#ubuntustudio-devel 2010-08-02
<ScottL> crimsun, jussi persia stochastic TheMuso : i would like to get your opinions on the network-admin bug #570828
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 570828 in gnome-system-tools (Ubuntu) "gnome-network-admin on UbuntuStudio doesnt allow to configure either wired networks or wireless" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/570828
<ScottL> basically, the UI has been removed that allows network configuration because network-manager was implemented and they wanted only one place to make the configuration
<ScottL> i have not had much luck in either fixing the problem or getting someone already involved to fix it
<ScottL> so i was thinking that perhaps we should drop in network-manager as a replacement for network-admin in the last alpha and test it
<ScottL> if we don't see too many adverse effects perhaps we might consider using network-manager as default
<ScottL> thoughts?
<crimsun> hmm. That's a tough one. I think replacing g-n-a with n-m is the way to go.
<crimsun> In the end, if the issues lie in the kernel and in n-m, they need to be fixed for everyone.
<TheMuso> crimsun: Agreed. We already ship nm-applet, not hard to move it to desktop.
<TheMuso> crimsun: BTW, do you have a pointer to your ossproxy packaging anywhere? Would like to test/get it into maverick.
<scott-work> it looks like the qjackctl ports-rename SRU is marked as "fix released"...yay
<scott-work> thank you again crimsun for you help doing that :)
<scott-work> it feels good to substantially improve the quality of the release for a LTS version
<scott-work> TheMuso: did you know that phonon is installed on the ubuntu studio ISO?
<falktx> hm, scott-work, really?
<falktx> phonon is a qt/kde thing
<scott-work> lol falktx i just posted in OSM to you
<falktx> hehe, cool
<scott-work> yeah, /pool/main/p/phonon/libphonon4_4.7.0really4.4.2-0ubuntu1_i386.deb /pool/main/p/phonon/phonon-backend-xine_4.7.0really4.4.2-0ubuntu1_i386.deb /pool/main/p/phonon/phonon_4.7.0really4.4.2-0ubuntu1_all.deb
<scott-work> or in readable human english
<falktx> oh, and xine as well I suppose
<scott-work> libphonon4_4.7.0really4.4.2-0ubuntu1_i386.deb
<falktx> scott-work: look for xine too
<scott-work> phonon-backend-xine_4.7.0really4.4.2-0ubuntu1_i386.deb
<scott-work> phonon_4.7.0really4.4.2-0ubuntu1_all.deb
<scott-work> hmmm, libxine1-bin_1.1.18.1-4ubuntu3_i386.deb libxine1-console_1.1.18.1-4ubuntu3_i386.deb libxine1-misc-plugins_1.1.18.1-4ubuntu3_i386.deb libxine1-x_1.1.18.1-4ubuntu3_i386.deb libxine1_1.1.18.1-4ubuntu3_i386.deb
<falktx> that's too bad for a gnome distro
<falktx> which app is pulling those?
<scott-work> i don't know and not sure how to find it other than hunt and peck
<falktx> scott-work: any "kde" packages ?
<falktx> kdelibs5 for example?
<scott-work> falktx: no kde other than "disKDEfines"
<scott-work> i'm guessing totem might be pulling xine in?
<falktx> yep, i'm looking at the list now
<falktx> totem has both gstreamer and xine backends
<falktx> i'm sure it's not totem
<falktx> probably qt libs instead
<falktx> scott-work: do you have a recent install of ubuntustudio?
<scott-work> i'm at work so not at the moment
<falktx> you can easily check there which package is pulling the xine/phonon thing...
<falktx> oh
<falktx> i can install it now to test
<falktx> downloading the latest iso, I'll install it on virtualbox and check this for you
<scott-work> sweet :)
<falktx> enterprise internet is awesome!
<scott-work> lol
<falktx> 1m to complete download
<falktx> hehe, 7.0Mb/s
<falktx> done, installing it now
<scott-work> are you going to use 'rdepends' to find this?
<falktx> synaptic
<falktx> gui is better
<falktx> scott-work: the installation failed, cannot find kernel
<falktx> i'll try to install even without kernel, but that will cause issues of course
<falktx> should be enough for this xine/phonon thing too
<scott-work> hmmm, interesting that the kernel failed :(
<falktx> another error about aptitude
<falktx> "Can't exec 'aptitude': No such file or..."
<falktx> afaik, aptitude was removed from default ubuntu installs
<falktx> why does ubuntustudio still needs it?
<falktx> installation failed! I'll try reinstall
<falktx> scott-work: ubuntustudio is uninstallable
<falktx> 1st error - cannot find kernel
<falktx> 2nd error - trying to use aptitude while it's not installed anymore, gives errors after setting user password
<falktx> the 2nd error is the worse, the installation just stops
<falktx> I'll install the "command-line only" option, then checking the ubuntustudio packages to see what pushes phonon
<falktx> scott-work: it seems like all ubuntu alternate cds are now broken... :((
<falktx> (maverick only, lucid is still fine)
<scott-work> falktx: most disturbing, i wonder if the server ISO is broken also, i will download a daily of both server-alternate and ubuntustudio for maverick tonight and see
<falktx> i think it's because of the aptitude removal
<falktx> the kernel not found i'm not sure
<scott-work> this might be slightly bad since we are scheduled to release the next alpha ISO this Friday i think
<scott-work> i wonder if this is a problem with installing in VM or just a problem holistically
<falktx> the aptitude error is bad, i'm sure it will happen to everyone
<scott-work> i wonder if this is a transitory problem, it would surprise me if no one thought about this being a problem at Canonical or with one of the core-devs involved
<falktx> probably ubuntu changed the aptitude thing on their alternate cds
<falktx> for what i can tell, scripts are ran when installing from an alternate cd
<falktx> one of those scripts has "aptitude" in line 2
<falktx> since aptitude is no longer in ubuntu-minimal package (installed before the kernel),
<falktx> everything else will fail for those who depends on aptitude
<scott-work> falktx: you downloaded from the daily?
<falktx> scott-work: yes, daily/current
 * abogani_ waves
<scott-work> hi abogani  :)
<holstein> w00t
 * holstein started using abogani 's kernel PPA
<scott-work> hi holstein  :)
<scott-work> bye holstein  :)
<TheMuso> ScottL: Yes, kde apps pull it in.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2010-08-03
<ScottL> hi troy, read your latest and like it
<ScottL> i've been working on a bigger sized post and should be through soon which should be followed by a few shorter ones, even talking about blender :)
<ScottL> TheMuso, i heard Poettering talking today about systemd, he really impressed himself with his work on it :P
<TheMuso> ScottL: Yeah I've heard about it.
<ScottL> i knew you about systemd already, you and talked briefly about it before, but it was a little weird hearing him fawn over his own work though (even if it is good)
<TheMuso> Lennart is good at doing that.
<ScottL> TheMuso, question about working with the seeds
<TheMuso> ScottL: Sure.
<ScottL> should multiple changes be broken between different versions?
<ScottL> e.g. adding lv2 applications and perhaps hydrogen-drumkits
<ScottL> TheMuso, i guess my question could be better asked as...should disparate changes be avoided in the same branch revision for clarity ?
<TheMuso> ScottL: No, as long as you clearly state in the ocmmit message what has been changed, thats fine.
<ScottL> TheMuso, it may appear that i am asymptotically approaching adding things to the seeds but i want to make sure i have some time afterwards to fix anything that might go wrong
<ScottL> hopefully this week though it will be done :)
<TheMuso> ScottL: ok cool.
<TheMuso> ScottL: Let me know when its done, and I'll upload a new ubuntustudio-meta package.
<ScottL> TheMuso, did you read anything that falktx mentioned earlier about aptitude and it causing the installation to fail?  aptitude should still be in the repos I would imagine, just not shipped with desktop
<ScottL> i've already downloaded the server ISO and am downloading the daily studio ISO and will test at least the server ISO tonight, my guess is that it was him installing in VM though
<TheMuso> ScottL: no I didn't, but afaik aptitude is not shipped by default, even ni Studio.
<TheMuso> in
<ScottL> TheMuso, this link shows that aptitude_0.6.3-2ubuntu3_i386.deb is included: http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/ubuntustudio/daily/current/maverick-alternate-i386.list
<TheMuso> hrm ok
 * TheMuso checks seeds.
<TheMuso> hrm not sure what pulls it in.
<ScottL> TheMuso, i discovered some other information...aptitude-0.4.11.1 has been in maverick since 4/9/10 but replaced by a series of builds that failed or had dependency issues
<ScottL> aptitude-0.3.2-2ubuntu3 was finally release 7/30/10    or three days ago
<ScottL> *shrug* maybe something is up with aptitude
<ScottL> i'm downloading the ubuntustudio-maverick ISO tonight and tomorrow i'll try to install it
<ScottL> err, that should be aptitude-0.6.3-2ubuntu3 released 7/30/10
#ubuntustudio-devel 2010-08-04
<ScottL> TheMuso, just an FYI, i've installed both the ubuntu alternate and studio (alpha3) and did not experience any problems with install (aptitude) :)
<ScottL> i'm not sure what problem falktx was having, i'm still guessing because it was in VM *shrug*
<TheMuso> ScottL: ok
<TheMuso> right
 * abogani waves
#ubuntustudio-devel 2010-08-05
<troy_s> ScottL: Shame. You have died and quit blogging.
<ScottL> troy_s, no, no...i'm just finishing up a few other items, tasks really, then i'm at it again
<ScottL> troy_s, i've got one in the can, just wanted to put some distance between me and it before i do a final read
<ScottL> troy_s, then i'm going to do a quick video using blender, just a proof-of-concept, and i'll blog about it...using the node editor and such
<ScottL> troy_s, it'll be fun and a gas, people will laugh and cry, lovers with love, and i'll be on higher ground
<ScottL> the last two things i want to do will be answer interview questions for The Fridge (look, i used capital letters again, that's important) and finish the final recordings for a song i've been working on
<ScottL> troy_s, it's mad, crazy, but in the past four days i've already got the germination for three new songs, now that i'm writing and recording again it's starting to flow
<ScottL> troy_s, plus i've been knocking around with some logo stuff for ubuntu studio, i'll be posting something about that soon as well
<ScottL> been listening to a lot of Sly and the Family Stone lately....good stuff, puts hair on your chest
<TheMuso> ScottL: That stuff with blender sounds awesome.
<troy_s> TheMuso: Greets Luke. Long time no chatty.
<TheMuso> troy_s: Indeed.
<troy_s> TheMuso: How have you been?
<troy_s> TheMuso: You still working at Canonical?
<TheMuso> troy_s: Busy, but otherwise well thanks.
<TheMuso> troy_s: Yes.
<troy_s> TheMuso: How's that going?
<TheMuso> troy_s: Quite well thanks.
<ScottL> TheMuso, yeah, i'm pretty excited because first it will be hella cool plus no one is blogging about it so i think i might get a small series of posts about making it work
<ScottL> TheMuso, i'm talking about using the node editor in blender for video
<TheMuso> ScottL: I'd be rather interested in that actually
<ScottL> TheMuso, i had already mentioned to troy_s that in about three or four weeks i have a friend from work that will bring his HD camera (which beats the shit out of my $300 camcorder) and record me for about an hour
<TheMuso> heh cool.
<TheMuso> Any wirtten instructions anywhere?>
<TheMuso> written
<troy_s> ScottL: If you get interested enough, the T2i's are extremely affordable.
<ScottL> i'm going to try to put about four separate me's into the same shot playing the same song (the one i'm desparately trying to finish)
<ScottL> TheMuso, this is the only thing (and i mean the ONLY) thing on the web that i've found about really using blender's node editor for movies
<ScottL> http://www.linuxjournal.com/article/9831
<ScottL> at least for explaining it
<TheMuso> ah ok.
<troy_s> I've done a handful of tests with it.
<troy_s> Mostly for other folks.
<troy_s> And of course, my own projects.
<ScottL> troy_s, we'll see how this movie goes, i might need to upgrade the computer first, but i'm thinking about doing music semi-professionally in a way
<troy_s> ScottL: A friend of mine did a short little thing with his girl, I'm looking for it.
<troy_s> ScottL: I took it and did a quick demo of some of the compositor stuff.
<ScottL> troy_s, songs are coming faster and better than before, the melody and lyrics were always like pulling teeth, but now the melody is coming quicker and i'm getting the first lyrics pretty quickly as well
<ScottL> troy_s, when i get enough for an album i'll record some videos as well
<ScottL> troy_s, i'll see about doing my own album art and then rinse, repeat
 * ScottL is bloody tired and going to bed
<ScottL> good night troy_s and TheMuso 
<TheMuso> ScottL: night
<scott-work> looks like luis is still alive :)  http://twitter.com/luisbg/status/20402425209
#ubuntustudio-devel 2010-08-06
<ScottL> troy_s, new post is up - http://dullass.blogspot.com/2010/08/state-of-ubuntu-studio-2010.html
<ScottL> and just for the record, i really like audacious's gtk interface better than the winamp ones (bleack)
<ScottL> and i like that the gtk interface seems to come as default 
<troy_s> ScottL: If you want to stir things up, shut it down. ;)
<troy_s> ScottL: Or at least perhaps start murmuring about it.
<troy_s> ScottL: It may wake people up to the reality that they may not see and / or jar people out of complacency.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2010-08-07
<ScottL> troy_s, sorry, i've got a million things going on in my head right now and i'm not sure i understand what you are saying
 * holstein adding ScottL 's post the the ubuntu weekly news letter :)
<holstein> This post is from the blog 'Confessions of a Ubuntu Studio Developer' by Scott Lavender, currently the project lead for Ubuntu Studio. In this post, Scott gives us the facts on where the Ubuntu Studio project is right now, and where it is heading, and how the community can get involved to help the project maintain momentum. For those of us who take advantage of the Ubuntu Studio packages and development, this is a must-read, 'call to action'.
<paulopinheiro> Good Evening from Brasil!
<paulopinheiro> Is rt kernel working with ext4 filesystem already?
<holstein> paulopinheiro: AFAIK
<holstein> im using it with no issues i can find
<holstein> 32 and 64bit
<paulopinheiro> which kernel version are you using, holstein?
<holstein> i was using the one from the repo
<holstein> i think its the older one from karmic
<holstein> but i added https://launchpad.net/~abogani/+archive/ppa
<holstein> ive been using that one ^^ for a week or so on the 64bit box
<paulopinheiro> ok. I updated to Lynx and decided to use ext4 (I used Reiserfs before). Since then I couldn't use the rt kernel
 * holstein found the PPA purge feature in ubuntu-tweak
<holstein> and ive been trying some PPA's
<holstein> paulopinheiro: yeah?
<holstein> whats the error?
<paulopinheiro> It's been a long time I did it. But as I can remember, it used to freeze at startup
<paulopinheiro> Just after GRUB
<holstein> hmmm
<paulopinheiro> Since then I've been looking for news about it
<holstein> what makes you think its file system related?
<holstein> i assume you can boot normally with the generic kernel
<paulopinheiro> I read somewhere that there was some kind of incompatibility
<paulopinheiro> yes
<holstein> paulopinheiro: there is another kernel
<holstein> low-latency
<holstein> that might do it for you
<holstein> if your not doing any realtime effects processing, or a lot of live soft-synth playing, the generic kernel might do it
<paulopinheiro> isn't that deprecated by rt?
<holstein> from what i understand, its a new thing
<holstein> a low-latency kernel package, and an RT one
<paulopinheiro> I stopped messing with sounds, waiting for a kernel upgrade. Until then I'm using generic
<paulopinheiro> I already have RT installed, but only on grub
<paulopinheiro> version 2.6.31.11
<paulopinheiro> 2.6.31-11-rt
<paulopinheiro> But thank you, holstein. I'll try it again
<holstein> i would wonder if its some device that is not working with that kernel
<holstein> paulopinheiro: it wouldnt hurt anything to add that PPA
<holstein> https://launchpad.net/~abogani/+archive/ppa
<holstein> and try that updated kernel
<holstein> you can always undo that
<paulopinheiro> Sorry to ask: what is a PPA?
<holstein> try that RT kernel
<holstein> paulopinheiro: you know what a repository is?
<paulopinheiro> yes
<holstein> its like adding a repository
<holstein> Personal Package Archive
<paulopinheiro> ok
<holstein> you add an alternate place to get packages from
<holstein> either more up to date ones, or different ones
<paulopinheiro> So I add it to my software channel list
<holstein> yeah
<holstein> i do it in synaptic
<holstein> but you can add it so the sources file
<holstein> you add his PPA
<paulopinheiro> ok
<paulopinheiro> thank you, holstein
<paulopinheiro> I'll try it :)
<holstein> and do sudo apt-get install linux-realtime
<holstein> and you got it :)
<holstein> you can just search linux-realtime in synaptic and remove them if it doesnt work out
<holstein> its worth a try
<holstein> good luck 
<paulopinheiro> How does it go the complete line?
<paulopinheiro> deb https://launchpad.net/~abogani/+archive/ppa 
<paulopinheiro> deb https://launchpad.net/~abogani/+archive/ppa lucid main ?
<paulopinheiro> Ok... I found it... sorry to ask. It's on the page
<holstein> deb http://ppa.launchpad.net/abogani/ppa/ubuntu maverick main 
<holstein> deb-src http://ppa.launchpad.net/abogani/ppa/ubuntu maverick main
<holstein> OOPS
<holstein> deb http://ppa.launchpad.net/abogani/ppa/ubuntu lucid main 
<holstein> deb-src http://ppa.launchpad.net/abogani/ppa/ubuntu lucid main 
<holstein> paulopinheiro: and you have to get the 'key'
<holstein> import the key
<holstein> the 'signing key'
<paulopinheiro> 1024R/F141B61E
<holstein> i still do it the hard way
<holstein> i copy the key data to ta text file
<holstein> and import it in the import section under sources in synaptic
<holstein> im SURE there is an easier way though
<paulopinheiro> I'm learning to fly on-the-fly
<paulopinheiro> But it is funny! :)
<paulopinheiro> Thank you again! I'm downloading right now
<paulopinheiro> I just read Scott Lavender post on Planet Ubuntu
<holstein> AH
<holstein> glad you found us
<paulopinheiro> Abount Ubuntu Studio
<paulopinheiro> Is that something I could help using Java? (I think I see only C and Python products)
<holstein> paulopinheiro: im sure theres something you can do
<holstein> did you join the mailing list?
<holstein> it can be quiet on the IRC
<holstein> you can find ScottL on here though
<paulopinheiro> He is on the list
<holstein> he would be a good person to ask about getting more envolved
<holstein> paulopinheiro: AFAIK
<paulopinheiro> I'll be back here in a better moment. I don't know where he talks from. Here, in Brasil, it's already 0:05h
<holstein> sure
<holstein> ALSO #opensourcemusicians
<holstein> nice community over there
<paulopinheiro> Thank you one more time. I'll try a reboot now and see what happens in my new kernel :)
<holstein> :)
<paulopinheiro> bye
<ScottL> aw, thanks holstein, that rocks
<ScottL> holstein, you should see about getting your ubuntu membership
<holstein> im thinking about it
<holstein> i got my wiki straitened out
<holstein> i just want to make sure i have time for it
<ckontros> ScottL: I do kinda dig the "n" and the "d" connecting like you did.
<ScottL> ckontros, thanks :)
<ckontros> I'm going out to a lake in a bit. Hanging outdoors. But I'll try to tinker later. Defiantly next weekend.
<ckontros> ScottL: Try to talk to Troy a bit. See if he can give some direction, a style to go after. He'll most likely hate the idea of us using the new font but I kinda dig it.
<ckontros> Maybe try the "n" into the top if the "t"? Offsetting the text gives you some negative space to work with and makes it feel less boxy.
<ckontros> I'd try myself but Im in windows atm.
<ScottL> ckontros, yeah, i didn't did the new font at first either, but then i realized it was the abugergine (or how ever it is spelled) mroe than anything i didn't like
<ScottL> ckontros, seeing the lubutnu stuff made me realize that i didn't think it looked so bad in black and white
<ScottL> ckontros, i'm also out for a while running errands in town and have a wedding this afternoon
<ckontros> Sure sure. And note that the logo as I sent it isnt the strait font. Ubuntu's logo is actually condensed a little. So, what I sent you is in vector and not font.
<ckontros> And I squished the "ubuntu studio" as well.
<ckontros> ScottL: #7 I think has the best layout atm. Try developing that with the "n" and the "t" connected. See where the COF fits.
<ScottL> themuso makes jono's blog http://www.jonobacon.org/2010/08/07/making-ubuntu-more-accessible/
<ScottL> hi stochastic 
#ubuntustudio-devel 2011-08-01
<holstein> ScottL: not really a date
<holstein> we are busy at different times
<holstein> might be challenging to coordinate at first
<holstein> we could just try for any late nite
<holstein> maybe a wednesday?
<holstein> i usually dont have gigs on wednesday
<ScottL> holstein, sure :)
<ScottL> astraljava, crap!  i have left my notes at work about the seeds :(  i will get it first thing in the morning (6:30 am CST)
<astraljava> ScottL: No problem, I do have some actual work to do at work, you know. :)
<scott-work> okay astraljava , email sent, there are other changes to add new plugins but i would rather wait until we resolve the xfce transition
<scott-work> abogani: the linux-meta package has built and no longer fails, thank you for the help :D !
<scott-work> i'm surprise that the dash "-" seemed to be the culprit
<scott-work> very strange
<abogani> scott-work: don't mention it! :-)
<abogani> scott-work: 7.9 is building in my PPA.
<astraljava> scott-work: Okay cool. It was a busy day at work, so I didn't get a look at it yet. Now I need to hurry home, take the dog for a walk, and rush to a soccer match, so it'll take another 3.5 hours until I get to the issue. I'll get back to you on that though once I'm home again.
<astraljava> scott-work: Oh, didn't see it. Where did you send the email to?
<scott-work> astraljava:   the email was sent to: Janne Jokitalo <janne.jokitalo@gmail.com>
<scott-work> astraljava: would you prefer the ubuntu email address?  i can put that into my contacts then
<astraljava> scott-work: I guess you got my email. :) I would rather want ubuntu-related mail to that other one, just because I get all bug-mail and other similar stuff there. Sort of the logical place to go to, when discussing these matters. :) Thanks a bunch, appreciated!
<astraljava> I'm gonna get to work in a few minutes now, just need to sort out the issue of crashing applications on my desktop, so that I can listen to music from it while 'playing'. :)
<astraljava> scott-work: Currently Xubuntu is shipping edpfview, but on last night's meeting it was pretty much agreed (didn't check the minutes yet) that it'd be switched to evince. Now I know you mentioned to replace ristretto with evince, but I don't think that's really an equivalent. Still, we want evince instead of epdfview?
<scott-work> astraljava: ach, ja
<scott-work> you are correct, ristretto is a image viewer, isn't it?
<scott-work> and epdfview would be replaced by evince
<astraljava> Yep.
<astraljava> Although ristretto is being replaced, but we don't yet know with which.
<scott-work> i think we currently ship eog (eye of gnome)
<astraljava> Oh okay, but if we base if on Xubuntu, then we might have two by default.
<scott-work> astraljava: oh, i'm not saying we stay with eog, just point it out
<astraljava> Sure, sure.
<astraljava> Will just make a note, so that I won't forget anything, and can ask about them in the meeting.
<astraljava> So far, I'm not seeing evolution nor gnumeric explicitly marked in the seeds, so I will have hunt them down to see where they're coming from.
<astraljava> Errr... sorry, gnumeric's there. Now what was the other one?
<scott-work> evolution?
<scott-work> actually it might not be there
<astraljava> You had that listed. Hang on, I'll check Luke's pastebin.
<astraljava> Yeah, it's not there.
<astraljava> brasero seems to be included already, so no need to add that, I just removed xfburn.
<astraljava> Okay, I'll push this one to LP. It would be good if someone looked at it, before we ask Luke to push it.
<astraljava> I removed all that we wanted to get rid of, instead of just commenting them out. We can fetch them from previous revisions, if needed (highly doubt it, though.) Should be in LP now.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2011-08-02
<falktx> hello
<astraljava> o/
<ScottL> falktx, for the iso scripts...the notes say that the 'adduser' portion doesn't work
<ScottL> and to not use it
<ScottL> does this include creating the groups as well ?
<falktx> ScottL: groups should be safe
<jussi> ahh, dammit, I cant waste my days away on irc anymore, there are company people here :/ :P
 * jussi steals astraljava's candy
 * astraljava curses epicly, but this time not only because of jussi 
<jussi> YES!!!!
 * falktx add ailo to his g+
<scott-work> falktx: did you see my comment about the iso scripts?
<falktx> yes
<falktx> ScottL: groups should be safe
<falktx> ^ my answer
<falktx> scott-work: there is a problem is pre-adding the ubuntu user, which makes the live-dvd hang on boot
<scott-work> okay, that's kinda what i felt it was saying but when i parse the statements i wasn't sure  :)
#ubuntustudio-devel 2011-08-03
<holstein> hello...
<holstein> we have a meeting scheduled for sunday
<holstein> im not going to be around
<holstein> would someone else like to take on sending the email? and chairing?
<astraljava> holstein: Sure, sure.
<holstein> astraljava: :)
<holstein> cool... i have a brunch gig, and i wont be home :/
<astraljava> No prob. I'll look into this later at home, I'm still at work (and the dog must be mighty pissed off by now). :-/
#ubuntustudio-devel 2011-08-04
<holstein> astraljava: you want me to send the reminder email and all that?
<astraljava> holstein: No, thanks, I can do that in a couple of hours, just gotta fish for the template in the archives. :)
<holstein> astraljava: thanks
<holstein> let me know if i can do anything pre or post meeting :)
<astraljava> holstein: If you have time, could you check the desktop seed, and give us your input on the apps selection?
<astraljava> holstein: Find it here: https://code.launchpad.net/~ubuntustudio-dev/ubuntu-seeds/ubuntustudio.oneiric
<holstein> astraljava: i just do 'browse code' right?
 * holstein looking
<astraljava> holstein: I forget whether you can do that in LP, if not, just branch it out.
<holstein> hehe... ill google that and see if i can figure out what it means ;)
<astraljava> :) There are actually instructions on how to do that on the page. All you need to do is install bzr before that.
<holstein> lol
<holstein> this is about the help level i have come to expect
<holstein> i click 'answers' and https://answers.launchpad.net/ubuntu-seeds
<holstein> anyways... i'll RTFM later and see if i can look at that
<holstein> i installed bzr, and i installed that before for some reason
<astraljava> That's just because no-one set up the answers app for ubuntu-seeds.
<astraljava> holstein: All you need to do is `sudo aptitude install bzr`, and then `bzr branch lp:~ubuntustudio-dev/ubuntu-seeds/ubuntustudio.oneiric`. That latter command is actually on the page of ubuntustudio.oneiric, but yeah. You kinda need to know this stuff. :)
<astraljava> Ahh... sorry, didn't read it all.
<holstein> astraljava: so... im getting it
<holstein> those just come in to whatever directory im cd'd into?
<astraljava> holstein: Yes, and it should name the new directory by the branch name (ie. ubuntustudio.oneiric)
<holstein> found it :)
<astraljava> The file that we're mostly interested in is desktop, but feel free to poke around on the other stuff as well, you might have some cool ideas.
 * holstein is -1 on bluetooth
<astraljava> But we're probably not gonna make any huge changes, considering we're nearing beta now, so we've not got much time to experiment.
<holstein> of course, we should see what size it is
<holstein> its not like we can ever fit on a CD
<astraljava> Well... people have bluetooth mice and keys. I bet it's something we might be interested in keeping.
<astraljava> True.
<holstein> if its small-ish, and doesnt run in the background by default, why not
<holstein> i can see folks coming in "my mouse used to work, you guys suck"
<holstein> ;)
<astraljava> I kinda think it's purpose is to run in the background by default, cause people will wonder why they can't connect their peripherals, if it's not.
