#ubuntu-accessibility 2011-04-04
<TheMuso`> Ok the on-screen keyboard profile has been switched to classic GNOME./
<popey> TheMuso`: do you know of any decent documents aimed at developers to help them make accessible applications?
<popey> TheMuso`: like gnome/gtk guidelines
<TheMuso`> popey: Not that are current I'm affraid, there used to be guides for GNOME, but they haven't been updated for quite a while.
<TheMuso`> And I don't even know where to find them. There may be something on live.gnome.org/Accessibility.
<popey> thanks TheMuso` 
<TheMuso`> popey: np
<Pendulum> just in case people weren't aware, UndiFineD is going for membership at tomorrow's EMEA board meeting :)
<UndiFineD> yes ! :)
<UndiFineD> oh and happy birthday popey 
<popey> thanks UndiFineD 
<UndiFineD> do you have special plans ?
<popey> I'm at work :(
<Pendulum> UndiFineD: if I haven't left you a testimonial by this time tomorrow, can you poke me?
<popey> will go home early and eat steak, cooked perfectly, by me :)
<Pendulum> (I want to write one, I'm just trying to decide what to say :) )
<Pendulum> popey: at least the food sounds yummy?
<UndiFineD> thanks
<UndiFineD> will do
<UndiFineD> steak , it should be a meal of it own
<UndiFineD> or perhaps a foodgroup
<Pendulum> I thought it was a meal of its own
<Pendulum> informal pole (i'm also sending this to the mailing list) for a meeting on wednesday are people better with 2200 UTC or 2100 UTC?
<Pendulum> *poll
 * charlie-tca prefers 2100UTC
<AlanBell> 21:00 is best for me
<Nafai> Pendulum: either is fine with me at the moment
<UndiFineD> aw thanks alan
<Pendulum> UndiFineD: do you have a meeting time opinion for wednesday?
<UndiFineD> anytime is ubuntu time
#ubuntu-accessibility 2011-04-05
<Pendulum> TheMuso: do you have a preference between a meeting at 2100UTC and 2200UTC (Wednesday)
<TheMuso> Pendulum: 2200 would be much preferable, ut I can make 2100 if absolutely necessary.
<TheMuso> Its worth noting that I am now UTC +10.
<Pendulum> okay, so 2200 is 8AM for you?
<TheMuso> Yes.
<Pendulum> (I've never been quite sure what timezone you were in so that is very helpful, thanks!)
<TheMuso> I am usually close to the point of being at the computer by then.
<TheMuso> So actually getting to the computer and attending the meeting is no proble, :)
<Pendulum> :)
<AlanBell> http://people.ubuntu.com/~alanbell/brandedonboard.png
<AlanBell> Pendulum: ^^ like that?
<Pendulum> ?
<Pendulum> AlanBell: sorry, I'm missing context here
<AlanBell> onboard with the ubuntu font and orange branding
<Pendulum> the orange hurts
<Pendulum> otherwise it's fine
<Pendulum> although I suspect that people who really need high contrast (since *gasp* some people have mobility and vision problems) might not like the black on grey either
<AlanBell> hmm, ok, I toned it down on the keys
<Pendulum> btw, the gasp was not aimed so much at you
<Pendulum> just the general brain parts of people that makes them assume that if you have one impairment you won't have others
<AlanBell> yeah
<AlanBell> I just had a thought that bringing this into the branding might unlock more Canonical people
<Pendulum> *nods*
<AlanBell> make it an ivanka issue
<Pendulum> haha
<Pendulum> I think part of the problem is that by and large the branding isn't great for disabled people
<Pendulum> the aubrigine isn't a horrid colour choice, but I know I'm not the only person with orange issues
<AlanBell> I would like to see more aubergine anyway
<Pendulum> I think that's true for most people other than czajkowski ;-)
 * AlanBell is in the same room as czajkowski
<Pendulum> hi czajkowski! o/
<AlanBell> sat in a dull presentation
<Pendulum> :(
<AlanBell> so the colours are tweakable quite easily
<AlanBell> http://people.ubuntu.com/~alanbell/onboard.png
<AlanBell> more aubergine, but still orange on keys with nothing important on them (shift and space)
<Pendulum> can you make the aubrigine paler?
<Pendulum> I know that makes it not quite conform to norms for keyboard shading, but right now it doesn't have great contrast with the black
<AlanBell> yes
<AlanBell> which one, the one on the numbers?
<AlanBell> or tab, return etc?
<Pendulum> bah, I meant orange
<Pendulum> the aubrigine is fine for me
<AlanBell> yes, I can do
<Pendulum> (I guess this says how good my brain function is this morning :-/ )
<AlanBell> this isn't programming or any special magic
<Pendulum> *nods*
<AlanBell> just editing /usr/share/onboard/layouts/Default-Alpha.svg with Inkscape
<AlanBell> just select keys and change the keycap colours
<AlanBell> I wanted to do fancier stuff, but that doesn't seem to work
<AlanBell> blending and shading and rounded corners etc
<AlanBell> but that doesn't get rendered in onboard
<AlanBell> I want to get the letters centered on the keycaps but I can't figure out how to do that yet
<Pendulum> *nods*
<AlanBell> what else needs to be done to onboard to make it look awesome?
<AlanBell> the things at the side to switch layouts are pretty confusing
<Pendulum> for me, the rounded corners is the biggest thing I can think of visually that would help
<AlanBell> and when an overlay layout pops up it looks a bit of a mess
<Pendulum> and, yes
<Pendulum> I didn't even realise those were supposed to do that!
<Pendulum> learn something new every day!
<Pendulum> I'd really like some labeling on those side layouts
<AlanBell> yeah, that should be possible
<Pendulum> I honestly assumed they were random blobs of colour
<Pendulum> because they don't contrast enough either
<JanC> assuming that most people will already change their theme to something that fits their vision, ideally Onboard would use system colours somehow...?
<Pendulum> JanC: I don't change my theme that much from default because most things the default is fine for me. It's specific colours (like the orange) that I have issues with most of the time
<Pendulum> maybe a GUI way of changing colours
<AlanBell> JanC: I kind of agree, however I think that requires more major surgery than I want to do right now
<JanC> well, there is support for that in GNOME, if the theme supports it...
<Pendulum> although I think it's probably solvable for most people without needing that
<AlanBell> right now it is a nasty dated brown
<Pendulum> yeah
<JanC> AlanBell: yes, I understand that it's not simple the way Onboard works now
<Pendulum> AFAIK, it's a semi-abandoned project that was a GSOC
<Pendulum> (which is also why it's Ubuntu-only)
<AlanBell> I want to update it and get it adopted properly by the design team
<JanC> is tehre a better alternative?
<AlanBell> really a new keyboard would be good
<AlanBell> there is no better alternative that is *already* on the CD
<AlanBell> not sure if there is a better alternative at all
<Pendulum> that's something that was discussed at the last UDS
<Pendulum> no one was sure about that
<AlanBell> yup
<Pendulum> I should find the person who ran that session and get him in here
<Pendulum> (I can't remember who ran it, will look at the blueprint)
<JanC> I guess replacing it might still be an option *if* it's proven to be better
<AlanBell> well right now, we might be able to get new colours and font through and in to Natty
<AlanBell> replacing it can go on the UDS agenda again
<Pendulum> I'm planning on picking TheMuso's brain about whether the fixes to a11y in Unity that will come next cycle will get onBoard working with everything in Unity or if there's going to need to be massive stuff done to onBoard
<AlanBell> right now the keyboard is out of scope for the design team
<Pendulum> yeah
<AlanBell> I want to show them that it is a brandable element
<Pendulum> I'm all for that idea :)
<Pendulum> john lea is supposed to be our design team contact (yes, we have one assigned to a11y)
<Pendulum> (except for on the website stuff, obviously)
<AlanBell> that is why I want to get the colours OK visually and I want to get some #dd4814 in there to make the design team think it belongs to them
<Pendulum> AlanBell: can you use it for the outlines of the keys?
<Pendulum> also, it could be used for one of the side layouts
<Pendulum> as in, to denote one of them
<Pendulum> because they'll be noticeable that way!
<Pendulum> maybe use #dd4814 for one of them and one of the stand-out aubrigines for the other?
<AlanBell> it seems to ignore stroke colours for the outlines of the keys :(
<AlanBell> trying to figure out how it loads the SVG
<JanC> what does it use to render SVG?
<JanC> hm, Cairo ?
<AlanBell> it does it key by key
<AlanBell> load_pane_svg function in KeyboardSVG.py
<Pendulum> JanC: yeah, it looks like it uses Cairo
<AlanBell> it is using cairo
<JanC> judging from the module you point to, it parses the XML itself and changes it because it has to adapt to keyboard layouts & such
<AlanBell> KeyGTK.py does the drawing of keys
<AlanBell> it reads positions and sizes from the XML and colours and the #ID of the key image
<AlanBell> yay, I have the stroke colour changed
<AlanBell> and it is now Ubuntu Orange
<AlanBell> what is really needed is an awesome on screen keyboard that is better than whatever the iPad had which is built in to the unity layer
<AlanBell> this is a short term improvement with the goal of getting the design team excited about on screen keyboards
<AlanBell> Default.onboard in the layouts directory is where to tweak the background colours of the three panes
<AlanBell> https://code.launchpad.net/~alanbell/+junk/onboard
 * AlanBell has rounded rectangles \o/
<AlanBell> full. of. awesome.
<AlanBell> http://people.ubuntu.com/~alanbell/awesomeonboard.png
<AlanBell> Pendulum: ^^
<erkan^> wow!
<erkan^> nice
<erkan^> I want pasta this picture on my keyboard, because that is easy contrast, but how, AlanBell ?
<AlanBell> erkan^:  https://code.launchpad.net/~alanbell/+junk/onboard
<AlanBell> bzr branch that
<AlanBell> and run ./onboard in the directory it creates
<erkan^> ok
<erkan^> i try
<erkan^>     bzr branch lp:~alanbell/+junk/onboard ?
<AlanBell> yeah
<AlanBell> which will create an onboard folder with an executable in it which should just run
<erkan^> and now, AlanBell ? after bzr branch lp:~alanbell/+junk/onboard ?
<erkan^> i have installed --> bzr branch lp:~alanbell/+junk/onboard ?
<erkan^> @acer-laptop:~$     bzr branch lp:~alanbell/+junk/onboard
<erkan^> You have not informed bzr of your Launchpad ID, and you must do this to
<erkan^> write to Launchpad or access private data.  See "bzr help launchpad-login".
<erkan^> Branched 245 revision(s).                                                    
<meetingology> erkan^: Error: "acer-laptop:~$" is not a valid command.
<AlanBell> ok, good so far
<AlanBell> cd onboard
<AlanBell> ./onboard
<AlanBell> I have to go get on a train in a sec
<erkan^> very nice!!! (-: AlanBell 
<erkan^> laterss
<Pendulum> AlanBell: I like it!
<Pendulum> in about 50 minutes is EMEA board meeting where UndiFineD is going for membership, it would be great if we could get some people from here to cheer him on!
<charlie-tca__> Certainly would! I gave him an endorsement
<Pendulum> I did too :)
<charlie-tca__> I will be there today
<charlie-tca__> Pendulum: congratulations on your board seat!
<Pendulum> charlie-tca__: thanks :)
<UndiFineD> Pendulum, with all the new hardware, when will you get your mecca suit ?
