#ubuntu-doc 2005-08-01
<poningru> whos incharge of ubotu ?
<rob^> I forget
<poningru> cause its locked
<rob^> I just made a change to it
<poningru> oh
<poningru> is it the dualboot?
<poningru> anyway it worked thanks
<rob^> some people added some inapproprate things to it a while back, they may have some sought of acl on it now I'm not sure
<rob^> yeah, I added dualboot for you
<HrdwrBoB> sort not sought :)
<rob^> yeah, yeah..
<rob^> I'm sick with the flu, leave me alone :P
<poningru> hehe we forgive you
<Burgundavia> rwabel, from what I understand, backports staging can also go away
<Burgundavia> backports is now just like universe and multiverse
<Burgundavia> what language was this? https://wiki.ubuntu.com/RestrictedFormats?action=diff
<HrdwrBoB> spanish
<HrdwrBoB> looks like
<Burgundavia> sure it is not portugese?
<HrdwrBoB> nope
<Burgundavia> ok
<Burgundavia> well the old revisions are in the wiki
<Burgundavia> we can pull out when we find out
* rob^ pokes head in
<Burgundavia> Kassim <-- this is the guy that has been translating pages in place
<Burgundavia> please revert if you see him
<rob^> ah
<rob^> what a pain
<Burgundavia> well the copies are stored, so when we figure out what language, it will be trivial to copy them to a new page
<HrdwrBoB> any way of contacting him etc?
<Burgundavia> the work is not lose
<Burgundavia> not easily
<Burgundavia> mediawiki has a user talk page, and tells you when someone edits it
<Burgundavia> moin does not
<HrdwrBoB> ah, I thought it was missing a few features
<Burgundavia> moin is much nicer in terms of thoughput
<Burgundavia> it has manage 10x the number of hits as mediawiki
<Burgundavia> but mediawiki has some useful features for larger groups of people and communication only on the wiki
<Burgundavia> the wiki mark in media is also more sane and has more features
<Burgundavia> for better presentation docs
<rwabel> burgundavia: thanks for the answer
<Burgundavia> rwabel, np
<rwabel> burgundavia: the page is in portugese, even though I don't speak that language
<Burgundavia> rwabel, would you mind moving his translations from the history of the following pages?
<Burgundavia> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/InstallUbuntuOnLowMemorySystems
<Burgundavia> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/RestrictedFormats
<Burgundavia> I have to be somewhere in 30 minutes
<rwabel> how do I move history?
<Burgundavia> just PortugesePageName is fine now
<Burgundavia> just copy paset from the history
<rwabel> only english part
<Burgundavia> click on getinfo
<Burgundavia> and then view the edit by Kassim
<Burgundavia> copy that
<rwabel> ok I found it
<rwabel> and copy where in the RestrictedFormats?
<rwabel> it's a complet different subject?!
<Burgundavia> is it?
<Burgundavia> anyway, I have run
<HrdwrBoB> wtf is he doing
<Burgundavia> if you get stuck, email the list
<HrdwrBoB> why translate things in place
<rwabel> I'm now a bit confused where to put that....it's complet different stuff
<rob^> when the faq guide was ported into svn, was it done under both licences or just one?
<Burgundavia> rob^, gpl, gfdl and cc-by-sa 2.0
<Burgundavia> rob^, ours and his
<rob^> all three?
<rob^> hmm
<Burgundavia> it is a deriv of his work, which is gpl
<Burgundavia> and thus must be gpl
<rob^> yeah
<Burgundavia> he agreed to relicense under our licenses
<Burgundavia> which makes it tri-licensed
<rob^> super..
<rwabel> burgundavia: I better don't move the things, I don't wanna mess sth up....
<Burgundavia> ok, email the list about it then
<rob^> I thought the gpl is a software licence
<Burgundavia> rob^, it is a license
<rob^> the gfdl is the documentation one
<Burgundavia> it can applied ot anything, but it is meant for software
<rob^> yeah.
<rwabel> burgundavia: email what to whom?
<Burgundavia> gfdl and cc-by-ca 2.0 are DFSG-non-fre
<Burgundavia> rwabel, email the ubuntu-doc list about those docs
<rwabel> burgundavia: sorry, I've no idea about these docs, what should I email..I mean what's the problem or what is not ok..what should be done.
<rwabel> night
<Burgundavia> rob^, the gpl is also locally on all Ubuntu systems
<Burgundavia> /usr/share/licenses or something similar
<rob^> yeah
<Burgundavia> you can just point them at that
<rob^> its only an entity link anyway
<rob^> in the doc
<rob^> we could just change the entity to point to that instead
<jsgotangco> rob^, nice on YelpMain but you'll have to contend with scrollkeeper for that as well editing the toc.xml is quite easy but I think the plan for Breezy would be a separate document
<poningru> anyone know why the wiki is subdomained under ubuntu and not ubuntulinux?
<jsgotangco> but if you just want to put these documents in Yelp status quo, just adding a yelp chunk on the final xml would work
<HrdwrBoB> poningru: it's both
<jsgotangco> poningru, its the same thing
<rob^> jsgotangco, say again?
<rob^> jsgotangco, I was going to suggest it at the meeting as an alternative
<rob^> jsgotangco, I'll edit the toc.xml if needed
<rob^> or whatever else is needed..
* rob^ is confused
<jsgotangco> rob^, coordinate with jdub about it
<poningru> ic
<jsgotangco> rob^, all entries in yelp are catalogued by sk
<jsgotangco> (currently)
<jsgotangco> that's why we have a lot of upstream docs in it at the moment
<rob^> ok
<rob^> are you talking about yelp in Breezy at the moment
<jsgotangco> Hoary as well
<rob^> the main page in hoary at the moment (as released) is kind of like my idea
<rob^> we just need to expand it to cover all our docs
<jsgotangco> if the Yelp main page will be status quo, we'll just have to add an sk catalog file so that it'll be part of the front page 
<Burgundavia> the current main page is seriously non-functional
<Burgundavia> with no search, there is no reasonable way for anyone to find anything
<rob^> Burgundavia, yes, it just needs love
<Burgundavia> and we can safely say that 95% of the questions will be about 10% of our material
<rob^> search should be a yelp thing, not a page thing
<jsgotangco> well yes, is an upstream issue either way on the search thing...
<Burgundavia> search is unlikely to happen in the breezy timeframe, from what I understand
<jsgotangco> that's why the workaround was to have a separate document on the yelp main page
<jsgotangco> but if thats not workable, we'll just have to contend with adding sk catalog files again
<jsgotangco> and edit toc.xml if needed
<insanekane> froud_: are you there ?
<Burgundavia> insanekane, you speak portugese or spanish?
<insanekane> neither
<jsgotangco> we'll probably get colony 3 anytime this week...
<insanekane> Burgundavia: last night, my power went out ... thats why i left suddenly
<Burgundavia> insanekane, ah, poor man
<insanekane> Burgundavia: heavy rains in this area
<Burgundavia> ouch
<rob^> jsgotangco, where is toc.xml in svn?
<jsgotangco> its not part of our svn
<rob^> in the distro
<rob^> ok
<rob^> I got it
<jsgotangco>  Meeting time (there is a reason I put this first, please leave it!)
<jsgotangco> ?
<jsgotangco> its in the agenda
<rob^> yeah that was me
<jsgotangco> what's the issue?
<jsgotangco> we rotate 14 and 22
<rob^> 1400z on Thursday is really bad
<Burgundavia> it is shit for me as well
<rob^> thats midnight my time, and I have to be up at 5am for work
<Burgundavia> but it does get me up early
<jsgotangco> rob^, its morning for the canucks
<Burgundavia> 7am for me
<jsgotangco> 22 for me is 6am
<rob^> we need to make it like friday instead
<rob^> or at some other time
<poningru> is this like a meeting or something I had a question about a wiki page
<poningru> can I butt in?
<Burgundavia> meeting times suck for everybody at different times
<Burgundavia> that is why we rotate
<jsgotangco> poningru, sure ask away this is just informal talk
<rob^> yeah I know they do
<poningru> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/WiFiHowto
<poningru> doesnt that look complete?
<rob^> but even an hour earlier would be helpful
<poningru> can we take that off of the cleanup list
<Burgundavia> poningru, yes, but a little too wordy
<poningru> ok so you want it sweet and simplified?
<jsgotangco> rob^, anything earlier than 14 would be asking too much for the people in NA
<poningru> will work on it then
<rob^> man world wide meeting times suck
<Burgundavia> yes they do
<Burgundavia> the technical board has fun
<Burgundavia> as mdz is in my timezone
<rob^> a lot more members..
<poningru> hehe yeah they are not so bad if most of the people are in the same hemisphere
<jsgotangco> the next CC meeting would suck as that would be at 4am
<Burgundavia> poningru, ideally, it should be do A because of B, then do C
<jsgotangco> rob^, problem on our side is that our team is spread across atlantic and pacific :)
* rob^ is just on the wrong side of the world
<Burgundavia> we have active teams members is -7, +1, 0 and whater the aussie/jstongco is
<rob^> +10
<jsgotangco> yeah
<jsgotangco> im +8
<jsgotangco> so a solution is that we all emigrate somewhere...
<rob^> I dunno, but maybe something could be discussed was my objective for it
<jsgotangco> rob^, sure we'll put it on discussion on the meeting
<insanekane> or perhaps some asynchronous mechanism, such as ... mailing list ? :)
* insanekane ducks
<rob^> grr why does yelp not like the yelp .xml files
<Burgundavia> it doesn't like malformed xml
<rob^> heh yeah
* Burgundavia is glad that HostingGeek has never found the time to grace our channel
<jsgotangco> lol
<jsgotangco> did he get banned again
* jsgotangco likes LocalHelp for lack of a search function...
<Burgundavia> no
<Burgundavia> he is being himself in #inkscape
<Burgundavia> he got banned from #openttd
<Burgundavia> jsgotangco, you mean that you like local help if we don't get a search function?
<Burgundavia> poningru, the general rule I follow when I write a doc is after I am finished, look at each sentence and try to reduce the word count
<jsgotangco> Burgundavia, it can work if we are in that situation...
<Burgundavia> jsgotangco, which I fear we may be in
<Burgundavia> again...
<jsgotangco> but then even old Yelp in RHEL had an Index
<jsgotangco> i mean search-capable index
<Burgundavia> rofl --> http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?t=19585
<Burgundavia> windows user downloads a .deb and wonders what to do with it
<jsgotangco> great
<jsgotangco> hmmm freeciv2 already has an osx binary..
<Burgundavia> yes
<jsgotangco> how good is open ttd
<Burgundavia> the original game plus some cool new features
<Burgundavia> they are working on new graphics (they currently need to old copyrighted ones)
<jsgotangco> oh you mean the original game is already open?
<Burgundavia> they also ship a deb
<Burgundavia> no
<Burgundavia> the original author of ttd reverse engineered ttd and rewrote it in C
<jsgotangco> isnt that sid meier
<jsgotangco> ?
<rob^> jsgotangco, Burgundavia I just made an update to YelpMain.. bbs
<Burgundavia> no
<Burgundavia> is Chris Sawyer, of Roller coast tycoon
<jsgotangco> oh right...christ sawyer
<jsgotangco> what are the other cool oss games out there
<Burgundavia> there is a list on the forums, just a sec
<jsgotangco> you mean they're already packaged for ubuntu?
<Burgundavia> some are
<jsgotangco> motu games :D
<Burgundavia> barrage is a fun little game
<Burgundavia> MOTUGames is mostly my idea
<jsgotangco> i would probably enjoy doing MOTUGames
<Burgundavia> I am waiting for unfrgivens intro developer docs
<Burgundavia> so I can start packaging
<Burgundavia> http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=5153
<jsgotangco> is openttd already in upstream?
<Burgundavia> no
<Burgundavia> put the .debs that openttd themselves make install fine on hoary and breezy
<jsgotangco> with sound?
<Burgundavia> yes
<Burgundavia> yes dmix
<jsgotangco> nice
<Burgundavia> but dmix appears to have borked on me
<jsgotangco> hmm let me try...
<jsgotangco> OpenTTD requires the original version of Transport Tycoon Deluxe data files in order to function. Please refer to the readme for more information.
<jsgotangco> gyaahhh
<Burgundavia> I have them
<Burgundavia> you want me to mail them to you?
<jsgotangco> how big?
<Burgundavia> 5 mb
<jsgotangco> gee fire away..its not that much
<Burgundavia> sent
<poningru> can you mail it to me as well please?
<poningru> poningru@gmail.com
<jsgotangco> oh its mostly artwork stuff...
<Burgundavia> all artwork stuff
<Burgundavia> poningru, sent
<poningru> thanks dude
<rob^> ok back
<rob^> my issue with localhelp, even though we don't have a search function, is that it becomes messy
<Burgundavia> yes it does
<rob^> it has pointers all over the place
<Burgundavia> we need to satisfy that 95%/10% divide
<rob^> and we already have a list of whats in each doc in the toc
<Burgundavia> which we currently do not do
<rob^> ie, in the toc of each document
<Burgundavia> every click that we require users to make has a "cost"
<rob^> and 99.9% of people have read a book
<Burgundavia> the higher the cost, the more likely they are to give up
<rob^> a toc shouldn't be unfamiliar with them either
<Burgundavia> the total "money" that people are usually willing to spend on help is about 1 or 2 clicks
<rob^> I think it would cost more click using Localhelp
<rob^> particularly if the info they were after isnt where they clicked
<Burgundavia> for some yes
<Burgundavia> but not for the majority
<rob^> YelpMain also makes keeping it up to date much easier
<jsgotangco> Burgundavia, i got nasty libc6 dependency problems while installing openttd
<rob^> LocalHelp is like having a whole new document] 
<Burgundavia> jsgotangco, oh crap
<Burgundavia> they are built against sarge
<jsgotangco> Burgundavia, hehehe...long debate on this...
<jsgotangco> rob^, the current plan is to have a new document on Yelp
<Burgundavia> sometimes binary compatiblity is nice, for stable distros
<jsgotangco> rob^, it was already discussed before by jdub and mpt
<rob^> jsgotangco, yes, but it doesn't need to be so complicated
<jsgotangco> rob^, we lack a search function :(
<rob^> jsgotangco, but we still have table of contents
<Burgundavia> when we get a search function, we can debate this again
<rob^> in each doc, automatically updated as we work on it
<rob^> a search function would be nice, but we don't have to have it
<jsgotangco> all help have search functions
<jsgotangco> except yelp at the moment
<rob^> something like LocalHelp works for the wiki because there is no other way to show that kind of info
<rob^> but not when each link has its own toc
<Burgundavia> say I am looking for one of the common 10 things
<rob^> faq/quick guide
<jsgotangco> rob^, but anything 2 levels deeper will make it tedious and overwhelming for some
<Burgundavia> but that requires a click
<rob^> most likely you will know what your problem is ie. I want to install a music app
<Burgundavia> no
<rob^> how can the 10 most asked questions cover that?
<Burgundavia> mostly you will no want you want to do
<Burgundavia> not how to do it
<rob^> jsgotangco, its not
<Burgundavia> task-based, not application-based
<jsgotangco> rob^, if you notice GNOME is starting to get task-based even
<Burgundavia> lmao --> http://forums.bit-tech.net/showthread.php?t=94318
<rob^> we shouldn't assume everyone who uses Ubunt is a compleat numbty
<rob^> 99% are not
<Burgundavia> 99% of the computer users in the world are
<rob^> at least 99% can read a toc
<Burgundavia> that is the segment we are targeting
<jsgotangco> Burgundavia, did you get the email of David Ottina?
<Burgundavia> but why make it hard
<rob^> our documents are books
<rob^> they have toc
<Burgundavia> jsgotangco, David Ottina?>
<rob^> we should be using that
<jsgotangco> Burgundavia, i'll forward
<Burgundavia> cheers
<rob^> jsgotangco, look at System -> Preferences for example, that list is huge and hard to read
<Burgundavia> yes, and the gnome people realize that
<Burgundavia> there is a wiki page about a rethink of that stuff
<rob^> but thats what LocalHelp is
<jsgotangco> that's why gnome is beginning to be task-based
<Burgundavia> no it isn't
<Burgundavia> we need about 7-10 items on the yelp main page
<Burgundavia> they can expand to 7 items each
<rob^> Burgundavia, yes, in fact it is
<rob^> and that makes it worse
<Burgundavia> not if the headings are well designed
* jsgotangco gives up on the yelp discussion as it was already discussed a lot of times already
<Burgundavia> rather than argue about it
<Burgundavia> lets just fix LocalHelp
<rob^> it takes me at least just six scrolls of the wheel mouse just to view it all
<rob^> most people wont read past the first page or two
<rob^> and just give up
<Burgundavia> rob^, remember that the subsections will be hidden by default
<Burgundavia> and only open when they click
<jsgotangco> thats why books arent really great for help in the first place
<rob^> I'm not arguing, I want to fix LocalHelp, thats why I am speaking up
<Burgundavia> also remeber that the text on the wiki is larger
<Burgundavia> and the spacing larger
<rob^> a little, but its still long
<Burgundavia> but most of the subsections will not be open
<rob^> and there is still a lot to be added to LocalHelp yet also
<Burgundavia> so you wil see 9 items
<rob^> my way you would see about 5
<rob^> one for each doc
<rob^> click on one, there is the toc for that doc
<Burgundavia> I think I can safely predict taht most people will simply click ont he faq guide
<Burgundavia> and those that don't will get confused
<rob^> the faq guide is for quick answers to common questions
<rob^> thats its purpose
<Burgundavia> then why make the extra click? if we already know what most people are going to ask
<rob^> but by your reasoning, we should scrap everything and just have the faq guide
<Burgundavia> not really
<Burgundavia> I want small bitsized docs
<Burgundavia> not huge books
<Burgundavia> that are massivelly interlinked
<Burgundavia> think a well done wiki
<jsgotangco> there's a reason why Burgundavia wants to respec the curret quickguide as well
<jsgotangco> if LocalHelp is made possible
<jsgotangco> i'll brb
<rob^> dam irc client died on me
<jsgotangco> Burgundavia: open ttd works great in osx though
<Burgundavia> ah
<Burgundavia> jsgotangco, have you sent that email on to me?
<jsgotangco> oh right wait sorry about that
<mdke> hey all
<mdke> rob^, ping?
<jsgotangco> hey mdke
* jsgotangco is reading about Rails
<rob^> mdke, pong
<rob^> whats up?
<Burgundavia> salut mdke 
<mdke> yo
<mdke> rob^, i noticed you changed the links to the faqguide on DocteamProjects, is something wrong with the hosting it has currently?
<rob^> the previews arnt working
<mdke> in what way?
<rob^> ie, click on them, you get an error message
<jsgotangco> Burgundavia: sent
<Burgundavia> jsgotangco, cheers
<rob^> eg: 
<rob^> Routing Error
<rob^> Recognition failed for "/~ubuntu-doc/about-ubuntu/C/"
<mdke> rob^, i see it, odd.
<rob^> I didn't know if anyone was updating them
<mdke> yes i have been
<rob^> so I have the latest copy of the faq guide on my web host
<mdke> ok
<rob^> but I can change the link back if you want
<Burgundavia> jsgotangco, that is major cool stuff
<Burgundavia> have to parse it more later
<jsgotangco> Burgundavia: aye its a mouthful...i have to digest it further
<Burgundavia> I need to get to bed
<Burgundavia> job search calls tomorrow
<jsgotangco> heh good luck!
<Burgundavia> and faxing my laptop testing stuff!
<jsgotangco> Burgundavia: claire sent the wrong fax number
<Burgundavia> yes, she emailed me the correct one
<jsgotangco> ahh
<jsgotangco> i just scanned mine
<mdke> rob^, i'll ping tseng to ask why the hosting isn't working. but the docteam linode is working already, we only need a domain name for it and then we can use that.
<rob^> mdke, the way I have it is a bit of a fudge (it requires me building then uploading via ftp to my website)
<rob^> cool
<rob^> feel free to change them to it
<mdke> dunno if its worth changing them already to the ip address of the server, or waiting for the domain
<rob^> docteam.u.o?
<mdke> com
<rob^> yeah that one?
<rob^> ok
<mdke> yes
<rob^> is it ok to have a link to the GPL (ie a ulink) or do I need to include it with the faq guide?
<jsgotangco> see you guys later
<mpt> Can yelp load stuff over http?
#ubuntu-doc 2005-08-02
<Burgundavia> salut mpt
<mpt> hi Burgundavia, I've just put ubuntu-help on the Supermirror
<Burgundavia> cool
<mpt> mpt@myrealbox.com/help--0
<Burgundavia> now I just need the baz crack of the day to work, haven't tried in a few days
<mpt> wah, where'd he go
<Burgundavia> bloody xchat
<mpt> Should show up at http://mirrors.sourcecontrol.net/mpt@myrealbox.com/ within about 15 minutes
<Burgundavia> ok
<mpt> so feel free to add all the docbook markup I haven't learnt yet, fill in your own sections, etc :-)
<Burgundavia> ok
<mpt> for each topic, think: Why has someone come here?
<mpt> it's quite probably because they've tried the obvious thing, and it hasn't worked
<mpt> so each topic should cover the most likely causes of failure.
<mpt> anyway, I need to log off and give the ethernet cable back to the hotel computer :-)
<mpt> I'll be back two hours before the docteam meeting
<Burgundavia> ok
<mpt> tchau
<Burgundavia> mdke, I am waving the flaming sword of organization on the wiki
<mdke> hello
<mdke> sounds good
<Burgundavia> ok
<Burgundavia> does moving fix the links to that page or do I need to do that myself?
<mdke> you have to do that
<mdke> same as deleting
<Burgundavia> ok, same as mediawiki
<Burgundavia> salut jsgotangco 
<jsgotangco> salut
<jsgotangco> Burgundavia, you seem to have an itch on Installation help heh
<mdke> yes cept mediawiki leaves a redirect note on the previous page afaik, ours doesn't even do that
<Burgundavia> mdke, moving a page creates a redirect, yes
<jsgotangco> ahhh and mdke is back again...
<Burgundavia> however, mediawiki search ignores redirects
<Burgundavia> ours does not
<Burgundavia> I have been struggling with backlinks
<Burgundavia> is ther something like this? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Whatlinkshere/Main_Page
<Burgundavia> all I can find is this --> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Installation?action=LocalSiteMap
<mdke> yes
<Burgundavia> which sucks
<Burgundavia> to be honest
<mdke> just click on the title of the page you want to see the backlinks for
<mdke> dude
<mdke> you've been deleting pages without knowing that?
<Burgundavia> I have been following local site map
<mdke> no wonder there are broken links around
<jsgotangco> heh
<jsgotangco> steam roller
<Burgundavia> sorry our wiki software hides useful features in stupid locations
* rob^ finally gets xauth working :)
<mdke> i thought all wikis have the "click on title for backlinks" thing
<Burgundavia> I like mediawiki's links, sorry
<Burgundavia> nothing is hidden in menus
<Burgundavia> or hidden completely
<jsgotangco> right
<jsgotangco> go mediawiki
<Burgundavia> the other thing that bugs me is getting from any special page back the page it is about
<mdke> ok burgs it is hidden I agree, but you really should make sure you know stuff like that before going around deleting pages
<Burgundavia> mediawiki has a link called aricle
<Burgundavia> mdke, sorry about that, but that is total bollocks where it puts it
<mdke> Burgundavia, i agree, but still, if you're gonna do drastic work, read the docs man
<Burgundavia> yes
<Burgundavia> it is just a wiki
<Burgundavia> if I need to read a documenation about how to use it, that is completely broken
<mdke> i agree
<mdke> but still, i warned you about backlinks a few times
<Burgundavia> I thought I knew what I was doing
<Burgundavia> I found a semi useful link
<mdke> ok well np
<mdke> we can fix the broken links
* Burgundavia grumbles about stupid broken shit
* mdke_ presses wrong button
<mdke> Burgundavia, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuHowCome has escaped the flaming sword? :p
<Burgundavia> haven't got to it yet
<mdke> ;)
<Burgundavia> don't worry, there is lots to burn through before then
<jsgotangco> when i saw it, i read "HowToCome"
<Burgundavia> lmao
* Burgundavia now has to decide whether to sleep for 4 hours or just stay up
<rob^> thats a pretty big wiki page
<Burgundavia> indeed
<Burgundavia> the author is quite a nice guy
<Burgundavia> just needed to be guided in the correct direction
<rob^> theres gotta be some useful stuff there :)
<Burgundavia> what do I do with these lovely Moin installation docs?
<Burgundavia> they cannot stay where they are, due to misleading names
<mdke> you can't edit them afaik
<Burgundavia> what!!!
<mdke> lemme read your email
<Burgundavia> you are right
<Burgundavia> I cannot
<rob^> hmm my breezy test-bed pc needs 550 mb to upgrade from warty to breezy
* Burgundavia goes with his sword to hunt down hendrik
<mdke> all the HelpOn pages are moin related
<Burgundavia> yes
* jsgotangco avoids the wiki stuff as much as possible
<Burgundavia> I still hate our wiki
<rob^> if you don't want to remove them, maybe rename them to MoinEtcEtc or something
<Burgundavia> but, like any ugly child, it still needs love
<Burgundavia> yes
<rob^> it needs a bitch slap
<Burgundavia> rob^, I don't want them to die, they just need to move
<mdke> maybe we can make a subpage under /Moin/
<rob^> Burgundavia, yeah, so if you rename them people wont get confused
<mdke> but all the links will need redoing i think
<rob^> yeah :P
<Burgundavia> that cannot be that many
<jsgotangco> does the moin sandbox still exist
<Burgundavia> yes
<Burgundavia> MoinSandbox, I think
<jsgotangco> either that or WikiSandbox
<jsgotangco> how about FindPage
<jsgotangco> and HelpForBeginners
<mdke> there are millions of help pages
<mdke> well, not millions obviously
<jsgotangco> well those are the basic Moin help pages...
<mdke> HelpContents is the index
<Burgundavia> I am also thinking about a standard page name for installation of programs
<mdke> Burgundavia, the problem is you have to deal with all the language variants of the HelpPages too
<Burgundavia> yes
<Burgundavia> I am well aware of that
<jsgotangco> see HelpForBeginners is still standard Moin help
<jsgotangco> heh
<Burgundavia> it also needs to move
<mdke> i dunno
<Burgundavia> moin has no bloody namespaces
<mdke> i still believe that linking is the way forward
<Burgundavia> like Moin:Blah
<Burgundavia> upstream rejected my idea of adding them as "a hack"
* Burgundavia thinks upstream doesn't understand presentation wikis
<jsgotangco> nice...the whole ubuntu moin wiki still has all the moin help pages...
<mdke> of course, you don't think it should?
<jsgotangco> mdke, not all
<Burgundavia> I don't mind the moin help pages
<Burgundavia> I just want them clearly labelled as Moin pages
<jsgotangco> but then, those pages are really useless in a security sense...
<mdke> jsgotangco, but how do users learn about how the wiki works?
<Burgundavia> do you think ProgramInstallation or InstallingProgram is a better default?
<Burgundavia> mdke, you make a page like this --> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Introduction
<jsgotangco> mdke, like i said, some pages are pretty useless for end users as they pertain mostly to Moin backend config and ACLs
<Burgundavia> linked from FrontPage
<mdke> jsgotangco, but they might be useful to some, so why remove them? do they do harm to others?
<Burgundavia> email sent to Hendrik about moving those Moin installation pages
<jsgotangco> mdke, in a stricter sense, it does not jive with overall Ubuntu wiki documentation hence there should at least be a way to classify them
<Burgundavia> mdke, in our "main namespace", there should only be docs that pertain to Ubuntu
<Burgundavia> and other Ubuntu related stuff
<jsgotangco> HelpOnUpdatingPython for example...is very much a Moin issue rather than a Python issue
<mdke> those pages are not linked on UserDocumentation
<mdke> Burgundavia, there are a lot more than docs in our main namespace
<jsgotangco> they may not be, but it doesn't mean its not there :)
<Burgundavia> mdke, they can be found via search
<Burgundavia> mdke, that is why I killed those InstallationTutorial pages
<Burgundavia> read my email
<Burgundavia> https://wiki.ubuntu.com//FrontPage?action=fullsearch&context=180&value=python&titlesearch=Titles
<Burgundavia> which are you going to choose?
* mdke shrugs
<mdke> i'll choose them all and see which one helps
<Burgundavia> ouch
<Burgundavia> that is a lot of clicking and reading
<mdke> i use linux, i'm always clicking and readings :D
<Burgundavia> I really want to move non-docs off our wiki
<Burgundavia> I have raised this idea before, but got no support
<mdke> non docs?
<jsgotangco> heck we better prepare a lot of pitchforks for that
<mdke> so developments stuff, motu stuff, userpages?
<Burgundavia> the udu wiki exists
<Burgundavia> lets use it
* Burgundavia curses the lack of namespace support
<Burgundavia> mediawiki has a nice feature
<Burgundavia> Burgundavia is not User:Burgundavia
<jsgotangco> yeah the namespace really organizes a lot of stuff
<Burgundavia> rejected by upstream as a hack
<Burgundavia> fools
<jsgotangco> thats why i recommended a client to use mediawiki instead for information stuff
<Burgundavia> much better for what we are trying to do
<shawarma> Why did we settle on Moin in the first place?
<Burgundavia> shawarma, we didn't choose the wiki
<Burgundavia> Ubuntu loves python and moin is python
<jsgotangco> generally, its a Python application
<Burgundavia> moin is faster than mediawiki
<shawarma> Oh, right.
<Burgundavia> media is also evil PHP
<shawarma> I forget: What were we using before?
<Burgundavia> Zwiki, more shite
<shawarma> Oh, right.
<Burgundavia> that had even less features, if that is possible
<shawarma> *G*
<mdke> Burgundavia, the udu wiki is merging with our wiki
<mdke> ditto edubuntu
<Burgundavia> seriously?
* Burgundavia cries
<mdke> yes
<mdke> mark's call
<Burgundavia> we really really need namespaces
<Burgundavia> segregate all the developer stuff to Developer:
<mdke> we could use subpages for that
<Burgundavia> can we move them all a subpage of Developers ?
<Burgundavia> or Development
<mdke> it is possible, but I have a hunch that we don't
<mdke> don't/won't
<jsgotangco> hehehe..even gentoo uses mediawiki...
<Burgundavia> yes
<Burgundavia> so does the hula-project
<jsgotangco> yeah
<Burgundavia> they are also looking into wiki<-->docbook stuff
<Burgundavia> very seriously
<jsgotangco> isnt that what Nat was pushing for?
<Burgundavia> he is working with the hula team
<Burgundavia> no idea what capacity
<Burgundavia> and the mediawiki people are willing to jump to python, if someone codes for them
<Burgundavia> they are seriously shortstaffed
<jsgotangco> i have a hula live account but it doesnt do pop
<jsgotangco> just smtp
<Burgundavia> without jumping engines, how can we solve our "too many on one wiki" issue?
<Burgundavia> can we realisitically ask all to move all the development stuff to subpages?
<mdke> IMHO, no
<mdke> i really don't think there is a need
<mdke> you can ask them to make intuitive names for pages of course
<Burgundavia> categories can help
<Burgundavia> can we have subcategories?
<Burgundavia> ie, can I move the category MOTU to be under development?
<Burgundavia> also the category archive
<jsgotangco> hmmm interesting we have a Matthew East in docteam and there's a Matthew West in the Learn Linux project :)
<jsgotangco> see you all in a few hours, i'm going to drop by the grocer first...
<Burgundavia> oh crap
<Burgundavia> stupid god damn CamelCase
<Burgundavia> should I move WithFloppies to FromFloppies, to be consistent?
<mpt> hi everyone
<Burgundavia> salut mpt
<mpt> hi Burgundavia, did anything work?
<Burgundavia> haven't tried it
<Burgundavia> my life is a total disaster right now
<mpt> http://mirrors.sourcecontrol.net/mpt@myrealbox.com/help--0/
<mpt> What's up? Anything that can be helped from outside?
<Burgundavia> about the only good news I have heard all week is that I am getting a free laptop, courtesy of your boss
<Burgundavia> yes, a job would be nice, but canonical has already said no
<mpt> heh, cool
<rob^> my local lug wants me to give a presentation on Ubunut next meeting
<mpt> What did you ask to do?
<mpt> (for Canonical)
<Burgundavia> bug traige, docs, usability
<rob^> anyone know of a good ubuntu style OOo template?
<mpt> Burgundavia: Hmm, well we have quite a few volunteers for all those things :-)
<Burgundavia> wiki.ubuntu.com/Presentations might have something
<rob^> thanks Burgundavia 
<Burgundavia> mpt, enrico used to do one day a week of wiki gardening
* mpt mirrors up
<Burgundavia> the spare time I have, I have been dumping into the wiki
<mpt> thereby disproving any claim that you need to be paid :-/
<Burgundavia> not really
<Burgundavia> if I was paid, I could do a lot more work
<mpt> trus
<mpt> true, even
<mpt> Will you have time to look at the archive before the meeting?
<Burgundavia> and the wiki does need it
<Burgundavia> sure, will look now
<mpt> thanks
<Burgundavia> the only major issue that I see right off the bat is length of the headings
<Burgundavia> yelp hides the end
<mpt> Yes, there's a lot of yelp tweaks I haven't found out how to do yet
<mpt> one of the things I want to do is hide the ToC frame
<mpt> I thought <?yelp:chunk-depth 0?> would do that, but it got ignored
<mpt> and <?yelp:chunk-depth 1?> resulted in the whole document being rendered as a single page
<jjesse> doc meeting today right?
<mpt> yep, 40 minutes
<jjesse> well if i'm not too busy at work it will be the first one i'm actually at :)
* Burgundavia grumbles about it being 6:20am here and he is listening to tango
<jjesse> bummer about it being early for you
<Burgundavia> hey, 22UTC is 7am for Jerome
<jjesse> burgundavia you are in the us?
<Burgundavia> Canada, west coast
<jjesse> ah 
<Burgundavia> jjesse, where are you?
<jjesse> Michigan US
<jjesse> so Eastern TIme zone
<Burgundavia> ok
<rob^> hey, what is the name of the guy who founded Ubuntu again?
<Burgundavia> Mark Shuttleworth
<rob^> the rich thawe dude
<Burgundavia> we need a common about Ubuntu section
<Burgundavia> that we can paste into docs
<rob^> Hes the guy who went up in space, right?
<Burgundavia> correct
<rob^> cool
<rob^> this presento is comming along..
<Burgundavia> oh, you are doing a presentation for your lug
<rob^> yeah
<Burgundavia> I did one for LinuxFestNorthWest
<Burgundavia> not bad
<rob^> they want to use Ubuntu for an installfest comming up
<rob^> on software freedom day
<Burgundavia> cool
<jjesse> OOOO
<Burgundavia> my lug still uses FC
<Burgundavia> poor bastards who get that
<rob^> so does mine
<rob^> but I convinced them otherwise
<rob^> and they wanted to know more, so yeah..
<mpt> https://shipit.ubuntulinux.org/ <-- wtf
<Burgundavia> ok then
<Burgundavia> I remember that old wiki
* rob^ gets coffee
<mpt> MEETING TIME
<mpt> Who's here?
* highvolt1ge is Jonathan Carter
* highvoltage too
<mpt> two people? :-)
<Burgundavia> the rest will come
<mpt> three people!
<mpt> Is that a quorum?