<astraljava> Yeah. :D
<holstein> i pretty much agree with what we were loosely talking about before
<holstein> keeping the overall experience similar
<holstein> and chaning the DE
<holstein> *then* we can change some bigger stuff in the next cycle
<holstein> so its not a whole bunch of change all at once
<holstein> astraljava: within reason
<holstein> if we didnt have BT, lets not have it
<holstein> of course, theres the argument that we should mirror the main ubuntu-desktop config
<holstein> who knows
<holstein> you cant please everyone...
<astraljava> Oh I know, but I will certainly try, still. :D
#ubuntustudio-devel 2011-08-05
<falktx> hm... UbuntuStudio daily images...
<falktx> http://cdimages.ubuntu.com/ubuntustudio/daily/current/
<astraljava> Damnit, I knew I forgot something. :( Oh well, next week, then.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2011-08-06
<ScottL> persia, when you have time would you ping me please?
<ScottL> i'll be in and out throughout the day
#ubuntustudio-devel 2011-08-07
<astraljava> Meeting at #ubuntu-meeting in T-7 hours.
<scott-upstairs> astraljava, ping
<astraljava> T minus 2 hours to the meeting, folks!
<astraljava> scott-upstairs: Excellent timing. :)
<scott-upstairs> oh, two hours still?
<astraljava> Wasn't it 1700 UTC.
<scott-upstairs> i don't honestly remember, mate ;)
<astraljava> Yes, yes it was.
<astraljava> :)
<astraljava> No worries, can you make it then?
<scott-upstairs> i should
<astraljava> Ok, that's good.
<scott-upstairs> i don't expect many
<scott-upstairs> i belive holstein said he wouldn't make it
<scott-upstairs> i don't know if ailo is currently active
<astraljava> Yeah, it's because I'm hosting.
<astraljava> I'll ping him on oftc.net as well.
<astraljava> I must admit, I haven't been very productive lately. But it should change now that I'll spend weekends not travelling all the time, and I should get a decent broadband in a couple of weeks, too.
<scott-upstairs> i don't think anyone has been productive :(
<scott-upstairs> be back in a few, going to record a few things in the interim
<ailo> I'm able to attend
<astraljava> ailo: Excellent, thanks! :)
<astraljava> Taking the dog for a walk before the meeting. Back in half an hour or so.
<astraljava> 5 mins.
<scott-upstairs> rightyo
<ailo> I wish UbuntuStudio was only a tune-up of any Ubuntu based distro, than being its own distro
<ailo> I wonder if that would make things any easier
<astraljava> ailo: It would, totally.
<astraljava> Personally, I wouldn't object to switching it over as a set of meta-packages.
<astraljava> However, I think the point was to provide a reasonable working set for multimedia creators on a single download.
<astraljava> Hence it's a DVD.
<ailo> Whatever happened to the -lowlatency kernel, btw? We didn't bring that up at all
<astraljava> Yeah, I kinda forgot about it. I don't think there were updates between the last meeting and today, though.
<astraljava> Let me double-check, though.
<astraljava> Hah!
<astraljava> Last build 5 days ago.
 * astraljava hangs head in shame
 * astraljava also adds that to the next meeting's agenda
<astraljava> But truth be told, if we're not gaining new contributors during the next cycle, we're pretty much doomed the way things are.
<astraljava> The present ones' share diminishes all the time, and if Scott's now parting, there's not many who can dedicate a decent amount of time on the project.
<astraljava> It's an LTS release, so we have to really push to make it shine.
<astraljava> I don't know the politics behind the special derivative position that US has, but unless it has certain limitations and whatnot, I'd make drastic changes from 12.04 onwards.
<astraljava> Let's hope it won't come to that, though.
<ailo> Ubuntustudio won't ever be the same again, since Gnome 2 is no more
<astraljava> That's true.
<ailo> Hope I can be of more use in the coming weeks
<ailo> I'll drop in during the week
<astraljava> ailo: Sure, thanks for whatever you can provide! :)
<holstein> w00t
<holstein> astraljava: thanks again for taking over
<holstein> looks like the meeting went well
<astraljava> holstein: It was okay, though we learnt some sad news on it.
 * holstein looking
<holstein> ah... i see
<holstein> astraljava: thats great that you would offer to step up to the lead task as well
<astraljava> holstein: It's not great (I'm not really a manager-sort of person), but I will not see the project die due to a missing leader.
<holstein> i think we should entertain a few backup plans
<holstein> maybe dropping a release all together at some point, and just maintaining meta pacakges?
<holstein> thats a bit extreme, but you see what im getting at...
<holstein> something we can handle, but not kill the project
<astraljava> holstein: Yeah, I was already thinking about that, but we do have to release for 12.04 LTS, it'd be really sad if we couldn't.
<holstein> im looking forward to the next LTS :)
<astraljava> After that, unless the official stance enforces, we could break the current procedure and see what would be the wisest move to make.
<astraljava> That would probably mean, though, that we'd lose the official derivative status.
<ScottL> astraljava, the -lowlatency kernel is kinda in limbo
<ScottL> i've taken it from abogani, packaged it, built it, and waiting for persia for comments
<ScottL> i'm considering taking it to the debiam multimedia team and asking if i can get it into debian first
<ScottL> although i don't think they will accept it though
<ScottL>  
<ScottL> astraljava, holstein...there are many things to consider about moving away from official derivative status with ISO image
<ScottL> and goals of projects change over time
<ScottL> if the target audience is not beginners then perhaps meta-packages are the future
<ScottL> but even if an audience and goals are defined, if no one is contributing then nothing gets done anyways
<ScottL> so perhaps we don't consider what it _should_ be, but consider what it _can_ be
<ScottL> adjust the audience and goals to match what can be realistically accomplish by those involved
<astraljava> ScottL: I would, in fact, imagine they'd accept it. Why not? Just as long as it follows debian policies, there shouldn't be an issue.
<astraljava> ScottL: I agree. We'd just need some figures and data on our user demographics.
<ScottL> astraljava, i was more concerned about who would readily be accepted as a maintainer
<ScottL> i'm not sure DMMT would be it or i would *shrug*
<astraljava> ScottL: Normally the packages fall under their umbrella, and then the whole team can maintain it.
<ScottL> astraljava, yes, but they are very good at building packages, not perhaps kernels
<ScottL> it's a bit different i'm learning
<astraljava> ScottL: You might be right, there.
<ScottL>  
<ScottL> i should mention also that i have not defintively decided to step down as lead
<ScottL> i _have_ definitively decided that some change is necessary
<astraljava> Oh okay, sorry I made a hasty conclusion, then. :)
<ScottL> i'm sorry if it seems like i was chastising you :)
<ScottL> i was unsure if i wanted to talk about it in a public forum yet and did not explain myself fully
<ScottL> but i felt that it was important to mention it so that plans can be made to address the changes that _will_ happen
<ScottL> i can tell you two changes that will happen
<ScottL> 1. i will not devote as much time to ubuntu studio
<ScottL> 2. i cannot be responisble for most of it either
<ScottL>  
<ScottL> the following is not directed at anyone in the channel but i want to explain a frustration of mine
<ScottL> people seem to want to help, but seem to be afraid of doing something wrong
<ScottL> mostly i suspect because these are unfaimiliar tasks or things they haven't done much before and have little experience
<ScottL> so nobody does _anything_ and shit falls to pieces
<astraljava> Yep. It's an intimidating world, I'll admit that.
<ScottL> sorry for the language
<astraljava> No worries, comes with the territory. :)
<ScottL> i also mentioned people taking on too many responsibilities
<ScottL> i'm not saying people shouldn't do this, but we should be realistic about it
<ScottL> agree on a list of things that need to be done, prioritize them, and people accept a single tasks
<ScottL> finish that task and then move onto another
<astraljava> It's part of what you mentioned already. Because people are new to these tasks, they won't know what's reasonable and what's overwhelming.
<ScottL> i suppose i am also frustrated by the lack of efficiency or progress
<astraljava> Also, they won't know how slow a big ship like ubuntu turns, in some cases.
<ScottL> which i suppose is inlarge part my fault as lead
<ScottL> "how slow a big ship"...very very true
<ScottL> falktx had problems with this as well
<ScottL>  
<astraljava> ScottL: Not really. You can't do everything. So like you said, tasks need to be distributed. If they don't get done, it's not your fault.
<ScottL> another point to contemplate
<ScottL> ubuntu studio doesn't have a charter or other document that defines leadership
<ScottL> i would suggest that we even consider having ubuntu studio governed by a small group
<ScottL> odd number, of course, but say a small group of three people
<ScottL>  
<ScottL> one thing that i am coming to understand is that the chances of something joining the group to take on a major task is small
<holstein> right
<holstein> but, a paid dev :)
<holstein> thats what im gunning for
<ScottL> for example, the website, it's not moving at all
<holstein> someone on payroll for the packages
<ScottL> aye, holstein, that would be awesome
<holstein> if that were going on, i think we could handle the site
<holstein> someone would have had the time
<ScottL> sorry if i sound picky, but there really aren't that many packages to tinker with
<ScottL> we have our meta packages and the -controls right now
<ScottL> but that doens't take too much time
<ScottL> not to say a real dev wouldn't be needed or useful, he/she would! ;)
<ScottL> sussing out plymouth themes, or UI or getting new graphics for background installed
<ScottL> huh, i guess a dev would be doing more than i thought with our packages ;)
<ScottL> but also updated the -controls would be good too
<ScottL> astraljava, i have a question for you
<holstein> well, maybe it'll be a dev that would do the site too ?
<holstein> i was just assuming it would be someone to do the kernel stuff you are dealing with
<holstein> and fix things that are borked
<ScottL> holstein, if it wouldn't be him/her it would probably be one of us to get it done then, so yeah
<holstein> or, something we can fix and put back in
<holstein> contribute
<ScottL> holstein, sorry if i sound pissy again, i agree that a dev would be really, really useful
<holstein> i mean, there are broken packages, we just put out fires :/
<astraljava> ScottL: Sorry, was AFK for a bit. Go ahead, shoot.
<ScottL> a picky point of mine is that people then think that we have a billion packages that we make, build, support and we reall don't
<ScottL> well, actually it's a question for astraljava and holstein 
<ScottL> since both of you have lead the team meeting do you feel like you will be more involved in the meetings in the future
<ScottL> even the ones you don't lead?
<holstein> not sure...
<holstein> depends really
<holstein> i hope so
<ScottL> do you think you might be less hesitant to do or say something now?
<ScottL> it is more familiar, less scary?
<astraljava> ScottL: Well, currently I'm in a phase of my life where I can definitely dedicate more time on my hobbies.
<astraljava> Ubuntu Studio is high on that list.
<ScottL> i was positing that perhaps we could have a rotating lead
<ScottL> i'm just throwing out ideas, mind you
<holstein> sure
<holstein> our LoCO is dying out
<astraljava> I've just gotten everything in (the new apartment, that is), I should be getting a good broadband connection, and thus get my devel env working again, etc.
<holstein> and we are trying that
<holstein> a lead group
<holstein> i think ubuntu womens does that?
<holstein> a team thats the lead, and that team is made up of whoever it needs to be
<astraljava> It might not be a bad idea at all. When would we rotate? Every cycle? Sooner?
<ScottL> maybe we could create a list of some of the responsibilities before we consider length of term
<ScottL> there are certain responsibilities that interface with external sources
<ScottL> it would probably be exceedingly unfair to ask them to coordinate with a new person every month
<ScottL> but perhaps per cycle it wouldn't be an undue burden
<ScottL>  
<ScottL> one of my personal goals as project lead was to prepare the team for my absence
<ScottL> that sounds morbid or fatalistic perhaps, but it's really just logical
<ScottL> i realized very early that i would not lead the team forever
<ScottL> this would make the team stronger and it would be able to adept if anyone left, i thought
<ScottL> i had wanted to grow the number of contributors so that this would be possible
<ScottL> and i would say that it seems i have failed on this account
<ScottL> at least in a sustained way
<ScottL> people come, people go...sometimes very quickly
<astraljava> Indeed, and the dedication has been somewhat flaky recently.
<astraljava> From my part, as well, I'm not denying that.
<astraljava> But I'm rather interested in picking up the ball, now.
<ScottL> lol, in action if not in spirit
<astraljava> ScottL: Do you think we would need something like this: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/StrategyDocument
<ScottL> i'm glad to hear that astraljava , that heartens me
<ScottL> astraljava, i think ubuntu studio would be well served to develop something that addresses some of those topics
<ScottL> i am reticent to say, "create the same document", i don't know that it should be the same document
<astraljava> It's rather lengthy, and quite possibly we wouldn't need all that, but it's got it down in black and white, of how the project is managed, and what the responsibilities are for the leading entity (be it a team or just one leader or whatever)
<ScottL> but addressing it's target audience would be a good start, i have grappled with that myself
<holstein> i mean, i would hate it, but it might be nice to go graphics
<ScottL> but again, what it _should_ be and what it _can_ be might not be congruent
<holstein> graphic/video
<ScottL> holstein, i'm not sure i understand
<holstein> AFAIK, theres not a distro focusing on that
<astraljava> holstein: let go, perhaps?
<holstein> as the target audience
<ScottL> fedora: design suite is in this direction
<holstein> it might be a way to get an audience into ubuntustudio
<ScottL> i would love to focus on this as well
<holstein> theres *so* many audio distros
<ScottL> there certainly isn't a plethora of these distrios as audio
<ScottL> heh, holstein you bet me ;)
<ScottL> but i wouldn't throw away the audio work though
<holstein> the talk in #ardour and where ever else is not favorable for US
<ScottL> that is important
<ScottL> why do you say that holstein ?
<holstein> we'll never when the savy back
<holstein> not for years
<holstein> ScottL: i see them
<holstein> they say ubuntu sucks
<holstein> try something else
<ScottL> ah
<holstein> i see them say, when an issue comes up...
<holstein> are you running ubuntu? well, what do you expect
<ScottL> i wonder how much of that is old bias...i also wonder about how much of that is true and current
<astraljava> holstein: We've only got ourselves to blame for that.
<holstein> everything is broken in ubuntu
<holstein> i cant help you...
<holstein> ive seen something *very* close to that from las himself
<holstein> and its his channel
<ScottL> astraljava, i think he may be talking about how vanilla ubuntu implements things that affects us
<astraljava> Ahh... okay then.
<holstein> he can say what he wants, but, we wont win that crowd over
<ScottL> holstein, is my statement here ^^^ correct?
<ScottL> brb
<holstein> ScottL: i saw an 'ubuntu has broken pacakges and sucks' message just last week
<astraljava> holstein: Sure, but why should their viewpoints alter our efforts?
<holstein> astraljava: right
<holstein> agreed
<holstein> im just sayin' really
<astraljava> I understand.
<holstein> we can take that into account when deciding
<holstein> like, we dont have to make an OS for the tech savvy
<holstein> i think the fact is, ubuntu has customizations that help make it 'just work'
<holstein> and we take advantage of those too
<holstein> that doesnt mean its broken though...
<astraljava> holstein: Yes, but it will bite us in some cases. Like, vanilla has NetworkManager, which can't be used in a real-time env.
<astraljava> Unless you disable all means of networking, but I'm pretty sure even then it sometimes polls the known networks for their existence and whatnot.
<ScottL> holstein, so, i'ts not some _we_ did, it's something that _ubuntu_ did that makes las and others dismiss ubuntu?
<holstein> ScottL: thats what i understane
<holstein> understand*
<holstein> its all over my head
<holstein> i have heard it in other circles though
<ScottL> okay
<holstein> customized libs?
<holstein> thats what it seemed like to me
<ScottL> yes it's over mine too most of the times, there's too much to understand/know
<holstein> yup
<ScottL> right, for some reason ubuntu changes something in a package just for them and it borks other things
<holstein> i just know, custom packages get blamed, and i know ubuntu repackages
<ScottL> mind you it's probably because ubuntu wants to do something particular for it's own packages/modifications
<holstein> i think it usually works to the end users advantage
<ScottL> and they don't think about how it will affect an audio package or audio or whatnot
<ScottL> holstein, but i think it does, just the audience that ubuntu wants to support, i.e. a desktop user running unity :P
<astraljava> Ubuntu is all about user experience. The core teams, while many in number, still only touch a handful of packages in the repos. The amount of packages to test is way too vast for them to cover all the scenarios, so yeah, sometimes some things break.
<astraljava> And the audio "pros" are likely of the few groups who would actually find out such scenarios.
<ScottL> oh, i forgot to say something again
<ScottL> astraljava, you pointed out the strategy document which triggered something
<ScottL> if i stay on as lead i would want to discuss the direction of each release with a group, rather than doing it myself
<astraljava> So yeah, when they broken something they won't support, they won't really care that much (well they do care, but since someone is paying their salaries, that someone wants other things fixed, possibly)
 * ScottL thought the strategy document was actually a 'planning for the next cycle' document
<holstein> do we ever have anyone at the developer meetings?
<astraljava> ScottL: Absolutely, which is why I'd like to create a council, similar to Xubuntu's.
<holstein> thats really what i think a salary team member would be good for
<holstein> filling in that gap
<ScottL> holstein, good point
<holstein> making sure our packages fit out needs
<ScottL> by the way, any progress on the paid dev?
<astraljava> holstein: I think Cory was, at some point, but he was not that technical.
<holstein> nah... no word from ak yet
<holstein> she said i needed to go to florida?
<holstein> UDS maybe?
<holstein> i forget
<astraljava> holstein: He could get around the system well, but he was not in the level of a MOTU, for example.
<holstein> im not that nutty about it
<ScottL> holstein, if it would help we can write a paper defining the uses and benefits
<holstein> astraljava: thats what i want for US... someone with that level of interaction
<holstein> ScottL: we'll need that
<holstein> i'll keep you all in the loop though
<ScottL> florida is where this UDS will be held in nov. i believe
<holstein> ScottL: that was is
<astraljava> holstein: Really?! Someone pays you to go to UDS (especially in friggin' Florida of all places), and you're reluctant to go?!
 * astraljava rolls eyes
<astraljava> ;)
<holstein> i loves me some buntu, but i cant take off a week 
<ScottL> holstein, if i could get off work i would go to florida as well
<holstein> i wont get paid though
<holstein> i'll get reimbursed
<ScottL> but i don't know that i could get off and i'm out of vacation time
<astraljava> Yeah I know what you mean. :)
<holstein> and, depending on the week, i could lose a grand or more
<holstein> i dont have $1000 weeks very often, but just my luck, that would be when id get a call for something juicy
<astraljava> Hehe. :)
<ScottL> heh
<holstein> i dont think we need to do that in person
<astraljava> ScottL: So, what do you think about such a council? You'd still have veto rights, as a leader, but you wouldn't have to think about, well practically anything alone.
<holstein> we get someone on salary, and they go to UDS in the future, and make sure we are taken care or
<astraljava> Well, UDS is the place where things get discussed.
<astraljava> It's always the most effective situation to make things go.
<astraljava> I wish I could go.
<astraljava> But, like you, I can't afford it.
<ScottL> astraljava, i wouldn't mind a council, i think it would be awesome to share responsibility
<astraljava> ScottL: So I guess we'll be writing a similar document, due next cycle, and vote it in place on October's meeting, and enjoy our newly-created decision-making structure for the... whateverthehellthenextanimalis?
<ScottL> i gave the xubuntu strategy document more attention, WOW, it's more inclusive than i thought
<astraljava> It is, really.
<astraljava> But we won't really need all that.
<ScottL> even if we only clearly and thoroughly identified our target audience and goals, that would an incredible step forware, IMO
<astraljava> Most definitely.
<astraljava> It might also help us gain more recognition and respect in the higher-ups, thus doing a teeny tiny part in getting a paid position at some point.
<ScottL> yeah, it would be one thing to eschew all this structure and still put out a good product
<ScottL> but i think we're not putting out that great of a product anymore
<ScottL> part of that is because we haven't a clue where we are trying to go
<holstein> i really think we should focus in on soemthing
<holstein> do audio only for example
<holstein> thats my selfish vote though
<ScottL> i admit that i was shaping ubuntu studio to what i wanted in a distro
<holstein> its not like the gimp and blender are going anywhere
<holstein> they'll be in the repos
<astraljava> ScottL: Isn't that what every leader _should_ do?
<holstein> and, those projects dont really need our help
<ScottL> not necessarily i think, especially it that direction is at odds with my desires
<astraljava> holstein: True, but as such, they're not incredibly hard to include, either.
<holstein> right, but does that make it better? or less clear?
<ScottL> but without a clear direction i did what i felt was best, i assure i didn't go fully in my desired direction though  ;)
<holstein> what is it?
<holstein> what are we doing?
<ScottL> ooops
<astraljava> ScottL: Well, like already established, we've limited resources, so things don't happen fast in an ecosystem like this.
<ScottL> s/i assure i didn't/i assure you that i didn't
<ScottL> astraljava, very true
<holstein> what we could do is just answer some questions on our own, and look at the answers
<astraljava> Yeah, I mean...
<holstein> i know what i would like it to be, and maybe thats not far off from what you guys think too
<ScottL> astraljava, but huge, sweeping and holistic changes _can_ happen quickly with changes of the seeds
<astraljava> We've contemplated on this question for how many releases now?
<ScottL> for example, dropping all video and graphics
<ScottL> not that i;m suggesting this
<holstein> 12.04 would be a great time for that to be solidified
<ScottL> i was hoping for 12.04 to include xfce and a livedvd
<astraljava> Let's face it, we're never gonna get hard facts from the community, I mean really, really solid numbers that would clearly define where we ought to go.
<holstein> yup, ScottL, those are on my list
<holstein> astraljava: agreed
<ScottL> ailo, it looks like we may be discussing 12.04, you want to be involved?
<holstein> this should be just because we want it, and can support it
<ScottL> this could be our 'strategy' meeting
<ScottL> holstein, beyond that, i think it's necessary
<astraljava> holstein: Exactly.
<ScottL> we don't compete otherwise
<holstein> a little bit of 'what do we want' and a lot of 'what can we handle'
<ailo> I'll read the scroll
<holstein> ailo: o/
<ScottL> ailo, okay, but i would appreciate you input too at some point :)
<ScottL> holstein, i think if one person focused on livedvd, it can be done
<ScottL> just can't saddle that person with documentation, website, testing, whatever else i can't think of, yadda, yadda
<holstein> i think it would be interesting to see what the answer to this question is.. 'if you were making your own ubuntustudio image, what would it be?'
<astraljava> Especially with the help of... falktx?
<holstein> and compare those anwers
<astraljava> Is he the one who has it already?
<holstein> and vote
<ScottL> astraljava, i worry about falktx's input because he doesn't like to move within the system and accepted practices
<ScottL> he's a great resource however, and talented for getting it done
<astraljava> ScottL: True.
<ScottL> the way he "fixes" things might not be acceptable for us to do
<astraljava> So should we just go with what vanilla has, I mean as a starting point?
<ScottL> astraljava, i think stating with xubuntu might be a good direction, maybe not though
<holstein> man... im blowing through naptime guys... i gotta get horizontal or i wont make it through the gig
<holstein> i'lll catch up later :)
<astraljava> ScottL: Yeah, he's like a getdeb.net of Ubuntu Studio. :D
<ScottL> i wouldn't copy the seeds and start there, is what i'm saying
<ScottL> astraljava, lol yeah
<astraljava> holstein: Sure, later. :)
<ScottL> bye holstein 
<ScottL> maybe we should wait until other people are involved to discuss 12.04 further
<astraljava> There's never gonna be that time.
<ScottL> but i really don't want to lose the video and graphical packages myself
<astraljava> We won't have to.
<ScottL> it happens from time to time though, but yeah, it isn't something to hope for
<astraljava> We're an official derivative, we can have users supported on the official channels.
<ScottL> i meant for of what mike said about focusing on certain aspects
<ScottL> although i though he wanted to focus on video and graphics, but then it sounded like he wanted to focus on audio
<ScottL> maybe i need to reread the scroll :P
<astraljava> I was confused about that as well.
<astraljava> First he said there are so many audio distros, but then that's what he wants to do after all.
<astraljava> Oh well, the point is, we're not limited by our capabilities of supporting the graphics and video apps, so we shouldn't have to drop them.
<ScottL> i'm making a transition in my personal life, i want to write and record more songs and then also do video for them as well
<astraljava> It's not like we are enhancing the workflows of the people who use them, but still.
<ScottL> so i'm moving into graphics and video currently
<astraljava> Cool, we need more people involved with those.
<ScottL> so i hope to develop some expertise with what works and what doesn't
<ailo> Video and graphics doesn't seem to be a problem area, does it?
<ScottL> i believe this has been what has been holding us back 
<ScottL> ailo, i believe it does
<ScottL> i don't think we are offering a complete solution for any particular need
<ScottL> we slapping a few "buzz" name applications on the image and call it V/G to compliment the A/
<ScottL> heh, conjugated verbs is not my forte today :P
<astraljava> Heheh. :)
<ailo> I hardly use graphic / video software, aside from Gimp, so I'm not an expert. 
<ScottL> i have been considering the audio seeds for a few cycle, but i'm not any more expert than others in the channel
<ScottL> and even then i asked others for their input as well, quite a few from #opensourcemusicians
<ailo> But, it seems to me that most people who deal with graphics or video, do so in a special field, and use particular programs to do it
<ScottL> ailo, i believe that to be true as well
<ScottL> but this is where the work flows are helpful
<ScottL> but we also need to define for whom are we making ubuntu studio
<ScottL> is it a rock band who wants to make fliers and video fro their songs?
<ScottL> it is the graphic artists?
<ScottL> is it someone who wants to make their own magazine, ala libre graphics magazine?
<ailo> In my opinion, that type of stuff is on such a high layer, it's really the last thing we should be worrying about
<ScottL> a complete palette is not available, but there are some wonderful tools available
<astraljava> Wonder if creating polls in the forums would actually give us any hints. Has it been done already?
<ScottL> ailo, i'm not sure i agree with that statement, without knowing what they need we can't give them what they want
<ailo> I know what I need as a musician
<ScottL> astraljava, i had considerd that too, icluding the mailing list and IRC channels
<ailo> I don't know about graphics, but as I said, I believe most people use specialized software for their needs
<ScottL> astraljava, i had also considerd using a web site (not ubuntu or canonical) that does polling to help
<ScottL> ailo, i'll give an example, i want to make video, i can do so with inkscape (for title screens, credits, etc) and blender
<ScottL> ailo, but i spoke with the libre graphics folk, they use agave, and fontspell (or whatever the name) and a bunch of others
<astraljava> ScottL: Other sites could make it more advanced, but as of now, since I'm not a web developer, I could implement it in the forums easily.
<ScottL> there is no union between those subsets
<ScottL> astraljava, sorry, i mean there are website that will run polls for free, use them to avoid excluding people that don't use the forums
<astraljava> Ahh... cool!
<ScottL> ailo, so, my point is that if we attempt to cover everyone, it will be a lot of packages for everyone to download
<ScottL> ailo, or we guess and make no body happy and no one uses ubuntu studio for graphics or video
<ScottL> ailo, i want to clearly identify what V/G are we supporting and build package set for that, just like the work flow
<ScottL> i think we are doing the "guess" option now and including packages that doesn't fully support much for V/G
<ailo> I don't think we should cover anyone. Just give some examples of typical software, and not have two programs for the same function, if possible, in a standard install
<ailo> In the documentation we can point to links where users can find info on other programs, that are available and not available in the repo
<ScottL> ailo, i entirely agree that we shouldn't cover everyone
<astraljava> Well, if someone downloads 1.5GBs worth of packages, only to find that he still needs more, as what he needs to do isn't covered completely by the DVD alone.
<ScottL> but i want to do more than just give examples of typical software
<ailo> I still think it's done in the documentation first, rather than in setting up the desktop
<ScottL> just including blender, openshot, gimp, and inkscape doesn't really support someone who really wants to do graphics or video
<astraljava> Hmm... lost my thought somewhere down the line. What I meant was that if we identified the workflows of certain "professions", it'd be good to include the most-often needed apps for them, or else they get pissed off for having to download even more.