<Pendulum> UndiFineD: haha. no plans for that yet. although there may be some titanium rods in my future
<UndiFineD> I saw you had walked to the store see
<Pendulum> UndiFineD: used my powerchair
<Pendulum> it's just easier to say 'walked' :)
<UndiFineD> ah
<UndiFineD> http://fc04.deviantart.net/fs41/f/2009/010/2/0/Mecca_Suit_Girl_by_wayner8088.jpg
<AlanBell> bug 751891
<charlie-tca__> Doesn't seem that important unless it becomes usable, does it?
<AlanBell> it is
<charlie-tca__> Will the dev update it with ubuntu-font if it is not an ubuntu specific project?
<AlanBell> I have done it charlie-tca__ 
<AlanBell> http://people.ubuntu.com/~alanbell/awesomeonboard.png
<AlanBell> that could be an Ubuntu patch
<AlanBell> however the thing was created as an Ubuntu project in the first place
<AlanBell> no idea if any other distro uses it
<charlie-tca__> It was?
<AlanBell> upstream is here: https://launchpad.net/onboard
<charlie-tca__> Okay, I will confirm the bug then. I like onboard, and it would look good with an update. Just not orange, please!
<AlanBell> charlie-tca__: I want the design team to take ownership of it
<AlanBell> and make it work with Unity
<charlie-tca__> ouch
<charlie-tca__> I haven't really seen much out of them that m
<charlie-tca__> akes me think they will do it right for accessibility
<Pendulum> charlie-tca__: onBoard was a GSOC thing that AFAIK is only used on Ubuntu
<Pendulum> from what I can tell it was created specifically for Ubuntu
<charlie-tca__> honestly, des
<charlie-tca__> design team does not seem to care for accessible at all
<Pendulum> I occasionally get questions from the gnome a11y folks about it
<AlanBell> I don't care *why* they do it right, but if I can make the design team want a great on screen keyboard for tablets or whatever then that is great
<Pendulum> they actually sent an e-mail to phillw and me asking about a11y on the website redesign
<Pendulum> (today)
<Pendulum> but I'm not sure if phillw is actually doing any Ubuntu stuff anymore
<AlanBell> phillw has not been seen on IRC or mailing lists for over a week
<charlie-tca__> Pendulum: if only they listened when we give input
<Pendulum> yeah
<Pendulum> charlie-tca__: well, they're hoping to set up a skype call, so I'm hoping
<Pendulum> AlanBell: can I copy you on my reply to them?
<AlanBell> of course Pendulum 
<charlie-tca__> guess I better leave this alone now. 
<Pendulum> AlanBell: you should have mail
<Pendulum> charlie-tca__: well, since they're trying now rather than after launching the site or even showing mock-ups, I am going to be hopeful
<charlie-tca__> good luck with them
<Pendulum> UndiFineD is up in the meeting :)
<Pendulum> whoo hoo! well done UndiFineD!
<UndiFineD> :)
<charlie-tca__> Well, that was easy!
<AlanBell> yay
<charlie-tca__> You did it!
<charlie-tca__> AlanBell: I have to ask, wishlist or low importance? I can get either one
<charlie-tca__> Hard to push it too high, though
<AlanBell> low
<AlanBell> A cosmetic/usability issue that does not limit the functionality of an application 
<charlie-tca__> Agreed. Thanks
<hajour_> for info.i have contact whit jmarsden he do a lot for lubuntu.i have also give trough on him what i heard what was missing for info.he had take action whit that.also jmarsden checks also on speechcontrol wiki or it is good and stay good useble for light weight programs.i also know phillw have made or still is busy whitlast part to make whole sii wiki so accessible as possible and put much time in it
 * hajour_ always hears a lot  of info from people :)
<hajour_> charlie-tca__,  Pendulum  AlanBell ^
<Pendulum> ok
<charlie-tca__> ack
<hajour_> so he is very busy whit setting up the whole site from sii .that's what i have heard whit help from a few others
<hajour> Pendulum,  wanted to inform you about something. i not know what ischanged by or flash programs or firefox or chromium but chromium is most worst .frame in frames causes grey squares and screen freeze and much slow down connecting.this is bad .because in netherland  and most in europe banking and task/btw go s with a system what use frame in frame.in netherland all banking is going with internet.so if people cant banking wh
<hajour> it out problems they have no choice to go over on a other.and its not only by lubuntu also my daughters have it and they use ubuntu
<Pendulum> hajour: can you work with UndiFineD to file bugs about that?
<hajour> yes we can. think screenshots would most good thought
<hajour> sorry for so long story btw
<hajour> Pendulum, ^
<hajour> but because i not know the technical names for it and not speak very good english i needed to  describe it to let you know
<Pendulum> I know. You can attach screenshots to the bug report
<AlanBell> http://twitter.com/jonobacon/status/55373759716139009
<hajour> ok UndiFineD  go help me but he better report it i just discovered a mail from a bug i never answered to. i struggle to much with the reading.
<Pendulum> AlanBell: eep!
<AlanBell> indeed, I thought they were going to leave it to the last minute again
<Pendulum> I was hoping by the end of the week
<Pendulum> but now I'm just nervous
<hajour> so till i have a program what works bugs report better be done by others
<hajour> i tto Pendulum 
<hajour> -t
<hajour> but i hope you have understanding for it.about mail the bugs it will be done by UndiFineD  .i have discovered more time bugs and UndiFineD  have mailed the bugs reports and responded
<Pendulum> *nods*
<hajour> because i not want it go wrong because my worse reading
<Pendulum> hajour & UndiFineD if you file bugs that are accessibility related and are against Ubuntu, do feel free to add me to the bug
<UndiFineD> ok
<Pendulum> as a subscriber, I mean
<hajour> well this one is important to all users seams to me anyway
<hajour> that very long story i was 20 minutes busy whit typing that
<hajour> with
<hajour> and i hope i was enough clear btw i have done my very best on it
<hajour> Pendulum, ^
<Pendulum> yes
<hajour> Pendulum, that rings you using.i wonder which way i have to take (doctors)to get that to
<hajour> i now typing always with only 1 finger you see
<hajour> sometimes 2 if i need shift
<hajour> but its difficult
<Pendulum> hajour: www.silverringsplints.com is where I got mine from, but you need to be evaluated by a type of physiotherapist for them
<hajour> o god just walked a big spider close to me
 * hajour is afraid of all spiders what is bigger then half size of a mouse
<hajour> brrr
<hajour> UndiFineD,  have catch it and thrown away the house
<hajour> out of the house i mean
<hajour> :S there are more 
<UndiFineD> I just threw out its partner as well, who lost 2 legs
<UndiFineD> lets watch a movie, arachnafobia
<hajour> grrr
<hajour> just have read back.ok thanks for info Pendulum 
<hajour> i already had get the link from you Pendulum but not new how to get it
<hajour> have ad the link in favourites
<Pendulum> hajour: you might try e-mailing the company and seeing if they know of anyone in The Netherlands who they've worked with before
<hajour> a ok yes i can do that whit help from UndiFineD thanks for the info Pendulum 
#ubuntu-accessibility 2011-04-06
<Pendulum> TheMuso: So you were the only person who wanted 2200 UTC. I set the meeting at 2100 UTC, but IIRC you didn't have many (if any) items on the community blueprint
<Pendulum> and I can hold your items to the end of stuff so that you don't have to get up so early :)
<TheMuso> Pendulum: Ok thanks, I'll do my best to attend at that time anyway.
<TheMuso> Sorry, almost lost your message in the flood of disconnects I've been having. :)
 * AlanBell tries to kick off a discussion of bug 751891 in #ayatana
<UndiFineD> AlanBell, got a link ?
<AlanBell> more to the point, where is the bot?
<UndiFineD> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/onboard/+bug/751891
<UndiFineD> AlanBell, did you make that in some html ?
<AlanBell> no, it is onboard
<AlanBell> it reads some svg to get keycap positions and sizes and colours
<AlanBell> some python code changes to set fonts and other bits like the rounded corners
<AlanBell> it looks like this at the moment if you just run onboard: http://people.ubuntu.com/~alanbell/oldonboard.png
<charlie-tca> And we still can't even get a menu entry for it
<charlie-tca> since everybody knowws those who need a software keyboard can just type in terminal to start it, right?
<AlanBell> hmm, well you can do it with just the mouse, but you have to set it to launch on login and then log out to get it to run
<AlanBell> and type your password of course as that doesn't get it to run in gdm
<UndiFineD> yeah that would be great to have it available at least at login
<charlie-tca> And that and the ability to type in terminal is why they refuse to put it in menu at all
<AlanBell> arguably onboard should not need a menu option, but should just run if you don't have a keyboard plugged in
<AlanBell> but it doesn't do that as far as I know
<Pendulum> AlanBell: what about laptop users
<AlanBell> true, I was mostly thinking about touch screens and tablet devices
<charlie-tca> I keep of thinking of those disabled that can not type
<AlanBell> yes, but using what kind of pointing device?
<charlie-tca> straw, hitting one key at time?
<Pendulum> or switch users
<UndiFineD> there are laptops with touchscreens
<charlie-tca> Many U.S. Veterans have to use trackballs, since they can spin the ball with the entire palm, when the fingers don't work
<UndiFineD> indeed, trackballs are very usable too
<UndiFineD> and i suppose .. joysticks
<charlie-tca> Even seen some that use trackballs with the back of their hand, since it is fixed in position and won't move
<charlie-tca> joysticks are harder to use without fingers that work
<UndiFineD> I even have a new sidewinder in a box
<charlie-tca> tape all the fingers and thumb together with a splint or brace and try to use it
<AlanBell> whilst I do think it should be in the menu I still think it would be nicer if it just launched when you have no keyboard plugged in
<charlie-tca> You might have two people using the computer, one fully abled and one disabled. 
<AlanBell> sure
<charlie-tca> Although, yes, I agree. It would be really nice to have it launch when there is no hardware keyboard
<Pendulum> AlanBell: I think both solutions would be good
<charlie-tca> but what would that do to headless servers and stuff?
<maco> charlie-tca: no X anyway...
<charlie-tca> oh! Then it would be great1
<charlie-tca> oh! Then it would be great, even!
<AlanBell> yeah, on screen keyboard on a headless server is an interesting concept!
<charlie-tca> Got to ask... :-)
<leoquant> it makes me very frustrated and angry that most of all inovations comes from th spinoff from the war industry. pilots do use their voice and eyeball tracking to get their machines from te ground
<leoquant> and we disabled are waiting for solutions.....
<charlie-tca> War is one of those things that get almost unlimited funding for research
<leoquant> ;o0 9 o;
 * leoquant slashes his keyboard
<maco> charlie-tca: sad as it is
<maco> the US Congress is currently having a fight over the budget, which if they dont resolve this week, will result in a government shutdown
<maco> they keep talking about needing to cut spending...yet war spending seems to be untouchable :(
<leoquant> i am off, too angry to think
<charlie-tca> Yup, that is the way it works. I am interested in this shutdown. Most things are completely unaffected by government spending shutdown
<charlie-tca> those missiles used by the US in Libya cost 1.5 million dollars each, and will probably have to replaced :-(
<maco> necessary services keep running, such as emergency, police, and postal
<itsthelatte> Anyone attending the CSUN conference right now?
