore> dpkg-buildpackage -rfakeroot -kSOMEKEY
<mdke> i'm using debuild
<theCore> :(
<mdke> i'll ask around
<theCore> ok
* mdke is working on getting an ENORMOUS debdiff
<mdke> i've just found another 5 new translations to install
<mdke> -> bed
<LaserJock> mdke: usually you can pass the same arguments to debuild as you would to dpkg-buildpackage
<mdke> ah ok
<LaserJock> debuild is just a wrapper around dpkg-buildpackage
<mdke> so there must be something I can stick into .devscripts
<mdke> do I give it the keynumber?
<mdke> or a uid?
<mdke> i'll try the number
<mdke> night all
<LaserJock> mdke I'm not sure
<LaserJock> good night
<theCore> ciao!
<LaserJock> mdke: you can also use -us -uc to not sign anything until you really need to
<mdke> -k# has worked :)
<mdke> it asks me for my passphrase at the relevant time
<mdke> thanks theCore !
<mdke> and LaserJock :)
<theCore> mdke, np
<mdke> 8.6M	debdiff.txt
<mdke> that's the end I think
<mdke> i've done everything
<LaserJock> cool
<mdke> i'll upload everything to the doc server
<mdke> it will take blooming ages tho
<Kingbahamut> blooming.....theres a term ive narry heard in years
<Kingbahamut> people in america dont use 
<Kingbahamut> it
<LaserJock> only if we are watching British tv ;-)
<Kingbahamut> lol
<Kingbahamut> Scot here, I have so little taste for the Brit subculture LJ
<Kingbahamut> =)
<Kingbahamut> but mdke is a good guy regardless
<LaserJock> hmm, haven't heard narry for a while either
<Kingbahamut> lol
<Kingbahamut> Stopped using it when I came to America 
* LaserJock needs to start watching some Monty Python ;-) 
<Kingbahamut> Why thats the most vicious and cruel tempered rodent yer ever set eyes on 
<LaserJock> lol
<Kingbahamut> I am Tim
<Kingbahamut> Tim the Enchanter 
<Kingbahamut> First must thou remove the holy pin
<Kingbahamut> then shall thou count to three
<Kingbahamut> no more 
<Kingbahamut> no less
<Kingbahamut> three is the number thou shall count
<Kingbahamut> and the counting of the number shall be three 
<LaserJock> 5 is right out
<Kingbahamut> 4 shall thou not count
<Kingbahamut> nor 2
<Kingbahamut> 5 is right out 
<Kingbahamut> One Three, the 3rd number be reached 
<LaserJock> man, I am going to laugh all night now
<LaserJock> I love that movie
<Kingbahamut> lol
<Kingbahamut> so do I 
<LaserJock> the cool thing is you just say one thing and a whole flood of laughs start
<Kingbahamut> lol
<Kingbahamut> no kidding
<Kingbahamut> So if she weighs as much as a duck
<LaserJock> BURN HER!!
<LaserJock> She turn me into a newt
<Kingbahamut> it got better
<LaserJock> Well, I got better
<Kingbahamut> well we did do the nose
<Kingbahamut> and the hat
<Kingbahamut> but she has got a wart
<Kingbahamut> No no , I want to go in and face the peril
<Kingbahamut> no
<Kingbahamut> the peril is too perilous
<Kingbahamut> I bet your gay
<LaserJock> just a little peril?
<Kingbahamut> LJ I like you already 
<Kingbahamut> =)
<LaserJock> You sound ok too
<Kingbahamut> lol
<Kingbahamut> yeah 
<Kingbahamut> I try 
<Kingbahamut> despite what they say about me
<LaserJock> I haven't heard anything bad, yet ;-)
<Kingbahamut> geeze
<Kingbahamut> how is that possible
<Kingbahamut> lol
<LaserJock> well, so far I have stayed in -motu mostly
<Kingbahamut> I think for a while
<Kingbahamut> I was the most hated of all on the forums
<LaserJock> that's not fun :(
<LaserJock> nobody likes to be hated
<Kingbahamut> I get used to it 
<Kingbahamut> I have an opinion
<Kingbahamut> and if others dont like it 
<Kingbahamut> theyll get over it 
<Kingbahamut> <----seriously and militantly anti windows
<LaserJock> was that ^^ a problem?
<Kingbahamut> for a number of people yes
<Kingbahamut> I honestly see no reason for any user
<Kingbahamut> to have to use it 
<Kingbahamut> I dont 
<Kingbahamut> why should someone else 
<LaserJock> well, I am trying to get Ubuntu into university research
<LaserJock> it is amazing how many research groups use windows
<Kingbahamut> BioInformatics
<Kingbahamut> I have a friend over at UGA and another at GAtech
<Kingbahamut> that are both interested in builds of Ubuntu
<LaserJock> I am lucky, my advisor couldn't use windows even if he wanted to
<Kingbahamut> that can satisfy those needs
<LaserJock> I want to use just regular Ubuntu
<Kingbahamut> for computational analysis 
<LaserJock> not necessarily for computational research
<Kingbahamut> I dont think that windows can beat it 
<Kingbahamut> but thats just an opinion
<Kingbahamut> plus clustering is much cheaper that Mainframing
<Kingbahamut> that alone appeals to many uni's
<LaserJock> but for just regular scientific research 
<Kingbahamut> windows still cant beat a decent nix/ubuntu build
<LaserJock> well, many people will use linux for clusters and such but not for their regular machines
<Kingbahamut> thats a barrier that needs to be broken 
<theCore> my dad is a pro-windows guys, you should see is set of "reparing tools", i can't stop laughing at him 
<LaserJock> that is why I started the MOTU Science team
<LaserJock> many scientists only see linux as something to run on a cluster for computational/theoretical research 
<LaserJock> I use it for data aquisition and publication preperation
<LaserJock> presentations, everything
<theCore> linux is simply great for anything
<theCore> and it's free
<Kingbahamut> I aggree theCore 
<LaserJock> research groups spend well over $1000 per comp for data aquisition software
<Kingbahamut> but to some free isnt nessecary aggreeable
<Kingbahamut> unnessecarily so LJ
<LaserJock> kinda, linux is just getting to where it is comperable
<LaserJock> I write my own data aquisition programs, but there are starting to be more and more OSS alternatives
<theCore> LabVIEW is good
<LaserJock> yeah, that is what I am talking about
<LaserJock> my boss says that LabVIEW is the devil
<theCore> lol
<LaserJock> so that means I get to write everything in C
<LaserJock> or Fortran
<theCore> yuck, fortran ...
<LaserJock> I am trying to get him to let me migrate it to Python
<LaserJock> my lab uses Fortran almost exclusively
<LaserJock> but we don't have to do any hardcore stuff
<LaserJock> but I am lucky because at least my boss lets me use linux
<LaserJock> although he has started buying a lot more macs
<theCore> macs for scientific use ?
<LaserJock> yeah, because they can do most of the linuxy things that we do
<theCore> mac are more for artists than scientific
<LaserJock> but you can run Office on it
<theCore> that true, mac os x is build on unix now
<LaserJock> that is the only reason my boss would do it
<LaserJock> plus it is now "fashionable" to use macs among science profs
<theCore> i don't like this new tendence to get "fashion" computer
<theCore> it just a way to get more disturb
<LaserJock> yeah, I went to a national conference in August with about 20,000 chemists and virtually all the presenters had macs
<LaserJock> if you tell Apple your a scientist at a uni and they will give you a better deal
<theCore> lol
<theCore> mac are so expensive
<theCore> even if you get a rebate
<LaserJock> well, that is what government money is for ;-)
<theCore> at we can install ubuntu on them ;)
<theCore> at least*
<LaserJock> I am just going to get my boss to by me a AMD64 and save like $500 over an imac
<theCore> and you will probably get a better and faster computer
<LaserJock> heck yes
<theCore> nice i found a system with ubuntu as the default OS
<theCore> http://www.zinside.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=70
<theCore> ubuntu is getting BIG
<LaserJock> that is cool
<theCore> the comp is crapy however
<theCore> but it has ubuntu
<theCore> B+ for me
<LaserJock> I wouldn't turn it down
<theCore> i would never buy a pre-build, it so easy and fun to build a custom one
<LaserJock> yeah, but my boss won't let me build my own :(
<theCore> does your boss let you do something ?
<LaserJock> I can buy an imac
<theCore> lol
<theCore> yay!
<LaserJock> he will let me build pretty much anything prebuilt
<theCore> that give you some room for creativity
<LaserJock> well, HP has got some AMD64's
<theCore> get a Dell, HP suck
<theCore> HP puts really bad parts in their comps
<theCore> they cool case, though
<theCore> they have*
<theCore> Dell has better support too
<LaserJock> I have bad luck with both
<LaserJock> some of the high end Dells are ok, but they seem to have gone down hill recently
<theCore> really?
<LaserJock> I have and HP at home and at least 3 Dells at work, they all suck to some degree
<LaserJock> the Dell 8300 has been pretty good though
<theCore> i know, that why I always build custom system
<jjesse> dell business support is good, personal support sucks
<theCore> wtf, intel is going nuts
<LaserJock> right, the machine I have at work right now is a personal machine I built
<theCore> they are going to make processors with 8 cores!
<LaserJock> jjesse: it is hard for us academics too, I think we end upin personal support
<jjesse> LaserJock: they keep the business support in the US and personal support is outsouced to india or somethin like that
<LaserJock> jjesse: yeah, I know ;-)
<jjesse> grumble, migration to new as/400 has tanked, going to be here all night
<LaserJock> what would you guys recommend for a desktop < USD$1500 ?
<jjesse> hp
<jjesse> if you have to go store bought
<LaserJock> that is what I was thinking
<LaserJock> I wish I could just build it myself though.
<theCore> LaserJock, why your boss prohibits you from building a custom system?
<LaserJock> theCore: because it wastes our time 
<LaserJock> he doesn't get that I could build it in an afternoon
<LaserJock> I spend more time dealing with the crap of trying to buy a prebuilt
<theCore> maybe, you could buy the comp in a local computer store
<theCore> you could get a custom system without building it ;)
<LaserJock> maybe
<LaserJock> It really doesn't matter suppose. I just hope he doesn't get me an imac
<theCore> lol
<theCore> i am sure you would get over it
<LaserJock> he probably would get mad at me if I put Ubuntu one it, but then he doesn't have to know
<jjesse> how would he now?
<LaserJock> he is so old school most of the time
<LaserJock> he would be checking out what I'm doing or something and he would be, "Wait this is brown, not silver"
<theCore> you got a really nice boss, you know ;)
<theCore> theme it
<LaserJock> oh, I really like my boss. He would probably just look at me funny
<LaserJock> I can get away with just about anything
<LaserJock> He just doesn't like these new fangled linux distros
<LaserJock> He is an old red hat guy. Has never used gnome or kde or much of anything gui
<theCore> macs are gui 
<LaserJock> yeah, but he just loads fvwm and emacs
<LaserJock> although hes starting to come around a bit
<LaserJock> at first he thought gnome was Windows
<theCore> gnome doesn't look like windows at all ...
<jjesse> grin gnome is ugly
<theCore> i like gnome
<LaserJock> well, he though kde was Windows to
<LaserJock> basically, anything besides fvwm was Windows
<LaserJock> but now that he has the mac he is better about it
<theCore> kde look more like window
<LaserJock> although his view of linux is from fvwm/red hat days
<LaserJock> he is always amazed that I can pretty much do anything a Windows or mac can do and I don't have to code it myself
<jjesse> LaserJock: im tied into IE on a lot of things
<theCore> jjesse, like ?
<jjesse> theCore: two programs that force me  to use activex and also NTLM authentication
<theCore> yuck
<jjesse> and of course Microsoft Exchange, for outlook
<LaserJock> bummer, I feel sorry for you
<jjesse> LaserJock: i'm a windows network admin for a living :)
<LaserJock> oh, well that makes sense then
<LaserJock> I'm a chemist so I am fairly free to do whatever I want
<LaserJock> except university IT can be troublesome
<jjesse> grin
<jjesse> i use linux at work as often as i can
<LaserJock> I have windows at home (for the wife) and Ubuntu at work
<jjesse> LaserJock: wife uses windows as well
<theCore> LaserJock, check i made ubuntu just like a mac: http://paste.ubuntu-nl.org/i5591
<LaserJock> cool
<LaserJock> I am much more into a traditional Ubuntu look though ;-)
<theCore> me too
<theCore> it could be cool for tricking your boss ;)
<theCore> he would certainly be confused
<LaserJock> yeah
<theCore> LaserJock, did you continue thePackagingGuide?
<LaserJock> not so much
<LaserJock> I hope to work on it more soon, I've been doing some motu work
<theCore> i would like to do some motu work too
<theCore> i would like to join the MOTUScience some day, those packages gotta make my life easier when I will start my science studies
<theCore> maybe after the Packaging Guide ...
<LaserJock> theCore: sure
<theCore> LaserJock, i must go
<theCore> cya
<Madpilot> hi robitaille
<robitaille> hello Madpilot 
<Madpilot> gearing up for the Christmas insanity?
<robitaille> it's not too bad. Shopping is nearly done since we have to ship most of it to the east  
<robitaille> And I'm taking 2 weeks off of holidays.  So it should be a relaxing time
<Madpilot> cool - do all three kids still believe in Santa? :)
<robitaille> The oldest is probably half and half still.  #2 is really looking forward to try to meet Santa.  And #3 doesn't really know what is christmas
<Madpilot> heh
<Madpilot> cool
<robitaille> I have to say that Christmas Day is great when you have young kids
<Madpilot> yeah, the rest of us cynics just start family arguments & such :P
<mdke> morning
<Kamping_Kaiser> hallo 
<mdke> LaserJock_, it seems that KubuntuPackagingGuide is being actively maintained, perhaps you could contact the authors and work together?
<jjesse> morning mdke
<jjesse> mdke: still at work
<mdke> no fucking way
<mdke> jjesse, the overtime is clocking up huh?
<jjesse> sure is, just wrapping things up
<mdke> phew
<mdke> it is night time there?
<jjesse> starteed at 12pm est saturday and it is currently 7:30 am
<jjesse> sunday morning
<jjesse> card for tape drive crapped out during the restore :(
<mdke> bloody hell
<jjesse> the good news is that while we waited for a new card from ibm i had the chance to introduce my boss to linux and he loves it :)
<mdke> oh awesome :)
<mdke> bloody hell there are about 5 wireless guides on the wiki
<jjesse> ok heding to bed have a good night 
<mdke> jjesse, night :)
<Kamping_Kaiser> later jjesse
<teroedni> anyone working on alsa documentation?
<mdke> upstream?
<teroedni> yea or something
<mdke> teroedni, you have to ask upstream...
<teroedni> is there any work being done?*
<teroedni> ahh
<teroedni> so where are this upstream
<mdke> http://www.alsa-project.org/
<teroedni> now in mean in ubuntu world
<mdke> erm
<mdke> upstream means the project that works on it on a distro-independent basis
<mdke> i.e. that ^
<teroedni> well i find their wiki to bad orginased
<mdke> for projects like ALSA, there is nothing ubuntu specific to document
<teroedni> so there is no work and are neither any work planed for the ubuntu wiki
<mdke> you can try and improve their wiki?
<teroedni> so if i wrote and want to submit to ubuntu you will just send me to alsa wiki<--is that correct
<mdke> teroedni, what do you have in mind?
<teroedni> i am planning making an easy to understand alsa wiki
<teroedni> preferly oin ubuntu
<mdke> teroedni, what do you intend to write about?
<teroedni> i will write all i can learn about the subject
<teroedni> command how to configure etc
<teroedni> while making it as simple as possible
<teroedni> :)
<mdke> if you want to write about Ubuntu, naturally you can use the Ubuntu wiki
<teroedni> the alsa wiki is to difficult
<mdke> but if you want to document ALSA, it would make sense to use the upstream project
<teroedni> hmm i guess i can use all;) but im not gonna get in conflict with alsa wiki people
<teroedni> thats what i fear that they wont like it if i make a simplify one 
<teroedni> i already started it on gwos and i plan to submit it to the ubuntu wiki when i starts to loook good...eg is finnished enough for your wiki submition....i hope you accept it then:) 
<teroedni> mdke wht do you think...i will be able to make the submit then
<teroedni> i hope your not gonna turn me off then.(
<teroedni> mdke :please what do you think??
<mdke> teroedni, anyone can post guides on the ubuntu wiki, you don't need approval
<mdke> teroedni, but I'm sure the alsa people will be happy too if you make a simple guide for them
<teroedni> okay i submit to ubuntu and alsa when ready then ...Go to hear;)   
<mdke> that way your work will not be limited to ubuntu, but all distros can benefit
<teroedni> yea a good point there mdke:D thanks'
<bhuvan> when's next docteam meeting ?
<bhuvan> can we make it on dec 17, if we have not already ?
<mdke> yeah next friday i guess
<bhuvan> mdke, ok
<bhuvan> time ?
<mdke> bhuvan, not sure... 
<bhuvan> 19:00 UTC ?
<bhuvan> s/19/14
<mdke> we've been rotating between 14 and 22
<mdke> i guess 14
<mdke> i can't make that :(
<bhuvan> ok, i'll update the wiki page
<bhuvan> oh ok
<bhuvan> i do have couple of topics to discuss :)
<mdke> ah cool
<mdke> what?
<bhuvan> 1) status of status pages
<bhuvan> it's not part of make target. atleast, they are not available in doc.ubuntu.com
<mdke> ok
<bhuvan> 2) cleaning up unnecessary/unmaintained docs from repo
<mdke> which?
<bhuvan> for example ubuntu/quickguide
<bhuvan> atleast in my opinion
* mdke nods
<mdke> you should post these things to the mailing list
<bhuvan> ok, thought of discussing it in meeting
<bhuvan> wouldn't mind discussing in mailing list
<mdke> if you post first, then it's quicker to discuss it on the mailing list
<mdke> mailing list/meeting
<bhuvan> yep
<bhuvan> mdke, it should read 14:00UTC?
<mdke> bhuvan, i wasn't sure about what time
<bhuvan> last time, i guess, it was 22:00UTC. so, this time it should be 14:00UTC
<mdke> especially since last week there was no meeting
<bhuvan> do you mean there was no meeting on dec 02 ?
<mdke> that is correct
<bhuvan> ok
<mdke> it was scheduled, but no one really turned up
<bhuvan> so, we must merge the agenda ?
<mdke> yes, those agenda items haven't been resolved yet
<bhuvan> ok
<bhuvan> good night all
<mdke> anyone home?
<mdke> heya :)
<dholbach> hellas
<mdke> wanted to ask your advice
<mdke> you see in our repo we have a "tags" section?
<mdke> i was wondering if i should add the source to the breezy version of ubuntu-docs
<dholbach> hmmm
<mdke> https://docteam.ubuntu.com/repos/tags/
<dholbach> i don't think matt will be happy with the 8,5M debdiff already
<mdke> dholbach, well, I'll ask him
<mdke> dholbach, but my question has nothing to do with that :)
<dholbach> ah ok
<mdke> its just archive maintenance I guess
<dholbach> ahhh ok
<mdke> i found it inconvenient that there was no breezy source in there when preparing the update
<dholbach> i thought it was about adding it to the package
<mdke> nono
<dholbach> ah ok
<mdke> just for the repo
<dholbach> what is the tags thing stupposed to be?
<mdke> i think it is for each release
<dholbach> subversion metadata?
<mdke> no... i think that in the past someone has just created a branch for each release
<mdke> any views?
<dholbach> i'm not quite sure yet, what they are needed for :)
<mdke> i'm not 100% sure either
<Kingbahamut> gents?
<mdke> hello Kingbahamut 
<Kingbahamut> http://linuxhelp.blogspot.com/
<Kingbahamut> seems your number 3 
<Kingbahamut> on that list capn
<mdke> me?
<Kingbahamut> aye
<Kingbahamut> top 10
<Kingbahamut> most popular ubuntu sites
<Kingbahamut> I happen to be 6 on that list
<mdke> i'm not on that list
<mdke> :)
<Kingbahamut> mdke = wiki and all its working
<Kingbahamut> kb = The Doc and all its working 
<mdke> not me
<Kingbahamut> your COLLECTIVE efforts
<Kingbahamut> when I say you, as in you everyone in this channel
<Kingbahamut> and all
<Kingbahamut> submitters to said documentation centre 
<Kingbahamut> =)
<mdke> well... the wiki is community based
<mdke> we maintain help.ubuntu.com
<Kingbahamut> hrmmmm
<Kingbahamut> I didnt see it on that list 
<Kingbahamut> help.ubuntu.com
<mdke> it's no 2
<Kingbahamut> ge3rf
<Kingbahamut> goes to show im utterly blind
<Kingbahamut> know the owner of the blog by chance?
<mdke> nope
<Kingbahamut> on of his links points to a jriddel?
<mdke> ok, but i don't think that is riddell's blog
<Kingbahamut> I assume not
<Kingbahamut> curious about the owner 
<mdke> dholbach, i'll ask on the mailing list, sorry to bother ya
<dholbach> don't worry
<dholbach> it's fine
<dholbach> i just didn't know :)
* #ubuntu-doc  [freenode-info]  If you're at a conference, please contact freenode staff to make sure we've made special allowance for many users coming into our network from a single internet address ( http://freenode.net/faq.shtml#gettinghelp ). Private messages from unregistered users are currently blocked, except to network staff, services and participating registered users ( http://freenode.net/faq.shtml#privmsg )... Thanks!
#ubuntu-doc 2005-12-17
<theCore> it is quiet today ...
<Madpilot> very
<LaserJock> yes
* SdPlissken whistles
<theCore> huh?
* theCore listen to what SdPlissken has to say ...
<theCore> as everyone SdPlissken has nothing to say ...
<LaserJock> pretty quite
<LaserJock> quiet I mean
<Kingbahamut> lol
<Kingbahamut> its still quiet 
<Madpilot> Kingbahamut: I noticed that you've switched the gwos wiki over to CC-PD - is that going to be the permanent license?
<Kingbahamut> aye it is Mp
<Kingbahamut> in accordance with discussion on mdke and myself
<Kingbahamut> why do you ask mp?
<Madpilot> you're ahead of the official docs, then - I don't think there is a final decsion as to licencing for them... :(
<Madpilot> just curious
<Kingbahamut> I try to be as acommodating as possible Madpilot 
<Kingbahamut> may not always work the way I want it to 
<LaserJock> I think I'm going to have to GPL the Ubuntu Packaging Guide
<Kingbahamut> hmmmm, why?
<LaserJock> I don't like doing it but it is the way it has to be
<LaserJock> because all of the Debian docs are GPL
<Kingbahamut> seems viable then 
<Kingbahamut> Ive rarely understood the relationship between Debian and certain documentation 
<LaserJock> I don't get why they don't use GFDL
<LaserJock> other than maybe they package their docs, but that shouldn't matter
<LaserJock> anybody running dapper?
<Kingbahamut> not yet 
<Madpilot> nope
<Kingbahamut> will be on my CPx test lappy by weeks end though 
<LaserJock> hmm, yelp isn't working for me
<LaserJock> well, I'll try my breezy chroot
<LaserJock> hmm, works fine in my chroot
<LaserJock> must be dapper
<rob1> LaserJock_, I am
<rob1> Burgundavia, do you have ops in #ubuntu?
<robitaille> rob1 Burgundavia  is probably in bed :)  (and has been IRC idle for 31 hours...)
<rob1> yeah
<rob1> I need one of the #ubuntu ops to remove a couple of bans
<robitaille> I think some of the Ubuntu developpers have ops...
<rob1> I think they are all sleeping
<robitaille> pitti is around
<Madpilot> bob2 was around a little while ago, in #ubuntu & -offtopic
<rob1> he is marked as away currently
<jjesse> morning :)
<jsgotangco> hey all
<jjesse> monrning jsgotangco 
<jsgotangco> hey jjesse how's things?
<jjesse> surviving
<jjesse> moved from an older as/400 to a new one over the weekend and it didn't go smoothly
<jsgotangco> ouch i can imagine, they are unpredictable beasts
<jsgotangco> i wonder though why move to a new system, an as/400 lasts forever
<jsgotangco> heh
<jsgotangco> good night
<mdke> night
<LaserJock> rob1: still around?
<mdke> lo LaserJock 
<LaserJock> hi mdke 
<LaserJock> mdke: you run dapper?
<mdke> LaserJock, yes, although not right now
<LaserJock> yelp/gnome-help won't start for me. I was wondering if it was just me or if it was a real bug
<mdke> will try this evening
<mdke> up to date?
<LaserJock> almost
<mdke> ok i'll check when I get home and ping you :)
<mdke> gtg now
<LaserJock> k, cya
<mdke> LaserJock, works here
<jjesse> pardon the stupid question: ive never really used yelp, but does the anouncement mean that before today you couldn't print a help page?
<mdke> jjesse, yep :)
<jjesse> that sounds like something that should be available from the beginning doesn't it?
<mdke> yep
<jjesse> wow
<mdke> yelp is a bit sucky
<LaserJock> mdke: so on your dapper gnome-help starts fine?
<mdke> LaserJock, yes
<LaserJock> well, that's odd
<LaserJock> ok, well it works in my dapper chroot so it must be some local config
<mpt> jjesse, fyi, you also can't search :-)
<jjesse> wow that really sucks
<LaserJock> but it displays docbook! very slowly
<Burgwork> jjesse, yelp is very much a neglected child
<jjesse> but documentation should be the killer for an open source project
<mpt> yes, those highly-trained highly-paid volunteer writers can kick MSDN's behind
<mpt> ;-)
#ubuntu-doc 2005-12-18
<mgalvin> hi all!
<mgalvin> hey just a heads up, i started writing up a review of flight 2 in case anyone is interested
<mgalvin> i will probably put it on the wiki soon
<mgalvin> i'll post a link when its set, please feel free to add to it if you like
<mgalvin> unless..., did anyone already start one?
<jsgotangco> flight 2 is out?
<mgalvin> no but i am starting to prep the review, it will be very "Soon"
<jsgotangco> ahhh
<mgalvin> nothing huge, just an overview and some screenshots and such
<mgalvin> thought it would be nice to have an overview of improvement and such to go along with the release
<jsgotangco> like we really have a cool usplash...
<mgalvin> yup! i already have a screenshot of it :)
<mgalvin> good night all
<mgalvin> here is the flight 2 overview i started in case anyone wants to add anything
<mgalvin> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DapperFlight2
<mgalvin> either way, i will finish more of it in the am
<mgalvin> later
<LaserJock> cya
<LaserJock> hi bhuvan 
<bhuvan> LaserJock, hello
<LaserJock> bhuvan: you just became a Ubuntu member not long ago, right?
