#ubuntu-accessibility 2011-03-28
<hajour> hajour> mmm can someone help me whit to look on a odt? or i put it in a pastebin
<hajour> <hajour> i have write it in a odt what i need to write for to ask sponsorship
<hajour> <hajour> for UDS
<hajour> i not new what to write exactly but i have tried
<hajour> goodnight all. in about 4 and half hour my alarm clock will go off again :S
<charlie-tca> We are testing the Natty Narwhal Beta1 images this week. If anyone has a spare partition or computer to test with, we would like to test both the screen-reader install and the rest of the accessibility options under F5
<charlie-tca> Pendulum: bug 739812
<ubot2> Launchpad bug 739812 in unity "Must use hardware keyboard to perform search for applications in Unity" [Critical,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/739812
<charlie-tca> sabdfl wants to know why it is critical...
 * JackyAlcine will be right back.
<charlie-tca> anyone around can verify a high-contrast installation on Ubuntu natty-dektop-i386 ?
<charlie-tca> screen-reader install is a required test for beta1 :-)
#ubuntu-accessibility 2011-03-29
<hajour> Pendulum, are you around?
<charlie-tca> New images are ready for testing Natty Narwhal Beta1 ! All help testing is appreciated.
<hajour> charlie-tca,  Natty Narwhal Beta1 to use on a notebook?
<hajour> if it can be used on a notebook i maybe can help testing it
<charlie-tca> hajour: you have enough with thaqt notebook, maybe that would not be a good idea for you.
<charlie-tca> Let's not make you have more problems yet
<hajour> o ok thought i could help
<charlie-tca> I want to say YES, but I am afraid of the problems it could make you have
<hajour> ok .i not have money yet to buy a pc but if i have one i want to help with testing to if i may
<hajour> btw have send a mail for sponsoring for to go to uds charlie-tca 
<charlie-tca> excellent! 
<hajour> 6 hours work on 5 odt s .but still needed to change very much 
<charlie-tca> You may help, but let's not make problems if you need the computer to work.
<hajour> AlanBell, and Pendulum  agraner have helped and 2 more but i not remember all names
<hajour> helping by pastebin
<charlie-tca> That's grreat!
<hajour> yes
<charlie-tca> I hope you get there, too.
<hajour> i am busy reading all logs from speechcontrol btw.to see wich devs have wich skills students interest for to make a tabel from it
<hajour> also all mails from speechcontrol :S
<hajour> little nerves about the UDS
<hajour> i never been to something like that
<charlie-tca> My first time was six months ago.
<charlie-tca> It is very exciting to get there
<hajour> i not really now what to expect
<charlie-tca> I did not know either.
<charlie-tca> sometimes it was fun, sometimes it was boring.
<charlie-tca> Mostly, it was exciting and energizing.
<hajour> sec need to get my kid to bed brb
<hajour> ok back again
<hajour> charlie-tca, ^
<charlie-tca> filing a bug
<hajour> a ok
<hajour> i go to bed in about a half hour charlie-tca  i only had 2 hours sleep in morning.i worked whole night on the sponsoring odt
<charlie-tca> Better get some rest then.
<charlie-tca> The days are long enough already.
<hajour> yes i go in about a few minutes charlie-tca 
<charlie-tca> My new keyboard arrived. 
<charlie-tca> It is a used, keyboard and trackball all-in-one
<hajour> used don't matter thought.important is it works charlie-tca 
<charlie-tca> I agree
<charlie-tca> that's why I needed this particular one
<hajour> nice you have it now charlie-tca  
<charlie-tca> It is supposed to be good for people with constant pain in the fingers and hands
<hajour> is it bigger keys or smaller?
<charlie-tca> Keys are about same as normal, but work different
<hajour> my fingers go last days often n lock in weird positions
<hajour> it hurts to set them back again
<charlie-tca> That is very painful, too.
<hajour> so thats why i asked how that keyboard works
<charlie-tca> I don't yet, I have to get it connected.
<charlie-tca> The trackballs are very nice for that, though
<charlie-tca> I wore mine out.
<hajour> well if you have tried it out will you let me know then charlie-tca ?
<charlie-tca> Well, sorry about that. New keyboard is now connected. 
#ubuntu-accessibility 2011-03-30
<charlie-tca> Do we have anyone that can run a couple of tests? We need to test the screen-reader installs for t
<charlie-tca> beta1, and since I wrote the tests, it would be better to have someone else run them too
<AlanBell> hi charlie-tca
<charlie-tca> Hello, AlanBell 
<AlanBell> yes, I can run some tests, and I can make a slot in our global jam for that too
<charlie-tca> today?
<AlanBell> I can test something today (if it can be done in a VM)
<charlie-tca> two tests today are needed
<AlanBell> the jam is on Saturday
<AlanBell> ok, what tests?
<charlie-tca> As long as you get sound, to test orca installations
<AlanBell> yeah, I get sound
<AlanBell> oh, I don't get unity until installing the virtualbox guest additions, but that shouldn't matter for the installer I think
<charlie-tca> http://testcases.qa.ubuntu.com/Install/DesktopAccessibility
<charlie-tca> Can you do 32 and 64 bit?
<charlie-tca> or just one?
<AlanBell> yeah I can do both
<charlie-tca> great!
<charlie-tca> I can run them on hardware to verify anything you question, okay?
<AlanBell> what build do you want me to test?
<AlanBell> daily-live?
<charlie-tca> http://cdimages.ubuntu.com/daily-live/20110329.1/
<charlie-tca> not mac
<charlie-tca> I replaced my keyboard when my trackball wore out, got a qtronics ione 35 with trackball built in
<AlanBell> zsyncing both of those
<charlie-tca> Awesome! Thanks very much
<AlanBell> doing the 64 bit install now
<AlanBell> it has booted into classic gnome
<AlanBell> problem between step 6 and step 7
<AlanBell> alt+f1 takes you to the menu but that isn't where the installer is, the icon for that is on the desktop
<AlanBell> oh, might work in Unity, don't know
<AlanBell> when scrolling up and down the languages I wonder if espeak could switch languages as it goes
<charlie-tca> There should be an is\
<AlanBell> because it can't pronounce francais
<charlie-tca> there should be an installer icon as the first launcher in Unity on the dock
<AlanBell> yeah, but I am in classic gnome
<charlie-tca> The test case is designed specific to unity working. One of the issues yet with the "new" ubuntu
<AlanBell> ok, the test case should include that when it starts speaking it should tell you
<AlanBell> "desktop environment is unity"
<charlie-tca> I don't think it does say that in unity
<charlie-tca> I will boot one and listen
<AlanBell> and if it tells you desktop environment is classic gnome then different instructions are needed
<AlanBell> it does
<charlie-tca> If they decide which session a11y will use, it would be much easier, huh?
<AlanBell> quite a lot of machines will boot to classic gnome
<charlie-tca> I will wrio
<charlie-tca> I will write another test then for classic, and put it down as you suggest. 
<charlie-tca> That's why I needed someone besides me to try this
<UndiFineD> I tried natty 6 days ago ... somewhat of a vista experiance
<UndiFineD> unity seems unproductive, so I got annoyed with that, switched to classic, which killed my encrypted user home directory
<AlanBell> "use underscore device" radio button lable is a bit crap
<AlanBell> as is "custom underscore partitioning"
<charlie-tca> I agree. 
<maco> O_o
<AlanBell> I think I might go through this again and make a video and audio recording of it
<charlie-tca> so, how bad is the test case?
<charlie-tca> Other than it was written for unity and we need to have one for classic
<charlie-tca> AlanBell: thank you for doing the tests. It really helps to know where the fails are now.
<charlie-tca> I ran it about 5 times, and did not catch some of that stuff
<AlanBell> it is pretty shocking :)
<AlanBell> I knew that already, but I am still shocked once more
 * UndiFineD hears "it's electrifying, go grease lightning"
<UndiFineD> :P
<charlie-tca> Well, I guess that is one way to put it :-)
 * charlie-tca goes to write a new test for classic-gnome; that's what he started with, too
<charlie-tca> I will have to install the nvidia card to get it to fall 
<charlie-tca> fallback properly
<UndiFineD> I had no nvidia trouble on natty
<UndiFineD> but I upgraded ..
<charlie-tca> If you don't install the hardware driver, unity don't work again
<charlie-tca> it was working with one of the default drivers, but now it needs the hardware nvidia driver again
<UndiFineD> ah yes I have that
#ubuntu-accessibility 2011-03-31
<cprofitt> Pendulum: ping
<hajour> hai all
<hajour> i go tomorrow begin a petition  against the inaccessible internet programs from the netherlands government.on European lvl
<hajour> i go try to get so much i can assigners and then to denhaag to offer them
<hajour> so they get more pressure to improve there system a lot and that they go make it accessible for people whit health issues
<hajour> so all people can use it
<hajour> i have enough of it.it costed me a year they offered help.but why this way.if they had just a app in so it can enlarge fonts /colour and audio.then i not had needed that help
<hajour> so i stop complaining and go do something about it
<hajour> i want try to make the petition accessible to for everyone
<hajour> i would appreciate to get some help whit the last part
 * hajour have put here safety jacket on to go for it
<hajour> duanedesign,  if i remember correct you make also video/audio. things like that.
