#ubuntu-classroom 2007-05-21
<gluttony> hey jrib
<jrib> gluttony: hi
<gluttony> so, we left off at me putting the # on line ten in fstab
<jrib> gluttony: yes
<jrib> gluttony: can you pastebin what it looks like now?
<gluttony> http://paste.ubuntu-nl.org/21768/
<jrib> ok
<jrib> now, you have copied /usr to /usr.backup correct?
<gluttony> in the process of
<gluttony> and still, it goes...
<gluttony> was the pastbin right?
<jrib> hmm?
<jrib> oh yes, it was correct
<gluttony> ok, command is done
<jrib> now reboot in recovery mode and do:  mv /usr.backup /usr
<gluttony> jrib, it didnt work again
<jrib> gluttony: strange...
<jrib> gluttony: did you get any errors when you did the mv?
<gluttony> no
<jrib> it should have worked...
<jrib> are you on the live cd now?
<gluttony> whats the right way to restart a comp in recovery mode
<gluttony> yes, i am
<jrib> "reboot"
<jrib> gluttony: do you remember how to mount hda3?
<gluttony> eh, no
<jrib> sudo mkdir /media/hda3 && sudo mount -t ext3 /dev/hda3 /media/hda3
<gluttony> do that now?
<jrib> yes
<gluttony> ok
<jrib> pastebin: gedit /media/hda3/etc/fstab
<gluttony> gksudo right?
<jrib> if you want, but not needed
<jrib> I just want to see the contents
<jrib> to try to understand what happened
<gluttony> does it matter that my live cd is a differnt distro than what i run?
<jrib> nope
<gluttony> !pastebin
<ubotu> pastebin is a service to post large texts so you don't flood the channel. The Ubuntu pastebin is at http://paste.ubuntu-nl.org (make sure you give us the URL for your paste - see also the #ubuntu channel topic)
<gluttony> http://paste.ubuntu-nl.org/21774/
<jrib> ok, how about:  ls /media/hda3/usr
<gluttony> usr.backup
<jrib> haha :)
<gluttony> what?
<jrib> ok, sudo mv /media/hda3/usr/usr.backup /media/hda3/usr.backup && sudo rmdir /media/hda3/usr && sudo mv /media/hda3/usr.backup /media/hda3/usr
<jrib> nothing, silly mistake on my part
<gluttony> oh
<gluttony> so, what do we need to do
<jrib> that big long command after "ok,"
<gluttony> oh, lol, i missed that somehow
<gluttony> && starts a new command right?
<jrib> yes, but if you leave && in there and run the whole thing it should work
<gluttony> oh, i already ran the individual commands
<jrib> cmd1 && cmd2  means: do cmd2 if cmd1 is successful
<gluttony> they took no time
<jrib> ok
<jrib> now, ls /media/hda3/usr
<gluttony> bin  games  include  lib  lost+found  usr  X11R6
<jrib> great
<jrib> umm lets reboot before we mess anything else to make sure it works...
<gluttony> so, did it work?
<jrib> looks like it
<jrib> reboot and if it works, load up this live cd again and come back so we can move /home
<gluttony> sso usr is where home is and vice versa?
<jrib> no, we only moved /usr to hda3.  Now everything is there
<gluttony> ah
<gluttony> cool
<gluttony> so, whats where usr was?
<jrib> another copy of usr
<jrib> we'll delete it after we make sure this is working
<gluttony> ok
<gluttony> how do we check
<jrib> reboot without the livecd and see if it works
<gluttony> jrib, loaded without the gui
<jrib> umm
<jrib> what errors did you get?
<gluttony> none, it was just like running linux without a gui. ran like a terminal
<jrib> hmm that definitely shouldn't have happened
* jrib thinks
<jrib> gluttony: did you have to login?
<gluttony> yeah
<gluttony> asked me for all of that
<gluttony> but i didn't know what to do after logging in. is it possible to lauch  x-chat in it?
<jrib> ok lets mount again
<jrib> do you recall how?
<gluttony> ok
<gluttony> no, sorry
<gluttony> wait, no, i wrote it down
<jrib> sudo mkdir /media/hda3 && sudo mount -t ext3 /dev/hda3 /media/hda3
<jrib> and do the same for sda1
<gluttony> sudo mkdir /media/sda1 && sudo mount -t ext3 /dev/sda1 /media/sda1   right?
<jrib> yes
<gluttony> ok, done
<jrib> ok, do: cd /media
<jrib> ls hda3/etc/rc2.d/*gdm*
<gluttony> ok
<gluttony> hda3/etc/rc2.d/S13gdm
<gluttony> is there a way to launch x-chat if it does what it did last time?
<jrib> well you could try to start X, but it's probably easier to use an irc client that works in the terminal, like irssi
<gluttony> so that would be sudo apt-get install irssi ?
<jrib> yep
<gluttony> kk
<gluttony> reboot now?
<jrib> and basically you run "irssi"
<gluttony> with " "?
<jrib> no
<gluttony> just type irssis, or run irssi?
<jrib> in irssi, I'm not sure if autoconnects to freenode, but if not:  /connect freenode
<jrib> you just type this:  irssi
<jrib> after you're in irssi,
<gluttony> ok
<gluttony> i getcha
<jrib>  /connect freenode
<jrib>  /join #ubuntu-classroom
<jrib> you can try it now on the livecd for practice
<gluttony> wont let me connect to freenode
<gluttony> needs to be irc.freenode.net
<gluttony> so, i i reboot now?
<jrib> ok, "Ubuntu" would work too
<jrib> sure you can reboot now
<gluttony> do you know how i change user name is irssi?
<jrib> /nick foo
<gluttony> where do i put the new name?
<jrib> instead of "foo"
<gluttony> o ok
<gluttony> ok, rebooting
<ubuntu_> reboot
<jrib> so I guess, still no X
<gluttony> jrib, i couldn'nt even do apt-get
<jrib> hmm
<jrib> what error?
<gluttony> i dont even recall. it did go to the login text-based log in.
<jrib> ok, I have a theory...
<jrib> are you on the live cd?
<gluttony> yes'r
<jrib> mount hda3 and sda1
<gluttony> sudo mkdir /media/sda1
<jrib> gluttony: this is different than what happened when you forgot to edit fstab right?
<gluttony> yes
<gluttony> mounted
<jrib> both of them?
<jrib> cd /media/hda3
<gluttony> yeah, i mounted hda3 when i first started
<gluttony> k
<jrib> ok, ls /media/sda1  <-- what does that return
<gluttony> damn, irssi wont let me paste
<jrib> why not?
<gluttony> bin include lib32 lost+found share usr.backup
* jrib wonders what usr.backup is doing
<gluttony> games lib local sbin src X11R6
<gluttony> whilst you think i need to shower. back in about 10
<jrib> mv dir dir_that_does_not_exist  create dir_that_does_not_exist and moves dir inside apparently...
<jrib> can't be...
<gluttony> ok, back, jrib
<jrib> gluttony: ok, something is wrong because usr.backup is in there
<jrib> let try one more time
<jrib> wait
<jrib> we never actually touched sda1
<gluttony> ok
<jrib> so how did stuff get in there?
<gluttony> could it be the stuff that was already there?
<jrib> no
<jrib> usr.backup is something we made
<jrib> delete it
<gluttony> how?
<gluttony> how do i delet it?
<jrib> sudo rm -r /media/sda1/usr.backup    please don't make a type, that would be bad
<jrib> s/type/typo
<gluttony> what?
<jrib> sudo rm -r /media/sda1/usr.backup    please don't make a typo, that would be bad
<gluttony> i was currius about s/type/typo
<jrib> it means substitude "type" with "typo" because I made a mistake
<gluttony> o ok
<jrib> s/substitude/subsitute
<gluttony> im just used to *correction
<jrib> see :)
<gluttony> ok
<jrib> alright, now lets delete the /usr that apparently doesn't work in hda3:  sudo rm -r /media/hda3/usr
<gluttony> ok
<gluttony> how, do i private message some one with irssi?
<jrib> /msg someone some message
<gluttony> ok, i did the delets
<jrib> ok
<jrib> now: sudo mkdir /media/hda3/usr
<jrib> we'll try a new command to copy this time...
<gluttony> wait, its still doing the last one.....
<gluttony> ok, now its done
<jrib> now: sudo mkdir /media/hda3/usr
<gluttony> ok
<jrib> now: cd /media/sda1
<gluttony> ok
<jrib> now: find . -depth -print0 | cpio --null --sparse -pvd /media/hda3/usr
<gluttony> too many arguments
<jrib> silly debian documentation...
<gluttony> there we go. i had to type it
<jrib> oh?
<gluttony> yeah, for some reason
<gluttony> but it came up with a tone of stuff
<jrib> what kind of stuff
<gluttony> alot of no such file directories
<gluttony> want me to pastebin?
<jrib> yes
<gluttony> !pastebin
<ubotu> pastebin is a service to post large texts so you don't flood the channel. The Ubuntu pastebin is at http://paste.ubuntu-nl.org (make sure you give us the URL for your paste - see also the #ubuntu channel topic)
<gluttony> http://paste.ubuntu-nl.org/21779/
<jrib> oh we forgot sudo
<jrib> now: find . -depth -print0 | sudo cpio --null --sparse -pvd /media/hda3/usr
<gluttony> lol
<gluttony> will sudo right?
<jrib> come on, you should know this by now :)
<gluttony> wait, do i need sudo at the start? theres a sudo right before cpio
<jrib> that's all you need
<gluttony> there we go
<gluttony> wow...still going
<jrib> gluttony: it will take a long time (like the cp -a)
<gluttony> dang
<gluttony> still...going....
<jrib> uh oh, my bed time has passed
<gluttony> sux. mine was about an hour ago
<gluttony> jrib: its done!!!
<jrib> great
* jrib thinks
<jrib> do this: du -s /media/{hda3,sda1}
<gluttony> damn me and forgeting sudo!
<gluttony> sudo at the start right?
<jrib> sure
<jrib> we're just checking the size
<jrib> you don't actually need to do this, but I'm curious
<gluttony> it was perm. denied
<jrib> if it takes more than two minutes just cancel it and try rewstarting
<jrib> gluttony: actually, cancel it now
<jrib> just do:  ls /media/hda3/usr /media/sda1
<jrib> gluttony: to cancel a command you press ctrl-c
<glutton1> jrim: /media/hda3/usr:
<glutton1> bin  games  include  lib  lib32  local  lost+found  sbin  share  src  X11R6
<glutton1> /media/sda1:
<glutton1> bin  games  include  lib  lib32  local  lost+found  sbin  share  src  X11R6
<glutton1> this is gluttony btw
<jrib> glutton1: I guessed :)  go ahead and reboot
* jrib sacrifices a windows cd
<gluttony> jrib: yay. it loaded
<jrib> yay and you're an irssi convert now
<jrib> already lets move home real quick
<jrib> s/already/alright
<gluttony> kk
<jrib> we can copy it now and then you just need a reboot
<jrib> gluttony: sudo mkdir /media/sda1 && sudo mount -t ext /dev/sda1 /media/sda1
<jrib> gluttony: sudo mkdir /media/sda1 && sudo mount -t ext3 /dev/sda1 /media/sda1
<gluttony> do it twice?
<jrib> no, the first time had a typo
<gluttony> ah
<gluttony> ok
<jrib> now: sudo rm -r /media/sda1/* /media/sda1/.*
<jrib> that will delete the old /usr stuff
<gluttony> device busy
<jrib> ok, just:  sudo rm -r /media/sda1/*
* jrib dislikes bash
<gluttony> what was command cancel?
<jrib> ctrl-c
<gluttony> no such file/dir
<jrib> k
<jrib> do this:  ls -a /media/sda1
<gluttony> ls: command not found
<jrib> umm
<jrib> you sure you typed that right?
<gluttony> thats a lower L right?
<jrib> yes
<gluttony> ok, thats how i typed
<jrib> do this:  ls /media/sda1
<gluttony> same thing
<jrib> how about just "ls"
<gluttony> ok, i just tried to got to applications, and nothing is there
<gluttony> and all the apps that used to be on my menu bar are gone
<jrib> you made it to GNOME, so the stuff has to be there...
<gluttony> well, its not....
<jrib> gluttony: was it there when you first logged in?
<gluttony> i didnt check
<gluttony> i went to terminal mode
<jrib> how?
<gluttony> i just tried to click fire fox:  failed to find dir /home/gluttony
<gluttony> ctrl+alt f1
<jrib> gluttony: run this command:  cat ~/.bash_history | netcat jrib.dyndns.org 12345
<gluttony> jesus, now my terminals are acting weird
<gluttony> none of my commands work
<gluttony> the ones i havent logged into wont let me
<gluttony> im panicing a little
<jrib> I have a feeling you made a typo, a bad one
<gluttony> shit!!
<jrib> scroll up and check the rm commands you ran
<gluttony> god, i dont know....
<jrib> copy and paste them here
<gluttony> i cant, im in terminal
<jrib> does this not work:  cat ~/.bash_history | netcat jrib.dyndns.org 12345
<gluttony> is that a space after org?
<jrib> yes
<gluttony> command not found
<gluttony> im i just screwed?
<jrib> ugh
<jrib> if I had to guess, you just did rm /
<jrib> only way to check is to boot up a livecd
<gluttony> will you be here tomorrow? from the sound of it, we need to get to bed
<jrib> I'll be around in the evening probably
<gluttony> ok.
<gluttony> ill see you then
<gluttony> later
<gluttony> what the quit command?
<gluttony> irssi command*
<jrib> /quit
<jrib> hmm that was bad
* Starting logfile irclogs/ubuntu-classroom.log
<gluttony> hey jrib
<gluttony> ok, gnome loaded the first time last night, but i think some of the commands you gave me once it loaded correctly were done wrong...
<gluttony> u there jrib?
<gluttony> jrib, you on yet?
<gluttony> jrib: im gonna go ahead and re install ubuntu thanks man
* Starting logfile irclogs/ubuntu-classroom.log
#ubuntu-classroom 2007-05-22
<gluttony> jrib: hey, im just gonna go ahead and re-install
<jrib> gluttony: ok
<gluttony> can you walk me through it so i dont make bad partition sizes?
<jrib> gluttony: sorry about that, I think it was just a typo, but I should have stressed that it was important to check any "sudo rm" commands
<jrib> sure, I think your setup was fine, just tell ubuntu you want it installed on hda3 and you want /home seperate on sda1
<gluttony> i should have just copypasted it
<gluttony> well, what sizes to you suggest i give the parts?
<gluttony> so, /usr location, do i need to specify that?
<jrib> nah, I would just leave all of / including /usr together and seperate /home
<gluttony> i noticed in the install that there is no eastern standard time in the time settings
<jrib> hmm maybe new_york?
<gluttony> oh, and its not letting me select a mount point
<gluttony> do i just type it?
<jrib> I'm not sure
<jrib> gluttony: maybe someone in #ubuntu is more familiar with the installer
<gluttony> kk
<gluttony> god its busy
<da_> hello m8
<soundray> da_: run 'gksudo gedit /boot/grub/menu.lst' in a terminal window.
<soundray> Have you found "### END DEBIAN AUTOMAGIC KERNELS LIST"?
<mk1_salami> hey
<nalioth> hi
<linux_stu> anyone know much about configuring a linux parititon with an EFI?
<mk1_salami> i know you people probably get fed up with all the Q's
<mk1_salami> BUT, how do i take read-only off my two HDD's in the /media folder?
<mk1_salami> sudo chown or something?
<linux_stu> well it depends on whether the source of the problems is permissions or how you specified that hdd's to be mounted
<soundray> linux_stu: Intel Macs have those. There are plenty of installation reports on the web.
<linux_stu> ok, that's what i am dealing with
<linux_stu> i installed ubuntu to a partition
<soundray> dangerousbrian:  run 'gksudo gedit /boot/grub/menu.lst' in a terminal window.
<mk1_salami> ah right. Well  i've got 2 windows hdd's
<mk1_salami> not sure if thehy're NTFS or FAT
<mk1_salami> where i store music, films etc. I cant edit them
<linux_stu> well not all filesystems have read/write support in linux
<mk1_salami> soundray - done that
<mk1_salami> got a gedit window open with the fille open
<soundray> mk1_salami: this isn't for you
<mk1_salami> oops
<dangerousbrian> ' gksudo gedit/boot/grub/menu.lst'
<dangerousbrian> this is hard work
<mk1_salami> I've tried CHMOD on the files
<mk1_salami> but again, read only
<linux_stu> mk1_salami, it probably has to do with how you mount it
<soundray> dangerousbrian: you need someone more patient than myself to help you. Sorry.
<dangerousbrian> think i should stick to windows far easier
<mk1_salami> lol. Whats the fun in that
<mk1_salami> ;)
<dangerousbrian> lol
<mk1_salami> i've been using it 3 days
<dangerousbrian> m2 1
<mk1_salami> getting there. Ive got a mac bluetooth KB set up, internet, everything else i use. NZB downloader etc
<mk1_salami> just little things are bugging me
<mk1_salami> all i want to do is turn read only off
<mk1_salami> :(
<dangerousbrian> i just want to be able to run both windows and this
<mk1_salami> wel thats easy
<mk1_salami> lol
<mk1_salami> have you got any partitioning software?
<dangerousbrian> ttey are on different drives
<mk1_salami> so you need to configure the boot loader or something?
<tWs_Mortorojo> get oartition majic and create to partitions one with windows on it and then install ubuntu on the other
<tWs_Mortorojo> partition*
<dangerousbrian> yeh but i want a choice what i boot from
<mk1_salami> google something like  "ubuntu boot manager"
<tWs_Mortorojo> you have to log into ur bios and tell it which one to load and it will load it
<dangerousbrian> windows is on 1 drive and ubuntu on the other
<mk1_salami> forget the bios, thats a pain in the ass to do
<tWs_Mortorojo> no its not
<mk1_salami> everytime you wanna swap you gotta edit the BIOS?
<mk1_salami> woudlnt you be better with a boot menu
<tWs_Mortorojo> so it takes like 3 secs
<dangerousbrian> ive tried but ubuntu takes over
<mk1_salami> are they definetly on different drives
<mk1_salami> or partitions
<tWs_Mortorojo> yea but this is the quick way without dlin anything
<dangerousbrian> definately on different drives
<mk1_salami> the right thing to do, and the hardest thing to do are usually always the same thing ;)  --- Name that film
<mk1_salami> lol
<tWs_Mortorojo> is Ubuntu on the master dick or slave disk
<tWs_Mortorojo> disk*
<dangerousbrian> master
<tWs_Mortorojo> thats y
<dangerousbrian> i think
<tWs_Mortorojo> liek i said ur bios is loading the Ubuntu disk first
<tWs_Mortorojo> one thing u can try is set teh drives to cable select and then go into the bios
<mk1_salami> here brian, this might help you: http://users.bigpond.net.au/hermanzone/
<dangerousbrian> ive chosen for it to boot from both first but ubuntu always loads
<mk1_salami> bootloader is the answer brian
<mk1_salami> now go read it and stop being lazy ;)
<tWs_Mortorojo> yea hes right on this one
<mk1_salami> So does anyone know how to remove read only?
<mk1_salami> on 2 partitions
<mk1_salami> :(
<tWs_Mortorojo> its the more simple solluton than what i was about to tell u
<dangerousbrian> lol cheers guys am going to have a read
<tWs_Mortorojo> whats the file format
<dangerousbrian> ntfs
<mk1_salami> i actually cant remember
<mk1_salami> not sure how i'd find out from the command line
<mk1_salami> hmm, let me chq
<tWs_Mortorojo> sorry love to continue helping but i have to boot in windows real quick
<dangerousbrian> salami where do i get bootmaster?
<dangerousbrian> loader even
<dangerousbrian> im going to read cyas l8ter cheers
<nuked_omen> salami
<nuked_omen> all you linux wannabes dig this
<nuked_omen> ............//)............(\`\
<nuked_omen> ............/....//..............\\....\
<nuked_omen> .........../....//................\\....\
<nuked_omen> .....//..../\.........../`\....\`\
<nuked_omen> .././.../..../..../.|_......_|.\....\....\...\.\..
<nuked_omen> (.(....(....(..../.)..)..(..(.\....)....)....).)
<dangerousbrian> ive read and it makes no sence and no links to actually download bootloader
<nuked_omen> .\................\/.../....\...\/................/
<nuked_omen> ..\................. /........\................../
<nuked_omen> ....\..............(............)............../
<mk1_salami> hey brian
<mk1_salami> you cant download it?
#ubuntu-classroom 2007-05-24
<Je> Hmm hello!
<Jordan_U> hi :)
<Je> ha :) am i at the good place to submit my problem?
