#ubuntustudio-devel 2010-05-17
<_guitarman_> here's a question for you
<_guitarman_> how do you make qjackctl not suspend pulseaudio - other then the tab in the app itself - i have unchecked it so it doesn't launch it
<ScottL> _guitarman_, the qjackctl application you are calling from the menu is really a script that runs pasuspender and then starts the real binary qjackctl
<ScottL> if you run the qjackctl binary directly it will not start the pasuspender, or run jack from the command line ;)
<ScottL> so type /user/bin/qjackctl.bin should start qjackctl without starting the pausupender
<ScottL> i think
<_guitarman_> i will give that a go ScottL but i believe i tried /usr/bin/qjackctl ... testing 
<ScottL> _guitarman_, i just tested it while listening to holy diver on youtube, started qjackctl via command line by calling the binary dirctly and it didn't stop dio from singing
<_guitarman_> ScottL: strange
<_guitarman_> ScottL: i can't start qjackctl at all now... 
<_guitarman_> bus error
<_guitarman_> meh
 * abogani waves
<jussi> hiya abogani
<abogani> jussi: Hi Jussi
<ScottL> hi abogani and jussi 
<jussi> o/ ScottL
 * abogani is also known as abogani@kernel.org right now.
<jussi> abogani: :)
<quadrispro> ciao abogani, jussi, ScottL 
<jussi> hiya quadrispro
<abogani> jussi: Do you have some news for us from UDS? :-)
<jussi> abogani: what kind of news? 
<quadrispro> ScottL, I've read your article: great post!
<jussi> to be honest I didnt get to many of the sound sessions, as I had a lot of community stuff to do
<astraljava> abogani: Is there a reason to celebrate? re: abogani@kernel.org
<abogani> astraljava: No absolutely 
<astraljava> abogani: Okay, thought there was something to be read into that.
<ScottL> quadrispro, thanks :)  i'm blushing
<astraljava> Which article are you guys talking about? /me feels out of loop. :)
<ScottL> astraljava, it's my blog    http://dullass.blogspot.com/
<ScottL> i'm going to be leaving in an hour or so for a three day trip so i will not be around on IRC
<ScottL> i'll leave the computer on though
<abogani> ScottL: Have a nice trip!
<astraljava> ScottL: Yeah, what he said. :)
<ScottL> thanks!
 * persia *finally* figures out how to connect to IRC again :(
<persia> ScottL: Regardless of whether we support lucid for 5 years, I think we should support for at least 18 months, including stuff for 10.04.1
<abogani> persia: 5 years? Isn't it 3?
<persia> Depends on one's viewpoint :)
<persia> One could argue that the desktop-interactive stuff is 3-year, but I could well imagine someone setting up a headless MIDI box without ubuntustudio-desktop installed.
<persia> Anyway, doesn't really matter.  We ought do what we can, when we can.
 * abogani is happy to see "Supported:" line into apt-cache show output...
<persia> It's a start.  Needs work to allow arbitrary groups to declare support, but that's in the future.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2010-05-18
<andyzweb> _guitarman_: I am running into those troubles with jack as well
<andyzweb> only getting those errors with the realtime kernel
<andyzweb> and no I am not -_-
<andyzweb> *now
<_guitarman_> andyzweb: is that because you rebooted?
<_guitarman_> andyzweb: yes, mine works now
<andyzweb> _guitarman_: yeah that's all I did.
<andyzweb> _guitarman_: have you tried starting and stopping jack and seeing if it still works?
<_guitarman_> will do
<andyzweb> also in in Ardour are all the denormal handling options disabled or is that just me?
<_guitarman_> its working for me now andyzweb 
<_guitarman_> my system is now a real unclean mess though... i've installed kxstudio, so i can't vouch at this point how it is in ubuntustudio exactly since its now installed falk's stuff
<_guitarman_> the pulseaudio to jack bridge is just awesome this solves a lot of problems for linux podcasters
<_guitarman_> and of course for people who want to grab audio from vieos etc
<andyzweb> yeah what is kxstudio? and are you running 10.04?
<_guitarman_> yes 10.04
<_guitarman_> kxstudio is based on ubuntu 10.04
<_guitarman_> i was just tring it out so i could blog about it
<_guitarman_> it uses all the cutting edge stuff
<_guitarman_> jack2
<_guitarman_> ladish
<_guitarman_> the vst stuff
<_guitarman_> so its not as stable
<_guitarman_> based on kde
<_guitarman_> for the desktop environment
<_guitarman_> instead of gnome.
<_guitarman_> its a nice setup, jack is on by default when it boots i believe
<persia> Many of the technologies being previewed in kxstudio will appear in 10.10
<_guitarman_> yeah, i think thats going to be a really killer release for ubuntustudio
<_guitarman_> this stuff should have stabalized a bit more by then
<_guitarman_> although so far it hasn't been terribly crashy
<andyzweb> Yeah. I have given up on getting UbuntuStudio to work fully on my macbook for now.
<andyzweb> I am playing with my other PC instead.
<andyzweb> let me check something real quick
<andyzweb> yeah, I get 5.8ms latency 4 in 2 out with the built in hardware on my macbook pro when @ 44.1 24-bit
<andyzweb> I want to be able to get the same (or hopefully better) with UbuntuStudio on the same machine
<_guitarman_> is the hardware supported?
<andyzweb> welp...the internal sound card is the intel-HDA thing. which is very...difficult
<jussi> Ive asked this guy to join here: 
<jussi> [09:28:09] <macinnisrr> I have a distro for beta release which contains more current versions (and more convenient scripts) of software, as well as realtime kernels with PAE support. I can package quite well, but have no idea how to make a source package or contribute upstream. How can I help?
<andyzweb> abogani: what is the difference between the linux-rt linux-realtime and linux-lowlatency kernels in 10.04?
<abogani> andyzweb: -lowlatency use the same source of -generic one but a more aggressive configuration for reduce latency. -rt and -realtime use PREEMPT_RT patchset (that is linux realtime support) but the former is based on Ubuntu kernel source instead the later is based on the vanilla one (aka kernel.org).
<andyzweb> abogani: ok I see. In the kernel.org rt project there are no patches for 2.6.32 was there no realtime kernel for that version?
<abogani> andyzweb: No. It is the reason of -lowlatency kernel.
<andyzweb> so -lowlatency just uses the Preemptable Kernel instead of the Voluntary Preemption which is enabled in -generic
<abogani> andyzweb: That is one of the config changes.
<andyzweb> abogani: without bothering you anymore, is there a diff or list of the config differences for them?
<abogani> andyzweb: What is the reason of that request?
<persia> abogani: Do we have word of -rt for 2.6.35 yet, or is that still for discussion?
<andyzweb> abogani: just trying to grow my knowledge of kernel development and maintenance
<abogani> persia: Will be 2.6.35 the final kernel version for Lucid?
<abogani> Maverick
<persia> Dunno.  it's the announced version from UDS, at least.
<persia> -kernel would have more details though.
<abogani> persia: At the moment the latest upstream rt release is 2.6.33. they (upstream) don't seem have intention to upgrade soon so we can: 1) stick on 2.6.33 2) forward port it on 2.6.35 (like I done for Intrepid and Jaunty).
<persia> Forward-port is likely to be most compatible, of course.  There may be laggard topic branches that need to be supported.
<abogani> andyzweb: Configurations changed in -lowlatency kernel flavour:
<abogani> # CONFIG_NO_HZ is not set
<abogani> CONFIG_PREEMPT=y
<abogani> CONFIG_HZ_1000=y
<abogani> CONFIG_HZ=1000
<abogani> CONFIG_TREE_PREEMPT_RCU=y
<abogani> CONFIG_SLAB=y
<abogani> # CONFIG_DEBUG_KERNEL is not set
<abogani> andyzweb: ^^
<persia> andyzweb: The other trick is that all the kernels install the config to /boot on install, so you can run diff between arbitrary flavours.
<andyzweb> abogani: many thanks!
<abogani> andyzweb: You are welcome!
<andyzweb> my usefulness will increase once I write my guide for installing UbuntuStudio 10.04 on a MacBook Pro 5,3.
<abogani> persia: Frankly I think that the only one viable solution to -rt painful maintenance is to "adopt" a more tuned generic based kernel kernel like -preempt or -lowlatency. Then put it into main and use as default kernel for Studio. In this way we can let -rt for only people that really needs it. And avoid a lot of criticism (from community) to me.
<persia> Oh, I agree entirely.  I'd like to have -rt in the archives, but I don't think it ought be default for Studio until it hits mainline: it's too high a volume of bug reports for the available maintenance team.
<falktx> so?
<jussi> hi falktx
<jussi> youll need to talk to the packaging lads, perhaps persia can help
<persia> With which?
<falktx> backport packages to lucid
<falktx> maybe through an ubuntustudio ppa
<persia> I only know the official process: file a bug against the backports project, get three people to test, wait for it to be published.  This doesn't work for libraries at all.
<persia> ScottL was talking with jdong about some potential process for more complex stuff, but I don't know the details.
<persia> !backports
<ubottu> If new updated Ubuntu packages are built for an application, then they may go into Ubuntu Backports. See https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuBackports - See also !packaging
<persia> That page should detail the official process, for some more detail.
<persia> Given timezones, ScottL probably won't be around for a few hours yet.
<falktx> that what i don't like about it
<falktx> I have to wait for other people to review it
<falktx> and that can take a really long time
<falktx> upload to a ppa is quick
<falktx> I have done this before so I already know how this works
<falktx> (check the 'zynadd' package)
<falktx> aren't you guys interested on a ubuntustudio ppa?
<persia> There is one.  We just actively don't recommend it to users.
<persia> Basically, anything that is going to get branded as part of what we do needs peer review anyway (even if just between each other).
<persia> And the backports guys tend to be friendly to known groups.
<persia> That's why I suggest waiting for ScottL: he has started a discussion to do something like upload to a PPA, and have that end up in backports for our stuff.  I just don't know the details, and it's not a complete process yet, so the documentation is lacking.
<falktx> ok, that sound good
<falktx> i'll be around here today
<falktx> when will he come?
<persia> He usually has some time early his morning, so near the end of the day UTC.  Worst case, he'll get the message in backscroll.
<falktx> just one super-dumb question - how do i change irc text color ?
<falktx> sometime ppl talk in red
<persia> It's usually something in your client configuration.  Try looking for a Preferences menu or submenu, and see if there is a colours choice.  If you use a CLI IRC client, it's probably some /SET magic.
<falktx> i use konversation
<persia> I don't know for konversation.  With Quassel it's Settings....Configure Quassel...Chat view
<persia> jussi: Do you remember where to configure that in konversation?
<falktx> i saw it, custom colors
<falktx> but how to enable it while typing?
<jussi> Im sorry, been using quassel for too long
<falktx> it's ok
<persia> How do you mean?  To control what colors you send?  Lots of folks won't see that, because they show the colors client-side.
<falktx> it's not like i need that
<jussi> pretty much all of ubuntu channels have colour restrictions set also
<astraljava> irssi FTW!!
 * jussi gags astraljava
<falktx> hi Scott
<falktx> i was discussing with some guys here about the ubuntustudio ppa
<falktx> to get a way to upload to that ppa, "auto-review", and send to backports if it's good enough
<rlameiro> falktx: boas, por aqui :D
<falktx> ya, ola
<falktx> fui um dia pesquizar umas cenas...
<falktx> e encontrei ...
<rlameiro> falktx: i finished reading the channel logs, ScottL is in a trip of about 3 days
<rlameiro> http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2010/05/
<rlameiro> we had a meeting last sunday and we talked about the backports issue, go into there and you can look at it
<rlameiro> also, WELCOME MAN!!!!!
<falktx> nice to be here
<falktx> ja tou no estÃ¡gio, por isso ja tenho net o dia todo
<falktx> atÃ© as 6h30
<falktx> which is the specific log date i should check ? (sunday...)
<rlameiro> 16
<rlameiro> sorry folks, we are both from Portugal :D
<falktx> i'm reading the logs...
<falktx> what do you guys think about kxstudio?
<falktx> does it suck, or is it a good thing?
<falktx> ok
<rlameiro> falktx: i dont like so much kde, its a personal question, but kxstudio is a very nice build and has very neat features 
<rlameiro> some things are planned to be on the next release, like jack2, for instance
<falktx> everything could be ported to ubuntustudio
<falktx> i saw the interest on pulse-jack
<rlameiro> well, not everything
<rlameiro> to get into ubuntustudio, the packages must be on the ubuntu repos
<falktx> i decided to stick with lucid for at least a year
<rlameiro> and for that they must get through the REVU process, maybe persia can help you in there
<falktx> so I won't work for maverick
<falktx> (always persia)
<rlameiro> :D
<falktx> the thing is:
<falktx> i'll keep working on lucid
<rlameiro> well he is a MOTU, so he can guide in there
<falktx> whatever that thing is going to ubuntu or not, I don't think it's my job
<falktx> i have many packages in revu
<falktx> the only one that has been accepted is "zynadd"
<falktx> dpkg -s zynadd | tail -n 1
<rlameiro> well i dont know about that, but revu seems a very hard process to go through
<falktx> _it's cool_
<falktx> revu is all about waiting, i think
<falktx> ppl are busy, i get it
<rlameiro> well yea, but there are a lot of things to correct
<rlameiro> well , time to give lesson
<rlameiro> be back later
<falktx> ok 
<falktx> bye
 * rlameiro AFK
<falktx> i think ubuntustudio should have something like this:
<falktx> http://kxstudio.sourceforge.net/screenshots/kcm_audio1.png
<falktx> i did it for kxstudio, and it's very handy
<rlameiro> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/ControlsRedesign falktx 
<falktx> @rlameiro: weren't going to give a class
<falktx> ?
<falktx> i can easily do that app in 3 weeks
<falktx> using pyqt
<falktx> just need to leave everything for later, which i might not do...
<falktx> i would change some stuff though
<falktx> shouldn't wireless be a task of networkmanager ?
<falktx> nm-applet ?
<persia> Historically we've used gnome-network in preference to network-manager, as it doesn't have a dynamic behaviour, so it's easier to predict system load.
<falktx> so that's the reason
<falktx> is networkmanager included in the dvd?
<falktx> it should
<persia> I don't think so.  There's a bug in lucid that it doesn't work at all, but that's different.
<persia> Why, if it's considered to offer a degraded experience?
<falktx> i sometimes use nm-applet even in kde
<persia> It's *wonderful* for usecases that don't run into issues with a bit of extra latency once in a while, but this doesn't tend to be that use case.
<falktx> it never failed me, and kde has some minor probs with networks
<persia> It's not a reliability issue: it's a predictability issue.  With n-m, there exists no way to know "when" n-m will decide to consume processing resources.
<persia> So one can't safely e.g. push one's machine near the limit in a performance.
<falktx> i understand
<rlameiro> persia: could this bug be a packaging issue? https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/581786
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 581786 in ubuntustudio "Mute button not enabled by default in Ardour 2.8.6 Lucid AM64" [Undecided,New]
<persia> rlameiro: It might be, but it might also be an accidental upstream release artifact creation bug.
<persia> Check the debian package to see if the defaults are different.  Also, check to see if there is a config file in the upstream release tarball.
<persia> It can be fixed in packaging, but it's worth tracking down the source of those values, and fixing it there so that we don't have to readjust every time we touch the package.
<rlameiro> persia: the comments said that in ardour forum this issue was on the ubuntu package
<persia> Sure, but do we know that it isn't also in the Debian packaging?  How about the upstream release tarball?
<persia> That nobody ever encountered it there doesn't help us to know: maybe the Debian users all modify the configuration.  Maybe nobody actually uses the usptream example file.
<rlameiro> well i will try to look into it later
<persia> Thanks.  If it's really just an issue in Ubuntu, we'll want to check why it exists (maybe there's a bug in each direction, and it needs some other solution), and then just sync with Debian.
<falktx> you're here too guitarm1n ?
<falktx> ha
<_guitarman_> yes - i am everywhere falktx ... rlameiro recruited me for the meeting to suggest some things
<_guitarman_> since i use the tools in the podcast etc
<_guitarman_> and for music
#ubuntustudio-devel 2010-05-19
<TheMuso> c
<astraljava> Am I insane, or is it actually supported to update a Ubuntu vanilla system with a Ubuntu Studio DVD?
 * astraljava refers to a recent report for bug 114957.
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 114957 in ubuntustudio "Dist-upgrade "can't install ubuntu-desktop" on todays upgrade" [Low,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/114957
<persia> astraljava: That should be a supported use-case, if a bit odd.
<persia> Oh, nvm.  Reading the bug in more detail, it shouldn't work with *just* the DVD: the user would also have to have a net connection, and do part of the upgrade over the net.
<abogani> persia: Hi
<persia> :)
<abogani> persia: you are too fast :-)
 * persia mostly just doesn't view IRC split into channels
<abogani> persia: :-?
<persia> When I'm watching IRC, I'm watching all traffic in all the channels I'm in simultaneously, so if I see something of interest, I can switch output targets quickly.  That said, right now I'm not watching IRC a lot of the time.
<abogani> persia: Are you around?
<persia> Kinda.  What's up?
<abogani> persia:  Could I ask you a really big favour? 
<persia> You can always ask (and no need to ping me first), but I won't promise to do anything until/unless I know what it is :)
<abogani> persia: :-)
<ScottL> hello all :)
<detrate> ScottL: my friend will be starting the design soon
<detrate> I'll let you know more as I know more
<detrate> I gave him the wiki as refernce
<detrate> and invited him here though he's not much of an IRCer (yet)
<ScottL> hi detrate , that is fantastic news!  I look forward to seeing what you come up with :)
<detrate> fortunes-mario package is not what I thought :-P
<ScottL> what did you think fortunes-mario was?
<detrate> super mario ^_^
#ubuntustudio-devel 2010-05-21
 * quadrispro NM in progress
<persia> Good luck!
<astraljava> NM as in New Maintainer?
<falktx> i think it is Network Manager
<persia> It's both, but in this case, very likely to be the Debian New Maintainer process
<astraljava> Yeah, due to following #debian-multimedia and #debian-ubuntu on oftc, I figured as much. :D
<quadrispro> persia, thank you
<quadrispro> almost finished :P https://nm.debian.org/nmstatus.php?email=quadrispro@ubuntu.com
<falktx> hi there
<falktx> will we have jack2 on 10.10?
<falktx> has this been discussed already?
<falktx> (I read somewhere about this, can't remember where)
<scott-work> hi falktx
<scott-work> jack2 is in debian and hopefully will be in 10.10
<scott-work> crimsun, The.Muso and others are working on getting it and Pule Audio to play nicely together within the Ubuntu framework
<scott-work> i would like to talk with you about getting your work into Ubuntu (via Debian) though
<scott-work> you have already witnessed and commented on how slow REVU takes to get new packages into Ubuntu, however another vector exists
<scott-work> this is through Debian, and for audio specific packages we have worked with the Debian Multimedia team
<falktx> i'll stay on lucid for now (for KXStudio), but i'll be happy to help
<falktx> have you check the "pulse-jack" package
<falktx> I think there are many ppl interested on that
<scott-work> is the "pulse-jack" package part of KXStudio?
<falktx> it's in my "lucid" ppa
<falktx> it's not kxstudio related script
<falktx> but, of course, it's used on it
<scott-work> while I have already downloaded KXStudio, accessing your PPA to inspect a package will be easier :)
<falktx> i need to say this
<scott-work> Debian has a much more robust program for accepting new packages, which is why getting them into Debian sometimes (or possibly manytimes) is a quicker path to get them into Ubuntu
<falktx> i'm pretty glad launchpad exists!
<scott-work> hah!  yes, it is pretty sweet :D
<scott-work> the more I explore it, the more it amazes me
<scott-work> I want to speak with quadrispro and/or fabrice_sp (and possibly astraljava) about getting your packaging into Debian and then into Ubuntu
<scott-work> you are a dynamic and robust packager and I want to harness that to Ubuntu (and Ubuntu Studio's specific) benefit
<falktx> haha
<falktx> my hard works is "compensating"
<falktx> tell me what i need to do to help
<scott-work> sorry, i'm at work, therefore i'll be away from time to time
<scott-work> re: help - Ubuntu Studio is part of Ubuntu (which is derived from Debian), therefore to reap the rewards afforded by Ubuntu's infrastructure we must constrain ourselves within it's paradigms
<scott-work> which basically means, we have to play by their rules, especially when it comes to packaging
<scott-work> i haven't looked at any of your packages in a while, have you been trying to follow the Ubuntu or Debian packaing policy (i.e. /debian directory, et al)?
<scott-work> (this would greatly facilitate getting packages into Debian/Ubuntu)
<scott-work> but I must add, you packaging all the audio applications is already quite a lot of help!
<falktx> i have a set of templates for packaging
<falktx> i just copy, modify a few lines
<falktx> and it's done
<falktx> the debian/copyright only says "packaged by falkTX"
<falktx> the debian/rules use cdbs
<falktx> with only build::
<falktx> and common-install::
<falktx> that's the fatest way of packaging for me (for PPA purposes)
<falktx> I still don't know how to use quilt
<falktx> and i'm guessing this will be the biggest problem, as I sometimes add patches/modify the source
<falktx> (better ladish integration, compilation fixes, etc)
<scott-work> i'm a packaging hack myself, so i'll have to ask quadrispro or persia how that might impact
<persia> Lots of ways work.  I personally prefer using /usr/share/doc/debhelper/examples/rules.tiny
<falktx> i believe that my debian/rules are fine
<persia> But in general, except for new stuff, we follow debian-multimedia practice, and if we're putting new stuff in Debian we'd do best to start that way.
<scott-work> hi persia, i meant more about quilt and modifying source
<persia> falktx: They are absolutely fine :)  I'm just sharing my personal preference.
<falktx> good, that makes me happy
<falktx> but please note that some packages are copied from somewhere else
<falktx> debian testing, other ppas, etc
<falktx> but most of them are mine
<falktx> philip5 also has good packages
<persia> For quilt, it's mostly just using `quilt push`, `quilt pop`, `quilt new`, and `quilt edit`
<falktx> i'll have to learn about that sometime later
<scott-work> falktx, did you ever sort out the IRC color issue you mentioned before?
<falktx> not really
<scott-work> in xchat, my text is red when someone uses my name
<falktx> me too , using konversation
<falktx> i'm just not used to irc
<falktx> how do you do like
<falktx> falktx thinks bla bla
<falktx> (here appears in blue)
<falktx> ?
<scott-work> i never used IRC before i started working with the ubuntu studio developers
<scott-work> lol, there were lots of things i never did before i started working with the ubuntu studio developers
<scott-work> but i like the red (or blue) text, it helps to locate where someone is addressing you directly
<falktx> so how do i get the blue, "my-thoughts" like thing?
<scott-work> One of the most useful options, nick/line highlighting, is turned off by default. To enable it, go to Settings Â» Configure Konversationâ¦ Â» Highlight. Check the options for Always highlight own current nick and Always highlight own lines, and choose colors for them. One good choice is red for current nick, and green for own lines
<scott-work> i didn't just type that myself, i copied from a website tutorial
<scott-work> http://docs.zetaboards.com/irc/konversation
<falktx> konversation is good per default
<falktx> i only enable the systray
<falktx> what i'm trying to do is something like this
<falktx> (copied from another channel):
<falktx> * nedko notices evil use of printf
<falktx> how do I do that?
 * scott-work is wondering if falktx means this?
<scott-work> you type "/me action"
<scott-work> without quotes
 * scott-work action
<falktx> ha!
<falktx> let me try
 * falktx is happy
<falktx> hahaaaaaa
 * falktx is going to play soccer today, and he's very excited about it
<falktx> many thanks!!!!!
<scott-work> your welcome :)
<falktx> my life has meaning now, LOL
<falktx> doesn't upload too many stuff to launchpad makes it slow?
<falktx> sometimes I get the idea that the more uploads i do, the more I'll have to wait
<scott-work> i've never felt that launchpad was optimized for browser speed, but neither have i felt that is has slowed down either
<falktx> i mean
<falktx> i've made lots of uploads today
<falktx> (around 50)
<falktx> now i have to wait 5 hours
<falktx> https://launchpad.net/~falk-t-j/+archive/kxstudio/+build/1749550
<scott-work> oh, you mean for the builds
<scott-work> yes, the build farm hosts a discreet number of virtual builders and the total number of builds queued (plus their priority) will affect build times
<scott-work> persia:  there might have been a misconception (my fault) when we spoke last about gnome-network-admin
<persia> How do you mean?
<scott-work> persia:  my description was incomplete when i said i saw the options, i did see the options but they were greyed out and i was unable to change them
<scott-work> so this affects not only wireless but also wired connections
<persia> Right.  That matches my memory of when I had facilities to replicate.
<scott-work> i realized afterwards how misleading this might be, especially coupled with your comment "maybe, this only affects wireless, weird" ( or something to that effect)
<scott-work> and i did not want to mislead you :)
<persia> Yeah, I was a bit confused.  I'm glad to have my prior understandign restored.
<scott-work> :)
<scott-work> oh, i sent an email to Luis last night, i am unsure if he will be responsive though
#ubuntustudio-devel 2010-05-22
<ScottL> persia:  you made a comment earlier about gnome-network-admin not being installed by default, even in ubuntu studio
<ScottL> i checked on a fresh lucid install and found network-admin under /usr/bin
<ScottL> 'tis not a pressing matter, but i wanted to pass on the information
<ScottL> however, i would be curious to learn what tool you were using to check if gnome-network-admin was installed
<ScottL> persia: i did a little more looking at the ubuntu studio lucid disc and found a few things
<ScottL> network-manager and network-manager-applet are both on the disc under /pool/main/n
<ScottL> i could not find gnome-network-admin, however i did find gnome-system-tools, of which gnome-network-admin is built from
<ScottL> it appears that i found the problem with the ardour mute buttons bug #581786
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 581786 in Ubuntu Studio "Mute button not enabled by default in Ardour 2.8.6 Lucid AM64" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/581786
<ScottL> i made a patch for ubuntu and will try it out and then see if i can get it to debian as well
#ubuntustudio-devel 2010-05-23
<ScottL> persia, do you have time to advise on the ardour mute bug?
#ubuntustudio-devel 2011-05-16
<TheMuso> ScottL: Whenever I tried to get Andy's attention/find him, he was busy...
<holstein> ScottL: ping
<holstein> maybe i'll wait for scott-work
<holstein> ailo__: you around?
<ailo__> holstein, Just came back
<holstein> SWEET
<holstein> ailo__: i have an idea
<holstein> it came to me while i was reading ralphs email
<holstein> and thinking about putting a fork in my eye ;)
<ailo__> a fork in your eye?
<holstein> ailo__: jabbing my eyes out, so i cant read them anymore
<holstein> anyways...
<holstein> i have an email on the -del list about this idea
<ailo__> ah, ok :)
<holstein> since the UI change is such a mess
<holstein> what is the current ubuntustudio-desktop metapackage..
<holstein> we just take that
<holstein> basically as-is
<holstein> hopefully needing little to no maintanence
<holstein> rename that package
<holstein> call it ubuntustudio-desktop-gnome
<holstein> SO
<holstein> when someone installs normal buntu
<holstein> they sudo apt-get install ubuntustudio-desktop-gnome
<holstein> and they get what we got now
<holstein> *for as long as gnome2 is in the repos
<holstein> some documentation on the website, and in the 'vanilla' section of the wiki
<holstein> that should get closer to pleasing everyone
<holstein> and not require anything on our end
<holstein> ailo__: ?
<ailo__> sorry. had to run out a bit
<ailo__> I think it sounds like a good idea
<holstein> COOL
<holstein> seems easy enough
<holstein> whats the other one?
<holstein> ubuntustudio-menu ?
<holstein> something like that
<holstein> i'll need to look into that too
<holstein> and whats happening with it
<ailo__> I don't remember how much installing ubuntustudio-desktop onto a vanilla install will actually turn the desktop into ubuntustudio-desktop, though
<holstein> no reason why the current cant be ubuntustudio-menu-gnome
<holstein> i remember ScottL trying to show me how to maintain some of that
<holstein> i could try again
<ailo__> I mean, themes and things like that will of course change
<holstein> ailo__: i was thinking it would be like installing xubuntu-desktop
<holstein> in 10.04
<ailo__> But panel settings and that sort of things will not - if there are any user settings already made
<holstein> if you run sudo apt-get install xubuntu-desktop
<holstein> ubuntu-desktop wants to go bye-bye
<holstein> SO, ideally, in unity buntu
<ailo__> Also, I don't know about all the stuff in the background that on vanilla takes up a lot more memory than on current ubuntustudio-desktop
<holstein> you run sudo apt-get install ubuntustudio-desktop-gnome
<holstein> and unity is gone
<holstein> and what we have now shows up
<holstein> OR
<holstein> if someone wants unity-studio
<ailo__> Well, I don't think it's all that simple - even though you get the desktop functionality you want
<holstein> they just get the other metas
<holstein> ailo__: we'd need to test and ask around
<holstein> and im into that
<ailo__> I wonder what is the most important about all that. Is it the theme, or is it the desktop
<holstein> well, there was an interesting message on the ML
<ailo__> Cause if it's just about the desktop, then you don't really need ubuntustudio-desktop-gnome, just gnome
<holstein> someone said that the current desktop is too divergent from the standard buntu
<holstein> the gnome we produce is too different for their taste
<holstein> ailo__: i thought it was be easier to maintain ubuntustudio-desktop
<holstein> for us*
<holstein> and the look and feel would be the *same*
<holstein> which is the end result i wanted
<holstein> i just wanted to say 'if you dont like change, heres what you do'
<holstein> and you can do that as long as gnome2 is around
<holstein> which is out of our control
<ailo__> Ok. Like a transition thing
<ailo__> At least for next release
<holstein> sure
<holstein> or just something we 'set and forget'
<holstein> til buntu pulls gnome2
<ailo__> But is gnome2 going to be supported next release?
<holstein> ailo__: thats the other question
<holstein> when does buntu pull gnome2
<holstein> i heard, and assumed its going to be there for a while
<holstein> but, who knows
<ailo__> Even with Gnome3, it will not be a big change. You can always run it without gnome-shell
<holstein> i cant imagine it being around after the wayland switch*
<holstein> ailo__: i dont want us to have to develope a gnome3 desktop though
<ailo__> Gnome3 without the shell I think is practically gnome2, but less configurable at the moment
<holstein> unless it just takes out current gnome2 setup
<holstein> OR if its dirt-simple
<holstein> OR, if one of the list complainers wants to take that on
<ailo__> I don't know the specifics of course, but as far as I understand, anything gnome2 should be supported
<holstein> ailo__: thats compatibility mode?
<ailo__> Gnome3 uses both gtk2 and gtk3. You can use the panel, just as before - what else is there?
<holstein> true
<holstein> thats something to entertain
<holstein> of course, that does involve change
<holstein> to some degree
<holstein> i was trying to get the exact same thing
<ailo__> Just saying that it may be no difference going with Gnome3 for the next release, or even the next two releases
<holstein> until change is not an option anymore
<ailo__> As long as you use it without the shell
<holstein> ailo__: im lurking in #gnome now
<holstein> trying to learn a few particulars
<holstein> we'll see
<holstein> ailo__: i wouldnt mind having a 'same' option
<holstein> as long as its simple
<holstein> and maintenance-free for us
<ailo__> tbh, the change to XFCE is not about creating a safe option for multimedia use in the future in my view. It's about personla choice. And especially when it comes to AWN
<ailo__> There is of course the notion that Gnome3 is not going to be the default for vanilla Ubuntu
<ailo__> But, now when you brought this up, I'm thinking the transition from Gnome2 and Gnome3 is probably pretty painfree for at least one release, maybe two
<holstein> maybe
<holstein> i asked about compatibilty mode
<holstein> in #gnome
<ailo__> This would need to be looked into of course
<holstein> and how long it would be around
<holstein> and someone quickly said 'gnome2 is dead' ;)
<holstein> i didnt ever get anything definitive
<ailo__> Well, whatever they meant by that
<holstein> nor, have i been able to see compatibility mode from the live CD's im running
<ailo__> And what do they mean with compatibility mode?
<holstein> ailo__: i know, im not sure
<ailo__> All of the gnome2 apps will work
<holstein> i was thinking gnome2 like look
<holstein> thats what someone on the ML implied
<holstein> and i didnt spend a whole lot of time on it
<ailo__> So, it's about the theming, then?
<holstein> in a live CD
<holstein> ailo__: well, i think its going to be change in general
<holstein> thats what most dont understand
<holstein> change is happening
<holstein> around US
<holstein> we have to do something
<holstein> gnome3 is not default
<ailo__> gtk3 is a new standard for gui applications, but it doesn't mean gtk2 will stop being supported
<holstein> unity would be the natural move
<ailo__> Just like gtk1.2 was around for a long while
<ailo__> And qt3, when that was replaced by qt4
<holstein> unity, in one way is the move to stay more like what we have now
<holstein> BUT
<holstein> XFCE is another way to stay with what we have now
<holstein> its challening
<holstein> i mean, at some point, we just have to do it
<holstein> and let the chips fall
<holstein> ralph just came around a bit
<holstein> on the list
<holstein> he asked how to help :)
<holstein> thats cool
<ailo__> Yeah, it would be nice if he helped.
<ailo__> I don't see XFCE pushing to become anymore multimedia friendly than Unity or Gnome3. I don't feel the purpose for changing UI is totally clear right now
<holstein> true
<holstein> i think its a good idea to do it now though
<ailo__> It's not about single app focus, at least I don't think that's a dilemma at all
<ailo__> And it sure isn't about performance either
<holstein> we could jump ship by 12.04
<holstein> and do something different
<ailo__> I don't think anything called Ubuntu should try to be different. Ubuntu Studio, being in the main repo should be Ubuntu, but multimedia friendly
<holstein> thats one angle
<holstein> and a valid point
<holstein> thats more like thinking of appealing to current desktop users
<holstein> which is fine
<holstein> i think we were hoping to pool resources with xubuntu
<holstein> and maybe attract some unity defectors
<ailo__> I think it should be universal as much as possible, but be very strict about audio and video performance and compability
<ailo__> Using windows is of course a big issue
<ailo__> Theming for me, should come last anyway
<holstein> this could also get to, why have a release?
<holstein> why not just maintain some metas
<holstein> that folks can add?
<holstein> and theres good reasons for having an iso
<holstein> its challenging
<holstein> these are exciting times though
<holstein> im stoked :)
<ailo__> Well, if the UI is not good for multimedia, than it should only be changed to the degree it needs to be, in my opinion. That could mean just tweaking a panel
<holstein> if we are trying to ease the trasition
<holstein> XFCE is a good call
<holstein> XFCE does look and feel more like gnome2 than unity
<ailo__> I'm more worried about -lowlatency tbh
<holstein> but, thats catering to current ubuntutsudio users
<ailo__> Without that, I don't care about the UI
<holstein> not ubuntu users
<holstein> ailo__: yeah, i cant believe we dont have -lowlatency
<holstein> that sux
<holstein> i thought that was just happening
<ailo__> We should have a -lowlatency installable for Oneiric by the beginning of June
<ailo__> For me the two main focus points are getting -lowlatency in and some kind of a -controls application to help tune the system
<ailo__> With those two, you can use any UI you want - even though a specific UI for multimedia is of course a nice bonus
<holstein> ailo__: agreed
<ailo__> You can even use any Ubuntu derived distro you want
<ailo__> As ScottL said, you can always change your mind about the UI for the next release. It's not easy making a good choice now. And it's nice that there is vision.
<ailo__> I can see one point in using AWN, or something like that. If you make it into a multimedia specific panel, even that can be used on any Desktop or distro
<holstein> and it looks more like OSX
<ailo__> It doesn't have to be
<holstein> which, if we are attracting an audio professional
<holstein> that might be a +
<ailo__> I'm more concerned with the functionality. Not the look
<holstein> sure
<ailo__> If it doesn't add anything, no reason to use it
<holstein> i still plan on removing it ;)
<ailo__> If it doesn't help using awn, it's just a waste of resources adding that to the Desktop config
<ailo__> But, there are ideas around it, which is what makes me interested
<holstein> im trying to stay open-minded about it
<holstein> its not going anywhere
<holstein> it came with the XFCE move somehow
<holstein> and thats fine
<ailo__> ckontros had that plan from the start
<holstein> i would like to hold off on the dock
<holstein> make the new XFCE look and feel almost exactly like the current setup
<holstein> ease the transition
<holstein> then, start tweaking it
<holstein> so its not such a drastic change
<ailo__> Well, it would be less of a transition with Gnome3
<holstein> im sure its going to look and feel great though
<holstein> ailo__: you think?
<ailo__> Without gnome-shell
<holstein> i think it depends on how long that stays around
<holstein> which we dont know
<holstein> maybe we should entertain that as a viable backup plan
<holstein> just in case
<ailo__> Not a bad idea continuing the gnome2 support
<ailo__> Just a matter of who will have time to do it
<holstein> yeah, maybe i can learn
<holstein> if its easy enough for me
<holstein> ralph and I :)
<holstein> we'll be the gnome2 team 
<ailo__> Ok
<holstein> alright... gott get some eggs
<holstein> and pick up some audio files :)
<holstein> laterx
<ailo__> ok holstein. See you
<scott-work> holstein: astraljava: if we did keep a ubuntustudio-desktop-gnome package around for people then we might smooth any transition by really joinking the UI as cory might do with a dock and no panel
<holstein> scott-work: agreed
<holstein> i was thinking that it should work
<holstein> for a while
<holstein> just keeping that meta-package as-is
<holstein> and renaming it
<holstein> the gnome2 stuff should be changing much anymore
<holstein> and developers gernerally wont be implementing things that break gnome2 for a long time
<astraljava> scott-work: Right, yeah I just worry that some of the package names will be pointing to GNOME 3 versions of functionalities.
<astraljava> But I will pay more attention to it soon, so I can give a more valuable opinion.
<holstein> cool
<holstein> yeah, these are the questions to ask
<holstein> and if it seems easy
<holstein> i say, lets do it
<holstein> theres a great new thread that just got started 
<holstein> by karl
<holstein> asking about this*
<holstein> i was thinking
<holstein> new versions of apps will run in both
<holstein> for a long time
<holstein> the metapackage shouldnt need tweaking
<holstein> assuming we dont want to change the wallpaper and theme
<holstein> which, i think should be left alone
<holstein> the menu?
<holstein> thats something im not sure about
<holstein> the xfce from what i understand is actually one of the better DE's at being compliant with standards
<holstein> we'll see
<holstein> we can just keep that on the back burner as we get close
<scott-work> my understanding is that gtk2 applications will still work with gtk3, which apparently is what gnome3 is going with currently
<holstein> it would help ease the transisition
<holstein> scott-work: right
<holstein> gtk3 apps is what i worry about
<scott-work> astraljava: i would expect that the gnome2 stuff would work as it is
<holstein> yeah, it *should*
<astraljava> scott-work: Okay, so things like gnome-menus and gnome-session and the like won't be called as such in GNOME 3? I must admit, I am totally clueless to the architecture and implementation of the new DE.
<scott-work> astraljava: i'm not sure we need to worry about the mechanics of gnome3, do we?
 * ckontros waves.
<scott-work> oops, i'm wrong, dreadfully wrong astraljava 
<scott-work> ubuntu-desktop just answered that gnome2 won't be in the archives and it _will_ be gnome3
<scott-work> hi cory
<astraljava> scott-work: That was my worry, and that the packages that would be called with those names will actually provide GNOME 3 components.
<scott-work> ckontros: did you enjoy the fireworks this weekend on the ML? ;)
<ckontros> ScottL: The guys from the Shimmer Project (did the Xubuntu art) and that one artist both responded positively. The both want details as to whats involved. Sounds good though.
<ckontros> scott-work: Where? Did I miss something? :)
<scott-work> ckontros: oh, that sounds incredibly awesome!
<ckontros> Both are busy and just want exacting details as to whats involved. But both seem keen to help.
<scott-work> astraljava: holstein :  more bad news, i was speaking with jibicha in #ubuntu-desktop, he says that gnome2 will not exist in the archives, that gnome3 will provide that functionality, and it will be the "compatability" mode that looks and functions like gnome3 less the 3d
<scott-work> ckontros: we can work up some specs i'm sure :)
<ckontros> scott-work: Yeah. I got it handled. Working it all up now.
<ckontros> Only thing we might have to talk about ate thematic elements.
<ckontros> That's /if/ they don't want to take those creative reigns.
<astraljava> scott-work: Okay, so that idea is outta window. Too bad, but it's not like we were really counting on it in the first place.
<scott-work> ckontros: we'd probably need to get kokito invovled, either on the front end or at least on the back to tie it with the website
<holstein> scott-work: when?
<holstein> they are pulling it this release?
<holstein> i heard they were leaving it in
<holstein> that would kill the backup plan
<scott-work> holstein: jbicha says it is so, i'm trying to get his ppa name so we could test it
<holstein> i think its gotta be easy*
<holstein> if buntu is pulling gnome2
<holstein> then, we let it go
<holstein> ckontros: o/
<ckontros> scott-work: Well, if we have what we want to convey (thematic stuff) I can just have them create some more images, use a wallpaper and general color scemes for the site.
<scott-work> holstein: astraljava : here is jbicha's ppa if you are interested:  https://launchpad.net/~jbicha/+archive/ppa
<scott-work> i might try it as well just to verify it
<scott-work> but we really might need to talk to *someone* like cjwatson just to make sure we are not getting fed something incorrect
<holstein> scott-work: whats in his PPA?
<holstein> gnome2?
<scott-work> gnome3
<scott-work> one of the pakcages built is called gnome-panels
<ckontros> So, what's the current chat about here? The ubuntustudio-desktop-gnome post?
<holstein> scott-work: O I C
<holstein> nah, i wanted ubuntustudio-desktop-gnome to just be the same as ubuntusudio-desktop is now
<holstein> im not interested in a gnome3 version
<holstein> personally*
<holstein> ckontros: basically
<ckontros> Ahh... Yeah. No GNOME2 and upgrade paths will be a PITA.
<holstein> if gnome2 could stay in the repos
<holstein> and we just rename
<holstein> then, why not
<holstein> but, otherwise, screw it
<astraljava> scott-work: Alright, will have a look.
<holstein> thats just more support for the move
<holstein> and folks are coming around
<scott-work> yeah, it would have been nice to be able to offer that to people with only renaming the package
<ckontros> Because it aint gonna happen. Basically. I would bet my home it wouldnt happen.
<holstein> scott-work: so thats confirmed though?
<ckontros> I could just see that being a *massive* lib mess.
<holstein> ckontros: ?
<holstein> a gnome3 meta?
<ckontros> Keeping GNOME2&3 in the repos.
<holstein> ckontros: O I C
<holstein> yeah, for them
<scott-work> yeah, that's what it's sounding like from #ubuntu-desktop
<holstein> i just thought i had heard it was sticking around
<holstein> for compatibility
<holstein> eh, i like it
<holstein> out with the old, in the the new i say
<holstein> we just got some FUD going around 
<holstein> not a big deal
<ckontros> I think G3 is in a much better state for that than GTK1 vs. 2 was.
<holstein> i think the tone has improved recently
<ckontros> Honestly, I think the distro is the least of our concerns. I agree with Scott that the website will be where its at. Thats where I think we can pull the greatest community help.
<scott-work> alright, going home, catch you in 30
<ckontros> As we can, or technical folks come along, we can go after bugs and better integration of systems. Upgrading/backporting packages.
<holstein> ckontros: yeah, i like that angle
<holstein> and agree
<holstein> it'll be fine
<holstein> im just trying to chill the current complainers out a bit
<holstein> they'll be fine though
<holstein> and might actually come get involved
<ckontros> Where? On the *-users list? (im not on it) I musta missed something. :)
<holstein> yeah, the -user list is the one with the mess
<holstein> pretty much
<holstein> its good though
<holstein> people getting fired up about it
<ckontros> Ok Ill look it over to get the gist.
<holstein> i wouldnt unless you just have to ;)
<ckontros> haha. Ok. I wont. I realize everyone wont like the change. Im ok with that. Far more people will bitch than those who are fine with it.
<ckontros> We'll test upgrade paths. If it doesnt work well (it should just fine) we'll ask people to do clean installs.
<ckontros> Worst thing I see happening is that it will pull new XFCE deps people wont want.
<holstein> yeah, we cant please everyone
<holstein> there were a lot of folks that just wanted to keep gnome2
<holstein> and didnt seem to realize why that was off the table
<ckontros> New installs should rock. I've been using what I hope works as the new UI for weeks now and its been very nice. I didnt expect it to go this well considering I *never* change things around. :P
<ckontros> holstein: Not really up to us. Hell, XFCE will even go to GTK3.
 * ckontros shrugs.
<ckontros> In the end, it the new Layout doesn't work, we'll recreate our GNOME layout with XFCE. Totally possible. But I think we should try something new.
<ckontros> *if the new...
<holstein> yeah
<holstein> its a good move
<holstein> that we have all thought about
<holstein> and necessary
<holstein> and i think folks on the list just didnt realize that
<holstein> i think they thought it was just a UI change
<holstein> for no good reason
<holstein> there were folks unaware of gnome3
<holstein> commenting on how bad xfce was once
<ckontros> Heh. How could that happen. News of it is everywhere. :)
<holstein> its better now though
<holstein> ckontros: well, if you're a mailing list kinda guy
<holstein> and not on the IRC
<holstein> or listening to a podshow or whatever
<holstein> i guess you could just miss it ;)
<ckontros> Just in general Ubuntu news. Its everywhere. Tied up with talk about Unity.
 * ckontros shrugs.
<holstein> i know
<holstein> TBH
<holstein> i dont think they know about unity either 
<holstein> somehow
<holstein> anyways, its going to be fine either way
<holstein> we are looking to the future
 * ckontros scratches head. Ok. :)
<holstein> and thats great
 * holstein gotta run eat before the gig
<holstein> BBL...
 * ckontros waves.
<astraljava> ckontros: It was news to me too, and I at least read quite a lot of ubuntu-related mailing list activity. Granted, I'm in shadows when it comes to blogs (planet.*) etc.
<astraljava> It's not all over everything.
<ckontros> astraljava: Suprising. Ubuntu and GNOME3 news is all over it seems. Slashdot, Engadget, Ars... Tech sites really.
<ckontros> Big change all around so it's got some press.
<astraljava> ckontros: Yeah, I meant really that it's going to replace the existing in so tight schedule.
<ckontros> It'll be like the KDE 3->4 bandaid. Just gotta rip it off and get it over with. :P
<astraljava> ckontros: Well it makes sense when you think about it. Guess I just hadn't given it the thought it required.
 * ckontros wonders what a Studio switch to KDE would do to peoples fragile little minds... :P hhehehehehhee
<ckontros> The *big* thing we
<ckontros> doh
<astraljava> Not an altogether impossible idea. :D
<astraljava> Just for the heck of it. :D
<ckontros> The *big* thing we'll have to watch out for is *apps* that pull GNOME depends. Could inflate our disk size dramatically.
<astraljava> That's right.
<ckontros> Some weird app that wants to pull Nautilus and therefore half of GNOME with it.
<ckontros> I do like Thunar, but I miss my Nautilus tabs right about now. :( But I think the switch is good and gonna work fine. We just have to test alot to be sure of the switch. I don't wanna switch back to GNOME in 2 cycles. :P
<astraljava> Hehe... I haven't touched Nautilus (in the GUI sense for browsing the filesystem) in several years. It's all terminal for me, so wouldn't possibly interact with Thunar at all.
<astraljava> But you're right, switching back and forth is crazy.
 * ScottL is cooking dinner for the kids and reading backscroll
<ckontros> Later guys. PM if needed.
<ScottL> it will be interesting to see what the daily images are like before we change the seeds
<astraljava> ScottL: True. :D
#ubuntustudio-devel 2011-05-17
<ScottL> someone just sent me this link about us moving to xfce: http://www.computerworld.com.au/article/386600/ubuntu_studio_says_no_unity_adopts_xfce/
<ScottL> looks like it's being picked up as an anti-unity/not towing canonical line issue
<Kokito> good evening folks
<ScottL> hi Kokito 
<ScottL> here's something a little weird:  http://www.computerworld.com.au/article/386600/ubuntu_studio_says_no_unity_adopts_xfce/
<Kokito> Hey ScottL !
<Kokito__> sorry ScottL my chrome netbook crashed
<holstein> Kokito__: ?
<holstein> you got one of the new official chrome netbooks?
<Kokito__> got one from the pilot program
<holstein> interesting
<Kokito__> in January
<holstein> what do you think
<holstein> hows the battery?
<Kokito__> battery os good
<Kokito__> is
<holstein> cool
<Kokito__> but the browser crashes too often
<holstein> :/
<holstein> odd
<holstein> i use chromium
<holstein> and its cool
<holstein> usually*
<holstein> Kokito__: local storage at all?
<Kokito__> holstein: yes, but can only be accessed through the browser AFAICT
<holstein> small local storage?
<holstein> or is it decent?
<holstein> like 4gb's or so?
<holstein> at least
<Kokito__> I think the total is 16GB
<holstein> cool
<Kokito__> yeah, got it for free, so can't complain
<holstein> sure
<Kokito__> but this browser-constrained user experience is not my piece of cake :)
<holstein> i heard a thing about them today
<holstein> Kokito__: you got cell wifi?
<Kokito__> I have regular wifi
<Kokito__> not through my cell, I mean
<Kokito__> ScottL: can you paste that URL again please?
<holstein> http://www.computerworld.com.au/article/386600/ubuntu_studio_says_no_unity_adopts_xfce/
<holstein> ^ that one?
<Kokito__> yep. thanks!
<Kokito__> ScottL: so, what's your take reaction to the article on computer world?
<ScottL> Kokito__, sorry was upstairs working on gnome3 and pulse/jack integration
<ScottL> Kokito__, i skimmed through it (because it's about me and it makes me uncomfortable reading about me)
<ScottL> but my first thought was that it was a bit of sensationalism to bash unity
<holstein> yeah
<holstein> i wish it had less unity bashing
<holstein> or none
<holstein> but, its a good article
<ScottL> we are such a niche group that our opinion should not be weighted for any decisions
<ScottL> holstein, you should look at the images at:  http://www.fossmusicproject.org/public/
<ScottL> holstein, i managed to get gnome 3 from a fedora live disc to dump into "fallback" mode
<ScottL> which looks remarkably like gnome-panel
<ScottL> i need to also email david henningsonn about what he said about jack and pulse working together, i don't think they do with ubuntu studio
<holstein> ScottL: yeah
<holstein> thats what i found
<holstein> not the same functionality though
<holstein> at all
<holstein> fact is, XFCE is the most like gnome2 of any currently supported DE
<holstein> ScottL: im not sure about that either
<holstein> the pulse jack thing
<holstein> sounds too easy to be true
<holstein> ive used falks pulse-jack package
<holstein> and ive read about how to do it the hard way
<ScottL> david has an email on the -devel list about this, i'm going to hit him back with what i did and how it responded and see what he says
<holstein> yeah, im following it closely
<holstein> that thread
<ScottL> holstein, why do you say not the same functionality, it was pretty much the same i thought
<holstein> i hope it is that easy
<holstein> ScottL: right click anywhere
<holstein> or try doing anything you would do
<holstein> to customize gnome2
<Kokito__> ScottL & holstein: I agree the author's interpretation of the intent in the switch to XFCE is off. but I am not surprised. :)
<ScottL> holstein, i haven't tried that, but i shall
<holstein> ScottL: the look is clost
<holstein> close*
<holstein> but the feel is far off i find
<ScottL> holstein, i see what you mean now
<ScottL> Kokito__, that is true
<ScottL> i'm going to bed
<Kokito__> good night ScottL 
<ScottL> hi  quadrispro  abogani 
<abogani> ScottL: Hi Scott
<quadrispro> hi ScottL abo
<quadrispro> uh, gone
<ScottL> lol
<ScottL> quadrispro, what i was going to ask you about earlier was if you can think of any new plugins that we might want to include in ocelot
<ScottL> quadrispro, and if you have had any practical experience with ladish...i've been playing with it to make sure i include everything needed for ocelot
<quadrispro> ScottL, on phone, back soon
<ScottL> quadrispro, no problem
<ScottL> :)
<quadrispro> ScottL, if you know other plugins, ping me
<quadrispro> and, regarding ladish, we need to handle the lash2ladish transition
<quadrispro> shortly, the most important point now is removing lash
<ScottL> quadrispro, re: plugins, i'm sorry, didn't explain very well, i meant any of the plugins that recently have gone into debian during natty and now that might be really interesting
<ScottL> e.g. i'm going to make sure the foo-yc20 is included
<quadrispro> sure, foo-yc20 would be useful!
