#ubuntu-manual 2010-08-30
<aruna> Hi, I am Aruna. I would like to be accepted into the Quickshot developer team. Thank you..
<zkriesse> Ah.....WTF?
<flan> Sure didn't stay around for long.
<flan> But that's the first person who submitted an application who also found the channel.
<jenkins> evening
<flan> Hi, jenkins.
<jenkins> hey flan
<flan> Should I comment the server tonight or would you like me to get started on the client?
<flan> (If the latter, I'll need your direction)
<flan> (Because I dunno what you've got in progress and what's finished)
<jenkins> yea some help would be good, I am having a go at linking with the server
<jenkins> the menu needs linking in with all the windows
<jenkins> and I need to understand the server stuff which is well documented
<flan> For the server, start an interpreter.
<flan> python -i client/__init__.py
<flan> (Loads the client library and gives you an interpreter in its context)
<jenkins> ok thanks I was going to ask about that.
<flan> Lemme know once that's done.
<jenkins> also I see there is a download latest function but is there a function to download the list of all the screenshots to do? I have the interpreter loaded
<jenkins> flan: you are going to kill me but what use is being an interpreter with a file?
<flan> ?
<flan> The usefulness is that you get to play around with the code without writing a script to wrap it.
<flan> It's good for exploring.
<flan> Sorry about the delay in responding.
<jenkins> no problem, thats what I thought I must not be doing ti right
<flan> (session, details) = build_session_from_qsproj('http://flan.uguu.ca:5000/ump/10-04/', 'en_GB', 'you@example.org', None, None, True)
<flan> Run that.
<flan> Then type 'details'
<flan> You should get a dict with a bunch of data about the project.
<jenkins> IOError: Unable to parse .qsproj file at 'http://flan.uguu.ca:5000/ump/10-04/'
<flan> Oh.
<flan> Oops.
<flan> session_from_url
<flan> Not qsproj
<flan> qsproj is for loading from a file. They both return the exact same thing, though.
<flan> Loading froma  file is just a special case of loading froma  URL.
<flan> (The code just extracts the URL and pulls the most recent data from that)
<flan> (So the whole .qsproj thing is just for show and convenience right now)
<jenkins> ok this makes some sense. if i want the latest screenshot do  i type download_latest ?
<flan> If that's what I called it, almost.
<flan> For now, 'session.query_progress()'
<flan> That'll give you the lists.
<flan> (For en_GB)
<flan> And session.query_details('hello')
<flan> That should give you en_GB-localized values for the 'hello' screenshot.
<flan> (If a localization exists)
<flan> (If not, it'll just serve the project default)
<jenkins> ok thanks makes sense I am just going to re read the file and try some stuff
<flan> Experiment.
<flan> You can't break anything irreparably.
<flan> Oh. Give me an OpenID.
<flan> So I can grant you full access to the project on the server so you can interact with both sides.
<flan> I'm assuming it's https://launchpad.net/~ubuntujenkins
<jenkins> yep thats me flan
<flan> http://flan.uguu.ca:5000/ You can sign in and change stuff, then.
<jenkins> thanks
<flan> Fifteen-minute session expiry.
<flan> Feel free to change anything you want.
<flan> If you break something, let me know.
<jenkins> ok will do
<flan> Oh.
<flan> Actually, test a file upload.
<flan> session.upload_capture(<path-to-some-png/>, 'hello')
<flan> (Any PNG. I won't judge you)
<flan> Then try this.
<flan> x = open(<path-to-some-other-png/>, 'rb')
 * jenkins finds a png
<flan> session.upload_capture(x, 'test')
<flan> Found one?
 * flan wants to see~
<flan> I'll be home in about two hours.
<flan> Maybe an hour and a half.
 * flan needs a haircut.
<jenkins> sorry found one on my laptop so loads of windows on a small screen
<jenkins> uploading now on slow intertnet
<flan> You could've just Googled. =P
<jenkins> I had some santax errors " " are needed around the paths and * are not excepted
<flan> Seems I made a mistake somewhere...
<flan> Ooh. Neat.
<jenkins> i got ((True, 'Screenshot uploaded', 'project: ump; version: 10-04; language: en_GB; screenshot: hello; uploader: you@example.org; uploader-name: n/a; uploader-homepage: n/a; uploader-anonymous: no'),)
<flan> IOError: cannot read interlaced PNG files
<flan> Oh, yeah. No problem on your end.
<flan> I just forgot to do something.
<flan> The file's uploaded fine.
<flan> -'s
<jenkins> i don't see the image
<flan> For the reason I just pasted.
<jenkins> ok cool
<flan> Interesting...
<flan> PIL 1.1.7 is support to support interlaced files, but, apparently, it does not.
<jenkins> have you taken the server off line?
<flan> No. Why?
<jenkins> http://paste.ubuntu.com/486038/ may be related to another error
<jenkins> * the other
<flan> Yeah. It is.
<flan> PIL can't load your file. :(
<flan> Can you upload something non-interlaced while I work this out?
<jenkins> how do i know if it is interlaced?
<flan> Yours is the first interlaced PNG I've ever seen.
<flan> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/47/PNG_transparency_demonstration_1.png
<flan> That one should be fine.
<jenkins> I will try and save as a non interlaced png
<jenkins> thats a cool image
<flan> It's Wikipedia's image for the article on PNG.
<flan> First google hit for "PNG".
<flan> Upload that as 'hello'.
<jenkins> uploading
<jenkins> i am
<flan> Yes. Much better.
<flan> Though it's all transparency -> black.
<flan> 'Cause I didn't set a transparency mask.
<jenkins> thats so cool stuff on the server
<Muscovy> What are you guys working on?
<flan> Quickshot.
<flan> Upload it a few more times and play with accept/reject, if you're so inclined.
<flan> Then PM me a list of everything you want me to do with the client tonight.
<flan> (Keep in mind that I only have about two hours today)
<jenkins> if you could just sort out the menu bar showing all the windows that would b great
<flan> 'Kay.
<flan> Don't be surprised if the structure's different when you wake up, then.
<flan> (I'll be available for questions)
<jenkins> I am unsure if the branch is broken at the moment i will push a fixed one. you have already done the file for the menu bar that is somewhere in the branch quickshot folder. ok I will wait and see :)
<jenkins> flan: if you move a files can you just make a list of from and to so that I can change the debian rules stuff correctly
<jenkins> flan: in line 118 you have session.download_reference(screenshot, quality=70, thumbnail=None) but you have to do session.download_reference("hello", "quality=70", "thumbnail=None") is that ok? I don't get any file but a server error which is to be expected at the moment
<c7p> jenkins: hey, how the developement of quickshot is going ?
<jenkins> hey c7p it is getting there
<c7p> cool I find it very interesting as programm
<jenkins> thanks, how you?
<jenkins> *are
<jenkins> night all
#ubuntu-manual 2010-08-31
<nisshh> godbyk: ping
<godbyk> nisshh: pong
<nisshh> godbyk: ah, your around, i have a question
<godbyk> yep. I'm on a weird sleep schedule (for now). :)
<nisshh> ah ok
<nisshh> godbyk: in this branch: https://code.launchpad.net/~rick-rickspencer3/ubuntu-developer-manual/python_chapter_odt
<nisshh> there is an odt file
<nisshh> can you have a look at it please
<godbyk> sure
<nisshh> there is some stuff in there that i dont know how to represent with latex
<nisshh> godbyk: tables specifically
<godbyk> Eh.. and they're big tables, too.
<nisshh> yea
<godbyk> How are you handling the python interpreter code (input and output) blocks?
<nisshh> just with the terminal command
<nisshh> seems to work fine
<godbyk> cool. okay.
<nisshh> godbyk: basically, the way im showing the tabled info in latex, im just listing it
<nisshh> but is there a better way? (not necessarily tables)
<godbyk> Well, you can create tables in LaTeX.
<nisshh> oh, you can?
<godbyk> But the default tables are only ones that fit on a single page.  (And there are some other limitations.)
<nisshh> ah
<nisshh> so not very useful
<godbyk> You can use the longtable package (see http://ctan.org/pkg/longtable) to get the table to split across multiple pages.
<godbyk> But to be honest, I'd probably find a better way of showing that information.
<nisshh> yea
<nisshh> godbyk: any ideas?
<godbyk> Most of it is just showing examples of operators.
<godbyk> (At least the tables I've glanced at so far.)
<nisshh> look at the next section down
<nisshh> different info
<godbyk> For those, you could probably just do the normal 'quick sentence describing this operator, and oh, here's an example:' type thing.
<nisshh> yea
<godbyk> Or perhaps a table that shows the operator symbols and their meanings.  Then the examples can follow.
<nisshh> hmmm, something to think about
<nisshh> godbyk: one thing to consider is that chapter is MASSIVE so im trying to shorten it a bit as well
<nisshh> so id rather not include any big bulky tables at all
<godbyk> Yeah, it is pretty packed with info.
<nisshh> tell me about it :)
<nisshh> godbyk: is it possible to have non-table columns in latex?
<godbyk> The short answer is 'yes'.
<godbyk> The longer answer depends more on what you had in mind. :)
<nisshh> hmmm
<godbyk> Do you mean multiple columns like what we use for the index in the Ubuntu manual?
<godbyk> Or do you mean more like a table when there rows are aligned somehow?
<nisshh> erm, multiple columns (i think)
<godbyk> like newspaper columns?
<godbyk> where the first column is filled, then the remainder of the text starts at the top of the second column, and so on?
<nisshh> no
<nisshh> not like that
<nisshh> exactly like the credits in the manual
<godbyk> that's using the same mechanism as the newspaper columns.
<nisshh> ah ok
<nisshh> then yes
<godbyk> though the columns are balanced, so they are as short (vertically) as they can be and still fit in all the text.
<nisshh> yea
<godbyk> to do that, just type \begin{multicols}{3} text goes here \end{multicols}
<godbyk> 3 is the number of columns you want.
<godbyk> (I think it maxes out at 12 or something like that.)
<nisshh> ok
<nisshh> yea
<nisshh> i only need 3 or 4 so it should be ok
<godbyk> And if you want the columns to spread across the entire page width (i.e., to spread into the margin notes area, too), wrap the multicols stuff in \begin{fullwidth} ... \end{fullwidth}.
<nisshh> ok
<nisshh> oh bugger, godbyk has jenkins taken the tex PPA down?
<godbyk> I think he was fixing something in it and couldn't re-upload it or something.
<nisshh> hmm, yea, he disabled the ppa
<nisshh> dammit
<nisshh> just when i need latex
<godbyk> well, you can always use the old-school instructions.
<nisshh> yea, thats what im looking for now
<nisshh> its just ill have to download more, and itll pake longer than the ppa
<godbyk> http://ubuntu-manual.org/getinvolved/authors#install-tl2009
<godbyk> didn't the ppa contain the same files?
<nisshh> godbyk: yea, it does, but the manual way installed alot of extra stuff that the ppa doesnt
<nisshh> which isnt required to compile the manual
<humphreybc> I've started a pad with a list of changes for maverick
<humphreybc> http://pad.ubuntu-uk.org/ump-maverick << go and look at it and add stuff, go go go
<nisshh> humphreybc: forgot about mine did you?
<humphreybc> nisshh: ?
<nisshh> humphreybc: i created one ages back
<humphreybc> oh
<humphreybc> link?
<godbyk> someone didn't read the email thread. :-)
<nisshh> hehe
<nisshh> one sec
<thorwil> "New bolder, more prominent and colourful cover"?
<humphreybc> http://typewith.me/h2Y9bitvCI
<humphreybc> ah ha
<humphreybc> thorwil: yeah, get working :P
<nisshh> humphreybc: thats the one
<vish> humphreybc: when you comment on bug you can atleast subscribe to it ;)
<vish> ;p
<thorwil> humphreybc: do it yourself!
<humphreybc> vish: I thought I got automatically subscribed
<humphreybc> thorwil: bah
<vish> humphreybc: yeah , lp is silly about that :)
<humphreybc> thorwil: that's what your job is
<nisshh> vish: hehe, your the new comment & subscribe police now :)
<humphreybc> thorwil: you have one thing to do each release, make the title page :P
<vish> nisshh: yeah , for this bug! i want everyone to subscribe to humphreybc's craziness ;p
<humphreybc> vish: I think your original comment about adding more data might have annoyed more people than I did :)
<nisshh> hehe
<humphreybc> nisshh: can we migrate your things to my pad, I have links to articles for more info :)
<nisshh> humphreybc: sure will do
<thorwil> humphreybc: no. you should know by now that i don't work on a basis like "make it bolder" just out of a whim
<vish> humphreybc: yep, i was annoyed about a bug being filed with no actual description to the problem ;)
<godbyk> vish: ooh.. which bug?  I wanna witness craziness!
<nisshh> ah you did already
<godbyk> humphreybc: you should email the list with that link.
<nisshh> oh wait, wrong link
<humphreybc> vish: you should know by now that this sort of thing is unavoidable and the bug comments should just be allowed to flow
<humphreybc> godbyk: i just did
<godbyk> ah, 'kay.
<vish> i would disagree with how this has transcribed
<humphreybc> vish: no matter how you look at it, the wallpaper sucks donkey balls
<vish> godbyk: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ubuntu-wallpapers/+bug/625193/comments/0
<manualbot> Launchpad bug 625193 in ubuntu-wallpapers "Official 10.10 wallpaper is unappealing" [Wishlist,Triaged]
<vish> godbyk: is there any basis for that bug? it just seems like mob mentality to me, rather than a person actually complaining about the wallpaper
<godbyk> vish: oh, that one.
<bilalakhtar> vish is at the wallpaper again :D
<godbyk> vish: ugh.. wait for me to wade through the new comments.  last time I read them, it was just a bunch of whinging.  lemme see if there's anything more productive now.
 * humphreybc is pretty tired about the wallpaper now
<vish> humphreybc: i'm not actually worried about the wallpaper , i would rather live with an even worse wallpaper, than reward such behavior ;)
<humphreybc> vish: i'm personally not *worried* about it, I can obviously change it. I'm worried for everyone else.
<bilalakhtar> humphreybc: You were the one who called it a joke :)
<nisshh> humphreybc: i just noticed all the OMG links in the pad, lol, you should be OMG's Marketing Manager
<bilalakhtar> nisshh: don't mention OMG! when vish is around
<nisshh> bilalakhtar: hehe
<humphreybc> nisshh: easiest place to find information
<nisshh> oops
<nisshh> true
<humphreybc> because the search actually works unlike the wiki :)
<thorwil> vish: as bad as some might behave, you create the appearance of protecting both that wallpaper design and the way it was silently introduced. you really shouldn't do that, as least as long your are not on the canonical payroll
<humphreybc> and often, there are more detailed explanations and screenshots than wiki specifications which are fairly ambiguous
<nisshh> good point
<vish> humphreybc: you guys should close commenting on the site until people calm down and learn some manners
<humphreybc> vish: we actively moderate comments
<humphreybc> why would we close comments down on a site that gets 8 million views a month?
<vish> thorwil: its a launchpad *Ubuntu* bug, and filed in ubuntu, not something that was filed in canonical tracker
<bilalakhtar> vish: It has been confirmed that this is not the final wallpaper, then why are you still protecting the design?
<humphreybc> bilalakhtar: I wouldn't say it's confirmed that it's not the default at all
<vish> bilalakhtar: i'm not protecting any design.. ;)
<humphreybc> Andrea (who'
<humphreybc> Andrea (who's a contractor for canonical) said "who said it's the final?"
<humphreybc> that's not exactly "this is not the final."
<humphreybc> and when have they ever landed an alpha wallpaper on the UI freeze in a cycle before, then gone on to change it later on? Never!
<bilalakhtar> vish: You're the one who started the discussion about OMG! . You are the one who is the other side of the coin in the wally bug
<humphreybc> anyway, all of this is off topic
<vish> bilalakhtar: no.. i'm talking about the way that bug was filed!
<humphreybc> we're here to talk about the manual
<bilalakhtar> this discussion is better off i #ayatana
<bilalakhtar> *in
<humphreybc> yeqah
<humphreybc> so bugger off and go there
<vish> its better of no where ;p
<godbyk> (still reading bug comments.  *sigh*)
<humphreybc> now, let's talk about this manual
<humphreybc> apart from the natural changes that come with a new release, we are going to make some changes to the manual itself
<thorwil> like, actually talk and not just listen to vague requirements thrown out by humphreybc?