<bhuvan> yes
<LaserJock> how long did it take to get svn commit access?
<bhuvan> almost 15 days
<LaserJock> did you have to do anything? except wait ;-)
<bhuvan> in my case, i guess, i happen to become ubuntu member to get svn commit access
<LaserJock> me too, at last CC meeting
<bhuvan> jsgotangco & mdke had issues getting svn access fo non-member. i become member, thus they were able to get it done with ease
<bhuvan> you, yeah i know, i remember recommending you that day :)
<bhuvan> i hope you forgot that fact :) :)
<jsgotangco> its much easier to approve commit access to a member
<jsgotangco> because elmo itself manages the keys and the servers
<LaserJock> I don't remeber a lot of the CC meeting. Things were moving fast and it was 6:00 am for me 
<bhuvan> LaserJock, ok
<LaserJock> itself? hmm, I always new he was a bot ;-)
<LaserJock> I just wondered if I needed to email him or something
<jsgotangco> LaserJock, hahaha..sorry that was a slipup
<LaserJock> jsgotangco: but a funny one
<jsgotangco> when i first started in ubuntu last year, everyone was saying elmo please sync, elmo please do that...
<jsgotangco> in my mind i thought elmo was a chat triggered bot that synced
<jsgotangco> hehe
<LaserJock> yeah, makes sense
<Madpilot> hi all
<LaserJock> hi Madpilot 
<Madpilot> hmm... just realized that BitTorrent isn't mentioned at all in the Peer-to-Peer section of the Desktop Guide - despite the fact that it's the only p2p service included in Ubuntu by default - I'll have to get something written for that...
<LaserJock> lol
<Madpilot> tonight I'm full of good food and too much beer (staff Christmas party) :)
<LaserJock> I'm trying to finish the last homework of my college career
<Madpilot> getting that done will feel good, I bet
<jsgotangco> hmmm
<jsgotangco> make should work
<jsgotangco> but it doesn
<jsgotangco> t
<LaserJock> I guess, after 8 years it will be nice to not have homework
<LaserJock> Friday will be my last final too, that will be even better :-)
<jsgotangco> gahhh stupid me i forgot to install make
<LaserJock> lol, that will do it
<rob1> LaserJock, you were looking for me?
<LaserJock> rob1: hmm, was I. I can't remember anymore
<jsgotangco> hey rob1 where in au are you at?
* jsgotangco is flying for brisbane this weekend
<rob1> 0404| LaserJock rob1: still around?
<rob1> Townsville
<LaserJock> maybe it was about yelp on dapper
<rob1> about 1000km north
<LaserJock> a bit of a drive ;-)
<jsgotangco> ugghhh
<rob1> only an hour and a half by plane
<rob1> if that
<Madpilot> speaking of Yelp - is it going to acquire a search function anytime soon?
<jsgotangco> if the patches submitted are applied
<LaserJock> rob1: anyway, I think you can disregard my ping. My yelp crashes for some reason, but it seems to just be my box
<rob1> yelp is pretty dodgy
<rob1> my dapper upgrade on my laptop went pretty good, a few bugs but a lot more stable then breezy was
<LaserJock> well, I have dapper chroot and it works in that so I'm not too bothered by it
<jsgotangco> LaserJock, its a known issue
<LaserJock> it's just that it is the only program I know of that renders docboook
<rob1> jsgotangco, the fact that its dodgy, or the search function?
<rob1> heh
<jsgotangco> heh
<LaserJock> I still don't get why it renders xml so much slower than html
<jsgotangco> conglomerate is getting much better though
<jsgotangco> LaserJock, because it does some voodoo css on its own
<rob1> hmm sf.net has had a face lift
<jsgotangco> for some reason, even that is slow
<LaserJock> yeah, I tried conglomerate  out the other day. Kinda confusing to me. Right now it is easier for me to just turn it into html
<jsgotangco> yes
<rob1> it has such an ugly name
<jsgotangco> for some people i work with, they seem to like conglomerate
<jsgotangco> it still doesn't render correctly, but its a minor issue
<LaserJock> I probably just need to try it more.
<LaserJock> so there really isn't an alternative to yelp? or am I just missing something
<jsgotangco> yelp is the gnome help viewer - jdub
<jsgotangco> :D
<LaserJock> but if I just want to render some .xml files quickly?
<rob1> yet, that same line of reasoning didn't stop them creating gai when synaptic does the job much better
<rob1> but hey, who am I to disagree with a developer?
<jsgotangco> rob1, synaptic is a different animal that has a different use for Ubuntu while gai is a complete turnaround to synpatic's supposed complexity
<rob1> but yet, its limited, redundant and therefor useless
<jsgotangco> that's your personal opinion as a user and does not reflect the opinion of the general users
<Madpilot> rob1: but it's (slightly) less scary than Synaptic, for some people...
<jsgotangco> as documentation/technical writers, we don't have the liberty of expressing personal opinion
<rob1> not my decision really
<rob1> yep
<jsgotangco> (in writing btw)
<Madpilot> the only time I use GAI is to check what's included there or not...
<jsgotangco> actually i use gai
<jsgotangco> i like the bling it provides
<rob1> I use aptitude in a shell
<LaserJock> I think it is kinda cool, but I think that it would have been better to have  basic/advanced modes of synaptic or something like that
<Madpilot> LaserJock: you can actually launch Synaptic from GAI for advanced installs
<LaserJock> Madpilot: right, I would like it reversed, in Synaptica have an easy button 
<rob1> no gui crap to get in the way, but if I was to use the graphical tools I'd use synaptic over gai for sure
<jsgotangco> we eat our own dog food
<LaserJock> having all these install tools does make it a bit more difficult to write about
<Burgundavia> rob1, no, I don't have ops on #ubuntu
<rob1> Burgundavia, yeah never mind, I got hold of crimsun
<Madpilot> Burgundavia: wasn't that question asked about 24 hours ago?:P
<Burgundavia> Madpilot, something like that
<Burgundavia> Madpilot, I don't turn my computer off if I am at C's
<LaserJock> I had a lengthy conversation with -motu about what to use in the Packaging Guide, we ended up deciding not to say anything ;-)
<rob1> we just had users from toronto complaining to us about it
<rob1> a dodgy ban that was set
<jsgotangco> LaserJock, rightfully so, people who are reading a packaging guide should already know what to use really
<LaserJock> jsgotangco: that's what we decided. But there are some interesting things that come up between using aptitude and apt-get
<LaserJock> jsgotangco: aptitude installs Recommends by default whereas apt-get doesn't
<jsgotangco> yeah and aptitude/apt discussion is a totally different beast heh
<rob1> see http://os.newsforge.com/comments.pl?sid=42537&op=&threshold=0&commentsort=0&mode=thread&tid=2&tid=130&pid=0
<rob1> theres 9 reasons on there why you should be using aptitude over apt-get
<rob1> actually, this ones better:   http://linux.derkeiler.com/Mailing-Lists/Debian/2004-04/3181.html
<jsgotangco> yes
<jsgotangco> its often advised to use aptitude in a dist-upgrade scenario
<LaserJock> yeah, but for me the UI was confusing enough that it took me a long time to want to use it
<LaserJock> the Recommends by default thing is slightly concerning. You can issue the same command in apt-get and aptitude and get different results
<rob1> sure, but you can turn it off
<LaserJock> yeah, but you have to tell all the newbs that :-)
<rob1> and I typically want the recommended packages anyway :)
<LaserJock> me too
<rob1> jsgotangco, are you going to Sydney when you come over here?
<jsgotangco> rob1, i might drop by, i want to go to sydney again and feel the heat
<rob1> heh heat
<rob1> there has been three nights of riots there
<jsgotangco> wah?
<rob1> huge groups of lebs and white surfer types kicking each others butts
<rob1> and anyone who is unlucky enough to be outside when they pass
<rob1> and the police are mostly useless
<jsgotangco> well i could agree with the police being useless
<rob1> pretty bad stuff, out police can't use non leathal weapons apart from mase and battons
* jsgotangco got himself lost in sydney during UDU and the police wasn't that much help either
<rob1> so umm, if you go there don't leave the airport :)
<rob1> there are streets worth of cars getting smashed up, businesses etc
<jsgotangco> arggh
<jsgotangco> just like paris
<rob1> yeah
<rob1> they are tipping more riots tonight too
<rob1> I saw a well put together mock up of a GTA case, GTA:BB (Bondi Beach)
<jsgotangco> haha
<jsgotangco> i guess it sucks to go to bondi this time of the year
<rob1> ah well the weather is pretty good.. the locals are not.
<mdke> evening
<Burgwork> salut
<Burgwork> have you seen the linus-flame yet?
<mdke> not yet, been too busy
<LaserJock> the Gnome one?
<Burgwork> yep
<LaserJock> reading right now
<LaserJock> quite interesting
<Burgwork> Linus was a fool
<mdke> he's an odd chap, certainly
<Burgwork> I am not a fan of KDE personally but I can disconnect that from supporting KDE
<LaserJock> He sure made his point "Any Gnome people who argue that it's about "usability" have their heads up 
<LaserJock> their asses so far that it's not funny."
<Burgwork> with BIG BOLD CAPS
<Burgwork> JUST IN CASE YOU MISSED THAT GNOME USERS ARE IDIOTS
<LaserJock> although, I agree with a lot of what he is getting at
<LaserJock> He seemed pretty rude about it
<Burgwork> usability is a very nebulous concept
<LaserJock> yes
<Burgwork> looks great from 30k feet but needs more concrete action and usecases from the ground
<Burgwork> that is what is missing on the usability mailing list most of the time
<Burgwork> Jeff Waugh "None of this discussion has impacted the healthy working relationship
<Burgwork>   that the desktop developers have built, despite the dim white noise of
<Burgwork>   users beating each other to a pulp in the background."
<LaserJock> but I agree that you can have options for advanced user while keeping things simple
<LaserJock> that has been the biggest problem I have had with Gnome
<Burgwork> from watching my work mates use Fedora core at work (all are windows users at home), I would say that fixing bugs is more important
<Burgwork> they don't much care about options
<Burgwork> in fact, only 2 of the 6 of us have customized our desktops
<Burgwork> one moved the top bar to the bottom and removed the bottom bar and I added more workspaces and the task monitor
<Burgwork> IE: good defaults and thus good policy matter
<jjesse> i was trying to show my boss kubuntu and things crashed, three or four times and was like "sometimes that happens"
<LaserJock> I would think that they would though, if they could. I found customizing Gnome to be a big pain in the butt. It was a lot easier in KDE
<Burgwork> LaserJock, I seriously doubt it
<Burgwork> LaserJock, moving a panel or adding things to it is pretty easy and yet they don't do it
<LaserJock> hmm, to be honest, that seems silly
<Burgwork> most power users fail to realize that most non-power users don't change defaults
<Burgwork> it took me a long time to accept that to
<Burgwork> s/to/too
<LaserJock> I do the same thing, but that is because I can't get Gnome to do anything the way I want it too?
<Burgwork> but you try and fail
<jjesse> i think Burgwork was right when he said fixing bugs should be more important then making thing s look prettier
<Burgwork> they don't even try because they don't care
<LaserJock> I just find it is harder to work in Gnome, but then I am somewhat more used to KDE
<jjesse> i wish the smae thing was true for MS as well, make things work better then wasting time on making things look prettier
<LaserJock> jjesse: well, sometimes it's not just prettier, it is usability
<LaserJock> although most of the time it is just eye candy :-)
<LaserJock> I do wish KDE worked better in Ubuntu
<LaserJock> anyway, I am slowly conforming to the Gnome way of life
<Burgwork> LaserJock, bug riddel is something doesn't work
<Burgwork> LaserJock, he and Mark are keen to make Kubuntu the best KDE desktop on the planet
<LaserJock> yeah, I was thinking of installing KDE today. Getting kinda bored with just plain old dapper
<LaserJock> I really like Gnome though too
<LaserJock> I just wish they could have something like "Advanced" tabs or something
<Burgwork> LaserJock, advanced tabs are evil
<LaserJock> really? How so?
<Burgwork> LaserJock, if you can create a good usecase for something that bugs you, the gnome people are happy to accept that
<Burgwork> LaserJock, advanced tabs are evil because they mess with peoples minds
<Burgwork> people don't click them because they don't think they are advanced enough or do because they think they are
<Burgwork> either way, it is not task driven
<Burgwork> tabs labelled for what is actually on them is better
<LaserJock> hmm, I just seems like you can have lots of options, but in a user friendly way
<LaserJock> I didn't think KDE's setup was bad at all
<Burgwork> questions need answer
<Burgwork> s
<jjesse> apt-get install kubuntu-desktop 
<jjesse> how can it get easier ?
<LaserJock> jjesse: doing it as we speak
<Burgwork> ergo, if you ask a user a question, you need to make certain they have the information to be able to make an informed choice on that answer
<Burgwork> hence why Ubuntu has nothing in the install about KDE vs Gnome
<Burgwork> we simply cannot provide enough information in the installer for the user to make an informed  choice
<jjesse> but it shouldn't it would just complicate things
<Burgwork> but we can ask them what  their name is
<LaserJock> I like the Gnome look and feel, but the KDE configurability 
<Burgwork> LaserJock, sometimes options are simply left off not through deliberate design choice, but merely not having enough time to figure out how to do it well
<LaserJock> yeah, it can't be easy
<LaserJock> anway, I think my biggest problems are with Metacity rather the Gnome itself 
<LaserJock> although the gnome-menu is kinda a problem to me
<LaserJock> it keeps getting smaller and smaller. I just can't see how it is more usable to not be able to find applications
<Burgwork> the end goal is not WIMP but task and document driven
<Burgwork> there are going to be bumps along that road
<LaserJock> WIMP?
<Burgwork> window, icon, menu, pointing device
<Burgwork> the current Windows, KDE and Gnome way to doing things
<Burgwork> OS X is sort of a hybrid with its roots in WIMP
<LaserJock> how does that work with having more than one app that can do a task?
<Burgwork> you should never  have more than one app that can do a task
<LaserJock> that seems really weird, to be honest
<LaserJock> who decides what app does what
<Burgwork> the distro vendor
<Burgwork> and you, if you change it
<LaserJock> I have many apps that do the same thing, except some are better at some things than others
<Burgwork> but again, most users will never change the default
<Burgwork> LaserJock, you and I are not common computer users
<LaserJock> I don't think that matters
<LaserJock> My brother, a total computer newb, just went to buy photoediting software
<LaserJock> he had many choices
<Burgwork> how did make his decision?
<LaserJock> he looked at a bunch of options
<LaserJock> read the descriptions
<Burgwork> a decision that he really actually didn't want to amek
<LaserJock> sure he did
<LaserJock> how would he know what he was getting otherwise
<Burgwork> nope, he wanted photoediting software
<LaserJock> no, he had specific tasks he wanted to be able to do
<Burgwork> if his "distro", in this case windows, already came with what he needed, he would not have  needed to make that decision
<LaserJock> some photoediting software did his tasks better than others
<LaserJock> it did, but it didn't do the tasks he wanted as well as he wanted
<Burgwork> users only buy software because they HAVE to, not because they WANT to
<LaserJock> but how is he supposed to make an informed decision if he doesn't even know what he has
<jjesse> i disagree, i buy software (games) that i want
<LaserJock> in a perfect world with perfect software sure
<Burgwork> jjesse, that is slightly different
<Burgwork> regardless, if his distro had shipped good photoediting software, such as the GIMP and Fspot, he would not  have needed to make any decision
<jjesse> i bought photo elements from adobe because i wanted some photo editing software without shelling out the big books for photo shop
<LaserJock> jjesse: my brother almost got photo elements but there was another program that did what he wanted better
<jjesse> so he bought the one he wanted to
<Burgwork> he bought the one that he though could do the job that he needed to do
<LaserJock> The thing is, I just don't see how a distro can "pick" software for the user and then make it difficult for them to get anything else
<jjesse> Burgwork: what if fspot or gimp didn't do what he wanted or didn't come with easy to read documentation/tutorials to teach him
<Burgwork> LaserJock, that is a straw man attack
<Burgwork> I never said I wanted to make it difficult to get other software
<Burgwork> I just said that you need to ship good default software
<LaserJock> that is what I was talking about though
<LaserJock> the menus make it difficult to get new software
<Burgwork> if you do the latter, the former becomes less necessary
<LaserJock> because you don't know what you have or what it is called if it is all about the tasks and not about the apps
<Burgwork> umm "Add Applications?"
<Burgwork> LaserJock, most people think "I need to edit a photo", not "I need to use the GIMP"
<jjesse> Burgwork: but why does what a distro define as good software then become what fits my needs
<Burgwork> jjesse, because the distro can employ smart people to figure how people work
<Burgwork> and what they need
<LaserJock> but that seems to stiffle OSS
<Burgwork> to be honest, users are great at telling you waht they want. They are very bad at telling you how to get what they want
<LaserJock> that is the way MS took
<Burgwork> LaserJock, actually, no
<Burgwork> thhat is approach apple took
<LaserJock> either way, I don't see how it does any good to OSS and the linux community
<Burgwork> MS took the "cram everything into everything to try and satisfy everybody"
<LaserJock> that is what you will have to do
<LaserJock> I just don't see how you can put people in general in that tight of a box
<LaserJock> certain segments, certainly (gamers, graphics design, programmers, etc.)
<LaserJock> but the population at large, I just can't see it
<LaserJock> anyway, I'm not totally against what you are saying Burgwork, I just can't see how it would work better than what we have now
<LaserJock> If we had lots of time to study users and we had perfect apps, your right, no one would need to install 5 apps to do the same task.
<LaserJock> but the fact remains that people even do the same task in different ways that different apps will do better than others
<LaserJock> take vim vs. emacs for instance
<LaserJock> they are both extremely good editors
<LaserJock> they pretty much do the same tasks
<LaserJock> but because people edit in different ways, each will have its users
<LaserJock> so in order to not alienate people it seems that you should have both fairly easily available
* mdke points at #ubuntu-offtopic
<LaserJock> mdke: sorry
<LaserJock> althogh I kinda think this is relevent
<mdke> no apology necessary
<LaserJock> I'm just trying to figure out how users work and how linux relates to them
<LaserJock> and hopefully right documentation that helps them
<LaserJock> s/right/write/
<LaserJock> Burgwork has brought up some interesting ideas for me to think about
<LaserJock> maybe I will just think to myself for a while ;-)
<mgalvin> hey guys, speaking of writting, this is far from done, but can anyone think of any other good points to make here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DapperFlight2
<LaserJock> hmm, KDE does seem to have improved, although they still stick Science apps in Edutainment :(
<mdke> mgalvin, blimey, cool
<mgalvin> hey mdke: glad you like it so far :)
<mdke> nice to see you writing again :D
<LaserJock> mgalvin: is Firefox 1.5 final?
<mdke> its rc3
<mgalvin> yea, i'll try and contrib some more again where i can
<mgalvin> the version in dapper is not the final yet
<mgalvin> 1.5 finial will most likely be post flight 2
<mdke> yes
<mgalvin> mdke: do you think it woould be best host the flight 2 overview on (d|h).u.c
* mgalvin worries about possible ./ effect
<jjesse> when does flight 2 come out?
<mgalvin> the universal... "Soon" is what I was told :)
<mgalvin> they wanted to release it last week, so any day now i would imagine
<jjesse> riddell mentioned that now that kubuntu-desktop is building kubuntu flight 2 should be out "soon" as well
<mgalvin> cool
<mdke> mgalvin, certainly not if it will be slashdotted ;)
<mgalvin> :)
<mdke> mgalvin, ubuntu.com might work better, that is where usual release notes are found, along with the wiki
<mdke> i think just wiki might be the way forward actually
<mgalvin> ok, is there someplace I could store the images (other than my server)?
<mdke> mgalvin, upload them to the wiki
<mgalvin> ok, i will just do that then
<mdke> More Actions -> Attachments
<mgalvin> thnx
<Burgwork> mgalvin, doc.ubuntu.com might be a place we can consider for this sort of thing
<mgalvin> ok, well, i guess we can make a finial decision on where it will live once it is all done
<Burgwork> we should build a common framework so all the needs to be changed is the words and the screenshots
<mdke> Burgwork, well the stable releases aren't even there...
<mdke> and if it get's slashdotted that server will go down
<mdke> it already struggles with the bandwidth on help.u
<mdke> wtf do I always put an apostrophe in "get's"
<mdke> ugghn
<LaserJock> for some reason I am using a lot more ,s and 's since using irc
<mgalvin> Burgwork: sure, I can look at making it generic after I finish it
<Burgwork> mgalvin, look at the quicktour stuff
<Burgwork> mdke, hmm, that is a problem
<mgalvin> hey how to I properly get one attached image to link to another attached image
<mdke> Burgwork, yes
<mdke> mgalvin, HelpOnAttachments
<mdke> or something
<mdke> hang on
<mdke> HelpOnActions/AttachFile
<mdke> Burgwork, we'll work on getting help.u on a canonical server soonish
<mgalvin> i must be retarted, i can't seem to get one attachment to display AND act as a link to another attachment, is there an example of this somewhere (all the help pages don't mention it)
<mdke> mgalvin, i don't know if its possible actually
<mgalvin> i can get them to display on their own just fine, but not get one to act as a link to another
<mgalvin> hmm
<mdke> i seem to remember trying once and not succeeding
<mdke> there are macros that you can use, but I don't know if they are installed on our server
<Burgwork> moin needs some serious love to handle attachments better
<mgalvin> seems like i need to add that to the moin wish list
* Burgwork sighs and points to another wiki engine....
<mdke> mgalvin, as I say, there are Macros, just not on our wiki :(
<mgalvin> :(, oh well
<mgalvin> hmm, i want to try something
<jeffsch> maybe instead of "Click the thumbnail for the full size screenshot" have "Click here for the full size screenshot"
<mdke> you tried [attachment:Targetfile.png attachment:Displayfile.png] ?
<mdke> oh hi jeffsch!
<jeffsch> howdy
<mdke> how are you?
<jeffsch> pretty good. exams are over.
<jeffsch> and you?
<mdke> very well thanks
<mdke> hope the exams went well
<mgalvin> mdke: i tried that, no go
<mgalvin> hey jeff
<jeffsch> hi matt
<mgalvin> jeffsch: I might just have to go with that, seems there is no other way :(
<mgalvin> other than hosting the images somewhere other than "in" the wiki, like i am not
<jeffsch> oh well. it's not fancy, but it works
<mgalvin> s/not/now/
<mgalvin> maybe we could just store just the images on d.u.c for now, not idea, but also not on my server ;)
<mgalvin> s/idea/ideal/
<mdke> hmm
<mdke> i don't mind
<mdke> but jeffsch's idea looks relatively sane
<mgalvin> it would distribute the load a bit more too
<mgalvin> yes it does
<mdke> you'd have the word [here]  linking to an attachment, obviously
<mgalvin> yup
<mgalvin> i'll set it up that way for now and see how it looks
<mdke> ok
<jeffsch> mdke: that's how my doctors describe me: "relatively sane" :)
<mdke> jeffsch, only to your face
<mdke> :)
<jeffsch> :-)
<mgalvin> hehe :)
<mdke> we should be getting a new ubuntu-docs in breezy soonish
<mdke> just waiting on the upload
<mgalvin> time to head home
<mgalvin> later all
<jeffsch> cya
<mdke> night
#ubuntu-doc 2006-12-11
<linuxphotogeek> I just submitted my first patch. What happens now?
<jjesse> it gets reviewed and the submitted
<linuxphotogeek> Should I expect feedback or just storm ahead?
<linuxphotogeek> I'm a new to this process.
<dsas> linuxphotogeek: One of the maintainers will pick it up sometime and either commit it, or ask for changes.
<dsas> people generally arent too active at this time on a sunday though.
<linuxphotogeek> Weekends are my only free geek time. I'll what to see what happens.
<dsas> linuxphotogeek: I don't think that the links need to be wrapped in itemizedlist and listitems, but if that's the way the GIMP entry does it...
<dsas> Not that I'm someone you should take feedback from too much ;)
<dsas> linuxphotogeek: It's cool to be only free on weekends, the mailing list lets us communicate asynchronously, there's usually activity at weekends, just not at midnight on sunday for the desktopguide
<linuxphotogeek> I think the idea might be that a project might want more than one link.
<linuxphotogeek> It only 4pm here.
<dsas> linuxphotogeek: Possibly, like I say, I don't really know <grin>
<dsas> linuxphotogeek: mdke is the current primary author/editor of the desktopguide I think, and it's midnight in his timezone...
<dsas> linuxphotogeek: Where are you from?
<linuxphotogeek> Moscow Idaho
<dsas> linuxphotogeek: heh, a place called moscow in america just seems weird
<dsas> linuxphotogeek: No offence :) just didn't know such a place existed
<LaserJock> linuxphotogeek: sweet, Moscow
<LaserJock> I'm from Montana originally
<nixternal> hillbilly
* LaserJock yells heeeeeyaaawwww
<nixternal> hehe
<LaserJock> I'm not so much a hillbilly though I don't think
<LaserJock> I did grow up in the sticks, but more "old West" cowboy kinda stuff
<nixternal> thats cool
<linuxphotogeek> Our hills are 10,000ft and the billies are moose and brown bears.
<linuxphotogeek> and we likes them.
<LaserJock> ;-)
<LaserJock> one of my good friends lived in Moscow for a while
<LaserJock> I think he's in Coeur d'Alene now though
<nixternal> Coeur d'Alene, only reason I know that is because of the tragedy there this past year
<nixternal> extreme makeover home edition is on...back in a bit :)
<LaserJock> heh
<linuxphotogeek> bye dinner calls.
<david_corrales> heya
<LaserJock> hi
<david_corrales> I have a quick question about registering OMF files with scrollkeeper
<david_corrales> I just copied the omf to the omfdir
<david_corrales> and the file resource points correctly
<david_corrales> then ran scrollkeeper-update
<david_corrales> but if I launch ghelp:name says it won't find it
<LaserJock> hmm
<LaserJock> I really don't know
<david_corrales> that's the process right?
<LaserJock> mdke would know but he's asleep
<david_corrales> hehe
<david_corrales> ah k, I'll try tomorrow :)
<david_corrales> thanks
<LaserJock> you might try either the omf help in the yelp or the gnome docs channel
<david_corrales> I'll try that
* somerville32 m
<Brunellus> stupid question:  what happened to wiki.ubuntu.com and why can't I go to its old start page?
<Madpilot> Brunellus, wiki.u.c is still there
<Madpilot> which URL are you using?
<Brunellus> http://wiki.ubuntu.com
<Brunellus> which automatically redirects to the corresponding help.ubuntu.com/community/ page
<Brunellus> which is not what I want.  what was wrong with wiki.ubuntu.com?
