#ubuntu-accessibility 2011-02-14
<hajour> Pendulum,  i am still busy with the school for ubuntu.i heard today if i succeed it will not be 1 primary school but 18
<Pendulum> hajour: that's great
<hajour> i go work further on it because its evening here
<charlie-tca> wow!
<hajour> yes i was surprised to when i heard it
<hajour> but it need to support electronic school board  so i will dive in it 
<hajour> just wanted to let you all know
<charlie-tca> Thanks! keep trying... you can do it
<hajour> and there must be a good speech program in there are many children on that school with health issues
<charlie-tca> We get that everywhere. Orca is good, if the equipment lets it work
<hajour> from what i heard is that we need to make speechcontrol working for that
<hajour> the bug from orca is still not solved
<hajour> so i will do my best
<charlie-tca> orca works for many people
<hajour> there are bugs in
<charlie-tca> yes, will there be no bugs in speechcontrol?
<hajour> it need to be eworking for all people
<hajour> it first need to be good for it can used not earlier
<hajour> people test it charlie-tca 
<charlie-tca> okay
<hajour> again and again and again
<hajour> there is no use to put a nor working program in what is full of bugs
<charlie-tca> That's what it takes, but they do not have every computer and card combination. It is hard to make an application work on everything.
<hajour> nor=not
<charlie-tca> Orca has worked for thousands of people, it is broken for a few. That seems pretty good
<hajour> thats why it is necessary to test it by all different people charlie-tca 
<charlie-tca> I know, that's why I am one of many testers. How do we get more to test for Ubuntu?
<hajour> Jacky will inform when the real testing will begin
<UndiFineD> ofcourse SpeechControl will have its fair share of bugs, we build upon existing applications, but the difference is that the major faults are already trickled :)
<hajour> we hope people here also will help testing
<charlie-tca> Again, why can't we have more people testing in Ubuntu?
<hajour> ask in the channels works good
<hajour> there are people who do not read forums often
<charlie-tca> This is the accessibility channel. This should be the channel to have people test accessibility in Ubuntu
<hajour> but are willing to help if you ask them
<hajour> in netherlands ubuntu-mwanzo are  people who want to test charlie-tca 
<hajour> leoquant told me
<hajour> i will ask charlie-tca  and leoquant to
<hajour> then we will send them to here if they want to test charlie-tca 
<AlanBell> what orca bug hajour?
<hajour> UndiFineD, have send it to jmarsden he is looking over it AlanBell 
<AlanBell> hajour: you are subscribed to no bugs
<AlanBell> UndiFineD is subscribed to one orca bug 718157
<hajour> no it is give trough by UndiFineD 
<ubot2> Launchpad bug 718157 in gnome-orca "Traceback on cli orca" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/718157
<UndiFineD> AlanBell: no it is another one I need to file to LP
<AlanBell> which is unconfirmed and has almost no information on it about what happened
<UndiFineD> I did it straight t gnome before
<erkan^> i have problem with orca
<erkan^> :/
<erkan^> but good
<erkan^> orca for vergrootglasprogramma [zoom program] is not easy
<erkan^> but i don't want "speech control" in system, because i am deaf ... how must I do him OFF ? 
#ubuntu-accessibility 2011-02-15
<TheMuso> Pendulum: Who do I send my blog post to? I've made a first draft, and intend to review it later today and will send it to whoever can put it up.
<Pendulum> TheMuso: you can send it to me or AlanBell :)
<TheMuso> Pendulum: Sweet thanks.
<Pendulum> charlie-tca: are you around for me to pick your brain for a sec?
<charlie-tca> um, yeah
<Pendulum> it's nice to see that accessibility was mentioned in jono's Linux Format article about Unity
<Pendulum> (just saw it in Barnes & Noble, but did not buy)
<erkan^> have someone tried with tactile view under Wine too ?
<erkan^> by me doesn't work good )-:
<jake_> hey, i cant seem to boot into terminal/recovery mode :(
<erkan^> ? jake
<charlie-tca> went away
<erkan^> yes is ee
<erkan^> :/
<charlie-tca> erkan^: I did not respond to you because I do not have Wine
<erkan^> ok
<erkan^> )-:
<erkan^> i see that here is not like Wine
<erkan^> :/
<erkan^> have you not Linuxdistribution, charlie-tca ?
<charlie-tca> I use Ubuntu and Xubuntu, but I have no windows. Without windows, wine doesn't do anything
<AlanBell> it does
<AlanBell> it runs windows apps
<charlie-tca> and where do I get those apps?
<AlanBell> you don't need a windows install to run wine (it *can* use some windows dlls but usually doesn't need to)
<AlanBell> download a setup.exe or something from a random website, this is the windows way
<erkan^> but
<erkan^> can you try --> sudo apt-get install wine charlie-tca  ?
<erkan^> :/
<charlie-tca> not at the moment, I have three installs running for testing right now. I will when one of those gets done.
<charlie-tca> What do you want me to test when I do that?
<erkan^> or works the tactiele view good with you, charlie-tca 
<erkan^> http://www.tactileview.com
<charlie-tca> I am not familiar with that
<charlie-tca> what version of Ubuntu do you have?
<erkan^> 10.10
<erkan^> Ubuntu
<charlie-tca> Okay, it will a few minutes
<erkan^> ok
<erkan^> and charlie-tca  ?
<erkan^> :s
<charlie-tca> will be starting the 10.10 install in a minute or two
<erkan^> ow oki
<charlie-tca> hm, wine never changed from 10.04 to 10.10. Maybe I can try this in 10.04.2
<erkan^> pfffffffff
<erkan^> ok than, i must wait till 100 years that you are clear hi hi, charlie-tca 
<charlie-tca> I am sorry. I can try this for you, but I am not sitting just waiting for someone to say "do this". I already explained I am testing cd's today
<charlie-tca> If you are in a hurry, you should have someone else try and test this, maybe.
<erkan^> no problem (-:
<charlie-tca> erkan^: I got the file, and I installed wine. Now how do I install this TactileView?
<erkan^> euh
<charlie-tca> heh
<erkan^> when you click a pictogram for tactileview, first choose you with right mouse -- > Propites, than see you tabblads --> Rights
<charlie-tca> okay, it is installing
<erkan^> Check:
<erkan^> Performing file permit
<erkan^> ow ok
<charlie-tca> I am getting a lot of errors on this
<charlie-tca> Can't run it 
<erkan^> ow
<erkan^> )-:
<charlie-tca> I don't know enough about wine to tell if this has to have windows, or is something I am doing wrong.
<erkan^> huh?
<charlie-tca> unhandled exception error
<erkan^> i have problem too
<erkan^> https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/_-g7SHML2oAI/TVr319zL3BI/AAAAAAAAA0k/wfmXpRznPeE/programma%20fout.png
<charlie-tca> it won't run
<charlie-tca> yup
<charlie-tca> that is the one. It appears to be a direct problem with wine and the TactileView program. 
<charlie-tca> I think that is one of those programs that needs more of windows, but I don't know for sure. file a bug in launchpad for it, I guess and include the screen shot
<erkan^> ow
<charlie-tca> It is an unhandled page fault on read access
<erkan^> i have tried to install too: http://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2010/12/wine-1-3-9-brings-beginnings-of-activex-support/ but is same problem
<charlie-tca> then it is a problem in wine itself
<charlie-tca> you should be able to report a bug using     
<erkan^> yes that can
<erkan^> )-:
<charlie-tca> ubuntu-bug wine
<erkan^> good idea
<erkan^> I go do
<charlie-tca> erkan^: thank you for reporting the problem
#ubuntu-accessibility 2011-02-16
<erkan^> charlie-tca, : https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/wine/+bug/719705
<ubot2> Ubuntu bug 719705 in wine "Error: TactileView can not open" [Undecided,New]
<charlie-tca> thanks, I will add a comment that I reproduced it
<erkan^> ok
<erkan^> (-:
<erkan^> My English is not good, I hope that I have wroten good explain what about problem I have with Wine, charlie-tca 
<charlie-tca> It will be fine. I work with a lot of reports that are not in good english
<erkan^> Cool (-:
 * charlie-tca does about 300 bug reports a month
<erkan^> Last week age I am beginning with bug reports , UndiFineD had explained me how can I write with a bugs (-: charlie-tca 
<charlie-tca> You are going to do fine
<UndiFineD> erkan^ :)
<UndiFineD> your giving me too much credit
<charlie-tca> I have to take a break now
<erkan^> what about credit ?
<TheMuso> Pendulum: Did you get my email?
<Pendulum> TheMuso: yeah. I only saw some proofreading type changes. Otherwise it looked good. 
<Pendulum> DO you want me to publish it?
<TheMuso> Pendulum: Yes, thats why I sent to you.
<TheMuso> sent it to you.
<Pendulum> great :)
<TheMuso> feel free to make sed changes.
<TheMuso> I have my hands full with actually labeling the indicators atm. :)
<Pendulum> heh
<Pendulum> have fun with that :P
<TheMuso> Good news though, all the system indicators are labeled, and have branches ready to go.
<TheMuso> Now starting to tackle application indicators...
<TheMuso> Like network-manager.
<maco2> TheMuso: is this something i could help with?
<maco2> TheMuso: it doesnt sound like something requiring in-depth knowledge of the codebase...