 * bilalakhtar installs quickshot
<nisshh> hehe
<vish> thorwil: ++
<godbyk> oh, snap!  point to thorwil!  :-)
<humphreybc> thorwil: do you want to lead the project?
<nisshh> oh damn, this is getting good
<bilalakhtar> thorwil: ++
<thorwil> humphreybc: no. i want to either go about design in a seriois manner or not at all
 * bilalakhtar is curious why everyone's mind is moving away from the manual on this channel
<humphreybc> bilalakhtar: because everyone hates me :)
 * bilalakhtar doesn't hate humphreybc 
<vish> yeah, humphreybc sucks ;p!
 * vish hides
<godbyk> humphreybc: translation: if you want thorwil to design a new cover, you'll have to chat with him and provide a better description of what you're looking for, etc.
<humphreybc> thorwil: I'd like a bolder wallpaper. It's a suggestion, not a demand, but we have to start somewhere
<humphreybc> so this is the start of the discussion
<humphreybc> hence why I'm actually in the channel
<godbyk> wallpaper?
<humphreybc> i've been tied up with other things until just now
<humphreybc> no, not wallpaper
<humphreybc> wait
<humphreybc> sorry
<godbyk> lol
<humphreybc> i'm tired and confused :D
<humphreybc> _cover page_
<bilalakhtar> lol, wallpaper again :D
<nisshh> humphreybc: merged my pad with yours :)
<humphreybc> thanks nisshh
<nisshh> np
<godbyk> humphreybc: so expand on 'bolder'. what do you mean by that?  what's the message you want to convey with the cover page?
<vish> humphreybc: wasnt the initial plan of the cover page to not keep redoing it every cycle? atleast i was of that impression , thorwil ?
<bilalakhtar> humphreybc: the quickshot ppa is still having packages for lucid, no maverick packages :( what should I do? I am running maverick
<thorwil> humphreybc: i have been thinking about more emotive ways to bring the same things across the current icons do. no easy task
<humphreybc> this looks nice http://www.amazon.com/Official-Ubuntu-Book-Benjamin-Mako/dp/0137081308/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1283243654&sr=8-4
<vish> ie: only change the release # ofcourse...
<humphreybc> I know that aubergine is for commercial, orange for community
<thorwil> humphreybc: there's a strategy behind the current design and i don't want to drop it. that strategy could be changed, but the replacement has to make sense
<godbyk> Oh, hey, thorwil.. while you're here. Have you looked at the Ubuntu font much?  Should I give it a try for the headings?
<humphreybc> vish: no, we should have a new cover each cycle
<godbyk> (I haven't had time to play with the font much. I just got a copy of it a couple days ago.)
<vish> hmm..
<humphreybc> thorwil: sure, but that's what you're here to think about, right?
<vish> hmm..., "new cover each cycle"! , /me lucky thorwil is the design lead :D
<godbyk> vish: I thought that continuity was discussed at one point, but I don't recall the outcome.
<ChrisWoollard> Morning
<thorwil> a completely new cover each cycles is the opposite of showing continuity and building trust and looking like we know what we do
<humphreybc> each cycle has a new book
<godbyk> vish: no doubt!
<humphreybc> they should be differentiated
<humphreybc> I didn't really want to talk about the cover page much now, I'll start a thread in the list and we can discuss it over the next few days
<humphreybc> sound cool?
<thorwil> godbyk: i think the ubuntu font is not at all compatible with the libertine/biolinum fonts
<thorwil> humphreybc: ok
<godbyk> thorwil: It's definitely a different style, that's for sure.
<nisshh> humphreybc: check the pad about indicator applets again
<thorwil> godbyk: i doubt it will ever be a good choice for long text, but finding a good match for it ... hard
<godbyk> thorwil: Agreed.  I was looking at using it only for the chapter and section headings.
<bilalakhtar> Has the ubuntu font been opened to the public?
<thorwil> no
<godbyk> The sidenotes and captions would use the Linux Libertine typeface.  And Biolinum would be dropped completely.
<ChrisWoollard> I see things are moving forward now.
<humphreybc> godbyk: it kind of would be nice to use the new font somewhere
<humphreybc> headers seem like a good plan
<ChrisWoollard> On the Coverpage
<humphreybc> (we're using the ubuntu font on the new OMG! Ubuntu! site and it looks great)
<humphreybc> ChrisWoollard: I would say definitely on the cover page... but it will limit translations as the character set isn't very verbose at the moment
<godbyk> humphreybc: It would be nice, but only if it actually works for our purposes.
<humphreybc> godbyk: yaeh
<humphreybc> we should try it
<thorwil> godbyk: i suspect a sans font like Liberation Sans or Gillius might go better with it. for serifs, maybe Charis. but that would be taking te ubuntu font because it is the ubuntu font and forcing it in, somehow
<godbyk> thorwil: Right.  I don't want to force it in just because it's the Ubuntu font.
<godbyk> I'll play around with it for headings sometime and see how it looks.
<godbyk> I'm not holding my breath though.
<humphreybc> yeah
<godbyk> From the bug reports I've seen, there appear to be a lot of tracking/kerning issues.
<humphreybc> maybe for narwhal
<humphreybc> okay, so one of the biggest changes from lucid is the combination of two chapters
<humphreybc> the manual is going to get _shorter_
<godbyk> humphreybc: why's it getting shorter?
<humphreybc> it needs to live up to it's "Getting Started" title
<nisshh> humphreybc: whats happening to stuff like the troubleshooting chapter? getting axed?
<bilalakhtar> godbyk: chapters are merging
<humphreybc> currently, we're baffling users with information beyond "getting started"
<humphreybc> as we prepare for USLC, this information should move to the net and the manual should serve as a stepping stone for them to learn the basics to do their tasks, then if they want to learn more, we should encourage them to use USLC
<godbyk> ah. have you seen any feedback from folks who have actually read the book or used it?
<humphreybc> nope but I'd like to see some
<nisshh> iv seen a bit on UF
<godbyk> I think all the feedback I've seen has been along the lines of, 'Oh, hey, look! A free Ubuntu book!'
<humphreybc> nisshh: oh yeah?
<humphreybc> godbyk: yeah totally
<nisshh> mainly just, "its great, made it easy"
<humphreybc> that's something we need to address - reaching the right people
<nisshh> nothing in depth
<godbyk> humphreybc: So what leads you to think that our readers (if they do exist) are baffled?
<nisshh> iv seen a fair few people recommending it on UF as well
<nisshh> atleast 10-15 people
<humphreybc> godbyk: nothing, but I don't think we need to have "managing software through the terminal" when the Software Center is now mature enough.
<humphreybc> "managing software through the terminal" is NOT fundamental to "getting started with Ubuntu"
<ChrisWoollard> How about a feedback form on the website?
<nisshh> we could do that when the maverick edition gets released ChrisWoollard :)
<godbyk> humphreybc: true.  though having an intro to doing that sort of thing might be handy, since the instructions they'll find on the internet are of that nature.
<humphreybc> you do NOT need to know how to manage software through the terminal to use Ubuntu successfully and complete everyday tasks like listening to music, surfing the web or installing/removing software.
<humphreybc> godbyk: Right, so that's what I want.
<humphreybc> we should let them know other ways exist
<nisshh> good point
<godbyk> humphreybc: for instance, when OMG! posts a review of a new program, they give those apt-get instructions. not click here, then here, etc.
<humphreybc> but since this is a GETTING STARTED guide, those advanced topics will be available on the net
<humphreybc> godbyk: sure
<humphreybc> I just chose that example
<humphreybc> and anyway, that's OMG! Ubuntu!'s problem
<humphreybc> the manual shouldn't include a section to make it easy for OMG! readers to install software
<humphreybc> we can allude that commands exist, show them how to open a terminal, maybe list some common commands
<humphreybc> but we don't need step by step guides
<godbyk> Well, it's not just OMG!  The forums tend to do that, blogs do that, etc.
<humphreybc> godbyk: once again, just an example
<godbyk> I suspect the reason is that it's shorter to give the commands than guide someone through the GUI.
<humphreybc> who said people on forums and OMG! Ubuntu! are teaching it the right way?
<humphreybc> would my Mum actually go and read OMG! or sign up to UF?
<nisshh> nope
<humphreybc> who's our target audience? Very different to people who are involved in the community, I imagine
<bilalakhtar> humphreybc: When will the Quickshot PPA be ready for maverick?
<godbyk> You're suggesting that your mum doesn't even read your articles?  Wow, that's harsh!  :-P
<nisshh> lol
<humphreybc> godbyk: she's harsh
<humphreybc> bilalakhtar: something to ask jenkins
 * bilalakhtar checks if the lucid package works no maverick
<bilalakhtar> s/no/on/
<humphreybc> anyway, what I'm saying, is currently the manual has a lot of unnecessary sections, while missing important sections
<humphreybc> and that
<humphreybc> and that's to be expected because it was originally rushed together
<nisshh> humphreybc: something else we need to consider is the relevancy of the screenshots
<humphreybc> nisshh: yeah totally
<humphreybc> we need to get the file size down more too
<nisshh> some of them are pretty pointless
<humphreybc> want to get it on the CD
<nisshh> whereas others are essential
<nisshh> yea
<humphreybc> been talking to Jono and Jorge, they like the idea, just need to post to ubuntu-desktop about it
<nisshh> yea
<humphreybc> size is an issue though
<nisshh> humphreybc: well, i reckon we could get below 2MB's for maverick. with everything we are removing and shuffling around
<humphreybc> (contrary to popular belief, I don't just pull these ideas out of my arse, I do have a plan)
<humphreybc> but it appears the team's faith in me has been reduced to nearly zero
<nisshh> lets all join hands and pronounce our faith to humphreybc :)
<nisshh> humphreybc: its probably just because you have been around much less lately
 * thorwil pronounces 0.1 faith
<godbyk> humphreybc: Sorry, I don't do faith.  I prefer to know what's going on behind the curtain. :)
<humphreybc> nisshh: that would be because during the lucid cycle I was on holiday, during this cycle i've been at uni
<humphreybc> during the narwhal cycle i'll be on holiday again
<nisshh> humphreybc: ah, exactly
 * godbyk also doesn't blindly follow orders. :)
<vish> thorwil: godbyk: fun fact: Ubuntu does not have to use any of canonical's work. but Ubuntu *chooses* to.. Ubuntu can decide to not use the appmenu or anything from Canonical..  ;)
<nisshh> godbyk: sit! stay! :)
<humphreybc> vish: I don't know who would decide not to when all the developers are employed by Canonical
<humphreybc> and anyway, pretty sure Canonical owns the intellectual property related to Ubuntu
<thorwil> vish: now how's that for good behaviour, you derailer of discussions!!! ;)
<humphreybc> vish: stop going off topic
<nisshh> heh
<vish> humphreybc: what are you doing up late this night?
<humphreybc> vish: it's 9pm
<vish> humphreybc: or is football better conversation? ;p
<humphreybc> ?
 * nisshh is getting more and more confused
<humphreybc> vish: you're not helping
<humphreybc> maybe I should come back later when everyone actually wants to do something?
<godbyk> humphreybc: Who knows when that'll be!
<nisshh> lol
<nisshh> humphreybc: PM me
<vish> heh, see how easy/annoying it is for others ? ;)
<humphreybc> godbyk: vish: if you have a problem with me, it's better to tell me rather than playing games
<vish> humphreybc: dude!!!!!!!! wtf? now who has a problem? why are you taking it personal?
<godbyk> humphreybc: What games?  And I don't have a problem with you.
<vish> meh..
<godbyk> This is the most activity that's taken place in this channel in weeks.
<nisshh> no kidding
<humphreybc> it's not my fault that I am busy?
<godbyk> Aside from this, the only other conversation that's taken place in the past week has been flan and jenkins carrying on about quickshot dev stuff.
<humphreybc> if you guys are keen to get started on the manual then you don't have to wait for me
<humphreybc> seems to me that you're pissed off that I haven't been around much
<vish> humphreybc: surely its not me! i'v just been lurking here  ;)
<godbyk> I've been pretty busy myself lately, so I can't complain much. I've been trying to get folks to start work. So far nothing's happened, though.
 * humphreybc sighs
<godbyk> (I haven't had time to really get things organized, though.)
<godbyk> I think something we need to do ASAP is coerce people to commit to updating/writing each section of the manual.
<godbyk> The repository is ready for use.
<nisshh> godbyk: consider me working on it after dinner tonight
<humphreybc> godbyk: if we can get all the changes as bug reports then there will be things to assign and track
<humphreybc> then we can mail to the list and say "hey, here are a dozen open bugs that need to be fixed - go go go!"
<nisshh> right after latex finishes installing anyway
<nisshh> bbl
<humphreybc> see you soon nisshh
<ChrisWoollard> This odd. I go for breakfast and when i get back it looks like a fight has broken out.
<humphreybc> ChrisWoollard: nah, I'm just tired, thorwil is being thorwil and vish has ants in his pants
<godbyk> ChrisWoollard: Heh.. see what happens when you step away for a moment?
<vish> humphreybc: ! ;p
<godbyk> And I'm nobody. :-(
<humphreybc> hahaha
<ChrisWoollard> All I say is...... By nice......
<ChrisWoollard> s/By/Be
<thorwil> godbyk: you're infrastructure ;)
<vish> humphreybc: actually, i did not see the channel having a conversation.. i was scrolled up higher! and replied to something else on top..  looks like someone was just touchy today ;p
<thorwil> vish: see, you have to leave the ants to humphreybc's pants
<godbyk> thorwil: lol. thanks!
<humphreybc> vish: hahaha
<humphreybc> nice
<ChrisWoollard> Anyway. I am not sure what I can commit to yet. I have to complete a job application which will be a knightmare.
<godbyk> ChrisWoollard: You're applying to be a knight?  Awesome!
<ChrisWoollard> It needs to be in at the end of the week
<humphreybc> ChrisWoollard: fighting some dragons?
<ChrisWoollard> That would be easier
<humphreybc> watch out, I hear they breathe fire
<ChrisWoollard> The people on the interview panal do.
<ChrisWoollard> panel
 * popey tickles humphreybc 
<humphreybc> popey: bit stressed at the moment :)
<godbyk> run, popey, run! :)
<godbyk> ChrisWoollard: Ugh.. I hate interview panels. I always feel like I'm in front of a firing squad.
 * popey reloads
<ChrisWoollard> This is only a sideways step in my company as well.
<godbyk> You have to jump through all those hopes for a lateral transfer, ChrisWoollard? Wow!
<humphreybc> ChrisWoollard: bummer!
<humphreybc> I hope it's worth it!
<ChrisWoollard> Yes. It is a knightmare.
<ChrisWoollard> They haven't even just advertised it internally either. It has gone external too. My manger is a complete git!
<humphreybc> ChrisWoollard: what do you do?
<popey> surely thats a good thing?
<popey> get the best person for the job
<ChrisWoollard> Senior Systems Engineer
<godbyk> popey: Unless you want the job and you're not the best person. ;-)
<popey> :)
* humphreybc changed the topic of #ubuntu-manual to: #offtopic
<ChrisWoollard> Manage websites / VMware / Apache / ORacle etc
<godbyk> Look out! He's invoking op powers!
<popey> i think he meant to do that in #omg!ubuntu!
<humphreybc> can't believe I remembered that
 * vish lols at the topic!!!!!
<popey> where they're currently discussing losing their virginity
<humphreybc> popey: HA
<humphreybc> that sounds about right
<humphreybc> popey: is MichaelH in on that too?
 * popey hands humphreybc the /join command
<humphreybc> I don't care enough
<humphreybc> lol
 * popey notes
 * humphreybc is about ready for a bed after a very long day methinks
<humphreybc> Oh good, a Louis Theroux doco is on!
<humphreybc> oh god!
<humphreybc> http://www.3news.co.nz/Beer-pong-making-a-splash-in-Dunedin/tabid/728/articleID/173369/Default.aspx
<humphreybc> and I thought beer pong was reserved for terrible American high school movies
<godbyk> humphreybc: Apparently it's now reserved for that and for Dunedin inhabitants.