<Burgundavia> help pages are now on the help wiki, at help.u.c/community
<Madpilot> wiki.u.c is back to being just team pages, specs, and other internal things. the actual docs are at help.u.c/c
<Burgundavia> wiki.u.c is used for non-help stuff
<Brunellus> so is there a "start here" at help.u.c/c
<Brunellus> let me rephrase that
<Burgundavia> yep
<Burgundavia> help.ubuntu.com/community
<Brunellus> no, but the old "wiki sandbox"
<Brunellus> and the rest of it.  you know, for creating new pages.
<Burgundavia> just dive in, it is a wiki, just like wiki.ubuntu.com
<Brunellus> look, searching for new pages doesn't prompt to make a new one like it used to
<Brunellus> I'm sorry if I sound like I'm trolling
<Burgundavia> you need to be logged in
<Brunellus> but I *am* logged in
<Burgundavia> to help.ubuntu.com?
<Burgundavia> I get it
<Brunellus> got it.
* Brunellus grumbles.
<Brunellus> see, on w.u.c., a search that returned no results prompted a "would you like to make a new page"
<crimsun> Burgundavia: Issue24 done.
<Burgundavia> crimsun: thanks
<Brunellus> but cleverly, my overlords have made it so that this is no longer the case.
<Burgundavia> I don;t see that on either wiki
<Burgundavia> however, if you got a page that doesn't exist, you get the "create a page" \on both wikis
<Brunellus> Burgundavia, it used to be the case that a title search that returned no results got the "create a page"
<Brunellus> either that or I am smoking crack.
<Burgundavia> I think the latter, because I don't remember any such thing, and I have been editing since it was zwiki
<Brunellus> fine.
<LaserJock> I don't remember it being on title searches either
<nixternal> haha, he said the latter
<nixternal> Tip of the day: Don't smoke crack while trying to use the wiki
<david_corrales> o.o
<jeffsch> Burgundavia: re Brunellus: if your personal settings on w.u.c. are "remember last page" or some such, whenever you go to w.u.c it redirects you to the last page you visited
<Burgundavia> jeffsch: ah, hmm
<jeffsch> if the last page you visited has since been moved and redirected to h.u.c., then there you go
<Burgundavia> true, but he was talking about searching
<linuxphotogeek> I'm kind of confused about the interplay between documentation that is in YELP, the wiki and Community Contributed. Which is the most appropriate to work on? Which will be the most helpful to the most users?
<willvdl> ola, has anyone tried to make all edubuntu docs in trunk?
<willvdl> makefile complains about an images directory on /build
<willvdl> my bad..forgot to update
<david_corrales> morning. Anyone around who knows about scrollkeeper? :)
<mihakriket> I am currently working on the wiki for the advance commandline howto, does anybody have any feedback on some features/functions I should include.
<mdke_> david_corrales: ghelp only responds to documentation installed in /usr/share/gnome/help/docname, is yours registered there?
<david_corrales> I just talked to shaunm and he cleared that for me
<david_corrales> it's working now :) thanks man
<mdke_> good
<david_corrales> should be documented somewhere
<mdke_> yeah. I think they are hoping that stuff is just going to go away soon
<david_corrales> I read about a new system to replace scrollkeeper
<mdke_> yes, Don is developing one
<willvdl> ping nixternal
<nixternal> willvdl: pong
<willvdl> hey there. quick question if I may
<willvdl> in svn repo there are branches for the various ubuntu-doc releases.
<willvdl> they get packaged with release and are worked on during the release lifecycle
<willvdl> how often do they get packaged and added as updates to the archive?
<nixternal> they usually get packaged during the last couple of weeks prior tot he main release
<willvdl> for testing...
<willvdl> [review] 
<nixternal> well, as long ast he Makefiles are correct, they will build out for review on http://doc.ubuntu.com/edubuntu
<willvdl> but doc.u.c is the trunk right?
<nixternal> correct
<willvdl> how often are updates packaged into ubuntu-doc
<nixternal> well, they are only released into a stable release if there is a grave error, a mistake that would cost someone to damage their system
<nixternal> normal string updates usually don't get in a stable release, but get incorporated into the development release
<willvdl> aha. so string updates to the handbook for example would only live on h.u.c
<nixternal> string updates will be on doc.ubuntu.com, help.ubuntu.com builds off of the stable release, so if string updates get into a package then they will get into h.u.c
<willvdl> got it. so there is not much drive (or need) to further develop docs in the stable releases pending grave errors
<nixternal> correct
<nixternal> the focus now should be on the development release, fixing the bugs as we go along
<nixternal> if somone posts a bug to a stable release, that bug, unless grave, gets fixed in the development release
<willvdl> I'm just thinking of dapper docs (being LTS), should one feel it needs fleshing out...
<nixternal> personally i do, but that isn't up to me
<nixternal> with that in mind, it would be good to make 1 big fix to all documentation, as it has to get translation fixes as well
<willvdl> ah. hadn't considered translations.... changes things a bit
<Burgwork> the issue with updating docs in released version is of translations
<willvdl> how is that managed? i.e. should a change be made to dapper docs, how is the need for localisation communicated?
<willvdl> short of assigning the bug to the translation team
<nixternal> that im not 100% sure on just yet, that would be a Burgwork or mdke_ question
<willvdl> hmm, I suppose assigning the bug to the doc-team and the translation team could actually work...
<nixternal> i know one of our tasks is to create the translation templates, which i believe mdke uploads for translation to begin
<willvdl> doesn't leave much time for translations...
<nixternal> no it doesn't
<willvdl> similarly, should a loco team decide to do a translation "sprint" on a stable release, those efforts would need to get packaged and loaded to the archive
<willvdl> as an update as such
<nixternal> March 8th is the string freeze, which is the final doc turn in date, so translators have just over a month
<dsas> translations are regularly-ish updated in langpacks are they not? I have no idea if that goes for ubuntu-docs though.
<nixternal> thats what i thought, but im out of the translating look really
<nixternal> s/look/loop
<willvdl> I'm getting into it. am looking to try organise wordforge-style sprints for loco teams
<nixternal> that would be cool
<willvdl> urk, I've just realised the conversation we've just had on updates and releases is covered in a _very_ recent email thread
<willvdl> is TopicBasedHelp definitely  going to be in Feisty?
<nixternal> we are working on it
<willvdl> yeah, I know :) it is a monster spec ...
<willvdl> Is the idea to "carry on as before" and then (in parallel) try and extract topics into sections to fit the spec?
<nixternal> willvdl: sorry, yes that is how we are going about it at the current time
<nixternal> hiya jjesse
<jjesse> hiya nixternal
<nixternal> i have been playing around with other distros today..so far SuSE has the best KHelpCenter setup
<jjesse> yeah?
<jjesse> i haven't had time to do much
<LaserJock> I installed Fedora Core 6 last night
<nixternal> i just installed FC6, updating and then going to install KDE on it
<LaserJock> I like the installer (anaconda always looked slick to me) but that was about it
<nixternal> ya, anaconda is actually pretty nice nowadays
<LaserJock> that and the bootsplash
<nixternal> although, i liked yast2 in kde as well
<nixternal> i like the OpenSUSE grub splash..it is a Christmas theme with penguins in santa hats ice skating
<LaserJock> haha
<nixternal> i did the same thing
<LaserJock> I might try it this week
<nixternal> i had to sit and watch it
<jjesse> what do you think of kickoff?
<jjesse> i'm thinking of downloading it just for that
<nixternal> OpenSUSE + KDE is super fast, kickoff is nice just not practical
<nixternal> i don't like submenus
<nixternal> and there isn't katapult either
<jjesse>  hmm i'l;l have to try it tomorrow
<jjesse> time for dinner
<jjesse> i love katapult
<nixternal> mmm food
<jjesse> its what i miss the most
<nixternal> ya
<nixternal> im an alt+space junky
<nixternal> you hit alt+space in suse it brings up kerry beagle
#ubuntu-doc 2006-12-12
<MagicFab> what's the licence of content at https://help.ubuntu.com/community ? Like https://help.ubuntu.com/community/DialupModemHowto/ScanModem ?
<dsas_> MagicFab: funny subject. See https://wiki.ubuntu.com/WikiLicensing
<dsas_> hi david_corrales Are you having any luck with scrollkeeper?
<david_corrales> heya
<david_corrales> actually I got the advice I was looking for
<MagicFab> dsas, so it's currently *unlicensed* ???
<david_corrales> thanks for your interest :)
<MagicFab> (well, (C) Canonical)
<david_corrales> it was all about putting the docs inside /usr/share/gnome/help
<david_corrales> to get them available through ghelp:name
<dsas_> MagicFab: Theoretically it's copyright Canonical yes.
<MagicFab> !
<dsas_> MagicFab: At least as far as I understand, I've not had anything to do with the discussions... the spec drafters are your best bet...
<jjesse> i thought we were moving to cc-by-sa or something
<jjesse> i can't keep it striaght eitehr
<tonyyarusso> MagicFab: You get a glimpse of the headaches this is causing ;)
<tonyyarusso> jjesse: They're trying to straighten it out, yes.
<MagicFab> Well, I just came across a translation of those docs with a more restrictive licence
<MagicFab> I just assumed it was all GFDL !
<dsas_> jjesse: We are for the non-wiki docs, and I think it was/is intended to move the wiki docs to that license too
<jjesse> i just let mdke_ take care of the licensing ;)
<jjesse> i trust him
<jjesse> i know the docs got/are getting relecincesd to match the official ubuntu book
<dsas_> MagicFab: No-one ever stuck a license on the wiki. Hence all the problems it's causing, the "everything is owned by canonical" is something that's been thrown into the argument since I was last up to date with it.
<tonyyarusso> dsas_: The way I've heard it is that it legally belongs to the vague legal entity of "the doc team", but I dunno
<dsas_> tonyyarusso: That goes for the shipped docs, but not the wiki docs afaik
* dsas_ knows as little about this as everyone else
<tonyyarusso> Some of the wiki docs are the shipped docs though
<tonyyarusso> Clear as a whirlpool in a mudpuddle
* dsas_ shrugs
<dsas_> tonyyarusso: heh, exactly.
<dsas_> david_corrales: Cool, how are the jokosher docs coming along?
<MagicFab> Found the thread: https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-doc/2006-November/007322.html
<david_corrales> dsas_: well, I'm doing the final installation bits. Then, I'll have to tag the manual itself
<MagicFab> Seems the spec was not accepted for a sprint at UDS, so it's been delayed
<david_corrales> it needs updating and new secionts
<david_corrales> sections*
<dsas_> MagicFab: that thread is about the shipped docs (the ones not in h.u.c/community)
<MagicFab> huh
<dsas_> at least as I understand it...
<dsas_> MagicFab: There should be threads (and CC meeting logs) about the wiki licensing somewhere, though it's been going on for ages..
<jjesse> mdke_ has been working for a long time on licesnign the wiki
<jjesse> that's preety much all i know :)
<MagicFab> Aren't the shipped docs bases on the community docs ?
<jjesse> some of them are
<mdke_> morning
<Madpilot> hi mdke_
<LaserJock> hi mdke_
<somerville32> hi mdke_
<mdke_> how's it going?
<LaserJock> it's going :-)
<mdke_> good
<somerville32> :] 
* Starting logfile irclogs/ubuntu-doc.log
-ChanServ(ChanServ@services.)- [#ubuntu-server]  Ubuntu Server Discussions (development and support)
* Starting logfile irclogs/ubuntu-doc.log
<twosouls82> hi all :)
<willvdl> hi there
<twosouls82> I edited https://help.ubuntu.com/community/EdgyUpgrades
<twosouls82> can someone check it?
<twosouls82> I saved it a couple of times, my bad, sorry
<twosouls82> I edited because I had to use "sudo apt-get install --reinstall xserver-xorg" to get x working after upgrade instead of what was stated there
<tonyyarusso> What did it say before?  *curious*
<twosouls82> sudo apt-get install xserver-xorg, I left that notice below my edit ;)
<twosouls82> so you could revert
<tonyyarusso> Hmm.  I'm not familiar with the case in question, but seems to me 'sudo dpkg-reconfigure xserver-xorg' would be preferred to reinstalling.  Don't know though.
<twosouls82> tonyyarusso: true, that was below the reinstall option, so I moved it up one
<tonyyarusso> ah
<twosouls82> tonyyarusso: should I make it clearer that the reconfiguration is sufficient? (was on the phone)
<tonyyarusso> twosouls82: If one works for sure, simplify it to only that.  If it usually works, but the other may be necessary, say it like that.
<twosouls82> I will go for the last on e:)
<twosouls82> tonyyarusso: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/EdgyUpgrades
<twosouls82> fixed, finally, a lot of phone calls which I couldn't ignore
<twosouls82> grrr
<twosouls82> and I am not a multitasker
<tonyyarusso> twosouls82: Looks pretty good
<twosouls82> good
<twosouls82> merci tonyyarusso for the feedback
<twosouls82> btw, I am allowed to edit and add documentation? who coordinates this?
<twosouls82> I just did without asking =)
<tonyyarusso> That's basically how it works yes, although if you haven't done it much having folks look over your work is a great idea.  (There's also a doc-team mailing list you may be interested in)
<twosouls82> tonyyarusso: I am looking for a regulation on the docs, does it exist too?
<tonyyarusso> twosouls82: There's a Howto and guidelines, but I don't have the URLs handy
<tonyyarusso> I'd start at /DocumentationTeam
<twosouls82> np, I will Google harder now that I know it does exists
<twosouls82> kay
* twosouls82 found all he need at https://wiki.edubuntu.org/CategoryDocteam 's children
<tonyyarusso> yay
<twosouls82> s/need/needs/
<twosouls82> w00t w00t
<mihakriket> I am working on some of the wiki documents but I have a general question. The wiki documents are the purpose of the wiki to provide the user with a howto on the subject or where to find information on the subject?
<LaserJock> mihakriket: well, they could be a bit of both
<LaserJock> depends on the subject and how big it is
<theCore> LaserJock: hi
<LaserJock> sorry I missed the CC meeting, congrats
<somerville32> Hi
<theCore> LaserJock: thanks
<LaserJock> theCore: for some reason I thought the meeting was tomorrow
<mihakriket> I am working on a document in reguards to the commandline. I asked for feedback from people on features they would like to see in the document. My feedback I received had to do with BASH scripting. During my research on the subject, I found alot of already written guides.
<LaserJock> mihakriket: I think a bit of both would be good
<theCore> mihakriket: or the one doing the Advanced Command Line guide?
<LaserJock> like have a few common examples in the wiki and then link to "For more information try:"
<theCore> mihakriket: oh, yes it's you
<theCore> I'm the guy who sent the list of suggestions on the mailing list :)
<mihakriket> theCore: that is the reason why I asked the question, I wanted to get an idea of how to present the info.
<mihakriket> Oh, ok. Did you get my email back on that?
<theCore> mihakriket: yes
<theCore> mihakriket: Obviously, writing a such guide will be hard
<mihakriket> theCore: What did you think of the idea of having a seperate document on just BASH scripting?
<theCore> the biggest challenge is to make the guide easy to read, so people without much experience can understand the content
<theCore> mihakriket: I think you shouldn't cover BASH scripting
<theCore> there's a lot of good guides out there about Bash scripting
<theCore> you should really focus on the command line power tools
<theCore> so, it should focus on "being productive with the command line"
<mihakriket> That's what I was thinking too. I was going to use the suggestion about the different shells in a section.
<theCore> I loves Zsh
<LaserJock> I've seen a lot of bash scripting documentation
<LaserJock> it would be nice to have a "Command-Line Productivity" guide
<theCore> I think Bash scripting should be forbidden ...
<theCore> mihakriket: where will you write the document?
<mihakriket> I have added command line navagation, such as keystrokes as well as info on the history command. I was going to add a section about alias and env variables as well. I was going to remove the section on scripting.
<mihakriket> theCore: I am updating the current document in the wiki.
<theCore> URL?
<mihakriket> theCore: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/AdvancedCommandlineHowto?highlight=%28commandline%29
<theCore> thanks
<mihakriket> theCore: what do you think of the document?
<theCore> mihakriket: not bad. I need some structure, tough
<mihakriket> I have just started to edit the document, so I am just brain storming.
<theCore> mihakriket: have you seen: http://learnlinux.tsf.org.za/courses/build/shell-scripting/index.html ?
<mihakriket> theCore: thanks, I will look at the doc. I was thinking of removing the scripting portion of the doc, this was in their before I starting editing the doc.
<theCore> mihakriket: I'm writing something about shell globbing and regex
<mihakriket> theCore: I added a wildcard section in the CommandLine howto on the wiki. Maybe I can add a link to your document in the advance commandline doc?
<mihakriket> theCore: I was going to add a section about regex but I will not, no use in redundancy in the wiki.
<theCore> ?
<theCore> the wiki doesn't contain a regex guide...
<mihakriket> theCore: I was going to add a section on regex in the advance commandline doc. regex is used by some commands such as grep or awk correct?
<theCore> mostly grep
<theCore> not in AWK
<LaserJock> ?
<LaserJock> I think regex are used in awk, sed,  a lot of tools
<mihakriket> theCore: ok.
<mihakriket> LaeserJock: that was what I was thinking, I was just double checking on that as we speak.
<theCore> mihakriket: nevermind, awk uses regex
<theCore> just a very weird type of regex
<mihakriket> theCore: let me know when the document is completed, I will add a link in the Advanced commandline doc.
<theCore> mihakriket: ok
<nixternal> i will say this everyone, we are definitely better doc wise then our mother Debian
<nixternal> i have been scouring their docs today looking for some info, and it isn't that great
<willvdl> hey nixternal, I remember seeing a discussion on why docs are not in bzr but can't seem to locate it anymore.
<willvdl> any pointers?
<LaserJock> willvdl: why the ubuntu docs aren't?
<LaserJock> we had a dicussion at our last meeting and a little follow up on the mailing list
<mihakriket> nixternal: Do you mean the quality of the docs are the amount of docs?
<willvdl> LaserJock, ubuntu-docs etc. yeah
<willvdl> I'll check minutes and mailing list. I jsut rememebr _something_ on the wiki
<LaserJock> hmm
<willvdl> I'm grappling with the seperation of "release docs" and "dynamic docs"
<LaserJock> mhm
<willvdl> meaning e.g. About Ubuntu is a release doc.
<nixternal> mihakriket: both actually
<willvdl> it gets packaged and appears on CD, etc.
<nixternal> we have more info on pbuilder than debian does in our system docs (packaging guide) and definitely our wiki
<LaserJock> willvdl: what would be a dynamic doc? generally I would think of wiki pages as dynamic docs
<willvdl> and then dynamic docs appear on the wiki (or pilfered from forum)
<willvdl> LaserJock, yeah
<LaserJock> nixternal: it depends, they have much better policy documentation. We have better "guides"
<willvdl> but... some docs (or planned docs) are going to be dynamic
<willvdl> for example Edubuntu School Advocacy: needs to reflect releases but is also going to be constantly updates as marketing material
<LaserJock> yep
<LaserJock> I think you'll always have that to some degree
<willvdl> so where does one keep it?
<LaserJock> same place
<willvdl> not on the wiki and the svn is too release specific
<willvdl> so was wondering about bzr
<LaserJock> we use svn for it
<LaserJock> well, I'm not sure that bzr has an advantage over svn in that regard exactly
<LaserJock> it's more of the packaging and build structure
<willvdl> LaserJock, currently the svn contains ubuntu-doc
<willvdl> which gets packaged and shipped
<LaserJock> not all of it
<willvdl> good point
<LaserJock> you could have both release and dynamic docs in there
<LaserJock> you just branch and build for release docs
<LaserJock> while the dynamic docs are just built as needed
<willvdl> hmmm
<LaserJock> bzr might give you a more flexibilty
<willvdl> where would one put dynamic docs? in the trunk under seperate directory or seperate branch?
<LaserJock> doesn't matter
<willvdl> well, it's not really a branch per se
<LaserJock> to build the release docs we have Makefiles, you just don't build/install the dynamic ones
<LaserJock> for instance currently ESA isn't shipped
<LaserJock> so it's a dynamic doc in that sense
<willvdl> but it is built in the makefile
<LaserJock> not in any package
<LaserJock> so we build it for the website I believe
<willvdl> aha
<LaserJock> but it's not a release doc currently by your definition
<willvdl> right
<willvdl> even though ti uses the same makefile
<LaserJock> so it's more about how you build them then where you put them
<LaserJock> well, a single makefile can do many different things
<LaserJock> more importantly in this case is the packaging
<willvdl> okie. I need to read up on the reasoning behind bzr vs svn. imagine it's an interesting read
<willvdl> I see your point
<LaserJock> I think the bzr site has some interesting stuff
<willvdl> who does the packaging?
<LaserJock> well, generally mdke or I for ubunt-docs
<LaserJock> mostl Riddell for kubuntu-docs
<theCore> mihakriket: I think I'm done
<willvdl> and where is it tracked what is packaged?
<LaserJock> it's in the svn repo
<LaserJock> under debian/ and kubuntu/debian/
<willvdl> aha
<willvdl> does https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/feisty/+source/ubuntu-docs enter into it?
<LaserJock> well, that is the source package that get's uploaded
<LaserJock> it's a snapshot of the svn repo
<mihakriket> theCore: good deal. What is the url?
<theCore> mihakriket: I didn't uploaded yet
<theCore> just a sec
<willvdl> brill. LaserJock, thanks
<LaserJock> we'll have an edubuntu-docs package soon enough
<willvdl> cool.
<mihakriket> theCore: Are you posting the document into the wiki?
<LaserJock> we mostly just need to get enough content to replace ubuntu-docs
<willvdl> LaserJock, it gets tricky when some of our docs are essentially marketing stuff
<LaserJock> well, we can have release and dynamics docs side-by-side no problem
<willvdl> how is the automatic inclusion of ubuntu-doc material (for sake of reducing duplication) going to work?
<LaserJock> we won't
<willvdl> by hand then at snapshot time
<willvdl> until Topic-Based comes into effect
<LaserJock> well, what I'm saying is the idea is to totally replace the ubuntu-docs with edubuntu-docs
<theCore> mihakriket: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/ShellGlobbing
<willvdl> LaserJock, so edubuntu-doc being only value-add info
<LaserJock> edubuntu-doc being complete documentation for an Edubuntu system
<LaserJock> i.e. ubuntu-doc won't be installed
<willvdl> edubuntu being based on ubuntu, there is bound to be overlap of info
<LaserJock> yep
<LaserJock> but the idea was that the Edubuntu Handbook would be that
<LaserJock> perhaps we will need to copy over the Ubuntu desktopguide I'm not sure
<LaserJock> depends on how far along the handbook gets
<willvdl> LaserJock, it is bound to go that way
<willvdl> it is impractical for the handbook to cover edubuntu & base ubuntu info
<willvdl> impractical for the authors
<LaserJock> yeah, well ...
<LaserJock> we could install ubuntu-docs as well
<LaserJock> but then we start getting into space issues
<willvdl> not necessarily install ubuntu-doc
<willvdl> but at least pull sections
<LaserJock> it'll be some work, but doable
<willvdl> less work than rewriting
<LaserJock> somebody needs to lead some effort there ;-)
<willvdl> that's what I'm trying to do :)
<willvdl> but need to understand the history etc.
<LaserJock> I think pygi's original goal was to create a full-fledged Edubuntu book
<LaserJock> that would go to a publisher
<LaserJock> and be shipped as the complete Edubuntu documentation
<theCore> mihakriket: the foo, bar examples should be changed to "real world" examples
<willvdl> LaserJock, still the goal only we're going broader
<willvdl> we want to target specific audiences with specific information
<LaserJock> ok, so I think it'd be a wise thing to do to use the doc team for the release docs and non-marketing stuff
<willvdl> cbx33, jsut in time :)
<LaserJock> and then set up a bzr repo tied to an LP team for the marketing stuff
<willvdl> was my thinking
<cbx33> sounds good
<mihakriket> theCore: Where do you upload your docs? I have been editing docs on the wiki.
<cbx33> was what we were thinking right willvdl ?
<LaserJock> we've consistently had trouble getting Edubuntu people to contribute to the doc team
<willvdl> one way is to continue authoring of handbook as original goal
<willvdl> cbx33 yeah
<theCore> mihakriket: ^^
<theCore> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/ShellGlobbing
<willvdl> and then draw info from it for other purposes as needed.
<willvdl> LaserJock, this way I hope to leverage more contribution from the marketing team
<LaserJock> yeah, that would be good
<willvdl> and don't want to dilute the doc team too much
<willvdl> there is an edubuntu doc team
<LaserJock> IMO, there shouldn't be
<LaserJock> on LP anyway
<mihakriket> theCore: I saw the doc, I mean how do people upload docs to the help.ubuntu.com site?
<willvdl> exactly
<theCore> mihakriket: just invent your own url
<theCore> mihakriket: then, edit and post
<willvdl> in effect it appears, but we miss the boat by seperating from it
<LaserJock> the doc team has very good resources for documentation
<willvdl> and many reviewers
<LaserJock> and Edubuntu has kind of been the last team to get onboard
<willvdl> so keep LP doc team
<willvdl> with ubuntu-doc project
<willvdl> and edubuntu-doc as another product
<LaserJock> I'm not sure how it all works
<cbx33> ;)
<LaserJock> but the issue is less with LP and more with people
<willvdl> LaserJock, spent an hour with salgado :)
<LaserJock> with Kubuntu, the doc guys are a part of the doc team
<willvdl> but it still needs to be tracked with minimum effort
<cbx33> totally
<willvdl> so intelligent use of LP and wiki is key
<LaserJock> we just need people working and joining the team, I really have had a hard time understanding why Edubuntu people seem to not get that
<cbx33> :( - I have to get off to bed now....
<cbx33> up in about 6 hours
<willvdl> cbx33, up in 5 hours :P
<cbx33> please please willvdl could you send me a quick mail about what we decide ;)
<cbx33> then I'll get it fleshed out for the summary page ;)
<willvdl> cbx33, will do and check ubuntu-doc logs tomorrow
<willvdl> LaserJock, technical docs are always tedious
<willvdl> but I think we can curry favour on the marketing side
<LaserJock> well, we get people and then nothing happens
<LaserJock> that's been my issue
<LaserJock> they need to be joining the doc team and getting involved
<willvdl> well, our community is smaller
<LaserJock> what I'm saying is don't think of it as edubuntu docs
<willvdl> LaserJock, was suggesting to cbx33 an open letter - call for contributions to doc-team community
<LaserJock> but as ubuntu doc people working on edubuntu
<willvdl> LaserJock, that's been my take since the beginning
<mihakriket> theCore: How do create a url?
