#ubuntu-artwork 2005-12-05
<mhz> I think I finished a SVG file for some invitations I will hand in to teachers and parents at a local schol
<mhz> school
<mhz> However, when I print, it seems something's wrong because edubuntu logo gets a stupid line out of its round shape
<mhz> BTW, i'm printing it 720x300 dpi
<mhz> well, some little contrib. to edubuntu artwork has been wikied
<Tm_T> hi kids
<Tm_T> wtf
<Tm_T> artnay: no themes to irssi, it's good he way it is
<artnay> ok, opinion noted.
<artnay> to-do updated
<Tm_T> you checked msg I sent too?
<Tm_T> and about backgrounds... is svg reguired?
<Tm_T> I can do some :p
<artnay> SVG is the preferred format
<Tm_T> I thought so
<artnay> damn, forums are down. bvc just sent me a message
<artnay> no dice, disconnected :/
<Tm_T> :/
<artnay> first of all, we should link those projects to each other. what needs to be done before something else can be done etc.
<artnay> then priorize them
<artnay> e.g. we first need navigation icons before fx theme can be done
<Tm_T> yu
<artnay> we could think about the dependencies now and then list them to to-do list/wiki
<artnay> are you guys willing to help us? :o
<Tm_T> I'm just spying here ;)
<Tm_T> I'll help if I can, but can't take much responsibility atm, too much projects already
<Tm_T> maybe in february or may I have more time
<artnay> it's too late then
<Tm_T> I thought so
<artnay> artwork should be ready before mid March
<artnay> then just finalize it before Dapper gets released
<Tm_T> so I try february ;)
<artnay> but the end of March is the max. deadline
<artnay> before that all major artwork projects should be done
<artnay> so we're running out of time unless we get more ppl
<Tm_T> heh
<Tm_T> that reminds me, supposed to do some Kubuntu backgrounds ->
<artnay> provide an easy way humanize your KDE desktop
<artnay> ;)
<artnay> yeah, it's typo day today...
<artnay> oh damn
<artnay> it wasn't bvc who sent me a msg, some guy just asking how to pimp KDE :>
<Tm_T> not me!
<artnay> damn, I need the reply from bvc
<artnay> he's been on forums many times since I sent the msg
<artnay> I should probably just send that msg to volvoguy and see what he thinks. After all, he's the boss
<Tm_T> ..nnooo
<Tm_T> :p
<Tm_T> about fonts: I prefer dejavu fonts
<artnay> mhz: care to give us a link for your SVG?
<mhz> sure! for which? (i usually upload SVG's)
<artnay> the one you were talking about earlier
<mhz> artnay: hehhe, sorry. in edubuntu?
<artnay> mhz: yeah
<artnay> always give us nice images if possible x)
<Tm_T> is it possible ;)
<mhz> artnay: i wish i could provide the best sources possible. However, i'm just staring generating files using Gimp or Inkscape
<mhz> artnay: does this help? http://wiki.edubuntu.org/EdubuntuChileArtwork?action=AttachFile&do=get&target=tc_edubuntu_wallpaperV1.svg
<artnay> mhz: not really, I'm at work (playing with this damn XP)
<mhz> hehehe
<artnay> and I don't have a proper SVG program here
<artnay> makes me sad
<mhz> artnay: but was that the link you wanted?
<artnay> probably, thanks
<artnay> I'll check it out later
<mhz> artnay: np. please. any help is mostly appreaciated
<mhz> (esp. since I feel totaly newbie here in artwork :) )
<artnay> mhz: is there a png version available for web browsers?
<mhz> artnay: of same? there's a jpg one. Select attachments on that page and you'll get ti
<mhz> it
<artnay> mhz: it's quite small
<artnay> but good to see more stuff popping out :)
<mhz> artnay: the JPG (not the png) is available if you use MoreActions -> Attachments. [del | get | view]  (32.7 KB) attachment:tc_edubuntu_wallpaperV1_s.jpg
<mhz> that JPG is 800 x 600
<mhz> afaik
<mhz> artnay: the png (very small) is just meant as a preview
<mhz> Moin has a plugin for galleries but not implemented in ubuntu sites
<mhz> hence I create the small versions and 'attach' the normal ones
<artnay> ok, now I see it clearly
<mhz> :)
* mhz thought he had lost his memory
<artnay> uhm, the idea is nice but a) maybe it's too much compressed as logo and those people seem kind of blurry b) the globe seems odd, countries are in wrong places etc.
<artnay> but if it's meant for kids, it doesn't need to be photorealistic :o
<mhz> artnay: hehehe
<mhz> I agree with you. In the SVG all looks good but the missed placed countries
<mhz> that's why i dont' understand why the PNG and JPG looks blurry
<artnay> maybe you could take the same approach as i.e. worldatlas, draw all the countries there
<artnay> that way you could get rid of the edges and countries could be placed even better
<artnay> and then some "edubuntu ppl" walking here and there
<artnay> I don't know, just an idea... don't take it too seriously :)
<mhz> worldatlas? where?
<artnay> I mean sort of flat version
<mhz> oh
<mhz> it has to be round. Ubuntu font and logo are round
<mhz> so i meant to keep roundity :D
<artnay> ;)
<mhz> and the concept of earth united
<mhz> is also round
<mhz_house> artnay: if you know of any real cool GDM theme howto, please let me know. I tried yesterday and I realized XML is needed. Commented some parts/tags I didnt wanna use, but it did not work :(
* mhz_house BBS
<artnay> mhz: http://www.gnome.org/projects/gdm/
<artnay> that's all I have, don't use GDM anyways
<artnay> I'm quite disappointed as there is no search utility at GNOME.org
<artnay> are you supposed to use google? I guess
<artnay> and why isn't there anything about creating themes at the homepage of GDM?
<artnay> terrible
<mhz> artnay: hence I asked
<mhz> :)
<mhz> personally, I dont use GNOME
<artnay> me neither
<mhz> i prefer wmaker perfromance or fluxbox
<mhz> KDE is great but too heavy for me
<mhz> too many buttons
<mhz> :)
<artnay> I understand. It needs tweaking in order to get it "simple"
<artnay> it's too busy by default
<artnay> oh, no answer from bvc :(
<mhz> artnay: and the only knowledge i have about GDM is what ogra said (about backgrounds being 1600x1200) and what I see under /usr/share/gdm/
<mhz> bvc?
<ogra> mhz, i talked about wallpapers :)
<artnay> mhz: one of artworkers
<mhz> ogra: oh, sorry
<ogra> 1600x1200 and 1600x1000 are the sizes we ship
<mhz> ogra: artnay: I am testing this idea (1rst one) of the edubuntu and world for both GDM and wallpaper
<mhz> ogra: why 2?
<artnay> mhz: for 4:3 and 16:9
<ogra> widescreen
<artnay> different ratios
<mhz> ahhhhhhh
* mhz only has this 10 inches laptop to test :D
<mhz> and I can add a line to xorg (virtual)
<mhz> to get real wider screen
<ogra> throw your widescreen stuff at me ... i have a widescreen laptop
<mhz> artnay: so once I feel work is ok in SVG. how do i make it look good for JPG and/or PNG?
<mhz> ogra: ok
<artnay> mhz: just export it (you're using inkscape, right?) and don't rape it by compressing it too much
<mhz> artnay: export options gimme PNG only
<mhz> and iirc, wallpapers need to be JPG and GDM uses PNG
<mhz> artnay: and I will change the world image
* mhz BRB
<artnay> mhz: the most idealistic format to be used as a BG is SVG
<artnay> you can always export it to png/jpg/whatever, but if possible, make it SVG
<mhz> artnay: sure BG will handle SVG?
<artnay> mhz: at least in GNOME and KDE
<mhz> artnay: i do prefer svg for everything
<artnay> and if user for some reason doesn't want to use SVG, one can always export it
<mhz> artnay: we are talking about wallpapers or backgrounds for Login display managers?
<artnay> mhz: for desktop
<artnay> I don't think GDM handles SVGs
<mhz> artnay: so when you say BG you mean wallpaper?
<Tm_T> well, KDE and Gnome might render svg differently than inkscape for example (they do I know, several issues with it)
<Tm_T> so png is safe choice
<artnay> yeah, sorry for the inconvenience
<mhz> ogra: see? that's why get confused
<ogra> all gnome apps handle svg fine ...
<ogra> at least since cairo 
<artnay> unless it has to scale to small sizes
<Tm_T> yes, fine, but differently than some svg editors
<mhz> so, to sum up... GDM and KDM prefer PNG. (ok, I'll se what it looks like) But, why a jpg wallpaper made in SVG and got exported to, looks so blurry?
<ogra> thats a problem with svg, not the renderer
<Tm_T> I had example somewhere...
<artnay> mhz: is the original logo high res? is it SVG or some badly compressed .jpg?
<artnay> sorry, png
<ogra> Tm_T, if you find such a prob, please file a bug so we can solve it
<artnay> then you resize it to be larger only to see that the quality is terrible
<Tm_T> http://www.kapsi.fi/~tm_travolta/kuvat/temp/difference.png
<artnay> ogra: it's well-known problem that SVGs don't scale very well to 16x16 or 22x22
<ogra> artnay, yes, thats not a but
<ogra> thats the nature of vector graphics
<ogra> *bug
<artnay> yep
<artnay> Tm_T: I guess the development of sodipodi has been discontinued and that is why it has problems
<ogra> yup
<Tm_T> artnay: sodipodi and inkscape shows it pretty much same way
<ogra> not in your screenshot
<mhz> artnay: all I do so far is SVG only
<mhz> no idea how to use GIMP the way I can use inkscape
<artnay> Tm_T: no they don't. Konq and inkscape do it the right way there but sodipodi's shot differs from others
<ogra> konq also has a bug 
<Tm_T> artnay: konqi is that one in background... you see those round corners?
<artnay> mhz: well I haven't learned GIMP either... always done things with photoshop
<ogra> but what do you expect, its a browser, not a drawing app
<ogra> Tm_T, so file a bug on konqueror 
<Tm_T> ogra: that same ksvg renders wallpapers if you set KDE to use svg wallpaper
<artnay> Konq always adds edges to SVGs
<ogra> the rather a bug for ksvg
<Tm_T> ogra: and gimp shows that same svg like ksvg do
<artnay> if you click on a SVG file. but it on your desktop and it's drawn differently
* ogra stays away from KDE as far as he can, so he doesnt know the libs there
<mhz> artnay: oh, propietary soft :(
<artnay> but put...
<Tm_T> artnay: yu, and more and more
<Tm_T> that's why wallpapers should be png
<Tm_T> because youcan't be sure they are renderedd same way all the time
<Tm_T> typo day :(
<ogra> ubuntu wallpapers differ anyway between ubuntu/kubuntu ...
<Tm_T> true
<ogra> i dont think it matters
<Tm_T> but I talk about svg as wallpaper in any case
<Tm_T> whatever its kubuntu, ubuntu, or something else
<Tm_T> imho bad idea
<artnay> mhz: I don't use it anymore. I've been learning PS things because my school and former work place had only PS to offer
<Tm_T> over and out ->
<artnay> well the BG can always be exported to png before the release
<Tm_T> please do
<Tm_T> ->
<artnay> but if you release a BG for others, make it as SVG
<artnay> that way it's easy to change colours, add things etc.
<mhz> ok, me happier with SVG only
* mhz BBL
<lllmanulll> Hey there
<lllmanulll> I designed three new "tango style" icons for session management (Reboot, Shut Down, Log Out)
<lllmanulll> http://www.manucornet.net/GNOME/session_icons/
<lllmanulll> Any thoughts ?
<lllmanulll> Any ideas for the Hibernate one ?
<ogra> sheep jumping ?
<ogra> in a row
<lllmanulll> Hmm, I'm afraid it would be a little too comlplex ?
<lllmanulll> These will be rather small icons
<lllmanulll> no ?
<ogra> yup, likely 
<ogra> but a zzzZZZZ wouldnt be good either 
<lllmanulll> right...
<ogra> what do win and osX use ? 
<ogra> i have neither around here 
#ubuntu-artwork 2005-12-06
<derek[] > Hey
<mhz> re
<artnay> I added lllmanulll's icons to to-do list
<artnay> ok, bvc contacted me. now we just need to get volvoguy online
<artnay> ok, I sent a mail to AndyFitz. hopefully he replies soon
<artnay> Updated: http://users.evtek.fi/~jirig/artwork-todo
<artnay> http://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-art/2005-December/
<artnay> the 1st of December, almost forgot that :)
#ubuntu-artwork 2005-12-07
<FireRabbit> mojo, ;)
<FireRabbit> hey everyone, are the images used on the official ubuntu cds avaliable somewhere?
<AndyFitz> FireRabbit,  not to my knowledge.  are you after high res version?  you can always use a scanner :-) 
<AndyFitz> the are available within copies the  distro as files
<FireRabbit> yeah, high res would be nice
<FireRabbit> they are?
<AndyFitz> well   usr/share/gdm/themes/HumanCircle/circle.png
<AndyFitz> thats quite high res
<FireRabbit> oh well thats not quite the same
<FireRabbit> i am talking about the sticker on the cd it's self
<FireRabbit> do you know who was in charge of this? someone at canonical?
<AndyFitz> typically they have been using a studio for their cd's   I don't know about this release however
<FireRabbit> who would know?
<AndyFitz> I have the email address of the people who provided the original artwork  ( logo etc ) however I don't know if they are still a vendor for canonical
<AndyFitz> claire would know claire@canonical.com 
<FireRabbit> okay, thank you
<AndyFitz> actually jane would probably have more of an idea
<AndyFitz> jane.silber@canonical....
<FireRabbit> okay 
<artnay> list updated once again
<artnay> I should diff it or do some sort of changes log
<artnay> next thing we should do... create deps between the projects
<artnay> this should be ported to wiki
<artnay> would be much easier
<Tm_T> hmm, so we agreed earlier that backgrounds will be svg when working on them, but in release png?
<artnay> I think so
<artnay> bvc replied me but there's no word from andyfitz nor volvoguy
<Tm_T> ok
<Tm_T> then I will do some rough ideas soon
<artnay> how should we build the wiki?
<artnay> Artwork page would be the main page
<artnay> then maybe the links should be split some how
<artnay> before X is started / GNOME stuff / Applications / Other stuff
<artnay> we should also have the main guidelines
<artnay> canonical was supposed to give some kind of branding guide
<Tm_T> was, supposed
<Tm_T> oh, I love those words ;)
<artnay> I'll ask what are they planning
<Tm_T> please do, you know where to find me ;) =>>
<artnay> ok, I've got an idea. we should split the wiki, right?
<artnay> Artwork
<artnay> This page does not exist yet. 
<artnay> How about this:
<artnay> Artwork would be the main page and it would contain
<artnay> FAQ, Current projects, Guides, Resources, Members, Links, Kubuntu artwork, Edubuntu artwork and Xubuntu artwork
<artnay> Current Ubuntu artwork projects would contain all topics and maybe the discussion pages should be separated.
<artnay> Clicking the topic would give the overall view what's happening, links, dependencies, members, guides and resources
<artnay> so it would contain lots of cross-linking
<artnay> would that be a mess?
<ogra> no idea, but for edubuntu see http://wiki.edubuntu.org/EdubuntuArtwork
<artnay> oh yeah, Licensing ;)
<artnay> that's an important one
<artnay> it looks a lot more cleaner than ubuntu's
<artnay> last edited 2005-11-13
<ogra> our community is smaller, not so many edits ;)
<artnay> how come there's not enough ppl involved in this?
<ogra> and mhz cares very good for all edubuntu wiki stuff
<artnay> should we make an open letter and ask for help?
<ogra> for edubuntu ? 
<artnay> ubuntu
<ogra> you mean the art team in general ? 
<artnay> why not for edubuntu as well
<artnay> ogra: yeah, at least we should organize as soon as possible
<artnay> I understand that ppl have other things to do but still
<artnay> nothing will happen unless we make it happen
<ogra> do it ... more people are always good ... i'm oly a developer ;)
<ogra> *only
<ogra> i think you need quite some organisation ... i'm monitoring the art team since the beginning, and there didnt happen much yet ...
<artnay> true
<ogra> but somehow there is missing the direction ... that probably needs to be sorted first ...
<artnay> that's why there should be more ppl online, share our views etc.
<ogra> yup
<artnay> I've been waiting for a reply to my mails... it would be much nicer if I just could /msg dude and check if he is available using /wii
<artnay> now it's a mess: http://users.evtek.fi/~jirig/artwork-todo :)
<ogra> i can give you a list with the default screensavers that will be shipped in dapper ...
<ogra> mark once made a selection, i think he will insist that he makes the selection
<artnay> ok.
<ogra> see bugzilla #3044
<artnay> thanks for the info, I updated the list
<artnay> hey guys
<artnay> http://users.evtek.fi/~jirig/artwork-todo - take a look at the wiki section and let us hear you
<mhz> artnay: why that isn't at the wiki?
<artnay> because I haven't got any replies to my mails
<artnay> I need a blessing first
<artnay> then we could start doing things
<mhz> artnay: what do you mean ?
<mhz> no replies?
<mhz> what email? 
<artnay> nada, nothing
<mhz> hehe
<artnay> I've asked AndyFitz and volvoguy to give comments
<mhz> artnay: but the idea of wiki is exactly that.
<mhz> independance
<mhz> freedom of speech
<mhz> and everyone else can comment on the page
<mhz> that url you provide is important, very.
<mhz> and should be of everyone's interest
<artnay> I can't do that by myself
<artnay> I need help for that
<mhz> at least, you could wiki it to YourPage/SomeIdeas
<artnay> might do that later today
<mhz> can I add it for you?
<artnay> then there wouldn't be need to send it to list
<artnay> sure, just do it :)
<mhz> or, email to the list: Please comment about this URL
<artnay> no I wouldn't like to get evtek ubuntulisted ;)
<mhz> what's your wiki homepage?
<mhz> oh, why?
<artnay> there's none at the moment
<mhz> oh :D
<artnay> evtek got lots of traffic from abroad due some things I won't tell gere
<mhz> oops. ok
<artnay> I didn't have anything to do with it, but still
<artnay> it got pretty badly hammered, sort of slashdotted :>
<mhz> :(
<artnay> mhz: shall we create the wiki on this weekend?
<artnay> anybody else?
<mhz> artnay: hmmm, which wiki? the wiki page on wiki.ubuntu...? or your own wiki?
<artnay> mhz: ubuntu wiki
<artnay> I don't want any dupe projects
<artnay> we should co-operate as much as we can, that's the only way to achieve our goals
<mhz> yup!
<mhz> artnay: to have 'edit' privileges in any ubunt wiki, you only gotta create a launchpad account
<mhz> and you'll always login using that lp info
<artnay> I already got one
<mhz> as it is your idea, i thought i could paste your todo proposal below your homepage.
<mhz> but i cant create your homepage :)
<artnay> Sorry, wrong password.
<artnay> but it tells there's a valid account on that name! :)
<artnay> hmm, which was it... I have too many passwords :)
<artnay> it's not my idea, I guess many people agree on that
<mhz> artnay: hehehe, been there!
<artnay> they just don't have time or they're being lazy or something
<mhz> artnay: ask lp to send the pwd to ya
<mhz> artnay: and what I have done to solve the pwd issue is simple. I crate a txt file where i place all my pwds. Then, I encrypt that file and erase the old txt file.
<mhz> next time i need to see a password, i only decrypt the file to read.
<mhz> :D
<artnay> I should do some sort of matrix and make a logic how to store passwords on it
<artnay> then encrypt it
<mhz> obviously... YOU MUST NOT forget the decryption password, artnay  :D
<artnay> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork
<artnay> now it exists although I had no idea how to add the page to Artwork category (wasn't there)
<artnay> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ArtworkTodoProposal
<artnay> who wants to fix the wiki on weekend?
#ubuntu-artwork 2005-12-08
<artnay> updated: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ArtworkTodoProposal. now I need to get some sleep, later mates
<artnay> about the structure of wiki... do you have any ideas? :o
<artnay> we don't want to mess it up and then notice it wasn't that carefully planned
<artnay> nevertheless it would be nice to get it updated on this weekend
<klepas> hey artnay 
<artnay> hi klepas 
<artnay> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ArtworkTodoProposal
<artnay> there's what I've been thinking
<artnay> but I could use some help with planning the structure
<klepas> i'd be happy to help
<klepas> just busy with stuff
<klepas> in the moment
<klepas> how long will you be online for artnay? :)
<artnay> too long as always :)
<klepas> good
<artnay> I already closed my phone so my gf won't be bugging me
<klepas> well for me that is
<klepas> that's nice
<klepas> =)
<artnay> maybe the Members section should be renamed as Contact
<artnay> and then there would be a list of members with e-mail addresses, info on this channel and the mailing list
<klepas> i don't think 'members' would be an applicable choice of wording
<klepas> how about 'contributers'?
<klepas> or something like that
<artnay> changed already
<artnay> to Contact
<artnay> the thing that is bugging me has something to do with the current projects
<artnay> how should they be separated?
<artnay> main page is easy to modify, but projects page should be planned very carefully
<klepas> i'm not even sure myself
<klepas> i'm not an 'official' ubuntu contributor yet
<artnay> me neither
<klepas> :)
<artnay> but I just feel thanking Mark for giving us Ubuntu ;)
<klepas> Hehe. Reasonable enough
<klepas> reason why I started helping out with various things here and there
<klepas> not much yet in Ubuntu though
<artnay> should we have a page for general feedback?
<artnay> or should ppl give their feedback to project's discussion page?
<artnay> what if there is no project? if people just want to give new ideas etc.
<artnay> and they don't want to use the mailing list nor irc
<artnay> or something similiar to "HelpArtworkTeam"
<artnay> maybe that would go under FAQ after all
<artnay> what do you think?
<klepas> yea
<klepas> you've got a point about people not wanting/being lazy about using either the ML or IRC
<artnay> so that would be one topic then
<klepas> definitely
<klepas> but somehow i think in our current state, a lot of people wouldn't make use of the wiki either
<klepas> as is proven already =\
<artnay> true, but we need to gather up first
<artnay> when people see that there's some activity, they might participate
<klepas> yea
<artnay> now they might think the whole development process is sort of secret (unless they realize that nothing is actually happening)
<artnay> I'll take a shower and grab something to eat, brb
<klepas> np
<klepas> enjoy
<artnay> ok, now I feel like F5'd
<artnay> is henrik a part of artwork team? at least he is behind AUC
<artnay> or is he? :o
<artnay> I hate to steal this facility to moan but I contributed 2 backgrounds a couple of weeks back here, still no sign of them and after 2 emails still no feedback if anythings wrong, which is a little frustrating!
<artnay> " "
<artnay> https://addons.mozilla.org/themes/moreinfo.php?id=1567&application=firefox
<artnay> tango theme for fx
<artnay> I'd love to see humility theme for fx
<artnay> that would bring some consistency
<artnay> people are using that as an arguement for changing epiphany
<klepas> artnay: yea
<klepas> i know what you mean
<klepas> Henrik is actually a Canonical guy, iirc
<klepas> Henrik, volvoguy (Aaron, iirc) and I have admin rights to AUC
<klepas> but I've stopped using administering it because it is simply such an annoying process of adding new items
<artnay> ok, I've never tried that art.* concept
<derek[] > Is there a ttf viewer for linux where I could preview them?
#ubuntu-artwork 2005-12-09
<klepas> Anyone awake?
<miketech> more or less :)
<klepas> Cool
<miketech> :)
<derek[] > :)
<klepas>  Might sleep
<klepas> good night you two
<klepas> and any other lurkers
#ubuntu-artwork 2005-12-10
<viller> hi
<viller> everyone's just idleing?
<viller> hi
#ubuntu-artwork 2005-12-11
<mhz> hi
<mhz> anyone here awake and with a printer?
<klepas> hey anyone
<zyga> hey
<klepas> have you guys had a look at artnay's recent ideas about updating the outdated wiki entries?
<zyga> I'm not a part of the artwork team
<klepas> Ah, alrighty
<klepas> Neither am I 'officially' =] 
<klepas> zyga: interested in joining the art team? we could do with some extra hands here and there :)
<zyga> klepas: yes, I've got an idea for a good project
<zyga> but I need to contact the photo team: hub, magnon, koke
<klepas> cool
<klepas> not going to share your idea without them? ;)
<miketech> yeah we wanna hear it :)
<klepas> holy crap
<klepas> AndyFitz is awesome... :D
<miketech> ?
<AndyFitz> that was random
<klepas> Andy showed me something
<klepas> hey andy
<klepas> show him too
<AndyFitz> g'day
<klepas> :)
<klepas> art team ought to have a right to know...
<AndyFitz> http://www.brisgeek.com/files/wallpapers/wallpaper_ubuntu_dapper.svg
<AndyFitz> http://www.brisgeek.com/files/wallpapers/wallpaper_ubuntu_dapper.png
<AndyFitz> klepas is referring to this
<AndyFitz> submitted to art.ubuntu.com earlier
<miketech> lol
<miketech> cool
<miketech> did u use inkscape for this?
<klepas> he did
<miketech> this is really awesome
<zyga> re
<zyga> yeah the idea is to ask ubuntu affiliated people from around the world to make a few photos of the world around them
<klepas> zyga: nice idea
<zyga> then go thru the photos and select the high quality and interesting ones
<zyga> built a few themes for various regions
<zyga> and maybe some composites from multiple photos
<zyga> each photo could have a small globe in the corner with a dot pinpointing the location
<klepas> zyga: make the globe of etiquette design :)
<klepas> as in the icon theme
<zyga> I didn't thought of the details yet, I need to contact someone to make this go and set up a dump space for the photos
<zyga> I wanted to make a black-and-white theme that could contrast nice with a translucent globe and nice yellow dot 
<zyga> AndyFitz: nice
<zyga> AndyFitz: I don't particularly like the blurrines of the bigger drake but it's still nice
<klepas> zyga: sounds something that'll get the go
<zyga> klepas: ?
<klepas> zyga: the photo idea - it sounds like something that'll get a lot of support :)
<zyga> :-)
<klepas> http://lobby4linux.com/WordPress/?p=63
<AndyFitz> zyga, updated
<AndyFitz> klepas. all ready for AUO
<zyga> AndyFitz: nice :>
<AndyFitz> got it from 632kb to 389kb using pngcrush
<AndyFitz> thats so rad
<zyga> AndyFitz: pngcrush?
<AndyFitz> pngcrush.sf.net 
<AndyFitz> its a commandline tool that can do awesome things to png files like brute force compression trying every combination of  compression without losing a pixel
<AndyFitz> for a 1920x1200 raster file 389kb is amazing
<AndyFitz> well nice considering the amount of gradients 
<zyga> sf net is dead?
<klepas> zyga: sudo apt-get install pngcrush
<klepas> :)
<zyga> :-)
<zyga> anyway
<klepas> To use
<zyga> who could I contact to set things in motion?
<klepas> pngcrush -reduce inputfile.png outputfile.png
<zyga> I'd need a dump space for the photos
<klepas> Henrik
<klepas> from Canonical
<zyga> I can set up a good webpage with infos myself
<klepas> he set up AUC
<zyga> is he around on irc?
<klepas> but setting up your own stuff would be pretty good
<klepas> Not sure, but I can give you his email
<klepas> here:
<klepas> Henrik Nilsen Omma <henrik@ubuntu.com>
<klepas> make sure to tell us how it goes
<klepas> :)
<zyga> k, thanks :-)
<klepas> No worries
<derek[] > hi
<klepas> hello derek[]  
<derek[] > Wie gehts?
<klepas> Ach, gut. Und Ihnen?
<derek[] > Gut, danke!
<artnay> hey mates
<artnay> AndyFitz: nice BG, so warm feeling in it :)
<AndyFitz> cheers artnay
<artnay> if I recall right, volvoguy is in a surgery at the moment? (or recovering)
<artnay> right?
<AndyFitz> if someone has the time to touch up the duck please do.  I'm really in it for pushing that gradient background as the format for ubuntu-calendar stuff
<artnay> it's the day of independence today (a day off in other words)
<AndyFitz> yeah I think aaron is.
<derek[] > hey
<derek[] > which BG?
<klepas> derek[] : 
<klepas> 20:52 < AndyFitz> http://www.brisgeek.com/files/wallpapers/wallpaper_ubuntu_dapper.svg
<klepas> 20:52 < AndyFitz> http://www.brisgeek.com/files/wallpapers/wallpaper_ubuntu_dapper.png
<klepas> :)
<derek[] > ok
<derek[] > nice art work
<derek[] > :)
<derek[] > but why the duck?
<derek[] > *drake
<derek[] > is it the new mascot?
<derek[] > :)
<klepas> Dapper Drake
<zyga> http://ubuntu.suxx.pl/ubuntu-photo-project/
<zyga> I obviously welcome comments 
<mhz> re
<zyga> mhz: http://ubuntu.suxx.pl/ubuntu-photo-project/
* mhz opening tab
* mhz loves tabs fro browsing
<mhz> zyga: I like it but wonder why such proposal is not a wiki page instead?
<zyga> ah I don't really like editing wiki pages
<zyga> once I get the initiall feedback I'll paste that to the wiki and make a spec
<zyga> s/initiall/initial/
<mhz> zyga: why?
<zyga> each wiki has slightly different syntax
<mhz> this way we can all discuss it and newcomers can read it too
<zyga> yes I know :/
<mhz> zyga: yes, but Plain text is universal :) 
<mhz> you can use that for every wiki
<zyga> right now this is my personal sandbox for this project, I still want to add gui mockups and the background template 
<mhz> and I can take care of making it look more col
<mhz> cool
<zyga> I'll concider that :)
<mhz> hehe
<mhz> good
<mhz> team work
<zyga> I'll move this to the wiki eventually
<mhz> you have ideas, we complement them
<zyga> I've already added a section about multihead support
<mhz> good
* klepas washes sleep from his eyes
#ubuntu-artwork 2006-12-04
<PseudoPlacebo> Haha.
<lapo> hi
<pingunz> hey lapo
<klerfayt> why doesn't kubuntu have it's own icon set like ubuntu?
<troy_s> full house
<nysosym> hi all :)
<klerfayt> why isn't #ubuntu-artwork listed in https://help.ubuntu.com/community/InternetRelayChat?