<TheMuso> maco2: You could indeed, however it requires my changes to libappindicator to be merged, which they are not yet.
 * TheMuso is going to do his best to cover everything in main.
<TheMuso> But if you would like to have a look anyway, you can pull lp:~themuso/libappindicator/a11y-desc to see the API additions I have made.
<TheMuso> Python and mono bindings also have these additions.
<maco2> ok. i'll try to get my vm-capable laptop online this weekend and get a natty vm going
<TheMuso> I thinhk such work could be considered as a bug fix, and new functionality, but not sure how the release team would judge that, I might run that by them.
<TheMuso> and not new functionality.
<leoquant> erkan^, je bent ook van harte in mwanzo hoor...:)
<erkan^> leoquant, over drie weken tog?
<leoquant> de lessen ja
<leoquant> maar je/u mag gerust mwanzo op irc joinen
<leoquant> als je dat wil he....
<leoquant> je bent immers teamlid nu
<AlanBell> leoquant: can you keep it in english here please as some people may be following with a screen reader
<erkan^> nu ben ik daar (-:
<leoquant> indeed and sorry AlanBell  and others
<erkan^> you are right, AlanBell (-:
<erkan^> I have seen a email that the meeting begin at 21.00 o'clock? Is 21.00 o'clock European or American time ?
<AlanBell> UTC
<AlanBell> 21:00 is in 2 1/2 hours from now
<AlanBell> @now
<meetingology> AlanBell: Error: "now" is not a valid command.
<AlanBell> ah, ubottu can respond to @now and tell the time in UTC
<leoquant> @schedule
<meetingology> leoquant: Error: "schedule" is not a valid command.
<erkan^> @time
<meetingology> erkan^: Error: "time" is not a valid command.
<erkan^> @tijd
<meetingology> erkan^: Error: "tijd" is not a valid command.
<erkan^> @utc
<meetingology> erkan^: Error: "utc" is not a valid command.
<erkan^> @UT
<meetingology> erkan^: Error: "UT" is not a valid command.
<erkan^> @UTC
<meetingology> erkan^: Error: "UTC" is not a valid command.
<erkan^> sorry for floods S
<JackyAlcine> o.O lol
<AlanBell> heh, only ubottu does that, meetingology just responds to anything with @
<Pendulum> meeting in 10 minutes :)
<erkan^> ohh, i go make a coffee (-: 
<JackyAlcine> Really?
<JackyAlcine> Now in 5. where's the agenda? o.O
<AlanBell> in the /topic
<AlanBell> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Accessibility/Team/MeetingAgenda
<Pendulum> yeah, even though the meeting has the wrong date in the /topic
<Pendulum> (but it's right everywhere else)
<hajour> hai all
<maco2> is this the jonoful meeting?
<maco2> or a regular one?
 * charlie-tca made it, apparently
<Pendulum> regular
<Pendulum> haven't set up the jono one yet
<Pendulum> I'm poking him about it on our call tomorrow
<hajour> i hope i will stay here now.i was not able to come on chat in morning.its evening here now
<Pendulum> right it's time
<Pendulum> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Wed Feb 16 21:00:44 2011 UTC.  The chair is Pendulum. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/AlanBell.
<meetingology> Useful Commands: #topic #action #link #idea #voters #vote #chair #action #agreed #help #info #endmeeting.
<Pendulum> agenda is at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Accessibility/Team/MeetingAgenda
<Pendulum> #topic Testing for Natty
<meetingology> TOPIC: Testing for Natty
<Pendulum> charlie-tca: can you give us an update on testing for Natty and links to where people can get information on how to test, etc?
<UndiFineD> o/
<charlie-tca> sure
<charlie-tca> We have Natty Alpha3 coming in two weeks and need people to be testing the images
<leoquant> 'lo
<charlie-tca> If you have a virtual machine or a spare partition, you can download the images from http://cdimages.ubuntu.com/daily-live/current/ and test them
<JackyAlcine> Aside from usual bugs and discrepancies, what are we looking for?
<charlie-tca> I will be posting the test case this weekend for a screen-reader installation, and will let everyone know where it is.
<charlie-tca> any bugs 
<leoquant> i have tested xubuntu en ubuntu(gnome) via vm ware: was never able to send "crash" faillure reports
<charlie-tca> We want to know that it will install, that you can use what is already there, and that you do not have to jump through loops to make it work
<leoquant> it errors
<charlie-tca> That too is a bug
<leoquant> indeed
<charlie-tca> You can report those issues directly to launchpad using       ubuntu-bug ubiquity     in a terminal
<MrChrisDruif> Hai everyone
<leoquant> thx charlie-tca 
<erkan^> hi MrChrisDruif (-:
<charlie-tca> The shortcut keys are listed at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Unity/KeyboardShortcuts
<hajour> hai MrChrisDruif :)
<charlie-tca> Please update this as you discover more 
<charlie-tca> Okay, any other questions?
<MrChrisDruif> charlie-tca: Don't the devs give us the shortcut keys?
<Pendulum> MrChrisDruif: we wish :-/
<charlie-tca> We do not want every person to have to go and ask someone what they are
<MrChrisDruif> That is working ass backwards <_<"
<charlie-tca> The ones in the wiki are what we have been given so far
<Pendulum> MrChrisDruif: I think most of the list we've gotten from jcastro who has gotten them from the developers.
<JackyAlcine> That's a bit odd.
<hajour> cant we ask then for to give the shortcut keys? 
<AlanBell> the answer is yes, the devs do give us shortcut keys, and we add them to the list
<charlie-tca> It is a brand new interface, not all the shorcuts have even been defined
<AlanBell> they are not all written yet
<hajour> a ok 
<Pendulum> so someone here may notice them before we get the next list
<Pendulum> also, I'll be posting a blog post by TheMuso today which I think has a little more info about shortcut keys in terms of the indicator panel :)
<charlie-tca> We have already one that was on the list, since it was taken out
<charlie-tca> s/one/removed one
<TheMuso> I know F10 to get to the panel is coming.
<MrChrisDruif> TheMuso: Check the list, it's on there
<TheMuso> I know.
<charlie-tca> That's all from me
<Pendulum> Anyone else have any questions about testing?
<MrChrisDruif> Pendulum: None so far
<UndiFineD> charlie-tca: could you notice the testing channel when the isos are up ?
<charlie-tca> as in #ubuntu-testing?
<UndiFineD> yes
<charlie-tca> yes, they are usually announced there, but only during the actual ISO testing.
<charlie-tca> It would be good to start testing these every day or two, if we can
<UndiFineD> I actually meant a /notice :)
 * leoquant is doing something wrong via regular updates?
<charlie-tca> the ISO's are created daily, with big changed to Unity on Thursday or so
<charlie-tca> leoquant: no
<leoquant> do we test iso's?
<charlie-tca> yes, before each release
<leoquant> okthat was/is new for me
<charlie-tca> For example, before alpha2, I tested 32 images between tuesday and wednesday
<MrChrisDruif> Yeah, you'd want a working iso, right?
<AlanBell> I understand the italian loco team are particularly hot on iso testing
<charlie-tca> this week I have tested 48 or so for Lucid 10.04.2 which comes out tomorrow
<charlie-tca> however, we only catch a few bugs during those testing days
<charlie-tca> We will find the majority of the issues by testing every day or two, or by using natty
<leoquant> we could do some iso testing via our LoCo to...i will remember that
<UndiFineD> charlie-tca: do you consider alpha 3 stable enough for daily use ?
<MrChrisDruif> leoquant: You could even make them mad enough to join the ugj ;)
<charlie-tca> Not on your production machine, no
<charlie-tca> The hardware video drivers are not working with Xserver 1.10, so most will not have 3d yet
<charlie-tca> If you need your computer to work with, natty is unstable
<MrChrisDruif> charlie-tca: for a separate partition as well?
<charlie-tca> It is fine to run in a separate partition, with backups of important data
<leoquant> MrChrisDruif, thats great
<charlie-tca> There will be days when it will be completely unusable, though
<leoquant> X updates are mostly killing
<charlie-tca> I run natty on my computer, with complete backups of everything, so I can get to an email or a document in lucid if I need it.
<leoquant> (imo) X is key, and major updates stop after the beta release
<charlie-tca> agreed, normally at the beta release, it becomes pretty stable for everyone
<MrChrisDruif> charlie-tca: in lucid, alright :)
<charlie-tca> but if we can tell the developers, screen-reader install worked yesterday, and today it will not even start, we have a good chance they can find what broke quickly
<MrChrisDruif> Indeed
<charlie-tca> If we tell them it worked last month, it is going to take a lot longer to get it fixed
<MrChrisDruif> everyone: no further questions?
<JackyAlcine> None from me.
<Pendulum> okay, great
<Pendulum> thanks CHarlie :)
<charlie-tca> You are welcome
<charlie-tca> interest is great!
<Pendulum> #topic Blog Volunteers for the next month
<meetingology> TOPIC: Blog Volunteers for the next month
<Pendulum> so we had a semi-successful first month of blogging :)
 * charlie-tca hides now
<Pendulum> and now I'd like to schedule in people to blog for each week (starting next week) until our next meeting (which will be the 16th of next month)
<Pendulum> so do I have 4 volunteers (with or without topics)?