* humphreybc changed the topic of #ubuntu-manual to: beer pong
<humphreybc> godbyk: I live in Dunedin. Maybe I should get in on that.
<godbyk> humphreybc: Totally.
<humphreybc> I'm watching meth-heads on TV
* humphreybc changed the topic of #ubuntu-manual to: meth-heads
<ChrisWoollard> Since when did the topic start to be changed based on whatever is being talked about?
* humphreybc changed the topic of #ubuntu-manual to: changing the topic to whatever is being talked about
<vish> ChrisWoollard: looks like humphreybc just remembered the /topic command ;)
<ChrisWoollard> And how to elevate his privileges
<godbyk> ChrisWoollard: Since humphreybc stayed up past his bedtime. :-)
<vish> highten!
* humphreybc changed the topic of #ubuntu-manual to: Benjamin's bedtime
<humphreybc> kay, i'm done now
* humphreybc changed the topic of #ubuntu-manual to: Ubuntu Manual Project discussion | Lucid Edition 2 released! Go and download/buy it | Style Guide: http://files.ubuntu-manual.org/style-guide.pdf | Website: http://ubuntu-manual.org | Launchpad: https://launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual | IRC logs: http://irclogs.ubuntu.com | Ubuntu Guidelines:  http://wiki.ubuntu.com/IrcGuidelines | Code of Conduct: http://www.ubuntu.com/community/conduct/
<humphreybc> :)
<humphreybc> alright i'm out of here
<ChrisWoollard> night night
<humphreybc> hot milo, some banana cake, a documentary and bed for me
<humphreybc> i'll be back around tomorrow
<humphreybc> good times :D
<humphreybc> chowski
 * nisshh will have a surprise for humphreybc tomorrow
<nisshh> godbyk: is the branch for maverick changes just lp:ubuntu-manual? or is there a new one?
<thorwil> seems we had a surprise for him today, already
<godbyk> nisshh: I think so.  Though you can use lp:ubuntu-manual/maverick to be sure you get the right one.
<nisshh> thorwil: lol
<nisshh> godbyk: ok
<popey> nisshh: you going for ubuntu membership right now in #ubuntu-meeting ?
<nisshh> popey: oh shit yea, i forgot
<popey> meeting just started
<nisshh> popey: yea, ill wait
<ChrisWoollard> Well done nisshh
<nisshh> ChrisWoollard: thanks dude
<nisshh> it was a unanimous vote too
<ChrisWoollard> that is nice.
<thorwil> congratulations, nisshh (happened while i had lunch)
<ChrisWoollard> did you get lots more testimonials?
<nisshh> thorwil: thanks
<nisshh> ChrisWoollard: i had 1 before now i have 4
<ChrisWoollard> that is better
<nisshh> yea
<nisshh> brb, just testing my cloak
<nisshh> oooh, works
<popey> it was there before you tested it :)
<popey> 12:34:38 -!- nisshh [~ryan@ubuntu/member/nisshh] has joined #ubuntu-manual
<popey> 12:36:15 < nisshh> brb, just testing my cloak
<nisshh> popey: :O
<nisshh> didn see it
<flan> Oh, no. The guy I wanted to poke at to ask question.
<flan> questions*
<nisshh> flan: thorwil im guessing?
<flan> Nah. bilalakhtar.
<nisshh> ah ok
<flan> He applied for Quickshot yesterday.
<nisshh> yea
<ChrisWoollard> nisshh: For bug https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual/+bug/609085 I think we should just update the screenshot for maverick with one that shows the options for wireless and wired. With regard to the text. We don't want to make things complicated.
<manualbot> Launchpad bug 609085 in ubuntu-manual "Inappropriate NetworkManager screenshot" [Medium,New]
<nisshh> ChrisWoollard: exactly, i agree. I just didnt want to touch the bug until i know whats going on
<nisshh> ChrisWoollard: ill makr in for maverick-alpha then
<nisshh> mark it*
<ChrisWoollard> We just defered it until maverick
<nisshh> ah ok
<nisshh> didnt see that
<nisshh> ChrisWoollard: you know the maverick branch is getting worked on now?
<ChrisWoollard> It was a discussion on IRC between Godbyk and myself before the release of lucid e2.
<nisshh> ok
<ChrisWoollard> I forgot to update the text of the bug
<ChrisWoollard> The maverick branch is ok to work on. Godbyk got it ready last week.
<nisshh> yea
<nisshh> ChrisWoollard: have a look at the bugs page for the manual, i just fixed all the open bugs except that one
<nisshh> in the maverick branch
<ChrisWoollard> I did notice all the e-mails ;)
<nisshh> hehe
<nisshh> ok, who the hell edited the maverick changes pad and changed half of it to a different language
<nisshh> ChrisWoollard: ^^^^
<ChrisWoollard> what
<ChrisWoollard> lanuage?
<ChrisWoollard> That is weird. It changed between the change i made and the change that Sayantan Das made.
<ChrisWoollard> I am english and speak only english. So I really cannot believe that anything that I have done would do that.
<nisshh> yea
<nisshh> ChrisWoollard: im not saying it was you, i just cant get it to change back
<ChrisWoollard> I wonder if translate in google chrome changed it.
<ChrisWoollard> I have fixed it :)
<nisshh> ChrisWoollard: thanks
<ChrisWoollard> np
<ChrisWoollard> But whatever the case. It wasn't me that broken it. I just didn't noticed when i added a note.
<nisshh> yea, thats cool
<flan> Anyonw know when jenkins usually appears?
<flan> Anyone know the channel for Glade?
<flan> Oh. #glade3.
<flan> ...On irc.gnome.org.
<flan> Anyone here have experience troubleshooting Glade errors?
<Muscovy> Can the Maverick manual compile currently?
<brandonj> Muscovy: there are some errors
<Muscovy> Ok, I thought it might have been my edits.
<flan> jenkins! Yay!
<jenkins> hey flan not waiting or any thing :)
<flan> How can I actually edit the Glade files? I keep getting catalogue errors when I try.
<jenkins> do you not use glade?
<flan> I've been trying.
<flan> It just fails.
<jenkins> do you have quickly installed?
<flan> Sating a required catalogue file was missing. And naming the file declared at the top of the .ui.
<flan> QuickshotWindow.ui -> missing quickshot_window
<flan> I can load the files with pygtk without issue.
<flan> Can you open them with Glade?
<flan> I've tried on both Karmic and Lucid.
<jenkins> I don't know I just do quickly design which loads them in glade. I will try and open them with just glade
<flan> Oh. Well, I hadn't thought of trying quickly to load them...
<flan> Okay... That works...
<jenkins> you need to be in the source folder.
 * flan doesn't trust Quickly.
<flan> It does weird things.
<flan> WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEIRD things.
<jenkins> thats all we use quickly for now. I do all the release stuff with other commands
<jenkins> have you just skipped the welcome screen for now?
<jenkins> have you contacted the new member
<jenkins> Bilal Akhtar (bilalakhtar) ?
<flan> The welcome screen can't be the first thing we display. Or, if it is, it needs a lot less information.
<flan> I have not. He left the channel just before I got to work.
<flan> Not every project will require a custom username.
<flan> Not every project will require a resolution change.
<flan> The first thing we need to do is ask the user to choose a project (defaulting to any they may have passed as an argument), then configure their environment, if necessary.
<jenkins> basied on my chats with godbyk we will need a welcoem screen. I have not fixed any of the text or anything like that
<flan> Thus making the welcome screen step 2, as a specific welcome to the project they're working on. If we even retain it.
<jenkins> interesting idea
<flan> We could merge the welcome screen with the project-selection screen.
<flan> Welcome to Quickshot! <logo/>
<flan> To get started, please choose a project.
<flan> Recent: listbox.
<flan> Available online: listbox
<jenkins> yea something like that sounds good
<flan> Local file: selection-textbox + ...
<flan> Project URL: textbox.
<flan> With a 'Get started!' button beside each row.
<flan> Each one occupies a slot in a vbox. Separators between them are optional.
<jenkins> hmm not sure about the button buy each one would have to see how it looks
<flan> First step, though, is to move every window to its own project. I think you can just cut/paste, but I'm not sure.
<flan> Well, we'll need some way of disambiguating.
<jenkins> I asked you about this and you said it was fine as it was :P
<flan> What if a user clicks a recent screenshot, but also pastes a URL?
<flan> What if the user things every field needs to be filled out?
<flan> I did. But that's before I realized that Glade uses the XML ID property to name window elements.
<flan> Preventing us from reusing names across windows.
<flan> Which is very ugly.
<flan> Since we'd need to have a common namespace, rather than a bunch of isolated ones.
<ChrisWoollard> jenkins: how is your wiki coming long.
<jenkins> ok flan
<flan> If you can split the windows apart today, I can bind them all and give us transparent button-click-passthrough behaviour tonight.
<flan> If not, I'll split them once I get home.
<jenkins> ChrisWoollard: erm I have not done any thing to it yet :(.
<jenkins> flan: I will have ago at spliting them
<flan> thanks.
<flan> Sorry to make you redo work. :(
 * flan should have done more research.
<ChrisWoollard> What is the page? Have I written on it yet?
<jenkins> no worries flan I will have it done quickly going on the first one
<flan> Oh. When splitting, make every window's body the top-level element. This means using a box with a content-count of 1.
<jenkins> ChrisWoollard: erm I will find it for you
<jenkins> flan: so the first hbox or vbox is box 1 ?
<flan> I'm basically just ripping out that element and reparenting it to the other architecture. This will give us the freedom of building a more wizard-like system in the future, if we decide against multi-window for any reason.
<flan> (I'm not sure which is better)
<flan> The first one should just be called 'box_main'. It doesn't matter what its type is, as long as it only has one child.
<jenkins> ChrisWoollard: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Membership/RegionalBoards/EMEA
<ChrisWoollard> No... Your wiki page. So i can write something nice
<jenkins> right ok i will name it box_main
<flan> (box_main' is plain, but it forms a simple consistency)
<jenkins> ChrisWoollard: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LukeJennings there is still nothing there work has rather taken more time than I would like.
<ChrisWoollard> Doesn't matter. It is still a step in the right direction.
<jenkins> thanks ChrisWoollard, I will make sure I write on yours as well
<ChrisWoollard> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/cwoollard
<flan> Mmm... Styrofoam-like noodles in boiling water with power-based soup-stock...
<jenkins> you always manage to make me hungry
<flan> o.0
<flan> You... must have very low standards where food is concerned.
 * flan can think of far more appetizing, far healthier things to eat.
<flan> Like... uh... dirt.
<jenkins> well i found the word cake in the screenshots list yesterday
<flan> Cake is dlicious.
 * jenkins goes to get toffies
<flan> You Brits and your tasty-sounding snack-items.
<jenkins> I have each window in seperate files now
<flan> Yay.
<flan> I'll link some stuff as soon as I get a break, then.
<jenkins> brilliant, anything you would like me to do/try to do?
<flan> Sure. Exit project_window.py and change the name of the file it loads to the name of the file you just created and see if 'quickly run' still works.
<flan> project_selection.py*
<jenkins> ok I will have a go
<flan> If it does, duplicate project_selection for all other windows we'll need to display, setting their strings and size-requests appropriately.
<flan> Swap them in and out of the quickshot script to see if they all load and display as expected.
<ChrisWoollard> Jenkins: Done. I hope that is ok
<jenkins> thats great thanks ChrisWoollard, hope the one i did was ok
<ChrisWoollard> that is great. thanks
<jenkins> flan: in the project_sleection.py file you specify the size of the window but the glade file also does that which one is the winner/correct one?
<flan> The one specified in the .py file.
<jenkins> ok cool I will get changing them
<flan> I could probably ask the Glade file for its dimensions, though.
<flan> To make it cleaner.
<flan> In any case, anything you add/change/do in the .py will override anything in the .ui.
<flan> If you get a label reference and call set_text() in Python, it'll override what came from Glade.
<jenkins> well I don't mind they are already in the glade stuff. I am not sure that it makes a differnce
<flan> It's fine if they're in both places.
<flan> But it's probably easier if I read them from Glade.
<flan> Easier maintenance-wise.
<flan> Or maybe not.
<flan> Up to you.
<jenkins> I think reading from the glade file would be easier to maintain
<ChrisWoollard> Jenkins: I added a couple more things :D
<jenkins> yey thanks I have got it in my mind to add to yours if i think of anything
<jenkins> flan: if I have now made a .py file for every window does that not mean that
<jenkins> ignore that ment to delete it I miss understood something
<flan> 'Kay.
<flan> Want something else to do?
<ChrisWoollard> jenkins: I have added my name to the list :)
<flan> I presume they all load now.
<jenkins> flan: I will just double check that I got destracted sorting out breakdown cover.
<jenkins> i don't understand how to specify a different file/window in the bin/quickshot file
<jenkins> good luck ChrisWoollard I will try and get mine detailed up
<flan> Just hack it into place. At the end of the file, comment out the window-setup code that I have in place and add "import quickshot.gui.whatever" "x = quickshot.gui.whatever.WhateverWindow()" "x.show()"
<jenkins> I think my wiki page could read jenkins tries his best but does not always excel. Thats how I feel with quickshot
<ChrisWoollard> It shouldn't take long.  You can do it.
<flan> I'll clean up any inconsistencies with arguments and stuff later.
<ChrisWoollard> Nope, you have to big yourself up.
<ChrisWoollard> You don't get anywhere if you don't believe in yourself.
<jenkins> flan: ok thats what i thought it might be.
<flan> The important point is that we should have everything from Glade being displayed properly so you can work on layout and appearance, while being confident that your changes will be reflected directly.
<jenkins> ChrisWoollard: yea I know :)
<jenkins> i sucks I am so busy and have not very much time for the manual stuff. Are well roll on going back to uni next year :)
<flan> Once we get to Qs 1.0, it'll eat up a lot less of your time.
<flan> It'll be more maintainable and we shouldn't need to do a full rewrite ever again.
<jenkins> I hope so, I do like doing quickshot it is a great learning experince and a lot fo fun
<flan> Well, it's going to still get some work...
<flan> The site-as-a-project-source feature, for one thing.
<flan> That'll probably be 1.1 for the client.
<flan> For now, we'll just have to disable that section of the UI.
<jenkins> I like packaging it and I want to package for as many different distros
<flan> Yeah... I'd like to see packages for different systems, too.
<jenkins> I definatly still want to work on extra fetures where I can and where you will help
<jenkins> me learn
<flan> Maybe a break from the dependence on Gnome, to make it easier to use under KDE.
<flan> (Assuming it doesn't work in KDE already)
<flan> Sorry I'll kinda be taking control for this week. :(
<flan> Deadline's a bit too close, I'm afraid.
<jenkins> no worries I could do with the boost. there are some commands that don't work in kde
<jenkins> there is the kde equivilent in the quickshot/enviroment_details.py file
<ChrisWoollard> ping godbyk
<jenkins> I would like a qt gui for kde
<flan> Considering the specialised nature of Quickshot, I don't think having a Qt GUI would be truly necessary.
<flan> It might be a good learning project, though.
<flan> And it wouldn't be too hard for you to do on your own.
<flan> Just getting the libraries working in KDE would be enough for me.
<jenkins> hmm the panel in mavrick has locked up
<flan> Please copy the updated client-library into place (server/__init__.py on the client-side). I added in-schema versioning, rather than in-protocol.
<jenkins> ok will do
<flan> Yes, I did just commit what you think I just committed.
<jenkins> I have no clue what you mena
<flan> And I just broke the server.
<jenkins> lol
<flan> HARDCORE.
<jenkins> hope you can fis it
<jenkins> *fix
<flan> Oh, yeah. It's easy.
<flan> I just thought datetime implemented __cmp__ against date.
<flan> It doesn't.
<flan> All better.
<flan> http://flan.uguu.ca:5000/ump/10-04/.qsproj Two new fields: system.version and meta.expiration-date
<jenkins> nice
<flan> Oh. I just thought of something you might find helpful...
<flan> I'll update the client library again tonight.