 * quadrispro having a look at Natty's archive
<quadrispro> ScottL, did someone backport mda-lv2 to maverick?
<ScottL> i try to keep up with the debain multimedia ML and catch what i think is interesting but there is soo much traffic and i don't always see stuff
<ScottL> quadrispro, i don't know if it was backported to maverick
<ScottL> i do have it on my list to confirm it's in ocelot however :)
<ScottL> actually it appears to be top of the list :)  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/ReleasePlanning#audio%20plugins
<quadrispro> it's already in Natty
<ScottL> oh good, i didn't remember if it was or not
<quadrispro> ScottL, not eq10q 
<quadrispro> I believe a backport would be appreciated
<quadrispro> ScottL, wah-plugins is in Natty
<quadrispro> vocproc is in Ubuntu since Maverick
<quadrispro> autotalent is in Natty
<quadrispro> and invada's lv2 stuff is available in Ubuntu since Lucid
<quadrispro> I'm sorry for mixxx, but it was late for getting new release into 11.104
<quadrispro> 11.04 *
<quadrispro> a backport might be feasible, I think
<ScottL> quadrispro, when you say "not eq10q"...are you saying we shouldn't ship it or we aren't shipping it and should?
<ScottL> oh and don't spend too much time digging around, i was curious if there were any outstanding ones that we absolutely should include ;)
<quadrispro> ScottL, sorry, eq10q hits Ubuntu Oneiric 
<ScottL> and i further apologize, but i must leave to take kids to school/daycare and go to work, although i will be on again in about an hour though
<quadrispro> natty doesn't have it
<ScottL> okay, i'll adjust my list to reflect it :)
<quadrispro> ScottL, just few quick checks don't hurt, no problem :)
<quadrispro> ScottL, we have also updated gwc, many users may find it interesting
<ScottL> oohhhh, i don't know aobut gwc, i'll look at it
<quadrispro> going away, see you later
<scott-work> good answer to that email holstein about gnome2 and asking someone to maintain it if they want it
<astraljava> scott-work: Wasn't it specifically about maintaining GNOME 3 and Unity related packages? After all, having packages depend on GNOME 2 components becomes impossible now?
<scott-work> i believe that is true astraljava 
<astraljava> scott-work: Got thinking about this, especially after ckontros cracking jokes about KDE-based Studio. I might tinker with such packages in my PPA. Very interested to see what kind of results one could get.
<astraljava> scott-work: The idea being there would be different metapackages for different DEs.
<astraljava> scott-work: Naturally totally out of Ubuntu Studio's scope.
<astraljava> But lending from its packages heavily.
<astraljava> But that's off-topic, just thought I'd share. :)
<scott-work> astraljava: have you tried kxstudio?
<scott-work> it's kde based and qutie pretty and way too monotone dark for me
<astraljava> scott-work: No I haven't, will have to one of these days.
<scott-work> it becomes hard to differentiate one window from the next because it's uniform black all around :(
<astraljava> Oh okay, yeah that's not nice.
<holstein> scott-work: thats the kind of thing i should clear with you
<holstein> but i was on a roll :)
<holstein> and i figured, it is a community effort
<holstein> if someone wants to come and start and maintain a meta
<holstein> that should be welcomed right?
<holstein> i mean, within reason*
<astraljava> holstein: I don't see why not.
<holstein> :)
<astraljava> The team does one thing, and won't suppress the community efforts in any way.
<holstein> well, anyone can always do a PPA
<holstein> even if it conflicts with what we are doing or whatever
<astraljava> Naturally, that's just what I threatened to do on my 'own' time above. :D
<holstein> astraljava: thats a good place to test things too
<astraljava> That's true.
 * holstein gotta run... BBL
<scott-work> holstein: absolutely!  and you don't need to clear that stuff with me
<scott-work> i'm not sure anyone really needs to "clear" stuff with me
<scott-work> i think it was a good thing to say, anything that helps get community involvement probably is a good thing ;)
<astraljava> scott-work: You got that right. We need to gain velocity and interest. :)
<holstein> i feel like ralph and i are playing a game of chess ;)
<holstein> i think by the time that thread reaches 100+ emails
<holstein> we are either going to be best friends
<holstein> or dropping F bombs left and right
<astraljava> Truly might be one or the other. :D
<scott-work> lol holstein that's funny
<scott-work> hi again quadrispro 
<scott-work> my nanokontrol should be here by the weekend :)   i'm pretty damn stoked about it
<holstein> w00t
<holstein> those things are sweet
<holstein> i was thinking about one
<quadrispro> hi scott-work, hi all
<holstein> mapping to ardour and sooperlooper
<holstein> quadrispro: o/
<scott-work> holstein: stuzz has me geared up to rerecord my parts for my song now that he rocked the drums on it
<scott-work> holstein: i think stuzz probably did a better job than jono might have ;)
<quadrispro> hi holstein !
<quadrispro> scott-work, the next few days I'll have some packages to fix
<astraljava> nanokontrol?
<quadrispro> csound, gwc (fix is ready, will touch debian in few hours)
<quadrispro> ecasound
<quadrispro> and then I'd start the transition, at least in Ubuntu, from lash to ladish 
<holstein> yeah, stuzz has quite a skill with h2
<scott-work> quadrispro: that is super cool (transition from lash to ladish)
<scott-work> quadrispro: i've said before, if nedko can fulfill his vision (which is pretty aggressive, i admit) then he will outstrip what i perceive jack-session is doing
<quadrispro> i only need to to write down a list of all packages supporting lash, ries.debian.org will help me
<scott-work> quadrispro: is there an easy way with packages.debian.org or similar site that will help me look for all the plugins available (lv2, ladspa, etc)?
<quadrispro> scott-work, http://blends.alioth.debian.org/multimedia/tasks/packagelist.it.html
<quadrispro> and http://blends.alioth.debian.org/multimedia/tasks/
<scott-work> oh sweet, i will check them out
<quadrispro> ;)
<scott-work> last cycle i went through and combed through all available plugins to include what i could
<scott-work> but i also "updated" in some cases from ladspa to lv2
<scott-work> i think the swh and maybe one other i "updated" and removed the ladspa package
<scott-work> hi saidinesh5 !  welcome to the channel
<quadrispro> well done
<saidinesh5> hello guys :)
<quadrispro> falktx might be happy to know that I'm on fst, I hope to see it in Debian soon
<saidinesh5> you know i didn't know that ubuntu studio is still active until just now i have seen the announcement in phronix (Y)
<astraljava> saidinesh5: Interesting. We haven't missed a release ever since the first.
<scott-work> saidinesh5: do you have a link?
<scott-work> quadrispro: yes, i believe falktx will be happy
<saidinesh5> http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=OTQ1Mw
<scott-work> i saw something recently in the ubuntu bug about fst
<saidinesh5> astraljava: Oh last i tried ubuntu studio out was about a year (and a half maybe)ago   can't remember
<scott-work> aaaahhhhh! another "ubuntu studio hates unity and gnome3" article :/
<saidinesh5> just graduated from college, so may be i ll have chance to dig some music making apps again , so will probably give ubuntu studio another chance :)
<scott-work> we don't hate them :P   we just prefer that gnome2 workflow
<astraljava> Heheh. :)
<saidinesh5> hehe
<saidinesh5> btw. does the iso include a wubi installer ??
<saidinesh5> i remember installing from an alternate iso the last time
<quadrispro> scott-work, why not getting rid of pulseaudio?
<quadrispro> I say: s/PulseAudio/JACK/
<scott-work> quadrispro: are you asking why don't we get rid of JACK?
<astraljava> saidinesh5: No it doesn't, it's the alternate install version.
<scott-work> thanks for the link saidinesh5 , i need to start collecting these somewhere :P
<quadrispro> scott-work, no, sorry: I'd like to avoid using PulseAudio
<saidinesh5> scott-work: you are welcome :)
<saidinesh5> astraljava: any reason that we don't give out a wubi installer?
<scott-work> quadrispro: i would too my friend ;)
<scott-work> unfortunately, we may simply only be able to integrate it better
<scott-work> quadrispro: i'm workign with david henningsonn on this currently via ubuntustudio-devel ML
<scott-work> he actually works at canonical on audio apparently
<quadrispro> yes, I see, but... ok, pulse must be in place since it's installed by default
<quadrispro> well.. why not avoiding it to run at startup?
<astraljava> saidinesh5: Simplicity. I don't think you'd get the latency as low as you'd like when running in a sandbox like that. But I am no expert on such matters, so take this with a grain of salt.
<scott-work> quadrispro: that is a possiblity, i'm not a robust developer, can you explain more how this might be accomplished
<quadrispro> please note that ladish seems to conflict with jack and pulse-to-jack connector
<scott-work> quadrispro: we could certainly incorporate this into ubuntustudio-settings or something
<scott-work> ladish seems to conflict with jack?
<saidinesh5> astraljava: but i don't think the latency is due to the disk access when using the real time apps ....
<quadrispro> scott-work, no :) sorry again
<quadrispro> I've encountered some issue while using the pulse's jack connector
<scott-work> quadrispro: that's okay :)  i can probably bug someone on the #ubuntu-desktop channel about it
<scott-work> quadrispro: and falktx probably knows a trick or two about it as well
<quadrispro> pulseaudio-module-jack, that's the runtime package
<astraljava> saidinesh5: Yeah, like I said, I haven't gotten too familiar with real-time. But to answer your installer question, that was it.
<saidinesh5> hmm.......  
 * saidinesh5 needs to figure out a way to test drive ubuntu studio ..... especially since he has ran out of free partitions 
<astraljava> saidinesh5: You can always run the vanilla live-cd, then install all ubuntustudio-* packages on top. Won't get you the real thing, but neither would the live-DVD, albeit much closer. Maybe try the usb stick approach, which enables persistency.
<scott-work> quadrispro: i will keep that in mind to explore with david 
<quadrispro> ;)
<saidinesh5> astraljava: yes, but still setting up all the environment for Music making is a huge PITA iirc
<scott-work> saidinesh5: it's not nearly as bad as it used to be
<scott-work> just like how many -rt improvements have been incorporated into the kernel, many settings have been resolved in other areas
<scott-work> there's not many things a user needs to do in order to setup a "vanilla" install to record music these days
<scott-work> they're still there, mind you ;)   just not as imposing as before
<saidinesh5> scott-work: well i remember accepting some weird agreement from steinberg to just get Qtractor compile with vst support
<saidinesh5> and then wine + half my vsts don't work
<saidinesh5> hehe brb: pizza time :D
<astraljava> Mmmm... pizza.
<astraljava> Anyone else have problems with scrobbling to last.fm?
<scott-work> sorry astraljava , i don't use last.fm
<astraljava> Damn, you totally should. :)
<saidinesh5> hmm..... back :)
 * saidinesh5 luves the combo of extra cheese pizza + BBT 
<astraljava> saidinesh5: Grrr... :D
<saidinesh5> hehe
<saidinesh5> so ya, now first i need to find a way to test drive ubuntu studio
<saidinesh5> no extra partitions available...... no large enough pendrives....... dislike virtual machines
<scott-work> hi troy_s  :)
<troy_s> scott-work: Greets.
<scott-work> mudita24
<holstein> scott-work: latest linux action show mention US too
<holstein> about the XFCE switch
<holstein> didnt frame unity negatively at all too
<holstein> i liked that
<holstein> they agreed with the idea
<scott-work> holstein: oh, good :)
<scott-work> that's nice
<holstein> they only said 'instead of adopting gnome3 or unity...'
<scott-work> i'm thinking about asking the debian multimedia team to package mudita24:  http://code.google.com/p/mudita24/
<scott-work> it's an envy24control replacement that has graduated scale for the sliders...they have good images on the website
<holstein> scott-work: that would get it down to us quickier
<holstein> i bet
<holstein> yeah, thats nice
<holstein> i dont need an internal mixer for the firepod
<holstein> so, i have only messed with jack-mixer
<scott-work> heh, that's a good use for jack-mixer, do we ship it by default?
<holstein> scott-work: hmmm
<holstein> good question
<holstein> we should*
<scott-work> i thought of jack-mixer for things like podcasts or doing live music
<holstein> and i dont think so
<holstein> thats when i found it
<holstein> that should be in the podcasting meta
<scott-work> yeah, if people who use firewire devices might use it too then we probably should ship it as well
<scott-work> then email and blog about it's potential
<holstein> yup
<holstein> some screenies here and there
<scott-work> trying to schedule with dan and fab about doing an interview for the xfce switch
<holstein> we'll get jono to blog about it :)
<scott-work> lol, yeah
<scott-work> it would be interesting to start making songs with slightly nonsensical titles like, "Pulse Audio Mates with my Germanium Last Night"
<scott-work> just for fun, mind you
<holstein> i just found a delta44 on craigslist
<holstein> locally
<holstein> ill try and pick it up :)
<scott-work> sweet, they're nice
<scott-work> or "Jono Wears Little Socks on his Ears"
<scott-work> how much is the 44?
<holstein> $35
<holstein> IF its still there
<holstein> we'll see
<holstein> "my ex-wives use proprietary DAW's"
<scott-work> lawlz
<scott-work> sweet deal with the 44 though
<holstein> it doesnt look special, so maybe it slipped through the cracks
<holstein> and is still available
<holstein> * like i need more gear
<holstein> alright.. off to the gig.. BBL
<scott-work> lol, i'll by it from you :)
<holstein> scott-work: we could make that happen
<holstein> ill let you know if i get it
<holstein> if not, im going to just be looking for a delta1010
<holstein> not the lt one
<holstein> so, i'll link you if/when i find them
<holstein> anyhow.. BBL
<scott-work> rockon
<scott-work> hi pdxken !  welcome to the channel, how are you?
<pdxken> Great! Thanks
<pdxken> Any problem using UStudio stuff with Lubuntu? Now use Kubuntu on old P4.
<scott-work> pdxken: shouldn't be any trouble using it with Lubuntu
<scott-work> quadrispro: i was going to file an RFP for mudita24:  http://code.google.com/p/mudita24/source/checkout
<scott-work> quadrispro: i'm tempted to try to package it but i just don't think i'll have time for it sadly :(
<scott-work> way too many other irons in the fire
<scott-work> pdxken: keep in mind, one of the ubuntustudio- packages replaces the desktop, so if you are partial to your setup you might want to try to find it and avoid it
<quadrispro> scott-work, if you have the hardware to use for testing
<scott-work> quadrispro: i do have it
<quadrispro> well
<quadrispro> scott-work, so RFP, I'll touch it later
<astraljava> I have an M-Audio 24/96 card as well, more than happy to pay attention to it too.
<pdxken>  KDE getting too big, not sure if I want LXDE or XFCE
<scott-work> pdxken: the team has been talking about moving to xfce for the next release in october
<astraljava> pdxken: I'm more personally interested in LXDE, but willing to go officially with the team towards XFCE.
<pdxken> Thanks. sounds like a good one to try.
<pdxken> I may try both on extra prtitions.
<astraljava> pdxken: That's the ideal solution, so you get the initial experience from both worlds. Just remember to check back once they're officially released.
<scott-work> quadrispro: i really want to package something so i might see about pushing some other stuff off presently, let me look at the svn checkout later when i get home
<scott-work> i would still like to contribute something to debian
<scott-work> i'm also trying to get upload rights to the ubuntustudio packages in ubuntu for this cycle so i dont' have to rely (read: bug) TheMuso so much
<scott-work> this will also be especially true for this release if we move to xfce
<scott-work> i think this will be true even if we don't go with xfce because of the change with gnome
<scott-work> speaking of TheMuso, how did your chat go with Andy?
<scott-work> i'm particularly anxious to lay out a plan for the -lowlatency kernel
<quadrispro> scott-work, CC me in the RFP if you want
<scott-work> quadrispro: ack
#ubuntustudio-devel 2011-05-18
<Kokito> hello folks
<holstein> Kokito: o/
<holstein> i thought it was time for you to show up
<Kokito> hehe :)
<Kokito> having a coffee at Starbucks and catching up with email and such
<Kokito> how are you holstein ?
<holstein> cool
<holstein> Kokito: im good
<holstein> im thinking about buying some ram
<Kokito> ram is so cheap these days
<holstein> if i max out my recording rig
<holstein> i can move the old memory over to my server
<holstein> SO, its like buying ram for 2 machines
<holstein> kinda
<holstein> looks like for $130, i can have 8gb's on my production machine, and 2gb's on my server
<Kokito> nice
<Kokito> ok, gotta go back home now
<holstein> Kokito: laterx :)
<Kokito> I am converting my VHS into digital format, and need to be back before the movie ends :)
<Kokito> I meant to say "VHS collection"
<Kokito> see ya!
<scott-work> hi Daviey !
<scott-work> what's up paultag ?
<scott-work> holstein: i was talking about with cory about the gnome3 compatibility mode that they call "gnome-panel" and i realized something
<scott-work> holstein: i found the graphics dated looking, like it was a regression to an earlier version of a gnome-panel theme
<scott-work> it was very unpolished looking
<Daviey> scott-work, !
<scott-work> hi JFo  :)
 * jussi grins at JFo's ident and wonders if jfo is an ubuntu member?
<scott-work> no, say it isn't so!  JFo 's not a ubuntu member?  heresy!
<JFo> heya scott-work 
<JFo> sorry was away from this machine for a moment
<JFo> jussi, nope, not yet
<JFo> the unaffiliated cloak is old
<jussi> JFo: !! not a member? 
<JFo> there should be an ubuntu one there, but something is still presenting it from showing
<jussi> JFo: but you are a member? 
<JFo> jussi, nope, just haven't had the time to apply :-)
<jussi> JFo: ahh, you dont get a ubuntu/member cloak until you are a member. 
<JFo> well, haven't TAKEN the time ;-)
<JFo> jussi, no, but I should have a canonical one
<JFo> that was what I meant
<JFo> sorry for the confusion
<jussi> JFo: yes, for that you need to ping Joey
<JFo> right, and I did, so I should have it
<JFo> there is just something that keeps it from showing over the unaffiliated one
<jussi> ahh, so we can blame joey then :P
<JFo> indeed! :)
<jussi> JFo: if/when you get membership, we will give you a ubuntu/member clok :D
<JFo> jussi, of course
<Daviey> JFo, Dude, you so need to get ubuntu membership... you get free subscription to lwn (!!!!!!!!!!) . :)
<JFo> Daviey, :-)
 * ckontros waves.
<ckontros> ScottL: Please get this crap where we can't upload to our BZR branches sorted. (whatever the story is) This is ridiculous.
<ckontros> It begins: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/Artwork/OfficialOneiric
<ckontros> PM if needed.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2011-05-19
<Kokito> hello folks
<Kokito> hi ScottL 
<ScottL> hi Kokito 
<Kokito> how are you today ScottL ?
<scott-work> hi persia :)  haven't seen you for a while, i hope you enjoyed UDS
<scott-work> hi paultag
<persia> scott-work, I did, although I'll admit to not managing to do any stuff related to Ubuntu Studio whilst I was there.
<scott-work> lol, hopefully luke talked to andy about the -lowlatency kernel
<scott-work> i'm very, very keen to get that into the repos this cycle
<persia> Do you have it in shape for upload?
<persia> I hear that 2.6.40 is the target this cycle.
<scott-work> no, abogani had 2.6.39 in a git repo and i built it in my ppa for -lowlatency
<persia> I don't think .40 is out upstream yet, so .39 ought work for now.
<scott-work> it looks if alessio will continue to maintain his git.ubuntu then i will build and maintain the -lowlatency kernel
<scott-work> i'll need to look at what we have because i haven't touched it in probably two months
<persia> OK.  Take a look, prep it for oneiric, and we can drop it in.  Best to get it well before feature freeze.
<persia> (before DIF is even easier)
<scott-work> when will the repos open?
<scott-work> it's here if you're interested in looking at it: https://launchpad.net/~slavender/+archive/broken
<persia> Repos are open already
<scott-work> that will make cory happy, he's been wanting to update some packages because of the gnome2/unity issue
<persia> Excellent
<scott-work> persia: have you kept up with some of the news?  we are looking at moving to xfce for the DE instead of unity/gnome3
<persia> I saw that.  Have you talked to charlie_tca about it?
<scott-work> cory sent an email to the xubuntu-dev mailing list, i would presume that he saw it
<scott-work> but, no, i have not spoken directly to charlie about it
<scott-work> now i have, though
<persia> Oh, probably.  I just tend to think in terms of personal interactions to ensure things go smoothly, but I tend to assume there will be problems with everything, which isn't always the case :)
<persia> Heh :)
<scott-work> he hasn't responded yet, so i still don't know that he's seen my comment :P
<holstein> scott-work: are you following that icon set thread?
<holstein> http://gnome-look.org/content/show.php/Faenza?content=128143
<holstein> ^ those *are* awesome looking
<holstein> not sure how we would go about getting them in the repo where we could use them
<holstein> persia: o/
<persia> Hey holstein 
<scott-work> holstein: i thought someone was already going to use faenza for something, meaning it was going to already be put into the repos, i could be wrong though
<holstein> scott-work: that would be great
<holstein> we should figure out who though
<holstein> and why
<holstein> so we dont steal someones awesome new icon idea
<holstein> *not that theres anything wrong with that
<scott-work> oh, maybe it was in a PPA, not the repos :(
<holstein> a PPA was linked
<scott-work> http://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2010/08/faenza-icon-set-gets-a-ppa/
<holstein> it would be kinda awesome to get icons in the repo
<holstein> start contributing and have unique icons
<scott-work> this doens't preclude it from getting it into the repos*, but this may be too much work for this cycle with everything else going on
<holstein> could be
<scott-work> * of course, it if had a shitty license then _that_ would preclude it
<scott-work> cory has contact with two artist types that seem interested in working with ubuntu studio
<holstein> says GPL
<scott-work> these are "outside" types, meaning that they aren't already working with the ubuntu art group
<holstein> dick is our art guy right?
<holstein> i think sooner is better than later
<holstein> trying to push icons in
<holstein> now, there are probably people actually *not* working day and nite on ubuntu
<holstein> at least for another week or so
<scott-work> holstein: yes, dick is the art guy, i'm worried about his involvement because he doesn't seemed to be very involved and his communication is sporadic
<scott-work> holstein: he has reasons for this, but i do not feel that i have the authority to declare them
<scott-work> it's all a bit touch and go, so we shall see how it goes
<scott-work> holstein:  as far as the icon set, i would think we need to concentrate first on the DE and UI switch, then see if we can get faenza into the mix
<scott-work> it just might be something that we need to push until next release
<persia> If there are multiple interesting things, I would generally recommend working to get them all in the archive, which can make the discussion of what to select by default much easier.
<scott-work> holstein: would you like to have a go at getting the faenza icon set into the repository?
<holstein> scott-work: well, i was thinking that might be something i could do
<holstein> if its just a matter of talking to the right person
<holstein> im giving another presentation on linux audio here in a bit :)
#ubuntustudio-devel 2011-05-20
 * ckontros waves.
<holstein> ckontros: o/
<holstein> ckontros: thats great news about the art :)
<ckontros> That guy shoulda emailed the user list. The -dev list isnt for support.
<ckontros> User list then escalate to -dev if its a bug.
<holstein> ckontros: good point
<holstein> i didnt notice
<holstein> i have them filtered similarly in gmail
<ckontros> holstein: re: art. Yeah. It's really early in the process. Just fleshing out details. (what's required and all) I'll make public everything once there's something interesting.
<ScottL> hi ckontros 
<ScottL> lol holstein, i'm guessing that your icon set comments were because of the email
<ScottL> i didn't see it until i was on my way home with my phone
<holstein> yeah, i dont mind trying to do something about that
<holstein> if its just talking to someone
<ScottL> holstein, my guess is that the package in ppa is in pretty good shape but you will probably still need to give it some love to make it ready
<ScottL> this wouldn't be just talking to someone to get it in
<holstein> well, maybe i can talk someone into it
<holstein> :/
<ScottL> lol :)
<ScottL> you can try, my friend, and i hope you succeed!
<holstein> im pretty sure it would take me the cycle to learn to maintain anything
<holstein> even an icon set
<ScottL> i would really like to get mudita24 into debian and then into ubuntu
<holstein> so, thats not going to help
<ckontros> Note that the last line in my last icon email shoulda read: "Â In what *form* will be determined later."
<holstein> yeah, maybe we should tackle this stuff in the meetings
<holstein> just have a 'we are voting on icons' meeting
<holstein> and get it over with
<holstein> seems like theres so much room for opinions
<holstein> which is fine
<ckontros> We're never short on opinions. Just people to *do* things. ;) (story of the project really)
<ckontros> And art decisions are easy. *Nobody* will like everything we do. Just how it is. We have other great art out there if folks want it.
<holstein> yeah, thats why its so easy to change it all anyways
<ScottL> ckontros, is right, getting things done is the problem
<ckontros> We need folks to fix bugs and really trouble-shoot problend and post detailed info.
<holstein> the art has always looked great though
<holstein> im not worried
<ScottL> honestly, i'm tired of talking about things in meeting and small groups and then nothing happening
<holstein> ckontros: that was all your work before right?
<holstein> the look and feel?
<holstein> and theme?
<holstein> since like 9.04?
 * ckontros is all about gettin'-it-done. hehe :P
<ckontros> holstein: Theme will get a facelift from the Shimmer guys but colors will remain the same.
<ScottL> holstein, i think the theme and art was mostly cory's work, although i believe the wallpaper was something he found
<ckontros> ScottL: You get my note about our locked branches? We *need* to fix that shit.
<ScottL> correct me if i'm wrong ckontros 
<ckontros> I've always found artists for the wallpaper.
<ScottL> ckontros, i don't think i got the note, was it pm or email?
<holstein> i remember routinely installing the ubuntustudio themes and wallpaper on all my machines for a bit 
<ckontros> Everything else I had a heavy hand in creating.
<ckontros> ScottL: I noted it in-channel yesterday.
<ckontros> We just gotta get ownership back of our branches.
<ScottL> ckontros, sorry, my computer is all over the place, it hard locks up every now and then with 11.04 and unity
<ckontros> Gotcha
<ScottL> and i routinely miss lots of things
<ScottL> shhh, don't tell anyone but i'm going to install xubuntu 11.04 on this machine and get rid of unity
<ScottL> anyway, ckontros , i'll dig around and see what i can do
<ckontros> \m/ I've been diggin'  it.
<ckontros> ScottL: Cool
<ScottL> i'm running xubuntu upstairs on another machine
<ScottL> ckontros, i did find out some stuff from james_w
<holstein> im ready for xubuntu 11.10
 * ckontros listens
<holstein> theres a bug in 11.04 for my wifi hardware
<ScottL> the branches under ubuntu are mirrors that are required to actually get the packages into the repos to be included on images
<ScottL> james_w says we should still own the stuff under ubuntustudio-dev
<ScottL> also, the directories that were coming up when branching from our stuff is correct
<ScottL> some of the actually say "UbuntuStudio" instead of "ubuntustudio-menu" or such
<ckontros> ScottL: Then someone is gonna have to walk me through it. I have codes to upload to all of our main branches and none work. Even you had an issue right?
<ScottL> i'm going to make a silly update and push it either tonight or tomorrow just to validate
<ScottL> ckontros, i was having problems with the laptop downstairs (this one), but i don't usually do code on it
<ckontros> gotcha
<ScottL> if i can't get the one upstairs to work then i'm in the same shit
<ScottL> ckontros, but i'm wondering if you need the right or another ssh key?
 * ScottL is speculating
<ckontros> Naa... I updated everything.
<ckontros> Just let me know how your test goes.
<ScottL> i'm trying to get the kids settled and then i go upstairs to work on david henningson's email and then i try this upload bidness
<ckontros> ScottL: np. Im gonna hang with the fam now anyway. Ill be around tomorrow. No rush.
<ckontros> later
<ckontros> PM if needed.
<ScottL> holstein, did you see stochastic reply to the icon thread?
<ScottL> i was surprised that he liked it...but happy about it :)
<persia> Re: branches:
<persia> So, there's two types of branches for interesting packages.
<persia> 1) the branches we had from way long ago.
<persia> 2) Branches created based on the uploads to the archive.
<persia> These reflect two different ways of maintaining the stuff in bzr.
<persia> A) having lots of people commit to the branch, and then a few people we trust to upload process that
<persia> B) Having the people who commit to the branch and the people who can upload it be the same people.
<persia> Given the distributed nature of bzr, style B is recommended, which then works best if one has the primary branch of the packages of interest be of type 2
<persia> (with a future goal of having a commit to that branch auto-upload into the archive)
<persia> So, the easy way to make sure that the folk working on stuff can work on those is as follows:
<persia> 1) Verification of the set of packages of interest (typically these would be everything in Ubuntu Studio not in something else)
<persia> 2) Request to the DMB to make a packageset for these associated with a group in LP
<persia> 3) Members that we trust to make changes to these packages are confirmed by the DMB to be members of this group.
<persia> Note that in addition to being able to commit to the branches, this also grants upload to the archive, which may mean things should be thought about differently.
<ScottL> persia, "this also grants upload to the archive", interesting, i was going to applying for either per-package upload rights or try to get ubuntustudio-dev recognized as an upload team
<persia> I'd recommend the latter.  Having that happen was always part of the original plan (at least since the UDS for Intrepid), but until now, there's been no candidate for whom it is useful.
<ScottL> the later was supposed to be "delegated team" for a "package set"
<ScottL> i notice that kubuntu, mythbuntu and edubuntu are already there
<persia> Right.
<persia> Also xubuntu, ubuntu desktop, and ubuntu server
<persia> Ubuntu Studio is the only one outstanding (and Lubuntu, but they're still putting the finishing touches on being official)
<ScottL> i decided that i (at least) needed to work on acquiring upload rights because this cycle should be pretty involved and i didn't want to keep bugging you and luke
<ScottL> i thought also cory should have it as well
<persia> You're getting close to having enough work recorded on launchpad to be able to be granted rights, although you'll have to write a good wiki page talking about some of the more complicated stuff you've done, etc.
<persia> Looking at https://launchpad.net/~coryisatm/+related-software, I don't believe I'd be prepared to support upload rights on current history: some more recent work needs doing, and some more volume.
<persia> Getting the packageset approved ought be fairly easy, and I suspect that all of Luke, Alessio, and I would be happy to be the initial members.
<persia> (maybe other folk also, but those names spring instantly to mind)
<persia> For you, I'd recommend a few more uploads, and careful documentation of your habit of doing bugfix work in Debian and your work in backports (so that people aren't wondering about how little you do).
<ScottL> that is good because of some of the requirements delineated in the wiki
<ScottL> ^^^ "I suspect that all of Luke, Alessio, and I would be happy to be the initial members"
<ScottL> persia, i think there will be several more uploads in the coming months for oneiric ;)
<ScottL> and i will work on documentation
<ScottL> when i applied for membership, someone commented on the depth of my documentation
<ScottL> i believe i simply replied, "persia told me to documention _everything_"
<ScottL> which i pretty much had at that point
<persia> Documenting _everything_ is good.  waiting so long that people wonder why you have too much documentation is not so good :)
<persia> But, yeah, the list of LP uploads is close to the minimum I expect for upload applicants: but the list fails to show stuff like your deep efforts with seeds, tasks, and metapackages, your bugfix collaboration with debian-multimedia, etc.
 * abogani waves all
<ScottL> hi abogani 
<ScottL> i was talking with persia yesterday about the -lowlatency kernel
<ScottL> he is quite keen on getting it into the repos
<ScottL> abogani, my plan is to package and maintain it, are you still up to helping me as we discussed previously?
 * ScottL is leaving for work, see you as scott-work in thirty minutes
<abogani> scott-work: Yes I'm going to help you in any way I know. Please consider that I can't stand to interact with UKT.
<abogani> scott-work: Got it?
<scott-work> abogani: ack'd
<abogani> scott-work: Ok.
<scott-work> abogani: much earlier i suspected your frustration (at least some of it) originated from this and wanted to insert myself between the two as a buffer
<abogani> scott-work: I prefer interact with upstream.
<scott-work> i am quite happy to serve as a liaison or intermediary with UKT :)
<abogani> scott-work: Fi that makes you happy ;)
<abogani> *if
<abogani> scott-work: We have to decide about the Natty' version of lowlatency kernel. We continue to provide 2.6.38? Or we move on to 2.6.39 only?
<scott-work> while i am unsure if the actual interaction will give me please, i certainly know that help you will
<scott-work> getting a greatly needed kernel into the repos will make me happy as well
<abogani> scott-work: I'm not updated about -lowlatency kernel: Is it so useful?
<scott-work> abogani: do you see a reason for not providing 2.6.39 in natty?
<scott-work> abogani: yes!  the tests that ailo and i have done show that we can half the stable latencies with the -lowlatency over the -generic
<abogani> scott-work: Impressive.
<abogani> scott-work: Re 2.6.30: No but I can't be use that closed video drivers still working.
<abogani> *39
<scott-work> abogani: given that 2.6.9 allows for adjusting irq priorities i would greatly recommend it, unless there is a substantial reason not to
<scott-work> maybe ailo can offer some input because i general don't use closed drivers (my card is too old to be supported :(  )
<abogani> I vote for move on 2.6.39 (and discard 2.6.38 because don't worth doubling the work).
<scott-work> abogani: agreed :)
<abogani> scott-work: Ok. Next week I'll release the git repo.
<scott-work> abogani: so our plan would be to get the -lowlatency for natty and oneiric based on 2.6.39, am i misunderstanding any point?
<abogani> scott-work: No. It is exactly what I would want do.
<abogani> scott-work: Is it understandable my English today?
<scott-work> abogani: absolutely!
 * abogani has a big headache ...
<scott-work> my question was less about the language used as it was understanding our expectations of what we intend to accomplish
<scott-work> oh, sorry about your headache...i had one last week too   :/
<abogani> scott-work: Very annoying
<abogani> scott-work:  Have you heard? quadrispo is a core developer now.
<scott-work> abogani: yes!  that is awesome!
<scott-work> that is quite an achievement :)
<abogani> scott-work: Really!
 * scott-work still desires to learn more about packaging to package a new application from scratch and get it into the repositories
<scott-work> i had thought about trying my hand at mudita (the eny24control revision) but i want to get it into debian/ubuntu for oneiric if possible
<scott-work> but there is still nano-bucket (a Korg NanoKontroller editor) or butt (if it's not done already) that i can see about when i have more time, maybe towards the end of this cycle
<scott-work> persia: are you available for a few minutes to discuss direct plans for getting ubuntustudio-dev as a delegated team and also about my inclusion into that team?
 * scott-work considers that this may be two separate processes
<persia> scott-work, Sure.
<persia> (or maybe I missed you).
<persia> Anyway, I'll be around for a bit, and I'll check back in my morning.
<scott-work> persia: i'm still here for the moment but i need to step out for a few hours
<persia> With luck that will match my sleep well :)  Let's catch up later.
<scott-work> i hope to review the following in the mean time:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopers/TeamDelegation   https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DeveloperMembershipBoard/ApplicationProcess    https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ArchiveReorganisation/Permissions
<persia> Those are the best documents to the current state.  You may also want to look at the devel-permissions archives for some of the other packageset team requests.
<scott-work> persia: i have looked through the devel-permissions archives and booked what i thought was appropriate
<scott-work> there is a lot to absorb given the span of these documents so i would like to better familiarize myself with them and then i would like to continue our discussion about this
<scott-work> however, the documents seems to indicate that ubuntu studio is an almost recognized delegation team and the remaining task would be to identify the packages for our package set
<ckontros> yo
<scott-work> hi ckontros 
<ckontros> scott-work: Do we currently build our disks w/o recommends?
<scott-work> ckontros: i don't know
<scott-work> we can either ask emmett/luke or check a package
<ckontros> scott-work: It will be important as AWN pulls a bunch of GNOME stuff. Well AWN pulls applets that then pull GNOME stuff rather.
<scott-work> ckontros: right, i would look at a few packages in synaptic and see what they recommend and see if it is installed on ubuntu studio....i can do that tonight
<scott-work> i would be kinda shooting in the dark, but i think it wouldn't take too long
 * scott-work has been wrong before though ;)
<ckontros> ;)
<persia> Images are built with recommends.
<ckontros> persia: Do you know if you can specify packages to not pull recommends?
<persia> Recommends is defined as "These packages would be installed in all but unusual situations", and we assume that a first-install of a new machine isn't unusual.
<persia> Intentionally not.
<persia> The usual practice is to adjust recommends if we believe the current set not to be semantically correct.
<ckontros> Hmm... Might have to file some bugs then.
<persia> scott-work, Yeah: everything is in place except the request.  Unless there's some strong reason to do otherwise, flavour sets are typically derived from seeds.
<persia> ckontros, If you're just moving Recommends to Suggests, may as well push a bundle of patches: probably about the same amount of work as filing the bug, and more likely to get sorted soon.
<ckontros> Installing avant-window-navigator pulls the recommended applets. One of them is awn-applet-cairo-main-menu that pulls a bunch of GNOME depends.
<persia> That probably needs investigation and detangling.
<ckontros> Also, awn-settings depends on BZR and I can't gigure out why.
<ckontros> *figure
<persia> Unless you suggest that having a menu is unusual.
<ckontros> persia: awn-applet-cairo-main-menu works great without needing to pull the gconf, gnome-menu and others.
<ckontros> I'm casually talking to the AWN guys. I'll try to untangle it with them.
<persia> Bug #707863 may interest you
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 707863 in Awn "AWN depends on bzr" [Low,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/707863
<persia> You might also want to talk to gilit, who seems to be working on similar goals :)
<ckontros> Noted
<persia> Err, gilir
<persia> awn-applet-cairo-main-menu has a hard-depends on gconf: that needs code investigation.
<ckontros> I'll file a bug, and talk to upstream. I know the cario menu is gonna have XFCE support soon also.
<persia> I don't see why it's pulling gnome-menu: it should only need libgnome-menu2 (which doesn't pull gnome-menu)
<ckontros> persia: I installed it with --no-install-recommends and seems to work fine in XFCE.
<persia> And probably LXDE support (given the current focus of gilir's work in Ubuntu)
<ckontros> Agreed
<persia> The trick is figuring out *what* recommends it.
<ckontros> Yeah. Its something down the line.
<ckontros> Hopefully I can work with then to get it as desktop agnostic as possible.
<ckontros> s/then/them
<persia> It ought be relatively easy to sort, but when sorting, be sure that e.g. gnome-menu is pulled some other way for folks trying to use it (assuming it doesn't just bitrot)
 * falktx mailed the US-list about his pulse-jack script
#ubuntustudio-devel 2011-05-21
<Kokito> hello UbuntuStudio folks
<holstein> Kokito: hey
<Kokito> how is it going holstein ?
<holstein> not bad, working on a few blogs
<holstein> http://ashevilleoriginalmusicseries.blogspot.com/ for example 
<Kokito> interesting
 * holstein still working on content
<ScottL> hi Kokito 
<ScottL> sorry i disappeared the other day
<Kokito> hey ScottL 
<Kokito> that's OK :)
<ScottL> my computer does these weird locks
<Kokito> I also disappear quite frequently :)
<ScottL> i can move the mouse but i can't change windows, pick anything, or switch desktops
<ScottL> i can't even shut down properly, i end up holding the power down till it shuts down :(
<ScottL> Kokito, how is the website going?
<ScottL> at some point i really need to give some serious thought to how/where information is going to be
<Kokito> Have not had time/motivation to work on it lately; but I am sticking to the 6/16 deadline documented in the wiki :)
<holstein> ScottL: tty?
<holstein> you really *will* do something to the hard drive like that :/
<Kokito> ScottL: discussing/brainstorming what to put where can be done now; in fact, it has to happen now, as how the website evolves will depend on what needs to be supported.
<Kokito> ScottL: there are a number of questions poised in https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/Oneiric/Timeline#Update the website with regards to potential features that can be supported; there has been no discussion/decision on whether we want to implement each of them or not on the new website
<Kokito> ok, time for my evening coffee
<Kokito> going out for a while. will be back later
<Kokito> re
<Kokito> my Chrome netbook keeps loosing its wifi signal :(
<ScottL> i would be curious to see who fully understand's ralf's email to the -dev mailing list, i am afraid many of the topics are beyond my current understanding
<ScottL> i think ailo_ probably has the best chance of explaining it to me ;)
<astraljava> ScottL: Which emails are you specifically referring to? Granted, I haven't read every piece with thought, but nothing strikes as particularly odd.
<ScottL> astraljava, https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-studio-devel/2011-May/003249.html
 * holstein 
<holstein> i should appologize for that
<holstein> i talked him into it
<holstein> i just wasnt 100% clear with him
<holstein> i didnt mean to join the -dev list and rattle off request
<holstein> i was hoping he would ask about CPU scalling being added to ubuntustudio controls
<holstein> which is actually a great ida
<holstein> idea*
<rexbron> Speaking of Ubuntustudio-controls, how is that going?
<holstein> i want to say ailo_ and paultag are colaborating on that?
<ailo_> Ralph seems to talk more about his own specific issues I think, but I was interested in the cpu crequency scaling part
<ailo_> I will code a simple usable controls that should be packaged and ready during June
<ailo_> But, there are all kinds of ideas for improving the -controls
<ailo_> rexbron, The current -controls would need to be updated. You're the original author, right?
<ailo_> rexbron, Just a few changes for Lucid, and Maverick
<rexbron> ailo_: you can blame it one me ;)
<ScottL> holstein, i'm glad we have his input...seriously
<ScottL> too often things get brought out by just one person
<ailo_> I'm not sure, if it started with Karmic or Lucid, but US-controls should not edit /etc/security/limits.conf anymore, since jackd creates /etc/security/limits.d/audio.conf
<ScottL> hi rexbron 
<holstein> ScottL: ralph has C experience
<rexbron> hey ScottL
<ScottL> and ralf says he's not a coder :P
<holstein> it would be great if he transitioned from whiny list guy, to contributor
<rexbron> lol neither was I when I wrote -controls
<holstein> *im glad to have his input too 
<ailo_> rexbron, My idea is to have a UbuntuStudio-controls that exists in the system-tray or indicator-tray, and at least let's you administer realtime prio for users
<holstein> rexbron: w0w, i didnt realize that was yours... cool :)
<rexbron> ailo_: I think that is a good idea
<ailo_> rexbron, Since Natty, we don't need to mess with firewire
<rexbron> holstein: the one any only piece of fuctional code I've ever distributed
<rexbron> ailo_: that's a plus
<ailo_> rexbron, It would be great to include some other stuff, like pulse-jack bridge as an option
<rexbron> I've been out of the loop for a while and am running stock ubuntu
<holstein> ailo_: i think thats the only way we can
 * rexbron looks at the redesign page
<holstein> i dont think it will ever trickly into the main repos
<holstein> pulse-jack*
<rexbron> pulse-jack being a seperate package?
<holstein> trickle*
<rexbron> or is that getting pulse compiled with jack support
<holstein> rexbron: falk made it for KXstudio
<ailo_> I still don't know what pulse-jack is. Isn't it just a script? flaktx has a solution to that anyhow
<persia> holstein, Is this different than the pulseaudio-module-jack we have?
<ailo_> falktx*
<holstein> persia: AFAIK, its very different
<holstein> theres a thread on the list that ScottL has been involved with
<holstein> i think thats about what we have by default apparently that i wasnt aware of
<holstein> OR i dont know how to use
<holstein> either are likely ;)
<persia> We don't have pulseaudio-module-jack by default.
<holstein> persia: we = ubuntu?
<holstein> like, its not in the repos at all?
<persia> And it doesn't have any special interface: if it's set up, pulse tries to register to jack on startup (which doesn't always work as expected, as JACK is often not running at that point)
<astraljava> ScottL: Oh I see, I missed that one. Whee! :D
<persia> It's in the repos, just not installed by default by any of the flavours (including Ubuntu Studio)
<holstein> persia: maybe falk brings that in and uses it*
<persia> That would make sense to me.  If it was "very different", I'd worry about duplication of effort, etc.
<ScottL> ailo_, i'm having trouble getting pulseaudio-module-jack to work as david h. has suggested on the mailing list
<holstein> ScottL: im hoping to catch up with that thread
<holstein> he made is sound simple
<holstein> i personally didnt get it going til falks package, not that i tried terribly hard
<rexbron> Is there a page for the ubuntustudio-controls redeisgn?
<ScottL> holstein, aye, that he did....just didn't work for me yet
<ailo_> rexbron, Are you interested in coding us-controls? I'm supposed to start soon, but I'm guessing you have a lot more experience in coding
<ailo_> ScottL, holstein Seems to me falktx is the man to talk to about that
<rexbron> ailo_: lol, I'd be intersted in helping. As for coding skills, they are pretty pathetic
 * rexbron 's BFA counts for something though
<ScottL> ailo_, but he keeps doing stuff that we simply are not going to get into the repos
<ScottL> ailo_, i don't think solutions proposed by falktx are going to work for us
<rexbron> What is the status about per-package uploading/ seeding domains? persia?
<ScottL> i certainly wished it was otherwise
<ailo_> ScottL, I think it would be good to pick out the things we can easily handle at least, and see if we can put them in
<ScottL> rexbron, there is an older page about -controls update, would you like me to find it?
<persia> rexbron, All the infrastructure is in place: it needs a request from the flavour (best if from the leader), and then individuals become eligible to apply.
<rexbron> ScottL: sure, I think we need to look at what exactly still is needed to be done with -controls
<ailo_> rexbron: What we absolutely need is probably only administering realtime privilege for users. 
<ScottL> rexbron, there are several to choose from :P   https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/ControlsRedesign?highlight=%28ubuntustudio\-controls%29
<ScottL> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/ReleasePlanning#Ubuntu%20Studio%20Controls
<ailo_> rexbron, paultag had the idea to make us-controls pluginable. This is something I've thought about too.
<persia> ailo_, That should be rtkit.  I thought that the main outstanding bit was memlock control.
<rexbron> ailo_: plugin able? How so?
<ScottL> paultag had one but i can't find the webpage
<ailo_> rexbron, The main application in a system-tray menu would be a system settings application
<ScottL> rexbron, i have hoping to have ubuntustudio-dev set up soon as a delegated team within a couple of months for upload rights
<ailo_> rexbron, If someone wants to add features for the controls, just add an application that will end up in the menu. That's my idea. Don't know if it will happen though
<rexbron> ailo_: simplier to just modify the source of controls
<ailo_> persia, As far as I understand, rtkit will not be the way we get realtime privilege to jack
<ailo_> rexbron, I've already made a new app. Just missing some python specific code.
<rexbron> ailo_: link me to the branch?
<persia> ailo_, Is that because someone actively is opposed, or just because it wasn't done?  I thought the main reason it wasn't done yet was that it wasn't enough without a memlock solution.
<ailo_> rexbron, I don't have the code up right now. I can upload it to gitorious..
<rexbron> ailo_: I don't know if this has been decided project wide but using bzr makes things integrate a lot better
<ailo_> persia, I've only been talking with las. I have no idea who is working on that on the Debian/Ubuntu side
<rexbron> ailo_: also, there is already a -controls project on launchpad
<persia> ailo_, Was there some decision from las that rtkit should not be used, or only the prior notes about it not solving the problems, so not worth doing?
<ailo_> persia, I asked him if the way we access realtime privilege will change, for example using rtkit. He said no. He also doesn't think adjusting memlock is needed. He thinks memlock unlimited is fine. 
<persia> memlock unlimited *is* a change.
<persia> That's why the configuration file is needed.
<persia> If we had a way to do per-application memlock, it would make sense for JACK to request it.
<ailo_> persia, I would like to find out if adjusting memlock has any positive effects, though. Some say they will have system lockups with memlock unlimited
<persia> and if that was happening, switching to rtkit at the same time makes sense.
<persia> Yes.
<persia> That's why ideally memlock should only be unlimited for jackd.
<persia> But that requires writing memkit, or some similar thing.
<rexbron> ailo_: hit me up when you have the link, I'm curious to see what you've done :)
<persia> (which I believe nobody has done)
<persia> But now is a better time for ubuntustudio-controls: we're not going to fix the memlock-is-only-configurable-by-user/group issue within Ubuntu Studio.
<ailo_> rexbron, Ok :P. It uses scripts to execute the commands, and I was not thinking of using it as a base - more as inspiration for a UbuntuStudio Controls system settings application.
<rexbron> ailo_: Scripts are fine, just import them into the app indicator
<rexbron> ailo_: I'm waiting ;)
<ailo_> Working on it
<ailo_> Just had to check it works first
<ailo_> rexbron, git clone git://gitorious.org/old-uscontrols/old-uscontrols.git 
<ailo_> rexbron, If you want to see it in action, add the files ending with *.sh to /usr/lib/ubuntustudio-controls
<ailo_> To get the memlock value updated at each boot, I think it would be good to have a script that does that in /etc/init*. Just add a percentage value in /etc/ubuntustudio-controls and have the file /etc/security.limits.d/audio.conf be updated if needed. I'm thinking of the possibility that someone adds or removes memory from their system.
<rexbron> ailo_: that strikes me as a rather rare occurance
<rexbron> some general comments
<rexbron> having seperate bash script files is less idea I think
<rexbron> I guess what I don
<ailo_> rexbron, This application was a hack, so only to be regarded as a design idea, nothing more
<rexbron> I guess what I don't have is a grasp of what exactly needs to be done
<rexbron> people still wish to set memlock
<ailo_> rexbron, For me, I think administering realtime privilege is the firstmost important feature. The other to adjust memlock. Then, there are further ideas that can be explored and added. That is from what base I was intending to work from in the coming weeks. First code a simple but well functioning app, then add features if wanted or needed
<rexbron> ailo_: may I suggest a different design?
