#ubuntu-tv 2012-01-03
<tgm4883> Any news on a meeting?
<mhall119> meeting?
<tgm4883> mhall119, I think we need one
<tgm4883> there was talk of one awhile back
<mhall119> must have been a long while back
<mhall119> this channel has been quite for weeks
<MrChrisDruif> Hai everyone
<MrChrisDruif> Just a small question. There are currently TWO!! mailing-lists for Ubuntu TV. I don't think it'll be a good idea to have two. Some people only might find the one mailing-list (e.g. launchpad's one) and not the other (e.g. lists.ubuntu.com's one) and people will only get half the messages.
<MrChrisDruif> AlanBell; popey; mhall119; tgm4883; willcooke; ^
<tgm4883> MrChrisDruif, there are two?
<MrChrisDruif> Yup
<MrChrisDruif> One on our launchpad page (see /topic) and one on lists.ubuntu.com
<tgm4883> so the lists.ubuntu.com one should be deleted
<tgm4883> doesn't look like anything is on it anyway
<MrChrisDruif> I don't know, nor did I want to take some kind of decision on my own. IT'S  NOT A ONE-MAN TEAM! ^_^
<mhall119> tgm4883: lists.u.c is generally recommended
 * tgm4883 shrugs
<tgm4883> willcooke said to use LP, that's where everyone is, doesn't make much sense to try and move everyone to l.u.c
<MrChrisDruif> Ghehe, that's why I was asking.
<willcooke> that other list is an internal one
<willcooke> LP is the proper mailing list
<mhall119> lp is only useful to people on the lp team, the list.u.c is open to anyone to subscribe to
<MrChrisDruif> I was thinking in the back of my head that l.u.c would be preferred
<willcooke> the u.c one will go away
<mhall119> ok, what willcooke said
<mhall119> :)
<willcooke> :)
<mhall119> usually I'm told to do it the other way
<willcooke> When I set them up it wasn't clear to me which was "best", I expect I got it round the wrong way :)
<willcooke> in other news:  http://www.solid-run.com/products/cubox
<mhall119> I think I saw that on G+ a couple weeks ago
<willcooke> It looks like vaporware to me at the moment, hopefully we'll see some units in the real world soon.
<willcooke> It certainly won't run a Myth FE
<willcooke> but I'd be interested in seeing XBMC on it
<MrChrisDruif> Ah, the Cubox
<MrChrisDruif> willcooke; it's ARMv6 if I remember correctly?
<tgm4883> willcooke, I'm unsure if XBMC would run well on those. Does that require gstreamer based playback software?
<tgm4883> for 1080P?
<MrChrisDruif> If we would want Ubuntu ever to be on one of these devices, then they need to change their support from ARMv7+ to ARMv6+
<willcooke> arm 7 say the dodgy looking specs sheet
<tgm4883> so research suggests that XBMC has an ARM version, but IDK how well it works
<tgm4883> Talking with one of the linaro guys at UDS, they said XBMC wouldn't work because you their hardware only worked that well (the 1080p video they were displaying) with gstreamer based software
<tgm4883> IDK enough about XBMC though
<tgm4883> in either case, there probably needs to be a little more direction in this project
<MrChrisDruif> Agreed
<MrChrisDruif> But without Canonical interfering (be it good or bad) also didn't happen, not really
<MrChrisDruif> willcooke; ^
<tgm4883> I know it's early, but willcooke, any updates from the canonical side?
<willcooke> I'm writing a document right now (or rather I was, I'm quitting for the evening seeing as it's 2330) that I hope will answer a few questions and provide some direction
<willcooke> I need to speak to jono and Mark and we'll get something out real soon.
<willcooke> I know you've heard that before
<willcooke> But I really am!
 * MrChrisDruif hopes we'll get the drive back into this project
<MrChrisDruif> I understand willcooke is TL?
<willcooke> TL?
<MrChrisDruif> Team leader
<willcooke> right - yeah, kinda
<willcooke> except there isnt a team
<willcooke> :)
<MrChrisDruif> Well, not in the "standard" developer project type teams
<willcooke> exactly
<willcooke> ok, I gotta scoot
<MrChrisDruif> But still, in any team there should be a driving force and a direction to follow
<willcooke> I'll speak to Jono tomorrow
<MrChrisDruif> Well...at least some apparent progress tgm4883
#ubuntu-tv 2012-01-07
<MrChrisDruif> Alright, who knew about this but didn't say anything? http://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2012/01/ubuntu-powered-tv-to-be-revealed-at-ces/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+d0od+%28OMG%21+Ubuntu%21%29&utm_content=FaceBook
<ogra_> there is also http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-16415136
<popey> hi MrChrisDruif
<MrChrisDruif> Aloha popey ^_^
<MrChrisDruif> How's it going popey ? Wanted to say something ? ^_^
<MrChrisDruif> 'lo?
<popey> MrChrisDruif: I guess we'll have to wait and see!
<MrChrisDruif> Ghehe ^_^
<emulti> been reading about your plans for ubuntu-tv
<emulti> are you guys aware that a lot of large screens (e.g. Samsung) now come with a built in ARM processor that has direct access to the screen
<emulti> example, Samsung DE40
<MrChrisDruif> I am at least in a way
<emulti> these are aimed at digital signage
<emulti> but must have a decent gfx chip so they can play 1080p video
<emulti> and not too expensive...
<emulti> ish..
<emulti> it would solve the problem of having to make a stb and they are distributed worldwide.
<MrChrisDruif> stb?
<emulti> set top box.
<emulti> I work in TV and would like to help you guys
<emulti> these retail for 1000 sterling http://samsunglfd.com/product/feature.do?modelCd=ME46A
<MrChrisDruif> I don't want a stb as well, because I'm one of those minimalist guys ^_^
<emulti> from a purely practical point of view, you don't want to be making, shipping and supporting hardware...
<emulti> perhaps I should ask what the aims of ubuntu-tv are
<MrChrisDruif> emulti; if you have a definitive answer to that, I'd like to hear it as well
<mhall119> emulti: the question is will they run Ubuntu
<mhall119> not all ARM chips are supported
 * ogra_ thinks the first aim is to have something usable in SW ... and then attract a HW vendor 
<ogra_> or several ;)
<popey> +1
<mhall119> a la Android
<ogra_> no matter if its STb or directly builtin
<popey> getting it baked into a lot of tellys is clearly a great plan, but a STB isn't unreasonable in the meantime
<mhall119> stb is also going to be a cheaper upgrade than a new smart tv
<ogra_> right, just have it in both .... and optionally in your phone or so ;)
<mhall119> certainly not the TV version on your phone
<mhall119> ?
<ogra_> so you can attach your phone to a TV dock and use it for ubuntu-tv ;)
<popey> like the atrix?
<mhall119> oh, I understand you
<ogra_> yeah
<mhall119> hmmmm, I do have an HDMI port on my DroidX
<MrChrisDruif> Yeah, but when I buy a TV in a few years time (I hope this one I've got will last me that long) it'll have Ubuntu built-in and not some drunk-ass electronics software smack
<mhall119> somehow I don't see Ubuntu being ported to DroidX though
<ogra_> like the atrix .... but i rather envision an atrix that fires up the respective iface for the matching dock
<mhall119> MrChrisDruif: that would be nice
<popey> yeah
<ogra_> i.e. a tablet dock for a tablet unity
<popey> unplug the phone, carry on watching media on the move
<mhall119> walk into a big-box store and see Ubuntu TVs mounted on the display wall
<popey> plug it back in, get the TV UI
<ogra_> laptop dock for normal unity .... tv dock for tv unity
<mhall119> I don't see why not
<MrChrisDruif> On a tablet?
<popey> or similar dock, but desktop unity kicks in if a keyboard is plugged in
<mhall119> they're already doing a lot of work on detecting a device formfactor based on resolution and other display information
<ogra_> yeah, something like that
<popey> so one dock with usb and hdmi is all thats needed
<popey> (my desktop display has HDMI just like my TV)
<mhall119> popey: you  writing all this down?
<popey> me!?
<ogra_> haha
<ogra_> its saturday !
<mhall119> you're the one with the @ in front of you nick
<ogra_> he's not on duty
<mhall119> he's always on duty
<mhall119> ;)
<ogra_> lol
<popey> heh
<mhall119> unless you're going to  suggest that Canonical employees hang out here on their days off just because they're super excited about these new product developments
 * ogra_ does 
<MrChrisDruif> ogra_; channel is logged ^_^
 * MrChrisDruif says "Keep it up guys!" I'll be back in a bit after some shopping
 * ogra_ also needs to go and care for his car so i can drive to the sprint tomorrow
<popey> I just hope this concept results in a real product
<ogra_> ++
<popey> the guys at CES have their work cut out
<popey> i am _so_ excited by this.
<MrChrisDruif> Me too
<tgm4883> Ubuntu-TV at CES?
<tgm4883> if that's true, kinda makes me want to hang out in this channel less
<MrChrisDruif> Ghehe, why so tgm4883 ?
<tgm4883> MrChrisDruif, if they are showing off something at CES, it isn't hardware (technically it is but listen) it's the software side.