<Riddell> klerfayt: feel free to add it
<Riddell> klerfayt: #kubuntu-devel is perfectly fine for kubuntu artwork discussion too (of course you'll get technical people commenting on it rather than artwork people)
<bersace> hi all
<nysosym> hi bersace
#ubuntu-artwork 2006-12-05
<kwwii> night all
<troy_s> greets cooldaddydoof
<cooldaddydoof> troy_s, hey guy
<lapo> hi
* Starting logfile irclogs/ubuntu-artwork.log
* Starting logfile irclogs/ubuntu-artwork.log
<coz_> evening
#ubuntu-artwork 2006-12-06
<coz_> vening all
<coz_> evening all
<coz_> you have to get used to my inability to type well
<coz_> lol
<coz_> atclually my spleling can be vrey vrey bad a tmies but gnereally it can be raed esaily
<coz_> have to go
<sittisal> re
<coz_> early morning
<BHSPitLappy> yo
* Starting logfile irclogs/ubuntu-artwork.log
<lapo> hi
<Viper550> I see the road to Feisty has begun...
<kwwii> now if we only knew what is going on with kubuntu :p
<Viper550> yeah...now that you lost your great position :P
<kwwii> actually it is not certain what will happen yet
<andreasn> kwwii: hm?
<Viper550> Anyone saw my idea on the mailing list about having some temporary "joke" artwork until something real is produced?
<kwwii> the last decision on who is going to work on the kubuntu stuff is still not clear yet
<kwwii> Viper550: yepp, I saw that
<kwwii> developer pics are really good for that stuff
<kwwii> gives them the feeling that they are important :p
<andreasn> kwwii: your contract expired?
<kwwii> andreasn: yepp
<kwwii> that was my second contract, actually
<andreasn> kwwii: sorry to hear
<kwwii> andreasn: yeah, me too
<kwwii> we'll see what happens...I am also talking to suse again :p
<kwwii> not sure if I would actually go back there or not, since it is novell though
<kwwii> anyway...time for a movie
#ubuntu-artwork 2006-12-07
<coz_> evening to all
<lapo> hi
<jenda> hello lapo ;)
<lapo> yo jenda
<jenda> 
<NosstaZenith> can you guys help me with a problem with modding the kubuntu login screen
<NosstaZenith> I have tried using KDM to change it, but no joy it seams to overlay a default theme
#ubuntu-artwork 2006-12-10
<coz_> hello all. I have posted 12 (one dozen) Beryl snowflakes on the forums. All are 100x100 pixels/transparent backgrounds/and named "snowflake2.png..all ready to go   http://ubuntuforums.org/gallery/showgallery.php?cat=5
<jhasse> Hello everyone! I have a suggestions for the ubuntu default human theme: It would be cool if the active window in the window selector could have a darker color, with more contrast to the normal windows.
<jhasse> Or maybe just a higher shadow at the borders so it looks deeper pressed down
<jhasse> I have a lcd/tft where you can't even see the difference sometimes.
<Teddy> Hello?
#ubuntu-artwork 2007-12-03
<nysosym> good morning
<nysosym> I have seen the meeting log, a lot to to right?
<nysosym> If it possible i'll made some icon mockups for future releases
<nysosym> In my opinion, we should made a realistic ultra detailed look. Sure, you can it's maybe a "waste" of time, but i think it's incredible useful for the experience of the "main" user. I know so many people, where love to see the detail in the icons of OSX 10.5. Well the Folder icons are a kick in my balls, but the rest is truly amazing.
<nysosym> http://img106.imageshack.us/my.php?image=historiassmessyjy8.png
<nysosym> amazing style!
<nysosym> These color palette could maybe match with the new ubuntu style
<kwwii> hi nysosym
<nysosym> hi kwwii  :)
<nysosym> how are you?
<kwwii> good, busy
<kwwii> and you?
<nysosym> ohh fine, 4 weeks holiday now, after 8 weeks of night work :-/
<nysosym> some time for artwork now :)
<kwwii> cool
<nysosym> what can i do to support ubuntu? :)
<kwwii> as always, there is a lot to do :-9
<kwwii> as far as Hardy artwork goes, we are still collecting ideas
<kwwii> but within a couple of days the official art direction will be announced
<nysosym> well i have seen the log of the meeting
<nysosym> Hardy will be the last  release with the "old" style?
<kwwii> I am guessing so, but it is not fact yet
<kwwii> I might be wrong
<nysosym> sure the last word comes from mark
<kwwii> and others
<nysosym> is it planed to have a todo list for the artwork team, something like "New color palette, new icon design". To see what we have and what we need
<kwwii> well, we are planning on replacing everything
<kwwii> so the list is:
<kwwii>  * everything
<elkbuntu> ha
<nysosym> hehe ok :D
<nysosym> in these way the next (+1) ubuntu release could have completely different colors?
<kwwii> no, no...we are going to define all that
<kwwii> but we are looking at changing things a good bit
<kwwii> but we will not be blue or green anytime soon
<nysosym> ahh ok fine :)
<nysosym> kwwii: have you seen this, what do you think about?
<nysosym> http://img106.imageshack.us/my.php?image=historiassmessyjy8.png
<kwwii> nysosym: erm, seems like a bit of overkill to me
<kwwii> well done and all, but not something I would use on my desktop
<nysosym> sure it's messy, but i love the details
<nysosym> but really difficult to do with vektor art
<nysosym> *vector
<kwwii> no doubt
<darkmatter> nysosym: lol. looks like a trashy version of a 'retro' theme I've been sketching on paper
<nysosym> hehe trashy or not is a matter of taste :D
<darkmatter> well. time to get back to working on narcissus
<nysosym> narcissus?
<darkmatter> theme I'm working on. will end up as an engine, just trying to get a pixmap-hybrid prototype done to show to the suse guys :)
<nysosym> sounds good :)
<darkmatter> nysosym: basically, I've been considering for some time what a modern gnome should/could look like. needs to be professional, elegant, stylish (clearlooks is more suited to the 'classic' look, ala windows) and I kinda had the funny thought that if gnome ever saw itself in a mirror, it should fall head over heels in love
<darkmatter> thus the name narcissus
<darkmatter> ;)
<nysosym> yes i like these name :D
<darkmatter> designing it to look good with tango (since tango styling is the default for gnome, suse, and others). nicely unified, inspired  (to a very small degree) by the old NLD 10 mockups and by the unification experiment I had called glory.
<nysosym> :) is there any wip picture?
<nysosym> a picture says more than 1000 words ;)
<darkmatter> not yet, but there are pictures of the old novell mockups and of glory kicking about the net ;) (just started some basic work on narcissus)
<darkmatter> nysosym: heres the old novell mockups http://www.flickr.com/photos/gamehack/sets/1506658/ and here's glory
<darkmatter> http://www.flickr.com/photos/92826085@N00/sets/72157594488098254/ and http://www.gnome-look.org/content/show.php/Glory-Simplex?content=60326
<darkmatter> and http://www.gnome-look.org/content/show.php/Oxygenated?content=60734
<darkmatter> nysosym: the basis of the inspiration (minus the oxygen icons :P)
<nysosym> yeah i know these gnome mockups, hope to see some of the ideas in gnome 3.0. Anyway keep up the good work :)
<kwwii> good to see that kde artwork is helping gnome :-)
<nysosym> yeah, oxygen is amazing! Something like that for ubuntu +1 :)
<nysosym> but with a different color palette :D
<darkmatter> kwwii: I was thinking (I'll have to see how it will look though) of unifying the titlebars and the gtk, and having a slightly concave, contrasting menubar with slightly rounded corners. h
<nysosym> oxygen is the perfect way between details and simplicity :)
<kwwii> we still hve a long way to go on the oxygen style and windeco, I think
<kwwii> but there is only so long you can radically change things before release
<nysosym> Ohh well sry, i had oxygen associated with the icons
<darkmatter> and btw, I wan't influenced by oxygen. I just repackaged the icons after someone said they though it would look good ;)
<darkmatter> and funnily enough it did :O
<darkmatter> and I believe I found a solution to gtks funky-arsed progessbars
<darkmatter> kwwii: yeah, oxygen isnt anywhere near as polished looking as the mockups yet. but thats what you get transitioning gfx t code
<kwwii> no doubt
 * kwwii takes a short break
<darkmatter> hmmm.. if I do monochromatic glyphs for the toolbar icons...
<nysosym> hi andreasn
<andreasn> hi nysosym, what's up?
<nysosym> i had created some fast folder concepts :D
<nysosym> http://img227.imageshack.us/my.php?image=folderconceptsbb7.png
<nysosym> i hope you get the idea ^^
<lapo> hi
<andreasn> the second on the right would probably work we
<andreasn> hi lapo
<andreasn> well
<lapo> 'morning andreasn
<nysosym> andreasn: yes this is also the one that i like the most :D
<andreasn> or, well, it would probably be closest to what people expect
<nysosym> about the "new" color palette, would it be better with brighter colors like the current one, or do we preffer pastel/darker ones?
<andreasn> nysosym: sorry for the delay, had to pick up the cat at the vet
<andreasn> nysosym: well, kwwii and Mark is going to lock themselves up in a room until they have reached a decision
<nysosym> ahh ok fine :D
<andreasn> but I think it was going to be in a couple of days
<Toma-> http://members.iinet.net.au/~haste/Genpo48.png
<Toma-> Would that pass a Tango test?
<andreasn> Toma-: oh, cool. You should probably make the stroke a bit lighter, make a inner stroke and make the shadow less heavy
<Toma-> cool thanks :)
<Toma-> there an easy way to make an inner stroke in inkscape?
<andreasn> lapo: you know a trick for this, right?
<andreasn> I mostly copy the object and shrink it down a bit
<Toma-> yeh but i have 5 of em :/
<nysosym> hmmm how well does illustrator svgs works with gnome?
<andreasn> they work, but there are some rendering differences between Illustrator and librsvg
<andreasn> Inkscape and librsvg render pretty much the same though
<nysosym> hmm damn, my current work machine is a mac and i couldn't check the compatibility
<Toma-> you can run illustrator in wine i think
<andreasn> have you managed to get inkscape to run on it? could test to open the illustrator svg in that
<lapo> andreasn: projection or linked projection work nicelly for inner stroke
<lapo> nysosym: you'll have to tweak the svg, it add a lot of cruft to it usually
<nysosym> hmm ok :)
<lapo> nysosym: anyway I work with inkscape only for ages so I don't know how are things now
<troy_s> <Toma-> there an easy way to make an inner stroke in inkscape?
<troy_s> Linked offset
<Toma-> oh?
<troy_s> I have a chrome tutorial on the blog that uses it.
<troy_s> Works rather well and is dynamically attached to the source object.
<troy_s> you end up with two objects and the 'bigger' one is your stroke.
<troy_s> if i am reading you correctly.
<Toma-> did you see the icon?
<troy_s> Toma-: no
<Toma-> basically need a thin trace inside the stroke
<troy_s> try linked offset
<Toma-> ok thanks
<Toma-> actually, i read about that on your blog :)
<troy_s> it is a rather elegant way to do strokes that are more dynamic and give you more control.
<troy_s> the main issue at hand is that anything that gets complicated gets nasty when you want to make changes.
<Toma-> http://members.iinet.net.au/~haste/Genpo48.png
<Toma-> trying to tango-ify that
<andreasn> you can also probably try to make the pipes slightly more rounder
<troy_s> Toma-: Dynamic offset does the same but doesn't link to the object.
<troy_s> Toma-: Linked keeps the object attached...
<troy_s> Toma-: Although if you are planning direct SVG rendering, some of the SVG features aren't fully supported in libsvg -- as it appears l.apo already suggested.
<kwwii> illustrator has a perfect offset function, it works sooo well
<Toma-> so i cant even render it right? :S
<troy_s> Toma-: Nope, it works pretty amazingly.
<Toma-> oh cool then
<troy_s> Toma-: I am just warning that not everything is equal in librsvg.
<Toma-> ok :)
<troy_s> Toma-: There are some features that are bogged in librsvg -- for example, draw an object and have it extend past the page dimensions.  Blur it.  The object in librsvg will blur the entire object clipped to the page where the original should only blur the edges up to the page.
<troy_s> Toma-: Also page colour etc. doesn't have any effect in librsvg.
<troy_s> Toma-: There are more, but those are pretty good examples of 'odd' behaviour.  I am pretty sure that librsvg is harsher with gradients on smaller sizes too.
<Toma-> yeh ive notices a couple little sneeky render bugs
<lapo> Toma-: nice icon, try shading the tubes with a 3 point gradient, dark-light-darker
<Toma-> ahh yeh. thanks
<Toma-> Ummm anyway to recover that youre working on if gimp crashes?
<andreasn> save more often :/
<Toma-> ...plz dont say i just lost 2 hrs worth of animation :(
<darkmatter> weee... this is taking forever... -.-
<andreasn> :(
<Toma-> Biggest let down ever.
<Toma-> why the hell doesnt gimp have crash recovery!?@?!#
<Toma-> inkscape does, ardour does
<Toma-> grrrrrrrrrrrrr
<_MMA_> baby
<darkmatter> yes sweety?
<darkmatter> meh. why does cairo have to take so much work....
<TheSheep> pink and teal???
<TheSheep> I was hoping for pink and orange :(
<darkmatter> VIOLET AND LIME
<darkmatter> sheesh. pink is just so... metro
<TheSheep> purple
<TheSheep> with tiny little brown elephants
<nysosym> ohh well the contrast of brown and pink is very nice :)
<TheSheep> nysosym: do you want fries with that?
<nysosym> hm?
<TheSheep> nah, ignore me
<DShepherd> pink and teal? what??
<DShepherd> kwwii, pink and teal? what??
<cleaton> i dun get it either
<DShepherd> maybe its some joke or something
<_MMA_> Pink n' Teal FTW!
<Cimi> kwwii, do you know which is the command to redirect irc users from a file to another chan?
<Cimi> as /j #ubuntu-art -> artworkl
<Cimi> *from a chan to another
<_MMA_> andreasn: Who did the splashscreen in GIMP 2.4.2?
<kwwii> sorry don't know that one
<kwwii> erm, too late as well
<luisbg> you might find it in the credits page
<luisbg> hey kwwii
<luisbg> two replies to go for the art people list
<kwwii> howdy luisbg
<luisbg> doing good... working a little
<kwwii> cool
<kwwii> just make sure that wierd ubuntu-studio guy takes care of all of the work
<kwwii> luisbg: cool, I am making my son dinner, be back a bit later and we can talk about it
<luisbg> sure
 * luisbg looks at _MMA_ 
<andreasn> _MMA_: hm, I can't recall the name by heart, but jimmac might know
<andreasn> _MMA_: Paul Davey
<andreasn> http://gimp.org/about/splash/stable.html
<_MMA_> andreasn: Ahh... Looks like mattahan.
<andreasn> http://mattahan.deviantart.com/ - same dude apparently
<_MMA_> Oh hell. Yeah. :D
<_MMA_> I hope he used GIMP to do it.
<nothlit> btw, recession is always nice https://people.fluxbuntu.org/~nothlit/fluxbuntu/artwork/mock_usplash.png
<lapo_> hi
 * _MMA_ waves.
<DShepherd> ok
<DShepherd> can someone tell me whats up with the pink and teal topic?
<_MMA_> Its the new theme colors.
<_MMA_> w00t!
<DShepherd> _MMA_, for?
<DShepherd> hardy?
<_MMA_> Yep.
<DShepherd> interesting
<_MMA_> pink and teal=hottness.
<DShepherd> heheh
<DShepherd> i guess it does
<_MMA_> Come on man. Its a joke. ;)
<DShepherd> great!
<DShepherd> good joke!
<DShepherd> :-)
<DShepherd> now..
<DShepherd> now i can spread the love
<DShepherd> love = joke
<DShepherd> kwwii, you prankster you
#ubuntu-artwork 2007-12-04
<troy_s> <andreasn> _MMA_: Paul Davey
<troy_s> really?
<_MMA_> troy_s: Yep. He's in the credits.
<troy_s> _MMA_: how cool.  same guy who does buuf.
<_MMA_> Yep.
<_MMA_> And Gant and a TON of other stuff.
<troy_s> _MMA_, kwwii, and anyone else who is around and who cares -- Niel -- the fellow who did those most interesting GTK mocks and author of AWN has apparently fallen ill...
<troy_s> http://njpatel.blogspot.com/2007/11/wires-sticking-out.html
<troy_s> Drop him a little get well note if you are of that inkling.
<Toma-> Do dots really work for displaying minimise and maximise?
<troy_s> Toma-: I suppose for an audience that uses them.
<Toma-> i think theyre pretty stylish
<troy_s> Toma-: I find up or down seem more logical -- but blow's tends to like the current trend in low line / box
<Toma-> see i was thinking about up and down arrows, but these days, panels are on either side
<troy_s> Toma-: I think it was kwwii 's mock (or someone's) that had a diagonal up and a diagonal down arrow -- top right up angled for max, and lower left down for min... looks original and quite decent.
<Toma-> same with the little line
<troy_s> well -- that tends to give more credence to apples plus / minus.
<Toma-> let me take a screenshot...
<Toma-> http://members.iinet.net.au/~haste/e17/funkybuttons.png
<Toma-> they need some reordering, but yeh.
<troy_s> Toma-: Sure.  People tend to get a little obsessive believing that certain 'metaphors' work 'better' than others, but I have always been of the mind that if you apply something consistently and it is discoverable, people adapt.
<Toma-> certainly
<troy_s> Toma-: although I am quite sure TheSheep could probably pull up some reference from his usability-rainman head.
<Toma-> lol
<Toma-> i dont know how you could possibly bash those dots
<Toma-> big dot = go big. small dot = go small.
<troy_s> Toma-: In the end, it seems that people -- regardless of previous experience -- can migrate between say -- OSX (top left buttons with completely different colours and glyphs) and Vista (top right) with utter ease.
<troy_s> Toma-: and that would probably be both directions.  Realistically, the glyphs that Ubuntu and Blows use by default are ... well ... what the hell do they mean exactly?  Does it matter?
<Toma-> yeh
<troy_s> Toma-: how is the stability of e these days?
<Toma-> surprisingly good. few seg faults, but it restarts straight away
<troy_s> Toma-: it appears as though they finally upped their icon size from the '3733t'stupidity size.
<Toma-> nothing gets lost
<Toma-> what icon size?
<troy_s> Toma-: A while ago the icons in the file manager were hideously small... somewhere in the same absolute stupidity size of GNOME / KDE panel idiot size.
<Toma-> ahh
<Toma-> yeh
<Toma-> alot of work going on in efm right now. it even has a toolbar than you can load modules into :) a little pointless but still, quite awesome
<troy_s> Toma-: I find that with AWN GNOME does the trick well.
<troy_s> Toma-: and if you kill off those ass-nasty gnome panels.
<Toma-> is awn still dominated with gloss themes?
<_MMA_> AWN sux.
<troy_s> Toma-: it isn't bad... you can customize the hell out of it.
<troy_s> _MMA_: What makes you say that?
<troy_s> _MMA_: The options are the rather hideous GNOME panel or the 'at-least-out-of-the-dark-ages' awn.
<Toma-> i bitterly hate the gnome-panel
<troy_s> ditto
<Toma-> ...i think theres... a blowfly stuck in my pc case....
<_MMA_> I dont care about others opinions. It just sux.
<troy_s> _MMA_: Well having a reason helps to have understanding.
<troy_s> _MMA_: And we are all well aware that you don't care about other's opinions, it goes without saying.
<_MMA_> I dont care about that either. I just want to throw my baseless opinion out there like everyone else.
<troy_s> _MMA_: In light of the default GNOME panel, saying AWN sucks puts you in the complete buffoon category.
<troy_s> lol
 * _MMA_ goes to start a blog.
<Toma-> hahahahah
<Toma-> i hate blogs generally. i might write about my distaste on my personal website
<troy_s> lol
<troy_s> blogs work ok... i originally didn't really like them, but more and more i find myself mining content from them.
<_MMA_> grumble... people suck... grumble... gnome sux, kde sux, micro$haft sux, AWN sux, Troy sux, Ken sux, grumble... I'm so cool.
 * _MMA_ waits for it to post to Planet.
<Toma-> you should check out the minimise/maximise buttons on the chrome theme for e17
<Toma-> they all look identical till you mouse over, and the image shrinks for minimise, zooms for maximise, and lowers its opacity for close
<Toma-> quite clever really
<Toma-> and the wallpaper is animated version of pong :)
<troy_s> _MMA_: LOL
<troy_s> _MMA_: Although I don't really disagree with much of what you typed.  Aside from the AWN sux part.
<troy_s> lol
 * _MMA_ just wanted to type highly juvenile "micro$haft". ;)
<troy_s> http://www.newsweek.com/id/73349
<troy_s> _MMA_: Interesting article... you might dig it.
<_MMA_> Yeah. Does look cool.
<troy_s> _MMA_: It has an interesting quote or two on mimesis.
<troy_s> _MMA_: Which many folks still seem stuck in.
<lapo> hi
<darkmatter> hello
 * kwwii is off to the airport...
<andreasn> to london?
 * darkmatter is busy hacking away at narcissus
<darkmatter> lets see how quicly I can translate all these pretty sketches into gtk :)
<darkmatter> andreasn: what would you think of a truly modern gtk engine for gnome? one that actually makes sense in gnome, unlike the myriad of "ooo shiny!" themes that the n00bs make
<andreasn> I always like stuff that makes sense
<andreasn> what did you have in mind?
<andreasn> or do you mean a engine or a theme?
<darkmatter> andreasn: narcissus is to clearlooks what highres is to tango.
<andreasn> narcissus? url?
<darkmatter> andreasn: engine. initial prototype just a theme
<andreasn> we totally need to have a good dark theme in gnome-themes, I should trick someone into putting some work into that
<darkmatter> basically smooth, elegant, more realistic widget drawing. lots of subtle gradient work (including the panel) more modern progress bar look, subtle transitional animations and lighting effects. have it on paper. just starting a transition to a 'live' mockup
<darkmatter> andreasn: no url yet. but soon
<darkmatter> andreasn: basically I refined my design pattern that I had been experimenting with on glory. added a bit of an 'artsy' flare to it. It's very elegant, refined and professional (on paper). now the fun of trying to replicate the design in gtk comes :)
<darkmatter> andreasn: if you want a decent example of the level of refinement I'm talking about, take a look at jimmacs highres industrial folders as compared the the standard ones, and imagine a similar level of evolution in a 'gnomish' gtk :)
<darkmatter> andreasn: http://www.flickr.com/photo_zoom.gne?id=2075422487&size=o <-- imagine an engine that will look smokin' hot with those ;P
<darkmatter> mornin klepas
<lapo> darkmatter: something like this? http://gitweb.freedesktop.org/?p=users/jimmac/git-highres.git;a=blob;h=490ab62780feebce38857cbf607c0e9d430a7f23;hb=d75bc924122d78f28aa846f3445be7ea987d87d7;f=256x256/places/folder.svg
<darkmatter> lapo. indeed. but that aesthetic translated to gtk :)
<darkmatter> lapo, thanks for linking that, should serve as a nice visual reference to make sure everything fits
<_MMA_> Baaaahhh!!!! http://www.flickr.com/photos/markop/499279340 Creepy.
<Viper550> Okay, so my Dad already tainted his Ubuntu with non-open source software :P
<nothlit> what'd he put on it
<Viper550> Flash Player 9
<_MMA1> lol. "tainted".
#ubuntu-artwork 2007-12-05
<kwwii> good morning from London
<darkmatter> blimey! :O
<lapo> hi
<darkmatter> morn
<zniavre> hello / bonjour
<luisbg> hello all
#ubuntu-artwork 2007-12-06
<nothlit> !seen lassegul
<ubotu> Sorry, I don't know anything about seen lassegul - try searching on http://ubotu.ubuntu-nl.org/factoids.cgi
<nothlit> LOL who did this? https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Incoming/Hardy/Alternate/hardy_idea its great
<darkmatter> nothlit panel/panel button rough in. http://www.flickr.com/photo_zoom.gne?id=2090319021&size=o
<darkmatter> opinions?
<darkmatter> other than the fact that the grasient of the panel is a bit flat. I'll fix that later
<darkmatter> *gradient
<lapo> hi
<terlmann> pink and teal ? bah, I go on vacation and things CHANGE....
<terlmann> Well I am still on vacation, in Dialup country, so I won't be back (really back) for some time.
#ubuntu-artwork 2007-12-07
<Toma-> Not my work, but this is a nice dark brown/orange theme... http://thedarkmaster.wordpress.com/2007/08/14/say-hallo-to-the-art-of-cappuccino-10-complete-theme-for-linux/
<mrAshley> hello?
<mrAshley> is the the UI design team chat room for ubuntu?
 * mrAshley drops a pin.
<troy_s> mrAshley: No.
<mrAshley> troy_s: hints?
<troy_s> mrAshley: No idea -- I don't believe there is a user interface chat room or team etc.
<mrAshley> cool beans, thanks! ;)
<darkmatter> hrmmmm http://www.flickr.com/photo_zoom.gne?id=2092993576&size=o
<lapo> hi
#ubuntu-artwork 2007-12-08
<Misosaki> The palette hasn't actually been changed to pink and teal?
<somerville32> Misosaki, of course it has
<Misosaki> Seriously?
<somerville32> I'm dead serious. We're going to try and target the stay at home moms this release.
<Misosaki> Ah. Thanks.
<somerville32> :P
 * somerville32 is joking and really had to no idea.
<Misosaki> >_>"
<Misosaki> So when will the "official" direction be finalised?
 * somerville32 is a developer, not an artist :P
<Misosaki> (i.e. info for artwork direction)
<Misosaki> Lucky.
<Misosaki> Thanks anyway. Have fun, everyone.
<DanaG> Pink and teal?  I hope that's a joke...
<DanaG> I don't have a grudge against pink, but it certainly doesn't go with teal, I think.
<DanaG> (ooh, rhyme!  Heh.)
<troy_s> DanaG: Well, it is a joke.  That said, pink and teal would probably work quite alright as a design base for something.  I don't know about a desktop, but ... ;)
<troy_s> kwwii: How did the meet go.
<DanaG> wtf? num lock not working....  (not an issue relevant to this channel.)
<DanaG> Oh yeah, right now I'm using a theme called "Jellyfish-Aurora", which uses the windeco of the "Nodoka" theme and the Aurora engine, with less omg-I-need-sunglasses bright blue.
<DanaG> But I find myself missing orange -- orange and brown are what make Ubuntu recognizable to many people.
<DanaG> It feels somewhat like some sort of 'betrayal' to use blue on Ubuntu, to me.  I don't know why.
<darkmatter> http://www.flickr.com/photos/92826085@N00/sets/72157603406043713/ <-- XD
<lukeen> darkmatter: whats funny about it?
<darkmatter> never said it was funny. the 'XD' was an approximation of my shite-eating grin :)
<darkmatter> starting work on a gtk engine. using a mod of the gilouche theme to test with ftm (as I haven't fully decided on the defaults yet). but am having fun with smooth, clean cairo and some textual 'pop' to give a touch of 'eyecandy' without having to actually gloss anything)
<lukeen> ah its from you?
<darkmatter> lukeen: its still very early pre alpha (only the gtk buttons have been cairo'd up, and just roughly) but it goes to show you don't need "bling" to bling ;)
<darkmatter> lukeen: yup.
<lukeen> i've used something very similar to yours .. but i cannot find it at the moment .. *searching*
<darkmatter> lukeen: I modded gilouche's gtkrc to use the narcissus engine I'm working on, which is why it would look familiar (the color and the 'computer' buttons are straight from opensuse), but if you look at the button drawing in evolution (even though its just rough, as well as the fillin pixmapped panel.. which is only staying till i get that far into the engine code.. you can see the general feel I'm after as far as the widgets go.)
<darkmatter> the engine itself will be clean and elegant. I was thinkin of doing a soft grey for the default theme
<lukeen> darkmatter: you mean gilouche theme for clearlooks? i can remember a pixmap based theme, it had a very unique look
<darkmatter> lukeen: ahh... not a clue about the pixmap, but thats gilouche for clearlooks converted to the narcissus engine I started working on last night :)
<lukeen> ah well i think i've found it, well its not what i had in mind but also soft like yours: http://www.gnome-look.org/content/show.php/Glory-Simplex?content=60326
<lukeen> but engines are always better: everyone can easily change it to the color he/she likes and they are much faster... pixmap's evil ;)
<lukeen> a lol? was this theme by you?
<darkmatter> lukeen: hehe.. yes.. I thought you meant a theme by someone *else* ;P
<darkmatter> but indeed, thats mine
<lukeen> lol
<darkmatter> lukeen: and thats why I'm making an engine. basically taking the design pattern I came up with in glory (which was never a finished theme btw), and evolving/polishing it up
<darkmatter> them people can ruin mt hard work by making pink versions! ;O
<darkmatter> *then
<darkmatter> *my
<lukeen> very cool. looking forward to a release of your engine!
<darkmatter> so am I :)
<_MMA_> Anyone know the link to the DIY Ubuntu art? The stuff you can print yourself for disk labels and such?
<TheSheep> _MMA_: search for DIY on the wiki
<_MMA_> k
<cursor> Hey!
<cursor> i'm pretty new to the whole development side of the community but definatley want to contribute something back , soo can anyone give me some sort of direction to go in just so i know where to sign up and soo on
<cursor> any help much apreciated
<_MMA_> Development for?
<cursor> anything to do with the art work side of things
<_MMA_> Well alot is on hold ATM. Ill get you some links.
<cursor> thanks
<_MMA_> Also as its the weekend it will be pretty quiet around here.
<cursor> ah i understand
<cursor> i had a look around the wiki but its sorta confusing wasnt sure where to begin
<_MMA_> Where the is the place to start.
<_MMA_> Anything specific you want to help with?
<_MMA_> @google ubuntu art
<_MMA_> gah
<cursor> haha well nothing specific really, just anything to do with the graphics side
<_MMA_> A Google search brings up relevant links also. http://www.google.com/search?q=ubuntu+art&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=com.ubuntu:en-US:official&client=firefox-a
<_MMA_> cursor: Thats very broad. Do you have a portfolio?
<cursor> not as off yet , various bits of work doted around. Not really got around to it
<cursor> not had need for one as im still a student , studying design (product mainly) and computer science
<_MMA_> Never time like the present. :) I would sign up for the art mailing list and watch. Submitting ideas/mockups for specific aspects can also be a start.