<ailo_> rexbron, Sure
<rexbron> if you go the appindicator route, I feel that it would be more accessable to users and more clearly focused in it's intent
<rexbron> rather than a full fledged application
<ailo_> rexbron, That's the way I want to go. Make an app indicator. I also have been working on a system check script in usermode that checks if user has realtime privilege and if user is running a lowlatency kernel
<ailo_> I mean, make an indicator menu, with an item called "system-settings" where you can adjust some things
<ailo_> Back to the system-check script: If user does not have the goodies for realtime audio, it announces that. 
<rexbron> ailo_: shouldn't they have those by default after installation?
<ailo_> rexbron, Not if they use Ubuntu Vanilla as base
<rexbron> ailo_: I wouldn't consider those supported users
<ScottL> ailo_, rexbron , i wouldn't mind if -controls even expanded to help with turning pulse off/turn jack on, transport for jack, connections for jack, and/or even install new applications based on work flows
<ScottL> but this is "pie in the sky" stuff, not just mundane
<rexbron> ScottL: there are simpler, existing solutions for all of those imo
<rexbron> ScottL: at least with my vanilla ubuntu 11.04, pulse shuts off when jack is started
<rexbron> then restarts when it's closed
<rexbron> Is that not the case in studio?
<ailo_> I believe, since US is in the main repo, it should be directed to all Ubuntu users, not just Ubuntu Studio users. It's not a big stretch to let non technical users adjust their system for realtime audio by allowing us-controls to handle that. 
<rexbron> I would argue that if they choose to go that route, then they are responsible for configuring their system but that's me
 * rexbron dislikes handholding
<persia> I'm also not in favour of handholding, but I don't believe we can safely rely on installer behaviour to dictate system behaviour, especially as the number of methods of installation keeps growing.
<rexbron> fair enough
<rexbron> but where exactly do we draw the line?
<rexbron> I guess I don't see do it once actions as being something to include in controls
<ailo_> I don't like the idea of having all-in-one applications
<rexbron> for things like that, perhaps a gnome-system-controls item could be used
<rexbron> but that won't be included in xfce
<ailo_> if us-controls would be pluginable, you could add apps like qjackctl to the menu
<persia> I don't think we want to stuff everything into ubuntustudio-controls.
<rexbron> but why?
<rexbron> why would you want or need qjackctl in that meny
<rexbron> menu rather
<persia> If you want qjackctl to be more tightly integrated, there are useful alternate tools to manage that.
 * rexbron mentions lash
<persia> Well, lash is deprecated these days in favour of ladish.
<persia> But I was thinking of some of Hans Baier's work.
<persia> e.g. jackpanel
<ailo_> Another idea is having a multimedia app-manager, that has a different database of info, than the standard one
<persia> http://www.hansfbaier.de/wordpress/jackpanel/
<persia> (this isn't in the repos mostly because not enough people reviewed/advocated Hans' work, not because it isn't any good: Hans was even on this channel for a while)
<ailo_> One thing that I liked about KXStudio was the list of applications that showed what they supported - ladspa, vst, etc
<ailo_> That sort of oversight is often missing
<ScottL> rexbron, re: pulse shuts off when jack is started...yes, that is currently the case, qjackctl.dekstop runs pasuspender first
<ailo_> I believe jackd2 disables pa too, but not jackd1
<ailo_> If run from a terminal
<persia> That's a bug, or rather a leftover workaround from a bug.
<persia> JACK should suspect pulse if pulse is using the sound card JACK is using, and ignore it otherwise.
<persia> For extra points, if pulseaudio-module-jack is available, and JACK wants to use the sound card pulse is using, it should reconnect pulse as jack
 * persia gets tired of shaking and hides in a doorway
<ScottL> persia, i'm trying to work with david h. and get this resolved, but i'm not sure it works like everybody thinks it does
<persia> Right.
<persia> It doesn't :)
 * ScottL thinks of princess bride "i don't not think that means what you think it means"
<persia> Continuing, reconnect pulse as JACK IO points, in case the user wants to do something, and to not annoy other sound-generating applications.
<ScottL> persia, weird, are you prescient?  because you answer that statement almost immediately after i hit enter :P
<persia> I live 15 or 16 hours in the future, so it's not quite as fast as you think it is :)
<ScottL> oh, well that explains it and i feel much better now , prescient...pttthh!  you live in the future, now that i can believe :P
<ScottL> ailo_,  how do you find kxstudio listing supported applications helpful?
<persia> So, I've reviewed the relevant thread.
<persia> There's a few things that are messy.
<ailo_> ScottL, Just seeing what sequencer works with what plugins and instruments make life a lot easier.
<persia> 1) The volume controls most folk use don't necessarily have a good view into JACK.
<ScottL> ailo_, ahhh, i can wrap my head around that...yes, i think that would be helpful
<persia> 2) Just creating inputs/outputs in JACK doesn't always do what the user expects
<persia> 3) We don't install integration by default
<persia> 4) Our helper tools don't invoke integration with the typical configuration.
<persia> 5) I've yet to see anything written on the issue that provides a generic solution for both the single-audio-interface and the multiple-audio-interface model.
<persia> ailo_, I actually don't much like the idea of giving the users a big list of applications and telling them which bits work with which other bits: I'd rather try to pick a set of functionality to support, select apps to support that functionality, and make sure they can all use the same sorts of formats.
<persia> Yes, this means we don't get all possible functionality, but it also makes it much more accessible to just get things done.
<ScottL> persia, to which thread are you referring?
<persia> And this reduces the number of folk who get frustrated and just go write their own tool from scratch (e.g. jokosher)
<ailo_> persia, You mean select applications for a standard US install that supports the functions we want to use?
<persia> ScottL, Subject "PulseAudio and Ubuntu Studio 11.10" starting from ckontros writing "As it is so tightly woven into Ubuntu, I suspect it will. We are however looking to better integrate JACK with PA. (seems like we've been trying this forever)"
<persia> ailo_, Rather, the functions we intend to support as first-class use cases.  I'm not convinced that this will precisely match the functions any one of us wants to use.
<persia> The idea is to pick sensible defaults for the majority case, and then make everything in those defaults work together.
<persia> Those with more specialised needs can select from a wider software set, with the expectation that other things may not work together quite as well.
<persia> We can't fix all of Linux Audio (nor do I think this is a good idea: attempting to do so would stifle innovation), but we probably can help make sure a few applications to achieve some goal work together well, achieve common workflows, and are well documented.
<persia> (mind you, these are my ideas: I don't expect everyone to agree :) )
<ScottL> my largest desire is to clean up the mess between jack and pulse....i think that will alleviate many headaches
<ailo_> persia, I agree with you. I would rather have a small set of applications in a standard US install, that we know will work for the most common use cases, than have a full variety.
<persia> ailo_, Heh, OK.  Sorry to jump on you: I just worry that we'll end up solving the problems that users complain about and miss solving the problems that cause few people to bother being users.
<ScottL> i don't expect this, but i would like it for canonical to hire someone just to sort this out
<ScottL> s/like it for/appreciate if
<ScottL> as an aside, i started getting my nanokontrol set up :)
<persia> ScottL, I think that if we patch qjackctl, and have it recommend pulseaudio-module-jack, and add an autoconnect script to pulseaudio-module-jack, and use jackdbus by default, we have a chance: in my mind the unsolved piece is that I don't believe the current setup works well for folks with multiple audio interfaces (like yourself).
<persia> If waiting for Canonical to do things was how we did things, there would never have been an Ubuntu Studio.
<ScottL> heh, very true persia 
<ailo_> To inform users what they can use and how to use it, documentation/info is the first and most important way to do that, but if a multimedia app-manager would make things even easier, I wouldn't mind using that.
<persia> As much as I appreciate all the contributions Canonical makes to Ubuntu, I feel very strongly that we can't rely on them to make sure our goals are met (meaning each of our individual goals, not just Ubuntu Studio goals)
<persia> ailo_, It might, but my fear is that we'd be deluged with requests to add information about new/different application mixes, and it would become a support nightmare.  I could be wrong (and I typically don't do support)
<ScottL> well, if canonical would hire me for ubuntu studio, maybe i _could_ make them all happen :P
<persia> Do you think that Canonical would be markedly better at gaining money from your work on Ubuntu Studio than you could be yourself?
<ailo_> persia, It would need to be a separate application no doubt. But, it would make sense having it a part of controls, if it were available in Debian repo for instance. Just entertaining the idea so far. 
<ScottL> persia, no i do not think so
<persia> ailo_, I suppose.  I think it's a mountain or work, but we all need to do the things that we want to do, so if you think it's important, go ahead :)
<persia> ScottL, In that case, I'll say you'd get paid better to work on Ubuntu Studio if you did it yourself.
 * persia tries to come up with three business models for Ubuntu Studio developers
<ailo_> persia, I'm only concerned with the design of us-controls and what it could be used for in a longer perspective while making it very simple at first
<persia> 1) Provide installation/training/support services to "basement" studios in your city.
<persia> 2) Run a "basement" studio
<persia> 3) Use Ubuntu Studio and "found sounds" to generate soundfonts for use by foley artists
<persia> ailo_, Personally, I think that the long-term goal should be to not have ubuntustudio-controls.
<ailo_> persia, That would work too
<persia> For packages we aren't sharing with other flavours, we should just patch them to do the right thing (sometimes this is hard, like JACK and memlock)
<persia> For packages we are sharing with other flavours, we should try to find common default configurations: if this is impossible, we should extend the package to allow drop-in default snippets (for examples, look at how gconf-defaults works, or gdm)
<persia> And in certain special cases where we can't come to agreement, we should fork (examples are the variety of linux-* packages in the archive, or having both "mutter" and "metacity")
 * saidinesh5 really wanted something like GetHotNewStuff for Soundfonts ....... download and share all the freesound fonts
<persia> saidinesh5, Last I knew, there were about 3 free soundfonts.  The tools need a bit of work, and the soundfont community needs a fair bit of cultural adjustment to generate free artifacts.
<saidinesh5> persia: over the last few years i ve collected a lot of nice and free soundfonts in the public domain
<persia> Unfortunately, "the public domain" is meaningless in most countries.
<saidinesh5> as in?
<persia> Which then causes such soundfonts to revert to regular copyright models, which makes it a crime to distribute them.
<saidinesh5> ohh
<persia> I believe that the UK is the only EU member that recognises "public domain", just to pick a few examples.
<saidinesh5> but the creators themselves say "do whatever you want"
<persia> They need to do that in a way that is binding.
<persia> Creative Commons has some good licenses.
<saidinesh5> oh
<ScottL> persia, for business models, troy_s had a good one of getting ubuntu studio into educational institutions and then charging for support
<saidinesh5> well ScottL are we really ready for that ??
<persia> saidinesh5, Don't get me wrong: I'm *really* happy with the growth in the zero-cost soundfont community: there are some tools bugs, but lots of the rest can be solved with education.
<persia> ScottL, I know several people who do educational support to fund their work in Ubuntu: apparently it's highly personally satisfying, although dealing with the School Boards to get in can be annoying.
<ScottL> saidinesh5, it the person knows the ins-and-outs of ubuntu studio and can do after installation setup :)
<saidinesh5> persia: and especially with musicians have 0 tolerance for any fuss
<persia> saidinesh5, Depends on the musician, but often, yeah, one doesn't bother learning about contracts until one has an agent who does that for one.
<saidinesh5> i tried to get my friends try things out and installation itself is the end of the story
<ckontros> I'm not gonna chime in on the technical stuff on the list (as I here for 1 thing really) but VST support from packages in the official repos won't happen.
<saidinesh5> but there are a lot of free VSTs which work natively.. arent they?
<persia> Well, at least not before 13.10
<persia> saidinesh5, Steinberg would have to extend a license to someone to be able to ship a working host.  There's debate in the area, but most folk try to avoid violating known patents.
<ckontros> saidinesh5: IIRC simply having VST support means having packages like Ardour with support for ALL VSTs. Unless something has changes lately.
<saidinesh5> no but the free implementation of VST standard?
<ckontros> *changed
 * ckontros will let persia handle this.
<persia> ckontros, Well, there was VST 3.5 in February: I'm not sure that any of the hosts we have support 3.5 yet.
<saidinesh5> a good support for VST 2.x itself is a big deal though
<saidinesh5> ardour 3 does midi too right?
<ckontros> persia: Has the implementation been "freed" in some way? A new free version of VST?
<persia> saidinesh5, My understanding is that there are some implementations that attempt to support some versions of VST, for which there is free code, a couple issues occur:
 * saidinesh5 has really lost touch with the multimedia apps in foss world for the last 2 years ....... hoping to get back to all of them now that he has graduated
<persia> 1) There are some patents (starting in 1996) on VST technologies, which would need to be licensed to sell a product (and Ubuntu Studio must be able to be sold).
<ckontros> saidinesh5: Are you Ralf? (from the list)
<saidinesh5> ckontros: nope... just got interested in ubuntu studio (once again) just a few days ago
<persia> 2) There are some dependencies in many VSTs that require them to be run in Windows, or in WINE.  Since WINE is virus-compatible with Windows, we probably want to think several times before installing it by default (note that we did install it by default last I looked).
<ckontros> saidinesh5: Ok. I was wondering.
<saidinesh5> persia: iirc there are some native linux vsts too
<saidinesh5> we can start with them ?
<persia> saidinesh5, Sure.  Just get a license from Steinberg to distribute a VST host under a license that allows those to whom you distribute it to to redistribute it.
<persia> then grant that license to your favorite open source VST host, and watch it become everyone's favorite within a month.
<ckontros> holstein: Mention to Ralf that saying things like "I can try to help a little bit, but I'm not a coder and I don't want to spend too much time with testing etc. any more." really isn't the best way motivate anyone to help work on things. ;)
<saidinesh5> persia: how about Vestige?
<saidinesh5> the way the lmms folks do it
#ubuntustudio-devel 2011-05-22
<saidinesh5> "VST has now changed to use the Vestige library so there is no longer any reliance on non-free code"
<ckontros> ScottL: PM me if needed.
 * saidinesh5 still needs a way to test drive US: with no free partitions to spare :-/
<saidinesh5> anybody?
<persia> You could use the testdrive program.
 * saidinesh5 googles
<persia> I suspect you'd need to be running some Ubuntu flavour for it to work :)
<saidinesh5> i am on kubuntu
<saidinesh5> oh you mean like apt-get ubuntu-studio-* ?
<persia> No, I mean `apt-get install testdrive`
<saidinesh5> ah that uses qemu or something?
<persia> File a bug if it doesn't, but it should download an arbitrary image from cdimage.ubuntu.com, and launch that in a virtual machine so you can test it.
<persia> By default it tries KVM first: I suspect it falls back to virtualbox, and only then to qemu (but I'm not sure)
<saidinesh5> last time when i used virtual box
<saidinesh5> it was as laggy as hell
<saidinesh5> :-/
<persia> I can't seem to find good information about VeSTige: just reviews.
 * saidinesh5 checks his history
<persia> It may or may not be OK: I did encounter a discussion where people disagreed.
<persia> (something about whether the developers had access to the VST SDK while constructing VeSTige, or whether they were working from a sufficiently "obvious" basis: of course this isn't decideable except by a court, but if there is consensus, nobody will go to court, so the consensus must be right)
<saidinesh5> oh
<saidinesh5> ya most programs come with 
<saidinesh5> a " donot reverse engineer " agreement
<persia> Right.  If someone violates that, then the material they release is tainted, so other folk can't safely use it.
<saidinesh5> yaa
<persia> Sorting VST is annoying and painful.  The first VST patents will expire in 2013, and so someone can go read them, and then write code based on them, and ship it.
<saidinesh5> wow
<saidinesh5> thats still hope ful :)
<saidinesh5> the problem is its a widely used standard
<saidinesh5> i was hoping android would change the situation at least a little bit
<persia> But before that, it requires agreement with Steinberg, or some other way around the issues.  Note also that as the specification keeps being updated, getting full support won't happen until either the *last* patent expires (currently something like 2028), or someone has an agreement with Steinberg.
<saidinesh5> (actually meego but wth!)
<persia> That makes no difference.  Steinberg could release "Cubase for Ubuntu", and it wouldn't solve the problem.
<persia> (well, people could run VSTs in "Cubase for Ubuntu", but we'd still have issues running them in Ardour without hackery)
<saidinesh5> but it would solve a lot of other problems
<saidinesh5> like no more wine for a lot of VSTs
<saidinesh5> and basically its almost like the case with GIMP and others vs. Adobe
<persia> No, it wouldn't help with the Windows Dependency at all: that's a different issue.  "Cubase for Ubuntu" would probably recommend installing WINE so that one could run VSTs that weren't linux-native.
<saidinesh5> WINE is too laggy for VSTs
<saidinesh5> the little ones *might* run ...
<saidinesh5>  but the good ones definitely won
<saidinesh5> *wont
<saidinesh5> persia: i ll soon be buying a keyboard too... so do we have any good hardware database saying this works and this doesnt??
<ailo_> saidinesh5, usb keyboard?
<saidinesh5> well at least the midi interfacing 
<saidinesh5> should be done via. USB
<ailo_> saidinesh5, I know that any standard compliant keyboard will work, which I believe are most keyboards out there. But, when it comes to performance, I don't have any good knowledge about that
<persia> Any "Class-complaint" USB keyboard works.  Anything else is going to cause trouble for *every* operating system.  The manufacturers are proud when they have "Class-complaint" devices, and advertise that.
<saidinesh5> Oh i see
<ailo_> ralph on the mail list could probably tell us some more about midi hardware and performance
<ailo_> At least on the performance bit
<saidinesh5> well i wouldn't want to buy something like my NVIDIA card for my laptop
<saidinesh5> bad bad drivers and stuff
<persia> There's not much difference in "performance" between the MIDI Master keyboards: choose one by how it feels.
<saidinesh5> oh... i see
<ailo_> persia, I'm just thinking about midi jitter, pci vs usb
<ailo_> I really don't have any experience myself in time accurate midi usage
<persia> ailo_, Makes no difference: most of those issues have to with MIDI controllers.  That said, MIDI is a *very* low bandwidth protocol: USB can more than handle it (even USB 1.1)
<saidinesh5> even bluetooth can handle MIDI
 * ScottL is catching up on backscroll
<saidinesh5> i m not going to need it for any live performances, so time accuracy shouldnt be a problem
<persia> 8 voices at 256bpm with automation on *every* note is something like 300 bytes/second.
<saidinesh5> hmm... ya
<persia> Anyway, selecting interfaces, keyboards, etc. is better discussed on #ubuntustudio
<saidinesh5> hmm...... k ....... as soon as will short list my keyboard will bring this up :)
<ScottL> saidinesh5, also you can talk to people on #opensourcemusicians, there are a lot of knowledgeable people there who are familiar with crazy, mad amounts of things
<saidinesh5> wow thanks ScottL for this channel!!
<saidinesh5>  i was always looking for one such one!
 * saidinesh5 hits the bed now: *THUD* ........ gNite/Day folks :)
<ScottL> persia, after reading through the literature about delegated teams and package set, i don't see any immediate obstacle in asking for the ubuntustudio-dev team to be approved
<ScottL> do you?
<ScottL> i realize we need to make a wiki page still
<ScottL> i get that _would_ be an immediate obstacle
<ScottL> s/get/guess
<ScottL> although i suppose it's not really an obstacle as much as it is a task
<Kokito> good evening folks
<ScottL> hi kok
<ScottL> Kokito, 
<Kokito> hey ScottL :)
<persia> ScottL, I know of no obstacles.  We have a package set, based on the seed (because the release team needed it to track freeze exceptions).
<persia> I don't believe we have sufficient activity and organisation to request to be a delegated team, but I do think we ought have a development team.
<persia> (if the distinction isn't clear, let me know, and I'll try to clean up the docs again)
<persia> Once we have a development team, there are a few folks who we should push to be part of that team, to smooth operations :)
<ScottL> persia, i will reread the documentation because i am unclear
<persia> ScottL, OK, but I suspect the chances that I wrote it confusingly are higher than the chances that you're incapable of understanding it.
<ScottL> persia, i am still unclear, is there another link i can read?
<ScottL> i am also working with david h. to get pulse audio and jack to working nicely together and it *just doesn't seem to want to*
<ScottL> i'm a little concerned because i'm beginning to worry that either david isn't as knowledgeable as i thought or ubuntu studio's setup is drastically different than ubuntu
<persia> ScottL, OK.  For packagesets/development teams: what isn't clear?  What questions do you have?
<persia> For pulse/JACK, I expect your largest issue is that you have multiple cards, although I may be mistaken.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2012-05-14
<len-dt> Using polkit is almost too easy...
<len-dt> With regard to changing runlevel as a user. I was able to to set up telinit to run from user space... so I can use runlevels to control what performance level I am running at.
<len-dt> This is probably not a good idea as telinit has more function than just changing runlevel.
<len-dt> However, it would be easy to write an application who's only job is to take user input and allow only three or four actions... changing runlevels to one of rl2-rl5.
<len-dt> And throw away anything else... even a bash script could do that.
<ailo> len-dt: I read your post on the mail list before, but haven't had the time to devote to US today. Did you read about Ulatencyd on another post?
<len-dt> I have. It is hard to know what is useful for audio. What would be really helpful would be test cases.
<len-dt> Both test cases that have lots of stress and those that are more "realistic".
<len-dt> That would help us to find out is any of these things are really helping or needed.
<scott-work> good morning everyone
<len-dt> scott-work, been a while since I've seen that name here ;-)
<knome> yeah, but he's not really on :<
<len-dt> knome, he probably has lots of catch up to do.
<scott-work> sorry, i'm back again
<scott-work> i really would like to talk about blueprints this week and get them resolved and to kate (release manager) by the end of the week
<scott-work> len-dt: would you like to head up an "OTB improvements" blueprint?
<scott-work> i shoudl be posting to the mailnig list with a list of things i think we need to get done along with some others might might consider
<scott-work> of course, i want people's suggestions and input as well
<ailo> scott-work: Me and Len have been putting some work on system tuning. Mostly len, so far. And we've set up pages on the wiki for documenting both what we have now, what is possible, and lastly, what we would like to have
<ailo> I think we should also go more deeply with package selection. Making more detailed analysis of work flows
<ailo> Probably not a lot missing, but it would be good to document that throuroughly as well
<ailo> scott-work: The wiki pages are still mostly empty. The three last items on this page https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/TeamResources
<scott-work> ailo: that's good to hear and i agree about package selection as well
<scott-work> ailo: shnatsel had some interesting ideas as well
<ailo> scott-work: I think len-dt and me will go ahead and explore those things, and hopefully that will result in some good analysis of what might or might not be useful for tuning the system for better performance
<scott-work> that would be out-f'ing-standing :)
<ailo> I think we'll probably need a -controls application in the end. Would you agree len-dt?
<scott-work> ailo: i was going to suggest that as well
<scott-work> i've not been a fan of the -controls idea for a while, but it has mainly because no one seemed to be able to clearly define its purpose anymore
<scott-work> but it sounds like we are clearly defining some purposes now
<ailo> As len-dt suggested in hit post, I think, many things can not be done in userland. You set it, and reboot, or at least restart your session. Also, you'll want to be able to toggle things separately, since some settings only apply to some machines. A -controls application could also inform the user how each setting can help them. 
<ailo> Well, time to do some laps in the park :P
<ailo> len-dt: I think the first thing I want to do is to finish working on kernel related docs and set up kernel builds for testing on my PPA. Get back to you when I have something up for testin/reading
<scott-work> it looks like the kernel time will most likely assume responsiblity of the -lowlatency kernel if they can collapse some of the other kernels they are supported
<scott-work> well, some are going to be collapsed (i.e. combined) and others are going to be dropped
<ailo> It's probably not going to make much of an impact for anyones performance, I don't think, tweaking a few kernel options, but who knows. And I just want to learn all about it to be sure
<ailo> scott-work: I think that's great. I do hope we can have some serious input into what configs the kernel should have though
<scott-work> ailo: i would hope so...and i think we have time for that as well still
<scott-work> they need to get he blueprints done this week as well, then go through the work of minimizing their supported kernels before they address ours
<ailo> scott-work: Let's have a meeting before then?
<scott-work> absolutely!
<scott-work> i was hoping this weekend actually so we can finalize the blueprints and some other ideas/tasks
 * micahg waves to scott-work
<scott-work> ailo: len-dt:  i don't know if you know about my blog, it has several noted items from UDS including things related to studio
<ailo> scott-work: Haven't read it for a while. What was the link again? ;P
<scott-work> micahg: hi!  i reversed my position, after we work through bluepritns i want to help with syncing and FTBFS as soon as possible to get the exposure
 * scott-work is sorry for being wishy-washy and this subject micahg, but has his mind made up very firmly now
<scott-work> ailo: http://dullass.blogspot.com/
<scott-work> s/and this subject/on this subject
<scott-work> heh, micahg left already :/
<knome> hah:)
<knome> you want to fail to build from source?
<scott-work> knome: i want to learn
<scott-work> ;)
<knome> ;)
<scott-work> ailo and len-dt :  feel free to leave comments in the blog, don't be shy :P
<knome> scott-work, so, where's the blog articles for days 3-5 ?
<scott-work> i'm still working on them :P  i'm ADHD and sometimes have trouble keeping my attention on certain things
<scott-work> i have notes from all of it and i will be finishing them up in the next two days
<ailo> scott-work: You only have one letter combination? I have all of them
<knome> scott-work, diagnosed ADHD, or non-literallt ADHD?
<knome> *non-literally
<scott-work> knome: literally, i have been diagnosed and i am taking adderall
<scott-work> i still get a little flaky by getting distracted and hyper at times (i'm kinda feeling that now)
<knome> scott-work, okay, good to know :)
<scott-work> but i can sustain much better concentration in the short term though
<scott-work> before i HAD to also follow all the conversatiosn that others are having around me as well as my own conversation
<knome> well i do that too...
<scott-work> micahg: i see you are back in channel
<micahg> well, about to go off for a few hours :)
<astraljava> scott-work: You? Hyper?!
<scott-work> hehe, sometimes very badly
<scott-work> astraljava: sometimes is because very, very obvious because i can talk really, really fast at times and it might seem that i don't breath between paragraph-like sentences
<astraljava> I will have to travel to Texas to witness that. :D
<scott-work> we'd be glad to have you stay at the house if you did
<astraljava> We have a few employees in the States, so I may take you up on that offer. :D
<scott-work> that would be super cool :)
<astraljava> Indeed it would. I haven't been further into your continent than... Atlanta. :)
<astraljava> One of them lives and works in Colorado. That's at least where I'd wanna go. It's not TOO far to hop over to your place from there. :)
<astraljava> Fortunately our company is very pro-travelling.
<len-dt> ailo, controls or setup or config or whatever. Ya. any performance mode thing needs a config app so that the user can make it work for their particular use. Things like wireless or not. Mysql or not... are things atht come to mind.
<astraljava> Not even just wireless, but networking overall.
<len-dt> scott-work, ailo while a lot of things are out of userland, polkit is easy to use to get around that. The easiest and most secure method would be to use runlevels. That way up to 4 different setups can be defined. I have been able to make strong changes without either booting or relogging in.
<len-dt> astraljava, exactly. 
<astraljava> I was reminded again at work today how vulnerable even modern unices are to networking problems.
<astraljava> UI freezes totally, even on supposedly well-working multitasking OS.
<astraljava> ...on a dual-core machine.
<knome> ..with memory built from stardust?
<len-dt> astraljava, the thing with networking is things like qmidinet and qmidicontrol (I think I got it right) and for that matter lyricue (which also uses mysql :-P
<astraljava> knome: Have you been inhaling something you shouldn't, again?
<astraljava> len-dt: gah!
<astraljava> But okay, I get the point.
<knome> not admitting anything.
<len-dt> astraljava, breathing you mean like city air?
<astraljava> Well, he lives considerably closer to downtown than I do.
<knome> though you have that dust coming in all the time
<knome> i live considerable closer to a (small) forest too
<knome> s/e/y
<len-dt> Where we used to live downtown had the cleaner air and the wind used to blow the crap up the valley to the farmland.
<astraljava> Yeah I guess that's true. There are many more buses going just underneath my balcony than anywhere near his apartment.
<knome> so it's probably just too clean air i'm breathing... or the methane :|
<astraljava> Right, that's it.
<astraljava> No wonder you married your wife, it's because of her profession. :D
<knome> ;]
<len-dt> astraljava, it is unlikey that someone would use lyricue along with audio applications, but quite possible that a musician would have lyricue and audio apps on the same machine. lyricue being a video app that displays video and lyrics.
<knome> yeah, good to have backup if i faint of my own smell
<astraljava> len-dt: Right, I can understand that.
<astraljava> But then there are all those other runlevels.
<astraljava> Like you said already.
<len-dt> Yup, mysql seems to be runlevel friendly, NetMan is not. But it does handle being shutoff ok.
<len-dt> And NM could be shut off (and turned on) by a runlevel friendly upstart script.
<len-dt> astraljava, I would like to do as much as I can that is upstart friendly (or driven) as that seems to be the future of things. Any of the upstart *.conf can have a *.override file that takes it's place without deleting the original... very handy. Also the override file does nothing if there is no conf file to match... also handy as it means if we (or the user) tries to shut off something not installed there is no problem.
<astraljava> len-dt: Sounds good indeed.
<scott-work> i wonder how regular ubuntu devs would view us considering runlevels
<len-dt> scott-work, should be ok. I think RL2 should be the same as vanilla ubuntu and there should always be a path back to that.
<scott-work> len-dt: that's good to know. i now very little about runleves so i worry about such things
<scott-work> len-dt: do you think you would be up to leading a blueprint for OTB performance improvements?
<len-dt> scott-work, right now rl 3,4 and 5 are the same as rl2. That is not used.
<len-dt> scott-work, OTB?
<scott-work> out of the box
<scott-work> or Out of The Box :P
<len-dt> scott-work, I can try. You mean how the setup is at install or live DVD?
<scott-work> well, kinda
<scott-work> there isn't too much pressure to it, to be honest
<scott-work> do you know much about blueprints?
<scott-work> len-dt: ^^^
<len-dt> scott-work, I get the idea of what they are for... but not much on the formal language of them.
<scott-work> formal language is minor aspect, don't worry about that
<scott-work> so, to show our intended work for the cycle we make blueprints and the work items within the blueprints
<scott-work> this one might have only a few generalized work items like "explore possible ways to improve OOTB experience" and "implement what we can"
<len-dt> So I can come up with a doc, which you will vet and post?
<scott-work> or might be more details about which options we might try and such
<scott-work> yeah, i would then vet it then it needs to go up the chain to the release manager who would approve it and make it part of our formal "ubuntu studio for q cycle blueprint", which acts like a header blueprint
<scott-work> you don't get in trouble if not everything is completed or if things don't work out and there is nothing we can do to improve the OOTB experience
<scott-work> but i can't keep up with every blueprint and make sure progress is going on, especially when i'm not very familiar with some of the things you are talking about
<len-dt> scott-work, ok. There are two streams of thought with this, one that with a modern system there is performance to spare anyway and the other which is we can do much better with tweaks.
<scott-work> len-dt: well, if we can reasonably and safely make tweaks and yield appreciable improvement, i say we do it
<scott-work> or at least consider it
<len-dt> scott-work, I know I can make magrinal machines better (like my netbook for example), but they are less noticable on a good machine.
<len-dt> s/magrinal/marginal/
<scott-work> len-dt: that might be a good work item - to verify which improvements yield good results on which machines
<scott-work> btw, https://help.launchpad.net/Blueprint for those who want to learn more about blueprints
<len-dt> scott-work, thanks.
<scott-work> so, we could say one work item is to brainstorm which tweaks might work
<scott-work> another to test them
<scott-work> another to make a decision which to explore for reals
<scott-work> another to implement one (or several)
<scott-work> anotehr to validate the improvements
<scott-work> (oh, i suppose one might be to make a baseline reading earlier)
<len-dt> Yes, scott-work I have already found a tweak on one of the linux audio/music pages that does not work as stated in ubuntu.
<scott-work> i think generally each work item is suppose to be a day or three of worth of work
<ailo> To get to the bottow with all of the system configs, we need much more time than that.
<len-dt> scott-work, right now I am trying to gather info on what tweaks others have tried and to see if they work for me.
<scott-work> ailo:  more time than...?
<ailo> For each work item
<scott-work> oh, right...i understand :)
<len-dt> It looks like I will need to at the very least get more memory just for testing.
<scott-work> the documentation will be the same ailo 
<scott-work> user documentation, developer documentation, testing docuementation, all that stuff
<ailo> len-dt: Remember that I have 5 machines or more, so we could just as well do a team effort on the testing. 
<scott-work> len-dt: we set the goals/work items for the blueprint, if you feel that we will only get through testing and making a suggestion for next cycle then that is okay
<scott-work> len-dt: we should just set a reasonable goal for Quantal (including some buffer probably) and try to get that done
<len-dt> scott-work, there are some things that have already been proven to work for some people, I would like to include those. I will be using some of them in my machine anyway.
<astraljava> I get your point, BUT IT'S THE RELEASE AFTER LTS!! :D
<scott-work> astraljava: LOL, yeah i know, many people want to go crazy!  but i don't want to scare len away :P
<scott-work> len-dt: that's fine, and keep in mind that i'll help you with developing the work items if you want
<len-dt> astraljava, while this may have been LTS, I think we are really part way into the vision of where we want to go at this time.
<astraljava> scott-work: You'll scare him away by putting on restraints. :D
<len-dt> astraljava, scott-work :-)
<astraljava> len-dt: No, you misunderstood me. I fully support you! :)
<astraljava> Let's rock! :D
<len-dt> astraljava, just laughing along with you
<astraljava> Good. :)
<scott-work> hehe, good point astraljava  :)
<scott-work> i took it the other way :P
<scott-work> len-dt: but seriously, the work items are really another minor issue, but it would be very helpful to have you (who understands these items more than i) driving this blueprint
<scott-work> or ailo could do it, or you both could
<scott-work> i just wanted someone else but me (who doesn't have time to learn all the stuff you already are working on) to drive the blueprint
<scott-work> i can still make the blueprint and with your help fill int he work items
<len-dt> scott-work, astraljava I am thinking that even though my workflow app is not very polished, I will use it to set up rl based performance modes. The gui is throw away (or not) but the mode switching is pretty basic. The config for it can be more of the same or use the US controls framework if someone feels more comfortable working with that.
<scott-work> oh, one reason i haven't been on much lately is not only because i was at UDS but also because my old laptop died
<len-dt> I will try to come up with an overall document in the next few days.
<scott-work> i am unsure what i am going to set up at the house
<scott-work> len-dt: don't stress about getting final form or even doing a blueprint at this point, we have until early next week to get it done
<len-dt> scott-work, netbooks are cheap... and do surprisingly well.
<scott-work> we can brainstorm about what things we want to explore and then start parsing into steps and then get that into the blueprint
<scott-work> there will also be other blueprints, like some of the documentation and live-dvd fixes/improvements
<len-dt> anyway, I am off for a bit... it's about 2:30 time to go get kids.
<scott-work> i am leaving for home as well
<ailo> I'm fine with len-dt doing the blueprints. I'm still on documenting kernel configs, and will probably continue with that and the wiki for the rest of the week. I will however think about what we could bring up at the next meeting, when we discuss the next cycle
<ailo> If we are to make good use of each others machines for testing, I believe documentation will be essential, so that would be the best place to start
<astraljava> I was just recently shown a link to some test automation, but haven't had a chance to check it out yet.
<ailo> astraljava: Standard type of testing? Give us a link if you find it
<ailo> I mean standard, like what you would do for regular Ubuntu, not multimedia
<astraljava> ailo: I'll look into it and see how it could be utilized.
<astraljava> But not now, I have to sleep.
<ailo> sweat sheep
<ailo> sweet*
<astraljava> No I don't do sheep, sweaty or not. That's jussi's territory.
<ailo> Have a good restful night of sleep then
<knome> nighty astraljava 
<len-dt> Who is good to talk to about security matters? I want to use pkexec to run telinit. Should I do so directly? As far as I know telinit can tell upstart to reread it's configuration (telinit q) or restart (telinit u) Which while problematical (upstart doesn't handle this well) doesn't seem to be a security problem
<len-dt> telinit 0 or 6 the user already can do (reboot or halt). that leaves telinit s or S which goes to single user mode.
<len-dt> hmm, single user as root I think, sounds bad, but in ubuntu anyone can get there with a reboot to recovery mode.
<len-dt> outside of ubuntu, if the user needs to login even in recovery mode, then this will be true in RL1 as well.
<len-dt> Any holes in my thinking?
<ailo> single user as root sounds bad to me
<len-dt> I think it is safer than running telinit from a sh script which filters the command line variables. I am not sure there are not combinations that might tell the script to do something nasty.
<len-dt> ailo, Ya, it sounds bad. Ubuntu's fault that, most distros require a password to get into a console in runlevel 1.
<len-dt> Those that use sudo with no root password allow user login others require the root password.
<ailo> But even so, you don't log in as root for user tasks. Only to change the system or doing some monitoring you are unable to do as user
<ailo> But I guess you are just exhausting all options
<ailo> I don't know much about run levels and init scripts, so all I can offer there is to help doing some testing later on, if it becomes a valid option to try
<len-dt> With ubuntu, if you have physical access... you are root!
<len-dt> All you have to do is reboot to rescue mode.
<len-dt> ailo, this is one thing I always thought was odd about ubuntu.
<len-dt> I could never have done that with Slackware.
<ailo> You mean it's not very secure in that sense?
<ailo> If you have physical access, unless disks are encrypted, you can always put the disks into another machine
<len-dt> Any system that someone has physical access to can be entered anyway. Boot from your own CD.
<len-dt> Ya, encryption would be the only way around that.
<ailo> I wonder if encryption works if you try booting into rescue mode, not as the user? I think it does
<len-dt> RL 1 is pretty secure even having root access. The network is shut down so no external shells are available. I think it shuts down serial access too.
<ailo> Well, don't really know. Only that I've had problems with some software trying to use encrypted drives belonging to my own user
<ailo> Pretty radical thing to do, in order to get slightly better performance
<len-dt> encrypted partitions still work because the partitions are only accessible with the key... root or not.
<len-dt> However your point is valid. It is best to wrote a binary program that only takes input to change through RL 2 to 5.
<len-dt> ailo, I was just feeling lazy ;-)
<len-dt> ailo, it has been a long time since I last coded c ... I will probably have to look up each thing I do :P
<ailo> What bugs me is that on probably most machines, you might only need one or two configs diffing from the -generic kernel in order to get full blown low latency performance (also having PAM privileges set up), but then you have this and that hardware configuration which does not work properly. 
<ailo> It's gotta be the fault of the kernel in the end
<ailo> And all it contains
<ailo> As we talked about, drivers and what else
<len-dt> ailo, ya my netbook is a perfect case... wireless has to be removed and then... solid as a rock.
<len-dt> ailo, well till memory runs out.
<ailo> This is why I feel that the standard setup is the best default setup, where there may be a few configuration options that could never hurt and thus could also be added by default, but leaving the rest for trouble-shooting more or less
<len-dt> ailo, I would in some ways like to double my memory and kill swap. shnatsel says that is a bad idea. I guess swap is used for hibernation
<ailo> And for those options that should be tweakable, because they either do not do anything useful for most people, or may even do the opposite, an application would be best
<ailo> hibernation.. now often does that work? I've had a problem with that on a lot of machines
<ailo> But should probably not be disablel :P
<shnatsel> len-dt: http://rudd-o.com/linux-and-free-software/tales-from-responsivenessland-why-linux-feels-slow-and-how-to-fix-that
<ailo> disabled*
<len-dt> ailo, RL2 should always be left default anyway. shnatsel Ya I read it.
<shnatsel> len-dt: I think you need some filesystem caches anyway
<len-dt> shnatsel, there seems (even in the comments for that article) to be some disagreement on his aproach.
<len-dt> caches in swap?
<shnatsel> len-dt: yeah I agree it needs further research
<shnatsel> len-dt: there are no caches in swap
<shnatsel> len-dt: linux is not stupid
<len-dt> I thought not.
<shnatsel> len-dt: so either use zcache or swap to zram, and the latter is preferable because it's used only when you're really running out of ram if you've decreased swappiness
<len-dt> shnatsel, with the use of zram, which I assume looks like swap to the machine, what happens then to hibernate?
<ailo> len-dt: About those tweakable options. Since they probably don't do a lot to most people, "performance mode" does not seem appropriate to me. More like "troubleshooting mode". I wouldn't use that term, but just add the options to a audio-settings application, which might as well be a completely rewritten ubuntustudio-controls, and have that application easily accesible to the user
<shnatsel> len-dt: I haven't tested that myself, but it's stored in RAM and it can't be swapped into itself, so the worst case is as much data as fits into zramswap being compressed and then swapped on the disk
<len-dt> ailo,  the name doesn't matter to me.
<shnatsel> len-dt: which is in fact faster than usual hibernation because it basically means lzop-compressing data before writing it to disk
<shnatsel> len-dt: I'm negotiating replacing lzop with lz4 btw
<shnatsel> lz4 is exactly the same except it uncompresses much faster
<len-dt> shnatsel, I'm more worried about some of the data being mistakenly stored in zram instead of swap and there for vanishing when power goes.
<shnatsel> len-dt: I believe those parts of memory are never swapped into itself
<shnatsel> len-dt: otherwise it'd make no sense
<len-dt> ailo, quite definitely I (personally) want to be able to switch because I want to be able to use wireless when not doing audio too.
<len-dt> shnatsel, ok, personally I never use hibernation anyways, I always shutdown.
<shnatsel> len-dt: I've popularized swapping to zram with http://www.webupd8.org/2011/10/increased-performance-in-linux-with.html which triggered adding my scripts to repos of several distros. I've received several bug reports, but nobody complained about hibernation.
<shnatsel> len-dt: neither do I
<len-dt> So my questions are more for if I am helping someone out.
<len-dt> I do want to try zram though. shnatsel and I think I will (for personal interest more than anything) try running swap-less but adding more memory. It seems to me it is not too hard turning swap on and off... well it used to be easy ;-)
<shnatsel> len-dt: sudo swapoff -a
<shnatsel> len-dt: sudo swapoff
<shnatsel> one of them
<len-dt> shnatsel, Ya, that command is still there. 
<len-dt> shnatsel, would swapoff kill zram as well?
<shnatsel> len-dt: yes
<shnatsel> len-dt: and it's not easy to bring it back :P
<len-dt> shnatsel, so I would want to do swapoff _special_
<len-dt> That is specify the partition.
<shnatsel> len-dt: prediction: you'll get very annoyed by swapless setup because of out-of-memory kills with apps losing data.
<shnatsel> len-dt: swapoff --help or man swapoff
<len-dt> shnatsel, thats what I'm looking at.
<shnatsel> len-dt: to get a taste of out-of-memory kills, press Ctrl+Alt+PrintScreen+F
<shnatsel> len-dt: it triggers one :)
<len-dt> shnatsel, I agree it would be bad for normal use, but If I don't have enough memory for my audio stuff to all fit in memory in the first place I think I would rather know that before I hit the record button.
<len-dt> In other words, swap off would be a specific use only 
<shnatsel> len-dt: write a wrapper script checking the amout of memory available on app startup. I've got one for ensuring all my memory modules are in place and connected.
<shnatsel> it runs on boot though
<ailo> len-dt: Yes, but the switch is only helpful to a few people, so it won't be interesting to most people to use. Anyway, implementation is step 2
<ailo> End of this day for me too. I'll be around tomorrow again
<len-dt> ailo, GN
<len-dt> shnatsel, I'm going to play with zram... and maybe zcache.
<shnatsel> len-dt: zcache is not easy to set up
<shnatsel> len-dt: to get the code I mean
<len-dt> Ok, I'm looking through your blog just now... I'll get to that.
<len-dt> Hard it may be, but something of use to me I think.
<len-dt> shnatsel, The first thing for me though, is 1Gig of ram is really too small. Doing a witch hunt to see what modules/daemons/apps I can kill to get more ram space is probably counter productive. I think US wants to be an "up to date" OS. To do that I think I need to update my machines. I need at least 2G ram, but will try to end up with 4G on my desktop which is the main audio machine anyway.
<len-dt> I think zcache is a good idea as it reserves space for cache.
<shnatsel> len-dt: I've been hitting swapping deaths with 2Gb, but with zramswap all is fine now
<shnatsel> len-dt: and Firefox doesn't eat up gigabytes of memory anymore
<shnatsel> in fact it uses only 100mb for gmail while chrome uses 200mb
<len-dt> How well does disk read/write work without cache space?
<shnatsel> and I'm comfortable with 1Gb on my laptop too
<shnatsel> len-dt: no idea
<len-dt> shnatsel, so you would recommend setting up zram first.
<len-dt> And let cache take care of itself.
<shnatsel> len-dt: yes
<shnatsel> len-dt: and I'm not very fond of zcache personally, though I haven't really looked into it
<len-dt> shnatsel, is it worth using zram with the LZ1 alog. on an atom based machine?
<shnatsel> len-dt: lzo, yes, I think so
<shnatsel> len-dt: try and see
<len-dt> Ok, what split would I use for 1G
<shnatsel> len-dt: just install my zramswap-enabler
<shnatsel> len-dt: and see if it suits you
<len-dt> shnatsel, is there anything there not compatible with 12.04?
<shnatsel> len-dt: already resolved :)
<len-dt> Hmm, it depends on the generic kernel.
<shnatsel> oh, I haven't added that kernel flavour to dependencies, sorry
<shnatsel> what's the package name?
<len-dt> zramswap-enabler
<shnatsel> no, for that kernel of yours
<len-dt> Or do you mean owr kernel.
<len-dt> I can't look just now... I'm DL the generic kernel...
<len-dt> Our package is linux-lowlatency-pae
<len-dt> I don't know what the amd64 package is though.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2012-05-15
<len-dt> I think the amd64 is just linux-lowlatency shnatsel , no pae
<shnatsel> len-dt: okay, I'll add that now
<shnatsel> len-dt: oh wait
<shnatsel> len-dt: I'll kill that dependency
<shnatsel> len-dt: precise can't have that old kernels anyway
<shnatsel> len-dt: pushed, it will build in PPA in an hour or so
<ScottL>  /join #ubuntu-community-team
<TheMuso> ScottL: Hey there, hope your trip was uneventful.
<ScottL> TheMuso, aye, coming home was and i slept quite a bit as well :)
<TheMuso> Good to heaR.
<ScottL> TheMuso, how was your trip home, i imagine yours was quite a bit longer than mine :P
<TheMuso> ScottL: Yeah it was, but it was also uneventful.
<ScottL> that is good
<ScottL> i looked at the blueprint for the kernel team and it does seem to have a line item about seeing about the lowlatency kernel
<ScottL> tim seemed almost noncommittal about it though, he just said that he had it in the blueprint as something to do as long as they can collapse the other kernels
<ScottL> eh, it's still only in the pad comments at this point:  http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-q/meeting/20236/hardware-q-kernel-version-and-flavors/
<ScottL> i'm quite sure tim doesn't particularly care for me, but i don't blame him though, i'm can be pretty single minded and annoying when i'm trying to get what i want :P
<TheMuso> heh so can I. :)
<ScottL> i found my plenary presentation:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fu3pT_9nb8o   @ 36:49
<TheMuso> heh cool.
<ScottL> it's kinda weird to know there is a video of a presentation that someone flew you across the us to give
<ScottL> this whole ubuntu studio thing is kinda a weird "alice falling down the rabbit hole" situation sometimes
<TheMuso> heh
<len-dt> ScottL, speaking on stage is different than playing huh.
<len-dt> good presentation.
<ScottL> thanks len-dt , i still haven't seen it though, i'll wait until my wife is home and we can watch it together, somehow that seems like it won't be bad to watch then
<len-dt> ScottL, there are some sound wierdnesses
<ScottL> len-dt, you mean in the presentation video?
<ScottL> that's probably true, i was warned that the sound was crappy, although the small snippet i heard sounded okay
* ScottL changed the topic of #ubuntustudio-devel to: Ubuntu Studio Development Channel | https://code.launchpad.net/ubuntustudio | Ubuntu Studio 12.04 LTS is released: http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/ubuntustudio/releases/12.04/release/
* ScottL changed the topic of #ubuntustudio-devel to: Ubuntu Studio Development Channel | https://code.launchpad.net/ubuntustudio | Ubuntu Studio 12.04 LTS is released: http://goo.gl/FEAxP
<ScottL> hehe, i watched it with my wife and i see what people meant about the sounds being crappy :P   two audio tracks used at once that are out of sync is never a good idea
<scott-work> email sent the -devel list for blueprints, please read and give any feedback/suggestions
<scott-work> but please don't just nitpick on particular work items at this point, this is a brainstorming session
<shnatsel> scott-work: well, refactoring seeds to represent workflows would be great. Didn't the ubiquity patch needed for that land in Precise?
<shnatsel> also, it would be neat if somebody added my performance items to the blueprint
<scott-work> shnatsel: i was hoping that len or ailo would head that up, including adding their suggestions as well
<scott-work> but if they don't i'll work it in then
<shnatsel> we've got a new LightDM greeter in elementary, it remotely resembles unity greeter
<scott-work> shnatsel: part of the ubiquity patch land in precise, we still need a few things to have that fully implemented
<shnatsel> requires hardware acceleration, but in 12.10 it won't be an issue thanks to llvmpipe
<shnatsel> scott-work: oh I see
<shnatsel> what a
<scott-work> mmmmmm, that's interesting about the lightdm greeter theme
<shnatsel> it's not even a greeter theme anymore, it's a different greeter
<shnatsel> scott-work: early demo: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=Mz09q6jREMY
<shnatsel> scott-work: should be fully functional by the middle of the cycle
<shnatsel> it has a fade-in on start, so you can smoothly transition from plymouth to the greeter
<scott-work> watching
<shnatsel> also a new notification daemon is coming with a lot of thought put into it, not like that terrible notify-osd, but that's not for 12.10 for you I guess
<scott-work> it could be, depends on what is involved and when it would be available
<shnatsel> well, there are some upstream memory leaks which notify-osd "fixes" with regular suicide
<shnatsel> so it's not for the release based on 12.04 for us, so not for the release based on 12.10 for you
<shnatsel> oh, pantheon shell also... not sure how well it will work for studio use cases, though
<shnatsel> we've got a file browser, a fork of marlin (marlin is abandoned), but you seem to be content with thunar
<shnatsel> save-as-you-type damn-extensible plain text (code) editor
<shnatsel> also we will probably have cool boot screens, but that's a very low-priority item for you
<ochosi> oh, nice, elementary - u-studio exchange :)
<shnatsel> ochosi: yup :)
<ochosi> if there's anything meaningful for xubuntu don't hesitate to head over
<shnatsel> elementary <=> xubuntu? Hmm...
<shnatsel> ochosi: is xfce okay with GSettings?
<shnatsel> ochosi: we've got a lot of exciting stuff to share like Contrator
<ochosi> right
<shnatsel> ochosi: all our apps use Glib's GSettings API, if it's bridged into xfconf then we'd be glad to share
<ochosi> i think i have to look into contractor more to know what is needed and what we could use it for
<shnatsel> ochosi: http://elementaryos.org/journal/contractor-not-sharing-service
<ochosi> yeah, such a bridge would also be useful for u-studio i guess
<shnatsel> ochosi: GSettings has a lot of backends, but last time I checked xfconf was not one of them. There were keyfiles, gconf and dconf, and the latter is used in gnome and elementary
<ochosi> mhm
<shnatsel> ochosi: so if there's an xfconf gsettings backend or if xubuntu is OK with shipping dconf, let the fun begin!