<tgm4883> If they are showing it off at this CES, it's going to try and hit market late this year
<tgm4883> which means most decisions for this have already been made
<tgm4883> if that is the case, since almost zero has been said in this channel from the canonical side (and zero about an actual product), that means it's all been done in secret (which would appear to be canonical's MO on these types of projects)
<tgm4883> and if all that is true, it means that we are wasting out time in this channel
<MrChrisDruif> MO?
<tgm4883> method of operation
<tgm4883> it's how they do things
<MrChrisDruif> Ah, gotcha
<tgm4883> Do I think it's cool? Yes. Do I think it would be awesome to have a Ubuntu-TV product? Yes.
<tgm4883> But all that adds up to us doing the work we've done in this channel with zero canonical direction for absolutely nothing
<MrChrisDruif> Yeah, that topic has been raised before on this channel
<tgm4883> Which yes, is our own fault for trying to get the ball rolling when we didn't see anything happening, but is also Canonical's fault for making a ubuntu-tv channel and leading us along when they were doing everything in secret
<MrChrisDruif> Will *promised* and *promised* things would turn for the better, but I've not seen any action indicating he was telling the truth "Only talk the talk if you can walk the walk"
<mhall119> tgm4883: they are showing off a prototype, not a market ready product
<MrChrisDruif> Indeed, there should be less secrecy from Canonical
<tgm4883> I hope for everyone in here that it isn't a TV at CES, but it's CES, so it's either a TV, Tablet, or Phone
<tgm4883> mhall119, they aren't showing off hardware, they are showing off software
<mhall119> tgm4883: yes, but not market-ready software
<mhall119> only prototype software
<tgm4883> mhall119, it's CES, so it's a little more than prototype. Even if it is only a prototype, that means they have been developing it in secret, which brings me back to "what are we doing here then?"
<mhall119> tgm4883: we're thinking about what could be, and what we would want to have, in an Ubuntu TV
<tgm4883> mhall119, seems like a lot of effort on our part for something we have no say in
<MrChrisDruif> How can they have any software to show in the first place?
<mhall119> MrChrisDruif: well they have Ubuntu and Unity already
<tgm4883> mhall119, they aren't showing just a box running unity connected to a TV
<tgm4883> Heck, they had that at UDS
<tgm4883> it ran the schedule :)
<mhall119> yeah...I know, that was my code
<MrChrisDruif> Yes, but it's Consumer Electronics Show, not Consumer Software Show...
<mhall119> lots of software gets shown there
<mhall119> heck, Microsoft is one of their biggest attendees
<tgm4883> yep
<tgm4883> well, not after this year
<mhall119> they'll likely still be one of the biggest
<popey> tgm4883: sorry to hear you're feeling like that
<tgm4883> mhall119, are you @canonical
<mhall119> I am now, I wasn't when i started hacking on summit code though
<popey> from what I can see it's an unfinished concept that's being shown at CES
<tgm4883> popey, it seriously feels like we've been mislead a bit here
<mhall119> tgm4883: I understand it feels that way
<tgm4883> I don't understand the point of this channel if it's an internal project
<popey> that wasnt the intention
<popey> and i don't think it's an 'internal project'
<mhall119> tgm4883: it's not an internal project, there isn't even an official Ubuntu TV team that I'm aware of
<popey> there isnt
<tgm4883> popey, oh, there where can I do a BZR PULL?
<tgm4883> then*
<mhall119> tgm4883: I can ask if it's in bzr somewhere
<mhall119> but the main people working on it will be at CES, so I probably won't have an answer this week
<tgm4883> mhall119, I would love an answer
<popey> I have already asked if what has been made can be made public
<popey> as in, code
<mhall119> I would too, I want to hack on it as much as you do, trust me
<tgm4883> popey, I know it probably wasn't the intention to mislead people, but from an outside POV, if this stays non-public it would seem to be business as usual
<popey> yeah, i can see that tgm4883
<mhall119> tgm4883: if it makes you feel any better, you know just about as much about it as I do
<mhall119> and you didn't learn about it all that long after I did
<tgm4883> mhall119, that doesn't really make me feel that much better
<mhall119> this isn't a major company-wide project
<popey> as I understand it, there is a concept which has been created to show off to potential hardware partners.
<tgm4883> that just means that it wasn't an accident that we didn't know, that it is more secret
<popey> i don't believe much in the way of code exists
<mhall119> it's more of a skunk-works by a small number of people who wanted to make something that would interest manufacturers
<mhall119> if there is any code, it's probably all throw-away anyway
 * tgm4883 shrugs
<popey> but my understanding is that what coder there is, will get either made available as a separate branch, or will be rolled into standard unity
<tgm4883> popey, so it's part of Unity then
<mhall119> tgm4883: we'll know more after CES, both of us
<tgm4883> popey, cause that was a major discussion we've had in this channel multiple times
<tgm4883> mhall119, agree, I just don't want to be wasting my time
<popey> i dont know if 'its part of unity' is something i can answer
<AlanBell> it will be interesting to see what they show, and whether they are showing the best they could have achieved if they had collaborated more
<tgm4883> popey, don't, I don't want to get you in trouble
<mhall119> tgm4883: I don't think I'm wasting *my* time here, and this isn't part of my @canonical job
<popey> not for that reason tgm4883
<popey> i just dont know âº
 * popey is not a programmer 
<mhall119> AlanBell: I get the feeling it's a closer to a non-working demo just to see if anybody is interested in the *idea* of Ubuntu/Unity on a TV
<MrChrisDruif> AlanBell; +1
<tgm4883> mhall119, popey, it's fine if it's a secret internal project. I just want to be clear on that. If it's not, great, I'll stick around and contribute. If it is, I'll leave and go back to the mythbuntu channel and hack on that code
<popey> it is my understanding that it is not intended to be a secret internal project
<mhall119> tgm4883: there should be a more official announcement at or after CES about where the project is going
<popey> however right now yeah, there was some secrecy behind _this_ concept
<tgm4883> popey, yes there was
<tgm4883> mhall119, I hope it's soon, otherwise I'll just theme XBMC to look like unity, ship it with Mythbuntu and beat you guys to the punch ;)
<mhall119> popey has a point, "Ubuntu on a TV" isn't a secret project, "Ubuntu concept prototype at CES" kind of was though
<AlanBell> sure, which is fine
<AlanBell> but the total lack of direction here is curious
<mhall119> tgm4883: man if you can do that, do it!  You'll make a lot of people happy
<tgm4883> right let me rephrase then
<AlanBell> like xbmc vs myth tv vs QML
<tgm4883> at this point, Ubuntu-TV is closed-source
<tgm4883> and that is bad
<MrChrisDruif> Again, how can they have any kind of concept ready without community involvement?
<mhall119> no, at this point it's vapor-ware
<mhall119> it's an idea
<tgm4883> mhall119, unless they are showing off a video at CES, it's not truely vaporware
<AlanBell> ARM or Intel?
<mhall119> tgm4883: it's close enough, an animated mockup, even an interactive mockup, but still just a mockup
 * MrChrisDruif hopes in a way it's just a vid with features we hope to include
<tgm4883> mhall119, what part of that do you want? XBMC shipping on mythbuntu, or XBMC themed like Unity?
<AlanBell> we have been told the target output resolution is 1920x1080, but pretty much nothing beyond that as parameters to target
<tgm4883> AlanBell, I'd guess ARM
<mhall119> tgm4883: I don't have an HTPC anyway, so I'm not your target audience, but I'm sure you'll get a lot of interest doing either
<MrChrisDruif> quad-hd ^_^
<tgm4883> based on the way TV's are going internally and also Canonical's investment in Linaro
<mhall119> AlanBell: oh?  I hadn't heard of a target resolution
<AlanBell> tgm4883: yeah, but we don't know
<popey> that does make sense
<mhall119> that's good to know
<tgm4883> mhall119, possibly, we have a lot of interest in MythTV on Ubuntu too
<tgm4883> I hadn't heard of a target resolution either, but 1920x1080 makes sense otherwise we're wasting our time
<AlanBell> if it is ARM, is there an openGL GPU?
<mhall119> if it's ARM, I hope it's something newer/more powerful than what they were using at UDS
<popey> the hardware doesnt exist yet
<mhall119> AlanBell: some SoC support it, there's also Unity2d which I think has better hardware acceleration on ARM
<popey> we dont have a 'set top box' or a 'smart tv' yet
<tgm4883> popey, I hope that isn't 100% true
<AlanBell> no, but normally there would be a power budget for the hardware
<popey> which bit?
<popey> we have no hardware vendors onside that I'm aware of
<tgm4883> that means that there is no plan to allow people to install this on their own hardware ;)
<AlanBell> as in "we are targetting an atom class intel chipset"
<popey> i have seen no hardware devices that are specifically for ubuntu tv
<AlanBell> or "we are targetting a core i7"
<popey> tgm4883: i didnt say that at all
<popey> just to be clear
<popey> and i didnt imply that either
<tgm4883> popey, I know, you don't know
<popey> no
<tgm4883> err
<popey> i do know
<mhall119> again, this is not going to be much more than a mockup, so the hardware they use at CES isn't necessarily goiong to resemble target hardware in any way
<popey> i know we dont have a hardware device right now
<popey> this is kinda the point of going to CES
<AlanBell> I see
<tgm4883> well you implied it then, if the hardware doesn't exist yet, that means we can't install it on custom hardware
<mhall119> it may just be a PC or laptop with an HDMI out, I don't know
<tgm4883> which means you aren't releasing an ISO
<popey> no
<popey> i did not imply that
<tgm4883> but I see what you are getting at
<popey> dont read into what I am saying
<tgm4883> there is no hardware that you are shipping on
<tgm4883> or even hardware that you have thought about
<popey> we have nothing to ship
<AlanBell> tgm4883: it is way way early for that
<tgm4883> or even hardware that you have designed for
<popey> why would we have hardware?