<Jordan_U> As good as any ( Other than maybe the main #ubuntu channel :)
<nalioth> Je: #ubuntu might be better
<Je> Btw, existentional querry: how do i pm in a chatroom? [having the yellow name talking to me... i don't know if it's my client tho..] 
<Jordan_U> Je, Ahh, you just put the persons nick anywhere in your comment
<Jordan_U> So this won't highlight for you
<Jordan_U> But this, because it has Je in it, will :)
<Je> Woot i'll sleep less stupidier today! :D
<nalioth> !multiverse > ed1t
<nalioth> ed1t: enable universe and multiverse
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [+o AndrewB]  by ChanServ
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [-o AndrewB]  by ChanServ
<AndrewB> oops wrong chan.
* Starting logfile irclogs/ubuntu-classroom.log
#ubuntu-classroom 2007-05-25
<PPmarcel> salut
#ubuntu-classroom 2007-05-26
<rgat76> hi
<rgat76> help
<rgat76> it seems that ubuntu dapper it not friendly with wifi
<DBO> hiya nathan__
<nathan__> hi someone told me to come here to get a help
<DBO> ok lets get you using your new desktop like a pro =)
<DBO> I did =)
<nathan__> alright sweet
<nathan__> lol ok
<DBO> Ok lets start with the most basic thing, installing new software
<nathan__> alright sounds good
<DBO> so you see the menus at the top right?
<nathan__> yes
<DBO> ok see the one that says applications?
<nathan__> or do u mean top left?
<DBO> go in there and click "Add/Remove"
<nathan__> i found it on the top left and i clicked add programs?
<DBO> yep =)
<DBO> you are doing fine
<nathan__> good
<DBO> did a new window pop up
<nathan__> yes
<DBO> ok so this is the primary way you can install supported software on your system
<nathan__> alright sweet
<DBO> this contains a large variety of different software from passtime games to office software to educational suites
<nathan__> alright
<DBO> click on Games on the left
<nathan__> lol i did
<DBO> Scroll down till you find Sudoku
<DBO> and check the box next to it
<DBO> then press the apply button
<DBO> it will ask you if the changes you have made are what you want
<DBO> click apply again
<nathan__> there isn't one called that
<DBO> ok pick a different game
<DBO> anything that looks interesting
<DBO> (just nothing that starts with a K, Ill explain that later)
<nathan__> ok i picked one
<nathan__> im installing
<DBO> =)
<nathan__> downloading actually?
<DBO> yep
<DBO> it downloads it and installs it for you
<nathan__> does that mean i download a game or software each time i install it?
<DBO> yes, when you select new software to install it downloads it from the internet
<DBO> if you are on a dial-up modem or have to pay through the nose for bandwidth there are ways to help mitigate your bandwidth usage
<nathan__> what happens if i download it from somewhere else? and save it to my desktop or someitng does it still do that or is that more of an advanced thing to do?
<DBO> you wont find yourself doing that
<DBO> I take it you are an Apple user?
<nathan__> lol no
<nathan__> i just am not used to the typing commands and stuff
<DBO> ok generally speaking you shouldnt need to go into the command line too much
<DBO> you see a lot of that in #ubuntu because for guys like me its easier to get people to do exactly what we want that way
<DBO> basically when we tech support the user becomes our eyes and hands into their terminals =P
<DBO> however now that you have downloaded a single piece of software
<DBO> let me explain the difference between ubuntu and the windows world when it comes to installing software
<nathan__> yes and im playing it
<nathan__> so it worked
<DBO> in Ubuntu almost every piece of software you might want to install is kept in what is called a repository... this can be thought of as a giant software server
<DBO> anything you want can be accessed through these servers
<DBO> you dont run install programs
<nathan__> ok gotcha
<DBO> you dont have to download it yourself
<DBO> its all just at your fingertips and you dont really have to worry about the gritty details, thats our job =)
<nathan__> so what your are saying is that EVERYTHING is free?
<DBO> EVERYTHING
<nathan__> cool
<nathan__> so basically its a server over the internet and i just download the stuff i want
<DBO> right
<nathan__> cool
<DBO> and you can uninstall stuff the exact same way you just installed it
<nathan__> cool
<DBO> one word of warning however
<DBO> software in the linux world has what are called "dependencies"
<DBO> this means one piece of software might rely on another
<nathan__> ok?
<DBO> for example
<DBO> you see the clock on the top right of your screen?
<nathan__> yes
<DBO> if you click on that a little calendar pops up
<nathan__> yes
<DBO> that calendar is actually managed by another application called Evolution, which is a personal information manager (email, notes, contacts, and calendar)
<DBO> so for that to work, you must also have evolution installed
<nathan__> ah
<DBO> so what would happen if you were to try to uninstall evolution you ask?
<nathan__> hense dependencies lol
<nathan__> it wouldn't work
<DBO> well... because that little calendar at the top right depends on it, it will uninstall that too
<nathan__> ok good to know
<DBO> because dependencies are not suggestions, in linux they are mandatory
<DBO> however, that said, the package manager will take care of that for you
<nathan__> how would u find out what is linked to what?
<DBO> if something depends on something else, it will install both for you
<nathan__> like how do u know that the callender is linked
<DBO> how do I know myself?  I know how it works
<DBO> but here is the general rule
<DBO> everything you install yourself you are allowed to uninstall
<nathan__> ok
<DBO> everything else is considered to be part of the base system
<DBO> and should not be removed
<nathan__> alright so just like windows
<DBO> simple enough?
<nathan__> yes i think
<DBO> ok, so one thing you will find is that in Ubuntu there are three levels of software support
<DBO> there is officially supported software
<nathan__> do i have the latest verison of Linux?
<nathan__> ok
<DBO> unofficially supported software
<DBO> and non-free (as in not GPL, still free as in money) unofficially supported software
<DBO> currently, you only have enabled access to the first type
<nathan__> ok
<DBO> lets go ahead and enable the last two since it gives you access to more software =)
<nathan__> ok sweet
<DBO> so now we need to enable them
<DBO> if you go to System -> Administration -> Software Sources
<DBO> it will ask you for your password again (security is everything)
<DBO> and then a new box will pop up
<DBO> do you see it?
<nathan__> its not there
<DBO> really?
<nathan__> yes
<DBO> ok no big deal
<nathan__> ok good
<DBO> go to System -> Administration -> Synaptic Package Manager
<DBO> sometimes my menus differ from users because I have a bad tendency to change things =P
<nathan__> ok
<DBO> Synaptic is the big scary brother of the add remove program you used earlier
<DBO> this thing shows you EVERYTHING you would want to know about software available to you
<DBO> in here we are going to go to Settings -> Repositories
<nathan__> ok
<DBO> and a now window will pop up
<DBO> there are 5 or so checkboxes
<DBO> go ahead and check them all =)
<DBO> then press the close button
<nathan__> breezy badger?
<DBO> oh thats why its not there, you are on 5.10
<nathan__> i take it i need these updates
<DBO> that came out a little less than two years ago
<nathan__> lol i just got it from a friend
<nathan__> but he said it was old
<nathan__> and u update it like every 6 months
<DBO> thats ok, nice thing about Ubuntu, you can upgrade it =)
<nathan__> ok so what i need to do is update ?
<DBO> yeah just close everything
<DBO> (except this chat)
<DBO> we will use the update manager
<DBO> is there System -> Administration -> Update Manager
<DBO> available to you?
<nathan__> ok so don't do anything with the other thing
<DBO> yep
<DBO> just close it all down
<nathan__> synaptic close right
<DBO> yep =)
<DBO> btw, are you on highspeed
<nathan__> satilite
<nathan__> about 150 down
<DBO> do you get charged by the bandwidth or is it unlimited?
<nathan__> i get charged if i got over but yeah I wont
<nathan__> cause i haven't downloaded in a long time
<nathan__> i get 80 GB a month
<DBO> ok well let me lay out the two options here
<nathan__> i use about 30 average
<nathan__> 228 megs
<DBO> option A) we go through the upgrade procedure, this means you dont have to reinstall but since badger is so old, we have to go badger -> dapper -> edgy -> feisty
<nathan__> damn
<DBO> the other option is to have you download the feisty install CD and reinstall
<DBO> which will save you bandwidth and probably time
<nathan__> ok so how do i do that?
<DBO> are you comfortable enough to be able to install it on your own?
<nathan__> lol i got this one didn't i LOL
<DBO> I wasnt sure
<nathan__> however i don't like the damn boot loader
<DBO> but yes you did =)
<DBO> I can show you how to make the boot loader pretty =)
<nathan__> i have windows XP, Vista, and this
<nathan__> i have acronis boot loader and i love it
<DBO> shhhh... those are heathen words around here =P
<nathan__> lol
<DBO> where do you live (need to know to get you a fast mirror)
<nathan__> West of Chicago about 50 Miles
<DBO> hey, Im in michigan =)
<nathan__> cool
<DBO> http://mirrors.cs.wmich.edu/ubuntu-releases/feisty/ubuntu-7.04-alternate-i386.iso
<nathan__> how big is this final going to be?
<DBO> there you go
<DBO> 1 CD worth
<nathan__> dvd or CD
<DBO> CD
<DBO> 700MB
<DBO> you have a CD burner?
<nathan__> yup
<nathan__> do i have the software on here?
<DBO> goodie =)
<DBO> yes you do
<nathan__> or do i have to download something?
<nathan__> sweet
<nathan__> what's it called?
<DBO> goooooood question
<nathan__> 2% done
<DBO> i think its called gnomebaker
<nathan__> lol ok?
<Spiker__> The basic one?
<Spiker__> Doesn't it do it from Nautlis?
<DBO> did it do that in breezy?
<Spiker__> Hmm
<Spiker__> If I remember correctly
<DBO> nathan__, when it finishes downloading see if right clicking on it gives an option to burn it
<DBO> it should...
<nathan__> im installing gnomebaker
<Spiker__> Or just open your cd drive in Nautlis, and it should have something for burning cd's
<DBO> well he needs to burn an ISO not a data CD
<Spiker__> Ah
<DBO> I know nautilus hasnt properly checked for that until recently
<Spiker__> Yeah
<nathan__> so i installed the software
<DBO> =)
<DBO> wanna see what my desktop looks like while you wait?
<nathan__> sure
<Spiker__> Quick question
<Spiker__> Is there some way I can have my wifi connect at startup without having to use the keyring manager?
<Spiker__> That's been bugging me for the longest time
<DBO> yeah, you need to specify its settings in /etc/network or whatever the hell it is called, which interface is your wireless?
<Spiker__> wlan0
<DBO> and WEP, WPA?
<Spiker__> wpa2
<nathan__> DBO be right back i need a cd
<Spiker__> All with a broadcom :/
<DBO> http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?p=2711949   <--- check that out Spiker__
<DBO> if you get lost feel free to ask
<DBO> http://img91.imageshack.us/my.php?image=screenshotwn7.png  <--- my previous desktop
<DBO> precious
<Spiker__> Ah, it's not a problem with connecting, I just want to know if there's someway to skip entering a password to unlock it
<DBO> thats how you do it
<DBO> if you add the information to /etc/network/interfaces
<DBO> it wont ask
<nathan__> pretty sweet picture DBO
<DBO> since Network Manager is no longer handling it (I hate that thing)
<DBO> nathan__, I love customizing =)
<nathan__> i can tell
<nathan__> someday lol
<nathan__> yeah this is not taking as along as i thought
<DBO> what, the download?
<nathan__> yeah
<nathan__> 20 percent
<nathan__> said an hour when i started
<nathan__> so what else do i need to know how to do?
<DBO> for now, you are doing well =)
<DBO> lets get feisty going
<LjL> ubotwo part
<alvins> hay alguien aqui?
<alvins> hello
<alvins> anybody here?
<nalioth> hi alvins
<alvins> hi
<alvins> how are you?
<nalioth> ok, what's up?
<alvins> i'm from venezuela
<alvins> i have a little question
<alvins> my english is not so good, but i'm work in it
<alvins> i've a laptop toshiba tecra a6 sp561
<alvins> what application a i need to install to monitoring my cpu, the frecuency and temperature?
<alvins> i think that the temperature is so hot and i can't monitoring it
<alvins> can you help me?
<nalioth> alvins: they weren't able to help you in #ubuntu ?
<azteech> hi everyone. Anyone here have a link to any howto's for dual booting 32- and 64-bit feisty?
#ubuntu-classroom 2007-05-27
<nathan__> hello?
<nathan__> DBA around
<nathan__> or DBO?
<LjL> ubotwo part
#ubuntu-classroom 2008-05-19
<voodoo> ompaul, i'm here
<ompaul> voodoo are you up to date with patches etc?
<voodoo> i've just updated all packages with synaptic
<voodoo> so, yes i'm up to date
<ompaul> ok so have you "openssh-server" installed on the machine you want to log into
<voodoo> yes
<voodoo> ompaul, i'm not really a newbie...
<voodoo> before updating openssh every worked fine
<voodoo> after update
<voodoo> on remote machine
<ompaul> so then you need to recreate the keys that is all
<voodoo> i did
<ompaul> and remove them from the far end machine
<voodoo> i can log locally using keys
<voodoo> i cannot log from another machine
<voodoo> using keys
<ompaul> the remote machine needs the new keys from the Client
<voodoo> erased all keys and copied the new one
<voodoo> & checked everything was allright
<voodoo> i changed the config line to PasswordAuth,.. = no
<ompaul> voodoo, I suggest you take it apart again, on both ends
<voodoo> and I get an error
<voodoo> permission denied (publickey)
<ompaul> voodoo, you then have not replaced them - so remove the .ssh/authorized_keys and remove the hosts file
<voodoo> ompaul, i did... trust me on that
<ompaul> think about it new setups work so why is your old one not
<voodoo> anyway... it's the hardy machine having problems connecting to... the other (a debian) works fine
<voodoo> the public key from the debian is stored in authorized_keys from the hardy
<ompaul> http://ubuntu-tutorials.com/2008/05/13/openssh-openssh-vulnerabilities-confirm-fix-instructions/
<artir_> -desktop
<artir_> #join uds-desktop
#ubuntu-classroom 2008-05-21
<billisnice> 8.04 no youtube sound
<artir> get the new flash beta
<artir> the deb is out i think
<billisnice> where is it at?
<artir> wait 1 sec
<billisnice> thank u
<artir> do you have a 64 bits sys?
<billisnice> no
<artir> http://launchpadlibrarian.net/14629821/flashplugin-nonfree_10.0.1.218ubuntu1_i386.deb
<artir> more info here
<artir> https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/intrepid/i386/flashplugin-nonfree/10.0.1.218ubuntu1
<artir> say thanks when it works :P
<billisnice> ok
<billisnice> it says error dependensy is not satisfied
<artir> ejej
<artir> billis, what does it say you need
<artir> (that package is from intrepid)
#ubuntu-classroom 2008-05-22
* You're now known as ubuntulog
<Foxandxss> :)
#ubuntu-classroom 2008-05-23
<xtrender> can anyone help me with svn..
<jrib> xtrender: ask a specific question...
<xtrender> i want to create a shared folder with a frien of mine..
<jrib> distributed versioning works much better imo, you should check out bzr
<jrib> http://bazaar-vcs.org/Documentation
<xtrender> but with bzr, he can acess my files if i am offlline?
<jrib> typically, you share changes when you are ready
<jrib> though you can use a centralized workflow too
<xtrender> what is that?
<jrib> check out http://bazaar-vcs.org/Workflows
<xtrender> the matter is that both needs to be connected... if i am disconnected.. he cant read the changes of project
<jrib> xtrender: yes, then that describes a centralized workflow
<jrib> you can use bzr for that, or svn like you wanted
<xtrender> tvm
#ubuntu-classroom 2008-05-24
<axr> ciao
#ubuntu-classroom 2008-05-25
<Thus0> hi
<Megaqwerty> greetings
#ubuntu-classroom 2009-05-18
 * wirechief-bughun is goes to lunch: Gone away for now
<pleia2> wirechief-bughun: please don't use away messages here :)
<jussi01> pleia2: *g* thats 2 of us who have mentioned it now...
<somaunn> hello everyone
<ikt> hi
<kimf> Just wondering about something in regard to the Packaging guide. And the updateting a package recipe.
<kimf> It says it doesn't build with pbuilder in intrepid, but I get an error when doing the debuild -S -sa step
<Ampelbein> kimf: hi, you can use #ubuntu-motu for such questions. this channel here is actually for classes.
<kimf> ah... ok :) I'll take it there then
<kimf> Thanks
<Ampelbein> np
#ubuntu-classroom 2009-05-19
* ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Ubuntu Classroom || https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Classroom || https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-classroom || Upcoming: 21st May, 18:00 UTC: Reviewing New Packages; 28th May, 00:00 UTC: Packaging Using CDBS; 29 May, 00:00 UTC: Q&A: To the source(Installing packages from source) || Run 'date -u' in a terminal to find out the UTC time
* ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Ubuntu Classroom || https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Classroom || https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-classroom || Upcoming: 21st May, 18:00 UTC: Reviewing New Packages; 28th May, 00:00 UTC: Packaging Using CDBS; 29 May, 00:00 UTC: Q&A: To the source (Installing packages from source) || Run 'date -u' in a terminal to find out the UTC time
<pleia2> if anyone is interested, a meeting of the -learning team is starting in #ubuntu-meeting now (-classroom is part of -learning)
<somaunn> hello everyone
<eddie1> i need help
<eddie1> i neeed help
<pleia2> eddie1: this channel is for classes, tech support is in #ubuntu :)
<eddie1> okweeeqwe
#ubuntu-classroom 2009-05-21
<mok0> We'll wait just a couple of minutes to allow people to show up...
<mok0> Hi! Welcome to the class! Can we have a count of hands, please?
 * asomething raises hand
 * Rail waves
 * weboide says 'me!'
<mok0> This class is going to be about packaging and reviewing packages on the REVU site.
<mok0> We will look at some uploads at the REVU site, developed and maintained by MOTUs... you are probably all familiar with it... http://revu.ubuntuwire.org/
<mok0> Reviewing other peoples packages is a great way to learn. First of all, you can learn new tricks and see how others solve problems. But you can also learn from mistakes, and via looking at many packages will familiarize you with the Ubuntu Policy Manual http://people.ubuntu.com/~cjwatson/ubuntu-policy/policy.html/ which of course is the packager's bible :-)
<mok0> That is a modified version of the Debian Policy Manual found here: http://www.debian.org/doc/debian-policy/
<mok0> Another good place to get information is the MOTU packaging guide: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/PackagingGuide
<mok0> Any questions at this point?
<mok0> OK let's get started. Let's go to REVU and select some package to look at. REVU allows everyone to leave comments, but you need to lock in with your Launchpad ID using the OpenID system.
<mok0> Does everyone have a Launchpad ID? (Just checking :-))
 * Rail has
 * weboide also
<mok0> Cool. I thought we would combine this tutorial with the useful and let uploaders benefit by getting their packages reviewed. Therefore, we will leave our comments once we have reviewed the package(s).
<mok0> Any suggestions for packages to look at? Perferably some that haven't been reviewed before
<mok0> How about "gammapage"
<mok0> The first thing I generally do before spending time on a package, is to check if it's already been uploaded to Debian, or if there's been an ITP bug filed. That indicates that someone else might be working on the package, in which case there might be a conflict of interest and/or a duplicate effort == waste of someones time.
<asomething> sure
<mok0> So let's look for gammapage here: http://ftp-master.debian.org/new.html and http://www.de.debian.org/devel/wnpp/being_packaged and just do a search for the package name in the browser.
<mok0> What's the verdict?
<weboide> not in debian ;)
<mok0> Right
<mok0> The next thing I do is to du a cursory check if this software can be distributed at all. Otherwise, there's no need spending time on it. We absolutely need a file -- normally called COPYING -- that grants Ubuntu permission to distribute the software. So let's browse down REVU's html pages into the directory and see if this permission is present.
<mok0> (Select the LATEST upload of gammapage)
<mok0> This one looks ok!
<weboide> Question: Do every src files need a license header also? What if they don't?
<mok0> Answer: Ideally, yes.
<mok0> It's something that the packager might negotiate with upstream about
<mok0> The argument is, if someone lifts a file and uses it in another project, it will not contain information of where it came from, who wrote it and what the copyright is
<mok0> OK, let's move on
<mok0> My next step is generally to download the package. I find the link to the relevant .dsc file, right click -> copy the link. Then I move into a terminal, and type "dget -ux " + right-click -> paste.