<ochosi> mind if i check in with you tomorrow? it's getting kinda late here...
<shnatsel> ochosi: in fact Contractor doesn't use GSettings AFAIR
<ochosi> i think dconf is used by xfconf anyway (if i'm not mistaken)
<shnatsel> ochosi: sure it's OK
<shnatsel> ochosi: last time I checked xfconf was older than dconf
<shnatsel> ochosi: and was written from scratch
<shnatsel> ochosi: meet me anytime at #elementary
<ochosi> well, i'll check with guys @ #xfce-dev
<ochosi> yeah, i'm also always there ;)
<ochosi> but since xubuntu and u-studio are already collaborating
<ochosi> and since i'm trying to forge a small connection to elementary and lubuntu
<ochosi> i thought i'd speak up :)
<shnatsel> ochosi: oh we need collab with lubuntu too, they are getting a litte too lightweight for us though
<shnatsel> ochosi: their aim is like 128mb RAM and elementary OS uses 200
<ochosi> phew
<ochosi> well that's not our main goal
<ochosi> we want usability, but that usually comes at a price
<ochosi> anyhoo, time to hit the sack
<shnatsel> last time I checked (and that was over a year ago) the DE was nowhere near being complete, it was like a bunch of random apps thrown together and called a DE
<shnatsel> scott-work: our greeter is getting a major overhaul. expect awesomeness.
<scott-work> hehehe :)  i will
<scott-work> alrighty, gotta go and pick kids up 
<ailo> Seems like there's at least one usb audio multichannel device that works under Linux (yet to be fully verified, I would say - there's a discussion about it on LAU) http://www.presonus.com/products/Detail.aspx?ProductId=65
<ailo> holstein: ^
<len-dt> ailo, the manufacture sure doesn't seem interested in adding linux as a supported system.
<ailo> len-dt: I haven't heard of any that has
<ailo> There are other devices that work too, like M-Audio Fast Track Ultra (8ch), with dedicated drivers, but not well enough
<ailo> Dedicated, but not coded by M-Audio
<len-dt> ailo, I guess the question is how open they are with info to developers.
<ailo> This would be the only 8ch usb device that I have heard of that actually is usable
<len-dt> I would be happy with 4
<ailo> I was thinking about what about making it a strategy to really put a spotlight on this one product, try making them add linux as a supported OS, and then try making other manufacturers interesting in adding support too
<ailo> Can't record drums with anything less than 8ch pretty much
<ailo> 12 would be better
<len-dt> Being able to say US recommends this or that, might help.
<ailo> If it can be fully verified that this is a rock solid device, I wouldn't mind recommending it, only because there's no other to recommend
<ailo> And since usb audio is such a nessecity for a lot of people, it makes it really important too
<len-dt> ailo, there are so many platforms with USB only. Getting 2 i/o seems to be easy, but more is not.
<ailo> Even 2ch is not simple, if you want anything more than 48kHz/16Bits
<ailo> Not many devices to choose from really
<len-dt> ailo, I am guessing that the USB 2.0 audio standard is "too open"... that having a driver is the standard?
<len-dt> sync-able and expandable too. Out of my price range though ;-)
<len-dt> ailo, but having said that, the price ($500) is very reasonable.
<ailo> I would have bought it if I that was an option a year ago, when I got a 8ch firewire device
<ailo> It's about the same specs as for the focusrite pro 40, which I have now
<ailo> With usb, I wouldn't need to worry about what machine I use as much. Right now, I'm lucky we have a laptop with firewire
<len-dt> If I was getting anything it would be the bigger delta (1010?) to sync to my d66
<ailo> I have both
<len-dt> ailo, I notice my local supplier doesn't have the 1010...
<ailo> 12 ch, but it's not practical on the road
<len-dt> I'm not there yet.
<len-dt> ailo, this page looks very promising: http://linuxmusicians.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=7543
<len-dt> I note he seems to have done no set up at all. just plugged it in.
<ailo> len-dt: There's a discussion about the device on LAU right now, where they say it is fully supported. A guy is going to report back having tested it himself
<len-dt> The link above the guy says jack sees all 8 in and outs.
<ailo> I'm just wondering about a few things, like latency, and the mixer inside it
<ailo> Probably, functionality is somewhat limited
<len-dt> "My jack setup is :
<len-dt> sample rate : 48000
<len-dt> samples/period : 256
<len-dt> period/buffer : 2
<len-dt> Jack estimated latency is : 10,7 Ms
<len-dt> I'm on a Lenovo 3000 N200 dual core 2ghz 2gio ram, lubuntu 11.10+ KxStudio is my system and I hadn't experienced any performance issues by now."
<ailo> Not good enough for me :P
<len-dt> "I bought presonus audio box 1818 vsl today !
<len-dt> Everything is working like a charm, meaning I can route any input to any card output (even earphones) and I can even set the clock source using the alsa mixer xfce front end. "
<len-dt> ailo, 10ms is a bit high.
<ailo> Even if he can connect to all inputs and outputs, doesn't mean he can change inside routing
<len-dt> I'm not sure if this is someone who tested "how low can I go" either. Good enough for recording, but not for live I guess.
<ailo> Yeah, for recording it has to be ok
<ailo> Unless you need to record soft synths and stuff like that
<len-dt> He says he can route stuff. Don't know how much of the onboard DSPs he can use.
<ailo> He doesn't say anything about the mixer routing, inside the device
<ailo> jack doesn't reveal that
<len-dt> soft synths should not be a problem in recording either if they are recorded to a track... or even as a midi track. It is more fiddling to move the timing of the track after recording to line up though. Latency inside the internal mixer should be defined on the manufactures website.
<ailo> On devices like that, it's more or less a full fledged mixer inside, when it comes to routing itself
<ailo> len-dt: It's a little hard to follow your own playing if the latency is too high
<ailo> You need to monitor yourself too
<ailo> On firewire devices, you can use the ffado-mixer, but to my knowledge, there's nothing equivalent for alsa
<ailo> Only lately is the ffado-mixer supporting my focusrite properly
<ailo> I tried it last summer, and ended up muting all my inputs and outputs
<len-dt> Wasn't thinking of that. I could say monitor on an external noise box. That would work for me, but the external patch would have to be close enough to the softsynth for me to get the right art input
<ailo> As long as you're monitoring externally, latency is no problem
<len-dt> Latency 	2.8 ms - 6 ms, analog in to out 
<len-dt> So at least 1.4 from input to computer... before Jack sees it and starts counting.
<len-dt> So 13 to 15 ms latency from xlr to jackd line to app.
<len-dt> ailo, I don't know, but I would imagine midi out can be set to follow midi in.
<len-dt> ailo, it has wordclock out, but not in. can't hook two together?
<ailo> len-dt: It has 8ch ADAT, right?
<len-dt> Yup. so you  can sync the adat or sync to the adat?
<ailo> I haven't ever dabbled with ADAT, but I'm sure you can make the ADAT sync to the device
<ailo> I was thinking about maybe just getting a 8ch mic pre with A/D converting and ADAT out to expand the device I have
<ailo> But, that costs almost as much as another device
<len-dt> That was about to be my comment. Are there many used adat machines around ?
<ailo> I'm sure they are lying around in peoples basements. Haven't seen anyone use one for the longest time
<len-dt> Are they more than 16 bit?
 * len-dt can't remember...
<ailo> 20bit or something like that? Don't really know
<ailo> http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/feb02/articles/alesishd24.asp
<ailo> 16 but or 20 bit
<len-dt> Still it would be good for using for less "important" lines. things that don't have much dynamic range.
<ailo> I missed the part where it said 24 bit :P
<len-dt> the 1818vsl claims to have all the mixer eeefects you might need built in.
<ailo> Yeah, just wondering if that's just an external software using its dps for processing, or if the fx really are builtin
<len-dt> expensive toy that one...
<len-dt> I'm looking through the manual... it may say something.
<ailo> It's really hard to reinvent the wheel, btw. I've been slowly doing that for 2 or more years now
<len-dt> It looks like the "fat channel" SW has to be loaded into the unit. Probably at boot/power up.
<len-dt> It comes on a cd/DVD.
<ailo> Never had a device with fx dsp. I think pro tools has had that for years
<ailo> len-dt: My ide for creating puredata libs http://imagepaste.nullnetwork.net/viewimage.php?id=3866
<len-dt> I think there are three DSPs in the box though.
<ailo> Have had one for more than 6 months, but started a new one now. Reorganizing the whole library structure. 
<ailo> Since each library is also a git repo, I build in controls for handling the repo as well
<len-dt> learning PD is on my to do list... but it will have to wait for now.
<ailo> It's such an extensive project, that I've lost my way numerous times, having to start over. Kind of what's happening now, but I'm getting better at not messing things up too much
<ailo> I'm creating a whole live environment, doing everything in pd. Sequencing, sample playing, fx, everything
<len-dt> I was thinking studio in a box, but you are using it for live so it would be different.
<ailo> I just finished an object for saving settings a few days ago. It handles replacing a saved tag out of 50'000 and autosaving pretty well
<ailo> Well, mostly using the help of an external object not made by me
<ailo> pd I guess is really best suited for live audio
<ailo> When making this helper program, I made it themable. Been putting too much time on the visual, but it helps keeping the spirit up having something nice to look at
<len-dt> Yup. been there.
<len-dt> ailo,  the manual for the 1818 seems to indicate that latency can be lower than 11ms. Just that that is a good setting for recording.
<ailo> len-dt: Haven't done much on the wiki. Been mostly coding my own stuff. The kernel page is a little messy, but I'm going to clean it up during this week https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/audio-settings/kernel.
<ailo> Not really saying so much right now. I need to go through all the configs and maybe add some.
<len-dt> ailo, the kernel page looked pretty good to me. It has the information needed I think... from a non-kerenl guru point...
<ailo> I still need to set up a PPA for kernel builds. Would make testing somewhat easier, even though building your own is not that hard. Just takes time
<ailo> len-dt: Did you think more about runlevels, and how to solve some of your problems?
<ailo> len-dt: I think probably the best way to continue with wiki pages is to name them https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/<pagename>, and if it's audio related, you could just add a link to it on this page https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/audio-settings
<len-dt> ailo, it's all there. Not hard really. I should for security sake make a program that takes 4 command line arguments and throws everything else away.
<ailo> len-dt: For instance, you could put links under "Categories" on that page
<len-dt> I need to put together a "roadmap" for Scott first.
<len-dt> The roadmap is for tweaks only.
<len-dt> ailo, I started on it, but already I am putting too much in it ;-)
<ailo> len-dt: I'd like to review that before hand if you don't mind. 
<ailo> Just to give you some input etc
<len-dt> ailo, sure. It has at least two steps of review after I finish anyway.
<len-dt> It isn't deciding anything so much as defining areas to look at.
<ailo> Yeah, of course. Just good to be more than one, since we are both into the same topic
<len-dt> Far example one item might be "swap issues" This would include setting swappiness or no swap or using zram or even getting more ram...
<len-dt> But the roadmap would just say swap issues.
<ailo> len-dt: Done any gtk or python coding anytime?
<ailo> I guess gtk at least?
<ailo> I was thinking about the possibility of making a ubuntustudio-controls application, which has been long overdue
<len-dt> No. I had just started the debian developers page stuff. with the guitar tunner.
<ailo> One purpose it would have it to help someone who did not install Ubuntu Studio, but some other version of Ubuntu to get their system pro audio capable
<len-dt> Ya, I tend to write guis in tktcl still.
<ailo> I'm not a seasoned Python coder by any means, but with time enough, it can happen. Already made one version, but won't be using any of that anyway
<ailo> I've been sort of planning to code the app during this summer, but it's hard to say how much time I will really have for it. 
<len-dt> I was going to write the config for tweaks setting for my RL thing that way. Basically as a part of my workflow app. which also needs a user config thing.
<ailo> Would be good to separate them, if only one is added
<ailo> But, why not make one controllable by the other?
<len-dt> That is sort of the idea. The workflow app needs to be small and not take much resources because it is live all the time. the config should do all the heavy lifting...
<ailo> My main prio is the pd project I'm working on. I also have a mixing thing coming up, which will take at least 1-2 weeks of full time. And then there's all these misc US stuff
<ailo> My goal with a -controls application would actually be to make it usable by any Debian based distro, but make it plugginable, so that the US version would have some US specific things. 
<ailo> Would be great to have it as a systray/indicator app, but the workflow thing you're working on would suit just as well as the holder for it
<len-dt> That is what configuration is for. That is also why multiple config files is good. A config can be added for each US workflow meta.
<ailo> I would love to help with the workflow app, but since my coding skills are yet not that time efficient, I just don't have the time
<len-dt> There could be some generic ones that come with the workflow app and then the user has the config editor to make their own custom workflows as well.
<ailo> That would be neat
<len-dt> ailo, The presonus 1818 user manual has a not bad tutorial on recording, everything from mic placement to levels/eq/compression...
<len-dt> The workflow app right now also has a red button that turns audio tweaks on and off.
<len-dt> ailo, the 1818 manual even includes the recipe for Jambalaya  ???
#ubuntustudio-devel 2012-05-16
<ailo> lol
<ailo> How about a recipe for rock'n'roll?
<len-dt> I think that was what the recording tutorial was all about.
<ailo> I gotta get out for a while. Been sitting in front of this screen enough for one day. See you tomorrow len
<len-dt> www.presonus.com/media/manuals/AB1818VSL_OM_V1_EN_Web.pdf
<len-dt> take a look some time... it could be a good place to start from.
<ailo> len-dt: The guy at LAU is going to order one, he says.. (looking up the post)
<ailo> lists.linuxaudio.org/pipermail/linux-audio-user/2012-May/084993.html
<ailo> Pretty amazing performance on atom 1GHz
<ailo> I'd still need to use it personally to really get the idea of what you can do with it, but I would now be willing to recommend it for people looking for multi channel usb devices
<len-dt> ailo, added the start on swap to your page.
 * len-dt is off to the beach...
<ailo> The beach? Not for another month around here :(
<ailo> Unless you like cold water
<ailo> And cold air
<len-dt> ailo, We sat around a fire and ate sausages... enjoyed peoples company. I was wearing shorts at work but it was a bit cool this evening.
<len-dt> ailo, the 1818 looks more and more interesting. I'll keep tabs on it for when I want something like that.
<len-dt> I think I will keep an eye open for an old adat too. Even if it won't do tape.
<len-dt> ailo, multi cpus changes the whole swap setup... see http://blog.jcole.us/2010/09/28/mysql-swap-insanity-and-the-numa-architecture/
<len-dt> I don't think we are likely to deal with 64Gig of ram in a system though...
<astraljava> len-dt: I'd kill for such a monster, though. :D With dual i7's.
<ailo> len-dt: Nice work on the wiki
<scott-work> interestingly, jono approached me at UDS about doing some ubuntu studio "accomplishments"
<scott-work> for those who don't know about this:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uyuy1GiNuwQ
<scott-work> http://www.jonobacon.org/2012/05/01/first-ubuntu-accomplishments-release/
<scott-work> if anyone has any suggestions for accomplishments, this could be a nice thing for new community members
<scott-work> oh, and http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fu3pT_9nb8o starting around 51:00
<len-dt> ailo, feel free to make any of those pages prettier.
<ailo> scott-work: Since Ubuntu Studio is so easy to find for new users, it makes sense to make the web site a central point with links and directions to everything linux audio related
<ailo> I just came to think about that from one of the responses on the mail list
<ailo> I guess that would just be a nice addition to the new website
<ailo> No need to write manuals on how to use software, or what devices are supported and so on. Just pass links to where you can find them.
<ailo> floss manuals is a great resource for learning about software. Then there's alsa, ffado and jack. And all the linux user dedicated websites
<ailo> Perhpas fit that in somewhere in the blueprint?
<ailo> We might only need to make our own manual for how to start jack and change its settings, also the PA related stuff
<ailo> There's no good US specific docs on that
<ailo> scott-work: I put up some links here. Will make another wiki page only for that later. Just to give you an idea https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/audio-settings/resources
<ailo> btw, is there an example of the new web page somewhere? (I guess there must be)
<scott-work> ailo: good ideas :)
<scott-work> ailo: you can find the current site (which i am currently working on) at https://staging.ubuntustudio.org
<scott-work> the https: is required, even though it isn't secure, to render the css correctly 
<scott-work> the browser will probably complain about it though
<ailo> scott-work: I suppose "FAQ" could be a good place to put up some links? I could make an example section for it. Gotta go for now
<len-dt> scott-work, Just looking at staging which looks good BTW, and am realizing that maybe the word "Contribute" is not the right word for what you are trying to communicate. My first thought is that is where I can give money (yes that would be nice too), but it takes a bit of thought to figure out it might mean help test or give ideas or whatever.
<scott-work> len-dt: do you have another word to suggest?  "development"?
<len-dt> I don't know what to use instead... get involved?
<len-dt> Development is ok... but it sounds like coding and having people suggest things or make comments while not seeming to most people to be very much is actually very helpful.
<len-dt> "wish list" "suggestions" "get involved". It would even be ok to have more than one that both point to the same page. Like development and "user comments"
<len-dt> scott-work, This is not a big show stopper for sure. I only mention it because you asked a while ago if I had any ideas about getting more people involved.  :)
<len-dt> I would also have a FAQ item something like  "Who makes Ubuntu Studio?" with the answer "People just like you" with a little blurb about how most of the work is very non-technical etc. showcasing the easiest things to help with. Once someone starts helping, they generally find they can do more than they thought.
<scott-work> i like "get involved" :)
<len-dt> Oh and a link to the contribute page (or whatever.
<scott-work> good ideas len-dt!
<len-dt> ailo, holstein picked up my ART tube pre usb interface today. My D66 now is truly the a 6x4 (no spdif out.) I don't know if I could use the USB outputs as part of output tracks. The USB codec is separate from the spdif stuff. So I could have spdif out at at 44100 while the USB was at 48000.
<len-dt> So I would guess not. Inputs are more important anyway.
<len-dt> Seems quiet even with the gain at max.
<len-dt> After I pick up my son, I will do some testing on the netbook to see how it compares to the internal card for latency and xruns.
<len-dt> It appears that the rate reported by jackd is meaningless. Jackd does not appear to know what the sample rate is.
<len-dt> Jackd sets the sample rate on starting. That is it sends a command to alsa to set the rate. However, if that setting fails, jackd doesn't know.
<len-dt> So if the card's sample rate is being set externally by a wordclock or spdif input jack doesn't know.
<len-dt> I don't know how this affects audio processing... but it would affect an ardour session. 
<len-dt> Ardour sets it's session rate to what jack says the card rate is at session creation. If Jack thinks it is 44100 but the external clock is 48000... playback would have a key change.
<len-dt> So, the user who uses an external clock source needs to make sure jack and external source are set to the same rate.
<len-dt> On a D66, spdif in is capture 9 and 10, same as a d1010 I would guess.
<len-dt> and capture 11 and 12 comes from the output of the internal mixer.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2012-05-17
<ailo> len-dt: I think what the problem might be in that case is that you can't set jack to sync from an external source?
<ailo> But you can do that for ice1712 from the mixer
<ailo> I guess jack would need to be able to sync to something over network though
<ailo> But, isn't all syncing hardware specific, and needs to be set for the device specifically.
<ailo> When I synced my ice1712's I set one of them to sync from an external source, and used the spdif connections for the sync
<ailo> Both on the same machine, both run by jack simultaniously
<ailo> But with the two as one alsa config
<len-dt> ailo, In my case the master is not connected to the computer at all.
<len-dt> It is not a problem really, I just have to set jack and the master the same.
<len-dt> I have read something like this before (jack site maybe) That jack does not handle changes to rate made by external programs.
<ailo> I've only once synced two machines for a recording. One had firewire, the other pci. We used Cubase, which has a soft sync
<ailo> spdif
<ailo> Not only did the cards sync, but also transport on both machines
<ailo> So, you controlled both from one
<ailo> Doesn't seem like it would require too much coding to make that happen for linux as well
<ailo> Maybe it does? I haven't investigated
<len-dt> Sync will happen, that is not a problem. Jack just doesn't know it is happening.
<len-dt> Jack thinks there is only ever one card in the system
<len-dt> I only mention this stuff in case one of us has a user asking questions ailo 
<ailo> len-dt: Have you checked out the --clocksource argument for jack?
<ailo> Though that is not driver specific, and may not be relevant for this
<ailo> Maybe useful for midi, I don't know
<ailo> I'm trying to understand the three options. system, hpet and cycle
<ailo> system is default anyway
<ailo> Do any sound servers know what sample rate an externally synced device is running at?
<len-dt> ailo, if it isn't in qjackctl I haven't looked at it.
<len-dt> from man jackd it is nothing to do with sample clock though.
<len-dt> pykaraoke says it handles *.mid files too.
<len-dt> scratch that last line...
<holstein> i would like to propose pointing the http://ubuntustudio.org/ URL to a wiki page
<holstein> this one.. https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio
<holstein> just a forward or a webhop or whatever
<knome> i'm not sure if that's a good iead
<knome> *idea
<knome> if you point the people to the wiki now, they'll bookmark the wiki page
<holstein> im not suggesting that we go back to a site
<knome> when you release the new website, everyone's just going to the wiki (or dismissing any website whatsoever)
<holstein> im proposing that for long term
<knome> holstein, the new theme is designed and waiting for content only. why would you want to dump that?
<holstein> its just a proposal
<holstein> i would want that for ease of editing content
<knome> editing wordpress *is* easy
<holstein> sure
<len-dt> knome, A new website with little content would be better than what is there now.
<holstein> but who can edit?
<knome> len-dt, that's scott's call :)
<knome> holstein, anybody in a specific group
<holstein> wikis are arguably more easily maintainable
<holstein> *anyone* can ome along and fix whatever
<holstein> come*
<knome> holstein, for xubuntu, we have access for everybody in the xubuntu-team
<len-dt> holstein, the wiki is not going away
<holstein> right
<knome> besides the uubntu wiki is really slow...
<holstein> sure, but it works
<knome> so does wordpress
<holstein> and im just suggesting that it solves a lot of issues
<knome> the current site doesn't work, that's true
<knome> like?
<knome> what are the benefits comparing to wordpress?
<len-dt> I think the US website in front of the wiki needs to be closed and not editable by "anyone"
<holstein> knome: its dont
<holstein> done*
<knome> holstein, the website is done too.
<holstein> *anyone* can edite
<holstein> edit*
<knome> i wouldn't want anybody to edit the xubuntu website
<holstein> knome: i dont really feel like its a fair comparison
<knome> holstein, why not?
<holstein> im not saying "a wiki would be so much better"
<holstein> im saying, the wiki is done, and anyone from the community can edit
<knome> holstein, you are suggesting to replace the US website with a wiki, why can't i compare?
<holstein> knome: you can, im just saying, the wiki is not better, its just arguably more appropriate
<knome> in xubuntu, we are targeting the website for end-users and people not contributing yet, the wiki for contributors
<holstein> sure, and in here, we dont have people
<holstein> we just have a few folks
<knome> for developer stuff and stuff WIP, wiki is better
<knome> so does xubuntu.
<holstein> i would like to reduce the edit points
<len-dt> holstein, US has a focus set by the US team. the website needs to reflect that as that is what users expect. with the wiki people expect anyone might say anything. The website is promotional and needs to be handled by the US team to reflect the direction US is officially going.
<knome> len-dt, that's very well said
<holstein> sure.. but its not being handled
<holstein> its not working
<knome> holstein, yes, because it's in a transition state
<holstein> right
<knome> holstein, take care of the content for the new site, and it can get published
<holstein> and its been in that state for over a year that i know of
<len-dt> As I said, even something with little content that the user can see is updating would be better than nothing though
<knome> yeah, because nobody is working on the content
<knome> https://staging.ubuntustudio.org/
<holstein> the content is cool, right?
<holstein> i see there are some link updates to make
<knome> sure.
<knome> and things to finalize
<knome> i can't help with that, i'm not that familiar with US
<holstein> i will try and instigate some hang in here to sort out the content
<holstein> i thought we were "set to pop" on the content, and we were waiting for someone somewhere else
<knome> i'm waiting for scott's ACK to move forward (publish) the website
<holstein> ScottL, you want to try and set up a few hours to knock this out?
<holstein> ScottL: maybe sunday evening? i know you are busy through the week...
<holstein> maybe we can crowd source it in here... devide and conquer so to speak
<ailo> knome: Are the contents for the website fully decided?
<ailo> Also, will we be able to edit them at any time?
<knome> ailo, (1) that you have to ask from scott  (2) yeah
<knome> ailo, US is able to control who can have which permissions based on LP groups
<ailo> As long as (2) is covered, I guess we're ok
<knome> ailo, with xubuntu, everybody in the xubuntu-website team has admin access, anybody in the xubuntu-team team has editing access to non-published posts
<ailo> I'm looking at the staging site, and it seems to be missing a lot of content yet
<knome> yeah, that's probably trye
<knome> *true
<ailo> scott-work: There's been a discussion about the web page. You might like to read the "back-scroll", once it's updated
<knome> ailo, https://launchpad.net/~ubuntustudio-website
<knome> ailo, request to join that team - once you're accepted, you'll have editing rights; )
<ailo> holstein: I think if we work together, we could finish up all the pages for the web site, make sure the content is ok to be published
<ailo> Probably a days work if we split some things up?
<knome> remember you can always just hide unfinished pages
<ailo> I guess that's an option too :P. 
<knome> or, just publish unfinished - as we eventually did with xubuntu
<knome> that gives you some motivation to finish the stuff
<ailo> The "Feature Tour" is sketched out. Missing some text and pictures, so not really done. The download links are not linking on the "Download" page. "FAQ" is empty yet. "FL/OSS" has some text, but distros like Puredyne (which is not active anymore) and Studio64 (not active under that name) should probably be removed. "Contribute" needs some work too.
<ailo> So 4 areas that need more text and pictures, and the Download section needs to be finished
<ailo> https://staging.ubuntustudio.org/
<ailo> I've started some work that could end up on the faq section, so I could finish that
<knome> bbl
<holstein> ailo: i was thinking just a meetup on here.. few of us knock it out
<holstein> at the end of 2 hours, thats the stie
<holstein> site*
<ailo> holstein: Sounds good to me
<ailo> I'm currently working on the faq section, but it's a bit of work, since it's kind of tied in to the wiki
<ailo> And the wiki is a mess, but I'll leave that for later :P
<ailo> We really need to fix the wiki up
<holstein> yup
<ailo> One thing I think we need to do is to drastically minimize it
<holstein> i sorted out that main landing page a bit earlier
<holstein> ailo: agreed
<ailo> holstein: I started a page for hardware support. Could be worked on. Mostly linking to other sites https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuStudio/SupportedHardware
<ailo> I feel that's one of the main Q's a user would have, and therefore needs a central place in FAQ
<ailo> I added links to it at two places on the wiki, so it's in the system
<ailo> Also made sure there are no duplicates, as there does not seem to be
<holstein> i almost feel like a big page that says "dont bother"
<holstein> just come and ask someone in person
<holstein> i know, i would have never gotten it without help
<holstein> i read a bunch of documentation that conflicted with its self, other docs, and what i actually found
<ailo> You mean about the wiki as a whole?
<holstein> a kernel or alsa rev, and device support can drastically change
<holstein> ailo: really just "how to use JACK"
<holstein> i usually start by saying all the alternatives and reasons why you likely dont need JACK
<ailo> It's a tough one. You would like to keep it minimal, but also have enough info to be valuable
<holstein> i feel like paul davis is tackling this, or at least thinking about it
<holstein> hopefully by 14.04 or whatever, we'll have pulse with the generic kernel rocking some nice latency and stability!!
<ailo> I guess, if PA would be as well performing as jack it would be enough for most people. But you'd still want the ability to connect software anyway you please, as well as use session software
<holstein> pavucontrol is nice
<ailo> But not really enough
<holstein> hopefully, it could all be do-able in PA
<ailo> You'd just need a addon for that, and it would be the same deal though
<ailo> And with ffado becoming alsa (as I've heard), it would really tie things up
<holstein> yup
<holstein> thats going to simplify things
<holstein> using firewire with pulse
<ailo> If we make the wiki extremely minimal, we could make a list of pages that need to be updated between releases, or make sure there are release-based pages for them
<ailo> In the end, I don't think there will be that many that needs to be redone each release
<ailo> The current wiki is too ambitious for this project
<ailo> No unneeded manuals. Make links to places where updated manuals already exist
<holstein> totally agree!
<holstein> wiki overload!!
<scott-work> that all sounds good
<scott-work> i see my email from ailo and the website team, adding him now
<ailo> thx
<scott-work> done
<scott-work> i plan to spend an hour tonight on the website and then 2-3 hours tomorrow evening
<ailo> scott-work: I'm working on the FAQ section, and using the wiki FAQ as cross reference. Will try to finish that today. I'll post a link to the Google Doc later
<ailo> scott-work: https://docs.google.com/document/d/182PaT7rfbgL5iy-NoVCFZkxTjkG6mCiLjoffvBaXC3w/edit
<ailo> holstein: Maybe we should start a whole new wiki layout from scratch on another page, until we can publish it. I don't think it's easy just start editing the front page
<holstein> ailo: i kinda wish we could blow em all out
<holstein> start from scratch
<ailo> holstein: Yes, but we might want to use something from the original wiki
<ailo> And we need to have something up while we're still editing
<holstein> ailo: im with you!
<ailo> holstein: Nothing added but the page name https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuStudio/NewWiki
<ailo> Once it's ready, we just copy and paste it
<ailo> holstein: So what do we need? 1. Intro to US, 2. Installation instructions (+ hardware support?), 3. minimal usage guide, including configuration 4. Links to other sites (try to get them all in here) 5. Notes on contribution
<holstein> not sure.. im getting a little darker about it
<holstein> i personaly could see 2 routes.. do i need ubuntustudio?... that one just sends you back to ubuntu
<holstein> the other links to the IRC or the forums
<holstein> i personally dont feel like there is *any* documentation that we can maintain or keep current enough to be helpful
<holstein> theres *so* much hardware out there...
<ailo> Heh, well I think that's a little too radical on the minimal side
<holstein> that being said.. i with you!
<holstein> and i'll get behind whatever you decide and help as i can
<ailo> I know what you mean, but I feel we can be tactical and make sure there's as little need-to-edit-per-release info as possible
<ailo> And make sure that which is not, is as minimal as possible too
<holstein> yup.. im totally confident in you and what you are proposing
<ailo> Maybe we only need to revise a couple of pages every release. I think we can handle that
<holstein> well.. ideally, we have several hundered folks revising based on their hardware
<holstein> just one line or 2
<holstein> but.... lets do what we can
<ailo> On hardware, I think we should just give links on most things
<holstein> yup.. to alsa and ffado
<ailo> The only thing that is a bit of a headache I think, is usb devices
<holstein> i like that.. or whatever
<ailo> So, I'd like to have some info on usb devices for now at least
<ailo> We'll make a link "HOWTOS" for anyone who wants to write about *anything* that way it won't mess up the whole front page
<ailo> Something like this https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuStudio/NewWiki
<ailo> We'd only need to edit a couple of pages per release for sure
<ailo> ScottL: I updated the installation page on the wiki https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Ubuntu%20Studio%20Installation
<ailo> holstein: ScottL: (and anyone else interested) I've done some work on a new wiki, from scratch. https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuStudio/IRC
<ailo> Some of the subpages are started, but not yet finished
<ailo> I was thinking I would redirect a lot from the old wiki here https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuStudio/HowTos
<ailo> Hopefully, installation will not change for a good while, so that page will not need to be edited once finished
<ailo> I think mainly keeping links updated, and making sure a short intro on how to use jack is release specific is enough
<ailo> For future maintenacne
<ailo> maintenance*
<ailo> holstein: Made a page about IRC. Have a look https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuStudio/IRC
<ailo> ScottL: I moved the installation page for the wiki so it would be more coherent with the rest of the wiki (everything rooting to UbuntuStudio), added a note to the original one. Here's the new one https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuStudio/InstallingUbuntuStudio
<ailo> Len-nb: holstein: I'm prepared to finish this, and publish it tomorrow (there's still some work to do here and there, particularly to include more info for non audio stuff). Tell me what is missing https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuStudio/NewWiki
<ailo> That would replace the current front page for the community wiki. And, I'd place the old page content somewhere else
<ailo> One thing I do think we should have is at least the Ubuntu Studio logo somewhere
<ailo> Something to make it prettier
<ailo> astraljava: You too
<knome> is it because i have (accidentally O:|) ignored astraljava that the previous comment didn't make any sense?
<ailo> knome: Your precious comment, or mine?
<knome> your :P
<ailo> I am not ignoring anyone. It's just that he was not apart of the discussion earlier, and that since the wiki is something that is quite general, it would be good to have everyones opinion
<knome> sure sure ;)
<ailo> I guess it would be good to have a "team" button so everyone could be noted at the same time
<knome> hrr.
<knome> well, you could add a factoid
<ailo> hmm, I missed both hockey matches today, but it seems to have gone to Finlans favor twice in one day
<ailo> knome: Just to comment on what you said earlier. I don't have any personal agenda in anything I do here and I don't find your comments either accurate or fitting for the atmosphere on this channel. If someone has a problem with me, or things I have a problem with someone else, I would prefer to be contacted privately
<knome> was just kidding. something between me and astraljava :)
<ailo> It would be nice if Finland got another goal this year. The statistics on loosing finals really needs some adjustment
<ailo> Another gold*
<knome> heh
<knome> maybe
<ailo> I guess IRC is such an informal way to discuss things. Many times, you don't know who to talk with about something, since not everyone has the time to focus on everything. But, opinions are always welcome, and in that way, I suppose the mail list is a much better forum for putting things into the open and asking for opinions
<knome> agreed
<knome> otoh, sometimes you want to move quick, and then irc is optimal
#ubuntustudio-devel 2012-05-18
<Len-nb> ailo, looks ok to me. 
<Len-nb> knome, sometimes both irc and email makes more sense. email allows long bits to be shared easy, irc is good for quick back n forth.
<ailo> Len-nb: I forget, was there a starter for installing Ubuntu Studio on the desktop, or only in the menu?
<ailo> nevermind. I need to check the something else anyway tomorrow. Will do that too
<ailo> Well, I'm pretty happy with the way it looks right now. Been sitting here for almost 12h working at this, so maybe time to something else for a while
<ailo> I've noticed that the Community Docs don't get updated in your browser until you refresh
<ailo> A little annoying
<ailo> So, if you visited any newly edited page, you probably need to update the browser to see the new version each time
<ailo> Meaning, each time it was edited
<Len-nb> ailo, Ya, that is what browser cache is all about.
<Len-nb> you go back to a page and browser goes, I've got that on disk much faster than downloading it again.
<ailo> Len-nb: The regular wiki is not like that, which is why I mention it
<ailo> Also, it may happen that some of you are visiting a page several times, and not noticing the changes
<Len-nb> ailo, the header can tell the browser how long the page is valid for. A time to live.A page that gives a past date or time always gets refreshed.
<Len-nb> I think it is called expire time or the like.
<Len-nb> I have used back when I did CGI stuff... haven't for a while.
<ailo> Len-nb: Ok, so it might be refreshed pretty soon then
<ailo> I was going to quit a while ago, but kept going. Not a lot more to do, from how I set it up
<astraljava> ailo: Okay, I'll try. I'm going to be pretty busy until Sunday, though, so you might have to publish without my proofreading.
<astraljava> ailo: Oh, and pay no attention to knome. He needs a certified mental health professional around him at all times. *blink* *blink*
<ailo> Well, I'm pretty happy now. I finished just about everything I set out to do. There are still a few things here and there that aren't perfectly finished, which I will do during the next 24h. Now I'm definately not working anymore on it for a while
<astraljava> ailo: Excellent! :) I'll read it through over the weekend. Thanks!
<ailo> I finished the audio user guide
<ailo> Tried to keep it short, but that turned out to be a little hard
<ailo> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuStudio/ProAudioIntro/1204
<ailo> scott-work: I was thinking of maybe putting myself as a candidate for something like, Documentation Lead
<len-dt> ailo, better you than me, I am finding I am too wordy... trying to do a tweaks roadmap
<ailo> After redoing the wiki (which is yet to be published), I felt like it might be good to have one person in charge of it
<ailo> I don't think the community wiki would need much work for a long time to come, other than just making sure it's tidy and up to date
<ailo> len-dt: I do try to be short to the point, and clear, but it's a little tricky, since English is not my native language. But being in charge of documentation wouldn't nessecarily mean you need to write everything yourself. Just try to keep things tidu
<ailo> tidy*
<ailo> I think there's lot's of room for more documentation
<ailo> This would be a good place to add all sorts of things https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuStudio/HowTos
<ailo> Anything from how to build your own rt kernel, to making mp3's and so on
<ailo> Most of the community wiki would just be static, and not change for years
<len-dt> ailo, the last settings page I was doing... is just started. It explains a bit about what kernel modules are, but not why they might need to be managed (meaning removed ;-)
<scott-work> ailo: i want to support you in contributing to the documentation
<scott-work> is a lack of a documentation lead preventing getting it done?
 * len-dt is lending applause
<ailo> len-dt: I'm hoping I can join in and do some testing on those subjects. Once something has been clarified, I guess a HowTwo would never hurt
<ailo> I think the state of the wiki until now has probably not helped anyway
<len-dt> ailo, see the new post on the list for more. It seems audio is outside of most "conventional" wisdom.
<len-dt> scott-work, I think someone in charge means that if someone mentions something that person might just add it to the wiki (or remove).
<len-dt> Or at least remind the mentioner that maybe they could add it.
<ailo> It would be good to have user be more interactive with the wiki
<scott-work> i hope i am not misunderstood, i would like people to commit to helping with the documentation
<ailo> And to keep it simple, the howto would be a very simple place to keep things
<scott-work> the blueprint action items i mentioned regarding documentation were commitments i was willing to meet
<ailo> scott-work: Sure, but to keep things clear and concise, I think we need someone in charge that will make sure things don't get out of date or misplaced
<scott-work> i tried not to over commit myself, but worry about it
<ailo> I feel like Documentation is already done, after I did the Wiki
<ailo> I mean, the core of it
<scott-work> ailo: where are the changes you have made?  i have not seen them yet
<ailo> scott-work: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuStudio/NewWiki
<len-dt> scott-work, it is easy to do. Still, it is good for things to be laid out so that new contributers might see a hole they can fit in.
<ailo> It's a replacement for the current front page. 
<scott-work> ailo: i think you have done some remarkable work on the documentation :)
<ailo> scott-work: The idea is that most of that page and it's links remain static, unchanged. User contributions would end up in "HowTos", and Workflows would end up under "Ubuntu Studio User Guide"
<scott-work> there are some topics that i had intended to include...like actually recording audio with ardour or audacity, making connections, using qtractor for midi...those type of "usage" items
<ailo> scott-work: Put those in "HowTos"
<scott-work> ah, i see, you would include those in the HowTos
<scott-work> okay
<len-dt> scott-work, ailo That makes very good sense.
<ailo> scott-work: Also, to use ardour, you could read a manual for it found in https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuStudio/Resources
<ailo> Under Software Manuals
<ailo> Those manuals are probably the richest in information out there
<len-dt> ailo, I think scott-work means more than just ardour.
<scott-work> ailo: i certainly don't disagree with linking to the foss manual for ardour, i think a "quick start" guide for making a connection and recroding in ardour would be helpful as well
<ailo> scott-work: I was going to include that in the User Guide I made
<scott-work> len-dt: well, yeah actually you are right, although i admit i'm focusing on ardour at the moment
<scott-work> ailo: that sounds really good, and it looks like you are doing a great job
<scott-work> that takes quite a expected load off of my shoulders for this cycle then :)
<ailo> I guess the user guide could be expanded a lot more, if there's interest in doind do
<len-dt> scott-work, yes but ardour with qtractor and jackd and other things. Sort of a complete package. not how to use ardour so much as how to use a studio.
<scott-work> i particularly like having "hooks" there for people to add stuff where it doesn't really incur our team more load
<ailo> I think there's a lot of room for specific subjects under "HowTos", while just getting to understand how to make use of applications in general is best done in the user guide
<ailo> For audio, that is
<len-dt> ailo, right.
<ailo> I guess my idea is that most of the community documentation is in fact a official documentation, with corners for users to expand on various subject
<len-dt> ailo, I think a how to might point to the user guide for each program mentioned while showing how to use two or more programs together
<ailo> I can see the point in just showing how to connect "any" program with "any" other program in the user guide
<len-dt> ailo, Ya, also what programs might go together to make a working studio.
<scott-work> ailo: len-dt: here's a good question for you - where SHOULD the documentation be;  help.ubuntu.com or ubuntustudio.org ?
<ailo> help.ubuntu.com for sure
<ailo> Oh, well
<len-dt> scott-work, as holstein says over and over ubuntustudio is ubuntu.
<holstein> :)
<ailo> I mean, I guess we could have something fancy on the main site, but that would be a bonus
<ailo> And I wouldn't mind just duplicating some things
<ailo> Well, hmm
<len-dt> ailo, links work.
<ailo> If we would keep user guides on the main site, that would probably work
<ailo> And some other stuff that wouldn't need to change a lot 
<ailo> And keep the help.ubuntu.com more for things like "howtos"
<len-dt> ailo, the ubuntustudio site can not be changed by users, the ubuntu wiki can.
<ailo> The wiki frontpage would still be the same, but some of those links would just link to the main site
<ailo> Like the userguide
<len-dt> ailo, things that should be on the US site would be things that show how the apps we ship might be used. The wiki might be more general
<ailo> The way I set it up now is that "Installing Ubuntu Studio", "Get Instant Support", "Ubuntu Studio User Guide", "FAQ", "Contributing to Ubuntu Studio", is mostly static, and shouldn't be changed too much
<ailo> So, all of those could be moved to the main site
<ailo> But, some links under the FAQ section would still link to the Wiki
<ailo> Well, maybe other stuff too
<len-dt> ailo, as much as possible ;-)
<ailo> But not so much for the first three items I mentioned
<ailo> Cause they would probably be best kept fully static
<len-dt> ailo, At leas for any one release
<len-dt> corrections only.
<ailo> The user guide nees to be release specific
<ailo> If not different pages, then at least have sections where releases might differ
<ailo> It all depends on what changes really
<len-dt> ailo, for at least the latest LTS and latest release.
<ailo> Yeah
<len-dt> release minus could be archived
<len-dt> s/minus/minus 1/
<len-dt> but I think that is down the road right now as we have nothing to archive from 11.10 ;-)
<ailo> For now, I'm just happy we have an up to date wiki
<ailo> So, whatever we do with the main site, we could just start doing now, and then decide if it works or not
<len-dt> When are you moving it main?
<ailo> I could do it now. Just wanted to have some opinions on that first
<ailo> scott-work: So, with your ok, I'll gladly publish the new wiki, and make it public on the mail list
<len-dt> mine is do it now
<len-dt> There seems to be a comment on #ubuntustudio atr least once a day asking if US is still going or telling us how out of date the website is.
<scott-work> ailo: len-dt:  i agree with holstein, i think most users don't even know about h.u.c and think ubuntustudio.org IS ubuntustudio
<scott-work> i'm not sure that users not being able to update the documentation is really a downer, they have access right now and not much is currently changing in h.u.c :/
<scott-work> the only updating being done currently is by those associated with the team (ttoine, ailo, me, holstein)
<scott-work> i would be nervous about having the same information in two places, at some point it will fall out of sync
<ailo> I don't think individual users will want to change the core of the documentation anyway. I think they expect to have something official, but if we make it clear that *put anything you want here* in *HowTos*, we might get more activity there
<scott-work> ailo: i think publishing what we have is a good thing for now, it shows progress
<scott-work> ailo: we can always migrate stuff to where we want it later
<len-dt> scott-work, yes but part of that is the way the wiki is laid out. when a user is not logged in the page is set to "unmutable"
<len-dt> it makes it seem that page can not be changed.
<ailo> I could add some text in HowTos saying, create an account and start adding if you want.. 
<len-dt> ailo, Good idea.
<ailo> I already mention that in the introduction
<ailo> Ok, I changed the front page now. The old wiki is saved here https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Deprecated%20Ubuntu%20Studio%20Pages
<ailo> scott-work: Yeah, I don't think we should have the same exact content on both wiki and the main site. I reconsidered later, thinking that if we do put something up on the main site, we remove it from the wiki, and just keep the link, but no linking to the main site instead
<ailo> Also, we don't need to change the wiki until we've added something to the main site
<ailo> So, there's no real hurry with that
<len-dt> Ok, so the new page is not https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio but https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuStudio
<ailo> So, I think we should try to finish what needs to be done on the main site, so we can publish it. And only after, think about replacing stuff
<len-dt> ailo, just checking how easy it was to find from googling ubuntustudio and selecting wiki.
<ailo> len-dt: http://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuStudio is the community documentation wiki, while I guess the other is more tuned towards development
<scott-work> len-dt: ailo:  aye
<len-dt> I'm just thinking maybe it needs to standout more on the https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio page.
<len-dt> Like maybe before screen shots.
<scott-work> a simple way to parse them is to consider that help.ubuntu.com is user facing and helps to USE ubuntustudio while wiki.ubuntu.com is more contributor facing and helps in ubuntustudio DEVELOPMENT
<scott-work> as we discussed, the website may replace help.ubuntu.com however
<len-dt> The news item should be on the US page anyway.
<scott-work> ailo and len-dt: if i created a blueprint this weekend, would the one (or both) help to give it actionable item and possibly one of you head it up to make sure progress is made throughout this cycle?
<scott-work> ach, "if i created an 'improve the OOTB performance' blueprint"
<len-dt> scott-work, I think we are. But I should have at least a list of things the user could do to help themselves. I would also like to see a setup utility and a mode utility.
<scott-work> len-dt: keep in mind this is to help guide and track our development for just this cycle
<len-dt> This list will be US specific. Taking some of the things from http://wiki.linuxmusicians.com/doku.php?id=system_configuration and others. tweaked to make them work for us.
<scott-work> don't worry about what users could do to help themselves necessarily, unless you mean to make an action to document it or send an email to the list
<scott-work> ailo: have you tried to log in to the staging website?
<scott-work> all the work you are currently doing might be put there
<ailo> scott-work: I haven't tried loggin in yet
<scott-work> len-dt: if you wanted to work on the wiki.linuxmusicians.com stuff you might roll that into actionable items such as "research the website and make a list of what might work for us", "test items and document results", "make suggestion to incorporate", "agree on final changes" and "make changes"
<scott-work> the whole point of the blueprints is to have definitive actions that provide results
<ailo> I haven't seen the blueprint yet, but I'm dedicated to helping len-dt with testing and documentation on that subject
<len-dt> scott-work, a number of tweaks are machine specific, the idea being that most of the time a user should not have to do anything, but if they have a problem these are some tips to start.
<scott-work> len-dt:  that is not applicable to the blueprints though
<ailo> scott-work: How do I log in into the staging site?
<scott-work> ailo: hold on a minute...
<scott-work> len-dt: am i misunderstanding your comments?  it seems to me that you might be confusing what goes into the blueprints
<len-dt> scott-work, I realize that the BP is a quick sketch of things. My problem with it so far is that I tend to want to put too much into it...
<len-dt> I had the idea though that you were saying if we found somethings that helped we would change the settings of  or on the DVD.
<scott-work> keep the items categorical then
<scott-work> len-dt: that is true, if we found things that would improve the user experience we should explore that
<scott-work> s/that/them
<scott-work> but to fit that into a blueprint is to say
<scott-work> [len] research linuxmusicians wiki for ways to improve OOTB
<ailo> In my mind it would be enough just to say, explore system tweak options. And perhaps use two subcategories - untweakable, and tweakable, where the tweakable settings will need some kind of a control application
<scott-work> [len] test wiki items
<ailo> And the control application could just be a script
<scott-work> ...
<scott-work> you would be identifying and documentating the steps you would take
<len-dt> scott-work, we have to be careful that any audio tweaks we do to the DVD do not make the system worse for the graphic artist.
<scott-work> that woudl be another line items
<scott-work> the blueprint is a checklist or steps used to accomplish the goal (whatever the goal is)
<scott-work> reference the old blueprints
<len-dt> scott-work, ok.
<scott-work> https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/topic-precise-flavor-ubuntu-studio
<scott-work> this is just a "header" blueprint, the bottom of the page shows the others which you can click on to see them
<len-dt> scott-work, to be perfectly honest my mind doesn't work the way BP do I tend to be much more focused. This is a (good) stretch for me.
<scott-work> again, this is high level actions (a series of steps) you will use to accomplish something 
<scott-work> len-dt: hehe, get what you can in there and i'll look over it and help where i can
<len-dt> No worries, I get it
<len-dt> anyway I have some things to do (make bread dough for tomorrow). Will talk later.
<scott-work> i need to go as well and pick up son on the way home
<ailo> It's so typical me to post an announcement, and mispell it
#ubuntustudio-devel 2012-05-19
<Len-nb> ScottL doesn't seem to be around much these days... I think he lost one of his computers. Should someone notice him here, please mention he has email at his gmail account.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2012-05-20
<astraljava> Len-nb: I believe he still reads his email, but yeah most likely he's on here as well, when he's online and capable of reading the mail.
<Len-nb> astraljava, He asked me to do a blueprint for tweaks... not sure if I am going in the right direction.
<Len-nb> In sent him a copy as I think it is due monday?
<Len-nb> Maybe we missed.
<Len-nb> He said something about his laptop not working anymore
<len-dt> ailo, astraljava there is a new qjackctl 0.3.9 I wonder if  that will make it to ubuntu repos for 12.10
<ailo> len-dt: It should. Usually, the very latest Debian packages do
<len-dt> The fixes talk about dbus issues.
<len-dt> I hope that fixes the unable to stop problem.
<ailo> Would be good to backport it to the LTS, if possible
<ailo> That's about the only thing that bothers me right now
<ailo> I've so far ignored the blueprints conciously, but I guess it's time to get my head around that
<len-dt> Do you want a copy of what I did?
<ailo> len-dt: Sure
<len-dt> where?
<ailo> You can email me if you want ailomaa@warpmail.net
<len-dt> Should be there. It says Scott as I just re-edited the one I sent him.
<ailo> len-dt: Looks good to me. About what I had in mind when I thought about those things
<len-dt> ailo, this is a long weekend here, is it in the US too? or do you know? Does Scott have to put it in place or can we do that?
<len-dt> It has to be approved by someone at ubuntu I guess
<len-dt> Scott told me who but I forget.
<ailo> len-dt: Any thoughts on the settings application? Language, design? I would love to do a remake of ubuntustudio-controls. I don't know about US. We already had some days off before the weekend in Sweden
<ailo> len-dt: Kate Stewart at Ubuntu
<len-dt> For me, tcltk is what I know. I have already started working in that.
<micahg> ailo: +1 on qjackctl backport to precise, just use requestbackport from ubuntu-dev-tools to request it once it's in quantal
<ailo> micahg: Will do
<ailo> len-dt: I've already had one pass working with Python and GTK, but it would need to be planned well
<ailo> astraljava: How are your codings skills? Python? GKT?