<rob^> w00t!
<Burgundavia> mpt, we meet in #ubuntu-meeting
<mpt> ah
<Burgundavia> mdke, you there?
<Burgundavia> mpt, welcome back
<rob^> so umm yeah
<jsgotangco> yeah?
<rob^> I dunno
<rob^> time for bed I think, its 130am
<Burgundavia> jsgotangco, did you do a summary for the jul 14th meeting?
<rob^> umm I don't think anyone did it did they?
<jsgotangco> hmmm i have it somewhere over here but i haven't posted it either...
<Burgundavia> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeamMeetingSummary7?action=edit
<jsgotangco> these 2 weeks are rather busy on my part
<Burgundavia> that is what it should be
<Burgundavia> I will make my summary 8
<jsgotangco> alright, ill post it later
<rob^> well that sucks, breezy broke my ssh x forwarding :(
<Burgundavia> indeed it does
<rob^> fudge it
* rob^ thinks he might have found a work around
<Burgundavia> rob^, you want to email about the yelp main page stuff as well?
<rob^> yeah, I'll do in in a while, going to get some sleep first
<Burgundavia> sure
<Burgundavia> the summary is going out in a few minutes
<rob^> good :)
<rob^> I'll refer to that
<Burgundavia> fix if you see things I left out
<Burgundavia> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeamMeetingSummary8?action=show
<rob^> man locales are so messed up in breezy atm
<rob^> night all
<mpt> ... back
<jsgotangco> ok guys later..good night
<jsgotangco> hmm
<jsgotangco> btw
<jsgotangco> baz can happen anytime
<jsgotangco> its just waiting for us
<jsgotangco> night
<mpt> So, what did I miss?
<carstenh> hi, how do i add comments in a wiki, something like /* comment */ in c++?
<jeffsch> use ## at the beginning of each comment line
<carstenh> jeffsch: and how do i comment out blocks?
<carstenh> ok, then i will use ## to comment out a block, thanks a lot
<jeffsch> i don't think you can comment out blocks :(
<carstenh> jeffsch: i used ## for this block, thanks a lot again.
* mpt finishes reading the meeting log + minutes
<mpt> https://launchpad.ubuntu.com/products/ubuntu-help
<jjesse> why can't ubuntu get their certificates setup correctly :)  sick of warnings :)
<mpt> heh
<mpt> Not just certificates, but also domain names
<mpt> Compare and contrast:
<mpt> http://udu.wiki.ubuntu.com/LaunchpadIntegration
<mpt> https://udu.wiki.ubuntu.com/LaunchpadIntegration
<jjesse> https://udu.wiki.ubuntu.com/LaunchpadIntegration doesn't exist
<mpt> it did a week ago
<mpt> the point is, they're different pages on different sites
<jjesse> that's silly
<jjesse> https://launchpad.ubuntu.com/products/ubuntu-help/+series/trunk is there a "more" cause its taking forever to loa
<jjesse> load
<mpt> nothing interesting
<mpt> it's quite embarrassing, really
<mpt> Launchpad is based around managing code in Bazaar
<mpt> but *currently*, it lets upstream developers register code that's in SVN, and code that's in CVS, but *not* code that's in Bazaar
<mpt> that'll be fixed in the next month or two
<mpt> That's why I put the URL in the description.
<jjesse> ah
#ubuntu-doc 2005-08-03
<jsgotangco> hello
<jsgotangco> venda: chill
<venda> morn jsgotangco 
<jsgotangco> venda: im not in favor of railroading either
<venda> well then say so, don't beat around the bush
<jsgotangco> (i was actually non-existant in the meeting last night because of my connection
<venda> I saw that, I read the log
<jsgotangco> badly lagged
<venda> I did not see anything on the agenda worth meeting for
<venda> the main item seemed to be about localhelp
<venda> a discussion that was not even attempted properly on the list
<venda> and which it seems is being politically forced down everyones throats
<venda> The idea is good, it's just the way they are going about it that is ticking me off
<jsgotangco> i would worry more about the content rather than the front for now
<jsgotangco> our content is almost non-existant
<jsgotangco> at the moment
<venda> eactly
<venda> if Matthew wants to write and be a help he should do so on the current objectives
<venda> smae goes for Burgundavia 
<venda> not derail current focus
<venda> rob^: has done great work
<venda> and mpt and Burgundavia can fork, but if they do then they should not defocus the teams
<jsgotangco> jeff and i are slowly builing the styleguide
<venda> and work on edubuntu is moving forward
<venda> it takes time
<venda> and focus
<jsgotangco> it does
<venda> I am very busy now and not paying attention
<venda> so I play catchup
<venda> but when I see this kind of negative political behaviour it makes me wonder
<jdub> venda: i missed the meeting too; what's the 'localhelp' stuff you're concerned about?
<venda> See launch pad
<jsgotangco> launchpad?
<venda> https://launchpad.ubuntu.com/products/ubuntu-help
<jsgotangco> oh jeezz 
<venda> I don't mind the fact that they forked FAQ Guide. That is their choice.
<venda> I even think that the idea of the outline is good
<venda> I don't think it should be outside svn
<venda> I don't think it should position itself as the defacto for ubuntu-help
<jsgotangco> faqguide? i agree
<venda> I don't think it should impact on license
<venda> I don't think it should be defocusing the docteam from DocteamProjects
<venda> There is space for localhelp and faqguide in the distro
* rob^ pokes head in
<venda> morn rob^ 
<rob^> hey venda 
<rob^> I take it you got the email?
<highvoltage> hi venda 
<jsgotangco> jdub: busy?
<jdub> this is what has been discussed for ages; the document-as-front-page thing
<jdub> jsgotangco: yeah
<jsgotangco> jdub: ok i just wanted to ask you what can you suggest on a conference presentation geared towards corporate adoption
<venda> jdub: no we have discussed that the structure should change
<venda> jdub: not  that a document will replace it
<venda> jdub: we do not see it the way mpt and Burgundavia have put it
<venda> jdub: rob^ has indicated what we have in mind and I know that most of the team agrees with that approach
<venda> jdub: I like the locahelp outline, but I don't see it as the frontpage of help in Ubuntu
<venda> jdub: localhelp is jus one more document type from which users can read to get help
<venda> jdub: localhelp should share level 1 in the help system along with faqguide, quickguide, userguide etc
<venda> jdub: not take precedence over
<venda> jdub: in addition it should be an integral part of docteam work, not an external
<venda> jdub: the license issue. GPL is not a documentation licesne
<venda> GFDL is
<venda> As for the debian argument, I fail to see how debain will use ubuntu localhelp as the default for their own help :-)
<venda> Debian just uses their own or that of upstream
<venda> such as gnome
<venda> or kde
<jsgotangco> i'd rather do upstream work for that (which i plan in the future)
<venda> jsgotangco: I sometimes think of moving upstream altogether :-)
<jdub> venda: the point of the document-as-front-page is to link to all the available documentation; but i'm not going to argue about the specifics
<jdub> jsgotangco: (it's highly likely that GNOME will shift to this style of front page in the near future)
<jdub> jsgotangco: (rather than just the ooky index)
<jsgotangco> jdub: i don't argue with that part of the front page really...yelp is what we have at the moment and the document as front page is the best workaround we currently have imo
<jdub> i wouldn't describe it as a workaround (for the front page of a help browser - there are a lot of other issues that need to be fixed that are unrelated to that)
<jsgotangco> ah
<venda> jdub: we have not agreed that help should use the outline here
<venda> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LocalHelp?highlight=%28localhelp%29
<venda> people do not agree that the outline here should be what is the front page
<venda> the number of topics in that outline is never ending
<venda> and topics are often inter-related
<jsgotangco> yeah i told them before its too long for a front page though
<venda> what they are trying too do is do a google type of categorization project
<venda> so why not just use google
<rob^> jsgotangco, yes, as have I
<venda> the solution to rapid information retrieval is not another doc. It needs a technological soclution
<jsgotangco> our current work are books in structure, but it doesn't mean they should be written like books
<venda> search and idex
<jdub> venda: you'll note that the proposal specifically raises search and index, and how it is related to the spec
<jdub> jsgotangco: right, but that has to be solved differently (and the doc that contains the front page could actually contain the non-book documentation, too)
<venda> yes, but that is ok, its just that throwing one more document at an information organization and location problem is not the solution
<venda> jdub: how long do you think that outline is going to get
<jdub> venda: perhaps not to a problem that you are making up
<venda> just off the top of my head I can add another 30 topic
<jdub> but a crafted front page is a great way to introduce the help browser
<jdub> which is the problem mpt is solving
<venda> [09:02]  <jdub> venda: perhaps not to a problem that you are making up
<venda> jdub: me and others in the team
<venda> I don't stand alone in feeling that this is not the way to go
<jdub> you didn't define the problem, you just stated that another document is not a solution
<venda> dude we have done that in th epast a few times
<jdub> the problem being solved is the not-entirely-user-worthy front page of yelp
<venda> and the last mesages have indicated what people think
<venda> jdub: you want to fix the problem then develop a proper help/documentation viewing system
<venda> jdub: don't throw another doc at it
<jdub> this solves a small problem in a simple fashion in a small amount of time
<venda> the outline of that do is going to be huge
<jdub> and regardless of the immediate problem, the help browser will need a crafted front page anyway
<venda> and who decides what does in that outline
<venda> how many cooks will keep that outline organized
<rob^> everytime we change something in one of the docs, we are going to have to check the front page to make sure we are not breaking anything
<rob^> what a pain
<venda> I give it a few months and the ouline there will be a mess
<venda> jdub: we have read and seen mpt's solution
<venda> jdub: we have given it considerable thjought
<jdub> i don't imagine all of those entries will be on it, nor do i see more being added (it specifically notes that they will be removed)
<venda> jdub: it is a start in the direction we need, but it is not the solutiuon we need
<jdub> it's a short term solution for a small problem
<venda> jdub: who will be the judge of that
<venda> jdub: an ugly hack that is not the solution, but just a bigger problem
<jdub> okay, so, tell me what the front page of a help browser would be if it were not a crafted document
<venda> jdub: what is stopping developers from improving yelp itself
<jdub> it is not stopping improvement of yelp
<venda> that was not the question
<jdub> (in fact, it's pushing it along)
<venda> why do developers not develop more on the existing yelp
<venda> why do they not change it to solve the problems
<jsgotangco> " Until then, it should contain no more than about a dozen subtopics."
<jdub> this is a change designed to solve a problem
<jsgotangco> fine with me
<venda> jdub: who decides the limits
<venda> who decides what is the toc and what is not
<jdub> we do, based on what we perceive our users need
<venda> jdub: there is not limit
<venda> jdub: we don't even know what they need
<jdub> some are usefully obvious, like "what's new in <current version>"
<jdub> that's why we think critically, hypothesise, and make changes based on feedback
<rob^> jdub, at the moment thats not whats happening
<jdub> the current list is already based on what we know of our users
<venda> jdub: hmm, and al animals are equal but some are more equal than others
<jdub> (note that i don't believe it's final)
<jdub> welcome to user-centric software design
<jdub> it's hard
<jdub> there's no system
<venda> jdub: I would suggest you ask the users?
<venda> jdub: nobody has asked them
<jdub> well, two answers to that:
<jsgotangco> *ahem* we do receive feedback on the list one way or another
<jdub> a) users won't give immediately useful answers
<venda> jdub: mpt and Burgundavia with a bit of input from some doc people have sucked their thumbs and decided for the mass
<jdub> b) what's there is inferred and analysed from existing users
<rob^> venda, thats how I see it
<jdub> right, and that's what needs to be done to move forward
<jdub> then we iterate and improve
<venda> jdub: do perform user centric design you need to advertise to users and show them what you mean and request input
<jdub> (my first thought is that the language could be clearer, which i'll have to suggest)
<jdub> well, for a start, that will happen (to a degree) as soon as it lands
<venda> jdub: I must go now. But I have said what I think, if it counts, and I think others have also indictated disatisfaction with the approach to work method and the solution being presented.
<jdub> secondly, this sort of thing can be tested without even landing the changes
<jdub> but before you do user testing, you have to design something to test
<venda> right, but with input from a design team which is not happening
<jdub> as far as i can see, mpt and corey are the design team
<jdub> and i'm sure they'll accept feedback with good rationale
<venda> jdub: they forked FAQGUide and because people did not agree
<venda> jdub: they then just forced this approach
<jdub> i don't believe that's the sum total of what this line of action means
<venda> jdub: its all in the lists and the logs
<venda> jdub: it does not have to be. But mpt and Burgundavia are very dictatorial over what happens
<venda> which is leaving people with a bad taste
<venda> defocuing the team
<venda> and fragmenting the effort
<jdub> ah yes, dictatorial bad taste
<venda> if we did not have issues we would not be discusing them'
<venda> people, other than myself, have voiced concern
<venda> and they have been brushed off
<jsgotangco> i could understand Burgundavia's case but mpt just sprang up all of a sudden
<venda> the approach at present smacks of railroading
<venda> jsgotangco: we all see Burgundavia case
<venda> jsgotangco: we even agree with him in many points
<jsgotangco> but not the methodologies
<venda> but in the sapce of two days it was bagged and balled
<venda> taken as that is the way it will be
<venda> like it or love it
<venda> argue and we will cut you off at the knees
<venda> Oh and just to make sure we will do it all outside of the current structures
<jsgotangco> yes just like the crusades...
<venda> fuck all of you is written all over this
<venda> well my day in the real world must begin
<venda> later
<jsgotangco> *whew*
<jdub> that dude has so much bile
<rob^> yes
<rob^> but there is a reason behind it
<jsgotangco> changes are good but we don't need a revolution
<rob^> jsgotangco, agreed
<jdub> sounds like everyones assuming the worst
<jsgotangco> hmm no not really
<jsgotangco> i really like to change the front page really
<rob^> as would most people
<jsgotangco> but we'd like to be "in the know" at least of what's the master plan
<rob^> but we feel like we are being forced into something we haven't discussed or agreed to
<jdub> rob^: sure, but if you assume you're being forced, you're going to argue against it, everyone's going to get emotional, and no one's going to be focusing on settling problems :)
<rob^> jdub, I would like to settle the problems, but I'd at least like some input into the settling
<jdub> "I call again for people to focus on writing the docs and ignore the noise." <- totally the wrong strategy
<jsgotangco> well its august next week and a lot of docs still needs love...
<jdub> rob^: stoffers?
<rob^> jdub, yes
<jdub> just read your mail
<jsgotangco> hmmm why did he cc mako he's on the list anyways
<rob^> he feels strongly about it
<jsgotangco>  Life at Kubuntu is much easier and not as
<jsgotangco> politically or religiously charged as ubuntu.
<jsgotangco> i hate it when he says that
<jdub> it's needlessly and purposefully divisive
<highvoltage> *sigh*
<jsgotangco> jdub: i agree
<jsgotangco> highvoltage: welcome to an ordinary day at #ubuntu-doc heh
<jsgotangco> jdub: what do you suggest for a conference Ubuntu presentation geared towards community and corporate types? Advocacy? Technology?
<jdub> you've seen my ones?
<jdub> hrm, wonder which are up now
<jdub> http://people.ubuntu.com/~jdub/2005/ubuntu-on-the-desktop/
<jdub> seen that one?
<rob^> jdub, that one is quite good, bit dated though
<rob^> well.. now anyway
* rob^ thinks he should go and eat now
<jsgotangco> jdub: i've seen those and plan to incorporate them
<jsgotangco> well mordernize it a bit
<jsgotangco> jdub: i sure wish i can still get a hold of the raw image used for the CD cover though it will help a lot with making paraphernalia...
* mdke wakes up and trawls through the flaming
<mdke> oh great
<jsgotangco> welcome mr. barrister
<mdke> this team is not a team at all
<jsgotangco> yeah we're better off with a steamroller i guess
<mdke> the crazy thing is that this sort of problem is easy to resolve
<mdke> we have two divisive factions, both of which aren't remotely interested in resolving matters through communication
<jsgotangco> please elaborate
<mdke> its up to us stuck in the middle to try
<mdke> erm
<mdke> ok elaborate
<mdke> after breakfast tho
<jsgotangco> duhh
<jsgotangco> im leaving in half an hour to try to catch up on the edubuntu meeting at 12utc
<mdke> k
<jsgotangco> mdke, let's just start Ubuntu-legal
<jsgotangco> i'll be your paralegal
<mdke> well rob^ is right that corey and matt haven't gone about this the right way, which is to look for team consensus. 
<mdke> however froud is way divisive too
<mdke> his reaction is "let's not talk about this"
<mdke> we need to figure out how to make a team here
<jsgotangco> having sane people would be a good start
<mdke> well we have some ;)
* jsgotangco lies down basking in the warmth of edubuntu
<mdke> btw can i change the subject?
<jsgotangco> sure
<mdke> launchpad group
<mdke> nice idea
<jsgotangco> heh the WIKI team had one
<jsgotangco> what the heck why cant UDP
<jsgotangco> at least i said "Project" not "Team"
<jsgotangco> heh
<mdke> however, the main purpose of a group would be ultimately to control permissions IMO, like to a baz or svn repo, i think the group should be limited to those with commit access
<mdke> just an idea
<jsgotangco> all the people in the group?
<mdke> well as i see it the whole purpose of launchpad groups is to deal with permissions to do stuff
<jsgotangco> ok you lost me
<jsgotangco> permissions to what
<mdke> ok for example
<mdke> if you want to translate in rosetta you can only make suggestions right?
<mdke> unless you are a member of the translation group for a particular language
<jsgotangco> hmmm right
<mdke> the same applies to other groups
<jsgotangco> (which reminds me i should make a translation group for ours)
<mdke> ubuntu backporters get to upload to the backport repo, ubuntu gnome team get to work on gnome projects, etc etc
<jsgotangco> mdke, assuming our work is in launchpad?
<mdke> jsgotangco, it might not be in launchpad, but it might easily one day be controlled by launchpad
<mdke> e.g. commit access is granted by accession to the group in launchpad
<mdke> i see that as the main reason for making a group
<jsgotangco> hmm but launchpad currently has only 2 access modes
<jsgotangco> member and admin
<mdke> no, no
<mdke> membership of a particular group gives certain rights
<mdke> e.g. rosetta administrators can upload po files or whatever
<jsgotangco> ah alright i think i get your idea
<mdke> bazaar developers can upload their patches
<mdke> etc etc
<mdke> MOTU can upload theirs, and close bugs or whatever
<mdke> i _think_ that is the idea
<jsgotangco> well yes by design of launchpad it makes sense
<jsgotangco> hmm
<jsgotangco> btw
<jsgotangco> i got invited to do a talk on LinuxWorld Philippines
<mdke> that's been distorted a bit recently by the creation of random reams like new user network
<mdke> reams/teams
<jsgotangco> ahhh right
<mdke> but i think that is the idea
<jsgotangco> it does make sense for uploading teams though
<jsgotangco> but then we have Ubuntu Members
<mdke> yes
<mdke> and eventually being in that team will also give certain rights
<mdke> like email addresses or whatever else
<jsgotangco> i think the email address thing will be automated in launchpad once membership for a certain person is approved
<mdke> anyway, just an idea for the future
<mdke> yep
<jsgotangco> and will let members adjust their accounts accordingly
<mdke> anyway the team is moderated so you can think about it
<jsgotangco> i can make anyone an admin if needed
<jsgotangco> it just happened i created the team
<mdke> keep just you IMHO
<jsgotangco> ok
<jsgotangco> btw
<jsgotangco> how was your ceremony
<mdke> it was ok
<mdke> i'm now a lawyer
<jsgotangco> you should have celebrated by suing someone
<jsgotangco> *joke*
<mdke> not a bad idea...
<mdke> i can't practice though for another year
<jsgotangco> why so?
<mdke> i need to do a year of training before I'm fully qualified
<jsgotangco> err doesn't make you technically unemployed as a lawyer
<jsgotangco> that
<mdke> yes
<mdke> i start my year of training in october
<mdke> ooh launchpad has timezones for members now...
<mdke> cool
<jsgotangco> yeah
<jsgotangco> hrmm
<jsgotangco> ubuntite?
<mdke> Timezone:  Europe/London
<mdke> ok i gtg
<mdke> have fun!
<jsgotangco> me too
<jsgotangco> see you later
<jsgotangco> hey jjesse
<jjesse> hiya jsgotangco
<jsgotangco> enrico: long time no chat!
<enrico> jsgotangco: eh.  at the moment I'm busy reinstalling the home sevrer
<jsgotangco> hope everything is well with you
<jjesse> why do all the ubuntu servers take so $#@$#$$ long to load web pages for me
<jsgotangco> mmm
<jsgotangco> ask elmo i guess
<jsgotangco> greets mgalvin
<mgalvin> hi jsgotangco
<mgalvin> hi all
<jjesse> hiya mgalvin
<mgalvin> hey jjesse
<mgalvin> been busy past few days... rob^ went to town on the faqguide :)
<mgalvin> rob^: kudos :)
<jjesse> hey KUDOS is the Kubuntu User Guide :)
* rob^ pokes head in
<jjesse> hiya rob^
<rob^> ping mpt
<mpt> rob^: pong
<rob^> hey
<rob^> I have been having a good look at your proposal for the yelp front page
<rob^> I think what you have there are some pretty good ideas
<mpt> cool
<mpt> I have some comments on your proposal too, but not sure where to post them
<mpt> If I put them on the wiki page itself, the comments would be larger than the original :-)
<rob^> heh
<rob^> I think the idea that help should be about "help" and less about books is a good one
<mpt> mmm
<rob^> the main problem I have is that of rail roading
<mpt> rail roading?
<rob^> not on your behalf
<rob^> but on behalf of corey
<rob^> I was recently the recipient of much of this myself and as such looked at your proposal with "cloudy eyes"
<rob^> what you have is actually pretty good
<mpt> I don't mean to jump on anyone's toes
<rob^> no
<rob^> I realise that
<mpt> Hmm, I need to rply to that "Future direction thread" :-)
<rob^> heh
<rob^> originaly the FAQ was licenced under the GPL
<rob^> the reason we have it as BY-SA and GFDL is that the original authors agreed to let us use it under that
<rob^> ubuntuguide.org that is
<rob^> I doubt they would have a problem if we wanted to also use it under the GPL 
<rob^> but yeah, group debate is needed
<rob^> well, I'm off to bed 
<rob^> night mpt, thanks for the talk
<mpt> g'night
<mdke> <3
* mdke is happy
<mpt> mdke: ?
<mdke> was worried the team love was getting at a low ebb
<mdke> glad you two are gonna get your heads together
<mpt> We're a dysfunctional family, but full of love
<mdke> heh
<mdke> like the simpsons
* mpt is surprised that "flame away I am full of love" returns only one google result
<mpt> I thought Miguel had made it famous
<mpt> ah, it's "You can now flame me, I am full of love"
<mpt> http://everything2.com/?node_id=1084835
<mgalvin> not sure if it matters much since debian will accept the by-sa lic soon anyway, but i have no objects to moving the powerpc.ubuntuguide.org content that i wrote to use GPL, we would still need chua's consent as well though
<jjesse> in regards to my email yesterday on previewing docs is there a way in Kubuntu that I can preview docs before i upload them to svn?
<mpt> yay freenode
<mpt> mgalvin: the importance of the GPL is that it lets beautifully-written help sentences be moved from the help into the actual GUI of the relevant software, vastly increasing their effectiveness.
<mgalvin> mpt: I see the light :) like i said i have no objects to using the g GPL, i am really not that picky about it and if it will make the docs more useful then +2
#ubuntu-doc 2005-08-04
<Madpilot> hi all, not a docteam member, but I've started messing around in the wiki
<Madpilot> thinking about moving some of the Apache/LAMP stuff around
<Madpilot> namely this --> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LAMPForHoary  <-- is a better page than
<Madpilot> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ApachePHPMySQL  <-- this one, but this one has a better name
<Madpilot> because LAMPForHoary will eventually have to become LAMPForBreezy
<Madpilot> thoughts?
<rob^> do what you think is best
<rob^> thats what the wiki is for :)
<Madpilot> there's always revert if someone objects too much...
<rob^> yes
<Madpilot> OK, off to edit - mostly a giant cut'n'paste job for this one
<rob^> cool
<rob^> thanks for helping out
<Madpilot> np
<rob^> Madpilot, just one suggestion though, there is a page about adding universe/muliverse to your system already - AddingRepositoriesHowto
<rob^> put a link to that page instead of explaining how to do it
<Madpilot> good point- will do
<rob^> :)
<Madpilot> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ApachePHPMySQL  <-- updated. comments & further editing welcome!
<rob^> oops you forgot to add spaces between the == and the working on Check Repositories :)
<rob^> wording*
<Madpilot> just fixed that. hit reload!
<Madpilot> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LAMPForHoary <-- also edited
<Madpilot> it really should be called "ApacheMySQLPHP" to have LAMP make sense, I guess
<rob^> heh yeah
<Madpilot> easy enough to create a 3rd page, I guess. can you delete pages?
<rob^> yes
<rob^> you could just rename the page though
<Madpilot> just found that option. renaming now.
<Madpilot> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ApacheMySQLPHP  <-- done
<Madpilot> is there a "Watch This Page" option that I've missed? Like WikiPedia has?
<rob^> yes, Subscribe
<Madpilot> are pages that have wikilinks to the old ApachePHPMySQL going to auto-redirect, or ???
<rob^> brb
<Madpilot> ?
<robitaille> ??
<Madpilot> ???
<robitaille> ????  
<Madpilot> :) sorry, just got dropped by freenode while I was away from the comp
<robitaille> same here.
<Madpilot> wasn't sure if I was reconnected
<Madpilot> so it was a system-wide thing?
<robitaille> you are from BC?
<Madpilot> ooops. the things that happen when the phone rings
<Madpilot> yeah, Victoria
<robitaille> I'm also from Victoria.
<Madpilot> small world. nice weather we're having, hey?
<robitaille> related to Corey?
<Madpilot> yeah. i'm his older brother
<robitaille> weather is nice:  just back from a week camping on Galiano.
<Madpilot> he converted me to Ubuntu about two months ago
<robitaille> So where is your brother?  HE is usually always online :)
<Madpilot> not sure. out this evening, I guess
<robitaille> I remember when he converted you.  He mentioned it one night.
<Madpilot> repeatedly, probably ;)
<robitaille> He just mentioned it once (vague recollection that beer was involved...) What's sad is that I still haven't managed to meet him in real life.
<Madpilot> are you involved in either VLUG or WEAV?
<robitaille> but we talk online nearly every day.
<robitaille> Not really involved with VLUG.  I have been to one of their meeting.
<Madpilot> haven't made a VLUG meet yet myself. not sure when the next one is.
<robitaille> August 9th: http://www.vlug.org/vlug/meetings/
<Madpilot> thnx. might go, depending on the topic, or if the three of us can get organized to actually meet face to face there!
<robitaille> I may or may not be able to go.  I have 2 sets of relatives who are visiting us that week.  I'll know closer to that date if I can go.
<Madpilot> good; I'm usually on the main ubuntu channel, sometimes here. Corey is everywhere, all at once - except tonight...
<poningru> hi guys question is there a good place in the docs/wiki/forum where I can send a kid who is familiar with win 
<poningru> but has never even heard of linux
<poningru> has many questions
<poningru> is there a place that can answer the common questions?
<rob^> http://www.ubuntulinux.org/ubuntu/
<rob^> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/GettingUbuntu
<rob^> thats about it I think
<poningru> hmm
<Madpilot> interesting thought... is there a "What the &%^$# is Linux" site somewhere?
<rob^> http://www.ubuntulinux.org/support/documentation/faq/
<rob^> no, might be a good idea for a wiki page
<Madpilot> not sure that qualifies... I'm thinking of even more basic stuff, like "how is this different from Windows" level
<poningru> there was one in wiki somewhere
<poningru> but I cant seem to find it
<poningru> whats his name was thinking of axing it
<poningru> and I was like no dont do it
<poningru> cause this is a great intro
<Madpilot> the FAQ is not good to send utter noobs to, really
<Madpilot> it's all out of order
<poningru> yeah
<Madpilot> "Obtaining Ubuntu" and "Using Ubuntu" should be the first & 2nd section
<Madpilot> put the Ubuntu detail/trivia stuff last
<Madpilot> if it were a wiki page I'd already be ripping it apart...
<Madpilot> :) do main Documentation pages like that get bug-reported in Launchpad or Ubuntu Bugzilla?
<rob^> we are fixing that :)
<Madpilot> there's still Warty-specific info in that FAQ too...
<rob^> oh, no if you want to edit that page, do so but dont make drastic changes
<rob^> discuss any major changes with the wiki team first
<Madpilot> the FAQ page isn't in the wiki
<Madpilot> gah...
<Madpilot> the FAQ page isn't in the wiki, rob, so I can't change it...
<rob^> yes
<rob^> the faq is in the svn repository
<Madpilot> the what?
<rob^> its a version control system for source code and docuements
<Madpilot> so I can edit with my Launchpad ID?
<rob^> no
<Madpilot> OK
<rob^> you can check a copy of the repository out
<rob^> and send patches to the ubuntu-doc mailing list
<poningru> hehe gotcha
<poningru> you know Madpilot I would be willing to work on that
<Madpilot> I think it needs doing - some of it is just organizing the existing FAQ better
<rob^> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocteamProjects
<Madpilot> but some of it - like a super-low-level intro "What is Linux" I'm not qualified to write!
<rob^> Madpilot, I'm the lead author of the faq
<Madpilot> well, that makes contacting the FAQ maintainer easy...
<poningru> rofl
<rob^> http://www.linuxhd.com/ubuntufaq/faqi386/C/index.html
<rob^> that is a slightly old preview of its current status
<poningru> I'd be willing to write the intro to linux things
<poningru> cause I have many friends who have questions
<poningru> and I keep logs of my convos
<poningru> from irc and aim
<Madpilot> cool, loot those for ideas. 
<rob^> the best way is to send your ideas/suggestions to the ubuntu-doc mailing list
<rob^> that way I can have a look at them :)
<Madpilot> A super-basic "Ten-word Glossary for Ubuntu & Linux" would be good.
<rob^> I'm just about to update that preview to the latest release
<rob^> umm.. draft
<poningru> whats that guys name?
<Madpilot> Def'ns of 'terminal', 'repositories', 'Synaptic', and a few others.
<poningru> corey I think
<poningru> he blogs on planet
<rob^> sorry?
<Madpilot> Corey Burger - Burgundavia
<poningru> yeah thats it
<Madpilot> (my younger brother, btw...)
<poningru> there was a list of wiki pages that he was thinking about axing
<poningru> one of which was pretty good
<poningru> about the intro
<rob^> done
<Madpilot> hmmm - remember the name of it?
<poningru> no thats the prob
<poningru> it was pretty well written too
<Madpilot> was the list in a blog entry Corey made?
<poningru> no
<poningru> he talked about it in here
<rob^> it will be in categorycleanup
<poningru> let me go see
<Madpilot> poningru: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Installation <-- this one? good, a bit messy
<poningru> no thats not it
<poningru> it was very long
<poningru> and pretty messy
<Madpilot> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LinuxFilesystemsExplained  <-- OK, messy and badly written...
<poningru> no it wasnt just a particular system or part
<poningru> it had everything
<poningru> like history
<poningru> of linux
<poningru> and gnu
<poningru> and things like explaination of where to go in the wiki
<Madpilot> OK - sounds good - can't see anything that might be it in the Cleanup list, tho
<poningru> still looking
<poningru> the list just exploded
<poningru> it was like 60 last time I checked
<poningru> or something like that
<Madpilot> i think Corey's been busy categorizing stuff...
<Madpilot> mostly into Cleanup, I think... ;)
<rob^> yeah
<rob^> pretty much
<rob^> there was a lot of stuff that needed it though
<Madpilot> yeah
<Madpilot> that draft FAQ basically looks nothing at all like the current released FAQ
<Madpilot> got it: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LinuxIntro
<Madpilot> poningru: is that it? ^^^
<poningru> hmm let me see
<poningru> doh no
<poningru> wait
<poningru> you know what I can do
<poningru> check my logs
<rob^> Madpilot, yep
<poningru> found it howcome
<poningru> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuHowCome
<poningru> searched through 3 days worth of #ubuntu-doc logs
<rob^> ouch
<rob^> I hope you greped it
<poningru> hehe
<rob^> I added a link to it on the wiki documents page, feel free to improve it!
<poningru> yep
<rob^> actually, it really needs to be made shorter, simpler
<rob^> :)
<rob^> that thing is like a whole novel
<Madpilot> "If someone ever tells you to type 'rm -rf /', DON'T DO IT"
<Madpilot> heh.
<poningru> rofl
<poningru> yeah
<poningru> but good advice
<Madpilot> it's great, but it needs major editing
<poningru> though
<rob^> yep, I've used that one on people who were bugging me before :P
<poningru> see the thing I liked on that is it reads like a friend is helping you out
<Madpilot> yeah, it's actual English, not Techlish...
<rob^> yes, but people wont read the whole thing
<rob^> each section needs to be a couple of paragraphs tops
<Madpilot> not it it's current format, no they won't. 
<Madpilot> but it can be salvaged
<robitaille> Madpilot: ever seen this article about "rm -Rf /" vs "format c:"  http://hohle.net/scrap_post.php?post=23&m=full
<rob^> I added a note to the top of it, feel free to remove it when you are done.
<poningru> we have to preserve that thing though
<poningru> is it ok if we preserve that and start a new article based on that?
<Madpilot> here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuHowComeDraft
<robitaille> ?QUIT
<Madpilot> poningru: see ^^^
<poningru> yep
<rob^> nah, there is no need to preserve it
<rob^> you can roll back changes
<Madpilot> rob^: good point, I keep forgetting wikis do that... doh...
<rob^> but if you want to redo the whole thing it might be easier if you start a new page, then merge it
<rob^> its up to you really
<rob^> I would just edit it in place
<Madpilot> I'll leave them both up for tonight and deal with it tomorrow
<rob^> ok
<Madpilot> need sleep now - having to work Saturdays bites.
<rob^> yeah
<rob^> I know the pain
<littlepaul> I wrote a small german wiki article about ubuntu-doc but i need some further details
<rob^> ok
<littlepaul> my question is: what is the relationship between the *.po files brought by rosetta and the xml files. 
<littlepaul> i mean are this gettext files automaticly merged into the xml files which some tools?
<littlepaul> enrico, did you made newer changes on docteam-tools?
<enrico> littlepaul: I haven't committed anything since a long time
<jsgotangco> errr who is claude peroz?
<rob^> ?
<jsgotangco> i got a launchpad request for ubuntu doc team
<rob^> grr why is mp3.com only allowing me to download one song at a time?
<rob^> where can I view it?
<jsgotangco> the request? only i can receive requests at the moment
<jsgotangco> i just don't remember this guy
<rob^> oh, how come?
<jsgotangco> how come what
<jsgotangco> on the requests?
<rob^> ya
<jsgotangco> because i haven't set anyone as admin yet
<rob^> oh
<rob^> what was in the request, anyway?
<jsgotangco> its just a standard launchpad request
<rob^> ah
<jsgotangc1> wretched lcd...
<jsgotangc1> it just died
<rob^> wow mp3.com really doesn't like firefox 1.0.6
<rob^> the front page, anyway
<rob^> gee, you would think mp3.com would offer mp3s, but no..