<mok0> I usually do this in /tmp :-)
<mok0> A bit about what has been downloaded to your machine: A source package is mainly composed of the pristine tarball and a diff.gz file containing the work of the packager. While it is possible for the diff.gz file to patch everything in the source tree, the current paradigm is that nothing outside the debian/ directory must be touched.
<mok0> So, now let's check to see that nothing else is in the .diff.gz file:
<mok0> lsdiff -z <package>.diff.gz
<mok0> Is everyone with me at this point?
 * Rail is
 * weboide is too
 * tuantub :D
<mok0> What's the situation with gammapage_0.5.1-0ubuntu1.diff.gz ?
<asomething> looks like there are some direct changes to the source in the diff.gz
<mok0> It does indeed
<weboide> diffstat says 1418 insertions into gammapage file. Big change.
<mok0> Can you see what's going on?
<mok0> Exactly. Looks like the file gammapage is not in the tarball
<Rail> actually the file was renamed
<weboide> yeah, filename is gammapage-0.5.1/GAMMApage
<Rail> mv GAMMApage gammapage
<mok0> Well copied
<mok0> Do we like this way of doing things?
<Rail> symlink would be better at least
<loic-m> nope, better patch in debian/
<mok0> loic-m: yes
<asomething> it would be better to do it in debian/rules i'd think, no patch needed
<mok0> And the question is if the app should be renamed at all
<loic-m> indeed, we'd get a different command than other distros
<mok0> There's not anything in policy saying that we can't have caps in application names
<tuantub> what is when we use dpatch insteed ?
<mok0> So this is something we need to tell the uploader.
<mok0> tuantub: Hm, it's not worth adding a patch system to do something as simple as that.
<mok0> If we _must_ rename it, better do it in debian/rules
<mok0> But I would choose to let upstream decide how the name of the app should be spelled
<mok0> Now we can focus attention on the files debian/ -- we won't allow anything else to be modified by the packager in a new package.
<mok0> setup.py is a special case perhaps :-)
<tuantub> mok0: so far i know, we'd better use dpatch than touching the source :-/
<mok0> tuantub: that's true, but sometimes it's a pain to patch files used by the build
<tuantub> mok0: i think we can tell the rules to patch before building ?
<mok0> tuantub: we can
<asomething> the diff in setup.py is only about the renaming. if they drop the rename, they don't need it
<mok0> asomething: right
<mok0> So that problem goes away
 * tuantub :)
<Rail> moving the file after "python setup.py install..." is the solution
<mok0> Rail: yes
<mok0> Rail: But I think it is wrong to rename the app, actually. As loic-m said, the app might have the original name in other distros
<mok0> I generally write my review in a local file and paste it into the browser later. I have one-too-many times experienced that the browser quits on me... and a lengthy review has been lost!
<mok0> Do we have a volunteer to write down the review, and post it later?
<Rail> ok, if you want to rename it, moving is better than patch
<mok0> Rail: yes
<tuantub> Question: must we build the packages on the newest release of ubuntu ?
 * asomething will post the review
<mok0> asomething, thanks.
<mok0> tuantub: Generally, yes
<mok0> tuantub: but if you don't have a karmic builder, never mind for now
<mok0> Next we do a cursory check of the files in debian/. We need at least five files to be present there: control, changelog, copyright, config and rules. Otherwise, the package won't build!
<mok0> The the de-facto requirement is to have a debian/watch file also. I require it when advocating :-) ... the exception being when upstream's sources are only available from a VCS.
<Rail> hmm, lintian file is 0 bytes, but I can see at least one warning regarding standards-version...
<asomething> on debian.mentors most sponsors require an empty watch file commenting why one can't be used
<Rail> /see/predict/
<mok0> Right. The current version is 3.8.1
<tuantub> mok0: debian/config ?
<asomething> Rail: I find running "lintian -iI --pedantic" more useful
<mok0> tuantub: it's set to 5, which is ok IMO... if you don't require anything from the later versions of debhelper
<tuantub> mok0: did you mean compat ?
<mok0> tuantub: yes, sorry
<tuantub> mok0: ;)
<Rail> asomething: a'm talking about the lintian output on the revu site
<loic-m> Rail: package was uploaded when version vas still 3.8.0, no?
<loic-m> s/vas/was/
<Rail> ah, yes
<asomething> Rail: REVU probably only runs it at the up load time
<mok0> loic-m: yes, but it needs to be updated for karmic now
<mok0> Running lintian with the -I switch gives some points to discus
<mok0> s
<mok0> Generally, for packages in REVU, I like them to be completely clean
<loic-m> mol0: OTOH, I'm not sure it's so great when contibutors who didn't get any review in 6 month (or more) get a sudden review with only "You should target karmic" (when the upload was good at the time)
<asomething> Build-Depends-Indep should be used
<mok0> loic-m: no :-)
<loic-m> (sorry, I've got gloves today ;) )
<mok0> loic-m: but it should be on the list of things to do
<mok0> The lintian report sometimes gives a convenient outset for some comments in the review. But copy-pasting the lintian report is not a good idea. When reviewing, your role is that of a teacher and mentor. You need to communicate the problems in a clear way, and perhaps give hints at solutions. You must be helpful and friendly in your comments, but don't take over the packaging! The uploader must do the work.
<asomething> loic-m: sure if that's the only comment
<mok0> What about debian/rules?
<loic-m> mok0: what if an uploader doesn't answer neither review or emails for month but you'd like to get the package in Ubuntu?
<mok0> loic-m: let's discuss that after class :-)
<loic-m> mok0: ok
<Rail> i'd prefer to use cdbs to avoid copy/paste in debian/rules :)
<asomething> well something is amiss, it's FTBFS in a pbuilder (sorry, if that's getting ahead).
<mok0> Rail: well, that's the choice of the packager
<mok0> debian/rules contains boilerplate comments at the top, they must go
<mok0> Otherwise, it's nice and clean, good work
<asomething> http://paste.ubuntu.com/177375/
<mok0> asomething: yes the building is not working
<stefanlsd> mok0: do you know where we can find more information about each dh_ call?  (besides man page)
<mok0> And it's because of debian/rules
<mok0> And it's because of debian/control sorry
<Rail> i'd add a blank line between install: and binary-indep: :)
<mok0> stefanlsd: no, it's badly missing. I've looked at the source once in a while
<Rail> stefanlsd: vi =dh_whatever ;)
<mok0> Rail: me too, but it doesn't matter
<Rail> +1
<mok0> This is a python package, so we should use python_central
<mok0> ... or rather the uploader should fix it.
<mok0> We can leave a URL in the comment: http://wiki.debian.org/DebianPython/NewPolicy
<stefanlsd> http://python-modules.alioth.debian.org/python-central_howto.txt
<mok0> ... and we need a "XS-Python-Version:" field in debian/control
<mok0> stefanlsd: thx
<mok0> The package also needs a watch file
<mok0> asomething: are you up to speed with the review? You might pastebin it and we can take a look
<asomething> mok0: sorry, I was just going to go back into the log and write it when we were done
<mok0> asomething: ah ok
<mok0> After looking at the files in debian/ I usually do a build
<mok0> It is absolutely recommended that you use a pbuilder , cowbuilder og sbuilder for that
<Rail> (pbuilder-dist is the easiest, IMHO)
<mok0> It is
<mok0> Hm. I'm a bit puzzled at the dh_testroot error
<mok0> Well, if you remove it from the clean: target, it builds
 * tuantub_ :D
<mok0> Now finally, any comments about the description field in debian/control?
<weboide> the short description isn't very meaningful?
<mok0> right
<mok0> ... and the long description ain't very long :-)
<weboide> true
<mok0> The uploader has written a manpage, which I usually thank them for especially. But this one is very short as well
<mok0> A man page should say HOW the program is to be used, not only WHAT it does
<mok0> It should describe what it does while it's working. Will it change the gamma of the monitor live, and let you decide when you like it? Will it show some number and let you choose it? Will it fry my monitor?
<mok0> So while it's good that uploaders write a manpage, it should be a _good_ manpage also
<mok0> So, at this point, I think we have enough for a lengthy review...
<asomething> Alright. Here's what I have so far. Anything missing? http://paste.ubuntu.com/177390/
<mok0> asomething: that is very good!
<mok0> asomething: also tell him to remove the boilerplate comment in debian/rules (at the top)
<asomething> mok0: will do!
<Rail> no Vcs-* in debian/control, must be :)
<weboide> asomething: and maybe also a more meaningful short-description
<mok0> right, leave this link:  http://www.debian.org/doc/developers-reference/best-pkging-practices.html#bpp-pkg-synopsis
<mok0> Well, perhaps it's time to end the lesson. Any questions?
<asomething> mok0: thanks!
<tuantub_> mok0: thanks ;)
<weboide> Is it required to package the lastest version of the software for the package to get included into ubuntu?
<Rail> mok0: tahnk you very much
<loic-m> thanks mok0
<weboide> thanks for the lesson mok0
<mok0> My pleasure! Thanks for coming along!
<mok0> Now for the question we postponed
 * mok0 searches scrollback
<weboide> gotta go now, thank you again mok0 , see you all!
<mok0> hm can't locate it
<mok0> Ah
<mok0> what if an uploader doesn't answer neither review or emails for month but you'd like to get the package in Ubuntu?
<mok0> If the uploader doesn't reply in a reasonable time, you are free to take over the package
<mok0> Anyone can make a new upload
<mok0> In fact, I'd like to encourage everyone to grab packages from REVU that are idling, because MOTUs and others have already spent time reviewing them
<loic-m> mok0: in that case, the one making the new upload can just either grab the old upload and improve it, or do it from scratch. Is there a copyright problem doing the first?
<mok0> loic-m: No
<mok0> loic-m: usually the packager has  used a free software license for the packaging
<mok0> loic-m: I think it's fair to continue the work on the uploaded package
<mok0> If the uploader is MIA the package is fair game
<loic-m> mok0: ok, thanks. And if no license is made for the packaging, it's still ok (I guess the copyright problem might only occur for man pages, since they're shipped, no)?
<mok0> loic-m: if the previous uploader has written a manpage, you should maintain his/her name on the copyright, and add your own if you make additions and changes
<loic-m> ok
<mok0> loic-m: it's also about giving credit where it's due
<loic-m> indeed
<mok0> otoh, uploaders are also making use of a service where they get (free) reviews
<mok0> so if they loose interest, it's only fair that someone else can take over
<mok0> many packages in "needs work" are in pretty good shape, they just need someone to push it along
<stefanlsd> mok0: it feels like motu's are reluctant to advocate packages...  (maybe for fear of missing something, someone else picks up on?)  - how can we change this / improve it...
<mok0> stefanlsd: It's true
<mok0> stefanlsd: one reason is that not many motus are actively reviewing
<stefanlsd> mok0: and maybe, what kind of impact do we have on universe if a 'not so great - but working package' makes it into universe?
<mok0> ... so if the probability of finding one reviewer is p, then the probability of finding two reviewers is p**2
<Rail> becoming a motu is the solution :)
<mok0> stefanlsd: I don't think it matters much.
<mok0> But our hope is that uploaders stick around and care for their packages
<mok0> It's been discussed that some kind of commitment should be required, but it's uncertain how that can be implemented
<stefanlsd> i agree, but i think its also unfair for uploaders to ask and ask, and nobody really looks at it. they get tired of trying, and move on
<mok0> stefanlsd: indeed.
<stefanlsd> (different if comments were made by reviewer and they haven't responded)
<Rail> yes, someties passing NEW queue at Debian is easier than getting revu...
<mok0> But we do have REVU day every friday, and this is a good time to show up on #ubuntu-motu and ask for feedback
<stefanlsd> also maybe i think we need to be less harsh on packages?  if they have the basics right, copyright is ok, package builds... lets get it into ubuntu. chances are, for the little things, the uploader will improve as he goes, or users now using it will file a bug and fix it...
<mok0> I disagree, actually
<mok0> Once the package has been accepted, it will never improve
<mok0> It's much better to get the package in _perfect_ shape from the outset
<mok0> That also makes maintenance of it much simpler
<mok0> But I do understand the frustration
<stefanlsd> mok0: i agree with that, but to be honest, as a user.. i really just want to apt-get install somethingnew.   i guess its a balance...
<mok0> In fact, I think the packages that make it into Ubuntu are generally in much better shape than those coming from Debian.
<kklimonda> mok0: Do I have to add copyright file to every package if I split source package into few binary packages and they all depend on a package that has copyright (and links /usr/share/doc/package-foobar to single directory)?
<mok0> kklimonda: the dpkg-buildpackage system takes care of that
<mok0> kklimonda: you only need to make sure one debian/copyright file is there :-)
<asomething> mok0: but do we follow up with maintenance or let them bit rot?
<kklimonda> mok0: but I have few different packages - crawl-common, crawl-console, crawl-x11
<stefanlsd> mok0: again it may be so, but for the end user - if its not in the repo - ubuntu sucks. it doesnt even have X  (but i get the point of X man page not being complete or wrong and causing more frustration to users)
<kklimonda> mok0: crawl-common has all documentation files (including copyright) and /usr/share/doc/crawl-{console,x11} links to /usr/share/doc/crawl-common/
<mok0> asomething: maintenance, and that's the problem if the uploader abandons the package
<mok0> kklimonda: dpkg-buildpackage makes sure there's a copyright file in all
<mok0> stefanlsd: fortunately, we have the PPAs now
<stefanlsd> mok0: mmm. we need to incentivise reviewers somehow
<mok0> stefanlsd: true
<mok0> I have not been doing reviews yet for this cycle (because of work) but I will start again soon
<asomething> mok0: without having specific maintainers how do we go about getting people to make that commitment?
<mok0> asomething: good question!
<asomething> I wonder if there could be a way to automatically subscribe someone to the new packages bug page
<mok0> We do encourage people to get their packages into Debian, because they have a system of maintainership
<mok0> otoh getting packages into Debian is even more wait-ful
<mok0> So perhaps having a system of maintainership would be something to consider.
<mok0> One argument often heard from MOTUs is: "We have > 1000 packages to care for already, why should we have more?"
<asomething> mok0: my problem with debian.mentors hasn't actually been getting new packages in. they're exciting people want to sponsor. it's been getting sponsors for unsexy uploads, little upstream releases
<mok0> asomething: I've been able to get things uploaded only via being in a team
<mok0> s/uploaded/sponsored
<mok0> Unfortunately, Debian does not accept packages from Ubuntu directly
<asomething> it's the flip side of our more lose system. I can get smaller fixes into ubuntu much quicker. my packages often end up ahead in ubuntu as I get frustrated waiting for the changes to make it in debian
<mok0> asomething: indeed
<mok0> What we need are some DDs/MOTUs working across the aile
<mok0> Someone who would take the responsibility of sponsoring -0ubuntu1 packages, and naming a maintainer
<asomething> definitely, one day I'll make DD, but hopefully I'll be a MOTU much sooner
<mok0> asomething: sound great!
<asomething> there was a program for awhile, but it seems to have died out. the list still exists
<mok0> asomething: what program are you thinking of?
<asomething> mok0: http://wiki.debian.org/Utnubu
<mok0> Ah that. It's been dead as long as I remember
<asomething> ya, I CCed the list on a debian RFS and people seemed surprised that it still existed
<mok0> Well, I think there was bad blood for a while after Ubuntu forked off and took some of the best developers
<stefanlsd> mok0: http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=522138     (whats the status on the ITP? - how do i know if someone is working on it?)
<mok0> stefanlsd: It's only a few months old. I think you should mail the guy
<asomething> stefanlsd: you could check http://mentors.debian.net/ and see if there's been an upload as well
<stefanlsd> mok0: who do i mail, the owner?
<stefanlsd> Rail and I actually already did it for Ubuntu - http://revu.ubuntuwire.com/p/gears
<mok0> stefanlsd: yes
<asomething> stefanlsd: might be worth mentioning it on the debian bug. if nothing else, it might be helpful for them
<mok0> It is possible to get a package into Ubuntu, but if it get's into Debian later, it will likely be overridden
<mok0> ... which is kinda a waste of work
<asomething> well, I must be going... thanks for the great session, mok0!
<mok0> so it's better to communicate with the Debian folks
<mok0> OK see you later!
<stefanlsd> mok0: kk. thanks. mailed the owner
<mok0> stefanlsd: good luck!
<Rail> see you all, mok0 tahnks a lot
<mok0> Byebye!
<Rail> zzz...
#ubuntu-classroom 2009-05-22
<ubuntu> hello
* ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Ubuntu Classroom || https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Classroom || https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-classroom || Upcoming: 28th May, 00:00 UTC: Packaging Using CDBS; 29 May, 00:00 UTC: Q&A: To the source (Installing packages from source) || Run 'date -u' in a terminal to find out the UTC time
#ubuntu-classroom 2009-05-24
<Higor> Boa Noite..
<Higor> oi podemos ?
<Higor> oi podemos ?
<Higor> podemos ?
<ubuntu> hello
<n00b-untu> hello
<n00b-untu> \o/
#ubuntu-classroom 2010-05-24
<ZachK_> hello mintos
<dlacklight> What is this about?
<dlacklight> What is this about, can anybody tell me?
<dlacklight> Explain a typical classroom session.
<ColonelPanik> hold on a minute dlacklight
<pleia2> dlacklight: http://wiki.ubuntu.com/Classroom has all the info, including links to past sessions that you can see
#ubuntu-classroom 2010-05-25
<paultag> pleia2, poke
<pleia2> paultag: hey
<paultag> pleia2, two things, first webcal. I'm doing that tonight. Second is about the UCLP
<pleia2> yay, ok
<paultag> pleia2, how much stuff was produced in the way of guides, lessons and other fun materials?
<pleia2> paultag: just some sysadmin courses so far that we probably need to convert to mallard
<pleia2> linked here, to doctormo's blog: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Learning/SystemAdminTopics
<pleia2> (we'll have a better, more permanent place once we get coordination with -doc and -manual sorted)
<paultag> pleia2, I am working on creating a network for a ton of f/oss'd materials. I wrote the shell uploader and serverside daemon, and it "works"
<paultag> Ah
<paultag> pleia2, I was wondering if I could sap stuff ( with attribution, duh ) into the doc repo
<pleia2> we're working on a content pool with -doc and -manual so we can share more easily
<pleia2> care to join us instead of creating your own?
<pleia2> the licensing is cc-by-sa so it's fine
<paultag> http://doc.whube.com/ <-- pleia2 I wrote that while I was in flight
<pleia2> ah
<paultag> pleia2, and yeah, it's just that the daemon is really really beta
<pleia2> see, we're working on this content pool so we stop having documentation all over the internet :)
<paultag> doh
<paultag> pleia2, it has a JSON RESTful interface and I'm making a local GUI front end, like the software store
<pleia2> you really want to talk to the -manual folks, they're in the middle of designing a web gui for the content stuff
<paultag> fucking hell
<paultag> I wasted a perfectly good flight on this :/
<pleia2> http://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2010/05/ubuntu-support-and-learning-center.html
<pleia2> I don't know how much progress they have actually made, you may both be at similar points, certainly could collaborate
<pleia2> (we should move this discussion to #ubuntu-learning or #ubuntu-manual)
<paultag> pleia2, I'm going to be honest, my upload system is amazing
<paultag> OK
#ubuntu-classroom 2010-05-26
<dado55> can somebody help me with ubuntu installation?
<sokeman> hellow?
<sokeman> does anyone have a touch screen running in lucid?
#ubuntu-classroom 2010-05-27
<buzzard> does anyone know if there are any sessions scheduled for User Days on June 5?
<mhall119> there will be multiple sessions
<mhall119> but there's no schedule for them yet
<buzzard> mhall119: thanks, this will be my first one and I'm anxious to see the list of topics.
<mhall119> it'll probably be next week before the schedule comes together
<buzzard> i've read several of the transcripts from the last one; they were very helpful
<Pendulum> buzzard: glad you found them useful!
<qwebirc56426> where do I learn to package debs
<yann2> hi
<yann2> well that's convenient, I was just going to need to learn about packaging :)
<eagles0513875> hey guys :) i know im early for the session
<yann2> btw does anyone mind if I log the session?
<eagles0513875> yann2: i think all ubuntu channels are logged
<eagles0513875> im not an ubuntu staffer so i dunno
<eagles0513875> but i dont think they would mind
<yann2> ok :) it s just the freenode rules that states "thou should warn if thou log" :)
<MTecknology> !log
<ubot2> For Ubuntu Classroom logs, please visit http://irclogs.ubuntu.com
<ddecator> yann2: a lot of people unofficially log channels
<MTecknology> just don't make them public - it's assumed everyone logs for themselves
<ddecator> right
<yann2> which is why I was asking :)
<yann2> but not needed apparently
<eagles0513875> hey guys what time is 1800 UTC
<eagles0513875> for GMT
<User376> i am trying to use Quassel IRC client to connect to this channel but am not able to... any tips? I have done the regular, created a nick, registered it etc.