<flan> It might be helpful if you were to know whether you could display the project's URL or not.
<flan> And what the URL is.
<flan> Or maybe I'll update it again now.
<flan> Or in ten minutes.
<flan> Who knows? I'm crazy.
<jenkins> cool, in the project_selection file at the bottom it has project_selection_window = ProjectSelectionWindow() and there is a ProjectSelectionWindow.ui file which has nothing in it. do i need to make blank file for each window?
<flan> No.
<flan> That was probably me using touch and bzr add without concern for who I'd be confusing.
<flan> Remove the blank file.
<flan> I must've forgotten to do that befoire committing.
<jenkins> ok do i need to change that line in each file?
<flan> That line should point at the real .ui.
<flan> It's there so we can implement the dummy tests we discussed before.
<flan> Loading an individual window and playing with its content without actually going through the steps.
<flan> ...I think.
<flan> Maybe we're talking about different lines.
<jenkins> line 39
<flan> Which file?
<flan> Never mind. Found it.
<flan> Yeah, that line should be modified to reflect the file in which it resides.
<flan> screenshot_selection.py should have screenshot_selection_window/ScreenshotSelectionWindow(), for example.
 * flan likes long, verbose variable names.
<jenkins> thats what i guessed thanks, I will change my misktakes
<flan> (So much more readable than 'psw' or 'proj_sel_win')
<jenkins> i agree
<flan> Your assumptions are probably right in general.
<flan> If they're not, I'll fix them when I get to it.
<flan> Just go with what seems to make sense.
<flan> Another client-library update's been pushed. New functionality for you: get_address():str/None
<flan> You don't have to make use of it, but it might be nice to give the user a clickable link on the screenshot-selection window, in case they want to see how the project's doing.
<jenkins> yep copied it accross
<flan> Yay.
 * flan prepares for a long evening spent with relatives.
<jenkins> have fun
<flan> I'll try.
<flan> Quickshot when I get home.
<jenkins> I don't appear to make each window open on quickly run yet. I am correcting all the py files for errors of stuff i did not change
<flan> I won't be home for about five hours.
<flan> Feel free to commit non-functioning code.
<flan> I'll go over it and try to make everything consistent and working.
<flan> So you can focus on making it look good.
<jenkins> I think I will go to bed soon. I can't work out why each window will not open and so I have left it broken at the moment
<flan> 'Kay.
<flan> I'll try to ensure everything's fine when you're available tomorrow.
<flan> +for
<jenkins> thanks
<jenkins> night all
<flan> G'night.
#ubuntu-manual 2010-09-01
<thorwil> good morning!
<nisshh> hey thorwil :)
 * thorwil starts to work on the quickshot logo
<godbyk> Mmm.. strawberries are delicious.
<godbyk> And I have two pounds of 'em.. all to myself!
<humphreybc> lol
<humphreybc> what's up?
<godbyk> Not much.
<humphreybc> not much is good
<godbyk> I should amend that: not much *at the moment*.. other than eating strawberries and watching hulu. :)
<vish> hehe, for a sec i thought thorwil was gonna choke someone when they mentioned using a meerkat ;p
<thorwil> vish: how would you know i didn't? ;)
<vish> thorwil: I dint say i know you dint.. i thought you would ;p
<godbyk> vish: lol.
<godbyk> thorwil: true.. they haven't replied on that thread since... Hmm...
<thorwil> vish: actually, the meerkat was nothing compared to turning "at least 3" into a definitive change after 3
<godbyk> yeah.. if I remember correctly, the 'at least three' meant that we'd stick with the same design for the whole set from LTS until the next. (changing at each LTS)
<humphreybc> ?
<vish> thorwil: well, i never knew when the plan was to have a new cover every release..  when i had done the alpha version, the plan was to just change the color at the tip alone every release.. and i thought that a single cover of sometime was the basis for rejecting wolter's design..  the sometime being for every LTS
<thorwil> godbyk: heh, it was really just 3 in the sense of one more than a pair. you know the way you would put at least 3 elements into an icon, if you mean a group
<vish> apart from thorwil's fear of the lynx ;p
<godbyk> thorwil: ah, okay.
<godbyk> vish: heh.. yeah. no one wanted to take on the task of drawing the new mascots each time.
<vish> godbyk: if we some how convinced thorwil to use a meerkat .. pretty sure wolter will get pissed ;p
<thorwil> godbyk: not just that. lynx would have been cool, though not hitting the desired posture/tone. meerkats would be ok. but a narwhal? catastrophe
<godbyk> vish: ha! so true.
<godbyk> thorwil: Hey, now. Don't diss narwhals!
<vish> NARWHAAAAAAAAALLSSSSS rule!
<thorwil> yaya, they're awesome
<thorwil> jedi unicorns of the sea
<vish> http://weebls-stuff.com/songs/Narwhals/
<nigelb> vish: you must be banned :p you're getting more people addicted :D :D :D
<thorwil> addicted? i went 2 weeks without and only started to shiver a little bit
<nigelb> thorwil: lol
<nisshh> zkriesse: i didnt know you ran the Youth Team :)
<flan> http://chipx86.github.com/gtkparasite/ I fully intend to use this in my next GTK project, if only because of the artwork.
<nisshh> flan: that project looks awesome, im going to check it out some more :)
<flan> Lemme know if you find any really cool uses for it.
<flan> I'm thinking it'll allow for better testing of procedural workflow designs.
<flan> Like what we're doing with Quickshot. So we can bypass my whole insistance on making every window individually runnable.
<flan> If a console can hijack the current window at any point, everything would become super-easy.
<flan> Heck. I'm gonna switch modes and start using it tonight.
<flan> It looks like a much cleaner approach.
<flan> Aww... He died. :(
<flan> His brain was eated by cute.
<flan> 10:24 < flan> Like what we're doing with Quickshot. So we can bypass my whole
<flan>               insistance on making every window individually runnable.
<flan> 10:24 < flan> If a console can hijack the current window at any point,
<flan>               everything would become super-easy.
<flan> 10:25 < flan> Heck. I'm gonna switch modes and start using it tonight.
<flan> 10:25 < flan> It looks like a much cleaner approach.
<flan> 10:25 -!- nisshh [~ryan@ubuntu/member/nisshh] has quit [Ping timeout: 258
<flan>           seconds]
<flan> 10:26 < flan> Aww... He died. :(
<flan> 10:26 < flan> His brain was eated by cute.
 * flan spams.
<nisshh> flan: my net crapped itself at that point
<nisshh> everything just went *pop* and dissapeared
<nisshh> :)
<flan> Nope. Brain eated by cute.
<flan> True statement.
<flan> End of discussion.
<nisshh> lol flan :)
<jenkins> flan: ping
<thorwil> ping
<vish> thorwil: that was a sad little piggy, err. ping! ;p
<thorwil> vish: well, it worked, without addressee ;)
<thorwil> but i fully support a pong for jenkins
<jenkins> hey thorwil and vish how are you?
<vish> thorwil: no worries,i'v got your 6! ;)
<vish> jenkins: hey.. sleepy ;)  [ just about to hit the sack :) ]
<jenkins> flan: http://imagebin.org/112298 what is the purpose of the bits circled in red?
<thorwil> jenkins: good, self?
<jenkins> sleep well vish
<jenkins> I am good thanks thorwil
<thorwil> jenkins: i would suspect custom widgets to fill those gaps
<jenkins> I suspect so as well but I just want to double check as the window is not organised as I would expect
<jenkins> as far as glade goes
<thorwil> got 2 artwork requests today, still a lack of those willing to pay, though
<jenkins> thats not good, out of interest whats the going rate?
<jenkins> I am a poor student :P
<thorwil> jenkins: varies a lot. from 200 for like a full week to 450 per day, so far :}
<jenkins> nice :)
<thorwil> jenkins: recommendations say one should take at least 60 â¬ per hour as freelancer
<jenkins> there are recomendations for that sort of thing
<thorwil> of course
<jenkins> whats that page that ben added the projects to that tells you its worth if we paid everyone
<thorwil> if i wouldn't live for cheap as it is already, i would have to move to some place in asia, or something
<thorwil> ohloh?
<flan> jenkins, they're just spacers. You'll see when you run it.
<thorwil> http://www.ohloh.net/p/ubuntu-manual
<jenkins> i thought they were any objections to removing them and reorganising the boxes flan?
<flan> In the meantime, Parasite. I'm gonna drop the every-window-can-run-itself push in favour of using that. It looks awesome. (Google Parasite + Gnome)
<flan> You can do whatever you feel looks good.
<flan> I just provided my idea.
<flan> Just make sure it's completely obvious. Like, that the user can't possibly get confused and fill in more information than they have to to complete any specific step.
<flan> (To that end, I feel that a unique button is necessary for each path)
<jenkins> thanks thorwil that was it
 * flan AFKs for 1.5 hours.
<jenkins> flan: i want to keep the idea just reduce the boxes used etc
<jenkins> later flan
<jenkins> godbyk: ping
<bilalakhtar> jenkins: hey!
<jenkins> hey bilalakhtar I was about to contact you
<jenkins> what would you like to help with?
<bilalakhtar> jenkins: yes! I have branched the quickshot source, looking at it its clear it isn't running on maverick
<bilalakhtar> jenkins: I am using maverick , can fix bugs
<bilalakhtar> flan: Thanks for the memo!
<jenkins> cool well it should work up to the first screen opening and that is as far as the gui goes at the moment
<bilalakhtar> yes it does work to the full screne
<bilalakhtar> then tells me I should be using lucid
<bilalakhtar> I can easily solve that
<jenkins> really what branch have you got i am using mavrick and do not have that?
<jenkins> what revison is it?
<bilalakhtar> jenkins: ah, I misused the word 'branch'
<bilalakhtar> jenkins: I apt-get sourced from the PPA
 * bilalakhtar branches it off now
<bilalakhtar> jenkins: Actually I wanted to look at the deps
<jenkins> are thats why its not working, we are rewrting from scratch at the moment so the old version is rather obsolete
<jenkins> http://imagebin.org/112304 is the new first page
<bilalakhtar> jenkins: cool!
<jenkins> i wrote the lucid thing as a fail safe for the manual team to avoid people taking screenshots on other versoins of ubuntu
<jenkins> you will need to install quickly
<bilalakhtar> jenkins: really?
<bilalakhtar> hmm, ok
<jenkins> well the project started as a quickly project and we have not worked out / had time to work out how to open the glade files with out doing "quickly design"
<bilalakhtar> jenkins: Ah, that isn't difficult at all!
<bilalakhtar> builder = gtk.Builder()
<bilalakhtar> builder.add_from_file('PATH_TO_UI_FILE')
<bilalakhtar> that's it!
<jenkins> is that how to open them in glade to edit them?
<bilalakhtar> jenkins: to open them in glade a double-click works
<bilalakhtar> jenkins: you mean for the quickly UIs? I don't know about that
<jenkins> yea me nether thats the only reason we are still using quickly o and quickly run but i expect there is an equivalent to that as well
<bilalakhtar> jenkins: Project QStream on LP started off as a quickly project; in the middle I transitioned it away from Quickly because I don't like quickly
<bilalakhtar> jenkins: and it appears I am not interested in quickshot any more, sorry
<bilalakhtar> jenkins: I would contribute to the Ubuntu Manual rather
<thorwil> jenkins: may i suggest "Welcome to Quickshot!  Capture screenshots in a variety of languages, under specific conditions, to submit them to documentation projects." as short is better
<bilalakhtar> jenkins: you are free to decline me from the team
<jenkins> how come whats worng with quickly. I do all the release stuff?
<jenkins> thanks for the suggestion
<bilalakhtar> jenkins: I will see tomorrow; I have experience with Python and can definitely help; okay I will work
<jenkins> you should give feed back to didrocks in #quickly he always want its. thanks that would be great
<jenkins> look forward to talking to you tomorrow
<bilalakhtar> Thanks jenkins !
<jenkins> no problem thank you have a good evening/day (depending on time zone)
<bilalakhtar> jenkins: I have decided; just managed to run quickshot, looks good, don't have a good bandwidth right now so cannot install quickly, I will surely help now, starting from tomorrow. its late night in here
<jenkins> cool, I will try and find out a way of not using quickly run and quickly desgin so you don't need to use them
<bilalakhtar> bye, going
<jenkins> flan: for some reason now the .ui files open in glade by clicking them
<flan> I removed the legacy dependencies from the files.
<flan> Their broken-except-by-opening-in-Quickly-ness bothered me.
<jenkins> hey flan i tried to assign the start from url to the button but I could not get the button to do anything how do I get it to import into the bin/quickshot file? I tried the normal way
<flan> I don't like Quickly, either, for the record.
<flan> Like, at all.
<flan> I think it embodies the same things I hate about using IDEs.
<flan> And Glade over GTK calls.
<flan> But I'm a control freak.
<jenkins> well as the .ui files now open by clicking. what is the quickly run eqivilent command and we can stop using it
<flan> It should just be ./quickshot
<flan> Open the script in Python.
<flan> You can continue using quickly run and quickly design, if you want.
<flan> I've servered the core dependencies on Quickly.
<flan> (I broke them all last night 'cause I didn't install Quickly before getting into my dad's truck, aos I had to develop stuff offline)
<jenkins> I would like to know the equivlients as I would like to stop using quickly as i do all the release stuff and thats the hard bit
<flan> Don't worry too much about wiring the buttons for now. I'll implement the main page tonight, to give you a working model for further development.
<flan> sc source
<flan> cd source #*
<flan> bin/quickshot
<flan> It should "just work".
<jenkins> o right we can stop using quickly
<flan> But a better solution would be to move quickshot out of bin/ and add a file-specific rule to the Debian path information.
 * jenkins does sudo apt-get remove quickly
<flan> We still want the quickshot/ package in python-shared. But we also want to avoid import-path-mangling.
<flan> Which using bin/ requires us to do.
<flan> I'd advise against that.
<flan> Keep using Quickly until we've got this working for the Maverick launch.
<flan> Then we'll remove all legacy references to it in time for the official 1.0 release.
<jenkins> well i can soon change the rules file so that the bin/quickshot file is some where else in the source
<flan> Maverick will likely be server:1.0.0-preview and client:0.9.x.
<jenkins> cool
<jenkins> installed quickly again
<flan> We'll fix bugs in each as they appear.
<flan> And simultaneously commit non-critical enhancements to get the client up to 1.0.0 around the same time we release the manual.
<flan> So, for now, getting it working's the biggest thing.
<jenkins> sounds good. anything else I cna do
<flan> I see you didn't like my separators. =P
 * flan has a habit of using <hr/>s in web pages, too.
<jenkins> I am going to redo the about window when I get the time. I could not decide on the separators I decided against them in the end
<flan> It looks good without them, though.
<flan> For now, an error-reporting window is a must.
<flan> I don't care if we just use GTKDialog (if you think it looks good) or subclass it or create a totally new window.
<flan> But we need to be able to tell the user that a problem occurred, that details are available, and ask them to tell the program what to do to recover.
<jenkins> how much do we want to display to the user? can we just say "an error occured pleas click "file a bug" to tell us what went wrong"  ?
<jenkins> I have no clue how they would recover the program but as we have apport support the bug stuff should be easy as it pulls in the last three logs
<flan> "Oops! Something went wrong." "The gist of the problem is <...>" "The gory details follow." ("This error is non-recoverable", [send bug report] [make the developers guess at the problem] | "You can try contacting the server again" [Do it] [Nah] | "Your system's messed up beyond repair" [that sucks])
<flan> Not every problem will need a bug report.
<flan> If the Qs server crashes mid-op or the user's network connection drops, we don't really care, from a bug-fixing standpoint.
<flan> If it's an unhandled exception, then we'll need to ask for a report/let apport handle that/however whatever works.
<jenkins> I think a gtk dialog is fine
<flan> 'Kay.
<flan> We can just use TextWrap to make it multi-line, as necessary.
<jenkins> yep
<flan> I'll write the convenience class behind it tonight, too.
<flan> So, then, I guess the next thing you'll need to do is prototype the "Okay, the server's up and it told me I need to be a user named 'Juan Giseppe'. Why is this important and how can I set it up?" window.
<flan> Should the user be given the option to skip this step?