<hajour> if you think it will helpfull i will write a blog if i get some help with writing Pendulum 
<Pendulum> hajour: if you'd like, I'm happy to help. Do you have a topic in mind?
<UndiFineD> typing ... :)
<hajour> maybe about speechcontrol hoe it begon and why speechcontrol started 
<hajour> hoe=how
<Pendulum> sounds good
<hajour> i don't think it will usefull to put a poem in :P XD
<Pendulum> hajour: do you want to write it for next week or would you like a little more time?
<hajour> a little more time if it is possible
<Pendulum> hajour: how about the week of March 9 (3 weeks from now)?
<hajour> yes that's fine for me.but if you need earlier i will do it
<Pendulum> hajour: nope, that's fine
<hajour> ok :)
<Pendulum> #action hajour to blog about speechcontrol for week of March 9, 2011
<meetingology> ACTION: hajour to blog about speechcontrol for week of March 9, 2011
<Pendulum> other blogging volunteers?
<JackyAlcine> Ah, I would like to, but to be on the Planet, I'll need to work on it intently. =/ And have time.
<hajour> there are a few new here pendule
<leoquant> it must be ontopic?
<Pendulum> leoquant: it has to be accessibility related
<hajour> maybe it has to be more clear what the blog is about Pendulum 
<Pendulum> the blog is the blog for the Ubuntu Accessibility Team
<leoquant> yeah Pendulum but its a small corner
<AlanBell> I intend to get the next persona published
<Pendulum> about the only guideline for posts is that it relate to accessibility in Ubuntu in some way
<hajour> Pendulum,  we could put a link in speechcontrol wiki from the accessibility blog s 
<Pendulum> so far we've had posts about personas, general team info, the indicator buttons, and ones in progress about why accessibility is important (and hopefully one in progress of being written about testing ;) )
<hajour> a great AlanBell 
<leoquant> but accessibility blogs becomes often so extr. personal/private almost....
 * charlie-tca peeks out at Pendulum 
<leoquant> but that is its value?
<AlanBell> this is the team blog rather than a personal blog
<Pendulum> the reason behind having a blog for the team is to increase visibility of the project within the wider community. It's syndicated on planet.ubuntu.com
<Pendulum> and based on where the trackbacks were I think has been picked up by some other public aggregators
<AlanBell> it does mean that anyone can write an article, without being an Ubuntu Member and it can be on the planet and other places
<Pendulum> (certainly we got trackbacks from a couple websites about visual impairment and computing)
<Pendulum> if we don't have any other volunteers then I'll post an e-mail to the list
<Pendulum> any other volunteers?
<Pendulum> maco2: do you want to write about gally?
<charlie-tca> I hope to get that article done, but not before next week. I need to get the test case out first. 
<Pendulum> charlie-tca: that's fine. do you want me to schedule you in for 2 weeks from now?
<hajour> how about to have some trackbacks to from websites about deaf and memory and computing Pendulum 
<Pendulum> (I can't poke you that week itself, but I can poke you about it next week)
<charlie-tca> no, put in next week or 4 weeks out
<hajour> and others
<MrChrisDruif> Pendulum: I might surprise you, but I don't want to be tied to it :)
<Pendulum> hajour: we haven't had any yet, but that's not something I have control over.
<charlie-tca> two weeks is alpha3, I will be testing again all week
<Pendulum> hajour: trackbacks are notes that another site has linked back to us
<Pendulum> charlie-tca: okay, so next week then?
<charlie-tca> okay
<maco2> Pendulum: it's inaccessible :P
<Pendulum> sounds good
<Pendulum> maco2: point taken :)
<hajour> a mail to other site s ore they want to have a trackback?
<MrChrisDruif> *make
<hajour> it can be helpful
<Pendulum> #action charlie-tca to write about testing for week of March 2
<meetingology> ACTION: charlie-tca to write about testing for week of March 2
<maco2> Pendulum: the saving grace is that you need to be sighted to use what youd learn from it anyway
<charlie-tca> That's not next week
<Pendulum> bah
<maco2> so there's the excuse for it being in a toolkit that's no good for those who aren't sighted ;-)
<Pendulum> AlanBell: is there a way to cancel an action?
<AlanBell> the minutes go in the wiki and can be edited there
<charlie-tca> Next week is good, i can put the test case link in it too
<Pendulum> #action charlie-tca to write about testing for week of February 23
<meetingology> ACTION: charlie-tca to write about testing for week of February 23
<charlie-tca> yup, that's it
<Pendulum> AlanBell or phillw, would either of you be willing to write about web accessibility for the week of March 2?
<hajour> what you mean by that maco2 ? :)
<AlanBell> well I want to prioritise the persona post
<Pendulum> AlanBell: okay. would that work for March 2?
<Pendulum> (or that week)
<AlanBell> yes
<Pendulum> great :)
<Pendulum> #action AlanBell to post another personas update week of March 2, 2011
<meetingology> ACTION: AlanBell to post another personas update week of March 2, 2011
<maco2> hajour: it's a program to teach sign language. sign language is visual, so the fact that it's written in qt and screen-readers can't handle it doesn't matter so much since if you're blind, you're probably not able to see someone signing to you
<Pendulum> okay, anyone for the week of March 16?
<hajour> a ok maco2  hehe
<TheMuso> I could write something about unity, and how it differs from traditional GNOME.
<Pendulum> TheMuso: that would be wonderful!
<TheMuso> I also plan to create an audio/video about how to get around in unity with orca.
<phillw> my apologies, I was in PM with a padawan
<Pendulum> (especially as people ask me about the Unity stuff)
<Pendulum> #action TheMuso to write about Unity in comparison with Gnome for week of March 16, 2011
<meetingology> ACTION: TheMuso to write about Unity in comparison with Gnome for week of March 16, 2011
<hajour> great TheMuso 
<Pendulum> phillw: that's okay, we ended up with enough blogging volunteers :)
<TheMuso> And yeah as I said, I plan to do a multimedia presentation about unity and orca.
<Pendulum> TheMuso: guess I know what you can blog about in April, then? ;)
<TheMuso> You could say that. :) it would be an introduction to my presentation.
<Pendulum> okay, moving on since we have volunteers for the next month
<Pendulum> #topic Looking for someone to do accessibility interviews
<meetingology> TOPIC: Looking for someone to do accessibility interviews
<Pendulum> I posted to the list about this and got a lot of responses by people willing to be interviewed, but not so much by people willing to interview
<AlanBell> dutchie would be good at that
<JackyAlcine> How about SilverFox?
<JackyAlcine> >_< She's UBT, sorry.
<JackyAlcine> *He
<Pendulum> essentially, I had a conversation with jono about how it'd be a great thing to have an interview a month or so on the accessibility blog with a member of the accessibility team
<AlanBell> silverfox doesn't do pronouns, and is busy with the other interview series
<Pendulum> I think it's a great idea, however, haven't spent 6 months doing Ubuntu Women interviews, I know it's not my forte
<Pendulum> so I'm looking for someone willing to do them
<Pendulum> s/haven't/having
<Pendulum> any volunteers?
<Pendulum> (if not, I'll talk to dutchie and see if he's interested as I don't think he's here right now)
<hajour> if it was spoken. but writhing :S
<Pendulum> okay, I'll poke dutch
<Pendulum> *dutchie
<AlanBell> there are a few people that could be volunteered for that, MarkDude IdleOne  Cheri703  spring to mind
<Pendulum> hehe
<hajour> Cheri703, would be good at that btw
<Pendulum> well since none of them seem to be actually here, I'll talk to people later :)
<hajour> she is very good with talking to people
<leoquant> ==bedtime bye
<Pendulum> by the way, we're now at an hour. Do people want to continue the rest of the meeting or postpone items to next month?
 * AlanBell would like to continue
<JackyAlcine> I want to hear about UFA.
 * UndiFineD has time
<TheMuso> Me too.
<hajour> contineu would be fine by me
<Pendulum> okay, then, we can continue :)
<Pendulum> #topic Ubuntu for All
<meetingology> TOPIC: Ubuntu for All
<Pendulum> AlanBell: that's you :P
<AlanBell> okies
<AlanBell> #link https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuForAll
 * Cheri703 would be good at what?
<AlanBell> so Ubuntu For All is an idea that has been kicked about a few times over the last couple of years
<AlanBell> hi Cheri703 
<Pendulum> Cheri703: I'll talk to you after the meeting :)
<Cheri703> hi
<Cheri703> ok, sorry
<Pendulum> no worries :)
<AlanBell> the idea is to form a group that kind of makes sure Ubuntu works for everyone, simply enough
<AlanBell> there are a bunch of projects in Ubuntu that do that in particular directions, this kind of brings them together
<AlanBell> it isn't a council (we have plenty of them already)
<MrChrisDruif> +!
<MrChrisDruif> +1
<AlanBell> I see it as more of a support team
<JackyAlcine> Like a hub of some sort?
<AlanBell> I can see it doing things like checking meetings that are scheduled actually happen, checking and helping with team reports/minutes etc
<MrChrisDruif> How do you mean that AlanBell? One team pulls it more towards accessibility, other team pulls it...where?