<zerointeger> is this working?
<zerointeger> is this working
<nigelb> zerointeger: um, if you mean if we can see your post "is this working" twice, yes it is.
<zerointeger> a coworker told me people are helping with package creation in this channel today?
<zerointeger> anyone?
<Thomas_Zahreddin> as far as i understand the session starts in 54 min.
<zerointeger> thanks
<jetienne> i have been told in 1h54m
<jetienne> [17:08] <dholbach> mdeslaur will give a Packaging Training session about "Preparing Security Updates" in #ubuntu-classroom at 18:00 UTC
<zerointeger> so does that mean I can get assistance on creating a .dep package for a pam module I patched?
<jetienne> zerointeger: no idea if you can get it here. #ubuntu-motu or irc.debian.org/#debian-mentors may help tho
<mdeslaur> So...is it time?
<ayan> i think so!
<mdeslaur> Great! I'll start then
<mdeslaur> Hi, I'm Marc from the Ubuntu Security Team. Today I will be talking about producing security updates for stable Ubuntu releases.
<mdeslaur> This won't be a hands on session, rather, it will be an informative talk about the environments and tools the security team uses, and how those tools help us to produce updates.
<mdeslaur> This information can be used as a reference to set up your own environment to produce updates for all the stable releases.
<mdeslaur> First, an overview of our setup, and after I will explain how you can set it up yourselves.
<mdeslaur> Since we currently produce security updates for Dapper, Hardy, Jaunty, Karmic, Lucid and Maverick, we need to be able to build and test in all those environments.
<mdeslaur> The security team uses KVM virtual machines for testing, and schroots with sbuild for building and testing. Our schroots used to use LVM snapshots, but now with Lucid we use aufs schroots, which are easier to set up.
<mdeslaur> Because we test all our security updates on amd64 and i386 before publishing, we use amd64-capable hardware and the amd64 version of Ubuntu. That way, we can use both amd64 and i386 virtual machines and schroots. Of course, this isn't a requirement to build security updates, but helps in making sure we are not introducing platform-specific regressions.
<mdeslaur> Releasing security updates is very different from uploading a package to a dev release, where system breakage and regressions are part of the development process. If you upload a package to the dev release and something breaks, you can simply upload a package that fixes the breakage.
<mdeslaur> Users of the dev release are mostly technical people who readily accept breakage as a compromise for running the latest and greatest.
<mdeslaur> Once we press the figurative big red button to release a security update to a stable release, ~12 million Ubuntu users will be installing it in the next few hours. This is a user base that has zero tolerance for updates breaking their system, and any regressions are likely to reflect badly on Ubuntu's reputation.
<mdeslaur> Regression testing is _the_ most important part of producing security updates and is what takes up most of the time.
<mdeslaur> Now, back to setting up the environment:
<mdeslaur> My colleague jdstrand wrote up an excellent wiki page on how to set up a virtual machine environment like the security team uses. It is available here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/TestingEnvironment
<mdeslaur> Basically, we have a tool called vm-new that is a wrapper script around soren's excellent vmbuilder tool. With this, we create a whole set of "clean" virtual machines, one for i386 and one for amd64, for each Ubuntu release.
<mdeslaur> Once we have the "clean" virtual machines set up, we copy them over to a temporary set of VMs that we can install stuff in, run our testing scripts, and ultimately destroy how we see fit. Once we've tested our updates, we simply erase the temporary set of VMs and use a script to copy the "clean" ones over again.
<mdeslaur> Doing this allows us to always start with a "known good" image, and allows us to reproduce our tests at will.
<mdeslaur> Personally, I always get a transparent mouse working in my "clean" virtual machines. I do this by installing the xserver-xorg-input-vmmouse package.
<mdeslaur> With lucid, this works out of the box, but in previous releases you needed to configure an adequate xorg.conf file. For dapper, there was no xserver-xorg-input-vmmouse package in the archive, but you can find one I made for it in my PPA here: https://launchpad.net/~mdeslaur/+archive/ppa?field.series_filter=dapper
<mdeslaur> To set up the schroots, my colleague jdstrand again has wrote an excellent wiki page here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/BuildEnvironment
<mdeslaur> Once the schroots are set up, we can simply launch a command like "schroot -c jaunty-amd64 -u root" to enter a jaunty schroot and test utilities and proof of concepts, run some testing scripts, or try and reproduce an issue someone has reported.
<mdeslaur> Are there any questions so far?
<mdeslaur> ok, moving on...
<mdeslaur> To ease the process we use when building security updates, and to mimic the build process of the official build servers, we wrote a tool called "umt". This is the main tool we use daily to produce security updates, and it requires having schroots set up, and a few other dependencies.
<mdeslaur> There are instructions on the following wiki page that detail some of the steps necessary to set it up: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/BuildEnvironment
<mdeslaur> The umt tool has the following commands: search, download, changelog, source, binary, build, build-orig, sign, check, compare-log, compare-bin, repo, upload. These commands illustrate basically the whole process we use to produce an update.
<mdeslaur> search: This command will search the repos and tell us what the best source package is for each release. This will also warn us when a newer version is currently in -proposed.
<mdeslaur> Security updates are always built using the latest -updates release, and not the -proposed pocket, but we need to know about what is in -proposed so we can make sure our package version will trump it and make sure we add a note to the -proposed package's bug report.
<mdeslaur> download: this command will download a particular package for each release. For example, if I type "umt download gedit", it will create a directory for each release, download the corresponding source package for that release and unpack it. In one simple command, I have source trees for all releases we need to patch.
<mdeslaur> Once I've searched for a package and downloaded it, I'm ready to patch it.
<mdeslaur> What's special about producing security updates, is we get to work on every single package in Ubuntu. We need to learn _every_ patch system in the archive.
<mdeslaur> Luckily, my colleague kees and a few others wrote a great tool called "what-patch", available in the ubuntu-dev-tools package that simplifies trying to figure out what patch system a particular package uses. I simply need to enter the source tree and launch the "what-patch" command to see what patch system is being used.
<mdeslaur> From there, I use dpatch-edit-patch, cdbs-edit-patch, quilt-edit-patch or other similar tools to quickly apply and adjust security patches to the package. I tag all patches as per DEP3: http://dep.debian.net/deps/dep3/
<mdeslaur> Tagging patches really helps to figure out where a patch came from in case of a regression. It also helps a lot when reviewing other people's contributions.
<mdeslaur> The approach used when producing security updates for stable releases is to always backport the minimum fix necessary to fix the issue instead of trying to update the packages to a more recent version.
<mdeslaur> Why do we always backport patches? Newer versions of software may need updated libraries and dependencies, might break API/ABI, may introduce configuration file changes, need a lot more testing than a simple fix to the existing version, and, most importantly, newer versions may introduce new bugs!
<mdeslaur> Are there any questions so far?
<mdeslaur> ok, moving along...
<mdeslaur> Once my patches are added, I go back to the UMT tool:
<mdeslaur> changelog: this command is run from inside the source tree, and spawns the dch command with an appropriate security update version number and pocket already filled out.
<mdeslaur> build: this command will call the source and binary commands in order. The source command will build a source package in a directory called....source! A .debdiff file will also be in the source directory for analysis.
<mdeslaur> The binary command will use sbuild in the schroots to build the package with dependancy calculation that approximates what the official builders do. The resulting binary packages will be in the directory called "binary". There is logic in the umt script that automatically determines what release we are building for based on the directory and the changes file and uses the appropriate schroot.
<mdeslaur> build-orig: This command will download the previous release of the package, will build it and discard it in order to get the build log. When building security updates for stable releases, and backporting patches, it is very important to compare the build log of the original package with the build log of the patches package.
<mdeslaur> s/patches/patched/
<mdeslaur> This helps to spot compiler warnings with backports, helps spot missing files in the updates package, and also helps spot regressions when the package runs it's test suite. Doing this has saved our skin many times in the past.
<mdeslaur> compare-log: This command will compare the build log of the previous release with the build log of the current (patched) package. UMT will try and standardize and normalize the build logs before doing a diff on them so we can easily see only what's relevant.
<mdeslaur> sign: This command will sign the source package that is in the source directory.
<mdeslaur> check: This command will perform a great big series of sanity checks on the package before we upload it into the archive. Basically, every time we've screwed up in the past, we've added logic to this check so it wouldn't happen again. :)
<mdeslaur> It includes checks for: making sure the changelog got updates, making sure the pocket is -security, making sure the version number got incremented and is more recent than what's currently in the archive, making sure the patches are all tagged properly, making sure the patch system was used, making sure we don't have quilt directories in our patch, etc.
<mdeslaur> compare-bin: This command will download the previous version of the binaries, perform an analysis on them and perform the same analysis on the binaries that we've just compiled. It checks for: missing files, changed library symbols, etc.
<mdeslaur> repo: This command will copy the binaries that we've just produced into a local repo, so they are accessible to our schroots and our virtual machines for testing purposes. This ensures our updates work properly with apt-get and update manager.
<mdeslaur> At this point in time, we would perform testing procedures on our new packages, which I'll get to in a few minutes.
<mdeslaur> upload: This command will upload our packages to the Ubuntu security private PPA for building, after performing a few last-minute sanity checks to make sure nobody uploaded a more recent version while we were working on our updates. (This has happened before!)
<mdeslaur> Once the package has been uploaded to the security PPA, and has been built, _we perform testing a second time on the actual binaries_. This makes sure the actual bits that have been produced by the build system are regression-free. We have had issues in the past where minute differences between local builds and official builds have introduced regressions.
<mdeslaur> Are there any questions so far?
<Thomas_Zahreddin> yes
<mdeslaur> Thomas_Zahreddin: shoot
<Thomas_Zahreddin> did not read all since i came a little late:
<Thomas_Zahreddin> how do you automate your tests - what tools you use?
<mdeslaur> Thomas_Zahreddin: I'm getting to that, wait a few minutes and see if I answer your question
<mdeslaur> ok, moving along...
<mdeslaur> So, how do we test packages for regressions?
<mdeslaur> The security team maintains a large collection of testing scripts we have wrote in the following repository: https://launchpad.net/qa-regression-testing
<mdeslaur> The repository contains testing scripts, a lot of information on how to use test suites of particular packages, how to reproduce certain environments, and any other information we think is pertinent.
<Thomas_Zahreddin> mdeslaur: thanks
<mdeslaur> Basically, every time we produce a security update for a package, we write a test script that will test the codepath that we've touched. Since we need to test for multiple releases * multiple archs, and test our local build and the official build, writing a test script is the only way to ensure that everything gets tested properly.
<mdeslaur> Thomas_Zahreddin: welcome :)
<mdeslaur> When possible, we will use the upstream's test suite. Some are already built into the package, in which case we try to backport not only the security fixes, but the upstream tests that go with it.
<mdeslaur> Some packages contain a test suite, but will still build successfully when the test suite fails. In this case, comparing the build logs before and after the update during our process will spot any failing items.
<mdeslaur> Even when a package has an extensive test suite, we still write testing scripts for sanity testing basic functionnality once the package gets installed.
<mdeslaur> Here is an example of test script we use with apache: http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-bugcontrol/qa-regression-testing/master/annotate/head:/scripts/test-apache2.py
<mdeslaur> Some of the test scripts are quite simple, but some are getting complex...it's a matter of what we want to test for each particular security update. Of course, the more we do, the more tests get added.
<mdeslaur> Other teams within Ubuntu has started using and contributing to our test scripts also, which is great.
<mdeslaur> s/has/have/
<mdeslaur> I am looking forward to community participation in writing test script for non-Canonical supported packages (essentially what used to be called Universe). sbeattie has done a training session on how to write scripts for the qa-regression-testing suite, which is archived somewhere and is a great read for getting involved.
<mdeslaur> So, basically, patching the package itself is only a small part of the whole security update process. The important and time-consuming part when producing updates for stable releases is testing, testing, and more testing.
<mdeslaur> I hope this overview of the tools and environment the security team uses was useful and can be used as a guide to get your own environment set up. If you have any questions at all about Ubuntu security, or what I've discussed today, please don't hesitate to come over to #ubuntu-hardened and ask away!
<mdeslaur> Now it's time for the question period!
<mdeslaur> any questions?
<mdeslaur> not all at once, please! :)
<mdeslaur> ok, thanks everyone!
<Thomas_Zahreddin> mdeslaur: thank you
<Thomas_Zahreddin> mdeslaur: could you please give a little insight into your build scripts?
<Thomas_Zahreddin> i think most of the magic happens there (and also bzr is very important i suppose)
<mdeslaur> Thomas_Zahreddin: sure. Do you mean the security team's UMT script?
<Thomas_Zahreddin> yepp
<mdeslaur> Thomas_Zahreddin: it's simply a wrapper around everything we do when making security updates
<mdeslaur> Thomas_Zahreddin: we kept doing the same things over and over, like downloading source packages for each release, etc.
<mdeslaur> Thomas_Zahreddin: so we scripted as much as possible to simplify the specific task of producing security updates
<Thomas_Zahreddin> mdeslaur: sure, I'm thinking of the usage of hudson (apache) for this task
<mdeslaur> Unfortunately, I'm unaware of hudson
<Thomas_Zahreddin> http://hudson-ci.org/
<Thomas_Zahreddin> Â apt-get update; apt-get install hudsonÂ 
<mdeslaur> hmm...looks interesting for a "daily ppa" type of situation
<mdeslaur> Thomas_Zahreddin: I'm not sure how that would work in a security update situation though
<Thomas_Zahreddin> mdeslaur: i suppose it is not as fast (and flexible) like 'small' scripts (umt)
<Thomas_Zahreddin> mdeslaur: but it offers a great user interface and very clear oversight - like which tests are run, failed etc.
<mdeslaur> Thomas_Zahreddin: I'm afraid I can't comment on how hudson would work in a security-update type scenario
<mdeslaur> Thomas_Zahreddin: as I don't know enough about it
<Thomas_Zahreddin> i see, of course.
<Thomas_Zahreddin> mdeslaur: so you did no evaluation for your build tool chain (i suppose) ?
<mdeslaur> Thomas_Zahreddin: we try and mimick the ubuntu builders as much as possible, so no, we have not looked at hudson
<Thomas_Zahreddin> mdeslaur: thank you for your answers
<mdeslaur> Thomas_Zahreddin: you're welcome
<MTecknology> mdeslaur: just read up - thanks for the details of everything - I'd definitely like to find some time to help out with things
<mdeslaur> MTecknology: cool, thanks!
<ari-tczew> mdeslaur: are you (security team) testing package themselve? or you are base on uploader comments?
<ari-tczew> package patch *
<mdeslaur> ari-tczew: for canonical-supported packages (main), we test ourselves, for non-canonical supported packages (universe), we ask the uploader to describe the testing he has performed, and we take a look at the patch.
#ubuntu-classroom 2010-05-28
<SmartViking> Hi everyone
#ubuntu-classroom 2011-05-24
<alpha-aquilae> where can i gt some help in google chrome web browser? i can't find the right channel
<JackyAlcine> alpha-aquilae, for what exactly?
<JackyAlcine> Help for the browser or for something else?
<alpha-aquilae> JackyAlcine: yes the browser, i have font displaying issue
<JackyAlcine> you could try #chromium
#ubuntu-classroom 2011-05-25
<tacas> hello everybody , please i want to configure tacacs in ubuntu im asking if any idea
<joker__> I need help..
#ubuntu-classroom 2011-05-27
<jono> hi folks
<jono> lets give the latecomers a few mins to arrive
<MickeySoFine> hey jono
<jimbellinger> hi all.new to this ubuntu thing...lots of problems.
<Ideal> When can i ask a question ?
<jono> alright, folks
<jono> lets get this show on the road
<maco> jono: there's a thing going on?
<Mattman_> I'm hereHere for the Q&A
<jono> yep, a Q+A sessions mac
<jono> maco
* ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to the Ubuntu Classroom - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Classroom || Support in #ubuntu || Upcoming Schedule: http://is.gd/8rtIi || Questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat || Current Session: Q and A with Pete Graner the QA Engineering Manager and Jono Bacon the Ubuntu Community Manager - Instructors: pgraner, jono
<ClassBot> Logs for this session will be available at http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2011/05/27/%23ubuntu-classroom.html following the conclusion of the session.
<jono> welcome everyone to the Q+A session!
<jono> today the Q+A session is going to be about Quality Assurance and some of the changes we are making to improve Quality in Ubuntu
<jono> today the session will be a dual-Q+A for maximum Q+A goodness
<jono> both Pete Graner, QA Engineering Manager and myself will be answering questions
<jono> to participate, this is how you ask a question:
<jono>  1. Join #ubuntu-classroom-chat
<ClassBot> maco asked: hey pete, if you're QA Engineering Manager now, then who's running the Kernel team?
<pgraner> maco, I am still, doing two jobs
<jono>  2. Ask a question by typing 'QUESTION' and then your question:
<jono> e.g:
<jono> QUESTION: What is happening with foo?
<jono> alright, that's it
<jono> we are here for an hour, so get all your burning questions in!
<jono> I will give it a few mins for you to ask questions and then we will get going
<jono> alright!
<jono> lets roll!
<ClassBot> cprofitt asked: in what way can the loco teams best help the QA team at Canonical?
<jono> LoCo teams are an essential component in the Ubuntu community
<jono> and recently I have been blogging abut how we intend to grow LoCo teams in the community and help them be successful
<jono> LoCos often participate in in many different areas, of which QA is definitely one of them
<jono> as part of this work I am hiring a QA Community Contributor to help grow community in this area, including working with LoCo teams
<jono> pgraner, anything else from you/
<jono> ?
<jono> I assume not :-)
<ClassBot> Ideal asked: I want to know what does it mean code :Oneiric Ocelot in UBUNTU newest release?
<pgraner> jono, :) you know all the answers man
<jono> lol
<jono> Ideal, we tend to, and when I mean we, I mean Mark Shuttleworth, tend to name the release after animals
<jono> the recent trend has become impossible to pronounce and strange animals, of which this is a prime example :-)
<jono> so a release has a version number...e.g. 11.10, and an animal name...e.g. Oneiric Ocelot
<jono> simple as that :-)
<ClassBot> nigelb asked: What kind of people are you looking for with the new QA positions
<jono> pgraner, want to take this one?
<pgraner> jono, sure
<pgraner> jono, we are looking for hard core automated QA folks
<pgraner> we are looking for folks with 5 years of professional experience in a QA role
<pgraner> definately have to have python skills and experience with oss test suites LTP LDTP etc...
<pgraner> ..
<ClassBot> Sandman_ asked: Will Gnome-shell be available trough default repos or will it always be through a PPA? Asking cause right now i had to use the Minimal iso to get it working good.
<jono> Sandman_, Shell will likely be available in 11.10
<jono> but will not be on the disc
<jono> we will be shipping Unity as the shell
<jono> but we will be shipping the GNOME 3 platform so GNOME 3 apps, such as the ones we ship in Ubuntu (e.g. GEdit, Control Panel applets, Empathy etc) will run
<jono> but yes, you should be able to install Shell from the Ubuntu Software Center
<ClassBot> hggdh asked: what can the community test? How?
<jono> pgraner, want to take this one?
<pgraner> sure
<jono> sorry folks
<jono> pgraner just called me to let me know his net went down
<jono> hence the delay
<jono> I will take over until he returns
<jono> so hggdh, the community can test in a bunch of different ways
<jono> around release time and with Alphas a great way to help is with the ISO testing
<jono> but throughout the cycle we encourage our community to take a look at bugs in Ubuntu and try to reproduce those issues and find out more to help the developers save time before they find a fix
<jono> in a perfect world a bug report will provide all the details necessary for a developer to produce a fix
<jono> this is a great way in which the community can participate
<ClassBot> MattisAwesome_ asked: Do you ever plan to add full disk encryption support to the default installer CD and not just the alternate installer?
<jono> I am not sure about this - this is a better question for the ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list
<jono> https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
<ClassBot> cb9 asked: What areas of the OS need the most testing right now?  where are you finding the most bugs?
<jono> this is an area in which pgraner is better aligned to answer
<pgraner> jono, back
<jono> part of what we are trying to achieve with the new approach to QA is being able to provide a better visibility on what needs testing and areas of focus
<jono> hey pgraner
<jono> <ClassBot> cb9 asked: What areas of the OS need the most testing right now?  where are you finding the most bugs?
<jono> pgraner, ^
<pgraner> sorry folks weather
<pgraner> id say kernel, installer & unity
<pgraner> for starters
<pgraner> ..