<charlie-tca> They are not part of the federal government budget, though
<Pendulum> I wish :(
<maco> charlie-tca: capitol police are
<charlie-tca> post office is now 100% funded by profits, police are mostly state and local, emergency are about the same
<charlie-tca> heh, I guess I don't count them
<maco> the national park service would close down
<maco> no more tours of the Washington Monument
<maco> right as Tourist Season is kicking in
<maco> charlie-tca: http://www.miamiherald.com/2011/04/06/2153836/who-stays-on-job-in-federal-government.html
<charlie-tca> Note most of congress and most of their aides get to keep working
<maco> well how else would they fix the lack of budget?
<maco> we'd be belgium!
<charlie-tca> Do they really need the aides? Can't the congressmen themselves do something?
<maco> the staffers do most of the drafting. the congress critters review it and then present it
<JanC> maco: we don't have a lack of budget  ;)
<maco> in the case of the one "necessary" personnel i know in a congressional office, that person makes sure email (and networking stuff in general) works so constituents can complain to the congress critter about their budget :P
<maco> JanC: was referring to the lack of government
<maco> or did you get one now?
<JanC> we don't have a lack of government either
<JanC> the old one is not allowed to go away until we have a new one, so...
<maco> ahh, so thats what the "interim" refers to 
<charlie-tca> The United States is 6 months into the fiscal year without a new budget. 
<maco> the zombie government ;-)
<maco> eep http://www.presstv.ir/detail/173460.html
<IdleOne> charlie-tca: no need for a budget if you have limitless credit
<maco> (what came up as breaking news when i googled belgium government)
<charlie-tca> heh, true. 
<JanC> legally the interim government has the same powers as any other government...
<charlie-tca> Maybe we could loan them some, and help them out :-)
<JanC> the issue is more that they don't really have a majority in parliament & senate anymore, so any decision that goes against the majority there risks getting overturned
<IdleOne> charlie-tca: who is this "we" and why are they loaning out my money?
<IdleOne> not that I have any
<IdleOne> but if I did I would want to know
<charlie-tca> The U.S. Government, and it is not "your" money, since they have none anyway
<maco> and since IdleOne isn't a USian
<charlie-tca> The U.S. government is trillions in debt, a few million would not matter, would it?
<IdleOne> probably won't make a difference no
<IdleOne> I do have USian childrens
<charlie-tca> The President wants to cut something like 6 billion this year, which won't even dent the national debt
<IdleOne> as long as he cuts in the right places, you know, eduction and health care.
<IdleOne> oh and adds to national defense
<IdleOne> this seems really offtopic for this channel though :)
<JanC> *national* defense?
<Pendulum> IdleOne: well, healthcare isn't really offtopic :P
<IdleOne> yes de fence that the nationals protect
<IdleOne> Pendulum: ahh good so I'll keep babbling about things I know nothing about :)
<maco> you may like http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XbWDEEytCmQ
<charlie-tca> That would be the fence on the US / Mexico border?
<maco> (more off topic politics stuff)
<maco> haha
 * Pendulum refuses to get into political debates today because she already feels sick :P
<IdleOne> charlie-tca: the ones all the illegal mexicans are going to build
<charlie-tca> The US built it already, they just have to go around it
<maco> charlie-tca: or over
<IdleOne> would have been cheaper to have the illegals build it.
<JanC> or under
<IdleOne> and probably better built
<JanC> there is always the sea, I guess, a bit difficult to put a fence there?
<AlanBell> ok, it is 21:00 UTC by my calculations
<AlanBell> Pendulum: want me to chair still?
<Pendulum> AlanBell: nope, I can do it
<Pendulum> (sorry lost track of time
<Pendulum> okay, meeting time!
<Pendulum> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Wed Apr  6 21:01:28 2011 UTC.  The chair is Pendulum. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/AlanBell.
<meetingology> Useful Commands: #topic #action #link #idea #voters #vote #chair #action #agreed #help #info #endmeeting.
<Pendulum> so who's here for the meeting?
<TheMuso> Hey folks.
<IdleOne> present but not sure I can offer anything.
<itsthelatte> Hey there
<Pendulum> yeah, this is mostly a follow-up meeting so I'm hoping won't be too long :)
<AlanBell> o/
<paul_h> I'm listening in :)
 * Pendulum pokes Cheri703 in case she has anything to add to the meeting :P
<Cheri703> I'm present
<Cheri703> am on the phone :)
<Pendulum> okay, so the purpose of this meeting is to go over what's been done on our blueprint and have a sense of what else we think we can fit in this cycle and what needs to get posponed
<Cheri703> not anymore :)
<Pendulum> #topic Natty Blueprint
<meetingology> TOPIC: Natty Blueprint
<Pendulum> #link https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu-community/+spec/ubuntutheproject-community-n-improving-accessibility-devel-and-info
<Pendulum> by the way, I apologize as I meant to clean up and see if there were things that could get changed in status earlier today, but I ended up spending most of my afternoon sick
<TheMuso> Thats ok, better that you get well.
<Pendulum> so I'm behind on a bunch of my things. I did start to talk to the doc team so I'm going to move that to done
<AlanBell> I am behind on the personas, but I do have another one to publish tonight hopefully
<Pendulum> also, TheMuso and charlie-tca, would it be fair for me to move most Unity testing things to postponed due to the fact that Natty is no longer our target for Unity?
<UndiFineD> o/
<TheMuso> Yes I think so.
<Pendulum> AlanBell: did we move from trying to get all the personas rough drafts done to working on getting final versions of each before moving on to the next?
<AlanBell> well the rough drafts are done, or at least the thinking about each of the characters
<Pendulum> okay
<AlanBell> I know who they all are, what their principal impairments are and we did the survey to get bits to put into the storys
<Pendulum> yeah
<AlanBell> Faisal is published
 * Pendulum changes 'rough drafts' to done :)
<AlanBell> Daniela is a draft on wordpress
<Pendulum> *nods*
<Pendulum> TheMuso: you've reported back pretty much all of the a11y that we know is working, right?
<TheMuso> Pendulum: Yeah I'm pretty sure I have, because there is not a lot. The launcher minus quicklists, and the top panel, and some indicators identify themselves properly.
<Pendulum> yeah
<Pendulum> okay, I'm updating the blueprint
<TheMuso> ok thanks
<Pendulum> I think the outstanding items that don't need to be postponed or aren't already in progress are with people who aren't here
<Pendulum> or are me
<Pendulum> (people can feel free to kick me about stuff I haven't done, don't worry) :P
<Pendulum> if you guys want to refresh and let me know if that looks accurate?
<TheMuso> Looks good to me.
<Pendulum> does anyone else have anything to add?
<Pendulum> (seriously, that's all I had for the meeting)
<TheMuso> Well, short and sweet is good.
<TheMuso> Allows me to get some breakfast and ptter around until its time for work. :)
<TheMuso> potter
<Pendulum> anyone else?
<Pendulum> I guess not
<Pendulum> #endmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting ended Wed Apr  6 21:22:00 2011 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/AlanBell . (v 0.1.4)
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://mootbot.libertus.co.uk/ubuntu-accessibility/2011/ubuntu-accessibility.2011-04-06-21.01.moin.txt
<AlanBell> I would like some people to have a look at the daniela blog post in a sec
<Pendulum> AlanBell: yep :)
<TheMuso> http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/news/2011/04/as-schools-shift-to-google-apps-blind-students-object.ars
<AlanBell> http://ubuntuaccessibility.wordpress.com/?p=65&preview=true does that ask you for a password?
<Pendulum> gives a page not found
<AlanBell> ok, I will have to publish it properly then
<AlanBell> http://ubuntuaccessibility.wordpress.com/2011/04/06/meet-daniela/
<AlanBell> any comments would be great, especially if it is stuff I can fix before the planet picks it up
<TheMuso> Damnit this stupid unity window decorator has some BAAAAAAAD focus issues.
<Pendulum> AlanBell: missing end of sentence under Life Goals
<AlanBell> so it is
<AlanBell> wonder how I was going to continue that bit
<JanC> TheMuso: the window *decorator* ?
<TheMuso> JanC: Not sure to be honest, it could just be compiz's window management...
<IdleOne> AlanBell: ....ability to use her laptop to gain more independence
<JanC> I have an issue with almost all windows ending up in the top left corner of the screen currently... under the launcher & the top panel  :-/
<IdleOne> I am guessing is where you were headed there
<JanC> all new windows
<JanC> and trying to find what compiz plugin might be misconfigured or this is just a bug
<Pendulum> AlanBell: probably better for 'ability to use her laptop to find new places to explore'
<charlie-tca> Sorry, had to put a gate back up and get snowed on again
<AlanBell> I put something about alarms, but I will add that too
<charlie-tca> I read the log, and I think you got it covered, though
<TheMuso> JanC: fun
<maco> AlanBell: on the video of the screen-reader install, you say "custom_partitions, thats not too insane" around 6:30 or 6:40 into it... would it be possible to redub it to not use "insane" that way?
<maco> 6:29
<AlanBell> oh :(
<AlanBell> probably not
<AlanBell> or I don't know how
<AlanBell> but I will redo the whole thing again at some point close to release or with the final release
<charlie-tca> I will write the new test case before monday. Next week we are testing Beta2, so we have to try again. :-)
<maco> ew, this video is just...
<maco> TheMuso: i'm sorry :(
<TheMuso> heh thats ok.
<AlanBell> maco: why don't you do the next version of it!
<charlie-tca> heh, progress
<maco> AlanBell: im not ewing at you doing it, i'm ewing at the wtfness of the results!
<maco> i do want to try a kubuntu install this way though
<maco> now that qt4-at-spi has now gotten into natty
<charlie-tca> maco: considering what he tried to do, it worked pretty good
<AlanBell> oh, I understood that :)
<AlanBell> yes, it would be great to do a kubuntu one
<maco> charlie-tca: the screenreader worked fine, the stupid labeling on the buttons, though!
<maco> and pages
<maco> "Page"
<maco> "page"
<maco> "page"
 * maco headdeks
<maco> oops
<charlie-tca> and shortcut keys and ...
<charlie-tca> and the thing doesn't work right out of the box, really
<charlie-tca> Although, we got a better screen-reader install than we had in 10.10p
<maco> AlanBell: haha "i do have a pound key, good thing i can see it" ... and if it said "do you have a pound key?" all us americans would go "wait does it mean # or Â£???"
<AlanBell> yup
<AlanBell> as I understand it #="Pound" has almost no basis at all
<charlie-tca> It's the abreviation we use in America for weight = pound
<charlie-tca> although I have no idea how it gets to be that.
 * TheMuso sighs. Some of the comments to that Ars article are really disappointing to read.
<maco> whats going on is its reading all the id="" on the stuff. id="" is used by the programmers to refer to the widgets so they can modify them programmatically (for example making a textbox uneditable if a checkbox is unchecked)
<maco> TheMuso: do you know what program is used to make the .ui files in ubiquity? ive only seen .ui for qt, but this is clearly gtk
<maco> and for gtk i just knew glade, but that makes .glade files
<AlanBell> I think it is glade
<maco> (by the way, is this reading as "dot you eye" and "dot glade" or just "ewwee" and "glade"? and 
<maco> erm, ignore that last "and"
<AlanBell> dot you eye and dot glade
<AlanBell> if anyone is going to UDS and is interested in the invisible dinner thing it would be great if you could leave a comment on the blog
<Pendulum> charlie-tca: are you going to UDS?