<ScottL> so i'm saying that we need to evaluate what packages we are including to make sure they actually support doing something
<ScottL> astraljava, exactly, which is the work flows approach
<ScottL> we identify what they actually want to accomplish, determine what steps are needed, select applications that support those steps
<ScottL> otherwise we are sending garbage, because it's useless to the user
<ScottL> and that is where people tell us "oh, it doesn't feel like you support v/g, if feels like these packages were just slapped on"
<ScottL> and i've heard that from multiple sources
<astraljava> Yep. And it's not like we're guaranteeing a 100% hit. People use alternatives, no worries. But at least provide a full set of tools, that _can_ be used to accomplish a fully-working workflow.
<ailo> So, they think there's missing a lot of standard stuff, that they would use a lot?
<ScottL> ailo, the libre graphic people said so
<ScottL> not that succinctly, but yes
<ScottL> this is similar to audio work...
<ailo> In that case, we need someone who can find out all about that
<ScottL> whether you are recording an instrument or using sythensizer, the packages used are greatly different
<ScottL> ailo, right!  which is what i was trying to do when i contacted the libre graphics people
<ScottL> i wanted to get their insight for what packages they use and why, build a work flow based on it
<ScottL> that doesn't mean that everyone will want to do what they do, however
<ScottL> again, we are left defining who we want to support
<ScottL> we need an audience defined
<astraljava> We're gonna have to shipa 35GB USB drive if we want to provide for everybody, but yeah, Scott's got a point. :)
<astraljava> ship a*
<ailo> I still think it's on a really high level, all of that.
<ailo> I can see solutions, where you need to write software to guide the user
<ailo> And, you need to have some sort of a database of information, where you categorize software
<ailo> Software, and resources, like fonts
<ailo> But, it still begins with gathering information -> Documentation
<astraljava> ailo: Of course, we need to document the workflows, among other things.
<ScottL> sorry, was on phone
<ScottL> ailo, what you describe, software to guide the use, was something i had suggested for the -controls update
<ScottL> i have even considered writing it myself (if possible) as a separate application
<ScottL> it would add or remove applications by selecting predefined work flows
<ailo> I think it's smart to do everything separately, just like it usually is done in the Unix world
<ailo> And perhaps combine those in us-controls, making it seem like one application
<astraljava> ScottL: That's done already, by tasksel.
<ScottL> astraljava, very true
<astraljava> ScottL: Okay, maybe we just wanna add a front-end for that.
<ScottL> but this would allow people to do a base install and then allow them to customize later
<ScottL> but if we use true "tasks" as defined be debian, then we need to create those in the seeds i beleive
<astraljava> ScottL: Sure, you can do that on an installed system as well.
<astraljava> Right, that deep I haven't gotten into, yet.
<ScottL> if we do it in an array or such in an application it is purely modular and not dependent on other areas
<ailo> falktx has done one great thing on one of his apps. You can select audio software from a list, and you can see what they support (jack, alsa, vst, ladspa, etc)
<ScottL> astraljava, but this has an added facet that helps users
<ScottL> astraljava, they just select the radio button for "make a magazine" or "make a home movie"
<ScottL> and let it install the right applications
<ScottL> the idea would be to simply the user input to what they want to accomplish
<astraljava> ScottL: I understand what you're saying, so we'd just create a frontend to tasksel, to accomplish that feature.
<ScottL> astraljava, i was thinking python-apt to isntall the package and bypass the seeds/task definitions
<astraljava> Or at least that's the easiest way I see to do it.
<ScottL> doesn't make it the right or best way to do it
<astraljava> ScottL: Okay, that's possible too.
<ScottL> again, i didn't want to make it more complex than necessary by including tasksel, tasks, seeds, et al
<astraljava> But will require further tweaking of the packagesets. But it'd actually be a cool project to do. :)
<astraljava> LET'S HACK!!!
<ScottL> heheh
<astraljava> Oh _that's_ what you were asking paultag for!
<astraljava> Have you got a draft somewhere already?
 * astraljava wants to git clone
<ailo> There's one problem with all of this
<ailo> On commercial apps, like Logic, or Photoshop, you'll find a lot of templates
<ailo> But, of course, you won't find solutions that extend that particular application
<ailo> With Ubuntu, you can combine any apps you want
<ailo> So, it's sort of like making templates
<ailo> But, the template may, or may not be for multiple programs, instead of just one
<ailo> It can get pretty complex
<ailo> That's how I see the workflow approach anyway
<ailo> It's about templates
<ailo> Just like Office word templates, or any other type of templates
<astraljava> ailo: Agreed. There are problems into this line of thinking, but the way I (and seems Scott too) think it's the only way of providing for _some preset_ of people, instead of no-one particularly.
<ailo> The first thing that should be done, is to investigate what applications people use for different tasks
<ailo> Then write that down
<astraljava> Yep, and that's what I'd accomplish with the polls.
<astraljava> But we'd also have to contact groups that do what we want to support.
<ailo> I would rather talk to experts, who do a lot of graphic work, or video work, or audio work
<ailo> And, in all of those fields, there are subfields
<astraljava> Yeah, let's not get carried away.
<ailo> We'll have to
<astraljava> Like already mentioned, we can't cater for everyone. :)
<ailo> I believe
<ailo> Otherwise we don't know what we're doing at all
<ailo> For instance
<ailo> Let's say I have a recording studio
<ailo> I would use one software for recording
<ailo> And that may be all I need
<ailo> Especially if I record only from acoustic sources
<astraljava> I agree that we need to contact users directly, but really, how deep are we inclined to go? Gotta draw the line somewhere. Besides, that will clutter up the selection, as most of them do several features anyway.
<ailo> If we are to decide what software to use for any specific task, we need to find out exactly what each of those tasks are about
<ailo> And what software are best used for them
<astraljava> That's a neverending story. Who's deciding what's best? I mean, for instance, there aren't that many people involved with the application selection over at Xubuntu. A simple task; decide what's the default image viewer.
<ailo> I mean, this workflow approach, to me, is really about vision. Providing a whole solution for anything multimedia related. It's huge.
<astraljava> The arguing has lasted well over a month now.
<ScottL> sorry was away, astraljava , yes that was what i was discussing with paultag 
<astraljava> ailo: Exactly. It is f***ing huge. So we gotta draw lines somewhere.
<ailo> Either we do it, or we focus on lower level stuff
<ailo> That's how I see it
<astraljava> No middle-ground to tread?
<ailo> Of course, we could start small
<ailo> Just providing a few templates for the user
<astraljava> Yes, exactly!
<astraljava> We can always branch out and add new when we get this thing going.
<ailo> We still need to talk to experts in every field to get good info
<astraljava> Man, that's gonna take ages.
<ailo> I don't see any other way to do it right
<astraljava> ailo: It's not about that.
<astraljava> I agree with you there.
<astraljava> If we wanted the best possible product, that'd be the way to do it.
<astraljava> But we're a very, very limited bunch, on a tight schedule.
<ailo> When you say it like that, I think to myself, why bother at all, then?
<astraljava> Because the world isn't perfect, and it's still worth giving it your best shot?
<astraljava> :)
<ScottL> ailo, when you say "template" do you mean a particular file, say an ardour template which is a predefined format?
<ailo> So, you think we should ask non pro users to get info on what soft they use?
<ailo> The result: a hobby distro
<astraljava> In my opinion, that's what Scott was talking about when he addressed the "not getting swamped with tasks".
<ScottL> ailo, or do you mean "template" in the terms of a process?
<astraljava> ailo: No. I'm saying we should contact the pros, but not go into all the sub-fields.
<ailo> ScottL, In practice, what you get is startup commands that open a program and a template file
<astraljava> ailo: We can delve deeper once we get the basics done on an adequate level.
<ailo> astraljava, Do you have any pro experience at all in any multimedia field?
<ailo> I'm just saying we need to do it correctly, or not at all
<astraljava> ailo: Sadly, no. I'm just a humble programmer.
<astraljava> ailo: When _you_ say it like that, it makes me wanna raise my hands up in the air. :D
<astraljava> ailo: We're never gonna get everything done.
<ScottL> ailo, i know an audio engineer who was sacked (because of the economy i believe) who is mixing and mastering at home now with FL/OSS
<astraljava> ailo: Gotta start small, and aim bigger in the future.
<ScottL> i can talk to him as well
<ailo> We can't ask the general public, cause they will probably not be using the right software for what they want to achieve.
<ailo> They won't know when they're doing something wrong, etc
<ailo> And, even at a very basic level, you still already have a few subfields
<astraljava> ailo: I didn't say we only talk to people we meet on the streets.
<ScottL> but i think a generalized poll in ubuntu forums isn't far from that perhaps
<ScottL> let me clarify that however
<ScottL> i would be VERY interested in hearing their input about what they want to accomplish
<astraljava> ailo: I meant we can't possibly meet the every specification every sub-field of highly-polished professional level.
<ScottL> however, i would like to ask experts or pros about HOW they would accomplish those things
<ailo> ScottL, Yeah, that's different
<astraljava> Man, I'm not typing nor thinking very coherently anymore, I believe it's time to crash.
<ailo> Sleep well astraljava. We'll sort it out :)
<ailo> ScottL, Think of a menu, with submenus. All the items are workflow based.
<ailo> ScottL, First, 1.Audio, 2. Graphics 3. Video
<ScottL> astraljava, lol, goodnight my friend, get some rest
<astraljava> Sure. :) Like I said, I'm more familiar with code. I play the guitar, and want to record it in the future, but haven't got the experience yet.
<astraljava> Later folks!
<ScottL> ailo, okay
<ailo> astraljava, I only have experience in the audio field, so I know what type of workflows I am looking for
<ScottL> ailo, your experience...is it more midi/sythns or instruments?
<ailo> It's everything, really. Though, I've been using tools like Cubase more than midi trackers and such
<ailo> Nowadays I use puredata mostly, but I've done a lot of studio recording
<ailo> Just like holstein 
<ailo> I play, I record, I use the computer to make sounds
<ailo> I edit, mix
<ailo> Can't say I'm an expert in all I do, but I've been doing everything
<ailo> Mixing and mastering is a science of it's own
<ailo> You might be using the same software for mixing as you do for mastering
<ailo> But, you're doing two different things
<ailo> ScottL, Okay, so the menu again. From audio, you go where?
<ailo> Recording, Mixing, Mastering, Instruments...
<ailo> Or, Electronica, Metal..
<ailo> From recording, you might have a submenu with options referring to the style of music, I guess. 
<ailo> Just like the templates in a program like Logic, or Cubase
<ailo> But, instead of opening one program, you open several, if needed
<ailo> Don't know if you get what I mean now
<ScottL> ailo, where would this menu be?  is it the menu on the desktop that we currently have?
<ScottL> is this for installing applications?
<ailo> No, to use them for specific tasks
<ailo> Audio -> Recording -> pop/rock
<ailo> That could open qtractor, or Ardour
<ailo> Or, jackd, then qtractor, for instance
<ailo> Audio -> Recording -> Hip Hop
<ailo> Opens qtractor, and Hydrogen, already loaded with sounds for Hip Hop
<ailo> The best solution I think is to have an application that lets' you look for your workflow
<ailo> Either you search for tags, or use this tree approach
<ailo> I have no idea how to categorize graphic or video tasks, but for audio, I think something like that would work
<ailo> Audio -> Recording -> pop/rock could open a whole range of programs, like: jackd, qtractor, rackarakk, Hydrogen, and some piano
<ailo> qtractor would already have channels with names for "drums(hydrogen)", "guitar"(rakkarack) etc
<ailo> And they would all be connected accordingly
<ailo> You could go further: Audio -> Recording -> pop/rock -> (further defined)
<ailo> Or, you could stop at: Audio -> Recording
<ailo> Recording, however, is a huge field
<ailo> And no program fits into that workflow description
<ailo> Audio -> Editing, would open Audacity most probably
<ailo> Audio -> Mastering... a custom Ardour session with plugins already loaded
<ailo> ScottL, Do you see it?
<ScottL> sorry,was with family
<ailo> Mastering is not my field of expertise, but that's something that could be done with Audacity with great success
<ScottL> i like the idea of asking users to identify what they are doing, rather than just a menu of applications
<ailo> For novice users, that is a good way to learn
<ScottL> ailo, perhaps i'm elitist, but if we are considering moving away from "hobby distro" then i not suggest audacity for most activities
<ScottL> maybe editing a podcast
<ailo> For advanced users, they will want to customize everything
<ScottL> but this is dithering, the use and direction remains the same
<ailo> Audacity is a very powerful tool
<ailo> Just have to know how to use it
<ailo> That's another problem with this approach
<ailo> Not everyone know what they are supposed to do, even when they know what they want to achieve, and even know what programs to use
<ailo> That's a gap, we can't fill
<ailo> Audacity is a file editing tool. You can record with it, but that's not what it's for
<ailo> It's perfect for editing single files, or mastering, or making electroacoustic music (which is mostly about editing audio files usually)
<ailo> I would say Audacity is an elitist tool
<ailo> Ardour is mostly for audio recording
<ailo> It's best used for recording and mixing
<ailo> But, can also be used for mastering
<ailo> Musicians prefer that type of software
<ailo> People who make music using drummachines and synths might prefer trackers, like Hydrogen
<ailo> Hydrogen is also a drum machine
<ailo> ScottL, It's getting late for me as well. 
<ailo> ScottL, In practice, when you choose a workflow, you open programs that are loaded with templates. That's how I see it
<ailo> The organization of the workflow needs to be determined by people who are experts in different fields.
<ScottL> i agree with you about audacity, it is a powerful tool
<ailo> ScottL, I'm forgetting session handling, like ladish, for audio
<ailo> That would seem to be the smartest tool to use in this case, for audio
<ScottL> depends on the case, i would suggest
<ScottL> many times users will be using plugins, and i think ardour would be better
<ailo> For workflows, I mean
<ScottL> oh, yeah worfk lows
<ailo> I still haven't tried ladish
<ailo> I just assume it is the right way to go for creating templates for audio
<ailo> And it makes it so much easier for the user to create their own templates
<ailo> For graphics and video, I don't know
<ailo> Having standard workflows is great.
<ailo> It would be even greater if you could save your own templates
<ailo> Which you can do with ladish
<ailo> If you can't save your templates, the workflows may still be useful, but they will probably mostly be used to get introduced to Linux programs
<ailo> See you later ScottL. Time to doze off
<ScottL> ailo, bye, sorry i've been unresponsive a bit, family stuff
<ScottL> i am very intrigued by the menu based on work flow concept
<ScottL> i wonder if this is applicable for the target audience
<ScottL> also, i agree that the ability to create and edit templates would be imperative
#ubuntustudio-devel 2012-07-30
<len-dt> micahg, good morning, just an update on packages that require release or other work.
<micahg> len-dt: are you giving me a list or do you want to know if I've uploaded any :)
<len-dt> The seeds/metas need to be looked at, ubuntustudio-default-settings
<len-dt> list
<len-dt> ubuntustudio-look
<len-dt> and I have tested ubuntustudio-default-settings.precice... what next?
<len-dt> micahg, I can check if you have uploaded any as you change them to released.
<micahg> len-dt: the bugs that are being SRUd need the appropriate paperwork, then I can upload
<len-dt> micahg, I have not been able to find where xchat gets it's server list from.
<len-dt> I am not sure what to do with that.
<len-dt> For adding ubuntustudio to firefox, there is a place to do that.
<micahg> yeah, not sure about xchat, will have to dig a little
<len-dt> I am looking at the server list in the source code...
<len-dt> micahg, The ubuntu version of the xchat source code patches things to put debian and freenode at the top and connect to the #ubuntu forum by default.
<len-dt> maintaining a ubuntustudio version of xchat sounds like a lot more work than a /etc/skel/ file.
<len-dt> It is possible to start xchat to connect to a specific forum (a *.desktop file could be created) but then the users config would not work.
<micahg> len-dt: perhaps an alternative might be useful, it depends on how that patch works (which I haven't looked at yet)
<micahg> OTOH, maybe we can add a hook in the main xchat package for derivatives to override the default entry
<len-dt> micahg, Ok, beyond my skills though.
<len-dt> I could probably change the patch for a US version, but not add a hook.
<len-dt> I agree that an alt to allow each flavour to add their channel would make sense though.
<scott-work> ailo: ping
<micahg> len-dt: I'd rather have something like /etc/xchat.d/ubuntustudio
<micahg> but that probably needs some packaging work
<scott-work> ooh, ooh, is this about making #ubuntustudio a default channel in xchat?
<micahg> yeah
<scott-work> yay!
<len-dt> scott-work, don't get too excited yet.
<scott-work> hehe, at least it is progressing though :)
<scott-work> len-dt: you have a minute to talk about the menu stuff?  ailo, can catch up when he is online
<len-dt> ok
<len-dt> there seems to be a feeling that menus are not the place to define workflows.
<len-dt> That items should be in a submenu that matches the definition of the app
<len-dt> For example, some one making a music cd would expect to make the music in audio, but look for a program to make the case cover in graphics.
<len-dt> scott-work, ^^
<scott-work> let's say i'm a video guy, new to linux, but i understand the work flow of making a video...trying to move away from mac or windows
<scott-work> in a practical sense, i know nothing about linux audio. don't know the applications names and don't know what they do. hell, i don't even know jack about jack :P
<scott-work> i try using ubuntu studio to edit video
<scott-work> i see "openshot" there are start importing, cutting, moving video around but i need to add some sound effects and voice overs but need to edit the audio
<scott-work> s/are/and
<scott-work> if audacity is *not* in the video menu, i would most likely go to the 'audio' menu and see all the applications
<scott-work> i don't know what audacity is, not jack, nor ardour...it's all confusing to me
<scott-work> if audacity *is* in the video menu, i have an immediate and visual clue, especially with the menu tool tip, that ubuntu studio has been designed for me to use audacity to edit the audio for my video
<scott-work> ..
<scott-work> i'll mention two more things about the menu
<len-dt> That is what a) docs are for b) a workflow application.
<scott-work> len-dt: we dont' have a work flow application yet
<scott-work> and even if we did, we have to confirm that it actually works and helps users
<len-dt> We will keep getting bug reports to answer 
<scott-work> before making a decision to remove things from the menu
<scott-work> len-dt: i am only aware of a single bug so far, has there been others?
<scott-work> bug# 984970
<scott-work> bug #984970
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 984970 in ubuntustudio-default-settings (Ubuntu) "Audacity and Inkscape are in the video production menu" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/984970
<len-dt> A fair amount of talk on IRC and the list.
<scott-work> and that one was by ttoine
<scott-work> len-dt:  has this honestly confused people? (other than *head scratch* "hey, why is that there?")
<len-dt> I won't change it. I can't really say as to confusion. I am only relaying what I have heard.
<len-dt> scott-work, moving on, what other menu related things did you have
<scott-work> len-dt: i'm sorry if i am being aggressive to you, i did not intend to be so, especially to you
<scott-work> len-dt: you are quite a valuable people to this project and represent a very fair and conservative approach to it as well
<scott-work> len-dt: i certainly would not want to alienate you in any way
<len-dt> scott-work, not a problem. I am still just learning.
<scott-work> s/people/person
<scott-work> to be honest, i can't remember both things i was going to add, but i do remember one
<scott-work> ah, maybe i do
<scott-work> 1. i am confused and surprised by the strident opposition to this - i can only speculate that it is because it doesn't follow convention and that offends some (i understand because there are other areas where i am the same way)
<scott-work> 2. i also think that breaking with convention or tradition can be a good thing (i certainly believe it is a helpful thing to our users) that can help innovation
<scott-work> oh, and a #3
<scott-work> 3. audacity should still be in the 'audio' menu and the only ones to see it also in the 'video' menu would be those who use the 'video' menu, therefore i'm not sure this is "hurting" anything
<scott-work> ..
<len-dt> OK
<scott-work> i would really like to see a method for creating, editing, and setting a "mode"
<scott-work> adjust the menus, the screen layout, the number of monitors, even docks with applications
<len-dt> Mode or workflow?
<scott-work> mode based on work flows
<scott-work> view the "mode" as a system setting
<ailo> scott-work: I have no objection against breaking convention. But I think I've made my point already. No one is expecting an audio application in a video menu, no matter what. Even with documentation on the US website saying this is how we do our menus, most people would not have read it. 
<len-dt> I have been using mode to mean something different.
<scott-work> s/as a system setting/as system settings
<ailo> scott-work: I know your aim is for it to be intuitive, but I feel it is the opposite
<len-dt> That is more of a system setting than I had envisioned.
<scott-work> ailo: but what is the detraction if it _is_ there?  (other than it just shouldn't be there and people will not expect it)
<ailo> scott-work: If we put all applications that could suit a certaing workflow in other menus, it will be flooded with double, or triple entries
<len-dt> scott-work, I am not sure it is possible to change panel settings on the fly like that with any of the existing panels.
<ailo> scott-work: It not economic, and it's confusing
<ailo> scott-work: If you'd like to start designing a workflow application instead, never mind the coding, I think what you'd start with is a tag based application database
<ailo> scott-work: Each application could suit many workflows, and could have many tags
<ailo> scott-work: This is partly what the menu is aiming to do now, except it's only been begun
<scott-work> ailo: i think the "double, or triple entries" argument may be a straw man (i'm trying to say this nicely but i don't know how to say it without it sounding ugly and i apologize for that)
<ailo> scott-work: I can't find one single argument for having double entries in the menu, tbh
<ailo> Since no one is aware of the workflow design, except the designer himself
<scott-work> what i meant, is that i do not think there will be too many double entries
<ailo> scott-work: It would make much more sense to create documentation where you list suitable applications for each workflow. 
<scott-work> ailo: i would presume that you do not think having audacity in the video menu as a visual, immediate cue for those unfamiliar with linux applications is not a good argument?
<scott-work> (for someone who know video editing work flow already but unfimiliar wiht linux)
<ailo> scott-work: I think a new user would immediately assume Audacity is a video application, and after starting it, wonder where the video is
<ailo> Since again, the new user has no idea about the workflow design
<ailo> And even if he did, he'd not know which is a video application and an audio application
<ailo> == confusing
<ailo> scott-work: Why not just create a workflow starter? It wouldn't be too much work, even for an average coder. Just a window with starters
<ailo> scott-work: I could help with that before 13.04
<ailo> I mean, a workflow app, with starters
<ailo> Or the panel..
<len-dt> ailo, the panel doesn't really lend itself to that use as is.
<ailo> A workflow application with starters would have the main categories for the worflows, and subcategories for whatever you want: recording, editing, processing, etc
<ailo> A much more throrough and complete categorization. Would be much more clearer for the user
<ailo> len-dt: Would you know how to create a menu in the panel, like the main menu?
<ailo> Actually, it would need to work just like the main menu, except only have multimedia apps, and in much more thorough categories. 
<len-dt> Not like the main menu
<ailo> I haven't looked at how that could be done in python, which I prefer myself (since I don't really do C a lot).
<ailo> But shouldn't be too hard to find out
<ailo> The program mathces against a list of multimedia apps and sees if those are installed. If yes, then it loads them to the menu
<len-dt> I don't know if you remember, but I originally had something like this: http://www.ovenwerks.net/UStudiodocs/workflow.html
<len-dt> It is effectively it's own panel.
<len-dt> As you can see at the bottom it is easy enough to make it work as a menu.
<len-dt> The menu is not hard coded BTW, it is created fresh at each startup.
<len-dt> It could read the config files fresh each time selected though... just take longer.
<ailo> len-dt: How much longer?
<len-dt> But then, the main menu takes longer to display if you change the menu file.
<len-dt> I don't know as I haven't tried it.
<len-dt> It uses desktop files. The config file is a workflow(s) with a list of desktop files inside.
<len-dt> An application can be added without a desktop file as well.
<len-dt> The application can be purposely added without a desktop file for the purpose of changing the icon, tooltip or command line.
<ailo> len-dt: scott-work: Here's an example of a possible design for a menu. Main categories are workflows. Sub categories are tasks. http://paste.ubuntu.com/1119803/
<ailo> If we were to use workflow design on the main menu, we need to include the task category. If we do that, then it would make sense
<ailo> So, for the workflow category "audio" we'd have different tasks, such as "Recording/Mixing" and "Editing"
<ailo> "Mastering", "midi-tools", "plugin-hosts", "instruments", etc..
<ailo> Not really tasks, but task based
<ailo> len-dt: scott-work: Coming back to the main menu, I'd be curious to see if this would work. But, again, first step would be documentation. What tasks are there for these different workflows?
<ailo> And applications that don't fit a task, or are hard to categorize, just leave them in the main workflow menu
<ailo> scott-work: With a subcategory inside video, that said audio-editing, I could see the point in putting Audacity there
<len-dt> ailo, you mean do this in the mani menu?
<ailo> len-dt: With clear subcategories, maybe it would work?
<len-dt> Or do you mean have a second workflow menu?
<ailo> len-dt: If not in the main menu, than definately as a workflow menu
<len-dt> I will see what I can do.... I know that ubuntu's old gnome menu had three menus, main, places and system
<scott-work> sorry, was caught up at work, reading backscroll now
<scott-work> i believe the menu is not only created fresh at each startup but also when an application in installed or the text file edited manually
<ailo> scott-work: He was explaining how the menu worked on the panel that he maid, if I understood correctly
<ailo> made*
<scott-work> oh, sorry
<len-dt> scott-work, yes. I have edited things a lot.
<scott-work> ailo: are you suggesting something like a "workflow wizard"?
<len-dt> The applications menu takes longer to load after a file change. So it must first check to see if the file has a new write time.
<scott-work> i don't think that is a substantial time though, is it?
<scott-work> ..
<ailo> scott-work: I haven't suggested it now. 1. I say not to the current form of the menu. 2. I talked about creating an application starter application 3. We talked about using the panel for that. 4. We talked about creating a menu in the panel for that 5. I realized, with the addition of clear taks based subcategories in the menu, it might be clear enough when used in the main menu
<ailo> scott-work: The key IMO is task based sub-categorization. 
<scott-work> maybe we should ask ourselves other questions...
<ailo> ?
<scott-work> i.e. how can we most effectively engage the user with work flows?
<scott-work> and i suppose what the purpose of us "engaging the user" with them
<scott-work> and who exactly are we engaging?
<ailo> scott-work: Do you see the point in having task based sub categories for workflows?
<ailo> Does anyone?
<ailo> I'm going to get something to eat. bbl
<len-dt> I am out for a bit too. Will look at the possibility of a second menu in a panel.
<ailo> scott-work: It's been pretty clear for me from the start. Handling workflows in an abstraction from the interface which is the current desktop tool base. i.e. it's a layer above the tools that exist. How to create a guide? 1. Documentation 2. Creating an application that dynamically leads the user to a specified task in a workflow
<ailo> schould be, .."is an abstraction of/from the interface". In any case, a layer above the tools
<scott-work> sorry, was pulled away by work again...reading
<scott-work> sorry, pulled away again, and now meeting time, be back in hour, but will think about your comments ailo "abstraction above tools"
<ailo> scott-work: I think the key here is (and I did realize this some months earlier too, just haven't been thinking about it), is task based subcategories for the main workflow categories.
<ailo> scott-work: Cause, when you are looking to do a task, you look for applications that match the task you want to perform
<ailo> scott-work: "Audio", "Video", etc, aren't telling you much. But task based categoried can be quite precise
<ailo> IMO, "audio", "video" etc, aren't workflows at all, until there is a follow up
<ailo> as in audio/recording, audio/editing, video/recording, video/editing
<ailo> It's not perfectly easy to create task based categories, I think. To create a complete and practical list for each workflow main category qould require some thought
<ailo> I might have less problems doing it for "Audio", but "Video" would be a little harder, without research
<len-dt> ailo, what I am hearing is we need to document workflows before we can set up the tools.