<len-dt> ailo, the workflow thing and the config thing can be separate anyway.
<ailo> I think they should, even
<ailo> len-dt: Since you know tcl/tk, you'd probably have fun with puredata
<len-dt> Workflow runs all the time and should be small for that reason. The config even for it shold be separated.
<len-dt> For me the thing is having a use for PD.
<ailo> Takes a little while getting used to, but once you do, you master it in notime
<len-dt> I am doing mostly live music on a bass... so I am mic oriented.
<len-dt> ailo, I figured that.
<ailo> It's perfect for making ridiculous effects
<len-dt> ailo,  I am going to do make a wrapper for telinit for setting RL 3 to 5
<len-dt> I figured that out listening to some of the things you are doing with it
<len-dt> I have put some flanging on the bass, but mostly run it dry. It gets muddy real quick on the low end with effects.
<ailo> len-dt: Yeah, filtering is probably a good idea, and making sure those effects that make the low end muddy, only mix with the high end
<len-dt> ailo, It is real easy to get into audio changes, but there are some things that work for audio that could be a real pain for graphics.
<len-dt> My flanger just does the high end... made for bass box.
<ailo> len-dt: I just looked up the release schedule for https://wiki.ubuntu.com/QuantalQuetzal/ReleaseSchedule
<ailo> If I understand correctly, blueprints should be done by 31st?
<ailo> And Debian packages are imported until June 21th 
<len-dt> That is what it looks like, but I think they have to be "vetted" before then.
<ailo> I suppose any applications should be done by August 23rd (all though, I've gotten the picture that isn't a 100% must)
<ailo> 3 months to finish the settings application, in other words
<len-dt> So Scott has to OK and then Kate Stewart? So we have to have them finished before then so we have time to make changes before may31st
<ailo> len-dt: I don't know what the deal is between them
<ailo> len-dt: I'm pretty positive I could do a new version of ubuntustudio-controls in 3 months time
<len-dt> ailo, for a wrapper for telinit, could I safely do that with a script?
<ailo> Adding whatever settings you would like
<ailo> The last version of -controls I did used scripts quite extensively, because that was the only way I knew how to do things in gksudo mode
<ailo> So, that will work, no problem
<ailo> I can always rewrite it in python also, if possible
<len-dt> Ok, I will do a bash script then. I would like to stay away from having to have a source package...
<ailo> I guess we should not think too much about implementation, until we know what we want to implement in the first place
<ailo> Just use scripts, or do things manually (document it)
<len-dt> I need it for my own system. So I will make it for that much at least.
<len-dt> ailo, I have found that the PA-jackd bridge is a lot less of a problem when I take care of everything else. I will probably still disable it on my system when doing lowlatency though.
<ailo> len-dt: Maybe you could put in the blueprints that a new version of ubuntustudio-controls will be the settings application then?
<len-dt> for my system, I would be fine just using telinit with pkexec, but the wrapper makes things look a little more secure.... and really I don't want complaints of a lost session setup because someone accidentally switched themselves to RL1
<ailo> It will depend on having any settings to make, so if we don't want to tweak anything, we won't need the -controls application
<len-dt> For audio swappiness is needed for sure. Still graphics people may be less happy with it set to 0.
<len-dt> ailo, we are trying to have a multiuse system, we have to think about all the uses.
<len-dt> That is why being able to switch between a few presets is important to me.
<ailo> len-dt: I have a hard time thinking that far ahead right now, since I don't really know what the things you are suggesting will actually change. But, once we can test it, and document that effects, we can decide whether it is worth while, or if it should be tweakable. And when we implement it to the application, we make sure the user understands exactly what happens
<len-dt> But those presets have to be user configurable. So the controls app will need to be able to do more than one set of settings.
<len-dt> Ya, that is true too.
<len-dt> ailo, have you played with swappiness at all?
<ailo> Nope
<ailo> But I will gladly test everything a bit further ahead. And help putting things down on the wiki
<ailo> I would like to set up all my machines for testing. Been having some issues with my routers. I'd like to be able to control them all from one client
<len-dt> I have it set to 60 (stock) on one machine and 10 on the other. The one with 10 is the slower machine, but runs better.
<len-dt> Sounds like fun. I used to use a control panel on an NT box to control stuff on a DEC box.
<len-dt> Very ugly, the NT box would FTP a zero length file to the dec where the filename was the command.
<ailo> The older machines are so noisy too, and it's such a hassle operating all of them, one by one. Better to just shove them in a basement room, and connect them to the network
<ailo> I was able to get network installation going for those machines that do not support usb stick installation, but alas, one of them didn't have netork device that supported it (but there's another method, using a CD to boot, and then the usb stick)
<ailo> I'd like to never have to use a CD again, if possible
<ailo> There's also the possibility to install from hard disk
<len-dt> You could use a floppy ;-)
<ailo> Yeah. I have a couple of drives, and probably some floppys laying around. That would be nostalgic indeed
<len-dt> To install for the hard drive there has to be a working system on it
<len-dt> s/for/from
<ailo> Well, there's always some CD with grub on it I could use
<len-dt> The problem with floppies is that once they get to be old they read ok, but often don't write to well.
<ailo> Or, you make the partition bootable, but only for installation
<len-dt> I was thinking about a fresh drive.
<ailo> I just need an easy way to get the installation medium to boot. The network booting was really nice, but again, one machine is special
<ailo> Time to eat. Went running earlier. Need some kalories
<len-dt> bye.
<len-dt> ailo, when ever you read it... the wrapper for telinit works.
<astraljava> ailo: I've been doing both at work. What do you have in mind?
<ailo> astraljava: We might need a new ubuntustudio-controls written from scratch. I'm willing to code it, but maybe you would like to participate in that? 
<ailo> len-dt is preparing a blueprint for testing system settings, of which some might be best placed as tweakable options in the -controls application
<ailo> And there's been some ideas for it in the past, that could be added as well
<astraljava> ailo: I would indeed.
<ailo> astraljava: Let's see after the blueprints are done, if we can put together some kind of plan for it then. I think we need to set up some testing, and document it on the wiki first before we have a good idea of what we need/want to do
<astraljava> ailo: Yeah, I've been meaning to get into the QA process development, for both Xubuntu and Studio. But the start of this cycle has been really hard thus far. Let's see if I can improve on that today.
<astraljava> Testing automation could be implemented for that as well, so I'm going to see what is already available, and what needs to be created.
<ailo> Think I'm going to get Harrison mixbus + linux dsp effects. Going to be mixing an album during the summer, and this will be the first time doing that with Linux. Feels like it might be worth it
<ailo> I guess Ardour gets a piece of the pie, with Mixbus, since they are advertising for it on the home page
<ailo> Will be interesting to see what mixbus will be like on A3
<astraljava> Oh cool. I have so much to learn about that stuff. For many years I've been constructing the distro, but haven't actually used the stuff we provide at all. :)
<ailo> Same here, really, when it comes to Linux. But that's mostly because I don't use that software at home so much. Only on other peoples computers, and they usually don't use Linux
<astraljava> Yeah.
<ailo> I've only done some small work here and there, and there are a lot of areas where you might quickly get issues with the Linux provided software
<ailo> midi can be flakey for instance
<ailo> Mixbus would probably make things a little less painful, and also, I've never actually paid for any audio software before. Feels different buying it for Linux 
<ailo> Costs next to nothing too
<astraljava> That's true. :) I have problems getting into it even on Macs. :)
<len-dt> ailo, astraljava swappiness seems to make a big difference for audio.
<len-dt> On the netbook, it is the difference between useable or not.
<astraljava> len-dt: Good to know. Do you think you could document your findings somewhere, unless it can be already found?
<len-dt> I would say set swappiness 0. But, I am wondering what that would do to performance for graphics work.
<len-dt> That is does this need to be switchable.
<len-dt> astraljava, there seems to be enough documentation that it helps audio. But I don't want it to be a problem for other uses.
<len-dt> on the other hand, zram would be good for the normal desktop experience and may be really good for graphics but not for audio.
<len-dt> Just started going through the messages on LAU mail list. There seems to be a number of people who feel jammin is dead or at least less than useful for mastering.
<len-dt> In fact there are some people who feel it has "bad" audio artifacts even when the filtering  is set flat.
<len-dt> Is there any way we can test this?
<astraljava> I have no idea to be honest.
<len-dt> Is there frequency analizer SW for linux?
<len-dt> astraljava, This is remembering That the person doing mastering should probably not be the same person/room/sound gear that did the mixdown anyway.
<astraljava> len-dt: Yeah that's for sure.
<len-dt> ailo,  doing testing on the netbook in tweaked mode. That is cron and friends off, ath9k removed, CPU set full speed, and PA-jack bridge off. I had about 8 hours of zero xruns at the lowest latency I could get jack to start at (128)
<len-dt> Then I had two instances of 2 or 3 seconds of xruns about an hour apart. 
<len-dt> I went through the log files and found nothing happening at that point... in fact nothing for many hours before then... cron off makes for a quiet log file.
<len-dt> The only thing I can think of is it looks about the time I touched something to stop the screen saver.
<len-dt> However, I don't think it is the screen saver because I had done that lots of time during the time with no xruns.
<len-dt> I am thinking the OS actually swapped out something and I by stopping the screen saver required it to be reloaded to ram.
<len-dt> Swappiness is set to 10 right now. I will try the same thing with it set to 0 and see if the problem comes back.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2013-05-13
<zequence> len_1304: I don't think I have the time or energy to set up anything for UDS. Seems like there are so few of us, and I was more considering it a PR possibility more than actually getting work done
<zequence> Good thing is there'll be another one in just 3 months, so I'll focus on that one instead
<zequence> Tuesday is first day
<zequence> len_1304: Have a look at the sessions, and see if there is something that interests you http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-1305/
<zequence> If nothing else, Xubuntu sessions, or community sessions
<zequence> Besides, they still haven't corrected the bug which makes it seem like I'm already logged in, when I'm not.
<zequence> And, thinking of that. I still haven't got my music I bought through Ubuntu One some months ago
<Len-nb> zequence, may I assume the toolkit of choice is QT for ubuntu development?
<Len-nb> (just looking at the schedules you pointed at :)
<zequence> Len-nb: I suppose so, at least what Unity is concerned, and the phone in particular
<Len-nb> Ya, lots of mobile talk.
<Len-nb> lots of one size fits all. kind of like the adjustable wrench or vicegrips... 
<Len-nb> xubuntu has at least 3 sessions I have found so far
<zequence> busy people
<Len-nb> All one person actually
<Len-nb> I have seen the word "touch" about 10 times too many  :)
<zequence> hehe
<Len-nb> not because it shouldn't be there... just doesn't work with my focus
<zequence> Well, it'll be interesting to see how the phone fares. I will be getting one as soons as I'm able, and hope to be able to customize it
<Len-nb> not a phone for me, a small tablet might be nice though
<zequence> Some Windows programmer made some statements, and then took them back http://www.osnews.com/story/27023/Windows_slower_than_other_operating_systems_
<zequence> 05:33 < zequence> Well, it'll be interesting to see how the phone fares. I will be getting one as soons as I'm able, and hope to be able to customize it
<zequence> Damn, middle mouse button
<Len-nb> Windows is slow? this news? Win 7 that came on my netbook made it run like a 386 with win 3.1  :P
<zequence> I'm sure the Linux kernel is doing some things that the Windows kernel can't but one thing we can't do is get low latency with a generic kernel
<zequence> Luckily we can just build differente versions, but still, would be nice if the same kernel could change modes depending on needs, or requests from the applications
<zequence> From what I was told, the kernel would need to be redesigned for that to happen, but I'm not the one to judge what is really required for that
<zequence> Actually, how hard would it really be to make some introductionary videos and put them up on youtube? Just show how you start jack, and stuff like that. Shouldn't take more than a couple of days to shoot some stuff, and add text to it. Then upload
<zequence> Think I'll do that some day
<zequence> Then fix a page for that on our website
<Len-nb> zequence, with a generic kernel, I can tell it to not use a CPU core on startup. I can then use a utility to run user code on that core. That sounds like low latency to me... if I have 8 cores and only allow the OS to use one, I have 7 RT cores.
<Len-nb> Must be a hole in that somewhere...
<Len-nb> Still has to interact with the OS for system resources.
<Len-nb> So a low latency kernel could work though.
<zequence> What I mean is the generic kernel doesn't do preempt very well
<zequence> While the windows kernel is more dynamic when it comes to that
<zequence> The same kernel can be used for low power usage, and low latency audio
<zequence> without doing any configuration
<zequence> or reboots
<Len-nb> the app has to ask for it.
<zequence> Yes, that's how it works on the windows kernel
<zequence> And, it would be nice if the same thing was true on generic
<micahg> windows kernel is also a behemoth AIUI
<Len-nb> It tries to be everything to everyone.
<zequence> Well, if that was true, it would run on all kinds of arches, from supercomputers to cell phones ;)
<Len-nb> It may have changed, but it seems to me it is a single user OS with multi user patched on top.
<zequence> Linux is everything to everyone, but needs to be built specifically for different use cases, and that of course make sense, if you're only going to be using it for one thing
<zequence> The desktop is quite a broad use case
<Len-nb> hp/ntfs is also single user at it's core
<zequence> gotta run. time to go to school
<Len-nb> Enjoy, bye
<zequence> thanks :) bye
<smartboyhw> Good afternoon Ubuntu Studio people.
<smartboyhw> zequence: For kdenlive, I think we have the merge item on TODO. Let me check.
<smartboyhw> We = Kubuntu
<smartboyhw> Damn there isn't let me add one.
<DarkEra> hi all :)
<smartboyhw_> Hello DarkEra:)
<DarkEra> heya smartboyhw_  how are you doing?
<smartboyhw_> DarkEra: Good
<DarkEra> :)
<DarkEra> bbl again, shopping time
<Len-nb> The blurb on "Image based updates" Is, I hope, miss-worded.
<Len-nb> When it says opt out, I hope that means for certain use types (phones tablets) but not desktops/laptops.
<Len-nb> I think for any machine that has added/removed SW, the apt update method should remain default.
<JTa>  /nick JTa_aFk
<Len-nb> chromium as default browser?
<DarkEra> Len-nb, in ubuntu studio?
<Len-nb> In ubuntu base or core
<Len-nb> I don't think we add fire fox, I think we adopt it from the core.
<DarkEra> chromium as default would be great since i always install that one. 
<Len-nb> Nope it is in our seeds.
<Len-nb> So I guess we can decide what we want
<Len-nb> I have a long standing bug with FF where it gets local dates wrong in some JS files.
<Len-nb> anyway, chromium may just show up at some time...
<Len-nb> It looks like Unity is planning to launch all its apps using upstart.
<Len-nb> I wonder how that works with non-dbus apps or if there is a wrapper.
 * Len-nb might be able to catch some of the last session on one of the days of UDS...
#ubuntustudio-devel 2013-05-14
<micahg> I'd advise against Chromium by default until the security support is properly worked out
<micahg> Len-nb: I've seen a similar bug fixed already, do you have an Ubuntu bug filed with reproducer?
<Len-nb> micahg, Bug? I am wondering If I mentioned a bug. I was reading the notes on the UDS schedule and commenting about some things. One of the things was that of replacing FF with chromium in vanilla
<Len-nb> if I'm not mistaken
<micahg> [17:57] <Len-nb> I have a long standing bug with FF where it gets local dates wrong in some JS files.
<micahg> oh, ubuntu's planning the replacement, we'll considering they still can't get Chromium updates out in a reasonable time frame, they have the same hurdle they had 3 years ago when the same thing was proposed
<micahg> s/we'll/well/
<kubotu> micahg meant: "oh, ubuntu's planning the replacement, well considering they still can't get Chromium updates out in a reasonable time frame, they have the same hurdle they had 3 years ago when the same thing was proposed"
<Len-nb> Ah, that one. I can check if it is still there. I am not as active in the forum that it showed in as I was.
<Len-nb> If the FF bug was fixed in the 13.04 iso plus updates then it is still there
<Len-nb> In all other browsers the dates are correct, but in FF the year is right, but the month is the year and the day is the month.
<Len-nb> this seems to be a java script problem of some sort.
<Len-nb> They try to take their system time and correct to mine with a bit of JS
<Len-nb> I am assuming they don't convert the year.
 * Len-nb wanders off to eat
<micahg> Len-nb: ISTR discussing this with you or someone else before
<zequence> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WZiFZ49owK4
<zequence> Someone does a video review on 13.04 Beta 1
<zequence> That guy clearly doesn't do audio much
<zequence> He tries to open a jack app, which requires jack to be running in order for it to open
<zequence> ..which, one would expect to work even so
<zequence> At least, one would expect to get a error message about jack not running
<zequence> A new user simply makes the conclusing that this app isn't working
<zequence> That's something we could try implement upstream actually
<zequence> Or, try to get people to implement upstream, unless someone of us would like to add some code themselves :)
<zequence> I added a workitem for it. At the very least, we could add wrapper scripts for those applications
<zequence> btw, Youtube autogenerates channels for popular topics, such as Ubuntu Studio http://www.youtube.com/channel/HCkGK6Zv5-b0I
<zequence> We really should start a channel ourselves
<micahg> Len-nb: settings uploaded
<Len-nb> micahg, thankyou
<DarkEra> o/
<smartboyhw> Hi DarkEra
<DarkEra> heya smartboyhw :)
<smartboyhw_> len-1304: Len-nb: zequence: We might want Chromium as our default browser, there is going to be a UDS session about it.
<smartboyhw_> Hey ttoine!
<ttoine> hello
<ttoine> what's up ?
<len-1304> smartboyhw_, micah says chromium is not ready anyway.
<smartboyhw_> len-1304: OK
<smartboyhw_> ttoine: How's the merchandise going on?
<ttoine> waiting for the artwork, actualy
<smartboyhw_> ttoine: Oh.
<DarkEra> Doh... laptop not showing grub scared the hell out of me, just a blinking cursor.... until i noticed i forgot to power off the external hard drive.... ---> Fail
<DarkEra> heya zequence 
<zequence> DarkEra: Hi
<DarkEra> how are you doing buddy?
<zequence> DarkEra: Are you following the UDS at all? I'm finding very few subjects that I want to get involved in myself
<zequence> Todays schedule http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-1305/2013-05-14/
<DarkEra> actually i didn't have time to look at that, thanks for the link
<DarkEra> zequence, has it started already?
<zequence> DarkEra: Yes. It'll be on until 20:00 UTC this day, and then Wed and Thursday as well, each beginning from around 16.00 UTC, I think
<zequence> DarkEra: Overview http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-1305/
<zequence> DarkEra: Right now, about QA http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-1305/meeting/21714/community-s-quality-coverage/
<DarkEra> confusing.. oh well, maybe better tomorrow
<zequence> DarkEra: There's a break now, actually
<zequence> I didn't realize that session had already ended
<zequence> DarkEra: This might be interesting to you http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-1305/meeting/21716/community-s-quality-userstory/
<zequence> Starts in a few minutes
<DarkEra> yeah, i noticed Lunch somewhere in the schedule :D
<DarkEra> ok i'll keep a eye on it.
<DarkEra> was interesting to follow, maybe next time, when i gained some more experience and know my way around, i might jump in.
<Len-nb> zequence, there was something on kernels... something about the next version having a new "hw stack". IDK how that would affect us.
<Len-nb> UDS is all during my work schedule. So I won't get any of it.
<zequence> Len-nb: The videos are up so, it's possible to see them afterwards. And, I guess interaction can be done later on mail lists or wherever, on IRC
<zequence> I mean, the videos are recorded, and you can still see them after broadcast
<zequence> Len-nb: I missed the notion on new hw stack
<Len-nb> I am guessing the the changes in the kernel are from upstream anyway. I wonder how these things will affect audio
<Len-nb> That was about the only thing I saw that might affect us
<zequence> Probably more targeted towards video, because of the move to MIR, if I would take a guess
<zequence> but, I suppose it would be good to find out
<Len-nb> Ubuntu tends to use pretty close to stock kernels I think, so if the way HW is done is changed I would think it would be from upstream.
<Len-nb> Xorg is headed some new ways as well.
<zequence> A bit OT, but valve is releasing all its games for the Linux steam client, bit by bit. I'm not seeing a massive move towards Linux in the game world yet, but it feels like a big deal the way Valve/Steam is targetting Linux right now
<zequence> That's absolutely a big game changer for a lot of the main stream user base, who often keep Windows only for the sake of gaming
<zequence> Would be cool if the audio world could see a change like that too
<zequence> Not that I'm for proprietary software, but if you can get one foot in, it's easier to get the other one in as well
<zequence> If Pro Tools were supporting Linux, and some other major applications, the free software would also get more focus
<zequence> And the free technologies
#ubuntustudio-devel 2013-05-15
<len-1304> zequence, we may be looking at a new version of xfce (8.12) for 13.10... before the scheduled alpha2.
<len-1304> Sorry thats 4.12
 * len-1304 must have been thinking of TK versions or something.
<len-1304> Lumpy, how are you?
<zequence> Len-nb: Plenty of version numbers to keep track of :)
<len-1304> zequence,  Ya, I just hope none of the changes mess up my menu work to much.
<ttoine> zequence, ping
<zequence> ttoine: Hi. Long time no see. How are you man?
<zequence> ttoine: Something I've forgotten to ask you by mail. Do you know who created the Ubuntu Studio version of the COF?
<ttoine> the COF ???
<ttoine> zequence, what is that ?
<smartboyhw> ttoine: Centre of Friends
<smartboyhw> our logo
<zequence> Circle of Friends
<ttoine> and would you have news from the artwork for the merchandising  ?
<smartboyhw> Damn
<smartboyhw> ttoine: Ask madeinkobaiaâ¦
<ttoine> maybe it was cory but I am not sure
<smartboyhw> He isn't here todayâ¦
<ttoine> smartboyhw, yes, yerterday neither
<smartboyhw> ttoine: Email?
<zequence> ttoine: I haven't seen any new stuff from madeinkobaia, but he has been busy with other things for a while. He's responsible for the artwork, but of course, I will want to see the results before anything is finally decided
<zequence> ttoine: I suppose it would be nice to get it started, and just get one or two products out. Then one can always add to that. I can ask madeinkobaia about that, then email you when we have something
<DarkEra> hi guys
<smartboyhw> Good night guys:P
<DarkEra> sleep well smartboyhw :)
<zequence> madeinkobaia made a first quick version for a t-shirt a few weeks ago http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~ubuntustudio-art/ubuntustudio-resources/art/view/head:/ON-AIR/ubuntu-studio_webshop-layout_and_t-shirt_01_WIP_madeinkobaia.png
<zequence> I suggested he add the slogan to the back "Linux for Creative Humans"
<zequence> I think that would be a nice first t-shirt release. We could make a few different colors. At least white and black
<zequence> But, then, I was thinking about a possible coffee mug, so if one would use white background, and the same artwork as on the t-shirt, then one side could be the CoF and the text "Ubuntu Studio", while the other would say "Linux for Creative Humans"
<zequence> But, then I thought, maybe it could say something funny instead
<zequence> like, "Coffee for Creative Humans"
<zequence> any ideas?
<DarkEra> ah yes, i know that one and remember you asked him to add that slogan
<DarkEra> white and black would be ok to start with
<DarkEra> "coffee for Creative Humans" sounds great to me
<zequence> I've been polishing our website today. The info I had put on checksums on the download page was not great, so I updated that
<zequence> Also, edited some text here and there, and changed the name for a page. I'm kind of preparing for a slight makeover for the 14.04 release
<zequence> We'll have new artwork, and I'll want to update some things like how text is displayed
<zequence> I've been preparing a youtube channel for us
<zequence> Would be nice if we could get some tutorials set up for that. Just some short videos showing simple things, with text explaining what is happening
<DarkEra> cool stuff! you've been very busy i must say. awesome
<DarkEra> tutorials sounds great too and is a must have
<DarkEra> i've been trying to follow some tutorials from others who explain ardour 2 for example
<DarkEra> just had a look at the site that you updated, much better that way
<ttoine> zequence, ok
<DarkEra> hi ttoine :)
<ttoine> hi DarkEra 
<zequence> ttoine: I sent him mail about it. Maybe we can wrap this up in a week or two. I'll let you know
<ttoine> ok, thanks
<ttoine> zequence, I will be at Solution Linux in Paris at the end of May. You know if someone from the our community will be there too ?
<zequence> ttoine: hmm, don't think so. Let me look that up..
<zequence> ttoine: Looks fun :)
<ttoine> I will be there for work, but if there is a way to meet some people in real life
<zequence> Ah, cool
<DarkEra> brb, reboot
<zequence> finally working on patching pulseaudio. Let's see if it builds
<zequence> DarkEra: I'm going to see about setting up a gnome desktop meta
<zequence> I should have something ready by today which can be uploaded and built in a PPA
<DarkEra> zequence: ok. Anything else i could do? I'm going to look at debian/conf again in a few anyway
<DarkEra> i had too much going on last week so i need to catch up and back into it
<DarkEra> hold on brb, switching to the laptop
<zequence> DarkEra: I think once the code is in place, what you can do is just start using the resulting package, and then look at what packages could be removed, or added.
<zequence> I mean, use the meta package for the desktop, and see if you want to remove or add any packages in it
<DarkEra> so installing it on gnome that is?
<DarkEra> i hope the two go to bed soon so i can concentrate myself a bit more. It's hectic i tell ya... lol
<zequence> DarkEra: Set up a virtual box install of ubuntu minimal, using the netinstall. Make a snapshot, so you can roll back to that. Then, once the meta for the desktop is up in a PPA, just add it and install the desktop
<zequence> I think that should be the easiest method of trying stuff out
<zequence> 32bit http://archive.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/dists/saucy/main/installer-i386/current/images/netboot/mini.iso
<zequence> amd64 http://archive.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/dists/saucy/main/installer-amd64/current/images/netboot/mini.iso
<DarkEra> ok, i'll do that when the kids are gone to bed. Everything can be done from the dev setup i have i assume
<DarkEra> downloading the images now
<zequence> DarkEra: Yeah, you don't need to install anything else but virtualbox
<DarkEra> ok cool :)
<zequence> DarkEra: I have the meta in queue for building at my testing ppa, ppa:zequence/testing
<zequence> Hasn't started yet, and there's no telling how long that may take
<zequence> Could be a long wait
<zequence> once I'm more comfortable with these packages, I'll set them up to autobuild once a day in a ubuntustudio-dev ppa
<DarkEra> zequence, ok, thanks for letting know. By the way, i'll be back in 10 or 20 min, then i want to set up the VB. Should 15GB of space be enough for one setup?
<DarkEra> also i hope wifi does the job while doing the netinstall
<zequence> Virtualbox doesn't control your wifi, it just connects to it like an application (a virtual network card), so no problems there
<zequence> 15GB sounds like more than enough
<DarkEra> ok, thanks :)
<DarkEra> ok, i'm back
<DarkEra> zequence, should 512MB RAM be enough or should i take some more
<zequence> DarkEra: Depends a bit on how much you have to spare
<zequence> 1GB would be a lot better
<DarkEra> i have 3GB on this laptop
<zequence> 1GB then
<DarkEra> ok
<zequence> Just makes it difficult to run lots of apps at the same time, while running VB
<len-1304> DarkEra, lots of machines only have 1G so that is enough.
<zequence> not sure I like recent G+ changes
<DarkEra> thanks guys
<DarkEra> expect a lot of questions :)
<DarkEra> VDI is the one i should take i guess
<zequence> DarkEra: The default, with expanding HD space is good
<zequence> That means, if the initial install is 4GB, the virtual hard disk will only be 4GB
<zequence> The limit is just a maximum limit
<zequence> DarkEra: Another thing I would adjust later is Graphic card memory size
<zequence> It's usually very low
<zequence> You don't need much, but might be good to increase it a little bit
<DarkEra> ok
<DarkEra> default video memory size is 12MB, 32 would do?
<DarkEra> and i see extended features for 3D and 2D video acceleration
<zequence> Increasing to 32 should be alright
<DarkEra> ok, i set it to that
<DarkEra> 3D and 2D needed?
<zequence> Just leave them be
<zequence> Don't think 3d is supported fully anyway
<zequence> Once you've installed a ubuntu-minimal, meaning no desktop, just the basic tools, then use VB to take snapshot of it (haven't actually tried this myself yet - but should create a point in time to which you can return/revert later
<DarkEra> Gonna take the 32bit iso first then and try to set that up. meaning CLI install only
<zequence> Yep
<DarkEra> holy crap, just logged into G+... now i know what you mean because i didn't see it before 
<zequence> Very much phone and tablet orientated
<DarkEra> yep
<zequence> Must be busy days on the build servers. No packages building yet, so will have to wait until tomorrow
<DarkEra> no problem, i just finished the 32bit cli install
<DarkEra> so i'm going to set up the 64bit now
<zequence> DarkEra: You don't absolutely need both, only if you want to
<zequence> More a question on who much HD space you have
<DarkEra> zequence, the dev partition i created is 74GB, on another 74GB partition i run Ubuntu Gnome and the 169GB partition i use for Ubuntu Studio 13.04 as my studio workstation
<zequence> DarkEra: Ok, cause it would probably be just as good if you used the Ubuntu Gnome partition also for development, and the one you use for dev now, you could use for testing only
<zequence> Testing needs to be reinstalled every now and then, and needs to be a clean Ubuntu Studio install, while the dev install just needs to be a fairly recent Ubuntu of any flavor
<zequence> Also, I would keep a separate partition for files that you can share between installs
<zequence> Or, just a folder in one of the partitions
<DarkEra> for sharing files, wouldn't a external hard drive  be a option?
<zequence> Sure. Doesn't really matter. I do that just to save space
<zequence> I use the same partition for most of my user files on all installs
<zequence> I create symlinks to the home partition, using a script, so I very quickly find myself at home with a new installation
<zequence> The effort that goes into installing I like to keep at a minimum 
<zequence> Quite time consuming
<zequence> And I don't want to be moving around files all the time. Nice to have them all in one place. Most files don't need to be backed up. It's just so much work downloading or moving them around
<DarkEra> that's something i'm not familiar with but i guess i'll learn that in time. It's a bit of a shame that after all these years of using linux i come to know that i know so little but yet find my way around.
<zequence> I use the partition for a OS install mainly to keep system files
<zequence> The home folder is more or less empty
<DarkEra> i see :)
<zequence> So, this way the partition only needs to be 20-40GB
<zequence> Depends on how much you want to install on it
<zequence> I might use 100GB for a dev partition, but only 40GB for a testing partition (or less)
<DarkEra> i think it's ok with the setup i have now, as long as i can use one partition for music creation with a stable release it's fine with me. Things will change when i can get myself a new pc and use the laptop for testing and dev stuff
<DarkEra> i'm glad that i could join in on the Ubuntu Studio project and offer my help. It's the testing that made me think more about getting involved in the development and learn actually learn something.
<zequence> DarkEra: The step towards actually developing something is not that big after all, so I'm sure you'll be doing that in no time
<DarkEra> zequence, time will tell, but we'll get there for sure. It's something i want to do :)
<DarkEra> i haven't really been doing anything in all these years so i'm totally in for a challange like this
<DarkEra> heya madeinkobaia :)
<madeinkobaia> Hello darkera : )
<DarkEra> how are you doing buddy?
<madeinkobaia> darkera : I don't see any buddy in the user list, you mean "Buddy Miles" the musician ?
<DarkEra> lol.. no. buddy as in good friend
<DarkEra> :)
<madeinkobaia> darkera : I am kiddin' you : ) I am fine thanks, and you, what's up ?
<DarkEra> hahaha, i thought just now that you were teasing me a bit.. :D
<madeinkobaia> ; )
<DarkEra> i'm doing fine and the guys helped me to set up a VB install for testing the meta package when it's done building. Might be tomorrow though. Now i know how to set up a VB install of ubuntu it's a piece of cake.
<madeinkobaia> Ok, great.
<madeinkobaia> Well, see you darkera and all fellows. be back tomorrow : )
<madeinkobaia> :)
<DarkEra> ok laters :)
<zequence> Made my first ITP bug reports on Debian. I'll be packagin pd-extended
<DarkEra> trying to install the 64bit CLI but it seems it's just hanging there at the boot menu. i'm glad the 32bit worked though so nothing is lost
#ubuntustudio-devel 2013-05-16
<DarkEra> brb
<DarkEra> hi smartboyhw 
<DarkEra> i'll be back later, need to sort some important things first and go for a daily walk
<ttoine> zequence, do you have the credential for our twitter account, please ?
<zequence> DarkEra: The meta is built. haven't tried it myself yet
<zequence> Should basically install a gnome desktop system
<zequence> I mean, the ubuntustudio-desktop-gnome package in ppa:zequence/testing
<zequence> I will move it to another PPA later, but at least it seems to work
<DarkEra> zequence, you read minds? i just wanted to highlight you and ask how to proceed :)
<DarkEra> i'm going to fire up VB now, can i still add your testing ppa then?
<zequence> DarkEra: Sure. But, before you install anything, let's make a snapshot of the netinstall first. I'll have a look too
<DarkEra> zequence, i took a snapshot of it last night so all is set
<zequence> DarkEra: Ok, so just login, and then: sudo add-apt-repository ppa:zequence/testing
<zequence> There's only one package there for saucy right now
<zequence> Or, one source package that is
<zequence> Which includes all of our meta packages
<zequence> Then: sudo apt-get update
<zequence> finally: sudo apt-get install ubuntustudio-desktop-gnome
<DarkEra> ok, working on it now
<DarkEra> zequence, it says it didn't find the add-apt-repository command
<zequence> DarkEra: Ok, must be in some package. let me look
<DarkEra> ok
<zequence> DarkEra: Try installing software-properties-common
<zequence> Should not depend on any gui stuff, only a few libraries
<DarkEra> that did it, going to update and install the package
<DarkEra> ok, it's installing
<zequence> I'm installing too right now
<zequence> Forgot to take a snapshot :P
<zequence> Will have to reinstall all over again
<DarkEra> oops
<zequence> hmm, since from what I understand, Lubuntu doesn't include pulseaudio, a ubuntustudio-desktop-lxde might be interesting to some folks only for that reason
<zequence> Besides, it would also be the most efficient on older machines
<zequence> We'll need some kind of procedure for maintaining these desktops, so that we don't fall behind, and that we don't inlcude stuff we don't need
<DarkEra> if it's light enough yes, i tried lubuntu once for fun last year but found it using a bit more RAM compared to Xubuntu and Ubuntu Studio 12.04
<DarkEra> yep, agreed
<zequence> I really doubt it uses more RAM
<zequence> but, browsers use a lot of it
<zequence> It should be the one using least resources as is
<zequence> cool, my patch to pulseaudio-1.1 worked
<len-1304> zequence, what kind of patch?
<zequence> jack/PA issues should be fixed in Quantal and Precise within the month
<DarkEra> indeed, browser use a lot of ram. We could give it a try and i'm sure people ask about a LXDE version in time. That was the case with Dream Studio too
 * len-1304 is installing zequence's gnome meta..
<zequence> len-1304: a patch made of the upstream commits that fixes the reserve card issue
<len-1304> Good !
<DarkEra> len-1304, cool :)
<zequence> My install worked fine, but mouse and keyboard aren't working
<zequence> Had to disable mouse integration
<DarkEra> still busy installing :P
<zequence> That means, the Virtual system captures your mouse, and you need to use the right Ctrl key to uncapture it
<len-1304> I shouldn't have that problem then.
<zequence> Well, now the mouse moves, but that's all..
<len-1304> Um, why do we have GDM? Will gnome not work with lightdm?
<zequence> You can choose between the two
<zequence> The Gnome GDM has gone through some pretty big changes
<len-1304> I left lightdm as default.
<zequence> Or, GDM
<DarkEra> i'll keep my grey hair crossed and hope that after the install everything works as should
<len-1304> I can change it after install anyway I would guess
<zequence> Doesn't really matter which you use
<zequence> Unless you really want one over the other
<len-1304> zequence, I would suggest in this case, choosing one DM as default and not installing one for each DE.
<zequence> Well, one should probably not install more than one DE, but that is up to the user
<len-1304> The gnome meta installs gdm, but gives the user the choice of which is default.
<len-1304> The set of packages is not big, but it sure has a lot of packages.
<DarkEra> i noticed this afternoon that gnome also pulls in unity by the way. On my ubuntu Gnome partition i can choose in session from the login screen. So we have 2 DE's already
<len-1304> That may not happen when MIR hits.
<len-1304> Ya there is an app called unity here.
<len-1304> It would be good to find out if that is a depends or recommends
<DarkEra> right, nothing is responding. so can't log in
<zequence> Must be something about the graphics
<DarkEra> mouse moves and that's it
<DarkEra> hmmm
<zequence> or xorg
<len-1304> Well xfce comes back ok... try gnome next.
<len-1304> But 4000 xruns doing nothing already...
<len-1304> At -p 128 which on this machine is normally clean
<len-1304> Failed to execute default terminal emulator
<len-1304> xfce terminal doesn't run.
<zequence> len-1304: Are you on lowlatency?
<len-1304> I'm looking for a terminal that will run...
<zequence> len-1304: Ctrl+Alt+F1
<zequence> DarkEra: I might have found a solution
<DarkEra> ok, shoot :)
<zequence> DarkEra: In the main VirtualBox Gui: File - > Preferences -> Input 
<zequence> disable auto capture keyboard
<zequence> I'm currently reinstalling myself
<len-1304> Ya I figgured that. It is generic.
<len-1304> I didn't have that before.
<zequence> len-1304: So, maybe the desktop meta pulled it in
<len-1304> But that shouldn't stop the terminla from running
<zequence> no, it shouldn't
<len-1304> I'll go try a gnome login now.
<DarkEra> zequence, ok looking into it
<DarkEra> nope, nothing
<len-1304> un
<len-1304> ity
<len-1304> is
<len-1304> ve
<len-1304> ry slo
<len-1304> w
<DarkEra> hahaha
<len-1304> But it runs. The gnome session fails to start.
<len-1304> The application start buttons on the left are so slow it seems like they do nothing.
<len-1304> Ah, xterm works.
<zequence> What I've done is I've copied the desktop seed file from Ubuntu Gnome, without going too much in detail other than renaming ubuntu-gnome-desktop to ubuntustudio-desktop-gnome where ever it was required
<zequence> So, it's not exactly well thought through so far
<len-1304> Status so far is that it gets me a very, very slow unity and no gnome.
<len-1304> Back in studio (xfce) I now have two audio controls in systray.
<zequence> len-1304: is this the machine with the very old graphic card?
<len-1304> Older.... I have an s3 if you would like to try that ;)
<len-1304> Its even older
<len-1304> Ya this is the old nvidia
<zequence> Is there a gnome classic still?
<len-1304> Not on the lightdm menu.
<zequence> Could be a problem with no graphic card support. I'll probably need to install this on my machine
<len-1304> unity is spending so much time on fading windows in and other non-useful stuff it hardly runs
<zequence> I'm trying lighgdm this time
<DarkEra> zequence, want me to look on my ubuntu gnome install and check that?
<zequence> DarkEra: If you like. But, our meta should (in theory) have what Ubuntu Gnome has (at least for saucy)
<DarkEra> right
<DarkEra> ok, i'll check it anyway. brb
<zequence> Gnome Shell is normally very fast, but it does require a system that is not much older than 5 years to be comfortable
<len-1304>  sudo apt-get remove ubuntustudio-desktop-gnome only removes the meta... not all the stuff it dragged in.
<zequence> That is usually the case :)
<len-1304> Oh well, this is an upgrade to 13.11 from 13.04. I should really do a clean install anyway.
<len-1304> An LDE meta would probably be a better one for this machine.
<zequence> Yeah, I used it for a P4 not long ago
<zequence> Worked fine, only, one core was not fun
<DarkEra> there's still a Gnome Classic to choose from
<zequence> DarkEra: This is a Saucy install?
<DarkEra> uhm... no, 13.04 with gnome 3.8
<DarkEra> didn't think about that, sorry
<DarkEra> i'm going to revert and try a new install with lightdm too
<zequence> At this moment, we don't really know how much our meta differs from Ubuntu Gnome. I guess one could compare the dependency lists if nothing else
<zequence> I forgot to take a snapshot again
<zequence> Lucky my internet and machine are not lousy
<DarkEra> again? :P
<zequence> DarkEra: It works
<DarkEra> \o/
<len-1304> how is the audio?
<zequence> DarkEra: I also need to "Disable Mouse Integration" in the "Machine" meny of the virtual OS gui window
<zequence> audio is not great on virtual machines
<DarkEra> zequence, is that the reinstall with lightdm?
<zequence> DarkEra: You might not need to do that
<len-1304> zequence, you already use gnome on your main machine so I would guess audio is not an issue
<zequence> len-1304: No, it's actually not much worse than on XFCE with desktop effects enabled, as is the default configuration
<len-1304> I have had too many complaints about audio on unity to trust it.
<len-1304> In all cases when the user went from unity to xfce the problem went away
<len-1304> but I would guess that if enough of the effects were turned off on unity that would work too
<zequence> Unity was default..
<zequence> It also installed some XCFE stuff
<zequence> Both ubuntustudio and XFCE are avilable for login, but they are broken (missing a lot of packages)
<len-1304> might be upgrades?
<zequence> Probably something I've done wrong in seeds
<zequence> This was ubuntu-minimal from the start
<zequence> There was no DE before
<len-1304> Ok, I started with US 13.11
<zequence> gnome-shell seems to work
<zequence> Well, froze up just now
<DarkEra> now i forgot to take i snapshot of  after the install and reverted back... lol... what a night. Reinstalling the package
<len-1304> seems to me I had better success just adding gnome shell last time.
<len-1304> But things have changed since
<zequence> This virtual install doesn't seem great. Some things work really poorly on VB
<zequence> Ah, video memory probably
<zequence> nope, it just freezes anyway
<zequence> Well, it's a start
<DarkEra> we'll get there :)
<zequence> Now it's just a matter of setting up a system for developing desktop metas, and that means also our default XFCE desktop, which might need some updating (and len has done a good job on that for sure)
<zequence> I'm still not fully understanding how seeds work. It's a little bit confusing
<len-1304> We will have to watch what happens when the new xfce drops...
<DarkEra> when is it to be expected?
<len-1304> The problem with seeds seems to be they default to pull in recommends and suggests
<len-1304> If there is something you don't want it needs to blacklisted.
<zequence> not suggests though?
<len-1304> IDK
<zequence> Ubuntu Gnome is still fairly new, so I guess they still need to polish their setup too
<zequence> It's depending a lot on the Unity setup right now
<len-1304> The big problem is that a meta has all the subpackage deps to worry about.
<len-1304> unity is going to go through big changes up to 14.04
<len-1304> sounds like anyway.
<zequence> xorg won't disappear by then, and once Canonical stops supporting it, either the Ubuntu community will do it, or my guess it'll be imported from Debian
<zequence> In either case, it'll continue to be there
<len-1304> I expect so
<len-1304> What I was hinting at is that studio may not work with unity as a desktop.
<zequence> Why not?
<len-1304> There are some of our apps that rely directly on x
<zequence> So, what you are saying is that some applications won't work on Unity+ MIR
<len-1304> Some of the apps people will want to install too
<len-1304> That is my guess. There is supposed to be an X compat lib...
<len-1304> but that will only work as well as the MIR devs feel like supporting.
<zequence> Wonder what Valve will be using for their Steam console. I don't think it'll be MIR
<zequence> The community can support MIR too, if they want
<len-1304> No one wants to only be usable in one distro of unix
<len-1304> *linux
<zequence> Right now it seems most non Unity devs want to give Wayland a go as planned first
<len-1304> yes. Once there is a good x/wayland meta to bounce off I don't know if there will be much community support/time/development left for MIR
<len-1304> Mir would have to look like it had some advantage.
<len-1304> Pretty hard to say about alpha SW
<zequence> Valve will want top grade video drivers
<len-1304> Ya with games you have to be as good or better than windows...
<zequence> MIR I think will rely mostly on free drivers, and there was talk about integrating Android drivers
<zequence> Wayland, I don't know how that works. I forget
<len-1304> no one will pay for a game that runs slower than what they already have.
<zequence> A lot of the main stream users will like to have nice graphics
<len-1304> wayland is an extension/upgrade of X... it gets rid of some of the least used parts of the lib and adds the things that have been missing.
<len-1304> It adds those non-used X calls back as a compatibility layer.
<zequence> Valve will probably not need much anyway, as long as they get driver support
<len-1304> It is a total redesign of X. Sort of a "if could start all over without worrying about supporting anyting out there now" kind of thing.
<len-1304> It still seems to support server client  stuff... like the app on one machine and the display on another
<len-1304> I am not sure MIR does that.
<len-1304> I did some reading on both of them a while back
<len-1304> Unity seems to take away many of the things that I have enjoyed about linux.
<DarkEra> still no chance to log in
<zequence> DarkEra: You need to set both keyboard and mouse as I explained earlier
<zequence> kayboard is set from the main gui preferences, the mouse from the OS gui menu
<DarkEra> zequence, i did that
<zequence> Then I don't know :(
<zequence> Might be best to install on a testing partition, and I'll need to set up a system for rolling back stuff
<zequence> So, one doesn't need to install the OS over and over, just the meta
#ubuntustudio-devel 2013-05-17
<len-1311> install finished reboot
<DarkEra> zequence, i'm going to use the partition i have for Ubuntu Gnome and try to install it on that one
<DarkEra> just wondering if the dd works to write it to a usb stick
<zequence> I have a google alerts on "Ubuntu Studio". It's funny that I get things like the amd64 PPA build of pulseaudio on one of my repos
<zequence> Not many hits per day usually. 1-5 or so
<DarkEra> gonna work on installing it so i'll be offline and chat you tomorrow again, getting late over here too
<len-1310> bye
<DarkEra> bye :)
<zequence> len-1310: Do you still have a quantal install somewhere?
<len-1310> Ya... nb is on it.
<len-1310> But I can't mess with it too much as it has too much personal stuff on it
<zequence> len-1310: I got pulseaudio built with the patch if you want to try it, but the version is not going to be the same as the final release of the package
<zequence> ppa:zequence/ubuntustudio-sru-testing
<zequence> I'm going to test it anyway later, so no need
<len-1310> Oh wait... NB is r pulse 2*
<zequence> 2.1
<len-1310> I'll have to install it here... but not tonight :)
<zequence> but, the upload (debian version) will not bet he same
<zequence> if you want to switch to the main version, you'll need to revert back
<len-1310> No, I mean I will have to install Q here.
<zequence> ok
<zequence> seems to work nicely
<zequence> Too bad the fixes come into Ubuntu so late, after they appear upstream, but at least it'll happen now
<len-1310> Ya, 12.04 was the main one though.
<zequence> Yeah, there's a good chance people will want to keep using it even after 14.04 is out.
<zequence> I put up our contact@ubuntustudio.org email to our website yesterday. Alread today I had someone sending a support question. That was not my plan, so I guess I should move the adress somehwere and clarify what it is good for
<denisc_> Hi, I'm interested in getting involved with documentation and/or development of ubuntustudio. I've been using linux since the late 1990s, and music apps for most of that time. I code a bit - mainly android stuff though - but suspect I'd be most helpful with documentation. I teach music at an Australian university (macquarie) and am involved in teaching studio production amongst other things. Have joined the devel list so hope to hear if I can 
<denisc_> be of use.
<zequence> denisc_: You're most welcome to join us
<denisc_> Great! maybe I should lurk for a bit and stick my hand up if anything crops up that I might be able to help with?
<zequence> denisc_: Sure, you are welcome to do that. But, if you like, I can already point you in some directions. The hard part in the beginnins is probably just to get an overview
<zequence> And that takes a bit of time - no hurry
<zequence> Most of the tasks we do require little or no knowledge of code, even if some things do require some reading of wiki pages, etc
<zequence> documentation is easy in the way that you don't need to install anything. you just write stuff
<denisc_> Ok - point me! I've used ubuntustudio on and off for a few years as well as 64studio so have a decent grasp of a subcollection of audio stuff
<zequence> But, as soon as you want to do anything that has to do with the OS itself, like testing, researching and selecting applications, etc, then you'll need to make an install specifically for that
<zequence> denisc_: I'm currently documenting everything we do here in the wiki we have https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio
<zequence> That is used for development
<zequence> The header is a little misleading, cause if you click the blue box saying "User Help", you actually end up in another wiki
<zequence> which is 
<zequence> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuStudio
<zequence> used for user help documentation
<zequence> Anyway, I've tried to make it easy to find anything and everything from there
<zequence> There's no user guide at all yet
<zequence> Just a few HowTos
<zequence> as for development documentation, it's getting there
<zequence> denisc_: If you look at the navigation panel for https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio, you see "User", "Testing", "workflows", etc
<zequence> Those are some defined areas of development
<denisc_> Looking the user guide now - https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuStudio/UserGuide/Audio - and could think of some simple workflow examples that would be relatively easy to get moving?
<zequence> denisc_: You're free to start adding stuff. The structure there is very sketchy
<zequence> I'd focus on the core stuff initially
<zequence> denisc_: Also, I'm setting up a youtube channel
<zequence> Would be nice to put up some videos with simple guides on doing stuff. Just a screencast with some helping text
<zequence> denisc_: Anyway, make yourself at home. I'm here most days - I'm the project lead, btw
<zequence> And, some other people lurk here too
<zequence> I try to make it possible for people to work independently as much as possible
<zequence> But, questions are always welcome
<denisc_> ok - I could try that - would be useful for work too. So would something on qjackctl, starting jack, starting ardour, doing a basic recording, then exporting it be useful or would that be duplicating ardour doc?
<zequence> denisc_: I think what I would do is first look at what docs already exist, then think about what would be worth doing on our help sections (which then could be imported to our main site). 
<zequence> I would add links to existing manuals and documentation 
<zequence> I'd like for Ubuntu Studio to be a centre for information, and we don't need to be the people producing it
<zequence> Handling jack is absolutely worth writing about
<denisc_> Ok - will do! Thanks for the pointers. I'll go and look at it all in more detail. The centre of info thing makes a lot of sense.
<zequence> We're just recently becoming more active in the social medias and writing more often on our main site
<zequence> And that's something I'd like for us to do more in the future too
<zequence> Spread news about Linux multimedia. Make it easy for people to find information
<zequence> That's something that you're welcome to help with too
<zequence> But, no hurry with anything. Takes a bit of time to get into it
<zequence> denisc_: See you around then. Getting a bit late over here :)
<denisc_> No worries - and thanks.  great to get a sense of what to do. catch you later
<len-1310> smartboyhw, did a test install of the daily. looks good, but there are of course not many changes either.
<len-1310> Hoping to see ardour 3 soon as well as xfce 4.12
<len-1310> The install ubuntustudio menu selection seems to have ended up where I wanted it.
<len-1310> (I couldn't tell before because it only shows up in a live session)
<smartboyhw> len-1310: Good. zequence still has to fix the Ardour 3 packaging, and let's hope the Xubuntu developers can package it in time.