<LaserJock> I think that's what we've missed for a while
<willvdl> I'm slowly populating the doc team wiki with edubuntu references
<dsas> mihakriket: Just type it in your browsers address bar
<willvdl> and eventually specs into LP
<dsas> mihakriket: Or you can create a link using [:PageName: page name]  syntax
<LaserJock> what seems to happen is a few people get all excited but they just stay a closed little team
<cbx33> nn
<cbx33> see ya willvdl and LaserJock
<willvdl> nn
<willvdl> LaserJock, I'm here to try and track/manage that.
<LaserJock> yeah
<LaserJock> I'm glad you're here :-)
<willvdl> won't have time to author much unfortunately
<willvdl> which I'd like since I've done a looot of that in the past
<LaserJock> I guess what I'm saying is that the biggest problem from my standpoint is not a technological one, but a social one
<willvdl> I hear you
<LaserJock> we have everything in place for an edubuntu doc team
<LaserJock> we just need people to join and work
<LaserJock> instead of wandering off trying to reinvent the wheel
<willvdl> well, lemme look deeper at LP, maybe we can keep the edubuntu doc SUB-team
<LaserJock> so I think if you can push people toward the doc team
<LaserJock> perhaps
<willvdl> and move subscriptions up
<LaserJock> but you can do the whole thing without LP if you want
<willvdl> actually, nah, still makes no sense
<LaserJock> I think the an edubuntu-marketing team might be better to house the marketing stuff
<willvdl> LaserJock, LP works nicely for bugs, reviewing, proofing etc.
#ubuntu-doc 2006-12-13
<LaserJock> willvdl: yes, but we already have that
<cbx33> listening.....
<willvdl> :)
<cbx33> in bed.....
<theCore> when is the next docteam meeting?
<LaserJock> whenever we schedule one
<theCore> ah, ok
<willvdl> LaserJock, again an edubuntu marketing team jsut dilutes the current one
<LaserJock> willvdl: there is no kubuntu-doc team on LP
<cbx33> hmmm.....
<willvdl> agreed on that point: edubuntu-doc team is dilution
<LaserJock> well, but it serves a purpose if you use it to house the marketing docs in bzr
<cbx33> agreed
<LaserJock> I can see creating edubuntu-* if it is actually doing something
<willvdl> well, no reason why that can't be done out of ubuntu-marketing either
<cbx33> also helps with organization
<LaserJock> perhaps, you'd have to talk with them about it
<LaserJock> anyway, if you look at Kubuntu
<willvdl> exactly
<LaserJock> who is quite a bit more different than Ubuntu then Edubuntu is
<LaserJock> they have a rocking doc team
<LaserJock> and I think a lot of it has to do with not trying to split everything up
<willvdl> agreed. no splitting :)
<cbx33> ;)
<willvdl> instead of creating new sub-teams, rather create spec/features that certain folk can subscribe too
<LaserJock> so all that really needs to be done is getting people excited about joining the doc team
<willvdl> and the other way around
<willvdl> getting doc team excited about helping edubuntu :] 
<LaserJock> well, we have been
<LaserJock> consistently
<willvdl> I know
<cbx33> laserjock, are we using svn/bzr?
<LaserJock> and I've felt like Edubuntu has snubbed them time after time
<willvdl> working on it.
<LaserJock> I know it's not intentional, but it gets a little old waving our hands saying "We're here and we want to help!" and nobody shows up
<LaserJock> Mattew East even wrote an Edubuntu css for the docs
<LaserJock> I said I'm always willing to commit things
<LaserJock> nixternal has been fixing xml and maintaining a branch of the handbook
<willvdl> yeah, he's helped me quite a bit
<LaserJock> so I'm not trying to be down on you at all
<willvdl> what about more svn access?
<LaserJock> I've just been a bit frustrated for the last 9 months because I want to see Edubuntu docs rock but I'm not really in a position to write them myself
<cbx33> could i get svn access?
<LaserJock> sure
<LaserJock> svn access is not an issue
<willvdl> cool
<LaserJock> all we ask is that the person be an edubuntu member and show that they can "play nice" with the XML
<cbx33> it was...but cool...that it isn't now
<LaserJock> basically show you are a part of the team and send in some patches
<cbx33> ok.....how do iget myself on the lst
<LaserJock> Mark helped us out there
<cbx33> i sent loads of patches in dapper
<LaserJock> we did have quite a bit of a hard time getting new people added as elmo was very very busy
<LaserJock> but that's "fixed" now
<willvdl> LaserJock, we can continue the doc discussion in the meeting tomorrow.
<LaserJock> yep, but honestly, we welcome people to come
<LaserJock> but generally nobody shows up
<LaserJock> willvdl: unfortunately the Edubuntu meeting is 4:00am for me
<LaserJock> I doubt I'll make it
<nixternal> edubuntu meeting is at 6am here tomorrow, which is 4am for LaserJock  ;(
<willvdl> urk. it's 1:30 am now for me :)
<nixternal> if i am up at 6am, i will kill myself
<LaserJock> anyway
<LaserJock> I would just say that the doc team is eager to see action on the Edubuntu front
<willvdl> yes. I get the picture about the repo which is great.
<LaserJock> and I personally will do whatever I can to help
<cbx33> get me svn ;)
<LaserJock> ok
<LaserJock> I'll talk to mdke about it tomorrow
<cbx33> cool
<LaserJock> I know you can do valid docbook
<willvdl> RichEd wants some targeted marketing stuff (as mentioned above) which we'll all plan around still
<LaserJock> yeah, what I can see is some differentiation there
<willvdl> and we'll rally contributions for the handbook which will be the mothership of info
<cbx33> it's getting much more urgent now
<theCore> LaserJock: can I do valid docbook?
<theCore> :P
<LaserJock> theCore: most of the time ;-)
<theCore> haha
<LaserJock> willvdl: I would just say if you can to promote joining the doc team as well as a particular doc
<nixternal> i can't, so don't feel bad
<LaserJock> sometimes people get a little overwhelmed
<cbx33> nn will
<LaserJock> nixternal: you just commit to the wrong branch ;p
<nixternal> lol
<willvdl> ciao cbx33
<nixternal> shush
<LaserJock> cya cbx33
<cbx33> i'm still here
<nixternal> lol
<cbx33> thought will was off
<willvdl> oh
<willvdl> almost
<LaserJock> anyway, I'm excited for you to take this on willvdl
<willvdl> I'm paid too :)
<cbx33> lucky
<LaserJock> I just wanted to "vent" some of my frustrations with Edubuntu docs over the last 9months
<willvdl> no worries. I need to know realities
<cbx33> right i really am out now.....
<cbx33> shattered
<willvdl> likewise
<LaserJock> good night guys
<willvdl> cbx33, I'll try to follow up in the morning or else I'll have to pick things up again tomorrow night
<LaserJock> have a good meeting tomorrow
<cbx33>  ok
<cbx33> nn
<willvdl> LaserJock, thanks for your help
<PriceChild> Hey there all..
<LaserJock> willvdl: np
<LaserJock> hi PriceChild
<PriceChild> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/BerylOnEdgy needs its repositories and gpg key loaction changing... but it says not to edit it
<PriceChild> What should I do? :)
<willvdl> LaserJock, wiki needs lots of maintenance too. working on that slowly
<LaserJock> mhm
<LaserJock> I'm trying to work on the MOTU wiki
<LaserJock> I feel the pain
<nixternal> i need to go through and rip out pieces of the Ubuntu Documentation that will pertain directly to the Edubuntu Standalone section for sure
<PriceChild> Anyone got any ideas for me before I just go ahead and edit the things?
<LaserJock> PriceChild: well, I'm not sure, it's also got some pretty plain issues
<willvdl> I'm trying to remove deprecated and confusing stuff
<nixternal> the Handbook needs a lot of writing to still be done, more goods and less smiley faces in the content. I went through and easily pulled out 100+ :) in between <para>...</para>
<willvdl> especially old planning and proposal pages
<LaserJock> PriceChild: if you are sure go ahead and edit it and then email the ubuntu-doc list
<LaserJock> nixternal: ugggg
<nixternal> hehe ya
<willvdl> do you know if https://wiki.edubuntu.org/EdubuntuDocumentation has current stff on it?
<PriceChild> LaserJock: Because I _know_ that the amd64 repo is incorrect... I run one of the beryl mirrors and that's wrong. Also that key is _definately_ out of date.
<nixternal> i didn't catch them until I built it, because it turned blue making me think it was &fjfldka;
<willvdl> nixternal, like switching to dvorak key layout by mistake
<nixternal> willvdl: https://wiki.edubuntu.org/EdubuntuHandbook  <- might want that listed there as well
<willvdl> hmmm, maybe I should rather use the CategoryCleanup idea rather. What's the status on that?
<nixternal> i had created https://wiki.edubuntu.org/EdubuntuHandbook/Management to manage the sections, in order to help those out that were running the project, but they like disappeared
<willvdl> the people or the section?
<nixternal> truthfully, i would rm -rf /*Handbook and start fresh, there is a lot of old info and unmaintained info...almost makes since to start fresh and take control from the beginning
<LaserJock> yeah
<PriceChild> LaserJock: Someone's messed that guide up... the Nvidia section's split in two for some reason and half will cause adverse affects instead of helping...
<LaserJock> PriceChild: yep, I'd email the list
<willvdl> nixternal, was hoping you'd say that
<nixternal> good ol https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BerylOfCrap
<LaserJock> nixternal: so is section 1 and 2 pretty much done?
<willvdl> nearly had a heart-attack - thought that was a valid link :)
<PriceChild> hmm... do I have to sign up for the doc mailing list to send a message...?
<nixternal> lol
<nixternal> LaserJock: section 1 and 2 of what? the handbook?
<LaserJock> yeah
<willvdl> PriceChild, to avoid the moderation queue, yip
<nixternal> oh no, they are half done at least, the ltsp portion definitely has the most content right now
<nixternal> i need to take a day and just write, as it seems we aren't ready for the topic based stuff just yet
<nixternal> need to start writing a new Kubuntu Desktop Guide as well. the current is stale and ugly to me
<LaserJock> hmm
<nixternal> especially after researching the other distros documentation, it needs a lot of love
<LaserJock> it does look like basically ESA + LTSP docs
<LaserJock> nixternal: which distros?
<LaserJock> opensuse?
<PriceChild> willvdl: what's the email? I'd rather send it into the queue as I can't stand the mail
<LaserJock> PriceChild: lists.ubuntu.com
<LaserJock> willvdl: btw, Kubuntu docs are under https://launchpad.net/products/ubuntu-doc too
<willvdl> hmmm
<willvdl> ok, outa here. LaserJock, I'll look into intelligent use of LP for all of this, bounce it off at the meeting and take it from there
<nixternal> LaserJock: OpenSUSE, FC, Gentoo, Slackware, and more
<LaserJock> willvdl: ok, good luck. I look forward to reading the meeting logs
<willvdl> and use the wiki for LP spec tracing which is what it is _meant_ for
<LaserJock> nixternal: and who's docs did you like the best? :-)
<nixternal> OpenSUSE w/o a doubt
<LaserJock> willvdl: mhm
<willvdl> steal them :)
<willvdl> steal them all
<nixternal> Gentoo has some really nice docs as well
<nixternal> their OS is garbage, but their docs are great
<willvdl> right. really leaving this time
<willvdl> g'night
* PriceChild liked gentoo
<LaserJock> nixternal: heh, I thought the OS was good but the docs not so much
<nixternal> you thought gentoo was good?
<nixternal> the gentoo docs and wiki are fairly elaborate..very well maintained
<LaserJock> I ran Gentoo for over 2 years
<LaserJock> dang, I'm getting the OpenSuse DVD at 4M/s
<nixternal> i think my longest running use of a Linux OS was probably Slackware, with SuSE and Debian a close 2nd
<LaserJock> I've never installed Slackware once
<LaserJock> not sure why, just never did
<nixternal> Slackware is fun, as you do all of the work, definitely not a newb friendly system
<LaserJock> my order by longest using is Gentoo, Ubuntu, SuSE
<nixternal> heh, you just started with SuSE didn't you?
<LaserJock> I've never run Debian on a desktop machine
<LaserJock> nah, I ran SuSE between Gentoo and Ubuntu
<nixternal> desktop it was always Slackware and SuSE pretty much, I ran Debian for servers, and then for a few years ran Debian as a KDE dev desktop
<LaserJock> right now Novell is the biggest reason I don't do much with suse
<LaserJock> otherwise it seems like a really good distro
<LaserJock> well, if I can get around that whole .rpm business ;-)
<nixternal> ya
<nixternal> im not used to rpms anymore either
<LaserJock> well, I'm to the point where not being able to build a source package is sort of scary
<LaserJock> nixternal: I got the 3.6GB OpenSuse DVD .iso in 16 min. ;-)
<nixternal> nice
<LaserJock> I love uni connections
<nixternal> i like the Mepis Doc Project wiki layout for a front page that they have.
<Burgwork> lets steal it
<Burgwork> :)
<nixternal> muhehe
<nixternal> http://www.mepis.org/docs/en/index.php/Main_Page
<Burgwork> I like the boxes, but the content inside the boxes doesn't grab me
<nixternal> topically broken down, however their documentation isn't great
<nixternal> MEPIS supports a lot of hardware out-of-the-box. There is no need to download or install extra drivers. Most hardware will just work....
<nixternal> Unfortunately even though most hardware will work, not all hardware will work
<nixternal> if i was a dog, i would be chasing my tail right now
<nixternal> Burgwork: i do see what you mean, Devices and General Knowledge Db both contain "hardware"...it is a little silly, but i like the fact everything is linked, big letters, and no scrolling to findi t (fluidity)
<Burgwork> yep
<Admiral_Chicago> nixternal: Bug #75549
<Ubugtu> Malone bug 75549 in apt "Cannot upgrade Dapper->Edgy without update-manager" [Undecided,Unconfirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/75549
<Admiral_Chicago> what is your take on this, I'm not sure what to do with it
<LaserJock> well, it seems logical that would should say something about server installs
<nixternal> definitely a very valid point
<Admiral_Chicago> LaserJock: i thought so, will the doc be updated soon? i'll bookmark the bug
<nixternal> i do it the "unreliable" way for every machine...editing source.list and doing the dist-upgrade
<nixternal> hasn't broke yet for me
<Admiral_Chicago> nixternal: as do I
<nixternal> that is a wiki page, he can edit it or you can edit, or anyone can edit it to do the apt-get way for servers
<LaserJock> well, we are encouraging people to use update-manager
<Admiral_Chicago> not sure how you do it really. i don't think he does either
<LaserJock> but the language should say something about server installs
<Admiral_Chicago> so editing the sources would be the way to go for servers?
<LaserJock> I'm not sure what Canonical/devs want to do
<nixternal> sudo mv sources.list sources && sed -e 's/edgy/feisty/' sources | sudo tee -a sources.list && sudo rm sources
<nixternal> that will provide him the sources.list to update, and then he can sudo apt-get update && sudo apt-get dist-upgrade from there
<nixternal> im sure there is a shorter way of doing the first line, i just can't remember, plus im a lil busy ;p
<LaserJock> well, but the point isn't how so much
<LaserJock> but what are we as a project supporting
<Admiral_Chicago> okay i'll just edit the page
<nixternal> http://www.elfyourself.com/?userid=5692c75673810380ba8999dG06121216
<nixternal> gahahahahahaha
<nixternal> my x-wife just sent that to me
<LaserJock> Admiral_Chicago: maybe you should email the list
<Admiral_Chicago> LaserJock: the doc list or the dev list?
<LaserJock> doc first
<Admiral_Chicago> okay will do.
<tonyyarusso> Oh dear.
<tonyyarusso> (See Mailing List)
<Admiral_Chicago> tonyyarusso: yea it's a good question, (i sent it)
<tonyyarusso> So Matthew Flaschen asked something, and Matthew Nuzum forwarded it to the doc team, where Matthew East will answer.  :P
<tonyyarusso> Admiral_Chicago: I'm just amused  by the names ;)
<tonyyarusso> But yes, the overall question does need to be addressed too
<Burgundavia> mdke_: ping
<mdke_> Burgundavia: pong
<rob> hi mdke_
<mdke_> hi rob
<Burgundavia> mdke_: got a UWN 24 article in the queu for the firdge
<mdke_> ah
<mdke_> ok
<mdke_> Burgundavia: approved
<Burgundavia> sweet
<mdke_> good job
<somerville32> mdke_: ping
<mdke> somerville32: just ask
<somerville32> mdke: Can you add two reoccurring monthly event on the fridge calendar, Wednesday @ 2200 UTC and Saturday @ 1500 UTC titled "Xubuntu Developer Team Meeting" with a link to the agenda at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Meetings
<somerville32> *events
<somerville32> Thanks.
<mdke> somerville32: can you email them to fridge-devel@lists.ubuntu.com please?
<mdke> if not, I can email them
<somerville32> Done.
<somerville32> :] 
<mdke> thanks
<willvdl> morning all
<mdke> morning willvdl
<Ubugtu> New bug: #75542 in ubuntu-doc "Diagrams missing in PostfixBasicSetupHowto" [Wishlist,Confirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/75542
<willvdl> mdke, can we add release series to https://launchpad.net/products/distro-about-page etc?
<mdke> willvdl: well, it's all a bit confused: we have a general ubuntu-doc product that we use for most launchpad activity (bug tracking), and of course there is distros/ubuntu/+source/ubuntu-docs. That product you mention isn't really used.
<mdke> mpt registered it, maybe he can tell you more about *why* he did so
<willvdl> ok, I'll ask him
<willvdl> I'm trying to get edubuntu "back in the fol" so am looking at launchpad, wiki.e.o, wiki.u.c and help.u.c
<willvdl> s/fol/fold/
<mdke> sure
<mdke> I think probably the best thing to do is to use the LP ubuntu-doc product. we can discuss it on the mailing list and see what people think
<willvdl> yeah, we cahtted about that in here last night
<willvdl> want to bring edubuntu-docs into ubuntu-doc(just like kubuntu-doc) so as not to dilute the doc-team
<willvdl> but at the same time, some of our stuff is "marketing" related so we want to put it in svn but not package for release in ubuntu-doc necessarily
<mdke> certainly
<mdke> like the school-advocacy document
<willvdl> although what I'm not sure about is if "kubuntu-doc" or "edubuntu-doc" will end up being seperate products
<mdke> yeah, I see. I can see a much more powerful argument for that than to have a separate product for each document
<willvdl> it just brings up the question of duplication since edubuntu is built on ubuntu
<mdke> but again, if they are in the same repository, something tells me it should be the same product
<willvdl> well, there's stuff in the repo that is not part of the product so...
<mdke> well, the idea is that you register the repository with the product
<willvdl> as a branch? or as a subdirectory in trunk?
<mdke> https://launchpad.net/products/ubuntu-doc/trunk
<mdke> or as a branch, whatever is applicable
<mdke> confusingly, that product has "main" and "trunk", which appear to be the same
<willvdl> don't like the branch idea. not sure it's technically correct
<mdke> you'll see we don't really think about this much
<willvdl> :)
<willvdl> should we add edgy/dapper releases to above product?
<mdke> well, dapper is there. We should add Edgy
<mdke> (I think)
<willvdl> I can do if ok with you. want to add more edubuntu stuff here and there anyway...
<mdke> I'm not sure you have the right permissions
<willvdl> probably not
<mdke> alright, done
<willvdl> thanks
<mdke> I've added the relevant branch in our repository as the code, you don't think that's correct?
<willvdl> not with you?
<mdke> 08:38:45 < willvdl> don't like the branch idea. not sure it's technically correct
<mdke> https://launchpad.net/products/ubuntu-doc/edgy
<willvdl> as I understand, a branch is a parallel effort
<willvdl> whereas a tag is a snapshot
<mdke> right, but we sometimes update our branches after branching or even after release
<mdke> like by fixing critical bugs, or importing new translations
<willvdl> good point
* mdke notes the time, runs for the shower
<willvdl> no you're right. branch is right
<Kamping_Kaiser> what licence is the doco released under? i seem to remember it was a CC+GFDL licence, but i just want to check
<rob> just CC now iirc
<Kamping_Kaiser> share alike?
<Kamping_Kaiser> wonder if it says on the wiki...hm.
<rob> by SA
<rob> yep
<Kamping_Kaiser> thanks.
<rob> This document is made available under a dual license strategy that includes the GNU Free Documentation License (GFDL) and the Creative Commons ShareAlike 2.0 License (CC-BY-SA).
<rob> that's for edgy, for feisty its just the CC license iirc
<Admiral_Chicago> blah i don't like CC, not to start a license flame wor
<rob> Admiral_Chicago: there was quite a bit of debate about it on the mailing list
<Kamping_Kaiser> Admiral_Chicago, we dont have anything better. :\
<Admiral_Chicago> Kamping_Kaiser: i'd just go for GNU, I think CC is too much "Protect some of the author's rights"
<rob> by having only one licence we can get material from other compatible license works and use them, with the dual license set up we couldn't from either
<Kamping_Kaiser> Admiral_Chicago, there isnt a good gnu doco/arwork licence though.
<rob> yep, to a point
<Admiral_Chicago> that is true, for both those points
<rob> wikipedia is gfdl isn't it?
* Kamping_Kaiser goes to figure out the best way to get an svn of dappers doco without the extra stuff
<Kamping_Kaiser> iirc yes
<rob> hmm, should be a branch for dapper I think in svn
<Kamping_Kaiser> only 5 files in my svn checkout with 'dapper' in the name, all images :/
<rob> hmm, talk to mdke later about it then
<Kamping_Kaiser> ok. i'll try and catch him
<Kamping_Kaiser> thanks :)
<Kamping_Kaiser> mdke, you about yet?
* Kamping_Kaiser will try and hang around another 30 min.
<Kamping_Kaiser> gnight all
<Kamping_Kaiser> i'll try and catch you another time mdk
<nixternal> hola LaserJock
<LaserJock> hi nixternal
<LaserJock> oh geeze, this wiki license thing is sure a pain
<Burgwork> I am ignoring it
<mdke> Kamping_Kaiser: what's up?
<mdke> Kamping_Kaiser: ah, I see the scrollback. It's at https://docteam.ubuntu.com/repos/branches/dapper
#ubuntu-doc 2006-12-14
<Kamping_Kaiser> thanks mdke
<nixternal> oh wow, I am totally in disbelief about the Ubuntu Forums
<nixternal> i cannot believe this, they want their own CC or what not, they consider themselves the office ubuntu forums, however they have the power to temporarily lock a thread in order to transfer the information to the UDSF database
<Madpilot> nixternal, the forums have always been their own little universe...
<nixternal> well, they just fell below Gentoo on my useless heirarchy
<nixternal> they are pushing windows
<Madpilot> nixternal, huh?
<nixternal> being crazy
<nixternal> playing on the new lappy
* mdke moins
<Kamping_Kaiser> hi
<somerville32> mdke: Is there anyone leading the Xubuntu documentation effort? Or any contacts?
<Kamping_Kaiser> mdke, can i get just dapper doco from svn, or do i have to wget -mnp it from the web?
<mdke> somerville32: well, there is only one contributor. Called luzi
<mdke> Kamping_Kaiser: yes, "svn checkout url"
<Kamping_Kaiser> mdke, thanks.
<somerville32> mdke: Someone else will be able to commit if I send in patches, right?
<mdke> somerville32: yes
<mdke> would be good to get some more contribution
<somerville32> How many patches would I have to send in before I could get svn access?
<Kamping_Kaiser> are the dirs like this: UbuntuDapperDocsSVN/ubuntu/desktopguide/ja localised versions?
<mdke> somerville32: not many, enough to show you can write English and won't commit anything that breaks
<mdke> somerville32: but sending patches is a pretty effective way to contribute already
<mdke> Kamping_Kaiser: yes
<Kamping_Kaiser> ta
<somerville32> mdke: Should I use the stuff at http://docs.ubuntu.com/xubuntu or pull ro from svn?
<mdke> somerville32: get it from svn and use "svn diff" as described on our wiki pages. The documentation on doc.ubuntu.com is not the source
<mdke> somerville32: definitely read our wiki pages, they describe how to ensure what you send is valid docbook, that's very important too
* somerville32 nods.
<mdke> see you later
<somerville32> Thanks :] 
<somerville32> Gak
<somerville32> This Xubuntu documentation needs a lot of work.
<LaserJock> mdke: ping
<mdke> LaserJock: hi?
<LaserJock> mdke: I'd like to request svn access for Pete Savage (cbx33)
<LaserJock> he worked with me on some Edubuntu docs
<LaserJock> he's an Ubuntu member and MOTU and sent several patches to the mailing list
<mdke> I don't remember the patches, were they ok?
<LaserJock> I'm pretty sure, let me just check my emails real quick
<LaserJock> yep, he's a pretty good writer and does docbook fine. He wants to get cracking on Edubuntu stuff again
<mdke> ok
<LaserJock> I think there will be some more people in the future wanting to get access
<LaserJock> but they need to send patches first
<mdke> good news
<LaserJock> willvdl is working on heading up Edubuntu docs as a part of his employment
<mdke> working on? I thought he *is*
<LaserJock> well yeah
<willvdl> that would be contrary to open development :)
<LaserJock> well, where I come from we'd say he's "riding herd" on Edubuntu docs
<LaserJock> ;-)
<willvdl> I'm trying to get the ball rolling again in tune with UDP movements. In a month I'm going to be sweating in Nigeria so my time is short
<mdke> how long are you in Nigeria?
<willvdl> not sure yet.
<willvdl> probably only two weeks
<mdke> ah
<willvdl> but then I'm in Argentina for March
<mdke> blimey
<mdke> rockstar stuff
<willvdl> nothing glamorous about his work :)
<willvdl> *this
<willvdl> trust me
<LaserJock> mdke: are you ok to request svn access for cbx33 or should I do it? I'm not sure if they'd listen to me :-)
<mdke> I don't mind
<mdke> LaserJock: so what's the verdict? am I requesting, or are you?
<LaserJock> you are :-)
<mdke> ok
<mdke> LaserJock: Pete Savage/cbx33 has no search results on launchpad. Can you tell me his LP name, and ask him to remedy that?
<mdke> ah, forget the first bit of that
<LaserJock> yeah, he's hard to find on LP
<LaserJock> mdke: got it now?
<mdke> yes, but still.
<LaserJock> but still what?