<ailo> len-dt: That has always been my opinion. And I would gladly help with that, but not at the moment, as we have more basic tasks to complete first
<ailo> Also, when it comes to documentation
<len-dt> ailo, I think so.
<len-dt> I know I can't do it as I don't have enough experience even in audio, my strongest case.
<ailo> scott-work might argue that the workflows should be designed with a novice user in mind, but IMO, there is no difference.
<ailo> Just the choice of applications, perhaps
<len-dt> ailo, novice in mind, but designed by someone who has learned already from their own novice mistakes.
<ailo> A novice video person would probably use OpenShot, to make youtube videos, while a pro would use something like kdenlive
<ailo> But the task is still the same
<ailo> len-dt: I do agree that it is important to have experience in pro/semi pro production. And the more fields, the better
<ailo> Someone who only does one type of art, and one type of style, and maybe only one application has a small window to the world of workflows
<len-dt> Ok ailo just looking at some xfce4-panel docs. It looks like there is a way to have a second (different) menu.
<len-dt>  I will try making one :-)
<ailo> cool
<len-dt> ailo, I would consider it the best thing if the first item on a workflow menu was a help button pointing to a document that explains the concept of workflows
<len-dt> ailo, each submenu should have it's own help button explaining the workflow(s) that submenu was meant to handle.
<len-dt> ailo, this will require making *.desktop files and maybe directory files as well.
<ailo> len-dt: Good idea. I'm just looking at the docs about workflows that already exist
<ailo> There is a bit of work done, by a lot of people in fact
<ailo> But it's loose and unstructured
<len-dt> ailo, as a mock up I will use desktop files we already have. I will not fill all the categories, perhpas just video or graphics because there are less app to choose from...
<ailo> len-dt: If you look at the links for "audio", "video", etc, you'll find different workflow cases here https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/Workflows
<len-dt> yes I have seen those. I can get the apps from there..
<ailo> len-dt: I see those as sketches, but since they are based on experience, it makes them good for reference.
<len-dt> Ok, My first one will be very basic anyway. Just a test of concept.
<ailo> len-dt: I'm sketching out something on what I was talking about in the wiki now. Workflow based menu
<len-dt> Ok.
<scott-work> damn webchat keeps hanging up and dropping me
<scott-work> ailo: i agree with your categorization comment
<scott-work> ailo: i'm not sure i would argue that work flows should be derived with a new user in mind, i think the result would be the same for any user
<scott-work> but i would argue about how you document it or engage the user would vary on the user's experience
<scott-work> but we should keep in mind, we can always document infinite number of work flows, but the number we "support" by shipping applications should be limited, perhaps as few as one work flow per task
<len-dt> scott-work, I think we need to document the ones we ship.
<len-dt> I don't know that documenting other workflows will help
<len-dt> Saying there are other way to do the same job is ok. Suggesting other apps to replace an app in our current toolchain may be ok too.
<len-dt> scott-work, I don't know if you caught it or not, but I have figured out how to add a workflow menu to one of our tool bars (top or bottom)
<len-dt> scott-work, ailo, currently mine resides in my bottom/side pannel
<scott-work> len-dt: oooh, i didn't see that, do you have a link? is this like your previous work with the panels?
<len-dt> No this is like a second applications menu.
<scott-work> len-dt: by "document the ones we ship" do you mean the information in wiki.ubuntu.com or do you mean help.ubuntu.com / ubuntustudio.org?
<scott-work> i ask because i view those two repositories of information as having two disticntly different purposes
<len-dt> I would like to ship a document that can be accessed at the top of each workflow menu on the ISO
<scott-work> and also i don't mind having a "community" supported section of work flows that are "unsupported" (i.e. not shipped) that can help provide information
<scott-work> len-dt: good idea
<scott-work> i like that quite a bit actually
<scott-work> if we did ship a "work flow application", it would be nice if a particular key combintation would launch it...perhaps ala the HUD or dash with vanilla ubuntu
<len-dt> I am running out of time today, but I will do a short web page with some pictures later.
<len-dt> workflow application is down the road yet.
<scott-work> after reading hte mailing list a bit: i quit using firefox some months ago, i now use chrome/chromium
<len-dt> Should we make it default?
<micahg> I wouldn't suggest that until it's properly cared for (unless you all are volunteering for that)
<len-dt> micahg, That bad ? ok scrap that.
<ailo> scott-work: len-dt: the audio menu is in fact quite close to what I sugges, when it comes to workflow categorization, and is the best defined.
<ailo> We should just put more energy on defining good subcategories for all the workflows
<len-dt> ailo, you realize some sub menus would have only one app?
<len-dt> Can we put text in separators?
<len-dt> Gotta go... Bye
<scott-work> len-dt: i was wondering that also about separators, i'm not sure actually....no, wait, yes we can, i know that, we have it in the main menu (which i gratuitously stole from xubuntu)
<scott-work> ailo: to be clear: are you suggesting that the 'video' menu actually show no applications in it, but rather have sub-menu(s) based on work flows?
<scott-work> (this would be similar to what the 'audio' menu is doing with the sub-menus, but rather than base on sub-types of audio applications or genres, we would base the video sub-menus on pure work flows?)
<ailo> scott-work: I think to justify having an application in many "main" categories, you need to specify a clear sub-category for the application starter, so that it is clear what it is used for
<ailo> scott-work: So, yes
<ailo> len-dt: Depends on how many submenus are created, and how many applications are installed
<ailo> len-dt: scott-work: the amount of submenus needs to be designed also from a practical point of view, cause we would easily put 3-4 categories in the audio menu, where perhaps half of the applications would be in all of them
<ailo> s/would/could
<scott-work> granted there does not need to be unity between the audio and other categories, i.e. we don't have to follow the exact rules between them
<ailo> scott-work: len-dt: So, this is nothing new. It's the same thing as we have now, pretty much. I added something, and probably missed something. https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/WorkflowMenu
<ailo> I would prefer to fill out all of those categories, discuss problems, make changes, and then implement them to the menu
<ailo> scott-work: Applications that do not fall under a specific sub-category, we just put in the main category, as before.
<ailo> scott-work: len-dt: I don't have the time to continue working on that. I would estimate a couple of days to get a good first version
<ailo> For all the workflows, that is
<ailo> And add all possible applications, even those that aren't available in the repo
<ailo> bb tomorrow. Time to sleep here
<ailo> scott-work: Ah yeah. I was thinking about having a "difficulty level". Something you could have in a workflow application, but in a menu? If used in a menu, I would suggest adding (basic) to some applications, but it's pretty hard to find simple apps for much of the workflows, probably
<ailo> I mean, some applications will still require you to learn 10-100 different things
<ailo> Even if you only use them for very simple things
<ailo> Openshot, while not useless, is basic
<ailo> I don't know if any of the DAW's are
#ubuntustudio-devel 2012-07-31
<len-dt> ailo, when you wake up... just one point. I purposely tried to keep applications that would be started often (like qjackctl) in the highest level of submenu possible.
<len-dt> It would have made sense to put "audio utilities" in a sub menu etc.
<len-dt> The mixers had to go just because there are so many no one person will use.
<len-dt> The effects and sound modules I would expect a lot of people to load as part of their ardour or qtractor set up.
<len-dt> I tried to leave the apps likely to be started from the menu in the main audio menu.
<len-dt> This doesn't mean I am right though :-) It just occurred to me that I had not shared my reasoning behind which apps I submenued.
<len-dt> ailo, question two... am I looking at your version of the main menu or a workflow menu?
<len-dt> If it was a workflow menu, there is more room to work with... things could move up a level.
<len-dt> ailo, three... I will experiment as if it was the workflow menu, so don't take that as a final that is where I would put it. I just don't want to muck with my main menu :)
<len-dt> besides it gets everything else out of the way and the code is the same.
<ailo> len-dt: I think you did a good job on the menu, as it is now. And yes, if we are to make it workflow based, there is room for expansion. Feel free to make your own edits in the wiki page
<ailo> I added mastering to audio https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/WorkflowMenu
<ailo> len-dt: I think it's enough to put the subcategories in the wiki first, and then after deciding what is the proper format, do changes to the menu
<len-dt> ailo, I want to mock up the menu for two reasons 1)right now I don't think I will like it and will want a normal menu too.
<len-dt> also, I think having a sample to show how it looks may change how it gets done.
<len-dt> sometimes ideas happen by looking at what something is for something better.
<len-dt> I personally think there should be a main menu and a workflow menu.
<len-dt> The main menu already has maintaining issues every time an app changes the name of their desktop file. (4 this cycle)
<len-dt> Also, where does the app end up that the user installs?
<ailo> len-dt: I see your point. The maintenance burden makes it problematic
<len-dt> I would suggest a workflow menu that just deals with apps we ship.
<ailo> len-dt: Perhaps a workflow menu could be made smarter when it comes to that. The package names don't change as much
<ailo> len-dt: I don't like that either. If we only support a small percentage of apps, we might as well not have a workflow menu at all IMO
<ailo> If it's not universal, it's not Ubuntu
<len-dt> Ok, point taken
<ailo> len-dt: Per release maintenance is of course unavoidable
<ailo> len-dt: If we use a list of packages as base for the menu, the list would just need to be revised for each release.
<len-dt> Yes, trying to  menu for everything a user may install requires installing it all to find out desktop names.
<ailo> len-dt: Here's a script that will read a file with packages and see if they are installed or not http://paste.ubuntu.com/1121439/
<ailo> Of course, each package is a bit different :P
<ailo> So, each package may have a unique starter command
<ailo> So, I don't know which is best after all..
<len-dt> We don't need to do that. if the desktop file is present it will show if not it won't.
<len-dt> so long as I know what the name of the desktop file is I can put it in.
<len-dt> for example, we don't ship arpage, but if you decide to add it, it will show up in midi utilities because I already have it there.
<ailo> len-dt: Then there's no going around the fact that we need to go through every concievable multimedia app, and decide if and where to put them in the menu
<len-dt> I added it there because I happen to have it installed on my machine and so know what the name of the desktop file is.
<len-dt> Yes.
<len-dt> Is there a file list we can look at without installing the app?
<len-dt> Is it easy to find the branch for all the apps ubuntu repos?
<len-dt> And we should be careful about saying "mutimedia" app. We want to just worry about audio production and video production... we also though, need to look at all the graphics and publishing stuff.
 * len-dt still sees photography as a sub of graphics
<ailo> My understanding of multimedia incorporates all the medias, including graphics and publishing
<len-dt> Why does Chromium act differently from every other application?
<ailo> len-dt: Don't know about seeing installed files from console, except when installed: dpkg --listfiles | grep desktop
<ailo> len-dt: I can install everything at a later point, if necessary
<len-dt> I have my desktop set for focus follows mouse. Normally I can drop a terminal on top of another app and edit things in the terminal and just move my mouse on the under app to do things like scroll it. The terminal stays on top
<len-dt> with chromium. as soon as my mouse gets over chomium it raises
<ailo> len-dt: Been a bit slow developing the testing scripts. I'm doing a all-in-one approach, divided into sub scripts, where the script first installs all prerequisites, and the performs tests. So far, I have a jack test only. Counting xruns at different frame sizes
<len-dt> YuCK!
 * len-dt says the yuck is for chorium
<ailo> That works by default for me
<ailo> I mean, scrolling the window *not* in focus
<len-dt> Yes for me too... every app but chorium.
<ailo> Something I get annoyed with not having when on other OS's
<len-dt> chromium
<ailo> len-dt: I don't have a setting for focus follows mouse
<len-dt> focus follows mouse used to be the Linux standard
<len-dt> Now I have to go and set it on most new Linux ditros.
<ailo> len-dt: So, why do you need it, if you still can scroll windows not in focus?
<ailo> Typing doesn't work that way though
<len-dt> Actually The window has to be in focus, just not on top.
<ailo> len-dt: Without any changes, you can scroll the windows not in focus. But, you can't type in them. That's the default behaviour
<len-dt> I'll check. I'll turn focus follow mouse off.
<ailo> Or are things different on XFCE? I don't seem to remember there being a difference (on Gnome3 by default)
<len-dt> There are only two settings, click to focus (stock) and focus follows mouse
<len-dt> in both cases as soon as I do anything with the mouse in the chromium area, it raises above my terminal, even though I have the terminal set "stay on top"
<ailo> Doesn't happen on Gnome3
<len-dt> firefox is fine, and works as expected.
<len-dt> I will have to try it on my Yf's vanilla box
<ailo> len-dt: It doesn't happen when using gnome-terminal, but it does happen with xterm
<ailo> So, it's not just chromium. It's also the terminal
<ailo> len-dt: You can check by testing with nautilus. Works there too
<ailo> len-dt: The difference in XFCE, compared to Gnome is that when you scroll a window not in focus, it becomes focused. This doesn't happen in gnome.
<ailo> Even without focus on follow mouse
<ailo> Or, more accurately, without focus follows mouse
<ailo> The more apps I use in XFCE, I just feel like I want the gnome version instead. Soon enough, I've replaced everything except the panel
<len-dt> If a window is "always on top" it should not matter.
<len-dt> This is a bug. trying to find out where the bug is...
<len-dt> Tried in vanilla, there is no focus follows mouse setting, but chromium doesn't grab focus when scrolling.
<len-dt> I will have to play with it.
<len-dt> nautilus is fine.
<len-dt> my terminal will stay on top with "always on top" or not if I am typing in bottom window.
<len-dt> Chromium if I move the mouse off the terminal raises already with no clicks or scrolling.
<len-dt> And it covers the terminal even with the terminal being always on top.
<len-dt> ailo, speaking of which there has been no ISO build since Jul 29, but no email telling why. Is there a build report URL?
<len-dt> It may be seed changes that have not yet made it to meta packages.
<len-dt> The changes have to be revued according to micahg. I have done the creation of a photo meta and a publishing meta. The photography was not done last cycle due to time limits.
<ailo> len-dt: When you say vanilla, do you mean Unity?
<len-dt> Yes.
<ailo> len-dt: As said, on Gnome, windows don't change focus when using scroll
<ailo> I'd assume most of Unity's behaviour is imported from Gnome3
<len-dt> Ya, I have to test in quantal in xfce4.10 before I file a bug report. A lot of things seem to be fixed there.
<len-dt> I don't think there will be a fix in xfce 4.8 at this point.
<len-dt> I think I may replace my default browser...
<ailo> I like supporting Firefox. Some day, I'll set up my own weave sync server, when I get around to it
<ailo> Trying to use google services a bit less, as it feels weird relying on them too much
<ailo> They say Opera users are the smartest by average, but I've never really got into it
<micahg> len-dt: sorry. let me get that meta uploaded
 * micahg guesses it'll have to be cleaned later
<len-dt> No problem. I just wanted to make sure there wasn't another problem
<len-dt> The browser that shows up as "web" on my menu, flashes at me every time I enter the window. Something else to test in 12.10
<len-dt> ailo, the reason I don't have firefox set up as default right now... is to keep other people in the house from using it  :P
<len-dt> I have a set of sites I keep in tabs all the time. I guess I should set up a bookmark for this set of sites.
<micahg> len-dt: separate user accounts for separate people?
<len-dt> Quite often I am in the middle of things and walk away, I come back to find someone watching utube on the machine.
<len-dt> There are separate accounts though.
<len-dt> I could lock my session, but that breeds distrust
<len-dt> Studio is not set up to allow more than one login at a time right now (correctly IMO)
<len-dt> Anyway, it is always good to find a bug.
<len-dt> it will be better if I find it is fixed already
<micahg> len-dt: there are also separate firefox profiles (firefox -P)
<ailo> len-dt: On nice feature in firefox bookmarks is that you can open an entire folder in tabs
<ailo> One*
<len-dt> Ya, I just haven't done it yet.
<ailo> Ever since they introduced sync, I started using bookmarks a bit seriously too
<ailo> Becoming a library more or less
<len-dt> I have a feature request for mudita24... allow linking any two channels in the mixer.
<len-dt> I have some feature requests for pavucontrol (or maybe pulse itself) too.
<len-dt> On the config tab, each device should have a button/switch that allows/prevents pulse from changing setting on the device.
<len-dt> Default would be allows as it is now.  Those of us with more configurable devices like ice1712s (or even just want to set things in one known place for jack use) can turn this off.
<len-dt> Pulse would only do software volume control for that device.
<len-dt> The other feature I would like to see in pulse/pavucontrol is that when pulse detects jackdbus asking for a device, pulse automatically changes the output from any apps connected to that device to jack bridge. In effect jack bridge would become that device as far as pulse is concerned.
<len-dt> the jack bridge could even remained labelled as that device for all pulse related things.
<ailo> len-dt: As far as the bridge is concerned, I think you could try messing it with yourself. Do: apt-get source pulseaudio-module-jack, and see what it does
<ailo> Also, look at pulseaudio configuration, perhaps
<ailo> len-dt: For other thing, maybe report wishlist bugs at the appropriate place, upstream if necessacry
<len-dt> I am writing an email right now. I realize I could maybe configure thing for me. But I think these are some things that may have a wiser appeal
<len-dt> s/wiser/wider
<ailo> len-dt: Just that maybe not much will happen if you just adress the US mail list
<len-dt> ailo, do you have any ideas for Mish? other channel
<len-dt> the US list may give me a "hey thats a dumb idea"
<ailo> David Henningson is the man behind pulseaudio-jack-module, but it may be easier to do the changes yourself, than ask him to do it
<ailo> len-dt: Maybe talk to the person who develops mudita24 about features?
<len-dt> David is who I am writing too. I have less hope for an ear for mudita :-)
<ailo> hmm, I think I prefer the opera mail client over both evolution and firebird
<ailo> Fast, simple and has the best function for marking mail read. Mark thread read, and move to next undread
<micahg> hrm, I seem to be having issues getting the new seeds to produce files :(, will have to look into this more later
<len-dt> micahg, please let me know if my way of doing it cause it.
<len-dt> ailo-opera, I don't think we'll be adding opera to studi ;-)
<ailo-opera> len-dt: No. That would be kind of difficult
<ailo-opera> I'm starting to like it a bit though. 
<len-dt> I'm up and down about it.. as the features change
<len-dt> ailo, ailo-opera did you expect the workflow menu to be in the order you have them?
<len-dt> or is there an order you would prefer?
<scott-work> len-dt: are you working on a demo pictures?
<scott-work> picture
<len-dt> Ya.
<ailo-opera> len-dt: That's just a sketch. I'd like for us to first fill out possible submenus, then decide which to keep, and in which order
<len-dt> scott-work, see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/WorkflowMenu
<ailo-opera> So far, there are only submenus for audio. We need to add for the other workflows as well
<len-dt> Ok, I will leave them alpha
<Mish> Video Icon
<Mish> http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/402/videoproductionfilmstri.png/
<Mish> http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/696/videoproductionfilmstri.png/
<Mish> http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/839/videoproductionfilmstri.png/
<ailo-opera> The applications under the categories are just examples too. To do the submenus thoroughly, we need to go through all possible workflows and link them with any application that might fit that possible workflow to get a good picture of where to put all the different applications, as well as getting a picture of which workflows are needed, and which are not.
<ailo-opera> Mish: Looks nice
<ailo-opera> So, as far as submenus go, I don't think there's any shortcut around it
<ailo-opera> Need to go through every application and possible workflow
<ailo-opera> The submenus for audio aren't clear workflow tasks. It would be impossible to do. Can't have qjackctl in every menu, etc
<ailo-opera> So, it's still more towards application definition
<ailo-opera> Especially what utilities are concerned, like mixers
<Mish> Sorry got disconnected... how is the icon?
<ailo-opera> len-dt: I don't think it's possible to create a menu based entirely on workflows. In fact, it would seem only a few submenus become actual workflow based. 
<ailo-opera> len-dt: But, we can always try to go that direction as far as we can, to see how it goes
<scott-work> ailo-opera: i agree that only a smaller subset of menus can be work flow based
<len-dt> Mish the icon looks great
<len-dt> scott-work, ailo-opera in the mock-up only apps we ship or I have installed since will show up
<len-dt> Mish, I like the rounded style and the fadeout as well. It makes it unique
<Mish> great. I'll send you the SVG then
<len-dt> Mish, ok
<len-dt> ailo-opera, I see you have Plugin Hosts and instruments, I am not so sure this makes sense from a workflow view (or any)
<Mish> Do you people have an icon-filenaming convention?
<len-dt> Mish, ubuntustudio-somename.ext
<Mish> ok
<len-dt> It is ok for somname to be a some-name
<len-dt> s/somname/somename
<Mish> alright
<len-dt> ailo, it makes more sense to me to have instruments and effects even if the plugin host supports both and so ends up in both areas.
<len-dt> That way they are grouped by the functionality they give from an audio POV
<len-dt> It would seem to me that the only time these catagories would/should be used is in a live situation. and so could be in a /live catagory
<len-dt> Any other time the plugins would be loaded into another app anyway. At least I think this is what we want the beginner to learn as the normal way of doing things.
<ailo> len-dt: In some way I like the idea of having more categories than needed at first, and then start slimming it down
<len-dt> So would you add effects?
<ailo> len-dt: I don't feel there's a need to be too particular, until all applications and workflows have been inspected
<ailo> len-dt: I don't have the starters in front of me right now. Do whatever you feel is right, and please edit the wiki page whenever you feel like it
<ailo> Adding is preferable to removing, of course
<len-dt> Ok I leave it as effects and sound gen. for now then as the directory files are already made.
<len-dt> I will add a plugin hosts to that.
<Mish> http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:UbuntuStudio-Icons-Video_Production.svg
<len-dt> Mish I see it... sort of midori doesn't seem to display it...
<Mish> also does the sound generator menu exist anymore?
<Mish> I think wikimedia takes some time to render bitmaps and then display it from the SVG.
<len-dt> Yes. I may change its name to instruments, but the menu will be there.
<Mish> You can directly download the SVG though via the link
<Mish> ok
<len-dt> Mish the video icon I can download but While I can see it in inkscape, if I export it to png it ends up blank.
<len-dt> I will try convert
<Mish> what is your image viewer?
<Mish> try using shotwell
<Mish> ristretto doesn't open those PNGs for me
<micahg> discussion about lowlatency kernel maintenance in precise in #ubuntu-devel
<Mish> Do you people use something like Wuala?
<len-dt> Mish, I don't know what that is.
<Mish> it's like Dropbox
<Mish> cloud storage
<micahg> There's Ubuntu One for those who want it
<len-dt> I have not, personally.
<Mish> No I mean do the developers use cloud storage for easier file sharing?
<len-dt> In the (somewhat limmited) work I have done no. I am not saying it shouldn't be.
<Mish> ok ubuntu one looks good
<scott-work_> and google, skydrive, and another one that i forget
<scott-work_> i think i have over 50 gigs of mostly free (and quite a bit of google paid) storage
<Mish> that too
<scott-work_> oh, box.com too
<Mish> http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/690/soundgen.png/
<Mish> http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/827/soundgen24x24.png/
<Mish> Sound generator fine?
<Mish> Or any other ideas if you don't like it?
<frewsxcv> imageshack still exists?
<frewsxcv> news to me
<Mish> lol it does
<Mish> why? isn't it supposed to?
<frewsxcv> I use to use Wuala, until I got tired of loading the JVM everytime i wanted access to my files
<frewsxcv> Well there's a lot better sites for image uploading now
<frewsxcv> imgur being the prime example
<Mish> opened it right now... too bad it won't work without javascript
<Mish> what does imgur offer? I mean how is it better?
<frewsxcv> it works without javascript
<frewsxcv> errr maybe not
<frewsxcv> less ads
<Mish> ha ha yeah
<frewsxcv> easy direct access to just the image
<Mish> ok........
<frewsxcv> imageshack is down a lot of the time
<frewsxcv> whatever you want
 * frewsxcv goes back to work
<Mish> btw you have any ideas for the sound generator icon? Have a look at the upload
<Mish> lol
<Mish> alright then
<len-dt> Mish, I think it will work fine. ailo ?
<len-dt> Mish, I was able to convert the svg to png. Inkscape does it, convert doesn't... At least not using the command line I got in the email :-)
<len-dt> Mish, One thing to note is that icons should be square I think. I'll have to try using it.
<micahg> len-dt: rsvg-convert?
<len-dt> micahg, just convert. I didn't know about another
<len-dt> convert foo.svg -background none -resize 64x64 foo.png
<len-dt> is the command line I was given
<micahg> ah, the imagemagick version as opposed to the librsvg version
<micahg> both should work fine
<len-dt> micahg, Studio doesn't seem to ship with  rsvg-convert
<micahg> no, it's used in some desktop apps
<len-dt> It may be because the image was not square to begin with... but even still Gimp doesn't seem to give more than a blank background of the right size.
<len-dt> micahg, when installing a package where svg icons are converted to pngs what command does that?
<len-dt> Talking ISO install.
<micahg> either, depending on what the build dependencies are
<micahg> they're converted at build time, not install time
<len-dt> Ya, that would be when the Package is installed to the image or is it when the package is built?
<len-dt> Mish, the Video icon I downloaded. It seems the image is outside the export area.
<len-dt> There is a box and when I move an element into it it shows in the icon boxes in the icon display.
<len-dt> Oops missed him.
<len-dt> micahg, the svg image I was trying to convert is not right.
<len-dt> micahg, Thank you for whatever made the ISO build today.
<micahg> len-dt: I did nothing, still missing the meta :)
<len-dt> micahg, both? (photography and publishing?)
<micahg> yes
<len-dt> Downloading and testing (there is another issue that may be fixed.
<len-dt> That would be why the ISO is actually smaller rather than bigger.
<micahg> new rebased lowlatency coming soon
<len-dt> Sounds wonderful ... rebased means? (does this mean for 12.04?)
<micahg> no, for quantal (rebased on the latest kernel in the archive), 12.04 will have a discussion with apw and scott-work_ offline
<len-dt> Ok
<scott-work_> micahg: has apw been in contact with you? we talked a bit in PM
<scott-work_> he said he would send an email to me in the next few days regarding the commitment
<micahg> scott-work_: see scrollback in #ubuntu-devel from about 2 hours ago
<scott-work_> looking
<scott-work_> i see
<len-dt> ailo, scott-work_  The idea of moving all subs menus up one level in a workflow menu would not work. If you don't know what I mean, that's ok too  :)
<scott-work_> len-dt: is that what ailo was suggesting?
<len-dt> scott-work_, No it was an idea I had to keep the user from having to go through so many levels.
<len-dt> It can be done, but on a netbook the menu would go off the screen or wrap, either would be harder to use
<len-dt> scott-work_, Our problem with the theme has been fixed Bug 1016713
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1016713 in shimmer-themes (Ubuntu) "Different greys in LightDM shutdown and accessibility menus" [Undecided,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1016713
<len-dt> I just tested it.
<len-dt> our bug #1018080
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1016713 in shimmer-themes (Ubuntu) "duplicate for #1018080 Different greys in LightDM shutdown and accessibility menus" [Undecided,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1016713
<ailo> len-dt: The idea for the menu is like it is now, but expanded with more submenus
<ailo> len-dt: Is that not what you have been working on?
<len-dt> What I have been working on would fit either in the current menus or as a separate menu just for workflows.
<len-dt>  I am testing the second way because it will mess up my system less.
<ailo> len-dt: What do mean by moving up submenus?
<len-dt> ailo, it doesn't matter the menus would end up being too big.
<len-dt> But...
<len-dt> I meant that instead of having an audio menu, just have all the audio workflows in the main menu.
<len-dt> That would not work for sure in the main menu and even in a workflow menu would not work.
<ailo> len-dt: No, that would be too big. I think having the same system as now is ok. The main categories: audio, graphics, video, photography and publishing. And let all of them have submenus
<ailo> That is the way it's laid out in the wiki
<ailo> I think anywhere between 5-10 submenus is tolerable. But, it's hard to know, before trying
<ailo> Maybe a bit over 10, but then it starts to look really crowded
<ailo> Might help having icons with the menu, to make them stand out visually
<ailo> I mean, for the submenus
<len-dt> I guess so... personally, I don't like it. I would prefer to have a main menu without too much workflow stuff and a workflow menu to guide people who don't know what app to use for what. The workflow menu idea makes it hard for someone who wants to use a different workflow
<len-dt> They have to think in two or more workflows to find their tools.