<jenkins> so the manual user case of a consitant user name on the pc or they need to give us details to do the project
<flan> The manual user for consistency.
<jenkins> also can we remove the http://imagebin.org/112311 bit please. alot of our windows are fixed dimensions so do not/can not be resized
<jenkins> k'ay
<flan> We can't collect contributor details this early, since they may need to change to another user.
<flan> And then ~/.quickshot will change.
<flan> If we let them skip this, there should be a warning that'll tell them that the project administrators may not be able to accept all uploaded screenshots.
<flan> If we don't let them skip it, then, obviously, there won't be a warning.
<jenkins> well we should only show it if the project needs it and not allow skiping
<flan> That thing you pointed out is actually a status bar. I always find them a good way of providing background information to users about what's going on.
<flan> For example, "Attempting to contact server..."
<flan> Okay. No skipping.
<flan> username = details['config'].get('username')
<flan> if username:
<flan>   if not-current-user:
<flan>     show_window
<flan> Probably also if it is the current user, but the Common attribute differs from what's expected.
<flan> This is normally the user's "real name".
<jenkins> ok can we remove the right hand dots form the status bar?
<flan> I think so. I'll look into that tonight.
<jenkins> it makes sense to keep the status bar. kay thanks
<flan> I'm kinda surprised that calling set_resizable(False) leaves them enabled.
<jenkins> I don't know its strange
<flan> Oh.
<flan> That's easy.
<flan> In base.py, add the following:
<flan> (Anywhere that makes sense after self._sbr... has been declared)
<flan> Actually, no.
<flan> Don't do it there.
<flan> project_selection.py
<flan> Find the code that says "self.set_resizable(...)"
<flan> Immediately below that, add this line: self._sbr_<...>.set_has_resize_grip(self.get_resizable())
<flan> Where <...> is whatever I called the status bar in base.py.
<flan> Replicate that through all the new .py files.
<jenkins> ok thanks will do
<flan> Reference: http://www.pygtk.org/docs/pygtk/class-gtkstatusbar.html#method-gtkstatusbar--set-has-resize-grip
<jenkins> yep that works, There is one window that is allowed to be expanded so i will not take it off of that
<flan> Add the code anyway.
<flan> It only disables it if the window is itself unresizable.
<flan> If the window's resizable, the code's a no-op, effectively.
<flan> It's just more consistent and it leaves full control in the Glade layer.
<flan> (In case you ever want to make the window fixed-size-y.
<jenkins> done, i will do a very rough user account set up window and tidy it up tomorrow.
<flan> 'Kay.
<flan> The next step after that is screen-resolution.
<flan> (Probably)
<flan> (Maybe it's uploader details)
<flan> (But we can inject uploader details later)
<jenkins> I will look at those tomorrow I need to go to bed soon. uploader one is there already
<flan> 'Kay.
<flan> I'll probably retouch all the Glade files today to make sure all the objects have conventional names.
<flan> btn_whatever
<flan> I probably won't mess with layout.
<flan> I'll just get the welcome screen working and move some logic into modules/comments in appropriate modules.
<flan> And get an error-reporting system in place.
<flan> And the recent-projects system.
<jenkins> cool I have done a rought window that looks awful but will do fine for if you want to impliment it will push it in about 10 mins
<flan> 'Kay.
<flan> I'm leaving aesthetics to you.
<flan> Hopefully, we'll be able to maintain pace with each other until we're ready for the next UMP burst.
<jenkins> we should be able to if i can get all the windows you want implace with all the boxes etc in it I can paly with the lay out untill my heart is content
<flan> <3
<jenkins> right night flan and all
<flan> G'night~
#ubuntu-manual 2010-09-02
<thorwil> flan, nisshh, vish: http://www.foopics.com/showfull/cb9b56043d6a15f0c3e3cef29f89b63b
<vish> thorwil: interesting.. but i seem to have forgotten what we wanted for quickshot..
<vish> an icon?
 * vish should stop being everywhere , and start to FOCUS! :(
<thorwil> vish: well, this is an icon ;)
<thorwil> vish: why? it feels familiar everywhere because you are already there!!
<vish> ;p
<nisshh> thorwil: whats that picture about?
<thorwil> nisshh: i could bet you saw a draft, that you would have to ask puzzles me
<nisshh> thorwil: im talking about the link you pinged me about 2 hours ago
<nisshh> i was afk
<thorwil> nisshh: quickshot icon
<nisshh> thorwil: ah, ok
<flan> Works for me, thorwil.
<thorwil> cool
<flan> Once you've finalized it, can I get a favicon version, too? (It can probably be the samea s the icon for window managers)
<flan> I can just generate one myself from the full-size reference, if needed, though.
<flan> Oh. And the server needs a logo. It could, if this is aesthetically acceptable to you, be that, with "Quickshot" written in a neutral font to the right. Maybe. (I dunno. I'm not a designer)
<flan> http://flan.uguu.ca:5000/ump/10-04 Just something to sit in the top left corner so it doesn't seem so bland.
<flan> I'll be tweaking the CSS based on feedback from users during the Maverick run, so the colours and sizing aren't finalized or anything.
<thorwil> ok
<daker> godbyk, ping
<jenkins> hey flan
<flan> Hi.
<jenkins> am i ok to push stuff to the branch
<flan> Yep. I won't be making any changes until I get home anyway.
<flan> And, even if I were, I could just pull before committing.
<flan> You shouldn't ever need to ask.
<flan> Oh. I've got someone who's willing to help rewrite and test the library functions.
<jenkins> cool who?
<flan> So I'll probably invite him to join until we're at 1.0.
<flan> Just a friend I know from other venues. He's new to Python, but he's pretty meticulous about quality.
<jenkins> ok cool sounds good
<flan> He's just gonna write the user-status-screening and WM-integration stuff while I work on the UI-to-library bindings and event logic.
<flan> While you work on the layout and appearance stuff.
<thorwil> jenkins: hi! http://www.foopics.com/showfull/cb9b56043d6a15f0c3e3cef29f89b63b
<jenkins> thorwil: looks great! can we play with the back ground colours? 3 different ones may be
<jenkins> be back in 10 mins being called to dry up
<thorwil> jenkins: ty. better not. i think of the 3 shots as being in one series, so theme doesn't change, just windows
<flan> Ia gree.
<flan> Iagr ee.
<jenkins> k makes sense
<jenkins> but can you make the arrows and the camera more distinct?
<jenkins> I am really pleased with thoses thorwil
<thorwil> jenkins: i could. maybe i will. though i made them subtle to not distract and also because the smaller sizes don't have those details at all
<jenkins> I see your point it, I think it depends on the angle of my laptop screen, I will print it out tomorrow and have a look.
<jenkins> can you e-mail/put in the branch a 48px one please ?
<flan> Are we replacing the existing logo with this one? Or using them side-by-side?
<flan> (The existing one is heavily pro-Ubuntu, but it *is* pretty)
<flan> (This one is nice and neutral and clean)
<jenkins> I think this is the icon not a logo . iirc
<flan> Sorry. That's what I meant to imply by "side-by-side".
<jenkins> well we need to come up with a logo basically
<thorwil> jenkins: https://code.launchpad.net/~t-w-/+junk/quickshot_art
<jenkins> thanks thorwil
<jenkins> pidgin crashed
<jenkins> flan: how do i get a url to appear like the one here imagebin.org/112417
<jenkins> http://http://imagebin.org/112417
<jenkins> http://imagebin.org/112417
<flan> http://www.pygtk.org/docs/pygtk/class-gtklinkbutton.html
<flan> Glade should have it in its toolbox.
<flan> Note that the project's URL will not always be displayable.
<flan> And there may be up to three URLs.
<flan> How you present them is up to you.
<flan> (If you even want to present all of them)
<flan> Quickshot project URL (not exposed if the project isn't public), version homepage (may not be defined), project homepage (may not be defined)
<jenkins> I thought I would just but quickshot.org there?
<flan> Oh. Yes, you can do that, too.
<jenkins> thanks flan i had found that button but not the setting to make it look like a noraml window but have now
<flan> Where are you packing it? (On the welcome screen, I presume, but where?)
<jenkins> i am doing the about window :P the most un important one
<flan> As fro project/progress URLs, just give me a vbox on the screenshot-list window with two panels in it. I'll rip them out and put URLs in their place, if they're defined.
<flan> Ah.
<flan> That works.
<flan> Rip them out in code*
<flan> Part of the reason why GTK's box model is so useful.
<flan> And why I'll nag you about the importance of using it to group related content.
<jenkins> I know its not an important window but I had the urge to do it. I saw your changes and I can see why it makes sense
<flan> The about window is important.
<flan> It's just not crucial.
<jenkins> I will do the resolution ones as well just can't decide on how to improve over last time
<flan> Embed the progress bar in the page itself.
<flan> Instead of making a pop-up.
<flan> Just put a GTK progress bar in it (one of the "I dunno how long this'll take" ones.
<flan> We can show it dynamically once the process begins.
<flan> Assuming the process takes long enough to warrant the use of the bar.
<flan> I can't remember if it was fast or slow before.
<flan> In any case, it's basically just going to say "This project, <name>, requires that screenshots are captured at a resolution of XxY. Something, something. We change things now!"
<flan> Oh. I remember what the delay was.
<flan> Installing disper.
<flan> Are we making that a dependency of the .deb to avoid it?
<jenkins> it was slow last time but it will be fast as I have changed the way the graphics driver is detected. i would like to make it a dependency
<flan> Until we can look at its code and find the right stuff to run ourselves.
<jenkins> yep
<flan> If it's fast, no progress bar.
<flan> See if you can prototype that window and the user details window by the end of today. I'll try to get the UI flow advancing to the screenshot list.
<jenkins> that window is there already
<flan> I mean so that it has only the buttons and stuff that we need.
<flan> It's kinda hard to go back once that point's been passed.
<jenkins> and the screenshot list one is done and the screenshot detail one
<flan> It really just has "Okay" and "Bail".
<jenkins> I wil adjust them
<flan> Screenshot details may get some tweaking once I get there, since there are more/different/stuff options than before. I won't get to it until this weekend, though, so we can probably discuss changes and work on its pieces concurrently.
<jenkins> http://imagebin.org/112420 is what I was going to use for the user to comfirm that the change has been made correctly so it is standard gnome stuff.
<jenkins> cool sounds good
<flan> Same with the username-change. Once the user's been created, Quickshot will have to close before the user can continue. It's a window that kinda creates a dead end if it ever appears.
<flan> Looks good.
<flan> Probably just tweak the wrap-points.
<flan> But I like it.
<flan> Is Maverick going with orange to indicate active buttons?
<jenkins> yep
<flan> active/selected/default
<flan> Kinda ugly, but whatever.
 * flan isn't an art guy.
<flan> Wait... Wait...
<flan> Is that dock standard?
<jenkins> no thats awn
<flan> 'Kay.
<flan> The dock is one of the things I like least about using my Mac.
<flan> (Not because it's impractical, but because it's an inefficient use of space)
<jenkins> i auto hide it
<flan> Same.
<Muscovy> I like to switch between dock and window buttons every few months.
<flan> But then I lose the ability to see what I have open at a glance.
<Muscovy> Docks are better for when I'm working with a lot of applications, I find.
<flan> It's a very intuitive design, but it's not well-suited to my mindset.
<Muscovy> You seen Gnome 3 yet? :P
<flan> I've been avoiding it.
<Muscovy> I've been using it, after I got over my initial shock.
<flan> I mean I've been avoiding all news of it.
<flan> I want to be surprised.
<Muscovy> Ah. XD
<thorwil> flan, jenkins: playing around with logo ideas: http://www.foopics.com/showfull/456df83df6c2d6df882e2af8261ba970
<Muscovy> I won't spoil it then.
<Muscovy> Those are neat logos.
<Muscovy> I like the first and third.
<jenkins> I like the third one :)
<flan> The second one's brilliant, but I'd go with the third.
<jenkins> I can't decide on gnome 3 I am waiting untill it is nearer reles
<jenkins> *release
<jenkins> third one has got me excited
<thorwil> ok, so i will tweak the 3rd on another day
<flan> The second'd be my pick if it weren't just a tad too subtle.
<flan> But I can't see a way to un-subtle it.
<flan> Short of moving the hybrid to the right.
<thorwil> using 2 colors and no split on the S should help the 2nd
<flan> Yeah... that might work.
<flan> Except it'd be three colours, wouldn't it?
<flan> Unless the Q becomes an outline.
<daker> flan, ping
<flan> Hi.
<flan> daker, pong.
<Muscovy> What's with the pingpongs?
<daker> it's fine, just want to ask question how we can login to qs board
<daker> so i used my lp openid
<flan> I'd just need to add you as a project owner.
<flan> I'll add everyone who's interested after I reset the database.
<flan> (In preparation for 10.10)
<daker> we should ask humphreybc to design something for the qs board
<flan> Wait... Which board?
<flan> I thought you meant my staging site.
<flan> Which will probably be used for the next manual release.
<daker> yes
<flan> (I doubt I'll be ready to hand it to godbyk until after 1.0.0)
<daker> & for other projects :)
<flan> There's not really much to design... It's a backend to the client.
<flan> Again, it's not intended for public perusal.
<flan> It's just meant for administrators to approve and download screenshots.
<daker> ah oki
<flan> It's a very utilitarian concept.
<flan> The quickshot.org page will be a lot more general-user-oriented.
<daker> but it's should provide other things
<flan> My server's basically justa  glorified database with a special protocol.
<daker> project activity, how many screenshot has been taken by hour, by day for each user
<flan> ...But why? It's not a social networking system.
<flan> It's just a filesystem + database, intended to facilitate the execution of a task.
<flan> Can you identify a benefit of indicating project activity levels?
<daker> i don't know it's just an idea :)
<daker> if i understand what you said, the stagging site will be just a backend for the projects owners ?
<flan> Yep.
<flan> It'll have some degree of public visibility, but only as much as is needed for people to decide which languages need their attention.
<flan> And then only if the project is public.
<flan> For all we know, someone might set up a project to so they have a checklist of things they need to capture for a school project.
<flan> just so*
<daker> i understand
<flan> Whatever you see at http://flan.uguu.ca:5000/ump/10-04 is about as much as I can imagine a contributor ever needing to see.
<flan> The system is flexible, so we can add more later.
<flan> But, from my ancient mindset of minimalism-is-good-so-build-stuff-as-a-component-that-can-be-harnessed-by-other-stuff, this seems like the right way to do things.
<flan> An aggregator, like the quickshot.org site, can get enough information from the backend servers to calculate activity levels, general rates of completion, and user helpfulness to display it in a more engaging manner.
<flan> The quickshot.org site won't need to host any of the data itself, aside from deltas, because it's essentially all offered as a service by any known suppliers.
<flan> The backends retain their one simple purpose, the aggregators layer on top of them, and then a super-aggregator could be built on top of the aggregators.
 * flan likes layers.
<flan> Note: Suppliers of information could be resolved by indexing/scanning the .qsproj files that are submitted to the site's bulletin board. The model's design allows for easy information-scraping.
<flan> (I don't like proprietary or undiscoverable anything)
<flan> </rant?
<jenkins> flan: please let me know what else you would like me to do tomorrow night
<flan> Can do. Mostly, it's just a matter of getting the usability logic of the GUIs out of the way.
<jenkins> please make a list and I will do anything needed
<flan> Then (re)building the basic libraries behind them (which is what Wetbox^3 will help me with), and then binding everything together (which is what I'll do).
<flan> I'll just keep memo-spamming you.
<jenkins> yep sounds good spam!
<flan> Yay for spam!
<flan> G'night~
<jenkins> thnaks flan night
<daker> dutchie, ping
#ubuntu-manual 2010-09-03
<nisshh> godbyk: ping
<godbyk> nigelb: pong
<nisshh> ???
<godbyk> nisshh: err.. pong
<godbyk> nigelb: sorry. IGNORE ME!  :)
<nisshh> lol
 * godbyk damns xchat's nick-completion.
<nisshh> haha
<godbyk> Usually 'ni' is enough to get 'nisshh', but not today. :)
<nisshh> godbyk: i just noticed that the multicol command, when used, has a fixed verticle height
<nisshh> hehe
<nisshh> is there a way of changing it?