 * Pendulum is not
<TheMuso> maco: Something to do with glade/gtkbuilder.
<charlie-tca> I did not get the message yet
<TheMuso> AlanBell: Thanks for the heads up, must do that.
<charlie-tca> but I think so
<maco> ok. i'll look at a11y patches for the installer
 * AlanBell hugs maco 
<TheMuso> maco: Bearing in mind that I think a lot of the problems are webkit related...
<maco> TheMuso: yeah i know, but at least the gtk widgets could be sensibly labeled!
<TheMuso> This is true.
<maco> a lot of the things AlanBell ran into were the id="" being read because no accessible_name="" was given
<TheMuso> ah.
<TheMuso> Goes to show just how much I test the installer. :)
<TheMuso> If ubiquity supported LVM, then things would be different.
 * TheMuso uses LVM on all systems.
 * charlie-tca doesn't use LVM at all
<TheMuso> I use LVM because the software I use for building packages in chroots works best with LVM snapshots.
<TheMuso> And it allows me to easily resize filesystems without having to possibly break partitioning./
<maco> AlanBell: want to update that post's bug list? https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ubiquity/+bug/749653
<maco> that one i can fix at least. as i dig in, i'll see which others i can get through tonight
<JanC> TheMuso: btrfs should help solving that too
<AlanBell> I think I will remove [Undecided,New] from all of them
<TheMuso> maco: Ping me when done, as I have commit privs, and can look them over.
<maco> TheMuso: ok
<TheMuso> JanC: Yes but sbuild already works with lvm snapshots, which is good enough.
<maco> TheMuso: you have commit privs for ubiquity?
<maco> or referring to the package since you're a core dev?
<TheMuso> maco: Commit privs for ubiquity, I am on the installer team for slving just such accessibility issues./
<TheMuso> I need to use ubiquity more, but lack of LVM makes that difficult.
<maco> ah ok
 * maco raises an eyebrow at these .ui files
<maco> i think the reason titles never get read is that it's a frame
<maco> the stuff inside the frame is read, but not what's around it
<JanC> TheMuso: but btrfs is more likely to be supported in Ubiquity
<maco> because those titles? they're not in these .ui files
<maco> i probably can't tonight sort out how to make it inform the reader to pipe up when new text appears (such as "passwords don't match!") but small improvements...
<TheMuso> JanC: Yeah I know, but there is still the aprtitions/filesystem resizing issue.
<valorie> http://mdzlog.alcor.net/2011/02/07/a-diversity-statement-for-ubuntu/ <--- one fabulous comment at the end by a Debian user
#ubuntu-accessibility 2011-04-07
<frank> hello, does anyone know how to find the desktop effects in natty narwal?
<TheMuso> frank: What desktop effects are you looking for?
<frank> the ones that make my windows go wobbly for instance
 * maco branches ubiquity
<TheMuso> Gah he leaves... *sigh*
<TheMuso> maco: If we are unable to get these done for Natty, I know it would be useful to get them into Vinux.
<maco> TheMuso: there should be a tutorial for this
<maco> TheMuso: have you played with this before? i'm a bit confused with doing this programmatically instead of in the glade file
<TheMuso> Quick question for people currently in here. With the accessibility profiles, do you think its safe to assume that any new users created on an installed system should also have accessibility enabled?
<TheMuso> maco: Sorry I haven't.
<TheMuso> I am working with a patch from a regular contributor who thinks that any new user accounts that are created will want various accessibility bits enabled for their account.
<maco> oh i found the wiki page i had up earlier
<maco> http://live.gnome.org/GAP/AtkGuide#GAP.2BAC8-AtkGuide.2BAC8-GtkAtk.Using_GTK.2B-_and_ATK_to_Build_Accessible_Applications  <--
<maco> TheMuso: how do you use orca?
<maco> i'm confused
<maco> i'm trying to run ubiquity locally (and just not do the apply step) with orca to test, but orca isn't reading the ubiquity window at all
<TheMuso> maco: What do you mean?
<TheMuso> You need to enable accessibility for a start.
<TheMuso> And restart your session.
<maco> oh.
<TheMuso> And if you are running ubiquity in a KDE session, not everything is correctly set up.
<maco> i installed ubiquity-frontend-gtk
<TheMuso> Right.
 * maco sets up a vm
 * maco scowls
<maco> at-spi crashed while running that test
<maco> and quitting orca doesn't quit it
<maco> it asks are you sure, and if you click cancel, the "are you sure?" window closes and orca keeps running. if you click "quit" it does nothing
<maco> hmm or maybe it just takes forever
<TheMuso> Orca should quit when you click quit.
<maco> it apparently quits after a lag
<maco> wow, its really annoying using apt-get with orca running
<TheMuso> Disable speech with insert + s
<TheMuso> Then re-enable it with the same keystroke.
<maco> TheMuso: thank you
<TheMuso> np
<maco> it apparently doesnt show the partition stepif you're on an empty disk. 
<TheMuso> right
<TheMuso> maco: Does it totally freeze, or does it ask something different?
<maco> TheMuso: skips it
<TheMuso> ah ok
<maco> my first attempted-patch was to make the labels (instead of radio button id's) be read for the radio buttons on the partition page. so i need to actually have it come up ;-)
<TheMuso> Right.
<maco> TheMuso: so, programmatically, there ARE accelerators for Forward/Back -- i can see them now that gtk has failed to use a proper theme
<maco> when it looks like Windows 98, i can see that there are accelerators
<maco> (and they work)
<TheMuso> Heh wonderful.
<maco> TheMuso: im having a lot of trouble with testing. at-spi keeps crashing
<maco> hmm wait maybe this is my fault
<TheMuso> Thats weird, I don't ever get crashes here.
<maco> well, at-spi-registryd becomes non-responsive, and i never get the partition screen
<TheMuso> right
<maco> (im using today's daily live image)
<TheMuso> Sounds like ubiquity is doing something funky.
<TheMuso> How are you running ubiquity?
<maco> from the terminal
<TheMuso> Ok, are you running it with gksu?
<TheMuso> I think its trying to get root privs but can't.
<maco> oooh could try
<TheMuso> maco: It may also be worth running with the blindness a11y profile, as that will completely set things up such that things should work/
<TheMuso> i.e boot the image using an a11y profile, and then run ubiquity using gksu.
<maco> i did boot with the screen reader option
<TheMuso> Hrm ok, so trying with gksu/root privs is the next option.
<TheMuso> As ubiquity needs it.
<maco> i used gksu this time, and it still went language, "get updates from internet?", time zone, keyboard...
<maco> it should have asked about partitioning before the timezone stuff i think
<TheMuso> Yes it shoudl have. Is the disk you are trying to use pre-partitioned, or empty?
<maco> it should have an existing partition
<TheMuso> Right.
<TheMuso> Let me grab the latest daily, and have a squiz myself.
<maco> because im booting the iso over top of a maverick vm
<maco> its possible my changes just broke that .py and it fails silently
<maco> but i dont know how to make it fail LOUDLY
 * maco wonders if python has anything like "perl -c"
<TheMuso> I don't know.
<maco> oh i see. the little underlines for accelerators appear only when you hold down alt
<TheMuso> I disagree with that personally.
<maco> TheMuso: since thats no use if you cant see it happen?
<TheMuso> maco: No, for those who want to use them need to visually rpes a key before they know what they are.
<Nafai> dang it.  was there a meeting today?
<maco> yes
<TheMuso> Nafai: You didn't miss much.
<maco> TheMuso: its gotta be something about my changes
<maco> bcause i just tried it in a vm unmodified and it came up
<maco> though orca got silent after the first page, oddly
 * maco headdesk
<maco> i wonder if i just need to "import atk" ...
<maco> (and at-spi still crashed with my unmodified version)
<Nafai> TheMuso: Ok.  I meant to be here, but I was sleeping. :)
<TheMuso> maco: Could I see your changes? I think there are atk calls in the pygtk bindings but not entirely sure.
<maco> TheMuso: http://paste.ubuntu.com/590532 has the chunk i was adding in to ubiquity/plugins/ubi-partman.py
<TheMuso> maco: Thanks.
<maco> (and adding "import atk" didnt help)
<maco> putting that chunk in still kills that page
<TheMuso> maco: What does self refer to in this context?
<TheMuso> maco: Actually, there may be debugging in /var/log/installer/debug or one of the other files in that directory.
<maco> TheMuso: the page
<TheMuso> maco: ok
<maco> oooh hey yes it DOES have debugging there! thank you
<TheMuso> np
<maco> hmm and the debug log is saying invalid syntax at line 148...which is a few lines after my changes. so maybe i messed up parentheses or something
<maco> ...and there are .pyc files. i hate .pyc files. they destroy debugability what with their persistence beyond my changes -_-
<TheMuso> heh
<TheMuso> I agree.
 * TheMuso regrets deleting his ubiquity branch. It takes ages to download again, particularly over an international connection that has been slow to Aus recently...
<maco> YAY
<maco> oh wait dang. this is with my stuff commented
<maco> well. now that ive sorted out the steps required (rm .pyc, then gksu ubiquity, then tail /var/log/installer/debug) maybe i can figure out why my code go boom
 * maco headdesk
<maco> no "could not import module..." errors this time like before
<maco> but again it doesnt show
<maco> if its fine with my syntax, why is it ignoring the entire file? -_-
<TheMuso> maco: I'd get the original and your modified version and get a unified diff.
<TheMuso> I always find unified diffs to help me work out what may be going on.
<maco> TheMuso: my modifications are just that one chunk of lines being inserted...the context around it isn't very helpful
<TheMuso> Right.
<maco> know a way to run it interactively?
<TheMuso> No, my python skills are still very much undeveloped.
<TheMuso> Someone in ubuntu-dev or a python channel would know for sure.
<maco> heyyy progress
<TheMuso> maco: One thing I don't understand with your fragment is why you think the atk functions are addressable from the self object... I would think you want to get them from the gtk object...
<TheMuso> maco: oooh whats the problem?
<maco> i commented out all but one radio button's-worth and that still failed so then i commented out the two lines of that button's code that use atk relationships and the page is now showing
<maco> so the .get_accessible()'s are at least working
<TheMuso> Right.
<maco> and to answer that:
<TheMuso> I think you only need one relationship, i.e label for, or labelled by,.
<maco> the docs im reading show both in use, but i could try just commenting one
<maco> self.atk_resize_use_free = self.resize_use_free.get_accessible()     <--- .get_accessible() returns an atk.Object
<maco> so my self.atk_resize_use_free is of type atk.Object
<TheMuso> ah ok
<TheMuso> that makes sense.
<maco> ok so commenting one and leaving the other goes back to it being invisible
<TheMuso> Right...
<maco> atk.RELATION_LABEL_FOR  <-- im guessing this constant is having a problem
<maco> well the atk relation constants in general
<maco> or maybe im just using add_relation() wrong. i only saw a C example of that one
<TheMuso> hrm.
<TheMuso> Worth digging throught eh pygtk bindings I think
<TheMuso> the
<TheMuso> maco: There is a piece of example code in the python gtk2 source: Let me pastebin it.
<maco> i think i found it
<TheMuso> maco: http://paste.ubuntu.com/590579/
<maco> add_relationship() not add_relation() ...
<TheMuso> maco: Right but I think you should look at that code, as it deals with relation sets.
 * hajour is going to uds in may :))
<maco> it works!