<ailo> len-dt: What I mean is, that the workflow menu, no matter if it is in the main menu or not, would benfit the most from having that structure
<ailo> If you mix workflow submenus, how can you tell if they are for audio or video?
<ailo> Unless you name them audio-*, audio-*, video-*, video-*, etc
<len-dt> using separators
<ailo> len-dt: When creating category lists, I find that 5-10 is a good number in a list. It has to do with the human eye. We can see 5-7 items at once. 20 is too much
<len-dt> the way you laid things out is not bad because there is still a good app desc to menu rate.
<ailo> len-dt: But, in this case, we might have 5 menus that are actual workflows, and the rest is just utility
<len-dt> Yes and the netbook screen runs out of room at 16
<ailo> len-dt: I did mold the workflow menu in the wiki to be used as the main menu. If you make a pure workflow menu, you can leave out a lot of those submenus
<ailo> len-dt: You could separate the workflow stuff from the utility stuff alltogether
<ailo> len-dt: Let's do another version of that list
<len-dt> Just checked netbook limit is 24.
<ailo> len-dt: Doesn't the menu become scrollable?
<len-dt> Ya it would work. I could find everything.
<len-dt> scrollable means more mouse movement to find something.
<len-dt> Using a touch pad is worse.
<ailo> Well, we aren't doing this just for the netbook
<ailo> And those aren't easy to handle anyway
<ailo> Anyway, I'm creating a new menu specifically for the workflow panel
<len-dt> It'll take me a bit to get pics of this one put together :-)
<ailo> len-dt: Would be best to have two different menus, or just one. If two, one for utilities, such as jack controllers and different mixers. The other for pure workflows
<ailo> If one, just for workflows. Goes without saying
<len-dt> Do you mean two extra menus? or main and workflow?
<len-dt> scott-work_, greybird now has a blue window bar and blue shadowing on mouse over menu selections
<ailo> len-dt: More like, utilities and workflow
<ailo> Or Control and Workflow
<len-dt> So Control and Workflow and no main?
<ailo> len-dt: Since this is for the specifically for the workflow panel, and not for the main menu
<len-dt> So two menus off of panel1 (panel0 being the top one)
<len-dt> Ok, or the Workflow  menu might have one entry for utilities along with the five workflow main topics.
<len-dt> ailo, the problem I mentioned with chromium earlier has gone away in quantal.
<len-dt> Before anyone asks ... no I am not suggesting we ship it :-)
<ailo> len-dt: Yeah, I think there's enough to worry about.
<ailo> len-dt: So, again, not much different. Trying to filter out stuff from workflows that don't need to be there https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/WorkflowPanel
<ailo> len-dt: That's meant to be documentation for the panel as a whole, but I only put in this broken menu example
<ailo> len-dt: if the panel were just to be used for menus, then of course, you can put each workflow menu in its own spot on the panel
<ailo> So, then it would be, for audio: AUDIO -> EDITING -> Audacity, as an example
<ailo> But, if using a mother menu for all workflows, it would go: WORKFLOWS -> AUDIO -> EDITING -> Audacity
<ailo> len-dt: I was trying to be a bit creative with the utility menu, by placing the jack controllers directly under the UTILITIES -> AUDIO -> qjackctl
<ailo> And mixers, since not used as much, in a menu deeper: UTILITIES -> AUDIO -> MIXERS -> mudita24
<ailo> UTILITIES could be named something else. Something closer to Settings, or Control
<scott-work_> i like the idea of a either a menu item (level with Audio, Graphics, etc) for workflows or even a separate panel icon for just workflow menu (one that a user can remove easily without destroying the main menu)
<scott-work_> therefore, the main menu would have Audio, Video, Internet, Office, Settings, Graphics, Video, WORKFLOWS, etc
<scott-work_> or
<scott-work_> a separate menu icon for just work flows
<scott-work_> just ideas
<ailo> scott-work_: This is for a separate menu, so could be a separate menu in the panel
<ailo> In any panel
<scott-work_> aye
<scott-work_> .i have to go pick up kids
<len-dt> ailo, have you seen this idea? http://klang.eudyptula.org/
<len-dt> And this : http://ardour.org/pd_on_klang
<ailo> len-dt: Yea, I saw it in the mail
<ailo> I don't care about the critisism. For whatever reason it is done, the guy trying will at least learn something
<ailo> And with any luck, the project actually turns out to be great
<len-dt> Time will tell.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2012-08-01
<scott-work> ailo: astraljava: len-dt: and anyone else interested:
<scott-work> talk has started again with UKT perons about -lowlatency kernel maintenance 
<scott-work> the thrust of it appears to be as follows:
<scott-work>  * UKT will create the -lowlatency kernel and attend to it during development of any particular release (e.g. during Q)
<len-dt> scott-work, what about precise?
<scott-work> * a UKT designate (probably andy whitcroft, who is knows as apw) will document the rebasing procedure for our benefit
<scott-work> * a similar UKT designate will set up an automated bug report that will notify us when a we need to rebase (which i believe will be most times for security updates)
<scott-work>  * we need to identify people interested in shouldering this responsibility
<scott-work> * we already have created a ubuntu studio kernel team
<len-dt> scott-work, do we still have someone in our team who is doing anything with kernels?
<scott-work> * UKT will mentor us on the process
<scott-work> * we will rebase as needed and propose for sponsorship
<scott-work>  * i believe UKT will then upload after checking
<scott-work> len-dt: wrt precise, i'm less "precise" about what is happening there
<scott-work> (hahahaha, i keeeel myself)
<scott-work> UKT may be handling that for the time being since it appears to be needing updates, but i may be wrong
<scott-work> i would expect that they will help us (i.e. do it) this transgression and when we are educated and mentored, then we will be responsibile
<len-dt> ok.
<scott-work> len-dt: wrt "doing anythign with kernels" - i believe ailo, astraljava , and i have expressed interest in doing this
<scott-work> however, anyone interested can be involved most likely (unless 500 people volunteer)
<len-dt> I've/am pretty much used up my time right now. I need to get involved with pulse a bit it seems... I have some ideas for it that will make it more usable in a pro audio environment.
<len-dt> There is a configuration change that would affect pulse even when jackd is not running.
<len-dt> I don't know if it is available now, but it should be accessible from a gui, preferably theirs but ours if need be.
<ailo> scott-work: I've already spent quite some time studying kernel maintenance, and would gladly take the responsibility
<ailo> It's not a huge job to do the work though. It's just a few commands
<scott-work> ailo: i expect it will be easier than you might think because i believe UKT might create scripts to assist us
<scott-work> ailo: len-dt astraljava : oooh, one big thing i forgot....we will need to provide testing of the kernel
<scott-work> i.e. before proposing a rebased kernel for upload, we will need to test the kernel
<scott-work> UKT really isn't set up to validate a lowlatency kernel, as you might expect
<scott-work> and since we are the experts on lowlatency kernels, we should do the testing
<len-dt> I don't mind testing if it comes as a deb
<scott-work> len-dt: that is understandable, wrt your time
<scott-work> len-dt: we might be able to set up a kernel testing ppa that would make it more accessible
<len-dt> That would be fine. The last time a packaged our default-settings package (for sru to precise) it took forever...
<len-dt> and there was not compiling involved.
<scott-work> my work flow for testing is probably not as cool as others (like micah) but...
<scott-work> i like a dedicated physical machine upon which to test
<scott-work> and i install the dev OS on it
<scott-work> i tend to use another, stable machine to handle all the code and push to ppa
<scott-work> and i add the ppa to the dev machine and update it to test
<scott-work> i feel like that is more accessible, tangible, and understandable
<scott-work> i've done some stuff in a chroot (like prevu) but i'm still not completely comfortable with it yet as i don't understand enough of the aspects
<len-dt> ailo, scott-work http://www.ovenwerks.net/UStudiodocs/workflow-menu.html
<len-dt> ailo, that is based on the flow you gave me yesterday.
<len-dt> probably the help item should be at the top on all of them. Something better than the transmission icon would be nice for the menu too :-)
<len-dt> The help icons would all have to have their own desktop file anyway and so could also have text that said "understanding workflows" for the main workflow menu. "Which workflow should I use" for the four types of projects (like audio production in this case). The workflow itself wold have "Using the Audio Editing Workflow"
<len-dt> ailo, scott-work, there has been talk about a workflow only menu and a utilities menu. I am not sure where to go with that.
<len-dt> Would the utilities menu also be broken down into submenus and sub-subs?
<len-dt> Is the idea to be able to do all studio work without ever having to use the main menu?
 * len-dt doesn't ask enough questions...
<len-dt> ailo, there are after adding the apps as you suggest rather a lot of apps left over in the menu spec that have not been placed. These would be used from the main menu.
<ailo> scott-work: It is quite easy following scripts, until you get problems, like you would with the -lowlatency that is uploaded to precise right now. In which case, the scripts are useless
<ailo> But, as long as things work smoothly, yes, it is quite easy
<ailo> scott-work: I'm currently working on testing scripts for US.
<ailo> scott-work: And I have multiple machines set up to do testing myself
<ailo> len-dt: What you have done is how I designed the structure for the main menu
<len-dt> What I have done can be put any place, I don't want to mess up my main menu...
<ailo> len-dt: Later, since you preferred a workflow menu outside of the main menu, I made a new structure, but both are just sketches
<len-dt> What I have done has two purposes, it shows how a menu would look in a different location and it shows us the work involved
<ailo> scott-work: I expect the people who will be doing most of the testing will be len and me
<ailo> scott-work: And since I'm the one into kernels, would make most sense if I maintained it
<len-dt> ailo, Changing topics once again... I have been looking at pulse configuration.
<len-dt> It appears we can set pulse not to play with alsa device controls, but not on a per-device basis
<ailo> len-dt: You mean you can set PA to not control any of the levels of the card?
<len-dt> I have to test it, but it looks like there are two or three modules that deal with alsa device setting.
<len-dt> They can be not loaded.
<len-dt> I am tired of setting my levels to use with jack and having pulse reset them as soon as jack is notrunning
<len-dt> I find the monitor mixer on the d66 quite useful but pulse keeps turning it off.
<len-dt> ailo, I set up my mic/instrument pre so I am under clipping, then set my alsa controls (mudita24) so my digital levels are not clipping. Now I start audacity which grabs pulse... pulse sets my input levels to whatever it last remembers they should be... if I  change levels inside pulse it changes them too.
<len-dt> I would like pulse to deal with the device the same as it deals with jacksink/source.
<ailo> len-dt: Are you saying pulse controls your d66 internal hw levels? Cause it doesn't for me
<ailo> oops. need to get going. Participating in an event. 2km uphill
<len-dt> bye
<len-dt> ailo, when you get back... it appears it has been jackd all along. I like to set my routing up so that H/W out 1&2 are connected to the digital mixer.
<len-dt> In qjackctl I have set up H/W meter and figured H/W monitor too.
<len-dt> Well, setting H/W monitor lets jack set my H/W Out 1& 2 to PCM out.... bypassing the monitor mixer.
<len-dt> ailo, to my mind qjackdctl has things backwards. H/W monitor is on when unchecked and off when checked.
<len-dt> Or perhaps jackd moves the connections the wrong way.
<len-dt> Or the ALSA switches in the ice1712 driver are backwards to everything else.
<len-dt> I guess the reason I figured pulse played with my d66 settings is because it does play with my HDA settings. (netbook)
<ailo> len-dt: The "Monitor" button creates a double set of HW inputs. It's not related to the internal monitoring of cards
<ailo> len-dt: If you want to enable HW monitoring for your d66, route your output 1 and 2 to digital mixer in mudita24
<ailo> Under "Patchbay/ Router"
<ailo> That will enable the Levels in "Monitor Inputs" and "Monitor Outputs"
<ailo> The Monitor input and output levels become in effect a HW monitor mixer, which does not affect recording levels
<ailo> So, no need to use "monitor" in qjackctl.
<ailo> len-dt: Just remember to unmute the "Monitor" levels to get sound
<len-dt> ailo, I was not talking about the monitor button but the H/W Monitor button just above H/W meters.
<len-dt> man jackd says it will:
<len-dt> Enable hardware monitoring of capture ports.
<len-dt> "When  enabled,  requests to monitor capture ports will be satisâ
<len-dt>               fied by creating a direct signal path  between  audio  interface
<len-dt>               input and output connectors, with no processing by the host comâ
<len-dt>               puter at all.  This offers the lowest possible latency  for  the
<len-dt>               monitored signal."
<len-dt> I'm not sure what this means, but I have decided that it is much easier to set this up with mudita24 than with jack and whatever.
<len-dt> (using the method you describe, which is how I expected to BTW)
<len-dt> I am guessing, that jack can request an internal connection from a capture port to a playback port that mudita doesn't see.
<len-dt> But the jack list of connections does see.
<len-dt> I would rather use the digital mixer/mixbus
<scott-work> the word appears that andy from UKT will update the lowlatency kernel in precise
<scott-work> len-dt: that image is pretty awesome!
<scott-work> (i ignored the transmission icon, too ;) )
<scott-work> are we leaning to using a "dock" versus the top panel (where the main menu is)?
<len-dt> scott-work, that points out the major outlay in time would be... icons.
<scott-work> i realize that it really isn't a "dock" but just another panel, but it is modified to look like a dock
<scott-work> len-dt: understood, i like it
<len-dt> The top bar is a panel the bottom one is a panel.
<len-dt> I just like my panel to the side.
<scott-work> i realize that about the panels, just visually the bottom (and your side) panel is designed to look like a "dock"
<scott-work> len-dt: i do the same actually
<len-dt> You may also notice I have fewer icons than stock.
<scott-work> i think we should also probably change the language of the menus to reflect work flows as the intent of the menu
<scott-work> aye
<scott-work> ^^ fewer icons
<scott-work> i'm really liking the accessibility of this, but the separation from the main menu
<len-dt> scott-work, it could be just as easily a part of the top panel just like the old gnome bar has main menu, places, system.
<len-dt> If so I would recommend enabling text next to the icon.
<scott-work> len-dt: agreed on the text next to the icon!  most defintely
<scott-work> len-dt: do you think it should be on the top panel?
<len-dt> scott-work, I have no preference.
<scott-work> i'm not sure that is the best place as i really like the separation, the physical separation is kinda representative of the separation of intent
<len-dt> my feeling is that I would use the main menu.
<scott-work> len-dt: i think if it is uncluttered (i.e. no system, office, interent) then it would be preferable to me
<scott-work> and maybe others as well
<len-dt> To be more plain, I think the idea has merit, but it has more use for someone who doesn't know the applications than someone who does.
<scott-work> just like how we separate audio apps from video apps, having content production apps away from non-content production apps
<len-dt> It is a personal thing though. I don't have anything against it.
<scott-work> yeah, agreed, neither is right or wrong ;)
<scott-work> but this would replace some of the things i had set up on my old rig (that i haven't set up again on my 12.04 machine)
<scott-work> i just like having a simple and very immediate place for clicking on the items i use the most (like jack, ardour, hydrogen for audio)
<len-dt> I also don't mind it taking up space on one panel or another and would not remove it.
<scott-work> len-dt: speaking of "one" space...what if a dock had a single "space" for each discipline?
<scott-work> or would that be silly for the video or graphical ones currently where there isn't much under the work flow at this point?
<len-dt> That could be better.
<scott-work> it could be a "work flow" dock (yeah, it's a panel disguised as a dock)
<len-dt> Ubuntustudio needs to place the same emphasis on video,graphics,photography and publishing as on audio.
<scott-work> i agree with that!!!!!
<len-dt> So menuing and workflows should be just as elborate for them too.
<scott-work> i really believe the potential is there with the other apps becoming more robust and mature, we just need to develop the knowledge and experience
<len-dt> even if there are only two workflows for the other sections, they will still be three deep.
<len-dt> So having a menu for each (5 in all) would make that only 2 deep.
<len-dt> ailo suggested to have one utils directory (or controls or whatever), but I would do one for each of the core products in its own menu
<len-dt> scott-work, the only thing is that I don't know how to make it so only the workflows installed are shown.
<len-dt> There is some work going on to make the life install more like the alt... sort of combined without doubling the size of the ISO
<len-dt> s/life/live
<len-dt> So if someone doesn't install graphics then the graphics menu shouldn't show up either.
<scott-work> len-dt: hmmmm, good question
<len-dt> Also, once the user's directory has been created and logged into. The panel can no longer be modified. xfce uses a copy in the user's home. The workflow menu can be changed though.
<scott-work> which reminds me, we need to sort out that ubiquity plugin pretty soon or else it will delayed again antoher cycle
<scott-work> i was hoping astraljava would be available to complete this task
<len-dt> In an email from Emmet HIKORY, Where we talked about selecting metas at install time, he suggested there was change in the air and to find out what. His words "as it would be exceedingly frustrating to
<len-dt> generate a solution that needed significant rework prior to release"
<len-dt> scott-work, ^^
<scott-work> mmmm, sounds slightly ominous
<len-dt> The whole text is on the list july 28
<len-dt> topic is: Re: Another idea for comments
<len-dt> It is the last paragraph.
<len-dt> There has already been changes, in 12.04 everything is copied to disk and then stuff not needed is removed. in 12.10 this has changed and ubiquity tries to detect what files not to copy in the first place.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2012-08-02
<len-dt> ailo, see the link in the list for a photography workflow.
<Mish> Len are you trying to export using command line?
<ailo> len-dt: Ah, yes. Monitor calibration. Of course. I've seen people doing graphics having some pretty expensive monitors just to make sure they get all the colors and a good balance
<ailo> len-dt: Not just for photography, I'd say. Anything visual based, so the same would go for graphics and video
<len-dt> Mish, got the new icon, it works nicely
<Mish> That's nice
<len-dt> My inet is really flaky today.
<Mish> inet?
<Mish> and why do some your messages appear red?
<Mish> *of
<len-dt> Ya, my nameservers keep vanishing
<len-dt> Or maybe my whole connection to the net. If it keeps up I will have to call my ISP
<len-dt> Mish, by squaring I had meant adding white space on the sides so the image is square... not the image itself. But I think it doesn't matter.
<len-dt> That message will be red because it contains your name.
<Mish> oh ok
<Mish> so does it render well now?
<Mish> instead of white space, adjusting the alpha channel would be better
<scott-work> len-dt: ailo, can someone give me a very quick intel dump, just a thumbnail sketch really, of what has happened during the last week?
<scott-work> i would like to send an email to the ubuntu-release mailing list for the meeting tomorrow
<len-dt> scott-work, i'm waiting for package releases. micahg hasn't had time so far.
<len-dt> seeds: the photography meta has it's own meta and is no longer a part of graphics
<scott-work> i know we have been working on the developing and mocking up the work flow menu idea
<scott-work> yay!
<len-dt> there is now a publishing meta
<scott-work> i'll bring up the question of the ubiquity plugin too
<len-dt> settings has had a lot of changes
<len-dt> bug #1003064  has been addressed
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1003064 in ubuntustudio-default-settings (Ubuntu) "[quantal] Panel & plugins config changes for 4.10" [Undecided,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1003064
<len-dt> extra software installers have been added
<len-dt> the publishing menu has been added
<len-dt> A setting.precise branch has been added to address the three bugs with that. Still has to be reviewed
<len-dt> tweak research has moved, but not as much this week.
<len-dt> Mish is making us some icons for our menus
<len-dt> ailo, may have more but is prolly sleeping
<scott-work> sweet, thank you very much for that
<len-dt> scott-work, there seems to be some problem with the script that makes metas out of the seed files
<scott-work> oh, thank you, i will note that in "other problems" area
<scott-work> i was just about to ask if there were any other blockers we need help with
<ailo> scott-work: I'm working on testing scripts, so that we can determine what the tweaks that len and myself have been looking at can do for Ubuntu Studio. I'm also working on -controls which will include tweaks that are interesting for the user to have control over. It will also include a system check script and the main feature will be letting administering user realtime right privilege
<ailo> scott-work: After that, I'll tend to documentation. 
<ailo> scott-work: I've just begun developer docs
<scott-work> cool!  thank you as well
<ailo> scott-work: I'll rework documentation on the main website too, adding a user guide based on your workflow idea. 
<scott-work> ailo: i have a question for you, well and everyone really, about documentation
<ailo> I hope I can finish all this before the final release, including uploading the new controls
<scott-work> do we intend to keep documentation on the wiki and the website?
<scott-work> will the same documetnation exist in both places?
<scott-work> should we parse some information to the wiki while other is on the website?
<scott-work> _which_ should be the primary location we expect users to find the information?
<scott-work> hi micahg 
<ailo> scott-work: I think I'll like to move user guides on software usage to the main site. Also, installation instructions. 
<ailo> The wiki could be redone so that it is more towards "how to's"
<ailo> The wiki is a great place to have more in depth docs
<scott-work> my thought was that i would probably not put any user documentation on help.ubuntu.com at all
<scott-work> i would shift it all over to the website
<micahg> hi scott-work
<ailo> There's not much of that kind of docs yet
<scott-work> i say that because i think most people who use ubuntu studio aren't really into ubuntu necessarily and aren't familiar with the whole ubuntu.com wiki and help pages
<ailo> scott-work: So, we have the same thought
<scott-work> i was surprised actually when people began telling me they found all their information through the website and not the wiki
<scott-work> ailo: yes, i believe we do
<ailo> scott-work: The main site *does* point docs to the help wiki, so I don't think they will miss it
<scott-work> but i was surprised their first thought was to use the website _first_ 
<ailo> Anyway, I'm not doing that yet. Need to do this system tweak thing first. Finish controls. Then I'll attend to docs
<scott-work> awesome
<ailo> scott-work: Later this fall, I'll have less time, but hopefully docs and implementation of system tweaks by me and len-dt will all be done by then
<ailo> scott-work: I would have liked to work on workflow software too, but I won't have the time. 
<ailo> scott-work: I would suggest trying to find interested coders for that 
<scott-work> good idea
<ailo> It's not really Ubuntu Studio specific, so the only thing that is interesting for us would be to have such a program
#ubuntustudio-devel 2012-08-03
<game2> hi, will there be a 12.04.1 release for Ubuntu Studio?
<micahg> someone might want to merge jackd2 to fix bug 1029685
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1029685 in jackd2 (Ubuntu Quantal) "jack_control script corrupted in 1.9.8~dfsg.4+20120529git007cdc37-1ubuntu2 " [Low,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1029685
<micahg> (ask infinity first as he touched it last)
<ailo> micahg: merge? Who's infinity?
<micahg> ailo: merge from Debian, infinity is an Ubuntu Developer that can be found in #ubuntu-devel
<ailo> micahg: merged
<micahg> great
<len-dt> scott-work, just sent mail to the list when you have time.
<scott-work> len-dt: i will look at it this morning, some funny stuff going on at work so i'm not sure exactly when
<len-dt> I won't be doing anything with it today as I want comments first.
<scott-work> len-dt: re: adobe.icc, i don't think that is for adobe pdf viewer (but i could be wrong), it may be for photoshop under wine
<scott-work> don't mark those items for ttoine as done yet, please
<scott-work> i would like to look at these issues this weekend
<len-dt> When I went to the site It seemed to be a collection of ICC profiles.
<scott-work> i had already looked at something similar
<scott-work> i worry, however, that the way vanilla ubuntu seems to have done some of their setting managers is that it isn't a collection of discreet apps
<len-dt> scott-work, what vanilla uses for monitor setup seems to be what we have already. It just doesn't show up in the menu... ours or the vanilla one.
<len-dt> It shows up when the colorimeter is plugged in.
<len-dt> If it doesn't the tool suggested dispcalGUI. But this is not in our repos.
<len-dt> So what we have is tied to the USB modules we ship. When a colorimeter is detected, argyl and gnome-color-manager start and the gnome-color-manager GUI shows up on the screen. The gui leads the user through the steps to create and save an ICC profile unique to the user's monitor.
<len-dt> As with soundcards not all colorimeter hardware is directly supported :P
<len-dt> If the user has unsupported HW, at present the solution is to find dispcalGUI, which our repos don't have :P
<scott-work> this is a very cool link: https://launchpad.net/~/+upcomingwork
<scott-work> worked for me, i'm presuming it will work for anybody with a launchpad account
<scott-work> that's good information you wrote, len-dt 
<len-dt> We do ship dispcal which is the non gui version.
<len-dt> Yes that link works for me too. A number of the in progress items are just waiting for the package to be released. The work is done otherwise.
<len-dt> I had a solution for xchat with having our irc channel included. micahg thought that using another file in /etc/skel would be a maintenance problem.
<len-dt> Unfortunately, the server list is in the source. The ubuntu package patches the source to add #ubuntu.
<len-dt> micahg, suggests that we ask the ubuntu maintainer to add a hook to the code that allows all ubuntu flavours to add their own channel.
<len-dt> firefox has had this done already, we only need to add a file to /etc/firefox or /etc/firefox/pref to do that.
<len-dt> though this is not where ubuntu vanilla does it... 
<scott-work> we will need to test the 12.04.1 images by the end of next week
<scott-work> len-dt: we could file a bug against xchat then for the hook
<len-dt> scott-work, there is a menu fix that would go well with 12.04.1. It needs review or something.
<len-dt>  The package is ubuntustudio-default-settings.precise. I have built the package on my machine and installed it on a fresh 12.04 install (after all the updates when through.)
<len-dt> It works fine.
<len-dt> It just needs to be approved for SRU.
<len-dt> It fixes three bugs: help points at something, menu file points at directory files that exist in xfce, and two mixer entries are removed from mediaplayback.
<len-dt> All three bugs have been fixed in 12.10
<scott-work> len-dt: it might be too close to releasing, but is this even an SRU item?
<scott-work> isn't this really just a bug?
 * scott-work admits he forgets some of the classifications
<scott-work> i would posit that if this actually is an SRU it would probably be too late, however if we are just fixing a bug it might not be
<len-dt> I too am having trouble figuring my way through this. scott-work I don't know the difference.
<len-dt> I find it confusing. The fix has been ready for a week anyway.
<len-dt> scott-work, at this point I have given up on it and am working on new stuff for 12.10
<len-dt> ailo, where are you putting your script from the tweaks GUI? (for things that need to be changed when jackd is run)
<len-dt> scott-work, with regards to display calibration there is also lprof. It seems to be the only other app that allows the use of a colorimeter.
<len-dt> Anything else just goes by eyeball. My feeling is that as we expect studio to be usable by professional users the eyeball is not good enough.
<len-dt> That being said, there may also be some users who want something better than nothing but are not will to spend the money on a colorimeter and would like an eyeball app.
<len-dt> falktx, I have read a lot of comments about the non-session-manager as opposed to the jack session manager. Do you have any comments?
<len-dt> I ask because the non-applications are in you repo but not in ubuntu's (yet?)
<len-dt> s/you/your
<falktx> len-dt: it's a new way to do things, but still needs polishing
<len-dt> So it is alpha then falktx ?
<falktx> no, it's 1.1.0, but has a few bugs
<falktx> the developer recommends using the latest git, but I'm not happy with that
<len-dt> So it is not ready for debian/ubuntu repos yet. But looks to be well accepted when it is.
<len-dt> (studio has to work from ubuntu repos)
<len-dt> It sounds like I shold not be looking at getting it there at this time though
<len-dt> Thankyou
<falktx> len-dt: don't get too excited about nsm
<falktx> the people who say good things about it are blind fans
<falktx> I've seen 1 or 2 around...
<falktx> kinda reminds me of apple fans... ;)
#ubuntustudio-devel 2012-08-04
<Mish> http://www.fsf.org/campaigns/secure-boot-vs-restricted-boot/statement
<len-dt> I don't seem to be able to sign the above form. I get a database error.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2012-08-05
<Mish> Ubuntu is ditching grub2 because of the Secure boot UEFI issue, for quantal. What are you guys doing about it?