<mdke> but still, he should fix it
<mdke> btw LaserJock, willvdl: http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=317786
<LaserJock> what is there to "fix" he can't just change his LP id I don't think
<mdke> LaserJock: he could use his real name
<mdke> instead of a joined up name
<LaserJock> ohhh, on Display Name
<LaserJock> I got it
<mdke> to be fair,  a search on "savage" doesn't even turn him up, which must be launchpad's fault
<willvdl> mdke, ogra will be pleased :)
<LaserJock> that's what I've always assumed
<mdke> willvdl: or horrified, one or the other
<willvdl> https://launchpad.net/people/petesavage
<mdke> yeah, I found it from his wiki page
<LaserJock> I always go to one of the teams he's on
<LaserJock> but then I already know what teams he's on
<mdke> only 2 clicks required to fix it
<LaserJock> I've got him
<LaserJock> gimme a min
<LaserJock> mdke: done
<mdke> also, we should go through LP and enforce a "LP username = irc handle" rule
<LaserJock> bah
<LaserJock> make LP search for IRC nick
<mdke> I tried that.
<mdke> and failed. So now, the hard approach
<willvdl> mdke, not everyone on LP is on irc
<mdke> willvdl: we'll enforce that too
<LaserJock> hehe
<LaserJock> well I'm not changing my @ubuntu.com just for you ;-p
<mdke> isn't irc supposed to be done through launchpad anyway?
<willvdl> I work with many people who cannot use irc...firewalls etc.
<willvdl> you mean channel maintenance?
<LaserJock> mdke: hmm? IRC and LP are orthogonal I believe
<mdke> I'm just joking around
<LaserJock> I see
<mdke> don't you get the "orthogonal" bug too
<LaserJock> well in my case I had an LP account before I had an IRC nick
<LaserJock> I suppose I could change my nick
<willvdl> sigh, my humour is fading with my fatigue.
<willvdl> outahere
<LaserJock> but then I'd have to buy another domain :-)
<mdke> willvdl: probably mine is at fault here
<LaserJock> cya willvdl
<LaserJock> I wondered ... silly brits
<LaserJock> mdke: why the heck does Novell have Edubuntu docs
<LaserJock> weird
<mdke> no idea
* mdke beds
<LaserJock> cya
#ubuntu-doc 2006-12-15
<nixternal> [   willvdl]  mdke, not everyone on LP is on irc
<nixternal> [      mdke]  willvdl: we'll enforce that too
<nixternal> hahahahahahahaha
<jsgotangco> ah
<willvdl> Burgwork, ping
<willvdl> should https://help.ubuntu.com/community/WikiTeam not rather be housed on wiki.u.c?
<willvdl> nixternal, ping
<nixternal> willvdl: pong?
<willvdl> hi. jsut copying link
<willvdl> I linked some teams in LP
<willvdl> and then realised that it would affect membership of ubuntu-doc team
<willvdl> is that a problem necessarily?
<nixternal> well, if it effected membership i would think it would be a problem, however right now the ubuntu-doc team on lp pretty much tracks members
<nixternal> but if it ever comes down to using bazaar then yes it would possibly be an issue, however that is up to mdke to choose i believe
<willvdl> cool. I made the edubuntu-website team link to edubuntu-doc team
<willvdl> like the wiki team links to the doc-team
<nixternal> ya, that is cool
<nixternal> that isn't going to effect memberships
<willvdl> also, there is an ubuntu-website-editors team for bug reporting
<willvdl> do you think we should make sure an edubuntu website guy is added, or is this not necessary
<nixternal> i tought there was an edubuntu website guy, but i don't know much about that
<willvdl> ah, thought you were on that. I guess it's not really necessary as it's merely a team for catching and dispatching bugs
<nixternal> nah, i don't think im on any website teams afik
<willvdl> cool. thanks.
<nixternal> no problem
<willvdl> next week we'll hopefully be integrated properly into doc-team.
<nixternal> i am editing, by hand, tags that didn't make it through mp3,m4a,aac >> ogg :(
<nixternal> that would rock!
<willvdl> right now it's weekend and it's been a loong week
<nixternal> tell me about it...i have one more final and the semester is out until january 22, 2006 YAY \o/
<willvdl> christmas party about to start. They have moved in a bar onto the lawn. oh yes
<nixternal> lol
<nixternal> heh, someone needs to run 'sa-update' on the ML server already
<mr_pouit> !seen Burgundavia
#ubuntu-doc 2006-12-16
<Admiral_Chicago> nixternal: ping in this channel
<nixternal> yo yo
<nixternal> pong in that channel
<Admiral_Chicago> there is a missing doc page that we need to do
<Admiral_Chicago> it's pretty critical imo
<Admiral_Chicago> i've needed it bofer
<Admiral_Chicago> let me get the link...
<nixternal> please don't say the "modem" section or a more detailed networking section
<Admiral_Chicago> no way
<Admiral_Chicago> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/DebuggingHardwareDetection
<nixternal> heh, get the devs on it
<Admiral_Chicago> the sound devs?
<nixternal> well, anyone dealing specifically with hardware
<nixternal> sound, video, you name it
<nixternal> video detection is pretty much straight forward, sound has always been a silly tricky one for me in the past
<Admiral_Chicago> can I just email the list?
<nixternal> wifi will continue being an issue, as we aren't catching up quick enough
<nixternal> you can start it, but if you do i would recommend maybe hitting up the dev lists asking for help
<Admiral_Chicago> hold on a suc
<Admiral_Chicago> nixternal: ubuntu-devel@lists.ubuntu.com
<nixternal> wouldn't hurt
<Admiral_Chicago> okay
<Admiral_Chicago> i think i'm going to CC documentation team
<Admiral_Chicago> good idea
<Admiral_Chicago> ?
<nixternal> probably don't need to cc the doc team, unless you want to spark some creative writing interest
<Admiral_Chicago> err, too late.. ;\
<Admiral_Chicago> well someone can turn it down if it's not relevant
<nixternal> hehe
* nixternal beds
<nixternal> g'nite
<Admiral_Chicago> night
<mdke_> I suppose it may be time to merge that topic-based-help stuff into trunk. No one has objected. But then again, not many have commented either
<mpt> mdke_ or anyone, has Will Simpson's patch from December 11th been merged? It would be a shame if we lost a potential contributor because of a poor first experience
<mdke_> mpt: yes it has (did I forget to send the confirmation email to the list?). He's also asked me a couple of questions via private email, he seems keen
<mdke_> I applied it to the topic-based-help branch too
<mpt> ok, cool
<mdke_> I'm just merging that branch into trunk too, we've procrastinated too long over it. We can tidy it up later
<mdke_> god, is svn slow for everyone else?
<mdke_> what a pain
<mdke_> Seveas: wow, good job on the CC agenda page, if that was you.
<Seveas> mdke_, it was
<mdke_> nice
<mdke_> Seveas: is part of your job also chasing them for setting meeting times?
<Seveas> I consider it to be and I am already chasing
<mdke_> good, glad to hear that
<tonyyarusso> Anybody need a break?  Come play !teg
<Seveas> tonyyarusso, don't spam...
<tonyyarusso> fine..
<mdke_> especially without explaining what !teg is
<tonyyarusso> That would be why someone made a factoid.
<mdke_> that nonsense doesn't apply in here, you have to say what you mean
<tonyyarusso> all right.
<nixternal> mdke_: yes mine just locked up
<nixternal> svn that is
<linuxphotogeek> I'm having problem also
<linuxphotogeek> I get error 'Failed to add directory 'ubuntu': object of the same name already exists'
<nixternal> what are you trying to add the ubuntu directory to?
<linuxphotogeek> nothing! this is the output of svn up
<linuxphotogeek> just trying to do an update
<nixternal> try it again..you might have done an up during a commit possibly
<linuxphotogeek> I did get some updates to edubunutu and kubuntu
<mdke_> maybe I broke it with my messing around
<linuxphotogeek> still no joy
<nixternal> mdke_: i just did an up w/o any troubles
<linuxphotogeek> must be my problem
<nixternal> linuxphotogeek: you can blast the ubuntu directory and then do up again
<mdke_> yes, delete things that aren't working, and re-up them
<mdke_> nixternal: whenever I commit there is a 5 minute wait after transferring the data, do you get that?
<linuxphotogeek> Thanks! I'll try that
<mdke_> I don't know whether it is local or on the server-side
<nixternal> i just got that earlier with the edubuntu handbook fix
<nixternal> i think we may have committed at the same time possibly
<mdke_> no, I get it every time
<nixternal> ahhh
<nixternal> i committed just fine last night testing my commit rights on this computer
<nixternal> could be a hiccup maybe with the server right now
<mdke_> it's been like that for a while for me
<nixternal> so is the topic based help structure pretty much ready to be ported over to kubuntu?
<linuxphotogeek> Working as we speak - Updated to revision 3491
<linuxphotogeek> Thanks
<nixternal> good deal linuxphotogeek
* mdke_ commits again, to check
<mdke_> yeah, still the same delay
<nixternal> ya, i will hold off for a bit on committing stuff
<nixternal> hrmm
<nixternal> i did notice it though just a second ago
<linuxphotogeek> mdke_ There seems to be a problem with the directory tree now that I've updated
<linuxphotogeek> There is no 'desktopguide' directory in ubuntu
<mdke_> linuxphotogeek: go ahead
<mdke_> that's intentional...
<mdke_> see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/TopicBasedHelp
<linuxphotogeek> I've made a change and after a 'make dg' the change does not appear in ../build/ubuntu/desktopguide/C/index.html
<linuxphotogeek> Worked last time
<mdke_> yes, I haven't got around to fixing the build system
<mdke_> what change did you make?
<linuxphotogeek> working on bug https://launchpad.net/products/ubuntu-doc/+bug/62694
<Ubugtu> Malone bug 62694 in ubuntu-doc "Incorrect link to Scribus" [Undecided,Confirmed] 
<linuxphotogeek> Simple really
<linuxphotogeek> Ubugtu - are working on the same bug?
<mdke_> Ubugtu isn't real, he's a machine that tells you what a bug is about when you mention one
<mdke_> bug 1
<Ubugtu> Malone bug 1 in Ubuntu "Microsoft has a majority market share" [Critical,In progress]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/1
<mdke_> (see?)
<linuxphotogeek> Cool never seen that before.
<mdke_> if you do the correction in ubuntu/C/office/office.xml then you can do "yelp office.xml" to view your changes
<linuxphotogeek> When I check as you suggest the changes are included. So I'll send my patch.
<linuxphotogeek> The build worked for me last week
<linuxphotogeek> Got to run to book reading. I'll check back later
<linuxphotogeek> Thanks for your help
<mdke_> I'll try and fix the builds eventually
<mdke_> the changes have been very extreme so it will take a bit of time
<jsgotangco> hello
<mdke_> hi jsgotangco
<jsgotangco> hello mdke_ how have you been doing lately
<mdke_> jsgotangco: well thanks, if busy. You?
<jsgotangco> pretty busy at work as well
<jsgotangco> actually, extremely is a better term
* mdke_ nods
<jsgotangco> i guess its the price i have to pay working for a large company
<mdke_> ah
<nixternal> hiya jsgotangco!
<nixternal> are you ready for chicago yet?
<jsgotangco> im leaving on tusday
<nixternal> what dates are you in chicago for?
<jsgotangco> ill be there from the 20th till 28th i think
<nixternal> cool
<nixternal> it was warm the past coupld of days, but the cold is back
<nixternal> you get to come to the Bears crazed city
<jsgotangco> then go to madison till new year, then go back to chicago on the 2nd
<jsgotangco> ill just go online when i get there and ping you
<nixternal> cool..i will try and schedule a free day before i get my daughter
<jmantha> mdke: about?
<nixternal> ahh it is the jmantha
<jmantha> mwuahaha
<jmantha> nixternal: you looked at the new trunk yet?
<nixternal> does it have gold in it?
<nixternal> i have taken a brief look
<nixternal> i was waiting for mdke to finish his commits, then i was going to look it over and start kubuntu
<jmantha> according to his email the packaging is broken
<nixternal> for the time being it is
<nixternal> im sure we can fix that up so it isn't
<jmantha> yeah, I'm checking it out now
<nixternal> i just committed kubuntu/C/* starting the topic based help
<nixternal> only things not validating are xrefs, which can be pulled together after a bit
<nixternal> mdke: here we go, transmitting file data and it is taking forever
<nixternal> it seems the files get pushed to the repo as normal, but when it goes to pull the revision info it seems to stall
<mdke> jmantha: yes
<jmantha> mdke: yeah, just saw your email
<jmantha> mdke: what kind of breakage in packaging does the TBH create?
<jmantha> just need to install the files to the right places?
<mdke> yes
<mdke> I have fixed it all basically now
<mdke> maybe the occasional thing still broken
<jmantha> ah cool
<mdke> lots still to do though
<mdke> ubuntu/Makefile is still untouched
<jmantha> is the cron job set up now for doc.u.c?
<mdke> yes, it has been for serious numbers of months
<jmantha> well for a while it wasn't building
<jmantha> but I'm not sure if it was because of makefiles or what
<mdke> yes, that wasn't due to the cronjob though, it was due to the fact that the documents weren't building
<mdke> now, they certainly won't be :)
<jmantha> hmm
<jmantha> it's odd that they would just stop building
<mdke> not really
<jmantha> I think the packaging guide wasn't updates for a few months
<mdke> there are two really common reasons
<jmantha> s/updates/updated/
<mdke> a) someone does a commit which invalidates a document
<mdke> b) someone changes a document so that the Makefile doesn't work, or changes the Makefile itself so that it doesn't work
<jmantha> if 1 file is invalid does it kill that whole build or just that doc?
<mdke> it kills the whole of the build for the group of documents (groups are ubuntu, kubuntu, edubuntu, xubuntu)
<jmantha> hmm, I see
<jmantha> does it log somewhere?
<mdke> no, but you can see the error by trying the build
<jmantha> it'd be handy if we had some sort of status page
<mdke> aha. ssh is working again
<mdke> jmantha: I don't know how that would work. But feel free to dig around
<jmantha> yeah, I might think about that
<nixternal> jmantha: status page reading the status from the xml docs or an updated wiki status page?
<jmantha> a page that shows the last time the different areas of doc.u.c built and if not shows  an error message
<nixternal> ahh
<nixternal> hrmm..
<nixternal> have the cron job log to a file that is accessible via the web
<jmantha> well, or have the makefile spit something out to a file
<nixternal> well, it would be easier just to append    > /log/file.txt to the cron
<nixternal> i.e., 0 0 0 0 /path/to/Makefile /path/to/repo  > /path/to/log.txt
<jmantha> yeah, but I'm not sure if we want all of it, but maybe
<jmantha> the first thing would at least be a status of "What worked and what didn't"
<nixternal> hmm. well, get the makefile to log, and then create a script that will execute a tail -f on the log >> txt
<mdke> whoosh
<mdke> svn has felt my wrath today
<jmantha> heh
<jmantha> nixternal: do you use vmware at all?
<mpt> On "svn up" I get "svn: Failed to add directory 'ubuntu': object of the same name already exists"
<mpt> What do I do now? :-] 
<mdke> mpt: we had someone else report that too, I must have buggered it up. Can you rm -rf ubuntu/ and svn up again?
<mpt> ok
<mdke> sorry
<nixternal> LaserJock: yes
<nixternal> to vmware
<nixternal> hmm that is an odd error. i wonder why they got it? wonder what was different
<mdke> I removed the ubuntu directory with one commit, then added it with the next one, obviously svn didn't like it
<mdke> boh
<nixternal> ahh
#ubuntu-doc 2006-12-17
<mdke> I've uploaded an ubuntu-docs deb with the new topic based documents to http://doc.ubuntu.com/~matt/ Feedback/contributions would be great. Obviously the order doesn't work in yelp yet.
<nixternal> wow, you are workin' hardcore
<nixternal> thanks for sending out the email about fixing the breakage if it occurs. I didn't think about others that might have the same issues as well
<mdke> :)
<nixternal> i have pretty much all of the kubuntu docs merged over as well
<nixternal> i am going to work some more on it tonight, but fist, dinner calls!
<nixternal> goto bed mdke and thanks for getting the TBH rolling along!
<nixternal> oh wait, saturday night, nevermind, stay up and party the night away
<mdke> :)
<Admiral_Chicago> what does this page need for cleanup https://help.ubuntu.com/community/VMware
<LaserJock> perhaps there is a mess of vmware pages
<LaserJock> *perhaps because
<Admiral_Chicago> i'm looking at it, seems like it a bit more information really
<Admiral_Chicago> i think it was one of the pages that was autotagged with cleanup
<LaserJock> I just don't know what I'm doing wrong, it's so annoying
<LaserJock> I wonder if I should try the .rpm
<Admiral_Chicago> sudo dpkg-reconfigure vmware ?
<LaserJock> well, I'm doing the server right now
<LaserJock> for the player it fails
<LaserJock> I want vmware-server if I can
<Admiral_Chicago> fails how/
<LaserJock> if vmware-player would work I'd be willing to go with thtat
<LaserJock> the postinst dies
<Admiral_Chicago> ah, what kind of system?
<LaserJock> Edgy
<Admiral_Chicago> it worked on a buddy's 64 bit edgy system
<Admiral_Chicago> it it works on 4 bit it *should* work on any system
<LaserJock> yeah, well it *should* work
<LaserJock> I just seem blessed with bad luck sometimes with this stuff
<LaserJock> I never could get FreeNX to work either
<Admiral_Chicago> some things refuse to work for me too
<LaserJock> ok, I'll uninstall the server (hopefully) and try the player again
<Admiral_Chicago> do an aptitude purge
<Admiral_Chicago> that might help
<LaserJock> well, the server isn't install via .deb
<Admiral_Chicago> ah okay
<LaserJock> ok
<LaserJock> it fails when it's trying to set up networking
<LaserJock> now I can't get rid of it
<LaserJock> awesome
<Admiral_Chicago> damn
<Admiral_Chicago> you're having all kinds of issues
<Admiral_Chicago> well good luck. i'm going to study until we do the LoCo starts bug work
<LaserJock> ok, well vmware player started up
<Admiral_Chicago> good
<LaserJock> I wanted to get the server to make virtual machines
<LaserJock> but this'll do I think for now
<nixternal> LaserJock: vmware server runs like a champ, what issues are you having?
<LaserJock> nixternal: can't get it to start up
<nixternal> vmware server isn't in the repos, so purgng won't do anything
<nixternal> it is installed already?
<LaserJock> yeah, I installed it
<nixternal> has it run before?
<LaserJock> then ran vmware and it tells me it isn't configured right
<LaserJock> never tried it before
<LaserJock> so I reconfigured it like 3-4 times
<LaserJock> and I never saw it error
<nixternal> are you running vmware from the command line?
<LaserJock> yeah
<LaserJock> well, I tried it from the menu first
<LaserJock> but it didn't do anything
<LaserJock> so I used CLI
<LaserJock> and get the message to configure it again
<nixternal> did you try to reconfigure it?
<nixternal> sudo wmware-config.pl
<LaserJock> yeah, like 3-4 times
<nixternal> hmm..i have never had an issue after installing it
<nixternal> i had an issue not long ago where i did something to a directory that killed it
<LaserJock> yeah, well I'm just special it seems
<nixternal> hehe
<nixternal> i could have told you that :0
<nixternal> ;)
<LaserJock> well, the thing is it doesn't give me any errors
<LaserJock> the config runs fine
<nixternal> that is odd
<LaserJock> I'll see if the player works ok
<LaserJock> I'm sort of wondering if networking will work
<nixternal> i have never used the player, only workstation and server
<LaserJock> the init script gives a couple "failed" lines
<LaserJock> hmm, although I just reran it and it worked ok
<LaserJock> if I had any decent amount of space I'd just repartition this drive and do normal installs
<nixternal> heh, that is why i use vmware..i have a 60gb hard drive, and i just do a bunch of 4gb vmware-server installs
<LaserJock> I've only got about 8GB left
<nixternal> thats more than enough
<nixternal> ;p
<LaserJock> nixternal: is it really easy to create new .vmx files with vmware-server?
<nixternal> ya, you just create space, boot from the cdrom, install and it creates the vmx for you
<TLE> Hey guys. I've got a few questions. 1. Does this channel and the mailing-list deal both with the page in help.ubunt.com and wiki.ubuntu.com?
<LaserJock> yep, basically
<TLE> 2. Discussion about the contents of a page, is that done in the mailing list or in the discussion page pertaining to the relevant page ?
<LaserJock> depends
<LaserJock> if it has a discussion page you could use that
<LaserJock> but you are also welcome to discuss it here or on the list
<TLE> ok thanks
<LaserJock> nixternal: have you ever used wireless with vmware-player?
<nixternal> i have never used vmware player
<nixternal> do you watch "small people, big world"
<LaserJock> nope
<nixternal> i love this show
<LaserJock> ah, I think vmware-player dies because it's trying to use my ethernet connection
<LaserJock> but I'm using wireless
<nixternal> can't you tell it to use wireless?
<LaserJock> I don't know, trying to find out
<LaserJock> vmware server gave me the option ... but it won't run so that's kinda pointless
<mpt> Anyone here still running Dapper?
<mpt> If so, please test bug 47596 :-)
<Ubugtu> Malone bug 47596 in gnome-panel ""Ubuntu Book Excerpt" doesn't show book excerpt (shows "Welcome to Ubuntu" instead)" [Medium,Needs info]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/47596
<LaserJock> hmm, I'm pretty sure that's not the case for most people
<mdke> morning
<Burgundavia> morning mdke
<mdke> Burgundavia: are you still using the quicktour translations, or can we close that down?
<Burgundavia> nuke it
<Burgundavia> quicktour has been dead two releases now
<mdke> ah, we should definitely nuke it then - translators are still going
<mdke> hi there linuxphotogeek
<mdke> nice job on closing your first bug!
<linuxphotogeek> Yahoo!
<linuxphotogeek> It worked.
<linuxphotogeek> I got the new .deb installed and am reviewing
<mdke> awesome
<linuxphotogeek> I tried Jeff's 'yelptest' script and it didn't work -- I haven't yet had time to dive into it.
<mdke> it's ok, you can simply type "yelp address/of/document.xml" to open a document in yelp
<mdke> I'm not sure whether jeff's script actually saves any time
<linuxphotogeek> good point.
<mdke> well, it saves some time, but you can live without it :)
<linuxphotogeek> Is my understand that the trend of the documentation it to make it more like a FAQ?
<linuxphotogeek> Each short question with a little doc tip.
<mdke> if that is your understanding, that's not right, no
<linuxphotogeek> Maybe on question but maybe granular topic.
<mdke> we're just trying to structure the material better, so people can navigate more easily; and along with that try to ensure each page addresses a specific topic
<mdke> so if you plug "mp3" into the search, in theory you should get a page which tells you what you want to know
<mdke> we're a fair distance away :)
<linuxphotogeek> I see in the help there is a topic like What is a package manager?
<linuxphotogeek> When I plug mp3 into search it works
<mdke> yeah, I picked an easy one :)
<mdke> if you find a search term that doesn't work and should, please file a bug - that is very much a high priority task for us to fix this release
<mdke> mpt: do you know, it might be useful if you could write up a short guide about the best way to plant search terms in documents
<mdke> mpt: would that be possible?
<linuxphotogeek> Jeff's 'yelptest' script does help some as yelp requires the full path to the .xml and Jeff's little script now that I mod
<mdke> yep
<linuxphotogeek> 'ed it a little just requires the first part of the xml file name.
<linuxphotogeek> The full path presents an opportunity for some tipping practise. Boy do I need that.
<mdke> :)
<linuxphotogeek> With Jeff's little script I just enter yelptest office and it expands to 'yelp /home/will/ubuntu-doc/ubuntu/C/office/office.xml'
<mdke> nice to have you aboard anyhow
<kalon33> hello all !
<mdke> hi kalon33
<kalon33> hi matthew !
<nixternal> mdke: in reference to topic based help, does it make sense to seperate "Music and Video (Multimedia)" from "Graphics and Pictures (Photo Editing)"?
<mdke> nixternal: no
<nixternal> keep it all together then?
<mdke> nixternal: well, I don't have strong feelings about it, but to save space on the number of topics mpt suggested we merge them
<nixternal> oh ok
<nixternal> understandable there
<mdke> what do you think?
<nixternal> i was thinking of seperating them according to the new layout we are going to do with Kubuntu Help
<nixternal> http://nixternal.ubuntu-rocks.org/stuff/doc/ktbh
<nixternal> reference ^^
<mdke> right, but what's the reasoning?
<nixternal> in that i have multimedia which covers audio/video and I have graphics which covers the inkscape, gimp, krita, gwenview and what not
<nixternal> actually, there is no reasoning, because i can still do it even if they were all in one directory or in one huge file
<mdke> well, I see the attraction of avoiding having *too* many topics, so I was happy to follow mpt's suggestion
<nixternal> well, I think the topics I have in that proposed page is pretty much enough to cover all of the basics
<zorglu_> what about going to a page with all the topic on the whole screen (ala wikipedia portal) and thus remove the issue of space (due to the fact this is a menu on the left) ?
<nixternal> well, that menu on the left is pretty much all of the topics
<zorglu_> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portal:Free_software <- example of portal
<zorglu_> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Linux <- same thing but uglier
<nixternal> thats actually not a bad idea
<zorglu_> nixternal: ok it was just suggestion out of the blue to fix the space issue
<nixternal> man...this is going to be a lot of work no matter how we go about it
<jmantha> the free software portal looks pretty nice
<nixternal> have we figured out how we are going to be doing the page structure? are we going to be following the same way we have always done it, or are we changing a little bit?
<Gwaihir> nixternal: I was looking at your "start page" here http://nixternal.ubuntu-rocks.org/stuff/doc/ktbh/
<Gwaihir> is ti going to be used even for Ubuntu?
<nixternal> ya, i know it breaks konqueror :)
<nixternal> Kubuntu only
<Gwaihir> ok.. thanks!
<nixternal> unless they wanted to use it, but I don't know how that would work for yelp..that would be a massive xslt for someone to hack together
<Gwaihir> yes... it would be
<jmantha> nixternal: that's looking rather good
<nixternal> what is that?
<mdke> Gwaihir: we're looking to do something quite similar
<Gwaihir> mdke: looks great...
<Gwaihir> the only problem i see... is about the different links
<Gwaihir> to community stuff
<Gwaihir> (at least for the italian communiyt)
<mdke> well, that may not be final, don't forget nixternal's thing is just a draft
<mdke> in fact the support links have their own topic, so probably that area won't be necessary
<Gwaihir> oh I see... nice draft, indeed
<mpt> mdke, yes, I could do that
<mdke> mpt: that would be really good
<mpt> though I don't know it myself, I can find out :-)
<mdke> ah, I thought you were involved in that code
<mpt> no
<mpt> (Do I look like a programmer?!?:-P)
<mdke> mpt: well, yeah.