<TheMuso> maco: sweet.
<TheMuso> hajour: Congratulations!
<hajour> ye still not can believe it :)
<hajour> just have read the mail
<UndiFineD> http://mootbot.libertus.co.uk/ubuntu-accessibility/2011/ubuntu-accessibility.2011-04-06-21.01.moin.txt
<hajour> and thank you
 * UndiFineD looks jealously at hajour 
<UndiFineD> congratulations my dear
<hajour> :) hehe thank you my dear
<maco> TheMuso: ok so its less sucky but still not right. its reading the label (yay!) but also still reading the variable name for the radio button (boo!)
<hajour> btw that will not go be  a habit. XD saying nicknames in chat
<TheMuso> maco: Probably best to set the atk name for the radio button. I am guessing something like in the example I pastebinned above.
<hajour> btw already got a nice nick name her in chat hajour
<TheMuso> So self.radiobuttonblah.set_name("Name of radio button")
<hajour> ok i go have some breakfast then sleep and reading logs again :)
<maco> TheMuso: what im seeing happen now is that when i get to that page it reads the first one's label twice, then the radio button id. if i move to another radio button or back to it, labels are read once then the radio button id. im not sure why it's doubling or why its reading the id afterward, but adding    self.atk_resize_use_free.set_name(self.resize_use_free.get_text())     doesn't make it stop reading the id
<TheMuso> maco: I am looking through glade now, and this can all be done in glade, assigning the label for something etc.
 * TheMuso digs up the ui file for the partitioning page.
<maco> TheMuso: translations...
<maco> doing it in glade means hardcoding it in english
<maco> also, some of them make glade throw an error and refuse to open
<TheMuso> maco: I am sure glade allows for translations. But I was thinking assigning the label for and label by stuff
<TheMuso> hrm interesting.
<maco> i hit the same thing as Riddell here http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2010/08/12/%23ubuntu-installer.txt
<maco> he said try installing ubiquity and ubiquity-frontend-gtk to get the gtkwidgets thing it's looking for, but that didnt improve the situatoin
<TheMuso> yup see what you mean.
<maco> oh i see where you can set the labelled by / label for stuff in glade
<maco> do you think setting it in glade versus programmatically will change whether orca reads the id afterward?
<TheMuso> Not sure, as I've never actually played with this myself.
<maco> ah ok yeah glade lets you set a "translateable" checkbox for the accessible name
<maco> we're past translation freeze though
<TheMuso> Yeah, but why Orca is not considering the text on screen I don't know.
<maco> if it's the same as the label, will the po do magic and make the translations match?
<maco> oh no, orca IS considering the text on the screen
<maco> i got it to do that
<TheMuso> So what is the remaining problem?
<maco> its just that its ALSO readin the variable name afterwad
<TheMuso> maco: You might want to install accerciser into the environment, and have a look in accerciser to see what Orca is seeing...
<TheMuso> maco: Seems the gtkwidgets.xml file has a hard-coded path in it.
<TheMuso> Whats worse, is that the UI for ubiquity will need to be ported to pigi for oneiric.
<TheMuso> hrm no difference.
<maco> accerciser doesnt even see that there's a ubiquity window
<maco> if i try running accerciser with gksu it crashes
<TheMuso> Probably because the ubiquity window is running as root.
<TheMuso> Lovely.
<TheMuso> I wonder if its possible to check what user the GUI thread is running as.
<maco> it's bedtime here
<TheMuso> np thanks for doing as much as you have.
<maco> so far i can at least get it to read the stuff it needs to read, if not stfu about the stuff it doesnt
<TheMuso> Right.
<maco> thats at lp:~maco.m/ubiquity/bug749653 
<TheMuso> ooh thanks.
 * TheMuso decides to package it up and try it out.
<maco> i looked a little into where the titles of the pages are coming from, but im not sure how to get it to read them. it seems like maybe this is like when you  have ajax and need commands telling the screenreader "hey look i updated something! go read it!"
 * AlanBell hugs maco again
<AlanBell> awesome work so far
<maco> TheMuso: when the pigi thing happens can the ubiquity devs be convinced to put the atk hints in *the first time*?
<TheMuso> maco: Yes, I'll make sure of that, however I think they will be using .ui files again, just changing the code in python, but yes, I'll make a point of getting that checked out.
<TheMuso> maco: Actually, even better, lets have an installer accessibility review at UDS. :)
<TheMuso> As for the titles, Orca may need to do a little scrounging around itself for those.
<leoquant> hello erkan^ 
<jussi> !test
<ubottu> You're testing my patience!
<jussi> ok, so thats a temporary bot for you. please alert myself or tsimpson when your regular bot gets back
<UndiFineD> thanks jussi 
<AlanBell> hi ivanka 
<ivanka> hi AlanBell
<AlanBell> so the ubuntu onscreen keyboard looks like this at the moment
<AlanBell> http://people.ubuntu.com/~alanbell/oldonboard.png
<AlanBell> but I did some branding tweaks and mine looks like this now: http://people.ubuntu.com/~alanbell/awesomeonboard.png
<AlanBell> ivanka: do you think you could help with a UI freeze exception to get that in Natty?
 * ivanka looks
<AlanBell> and any feedback on colours and design would be great
<ivanka> AlanBell: new definitely looks better and has better contrast
<AlanBell> uses ubuntu font and some #dd4814
<AlanBell> the pink bits are tones of the aubergine
<AlanBell> and I added rounded corners
<ivanka> AlanBell: marcus and otto aren't in yet. Will show to them and then hassle some people
<AlanBell> thanks
<ivanka> AlanBell: looks very nice :-)
<AlanBell> the code is in https://code.launchpad.net/~alanbell/+junk/onboard but I probably need to put it in a branch that isn't +junk
<AlanBell> and I filed bug 751891
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 751891 in onboard (Ubuntu) "onboard does not follow Ubuntu branding and looks dated" [Low,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/751891
<ivanka> AlanBell: have you pinged anyone about it? just so I can name names :-)
<AlanBell> most people in here have seen it
<AlanBell> I mentioned it in #ayatana too
<UndiFineD> o/
<AlanBell> I want the design team to pick this up as a brandable element of the platform
<ivanka> AlanBell: makes a lot of sense but to warn you, UI exceptions are getting harder and harder.
<ivanka> AlanBell: that won't stop me trying though as this does look much much better
<JanC> it's not like Onboard is in a lot of screenshots, I think, and the rest is sort of a themeing tweak?
<UndiFineD> JanC, I doubt any exist for onboard on natty in the wild, and even those for maverick may be rare
<AlanBell> people are taking screenshots
<AlanBell> akgraner is working on the next version of the official ubuntu book for example
<UndiFineD> my first hit is on someone who replace onboard by something else on 10.10 spinoff
<AlanBell> however, looking at the 5th edition of the book I see no screenshot of onboard
<AlanBell> and very very little on a11y at all
<UndiFineD> the second valid hit: sept 25th 2010: http://ubuntuguide.net/onboardenable-simple-on-screen-keyboard-for-ubuntu-gnome
<AlanBell> UndiFineD: the UI freeze concern is mainly about people writing books and manuals to be published soon after release
<UndiFineD> well I am in some of those teams, #ubuntu-manual has just appointed their new people
<ivanka> AlanBell: Yes, am aware of that
<ivanka> AlanBell: just looking with otto
<UndiFineD> #ubuntu-tour is very inactive
<ivanka> AlanBell: wondering if we have enough contrast, this being primarily for accessibility?
<UndiFineD> it could be used by anyone without a keyboard attached
<ivanka> AlanBell: how valuable is the colour coding? I am wondering if it should just be white keys with black/very dark text?
<ivanka> AlanBell: the rounding is all good
<AlanBell> ivanka: not really too sure about the value of the colour coding, I did make sure the main keys were the highest contrast, followed by the numbers
<UndiFineD> I am not sure it is fully valid according to the WCAG standards, but it looks very usable to me
<AlanBell> shift and space don't need contrast so have the boldest colours
<AlanBell> the orange and aubergine on the right bring up overlay layers for symbols and other stuff
<AlanBell> I changed the opacity of them a bit
<AlanBell> ivanka: it is for accessibility, but I want it also to be useful for tablet PCs and touchscreens
<AlanBell> because then more people will maintain it
<ivanka> AlanBell: all good points
<AlanBell> hi all
<AlanBell> if people could be around in about 24 hours from now that would be great
<Pendulum> AlanBell: that was a bit vague...
<AlanBell> the ubuntu.com web team want to share some new designs with us to get feedback from an a11y perspective
<Pendulum> I suspect it is too early for charlie-tca, but I'll try to be here
<Pendulum> can you e-mail the list?
<AlanBell> I will ask yaili to do that when she picks a time
<Pendulum> AlanBell: great, thanks :)
<Pendulum> hi ivanka :)
<ivanka> hi pendulum
<Pendulum> AlanBell: you have access to approving blog comments, right?
<AlanBell> yup
<Pendulum> can you look at the most recent one? I don't quite know what it's talking about so I haven't approved it, but I'm wondering if it relates to one of your bugs
<Pendulum> (feel free to approve it if it does)
<AlanBell> I approved it already and it does
<Pendulum> ah, okay :)
<AlanBell> it related to me being confused by the map bit in the installer
<AlanBell> it is a bit odd if you are using just the keyboard
<Pendulum> ah
<AlanBell> o/ joanmarie 
<joanmarie> \o
<joanmarie> dutchie: ping and hi
<dutchie> hello?
<joanmarie> Well, I'm about to go into a meeting. But dutchie if you are interested in a collaborator on the Simon persona, I'd love to help. My DayJob is 15 years (and counting) as an instructor and consultant teaching individuals who are blind or visually impaired (ages 3 - seniors)
<dutchie> ooh, that might be nice
<joanmarie> up to you
<dutchie> i haven't had any time to work on it due to university :(
<joanmarie> I don't like to interfere
<joanmarie> But it might be fun to help
<joanmarie> btw I'm also the Orca project lead
 * AlanBell wonders what joanmarie thinks about bug 749700
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 749700 in gnome-orca (Ubuntu) "Default button should be "help"" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/749700
<joanmarie> I will look after the meeting
<joanmarie> Well, given my time-telling challenges, lemme look at that bug now AlanBell :-)
<joanmarie> AlanBell: bug commented upon
<hajour> AlanBell, are there differences in colour by the numbers and fonts.i am not sure you see. by this >>>   http://people.ubuntu.com/~alanbell/awesomeonboard.png
<hajour> looks very nice btw AlanBell 
<leoquant> thats a board i would like to have
<hajour> yes that's nice thought that board
<leoquant> page -up and down -button would be nice for me
<hajour> and function buttons
<leoquant> no more double tabbing the buttons: uujkkj
<leoquant> gf
<leoquant> lk
<hajour> a i have the same problem if i use my left hand double tabbing
<hajour> also i cant use it only very short time my left hand
<hajour> cant=can
<joanmarie> so is the reason Caribou is not being used compatibiliy issues with Unity, or stability issues, or something else?
<joanmarie> mind you I like the bigger buttons on that screen shot as I have hand tremors and my aim is lousy
<joanmarie> anyway dutchie my address is joanied at gnome dot org. If you would like input/collaboration, ping me that way and/or via irc (I'm either joanie or joanmarie)
<AlanBell> leoquant: page up and page down are behind the orange overlay
<AlanBell> leoquant: just try running onboard, you have it installed already
<AlanBell> !info caribou
<ubottu> Package caribou does not exist in maverick
<hajour> and is there difference in colour in numbers and fonts ? 