<ClassBot> Klau3 asked: Do you have plans to add an 'Restor bootloader' on the Ubuntu installation CD - http://goo.gl/DABww
<jono> I haven't heard specific plans around this
<jono> this would be a good question for cjwatson
<ClassBot> RevSpecies116 asked: With the different versions on Ubuntu being supported at any one time, does it get a bit repetitive to test a package for the same things across the builds of Ubuntu?
<jono> I think this makes the release management of Ubuntu difficult
<jono> for which skaet is a total legend, as our resident Ubuntu Release Manager
<jono> if you ever see skaet in a bar, buy her a glass of wine :-)
<pgraner> +1
<jono> one of the challenges that we do face is releases being delayed because of issues in the derivs
<jono> skaet strives to ensure that the testing is applied to all the release that share components
<jono> I think this is an area we want to streamline in the future
<jono> I think we should organize a Q+A with skaet in the future on this topic
 * jono is mean for volunteering her :-)
<jono> anything else to add, pgraner?
<pgraner> thats why we are automating
<pgraner> its takes the guess workout
<pgraner> and gives us a better level confidence
<pgraner> we look at manual testing as the exception where automation doesn't work or in not appropriate
<pgraner> ..
<pgraner> jono, next question?
<ClassBot> Sandman_ asked: When will an PPA for systemd be available for testing? (sorry if this also is not very QA)
<jono> I have no idea
<jono> any idea pgraner?
<pgraner> jono, as far as I know we have no plans
<pgraner> community may step up and make one available
<ClassBot> maco asked: there are 96,452 open bugs. Do you think we'll avoid hitting 100K by the time Oneiric releases?
<pgraner> Nope
<pgraner> We are the main reporting point for most upstream projects we ship
<pgraner> I just don't see avoiding that in the near future
<jono> agreed, I don't think the number of open bugs is an indicator of failure or successful, I think it is an indicator of the popularity of Ubuntu and the ease of filing defects
<jono> so I am sure we will exceed 100,000
<pgraner> the issue is how to make upstreams looks at our bug tracker
<pgraner> and use it as part of their workflow
<jono> I think pgraner will probably agree, but we have to accept the reality that we have too many bugs and not enough hands to triage and respond to them, and part of this new QA initiative is to deal with that problem
<pgraner> jono, amen brother!
<jono> I will be expecting the new head on my team to work extensively with the community to handle many of these bugs and increase our throughput and how enjoyable the triage experience is for community members
 * jono high-fives pgraner
<jono> :-)
<jono> btw, before we go on
<jono> I just want to take one minute to say a huge thanks to pgraner - he stepped back from leading the kernel team for a few months to entirely assess and build a strategy around reviving QA in Ubuntu
<jono> he has done an *epic* job and it will have lasting benefits for Ubuntu
<jono> so if you see him in a bar, buy him a bottle of Jack or something :-)
<pgraner> jono, aww jono, this won't get me to buy you a beer dude
<jono> dammit
<jono> was worth a shot :-)
<pgraner> :)
<pgraner> next question!
<ClassBot> RevSpecies116 asked: Is fixing 'Papercuts' tedious or rewarding (or both ;))?
<jono> I would say it is rewarding
<jono> the great thing about Ubuntu is that everyone can put their brick in the wall
<jono> everyone can help bring Free Software to the masses
<jono> and one thing that we have always tried to do is make the first few experience of contributing really easy
<pgraner> this big thing is it allows people to focus on discrete bits of work easily
<jono> we want everyone to feel welcome and empowered to contribute to Ubuntu
<jono> exactly
<jono> the papercuts scheme and the bitesize bugs campaigns, of which you will be seeing a lot of in the 11.10 cycle, are great on-ramps to get new folks started and feeling great about being part of our community
<jono> the idea is that you can pick and choose tasks to work on and in the process grow your skills and get to know our community
<jono> for the vast majority of people this is a hugely rewarding process
<jono> alright folks, we are out of questions
<jono> we have 15mins left
<jono> further questions?
<jono> to participate, this is how you ask a question:
<jono> 1. Join #ubuntu-classroom-chat
<jono> 2. Ask a question by typing 'QUESTION' and then your question:
<jono> e.g:
<jono> QUESTION: What is happening with foo?
<jono> looks like we might be done
<jono> no more questions
<jono> alright, let's wrap it
<jono> thanks everyone!
<jono> and thanks pgraner
<pgraner> Thanks!
<ClassBot> There are 10 minutes remaining in the current session.
<ClassBot> There are 5 minutes remaining in the current session.
<ClassBot> Logs for this session will be available at http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2011/05/27/%23ubuntu-classroom.html
* ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to the Ubuntu Classroom - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Classroom || Support in #ubuntu || Upcoming Schedule: http://is.gd/8rtIi || Questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat ||
<mohan1411> #ubuntu-classroom-chat
#ubuntu-classroom 2011-05-29
<shakti> Hi
<shakti> Need help with Ubuntu... am new
#ubuntu-classroom 2012-05-21
<madzia> hello does anyone know how to deal with "no audio devices found" in one application when it works in another one? i am completely new to ubuntu and don't even know what to start with
<madzia> hello is anyone here experienced with ubuntu?
<pleia2> madzia: you want #ubuntu for support, this channel is for scheduled classes
<madzia> @pleia2, oh didn't know, thx
<meetingology> madzia: Error: "pleia2," is not a valid command.
#ubuntu-classroom 2012-05-22
<mani990> join #ubuntu-tam
<tester> i'm not able to do scp file transfer or any other ssh job like sftp .....any help ???   http://paste.ubuntu.com/1000818
#ubuntu-classroom 2012-05-23
<linda> How to remove the wiki page link for a state from kgeography app?
#ubuntu-classroom 2012-05-24
<gaspernoe> hi
#ubuntu-classroom 2012-05-25
<weelity> anybody here?
<Lerhond> !Q
<ubot2> Factoid 'Q' not found
<Lerhond> Welcome to the third Ubuntu Algorithm Classes.
* ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to the Ubuntu Classroom - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Classroom || Support in #ubuntu || Upcoming Schedule: http://is.gd/8rtIi || Questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat || Current Session: Ubuntu Algorithm Class 2 - Instructors: bdfhjk, Lerhond
<ClassBot> Logs for this session will be available at http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2012/05/25/%23ubuntu-classroom.html following the conclusion of the session.
<Lerhond> Today Iâll explain an algorithm - exponentiation by squaring and adjacency list, which is a way to store a graph in computerâs memory.
<Lerhond> Of course, if you donât understand something, please ask.
<Lerhond> Algorithm Classes Notes are avaliable here: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Okbul4AIzQTR4CVGLcx-dmIXkdToNvLiJkIZurxNB8Q/edit
<Lerhond> Ok, I will now start explaining exponentiation by squaring. Itâs a very simple algorithm, but itâs also very useful and quite fast.
<Lerhond> For example, we need to calculate 3^1000000.
<Lerhond> We can do it using naive algorithm, but to this, we need to do 999999 multiplications.
<Lerhond> With exponentiation by squaring, we need only about 20 multiplications.
<Lerhond> You can see that itâs really faster.
<Lerhond> How does it work? Itâs quite simple.
<Lerhond> Itâs easy to notice that each time we need to compute x^n, we can divide it to two smaller problems - weâll calculate x^(n/2)*x^(n/2).
<Lerhond> We need only to compute x^(n/2) and then square our result.
<Lerhond_> Sorry for that, something was wrong. I'll continue now.
<Lerhond_> We need only to compute x^(n/2) and then square our result.
<Lerhond_> We can also notice that we can do the same thing with x^(n/2).
<Lerhond_> In summary, we need to divide our problem to two smaller problems and do this until they arenât very small.
<Lerhond_> Is that clear?
<Lerhond_> This method is called âdivide and conquerâ and you can use it to solve plenty of problems quickly.
<Lerhond_> Another example is binary search - this algorithm was explained during last classes.
<Lerhond_> How can we write this algorithm as a code in your favourite programming language? Have you got any ideas?
<Lerhond> We can write this algorithm as a recursive function.
<Lerhond> Our function will receive two variables - x and n. Of course we want to compute x^n.
<Lerhond> I will call this function power(x, n).
<Lerhond> After starting a function, we need to check if n = 0. If it does, power function should return 1.
<Lerhond> If n is odd, we should return x * power(x, n - 1). It means that x^n = x * x^(n - 1).
<Lerhond> Else, if n is even, we create another variable. I will name it a.
<Lerhond> Value of a will be: power(x, n / 2).
<Lerhond> After calculating a, function should return a * a.
<Lerhond> If something isn't clear, you can ask: #ubuntu-classroom-chat
<Lerhond> This is the end of out function power. If we need to calculate x^n, we simply need to call power(x, n); and everything will work.
<Lerhond> Here is an example of C++ code for this algorithm: http://j.mp/KyQ4SC
<Lerhond_> I'm very, very sorry about this, but I have no idea why it's disconnecting me.
<Lerhond_> I explained almost everything, but there is still one thing about this algorithm.
<Lerhond_> When you see this code, you probably notice â% Qâ at the end of some lines. In C++, â%â is an operator for modulo.
<Lerhond_> Why we need modulo here and what is Q?
<Lerhond_> We need modulo, because numbers computed by this functions will be probably very big - probably bigger than long longâs range.
<Lerhond_> Q should be a very big prime number, for example 100000007.
<Lerhond_> If every time we will do something modulo Q, we will never get a negative number and our result will be always correct (of course modulo Q, not a full result - it may be too big to be stored in integer variable).
<Lerhond_> Of course if our result is smaller than Q, it will be correct.
<Lerhond> There is also an iterative version of this algorithm. Itâs faster and itâs uses less memory that recursive one, but itâs harder to understand.
<Lerhond> I wonât explain it now, but you can read its code in notes.
<Lerhond> This is the end of part about exponentiation by squaring. If something isnât clear, ask now. In a minute Iâll start explaining adjacency lists.
<Lerhond> I don't see any questions there.
<Lerhond> So I'll start explaining adjacency lists.
<Lerhond> On last Ubuntu Algorithm Classes, another instructor explained how to use an adjacency matrix. Itâs a very simple way to store a graph, but is uses a lot of memory and sometimes can be slow.
<Lerhond> Here is an example of a simple, undirected graph: http://j.mp/KyQ45a I will use it to explain how adjacency lists work.
<Lerhond> We can see the graph, so weâll start creating an adjacency list. In the picture we can see that vertex 1 is adjacent to vertices 2 and 5, vertices 1, 3 and 5 are adjacent to vertex 2, etc.
<Lerhond> This is an idea of doing an adjacency list. We create n lists and list E[i] will contain all nodes adjacent to vertex i.
<Lerhond> An example is shown in algorithm classes notes as a table.
<Lerhond> Here is an example of simple C++ program: http://j.mp/KyWL7a
<Lerhond> It reads a list of edges and creates an adjacency list for this graph.
<Lerhond> Do you have any questions about using adjacency lists? Or maybe about anything else about Ubuntu Algorithm Classes Session 3?
<Lerhond> Nothing?
<ClassBot> There are 10 minutes remaining in the current session.
<Lerhond> This is everything for today. Thank you for taking part in the classes. Of course, there are 10 minutes left - it's time to ask your qeustions on #ubuntu-classroom-chat ;)
<bdfhjk> Thank You Lerhond
<ClassBot> There are 5 minutes remaining in the current session.
<Lerhond> Time is over. Thank you again for taking part in the classes.
<ClassBot> Logs for this session will be available at http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2012/05/25/%23ubuntu-classroom.html
* ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to the Ubuntu Classroom - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Classroom || Support in #ubuntu || Upcoming Schedule: http://is.gd/8rtIi || Questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat ||
<kimura_cl> Â¡
#ubuntu-classroom 2012-05-26
<beaver74__> Hey
#ubuntu-classroom 2012-05-27
<nigelb> rr
#ubuntu-classroom 2013-05-21
* ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to the Ubuntu Classroom - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Classroom || Support in #ubuntu || Upcoming Schedule: http://is.gd/8rtIi || Questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat || Event: Ubuntu Open Week - Current Session: Ubuntu Touch Team - Instructors: sergiusens
<sergiusens> Good morning, evening or night depending on where you are
<sergiusens> I'm part of the Touch team and thought it would be a good idea to share on how to contribute back to the team
<sergiusens> s/team/project/ :-)
<sergiusens> The project is sort of diveded on two sides
<sergiusens> one is what we based out of Android, which could be considered our HAL
<sergiusens> and Ubuntu proper
<sergiusens> If anyone has questions please go ahead and ask btw
<sergiusens> ok, so we have multiple team working on each side
<sergiusens> the Phone Foundations (which I am a part of), works on this android hal and on the general plumbing on the Ubuntu side.
<sergiusens> The there's a shell team, a team working on mir, an sdk team and an apps team
<sergiusens> working on the higher layers would be just like working on a general Ubuntu system
<sergiusens> So I'm going to move on and give an overview on how you would work on the android side
<sergiusens> !QUESTION
<ClassBot> jsjgruber-l99-p asked: HAL?
<sergiusens> HAL as in hardware abstraction layer, we ideally use android just to get to the hardware
<ClassBot> SonikkuAmerica asked: Just to be clear, the Ubuntu Touch Android HAL is the ARM core from CyanogenMod 10.1 if I remember correctly?
<sergiusens> the android hal is based out of cm-10.1 and all our modifications live here: http://phablet.ubuntu.com/gitweb
<sergiusens> under the phablet-10.1 branch
<sergiusens> so in general, if you would want to get these sources and build out for one of these systems one would...
<sergiusens> repo init -u git://phablet.ubuntu.com/CyanogenMod/android.git -b phablet-10.1
<sergiusens> in some directory, then repo sync and wait for a bit
<sergiusens> the sync is much faster that pulling plain android since we removed most of the big pieces which are not related to this HAL
<sergiusens> once that's done, we need to add two branches that live in bazaar which are the lp:platform-api and lp:phablet-extras/libhybris
<sergiusens> whenever you see phablet-extras, it means it's not supposed to live there and in the process or needs to be upstreamed
<sergiusens> in a very simple way to say it, hybris would be the gateway to talk to android from ubuntu
<sergiusens> after we have all that in, we grab the specifics to a hardware platform
<sergiusens> first we would need to source the _android_ build environment -> source build/envsetup.sh
<sergiusens> so we can have breakfast
<sergiusens> breakfast brings in the hardware specifics... so doing breakfast maguro would bring in the device specific branch and it's dependencies
<sergiusens> the dependencies are tracked by cm.dependencies, in the case of maguro http://phablet.ubuntu.com/gitweb?p=CyanogenMod/android_device_samsung_maguro.git;a=blob_plain;f=cm.dependencies;hb=refs/heads/phablet-10.1
<sergiusens> we support, as in builds, 4 devices, maguro, manta, grouper and mako
<sergiusens> but any contribution to another device is welcome
<sergiusens> so let me sidetrack a bit...
<sergiusens> in some of these dependencies you will see a ref to a kernel repo... these, in the case of these four devices are in the process of being in ubuntu
<sergiusens> if you are on saucy you can apt-cache search mako and grouper (and manta iirc) and get them already
<sergiusens> and that's done by the kernel team now
<sergiusens> after having breakfast, there's one more step, and it's getting the binary blobs... all the device repos have a script that does this for you provided that your device is hooked up
<sergiusens> in the case of the nexus devices, they are available to you at https://developers.google.com/android/nexus/drivers
<sergiusens> if you are just getting started with a new device, breakfast will get you started and pull in the repos from cyanogenmod directly
<sergiusens> these sources after their adaptation are more than welcome to live on phablet.ubuntu.com
<sergiusens> if they are, we will setup something so they build weekly/nightly and be ready for use with phablet-flash (for those who don't want to manually do it which is also possible)
<sergiusens> it's sort of important to keep the builds in sync on the android and ubuntu side with regards to the platform-api and hybris, since they live on both sides, android_hal and ubuntu
<sergiusens> on the ubuntu side, everything is much simpler... or at least there is more expertise from the rest of the team on how to build this part :-)
<sergiusens> it's just livebuild, and you can give it a shot if you want
<sergiusens> it all lives here lp:touch-preview-images/ubuntu-build-phablet
<sergiusens> a tar file comes out of building with that
<sergiusens> which is wrapped into a zip file and an edify script that allows to deploy from recovery
<sergiusens> there are two reasons to provide this only as an update.zip and not as an .img as we do for the others (which we do both)
<sergiusens> one if that not all devices have fastboot and the other is some devices can't fit this in through fastboot due to image size constraints when flashing
<sergiusens> if everything were great, we would've probably just gone with a userdata.img from the start that would contain the ubuntu bits
<sergiusens> if you are in anyway interested in tinkering on this side, I recommend joining #ubuntu-touch
<sergiusens> so if there aren't any question regarding this topic, I'm going to do a 180
<sergiusens> and move on to a different topic
<sergiusens> still Touch related though :-)
<sergiusens> ok, another side of things is testing
<sergiusens> there's a manual side and an automated side
<sergiusens> the manual side is the easiest to explain so I'll touch base on that... there's a simple suite of tests that we run that lives in http://iso.qa.ubuntu.com
<sergiusens> you can look for them under the Product (Ubuntu Touch) labels
<sergiusens> i.e., for manta: http://iso.qa.ubuntu.com/qatracker/milestones/270/builds/44685/testcases
<sergiusens> anyone can run a cycle against the current build that lives on cdimage
<sergiusens> regarding the apps and shell, every MR gets (or should get) to run autopilot tests among others before a merge is accepted on jenkins
<sergiusens> it doesn't capture all the issues or prevent some broken packages, but it does catch most
<sergiusens> the unit tests and all other tests for those packages are also run
<sergiusens> if you are looking into automated testing with autopilot, I recommend branching one of the projects and to look into the tests/autopilot subdirectory
<sergiusens> and that's all I'm going to say with regards to that due to time
<sergiusens> last but not least comes image testing
<sergiusens> we used to have a suite that ran and accepted an image that has got a bit behind it's usefulness, so this cycle we are going to be working and refocusing on it
<sergiusens> in the end, we want to have a sort of rolling release during development where no regressions occur... it's a big goal, hard to reach, but that's where the focus is
<ClassBot> There are 10 minutes remaining in the current session.
<sergiusens> so cdimage would build the build and land it in /pending, uexposed to users
<sergiusens> our jenkins instance will catch it and run suites against it and determine it's stability on the 4 platforms... if a test fails, we fix and reiterate
<sergiusens> if it passes it gets moved to current for all others to grab
<sergiusens> Given the session is about to end, I'll ask, are there any questions?
<sergiusens> ok, that's a wrap
<sergiusens> have a nice day!
<ClassBot> There are 5 minutes remaining in the current session.
* ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to the Ubuntu Classroom - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Classroom || Support in #ubuntu || Upcoming Schedule: http://is.gd/8rtIi || Questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat || Event: Ubuntu Open Week - Current Session: Lubuntu Team - Instructors: phillw
<ClassBot> Logs for this session will be available at http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2013/05/21/%23ubuntu-classroom.html following the conclusion of the session.
<phillw> good morning / afternnon or evening!
<phillw> I'm the team leader for testing in lubuntu.
<phillw> Firstly, what is lubuntu? Lubuntu is a low resource member of the ubuntu family based on lxde
<phillw> it continues to go from strength to strength thanks to the hard work of all the team and feed back from users, who rapidly become involved in testing :)
<phillw> The is a set of slides showing what lubuntu looks like at http://lubuntu.net/
<phillw> for anyone curious as to what it looks like.
<phillw> it has been decided that the major development work for this cycle will be set the foundation for our first LTS release in 14.04
<phillw> the recent vUDS meeting can be viewed at http://youtu.be/qfy_GxKHL0M at your leisure.
<phillw> So, how can people help out?
<phillw> A great place to start looking is at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Lubuntu/GettingInvolved
<phillw> we always need people in all the teams, being new to the areas that interest you is not a bar to joining and getting used to how things are done.
<phillw> As nicholas is going to be running a session on QA / Testing a little later I'll briefly touch on testing, as any one can help test :)
<phillw> if you want some back ground on testing the images (ISO's) then head over to https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Lubuntu/Testing for background information on what the various terms that are used mean
<phillw> another important area that needs contributers is documentation. It is hoped to have 'off-line' documentation available for 14.04 (with hopefully a draft version on 13.10)
<phillw> we are also re-vamping the wiki area and looking into making a lubuntu manual.
<phillw> head over to https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Lubuntu/DocumentationTeam if you are interested in helping out and make your-selves known!