<godbyk> It's not a fixed vertical height -- it just balances the columns so they're all the same height (or as close as is possible).
<nisshh> ah
<nisshh> that is seriously annoying
<nisshh> godbyk: is there a way of making it not do that?
<godbyk> Can you show me the output you have currently and explain what you'd like to see instead?
<godbyk> There are parameters you can adjust, but it depends on what you want.
<nisshh> ah
<nisshh> ok
<nisshh> screenshot?
<godbyk> that'll work
<nisshh> ok one sec
<nisshh> godbyk: http://imagebin.org/112490
<nisshh> each column carries over to the next, which is not what i want
<nisshh> because of the "keep them the same height" rule
<godbyk> nisshh: Ah, I see what you're trying to do.
<godbyk> Okay, multicols probably isn't the best way to accomplish what you want, but I think it can be made to work.
<nisshh> right
<godbyk> first, use \begin{multicols*} instead of \begin{multicols}.
<godbyk> that'll tell it not to balance the columns.
<nisshh> ok
<godbyk> Next, use \columnbreak to start a new column.
<godbyk> See if that gives you the desired result.
<godbyk> If not, there are a couple other parameters we can toy with.
<nisshh> ok
<nisshh> godbyk: do i use \end{multicols*} as well?
<godbyk> yep
<godbyk> \begin and \end must always match.
<godbyk> Otherwise LaTeX will freak out on ya.
<nisshh> sure
<nisshh> godbyk: ok, that works pretty well, but now the code underneath the headings gets indented
<godbyk> The code underneath the headings?
<nisshh> like
<nisshh> Addition:
<nisshh> then
<nisshh>       code here
<godbyk> Ah.
<godbyk> Do have a blank line between "Addition:" and \begin{terminal}?
<nisshh> no
<godbyk> is it only the first line that is indented?
<nisshh> no
<nisshh> whole lot
<nisshh> hang on, ill get another screenie
<godbyk> 'kay.
<nisshh> godbyk: http://imagebin.org/112491
<godbyk> Okay, so the code below Addition *isn't* indented, but all th other code is.
<nisshh> yea
<godbyk> In the source code, is there any blank lines between Subtraction: and the \begin{terminal} lines?
<nisshh> no
<godbyk> interesting
<nisshh> the whole lot is there with no blank lines
<godbyk> try putting \noindent directly in front of the \begin{terminal} lines.  see what effect that has (if any).
<nisshh> in front of?
<nisshh> you mean before or after?
<godbyk> before.
<nisshh> ok
<godbyk> Like: \noindent\begin{terminal}
<nisshh> ah ok
<godbyk> did that do anything?
<nisshh> hang on
<nisshh> godbyk: my computer is slow, takes a good 30-40 seconds to compile the manual
<godbyk> np
<nisshh> the noindent command does nothing
<nisshh> godbyk: ^^^
<godbyk> okay
<godbyk> can you send me your .tex file? (Or point me to the repository?)
<godbyk> I'll take a look at it and try a few things.
<nisshh> ok, one sec ill push
<nisshh> right
<godbyk> If you're going to be using examples like this often, it might be good to have an examples environment (like \begin{examples}..)
<nisshh> godbyk: yea, that would be good
<nisshh> godbyk: https://code.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-developer-manual/ubuntu-developer-manual/trunk
<nisshh> its all in there
<nisshh> the file with the code we were just working on is, python-crash-course/python-crash-course.tex
<godbyk> nisshh: Okay. Let me take a look.
<godbyk> nisshh: How's the manual coming along otherwise?
<nisshh> godbyk: not too bad, me and Rick are in the process of shortening this chapter, other than that i have to catch up with jenkins and the other authors and see where they are at
<nisshh> godbyk: i dont think we will get a maverick release out though, if we do, it will be so so close
<godbyk> right.
<godbyk> at this point, I'm wondering if the getting started guide will be released at the same time as maverick. :-)
<godbyk> I haven't seen much activity in bzr yet.
<nisshh> yea
<nisshh> godbyk: iv fixed all the outstanding bugs for maverick
<nisshh> sometime im going to go through and update some of the sections
<nisshh> someone has to do it soon right?
<nisshh> otherwise there is no hope with bens crazy schedule
<godbyk> definitely soon, I hope.
<godbyk> I know.
<godbyk> Okay, to fix your problem, put blank lines around the \columnbreak command.
<nisshh> ok
<godbyk> So it should be like:
<godbyk> \end{terminal}
<godbyk>   
<godbyk> \columnbreak
<godbyk>   
<nisshh> yep
<godbyk> Next heading:
<godbyk> \begin{terminal}
<godbyk> ...
<nisshh> yea
<godbyk> did that work?
<nisshh> godbyk: yep, did the trick
<godbyk> cool
<nisshh> godbyk: there are craploads of examples in that chapter alone, what were you saying about having its own environment?
<godbyk> nisshh: Well, if you're having to use some commands over and over again, it's handy to bundle them together with a new command.
<nisshh> godbyk: yea
<nisshh> jenkins: hey
<jenkins> hey nisshh
<nisshh> jenkins: would you be interested in giving a session at Ubuntu App Dev Week?
<nisshh> jenkins: i just added myself and then i thought of quickshot :)
<nisshh> you could do a showcase on quickshot
<jenkins> I don't think I have time atm I am afraid, I am usually at work in the day and I am unsure I have the knowledge
<jenkins> when is it?
<nisshh> end of this month
<jenkins> hmm, thanks for the thought but I don't think i can commit at the moment
<nisshh> sessions are between 1500 and 1900 UTC
<nisshh> hmm, thats too bad
<jenkins> I will keep it in mind
<nisshh> jenkins: cool
<jenkins> it just I have a commute every day and I get very worn out with work :(
<nisshh> fair enough
<nisshh> let me know if you change your mind
<jenkins> will do
<nisshh> :)
<jenkins> quickshot is on revison 300
<nisshh> nice
<flan> nisshh, can you link to this App Dev Week thing?
<flan> I'm not sure I'm willing to participate, but it sounds interesting, from its title.
<nisshh> flan: hang on a sec
<nisshh> flan: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuAppDeveloperWeek there
<flan> How do you plan to present Pytask?
<nisshh> flan: well, Pytask is my app that i developed, so i plan to show how i found quickly and quickly-widgets and how Pytask uses all these API's and such and just how easy it was to put together
 * flan dislikes Quickly.
<nisshh> so sort of, here is my app, here is what i used, any questions?
<nisshh> that kind of thing
<flan> I kinda doubt Quickshot would work well for a crash-course-style introduction. Explaining the Pylons model would take quite a while. :(
<nisshh> flan: its still pretty new, but extremely easy to use
<flan> I mean I dislike it because I'm a control-freak.
<nisshh> ah ok
<flan> I admire what it's trying to do, in the same way that I admire Ubuntu for the role it plays in introducing people to a stable, friendly Linux-based environment.
<flan> -comma
<nisshh> yea
<flan> I'll always go back to doing things with Debian and tools I've picked myself in the end, however.
<nisshh> flan: yea, i mainly use quickly because it makes it easy to release and package stuff
<nisshh> other than that, it holds my app together, and for that its great
 * flan feels that things like Quickly and IDEs form bad habits and introduce crutches that'll ultimately hold some people back.
<nisshh> flan: i use vim, not an IDE :)
<flan> Not all people, of course. Some wouldn't get very far without such things.
<nisshh> i hate IDE's
<nisshh> true
<flan> I've found myself using gedit more and more.
<nisshh> yea
<flan> I used to use Bluefish almost exclusively.
<nisshh> gedit is great
<flan> I'm a nono person, though.
<nisshh> nano?
<flan> I'm comfortable with vi/vim, but switching between the two modes still just doesn't feel natural to me.
<flan> Yes, nano.
<nisshh> flan: once you use it for long enough and watch a pro vim user use it, you will never want to use another editor ever again
<flan> If vi had a hold-ctrl-to-temporarily-engage-command-mode, with interactive mode being the default at all other times, I'd probably use it more.
<flan> Oh, I know how powerful it can be.
<nisshh> yea
<flan> It's just not compatible with the way I think.
<nisshh> i dont like emacs or nano very much
<nisshh> exactly
<daker> godbyk, ping
<flan> nisshh, do you see any value in, perhaps, having me prepare a session related to Quickshot (or something else I've built) over polishing it for release alongside the manual?
<flan> http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash2/hs201.ash2/46435_978696008291_10004301_54742894_4873761_n.jpg
<nisshh> flan: yea, if it has anything to do with app development, or is an app like Pytask or quickshot, go for it
<flan> I meant, like, would it benefit others more than the cost to the project itself.
<nisshh> flan: although, im not going to present the session for you, you will have to do that
<flan> Aww... =P
<flan> Yeah, I know.
<nisshh> hehe
<nisshh> cost to the project itself?
<flan> I'm just not sure I can present effectively in a group setting.
<flan> Less time to document, refine, and polish it for release alongside the manual.
<nisshh> flan: your presenting to a bunch of dev noobs, they wont criticize you :)
<nisshh> flan: its a one hour session thats happening in just under 3 weeks, and it only happens once each cycle
<nisshh> its not going to cost the project mucyh time
<nisshh> shoudnt take you long to figure out the session content
<flan> I'd probably need jenkins with me... I have a tendency to be condescending, even though I don't often mean to act that way. :(
<nisshh> hehe
<nisshh> jenkins said he will be too busy
<nisshh> flan: if you prepare the session, id be happy to co-lead it with you
<nisshh> i just dont want to present it FOR you
<flan> jenkins seemed to imply he wouldn't be able to prepare for it.
<flan> I'll speak with him.
<flan> I don't mind putting together materials and a plan.
<flan> I'm just not sure I can lead a discussion if nobody's asking questions.
<nisshh> flan: bah!, youll be fine! :)
<nisshh> flan: its not a discussion, you teach them, and they ask questions if they want
<flan> That's what I'm afraid of. =P
<nisshh> why?
<flan> I'll look into tentatively taking one of the Friday slots.
<nisshh> fair enough
<flan> I work best when people are engaging me.
<nisshh> ah, ok
<nisshh> flan: whatever the case, it wont be as bad as you think :)
<flan> Who would I speak to about claiming a slot?
<flan> Or do we just edit the wiki?
<nisshh> flan: just edit the timetable on the wiki
<nisshh> flan: if you want to know more get in touch with dholbach
<jenkins> hey all
<jenkins> flan: ping
<ChrisWoollard> godbyk: Thanks for the wiki comment.
<ChrisWoollard> That doesn't matter. Anything is ok. A couple of lines would be good.
<ChrisWoollard> I have the membership meeting next week, so I am trying to collect them together.
<ChrisWoollard> It you don't have time, that is ok.
<ChrisWoollard> Doh, wrong window.
<dutchie> daker: pong
<daker> i need your help
<dutchie> for what?
<daker> django
<dutchie> ok
<daker> dutchie, i have this dict
<daker> http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-manual-website/ubuntu-manual-website/0.3/annotate/head:/languages.py
<daker> if you want to run the website
<dutchie> what do you want to do with that?
<daker> oki
<daker> so this list of languages should replace the default one
<daker> i can render it but i want to make in table of 2 or 3 columns
<daker> you see the result by running the website
<daker> $ bzr branch lp:ubuntu-manual-website umpwebsite
<daker> $ cd umpwebsite
<daker> $ ./manage runserver
<dutchie> ImportError: No module named umpwebsite.urls
<dutchie> ah, nvm
<daker> what ?
<dutchie> i branched it to ubuntu-manual-website
<daker> ah
<daker> http://i.imgur.com/KqfdT.png
<daker> dutchie, have you understand what i mean ?
<dutchie> one moment
<daker> tyt
<dutchie> surely that's not really a django problem
<dutchie> (not having looked at the source)
<daker> instead of have only one column, i want to list them in 2 column
<daker> having*
<dutchie> i have 2 columns
<daker> actual on is just a test
<daker> one*
<dutchie> i'm not sure what you mean
<daker> oki give me a moment
<dutchie> i'm going out in a bit
<daker> oki
<dutchie> can't you just use more columns?
<daker> http://i.imgur.com/S2uDB.png
<daker> i want something like it
<daker> the languages dict should rendered in 3 columns
<dutchie> can you do that in CSSS?
<dutchie> or CSS
<daker> here is the languages.py
<daker> http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-manual-website/ubuntu-manual-website/0.3/annotate/head%3A/languages.py
<daker> it's passe to the template here
<daker> passed*
<daker> http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-manual-website/ubuntu-manual-website/0.3/annotate/head%3A/website/views.py#L17
<daker> normaly the "languages" dict should be displayed like this
<daker> {% for code, lang in langues.items %}
<dutchie> yes, i've followed the cod eok
<daker> have you understand what i want to explain ?
<dutchie> yes
<daker> explain :D
<daker> so i'll be sure you understand
<dutchie> i don't think it's really something that you need to understand django for
<dutchie> going out now, sorry i couldn't really help
<daker> oki nop
#ubuntu-manual 2010-09-04
<humphreybc> dutchie: godbyk, daker, nisshh, thorwil, ChrisWoollard, flan, vish: Just emailed the list with a POWER MESSAGE to try and get shit going. Less than a week till our writing freeze. I'm going to start hacking away at the manual text tomorrow (it's late here) and see if I can get a good few days work done before uni starts taking all my time away again
<dutchie> as soon as i'm back from portugal
<dutchie> and when my head stops hurting
<humphreybc> cool
<humphreybc> when are you back?
<dutchie> monday
<humphreybc> and why is your head hurting?
<dutchie> the same reason my wallet is empty :(
<dutchie> stupid expensive cocktails
<dutchie> actually, one of the bars had a couple of ubuntu boxen
<humphreybc> lol
<daker> humphreybc, good
<daker> godbyk, ping
<humphreybc> daker: did you get test.ubuntu-manual.org working?
<daker> not yet
<humphreybc> okay
<daker> i am still wanting for godbyk
<humphreybc> could you email that quickshot site code over to me asap please too, and I can email it to Brett so he can start
<humphreybc> :)
<daker> i am doing it right now
<humphreybc> awesome :D
<nigelb> godbyk: this is what happens when new people join the channels ;)
<nigelb> your tab completion memory will be broken
<nisshh> humphreybc: yea, ill do some more now
<nisshh> glossary here i come
<nisshh> if anyone has anything they need or want added to the glossary, let me know right now!
<daker> humphreybc, sent
<bilalakhtar> humphreybc: Let's get SHIT goin', perhaps you should follow the Ubuntu CoC when you are here
<vish> bilalakhtar: hrm.. you are new , but we like laxative overuse ;-)
<nisshh> haha, i just realised humphreybc, the installation chapter can be shortened, because the new installer has less steps
<bilalakhtar> vish: yup, I haven't written a word yet :( going to begin with the command-line chanpet
<bilalakhtar> *chapter
<nisshh> bilalakhtar: you know thats getting removed
<bilalakhtar> nisshh: really?
<nisshh> so there isnt any point in working on it right now
<bilalakhtar> thanks, I will mvove to the software-packaging thing
<nisshh> bilalakhtar: its getting removed, and only the intro is getting included
<nisshh> sure
<vish> bilalakhtar: np.. but i guess its just that everyone just likes reminding humphreybc about COC ;p
<nisshh> so is the security chapter or something as well
<nisshh> vish: we do :)
<bilalakhtar> humphreybc is the co-owner of ohso so he thinks the Ubuntu CoC is nothing for him
<vish> oh so?
<vish> ;p
<nisshh> lol
<bilalakhtar> vish: http://ohso.co
<nisshh> godbyk: uh oh, big problem
<nisshh> godbyk: this is pretty urgent if you are there
<vish> bilalakhtar: oh! so?
<nisshh> vish: why is godbyk never around when he is needed most?
<nisshh> seriously! :)
<vish> nisshh: nah , he is around , just likes to make us wait! ;0
<nisshh> make is having a panic attack on my machine and godbyk is off to lunch! :)
<nisshh> hehe, probably
 * vish goes to get shit really going!  >.<
<nisshh> humphreybc: hehe
<nisshh> oops
<nisshh> humphreybc: ignore that!