 * hajour is wondering about that
<AlanBell> the numbers are a different colour to the keys
<AlanBell> but only because I made them slightly different
<hajour> mm ok . i was doubting about that
<joanmarie> AlanBell: This page is out of date, but https://live.gnome.org/Caribou
<AlanBell> joanmarie: I have never used caribou, onboard is in the repos and is installed by default on the CD
<joanmarie> code is here: http://git.gnome.org/browse/caribou
 * hajour have learned last weeks more English words :)
<joanmarie> fair enough
<AlanBell> it certainly isn't due to compatibility with unity, onboard isn't entirely compatible :(
<joanmarie> ugh
<hajour> btw who more go to uds from accessibility ? just curious :)
<joanmarie> I'd be interested to find out if Caribou is.
<AlanBell> so would I
<joanmarie> Just today there was an interesting bug filed
<AlanBell> I suspect not
 * joanmarie looks for it
<hajour> hee charlie-tca 
<joanmarie> https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=646980
<ubottu> Gnome bug 646980 in default "Core/UI separation" [Enhancement,Unconfirmed]
<AlanBell> the problem is the way unity draws itself kind of outside or over the top of compiz
<joanmarie> The implication being that a full separation should, I'd think, make it possible for a nux(?) caribou
<joanmarie> i.e. it would look more incorporated
<AlanBell> I just wanted to make onboard a bit more shiny and pretty so that the unity people will pick it up and incorporate it
<hajour> o sorry if i am still a bit much switch fast often from subject.meds not yet full work
<joanmarie> As I stated in that bug, we're doing something in that direction for Orca
<joanmarie> so we "look native" wherever we are
<AlanBell> interesting
<joanmarie> I may do a proof of concept using Nux. Depends on my time and what the learning curve is
<AlanBell> one thing I would like to do with orca is get an easy to install nicer voice
<joanmarie> You know what...
<AlanBell> which is more of a speech dispatcher thing really
<joanmarie> The AndalucÃ­an government did some really nice work on the Spanish voices in Festival
<joanmarie> they are my favorite voices now
<joanmarie> alas, not english
<joanmarie> but I wonder what exactly it was they did
<joanmarie> and then the next question would be: What would it take to cause that work to happen in the other Festival voices
<joanmarie> it is my understanding that Festival works with speech-dispatcher
<AlanBell> it does
<hajour> maybe they have slow or faster the voice joanmarie ?
<AlanBell> openmary has some awesome voices too
<hajour> see AlanBell 
<joanmarie> hajour: I don't follow?
<paul_h> we need a proper speech-dispatcher module for the swift voices too
<dutchie> joanmarie: will do, thanks
<joanmarie> I mean, the voices all can be made slower or faster
<joanmarie> paul_h: hey, we're in all the same places :-)
<hajour> The AndalucÃ­an government did some really nice work on the Spanish voices in Festival
<hajour> <joanmarie> they are my favorite voices now
<hajour> <joanmarie> alas, not english
<joanmarie> the problem with swift is that, well, when it's swift it doesn't sound good
<joanmarie> hajour: right. That's not a speed issue
<joanmarie> you have to listen to their custom voices
<hajour> i am not a dev joanmarie 
<joanmarie> but they just sound more natural
<joanmarie> that's okay
<joanmarie> you don't have to be
<joanmarie> if you are able to hear the voices, just compare what they did with the normal spanish voices
<hajour> i just in IRC IT world from date 30 nov. 2010
<joanmarie> theirs are way, way better
<AlanBell> paul_h: got a link to info about the swift voices?
<hajour> i just know that the voices from open mary where made much improved by AlanBell 
<AlanBell> the default orca voice would remain espeak as that is titchy and will go on the CD
<joanmarie> titchy?
<AlanBell> small
<joanmarie> ah
<hajour> a new word learned
<joanmarie> for me too
<AlanBell> voices can take up a lot of disk space
<paul_h> AlanBell: www.cepstral.com
<AlanBell> nice, thanks
<hajour> i wait till this is subject is ready else it will go be some confusing i think
<paul_h> the "eloquence" voice windows users like doesn't appear to be for sale for linux anymore 
<hajour> ? paul_h ?
<hajour> is eloquence a name ?
<joanmarie> paul_h: well, the equivalent is voxin. The problem as I understand it, is that while they sell it, they are not doing much (if any) development. 
<paul_h> Joanie: no, they're not selling it anymore
<joanmarie> hajour: Eloquence is the name of a windows synthesizer used by (among other software) the leading commercial windows screen reader
<hajour> a ok thanks joanmarie 
<joanmarie> paul_h: huh. I see that on their site. Missed the announcement (obviously)
<joanmarie> oh well, it had those crasher issues Eloquence had from years back. :-/
<hajour> just want to note something.that the primary schools 18 of them are hanging on the accessibility part for to go use edubuntu/ubuntu
<leoquant> AlanBell, I am busy with my health insurrance for additional hardware/keyboards/even computers. so i would like "onboard" as a hardware product!
<hajour> netherlands primary schools
<hajour> because netherland is eager to get children whit issues to hold on normal schools so much they can
<hajour> was just to inform you all
<hajour> if we got a good accessibility i can get at least 18 primary schools big change they go use edubuntu/ubuntu
<hajour> for to start
<joanmarie> hajour: That's cool. The AndalucÃ­an government in Spain has a similar interest for its citizens. As a result, they have been contributing to GNOME a11y projects. 
<joanmarie> When governments are interested and/or concerned, it can be a very good thing. :-)
<joanmarie> It's too bad we don't see similar interest from more corporations.
<hajour> yep if government will give the good example
<hajour> joanmarie,  i cant fill in my tax forms from internet or either on paper because of very small fonts.the size cant go be increased.and there are also no audio to listen to for reading problems
<joanmarie> ugh. That's not good. :-(
<hajour> what i find very annoying
<hajour> and that is a small part from it
<hajour> its also by job sites from government and well fair
<hajour> seams me government have to let see a good example before to go pointing to others
<hajour> what i will go tell them to
<hajour> so i had called many times to them (tax office).last week i had get a letter if i not go fill in form from 2009 i get mm not know how to say in english. boete (pay money to them)because i am to late :S.so i called them whit again ask for help
<hajour> then i can get help for 2010 but not for 2009 because i had called to late ?
<hajour> i lost count on how many times i have called them in a year
<hajour> so 2009 is still problem not solved
<hajour> they asked or i was satisfied.i asked honest truth?
<hajour> i feel very abandoned by government system
<hajour> then she said annoyed you can fill  in on paper
<hajour> i said ever seen how small that font s are.
<hajour> she said its just normal fonts.i said yes.so do you think someone whit bad sight would be able to read it or dyslectic
<hajour> silence
<hajour> have a good day miss.
<hajour> and she hang up
<hajour> :(
<hajour> so then that day i decided to hold a petition on europian lvl for to give government a good push in right direction to make internet program use accessible
<hajour> and to go to brussel to give all assignments to IT and issues minister with press being around
<hajour> and i will go stay nag and nag till they do something on it
<hajour> so my new project was born.
<hajour> sorry for flooding again btw
<hajour> o charlie-tca i go to uds
<charlie-tca> Great! Glad to hear it
<hajour> just have seen in mail this morning for i was go to sleep
<hajour> :)
<JanC> who else is going from the a11y team?
<hajour> i hope i will be able to help others
<charlie-tca> It is a good thing to go to, when you can!
<hajour> a11y team?
<charlie-tca> That is the only one approved so far, I think
<hajour> JanC,  you can write and read french write?
<JanC> I can read French, but writing would probably contain errors  âº
<hajour> if i have the petition ready the letter all what is going to be send around.i want it in different languages
<hajour> so many as possible
<JanC> ah, best ask that to native speakers then
<hajour> o btw you think it would be all-right if i go give the assignments in brussel i go invite minister from IC to the UDS what comes after the one from may
<hajour> i know she is pro open source you see
<hajour> hai jono :)
<JanC> hajour: minister for IT-related things in the Netherlands?
<hajour> minister kroese
<JanC> what party is she from?
<hajour> europian
<jono> he hajour
<leoquant> JanC, liberals
<leoquant> (vvd)
<JanC> oh, you mean Kroes, she's not a minister, but something similar indeed
<hajour> she do all things on europian lvl
<leoquant> kroes is an europolit.
<hajour> yes
<hajour> also the person from accessibility things i want invite then
<hajour> from europe
<JanC> I don't think she has time to attend a complete UDS, but it would already be some help if one of her assistants would come of course  ;)
<hajour> kicking only against the low layer do not help 
<leoquant> she used to have anti-kartel portef.
<hajour> yep
<hajour> but i will go try she self will come
<hajour> i talked to her 1 time she is very nice person
<JanC> anyway, I think there are already laws about accessibility for the government...
<hajour> yes but only on paper 
<hajour> in reality nothing happens
<hajour> almost nothing
<hajour> after years of meetings i want to see results
<JanC> it would help if a major newspaper or TV station would shame them about this software
<hajour> yes and UndiFineD  have worked for tv
<hajour> i go use all contacts
<hajour> he knows a lot of people there and trough them well just chain reaction
<hajour> well cant help it if i have something in my mind i not have rest before i really have done it
<hajour> btw i asked UndiFineD  if there was a meeting.but he said he thought there was no meeting.think he thought i really needed to sleep :P
<JanC> hm, new earthquake in Japan?  :-/
<hajour> uch really?
<JanC> they just said in on the radio news
<hajour> i almost never listen radio.much commercial.and the commercial is so very loud 
<hajour> hurts my ears
<hajour> o btw i cant load the meeting log with chromium browser at all
<JanC> we have radio stations with less commercial music, and radio 1 has lots of news & explanation about the news from 16-20h
<hajour> from belgian or netherland?
<JanC> explanations about the backgrounds behind the news
<JanC> Flemish Radio 1
<hajour> a ok
<hajour> is that also trough internet?
<hajour> i have not a radio you see
<charlie-tca> 7.4 earthquake with a 1 meter tsunumi
<JanC> 7.4 is a lot
<charlie-tca> 1 meter tsunami (wave in the ocean)
<hajour> mmm i hope there are not many victims
<leoquant> :(
<hajour> i hope also rx007 will be all-right
<JanC> hajour: the Flemish public radio's streams are here: http://www.digitaleradio.be/dab/hoeluisteren/pc/help/Links_streams.html
<hajour> a thank you JanC 
<JanC> if you like classical music, you can listen to Klara  âº
<hajour> JanC,  i cant load the accessibility log with chromium browser btw.i not yet tried with firefox yet
<hajour> yes i like classical music
<hajour> have played myself classical music for years before my hands started to nag
<hajour> i played in harmony with clarinet
<hajour> 16 years long
<JanC> nice  âº
<JanC> is UndiFineD going to UDS too?
<hajour> chakofsky , paganini,beethoven ,brams,stravinsky ect
<hajour> no only me
<Pendulum> hajour: congrats on UDS 
<hajour> thank you Pendulum :)
 * Pendulum did not get sponsorship so will not be there
<hajour> ? i thought you would get it honest say Pendulum 
<Pendulum> I've been to 2 and I suspect they wanted some new people
<hajour> a ok
<hajour> i hoped you would be there to.wanted to meet you :)
<Pendulum> I'd really wanted to be there, but I guess it's not to be :)
<hajour> i really learn much from you every time again
<JanC> also, if they want to alternate between some people, they will probably prefer European people for European UDS & Northern-American people for American UDS ?