<jsgotangco> have you tried newsgroups heh
<rob^> I was after unsigned artists mainly
<jsgotangco> ahhh understandable...mp3.com used to be great on that field
<rob^> I have nicotine for the rest
<jsgotangco> until cnet bought it
<rob^> yeah, no mp3s..
<rob^> all wma
<jsgotangco> gyaahh
<Nafallo> magnatune.com, and that's all I say :-)
<rob^> should rename it wma.com
<rob^> yeah I have been
<rob^> its good, a bit broken though
<jsgotangco> nice link
<Nafallo> wfm :-)
<Nafallo> bought two albums already :-)
<jsgotangco> hmmm
<jsgotangco> err..buy?
<jsgotangco> oh you can pay as low as $5
<Nafallo> yes. for the first time in years I actually bought music :-)
<rob^> heh, with the crossfade plugin for bmp playing hifi tracks on magnatune.com is smooth
<rob^> like playing off your hd on this 512 connection
<Nafallo> hehe
* Nafallo hugs his ogg and flac versions *
<rob^> its nice that they offer those too
<jsgotangco> i should buy a player that has ogg support
<Nafallo> dist-upgrade _and_ listen to music is awesome :-)
<rob^> actually I just got thru writing a guide to bmp for the wiki
<rob^> so much better then xmms :)
<Nafallo> hmm
* Nafallo hugs his muine and totem *
<Nafallo> :-)
<rob^> holy crap. trying to apt-get muine wants to download 16.8mb of archives, including mono!
<jsgotangco> hehe
<jsgotangco> yes
<jsgotangco> because muine is a mono app
<jsgotangco> (rockin' mono app btw)
<rob^> ouch
<jsgotangco> you might as well get blam, tomboy
<jsgotangco> heck even beagle if in breezy
<Nafallo> but right now it can't download covers ;-)
<Nafallo> muine that is
<rob^> breezy, heh had another attempt at it the otherday on my testbed pc
<rob^> X is still very broken
<Nafallo> is it?
<Nafallo> it is very much working over here :-)
<rob^> nah, locales problems
<rob^> I was attempting to ssh into it and run the apps from my desktop pc
<rob^> openssh is broken too from what I hear
<rob^> I did have breezy working before they messed up X again, but heh
<rob^> its not called a testbed pc for nothing :)
<Nafallo> haven't daniels fixed the xkb-errors yet?
<Nafallo> I fixed them locally ;-)
<rob^> well that was 3 days ago
<jsgotangco> life on the edge..
<jsgotangco> heh
<Nafallo> I fixed mine more than a week ago :-)
<rob^> I tried, no luck
<Nafallo> and openssh isn't broken
<Nafallo> probably you were just missing xauth (new package)
<rob^> nah it was installed
<rob^> I set that up ok
<rob^> I was just getting locales problems when trying to ssh into it
<Nafallo> ahh
<Nafallo> haven't tried that
<rob^> and I havent bothered to try and set up the X server on it
<rob^> well, when I say ssh into it, I mean I can ssh into it, just attempting to run X programs brings those errors
<Nafallo> if I'm out of luck sometime I got my gf's hoaryified shuttle to play on ;-)
<rob^> my normal desktop PC is hoary also
<rob^> I get the disatisfaction of installing windows on my testbed pc tomorrow so my wife can do her tax
<rob^> I don't really trust wine with that :)
<rob^> holy crud, its tomorrow already 
<Nafallo> hehe
<Nafallo> 16:12 here. maybe I should eat breakfast :-P
* rob^ thinks.. coffee and another hour or bed?
<jsgotangco> coffee..bleah...drink V
<jsgotangco> hehe
<jsgotangco> or Red Bull
<jsgotangco> heh
<rob^> nah, being a shiftworker I love my coffee
<rob^> Magnatune - We Are Not Evil :)
<Nafallo> indeed :-)
<Nafallo> they are not
<rob^> yeah
<rob^> clicking "all rock hifi" give you 700 songs :D
<rob^> rock&pop that is
<jsgotangco> oh man this canada - denmark thing on a piece of rock no bigger than a football field is making me laugh
<jsgotangco> this is nothing compared to the spratleys hehe
<jsgotangco> good night
#ubuntu-doc 2005-08-05
<jsgotangco> Burgundavia: I agree with you wholeheartedly
<jsgotangco> hi
<Madpilot> ?
<robitaille> ??
<robitaille> :)
<Madpilot> anyone here?
<highvoltage> i'm sure there is
<highvoltage> it's sunday morning, so most ppl are probably asleep
<Madpilot> you know, I had no idea how late it was - almost 0200 here. heh...
<highvoltage> heh. is that us western time?
<Madpilot> Pacific Daylight
<highvoltage> wow. time is complicated in the usa.
<highvoltage> in south africa we just have one time, and it stays the same. always.
<Madpilot> perhaps - except that I'm in Canada... ;)
<Madpilot> RSA doesn't use daylight savings?
<highvoltage> nope.
<highvoltage> we don't really need it. we have enough daylight throughout the year :)
<Madpilot> we need to save it, this far north!
<highvoltage> in the summer, the sun comes up at 6, sets at 20:00, in the winter, it comes up at 7:00, sets at 19:00
<highvoltage> yeah
<Madpilot> winter, here: up @ 0800, down before 1700 at worst. summer, up before 0600 and down past 2100
<Madpilot> 49 degrees North does that... ;)
<highvoltage> i'm sure george bush will fund a project to change the virtual tilt of the earth :)
<Madpilot> he's just dumb enough. Canadian politicians are (slightly) more intelligent...
<highvoltage> true.
<Burgundavia> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/AptAuthenticationInstructionsForHoary
<Burgundavia> what should I do with it?
<highvoltage> Burgundavia, Madpilot: are you related?
<Burgundavia> highvoltage, Madpilot is my old brother
<Burgundavia> I converted him to Ubuntu after his XP died
<highvoltage> that's cool.
<poningru> hehe
<poningru> how old apart are you guys?
<Madpilot> four years
<poningru> oh I thought it would be bigger diff,  Burgundavia highvoltage, Madpilot is my old brother
<Madpilot> heh. Burgundavia can't type worth a d*mn - that should be "older"...
<poningru> oh
<poningru> gotcha
<poningru> doh should have realized that
<Burgundavia> ya ya
* Madpilot predicts that Burgundavia's next post here will contain at least one typo
<Burgundavia> asdflkjasdfhpoiasdf
<Madpilot> did you type that with your forehead?
<highvoltage> qwerty! aaah!
<Burgundavia> nope
<Burgundavia> did it with me hands!
<poningru> dvorak?
<poningru> ah
<highvoltage> poningru: i use qwerty too, been wanting to switch for the longest time, but can't afford it.
<poningru> hehe too true
<Burgundavia> huh? https://wiki.ubuntu.com/TechnologyChoices
<Madpilot> what's that page *for*?
<highvoltage> hmmm.. good question. i can kinda see what they tried to do.
<highvoltage> i wonder what "conforming programs" and non-conforming programs are.
<Burgundavia> I like the term "no useful content"
<Burgundavia> it is so broad
<highvoltage> oh, there it's gone :)
<Madpilot> have you already killed that page?
<Burgundavia> yes
<highvoltage> i wish people would log on when they edit pages, at least you can contact them if you need to find out why they created it.
<Burgundavia> they must
<Burgundavia> the adsl stuff is the wiki auto importer
<highvoltage> that page was edited by an adsl-someting-something, was that a username?
<highvoltage> aaaaah
<highvoltage> imported from where?
<Burgundavia> the old wiki
<poningru> question
<poningru> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/OpenOffice2Beta
<poningru> why is that like that?
<poningru> shouldnt we just say just update when the rep updates
<Madpilot> OO2 is in the repos anyway
<Madpilot> I keep meaning to install it to try it out
<poningru> its good
<poningru> oh btw I am talking about that scritp
<poningru> sigh script
<Madpilot> I assume that script gets the very, very latest crack of OOo2, instead of whatever is in the repos?
<Burgundavia> the breezy repos have the newest crack
<Burgundavia> just needs a backport
<Burgundavia> along with about a whole sh*tload of java
<Madpilot> hmmm. maybe just ditch the script in favour of info on adding the breezy repos to hoary?
<Burgundavia> no
<Madpilot> or should that all just go into BreakMyUbuntu?
<Burgundavia> tell the person to use hoary-backports
<Burgundavia> s/tell the person/edit the page to say
<Madpilot> that's even simpler
<poningru> yeah
<poningru> thats what I was thinking of
<poningru> do we use user pages?
<Burgundavia> what do you mean?
<poningru> cause I just wanted to add articles to do list to my page
<poningru> like wikipedia has user pages
<poningru> which allow a user to keep his/her own page
<Madpilot> you can subscribe to a page, i know
<poningru> hmm
<Madpilot> and your subscribed articles are listed on your User Prefs page
<highvoltage> where would you download OOo2MenuItems.tar.gz? it doesn't say that in the howto.
<Burgundavia> hoary backports is the way to go for that page
<Madpilot> here's more info: http://www.ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=30866&page=1&pp=10
<Burgundavia> seb payne is that 16 year old I was telling you about, Madpilot 
<Madpilot> here: http://www.evolutioncolt.com/mainweb/?q=node/11
<Madpilot> that's what the wiki page is based on I think - the Ubuntu forum link is dead
<poningru> ooh when did canonical change their website
<poningru> pretty
<Burgundavia> looks very similar to the ubuntu one, so I assume the same time
<poningru> looks different to me
<Burgundavia> same css, different colours
<poningru> anywhere I can find the ubuntu history page?
<poningru> ah true
<Madpilot> css makes that sort of trick so *easy*, it's great
<poningru> hehe so true
<rob^> hey, what wiki package do we use?
<Burgundavia> history page?
<Burgundavia> rob^, moinmoin
<rob^> Burgundavia, ah ok
<rob^> thanks
<Madpilot> just added this: http://linuxcommand.org/  to the UserDocumentation page, right down at the bottom
<Madpilot> with "other resources"
<Madpilot> hmmm... Totem doesn't have a wiki page at all...
<Burgundavia> no
<Madpilot> likewise XPDF, even if it does bite
<Burgundavia> xpdf is crap
<Burgundavia> talk about evince
<Burgundavia> and anyway, wikipages should probably be mostly tasked based
<Madpilot> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UserDocumentation  <-- there's a whole raft of links here to app-specific pages
<Burgundavia> yes
<Madpilot> but many of them aren't the default apps anyway, AFAIK
<Burgundavia> indeed
<Burgundavia> we need to promote existing applications and soutions
<Burgundavia> the bittorrent page could use some love
<poningru> hehe please dont decide on azureus for that
<Madpilot> I know zip about BT, wouldn't know where to start
<Burgundavia> pretty easy
<Burgundavia> you click on the link and it happens
<poningru> rofl
<Madpilot> funny guy. I don't use FF, remember?
<Burgundavia> we need slightly more featureful application
<Burgundavia> sorry, we don't support Opera
<Madpilot> slightly more what?
<poningru> Madpilot: what do you use?
<Madpilot> Opera
<poningru> wow
<Burgundavia> currently, it is one link to one window
<poningru> erhm sorry didnt mean anything by it
<Burgundavia> would be nice to bring it into one window
<Madpilot> Burgundavia: I really don't know what you're talking about...
<Burgundavia> basically each bittorrent you have open is a seperate window and seperate app
<Burgundavia> makes it difficult to store stuff over a reboot, because you have to remember where you put it
<poningru> thats true
<poningru> linux really doesnt have any good bt clients
<Madpilot> that's with GNOME torrents?
<poningru> well there is azureus
<Burgundavia> I saw a mockup that someone posted a while ago
<Burgundavia> azureus is waaay too many buttons
<poningru> but its pretty resource hogish
<poningru> yeah
<poningru> what I like is ABC
<poningru> but their linux release is limited to the 6 month old release
<Burgundavia> ouch
<poningru> its limited to just the good features
<poningru> yeah
<poningru> my sis using win loves it
<poningru> I love it too
<poningru> but too bad I cant use it
<Burgundavia> night all!
<poningru> do we have a basic glossary page?
<Madpilot> no idea. if not, we need one.
<poningru> yeah
<poningru> how long ago was this wiki started?
<Madpilot> no idea there either
<Madpilot> searchig "Glossary" got me no hits except an italian page
<poningru> hmm yeah
<poningru> gaah I have to go run
<poningru> talk to you later dude
<Madpilot> later
<Kinnison> hey burgey
<Burgundavia> salut Kinnison 
* Burgundavia is getting a lappy!
<Kinnison> wooyay
<Burgundavia> what about you? what is new in lp land
* Kinnison grins. Lots of specs written. Check out the LP wiki
<Burgundavia> cool
#ubuntu-doc 2005-08-06
<Madpilot> anyone around?
<robitaille> yes.
<Madpilot> have you been following the UbuntuHowCome editing?
<Madpilot> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuHowCome  <-- current giant mess
<Madpilot> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuHowComeDraft <-- draft mostly by rob^ & I
<robitaille> I haven't been following that story since I have been back from vacation.
* robitaille spends too much time cleaning up Malone these days
<Madpilot> heh. Have a good vacation?
<Madpilot> rob^ and a couple of us were talking here about a "total noob's intro to Linux" page
<robitaille> yeah...one week away from computers on Galiano island.
<Madpilot> and we decided that we could get some use out of the HowCome page if we re-spec'd it
<Madpilot> cool... I like the Gulf Islands
<robitaille> I would drop the reference to the comp.os.minix posting from Linus.  Doen't bring anything to the document...and most new user probably don't care to know anything about the history of Linux from 14 years ago.
<robitaille> add a couple of lines about open/free software?  That's an important bit to the Linux world that may be not known to new users coming from Windows
<Madpilot> a few lines on FLOSS would be good. I'm also going to add a link to Ubuntu's Glossary (I wish that was a wiki page rather than a Docs page, though...)
<Burgundavia> a link to the DFSG and/or the OSI may also be good
<Madpilot> the who and what where? ;)
<Burgundavia> Debian Free Software Guidelines and the Open Source Defintion
<Burgundavia> basically what makes a license free
<Madpilot> give me URLs - I'm editing the Draft page as we speak...
<Burgundavia> http://www.debian.org/social_contract#guidelines
<Burgundavia> http://www.opensource.org/docs/definition.php
<Burgundavia> well, I am glad I don't have my irc client in my webbrowser
<Burgundavia> bloody ff
<Madpilot> just fell over, did it?
<robitaille> which ff? breezy?
<Burgundavia> yes
<Burgundavia> might be a cairo issue
<Burgundavia> seems to cause apps to randomly die
* robitaille been running mozilla.org's ff 1.0.6 since the update problems from a couple of weeks ago.  
<robitaille> but that's under Hoary. 
<Madpilot> if Opera had crashed on me, you might not have even noticed - the recovery is pretty seamless for IRC
<Madpilot> OK, see the current draft: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuHowComeDraft  <-- just added the OSI & DFSG stuff, but someone needs to write a better piece of copy around them...
<Burgundavia> boy I love changing the volume with the mouse scroll wheel
<Madpilot> you know that works even without clicking on the volume applet first?
<Burgundavia> yes
<Burgundavia> that is what I am talking about
<Madpilot> ah, OK.
<Madpilot> any opinion on the OSI/DFSG stuff I added to Draft?
<Madpilot> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuHowComeDraft
<Burgundavia> a bit to flip
<Burgundavia> s/to/too
<Madpilot> it's short and needs someone who knows what their talking about to fill it in.
<Burgundavia> ok
<Madpilot> I tend to get sarcastic when I'm making stuff up on the fly 
<Madpilot> you should see some of the placeholder copy on Dad's website
<Burgundavia> to be honest UbuntuHowCome is not really on my radar of things that really need to be fixed
<Madpilot> we need a "What the $%*& is Linux" page
<Burgundavia> we also need to make the pages after they get @#$@-ing Linux to be good, so they don't go back to @#$!-ing Windows
<Madpilot> well, yes.
<Madpilot> but we were talking here about really, really low-level pages. 
<Madpilot> "what is Linux" is about as low level as you can get
<Burgundavia> where does ubotu keep all of its sayings?
<Madpilot> just a sec
<Madpilot> got the msg from ubotu?
<Burgundavia> cheers
<Madpilot> np
<Burgundavia> looking at this sound stuff
<Burgundavia> going to need to get a default hoary install and lay
<Burgundavia> d/lay/play
<Madpilot> dual boot time - or triple, if you still want to mess with Warty
<Burgundavia> I need a default install of all the supported distros, I can see
<Madpilot> then you need to resist the temptation to tweak, install crap & fiddle...
<Burgundavia> not hard
<Burgundavia> not using the systems day to day
<robitaille> I gave up on warty...but still triple-boot nearly on a daily basis (win98/Hoary/Breezy)
<Madpilot> when you get the lappy, you could do a massive # of installs on that - XP/Warty/Hoary/Breezy
<Burgundavia> yes
* Burgundavia is soon going to babysit a windows install, something he is not looking forward to
<robitaille> it's in the contract :)
<Madpilot> that would leave your desktop free to do actual work on...
<Burgundavia> http://linux.blogweb.de/archives/70-Michael-Lynns-Presentation.html
<Burgundavia> willing to mirror that doc, Madpilot ?
<Madpilot> you're getting a free, high-end lappy in exchange for babysitting the thing. stop whining
<Burgundavia> I am not whining
<Madpilot> you mean at warbard? what is it?
<poningru> hey guys
<Burgundavia> a document that Cisco and ISS don't want to get out
<Madpilot> is hosting it likely to get my sorry arse sued?
<Burgundavia> no
<poningru> Burgundavia: I am finding more people to host that
<poningru> possibly freeculture.org
<poningru> but no promises
<Burgundavia> I just like the idea of access to that kind of information
<Burgundavia> poningru, how familiar are you with the sound stuff?
<poningru> sound stuff?
<poningru> alsa, esd et al?
<poningru> not much
<poningru> why?
<Burgundavia> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DebuggingSoundProblems?highlight=%28sound%29
<Burgundavia> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SoundProblemsHoary?highlight=%28sound%29
<Burgundavia> expand the cleanup
<poningru> hmm ok
<Burgundavia> I know nothing about it
<Madpilot> Burgundavia: http://www.warbard.ca/temp/lynn-cisco.pdf  <-- feel free to give this out as needed
<Burgundavia> ok
<Madpilot> the directory /temp on my domain is robot.txt-protected - it never gets spidered
<Burgundavia> can I blog about it?
<Madpilot> go ahead. I've got heaps of bandwidth that I never use
<Madpilot> there's nothing else in /temp right now anyway - it's my test directory, but these days I can do most testing right on my own machine
<poningru> ok lots of people are gonna mirror that
<robitaille> Madpilot: you have a typo on your main web page: "Ununtu Linux"
<Madpilot> robitaille: nice catch. fixing it now.
<poningru> oy thats a mess
<Burgundavia> the sound stuff?
<Burgundavia> part of project also involves fixing the ubotu stuff
<Madpilot> fixed the typo. caught screem trying to eat my index page. odd.
<poningru> Burgundavia: I have the necessary skills to fix that
<poningru> err I dont
<Burgundavia> ok
<Burgundavia> np
<poningru> sorry
<Burgundavia> hey, nor do I
<poningru> is there a docs mailing list?
<Burgundavia> nothing to be sorry about
<Burgundavia> yes
<Burgundavia> ubuntu-doc@lists.ubuntu.com
<poningru> hmm maybe I should sign up
<Burgundavia> we are currently arguing over a new yelp main page and the licenses
<poningru> ooh I want in
<poningru> how do I sign up?
<robitaille> http://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-doc
<poningru> thanks
<Burgundavia> poningru, where do you live?
<Madpilot> just signed up there...
<poningru> tampa fl
<poningru> florida
<Burgundavia> ok
<poningru> but go to school at Uni of Florida
<poningru> Gainesville
<Burgundavia> fun, more timezones to deal with
<poningru> hehe
<Burgundavia> we already have +10, 0, and -7
<poningru> I am -5
<robitaille> which reminds me...I should probably go to bed soon :)
<poningru> hehe cya dude
<Burgundavia> indeed
<Burgundavia> poningru, robitaille and I live in the same city, yet have no met each other yet
<Burgundavia> s/no/not
<Madpilot> meh... tomorrow is a holiday in BC, remember?
<robitaille> youngs kids don't know the concept of holidays and sleeping in :)
<Burgundavia> the reason not to have kids
<robitaille> and I have wasted way too much time working on Malone tonight
<poningru> where do you guys live?
<poningru> how old are you guys?
<Burgundavia> robitaille, myself and Madpilot live in Victoria BC
<Burgundavia> I am 22, my brother Madpilot is 26
<Burgundavia> robitaille is old
<poningru> hehe
<robitaille> kids :)   (I'm 35)
* poningru is 20
<Burgundavia> what are you taking at uni?
<poningru> pre-med
<Burgundavia> ah
<Burgundavia> what brought you to Ubuntu?
<poningru> a little of everything
<poningru> basically I was looking to get involved in a linux distro project
<poningru> that was userfriendly
<poningru> but everything like suse, FC and others
<poningru> were a little too buisnessy
<poningru> so looked around
<poningru> and ubuntu was perfect
<Burgundavia> ah
<Burgundavia> had you used linux before?
<poningru> yeah
<poningru> I had used debian and suse
* jsgotangco is getting dizzy after reading those emails...
<Burgundavia> jsgotangco, I don't understand the tone
<jsgotangco> of what?
<Burgundavia> the recent list stuff
<jsgotangco> i dont get you
<jsgotangco> you mean my reply to the email of mpt and sean
<Burgundavia> no
<Burgundavia> the tone of other people
<Burgundavia> mostly sean
<jsgotangco> you know sean, he gets really pissed when things rock all of a sudden without that much consultation
<Burgundavia> yes
<Burgundavia> NicholasRetallack <-- who is this person?
<jsgotangco> then again, this would not have happened if we did made specs early on
<jsgotangco> no idea
<Burgundavia> indeed
<jsgotangco> do you know Calude Paroz?
<Burgundavia> he did some nice edits ont he wiki
<Burgundavia> no
<jsgotangco> hmm
<jsgotangco> i mean Claude
<Burgundavia> why do you ask?
<jsgotangco> i have a launchpad request from him for docteam
<jsgotangco> perhaps this is a translator
<jsgotangco> hmmm is Brian Burger any relation to you
<Burgundavia> yes, my older brother
<jsgotangco> ahh he just subscribed to the list
<Burgundavia> no wiki edits by anyone named Claude
<Burgundavia> nothing on the list in the last few months by a claude
<jsgotangco> hmmm ok deferred
<jsgotangco> will ask mdke
<Burgundavia> something on RosettaWishlist by a Claude
<Burgundavia> two things
<Burgundavia> can I search lp for claude?
<jsgotangco> yes he's in lp in french translators
<Burgundavia> ok
<jsgotangco> he doesn't have a wiki page though
<jsgotangco> Burgundavia: the wiki page you sent on UbuntPresentation is good this is actually a real guide compared to what we currently have for ubuntu
<jsgotangco> I did make some adjustments for Kubuntu by adding something similar, but not that comprehensive
<Burgundavia> the UbuntuPresentation one was just something I bumped into editing the wiki
<jsgotangco> nevertheless, i believe a quick guide is about doing common tasks quickly
<Burgundavia> yes
<jsgotangco> the current quick guide is more a quick tour
<Burgundavia> so the guide needs to have its name changed
<Burgundavia> mandrake calls it a quick tour
<jsgotangco> ahh
<jsgotangco> its really a tour in the first place, as indicated in the introductory text
<Burgundavia> the coc signing thing is pretty cool
<jsgotangco> hmm?
<jsgotangco> lp?
<Burgundavia> yes
<jsgotangco> i havent tried signing the coc on lp
<Burgundavia> just did it
<Burgundavia> told them about my key
<Burgundavia> verified that and then signed the coco
<jsgotangco> hmm
<jsgotangco> king fahd died
<Burgundavia> yes
<Burgundavia> http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/4734415.stm
<Burgundavia> rofl
<Burgundavia> check planet.ubuntu after you read that
<Madpilot> Burgundavia: now we get to watch my server logs go berserk...
<Burgundavia> probably not
<Madpilot> ah well, I've never used more than a fraction of the bandwidth I pay for in any case...
<Burgundavia> https://launchpad.ubuntu.com/people/cburger/
<Burgundavia> that is pretty cool
<Madpilot> you finally got that thing signed?
<Burgundavia> and I learned today that there a DD somewhere up the island
<Madpilot> a what?
<Burgundavia> Debian Developer
<Burgundavia> signing his key and him signing yours connects us to the strongly connected set
<Burgundavia> http://www.khensu.org/index.php?itemid=115
<jsgotangco> yeah
<Madpilot> oh boy - check this typo out: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4734175.stm
<poningru> Burgundavia: looks like my friends name has made it into stephans blog
<poningru> and his mirror site
<Burgundavia> Madpilot, why typo?
<Burgundavia> which
<Madpilot> look in the little "summary box" on the right - it has "insert fact here" about 2/3rds of the way down
<Burgundavia> yes
<Burgundavia> just noticed that
<Burgundavia> where is my edit button?
<jsgotangco> hmm plaxo looks evil
<Burgundavia> indeed
<Burgundavia> my comment from -motu --> that plaxo stuff is evil. My attitude towards non-free stuff is gradually hardening
<jsgotangco> and jorge seems to like it
<jsgotangco> heh
<jsgotangco> i've read about this plaxo thing sometime ago
<jsgotangco> brb
<mdke> hi all
<poningru> woah
<mdke> anyone know who TreyEarl is?
* mdke growls at more incorrect deletion of pages on the wiki
<mdke> burgundavia really should know better by now
<robitaille> Burgundavia gets VERY eager sometimes to clean thing up :)
<robitaille> a bit too much maybe...
<mpt> ooh, that reminds me, I renamed a page without setting up a redirect
<mdke> mpt, if you go to the old page name and click the title, it will show you the broken links
<mdke> you can fix them instead of doing a redirect
<mdke> robitaille, there are broken links all over the wiki because corey deletes pages without thinking
<mdke> e.g. https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Java?action=fullsearch&value=linkto%3A%22Java%22&context=180
<mdke> :/
<mdke> we've discussed it loads of times, and he always says "yeah, ok"
<robitaille> he deleted "Java"?
<mdke> yes
<robitaille> sigh....that was a big one.  It is used all the time on #ubuntu to point users to how to install Java
<mdke> yep
<mdke> corey is doing good work on the wiki, but he is soooo impetuous
<robitaille> so where is the Java stuff....
<mdke> dunno
<robitaille> and I guess  Java/talk should be deleted....
<mpt> mdke: Several of those broken links are in mailing list archives and other sites
<mdke> i reckon he deleted Java by accidents
<mdke> accident*
<mdke> although its pretty difficult to delete a page by accident ;)
<mdke> mpt, ah i c
<robitaille> I don't think so.  it seems he merged its content into RestrictedFormats
<mdke> robitaille, the deletion message is a bit odd, doesn't sound much like he was deleting it
<mdke> dunno
<lunitik> Someone check out changes to RestrictedFormats ... trying to clean it up... other than seperating out the gplflash stuff... what else can be done... still looks a mess  :(
<mdke> hi lunitik 
<mdke> there has been a discussion about that on the docteam mailing list over the last couple of days
<mdke> have you seen it?
<lunitik> Ahh... no... public archive for what I missed?
<mpt> In Hoary, gplflash doesn't do anything for me except consume vast amounts of memory to display black screens
<mdke> lunitik, http://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-doc/2005-July/003134.html
<lunitik> Seperated out JavaAMD64 to its own page... think gplflash is too technical for that page... new one would be better I think... then maybe an iTunes page for everything AAC...
<lunitik> Thanks
<lunitik> Ahh... basic stuff should stay... things that have to be explained should go to seperate pages imo
<lunitik> like 'type this' stuff... thats basic enough... for the gplflash stuff overwhelms maybe
<mdke> lunitik, are you TreyEarl?
<lunitik> mdke, yup
<lunitik> I didn't use the preveiw button well though  ;)
<mdke> lunitik, you must not delete pages without checking the backlinks first, please!
<mdke> robitaille, maybe the Java page was renamed to something else rather than deleted
<lunitik> Ahh, ok... just is not useful due to backports... what did it link to?
<lunitik> mdke, yes... JavaAMD64... java is now on RestrictedFormats... tells to install 'sun-j2re1.5'
<lunitik> (from extras)
<mdke> lunitik, you deleted this page: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/AddingCodecsToTotemHowTo
<lunitik> mdke, yes... because w32codecs takes care of it
<mdke> when you delete a page, the links to it over the wiki break
<lunitik> What linked to it? I saw no links...
<mdke> three pages linked to it
<mdke> you can see them here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/AddingCodecsToTotemHowTo
<lunitik> I can search around for it... its better they link to RestrictedFormats
<mdke> sorry
<mdke> i mean here:
<mdke> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/AddingCodecsToTotemHowTo?action=fullsearch&value=linkto%3A%22AddingCodecsToTotemHowTo%22&context=180
<mdke> lunitik, when you want to delete pages, you MUST fix all links first
<mdke> the best solution is not to delete them at all
<mdke> because often they are linked outside the wiki on mailing lists and forums etc
<lunitik> mdke, ahh... I left to go clean up my mess... linking to RestrictedFormats instead of that... most know of RestrictedFormats anyways... unlikely its used elsewhere imo... but anyways... more on cleaning up...
<lunitik> mdke, you think its a good idea to move gplflash info to another page, also, Music store info and AAC doesn't seem appropriate (although the codec info can stay...)
<mdke> the java entry on RestrictedFormats is also wrong
<mdke> as robitaille has pointed out on the mailing list
<lunitik> no its not... I installed from it today
<lunitik> it set up a plugin and everything... java is fine here.
<mdke> lunitik, the package is not present in the Ubuntu repositories
<lunitik> No, its not... but then, neither is w32codecs
<robitaille> put you need to point that to users
<lunitik> I was under the impression that ubuntu-backports was official?
<mdke> lunitik, therefore, the section on java in RestrictedFormats is wrong
<lunitik> The page even lists the repo
<mdke> the java section does not
<lunitik> (its where I found it)
<lunitik> mdke, I can add that its in Extras?
<mdke> i thought that our policy for RestrictedFormats was to avoid mention of hoary-extras
<mdke> but maybe not
<robitaille> personally i think RestrictedFormats should simply point to a Java page.  And in the Java page have the 1-2 paragraph how-to, a one sentence thing about free alternatives, and links to the other Java pages in the wiki for other architecture and other javas (IBMJava for example). didn't it used to be that way 2-3 weeks ago?
<lunitik> I didn't put the hoary-extras part in... who did?
<lunitik> robitaille, if we are allowed to mention backports (which is official), then for x86 users, we can just have them install a package... would be better to have a java on other archs page or so though
<lunitik> (as apposed to 2 currently)
<lunitik> iTunes Music Store, RealPlayer, and gplflash sections need sorting out... what should I do?
<lunitik> They should really be out the way someplace... w32codecs offers RealAudio and Video codecs, gplflash is too technical, and Music Store is almost like advertising (this page is visited A LOT!)
<mdke> lunitik, hoary-extras is not official. hoary-backports is an official repository
<lunitik> Official Repository ---- that we can't use?
<lunitik> I didn't edit anything to do with extras... I've been away for 2 months (in jail)
<robitaille> lunitik: have you talked to Burgundavia?  My recollection is that he is the one who added most of that stuff you are asking about (music store, realplayer, etc)
<lunitik> robitaille, is he around?
<mdke> lunitik, he's not here right now
<lunitik> He monitors wiki changes? I can do it now while I'm motivates, and he can say ok or nay later?
<robitaille> I just saying that maybe you should talk to him first.  He was doing major rewrites of that page, and it seems you want to do the same.  It would be better if you are both on the same page.  I expect he will be up in the next couple of hours.
<lunitik> robitaille, that works... I'll likely be around...
<mdke> lunitik, best thing is to contribute to the thread on the team mailing list
<lunitik> Seems easier to read now... Java, MP3, and W32Codecs are at the top, all easy to skim... then DVD (more reading), then Flash (gplflash makes it technical), then AAC cuz its a lot of reading, then RealPlayer because only people that will read it are people that don't want Totem (which is prefered)... hopefully its a little cleaner now... still want to talk about moving RealPlayer and Music Store things away, also gplflash... but thats wher
<lunitik> e at for further discussion...
<lunitik> (so basically, things to discuss are at the bottem, things that are ok at top  :D
<lunitik> )
<lunitik> (I'd send to mailing list, but I have no idea how to make it send to a thread thats already started prior to signing up...
<mpt> mgalvin: ping
<mpt> mdke: ping
<mgalvin> mpt: ping
<mpt> mgalvin: Hi, I have a couple of questions for you
* mgalvin swears at legacy integration code
<mpt> First, how does one apply for XVN commit access?
<mgalvin> sure whats up
<mpt> er, SVN
<jjesse> svn access is given out through enrico i think
<mgalvin> submit a few patches to the mailing list and someone with svn access will apply them, after commiting a few and if all looks good you get svn access
<mpt> ok
<mpt> mgalvin: Second question: Would you be willing to license your contributions to the FAQ Guide under the GPL, in addition to the existing licenses?
<mgalvin> sure
<mpt> mgalvin: Great! Would you mind e-mailing me (or maybe the ubuntu-doc mailing list would be better) a message to that effect?
<mgalvin> i had mentioned my approval of using GPL in that long thread, but sure, i'll send a seperate message to the list about it
<mpt> thanks mgalvin
<mgalvin> sent
<mgalvin> mpt: hehe, maybe i should use my middle name to futher confuse people, one guess as to what my middle name is ;)
<mpt> oh dear
* mpt proposes renaming the Ubuntu Documentation Team to the Ubuntu Matthew Team
<mgalvin> :)
<mpt> ah, crud, my mailbox just filled up
<mpt> mgalvin: Have you had time to have a look at Bazaar?
<mgalvin> mpt: not really
<mpt> Now that I have the instructions sorted out, it should take about ten minutes to get going
<mgalvin> mpt: instructions on moving to bazzar?
<mpt> mgalvin: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuHelp
<mpt> hi Burgundavia
<Burgundavia> hey
<mdke> mpt, pong?
<mpt> mdke: Sorry, I should have unponged, mgalvin already answered my question
<mpt> er, depinged, I mean
<mdke> cooll
<Burgundavia> mdke, what is this about the java page being deleted?
<mdke> Burgundavia, you deleted it dude
<Burgundavia> mdke, no I didn't
<mdke> RecentChanges says you did. You probably renamed it, but it's the same thing
<mdke> Java 17h 14m ago Info CoreyBurger2 the term is amd64, not x86_64 and categorized
<Burgundavia> huh
<Burgundavia> that is very very odd
<Burgundavia> I edited it, ala the summary
<Burgundavia> I am very very certain that I didn't delete it
<mdke> you must have renamed or deleted it by accident or something
<Burgundavia> nope
<Burgundavia> dude, I am deleting old and redundant pages, not useful ones like Java
<mdke> maybe you did it by accident
<Burgundavia> extremely unlikely
<Burgundavia> the delete button is quite hidden
<Burgundavia> anyway, how do I restore it?
<mdke> not easily
<mdke> normally the old page would have a diff
<mdke> but in this case it seems that it does not
<mdke> Java?action=info
<mdke> the only thing I can think of is to ask henrik if he can have a look for the physical page on the filesystem
<Burgundavia> I remember looking at the page and seeing the x86_64 stuff and editing it for that
<mdke> sure you didn't rename it?