<hajour> well i need to eat now. but i am back in about 3 and half hours again.need to eat and care for the kids also
<hajour> o and also maco you know more from deaf 
<hajour> and i hope that changes not only go in netherland but in whole europe and maybe more
<hajour> must make somewhere a start thought
<hajour> till later
<hajour> and if they go say that accessibility is to expensive i go say them to just look at the open source programs instead to only window programs
<AlanBell> http://blip.tv/file/4958226
<AlanBell> charlie-tca: ^^
<hajour> its not loading AlanBell :(
<hajour> your link
<AlanBell> I think it is OK
<hajour> ok i go try again
<hajour> loaded but i see a black square is that how it need to be AlanBell ?
<AlanBell> I know various things don't work on your computer, I think this works on Ubuntu with Flash generally
<hajour> i got flash
<AlanBell> do other videos on blip.tv generally work for you?
<Pendulum> it worked okay on mine (at least for as long as I had it open, but I stopped it pretty quickly)
<hajour> but AlanBell  are there more light weight programs on ubuntu?
<hajour> youtube works
<charlie-tca> jI k
<hajour> by me
<charlie-tca> I like that
<hajour> XD i really need to eat honest say.but i get so much ideas on the moment
<charlie-tca> AlanBell: the fallback fails in virtualbox completely at this time
<charlie-tca> Can you do that again after we get good procedures written?
<hajour> so its not something i only have i not see something?
<hajour> or only by me
<charlie-tca> It is kind of an ugly way to have to do things right now. I wish they would just give us classic-gnome sessions already for accessibility
<charlie-tca> hajour: it worked here
<AlanBell> hajour: I think it works on a full size computer, but a netbook with little ram is going to struggle with video
<AlanBell> and if you are not running Ubuntu then I don't know what bits are missing from xubuntu that might be a problem
<hajour> mm
<charlie-tca> I keep getting told everything is working, but everytime I or anyone else tries to do these installs they fail bad
<hajour> i go ask or UndiFineD  want to look by me /notebook.to see or we can see something
<AlanBell> yeah, happy to try it again
<charlie-tca> I don't think hajour runs xubuntu either, it is Lubuntu, isn't it?
<hajour> btw have you all see what i have wrote earlier?
<hajour> i got lubuntu
<charlie-tca> and Lubuntu is missing a lot to get everything to just work
<AlanBell> I don't even know what that is
<charlie-tca> Lxde environment, with absolute minimum items installed by default
<AlanBell> oh yes, xubuntu is xfce isn't it
<AlanBell> I had the two confused
<charlie-tca> Uses less ram than Xubuntu, but doesn't really work good out of the box
<charlie-tca> yup, Xubuntu is Xfce
<charlie-tca> But Xubuntu pulls in a few gnome and gtk dependencies to keep everything working
<hajour> i have been called diner is ready really need to go now
<hajour> till later i read later back
<AlanBell> I think the accessible installer should be taken over by the server team, not the desktop team
<AlanBell> give them the use-case of server+headphones+keyboard+power+CD and tell them to make it happen
<charlie-tca> cjwatson would like someone to help out with accessibility in the installer, too
<charlie-tca> I don't progr
<charlie-tca> program, which makes it difficult.
<charlie-tca> Problem with server team d
<charlie-tca> doing it is the server doesn't use the GUI
<charlie-tca> I have issues with the backspace on this keyboard yet
<UndiFineD> charlie-tca, as I maintian hajour her laptop half the time, it does have almost everything essential for gnome
<UndiFineD> it can run ubuntu 10.10, but the system is then slowed to half
<UndiFineD> having lxde as the wm makes it that much agile
<pleia2> AlanBell: thanks for your reply re: 739812
 * pleia2 has been seeing more and more tablets creep into installfests
<AlanBell> https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/739812
<AlanBell> last comment is worthy of discussion
<ubot2> Launchpad bug 739812 in unity "Must use hardware keyboard to perform search for applications in Unity" [Critical,Confirmed]
<charlie-tca> I saw it
<charlie-tca> no fallback in Oneiric?
<AlanBell> We made very good progress on a11y in Natty, but will miss the goal of perfect a11y. We'll nail it in Oneiric. That's OK, because we have the Classic desktop fallback in Natty, but will not in Oneiric.
<hajour>  pleia maybe stupid question but what is creep into installfests ?
<AlanBell> yeah, several things to disucuss on that
<pleia2> hajour: creep into installfests?
<hajour> pleia2 has been seeing more and more tablets creep into installfests
<AlanBell> so, missing the goal of perfect a11y, well we kind of knew that already
<pleia2> hajour: oh, people bringing them to installfests
<hajour> tabets i know what that are
<hajour> is installfest a program ?
<hajour> tablets i mean
<pleia2> an installfest is an event where people come to get something installed on their computer
<pleia2> so we have ubuntu installfests where people bring their computers (and laptops and tablets) to get help installing ubuntu
<hajour> a soemthing like a sort of lan party?
<hajour> something i mean
<hajour> or more like a helpdesk
<pleia2> hajour: here are some photos from one we had last year: http://www.flickr.com/photos/pleia2/sets/72157624183677592/
<pleia2> people just bring in computers, ask people with ubuntu shirts for help :)
<AlanBell> so what do you think charlie-tca?
<AlanBell> I think the bug would be correctly classified as high rather than critical
<hajour> that sounds more like sort of help desk if i am right
<AlanBell> but I think this raises a number of other concerns
<charlie-tca> It would be, but it used to use "affects a small group but it completely unusable for them" as critical
<charlie-tca> I have to look when that got changed. There was 3 or 4 items under critical in the past.
<charlie-tca> Of cousrse they missed perfect a11y, they ignore us as much as possible uint
<charlie-tca> until the last month to 6 weeks, and expect it to work?
<charlie-tca> Luke said a while back he didn't 
<AlanBell> yes, I agree
<hajour> o btw i use firefox now.because whot all kind of combinations chromium stayed give screenfreeze whit many pics or grey squares
<charlie-tca> know how much he could do alone on it, even working for Canonical
<hajour> whot=with
<charlie-tca> chromium has been giving a lot of people issues lately.
<charlie-tca> It doesn't seem as smooth as it was for a while
<hajour> i discovered that if i use the cames on facebook whit upload it gives same results like for using bank system almost all banks use in netherlands
<hajour> for internet banking
<hajour> with uploading from bank the screen freeze
<charlie-tca> I think we did our best with accessibility in Natty, and we can do even better in Oneiric. We got further in this release than ever before, thanks to all the push from people like Jono and jcastro and Penelope
<hajour> same whit games on face book
<hajour> but whit firefox boths work good
<hajour> but i found testing whit bank a bit risky
<hajour> so i used games from facebook instead
<hajour> after it worked good whitt games i tryed it out whot banking
<hajour> with
<charlie-tca> AlanBell: I am very thankful that jono spent so much time with us this cycle. 
<AlanBell> yeah, generally I think things are going in a reasonable direction
<hajour> and then it also worked good whit the bank system and whit the program from btw from government progra,
<hajour> jus to let you all know
<jono> thanks charlie-tca
<hajour> i not only for playing games there you now
<jono> I didn't do all that much - you folks did the hard work :-)
<hajour> but was saver way for test
<AlanBell> jono: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/unity/+bug/739812/comments/5
<ubot2> Launchpad bug 739812 in unity "Must use hardware keyboard to perform search for applications in Unity" [Critical,Confirmed]
<hajour> o hi jono sorry not new you wsa around jono
<charlie-tca> jono: Your advice and assistance keep things going in the right direction, sometimes.
<hajour> i not can read and write at the same time
<charlie-tca> At least mark did not close it or drop us down to wishlist on the bug.
<AlanBell> o/ popey 
<charlie-tca> hajour: I am glad you found to test it.
<charlie-tca> jono just sits back and watches things sometimes. 
<charlie-tca> it keeps him informed that way.
<AlanBell> charlie-tca: I think we should drop it down to high (I can't), and leave a suitable comment
<AlanBell> I am not sure what that suitable comment should be
<charlie-tca> All right, until I find what happened to the importance page and fix it.
<hajour> but i think it is something whit the conection from like flash to chromium
<hajour> what causes the problem
<AlanBell> charlie-tca: I see no recent changes to critical https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Bugs/Importance?action=info
<AlanBell> critical is "the CD doesn't boot" kind of issues
<hajour> like there is going some wrong like mm send a postmen to wrong adress  by sort of speaking
<AlanBell> with this one you can't type in one field, but you can use the mouse to browse and click the same stuff
<hajour> uhm tolet you know if this happens whit the chromium browser to sites payments offices are not very want to gonna use that
<hajour> go use it i mean
<charlie-tca> AlanBell: three years of bug triage, lots of things change :-)
<hajour> yes that also happens whit chromium what AlanBell  said
<hajour> also no loading to slow
<hajour> because of that screen freeze
<hajour> btw not only by my nnotebook
<hajour> also with my kids pc s who uses ubuntu
<charlie-tca> done, AlanBell 
<hajour> also in learning programs also many pics are used
<hajour> so also by learning programs its not useble
<hajour> for kids whit learn problems
<hajour> sorry if i disturb a lot
<hajour> but i really need to sleep honest say
<hajour> but wanted to let you all know
<charlie-tca> You are doing fine. We just don't always respond so quick.