<AlanBell> my understanding is that they don't really care about that
<AlanBell> even though it would be logical
<hajour> mm seams me it ould be good all from over the world meet each other would be a good thing
 * Pendulum shrugs
<hajour> would i meant
<Pendulum> I probably can't do Orlando this year so on that side it doesn't really matter to me
<JanC> there are peopel from all over the world anyway
<hajour> ok
<hajour> i am curious and nerves to go to uds
<hajour> is there also go someone to there who speaks dutch like me .?
<Pendulum> hajour: I don't know. You might want to ask in the dutch loco channels
<hajour> i mean if i not know a subtend  word in english
<hajour> bah surtend not know the right word
<JanC> hm, Jelmer might go
<hajour> ok i not yet have meet jelmer thought
<JanC> not sure if thisfred will be there (from the UbuntuOne team at Canonical)
<hajour> is jelmer thisfred or are that 2 different persons?
<JanC> 2 different persons
<JanC> jelmer is going
<JanC> he's in #ubuntu-nl  âº
<hajour> but i have to help my daughter now with making pancakes have to tell here how to do some of the things
<hajour> a ok is he there also in about a few hours from now?
<hajour> i am in the channel now JanC 
<hajour> tot later
<hajour> till later sorry
<hajour> wrong language
<Pendulum> charlie-tca: how early can you be up tomorrow?
<charlie-tca> How early you want me to be?
<Pendulum> AlanBell: ^^
<Pendulum> we've got design team people who want to come in and talk tomorrow :)
<Pendulum> about the website
<charlie-tca> Not sure I am the best one for that.
<Pendulum> I know
<Pendulum> just thought you might have opinions on it
<UndiFineD> which site
<UndiFineD> or is this all ubuntu sites in general ?
<charlie-tca> Of course I do, but ... :-(
<Pendulum> UndiFineD: all the ubuntu sites
<Pendulum>  think
<Pendulum> I think
<UndiFineD> ok, but in general none of the sites would fit accessibility, it is hard to be stylish and and accessible
<UndiFineD> I have a good approach here: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/7607669/SC/index.xhtml
<UndiFineD> but it is close to the best one can do
<charlie-tca> For starters, they could approve the theme AlanBell requested a long time ago
<charlie-tca> Anytime it takes more than 6 months to make such a simple decision says you don't really care.
<UndiFineD> yeah, I am taking it to the extreme, we want full AAA compliance
 * UndiFineD is away for a moment
<AlanBell> no, just about ubuntu.com
<AlanBell> that was no to "all ubuntu sites in general"
<Pendulum> AlanBell: do we have a time yet?
<AlanBell> no
<AlanBell> afternoon, London time
<AlanBell> nothing more specific
<hajour>  Message to #ubuntu-accessibility throttled due to flooding
<hajour> well i not go explain  something again
<hajour> i not go type for nothing 
<hajour> UndiFineD, said nothing was to see from it
<hajour> bye
<Pendulum> ?
<AlanBell> there is no floodbot here
<hajour> see message above
<hajour> was to see in freenode this message
<hajour> i cant use pastebin i cant link to see meetinglogs what are attached to chromium
<hajour> because chromium is much to slow loading
<hajour> so i had explained what issues where in netherlands internet and programs for accessibility thats the onnly thing i had type longh
<hajour> like above
 * hajour is go stop typing because else same will happen again
<hajour> i go do something else till in about a hour. need a cooldown on the moment
<leoquant> :P
#ubuntu-accessibility 2011-04-08
<AlanBell> was gobby-0.5 inaccessible to orca at some point, or did I just make that up?
<UndiFineD> I dont know
<UndiFineD> but at least we have speaking browsers now
<Pendulum> AlanBell: I thought luke said something about the side panel being inaccessible
<AlanBell> I thought so too
<AlanBell> the gobby developer thinks otherwise
<Pendulum> I saw
<Pendulum> TheMuso: was 'new' gobby inaccessible for you at one point?
<UndiFineD> well it was inaccessible during UDS every hour :P
<Pendulum> (i'm sure he's gone to bed, but at least he can answer when he sees it)
<AlanBell> I am not too bothered, it would be a pointless argument to get into
<AlanBell> but I know the upgrade to gobby-0.5 was done without regard to accessibility concerns that had been raised
<Pendulum> *nods*
<Pendulum> I wonder if the server is back up :P
<AlanBell> heh, that was funny
<TheMuso> Pendulum: Yes the document pane on the left.
<Pendulum> TheMuso: have you tried it more recently?
<TheMuso> No
<TheMuso> haven't had a need to.
<Pendulum> (wouldn't work now as I think AlanBell crashed the server last night)
<AlanBell> oops
<TheMuso> heh
<Pendulum> AlanBell: there's you're answer, though
 * UndiFineD hands AlanBell a black hat
<AlanBell> ok, well at least I wasn't dreaming about -0.5 being a bit of an issue, however I am not going to get into a discussion on the devel list about it
<Pendulum> yeah
<AlanBell> website review stuff with the design team we talked about yesterday is delayed to Monday apparently
<charlie-tca> Yay! sponsorship approved for UDS - O
<popey> congrats charlie-tca 
<AlanBell> excellent charlie-tca 
<leoquant> congrats charlie-tca 
<leoquant> is there is list of approved members charlie-tca ?
<leoquant> : https://launchpad.net/sprints/uds-o?
<charlie-tca> Yes. That is all those who will attend, either physically or remotely
<Pendulum> charlie-tca: congrats
<pleia2> charlie-tca: yay, I'll see you there!
<charlie-tca> finally! a chance to meet you
<erkan^> :-d
 * maco wonders if a certain bug will actually be fixed in the next 5 hours
<Pendulum> maco: that would be great
<nigelb> ouch
<maco> <ClassBot> nigelb asked: Last cycle Unity had a bunch of issues with accessiblity, how are we doing on that front at the end of this cycle? Are you happy with the pace of things on this front?
<maco> <dbarth> no
<maco> <dbarth> i'm not
<maco> <dbarth> rather
<maco> <dbarth> i had hoped to have a lot more ready for release time, and we're not totally there
<nigelb> my ouch was for that ^^
<nigelb> maco beat me to the paste
<nigelb> 17:06 <+dbarth> we do have panel and launcher accessible
<nigelb> 17:06 <+dbarth> we have parts of the dash (particularly alt-f2) working in a branch
<nigelb> 17:07 <+dbarth> but i had hoped to have unity be the default choice for people with disabilities either
<nigelb> 17:07 <+dbarth> instead of that, we'll recommend using the classic session for this cycle
<charlie-tca> Finally, an hone
<maco> <dbarth> i think that it has become the official decision at this point
<maco> <dbarth> that said, i want to underline the efforts that have been made on the a11y front
<maco> <dbarth> it was not easy
<maco> <dbarth> but we've made sure all of the unity building blocks pretty much understand the a11y requirements now
<charlie-tca> honest answer?
<nigelb> Yeah, I appreciate that
<nigelb> At least better than hollow ones.
<charlie-tca> yup
<hajour> congrats charlie-tca  and pleia2 
<charlie-tca> A chance to meet in person is very nice
<hajour> see you both's there 
<hajour> btw UndiFineD  have removed chromium browser from my eeepc
<hajour> problem solved 
<charlie-tca> That should help, even if it is faster than firefox
<hajour> i can now use pastebin and log in by meetings logs asgain
<hajour> no its absolute not faster by me
<hajour> i could not log in by my bank either with chromium browser
<hajour> frame in frame is really a problem with chromium browser and using lubuntu
<hajour> charlie-tca, ^
<charlie-tca> hajour: at least some of the problems will go away now
<hajour> yes because now i can finally read the logs i needed to read for my team
<hajour> going back reading logs again :S .  after that i go get some sleep. till tomorrow all
<maco> woo my trickery worked!
<maco> so, yesterday, DBO said he would fix the first unity bug mentioned in the channel we were in within 24h
<maco> so i quickly said https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/unity/+bug/739812
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 739812 in unity "Must use hardware keyboard to perform search for applications in Unity" [Critical,Confirmed]
<maco> he has a patch
<maco> it breaks abi so likely will have to be an SRU not on the cd, but still... yay!
<charlie-tca> wOw!
<charlie-tca> Way to go, maco 
<maco> this is what i was referring to with:   -*- maco wonders if a certain bug will actually be fixed in the next 5 hours
<AlanBell> that was a really really good bug to pick
<AlanBell> oops, I put two past articles back on planet.ubuntu.com
<AlanBell> I just edited them to put them in a category rather than have them as uncategorised
<Pendulum> oh well
<charlie-tca> Gives those who missed them the first time a chance to read them
<AlanBell> yeah I figured it wouldn't do anyone any harm, but thought I would let you know why they are back on the planet
<pleia2> maco: oh yay!
<TheMuso> Thats awesome news.
#ubuntu-accessibility 2011-04-09
<UndiFineD> hahaha maco, you cheeky ... I love it
<TheMuso> c
#ubuntu-accessibility 2011-04-10
<Nafai> Looks like the "Enhanced Zoom Plugin" from Compiz might be enough right now to help make things a bit more useable for me
<Nafai> hrm, except it only zooms the main monitor, not the secondary
<AlanBell> Nafai: it zooms one monitor at a time
<AlanBell> it zooms the one where the mouse is I think
<UndiFineD> o/
<AlanBell> https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=78514#c19
<ubottu> Gnome bug 78514 in general "copy item in edit menu" [Enhancement,Resolved: fixed]
#ubuntu-accessibility 2012-04-02
<IvanFetch> AlanBell: Which version of Ubuntu are you working with, in the videos you posted on Sunday?
<AlanBell> 12.04
<AlanBell> it is now good enough to see all the bugs
<joanie> Hey guys. Is it a known issue that unity-greeter events go AWOL?
<joanie> translation: Orca cain't present it if Orca doesn't know about it.
<joanie> AlanBell, TheMuso, and anyone else who cares: https://bugs.launchpad.net/unity-greeter/+bug/971926
<ubot2> Launchpad bug 971926 in unity-greeter "Accessible events stop being emitted after exploring menu" [Undecided,New]
<joanie> Aside from the bug itself....
<joanie> You will find there a tester I hope will prove of value to you
<joanie> it's quick and dirty: mv /usr/bin/orca and put this script in its place
<joanie> it will dump out key presses, key releases and the most essential accessible events (or in this case the lack thereof)
<joanie> and will hopefully be a way for you to answer "Why isn't Orca doing such and such?"
<AlanBell> that is nice joanie 
<joanie> :)
<joanie> I also tried to add enough stuff to make it re-usable and tweakable and such by your team
<joanie> and as questions come up about tweaking, I can answer those
<joanie> and hopefully you'll wind up with some tools for your team to dig into this stuff without having to know the ins and outs of at-spi2, etc.
<TheMuso> joanie: Yeah I filed a similar bug last week. I suspect that since window management is not being used, something is breaking somewhere.
<TheMuso> because in test mode, unity-greeter works properly.
<TheMuso> Test mode is designed to run in a user's session in a window.