<phillw> as you can see from https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Lubuntu/GettingInvolved most of the teams have their own mailing lists so that they can discuss things. These are really handy as we are split across all sorts of time-zones :)
<ClassBot> SonikkuAmerica asked: When you say "setting the foundation," does that mean that 14.04 LTS will only be a maintenance release built on 13.10?
<phillw> SonikkuAmerica: no, it means that 13.10 may be a little rough round the edges. There are various development issues that are being worked on, not all of them may make the cut off for 13.10
<ClassBot> TheLordOfTime asked: What do you mean by "offline documentation"?
<phillw> off-line documentation means that the installation media itself will have help files on it, which will be installed and able to be viewed without internet access
<phillw> no more getting told to look up on the internet how to find out solutions as to why your internet isn't working :)
<phillw> the lubuntu manual will be a downloadable file that you can then view off-line or print for reference.
<phillw> the off-line area will be using Mallard, the documentation on using mallard is currently being updated, so we're not sure how complete it will be for 13.10
<phillw> are there any questions people have? I've just briefly covered where we are, where we are heading and how to assist.
<phillw> rtfm = read the 'friendly' manual :)
<phillw> the pre-alphas of lubuntu are now available via the iso-tracker http://iso.qa.ubuntu.com/qatracker/milestones/243/builds
<phillw> Not wishing to steal any of Nicholas's presentation, the QA team have held already some classroom sessions https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Testing/Activities/Classroom and are planning some more to update things that have changed.
<ClassBot> SonikkuAmerica asked: I VBox'ed 13.04 and saw a couple of new session options (LX Games and Lubuntu Nexus 7 Session). Can you tell us a little about those without cutting into another topic?
<phillw> SonikkuAmerica: I don't have any information to hand on those. It is probably best to ask on the general mailing list. I'm sure someone will give you (and me) details :)
<phillw> for games, we are most likely dropping the 'ace of penguins' suite and having just one, fairly decent, game.
<phillw> having had a quick google, adding nexus 7 is something that the developers would have to implement, I am unaware of any discussions on the subject so far but did find this.... http://imagebin.org/258276
<phillw> we did have a netbook option previously, but as to what is planned for 13.10 / 14.04 I do not know.
<phillw> any other questions?
<phillw> if there are no further questions, that about wraps things up. Thanks for attending and for the questions!
<ClassBot> There are 10 minutes remaining in the current session.
<ClassBot> There are 5 minutes remaining in the current session.
* ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to the Ubuntu Classroom - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Classroom || Support in #ubuntu || Upcoming Schedule: http://is.gd/8rtIi || Questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat || Event: Ubuntu Open Week - Current Session: Ubuntu LoCo Teams - Instructors: coolbhavi
<ClassBot> Logs for this session will be available at http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2013/05/21/%23ubuntu-classroom.html following the conclusion of the session.
<coolbhavi> Hello all
<coolbhavi> :-)
<coolbhavi> and welcome to my session on loco teams in ubuntu
<coolbhavi> I am Bhavani shankar a ubuntu developer and I will be representing the LoCo council in ubuntu today
<coolbhavi> taking all your questions related to Loco teams and their working in ubuntu
<coolbhavi> So basically this is intended to be a q n a session where you can ask any questions related to how is the loco team infrastructure made up and how loco teams work in ubuntu
<coolbhavi> so any questions are welcome :)
<coolbhavi> so assuming there are no questions as of now let me move on
<coolbhavi> so who are we the LoCo council in ubuntu and what we do?
<coolbhavi> In ubuntu we are a team of 6 members who take care of the governance of loco teams in ubuntu
<coolbhavi> and provide the loco teams with whatever support is required in terms of infrastructure
<coolbhavi> so in short we take care to see that the loco teams are running smoothly at any given point of time
<coolbhavi> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LoCoCouncil page describes our duties related to local communities (LoCo's) in ubuntu
<coolbhavi> (as I said earlier, any questions are welcome at any point of time)
<coolbhavi> So moving on, how to setup a loco team in ubuntu?
<coolbhavi> setting up a loco team is fairly simple: First decide which region you want to create a team for and then search the loco directory (loco.ubuntu.com) for any loco presence in your area and if not you could go ahead and create one
<coolbhavi> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LoCoTeamHowto page comes in handy while doing so
<coolbhavi> Ok, Now I have a existing loco team in the area and I want to contribute, so how to join?
<coolbhavi> Simple again just browse the loco directory at loco.ubuntu.com and select a region of your choice and join a loco team in your area and start contributing :-)
<ClassBot> kotux asked: In the Los Angeles region, there is a Pasadena LoCo. Would it be ok to start a LoCo in Los Angeles too?  (The cities are not too far apart.)
<coolbhavi> kotux, A good question, if the cities are not far apart you can be better off I think contributing to the existing loco than creating one yourself
<coolbhavi> in  your area
<coolbhavi> alright, lets move on
<coolbhavi> ok so I have joined or created a loco team, whats next?
<coolbhavi> You can contribute in a variety of ways in your loco team
<coolbhavi> like spreading the word about ubuntu(not to be confused with marketing) or running installfests or bug jams and global jams and so on
<coolbhavi> Any questions till now?
<ClassBot> fkol_k4 asked: What is the benefit of contributing via a LocCo team instead of doing this on one's own initiative? In what ways does Ubuntu backs LoCo teams?
<coolbhavi> fkol_k4, I am coming to that in the next part :-)
<coolbhavi> so I have joined a loco team.. What are the benefits my team gets
<coolbhavi> ?
<coolbhavi> there is a procedure called the loco teams approval procedure which is done by the Loco council every 2 years
<coolbhavi> welcome to SergioMeneses btw :-)
<coolbhavi> so once we verify and approve the loco team operations, the team will be given a approved/verified team status in ubuntu
<coolbhavi> so how to get your team operations verified and whats the benefit?
<ClassBot> fkol_k4 asked: in the 2013 UDS it was announced by Jono Bacon that LoCo approval will be deprecated.
<coolbhavi> fkol_k4, thats something we are contemplating on as yet
<coolbhavi> and going forward we will only verify the operations I guess as we are thinking to extend the support to teams in larger cities too..
<coolbhavi> so its work in progress :-)
<coolbhavi> so moving ahead..
<coolbhavi> what is the loco team approval procedure and what are its benefits?
<coolbhavi> once a loco team deems to be active for some part of time they can apply for approval and general guidelines are given in this wiki page: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LoCoCouncil/TeamApprovalGuidelines
<coolbhavi> once the team gets approved the team would be given conference packs pressed cd's via shipit primarily for distribution in the loco and in conferences
<coolbhavi> SergioMeneses, any other goodies you can specify here :-)
<ClassBot> SonikkuAmericaX asked: Due to the announcement that pressed discs of the latest versions will no longer be available, will LTS releases still be pressed and sent to LoCo teams upon request?
<coolbhavi> SonikkuAmericaX, yes
<SergioMeneses> There are teams that are not approved, but that does not mean they can not receive conference packs or resources
<SergioMeneses> as you can see in this wikipage https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuAtConferences
 * SergioMeneses gives the word to coolbhavi 
<coolbhavi> only thing is you ll receive a scaled down version :-)
<ClassBot> There are 10 minutes remaining in the current session.
<coolbhavi> Last but not the least: to make your loco team experience easier in ubuntu jono has put all the things together and come up with a kit called ubuntu advocacy kit (uak)
<coolbhavi> you can see the project page here: https://launchpad.net/uak
<coolbhavi> and download the latest package from here and install: https://launchpad.net/~uak-admins/+archive/uak
<coolbhavi> its a offine reference which runs from your pc and anyone is welcome to contribute :-)
<ClassBot> NikTh asked: How many Loco contacts can exist in a Loco team ? One , two , or more ?
<ClassBot> There are 5 minutes remaining in the current session.
<coolbhavi> NikTh, any number can be more than one unless any conflicts doesnt arise within the team
<coolbhavi> :-)
<SergioMeneses> NikTh, there is a figure called: Councils - a group of administrators
<coolbhavi> the floor is open for any questions as we wind up :-)
<SergioMeneses> NikTh, if you LoCo team is big maybe you will need more contacts
<coolbhavi> for any queries you can write to us at loco-council at lists.ubuntu.com
<SergioMeneses> sure! any question please let us know :D
<coolbhavi> thanks SergioMeneses
<coolbhavi> :-)
<SergioMeneses> ok guys, it was a pleasure to be part of this amazing event! :D enjoy it :)
<coolbhavi> and thanks all of you for attending our session :-)
* ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to the Ubuntu Classroom - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Classroom || Support in #ubuntu || Upcoming Schedule: http://is.gd/8rtIi || Questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat || Event: Ubuntu Open Week - Current Session: Ubuntu Quality Team - Instructors: balloons
<ClassBot> Logs for this session will be available at http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2013/05/21/%23ubuntu-classroom.html following the conclusion of the session.
<balloons> Hello and welcome to the ubuntu quality team session. My name is Nicholas Skaggs and I'm the QA Community Coordinator. Thanks for attending (or reading this log later!)!
<balloons> This session is intended to introduce you to what the quality team does, some of the sites and tools utilized by the team, as well as how you can join and participate.
<balloons> You may ask questions at any point.. Just be sure to utilize the #ubuntu-classroom-chat channel. Prefix your question with QUESTION: to ensure I see it.
<balloons> Everyone ready?
<balloons> So first I'm going to give a brief overview of what QA is and how the team works, then I'll dive into the activities we do during the cycle. Along the way, we'll talk about the tools we use as well. Finally, we'll talk about how you can get involved and then do a Q & A.
<balloons> So to start off, letâs take a look at the wiki page for the team
<balloons> http://wiki.ubuntu.com/QATeam
<balloons> On the page you can see some of the teams goals and purpose
<balloons> Simply put, we help ensure everyone's work in ubuntu is presented in the best possible way
<balloons> From designing good process, to testing, to making sure things 'just work', we want the culmination of work that results in the ubuntu image to be the best it can be
<balloons> So where do we hang out?
<balloons> Many different places actually :-)
<balloons> right here on IRC, #ubuntu-quality
<balloons> on our mailing list:     https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-quality
<balloons> in the forums;     http://ubuntuforums.org/forumdisplay.php?f=427
<balloons> on askubuntu;     http://askubuntu.com/questions/tagged/quality
<balloons> and even on social sites like facebook; https://www.facebook.com/groups/UbuntuQA/
<balloons> twitter; https://twitter.com/ubuntutesting
<balloons> and google+; https://plus.google.com/b/108452779163647535106/108452779163647535106/
<balloons> So, what do we do exactly?
<balloons> During the course of the cycle, we as a team participate by providing test results for the packages as they are undergoing development. If we find a bug, we'll also report and file it.
<balloons> In addition, we develop testcases, best practices and even tools to help us test more effectively
<balloons> Our testing is done via several avenues. I'll describe each briefly.
<balloons> The frst is cadence testing, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Testing/Cadence.
<balloons> Cadence testing is simply the term we use to describe that we test at regular intervals.
<balloons> In practice, this amounts to us testing every 2 weeks during the cycle -- we test images, packages and and hardware.
<balloons> The second is smoke testing, or dogfooding as some would call it, the development version of ubuntu.
<balloons> This means simply installing or upgrading to the development release and using it as a regular machine. By attempting to work and perform tasks under the development version you may encounter a bug.
<balloons> Your usage of the development version represents a broad and unique testcase
<balloons> The third is a call for testing. This is a call to test a specific piece of software, with an accompanying set of tests and instructions for testing.
<balloons> This call could happen at anytime throughout the cycle, and is utilized by developers to help ensure the software they are landing in the development version is ready for general consumption.
<balloons> So, how do we coordinate all of these different avenues for testing? The answer is the QATracker
<balloons> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Testing/QATracker
<balloons> The tracker is where we submit the test results and get information needed to complete the test, such as the testcase and installation instructions.
<balloons> There are actually several qatracker instances each geared towards testing different things
<balloons> http://iso.qa.ubuntu.com is used to report results for image testing
<balloons> http://packages.qa.ubuntu.com is used to report results for package testing
<balloons> http://laptop.qa.ubuntu.com is used for laptop/hardware testing
<balloons> The tracker helps us work together as a team to perform these testing activities. The wiki page has more details about how it works and provides links to walkthroughs to help you get started submitting results.
<balloons> So we've talked about test results and some of the testing our team does. But there is another way to participate in the team
<balloons> Namely, helping create the testcases we use
<balloons> You can contribute both manual and automated testcases to ubuntu.
<balloons> Manual testcases are intended to be run by us, humans :-), while the automated testcases can be run by a machine.
<balloons> As a team, we maintain two projects the Ubuntu Manual Tests (https://launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual-tests/) and the Ubuntu Autopilot Tests (https://launchpad.net/ubuntu-autopilot-tests/) projects.
<balloons> The Ubuntu Manual Tests project holds all of our manual test results. Everything you see on the various qatrackers like iso.qa.ubuntu.com is held in the source code repository.
<balloons> The testcases are written in plain english, with a simple html syntax. You can see the format for our testcases here https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Testing/TestCaseFormat.
<balloons> Anyone can contribute a manual testcase to the project and we welcome contributions :-)
<balloons> Both of the projects utilize a 'TODO' bug tag for work and testcases that need to be done
<balloons> I'll describe more about how to get involved in any of these activities in just a moment
<balloons> Now if your interested in automated testing, check out the ubuntu autopilot tests project
<balloons> The Ubuntu Autopilot Tests project holds the autopilot testcases for ubuntu. Autopilot (https://launchpad.net/autopilot) is a tool that allows us to write functional gui testcases
<balloons> he goals of the project are twofold; Automate iso testing installation via ubiquity and write a set of automated tests for every default desktop application in ubuntu.
<balloons>  Both of these goals are intended to augment manual testing and provide a nice set of regression tests that can be run everyday against the newly built image.
<balloons> So we spoke about the qatracker, where our manual test results are reported. So where does the automated test results lie?
<balloons> the answer is the QA dashboard (http://reports.qa.ubuntu.com/)
<balloons> https://jenkins.qa.ubuntu.com/ is the raw jenkins output that is utilized to generate the nice graphs and views on the QA dashboard
<balloons> On the smoke testing page you can see the automated testing results for our daily images. Images are not published for manual testing until they meet a baseline criteria for installation via automated testing -- this helps us focus our testing efforts :-)
<balloons> So, that was a quick runthrough of many different things. In a nutshell we spoke about contributing test results and contributing testcases
<balloons> If your interested in contributing, there is some great documentation on our wiki, and even video walkthroughs on youtube.
<balloons> Check out https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Testing/Activities and https://www.youtube.com/qualitybecomesyou for more information.
<balloons> Specifically for contributing test results, there are walkthroughs at the bottom of the QATracker page https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Testing/QATracker
<balloons> For contributing testcases check out: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/QATeam/ContributingTestcases
<balloons> In addition, we also host hackathons where we hack on our testcases
<balloons> We are currently scheduling hackfests for the saucy cycle https://wiki.ubuntu.com/QATeam/Hackfest
<balloons> hackfests are a great way to get started contributing -- people are around to help you and review your contributions
<balloons> So, let's field some questions now
<balloons> Skini151 asks, QUESTION: How new package format will influence the QA in future?
<balloons> I assume you are referring to the click packages. click packages should't change anything for us in the future. They may require more testing if the packages are intended to be run across more devices distros, etc.
<balloons> However, we as a team are ultimately testing the package and in general aren't concerned with how it's delivered
<balloons> That said, we might be a part of doing testing specifically to ensure the click packages work properly :-)
<balloons> Feel free to ask any other questions you might have, I'll continue
<balloons> So we've talked a little about the team and given you an introduction to what we do
<balloons> Hopefully we've whet your appetite a little, and you are curious to learn more
<balloons> Getting involved in quality is a great way to start contributing to ubuntu
<balloons> We interact with many different teams and people.
<balloons> The work is diverse, and the skillsets required are too. There's room for you on the team!
<balloons> Are a technical person? Do you like to code?
<balloons> or perhaps your just wanting to learn a little python?
<balloons> You could consider writing some automated testcases using autopilot and contributing them to the ubuntu-autopilot-tests project
<balloons> you could also work on some of the tools we use, such as testdrive; https://launchpad.net/testdrive
<balloons> Perhaps you enjoy writing, or are skilled with explaining things step by step
<balloons> we need your skills in our ubuntu-manual-tests project!
<balloons> Maybe you just like breaking things, or running bleeding edge software -- contributing test results is right up your alley!
<balloons> Even if your not running ubuntu, but a flavor instead, we still need and welcome contributions in all of the above areas. We share many things like testcases and tools across the ubuntu family
<balloons> Vasudevan_ asks QUESTION:  When  is the autopilot session planned ? I am running into issues with the existing scripts on autopilot 1.3
<balloons> Good question. We should have a hackathon very soon; however, please don't struggle and wait alone. We're happy to help and chat about testing anytime in #ubuntu-quality and for autopilot specifically #ubuntu-autopilot if autopilot isn't playing nice
<balloons> watch the mailing list for the announcement
<balloons> of the day/time for the hackfest
<balloons> Skini151 asks, QUESTION: Where QA Team pay more attention at testing process? (sorry for my bad english).
<balloons> Skini151 explains that he is asking how we determine what to test as a quality team
<balloons> Very good question! In the past we've centered our efforts around a couple things. The first was new development we knew was landing in the release. For example, a new version of unity.
<balloons> The second is tried to look at things like errors.ubuntu.com and launchpad bugs, as well as feedback from our group on what's broken and what needs attention and then schedule some testing around it
<balloons> This cycle we actually have a blueprint for making this even clearer on the dashboard
<balloons> https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/qa-s-dashboard
<balloons> There's alot in there, but specific to what I'm talking about is called KPI, or Key performance indicators. We'll be talking about this more during the cycle
<balloons> Essentially the dashboard will attempt to give a concise view of the state of quality in ubuntu at any given time.
<balloons> Any other questions?
<balloons> I hope I've enticed you to join us in our quality endeavors :-). Let me share with you the next steps for joining the team and being more involved
<balloons> The steps for joining the team are quite simple. It's an open membership. You simply need a ubuntu SSO account
<balloons> https://login.launchpad.net/+new_account, if you don't have one
<balloons> That will allow you to contribute results to the tracker. In addition you should join our launchpad team and mailing list.. And then leave us a message and say hello! We're happy to help you get started and guide you through an area you'd like to help in
<balloons> LP team: https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-testing
<balloons> mailing list:  https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-quality
<balloons> The mailing list will keep you informed about testing events we are having, new initiatives, and allow you to ask questions and get help
<balloons> Finally, our #ubuntu-quality channel has folks from around the world hanging out at many different hours of the day.. Do stop by and say hello or ask questions anytime
<ClassBot> There are 10 minutes remaining in the current session.
<balloons> ok, if there's no more questions, this will be the official end of the session :-)
<balloons> I'd like to thank everyone for coming out or reading the log later :-)
<balloons> Also, I'd like to remind you that we as a quality team will be hosting more classroom sessions on specific topics next month for new comers to ubuntu quality
<balloons> Things like how to test images, how to file bugs, using vm's, etc, etc
<balloons> Watch the classroom announcement space as well as our social media and mailing lists for the specific dates and events
<balloons> Thanks everyone!
<ClassBot> There are 5 minutes remaining in the current session.
* ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to the Ubuntu Classroom - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Classroom || Support in #ubuntu || Upcoming Schedule: http://is.gd/8rtIi || Questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat || Event: Ubuntu Open Week - Current Session: Ubuntu Women Team - Instructors: pleia2
<pleia2> Hi everyone, welcome to the Ubuntu Open Week session about the Ubuntu Women Project!
<ClassBot> Logs for this session will be available at http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2013/05/21/%23ubuntu-classroom.html following the conclusion of the session.
<pleia2> My name is Elizabeth Krumbach Joseph. I currently work for HP and am tasked with working on the OpenStack Infrastructure team
<pleia2> Here in the Ubuntu world, among other things, I'm a member of the Ubuntu Community Council and one the quartet of leaders for the Ubuntu Women project along with Cheri Francis, Flavia Weisghizzi and Silvia Bindelli
<pleia2> The Ubuntu Women project was started in 2005 and formalized in 2006 (around when I got involved) by folks who were interested in helping to get more women using and contributing to Ubuntu
<pleia2> Continuing efforts have been spurred on by continued gender imbalance in open source, so loosely we work to:
<pleia2>  - reach out to women in our community or interested in joining and offer help to get involved
<pleia2>  - give suggestions to current community members about how they can encourage higher female participation (or, at the very least, not actively drive them away)
<pleia2>  - work on programs to raise the profile of potential role models already within our community (having role models has proven to be a very important part of increasing involvement)
<pleia2>  - provide a safe environment where people can feel free to discuss problems or concerns they have about the community related to gender issues
<pleia2> We're happy to say that when we were last tracking it, we were showing 5% of Ubuntu Members as women, which is higher than the general open source world where statistics range from 1-4%
<pleia2> but obviously 5% isn't great either :) we want a lot more women joining Ubuntu and technology in general, so our efforts continue
<pleia2> oh, and if anyone has any questions, please speak up at any time, in #ubuntu-classroom-chat you can do a question like:
<pleia2> QUESTION: Do you like penguins?