<Mish> Also why isn't everyone protesting against secure boot as much as I though they would?
<len-dt> Mish, I don't think we have a whole lot of choice. We use ubuntu as a base for our own stuff. Ubuntu Studio is ubuntu.
<Mish> I know, I though that if you guys differed in opinion then you might make make a fork 
<Mish> *thought
<len-dt> Part of the reason there are not more signatures on the petition is that the web page gives errors for some people who try to sign.
<Mish> is that so?
<Mish> oh and for everyone over here
<Mish> http://www.fsf.org/campaigns/secure-boot-vs-restricted-boot/statement
<len-dt> We... are having a hard time keeping up with other things just now
<Mish> hmm....
<Mish> I understand
<len-dt> Also, I don't know that it is our place be a protest element. I do hope that Ubuntu leave grub2 in the repos
<Mish> Yes that too
<len-dt> I wonder if there will hacks to bios available take restricted boot out of arm devices.
<Mish> There sure will be hacks and cracks but then it will soon be taken care of by Microsoft with subsequent releases
<Mish> What makes me sick is Microsoft resorting to FUD tactics yet again but at such a fundamental level
<len-dt> Yes and no. It will give manufactures enough trouble that they just include a way around it.
<len-dt> This has happened in the past.
<len-dt> It may even be a jumper.
<Mish> a jumper?
<len-dt> on the mother board.
<Mish> oh ok
<Mish> but then that would be easy enough to remove
<len-dt> It would make windows products unable to be able to tell it could be unrestricted.
<len-dt> There was a lot of back and forth about Intel not selling chips to MB makers who put slots for AMD (or other) CPUs on there products. They kept getting around Intel's stuff untill Itel gave up.
<Mish> I hope that sort of thing somehow happens over here.
<Mish> Although Microsoft doesn't have a huge market share in the ARM market
<len-dt> They are hoping this will change that, by locking other OSs out. It may have the opposite effect. I still remember a time when Digital Research was the only word in micro-computer OS... then the IBM PC came out with something else... DR is gone. M$ could vanish just as easy... though TBH I have no idea just now how.
<ailo> len-dt: I don't have internet access for at least a day. Will check in now and then. Just so you know why I'm not online.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2013-07-29
<madeinkobaia> ttoine : I sent you an answer about the webshop. Otherwise, did you meet Kaj today ?
<ttoine> no
<ttoine> but last week
<ttoine> madeinkobaia, check your emails too ;-)
<madeinkobaia> :P
<ttoine> madeinkobaia, how did you do to lock the svg files ??
<madeinkobaia> ttoine: On inkscape there is an option for lock the layers, see the "cadena" icon beside the layers otherwise maybe the file is on "read only" status. In both case its easy to unlock.
<ttoine> ah yes, ok
<ttoine> I didn't see that at all
<ttoine> I will try to find some time to do it in the week
<madeinkobaia> ok :)
#ubuntustudio-devel 2013-07-30
<ttoine> zequence, new mug on the shop
<OvenWerks> micahg: we have a new package ubuntustudio-installer https://code.launchpad.net/~ubuntustudio-dev/ubuntustudio/ubuntustudio-installer
<OvenWerks> Anything extra I need to do for a new package?
<zequence> OvenWerks: Let me have a look at that too
<zequence> OvenWerks: I'll do that tomorrow. About to go to sleep soon
#ubuntustudio-devel 2013-07-31
<micahg> OvenWerks: I'll need to get a second review
<micahg> OvenWerks: hrm, I'm not sure what this is for
<micahg> so, this is a GUI?
<OvenWerks> micahg: half and half, It works with a mouse. The progress bar shows in the terminal. It works in any flavour of ubuntu without any extra packages.
<OvenWerks> It takes the packages for the user to select from the command line, so it can be used in different ways with just a different desktop file.
<OvenWerks> We were using USC, but many of the flavours (lubuntu and kde) don't ship USC and setting that as a depends would bloat things too much.
<micahg> OvenWerks: if you're iterating over the list anyways, why not just use apt-cache show
<OvenWerks> I do
<micahg> I see apt-cache search
<micahg> you could use apt-cache show $ARGV[$count] | grep Description
<OvenWerks> I had problems with show then.
<micahg> then you wouldn't have to iterate over the output, just check if you have any
<OvenWerks> The speed doesn't seem to be real slow, but I can try that too.
<OvenWerks> I did try different things, so far this seems to have worked best. I am willing to try more stuff though.
<micahg> hrm
<micahg> OvenWerks: take a look at libapt-pkg-perl and AptPkg::PkgRecords, you should be able to do it without hitting the command line
<micahg> but I guess we could upload as is
<OvenWerks> zenity does have a progress bar, but I was having difficulty dealing with the whole of apt-gets progress. just downloading the packages goes to 100%
<micahg> hrm, I wonder if libapt-pkg-perl can help
<OvenWerks> I will take a look.
<OvenWerks> micahg: I was hoping to have it available so ubuntustudio-menu could depend on it.
<micahg> OvenWerks: ok, I'll review and try to get someone else to as well and then upload, will ping when it happens
<OvenWerks> Thank you. maybe by 14.04 I will have figured out an all GUI setup.
<micahg> OvenWerks: I have a question, do you want the Ubuntu Studio Meta Installer shipped with Ubuntu Studio??
<micahg> right now if menu depends on it, you'll have that desktop entry on your image
<micahg> and upgraders will get it as well
<Lumpy> heyas
<Lumpy> and OvenWerks i want to pick your brain when i get off the air
<Lumpy> if you have the time
<Lumpy> i have some cli question
<micahg> OvenWerks: I have 3 lintian warnings on the binary
 * micahg waves to ScottL 
<ScottL> hi micahg, how are you doing?
<micahg> ok, and you?
<ScottL> doing well
<ScottL> been playing with amazon ec2 and juju a bit
<ScottL> doing music again
<ScottL> and should be starting school in sept for an IT degree with network design and management focus
<OvenWerks> Hey ScottL good to see you
<ScottL> hi len
<OvenWerks> micahg: I guess I just ran it against the src.
<micahg> OvenWerks: ok, would you mind fixing?
<OvenWerks> downloading a binary now.
<micahg> thanks
<OvenWerks> micahg: how come these things don't show up when running lintian against the src package?
<micahg> those checks might be binary only checks
<OvenWerks> I will do both from now on.
<micahg> great
<smartboyhw> I'm back!!!!!
<zequence> ScottL: Happy to hear about your school plans
<zequence> ScottL: And thanks for handing over the last stuff
<zequence> smartboyhw: Yes, it seems you are :P
<zequence> smartboyhw: How was your England trip?
<zequence> OvenWerks: I don't think the menu should depend on the installer
<zequence> We could create a new meta package that includes the menu, the installer, and the redone controls application
<smartboyhw> Hi zequence:)
<zequence> smartboyhw: hi
<zequence> smartboyhw: How was your trip to England?
<smartboyhw> zequence: Great!
<zequence> Finally got a new processor for my server. AMD 8 core piledriver
<smartboyhw> zequence: Wa,
<smartboyhw> How many GHz?
<zequence> Going to try using virtual machines for development now for a while
<zequence> 3.5 GHz. Doesn't need to be a monster
<smartboyhw> :)
<zequence> besides, I'm sure compiling a kernel should not take long with 8 cores
<smartboyhw> zequence: Ofc la
<zequence> Only a week left until I travel to Switzerland. DebConf begins the following Sunday. 
<OvenWerks> zequence: the reason the menu would depend on the installer is that it can be used for the extra software items instead of usc. that way they will work in all flavours.
<zequence> OvenWerks: I don't see why the installer needs to fulfill a specific purpose like that. If someone wants the installer, they can just install that
<zequence> and using that, they can install other things, like the menu
<zequence> OvenWerks: I haven't yet tried in command line on Ubuntu. Does it work without zenity?
<OvenWerks> I think zenity works without x
<OvenWerks> I can try it on my headless machine.
<OvenWerks> nope, not a part of server
<OvenWerks> is there areason you feel it needs to be termonal only?
 * OvenWerks just woke up...
<zequence> OvenWerks: I think it could be both. If zenity wont's start, make it strictly command line.
<zequence> Though, there may be little point
<zequence> Since you can always just use apt-get for that
<zequence> And I suppose the whole point of the installer is to give the user an easy gui alternative
<OvenWerks> I was looking for a gui installer yes (and the progress bar may get that soon too). It does not make sense to use one of our metas on a headless server as most of the apps need x
<zequence> Yeah
<zequence> except, when you do the initial install
<zequence> but, again, you can just use apt
<zequence> I'm going to create a Ubuntu Studio System Settings application, which in a way will be what -controls has been so far
<zequence> -controls will be an indicator application only, with starters for both the installer and the system settings
<zequence> preferably also controls for jack
<OvenWerks> I was developing for quite a narrow use :) the possibility of expanding is always there. Getting its first release lets it fill two needs now
<zequence> Yeah, it could be used for installing other multimedia stuff as well
<OvenWerks> yup
<OvenWerks> The idea is for it to be a new app for each desktop file.
<zequence> OvenWerks: Sorry, I didn't get the last part
<OvenWerks> zequence: it is a different installer depending on the *.desktop file.
<OvenWerks> I could add search and other things, but why? LSC already does that if usc is too heavy
<OvenWerks> anyway I need to go.
<zequence> LSC?
<zequence> Lubuntu Software Center?
<zequence> later
<OvenWerks> wrote my first man page :P
<OvenWerks> next they will start calling a developer...
<zequence> OvenWerks: have you had a look at the apps that falktx has done btw?
<zequence> OvenWerks: There might be things he has done that are in the lines of what we do, and therefore, might be good to see if we can use any of that
<OvenWerks> I have looked at some in the past. I don't really like the control app... but then I have real specific ideas of what _I_ want :)
<OvenWerks> He keeps says he will do a debian release.
<zequence> OvenWerks: I'm not too worried about falktx opinions, or yours, or mine. Just what is best for Ubuntu Studio
<OvenWerks> I here the lv2/dssi container works really well though
<zequence> the controls app was a bit messy IMO as well
<OvenWerks> *hear
<zequence> Yes, the multi plugin host is probably a great addition to the choice of apps we have
<zequence> to Linux Audio in general
<zequence> He's done a couple of other apps too
<OvenWerks> I agree
<zequence> one that has a list of applications in it, that also shows what they support
<OvenWerks> I haven't really had time to get into session management, so I haven't tried that. Mostly I just use ardour, one track at a time.
<zequence> that would be yet another areas, yeah
<zequence> area*
<zequence> I'm pretty much the same there
<zequence> I don't need it myself
<zequence> but, it would be great for new users probably
<OvenWerks> I don't really play KB, so that is a blind side for me
<OvenWerks> I do have a small set of pads, but am really out of practice with drums of any kind.
<zequence> OvenWerks: I'm sure you've heard about Ubuntu Edge
<zequence> http://www.indiegogo.com/projects/ubuntu-edge--37
<zequence> The funding seems to be slowing down
<zequence> it's behind now
<zequence> I'd buy one, if I had the cash right now
<zequence> pretty awesome stuff
<OvenWerks> I think that is my feeling too... if. Right now there are so many things I would like, that is not to close to the top of the list.
<OvenWerks> Where our family plans are headed though might move it up a bit...
<zequence> OvenWerks: You've really done a great job on Ubuntu Studio development lately. On actual development work, I suppose you're the only contributor for a while
<OvenWerks> one project at a time
<OvenWerks> I wish it was possible to get more application fixes done.
<zequence> I'm cleaning up some stuff before feature freeze at least
<OvenWerks> I start to get lost pretty quick once things get to 100 lines of code or so... even more so if it is someone elses code.
<zequence> our projects and packages need to be cleaned up
<zequence> It's quite problematic keeping order in code
<zequence> I find
<zequence> unix thinking is probably not a bad idea
<zequence> try to keep tools small and uncomplicated, and then use layers above the tools for combining them
<OvenWerks> Ya.
<zequence> OvenWerks: Scott handed over some of the last projects that were not owned by ubuntustudio-core before. I'm thinking of doing a complete overhaul on all of our projects, and also moving sources where they belong, and so forth
<zequence> OvenWerks: Think I'll wait until post 13.10, or at least until we're done developing
<zequence> I'm leaning towards making all the organization, planning and LP stuff as much project based as possible
<zequence> per package in the case of code
<OvenWerks> OK
<holstein> !nvidia
<ubottu> For Ati/NVidia/Matrox video cards, see https://help.ubuntu.com/community/VideoDriverHowto
#ubuntustudio-devel 2013-08-01
 * cub is back from vacation
<smartboyhw> Welcome back cub
<cub> hi, you are back as well? How aws the UK?
<smartboyhw> cub, great:)
<cub> where were you?
<smartboyhw> cub, London.
<cub> ah nice
<cub> gotta go for a while, our garden looks like a jungle...
<zequence> cub: Can't you pay the neighbors kid to sort it out?
<smartboyhw> zequence, +1
<cub> I'm a cheap bastard. I mean I even use free software. ;)
<smartboyhw> cub, .........
<smartboyhw> cub, using free software doesn't mean one is rich or not.
<smartboyhw> But really, on this business tell your neighbour's kid to do it is better than doing it yourself:P
#ubuntustudio-devel 2013-08-02
<OvenWerks> micahg: Interesting, the launchpad bazar branch diff listing picked up an error lintian missed.
<OvenWerks> It was good to learn how to make man pages.
<OvenWerks> micahg: ok, ubuntustudio-installer at https://code.launchpad.net/~ubuntustudio-dev/ubuntustudio/ubuntustudio-installer should be ready this time.
<OvenWerks> (unless adding a newline to the end of the desktop file makes lintian complain)
<OvenWerks> micahg: I understand it may be next week before you get to it.
<OvenWerks> let me know when I should remind you.
<micahg> OvenWerks: ok, will try to take a look sat night, but might not be until Monday
<OvenWerks> micahg: no problem. I will be gone for the weekend anyway. We all have monday off in this neck of the woods (BC). SO if you need to talk to me it may be monday night or tuesday.
<micahg> ok, thanks for working on the lintian warnings
<cub> I can't remember from my last installation, but is Libre Office not included in the default US installation?
<smartboyhw> cub, NO.
<smartboyhw> And seriously, the user can just simply run "sudo apt-get install libreoffice"
<cub> aha, do you know why?
<cub> Sure
<smartboyhw> cub, I forgotten
<cub> I was just surprised
<smartboyhw> cub, we do have a reason. But ask zequence for that.
<cub> I suppose it could be since we pull from Xubuntu
<zequence> Yes, it's mostly due to Xubuntu, and I don't think we ever included it before either
<smartboyhw> So zequence should we include it?
<zequence> smartboyhw: We can decide later, I think. We're currently looking at becoming DE agnostics, and Libre Office would need to be a part of the publishing workflow
<zequence> I do feel it belongs there though
<smartboyhw> zequence, :)
<smartboyhw> Maybe u can reply to the user on the mailing list then
<smartboyhw> And tell him we might include it
<cub> It's not really Publishing though?
<smartboyhw> cub, it is (to be honest)
<cub> perhaps writer and impress, but not draw, base or calc. IMHO
<smartboyhw> cub, well we can divide these using the brilliant menu that OvenWerks works on:P
<cub> To me it's an office suit which might or might not have anything to do with a studio installation
<smartboyhw> cub, don't tell me a musician doesn't need a spreadsheet to keep track of all his daily life expenses:P
<cub> but maybe not on his recording system?
<cub> I install it on every machine I have, sure. But I think it could be confusing moving it to the publishing (or other US menus) when it usually ends up in the Office menu
<cub> Then again LibreOffice Draw in 12.04 ends up in both Office and the US Graphics menu.
<smartboyhw> cub, draw will be in graphics
<smartboyhw> You will want LibreOffice for maybe a draft for publishing?
<zequence> cub: That's true. The whole suite is not related to publishing
<cub> Perhaps. I'm not working with publishing anymore. But when we did we used the publishing tools for drafts as well. But the office suits were needed because customer could send stuff in all kinds of documents.
<smartboyhw> zequence, I managed to get my PPA oversized :O
<smartboyhw> main PPA
<zequence> smartboyhw: you should buy a bigger size t-shirt for it
<smartboyhw> zequence, I asked to increase it:P
<smartboyhw> But why a T-shirt?!
<zequence> otherwise, the belly button will show
<smartboyhw> zequence, LOL LOL
<smartboyhw> bad joke
<smartboyhw> Wow, we have somebody strongly objecting to LibreOffice here.
<smartboyhw> zequence, hmm Ralf suggested Abiword (used in Xubuntu)....
<cub> Abiword is what Xubuntu ships with so... I don't like it myself but that's only me.
 * smartboyhw doesn't also, been using LibreOffice
<zequence> If we go DE agnostic, we ship with what Xubuntu has, but we could see about blocking some applications that we don't want to have since we already provide them
<zequence> so, if we choose to go with Libre Office Writer, we could block Abiword, and the same on other DEs, where they have something similar. What does Kubuntu use?
<smartboyhw> zequence, libreoffice for kubuntu
<cub> I think Steve had some good points in the email discussion
<zequence> I think his points are a bit vague though
<smartboyhw> Well: 
<smartboyhw> I particularly object when I try to remove a package & Ubuntu insists on removing the entire windows manager.
<zequence> Not seeing any actual facts there, only what he wishes for
<smartboyhw> ^ Uh hum
<cub> to have libreoffice and other similar apps in an extra-package
<smartboyhw> We can have a full discussion :P
<smartboyhw> Final decision will be made by zequence ofc:)
<cub> and I agree, I hate when I want to remove something and it says "will remove everything"
<smartboyhw> You know, I got attacked when I proposed to remove PPC image builds for Kubuntu:P
<cub> Still, it's quite easy to install libreoffice manually after you have installed
<zequence> cub: If that happens, and it's a bad thing, then it might be a bug
<cub> hey, I
<cub> 'm actually going to install a PPC computer today :D
<zequence> I have an old iBook PPC, but use Debian on it
<zequence> works great, apart from lack of GPU support for 3D (I think)
<cub> I downloaded Debian xfce for ppc yesterday. Found my old imac in storage with Mandrake 9.1 installed.
<smartboyhw> You know, Ubuntu decided to remove PPC Desktop images
<smartboyhw> So I proposed it
<smartboyhw> Next thing, Xubuntu steps in (including micahg) and say that they want PPC images back
<smartboyhw> MEH
<cub> they are old, you can't support everything forever
<smartboyhw> I'm sorry, I'm absolutely hatred of PPC.
<smartboyhw> Takes long to build
<smartboyhw> And FTBFS.
<cub> bah, the first imacs are icons! :D
<smartboyhw> And really, i386, armhf and amd64 are modern ones.
<smartboyhw> This? 10 years ago.
<zequence> I had a jack bug on PPC, and the devs told me - you must be the last one using PPC. There's little interest to fix those bugs. 
<zequence> As long as they are used, there's a reason for supporting them
<smartboyhw> BAH
<smartboyhw> No.
<zequence> i386 is not very modern though. i686 is even getting old
<zequence> smartboyhw: Have you ever seen a i386 machine?
<smartboyhw> zequence, but i386 is still actively developed in Atom and for smartphones
<smartboyhw> zequence, no.
<zequence> smartboyhw: i386 was used before you were born
<smartboyhw> well sure, it should be called i686 now...
<smartboyhw> Not i386 actually
<zequence> not sure if you can use everything i386 on a i386 machine, but I'm sure there's a reason that label is still used. 
<smartboyhw> zequence, uh, even the kernel doesn't support i386 now...
<smartboyhw> It's just historical
<smartboyhw> zequence, http://noskcaj10.wordpress.com/2013/08/02/announcing-the-testdrive-hackfest/ and http://smartboyhwubuntu.wordpress.com/2013/08/02/testdrive-hackfest/
<smartboyhw> (Not a really safe hackfest since it's run by two 14-15 year olds:P)
<micahg> smartboyhw: with modern ppc hardware, building is fast
<OvenWerks> smartboyhw: zequence there is already an extra SW menu item that includes libreoffice.
<zequence> OvenWerks: SW menu?
<zequence> ..item
<OvenWerks> Ya, in the office menu there is an item that will install lireoffice
<smartboyhw> OvenWerks, oh good
<zequence> The question here is if we want to include Libre Office, partly, or as a whole to our workfflows
<zequence> which would put it on the live DVD
<smartboyhw> partly
<OvenWerks> I would suggest that when/if we get studio to a place where the user can choose only the workflows they want at install time, then add libreoffice to the workflow that wants it.
<zequence> It would end up on the live DVD nevertheless
<zequence> as it includes all our worfklows
<OvenWerks> Though I suppose even on a "tiny" 1/2 TB hard drive an office suite doesn't take much room...
<OvenWerks> Does anyone actually use DVDs?
<OvenWerks> :)
<zequence> It's a live DVD image
<zequence> Yes, I do believe a lot of people use them
<zequence> I sometimes find it most simple, as one of my quite new PCs doesn't support booting from usb stick
<OvenWerks> From the #ubuntustudio channel it seems 50/50.
<zequence> Most newbies will just burn a DVD
<zequence> The question of whether or not people use DVDs doesn't seem important for the choice of Libre Office
<zequence> and if we include it in our workflows, it will end up on the live image
<zequence> the live image is quite usable, as it is
<OvenWerks> Yes. I think there will be room
<zequence> We have plenty of room after all
<zequence> 4.7GB is max. We don't need to aim for max, as it just makes things slower
<OvenWerks> Besides even if we don't add any new software, things grow.
<zequence> I'll fix the script for choosing workflows before 13.10. And that'll make installation faster, so size will matter less
<smartboyhw> zequence, yeah!
<zequence> I'll probably have plenty of time during DebConf. I won't be participating in all that much probably
<smartboyhw> zequence, one question: When will madeinkobaia come back?
<smartboyhw> I think it's time we start Artwork contests and such
<zequence> He's back now
<smartboyhw> zequence, \o/
<zequence> He'll be focusing on the next wallpaper mostly
<smartboyhw> Lubuntu started theirs already:)
<smartboyhw> I mean, aren't we planning for a contest or something?
<zequence> Don't know if we'll have a contest for the default wallpaper. Probably we'll just ask for contributions that we add
<zequence> Don't think so
<zequence> We'll be pushing towards a more unified artwork experience, and it'll be simpler if madeinkabaia works on the default wallpaper, not that he absolutely needs to
<zequence> He's also working on Mish's icons
<zequence> I did some work on them myself
<OvenWerks> have they been moved to the menu package yet?
<smartboyhw> zequence, ofc default is from madeinkobaia
<smartboyhw> I mean we include others..
<smartboyhw> :)
<smartboyhw> Some of them in our G+ community are gorgeous, really:)
<zequence> OvenWerks: No, me and madeinkobaia feel they need a bit more work. We'll try to get them done as soon as possible
<OvenWerks> NP
<zequence> I did some work on the colors, and they work quite nicely now
<zequence> Some of the icons could be improved a bit, visually, such as the brush
<OvenWerks> -installer shold get released sometime next week.
<OvenWerks> Then I can work on changing the extra SW items over to use that.
<zequence> OvenWerks: Ah, that's why you want the menu to depend on the installer
<OvenWerks> yes
<OvenWerks> xubuntu has been looking at LSC to replace USC
<zequence> Probably the right choice, though I've had some problems with LSC myself
<zequence> hope it works well
<OvenWerks> I don't know if it is a final decision, just looking
 * OvenWerks is off to work.
<zequence> I got the Ubuntu Studio t-shirt today, and the mug is probably here already as well
<zequence> I'll take a picture once I get the chance
<zequence> the quality of the T-shirt is good, but I think we should offer a cheaper alternative too
<smartboyhw> zequence, oh really?
<smartboyhw> SHOW US
<zequence> smartboyhw: I'll take a picture once I get a chance
<smartboyhw> zequence, great.
<smartboyhw> I'll be starting my process to apply for Kubuntu Developer BTW.
<smartboyhw> :P
<smartboyhw> See if I can be one of the youngest developers ever.
<zequence> smartboyhw: You don't need to be in a team to be that. Just make sure to develop something
<smartboyhw> zequence, I did package a LOT
<smartboyhw> And I got the big boss to say "go for it" :P
<zequence> packaging, if not from scratch is not so much development
<zequence> just maintenance
<smartboyhw> zequence, heh, don't think that "maintenance" is easy..........
<zequence> If you make changes to the packages, that would be development
<zequence> if you just update them, that is maintenance
<smartboyhw> zequence, and changes:)
<zequence> I'm just making a point smartboyhw 
<smartboyhw> I think I did one package from scratch
<smartboyhw> Forgotten which
<zequence> In Ubuntu Studio, we don't do a lot of maintenance really
<zequence> packaging overall, we don't do much
<zequence> what we need is development work
<zequence> improving things
<zequence> having ideas, and making something out of them
<zequence> not just doing what someone else tells you to do
<zequence> see the difference?
<zequence> being on a team is certainly something to be proud of
<zequence> and maintenance is a very important job
<zequence> but, you won't be a developer just by being on a team
<zequence> having your own ideas requires experience
<smartboyhw> zequence, ofc la
<zequence> and maintenance will surely lead to that
<zequence> takes years
<zequence> smartboyhw: I'm not familiar with that abbreviation
<smartboyhw> zequence, of course:
<smartboyhw> :)
<smartboyhw> LOL
<zequence> smartboyhw: Just look at Len. He's not even a member of Ubuntu, and he's doing most of the development work for Ubuntu Studio
<zequence> Or, at least in code, right now
<zequence> He's not worried about teams. He cares about the work
<smartboyhw> Nobody says I don't...
<smartboyhw> The problem is I'm still not confident in code
<zequence> You don't need to code to develop
<zequence> you just need to have ideas, and work at realizing them
<zequence> preferably, the ideas are of use for more than just yourself
<smartboyhw> zequence, sure, it's like "I have ideas, I don't have confidence in them", really
<smartboyhw> I'm sort of a realistic person when it comes to ideas
<smartboyhw> For example, I want to write some apps myself for Ubuntu Touch
<smartboyhw> Like a Planet Ubuntu app
<smartboyhw> But I just don't know the code
<smartboyhw> or howto code
<smartboyhw> My ideas involve code
<smartboyhw> Becuase I'm rather application-wise minded
<zequence> It will come. Don't you study programming at all?
<smartboyhw> zequence, I do.
<smartboyhw> Very beginner.
<smartboyhw> I don't even have time to study more deeper
<zequence> Takes time, yeah
<zequence> I have to go. See you around smartboyhw 
<smartboyhw> zequence, see ya
<holstein> !10.04
<ubottu> Ubuntu 10.04 LTS (Lucid Lynx) was the twelfth release of Ubuntu.  Desktop support ended May 9 2013. Server support continues. See http://ubottu.com/y/lucid for more details.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2013-08-03
<knome> hello people :) any developers around?
 * smartboyhw points at zequence and OvenWerks still:P
<knome> i know who they are, just asking if they are *around*
<knome> but you'll do good as well
<knome> all the xfce testing stuff is now under xubuntu desktop
<knome> if you don't necessarily want to run your own tests, you should point your testers to report the xfce tests under our product
<knome> i know you're also trying to go DE-agnostic, so this might be more or less meaningless information for you
<zequence> knome: ack
<knome> zequence, ta :)
<smartboyhw> Good evening zequence:)
<zequence> We should actually start doing multimedia application testing now, since debian freeze is in effect
<zequence> I'll post something about it on the list
<smartboyhw> zequence, +1
<len_away> knome: Thanks for the help.
 * len_away is camping, but there is a computer in the office :)
<knome> len_away, heh, np :)
<len_away> knome: anything less we can worry about is nice.
<knome> sure
<knome> if you need help with the tracker, feel free to ping me as well
<len_away> Yup... back to play now, see you all later.