<AlanBell> MrChrisDruif: not pulling so much
<AlanBell> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuForAll/ProjectList
<AlanBell> that is the somewhat tentative project list
<AlanBell> they are all projects that were there from the start, or where I have spoken to the team leaders to check they are interested in being involved
<AlanBell> I don't see it as being a high activity group, just checking to make sure that all the teams involved keep going and have the resources they need
<AlanBell> there is a kickoff meeting which will define the scope of the team
<MrChrisDruif> Alright...
<phillw> AlanBell: I think it is wonderful idea. letting the left hand know what the right hand is doing, saves duplication.
<AlanBell> Friday 25th Feb 19:00UTC in #ubuntu-meeting
<UndiFineD> I could see our duaghters in ubuntu-younglings :)
<TheMuso> Damn can't make that meeting.
<MrChrisDruif> Same time as Unity Developers meeting
<hajour> AlanBell,  have the ubunti Younglings already a own chat channel?
<AlanBell> UndiFineD: that is exactly the idea
<AlanBell> hajour: no, not yet
<AlanBell> hajour: that is a project I would like to start, but the rules for such a channel would need careful discussion
<AlanBell> invite only etc probably
<hajour> yes i understand that AlanBell :)
<AlanBell> anyhow, all stuff we can discuss on the 25th or in #ubuntu-for-all
<JackyAlcine> Hm, wouldn't such a channel need supervision?
<hajour> it would be great 
<JackyAlcine> To keep them safe online?
<phillw> hajour: it would need to be COPPA registered for under 13 years of age.
<hajour> yes JackyAlcine 
<AlanBell> JackyAlcine: yes, that is what I mean
<JackyAlcine> Ah, just checking. :)
<phillw> hajour: I'll chat after the meeting.
<MrChrisDruif> phillw: coppa?
<Pendulum> anyway, Ubuntu Younglings isn't this group. I suspect that's all stuff that can get hashed out in that group :)
<hajour> ok phillw 
<Pendulum> (or in the U4A meeting)
<maco2> MrChrisDruif: you know how you cant ask for any identifying info from childdren under 13?
<AlanBell> yes, we are drifting, I just wanted to announce it here
<maco2> MrChrisDruif: like how all the websites ask your birthday to verify you're over 13?
<MrChrisDruif> Aha...
<Pendulum> can we move on?
<maco2> yeah sorry
<AlanBell> yes
<Pendulum> no worries :)
<Pendulum> #topic Next Persona
<meetingology> TOPIC: Next Persona
<Pendulum> AlanBell: you wanted to talk about this too?
<AlanBell> yeah
<hajour> well Pendulum  a group like that could say very well or programs are accessible is for that age 
<AlanBell> ok, next persona is Daniela
<hajour> sorry had typed allready :S
<MrChrisDruif> acceptable you mean hajour?
<Pendulum> hajour: that's okay :)
<AlanBell> text as we have it so far is here http://pad.ubuntu-uk.org/daniela
<AlanBell> and I found a picture here https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Accessibility/Personas/Daniela
 * AlanBell spent an hour on flickr looking for pictures of women in swimming costumes
<AlanBell> only realised afterwards it was a bit odd :)
<hajour> hehe
<UndiFineD> hah
<maco2> heh, just head & shoulders with a swim cap would do
<AlanBell> maco2: I wanted something more dramatic, she is totally blind remember
<hajour> why its just swimming women
<maco2> hajour: daniela is a competitive swimmer
<hajour> i know
<hajour> iu have helped with daniela persona to .by saying things to UndiFineD  maco2 
<maco2> hajour: then i dont understand your question
<hajour> also i have done swimming contest and i was blind on that time to maco2 
<AlanBell> anyhow, I would like more help with the text as we move it towards a blog post like the Faisal one
<hajour> i responsed on this maco2  heh, just head & shoulders with a swim cap would do
<AlanBell> the Faisal one is now on the wiki by the way https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Accessibility/Personas/Faisal
<hajour> i find it a great picture AlanBell 
<AlanBell> Pendulum: ok, about done with the persona for now
<Pendulum> anyone else have anything relating to Daniela?
<UndiFineD> she needs a lovely dog and speechcontrol :)
<MrChrisDruif> :D
<JackyAlcine> +1
<Pendulum> okay, moving on
<Pendulum> #topic Diversity at UDS
<meetingology> TOPIC: Diversity at UDS
<MrChrisDruif> Woohoo...I saw it change on the spot :P
<Pendulum> last week there was a meeting about Diversity at UDS in the Ubuntu Women channel aimed at increasing the number of women at UDS
<UndiFineD> I looked up the hotel, geesh, that is expensive
<phillw> it was wonderful to see accessibility brought to a 'must be' instead of an add on
<Pendulum> I've requested from jono that we have an accessibility meeting about it too because I've found a lot more people asking me accessibility related questions than asking me questions related to being female at UDS
<Pendulum> are people interested in such a meeting?
<TheMuso> Yes.
<phillw> yes
<Pendulum> UndiFineD: UDS hotels are *always* expensive. If you don't get sponsorship, the next best thing is to try to find a cheaper hotel nearby
<hajour> we cant afford any hotel Pendulum 
<Pendulum> btw, for purposes of UDS I include any sort of "regular" impairment as well as food allergies and anything else that I'm not thinking of but would fall under it
<hajour> UndiFineD,  and i
<maco2> hajour: or a local ubuntu community person on whose couch you can surf
<Pendulum> anyway, so it sounds like there's definitely interest in a meeting
<Pendulum> is this a good time of day for people?
<JackyAlcine> For me, it's perfect.
<maco2> good for me
<JackyAlcine> Like right now, right?
<Pendulum> either right now or the 21:00 UTC time
<Pendulum> (I want to be able to tell jono an approximate time of day so that we can get as many people in it as possible)
<hajour> i want to go but i don't no how
<phillw> 20:00 or 21:00 is fine by me
<hajour> its ok by me Pendulum 
<Pendulum> okay, thanks :)
<phillw> as long as we're not 2,00 miles away from the UK!
<TheMuso> Except for Fridays, every other day of the week at 20/21:00UTC is fine.
<hajour> maco2,  its far from herte the UDS
<hajour> here
<maco2> hajour: so you know, if you can't attend uds, there is also remote participation via audio streams and collaborative text-editors. that's how i'll participate 
<Pendulum> I'll be bringing this up with jono when I talk to him tomorrow
<maco2> hajour: i meant trying to get people who live near uds to let you couchsurf ;-)  people have done that before
<Pendulum> #topic Any Other Business
<meetingology> TOPIC: Any Other Business
<AlanBell> yes
<phillw> Pendulum: it's in Bhudapest?
<TheMuso> not from me
<maco2> phillw: yes
<AlanBell> there is a new theme about to come out for wiki.ubuntu.com
<phillw> i would not be attend :( too far.
<AlanBell> I got the code today
<JackyAlcine> Interesting; what's the catch/
<JackyAlcine> *?
<hajour> a ok maco2  UndiFineD  have explaind what couchsurf means
<AlanBell> http://libertus.co.uk:8083/
<AlanBell> ^^ preview of the new design
<phillw> AlanBell: you have done outstanding work, as you always do.
<AlanBell> at the moment the code isn't in a public place on launchpad as it got mixed up with some other themes
<Pendulum> hajour: maco2 can you do that after the meeting?
<UndiFineD> AlanBell: would be great if I was able to change themes
<AlanBell> phillw: I didn't contribute to this one at all
<AlanBell> I just managed to get a copy released to me
<UndiFineD> AlanBell: I get this nice message when changing themes: This email already belongs to somebody else.
<AlanBell> I can't fix bugs yet, and I am not sure there is somewhere to submit them, but there will be in a few days
<phillw> AlanBell: I'm still playing catch up with emails
<JackyAlcine> I like it, it's a bit cleaner and more gentle to the eye.
<AlanBell> UndiFineD: I can help you submit a request to get that fixed
<hajour> AlanBell,  the red is like there are all small mmm how you call that stripes are in what makes the white fonts not clear for me
<UndiFineD> I sent a request AlanBell .. not getting fixed
<UndiFineD> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu-website/+bug/685436
<ubot2> Ubuntu bug 685436 in ubuntu-website "Cannot change theme" [Undecided,Incomplete]
<hajour> from the site from your link
<hajour> AlanBell, ^
<AlanBell> hajour: what white fonts?
<hajour> the white fonts in the red parts
<AlanBell> there is Ubuntu wiki in the header, and white on black in the header menu
 * AlanBell can't see any other white text
<AlanBell> or red for that matter
<AlanBell> there is a big orange banner at the top
<UndiFineD> there are bugs in the banner
<maco2> AlanBell:  meh, red-orange ;-)
<Pendulum> okay, I need to head out soon so does anyone mind if I end the meeting and discussion can continue about this outside of the meeting?
<AlanBell> fine by me
<UndiFineD> but it is too bright for me
<phillw> pen np
<hajour> ok
<JackyAlcine> The new banner, UndiFineD?
<maco2> hajour: the text should be much much larger than those stripes...