<len-1310> zequence, re: Tracktion. http://www.tracktion.com/linux ... I notice they are sporting a Ubuntu COF (vanilla) but their package is not available either with synaptic or USC. It seems it has to be downloaded from their site after you "login"
<len-1310> xfce4.12 is supposed to show up before alpha 2
<len-1310> smartboyhw, ^^^
<smartboyhw> len-1310: Yep
<smartboyhw> zequence: Anything related to us on vUDS discussions?
<zequence> smartboyhw: Most of the community related things, I believe, but in order for us to participate well, we need people who have time to do so'
<zequence> I think testing is an important subject
<zequence> I didn't follow much of the sessions actively this time
<zequence> Seems like my problems with Gnome yesterday had less to do with VirtualBox and more with the updated set of Gnome related libs/apps
<zequence> Not runnable atm
<smartboyhw> zequence: Ubuntu seems really changing to Chromiumâ¦
<zequence> not me :)
<zequence> Chromium, or Chrome OS, with a Google account, for better or worse, is Big Brother sees you. Google really has a historic opportunity for doing research based on user data, and I can't think of a reason why they wouldn't
<zequence> I like to joke that they know more than CIA
<zequence> It's really the same thing if you're on any browser while using Google services
<zequence> I'm a little reluctant, all though quite passively right now
<smartboyhw> zequence: Heh
<zequence> If Google services were run by the government, what would people think then?
<smartboyhw> zequence: 1984â¦
<zequence> Exactly
<zequence> All though, in a "Don't be evil" kind of way
<smartboyhw> zequence: I think you should go to work for Apple, Inc.
<zequence> I'm not evil enough to want to do that..
<smartboyhw> zequence: LOL
<ttoine> zequence, ping
<zequence> ttoine: pong
<DarkEra> draw
<zequence> DarkEra: I did an upgrade of Gnome Ubuntu to 13.10 today, and it wasn't usable
<zequence> Basically the same as on VirtualBox
<DarkEra> so it wasn't a VB problem
<DarkEra> i didn't install it yet on the other partition so i hold off then
<zequence> Yes, better not try it until it's more stable
<DarkEra> ok
<DarkEra> too bad, i was excited about it and get into business. :)
<zequence> I was stuck with Unity :P
<DarkEra> lol
<DarkEra> unity shouldn't be a dependencie of Gnome
<zequence> Could be the Gnome guys could need some help
<zequence> But, so do we
<DarkEra> a lot of projects need more help, that's a fact. Only it's too bad that not much people jump on board
<zequence> ttoine: I'll be gone for maybe one hour. You can PM if you want. I'll get back to you
<zequence> Actually, seems like I'll be gone for the rest of the afternoon/evening
<zequence> Great weather today :P
<zequence> See you guys tomorrow
<DarkEra> great weather he says.... it's raining! I guess you're lucky zequence 
<madeinkobaia> Hi all : )
<smartboyhw> madeinkobaia: Hey
<smartboyhw> ttoine: You want madeinkobaia?
<madeinkobaia> Hi smartboyhw : )
<ttoine> madeinkobaia, hi
<ttoine> smartboyhw, thanks ;-)
<ttoine> madeinkobaia, would you have some artwork, even basic, I can use ?
<ttoine> if you provide me with the svg, I can do the export at the good dpi
<madeinkobaia> Hi ttoine. We have just talked about the project with zequence. I send you a copy of the mail. 
<ttoine> ok
<madeinkobaia> ttoine : Send on "ttoine.net".
<ttoine> thanks
<madeinkobaia> ttoine, zequence, ... : Next we are all agree on the concept, the complete design layout will be available for print 2 days after. Necessary time for "fine stunning". 
<madeinkobaia> ttoine : Witch program do you want to use for export the .svg ?
<ttoine> madeinkobaia, zequence look at your email box
<ttoine> madeinkobaia, inkscape. spreadshirt is asking for rgb jpg or png
<madeinkobaia> ttoine : Thats good, Inkscape is the native program I use for make the .svg. I suppose they do the post-treatment but I will anyway give you also a clean .png version.
<ttoine> ok. this is more a problem of dimension
<ttoine> 300 or 600 dpi are not the same for 5cm than for 20cm
<madeinkobaia> ttoine : Mail answer send. Otherwise no problems about the .dpi or something we will work together on the integration.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2013-05-18
<smartboyhw> Wb zequence
<smartboyhw> zequence: How's your internet?
<zequence> my internet has sucked today
<len-1310> speed is "ok" here but dropout is a bit higher than normal.
<len-1310> zequence, I am going to install the daily xubuntu. When last I checked xubuntu docs were mostly just a pointer to an apps release notes. They have been working on improving their docs so it may be worthwhile including them for desktop (settings) help.
<zequence> len-1310: Yes, sounds like good idea
<len-1310> I would like to be able to use xububtu's docs as is if possible. Just change the desktop file.
<zequence> Yeah
<len-1310> That may mean using their settings manager the same as they do.
<len-1310> Even though (last I checked) there are some things in there that really belong in system. But hear they are changing that too
<len-1310> My thought is to leave the desktop as close to xubuntu as possible. In fact I would like to be able to just include their meta
<zequence> I think doing too much custom work on our side always has the danger of it not being adapatable to upstream changes
<zequence> And for us, Xubuntu is in some way upstream
<zequence> Of course, we can choose to not think that way too
<len-1310> Xubuntu is spending almost all of their time on desktop smothness and usage.
<len-1310> this is something we want /need too.
<len-1310> also, if we are planning to offer more than one DE we need to think in terms of using a predone DE and adding US to it
<len-1310> My understanding is that xubuntu is working to have two ISO sets. One with just the raw desktop with no apps pre installed and another with apps. This should mean there is a meta for just the desktop
<zequence> len-1310: That would in deed make it easy for us to just base our desktop on theirs
<len-1310> Ok, I will make that my next project... This may mean redoing much of the menu stuff, but that needs to be done anyway for other DEs
 * len-1310 will need to make some new partitions...
<len-1310> zequence, where should I frop this in the blueprints?
<zequence> len-1310: The "desktop" one I suppose
<zequence> Maybe it could be renamed to desktop-xfce to make it clearer
<len-1310> Ya, I figured
<len-1310> Ok, I will see if I can do that
<len-1310> Actually we would need to make a new item as some ofthe things in desktop apply to all DEs
<len-1310> zequence, It apears I can not create a new blue print ubuntustudio-s-desktop-xfce as I am not privileged enough. The current ubuntustudio-s-desktop should remain for things that are common to all DEs.
<len-1310> That is, if someone starts with KDE already installed the US desktop meta should add the US specific things needed to make a kubuntu install work for studio
<zequence> len-1310: We don't really have a common desktop thing yet, so I think it's ok to keep them all separate for now
<zequence> len-1310: I think the two things that could be common are the menu, and audio controls
<len-1310> Desktop shold depend on setting and artwork for example.
<zequence> It's just that each desktop will have its own artwork
<len-1310> ya controls too
<len-1310> Oh, ok
<zequence> And about settings, I haven't really looked at what the differences would be - I do think we should try keeping one settings for all of them
<len-1310> Should be able to.
<len-1310> I think the artwork should all be one meta too, so that if more than one DE is installed it still works even if different artwork is used per DE
<len-1310> zequence, I am assuming the biggest difference in artwork would be the backdrop.
<len-1310> Icons would be the same ?
<zequence> len-1310: I guess so. We haven't really discussed any of that. For now, we just need to set up preliminary desktop metas, and go from there
<zequence> The biggest difference will of course be the theme for the desktop
<zequence> XFCE, KDE and GNome all have different window borders, and KDE has QT instead of GTK
<len-1310> Ya.
<zequence> Gotta go
<len-1310> Bye
<zequence> Being baby sitter for a 4 year old, while updating kernel :P
<zequence> bye
<len-1310> If I type anything I won't expect a response real soon
#ubuntustudio-devel 2013-05-19
<len-x> hmm the difference between xubuntu and lubuntu is 43.3%
<len-1310> zequence, I looked at lubuntu. The processes running are almost the same as with xfce. I wonder how much cpu/memory it actually saves
<len-1310> I don't know if it has enough differences from xfce to warrant a studio meta for it.
<len-1310> I'll have to play with it a bit.
<len-1310> It feels old... almost like twm from before fvwm. But at least it follows xdg standards
<smartboyhw> len-1310 (C.C. zequence): Since you (a.k.a. len-1310) are awake, Bug 1181762 should be good for you.
<ubottu> bug 1181762 in xubuntu-default-settings (Ubuntu) "Depend on fonts-droid instead of ttf-droid" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1181762
<len-1310> smartboyhw, Ok I see it.
<len-1310> I am assigned.
<smartboyhw> len-1310: Thanks!
<smartboyhw> Hey madeinkobaia, how's the merchandise art?
<madeinkobaia> Hi smartboyhw, we work on it.
<smartboyhw> madeinkobaia: Great!
<smartboyhw> zequence: The website looks better now.
<madeinkobaia> smartboyhw : ) 
<madeinkobaia> smartboyhw : I think if everything is ok, the products will be online this week.
<smartboyhw> madeinkobaia: \o/
<smartboyhw> len-1310: You need a # for the bug number in the blueprint;P
<Len-nb> smartboyhw, Why?
<smartboyhw> Len-nb: As in Ubuntu changelogs:P
<smartboyhw> Anyways, it's just trivial
<smartboyhw> *Ubuntu package changelogs
<Len-nb> Is there something that auto reads them and changes something or os it just for human readers?
<smartboyhw> Len-nb: Probably in places like status.ubuntu.com
<smartboyhw> Len-nb: I will change it:)
<Len-nb> I think it is right in the change log... it auto added the bug link
<smartboyhw> Len-nb: Awesome
<smartboyhw> We need micahg to upload though
<Len-nb> I don't think there is a great hurry though.
<smartboyhw> Len-nb: Yep
<Len-nb> There are some more settings changes coming ... I am going to work at making the studio menu customization work for all the DEs
<smartboyhw> Len-nb: \o/
<madeinkobaia> Len-nb : Interesting. Huge work I think.
<Len-nb> smartboyhw, I looked at lubuntu yesterday. It doesn't look that much lighter than xfce
<smartboyhw> Len-nb: Oh really?
<smartboyhw> On stats it isâ¦
<Len-nb> ps x  shows almost all the same stuff running as xfce
<smartboyhw> Len-nb: Heh
<Len-nb> It did feel a bit snappier
<Len-nb>  But the DE "looks" old... like twm from the early 90s
<smartboyhw> Len-nb: Heh
<Len-nb> I actually prefer fvwm with the motif style window decorations
<Len-nb> (later 90s, but still active development)
<smartboyhw> Len-nb: Better than those GNOME 2 forks
<Len-nb> I think we made the right choice to have drive auto mount off by default. Try using gparted in xubuntu...
<smartboyhw> LOL
<Len-nb> G2 is dead  think. xfce is the best replacement.
<smartboyhw> Len-nb: There are still forks like MATE.
<Len-nb> Better to take G3 and make it look more G2ish
<smartboyhw> Those who liked GNOME 2 are just traditional and unmodern
<Len-nb> As the libs change the maintenance costs go up... manpower wise.
<Len-nb> I'm traditional too. If fvwm used xdg standards I would probably use it :)
<madeinkobaia> smartboyhw : I am not sure of that. Gnome 2 was / is a great development step. Now there are people who also don't like Gnome 3 because he's less easy to "customize".
<Len-nb> "Modern" that I can see is like clothes fashion... chnage for the sake of change
<smartboyhw> madeinkobaia: Because the devs are strange, they don't allow people's feature requests
<Len-nb> The function of X/windows/OSx has changed very little in usability since xerox first developed it.
<madeinkobaia> Len-nb : Agree, new don't means nothing, and change for the change is typical commercial thought. (I simplify, of course)
<Len-nb> Mostly window dressing
<smartboyhw> I rather like modern
<smartboyhw> And for me, GNOME 2 is ugly.
<smartboyhw> MS Windows-liked
<Len-nb> I would say that is somewhat cultural :) (not a put down)
<Len-nb> My enjoyment of traditional is probably cultural too
<smartboyhw> Len-nb: We Chinese are very traditional
<Len-nb> New artwork for a new release is nice.
<madeinkobaia> smartboyhw : Basically, on Linux DE, ugly means nothing as ALL is graphically strictly modulable. I invite you to take a look on community screenshots on deviant-art for see that gnome 2 can be awesome.
<Len-nb> not with technology
<madeinkobaia> smartboyhw, Len-nb : Creativity is open, as the rest, on Linux DE : )
<Len-nb> Yup
<smartboyhw> Tech constantly evolves and as tht happens, old ones should get disbandes
<smartboyhw> *disbanded
<Len-nb> I think xfce is a good compromise as a default DE for a development platform like studio.
<Len-nb> smartboyhw, :)
<smartboyhw> Len-nb: It is modern and has menus:)
<smartboyhw> That's why it works
<smartboyhw> KDE is the 2nd best alternative
<smartboyhw> I don't see why people like Unity in Studio
<Len-nb> I'm going to leave that one alone... lets just say I feel different about some of it at least.
<smartboyhw> They do though
<Len-nb> And then have trouble
<madeinkobaia> smartboyhw : So we have to make a difference about what we're talking about, code is code and its indeed a perpetual run on improvement. The question of design is completely independent of that.
<Len-nb> Yes
<smartboyhw> madeinkovaia: No.
<smartboyhw> *madeinkobaia
<smartboyhw> Design also evolves
<smartboyhw> And old things should get disbanded
<Len-nb> But not necessarily improve
<smartboyhw> That's what makes the world great, we take in new thinfs
<smartboyhw> Len-nb: Well, GNOME 3 is much better than GNOME 2 I think
<Len-nb> However if the tech behind design does not keep up then design has to change to use what is available
<smartboyhw> Len-nb: You mean the code of GNOME 3 is outdated?
<Len-nb> I found G3 hard. and slower
<smartboyhw> Or?
<smartboyhw> Well anyways, we are better off with Xfce:P
<Len-nb> I mean the code for G2 is not going to be maintained
<Len-nb> so G2 will go sooner or later
<Len-nb> Right now G2 has all the stuff it needs still hanging around so it is easy to fork.
<Len-nb> But updating the whole thing to new libs as they come out is a lot of work and the g2 fork community is a lot smaller than the gnome community
<madeinkobaia> smartboyhw : I am (humbly) very interesting in design. What can I tell you for sure is that Apple, as Google or even Microsoft on windows 8 have nothing invented in terms of design. Most of them recipes comes from basing design approach who comes them self from for example the Bauhaus (1919-1933 ! )
<smartboyhw> madeinkobaia: Meh, I need to sleep soon, can we stop debating?
<Len-nb> The De really just starts and places apps.
<madeinkobaia> smartboyhw : In art or design, nothing can be improved or create anymore. Sorry ; ) Just things that people cleverly adapt now on computing world.
<smartboyhw> madeinkobaia: Disagree
<smartboyhw> But can we stop?
<smartboyhw> It's 23:35 here
<Len-nb> GN smartboyhw 
<smartboyhw> Good night Len-nb and madeinkobaiaâ¦
<madeinkobaia> smartboyhw : Goodnight smartboyhw.
<Len-nb> It is interesting, most of the time the computer does very little for the user. That is why new DEs can use lots of CPU
<Len-nb> The average user does lots of web stuff and the connection is very slow compared to the cpu availability. People type slowly too.
<madeinkobaia> Len-nb : As I am not developer I am not sure to be really able to understand where the resources demands are dispatching on the system. I still don't understand why for example KDE 3x use to need the double of resource of Gnome 2.x. (I mean an average : ram+processor). Applications on startups ? Graphicall needs on the GPU...?
<madeinkobaia> Len-nb : Well no needs answers, sorry for the tricky question. Just a thought that also half of the planet don't have even 512 mo of ram available and that we're are also here for think about that. I have nothing again KDE himself of course.
<madeinkobaia> Len-nb : KDE is really interesting, no problems on that.
<len-1310> Sorry went to get food :)
<madeinkobaia> Len-nb : No problems :)
<len-1310> Ya, I hear/read "this is 2013 we all have faster cpus and lots of ram"
<len-1310> I can't aford to get new HW every two years
<len-1310> I have a single core P4. over 10 years old
<madeinkobaia> Len-nb : Yep in around 20 country in the world its truth.
<len-1310> I did get more Ram, I am up to 2.5 G
<madeinkobaia> Len-nb : Do you know which PC I use now for speak you ?
<len-1310> ?
<madeinkobaia> Len-nb : a P4 processor (from 2003) 2,4 ghz with 768mo of ram :D And all my works as swiss clock. 
<len-1310> Thats about what I have here. My bigest problem is the old nvidia graphics card
<madeinkobaia> Len-nb : No problems by my side with the GC. I forget to say...I run Debian : )
<len-1310> The graphics situation has been getting worse the last year or so. I am not sure if the apps are using more GPU calls or the driver is changing for new cards
<madeinkobaia> Len-nb :  Those questions are tricky. I no have answers by my side too : (
<len-1310> I should look for another card anyway. this one has bad capacitors and is begining to "streak"
<madeinkobaia> Len-1310 : Yep, I think there's also a "lucky part" in getting a graphical card (independently of the OS). By my side I was lucky until now.
<len-1310> Yup, anyway I need to go. Talk later
<madeinkobaia> len-1310 :  See you :D
<madeinkobaia> len-1310 :  Damn wrong emo...just a :) 
<madeinkobaia> len-1310 :  Nice to speak with you mate.
<leobian> hi
<madeinkobaia> Hi leobian.
<madeinkobaia> leobian : Could we help ?
<leobian> i just made a dvd cover, derivative from the 9 version but for 13.04
<leobian> should i post it under user contribution ?
<madeinkobaia> leobian : Is it possible to see your work somewhere ? Have a link ?
<leobian> i needed that for our install-party
<leobian> ok, in a few minutes
<madeinkobaia> leobian : Ok : )
<leobian> hi
<leobian> link is http://www.gard-linux.fr/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=14
<madeinkobaia> leobian : Sorry, was away. Could you wait a little.
<madeinkobaia> zequence : ^
<zequence> madeinkobaia: Yes, I saw it :)
<zequence> leobian: You are talking with the right person when it comes to artwork. madeinkobaia is our art lead
<zequence> I am project lead myself
<leobian> so, ok
<madeinkobaia> leobian : I will be back latter, if you need help for improve your cover don't hesitate to ask me : )
<leobian> thanks, i'll try to; bye
<zequence> It's well made. But, I note that the Ubuntu Studio specific elements are tiny bit outdated. Otherwise, it's really nice to see something specifically for Ubuntu Studio
<zequence> I think we could consider adding stuff like this on our website, under a artwork page, but that would make it a bit more official, and I would at least welcome some feedback/discussion on that
<leobian> you mean graphical chart specific for ubuntustudio ?
<leobian> yes i did'nt use this
<zequence> leobian: We could share some artwork on our website that can be used for different things, like CD covers, web banners, etc
<zequence> In the long term there are plans for new unified art work, maybe for the 14.04 release
<zequence> So, until then, the directions aren't as clear
<leobian> it's only proposed to fill a gap under user artwork for current version https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/Artwork/UserContributed
<zequence> But, if we do add stuff to the main website, I would like it if all concerned parties feel it is as good as we like it to be
<leobian> and should be removed at any time
<leobian> ok, i understand
<zequence> leobian: Would you be interesting in developint this further?
<zequence> developing*
<leobian> why not but don't many time nor great ideas about that; i'm not a graphic creator
<leobian> don't have*
<zequence> leobian: I'm sure that madeinkobaia would have some input to that. Also, he could assist in polishing details if needed. If you like doing this, I think it's worth a shot
<leobian> ok; so now, what to do ?
<zequence> leobian: Well, one thing you might want to try is using the Ubuntu font, which is what we have been using for the logo recently. But, really, madeinkobaia is the guy to speak about this
<zequence> Come to think of it, I think we have some material that could be used for this already, that is used for our social banners
<leobian> yes, good idea to use the Ubuntu font; but a problem was to use simultaneously the raring tail logo with the ubuntustudio one
<zequence> Yes, that is a new concept for me, using the animal art with Ubuntu Studio
<zequence> So, the question is, should we perhaps skip that?
<madeinkobaia> leobian : You're Jean-Daniel from the gard-linux  site ? I ask, like that we could contact you easily.
<leobian> yes tht's right
<madeinkobaia> leobian : Ok, nice to meet.
<leobian> likewise
<madeinkobaia> leobian : The graphical elements related to Ubuntu Studio are outdated (old logo and text version). Not your fault. We have to update the communication about our actual graphical standards. 
<madeinkobaia> zequence : ^
<leobian> zequence : my preference goes to associate animal art with UbuntuStudio
<madeinkobaia> leobian : By "animal art" you mean to use the 13.04 Ubuntu official mascot (the ringtail logo) ?
<leobian> yes that's right
<madeinkobaia> leobian : Ok, If you're agree, I could work on your DVD cover and (with keeping your good original composition), try to improve it and update the graphical elements according to our actual standards. After we could see what to do.
<leobian> it's ok for me; should i send you the gimp file ?
<madeinkobaia> leobian : For sure at : madeinkobaia@ubuntustudio.org 
<madeinkobaia> leobian : Ok stay in touch and thanks for contribute to Ubuntu Studio.
<leobian> i'll send you soon; good bye
#ubuntustudio-devel 2014-05-12
<OvenWerks> zequence: Just talking to someone on the other channel (ubuntustudio) who installed ubuntustudio 14.04 and was not in the audio group...
<OvenWerks> It seems they had two users in mind and put the other user (his GF) in as install then added himself as admin after.
<OvenWerks> I don't know if we can or should make audio a default group for new users.
<OvenWerks> Or if controls first setup will take care of that.
<zequence> OvenWerks: yeah, I've known about that problem for a long time, but haven't had it priority
<zequence> We can't make audio default group for Ubuntu users, and we should try to change how rt privilege is administered anyway
<zequence> ..but if nothing else, I suppose we should at least make all new users members of audio group
<OvenWerks> zequence: ok
<OvenWerks> zequence: just had a thought about the installer (ubiquity). What happens if someone chooses to install none of the kde applications because they don't want the libs in there. The kde libs are on the ISO I would think they still get installed even though there is now nothing that depends on them.
<OvenWerks> Am I right on that? Then because they are part of the install, they are considered as user chosen so I don't know if autoremove would see them.
<OvenWerks> Does ubiquity do it's own clean up at install time?
<zequence> OvenWerks: No, I don't think stuff gets installed unless it's in the seeds, or is not a dependency
<zequence> OvenWerks: We have things on the live ISO that don't get installed, that are only needed for the live ISO, like ubiquity
<zequence> I meant IS a dependency, of course :)
<zequence> But, some apps were installed though deselected in the plugin. Not sure why.
<zequence> Could be they are in the seeds in other places
#ubuntustudio-devel 2014-05-13
<Skarlet36> Hello, my first time here.
<joeR> Was wondering what tasks I could help with .. Not sure how xchat works but assume I can watch this and maybe pick up on something .. Is it better to leave it running or return periodically ?
#ubuntustudio-devel 2014-05-14
<ttoine> hello
<ttoine> zequence, would you be there ?
<zequence> Hi ttoine 
<ttoine> zequence, hello
<ttoine> just to tell you that Canonical asked me to update the legal mentions at the bottom of the spreadshirt boutique and the merchandise page of ubuntustudio.org
<ttoine> so did I
<ttoine> ;-)
<ttoine> zequence, sorry, had to restart on windows
<zequence> ttoine: Hi. I read the legal mention. Seems accurate
<zequence> ttoine: Did you get my email about the faulty cup?
#ubuntustudio-devel 2014-05-15
<zequence> linux rt imported from debian building in a PPA. Let's see how that works out.
<zequence> No errors yet, though still building https://launchpad.net/~ubuntustudio-kernel/+archive/linux-rt-testbuilds
<ttoine> zequence, yes, I get it
<ttoine> I was very surprised to see it online
<ttoine> I will have to delete it, instead of just disable it
<zequence> ttoine: I bought the white t-shirt a couple of months ago, so I've tried two now. The blue, and the white. The white one was not as good as one had hoped - the printing was different, compared to the blue one
<zequence> ttoine: Not sure if they have changed the printing, or if white t-shirts are printed differently
<ttoine> I think you are right
<ttoine> for colored fabric, they have to use a printer with white ink
<ttoine> for white shirt, a standard quadri color printer is enough
<zequence> ttoine: Ok :)
<zequence> I also got the cup early, which had printing only on one side. I liked it very much.
<zequence> madeinkobaia did a nice job on the graphics, and you on implementing them
<ttoine> yes
<ttoine> it would be great to have some stickers at unixstickers, too
<ttoine> but madeinkobaya had no time at the moment to design them
<zequence> ttoine: Oh, I just mailed him about the future cycles. We should really find a way to do that shortly.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2014-05-16
<zequence> linux rt built fine in the PPA
<SonikkuAmerica> Hello! At long last I am able to test out the Ubuntu Studio under UEFI situation. I plopped the install into a VM with UEFI in VBox. Now, to see if renaming /EFI/ubuntustudio to /EFI/ubuntu on the ESP works.
<SonikkuAmerica> If it does, I'll let you know.
<SonikkuAmerica> After testing, it seems that it works on its own on UEFI, with Secure Boot disabled.
<SonikkuAmerica> (14.04)
<zequence> SonikkuAmerica: AFAIK 14.04 works fine with UEFI
<zequence> I tried an installtion with Secure boot enabled, and it worked
<zequence> The kernel is now merged with linux-generic, and is maintained by canonical
<zequence> We didn't have the signed stuff before, but since 14.04 we have what -generic has
<zequence> I did my test install on a machine suited for Windows 8. Currently running Debian on it.
<holstein> i was hoping we were done with RT kernels...
<zequence> it's not a replacement
<zequence> if it performs better than -lowlatency, and it's not too tough to maintain, I'm adding it to the repo
<holstein> depends on what one is doing
<holstein> if it messes with the battery life on a machine that is not doing audio production, thats worse performance.. but im just saying, i was hoping we were done with them by now.. or would be
<zequence> if it doesn't break anything, and it serves a purpose, there's no argument against adding it
<zequence> especially since it's me who does the work, not Ubuntu Studio
<holstein> there are the known breakages..
<zequence> -lowlatency is really what -generic should be (-generic is suited for servers)
<zequence> But, it's not good enough in all situations
<holstein> i mean, i can and might argue against adding it, but, im interested in testing..
<holstein> i havent had my firewire device around to test with since 14.04 went stable
<zequence> As I said, it's not replacing -lowlatency
<zequence> And, if it serves a purpose, there is no argument against adding it, since it's not breaking anything
<zequence> i don't need anyones permission to add a kernel into universe, except for the Ubuntu kernel folks
<holstein> sure.. but it *does* break some things...
<zequence> How? If it's not our default kernel, how would it breakt things?
<holstein> zequence: im not saying you need my permission
<zequence> For the third time, it's not a replacement
<zequence> on the issue of us adding it as an install option (if we get to that point - we're still haven't even done a single test), then it is a matter for Ubuntu Studio
<holstein> zequence: sure.. and i understand,, and really just wanted to say.. i suppose that can also be for the third time, that i was hoping we wouldnt need it anymore
<holstein> i look forward to testing with my hardware.. all the cases i have, with both kernels
<SonikkuAmerica> And look what I started :P lol
<zequence> SonikkuAmerica: We were talking about something esle
<SonikkuAmerica> oh
<zequence> I'm looking at adding linux-rt back into the repos
<SonikkuAmerica> At any rate, I'd say my work with that is done for now :D
<zequence> But, this time, syncing linux-rt from Debian
<zequence> holstein: -lowlatency will stay default, since it's the best choice. But, for those who need extra low latency - which I happen to need for live audio processing, then you always have a further choice
<zequence> Computer hardware today should have no problem doing what we need it to do for audio processing, but most linux devs aren't focusing on that specific area
<zequence> And linux is used mostly on servers and embedded devices, not studio desktop machines
<zequence> -lowlatency makes things a little bit easier for us, but it's not reliable enough at all times
<zequence> In certain situations, you'll get problems
<zequence> -rt will probably introduce new problems, but that's how things go
<zequence> SonikkuAmerica: It's cool that you put some effort in figuring that stuff out anyhow
<SonikkuAmerica> :D
<zequence> SonikkuAmerica: I've seen you on a few times, but whenever I tried to answer you, you had logged out already
<SonikkuAmerica> Yeah, I forgot to put #ubuntustudio-devel on my list of favorites
<DalekSec> zequence: Just real quick, have you done much in Debian-multimedia?
#ubuntustudio-devel 2014-05-17
<OvenWerks> zequence: How can I stress test lowlatency? Right now I can run jack at minimum latency (16/2) and process audio using gutarix or rakarrack with no xruns. I seem to be able to run 4 or 5 softsynths at a time as well already. Not much of a keyboard player so a sequence to run may be best.
<zequence> OvenWerks: Use the rt-tests package
<zequence> DalekSec: Nope. Haven't had time to get into that yet
<DalekSec> Ah, alrighty-o.
<zequence> OvenWerks: I was going to give you a link yesterday to an example test,  but had some problems and then had to go to sleep
<zequence> ..hang on
<zequence> OvenWerks: You can skip the part of building the test, and just do the command at the bottom https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/CyclicTest
<zequence> You get a value at the end, which on a realtime kernel is commonly below 400, down to 200 or so. 
<zequence> Compare generic and lowlatency. Lowlatency will give you a value of several thousands, typically. I have gotten up to 1200 with lowlatency
<zequence> Sorry, generic will give you a value of several thousands
<zequence> What you can notice from the test is that -lowlatency can perform really well 90% of the time, but now and again it will spike and not be able to finish a process in the same short amount of time
<zequence> -rt, however, should perform a lot tighter, and not have these random spikes
<zequence> OvenWerks: Ah, re: issuing the command at the bottom. First, of course, you need to install the package rt-tests, where you will find cyclictest
<zequence> hmm, I think rt-tests builds a module for the kernel now.
<zequence> OvenWerks: Ah, right. You want to do stuff during the test, preferably using both graphics and other stuff. You can unpack a big file, while watching flash video - like one or several youtube videos
<zequence> Haven't looked at rt-tests for a long time, but, I think it comes with some stressing tools as well
<zequence> Perhaps the tool hackbench, which is a part of the suite rt-tests
<zequence> OvenWerks: The value I'm talking about is "highest". I don't recall what they represent, but it's the time it takes for a process complete, just to clarify. There's a average value as well
<Rosco2> Newbie question: I am member of Ubuntu Studio Bugs. Description in Launchpad says team is subscribed to many bugs. I don't actually get too many emails. 
<Rosco2> I know it is possible to subscribe UbuntuStudioBugs or USDevel teams to a bug if you think they should be aware and follow an issue.
<Rosco2> Originally assumed that USBugs would be subscribed to/owner of packages/meta packages and automatically get all bug traffic?
<Rosco2> Are my assumptions correct?
<zequence> Rosco2: Unfortunately that team is not subscribed to all bugs that it needs to be aware of
<zequence> Rosco2: I've started that work some time ago. I believe the group should automatically get all bug reports for those projects - have you found that it doesn't?
<zequence> Or, packages, rather
<zequence> But, projects too, I suppose, if you subscribe to them
<Rosco2> I have received some emails. But based on the popularity of some packages - I thought they would be more high traffic.
<zequence> Rosco2: If you want to help out, you are welcome to make that team more functional
<zequence> maybe it's just rare that people report bugs? You could compare by looking at the bugs for a specific package, and see if you got all mail about it
<Rosco2> Yeah - sure. Triaging hardware related stuff is tricky for me.
<Rosco2> But I have learn't a few of the tricks that the Bug Squad use.
<Rosco2> To get people involved & triaging in a consistent way I mean
<Rosco2> Will check my mails against what packages have had bugs submitted recently
<Rosco2> zequence: My inbox contained lots of bug reports from ubuntustudio-met, -live, linux-rt, ubuntustudio, -live-setting etc.
<Rosco2> zequence: There was a blender bug, and when I clicked around on other blender bugs, every time USBugs were on the "May receive notifications" section.
<Rosco2> OTOH, when I went to bug page for audacity, there were not many bugs where USBugs were subscribed.
<Rosco2> Maybe it is a packages/meta packages allocation/categorisation thing? 
<Rosco2> OK, now I understand. US-Devel team are subscribed to these packages: https://bugs.launchpad.net/~ubuntustudio-dev/+packagebugs
<Rosco2> US-Bugs team are subscribed to a smaller set of individual packages: https://bugs.launchpad.net/~ubuntustudio-bugs/+packagebugs
<Rosco2> We could increase the list for US-Bugs to other important packages, but maybe there would be too much noise?
<Rosco2> At least that fits with what emails I received. So it is not a launchpad/email problem.
<zequence> Rosco2: The whole point of ubuntustudio-bugs team is to receive all relevant bugs, so it's fine if they receive everything
<zequence> Rosco2: ubuntustudio-dev really only needs to receive bugs from projects that team is a part of
<zequence> By *everything* I mean anything that is multimedia related, and on the Ubuntu Studio ISO
<OvenWerks> zequence: how much stress to test with? If I run cpu hogs my max goes way up, but they are running the cpus at 100% too. which is not at all normal for audio work.
<OvenWerks> With all 4 cpus at 100% my max is in the 4500 range.
<OvenWerks> with only 1 cpu hog pulling one cpu to 100% the max goes up to 7500 which seems odd.
<OvenWerks> Running a video and a sound generator gives max of 15 to 25.
<zequence> OvenWerks: What is most interesting is to see the random xrun, IMO
<OvenWerks> I will have to install the two other kernels to test more.
<zequence> OvenWerks: You can have no xruns for 2h, until you move the mouse, and something graphical happens
<OvenWerks> No xruns at all so far
<OvenWerks> Jack has been running for 2 or 3 days now
<zequence> OvenWerks: One classic way to cause all cores to work is compiling something big - making sure in the compilation command that all cores are used
<zequence> Like, linux
<OvenWerks> My default setup is now that jack starts with session and paulse goes through that.
<OvenWerks> I was running "stress"
<zequence> OvenWerks: I understand you took special care in making sure all your HW components are tuned right?
<OvenWerks> Yes.
<zequence> OvenWerks: Would be interesting to see if you configured all of that "wrong"
<OvenWerks> Some things I can't do like add hyperthreading
<zequence> OvenWerks: If that has a great impact, we should absolutely document it and make it available to our users
<OvenWerks> I am also running performance not ondemand which on this machine gives xruns up till about 10ms
<OvenWerks> Interestingly, ondemand creates more heat than performance at high cpu usage
<OvenWerks> It seems that running different cores at different speeds creates more heat.
<OvenWerks> anyway it is family time for the day. This is a long weekend for us.
<zequence> OvenWerks: See you later Oven
<zequence> Len, I mean :P
<zequence> I made Ross admin of ubuntustudio-bugs team, as he's to help us with making it subscribe to relevant bugs
<Rosco2> Slowly subscribing to packages in ubuntustudio-meta!
<Rosco2> Check progress here: https://bugs.launchpad.net/~ubuntustudio-bugs/+packagebugs
<Rosco2> It gives good stats on the bugs - there are a few to work on :-)
<zequence> Rosco2: I wonder if it would be a good idea to recommend debian-multimedia devs to become members of that group. Our versions of packages aren't always the same as in Debian, since we sync from their development release
<zequence> In either case, when a bug has been identified as valid, one needs to check if the bug is also affecting whatever Debian version of the package, and report it also in Debian
<zequence> Once there is a fix, we either sync from Debian, or do a patch. For our development release, we should always sync, unless it's really late in the cycle. For stable release it might be better to patch.
<zequence> And the patch should only fix the bug, not update to a newer release, or we sync. But, I suppose you know this already.
<zequence> I'm probably not making perfect sense this late on a saturday evening :)
<zequence> Yep, there are a few bugs there
<Rosco2> I suppose I could let them know on debian-multimedia mailing list and ask if anyone wants to join
<Rosco2> You are right, that perhaps we should pinch some stuff from Ubuntu Bug Squad, and tailor it to our needs and specific deb-multi upstream
<Rosco2> And what you say about when to patch, when to sync etc. could also be added to the wiki
#ubuntustudio-devel 2014-05-18
<zequence_> Rosco2: I came to think about yet another possibility - creating a new team for Debian Multimedia, like ubuntustudio-bugs. Since they have a different set of packages to us
<zequence_> Rosco2: Possibly, we could just join that team instead
<zequence_> Rosco2: Also, lp has an API. Been a while since I tried using it. Might be possible to make subscriptions with a script, which would save a lot of time
<zequence> we could rename ubuntustudio-bugs debian-multimedia-bugs. If we want to do that
<zequence> And then create a new team again called ubuntustudio-bugs. All though, if a script could take care of package subscriptions, it would not be a lot of work just creating a new team from scratch, and then do the subscriptions
<zequence> Well, just thinking out loud
<Rosco2> Hmmm. I had been thinking of asking if we could have a small number join the existing Debian Multimedia team on LP.
<zequence> Rosco2: Does it subscribe to packages?
<Rosco2> That was based on the fact that we could encourage people to join US-bugs, but they could only do basic triage
<Rosco2> I thing the Deb-maint team are listed as the maintainer of the packages
<Rosco2> I was going to ask them if they then have the power to set importance and extra stuff that only "Bug Control" can do.
<zequence> Ah, right
<Rosco2> I am listed as maintainer for one package, but I can't do much, so I am not sure
<Rosco2> API would be useful for the meta packages we know we are interested in.
<Rosco2> But then I just started looking at ubuntustudio-desktop, and it has lots of stuff we don't need to care about like gedit
<Rosco2> But some stuff we probably do like alsa-utils
<Rosco2> I will have a look, and see if it helps with photography etc.
<zequence> Rosco2: DE stuff is not something we should care about at all
<zequence> Rosco2: Only the multimedia metas
<zequence> ..as we don't really have our own DE, though ours is slightly custom
<Rosco2> Yeah - you are right. Skipping that one.
<zequence> Our main concern is of course the multimedia packages we distribute, while I could see a point in keeping an eye out for a bigger scope. I would assume debian-multimedia maintains everything there, except for a few things, like pulseaudio
<zequence> Pulseaudio already gest a lot of attention, so we don't really need to do much there, except for jack - pulseaudio integration.
<Rosco2> I spotted a few packages that come up in audio discussions like pavucontrol & apps like audacious.
<Rosco2> Maybe I will put it last in the pile incase they are not listed in the other multimedia metas
<Rosco2> Funny you mention Pulesaudio.
<Rosco2> I subscribed to that and there a hundreds of bugs.
<zequence> Rosco2: I suppose any multimedia application in the desktop meta already gets attention. Not sure what would be best there.
<zequence> pulseaudio is important of course, since it's a core component
<Rosco2> As the PA - Jack bridge was part of the PA source I was forced to get bugs for the whole lot.
<zequence> Yeah
<Rosco2> Will try some of the filters to whittle it down
<Rosco2> I think you can filter on importance or something like that.
<zequence> Rosco2: Ah, I remember when trying out the PPA, that getting info on bugs is pretty easy. But, that doesn't help forwarding them, unless someone sets up a bot to forward stuff.
<zequence> Also, we could set up a mail list for that team
<zequence> We used to have a ubuntustudio-bugs at list.ubuntu for a little while, and I tried using that, but came to the conclusion at the time that it wasn't very practical and had that mail list deleted
<zequence> API, not PPA :P
<zequence> It's a bit too late in the evening for me
<zequence> I'm turning in. Catch you later
<Rosco2> Mailing list is probably good if the team builds up, and we want to help teach each other how to triage
<Rosco2> Yeah - same here - busy day tomorrow
#ubuntustudio-devel 2015-05-12
<Sakrecoer> can you guys enter login in the wiki?
<Sakrecoer> hm.. well now i can...
<Sakrecoer> probably ubottu blessed me with some computer love :)
#ubuntustudio-devel 2015-05-13
<OvenWerks> zequence: I think I may have actually found the bug in qmidiroute... Not bad considering I am not a c++ programer. I will have to try building it as is (to make sure I can) then add a line and rebuild to see if it fixes things.
<OvenWerks> zequence: ok built and tested src from dev website. Bug is reproducable. Time to try fixing it.
<OvenWerks> zequence: fixed file tested works correctly... well it looks like it does. A at least when I load a config file and then save it to another name, both files are the same. That was not the case before.
 * OvenWerks still knows next to nothing about c++
<OvenWerks> zequence: I tried sending email to one of the authors (the one who made the last change in the changelog) So far the address in the changelog has failed. We will see if the one on the webpage is any better. This is hosted by the AMS website, but does not seem to be under the same author.
<OvenWerks> Last fix was in 2009, so I am not that hopeful of getting a reply.
<zequence> OvenWerks: Ok. So, let's make your fix a patch and do a SRU for the packages. We can start with Debian. 
<zequence> If you like, you could become a debian-multmedia member and you can do the fix yourself
<zequence> Making changes in their repos is a bit different from ours, since they only use git
<zequence> OvenWerks: Did you try the mailing list?
<zequence> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/alsamodular-devel
<zequence> The project page is at http://sourceforge.net/projects/alsamodular/
<zequence> Ah, wait
<zequence> Yes, they are all in one
<zequence> So, you could make a ticket actually. A bug report
<zequence> with a prepared patch, if you like
<zequence> There's a "patches" ticket
<zequence> Your patch would be among 14 in the history of alsa-modular :).
<zequence> It's of course better if you can have it fixed upstream first. But, you can use the same patch for all released packages when you do the SRU
<zequence> The schedule for Wily is out https://wiki.ubuntu.com/WilyWerewolf/ReleaseSchedule
<zequence> The draft for it, that is
#ubuntustudio-devel 2015-05-14
<oliver__> Hi. I come from the user chanel. But it seems to be a more developer like problem with the Xorg Server in 14.04.2 LTS. Perhaps anyone hre has an idea to my problem.
<oliver__> Since Ubuntu Studio 14.04.2 the Nvidia-Optimus causes crashes when closing windows. but not all the time.
<oliver__> No problems so far with the version 14.04.1. Any Ideas?
<OvenWerks> zequence: any idea which version of the eq10q package debian has?
<zequence> OvenWerks: You can use rmadison to find out. Use the option "-u debian"
<zequence> In Jessie: 2.0~beta5.1~repack0-2
<OvenWerks> zequence: as of trusty we have 1.2 (gui is funny)vivid has 2.0/beta5.1
<zequence> Wheezy has that version too
<OvenWerks> I don't know if it is worth while pulling that back to LTS or not. The calf eqs are broken/won't fix
<zequence> What do you mean, broken/won't fix?
<OvenWerks> So I am looking for a replacement
<OvenWerks> take a look at the generic controls in ardour.
<zequence> Backports are always possible. We were supposed to do that a lot more for trusty
<OvenWerks> the controls are exposed as if they are in db, but they need ratio input to work.
<OvenWerks> The dev says it is ardour's fault (and I guess qtracktoprs fault too?)
<zequence> Perhaps they do the same fault in implementation
<OvenWerks> Anyway the bug has been there a long time... so it can't automated
<OvenWerks> Could be. It is just that those two apps are the standard apps a plugin will be used with
<OvenWerks> The standard test against apps in linux.
<zequence> If the fix is to do something wrong, and hacky, I can understand a no fix stance.
<zequence> It's quite possible some code was copied from one app to another
<OvenWerks> http://x42-plugins.com/x42/x42-eq looks nice. I have been trying it, but it is not released yet.
<zequence> I've noticed a lot of the sequencer have the same alsa midi bugs
<OvenWerks> Anyway, off to work.
<zequence> Either the bug is in ALSA itself, or they all do the same exact implementation of some parts
<zequence> It's a red day for us, so no work today
<zequence> Red, meaning a holiday
<OvenWerks> zequence: for us (not US) it is monday.
<OvenWerks> zequence: As for the calf eq plugins, I think they are what has the problem. The calf reverb is fine and works as expected. (aside from the bug that sometimes give 1000% output :)  But the levels work right anyway.
<OvenWerks> zequence: however, even if the calf eq did work as it says iot should, it would not be that usable for things requiring automation or remote control just because ratios are not intuitive to use the way + or - db are. I am not sure why the GUI is in db for levels but the external controls are in ratio.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2015-05-15
<zequence> OvenWerks: Ok. Seems strange then.
<argumento> hi all
<DalekSec> Howdy.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2015-05-16
<sakrecoer_idle> thanks for dat ardour3 udgrade <3
#ubuntustudio-devel 2015-05-17
<OvenWerks> zequence: Bug #1455920 I have a private branch I would like to merge to fix this...
<ubottu> bug 1455920 in qmidiroute (Ubuntu) "settings from saved config files are not loaded correctly" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1455920
<OvenWerks> I don't seem to be able to put a merge request in, but have added a patch diff to the bug.
 * OvenWerks is still working at trying to contact the maintainer.
<zequence> OvenWerks: Did you try create a patch ticket for the sourceforge project?
<zequence> Might be better to first create a bug ticket tho
<zequence> OvenWerks: I think there's a risk that you might be overcomplicating the menu ideas
<zequence> I'll answer the mail list later. Will be a bit busy for a day or so
<OvenWerks> zequence: And I thought I was simplifying  :) Right now I am just throwing ideas for people to shoot down or modify.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2016-05-16
<cub> I got my IRC Ops approved for #ubuntustudio now. I'm thinking of a minor update of the topic "General music making and studio chatter is allowed"
<cub> to something along the lines of "General creativity and Studio chatter is allowed." to not sound so audio focused.
<Rosco2> cub, +1 from me
<sakrecoer> cub: good idea! :)
#ubuntustudio-devel 2016-05-17
<zequence> OvenWerks: Call me slow, but it seems mixdowns don't work on ardour if the PA bridge is active
<zequence> Haven't yet updated to latest, so maybe it was fixed - but that is pretty serious. We need to make that problem go away somehow
<OvenWerks> zequence: possible
<OvenWerks> There are a few possible reasons for this:
<OvenWerks> 1) PA is also connected to another audio interface.
<OvenWerks> 2) PA is connected to the audio device.
<OvenWerks> 3) there is a newer version of jackdbus that allows freewheel to disconnect all outputs (I don't think so)
<zequence> PA is only connected to the sink and source of the jack module
<zequence> But, it's still PA causing the problem through the bridge
<OvenWerks> desktop audio should not be able to be heard while doing mixdown
<zequence> If I disable PA, ardour mixdowns work fine
<OvenWerks>  if it is, then see 2)
<zequence> PA is connected to the jack module sink and source. Nothing else
<OvenWerks> even internal to jack?
<zequence> Yes, that is what I'm saying
<zequence> I'm not saying the module is connected to various jack apps
<zequence> Though, it is that too
<OvenWerks> Then we need a button to disable the bridge in _controls.
<zequence> HOw about we fix the problem in the first place instead?
<OvenWerks> zequence: that would require changing pa_jacksource/sink
<zequence> Either it is a design flaw in jack, or each client needs to be versitaile somehow
<OvenWerks> I think the PA jack module is not honering the freewheel signal properly.
<zequence> Yeah, this probably only occurs with PA being connected as a jack client 
<zequence> Well, let's make sure it is known and try to find a way to fix it
<zequence> The bridge is just an example utility really, so it could use more work anyway
<OvenWerks> zequence: yes. including double buffering so increase latency as needed.
<OvenWerks> (actually, I think it just needs buffering at all)
<zequence> Maybe that would take some load off the CPU as well? (just guessing)
<OvenWerks> zequence: yes. Right now latency forces time constrants on any sample rate conversion.
<OvenWerks> So far as I know PA already does sliding latency with the audio devices (ALSA)
<zequence> Only someone from the jack side of things will be interesting in working out a fix, and even in that bunch, the sum of people that includes becomes quite small
<OvenWerks> The sum of people who are both interested and also have the time is even smaller.
<OvenWerks> The origianl auther of the bridge has been responsive to change requests in the past... but those have been mostly passing paramerters from the jackdbus detector to the source/sink
<zequence> Yeah, I remember David expressed he would have liked to do more, almost as if he was feeling guilty because he wasn't
<zequence> He doesn't seem to be on IRC anymore
<zequence> ..not as much, anyway
<OvenWerks> IRC can waste a lot of time if we let it :)
#ubuntustudio-devel 2016-05-18
<OvenWerks> zequence_: I finally actually tried exporting a session in Ardour with my normal PA-jack bridge setup running (6 in and 6 out channels from/to jack) and had no problems with the export.. The export time was less than session time so free wheel worked fine.
<zequence_> OvenWerks: I'm still failing every time. 
<zequence_> Always need to disable the bridge first
#ubuntustudio-devel 2016-05-19
<OvenWerks> zequence: have you tried turning all audio interfaces off in pavucontrol? (internal too)
<OvenWerks> disks, aka gnome-disks, appears to have a use after all. I had a drive that kept quitting on me. Drives has a "drive settings" dialog which showed standby off, I turned it on and off again and the drive seems to have been fine since.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2016-05-21
<chetanska> hello people. just made the switch to linux and proudly peeled off the microsoft label. now none of the many players I have will play dvd disks. tried sudo apt-get update and sudo apt-get upgrade but still not working. any insights are welcome
#ubuntustudio-devel 2017-05-16
<elopio> eylul: OvenWerks: hello! Would you like to join us this Friday to talk about ubuntu-studio in ubuntuonair.com?
<elopio> we just talk for 30 minutes, nothing too complicated and no need to prepare anything fancy. Take a look at some of the past episodes: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i4a-N-kxPoY&list=PL-qBHd6_LXWapZwnu0LpHE6JiTZhUGSSy&index=14
<eylul> hi elopio
<elopio> o/
<eylul> I am actually, a pretty new volunteer (about a  year) so probably not best person to have there, but thank you for asking? :) (I remember seeing the ubuntu mate coverage, a few weeks back, found it through mastodon I think?) 
<eylul> ^ elopio 
 * eylul is also is at mastodon.art/@eylul and it is a good way to reach. (is afk for a bit)
<elopio> eylul: I'm sure you can share some interesting details about that year of contributions. Also, it would be nice to hear a different perspective, most of the people we talk to are just programmers.
<elopio> I think it would be very interesting to talk about your art, and why you chose to help ubuntu studio.
<eylul> elopio: in that case sure. :)  I'll be happy to. let me know, how to reach you, etc. :)
<elopio> eylul: awesome! What's a good time for you on friday?
<eylul> elopio: I am in european timezone (roughly speaking) so anytime that afternoon or evening, (preferably not too late into the evening through) 
<elopio> eylul: 16UTC? Any time is good for us, so feel free to pick if that doesn't work.
<elopio> and please give me your email address so I can send you the calendar invite.
<eylul> elopio: that works. and I am PMing you my email address.
<elopio> :D
<elopio> we do this on google hangouts. I will give you the link to join like 30 minutes before we start so you can test the connection and stuff.
<elopio> it would be nice if you can show us how ubuntu studio looks like, and some of its nice features. Then we talk about random things.
<OvenWerks> is that 11am pdt?
<elopio> if there's something you would like to talk about, just go ahead. I'm interested in things like how to contribute, and what's happening on this new release cycle.
<eylul> hi Len
<eylul> https://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/fixedtime.html?iso=20170519T16&am=30
<OvenWerks> Hmm, I thought I was -700
<eylul> summer time. UTC doesn't shift. :)
<elopio> eylul: it would be veeery cool if you show us some of your pictures and drawings.