<mhall119> popey: so they can give me one ;)
<popey> oh I'm sure they've looked at various devices
<popey> and evaluated whats on the market
<AlanBell> I am surprised that the openGL or not openGL question is unanswerable though
<popey> but we haven't got a chosen / blessed platform
<mhall119> AlanBell: Unity doesn't care though, 3d for opengl, 2d otherwise
<mhall119> for a tv, video decoding will be more important than 3d effects
 * popey imagines a 3d cube on his telly
 * popey shudders
<mhall119> speaking of which, I hear Linaro is doing well on that front
<AlanBell> depends, zoom out to see two channels playing perhaps
<mhall119> video decoding, not spinnig cubes on the telly
<popey> each channel on the face of a cube
<AlanBell> channel changing effects could be pretty cool with openGL
<popey> yeah, I guess
<mhall119> AlanBell: ARM chips have hardware acceleration for different things like that, even if it's not OpenGL
<tgm4883> linaro had 1080p big buck bunny playing at UDS rather nicely
<mhall119> I think Unity2D is preferred on ARM because QT supports non-opengl acceleration, while compiz is only opengl
<mhall119> tgm4883: yeah, but the rest of the interface felt sluggish
<mhall119> last I tried it anyway
<mhall119> which was in UDS-O, so it may be way better now
<tgm4883> alright, so we still don't really know anything. And the people in this channel don't know/can't say anything either. I'll agree to put down the pitchfork and torch until after CES
<popey> heh
 * popey hugs tgm4883 
 * tgm4883 picks up the pitchfork again
<tgm4883> stand back! You're British!
<popey> :D
<tgm4883> I like to think that everyone in this channel is not british except for popey, who is the token British guy
<AlanBell> wrong
 * MrChrisDruif understands that no-one can say anything (even if they know) but that just baffles me in terms how that mock-up even became to be without the community
<tgm4883> AlanBell, no, you are... uh..... English
<MrChrisDruif> ^_^
<AlanBell> MrChrisDruif: if it looks like this it will be OK http://people.ubuntu.com/~alanbell/unitytelly/pages/launcher.png
<tgm4883> MrChrisDruif, I have a feeling we were involved to the point they took ideas from the feature list we made
<mhall119> MrChrisDruif: have you seen the Launcher tester they just released?
<MrChrisDruif> Looks familiar...designer AlanBell ;-)
<AlanBell> complete with "BFB"!
<mhall119> AlanBell: I hope the have nicer looking hardware than that...
<tgm4883> popey, I'm alittle surprised Daviey doesn't hang out in this channel with the work he does for Mythbuntu
<AlanBell> unrelated question. What is this running? -> http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/57717000/jpg/_57717084_ubuntuwebbook3.jpg
<mhall119> AlanBell: is that the vodaphone one?
<AlanBell> probably
<mhall119> in that case, I heard it's 10.?? with a backport of Unity
<AlanBell> it is in the CES article http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-16415136
<mhall119> yeah,  I have no idea where they got that image from, or what it is
<AlanBell> but those 8 dash icons look like they might actually be useful to someone!
<mhall119> it looks like the 11.04 Unity
<AlanBell> can't be unity :)
<mhall119> the CoF button is in teh top panel
<AlanBell> yes, and the search field is on a grey bar it seems
<MrChrisDruif> 11.04 with Faenza icon theme?
<popey> tgm4883: daviey is busy with server stuff these days
<popey> that pic looks like a marketing one, not a real image
<AlanBell> grumbling asside I do think it is awesome that Canonical is going to be showing off stuff at CES, it is that kind of thing that sets Ubuntu aside from the other distros
<mhall119> AlanBell: also awesome that the BBC is talking about Canonical and Ubuntu
<AlanBell> yeah, and in the context of Canonical being a representative of UK industry going to CES which is interesting for the political dynamics as well
<MrChrisDruif> As I understand it; Ubuntu isn't a distro but a platform?
<mcbaine1> opened ... let the chat commence :)
<MrChrisDruif> Commence your chatting
<popey> hah
<popey> MrChrisDruif: ubuntu is a project, product, distro, and platform
<mcbaine1> MrChrisDruif, :: ok so we were talking about an Ubuntu box for hw consideration ....
<MrChrisDruif> Alright, a bit of everything
<MrChrisDruif> mcbaine1; do you read any articles about Ubuntu?
<MrChrisDruif> http://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2012/01/ubuntu-powered-tv-to-be-revealed-at-ces/
<mcbaine1> yes i read the omgubuntu tv article ..
<MrChrisDruif> They'll be showing some kind of "mock-up" apparently over there at the CES
<popey> not a mock-up, a 'concept' âº
 * mcbaine1 thnks this has many missed opourtunities - about it
<popey> oh?
<MrChrisDruif> popey; a "working" mock-up
<popey> heh
<MrChrisDruif> ;-)
<MrChrisDruif> Anyhow..
<MrChrisDruif> So I think this project is on hold till that has happened. We hope for an official announcement during or right after CES for some direction we'll be heading
<popey> there will absolutely be an official announcement
 * mcbaine1 thnks that Canonical is now aligning itself with the expensive purchases arena and does not allow for mobility etc..
<popey> mobility in what sense?
<mcbaine1> you canot carry around a 40" tv ...
<popey> what if you could install the TV interface on a laptop?
<mcbaine1> whereas a PVR is accessible for business trips/schools/and a quick nip around to your friends...
<mhall119> mcbaine1: but you can sync your data between your 40" tv, 15" laptop, and 4" phone
<mhall119> or 7" tabplet
<mhall119> tablet
<mhall119> and car, the ivi stuff comes
<popey> yeah, I'd love that, record something at home, take it on the train to work and watch it there, then when i get home carry on watching on the tv
<MrChrisDruif> 8" as well mhall119 ?
<MrChrisDruif> ;-)
<mcbaine1> Canonical is becoming the Sony of the software world with little appreciation for small based power models and 3.5"hard-disk capacity PVR's etc...
<mhall119> MrChrisDruif: no, never 8", NEVER!
<popey> mcbaine1: you're making assumptions here
<mhall119> mcbaine1: how's that?  They're still investing in Linaro and working on power consumption, etc
<popey> which is understandable given the concept hasn't been shown yet âº
<popey> ARM is a key part of the Ubuntu story
<mcbaine1> I believe i am free to express suggestions and criticisms .. this isn't a proprietory sw based company is it ??  Anyway...
<MrChrisDruif> =|
<mhall119> mcbaine1: you're free to be wrong, yes, and we're free to correct you
<MrChrisDruif> mcbaine1; next release will (among other polishes) be about power usage
<mcbaine1> It will take ARM 4 years to create a 3.2GHz chip to power Ubuntu media-centers   .. but as this is the'right' thing to do they probably will not do it.
<mcbaine1> **they = Ubuntu ,...
<mhall119> ubuntu is the community
<popey> you dont need 3.2GHz to power a media centre
<mhall119> so  you're just kind of insulting volunteers for not doing enough
<mcbaine1> it's a hw issue I'm afraid .. stop being negitive in your thinking... I'm hgaving an open conversation about the future of Ubuntu-PVR devices which will 'top' Ubuntu -tv.
<mcbaine1> The issue is not how to get Ubuntu on to the TV, but how to cable a box (media-center) to a television with a 3TB hdd.
<mcbaine1> MrChrisDruif, :: comments so far ??
<MrChrisDruif> Well...your comments can be viewed as offensive. It seems your already having your ideas set, which isn't always a good thing.
<mcbaine1> What are your ideas .. plz...
<mcbaine1> FYI .. I haven't insulted/offended anyone for months to my knowledge.. no-one has explained why anyways..
<MrChrisDruif> Secondly, I don't agree with everything you say (I think ARM will produce within 4 year 3.2GHz if needed) and I think it's best to wait on what Canonical will present on CES
<popey> we dont need 3.2GHz for Ubuntu TV
<popey> we don't even need 2GHz for it
<popey> we can run Ubuntu on ARM, this is well proven, and ARM devices are already capable of 1080p playback
<mcbaine1> fine.. the hw issue is secondary i agree.. but Canonical isn't master of the product/sw .. What TV company is it going with ??
<popey> the information that we even had a product concept was released today
<popey> we're going to CES next week to look for hardware partners
<mcbaine1> can't you do that via email  ??
<MrChrisDruif> That's not really how the corporate world works
<mhall119> not if they actually *want* a partner
<mhall119> CES is like speed dating for technology companies
<popey> heh
<mcbaine1> i thnk its contrieved  , at best .. the project needs a lab for initial hw testing... agree ?