<joanie> TheMuso: Hmmm. In test mode does the bug I just filed not occur?
<joanie> because in that case things start out right
<joanie> and then stop being right 
<TheMuso> joanie: I know.
 * TheMuso tests in test mode once again.
<TheMuso> joanie: yeah works fine in test mode
<joanie> weird
 * joanie googles for test mode
<TheMuso> joanie: unity-greeter --test-mode
<TheMuso> in your logged in session.
<joanie> ha!
 * joanie gives it a try
<joanie> guest account has a password?
<TheMuso> All those accounts in the test mode are bogus.
<joanie> no
<joanie> sorry
<joanie> lemme 'splain
<joanie> This computer is my fedora box
<joanie> so I went to my laptop
<joanie> screen had locked
<joanie> I am being prompted for a password for the guest account
<joanie> I tried an empty password and that failed
<joanie> this is not test mode
<TheMuso> ohhhh
<TheMuso> bug time. :)
<joanie> so this isn't a known issue. ;)
 * joanie searches lp
<joanie> already here
<joanie> and old
<joanie> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/gnome-screensaver/+bug/818335
<ubot2> Launchpad bug 818335 in gnome-screensaver "Blank password is invalid on unlock screen" [Undecided,New]
<TheMuso> Right.
<joanie> TheMuso: Finally tried test-mode. It segfaults.
<TheMuso> joanie: How did you test it? I was testing with Orca running, and I didn't enable orca from within the greeter.
<joanie> in other news, apparently Orca's flat review mode doesn't like unity-greeter.
<joanie> I launched a terminal, Orca wasn't running. I typed 'unity-greeter --test-mode'
<joanie> it spewed debug output, did the little drum sound, and promptly killed itself
<TheMuso> And it segfaulted?
<joanie> yessir
<joanie> don't you love release season? ;)
<TheMuso> Interesting. I am running latest precise, nothign custom installed here.
<joanie> well, I am first going to stop the Orca flat review bad behavior if I can
<TheMuso> Works every time when I run in test mode.
<joanie> I think I can
<TheMuso> Ok.
#ubuntu-accessibility 2012-04-03
<joanie> TheMuso: you still around?
<TheMuso> joanie: Yup.
<joanie> help me brainstorm because I need to hack(ish) around unity-greeter for flat review
<TheMuso> Ok I'll do what I can...
<joanie> the problem seems to be related to the lack of window manager and how Orca draws flat review 
<joanie> When Orca draws the line it's a GtkWindow
<TheMuso> Yup, with you so far.
<joanie> and Orca just keeps it on top
<TheMuso> Ah.
<TheMuso> I was wondering how that was done.
<joanie> well, for some reason unity-greeter doesn't like this
<TheMuso> Right.
<joanie> perhaps because it doesn't have a window manager
<TheMuso> It doesn't.
<joanie> so combine that with the bug I filed earlier
<joanie> it gives focus back to whatever
<TheMuso> It only does the bare minimum to make sure shutdown/restart dialogs are on top and get focus.
<joanie> and events stop
<TheMuso> Yup.
<joanie> so the "solution" (not exactly, but....) is "don't draw the outline"
<joanie> so I need to detect this condition
<joanie> in looking at the registry
<joanie> when unity-greeter is running there are two accessible applications:
<joanie> unity-greeter and Orca
<TheMuso> Right. One thing I was trying to do recently was probe the unity-greeter X display to see what properties were set, to see if such a property was set that we could check for.
<joanie> a non-hack would be awesme
<joanie> awesome too :)
<TheMuso> However I was not able to do so from a terminal with xprop etc.
<joanie> in the meantime, with 3.4.1 approaching
<joanie> when I look at any "normal" environment -- even minimal, there are bunches more than 2 apps counting Orca
<TheMuso> Right.
<joanie> what other apps might show up in unity-greeter
<joanie> I'm thinking if there are not at least three (or insert number here) apps, do flat review but don't draw the rectangle
<TheMuso> Only onboard, but thats not likely to be running at the same time as orca.
<joanie> because I see no way to ask "what's your window manager?"
<joanie> I will google more
<joanie> and to be honest, most Orca users cannot see the underline anyway
<TheMuso> Ok.
<TheMuso> Yup
<joanie> so I'm not all that worried if my hack is too extreme
<TheMuso> And flat review is not likely to be used in the greeter.
<joanie> and fails to draw a line that no one is going to see
<joanie> Attila tried it
<TheMuso> You're usually only there to log in/
<TheMuso> He would. :
<joanie> and promptly discovered his system wouldn't respond
<TheMuso> :)
<joanie> Attila is my FAVORITE user.
<joanie> seriously
<TheMuso> I can understand that yeah.
<joanie> he's like having an employee
<joanie> he tests and tries all sorts of stuff
<joanie> and gives crazy amounts of debug output
<joanie> and hacks
<joanie> and
<joanie> ok but back to my brainstorm
<joanie> you ok with this as a solution?
<TheMuso> Ypu I know what you mean, he is raising a lot of issues on the Ubuntu a11y list. At least he files bugs as well.
<TheMuso> Works for me.
<TheMuso> Maybe longer term we could add an X property or some such to unity-greeter that you could check for.
 * joanie nods
<joanie> first I'm going to see if I can figure out how Gtk+ sends those hints
<TheMuso> Ok.
<joanie> oh hi gdk method
<joanie> I might not have to hack
 * joanie tries
<joanie> I love introspection bugs :-/
<joanie> anyhoo, TheMuso at least in Fedora, and not counting the introspection bug I'm about to search for and file....
<joanie> I can use Gdk to get the window manager's name
<joanie> so that should be fine for the flat review unity-greeter bug
<joanie> (in theory)
<TheMuso> Ok theories are good.
<joanie> yeah ;)
<joanie> I guess I should make sure it doesn't blow up in ubuntu
<joanie> got 'Metacity'. /me tries in greeter
<tallboy_2> AlanBell:  Just wanted to let you know for future reference, 12.04 did not work.. still no 3D support for that Intel chip.  
<joanie> TheMuso: fixed. https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=673397
<ubot2> Gnome bug 673397 in general "Using flat review while in Unity Greeter makes Orca stop presenting screen contents." [Normal,Resolved: fixed]
<joanie> TheMuso: While testing I noticed that there are some items in the unity-greeter that are apparently not being seen by Orca's flat review. At some point down the road I can look into that. BUT, I would bet cold, hard cash that it ain't an Orca bug. And unlike the thing I just fixed, I cannot hack objects which are not correctly reporting their location or existence into objects which are. ;)
<TheMuso> joanie: Yeah there are GTK widgets at the core of unity-greeter, but some work has been done to make them look somewhat different, so I dare say there is something that changes the behavior of what originally is a standard GTK widget.
<yaili_> hi all
<yaili_> wondering if anyone is available to have a look at something we're working on?
<AlanBell> hi yaili_ 
<AlanBell> whats up?
<yaili_> AlanBell: hi!
<AlanBell> are you going to UDS?
<yaili_> AlanBell: no
<AlanBell> :(
<yaili_> AlanBell: maybe next time :)
<yaili_> AlanBell: do you have a couple of minutes to have a look at a test page?
<AlanBell> sure
<yaili_> so we're looking into the hover on links on ubuntu.com, and just putting together as many variations we can think of
<yaili_> here it is so far http://dl.dropbox.com/u/46219249/links/index.html
<yaili_> your thoughts would be very welcome
<AlanBell> not sure I like the various underlines vanishing on hover
<AlanBell> dotted underline is often used to indicate there is an on-hover tooltip so I wouldn't use that for an actual link
<AlanBell> http://www.alistapart.com/articles/hattrick/
<AlanBell> yaili_: and baconipsum is great :)
<yaili_> AlanBell: indeed
<yaili_> AlanBell: I like how bold doesn't rely on colour to indicate there's a difference, but not sure it's easy to understand
<AlanBell> yeah, they don't look like links to me, plus what if you want to actually use *bold* for something in a run of text with bold links
<AlanBell> bold Orange is OK
<yaili_> AlanBell: true
<yaili_> AlanBell: what if it was underlined and changed colour on hover?
<yaili_> AlanBell: do you think the links being simply orange is enough?
<AlanBell> I think people would work it out either way
<AlanBell> personally I am fine with most of the options, arguably the orange with tinted background is low contrast, but only when you are actually hovering over it
<AlanBell> I think orange links is fine, even on a monochrome display you can see the difference between Orange and black pretty easily
<yaili_> cool
<yaili_> we've had complaints about not having a hover style
<AlanBell> yeah, I see it is pretty flat on the live site with no hover style
<yaili_> AlanBell: yeah, so we kind of need to fix that
#ubuntu-accessibility 2012-04-04
<cjwatson> Hi, I'm looking for some advice on installer accessibility
<cjwatson> What's the desired behaviour in bug 965349?
<ubot2> Launchpad bug 965349 in ubiquity "Pages title not exposed to Screen reader" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/965349
<cjwatson> I'm trying to absorb as much of the documentation as I can, but there's rather a lot of it ...
<AlanBell> cjwatson: desired behaviour is for it to read the page title as each page opens, just after you press the continue button
<AlanBell> I think that the importance of this one is being over stressed slightly
<AlanBell> cjwatson: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GbvncFwCkmA&noredirect=1 me going through the installer
<AlanBell> cjwatson: do you know if Bug #969566  is in the right place or should that one be against ubiquity too?
<ubot2> Launchpad bug 969566 in casper "drums play too soon as ubiquity starts, it isn't ready for the ctrl+s to start orca" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/969566
#ubuntu-accessibility 2012-04-05
<TheMuso> AlanBell: No thats done in ubiquity.
<TheMuso> AlanBell: the responsible code is in the ubiquity bzr repo, in ubiquity/frontend/gtk_ui.py.
<cjwatson> AlanBell: ok, do you know of any prior art for that, i.e. some other application that behaves that way?
<AlanBell> reading the page names of the wizard? I am fairly sure it is a regression
<cjwatson> AlanBell: um, ok, but I have no idea where; it would be helpful to be able to look at some other current application that reads the page names in a GtkNotebook when changing page so that I can see how it's doing it
<Dave_H> This is a test of the ubuntu-12.04 pidgin-casting system.  lol
<Dave_H> Hello, people, how are we today?  :)  
<joanie> TheMuso: ping
<joanie> Well, I'll type and you can read later. :)
<joanie> As I just commented on https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/unity-greeter/+bug/944161
<ubot2> Launchpad bug 944161 in unity-greeter "orca does not read user names" [Undecided,Confirmed]
<joanie> Orca ain't getting the events
<joanie> I don't know why
<joanie> I took a couple of lame guesses
<joanie> but I do not see how I can fix this in Orca
#ubuntu-accessibility 2012-04-06
<AlanBell> Bug #975029 
<ubot2> Launchpad bug 975029 in compiz-plugins-main "bindings to activate ezoom not set" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/975029
<AlanBell> I added a patch for it
#ubuntu-accessibility 2012-04-07
<Dave_H> This is another test of the Ubuntu-12.04 Pidgin Casting System.  lol
<Dave_H> Using orca 3.4.0; wondering whether the Pidgin script loads?  Notifications speak as they come in, and the buddy list is navigable.
<Dave_H> hello?
<Dave_H> How do I see what script Orca is running?  
#ubuntu-accessibility 2012-04-08
<Dave_H> Hello!