<Pendulum> #endmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting ended Wed Feb 16 22:34:49 2011 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/AlanBell . (v 0.1.4)
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://mootbot.libertus.co.uk/ubuntu-accessibility/2011/ubuntu-accessibility.2011-02-16-21.00.moin.txt
<AlanBell> thanks Pendulum 
<JackyAlcine> o/
<phillw> thanks Pendulum
<Pendulum> can someone post the minutes, I've just been informed that I need to get ready to go out to dinner
<AlanBell> Pendulum: I will do it, have a nice dinner
<JackyAlcine> g'night Pendulum
<Pendulum> also, I guess tomorrow I'll tell whoever is around about my silly side project that's semi-related to this team (that AlanBell knows about)
<maco2> hajour: would bold text help?
<Pendulum> Cheri703: will you be around after like 8PM EST?
<MrChrisDruif> Have a nice dinner Pendulum :)
<Cheri703> as far as I'm aware
<AlanBell> ok, so white text on the orange background
<maco2> AlanBell: that preview has an ugly on my screen in the form of a grey line going right through the middle of "edit" "info" attachments" as if it were a strikeout
 * Cheri703 has been busy with clients/client computers today :)
<AlanBell> does the text say "Ubuntu wiki"?
<hajour> thank you for chair the meeting Pendulum :)
<maco2> AlanBell: i think that's the text she's referring to 
<JackyAlcine> How about screen shots from everyone?
<AlanBell> JackyAlcine: well I can use browsershots
<hajour> i mean
<JackyAlcine> It looks okayish on my screen; I like the vibrancy of the previous theme though.
<AlanBell> maco2: yes, I get that in firefox too, I have reported that one
<hajour> that the orange part where is fonts in with the name ubuntu . it looks like not a whole piece orange but very much slim orange lines 
<maco2> hajour: yes, there are very very thin lines. are they rendering very thick on your browser so they interfere with the text?
<AlanBell> there is a very faint diagonal pinstripe at the top of the orange banner
<hajour> and with  try to read my eye was going see the fonts double
<phillw> JackyAlcine: looks fine on both Chromium and FFox for me - the usual problem is for those with poor sight, the text is too small.
<UndiFineD> AlanBell: broken diagonal for me
<maco2> they show on mine as being probably done with subpixel stuff since they're not even quite a pixel wide, while the text is showing as at least 3px thick.  is the thickness more similar on yours?
<AlanBell> and actually, zooming in someone is out by one pixel in the repeating image
<hajour> and was after that not able to see anymore a couple of minutes by tears in my eye
<JackyAlcine> Why not add letters on the page for sizing?
<JackyAlcine> or a Accessibility icon that switches stylesheets?
<phillw> JackyAlcine: I've asked about stylesheets.
<AlanBell> that is a possibility, but I think they would rather fix it in a way that works for everyone
<hajour> AlanBell,  maco2 ^
<maco2> are the fonts set by px/pt settings or by %?
<maco2> they *ought* to be percent
 * JackyAlcine was a webdeveloper before ubuntu. ;)
<JackyAlcine> maco2: I can see them locked by px/pt.
<maco2> or em
<maco2> ugh 
<phillw> JackyAlcine: phillw suggested the system that phpbb use.
<AlanBell> yeah, I know about the font settings :(
<JackyAlcine> It's an etiquette; unless they globalized the font in a * {} and just percent it then.
<maco2> they should be % or em that way the user can set their default font size to 24 instead of 16 it actually does something useful 
<JackyAlcine> *there
<maco2> JackyAlcine: they dont need to. the browser has a global font size
<maco2> 16 is the usual default browser global font size
<AlanBell> yes, sadly the style guide for the web specifies fonts in pixels
<maco2> EWWWWWWWWWWW
<AlanBell> the web team follow the style guide religiously
<JackyAlcine> maco2: If the page's size is 16pt, usually all of the elements without definition would inherit that size.
<JackyAlcine> not the browser definition.
<AlanBell> so it is a negotiation with the design team and the web team to get any movement there
<JackyAlcine> like in a stylesheet or a deprecated <BASEFONT> tag.
<maco2> JackyAlcine: but thats why i am saying the css should not set *anything* by px or pt, ONLY by "percent of browser's setting"
<hajour> hajour> that the orange part where is fonts in with the name ubuntu . it looks like not a whole piece orange but very much slim orange lines hajour> and with  try to read my eye was going see the fonts double.<hajour> and was after that not able to see anymore a couple of minutes by tears in my eye
<JackyAlcine> maco2: *shrugs* laziness perhaps?
<maco2> AlanBell: whoever decided pixels instead of points has a bit of ignorance going on. havent they heard of dpi?
<maco2> but still, letting the user have their base font size be set in browser and then you scale by percent is better accessibility
<hajour> to small fonts. also
<AlanBell> yes
<UndiFineD> and by far too bright for me
<hajour> i cant read fast on the moment my eye is still not rehabitated from reading the site/trying
<phillw> AlanBell: I'm sure that something like http://www.phpbb.com/community/viewtopic.php?f=74&t=2115856&p=12927386#p12927386 is not impossible.
<AlanBell> the header consists of this white+transparent image http://libertus.co.uk:8083/moin_static193/light/images/ubuntu-wiki.png
<AlanBell> on top of this repeating tile http://libertus.co.uk:8083/moin_static193/light/images/orangeheader-tile.png
<hajour> sorry maco2  i don't know or you have said something to me
<AlanBell> phillw: actually these days I think that is less important than it used to be as ctrl+mousewheel just does variable zooming on every site
<AlanBell> when ctrl+mousewheel is broken that is very bad
<maco2> AlanBell: or ctrl+ or ctrl-
<AlanBell> same thing
<maco2> i keep accidentally zooming my screen all funny when i go to scroll the page :(
<maco2> or when i go to move the cursor and it just decides to scroll even though im nowhere near the scroll area
<AlanBell> maco2: get your big screen and you will *really* not like sites that use the 960gs framework
<maco2> usually this leaves me thinking "hey! i didnt even press ctrl!" :-/
<phillw> AlanBell: or when you are using a touch pad and do not have a scrolling mouse?
<maco2> phillw: touchpads have a scrolling area on the side
<AlanBell> side of my touchpad scrolls
<hajour> AlanBell,  if you would ingrease the size of the fonts the stripe problem will not go away
<AlanBell> hajour: it isn't a font
<AlanBell> it is an image on another image
<maco2> even  touchpads that dont have a scrolling area marked and dont scroll in windows.... frequently DO scroll in linux
<phillw> AlanBell: so does mine, but ctrl - scroll does not zoom
<hajour> its not the font i talk about but the orange part
<JackyAlcine> maco2: has to be enabled first.
<maco2> phillw: sounds like a bug
<maco2> JackyAlcine: i thought it defaulted that way
<maco2> for vertical scroll
<AlanBell> however I am more bothered about readability of the body text than stuff round the edges
<maco2> horizontal defaults off
<maco2> and two-finger scrolling defaults off
<JackyAlcine> nope, I have to set it everytime I install or run Ubuntu on this laptop of mine.
<JackyAlcine> the orange hue, hajour?
<AlanBell> I know the stuff in the footer is hard to read, but it is unimportant small print for example
<hajour> well i think boths are importanted
<maco2> funky. mine doesnt.
<AlanBell> if the body text was white on an orange background I would consider that a huge problem :)
<hajour> i still have tears in my eye and for to remember i got only 1
<AlanBell> http://libertus.co.uk:8083/moin_static193/light/css/typography.css font definitions
<hajour> JackyAlcine,  can you say to michael i talk later to him.my eye have to rehastable first i dont see the spellingcontrol line anymorte now also
<JackyAlcine> Alrighty
<hajour> say i am sorry i now he hav wight long
<hajour> JackyAlcine, ^
<AlanBell> UndiFineD: you need to send an email to rt at ubuntu.com telling them your email address and launchpad profile URL and the error message you get when changing themes on the wiki
<AlanBell> and link to the bug
<AlanBell> or, even better
<AlanBell> http://rt.ubuntu.com
<UndiFineD> ok I will
<AlanBell> log in with username ubuntu and password ubuntu and raise a new ticket there
<AlanBell> the IS team don't look at bugs or launchpad, they use RT instead, and this is an issue with your profile only so a bug won't fix it
<AlanBell> phillw: from reading http://www.coppa.org/comply.htm I think it would be exempt, or not hard at all to comply
<AlanBell> feel free to discuss further in #ubuntu-for-all
<UndiFineD> AlanBell: https://rt.ubuntu.com/Ticket/Display.html?id=16582
<AlanBell> that should do it
<AlanBell> it might take a while, but it is in the right place now
<UndiFineD> thanks
<MrChrisDruif> First of all, I've got two suggestions: put the next meeting in the topic and put it on the fridge
<MrChrisDruif> And we were still discussing the mock up of AlanBell?
<UndiFineD> MrChrisDruif: the meeting ended some while ago
<UndiFineD> this is the afterparty :P
<MrChrisDruif> I know....but hajour is complaining to me about the mock up
<hajour> well i only told what happend by looking to that site
<MrChrisDruif> Like I said... hajour has got some suggestions
<hajour> and i think that maybe my english is nnot good enough to say it clear enough
<MrChrisDruif> Want me to say it hajour?
<hajour> yes i would appreciate if you want to say it MrChrisDruif 
<MrChrisDruif> Alright, here the drop: hajour thinks that the header should be upgraded for improved accessibility
<MrChrisDruif> The orange isn't a solid color and gives her tired eyes to read
<MrChrisDruif> Because of the diagonal lines, the letters become hazy
<MrChrisDruif> I think that should cover what she feels about it...