<cursor> haha very true , okay will do
<cursor> i wouldnt mind helping somehow with the icons , i did see somewhere a list for an icon pack being developed with various icons that still need to be created
<cursor> i really need to start developing a portfolio
<cursor> i have some work for my design course online somewhere i'll have a look for it
<cursor> http://peterhollis-design.carbonmade.com/
<cursor> not alot i know n not amazing but thats all i have uploaded
<_MMA_> Did you do the manufacturing on the chrome/glass pieces?
<_MMA_> (or plastic. Im not sure)
<cursor> noo there all computer generated images
<_MMA_> Ahh... Killer.
<_MMA_> In?
<cursor> i am eventually going to have to produce the final design
<cursor> oh various software one or 2 in maya , few in some crappy cad package
<cursor> mainly rendered in maya
<cursor> and the manufactoring side for the final design i'll do all the metal work myself then sending off for chroming
<_MMA_> Nice.
<_MMA_> /me used to do alot of steel/aluminum work.
<cursor> nice
<cursor> im pretty new to it
<cursor> i'm pretty shakey doing much work at the moment caused myself a nice injury lol
<_MMA_> Welding is alot of fun. tig/mig welding. You can do some beautiful things if you know how to use a tig welder.
<cursor> nice, im not really to confident with production side , i mean give me some time n i can get what i want complete but much rather work on design side
<_MMA_> Trust me. If you learn the manufacturing side of it it will make you a better designer. One can design the craziest of things but if you cant actually make it, what does it matter?
<cursor> yeah i know what you mean, since i've started on the practical side my designs have become much more ergonomic
<cursor> which when it comes to design course's is a good thing lol
<cursor> think i had too much creative freedom as soon as it come to manufacture , i hit alot of problems
<cursor> anyway haha before i start going on n on , how many people do you tihnk roughly contribute towards the ubuntu artwork?
<_MMA_> Well that depends of your definition of "contribute".
<_MMA_> 1, full-time person is paid to work on it. He is guided by what Mark S wants to a large degree.
<cursor> ah i didnt know that , well erm more specific say how many artists rougly contibuted to the art work of the last release?
<_MMA_> But after the final design direction is fleshed out, there will be things that need done. At some point soon that should all be known. We're kinda waiting atm.
<_MMA_> So one we know people can jump in and help where needed.
<_MMA_> I couldnt tell you a number. Very little actually. For various reasons.
<cursor> ahh i see , see i hadnt really got an idea how the whole artwork community worked
<_MMA_> It has its own way of working along with a up and down history. Just hang out. You'll get the hang of it.
<cursor> okay will do
<cursor> soo in the great scheme of things really any work i do wont make the next version
<_MMA_> Into Hardy?
<cursor> yup i know stupid thing to say haha
<_MMA_> Who knows. Most are waiting around for guidelines so they can try to help with what needs done.
<cursor> ahh i see
<cursor> troy_s i just seen your logo for the ubuntu studio hardy , very nice work
<cursor> _MMA_ you manage the ubuntu studio project?
<_MMA_> Yes I do.
<cursor> oh wow nice
<cursor> i really like the feel your trying to create for the next release
<_MMA_> The DIY thing?
<cursor> yeah , the whole distressed , indie image
<cursor> really nice
<_MMA_> Thats been postponed. Im just not getting enough help on it and rather than try to force it myself Im delaying it.
<cursor> it sorta reminds me of the artwork for the mika album (i know mika sad haha) but i really lked the album cover
<_MMA_> ;)
<cursor> ahh pitty , i dont mind helping in someway
<kwwii> evening
<kwwii> cursor: I will be defining the direction for Hardy and beyond very shortly, if you are interested in working on the design/artwork
<kwwii> for the default work, that is
<cursor> oh okay yup i find the whole project really intresting
<kwwii> naturally, for everyone interested in creating something worthwhile, we will include community wallpapers too
<kwwii> erm, community themes
<cursor> it gives me something to put my skills to use where i feel im actually achiving something
<kwwii> cursor: any work you can show us? :-)
<kwwii> better put :D
<_MMA_> http://peterhollis-design.carbonmade.com
<cursor> not really i'll try n gather everything up i have , it scatered all over the place haha
<cursor> i have a hardrive somewhere with some vector art on i did a while ago i'll have to get that hooked up
<troy_s> kwwii: So what was the result?
<kwwii> troy_s: it is the weekend...I have lots of shit ranging throughmy head at this time
<troy_s> kwwii: Oh I thought it was a one dayer.
<kwwii> troy_s: the most important thing right now is that Hardy, the next LTS will be the end of this cycle
<kwwii> so any really major changes will be things that we start now and finish in Hardy+1
<cursor> sounds like you lot have alot of work
<kwwii> cursor: no doubt, and I have one more day before I go on vacation until the second week in January
<cursor> wow, whats happening with the project till then?
<cursor> whens the release target for hardy? i not checked
<kwwii> cursor: speaking for myself, I am going crazy!!!! wooooohooooooo!
<cursor> haha well things are going well then lol
<kwwii> yeah, there will be more info coming soon
<cursor> good, it will be intresting for me to follow the project even if i dont end up contributing much
<kwwii> lol, yeah
<kwwii> me too
<cursor> lol
<cursor> im off now thanks for all the help
#ubuntu-artwork 2007-12-09
<macogw> can any of you tell me where to find documentation on making gtk themes?
<troy_s> macogw: There aren't any extremely useful resources in terms of pdf compendiums etc.
<troy_s> macogw: The best advice I can give is to learn about the differences between GTK engines
<troy_s> macogw: Are you interested in coding them or just want to mock some things together.
<troy_s> ?
<macogw> coding them
<macogw> or if there was a nice clicky way to do it, that
<troy_s> macogw: Then your best starting point is the GTK docs
<troy_s> macogw: In the end, all of GTK is based on a class based cascading system
<macogw> and if there's not a nice clicky way to do it, in thinking about how to code up a nice clicky way to do it
<macogw> like css?
<troy_s> macogw: Knowing the various classes is important...
<troy_s> macogw: No... like object oriented code.
<troy_s> macogw: Let me find you the ref.
<macogw> ok
<macogw> thanks
<troy_s> http://library.gnome.org/devel/gtk/2.12/ch01.html
<troy_s> macogw: If you want the best advice that I know of, I would suggest start by familiarizing yourself with the default coded engines (Glider, Clearlooks, etc.)
<troy_s> macogw: From there, figure out what you want to do via an inkscape mock or something.
<troy_s> macogw: Then try to 'implement' it using the 'pixmap' engine which allows you to use pixmaps instead of code (still a PITA but better than code to get things done)
<troy_s> macogw: Then perhaps get it into code.
<macogw> ok thanks
<troy_s> macogw: Was that helpful, or completely misleading and making it cloudy?
<macogw> helpful
<macogw> i didnt know how it worked at all
<troy_s> macogw: It is tedious.
<troy_s> macogw: Basically, you have a gabillion 'widget' classes (as per that link)
<troy_s> macogw: If you define a look for a higher level class, it will cascade down (helpful in pixmap)
<troy_s> macogw: The best and quickest path to a mock is download neutronium or another pixmap theme from gnome look and analyze it.
<macogw> ok
<macogw> do pixmap ones still use a theme engine?
<troy_s> macogw: Yes.  The pixmap themes use the 'pixbuf/pixmap' theme engine.
<troy_s> macogw: gtk-engines-pixmap - Pixmap-based theme for GTK+ 1.2
<troy_s> macogw: Another little known engine that might be extremely useful is dborg's LUA engine.
<troy_s> macogw: It uses LUA scripting to deal with drawing...
<macogw> ok
<troy_s> http://dborg.wordpress.com/2006/12/12/updates/
<macogw> troy_s: oh, do you know where (other than searching gnome-look.org) to find out how different theme engines look or something to compare how they render different things?
<troy_s> macogw: That one is easy
<troy_s> macogw: 1) Install your engines and some sample themes that use them
<macogw> and then play with the widget factory
<troy_s> macogw: 2) Use your 'appearance' applet to change the appearance of your test environment,
<troy_s> macogw: 2.1) select 'customize' and change the controls
<troy_s> macogw: That is probably the easiest.
<macogw> xchat-gnome crashed when i did that
<macogw> firefox, surprisingly, didn't
<troy_s> macogw: Weird, it shouldn't.
<troy_s> macogw: Reg that bug!
<macogw> it could be a bug in the theme
<macogw> i know OOo's issues were with broken themes, though they did find a way to make OOo not freak out at broken ones
<macogw> usually firefox freaks out when you switch themes
<troy_s> macogw: It should be fine, but slow
<troy_s> macogw: Firefox just gags a while.
<macogw> firefox 3 used to crash when i switched themes
<macogw> apparently the most recent update fixed that
<macogw> it's probably due to their experimental support for gtk
<darkmatter> troy_s: pixmap is STILL E-V-I-L. point in question, sorted the look 'n' feel I was after using pixmap, now moved on to engine code
<BHSPitLappy> WHY ARE GUTSY ICONS BLURRY
<BHSPitLappy> it seriously maddens me
<cursor> Hey
<cursor> _MMA_ how are you doing?
<_MMA_> Fine.
<DanaG> Hmm, right now I'm using a theme with the Aurora engine, and while it looks nice in blue, I feel it's missing the orange that makes it distinctly Ubuntu.
<DanaG> Hmm, I suppose many people are probably away or idle, doing other things, due to it being a weekend.
<troy_s> DanaG: You mean brown.
<DanaG> Both, actually.
<DanaG> Orange and brown can look good together if done right.
<DanaG> Right now I'm using a theme called "Jellyfish-Aurora", which is partly based on Fedora's "Nodoka" theme, but not as "OMG-I-Need-Sunglasses!" bright blue.
<DanaG> Oh yeah, one cool feature from Fedora 8 that I'd love to see in Hardy: the slideshow-wallpaper feature.
<DanaG> The wallpaper changes over the day, so it's dark at night and bright in midday.
<darkmatter> meh... I hate cairo. nah. take that back. I hate bloated engine code more  :-|
<DanaG> Heh, I see the name Nodoka, I think of the character from Negima.
<darkmatter> DanaG: probably where fedora stole the name from ;P
<DanaG> http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Interviews/MartinSourada
#ubuntu-artwork 2008-12-01
<kwwii> moin moin
<robsta> he _MMA_
<_MMA_> yo
 * _MMA_ will bbiab. (takin' the kids to school)
<thorwil> hi!
<robsta> hi thorwil
<thorwil> robsta: do you really think we should encourage early testers to install the engine to /usr? at the same time librsvg in /usr/local shouldn't pose a problem, right?
<robsta> thorwil: it won't work anywhere else
<kwwii> thorwil: I was thinking about this stuff and decided that I will try to put all this in a PPA so that people can just install it
<robsta> thorwil: it's only for people who know what they are doing ATM
<thorwil> kwwii: that's very cool, but too early ;)
<kwwii> thorwil: yeah, I was thinking that myself
<robsta> kwwii: maybe after the next release, things are changing on a daily basis
<kwwii> robsta: cool, I'll wait a bit then
<robsta> kwwii: i'm very happy to work with thorwil ATM, he's keeping me busy already :)
<thorwil> robsta: i have a bit of icon work on my list, but i'm eager to continue on widgets. what do you think how we should continue?
<kwwii> robsta: excellent :-)
<robsta> thorwil: what do you mean? which kind of widgets?
<thorwil> robsta: any :)   as in controls, not desktop widgets if you mean that
<thorwil> robsta: i currently lean towards having all, or at least most, in one SVG
<robsta> thorwil: i don't know what you mean. My questions is whether you are asking me with which kinds of widgets to pursue next, or if you mean anything else.
<thorwil> robsta: both :)
<thorwil> robsta: which one to attack next and if you have any other thoughts on the process to use
<robsta> thorwil: the whole theme in one svg is fine with me. Regarding widgets, hmm, maybe GtkEntry?
<robsta> i need to implement focus-indicators next anyway
<robsta> (`aura'-style focus indicators from the original widget's plate, that is)
<thorwil> hope there's a way to take care of that without needing any switching around in the template
<robsta> thorwil: got some ideas
<thorwil> cool
<thorwil> coffee break, bbl :)
<_MMA_> I just don't like the neg space above/below the map here. http://img370.imageshack.us/img370/5498/ibmhfe2.png I need 1 more element to make it more, "metal". :P
<thorwil> _MMA_: it's a bit strange to see a planar world map in a circle. kinda makes you expect a globe.
<_MMA_> ie: The lat/long lines?
<thorwil> _MMA_: if you want to fill the void, how about a skull with a winged snake coming out of one eye socket, the snake puking out half-eaten demon fetuses?
<_MMA_> hahaha. I'm *trying* to keep it somewhat "un-cheesy". :) Kinda professional. :)
<thorwil> globe vs world map: http://static-p4.fotolia.com/jpg/00/02/65/15/400_F_2651500_i3VOmWuekU1y5gvfu1G8jqjTq6hnXC.jpg  http://www.webresourcesdepot.com/wp-content/uploads/image/free-vector-world-map.gif
 * _MMA_ clicks.
<thorwil> _MMA_: you could make the map larger by letting it break the black ring
<thorwil> that means leaving gaps in the ring
<_MMA_> hmm...
 * _MMA_ tinkers.
<_MMA_> Does a clipping path only keep the areas where 2 objects overlap or can it remove them also?
<thorwil> _MMA_: i'm not quite sure what you mean, but you can aways remove the clipping and the clipped path is as before
<thorwil> in the case of blur, the part outside of the clipping path can affect the inside
<_MMA_> Well say I have 2 overlapping circles. If I clip them what's left is a "crescent" kinda positive shape. I want to keep the circles and have the part where they overlap removed.
<_MMA_> Now I could do an "Exclusion" but there are too many shapes here to do that. Its not all 1 path.
<thorwil> _MMA_: you can clip entire groups. and you can use a path with a "hole" for clipping
<thorwil> _MMA_: use boolean ops to make a path in the shape of what you want to clip out. make another path that encases the whole thing. substract the "out" path from the big one. use result as clip path
<_MMA_> I get it now. Though I don't like the results/direction. I gotta think of something else.
 * _MMA_ Google's other union logos some more.
<_MMA_> Ahh hell. I'll give it more thought while I put the 2nd coat of paint on this bathroom. bbl.
<kwwii> _MMA_: you want a mask, not clipping
<thorwil> troy actually _did_ something ;)  http://troy-sobotka.blogspot.com/2008/11/gift-from-me-to-you.html
<_MMA_>  *gasp*
<_MMA_> He also updated the look of his blog.
<robsta> thorwil: i see on the "Piece by Piece" wiki page you have an extra item for toggle-buttons
<thorwil> robsta: yes. i think toggle buttons should look a bit different
<robsta> isn't that the "Depressed" state of a regular button  already?
<robsta> ok, well, why not
<darkmatter> thorwil: agreed. considering a toggled button isn't depressed, it's 'active'
<robsta> thorwil: being kind of a scrollbar fetishist i must say these look awesome: http://cypohirogen.deviantart.com/art/Mail-Scrollbar-for-Leopard-79257200
<robsta> (fetishism for subtle scrollbars)
<thorwil> robsta: oh! :)
<darkmatter> there was a nice proof of concept someone did for gnome that was basically a rewrite of the scrollbar widget. great idea, and ver subtle as well, only problem it had (graphically) was it was dimpled to look like treads
<darkmatter> *looks for link*
<thorwil> robsta: sadly we can't just do away with the arrow buttons of gtk scrollbars. as much as i would like to (http://thorwil.wordpress.com/2008/05/09/popup-scrollbar-concept-demo/)
<darkmatter> oh... nm.. it was you:P
<thorwil> heh
<robsta> thorwil: you mean for usability reasons?
<robsta> hmm, that prototype seems a bit overkill to me
<thorwil> robsta: more or less. but actually mainly because that's how the gtk widget is made
<robsta> thorwil: huh?
<robsta> GtkScrollbar::has-backward-stepper, GtkScrollbar::has-forward-stepper
 * darkmatter thinks steppers are useless
 * Cimi agrees too
<Cimi> never used them
<Cimi> NEVER
<thorwil> that doesn't mean nobody uses them
<darkmatter> I actually study the way people use the ui :P and quite frankly, 99.999% of the people I've observed don't use them either
<thorwil> propose _any_ chance there and you have people up in arms
 * robsta has seen lots non-professional computer users use the steppers
<thorwil> i got lots of complaints for my concept lacks a way to page like you can with a normal scrollbar by clicking the trough.
<robsta> thorwil: i think it's overkill, because many savy users just use the mouse to scroll, unsavy ones the stepper
<thorwil> robsta: the point would be that nobody should use this very hard to hit little buttons
<_MMA_> robsta: And having no scrollwheel makes you "unsavy"? :)
<darkmatter> it's an archaic concept, imho. and the reason most people use them is psychology... it eventuall hardcodes itself into them as a habit. you see the little arrow and think 'go'.
<darkmatter> and the slider gives more precise control :)
<thorwil> robsta: so a theme engine has the option to just leave the steppers out?
<robsta> thorwil: it's built into gtk
<thorwil> the option i really would like to have is to have both buttons on one side
<darkmatter> it's not the engin thorwil, its gtk itself
<thorwil> that what i meant with "but actually mainly because that's how the gtk widget is made"
<darkmatter> and you can easily do the 'mac/next' thing with one side double steppers
<thorwil> darkmatter: where do i find that option?
<darkmatter> gtk had secondary steppers as an option, its just most themes dont enable them
<_MMA_> Not that I personally care one way or another, but I find them useful when I need to jump a small step consistently. Usually when comparing documents side-by-side.
<darkmatter> thorwil: like this
<darkmatter> GtkScrollbar::has-forward-stepper = 1
<darkmatter>   GtkScrollbar::has-backward-stepper = 1
<darkmatter>   GtkScrollbar::has-secondary-forward-stepper = 1
<darkmatter>   GtkScrollbar::has-secondary-backward-stepper = 1
<robsta> _MMA_: that was not the point i was trying to make; would be indeed interesting to know what share of users have a synaptics touch-apad/scrollwheel and how many are actually using it.
<darkmatter> 1 is true obviously, to disable just change the value to 0
<thorwil> darkmatter: doesn't look like it allows to have 2 on one side and none on the other
<darkmatter> it does, if you disable say, forward and secondary backward for example, one side will have no steppers
<_MMA_> robsta: Sure. Novel might have data like that as alot of usability studies come from them.
<thorwil> darkmatter: oh, ic
 * _MMA_ tries to avoid a "usability depends on audience" chat. :P
<darkmatter> thorwil: the secondary steppers sit opposit from the normal side of the trough. for example, the configuration shown there (all 4 enabled) looks like the ones here http://www.flickr.com/photos/92826085@N00/530053184/sizes/o/in/set-72157594488098254/
<darkmatter> if I disable the backward and seconary forward, the two top steppers go bye bye
<darkmatter> I really ned to work on that theme.. it looks a LOT different now, but I haven't touched it in 4 months :P
<_MMA_> darkmatter: Is it as simple as adding those lines to a gtkrc?
<darkmatter> _MMA_: yup. add them before the list of colors/engine, just paste it to the section with the theme 'rules', stuff like GtkStatusbar::shadow_type = GTK_SHADOW_NONE
<darkmatter>   GtkSpinButton::shadow_type = GTK_SHADOW_NONE, etc
<robsta> darkmatter: some nice stuff on your flickr, kudos
<darkmatter> just stick the options in there
<darkmatter> robsta: thanks
<thorwil> robsta: i'm not entirely opposed to shipping a theme with no steppers. but they should be in the template
<robsta> thorwil: talking about personal preference here, not trying to talk you into anything
 * robsta never uses stock themes
 * thorwil -> dinner
<_MMA_> darkmatter: Oh sweet. I know I've seen this before. Is there a way to just put them at the bottom? back/forward on bottom only?
<darkmatter> yup..
<_MMA_> Within these options? Im tinkering now.
<darkmatter> (11:46:30 AM) darkmatter:   GtkScrollbar::has-backward-stepper = 0
<darkmatter> (11:46:30 AM) darkmatter:   GtkScrollbar::has-secondary-forward-stepper = 0
<darkmatter> in my example.. you can technically just delete the secondary forward option
<_MMA_> Ok. I thought I had it. I just commented out instead of 1->0.
<darkmatter> but for the standard steppers, just flag the value for the backward to 0, and add in the option for a secondary backward
<_MMA_> Hell, I might just turn off altogether.
<darkmatter> standard' theme' I mean, most (not all though) have the option for the 'normal' steppers already in the template
 * _MMA_ lives with it for a bit before he decides.
<darkmatter> and speaking of templates, I've been meaning to make a proper one, with all standard gtk options, properly formatted and commented (there really is a lack of one, and using most themes as a template sucks, because I've never seen a single gtkrc that didn't need to be shredded :P)
<_MMA_> I wish someone wanted to do more work on the Studio theme. I'll let all kinds of crazy crap in. :P
<darkmatter> _MMA_: lol.. if I ever get back to the idea you gave me when you mentioed the mixer sliders :P I did a bunch of scetches for a theme (slightly influenced by photopro on mac for a general palette), that took subtle cues from actually studio equippment, even a slight wooden 'trin' on the edges of the metacity.. haven't actually made any graphics for it yet.. but still.. ;P
<darkmatter> why was that a c instead of a k? *shrugs*
<_MMA_> Sure. I'm really open to ideas. Especially Jaunty. I wanna try to get Rico to do a wallpaper.
<darkmatter> basically I was leaning towards a less black/more really deep charcoal for the primary shade.. it gives a more mat appearance. not that I have a problem with black, it's just it's really hard to get a black theme to not be overly luminous
<darkmatter> as pure black tends to glow almost as much as white ;P
<_MMA_> For Studio, I think we use it pretty sparingly. Just the metacity and panel. The overall color is more a charcoal.
<darkmatter> http://www.mac-dvd.com/image/mac-theme/mac-theme-photopro-1.5.jpg <-- the shade on the photopro windows is almost ideal I think
<_MMA_> *REALLY* close to what we do now. That pick just re-orders some things. Like our menus, we go lighter where they go darker. In any case, I'd be happy to work with you on something. Just don't commit if you can't follow through. :)
<darkmatter> lol... I'm not committing yet (very busy in RL), but I can thow some ideas around for now.. If I have time than I'll commit to something :)
<_MMA_> Sure. I know how it goes.
<thorwil> zoom and blur in inkscape, grrrrr
<kwwii> thorwil: it gives you time to think more about what you want to do :-)
<robsta> see you
<thorwil> byez
<dilomo> hi guys
<dilomo> how are you?
<dilomo> What do you think of this image (version of New Wave)?
<dilomo> http://img192.imagevenue.com/img.php?image=64395_Screenshot_122_452lo.jpg
<thorwil> dilomo: hi! fine, just trying to wrap up some work for tonight :)
<dilomo> whhat do you think of the new top?
<dilomo> of the windows on the screenshots?
<thorwil> dilomo: i have my problems with the hard cut between menubar and toolbar, generally
<dilomo> what do you offer as an alternative?
<thorwil> dilomo: either make toolbars to be like title and menus, or just have a distinct titlebar
<dilomo> that woul look too much like dust don't you think?
<dilomo> would*
<thorwil> *shrug*
<dilomo> :)
<dilomo> nevermind
<dilomo> what are you doing
<dilomo> drawing tonight?
<thorwil> inkscaping :)
<thorwil> dilomo: this was far too literal and not clickable enough: http://thorwil.wordpress.com/2008/11/30/ingen-icon/
<dilomo> what was that
<thorwil> so working on a more traditional take
<dilomo> site with the FOSS Inkscape manual
<thorwil> huh?
<dilomo> you make music?
<thorwil> yes
<dilomo> can you send me smth if its free
<thorwil> allthough lately graphics always got priority
<dilomo> ofcource
<thorwil> dilomo: just follow the My Music link
<dilomo> stupid me
<dilomo> :)
<thorwil> gotta run, cya!
<dilomo> it's good
<dilomo> "we don't want you" ;)
<dilomo> buy
<dilomo> bye*
#ubuntu-artwork 2008-12-02
<_MMA_> hmm... Where's thorwil?
<_MMA_> kwwii: You in the states yet?
<kwwii> _MMA_: nope, not till sat
<_MMA_> Ahh...
<thorwil> hi!
<_MMA_> thorwil: Yo. :) I was thinkin' about the CSS engine template. Would it be good to design it like The Widget Factory is laid out? It's a familiar layout that might help people use the template. Just an idea.
<thorwil> _MMA_: the button table already says no. now area by area ... maybe
<_MMA_> Hmm... Maybe I don't understand how it works yet.
<thorwil> why?
<_MMA_> I *thought* it just generated a bunch of images from the template.
<kwwii> _MMA_: I was thinking along the same lines, but there are some widgets not shown in twf iirc
<_MMA_> kwwii: Sure, So that where we deviate.
<_MMA_> kwwii: Do we just have an older TWF? Because I see screenshots with more widgets on it lately. More stuff at the bottom. Or an I just missing something?
<_MMA_> Oh. Its not official. http://www.opendesktop.org/content/show.php/The+Unofficial+Widget+Factory?content=83361&PHPSESSID=ba3cd71e0e944ce027705692e622f781
<_MMA_> Adds "expander" and "Calender".
<kwwii> _MMA_: exactly
<kwwii> and apparently that version still has some bugs
<kwwii> still, I see no reason not to at least roughly base it on the same layout as twf
<_MMA_> Kinda odd still. Why this isn't upstream. I wonder if its unmaintained?
<_MMA_> What? The template based on TWF?
<kwwii> well, in the end the fact that you layout all the widgets in one piece will make it roughly similar
<_MMA_> Sure. If done right, it could look *exactly* like TWF.
<kwwii> in the end, this is all very close to the hildon template (which is pretty complicated once you get into the fine details)
<kwwii> time for dinner, bbl
<_MMA_> later
<thorwil> 8-]  https://stage.maemo.org/svn/maemo/projects/haf/trunk/hildon-theme-plankton/template/template.png
 * _MMA_ looks
<_MMA_> thorwil: Did you do that?
<thorwil> _MMA_: no, i'm just now looking what it is about that hildon template kwwii mentioned
<_MMA_> Ahh...
<thorwil> http://live.gnome.org/Hildon/ThemingOverview
<_MMA_> Oh I see. "maemo"
<thorwil> bonsoir nand. as soon as the old version is  out of caching, the brainstorm icon on the participate page will appear fixed :)
<thorwil> but right now it looks extra horrible :)  http://www.ubuntu.com/community/participate
<nand> thorwil: oh, you got that fixed? Thanks :)
<nand> always been pixxelated
<thorwil> nand: np. it felt like a slap in _my_ face ;)
<nand> I understand :)
#ubuntu-artwork 2008-12-03
<thorwil> hi!
<robsta> hi thorwil
<thorwil> robsta: hi! i'd like to have the template version-controlled while building it up
<thorwil> robsta: what do i have to do to get an account?
<robsta> thorwil: what kind of account?
<robsta> gnome svn?
<thorwil> yes, so i can check in
<robsta> thorwil: i'd be fine if it was in launchpad or somewhere else too
<thorwil> robsta: easiest for me. i thought it might be more comfortable for you :)
<robsta> thorwil: if only bzr-playground.gnome.org was back on, it's under canonical's administration
<thorwil> robsta: whats "Rapid development            no (WARNING: this breaks theme switching)" about?
<robsta> thorwil: i'm just about to change that
<robsta> thorwil: to ensure full gtk compatibility the theme's css is translated into gtkrc and fed back to gtk
<robsta> so all gtk-internal colors and fallbacks are set up correctly
<robsta> the problem is that if you just feed the gtkrc back from the engine, the settings stick when you switch themes, and you get broken visual representation
<thorwil> sounds lovely
<robsta> so the css engine ships a small command-line tool `css2gtkrc' that translates theme.css to gtkrc
<robsta> so you can "include" it from the theme's boilerplate gtkrc
<robsta> like, include "theme.rc"
<robsta> problem is, while working on the theme you don't want to run the tool on each iteration
<robsta> (because it costs time)
<robsta> so you will just be able to to run "GCE_PREVIEW=1 ./twf"
<robsta> when the environment variable is set, the translated gtkrc is fed back automatically
<robsta> that's no problem inside TheWidgetFactory, because you just close it to get rid of messy settings
<robsta> and your desktop theme state stays intact
<robsta> ok?
<thorwil> i'm not sure i quite get it, but don't think i need to, now :)
<robsta> basically, the environment variable puts the theme engine in preview state
<thorwil> i remember i had some fun with messy theme switching with ubuntu community themes. wonder why there's no reliable reset mechanism
 * _MMA_ is saddened by the discovery that he *cannot* use all the outputs on his new SLI setup to drive 3 monitors. :( It either acts as a single card (with 2 outputs) or 2 cards with 4 outputs.
<_MMA_> Well, I can't use them as I thought I could.
<kwwii> _MMA_: guess you just need another monitor :-)
<kwwii> about time for me to head out to the motÃ¶rhead concert...be back much later
<_MMA_> Ace of Spades!!
<_MMA_> \m/
#ubuntu-artwork 2008-12-04
 * _MMA_ waves.
<robsta> hiya
<thorwil> hi!
<ldp> Hello
 * _MMA_ grabs Sebastian's newest stuff to put in Breathe-BZR.
<_MMA_> thorwil: I asked him to take a shot at the category icons as the would show an instant change in the set.
<_MMA_> But I think we should examine the current ones and see if we can draw something different.
<thorwil> *shrug*
<_MMA_> :P
<robsta> thorwil: have you decided on a repository / project for the template?
<thorwil> robsta: yes, i will add it to my kyudo repo. the button template is already there, actually
<robsta> thorwil: url?
<thorwil> robsta: https://code.launchpad.net/~t-w-/+junk/kyudo
<_MMA_> kwwii: You around?
<robsta> thorwil: good stuff
<thorwil> :)
<robsta> thorwil: unfortunately supporting all gtkrc widget style properties turns out to be more work than expected
<thorwil> robsta: will that have any consequences besides things taking longer?
<robsta> thorwil: guess not
<robsta> thorwil: people on #gnome-art have kindly reminded me that nautilus, libwnck and other libs' widgets have style properties too
 * thorwil -> coffee
<_MMA_> Crazy thing is, there can also be custom widgets. This has messed me up more than once with the Studio theme.