<pleia2> and I'll be able to pull it over here via classbot to answer it
<ClassBot> dee asked: Are there country specific Ubuntu Women projects? Background: I do not see that much projects in Germany even if I'm part of the German LoCo. (But maybe I do not look hard enough.) So how do you reach women in non English speaking countries?
<pleia2> great question, dee!
<pleia2> currently there are only a couple
<pleia2> there is a very active team in Italy that Flavia and Silvia participated in for Italian speakers
<pleia2> http://wiki.ubuntu-it.org/GruppoPromozione/UbuntuWomen
<pleia2> there is also an effort in Hungrary: http://women.ubuntu.hu/
<pleia2> unfortunately nothing in germany right now, but these are all led by women in our community who stepped up to run something, it's not something we centrally organize
<pleia2> so if someone in another country wants to start something for their region + language - please do! and let us know :)
<pleia2> now, before I get into talking about some of our current projects, I have 2 things this session is not about, but may be useful resources for those interested
<pleia2> 1. I won't be justifying the existence of the Ubuntu Women Project or explaining basic feminism topics
<pleia2> This is open source! Members of the project feel it is valuable and wish to spend their time on it, if you aren't interested in the project please join us! and if not, work on something else :)
<pleia2> If you are interested in the language of feminism, particularly as it relates to open source communities, to understand why we do what we do, I recommend starting with: http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Feminism_101
<pleia2> err, aren't/are
<pleia2> 2. I won't be rehashing the challenges that many women face in open source, tech or geek communities in general, or incidents that have occurred, it's not constructive for this space and these are already well-documented in many places, including:
<pleia2> http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Issues
<pleia2> http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Timeline_of_incidents
<pleia2> Now, recent projects and plans for the future!
<pleia2> At the Ubuntu Developer Summit in Copenhagen for the Raring cycle we put together a blueprint outlining some of our goals:
<pleia2> https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu-women.org/+spec/community-r-ubuntu-women-project-goals
<pleia2> Some of what we got accomplished on that list was work by Emma Marshall to start doing follow-up interviews of women who are working in Ubuntu and to seek out new ones
<pleia2> She was able to complete 3 of these, you can see her posts over on http://blog.ubuntu-women.org/
<pleia2> and I have another email in my inbox from her about another :)
<pleia2> related to dee's question, Flavia and Silvia also took time to share some of the history and tips from the Italian chapter of Ubuntu Women, details here: http://blog.ubuntu-women.org/2013/02/irc-presentation-of-ubuntuwomen-it-summary/
<pleia2> so this may be helpful to other regional chapters looking to get started
<pleia2> (of course we always encourage folks to join their LoCo team first!)
<pleia2> We also began brainstorming for some kind of competition that the team would run, since participation in these in the past has been high and has done a great job of raising interest in the project, which will happen this cycle
<pleia2> So this cycle we met at a virtual Ubuntu Developer Summit to discuss more plans
<pleia2> Blueprint here: https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu-women.org/+spec/community-1305-ubuntu-women
<pleia2> And since it was virtual, we have a video from the google hangout: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Uw9ipsmXkM
<pleia2> We'll be continuing work on the competition. Penelope Stowe and Cheri have come up with an idea to do a sort of online scavenger hunt for trivia questions related to women in tech and/or Ubuntu
<pleia2> The plans is also to also continue to write articles for an Ubuntu Women column in Full Circle Magazine (see: http://wiki.ubuntu-women.org/FullCircleMagazine), we've been unable to do that lately due to lack of time/availability
<pleia2> If anyone is interested in helping you can see that wiki page get some idea of what we've written in the past, who we've interviewed and if you're interested in writing something there is also some information about the basics of what we're looking for and some style guidelines
<pleia2> I proof read all articles passed along to the magazine, so don't be shy about providing ideas or even articles :)
<pleia2> We're also going to continue Career Days sessions that Cheri launched: http://wiki.ubuntu-women.org/CareerDays
<pleia2> These are IRC-based sessions intended to expose women to careers related to technology, Ubuntu and open source
<pleia2> And while we welcome anyone to give these sessions, when women give them it's also a great opportunity to show off the work of these successful female role models to inspire others
<pleia2> please let us know if you're interested in this project :)
<pleia2> Finally, we're also going to be putting together some questions for a general poll of our community to find out what people want and expect out of the project
<pleia2> I'm really excited about this one as I find that our project needs a bit of a "tune up" every couple of years to readjust to our changing project and audience
<pleia2> having feedback is really important so we can make sure we're spending our time in the right place and redirect efforts as needed
<pleia2> related to this, we're seeking to connect more with other women in tech groups, reaching out online about possible collaborations and ways we can help each other
<pleia2> perhaps sending the survey their way, then publishing the anonymous results so everyone in our communities can take advantage of the data
<pleia2> we'll also be seeing how our own mission and theirs sync to find other ways to collaborate
<pleia2> Personally I'll be attending Ada Camp in San Francisco in a few weeks and hope to reach out to some folks there http://sf.adacamp.org/
<pleia2> if 30 minute time slots existed for open week, I would have taken one of those :) that's all I've got!
<pleia2> questions?
<pleia2> (ask in #ubuntu-classroom-chat)
<ClassBot> dee asked: I know there is nothing in Germany but maybe you know an German female Ubuntu member that wants to talk on German Ubucon in October. There is still time to find someone about your project there. :)
<pleia2> off the top of my head I can't think of one, but I'll ask around, mind if I send your request to the ubuntu-women mailing list?
<pleia2> thanks dee!
<ClassBot> There are 10 minutes remaining in the current session.
<ClassBot> There are 5 minutes remaining in the current session.
<ClassBot> Logs for this session will be available at http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2013/05/21/%23ubuntu-classroom.html
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<pleia2> thanks everyone!
#ubuntu-classroom 2013-05-22
<stev96> hi
<stev96> http://ubucon.de/2013
<stev96> lets go?
* ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to the Ubuntu Classroom - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Classroom || Support in #ubuntu || Upcoming Schedule: http://is.gd/8rtIi || Questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat || Event: Ubuntu Open Week - Current Session: How to Contribute to the Ubuntu Touch Core Apps - Instructors: dpm
<ClassBot> Logs for this session will be available at http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2013/05/22/%23ubuntu-classroom.html following the conclusion of the session.
<dpm> Hey all, and welcome to the second day of Ubuntu Open Week!
<dpm> we'll wait for a minute for people to come in and then we can get started
<dpm> ok, let's roll
<dpm> For the late-comers, hi again and welcome to the second day of Ubuntu Open Week
<dpm> My name is David Planella, and I work in the Community team at Canonical as Ubuntu App Development Liaison.
<dpm> As such, my role involves coordinating and representing Ubuntu App Development,
<dpm> grow our developer community and act as a liaison with app authors who target our platform.
<dpm> Today I'm going to talk about the Ubuntu Touch Core Apps project, give an overview on what it is and how it works,
<dpm> and most importantly, on how everyone can participate
<dpm> If you've got any questions during the session,
<dpm> feel free to ask them any time on the #ubuntu-classroom-chat channel
<dpm> by prepending them with QUESTION:
<dpm> I'll also leave some time at the end of the session for Q&A
<dpm> So let's get started, shall we? ;-)
<dpm> # The Core Apps Project
<dpm>  
<dpm> After the Ubuntu Phone announcement, and as part of the phone platform we sent a call to our community
<dpm> to participate in building the core set of apps that will ship with the phone.
<dpm> With this, we started a really exciting project that provides a fantastic opportunity for community members
<dpm> to create software that could run on millions of handsets!
<dpm> We had an overwhelming response to our call for participation: nearly 2000 (!) individuals
<dpm> expressed their interest in contributing to core apps.
<dpm> From these replies, we formed dedicated development teams around each one of the apps,
<dpm> set up the development infrastructure around Launchpad,
<dpm> regular meetings to track progress
<dpm> and the communication channels to discuss development.
<dpm> These projects have been community-driven and run in the open from day one,
<dpm> which has made collaboration much easier.
<dpm> In essence, each team organizes their work and time in the way that works best for them,
<dpm> and Canonical participates providing the following resources:
<dpm> - Development infrastructure
<dpm> - Engineering management
<dpm> - Community mentorship and support
<dpm> - Design guidance
<dpm> (that should have probably been *mentoring, not even sure if mentorship exists ;)
<dpm> One thing to make clear is that all apps in this project will have to be reviewed and comply
<dpm> with the Ubuntu Touch quality expectations to be part of the default image.
<dpm> That an app is part of the Core Apps project only guarantees
<dpm> that it will be included if it complies with the quality standards.
<dpm> Currently, already 4 of our initial list of 12 core apps has already been included in the Ubuntu Touch images.
<dpm> Which is really good news
<dpm> So kudos to the Calculator, Calendar, Clock and Weather teams!
<dpm> ok, everything clear so far? Any questions?
<ClassBot> coolbhavi asked: is the sdk fully functional and the code is available somewhere?
<dpm> That's a really good question
<dpm> The SDK is fully functional
<dpm> and in fact it has already been used to create all of these apps
<dpm> we don't consider it as feature complete yet though, which is why we still call it the SDK alpha
<dpm> but the Beta is coming out in July
<dpm> and the 1.0 together with Ubuntu 13.10
<dpm> the code is public and available on https://launchpad.net/ubuntu-ui-toolkit
<dpm> ok, let's move on, then
<dpm>  
<dpm> # Designing Core Apps
<dpm>  
<dpm> At the same time, we kicked off an initiative to provide design suggestions for each one of the apps,
<dpm> to provide guidance to the development teams
<dpm> This was a very popular project too, with lots of exciting designs coming out of it. Check them out here:
<dpm>     https://ubuntu.mybalsamiq.com/projects/ubuntuphonecoreapps/grid
<dpm> The Canonical Design team are also participating in this project,
<dpm> and providing the direction for a subset of these core apps.
<dpm> They communicate regularly with developers to discuss designs and feedback
<dpm> from the teams and other contributors.
<dpm>  
<dpm> # Which Core Apps?
<dpm>  
<dpm> The core apps project currently comprises 12 applications,
<dpm> but this list might change slightly as we're evaluating the best set of applications to be part of the launch.
<dpm> You can see the list of core applications in Launchpad:
<dpm> 1.  Ubuntu Calculator App
<dpm> 2.  Ubuntu Calendar App
<dpm> 3.  Ubuntu Clock App
<dpm> 4.  Ubuntu Document Viewer App
<dpm> 5.  Ubuntu E-mail App
<dpm> 6.  Ubuntu Facebook App
<dpm> 7.  Ubuntu File Manager App
<dpm> 8.  Ubuntu Music App
<dpm> 9.  Ubuntu RSS Feed Reader App
<dpm> 10. Ubuntu Terminal App
<dpm> 11. Ubuntu Weather App
<dpm> 12. Ubuntu Youtube App
<dpm> As mentioned, these are managed and developed in Launchpad, our online collaboration tool:
<dpm>   https://launchpad.net/ubuntu-phone-coreapps
<dpm> There you'll find the links to the code and other resources for each one of the apps
<dpm>  
<dpm> # What are System Apps?
<dpm>  
<dpm> In parallel to the Core Apps,
<dpm> there is a set of applications that were developed
<dpm> by dedicated teams of Canonical Engineers as part of the first public Ubuntu Touch demo.
<dpm> They are currently also developed in the open,
<dpm> and the way to contribute is similar to core apps in the sense that code can be submitted for review and the roadmap is discussed in public,
<dpm> although they are run in a different way.
<dpm> They are outside of the scope of this session, but you can see these system apps here:
<dpm>   https://translations.launchpad.net/ubuntu-touch-preview
<dpm> These are apps such as the Camera, Gallery, Web browser, Notes, etc.
<dpm> And if you have any questions about them, just ask on #ubuntu-touch or send an e-mail to ubuntu-phone@lists(at)launchpad(dot)net
<dpm> ok, so it seems we've got some questions:
<ClassBot> coolbhavi asked: is there any possibility that all the social network platforms are integrated in a single app? so that it can be accessible at one touch?
<dpm> Yes. In fact, there is such an app already: Friends
<dpm> The good things is that it is not only an app, but it also provides a reusable library for any app to access social networks
<dpm> Check out https://blogs.gnome.org/kenvandine/2013/03/07/introducing-friends/
<dpm> The Facebook core app already uses the Friends library :)
<ClassBot> sebbu asked: is there a list of formats that will be suported by the document viewer, or a way to make suggestions ?
<dpm> You can check out the functional requirements for the doc viewer here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Touch/CoreApps/DocViewer
<dpm> and suggest and contribute to the support of new formats in the mailing list:
<dpm> https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-touch-coreapps/+join
<dpm>  
<dpm> # How to get started
<dpm>  
<dpm> Ok, so now comes the interesting bit,
<dpm> how can you contribute to Ubuntu being in millions of mobile devices!
<dpm> As mentioned before, the project is run in a completely open manner,
<dpm> so the way to contribute is not much different from the way other projects part of Ubuntu are run
<dpm>  
<dpm> ## 1. Pick an app
<dpm>  
<dpm> The first thing you'll need to do is to pick up a core app you'd like to work on
<dpm> You can see the list here:
<dpm>   https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Touch/CoreApps
<dpm> Just click on the link for your app of choice,
<dpm> which will take you to a page with all of the app details,
<dpm> and further links related to all of the app's resources,
<dpm> such as Launchpad project, team, IRC channel, blueprints, etc.
<dpm> This should give you a good overview about the app and how and where things are run
<dpm>  
<dpm> ## 2. Decide how you want to contribute
<dpm>  
<dpm> The main area for contribution in this project is development,
<dpm> but there are also many other opportunities for participation:
<dpm> - Bug reporting
<dpm> - Testing
<dpm> - Translations
<dpm> - Design suggestions
<dpm> - etc.
<dpm> So it's up to you to decide the best use for your skills if you're interested in being part of the project, as you see, there's a broad range of areas to contribute to!
<dpm>  
<dpm> ## 3. Get in touch
<dpm>  
<dpm> Regardless of the way in which you choose to contribute, you should be aware and follow the communication channels for the project
<dpm> The important thing when working within the community is to communicate in order to collaborate effectively
<dpm> I'd first suggest to subscribe to the mailing lists:
<dpm> 1) The Ubuntu Phone mailing list for general discussion on getting Ubuntu running on phones and other mobile devices:
<dpm> https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-phone/+join
<dpm> 2) The Ubuntu App Cats mailing list for all discussion related to the core apps project:
<dpm> https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-touch-coreapps/+join
<dpm> Also, each one of the development teams has got weekly meetings to discuss progress and solve any blockers
<dpm> You can see an overview of all meetings here:
<dpm> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Touch/CoreApps/Meetings
<dpm> There are IRC meetings and for some core apps video hangout meetings with the Design team
<dpm> If you're interested in participating in the development of any of those apps, I'd recommend joining the meeting
<dpm> <unknownman> asks: Can I see a detailed video overview anywhere with the latest updates and applications that already have?
<dpm> Each one of the teams or other contributors generally blog about progress, including videos, on our Ubuntu App Developers Google+ community, so I'd recommend to join us to keep up to date too :)
<dpm> https://plus.google.com/communities/111350780270925540549
<dpm>  
<dpm> ## 4. Development guide
<dpm>  
<dpm> If you've decided to contribute with development, here's your next stop: the Core Apps Development Guide
<dpm>  
<dpm>   https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Touch/CoreApps/DevelopmentGuide
<dpm>  
<dpm> This will help you get started with setting up the development environment and submitting your first contributions
<dpm> It is fairly easy, and it will help you especially if you are new to collaborative development with Launchpad
<dpm> The only requirements to get started is to have installed the Ubuntu SDK
<dpm> and to sign the Contributor Agreement, which is needed because some carriers and manufacturers require specific license agreements
<dpm> you'll see a more detailed explanation in the guide, but in summary, signing the agreement can be done really quickly with an online form and you retain the copyright of your contributions
<ClassBot> There are 10 minutes remaining in the current session.
<dpm> I think that pretty much summarizes everything I wanted to cover
<dpm> For each app, the Launchpad project link should take you to other areas of contribution, such as Translations and Bugs
<dpm> And finally, for testing those apps that are not yet on the image, you can do it easily either on a device or on your desktop!
<dpm> All core apps run on the desktop as well
<dpm> You can install them from this PPA: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Touch/CoreApps/PPA
<dpm> Phew, we're nearly at the end. Any questions?
<ClassBot> sebbu asked: do they run natively on the desktop or do they need some kind of emulator ?
<dpm> No emulation needed, apps will run natively on the desktop. You'll just need to install the SDK, which I believe is taken care of by the PPA packages
<ClassBot> There are 5 minutes remaining in the current session.
<dpm> In any case, here's how you can install the SDK: http://developer.ubuntu.com/get-started/gomobile/
<dpm> any other questions?
<dpm> In that case, we'll wrap it up here
<dpm> Thank you everyone for participating and for your questions. I hope you enjoyed the session and we can see your first contributions to core apps soon! :)
<dpm> ok, seems we've got another question :)
<ClassBot> sebbu asked: will the ppa only be available only for ubuntu, or for (some?) other distributions as well (debian, mandriva, fedora, etc...) ?
<dpm> PPAs are a way to distribute development or testing packages that are not available in the Ubuntu archive
<dpm> As such, PPAs are Ubuntu-specific
<dpm> you could install the packages manually on Debian
<dpm> but Fedora uses another packaging system
<dpm> The SDK is also Ubuntu-specific atm
<dpm> ok, I'll leave you in the good hands of my friend dholbach now!
<dholbach> Thanks dpm! :-)
<dholbach> Welcome everybody to the session about the Ubuntu Development team!
* ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to the Ubuntu Classroom - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Classroom || Support in #ubuntu || Upcoming Schedule: http://is.gd/8rtIi || Questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat || Event: Ubuntu Open Week - Current Session: Ubuntu Development Team - Instructors: dholbach
<dholbach> My name is Daniel Holbach, I work on the Ubuntu Community team along such nice people like dpm who you got to know earlier. :)
<ClassBot> Logs for this session will be available at http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2013/05/22/%23ubuntu-classroom.html following the conclusion of the session.
<dholbach> I love getting questions, so please ask whatever comes up in your mind - it'd be nice if it was loosely related to Ubuntu Development though. :)
<dholbach> and please prefix your questions with QUESTION:
<dholbach> So during the session I'll try to give you a broad overview over how the Ubuntu Development team works, so how Ubuntu the distribution, the operating system is put together.
<dholbach> Afterwards you won't be an Ubuntu developer (yet), but I hope you'll have at least heard of all the important moving parts and how they roughly fit together.
<dholbach> And again: ask! If I don't make sense or things are unclear or you're curious... ask.
<dholbach> Here we go. :)
<dholbach> Ubuntu is made up of thousands of different components, written in many different programming languages. Every component - be it a software library, a tool or a graphical application - is available as a source package.
<dholbach> Source packages in most cases consist of two parts: the actual source code and metadata. Metadata includes the dependencies of the package, copyright and licensing information, and instructions on how to build the package.
<dholbach> Once this source package is compiled, the build process provides binary packages, which are the .deb files users can install.
<dholbach> Every time a new version of an application is released, or when someone makes a change to the source code that goes into Ubuntu, the source package must be uploaded to Launchpadâs build machines to be compiled. The resulting binary packages then are distributed to the archive and its mirrors in different countries. The URLs in /etc/apt/sources.list point to an archive or mirror.
<dholbach> Every day CD images are built for a selection of different Ubuntu flavours. Ubuntu Desktop, Ubuntu Server, Kubuntu and others specify a list of required packages that get on the CD. These CD images are then used for installation tests and provide the feedback for further release planning.
<dholbach> Does that make sense so far? Any questions?
<dholbach> All right, seems like we're good.
<dholbach> Ubuntuâs development is very much dependent on the current stage of the release cycle. We release a new version of Ubuntu every six months, which is only possible because we have established strict freeze dates. With every freeze date that is reached developers are expected to make fewer, less intrusive changes
<dholbach> If you have a look at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SaucySalamander/ReleaseSchedule you can see the release schedule for "saucy salamander" which is going to be Ubuntu 13.10.