<elopio> OvenWerks: can you join us too?
<OvenWerks> probably it says that is 9am so kids in school and Yf not up yet.
<eylul> (Ovenwerks if you want to join but time needs shifting, my schedule is flexible that day)
<OvenWerks> I would be audio only... no camera
<elopio> OvenWerks: whatever works for you.
<elopio> OvenWerks: please give me your email to send you the invite.
<OvenWerks> it should have hit you as a pm
<OvenWerks> elopio: ^^
<OvenWerks> this friday = may 19?
<elopio> OvenWerks: that's right.
<eylul> elopio: you received the PM with email? :)
<elopio> yes, I got your emails. As soon as I have some free time I'll set up the stuff in youtube and the calendar.
<eylul> no rush :) alright in that case I am mostly afk for the evening.
<eylul> OvenWerks btw I forgot to ask. this sunday. what times would work for you? 
<eylul> I know sundays are a bit awkward for you so..
<OvenWerks> I honestly don't know. from 1500 utc on I am gone... I am not up before 1330-1400... back at 2100utc :)
<eylul> so we either try to do it before 15:00 or after 21:00 or if we absolutely can't do that we'll coordinate with you after (but I'd rather you be there as well if at all possible)
<eylul> ovenwerks
<eylul> do you mind sending this to the ML?
#ubuntustudio-devel 2017-05-17
<OvenWerks> Ardour 5.9 is out.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2017-05-18
<OvenWerks> LAC is live streaming - https://www.youtube.com/user/UniJeanMonnetUJM/live
<eylul> OvenWerks: do you have a copy of 17.04 installed for tomorrow?
#ubuntustudio-devel 2017-05-19
<elopio> eylul: OvenWerks: did you get the calendar invite?
<eylul> elopio: yes I did
<OvenWerks> Aye
<elopio> eylul: OvenWerks: great. I'm setting things up here and will send you the link soon.
 * OvenWerks is watching Paul Davis talk at LAC earlier today.
<elopio> OvenWerks: eylul: https://hangouts.google.com/hangouts/_/hzgiok234resvkj3r5viogkz7qf
<eylul> Hangouts doesn't support firefox? *grumble*
<elopio> eylul: no, sorry, they are fighting. chromium?
<eylul> >.> *goes to upload chromium*
<eylul> :D
<OvenWerks> so much for standards... :P
<eylul> I wonder if down the line tox chat can do this.
<eylul> I mean it already has video group chat but not sure how one would handle streaming
 * OvenWerks downloading chromium
 * OvenWerks suggests background updates is a bad thing (even background update checking)
<OvenWerks> I think the idea of using xubuntu's desktop as is, while nice and easy, is not quite correct.
<eylul> ovenwerks: I like our customizations and defaults
<eylul> so I agree with you
<OvenWerks> Hmm, I just did an upgrade in 1704. It got to one of the packages and said I had changed the config file what do I want to do
<OvenWerks> I chose show the files side by side.
<OvenWerks> The install just continued on it's merry way and never did show me the side by side view
<OvenWerks> I am pretty sure it was a change I made from the GUI to not do auto upgrades
<OvenWerks> Ya, I live on the Wet Coast.
<OvenWerks> reboot back to LTS
#ubuntustudio-devel 2017-05-21
<eylul> hi Ross
<eylul> there is like half an hour to our meeting time but do tag my name when everyone is here :)
<Rosco2> Hi eylul, all ready - just going for a cup of tea :-)
<eylul> *has just done that :D*
<OvenWerks> coffee
<OvenWerks> black
<OvenWerks> (609 AM here)
<eylul> :D
<OvenWerks> Did anyone see Paul Davis' talk at LAC?
<eylul> Not yet
<eylul> do you have the link?
<eylul> *is trying to finish the daily editbacklog post before the meeting*
<OvenWerks> https://youtu.be/tZbMfyBGPKo?t=8594
 * OvenWerks did not watch it live
<OvenWerks> That was promising
<OvenWerks> good morning sakrecoer 
<sakrecoer> Greegins OvenWerks :)
<sakrecoer> Good to read you! :)
<eylul> hi Sakrecoer
<Rosco2> hi sakrecoer !
<eylul> I don't know if Kryten is coming at this hour
<eylul> but since ovenwerks is short on time, maybe we can start now
<sakrecoer> hi Rosco2 and eylul 
<sakrecoer> yes! 
<OvenWerks> I am not short on time. have about 1.5 hours
<OvenWerks> but since I am up...
<eylul> ohh! sorry :D
<eylul> but lets start. so umm Sakrecoer *hands the microphone*
<sakrecoer> hrm hrm.. 1-2 1-2 mic check
<eylul> :D
<sakrecoer> so my work ate me.
<eylul> *nods*
<sakrecoer> it's been incredibly intense for me. I'd spent the last 15 years working max 50%, and now i am way over 100% so i simply cannot catch up with US
<sakrecoer> i feel quite bad for not saying anything earlier...
<sakrecoer> backlog piled up, and after a while it ended up in some kindof feedback loop, where i wouldn't really dare joinging in, becuase i hadn't joined in for so long...
<sakrecoer> i would like to be able to contribute again, but i cannot tell when that would be possible. of course, if i did come back to help it would be on your terms
<OvenWerks> this is all volunteer... lots of people do almost nothing for months
<OvenWerks> We are all on add a bit when we have time
<Rosco2> Yeah - there are more tasks than people. As long as we have a few goals and a task list, anyone can pick up a task when they have time
 * eylul agrees with what ovenwerks said
<OvenWerks> Anyway, I repulled -controls and then dropped my latest stuff on top.
<eylul> yay Ovenwerks! :)
<sakrecoer> i've got the impression lots of stuff have happened to -controls :)
<OvenWerks> There are two scripts: /usr/sbin/ubuntustudio-system and /usr/bin/ubuntustudio
<OvenWerks> /usr/bin/ubuntustudio-controls is the second :P
<OvenWerks> sakrecoer: I had to basically start over
<sakrecoer> wow!
<OvenWerks> The original is run wholely as root
<OvenWerks> we can not do any audio settings from root because jack runs as user
<eylul> :)
<OvenWerks> So now /usr/sbin/ubuntustudio-system does rtaudio fix, cpu gov set, intel boost control and can stop/start cron
<Rosco2> Do you think there will be something ready for us to play with soon?
<OvenWerks> So far -system seems to do all the right things. I have simplified the rtaudio setup from searching for a user login and setting it to audio and controlling memcontrol, into all one ting
<OvenWerks> Rosco2: My goal is to get things back to what -controls can do now and then push
<sakrecoer> sounds fair
<eylul> guys this is very important discussion that I am glad we are having but maybe we should discuss leadership transition while we have sakrecoer here? :)
<Rosco2> yep
<eylul> *feels bad interrupting*
<Rosco2> :-)
<OvenWerks> So far the CPU governor and intel boost control works from the GUI
<sakrecoer> thank you eylul. i also have a few hours today, so its fine :)
<sakrecoer> but you are right we should talk about it today
<OvenWerks> When I get the rtaudio fix working from the gui too, I will remove the exess GUI stuff and release
<sakrecoer> i like the ideas you put forward on the list Rosco2 
<sakrecoer> oops.. i got mixed up sorry OvenWerks, go on
<OvenWerks> Thats it no problem
<OvenWerks> (this is irc)
<sakrecoer> hehe
<eylul> :D
<sakrecoer> so what do you reckon i should do with my launchpad privilidges? i don't think there is any repo where i am the sole admin
<OvenWerks> I would suggest that because we are few with little time, that we start some of the polishing stuff for artwork for the next LTS now.
<OvenWerks> sakrecoer: there is no harm leaving them as is.
<sakrecoer> ok :)
<Rosco2> I think there is only Ubuntu Studio Core wher there is only Len & set as admin
<Rosco2> But if Set is still around at least part time I don't see the issue
<eylul> it might be best to add you in too rosco2
<sakrecoer> yes, if it can accelerate or facilitate your work Rosco2 i think that is a good idea.
<Rosco2> Well I don't think it slows anyone down
<sakrecoer> good to read that :)
<Rosco2> It would only if we were creating new teams etc
<eylul> isn't core also used to add new members in?
<eylul> *has actually very little knowledge of what these accesses entails*
 * OvenWerks has access but has not checked either
<eylul> also does core membership affect our ability to speak on behalf of the team to larger ubuntu community on behalf of ubuntustudio
<eylul> because that turned out to be a bit of a problem while sakrecoer was away
<Rosco2> Just checked - US COre is the administrator of US devel
<sakrecoer> there is a risk that my membership expires, isn't it?
<sakrecoer> no, its set to never expire.
<Rosco2> But then Len should have the power to administrate subteams
<sakrecoer> i think Len has those powers
<Rosco2> what I meant :-)
<sakrecoer> :) 
<OvenWerks> I think zequence left me with whatever he had.
<sakrecoer> it seems i am the owner. I'm have mixed feelings about it.
<sakrecoer> i certainly trust you guys, but it gives me lots of accountability for stuff that i'm not really involved with anymore...
<sakrecoer> or at the moment
<sakrecoer> if you get my pidoes that make sense?
<eylul> *nods*
<OvenWerks> I think that would be true for any of us
<sakrecoer> good point OvenWerks 
<sakrecoer> we have a lot of teams in launchpad..
<Rosco2> Well most launchpad stuff can be managed by members of the dev team I suspect 
<Rosco2> Only rarely is the power of the COre team required
<OvenWerks> it would not hurt to spread that around a bit more though
<Rosco2> I suppose most importantly we should agree to what we should do to avoid Set receiving too many mails becasue his name is everywhere
<eylul> *nods*
<sakrecoer> Rosco2: thank you! although, i think i can live with that :) i have good filters. but maybe to save some electricity...
<OvenWerks> I was going to say, I don't think it is that much. (I think I see them all too)
<Rosco2> Yeah most contacts probably come to the list or IRC
<sakrecoer> and maybe i'm not the best guy to contact for inquires and such..
<OvenWerks> sakrecoer: you should feel free to pass messages on to someone better at it.
<OvenWerks> leading means knowing who to forward to
<eylul> Ovenwerks I think it is less issue of knowing, more an issue of having time and brainspace to do the forwarding
<sakrecoer> these guys reach out a few month back: http://www.openinventionnetwork.com/ but i'm pretty sure its the only time it happened via my private lin
<OvenWerks> true..
<sakrecoer> eylul: yes
<eylul> also being the contact point. Kryten and I couldn't get anywhere with website issue in part I assume because communication wasn't going through a designated lead etc
<sakrecoer> fortunately, as mentioned, i haven't got more
<sakrecoer> good point eylul
<sakrecoer> and i have to say, you should really be promoted somehow eylul. <3
<Rosco2> +1
<eylul> :D I would be happy to help as much as I can especially with the communication
<eylul> but it is important I think that it isn't one person, if at all possible
<sakrecoer> +2
<sakrecoer> :)
<eylul> when I am at a conference or residency (as happened in february) I am MIA, no helping it..
<eylul> which is primary reason why I think council idea needs to be implemented (because every single one of us are in same boat)
<Rosco2> Yes - unless Set is willing to carry on, or someone else violently wants to take over :-)
<sakrecoer> i agree. how do we make that change reflect through out the community and our tool-set
<OvenWerks> That was my earlier comment that more people could be added to core
<eylul> Rosco2 that would require somebody who has enough TIME to want to do a power grab. XD
<Rosco2> One of us (even me) could draft someting based on Xubuntu
<eylul> *nods at Ovenwerks
<Rosco2> Who would want to be core/council?
<eylul> wait, we have an option to NOT be in it? :P
<sakrecoer> haha
<OvenWerks> anyone who has been around for over a year could be added
<Rosco2> So we all turned up and we are stuck with it :-)
<OvenWerks> The main thing is not to add someone who just shows up
<eylul> agreed
<eylul> one year or one release?
<eylul> one release cycle*
<sakrecoer> Hotel California of FOSS
<OvenWerks> :)
<eylul> Rosco2: yep
<sakrecoer> agreed
<Rosco2> 1 year goes so fast - it is probably about right
<eylul> you guys do realize this pretty much means we are all stuck with this for a year
<eylul> right?
<eylul> (just checking)
<eylul> :D
<OvenWerks> I don't think that is quite what was said. The year is the one past. All of us have "life" first
<sakrecoer> yes
<eylul> Ovenwerks: what I mean is that we don't have anyone, right now who is active except everyone here, MAYBE luke and kryten
<eylul> and that next person won't be eligible until next year
<OvenWerks> We actually have more people here than we did a few years ago
<eylul> that is true
<Rosco2> We could ask them if those two if they want in
<eylul> *nods*
<Rosco2> Should core tam have a limit?
<OvenWerks> Luke is a watcher. He will make suggestions, but likely not do anything that requires inet access from a known source
<eylul> who else.. cfhowlett too I suppose although I haven't heard from them recently.
<sakrecoer> the thing with core team is that it is quite a bit of power over quite a bit of people's OS:es...
<OvenWerks> sakrecoer: yes, but, what I have seen here is not people making wierd and wonderful changes.
<sakrecoer> cfhowlett is extremely active on the facebook PR tools for ubuntu studio
<Rosco2> I am mixed about it. Of course people outside of core can still have important roles
 * OvenWerks probably comes closest to that...
<OvenWerks> Rosco2: it is more about backup than anything
<eylul> ok can somebody explain what exactly does core-team entail.
<eylul> what are the accesses,
<eylul> what being member of gives in terms of power (outside the said accesses)
<Rosco2> it sort of owns all the other us teams
<sakrecoer> it's the launchpad mothership of ubuntu studio, the team from which everything else stems. afaiu
<Rosco2> People can be kicked out - added etc
<OvenWerks> Which is still just access stuff
<sakrecoer> *nods*
<Rosco2> Yes - in my mind the core team were the "coucil" - but it doesn't haver o be
<Rosco2> have to be
<eylul> if membership access goes through the core team, it is a beneficial thing for all of the council (or at least enough) to have. to be able to promptly add (and remove -if ever needed, which I hope not) members
<OvenWerks> Rosco2: I think you are involved in Ubuntu outside of just Studio, is that correct?
<eylul> (in terms of remove, don't think kicking somebody off  a team, first thing i can think is somebody getting hacked and another one of us removing them in a hurry so that they can get it fixed, then adding them back etc)
<Rosco2> Not really - I sometimes try and look after packages I work on in Debian.
<eylul> (in terms of adding, not losing volunteers)
<Rosco2> But in Ubuntu it is mostly US
<OvenWerks> ok
<Rosco2> By the way - i looked at Cadence
<Rosco2> Alessio had started packaging it in Debian Multimedia
<sakrecoer> i see Rosco2 and eylul fit in core
<OvenWerks> if Cadence was included it would have to be a somewhat stripped version
<Rosco2> Should I try and pick it up again?
<sakrecoer> maybe krytarik is interested too?
<Rosco2> OK ovenwerks, I will ask separately
<eylul> sakrecoer I don't know. i hope?
<OvenWerks> Sorry I was thinking of Carla. Carla would be much more useful than cadence
<OvenWerks> Rosco2: A lot of what we are planning with -controls would do tha same as cadence and the two might clash
<eylul> (having carla by default would be amazing!)
<Rosco2> Thats why I asked - I could also try Carla - but I know that will be harder
 * OvenWerks tried packaging carla and gave up.
<Rosco2> I will have a go - hopefully others in DMT will help too
<sakrecoer> \o/
<OvenWerks> The debian packaging tools expect the application to be built with certain tools to be easy. Other ways can be done, but the packager has to have a lot more packaging foo than I am ever likely to have
<Rosco2> From memory - build system waf was a pain
<Rosco2> and also expecting to link with certain libraries which is against the Debian way
<OvenWerks> carla doesn't waf, I don't think, but doesn't use auto tools either
<Rosco2> library version I meant
<OvenWerks> Rosco2: also carla.lv2 (and any other plugin) should be built static
<Rosco2> that is sacrilidge in Debian
<OvenWerks> Then debian is broken
<eylul> *nods* is a direct PPA something we could consider, for things that are not directly possible to package for debian?
<OvenWerks> A packaging system shold not be based on religion
<Rosco2> :-)
<OvenWerks> eylul: yes we could do that
<eylul> godot has been running into a similar problem
<eylul> we could even get help from existing developers of some of these in that case
<Rosco2> Yes - I think we could have a ppa for non-debian sourced packages and also backports
<Rosco2> becasue backports necer get sponsored at the moment
<Rosco2> it is all about snaps
<eylul> (is that why kubuntu have a backports ppa?)
<OvenWerks> snaps for plugins or anything that loads plugins will not work
<Rosco2> What is happening with my fingers?
<eylul> :D
<Rosco2> snaps are about containment
<OvenWerks> snaps will not work for a jack client either I think.
<eylul> well down the line snaps can support plugins etc, but yeah in short it doesn't work quite for our needs for many things (tagging elopio)
<Rosco2> plugins are the exact opposite
<eylul> (so that he can see this part as it might be helpful for them)
<Rosco2> I read about a pulseaudio snap recently
<Rosco2> We would need a jack one, then .....
<OvenWerks> Rosco2: the jackd2 and jackd1 packages should include the "include" files (-dev) part f things.
<OvenWerks> if pulse is snapped badly enough, we may have to just drop pulse
<Rosco2> My time has been limited to play with snaps - so I stick to normal packages for now
<OvenWerks> speaking of which, pulseaudio's jack bridge is my next project when I am happy with -controls
<eylul> :D
<eylul> (the nice things about snaps, PPAs etc is that.. we don't have to choose one)
<eylul> (we can have apps in as snaps and I expect down the line apps like krita might go that route when the issues get ironed out)
<eylul> (and audio software migth still be in PPA based solutions)
<OvenWerks> Rosco2: if pulse becomes snapped, will there still be a deb?
<Rosco2> Yes
<OvenWerks> Rosco2: do you know if it is possible to spec deb over snap in seeds?
<Rosco2> I am not sure it is even possible to seed snaps yet
<OvenWerks> \o/
<sakrecoer> i noticed krita now has appimages http://appimage.org/
 * OvenWerks hopes snaps go the way of upstart and unity
<Rosco2> They are good for gettng unpackaged stuff out there
<Rosco2> And for upstreams to control what is distibuted
<OvenWerks> I would guess tha
<eylul> rosco2 *nods*
<OvenWerks>  To be honest, I know and agree there is a plce for snap packaging. I kind of feel like it has been pushed as the solution to everything
<eylul> it makes sense for easier to build servers etc
<eylul> we need modular solutions for a bit less experienced people to safely run things
 * OvenWerks server is still 14.04
<eylul> but yeah for things like audio it might never be ok. and that is ok?
<sakrecoer> to me its ok :)
<sakrecoer> haha
<eylul> (and make no mistake, we need easier ways to self-host mini servers for individuals)
<OvenWerks> in a lot of ways, a snap is another way of building a static binary
<eylul> *nods*
<Rosco2> Yes - saves the problem of supporting multiple versions of all the libraries you depend upon
<OvenWerks> in fact, if I could deploy a static binary using a snap it may be worth while
<Rosco2> And as everything is contained - you can run it on whatever version of Ubuntu
<Rosco2> Which is why I think backports have not had much attention lately
<OvenWerks> The ardour.org downloadable binaries include their own version of gtk2... which is why they run everywhere.
<Rosco2> Bit of a security nightmare for distributions though.
<eylul> how so Rosco2?
<Rosco2> Then you have to patch for vunerabilities in multiple places
<OvenWerks> Anyway, my time is up. I need to get going
<eylul> well through isn't the whole point that the execution of those libraries is limited to the context of that software packaged? (plus assuming team of the software can fix that fast enough, without relying on distro to distribute it)
<eylul> ok before ovenwerks go
<eylul> what are our steps forward in terms of council etc
<sakrecoer> hehe
<Rosco2> Back to business
<eylul> or we can update ovenwerks if he needs to go now I suppose but..
<eylul> lets sort this out
<eylul> ok..
<eylul> so rosco2 you mentioned drafting something based on xubuntu?
<eylul> 2) how many people do we want to cap the council at, if we need cap
<eylul> 3) how will we handle initial selection
<Rosco2> Can do
<eylul> 4) who do we need to inform on ubuntu side when a decision is made?
<Rosco2> Community Council I suppose?
<sakrecoer> eylul: community council i think
<sakrecoer> :)
<eylul> I see
<eylul> sakrecoer I think you need to be the one to inform them in that case
<Rosco2> 3) I suppose all of us & maybe ask the other mentioned privately?
<eylul> sounds good to me
<Rosco2> I mean ask off list, those that we menioned earlier
<eylul> yup
<Rosco2> Krytarik etc.
<sakrecoer> ok, i can write to the CC
<eylul> ok
<Rosco2> 2) maybe a random generator and rotate per release?
<eylul> ahaha
<eylul> maybe first ask if anybody would actually LIKE to step down before doing that?
<Rosco2> Actually I misread 2
<sakrecoer> Like ancient Greece, Rosco2 :)
<sakrecoer> half the parlament was randomly slected (among the right cast though lol)
<eylul> no it is a good idea if we have new people who want to join in and old people who don't want to leave although we should make sure that we have at all times one expert tech person (so Rosco2 and Ovenwerks, or at least one of them unless they really need to leave for a while - please don't? :D)
<Rosco2> I was talking about a nominal head
<eylul> aaah
<sakrecoer> aaah!
<sakrecoer> haha
<eylul> lol
<eylul> err
<Rosco2> At least that is what Xubuntu did
<eylul> does it matter who the head is?
<Rosco2> no - that is what I meant with the rotation
<eylul> lol
<Rosco2> IRC Â£$%%^&
<eylul> rosco2 I was going to nominate you as the head
<eylul> but why not
<eylul> random works too
<eylul> XD
<sakrecoer> :)
<eylul> (for the first round I mean)
<Rosco2> Happy to volunteer for the first round if it is easier and OK with all
<sakrecoer> i'd vote for you eylul not that i think Rosco2 wouldn't be good at it, but we really need all he can give on the packaging, and i hope ia m right assuming you enjoy doing that Rosco2 ..?
<eylul> I assume that with council I can take most of the communication issue off of rosco2 and ovenwerks and everyone else
<Rosco2> Also happy with that Set - I have some work to do to get upload rights
<eylul> but it might be better to have somebody who has been around long enough time as first lead (as nominal the role is)
<sakrecoer> true, both of you.
<eylul> (also my life while not quite as drastic as sakrecoer's situation, has been going on a weird direction)
<eylul> lol ok
<eylul> maybe rosco2 had the right idea with random number generator
<sakrecoer> yes :D
<Rosco2> :-)
<eylul> lets just do that because otherwise we will keep offering each other leadership all night
<eylul> XD
<sakrecoer> hahaha
<Rosco2> Well - we could wait until we have everything drafted and do a quick vote between us then?
<sakrecoer> that is fair to me :)
<sakrecoer> i mean... not to me personaly. but it sounds good :)
<eylul> sounds good
<eylul> can we do the vote over email?
<eylul> and put a deadline?
<sakrecoer> yes!
<sakrecoer> please, lets set a date :D
<eylul> Kryten is the only one who doesn't use the ML
<eylul> so not sure what to do about that but.. I can ask him to make an exception, once :D
<eylul> ok so rosco drafts it
<Rosco2> Next Sunday?
<eylul> for drafting?
<Rosco2> For finalising
<eylul> ok
<eylul> then we do a vote.. 48 hours sounds good?
<Rosco2> Hopefully I can draft by md-week depending on wotk
<Rosco2> Sure
<eylul> Rosco2: don't hesitate to let me know if you need a second set of eyes on  it
<sakrecoer> super!!
<eylul> email, or (I also have tox, for voice chat)
<sakrecoer> you rock guys!
<Rosco2> I will probably send to all of us by email for a quik review
<eylul> that sounds good to me
<sakrecoer> excellent!
<Rosco2> Very productive today!
<eylul> do we email the rest of the candidates after voting the council idea?
 * sakrecoer getting all nostalgic... i've missed y'all
<eylul> we missed you too sakrecoer, :)
<Rosco2> +1
<eylul> :)
<sakrecoer> <3
<Rosco2> Thanks all - better go and see the family for what is left of the weeked
<eylul> yeah dinner time here
<sakrecoer> ok!
<sakrecoer> thanks everyone!
<sakrecoer> read ya next sunday!
<Rosco2> Wish I could jump to AMerican time for the rest of the weekend
<sakrecoer> haha!
<eylul> :D
<eylul> wait rosco2 where ARE you?
<eylul> (if you don't mind me asking)
<Rosco2> Denmark these days
<eylul> ohhh!
<eylul> damn I was in copenhagen in feb.
<eylul> :)
<eylul> anyway
<eylul> ok I am off see you all next sunday
<Rosco2> Let us know next time - see you all
<eylul> will do. 
<eylul> bye
<OvenWerks> krytarik: there was a meeting earlier if you are interested in all our gab you should be able to find it: https://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2017/05/21/%23ubuntustudio-devel.html
<krytarik> Yes, I read all of it already.
<OvenWerks> cool
#ubuntustudio-devel 2018-05-14
<OvenWerks> Huh, I just figgured out that a package can be both in bzr and in git.
 * OvenWerks has uploaded his first git to launchpad...
<OvenWerks> Lets see if it will build
<OvenWerks> https://launchpad.net/~len-ovenwerks/+archive/ubuntu/ppa
<OvenWerks> shows a -controls package built from a new git package. I am trying to decide if I want this  version in the wild or if I should do a bit more work first. I am in the middle of making more than one usb device work.
<OvenWerks> this version does already include the fix to work with ondemand moved to systemd instead of init.d
<OvenWerks> As such, the git version will only be set to build for 18.04 and up.
<OvenWerks> I think I will move things one more step before I move it to -devel
<OvenWerks> ErichEickmeyer: do you know if we have to get rid of the bzr branch right away, or if it is ok to leave it around for a bit. I am guessing the PPA packages will sit as they were last built.
<OvenWerks> also I am not sure if the name of the git branch will show as newer than the bzr branch. if not, I will bump the version number with no release ;)
<krytarik> We'll go with something that starts with "{debupstream}+git" anyway then, which sorts higher than "{debupstream}+bzr" naturally, so it will be fine.
<krytarik> Just not quite clear on anything that follows it yet. >_>
<OvenWerks> just time... the commit numbers in git are rather long and not in order.
<krytarik> Yes, but we also already use time at the end, in case of history rewrites - which then would make the version string rather long.
<OvenWerks> todays was: ubuntustudio-controls_1.5-0~201805121430~ubuntu18.04.1_all.deb which sorts ahead (or lower) than ubuntustudio-controls_1.5+bzr146+201804061516~ubuntu16.04.1_all.deb
<OvenWerks> that is in my ppa, so when I move it to -devel I will add +git
<krytarik> Btw, the proper namespace for your current repo would be this: lp:~len-ovenwerks/ubuntustudio-controls/+git/ubuntustudio-controls
<OvenWerks> Thats what it is.
<krytarik> Nope, look closer.
<OvenWerks> Oh ok... it won't stay long though
<krytarik> Yeah, but for the main one then.
<krytarik> Then it'll show up here under Git: https://code.launchpad.net/ubuntustudio-controls - before we switch the project's default VCS, of course.
<OvenWerks> right now it is: lp:ubuntustudio-controls which is: https://code.launchpad.net/~ubuntustudio-dev/ubuntustudio-controls/trunk
<OvenWerks> our git page is https://code.launchpad.net/~ubuntustudio-dev/+git
<krytarik> That of the dev team, yes.
<OvenWerks> I guess I will ask when I get there
<OvenWerks> krytarik: this page says the name is right: https://help.launchpad.net/Code/Git
<OvenWerks> see in pushing code.
<OvenWerks> I could have omitted the /+git/
<krytarik> Well, it depends on the scope really - in this case it's not.
<krytarik> You could change both the owner and set a project here: https://code.launchpad.net/~len-ovenwerks/+git/ubuntustudio-controls/+edit
<krytarik> For comparison, look at this: https://code.launchpad.net/ubuntu-bots/+git
<krytarik> * both change
<ErichEickmeyer> OvenWerks: To answer your question, looks like it should happen as soon as possible. https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-release/2018-May/004455.html
<OvenWerks> ErichEickmeyer: I am not sure what that message says...
<OvenWerks> This is talking about seeds in particular, not other packages
<ErichEickmeyer> I think that's all they want migrated at this point. 
<ErichEickmeyer> Â¯\_(ã)_/Â¯ 
<OvenWerks> it seems to say they should all be done may8... last week.
<OvenWerks> It says no work is required of the teams
<OvenWerks> That would make me expect that someone else was doing the transition.
<ErichEickmeyer> Then, I guess we're good, unless we wanna be hipster and migrate before everyone else. That said, I think we should minimize the workload and that it's not a priority.
<ErichEickmeyer> I can try to get some clarification if you'd like.
<OvenWerks> I don't think we have done our own meta since 16.10ish
<OvenWerks> So I don't know the "tooling" they are talking about.
<OvenWerks> So anyway from the wiki page they mention, it seems that all the old seed branches are supposed to end up in one git repo
<ErichEickmeyer> Well, I just asked tsimonq2 in #ubuntu-flavors what he meant. If you want, I'd join that channel and talk to him directly, he seems to be the one coordinating this.
<ErichEickmeyer> Basically, if I were you, I'd join that channel and talk to him directly.
<OvenWerks> OK, I certainly have no problem with dealing with seeds in a git format
<OvenWerks> ErichEickmeyer: I only have so much time. I will probably not be going through everything we use converting them to git.
<OvenWerks> new packages like a desktop-plasma will just gets started as git.
<ErichEickmeyer> OvenWerks: I'd do whatever it takes to minimize the impact on your time. 
<ErichEickmeyer> And, that's not a bad idea. Migrate if you have time, but don't push yourself.
<ErichEickmeyer> I'd hardly consider it a high priority.
<OvenWerks> the making of meta packages... and iso files is very much some dark art using spells and incantations mere mortals were never meant to understand.
<ErichEickmeyer> Just heard back from tsimonq2. Basically, we're waiting on Adam Conrad (infinity) to make the final decision. Until then, we're in limbo with that project, so don't worry about that.
<ErichEickmeyer> OvenWerks: ^
<OvenWerks> cool, that was sort of my reading of things.
<OvenWerks> git would make managing seeds easier I think.
<ErichEickmeyer> I think so too. I know git way better than I know bzr, personally.
<OvenWerks> in the long run being able to work with only one revision control toolkit would be nice too.
<ErichEickmeyer> I'm off to take the truck into the shop to have the clutch looked at.
<OvenWerks> well, I could "look" at it... fix, maybe not
<ErichEickmeyer> OvenWerks: Haha! I don't think I could take it across the border. Canada hasn't liked me for about 14 years now. I must've pissed-off a border patrol agent.
<OvenWerks> it would be a lot of work for me to say "yep, that there is a clutch all right"
 * OvenWerks needs to rebuild a clutch too, but the weight of the transmition and transfer case is more than I can deal with... and no lift to use either
<ErichEickmeyer> http://ubuntustudio.org/2018/05/ubuntu-studio-development-news-may-14-2018
<SlidingHorn> ErichEickmeyer: posted to the subreddit
<SlidingHorn> I'll post it on the mastodon account - just need to know which email address eylul used to create it, as they don't use the username for logins.  (didn't think to ask that they other day, lol_
<eylul> slidinghorn: it is eylul@ubuntustudio.org but that is temporary but I forgot to bring this up at the meeting, we should probably have a ubuntustudio.org email that everyone responsible for social media gets the forwards from. Not sure if we have such an account at the moment or not. Devel mailing list is not a good place for it, as this account will also be used for password resets etc.
<OvenWerks> SlidingHorn: did you get that desktop file I left yesterday?
<SlidingHorn> my laptop (on which I run my IRC) froze up last night.  I'll pull it from the log tonight
<ErichEickmeyer> SlidingHorn: Thanks!
<ErichEickmeyer> SlidingHorn: Though, including the link would've been good. :)
<ErichEickmeyer> SlidingHorn: Also, I don't know if either of those mods are even active. Might be time for /r/ubuntustudio-official.
<SlidingHorn> I meant to - somehow forgot :/
<SlidingHorn> It's edited w/ the link now
<SlidingHorn> are the mods part of the old dev crew?  We could just see if they'll hand it over
<ErichEickmeyer> Well, those accounts haven't been active in months if not years. If they hand it over, sure. Otherwise, we'd have to start a new subreddit.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2018-05-15
<krytarik> OvenWerks: "..and your resources are limited, it's simply wasteful to implement two options" - hiloriously enough, the first was meant irt Gnome itself, while the latter is actually mostly about dropping existing options (like just today announced again) rather than adding new ones.
<OvenWerks> krytarik: I guess that was my point, gnome has less features and uses more resources.
<OvenWerks> add to that, everyone has more resources now than they did in gnome2 days
<krytarik> They aren't referring to the software there though, but the dev team.
<OvenWerks> Ah, ok.
<OvenWerks> In any case, I have found that I could work with any of the DEs that are available. If the rest of the team wanted gnome based, that is what we would work with
<ErichEickmeyer> Just seemed as though Plasma would be easiest, especially considering the menus.
<OvenWerks> ErichEickmeyer: I didn't see any complaints at the meeting
<krytarik> Btw, I also think that Plasma could be an awesome choice of a default DE.
<ErichEickmeyer> krytarik: Same, but, at least for this cycle, I think that would cause an uprising. Maybe 19.04 or 19.10 if we were to go down that road. Just my opinion.
<ErichEickmeyer> KXStudio uses it (albiet an old version) pretty successfully.
<OvenWerks> I think the new one will too
<ErichEickmeyer> Fedora JAM uses it successfully as well.
<OvenWerks> From what FalkTX has said in various places
<krytarik> ErichEickmeyer: ...Didn't you want a reboot? :P
<SlidingHorn> s/reboot/revolt/
<SlidingHorn> :P
<krytarik> But yeah, that's quite a bit of work to get right too.
<ErichEickmeyer> LOL
<ErichEickmeyer> Yep. Let's give ourselves some time.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2018-05-16
<ErichEickmeyer> OvenWerks: Just responded to Alexandrieu. He's not offering to help, and he's starting to get personal, so I recommend we stop that discussion. If he does get personal, we'll need to moderate him.
<ErichEickmeyer> And thanks for taking the discussion to the ML as opposed to his private email he initially sent you. That was a good idea.
<SlidingHorn> just saw that - well said
<ErichEickmeyer> Hey, I didn't get this degree in leadership for nothing. ;)
<SlidingHorn> Mine was in pestering with a minor in troll.  Best I stay out of it :P
<ErichEickmeyer> XD
<OvenWerks> ErichEickmeyer: I probably said more than was needed, sorry :)
<SlidingHorn> OvenWerks: I don't think you crossed any lines, personally
<ErichEickmeyer> OvenWerks: No, you're okay. I've got your back. He's the one that needs to calm down.
 * ErichEickmeyer scampers off to work
#ubuntustudio-devel 2018-05-17
<OvenWerks> success! I was able to plug in two USB audio devices one after the other and then remove them in any order and still have things work.
 * OvenWerks still has a long way to go
<metalbiker> slidinghorn: hey, are you online?
<SlidingHorn> Who's metalbiker?
<SlidingHorn> oh just seeing the email thread
<OvenWerks> He has been here off and on and expressed interest before
#ubuntustudio-devel 2018-05-18
<metalbiker> hey guys. i just wanted to state that i'm in the process of downloading 18.10 to test out. is there a location i need to look at, website wise, to go through certain items to test? 
<OvenWerks> we like to test main applications
<OvenWerks> make sure jack works/has rt permisions
<OvenWerks> make sure either Ardour or Qtracktor run
<OvenWerks> try one of the art programs like GIMP
<OvenWerks> do a quick video edit with one of the video editors (join two videos together and render)
<OvenWerks> also see: http://iso.qa.ubuntu.com/
<OvenWerks> http://iso.qa.ubuntu.com/qatracker/milestones/390/builds/172611/testcases
<OvenWerks> each of the three have test cases
<OvenWerks> for the install, "erase disk and install" may not be something you wish to use
<OvenWerks> I always choose "do something else" and install to a partition I have set aside for testing.
<metalbiker2> ovenwerks: like a dual boot?
<OvenWerks> metalbiker2: ya, i have a large partition That just has home stuff
<metalbiker2> well, what i was planning on doing since i've got to do it anyway, is install it on my workstation computer that's not my general use computer. 
<OvenWerks> then I have some 2g partitions that I install the OS to.
<OvenWerks> in that case no problem
<OvenWerks> metalbiker2: I am not sure what stuff above you saw or did not.
<metalbiker2> ovenwerks: i've been aiming to get my workstation put back together for over a month now and i'm heading into the weekend with nothing going on so i'm doing that.
<metalbiker2> ovenwerks: oh you mean the items you mentioned to test?
<OvenWerks> ya, it looks like you switched from one irc client to another
<metalbiker2> yeah, my settings for my irc client aren't on point just yet. i've got to tweak that right now. lol
<metalbiker2> i'm using hexchat, which is cool, but i like konversation with it's ability to set things before you connect like username, passwords, all that jazz.
<metalbiker2> what i need to do is back out and come back in so give me a few minutes and i'll brb
<metalbiker> now i'm back
<metalbiker> i sort of, um, overlooked the edit options for the servers to connect to so now i've got automatic identification set now. lol duh
#ubuntustudio-devel 2018-05-19
<captain-tux> Hi
<krytarik> Hi captain-tux.  No meeting today though, for once! :P
<captain-tux> Oh, you're right. I completely forgot. ;)
<OvenWerks> but if you have something to talk about, you don't have to wait for a meeting :)
<captain-tux> Nothing particular right now, no. ;)
#ubuntustudio-devel 2018-05-20
<OvenWerks> If anyone is interested in learning to use Python, this seems to be a good course: https://developers.google.com/edu/python/
<OvenWerks> It is free and comes with video lectures and exercises.
<SlidingHorn> We should send this to Alexandrieu and encourage them to write back to Linus:  https://mail.gnome.org/archives/usability/2005/December/msg00021.html
<SlidingHorn> oops:  https://mail.gnome.org/archives/usability/2005-December/msg00021.html
<OvenWerks> Lovely quote...
<eylul> I do disagree with this to a point. people have different use cases. and overly simplified designs... there is a reason why windows went the route it did, there is a reason why more and more people simply use cellphones than use laptops or desktop computers at all
<eylul> We can say that for our audience and their workflows that what gnome is aiming for doesn't work. without demonizing gnome. 
<eylul> I don't like this attitude and it will lose us volunteers, it does lose us users as linux community
<eylul> if nothing else that the users have the choice of DEs is an advantage for linux in appealing to a larger audience, and building a platform where software compiled once even can work in a variety of devices aimed at different users. 
#ubuntustudio-devel 2019-05-13
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: The Launchpad team was more than happy to raise the limit on both our autobuilds and the backports.
<OvenWerks> cool
<OvenWerks> It was more work that I thought to make pulse bridges able to be more than one :) Still have to test though
<OvenWerks> only the first bridge auto connects to a device if specified. (need to check what happens if none is)
<m_ad[m]> great, i read about the space issue the other day
<OvenWerks> found another bug on the way to pulse bridge number... I think it is fixed now :)
<Eickmeyer> Sweet. Is there any way we could allow custom naming for the pulse bridge(s)? Like, on a separate tab? That way, whatever application is assigned to whatever bridge could be named by the user to make routing in Jack easier.
 * Eickmeyer noticed a new Calf release right around the same time as 19.04, will be looking at upgrading the package, putting it in the backports, and notifying Ross for upload to Debian/sync to Ubuntu.
<OvenWerks> So does that mean you have tried the new -controls?
<OvenWerks> I am not sure how many pulse bridges you expect people to use ;) I allow up to 9 and already think that is overkill. I expect one set for skype and one set for all the rest of the desktop will be all that anyone ever uses.
<Eickmeyer> I agree, 9 is overkill. Where I'm at is to help people with knowing which pulse bridge is which without too much thought.
<OvenWerks> The problem I see with naming, is that in order to to rename, all ports get deleted and remade. So if someone gets everything set up and then changes a name, all of there connections get lost.
<Eickmeyer> Ohhhh... I see. Yeah, that could be bad.
<OvenWerks> I picked 9 because that is the limit for one digit ;)
<Eickmeyer> hehe
<OvenWerks> disconnecting ports would get called a bug by at least some people
<Eickmeyer> Just tried it. Selected 6 bridges. Only came back with 1.
<OvenWerks> Right now I am not saving any info about bridges (other than number) and rely on system calls to clear all of them. With pulse it is hard to remove a single jack sourse/sink as you have to read through all of them and find out what the record number of that module is rather than just removing by name.
<Eickmeyer> 1 stereo, that is.
<OvenWerks> you have to logout/in or do: dbus-send --type=signal / org.ubuntustudio.control.event.quit_signal
<OvenWerks> other wise the autojack you are running is the old one.
<Eickmeyer> Oh yes.
<OvenWerks> We can't do this from install because it is running as the user not the system and the install is done as the system.
<Eickmeyer> Ah, I see. Something to add to ubuntustudio-system --fix?
<OvenWerks> We could have the ping back changed from "pong_signal" to "V2_signal"
<Eickmeyer> I have no idea what that does.
<OvenWerks> I look for the pong signal in -controls to tell that autojack is running, if I look for a v2 signal the old version will not send that and so will send a quite_signal and then restart autojack.
<Eickmeyer> Oh, that's not a bad idea.
<Eickmeyer> A little hacky, but it gets the job done.
<OvenWerks> So every time I change autojack I can up the version in both autojack and -controls
<Eickmeyer> Yeah, that works.
<OvenWerks> Next question.... the mixer start button... where should it be placed? on the bottom with the other buttons? (start, stop and apply)
<OvenWerks> or under the jack status
<OvenWerks> Or have a drop down that allows starting the mixer with whatever device they choose?
<OvenWerks> yet another question: (or statement) It seems there are some devices (or subdevices) that jack can not start.
<Eickmeyer> The start, stop, and apply buttons look fine where they are.
<OvenWerks> For example, I have an AuodioPCI (Early 90s?) where AudioPCI,0,0 works fine but AudioPCI,1,0 is not accessable.
<OvenWerks> Yes they look fine where they are should I add a 4th button to start the QASmixer in the same row?
<Eickmeyer> Add two buttons below: one for QASmixer, the other vor PAVUcontrol.
<Eickmeyer> *for
<Eickmeyer> Because, if we're going to have multiple Jack bridges, people are going to want to route their applications.
<Eickmeyer> By that same token, having one for Carla wouldn't be a bad idea either since that gives them access to their audio rack and patchbay for Jack.
<OvenWerks> I will see what I can do...
<OvenWerks> Maybe two rows then.
<Eickmeyer> Cool
<OvenWerks> Two rows means that one row controls Controls and the other starts extra stuff
<Eickmeyer> Yeah.
<Eickmeyer> Of course, by that same token, jack-mixer, but this can become a slippery slope.
<OvenWerks> It does mean adding things to the depends...
<Eickmeyer> Not hard.
<OvenWerks> Well no but that means installing installer installs at least 4 extra applications
<Eickmeyer> True. Can we have -controls look for if the applications are installed and then add the buttons dynamically?
<Eickmeyer> Seeing if the file exists in /usr/bin would be one way.
<OvenWerks> right.
<OvenWerks> I don't know, I have been unable to make a button invisible so far.
<Eickmeyer> Then what if it was simply disabled unless the corresponding application was in /usr/bin?
<OvenWerks> How can we make the problem obvious to the user?
<OvenWerks> If file not exist, open installer instead :P
<Eickmeyer> If the button is disabled, the text should be gray. A help button would be one way to figure that out.
<Eickmeyer> Another idea is to add apturl and point to a website with icons that, when clicked-on, open an "apt://" url that installs the application using apturl.
<Eickmeyer> Xubuntu has something like that.
<OvenWerks> I think one step at a time.
<Eickmeyer> Gotcha. I'm going too fast. 
 * Eickmeyer hits the brakes
<OvenWerks>  I will add the three buttons and depends for now. In the Studio they will just work.
<Eickmeyer> True.
<Eickmeyer> back in a bit
<Eickmeyer> Okay, I'm back.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2019-05-14
<OvenWerks> build qued...
<OvenWerks> built waiting publish...
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: re:devices that jack can not start. I was wrong it is zita-ajbridge that is having trouble. Interesting thing that if I set jack master to hw:AudioPCI,1,0 that works and adding hw:AudioPCI,0,0 just works fine.
<OvenWerks> I think the problem is that for some reason zita does not detect the fact that hw:*,1,0 needs the -L flag (force 16bits little endian)
<OvenWerks> I need to figure out how to detect that I guess.
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: -controls published... ready to wreck and rot...
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: Ok
<OvenWerks> No changes to autojack this time.
<Eickmeyer> Good to know
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: I thought we wanted the app buttons below the jack control buttons?
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: does that make more sense? I can do that.
<Eickmeyer> Ok
<OvenWerks> build queued
<OvenWerks> we don't have drmr do we?
<OvenWerks> I wonder if we can get AVLdrums in.
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: does this look better?
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: I'll know in a vew. I'm eating dinner.
<Eickmeyer> *few
<OvenWerks> well then ignor me...
<Eickmeyer> hehehe
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: That looks much better.
<Eickmeyer> Also, drmr? We have hydrogen...
<Eickmeyer> I see drmr and AVLdrums are both in kxstudio, so it should be relatively easy.
<Eickmeyer> Yikes. Drmr is something like 7 years old without a commit.
<Eickmeyer> And it looks like Robin just released a new version of AVLDrums < 1 week ago.
<OvenWerks> Ya, I just DL from his site.
<OvenWerks> quite nice
<OvenWerks> I am just thinking that one of the holes in what we have is a drum player/synth
<OvenWerks> drum gizmo comes without sounds
<OvenWerks> avldrums comes as red zeppelin and the black pearl with all the sounds
<Eickmeyer> Oh nice.
<Eickmeyer> Well, I've got drmr building on my own ppa to see if anything goes wrong. If nothing does I'm moving it to the autobuilds.
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: drmr is now in autobuilds for you to try out.
<OvenWerks> I didn't realize drmr was so old. It may be more of a liability
<OvenWerks> Having said that, how old is hydrogen? When was it last updated?
<OvenWerks> Hydrogen has a number of commits even in the last two days.
<Eickmeyer> Yeah, Hydrogen is very much active.
<Eickmeyer> I'm having the worst time getting AVLDrums to build.
<OvenWerks> I think robtk has to actually be included in the src.
<OvenWerks> To make a src package
<OvenWerks> In other words, the local git needs to include robtk not just a link to it because the builder will not just add random code from the internet. 
<OvenWerks> "Makefile:132: This plugin needs https://github.com/x42/robtk"
<OvenWerks> The make file may need to be changed too.
<OvenWerks> The version of robtk to use is the commit embeded in the git link.
<OvenWerks> The makefile calls Makefile.git a number of times. That will need to be removed
<OvenWerks> WRT -controls: Right now, we frequently create a jack client and if successful call jack running. I am not sure this is the best way of doing things.
<OvenWerks> I was going to leave -controls for a while to work on menu-add... but I think we should if creating a client is successful, give jack a callback for shutting down or use some other test with the client we have.
<OvenWerks> because right now we have a lot of jackdbus log lines like:
<OvenWerks> Mon May 13 17:27:51 2019: New client 'controls' with PID 12545
<OvenWerks> Mon May 13 17:27:51 2019: Client 'controls' with PID 12545 is out
<OvenWerks> This is growing the log file to fast.
<Eickmeyer> Yeah, I agree. There has to be a more efficinet way.
<Eickmeyer> WRT AVLDrums: I saw that, it's just a matter of pointing the "RW" variable to the right directory. I downloaded robtk manually to the directory, and since there's no actual modification of code, it's completely fine to do. In fact, git acted like it had been there the entire time.
<OvenWerks> The problem is not with git but with the build system which builds in a chroot with no inet access
<OvenWerks> (or should)
<Eickmeyer> When I looked at the makefile, it looked like the RW could be specified /or/ you could use make submodules.
<OvenWerks> The https://code.launchpad.net/~ubuntustudio-dev/+git/avldrums.lv2/+ref/master shows that the robtk directory is empty
<OvenWerks> so it may build on your system, but was not uploaded.
<OvenWerks> you may have to git -a robtk or something
<OvenWerks> (you may need to remove any .git file in that directory too)
<Eickmeyer> I just removed the entire directory
<Eickmeyer> had to remove .gitmodules as well.
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: I finally got past the robtk issue, but now I'm getting other issues.
 * Eickmeyer is going back to the drawing board, will clone falktx's build
 * Eickmeyer is giving up on AVLDrums
<Eickmeyer> Can't get launchpad to build it.
<Eickmeyer> tsimonq2: Did you ever look at lsp-plugins?
 * Eickmeyer got dpf-plugins to build
 * OvenWerks has gotten leaving client open to work.... but gets seg fault in some cases.
<tsimonq2> Eickmeyer: Sorry, I haven't.
<tsimonq2> I'm absolutely swamped the next week.
<Eickmeyer> tsimonq2: All good, I understand. My biggest hurdle is the shared library it installs in /usr/lib which vorlon objected to, but doesn't seem to be out of the ordinary, so I didn't understand the problem.
<tsimonq2> Yeah.
<tsimonq2> Eickmeyer: https://paste.ubuntu.com/p/GFnXmk4DJd/
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: dpf-plugins has a libjack-dev build dependency. Will that cause an issue when installed, meaning, will it pull-in Jack1 instead of Jack2? If so, then is swapping that dep a 1:1?
#ubuntustudio-devel 2019-05-15
<OvenWerks> The build dep and the run dep do not have to be the same
<OvenWerks> but you should be able to just use libjack-jackd2-dev instead
<OvenWerks> make sure the package dep is jackd2
<OvenWerks> jackd1 is going away no matter how much some people like it.
<OvenWerks> falktx is working towards one jackd only and will be wrapping any features v1 has into v2
<Eickmeyer> Okay. I'll go ahead and change the dep. I just installed it and it didn't pull in jack1.
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: ^
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: dpf-plugins are now available for abuse.
<OvenWerks> found segfault... GDB was no help.
<OvenWerks> reading the docs over and over....
<OvenWerks> It seems I can't actually close the jack client from within the kack has died callback. I can set a variable that some other code sees and that code can close the client :P
<Eickmeyer> Wonderful. /s
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: Think there might be any clues in either Cadence or qjackctl on how to avoid that?
<OvenWerks> I have already fixed it. no trouble.
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: check out exo-desktop-item-edit
<OvenWerks> I think all I need to do is put a wrapper around that
<Eickmeyer> Ah! Yeah, not a bad idea.
<Eickmeyer> Actually, that would do the trick.
<OvenWerks> This is what panel uses to create desktop files. So if we create a wrapper that A) asks for a file name B) asks where in the menu it should appear and C) looks to see if there is already a system desktop file with that name.
<OvenWerks> We could create a blank desktop file with there name in .local/share/applications/
<OvenWerks> that has their catagories to place the ittem in the right submenu.
 * OvenWerks found the applet by doing a ps x to see what the panel add was using...