<hajour> what i have experienced till now
<charlie-tca> AlanBell: If I knew of more than one "straw" user, I could push for the large group of accessibility users. :-)
<hajour> also i already have a meeting next sunday i have gathered people from sii/wintermute /speechcontrol and trying to pull some adults to from ubuntu youth for to gather momeny for to get 1 for jacky
<hajour> because he his now is really broken
<hajour> he also thit a lot for launchpad jacky
<AlanBell> thanks charlie-tca, good comment
<hajour> money or a other pc sec hand new do not matter
<charlie-tca> Got to keep trying, right? and it won't help to piss Mark off at us now. We got a roll going
<charlie-tca> hajour: what happened to jacky's computer?
<hajour> motherboard
<charlie-tca> ouch
<AlanBell> charlie-tca: exactly, I think reducing the status made that comment stronger
<maco> AlanBell: does a bug importance need to be changed?
<hajour> a moth ago his laptop felt but it was already not rreally good before its old
<charlie-tca> maco: can you change unity upstream importance?
<hajour> after that everytime more broke
<maco> oh, no. i thought yall meant an ubuntu/<package> one
<charlie-tca> no, I did that one
<maco> ohok
<maco> (sorry, i dont know who all has bug control access)
<charlie-tca> hajour: sorry to hear that. I just got a laptop for myself from my son-in-law when he got a new one.
<hajour> but last time he game on ubuntu on his girlfriends pc and told his laptop now really died
<AlanBell> maco: charlie-tca just did, see the last few comments on https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/unity/+bug/739812
<ubot2> Launchpad bug 739812 in unity "Must use hardware keyboard to perform search for applications in Unity" [Critical,Confirmed]
<hajour> soi thougt all will it be only 1 penny many penny s make together a lot
<maco> AlanBell: he just said that
<charlie-tca> hajour: that is correct. That is how things get done, after all.
<hajour> Jacky just passed exam for get a scholarship for college or university for very bright kids for pc edusaction
<hajour> but whit out laptop
<hajour> his study will come in danger to
<hajour> so heads together differences put aside for to help jacky
<hajour> no arguments or dev discussions allowed only talk for help jacky 
<hajour> next sunday
<hajour> but i not dared to go in sii channel i was afraid i would say something wrong
<hajour> what would ruin all
<hajour> so i have asked michealh to do for ask
<hajour> and wintermute agreed and sii or how it is called
<hajour> only hope some from ubuntu youth also want to help 
<hajour> for to help Jacky
<hajour> i know also some adults are there
<hajour> they go be angry if they discover i still not been go to sleep D
<hajour> :D
<hajour> so charlie-tca  you think i did right to let michealh to ask?
<hajour> just was really afraid to break
<hajour> all trough my fault
<hajour> by making mistakes whit read or write wrong misunderstanding
<charlie-tca> hajour: Oh, yes. Sometimes it is really good to let others do the asking.
<hajour> and help jacky is really important
<charlie-tca> Yes, it is. You are learning!
<hajour> not want someting go wrong whit that
<hajour>  if i get sponsoring i hope i not do not something wrong there
<hajour> -not
<charlie-tca> it happens. I know
<charlie-tca> I have been in that situation before. It is not fun.
<hajour> i not may make mistakes
<charlie-tca> We all make mistakes sometimes.
<hajour> but not there
<hajour> i had with exam on highschool totally block.i almost failed because of that.but i need to confront fear and step over it
<hajour> i normally was really very good whit speaking exam
<hajour> and there came no word out of me that moment
<charlie-tca> I make mistakes. It is very hard to get everyone to work together without making some people upset.
<hajour> im afraid to fail
<hajour> btw i right that good?
<hajour> is fail like not doing good
<charlie-tca> That makes it much harder to keep going sometimes.
<charlie-tca> fail is to not be able to do what you tried.
<hajour> ?
<charlie-tca> mistake is to do someti
<charlie-tca> mistake is doing what you think is right, and then find out it is wrong.
<hajour> ok
<charlie-tca> fail is trying to do something and find you can not do it
<hajour> just nerves
<charlie-tca> I am failing at typing good with this keyboard. My sentences keep getting cut up.
<hajour> o yes
<charlie-tca> I made a mistake typng this.
<hajour> how it works
<hajour> your new keyboard
<charlie-tca> but I might be able to fix the failing typing, if I keep trying.
<hajour> i have stayed i not have quite
<hajour> no not good wrote that
<hajour> i have not stopped with speechcontrol
<charlie-tca> I type really bad if I get angry. Then I can't spell at all, and even forget words.
<hajour> ye know all about that
<hajour> i have that whitout being angry all the time whitout spelling program
<hajour> they want  now i go official test me for dislectie.my helper says is for show because it is very clear i have dislectie she said
<charlie-tca> me too! but it gets much worse when I get upset.
<hajour> for get proof from it
<hajour> so if i get a job in about 4 till 7 years .i get the proper adjustments for do work
<hajour> because need proof from written oon paper
<hajour> i said i not want wait 4 till 7 years
<hajour> btw i have work here
<charlie-tca> Yes, you have to have the proper tests for proof
<hajour> only makes it hard i not get any money from nothing at all.because i never have worked i not have rights on nothing.and undifined only get wel fair in about a few weeks because he lost his job
<hajour> only reason still i want put this trough to get a payed job to make pressure very less for undifined he then will be not so very worrying all the time
<charlie-tca> yes, that would be very good for both of you.
<hajour> because i really like doing tasks here and helping
<hajour> feeling useful again
<charlie-tca> You don't have temporary work places there? 
<charlie-tca> We have places that will hire you for a few hours at a time in America.
<hajour> yes and that is where i come on waithing list for
<charlie-tca> You have to go everyday, but sometimes, it works good.
<hajour> waithing list 4 till 7 year
<charlie-tca> ouch!
<charlie-tca> That is too long for that
<hajour> and that is if it go s goodbecause instance said it probarly will go 10 years
<hajour> but i already am at home for 19 years
<hajour> i not want wait again 10 years
<hajour> its not fair
<charlie-tca> I could agree with that. That is a very long time to wait
<hajour> i mean i also have rights on work thought
<hajour> really if i ever start a business i go hire at least half people who are heave a health issues
<hajour> half people i can hire 
<hajour> bah
<hajour> sec translate
<charlie-tca> yup
<hajour> I'm sure that at least n. half of the people are people whit issuesso they also get a change
<hajour> and not like government do
<hajour> give them very less payed then rest of the people there who do the same work
<charlie-tca> Everybody needs a little start at some time
<hajour> no here it is go like this
<hajour> they hire people
<hajour> get exstra money for to do that
<hajour> even if they can do the same like the rest
<hajour> they get by example someone with issues 895,00 euro  a month
<hajour> and person who is healthy who do the same work get like by example 1895,00 euro a month
<hajour> so person whit issues still need to go to well fair to be able to pay the bills
<charlie-tca> wow! That is quite a difference.
<hajour> and then after 2 years they find a exuse
<hajour> to get rid of the person
<hajour> because after 2 years they need to give a steady place
<charlie-tca> So they still are behind in the hir
<hajour> they not want that
<charlie-tca> hiring and putting to work the disabled
<charlie-tca> Although, I think it is not too different here. They try to keep the disabled down in the lowest paying jobs.
<hajour> persons whit issues get disapointment on ddisapointment and getting depressed
<hajour> and very low self image
<charlie-tca> yes
<hajour> and go feel they cant do nothing
<charlie-tca> yup
<charlie-tca> and it makes it harder to keep going looking for work, too.
<hajour> also government claimes they care for adjustments.but by example special pc programs for people whit issues it takes often more then a year it is been arranged.more often even 2 years
<hajour> yes
<hajour> that also count for by example a special chair of desk
<hajour> because even you been bu many doctors
<hajour> government says they not believe
<hajour> so government let test you like a labrat
<hajour> again by doctors from government
<hajour> but they often not have knowledge from the issues from the patient
<hajour> because only the specialist knows
<charlie-tca> I think they do that everywhere. Here I am disabled by the military Veterans Hospital, but not by other areas of the government. I have to allow all the tests again for another government office to say yes for them.
#ubuntu-accessibility 2011-04-01
<hajour> so it will happen they say to a heart patient he is able to work 100 %
<hajour> whit sometimes causes even dead 
<hajour> because that person will get work by example harbour
<hajour> whit heavy lifting
<hajour> then i understand the thoughts do i want take that risk .answer yes because nothing is more worse to stand your whole life at side from the road and never can join
<hajour> so its the same where you live charlie-tca 
<charlie-tca> Yes, it seems much the same
<charlie-tca> Doctor says "you can not work". then government doctors have to do all the testing again, to say "you can not work". Then another set of government doctors do all the testing again.