<mpt> what was the page called?
<mdke> mpt, Java
<Burgundavia> absolutely certain
<Burgundavia> what reason is there to rename it?
<mdke> i dunno
<mdke> Burgundavia, give your password to anyone?
<Burgundavia> nope
<mdke> leave your computer unattended?
<mpt> A one-word title wouldn't autolinkify :-)
<Burgundavia> yes, but there was no one here during that timeframe
<Burgundavia> and the summary is one I wrote
* mdke shrugs
<mdke> its really odd because there is no revision history
<mdke> maybe it is a random bug or data error or something
<Burgundavia> might this be a moin bug?
<mpt> What did the page contain?
<mpt> (I've never seen it)
<mdke> i think it was quite short actually
<Burgundavia> a quite nice tutorial on doing java
<mdke> Burgundavia, robitaille thought it might have been merged into the section on RestrictedFormats
<mpt> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/AddingJavaSupport :-/
<Burgundavia> mdke, possible
<mpt> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Java/talk still exists
<Burgundavia> yes
<mpt> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Java15
<Burgundavia> those talk pages are relics on the migration
<mdke> yeah
<Burgundavia> the 15 page is an old versin
<mdke> we decided to use those talk pages because in some cases the lists of subpages was useful.
<Burgundavia> shall I recreate java with the info from restrictedformats?
<mdke> nice email by jeffsch
<mdke> Burgundavia, is the info in RestrictedF the correct info?
<Burgundavia> yes
<mdke> then yeah I guess so :)
<Burgundavia> ok
<mdke> i like the idea of having RestrictedFormats as an index
<Burgundavia> with subpages?
<Burgundavia> ala BinaryDriverHowto?
<mdke> hmm
<Burgundavia> that binary driver one makes searching for "ati driver" actually come up with some thing
<mdke> i don't know much about subpages
<Burgundavia> look at what I did with installation
<mdke> yeah i see em
<mdke> i would avoid it for this
<mdke> plus, its best not to change urls for things like Java
<Burgundavia> that is why the page gets left in place
<Burgundavia> you can still link to BinaryDriverHowto
<mdke> just have links in RestrictedFormats pointing to Java, etc
<Burgundavia> yes
<mdke> i don't really see the advantage in using subpages for those things, although for Installation it kinda makes sense
<Burgundavia> restrictedformats is quite long and unwieldy
<mdke> i agree in farming it out to shorter pages, just not necessarily subpages
<Burgundavia> why not subpages?
<mdke> why subpages?
<Burgundavia> be very clear what is it
<Burgundavia> it is, even
<Burgundavia> mp3 is a restricted format
<mpt> subpages are for things that are always going to be subsets of the thing being discussed
<mdke> hmm
<mpt> MP3 is a restricted format now, but it won't always be :-)
<Burgundavia> yes, that is true
<Burgundavia> that is what #redirect is for
<mdke> i see jeffsch has also marked styleguide as finished :)))
<Burgundavia> cool
<Burgundavia> I have to run
<mdke> okies
<Burgundavia> if someone can deal with that java stuff, that would be great
<mdke> i'll do that
<Burgundavia> thanks, sorry about dumping it
<mdke> Burgundavia, btw is that java package in hoary-extras?
<jeffsch> mpt: ping
<mpt> jeffsch: pong
<mdke> hey jeffsch 
<jeffsch> just a question about baz
<mdke> nice work on the styleguide
<jeffsch> on UbuntuHelp, should baz get http://mirrors.sourcecontrol.net/mpt@myrealbox.com/help--0 ubuntu-help
<jeffsch> be http://mirrors.sourcecontrol.net/mpt@myrealbox.com/help--0 ~/archives/ubuntu-help?
<jeffsch> hey mdke
<Burgundavia> mdke, yes
<mpt> jeffsch: No, you could do it that way if you like, but it's not necessary
<mpt> jeffsch: ~/archives (or equivalent) is where Bazaar keeps patch logs, cached revisions, etc
<mpt> you can have the actual things you're developing wherever else you like
<jeffsch> ok. I was expecting everything to be under the ~/archives 
<mpt> I have my copy of Ubuntu Help in ~/ubuntu/help, alongside ~/ubuntu/launchpad
<jeffsch> is this the only docs on bazaar? http://bazaar.canonical.com/doc/
<jeffsch> they really suck, I can't understand what the heck is going on
<mpt> I've never read those docs
<Burgundavia> yes, those docs suck
<mpt> I just use baz help and baz whatever -h :-)
<jeffsch> ok
<mpt> most of the commands you don't need unless you're doing fancy stuff like branches of branches
<mpt> just commit, diff, status, undo, archive-mirror
<jeffsch> ok. but if i want to make sure i have the latest version of a file in the baz archive, do i have to get update it from each mirror?
<mpt> You can merge from whoever you like
<mpt> just like Linus Torvalds does
<mpt> it's not necessary for Linus to merge from everyone all the time
<Burgundavia> so if you think I am doing crack, you can not merge from me
<Burgundavia> but merge from mpt
<mpt> precisely
<jeffsch> ok. but how do i know who has the latest and greatest?
<mpt> or vice versa :-)
<mpt> jeffsch: same way people announce new docs now -- on the mailing list
<mpt> but on a micro level
<mpt> If you know someone (like me, for example) is regularly doing stuff, you can do a diff
<mpt> baz diff mpt@myrealbox.com/help--0 | less
<jeffsch> ok. whose archive gets released then?
<mpt> Whoever's happens to be best at the time :-)
<mpt> There's no bottleneck
<mpt> and no-one can hold the project hostage
<mpt> just like with the kernel
<jeffsch> so after i make a change and put it on my mirror, i write an email to the list?
<jeffsch> is there anyway to automate sending an email?
<mpt> if you have a substantial chunk that you've finished, you could let people know, sure
<mpt> or let them know on IRC
<mdke> mpt, you have no plan to put the doc on our svn repo?
<mpt> mdke: For a new doc, I'd rather not
<mdke> how come?
<mpt> since we'd just be switching back to Bazaar later on
<mpt> I can understand sticking with SVN for existing docs until people get to know Bazaar
<mdke> but do you intend the doc to be published in breezy?
<jeffsch> i'm having trouble wrapping my head around the idea of updating from 20 different mirrors everyday, just to make sure i'm wroking on the latest doc
<mdke> we need all the docs together
<jjesse> why are we even talking about switching to bazaar right now when we should be finishing projects in svn instead
<mdke> its not a question of separating old and new docs, we need all the docs in the same place
<mpt> mdke: I'd hope it would be good enough for 5.10, yes
<jeffsch> mdke: +1
<jeffsch> jjesse: +1
<jjesse> i think we should quit arguing and actually do some doc work, commits have been way down it seems from the traffic onthe commit mailing list
<mpt> jjesse: Sure, I'm trying to spend as much time as possible writing and as little time as possible talking
<jjesse> to be honset (and not trying to offend) it seems the opposite for a lot people
<jjesse> creating new things in baazaar, new things in launchpad etc...
<mpt> I'm up to patch-6 after only a couple of days
<mpt> though measuring by number of commits is a bit meaningless :-)
<mpt> jeffsch: With the kernel, people aren't updating from 20 different mirrors every day
<jjesse> stupid connection :(
<mpt> development organizes itself into a tree, so each person ends up merging from a few, who merge from a few others, etc
<mpt> I'm mainly working on customizing.xml at the moment
<jeffsch> baz may be a better system, but it is more complicated to use, it seems
<jeffsch> now may not be the best time to get everyone to learn it
<mpt> I can understand that
<mpt> baz is descended from tla, which was horrid
<mpt> baz is a vast improvement for six months
<mpt> bzr will be even simpler
<mpt> I'm not saying everyone should stop working on the other docs, if they're used to SVN.
<jeffsch> after breezy release, there will be lots of time. maybe we can go directly to bzr, whatever that is.
<mpt> bzr is Bazaar 2.0
<jeffsch> IMHO, we *should* stop working on other docs, and concentrate on UbuntuHelp
<jeffsch> IMHO, it's the only doc we can get done in time for breezy anyway
<jeffsch> if it's the only thing we all work on, we can do it
<mpt> How finished are the others?
<jeffsch> but not if we have to learn baz first
<jjesse> just remember if we all work on UbuntuHelp we can't forget kubuntu
<jjesse> but i agree w/ jeffsch i don't want to half to learn another program to finish something, put it in svn
<mpt> ok, is there a document somewhere explaining docbook profiling really simply?
<jjesse> hmm i have a link someplace, let me look
<mpt> then we can have profiles for ubuntu, kubuntu, and edubuntu
<Burgundavia> mdke, I think I figured it out. I don't think the deletion is showing up because I edited the page that day
<mpt> *sigh*
<mpt> I love how yelp crashes on XML errors
<Burgundavia> yes
<mdke> mpt, i will help out if you can get your doc in svn and work there
<mdke> mpt, i reckon with a few of us working on it we could get it done quickly given the amount on material already available in the faqguide, userguide and other documents
<mgalvin> what is the point then of having a faq guide if some other guide is just going to take that info and put it some place else, it is just pure duplication and pointless to have the exact same content in 2 differenet docs in the same set of docs
<mgalvin> anyway, gotta run
<mdke> ouch
<mdke> i think he has misunderstood a bit
<mpt> mmm
<mpt> I don't have the karma to order people around :-)
#ubuntu-doc 2005-08-07
<Madpilot> anyone around?
<robitaille> yes
<HrdwrBoB> kinda
<Madpilot> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuHowComeDraft  <-- rob^ & I have been working on this - I think it's ready to go out in place of the existing HowCome
<Madpilot> thoughts?
<Madpilot> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuHowCome  <-- the original, in all it's messy glory
<HrdwrBoB> t a way to link to something aside from the actual ISOs - discovering that a 500Mb+ file is coming down might be a bit of a shock to some people, but the main Download page is too vague right now - Madpilot
<HrdwrBoB> ^ maybe there needs to be a LiveCDHowto wiki
<robitaille> there is still a "TODO" section (How did Ubuntu start), so maybe it's not ready just yet :)
<Madpilot> meh, forgot the TODO - is there a 'history of Mark, Canonical & Ubuntu' somewhere we can crib from?
<Madpilot> LiveCDHowTo - there's already a burning ISO page whch is linked to from HowComeDraft
<HrdwrBoB> yes
<robitaille> Madpilot:  wikipedia for historical background?  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ubuntu_Linux 
<Madpilot> robitaille: excellent - and with wikipedia's license, we can even use that stuff directly (not all of it tho)
<Burgundavia> Madpilot, see the GettingUbuntu page
<Burgundavia> link to that
<Madpilot> slow channel, isn't it?
<Burgundavia> yes
<Burgundavia> just got home from gaming
<Burgundavia> my char died
<Madpilot> in a good & dramatic way, or did he/she fall in front of a wagon?
<Burgundavia> a good and dramatic way
<Madpilot> well, good.
<Madpilot> like one char of mine who was beaten to death with his own left arm, which had been ripped off by a large monster?
<rob^> bbbr
<rob^> its so cold today
<Burgundavia> how cold is cold?
<rob^> 22C
<Madpilot> that's cold? man, where do you live?
<rob^> North Queenslad
<rob^> *land
* rob^ has frozen fingers
<robitaille> 22C == perfect temperature for me. (I don't like cold nor warm weather)
<rob^> its been raining today too
<Madpilot> 22 is OK. it was up to about 26 today, that was nice 
<rob^> 26 is nice
<Madpilot> but now it's down to about 16 - and I still have the back door wide open - nice cool night
* Madpilot predicts that rob^ has just frozen solid at the mere *thought* of 16C...
* rob^ runs away screaming
<Madpilot> heh. Oz has all the toxic critters ever invented, but the locals are scared of a bit of cool temps?
<rob^> you are if your a north queenslander
<rob^> 16 is unheard of
<rob^> does ie5.x and moin not agree or something? I've been playing with moin and it looks good with all graphics in FF 1.0.6 but at work there are no images..
<Burgundavia> wouldn't be surprised
<Burgundavia> ie is not the target audience for moin
<rob^> no
<rob^> but the ubuntu wiki works fine however
<Madpilot> good to know.
<Madpilot> I'd like to have an "IE emulator" to test pages in - it's crap, but it's widespread crap and your website better work in it...
<Burgundavia> would be nice
<Burgundavia> the wine people are the ones to go for that
<rob^> umm wine
<rob^> it works
* rob^ fires it up to check
<Madpilot> does IE6 work in WINE? had heard that it didn't
<rob^> yep
<robitaille> I thought you could run IE in wine.
<rob^> i have
<rob^> eTax too
<rob^> 6.0.2800.1106
<Madpilot> OK, cool. might have to get wine working & *cough*borrow*cough*  a copy of IE...
<rob^> ie that is
<rob^> nah, you can download it
<Burgundavia> you can get wine off of the ms website
<Burgundavia> s/wine/ie
<rob^> hehe
<Madpilot> yeah, I'd forgotten that. will have to add wine to my list of projects...
<rob^> yep, sure as pie, moin doesn't work in IE6 but works fine in FF 1.0.6
<rob^> thats odd.. one attachment pic works
<rob^> but the outputted source from ie doesn't include any image links..
<rob^> :(
<Madpilot> isn't IE6 fun? it can't even support the very basic CSS1 entirely
<froud> mdke: are there any kubuntu apps being localized in Rosetta?
<mdke> froud, everything should be there
<rob^> Madpilot, yep
<froud> mdke: but are they doing Kubuntu there?
<froud> I dont see anything Kubuntu
<froud> but then I am not familiar with Rosetta
<mdke> better ask
<mdke> i don't see it either
<mdke> anything with po files in the source packages in the Ubuntu archive get's uploaded into rosetta
<froud> Hmm and no body on kubuntu-devel seems to now
<froud> s/now/know
<mdke> actually I see it
<mdke> its there
<froud> it is ?
<mdke> https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/breezy/+sources/kaffeine/+pots/kaffeine/
<froud> OK so then the pots will make it in
<mdke> https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/breezy/+sources/kompose/+pots/kompose/
<mdke> anything in main which has the correct structure with pots in makes it into rosetta
<mdke> anything else, we can add by hand
<froud> k
<jsgotangco> hey all
<Madpilot> hi
<mdke> yo
<Madpilot> hey, there are ppl here.
<jsgotangco> mdke: hey long time no chat
<jsgotangco> Madpilot: heh...it just happened that my internet access is going bonkers lately
<Madpilot> wow - fun attack on the main #ubuntu channel. f*cking idiots...
<froud> mdke: @#kubuntu-devel [11:17]  <Riddell> froud: not yet, hopefully it'll happen before breezy
<mdke> froud, its happening already for many packages, as I showed you
<froud> yep yep
<froud> just want to say that Riddell is on it :-)
* mpt wonders why "Lock Screen" isn't working
<mpt> It's not for the reason that's in the help :-x
<mgalvin> hi all
<mpt> hi mgalvin
<mdke> anyone figure out why there are weird characters on the docteam server hosted docs? or is it just me... http://65.19.178.132/gnome/faqi386/C/
<venda> its not just you
<venda> but the problem does not exist at lnix.net/~froud
<mdke> no
<mdke> nor at any other server I've checked
<venda> so I suspect a CSS bug again
<mdke> don't think so... the gnome docs are ok on tseng's server and rob^'s server
<mdke> it must be something wrong with the locale or something
<venda> r they using the same css
<mdke> yes
<venda> so what's different
<mdke> the server
<venda> nah it cant be apache
<mdke> y not?
<venda> apache does nothing to the files
<venda> just serves them
<venda> no?
<mdke> maybe its using the wrong locale or something
<jjesse> where are you gettign wierd characters?
<jjesse> i'm not seeing any
<mdke> on that link, e.g. after the Copyright where the c should be
<mdke> all over the place
<mdke> at the top and bottom of the page too
<mdke> jjesse, you don't get em?
<mgalvin> eww, i see them too
<mdke> mgalvin, any ideas what might be causing that?
<mgalvin> hmm, they are in the source too it seems (view source in ff) did someone open this in some stanger editor that modified the file format?
<mdke> mgalvin, no, it only happens on that server
<mgalvin> can you view the file itself on the server in like vi or something, does it look ok?
<mdke> the html file?
<mdke> i'll try that...
<mgalvin> yea
<mdke> i'm waiting for it to reboot
<mgalvin> k
<mdke> jeez it had better not change ip
<mgalvin> hehehe
<froud> :-)
<mdke> that would be crazy tho
<mdke> grrr
<mdke> where has it gone
<mgalvin> when i open the html in gedit it looks fine, opening it in vi shows those odd chars
<mgalvin> if that helps at all
<mgalvin> it seems the file itself my be corrupt
<mgalvin> slightly
<mgalvin> or the build created the html weird, possibly
<mdke> that's more likely imho
<mdke> anyhow, the server has disappeared now
<mdke> :/
<mgalvin> lol
<venda> :-)
<mdke> bbl, will chase the damn server up
<judax> Hi all, back from Holiday, finally
<mdke> wb :)
<judax> thx
<mdke> good luck catching up on the ML
<judax> no kidding, almost 200 mails
<Burgundavia> heh
<highvolt1ge> hmmm... how does that happen.
#ubuntu-doc 2006-07-31
<Seveas> sladen, depjayds at gmail.com is ubuntu_demon -- another forum admin 
* sladen should save these
<kbrooks> Hmmm. lets see.
<kbrooks> there are old hoary things on the wiki.
<Burgundavia> kbrooks: hoary is still supported
<kbrooks> Eh?
<kbrooks> when will it be unsupported?
<Burgundavia> kbrooks: when edgy releases
<robotgeek> how goes it?
<Burgundavia> not bad, you?
<robotgeek> good. having a beer, just finished off pizza
<newz2000> where do you guys file specs for docteam stuff?
<newz2000> (on the wiki I mean)
<robotgeek> hmm, lemme look
<robotgeek> newz2000: mostly all over the place :) https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CategorySpec
<newz2000> robotgeek: Do you like robots?
<robotgeek> newz2000: yeah, sure
<newz2000> My son and I made our first non-autonomous robot this last week...
<newz2000> The Radio Shack Vex kit was on clearance... I couldn't resist.
<robotgeek> oh nice. i will soon buy one, i've used only legos before
<newz2000> Hurry, they're running out.
<robotgeek> nah, not in a hurry really. 
<newz2000> We had a soccer playing robot built in about 2.5 hours.
<newz2000> My son is only 5 years old, so I say "we" but really it was me.
<robotgeek> soon, my company will sponsor me to mentor a bunch of kids to build robots :)
<newz2000> will you use these kits or are you going to do something more DIY, such as PICs/Basic Stamps?
<robotgeek> i'm looking into building the mintu mp3 player for myself using pics
<newz2000> do you have a pic programmer yet?
<robotgeek> soon, i will have a debugger kit, muhahaha
<Burgundavia> newz2000: what sort of specs? we are pretty sparing with the specs
<newz2000> Burgundavia: Specs for usability testing... prompted by discussion on the mailing list from Friday.
<newz2000> I'm classifying them under ubuntu-website though.
<newz2000> Robotgeek: Have you found one that works under Linux? I've got two and can't get either to work right.
<Burgundavia> not really
<Burgundavia> we have been pretty quiet recently
<newz2000> ok. I see that people really aren't using sub-pages much for the specs.
<newz2000> That makes me sad. I love order and wikis are so flat. :-(
<robotgeek> newz2000: nope, i dont think i could use linux at work (as such)
<Burgundavia> moin makes subpages and name spaces hard
<robotgeek> for this particular thing, alteast. best app for the job
<newz2000> Burgundavia: Tell me about it.
<Burgundavia> people not using subpages for specs, like putting all specs under Spec/ is the main reason we hived off the help stuff
<newz2000> yeah, that was a good plan.
<newz2000> Its my dream one day to see more unification and structure to the Ubuntu website.
<newz2000> Instead of everyone making a new website for this or that.
<Burgundavia> well, you are the webmaster now
<newz2000> Well, this is not a website run by a webmaster. This is a community website run by the community.
<robotgeek> oh, are you our webmaster newz2000 ?
<newz2000> Si
<newz2000> But I like robots too. :D
<robotgeek> newz2000: heh, i filed a bug about safari not rendering our website correctly :)
<Burgundavia> newz2000: the one thing I would love to work on is a new ubuntu.com
<Burgundavia> the main page, that is
<newz2000> Burgundavia, sign up for the website team: https://launchpad.net/people/ubuntu-website
<newz2000> robotgeek: where did you file that bug?
<robotgeek> on launchpad, moment
<Burgundavia> newz2000: I already have edit rights, but I am not about to start changing the main page willynilly
<newz2000> You have edit rights on the main website?
<newz2000> Oh, you're corey
<Burgundavia> absolutely, check recentchanges
<newz2000> Nice to meet you.
<Burgundavia> nice to meet you as wel
<Burgundavia> my timezone is the same as mdz's, so our schedules don't overlap much
<newz2000> Where are you?
<Burgundavia> Victoria BC Canada
<newz2000> I'm in Des Moines Iowa USA.
<newz2000> US/Central time zone
<Burgundavia> I thought you were in the UK, for some reason
<Burgundavia> well that makes it much easier
<robotgeek> https://launchpad.net/products/ubuntu-website/+bug/51312 newz2000 
<Ubugtu> Malone bug 51312 in ubuntu-website "Website renders incorrectly using safari" [Untriaged,Unconfirmed]  
<newz2000> oh, that bug
<newz2000> yeah, the system doesn't handle lower screen res that well.
<newz2000> We'll fix that on the next rev, later this summer
<robotgeek> no, its not 800 x 600, its the next one
<robotgeek> 1024x768 thats it
<newz2000> what am I looking for... the overlapping of the nav bar?
<robotgeek> pretty much
<newz2000> Burgundavia: Yeah, it's lonely being in this hemisphere
<robotgeek> newz2000: i'm in alabama :)
<newz2000> robotgeek: The browser window is set to only 800 px wide. 
<Burgundavia> even mdz spends several weeks a year in london
<newz2000> I'm heading there in a couple weeks
<robotgeek> i'll check it out again, newz2000 
<robotgeek> newz2000: alabama? where in?
<Burgundavia> hmm, googling a person is quite interesting
<newz2000> robotgeek: no, London.
<robotgeek> hmm, okay. /me is disapponited, lol
<newz2000> sorry. :)
<Burgundavia> evening mine bruder
<Madpilot> greetings
<robotgeek> howdy Madpilot 
<Burgundavia> did you get up today?
<Madpilot> Burgundavia, flying? No, hung out here this afternoon then went to work
<Burgundavia> pity, as the weather is gorgeous
<Madpilot> there were some wicked CB cells moving through - nasty little squalls dumping lots of rain
<Burgundavia> newz2000: for the confused, Madpilot is my older brother
<newz2000> Ah. Cool. Also in BC?
<Madpilot> we're both in Victoria
<Madpilot> Burgundavia, for flying, the wx today has been mixed - lots of FEW035CB in the reports - which means "wannabe-thunderstorms at 3,500ft" - not nice
<Burgundavia> hmm, fun
<newz2000> robotgeek: I aspire to do more professional (paid) writing. My one by-line was for a book review in Servo magazine.
<newz2000> 123 PIC Microcontroller experiments for the evil genius
<newz2000> I highly recomend it if you want a book on PICs.
<newz2000> The programmer in that book (PicKit 1) is actually supported under linux, but doesn't seem to work in dapper.
<robotgeek> newz2000: mostly have done fine with the manuals
<Burgundavia> newz2000: what are the details of this summers revamp of the website?
<newz2000> Burgundavia: Still under discussion. I'm suggesting to people with input to file bugs.
<robotgeek> most of my work in the future will be writing drivers for boards etc which use pics
<newz2000> I say "summer" but my guess is that it won't start until the last week of August.
<newz2000> robotgeek: Are you doing anything with USB yet?
<Burgundavia> are we closer to getting a ubuntu-website mailing list?
<robotgeek> newz2000: nope, we do all our stuff using ethernet
<robotgeek> i should be working on it in the future though (for mp3 player)
<newz2000> Burgundavia: I think we have one... I approved it on Friday, however I didn't know how to complete some of the admin details. So maybe its not active until I do that.
<newz2000> I didn't get to that item on my todo list until most of the people were gone for the day, so tomorrow morn I should get the advise I need to finish the admin stuff.
<Burgundavia> sounds good
<newz2000> I honestly dont know how we got by without a webmaster before. I don't understand how Henrik got anything else done. There is so much to do.
<Burgundavia> you can push stuff off to me, if you want
<newz2000> Have you ever played with aspseek before?
<robotgeek> hmm, thanks to google video's download for ipod option
<Burgundavia> nope
<robotgeek> only way for me to watch google videos
<newz2000> That's my pet project I'm trying to find time for... right now I'm so frustrated by search.
<newz2000> If you go to www.ubuntu.com and type in the search box you get no results...
<newz2000> most of the info is on either wiki.u.c or help.u.c.
<newz2000> I'd like to find some way to make searching work across sites.
<newz2000> However it should be controllable... for example, when searching for help we want to limit the search to the helpsite.
<newz2000> I've done this before using ht://dig, but it looks like that product is abandoned.
<newz2000> Aspseek seems to be a good alternative... modern, robust, active.
<newz2000> Plus it's FOSS, which I think is important.
<Burgundavia> Madpilot: you have ops on -offtopic, no
<Burgundavia> ?
<Burgundavia> salut jsgotangco
<jsgotangco> hey Burgundavia
<robotgeek> one by one, the doc team files in :)
<jsgotangco> heh i will just grab some lunch
<Madpilot> Burgundavia, I do, yeah - why?
<Burgundavia> Madpilot: never mind,
<Burgundavia> ok, I officially hate my desktop keyboard
<Burgundavia> it is too stiff
<newz2000> bedtime.
<newz2000> robotgeek: http://www.create.ucsb.edu/~dano/CUI/ looks promising
<newz2000> thanks for the info all
<Burgundavia> night all
<mdke_> sladen: no, afraid not - signing up to the forums is a good idea
<mdke_> morning
<jsgotangco> hi
<manicka> mdke, any news on the udsf/forums porting project?
<mdke> manicka: no, we should draw up some ideas and start documenting 
<mdke> the proces
<mdke> s
<mdke> gah
<manicka> hmm, ok
<manicka> here's a few thoughts
<manicka> the pages on the udsf are tricky to port to moin moin because of the templates that have been used system wide
<manicka> I've found it easier to take the pages straight from the forums instead
<manicka> but the udsf is a good resource for which docs to target
<mdke> right
<manicka> kb also claims to have about 5 people interested in working on the project
<manicka> back to porting, I've been experimenting with copying and pasting from the forums into the moin moin 1.5 personal gui and the tweaking the resulting code
<manicka> works quite well
<mdke> good. One more thing that needs to be quite clearly explained is to focus on avoiding duplicating material that already exists on the help wiki
<manicka> I've also asked Ryan to clarify some licensing questions here http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=225453
<manicka> no answer as yet
<manicka> duplication could be avoided by a simple search
<mdke> we need to clarify them from our side too
<manicka> ok
* romana waves quiet hello
<manicka> hi
<mdke> hi there romana 
<mdke> manicka: I've answered your query on licensing
<manicka> I just noticed
<manicka> i wonder of that is still the case if the original author publishes there knowing that the material will be under that license
<manicka> the last clause seems to void all those issues with permission
<mdke> manicka: sorry, can you explain a bit more?
<manicka> well
<manicka> * Any of these conditions can be waived if you get permission from the copyright holder.
<mdke> right, you get permission to waive conditions from the copyright holder
<manicka> who is the copyright holder I guess is the question
<mdke> the person who writes the material
<mdke> all clear?
<manicka> I think they would argue that they have the copyright, not the author
<mdke> sorry, I don't understand at all. The Author *is* the person who writes the material
<manicka> brb, phone
<manicka> so mdke, the problem seems to come back to the original identified issues. It make the original porting of docs from the forums to the udsf a breach of copyright and subsequently difficult to port to the wiki
<manicka> if obtaining permission of the author is the issue, you don't really need the udsf's involvement to do that
<manicka> what is really needed is a team of forum members who would approach other members to get their permission or to assist them to post in on the wiki themselves
<mdke> manicka: no, hang on.
<mdke> porting of docs to udsf isn't a breach of copyright if the license is maintained (which it is) and if there is attribution (is this done?)
<mdke> it's porting of docs to the help wiki that is a problem, and for which you need permission
<manicka> yes attribution is done I guess, but permission is not sort
<manicka> and  the license is the same
<mdke> right, so you don't need permission then
<manicka> ok, i see the dilemma
<mdke> you only need permission to *change* any of the conditions
<manicka> from the author
<manicka> hmmm
<manicka> so mdke. what is the answer to making this work?
<mdke> manicka: I said in my post, you should ask the permission of the author to put the material into the public domain  before adding it to help.ubuntu.com
<mdke> once we've resolved the licensing question, then we will revise that statement
<manicka> mips has asked some valid questions in the thread. There is nothing in the sign up about agreeing to creative commons
<mdke> there is, I believe
<jjesse> morning
<mdke> however, it should be much clearer, like on the bottom of every page. I opened a thread about that once, but it doesn't seem to have been implemented
<mdke> morning jjesse 
<jjesse> monring mdke (or probablly afternoon for you )
<mdke> just about
<mdke> do you guys have trunk/Rakefile? wtf is that?
<dsas> it's a Makefile wrote in Ruby
<mdke> why is it there?
<mdke> and who made it?
<mdke> trappist!
<trappist> mdke!
<mdke> trappist: what's that all about?
<mdke> we need a policy of posting to the mailing list about new and funky things
<trappist> I was hoping to condense some utilities into one place
<mdke> ahuh
<mdke> trappist: in particular?
<trappist> building and validating, in particular
<mdke> right
<mdke> but doesn't building also already incorporate validating?
<mdke> xsltproc spits out invalid xml
<trappist> dunno, but a lot of validation happens apart from building, and I thought it'd be nice to consolidate them into one file, cut down on clutter
<mdke> anyway, i was curious about what it was, nice to know. Maybe you can post about your ideas to the ML?
<trappist> but of course I didn't delete validate.sh :)
<trappist> can do.  probably shoulda done that in the first place
<mdke> thanks
<jsgotangco> heh
<mdke> robotgeek: around?
<mdke> hands up if you have contributed to the add-applications section of the desktop guide?
<jsgotangco> nixternal: are you there?
<jjesse> i think hes on vacation this week?  he sent out an email last week if i recall correctly
<jsgotangco> oh yeah
<jsgotangco> but he's not away on irc
<jsgotangco> heh
<jjesse> wow he's on a lot of channels
<jsgotangco> crack addict
<jsgotangco> "Inspired by Jonatha's cry for action"
<nixternal> hello!!!
<nixternal> jsgotangco: im here for a quick second...im enjoying the hot hot weather on vacation ;)
<jsgotangco> lol
<jjesse> didn't realize i had made a call to action :)
<mdke> jjesse: sure, https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-doc/2006-July/006860.html
<jjesse> did the build for the releasenotes for kubuntu get removed from the makefile?
<jjesse> ah it was changed from make krn to make release-notes
<LaserJock> mdke: why will links be broken with the new articles?
<jjesse> because they moved directories?
<mdke> LaserJock: because there were a lot of cross references, which were to things which are now not in the same document
<LaserJock> but don't the articles just point to the existing docs?
<LaserJock> oh wait, sorry
<LaserJock> I was just thinking of the packaging guide
<LaserJock> which probably won't get all split up
<LaserJock> sorry, brain fart
<mdke> so <xref linkend="add-applications"> in the desktopguide is now broken, because there isn't a section in the desktopguide called "add-applications", it has its own article
<mdke> I'm actually a bit stumped on how to fix those... I'll need to hash something out with upstream
<jjesse> i'm looking for someone to apply the diff i sent to the release notes and also someone to review them please ;)
<LaserJock> jjesse: you can't apply it yourself?
<jjesse> LaserJock: forgot to copy my key and the email w/ the password over when i redid this virtual machine
<jjesse> i have to find it on my computer at home
<LaserJock> jjesse: ah
<LaserJock> jjesse: dang, that's a decent sized patch
<jjesse> its basically a total rewrite for bug #48525
<Ubugtu> Malone bug 48525 in kubuntu-docs "Problems with Dapper Release Notes for Kubuntu" [Medium,Confirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/48525
<LaserJock> jjesse: well, it validates. I'll commit it.
<jjesse> LaserJock: thanks
<jjesse> does doc.ubuntu.com still get updated nightly?
<LaserJock> something like that
<LaserJock> I'm not sure what it is exactly
<LaserJock> but I made changes to the packaging guide and they showed up fairly quickly
<LaserJock> so it is being generated
<jjesse> cool, its my oldest bug :)
<LaserJock> although i don't think the status reports are getting generated
<jjesse> LaserJock: thanks for uploading that one :)
<jjesse> i know it was pretty big
<LaserJock> np
<jjesse> wow its 97 degrees F out and feels like 107
<LaserJock> yeah, we just got the cool-down in the last few days
<locutus_> Does anyone have a list of all the instillation options for Ubuntu?
<LaserJock> how do you mean?
<locutus_> I have a problem that I've seen on some of the forums...
<locutus_> When I load Ubuntu, it starts out just fine...
<locutus_> But then it freezes up at "Mounting root file systems"
<LaserJock> k
<locutus_> I'm wondering if anyone has a list explaining the boot or install options.
<locutus_> All of them.
<LaserJock> for the text installer?
<locutus_> I think so.
<locutus_> It's the install options when you put in the CD right at startup.
<LaserJock> hmmm, I don't know of a list. You might ask the ubuntu-users mailing list or #ubuntu
<locutus_> Okay.  TX.
<manicka> hmm, he should use the alternate cd
<LaserJock> manicka: I think that is what he was using
<manicka> that issue tends to occur with he desktop CD... anyway
<LaserJock> hmm
<LaserJock> hi theCore 
<theCore> hello LaserJock!
#ubuntu-doc 2006-08-01
<jsgotangco> hi
<jjesse> did the edubuntu docs get uploaded into our svn yet?? i though someone mentioned it at the last doc team mtg?
<jsgotangco> i am not aware..i haven't been in the loop lately
<LaserJock> jjesse: well, we are supposed to get Edubuntu Handbook material sometime
<LaserJock> jjesse: and I think they wanted to put an Edubuntu pamphlet that was done for Dapper on help.ubuntu.com as well
<jsgotangco> hey LaserJock
<LaserJock> hi jsgotangco 
<nixternal> let me guess. problems around here ;)
<LaserJock> hm?
<nixternal> whats up LaserJock
<jsgotangco> hey
<nixternal> whats up jsgotangco
<jsgotangco> nothing much
<jsgotangco> just looking for changes at the gnome wiki
<LaserJock> not a whole lot here
<LaserJock> I'm going to try to work on some stuff
<nixternal> seems it has been pretty quiet..thats good..i bet it gets noisey come friday afternoon when the vacation is over with ;)
<LaserJock> jsgotangco: I got an email back from the debian refernce maintainer, did I tell you that?
<jsgotangco> yeah me too, its been a while since ive slacked ever since i discovered online fragging on the DS
<jsgotangco> LaserJock: hmm i think so
<jsgotangco> i can't seem to recall
<jsgotangco> are we forking?