<popey> we already have experience with what hardware is capable of
<popey> there's also a pretty big community of people who already want something like Ubuntu TV on a low power, small form factor device.
<mcbaine1> e.g... weblinks of this ??
<popey> some of those people already have the devices, and just need the hardware enablement doing
<popey> web links of what?
<mcbaine1> "people who already want something like Ubuntu TV on a low power, small form factor device."
<popey> i talk to people in the real world who want this
<mcbaine1> i see no evidence of this online in the community thou...
<popey> you're looking in the wrong places âº
<mcbaine1> popey :: plz note that im am in a team/family that owns the biggest television distribution company in the country so weblinks is a good way to 'spread the word'  .. also good 4 business.
 * mcbaine1 is bemused over the channel's lack of interest in it's main application at this time.. 
<AlanBell> mcbaine1: it isn't a lack of interest, it is a lack of information. There is nothing to see until CES really
<mhall119> mcbaine1: remember that the very idea of an "Ubuntu TV" was only announced 2 months ago
<mcbaine1> AlanBell, mhull119 :: I thought this was the place to offer up conceptions about the future of the project.... ?
<mcbaine1> ** mhall119 ... ??
<AlanBell> sure, and we have put forward a number of concepts. They have been processed, jumbled about, built upon and we wait to see what happens next at CES
<AlanBell> which is Monday, so not long to wait
<mcbaine1> AlanBell, how does that help me (here) with the discussion.. ??
<mhall119> mcbaine1: have you seen the mockups that have already been made?
<AlanBell> yes
<mcbaine1> mhall119, no .. plz be specific..
<mhall119> we've also had numerous discussion in this channel in the last month or so
<AlanBell> I made one (kinda)
<mhall119> specific about what?
<mhall119> AlanBell made the grand-daddy of them all
<AlanBell> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuTV/Designs
<AlanBell> mockups ^^
<mcbaine1> oening..
<mcbaine1> **opening..
 * mcbaine1 thnks http://people.ubuntu.com/~alanbell/unitytelly/daniel/ is the only serious one ... reading rest..
<AlanBell> my one isn't serious, it was just to introduce the framework I had made for doing the storyboard mockups
<AlanBell> I kind of made the telly on which to put the designs
<mhall119> mcbaine1: they are all serious ones, please don't belittle other people's efforts
<mcbaine1> Alan bell :: I remember this stage a decade ago .. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yiF8YVmBOxg
<mcbaine1> mhall119, :: plz stopp taking criticism so sensitively.. I'm being CONstructive not destructive... !
<AlanBell> there are interesting concepts on all the mockups that could be cherry picked
<mhall119> there is nothing "CONstructive" about calling the majority of those mockups non-serious
<mhall119> all I'm asking for is that you be respectful to the rest of the community
<mhall119> I would do the same if somebody came in here and called your contributions non-serious
<mcbaine1> mhall119, :: perhaps' serious' was a little too misunderstanding I meant art-realistic.
<AlanBell> they are concept sketches, not finished designs
<AlanBell> mine was deliberately a bit scrappy, I wanted people to think they could do better
<AlanBell> sadly the press picked it up and misunderstood that part
<mcbaine1> did u use inkscape ??
<mhall119> Pencil
<mhall119> it's a really easy way to build mockups
<AlanBell> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuTV/Designs/Pencil
<mcbaine1> k.. not familiar with that perhaps that's why ..
<mcbaine1> k installed pencil.. but its for the children of gsoc really.. me thnks.
<mhall119> it's the best mockup tool I've found
<mhall119> even  wrong about it almost a year ago: http://mhall119.com/2011/04/pencil-for-easy-ui-mockups/
<mhall119> do you know of a better one?
<mhall119> Inkscape could make nicer visuals, sure, but it takes a lot longer to make a mockup in it than in Pencil
<mcbaine1> mhall119, :: TWISI  pecil is southpark , Inkscape is used 4 humble indie bundle for example.. (h.i.b. =Â£1m+ each time)
<AlanBell> mcbaine1: it is a sketching tool, not an art tool
<mhall119> mcbaine1: yeah, you wouldn't develop promo art in Pencil
<mcbaine1> art is sketching  but im not getting semantic about it... well done 4 your tries...  :)
<mhall119> but for brainstorming layout and functionality, it's much simpler than Inkscape
<mcbaine1> brainstorming.. yes ... functionality no... use sketchup on wine ...;)
<AlanBell> which is non-free software
<mhall119> got a link for that?
<AlanBell> and doesn't do storyboarding
<mcbaine1> probably.... scaning firefox hist.   ...
<AlanBell> isn't sketchup the 3d modeling thing?
<AlanBell> how does that help for user experience design?
<mhall119> AlanBell: oh, we can build a 3d UI for 3d tvs for Unity 3d!
<mcbaine1> Alanbell :: stroryboarding... no it doesn't  .. just import your images though...
<AlanBell> anyhow, mcbaine1 if you would like to contribute a mockup made in sketchup on wine then that would be awesome and we would be happy to link to it from the designs page
<mhall119> hmmm, I wonder what compiz + 3d TV would be like...
<mcbaine1> good .. lets go with that ... new topic compiz +3d TV  initiated...
<mhall119> cube!
<mhall119> a different show on each side
<mhall119> wobbly *everything*
<mhall119> ok, so that was non-serious
<mhall119> I apologize
<mhall119> I suppose you could make the controls float in front of the content
<mhall119> maybe push everything back just a bit to emphasize it
<AlanBell> channel flipping with the shift switcher compiz plugin
<mhall119> through what? open channels?
<AlanBell> probably
<AlanBell> assuming multiple tuners I guess
<mhall119> I think we can assume 2 tuners, but not more than that
<mcbaine1> I thnk that although this is graphically interesting... the practical functionality eludes me , and can be best refined in a decent file manager with preview window like that of the Xreamer interface.
<mcbaine1> **Xtreamer
<mhall119> I think Unity + Lenses is the target content manager
<mcbaine1> k.. how amny 'screens' can compiz usually use..
<mcbaine1> **many ... ?
<mhall119> you mean like workspaces?
<mcbaine1> yes
<AlanBell> up to quite a lot, 64?
<mhall119> more than that
<mhall119> I think
<mhall119> I think I hit 128 showing it off to a windows gamer
<mcbaine1> is that shown as a 64 sided cube-like structure in transition ?
<AlanBell> 32x32
<mhall119> oh, I wasn't using cube
<mhall119> was using expo by then
<mhall119> cube is eye-catching and all, but I found it counter-productive
<mcbaine1> yes , so the question was ... how many sides does the cube-like animation display using compiz in transistion between screens ??
<mhall119> zooming out on my 128 or whatever workspaces made the guy decide that he wanted to try Ubuntu after all
<mhall119> mcbaine1: I think it'll do the same number, but instead of a cube it'll be closer to a cylinder
<mcbaine1> mhall119, is that 128 sides ??
<mhall119> however many the limit is
#ubuntu-tv 2012-01-08
<mhall119> we probably don't want that many though
<mhall119> my laptop almost died trying to render than many
<mcbaine1> i thnk this needs to be specifically forked to six sides for uubuntu tv
<mhall119> why 6?
<mcbaine1> A,media:video/pictures/audiofiles. B, desktop c, tv interface ... anything else ??
<mcbaine1> U.B.U.N.T.U = 6
<mhall119> I think "desktop" is going to be the currently playing media
<mhall119> tv guide and content manager would be overlays like the Dash
<mhall119> I  don't see a use for a traditional desktop space on a TV
<mcbaine1> "desktop" is the Ubuntu 11.10 gui  , "tv guide" is a video file subscreen,  As far as a traditional desktop space on a TV this wouls solidify UBUNTU as No.1 in the internet TV market by far...
<mcbaine1> ... and this is my concern.... dude.
<mcbaine1> all of these subscreen are accessed by a simple 'button' on the remote control as BGates ried to ndo .. but we will succeed where he failed..
<mcbaine1> I already have a sketchup of a U.box remote control ... just exporting.... :)
<AlanBell> the horizontal limit is 32 sides, and it can be 32 tall. Both are crazy big, and you can probably increase them with a simple hack if you really wanted to
<AlanBell> oh, and you can have lots of entire desktops, so total space is probably 32^3
<mcbaine1> AlanBell, :: the hack only needs to be 6 sides imho.
<AlanBell> 36 desktops, so 32x32x36, that is kind of a lot
<mcbaine1> AlanBell, incl 'top' and 'bottom' ...
<AlanBell> no hack needed for 6 sides
<AlanBell> top and bottom are a bit special I think, you can just put an image on them or a slideshow
<mcbaine1> but does this include 'top' and 'bottom'  ??
<AlanBell> in standard compiz that is
<mcbaine1> top/bottom needs to be used for full effect.... :)
<AlanBell> yeah, but they are not the same shape or aspect ratio as the screen
<mcbaine1> ...yet..
<AlanBell> they are hexagonal if you have 6 faces
 * tgm4883 reads backlog
 * popey tickles tgm4883 
 * tgm4883 scowles at popey 
<popey> \o/
<popey> noted
<mcbaine1> AlanBell, :: i'm proposing a simple cube incl. use of top/bottom..
<AlanBell> with 16:9 aspect ratio on the sides?