<robsta> yes, i'm talking of custom widgets, they will be handled
<robsta> (as long as they are following gtk conventions)
 * _MMA_ hopes this is all less of a mess with gtk3.
<robsta> _MMA_: there are some evil plans, keep an eye on gtk-devel-list
<robsta> of course politics plays a role in gtk development too
<_MMA_> "Evil" in a good way? :) I'm really so sick of it I'm about to go to KDE.
<robsta> _MMA_: sick of what?
<robsta> theming limitations?
<_MMA_> Partly. Also the "politics".
<robsta> hmm
<robsta> i often hear that qt/kde has superior theming, but i never see themes i like
<_MMA_> It does have good themes but they have historically been harder than GNOME to install. That's one reason I've stayed away before.
<robsta> _MMA_: i'm beating the drums for css support in gtk3, based on the lessons learned from my current work; we'll know more after the theming hackfest in Feb.
<_MMA_> robsta: Sounds great!  :)
<robsta> http://live.gnome.org/GTK%2B/NewThemeApi/Hackfest fyi
<robsta> it's quite great that you guys are helping out on the artistic side, this will strengthen my position :)
<_MMA_> :)
<robsta> cya
<_MMA_> later
<ldp> Back
<kwwii> _MMA_: hey man
<_MMA_> 1 sec. brb
 * _MMA_ is trying to do half of this. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1DWzuIreDGA
<_MMA_> kwwii: I was gonna say to get Ted to do some Inkscape hackin' while he's at UDS. :P
<lucazade> _MMA_: video is impressive :)
<kwwii> hehe, good idea...I was trying to get a hold of him about a few issues
<_MMA_> He's already supposed to be scriptin' creation of a source package for nightly PPA builds.
<dilomo> Does anybody knows how can I theme the toolbar of evoulution differently than the rest of the toolbars? I know of the following way:
<dilomo> widget_class "*EShellWindow.GtkVBox.BonoboDock.BonoboDockBand.BonoboDockItem*" style "newwave-evo-new-button-workaround"
<dilomo>  but it does not work for me because the style of the toolbar is applied to the menubar too and the result is this:
<dilomo> http://img219.imagevenue.com/img.php?image=05174_Screenshot_122_553lo.jpg
<_MMA_> dilomo: Might just be one of those things you have to live with. Otherwise, I have no clue.
<lucazade> no idea how to solve it dilomo
<dilomo> can't I use some better matching
<dilomo> not BonoboDockItem* but Tool* smth
 * kwwii is off to the store, bbl
<dilomo> btw what was the channel of gnome artwork?
<dilomo> I want to ask there too
<lucazade> ask cimi
<dilomo> ok
<dilomo> 10x
<_MMA_> #gnome-art I think
<lucazade> #murrine
<dilomo> there's nobody on gnome-art but me
<lucazade> :)
<andreasn> dilomo: on gimpnet?
<dilomo> oh you mean the server
<andreasn> yes
<andreasn> irc.gimpnet.org
<dilomo> adding it now
<andreasn> Evolution is currently moving away from bonobo, but that doesn't help right now I guess :)
<andreasn> http://mail.gnome.org/archives/evolution-hackers/2008-November/msg00009.html
<andreasn> or, currently, is in the process, rather
<dilomo> when are they going to get rid of bonobo?
<dilomo> in the next release?
<dilomo> btw it does not want to connect to irc.gimpnet.org
<andreasn> Matthew says "I still don't know." in the e-mail, I guess it depends a bit what Red Hat wants him to focus on during work hours
<andreasn> oh, try irc.gimp.org
<dilomo> so I have to think of a patch meanwhile :)
<andreasn> did irc.gimp.org work?
<dilomo> well probably not
<dilomo> because it is still connecting
<andreasn> irc.us.gimp.org might work
<dilomo> I think the problem is in my pidgin here
<dilomo> still nothing
<dilomo> and when I try to edit the settings the entry for the channel is inactive
<dilomo> I did it :)
<dilomo> finally
<dilomo> thanks andreasn
<_MMA_> Here's what I'm trying to get Compiz runnin' on. (smaller side ones are stand-ins 'till the 2-20" come in the mail) http://img100.imageshack.us/img100/4030/dscf5024resizedxf1.jpg But it looks like Cant do it in Intrepid atm. I need to go back to Hardy. (I need the abandoned xserver-xgl)
<dilomo> why is this not possible with the new
<lucazade> mma what i can call a play-station
<dilomo> xserver-xgl
<_MMA_> dilomo: It's unsupported and no longer in the repo.
<_MMA_> Go to the end of this: http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=884161
<dilomo> wow
<_MMA_> lucazade: It's all business on this thing I assure you. ;)
<dilomo> the specs are niec
<dilomo> nice*
<lucazade> you luck so :P
<_MMA_> dilomo: I'm runnin' on somewhat less of a setup (about half) but the idea is the same.
<dilomo> yeah but it should work too
<_MMA_> It will if I go back to Hardy.
<_MMA_> atm, I don't have the final side monitors so it's not important. I'm just setting thins up for now. Trying to get the xorg right.
<dilomo> i understand
<lucazade> _MMA_: i can understand you, i have to use for my job xfree86 instead of xorg on an old centos to make it work with the touchscreen
<lucazade> :)
<_MMA_> Oh wow.
<lucazade> _MMA_: like this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PS4xYwYS6nM
<_MMA_> Cool. :) So there's no new drivers for this then?
<_MMA_> I bet someone on the xorg or kernel list could port/write it.
<lucazade> i've found new one for intrepid but it's really hard to calibrate the touch
<lucazade> so workin on it
<lucazade> the old driver were not opensource :S
<lucazade> so i was able to port/make it work on latest xorg
<lucazade> *wasn't
#ubuntu-artwork 2008-12-05
<thorwil> hi!
<dilomo> hi
<dilomo> what's up thorwil
<thorwil> dilomo: weekend :D
<dilomo> party time!
<dilomo> btw how do you find the min/max/close buttons as style:
<dilomo> http://img187.imagevenue.com/img.php?image=15954_Screenshot_122_1lo.jpg
<lucazade> hi all
<dilomo> I'm wondering whether to change them or not
<dilomo> lucazade: hi
<thorwil> them?
<dilomo> the buttons :)
<dilomo> my English is not perfect
<thorwil> dilomo: the top of the active tab looks like there is a left-over of those colored marks. it's too broad or dark
<dilomo> colored marks?
<dilomo> what do you mean the 1px line?
<thorwil> dilomo: with colored marks i mean the strips above the active tab like seen in some clearlooks versions
<dilomo> aha so by too broad you mean ther is too much space?
<thorwil> dilomo: actually, the active tab page doesn't give any clear sign of being sunken in or raised
<dilomo> I know there is some kind of confusion in the tabs
<dilomo> cimi told me that ;)
<thorwil> dilomo: look at the title of the active notebook tab. the border above it is broader then the border on the side. it looks strange
<thorwil> dilomo: so do you want the active page to be sunken in or raised?
<dilomo> I want it sunken
<Cimi> I prefer raised tabs
<dilomo> but I can't make it
<dilomo> as the overlap will go away if I change some properties
<dilomo> such as GtkNotebook::tab-overlap
<thorwil> dilomo: you will need a clear shadow on the borders towards the light direction and highlights on the opposite. pretty much the reverse of what happens for buttons
<dilomo> thorwil: you are righ some tweaking is needed for the tabs
<dilomo> thorwil: but back to the question: Do you like the min/max/close buttons?
<dilomo> thorwil: and if not what you think should be done
<thorwil> dilomo: i do not. they are too busy and the differing height muddies the target areas
<dilomo> but don't you think that they will become too boring if they are the same height?
<thorwil> dilomo: i don't look at window buttons to get excited and guess few people do ;)
<dilomo> :D
<thorwil> dilomo: the focused window ... the single X button there looks fine. allthough sunken look is strange for a click target
<thorwil> dilomo: the single button looks rounded, bu the right side of the trio doesn't
<thorwil> it looks hexagonal
<dilomo> that is a problem indeed because I make a gradient in inkscape form black to white
<dilomo> and there is one place where the values of thr grad equeals the gray bg
<dilomo> and that roundness is lost
<dilomo> Don't know how to fix this
<thorwil> dilomo: b/w overlayed gradients rarely look as good as specifically coloured gradients
<dilomo> coloured?
<thorwil> dilomo: that is because the balance of colors varies from lit to dark areas in the real world in all common lighting situations
<thorwil> dilomo: i'm talking about a generic gradient that is meant to work on different backgrounds vs one that is made to fit for only one specific background
<dilomo> so you suggest me to make the beveal effect using some other colors than b/w
<thorwil> yes
<dilomo> good idea :)
<thorwil> dilomo: study shadows in the real world. they often appear blueish
<dilomo> yes (because the sky is blue) but in all warm theme this is not good approach
<thorwil> dilomo: have a look at http://www.itchstudios.com/psg/art_tut.htm
<thorwil> Light stuff
<dilomo> that's cooooooool! thanks
<thorwil> np :)
<lucazade> very nice stuff
<lucazade> bokkmarked
<thorwil> dilomo: there's a risk to end up with a grey mess when working with shadow color. but the other extreme is a sterile and synthetic look
<dilomo> an mine is on the sterile side ?
<thorwil> yep
<thorwil> dilomo: your light direction is straight from above, right?
<dilomo> yes
 * thorwil -> dinner
 * dilomo too
<Cimi> it's 6:30 PM
<Cimi> :-|
<Cimi> dinner? :\
<thorwil> _MMA_: hi! i'm right now looking at the svg for Sebastian's playing cards. he managed _almost_ perfect symmetry for the heart shape
<thorwil> but is wasteful with nodes :)
<_MMA_> :)
<_MMA_> Make any revisions you like. I'll up them.
<thorwil> _MMA_: nah, i will just give him example with how few nodes it can be done. not for performance considerations, but to make his live easier
<dilomo> Cimi: I din't ave lunch today so it's dinner for me ;)
<_MMA_> Sure. It's always great to streamline. :)
<_MMA_> thorwil: A heart could be done with 2 nodes couldn't it?
<thorwil> _MMA_: not quite. makes the round parts ... not round
<thorwil> 4 nodes
<dilomo> Cimi: I'm obviously still hungry because I eat letters too :)
<thorwil> he has 18
<dilomo> thorwil: but the icon is good
<thorwil> dilomo: yes. i'm always feeling a bit uneasy criticizing him, as he's better at drawing icons by now :)
<dilomo> thorwil: :)
<dilomo> but the brush is not good
<_MMA_> thorwil: Naa... I think he welcomes it.
<dilomo> it should look wooden
<dilomo> not plastic
<thorwil> _MMA_: i know. he also has a great attitude. only wish he would join us here
<_MMA_> yeah
<_MMA_> dilomo: I have brushes with plastic handles. :)
<dilomo> yes but they are not classic
<dilomo> I have too bit the wooden ones are gourgeous
<_MMA_> So it depends on what you're going for. :) *You* want a more classic look. He might not. :)
<dilomo> _MMA_: probably
<dilomo> I think that the biggest icons should have more details
<_MMA_> dilomo: Feel free to raise the question though. Just dont be like Cimi and call it "ugly" or something. :P
<Cimi> gh
<_MMA_> hehe
<dilomo> Cimi: _MMA_ is right you are a bit hard on newcomers
<_MMA_> dilomo: I think it's a bit of a language barrier sometimes. Needs nicer words to express dislike. :)
<Cimi> though sometimes I need something harder than ugly, maybe horrible? :D
<dilomo> :D
<_MMA_> ;)
<Cimi> something like "ooh after seeing that theme, my eyes refuse to stay open" :D
<_MMA_> "My eyes just vomited all over the screen."
<Cimi> omg
<Cimi> that sounds great ;)
<_MMA_> :P
<thorwil> i had to clean my eyes with alcohol after looking at that!
<Cimi> ahahah
<Cimi> give me a whiskey please :P
<dilomo> your speech gentlemen is embarrassing
<dilomo> ;)
<thorwil> what is a speech-gentleman? ;)
<dilomo> :)
<Cimi> thorwil, if you're planning about a default-theme or something similar work on mockups rather than looking on *how to implement with the css engine*. that engine will be just like the pixbuf engine but with few features more (just like experience engine): it is really important for newcomers but not for fast and default themes.
<thorwil> Cimi: i intend to combine both
<Cimi> what do you mean?
<thorwil> Cimi: most of the How for the css-engine is worked out already and a template for it will also be a mockup of all important widgets
<Cimi> what I meant is that let's keep on helping people understand how that experimental engine works, because it will be interesting for a lot of new guys
<Cimi> but for your ideas of a default theme let's still rely on cairo for drawing, and with custom code inside the engine
<Cimi> you just need to find out a good cairo coder, then you can draw a lot of images and effects through the lib
<lucazade> guys may i ask you how much is ugly the theme i'm making? :) http://img176.imageshack.us/img176/4453/uglyvn7.png
<lucazade> i know is not an original effect
<lucazade> just wondering
<Cimi> lucazade, more lightborder_ratio on the tabs
<lucazade> yep
<lucazade> not satisfied of tabs
<dilomo> It remind me of a theme ...
<lucazade> a lot of
<lucazade> :)
<thorwil> Cimi: regarding finding a good developer, i'm quite happy to work with robsta so far ;p  it's not exactly easy to find someone to implement your own ideas
<Cimi> thorwil, I mean for the cairo drawings
<Cimi> anyway robsta is a great guy
<dilomo> lucazade: but the grey color is too dull, don't you think?
<lucazade> dull ... means dark?
<dilomo> no dull like fog
<lucazade> ok
<lucazade> mmm maybe :-/
<thorwil> Cimi: i fully expect that the css-engine will be only useful for prototyping for quite a while. but that's exactly what i need
<Cimi> thorwil, the only things that are actually difficult to implement with cairo are shadows bigger than 2-3 pixels
<Cimi> I've written an algorithm, it will be in the next gnome-do (0.7.0) but it's not exactly as using a gaussian blur
<Cimi> and it will be quite complicated for every button
<Cimi> a lot of code and drawing operations :(
 * Cimi wants convolution filters in cairo
 * dilomo wants gradient persets in Inkscape
<thorwil> too bad i use blur in the button template already
 * _MMA_ wants a pony!! Yay!
<lucazade> lol
<Cimi> thorwil, remove the blur :(
<Cimi> blur is basically a convolution with a gaussian kernel
<Cimi> it dramatically depends on the performance of your system
<Cimi> because it's a long math operation
<thorwil> Cimi: what i'm doing with it could be approximated with 9 areas and gradients, i guess
<thorwil> Cimi: radial gradients in the corners, linear one on the edges. all running out to zero alpha
 * _MMA_ hopes this isn't a "We need to keep in mind systems older than 5 years." opinion from Cimi.
<Cimi> thorwil, I've used log for similar things
<Cimi> _MMA_, it's not 5 years old
<thorwil> Cimi: log?
<Cimi> it is 0 months old
<Cimi> thorwil, logarithm
<Cimi> _MMA_, you need to do an integral between your original function/image with and a gaussian exp
<_MMA_> Cimi: Sorry. That was probably too much English for you. I mean, we need to be able to code for the future. Not the past. And what is "too old" is up for debate.
<Cimi> it's absolutely a long calculation
<thorwil> _MMA_: it's quite obvious in inkscape that blur is damn expensive
<Cimi> that's why there's no operating system that does this in software rendering
<Cimi> vista uses blur
<Cimi> but not with the software rendering
<_MMA_> thorwil: You usin' SVN? Its 50% faster now. Multithreaded. :P
<Cimi> it used the shaders inside the GPU
<Cimi> *uses
<Cimi> _MMA_, it's not about programming for the future
<thorwil> _MMA_: that will surely help me much on this single core :)
<Cimi> _MMA_, convolutions MUST NOT be coded to work with software rendering
<_MMA_> thorwil: doh! :)
<dilomo> Cimi is right
<dilomo> you have probably read about DX10on9
<Cimi> no
<dilomo> well for windows 7 they prepeare
<dilomo> a software layer that will
<dilomo> simulate SX10 on SX9 videocards
<dilomo> or even on machines with no GPU
<_MMA_> Cimi: Sure. Like I said, I *hoped* you weren't talking about holding code back because of the past. ;)
<dilomo> DX*
<Cimi> dilomo, blur operations can be done with ati radeon >= 95xx, geforce fx and intel x3100
<Cimi> _MMA_, oh ok, I misunderstood again
<Cimi> sorry
<dilomo> they tried to do the Crysis thing on 8 core i7
<_MMA_> :)
<dilomo> and guess the result ~7.9 fps
<_MMA_> dilomo: And got 7fps. :P
<dilomo> that's without GPU
<dilomo> but with GF 8800GTX you get 80fps
<_MMA_> dilomo: Is your screen >                                               < this big? You keep typing you sentences in half.
<Cimi> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Convolution#Definition
<dilomo> sorry ;) skype veteran
<Cimi> that's a pretty long calculation for the CPU
<thorwil> i'm surprised a CPU can actually read that!! 8-D
<Cimi> -.-
<dilomo> http://blogs.zdnet.com/hardware/?p=3109
<Cimi> dilomo, thanks interesting
<dilomo> np
<Cimi> the fastest algorithm I can imagine for drawing shadows is a for that prints a pixel each clock and moves to the next pixel uses the alpha value following an incremental logarithmic function
<Cimi> for blur operations you could follow an algorithm similar to the fake blur beryl plugin: strech an image 0.5x then strech 2x to get the original size with a loss in precision
<dilomo> yes but it looks like vista's blurr
<Cimi> no
<Cimi> neither of them could reach the same quality than using a convoltion filter
<Cimi> *of using
<dilomo> not exactly but the blurr of compiz is better
<dilomo> to my eyes at least
<Cimi> compiz is using convolution
<Cimi> but there was for beryl a fake blur plugin
<Cimi> for older video cards
<dilomo> aha I see
<Cimi> http://cgit.freedesktop.org/xorg/app/compiz/tree/plugins/blur.c
<dilomo> it looks like a complicated process
<_MMA_> I really don't know why GNOME doesn't officially adopt Compiz. KDE has their own stuff now. Seems like this would be a easy fit for GNOME.
<Cimi> dilomo, read createlineargaussiankernel
<Cimi> or similar
<Cimi> dilomo, it looks like a convolution, through a sum
<dilomo> _MMA_: probably it would happen in GNOME 3.0
<Cimi> remember that you can approximate integrak with a sum
<Cimi> _MMA_, maybe we will see the clutter backend for metacity
<_MMA_> dilomo: I don't know. Their still developing their own compositor.
<Cimi> there's a branch inside ohand's git that uses clutter as a compositing backend
<_MMA_> Cimi: Hmm.... Interesting.
<Cimi> http://git.o-hand.com/?r=metacity-clutter
<Cimi> slow on my nvidia
<Cimi> but from what they tld me it is quite fast with intel
<_MMA_> Nice.
 * _MMA_ will bbl.
<dilomo> Cimi: what is this clutter doing?
<dilomo> is it like compiz?
<Cimi> using clutter as a backend means having opengl
<Cimi> with opengl you can easily manipulate textures
<_MMA_> Oh. That's a big question. Best to Google.
<_MMA_> :)
<_MMA_> AWN uses it.
<Cimi> and if you get a texture from a window, you can do what you want with it
<Cimi> just like compiz does
<Cimi> _MMA_, awn is not using clutter
<Cimi> netbook-launcher by njpatel uses clutter
<_MMA_> Cimi: Sure? I thought Neil told ne that.
<Cimi> tweet (for twitter) uses clutter
<Cimi> _MMA_, yes I'm sure
<dilomo> sounds cool
<Cimi> awn is using cairo
<_MMA_> Ahh.. Thats right.
<_MMA_> Ok. No I'm really gone.
<_MMA_> *Now
<Cimi> http://folks.o-hand.com/ebassi/tweet-navigation.ogg
<Cimi> that is using clutter
<dilomo> looks great. Probably will make more sense with touchscreen
<Cimi> it's quite fun to use
<dilomo> that's sure :)
<dilomo> I have to go bye
#ubuntu-artwork 2008-12-06
 * _MMA_ contemplates bringing back some gloss to studio to drive Troy nuts. :P
<thorwil> _MMA_: be sure to add reflections!
<_MMA_> :D
<_MMA_> Big unnatural ones.
<thorwil> _MMA_: http://lh6.ggpht.com/eddie.con.carne/SOVBd2Y1FyI/AAAAAAAABrM/O6E0VJo4yf8/lexar.jpg
 * _MMA_ waits for his OpenSolaris install to finish.
<thorwil> but this is one of the best ever! http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2380/2326479747_b478f701c5.jpg?v=0
<_MMA_> hahahaha
<_MMA_> thorwil: Actually, what's even worse with the 2nd one is that it would reflect the ceiling and not the buildings.
<thorwil> when i'm grown up, i hope to have such a deep understanding of perspective and composition, too :)
<thorwil> _MMA_: yes, the floor is the main issue for me, actually
<thorwil> i hope you noticed the 8 vs 4 in the first image. even apple created a few examples of that kind
<_MMA_> You *might* get some *slight* reflection of the outside via the reflection of the glass but *nothing* as strong as what's there.
<_MMA_> thorwil: I noticed. Just didn't get out my joke fast enough. :)
<thorwil> http://lh3.ggpht.com/_EHZsoUS6SIA/SRn5L29e5zI/AAAAAAAACHY/dEhNjEsCy8o/hannsg.jpg
<_MMA_> hahahahhaha
<_MMA_> That's *real* bad. :)
<_MMA_> You know what really sux for OpneSolaris? No Inkscape. :(
<_MMA_> *OpenSolaris
<thorwil> no inkscape, no game
<_MMA_> As far as Inkscape goes I think it's something to do with how it's built.
<simas> I heard that gtk2 is more powerful than qt4, but is this true?
<lucazade> both gtk2 and qt4 are good and both have defects :)
<lucazade> depends on what are u lookin for
<lucazade> a toolkit can be defined powerful if fits my needs so..
<Cimi> simas, they have different features
<simas> i mean theres no engine which uses widgets animations
<lucazade> and a different learning curve in oprogramming
<Cimi> simas, animations are possible with both toolkits
<simas> gnome 3.0 should have animations like qt3 style polyester?
<Cimi> it depends if I want to implement them or not :)
<lucazade> eheh
<Cimi> actually I won't
<Cimi> expecially seeing there are a lot of nvidia cards with are dramatically slow using xrender
<lucazade> we need  good driver support for a fully eye candy desktop
<simas> but it dont slows down system when you use polyester style in kde
<Cimi> polyester for qt3 is not using vectorial drawings with antialiasing
<simas> so you can do same with gtk2 dont you?
<Cimi> I could remove antialiasing from gtk2, of course
<Cimi> but that means slow quality as qt3 (don't tell me polyester has a great quality of widgets)
<simas> well yeah
<simas> hmm but it feels like qt4 is slower than qt3 and gtk2
<Cimi> gtk2 has a longer experience in graphics
<simas> what do you mean by this Cimi?
<Cimi> that qt4 is quite new with vectorial drawings and graphics capabilities
<Cimi> while gtk supports vectorial drawings since gnome 2.12 IIRC
<simas> cool, so gtk2 is more powerful than qt4
<Cimi> no
<Cimi> there are other things where qt has advantages
<simas> for example?
<simas> and then why developers explained that theres no point to rewrite gtk because it is very powerful even more powerful than qt4 in gnome 3.0
<Cimi> rewriting is something crazy
<simas> ok
<simas> thanks for info
<simas> bye
<Nece228> Hello
<Nece228> Is possible that GTK2 widgets can be rendered with video card (same as composite)?
#ubuntu-artwork 2008-12-07
<knome> hi MadsRH
<MadsRH> Hi
<knome> so were you coming to uds or not?
<MadsRH> sadly, not :-(
<knome> ok
<MadsRH> Are you there now or packing? ;-)
<knome> have been here for a few days already
<knome> a sesion at fosscamp raised some questions about the teams and how do they work
<knome> so it would have been great to have you discuss on that on the artwork team
<MadsRH> yes it sounds great. I'm keeping a close look at the Youtube developers channel, hoping that videos will be uploaded like last year
<knome> oh
<knome> didn't know that
<knome> are they going to be public?
<tretle> hi, I was wondering if someone could give me some feedback on a splash redesign for anjuta im working on
<tretle> http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1004472
<MadsRH> knome -> you can see interviews from last time here: http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=ubuntudevelopers&view=videos
<knome> tretle, looks good, though the name is a bit too fat for my taste
<MadsRH> This is great if your missing out on UDS like me ;-) though I would like to see the "talks" streamed, like Debconf8 did
<knome> yeah
<tretle> knome - hmm.. wasn't using a bold font
<thorwil> tretle: the new text is a big improvement over the old.
<knome> tretle, the stroke? :)
<thorwil> knome takes old for new
<thorwil> (i guess)
<tretle> stroke?
<knome> tretle, the grey stroke outside the text
<knome> or am i having some display issues :P
<knome> ah oh
<knome> !
<thorwil> tretle: that horse head in the a looks too comic-like, i think. that was better solved in the old one. also not having the gnome foot in there is a plus
<tretle> ah, yeah.... I wasn't sure about the stroke, added it experimentally
<knome> sorry!
<knome> so the top one is the new?
<tretle> yup
<knome> ok
<MadsRH> tretle -> It looks great
<knome> i like the old horse more:)
<tretle> The icon in the old one isnt used at all anymore, the icon in the new one is the icon which replaced it some time ago
<knome> lol ok
<thorwil> tretle: whoever made the new horse head made it worse. the old has varying line width, making it come alive. the new one looks amateurish in comparison
<tretle> Well I had nothing to do with the redesign of the icon but I prefer it, it fits in with other icons better
<knome> is anjuta pronounced like un-utah ? :)
<thorwil> pah, it could be a giraffe as well in the new one
<tretle> Im wondering if I should put a thin black border around the blue part of the splash
<thorwil> tretle: it will most likely be surrounded by gray, right? consider a darker and maybe less saturated version of that blue as something in between a balck border and no border at all
<thorwil> as a black border might appear a little heavy
<tretle> it wont be surrounded by gray
<tretle> the splash doesnt have a gtk window border or anything, just the image itself with a progress bar overlayed on it
<tretle> was thinking that the progress bar could be a black underline for the text
<thorwil> tretle: in that case you could suggest a little depth by making the top and perhaps the left border a bit brighter
<tretle> hmm.... thanks for the feedback so far... must go for dinner.. will be back soon
<_MMA_> So I got a logo I've done for a free software project. They really like it, but don't have the time to use it now. They said I can put it out there, but what license do I use to make it public but keep the rights so the project can use it later? cc-by-nc-nd maybe?
<tretle> hmmmm..... I think I did an awful job at trying to give the blue part more depth
<tretle> http://img228.imageshack.us/img228/6126/anjutasplash7nt3.png
<knome> tbh yes a bit :P
<thorwil> tretle: i was thinking of the depth of cardboard or something like that, to be achieved with a 1px border
<tretle> new to gimp so doing everything manually, how do u apply an lpx border?
<thorwil> tretle: you are working with the wrong tool. so much simpler to thid kind of stuff in inkscape
<thorwil> tretle: however, you can do a select all, then shrink selection by 1 pixel, invert selection. this way is good if you want to use a gradient
<thorwil> tretle: for a single color edges in small images, you can use the pencil tool
<thorwil> 1px brush, click first corner, hold shift, click second corner ...
<tretle> how do youu get a shading/lighting effect with that brush?
<thorwil> tretle: you don't. just pick suitable colors ;)
<_MMA_> bah.. Bunch of useless good-for-nothings. :P
<tretle> hmmmm.... nice new thing to learn
<tretle> http://img132.imageshack.us/img132/7416/anjutasplash10hi5.png
<tretle> with gradiant border
<thorwil> MadsRH: just pick a license that will be compatible with the project. that can hardly include NC and ND
<thorwil> tretle: you have to include the bar at the bottom in your treatment. play around a bit more, maybe you will start to see the value of being subtle
<_MMA_> thorwil: huh? You get the name wrong there? :)
<thorwil> _MMA_: what, where?
<_MMA_> "thorwil: *MadsRH*: just pick a license that will be compatible with the project. that can hardly include NC and ND"
<_MMA_> I asked about license. :)
<thorwil> _MMA_: damn, really misread that
<_MMA_> :)
<_MMA_> thorwil: NC and ND *for now* as I will allow the project to decide license later, once and if, they use it.
<thorwil> _MMA_: just present the logo and say nothing. defaults nobody is allowed to do shit with it without your permission
<_MMA_> Ok. I guess that works.
<_MMA_> thorwil: It's the FLAC logo I did a bit ago. http://img155.imageshack.us/img155/4615/myflachl7.png
<thorwil> _MMA_: cute. the white borders have an entirely different effect for each of the colors
<thorwil> it's a glow for yellow, but less so for others
<_MMA_> Josh Coalson (lead on FLAC) really liked it but said he was just too busy for a update to the look of the FLAC site. I was gonna email him again and see if he would be open to a redesign if he had to do very little.
<tretle> http://img217.imageshack.us/img217/2696/anjutasplash11vi4.png
<tretle> had some complaints about the font so made a custom letter, think it looks alot better now
<tretle> what do u think?
<thorwil> tretle: do you have the previous image link at hand?
<tretle> http://img132.imageshack.us/img132/7416/anjutasplash10hi5.png
<thorwil> tretle: i still think the horse in the a is not a good idea. look at the snout, how it ends at the vertical stroke of the a. that's unfortunate. if you want to keep it in the letter, you should either make sure there is a gap between snout and stroke, or a clear overlap
<thorwil> tretle: does the new A have the same bow as the n and u?
<thorwil> tretle: a darker instead of a brighter background inside the "a" will help
<thorwil> tretle: the A is too close to the n if you look at the kerning of the other letters
<tretle> yeah, the A has the same bow as the n, not sure about the u. the new A is just a modified n
<andreasn> tretle: cool progress, as Naba mentioned in the bug report, perhaps something with a more dramatic feeling would be coo
<andreasn> cool
<andreasn> I would also drop the GNOME foot
<andreasn> maybe the big horse logo + some small text
#ubuntu-artwork 2009-11-30
 * darkmatter loves the new gnome
<darkmatter> unfortunately I hate udev. I need to find a way to blacklist a device from being checked (at least for a few days). my backup slave died, an I dun feel like pulling it yet, but bloody udev keeps trying to scan it :/
<kwwii>  good morning everyone
<kwwii> the pills are finally taking effect
<thorwil> kwwii: good morning! frog pills?