<madeinkobaia> For those who're on board, hi : )
#ubuntustudio-devel 2013-08-04
<smartboyhw> zequence, we have a whole bunch of testcases in https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual-tests/+bugs?field.tag=ubuntu-studio
<smartboyhw> 58....
<smartboyhw> Hey madeinkobaia 
<smartboyhw> Nice to see you back!
<madeinkobaia> Hi smartboyhw :)
<madeinkobaia> Thanks for the welcome !
<smartboyhw> madeinkobaia, any nice things for me to see?
<madeinkobaia> smartboyhw: nothing recent, the last artwork made is the social network banner.
<madeinkobaia> smartboyhw: Also our webshop start to be ready. Did you visit it ?
<smartboyhw> madeinkobaia, ouch, I thought you are working on our 13.10 default wallpaper already. Webshop? Where?
<madeinkobaia> http://ubuntustudio.spreadshirt.fr/
<smartboyhw> Why did NOBODY tell me!?
<smartboyhw> Holy!? 20 euros!?
<madeinkobaia> I think it is not finished that's why. The price seems expensive indeed.
<smartboyhw> zequence, I want a price slim-down....
<madeinkobaia> smartboyhw: I think ttoine is the best person for speak about his / this project. 
<smartboyhw> madeinkobaia, OK.
<smartboyhw> Let me ask about price....
<madeinkobaia> smartboyhw: Otherwise what do you think about of the t-shirt designs ?
<zequence> dexit
<Guest9653> hi, I would like to contribute to ubuntu studio
<millerthegorilla> Apart from the mailing list is there information about contributing anywhere else?
<zequence> millerthegorilla: http://ubuntustudio.org/contribute/
<zequence> millerthegorilla: You being here is a good start
<zequence> what do you think you would like to contribute with?
<millerthegorilla> thanks, I've just been to that page.  I don't know.
<millerthegorilla> I'm a coder and a musician, and can patch and compile a kernel
<zequence> millerthegorilla: Have you done any Debian packaging before?
<millerthegorilla> No I haven't but I'm keen to learn
<millerthegorilla> I wouldn't mind contributing to the alsa stuff along the lines of kxstudio's cadence
<millerthegorilla> *jack
<zequence> millerthegorilla: This is a good place to start https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/SetupDeveloperEnvironment
<zequence> millerthegorilla: Have you done any python coding?
<millerthegorilla> yh, a reasonable amount, I've used the RAD design gtk systems as well.
<zequence> millerthegorilla: Actually, before you do that, you might want to install saucy
<millerthegorilla> when is saucy planned for release?
<zequence> October
<zequence> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/DevelopmentReleaseSchedule
<zequence> Feature freeze is coming up at Aug 22
<zequence> That means we need to have uploaded all our changes before then
<millerthegorilla> ok, I should be able to get a grip of the workflow in time for the next version
<zequence> We need to do a bit of work on ubuntustudio-controls before feature freeze
<zequence> if you like, you could assist in that
<zequence> i'm the project lead, btw
<zequence> OvenWerks is our most busy dev
<millerthegorilla> gr8, not seen the project before.  got a link?
<zequence> Right now, there's no new version anywhere
<zequence> I'll need to set it up
<zequence> been delaying it for far too long
<zequence> either we fix it so it has some use, or we remove the package from the archive
<zequence> It's job will be primarily to adjust system settings
<zequence> it could also be developed into a jack control application
<millerthegorilla> have you seen kxstudio?
<zequence> I have some code laying around, just need to make it useful
<millerthegorilla> *used
<zequence> yes, and I know falktx
<millerthegorilla> sounds sorta like cadence
<zequence> well, he got some ideas from us to that, and it's a good start, but what I have in mind is something bit different
<millerthegorilla> I strip out pulse and install cadence on my ubu studio
<millerthegorilla> what did you have in mind?
<zequence> I'll need to go to sleep now
<millerthegorilla> ok. cya.
<zequence> Will put up some code later this week
<millerthegorilla> where?
<zequence> will be attending DebConf and probably I'll be doing some work during that time
<millerthegorilla> on the mail list?
<zequence> We use launchpad projects, and bzr branches
<millerthegorilla> ok.  got a link?
<zequence> https://launchpad.net/ubuntustudio-project
<millerthegorilla> thanks, gdnight.
<zequence> You can find most of what you need to know here https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/DeveloperDocumentation
<zequence> Or, at least, what is written down so far
<zequence> millerthegorilla: See you around
#ubuntustudio-devel 2014-07-28
<zequence> OvenWerks: I've been trying to figure out why ubuntustudio-meta is not promoted to the release pocket. According to https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ProposedMigration, ubuntustudio-audio -video (and the two empty metas that we will remove) are uninstallable
<zequence> ..so trying to install to see what happens
<zequence> (from -proposed, that is)
<zequence> Oh, here are the results of the proposed-migration test http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-archive/proposed-migration/update_output.txt
<zequence> Ok, installation worked. Going to see about getting it promoted manually
<zequence> Seems like a yet not promoted version of libav is set as a depend for ubuntustudio-meta to be promoted
<zequence> If I'm reading it right
<zequence> libav has been stuck in -proposed for a week
<zequence> ubuntustudio-meta for 11 days
<zequence> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-archive/proposed-migration/update_excuses.html#ubuntustudio-meta
<zequence> It's moving along though, so I wouldn't worry
#ubuntustudio-devel 2014-07-29
<OvenWerks> zequence: I think libav has been redone and all the extras have been rolled into one (55), however, now all the apps that depend on libav-anything have to be repackaged and moved to the wild... until that happens we have no ISO or meta.
<OvenWerks> zequence: on another topic totally... there are a lot of new apps just starting to emerge for live video production. I would guess about 10 years ago computer hardware caught up with audio recording and live work and now the same seems to be happening for video.
<OvenWerks> our video selection is almost all editting packages. We have only lives as a live video application. However, many of the new apps are not packaged yet, but we should be watching for them as they do. It would be nice to see more included for 16.04
<OvenWerks> I think video will be where the minimal ISO will shine. In fact adding a headless runlevel may be useful too. Some video applications expect to be run on more than one computer. For example dvswitch is set up client server style.
<OvenWerks> Each camera is expected to be connected to a (possibly headless) client computer because cat5 runs can be much longer than USB/FireWire. Then there is a server that does the switching of streams. I think the lowlatency kernel would be helpful for livevideo too.
<OvenWerks> On the other hand, Video editting may bennefit from a generic kernel set to performance complete with hyperthreading if available. Pro video editting machines use multi-graphic-core cards (like video cards with no outputs just the GPU).
<OvenWerks> We could really use some hard core video guys.
<zequence> OvenWerks: The CD size ISO has been defined to have two purposes: 1) Install Ubuntu Studio 2) simple system check (audio card, video card, etc)
<zequence> I had the idea to create several smaller ISOs for each workflow, and that would probably be appreciated, but it's too much work for very little gain
<zequence> The DVD is the tool and the showcase as before
<OvenWerks> zequence: I understand your reasons for the lite ISO. I am just pointing out there are others. A lot of the realtime video stuff is new/experimental enough that the user is expected to be part sysadmin to use it. I expect it could be used headless by running it at the login screen anyway. The fact that it allows specific application installation means only what is needed can be loaded. And it comes with the lowlatency kernel by default.
<OvenWerks> The definition of UbuntuStudio has changed from a full install to a chosen install which is what makes these things possible. The needed extra SW could probably all still fit on a USB stick so the client computer could run diskless. It may be designed for simple install/testing, but there will be other possibilities.
<zequence> OvenWerks: I'll comment tommorow. I'm keeping someone up here :)
<OvenWerks> also... for later comment linux 3.16 now has an alsa firewire stack included.
<zequence> Cool
#ubuntustudio-devel 2014-07-31
<OvenWerks> zequence: if you have ul rights, ubuntustudio-installer is waiting to go up. It fixes some things.
<OvenWerks> Shows only available applications that have not been installed
<OvenWerks> shows much more info about the install process
<OvenWerks> reacts properly to apt-get errors rather than acting like everything is OK.
<OvenWerks> I don't think I will do anymore work on it as the next step is to roll the bits from ubiquity plugin into it. That would be much better.
<OvenWerks> But if we don't have time to do that, the fixes in the waiting upload are worth while.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2014-08-01
<zequence> OvenWerks: Alright
<zequence> OvenWerks: any chance you could make the window resizable, so that buttons and stuff follow the window size?
<zequence> Or, would you rather the window has a fixed size? But, then, lock the possibility to resize the window at all.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2014-08-02
<OvenWerks> zequence: I will have a look. I have to set up my launchpad access again... copy my keys and stuff over from backup so I can use Launch pad again.
<OvenWerks> Thankyou for testing, I didn't think of that.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2015-07-27
<OvenWerks> Just updated my 15.10 install. It actually did a distro upgrade... that is a lot has happened.
<OvenWerks> I think I originally installed 15.10 soon after the first changes, so it was pretty close to 15.04.
<OvenWerks> The login screen is fixed! \o/
<OvenWerks> My settings for dual screens was not kept, I had to redo it.
<OvenWerks> It went back to "mirror".
<OvenWerks> I turned mirror off... the two monitors were on the wrong side, so I swapped them... they were still on the wrong side.
<OvenWerks> Second swap worked.
<OvenWerks> I think this is X changing the monitor numbers. I think X tends to auto change whatever monitor is on the left to primary.
<OvenWerks> Or maybe not any more... I think x or xfce changed the monitor numbers in 15.04 and doesn't now. Something odd anyway. But it works ok once set.
<OvenWerks> We really need to get rid of arandr now that Display works for everything.
<OvenWerks> Having two display settings apps is confusing. It was just the only choice when we first added it and the need for it was gone the very next release.
<OvenWerks> Ardour4 is correctly labled. Should be updated to 4.1. 4.2 is almost out. Ardour seems to be going through a lot of development. The gui is going to change 4.2 or 4.3.
<OvenWerks> Opps I have got something wrong, or the master menu config has changed for xfce. Our doc menu items appear in system as well as our own sub.
<OvenWerks> There is a calligra item in office that fails/shouldn't be there. Comes with krita?
<OvenWerks> I can make it not show, but if someone then installs calligra in studio they would be missing a menu item. I think it is a bug in packaging that there is a menu item (desktop file) installed for an app that is not installed.
<OvenWerks> There is no reason (looking at all the menu files) why the category "Documentation" should end up in the System menu.
<OvenWerks> We may have to exclude it.
<OvenWerks> As an aside: the stock KDE and gnome menu files are as bad or worse than ours for complexity and special cases.
<OvenWerks> The gnome menu spec has changed a lot since 14.04 where it was very basic.
<OvenWerks> KDE has always been the odd one out though it has changed a lot too.
<OvenWerks> I think in both cases, the movement away from using menus has given feedback that those who still do use menus like them very much and would like to see improvements with them rather than abandoning them.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2015-07-29
<pikurasa> (enjoying Ubuntu Studio right now. Feeling grateful.) Thanks team! 
<pikurasa> That is it. Gotta' go.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2015-07-30
<OvenWerks> zequence: through normal sw updates on 1404, I have over 10 kernels installed. The generic kernel for 1404 sets most of them for autoremove and my server has only two or three. What do we need to do with lowlatency so autoremove will get rid of some of these old kernels?
#ubuntustudio-devel 2015-07-31
<zequence> OvenWerks: I haven't looked at the source for that, but perhaps there is a simple post install script?
#ubuntustudio-devel 2015-08-01
<OvenWerks> zequence: I think it may even just be depends or which package is installed.
<OvenWerks> linux-lowlatency should depend on the right image and once it no longer depends on an image, autoremove should see it as no longer a dependecy.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2016-08-01
<zequence> sakrecoer: The repo you linked to is the current website theme, so not the one in development
<zequence> Think all repos will eventually move to git, so that is why I made the trunk a git repo
<zequence> First, install git: sudo apt-get install git
<zequence> Then, get the repo: git clone https://git.launchpad.net/ubuntustudio-website
<zequence> do your changes, add them with: git add .
<zequence> Then, commit: git commit
<zequence> And, finally, push: git push origin master
#ubuntustudio-devel 2016-08-02
<sakrecoer> thanks zequence ! so i can just go on and create an 'asset' folder in there?
<sakrecoer> 'assests' even :)
<sakrecoer> seems all changes in the seed are accomplished, except for the wacom- and studio-controls.. 
<sakrecoer> maybe you can go on and upload, zequence ? so we can test the new packages, zequence ?
<sakrecoer> sorry, typing from phone, forgot i aledÃÂ¤ady typed your name
<sakrecoer> i will be very much offline until friday guys.. sorry about that.. but i will check in sporadicaly everyday.
<zequence> sakrecoer: I will upload, but I need to fix a Ubuntu dev system first. Seems when I do it from Debian (even when it is just about uploading a few files) it raises some eyebrows
<zequence> And, that also explains how little I know about why that matters!
<zequence> Probably very little, but for some - a lot more than it does for me!
#ubuntustudio-devel 2016-08-03
<sakrecoer> what would happen if no one test runs the 14.04.5 release?
<zequence> Rosco2: Seems the ISOs are rebuilding. Once finished, I could help with testing. At least on virtual machine.
<zequence> Going zsync the old ones, to save some time when the new ones arrive.
<Rosco2> snap - exactly the same here
<Rosco2> can't do real hardware as I had hard disk failure before the hols
<Rosco2> My spare disks are all in use :-)
<zequence> Actually, I could even do hardware. I have an old laptop that I never use.
<Rosco2> I will probably at least do a live CD on the laptop
<Rosco2> live session
<Rosco2> Still zsyncing the old ISOs. Based on other flavours, the new image will pop up soon
 * Rosco2 goes to eat something
<zequence> Same here. zsyncs almost done.
<zequence> Been a few hours now..
<Rosco2> Yeah - US, EdUbubt & Desktop still building
<Rosco2> Still downloading the old 386 ISO anyway - didn't have that for trusty for some reason
<zequence> Rosco2: 32 bits is available. If you want to do that, I can wait for the 64bit and do that.
<zequence> Oh, both are done.
<zequence> http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/ubuntustudio/trusty/dvd/20160803/
<zequence> The rebuild was a pretty quick now.
<zequence> xsyncing the amd64 one
<zequence> zsyncing*
<Rosco2> launchpad & iso tracker were unavailable for 15 minutes back
<zequence> Ah, no I see that the 64bit build is the same as before.
<zequence> So, only the 32bit is new
<Rosco2> But it is still building according to launchpad Livefs page
<Rosco2> Strange
<zequence> Perhaps it is doing the auto testing
<zequence> Though, the 32bit is in current now
<zequence> http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/ubuntustudio/trusty/dvd/current/
<Rosco2> zsyncing 386 now
<Rosco2> 386 full install started
<zequence> Ok, I'll do the next one.
<zequence> ..if it ever completes. The build seems to have failed
<zequence> I might be able to do the testing tomorrow at work.
<krytarik> zequence: That was just because it was cancelled though.
<Rosco2> iso tracker and launchpad unavailable here again
<Rosco2> Makes it hard to keep track onm the building status!
<krytarik> Rosco2: Both work here.
<Rosco2> Yeah - was just able to submit first pass result just then
<zequence> krytarik: Yes, seems so.
<Rosco2> Seems to be just my laptop failing to find the server
<zequence> I have that kind of problems occasionally, but not very often. Some domain names don't work.
<zequence> No idea where the problem is, but I guess something between the client and the server.
<zequence> Just a couple of weeks ago there were some disturbances, periodically. Every 5 min or so.
<zequence> But, for all domains
<zequence> Think it was the first time for over a year of perfect service
<Rosco2> Everything slow on the network for the laptop. Still zsyncing a second 386 ISO!
<zequence> (except for the occasional problem at the host/server)
<Rosco2> Just went 95%
<zequence> Frustrating. Becoming a long day, this.
<Rosco2> switching IRC to the other machine to do 386 live session on the laptop
<Rosco2> All good with 386 for me
<Rosco2> 64bit build seems to have moved on to the squashfs preparation
<Rosco2> But says it may take a while :-)
<zequence> Well, I might skip them today, since they are still not ready.
<zequence> But, I will do the test tomorrow. Probably as early as I'm able.
<zequence> Before lunch
<Rosco2> Yeah - I am shattered
<Rosco2> I might look in in the morning and at least do a zsync
<Rosco2> Then do a quick test as soon as I get home
<Rosco2> after wor
<Rosco2> k
<Rosco2> See I am tired!
<zequence> Haha
<zequence> Well, if you haven't heard of me by lunch time, I might have missed my chance. But, really I will try to do the test first thing. The work I do leaves some opportunity for that.
<Rosco2> Thanks for that
<zequence> Sleep well!
<Rosco2> It is good to have tried 64 bit in at least two machines I think
<Rosco2> You too
#ubuntustudio-devel 2016-08-04
<zequence> Installing 64bit
<zequence> All done, and ready for release.
<OvenWerks> with regard to bug  1585007. I thought we were removing lv2rack. What was the replacement?
<ubottu> bug 1585007 in Ubuntu Studio "gxtuner hangs lv2rack" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1585007
<OvenWerks> I have confirmed the above bug. Jalv is not a nice replacement to use as it must be started from CLI. It could be used from a desktop file so long as the target plugin is included.
<OvenWerks> If someone would like to learn python  ;) and design some glue using jalv.qt or jalv.gtk and lv2ls to provide a menu to load a plugin... that would be wonderful.
<OvenWerks> calf rack does load lv2s... but only calf ones. Just found out the rack ears can be turned off with calf rack and then affects other calf hosts as well.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2016-08-05
<sakrecoer> OvenWerks: i don't remember there was any conclusion about lv2rack...
<sakrecoer> i'd love to learn python, but i haven't found a way in to it yet...
<sakrecoer> OvenWerks: are you offering assistance in leanring it? :p i'd be delighted to become your student :)
<autumna> sakrecoer: how much programming have you done in past?
<autumna> in any language?
<autumna> or did you do at all?
<sakrecoer> not veyr much...  some basic and some passcal :D
<sakrecoer> i reckon JS and html5 doesn't really count :D
<autumna> well
<sakrecoer> php maybe? but yeah.. just a little...
<autumna> what I mean is.. more.. do you know formal concepts of cs which.. well
<autumna> I was going to recommend: https://codecombat.com/ but that might be too beginner for you
<sakrecoer> yeah, i think so :)
<autumna> oh well
<sakrecoer> oh, beginner is good :)
<autumna> this is REALLY beginner, (learning programming concepts by gaming, rather than focus on syntax, python is one of their languages).
<autumna> warning through: its VERY addictive
<sakrecoer> nice :)
<sakrecoer> thank you
<autumna> :)
<autumna> I hope you still thank me 3 days from now
<autumna> :D
<sakrecoer> cfhowlett: do you think we should set up that contest for audio jingle to use in videotutorials? or should we keep it internal?
<cfhowlett> rather hoped we could use the old ubuntustudio tunes!  the login / logout are just the right length for a title/intro splash
<sakrecoer> cfhowlett: that is a good idea :)
<sakrecoer> can't remember how they sound tho...
<cfhowlett> I have them in storage ... let me search
<sakrecoer> where can i find the files?
<sakrecoer> cool thank you cfhowlett :)
<cfhowlett> ubuntustudio-sounds if still maintained.  looking
<zequence> ubuntustudio-sounds was removed from the archive before the release of 16.04
<zequence> That, and the screensaver package. None of them were used - by us anyway.
<sakrecoer> autumna: have you put the feature tour text on the staging site?
<autumna> no I didn't *cringes*
<autumna> do you need me to put it up now?
<sakrecoer> if you can... :) 
<autumna> give me 10 minutes and I'll get the stuff in there if you haven't already
<autumna> ok going to upload the images first
<autumna> actually nevermind, putting in content first :)
<autumna> ok
<autumna> feature test is adjusted to put in the content in. background images are still missing through
#ubuntustudio-devel 2016-08-06
<zequence> Doing yet another mixdown on ardour which requires me to shut down pulseaudio in order to complete it.
<zequence> One could hardly think one is living in the 2010's
<zequence> It's actually a pretty bad problem.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2016-08-07
<OvenWerks> zequence: does pulse see any other (even unused) audio interface?
<FMan> yay, I've had my download mirrors online for almost 3 months and I can keep them up until at least the end of this month
<autumna> sakrecoer: do you have the white icons you used next to the feature-tour category titles somewhere as images?
<zequence> OvenWerks: It's the bridge causing it
<zequence> I enable pulse manually on my studio machine, but need to shut it down each time I do a mixdown.
<OvenWerks> zequence: I have generally found that problem disapears if jack is the only AI pulse can see. If you open pavucontrol and go to the Configuration Tab. If it shows any audio cards... they should be set to "Off" even if they are not being used and that should (it does here) fix that problem.
<sakrecoer> autumna: :O the home page :') <3
<sakrecoer> *HUUUUG*
<autumna> hi zequence hhehehe
<autumna> ahahaha
<autumna> leftover from earlier, I need to remember to hit the enter button
<autumna> hi sakrecoer
<autumna> btw ignore the state of the discover page
<autumna> severe bug
 * autumna is fixing the said bug
<sakrecoer> ok, krytarik made some good workin on it last night (discover page)
<sakrecoer> oh. but.... <3 <3 <3 <3
 * sakrecoer sheds 7 tears of joy, halts the 8th to save it for final state :D
<autumna> he did, but I am wondering if the unicode character he added is causing this bug
<autumna> *might not be
<autumna> hehe
<autumna> also fixed all the fonts
<autumna> well will have to refix the fonts on discover page but eh
<autumna> sakrecoer: do you have the white icons?
<autumna> the one you used on your mockup?
<autumna> I don't have them on the website
<sakrecoer> i'm looking for them :)
<autumna> err website zip you gave to me
<autumna> :)
<autumna> thanks ,3
<autumna> <3*
<sakrecoer> i think they are in the tar ball, except in color...
<sakrecoer> yes, they should be there... but i'm not sure, let me look...
<autumna> I couldn't see them
<autumna> if you do find them let me know of the filename?
<autumna> ok it is official, the upward arrow character is breaking the WP in spectacular ways
<sakrecoer> :(
<autumna> ...and now it doesn't
<autumna> what on earth?
<sakrecoer> its not in the zip (--.) brb
<autumna> k
<sakrecoer> autumna: krytarik is a king of text formatting, maybe you should focus on the images, and he can format the text?... its just a suggestion of course...
<autumna> its not an issue of text barfing
<sakrecoer> ok, i don't want to cut you in your flow of course :)
<autumna> somehow the text seeps into the css the live composer UI is using, and breaking everything
<autumna> I've been at fixing this for past *checks clock* 3 hours
<sakrecoer> you can do it autumna ! *power-transmissionÃ*
<sakrecoer> i mentally try to run ./relax.sh in my wet-ware mainframes when it happens to me
<autumna> kryten, sakrecoer: for context and hilarity http://www.ubuntustudio.zequence.net/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/live-composer-bug.png
<autumna> check the text under border-width
<sakrecoer> (krytarik teached me to, actualy)
<autumna> hehe
<sakrecoer> autumna: here are the icons: http://sakrecoer.com/ubuntustudio/icons_white_svg.tar.gz
<sakrecoer> (svg)
<autumna> thanks!!
<autumna> sakrecoer, kryten: http://www.ubuntustudio.zequence.net/feature-test/
<sakrecoer> \o/
<autumna> kryten you are more than welcome to try to plug the arrows back in there. I don't think I have courage left to try
<autumna> :D
<sakrecoer> *hug*
<autumna> ok icons also on front page
<sakrecoer> \(^^,)/ *discomusic gets louder*
<autumna> haha
<sakrecoer> autumna: still missing the icon in audio
<autumna> ok I am off, but feel free to move things around, especially on the "main" card, which is not currently amazing with readability and organization of things, especially on front page
<autumna> HUH?
<sakrecoer> ah.. only on the discover page :)
<sakrecoer> the front page has all icons..
<sakrecoer> as you wrote :D
<sakrecoer> sorry... 
<sakrecoer> enjoy your evening autumna!
<sakrecoer> and thank you!
<autumna> np, thank you and kryten / krytarik for all your work as well! 
<autumna> (btw, sakrecoer fixed the icon)
<sakrecoer> \(^^,)/\(^^,)/\(^^,)/\(^^,)/
<geirdal> Hi
<sakrecoer> geirdal \o/
<sakrecoer> :)
<sakrecoer> welcome back!
<sakrecoer> geirdal: http://www.ubuntustudio.zequence.net/feature-test/
<sakrecoer> ^ it is what i was wondering if you were seeing, geirdal 
<sakrecoer> we are getting there :)
<geirdal> yes ;)
<sakrecoer> too bad i have to log off for today now... :/ but i'm happy to read you! :)
<sakrecoer> hope to see you arround soon! take care until then! <3
<geirdal> Like to see Krita there
<geirdal> ;)
<sakrecoer> g'night y'all!
<geirdal> I meen it is good to see Krita there
#ubuntustudio-devel 2018-07-30
<OvenWerks> eylul: I suppose bzr will no longer get updated at some point and die of bitrot. Eickmeyer agreed with you so I have already changed it to git anyway.
<OvenWerks> As said above, it would be best to use a different file for each service.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2018-07-31
<Eickmeyer> tsimonq2: That issue with Hydrogen is going to be difficult to fix, I can't see that there's any maintainer.
<Eickmeyer> eylul: I'm going to post a blog post starting the wallpaper contest. Should I reveal the new default wallpaper?
<Eickmeyer> My method will be to upload to Imgur with the tag #ubustucontest1810
<Eickmeyer> tsimonq2: Might have to be a git snapshot. Last release was a 1.0 beta in March with 227 commits following. :/
<Eickmeyer> cyphermox: Where are we at with calf? I didn't realize you're not a Debian developer, as calf ultimately needs to get into Debian to replace the version that's there.
<Eickmeyer> (sorry for pinging everyone, just a lot hit me around the same time this morning)
<eylul> Eickmeyer I have no objections to that :)
<eylul> let me know if you need a beta read on the post?
<Eickmeyer> eylul: https://paste.ubuntu.com/p/7B5bDj5TbW/
<Eickmeyer> eylul: Scratch that, added link to details: https://paste.ubuntu.com/p/rNM8DkPYp4/
<Eickmeyer> Also updated the wiki page linked.
<eylul> checking that one
<eylul> ok uhhh
<eylul> I will need to think about how to fix this but overall.. 
<eylul> we are serving the community. we are also grateful for them to contribute. not giving them a chance to, like it is an opportunity
<eylul> I know that's not at all what you meant. :) but.. umm that's how it reads a bit right now? :)
<eylul> and I am not sure there is a reason to link to the new wallpaper on this context. Also, similarly it could be a nice thing to have people vote on a shortlist of people we select?
<eylul> because again we are doing this for the community. we don't curate their work if that makes sense?
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: it looks like -desktop will need some love.
<OvenWerks> hmm that doesn't make sense
<OvenWerks> desktop doesn't configure. There are a lot of other similar errors too for other packages.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2018-08-01
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<Eickmeyer> eylul: Got your edits and fixed. As far as the wallpaper, I have basically a "thumbnail" version in the post, mostly because posts with images linked on social networks tend to get more attention. And, yes, we can figure out a way to get votes in. Before it was done with someone's private page, but that's not very sustainable.
<Eickmeyer> eylul: The reason for the wallpaper reveal is more for inspiration than anything. If you want me to leave that part out, I can.
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: Uh.... -desktop doesn't configure? Yikes... uh... I don't even know where to begin with that one.
<Eickmeyer> Should become first priority since that _literally_ pulls-in everything else.
<Eickmeyer> Everyone: I probably won't be available very much for the next couple days. Major equipment switchover at work, along with a big re-install of some other equipment.
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<eylul> that's... a lot of spam
<eylul> Eickmeyer: the issue about how to do voting is a valid one. as for wallpaper, I think we can announce it, but maybe not with that post? :) mostly it ties to my comments from before. :)
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<eylul> sacrecoer Eickmeyer can we lock the channels to non-registered users while this is dealt with? 