<nisshh> just pushed, make sure you all pull!
<bilalakhtar> nisshh: I am pushing!
<nisshh> bilalakhtar: oh great...
<bilalakhtar> nisshh: Mine is pushed
<bilalakhtar> nisshh: yours will fail
<nisshh> bilalakhtar: you did r14?
<nisshh> or r15?
<nisshh> nvm, mine failed
<bilalakhtar> nisshh: both
<nisshh> bilalakhtar: could you push both at the same time next time, i got one but not the other
<nisshh> now my branch is shat
<nisshh> :)
<bilalakhtar> nisshh: sorry
<bilalakhtar> nisshh: you will have to merge now
<nisshh> yep done
<nisshh> pulling again
<bilalakhtar> push, then I 'll pull
<nisshh> grr, wont let me
<bilalakhtar> This *is* Ditributed Development!
<bilalakhtar> *distributed
<nisshh> ill just get a fresh branch, no worries
<nisshh> bilalakhtar: can you push all your waiting commits now please?
<bilalakhtar> nisshh: no more waiting :D
<nisshh> ok
<bilalakhtar> vish: How much shit has gone?
<Omega> Heh.
<Omega> I've never seen him talk in here.
<bilalakhtar> Omega: Whom? Me?
<Omega> No, humphreybc.
<nisshh> Omega: serious? he talks ALL THE TIME!
<Omega> Yeah, I guess it's just the timezone difference.
<nisshh> bilalakhtar: ok, im committing and pushing now
<nisshh> hold off a sec
<nisshh> must be Omega :)
 * bilalakhtar pulls
 * vish finished pushing ! ;p
<nisshh> oh shit
<Omega> 'cause I'm always here :>
<vish> !
<bilalakhtar> another conflict?
<nisshh> vish: you didnt!
<bilalakhtar> nisshh: success?
<nisshh> nope
<nisshh> looks like i got in first
<bilalakhtar> let us see
<bilalakhtar> lp is scanning the branch
<vish> nisshh: nah! , i was replying to bilalakhtar , never knew he was interested so much in body functions ;)
<nisshh> vish: geez, you scared me for a second there, thought my branch was screwed again :)
<nisshh> bilalakhtar: yea, it worked
 * bilalakhtar never saw vish  joking so much
<bilalakhtar> vish: you were always serious
<nisshh> not now apparently :)
<vish> bilalakhtar: actually,  i never am! ;)
<vish> bilalakhtar: i only see irony more.. which makes stuff more funny ;p
<bilalakhtar> nisshh: congrat
<bilalakhtar> s
<nisshh> hehe
<thorwil> flan: http://www.foopics.com/showfull/1827bc02f1d99e1d27108dd08590e84b
<flan> Hmm... With that background, the first one does look more like a camera's lens...
<flan> thorwil, I'm not sure which is better.
<thorwil> flan: i'm not exactly concerned about that association ;)
<thorwil> flan: lets see what jenkins will say, eh?
<flan> Sure.
 * flan works on getting the last tree windows rendering and participating in the UI flow.
<flan> three*
<flan> Then, tomorrow, functionality.
<jenkins> flan: ping
<Omega> pong
<Omega> |      . |
<flan> jenkins, pong.
<jenkins> hey flan what can i do?
<flan> Finish the credits and licence windows.
<flan> You should be able to do all of that within Glade.
<flan> I'll be finishing up the detail page momentarily.
<jenkins> yea I can do that anything else?
<flan> Then I'll work on the confirmation page.
<jenkins> sounds great!
<flan> Plenty, but that's where you should probably start, since I'll be touching a lot of other files very soon.
<jenkins> ok cool
<flan> We should have all of the GUIs appearing and doing stuff today.
<flan> Then have actual functionality tomorrow.
<flan> Then logging and error-handling on Monday.
<jenkins> great to see some progress :)
 * jenkins rebranches and he can't be botherd to fix merge errors
<flan> Ah. Because I deleted stuff?
<flan> There'll be a little bit more of that on Monday.
<flan> I plan to clear up all legacy cruft.
<jenkins> nah i had edited stuff but not pushed. but I am getting "there is no module about" am i missing a python module or one of yours?
<flan> I probably forgot to commit it.
<flan> Gimme five minutes.
<jenkins> no problem
<flan> YEah. I forgot to add it.
<flan> Pushing a bunch of stuff.
<flan> Done.
<flan> I'll get the compare window working now, then make sure the resolution-change window actually counts down and provides feedback.
 * jenkins pulls
<Omega> what're you guys working on
<flan> Orbital death-ray.
<jenkins> flan: is that http://paste.ubuntu.com/488458/ ok to go in the licence box?
 * jenkins thinks orbital make tooth brushes :P
<jenkins> quickshot
<jenkins> is what we are working on
<flan> Gnome Terminal -> Quickshot.
<jenkins> dam i missed one
<flan> Two, actually.
<Omega> To sheet the ray quickly!
<Omega> You missed, what'd you hit! o:
<flan> It's conventional to provide a link to the GPL in the short-form license-statement.
<flan> Instead of the FSF's address.
<flan> I think you can find a recent example if you find the official GPLv3 text on the FSF's site.
<jenkins> ok i will look
<ChrisWoollard> ping jenkins
<jenkins> ChrisWoollard: pong
<ChrisWoollard> How is your wiki coming along?
<jenkins> not well I have not done any more
<ChrisWoollard> That could be a bit late for next week.
<Omega> jenkins: |      . |
<jenkins> lol Omega
<jenkins> ChrisWoollard: yea i will have to see if i can get any done in time
<ChrisWoollard> I am quite enjoying collecting testimonials.
<ChrisWoollard> I now have 5
<jenkins> flan: when I open the credits window why does the translated by and written by tabs not show?
<jenkins> thants great Chris
<flan> Dunno. I was wondering about that, too.
<ChrisWoollard> Is having 2 Canonical people chetating ;)
<ChrisWoollard> cheating
<jenkins> lol you and your canonical people
<ChrisWoollard> I hope it helps
<flan> Look into it if yuou have time. (If you delegate it to me, I'm going to leave it until after everything else is done)
<ChrisWoollard> I hope you get yours done.
<jenkins> I will have a look flan
<Omega> ChrisWoollard: Yes ):
<jenkins> ChrisWoollard: i would liek to
<ChrisWoollard> :)
<ChrisWoollard> Where is godbyk? I haven't seen him around in ages.
<flan> Pushing update.
<jenkins> pulling
<brettalton> daker: hey Adnane, how are you?
<daker> hey
<daker> PM?
<flan> I like the idea of the recapture button on the confirmation window, jenkins.
<jenkins> that was a bug report i belive
<jenkins> I haev done a few changes but it still needs some work, i will see what i cna do tomorrow. bigth flan
<jenkins> *night
<flan> G'night.
 * flan VirtualBoxes Maverick.
<flan> Huh. aptitude seems to have been removed from Maverick.
<Muscovy> Yeah.
<Muscovy> It seems odd, I'd doubt aptitude is very big.
<Muscovy> Hmm, 2.2 MB as a deb apparently.
#ubuntu-manual 2010-09-05
 * flan kinda liked having all the apt commands grouped under one utilitiy.
<flan> -i
<humphreybc> Hi everyone
<Muscovy> Hello.
<humphreybc> time to see if I can pull a fresh branch and test our installation instructions
<humphreybc> because I have totally forgotten how to use bzr :P
<Muscovy> It took me a while to discover a few vital features.
<Muscovy> Like bzr add. :P
<humphreybc> godbyk: are you there? how can I check if I have the correct version of latex installed?
<Muscovy> I think the pkgs/install-pkgs.sh does that.
<humphreybc> in the branch?
<humphreybc> okay
<humphreybc> and we're still working in lp:ubuntu-manual?
<humphreybc> not lp:ubuntu-manual/maverick or something?
<Muscovy> Maverick branch is lp:ubuntu-manual.
<humphreybc>  great
<humphreybc> so it is :D
<humphreybc> I've got my coffee and last night's pizza ready to be re-heated for lunch
<humphreybc> some nice music playing, all ready to start working through these 172 pages of text :D
<humphreybc> hey banshee gapless playback is working all of a sudden
<humphreybc> mint!
<humphreybc> took like 10 seconds to branch
<humphreybc> everything installed except one thing which the script installed :D
<humphreybc> this is better than I remember :D
<Muscovy> Just in case you didn't know, manual doesn't compile currently.
<Muscovy> So if you try, it's probably not your edit.
<humphreybc> okay
<humphreybc> cool
<humphreybc> thanks :)
<godbyk> humphreybc: yeah, I'm here.
<humphreybc> sweet
<humphreybc> i've got the latest branch
<humphreybc> going to burn through these open bugs firstr
<godbyk> run "xelatex --version".  It should say "XeTeX 3.1415926-2.2-0.9995.2 (TeX Live 2009)".
<humphreybc> then I'll start making edits for maverick
<humphreybc> yup, all good
<Muscovy> Does Maverick have the right version of Tex, anyone know?
<godbyk> Muscovy: I'm not sure if it does or not.
<flan> I'm installing it now.
<humphreybc> THANK GOD Launchpad has fixed a heap of things so overlays come up when changing bug details instead of loading new pages!!
<godbyk> looks like the PPA glossary entry hasn't been defined.
<godbyk> Someone misspelled \marginnote.
<flan> xelatex --version looks correct, numerically.
<flan> The string devates a little, though, saying TeX Live 2009/Debian.
<humphreybc> godbyk: could you do us a favour and fix the compile errors so it will compile for me to test?
<godbyk> I'm working on it.
<humphreybc> okay
<humphreybc> i'm going to push my changes
<humphreybc> let me try and remember how :P
<godbyk> flan: I think that the Lucid packages were missing some required TeX Live packages. I don't know if they're in the Maverick packages now or not.
<humphreybc> walk me through so I don't cock it up
<godbyk> humphreybc: don't push your changes yet.
<godbyk> gimme just a sec.
<humphreybc> kay
<flan> godbyk, is there a simple command sequence I could use to test?
<Muscovy> flan: compiling lucid-e2 might be a good trial-by-fire.
<flan> Muscovy, I've never compiled the manual before, so I'm not sure where to start.
<humphreybc> guys, have a look at this bug report and the comment I added and tell me what you think
<humphreybc> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual/+bug/584537
<manualbot> Launchpad bug 584537 in ubuntu-manual "notification area is/will be obsolete" [Low,Confirmed]
<Muscovy> I think that looks good.
<Muscovy> Besides, other than intended phasing out, not much is really happening yet.
<Muscovy> flan: Have you run pkgs/install-pkgs.sh?
<Muscovy> Once you do that, and you're theoretically all set up, compiling is just make ubuntu-manual-en_US.pdf (in the main directory).
<godbyk> humphreybc: Okay, the PDF should build okay now.
<humphreybc> okay
<godbyk> humphreybc: you'll have to run bzr pull to grab the changes.
<humphreybc> let me pull
<godbyk> then you can commit and push your changes.
<flan> Muscovy, which branch do I need?
<humphreybc> what the bzr shortcut to mark bugs as fix committed?
<humphreybc> --fixes-bugs or something?
<godbyk> humphreybc: I never remember.
<humphreybc> darn
<Muscovy> flan: lp:ubuntu-manual/lucid-e2 for a compile test.
<nigelb> humphreybc: --fixes=1234
<Muscovy> Since the main branch doesn't compile right now.
<humphreybc> nigelb: how do I do multiple bugs?
<humphreybc> godbyk: main branch still not compiling
<humphreybc> unless I broke it
<nigelb> no clue :D
<nigelb> ideally, one commit should be fixing one bug (commit often?) :D
<humphreybc> godbyk: what does the \gls command do?
<flan> Bazaar's spewing host key validation errors at my Maverick box.
<godbyk> humphreybc: Creates a cross-link to the glossary entry.
<humphreybc> ah, that's why it wasn't working
<Muscovy> flan: Have you got your/an SSH key?
<humphreybc> takes a while to compile nowadays huh :P
<humphreybc> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual/+bugs :D
<flan> Muscovy, of course. The only thing I can think of is that I'd need to be a member of the manual project itself to be able to pull this branch.
<humphreybc> can we get the remaining four bugs sorted today?
<flan> (I'm associated through Quickshot)
<Muscovy> To be honest, I didn't know people needed to login at all to get branches.
<humphreybc> great
<humphreybc> who's got the link to that etherpad?
<flan> Neither did I.
<humphreybc> http://pad.ubuntu-uk.org/ump-maverick
<Muscovy> Gah, my inbox is filling with the manual's bug reports. XD
<humphreybc> :D
<humphreybc> anyone recently installed maverick?
<godbyk> I haven't installed it at all yet.
<humphreybc> you should :)
<Muscovy> I've got a partition.
<Muscovy> I use it on and off.
<Muscovy> It's temping to just use it, but beta wackiness drives me nutty.
<humphreybc> I've been using maverick since alpha (a dodgy upgrade from Lucid no less!) and it's been stable as a rock
<flan> I installed the beta in VirtualBox today.
<flan> (So I can test Quickshot functionality tomorrow)
<humphreybc> great
<humphreybc> flan: is the clock indicator default?
<flan> The what now?
<humphreybc> go to the clock in the panel
<flan> And do what?
<humphreybc> is it an indicator (ie, left click opens it up, consistent with the memenu, shutdown and shit)
<humphreybc> right click should display a menu saying "remove from panel" and other crap
<flan> Left-click brings up the calendar view, same as it's always done.
<flan> Same as I hope it always does.
<humphreybc> right click?
<humphreybc> can you "scroll" through all of the indicators (like volume, messaging, clock, memenu, session menu) ?
<humphreybc> if you open one and move across
<flan> No. The clock is different from the rest.
<flan> It still uses Karmic-style colours.
<flan> It's the same docklet as it's been for years.
<humphreybc> :(
<humphreybc> I guess they're not putting it on the desktop till Natty then
<godbyk> Shouldn't manualbot tell us when things have been committed to the repository?
<humphreybc> it should
<humphreybc> back in about an hour, getting lunch
<godbyk> k
<daker> godbyk, have you installed django on the server ?
<godbyk> daker: I think I have an old version on there.
<daker> which one ?
<godbyk> Let me look
<daker> godbyk, food time
<flan> Muscovy, the Maverick TeX Live packages seem to be unable to find things like xifthen.sty and xkeyval.sty.
<Muscovy> Someone really ought to update it. :|
<Muscovy> Actually, I'm surprised the manual doesn't have a Tex PPA or something.
<humphreybc> https://launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual/+milestone/ubuntu-manual-maverick-alpha
<humphreybc> https://launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual/+milestone/ubuntu-manual-maverick-rc
<humphreybc> https://launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual/+milestone/ubuntu-manual-maverick-final
<godbyk> Muscovy: We do have a TeX PPA.  But I think it's offline at the moment.
<Muscovy> Offline as in outdated or as in Launchpad is moody?
<godbyk> I think the latter two.
<godbyk> jenkins is the one to ask about it. He's the one who set up the PPA.
<Muscovy> Both?
<humphreybc> godbyk: I assigned a few bugs to you btw :)
<godbyk> humphreybc: Gee, thanks!  :-)
<humphreybc> when you install Maverick (which will be very soon hopefully) can you take notes on the new installer?
<humphreybc> it hasn't landed just yet though
<humphreybc> http://dylanmccall.blogspot.com/2010/09/new-installer-slideshow-for-ubuntu.html
<godbyk> Yeah, I can do that when the installer lands.
<humphreybc> lp:ubuntu-manual-website is working, right?
<godbyk> humphreybc: should be.
<humphreybc> y'know, it's not actually the end of the world if we release the manual AFTER Maverick comes out
<humphreybc> of course it's ideal to coincide with the release
<humphreybc> but manuals for OSes usually come out long after the OS is released
<humphreybc> (probably because other OSes are proprietary)
<godbyk> we may have to depending on when all the UI updates finally land.
<godbyk> (They won't stop changing things on us.)
<humphreybc> yeah
<humphreybc> so much for the UI freeze
<Muscovy> I think we should aim for as-close-as-possible.