<mcbaine1> (6 sides)
<AlanBell> what is the aspect ratio of the top and bottom?
<tgm4883> i've skimmed the last 30 minutes, why do we want a 3D ui?
<mcbaine1> remainder of 16:9 side's length squared.
<AlanBell> mcbaine1: yup, it is a square
<AlanBell> which is why it doesn't get used much for desktop compiz
<AlanBell> tgm4883: we are just randomly rambling
<tgm4883> AlanBell, I see
<mcbaine1> tgm4883, :: we're just seeing if it's practically usefull for the 'A,B,C' SCREENS AS PROPOSED 00.01 utc
 * AlanBell rambles off to bed. night all o/
<tgm4883> is there a mockup somewhere?
 * mcbaine1 IS ANNOYED THAT USER'S QUIT WHEN IT IS JUST GETTING INTERESTING ... :(
<mcbaine1> soz for caps.
<tgm4883> wait, are you proposing the compiz cube for the TV?
<mcbaine1> tgm4883, yes conceptually so far..
<tgm4883> mcbaine1, eww
<mcbaine1> tgm4883, plz be specific..
<tgm4883> I think this is where the argument "just because we can, doesn't mean we should" comes from
<mcbaine1> how so ??
<tgm4883> so what exactly would you use the cube for?
<tgm4883> obviously for multiple sides, but what would you put on each side and why
<mcbaine1> here's my logic...
<tgm4883> if you've already said this, just tell me to read the backlog
<mcbaine1> read backlog "<mcbaine1> A,media:video/pictures/audiofiles. B, desktop c, tv interface"
<mcbaine1> some 18 mins ago...
<mcbaine1> i actually have an 8 sided mock up for my project but that cos it a gaming interface..
<mcbaine1> tgm4883, u still there ??
<tgm4883> mcbaine1, I'm not sure why we A) need a cube in the traditional sense (software running on each side which consumes resources), and B) would want the type of flipping produced changing from one side to another
<tgm4883> yea, i read the backlog, but I do have to leave in a few minutes
<tgm4883> I agree with mhall119 on this regarding the desktop
<mcbaine1> so does the inventiveness of this project :(
<tgm4883> most people don't want the desktop on a TV
<tgm4883> we've discussed a few types of apps that would benefit, but other than that it's a little much
<mcbaine1> but it does exist in a watered dow form already for browsing ...
<tgm4883> yes
<tgm4883> which is what people want
<tgm4883> tv's are an applicance
<tgm4883> most people don't want to write a word doc on their TV
<mcbaine1> 'appliance'  ??
<tgm4883> for those that do, we've discussed certain ways of handling it
<tgm4883> like a toaster
<tgm4883> non-complicated
 * tgm4883 has to leave in like 1 minutes
<mcbaine1> so does the inventiveness of this project :(
<tgm4883> mcbaine1, regarding people leaving, the people that have left are from europe and likely went to bed. You've caught me on a saturday evening
<mcbaine1> k
<tgm4883> mcbaine1, regarding the  " inventiveness of this project ", people like things simple. If we can bring people awesome things simply, thats great. There is no need to bring people complicated stuff
<tgm4883> if it's complicated, then people will choose other things
<tgm4883> mcbaine1, I would love to continue this conversation at another time as I have to go now. I am pacific time zone of the USA, so look me up at another normal time.
<mcbaine1> tgm4883, AlanBell, popey, mhall119 :: Aloha from Isle of Man... !
<AlanBell> http://ubuntu-uk.org/where-are-we/
<AlanBell> pin plz
<mcbaine1> what does 'pin' mean ??
<mcbaine1> AlanBell, :: What does the term ... 'pin' mean ??
<AlanBell> you can put a pin on the map
<mcbaine1> oh yes sorry saw the video .. atmo.
<mcbaine1> AlanBell, After watching the video, I realise that I as much to do with 'http://ubuntu-uk' as here http://www.nature.nps.gov/air/WebCams/parks/sekicam/sekilargerimage.cfm
<mcbaine1> I therefore will not try to be something that I AM NOT.
<mcbaine1> imnichol, :: Hi , Aloha  ..
<mcbaine1> AlanBell, I did a picture in 'pencil' last night for you about using compiz in Ubuntu - tv if you are interested..
<imnichol> Hey everyone, glad to see some action!
<mcbaine1> imnichol, :: topic is still compiz in Ubunu TV at the moment...
<imnichol> I seem to remember that one of the Canonical employees was going to do some write-up about what their plans were.  Did anything happen with that or was it just my imagination?
<imnichol> (their plans with regard to UTV)
<mcbaine1> imnichol, Note UTV is an irish trade mark entity (whereas Ubu-TV is not )
<mcbaine1> imnichol, :: I have no links to that effect...
<imnichol> I think it was on the mailing list
<mcbaine1> link ???
<imnichol> It was Thomas Mashos on 3/1/2012
<imnichol> Hold on a sec, I'll find it
<imnichol> https://lists.launchpad.net/ubuntu-tv/msg00116.html
<mcbaine1> opening...
<mcbaine1> imnichol, seems to focus on http://kotaku.com/5444951/just-how-wii+like-is-lgs-magic-motion-tv-remote   ... any comments  ??
<imnichol> I don't really care about the Wii thing
<imnichol> I was referencing this part: "While I think custom hardware might not be out of scope, I think we
<imnichol> will know more tomorrow (hopefully, Will Cooke said he was writing up
<imnichol> a doc to give us a little direction)."
<mcbaine1> oh ok .. so this was a non-event thing ??
<imnichol> What was a non-event thing?
<mcbaine1> exactly  .. it didn't happen !  ( -1) ::: Here's my work on compiz on Ubuntu (although I've used a derivative for the purpose of discussion)  shown below  :::
<mcbaine> http://dl.dropbox.com/u/55128914/trisquel%20comiz%20-tv%20%23chl..odt
<mcbaine1> wrong file wait a mo..
<mcbaine1> cant find it looks like i wasted 2 hrs last night :(   .. still looking anyway...
<imnichol> Lame
<imnichol> Let me know if you find it
<mcbaine1> i'll have to do it again...
<mcbaine1> wait an half-hour or so....
<mcbaine1> pecil on firefox just crashed.. +15mins...
<mcbaine1> **pencil..
<mcbaine1> Hi MrChrisDruif :: Aloha.
<MrChrisDruif> Aloha mcbaine1
<mcbaine1> oh hi soz..
<mcbaine1> MrChrisDruif,  Why are peole in the US so hostile to chatting about SW improvements to the likes of MythTV etc.. ??
<MrChrisDruif> Why do you make assumption on where people are from?
<imnichol> Who's been hostile?
<imnichol> Don't answer that on second thought
<imnichol> I don't want to know names
<imnichol> But I wasn't aware that there's been hostility
<MrChrisDruif> imnichol; you don't want to know
<imnichol> Hahah
<imnichol> Is this another iteration of the "unity vs. mythtv" thing?
<tgm4883> imnichol, it wasn't me
<tgm4883> it was willcooke
<imnichol> Yeah I saw that, didn't articulate it well
<tgm4883> ah yea, just read that part
<tgm4883> what is this hostility thing?
<tgm4883> mcbaine, what are you talking about
<tgm4883> mcbaine1, ^^
<mcbaine1> i just abit depessed at the lack of open-thnking i guess ..
 * MrChrisDruif missed the part with willcooke
<tgm4883> mcbaine, specifics?
 * mcbaine1 can't recal 'willcooke' either but i heard that you said he was in executive team of ubuntu-tv or similiar ?
<tgm4883> he's canonical
<tgm4883> IIRC an Engineering Manager
<tgm4883> but what is this "lack of open-thinking"?
<tgm4883> is this regarding the cube?
<mcbaine1> tgm4883, :: Oh where, oh where, to begin ...... (1-3)
<tgm4883> how about from the start
<mcbaine1> 1, I talk to peope for 5 hours straight then when it gets interesting at a pivotal point of discussion they say they'll have a thnk about it and go to bed..
<tgm4883> that has zero to do with open thinking
<tgm4883> it has more to do with time zones
<mcbaine1> 2, Any talk of actually hw ramification of addressing to Ubuntu 'may-be's' and 'possibilities' of the project and how that can relate to hware and i get No, No, No, all of the time without any enlightenment as to why or "OK, but here's the 'issue' with that so far " kinda talk  .. I get depressed as I tunker with media-box hware all the time..
<mcbaine1> 3, **tinker
<tgm4883> mcbaine1, I'm reading backlog for some of this
<imnichol> I really wish Canonical would partner with System76 or something for hardware
<tgm4883> imnichol, I disagree, they need to have a reach that extends further than System76
<imnichol> Sorry to go off topic, but that idea's been kicking around in my mind for a while and I just remembered it
<imnichol> tgm4883, I mean that I'd like to be able to go to canonical.com and buy a laptop online from their site
<imnichol> In the same way that you can(I think) buy apple hardware and have it delivered by going to apple.com
<tgm4883> mcbaine1, sorry for this taking so long, I'm in the middle of the part where you argue that pencil isn't good enough to do sketchup's in. Hardly a point worth arguing IMO
<tgm4883> imnichol, i'd rather walk into walmart and buy a ubuntu tv
<tgm4883> or best buy
<mcbaine1> 3, Any SW improvements improvements and the whole project seems to be dominated by some black cloud of 'but that's not possible atmo.' instead of what we need to do to address the concepts and possibilities of putting a Ubuntu like O/S on a television is met like this for example ...: http://www.xtreamer.net/xtreamer-prodigy-upgraded/  This is where we should be heading ...imho
<imnichol> That would also be good
<imnichol> I'm not saying partner exclusively
 * mcbaine1 drinks his milk...