<LaserJock> I'll need to take a deep look into that, and it's not yet clear when I
<LaserJock> have time for that. But that's on my todo-list.
<LaserJock> ^^ is all he sent me
<LaserJock> soooo
<jsgotangco> lol
<LaserJock> I have no idea if that means a couple weeks, or a couple years
<jsgotangco> forking sounds good
<LaserJock> jsgotangco: well, I still don't know what to do, I should test how easy it is to convert debiandoc to docbook
<Laser_away> jsgotangco: you still around?
<jsgotangco> of course its only 1:20PM
<jsgotangco> :)
<jsgotangco> Laser_away: what's up?
<Laser_away> jsgotangco: oh
<Laser_away> jsgotangco: well, I was looking at debiandoc2xml
<jsgotangco> i have judas priest on my track list i definitely won't sleep ;)
<jsgotangco> okay
<Laser_away> basically I just gave it the developers-reference.sgml
<Laser_away> and it spat out nice docbook chapters
<jsgotangco> wow
<Laser_away> that rendered pretty well in yelp
<jsgotangco> no tag hacks done?
<Laser_away> it looked ok to me
<jsgotangco> that's nice but i wonder how much work still needs to be done to adapt to it
<Laser_away> I just had to change some non-unicode characters for some accented letters in somebodies name
<jsgotangco> the d-i manual basically grep'ed some words then changed it with some modifications as well
<jsgotangco> so i guess we'll have to do the same approach
<Laser_away> I wonder if we can just keep modifing the debian doc and if they move to docbook before edgy is released I think we can pretty easily merge
<Laser_away> and if not we are ok
<jsgotangco> yeah
<Laser_away> anyway, I gotta go
<Laser_away> bed time here
<jsgotangco> Laser_away: when do you want to start?
<Laser_away> soon
<jsgotangco> this month is pretty free for me
<Laser_away> I'll talk to you tommorow about it
<jsgotangco> okay
<Laser_away> goodnight
<jsgotangco> thanks
<Burgundavia> finally, a story about gai! http://www.wiredwriter.net/index.html?page=Tutorials#add
<jsgotangco> oohhh
<Madpilot> cool, doesn't look like the author got too much wrong 
<Burgundavia> nope
<jsgotangco> hmm not much really
<mdke> morning
<Burgundavia> morning mdke
<jsgotangco> hi
<neilc_> hello
<jsgotangco> hey
<Burgundavia> night
<mdke> mvirkkil: another bug for you on moin->docbook
<mdke> mvirkkil: when generating this page (http://docbook.wikiwikiweb.de/MatthewEast/Participate) the resulting docbook was missing a space after the <ulink> tags (see https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-doc-commits/2006-August/002708.html for the corrections)
<mdke> mvirkkil: oh hang on, it seems to be ok in the docbook generated by the wiki, it's tidy that has caused the damage I think
<bhuvan> mdke: ping
<mdke> bhuvan: yep
<bhuvan> do you have access to ubuntu-doc repo ?
<bhuvan> i meant direct access
<mdke> no
<mdke> why?
<bhuvan> ok; i've a suggestion. i'm unsure how useful it'll be.
<bhuvan> will it be useful if we enable a bot to send commit messages to this channel as soon as it was committed
<mdke> would be nice, sure
<bhuvan> visit http://cia.navi.cx for details. by default the commit messages are forwarded to #commits channel and we can also redirect it to any channel we wish. to implement, all we need is to install (copy) a script to hooks dir in our repo
<mdke> I could arrange that
<bhuvan> oh excellent, thank you!
<mdke> bhuvan: can you send me the script?
<bhuvan> btw, i dont see this setup for any of ubuntu projects (motu, artwork, doc, etc). would be useful if we do that as well (or atleast inform the lead)
<bhuvan> sure.http://cia.navi.cx/clients/svn/ciabot_svn.py
<mdke> and I need to amend the script to specify the channel?
<bhuvan> nope; by default it'll send it to #commits channel. we need to contact someone (mailto:micah@navi.cx) to forward it to this channel. 
<mdke> fine
<bhuvan> mdke: we can edit the script and change the project name, repositoryURI, revisionURI (as we have viewVC)
<mdke> and it drops into the hooks directory?
<mvirkkil> mdke: Ok.
<mdke> how are the commit messages forwarded? the bot joins this channel and uses a normal message
<mdke> how are the commit messages forwarded? the bot joins this channel and uses a normal messag/win 13
<mdke> argh
<bhuvan> mdke: yes. in addition, edit post-commit.tmpl to run this script (ciabot_svn.py)
<mdke> bhuvan: alright, the instructions in the script look sufficient, I'll send it off
<bhuvan> mdke: ok. yes, the bot (CIA-XX will join this channel and post the commit messages automatically). you can join #commits channel to view the snippet though it looks bit ugly as it prints the commit messages of *many* open source projects
<mdke> yeah, nice suggestion, thanks
<jjesse> ubuntu book comes out on the 4th :)
<mdke> at last!
<jjesse> ranked 10,943 or something like that
<jjesse> all i know is prentince hall has some google mojo
<jjesse> do a search for jonathan jesse :)
<jsgotangco> braggart!
<jsgotangco> :)
<mdke> says something about a porn star
<jsgotangco> wooooo
<jjesse> well i didn't want anyone to know that about me....
<jjesse> mdke: i had Laser_away upload my patch to the release notes, should i see changes on doc.ubuntu.com?
<jjesse> i'm trying to fix bug 48525
<Ubugtu> Malone bug 48525 in kubuntu-docs "Problems with Dapper Release Notes for Kubuntu" [Medium,Confirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/48525
<mdke> jjesse: doc.ubuntu.com deals with what is in trunk, if you made the changes in branch you won't see them
<jjesse> mdke: i would assume that Laser_away uploaded to trunk yesterday
<mdke> jjesse: what was your patch on?
<jjesse> release notes
<mdke> in trunk or branches/dapper?
<jjesse> in trunk
<mdke> I see
<mdke> you should use branches/dapper if you want to make changes for dapper
<jjesse> trunk/kubuntu/releasenotes/C/releasenotes.xml
<mdke> but yes, it should appear on doc.ubuntu.com since the changes were done to trunk
<jjesse> well i would like some feedback on them which is why i uploaded to trunk instaed of brnaches
<mdke> trunk and branches were the same?
<jjesse> yes
<mdke> alright then, I forgive you
<jjesse> thanks
<mdke> lemme check if it is building right
<jjesse> i validated it and Laser_away did before he committed
<mdke> no, it isn't included in the build
<mdke> I'll fix that
<jjesse> i just don't have my svn password here at work
<mdke> jjesse: ok, let me know if it is working now
<mdke> jjesse: ok, let me know if it is working now
<jjesse_> will do thanks
<mdke> jjesse_: any luck?
<locutus_> Could anyone help me with a sound problem?
<mdke> locutus_: #ubuntu
<mdke> they can help
<locutus_> mdke: Same server?
<mdke> yep
<locutus_> TX.
<jjesse_> why do so many people post support requests either here or on the mailing list?
<jjesse> mdke: still haven't seen doc.ubuntu.com update how long does it take?
<mdke> jjesse: I did it manually while we were speaking earlier
<jjesse> still show the old text under release notes for kubuntu
<jjesse> it shouldn't have the "Whaoo a sweet installer" stuff
<mdke> I'll try a rebuild
<mdke> now?
<jjesse> hmm this is what is supposed to be in trunk/kubuntu/releasenotes?
<jjesse> on what i've built on my workstation there is a section titled "Changes to the Kubuntu Installer"
<jjesse> and on doc.ubuntu.com it shows "Installing Kubuntu"
<mdke> jjesse: so when you do "make release-notes" in trunk/kubuntu on your local system, it is different to what you see there?
<jjesse> double checking
<LaserJock> mdke: are you going to start doing doc.ubuntu.com builds via cron again?
<mdke> (ensure you haven't got any changes to your local system that haven't yet been committed)
<mdke> LaserJock: they are still done by cron
<jjesse> mdke: correct i'm looking at ubuntu-doc/trunk/build/kubuntu/release-notes/C/documen.html
<jjesse> and it is different then what is at doc.ubuntu.com
<LaserJock> mdke: hmm, well it looked like the status reports weren't getting build
<mdke> LaserJock: possibly, check in the makefile if it is working
<jjesse> the patch i had sent yesterday that LaserJock committed should match what is on my system
<LaserJock> mdke: ah, k
<mdke> http://doc.ubuntu.com/kubuntu/release-notes/C/document.html
<mdke> jjesse: looks right to me
<mdke> "Changes to the Kubuntu Installer"
<jjesse> does it have "Wahoo a sweet instalelr"
<jjesse> ah wait just changed
<jjesse> maybe i had a cached version in my browser?
<jjesse> hmmm sorry bout tthat
<mdke> possibly
<mdke> np!
* jjesse  grovels
<mdke> i'm off for a bit, cya later
<jjesse> bye
<LaserJock> jjesse: need me to apply your ent patch?
<jjesse> yes please :)
<jjesse> just starting to work on edgy release notes and wanted to get some things chagned :)
<LaserJock> done
<jjesse> thanks
<LaserJock> mdke: hmm, I can't find anything in the makefiles for doing the status reports, did we remove that?
#ubuntu-doc 2006-08-02
<jsgotangco> http://flurdy.com/docs/postfix/
<jsgotangco> WHOA
<LaserJock> interesting
<LaserJock> jsgotangco: bzr branch http://chem.unr.edu/~mantha/ubuntu/udr
<jsgotangco> great
<LaserJock> that's just what I got from Ian, but it's a start
<jsgotangco> i almost read that as Iran
<jsgotangco> lol
<LaserJock> yep, I went a long ways to get
<LaserJock> it
<LaserJock> dodged some missiles ...
<LaserJock> but darn it, I got the documentation ;-)
<jsgotangco> yeah the covert mission was a success
<LaserJock> so the immediate problem is that the current Debian version is 3.3.7 and we have changes to 3.3.6
<jsgotangco> its still branching
<jsgotangco> *groan*
<LaserJock> really? bummer
<LaserJock> it was quick on my local network ;-)
<dsas> It's probably not a good idea to keep the pdf under revision control ;)
<LaserJock> well, it's just there
<jsgotangco> LaserJock: its in sgml i though you had dbk?
<LaserJock> well, that's the current package
<LaserJock> we can use debiandoc2xml to convert it if we want
<LaserJock> but I'm not sure if we want to do that now
<jsgotangco> ok are you suggesting we do it in debiandoc?
<LaserJock> well, I just can't be sure that Debian is going to move to docbook by the time edgy is out
<LaserJock> so we would have to do something radical (developers-reference-ubuntu package) I think if they don't
<jsgotangco> honestly i have little knowledge of debiandoc ive read it before but never really got anything done
<LaserJock> but if we stick to debiandoc for right now and they *do* switch to docbook then I think we can fairly easily convert it
<LaserJock> well, I hadn't even heard of it until I got this
<jsgotangco> can you give me a headstart on what to start, what to packages to get?
<LaserJock> for debiandoc?
<jsgotangco> yeah
<LaserJock> just look for debiandoc in synaptic
<LaserJock> debiandoc-sgml and debiandoc2dbxml I think are the ones you want
<LaserJock> I  guess po-debiandoc is used for the translations maybe
<jsgotangco> if i use aptitude, it wants me to grab 110MB of archives
<jsgotangco> lol
<LaserJock> wha?
<jsgotangco> crazy
<crimsun> aptitude pulls in Recommends by default.
<jsgotangco> yeah
<LaserJock> apt-get wants 7MB
<jsgotangco> Burgundavia: ping?
<Burgundavia> jsgotangco: pong
<jsgotangco> hmm i forgot what to ask you
<jsgotangco> ahh right
<jsgotangco> Burgundavia: are you able to build tinymail?
<Burgundavia> jsgotangco: haven't tried recently
<jsgotangco> ok
<Madpilot> Wow, I think Warren from the MEPIS project is a bit ticked off at the FSF - have a look at his 'GPL FAQ' here: http://www.mepis.org/node/10725
<mdke> Laser_away: possibly... 
* mdke plays with ghelp
<mdke> Laser_away: shit, the packaging in trunk isn't up to date with the branch
<mdke> hi there manicka 
<manicka> hi
<mdke> manicka: have a look at https://help.ubuntu.com/community/forum and see what you think
<mdke> since writing it I just saw https://help.ubuntu.com/community/forum/community/KnowledgebaseTaskForce which is essentially the same thing
<manicka> mdke, that's all pretty much what we've talked about before. It's a good idea to formalise it
<manicka> I guess what needs to be done now
<manicka> is the formal setting up of a team/taskforce
<manicka> From what i can see the team would be negotiating with forum members directly
<mdke> I'd like to talk through those things with the UDSF people, to make sure they are happy with it.
<mdke> I thought of posting to the UDSF forum, is that appropriate?
<manicka> i don't see much of a role for the udsf in that scenario
<manicka> I'm sure they would be interested in a post there
<mdke> ok
<manicka> but i don't think they'll be falling over themselves to help on a taskforce  like that
<mdke> given that the UDSF currently archives a lot of material from the forum, I think it's important that they are a part of this. The whole point was to provide an official channel through which documentation can come from the forum/UDSF -> wiki -> system documentation
<manicka> ok
<manicka> it might also be a good idea to ask for a sticky in the howto forum looking for taskforce/team members, once you have udsf feedback
<mdke> yes, once the project is settled in terms of structure, we'll do something similar
<manicka> ok
<manicka> mdke, forgive my clouded judgement in regards to the udsf at the moment. The overall plan looks sound :)
<mdke> manicka: cool
<mdke> hey there lloydinho 
<mdke> did you see we stuck up a docbook version of the participate website page in the repo for you and Laser_away to play with?
<mdke> lloydinho_: did you see my message just above?
<lloydinho_> no, sorry. Xchat crashed on me
<lloydinho_> mdke: please repeat. :-)
<mdke> did you see we stuck up a docbook version of the participate website page in the repo for you and Laser_away to play with?
<lloydinho_> no. But I'll have a look at it, thanks!
<mdke> great
<lloydinho_> I've been away offline for a few days, so I'll just update my svn now.
<mdke> it's at trunk/ubuntu/contribute/C/contribute.xml
<lloydinho_> cool!
<mdke> hi there troy_s, nice to see you in here. Thinking of getting involved with some documentation?
* mdke puts on his new recruits hat
<jjesse> mornin mdke
<mdke> hiya
<jsgotangco> lol
* jsgotangco decides to cut classes on mdke school of documentaiton
<mdke> slacker
<jsgotangco> heh!
* mdke winds up for a gynormous commit
<jjesse_> why what all are your committing?
<jsgotangco> man im such a slacker these days
<mdke> jjesse_: the packaging for those changes to the ubuntu help system we've been discussing
<jjesse_> ah cool
<jjesse_> hmm how do i kick one of my nicknames that is still on there?
<jsgotangco> do /msg nickserv ghost nick
<nixternal>  /quote nickserv ghost jjesse <password>
<nixternal> mornin' all!
<LaserJock> mdke: did you take care of the packaging diff between branch and trunck?
<mdke> LaserJock: yes, I hope so
<mdke> LaserJock: btw, I made a new package for edgy, was I right to just continue the existing changelog?
<mdke> maybe you can check it for me and I'll ask daniel to upload
<LaserJock> k
<LaserJock> yeah, the changelog should include *all* the releases
<jsgotangco> LaserJock: what's the branch again?
<mdke> in that case, we should be good to go
<LaserJock> for what? developer's reference?
<jsgotangco> LaserJock: top secret project
<LaserJock> the Iranian project ;-)
<LaserJock> http://chem.unr.edu/~mantha/ubuntu/udr/
<jsgotangco> thanks
<jsgotangco> waiting waiting *hum*
<jsgotangco> glatzor: !
<LaserJock> jsgotangco: I'm wondering if I should redo the repo to  just have the .sgml and .ent files
<jsgotangco> oh because we had the pdfs and html right?
<LaserJock> and translations, etc.
<jsgotangco> yeah might be a better idea
<LaserJock> the repo would be a lot smaller
<LaserJock> gah, this project just sucks organizationaly. I so wish we could just make a seperate doc.
<LaserJock> as I look over the Debian version I see tons of changes
<glatzor> hi jsgotangco!
<mdke> LaserJock: are you going to make the packaging guide available from the contribute.xml doc? If so I think we should remove the packaging guide from the yelp frontpage and include the contribute doc, thoughts?
<lloydinho> Hey, LaserJock. I've done a first draft of the Contribute doc.
<lloydinho> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ContributeToUbuntu
<LaserJock> mdke: yes, I agree
<lloydinho> I just put it in the wiki since I don't have any svn commit access.
<jsgotangco> man that was good sushi
<mdke> LaserJock: cool. This is what the current front page looks like with ubuntu-docs 6.08.1: http://mdke.org/tmp/new-yelp.png, we can just drop the last entry
<mdke> lloydinho: have you been working with the docbook version at all?
<lloydinho> mdke: no, not yet. My secret plan was to try and convert it with the new wiki2docbook tool.
<mdke> sounds good, that's what i did to the participate page to make contribute.xml
<mdke> you've built on the participate page, right?
<lloydinho> Cool.
<lloydinho> In any case, I'd like to wait with docbook until we have decided on the general layout of the document.
<mdke> ah fine, the contribute.xml is there as a placeholder, then
<mdke> thanks a lot for working on this!
<LaserJock> mdke: looks good for now, I think once we get contribute put together we should remove the Packaging Guide from the frontpage
<mdke> great
<LaserJock> it makes me sad to see it go, but that's were it belongs ;-)
* mdke nods
<lloydinho> mdke: It's been an itch I've been wanting to scratch for some time, now. :-)
<LaserJock> mdke: you might want to wrap those long changelog lines next time
<mdke> LaserJock: still time to do that... what is good practice?
<LaserJock> mdke: did you try a test build of ubuntu-docs?
<mdke> yeah, it builds fine. That screenshot is with it installed
<LaserJock> cool
<mdke> (on dapper mind)
<LaserJock> I usually just wrap to something like 80 columns
<LaserJock> and indent
<LaserJock> all the CLI jockey's will appreciate it ;-)
<mdke> is it alright now?
<LaserJock> yeah, much nicer
<jsgotangco> time for me to frag some kids
<jsgotangco> ciao
<mdke> need to do a patch for yelp at some stage to get those documents in the right order... I need to get an edgy system going soon
<glatzor> Hi mdke.
<glatzor> Do have got time to discuss the bug #54774: add dapper-commercial to software-properties
<Ubugtu> Malone bug 54774 in update-manager "add dapper-commercial to software-properties" [Untriaged,Needs info]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/54774
<jjesse_> if i make changes in trunk/kubuntu/releasenotes/C what is the easiest way to get the same changes in branches/dapper/kubuntu/releasenotes/C/  ??
<trappist> maybe do an svn diff and patch the other file with it
<jjesse_> whats the syntax for patching again?  patch -p0 file?
<trappist> patch -p0 < file
<LaserJock> mdke: it seems we need to get a licensing lawyer
<LaserJock> mdke: you're no help ;-)
<jjesse_> LaserJock: mind apply two patches?
<LaserJock> no problemo, are they on the ML?
<jjesse_> yes sir :)
<LaserJock> doh, right below Matt's email
<jjesse_> grin :)
<jjesse_> thanks for applying that one :)
<LaserJock> jjesse_: the second one is for the dapper branch, right?
<LaserJock> jjesse_: done, and done
<jjesse_> LaserJock: thanks :)
<mdke> glatzor: I have a few moments
<mdke> glatzor: from your first comment it seems that adding the repository to sources.list is the best way, right?
<mdke> LaserJock: grrr
<mdke> I am the law!
<LaserJock> mdke: hehe
<LaserJock> mdke: my understanding was that with the dual license a derivative license was and/or so you could do GFDL *or* CC-BY-SA *or* GFDL + CC-BY-SA
<LaserJock> not that both licenses applied (which would be a problem since they are incompatible)
<jjesse_> isn't the book licensed the same?  i wonder how they figured it out?
<mdke> yeah, that's what our docs say anyway
<mdke> I have a hard time understanding GFDL + CC-BY-SA, I suppose what it really means is that they are alternatives
<mdke> but I don't see how that works either
<LaserJock> "take you pick" :-)
<mdke> say we were to copy something from wikipedia (GFDL) and put it in our docs, would we be violating their requirement that we keep the same conditions for copying?
<mdke> I think we would, because a derivative of our work could be cc-by-sa only...
<mdke> in which case, wtf is the point of having "dual" licenses in the first place?
<LaserJock> basically no matter what we do, it sucks
<mdke> well, we could just have one license
<glatzor> mdke: if we just add it out commented to the sources.list it will appear disabled in the third party list
<LaserJock> sure, but there will always be content that we can't use because of it
<mdke> glatzor: the third party list in software-properties?
<glatzor> if you additionally add a comment to the end of the line, this comment will be used as label
<glatzor> mdke: right
<mdke> glatzor: that sounds like a good solution
<mdke> LaserJock: right, but right now it seems to me there is nothing we can copy, unless it is completely free
<LaserJock> yep
<mdke> maybe mako can explain what the thinking was behind this dual business
<glatzor> mdke: this mechanism could be used for the other self hosted third party repos too. just include a file with the disabled apt line and a comment for each repo (e.g. omnit) in app-install-commercial and place it into /etc/apt.sources.d
<LaserJock> mdke: it's better for derivatives of us
<mdke> LaserJock: like we care ;)
<mdke> glatzor: ok, so that bug should be reassigned to app-install-commercial?
<mdke> we should get mdz or someone to provide the comment wording
* mdke kicks ubuntuforums.org
<mdke> work dammit
<LaserJock> mdke: don't kick to hard, it might fall apart
<mdke> it's a bit slow, keeps timing out
<glatzor> mdke: i will reassign it and change the description
<mdke> glatzor: thanks!
<glatzor> the sidenote is for mvo only
<glatzor> the sidenote in the bug description :)
<mdke> glatzor: thanks, I'll check it out
* mdke disappears for the evening
<glatzor> have a nice eveneing, mdke
<manicka> mdke, some interesting responses from the UDSF
<LaserJock> manicka: where?
<manicka> http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=227819
<LaserJock> cool
<manicka> my thoughts added
#ubuntu-doc 2006-08-03
<bimberi> Anyone about who can rename https://help.ubuntu.com/community/LiveCDCustomization/6.10 to 6.06 ?
<bimberi> Madpilot, Burgundavia ^^^^^ ?
<Madpilot> yeah, I can - give me a moment
<Burgundavia> hmm, seems I can't either
<Burgundavia> mdke: can you give myself and bimberi rename privs on the help wiki?
<Madpilot> is it just mdke & I who've got rename/delete privs right now?
<Madpilot> renamed, btw - now at https://help.ubuntu.com/community/LiveCDCustomization/6.06
<Burgundavia> Madpilot: I think so
<Madpilot> heh
<Madpilot> only reason I've got it is because mdke happened to be logged into the help.u.c server one evening when I bugged him for privs :)
<bimberi> Madpilot: tyvm :)
<Madpilot> no prob
<Burgundavia> wow, seriously non-clueful --> http://www.osweekly.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=2270
<jsgotangco> Burgundavia: have you seen this? http://wildbill.nulldevice.net/wordpress/?p=177
<Burgundavia> jsgotangco: holy crap!
<jsgotangco> wonder if its real?
<Burgundavia> assuming it is not a photoshop, let us fridge that badboy
<Burgundavia> he does give a real location, so it can be verified fairly easily
<jsgotangco> it was posted in my loco list
<Burgundavia> what it lacks in the ubuntu website in the bottom red bar
<jsgotangco> yes its a good "identity" colour since hoary
<jsgotangco> for x86 though
<Burgundavia> that tan with red has been very signature
<Burgundavia> look at the ubuntu brochures
<Madpilot> cool billboard
<Burgundavia> in other news, the GalaxyMage artists have decided to go GPL, thanks to yours truly
<Madpilot> who/what is/are GalaxyMage?
<Burgundavia> http://www.galaxymage.org/index.php/Main_Page
<Madpilot> that looks kind of cool
<Burgundavia> very cool
<Burgundavia> cool, my blog is worth nothing
<jsgotangco> have you heard of the gallium project :)
<Burgundavia> googling
<Burgundavia> http://www.nongnu.org/gallium/
<Burgundavia> hmm, very cool
<jsgotangco> oh crap
<jsgotangco> so its already used
<jsgotangco> https://launchpad.net/products/gallium
<Burgundavia> did Laser_away just register that?
<jsgotangco> yeah
<jsgotangco> but its meant to be a kalzium replacement
<Burgundavia> ah
<jsgotangco> but using kalzium data
<Burgundavia> there is already one of those, albeit dead
<jsgotangco> yeah
<jsgotangco> but we don't code in c++ :/
<Burgundavia> http://www.frantz.fi/index.php?page=software
<Burgundavia> http://www.frantz.fi/software/gperiodic.php
<jsgotangco> yeah but its been unmaintained for quite a while
<Burgundavia> is that the c++ one you refer to?
<Burgundavia> yep
<Burgundavia> what about calling it Perioda?
<Burgundavia> means perodic in esperanto
<Burgundavia> Periodicum, which is latin
<Burgundavia> anyway, just throwing ideas out there
<bimberi_> galzium? ;)
<Burgundavia> Madpilot: you around?
<Madpilot> ya
<Burgundavia> Madpilot: how big is that Jack Johnson concert?
* Burgundavia notes how we don't often discussion documentation here
<Madpilot> Burgundavia, the recordings from etree? I've got several JJ concert recordings, they're all at least 600Mb
<Burgundavia> Madpilot: can yer burn me a copy?
<Madpilot> sure
<Madpilot> I could even dump it onto the ubuntu.ca server, assuming that HD is big enough
<Burgundavia> it is, but would rather not saturate that link
<Madpilot> OK
<Madpilot> Baobab tells me I have 2.7Gb of Jack Johnson music
<Madpilot> ... the largest of which is actually only 517Mb
<Madpilot> do you want audio CDs, or just data CDs w/ .flac files on them?
<jsgotangco> this mono thread has gone waaayyy ot
<jsgotangco> its all about "I" "Me" "My experience" "What I think"
<jsgotangco> if this is how Vista is developed, it wont be done till 2010 lol
<Burgundavia> thankfully, the decision has already been made
<Burgundavia> they are just rearranging deck chairs now
<jsgotangco> yeah
<Burgundavia> somebody might want to point that out, before the water gets too high
<Madpilot> Burgundavia, I still need to know: audio CDs, or everything on a data DVD for those concerts?
<carthik> Hi, Is there a way to upload a text file to the wiki?
<carthik> It is basically a chat log - that I have to rewrite as a tutorial of sorts - I don't want it uglifying a wiki page.
<Burgundavia> carthik: hmm, there are tags for that
<robitaille> carthik,  what I usually do is a cut and paste of the text file, put within  a {{{   }}} pair
<Burgundavia> right, that is it
<carthik> robitaille, nice, but since this is 400+ lines long, I was hesitant to do that. Burgundavia I scanned almost all the help pages - would you please let me know if you find it?
<dsas> carthik: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/PageName?action=AttachFile to attach files.
<robitaille> carthik,  for the meeting logs, I did some very long one that way.  Just use select-all in gedit :)
<carthik> robitaille, let me try that.
<carthik> thanks dsas
<carthik> Boy! the wiki is slow. :)
<carthik> Did both: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/School/Merging-and-Syncing
<carthik> Thanks a lot, everyone.
<mdke> Burgundavia: sure. You've always had them. I'll add bimberi
<Burgundavia> mdke: umm, tried and it failed
<mdke> Burgundavia: as CoreyBurger?
<Burgundavia> hmm, should check to see if I am logged in
<Burgundavia> hmm, logged in
<Burgundavia> no, I am CoreyBurger2
<mdke> CoreyBurger is in the list.
<mdke> not CoreyBurger2
<Burgundavia> CoreyBurger is my wikiname from the old wiki, pre-LP auth
<Burgundavia> yes, I am that old
<mdke> I think you can change WikiNames on launchpad, not sure
<mdke> let me know how you get on and if necessary I can change it to 2
<mdke> bbl
<carthik> https://launchpad.net/people/your-name-here/+editwikinames ?
<Burgundavia> carthik: not sure if that will actually change anything
<Burgundavia> I would rather not play with it until I get confirmation from somebody on the LP team it will not screw up
<carthik> Burgundavia, alright - maybe I just popped in without context. excuse me :)
* Burgundavia banishes carthik :)
<Burgundavia> it is possible the wiki still contains information about a CoreyBurger and will not realize that this CoreyBurger2 is actaully the same person
<mdke> Burgundavia: I don't see any other Corey Burgers in launchpad, you should be fine
<Burgundavia> mdke: concerned about the wiki engine, not lp
<mdke> Burgundavia: the wiki engine only uses lp for authentication
<Burgundavia> it has no memory for these things?
<mdke> I had MatthewEast as my wikiname before LP too
<mdke> not that I know of
<Burgundavia> right, will try it
<Burgundavia> The Ubuntu WikiName CoreyBurger is already registered by Corey Burger.
<Burgundavia> umm, that didn't work
<Burgundavia> looks like LP remembers the old information
<Burgundavia> and corey-burger-merged is dead
<mdke> sounds like a bug
<Burgundavia> likely
<mdke> do you want me to add CoreyBurger2 for now, or do you want to talk to a lp admin about it?
<Burgundavia> either
<mdke> both then
<mdke> what's bimberi's realname?
<mdke> ah, got it
<Burgundavia> night
<Madpilot> night
<mdke> mpt__: around?
<mpt__> mdke, yo
<mdke> mpt: have you tried edgy yet? Wondered what you thought about the new yelp table of contents
<mpt> mdke, I don't have the skillz to fix LP development problems on Edgy, but I've seen the screenshot from GimpNet/#docs of the new ToC
<mpt> It's a minor improvement, but I still think there shouldn't be a table of contents at all :-)
<mdke> I don't think it will sit well with our docs
<mdke> the left hand side does not really tie in well with our docs
<mdke> http://www.donscorgie.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/yelp-new-toc.png
<mdke> however, if we depart from it, we have the challenge of trying to ensure that all those categories of documents are available somehow
<mdke> we could do it by integrating those categories in the desktop guide, I suppose, it would be a fair bit of work
<mpt> That's one of the reasons for having a custom front page, isn't it?
<mdke> I don't follow
<mpt> so as not to have a table of contents on the front page
<mdke> yes, but I was pointing out that if we avoid the table of contents, we will need to integrate all those pages that appear on the left hand side somewhere within our documents, such as in the desktop guide
<mdke> otherwise they won't appear at all
<mdke> it might be a tough task
<mpt> mdke, the table of contents doesn't appear on the front page in Dapper either
<mpt> what am I missing?
<bimberi> mdke: DavidSymons (just to verify) and thanks
<mdke> bimberi: cool.
<mdke> mpt: it's under the heading "Other document categories"
<mdke> mpt: it's under the heading "Other document categories"
<mdke> lloydinho: argh, that support page hurts my eyes
<mdke> proposal 1 seems to be the same as the current one, right?
<mdke> dammit, why is it that whenever I talk to someone they ping out
<mdke> 2:35:58 < mdke> lloydinho: argh, that support page hurts my eyes
<mdke> 12:36:53 < mdke> proposal 1 seems to be the same as the current one, right?
<mdke> gah
<mdke> I need to and get myself blessed or something
<lloydinho> hey mdke, sorry! X-chat keeps crashing whenever people ping me..
<mdke> ah, I'll avoid that
<mdke> lloyd: did you see anything above?
<lloydinho> no. Not at all.
<mdke> about the support page
<lloydinho> I think I'll have to switch to another IRC client soon.
<lloydinho> yes?
<mdke> proposal 1 doesn't differ from the current one, right?
<mdke> I find proposal 2 painful to look at, but I replied on-list now
<lloydinho> Not much, it just adds a link to the local languages support page.
<mdke> right, that link should definitely be there, well spotted
<lloydinho> thanks. About the aggressive colours on the buttons, you're probably right.
<mdke> what's the rationale behind buttons in the first place? it's not something used on other pages, afaik
<lloydinho> Well, to make it easy to access the relevant support options.
<lloydinho> Just one click on the button, and you're on #ubuntu-users..
<mdke> are those irc links supported on Ubuntu? I thought they weren;t
<mdke> but if so, we could have those links without buttons
<mdke> perhaps it is their size that bothers me
<lloydinho> Hmm. Well, I couldn't get them to work properly, so maybe they aren't. But it would be a neat thing to have.
<mdke> I'm not 100% sure that moin even supports linking on an image tbh
<lloydinho> Well, the ones that the art team came up with initially were even bigger.
<lloydinho> really?
<lloydinho> I thought it did. I'll have to check again.
<lloydinho> The size of the buttons are mostly in order to contain the text as well.
<lloydinho> anyway, the problem I sought to solve was, when you access the Community Support page, it isn't immediately obvious where you should click to get support.
<lloydinho> With the big buttons there, it should be self-evident.
<mdke> can we improve that by better headings (i.e. use the headings you have used in the buttons) and adding icons?
<lloydinho> quite possibly.
<mdke> let's try the heading change now
<lloydinho> okay. will you do it or should I?
<mdke> I'll do it directly on the website
<mdke> it's a minor change really
<lloydinho> okay. Cool.
<mdke> what about removing "bug tracker" and "the ubuntu website" sections, they don't really have support at all.
<lloydinho> yes, I did remove that in my mockup.
<lloydinho> I think maybe we'll add a section on "Community Tools" to introduce Malone, Rosetta etc. in the Contribute doc.
<mdke> cool
<mdke> ok, I've done the change, waiting for it to appear on the live website
<mdke> ok, it's there
<lloydinho> is this the support/free page?
<lloydinho> I don't see any changes at all.
<mdke> reload?
<mdke> http://www.ubuntu.com/support/free?action=diff&rev2=8&rev1=4 are my changes
<lloydinho> okay, now I got them. Strange..
<lloydinho> looks better, I think. Maybe it would help if the headers were directly clickable..?
<lloydinho> A bigger target would be easier to hit.
<mdke> you can't link headings in moin
<mdke> we could make them normal (bold) text with links, I suppose
<mdke> or do some css trickery, maybe
<lloydinho> Hm. More technical limitations, I don't know how much hassle it would be worth.
<manicka> mdke, the discussion is taking shape in your udsf forum post
<mdke> for some reason i'm not getting emails from the forum, hrumph
<lloydinho> mdke: it seems that you can link through images in MoinMoin 1.5: http://moinmoin.wikiwikiweb.de/MacroMarket/ImageLink
<mdke> lloydinho: good. Hopefully we'll be upgrading soon
<lloydinho> That would be neat. 
<mdke> otherwise, that macro could be added, perhaps
<lloydinho> well, I suppose there are a lot of ways to do it.
* mdke lunches
* manicka sleeps
<dholbach> hell
<dholbach> o
<dholbach> :)
<dholbach> can somebody add CategoryPDA to the pages links from http://wiki.ubuntu.com/PDATestersDocumentation?
<dholbach> they're all on help.ubuntu.com :-(
<mdke> dholbach: hmm?
<mdke> I don't see that page at all
<mdke> ah, missed a slash
<dholbach> ah yeah, sorry
<dholbach> ahhh no
<dholbach> category won't work
<dholbach> as it's on another namespace
<dholbach> ungh
<mdke> you want us to add a CategoryPDA to the documentation wiki?