<charlie-tca> Then you get enough money to be broke, and it takes at least two years of not working, and if you have money in the bank, you can not get money from the government.
<hajour> btw i meant i was write earlier in chat here.i go hold petition to give the government a push in right direction to make internet at least from goverment sides accessible for all people.and even if i must walk a week.i go give the list from signs to lenie smit kroes minister from ict department from europe
<charlie-tca> and the government always disapproves the disability application the first time it goes in.
<charlie-tca> Good luck with the petition. 
<hajour> same here charlie-tca 
<hajour> i now how to do it
<hajour> i go pull all organisations from people whit health issues
<hajour> from out so many country s i can reach
<hajour> frrom whole europe
<charlie-tca> that's a lot of work
<hajour> to reach very much people
<hajour> only need to make a mail then only need that mail translated in all europian languages
<hajour> the last part i go look for help here on irc
<hajour> then i go mail all instances
<hajour> it have no use to cry in  the corner.and also not complain by the person under the line
<hajour> i go complain whit thousends voices by the top
<hajour> and if i succeed whit miljon voices
<charlie-tca> I have done some of that, it just gets me too tired to keep pushing it now.
<hajour> miljons
<charlie-tca> millions
<hajour> i go pull press and television to
<hajour> yes millions
<hajour> undifined knows people in the press world
<hajour> he have worked there
<charlie-tca> I hope you succeed with that. 
<hajour> just need some help whit translating
<hajour> nothing more
<hajour> o and a video what is usefull for deaf people
<Pendulum> hajour: I don't know where to find it, but I think there are some EU accessibility guidelines somewhere
<charlie-tca> I am tired now and have to go rest
<hajour> you never have to use by example do you task  for government 
<charlie-tca> Hello, Pendulum 
<hajour> ok charlie-tca  good night sleep well
<charlie-tca> Thank you. Get some rest, too.
<hajour> it is not possible to enlarge fonts by that Pendulum 
<hajour> they say do it on paper
<hajour> you get paper whit very long lines and even smaller fonts then on that program from internet by them
<hajour> and so difficult words more then half of netherland not knopw what it means
<hajour> that not only is by that
<Pendulum> hajour: I just mean that I think there are guidelines that the EU has passed. It might be worth researching that as another thing to bring to the government
<hajour> also by forms for asking welfair by job centre  ect
<hajour> UK i go use for good example.why only UK caan do it and not the others?
<hajour> thank you for the info Pendulum 
<hajour> -a
<hajour> if UK can do it then the rest must be able to do that to
<hajour> and some maybe not.but its europe
<hajour> help each other to reach it is accessible
<hajour> what know only happen here is pointing fingers to each other
<hajour> they need to care for it no they
<hajour> we cant do something about it ect
<hajour> whats the use on that
<hajour> only waist of time
<hajour> use time for to improve instead of pointing fingers to each other
<Pendulum> *nods*
<hajour> and that i go say there
<hajour> if you not know how 
<hajour> ask the one who know 
<hajour> trown away that stupid proud
<hajour> and listen
<hajour> its not about who is smarter or better then the other
<hajour> its about to reach a gaol
<hajour> working together
<hajour> do not look at a fancy label
<hajour> look at what someone can do
<hajour> what can you learn from that person or what can you do to help the other so that person can learn it to
<hajour> thats how i see it
<hajour> well thats anyway my thoughts about it
<hajour> do i see it wrong then?
<hajour> looks to me most important to reach together the end goal
<Pendulum> no, I think you have it right
<hajour> btw at the end they will go be better from it.less people in well fair .less help needed because people are able to do so much more them self
<hajour> more growing business more make use of knowledge/skills from people
<hajour> and more pople more happy
<hajour> people
<hajour> growing economics what really use much more knowledge from all kind of people
<hajour> so it seams i go again stirring in the mud to get the mud out so much as possible and get more clear water again
<hajour> mmm maybe that is why they not really like me in meetings by instances.because i listen to others but then i really want to hear a good build understatement and not crap.that i wave away whit a couple of words
<Pendulum> *nods*
<hajour> btw i won on school by my daughter.they not can say nothing anymore.and now finally after 1 and half year she got a dislectis pass and right help
<hajour> they wanted to go rid of here whitout any diploma
<hajour> i not have agreed
<hajour> i have pull inspector of education to look at it so they not good refuse anymore
<hajour> i not easy give up
<hajour> i maybe sometimes fall down but i climb up again to go further
<hajour> even with 3 persons they could not win.because i know very much they not can go rid of me whit lies and false promises
<hajour> btw even if i not would like a person. and i see that person is victim of unjustified i will go say something about it
<hajour> i cant stand unjust-mend
<hajour> uch  i flood whole channel
<hajour> very much
<Pendulum> you're fine, I"m just kinda out of it so not saying much
<hajour> well official flooding is not allowed
<hajour> so i broke the rules
<hajour> but Pendulum  why then not go rest then?
<hajour> you need to care for yourself good Pendulum 
<hajour> if you are more better feeling.i mean less tired
<Pendulum> hajour: flooding is usually when someone pastes in a lot of information. You're just chatting :)
<hajour> nop i talking more alone.it feels a bit like talking to myself a little:)
<hajour> but if you feeling some better againi really would like to talk about that bracelet thing.maybe its also or something like that a solution for me
<hajour> i am now at stadium i cant even not anymore cut my own nails
<hajour> kinda desperate.i want my little independent back i had
<Pendulum> yeah, I have no idea how it would work for you. My problem is that my joints move too much
<Pendulum> so it hold them in place correctly
<Pendulum> *holds
<hajour> power was going less in my left hand half of it
<hajour> and feeling
<hajour> but it going progressing
<hajour> now sometimes my finger by the bindings between bones.my finger go stand in weird position
<hajour> then i push it back again to get it good agin.but that hurts very much
<hajour> its like dislocated fingers
<hajour> sorry needed to translate it first
<Pendulum> okay, then it might help you
<Pendulum> I don't know if the company I bought them from works with anyone outside the US, though
<hajour> ok so it hold your bones on the right place
<Pendulum> yes
<Pendulum> http://www.silverringsplint.com/ is where mine are from
<hajour> that sound good
<hajour> how is the typing going whit that?
<Pendulum> it's slower than it was, but it's good
<Pendulum> things hurt less
<mhall119> hurting less is always good
<hajour> well i am at stage i am willing to try everything
<hajour> i have cried i discovered i could not any more my own nails you know
<hajour> cut my own nails
<hajour> not 1 doctor know where is is caused trough
<hajour> it is
<hajour> i not know where i am fighting against
<hajour> i not know what is coming
<Pendulum> *nods*
<hajour> with cold my fingers go pulling double.then it takes in warm room 3  hours for i get it normal again and can use them
<Pendulum> *nods*
<hajour> :)
<hajour> what that message is?
<hajour> whatmeans global notice?
<mhall119> hajour: it's just freenode staff being funny
<hajour> not know what it means honest say
<hajour> mm link do not work btw
<mhall119> don't worry, it's not really funny anyway
<hajour> well just curious
<hajour> well i just looking for a solution to keep my little independent-mend i have to keep
<hajour> because 1 day i will get work
<hajour> i not have fight to  come to here to let pull me down again by this
<hajour> ye i know i am rebellious. that is said to my thousands of times
<hajour> my=me
<hajour> mhall119,  correct me if i remember wrong.but was you from edubuntu to or whas that someone else?
<hajour> just remember something 
<hajour> i need to do
<hajour> and it was from edubuntu
<mhall119> hajour: I've been involved with edubuntu, yes
<hajour> btw Pendulum you maybe take better some rest?
<hajour> ok then i am right
<hajour> ok i wanted to ask you something.can you keep contact with jacky fot to care speechcontrol also works on edubuntu?
<Pendulum> hajour: yeah, I'm heading off now.
<Pendulum> hajour: g'night
<hajour> ok Pendulum  take care for yourself ok ?:)
<Pendulum> I"m trying :)
<hajour> goodnight Pendulum  and thanks for the link
<hajour> oeps fogot toput inname again mhall119 ^
<hajour> see lines above
<hajour> if we got good accessibility programs i can get 18 schools convince to use edubuntu primary schools
<hajour> all depends on that 
<hajour> but first i need to resolve laptop problem from jacky
<hajour> and best would be.i have speechcontrol working for begin july
<hajour> else i need to wait a whole year
<hajour> they sign contracts whit company for programs for a year you see
<hajour> if all go good .whit that schools i can work on the other schools here in province friesland from netherland
<hajour> yepi not have forget it i use tomboy very usable
<hajour> mhall119, ^
<mhall119> hajour: sadly I haven't been able to do much with edubuntu this cycle
<mhall119> you'd be better off asking stgraber or highvoltage over in #edubuntu
<hajour> who i can contact the best from edubuntu mhall119 
<mhall119> either stgraber or highvoltage
<mhall119> but this close to the release of 11.04, any new packages like speechcontrol will probably have to wait until 11.10
<hajour> pfew will they kick me out.because it looks like flooding my way of chatting here
<mhall119> :(
<hajour> yes i know mmm
<mhall119> it's not like them to kick anybody out
<hajour> also it need to go work on electronic schoolboards to.