<imnichol> But I've heard a lot of people complaining that Canonical isn't a hardware company
<tgm4883> mcbaine1, ....
<mcbaine1> tgm4883, Your comments at this point before we (as per usual) get into what canonical ISN'T
<tgm4883> mcbaine,
<tgm4883> mcbaine1, ok, I've looked at the link you posted, and skimmed most of the conversation from yesterday
<tgm4883> sec
<mcbaine1> tgm4883, ::: ... and ??
<tgm4883> You seem to have some decent ideas. I think you are a bit misinformed about what is needed/necessary in hardware requirements for to achieve what is wanted, and you seem a bit unwilling to accept that some of your points are incorrect (to the point where you ironically just call everyone else close minded)
<tgm4883> That said, i'll give you some of my time today if you'd like to discuss any of this
<mcbaine1> sure.. but im growing remember...
<tgm4883> as is this project
<mcbaine1> So the question is why is Ubuntu unwilling from  a technological pov to partner with amedia center company like xtreeamer.net ??
<AlanBell> who said they were?
<tgm4883> xtreamer.net, ok, lets talk about what they really are
<AlanBell> they have gone to CES to find interesting partners
<tgm4883> they have a piece of hardware that they have written what appears to be a proprietary OS for
<AlanBell> streamer.net does not to me look like a promising partner
<mcbaine1> http://xtreamer.net/ultra/   .. ?
<tgm4883> mcbaine, what about it?
<mcbaine1> you can install any o/s on it that you want to ...
<tgm4883> mcbaine1, whats your point?
<mcbaine1> Why is Canonical not priortising this as a major improvement over the whole TV debate ..
<mcbaine1> tgm4883, AlanBell :: Note this exact same debate is being played out in #trisquel atmo.
<AlanBell> you are confusing me
<AlanBell> they have a stand at CES and you are saying they are not prioritising TV
<tgm4883> mcbaine1, with all due respect, wtf are you talking about?
<mcbaine1> OK OK l;et me be specific   ....
<mcbaine1> If we have the TV hw (in some form & not quite 'IN' the TV itself) and we have the operating system that can be used on any TV then why aren't we talking about the sw improvements needed to bring-this-forward to the Ubuntu/PC/TV edge that we are at @ the moment ??
 * mcbaine1 drnks his milk ..
<imnichol> I'm confused by this part: "why aren't we talking about the sw improvements needed to bring-this-forward to the Ubuntu/PC/TV edge that we are at @ the moment"
<tgm4883> mcbaine1, so your question is "why aren't we talking about what improvements need to be made to Unity to make it usable with a remote on the TV"?
<imnichol> I can't figure out what you mean
<tgm4883> imnichol, i think he means ^^
<tgm4883> mcbaine1, would that be correct?
<mcbaine1> tgm4883, We can talk about the remote issue also.. but don't have a cow, man.
<tgm4883> ???
<mcbaine1> ..the remote..
<tgm4883> i was questioning the "don't have a cow, man"
 * mcbaine1 drink his milky milk.
<tgm4883> popey, ping
<tgm4883> mcbaine1, so then you are asking,  "why aren't we talking about what improvements need to be made to Unity to make it usable on the TV"?
<tgm4883> is that correct
<mcbaine1> well yes using the http://xtreamer.net/ultra/ as an parrallel example ofwhere the real world is atmo.
<imnichol> I think that we've spent a decent chunk of the last few months talking about just that
<tgm4883> mcbaine1, yes, all of that has been discussed quite a bit
<mcbaine1> wow half an hour and i thnk we got square 1 of a decent debate on the horizon...
<tgm4883> see, it's comments like that that make people hate you
<mcbaine1> imnichol, tgm4883 "we've spent a decent chunk of the last few months talking about that "But how does that help me... ???
<tgm4883> mcbaine1, idk, maybe you should read the links in the topic
<imnichol> All of the planning so far is documented in the links up at the top
<imnichol> All of the planning so far is documented in the links up at the top
<mcbaine1> i'm on  .. https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-tv  where do i go... plz be specific.
 * tgm4883 sighs
<tgm4883> try http://pad.ubuntu-uk.org/UbuntuTV and http://pad.ubuntu-uk.org/UbuntuTV-Issues
<mcbaine1> i know but you just give palmed offansweres and i sigh and reach for more milk :(
<imnichol> http://pad.ubuntu-uk.org/UbuntuTV http://pad.ubuntu-uk.org/UbuntuTV-Issues
<mcbaine1> opening...
<imnichol> Beaten
<mcbaine1> ok beaten hey ?? do you wanna work top/down or bottom/up ??
<imnichol> What do you mean?
 * mcbaine1 drnks more milk...
<mcbaine1> the friggin' page links ... & their issues ..
<tgm4883> imnichol, he wants to discuss the issues
<imnichol> Oh ok
<tgm4883> mcbaine, we've discussed it many times, so I'll let you choose, but I'm only going to give you maybe an hour more of my sunday
<mcbaine1> report: 1 hour and a litre of milk later and square 1 of the debate appears closer because it's become so large and ambigious in it's manner... but it's actually further away..it's
<tgm4883> mcbaine1, how old are you?
<tgm4883> cause you are kinda all over the place
<mcbaine1> tgm4883, :: 1 hour .. 1 refer to 19:17 (1)  .. AFas.. age I'm 30's.
<tgm4883> is english your first language?
<mcbaine1> no manx.
<tgm4883> ok
<mcbaine1> traa dy liorr..
<imnichol> mcbaine1, which issues on the list are you concerned about?
<mcbaine1> issue choosing then...
<mcbaine1> give us a mo.
<mcbaine1> Extending a desktop to the TV device
<mcbaine1>     On the TV device side, an app that shows the shared content. On the desktop side, the ability to share full desktop or just a specific window (similar to how you move a application to a new workspace). The TV device would need to keep the aspect ratio/resolution of the application and possibly also scale up the font sizes
<mcbaine1> plz define ' shared content '  & 'TV device'
<tgm4883> shared content - like a video on your desktop
<tgm4883> tv device - the ubuntu tv
<imnichol> The "TV Device" is the Ubuntu TV, and the "shared content" would be whatever you wanted to display on your tv
<mcbaine1> plz define applications used for this service ... plz.
<tgm4883> I don't know what that means
<mcbaine1> I thnk this is merely a c++ issue isn't it ?
<tgm4883> oh, you want to know what applications we're going to use to do this?
<mcbaine1> yes for exampl .. ?
<tgm4883> yea these would probably be new applications
<mcbaine1> k lets discuss..
<mcbaine1> icecat can play webm afaik ..
<mcbaine1> soz firefox..
<imnichol> mcbaine1, the problem is that we don't know exactly what the user will want to show
<mcbaine1> or would this be another application ...?
<tgm4883> so there is two types of content to share, media and non-media
<tgm4883> media would be played using the built in media player of the Ubuntu-TV
<mcbaine1> imnichol, the user would like to show something like : video:webm/mpeg, audio:mp3+sbs, pics: jpeg200 ??
<tgm4883> non-media is unknown
<tgm4883> mcbaine1, we wouldn't use icecat nor firefox for that
<tgm4883> ideally it would be the built in player of ubuntu-tv
<mcbaine1> multiple application for this    ??
<mcbaine1> **applications.. ??
<imnichol> Maybe the UbuntuTV will probably have a daemon listening for connections from other devices, and then display that content using whatever application it wants
<mcbaine1> imnichol, how ??
<imnichol> So if you want to show a picture that is on your camera, your camera connects to the TV and transfers the file for the TV to open
<tgm4883> imnichol, mcbaine1, I envision it similar to workspaces for non-media apps
<imnichol> Then the TV sees that the file is a picture, and opens the picture with a picture viewing program
<mcbaine1> sureshot ??
<tgm4883> IDK sureshot
<mcbaine1> soz shotwell..
<tgm4883> well not shotwell likely, as that is more editing isn't it?
<mcbaine1> only redeye afaik..
<mcbaine1> & its not well received atmo anyay.. amongst fsf etc..
<imnichol> Probably more like gnome image viewer or something else
<mcbaine1> **anyway..
<tgm4883> imnichol, yea I was trying to remember the name of that "eye of gnome?"
<mcbaine1> if it doesn't print and correct redeye I'll have to pass anyway..
<mhall119> so right now if you plug in a camera, it's probably going to open Shotwell to import the pictures
<mhall119> shotwell has a viewer, or it can pass the file to eog
<mcbaine1> mhall119, correctamondo
<tgm4883> why would you want to do that on your TV
<mhall119> tgm4883: ideally it wouldn't matter where you do it, as it would all be backed by Ubuntu One anyway
<tgm4883> mhall119, well you don't want things to get overcomplicated
<mcbaine1> tgm4883, so you can take pictures and display/edit them together like a panorama (tv's are bigger) ..