<dholbach> I doubt it makes sense, as there are two different namespaces... no?
<mdke> well, it makes sense, but for a different reason. We like topic based categories on the documentation wiki
<mdke> but it won't affect wiki.ubuntu.com, no
<dholbach> ok
<mdke> dholbach: btw links 2 and 3 on the page you linked are the same
<dholbach> fixed, thanks
#ubuntu-doc 2006-08-04
<LaserJock> Burgundavia | Burgwork : you around?
<Burgundavia> LaserJock: am now
<LaserJock> doh
<LaserJock> you missed the ubucon meeting :-)
<Burgundavia> oh bugger, I was out
<Burgundavia> anything interesting?
<LaserJock> it was a discussion to pick topics
<Burgundavia> right
<LaserJock> want me to send you a log?
<Burgundavia> sure
<Burgundavia> LaserJock: cheers
<LaserJock> np
<Burgundavia> wow
<Burgundavia> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/PageHits
<matthewrevell> hey - anyone involved with UWN here?
<mpt_> http://ask.metafilter.com/mefi/43623
<nixternal> well hello there doc team, and how is everyone doing this fine (fill in your time here)?
<LaserJock> nixternal: just fine, how about yourself?
<nixternal> tired ;)
<LaserJock> so am I
<LaserJock> waaaay too many things going on
<nixternal> ya, i just got back from a little vacation with the x-wife and daughter
<crimsun> (rhetorical: why do people always pick early August to throw /everything/ at me?)
<nixternal> hehe, same here crimsun
<nixternal> people are hitting me up to get the UWN out, Switching from Windows guide, some other work, and Interview for the New User Network and the Classroom
<nixternal> i have a very busy week ahead of me here ;)
<nixternal> plus my personal business...which comes 2nd to everything now ;)
<crimsun> yeah, that's dangerous juggling
<crimsun> my priorities were seriously inverted during the last dapper crunch period
<nixternal> great, another email address...like i needed another one
<crimsun> I was spending something like 8 hours a day pouring over alsa
<nixternal> wow, one of these days i hope to be coding and hacking right along with the flow a little more..gotta get the skill level up first though 
<nixternal> im telling you what, Illinois Veterans Grant & GI Bill rock..i just paid for my 9 credit hours this semester...umm $116 out of my pocket for lab fees
<LaserJock> hehe
<LaserJock> well, I had to work 4 years to get that kind of deal :-0
<LaserJock> :-)
#ubuntu-doc 2006-08-05
<DShepherd> hello
<RichJ> hi there
<DShepherd> RichJ: are you guys the ones in charge or updating the Ubuntu News Letter?
<RichJ> i believe so
<RichJ> i did #7, and started #8, but was on vacation for the past week
<RichJ> also, the UWN may also be in the process of being absorbed into the Fridge, however I am not 100% sure on that just of yet
<DShepherd> RichJ: ok.. cause I really like the ubuntunewsletter.. but, as you know already. is behind schedule
<RichJ> ya, i will try and do some work on it this weekend if possible
<DShepherd> RichJ: your the only one who maintains it?
<RichJ> it seems that way as of right now
* RichJ is nixternal btw
<DShepherd> ah
<DShepherd> me pingeth you in ubuntu :-)
<nixternal_> oh ya, i just remembered that ;)
<DShepherd> ah
<DShepherd> ok... well take your time man... and keep up the good work
<DShepherd> so if it gets absorbed in fridge will you still be the maintainer?
<nixternal_> thanks for the support and compliments...i really don't know..the UWN is really mgalvin's baby, but he has been very busy with his personal life, so i tried to step up and help out
<nixternal_> im sure i will definitely have a hand in it, if it does go over to the Fridge
<crimsun> well, what's its status currently?
<DShepherd> nixternal_:  well keep the magic going.. I, and I am sure we, appreciate it
<nixternal_> crimsun: it is on hold, as i have been afk for more then a week due to vacation
<nixternal_> i covered my tracks and sent an email prior to my vacation as well, but due to the constraints edgy currently has on many, i understand why it is on hold, and as soon as I can, I will get back on it
<crimsun> ok
<nixternal_> hiya Madpilot 
<Madpilot> hi nixternal_ 
<Burgundavia> http://live.gnome.org/autoshot
<Madpilot> Burgundavia, watched the Flash movie he links to? v. cool.
<Burgundavia> yes, very cool
<rob> that is very cool, actually
<Burgundavia> night all
<Riddell> anyone willing to do UWN this week?
<nixternal> hey, if possible, anyone give a brief tutorial on x-chat for the classroom in like 20 minutes ;)
<LaserJock> nixternal: you're not going to do it?
<nixternal> im doing konversation
<nixternal> im a kde guy ;)
<Madpilot> nixternal, you still looking for a basics-of-XChat person?
<nixternal> if you are interested Madpilot, speak up in #ubuntu-nun and see what they say
<nixternal> i think it would be good to have someone go over it truthfully
<Madpilot> ...and another channel to join ;)
<nixternal> hehe
<nixternal> alrighty everyone..im going to be working on UWN #8, if you have anything that you would like added, please let me know now! Riddell pinger to you! Anything you want?  This one might be a little brief, but still informational
<nixternal> crimsun, mdke, mpt, robotgeek, Plug, Seveas, sfllaw (hug day will be there), anyone?
<crimsun> hi.
<nixternal> hiya crimsun
<nixternal> we need a "UWN" list so dev's from Kubuntu, Ubuntu, Xubuntu, and Edubuntu can email the "Hot New Stuff" in their version for Edgy
<nixternal> otherwise, their sections in the UWN will be blank ;(
<crimsun> Xubuntu -> new artwork (walls, splash, gdm) proposals
<crimsun> essentially trawl xubuntu-devel for jmak's posts
<crimsun> further work on integrating Xfce 4.4 beta 2
<crimsun> new svn snapshot of thunar adding Trash support
<Riddell> nixternal: all my stuff is up there
<Riddell> nixternal: oh wait, kubuntu meeting on thursday
<nixternal> roger that
<manicka> nixternal, I noticed you joined the wikiforumteam :)
<nixternal> yes i did!  helpin' out anyway that I can ;)
<manicka> great, things are moving along nicely, we just need to get management details in place when we get a few more members
<manicka> I've added a long list of possible pages to convert here https://help.ubuntu.com/community/forum/import
* nixternal bookmarks that
<manicka> I guess the test of whether or not this will work will come form here on
<nixternal> i like doing wiki work late at night (11pm CST on up) from the lappy while chillin' in bed watchin' tv..so you will see me chugging along here in the next couple of days on that list
<manicka> ok :)
#ubuntu-doc 2006-08-06
<Laser_away> nixternal: ping?
<nixternal> pongers
<nixternal> hmmm
<nixternal> PONG?
<nixternal> hehe
<Laser_away> nixternal: we got a couple things in Edubuntu
<Laser_away> nixternal: gee whizz, gimme a sec
<nixternal> cool..im workin' on edubuntu and looking through the list now
<nixternal> we need to get all this into the Fridge somehow!
<nixternal> doing the UWN from scratch is nuts..plus nobody is contributing to the other pages what so ever
<Laser_away> nixternal: Edubuntu has 2 newish Canonical employees and a new Artist-in-Chief
<nixternal> yup
<nixternal> and RichEd
<nixternal> ;)
<Laser_away> RichEd, rodarvus, and AliasVegas
<Laser_away> nixternal: do you have a rough draft of UWN?
<nixternal> it is on the site now
<nixternal> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuWeeklyNewsletter
<nixternal> #8
<nixternal> im working in kwrite and copying over
<nixternal> i hate working with ff and the wiki..as sometime switching from window to window results in data loss for me
<nixternal> Laser_away: do you have any announcements for rodarvus and AliasVegas?
<Laser_away> hmm, not really
<Laser_away> it was all in Edubuntu meetings
<nixternal> ok, RichEd is Canonical...who else was Canonical and who is the new AIC
<crimsun> rodarvus, the new X maintainer.
<crimsun> by process of elimination the latter's obvious :] 
<Laser_away> AIC is AliasVegas who did the Edubuntu "homies" wallpaper
<nixternal> Rodrigo Novo is the new X maintainer for Edubuntu, is he Canonical or volunteer?
<Laser_away> Canonical
<nixternal> roger that
<Laser_away> and he is X maintainer and Edubuntu Technical lead
<Laser_away> nixternal: do you also want "New Apps in Edgy" for Edubuntu?
<nixternal> sure
<nixternal> ?
<Laser_away> hang on, I'm scanning edgy-changes ;-)
<nixternal> lol
<nixternal> just the big ones really..no need for more then 5 i would think
<crimsun> willow*
<Laser_away> willowng (new content filter for SoC project), KDE Edu (3.5.3), LTSP
<nixternal> pony
<Laser_away> opps, KDE Edu 3.5.4
<crimsun> perhaps also mention the pygtk "version of kalzium"
<Laser_away> hehe, the one that isn't done and only started a couple days ago?
<Laser_away> ;-)
<Laser_away> but yeah
<Laser_away> that would be a cool, work in progress kinda thing
<Laser_away> it's tentatively called gallium
<nixternal> speaking of Edubuntu, i am setting up a couple new systems... my neice & nephew got a free gateway computer...and it needs rebuilding...they are getting Edubuntu...and my daughter, I bought her a brand new laptop this week and installed Edubuntu on it for her
<Laser_away> apparently therecool
<nixternal> she got a new laptop, and im still using a celeron 700 ;(
<Laser_away> darn it
<Laser_away> I need to just go away
<nixternal> haha
<Laser_away> my typing stinks today
<Laser_away> crimsun: how bad is it if there is another Linux project with the same name?
<crimsun> name collisions are frowned upon.
<crimsun> the later project generally respects the original's.
<Laser_away> stink
<crimsun> why?
<Laser_away> it's a Carbon emulator for X
<Laser_away> http://savannah.nongnu.org/projects/gallium/
<Laser_away> I really like gallium for our pygtk periodic table project
<crimsun> it's very easily renamed to gallium-chem.
<crimsun> or gallium-periodic
<crimsun> or ...
<Laser_away> hmm
<nixternal> UWN is missing stuff for "Ubuntu" now and thats about it...any takers?  or at least point me to something that should be added ;)
<Burgundavia> nixternal: new packages? beaglefs just got uploaded. Have you covered the telepathy stuff? what about the galago stuff?
<Burgundavia> the security thing?
<nixternal> i haven't gotten anything for Ubuntu yet
<nixternal> just Kubuntu, Xubuntu and Edubuntu
<Burgundavia> the ubuntu will destroy redhat and retort
<nixternal> plus some "Community News"
<Burgundavia> nixternal: those are ideaas
<nixternal> beaglefs for dapper or edgy?
<nixternal> has OOo 2.0.3 been released yet?
<nixternal> i see it is uploaded for Dapper
<Burgundavia> edgy and no
<nixternal> k
<Burgundavia> ah, the upcoming .1 release
<Laser_away> nixternal: for KDE-edu s/Educational/Edutainment/
<nixternal> ahhh..gotcha
<nixternal> i swear KDE.org says educational, but i do remember edutainment ;)
<Laser_away> nixternal: also maybe LTSP 0.93 rather than just LTSP as LTSP itself isn't a new app
<Laser_away> it's just that there has been a lot of cool work on it lately by ogra
<nixternal> gotcha
<Laser_away> anyway, I gotta go back away (working on putting in sprinkler system in back yard)
<nixternal> fun
<nixternal> lord knows you need to water all that sand in nevada ;)
<Burgundavia> nixternal: do you need someone to write up those ideas?
<nixternal> i think i got it Burgundavia, but if you want ;)
<Burgundavia> nixternal: I am working on my room, being a giant disaster, but I can put a little in. Writing happening on the wiki?
<nixternal> gonna work on it here in a sec ;)
<nixternal> i got it Burgundavia, i just needed topics, i can come up with some filler...i am putting it up for review prior to release anyways ;)
<Burgundavia> ok, I will dig into it later then
<Burgundavia> nixternal: have you run your classroom thingy?
<nixternal> ya, did that today
<Burgundavia> how did it go?
<nixternal> actually a heck of a lot better than i ever expected
<Burgundavia> how about writing up a quick thing on that?
<nixternal> 90+
<nixternal> i already got that in there
<nixternal> got the "Classroom" and the "MOTU School" in there
<nixternal> i think it is good for general news...just needed some Ubuntu specifics
<nixternal> galago new to edgy?
<nixternal> i have no idea what song/metal thrash i listened to, but i feel like jumping off the sears tower now ;)
<crimsun> yes
<nixternal> yes i should jump, or yes to galago new to edgy?
<Burgundavia> yes to the latter, we prefer if you stay alive
<Burgundavia> less work for us ;)
<nixternal> haha
<nixternal> gee thanks ;)
<crimsun> (worst Alan Jackson ever, btw)
<nixternal> what?
* nixternal is listening to "I'd Love You All Over Again" by Alan Jackson on The Greatest Hits Collection [Amarok] 
<nixternal> hahaha
<nixternal> arg, is my stupid kopete sending stuff again?
<crimsun> yes.
<nixternal> rofl
<nixternal> i thought that was a coincidence for a second
<Burgundavia> nixternal: what is your timetable for UWN?
<nixternal> less than an hour before it needs proofing
<nixternal> im finishing up some minor details
<nixternal> thank god for Riddell on this one!!!
<nixternal> he did 90% of it prior...im just adding some Ubuntu, Edubuntu, and Xubuntu related stuff...he covered Kubuntu..plus a couple "Press Releases"
<Burgundavia> ok
<Burgundavia> I will flesh out some stuff when you are done
<nixternal> thanks!
<Plug> Do third party things qualify for mention?
<Plug> f.ex a couple of people have been working on new menus, one a port of the SLED slab, one inspired by it
<nixternal> depends on whether it is Ubuntu or not ;)
<Plug> It's Ubuntu, but it's from forums/in other peoples repositories
<Plug> although
<Plug> https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+spec/desktop-slab
<nixternal> Burgundavia: i am saving now, you are free to attack it when you are ready
<nixternal> sweet, Viper is rocking on slab...i hadn't realized just how much he had completed!
<Plug> mentioned Skype with ALSA being available yet?  That was a while ago
<Burgundavia> Plug: not really relevant to the ubuntu weekly news
<Plug> fair enough
<Burgundavia> when it is in the canonical repos, yep
<Burgundavia> nixternal: please check the new apps section now
<nixternal> good deal..thanks!
<Burgundavia> that was just the beginning
<Burgundavia> nixternal: hmm, this is more challengin than expected
<nixternal> lol
<Burgundavia> there is a fair amount that needs to be done to make this better
<nixternal> im watching the ubuntu video of mark and mako in brazil at debconf
<Burgundavia> that must be old
<nixternal> hehe ya
<Burgundavia> hmm, In this Issue should list all the major headings, yet is doesn't
<nixternal> are you enjoying the UWN?
<Burgundavia> is that rhetorical?
<nixternal> #7, i got bitched at for having to much info, and then people saying good job...all i can say, is it is impossible to get it "right"
<Burgundavia> you got bitched at for being too big?
<nixternal> ya
<Burgundavia> right
<Burgundavia> who said that?
<nixternal> lets see..the complaints were:  "to much info", "unprofessional", and such
<nixternal> arg...gotta take care of the stinkin' doorbell
<nixternal> brb
<Burgundavia> right
<nixternal> alrighty
<nixternal> food has arrived ;)
<nixternal> i think for the UWN to continue...we need 4 things..and we have 1 already, and that is Riddell, as he always gets the Kubuntu stuff in there correctly.
<nixternal> but it would be nice to get Ubuntu dev/leader, Edubuntu dev/leader, and Xubuntu dev/leader to submit their stuff.
<nixternal> this makes the UWN easy to do and get out quicker
<nixternal> all someone has to do is go through, add some community news, proof it, and send it iout
<nixternal> or...
<nixternal> create a UWN mailing list, and have people submit news...oh wait, we have that..it is the fridge ;)
<Burgundavia> I am adding some stuff, will do some editing
<Burgundavia> just added a section on soc
<nixternal> ya, SoC has been quiet recently...good to get some news out for them
<nixternal> im gonna grab some food..i will bbiaf
<Burgundavia> nixternal: I am going to merge all the latest packages information into one
<nixternal> rock with it!
<Burgundavia> how do I force a newline without using *?
<nixternal> enter
<nixternal> i don't know of a <br> like tag
<nixternal> arg..manicka left...do we need "Author's Permission" when transfering from UDSF to Wiki?
<Burgundavia> no, because their stuff is under a liberal license
<nixternal> cool
<nixternal> i can wipe some of them out tonight then
<Burgundavia> nixternal: take a peek now, I think I am done
<nixternal> manicka: i will probably go through and do some of the UDSF transfers tonight, as long as I don't need author's permission...i may seek permission for forum stuff on a couple however
<nixternal> roger that Burgundavia ;)
<nixternal> NICE !!!
<nixternal> i really like the top layout so far with the "Educating" and "SoC" headlines
<manicka> nixternal, mdke wants original author's permission on all pages
<manicka> UDSf pages are forum pages effectively
<nixternal> alrighty then
<nixternal> i will grab a couple of pages and seek permission then if that is alright
<manicka> go right ahead :)
<nixternal> cool...on https://help.ubuntu.com/community/forum/import   should there be a column for the person working on it so it doesn't get worked on by more then 1 person?
<Burgundavia> nixternal: I think we should get another pair of eyes on it and then I think we can go live
<nixternal> crimsun: wake up and start reading ;)
<crimsun> I'm at work, dude.
<nixternal> Burgundavia:  crimsun did it in the past..since he is a professor and all ;)
<nixternal> hahahaha
<Burgundavia> crimsun: I do Ubuntu stuff at work and so can you ;)
<nixternal> hehe
<crimsun> Burgundavia: all of my Ubuntu work has been done "at work".
<Burgundavia> *grin*
<crimsun> I just pull these 23-hr days and junk.
<manicka> my thought was that you would indicate that you have sought permission, then indicate when you have it. Perhaps a column indicating that you will wikify it is a good idea
<nixternal> hehe || Wikifier ||
<manicka> or maybe you could notate that in one of the other columns
<manicka> the first one perhaps
<manicka> whatever, either way works for me
<nixternal> cool
<nixternal> maybe an extra column isn't a good idea, since it runs off the page at 1024x768
<manicka> ok
<nixternal> maybe i can give it some table love though with some tips 'n' tricks moinmoin style
<manicka> sounds good :)
<nixternal> i will figure it out ;)
<nixternal> i think better half asleep anyways..so i still have a few hours to go b4 that kicks in
<manicka> my moin moin is pretty basic at the moment, more of a mediawiki guy
<nixternal> mediawiki was on CNN or MSNBC today
<nixternal> i can't remember
<nixternal> it is the largest CMS/Wiki system, and the most popular they say
<nixternal> however, i have only used moinmoin
<nixternal> i take that back..i have used mediawiki, for LUG
<manicka> I've used it a lot in my former life as a UDSF maintainer
<nixternal> Burgundavia: i made sure though that KDE finally got an App added in the Feature of the week
<nixternal> however, maybe a little repository info should be added to it as well
<manicka> you'll see my name as the archiver on many UDSf pages
<nixternal> i have already
<nixternal> looks like you have been busy
<manicka> *were... past tense
<nixternal> so UDSF = done?
<manicka> long story, but I no longer participate there
<nixternal> ahhh
<manicka> UDSf is and will be an ongoing effort
<crimsun> nixternal: do you have a URL for me?
<nixternal> i remember reading over conversations between you and mdke here
<nixternal> of course crimsun
<Burgundavia> nixternal: you mean in universe/main/etc.?
<nixternal> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuWeeklyNewsletter/Issue8
<nixternal> ya Burgundavia, so they know they need the repos in order to install it
<Burgundavia> ok, go nuts
<Burgundavia> not editing right now, eating dinner
<nixternal> i will hit it after crimsun tears it apart
<manicka> it's all worked out well in the long run. I've wanted to get this something like this happening for a long time
<nixternal> ya, it would be nice to get every piece of docs in one location and make it easy to search/locate it
<manicka> agreed :)
<manicka> that list contains every suitable page (that I could see) form the UDSF Dapper section and other forum threads that they have targeted for future wikifying
<nixternal> it is a good list, and im sure it will continue to grow
<nixternal> || Nominated UDSF Page or Forum Thread || Permission || Wikifier || New Page ||
<nixternal> || http://blah blah blah.com || Yes or No || RichJohnson || WikiPage ||
<nixternal> that is an option
<nixternal> actually...i like the way it is with the "Permission Sought" and "Obtained"..that way there we can display whether the author approved it or not
<nixternal> i think that is important to see
<Burgundavia> crimsun: you still digging away there?
<crimsun> yes
<crimsun> ok, proofed
<crimsun> please make sure you spell Riddell's first name correctly!
<crimsun> (correct it if it's incorrect; I only adjusted for inconsistency)
<crimsun> ->work
<nixternal> heh
<nixternal> Jonathan...
<nixternal> hey guess what
<nixternal> Ice Cream Time!!!
<Burgundavia> nixternal: UWN is currently yours
<nixternal> woohoo
<nixternal> i will add some finishing touches to the "kdict" feature and get it out
<nixternal> however, i can't post to the news list at all
<nixternal> so i will post it on every other mailing list, as well as get it up on the fridge asap
<Burgundavia> nixternal: you can't post on news?
<Burgundavia> I can moderate that
<nixternal> no i can't
<nixternal> i can post on the fridge though ;)
<Burgundavia> post anyway I will moderate it through
<nixternal> ok
<nixternal> sent!
<nixternal> good deal Burgundavia, another UWN done and out of th way
<Burgundavia> nixternal: shall we start into a Knot2 report, ala mgalvin?
<nixternal> lol...i just got a UWN email from the newslist, and it is weird
<Burgundavia> you would, but it appears my moderator password is not working
<nixternal> well, i have the kubuntu ones i have been working on..actually just knot 1 so far
<nixternal> hiya rob
<nixternal> From: 
<nixternal> "JiaBin Huang" <huangjb@mail.ustc.edu.cn>
<rob> hi nixternal 
<nixternal> 
<nixternal> Thanks.
<nixternal> that is the email ;)
<nixternal> how did that get on the list
<nixternal> i haven't even gotten the bounce message yet, letting me know it is waiting for moderation
<nixternal> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuWeeklyNewsletter/Issue8
<Burgundavia> nixternal: I thought the new format was to merge all the "new apps stuff into one section"
<nixternal> who knows Burgundavia, but i like the way it looks now
<nixternal> i just use the "template" mgalvin created
<Burgundavia> uhh, 8 is going out as the new style
<nixternal> i haven't read anything about the layout being set in stone
<Burgundavia> ok, v9 changed
<nixternal> hehe
<nixternal> change the template as well i guess
<nixternal> i wonder if i should just go ahead and publish the UWN story i posted on the fridge...you want to look that over really quick and publish it if you can?
<Burgundavia> I have no access to teh fridge
<nixternal> interesting
<Burgundavia> never asked for it
<johnlittle> Hi
<Burgundavia> johnlittle: hey, I think it would be great to fold your video aggregation into help.ubuntu.com
<johnlittle> How would that work?
<Burgundavia> you are currently just hosting flash files, right?
<Burgundavia> do you create them yourself?
<johnlittle> I'm not even hosting them. They are flash embeds
<Burgundavia> ah, ok
<Burgundavia> ok
<Burgundavia> then it is pretty simpe
<johnlittle> Nope..they are all available on video hubs like YouTube and Google Video
<Burgundavia> johnlittle: first is a little thing: can you not link to the ubuntuguide and doc.gwos and instead link to help.ubuntu.com?
<Burgundavia> on your get-ubuntu website
<Burgundavia> plus you should link to ubuntu.com/desktop and /server
<johnlittle> Ok
<Burgundavia> thanks
<Burgundavia> the documentation team enough trouble with non-official resources, especially the ubuntuguide
<johnlittle> They're useful but I see where you're coming from
<manicka> johnlittle, you have a nice site?  .... link?
<johnlittle> http://www.ubuntuvideo.com
<Burgundavia> johnlittle: long term, I am going to see if we can get some hosting on an official server, with downloads in ogg as well as flash
<johnlittle> That would be useful if there's success in getting more videos created
<manicka> johnlittle, where are you from?
<Burgundavia> getting videos created often means "if you build it, they will come"
<johnlittle> Houston, Tx USA
<johnlittle> Theres an advantage in leveraging YouTube in Google though..both in logistics and marketing. It's good to have the videos distributed far and wide as long as you can create a central hub
<johnlittle> YouTube and Google..typo
<nixternal> ubuntu-news list run by corey.burger at ubuntu.com
<nixternal> hahah, and you don't remember your password
<nixternal> man..i wish i could get nixternal@ubuntu.com and kubuntu.org changed to rich.johnson or richard.johnson @....
<nixternal> looks better when you are dealing with "Corporate" people
<crimsun> why?
<crimsun> just register rich.johnson as an LP account.
<johnlittle> Burgundavia: Changes made to Get Ubuntu
<crimsun> nixternal: or ping an admin to get the alias configured
<nixternal> who admins that crimsun?
<crimsun> no idea tbh
<crimsun> I would have said elmo a year ago
<nixternal> i will ask Riddell later, i think he knows
<crimsun> perhaps znarl or spads?
<Burgundavia> johnlittle: looks good, but I meant to link to ubuntu.com/desktop and /server, not the download locations
<nixternal> znarl might be one of them actually
<nixternal> ya
<Burgundavia> maybe say learn about ubuntu on the desktop/server
<johnlittle> ah k
<nixternal> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-news/2006-August/000046.html
<nixternal> i don't remember typing that ;)
<Burgundavia> nixternal: ok, that is very odd
<nixternal> people said they got the email too about the UWN..nalioth to be exact
<johnlittle> Burgundavia: Done
<Burgundavia> johnlittle: perfect, thanks
<johnlittle> Burfundavia: Anything else you can think of?
<johnlittle> heh..oops
<Burgundavia> johnlittle: not currently. If you could post to the -doc list about what you are doing, tht woudl be great
<johnlittle> Burgundavia: I can do that
<Burgundavia> johnlittle: oh, the -doc LP group is for people who have commit access to our repo. But you can freely post to the mailing list without having that membership
<johnlittle> Burgundavia: Yeah I noticed that right after I hit join. Disregard
<johnlittle> Burgundavia: Sry
<nixternal> ya Burgundavia, how come i never became a doc member on the lp ;)
<nixternal> you guys don't like me..been on the waiting list for 2 months
<johnlittle> the small print at the bottom says "No Hippies"
<manicka> lol, I've been waiting at least 6
<nixternal> hehe
<nixternal> right now i give all my patches to jonathan jesse to upload
<nixternal> and now that I am working on the switching guide...he is going to hate me
<manicka> i haven't done a patch in a while... i just send theme to the list
<Burgundavia> nixternal: because you still use the wrong de ;)
<Burgundavia> seriously, it is because you don't bug us enought
<nixternal> hehe
<nixternal> go firgure
<nixternal> Burgundavia: i think i bugged you all more then enough when working ont he wiki...i remember everyone emailing me back saying, please don't let us know any more..just do it ;)
<nixternal> Burgundavia: if it makes you happy, my Edubuntu box runs GNOME :)
<Burgundavia> doesn't count
<nixternal> hehe
<nixternal> ok..i will install Ubuntu Edgy on my other machine
<Burgundavia> there is KDE-edu on that
<nixternal> i need to actually
<nixternal> lol
<nixternal> which btw I am checking out for Edgy
<nixternal> KDE Edutainment ;)
<nixternal> i figured out that goofy issue btw with the news list...i signed the email i sent to the list..so i just sent a new one w/o signing it
<nixternal> if you look at the archives now, it looks ok
<Burgundavia> nixternal: I no longer see an august archive
<nixternal> that is odd
<nixternal> i see it just fine
<nixternal> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-news/2006-August/000047.html
<nixternal> there is the new post
<nixternal> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-news/2006-August/
<nixternal> there is the august archive
<Burgundavia> nixternal: you tagged that with your sig
<nixternal> arg
<nixternal> i forgot to delete that
<Burgundavia> no biggie
<nixternal> heh, i remember it the first time, but signed it with gpg, and this time i remove gpg and leave the sig
<nixternal> i can't win for loosing ;)
<nixternal> anyone up for teaching some xchat tomorrow say around 01:00 UTC?
<johnlittle> Burgundavia: I sent the intro to the docs list
<Burgundavia> perfect
<johnlittle> Looking forward to that screencast nixternal :)
<manicka> sorry nixternal, I'll be at work
<nixternal> if only i could get it to slow down
<nixternal> my screen cast i have been playing with looks like a dude hyped up on some speed got a hold of a kubuntu box
<johnlittle> uing Istanbul?
<johnlittle> using
<nixternal> http://www.buntudot.org/people/~nixternal/screencasts/nixternal.mpeg
<nixternal> xvid
<Madpilot> hi all
<nixternal> ahh Madpilot, i was just chattin' about ya
<Madpilot> should I be worried? ;)
<nixternal> August 7, 2006 @ 01:00 UTC is the next IRC class if you are still interested in doing XChat
<nixternal> which is tomorrow night at 8pm for me
<johnlittle> Wow..you're very productive on speed nix :)
<nixternal> hehe
<nixternal> i gotta figure out how to slow that down
<johnlittle> Once you get it where you want it can you upload it to youtube so that i can post it on UV...the info is on the "Share Ubuntu" page
<nixternal> w/o a doubt i will do that
<johnlittle> great
<nixternal> i want to take the "Konversation" class/lecture i gave today and turn it into a screen cast
<nixternal> that will get posted for you
<nixternal> if and when i get to it
<Madpilot> nixternal, my brain isn't quite functioning right now, but 0100Z is 1800 local - I should be able to make that session
<johnlittle> awesome
<Madpilot> if I can, I'll do an XChat howto/q&a
<nixternal> cool..if you are around you are around ;)
<nixternal> im not sure how the turn out will be for this one..but todays turn out was impressive
<Madpilot> how many people were there in -classroom? I didn't check when I was there
<nixternal> yesterday there was 7 people in the channel, now there is 30+ ...and then for the class at one point there was about 90
<Madpilot> wow
<nixternal> i think future classes will bring a greater attendance
<nixternal> the Multimedia one will be huge im sure
<Madpilot> is the multimedia one going to be 'how to get mp3 working', or more 'how to make your own mp3s?'
<johnlittle> It would be cool if there was a way to build a alittle pplet that launched -classroom into the default install
<johnlittle> a little applet
<nixternal> how to get it working
<nixternal> and how to make your own
<nixternal> we will probably go over Rythmbox, Banshee, Amarok, XMMS for audio, Mplayer, Kaffeine.... for video, libdvdcss, win32codecs, juicer, k3b, kaudiocreator, and more
<nixternal> some xine, gstreamer
<johnlittle> Thats a lot of ground to cover
<Madpilot> don't forget Totem, it is Gnome's default player and it's very capable in it's own right
<nixternal> that is why we will need a few instructors, that will have prepared information they can get out quick
<nixternal> ya totem
<nixternal> your brother hates my use of KDE as it is, and forgetting something in Gnome only drives the nail deeper ;)
<nixternal> he said i am not a doc team member yet because of 2 reason, 1 is wrong, but oh well...they were my use of kde and not gnome ;)  and 2 being that i don't bug you all enough..which i have emails to prove i bugged you all to much at one point ;)
<johnlittle> he has a point :)
<Madpilot> We have a Kubuntu Desktop Guide, even, so not everyone is as anti-KDE as Burgundavia 
<nixternal> hahaha
<nixternal> ya, jjesse and myself are rockin' out kde stuff ;)
<nixternal> oh, and Phil Bull is helping with the Switching from Windows guide as well
<johnlittle> You have Linus on your side
<nixternal> hehe true
<nixternal> but, the last thing I seen from Linus, he had E17 running I think
<johnlittle> I'd probably switch to Xubunut before Kubuntu
<johnlittle> er Xubuntu
<Madpilot> I like XFCE, actually
<Madpilot> if I owned a less powerful computer, I'd probably be running Xubuntu :)
<johnlittle> Yeah I like it alot..KDE apps are great tho
<johnlittle> KDE just bugs me - nothing against it just a preference
<nixternal> actually, i have a celeron 600 or 700 here with 192mb of ram, and a junk 10gb hard drive, ati rage 2 mobility...old pos lappy
<nixternal> and there is no difference running Xubuntu, Kubuntu, or Ubuntu on it what so ever
<Madpilot> Really? wild
<johnlittle> thats surprising
<Madpilot> the Xubuntu LiveCD is slightly faster here than the Ubuntu LiveCD, but not a lot
<nixternal> it could be the fact that my lappy is flat out retarded im sure
<nixternal> kubuntu live cd is horrid, that i have noticed
<nixternal> i try not to use the live cds except for testing
<johnlittle> Gnome and KDE have gotten faster though..back up a year or two and the difference might have been huge
<johnlittle> just guessing
<nixternal> oh they were huge
<nixternal> back up a couple months
<johnlittle> yeah
<nixternal> kde 3.5.2 was super slow
<johnlittle> yeah it was
<Madpilot> even the difference between the Breezy & Dapper Ubuntu LiveCDs was noticable
<nixternal> kde 3.5.3 was the fastest de to load yet for me
<nixternal> however, i just up'd to kde 3.5.4 a few days ago, and the slowness is back a little bit i think
<johnlittle> when is 4.0 due?
<nixternal> beta in october possibly
<nixternal> after edgy is released
<johnlittle> bummer
<johnlittle> Maybe it will make it into Flatulant Froggy
<nixternal> lol
<nixternal> arlighty...me and my lappy is heading up...see ya in a few ;)
<johnlittle> kk
<Madpilot> I thought Edgy+1 was going to be Freeloading Ferret 
<johnlittle> Ferrets are known for that
<johnlittle> wb
<nixternal_> ty
<nixternal_> sittin' here watching VH1 Classic in bed...now it is time to do my best work ;)
<johnlittle> lol
<johnlittle> I'm going to have another screwdriver..I think my best work is behind me
<nixternal_> haha
<nixternal_> i could go for a Hacker Pschorr right now
<johnlittle> A few of those and you'll sleep like a baby
<johnlittle> a drunk baby
* Fujitsu kicks the wiki.
<nixternal_> haha
<nixternal_> i can't kick it anymore Fujitsu ;)
<nixternal_> my toes hurt as it is
<Fujitsu> Everything else is fine... Just the wiki :(
<nixternal_> it figures..right as i goto do some wiki work it wants to stop
* nixternal_ pokes Fujitsu to kick the wiki again ;)
<Fujitsu> I was reading through specs, and about to make some changes to my wiki page... And boom, it vanishes. Curses.
<johnlittle> Funny I was just trying to start on my wiki bio
<johnlittle> Does it go down often?
* Fujitsu pokes the wiki with a high-voltage prodding thing.
<Fujitsu> johnlittle, I've only seen it down when the rest of the datacentre was, and that's only two or three times.
<Fujitsu> But the rest of the datacentre is certainly still around.
<Madpilot> the Ubuntu servers are generally very reliable - they run a top-quality OS, after all :)
<Fujitsu> Hahah.
* Fujitsu attacks the CC with a stick.