<hajour> so i would like close working together you see
<mhall119> the smartboards?  I don't know how well they are supported on Linux
<hajour> yes
<hajour> heads together is knowing more
<hajour> mhall119,  primary schools use edubuntu it will can cause a chain reaction.to high schools ect
<hajour> from schools to company s
<hajour> children from today are the grown up from tomorrow
<hajour> o o its already 2:32 night. oops i had promise go try sleep early
<hajour> first time i am glad undifined have forgot tolog back in again on IRC XD
<hajour> so i just not go tell
<hajour> welli gotry anyway
<hajour> very hard
<hajour> i just everytime flapout right away
<hajour> i am a terrible liar.i simply almost not can lie
<hajour> and sometimes that is not very handy
<hajour> i sometimes forget things.but not on purpose.well i better not go even try btw.because i not will succeed anyway
<hajour> well i go try to come half way my promise
<hajour> i go to sleep
<hajour> good night all or have fun for who it is day
<hajour> o last thing
<hajour> mhall119, if it is good i will come  to edubuntu channel tomorrow
<hajour> but was wondering which time would be the best to come also
<mhall119> I think both those guys are on US/Eastern time
<hajour> utc?
<hajour> not have a cleu that means
 * hajour yawns
<hajour> well i willfigure that out later i am tired now
<hajour> good night aand thanks for the help mhall119 
<hajour> -a
<hajour> ah just could read the link after put in odt and enlarge it.found it funny XD
<hajour> good night all
<hajour> -RichiH-   
<hajour> see above
<Pendulum> just discovered that a whole bunch of people on a disability-related forum I'm on use Ubuntu. Maybe I'll pick up some recruits from there :)
<Nafai> Pendulum: Yay!
<cprofitt> hey Pendulum 
<Pendulum> hiya
<AlanBell> 16:41 < pitti>   * unity a11y: Now defaults to the classic GNOME session for the a11y profiles which need screen reading; this means the remaining Unity a11y issues are  now out of the critical path.
<AlanBell> from the release meeting today
<Pendulum> Yeah, I knew that was happening except no one seems to have said anything about non screen reading profiles!
<Pendulum> TheMuso: are we really only defaulting back to classic GNOME only for screen reading profiles or will we for onscreen keyboard profiles as well?
<AlanBell> I am a bit surprised at the lack of onscreen keyboard fixing in this cycle
<AlanBell> given all the utouch excitement and iPad type devices
 * Pendulum adds that comment to the dash bug
<Pendulum> well, just highlighted it, hopefully
<pleia2> Pendulum: sorry for never blogging about it, I still have a half finished blog post which ened up taking a political turn so I went to hide
<Pendulum> pleia2: it's okay :)
<pleia2> it's hard for me to talk about unity
<Pendulum> *nods*
<pleia2> also, reading "That's OK, because we have the Classic desktop fallback in Natty, but will not in Oneiric." came as a surprise to me (maybe I just haven't been paying attention?)
<pleia2> I assume it's due to gnome3?
<AlanBell> it came as a surprise to a number of people last night
<charlie-tca> +1
<Pendulum> also surprised me
<Pendulum> I assume it's due to Unity 2D
<Pendulum> which could really break accessibility
<charlie-tca> Have to wonder what the nvidia cards are going to use, if they don't need the fallback
<pleia2> easy to keep gnome2 on the cd for now, but gnome3 is probably bigger and not so happily-living-togeter with unity
<Pendulum> since I don't think the announcement that Gnome 3 is being delayed by 6 months was an April Fools
<charlie-tca> yup
 * pleia2 hugs charlie-tca and xubuntu
 * charlie-tca thinks xubuntu is so much easier now
<pleia2> 11.04 is very nice
<charlie-tca> Of course, it will change too, when Xfce 4.10 comes along with accessibility built in
<pleia2> (and yes, I understand how important accessiblity is on the flagship ubuntu is, you guys rock for fighting this battle :))
<pleia2> charlie-tca: nice!
<UndiFineD> pleia2, last UDS was already about what to remove from the install cd, I thing for 11.10 we will have to move to DVD
<Pendulum> UndiFineD: they talk about what to remove from the install cd every UDS
<Pendulum> or at least, it's been discussed at the last 3
<AlanBell> that is what the app review board does
<AlanBell> cuts stuff and includes stuff
<AlanBell> gimp got cut :(
<AlanBell> but other stuff gets in :)
<charlie-tca> Yes, specifically so that it fits the cd
<charlie-tca> There is also a dvd available, but for many countries, cd is big enough to have to download. Many people don't have the bandwidth for the dvd
<pleia2> I'm probably 100 years old, but I still have computers w/o dvd roms
<charlie-tca> I upgraded mine in the last year; just replaced the cd drive with a dvd drive
<UndiFineD> pleia2, mine hasnt either ... blueray
 * charlie-tca did that as the drives burned out, though
<charlie-tca> hm, if screen-reader installation is now using classic-gnome, my whole test case is invalid. 
<charlie-tca> Pendulum: I ran both screen-reader and high-contrast tests this last week
<charlie-tca> and keep trying to get dasher and onboard fixed, too
<charlie-tca> Got to keep trying, right?
<UndiFineD> well, your work is not for nothing, you build the test case and it would be reusable for next release
<charlie-tca> yeah, true
<Pendulum> less work for next cycle :P
<charlie-tca> the problem is I built a test case to not use unity, converted it to unity, and now have to build a new one without unity
<Pendulum> can some of it be used for Classic Gnome testing as well?
<charlie-tca> no
<charlie-tca> Well, maybe
<Pendulum> and you don't have a copy of your original non-unity one?
<charlie-tca> nope
<charlie-tca> didn't need that one no more
<charlie-tca> Wait, maybe I do. I sent it to skaet, maybe I have the message.
<AlanBell> I was just getting Unity running to test with Orca and other stuff
<AlanBell> but that is a bit pointless I guess
<AlanBell> although maybe not
<charlie-tca> for now
<AlanBell> the orca *installer* puts you in classic gnome
<charlie-tca> That was just changed yesterday
<charlie-tca> It has been using unity if it is supported by the system
<AlanBell> but if ubuntu is installed by a sighted person someone could just start orca with unity running
<charlie-tca> However, the whole point of Unity is the prettyness, which is not there if you can not see it
<charlie-tca> and orca does work with unity running. I have been using it for a while 
<charlie-tca> but we also need to test the rest of the options under F5 on the desktop cd
<charlie-tca> We need all the options working
<Pendulum> god I wish I had a spare machine to test on :-/
<charlie-tca> I will keep testing them, and passing the test cases down to here. Getting more people trying it really helps, though
<charlie-tca> It never occurred to me to try orca in VBox, for example. I knew the install wouldn't go to unity, so I didn't use it.
<AlanBell> ah, I think the onscreen keyboards are a consequence of Unity sitting outside of compiz
<AlanBell> they need a new onscreen keyboard I think
<AlanBell> that runs in the unity layer
<Pendulum> oh dear
<AlanBell> well that isn't neccessarily a bad thing
<Pendulum> it's another project
<AlanBell> a new really awesome keyboard, like a phone or tablet keyboard, maybe like swype would be a good thing
<Pendulum> and it means 2 actually because Unity 2D and Unity 3D
<AlanBell> compiz powered keyboard of awesome
<Pendulum> which are under the hood completely different
<AlanBell> probably, yes
<Pendulum> and getting someone to do it in the next 6 months
<Pendulum> (since we apparently lose classic Gnome with Oneiric
<Pendulum> )
<JanC> eh, Unity is sitting inside Compiz, not outside?
<AlanBell> JanC: well kinda
<AlanBell> all the compiz effects don't affect unity
<AlanBell> yay, effect and affect used correctly in one sentence \o/
<maco> ^_^
<JanC> AlanBell: which is exactly because it is not a window managed by compiz  âº
<AlanBell> so zoom, colour filters, workspace zoom etc all don't touch unity
<AlanBell> yes, that is what I meant
<AlanBell> and I expect that is why keyboard input events don't go to unity
<AlanBell> waah, alt+click anywhere on a window and drag doesn't work
<JanC> I suppose compiz "windows" are by default handled differently because otherwise effects would be applied recursively   ;)
<AlanBell> well it is so that the workspace switcher doesn't zoom out the sidebar along with the workspaces
<JanC> maybe it would be better if they would turn the UI panels etc. into "normal" windows/applications again, and only use compiz to handle effects...
<JanC> and workspace handling in unity is broken anyway  :-(
<Pendulum> AlanBell: charlie-tca, was I just mocked on that bug?
<pleia2> I don't think so, he asked jono to look at it
<Pendulum> ok
<pleia2> 11:56:58 < grantbow> jono: thanks for looking at that bug. I agree with pleia2 there's an issue there.