<kwwii> thorwil: hehe, pills for the cold I came down with :(
<mac_v> kwwii: whats with all the canonical folks.. :/ several seem to be sick with ubuflu ;p
<kwwii> mac_v: I had the flu during UDS, now I came home and got a normal old cold
<kwwii> so considering all the things I have been sick with lately, this isn't a big deal :D
<mac_v> lol , most definitely ;)
<thorwil> i just have a light sinusitis and diarrhea since coming back :/
<kwwii> ouch, suckage
<Guest3674> hello
<pete_> hello
<Guest47560> is anyone currently here?
<SiDi> no
<thorwil> Guest47560: people might be here but have not much interest in reacting on such a question. others might be busy or away, but look here in 5 minutes or 2 hours
<thorwil> Guest47560: so your best bet is to just start out with the topic or issue you have at heart
<thorwil> (true for irc in general)
<thorwil> and of course there's also people like SiDi. quite reliable :)
<SiDi> Yeah
<SiDi> I was in the first category, actually
<SiDi> but i thought it's better to let Guest47560 know that indeed we're not all bots. Even if my IQ isnt far above a bot's one;
<thorwil> SiDi: obviously you are unaware of the no-bots, negative mindless minions of never no good nihilism
 * thorwil is unaware of them, too
<SiDi> :)
<Guest47560> thanks for the hints
<Guest47560> I would like to embroider the Ubuntu logo to a towel
<Guest47560> has anyone done this already?
<thorwil> i recall that amber graner recently blogged about some textile thing with ubuntu logo, but i don't think it was embroidery
<thorwil> Guest47560: 2nd post, crocheting, though: http://amber.redvoodoo.org/
<Guest47560> thanks, I had a look there but it does not seam to be embroidery..
<thorwil> Guest47560: taking the risk of being called sexist, i'd bet that your chances of meeting someone who does this sort of thing would be better in #ubuntu-women.
<thorwil> Guest47560: otherwise i can only point you to the logo itself: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Official and suggest a google search, if you haven't done so already
<Guest47560> ah, good idea, i was not aware of such a group
<Guest47560> i did many searches already but it is pretty hard to find someting..
<thorwil> yes, sometimes it is. though, being mostly ignorant of the field, i thought it was covered fairly well nowadays with all the makers and crafters
 * mac_v wonders how many hate mail thorwil might get from the ubuntu-women for suggesting that ;p
<thorwil> lol
<Guest47560> That was a good idea, the girls could give me good tips!
<thorwil> Guest47560: glad i could help you a bit
<thorwil> good night! :)
<Guest47560> good night
 * darkmatter waves hi too coz_ from teh newest kernel
<coz_> darkmatter,  hey guy  :)
<darkmatter> this is quite impressive, even under heavy load, no swap usage, and lowish ram usage, if realatime had lips I'd kiss it
<coz_> :)
<darkmatter> I hate udev though. for the life of me there seems to be no way to stop it from reading a device other than physically removing it from the system
<darkmatter> coz_: udev hates one of my hardisks, so atm bootup is slow (the udev part of the boot sequence for that drive). but the rest of the boot sequence (other drives, various initializations, etc), takes about 17 second, but because of one unliked device the entire boot is like 2 minutes
<darkmatter> I think I'll have to pull the drive when I get back from my med trip tomorrow
<coz_> darkmatter,  yikes sounds like ubuntu karmic now lol
<darkmatter> to tired to do it today
<darkmatter> coz_: its a drive issue (its on the verge of dying). but the point is there should be a way to blacklist devices from udev, not just drivers
<coz_> darkmatter,  mmm   that one i dont think I have any info on  damn....
<darkmatter> like I said. the actual bulk of the boot process is under 17 seconds, but udev tries to read the one drive for almost two minutes
<darkmatter> coz_: I'm just searching atm. if I cant find a solution I'll just yank the drive *shrug*
<coz_> darkmatter,   go into ##linux  maybe they might have a solution
<darkmatter> coz_: all in all I'm loving all the new kernel/core system improvements. gnomes not bad either, but has a few regressions (mainly gtk related)
<darkmatter> hmm.. yeah. think I'll do that in a bit
<coz_> darkmatter,  i sometimes  go to that channel for things I cant figure out
<darkmatter> I need to update some software first. firefox 3.5 is a sow. gonna search for a 3.6 rpm at download.opensuse
<darkmatter> coz_: on an awesom plus note. suse fixed the slab :D
<darkmatter> its not slow as a slug anymore
<coz_> darkmatter,  yeah but you know I really really really dont like slab :)
<darkmatter> :P
<darkmatter> coz_: I don't love it either, but I like the basic concept better than nested hierarchies. it needs some serious design improvements, but overall its a move in the right direction
<coz_> darkmatter,  well...  I think the old tried and true list driven menus are just fine :)
<darkmatter> coz_: one thing irks me about the latest gnome panel. no more dnd rearanching of the windowlist :/
<coz_> darkmatter,  oh....I didnt notice
<darkmatter> coz_: yeah. gtk regression methinks. you cat rearrange running tasks anymore
<darkmatter> I got used to that feature
<coz_> darkmatter,  oh man
<darkmatter> coz_: I've been playing with the loginout plugin for compiz, and had an awesome improvement idea for it, turn it to a 'focus' plugin. so it can fade the desktp or just the parent window (dependin on settings), so certain things like preferences dialogs etc would be given extra focus
<coz_> darkmatter,   then suggest that to the devs!   go into #compiz-dev  at some point  or on the forums   although we are upgrading the forum right at this moment and correcting some issues  but still
<darkmatter> coz_: I have it set for gnome session/ gnomesu and other administrative dialogs. but it would be great for thing like the control center too, but just fade the control center window (akin to the fade on unresponsive apps) when a caplet is opened
<coz_> darkmatter,  sounds goog to me.... and is probably more than possible .... since compiz is being ported to c++ and hopefully out by christmas ...now migh
<coz_> be a good time to sugges this
<coz_> suggest
<darkmatter> would be easy enough to incorporate at the gui level. have a section for 'screen fade' and one for application level rules
<coz_> darkmatter,  there is an experimental plugin named   adddialog   what this does is allow the parent window to fade or not depending on the settings
<darkmatter> cool
<coz_> darkmatter,  although I have not used the login and out plugin ever so not sure if it ties into the addialog plugin
<coz_> darkmatter,   add  dailog is one of my favorites  for what it does
<coz_> darkmatter,  if you havent tried the experimental plugins  there is a script for it but not sure if it works on suse
<darkmatter> coz_: login/out just fades the screen minus the dialog(s) defined in the rules
<coz_> darkmatter,    http://dl.dropbox.com/u/132551/soreau%27s%20script
<coz_> darkmatter,  yeah that is similar to add dialog  but its for open windows and their dialogs  but may be tied into log out
<darkmatter> I keep it set to like 30% saturation and 50% brightness, so it has a bit of color but is darkened just enough
<coz_> darkmatter,  try that script on suse  see if it works
<darkmatter> kk. sec
<coz_> darkmatter,  on ubuntu it is just   ./soreau's script  install all  or use the  "i"  for individual install
<coz_> there about 20 experimental plugins there
<darkmatter> kk. I'll look at it in a sec
<coz_> ok
<darkmatter> just installing Thunderbird 3.0 RC 1
<coz_> ok
<Viper550> the ubuntu color scheme does not work on TV news
<darkmatter> yar! fixed flah by upgrading to an *unstable* firefox
<coz_> darkmatter,  seriously?  flash works now?
<darkmatter> yup. it worked in 3.5 too, as long as it wasn't interactive :P
<coz_> darkmatter,  I am finding flash on ubuntu and firefox 3.5  with interactive stuff  nearly useless
<coz_> especially if buttons have to be
<coz_> pressed
<darkmatter> but you can actually 'click' in it in the latest ff beta and have it do things. it was crap before
<coz_> darkmatter,  mm  have to see if I can install unstable onto ubuntu
<coz_> darkmatter,  what version is firefox unstable?
<coz_> 3.6?
<darkmatter> now to upgrade the few kde bits I have ing gnome (the missus likes the kgames better), because the default ones lock themselves in fullscreen. I also need to build qgtkstyle from the latest svn so it makes qt apps gnome-native \o/
<coz_> mm
<darkmatter> coz_: 3.6 and 3.7, but I'm running 3.6 because suse has a repo for it
<coz_> darkmatter,  ok I will check around later for it to see if flash works better on that
<coz_> found repo for 3.6   try it later :)
<coz_> supper time:)
<darkmatter> coz_: latest qtkstyle has new features, a patch against the icon-spec to use gnome-native bits, and they're supposed to be working on a patch for it to integrate gnome-native dialogs (file chooser et al).. thats pretty impressive WIP for a 'style'
#ubuntu-artwork 2009-12-01
<coz_> darkmatter,  cool....  i am hoping it all comes together in gnome3
<darkmatter> aye
<Viper550> I'm working on a new default for FluxBB
<mac_v> is it just me do do these two folders look awfully similar ? >  http://schollidesign.deviantart.com/art/Humanoid-nearly-Human-123984041   , http://drvi.deviantart.com/art/Ubuntu-Folders-Concept-128440400
<mac_v> the funny thing is i checked the svg from humanoid , it has the same couple of errors i had made in the originals ;)
<thorwil> mac_v: aren't thos simply variations of the breath folder, making them very similar, of course?
<mac_v> thorwil: hmm , actually , no.. i made mine from sebastien's concept , not the original breathe version
<thorwil> oh, Mads take on andreasn's original made it on http://abduzeedo.com/daily-inspiration-367?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+abduzeedo+%28abduzeedo+blog+-%29
 * kwwii heads to Stansted airport to fly home
<ckontros> mac_v: As Sebastien's icons weren't used, I wonder if you have permission. ;)
<mac_v> ckontros: my version was "based" on sebastien's concept drawing not ripped from his svg ;p
<mac_v> ckontros: actually where is the submissions page? it seems to have been moved
<ckontros> mac_v: Pretty weak argument IMO as it's just too similar but I don't /really/ care so I'll go away.
<mac_v> ckontros: hmm , found it > https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/BreatheIconSet/Discussion , not too similar i guess ;p
<kwwii> re
<ckontros> Hi Ken. That was quick.
<kwwii> ckontros: yeah, the flight back from london is really short
<kwwii> which is nice ;)
<kwwii> oh well, time for sleep
#ubuntu-artwork 2009-12-02
<zniavre> a friend leaves his mac OSX at home, it's quite nice it's my first experience with OSX
#ubuntu-artwork 2009-12-03
<Viper550> I seriously think the Ubuntu guys designed the new graphics on my local ABC affiliate
<BHSPitMonkey> ?
<Viper550> http://i47.tinypic.com/2lvmrmd.jpg check this out
<BHSPitMonkey> so?
<thorwil> kwwii: good morning! so you invited Saleel to create a page on the wiki. for a wallpaper. this asks for a change of policy ...
<thorwil> or a retraction
<zniavre> hello
<zniavre> im trying to leave an icon on the right side of nautilus toolbar (spinner?) i do not understand how to do it
<kwwii> zniavre: not sure I understand what you want
<zniavre> kwwii,  hi   > http://img130.imageshack.us/img130/373/dujour.png
<kwwii> zniavre: you just need to replace the right file
<kwwii> I think ubuntu studio did something like that
<kwwii> thespinner only shows up when it takes long enough though
<kwwii> so you won't always see it anyway
<zniavre> ok i ll install studio theme thank you
<kwwii> I know that ckontros knows how to do it
<kwwii> ckontros: ^-------^
<zniavre> :o)
<mac_v> zniavre: you want the icon shown during normal state also or ...?
<zniavre> mac_v,  all the time yes
<mac_v> zniavre: i'v tried that too , but for some reason , it seems not used in nautilus... i believe it has been removed... [i hope i'm wrong though] :)
<mac_v> zniavre: nautilus might be the right place to ask , i guess
<mac_v> #nautilus
<mac_v> kwwii: around? got a few mins...?
<kwwii> mac_v: hey
<thorwil> kwwii: hi. i'm sorry we are not on the same page regarding the wiki background policy. i thought i had been bold and clear enough ;)
<kwwii> thorwil: well, it was my fault :p
<kwwii> thorwil: I will put something together soon
<thorwil> ok
<thorwil> kwwii: you recall https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Documentation/WorkshopConception in case your "something" will touch a wider scope?
<kwwii> thorwil: yes, and I will write something up first and then send it around for discussion
<thorwil> cool
 * thorwil had to fix his cousins win-xp system and it came down to games hindering a switch ...
<kwwii> lol
 * kwwii cooks dinner, bbl
<zniavre> mac_v,  thank you
<zniavre> i tried but the "icon" is too big ( as not scaled)
<mac_v> zniavre: hmm ,  how did you fix it?
<zniavre> i did not at the moment
<zniavre> :o)
<mac_v> zniavre: oh..  so it needs a smaller icon?
<zniavre> what i am yhinking
<zniavre> thinking*
<zniavre> im scared to use inkscape on this computer
<mac_v> zniavre: what size do you want?
<mac_v> zniavre: yeah , it works... hehe , i hadnt used it for a long time ;)
<zniavre> i do not know yet, im first waiting for my childrens in bed
<zniavre> i just tried the ubuntustudio-icon set (animations folder)
<mac_v> ah , now i remember... i had tried it long back and had postponed the idea to get the animations working right :(
<zniavre> :o)
<zniavre> 2mn to get inkscape open ...
<ckontros> zniavre: So what are you trying to do with the spinner in Nautilus?
<zniavre> ckontros, i m trying to understand how it works but i want to show an icon even if nautilus does nothing
<zniavre> im trying with ubuntustudio-icon-themes but it's not scaled correctly
<zniavre> im afraid to understand i hav to scale the animations svg but my comp is too old to   run inkscape normaly so i gave up for the moment, thank you answering
<ckontros> zniavre: Show a screenshot. Note, that the icons in Studios theme meet the spec and have worked as expected.
<ckontros> zniavre: I'll try to pull the template and script I made for the throbbers. I emailed the list ages ago about it.
<zniavre> nice thank you
<zniavre> sorry for lag my pc is really slow  >http://img26.imageshack.us/img26/3421/capturezf.png
<ckontros> zniavre: Ive seen that. You have a setting there that does it. I'll try to remember what it is.
<ckontros> zniavre: Here *was* the link. https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-art/2007-November/004492.html But the archive is gone. Maybe kwwii will let me re-up it.
<zniavre> ok
<ckontros> zniavre: PM me your email. I'll sent it to you.
<ckontros> zniavre: Sent. Note, the script uses Inkscape. Just look through the files. I'm sure you'll get it. ;)
#ubuntu-artwork 2009-12-04
<coz_> hey all
<mac_v> kwwii: no 3 > http://linuxologist.com/general/7-instances-of-kde-appearances-on-the-silver-screen/
<mac_v> ;)
<kwwii> mac_v: hehe, cool...I love seeing stuff like that
<zniavre> http://pc-hacks.blogspot.com/2007/10/make-up-over-your-windows-look-like.html
<mac_v> kwwii: can we get a cursor refresh for Lucid? ;)
<kwwii> mac_v: if we had something better we could consider it
<ckontros> zniavra: Any luck with the Nautilus throbbers?
<mac_v> kwwii: thats always the tough part :)
<kwwii> ;)
<zniavre> ckontros, not really i tried only one time (computer is too slow to do something easily)
<ckontros> Darn
<zniavre> i got one garbage 900mhz pc with too many ram and one laptop 2.8ghz 128mo RAM both are unusable
<ckontros> Ouch. Well, if you want, do you want the outputted files?
<ckontros> I can email them.
<zniavre> no thank you i ll manage to learn it another day
#ubuntu-artwork 2009-12-05
<ckontros> Just a note: http://www.flickr.com/groups/ubuntustudio-artwork
<thorwil> sad
<mac_v> kwwii: hi... the gnome-icon-theme git , uses a red icon like >  (/) for edit-delete , but the Ubuntu version uses a trashcan? why is there a difference?
<mac_v> or thorwil ^ ?
<ckontros> http://www.gimpusers.com/tutorials/gimp-2-8-new-features.html
<kwwii> wow, the last update to karmic totally borked my system
<ckontros> kwwii: Mine went fine.
<kwwii> ckontros: this was a fresh install with a normal update
<kwwii> this morning it only works in windows
<kwwii> not event he recovery system can get it to a console
<kwwii> it is like god pressed a button
<coz_> is anyone here going to push for ..at the least..better wallpaper in Lucid??  now is the time ...:)
<DanRabbit> coz_: I thought the wallpaper turned out pretty good for Karmic
<coz_> DanRabbit, `o0
<coz_> not during the boot sequence
<coz_> those images should be the same image
<coz_> desktop image and xsplash should be consistent
<kwwii> coz_: I don't think that is a rule
<kwwii> although they should certiainly play well together
<coz_> sorry about that
<coz_> kwwii,  of course it';s not a "rule" but it is artistically sound
<coz_> :)
<coz_> when I first booted into karmic I assumed... sensibily..that that muddy image was also going to be the desktop image..albeit that muddy image is not good  still it makes sense that the xsplash and desktop image would be the same
<coz_> smoother transitioins
<coz_> visually
<coz_> I am on lucid right now and of course that same xsplash image is present
<kwwii> coz_: I spent many years saying they should be the same or derived works
<coz_> as is the karmic wallpaper
<kwwii> that was why I helped write the bootsplash
<kwwii> to do exactly that
<coz_> sorry again
<coz_> new keyboard :(
<coz_> kwwii,  and you had no reasonalbe responses to that?
<kwwii> not sure I get you
<coz_> kwwii,  you say you spend many years saying they should be same or derived works... no one responded to that  over the years?
<kwwii> actually, the first person to tell me that they don't have to be was mark
<coz_> kwwii,  well of course he said that he is a programmer
<coz_> kwwii,   he doesnt know better
<kwwii> ;)
<kwwii> now that we have a team of people interfacing things are changing
<kwwii> slowly but surely
<coz_> kwwii,  well personally..with us coming up on 10.4  it should have already changed... if mark is dragging progress down visually,,then that has to brought to his attention so he removes himself from the process
<kwwii> coz_: you would be amazed at how much we have done this time
<kwwii> ;)
<DanRabbit> coz_: my the force be with you.
<DanRabbit> may*
<kwwii> coz_: this time we sat down with him for a week of intensive direction and we are working from there
<kwwii> things are a lot more well planned than last time
<coz_> kwwii,  I hope that shows up "early" in lucid;s development
<coz_> along with a derivitive of troy's boot sequence
<kwwii> coz_: so far, our first plan for art drops is dec 15
<kwwii> ;)
<coz_> damn keyboard
<kwwii> so you'll get something new for christmas
<coz_> kwwii,  :)  well  I think the final decisions should be made by either an "art team" or the users who can..during the development phase,,comment on the graphics
<coz_> so far ...and I have been using ubuntu from the beginning and on this  community art team almost as long...although I dont know if I am still listed... I have only been slightly impressed with jaunty's wallpaper.... most of the gtk themes are wanting as well
<coz_> I dont see a direction .. a vision... in the works
 * ckontros is still surprised to see people beating this dead horse. Come on. Damn things a skeleton. Bones bleached by the sun by now.
<kwwii> hehe
<coz_> ckontros,  well the horse hasnt been born yet to beat it to death
<ckontros> coz_: Nice try but you know I refer to the subject of Marks involvement. It is what it is. It won't change. You've been here long enough to know.
<coz_> so I cant stop bringing this up... it has not happened yet...and seriously  mark and any other programmer has to be removed from the artisitc  phase
<kwwii> he will always be the "client" whether you like it or not
<kwwii> but his participation has changed over the years
<ckontros> Hahaha.
<coz_> yeah I know...but he has to be removed from the artisitc end of things or rely heavily on those that are quality artists as the final decision makers
<DanRabbit> coz_: unfortunately, at this stage, if you're basing your decision on design you need to look further than Ubuntu's default.
<DanRabbit> hopefully, Lucid or Lucid +1 or Lucid + 100 will fix that
<DanRabbit> ;)
<coz_> DanRabbit,   of course that is the hope  but it never is realized
 * ckontros shakes head. coz: Sorry man. You'll get nowhere in here. You want a change, make your own distro/theme.
<ckontros> Hell. It's kinda what I did. ;)
<coz_> ckontros,  are  you the guy that always likes to put negatives on things lol
<kwwii> coz_: many people make the mistake of thinking that ubuntu is theirs to drive, so to speak
<kwwii> wrt to artwork
<kwwii> but is really isn't
<coz_> If mark were here  I would say the same thing and try my best to convince him he has no artisitc insight
<kwwii> lol
<kwwii> I am sure that would go well
<ckontros> coz_: When appropriate, yes.
<kwwii> having struggled to work with him for years, I would not say that he does not have an artistical insight
<ckontros> But pays the bills like it or not. :)
<kwwii> but that he does not know how to explain it correctly nor the experience to combine those ideas into a realistic plan
<coz_> kwwii,  he does not  guy  at least from the perspective of seeing the end results
<kwwii> one day, when you ask me how I lost my job at canonical, it will be that sentence
<DanRabbit> lol
<coz_> :)
<coz_> kwwii,  ok that I can accept as his limitation
<coz_> welll  I just wanted to vent...I suppose.... I cannot make  water run uphill  I suppose
<coz_> I thought maybe side ways  :)
<kwwii> I think lucid will be a telling distribution
<kwwii> we have a lot of stuff ready but the question is whether we release new stuff in an LTS
<kwwii> or whether we hold it back and work on it some more
<coz_> kwwii,  of course you should
<coz_> no no holding back
<kwwii> lol
<kwwii> proving that you know nothing about what an LTS means
<coz_> kwwii,  its time now... the city of Largo florida ...the governent there has switched entirely to linux + compiz   but they chose suse over ubuntu
<coz_> kwwii,   one of the reasons is that is is always consistent  visually
<coz_> and fairly well done
<coz_> not the only reason but certainly part of the decision
<kwwii> if we could finally ever trust having compiz all the time things would be different
<kwwii> well, gl support
<kwwii> but we are still a while from that
<coz_> kwwii,  yeah but compiz isnt an "artistic" applicatoin it is just a window manager
<kwwii> I think that within less than 2 years it'll work everywhere
<coz_> kwwii,  compiz?
<kwwii> gl
<coz_> kwwii,  oh
<kwwii> it allows you to do really new stuf
<kwwii> f
<kwwii> like clutter
<kwwii> etc
<coz_> right  I agree
<coz_> although the c++ compiz coming out hopefully this christmas should make some things more reliable
<coz_> kwwii,  well again... I usually vent during the early development of the next version :)
<coz_> kwwii,  I am apparenlty always hopeful things will change :)
<coz_> i have to log off of this lucid system and get on karmic   other wise I will accidentally log off  be right back and you guys can continue  beating me up lol
<kwwii> the current plan is that whatever doesn't make it into the LTS makes it into the alpha 1 of +1
<kwwii> oops
<coz_> I have to admit...even after all these years.. I am not quite sure of the process that has to be gone through with mark to finalize anyghing visually
<coz_> anything
<kwwii> the current plan is that whatever doesn't make it into the LTS  makes it into the alpha 1 of +1
<kwwii> you might have missed that ^----^
<kwwii> trust me, you don't want to know
<kwwii> it was hardcore
<coz_> kwwii,  actually I do want to know...although not at this moment
<kwwii> lol, one day I should write a book
<coz_> kwwii,   I would definitly read that one lol
<kwwii> give me a couple more years and then I can do one
<kwwii> 7 at suse and 7 at canonical, that would be worthwhile
<coz_> kwwii,  well  but  in the meantime  ubuntu is going to suffer visually no?
<kwwii> no, not at all
<kwwii> currently we have the most well-planned release before us that we have ever had
<coz_> kwwii,  ok that's good... how do the 'grphics" fit in ot that plan though
<coz_> graphics
<coz_> and what  "weight" does that particular aspect have in the planning
<kwwii> it has the highest priority
<coz_> kwwii,  wow that surprises mne
<coz_> me
<kwwii> yepp, we have done something that I have never experienced before at a linux company
<kwwii> with novell bought suse and ximian it was close but not like this
<coz_> kwwii,  ok could you explain that to me?
<coz_> kwwii, it may cause me to not "complain" as much and maybe get more involved
<coz_> :)
<kwwii> coz_: well, in the early years the whole linux design movement was a few people working alone
<kwwii> and then we tried to get the community invovled
<kwwii> but that can't work on it's own
<coz_> kwwii,   oh I see what you mean ... I understand
<kwwii> and some companies started to look at hiring proffesionals to take over
<kwwii> but not really take over
<coz_> ok
<kwwii> so now we have a real team
<kwwii> ;)
<coz_> kwwii,  ok I clearly that part.... but how is actually on the "official art team"  and what qualifications do they have?
<coz_> not how  but rather "who"
<coz_> who is actually on the team
<kwwii> oh, we have people on our team who have done some pretty impressive stuff
<kwwii> I cannot start describing people on ir
<kwwii> c
<kwwii> :p
<coz_> kwwii,  artistically impressive stuff?
<kwwii> yepp
<coz_> kwwii,  it has not shown up in any ubuntu version as of this moment/
<kwwii> no, not really
<coz_> kwwii,  not eve close
<kwwii> a lot of the original work was not used
<kwwii> but now we have a solid plan, I think
<kwwii> and it does take a bit of time to get things up to speed
<coz_> kwwii,   mmm is there a site that actually lists the "names    of the official art team?
<kwwii> imagine hiring a whole new team of people within a year, having to change the leader half way through, etc
<ckontros> Later. Tired of reading scrollback that I've seen 100 times over 4 years. ;)
<kwwii> no but pretty soon we will be releasing a site with more info
<kwwii> I cannot really talk about that yet
<kwwii> but imgagine an informational site kinda like a blog
<coz_> kwwii,  that sounds cool  but I just wanted the names of the people on the "official art team"  so that I can research this "impressive stuff" they have done
<kwwii> I don't want to keep any secrets but I am honestly not sure if I am allowed to give out names
<kwwii> I know that in germany it might be wrong, sorry
<coz_> kwwii,  not allowed to give the names of the official team?
<coz_> that';s  odd
<kwwii> coz_: well, that is a matter of what you consider the official team
<kwwii> and I cannot define that
<coz_> kwwii,   I was educated at carnegie mellon university in fine art... i dont want you to think I am some one with no background
<coz_> kwwii,   ok I suppose the "official"  team would consist of those making the final decisions
<kwwii> well, I can give you some names...no idea if the spelling is correct though
<kwwii> mat tomaszeweski
<coz_> or at least  offereing a small choice of options for those that do make final decision
<kwwii> erm, no last e
<kwwii> tomaszewski
<kwwii> marcus haslam
<kwwii> otto greenslade
<kwwii> etc
<coz_> ok I can see if I can research any of their works
<kwwii> I am not sure of the contracts of some employees so I am unsure about listing them here
<kwwii> marcus did the Oyster card logo for the london tube system
<kwwii> for instance
<kwwii> the guy knows branding better than anyone I have ever met
<coz_> ok
<coz_> I can research this
<coz_> kwwii,  are you talking about this logo?   http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London_Underground
<kwwii> lol, no
<coz_> thank god
<coz_> :)
<kwwii> wow
<kwwii> that is pretty hard core
<kwwii> about a third of the world know that logo
<coz_> kwwii,  thanks guys :)
<kwwii> happy to help
<kwwii> time for sleep
<kwwii> see you soon
<coz_> kwwii,  sleep well guy
<kwwii> thanks, have fun
<coz_> kwwii,  ok guy    I am assuming you are in Germany?
#ubuntu-artwork 2009-12-06
<thorwil> mac_v: are you sure https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/HumanityIcons is the right place?
<mac_v> thorwil: damn you are fast ;)
<mac_v> yup
<thorwil> mac_v: Breathe is only at the top level because of ... historical reasons
<mac_v> thorwil: similar to breathe
<thorwil> should actually be in Incoming
<mac_v> thorwil: why is breathe allowed and not others? [just curious]
<mac_v> thorwil: hmm , well this isnt just for Lucid or an incoming concept
<thorwil> mac_v: it was put there before i cleaned up the wiki
<thorwil> mac_v: it has been linked to several time and it has sub-pages
<thorwil> mac_v: stuff not just for a single release does belong in Incoming
<mac_v> thorwil: BTW , as this is the default icon theme it could be at the same level as breathe , and the more important reason is I want to get the panel icons more importance , and that page is more often viewed
<mac_v> symbolic icons rather *
<mac_v> thorwil: a lot of work[artwork/code/patch apps] needs to be done for the panel icons so it would be better if it was there
<thorwil> mac_v: sure. and if anyone else has an icon theme to add, he will see 2 there already and put his right next to theme. goodbye wiki rules
<mac_v> thorwil: if you are moving breathe to incoming too  , that would be good with me too  :) ... but until its a bit weird that the default icon theme does not get a place there ;)
<thorwil> if someone else but you or Ken added that page, i would have moved it already
<mac_v> thorwil: yeah , i mention to you ahead , but you were not online :)
<thorwil> mac_v: i would really love to discuss that again with ckontros ;p
<mac_v> i wanted to*
<mac_v> thorwil: until then could we leave Humanity there too . PLS :)
<thorwil> mac_v: i won't touch it. which doesn't mean i'm at all happy with it
<mac_v> thorwil: cool. thanks...
 * mac_v afraid of thorwil's wrath ;p
<thorwil> mac_v: "Humanity is more than just art, it's design" makes me cringe. you simply shouldn't have to say something like this
<thorwil> mac_v: "Humanity is about Usability"; would be much better to replace Usability with a less wide and often misunderstood term
<mac_v> thorwil: hehe , i just copied that from the previous humanity page :)
<mac_v> that page needs better intro/description
<Equiet> Hi. I have done a mockup for my new theme. http://i49.tinypic.com/o0sadd.jpg What do you think?
<Equiet> Nothing? Hm. :(
<mac_v> Equiet: nice , looks interesting...