<humphreybc> I'm struggling to actually figure out what needs to be changed text wise
<humphreybc> for bugs like this
<humphreybc> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual/+bug/630548
<manualbot> Launchpad bug 630548 in ubuntu-manual "MeMenu, sound menu and messaging menu changes" [High,Confirmed]
<godbyk> you'll have to read through that section of the manual and see if anything no longer holds true with the new menus.
<humphreybc> fixing the f-spot / shotwell thing atm
<humphreybc> godbyk: how do I do bullet points again?
<godbyk>  \begin{itemize} \item blah \item blah \end{itemize}
<humphreybc> thanks
<humphreybc> how would you explain "tint" for an image?
<humphreybc> Saturation is "how colorful the image is"
<humphreybc> tint is...?
<humphreybc> what's the command for bold?
<godbyk> humphreybc: bold for what, specifically?
<humphreybc> and for an emdash?
<godbyk> dash is \dash
<humphreybc> i'm listing the options under "Adjust" - levls, exposure, saturation, tint, temp etc etc. I want to bold the names of each thing and then have a very short description beside them
<godbyk> Use \begin{description} \item[Levels} blah blah \item[Exposure] blah blah \end{description}
<humphreybc> huh?
<humphreybc> oh ok
<humphreybc> description for tint?
<godbyk> you're on your own there.
<Muscovy> General colour scheme maybe?
<humphreybc> http://trac.yorba.org/wiki/UsingShotwell0.7
<Muscovy> I'd image that means basically adding a really page colour overlay.
<Muscovy> Like saturation but not just greyscaled?
<humphreybc> okay
<humphreybc> if someone wants to go through the shotwell stuff and have a look at the changes, i'd be grateful
<Muscovy> Just make a list or something?
<humphreybc> comment on the bug report
<Muscovy> Ah.
<humphreybc> :)
<humphreybc> or alternatively, just make changes
<Muscovy> I could help, but I don't feel like using Shotwell for an hour.
<humphreybc> neither do I, but has to be done :D
<godbyk> This project is hard work. Who's dumb idea was this anyway?!  ;-)
<humphreybc> heh
<humphreybc> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual/+bugs?search=Search&field.importance=High&field.status=New&field.status=Incomplete&field.status=Confirmed&field.status=Triaged&field.status=In+Progress&field.status=Fix+Committed
<Muscovy> It must be cool to look back at when it was just an idea.
<humphreybc> those are the most important
<humphreybc> Muscovy: you should see the original manual from open office :P
<Muscovy> I've assigned myself to Software Centre stuff, since I've already been working on that.
<humphreybc> yay
<Muscovy> I'll stick to the Software Centre for now, but I'll probably play with Shotwell tomorrow.
<humphreybc> :)
<Muscovy> It's evening here and nearing reading time.
<humphreybc> can we get manualbot telling us when people have pushed to the branch and their commit message?
<humphreybc> it would be immensely helpful
<godbyk> humphreybc: there's apparently a supybot bzr plugin.
<godbyk> humphreybc: dude, you gotta stop adding revision.tex and screenshots.log files. :)
<humphreybc> my bad :P
<Muscovy> Is someone working on the cover?
<godbyk> Muscovy: thorwil handles the covers.
<dutchie> rev 10
<manualbot> http://bazaar.launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual/revision/10 | http://bazaar.launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual -r 10
<dutchie> hmm
<jenkins> flan: in glade id you go help > about > credits they have the e-mail's click able any idea how to do that with a normal text box/lable ?
<flan> It might be a Pango markup property. I'm really not sure.
<flan> I wouldn't worry too much about that detail.
<flan> Figure it out if you have time.
<jenkins> k I will look into it
<jenkins> apart from adding the people into the credits windows is there anything elese you would liek me to do?
<flan> Once credits and licence are done?
<flan> Uh...
<jenkins> I am trying to find one or two settings for to get those pages pefect
<flan> Well, we're going to need much better logging coverage... And documentation...
<jenkins> documentaion on how to use it?
<flan> Think you can write good-sounding text that may be exposed to other developers?
<flan> No, documentation of the code itself.
<flan> We've got a lot of it.
<flan> I was planning to do that after we have 0.9.x ready.
<flan> BEcause of the crunch.
<jenkins> I don't know what alot of the code does but I can have a read and see what makes sense
<flan> If not, then environment_details contains a number of bugs.
<flan> Like commands being expressed as strings, rather than sequences.
<flan> Would you be comfortable wrapping, testing, and revising those functions?
<flan> I should have screen-captures working again very soon.
<flan> So we'll also need to test stuff.
<jenkins> have you implimented the resolution changing stuff?
<flan> No, not yet.
<flan> I'm going to work backwards.
<jenkins> k just wondering if it was failing for me :)
<flan> If you want to write some basic functions thatll change and roll back the resolution and put them inot a new package inside of lib/, that would work.
<flan> mkdir lib/resolution/
<flan> touch lib/resolution/__init__.py
<flan> Put stuff in there.
<jenkins> ok I will do some work into how to get the origianl resolution. i must be stored some where
<flan> No, it's not failing. I just wanted to make sure I had callbacks working from that window.
<flan> So it'd behave the way the user would expect.
<jenkins> yea cool
<flan> The resolution library will need to provide the current resolution and change resolutions. It shouldn't need any other externally accessible functions.
<flan> It should internally handle everything currently done by environment_details.
<flan> So move all the grapgics-card-checking stuff into that module and make it completely isolated from the rest of the code.
<flan> get_resolution() -> tuple(x, y); set_resolution(x, y) -> any number of possible exceptions, grouped under a common Error class. See the server modules for examples on how to do this.
<flan> -s
<jenkins> ok I will have a read i need to work out how to get the current resolution first
<flan> Of course.
<flan> I've got lots to do, so there's no rush.
<flan> Getting it right is more important than just getting something.
<jenkins> ok makes sense
<thorwil> jenkins: hi! http://www.foopics.com/showfull/1827bc02f1d99e1d27108dd08590e84b
<jenkins> hey thorwil i like the lower one, what would it look like with different colour text to the  large  Q
<jenkins> also what contact details/e-mail would you like to have next to your name in the credits window?
<thorwil> jenkins: i'd like a link to http://thorwil.wordpress.com/
<jenkins> cool will do :)
<thorwil> jenkins: if others appear with email address, t_w_@freenet.de is ok (known to every spammer one earth since long)
<jenkins> I am happy with the website, I will bear that in mind thanks
<thorwil> jenkins: so it's all about color tweaks for the logo now?
 * thorwil -> dinner
<jenkins> for me yes
<jenkins> i like the bottom one over the top
<jenkins> have a nice dinner thorwil
<jenkins> be back later
<thorwil> jenkins, flan: http://www.foopics.com/showfull/98ddcd8128b519d7bf110ea9c5f80c53
<jenkins> I am not sure about the use of the background color and how it would look in the program. I prefer the colours on the left
<flan> I'm okay with whatever.
<flan> I don't think we can really go too wrong.
<jenkins> I am just putting it in the app to see what it looks like
<thorwil> jenkins: not sure about what to do with the logo for in-app use, would have to see ...
<Muscovy> That's a _nice_ set of logos.
<thorwil> ty
<jenkins> http://imagebin.org/112804 apart form the over streched window i am unsure. what about swapping the bacground colour and the white?
<thorwil> btw, did ben say anything about the earthquake in christchurch?
<jenkins> erm he is ok thats all i konw
<jenkins> ok now I like the bottom right. what about making the background white and changing the text to the background color on that one?
<jenkins> white/see through
<thorwil> guess there will have to be 2, one for use on bright ground
<thorwil> the other as intended for the website
<thorwil> the idea behind the color and contrast is a camera flash
<jenkins> I see they are great! btw
<jenkins> *see,
<thorwil> glad you like them :)
<jenkins> I was looking at colour choices earlier using agave and could not come up with anything. its very hard, you have made a good choice on that.
<jenkins> I think the bottom left one and do it with white/transparent on the outside with current background where white is for one version .then as it is for the other one. would that look right ?
<flan> jenkins, are you good with visualizing 2D geometry in discrete co-ordinates?
<flan> I'm trying to redo the sub-rect logic and I'm starting to lose concentration.
<jenkins> do you mean take a screenshot of the panel only stuff?
<jenkins> I should be good with 2d cordinates
<flan> Uh... Sure.
 * jenkins is sure flan thinks he is mad :)
<flan> I mean more like "Given this cropped section of the screen, take this other rectangle and reduce the area to only the overlapping parts"
<thorwil> jenkins: i found tools like agave to be more of a distraction than a help, as colors depend on their surrounding so much
<flan> You're an engineer. I'd expect you to be better with numbers.
<jenkins> I am good with numbers, i just have to make sure i right them down correctly. what do you mean by overlapping parts?
<jenkins> thorwil: makes sense why i could not get any where with it
<Muscovy> Quickshot uses PyGTK, right?
<flan> Yes, Muscovy, it does.
<Muscovy> Are there any tutorials you'd recommend? I mean to learn it, but it looks frighteningly complicated.
<flan> It's actually quite easy.
<flan> The reference documentation is excellent.
<Muscovy> Phew.
<flan> Are you comfortable with Python in gneeral?
<flan> general*
<Muscovy> Fairly.
<Muscovy> I just know "general Python".
<jenkins> nissh recomended http://learnpygtk.org/pygtktutorial/index.html to me it does not cover everything but is usefull
<flan> Are you intimidated by the Python module index?
<jenkins> yes
<jenkins> flan: which bits overlap that what i don't get
<Muscovy> Thanks jenkins, I'll bookmark that.
<thorwil> enough for today, good night! :)
<flan> jenkins, I just wrote a summary. I'll commit it in a moment.
<jenkins> ok ty
<flan> I basically just need you to write a function that takes some base geometry and a pair of flags and returns potentially altered geometry.
<jenkins> I am trying to work out how gnome-display-properties works out the current screenset up
<flan> (A tuple of four numbers)
<jenkins> ok cool I will take a look
<flan> There's a much easier way than that.
<jenkins> I have gained memories of wnckd or something
<flan> wnck can do it easily, yes.
<flan> >>> import gtk
<flan> >>> gtk.gdk.screen_get_default().get_width()
<flan> 2880
<flan> >>> gtk.gdk.screen_get_default().get_height()
<flan> 900
<jenkins> how would you tell if there are two screens?
<flan> Do you need to?
<jenkins> well people can have some strange setups
<flan> Fair enough.
<jenkins> we can use your way for now but it would be good to do it properly
<jenkins> I will have a play with dgkscreen
<flan> I've just got my monitors merged into a single massive screen managed by X viewports.
<flan> I think that's pretty common.
<flan> Resizing it would look terrible, of course.
<jenkins> its how nvidia twin view is handled. last release i cloned the display on the outputs for dual screens
 * jenkins starts using gnome shell to see how he gets on
<flan> Math issue worked out.
<jenkins> coolio
<jenkins> night all
<flan> Hi, brettalton.
<brettalton> heyya
<flan> It's so rare that people will apply and actually drop by.
<Muscovy> Apply for what?
<flan> The Quickshot team.
<brettalton> well I wanted to get workin :)
<flan> Are you familiar with PyGTK or should I try to force some library tasks on you?
<flan> Though I've actually finished all the major PyGTK reworking...
<flan> And I'm going to be connecting pieces pretty quickly, so trying to work in the GUI right now might be an exercise in futility.
<brettalton> flan: you talking to me? I'm just the (new) website guy :(
<flan> Oh.
<brettalton> in time I would like to learn PyGTK though
<flan> Well, then, in that case, you'll probably want to speak to daker.
 * flan approves application.
<Glorfindel> lol
<brettalton> Ya, I've got what I need, I just want to download the website branch so I can submit some changes here
<brettalton> flan: excellent, thank you
<flan> I dunno if we're still using that branch...
<flan> I'm not sure what's going on witht he website.
<flan> I've been too busy trying to get the application itself ready for the 10th.
<brettalton> flan: don't worry, I've been talking with humphreybc and he got me on path
<flan> I'll leave it to you, then. Not that I had any intention of building the site myself or anything.
 * flan is not a designer.
<brettalton> hey, we all have our skills. If it wasn't for you, what would the quickshot 1.0 release be?
<flan> 0.0.8 with, like, more numbers.
<flan> Which would be *awesome*.
<brettalton> daker: you there?
<daker> hey brettalton
<brettalton> hey daker
<daker> yep
<daker> brettalton, need help ?
#ubuntu-manual 2011-09-03
<benonsoftware> godbyk: Are you up? :)
#ubuntu-manual 2012-08-27
<CarstenG> Ni Nora, welcome back :-)
<nautu> hi
#ubuntu-manual 2012-08-28
<CarstenG> Hi together
<CarstenG> Hi Nora
<nautu> hi
<nautu> how are u?
<CarstenG> Thanks, fine. :-)
<CarstenG> Still preparing some dinner :-)
<nautu> its night there
<nautu> lunch time here
<CarstenG> Where do you live?
<nautu> Argentina
<nautu> can you cook and chat at the same time? ;)
<nautu> i dont think so
<CarstenG> No, I donât cook :-)
<CarstenG> Only cold dishes today
<nautu> nooo
<nautu> today, what are you having?
<nautu> im curious
<CarstenG> Well, some slices bread with cheese and sausage, some vegetables...
<nautu> it sounds tasty
<nautu> are u from germany?
<CarstenG> Yes it is :-)
<CarstenG> Yes
<nautu> is there anything you need from argentina or me?
<nautu> ;)
<nautu> or ure curious about what a teacher is doing here
<CarstenG> Mmmh, I have to think about it
<nautu> wine
<nautu> footballers
<nautu> ;9
<CarstenG> Are you visiting Germany in the near future?
<nautu> u  must be kidding me
<nautu> im a teacher i would love to travel
<CarstenG> :-)
<nautu> but havent you heard?
<nautu> in argentina its impossible to save money in a different currency
<CarstenG> What?
<nautu> as inflation goes it is impossible to travel
<CarstenG> Oh, sorry
<nautu> honestly, i would love to visit italy
<nautu> i dont know germany
<CarstenG> I didn't know that.
<nautu> i guess if im in europe, i can go up
<nautu> a bit further
<nautu> can you speak spanish?
<CarstenG> No
<CarstenG> Only english
<nautu> and german
<CarstenG> And a little russian
<CarstenG> yes of cource :-)
<nautu> i cant speak german
<nautu> thats fair
<CarstenG> And my local dialect :-)
<nautu> where are you from in germany?
<CarstenG> I was born in Saxony, in the eastern part
<CarstenG> But live now since 5 years near DÃ¼sseldorf, in the west
<nautu> it sounds like the name of a beer
<nautu> i like taht
<nautu> that
<nautu> where I live theres a German community
<nautu> a school
<nautu> I mean in my town
<nautu> in the rest of argentina there are huge cities full of german immigrants
<CarstenG> Nice, than you can taste the german beer there. :-)
<nautu> i cant spell the name of the good
<nautu> food
<nautu> this is supposed to be a place to talk about serious stuff, is it? im new here
<nautu> i dont want to break any rule
<nautu> s
<CarstenG> I think itâs ok. Only remember that this channel will be logged.
<CarstenG> And everybody can read what we are speaking about :-)
<nautu> I know that
<nautu> what do you mean by this channel?
<CarstenG> I mean this chat room, #ubuntu-manual, see here: http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2012/08/26/%23ubuntu-manual.html
<CarstenG> good night
#ubuntu-manual 2012-08-30
<CarstenG> Hi together.
<nautu> hi
#ubuntu-manual 2012-08-31
<andrejz> Hi!
<andrejz> when trying to compile a pdf for precise-e2 i get the following error
<andrejz> ! LaTeX Error: Missing \begin{document}.  See the LaTeX manual or LaTeX Companion for explanation. Type  H <return>  for immediate help.  ...                                                                                                  l.1591 \DeclareTextCommand[\textBeam}{P                                        U}{\9043\223}%* U+2393 ?
<andrejz> this also happens in english version
#ubuntu-manual 2012-09-01
<natarajan> Hi anybody there now
#ubuntu-manual 2017-09-03
<srikanth-kumar> hello