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<Eickmeyer> eylul: Unfortunately, I'm not on the IRC team, looks like Unit193 is working on it. That said, I have applied for membership. I think krytarik can do it, but he's not around right now. :/
<OvenWerks> irc is working on it too. it is pretty widespread
<Eickmeyer> It's bad.
<Eickmeyer> By the way, just discovered this on Tweetdeck: Every account youâre using in TweetDeck will need to agree to the updated Terms and Privacy Policy on Twitter.com. Only people with account passwords can complete the process.
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 * OvenWerks doesn't know "TweetDeck" from <pick your own non-obvious noun>
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#ubuntustudio-devel 2018-08-02
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#ubuntustudio-devel 2018-08-03
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<Eickmeyer> DalekSec: Thank you!!!
<DalekSec> Eickmeyer: Sure, not sure if it's moot again, but will leave it until pinged.
<Eickmeyer> Cool. This bot has been a real menace all over the network.
<DalekSec> Heh, well aware. :)
#ubuntustudio-devel 2018-08-05
<OvenWerks> eylul: It seems to me you said you had a script for setting up your drawing pad. Is this true or do I remember wrong? If so is a copy available?
<eylul> I do, I have a copy of it available in wiki
<eylul> one sec
<eylul> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/FeatureDefinitions/WacomScripts
<eylul> this is quite an old copy of it.. but has all the building parts
<eylul> was there a question in particular you had?
<eylul> basically the 2 things this thing does is a) it maps the tablet to first second or all screen
<eylul> second part is just mapping the keys to whatever keys you want. what key goes where unfortunately is a very tablet specific thing
<eylul> so I started by mapping all buttons xsetwacom sees to letters a onward, and pressing buttons one at a time, to figure out what goes where
<eylul> then filling in what the setup should be. I can try to code something a bit more elaborate if needed. ;)
<OvenWerks> So asign pad to a screen, asign buttons. Is there any configure pen to point on pad vs. point on screen?
<eylul> the screen stuff is that
<OvenWerks> A GUI should list screens and allow choosing a screen or mix there of. A GUI should list available pad buttons and allow for them to be asigned... asigned to what? Is there a standard set of charactors they are asigned to? would it be possible to show what a button can be asigned to and have the user "press/select" that button and set it from there?
<eylul> An ideal GUI would have the following
<eylul> 1) a quick way to swap mapping between each screen available, and stretching across whole screens. (optionally an advanced mode to organize/stretch screens between areas)
<OvenWerks> 1) a drop down with a list of possibilities?
<eylul> 2) a way to touch pen to 4 corners to calibrate a screen based tablet (e.g. cintiq) when it is mapped to a single screen
<OvenWerks> ok
<eylul> or shortcuts. Think of it a bit like ARandR where you can adjust where your screens go
<eylul> but also you can quickly select to mirror. like you can select to say: stretch it on all, use screen 1 use screen 2
<eylul> and honestly
<eylul> have a keybind to swap between them
<eylul> (this script basically does that, because you can keybind a script command to swap between between them)
<eylul> 2) you want to be able to calibrate with touching points with pen to adjust parallax etc. This is specifically needed on a 1 screen mode, when say the screen selected is cintiq screen, and cintiq pen area is exactly mapped to that
<OvenWerks> so a hot key to switch is better than a systray menu.
<OvenWerks> would the hot key be part of the pad keys or on the keyboard?
<eylul> 3) you want to be able to create keybind mappings to pen buttons and pad buttons that are generic, presets, and if possible, swapping automatically based on which software is focus. 
<eylul> its nice to have both
<eylul> systray if you are new to using this so that you remember it is there, a person who uses it everyday will use a keybind to swap back and forth
<eylul> e.g. you are drawing on your screen on a cintiq, but need to quickly access something on the secondary setting, e.g. adjust your reference, then back
<eylul> btw Ovenwerks if you are asking because you want to code this, a subset of these features even would be useful
<eylul> what I am talking about here is basically replicating what wacom settings do on windows
<OvenWerks> systray is not soon :)
<eylul> and maybe be even better than them in some ways ;)
<OvenWerks> I am just starting to think about it.
<eylul> *has still no idea how to solve the: automatically switch presets with active program part of the problem*
<OvenWerks> you mean change preset depending on what window is in focus?
<eylul> changing preset based on what program is in focus
<OvenWerks> same thing really.
<eylul> oh?
<eylul> OOOH
<eylul> sorry I misunderstood what you mean
<eylul> yeah based on what window is active
<eylul> and more specifically what software is on the window that is active
<OvenWerks>  X sees any window as separate even if two are owned by one process
<eylul> basically this is how it works:
<eylul> you have a generic profile that works with everything e.g. your top left button is ctrl-z second one is ctrl-x then you have a shift button on one of your pens. 
<OvenWerks> in an application like gimp would the user want the tablet to be used in the tool box as well as the drawing window (edit window)
<eylul> but e.g. (and this is just an example, I don't remember keybinds) if you are on mypaint. the undo is "z" not "ctrl-z" so when mypaint window is on focus, you want top-left button to map to z. and switch back when that window is not in focus
<eylul> you want to be able to have application specific overrides to profiles
<eylul> what I did, was that I had multiple profiles hardcoded into the script that I could swap between by saying customscript --krita for example
<eylul> and I made a software shortcut group on toolbar to select between them like a pseudo system tray.
<eylul> ;)
<OvenWerks> So a default setting that can changed when focused to a specific app.
<eylul> but that is not ideal, you ideally want to be able to swap automatically based on which software you have active.
<eylul> exactly
<eylul> I mean alright its probably still very useful, if you can select a preset from a system tray too, but automatic swithing would be even better.
<OvenWerks> OK, I was thinking one per app. but having a default makes more sense.
<eylul> a lot of software does have more or less same shortcuts within same domain (e.g. graphics)
<OvenWerks> I think switch on focus is possible. It would require an extra daemon I think.
<eylul> but then you have one software (I am looking at you blender!) that has everything all over the place for example ;)
<eylul> ;)
<eylul> *nods*
<eylul> if we DO this
 * OvenWerks is still looking focus follows mind...
<eylul> I would suggest focusing on having an app that can set up profiles that can be switched manually
<eylul> and ability to choose between screens
<eylul> honestly even that much isn't trivial at all
<eylul> after that we can add the additional abilities, but I'd rather make sure, we can reliably do the first part with multiple tablets
<eylul> and debug that before adding auto-switch and then run into a bug we cannot find ;D
<OvenWerks> Ya, I think being able to set up a default would be good.
<OvenWerks> as a first step
<eylul> the thing about calibration and custom setups, i wouldn't worry about it too much either. stretch across all screens and switch between that and each screen (maybe while respecting ratio of the tablet to get a crop of the screen) is more than enough place to begin and that can be done with a drop down as you suggested
<eylul> ;)
<eylul> yep
<eylul> main issue will be
<eylul> every tablet
<OvenWerks> While we would save the config(s) in a file, they would be best all in memory with the way we run things now
<eylul> has a key mapping to what xsetwacom sees differently
<eylul> I have some UI ideas
<OvenWerks> is it common to use two pads at a time?
<eylul> having 2-3 is not that uncommon
<eylul> e.g. having one with screen and a portable one
<OvenWerks> live at the same time?
<OvenWerks> (both going to the same application at once)
<eylul> I have like 3 wacoms all of which I use some time or another. (1 is my intuos pro, another is a tiny bamboo I carry around, and I have my cintiq: one with screen) wacoms don't break easily so it is easy to accumulate them over time ;D
<eylul> err
<eylul> I never heard of anyone using multiple ones together
<eylul> you select what you want to use
<eylul> you plug that in usually
<OvenWerks> one for blender and the other for gimp for example too.
<eylul> o.O
<OvenWerks> ok.
<OvenWerks> that is not so hard I think.
<eylul> nah I mean I am trying to think if it would be a useful flow but I doubt it... there is a deskspace issue
<eylul> like how many tablets can you fit into next to your computer
<OvenWerks> So it is reasonable to expect only one device to be plugged in at once then.
<eylul> people either draw with their tablet in front of them, or tablet to right, other hand on keyboard.
<eylul> for additional shortcuts
<eylul> yeah
<eylul> people might have multiple devices they swap in between.
<OvenWerks> Would most people expect each of their tablets to use the same shortcuts?
<eylul> so profiles should be device specific
<OvenWerks> (even if the buttons were in different order)
<eylul> not automatically
<eylul> but they would expect to be able to have different profiles for a new tablet.
<eylul> e.g. a new default and new overrides
<OvenWerks> that would be similar to what I already do with the audio devices.
<eylul> (so e.g. I have one default and a krita setup for my intuos, another one for the bamboo that has less buttons than my intuos)
<eylul> *nods*
<eylul> but yeah one plugged at a time
<eylul> really the fun problem is that there is like many many tablet models, with different button layouts, different button numbers
<OvenWerks> So I would import all the profiles and do the setup based on what was plugged in.
<eylul> and even if they have similar button setups the way they map to xsetwacom button IDs are different.
<eylul> XD
<eylul> exactlyt
<OvenWerks> In the case of switching between apps, the only thing that would change would be shortcuts?
<eylul> xsetwacom can tell you what type of device is in I believe
<eylul> yeah
<eylul> hmmm here is an idea
<eylul> and this is brainstorming
<OvenWerks> All this is brain storming :)
<eylul> what if the wacom automatically mapped to the screen where the active window is.. but that might turn into a bigger can of worms
<eylul> and sometimes apps are divided across multiple screens. yeah no
<eylul> just keeping screen switching manual seems better idea.
<eylul> also I mean it is important for the setting to not be confusing
<OvenWerks> X may see different screen names depending on what screens are active/turned on/plugged in.
<OvenWerks> (trying to remember)
<eylul> like it would be super cool if a systray (if we already had one) had the option of showing which profile is active at all times, so that people can fix their profiles without getting confused
<eylul> Ovenwerks best solution i can think of is to cycle through all of them
<eylul> and stretch
<eylul> AND maybe letting people add a preset
<OvenWerks> I guess don't use 0 1 2 but use vga hdmi* etc.
<eylul> I think the screen stuff changed based on which driver you used?
<eylul> but don't quote me on that
<OvenWerks> The main app would only work on the active preset for sure
<eylul> *nods*
<eylul> I'd keep screen setups completely separate from keybind profile
 * OvenWerks can't see any way something else makes sense
<eylul> yeah
<OvenWerks> So two tabs?
<eylul> well that's a separate question
<eylul> what I mean is screen settings shouldn't be application or profile specific I think. 
<eylul> they COULD be device specific
<OvenWerks> Yes
<eylul> I'd think screen setup and profile setup would be on different tabs just because both has a lot of details to sort
<eylul> they could be on same tab
<eylul> if e.g. screen setup was on a pop-up for detailed adjustment
<eylul> placement issue is more of a ease of use issue :)
<OvenWerks> For each device, we have a setup for each screen. Far each device we have a key mapping. For each application (or only those that are not default) we have an extra key map.
<eylul> for each device we have a screen setup, that once initially sorted, cycles through multiple presets via keybind or drop down menu.
<OvenWerks> So the tablet keys are mapped to a function name in the tabblet profile. The funtion is mapped to a shortcut in the application profile.
<eylul> for each device we have keymapping, and overrides to those keymaps for specific software yes.
<eylul> tablet keys are literally mapped to a keystroke
<eylul> or combination of keystroke
<OvenWerks> I am assuming that with more than one tabblet we would still be seeing whatever keys are there used for the same functions.
<eylul> or mouse clicks
<eylul> software handles what keybind does what
<eylul> so. my tablet buttons for example are mapped to "ctrl-z" "ctrl-y" "ctrl++" "ctrl+-" "shift" (some of these might be sliders in practice but they are read as keystrokes by xsetwacom)
<OvenWerks> yup
<eylul> krita knows ctrl-z is undo, ctrl-y is redo. ctrl++ is zoom in ctrl-- is zoomout etc
<eylul> or for example, the 2 buttons on my pen are mapped to right click and middle click
<eylul> touching the pen to the tablet is left click. (I think that one is default?)
<eylul> there is also one other feature
<eylul> that is sorting out the curve for pressure sensitivity
<OvenWerks> So if we have buttons called undo, redo, zoom and zoom out and the user clicks on one of these buttons and then hits the pad button the set that pad button to that function.
<eylul> krita has a great interface for that, that can give inspiration.
<eylul> I like your idea
<eylul> but instead of presets we could have like an interface for people to add buttons.
<eylul> e.g. define a name for a button. define the keybind
<eylul> now please press that button on your tablet.
<OvenWerks> Right that is sort of the way I am thinking
<eylul> I love this idea
<eylul> I absolutely love this idea
<OvenWerks> I was hoping for some sane defaults :)
<eylul> because it gets us out of the problem of trying to keep a database of evergrowing tablet layouts
<eylul> yes it is not pretty
<eylul> but it is flexible
<eylul> a
<eylul> and we can eventually grow to presets from there, but it is a robust solution
<OvenWerks> Maybe to match any defaults to something pretty common in the windows world?
<eylul> the problem isn't so much having defaults on windows world
<eylul> it really isn't easy to predict how many buttons a tablet will have
<eylul> xsetwacom sees buttons that are not there
<eylul> or stuff is REALLY out of order ;D
<OvenWerks> So? no problem
<OvenWerks> plugin the pad with the most buttons first
<OvenWerks>  set it up
<eylul> no like really
<eylul> look. ok what xsetwacom sees is
<eylul> button 1, button 2, button 3...... button n
<OvenWerks>  the next pads would choose which of those buttons they want to use... or add a new one
<OvenWerks> each pads buttons would be saved for next time.
<eylul> what the reality is button 1 same as pen right click. button 2 is the top left. button 3 the one under. then the next 4 buttons are actually scroll wheel.
<OvenWerks> thats ok.
<eylul> oh I think i see what you mean
<eylul> I think
<OvenWerks> there is a device preset for each device.
<eylul> yes there will be
<OvenWerks>  and then an app preset for each app (plus default)
<eylul> but I would caution against trying for US to have a device preset
<eylul> ;)
<eylul> I think I might have misunderstood you there
<OvenWerks> No US would have a default set of button names was my thought
<eylul> as an example?
<OvenWerks> yes as an example.
<eylul> like templates. cool
<eylul> I like that idea
<eylul> you can add more to the templates. so that you don't have to refind each shortcut.
<eylul> that pool of button names (with their keybinds) would be a pool independent from the device
<OvenWerks> yes
<eylul> for each device, as they set them up, they can use the ones they already created or create new ones. ;) I like this a lot
<OvenWerks> yes
<OvenWerks> So two steps, one for devices and one for applications
<eylul> I have some concerns about how complicated or how intuitive this would be.. but that I think can be determined on mockup phase and well.. I am kind of accepting that like the ubuntustudio audio settings these will go through iteration with feedback
<eylul> yep
<eylul> actually now that I think of it
<OvenWerks> The shipped application presets should match applications we ship.
<OvenWerks> So names and shortcuts should just work.
<eylul> main interface would be 1) screen setup to choose from: map to whole screen 1, map to whole screen 2 map, stretch to everything (with an option to respect ratio of the tablet's proportions) 2) pen setup.
<OvenWerks> The user should be able to set the device up and have it work with the apps we ship.
<eylul> then advanced screens for: advanced screen setup, keybinds to the pad, pressure sensitivity setups per device. these being in popups. 
<eylul> most simple tablets these days don't come with buttons.
<OvenWerks> OK, send me a few pics?
<eylul> hang on
<OvenWerks> (or a glade file I guess)
<OvenWerks> (back in a sec)
<eylul> example with buttons (because apparently entry level wacoms went back to having buttons): https://www.wacom.com/en-us/products/pen-tablets/wacom-intuos
<eylul> oh wait did you mean picture of the uI?
<eylul> err I'll try to get them to you
<eylul> I do need to think about it a little
<OvenWerks> So all pads have at least mouse button events plus some more (those look like 5 more... but one may be power)
<OvenWerks> Four it says
<OvenWerks> Bamboo says one
<eylul> sounds right
<eylul> at some point wacom was going with what looked like no buttons except the ones on pens..
<eylul> ;)
<eylul> and cintiqs currently don't have buttons but they have a button remote that you can buy separately.. apparently?
<eylul> I think?
<OvenWerks> It would be easy to press a pen button along with a place on the pad for different buttons...
<eylul> (*hasn't bought a new tablet in a while: old ones last just fine)
<eylul> you think like a pen interface. it would be cool to have additional button space.
<eylul> but honestly
<eylul> even the most basic mapping would help so I'd start with nailing the basics
<eylul> a
<eylul> and adding more stuff overtime :)
<OvenWerks> ciniq would expect the screen to be it's own I would guess or do they also work with the main?
<OvenWerks> I guess they are supposed to be your main screen.
<eylul> cintiq works with the main screen
<OvenWerks> mirror?
<eylul> but most of the time you are on cintiq screen
<eylul> I did have a setup to quickly switch back and forth through
<eylul> because for example if you are drawing on cintiq in full screen you might need to quickly swap adjust some reference images
<OvenWerks> ok
<eylul> or color pick from the reference image
<eylul> then swap back
<OvenWerks> so does the mouse cursor follow the pen then?
<eylul> or maybe you do only have a cintiq, and that day, you want to be able to draw on your main screen rather than your cintiq screen for whatever reason
<eylul> cursor follows the pen
<eylul> and actually jumps around
<eylul> there isn't multiple cursors, just one
<eylul> e.g. if you put your tablet aside, and put the pen on top
<eylul> then forgot that you did that and try to do something with your mouse...
<eylul> :)
<eylul> basically they conflict
<OvenWerks> two mice work the same
<eylul> *nods*
<eylul> yeah
<eylul> pen works differently in that, its positioning based on where the pen is, not relative like mouse
<eylul> but otherwise pen does work like a mouse
<eylul> :)
<OvenWerks> of course.
<OvenWerks> I have more than enough to think about already
<eylul> *nods*
<eylul> this one gets complicated
<eylul> :D
<OvenWerks> funny thing just happened... my son came down asking about tablets.
<eylul> oh?
<OvenWerks> he wants one...
<eylul> ah
<eylul> :)
<eylul> I am going to go offline for tonight I think, lets keep discussing this. I really like your solution to button mapping through
<OvenWerks> ok
<eylul> "_
<eylul> :)
#ubuntustudio-devel 2019-07-31
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: looking through my log file, I find a number of: music indicator-sound[1602]: accounts-service-access.vala:218: unable to sync volume 0.459806 to AccountsService: GDBus.Error:org.freedesktop.DBus.Error.InvalidArgs: No such interface 'com.ubuntu.AccountsService.Sound'
<OvenWerks> Now I am happy that no indicator can make sounds happen. However, it would be nice to stop those sounds farther up the chain for no errors in the log
<OvenWerks> (that would be /var/log/syslog)
<Eickmeyer> Well, xfce4-volumed needs to be removed. You need xfce4-pulseaudio-plugin and add it to your panel. Does the same thing, but doesn't have the issues.
<OvenWerks> Ya, I am running 18.04 so it may be fixed by now.
<spicey> why would someone use ubuntu studio??
<spicey> i always just used ubuntu, so i wonder why ubuntu studio
<Eickmeyer> !ubuntustudio | spicey
<spicey> is it better for video editing etcetera??
<ubottu> spicey: Ubuntu Studio is an official flavor of Ubuntu for the artist who wishes to use Ubuntu as their creativity workstation. It contains packages for artists of all kinds, including Audio, Music, Video, Photography, Graphic Design, and Publishing. For more info and install instructions, join #ubuntustudio or see http://ubuntustudio.org
<OvenWerks> it depends on what you are trying to do
<spicey> i tried to work with video editing programs like kdenlive before, it would be nice to find something stable that works for ubuntu
<Eickmeyer> Also, this is the development collaboration channel. Please head over to #ubuntustudio for these kinds of questions.
<spicey> i tried all of them kdenlive is best what i found
<spicey> ow ok sorry
<spicey> thx for the info :)
<Eickmeyer> You're welcome. :)
<Eickmeyer> !ubuntustudio is <reply> Ubuntu Studio is an official flavor of Ubuntu for the artist who wishes to use Ubuntu as their creativity workstation. It contains applications for artists of all kinds, including Audio, Music, Video, Photography, Graphic Design, and Publishing. For more info and install instructions, join #ubuntustudio or see http://ubuntustudio.org
#ubuntustudio-devel 2019-08-01
<studiobot> <teward001> Eickmeyer and others: vorlon made some good points in release regarding raystudio - wrong GPL license spec, invalid reps (missing explicit Py3 dep), and missing copyright entry for the jacklib files included.
<studiobot> <teward001> this needs fixed and ihave to adjust workflow so no more NEW sponsors until I get all my lintian stuff and tests set up.  Also, bad lintian overrides
<studiobot> <teward001> and am gonna be harsh on future uploads
<Eickmeyer> teward: I pushed the corrections.
 * Eickmeyer is beyond frustrated
<Eickmeyer> This shouldn't have taken a month to get this feedback.
<Eickmeyer> A month for something that took me 20 minutes to fix.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2019-08-02
<OvenWerks> nothing like making somethign sound easy  ;)
<shaun> We are hiring talented PHP devs! Decent salary and open to telework. We're based in Luxembourg. contact@belenvol.lu
<OvenWerks> spam ran away as soon as possible
<Eickmeyer>  Â¯\_(ã)_/Â¯
#ubuntustudio-devel 2020-07-27
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: is there anyway we can have a backport version of zita-ajbridge? version 0.8.4 fixes the screaming cpu usage when a device is unplugged.
<OvenWerks> Focal has that but the LTS does not.
<studiobot> <teward001> isn't Focal an LTS? o.O
<studiobot> <teward001> (Or did yuo mean groovy?)
<OvenWerks> teward: right I messed up
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: groovy has the right one focal does not
 * OvenWerks wonders what problems the fix will give...
<studiobot> <teward001> *watches everything explode*
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: I might be able to handle that.
<Eickmeyer> !info zita-ajbridge focal
<ubottu> zita-ajbridge (source: zita-ajbridge): alsa to jack bridge. In component universe, is optional. Version 0.8.2-1 (focal), package size 16 kB, installed size 97 kB
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: is 0.8.4 a strictly bugfix or does it include new features?
<Eickmeyer> If it's a bugfix, we might be able to SRU it.
<OvenWerks> The readme for the update is:
<OvenWerks> "zita-ajbridge 0.8.4Â  Â  Â (05/04/2020)
<OvenWerks>       -------------------
<OvenWerks>       * Fixed 100% CPU on sound card disconnect."
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: That is the only entry
<OvenWerks> And there is no 0.8.3 it goes from 0.8.2 to 0.8.4
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: Ok, would you mind filing an SRU bug report for it? You could probably describe the situation a lot better than I can.
<Eickmeyer> Once you have that, I can upload/sponsor the SRU.
<OvenWerks> sru? ok. I was thinking just add to backports, but sru would be nice. The only thing is that I would like to be able to test it to make sure that the fix of that doesn't create another problem. (like the ports vanishing before connections can be transfered :)
<Eickmeyer> If it's a bugfix, then it can be SRU'd eaily.
<OvenWerks> Anyway I will craete a bug report (this evening I think) I may need help making it sru-able.
<Eickmeyer> Ok, sounds good.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2020-07-28
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/zita-ajbridge/+bug/1889146
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1889146 in zita-ajbridge (Ubuntu) "Loss of USB device causes zita-ajbridge to run cpu at 100% and hang" [Undecided,New]
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: Ok, turned it into an SRU, I'll upload the fix soon.
<OvenWerks> let me know if I need to test proposed.
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: Uploaded, awaiting SRU team to look at it.
<OvenWerks> which ppa?
<OvenWerks> I can test it against -controls
<OvenWerks> and make sure everything works with it or start working on fixes.
<OvenWerks> or even where is the deb? :)
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: It's uploaded to the proposed queue. That's how it works.
<Eickmeyer> You could always install the .deb from groovy, since it's the same thing anyhow.
<Eickmeyer> Really, there's nothing we can do to speed this up unless I were to bug the release team.
<Eickmeyer> s/release/sru
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: SRU was accepted, it'll be in focal-proposed shortly.
<OvenWerks> I may be out for a while anyway. no need to bug anyone. I will try installing groovy if it is not in proposed when I get back
<Eickmeyer> Meh, I already bugged 'em and that's how it got accepted. It was a no-brainer anyhow.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2020-07-29
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: dl from https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/zita-ajbridge/0.8.4-1ubuntu0.20.04.1/+build/19742691
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: Or enable focal-propsed.
<OvenWerks> installed tested (in more ways than one. The cpu does not seem to change at all and best yet, it appears controls will require no changes
<OvenWerks> where do I record a success
<OvenWerks> on the bug page?
<Eickmeyer> Ok, then comment in the bug report your findings, change the verification-needed and verification-needed-focal tags to verification-done and verification-done-focal respectively.
<Eickmeyer> Then we just wait 7 days for it to gestate in proposed and it'll get moved to updates.
<Eickmeyer> And then, theoretically, included in 20.04.1.
<OvenWerks> good
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: I see you changed the tags, did you comment the success?
<OvenWerks> just doing that
<OvenWerks> Ok done, does it read ok?
<OvenWerks> I think I can remove some of the delays I added to get around this problem
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: ^^^
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: Looks good. If you want to go ahead and remove the delays, that might be good.
<OvenWerks> shorten maybe, I don't think I can remove. Alsa sometimes gets reset which sends a device removed and reinserted. It is good to wait till that is done then check if the device is really gone/there before proceeding.
<Eickmeyer> Yeah, definitely.
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: new version of controls... may need to wait so it can depend on new version of zita-ajbridge.
<OvenWerks> or I guess it can be added to groovy but not backports till the new version of zita is out.
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: Ok, sounds good. It'll take about a week for that to get through proposed.
 * OvenWerks will continue testing till then.
<Eickmeyer> One thing that came up in the past was, "Why did you backport and not SRU this?" so that's why something as small as zita-ajbridge was easy to SRU.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2020-07-30
<Eickmeyer[m]> OvenWerks: Here's what I've been working on: 
 * Eickmeyer[m] uploaded an image: image.png (207KB) < https://matrix.org/_matrix/media/r0/download/matrix.org/qPnHPsnjEGFTCtkIzmIQjuUi >
<Eickmeyer[m]> It's not close to ready, but it's a start.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2020-07-31
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer[m]: looks pretty.... whats to shop for?
<Eickmeyer[m]> OvenWerks: There are parts that are yet to be disabled. That said, we do have merchandise.
<OvenWerks> So like tees and mugs I guess
<OvenWerks> So you started with a welcome from another distro and are modifying it. Makes sense
<Eickmeyer[m]> Well, it's a fork of Ubuntu MATE's in a sense.
<OvenWerks> always reuse code when possible :)
<Eickmeyer[m]> Exactly. There's no way I could've coded this on my own.
<Eickmeyer[m]> In theory, the "Software" part could replace -installer eventually.
<OvenWerks> A nicer installer would be welcome I think.
<OvenWerks> The hard part is piping the output from apt. I have not been able to get that to work in python yet.
<OvenWerks> tcl was easier.
 * OvenWerks wanted to get the output of zita and a2jmidid to the log file.
<OvenWerks> I think I would actually have to run from another thread to do it.
<OvenWerks> So that would mean a thread for each zita.
<OvenWerks> probably apt would be easier because there is only one.
<Eickmeyer[m]> Yeah, I'm not sure how they're doing it yet. That section is probably going to be disabled for the time being until I can get an idea of what it's doing.
<OvenWerks> the gnome sw store (probably what that button links to) "deals" with it by ignoring all output so far as I can tell.
<Eickmeyer> Nope, not at all. It's a curated "boutique".
<OvenWerks> Ah.
<OvenWerks> I think the plasma installers (Discover and muon) take over a lot of apt's work, but I am not really sure. The one thing -installer doesn't do is to warn if removing packages as it installs others