<mpt> I are just an intahrackshin designah
* mdke blinks
<Gwaihir> bye all! ;)
#ubuntu-doc 2007-12-10
<lulu> I just asked #ubuntu but no one helped me
<lulu> I just installed ubuntu gutsy but X failed to start with an ATI Radeon X700, I just solved the problem and it is not well documented. who should I report the bug to?
<jjesse_> is it an actual bug that needs to be reported on launchpad
<jjesse_> or is it some documentation that needs to be updated?
<lulu> I am going to make a tutorial, or modify wiki, but I think its unfair for newcomers to not be able to start X :D
<lulu> jjesse, mmm, maybe launchpad, I will take a look at it.
<posingaspopular> lulu: if it's not a bug on launchpad or in the wiki.ubuntu page, msg me and i'll help you with the actual doc stuff. jjesse is good at that stuff too.
<posingaspopular> let me know... afk
<jjesse> i'm afk as well, spending time w/ wife before i head out on the road again
<lulu> posingaspopular, thank you, nothing in launchpad and very little info in wiki, are you there?
<posingaspopular> bbiab lulu
<lulu> ok
<nixternal> oy
#ubuntu-doc 2007-12-12
<Lhademmor> Hi, who's in charge of the website?
<Lhademmor> http://www.ubuntu.com/products/whatisubuntu/desktopedition has some very outdated pictures and other stuff that I want to discuss - should I report it as a bug?
<Lhademmor> it's quiet today
<Lhademmor> "Computers are like airconditioners - They dont really work with windows open..." lol
#ubuntu-doc 2007-12-16
<ifireball> hello, posted this http://ifireball.wordpress.com/2007/12/13/fixing-the-nautilus-garbage-bin/ a while ago, I think this may be useful to other ppl, I was directed on #ubuntu to ask here if and when this should be linked to
<LjL> ifireball, after reading it i think it rather calls for a bug report (it's arguable whether it's a bug really, but the "nautilus should provide more detailed dialog" is probably worth an attempt) rather than a wiki guide
<ifireball> LjL: I'm thinking both ;)
<ifireball> also, the sun doc indicates this may also happen with USB drives (didn't try that though)
<LjL> if you don't have the right permissions on the USB drive
<ifireball> well, I suppose the auto-udev-hotplug-magic will take care of that...
#ubuntu-doc 2008-12-08
<bazaar> hi. i've got a question concerning docbook/fop. the fop font-handling (for latin-2 chars for example) seems very complicated to me. is there any ubuntu-related article on that?
#ubuntu-doc 2008-12-10
<alkisg> Hello, how can I rename (or remove and repost under a new name) a page that I've uploaded to https://help.ubuntu.com/community/SomePage ?
<rrittenhouse> This may be a little off subject? I'm writing documentation for my IT department and I'm trying to find a "better way" than just writing up open office files or even just printing it out and putting it in a book. Any ideas?
<rrittenhouse> I've attempted an internal Wiki already and that appears to work but I'm just wanting to make sure there isn't a better way.
<mdke> rrittenhouse: I think an internal wiki is likely to be the best way
<rrittenhouse> mdke, awesome. I guess it is pretty nice but it would really need to stay updated and be relatively secure :-D
<rrittenhouse> mdke  I'm sure it could also be put on a management vlan too to improve security.
<mdke> rrittenhouse: that would work
#ubuntu-doc 2008-12-11
<technomensch> hey rocket, you in?
 * Rocket2DMn peeks
<technomensch> hehe
<technomensch> how you be?
<Rocket2DMn> doin ok, and you?
<technomensch> sleeping with the devil, my new laptop
<technomensch> note to self, and anyone else crazy enough to use gparted to clean up vista. DON'T.
<technomensch> it looks like I'm finally going to have to create a Vista dual-boot installation guide because the forums are no help when we get stuff like this
<technomensch> http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=977567
<Rocket2DMn> dual boots are not hard to setup
<technomensch> this is not as easy for <<beep>> https://help.ubuntu.com/8.10/switching/installing-partitioning.html
<technomensch> ordiniarly, you'd think
<Rocket2DMn> so you currently have Ubuntu installed and want to put Vista on it now?
<technomensch> but for some reason, the partition tool is not seeing the large 15 gb I left open
<technomensch> other way around
<technomensch> the computer came with vista, partitioned into 3 drives
<technomensch> 10gb of an eisa recovery, 45+ of vista and 45+ of storage
<Rocket2DMn> ok, its easier that way
<technomensch> it should be
<Rocket2DMn> where do you want your Ubuntu partitions to be
<Rocket2DMn> how much space do you want to dedicated to UBuntu and VistA?  Do you want to keep the data partition?
<technomensch> i wnat it in the 15 gb of free space I created using gparted.
<technomensch> except when I use "guided- use the largest continuous free space", it takes over the whole drive
<Rocket2DMn> do manual partitioning
<Rocket2DMn> set your root, swap, and /home if you want
<Rocket2DMn> you just gotta partition that 15GBs down into segments
<technomensch> I must confess, I've never been good at manual partitioning.  I've been spoiled rotten.
<technomensch> I kinda gathered that based on that comment
<Rocket2DMn> well no way to learn like doing it yourself
<technomensch> ::nod::
<Rocket2DMn> i was doing forum support when you messaged me, i dont get to do it much these days
<Rocket2DMn> short on time and energy
<technomensch> ::nod:: I hear ya.  I've been so slammed I haven't gotten back to the docs clean up I was doing
<technomensch> but at least now I think I can clean up this: https://help.ubuntu.com/8.10/switching/installing-partitioning.html
<Rocket2DMn> thats an official doc, so you gotta go through more official routes to get tha tupdated
<technomensch> ::nod:::
<j1mc> anyone thinking of going to this? http://www.writersua.com/ohc/index.html
<Rocket2DMn> what the heck is that? are you spamming us?
<j1mc> Rocket2DMn: heh, no, i'm not spamming you
<j1mc> i'm a member of the ubuntu-doc-committers team on launchpad
<j1mc> i do the docs for xubuntu
<Rocket2DMn> oh ok, good, b/c i dont have ops in this channel, lol
<j1mc> i was thinking of going to that, and wanted to see if other people were maybe going to that?
<j1mc> there is an earlybird registration deadline today
<Rocket2DMn> never heard of it
<j1mc> np
<Rocket2DMn> i need to get back to doing wiki documentation soon, ive gotten very sidetracked with life
<technomensch> rocket, you're on planet ubuntu, right?
<Rocket2DMn> no, i think that is for Ubuntu Members
<Rocket2DMn> im applying for membership at the next Americas board meeting (whenever that turns out to be)
<technomensch> not sure.  the guy who is handling it for the community team had recommended that I use that as a jumping off point for communication.  I say in their meetings at the googleplex
<technomensch> I mean, saw @ their meeting
<technomensch> that they need to improve communications between teams
<Rocket2DMn> i think planet ubuntu is a collection of blogs more or less
<Rocket2DMn> yeah communication between teams is important, we've done some of that with the Beginners Team
<technomensch> well I've always admired what you guys are doing on that team
<technomensch> did I tell you I finally heard back from the guy running that hardware website?
<Rocket2DMn> no, you didnt
<Rocket2DMn> what did you hear?
<technomensch> there is a guy on the QA team that is working with cannocial to figure out exactly what to do about the hardware
<technomensch> so I put him in touch with them and we were doing email conversations for a bit
<technomensch> come to think of it, I need to follow up on  that
<technomensch> I know they've been busy @ can...
<technomensch> he did seem interested about wanting to know what could be done to help
<technomensch> even though it took about a month or so to hear back from him.  might not be an address he was checking often
<Rocket2DMn> cool, i like to do triage hardware bugs on LP as well, since the kernel team has their triage process well documented
<Rocket2DMn> do you remember that Foxconn mess last July?
<technomensch> groovy
<nixternal> mdke: I have talked with evand here at UDS about the Ubiquity installer stuff where they wanted some documentation during the install...like 3 sentneces about different areas of Ubuntu while people are doing the install
<nixternal> I am sure you remember that spec from last year, so it seems they are finally going forward with it...I figured you would probably head up the Ubuntu side of it..I will keep you informed if I find out anything else
<nixternal> mdke: if you get a chance, could you do one of two things: either 1) add me as an admin to the Ubuntu Core Doc members, or 2) unsubscribe the Ubuntu Core Doc members, or the committers from bug #224971 ... I am tired of receiving those useless updates
<nixternal> thanks!
<nixternal> https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu-doc/+bug/224971
<jjesse> unsubscribe me as well
#ubuntu-doc 2008-12-12
<mdke> nixternal: I'm afraid I can't find any way to unsubscribe from that bug
<nixternal> mdke: ya, I found that out after talking to LP devs here...it might get fixed in the future
<Rocket2DMn> I Would very much like to speak with Duncan Lithgow about all this Software and Application project stuff
<Rocket2DMn> What are we going to do with all those pages?  What is the status?
<Rocket2DMn> As far as I'm concerned, the whole endeavor was embarked upon without the doc team or wiki team's approval and is very confusing
#ubuntu-doc 2008-12-13
<mdke> Rocket2DMn: I can't figure out that bug you are experiencing. I guess you are missing the symbolic link at /usr/share/gnome/help/libs?
<Rocket2DMn> hey mdke
<Rocket2DMn> i just ran across the bug report when i was triaging yesterday, and i was able to reproduce it
 * mdke nods
<Rocket2DMn> i didnt try to read very much into the output, let me have a look at the attachments i uploaded
<mdke> Rocket2DMn: I've asked for the output of a couple more commands, if you have time
<Rocket2DMn> sure let me wake up the laptop
<Rocket2DMn> heh yeah that directory is empty
<mdke> it exists?
<mdke> it should be a symbolic link pointing at /usr/share/ubuntu-docs/libs
<Rocket2DMn> i just posted back, the directory exists but it is empty
<Rocket2DMn> negative, it is its own directory
<mdke> how bizarre
<mdke> I'm stumped about that
<Rocket2DMn> that laptop has been upgraded since Feisty
<mdke> aha...
<Rocket2DMn> its always been to a stable release though, i dont use it for development testing
<mdke> I think that in gutsy and feisty that directory may not have been a symbolic link, so I guess what has happened is that it didn't get removed, and therefore the symbolic link can't be created
<Rocket2DMn> i see in Jaunty that it is a symlink
<mdke> it should be in Intrepid too
<Rocket2DMn> its not a symlink in hardy
<mdke> does it have files in it in hardy?
<Rocket2DMn> yeah
<Rocket2DMn> they are symlinked though
<mdke> ok, that must be the issue
<mdke> i don't know how to fix that :)
<Rocket2DMn> idk how updates are configured during upgrades, but i guess you need to run a command to check for a symlink, and if it doesnt exist, then delete the directory and create the link
<Rocket2DMn> like a bash script with some if/then statements
<mdke> maybe
<Rocket2DMn> i dont actually patch bugs for Ubuntu, i drew the line at triaging
<mdke> I'll ask one of the developers who knows all about packaging
<Rocket2DMn> ok, do you want me to post the source of problem to the bug report?
<mdke> thanks for your help debugging that issue
<mdke> Rocket2DMn: no, that's fine. I think the bug report has the right info now
<Rocket2DMn> ok, no problem
<Rocket2DMn> and thank you for the testimonial last week
<mdke> pleasure
<Rocket2DMn> did you go to UDS Jaunty?
<mdke> no
<mdke> I've never been to a developer conference
<Rocket2DMn> i havent either, but i would loved to have gone to this one.  I was from the Bay Area, and I have a friend who works at Google, I could've gotten in no problem
<Rocket2DMn> didnt think my company would fly my 3k miles for that though
<mdke> heh
<mdke> I can't really see myself getting the time off either
<Rocket2DMn> yeah same, woulda been great if they could fly me out there and give me a charge number
<mdke> indeed
<Rocket2DMn> apparently it was decided (or just announced) at UDS that the Forum Council can now approve Ubuntu Members
<mdke> ok. I know it's been talked about for a bit
<mdke> personally, I thoroughly disapprove of team councils being permitted to approve Ubuntu members, especially now that we have a great regional board system
<mdke> if team councils do it, you lose the benefit of contributors being seen by other areas of the community, because teams just appoint members from their own section of the community
<Rocket2DMn> yeah, I think the idea was that it could be granted to outstanding contributors to the forums.
<Rocket2DMn> however i do wish the forums were more integrated with the rest of the community, and having to go to regional boards is one way to encourage that
<mdke> that's exactly my point
<Rocket2DMn> there is discussion right now about how another mod and i who are currently on the regional board application list are going to go through the approval process.  i'm all for staying with the regional board, like everybody else does
<mdke> it's up to you :)
<Rocket2DMn> we'll figure it out soon, it would be nice if they set a date for the next meeting though
<j1mc> hi a
<j1mc> all
<Rocket2DMn> hello
<j1mc> is there talk of a docteam meeting?
<mdke> no :)
<Rocket2DMn> lol, we dont actually have many people who sit in this channel, and those that do dont speak
<j1mc> yes, it's pretty rare
<mdke> I don't think we have had a meeting for a number of years now, it wouldn't be a bad idea
<Rocket2DMn> i would very much like to know what duncan lithgow was doing onthe community docs and how we can clean it up
<j1mc> i know that we had tried to coordinate a meeting during the hardy release, but couldn't work out schedules.
<j1mc> it should be a busy doc cycle for me, as xfce needs new docs for xfce 4.6
<mdke> cool
<j1mc> fortunately, work has mellowed out some for now.
<j1mc> so not as many late nights.
<Rocket2DMn> hehe, thats good
 * mdke ducks out for a bit
<j1mc> have a good day, mdke
<Rocket2DMn> see ya mdke
<Rocket2DMn> hmm CategoryX and CategoryXwindowSystem
#ubuntu-doc 2009-12-07
<gastly> hi guys, I need some help with contributing to the kubuntu docs, anyone around who can help?
<starcraftman> gastly: we talking bout system or wiki?
<gastly> the system ones
<gastly> for lucid
<starcraftman> I don't work for kubuntu docs, but can offer info. jjesse works for em be sure to ping him later when he pops on. Whats trouble?
<starcraftman> gastly: ^
<gastly> starcraftman, well, actually, it's about the graphics category that's in the ToDo list.
<starcraftman> oh specific questions, guess I can't help on that. If it was more of how to contribute that I can answer.
<gastly> ahh, well, I guess I'll send a mail to the list then. Thanks for your help :)
<starcraftman> gastly: that is always an option.
<starcraftman> If ya wait long enough I'm usre jesse would pop back in.
<gastly> cool, but it's kinda late here hehe, so can't stay for long =)
<starcraftman> gastly: rgr, then send a mail to list, I'll tell jesse when he pops back.
<gastly> starcraftman, cool thanks
<starcraftman> gastly: np, and thanks for helping with docs.
<gastly> it's always a pleasure to help out the community :)
<stlsaint> DarkwingDuck: ping
#ubuntu-doc 2009-12-08
<DarkwingDuck> stlsaint: pong
<dailystruggle> hello is anyone home?
<dailystruggle> I am trying to find what screen casts or captures may be needed?
<nigel_nb> dailystruggle: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ScreencastTeam
<nigel_nb> might help
<dailystruggle> I am there and they say ask if some thing is pressin
<popey> dailystruggle: sorry, will get back to your mail, had a busy day
<dailystruggle> ok
<dailystruggle> popey:I thought maybe it got lost in the mix I go over a ton every day myself
<dailystruggle> nigel_nb:Thank you
<nigel_nb> dailystruggle: no problem, sorry to be late
<nigel_nb> didn't realize that the page I was on would be useful to you
<dailystruggle> what page do you mean?
<nigel_nb> the link i gave you earlier
<dailystruggle> oh yes I was on that page yesterday and earlier but the wiki from the screencast team https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ScreencastTeam/GettingInvolved says to ask
<dailystruggle> sorry late five things at once
<nigel_nb> same here
<nigel_nb> but probly more
<dailystruggle> you mean you don't just have the cush job everyone thinks?
<nigel_nb> dailystruggle: cush job?
<dailystruggle> nigel_nb: yes thats what everyone thinks when you work from home or behind a computer you mean it's not true
<nigel_nb> actually I do work outside home, but today's a day off
<dailystruggle> nigel_nb: I hear that all the time but no job here though
<dailystruggle> nigel_nb: committed
<popey> dailystruggle: the wiki is badly out of date
<dailystruggle> popey: where is a list of objective videos I may something to cover it already
<popey> there isnt a list on the wiki right now
<dailystruggle> I added the you tube account as friend and subscribed but I am starting to direct questions to new-user-experience-team@lists.launchpad.net for simple items people have
<dailystruggle> the ones that I receive pm or mail
<popey> ok, I have a few things on my list right now, let me get back to you by mail
#ubuntu-doc 2009-12-10
<stlsaint> hello?
<jjesse> hello
<stlsaint> hola jjesse
#ubuntu-doc 2009-12-12
<dvz-> lo there.  on the HeloOnVariables wiki page...what is it meaning "If the variables are set on !UserName/!MyDict ... ?   what is !UserName/!MyDict ...most notably, the exclamation points?
<Flannel> dvz-: the esclamation points mean "dont turn this into a wiki link", but looks like markup got messed up somewhere
<dvz-> so do they both have to be exlamed?
<Flannel> dvz-: That's just for that page, right.  You just go to /YourUserName/MyDict I believe.
<Flannel> Above that it says HomePageName instead of YourUserName
<dvz-> so i'm trying to create a dict for wiki.ubuntu.com/homepage/subpage/sub2page/myDict   do i need to rename it to !homepage/!subpage/!sub2page/!myDict  then, exclame all the way to the root?
<Flannel> No, the !s are an artifact of the wiki markup to display the instructions
<dvz-> thanks...i was about to screw up major.
<dvz-> argh. so i have ../Joining/FormatDict    i want to include FormatDict in joining....does that bang syntax need to be saved in the Dict file or Joining?
<dvz-> okay.. i figured out what they were trying to do here.  Now my question is this:  How do you get an immutable page updated?   i.e.  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/HelpOnVariables.
<dvz-> Section 3.2 has the misprint   !UserName/!MyDict  (MyDict becomes a link)...
<dvz-> it should be:   !UserName/MyDict
<dvz-> hm. but regardless, that doesn't make variables any more comprehensive.
<dvz-> or clear.
<dvz-> not sure who's incharge of wiki, but that page may need an overhaul and verification... following that guide didn't produce anything of tangible results other than a headache.
<Rocket2DMn> hey mdke , if you get a few minutes, i have some questions i would like to run by you
<dvz-> So how do i go about joining the Doc/Wiki team?
<Rocket2DMn> dvz-, you can join the ubuntu-doc-contributors team on LP: https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-doc-contributors
<Rocket2DMn> dvz-, were you interested in wiki or system documentation?
<dvz-> yes  Rocket2DMn couldn't you tell with my 50+ updates this morning?
<dvz-> then i got frustrated with one of the pages cause i couldn't edit it to correct it..(HelpOnVariables)
<Rocket2DMn> dvz-, those updates were for the team wiki, not documentaiton :)
<dvz-> I know they were, but I wanted to update teh HelpOnVariables page (the documentation about the variables)
<dvz-> and...I read the Moin page about the variables and finally understood it..though it didn't work...reading this page gave me a migraine trying to figure out what the heck !UserName/!MyDict was...which was formatted incorrectly.
<Rocket2DMn> that page is part of the MoinMoin wiki software installation, it can't be edited
<dvz-> Rocket2DMn: there's a MoinMoin version and a non MoinMoin version...MoinMoin version @var    nonMoinMoin  @var@
<dvz-> also, the MoinMoin version has:  !UserName/MyDict    whereas this one has: !UserName/!MyDict   which shows up as !UserName/![[MyDict]]
<dvz-> (where [[MyDict]] is the link to MyDict
<Rocket2DMn> strange
<dvz-> stlsaint: think about it some more?
<dvz-> wrong channel meh
#ubuntu-doc 2009-12-13
<Rocket2DMn> jjesse, on a roll buddy!
<jjesse> Rocket2DMn: i think i have most if not all of the reported karmic bugs fixed for kubuntu-docs
<jjesse> so then we can somehow figure out how to do an SRU for kubuntu-docs
<Rocket2DMn> that's awesome
<jjesse> yeah
<Rocket2DMn> I just sent out a request to help get ubuntu-docs bugs fixed
<jjesse> and the lucid kubuntu-docs are started to rock again
<jjesse> which is nice
<jjesse> ok i'm out to walk the dog, see you later :)
<Rocket2DMn> okie dokie, peace
<mistrynitesh> any reason why link to karmic specs still showing on the /Kubuntu/Todo/Lucid wiki page?
<Darkwing-Netbook> mistrynitesh: Not sure, hang on...
<Darkwing-Netbook> mistrynitesh: Fixed. :) Thanks for pointing that out.
<mistrynitesh> Darkwink-Netbook: thanks for redirecting :)
<Darkwing-Netbook> hehe I just realized you were in there LOL
<mistrynitesh> :D
<Rocket2DMn> mdke, if you get a few minutes today, I have some questions I'd like to run by you
<dhillon-v10> nixternal, hi :)
 * dhillon-v10 says hi to everyone
#ubuntu-doc 2010-12-13
<udienz> mdke: help.. following bug 677998, diff from merged and actual tarball is different
<ubot2> Launchpad bug 677998 in ubuntu-docs (Ubuntu Maverick) (and 2 other projects) "openldap-server instructions have a small bug (affects: 1) (heat: 12)" [Undecided,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/677998
<udienz> actual tarball = actual diff produce by packagaging
<udienz> https://code.launchpad.net/~udienz/ubuntu-docs/natty-ubuntu-docs.fix677998/+merge/42857/+preview-diff/+files/preview.diff
<udienz> http://launchpadlibrarian.net/60441147/ubuntu-docs_10.10.3_10.10.4.diff.gz
<udienz> mdke: different one, i don't know why
<udienz> mdke: but fix at natty
<udienz> sorry for trash noise
<udienz> ah i got the answers, maverick branch also merged with others
<udienz> sorry again
#ubuntu-doc 2010-12-15
<peppe84> hi simple backup guide is not update
<peppe84>  https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ubuntu-docs/+bug/690803
<ubot2> Launchpad bug 690803 in ubuntu-docs (Ubuntu) "keeping-safe backup-files (affects: 1) (heat: 6)" [Undecided,New]
<peppe84> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/BackupYourSystem/SimpleBackupSuite
#ubuntu-doc 2010-12-16
<cjohnston> mdke: ping
<mdke> cjohnston: (In case I'm not around at the moment, please provide a bit of information about what you want and I will respond when I get back)
<cjohnston> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuHashes   says to file a bug against ubuntu-website for updates, isnt the correct place to file those bugs against ubuntu-docs
<cjohnston> anyone can answer that
#ubuntu-doc 2012-12-10
<ppetraki> can someone checkin on https://bugs.launchpad.net/serverguide/+bug/1057071 ?
<ubot2`> Launchpad bug 1057071 in Ubuntu Server Guide "typo in multipath device handler setup" [Undecided,Confirmed]
<ppetraki> been ready to merge for some time
<jbicha> ppetraki: why is that proposed for the precise branch & not quantal?
<ppetraki> jbicha, because the precise docs are broken, and is where the bug was initially discovered
<jbicha> is quantal broken too though?
<ppetraki> jbicha, likely, hasn't changed
<ppetraki> jbicha, the LTS version is a little more important to me, as this error will generate support reqs
 * ppetraki is doc
<ppetraki> s
<ppetraki> maintainer
<jbicha> but getting it fixed in trunk is more important or else things won't really be fixed
<ppetraki> I'm simply following the process I usually do for SRU fixes
<jbicha> anyway, could you send an email to the ubuntu-doc list to make sure we see it
<ppetraki> I couldn't find any sort of process for getting doc fixes backported, or what the priority is
<jbicha> SRU policy is that bugs must be fixed in the development release before they are eligible for SRU
<jbicha> since the serverguide is unfortunately not translated and web only, all it takes is for someone on the team to make the fix in bzr and upload the fix to the website
#ubuntu-doc 2012-12-11
<smartboyhw> Hmm the Docs Jam: Interesting
#ubuntu-doc 2012-12-13
<Silverlion> hi there
<jcastro_> I am confused on http://pad.ubuntu.com/communitywebsite-contribute-support
<jcastro_> are we supposed to put specific examples there?
<Silverlion> good morning jono ;)
<jono> hey Silverlion :-)
<Silverlion> u remember me, dont you jono? i havent forgotten the nokia story
<jono> Silverlion, the nokia story?
<Silverlion> jono: excuse myself. there has been an incidance the year before last one regarding an accusation that a user had spied on a ubuntu group to get information for a company called nokia
<jono> Silverlion, ahh yes
<Silverlion> Silverlion: that's me (== the accused spy)
<jono> Silverlion, :-)
<Silverlion> jono ???
<jono> Silverlion, eh?
<Silverlion> jono: i did not understand your smiling
<jono> Silverlion, was just being nice
<Silverlion> jono: oh ^^ thanks. actually i was looking for you ;)
<jono> Silverlion, sorry, I am in a meeting right now
<jono> should be back soon
<Silverlion> jono copy that
<YoBoY> Hi, a question about this new community site, it's planned to be localised, or it's just an english one ?
<balloons> YoBoY, good question! I can't say for sure, but I don't believe the current one is localized, so I would assume the same for this
<balloons> mhall119, is this something that could be localized?
<YoBoY> The current one ? you meen the ubuntu.com/community ? no it's not
<mhall119> balloons: what, the website?
<balloons> mhall119, yes.. this content we're writing
<balloons> I'm assuming getting translations work wouldn't be difficult.. more the web work to localize and display it
<mhall119> balloons: probably not, as WP doesn't lend itself to translating
<balloons> thanks.. just confirming my thoughts
<rrnwexec> can we provide an option to present the site in a Google Translate frame? would that be useful?
<YoBoY> I was asking that because all the online localised ressources (forums, documentations,â¦) have a bad highlight on the current ubuntu.com website
<jcastro_> I am confused on http://pad.ubuntu.com/communitywebsite-contribute-support
<jcastro_> are we supposed to put specific examples for each site there?
<jbicha> YoBoY: have you set up WordPress before? if you can figure out a good workflow to make it translatable I'm sure we'd be interested
<jbicha> http://codex.wordpress.org/Multilingual_WordPress
<YoBoY> jbicha, yes I have used one, and I can tell I don't like wordpress :D
<balloons> :-) still if we could make it happen, I'm sure we could get some localizations
<balloons> and that would be cool stuff
<balloons> does anyone have a suggestion on what was intended / should go in the 'tips and tricks' section of the template?