<johnlittle> :)
<Fujitsu> The CommunityCouncilAgenda says not to add your name to the member-proposals list until you're sure you can come to the meeting... Yet they don't announce the meeting time until a couple of hours before it starts!
<nixterna1_> lol
<Fujitsu> It's annoying, because it's normally 1 or 2am my time.
<Fujitsu> But sometimes 6am or 8am... But I never know which.
<crimsun> the machine hosting the wiki certainly is up; the apache process probably died.
<Madpilot> the CC has gotten really bad at figuring out when it's going to meet next, actually - they used to be better at actual schedules
<Fujitsu> crimsun, terrific!
<nixterna1_> i did my member stuff a month ago for the CC, and never heard back from Mako concerning approval..there are like 4 of us waiting for Ubuntu memberships...in the mean time I became a Kubuntu member which is pretty much the same
<Fujitsu> crimsun, is it on the same machine as anything else important?
<crimsun> I'm sure palmer hosts something important
<johnlittle> How difficult is it to get membership?
<Madpilot> johnlittle, not terribly
<nixterna1_> ya, if they gave me membership, then you know it is easy
<johnlittle> lol
<Madpilot> hey, they gave *me* membership :)
<johnlittle> So you don't have to whack a member of another distro or anything? :)
<Madpilot> johnlittle, well, if you bring in the scalps of 5 Gentoo users you're automatically a member 
<Fujitsu> I was going to try to go for membership tomorrow, but they haven't announced the time yet, so I can't ensure I'll be there.
<Fujitsu> I hope I've done enough...
<johnlittle> ahaha...um ok
<Fujitsu> Madpilot: LOL.
<johnlittle> I'm at zero Karma..I don' t think membership is on my todo list yet
<Fujitsu> I've got 250000 :)
<johnlittle> that a fair bit lol
<Madpilot> I'm down under 10,000 karma - haven't filed enough complaining bugs lately :)
<Fujitsu> Heheh.
<Fujitsu> I got a fair bit from a lot of sync requests, but I did a lot of bug triage a while ago.
<Fujitsu> Having some issues there, nixterna1_?
<nixternal_> ya
<nixternal_> im on my lappy here, the other machine is still online and had some issues as well
<Fujitsu> Ah. Terrific.
<johnlittle> Are you running the wiki server on your laptop?
<Fujitsu> Shall I presume that somebody is working on the lack of wiki?
<Fujitsu> Hahahahahaha.
<Fujitsu> And how the heck would Apache have died? I've only made it die once, because I wrote a module that segfaulted.
* nixternal_ provides the typical response.."we are currently looking into the issue you have described. we have not noticed this issue and you are the only person seeing it, please stand by while we check our servers, but more then likely, it is on your end"
<nixternal_> i love when they do that to me on the phone
<Fujitsu> Yeah.
<nixternal_> actually...i love when i call comcast and tell them im having connections issues..then they ask...are you using a router..i say yes, they say which one
<nixternal_> i tell them Cisco PIX 501
<Fujitsu> Ooh dear.
<nixternal_> they tell me they don't suppor that
<nixternal_> no problem
<nixternal_> then they ask what version of Windows I am using..then I get angry
<nixternal_> that is like assuming I ignorant
<nixternal_> am *
<Fujitsu> I think that my ISP would kill me if they knew that I was using a Linux box as a router..
<Fujitsu> And they always do the Windows thing.
<nixternal_> well then I tell them I use Linux..and then they proceed to tell me that Linux doesn'twork on their system
<Fujitsu> It's annoying, especially when you have no Windows boxes on the network :P
<johnlittle> Been there done that
* Fujitsu hits ComCast.
<nixternal_> i let them know their system is TCP/IP and everything works on it..then they say TCP/IP?
<nixternal_> then i get really angry
<Fujitsu> HAHAH.
<Fujitsu> Evening, robitaille.
<robitaille> Hello Fujitsu 
<robitaille> is the wiki not accessible for others as well?
<nixternal_> you got it robitaille 
<johnlittle> Yeah..no wiki
<nixternal_> go nixternal go!
<nixternal_> you lazy bum
<johnlittle> wiki no worki
<robitaille> just when I finally had some time to work on it...  
<nixternal_> anyone watch Final Fu on MTV?
<nixternal_> this girl is beating up this guy big time
<johnlittle> never seen it
<nixternal_> me either, until right now
<Fujitsu> robitaille, it's rather down.
<johnlittle> http://dev2dev.bea.com/blog/wgroth2/archive/2006/07/ubuntu_and_bea.html
<johnlittle> Seems like that article should get some visibility on the team
<johnlittle> er bad wording...The team should see that article..maybe canonical folks..dunno
<johnlittle> Wiki is working
<nixternal_> woohoo
<nixternal_> time to get back to work
<johnlittle> Put down the beer
<Fujitsu> Wow!
<Fujitsu> Yay!
* Fujitsu hugs the wiki.
* Fujitsu hugs whoever fixed it.
* Fujitsu complains about the CC's lack of fore-warning.
<nixternal_> hehe
<nixternal_> when is the next CC?
<Fujitsu> Tomorrow some time.
<Fujitsu> Oops.
<Fujitsu> No.
<nixternal_> when is Mako going to approve those who are still waiting?
<Fujitsu> It's on Tuesdays... Every second, with the next one being this week.
<Fujitsu> About mako, I don't know.
<johnlittle> Did the wiki just die again
* Fujitsu prods.
<nixternal_> ohh lord
<Fujitsu> Looks like it >_<
<nixternal_> i quit
<nixternal_> haha
<Fujitsu> There we go.
<Fujitsu> Up again.
<nixternal_> jeesh
<nixternal_> im not messing with it right now
<nixternal_> im scared
<johnlittle> wiki is wacky
<Fujitsu> It does that.
<johnlittle> One more screwdriver and I won't care
<Fujitsu> And it's gone, I think.
<Fujitsu> And back.
<johnlittle> My form still isn't submitting
<Fujitsu> It's still up...
<johnlittle> yay
<johnlittle> Describe JohnLittle...hrm
<Burgundavia> http://www.flameproject.org/index.php/Main_Page
<Fujitsu> Mmm... Nice.
<Madpilot> Burgundavia, shiny - good luck too them!
<johnlittle> Yeah very cool looking
* Fujitsu scratches his head.
<Fujitsu> I can't actually get it to capture anything...
* mdke takes a look at the scrollback, winces
<mdke> I'm never going to read all that!
* Fujitsu laughs at mdke.
<rob> thats why you limit your buffer :)
<mdke> we need a topic police for this channel
<Fujitsu> Why?
<mdke> because it's impossible to read scrollback with all the off topic chatting
* mdke will try anyhow
<crimsun> ok, we'll be sure to preface all offtopic talk with mdke:
<rob> hehe
<mdke> grrrr
<crimsun> ;p
<Fujitsu> Yes!
<rob> mdke: so how's the weather where you are crimsun?
<rob> mdke: oh sigh. Australian idol has started again ;(
<Burgundavia> mdke: we do spend a lot of time chattering off topic here
<Fujitsu> rob, has it!?
<Burgundavia> nixternal: started in on EdgyKnot2
* Fujitsu makes a note to not notice.
<mdke> Burgundavia: yeah
<rob> mdke: Fujitsu yes, tonight :( 
<Fujitsu> mdke: rob, terrific :(
<Burgundavia> seeking ideas for https://wiki.ubuntu.com/EdgyKnot2
<rob> mdke: wife is watching it
<mdke> guys
<rob> hehe
<Fujitsu> rob, great.
<mdke> repeating a joke 5 times stops it being funny
* Fujitsu apologises to mdke.
* rob pokes mdke, and runs
<mdke> nixternal: reading about your membership of the team, I personally haven't seen any patches from you, if we've missed them, can you point them out in the mailing list archives?
<mdke> nixternal: (the wiki team is a separate matter, for -doc membership we look for knowledge of docbook and svn + some commitment shown by sending patches)
<mpt__> mdke, is there any benefit at all from using the <mousebutton> element?
<Kamping_Kaiser> hm. i am in doc.
<ompaul> Kamping_Kaiser, the idea is to give it an index and then ask you 
<ompaul> do you want to make a script that turns out a mirroring script 
<Kamping_Kaiser> ompaul, thats cool. i dont know how, or i would have done it for the ~6 howtos under my wiki home
<ompaul> I have been playing with it (as you can see) 
<ompaul> okay the index is easy - (or how would I know how to do it ;-))
<Kamping_Kaiser> hehe
* Kamping_Kaiser diffs last few revisions to see whats happened
<Kamping_Kaiser> it 'needs' -backports added as well
* Kamping_Kaiser edits
<ompaul> the mirroring script itself could do with more scripting sys.argv[1]  - [7]  but that is messy so I am wondering if you want to make the actual script totally fancy with the option of choosing the parts you are wanting to include
<Kamping_Kaiser> and the mirror compontent sizes need updating as well. it needs some love :/
* ompaul has religious aversion to backports
* Kamping_Kaiser too, but otehres are not so enlightend
<ompaul> stick it in the line above it - to be added only if really needed etc
<ompaul> okay I am now suffering from hunger of sorts - I will head out and get dinner
<ompaul> back in an hour
<Kamping_Kaiser> ( -backports can be added if desired)
<Kamping_Kaiser> later mate :)
<Kamping_Kaiser> and i'll ramble at you while your gone:
<Kamping_Kaiser> the point of the howto is to give a guide to a DIY make your own mirror script. a script to generate the scipt would be cool (i thought about it, but since i wasnt going to use it, didnt seem much point), but could perhaps be linked to, not the same page. 'go here for auto generating script' as the last bit on the page - make sure they have alreaeyd done it by hand :D
<Kamping_Kaiser> then of course, someone gets the good idea of using zenity/otehr to make a frontend for it, and its just achieved bloatware status in under 3 mental jumps :)
<Kamping_Kaiser> bloatware, but happy-user bloatware ;)
<Kamping_Kaiser> ompaul, !!!!
<ompaul> I am back
<Kamping_Kaiser> :)
<ompaul> in fashion
<Kamping_Kaiser> 1 hour exactly :D
<ompaul> well actually back a couple of minutes but that is another story
<ompaul> my glorious isp bounced my connection
<ompaul> I'll bounce them
<Kamping_Kaiser> buggers :/ wondred why you dropped
<ompaul> ohh if I told you that you would laugh
<ompaul> they change ips once a day
<ompaul> like that matters any more
<Kamping_Kaiser> mine do as well - but between 1 and 6 am. 
<ompaul> I read back over what you said 
<Kamping_Kaiser> *does
<ompaul> it makes snese
<Kamping_Kaiser> *whew*
<ompaul> sense even - it is a bloatware thing I was thinking about
<ompaul> zenity is most likley the way to make it happen alright but I am currently doing all my mirroring on servers :)
<ompaul> not desktops
<Kamping_Kaiser> i dont object in principle, but by the time its that big its no longer a quick DIY script - its a deb itself
<Kamping_Kaiser> hehe. i'm doing it whereever i can pinch bandwidth :)
<ompaul> there is that
<ompaul> okay so I think what I will do is make it that it does not work
<jsgotangco> hey guys
<ompaul> or works for the lts version
<Kamping_Kaiser> hey jsgotangco 
<ompaul> hi jsgotangco 
<ompaul> so that the user should (after all this is non trivial) actually fix the file to work correctly for themselves
<Kamping_Kaiser> heh. thats what my original did didnt it :)
<ompaul> so I will reformat the file a little with ### lines being please edit the next line
<ompaul> yeah but the au. got to me :)
<Kamping_Kaiser> np
<Kamping_Kaiser> hehe
<ompaul> that and main / universe / multiverse / restricted
<mdke> mpt__: I don't know
<Kamping_Kaiser> ompaul, whats about main/u/m/r?
<ompaul> Kamping_Kaiser, well a gnubuntu/ ubuntu-libre would not work with two of them :)
* ompaul whistles
<Kamping_Kaiser> surely thats thier problem ;)
<Kamping_Kaiser> heh. 
* Kamping_Kaiser needs nvidia binary driver - thats all i use
<Kamping_Kaiser> ompaul, i'm a great fan of vrms - used it? :)
* mdke nudges Kamping_Kaiser towards #ubuntu-offtopic
<ompaul> okay the way I am thinking is really this, if a user is going to change stuff there are three things they need to think about, where to pull from, where to push to, and how much space they need
<Kamping_Kaiser> mdke, sorry, back on topic now
<ompaul> mdke, if you want to believe me this is about a doc and what should be in it :)
<ompaul> _if_
<ompaul> Kamping_Kaiser,  right I will attack it, I'll ping you later when I am happy 
<ompaul> then you can come in and remove the parts you don't want ;-)
<Kamping_Kaiser> ompaul, the issue is the whole thing is designed to be changed :) thats why i wrote the script in that maner.
<Kamping_Kaiser> hehe. ok
* ompaul happy, don't hold your breath
<Kamping_Kaiser> you have 1.5 hours, then i'm off to bed - then you have to email me to tell me ;)
<Kamping_Kaiser> ompaul, you working on that page still? can you mark it catagory doco?
* Kamping_Kaiser has half a dozen pages he forgot to do that to.
<Kamping_Kaiser> and catagorycleanup as well
<ompaul> okay 
<Kamping_Kaiser> ty
<ompaul> sorry got diverted by some paying work 
<Kamping_Kaiser> hehe. work! always in the way
<ompaul> it appears a box I need working is off the air
<Kamping_Kaiser> :/ what do you need it for?
<ompaul> I have to download some work from it - I can only do the work this afternoon - it is time based :-/
<ompaul> I'll try it in an hour
<ompaul> after that it is too late
<Kamping_Kaiser> bugga :0
<ompaul> box is not even in this country
<ompaul> and the work is :-)
<Kamping_Kaiser> hehe
* Kamping_Kaiser wishes ompaul gl
<ompaul> right I'll tackle your page keep be busy for a bit
<ompaul> then I'll go back and annoy that
<Kamping_Kaiser> not rushing you, just dont want to add it to cat cleanup if your editing it at the same time
<Kamping_Kaiser> hm. i cant add a page to CatagoryCleanup - does it still exist?
<ompaul> Kamping_Kaiser, is sparc an arch these days or is it something else?
<Kamping_Kaiser> sparc is a dapper only arch
<Kamping_Kaiser> and its only the new sparcs as well (afaik)
<ompaul> I'll make a ref to it 
<Kamping_Kaiser> good idea
<ompaul> Kamping_Kaiser, have a read
<ompaul> I'm off if I can get log onto this web server in .de
<Kamping_Kaiser> ompaul, ok, i'll have a read, tehn i'm off to bed
<Kamping_Kaiser> so gnigh tmate
<ompaul> cheers 
<Kamping_Kaiser> learn to preview ;)
<ompaul> ohh no 
<ompaul> I'll let you work it out :)
* ompaul runs
<Kamping_Kaiser> hehe
<ompaul> seriously if you want to say it and I will fix it 
<Kamping_Kaiser> i'll leave it open and have a crack tomorrow
<ompaul> okay well I'll pop some more effort in - a little later
<johnlittle> morning
<nixternal> mornin'
<nixternal> when is Knot 2 supposed to be released?
<nixternal> nm
<nixternal> im looking dead at the answer
<johnlittle> Nix you mind looking at my wiki and telling me if it's ok format wise?
<nixternal> sure
<johnlittle> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/JohnLittle
<nixternal> for "Version 1" that is good...believe me, you will have 5 more versions before the end of the week ;)
<johnlittle> lol
<johnlittle> ubuntuvideo traffic is pretty surprising. It will be interesting to see where it is by the end of the week
<johnlittle> have you heard of GMANE?
<johnlittle> http://article.gmane.org/gmane.linux.ubuntu.doc/6479
<nixternal> i just heard of gmane for the first time really last night when Corey was talking with you
<nixternal> Burgundavia: Mark sent me an email about the UWN, he is very happy with it! Thanks for the help, as well as you too Riddell and crimsun!
<Burgundavia> nixternal: very cool. oh, and for confusions sake, we refer to Mark as sabdfl
<nixternal> no problem ;)
<Burgundavia> there are other marks out there
<nixternal> true
<Riddell> nixternal: nice :)
#ubuntu-doc 2007-07-30
<mdke> morning all
<Burgundavia> hey mdke
<mdke> mpt: so I've been thinking about how we can go about using this gnome-user-docs vcs-import. Is the best approach to create a branch of it and store it at ~ubuntu-docs? Would we store the packaging for the Ubuntu package in the same branch, or a separate one (given that we'll need to merge changes from Debian for that)?
<ubotu> New bug: #129189 in ubuntu-docs (main) "Instant Messaging Documentation: News Readers need more details" [Undecided,New]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/129189
<mpt> mdke, the answer to your first question is probably "yes", but for your second question you'd need to ask someone with more (i.e. non-zero) experience in packaging-with-Bazaar
<Spads> So how do you folks generate PDFs?  I see lots of rules in the Makefiles using "fop", but can't find it in Ubuntu.
<CIA-14> Ubuntu Documentation: jjesse * r4196 common/authors/jonathan-jesse.xml: testing svn passsword
<jjesse> wahoo got my password finaly reset
<Spads> ah, that was me.
<Spads> was CIA-14 not working for a while?
<jjesse> must not have been
<Spads> because I think I just fixed that as well
<jjesse> cool congrats
<Spads> and sped up svn commits
<Spads> although you guys really should use bzr :)
<jjesse> i keep telling them ;)
<Spads> haha
<Spads> fight the good fight!
<Spads> anyway, sorry that took so long
<jjesse> no problerms
<Spads> so can you tell me how you guys build PDFs?
<j1mc> jjesse: Admiral_Chicago and I were just talking about bzr on saturday.  seems like it's on a number of people's minds.
<jjesse> Spads: I've never used it to buidl pdfs
<jjesse> afk confrence call
<nixternal> whoa
<nixternal> CIA is working again
<nixternal> jjesse: was you commit pretty fast?
<nixternal> Spads: you rock!
<nixternal> Spads: we use Apache FOP
<Spads> nixternal: what package is that in?
<nixternal> none that I know of...I had to build it from tarball
<nixternal> I have been using a different method of late for KDE 4 documentation
<Spads> is that method in the docteam svn?
<nixternal> yes
<nixternal> dblatex is good as well..that is what we use for KDE
<nixternal> truthfully I don't like FOP...it is a real pita
<nixternal> and dblatex is in the repos
<Spads> okay
<Spads> I'll take a look
<Spads> nixternal: where would I see the kde 4 docs using dblatex?
<nixternal> you would have to pull them from the KDE SVN
<Spads> nixternal: got a URL?
<nixternal> they are all over the place... but you can see http://websvn.kde.org/trunk/KDE/kdebase/doc as there is some documentation in there
<nixternal> most of which hasn't really been updated just yet
<jjesse> nixternal: yes my commit was pretty quick
<Spads> excellent
<Spads> nixternal: do you have an example of a URL I can just svn get and build to see a dblatex invocation happen?
<nixternal> Spads: you can try our svn for dblatex... https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/Repository
<Spads> ah, I thought you said that was still using fop
<nixternal> well, you can use dblatex for any document that is DocBook/XML
<Spads> ah okay, I'll just give it a try then
<Spads> the fop stuff seems to have xsl though, and I assume dblatex doesn't use that does it
<Spads> so do you have to use LaTeX styles to affect the PDF output?
<nixternal> it can if you tell it to
<Spads> oh nice
<Spads> basically I was hoping to find a Makefile where I could see what sort of options one passes for a production doc tree like this
<nixternal> we do however have latex scripts we use for KDE docs
<nixternal> I am not 100% familiar with it totally
<Spads> ok
<nixternal> ya, there are so many options, with dblatex and fop...it is crazy
<nixternal> been a while since I last used FOP...probably the Edgy cycle while mdke was on vacation I think
<Spads> heh, maybe I'll poke mdke
<nixternal> he definitely knows fop
<jjesse> do the topic based help docs build into pdf?
<nixternal> I am sure they would if we added the stuff to the makefile
<nixternal> KHC is going to be pretty cool in KDE 4...say you are looking at some help, and you would like to print it out, you can click a button and have it save it as a PDF to print out
<F4EYE> good evening
<jjesse> good afternoon :)
<F4EYE> :)
<F4EYE> 8H52 PM in France :)
<Admiral_Chicago> jjesse: when is the book coming out? soon no?
<jjesse> book is out already isn't it?
<jjesse> i have my copy :)
<jjesse> you can order it on amazon right now
<mdke> mpt: thanks. I'm going to ask dholbach when he gets back from vacation, I think
<jjesse> mdke: i got my svn password finally straightened out
<jjesse> so i can commit again
<Admiral_Chicago> ah okay. thanks
<Admiral_Chicago> so it is out...
<jjesse> yeah i only got two copies this time
<mdke> jjesse: yay
<nixternal> mdke: any bets on how long it takes him to misplace it again? :)
<mdke> nixternal: I had just started typing that... I'll bet 3 days
<nixternal> hahaha
<nixternal> wow, you are generous with 3
<mdke> you going lower?
<nixternal> jjesse: ^^ yes we are picking on you :)
<nixternal> I was going to say sometime tomorrow we will get the "Lets move Doc SVN to BZR" email
<mdke> lol
<mdke> aw man, the download feedback for bzr is still terrible
<j1mc> the download feedback?  what do you mean?
<mdke> the status progress information when checking out
<nixternal> yes it is
<nixternal> it is like it doesn't even match what is really going on
<nixternal> just has the phase 1/4 and updates when it feels like it
<mdke> it's a bit like the Windows one
<nixternal> we just had a BZR developer give a talk at a recent LUG event, and he didn't sound to sure of himself when questioned...it kind of turned me off a bit
<mdke> really? Who was it?
<nixternal> John something
<nixternal> he is from Chicago
<nixternal> Admiral_Chicago or j1mc: do you remember his name?
<mdke> John A Meinel?
<j1mc> yes, that's him
<j1mc> john@canonical.com
<mdke> I thought he was one of the lead guys
<nixternal> ya
<nixternal> orly
<mdke> he doesn't have a canonical email address on his lp account though, I don't think he works there
<j1mc> nixternal: i thought he gave a good talk - answered our questions well . . . even ones about the speed of bzr, which has been a somewhat big issue.
<nixternal> ya, I wasn't all to happy about the response to speed
<nixternal> mdke: he does...he gave us a business card and emails the chicago team's ml with it
<j1mc> he does work for canonical, though.
<j1mc> yeah
<mdke> oh, ok
<nixternal> and he hacks from a iBook :)
<nixternal> eww
<j1mc> what-ever!
<j1mc> ;-)  don't a lot of devs work from the new intel macs so they can see how their software works on linux, windows, and os x?
<nixternal> ya
<nixternal> I would too, but I can't afford one of them beasts
<mdke> damn progress bar hasn't moved for 10 minutes
<nixternal> lol
<nixternal> bzr co whatever && go wait for days
<mdke> haha
<mdke> it got up to about 50% then finished
<nixternal> haha, that is nuts
<nixternal> I think I can seriously check out trunk/KDE in SVN before you could Ubuntu docs in BZR
<mdke> ok, let's try pushing it back to Launchpad
<nixternal> and we are talking over a gig and then some
<nixternal> pushing it is actually not to bad
<mdke> here we go, it starts on about 30% immediately then goes really slowly
<nixternal> what are you pushing?
<mdke> nixternal: gnome-user-docs
<nixternal> ooh
<nixternal> that will take you 2 months minimum for pushing one xml file :)
<mdke> still on 30%
<nixternal> haha, wow
<mdke> it's already appearing here though, quite cool - https://code.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-doc/gnome-user-docs/ubuntu-changes
<j1mc> :-/  that is kind of sad.  at least the bzr devs know that speed is a problem.
<nixternal> that is good they have gotten the updates to appear on the web quicker than 15 minutes like before
<mdke> it's not the speed that bothers me, it's the poor feedback
<j1mc> there's no "version 2344 of ubuntu docs checked out" message?
<mdke> that's not what I want, I want a proper progress message while it's downloading/uploading
<mdke> it's still on 30%
<nixternal> heh, that doesn't sound right at all
<j1mc> heh
<mdke> well, maybe 35%
* mdke beds
<ubotu> New bug: #129327 in kubuntu-docs (main) "Internet section: Add a Internet Messaging section" [Undecided,New]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/129327
<nixternal> lol
<nixternal> maybe when you wake up mdke it will be at 50%
#ubuntu-doc 2007-07-31
<LaserJock> mdke: still up?
<LaserJock> hi jjesse
<nixternal> howdy LaserJock!
<LaserJock> hi nixternal
<nixternal> dude, how come your little boot manager is the first I have ever heard of it?
<nixternal> you guys should have taken a look at the one Qt did
<nixternal> it is somewhere on qt-apps.org
<LaserJock> yes, well
<nixternal> for feedback that is
<LaserJock> it seems there are like at least 3 apps so far that are very similar
<nixternal> orly?
<nixternal> I only knew of hte Qt one and now yours
<LaserJock> but what can I do, it's an accepted GSoC project
<LaserJock> there was the original, GrubConf
<nixternal> well I know the Qt one has feedback on what people would like to see in the comments
<nixternal> and since that is what you were looking for, I figured that would be a good spot to check
<LaserJock> there is this StartUp Manager that I just found out about in my comments
<nixternal> heh
<nixternal> I never knew that
<LaserJock> and a script on the forums
<nixternal> hehe, man I am out of it I guess when it comes to Grub
<LaserJock> pfft, you aren't the only one
<nixternal> hehe
<LaserJock> I remembered GrubConf from my Gentoo days and that's about it
<LaserJock> nixternal: QGRUBEditor?
<nixternal> ya, that's ti
<nixternal> it
<nixternal> I haven't checked its progress in a while...but I am guessing it would have gotten better since I last looked at it
<nixternal> OK, pizza time..bbiaf
<LaserJock> mmmm, pizza
<LaserJock> nixternal: what kind?
<jjesse> how was the pizza?
<jjesse> giordanos?
<Admiral_Chicago> nixternal: if you want me to write the Internet Messaging section of Kubuntu docs, I will
<User603> Anyone here?
<nixternal> Admiral_Chicago: you have enough with Xubuntu docs...plus I have already started
<nixternal> thanks for the offer though
<Admiral_laptop> http://pastebin.ca/640205 how can we fix this problem in the xubuntu docs
<mdke> morning all
<ubotu> New bug: #129423 in ubuntu-doc "totem-xine-firefox-plugin no longer used in feisty" [Undecided,New]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/129423
<CIA-14> Ubuntu Documentation: philbull * r4197 ubuntu/internet/C/internet.xml: Applying Dawid's changes to IM docs
<CIA-14> Ubuntu Documentation: philbull * r4198 ubuntu/internet/C/internet.xml: Correct a couple of typos I missed
<CIA-14> Ubuntu Documentation: philbull * r4199 ubuntu/musicvideophotos/C/musicvideophotos.xml: Update list of Mozilla plugins (closes #129423)
<mdke> hiya Spads. Any progress?
<Spads> mdke: yeah, I've been able to use dblatex with reasonable success.  It doesn't support all tags, but it seems to do enough for now.
<mdke> Spads: cool; I'd be interested in seeing how it works
* mdke wonders what sort of state gutsy is in
<mdke> might upgrade soon
<ubotu> New bug: #129505 in ubuntu-docs (main) "Docs required on desktop search tools" [Wishlist,New]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/129505
<nixternal> mdke: gutsy isn't to shabby...it is hit or miss with OOo working because of a broken libgtk
<mdke> nixternal: perhaps I should wait then
<nixternal> mdke: you can always grab a latest daily and see if it works for you as well...it seems this issue hasn't hit everybody
#ubuntu-doc 2007-08-01
<j1mc> hi all.  i'm having trouble with svn.  i tried to do a checkout, but i got this message: svn: Failed to add directory 'trunk/xubuntu/about-xubuntu': object of the same name already exists
<j1mc> i think that this is because i had to manually add that folder.
<j1mc> any advice?
<Sepero> I just stopped by to let you guys know that you should really implement a "discussion" page for each ubuntu wiki page.
<Sepero> Also, it would be nice to have a "revert to earlier version" option on the history page.
<Sepero> Someone edited the following page in an effort to no-doubt help. Unfortunately, the information he changed was correct the first time. Now I have to change it back manually. https://help.ubuntu.com/community/DialupModemHowto/Intel536EP
<oldmanstan> what about something like the php online documentation? i think that would be neato
<mdke> morning all
<Admiral_Chicago> morning...
<Admiral_Chicago> seems like i messed up my svn repo somehow...
<mdke> Admiral_Chicago: what's the problem?
<Admiral_Chicago> there was something missing in kubuntu/.svn  I have no idea how that happened
<Admiral_Chicago> gave me the error in the middle of svn up, svn cleanup didn't help (svn suggested i ran that)
<mdke> did you use svn cleanup --recursive?
<Admiral_Chicago> i have the repository now, I just blow the folder away completely
<mdke> yeah, I do that too; it's healthy
<Admiral_Chicago> no, I was supposed to? ...
<mdke> it might help next time, I guess
<Admiral_Chicago> i didn't know that command so it should in the future
#ubuntu-doc 2007-08-02
<mdke> morning all
<Burgundavia> morning mdke
<nixternal> morning!
<Burgundavia> hey nixternal
<nixternal> howdy Burgundavia!
<CIA-14> Ubuntu Documentation: mdke * r4200 ubuntu/internet/C/internet.xml: minor wording changes to Ekiga entry
<CIA-14> Ubuntu Documentation: mdke feisty * r4201 /ubuntu/update-po.sh: whoops, one letter can cause a world of pain
<bhuvan> wow, congrats mdke!
<mdke> hmm?
<bhuvan> so, what was the issue?
<mdke> the script isn't quite working yet as it should
<mdke> it creates seriously broken po files (some of which I already uploaded to Rosetta...)
<mdke> but hopefully we can fix it
<bhuvan> ok. i meant, that we get irc alert for each commit after long time. what was the issue with that?
<mdke> I don't know, one of the sysadmins fixed it
<bhuvan> alright mdke
<mdke> definitely good to have him back; and it means the delay at the end of commits is gone too
<bhuvan> yeah
<mdke> bhuvan: was it ok to suggest you as a mentor for that guy willing to work on the server guide?
<bhuvan> sure mdke
<mdke> cool
<mdke> has he contacted you at all?
<bhuvan> not yet mdke. but i'll take care if she sends any patches
<bhuvan> s/she/he
<mdke> bhuvan: thanks
<bhuvan> np mdke
#ubuntu-doc 2007-08-03
<CIA-14> Ubuntu Documentation: nixternal * r4202 xubuntu/about-xubuntu/C/about-xubuntu.xml: Jim's patch
<rob> anyone mind me messing around and sorting out the AMD64 related stuff on the wiki and pretty much writing a lot of it?
<Burgundavia> heh
<rob> well, I'll just go ahead and you can undo my changes if you hate them :)
<nixternal> we already hate them :)
<nixternal> rob: we don't mind at all, actually we are happy that you would do such a thing :)
<rob> oi :P
<rob> nice, since buying an AMD64 box I've had to nut out a lot of little things myself, so it would be useful to others if it were all in the one place
<nixternal> I have been lucky with both of my amd64 boxes
<rob> gotta pick up my kids, going to finish the pages soon
* Starting logfile irclogs/ubuntu-doc.log
* Starting logfile irclogs/ubuntu-doc.log
<rob> well, I hope you guys a liking https://help.ubuntu.com/community/AMD64/FirefoxAndPlugins, the main AMD64 page I'll do tomorrow
* rob goes to bed
<CIA-14> Ubuntu Documentation: philbull * r4203 ubuntu/switching/C/whyswitch.xml: Applying Dougie's patch to move line on security
#ubuntu-doc 2007-08-05
<CIA-19> Ubuntu Documentation: philbull * r4204 ubuntu/ (8 files in 4 dirs): Restructured internet category, updated desktop-effects for gutsy, added new docs in files-and-docs (from Milo Casagrande)
<CIA-19> Ubuntu Documentation: philbull * r4205 ubuntu/switching/C/preparing.xml: Changed spelling of organise->organize (closes #115625)
<ubotu> New bug: #54628 in ubuntu-docs (main) "link to HTML on h.u.c. has unclear function" [Undecided,Confirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/54628
<ubotu> New bug: #48821 in ubuntu-docs (main) "Boot coniguration doesn't apply to powerpc [desktopguide config-system] " [Wishlist,Confirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/48821
<CIA-19> Ubuntu Documentation: philbull * r4206 ubuntu/musicvideophotos/C/musicvideophotos.xml: Changed link to F-Spot guide (closes #128774)
<CIA-19> Ubuntu Documentation: philbull * r4207 ubuntu/add-applications/C/add-applications.xml: Added docs on .run files (closes #118409)
<CIA-19> Ubuntu Documentation: philbull * r4208 ubuntu/switching/C/preparing.xml: Applied Dougie's patch for exporting bookmarks from other browsers (closes #129032)
<oldmanstan> anybody around who can answer a question?
<nixternal> whats up oldmanstan?
<oldmanstan> oh hello
<nixternal> oh oh oh
<oldmanstan> i'm working on the printing doc for xubuntu and i'm stuck on the network printing section, there doesn't seem to be a good, consistent way of setting up a network printer in xubuntu
<oldmanstan> so i want to know if it would be kosher to just tell people to install gnome-cups-manager
<oldmanstan> and have them do it that way
<nixternal> you should ask a Xubuntu dev about that one
<nixternal> what does Xubuntu use for Print Management?
<nixternal> I figured they would have used g-cups-mgr
<oldmanstan> no, xubuntu has its own gui
<oldmanstan> different from the xfce and ubuntu guis
<nixternal> ahh, well then, try and find out from them how they would go about setting up a network printer and what they might use
<oldmanstan> ok, cool
<nixternal> probably go to the xubuntu-devel mailing list with that one...you might get the best response that way from devs
<oldmanstan> oh ok, i just left a message on irc, i'll hit up the list in a second, right before you came back i'd emailed the doc list too, haha
<nixternal> roger that
<oldmanstan> problem solved
<nixternal> that was fast
<oldmanstan> yeah, someone got back to me on irc right away
<oldmanstan> another question, better to tell people to install thing using command line or synaptic? command line seems more straightforward to me, but i dunno
<nixternal> always go gui
<nixternal> people who know how to use the command line will use it, those new to Xubuntu will more than likely only know pretty windows
<oldmanstan> ahh, gotcha
<Jman> \nick Jmanfoo
<Jmanfoo> now that that's dealt with, are there any documentation projects for Kubuntu I could help with?
<nixternal> Jmanfoo: what are you interested in?
<nixternal> myself and jjesse are the 2 main kubuntu documentors
<Jmanfoo> mainly network related stuff, and transitioning from windows to linux
<nixternal> have you taken a look at the current network section in Kubuntu docs?
<nixternal> I am sure that can use some fixing. Especially the wireless section I am sure
<oldmanstan> nixternal: another thing, gnome-cups-manager doesn't create a menu entry in xubuntu, so it has to be run command line, alt-f2 the best way to describe it?
<nixternal> umm, yes...I would probably file a bug though against that if it hasn't been already
<Jmanfoo> hmm, there isn't much on networking here, at least what i'm seeing here https://help.ubuntu.com/6.10/kubuntu/desktopguide/C/networking.html
<nixternal> we don't use the desktop guide anymore
<nixternal> http://doc.ubuntu.com/kubuntu
<nixternal> that is what is being built from our current svn repository
<Jmanfoo> gotcha
<oldmanstan> where exactly would i file that bug?  sorry, never done that b4, would it be on launchpad somewhere?