<MrChrisDruif> Update: also the letters in the white part become blurry/unreadable if you zoom in a lot
<hajour> ok thanks MrChrisDruif :)
<MrChrisDruif> :D
<hajour> maco2, AlanBell ^
<MrChrisDruif> Bye y'all
#ubuntu-accessibility 2011-02-17
<dutchie> Pendulum/AlanBell: i am around now
<dutchie> (ish)
<Pendulum> dutchie: I will poke you tomorrow
<dutchie> that would probably be a good idea
<dutchie> seeing as it is nearly 3 am now 
<AlanBell> student ^^
<dutchie> AlanBell: :P
<dutchie> student that is up at 8 nevertheless
<nigelb> dutchie: I suspect he's in France.
<dutchie> eh?
<nigelb> aah
<nigelb> dutchie: ah, sorry.  Confused :D
<nigelb> dutchie: you slept at 3 and got up at 8? o.O
<dutchie> i think that is due to the large amount of caffeine i consumed last night
<nigelb> lol
<Pendulum> oh, I said I'd blather about this here this morning since I ran out of time at the meeting last night
<Pendulum> I've been beta testing an online cross-platform GUI mobile phone app development program
<JackyAlcine> o.O
<Pendulum> first app I decided to work on was for this team
<Pendulum> I'm not sure if i'll publish it, but I wanted to let people know!
<Pendulum> I realise it's a bit ironic to be doing an app about accessibility for a non-accessible platform using (currently) non-accessible software
<Pendulum> but it was an easy thing for me to start with in terms of information and just doing something
<JackyAlcine> hm. okay
<Pendulum> anyway, http://community.spotspecific.com/boards/3/topics/5 is a little about I'm doing with a screenshot of the index for the app
<Pendulum> if people are interested, I'll think about publishing once I have things perfect in it
<Pendulum> for the record, using this software I can publish for both iPhone and Android
<maco> Pendulum: iPhone isn't non-accessible
<Pendulum> maco: no, but it's not wonderfully non-accessible
<maco> or rather, it has some attempts at accessibility
<maco> i am told it's pretty good if you're blind, much better than Android
<maco> a kid at school was very excitedly showing me how well it worked for him
<Pendulum> err... I mean not wonderfully accessible
<Pendulum> I think TheMuso has been considering an iPhone
<Pendulum> (I just vaguely remember a conversation about it at a UDS)
<maco> i could imagine problems with multitouch for arthritis
<Pendulum> I have to admit that for me, my iPhone is fabulous
<Pendulum> and substantially more accessible for a lot of things compared to a regular phone
<Pendulum> (big buttons, etc.)
<Pendulum> but I also use a stylus part of the time (I'd really love a bulked up iPhone stylus that works)
<maco> Pendulum: like the one that's pen-size with a brush tip instead of a little super-thin stick? thinkgeek has that...
<Pendulum> I relaly need one thicker than that
<Pendulum> *really
<Pendulum> but I should try that one
<Pendulum> Anyway, notice is now there that I'm working on this app (well, was working on it, now sitting on it) and if people want, I'll look into releasing it once I've gotten a chance to clean it up :)
<Pendulum> also, Spot Specific is cool, but not accessible yet as far as I know (it's accessible if you can use a mouse, but I haven't really tested with a screen reader yet and it's all webkit, IIRC)
<Pendulum> maco: do you have any tips about taking photos of signs? (this afternoon I'm going to be doing photos for a really simple ASL app which will be my next app after the Ubuntu Classroom one I'm working on now)
 * AlanBell is doing a BSL app
<maco> Pendulum: have a helper. running around to the other side of the camera or trying to aim it on a stand is not easy
<maco> the best i can do without a helper is put a mirror behind the camera to check its aim
<Pendulum> yeah, my mother's willing to help :)
<Pendulum> any suggestions for background colour? I figure I'll be doing the signs infront of my so it's a "what colour t-shirt" question really
<Pendulum> AlanBell: I suspect yours will be fancier than mine. I'm just doing an alphabet app with photos and no video
<Pendulum> (so lots of screens, but nothing really fancy)
<maco> one that contrasts with your skin :P
<Pendulum> heh
<maco> i dont think you're pale enough for white to be a problem
<Pendulum> yeah
<Pendulum> I might use blue
<AlanBell> smile :)
<Pendulum> since that's the colour of the current shirt I'm wearing :)
<maco> but i guess one with not a lot of writing would be good
<Pendulum> yeah
<maco> AlanBell: heh. just dont smile when teaching the sign for "kill" or "murder" or "die" :P
<Pendulum> current tshirt is plain blue 
<maco> huh. should maybe have a "crimes" lesson in gally?
<maco> i just know kill & steal
<AlanBell> you don't have a #dd4814 tshirt yet then?
<AlanBell> I just know rude signs from that Cee Lo Green song
<Pendulum> AlanBell: I will never by choice have a #dd4814 shirt
<Pendulum> in fact, I might chance the a11y background colour to #d05630 just because it gives me less of a headache
<maco> AlanBell: the funny thing about the cee lo green song in ASL video everybody's all "zomg" about is that ITS NOT EVEN THE RIGHT SIGN
<Pendulum> er... a11y app
<Pendulum> maco: okay, I wondered about that because it's a different sign from the one I was taught
<maco> the sign she's doing is "so what?"
<Pendulum> I assumed it was regional variance
<Pendulum> but the video is awesome for othe reasons :)
<maco> i saw a theory that she had picked it up from a BSL video
<maco> either that, or she watches too many mafia movies (that was my theory)
<Pendulum> haha
<Pendulum> maco: actually looking at wikipedia, she got it from there: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Profanity_in_American_Sign_Language
<maco> such a page exists? O_o
<maco> Pendulum: did didnt read the third sentence
<maco> s/did/and/
<Pendulum> right
<maco> interesting.... i learned what i assume is regional variation on BS
<maco> i learned thumb & pinkie
<maco> im having trouble differentiating their explanation of "slut" from the sign for girl :-/
<AlanBell> I saw a little bit of Glee the other day (by accident, the TV was on and I walked past) and they were doing that song but with "forget you" as the line
<Pendulum> AlanBell: that's the radio edit version
<maco> if i was signing that song, id sign those two words individually
<maco> itd go better with the rhythm anyway
<AlanBell> go for it :)
<Pendulum> maco: I think it's a matter if distance. I was taught girl came from up near the ear, where slut seems to be just the chin
<maco> heh i dont know the rest of the signs, and songs are the hardest thing to interpret
<maco> Pendulum: ah ok
<maco> for a while i had menstruate and girl mixed up. oops
<charlie-tca> Wonderful, they want to make launchpad match the guidelines used for www.ubuntu.com.
<charlie-tca> let's get something else half of us can not use
<AlanBell> charlie-tca: link?
<charlie-tca> http://blog.launchpad.net/general/launchpads-ui-is-evolving
<Pendulum> charlie-tca: I have a contact person about launchpad issues so I'll start poking now if someone gives me a good explanation I can give to him
<Pendulum> (or just a list of issues for me to explain to him)
<Pendulum> interested that they mentioned accessibility in the post, though
<charlie-tca> orange banner and links, footer that is unreadable if the text size is changed by the user, 
<Pendulum> charlie-tca: can you e-mail it to me?
<Pendulum> (sorry in the middle of something else)
<charlie-tca> Yeah, you do know they changed the main website so it is more accessibile, right?
<Pendulum> yes
<Pendulum> this is why I want to know what the issues are *now* rather than what they used to be :)
<charlie-tca> I just looked at the website, I still am missing most links in the footer if I grow the text to a size I can read
<charlie-tca> To make them all visible requires a 8pt or smaller font
<maco> O_o
<maco> charlie-tca: why do they go invisible if made big?  overflow=none ?
<charlie-tca> When the page is made with big text, using Ctrl+, the links disappear, they seem to be hiding behind each other or something
<charlie-tca> If you make the page tiny, using Ctl - , you see many more than when the text is made big. Unfortunately, the entire page grows and shrinks with the text, making it pretty hard to see
<charlie-tca> It is a fixed width, fully shrinkable page
<maco> charlie-tca: on what browser?
<maco> i just zoomed in as far as firefox would let me. i have to scroll left and right to see them all, but nothing seems to be *gone*
<charlie-tca> maco: screenshot at http://imagebin.org/138439
<charlie-tca> What is under Trademark policy?
<charlie-tca> How about the line under Get Ubuntu ????
<charlie-tca> there are at least two lines of links missing
<maco> i see this http://imagebin.org/138440
<maco> and so i suspect browser rendering bug
<charlie-tca> I can reproduce it on both firefox 4.0 in natty and 3.6.13 in lucid
<charlie-tca> on two different computers
<maco> im on 3.6.13 in maverick
 * AlanBell tries in natty
<maco> it ools like on yours it's zooming *just* the text, not the page
<maco> which is rather weir
<maco> *weird
<maco> so the boxes the text is in are running out of space to hold the now-bigger text
<maco> s/ools/looks/
<AlanBell> works for me
<maco> but i have no idea why only your text zooms without the rest of the page
<AlanBell> if you go view-zoom-zoom text only then it zooms text only
<AlanBell> untick that and it zooms the page
<maco> oh. its optional?