<tgm4883> mcbaine1, yes, but they usually have poorer resolution
<tgm4883> plus, you then need a keyboard and mouse
<tgm4883> at that point, it's likely you will just have another computer
<mhall119> yeah, even high-def tv's aren't much better than a normal laptop screen
<mcbaine1> its the functionality bof the big screen which is the major asset to panorama projects..
<mcbaine1> **big
<tgm4883> mcbaine1, just because you say it has added functionality, doesn't mean it does
<mhall119> it's not so big when you're ten feet away
<tgm4883> it's actually smaller in resolution
<mcbaine1> resolution is a sml issue here.. you can see more of the panorama that you are putting together ..
<mhall119> so I did a test when I was making my tv mockups
<tgm4883> mcbaine1, do you understand resolution?
<AlanBell> it is a high resolution, 1920x1200, but things should be nice and chunky
<mhall119> and my droid X screen from arm's distance takes up the same field of view as my TV from across the room
<AlanBell> anyhow, what do you think they will be unveiling tomorrow at CES?
<tgm4883> mhall119, you need a bigger TV then ;)
<mcbaine1> resolution is how many pixels per inch are on the screen i guess.
<mhall119> tgm4883: or a smaller room?
<tgm4883> mcbaine, no, pixels total
<AlanBell> or a bigger phone
<mhall119> either way, the point is that the TV isn't going to give you more visual room
<AlanBell> or shorter arms
 * mcbaine1 drnks more milk..
 * tgm4883 votes for shorter arms ;)
<mhall119> :P
 * tgm4883 imagines mhall119 as a tyranosauras rex
 * mhall119 is a hallisaurus
<tgm4883> ok, so this (capabilities of a photo program) is a 3 month discussion
<tgm4883> so lets move on
<mcbaine1> audio ??
<tgm4883> mcbaine1, your call
<mcbaine1> yes audio.. then video...
<mcbaine1> can i getsbs ??
<mcbaine1> **sbs ... ??
<AlanBell> what is that then?
<tgm4883> side-by-side?
<AlanBell> small business server?
<mcbaine1> scanning for link ..
<mcbaine1> brback..
<AlanBell> smelly black socks?
<tgm4883> scottish bowel syndrome
<mcbaine1> soz SRS AudioFusion
<tgm4883> link?
<mcbaine1> hcking..
<mcbaine1> **chcking...
<mcbaine1> https://store.divx.com/671/purl-mysrs
<mcbaine1> elo ??
<tgm4883> ok, so I still don't really know what that is, but it appears to be some kind of codec
<tgm4883> which means, there really isn't a discussion needed for it
<mcbaine1> "Many TV sets employ built-in SRS "  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sound_Retrieval_System  ... but can it be used on ubuntu ??
<mcbaine1> or/ubuntu-tv ??
 * tgm4883 is reading
 * mcbaine1 drnks his milk
<tgm4883> mcbaine1, that appears to be hardware related, not software
<mcbaine1> oh i thought it was a codec a minute ago ??
<tgm4883> mcbaine1, don't pull that crap with me, you brought me two different links. You are the one who should know what this is, not me
<tgm4883> so cut the crap
<tgm4883> I've done exactly 60 seconds of research on what you just brought me
<mcbaine1> ok dont have a cow , man  ... do you thnk it can be used on a Ubuntu system or not ??
<tgm4883> also, SRS != SBS
<mcbaine1> no that was a spelling mistake, i meant srs.
<mcbaine1> the patents... "which expired between 2006-2008"  maybe workable 4 ubuntu ??
<tgm4883> I don't know if it can be used, I don't see why it couldn't
<mcbaine1> oh, you don't see 'why', ok , ok.
<tgm4883> mcbaine1, I don't see why it couldn't be used. meaning yes, it could probably be implemented if it isn't already
<imnichol> At the very worst, I'm guessing that Canonical wouldn't be opposed to licensing some tech if it's necessary
<mcbaine1> ok.. so its interesting .. perhaps i could souceforge it or something.. i dunno..
<mcbaine1> waht do thnk of that side project ??
<mcbaine1> **what  .. ?
<tgm4883> well you could try to put something together, it would benefit all of ubuntu
<mcbaine1> I thnk I'll call it U-SRS codec for linux .... u thnk ??
<tgm4883> sure
<mcbaine1> k
<tgm4883> although you'll probably have to work with pulseaudio
<mcbaine1> checking cnet for info...
<tgm4883> so that might be a better name
<mcbaine1> here's my profile page so far  http://www.cnet.com/8706-4_1-0.html?username=nasacouk&tag=rb_content;contentAux
<tgm4883> ok
<mcbaine1> lots of Qu's there .. but mostly from my MSoft days...
<mcbaine1> find anything interesting... I was ofered a job with them on one question alone !!
<tgm4883> I didn't look that deeply
<mcbaine1> ok .. not that deep.. there are lots of unanswered questions there... not interesting ??
<mcbaine1> I did find this interesting as a gui / color interface ...::: http://forum.addonsmirror.net/index.php?showtopic=6218&pid=24395&st=0&#entry24395
<imnichol> This isn't the right place for us to answer non-UbuntuTV related questions
<mcbaine1> but looking at the colors used ... plz... which one would u choose ??
<mcbaine1> i thnk Earthshift is the best : http://blackwensday.deviantart.com/gallery/#/dhxc95
<popey> tgm4883: you pung?
<mcbaine1> popey, :: I thnk it's over now but   ... sup .. anyway ??
<popey> hmm?
#ubuntu-tv 2013-01-02
<dcope> Hey all, any ETA for when tuner support will be added? I'm particularly interested in seeing it working with my cable box.
#ubuntu-tv 2013-01-03
<bobweaver> dcope,  hello
<bobweaver> tuner  support atm is with anything that will work in the kernel
<bobweaver> might have to fetch firmware here and there but alot of cards work
<bobweaver> dcope,  you do not need a cable box at all
<bobweaver> you just plug your cable line into you Ubuntu tv
<bobweaver> depending on where you live and the provider
<dcope> bobweaver: interesting
<dcope> i didnt' realize that you could plug the coax directly from the line-in to the tuner
<tgm4883> hmm
<tgm4883> it's a bit more compliated than that probably
<dcope> tgm4883: that's what i thought... i thought providers had some sort of authentication that the cable box performed.
<tgm4883> dcope, that is a part of it
<tgm4883> if you are in the US, it gets very dependent on who your provider is, what tuner you have, and what part of the country you live in
<tgm4883> and what channels you want to record
<dcope> oh wow
<dcope> well, ubuntu tv still looks pretty cool even if i can't get an epg & dvr
<tgm4883> The best is if you use a cable card tuner and your provider doesn't lock down the channels
<tgm4883> although an HDPVR can be said to be equally as good
<dcope> will the tv package be released to install upon an existing ubuntu instance?
<tgm4883> dcope, yes
<tgm4883> that is my understanding anyway
<dcope> awesome
<user82> are there ubuntu tv images ready for download?
<dcope> user82: not images, but you can install it
<user82> dcope, okay thanks..i have a set top box with arm(i think) but then it will not be easy
<dcope> user82: what settop to you have?
<user82> a "teufel mediastation". noone knows that thing but the update image was similar to other ones with custom firwares existent
<user82> linux kernel etc included...
<dcope> cool
<dcope> i have a roku now, but i am wanting to build a media center pc with ubuntu tv now
<user82> maybe that is clever..pc always keeps you flexible
<dcope> yep
<tgm4883> Saviq, is any of the remote control stuff you worked on regarding the issues with X?
<tgm4883> bobweaver, so I've got the guide data scope partially done, but I'm not sure I like the current implementation of it
<tgm4883> it takes way too long to query I think
<tgm4883> also, i haven't made it a lens yet
<tgm4883> jhodapp, mhall119, do you know if the scopes run all the time in the background?
<mhall119> tgm4883: currently yes
<tgm4883> currently?
<mhall119> you noticed that eh?
<mhall119> they're working on making the Dash smarter about starting and stopping scope processes
<tgm4883> mhall119, well, I think I need to have the guide data get pulled down periodically, even when the dash is closed
<mhall119> tgm4883: then you'll probably want that to run outside of the scope process, using cron or something
<tgm4883> otherwise it's too slow when it needs to retreive updates (which i've set to every 12 hours)
<tgm4883> hmm ok
<tgm4883> mhall119, so my second is regarding vala
<tgm4883> I'm told vala is faster than python?
<mhall119> I believe that's true, yes
<mhall119> Vala gets "compiled" into C, then compiled into a native binary
<tgm4883> currently, even with the guide data local, it takes 4-5 seconds to return a search result
<tgm4883> i'm thinking vala might make that faster
<mhall119> maybe, especially for large amounts of data
<Saviq> tgm4883, issues with X as in sequence IDs > 255?