<pleia2> 11:59:15 < jono> grantbow, pleia2 I suspect this will be bumped to Ocelot - I agree with Mark that this does not inhibit the Ubuntu experience for a11y reasons, the classic mode still exists, but it will make Unity suck
<Pendulum> pleia2: thanks :)
<Pendulum> I got thrown off by the april fools reference
<pleia2> yeah, I had to read it a couple times
<pleia2> I think he was calling Unity itself a joke on tablets
<Pendulum> yeah, I couldn't tell which way he meant it
<charlie-tca> That isn't in the bug report, though
<charlie-tca> I couldn't tell either, and took it as a negative comment to the bug itself
<AlanBell> Pendulum: I was going to ask him what he meant by that
<AlanBell> I didn't think he was mocking you, I just didn't understand his point
<Pendulum> it's rather disappointing that Unity is crap on tablets since visually it reminds me much more of a tablet interfact than a regular computer one
<pleia2> yeah :\
<Pendulum> *interface
<charlie-tca> Well, at least accessibility is not taking the back seat all the time, right?
<Pendulum> haha
<AlanBell> I *think* he was saying unity doesn't work well on touchscreens anyway, which surprises me
<charlie-tca> We got real good visibility now, let's keep that going, at least.
<pleia2> :)
<Pendulum> AlanBell: there've been a couple things I've heard about the launcher hiding without mouseover?
<AlanBell> ooh, yes it will do that
<AlanBell> I only just figured out that to get it back you put the mouse on the top left pixel of the screen
<AlanBell> which is a bit hard in virtualbox as the mouse isn't constrained
<Pendulum> in much better news for today, baseball season started last night! (and the first red sox game of the season is in 30 minutes \o/ )
<pleia2> baseball \o/
<Pendulum> sorry, I know unrelated, but I love baseball!
<pleia2> :)
<Pendulum> and the sox should be very happy that they're playing in Texas
<Pendulum> it's cold and snowy in NE
<TheMuso> Pendulum: Only for blindness related profiles, but we can also for on-screen keyboard profiles if people so wish.
<Pendulum> TheMuso: well, right not it looks like the onscreen keyboard doesn't work for Unity...
<TheMuso> Thats interesting, I thought onboard worked at the X layer. If thats the case, I'll switch that profile too.
<Pendulum> TheMuso: it works on some, but not on everything. can't search for apps, for example
<Pendulum> charlie-tca: ^^
<TheMuso> Ah ok.
<charlie-tca> yes, might be best to switch it
<charlie-tca> No Onbaord or dasher can use the search in the dash
<charlie-tca> dash closes on any keypress not directly on it
<TheMuso> Right, just read backscroll.
<TheMuso> We really need unity and compiz playing nice for things like eZoom.
<TheMuso> And if even onboard can't enter into search fields, then we are starting to really get screwed with the architecture.
<charlie-tca> yup
<charlie-tca> bug 739812
<ubot2> Launchpad bug 739812 in unity "Must use hardware keyboard to perform search for applications in Unity" [Critical,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/739812
<TheMuso> yeah have seen that bug.
<TheMuso> Damn it. My monitor has developed an intermitant blue line down the middle. THis is a desktop monitor, and I've had it for almost 5 years...
<TheMuso> A connectino is starting to go heywire I think.
<maco> a big line or one small enough to ignore?
<TheMuso> One in such a position that I notice it and it distracts me.
<TheMuso> Its all the way from the top to the bottom.
<TheMuso> And probably 1-20 pixels wide, give or take.
<TheMuso> Actually, probably 5-10 but still.
<Nafai> TheMuso: Hey man, get my email a few weeks ago?
<TheMuso> Nafai: Yeah I did, but have been rather busy, so it slipped my mind sorry.
<TheMuso> Nafai: Heh I can't even remember what speech synth I was talking about last year, there have been a few that have popped up over the years.
<Nafai> no problem, completely understand given the release and such
<TheMuso> bbiab getting breakfast.
<Nafai> I really need to understand how to use and configure magnification, as my vision has been getting worse lately, but I'm completely useless at using the stuff with Orca
<maco> i might be able to help with kmag
<Nafai> will that work on top of Gnome?  (I assume kmag is a KDE tool)
<Nafai> I don't need an extreme amount of magnification, just be able to toggle it off and on in certain cases
<maco> yes it should
<maco> i think itd work best with tiling window managers, but most people don't use them. 
<maco> i set it to "follow mouse mode" and make its window smaller (like 1/4 of the screen) and then that window holds a zoomed view of what's around your mouse
<TheMuso> Nafai: compiz has an ezoom plugin which you can configure with keybindings to zoom in/out
<maco> (the reason i think tiling is great for magnifiers is that the magnifier covers part of a maximised window, otherwise)
<Nafai> TheMuso: oh yeah, I had forgot that
<charlie-tca> Pendulum: I thought the blog was due this week, but it is not due until next week. I will try to get one out to you this weekend
<Pendulum> charlie-tca: no worries
<AlanBell> I want to include a half decent video of the screen reader install in the Daniela blog post
<Pendulum> AlanBell: do that tomorrow?
<AlanBell> hopefully
<AlanBell> you saw my last attempt
<AlanBell> I did fully install Natty today
<charlie-tca> Won't that install you wrote for the help wiki work with classic-gnome?
<TheMuso> AlanBell: I suspect the only inaccessible part of the installer is the bits that use webkit.
<charlie-tca> I thought the installer worked fine, it is unity that takes work :-)
<TheMuso> Oh and for oneiric, I have some ideas as to how we can make selecting an accessibility profile much easier.
<charlie-tca> As long as you start with unity, it works, anyway. It is when it switches to the other session, on the blind user, that it causes issues.
<charlie-tca> TheMuso: that would be nice, too
<TheMuso> charlie-tca: What do you mean exactly?
<TheMuso> re switching
<charlie-tca> If your video card is not supported, you start trying to hit shortcut keys that only work for unity.
<TheMuso> Thats why I patched orca to tell the user what environment they are in.
<charlie-tca> On the other hand, if you expect it to start classic-gnome and it starts unity, you hit the wrong keys again. 
<TheMuso> It should tell you on startup, if it gets cut off, use orca key + e to state it again.
<charlie-tca> Yeah, I didn't realize that when I did the test case for QA
<AlanBell> TheMuso: there are a number of bits in the installer that suck
<AlanBell> like orca trying to pronounce language names like francais
<maco> how does that come out?
<TheMuso> Well thats a bit hard to solve.
<AlanBell> and it gets really nasty for non-latin characters
<TheMuso> Orca doesn't exactly do dynamic language changing or anything like that.
<AlanBell> yeah I know
<AlanBell> there are some dubious radio button names as well
<AlanBell> when choosing whether to nuke the partitions or upgrade or whatever
<TheMuso> hrm ok, will have to have another look at those.
<TheMuso> When I had a run through a few weeks back, I don't remember having a problem with the partitioning stuff.
<AlanBell> we are going to do a session on it tomorrow in the global jam to file bugs
<AlanBell> http://blip.tv/file/4958226
<AlanBell> that does include me being stupid several times
<TheMuso> ok
#ubuntu-accessibility 2011-04-02
<AlanBell> hi all
<AlanBell> in our LoCo global jam we are going through the natty screenreader install (and maybe some other a11y install options)
<AlanBell> and filing bugs
<AlanBell> starting at 16:00 UK time, which is  in 1:30 from now
<AlanBell> we are using mumble audio conferencing on the mumble.libertus.co.uk server
<AlanBell> charlie-tca: can I have the link to your test script again please
<charlie-tca> AlanBell: http://testcases.qa.ubuntu.com/Install/DesktopAccessibility
<AlanBell> thakns
<AlanBell> step 4 is wrong
<AlanBell> F5 3 enter *down* enter
<charlie-tca> just hitting 3 fails now?
<AlanBell> otherwise you are on the "try" rather than "install" option
<charlie-tca> At the cd menu, right?
<AlanBell> hitting 3 is ok, but you want it to start ubiquity rather than boot to the desktop
<charlie-tca> F5, screen-reader is the third item
<AlanBell> yes
<AlanBell> then enter to select it
<AlanBell> then *down*
<charlie-tca> no, it will automatically start orca even on the live cd
<AlanBell> yes, but it is hard to get to the installer
<charlie-tca> If you select install at that point, much of the rest is also wrong, 
<charlie-tca> since it was written to interact with the live deskjto\
<charlie-tca> desktop, in unity
<charlie-tca> The whole install will fail if it defaults now to classic-gnome, too
<AlanBell> ok
<AlanBell> I just did another video with more success than the last one
<AlanBell> http://www.google.com/experimental/ nice
#ubuntu-accessibility 2011-04-03
<AlanBell> monthly report time 
 * UndiFineD reports that AlanBell has been riding toy trains
<AlanBell> choo choo
<UndiFineD> had fun today ?