<AlanBell> default is unticked
<maco> well the way to fix this so that making just text bigger doesnt break shit would be to make the divs sizes be set in ex's and em's
<maco> erm
<maco> i mean doesnt break stuff!
<charlie-tca> Ctrl -  shrinks it like http://imagebin.org/138441
<maco> and i have to *pout* at the fact that changing base font size in ff doesnt change the fonts in ubuntu.com....because theyre using px instead of em's grrrr
<charlie-tca> zoom text only is not checked
<charlie-tca> Looking at the two images, I conclude the page is growing and shrinking
<AlanBell> maco: thanks to 960.gs designer types have fallen in love with pixels all over again
<charlie-tca> I avoid the website as much as possible, since I can't see all of it
<charlie-tca> When they do that to launchpad, I guess my contributions are going to be much less
<AlanBell> there is a new style guide on photography and beard maintenance http://design.canonical.com/brand/10.%20Photography%20treatments.pdf
<Cheri703> heh, I'm guessing that was supposed to say brand, but I'm chuckling about a style guide on beard maintenance :D
<AlanBell> I meant beards :)
<Cheri703> :)
<AlanBell> see what I mean!
<Pendulum> UDS Diversity meeting (aimed at women) taking place right now in #ubuntu-women-project
<JackyAlcine> If this interests anyone, we're working to add speech synthesis to Chromium.
<JackyAlcine> https://www.launchpad.net/browserspeak
<JackyAlcine> A work in progress.
<TheMuso> Pendulum: YES I IN FACT GOT AN IPHONE, TRUMPS EVERYTHING ELSE SMART PHONE WISE WITH DEACENT ACCESSIBILITY AT THE MOMENT.
<maco> TheMuso: your caps lock is on
<maco> TheMuso: woah hey....does your screen reader shout when it encounters caps?
<TheMuso> Heh yeah it does, and thanks for the heads up, there is a bug with Orca's capslock stuff atm, I am on a notebook atm.
 * TheMuso should really dig through git to see if there is a fix upstream for that already, and apply it.
<maco> well i figured it's not like you can tell from looking at the screen when it's on
<AlanBell> maco: http://people.ubuntu.com/~alanbell/spotapp.png
<maco> AlanBell: nice
<maco> AlanBell: pretty please could you make some photos for BSL for gally?
<maco> i need to write in support for more langs, but i also need langs with which to test!
<AlanBell> I have a friend I can ask
<AlanBell> I don't know it at all so I would be copying the diagrams, no idea if I was doing it wrong
<maco> ok
#ubuntu-accessibility 2011-02-18
<erkan^> i go sleep
<erkan^> bye
 * popey tickles AlanBell and Pendulum 
<Pendulum> hi popey 
<AlanBell> o/ popey 
<Ichi_scrotum> I'm looking for the vinux irc chat
<Pendulum> Ichi_scrotum: they're on a different server
<Pendulum> #vinux on irc.blufudge.net according to their website
<Ichi_scrotum> so, I would use that as the server?
<Pendulum> irc.blufudge.net is the server
<Ichi_scrotum> I'm having trouble connecting
<Ichi_scrotum> the /connect command plus irc.blufudge.net comes up with nothing
<Ichi_scrotum> thanks for the help, though
<Pendulum> what IRC client are you using?
<Ichi_scrotum> xchat
<Pendulum> okay, I don't know xchat so well
<Pendulum> because I had no problem connecting to irc.blufudge.net
<Pendulum> (on irssi)
<Ichi_scrotum> what client?
<Pendulum> irssi
<Ichi_scrotum> hmm
<Ichi_scrotum> okay I'm installing with apt-get
<Ichi_scrotum> it's connecting
<Ichi_scrotum> thanks, cat
<charlie-tca> maco: I see it now... looks like I have to delete my firefox profile completely and start over?
<charlie-tca> live cd does not lose the footer on ubuntu.com
 * charlie-tca smacks head
<charlie-tca> and since I copy my .mozilla folder to each computer, it repeats the error on each release
#ubuntu-accessibility 2011-02-19
<AlanBell> maco: http://community.spotspecific.com/attachments/17/BSLtutor.ogv
 * AlanBell has been pretending to be a developer
 * nigelb notes AlanBell is a developer.
<charlie-tca> first accessibable installation test case is at http://testcases.qa.ubuntu.com/Install/DesktopAccessibility
<charlie-tca> If I did not screw it up ;-)
<hajour> charlie-tca, we now discus or we go agree to let speechcontrol upstream
<charlie-tca> If you send it upstream, many more will be able to use it
<hajour> yes but a few have still doubts we first need to talk about it charlie-tca  i have a little break now after a meeting from more then 3 hours and a pm talk from about 45 minutes right away after that :)
<charlie-tca> yes, I understand there are many concerns when doing a project
<Pendulum> hajour: I definitely think Speechcontrol is better served as a project and will better serve its users as an upstream
#ubuntu-accessibility 2011-02-20
* Pendulum changed the topic of #ubuntu-accessibility to: Ubuntu Accessibility Team https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Accessibility for more info | http://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-accessibility to join the mailing list | Channel IRC logs: http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/ - Updated every hour | Next Team Meeting, March 16, 2011 21:00 UTC. Meeting agenda:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Accessibility/Team/MeetingAgenda | UDS Diversity Meeting, February
* Pendulum changed the topic of #ubuntu-accessibility to: Ubuntu Accessibility Team https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Accessibility for more info | http://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-accessibility to join the mailing list | Channel IRC logs: http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/ - Updated every hour | Next Team Meeting Mar 16, 2011 21:00 UTC. Meeting agenda:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Accessibility/Team/MeetingAgenda | UDS Diversity Meeting, Feb 22, 2011
<charlie-tca> Had to manually start orca today to try an install; zeitgeist-daemon is crashing my installation process today
<charlie-tca> the installation fails to go past the second page, bug 722235
<ubot2> Launchpad bug 722235 in zeitgeist "zeitgeist-daemon crashed with OSError in makedirs(): [Errno 13] Permission denied: '/home/ubuntu/.local/share/zeitgeist'" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/722235
#ubuntu-accessibility 2012-02-15
<AlanBell> hi all
<AlanBell> Pendulum is sadly not so well and she asked me if I could run the meeting that we are scheduled to have about nowish
<AlanBell> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Wed Feb 15 21:02:14 2012 UTC.  The chair is AlanBell. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
<charlie-tca> Nowish?
<charlie-tca> Hi, AlanBell 
<AlanBell> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Accessibility/Team/MeetingAgenda
<AlanBell> hi charlie-tca 
<AlanBell> I think we will have a fairly slowish meeting, there are not too many items on the agenda and some others might pop in
<charlie-tca> Okay, I may have to reboot my xchat in between, so if I disappear, I will be back, sometimes in 15 minutes
<AlanBell> thats fine, no great hurry
<AlanBell> so we have an agenda starting with a review of the overall team blueprint, the testing blueprint and the development blueprint then any other business
<AlanBell> the current point in the cycle is that Alpha 2 is out, and Feature Freeze is tomorrow
<charlie-tca> in the meantime, testing screenreader installs in 10.04.4
<AlanBell> #topic Review Community Accessibility Team Blueprint ( https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/community-p-accessibility-team-community-goals ) 
<charlie-tca> How do I say, I haven't gotten to those things, and may not?
<AlanBell> deferred I think
<charlie-tca> I am too thin this cycle for my own good
<AlanBell> yeah, I have a lot of stuff on and I am not getting all the stuff done I wanted to :(
<AlanBell> I think that 12.04 is generally a lot more testable than 11.10 was, just we all seem a bit pressed for time to do much testing this cycle
<charlie-tca> Yeah, I agree. I will try and get some testing on it next week, so I can try to update the test case for QA
<AlanBell> there is a neat unity testing script tool that they have provided now, it would be nice to add accessibility test cases to that
<charlie-tca> I have given up on trying to do any automation. It seems I do not have enough knowledge to do it
<AlanBell> I did do a dummy speech dispatcher plugin that pipes output to a file like this http://people.ubuntu.com/~alanbell/orca.out
<AlanBell> I think this is handy for documenting bugs in speech output
<AlanBell> "Erase Ubuntu precise and reinstall Replace Windows with Ubuntu." that is one, I don't have windows but the accessible text tells me I have!
<charlie-tca> Shouldn't that be "replace existing OS with Ubuntu"?
<AlanBell> probably
<charlie-tca> or maybe it doesn't even belong there. It is just a mistake
<AlanBell> yeah, last time I reported it I think ev didn't believe me that it was spoken or something
<charlie-tca> Yeah, we get that sometimes
<AlanBell> anyhow, there are still plenty of bugs like that in ubiquity and other applications,
<charlie-tca> It's hard to understand the speech if you don't concentrate enough
<AlanBell> yeah, a transcript is much more useful on a bug report than someone describing what they heard
<charlie-tca> That report is the spoken output?
<charlie-tca> That's neat!
<AlanBell> yeah, it is what orca sends to speech dispatcher
<AlanBell> instead of piping it to espeak it redirects it to a file
<charlie-tca> That should be a lot of help with bug reports.