<nixternal> yup
<oldmanstan> i mean, i know where the bug stuff is on launchpad, but is there a set place to file for certain packages?
<nixternal> you would file against gnome-cups-manager
* nixternal looks
<nixternal> 85 g-c-m bugs...searching for menu related ones for g-c-m
<nixternal> lovely, and lp just timedout
<oldmanstan> yeah, me too
<oldmanstan> haha oops, apparently it's already been fixed, but it calls the menu entry "Printing" exactly like the xubuntu printing icon, it just puts it in the system folder rather than settings
<jjesse> evening
<jjesse> was out grocery shoppoing
<jjesse> shopping :)
<nixternal> shop lifting!
<jjesse> hey don't tell
<nixternal> hehe, check this out
<nixternal> 16:30:38 [  catisonh]  oh, so ubuntu isn't made by Microsoft?
<jjesse> wow
<jjesse> that's funny
<nixternal> haha, I think the guy is a troll...there is no way someone is that far out of the loop
#ubuntu-doc 2008-07-28
<linch7> hi, I'm rel. new to ubuntu and just wrote a small howto for sync. my phone... where would be the best place to upload it? ubuntuforums.org?
<seisen> well you can add it to the forums and add it the wiki if you would like
<linch7> hi seisen, what wiki? :-)
<seisen> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/
<linch7> not sure where to start
<seisen> on the wiki or the forums/
<linch7> well, how do I post my howto on the wiki?
<seisen> login in and create a new page
<linch4> is it just me or the wiki pages are sometimes very slow to load?
<seisen> could be a possibility
<linch4> yes, anyway, I've never edited wiki pages before and I'm not sure what's the best thing to do... i found something that should get updated :-) what's best to do? edit the page and add my comments in it or is there something like a place where I could add my comments for the creator (or others) to review?
<seisen> anybody can edit the page
<seisen> you don't have to add comments but if you want you can
<linch4> ok, i guess best is to give it a go... ty
<seisen> if you mess something up it can always be reverted back to the way it was
<seisen> if you have any qeustions just feel free to ask
<linch4> is it you find it useful to have a "discuss this page" link on a wiki page? I'm thinking, people who don't want (or don't know how) to edit the wiki could leave there comments there... is it a common and recommended thing to do?
<seisen> I think it clogs the page up myself but that is my opinion
<Rocket2DMn> yeah im not a big fan of the discussion stuf
<Rocket2DMn> or the pages that are starting to list contributors
<linch4> actually, i tried to add one but it doesn't seam to work the way i'd like / thought... you cannot simply add a comment; it seams you still need to edit the page the normal way.
<Rocket2DMn> thats right
<linch4> I think I found a bug in the wiki...
<linch4> It says in a template :
<linch4> Please sign your comments by pasting `@SIG@` after them.
<linch4> when I save the page the ï»¿`@SIG@` sign is no longer there and has been replaced by my username....
<linch4> I don't think that's what we want. Anyone know how to make the ï»¿`@SIG@` appear like this on the page? I tried with a backslash before it but didn't work.
<linch4> another question: is there such thing as a test page? where I can test my syntax out? .... isn't it prone to abuse if anyone can create pages in the wiki?
<linch4> can I just create any kine of page  (e.g. /test030483) and try my syntax there?
<Rocket2DMn> what exactly are you trying to test
<Rocket2DMn> if yo uare working on a wiki page you can click the Preview button
<Rocket2DMn> what page are you looking at for that @SIG@
<seisen> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/WikiSandBox
<linch4> yes, in the case of the ï»¿`@SIG@` however it displayed ï»¿`@SIG@` in the preview and then changed to myusername in the real page... the ï»¿`@SIG@` was then gone for ever from the edit page.
<linch4> ty for the sandbox :-)
<linch4> the page I was edding is: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/NokiaEvolutionBluetoothSyncing/PageDiscussion
<Rocket2DMn> yeah i think thats how its supposed to work
<Rocket2DMn> note that wiki.ubuntu.com and help.ubuntu.com are using different versions of the wiki software, so some things are different, like linking
<linch4> ok... will work around it by typing ï»¿`@SIG@` with spaces like ï»¿` @ S I G @ `
<linch4> ty
#ubuntu-doc 2008-07-30
<Cannelle> Hi guys... Is Ubuntu Team interested in translation services English---> French
#ubuntu-doc 2008-07-31
<Rocket2DMn> #ubuntu-h.u.c.
<Rocket2DMn> oops sorry
<DanielRM> Is there a reason for apt-get being used in the documentation in the commands for package management in the terminal?
<jpds> DanielRM: 1) It works. 2) People have reported that aptitude recommends odd things like removing half their system.
<DanielRM> jpds: 1) aptitude also works and doesn't result in orphaned packages to boot. 2) source?
<jpds> DanielRM: Various IRC chats I've seen.
<DanielRM> Ah. Anecdotal evidence.
<DanielRM> Meh.
<DanielRM> jpds: how often was this aptitude's fault?
<jpds> *shrug*
<DanielRM> jpds: ...
<jpds> DanielRM: Personally, I've only ever used apt-get.
<DanielRM> In a majority of cases there's not much reason for using apt-get, though.
#ubuntu-doc 2008-08-01
<flaccid> has nixternal been around?
<flaccid> i guess he'll be on later
<Burgundavia> flaccid: is early morning eastern US time
<flaccid> np
<flaccid> i just noticed http://www.kubuntu.org/doc/index.php is broken
<flaccid> looks like php is not parsing and wrong mime type being outputted
<BindO> hi sorry bugging, where should I go for help with kdm on kubuntu hardy ?
<wallan> does anyone have any advice on linking to the official docs from the community wiki? i don't want the link to break when the version changes.
<seisen> what exactly are you linking from th official docs?
<wallan> i was thinking about linking from https://help.ubuntu.com/community/InternetApplications to https://help.ubuntu.com/8.04/internet/C/web-apps.html
<seisen> I not really sure how exactly do to that wallen
<wallan> fair enough! i'll just add a link to https://help.ubuntu.com/, with instructions to navigate to the relevant section
<wallan> can someone revert https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Applications to revision 73, please?
<wallan> anyone?
<wallan> anyone there who can revert a community wiki page?
<Flannel> wallan: Whats up with it?
 * Flannel is looking
<wallan> this page here: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Applications
<Flannel> wallan: You can revert you know.
<wallan> i keep getting this: 'You are not allowed to revert this page!'
<wallan> as for my reasons for wanting to revert the page: the content from the page has been moved somewhere else, and has been revised substantially. i think there are some major problems with the way this material is being developed. i've spoken with the person who's making the changes, and he's consented to my suggestion that i should continue the old page in a parallel for the time being.
<Flannel> wallan: Hmm, interesting. Well, you can do it the old fashioned way:  Raw view of rev 73, and copy/paste into a new rev
<wallan> ah, hadn't seen the raw text option. great stuff. will do it that way. thanks Flannel!
<Flannel> wallan: just make sure in the comment you write "reverting to 73" or whatever, or people will scratch their heads.
<wallan> yeah, sure. :)
<leviwine> hi, my garbage and the wheater-information is not available. and I can't add it by the panel-menu. can you helf me?
#ubuntu-doc 2008-08-02
<pwnguin> what license is the wiki under?
<pwnguin> im thinking of suggesting that the fedora project for a page for their own ends, but i wanted to make sure it was actually... okay
<Rocket2DMn> the wiki engine is MoinMoin
<pwnguin> ok...
<Rocket2DMn> according to https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/License the content is released under Creative Commons Attribution ShareAlike
<pwnguin> there we go
<Burgundavia> pwnguin: the wiki is public domain
<pwnguin> so the licenesing is a lie?
<Burgundavia> no, the wiki is not the released docs
<pwnguin> is the wiki team seperate from -doc?
<Old_Soldier> forums are cc-bysa2.5 ubuntu docs/official help are ccbysa3.0 now wiki is licensed as.... wait let me do an edit and i'll tell you
<Burgundavia> Old_Soldier: wiki is public domain
<Old_Soldier> then it needs to be changed. when you edit you agree that you are licensing as ccbysa3.0
<Old_Soldier> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/License
<jjesse> thats what the wiki nis licensed under
<jjesse> cc-by-sa
<Burgundavia> oh, I forgot that
<Burgundavia> the main wiki.ubuntu.com is public domain, the help wiki is not
<flaccid> http://doc.ubuntu.com/kubuntu/ hmm
#ubuntu-doc 2008-08-03
<mdke> popey: around?
<popey> mdke: of course :)
<mdke> popey: yeah, I figured
<mdke> popey: can you access the internet from lanthanum? i can't seem to be able to
<popey> no, its firewalled
<mdke> damn. so I take it that screencasts doesn't need internet access?
<popey> what are you trying to achieve?
<mdke> bzr checkout lp:ubuntu-doc
<popey> no
<popey> i tend to do that on another server I have in the same dc and then scp it over
<popey> well, tar it up and scp it over
<mdke> ok, that's a pain
<popey> its possible you might be able to get a firewall rule to allow lanthanum to talk to lp.net only
<mdke> I'll ask. It always used to work in the past
<popey> how long ago?
<mdke> well, the last time I touched it would have been about april I guess :)
<popey> well, there is another way :)
<mdke> what's that?
<popey> scp reverse tunnel socks proxy
<mdke> bless you
<popey> :)
<mdke> I wonder if bzr checkout can be done over sftp without requiring lp authication
<mdke> no, that doesn't work
<mdke> hmm, nothing works at all
<mdke> i love the idea of just closing off a server without asking the people who use it
<popey> i thought it always was
<popey> at least all the time it's been in the canonical dc
<mdke> well, it must have worked at some stage, because i used to download the branches fine
<mdke> maybe I'm doing something wrong
<mdke> whoa
<mdke> checkout https://launchpad.net/ubuntu-doc
<jpds> I saw that a few days ago.
<technomensch> hello all
<technomensch> is there anyone here that is looking for a wiki project to work on, I could use some assistance
<KhaoticMind> what kind of wiki technomensch?
<technomensch> ubu wiki....community docs
<technomensch> I'm working on organizing the wifi docs and its getting a tad time consuming
#ubuntu-doc 2009-07-27
* You're now known as ubuntulog
<licio> I've one question! why just have translated desktop guide pages until 6.10? Actually just for 6.06 and 6.10
#ubuntu-doc 2009-07-28
<Prentice> hi, Is there any admins here i can talk to
<Prentice> I need to speek to an admin
<Prentice> HELLLOOOOO
<Prentice> 4  FUCK SAKE
#ubuntu-doc 2009-07-29
<Flannel> We're getting more spam.  Replacement of those files I removed the other day, from https://wiki.ubuntu.com/HelpOnInstalling/hu
<Flannel> Can we ban that user or something?
<Flannel> IP maybe? Also, found this other one: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CarInsurance/lxzdvavmtmkqeddveibzn and also some just from /CarInsurance
<Flannel> deleting now.  But it'd be nice if we could make those pages not come back
<Flannel> (since the have a stake inmaking those same URLs come back, because they've got those links out there)
<Flannel> Meh.  Wiki spam protection is foiling my efforts!
<Rocket2DMn> Flannel, if you find stuff on help.ubuntu.com/community, there are a few of us who can delete those
<Rocket2DMn> any of these people - https://help.ubuntu.com/community/EditorGroup
<Flannel> Rocket2DMn: this is on wiki.ubuntu.com
<Flannel> and, delete the people? or just the uploads?
<Rocket2DMn> yeah i know, im just letting you know in case you do see some on h.u.c since not everybody can delete from there
<Flannel> gotcha.
<Rocket2DMn> to delete the people you have to get a LP admin to disable the account
<Rocket2DMn> ive been housecleaning the community docs tonight
<Flannel> I've gotten all of the viruses/whatever from wiki.ubuntu.com that showed up in RecentChanges, but that's only a few days.
<Rocket2DMn> cool, thanks for your help
<mdke_> Flannel: you might be able to report the users to the Launchpad administrators and see if they can be banned on IP
<raboof> 'man ulimit' seems a tiny bit misleading: 'ulimit' is actually provided by your shell, and 'man bash' (for example) might reveal much more functionality than 'man ulimit'
<raboof> perhaps this should be mentioned in 'man ulimit'?
#ubuntu-doc 2009-08-01
<Matt_91> io non riesco piÃ¹ a cambiare la pass del io accaunt, vado qui: http://wiki.ubuntu-it.org/PreferenzeUtente
<Matt_91> e po?
<Matt_91> sapete il link della quida del terminale dove spiega il comando cd??
<Matt_91> io dovrei inserire dei link nel wiki, qualcuno mi aiuta
<Matt_91> mi servirebbero dei link per il terminale e per il comando cd, ma non li trovo
<Rocket2DMn> Matt_91, do you speak english?
<Rocket2DMn> something about the wiki and a bad command?
<Matt_91> i speak elementary english
<Matt_91> why?
<Rocket2DMn> that's ok, what can we do to help you?
<Matt_91> thanks, but I resolved
<Rocket2DMn> oh, ok
<Matt_91> I make a syntax error
<Rocket2DMn> hehe, a common problem at the command line :)
<Matt_91> thank you, bye
<Matt_91> to work on the command line is easy to make errors
<Rocket2DMn> no problem
<Matt_91> haha, I have wrong the channel! the Italian is #ubuntu-it-doc
<Matt_91> that's why you answered me in English!
<Matt_91> now I enter the Italian channel:-)
#ubuntu-doc 2009-08-02
<Rocket2DMn> hey guys, as part of firewall documentation re-org, I'm gonna move the page on Uncomplicated Firewall
<Rocket2DMn> should I name it UFW or Ufw ?
<Rocket2DMn> e.g. https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UFW
<Rocket2DMn> Same question for the iptables page - probably call it Iptables ?
<Rocket2DMn> hey DougieRichardson
<Rocket2DMn> can you try and confirm a bug for me?
<DougieRichardson> hey rocket2dmn
<DougieRichardson> yes
<Rocket2DMn> bug 408083
<ubot4> Launchpad bug 408083 in ubuntu-docs "Community Docs surge protection is too restrictive" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/408083
<DougieRichardson> just looking
<Rocket2DMn> thanks
<DougieRichardson> Refreshed it five times in quick succession and haven't tripped it off - how about you?
<Rocket2DMn> really? I tripped it fairly easily
<Rocket2DMn> a friend of mine on the beginners team was able to reproduce it, too
<Rocket2DMn> i havent been able to view all icons on the IconsPage for probably a year
<DougieRichardson> Maybe I'm missing something
<Rocket2DMn> nah, i dont think so, its supposed to be fairly straightforward to reproduce
<Rocket2DMn> try clearing your cache and refreshing
<DougieRichardson> OK
<DougieRichardson> No warnings but the images aren't displayed, only their alt text.
<Rocket2DMn> yeah, right click and View Image on one of them
<Rocket2DMn> one that doesnt show that is
<technomensch> intermittent displaying the icons for me as well.  FF, Chrome, IE 8.  never been able to track down cause
<Rocket2DMn> hey Marc
<technomensch> yo
<Rocket2DMn> youve experienced this problem then, too?
<DougieRichardson> hey Marc
<technomensch> ::nod::  it was especially annoying when I was doing the revamp on /Teams
<DougieRichardson> brb - officer commanding household calling
<Rocket2DMn> well, glad i'm not the only one
<technomensch> dittp
<Rocket2DMn> another quirk I've been experiencing for quite some time is that Tables don't always display all borders
<technomensch> ayup
<technomensch> seeing that as well
<Rocket2DMn> Hmm, not sure if that problem is related
<Rocket2DMn> ive tried everything to fix it, but nothing has worked
<Rocket2DMn> i just figured my FF profile was whacked
<technomensch> nope
<technomensch> very intermittent
<technomensch> and rando
<technomensch> happens in all 3 browsers
<Rocket2DMn> for me its pretty regular that borders dont show
<Rocket2DMn> its actually predictable for me
<Rocket2DMn> for instance, the big table on this page - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BeginnersTeam/FocusGroups/Padawan
<Rocket2DMn> always missing the same parts of the borders
<technomensch> I see just one piece of border missing
<technomensch> ok
<technomensch> now I'm seeing more
<technomensch> in chrome under quiz status
<Rocket2DMn> yeah, and another large one missing between Bodsda and jamesrfla rows
<technomensch> nope, but missing lower border of gastly under seeking masters
<Rocket2DMn> hmm, i have that one, but something is messed up
<technomensch> sdennie, nhandler, nhasian, forestpixie, LeAstrale
<technomensch> complete line is missing under jamesfla
<technomensch> and above ajmorris
<technomensch> I mean paultag
<Rocket2DMn> i see differently, but its the same problem
<technomensch> in ie, only line issues are in the last column
<technomensch> who knows what rendering issues it might be FF
<Rocket2DMn> quite possible
<Rocket2DMn> well if somebody could confirm that bug i posted, that would be great
<Rocket2DMn> it could potentially be a Wishlist item, but i actually see it as a true bug b/c it prevents you from using the system
<Rocket2DMn> DougieRichardson, i'm working with bodhi.zazen on re-org of firewall related pages
<Rocket2DMn> I'm going to move this page - https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Uncomplicated_Firewall_ufw
<Rocket2DMn> I'm thinking of putting it at UFW - does that seem right to you?
<Rocket2DMn> rather than "ufw" or "Ufw"
<Rocket2DMn> I made a Gufw page a bit ago - https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Gufw
<DougieRichardson> rocket2dmn: OK bodhi mentioned something about it
<DougieRichardson> if people know it as ufw I can't see a problem with that. I prefer uppercase for acronyms.
<DougieRichardson> oh ffs she's shouting me again - brb
<Rocket2DMn> Yeah I prefer uppercase, too.  In the case of ufw it is almost always referred to in lowercase, but that isn't good wiki syntax
<Rocket2DMn> Gufw makes sense though b/c that is what it is actually called
<popey> evening all
<Rocket2DMn> I'll stick with UFW for the ufw page then, I already have a redirect set from there, but I'll swap it with the existing page later
<Rocket2DMn> hi popey
<starcraftman> Rocket2DMn Ya, I think I see that icon bug your talking about, tables too. Didn't notice that before.
<starcraftman> lo' popey
<Rocket2DMn> yeah starcraftman , the image problem is a much bigger issue than the table one, that is just a minor rendering defect that i can look over.  but missing images causes problems
<starcraftman> Rocket2DMn: Right, I can definitely see how the image problem could really cripple some pages. Meetings soon, who's gonna be controlling the bot?
<Rocket2DMn> that's a good questions starcraftman , i have no idea.  I don't think mdke_ is here
<mdke_> just arrived
<Rocket2DMn> cool, wb and long time no see mdke
<starcraftman> Right on time mdke
 * DougieRichardson waves to mdke
<mdke> yeah, hi Rocket2DMn
 * andrew_sayers doffs his cap
 * mdke waves back to DougieRichardson 
<DougieRichardson> shall we get started?
<DougieRichardson> mdke are you doing the business?
<mdke> ok, let's move to #ubuntu-meeting
<DougieRichardson> hey dinda
<dinda> DougieRichardson: hey there!
 * DougieRichardson waves to Dinda
<DougieRichardson> You _just_ missed a discussion on the adoption of DITA and Mallard
<dinda> is there a doc team meeting today?  or did I miss it?
<DougieRichardson> its on now in ubuntu-meeting
<dinda> okay, heading there now
<Rocket2DMn> wb dsas , team meeting in #ubuntu-meeting right now
<dsas> thanks Rocket2DMn, think DougieRichardson needs to update his identica notice!
<Rocket2DMn> haha, blame UTC for being confusing
<DougieRichardson> what the one that says now?
<DougieRichardson> lol
<dsas> DougieRichardson: the one that says in #ubuntu-docs :p
<DougieRichardson> dsas no it doesn't!
<dsas> uhmm
<dsas> my eyes must be broke. sorry.
<DougieRichardson> lol
 * popey is off to get an early night.. nn DOCrs
<mdke> you mean transfer to popey2
<mdke> Shane_Fagan: shoot
<Rocket2DMn> mdke, question for you
<popey> :)
<Rocket2DMn> mdke, do we still want to keep existing "homepages" on h.u.c?  Or should they be deleted?
<Shane_Fagan> Ok well im just really crap at docbook and im trying to fix up the video editing software because it sucks and its out of date
<mdke> Rocket2DMn: tricky one
<Rocket2DMn> i know.  Last summer you said we could leave them for the time being
<mdke> Rocket2DMn: I'm not 100% sure - I guess leaving them is the easiest
<Rocket2DMn> Yeah, a bit messy sometimes though
<mdke> or moving them to the team wiki and putting a redirect?
<Rocket2DMn> we don't need a final decision or anything right now
<Rocket2DMn> I'm not a fan of redirecting homepages
<mdke> Shane_Fagan: ok, what issues have you had?
<Shane_Fagan> mdke: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ScreenCasts/VideoEditing I just want to make a good page for the system docs
<Rocket2DMn> most are just old and dont have a matching entry on w.u.c.  we can leave them for now i guess.  i can ask in another year, or you can let me know if you change your mind
<Rocket2DMn> cheers
<mdke> heh
<mdke> Rocket2DMn: I'm more than open to ideas
<Rocket2DMn> ill see what i can come up with mdke , ill get back to you on this subject
<mdke> :)
<mdke> Shane_Fagan: ok
<Shane_Fagan> mdke: Then look at the page in the system docs for the same thing https://help.ubuntu.com/9.04/musicvideophotos/C/video-editing.html
<mdke> ok
<Shane_Fagan> Its all on bug #378248
<ubot4> Launchpad bug 378248 in ubuntu-docs "Video editing docs need work" [Undecided,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/378248
<Shane_Fagan> The thing is that there are 2 main video editors pitivi and kino and they both do similar things the only difference is that kino has to convert the files that the user is editing to .dv files
<Shane_Fagan> Oh and kdenlive
<mdke> Shane_Fagan: I'll review your amended patch asap but from memory the docbook in the previous version was fine
<Shane_Fagan> it was only one line and it didnt really explain the software
 * mdke nods
<Shane_Fagan> mdke: I need to submit a better patch than the one attached there
<mdke> Shane_Fagan: ok - it's quite a difficult subject I agree, because it's not obvious how to differentiate between the different editors
<mdke> I wonder if we should just be recommended the best one, and seek to document that more fully, hopefully referring to its existing documentation
<Shane_Fagan> mdke: well id recommend pitivi myself after using that for a while
<mdke> that's the recommended gnome app, isn't it?
<Shane_Fagan> Yep
<mdke> sounds good
<mdke> does it have online documentation that could be linked to?
<Shane_Fagan> Hmmm ill look
<mdke> I guess it has system documentation too, but it's difficult to link to that because it isn't installed by default
<Shane_Fagan> Got it http://www.pitivi.org/wiki/Manual
<Shane_Fagan> Its a little outdated
<mdke> ok
<Shane_Fagan> mdke: Ill try whip something up tomorrow, ill attach it to the bug and ping you or dougie
<mdke> still better than nothing, I suspect
<mdke> Shane_Fagan: good plan, thanks
<mdke> if you attach it to the bug, it'll get reviewed
<Shane_Fagan> yep I know the routine
<mdke> cool, thanks
<mdke> bedtime for me
<Shane_Fagan> nn
#ubuntu-doc 2010-08-02
<zkriesse> hello mistrynitesh
<mistrynitesh> hey zkriesse ... sorry, didn't notice
<zkriesse> lol
<zkriesse> It's ok
<zkriesse> I didn't notice you reply so we're even mistrynitesh
<mistrynitesh> yo! so whats the matter?
<zkriesse> Nothing
<zkriesse> I was saying hellp
<zkriesse> "hello"
<mistrynitesh> okay
<zkriesse> So "Hello"
<zkriesse> lol
<mistrynitesh> Hi!
<zkriesse> Sorry if that bothered
<mistrynitesh> :D
<mistrynitesh> not at all
<zkriesse> Argh I can't type tonight!!!
<mistrynitesh> I was about to say good morning
<zkriesse> lol
<zkriesse> It's 2 am for me
<zkriesse> Ok I'm off to play some urban terror/then bed
<mistrynitesh> see you later then
<leagris> Hello, what is the official acceptable policy about promoting and providing other support chat services for ubuntu? I joined a jabber.org channel that was created by an individual. Would it be appropriate to spread word about it and have it documented somewhere in community wiki? It is an XMPP protocl chat users can join with telepathy or pidgin here xmpp://conference.jabber.org/ubuntu
#ubuntu-doc 2010-08-03
<leagris> hello, any-one here reading?
<KE1HA> I am, but not allot happening :-)
<leagris> :)
<leagris> KE1HA: I wondered about what is the official acceptable policy about promoting and providing other support chat services for ubuntu? I joined a jabber.org channel that was created by an individual. Would it be appropriate to spread word about it and have it documented somewhere in community wiki? It is an XMPP protocl chat users can join with telepathy or pidgin here xmpp://conference.jabber.org/u
<leagris> buntu
<leagris> I really thing #ubuntu is overcrowded to be en efficient channel. Summer help redince number of users but, in other times, this makes reading discussions there a mess
<leagris> reduce
<KE1HA> leagris, I think the ubuntu channels and wikis are all about Ubuntu, so i dont think they'd go for that.
<j1mc> nhandler: i was away at yoga class, but i read my irc log of the mtg
<zkriesse> hello trijntje
<trijntje> hi
<leagris> hello zkriesse trijntje
#ubuntu-doc 2010-08-05
<Traveler8> I found a bug on Ubuntu 10.3LTS
<Traveler8> It is quite strange, periodically, upon reboot the system fails to locate the BCM4311 driver. If I turn off the system for five minutes and reboot, it finds the dedevice
<vish> !support | Traveler8
<ubot2> Traveler8: The official ubuntu support channel is #ubuntu. Also see http://ubuntu.com/support and http://ubuntuforums.org
<Traveler8> Is there a place to log the bug, it would be useful to someone using Ubuntu 10.3LTS
<vish> !bug > Traveler8
<ubot2> Traveler8, please see my private message
<Traveler8> sure
<Traveler8> I am going to ubuntuforums, thanks
<Traveler8> exit
#ubuntu-doc 2010-08-06
<andrew_46> Is this a bad place to ask about a problem logging on to the Ubuntu wiki? I am trying to associate andrew.46 with https://launchpad.net/~andrew.46 via OpenID so I can continue work on https://help.ubuntu.com/community/slrn
#ubuntu-doc 2010-08-07
<janimo> hi, does anyone know what the status of yelp with webkit is? Does it work on Lucid, is there a PPA?
#ubuntu-doc 2010-08-08
<KE1HA> Anyone around that can answer a quesiton on bzr check-out ?
#ubuntu-doc 2011-08-01
<bkerensa> Hi All :)
<bkerensa> hi all
<bkerensa> anyone awake?
<Atamira> heh
<Atamira> in answer to your question. most times no
<Atamira> if you ahve a question for the documentation group, email the mailing list
<mdke> bkerensa: hi
<bkerensa> mdke: Where would I find some more doc that needs updating :P
<bkerensa> Im bored
<mdke> if it's wiki documents that you are interested in, there is a long list of different pages which need work linked here: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Tag
<mdke> several links are relevant, but see https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Tag/ContentCleanup/List for an example
<bkerensa> excellent :)
<mdke> thanks for working on the docs
<eset> hey, will ubuntu docs apply for the GSoC Summer of Doc camp?
<eset> https://sites.google.com/site/docsprintsummit/
<mdke> eset: probably not as a project, but individuals might certainly be interested. Feel free to raise it on the mailing list
#ubuntu-doc 2011-08-03
<h00k> Greetings! Can this page (regarding 7.10) be baleeted? https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Mac_mini
<h00k> I was wrong. 7.04.
#ubuntu-doc 2011-08-04
<kim0> Hey folks, I was looking at the server-guide, and I see it's written in xml. Do you guys use some (prefered) XML editor, or do I start vim'ing my way around it ?
<jbicha> kim0: I used to use gedit but now use geany which is about the same
<kim0> jbicha: do those tools have special xml support, or are they plain text editors
<kim0> I see geany might not be too bad ;)
<jbicha> basically plain text editors with syntax highlighting, I don't know of a good true xml editor on Linux
<jbicha> gedit's powerful & clean, geany's cluttered but perhaps more powerful
<jbicha> to use gedit, you'll want gedit-plugins, gedit has a lot of features but the default is quite simple
#ubuntu-doc 2011-08-05
<bkerensa> hi all
<jbicha> bkerensa: howdy
#ubuntu-doc 2011-08-07
<sagaci> Hi, I'm come across a string in the ubuntu-docs/ubuntu-help package, "Only add software repositories from sources that you trust. Third-party software repositories are not checked for security by Ubuntu members, and may contain software which is harmful to your computer."
<sagaci> I think that "security by Ubuntu members" should be Ubuntu developers
<sagaci> well, "security by Ubuntu developers"
<Atamira> why?
<Atamira> its not only developers that test the software
<sagaci> I just got the feeling Ubuntu members meant those with ubuntu membership, at least how it reads for me
<Atamira> not all ubuntu members have a memebership
<Atamira> not all the updates that come in for software are ubuntu users
<sagaci> I think the term is a bit ambiguous
#ubuntu-doc 2012-07-30
<Ravi325> anyone?
<hannie> jbicha, ping
#ubuntu-doc 2012-07-31
<hannie> dpm, ping
<jbicha> hannie: hi
<hannie> hey jbicha
<hannie> Can I ask you something?
<jbicha> sure
<hannie> Is there a way to post a .pot file to Launchpad but not allow the translators to see it?
<hannie> it is meant for testing
<jbicha> I don't know
<hannie> ah, np
<hannie> I will do some research
<hannie> jbicha, one more question
<hannie> about menu bar or top bar. We have decided to use menu bar but...
<hannie> if quantal replaces the global menu with integrated menus wouldn't it be better to use top bar as opposed to the integrated menu bar?
<jbicha> I haven't heard if the integrated menu option will make it for quantal
<hannie> ok, so it is a bit premature. I will follow the blogs
<jbicha> if you want the official to be something different than "menu bar" then you'll have to convince the Design Team
<jbicha> because "menu bar" appears several times in the UI
<hannie> ok, do you happen to have a name of someone I can contact?
<jbicha> I don't know many people in Design, but you might try John Lea
<hannie> never mind, I will find out. Thanks for your help
<jbicha> mpt is cool but he handles the not-Unity design stuff
<hannie> ok
<hannie> noted that too
<bkerensa> mhall119: so do you want me to work on some dummy documentation
<mhall119> bonsoir
<bkerensa> and even maybe hack it a bit with our logos etc
<bkerensa> ?
<bkerensa> then we can announce testing?
<mhall119> yeah, if you could look at what it will take to replace the logos and styling, that would be good
<bkerensa> mhall119: notably my css abilities are horrible
<bkerensa> but I can work with the design team
<bkerensa> :D
<mhall119> that's okay, if you can just find out where the changes need to be made, and maybe change some color codes to orange, that'd be enough to show how hard it will be to do it properly
<mhall119> I have a feeling we're going to need to fork kitsune at first, and slowly start submitting changes back upstream until one codebase will work for both sites
<bkerensa> yeah
<bkerensa> I think that would be smart
<bkerensa> I really like this backend
<bkerensa> its so 1995
<bkerensa> :D
<mhall119> what backend?
<mhall119> bkerensa: another thing I remember from local testing,when someone registers an account SUMO will email a confirmation link
<bkerensa> yes'
<mhall119> but unless you've configured your server and django to send outbound email, you're going to have to activate each account from the /admin/
#ubuntu-doc 2012-08-04
<smartboyhw> HI, what can I do for you guys?
#ubuntu-doc 2012-08-05
<CAZ_au> So i should create a wiki page instead of making a forum tutorials and waiting for it to be approved and converted?
<Atamira> is that what the instructions say on the documentation pages?
<CAZ_au> yeah but there a little obscure
<smartboyhw> Anyone here?
<elfy> hi peeps
#ubuntu-doc 2013-08-03
<amjjawad> Hi, anyone here?
<amjjawad> I was wondering how to create something like: <<Include(QATeam/Header)>> so that I can include it as a header on the Wiki Area?
#ubuntu-doc 2014-07-31
<fdassdff> I'm reviewing the serverguide, and I've got a question about grammer: is it appropriate to use "the variable can be set in /the/full/path" file, or should I use "the variable can be set in the file "/the/full/path"?  I couldn't find any reference to phrasing in the Ubuntu or Gnome style guides
<fdassdff> *grammar
<cprofitt> fdassdff: I am not sure...
<cprofitt> are they setting a variable in a file that uses the full path?
#ubuntu-doc 2014-08-03
<natas> i found what i suspect is an error on https://help.ubuntu.com/14.04/serverguide/mail-filtering.html#mail-filter-installation
<natas> i found what i suspect is an error on https://help.ubuntu.com/14.04/serverguide/mail-filtering.html#mail-filter-installation, the documentation refers to the lha archiver package, but on ubuntu 14.04 it seems to be renamed lhasa, http://packages.ubuntu.com/trusty/lhasa
#ubuntu-doc 2015-07-27
<lafricain> Salut,
<lafricain> Je suis en train de travailler sur la page xchat de la doc. On y parle de changer les icÃ´nes de la liste des utilisateurs, quelqu'un sait de quelle liste il s'agit?
<lafricain> Sorry I thing it's not the french documentation?
<pmatulis> non
#ubuntu-doc 2015-07-30
<pleia2> ahoneybun: your email only went to me (not the list)
<ahoneybun> darn
#ubuntu-doc 2016-08-01
<bhouser> Hi.  I live in Germany.  When I open this page: (https://help.ubuntu.com/lts/serverguide/network-configuration.html) I get the German documentation.  I can't find any language-change button, and the URL doesn't seem to have the locale in it either.  How can I read the documentation in English?
<bhouser> I get the English version when I load the documentation as PDF, so I'm using that as a workaround.  I would still be nice to be able to read the HTML documentation in English if that's possible.
<bhouser> It* would ...
#ubuntu-doc 2017-08-03
<geirha> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Internet/ConnectionSharing  typo in the second heading "GUI Method via Netowork Manager"
#ubuntu-doc 2018-08-01
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#ubuntu-doc 2020-07-30
<decaby7e> Hey does anyone in here know how I would be able to request a page I made to be added to the Ubuntu server guide?
<decaby7e> I made a guide for setting up a Kerberized NFS client + server setup based off of https://help.ubuntu.com/community/NFSv4Howto#NFSv4_with_Kerberos
<decaby7e> Cause that one was a bit all over the place
<guiverc> decaby7e, are you a wiki editor?  maybe making a wiki page now, until you get response for how to add to actual guide
<decaby7e> guiverc: I'd love do to that, what do I have to do?
<guiverc> you mentioned your basing it on a wiki page, if it's new info/page you've created, I could paste it for you, changes I could review & make for you, but I'm limited to additions/changes I can understand and thus evaluate.  Do you have a launchpad ID?
<decaby7e> Yes its the same as my handle here, decaby7e
<guiverc> decaby7e, I didn't find your launchpad page, but the reason I asked was to see details about you, anyone can apply for wiki editor I suspect, but it'll more likely get granted if you've invovement somewhere, have people that can vouch for you etc.  (and not have to edit like I was suggesting)