<tgm4883> Saviq, yea
<tgm4883> mhall119, yea that is what I'm dealing with
<tgm4883> 14 days of guide data for all channels you have
<Saviq> tgm4883, there's workarounds, one of which is a patched evdev driver that lets you remap keys from the > 255 space to the <= 255 one
<Saviq> tgm4883, and the other is hidmapper, a small tool that talks to the USB HID interface directly
<Saviq> and lets you map HID calls to X11 keys (again, <= 255)
<tgm4883> Saviq, yea, we've (mythbuntu) got a ticket into the v4l guys hoping they will carry a patch to fix some stuff until X gets it all worked out
<Saviq> tgm4883, so it's http://forum.xbmc.org/showthread.php?tid=88560 or http://www.mythtv.org/wiki/Remapping_remote_control_key_codes_greater_than_255
<tgm4883> Saviq, yea that is pretty much what we were working with as well
<tgm4883> trying to drop lirc
<Saviq> tgm4883, looking at https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=11227 it's not promising
<Saviq> we might get wayland before then...
<tgm4883> :/
<tgm4883> mhall119, I don't suppose vala can talk to python directly
<mhall119> no
<tgm4883> bummer
<tgm4883> I'll need to figure out a way to do previews then without recoding a bunch of stuff
<mhall119> there's always dbus :)
<tgm4883> I'm not super familiar with doing stuff over dbus
<tgm4883> but it might be worth looking into I suppose
<Saviq> tgm4883, re python vs. vala, I wouldn't bet vala will get you anywhere close to "fast enough"
<Saviq> tgm4883, proper data storage will
<tgm4883> Saviq, proper data storage?
<tgm4883> it's all json atm
<Saviq> tgm4883, exactly
<tgm4883> Saviq, there is a better way to store that info in python?
<Saviq> tgm4883, I'd say there's many
<Saviq> tgm4883, re "if scopes run all the time" - yes, but data is only requested when the relevant scope is shown
<Saviq> tgm4883, i.e. only when the scope gets a viewType = Visible set
<Saviq> only then will the scopes be queried for data
<Saviq> that isn't to say that the scope might prepare that data in memory before then
<tgm4883> Saviq, currently, it pulls json guide data into memory on a search. The first search takes 30+ seconds, but a second search takes 4
<tgm4883> so the guide data is in memory at that point
<tgm4883> and from memory, it takes 4 seconds to search, which IMO is too long
<Saviq> tgm4883, yeah so here the biggest issue is that we transfer the whole set of data
<Saviq> tgm4883, instead of just the relevant part that's being shown
<Saviq> i.e. pagination
<mhall119> yeah, partitioning the data when you download it would help
<tgm4883> Saviq, as in, not 14 days of data?
<Saviq> mhall119, not even that
<mhall119> or throw it into an sqlite db or something?
<Saviq> tgm4883, yes, currently there's no way to paginate in the lenses/scope infrastructure
<Saviq> mhall119, there's basically multiple places that need fixing
<mhall119> tgm4883: also remember that anything you add to the search results model is being serialized and passed over dbus
<tgm4883> I don't think partitioning the data would work. For just viewing the guide yes, but searching would only see data in the loaded partition
<mhall119> doing that to 14 days worth of channel data is going to be slow in any language
<tgm4883> i'm kinda leaning toward syncing to a local sqlite table, then on search just querying that
<tgm4883> then I can do 1 day of data for the default "" search, although I'm wondering how much data was being passed over dbus for the searches
<tgm4883> because while it was 14 days of data, I'm not returning everything to the lens, just the relevant stuff
<tgm4883> which is maybe 20ish results
<tgm4883> so it sounds more like it takes way too long to search though 14 days of data
<Saviq> tgm4883, yeah, that's 'cause you don't have indexing, even if you have it all in memory
<Saviq> it just goes through all of that data to compare
<tgm4883> Saviq, sqlite should fix that, or is there a better way
<Saviq> it'll be faster, but I'd look at some proper free-text search engines like lucene
<Saviq> tgm4883, there's also http://voices.canonical.com/jussi.pakkanen/2012/12/03/introducing-libcolumbus-a-fast-online-approximate-matching-library/
<Saviq> which should help with the searching in memore
<Saviq> memory
<tgm4883> Saviq, is that something I would need to use explicitly, or is that making it's way into unity?
<Saviq> tgm4883, it can't really make its way into unity, it needs to be as close to the data as possible
<tgm4883> ok
<Saviq> tgm4883, so in your case you'd initialize libcolumbus when initially reading the data from json
<Saviq> or from whatever storage you choose
<Saviq> then at least searching will be faster - you'll just need to have an ID by which to identify a data record
<mhall119> tgm4883: libcolumbus needs to be pre-populated with a list of "correct" values that it uses to match a submitted "incorrect" value against
<mhall119> so you'd need to initialize it with a list of program names, then you can give it a search term with typos and it'll get you it's best match
<jhodapp_> tgm4883, I've got an example program written in C++ that uses libcolumbus if you're interested
<dcope> Wonder if anyone will integrate Google play (music) into ubuntu tv?
<mhall119> dcope: does it offer an API?
<dcope> mhall119: i'm not sure
<bobweaver> dcope,  what are you 2 talking about ?
<mhall119> dcope: if it does, someone can write a scope for it, and it'll be available in Ubuntu (desktop, TV, and phone)
<tgm4883> google music
<bobweaver> ahh
<tgm4883> IIRC, it has a non-public API
<mhall119> non-public?
<mhall119> meaning you have to authenticate using OAuth or something?
<bobweaver> yeah Unoffical
<dcope> https://github.com/simon-weber/Unofficial-Google-Music-API
<mhall119> oh, unofficial, that's different
<mhall119> requiring OAuth would be fine, we could make an Ubuntu Online Accounts provider
<dcope> i'm so ready to get ubuntu tv installed on something to contribute and test
<bobweaver> dcope,  I have a 3rd party ppa if you like
<bobweaver> for 12.04
<tgm4883> bobweaver, is that on the wiki
<bobweaver> Not this one
<dcope> bobweaver: sure
<bobweaver>  ~u2t/bleedingedge
<bobweaver> Must be 12.04
<dcope> i'll get it in a vm now and then put it on a dedicated machine once i get one
 * tgm4883 sees the irony in that
<dcope> tgm4883: ?
<bobweaver> https://launchpad.net/~u2t/+archive/bleedingedge
<tgm4883> bleedingedge
<tgm4883> <bobweaver> Must be 12.04
<dcope> oh
<bobweaver> what it is a move up from 11.10
<tgm4883> true
<bobweaver> tgm4883,  even has settings and loves you orig scope :)
<tgm4883> bobweaver, sweet
<bobweaver> tgm4883,  AORN http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qb8s7pSBu30&feature=youtu.be
<tgm4883> is it running up to date scope?
<bobweaver> I just made that video 3 minutes ago or something like that
<tgm4883> bobweaver, I've been working on the guide data scope, but I've got some issues to work out
<tgm4883> too much data
<bobweaver> II will be finishing up the settings and making more and more myth  stuff
<bobweaver> tgm4883,  dont worry about the guide if it is giving you that much trouble
<tgm4883> bobweaver, nah, i've got it worked out I think with the help of mhall 119 jhod app and Sa viq
<bobweaver> I can write a html5 app that connects to myth backend and read from that and launch also
<tgm4883> I haven't done any lens work on it though, and IDK the status you got on the different layout
<bobweaver> I have 6 different layouts now
<bobweaver> only 3 are stable at this point
<bobweaver> I kinda got caught up doing opengl stuff last night and particals and shaders so that set me back a little
<tgm4883> bobweaver, ok, i'm going to work on speeding this thing up with the fixes we discussed today
<tgm4883> as it takes too long for search results right now
<mhall119> bobweaver: I like the way you did the lightdm options
<bobweaver> Yeah that is what I got all caught up in lol
<bobweaver> I am posting a video of some experamental stuff
<bobweaver> Turn down Volume
<bobweaver> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Acjb5fkiCB4
<bobweaver> btw that reads the weather outside and returns icons that are preset for weather
<bobweaver> I am going to remove it all
<bobweaver> well the weather part and what not and just have a weather app
<bobweaver> But yeah if it was sunny outside it would have shown little suns flaying around and not snow
<bobweaver> because you can only call api so may times a day it uses cache for ever 6 hours
<bobweaver> mhall119,  do you think that it is a good idea to scale the icons in lightdm settings menu ?  maybe even pulse them ?
<mhall119> bobweaver: I have no idea, maybe ask one of the design guys on G+?
<bobweaver> thanks I am mhall119  :)
#ubuntu-tv 2013-01-04
<bobweaver> Does anyone know If I can use the words "Universal Access" as a term or is it under apple stuff ?
<mhall119> bobweaver: I think that's fair to use for accessibility stuff
<mhall119> it's used by the desktop accessibility app
<bobweaver> thanks
<mhall119> oh hey, TV meeting in 5 minutes
<mhall119> bobweaver: tgm4883: around for that?
<tgm4883> yep
<tgm4883> mhall119, #ubuntu-meeting?
<tgm4883> mhall119, #ubuntu-meeting   ?
<mhall119> yeah
<tgm4883> ok
<bobweaver> sorry was sleeping
<bobweaver> what did I miss ?
<mhall119> bobweaver: we've decided to port the whole thing over to Cocoa and iOS
<mhall119> :)
<bobweaver> lol
<bobweaver> have fun with that
#ubuntu-tv 2013-01-06
<AOEO_> hello?
<AOEO_> I need help