<OvenWerks> (when talking on the other chanel)
<OvenWerks> Do we know which package exo-desktop-item-edit comes from?
<Eickmeyer> There's a way to find out.
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: It's exo-utils
<Eickmeyer> (dpkg -S {$filename})
<OvenWerks> Will add to deps
<Eickmeyer> :thumbsup:
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: controls needs testing
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: Done building and published, I take it?
<OvenWerks> 28 minutes ago it says
<Eickmeyer> And, new autojack or no?
<OvenWerks>  but I don't care when you get to it...
<OvenWerks> It doesn't matter. It will restart it the first start, stop or reconfig anyway.
<OvenWerks> That was one of the things I added.
<Eickmeyer> Nice!
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: NICE DSP GAUGE!
<Eickmeyer> Now we just need an Xrun gauge (with reset button) and that will be complete!
<Eickmeyer> Just beat it up, works well.
<OvenWerks> put in a feature request :P
 * OvenWerks is off to working on menu item add
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: :)
<OvenWerks> Feel free to add it if you are looking for a project though
#ubuntustudio-devel 2019-05-16
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: http://i.imgur.com/fpxGVwV.png
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: So, is the filename absolute path?
<OvenWerks> The filename is only text, no path, no extension. The .desktop will get added and the file placed in ~/.local/share/applications/
<OvenWerks> That will over ride anything
<Eickmeyer> Okay, that makes sense. So, should it say filename, or application name? I'm just trying to think from a user perspective.
<Eickmeyer> People aren't going to necessarily understand the term "Desktop File" especially if they are coming from Mac or Windows.
<OvenWerks> if there are no spaces application name is ok... but really if the user wants to override a system file it has to have the same name.
<OvenWerks> Also, people are used to not being able to use any odd character in a file name
<Eickmeyer> Fair enough.
<OvenWerks> I actually put the file detection in with the wrong button (edit) when it should be (save)
<OvenWerks> my idea is to create a temp file with a copy of the original file (if it exists) or a template (if it doesn't) and use that to call exo-desktop-item-edit
<OvenWerks> Then when that exits and save is pressed, The temp file is copied on top of the original or created.
<Eickmeyer> Yeah, that's a great idea. Keeps it non-destructive until finalized.
<OvenWerks> Hmm, I guess I need a "remove" button. not sure what to call it, that removes the file from ~/.local/share/applications/ and lets the system file work.
<OvenWerks> Anyway, I want to get it working first... right now the about button works :)
<Eickmeyer> Well, that's a start. :)
<OvenWerks> When it can at least make a file I will upload it
<Eickmeyer> Cool.
<Eickmeyer> I just got done removing the standalone jack clients from the lsp-plugins. They required a shared object in /usr/lib and that's a huge no-no. vorlon wasn't letting it into the archive based on that alone.
<OvenWerks> Well, I actually get a new item in my menu... will upload tomorrow.
<OvenWerks> so far it always starts from scratch. It does not look to see if it already exists and then read in the old one as a template for the new.
<OvenWerks> Right now, I do a straight cp temp file to new file, I will be doing a line by line save in the future though to look for no show lines and catagories lines to replace them according to user choices.
<OvenWerks> The show check box is already there (but not yet used). I want to add a dropdown that has all sub menus listed and a second dropdown with any sub sub menus
<OvenWerks> Coming up with a catarories line that is unique for each is the goal... we may need to change -menu for best results.
<OvenWerks> I would like to have a window similar to the icon selection window that shows all the desktop files with icon/menu text so that the user can select one of those as the template.
<Eickmeyer[m]> Sweet! Sounds like a big job though.
<OvenWerks> Well that was silly... I uploaded before commit... so no executable  :P
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: how do we change: https://code.launchpad.net/~ubuntustudio-dev/+git/ubuntustudio-menu-add into a project? (lp:ubuntustudio-menu-add)
<Eickmeyer[m]> OvenWerks: I will do that in a bit. FYI, I will be out of town and low on communication the next couple of days, but I'll be doing what I can.
<OvenWerks> no problem, nothing I am doing is urgent
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: Done.
<Eickmeyer> https://code.launchpad.net/ubuntustudio-menu-add/+git
<OvenWerks> Thank you
<Eickmeyer> You're quite welcome.
<Eickmeyer> You'll have to re-clone that to make sure you have the right upstream.
<OvenWerks> Ya, I know.
<Eickmeyer> :)
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: I don't know if you will have time to look at menu-add (not sure if that is a good name or not)
<OvenWerks> when you do... there is a point I am not sure how to deal with
<Eickmeyer> Nah, my Studio machine is packed in a bag right now. Probably later.
 * Eickmeyer is waiting for his ride for a 3 hour drive
<Eickmeyer> I try to keep my 2-in-1's installation simple.
<Eickmeyer> With only 2GB of RAM, it has to be.
<OvenWerks> when you hit save on the editor it just saves to the temp file. then the menu item has to be saved in the main window to be seen
<OvenWerks> I was thinking of adding a dialog, but people who use the app a lot might get anoyed with that
<Eickmeyer> Yeah. MIght cause dialog fatigue.
<OvenWerks> Maybe I should change the "Save" button in the main window to "Install"
<Eickmeyer> Yeah, but that comes with a bunch of different connotations.
<OvenWerks> "activate"
<OvenWerks> ??
<OvenWerks> Actually, that may be the best way to go. I could then have a "Deactiveate" to remove something from the users local directory.
<Eickmeyer> Not bad.
<Eickmeyer> "Apply"?
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: ^
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: I think I will add another check button that says "active"
<Eickmeyer> That might work.
<OvenWerks> Apply also has the wrong idea for me.
<Eickmeyer> ok
<OvenWerks> I want to have a file selector that lists users made menu items (anything in ~/.local/share/appliacations)
<OvenWerks> That way the user can choose from those to edit or deactivate
<OvenWerks> The question is, should a deacivated item still be saved? I guess so, deactivate would rename from base.desktop to base.saved
<Eickmeyer> I think so.
<OvenWerks> exo-desktop-item-edit requires something that is called base.desktop I think, so I still have to start with a temporary file.... I will try with an odd named file.
<Eickmeyer> So, touch base.desktop?
<OvenWerks> I actually put some things in there to begin
<OvenWerks> exo-desktop-item-edit requires -c to create but I want to be able to edit already active files and I want to be able to add catagories and don't show and...
<OvenWerks> so I create a base.desktop in .config that I send exo-desktop-item-edit to. Then copy to final on save... but that will change.
<OvenWerks> I had the save button so that the person could change the catagories and shown after editing and then save it.... I will set it up so that any change save anyway.
<OvenWerks> I will need to check the file to make sure it has a name and exec (or url).
<OvenWerks> trying to make it active without will give an error dialog
<Eickmeyer> Well, early stages, I guess.
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: in menu_add... should there be a checkbox to add the desktop file to the desktop? I just thought of this one... I was going to just add the word desktop to the menu folder choices, but really even a desktop icon should have reasonable catagories and also show up in the menu.... execpt, I have also added the possibility to create a link as well as an application and maybe a link 
<OvenWerks> really belongs only on the desktop. Should I even allow Links at this stage?
<OvenWerks> Hmm that may be too long a message, it may be missing the last part of the top line.
<OvenWerks> I understand you are on the road so I am not expecting a quick reply.
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: Answered my own question, the user can create urls on their desktop by just dragging them from the browser... and the application is a menu item creater.
<Eickmeyer[m]> Yeah. Last I checked that works in pretty much all desktops.
 * Eickmeyer[m] is in Pasco
#ubuntustudio-devel 2019-05-17
<Eickmeyer> lsp-plugins is in the NEW queue.
<OvenWerks> Cool
<OvenWerks> menu-add is going to need a fix in menu
<OvenWerks> the Audio Effects submenu has no catagories tag
<OvenWerks> menu-add needs this to be able to have a new item end up there
<OvenWerks> The fix in menu does not need menu add to work, so I can do that as a separate thing.
<Eickmeyer> Cool
#ubuntustudio-devel 2019-05-18
<Eickmeyer[m]> OvenWerks: A guy in #ubuntu-discuss was mentioning that he gets better desktop performance with the lowlatency kernel. I suspect placebo.
<Eickmeyer[m]> (for work in applications without the rt memory perms)
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer[m]: It may be more to do with running in performance mode.
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer[m]: it looks like our autobuild recipe for -menu may not be right.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2019-05-19
<Eickmeyer[m]> OvenWerks: I can look into that in the morning.
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer[m]: no rush
<OvenWerks> It may also be the changelog
<OvenWerks> compare to controls
<scotify> hello all! I've been using Ubuntu Studio for 6 years as my main workstation, I'm a big fan of it, many thanks!
<scotify> I'm interested in contributing in any way that would be helpful, though package management seems most interesting to me...
<OvenWerks> cool, I hate packaging :P
<OvenWerks> I think Eickmeyer[m] is away for the wekend though and would be the best person to help show you wich way to get started.
<scotify> ha
<scotify> okay, shall I check back here? Launchpad?
<m_ad[m]> yep, you can check back later in this channel if you like :)
<scotify> will do
<scotify> thanks!
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: The problem with -menu is definitely in the changelog. There's a double entry for 0.28.1, your latest needs to be 0.28.2, and you don't have a valid email address at the end of the section.
<Eickmeyer> scotify: Welcome! I'd love to get you started, and if you feel packaging is the best way, you might want to read-up at https://packaging.ubuntu.com. We use git for our versioning system so ignore anything with bzr.
<Eickmeyer> Hold up, wrong address...
<Eickmeyer> No, I had it right, just not the right protocol. It's http://packaging.ubuntu.com
<Eickmeyer> Sadly, I'm still, even after a year, in the early stages.
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: Better yet, change your version to 0.29. I might change that to 19.10.0 in the future. Still deciding on the best strategy.
<scotify> thanks! I'll head over and read up
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: You might want to merge Ross's fix into your main branch.
<OvenWerks> When the auto builds was first set up we had to leave the version as the old one or when a new version came out it would not dl. That was with bzr though and who knows where things have gone. I may start just doing sw and let others figure out the package stuff.
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: If you'd like, I can bump the version number. Thing is, for some reason, the autobuild version is seen by apt as being "behind" the release version. I think it has somethiing to do with the ~{revtime} field.
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: ya, in controls the "+git" seems to make it work.
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: Then it's a combination of the two factors (lacking the +git and the duplicate version numbers in the changelog). I'll fix the git, but I'm not where I can fix the changelog right now.
<OvenWerks> don't worry about for now.
<OvenWerks> menu-add is a long way from "ready"
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: I just fixed the recipe for -menu.
<Eickmeyer> New build requested.
<Eickmeyer> I might just go through all of the recipes and make that change.
<Eickmeyer> But yes, you're right, bzr and git have definite differences on launchpad in how things are built.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2020-05-11
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: yeah even them.
<OvenWerks> Carla would be the exception
<Eickmeyer> Ok. That actually might cut-down on some stuff.
<Eickmeyer> Yeah, Carla isn't really a plugin, even though it *has* plugins that allow it to be used as a plugin.
<OvenWerks> My feeling is that no one uses 10 jack clients and serialises them unless they already use a rack
<Eickmeyer> Right, and that's an excellent point.
<Eickmeyer> No clue why a developer would create a standalone client for each plugin.
<OvenWerks> The toolkit does it automatically
<OvenWerks> So it is no work to add it, just a compile flag
<OvenWerks> I would say lv2 only except I think there are some applications that only use vst
<OvenWerks>  (LMMS?)
<Eickmeyer> LMMS because they obviously hate LV2.
<OvenWerks> because the devs are afraid of it... though I do hear it is coming. Also so comercial products
<OvenWerks> s/so/some/
<Eickmeyer> That's cool.
<Eickmeyer> Though, being afraid of something that has been around for... how many years now?
<Eickmeyer> Looks like at least 8.
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: "LV2 support is coming" since 2014: https://github.com/LMMS/lmms/projects/10#card-19782392
<Eickmeyer> They only got some traction on it a year ago.
<Eickmeyer> And nothing since.
<OvenWerks> Yeah, aside from jack clients not building LV1 would not hurt either
<OvenWerks> in cases where there is already lv2)
<Eickmeyer> But then the LMMS people will get upset if there's no VST version.
<OvenWerks> so far as I am concerned, any plugin that has lv2, lxvst variants should not have lv1
<OvenWerks> Tell them to put in bug reports upstream
<Eickmeyer> Ok, agreed.
<OvenWerks> (to LMMS)
<Eickmeyer> I'll start picking-apart the seed tonight and figure out what needs to go/stay wrt plugins.
<OvenWerks> The main thing that is lv1 only are some of the specialized ambisonics ones I think
<OvenWerks> There is the small set of dssi plugins, some are already lv2 (fluidsynth) or they are suffering from bitrot.
<OvenWerks> I guess so long as they still build they are fine.
<Eickmeyer> dssi.... ew.
<OvenWerks> in fact the only real use for dssi seems to be hexter?
<Eickmeyer> Hexter is one of those that is ideally used as a standalone at this point.
<Eickmeyer> Still requires dssi stuff.
<OvenWerks> but xsynth and ysynth are problematic enough that they are only included because some other package we need includes them.
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: we need a desktop file for envy24control which decides to show up in video? to make it not show up at all (Dontshow=true)
<Eickmeyer> Or move it to the right place in -menu.
<OvenWerks> I think you have hit the graphics/video stuff pretty good.
<Eickmeyer> In terms of the email I sent?
<Eickmeyer> I admit the audio stuff needs further discussion/exploration.
<OvenWerks> yeah,
<OvenWerks> midisnoop does not show up in the menu. and should
<OvenWerks> I guess a bug report up stream... or is it proper to add one as a patch to the package?
<OvenWerks> we could add one to our menu package
<Eickmeyer> Let me investigate a minute.
<Eickmeyer> It *should* have one, per the source.
<Eickmeyer> Yet I see nothing in /usr/share/applications
<OvenWerks> that was I found too
<Eickmeyer> There's even a ptach to fix the build.
<Eickmeyer> It exists, it's just not getting built.
<Eickmeyer> Perhaps it's getting built, just not installed.
<Eickmeyer> Aha! They botched the rules file. The .desktop file exists, it's just not being put in the right directory.
<Eickmeyer> I'm *technically* part of the Debian Multimedia Team, so I get to edit stuff. :)
<Eickmeyer> This should do the trick: https://salsa.debian.org/multimedia-team/midisnoop/-/blob/master/debian/rules
<Eickmeyer> Now hopefully somebody rebuilds that.
<Eickmeyer> Any builds at this point should auto-sync.
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: I'm moving envy24control to mixers, removing from video.
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: drumkv1: Right now, we provide the standalone app. Should we switch it to the lv2 plugin or include both?
<Eickmeyer> Meh, switching it to the lv2.
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: envy24controls should not show anywhere because mudita24 should be used instead. Mudita24 is a fixed version.
<OvenWerks> lv2 is fine
<OvenWerks> for all the V1 plugins
<Eickmeyer> Looks like envy24controls comes in with alsa-tools?
<OvenWerks> yes
<OvenWerks> otherwise we would not include it
<Eickmeyer> Ok, yep, let's at least kill it from the menu.
<Eickmeyer> I'm not a huge fan of killing .desktop files with another desktop file, I think nuking it from applications-merged is the way to go. Overriding a .desktop file with another is a hack at best.
<Eickmeyer> I'll note we don't have anything that does that anymore.
<Eickmeyer> Actually, I take that back. It's in -default-settings.
<Eickmeyer> (odd place for it)
<OvenWerks> historical reasons
<OvenWerks> (hysterical)
<Eickmeyer> Hehe
<Eickmeyer> Easy enough to move.
<Eickmeyer> Ok, that should nuke it from orbit.
<OvenWerks> zynaddsubfx-oss.desktop is another that should go
<Eickmeyer> We already have a .desktop file that nukes it, but again it's in -default-settings which you wouldn't have installed.
<OvenWerks> Ah
 * OvenWerks did remeber talking about that before
<Eickmeyer> I remember talking about it before, and we did that, but we haven't been consistent about where we placed menu-modifying items.
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: Ok, in order to do that move I had to also backport a version of -default-settings I had branched. Also backported the fixes in -menu.
<Eickmeyer> Updated seed, updated metas.
<teward> Eickmeyer: FTBFS
<Eickmeyer> teward: The metas?
<teward> lsp-plugins FTBFS in Groovy sbuild
<Eickmeyer> That's incredibly odd.
<teward> my build farm locally was eating resources because I had 12 NGINX builds ahead of it
<teward> let me grab logs
<Eickmeyer> For reference, the versions in ubuntustudio-ppa/backports were locally built.
<teward> http://paste.ubuntu.com/p/63zHPzWS6n/
<teward> > for reference
<teward> you're talking backports
<teward> did you actually test Groovy lol
<teward> see the build logs
<Eickmeyer> Sorry, launchpad built, not from recipe.
<teward> it hard-failed
<teward> well in this case it hardfailed
<teward> so IDK what you have in yours that failed a plain sbuild
<teward> 'cause i just created this groovy environment :P
<teward> i rebuild it every 5 builds
<teward> hence why it took my system a while
<teward> i can re-run it but if it fails again
<Eickmeyer> Yep, backport has direct upload versions. Not built against groovy, so my bad.
<teward> i rest my case
<teward> your updated version has to go against Groovy
<teward> since we're focal-closed
<teward> so it fails in Grooby
<teward> Groovy*
<Eickmeyer> Right. Didn't think it would be that far removed.
<teward> with the log i pastebinned
<teward> well it looks like g++ errors
<teward> so perhaps toolchain differences?
<teward> or some dep along the way went wonky?
<teward> (that's your investigation :P)
<teward> until it clean builds here, NACK on upload
<Eickmeyer> ^ You didn't have to tell me that. :P
<Eickmeyer> teward: Reported upstream, they're quite responsive: https://github.com/sadko4u/lsp-plugins/issues/104
<Eickmeyer> We'll see what happens next. I suspect a hotfix soon.
<teward> ppa failure too heh
<teward> so NOT my env
<Eickmeyer> Right, I just tested in my own PPA as well.
<Eickmeyer> Had to in order to at least get a log that was better than a pastebin. :P
<Eickmeyer> teward: I didn't think it was your environment, but would've laughed if it was.
 * StevenJayCohen sent a long message:  < https://matrix.org/_matrix/media/r0/download/matrix.org/PeuaCxGXxoVbFOFTnLOxWMUW >
<StevenJayCohen> Again, I told them their answer to #1 and gave them the link to 15.04 being way beyond EOL
<StevenJayCohen> If there is a guide for how they could update their own Multiverse entry, that might be all they need.
<OvenWerks> Wow. 5 years behind? you can do that with windows? and mac?
<OvenWerks> I know something that old will not run on a new mac
<OvenWerks> (Ardour and at least one other DAW have that problem)
<StevenJayCohen> Reaper will run on Win98
<OvenWerks> Ardour will run on win xp
<OvenWerks> I don't know about 98
<StevenJayCohen> So, ignoring that bit, how do they update Multiverse so it stays in sync with the releases on their website?
<OvenWerks> but that is the wrong thinking, it is not so hard making it run on old stuff it is keeping up with macos digs every new release
<StevenJayCohen> true, is there a guide that I can send them about maintaining a Multiverse listing?
<OvenWerks> I am not the right person to ask. probably the first thing is to have a launchpad account and keep a PPA up. That will have the system on launchpad build against the right lib and tools sets.
<OvenWerks> the same tools chain can be set up on their own machine (I notice from the conversation last night)
<OvenWerks> StevenJayCohen: the biggest problem we have with packages, is a change in lib/toolchain versions... often right at freeze time :P
<StevenJayCohen> Got it, I found a good PPA explanation that I am going to send to them: https://itsfoss.com/ppa-guide/
<OvenWerks> we have lost some valuable applications in this way: GCDMaster, idjc, midimonitor, gnome2 (for that matter)
<StevenJayCohen> A PPA seems to be what they really wanted. It just didn't occur to me.
<OvenWerks> I don't see any reference to a git repo for it, so closed source but free bin. That may be difficult to do. I don't know if launchpad allows git repos that are private
<StevenJayCohen> We'll see. Maybe they'll eventually do flatpak
<OvenWerks> or static build
<StevenJayCohen> Reaper does a static build
<OvenWerks> A static build against X and alsa/jack I would guess
<OvenWerks> Or like Ardour does things in /opt/package/own lib/bin tree
<StevenJayCohen> in /opt
<StevenJayCohen> I was checking how they do their GUI
<StevenJayCohen> libSwell with gtk widgets
<StevenJayCohen> same thing they use for macOS
<StevenJayCohen> (the libSwell part)
<OvenWerks> I think /opt was the original flatpack/snap
<OvenWerks> I think the newer snap does not add anything useful, flatpack I don't know well enough
<OvenWerks> snap removes the app from the system which is ok for some things... not anything with plugins though.
<OvenWerks> and lots of things have plugins of one sort or another
<OvenWerks> not just audio
<StevenJayCohen> I was shocked to find out that flatpak had better audio support than snap. I haven't had a chance to test that yet
<OvenWerks> snap is too far removed from the real system
<StevenJayCohen> right
<OvenWerks> one can not have an application in a snap that interacts with jack on the system
<OvenWerks> cause the snap app can't even see jack
<StevenJayCohen> seems like a good solution for a server app
<StevenJayCohen> not an end user app
<OvenWerks> snap has its place, but it is being pushed for uses outside it's place
<OvenWerks> the main reason snap and flatpack have apeal, is the ease of use from a dev standpoint
<OvenWerks> but when you add interface with the system, the dev has to know that part anyway and then these tools are no easier than just using /opt
<Eickmeyer> Just read the backscroll. A EOL release 5+ years old? That's a security nightmare. If they don't upgrade, they could become part of a botnet for all we know.
<Eickmeyer> StevenJayCohen: The other thing they seem to be worried about is packaging, when that isn't their job.
<Eickmeyer> Their job would simply to provide the source code and any compilation instructions. We take it from there.
<StevenJayCohen> Agreed, no idea why they were supporting it
<StevenJayCohen> That's why I think they'd be happier with a PPA. It would be more in their control, which is what it sounds like they want
<Eickmeyer> That's true.
<StevenJayCohen> I've interviewed them before. Students at the university do various jobs. So, if its a PPA, then some students on their end could maintain it (possibly for credit)
<Eickmeyer> Bear in mind though, even they're part of Launchpad, we can't support PPAs. So, when things go wrong because someone installed from a PPA, they're pretty much out of luck and need to contact the PPA owner.
<StevenJayCohen> No expectation of us supporting enything, just making it easier than them sticking a deb file on the download page that needs gdebi to properly isntall
<Eickmeyer> That's an excellent point.
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: I could not find the source for that project.
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: Neither could I, hence it's closed-source, so they'd have to use a PPA or open source it.
<Eickmeyer> teward: The issue with lsp-plugins is fixed, but it's going to be a bit. I'd like to see them do a new release first.
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: so audacity or mhwaveedit...
<Eickmeyer> Audacity is the more well-known tool. I'd go with that.
<OvenWerks> audacity comes with it's own set of effects some of which are quite good. mhwaveedit deals better with jack.
<Eickmeyer> Right, but audacity is cross-platform and more well-known to people coming from Windows and Mac.
<OvenWerks> the truth of the matter is that because this is a audio file editor and not realtime stuff anyway and so even using audacity with pulse is normally "just fine"
<Eickmeyer> Exactly. It's not like you're dealing with more than two channels typically in that case.
<OvenWerks> mhwaveedit has not seen much if any development (at least that is visible). So no I would not include it.
<Eickmeyer> The only place where Audacity loses out is that it doesn't register itself as a Jack client, but for the most part it works.
 * Eickmeyer is tempted to drop qjackctl from the seed
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: You might want to comment back on Ross's reply.
<Eickmeyer> Getting rid of the ladspa plugins for calf definitely stopped the loading problems, but Calf itself likes to crash Ardour, iirc.
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: is my reply good enough? :P
<teward> Eickmeyer: so they hotfixed but you want to wait for their next release then
<teward> Sorry i got busy :)
<Eickmeyer> teward: Yeah, let's wait for next release, my guess is he doesn't want to wait long on this, he has a couple other fixes to get in.
<teward> Makes sense
<teward> Ping me when thats ready and we can run the builds again to make sure it works
<Eickmeyer> Ok.
<Eickmeyer> What I did in my PPA most recently (eeickmeyer/ppa2) is the build with the bugfix, and it succeeded. Just FYI.
<Eickmeyer> Basically, the LV2 headers changed.
<Eickmeyer> Not a g++ issue.
<teward>  Cool
<teward> At least they were fast to fix it
<Eickmeyer> From their perspective it would've sucked to release something that won't build.
<teward> True xD
#ubuntustudio-devel 2020-05-12
<RikMills> Eickmeyer: yes, that systemsetting crash is just because new Kirigami is stuck in proposed (due to ppc64el test builder outage)
<StevenJayCohen> One of the Audacity contributors, Paul Licamelli, is an audiobook narrator. 
<StevenJayCohen> He and I have worked on some features he's added to the program specifically for narration. 
<StevenJayCohen> What exactly is the Audacity issue with Jack? 
<OvenWerks> StevenJayCohen: A jack application should open any ports it expects to ever use at application start and not close them until application close. The ports should have reasonable names that the user can figure out actually belong to that program. I will explain more.
<StevenJayCohen> I will forward Paul whatever you think might be helpful
<OvenWerks> I open Audacity after setting the audio to jack. I expect to find "Audacity" ports in the jack graph so I can connect thembut there are none. Then when I press record, two ports appear and auto connects to system_1/2... but it is already recording and if I want to reconnect to different ports I have missed part of the recording...
<OvenWerks> so I am recording silence until I reconnect the ports. Not only that the ports are called "Portaudio" and the port numbers are in_6/7???
<OvenWerks> Oh wait, I stop recording and start again and the port names have changed! now they are in_8 and 9
<OvenWerks> So I can't even use something like jack_plumbing to audo connect because the port name is a moving target.
<OvenWerks> Concider someone who is recording there guitar on channel 4 and is using guitarix as a amp emulator. They want to record the output of guitarix but they can't really do that except after it is already recording.
<OvenWerks> Concider mhWaveEdit as an example. It is not as nice as Audacity, in fact it is rather basic. But it gets the jack connects right. As soon as mhwaveedit starts, there are jack ports available. They are named mhwe:inL/inR every time all the time.
<OvenWerks> Hmmm, I am also noticing that Audacity does not set the project rate to the actual sample rate
<OvenWerks> StevenJayCohen: I like Audacity for editing audio files but pretty much use it connected to pulse so I can pre connect pulse's i/o to where it needs to be because pulse's ports are always there and always the same name
<OvenWerks> At least for recording I can put Audacity in Pause then record and can set up port routing but for playback I only ever have ports while the transport is rolling.
<OvenWerks> Another reason for having ports available ahead of time is for setting levels. Inputs most important, but outputs as well.
<OvenWerks> I might suggest that even when not using jack, some of these points are important
<OvenWerks> We use Audacity for overall recording on a windows machine and being able to set input levels before recording is a pet peeve of those who use it this way as well.
<OvenWerks> StevenJayCohen: is that reasonably clear?
<StevenJayCohen> This is perfect
<Eickmeyer> RikMills: Ok, that's what I thought after doing investigating on my own in update-excuses., glad you could confirm it.
<StevenJayCohen> OvenWerks:  From Paul about Audacity: "I will forward this information to the team, and we might try to fix the problem in the next release, which is scheduled to be a very short one (about a month)."
<StevenJayCohen> 2.4, their current release mostly addresses issues with macOS Catalina
<StevenJayCohen> It looks like the repo is 1 version behind that one. So, you may have Audacity/JACK working together for the 20.10 release
<StevenJayCohen>  * So, you may have Audacity/JACK working together for the 20.10 release
<OvenWerks> StevenJayCohen: thank you. Audacity I a good program for it's various features. I do not think there is something we can replace it with that is open source.
<StevenJayCohen> Happy to help. Paul is eager on his end of things
<RikMills> Eickmeyer: kirigami is about to migrate :)
<Eickmeyer> RikMills: \o/
#ubuntustudio-devel 2020-05-13
 * OvenWerks thinks he has blacklist in autojack... now to get the GUI to work in studio-controls
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: I added the gui add/remove from blacklist... I just have to get All the other dropdowns everywhere to not show blacklisted devices :)
<OvenWerks> Then I can start testing
<OvenWerks> actually I guess I could manually insert one device in the config to test autojack first.
<OvenWerks> tomorrow...
 * OvenWerks heads for bed
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: how far away are we from switching to studio-controls in 20.10 ISOs?
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: Depends. With the bug/regression in ubuntustudio-controls I had to have the archive admins pull teward's upload from the queue. I'm guessing that bug is fixed in current studio-controls?
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: maybe a better question: will the backport PPA have a ubuntustudio controls that removes most of itself and has a studio-controls as dep?
<Eickmeyer> Yes.
 * OvenWerks is looking for a way to switch from one to the other...
<Eickmeyer> I think we can work on that today. I just want to make sure studio-controls is going to be in the archive for 20.10 before moving forward.
<OvenWerks> If we can even just have it in a PPA so I can savely remove US-C and install S-C
<OvenWerks> is US-C actually in a meta? I know installer installs it ahaed of time anyway.
<Eickmeyer> It's in ubuntustudio-audio.
<OvenWerks> I'm just wondering if I remove US-c if it will remove the meta too :(
<Eickmeyer> It shouldn't. It's a recommends, not a depends.
<OvenWerks> does deb have a replaces? I guess it is provides
<Eickmeyer> I already have ubuntustudio-controls ready to upload as a meta dummy.
<Eickmeyer> I just need studio-controls in the archive first.
<OvenWerks> I am just about finished adding blacklisting... I just have to get the dropdown refreshing right.
<OvenWerks> It would be better for testing if the US-c is removed
<OvenWerks> I guess I can chmod -x ubuntustudio controls
<Eickmeyer> Well, then I'll just do with the most recent tag.
<Eickmeyer> I'll see if I can make a separate PPA for this.
<OvenWerks> daily might be just fine
<OvenWerks> if I try to remove controls it wants to remove menu-add, branding-common, menu and installer
<Eickmeyer> Yeah, don't remove it just yet. I know you're anxious to get testing, but it's just going to cause problems if you do it right away.
<Eickmeyer> I'm working on it right now.
<OvenWerks> no rush
 * OvenWerks is debugging
<OvenWerks> I am finding figguring out rules for splitting python lines hard.
<Eickmeyer> Eesh....
<Eickmeyer> I wish we had someone willing to help with python stuff.
<Eickmeyer> Unrelated: Launchpad is being sloooooooowwww today.
<Eickmeyer> Internal uploads are taking forever.
<OvenWerks> I have, for now, just used long lines instead of splitting them.
<OvenWerks> python is *&^%$!!
<OvenWerks> if one has a value that is part of a list like value[3][2] the best place to split it value[
<OvenWerks> 3][2] or value[3][
<OvenWerks> 2]
<OvenWerks> that ought'a be great for readability....
 * OvenWerks notes that splitting value[2], another right after the , will be a syntax error :P
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: If you want to test, if you have the Autobuilds PPA added, you could do "sudo apt update && sudo apt upgrade" and it should give you studio-controls automatically.
<Eickmeyer> I had to make a new version of ubuntustudio-installer and edit it to look for studio-system as opposed to ubuntustudio-system.
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: :)
<OvenWerks> does it look for both? or the versions have to match?
<Eickmeyer> The versions have to match.
<Eickmeyer> Should happen automatically. It'll upgrade ubuntustudio-controls to the dummy metapackage that pulls-in studio-controls, and ubuntustudio-installer has a dependency on studio-controls, so it all gets resolved.
<OvenWerks> cool
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: because there is no longer a debian/changelog... we need to keep notes.txt up to date :) or maybe change the name to something more apropriate
<Eickmeyer> Yeah, that would be good.
<Eickmeyer> Maybe a CHANGELOG in the root.
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: am I ok to upload to github
<Eickmeyer> Yes, you are. :)
<Eickmeyer> teward: studio-controls is ready for upload to groovy, needed before I can upgrade some other packages that depend on it (ubuntustudio-installer, ubuntustudio-controls transitional metapackage, and the seed). https://launchpad.net/studio-controls
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: pushed. I updated notes.txt as if it was a changelog. feel free to rename it... maybe keep the last changelog entry in there...
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: I did not put it in the changelog... but as part of adding blacklisting... "default" jack master seems to have vanished  ;)
<Eickmeyer> Uh, interesting.
<Eickmeyer> Well, I'm probably going to add this later, probably to get what we've got (1.99.1) which is code-identical to ubuntustudio-controls in Groovy now.
<Eickmeyer> I think what you've got becomes 2.0.0
<OvenWerks> no problem, I have more to go anyway.
<teward> Eickmeyer: going to upload it in a bit.  Literally had a hard blackout today
<teward> like unconscious passing out kind
<teward> so slowly returning to the world of the awake
<Eickmeyer> teward: I was about to ask power or consciousness. Not good.
<teward> well
<teward> halo 2 dropped for PC gamers last night
<teward> meant to play it for an hour
<teward> played it until 3AM
<teward> 6AM wakeup
<teward> E:NOSLEEP
 * Eickmeyer need to buy that
<Eickmeyer> teward: How's that consciousness going?
<teward> food is required
<teward> i is cooking
<Eickmeyer> Nom nom
<teward> build suceeded and is lintian clean uploading to groovy
<teward> Eickmeyer: pushed, to New
<Eickmeyer> teward: Thanks
<Eickmeyer> Now for me to incessently bug ubuntu-archive until they actually do something with it.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2020-05-14
<Eickmeyer> teward: We're going to need a new upload of studio-controls, pushed changes, it's ready, RAOF reviewed.
<Eickmeyer> Basically, old packaging errors.
<teward> *rolls eyes*
<teward> Eickmeyer: uploaded
<Eickmeyer> teward: Thanks.
<Eickmeyer> Not sure if you saw the changes.
<teward> nope because E:Tired
<teward> didn't look what'd you unfubar this time
<teward> ahhhh
<teward> debian/notinstalled - don't install service
<teward> specifically put the two systemd/lib files in the install
<teward> remove autostart confifiles for maintscript, and remove postinst
<teward> next 24-36 hours is going to be unfubaring my tired state
<Eickmeyer> teward: Best of luck. :D
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: This is something I would like to play with at some point: https://github.com/davidmoreno/rtpmidid
<OvenWerks> In my plan to be able to control the world from -controls ;)
<Eickmeyer> Interesting.
<OvenWerks> it is already built into MacOS
<Eickmeyer> There's Debian builds.
<OvenWerks> it seems to be more "standard" than ipmidi.
<OvenWerks> However, having said that, I think MIDI 2.0 is supposed to come with a network transport protocol... or at least it would mean the rewriting of either of the above
<Eickmeyer> tsimonq2: Are you around, I have Calamares questions.
<studiobot> <teward001> doubt Simon'll be on for at least another 2-3 hours
<studiobot> <teward001> simon's never online anymore :P
<Eickmeyer> Meh. No huge deal. I'm thinking we might switch from Ubiquity to Calamares now that we don't use that meta selection module anymore.
<Eickmeyer> And because ubiquity-kde is hardcoded to Kubuntu.
<Eickmeyer> I found what I was looking for anyhow.
<studiobot> <teward001> cool
#ubuntustudio-devel 2020-05-15
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: I definately nned to set up the pulse bridge output auto connect to be able to do all HW devices we know about not just system
<OvenWerks> so any extra devices or autodetected USB or bluetooth (when I get there)
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: Sounds good. I think we're to the point where everything is in s-c now.
<Eickmeyer> BTW, I'm making an executive decision and we're moving our system installer from Ubiquity to Calamares. Working with the Lubuntu team on that is going to be thousands of times easier than getting the Foundations team to do anything with fixing Ubiquity-KDE.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2020-05-16
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: now is the time for sure
<tsimonq2> Eickmeyer: I'm online, but sporatically these days.
<Eickmeyer> tsimonq2: Gotcha.
<tsimonq2> teward: Good luck predicting my schedyle.
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: some comments about the 20.10 iso. No browser in favourites? Dual screens does not use twp different backdrops. Konsole seems to have added keyboard shortcuts since 20.04 (Alt+1 to Alt+9) very anoying as applications inside the terminal already use them :P
<OvenWerks> what else, oh yeah, it is not obvous which window has focus. It may be that the theme you wish to use is not here yet
<OvenWerks> I would drop the ebook reader and thunderbird from favourites before the browser :)
<OvenWerks> controls does not run
<OvenWerks> Ah there we are
<OvenWerks> it seems that favourites has ubuntustudio-controls which will not run but in Audio Production I find Studio-controls (way at the bottom) and that dose run... but tells me I need to fix real time permitions.
<OvenWerks> I think what is happening with that last is that our metas are installed after first login. So another logout in is required
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: after reboot... most of the trouble seems to have gone away. favourites looks better, ubuntustudio-controls icon is gone
<OvenWerks> real time is ok.
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: So I am guessing that the installer change you want to do will fix the install?
<OvenWerks> That would be nice
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: generally it looks pretty good. There are way too many things hard coded in KDE
<OvenWerks>  I notice that even though you have the US screen while plasma is starting up, the settings manager shows as if it was the default Kubuntu screen... I guess if .config does not have a change in it, settings assumes their default.
<OvenWerks> Not branding friendly
<OvenWerks> I am guessing it will require a /etc/xdg/ubuntustudio/ sub menu to make things right? Or do we clone/revise some kubuntu packages?
<OvenWerks> hmm s/menu/directory/
<teward> Eickmeyer: FTBFS is not good :)
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: Uh.... it's not done yet.
<Eickmeyer> As far as favorties go, it's some sort of bug that happens sporadically with calibre taking-over .html. There's a race condition.
<Eickmeyer> And anything that is Kubuntu is definitely the installer, like I've been saying.
<Eickmeyer> Once we move to Calamares, that will go away.
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: What do you mean the settings manager shows as if it was the default Kubuntu screen?
<Eickmeyer> I don't understand.
<OvenWerks> while plasma is starting up it has a "splash screen". This splash screen has a ubuntustudio logo. So far so good.
<Eickmeyer> Yes. I made that myself.
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: Are you getting Kubuntu and KDE phrasing mixed-up?
<OvenWerks> now if I go into the setting app startup and shutdown->splash screen, it shows "Breeze" as being the current splash screen in use. My asumption is that this is because if I haven't asked for a new choice, settings thinks it must be default and shows it as default
<OvenWerks> (what it thinks is default)
<Eickmeyer> Yes, the settings are hardcoded to think "Breeze" if there's nothing in .config.
<OvenWerks> I picked that one to make a point, but it seems to me there were other cases of similar things.
<Eickmeyer> But, you'll notice, that if you log out, the screen is the Ubuntu Studio screen.
<OvenWerks> yes, it is just the settings app that is wrong
<Eickmeyer> Yes. Nothing we can do about that.
<Eickmeyer> And I don't know why the ebook reader is taking the spot of the browser. I might just change the default to firefox.desktop.
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: I think that was the installer
<Eickmeyer> No, it's not the installer.
<OvenWerks> It looked like the first time I logged in all the US metas got installed and after I logged out and back in again firefox was there
<OvenWerks> (and the ebook reader and ubuntustudio-controls were gone)
<Eickmeyer> Live session != installer
<Eickmeyer> It's a race condition happening in the live session.
<OvenWerks> I am talking about the installed version, after first boot
<OvenWerks>  and then it is different after second boot
<Eickmeyer> Ok, yeah, that makes sense. I'm looking at the live session and it shows the E-book Editor as the browser.
<OvenWerks> After first boot the installer comes up and says there are a pile of installs to do
<OvenWerks> after those are finished and I reboot things are fine.
<Eickmeyer> Here's the file that determines the default favorites: https://git.launchpad.net/ubuntustudio-default-settings/tree/etc/xdg/kickoffrc
<OvenWerks> Live is a different matter :)
<Eickmeyer> Also, I did a test install and didn't encounter the Studio Controls problem.
<Eickmeyer> It shows by default in the live session and should also show after installation.l
<OvenWerks> I think once the installer is fixed things will be good
<OvenWerks> live may take a bit, but really you have just started and form that POV things are quite good. It is workable.
<Eickmeyer> That's really the only thing that is left. The installer (ubiquity-kde) is hardcoded to replace Ubuntu with Kubuntu and only display Kubuntu and its logo for installation. Hence, moving to Calamares because the Ubuntu Foundations Team has complete control over that and they move slower than molassees.
<OvenWerks> (On Mars)
<Eickmeyer> Rather, foundations has control over Ubiquity, whereas Lubuntu wants Calamares to be all-inclusive.
<Eickmeyer> Indeed, on mars.
<Eickmeyer> I can honestly say that they would look at it, but probably wouldn't have it fixed until after Beta. I'm tired of having to go through them every time I make a change to the slideshow too.
<OvenWerks> ubuntu server and desktop are the first priority
<Eickmeyer> Not even Desktop. Server, cloud, and IoT.
<OvenWerks> Whatever makes money
<OvenWerks> The installer should be like all other SW, highly configurable
<Eickmeyer> Exactly. That's what Calamares is, which is why we're changing.
<Eickmeyer> calamares.io in case you're wondering.
<OvenWerks> How far away is that do you think?
<Eickmeyer> Well, I'm pretty much done, it just needs testing. In order for that to happen, I need the Lubuntu team to upload the new calamares-settings-ubuntu package, which I'm an official contributor to now.
<Eickmeyer> I might see if it can be added to the packageset, which I don't think would be too much of an issue.
<Eickmeyer> Settings are mirrored at https://github.com/lubuntu-team/calamares-settings-ubuntu if you want to see them.
<OvenWerks> So the best way to experience it at this point would be to DL lubuntu?
<Eickmeyer> At this point, yes.
<Eickmeyer> It would just be the Lubuntu branding, but I've tested the Ubuntu Studio branding on it with the settings I've made and I'm happy with it.
<Eickmeyer> That said, I will need to update the screenshots in the slideshow.
<OvenWerks> At least we can start now and not September
<Eickmeyer> Exactly.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2020-05-17
<OvenWerks> Let me know when it hits the ISO. I don't see anything else that is bad at the moment
<Eickmeyer> Will do.
<Eickmeyer> So, I found out what's happening. Firefox is registering itself as the default for html, but then calibre is registering as default for xhtml+xml, which includes *.html files, which is tricking Plasma into thinking calibre as the default browser for the menu since it's first alphabetically. 
<Eickmeyer> I'll have to explicitly call for firefox to be in the menu.
<Eickmeyer> teward: New lsp-plugins at lp:lsp-plugins.
<Eickmeyer> 1.1.21 (apparently he skips even numbers?)
<Eickmeyer> As for why I'm not doing it: E:NoRights E:AAsSlacking
<OvenWerks> I like this line: "Distributions are strongly urged to package configuration files separately from Calamares itself, and to install them in /etc/calamares."
<Eickmeyer> Yep, hence calamares-settings-ubuntu is a separate package.
<testtester> .
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: Latest daily  (I forced a respin) doesn't have that bug where calibre is the default browser in the live session or after first boot, and I didn't have to specify the desktop file. I just had to tell Plasma which one should be the default.
<OvenWerks> Cool, I found I needed to change about three settings to get everything to work right
<Eickmeyer> This was the file I changed: https://git.launchpad.net/ubuntustudio-default-settings/tree/usr/share/ubuntustudio/kf5-settings/kdeglobals
<OvenWerks> Getting FF to be the browser was not so hard but then getting a right click on a URL in a terminal was something else.
<Eickmeyer> Just had to specify BrowserApplication[$e]=!firefox
<Eickmeyer> Tomorrow might have the second wallpaper fixed.
<Eickmeyer> My fix should take care of that.
<OvenWerks> you are making me feel lazy
<Eickmeyer> (the URL in the terminal)
<Eickmeyer> hahaha
<OvenWerks> I was hoping to find a dbus signal for headphone pine detect...
<OvenWerks> but I am guessing I will have to make my own
<petergk> ahooy
<petergk> I have seen that UbuntuStudio will go for KDE Plasma in the next release
<petergk> is it true?
<eylul[m]> yep
<petergk> hmm
<petergk> so I need to drop the distro from my studio :<
<Eickmeyer> petergk: Why?
<petergk> kde is really tragic
<Eickmeyer> Maybe during Plasma 4, but Plasma 5 is much better.
<Eickmeyer> We took TWO YEARS to evaluate before making the decision.
<petergk> I thought that's why you guys selected xfce,
<petergk> for reduce unncessary power consumption, resource consumption
<Eickmeyer> Xfce was selected to keep a consistent experience from GNOME 2 because MATE wasn't a thing yet.
<petergk> I think the real value of the distro is the production capability
<petergk> ok I got it
<Eickmeyer> Don't believe the myth that Plasma takes more resources. It does, by about 50MB.
<petergk> ok, but is it as stable?
<Eickmeyer> Yes!
<petergk> ok
<Eickmeyer> Has a larger community of developers too.
<petergk> but I would like to thank you guys your work, it's the most useful distro on the market
<petergk> I made my own small slax based distros to achieve that many years ago
<petergk> but please be prepared, the kde plasma will pull out the plug at many artists
<Eickmeyer> petergk: We've had more positive responses with the decision than negative.
<petergk> still better than gnome....
<petergk> interesting
<Eickmeyer> Are you here to contribute or complain?
<petergk> I try to do both, with an honest opinion, as a person who is in the vfx/cgi industry for 16 years
<petergk> I would gently say the move is concerning.
<petergk> your stuff, your decision, I am just thankful for your distro beside  this
<Eickmeyer> I'm a video producer for 18 years and a live audio engineer for 26 years.
<petergk> nice
<Eickmeyer> I look at every decision through that lens.
<Eickmeyer> So, if you think that your concerns haven't been met, I assure you they have.
<Eickmeyer> We are not using the biggest resource hog in Plasma: the akonadi PIM server. That's not part of the default setup, and will not be.
<petergk> ok I trust you
<Eickmeyer> We're also working with the Plasma developers to optimize it. I'm in constant communication with the upstream KDE community.
<petergk> nice good to hear
<Eickmeyer> So, believe me when I say we didn't make the decision lightly.
<petergk> they made several good apps around kde community, they came out pretty well
<petergk> I will also give it a try, as soon as I have a little time
<Eickmeyer> Kdenlive and Digikam are great examples.
<petergk> krita
<petergk> also
<Eickmeyer> ^ That too.
<Eickmeyer> And you know they're developing those apps using Plasma.
<petergk> I have no idea :D
<Eickmeyer> Well, they're KDE apps, so why wouldn't they?
<petergk> I had so many bad experience with kde 12 years ago....
<Eickmeyer> That was 12 years ago, during KDE 4. Plasma 5 is WAY different. It was rewritten from the ground up.
<petergk> I have no idea what is the development pipeline there
<petergk> qt was also not funny
<Eickmeyer> Qt != The Qt Company
<petergk> we used openmotif and fltk....
<Eickmeyer> There's an entire team of the KDE community dedicated to making sure Qt stays free.
 * Eickmeyer has errands and other things to do today.
<petergk> we will see.... :D
<petergk> but thanks
<petergk> and thank you for your work
<Eickmeyer> You can feel free to try the daily images at https://cdimage.ubuntu.com/ubuntustudio/dvd if you want to see. Bear in mind, it's far from done.
<Eickmeyer> Ugh, he left.
<eylul[m]> :)
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: it may have been useful to say: you can still have the same experience by installing xubuntu and adding Studio with ubuntustudio-installer.
<OvenWerks> or lubuntu for even less resources
<StevenJayCohen> <OvenWerks "Eickmeyer: it may have been usef"> Is the future of Studio ever to no longer be a flavor of its own and just focus on a seamless experience regardless of the flavor it is added to? Would that be less or more work?
<OvenWerks> StevenJayCohen: I think it would end up being more work.
<OvenWerks> Studio would no longer be a flavour and so not enjoy what little attention we get from the core development team now
<OvenWerks> Being a flavour means we have a reason for keeping things in the repo that ub untu would like to drop 
<StevenJayCohen> It just seems that the goal is different than the other flavors, so the desktop choice seems to be a distraction.
<OvenWerks> As you can see from the discusion above, many people expect to just install and go.
<StevenJayCohen> I think that's because it's a flavor instead of an option to add to an existing flavor by default. You shouldn't need to keep telling people they can install it on top of whatever *buntu they choose.
<OvenWerks> some people are delighted by being able to put Studio on top of whatever, others not so much
<OvenWerks> Also the live iso allows people to try tings out or even run on any old hardware that happens to be where they are right now. Studio in a pocket
<StevenJayCohen> Not arguing that point. Since people do not know by default that they have the option to install studio into other flavors, there is a messaging issue. Why don't people know that it's possible? Especially with the KDE migration, getting them to understand that you are not removing their choice is more important.
 * OvenWerks thinks that is not his department ;)
<OvenWerks> but yes that is a good point
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: did we ever do a Studio on whatever flavour you want release statement?
<StevenJayCohen> Why KDE? The Studio Team mostly default to KDE, and KDE has these benefits (1, 2, 3, etc) but Studio is unique among the flavors that it can be added to other flavors...
<StevenJayCohen> Cue the Reeses Peanutbutter Cup commercial
<StevenJayCohen> You got Studio in my XFCE! You got XFCE in my Studio!
<StevenJayCohen> yadda... yadda... yadda... 
<StevenJayCohen> Will Studio break *buntu? No! Studio adds media creation powers to any *buntu!
<StevenJayCohen> Not just *buntu -- *buntu+STUDIO
<OvenWerks> StevenJayCohen: ok you've been pushed into doing PR
<StevenJayCohen> Pushed? It seemed more like I jumped.
<OvenWerks> (no such thing as hired here)
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: We did, quite some time ago. Maybe I need to just do one. 
<Eickmeyer> As far as the response goes, the positive responses have been VERY positive, but the negative responses have been few and loud.
<Eickmeyer> Where I have a problem is when people come into the development chat and tell us we're wrong. Unless they're willing to stick around and contribute and make it better, their words have no merit.
<Eickmeyer> That guy clearly wasn't willing to stick around.
<OvenWerks> I could see that
<OvenWerks> Yeah one of those here is my (correct) opinion, fix it.
<Eickmeyer> Exactly. That doesn't fly in a mertiocracy.
<krytarik> Hah, funnily enough one could also say 12 years ago the experience with GNOME was really good, so it must be good still too! XD
<OvenWerks> gnome is great.... if all you do is browse
<OvenWerks> it is also great for a group of people for who search based workflows work well.
<krytarik> Well tbh, it quite nicely fits my mom's bill anyway.
 * OvenWerks doesn't happen to be one of those people
<eylul[m]> gnome is optimized for casual/office user
<eylul[m]> from what I can tell
<OvenWerks> my search terms almost always turn up trash
<eylul[m]> easy to use, intuitive hard for it to go wrong
<eylul[m]> but the tradeoff for it is lack of customization often, and not being useful for power users
<eylul[m]> plasma is very power users oriented, and creative person oriented
<eylul[m]> and gives a lot of tools to adjust to your workflow rather than force its own
<eylul[m]> different goals
<eylul[m]> both are very successful solutions
<eylul[m]> but there is a reason why we need both
<eylul[m]> :))