<mac_v> Equiet: this channel is actually often quiet , users are logged in always but chat is rare ;)
<Equiet> How can the theme get into a official release?
<mac_v> Equiet: you can add the theme to > https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Incoming/Lucid  , that doesnt necessarily get it into the official release though , if others like it , it would be considered in the community package
<mac_v> Equiet: also drop a mail to the artwork mailing list that you have added a new theme
<thorwil> hi ckontros! Breathe now has company in the form of https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/HumanityIcons
<mac_v> DanRabbit: can you improve the concept and the intro.. i just copied most of it from your previous wiki page
<ckontros> thorwil: Yep
<ckontros> Goodness. The. Wiki. Is. Slow.
<thorwil> has it ever been fast?
<ckontros> I know, I know. Just seems extra slow when I'm trying to quickly edit things.
<DanRabbit> mac_v: no problem I won't have a lot of time today, but I'll work on it :D
<mac_v> DanRabbit: hehe , ok... i started the symbolic icons guidelines and got side-tracked too ;)
<DanRabbit> awesome
<snubby> sup folks
 * snubby tips hat
<ckontros> snubby: Hello. FYI, the weekends can be pretty quiet in here. Most activity is during EU working hours.
<Equiet> Well, is there any stuff you think I could help with?
<ckontros> Equiet: If I knew your qualifications, I could better say. Though its best to look over the mailing list and see what projects are active. Makin' wallpapers is also an easy place to start.
<Equiet> Ok, I'll try it, maybe I'll finally know how to make something other than gradient in Gimp. :)
<Equiet> But, in general, I am webdesigner/webdeveloper and probably I have the feel for UIs.
<mac_v> thorwil: do you want a google wave invite?
<thorwil> mac_v: already have an account, but thanks! ;)
<mac_v> thorwil: lol , ok... just thought you didnt , since you mentioned you saw how it works only from the site :)
<mac_v> the article rather*
 * mac_v just received invites today :)
<mac_v> invitations*
 * SiDi still didnt begin using his account.
 * Equiet got an invitation, but it doesn't work in Opera.
<Equiet> For wallpapers, you prefer more abstract submissions, right?
<mac_v> Equiet: maybe you could do some mockups  , for this too > https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SoftwareCenter
<mac_v> since you mentioned UI
<Equiet> Wow, there is a lot to read. But thanks, I will try it. :)
<Equiet> Btw, are the wallpapers for alpha releases already done?
<mac_v> Equiet: kwwii  would know about that
<mac_v> Equiet: BTW , you dont have to read the whole page , but just the green sections marked for artists and designers ;)
#ubuntu-artwork 2010-12-06
<coz_> good day all
<thorwil> good morning!
<zniavre_> good morning
<zniavre_> is that the time to report theme bug for natty ?
<zniavre_> http://imgur.com/LTvwU.jpg
<zniavre_> notification-aera does the same
<zniavre_> but not indicator-"stuff"
<coz_> zniavre_, yes that is pretty ugly
<coz_> zniavre_,  try  in terminal     gnome-wm --replace & disown
<coz_> zniavre_,  see if that fixes it
<zniavre_> got a warning (in french) and it looks the same
<coz_> mm
<zniavre_> Avertissement du gestionnaire de fenÃªtresÂ : L'Ã©cran 0 sur le visuel Â«Â :0.0Â Â» a dÃ©jÃ  un gestionnaire de fenÃªtresÂ ; essayez d'utiliser l'option --replace pour remplacer le gestionnaire de fenÃªtres actuel.
<coz_> zniavre_,  mmm the --replace should have worked
<coz_> zniavre_,  do you have alt+F2  run dialog there on natty?
<zniavre_> haha i do not know how to activate the natty one
<zniavre_> it open launcher from "MY" pc
<coz_> zniavre_,  i dont think it works in natty  I had to install gmrun
<coz_> and assign alt+F3 in compiz commands for gmrun
<coz_> ooo
<coz_> zniavre_,  how did you get the panel to be so small on the left?
<zniavre_> wich one?
<coz_> zniavre_,  just below and to the left of  Capture.png
<zniavre_> its awn
<coz_> ah
<zniavre_> it's*
<coz_> :)
<coz_> I am using cairo dock here :)
<zniavre_> too many options for me
<coz_> :)
<zniavre_> ooopa baby is waking up i need to go
<zniavre_> bbl
<kwwii> hi all
<coz_> zniavre_,  I know the   gnome-wm --replace & disown in terminal should have worked...it creates a new nux context
<coz_> kwwii,  hey guy
<kwwii> hey coz_, how's things?
<coz_> kwwii,  pretty good thanks!   busy with compiz/unity and all ...how about you?
<kwwii> coz_: good to hear, unity needs a lot of love :-) things here are good, except the fact that it is snowing again
<coz_> kwwii,  snow here a well
<coz_> Weather for: Pittsburgh, PA Updated: Mon, 06 December 2010 09:07:00 GMT Conditions are: light snow mist Current temperature: 25Â°F/-4Â°C Humidity: 80% Wind: From the West â at 13 MPH Gusting to 23 MPH
<kwwii> coz_: sounds like the same weather here
<coz_> kwwii,  well its definitly winter now :)   but i really like winter so it's not a big deal for me :)
<kwwii> I think that if it is going to be cold it might as well snow as well
<coz_> ")
<zniavre_> i tought 10Â°c was cold ....
<zniavre_> :o)
<kwwii> ;-)
 * thorwil wonders how to make the most of bzr/lp to handle releases
<thorwil> vish: ah, delaying my reply has been a very good decision, as now you covered it all already! ;)
<vish> thorwil: yea, i was worried you would have replied already, and how you would reply.. ;)
<vish> hence replied your part ;p
<thorwil> lol
<thorwil> vish --simulate thorwil
<thorwil> bbl
<thorwil> vish: my turn then, i guess
<vish> .. just replied.. :p
<thorwil> heh
<thorwil> ivanka: i'm sorry about cc-spamming, but at least i won't bother you now, as you are not here
<thorwil> oh, some un-K-ing: http://dot.kde.org/2010/12/06/kde-announces-calligra-suite
<woutervddn> hooba, huge changes comming up in linux-office land..
<vish> heh, i wonder why it wasnt "Kalligra Suite"
<vish> would have been konsistent, with their kommon naming methods..
<thorwil> developing my little tools was all fun and games until installation and packaging
<troy_s> vish: Odd. Comment didn't show up.
<vish> troy_s: hmm, open id sucks ;)
<troy_s> vish: Marked as spam. Lol.
<vish> troy_s: ;p
<vish> if comment is irrecoverably lost, i'll re-post it tomorrow..
<troy_s> I have it.
<troy_s> It just needed de-flagging.
<vish> cool! :)
 * vish ZZzz...
<vish> catch you later..
#ubuntu-artwork 2010-12-07
<yao_ziyuan> i think the no.1 problem in gnome is probably the desktop icon text color. it's white and just doesn't work with light wallpapers. i found a perfect solution.
<yao_ziyuan> put a gtkrc-2.0 file in your home dir with this content: http://fpaste.org/jpvP/ . this will set your desktop icon text color to black, and put a 50%-translucent round-cornered box around the text.
<yao_ziyuan> the purpose is that whether your wallpaper is dark or light, desktop icon text will always be highly contrasted. i recommend it be a default configuration for ubuntu.
<vish> thorwil: Can we make announcement of submissions mandatory? This way the mailing list gets notified when new submissions are included. Otherwise, it needs someone to actively check the submissions on flickr.
<thorwil> vish: mandatory would mean we would have to track that and exclude submissions accordingly. not feasible, not nice
<thorwil> we sure can encourage it
<vish> thorwil: well, we can 'say' mandatory, but be flexible.. or we can say that the announced submissions would be given first preference ;)
<thorwil> what are we, politicians?
<vish> ;p
<vish> thorwil: well, like the debconf submissions, i dint know you had submitted.. until leonardo said you were the chosen one ;p
<thorwil> 2020: wikileaks leaks the vish-thorwil cables
<vish> 'the chosen one'
<thorwil> vish: that was outside ubuntu artwork
<vish> yea, but it was kinda within the realm, since the submitters were only from U-artwork..  it just seemed like no one had taken interest in the project..
<vish> thorwil: it just seems that if we announce submissions it might encourage more critiques (which might be good or bad..)
<thorwil> i admit, the thought that someone might offer critique on our list that would help me to improve the draft didn't even occur to me
<thorwil> test reader/users appreciated: http://thorwil.wordpress.com/2010/12/07/backtestground/ :)
<Schendje> thorwil: sweet, is it cool if i plug it in the fedora design meeting right now?
<Schendje> we're starting work on the next fedora wallpapers
<thorwil> Schendje: no, go on
<thorwil> Schendje: what's the channel?
<Schendje> thorwil: #fedora-design on Freenode
#ubuntu-artwork 2010-12-08
<thorwil> good morning!
<thorwil> hrmpf. more snow
<coz_> good day all
<vish> lazy thorwil ! ;p
<thorwil> :)
<thorwil> vish: thanks. wow, even the tasks page. i don't touch that one, without john it wouldn't exist or stay in existence
<vish> np.. :)
<vish> and oddly enough the dates on the tasks page did not match the dates on the specs page..
<vish> but now they do.. \o/
<thorwil> yeah, one should really avoid duplicating info the manual way
<thorwil> ivanka: good evening. do you know of color palette limitations that canonical asks derivatives to stay in?
<ivanka-train> thorwil: that is a great question
<ivanka-train> thorwil: I honestly don't know
<vish> why should canonical ask derivatives to use a certain palette?
<vish> afaik, they only deal with Ubuntu and *advice* with what they require/request..
<thorwil> ivanka-train: i have someone here who implies that this is the case
<vish> advice the derivatives i mean..
<thorwil> i would understand a "don't you dare touch our orange" policy, but otherwise?
<thorwil> hopefully this mail forwarded to me will be posted on the list, like i asked for
<ivanka-train> thorwil: what is this based on?
<ivanka-train> thorwil: if you need a serious answer I can find out
<ivanka-train> thorwil: for now, I just don't know. The fact that I don't would imply that it isn't true as I would probably have been spoken to about it
<ivanka-train> DoctorMO: hi!
<DoctorMO> hi ivanka-train, which train are you on?
<thorwil> ivanka-train: your last statement is exactly why i asked you. thanks ;)
<thorwil> and that shall be good enough for now
<ivanka-train> DoctorMO: london to brighton
<DoctorMO> thorwil: I have never heard of such a thing myself, the only colour that seems to be more off limits is the purple.
<ivanka-train> thorwil: :-)
<DoctorMO> Unless your referencing Canonical, where it makes sense.
<thorwil> DoctorMO: so today you suddenly decided you need some uppercase letters?
<DoctorMO> No, this is my traditional market capitalisation. ;-)
<thorwil> heh
#ubuntu-artwork 2010-12-09
<coz_> howdy doody
<doctormo> thorwil: Hey, can I ask a favour? I would like a poster reviewed critically. I'm so far not happy with it but I think you might be able to offer some good advice.
<thorwil> doctormo: sure
<doctormo> http://imagebin.ca/view/JpEU0f9C.html
<thorwil> doctormo: what's the target medium and size?
<doctormo> Medium: paper, wall hanging, size US double letter, aka silly size ;-)
<doctormo> It's actually called Ledger/Tabloid sized.
<doctormo> But I assume it could be reformed into A3 for other markets.
<thorwil> it just looks like it would have to be fairly large to be readable
<thorwil> it's too dense, crowded
<thorwil> the type dances way too much, especially as it looks like 3 distinct funky fonts are used?
<doctormo> thoughts on how to fix some of the issues? the main font is 18pt Ubuntu, the rest are funky I agree.
<thorwil> never use justified without hyphenation (you might get away with it on the web, but not in print)
<doctormo> I think I've been critizied more in the past for my font selection than anything else, so I defer immediatly on the issue now.
<thorwil> try to use 2 fonts only
<thorwil> shorten the text wherever you can
<thorwil> e.g., don't mention an example in text, if you have a list right next to it
<thorwil> brightness contrast between body text and background is a bit on the low side
<thorwil> try to establish sections with spacing alone (no bars for the titles)
<doctormo> I'm thinking of posting the svg http://divajutta.com/doctormo/art/foss+creative-commons.svg to the mailing list while I recharge my artfulness. Do you think anyone there would be any good at nudging it in the right direction?\
<thorwil> doctormo: except for rob oakes i'm not aware of anyone still on the list where i saw indication of layout skills
<thorwil> usually also no indication of a lack thereof. simply not layout work :)
<doctormo> I guess I'll have to come back to it myself, not all my layout work is this bad, I think I've just gotten a little tired of this one.
<doctormo> thorwil: I decided to be persistent, can you check i've incorporated all your good suggestions? http://imagebin.ca/view/EFZMHu.html
<thorwil> doctormo: better, at now it can breathe. you really should look into the use of grids in layout
<thorwil> doctormo: the result of half an hour (and i could invest several times that to get it really right): http://www.foopics.com/showfull/8dd687f66275d6fd8bb2e0cc565c2080
<thorwil> you have to imagine text flowing around the bottom left image ;)
<doctormo> nice
<thorwil> didn't care about the fonts, just cared about introducing a grid
<thorwil> i would consider to go with a single image. with this layout, in the top right
<thorwil> doctormo: i noticed you didn't use flowed text. well, you should
<doctormo> I thought I did
<thorwil> doctormo: want the file, before i go and shut off the mind-eater?
<doctormo> Email it to me so I can see your grids, I think it will give me an idea of how you do things.
<thorwil> done
<thorwil> good night! :)
#ubuntu-artwork 2010-12-10
<coz_> good day all
<vish> thorwil: hey, does the backgrounds setup install /usr/local/lib/python2.6/dist-packages/easy-install.pth  or does that exist even earlier?
<thorwil> vish: the "local" part tells us it's not from a package
<vish> thorwil: right, but is it from /your/ package?
<thorwil> vish: setuptools is what makes setup.py work. ez-install is an addition of a script called by setup.py to download what is necessary
<vish> ah, cool!
<thorwil> vish: if you installed no other python stuff the setup.py way, then yes
<vish> yea, no other one pythong stuff.. thx..
<vish>  -g
<thorwil> now writing a script that can take a "context.png" and recreate it for other resolutions will be fun
<andreasn> kwwii, ping
<kwwii> andreasn: hey
<andreasn> hi! do you have this image, but without the lines? http://wptest.gnome.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/bg.png
<andreasn> if it was you that drew it, that is :)
<kwwii> andreasn: yes, I have it as an SVG file (very large)
<kwwii> andreasn: and yes, I did make it
<andreasn> how large, like 1 GB?
<andreasn> :)
<kwwii> not that large, let me check
<kwwii> only 20mb or so
<andreasn> that's all right
<andreasn> what license does it have btw?
<kwwii> I guess it is CCbySA
<kwwii> cleaning out the file I had leaves only 2.9MB
<kwwii> :P
<andreasn> haha
<kwwii> I made it while working for canonical, but it was not an official project (ie secret) so I think it can be CCbySA
<kwwii> andreasn: do you need it for anything specific?
<andreasn> yes, for the new GNOME website. ccbysa is ok
<andreasn> I thought it was for the installer (too maybe?)
<andreasn> oh, you're not with canonical any more?
<kwwii> nope
<kwwii> since a couple of months
<kwwii> working for a small start-up near my home
<andreasn> cool, nice with stuff that are close
<kwwii> indeed
<andreasn> what does the company do?
<kwwii> well, software naturally ;-) they are writing a huge backend and front-end solution for e-commerce sites
<andreasn> cool
<thorwil> vish: "Not many had noticed this before he mentioned it" how you know? hundreds of the silent subscribers might have seen it the same way ;)
<vish> thorwil: ;p
<vish> thorwil: no one knows that.. sssh! ;)
<vish> thorwil: but still, you have a wicked eye, and i imagine very few would have noticed it.. :)
<thorwil> nah, my eye isn't wicked. it happens seldom that it goes out to town on its own
<ivanka-train> hey thorwil
<thorwil> hey ivanka-train
<ivanka-train> thorwil: I finally put together the artwork survey
<ivanka-train> but then Survey Monkey was being really annoying and I had to come and get my train
<ivanka-train> grrr
<thorwil> bad monkey
<thorwil> ivanka-train: so the survey will actually happen next week?
<ivanka-train> It actually might happen tomorrow if I take a deep breath and fight with survey monkey
<thorwil> cool
<ivanka-train> thorwil: Can you think of any alternative tools?
<thorwil> ivanka-train: the only survey i ever did was done on paper (and analyzed with ... access!)
<thorwil> i was young and needed the money
<thorwil> well ok, there was no money
<ivanka-train> thorwil: heh
<thorwil> vish: i think the potential on the list is rather low, if you want to drum up more contributors, the forum and announcements on the planet might work
<thorwil> vish: i have been wondering if we should try to invite blender and maybe processing folks to create wallpapers to our specs
<vish> thorwil: yea.. maybe..
<vish> thorwil: we should also make sure doctormo announces on deviantart
<doctormo> hel-lo
<thorwil> hola
<vish> HELLo ;)
<thorwil> vish: how to make sure? do cookies work?
<vish> thorwil: nah, poke him on irc just like how i did above.. ;)
<thorwil> vish: you are so ruthless!
<vish> thorwil: btw, i guess, he prefers biscuits (better for tea..)
<vish> s/for/with
<doctormo> It's true
#ubuntu-artwork 2010-12-11
<daanish> hey all =
<daanish> exit
<coz_> howdy doody
<thorwil> http://troy-sobotka.blogspot.com/2010/12/response-more-on-contests-and-something.html
<vish> oh!
<troy_s> Greets vish, thorwil, et al.
<vish> troy_s: hi.. just now reading your reply-post :)
 * vish still hasnt finished.. ;)
<thorwil> amazing timing! :)
 * thorwil -> dinner
<troy_s> thorwil: I can't help your timezone.
<woutervddn> we should get rid of timezones.. -_-'
<troy_s> woutervddn: I believe that is what mailing lists do.
<woutervddn> +1 ^^
<troy_s> woutervddn: New face. How are you?
<woutervddn> I'm fine, thank U
<woutervddn> how R U?
<troy_s> woutervddn: Fine thanks.
<woutervddn> ^^
<troy_s> Hark. There's kwwii too.
<troy_s> woutervddn: What brings you to the channel?
<troy_s> vish: How have things been with you?
<woutervddn> the fact that I'm also subscribed to the ML and want to be involved?
<troy_s> woutervddn: What does involvement mean to you?
<woutervddn> (and because studying for my exams is way less fun..)
<vish> been good.. thanks.
<troy_s> woutervddn: And I suppose 'why' is likely the best question.
<vish> "How many among us are so delusional as to believe there is a wealth of skilled creatives in our culture?"
<troy_s> woutervddn: What are you studying?
<troy_s> vish: Uh oh.
<vish> troy_s: thorwil was just mentioning that to me yesterday.. :)
<troy_s> vish: What? Sorry?
<troy_s> coz_: Greets friend. Did you get your work up yet?
<woutervddn> troy_s: Industrial Sciences
<vish> troy_s: regarding the artwork list <thorwil> vish: i think the potential on the list is rather low
<troy_s> woutervddn: Everyone believes that. Sadly, it seems there is a question as to "What exactly is the hidden potential people see" and the very real fact that there is a radical difference of opinion on empty terms.
<coz_> troy_s,  oh man   I knew when you got back here you would ask that :)
<troy_s> coz_: Good. Then you did it right?
<troy_s> vish: What is all this blah blah about needing a leader currently?
<coz_> troy_s,  ah   no  o0
<woutervddn> I'm not following..
<troy_s> vish: Sounds more like someone at Canonical is seeking out yet another puppet?
<troy_s> woutervddn: I mispressed it... I should have put vish there on that one.
<troy_s> woutervddn: So do you create bits?
<woutervddn> ow.. :p
<vish> troy_s: nope, canonical is not seeking out anything.. ;)
<woutervddn> I'm trying to..
<troy_s> vish: They should be.
<troy_s> vish: Seems relatively symptomatic to exactly what I expressed in my response to you, if you follow.
<woutervddn> I was an occasional ubuntu user until a month or 2
<troy_s> woutervddn: Do you have any samples of your work? I'd love to see some.
<troy_s> kwwii: You have died. Sorry to hear that.
<woutervddn> but since then I'm using ubntu for almost everything, so mastering Gimp is one of things on top of my list..
<troy_s> woutervddn: And I'm still curious as to what brings you around to the artwork mailing list and such.
<vish> troy_s: yea.. but they should but â¦ they do admit that they have not been able to utilize community design minds on Ubuntu.. atleast they know they dont attract designers ;)
<troy_s> vish: Not easy that is. For some it seems remarkably simple, for others it seems like trudgework. I personally find it quite fascinating.
<woutervddn> jeez, I don't have a to that question tbh.. what brought you here?
<troy_s> woutervddn: You are right. I am just sincerely interested.
<woutervddn> I love creating artwork, and I'm happy that there is a way to let others benefit from that..
<troy_s> woutervddn: Do you have any work up? I'd love to see it.
<woutervddn> I'm also in the ubuntu-be loco team and it's just like a good cause to me :p
<troy_s> woutervddn: (And apologies if I seemed like I was demanding an answer... I wasn't. I was just trying to see what has been drawing people into the mailing list and such... etc.)
<woutervddn> ow it didn't look like you were demanding one, I just couldn't really find an answer to it :p
<woutervddn> and I made a proposal for the artwork team logo (but I must warn you it was my first cup of Gimp)
<coz_> woutervddn,   inkscape is far easier for logos  or just about anything else compare to gimp
<woutervddn> yeah I figured now :p
<woutervddn> I'm still new to the open source alternatives..
<coz_> woutervddn, `  a photoshopper?
<woutervddn> used to be :p
<coz_> mm is that one or 2 p's ?
<troy_s> woutervddn: I'd be happy to see anything really.
<coz_> woutervddn,  troy_s  will be explicitly honest :)
<troy_s> coz_: Naw. I'm always interested to see what people have been working on around these parts.
<woutervddn> I'm really trying to commit myself to just the O-S alts. but it's hard.. :o the CS5 was just 2 clicks for retouches, here it's like 1000 clicks :p
<coz_> troy_s,  I know you are.... but also you are very honest about things ,,,which has always been nice
<woutervddn> (searching for some artwork that I have online..)
<troy_s> coz_: It's a pretty tough line to walk. I tend to think that there is sincere value in unique identity in work. When you feel an opinion, it is expressed from a place outside of that uniqueness.
<coz_> troy_s,   I completely understand
<troy_s> coz_: Appreciating work that is well crafted, despite being counter one's personal aesthetic, is a pretty hard skill to hone. I still work hard at it.
<woutervddn> I made this as a try for my wallpaper: http://img255.imageshack.us/img255/2205/tpmspeaker1.png
<troy_s> woutervddn: What is that for?
<coz_> troy_s,   ah  ..yes I see what you are saying now
<woutervddn> just my wallpaper :)
<woutervddn> I've put it up to show a friend.. :)
<troy_s> coz_: It's old sillyness really - that whole solipsistic concern with how to communicate. Is it communication or re-assertion of a frail self.
<woutervddn> but in the final version the speaker and the fabric behind the front bezel is more visible
<troy_s> woutervddn:  How do you feel about it?
<woutervddn> about the wallpaper?
<troy_s> woutervddn: yes.
<woutervddn> well let's see, the holes are a bit to wide, the fabric should show more, and overall the pattern should be way more aligned.. :)
<woutervddn> brb, food's ready..
<coz_> ah..food alwyas deserves a moment of silence
<troy_s> coz_: LOL
<coz_> :)
<darkmatter> so do farts
<coz_> :)
<woutervddn> back..
<coz_> darkmatter,  and an opened window i would suspect
<woutervddn> what do you think troy?
<troy_s> woutervddn: What I think is rather irrelevant without knowing what you intend to accomplish.
<darkmatter> coz_: that would depend on what triggered the proverbial after dinner mint ;)
<coz_> :)
<troy_s> woutervddn: And likely even more irrelevant unless you were to place value in what I would say, and for that, you should have zero reason.
<troy_s> coz_: So any new work at your end at all?
<woutervddn> I would appreciate every comment about it..
<troy_s> woutervddn: You shouldn't. That's the point.
<troy_s> woutervddn: Sorry to confuse.
<coz_> troy_s,  no   ,,, not much I would show at this point.... no time..at least that is the excuse i give myself
<woutervddn> why shouldn't I?
<troy_s> woutervddn: Hrm... imagine one person commenting. Should you follow their advice?
<troy_s> coz_: Hate. You.
<coz_> :)
<woutervddn> I would take it in mind, reflect the things he said and would look from a distance to what I made.
<coz_> everyone's a critic...listen to no one :)   just keep in mind that there is "always" more to learn
<woutervddn> If the remarks are relevant then yes I should follow their advive..
<troy_s> woutervddn: Beware of the subtle things... like pronouns. Two, why would you consider what someone would say?
<troy_s> coz_: I'd think that sits at the other side of the spectrum. Most, dare I say almost all, people listen to someone somewhere. The blurry grey line in the middle is what should be of interest however.
<woutervddn> coz_ true, but as long as there are things to learn, you should review every review about everything you've ever made.. :-)
<coz_> troy_s,  well yes ... sort of.... I would probably listen to someone ...at least pay attention to them..if I saw glimmers of new approaches to composition
<troy_s> woutervddn: The point I'd probably stress is that with a random sampling of opinion, you will inevitably end up with a truly random 'direction'. Worse if you poll a limited group without considering its consistency.
<darkmatter> or you could just be a cranky old sob like me. tell the critics to shove it and do what you intended to do in the first place ;)
<troy_s> woutervddn: For example, asking for an opinion in a computer science channel would result in a very particular take.
<troy_s> vish: I heard the sound of your head hit the keyboard. Wake up or I'll start sending thorwil over there for his dinners.
<coz_> lol
<vish> troy_s: lol.. no.. just trying to assimilate the response. :)
<troy_s> http://sethgodin.typepad.com/seths_blog/2010/12/the-answer-is-simple.html <-- Wow.
<troy_s> Wow.
<troy_s> Wow.
<troy_s> vish: Read that now darn you.
 * vish clicks.. :)
<troy_s> Mr. Godin is such a wonderful communicator it fills me with envy and jealousy.
 * woutervddn is getting himself another piece of lasagna
<coz_> mmm food
<troy_s> vish: So did you and the rest of the army make progress with the list?
<troy_s> vish: Or has it again devolved into software infrastructure?
<vish> troy_s: well, i see little hope there..  but who knows.. :)
<troy_s> vish: What is the problem?
<troy_s> (goofy question really, but...)
<darkmatter> when doesn't it devolve into software infrastructure?
<troy_s> darkmatter: Why shouldn't it?
<vish> troy_s: i tried to bring up that we need to grow a culture/community , and that we need to be able to talk about designs and the ideas that went into making the design submission.. but people think it is bringing in bureaucracy â¦
<troy_s> vish: Not quite surprising. The mailing list has an existing audience. At least the folks that post.
<vish> ;)
<troy_s> vish: That audience may very well see different needs out of a situation. Which is why I ask "What is the problem". Defining a problem goes a long way to figuring out exactly if anyone else sees one (subject of recent point to a certain extent)
<troy_s> vish: Does that make sense?
<thorwil> vish: you failed to mention the "mandatory" part of your proposal that's what got you the anti-bureaucracy response
<troy_s> thorwil: Erm? You speak in secret Ubuntu code.
<vish> ha!
<troy_s> vish: And while some would just say FORGE AHEAD, I actually think there is something entirely innovative and unique with that core issue regarding actual art, design, aesthetics. The idea that in fact, if the people from all over the world sat down and discussed art and such, that there would be _radically_ different viewpoints.
<troy_s> vish: (Even if the topic stayed _strictly_ within that domain)
<vish> thorwil: well, people dint have to announce it themselves, but meh.. even you dint reply ;p
<thorwil> troy_s: vish proposed to make it mandatory that submissions to the flickr pools be announced on the list (please just skip the word "submission" and look past the mentioning of specific infrastructure ;p
<troy_s> HELP
<vish> if it is really that hard for an artist to express what he is trying to convey with the design.. is there really an underlying idea..?
<troy_s> thorwil: Ah... the wonderful world of absolutist freedom rearing its ugly head?
<troy_s> vish: Erk. Fantastic question. Maybe the work is an endpoint. Hard to figure out the trip without looking at the starting point too?
<thorwil> vish: i absolutely want people to become clear and to express what they are trying to achieve
<troy_s> vish: How would you analyze... an IRC message?
<thorwil> vish: just that mandatory part doesn't fly
<vish> thorwil: well, if we dont say 'mandatory' then no one will even try.. ;)
<troy_s> à¤à¤¸ à¤¬à¥à¤°à¥ à¤à¤¨à¥à¤µà¤¾à¤¦.
<thorwil> æ¼¢å ¡å
<woutervddn> now that's secret ubuntu language (o_O')
<troy_s> thorwil: Might look like a failure to express an idea.
<troy_s> thorwil: If you follow me.
<thorwil> troy_s: no
<vish> thorwil: actually you can clear it up and break the tie.. ;p
<thorwil> vish: i just said "hamburger"
<vish> thorwil: dint you just eat ? ;p
<troy_s> vish: If you and I agree that the whole of art / design is as Glaser said, is communication, we probably need to frame the language.
<woutervddn> food is one of the things that makes everyone happy..
<thorwil> models?
<troy_s> woutervddn: Unless you have been starved for a long, long time, at which point your body will reject the food.
<troy_s> thorwil: ?
<thorwil> troy_s: the same you said, basically, just more specific
<thorwil> fashion models
<troy_s> vish: So what is the problem with the list?
<troy_s> thorwil: You too.
<troy_s> Erm... 'problem'.
<troy_s> (Because obviously there is no singular agreement clearly)
<vish> there isnt just one problem.. :)
<thorwil> vish and i tend to agree on quite a bit. if not, we havn't talked about enough, yet ^^
<woutervddn> then you guys should get married? :s
<thorwil> woutervddn: we are not into long distance relationships
<vish> woutervddn: we already did spend a week together.. ;)
<woutervddn> lol vish just solved your problem thorwil :p
<troy_s> vish: Which is why I asked woutervddn why they (he/she?) joined the list. What were the expectations.