<jcastro_> yeah so I'm not sure about that either
<rrnwexec> so quiet in here. who's editing?
<Atamira> everyone does a bit
<Atamira> if you need a response, send an email through to the mailing list is the best thing
<balloons> I'm messing about on quality ofc ;-)
<jcastro_> balloons: did you figure out what to do on the templated pages?
<balloons> jcastro_, as far as? my tips and tricks are blank
<balloons> just recruiting some folks now to look at what I've written so fair..
<balloons> and it needs converted to markdown
<jcastro_> I know markdown, link me up!
<balloons> jcastro_, feel free to markdown: http://pad.ubuntu.com/communitywebsite-contribute-quality
<jcastro_> done
<balloons> :-p
<balloons> so the bullet list is ok as-is?
<jcastro_> yeah
<jcastro_> oh wait
<jcastro_> that got styliazed
<balloons> ok, so a space to indent
<balloons> simple enough
<balloons> I think I learned a lot of markdown from that
<jcastro_> I'll fix up the loco one a bit
<jono> how are the docs going?
<rrnwexec> chomped on a couple this morning, and starting again now
<jcastro_> my hands hurt
<jcastro_> I'm in -contribute-support
<jono> you guys rock :-)
<jcastro_> we're hurting in -design and -artwork
<jcastro_> TEMPLATEVILLE.
<balloons> do we have folks from artwork?
<balloons> probably should update this again; https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CommunityWebsite
<jcastro_> rawr, choke on that list of blogs! mwahahaha
#ubuntu-doc 2012-12-16
<Noskcaj> what still needs doing to finish http://pad.ubuntu.com/communitywebsite-contribute-quality ?
#ubuntu-doc 2013-12-09
<cprofitt> pleia2: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/WikiGuide needs the following:
<cprofitt> content or links on tags and categories
<cprofitt> pleia2 I just edited it now... I marked a bunch I planned on getting to tonight
<pleia2> cprofitt: ah, thanks!
<cprofitt> no problem
<cprofitt> I can't get that PageHits page to load...
<pleia2> I can't either
<pleia2> I tried a couple times earlier and kept getting timeouts :\
<cprofitt> yep
<cprofitt> something to look in too
<cprofitt> eventually
<cprofitt> wonder if it is this - http://moinmo.in/MoinMoinBugs/PageHitsFails
<cprofitt> woot... the page finally loaded for me
<cprofitt> 3989 total pages
<pleia2> wow
<cprofitt> yeah
<wmorri> hi, i just wanted to let people know that the vodaphone link on this page leads to a nicely made 404 page. https://help.ubuntu.com/community/DialupModemHowto/Huawei
<pleia2> heh, that's kind of a frightening link anyway :)
<pleia2> "here, go download some .deb"
<wmorri> yes it is, and chrome doesn't seem to like it.
<pleia2> there, I linked to the project page instead
<wmorri> great! thanks!
<cprofitt> hmm... which still comes up as untrusted
<pleia2> https://forge.betavine.net ?
<pleia2> chrome seems ok with it
<cprofitt> that page likely needs to be updated anyway since it refers to 7.10
<cprofitt> https://forge.betavine.net/projects/vodafonemobilec/
<cprofitt> yeah Firefox is saying it is not trusted
<wmorri> chrome likes the new link.
<cprofitt> the certificate they are using is not signed by a known signe
<pleia2> ah The certificate is not trusted because no issuer chain was provided.
<cprofitt> yep
<cprofitt> pleia2: does going to https://help.ubuntu.com/community/ forward you to https://help.ubuntu.com/community/OldFront
<pleia2> cprofitt: nope
<cprofitt> weird... it is doing that on both of my machines
<pleia2> strange :\
<cprofitt> I do not get a message that I am forwarded... but the URL changes
<pleia2> stays at https://help.ubuntu.com/community/ which shows https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UserDocumentation
<cprofitt> cleared my cache and now it is ok
<pleia2> :)
<cprofitt> this one is interesting that knome is working on
<cprofitt> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/NewDocs/Banner
<pleia2> heading out to dinner, bbiab
<cprofitt> ok
<cprofitt> enjoy
<cprofitt> this lookes to be a candidate for deletion
<cprofitt> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/InterWikiMap
<cprofitt> tagged it and we can discuss / review on the ML
<cprofitt> interesting page https://help.ubuntu.com/community/WikiCourseHandOut
<cprofitt> knome: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/NewDocs
<cprofitt> knome pleia2 belkinsa - interesting pages
<cprofitt> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/EventStats/UserAgents
<cprofitt> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/EventStats/HitCounts
<cprofitt> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/EventStats/Languages
<knome> pleia2, cprofitt: i got to load the PageHits page. i have a local copy of that situation if you want it
<knome> slickymaster, hey!
<knome> i'm looking at NewDocs...
<slickymaster> yes
<knome> some of the information there doesn't seem to be directed to users browsing the contents, but the persons working on the NewDocs project
<knome> i guess that's fine, but should we move them more towards the bottom of the page?
<knome> and maybe refresh the layout generally a bit
<slickymaster> yes the layout can, and should be refreshed
<knome> and there's yet another link to a yet another list of "useful resources", which seem to be popping up at all times
<slickymaster> you mean the helpful links' link?
<knome> yep
<slickymaster> well, the idea behind that was the fact that originally the creator of NewDocs didn't want to mix non *buntu links with *buntu links
<slickymaster> that's why he created it, I guess
<knome> i need to look at merging some of those lists
<knome> and ensure they are relatively fresh
<slickymaster> it was a place where he could link something Linux related but not *buntu directly related
<knome> from NewDocs and others as well
<slickymaster> knome: I agree. in fact the maintenance of NewDocs is something that I've just started a while back
<slickymaster> one thing I wanted you to see is the https://help.ubuntu.com/community/ToBeReviewed page
<knome> aha
<knome> that's not a long one
<slickymaster> what are we supose to do with the pages falling in there?
<slickymaster> it's not long, right now, but I guess that in will tent to grow pretty quickly if the maintenance work on NewDocs finally gets into warp speed
<knome> :)
<knome> updated NewDocs a bit
<slickymaster> but you really touch an important issue when you spoke about its layout. As it is now it's not 100% functional when it concerns to users browsing the
<slickymaster> forget what I just wrote
<slickymaster> you must have a sort of Midas touch ;)
<knome> HAH
<slickymaster> functionality wise and aesthetically wise it's a giant improvement
<knome> i guess there is one more thing that could be done for the letter pages
<knome> include the navivation at the bottom as well
<slickymaster> you mean include the NewDocs/Banner at the bottom of each letter page?
<knome> yep
<belkinsa> Thanks cprofitt, I will look at them after my finals today or tomorrow.
<belkinsa> Morning all.
<knome> hey belkinsa
<slickymaster> yes, it's better than the return to the face page that presently exists
<slickymaster> hey belkinsa
<knome> slickymaster, or scoll back up :)
<slickymaster> yes, either that or a back to the top link
<knome> one extra click too
<slickymaster> well, IMO it would look better just a back to the top link, right aligned than the inclusion of the banner
<knome> i don't know why people would want back at the top?
<knome> i mean, given that they have the navigation
<slickymaster> it's just a aesthetically issue, really
<knome> look at A
<slickymaster> :) I'm convinced
<knome> good
<knome> i'll go and edit those
<slickymaster> and it does spare an extra click
<belkinsa> See you all later.
<knome> bleh, surge protection
<slickymaster> knome: ?! where?
<knome> in the wiki.
<knome> i'm loading too much pages.
<slickymaster> :) easy does it
<knome> the alphabet pages are updated
<slickymaster> knome: tks
<knome> cprofitt: Signpost, ExternalGuides, Links should be merged
<slickymaster> as a matter of consistency I'm also adding the banner at the bottom of the helpful links page, the AlterationsToNewDocs and ToBeReviwed pages
<slickymaster> knome: ^^^
<knome> sure, if you wish to
<knome> slickymaster, is there any reason to gather pages in ToBeReviewed instead of using categories and/or tags?
<knome> slickymaster, or is the page mostly used for "proposed" pages for NewDocs, and if yes, shouldn't that rather be handled in mailing lists?
<knome> cprofitt, i'm afraid pages like https://help.ubuntu.com/community/link%20to%20Streamzap%20remote%20and%20VLC are never going to be "ready"
<knome> cprofitt, what's with the translated pages?
<slickymaster> knome: the point of ToBeReviewed is to have a place where pages that where tagged could be placed when removed from NewDocs
<slickymaster> knome: but yes, it should be handled in the mailing lists
<slickymaster> were tagged ^^
<knome> mhm
<slickymaster> knome: about your mail regarding the merge of those 4 pages
<slickymaster> what do you mean exactly?
<slickymaster> making just one page of the four and linked it from the https://help.ubuntu.com/community/OtherResources page?
<knome> slickymaster, for example, yes
<knome> slickymaster, i don't see any reason to maintain 4 different pages
<slickymaster> I see
<slickymaster> I can do a draft of such a page and then ping to see what you think of it
<slickymaster> knome: ping you ^^
<knome> sounds good
<knome> and please email the list telling where you're drafting that so others can chime in and help
<knome> i think the starting point could be listing all the links in the page
<knome> then start moving them in categories one by one
<slickymaster> I'll also inform the rest of the NewDocs involved to see what they have to say
<knome> (and possibly rethinking their names)
<slickymaster> knome: when you say rethinking are you referring to the links' names?
<knome> yep
<slickymaster> ok
<knome> maybe the page count in the external guides isn't the most important thing
<knome> for example
<slickymaster> the ordered list, right?
<slickymaster> knome: one thing though
<knome> i don't think it matters what we use in the beginning
<knome> yep?
<slickymaster> seeing the structure you have right now in the https://help.ubuntu.com/community/OtherResources where would this new page fall under, as there are a huge variety of topics resulting from the merge of those 4 pages?
<slickymaster> under the more help rexources?
<knome> i think we need to see how the categories look like before deciding on the structure
<slickymaster> knome: but implies that every each of the links that are going to be merged must be correctly tagged, right
<slickymaster> ?
<knome> basically we also want to make the page as accessible for editors in the future
<knome> correctly tagged in what way?
<slickymaster> with the propper category tag
<knome> well, in a way yest
<knome> but what i was thinking
<knome> first, copy & paste all the pages as the content for the sandbox page
<slickymaster> yeah
<knome> and then start working with those, so you can reuse the content easily
<knome> after the categorising stuff is done we can look more closely how we want it formatted
<knome> i don't think there's any sense to start formatting it before that, because it only makes editing harder
<slickymaster> I see now what you mean
<knome> and because we can't know how many links there would be per category
<slickymaster> I was going in a completely distinct direction
<knome> (and if they are useful in this listing, or if they should rather be moved to pages that cover that exact subject)
<slickymaster> yeah, basically is to have an alphabetic listing (of all the links of the four pages) in the sandbox, by category, am I assuming correctly?
<slickymaster> knome: ^^
<knome> yep, the "by category" is the most important aspect at this point, i think
<slickymaster> knome: OK. I'll do it and hopefully I'll have something for you at the weekend
<knome> cheers
<cprofitt> hello all
<knome> hey cprofitt
<knome> got to eat
<knome> bbl
<cprofitt> knome: not sure on translated pages -- not if they should be there or not
<knome> pleia2 thought we should keep them
<knome> but i'm off eating, bbiab
#ubuntu-doc 2013-12-10
<belkinsa> Hey all, I heard that work got done today on the wiki.
<knome> oops :)
<knome> hey belkinsa; slowly but steadily...
<slickymaster> well, speaking for myself I'm ashamed to say that it wasn't that much
<slickymaster> knome, good, you're here
<belkinsa> That's good to hear.  Slow and steady is what we need.
<belkinsa> Even with a Jam.
<knome> slickymaster, when am i not?
<slickymaster> that's the million dollar question ;)
<belkinsa> slickymaster: Does NewDocs have a IRC channel or is not needed?
<slickymaster> regarding the links merge and particularly the categories issue
<slickymaster> were you thinking just main categories or were you thinking on diving deep within those main categories
<knome> whatever seems natural
<slickymaster> no it doesn't belkinsa, mainly because the rest of the team isn't used, or ever has tried, irc
<slickymaster> knome, ok, the way I see it, I'll have to force a little structure downwards in some of them
<knome> that's fine
<slickymaster> like in hardware for instance
<slickymaster> ok
<belkinsa> Would be a bad suggestion to suggest it?  Or would the UF/mailing-list (of the team) be still fine?
<knome> fortunately we're not working with printing presses and hard and close deadlines
<knome> (i hate that)
<slickymaster> Yes, today I had a major failure on a Oracle database and waste pretty much my day trying to solve it just to admit that I had to put into production the last available update
<knome> heh. :)
<knome> that's reversible
<knome> "we need a new ad... the deadline was 24 hours ago, can you make it in the next 15 minutes?"
<knome> that's not.
<slickymaster> yeah, but there's always a terrible headache associated with
<slickymaster> belkinsa, I think it would be a fabulous suggestion. The UF/mailing list drives me crazy, believe me :P
<belkinsa> On it.
<slickymaster> :)
<slickymaster> you see why you are regarded as too valuable asset?
<slickymaster> ;)
<belkinsa> Yes, I do.
<belkinsa> Sent and i hope that made sense
<slickymaster> give a sec,
<slickymaster> ah just in
<slickymaster> replying
<belkinsa> Thank you for your support on this suggestion.
<slickymaster> belkinsa, thank you for that brilliant idea
<belkinsa> Not a problem.
<slickymaster> cy tomorrow guys and gals
<belkinsa> See ya.
<cprofitt> hello all
<belkinsa> Evening to you.
<cprofitt> how are you doing belkinsa ?
<belkinsa> I'm tried and busy...working on a online final that is do at midnight today.  Looking for SNPs in a gene.
<cprofitt> sounds complicated, but interesting
<belkinsa> Yeah, without the proper software, it's not fun.  And the BLAST datebase program that's online doesn't have the freature that I need.  It seems to only work on Windows.
<cprofitt> that would make it difficult
<belkinsa> Yeah, I had to get the SNPs that are present in our "class" population from a class mate.
<belkinsa> But I know my winter break project will be.  Learn how to use UGENE.
<cprofitt> would have thought that such applications would not require WIndows
<belkinsa> Yeah...I bet BLAST runs on Linux.
<cprofitt> http://blast.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/Blast.cgi
<belkinsa> yeah, I know.
<belkinsa> It seems to be missing the  Query sequence part
<belkinsa> http://blast.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/Blast.cgi?PAGE_TYPE=BlastSearch&BLAST_SPEC=OGP__9606__9558
<cprofitt> http://toolbar.netcraft.com/site_report?url=http://blast.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
<cprofitt> it is running Linux
<belkinsa> Ha, was right but then again everything runs on Linux
<belkinsa> ;)
<cprofitt> ftp://ftp.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/blast/executables/blast+/LATEST/
<cprofitt> looks like you could run it in Linux, Windows, or OS X
<cprofitt> no .deb but there is an RPM
<belkinsa> Interesting.
<belkinsa> And usefull
<cprofitt> the tar.gz might work too
<belkinsa> It could but that's something that I will do in the next few days.  I need to finish this final. Thanks for your help.
<cprofitt> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK52640/
<cprofitt> yeah... best of luck
<belkinsa> Thanks.
<belkinsa> And sorry for having this in this channel, if it matters.
<cprofitt> yeah, it was off-topic
<cprofitt> my apology too
<cprofitt> very interesting stuff though
<belkinsa> Yeah.
<cprofitt> back to looking at the wiki
<belkinsa> Have fun.  ;)
<cprofitt> hey knome
<cprofitt> hey philipballew
<philipballew> cprofitt, hey cprofitt . How is life these days?
<cprofitt> good, good... you?
<philipballew> cprofitt, No complaints. just enjoying life in San Diego. How's New York treating you?
<cprofitt> cold
<philipballew> cprofitt, yeah, it hit 50 here today so I had to put a jacket on...
<philipballew> coldest it has been in a while!
<philipballew> How is the Linux world treating you. Up to anything fun?
<cprofitt> the world is treating me ok... including the Linux world
<cprofitt> night all
<knome> cprofitt, hey :) that was a bit late for me, and this is a bit late for you :)
<slickymaster> knome: ping
<slickymaster> knome: do you mind terribly if I make a change in the wording on the middle box of https://help.ubuntu.com/community/
<knome> slickymaster, not at all
<slickymaster> knome: thing is that presently the Most popular post boxes refers to posts rather than pages
<slickymaster> I think the proper term should be "pages"(!) Posts are what we do in forums and on blogs. Pages are what we have in wikis
<slickymaster> I just wnat to change from Most popular post to most popular pages in the box tittle
<slickymaster> do I have your ok?
<slickymaster> knome: ^^
<slickymaster> knome: went ahead and proceeded with the change in the wording
<slickymaster> knome: about the merging of the links in those four pages. In the the cases that two sub-pages are presented don't you think I can go ahead and just insert the main page in https://wiki.ubuntu.com/slickymaster/LinksMergeSandbox to later we work on?
<slickymaster> knome:  here's an example, we have http://www.ibm.com/developerworks/linux/library/l-lpic1-v3-103-1/index.html and http://www.ibm.com/developerworks/linux/library/l-lpic1-v3-103-3/index.html
<slickymaster> knome: I was thinking of just adding http://www.ibm.com/developerworks/linux/library/ to the collection of links I'm building. what do you think?
<slickymaster> knome: and there's even a third sub-page http://www.ibm.com/developerworks/linux/library/l-bash/index.html
<cprofitt> knome: hello
<cprofitt> hey slickymaster
<slickymaster> morning cprofitt
<knome> slickymaster, yes yes ;)
<knome> slickymaster, yes, sounds fair to consider linking only the "top" page
<slickymaster> knome: it's a hell of a task I have to tell you :)
<knome> yep.
<slickymaster> my eyes are going ballistic
<knome> :)
<knome> i guess we could pick one or two of the CLI companions/cheat sheets
<slickymaster> knome: I think you should do the picking after I've finished (there's only two pages left for me to do, one of them being the signpost, which I consider not so complicated)
<slickymaster> knome: then we'll be in a better position to make any kind of judgment calls on what to leave, based on redundancy acuracy of content, etc
<slickymaster> knome: what do you think?
<knome> have you done working with LinksMergeSandbox for now?
<slickymaster> knome: what do you mean exactly?
<knome> can i poke around or do you want to keep the edit locks yourself? ;)
<slickymaster> knome: of course you can the edit might be locked because I'm currently working on it
<knome> so you haven't done working ;)
<knome> i'll let you continue then, i'll do other things meanwhile
<knome> bbl
<slickymaster> knome: ok
<slickymaster> we'll talk later
<slickymaster> knome: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/CommandLineResources and https://help.ubuntu.com/community/ExternalGuides are done with, only remaining https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Links and https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Signpost to be worked
<slickymaster> so feel free to poke around
<knome> aahh, you did it like that.
<knome> clever.
<cprofitt> thanks slickymaster
<cprofitt> knome: I thik I deleted about 15 pages yesterday
<slickymaster> cprofitt: np
<knome> cprofitt, i saw :)
<slickymaster> knome: like how?
<knome> slickymaster, you separated them in the categories straight
<knome> that's cool, np
<slickymaster> knome: yeah, we had agree on that, haven't we?
<slickymaster> agreed
<knome> i wouuld have done that in a different way, but that's cool as well
<knome> whatever suits you :)
<slickymaster> knome: I'm all hears to suggestions
<slickymaster> ;)
<knome> slickymaster, well you did it already
<knome> i would have simply:
<knome> copy all pages and make a LOOOONG page with all the links
<knome> then categorise
<knome> you did it page by page, directly separating them
<knome> which le(a)d(s) to the same outcome
<slickymaster> knome: yes, pretty much
<slickymaster> knome: one thing though, I've just checked a few of the target links
<knome> that's fine
<knome> i'm actually just checking them
<slickymaster> so I'm not sure if same of them still live or even if they still to the intended page
<knome> and seeing how new they are
<knome> etc
<slickymaster> knome: what I spoke about this morning
<cprofitt> you can always undelete a deleted page
<slickymaster> yeah
<cprofitt> using the AbandonedPages helps too -- you can see if a page is not linked before merging / editing
<cprofitt> I have not found a way to report on linkes going to a particular page though
<belkinsa> Wait, you can undelete a page?
<cprofitt> yes
<belkinsa> Is there a time limit to how long you have?
<cprofitt> not that I am aware of
<belkinsa> Okay.
<cprofitt> it works the same way reverting does
<belkinsa> I see.
<slickymaster> belkinsa, they're on a server so it's assumable they are nor really deleted
<knome> cprofitt, click the page title
<belkinsa> Gotcha.  And that's a good thing.  Undeletable pages.
<belkinsa> I mean, you know what a meant there.
<cprofitt> knome: ?
<knome> cprofitt, go to https://help.ubuntu.com/community/NewDocs
<knome> cprofitt, click the title "NewDocs"
<cprofitt> belkinsa: you just click on info an dyou see the previous versions
<knome> cprofitt, be shown a list with pages that link to NewDocs
<cprofitt> knome: cool.
<cprofitt> that is good to know
<knome> yep
<belkinsa> Yeah, I know about the info page.
<cprofitt> that makes this much easier.
<knome> and now check the url
<belkinsa> Had to do it yesterday
<cprofitt> belkinsa: when you delete a page it still has the information... the lates version shows a size of 0
<knome> cprofitt, i guess you can check any pagename, even if the page didn't exist
<cprofitt> knome: see the url... full search action
<knome> just replace the value GET parameter
<cprofitt> yep, I would guess
<slickymaster> wow knome, didn't knew about that one. That's pretty cool
<belkinsa> Thank you.  Maybe one day, I will apply be a wiki admin.
<cprofitt> belkinsa: I am an admin and I still don't know a great many of these things
<cprofitt> it is more about being careful than knowing stuff
<slickymaster> leaving and learning :)
<slickymaster> *living
<belkinsa> Yup
 * slickymaster needs to refresh his eyes
<belkinsa> Same.
<belkinsa> See ya all around
<cprofitt> interesting... I click on the title on the wiki.ubuntu.com and I do not get the search
<knome> cprofitt, it's not enabled there
<knome> at least in the same way...
 * cprofitt nods
<cprofitt> suspected as much
<cprofitt> with all this wiki activity I took the time to update my personal wiki
<knome> :)
<cprofitt> didn't want people to find it and see that it was out of date.
<slickymaster> you could risk it to be deleted by knome
<knome> ;)
<knome> not if it's in wiki.ubuntu.com
<knome> slickymaster, i updated the page
<slickymaster> yeah just kidding
<slickymaster> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/slickymaster/LinksMergeSandbox?
<knome> i'm not kidding... it might get deleted if it's a peronal page in help.ubuntu.com
<knome> slickymaster, yep
<slickymaster> TBO, I'm not being able to see your changes. What were they?
<knome> ctrl+shift+R
<knome> i added comments after the links
<knome> comments that should be visible in the page
<cprofitt> I deleted several personal pages on help.ubuntu.com/community
<knome> cprofitt, i deleted quite a lot...
<slickymaster> Yeah, see them now
<knome> hoping that will help us decide what to keep
<slickymaster> knome: how did you get that info? from where?
<knome> i went to the page and... looked
<slickymaster> damn, you do work fast ;)
<knome> ;)
<knome> i'm thinking if we really need man-like stuff?
<knome> i mean, why not just link to man?
<knome> or create a page that tells one how to use man
<knome> we could keep one of the two wallpapers/cheat sheets
<knome> preferably the first one, that looks better
<slickymaster> agree, and there are several similar situations
<knome> yep
<knome> i mean... bleh, man-like stuff never was really helpdul
<knome> helpful
<slickymaster> there are a lot of links to CLI usage, and they basically end up with the same type of content
<knome> yep
<knome> there was one that looked nice
<knome> but i forgot which it was
<knome> i'll remember by the url though
<knome> i'll continue with my digging, bbiab
<slickymaster> either that or we'll have to check one by one
<slickymaster> :P
<slickymaster> knome, cprofitt, well, gotta run for now. Have to pick up my kid at school. Will return after dinner
<slickymaster> night all
<belkinsa> See ya
<slickymaster> hi, belkinsa
<belkinsa> Hey there.
<slickymaster> belkinsa, what do you meant by  setting up the OP stuff in the newdocs mailing?
<belkinsa> OP =operators.  But was referring to when the main one is gone in case the channel picks up spam or something.
<slickymaster> yeah, I know what OP stands for
<slickymaster> but that's a good question and one I don't have answer for
<belkinsa> But if you look at this channel, there is no ChanSev or an OP around
<belkinsa> ChanServ*
<slickymaster> !ChanServ
<ubot2> Factoid 'ChanServ' not found
<slickymaster> yeah, apparently not
<belkinsa> Anyways...I created the room #newdocs if you don't mind.
<slickymaster> I'll discuss it with Unit123 or lderan in #xubunto-off
<slickymaster> of course not
<slickymaster> do you know how to set up the public logs for it?
<belkinsa> Unit123 (if he is Unit192) would know for sure
<belkinsa> I don't
<belkinsa> 193*
<slickymaster> it's Unit193
<slickymaster> yeah, that one
<belkinsa> Yeah, he should know.  And I think he lives near me.
<slickymaster> I'll solve it with him
<slickymaster> Ohio?
<belkinsa> Yup.
<belkinsa> I think he lives north west of me.
<slickymaster> I image it's a big state
<belkinsa> It's medium and we are scattered around it
<belkinsa> As the LoCo.
<belkinsa> Er, off-topic again.
<slickymaster> :)
<belkinsa> I won't mind if we talk in #newdocs
<slickymaster> belkinsa, did you saw I said about the logs in #newdocs?
<belkinsa> Yes
<slickymaster> did you locked the channel?
<belkinsa> Yeah
<slickymaster> LOL
<slickymaster> we'll get the hang of it
<belkinsa> Yeah
<belkinsa> I will
#ubuntu-doc 2013-12-11
<manchicken> Does anybody know anything about library documentation? Is that in the scope of this channel?
<slickymaster> morning all
<cprofitt> hello all
<slickymaster> afternoon all
<belkinsa> Hello there
<slickymaster> hi belkinsa
<knome> hey
<belkinsa> Hey there
<knome> my connection failed on me yesterday
<belkinsa> For IRC?
<knome> for internet
<belkinsa> Ah.
<belkinsa> I had my first disconnect from the IRC channels that I was in.