<AlanBell> yup
<AlanBell> bug 749642
<ubot2> Launchpad bug 749642 in casper "no audio cue to assist getting to menu for accessibility options" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/749642
<AlanBell> bug 749646
<ubot2> Launchpad bug 749646 in casper ""space enter F5 3 enter down enter" is not a discoverable key sequence for the screen reader install" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/749646
<AlanBell> bug 749649
<ubot2> Launchpad bug 749649 in ubiquity "screen reader install is not welcoming" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/749649
<charlie-tca> heh
<charlie-tca> I like that
<AlanBell> bug 749653
<ubot2> Launchpad bug 749653 in ubiquity "radio buttons in partitioning page of installer have horrible names for orca to read" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/749653
<AlanBell> bug 749659
<ubot2> Launchpad bug 749659 in ubiquity "installer wizard pages not labled for orca to read" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/749659
<AlanBell> bug 749662
<ubot2> Launchpad bug 749662 in ubiquity "no audio feedback that the install has actually started" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/749662
<AlanBell> bug 749671
<ubot2> Launchpad bug 749671 in ubiquity ""Detect keyboard layout" is invisible to orca" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/749671
<AlanBell> Bug #749695 
<ubot2> Launchpad bug 749695 in ubiquity ""eject media and press return to reboot" is not read out" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/749695
<AlanBell> bug 749691
<ubot2> Launchpad bug 749691 in ubiquity ""Ubiquity slideshow HTML content!" is the last part of the screen reader install" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/749691
<AlanBell> bug 749700
<ubot2> Launchpad bug 749700 in orca "Default button should be "help"" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/749700
<AlanBell> I think that is enough for now
<AlanBell> popey: ^^
<popey> heh
<charlie-tca> If you use static ip's you have to use the live desktop, so you can set your IP address for internet to work. One of the rreasons I go through try instead of install
<AlanBell> interesting point
<AlanBell> I think I would go for the "just install the thing" without internet route then fix networking on first boot
<charlie-tca> If you know which desktop session to expect, it is always easier to find the icon/install app in the menu
#ubuntu-accessibility 2012-03-26
<DomasoFan> hi all. anyone knows if there is still the problem to get access to the unity 2d panel part where the status information is sitting and the volume, wireless lan and bluetooth is lucated?
<DomasoFan> oops. my english seems to be a little bit broken today. *lol*
<jbicha> DomasoFan: Alt+F10 doesn't work for you?
<DomasoFan> that works. thanks. whats sometimes difficult currently i have the feeling the launcher which you open with the windows/super key does sometimes not disapear when you hit it again or hit escape.
<jbicha> yeah, there's something wrong with the way the Windows key shortcuts work at the moment
<DomasoFan> seems also alt+f4 has issues sometimes. seems not to close the windows sometimes. just saw in the settings window.
<DomasoFan> but those shortcuts affect us and the sighted alike so that should be fixed anyway. but the good thing is that accessibility works now quite well in unity 2d again.
#ubuntu-accessibility 2012-03-27
<DomasoFan> hi all.
<DomasoFan> anyone found that one? currently in ubuntu 12.04 with all updates it seems that LibreOffice Writer seems to some issues when navigating through text. it says blank and repeats the line its landing 2 times.
<w0jrl> I have noticed this as well.
<w0jrl> Does anyone know if the Pidgin script was removed from Orca? I'm running 12.04, and there is no Pidgin tab in the Orca custom preferences for Pidgin.
#ubuntu-accessibility 2012-03-28
<Fudge> anyone use webvisim and firefox? I have ntoiced often orca reads the  webvisim menu to me and I have to tab out of it, yet I have not right clicked the page and do not believe that it is displayed on the screen anywhere otherwise.
<Fudge> when i restart lightdm speech-dispatcher goes to 100%, precise all updates
<jalcine> For those curious: http://www.jackyalcine.co.cc/blog/2012/03/speak-to-me-willis-speechcontrol-and-linux/
<Fudge> hi
<loganville> quick question, I'm having issues with the visual alert full screen flash in 12.04, could you tell me where to look for logs?
<loganville> I tried asking in the #ubuntu+1 channel yesterday but didn't get a response, I didn't see anything in launchpad either
<AlanBell> it is broken
<AlanBell> but loganville is gone
<skaet> AlanBell,  FYI:  looks like we've got some problems with access to ubiquity page titles, which will impact those needing the screen reader to do an install.  Its being noted in the technical overview. 
<skaet> Visually impaired users should refrain from installing this beta,  the screen reader is unable to access the ubiquity page titles. (Bug:965349)
<skaet> Does anyone know of any bugs in the accessibility area that need to be resolved before final?
<AlanBell> hi skaet I will do a bit of a re-test at the weekend (maybe before)
<AlanBell> it was a bit of a mess last time I tried
<skaet> thanks AlanBell.   Would like to get it usable for the release, but we need to know about those bugs to have a hope.
<Dave_H> Which Precise beta should visually-impaired users download?  I tried yesterday's Current, and could not get a Ubuntu-2d session  
#ubuntu-accessibility 2012-03-29
<charline_> Pendulum, hello
 * Dave_H is downloading the Precise Desktop I386 daily build of Beta 2, dated 3/29.
<Dave_H> Any a11y show-stoppers in this one, for people who need Orca?  
<Dave_H> Does anyone have a link to an accessible version of the Beta 2, announced today?  
<TheMuso> Dave_H: What do you mean by accessible? Just grab beta 2.
<Dave_H> I grabbed from cdimage.ubuntu.com/dailylive for today; tried the precise-desktop-i386.  
<Dave_H> I never get chance to choose an accessible session; system comes up to ubuntu 3d, and I have to manually start orc.
<Dave_H> orca
<Dave_H> No drums at login prompt or music after login ever sound.  
<TheMuso> Hrm ok. Let me test the beta on another machine here.
<TheMuso> grrr went offline and I didn't notice. :S
<charles>  /msg TheMuso, ping. You were great helping me to understand some accessibility issues in indicator-power about a month ago, so I thought of you when I saw this ticket today: https://bugs.launchpad.net/indicator-session/+bug/960999 :)
<ubot2> Launchpad bug 960999 in indicator-session "In indicator session user menu have a silent menu item" [High,Triaged]
<charles> TheMuso: I was wondering if you have time to take a look at it and, if so, if it's repeatable for you
<charles> hm, looks like I oops'ed on /msg, oh well :)
#ubuntu-accessibility 2012-03-30
<TheMuso> charles: No matter, you still got my attention. :)
<TheMuso> Will take a look.
<AlanBell> popey: hi
<AlanBell> did you find it booting to unity3d?
<popey> AlanBell: yes, i updated the bug and pitti has tagged it
<AlanBell> great, thanks
<AlanBell> just done a video of the live CD (or USB)
<AlanBell> uploading to youtube now
<AlanBell> bug 969566
<ubot2> Launchpad bug 969566 in casper "drums play too soon as ubiquity starts, it isn't ready for the ctrl+s to start orca" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/969566
#ubuntu-accessibility 2012-03-31
<IvanFetch> I have noticed that capslock still functions like capslock, even though it is used as an Orca modifier key. Is this a known issue? Is there something I am supposed to do to cause capslock to only act as an Orca modifier?
<AlanBell> IvanFetch: it is used as an orca modifier key in "laptop" mode
<AlanBell> IvanFetch: http://library.gnome.org/users/orca/stable/howto_the_orca_modifier.html.en
<AlanBell> to get caps lock when in laptop mode it should be capslock-backspace-capslock
<AlanBell> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GbvncFwCkmA video of the installer
<AlanBell> lightdm is basically working OK with orca now
<webczat> Hello, why I can't access the language support window?
<AlanBell> hi webczat, which language support window is that?
<webczat> AlanBell: the one in settings
<AlanBell> that pops up a silent window loading additional languages
<AlanBell> and another one saying the language support is not installed completely
<AlanBell> hi return and the gksudo dialog pops up for installing language packs
<AlanBell> then another silent dialog saying that it could not install the full launchage support
<AlanBell> then back to the slient languages dialog
<AlanBell> which doesn't appear to be keyboard navigable
<AlanBell> webczat: I will do a video and bug report of that later, it looks to be totally broken
<webczat> hemm I'm not sure how that's possible that this has not been discovered through two ubuntu versions?
<AlanBell> well it has been discovered now :)
<AlanBell> there might already be a bug report about it
<webczat> what with lightdm accessibility and unity3d?
<webczat> I think orca starts in lightdm but I am not sure about all of this... and I am not sure about unity3d as I don't have 3d in my vm and in my host.
<IvanFetch> AlanBell: I am using the laptop keyboard layout, and my Orca modifier is set to capslock, but I have noticed that capslock becomes enabled when I am working in terminal. Perhaps I end up pressing capslock - backspace - capslock by accident, while using flat review mode and typing command-lines. I'll be more aware of this next time, and come back here with feedback.
<Dave_H> Not sure the caps lock gets turned on, but, the voice gets stuck in 'upper-case' pitch.  
<AlanBell> lightdm is working reasonably now webczat, it reads the name of the person you are entering the password for and doesn't read your password out loud
<IvanFetch> Dave_H: Capslock does get turned on - text typed in terminal is upper-case; causing commands to be invalid since they are case sensative.