<woutervddn> he..
<troy_s> Seeing things from new eyes is interesting. Figuring out who is showing up and why.
<vish> troy_s: exactly! i guess people who join the list have a larger expectation on what they can do in Ubuntu design/art
<woutervddn> well someone out here did make it clear to me that I shouldn't expect that the next default wallpaper of ubuntu will be mine :p
<troy_s> vish: Because if the list, the infrastructure, etc., isn't attracting the audience desired, there is a fundamental potential problem here.
<thorwil> oh, those dream-crashers!
<troy_s> woutervddn: Why would you want to be the author of the wallpaper?
<woutervddn> wasn't it you who told me thorwil? :p
<troy_s> woutervddn: Charity?
<troy_s> woutervddn: Ego?
<troy_s> woutervddn: That's what I'd love to hear.
<woutervddn> :p just an example troy_s :p
<thorwil> woutervddn: i'm shocked, shocked, i tell you, at the things this thorwil does
<woutervddn> XD
<troy_s> woutervddn: I think it is an entirely valid one however.
<vish> yea, iirc woutervddn was a bit pissed that Ubuntu design was not open enough ;)
<troy_s> woutervddn: Which is why I ask. It would obviously be nigh on impossible for me to expect you to answer it with 100% honesty, but even still.
<troy_s> vish: Really?
<woutervddn> I wasn't pissed.. :p
<troy_s> woutervddn: What would you see as being ideal?
<vish> troy_s: yea, i think it was after the last 'meeting' that it hit woutervddn that the process was not as open as other aspects of Ubuntu.. ;)
<woutervddn> troy_s: that what is ideal?
<troy_s> vish: Can a pencil sketch be open? Something _that_ simple. Imagine if you, myself, and thorwil took it upon ourselves to trade brush strokes. First you, then me, then thorwil.
<troy_s> woutervddn: I'm asking you darn it!
<troy_s> woutervddn: What, given the keys to the kingdom, would you change? Why?
<woutervddn> hmm.. lets see..
<vish> woutervddn: only 3 wishes !
<vish> ;p
<woutervddn> @vish darn.. :(
<troy_s> woutervddn: I'll give you unlimited. But you need to say something.
<troy_s> ;)
<darkmatter> I'll make the first wish for you!
<troy_s> darkmatter: Go. I'll listen.
<woutervddn> ok, go ahead..
<troy_s> woutervddn: You shrugged that off.
<troy_s> vish: See an issue?
<woutervddn> well, just as I was saying after the last meeting, the design team should be open to the artwork team.
<darkmatter> troy_s: actually. it would require an essay, since it's not just UX, but technical crap as well ;)
<troy_s> woutervddn: So if you were assembling chefs to cook a meal, you would explicitly want it to be open to everyone that showed up prior to the banquet?
<troy_s> darkmatter: Bzzt. Lame answer. How about _one_ single thing.;
<woutervddn> no, but let me finish :p damn you..
<vish> troy_s: not many know what the issue is. :)
<troy_s> vish: Oh they do. But sadly it is myriad different.
<woutervddn> open as in: they should not hold info to themselves that can cause us to do a lot of work for nothing..
<vish> well, the issue does get clearer after thorwil tramples on their hopes/dreams.. ;)
<thorwil> what if there's a cook hired by someone with damaged taste-buds, who likes ketchup to everything?
<troy_s> vish: And equally sadly appears to be an inability to see that a _healthy_ culture would _also_ have that core difference.
<troy_s> thorwil: Or perhaps a cultural taste?
<woutervddn> thorwil: then you have a problem :p
<troy_s> (I'd also add that while all of this might seem totally frustrating to the point of distraction, I will say beyond a shadow of a doubt that the issues we are discussing here would _not_ have been discussed five years ago. That, in some way, is a hell of a lot of progress.)
<woutervddn> btw, what was it that you were complaining about after the last meeting..
<troy_s> woutervddn: So they should be open so that you don't waste time creating something?
<thorwil> one might wish for a chance that the best cook gets to do the main course
<vish> yay! progress!
<troy_s> thorwil: Yikes. Who decides the best cook?
<troy_s> thorwil: And what is best?
<troy_s> thorwil: Surely at McDonald's they have a best cook. As they likely do at a five star hotel in Paris.
<troy_s> thorwil: And each, shockingly, _is_ best_ given the context.
<woutervddn> troy you are missing the point..
<troy_s> woutervddn: Sorry. It is possible.
<troy_s> woutervddn: Dare I say inevitable. Could you explain the point please?
<thorwil> troy_s: as always, best needs no further definition. it works the same way as with usable and beautiful ;p
<troy_s> thorwil: Amen my friend.
<troy_s> thorwil: And that too is progress.
<troy_s> thorwil: Or ... elegant.
<woutervddn> if there would be more communication between the design team and some of those who are deeply involved in the artwork team that would make a lot of things clear..
<troy_s> ;)
<troy_s> woutervddn: Wait. Show me one instance as to who they should listen to.
<troy_s> woutervddn: And what is to be gained?
<troy_s> woutervddn: Fair?
<woutervddn> how do you mean?
<troy_s> woutervddn: Why. Why should they?
<darkmatter> troy_s: how about using compositing when it's working instead of depending on it? the move to compiz is a plus, since clutter is still an immature kludge. but as a general rule (not just uby, but nix as a whole) hardcoding a dependency on compositing is bad. dun wanna get into the specific issues regarding x, various drivers, etc (they're well documented, I'll let you read up on them on your own).
<thorwil> woutervddn: what the design team has to do and what the community likes to do lead to quite different angles
<troy_s> woutervddn: Where is the gain? Is there a gain for Canonical? Is there a gain for the Community?
<woutervddn> thorwil, I can understand that..
<troy_s> I see neither.
<woutervddn> well, if canonical doesn't gain anything with the artwork team then why should they keep it?
<troy_s> woutervddn: Again, if you and I sat down with a pencil and exchanged pencil strokes on a simple 8x10.5 piece of paper, is there any reason to believe that the output would be appealing to _any_ audience?
<troy_s> woutervddn: "they"?
<troy_s> woutervddn: The Ubuntu Art team was founded by a community member long long ago.
<woutervddn> canonical
<troy_s> woutervddn: It is neither Canonical's creation nor their responsibility to curate.
<thorwil> troy_s: where you around at the time? do you more about how it came about?
<troy_s> woutervddn: It is _especially_ not their responsibility to console i'mma-wanta-maka-somfin-for-the-Ubuntoo types.
<troy_s> thorwil: I believe the art team was more or less set forth by Volvoguy.
<coz_> wow I dont remember that
<thorwil> http://www.volvoguy.net/ ?
<troy_s> coz_: Might have been before your time?
<troy_s> thorwil: I believe so. ;)
<coz_> troy_s,  possibly  although I was probably wasnt paying attention
<thorwil> first time i hear that nick
<troy_s> thorwil: http://www.volvoguy.net/ubuntu/
<darkmatter> more resources dedicated to making a unified environment that actually gives a unified and predictable end user experience instead of countless fallbacks. better in both the short and long run. short/long run: more resources dedicated to a singular aspect instead of having to continue supporting the obsolete (that's also of great benefit in dealing with problems as they arise at the user level. not having to support a bazillion differ
<troy_s> thorwil: I _may_ be mistaken.
<troy_s> darkmatter: What if you designed with constraints?
<darkmatter> troy_s: shall I continue babbling, going into greater detail, including specifics, or does that sate your curiosity? ;P
<woutervddn> troy_s: do you think there is a gain for canonical in the artwork team?
<troy_s> darkmatter: What if you let go of worrying about a bazillion different things and focused on one.
<troy_s> woutervddn: As it stands now? Hell no.
<troy_s> woutervddn: It's nothing more than a PR campaign.
<woutervddn> then why should they keep alowing it?
<troy_s> woutervddn: And a weak one.
<troy_s> woutervddn: Because you are using a term that is a little ... shallow. Allow?
<woutervddn> (as much as this might sound weird I must say, glad that you said it..)
<thorwil> woutervddn: letting it run is much cheaper
<troy_s> woutervddn: Imagine if Ivanka came here and banished this channel and the mailing list?
<thorwil> most delightful outrage!
<troy_s> woutervddn: And second, without someone creating a pencil and paper there would be even less of a chance of a drawing.
<darkmatter> troy_s: that's what I just said (you're failing at multitasking convos today :P)
<woutervddn> troy_s you have just confirmed my point :p
<troy_s> woutervddn: The opportunities for compelling work are all around us. When someone creates something that tickles an emotion in us, how often do we go "Why didn't I think of that"?
<woutervddn> a lot..
<troy_s> darkmatter: I was actually saying skip out on that.
<troy_s> darkmatter: I don't believe any of that is relevant _at all_.
<woutervddn> but if canonical doesn't have any gain, and it doesn't see gain in the futur.. well, then I'm happy to accept Ivanka's ban-message..
<woutervddn> ofcourse that would create an outrage..
<troy_s> woutervddn: You would be one of the few. But let's ignore that for a second. What would you do if they invested heavily in it?
<troy_s> woutervddn: What does _that_ scenario look like?
<woutervddn> what do you mean with invest?
<troy_s> woutervddn: Well... took a vested interest in the list.
<troy_s> woutervddn: (Beyond a 'hey we did the big brush strokes, can you fill in the details here and there for us?)
<woutervddn> I think that would trigger action from a lot of ubuntu users to join this team.
<woutervddn> to go and create things..
<woutervddn> ofcourse a whole lot of them would be crap..
<troy_s> vish / thorwil: https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-art/2005-July/000008.html
<thorwil> and then we need a zoo for the things
<troy_s> woutervddn: Do we want "a lot of ubuntu users"?
<woutervddn> but face it, how did you start out? if you were to look at your first design ever, you'd see it was crap to..
<troy_s> woutervddn: Wow. Entirely different question. One, I still create crap. Two, the list as an educational device is only as good as those on it.
<woutervddn> with every extra member who's designing for the team we have a bigger change of finding the diamonds..
<woutervddn> point is that canonical shouldn't abuse us as a PR campaign..
<woutervddn> if they do that it is up to us to stop that..
<troy_s> vish / thorwil: If you look back at that list, one or two "Wtf are they doing on an artwork mailing list" names should jump out.
<troy_s> woutervddn: Um... wait. The list is just a mailing list. Birds of a feather in an ideal world. Idle pot shots from script kiddies cum artists and designers in a worst.
<vish> woutervddn: firstly.. there are not many /deeply/ involved in Ubuntu, most of the design/art was done by the Canonical team and they were always doing it â¦ and people interested in helping/supporting were in the artwork list.
<troy_s> vish: Indeed. Few realize that Mark privately funded _everything_ they saw.
<troy_s> vish: Including every single misstep.
<troy_s> vish: Including every single misstep now.
<darkmatter> troy_s: and I'm not about to explain why it _is_ relevant unless you're paying me to do so. this is a software industry my dear boy, design and engineering are _not_ separate entities regardless of popular opinion :)
<troy_s> darkmatter: I'll pay you in fish for that is all a seagull deserves.
<troy_s> ;)
<vish> woutervddn: the one part which is not Canonical, is Humanity.. which is where I just got lucky and they do communicate what they need..
<troy_s> vish: And prior to that, the rounded icons were designed by Icon Factory.
<woutervddn> vish and troy_s: I'm not saying canonical is a bad thing or something..
<vish> troy_s: human? oh! Icon factory.. that too might have been commissioned by Canonical , right?
<troy_s> woutervddn: I could care if they were. I'd rather that the people that joined a blasted mailing list with _art_ in the title had some sort of vague and ephemeral interest in art.
<troy_s> lol
<troy_s> vish: Correct.
<woutervddn> troy_s true.. :p
<troy_s> vish: So while there seems to be much willingness to create self loathing toward the community or failure thereof, _almost all_ of the failure can be directly attributed to...
<vish> ;p
<troy_s> And, even the word 'failure' is subject to criticism. As to define it we would immediately be defining success. On that, as a community within and a world looking from the outside in, have radically different opinions.
<troy_s> vish: Sadly, as part of that 'culture' thing, those that value it try to seek out its history. Those that don't... don't.
<troy_s> vish: There was an archives section up on the Wiki at one point.
<troy_s> vish: It would have been nice to have more of that information aggregated.
<thorwil> still exists
<troy_s> thorwil: You lurker you.
<thorwil> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Archives
<troy_s> thorwil: Oh wow... that's fantastic.
<vish> he just has loads of wikifu ;p
<troy_s> vish: He does. He is a wikifreak.
<troy_s> vish: So is it correct that Mat T is gone now?
<thorwil> and i hate the wiki
<vish> troy_s: seems so...
<troy_s> thorwil: LOL. You have likely gone from 'oh this is tolerable' to 'oh this is a job' at that point.
<thorwil> troy_s: exactly
<troy_s> woutervddn: So you still haven't suggested what you would do with the keys to the kingdom and why. I'm still interested to hear it. I don't want you to be defensive either. I am curious as to what you would say.
<thorwil> a problem independent of the tool is that people ignore most of what's there, anyway
<troy_s> thorwil: Some do.
<woutervddn> if I had the keys.. that's hard to say...
<thorwil> woutervddn: beware, troy_s only asks for answers so he can generate even more questions!
<troy_s> thorwil: True that. I'm still trying to figure this out.
<troy_s> vish: Any icon news?
<woutervddn> so he's like  that anoying philosoraptor on 4chan?
<troy_s> vish: I was saddened to hear that Canonical is worried about creating an icon set.
<troy_s> woutervddn: Annoying yes. Not nearly as interesting.
<vish> troy_s: yup.. they are still writing a spec and might call for concept submissions
<troy_s> vish: Ugh.
<woutervddn> troy_s: I'd probably do close to everything as it is done now..
<vish> troy_s: they did try to commission the 'yellow icon' guy , but it looks like that dint goo too well
<vish> go*
<troy_s> woutervddn: And end up precisely where we are then?
<troy_s> vish: Oh link!
<vish> evaraldo?
<troy_s> vish: Oh... Everaldo.
<thorwil> vish: yellow icon guy?
<vish> yup,  Everaldo.
<troy_s> vish: Yeah I think he has moved on. There is a fascinating story there to be certain. He was spurned by the culture I think.
<woutervddn> But I won't put on my website: "get involved, join the artwork team" when I think it is a worthless group with no future..
<troy_s> vish: Commissions don't build a culture. Without a culture, the chances you will attract folks that give a damn _and_ happen to have skills to execute is about zero.
<troy_s> vish: I know we all like to think (foolishly) that this is about money. It isn't.
<thorwil> woutervddn: why do you think much of the activity of late has been about wallpapers for xubuntu and edubuntu and lubuntu?
<troy_s> vish: Money can certainly facilitate something, but it can't bring passion and dedication.
<vish> troy_s: nothing official i believe, but it was more evaraldo tweeting that he had meetings with Canonical and stuff..
 * thorwil can't buy things from his passion
<woutervddn> thorwil, why is that?
<vish> i mean, nothing officially announced..
<thorwil> woutervddn: because it's a case of the community for the community
<vish> troy_s: they probably dint like the concepts he offered
<troy_s> vish: Odd that. ;)
<troy_s> vish: You are only as good as your creative director.
<vish> lol!
<woutervddn> thorwil, so you are saying that..
<troy_s> vish: No matter... icons are dead. It blows me away that we are a decade behind with our thinking.
<troy_s> vish: A FULL decade.
<vish> woutervddn: Xubuntu dint even know until this cycle that there was an artwork team.. ;)
<troy_s> vish: That's because no one sticks around long enough with these projects to carry a torch apparently. And if they do, they certainly don't set up infrastructure to pass it on and disseminate the information.
<thorwil> woutervddn: not having canonical in the equation gives us control. or them, but those them are just other like us
<woutervddn> vish: what?
<troy_s> That rather lively debate about contests on the LibreOffice mailing list would probably be "GREAT IDEA" if it weren't for two of the old schoolers that said "Uh no, we tried it and it stunk"
<vish> troy_s: yea. they have Unity to build upon, they can do a lot of interesting work.. they have hired the compiz developer..  but not sure what will result..
<troy_s> vish: Vision first.
<troy_s> vish: It ain't there.
<vish> :)
<woutervddn> thorwil well isn't that a shame?
<troy_s> vish: You can't build a building without a blueprint.
<troy_s> vish: If there is a blueprint, it is pretty poorly communicated or trapped in someone's head as "I have a blueprint, I swear it, you all just need to be patient."
<thorwil> troy_s: that vote-for-a-logo thing reared it's ugly head again just recently. there must be an army of ignorant people out there
<vish> woutervddn: yup.. Xubuntu leads dealt with artwork on their devel mailing list and dint know about the artwork team.. I mentioned it to them and then they joined here and now work is going on..
<troy_s> thorwil: Well... it's a new concept. It might take time.
<vish> DEMOCRACY!!!
<troy_s> thorwil: Those two people on the LibreOffice list that voiced their _experience_ are invaluable. Developers that say "Wait, it didn't work out that way"
<troy_s> I mean seriously... just go to 99designs and see how all of this fantastic group sourcing is working.
<thorwil> troy_s: when Mark contacted me about a potential job, he asked me for my "vision of desktop linux" or something like that
<troy_s> Sadly, while almost all of it is infinitely better than the "I'm not an artist or anything but here is my wallpaper" attempts, it is still a far cry from anything even close to what the likes of Nintendo, BMW, etc. are doing.
<vish> ha, LibO !
<thorwil> i would think who got that job must have had one, too
<woutervddn> thorwil, if we can only do things if we remove canonical from the equation, then why are we carrying the first U in our name?
<troy_s> thorwil: It's called Unity.
<vish> thorwil: this was back when?
<troy_s> woutervddn: Because being aligned under a banner doesn't hurt I suppose.
<thorwil> woutervddn: do i have to explain the differewnce betwenn ubuntu and canonical?
<woutervddn> lol no, I understand the difference :p
<thorwil> vish: 2008-07-04
<troy_s> woutervddn: But I might agree with you too, to be honest. I think the numbers of people that come to the table with _actual skills_ and _actual passion_ are so few in the entire culture that segmenting is likely sad.
<troy_s> woutervddn: And bear in mind that much of this 'new age mumbo jumbo' flies in the face of the old guard that seeks to keepjobs.
<troy_s> woutervddn: Cycling from one free software project to the next.
<troy_s> afk for a second.
<woutervddn> thorwil: no, but you'll never get ubuntu without canonical in the equation..
<woutervddn> or can you?
<thorwil> troy_s: good thing you have such an high opinion of other groups, like the gnome and fedora folks. makes working across borders much easier
<thorwil> woutervddn: a lot happens without and outside of the control of canonical
<thorwil> maybe it's actually like a pair of leeches, sucking off each other ^^
<troy_s> back
<woutervddn> wb
<woutervddn> lol
<troy_s> woutervddn: I think worrying about Canonical is not worth a shred of time.
<vish> woutervddn: FYI, Ubuntu is not forced to use Canonical work, but do we have a competent group providing an alternative?
<troy_s> thorwil: It isn't really an opinion of worth, but rather the fact that it seems there are so few numbers.
<troy_s> vish: Bingo.
<troy_s> vish: Now see, _that_ is interesting because I don't think it has _ever_ been discussed.
<woutervddn> indeed, and why is that vish?
<troy_s> vish: It touches on something that you and I and thorwil may have talked about in passing.
<woutervddn> btw, vish,thorwil,troy_s: in 1 sentence what is the job of the artwork team (as far as Ubuntu goes (not xubuntu,kubuntu,...))
<vish> woutervddn: no job.. ;)
<vish> seriously^
<woutervddn> then why are you here?
<vish> Kubuntu does not need anything, it uses everything from upstream..
<troy_s> vish: And having been around the community for a while, there clearly isn't the ability to flesh out larger problems as the education (the concept that all of this is darn relative and shifts through time) is far too slight. At least, there were _not_ enough people to understand that way back when.
<troy_s> woutervddn: There is no job. Output is secondary.
<troy_s> woutervddn: Or at least it SHOULD be.
<troy_s> (Wacky statement, I know)
<troy_s> Yikes. Apologies. I killed the conversation.
<coz_> welll food time for me   I will lurk
<woutervddn> :p
<vish> nah..
<thorwil> woutervddn: there's only "The Ubuntu Artwork team and mailing list serves as a get-together for people who create artwork with and/or for Ubuntu (including the derivatives). Besides great visual design, our interests include the use of Free Software and open processes to get there."
<woutervddn> now that was the answer I was looking for :p
<thorwil> woutervddn: that statement came to be after several iterations and the insight gained over years
<troy_s> vish: I wish that of the 1090 mailing list subscribers there would be response on questions like "What is the biggest success of the Ua team? Why? What is the biggest failure? Why?"
<woutervddn> 1090 is way to big.. :s atleast if you look at what's done..
<vish> heh.. Utopia!
<troy_s> woutervddn: I'd be happy for less 'done' and more sincere conversation.
<thorwil> lest close the list and make a new one, where you can only join, if you solve a special design captcha :}
<troy_s> woutervddn: The 'done' is likely because of the audience that has been attracted.
<woutervddn> +1 for thorwil
<troy_s> thorwil: LOL.
<vish> thorwil: we did try , but john doesnt allow us! ;p
 * vish reminded of the Open letter! ;p
<troy_s> Open Letter?
<woutervddn> anyways so I can summarize like this: the artwork team is just an optional input line for ubuntu. We do what they ask us to do, although they ask most of the things to canonical.
<troy_s> I still wonder how anyone feels _any_ right to speak on the list at all.
<thorwil> woutervddn: not quite
<woutervddn> how's that thorwil?
<troy_s> woutervddn: Names.
<thorwil> woutervddn: there's no ubuntu asking canonical
<troy_s> woutervddn: The strength of a DaVinci, a Pollock, a Glaser, a Zapf, is in the person.
<thorwil> woutervddn: there's only canonical shaping ubuntu
<troy_s> woutervddn: Not a we.
<vish> troy_s: https://blueprints.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/other-design-n-reinvigorate-artwork-team , there was a part where i had mentioned that if the team has no purpose, we should close it. ;)
<woutervddn> <vish> woutervddn: FYI, Ubuntu is not forced to use Canonical work, but do we have a competent group providing an alternative?
<thorwil> troy_s: don't forget things like the bauhaus, or the blue group, or any other important collective
<troy_s> woutervddn: Facelessness (and the techniques that further that such as contests) have, arguably, gotten this culture _zero_. Less than 1% of anything is, while monumental given the roots, nothing in the greater scheme of influence.
<troy_s> thorwil: Ok... complicate it damn you.
<thorwil> :)
<troy_s> thorwil: So much for golden rules. Again. :)
<vish> troy_s: after that session, john wrote an open letter Â» https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-art/2010-October/012427.html
<troy_s> thorwil: Congrats on being perhaps the third person to ever say Bauhaus in this channel.
<thorwil> now wouldn't the rock if *we* could have our own distributed bauhaus?
<troy_s> thorwil: I'll up you an El Lissitzsky
<troy_s> thorwil: It's a movement.
<troy_s> thorwil: Movements are tricky as, from what I have gleaned, there is 'agreement' between members (see Cubist, see Surrealist, etc.)
<troy_s> thorwil: With a united cause (see DIY or Constructivism / Suprematism)
<troy_s> thorwil: With a _reason_. The why.
<troy_s> thorwil: And you know what is sad Thor?
<thorwil> of course you need agreement. but also open questions and some friction, or nothing happens
<thorwil> troy_s: that few ever ask for the why
<troy_s> thorwil: The _fuel_ for that movement is there. It has always been there. Instead though, we peddle 'Hey it costs nothing!" (even though competing operating systems are effectively free in Eurowestern terms)
<troy_s> thorwil: The _libre_ component of Free Software is as powerful an artistic motivator as any.
<troy_s> thorwil: The why. What does the Louvre look like filled with .PSDs? What does cinema look like filled with ProRes?
<troy_s> vish: I wonder if we sat down and developed a huge constraint sandbox.
<troy_s> vish: A theoretical project.
<vish> oooh!
<troy_s> vish: To create work on ... sort of a Dribbble of speculative fiction.
<troy_s> (The good spec work, not the nasty)
<troy_s> vish: I wonder what it would look like.
<woutervddn> when I look at everything I can only think about 1 thing.. Clutter!
<troy_s> woutervddn: The library or junk?
<darkmatter> the library is junk ;)
<woutervddn> junk..
<vish> haha!
<troy_s> woutervddn: Clutter is a means sometimes. Postmodernism is about clutter in some instances. Is Postmodernism junk? I'd hope the answer was no.
<troy_s> woutervddn: Contextual weapons.
<woutervddn> troy, for 1 sec, stop being abstract :p
<troy_s> woutervddn: I'm not.
<troy_s> woutervddn: I'm just saying that your belief of what you see as 'clutter' isn't shared and absolute.
<troy_s> woutervddn: If you were to attempt to define it at all.
<woutervddn> and I am aware of that, that's why I said > I <    was       > Thinking <    about it.. :)
<woutervddn> I know you may not share my idea about that..
<troy_s> woutervddn: I think part of it is precisely that quote of Godin's - seeking simplicity is something that those that don't care about do.
<troy_s> woutervddn: Thinking about those things is damn healthy.
<woutervddn> Today we face ourselves at a point where even those in this group start asking there-selves what the value of this group is.
<vish> thorwil: if announcement is no mandatory, how would you suggest it be?
<vish> not*
<woutervddn> en yet I see this group having less consistency then the number pi..
<thorwil> vish: *encouraged*
<troy_s> Who cares?
<troy_s> Why can't the sorts of discussions we just had appear on the list?
<troy_s> Why not start by not caring?
<coz_> good question
<thorwil> lets post a log! muhahawha!
<vish> yea!
<troy_s> You too coz_
<troy_s> coz_: Few know that you are one of the more talented artists around these parts.
<troy_s> coz_: And that is a shame.
<coz_> troy_s,  I appreciate that  ...
<vish> thorwil: hmm.. something stronger than encouraged.. maybe "recommended" ?
<coz_> troy_s,   you know...but sometimes..in all honesty I think " what the hell's the use"
<troy_s> coz_: It also means tolerance though. We are all pretty intolerant at times. Perhaps after we have passed through the tunnel of crusty kurmudgeon, we arrive at a place with a little more tolerance.
<vish> coz_: ++
<thorwil> vish: "most highly recommended. by vish, no less!"
<vish> ;p
<troy_s> coz_: The use is exactly what we are talking about. We shouldn't care about icons.
<troy_s> coz_: We should care about the people that create things and why. And celebrate them where individuals feel they should.
<darkmatter> coz_: at least you're not turning into a jaded nihilist like me ;)
<troy_s> That's too easy really.
<thorwil> troy_s: tolerance might be poison
<coz_> darkmatter,  not yet :)
<vish> hei..! i'm considering being a nihilist  ;)
<troy_s> thorwil: Make no mistake, I am all for chastising and ostracizing individuals of little merit and large vocal opinion that has no place.
<woutervddn> lol
<coz_> well on that note... I am going to take a break for sure...
<coz_> I will log your conversation from my other system :)
<troy_s> thorwil: One single individual in a crowd of like minded folks can disperse them.
<troy_s> thorwil: And as such, that tolerance should not be treated lightly.
<coz_> troy_s,  I like that one
<thorwil> public announcement: finally a success for the ubuntu artwork effort: vish becomes a nihilist!
<vish> \o/
<troy_s> coz_: The good ideas of the folks with little merit, clue, passion, dedication, and understanding should be tolerated about as long as their dedication to the craft.
<darkmatter> troy_s: you're being far to lenient ;D
<troy_s> Where zero dedication to the realm is offered, zero tolerance should be shown.
<troy_s> darkmatter: Well ... it is perhaps getting closer to a time of progress.
<thorwil> "but but, they are all like little snowflakes, each one unique and beautiful in their own way!" "yeah, that's why we embrace the snowflakes warmly"
<darkmatter> lol
<woutervddn> tell that to the people who were in paris 3 days ago.. -_-
<troy_s> woutervddn: Who was in Paris?
<troy_s> It is something everyone that has spent a while contemplating this should understand.
<woutervddn> a whole bunch of people spending there night in there car after it started snowing (12 hours earlier)..
<troy_s> A _single_ attitude that is repugnant or intolerable to a given audience will scatter that audience.
<thorwil> reminds me of the talk about sexism during free software related conferences. including uds, interestingly
<troy_s> thorwil: Indeed.
<woutervddn> wth..
<thorwil> maybe ubuntu-artwork should function more like ubuntu-women? ^^
<troy_s> thorwil: And in fact there is likely a good deal of overlap.
<woutervddn> thorwil: how do they function?
<troy_s> thorwil: I think the question of audience is core obviously. How do we attract an audience? Why do we want to? Do we value it? Why?
<thorwil> woutervddn: i think it's aiming at acceptance and equality by highlighting a minority and asking for special treatment for it
<troy_s> thorwil: This whole Utopian Absolutist Freedom agenda is effectively anarchy. It is a tribal society I don't care to exist in. I also don't believe in Totalitarianism either though. So striking that balance is something that I can't help but believe starts and ends with the culture. The _particular_ community.
<thorwil> oh boy, what did i write there? ^^
<troy_s> thorwil: Well... we are a culture in motion. We will continue that way unless drastic energy is put forth. Not in producing icons or wallpapers, but rather one of understanding that we seek to grow a particular type of culture.
<darkmatter> thorwil: the truth? :P
 * thorwil wonders how many kiddies troy_s could utterly confuse at once
<troy_s> thorwil: That cruft is all byproducts.
<thorwil> darkmatter: the fun is, while that could be seen as criticism, i actually think it can work out, long term
<troy_s> thorwil: As you and I and _EVERY_ single person in this channel knows, _anyone_ can produce a wallpaper.
<troy_s> It doesn't appear to be a goal. Nor should it.
<woutervddn> he confuses me all the time.. :=s
<troy_s> It is interesting the maturity that this channel has evolved into.
<troy_s> woutervddn: Hang in there. You aren't the first to say that. You likely won't be the last.
<thorwil> the immaturity, is interesting, too
<troy_s> woutervddn: I'd also hope that you think for yourself. I could just as easily be a charlatan speaking with an secret ulterior motive.
<troy_s> thorwil: It is progress I think.