<AlanBell> yeah, joanie thought I was mad when I told her what I was doing :)
<AlanBell> I think I should probably write an article about that, and maybe get some help packaging it so it is easy to install
<charlie-tca> Please
<charlie-tca> We can use that kind of application.
<charlie-tca> She maybe did not understand it.
<charlie-tca> Well, maybe better keep going on this meeting thing/
<AlanBell> yes, I think it is an important use-case
<AlanBell> indeed
<AlanBell> personas is another thing on that blueprint, I kind of did the Simon persona, but it is not published yet, I need to review that with someone
<AlanBell> http://pad.ubuntu-uk.org/simon
<charlie-tca> What needs to happen?
<AlanBell> well someone other than me needs to read it and see if it makes sense
<charlie-tca> That's one of them things pendulum should be reviewing
<AlanBell> then need to put it in a blog article and put it in the wiki
<charlie-tca> I am not good at it
<AlanBell> ok
<AlanBell> right, lets move on to the next blueprint
<AlanBell> #topic Review Accessibility Testing Blueprint ( https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/desktop-p-accessibility-team-testing ) 
<AlanBell> so we need to do more testing and probably get a bit better about tracking important bugs
<charlie-tca> okay
<charlie-tca> looks like I am all over that one, too. I will try to look at it this week
<AlanBell> we have the Ubuntu Global Jam weekend coming up, it might be good to get various loco teams doing accessibility testing
<AlanBell> if people are looking for stuff to do then testing the installer and desktop with orca would be great
<charlie-tca> Keep that in mind, anyway
<charlie-tca> We have to get a good test case written for them to use
<AlanBell> or just run through some of the untity testing application with orca turned on
<AlanBell> ok, lets move on and read through the development blueprint
<charlie-tca> Yeah, that would work too. We seem to have more testers for precise than in the past, too
<AlanBell> #topic Review Development Blueprint ( https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/desktop-p-accessibility-polish ) 
<AlanBell> I know quite a few items here were postponed
<charlie-tca> yup
<charlie-tca> anything on the ezoom plugin yet?
<AlanBell> I have been investigating ezoom text cursor tracking, it was unstable with two monitors
<AlanBell> well actually it was unstable on one monitor, after you had used it on two monitors
<AlanBell> I need to re-test that, I think it is something that could go in a PPA in precise, not sure it is ready for prime time
<charlie-tca> okay
<AlanBell> it is pretty good though, I was trying to do a screencast of it when it started crashing my machine
<AlanBell> other stuff going on, I have been pestering gord about HUD accessibility
<charlie-tca> great, got orca stuck on United States Denver in my install
<AlanBell> balloons is new to the community team and is doing QA stuff, I showed him how to get orca output to a file and he was going to look into whether that would be useful for automated tests
<charlie-tca> great
<charlie-tca> He is getting involved more. But, you know, it takes at least a cycle to get get things together
<AlanBell> oh and there was this proposal by jcastro to drop compizconfig-settings-manager from the distribution
<charlie-tca> yeah
<charlie-tca> I saw that and made my compaint. Unity is not the only thing uses compiz
<AlanBell> one of the main issues was people with scrollwheels accidentally operating sliders, so I contributed a patch to remove them all
<AlanBell> the proposal to drop it has basically been droppped now, it looks like it is staying there
<charlie-tca> The biggest issue is no one who installs compiz without Unity will have any settings available
<AlanBell> there have been a number of patches to make it a bit safer for users, fundamentally the problem is that various compiz plugins can be a bit crashy when asked to re-read their settings (looking at you unity)
<charlie-tca> But that should not mean we take the ability to change away from non-unity users
<AlanBell> so they fall over in a heap with various .cpp files throwing out errors about not freeing nux objects correctly
<AlanBell> nothing whatsoever to do with the python ccsm applicaition
<AlanBell> so yeah, ccsm got unfairly blamed for compiz plugin crashes, anyhow, we are monitoring that, and contributing fixes where possible.
<charlie-tca> Good. I hate the idea that if Unity doesn't need it, let's toss it
<AlanBell> indeed
<AlanBell> ok, so this is not the most productive meeting ever, I think we should mail the list with the minutes, do some actions and have a bit of a renewed effort to get intensive testing and polishing done after feature freeze
<AlanBell> #endmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting ended Wed Feb 15 21:51:10 2012 UTC.  
<meetingology> Minutes (wiki):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-accessibility/2012/ubuntu-accessibility.2012-02-15-21.02.moin.txt
<meetingology> Minutes (html):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-accessibility/2012/ubuntu-accessibility.2012-02-15-21.02.html
<AlanBell> and get well soon Pendulum!
<charlie-tca> Thanks for chairing, AlanBell 
<charlie-tca> At least we got some good discussion in
<AlanBell> yup
<AlanBell> oh I forgot to mention there should be an onboard release real soon now
<charlie-tca> I see 0.97 being asked for, is there a later one?
<AlanBell> 0.97 is great
<AlanBell> bug #932855
<ubot2`> Launchpad bug 932855 in onboard "New release available: version 0.97.0 - debian source attached" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/932855
<charlie-tca> That's the one. Hopefully, we get it in precise
<AlanBell> yeah, it will be in before feature freeze
<AlanBell>   * Add Alan Bell's themes: Typist, ModelM
<AlanBell> yay \o/
<charlie-tca> We're gaining then
#ubuntu-accessibility 2012-02-16
<TheMuso> Yeah I'll upload onboard today once a locale related bug is fixed.
<TheMuso> Also note that I put a comment at the bottom of the pollish blueprint explaining why I wasn't able to get magnification sorted.
<TheMuso> Its also worth noting that I'd like to fix a few of those work items from that blueprint in Vinux, and can then merge back into Ubuntu.
<charlie-tca> Thanks!
<Pendulum> AlanBell: thank you!
 * Pendulum will catch up on logs when she's feeling a little better
#ubuntu-accessibility 2012-02-17
<Fudge> sorry i missed meeting but i read
#ubuntu-accessibility 2012-02-19
<webczat> hello
<webczat> does the newest ubuntu dev livecd play a sound when booted?
<webczat> I have a problem, when I boot up the development livecd
<webczat> then unity2d is not accessile, the bridge does not work, probably does not load. any workarounds?
<AlanBell> webczat: the live USB didn't for me, I am going to try the CD shortly, there are problems with it booting muted sometimes
<webczat> AlanBell: I think qt-at-spi may be misplaced or something. the bridge is probably not recognized, if it is, then i still cannot reliably switch windows to check on a terminal.
<webczat> and the installation program encounters an error so I also can't permanently put this thing on my virtual disk
<AlanBell> just installing in a virtualbox VM now, the drums are there
<AlanBell> the desktop isn't quite right, doesn't speak for the dash, I am doing an install now and it is speaking the installer like it used to (badly)
<AlanBell> I think I will have a go at changing some of the ubiquity strings, I really don't like the reference to Windows that is hard coded in it
<webczat> AlanBell: anyway, qt-at-spi is not loaded cause I can't see any windows for qt and dash/etc is not read, this is unity2d probably
<AlanBell> webczat: fancy an all expenses paid trip to America? http://uds.ubuntu.com/participate/sponsorship/
<webczat> I'm not going anywhere
<webczat> :)
<AlanBell> :) it was just a thought, sponsorship requests close on Tuesday it seems
 * webczat nods
#ubuntu-accessibility 2013-02-13
<Tatuus> Howdy how! Not sure if this is the right place to suggest this, but could it be possible to have an added function to Firefox bookmarks? When i would press certain letter on the keyboard, the selection jumps to the start of according alphabetical part on the bookmark list? This is on Windows version 
<AlanBell> Tatuus: probably not the right place really
<AlanBell> Tatuus: are you running orca for windows though?
<AlanBell> no, that doesn't run on windows it seems
#ubuntu-accessibility 2013-02-16
<Fudge> first letter navigation for firefox bookarms?
<Fudge> bookmarks
#ubuntu-accessibility 2013-02-17
<herent> I'm not sure if this is quite the right place, but I have some questions that I think fall under accessibility
<herent> I injured my left arm and typing with it has been somewhat hard for the last few weeks
<herent> I would like to remap some of the shortcut buttons on my keyboard and mouse to work for shortcuts
<herent> like copy / paste, etc
<herent> I'm also trying to figure out how to edit the buttons on my wacom bamboo tablet
<herent> or program gesture shortcuts with it
<herent> there doesn't seem to be much information on doing this online
<herent> especially for 12.04
<herent> some things like btnx don't work and don't have a live website any more
<herent> I looked into voice control software, too, but didn't find much at all on that
<herent> should I switch to a different OS until I heal?
#ubuntu-accessibility 2015-02-10
<speaker1234> I'm trying to add speech recognition capability to ubuntu by making part of the NaturallySpeaking extension, natlink, run on linux while being driven by NaturallySpeaking on Windows
<speaker1234> the first generation attempt is only going for keystroke injection at a system level which should drive most applications for plaintext input.
<speaker1234> The second generation would be feeding back window focus cues so we can change grammars based on context
<speaker1234> my question is where do I start looking for this kind of information (systemwide keystroke injection and finding state of window on top. It would also be nice to be able to direct keystrokes to a specific window whether it is on the top or not