#ubuntu-accessibility 2012-04-01
<webczat> Hello.
<webczat> Can anyone confirm that going to the login window and starting orca preferences then pressing cancel doesn't allow returning to the login window?
<webczat> It's useful to set orca prefs in the login window to switch languages, for example.
<webczat> ?
<AlanBell> hi webczat 
<AlanBell> webczat: how do I get to orca preferences from the login window?
<AlanBell> starting and stopping orca on lightdm seems to cause focus issues
<webczat> AlanBell: ins+space
<webczat> if you would resolve focus and timing issues it would be all great. about timing issues there are the cases (only on virtualbox) that orca does not start after login.
<webczat> not always, it's pretty random. starting it then from the terminal works.
<AlanBell> ok, reproduced that one
<webczat> it's the same thing I've reported before, also true for livecd I think. probably a timing issue somehow.
<AlanBell> it puts focus back on the orca window itself which is not normally on screen
<AlanBell> I then shut down orca and restarted it, and it will read the top panel but not the usernames and passwords
<webczat> AlanBell: first, orca should start with disabled main window on login. second, all orca settings should probably be moved to the gdm settings too. third, the synthesizer's language should be set somehow (it's the bug valid from 10.04)
<AlanBell> I am uploading a bunch of videos of orca and various bits of Ubuntu
<webczat> also I see that unity likes to crash when interacting with orca, does not always properly react and can even crash orca itself I think
<webczat> I know it's daily so it's less of a problem.
<webczat> ohh for example: launch orca/login... press the windows key, then go to programs and press enter... then type something in the search box, then press down arrow to hear that some programs are available. go further down, you will see those few programs that it has shown. press up, expand the program list, press down... the list is not updated or orca does not see it.
<webczat> I could give you further instructions
<webczat> if you would want to reproduce that one
 * webczat starts ubuntu himself
<webczat> erm also does the new gdm 3.4 or something have any key to invoke the screenreader?
<webczat> anyway let's see if orca starts. it probably will not
<webczat> this is pretty serious
<webczat> ee how sweet... it didn't
<webczat> Ohh!
<webczat> ** (orca:2988): WARNING **: at-spi: Got no message at atspi-accessible.c line 674
<webczat> I get many many many many of those
<Pendulum> webczat: for things you've reported, do you have bug numbers?
<webczat> Actually at this time I'm not sure about: where's the ubuntu bugzilla, and sometimes where to actually report it. Also I do not have enough info.
<webczat> Now I'm not sure, for example, if the bug with orca not starting is ubuntu, gnome in general or just orca specific, and I'm trying to find what causes it.
<webczat> ohh. and now I cannot enter the menu. hrhr
<webczat> for example... I am not sure how to get the cause of orca not starting unless it would be reproduced after few tries in the terminal
<webczat> does ubuntu lts update orca when updates arrive?
<webczat> I mean usually
<JanC> webczat: I think Orca is part of GNOME, so I suppose it gets updated together with the rest of GNOME
<webczat> I meant non-major updates
<AlanBell> webczat: we can request updates of orca if there are fixes we want in it, or the fixes can be backported to the version we have
<AlanBell> the installer http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GbvncFwCkmA
<AlanBell> the panel http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B-lgHqBesYE
<AlanBell> oh I need to rotate that one
<AlanBell> lightdm http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q20LbvRF0BE
<AlanBell> rotation needed again
<AlanBell> hud and dash and launcher http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZiP0Bd8xWY4
<AlanBell> I will do some more of the bugs webczat has been finding (lightdm focus issues and languages area of system settings) when I get my phone back off the kids who are playing angry birds on it
<tallboy_2> I was referred to this channel by #ubuntu.  Is there any way of getting the Zoom Desktop feature to work in Ubuntu 11.04 if compiz doesn't work with my Intel graphics card?  It worked in 10.10 just fine. Thanks in advance.  
<jbicha_> tallboy_2: metacity/Unity 2D doesn't support zoom, so unless you can get Compiz to work I think you'll be out of luck
<tallboy_2> jbicha:  In that case, is there a magnifier option?  I need some kind of zoom as I am legally blind.
<jbicha_> tallboy_2: try opening System Settings. Click Universal Access and change Text Size to Larger
<AlanBell> tallboy_2: I am surprised 3d doesn't work on an intel card
<AlanBell> tallboy_2: lspci |grep VGA
<AlanBell> can you type that in a terminal then paste in the line you get which will be the details of your graphics card
<tallboy_2> Intel Corporation 82845G/GL[Brookdale-G]/GE Chipset Integrated Graphics Device (rev 01)
<AlanBell> well that does appear to be a funny one :(
<tallboy_2> Funny as in how? I added the ppa:xorg-edgers/ppa for the latest graphics driver to see if that would help, but it didn't.  
<AlanBell> most of the intel chips just work, but I am seeing lots of people with that chipset and problems with it on google
<AlanBell> there were a few that stopped working around Hardy, but I thought things were just getting better for most graphics cards
<AlanBell> if this was working with compiz and now is not then that is a regression and should be reported as a bug
<AlanBell> can you try the 12.04 live CD?
<tallboy_2> I just did a fresh install of 11.04.  I'll have to download the 12.04 .iso first.  I guess it's worth a shot.  If not, I'll have to revert back to Maverick.
<AlanBell> http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/daily-live/current/
<AlanBell> there are a few basic magnifiers that are not the compiz one but they are not very good
<AlanBell> gnome-shell is getting a new magnifier but I am not sure how good that will be
<AlanBell> using openGL to magnify the screen just seems to be the right approach to the problem, compiz zoom is fast and smooth when it works
<tallboy_2> Yea, zoom was a nice feature... easy and quick to use.
<jbicha_> AlanBell: you can try out the gnome-shell magnifier now, it's included in 3.4
<tallboy_2> I should be able to "run" the liveCD without installing to see if this works, correct?  Or would installing be a better bet?  It doesn't matter to me either way, nothing important saved on internal hdd.
<AlanBell> jbicha_: does that run without gnome-shell?
<AlanBell> tallboy_2: you should be able to run from the live CD, if the drivers are there it will just work, if they are not then installing won't be any better!
<tallboy_2> Ok, question while waiting for download to complete, is there a way to force Unity to work with my current version?  
<jbicha_> AlanBell: I believe it's built into GNOME Shell/mutter
<AlanBell> tallboy_2: you can't force compiz to run if it doesn't want to
<AlanBell> jbicha_: right, so it won't work with unity2d then
<tallboy_2> AlanBell:  I guess I can try the magnifiers you say are available outside of compiz.  Which one do you recommend to be worth a shot?
<tallboy_2> AlanBell:  I'll burn image now and try 12.04.  I'll report back.  Thanks again for the help
<AlanBell> tallboy_2: I went throught the magnifiers in the software centre a while back, I don't remember the names but none of them excited me
<AlanBell> tallboy_2: do let me know how you get on
<AlanBell> there is some experimental code for doing text cursor tracking with compiz zoom, but it needs a bit more work on it
<AlanBell> night all o/
<tallboy_2> night
#ubuntu-accessibility 2013-03-25
<Fudge> AlanBell  hi, was trying to find info on ezoom
#ubuntu-accessibility 2013-03-28
<jsgarvin> Hi all.   I'm a web developer that's trying to get more familiar with screen readers to make sites I work on more accessible.  I'm on ubuntu 12.04 and am able to fire up Orca, but can't seem to get it to read much more than it's own preferences dialog.  I can't get it to read anything in Firefox.  In Chrome, it will read the titles of the tabs, and the text in the address bar.  But I can't seem to figure out how to get i
#ubuntu-accessibility 2013-03-29
<jsgarvin> i all.   I'm a web developer that's trying to get more familiar with screen readers to make sites I work on more accessible.  I'm on ubuntu 12.04 and am able to fire up Orca, but can't seem to get it to read much more than it's own preferences dialog.  I can't get it to read anything in Firefox.  In Chrome, it will read the titles of the tabs, and the text in the address bar.  But I can't seem to figure out how to get it
#ubuntu-accessibility 2013-03-30
<Fudge> jsgarvin  how are you trying to make orca read? mouse? keyboard?
<Fudge> the most accessibility is by using unity-2d, if you select that from lightdm sessions. Hint: control will halt the screen reading output, sometimes caret needs enabling in mozilla products, f7 in your browser. Usually unless configured otherwise in Orca prefs for mouse hovering one uses the keyboard to arrow, tab, or hot key through the page.
#ubuntu-accessibility 2013-03-31
<Fudge> jsgarvin  how did you go 
#ubuntu-accessibility 2015-03-29
<ruchir> hi
#ubuntu-accessibility 2017-03-31
<b4n> TheMuso: hi!  I'm working on a new speechd module, and the TTS is over-zealous on the SSML syntax (e.g. requires having the xmlns, version and xml:lang tags on the <speak> tag), is there a mean to get speech-dispatcher feeding me with such fully-fledged input?