<troy_s> thorwil: Learnt the hard way.
 * woutervddn wonders how many people allready hopped away from this group because of all the heavy talk of troy..
<thorwil> yeah, actually troy_s is an fbi chill who only wants to keep us from reading wikileaks!!!
<troy_s> thorwil: There is much to be said for the inability to teach anything. I certainly have learnt nothing except by those talented enough to lead me to learning for myself. Being taught is passive. Learning is active. I tend to believe in the latter.
<troy_s> woutervddn: I'd celebrate if that were the case.
<thorwil> woutervddn: i doubt this has ever been a large channel. and troy isn't on the list anymore since ... long
<darkmatter> oh dear. someone mentioned wikileaks. time to bash my head into a wall
<troy_s> woutervddn: I don't want everyone to engage in art and design discussions.
<troy_s> woutervddn: Exclusion is critical.
<thorwil> darkmatter: why do i have the feeling it wouldn't be the first time ;p
<darkmatter> :P
<troy_s> Anywho... damn fascinating chat. Thanks all. I must be tuning out.
<troy_s> I wish the mailing list were more like this.
<woutervddn> troy_s, then make it happen..
<troy_s> woutervddn: It isn't my place. I have long since left that thing.
<troy_s> woutervddn: Too many others of alternate minds that repulse me there. Or at least there were.
<woutervddn> revolution never happens without one to clear the road..
<woutervddn> well it might help if there was a clear mission statement for the artwork group..
<woutervddn> that way everyone would know what was expected and unity would be among us..
<troy_s> woutervddn: I think there is progress being made. It likely doesn't look like it to many. Getting to the bottom has probably fuelled the process.
<troy_s> woutervddn: Mission statements, wikis, software, etc. do nothing. People.
<woutervddn> people need leadership
<troy_s> woutervddn: It's a coffee shop.
<woutervddn> how's that?
<troy_s> woutervddn: Probably agree, although things will carry on without it.
<troy_s> woutervddn: It's a coffee shop. People of like minds will gravitate to each other.
<troy_s> woutervddn: Think about the minds that have been gravitating to a given list or community.
<woutervddn> everygroup, bigger then 6 needs a leading figur in some way..4
<troy_s> woutervddn: And you might begin to see why I care so much about the culture.
<troy_s> woutervddn: I don't know. Most people I know that do creative stuffs gather out of respect.
<thorwil> woutervddn: how do vish, john and i not provide clear leadership, if you wait a bit for the dust to settle each time one of us takes a step? :)
<troy_s> woutervddn: There is certainly a leadership component if there is a need, but that needs to come from respect too.
<troy_s> thorwil: Because you folks are dull as dirt when I know you aren't.
<troy_s> thorwil: LOL
<troy_s> (Well at least two of you)
<troy_s> (I can't say I know John very well at all)
<woutervddn> @thorwil, I'm here for only a very short period of time.. I'm patient and can wait until the dust settles, but..
<troy_s> Ok. Gone. Thanks again all.
<woutervddn> I can't see how things look when the dust has settled because I have not seen it, yet..
<thorwil> woutervddn: it was a joke regarding the friction between us. clear ... after the dust
<woutervddn> jokes aren't clear on chats -_-'
<darkmatter> that and a reference to thorwil missing his annual bath ;)
 * thorwil doesn't bath at all, actually
<woutervddn> anyways guys, I'm taking of..
<woutervddn> got to study tomorrow (since i didn't do anything today..)
<thorwil> cya
<woutervddn> ciao..
<coz_> hey all
#ubuntu-artwork 2010-12-12
<coz_> good day
<woutervddn> a very good morning coz_
<coz_> woutervddn,  hey guy  good morning to you as well :)
<woutervddn> thx..
<woutervddn> I made 4 wallpapers for xubuntu last night..
<coz_> very cool
<woutervddn> then I read they were supposed to be without text or logo :)
<woutervddn> I went: FUUUUuuuuuuuuuu
<coz_> woutervddn,  :)  yeah  it seems its been that way from almost day one... I can recall just about everyone  saying...including shuttleworth, "no logos on wallpaper"
<woutervddn> but why is that?
<coz_> woutervddn,  welll I believe the idea is to have something well composed...simple..clear  and not distracting
<woutervddn> As much as I want to believe that it says I'm shy or whatever, I think it's a matter of pride..
<coz_> woutervddn,  examples like the current 10.10 default wallpaper
<woutervddn> from xubuntu or ubuntu?
<coz_> woutervddn,  all of the ubuntu versions now I believe
<woutervddn> xubuntu still uses text on there 10.10 release
<coz_> woutervddn,  oh!  mmm
<coz_> woutervddn,   well apparenlty someone decided no more  I guess
<woutervddn> Ah, it's okay :p I just wished someone said that sentence in bold :p
<coz_> woutervddn,  :)
<woutervddn> really sucks.. there were only 2 that look somewhat ok without the text :p
<coz_> woutervddn,  yeah ,, when you compose it with text  ,,,removing the text then damages the composition
<woutervddn> indeed ^
<coz_> woutervddn,  I havent submited this ,,, and I made these quite a while ago...but i sort of got around  the "no text" thing with this one   http://dl.dropbox.com/u/132551/Wallpaper/untitled%20folder/natty.png
<woutervddn> that's nice..
<woutervddn> omg so clean XD
<coz_> woutervddn,  thanks
<woutervddn> I suppose this was for edubuntu?
<coz_> woutervddn,  well with the "U"  in the water i guess it wouldnt matter  which version
<woutervddn> yeah that's true.. I just thought of edu from the colors..
<coz_> woutervddn,  although I wouldnt have submitted that for edubuntu... there was one edubuntu wallpaper I really liked...one with a chalk board  and maps drawn on it
<coz_> woutervddn,  oh ok I never thought of submitting that for edubuntu
<woutervddn> well I think edubuntu should be promoted more..
<woutervddn> I'm thinking about introducing that thought to our ubuntu-be local team..
<coz_> woutervddn,  I agree   I love that version and generally use it...recently , however,  I have been running ubuntu and just installing certain kde applications
<woutervddn> wel tbh I never really used it, just once when a friend tried it...
<woutervddn> but I love the thought of it...
<coz_> woutervddn,  its quite nice,,,they incorporated kde / gnome is a way that is not sluggish at all
<woutervddn> the current school curriculum in Belgium states that a student must be able to work with WINDOWS when he finishes school
<coz_> woutervddn,  o0
<coz_> woutervddn,  that's awful
<woutervddn> yeah.. reason for that is that windows is the major OS..
<coz_> woutervddn,  in belgium?
<coz_> woutervddn,  that's surprising...i was under the impression that europe in general was moving towards  linux
<woutervddn> yes, but it's not like they check for it, if you're OS at school is osX or linux it's not a problem
<coz_> oh!!
<woutervddn> but by putting that in the curriculum they send the wrong tone..
<coz_> for sure
<woutervddn> don't get it wrong, we are getting to linux.. but our ministry just don't change it..
<woutervddn> I guess there are a number of reasons for that..
<coz_> woutervddn,  are they reluctant because they would have to change teaching stradegies?
<woutervddn> 1) we don't have a goverment atm, 2) windows is used everywhere, 3) the ministry doesn't know sht about linux so they don't promote it..
<coz_> woutervddn,  ah ok
<woutervddn> I don't think anyone really tried to let them show a linux version for school use..
<coz_> woutervddn,  here in the US  we have one city governemtn in the state of Florida that has been switched completely over to Linux  + compiz
<coz_> government
<woutervddn> now that's cool :o
<coz_> woutervddn,  and very unique..it is the first government  organization that has done this to my knowledge
<woutervddn> if I could get the ubuntu-be team to support this and arange a meeting with our ministry we might get things done..
<coz_> woutervddn,  yeah ,,,I would also go into the with the expectation that they are set in their ways  and may be somewhat reluctant to change :)
<woutervddn> because students are our future.. changes of people above 30 or 40 to radically change to linux are slim..
<coz_> woutervddn,  oh well I dont about the age thing... i switch many of my clients over to ubuntu from windows all the time..and none have had any problem
<coz_> many are well over 40
<woutervddn> coz_ I don't know if they would be reluctant, in  general change in our school system has been welcomed a lot..
<coz_> one in his 80's
<woutervddn> really?
<woutervddn> hmm..
<coz_> woutervddn,  oh?  thats good to know
<woutervddn> but don't you think it's easier to let the youth change.. they are in general more open to this stuff..
<woutervddn> I showed ubuntu to my dad and he was like: Oh I don't get it, way more logical in windows
<coz_> woutervddn,  lol
<coz_> woutervddn,  windows is far from logical
<coz_> woutervddn,  gnome tends to be the most ligical of the DE's in my opinion
<woutervddn> I showed it to my little sister and she went: lol this is fast, I don't understand how it fully works but I like it..
<coz_> woutervddn,   I tell my clients...no viruses...at least yet for the desktop...no spyware....no money for anitvirus...now money for anything
<woutervddn> coz_: it's just a different kind of logic.. and the windows logic is't really logical logic, but it's just a matter of habbit..
<coz_> i agree
<thorwil> coz_: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/132551/Wallpaper/untitled%20folder/natty.png is clean and quite unique. at least i don't recall seeing something too similar
<woutervddn> and true about the money thing,  that might trigger something in belgium to... Schools can't afford a new ICT infrastructure every 3 years...
<woutervddn> paying 1000s and 1000s for an OS, there are better ways to spend your money
<coz_> thorwil,  thanks.. I have that and another in the same kind of  composition  but I never submitted them
<woutervddn> thorwil is either quoting me or we have the exact opinion, strange (after yesterday)
<coz_> thorwil,     http://dl.dropbox.com/u/132551/Wallpaper/untitled%20folder/ubuntu_Pond2.png
<woutervddn> coz_ ever thought about teaching? :p
<coz_> woutervddn,   yes  and I quickly reject the idea lol.. people in the US  are somewhat confused about what art is
<thorwil> woutervddn: hmm? i actually don't sense that much disagreement between us, it's just coming from different angles
<woutervddn> :p if not for the art, then do it for the techniques..
<coz_> woutervddn,  they assume that  the ability to draw or copy photos has something to do with fine art
<woutervddn> tbh I don't have a clue how to make a wrinkle in gimp
<woutervddn> thorwil: in general I agree with a lot of people, but that might derive from the fact that I believe it's ok to disagree..
<coz_> woutervddn,  i have argues with professors at  Carnegie Mellon university ...art progessors ...about the concept of composition...they are idiots
<woutervddn> I just thought it was strange that you said the exact same thing about coz_'s work
<woutervddn> apperantly coz_ can learn something about agreeing to dissagree :p
<coz_> :)   I have much to learn about everything even at my age
<woutervddn> coz_ as long as there is art there will be people who think one thing is art and another isn't
<coz_> woutervddn,  yes this is true i suppose
<thorwil> bbl
<woutervddn> imo, you can't define what is true art and what not.. you either love something or you don't..
<woutervddn> our brains work to different to all love the same thing..
<coz_> woutervddn,  well I dont know.... I am not one who believes that art is subjective
<coz_> woutervddn,  I sometimes go to washington DC  to the national gallery
<woutervddn> do you agree that music a form of art?
<coz_> woutervddn,  in one room are van gogh's painting
<coz_> woutervddn,  i do agree that music is also art
<woutervddn> (ill pick up the music thing later)
<woutervddn> go on :p
<coz_> woutervddn,  when I observer people in that van ghogh room ...one painting in particular... I forget the name... gather people aound it  like a magnet
<woutervddn> and why do you think that is?
<coz_> They are from all over the world  ..different backgrounds... different ethnic groups...yet they are drawn to this painting
<coz_> woutervddn,  i believe it is because van gogh  was able to use the rules of composition  ,, as a second nature tool... he was able to paint with great emotion
<woutervddn> can't  that be because in some way the painting is more universal?
<woutervddn> so much emotion he cut his ear off!
<coz_> woutervddn,  well he had epilepsy and probably syphilus
<woutervddn> funny thing is: van gogh was dutch
<coz_> but the fact that he worked so hard and was one of the most prolific painters... showed his dedication to learning composition and painting  regardless of his personal disabilities
<coz_> woutervddn,  yes  he was :)
<coz_> I also like the paint  odd nerdrum
<coz_> painter
<woutervddn> he was from brabant.. I'm from brabant to (belgium not netherlands but still it's like 80km away)
<coz_> woutervddn,  cool
<woutervddn> strange you bring that up :p
<woutervddn> I think culture does a lot with what people agree to think is art and what isn't..
<coz_> woutervddn,  maybe so ,, i believe more to the concept that culture  regards ...rightfully so... the importance of art as a career and certainly  one of the pillars that hold the roof up over a civilization
<coz_> art  , science,,phylosphy  are intertwined
<coz_> and a culture seasoned enough....old enough... and wise enough ,,,can see the importance of this
<woutervddn> without a doubt that's true..
<coz_> The US is FAR  from wise  or seasoned
<woutervddn> I'm still amased of the amount of math in all kinds of art
<woutervddn> the US is new..
<woutervddn> you may not compare it to europe fi...
<coz_> woutervddn,  yes and that math underlies all composition    geometry anyway
<woutervddn> true..
<coz_> woutervddn,  but the US was populated by those from seasoned and wise cultures
<coz_> woutervddn,  they have lost their  cultural memories
<coz_> woutervddn,  I once showed a few of my nude drawings  to people ... one said to me ,,,"Is that all you thing about?  SEX!"
<woutervddn> you know mozard introduced new instruments in the 2nd the 3rd the 5th the 8th the 13th, measure..
<woutervddn> coz_ in a year or 100 they'll understand..
<coz_> woutervddn,   I am glad you believe that :)  I have my doubtsd
<coz_> doubts
<woutervddn> anyways when you would take 2/3, 3/5, 5/8, 8/13, ... you get the golden mean..
<coz_> ah yes
<woutervddn> I'm sure of that, just as I'm sure that in 2 generations most of the funamental moslims will be gone...
<woutervddn> it's all a matter of age, europe is way older than america (or the US), just as christianity is 512 years older then the islam..
<woutervddn> give new groups of people some time, give them time to understand, give them time to see things in perspective..
<coz_> woutervddn,  One thing I have seen as i grow older  is that people around me are getting dumber
<woutervddn> that's not true coz_ :p that's you getting wiser.. :p
<coz_> woutervddn, oh no  I am not :)
<woutervddn> how old are you?
<woutervddn> (i didn't say wise, I said wiser)
<coz_> woutervddn,  one person we were talking with about many things..said ..."OH!  NASA  are the people who put a hole in the ozone layer so the space shuttle can get into space"
<woutervddn> xD yeah, I did saw a few vid's on youtube about americans answering questions of which you think, U got to be kidding me
<coz_> woutervddn,    yes it is quite frightening :)
<coz_> woutervddn,  as to my age,,, I generally tell people that I was around when "dirt "  was being created... I voted no on that issue :)
<woutervddn> I don't want to offend anyone, but I think america has become victim of what I think is the ease of being superficial
<coz_> woutervddn,  that is not offensive or  far from the truth
<woutervddn> dirt? I supose not like dirt from the ground...
<coz_> yes dirt from the ground lol
<woutervddn> damn you're old O_o'
<coz_> woutervddn,  thats a joke  by the way
<coz_> lol
<woutervddn> lol I know :p ;)
<coz_> woutervddn,  the wonderful thing about irc is that age  and appearances  have no  place in conversations
<coz_> only content
<woutervddn> true..
<woutervddn> altough, when I have to guess your age I'd say about 40 to 43 ?
<coz_> I'll accept that
<woutervddn> how far am I off?
<coz_> lol
<coz_> woutervddn,    I never reveal age....I do ask others only because they sometimes reveal themselves to be  in their teens  via converstaions
<woutervddn> how old do you think I am..
<coz_> woutervddn,  i dont know... as I said ,, i concentrate on the content of the conversation rather than the age of the brain it comes from
<coz_> woutervddn,  I have become used to the fact that people here in the US  over 40 or 50 tend to act 16
<woutervddn> nvmnd then.. :)
<woutervddn> you don't originate from the us don't you?
<coz_> woutervddn,  it is "always" refreshing to speak with europeans  and others from different countries  since they are far more mature in mind
<coz_> woutervddn,  no   my family is from Italy
<woutervddn> you're starting to scare me.. :s
<coz_> lol
<woutervddn> first van gogh.. now italy..
<coz_> woutervddn, :)
<woutervddn> 2 minutes ago my girlfriend walked in and told me she was thinking about moving to italy once we've completed school..
<coz_> woutervddn,  oooo
<coz_> woutervddn,  go with her :)
<woutervddn> lol, I told her I will, belgium is a nice country but seeing things beyond it would be nice..
<coz_> woutervddn,  neither of you  will regret it :)
<woutervddn> it might allways be Switzerland.. she's hoping on an internship at CERN
<coz_> woutervddn,  well then just go to italy for a year
<woutervddn> :p it seems like you're regretting the fact that you ever left italy?
<coz_> woutervddn,  we came here when I was very  young... and yes   I can always remember saying "Why did we come here?"
<woutervddn> then get your ass back over there :)
<coz_> woutervddn,  the US is beautiful ...BIG... lots of room  many forests  mountains
<woutervddn> if it's really such a pain that is..
<coz_> woutervddn,  but the people ruin it lol
<coz_> woutervddn,  here  buildings are built and demolished with no regard
<woutervddn> well, italy has quite a lot of space (for europe), and it has berlusconi,.. so it doesn't differ much from us I guess :p
<coz_> woutervddn,  people have no common sense ...  they can be very rude... but more importantly they have no self respect
<woutervddn> that sucks.. :)
<woutervddn> self respect and feeling good leads to respecting the environment around you..
<coz_> woutervddn,  yes it is ...of course that's not every person here but for the most part,,, regular people are not that bright and have non sense of their own possibilities
<woutervddn> and I'm not talking about keeping forests here, I'm talking about simple things..
<coz_> woutervddn,  I completely understand what you are saying
<woutervddn> U must have a european mind then :p
<coz_> woutervddn,  apparently that's true... I have never seen the world through american eyes
<woutervddn> one thing I was surprised to see lately was the inability of americans to see the use of social security..
<coz_> woutervddn,  doesnt surprise me :)
<woutervddn> it's a great idea, belgium has it for decates and even the chinese government checked our system because they thought it was good..
<coz_> cool
<woutervddn> especially after a crisis that big they must understand the benefits of it..
<woutervddn> and yes, there will be people who take advantage of it, but there are plenty of people who won't..
<woutervddn> how hypocrite is it to ask about a persons insurance while he's allready in a hospital dieing..
<coz_> woutervddn,  oh yes...I now
<coz_> know
 * darkmatter gives coz_ a good morning poke
<woutervddn> but if you hate all those things, then why don't you come back?
<coz_> darkmatter,   hey guy :)
<coz_> woutervddn, oh  I have family in both places but   also responsibilities here
 * darkmatter can't sleep so is trying to get some work done on Nostromo/Pandora, but blurry eyes are blurry
<coz_> darkmatter,  what time is it there for you?
<darkmatter> coz6:09 am (and I didn't go to bed)
<coz_> oh one hour difference for us   it is  7:09 here
<coz_> darkmatter,  you know already know sleep is more important :)
<darkmatter> coz_: yesh. but my rh is acting up. kinda hard to catch zz's when your body feel like a giant toothache. lol
<coz_> darkmatter,  ouch
<coz_> darkmatter,  is there anything you can do to relieve that?
<darkmatter> coz_: other than eating acetaminophen like pez, not really. NSAIDs are a big nono for me
<coz_> darkmatter,  damn
<coz_> darkmatter,  does anythning else help?  hot baths..cold packs ?
<darkmatter> somewhat. but if I bath now I'll fall asleep in the tub, lol
<coz_> darkmatter,  :)  how about any of the opiats?
<woutervddn> back.. sry went to put some soup on..
<coz_> woutervddn,  my kind of guy... food first lol
<woutervddn> xD srr..
<darkmatter> coz_: probably, but I don't have any
<coz_> darkmatter,  cant the physician prescribe any?
<darkmatter> coz_: yes. but the only time I see physicians is when I go in for my checkups at the cancer clinic (have one there alongside my oncologist). I _refuse_ to see the ones here in town because they're quacks ;)
<coz_> darkmatter,  understandable..but cant you call them and let them know?
<darkmatter> yeah. i guess I could, but they'd probably wanna check me over before subscribing anything. they're overly thorough that way (go figure)
<coz_> darkmatter,  well then do it...a complete checkover is not that hard  and the result is a prescription to stop or at leas make the pain bearable
<coz_> let me take a nature break   brb
<woutervddn> darkmatter, can I ask which kind of cancer you have?
<darkmatter> coz_: the local doctors here are so quacky they won't even fill out the forums to renew my disability "you don't really need it" is the usual type of response. oh really? I can't work, have a progressive disease, and can't eat a normal diet. that qualifies as "needing it" in my book :/
<woutervddn> doesn't  sound like you're lucky then.. :s
<woutervddn> how far is the clinic away?
<darkmatter> woutervddn: CLL/SLL. not "curable" like other cancers, but responds well to chemo. slow progressive crap. flares up >chemo until it's in check > watch list for <random interval> until it flares up again
<darkmatter> woutervddn: 200km (well, actually more like 145)
<coz_> darkmatter,  I meant call to the clinic for it
<darkmatter> coz_: I know, but they tend to be very picky about bloodtests and physical exams before prescribing anything
<woutervddn> that really sucks.. and driving 200km is one of those things you're not really looking forward to I suppose..
<coz_> darkmatter,  so what?  your health is more important than your inconvenience ..yes?
<darkmatter> woutervddn: it's not that bad atm. I'm on the watchlist atm, so it's every two months
<coz_> darkmatter,  ok ..well... you know best what you can cope with ...so i will back off
<woutervddn> ok, but still..
<darkmatter> cozyes. but I have an appointment at the end of the month for my regular prodding. I'd rather not blow money I don't have on an extra trip ;)
<coz_> darkmatter,  understood
<darkmatter> I'll just harrass them about it when I see them
<coz_> darkmatter,  that's the spirit :)
<coz_> ok guys,, I am going to break her for a bit.. I have to do  a few things     be back in a little while
<darkmatter> I'd _have_ the money if the bloody government had the courtesy to send the renewal forms _before_ cancelling my medical. they're kinda odd like that. they seem to think ending a chemo cycle is _cured_ or some silliness. *shrug*
<woutervddn> :s
<woutervddn> that sucks..
<woutervddn> brb.. (food)
<darkmatter> just an inconvenience this time around. usually I have enough of a grace period so I don't lose the extra funds.
<woutervddn> back..
<woutervddn> darkmatter, that pain, does it go away? or does that stay for another month?
<darkmatter> woutervddn: it'll pass. it probably flared up because of the weather (barometric pressure and such)
<woutervddn> wow, is it really that sensitive to weather?
<darkmatter> woutervddn: yes. rh is known to be affected by such things. the extent varies with individual cases, but is well documented
<woutervddn> I've had a couple of relatives that died of cancer (not leukemia) but I never knew that it was sensitive in that way..
<woutervddn> is there much research going on to cll/sll
<darkmatter> woutervddn: lol. not the leukemia. the pain is from rh (rheumatoid arthritis). you must have missed that ;)
<woutervddn> ow sorry yes..
<darkmatter> my leukemia is currently in the "wait and see" stage again, so I'm good for the time being. and yes, there is a lot of research being done
<woutervddn> thats a good thing then.. :)
<woutervddn> so how long are you allready active in the artwork-team?
<darkmatter> I'm not actually. I just gather here out of respect for  my peers (and the lively banter they sometimes provide when not procrastinating... lazy buggers ;p). I became jaded regarding any possible association between FOSS and art /design/sanity ages ago ;)
<woutervddn> ow :p
<woutervddn> but you are active in the design the design world?
<darkmatter> trying to be, sometimes
<woutervddn> we're all just trying :p
<kwwii> hey all
<thorwil> hi ho
<woutervddn> ugh, headache
<kwwii> hi thorwil
<kwwii> woutervddn: take two and call me in the morning :-)
<thorwil> doctor ken?
<woutervddn> lol
<woutervddn> I don't know what it is, I ate this evening, went to sit in this chair and got a stinging pain..
<kwwii> thorwil: hey, I hung out with vish and learned a lot!
<kwwii> woutervddn: ouch
<kwwii> suckage
<woutervddn> yeah..
<thorwil> my brother recently had the idea of trying to cure his back pain by using one of those big orange inflatable rubber balls to sit on in front of the pc
<thorwil> took just few minutes to find out the ball was too low and does not permit sufficient air circulation for the butt :)
<kwwii> lol
<woutervddn> lolz
<troy_s> vish: Greets. Co
<troy_s> cozziemoto: Coz that you?
<woutervddn> coz_ went away an hour ago I think..
<woutervddn> but he might be online with 2 usernames..
<troy_s> woutervddn: I was going to give him grief for suggesting art and design wasn't relative.
<woutervddn> xD lol
<troy_s> woutervddn: It is a path that a huge body of evidence rejects any notions of "universal"
<woutervddn> troy, if all your artwork is as complex as your way of speaking, it would be a fractal!
<troy_s> woutervddn: Even what many believed to be 'physiological' optical illusions has had research that suggests it is cultural.
<troy_s> woutervddn: Art has been around longer than agriculture and literature. Would you expect simple?
<woutervddn> or a deviation of the brain..
<woutervddn> do you know the hollow mask study performed on people with lsd?
<troy_s> woutervddn: No, can't say I do.
<woutervddn> it's not really about art but about optical illusions..
<woutervddn> people who took lsd and some people who have autism can tell the difference between a concave and a convex mask
<woutervddn> whereas normal people can't, we allways think to see a convex one..
<woutervddn> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hollow-Face_illusion
<woutervddn> there's a documentary about it..
 * woutervddn wonders what that has to do with art.. anyways, illusions..
<troy_s> woutervddn: Optical illusions are relative. Many think they are absolute.
<troy_s> woutervddn: Because art / design is relativistic as well.
<troy_s> woutervddn: "Proper" composition? Relative to culture. Relative to history. Etc.
<woutervddn> ofcourse art is relative in some way..
<woutervddn> some things about art are just easier to accept in a lot of cultures..
<woutervddn> and that my friend is all about math..
<troy_s> woutervddn: Symbolism and analogy, the cornerstones of a visual language, relative.
<woutervddn> the golden mean..
<troy_s> woutervddn: No
<troy_s> woutervddn: That is precisely my point.
<woutervddn> I'm not saying everything is just math..
<troy_s> woutervddn: Phi is western art.
<troy_s> Wou
<troy_s> woutervddn: A construct of the Renaissance.
<woutervddn> I doubt that..
<troy_s> woutervddn: There simply is no universal truth in art and design.
<troy_s> woutervddn: Some do. Research it.
<troy_s> woutervddn: I am stating you would be simply incorrect to believe Phi governs Indian art, Asian art, or any other culture outside of Eurowestern approach.
<woutervddn> I'll do some research about that, that is a very interesting question you have there..
<troy_s> woutervddn: Which is precisely why understanding art / design as language is critical.
<troy_s> woutervddn: Some have already studied it and researched it.
<woutervddn> without a doubt leonardo da vinci has a lot to do with the european way of thinking about art..
<troy_s> woutervddn: There is a good example of "reading" art...
<woutervddn> but I'll look for older forms of art..
<troy_s> woutervddn: It was an influential movement.
<woutervddn> it was indeed
<troy_s> woutervddn: It too passes. Will pass.
<troy_s> woutervddn: http://www.eyes-and-vision.com/influence-of-culture-on-visual-perception.html
<woutervddn> hmm.. question: how come the golden ratio is used in pyramids?
<woutervddn> the incas, aztecs and Egyptians use it in there pyramids...
<troy_s> woutervddn: It is precisely why I encourage people to actually study art and design history. What many folks accept as "truth" in Libre software is absolutely false.
<troy_s> woutervddn: It isn't. Read Mario Livo's book.
<woutervddn> who's mario livo?
<troy_s> woutervddn: The thing about Phi is that when it is irresponsibly applied you can see it everywhere. Like god or looking at shapes in clouds.
<troy_s> woutervddn: The Golden Mean.
<woutervddn> true.. but some measurements are just to precise..
<woutervddn> and that link is was stunning :)
<troy_s> Erm... The Golden Ratio. It -is- a compelling value, but it was a core of artists in a movement that put it into the Eurowesterner's aesthetic vernacular.
<woutervddn> btw, troy, that link said something about illusion, not about compsition..
<troy_s> woutervddn: Hopefully it hints at some of the complexity in art and design as language.
<troy_s> woutervddn: You will need to look at non Eurowestern art to support that claim. Or pre Ren art for that matter.
<troy_s> woutervddn: Portraiture reveals its impact almost immediately.
<troy_s> woutervddn: This is a fantastic article illustrating how relativistic context and culture play into design: http://www.uigarden.net/english/global-market-global-emotion-global-design
<woutervddn> I'll look at some more 'evidence' of the art conspiracy later on.. but I have to run now..
<woutervddn> Cya ;-)
<troy_s>  woutervddn Ciao. It isn't a conspiracy. ;)
<troy_s> woutervddn: It is education.
#ubuntu-artwork 2012-12-06
<paultag> Hey, anyone here in charge of the Ubuntu branding packages?
<paultag> I'm one of the desktop-base maintainers in Debian, and I want to refactor how we're doing themes. I'd like to make sure Ubuntu's supported.
<paultag> I have some ideas on making that fast & easy, but someone to talk to would be nicer
* You're now known as ubuntulog
#ubuntu-artwork 2012-12-07
<paultag> right, nevermind then :)
<tsimpson> paultag: the mailing list is probably a better place if you actually want a reply
<tsimpson> ubuntu-art@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-art
<paultag> tsimpson: I was just looking for the folks doing packaging work, I didn't think that ML was technical
<tsimpson> paultag: got to be better than a dead channel
<tsimpson> at least someone should be able to point you at the right people
<paultag> I'd really rather not waste time tracking down someone to talk with about this, I was just trying to make a good gesture to make sure y'all are happy as I change it upstream
<paultag> but thanks anyway, I'll just idle here for a few more days and then part, I guess.
<tsimpson> paultag: sure, but you're the first person to actually talk in here for weeks (if not longer)
<paultag> Mmmm.