<slickymaster> hi knome
<knome> hello slickymaster
<slickymaster> knome: I'm putting https://wiki.ubuntu.com/slickymaster/LinksMergeSandbox on hold today because I have to finish the xfdesktop documentation for ochosi
<knome> sure, np
<knome> you probably noticed i did some more work on it ;)
<slickymaster> yeah, saw it
<slickymaster> and I made a small change n your work :P
<knome> i hope that makes it easier to cutn down on the number of links
<slickymaster> moved the http://www.psychocats.net/ubuntu/index link to the https://wiki.ubuntu.com/slickymaster/LinksMergeSandbox#News_and_blog_sites section
<knome> sure
<knome> free to poke around, my word isn't the law
<slickymaster> :)
<twkrimm_> The Ubuntu Document Team has the "Getting Started Guide" for various versions of Ubuntu availabel on www.lulu.com
<twkrimm_> There must be a reason
<twkrimm_> I wanted to order a printed document versin of LinuxCNC getting started and User manual from LULU but I am running into problems doing this?
<twkrimm_> How did the Document Team setup this up at www.lulu.com?
<twkrimm_> Does the docuemtn tema get any funds form this arrangement?
<twkrimm_> I would liek to convinece the LinuxCNC folks to do something similar
<twkrimm_> What do I need to do?
<slickymaster> twkrimm_: the right person to inform you on that is godbyk
<slickymaster> godbyk: ^^^
<twkrimm_> godbyk are you there?
<godbyk> slickymaster and twkrimm_ : I'm here now.
<godbyk> The Ubuntu Manual team creates a beginner's guide each cycle.
<slickymaster> hi godbyk, twkrimm_ has something to ask you regarding our printed version of the manual
<godbyk> You can download PDFs of the manual at http://ubuntu-manual.org/ or order printed copies by clicking the 'Buy this book' star on the front page.
<slickymaster> you already saw it :P
<twkrimm_> How did you setup the publishing arrangment at www.lulu.com
<godbyk> We originally used lulu.com, but encountered problems with some of their printers in Europe. So we switched to CreateSpace.com.
<twkrimm_> I want to do something similar with the LinuxCNC Getting Started and User Guides
<godbyk> Unfortunately, CreateSpace.com recently suspended some of our manuals because they apparently disallow CC-licensed material.
<godbyk> So now I'm searching for a new printer.
<twkrimm_> Are the USA printers OK for LULU?
<godbyk> twkrimm_: You just create an account at lulu.com and you can create a new book there. You upload a PDF of your book and that's it.
<godbyk> I haven't had any problem with the US-based printers.
<twkrimm_> I thought I had to be the owner, do they check for that?
<godbyk> One tip: make sure you don't have any transparency in your PDF. Their printers choke on that sometimes.
<godbyk> Hmm.. I'm not sure. I know that CreateSpace.com wants you to have exclusive publishing rights.
<godbyk> With Lulu.com, I don't know if they're that restrictive.
<godbyk> (It hasn't been an issue for me since the Ubuntu Manual Project itself is uploading the PDFs to Lulu.com.)
<twkrimm_> Somehow you set this up at LULU
<godbyk> They don't do any checking up front.
<godbyk> They assume you're allowed to print/sell the book you're uploading.
<twkrimm_> I guess I can try and see what happens
<godbyk> How is are the LinuxCNC guides licensed?
<twkrimm_> Is there a way I can set things up so a percentgae goes back to LinuxCNC group?
<godbyk> Perhaps you could convince the LinuxCNC guys to make their books available via Lulu.com (if you're not a part of the project yourself).
<twkrimm_> "How is are the LinuxCNC guides licensed?" I know that at least one of them is GFDL
<godbyk> You can set the price on the books, but any money you get would go you the account you specify.
<godbyk> When I upload the Ubuntu Manual guides, I set the price as low as they'll let me, so there are no royalties.
<twkrimm_> anythig else you can think of that I might need to know about??
<godbyk> Hmm.. not really. The set up process itself is fairly easy. You just upload the PDF of the book, fill in a form with title, author, etc., set a price, create a cover, and that's it.
<godbyk> You can also make the book private so only you can see it.
<twkrimm_> thanks for the help : )
<godbyk> If you run into any problems or have any questions, feel free to pester me. :)
<twkrimm_> I am new to the IRC channels. How do you know when I am on line?
<twkrimm_> did slickymaster send you a message?
<godbyk> I just got back to my computer and noticed the messages you guys had written.
<godbyk> You can also email me at <godbyk@gmail.com> if you prefer.
<twkrimm_> os you leave IRC up when you are on line?
<godbyk> I usually leave IRC up all the time, even when I'm away from the computer.
<godbyk> When I get back I try to catch up on the conversations to see if I missed anything interesting/important.
<twkrimm_> I unplug the network connection from my computer if Iamgoing to be away for a long time, I guess I am Paranoid
<godbyk> Or perhaps I'm just not paranoid enough. ;-)
<twkrimm_> thanks for all of the help
<godbyk> No problem.
<slickymaster> knome, am I wrong to assume that you haven't added any of the links associated to the signpost page to the https://help.ubuntu.com/community/OtherResources?
<knome> slickymaster, no, haven't added anything, just rearranged and removed some
<slickymaster> all of them added up makes up a pretyy big list
<knome> yep.
<slickymaster> well, moaning won't get it done
<knome> yep ;)
<knome> we should just cut the list down.
<slickymaster> no, I'll do it
<slickymaster> that way there will not be any chances of someone saying that we leave something behind
<slickymaster> by the way knome, when you got time please pay a visit to #ubuntu-newdocs
<pleia2> whose idea was it to subscribe me to all help.u.c pages
<pleia2> oh, that was me :(
<knome> hah
<phillw> pleia2: knome any chance of a quick chat?
<knome> i'm here
<knome> and can chat
<phillw> knome: you still xubuntu?
<knome> yup
<phillw> what plans do you have for a manual for 14.04?
<knome> we will keep updating and extending our docs
<knome> https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/xubuntu-t-docs for the complete list of projects/goals and work items
<phillw> so, no actual http://ubuntu-manual.org/
<knome> no plans to do such thing
<phillw> okies. Thanks
<knome> our docs will be online as usually at http://docs.xubuntu.org/ though, and i suppose it wouldn't be too hard to craft a pdf out of that either
<knome> pleia2, ^ random idea
<belkinsa> I like that idea because I think it's needed for all of the favours of Ubuntu.
<phillw> I ask here, as the -manual channel has been pretty quiet.
<knome> belkinsa, have you looked at the xubuntu documentation lately?
<belkinsa> No...I'm a Ubuntu user.
<slickymaster> phillw, the manual team hasn't been quiet, though https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0ApS28NMLnYJXdEdGQjRtUWtaOUZxREVzUldSOU5kc2c#gid=4
<phillw> belkinsa: making a manual, is quite a lot of work. I need to know that the manual project is still alive and then find people to help.
<slickymaster> phillw, ^^^
<belkinsa> What sort of skills does one need for the manual?
<knome> belkinsa, ...and a docs team member. you should check our docs; after that, i'd like to hear again if you think we need a manual :)
<slickymaster> phillw, the prepping stage of v. 14.04 has already started
<slickymaster> belkinsa, http://ubuntu-manual.org/getinvolved
<knome> belkinsa, (without knowing what other flavors are doing with their documentation, how can you know if they need another manual or not?)
<belkinsa> Good point.
<phillw> slickymaster: that's the 1st link I've seen! why no activity on #ubuntu-manual?
<slickymaster> we usually meet, but not at the beggining of the cycle
<knome> belkinsa, i guess one part of that is also that flavors probably do not need to cover the ubuntu core stuff, because that's done in the existing manual already :) so the scope for flavor documentation is quite a lot narrower...
<slickymaster> but the team is alive and already working, even though some more hands on deck would be appreciated
<belkinsa> Yeah, I think I was thinking about that.  Just over the core parts of that favour.
<slickymaster> phillw, you'd need to poke godbyk on it, as he's the lead on the manual team
<slickymaster> he's probably around
<slickymaster> godbyk, ^^^
<phillw> slickymaster: ta... I'm back on the -manual area now.
<godbyk> phillw: I know the Lubuntu team was going to try to create a manual for 14.04. I don't recall hearing anything from the Xubuntu team about it.
<knome> godbyk, you just did ^^
<knome> if anybody thinks something important is missing from the xubuntu docs (that seems to be xubuntu-related/-specific), please ping me with the subject you'd like to have covered
#ubuntu-doc 2013-12-12
<pleia2> phillw: the mailing list is a much better place to get updates from that team
<pleia2> re: -manual
<pleia2> https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-manual
<pleia2> ^^ mailing list attached to that team
<pleia2> knome: yeah, just spitting out a pdf from docbook would work best for us
<godbyk> Oh, yeah. If you guys have your docs written in Docbook, then it can generate a PDF for you.  (Getting it to look really nice might be another matter, though. ;-))
<pleia2> hah, one step at a time :)
<knome> *if* we want a pdf
<knome> we have those docs shipped on the image already, so they work offline as well as long as you have the media.
<knome> or an installed system
<godbyk> knome: Having a printed manual at hand is nice, too, sometimes.
<knome> yep.
<manchicken> Do we have a standard format for something along the lines of a hacker's guide to libapt? I can't find anything like that, and it's not the most straight-forward library to work with, so I've been debating on spending a little bit of time plugging away at it.
<belkinsa> cprofitt, the list of stat links you passed on to me aren't that useful. But it does show that the wiki is being used.
<cprofitt> belkinsa: good to know.
<cprofitt> belkinsa: I liked the AbadonedPages and OrphanedPages lists though
<belkinsa> Yeah, I just don't have those in my notes.
<knome> cprofitt, pleia2: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/CategoryHomepage
<belkinsa> What are those?  Old user wiki pages?
<knome> yes
<knome> the only ones that are left
<knome> well in that category at least
<pleia2> I think UndiFineD is long gone
<pleia2> and we can just nudge littlegirl about her page
<knome> pleia2, it's the undifined subpage i'm interested about
<knome> that's not just "i'll put poo together"
<belkinsa> Same.
<belkinsa> Was it meant to be a CategoryUserPage?
<pleia2> ah :)
<belkinsa> I guess the question is, do we need a such category for the user pages?
<knome> there is no question; i was just showing the progress on getting those purged; the category will go after we've cleaned the pages
<slickymaster> knome, three down, one to go
<knome> slickymaster, cool
<slickymaster> the signpost is the omly one left
<slickymaster> *only
<belkinsa> knome: Oh.
#ubuntu-doc 2013-12-13
<knome> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Applications/NavigationMenu vs https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Applications/NavigationMenu/Refresh
<knome> (in latter, you can also click the icons)
<knome> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/BuildingSoftwareReceipts is linked from the front page, but either of the pages listed aren't really helpful
<slickymaster> yeah, you're right about https://help.ubuntu.com/community/BuildingSoftwareReceipts knome
<slickymaster> being able to also click the icons is a plus in accessibility terms
<slickymaster> not to mention that the later is more visual appealing just for the fact that the icons are separated in individual boxes
<slickymaster> knome, the signpost page is a pain in the neck :P
<knome> yep.
<knome> slickymaster, re: links
<slickymaster> hein?
<knome> for OtherResources, i think it would be a good idea to add one more category, "More about the community", and link at least fridge and planet, possibly full circle, omg! ubuntu or others
<slickymaster> agreed, and there's also webup8
<slickymaster> phoronix and the lokes
<slickymaster> likes
<knome> i'm not sure webupd8 or phoronix are sources we want to push so high
<slickymaster> or are you just think of the ones that are somehow ubuntu related
<slickymaster> you alreday answer
<slickymaster> already
<knome> i think fridge and planet are obvious choices
<knome> full circle, isn't that "individual" as well?
<slickymaster> but I see you point
<knome> wepupd8 and phoronix have gotten facts wrong and not always checked them
<knome> so not sure we want to advertise them
<slickymaster> besides some issues focused on Python gimp and abiword, FCM is very +buntu oriented
<knome> i'm not leaning towards any way with omg! ubuntu, but i guess that has lovers and haters as well
<slickymaster> yes, you're right, I misunderstood you initially
<knome> yup
<knome> anyway, i should go to bed
<slickymaster> me too, just one last thing
<knome> yep?
<slickymaster> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/slickymaster/LinksMergeSandbox is done with for analyze
<knome> cool
<knome> we should get to that some day
<slickymaster> maybe tomorrow we can discuss it
<knome> yep
<knome> let's see if i'm not too busy with other things
<slickymaster> ok cy tomorrow knome
<knome> see you :)
<slickymaster> morning all
<knome> good day slickymaster
<slickymaster> good day knome
<knome> stupid surge protection on wiki
<knome> i'm not even opening a lot of links automatically
<knome> i'm hitting pages by manually editing the URL in the location bar
<slickymaster> :)
<knome> and again
<knome> and again
<knome> and again
<knome> >__<
<knome> ...and again
<slickymaster> knome: since I've finished https://wiki.ubuntu.com/slickymaster/LinksMergeSandbox if you have something else I can help you with, ping me
<slickymaster> if not I'm going to start to work on https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual-tests/+bug/1256898 and https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual-tests/+bug/1256894
<ubot2> Launchpad bug 1256898 in Ubuntu Manual Tests "Test Needed : xfce4 session handling" [Undecided,In progress]
<ubot2> Launchpad bug 1256894 in Ubuntu Manual Tests "Hidden panels' popping up missing from testcase" [Undecided,In progress]
<knome> i can't. the wiki doesn't let me load new pages :)
<slickymaster> LOL
<knome> what's the default icon set in ubuntu?
<slickymaster> no idea
<knome> slickymaster, want to do a favor? :P
<slickymaster> knome: of course. You know you don't have to ask
<knome> hehe
<knome> okay, first, remind me of your email address
<slickymaster> slickymaster at gmail
<knome> i'll send you an email with attachment
<knome> please post the contents of that file as the new content for IconsPage
<knome> i've also attached a message you can use as the comment
<knome> ta
<knome> stupid wiki keeping me from editing
<slickymaster> ok
<knome> now i should find a nice-looking, CC-BY -licensed winter/christmas photo
<slickymaster> yeah, something snowy
<knome> -SA is fine, -NC not (want to be on the safe side, even if i know the original author would never see that photo)
<slickymaster> better to play on the safe side
<slickymaster> knome: you do mean to replace the entire content of https://help.ubuntu.com/community/IconsPage rught?
<slickymaster> right^
<knome> yep, the entire content
<knome> the diff is some *-characters
<slickymaster> just to be sure
<knome> to denote icons i'll remove later
<knome> well if you mess it up, we can always revert
<slickymaster> nopes, it's done
<knome> ta
<slickymaster> you should be getting the nottification
<knome> yep
<slickymaster> it looks good
<knome> yep, it's fine
<slickymaster> gotta go lunch now
<knome> bon appetit
<slickymaster> talk to you latter
<slickymaster> the same to you in case you haven't lunched already
<knome> not yet, and thanks :)
<knome> surge protection again
<cprofitt> hello guys...
<cprofitt> yeah.. can't do tons of edits at the same time... it will block you
<cprofitt> thanks for working on the icons page
<knome> no problem
<knome> cprofitt, where was the 32px icon page again?
<slickymaster> knome: don't you think that http://www.debian.org/doc/manuals/ should also be added to OtherResources?
<knome> possibly
<knome> there's also more links in /Applications
<slickymaster> knome: care to give the parent url for /Applications :P
<knome> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Applications
<slickymaster> I'm assuming that you went through this one with a very thin comb
<slickymaster> what I mean, knome, is that the justification for maintaining all those links is already checked by you
<knome> nope
<knome> i removed some of the ones we obviously want to drop
<slickymaster> hmm, np
<slickymaster> I'll go through each and every one and the ones I'll see as dubious and/or candidates for removal will add them to the LinksMergeSandbox page for further analyze and discussion
<slickymaster> knome: ^^^
<knome> sure
<knome> bumpy ride with connectivity again
<knome> cprofitt, pleia2: i'm so going to spam your inbox in the following minutes.
<pleia2> when are you not?
<knome> well.. when i'm sleeping?
<pleia2> :)
<knome> expect a worse spamming this time though
<knome> pleia2, cprofitt: you might want to look at IconsPage, even if it is still WIP
<knome> aaaagh stooopiiiid
<knome> pleia2, did you check that out?
#ubuntu-doc 2013-12-14
<pleia2> knome: no, but I will in 3 minutes
<knome> hehe, ok
<pleia2> pretty icons
<knome> yep
<knome> and lots of renaming and stuff
<pleia2> old ubuntu logo
<knome> yep, still stuff to do
<pleia2> what is Un ubuntu?
<knome> universe
<knome> :|
<pleia2> it's terrible :)
<knome> yes
<pleia2> looks like I made it
<knome> lol
<knome> no, it looks better than that
<pleia2> hahah
<knome> pleia2, btw, if you find pages that have ugly icons, but which aren't from IconsPage, ping me
<pleia2> ok
<knome> i guess i'm interested :P
<knome> not really, but...
<knome> i've edited hundreds of pages
<pleia2> I edited one
<knome> thanks for the encouragement ;)
<pleia2> :D
<knome> yay, down to 14 pages with IconUsers.png
<knome> pleia2, yeah you're right. he's teh boo
<pleia2> pretty sure I've banned him from -women more than once
<knome> oh bah. i need to go to sleep
<pleia2> yes
<pleia2> it's dark here
<knome> the icons page is clean!
<knome> cprofitt, pleia2
<knome> new proposed tags: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Tag/RefreshTags
<phillw> knome: love the new tags!
#ubuntu-doc 2014-12-09
<sotrdofthsstarwa> I pushed a modified branch up to launchpad and submitted a merge request, only to find that I'd forgotten "sudo" at the beginning of my edit.  What's the best way to fix that, do I have to fix it, run "bzr push" again, and then submit a new merge request?
<sotrdofthsstarwa> ping pmatulis
<sotrdofthsstarwa> Got your ears on?  I've got a question about lp:1354657
<pmatulis> morning
<pmatulis> sotrdofthsstarwa: i don't think you need to submit a new one
<pmatulis> sotrdofthsstarwa: a push should be all that is required
<sotrdofthsstarwa> pmatulis, Oh really, good to know.  Sorry for jacking it all up then with a new merge request
<pmatulis> sotrdofthsstarwa: not a problem at all.  it doesn't really matter.  thanks for helping
<pmatulis> sigh... http://ubuntuserverguide.com/
<sotrdofthsstarwa> hahah what
<sotrdofthsstarwa> Creation Date: 30-apr-2012
<sotrdofthsstarwa> How long has the actual ubuntu server guide been around?
<pmatulis> sotrdofthsstarwa: May 2011
<pmatulis> sotrdofthsstarwa: but i don't understand that date b/c we have a 10.04 guide
<pmatulis> https://launchpad.net/serverguide
<sotrdofthsstarwa> Maybe it got written post-hoc?
<pmatulis> yeah, could be that it was not organized back then
<sotrdofthsstarwa> I kind of assumed that it was in existence before the launchpad project was created
<pmatulis> yeah
#ubuntu-doc 2016-12-14
<mjsilva> hey guys there's a command option error in this doco https://help.ubuntu.com/community/TransmissionHowTo to "Remove a specific torrent" the command should be "transmission-remote -n 'transmission:transmission' -t 3-r" notice the -r at the end
<mjsilva> ups the right command is "transmission-remote -n 'transmission:transmission' -t 3 -r"
<mjsilva> forgot the space
<mjsilva> not sure if this is the best place to report but I couldn't edit without going through what looks like a major veto process :P
#ubuntu-doc 2017-12-11
<Guilleavis7> Hello
<Alex_____> Hi
<davidcalle_bluef> Alex_____: hello, and welcome o/
<Alex_____> I got a task from Google codein thats why I am here
<davidcalle_bluef> Ah, cool, let us know if you need any help with the task
<Alex_____> Read the How-to tutorial and pay special attention to page 8 to see how the site can be built on your own machine.
<Alex_____> whats thsi
<Alex_____> this
<davidcalle_bluef> Well, read the tutorial and you will find out :) The idea is to download the source code of the website and to run the website from your own computer.
<Alex_____> hows its done pls help
<davidcalle_bluef> Alex_____: it's explained in the tutorial
<davidcalle_bluef> Take it from the start, one page at a time
<Alex_____> where I should find the tutorial
<davidcalle_bluef> https://tutorials.ubuntu.com/tutorial/tutorial-guidelines
<Alex_____> Thnkuu
<Theo_> hi
#ubuntu-doc 2017-12-12
<mun_> hi evilnick, degville, pmatulis and davidcalle
<mun_> i am happy to meet you
<harshit_mewara> hi
<Nikhil> Hi
#ubuntu-doc 2017-12-13
<EmeraldKnight15> hello
<Tiger_> Hello
<kaine119> hi!
<Arko_> Hi
<Termi1878> hi guys!
<Termi1878> I've got a problem with how-to tutorial. I've done everything like in instructions and after making a website with docker I get white screen in Mozilla with Ubuntu tutorial on tab title.
<degville> Hello Termi1878!
<degville> what's the URL in Firefox?
<Termi1878> localhost
<Termi1878> But that's not only white page, but it looks like a background of the site without everything
<degville> http://localhost:8016/?
<Termi1878> yup. I write that and after "enter" this coming to just localhost
<Termi1878> sry, it is like you wrote
<Termi1878> And I dunno what to do. I think that I built site properly
<degville> It sounds very close. Could you try pressing ctrl+c in the window you've typed './run' into?
<degville> that will stop the server
<degville> and then try ./run again.
<degville> and then maybe paste the output in the terminal as you see it into here?
<Termi1878> Just copy  and paste that?
<degville> yeah, it should only be a few lines. This is what I get:
<degville> yarn run v1.2.1
<degville> $ echo 'To build site, please use build-all'
<degville> To build site, please use build-all
<degville> Done in 0.12s.
<degville> yarn run v1.2.1
<degville> $ npm-run-all 'serve-examples {@}' --
<degville> 2017/12/13 17:30:38 Serving on http://localhost:8016
<degville> y
<degville> (not the y at the end :) )
<Termi1878> I've got everything just like you
<Termi1878> yarn run v1.2.1 $ echo 'To build site, please use build-all' To build site, please use build-all Done in 0.13s.   yarn run v1.2.1 $ npm-run-all 'serve-examples {@}' -- 2017/12/13 17:29:35 Serving on http://localhost:8016
<degville> how about if you run './run serve examples' instead?
<Termi1878> same, "white" background, tab with "ubuntu tutorials" and sign.
<degville> could you try entering 'http://localhost:8016/tutorial/example-tutorial#0' as a URL?
<degville> (that would take you directly to the example tutorial).
<degville> my best guess is that something when wrong when building.
<Termi1878> same
<Termi1878> nothing changed
<degville> nothing to do with what you did, but I've sometimes had problems like this when the build misses something out for some strange (network?) reason.
<Termi1878> ;((
<Termi1878> And what I have to do now?
<degville> Termi1878: you obviously totally understand the process though, so there's going to be no worries in passing you for the task.
<degville> If you've got the time, I'd make a new clone of the repository, and run the run script again to rebuild everything.
<Termi1878> Well, thank you. But you know, I will have to know what I did wrong.
<Termi1878> Yes!
<degville> Is this on Ubuntu? Xenial?
<Termi1878> Ubuntu
<Termi1878> 16.04 lts
<degville> cool. It should definitely work as described then.
<degville> (meaning that it's likely a problem out of your control)
<Termi1878> Yup. I tried to do something with that, but I've got no time and this is my second try.
<Termi1878> So, Do I have to do something with task, submit for review or something? I will still try to understand that
<degville> Yes, exactly. If you submit it for review I'll pass it.
<degville> maybe when you get some time give it another go and let us know what happens, because it obviously shouldn't be happening.
<Termi1878> Done!
<Termi1878> What do you mean with "another go"?
<degville> I mean clone and run again, effectively a fresh install.
<Termi1878> Okay!
<degville> (I've only just seen all the history of you trying to get this to run previously!)
<Termi1878> And you see any problem?
<Termi1878> problems*?
<degville> Not obviously. It should work. I just mean you've given this a lot of effort!
<Termi1878> Yes! I really tried to do this, because it is for beginners and felt so stupid about that
<degville> Termi1878: You shouldn't; you've done nothing wrong. If there's a failure, it will be with our system as it should clearly complain.
<Termi1878> Yeah, but I didn't knew about that before I talked with You
<degville> well, it's really difficult to troubleshoot these kind of problems remotely. I'm frustrated we can't find the issue, as it should  definitely 'just work', and yet you've tried both a VM and native install.
<Termi1878> Yup ;( But I'm doing now a fresh install, so maybe will work this time.
<degville> so have the same problem on new installs suggests something outside of those installs, maybe your local networking environment, for example.
<Termi1878> Well, after fresh install - exactly like before problem
<degville> A long shot maybe to try shift F5 in Firefox (if you've not already), as this will override the cache, incase the partially loaded page from there is taking priority.
<degville> (to reload the page I mean)
<Termi1878> Same problem
#ubuntu-doc 2017-12-14
<Carson> Hi evilnick, degville, pmatulis and davidcalle, im from the google code in
<Tarun> hi
#ubuntu-doc 2017-12-15
<fuyuki> hi!
<fuyuki> hi @degville
<evilnickveitch> fuyuki, have you done this task? https://codein.withgoogle.com/dashboard/tasks/6574351660875776/
<fuyuki> not yet sir
<evilnickveitch> you should try and build a local version of the tutorial site - https://tutorials.ubuntu.com/tutorial/tutorial-guidelines
<evilnickveitch> good luck then :)
<Kiren> Hii
<davidcalle> Good morning o/
<Hari> hi
<Guest2753> hi everyone
<Guest2753> can you please help me
<Guest2753> anyone
<davidcalle> Hi Guest2753 o/
<davidcalle> Sure
<Guest2753> fine
<Guest2753> i need a documentary about this
<Guest2753> can You?
<davidcalle> I'm not sure I understand, about what?
<Guest2753> i need how to tutorial
<Pkay> Hey
<Pkay> Anyone?
<davidcalle> Hey... o/
<Kamal__> Hi
<Kamal__> I am ingci
<Kamal__> GCI
<Kamal__> Currently i m working on a task
<siddubey_> hi
<Vedu_> Hi everyone
#ubuntu-doc 2017-12-16
<Arni> Hello evilnick, degville, pmatulis and davidcalle, I just joined today!
<DC> int a,b,c
<Omm> Hi
<Rushi> Join
<Rushi> Join team
#ubuntu-doc 2017-12-17
<Nikinish> Hi
<sushant> hi
<sushant> hi mentors
<rach> hey
<rach> i am here to complete a task given by google code in
<rach> and i have no idea how to do it
<rach> i am completely clueless
<rach> i need help
 * davidcalle needs to add a note to the task about patience and the possibility of people not being around :)