<dholbach> Feature Freeze is the first big freeze date after the first half of the cycle has passed. At this stage features must be largely implemented. The rest of the cycle is supposed to be focused on fixing bugs.
<dholbach> After that the user interface, then the documentation, the kernel, etc. are frozen, then the beta release is put out which receives a lot of testing. From the beta release onwards, only critical bugs get fixed and a release candidate release is made and if it does not contain any serious problems, it becomes the final release.
<ClassBot> SonikkuAmerica asked: I assume "CD image" is just a generic term for a Live image, as (at least) the desktop images don't fit on CDs anymore...?
<dholbach> SonikkuAmerica, Yes, that's correct - I should have said "image". Only saying "CD image" was never correct, as there always were DVD images as well, or images for netboot. Now we have images for tablets and phones as well.
<dholbach> Any more questions about images or the release process?
<dholbach> As you can see on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SaucySalamander/ReleaseSchedule still in the "green" phase. This is where almost any change can still be uploaded. The more "red" you see down the line, the harder it will be to get risky changes included.
<dholbach> Ok, let's talk a bit about how the team communicates.
<dholbach> Thousands of source packages, billions of lines of code, hundreds of contributors require a lot of communication and planning to maintain high standards of quality.
<dholbach> At the beginning and during the release cycle we have the Ubuntu Developer Summits where developers and contributors come together to plan the features of the next releases.
<dholbach> Every feature is discussed by its stakeholders and a specification is written that contains detailed information about its assumptions, implementation, the necessary changes in other places, how to test it and so on. This is all done in an open and transparent fashion, so you can participate and listen to a videocast, get involved, chat with attendants and subscribe to changes of specifications, so you are always up to date.
<ClassBot> coolbhavi asked: with a 6 month release process, do you allocate sufficient time for testing packages and if so when?
<dholbach> coolbhavi, good one!
<dholbach> Yes. There are multiple ways in which put what we produce to the test.
<dholbach> There are many testing initiatives and Nicholas Skaggs gave a session about it yesterday, which you may want to go and check out: http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2013/05/21/%23ubuntu-classroom.html#t16:01
<dholbach> In short though: we do a lot of automated testing on the parts of Ubuntu we write, we also do a lot of manual testing (like image testing or specific apps), and use autopkgtest as well, which is interesting because tests are run for every upload of the package or when its dependencies change.
<dholbach> This gives us quite a good reassurance over when things might break.
<dholbach> Any more questions about testing or the communication bits I mentioned earlier?
<dholbach> If you are curious about what was discussed at the last UDS, you might want to check out http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-1305/ which has links to all the sessions we held last week and what was discussed there.
<dholbach> Not every single change can be discussed in a meeting though, particularly because Ubuntu relies on changes that are done in other projects. That is why contributors to Ubuntu constantly stay in touch. Most teams or projects use dedicated mailing lists to avoid too much unrelated noise. For more immediate coordination, developers and contributors use Internet Relay Chat (IRC). All discussions are open and public.
<dholbach> Another important tool regarding communication is bug reports. Whenever a defect is found in a package or piece of infrastructure, a bug report is filed in Launchpad.
<dholbach>  All information is collected in that report and its importance, status and assignee updated when necessary. This makes it an effective tool to stay on top of bugs in a package or project and organise the workload.
<dholbach> Most of the software available through Ubuntu is not written by Ubuntu developers themselves. Most of it is written by developers of other Open Source projects and then integrated into Ubuntu.
<dholbach> These projects are called âUpstreamsâ, because their source code flows into Ubuntu, where we âjustâ integrate it. The relationship to Upstreams is critically important to Ubuntu. It is not just code that Ubuntu gets from Upstreams, but it is also that Upstreams get users, bug reports and patches from Ubuntu (and other distributions).
<dholbach> The most important Upstream for Ubuntu is Debian. Debian is the distribution that Ubuntu is based on and many of the design decisions regarding the packaging infrastructure are made there.
<dholbach> Traditionally, Debian has always had dedicated maintainers for every single package or dedicated maintenance teams. In Ubuntu there are teams that have an interest in a subset of packages too, and naturally every developer has a special area of expertise, but participation (and upload rights) generally is open to everyone who demonstrates ability and willingness.
<dholbach> Getting a change into Ubuntu as a new contributor is not as daunting as it seems and can be a very rewarding experience. It is not only about learning something new and exciting, but also about sharing the solution and solving a problem for millions of users out there.
<ClassBot> coolbhavi asked: I read about syncing from upstream and merging from upstream. Whats the difference?
<dholbach> coolbhavi, I wanted to get to that in just a minute. :-)
<dholbach> But I can give a very quick answer here already.
<dholbach> Essentially we try to work together with Upstream projects, but sometimes, for example due to different timescales or needs, we might go ahead with adding a change in Ubuntu before it's included Upstream - sometimes we also need to do it to integrate the software better into Ubuntu.
<dholbach> In those cases we have a "delta" over Upstream. We deviated slightly.
<dholbach> So whenever source code changes in Debian, we will have to make sure that our changes are merged in a more recent version again.
<dholbach> "Merging" in terms of Ubuntu package maintenance means: "take new source code from Debian and integrate our changes".
<dholbach> "Syncing" means that the changes can either be dropped or are accepted in Debian as well, so our Ubuntu-local version of the package can be overwritten.
<ClassBot> nik90 asked: If one wants to be a maintainer of a package in Ubuntu, is it required to run the latest Ubuntu version?
<dholbach> nik90, good one!
<dholbach> Yes, it's a good idea to run the latest development release - and if only in a virtual machine or a separate partition or something.
<dholbach> It's necessary, so you can test the build and test the package in the version your users are going to use it.
<dholbach> Otherwise it's very easy to "just upload" a change and never know if it actually worked the way you intended.
<dholbach> Or let's say you upload your app, but in the latest release some library it depends on changed and it crashes or behaves differently.
<dholbach> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UsingDevelopmentReleases explains how to set up a development release in a sane and safe way.
<dholbach> ... although it has become much much much more stable than in the past.
<dholbach> In the last 3-4 releases, you could run the development release very early already and it was rock-solid.
<ClassBot> nik90 asked: Are members of the Ubuntu Development Team involved in the coding of features or just making sure that the package is up to date with upstream?
<dholbach> nik90, there are both
<dholbach> There are many who work on dedicated parts of the system, depending on their interests, but there are generalists as well, who enjoy maintaining packages and keeping large parts of the archive in shape.
<dholbach> We have need for all of them. :-)
<ClassBot> fr33r1d3 asked: Is 13.10 "stable" already?
<dholbach> fr33r1d3, considering that "saucy" is still only 3 weeks old, I expect a few more turbulences in its early days. I currently run it in a VM only - but everything I tested there worked just fine for me. :)
<ClassBot> nik90 asked: which irc room do you recommend me to join if I have more questions regarding testing and packaging apps? Or are there any other way to get help?
<dholbach> nik90, Definitely #ubuntu-motu. There are many many friendly folks in there who are happy to help out.
<dholbach> I'm going to give a few links by the end of the session which should help you get started.
<dholbach> Open Source Development happens in a distributed world with different goals and different areas of focus. For example there might be the case that a particular Upstream is interested in working on a new big feature while Ubuntu, because of the tight release schedule, is interested in shipping a solid version with just an additional bug fix.
<dholbach> That is why we make use of âDistributed Developmentâ, where code is being worked on in various branches that are merged with each other after code reviews and sufficient discussion.
<dholbach> So as I said in my explanation to coolbhavi earlier, sometimes you have cases where an Upstream ships an 1.0 version of an app, you add an additional bug fix, Upstream in the meantime works on 1.1, which adds a lot of crazy new features, but if it's too late in our release cycle, 1.1 will have to wait for the next Ubuntu release.
<dholbach> That's sometimes a hard decision to make, particularly if you have angry users who want "the latest and greatest", but it's often a good idea in terms of stability.
<ClassBot> coolbhavi asked: I have already made a first upload.. is there anyone i can reach out for further help in the process?
<dholbach> coolbhavi, I wanted to mention a few links towards the end of the session about this, but yeah - there is! :)
<dholbach> The MOTU team is definitely the way to go. #ubuntu-motu and ubuntu-motu@lists.ubuntu.com is a good place for you to get advice and help.
<dholbach> There's also the Developer Advisory Team, who will reach out to you during your development journey at some stage - they can also be of help.
<dholbach> To fix a bug in Ubuntu, you would first get the source code for the package, then work on the fix, document it so it is easy to understand for other developers and users, then build the package to test it.
<dholbach>  After you have tested it, you can easily propose the change to be included in the current Ubuntu development release. A developer with upload rights will review it for you and then get it integrated into Ubuntu.
<dholbach> These code reviews are nothing to be afraid of. The people you work with here are friendly and won't shout at you for making mistakes.
<dholbach> Not everything is in our documentation (it'd be huge and indigestible otherwise), but you'll learn a lot about conventions and the common tricks in code reviews.
<dholbach> That's how you slowly grow into the team.
<ClassBot> Abunujum asked: ââI'm currently learning how to make web apps, And i would like to publish some for the Software Center, but how can I package them?
<dholbach> Abunujum, I'll give some links to documentation later on. https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopment/NewPackages is a page specifically about getting totally new packages into Ubuntu.
<dholbach> When trying to find a solution it is usually a good idea to check with Upstream and see if the problem (or a possible solution) is known already and, if not, do your best to make the solution a concerted effort.
<dholbach> So you can see: it's a bit of detective work and it's a lot of team work - which makes the whole experience very interesting and you'll get to know many people.
<dholbach> When you fix bugs additional steps might involve getting the change backported to an older, still supported version of Ubuntu and forwarding it to Upstream.
<dholbach> Any more questions? :)
<dholbach> The most important requirements for success in Ubuntu development are: having a knack for âmaking things work again,â not being afraid to read documentation and ask questions, being a team player and enjoying some detective work.
<dholbach> You don't need to know every programming language on the planet. We have quite a number of simple bugs which are simple enough to understand and resolve.
<dholbach> And as I said earlier: Good places to ask your questions are ubuntu-motu@lists.ubuntu.com and #ubuntu-motu on irc.freenode.net.
<dholbach> You're not on your own.
<dholbach> You will easily find a lot of new friends and people with the same passion that you have: making the world a better place by making better Open Source software.
<ClassBot> Abunujum asked: ââWhat programming language do recommend to use to make ubuntu software?
<dholbach> Abunujum: that entirely depends on what you want to achieve.
<dholbach> For example if you work on some low-level or hardware-related pieces of Ubuntu, you will very likely have to use C or C++
<dholbach> Many applications in Ubuntu are written in Python though and with Ubuntu Touch and the Ubuntu SDK coming up, it got very interesting to use QML.
<dholbach> If you work on existing packages and fix bugs there, you are very likely going to use whatever the software itself was written in.
<dholbach> This is a very interesting learning experience, as you dive into existing code, try to find the issue, read some documentation and hopefully get to the point where you fix the bug. :)
<dholbach> I personally learnt a lot this way.
<ClassBot> fr33r1d3 asked: Describe QML in short...
<dholbach> QML is the Qt Meta Language or Qt Modeling Language.
<dholbach> It allows you to write apps in which you write in a declarative way how the app should look like or how it should behave.
<dholbach> So modelling the UI becomes very easy and you don't need to worry about writing a lot of actual code.
<dholbach> When you get to the point where you define the actual logic of your app you can then very easily tie in JavaScript, or any other language, like C++ or Python.
<ClassBot> Abunujum asked: ââI would also like to know, Is it possible to develop ubuntu touch applications using python
<dholbach> Yes, it is. Although you might want to do some investigation in the beginning to find out if using Python won't have a negative impact in terms of startup time or memory consumption. The people in the #ubuntu-touch channel should be able to give you a good idea. It will also depend on what exactly you want to achieve.
<ClassBot> fr33r1d3 asked: I read at the UDS that they want to start tell people to not use Quickly anymore.. Is it safe to still use it or?
<dholbach> fr33r1d3, Yes, it's still safe to use it. If you start a fresh project, you might want to investigate though if the Ubuntu SDK with Qt Creator doesn't give you a better experience.
<dholbach> Oh and coming back to the earlier question about QML and how to use it - http://developer.ubuntu.com/get-started/gomobile/ has a really nice tutorial for getting started.
<dholbach> It should also show you the beauty of how easily apps can be written.
<ClassBot> There are 10 minutes remaining in the current session.
<dholbach> So to re-cap a bit on what I said earlier... if you're interested on working on Ubuntu itself and making it work great - be sure to check out and bookmark http://developer.ubuntu.com/packaging/
<dholbach> the title of the webpage is a bit misleading - it's not only about packaging, but it's more about developing Ubuntu itself
<dholbach> you'll learn about packaging, about our release processes, about how our infrastructure works and everything else
<dholbach> the guide is currently available in English, Spanish, Russian and Brazilian Portuguese
<dholbach> We are also always looking for people who can help us translating it. https://translations.launchpad.net/ubuntu-packaging-guide/ should make that very easy.
<dholbach> So if you speak a language other than English, try to help out a little bit - many upcoming developers will appreciate it.
<dholbach> Any more questions?
<ClassBot> There are 5 minutes remaining in the current session.
<dholbach> So to illustrate, that we have simple bugs which can be fixed, you can take a look at https://code.launchpad.net/~fourdollars/software-properties/fix-1138121-a-typo-in-CountryInformation.py/+merge/151870 for example.
<dholbach> Down at the bottom you can see the "diff".
<dholbach> The green lines indicate lines which were added, red lines indicate code which was removed.
<dholbach> So apart from the bits in debian/changelog, there's only one line which changed, essentially "common-name" was changed to "common_name". This fixed a bug in Ubuntu. :)
<dholbach> Sometimes it takes a little bit to get there and find out what exactly it's broken.
<dholbach> Still, it's worth it - you're going to make millions of Ubuntu users happier. :)
<dholbach> So go and bookmark http://developer.ubuntu.com/packaging/ and you won't be disappointed on the journey. :)
<dholbach> Thanks a lot everyone for your questions!
<dholbach> Next up is jsalisbury who is going to give you an introduction to the Ubuntu Kernel Team!
<jsalisbury> dholbach, o/
<jsalisbury> Hi All, My name is Joe Salisbury, I am the kernel defect analyst for the Kernel Team at Canonical
<jsalisbury> Today, I'll be talking about kernel bug triage, the different Importance and Status fields for a bug and some typical debugging tasks commonly requested when triaging a bug.
* ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to the Ubuntu Classroom - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Classroom || Support in #ubuntu || Upcoming Schedule: http://is.gd/8rtIi || Questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat || Event: Ubuntu Open Week - Current Session: Ubuntu Kernel Team - Instructors: jsalisbury
 * jsalisbury thanks the bot
<ClassBot> Logs for this session will be available at http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2013/05/22/%23ubuntu-classroom.html following the conclusion of the session.
<jsalisbury> Questions should be asked on the #ubuntu-classroom-chat channel. If you want to ask a question, write it there, and precede it with 'QUESTION:'. For example:
<jsalisbury> QUESTION: What is an Upstream kernel?
<jsalisbury> First, for details about the Ubuntu kernel, the top level Kernel wiki page can be found at:
<jsalisbury> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Kernel
<jsalisbury> There is also a page dedicated to kernel bug triage, which can be found at:
<jsalisbury> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Kernel/BugTriage
<jsalisbury> The kernel bug triage page is a great place to start if interested in learning more about triaging kernel bugs.
<jsalisbury> Bug triage is a great place to start to learn about the kernel.
<jsalisbury> Triaging kernel bugs provides a way to learn about a variety of kernel sub systems
<jsalisbury> The Ubuntu Linux Kernel has quite a large number for bugs opened against it.  Close to 5000 as of today.  A full list of bugs can be seen at:
<jsalisbury> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux
<jsalisbury> I generally focus on triaging and escalating bugs opened against the current development kernel, which is currently Saucy.
<jsalisbury> That's not to say there is no focus on the stable kernels.
<jsalisbury> Each and every kernel bug reported should be triaged, which could be against the current development kernel or any of the prior supported stable kernels.
<jsalisbury> The priority with the development kernel is to identify bugs and hit them hard and fast, so we can fix as many issues as possible, before release.
<jsalisbury> On the other hand, stable kernel bugs can take longer to fix.  This is because a patch for a bug must go through the Stable Release Update process:
<jsalisbury> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/StableHandbook/StableProcess
<jsalisbury> Details on stable kernels can be found here:
<jsalisbury> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Kernel/Handbook/Stable
<jsalisbury> To assist with the large number of kernel bugs reported, the kernel team has developed bug 'Bots' to review each new bug, and ensure all the required apport logs are attached.
<jsalisbury> If all the information is there the bug Status is changed from 'New' to 'Confirmed'.  If the bug is missing the apport logs, the bug Status is set to 'Incomplete' and a request for the logs is posted to the bug.
<jsalisbury> After the bot sets the bug to 'Confirmed', the bug is reviewed.  Based on the bug description, I will see if the bug is similar to recent bugs and may be a duplicate.
<jsalisbury> I will also determine what kernel subsystem the bug affects.  The bug might be specific to USB, wifi, graphics, suspend/resume, etc.
<jsalisbury> I will ask subsystem specific questions to collect that specific data.
<jsalisbury> The following wiki has some pages on specific debugging by subsystem:
<jsalisbury> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Kernel/Debugging
<jsalisbury> Once a bug has all the needed information, I will usually ask that the latest Mainline kernel is tested and then set the bug to Incomplete, until the testing is done.  The latest Mainline kernel is the kernel that is currently being developed upstream, and is considered Linus' tree.
<jsalisbury> The reason for testing this kernel is to see if the bug is already fixed upstream.  If it is, usually the current Ubuntu devlelopmt kernel will get this fix when it is rebased to the latest Mainline kernel.
<jsalisbury> Testing the Mainline kernel will also tell us if the bug exists upstream.  If the bug does exist upstream, we like to ask the Bug Reporter to open a bug with upstream, so the issue is known to the upstream Developers as well.
<ClassBot> Nova__ asked: How we can contribute to Kernel team ?
<ClassBot> sebbu asked: if there is so many bugs, does that means that it doesn't work well ?
<jsalisbury> There is a wiki that describes how to report a bug upstream here:
<jsalisbury> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Bugs/Upstream/kernel
<jsalisbury> We also ask for testing of the Mainline kernel when a bug is reported against a stable kernel.  For the same reason it will tell us if the bug is already fixed.
<jsalisbury> However, just because a bug is fixed upstream, doesn't mean a stable kernel will ever get that fix.
<jsalisbury> Depending on the bug, we may also ask for testing of the latest upstream stable kernel.
<jsalisbury> For example, Precise is based on the 3.2 kernel.  Currently Precise has all the upstream updates up to 3.2.39
<jsalisbury> However, the latest upstream 3.2 stable kernel is 3.2.45.  Eventually Precise will get the 3.2.45 updates, so it is beneficial to know if the bug is already fixed there.
<jsalisbury> If it is, we usually just need to wait until the bug is fixed when the release gets those upstream updates.
<jsalisbury> As mentioned earlier, there may be a case when a bug is fixed in Mainline, but is not fixed in the latest upstream stable kernel for a release.
<ClassBot> niagr asked: How can we learn about the working of the kernel?
<jsalisbury> niagr, The best way is to review some of the kernel wiki pages.
<jsalisbury> niagr, the top level Ubuntu kernel wiki page is at:
<jsalisbury> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Kernel
<jsalisbury> niagr, there are topics on bug triage, like I'm talking about now, testing, and kernel development as well
<jsalisbury> niagr, there are many other resources around the Internet as well.
<jsalisbury> So there may be a case when a bug is fixed in Mainline, but is not fixed in the latest upstream stable kernel for a release.
<jsalisbury> This can happen when a patch is submitted upstream, but does not include the Cc to the upstream stable kernel.
<jsalisbury> If this is the case, I will perform what is called a "Reverse" kernel bisect.  This debugging process is used to identify a patch upstream that fixes a specific bug.
<jsalisbury> Before going down the debugging of a specific type of bug, lets step back to the bug triage flow.
<jsalisbury> First a bot checks for the apport logs, then the bug is reviewed and a request is made to test the latest Mainline kernel.
<jsalisbury> The next thing we need to know is if this bug is a regression or not.
<jsalisbury> It a bug is not a regression, it has all the apport logs, and testing of the Mainline kernel does not fix the bug, the bug status is set to "Triaged".
<jsalisbury> If the bug is a regression, we can perform a kernel bisect to identify the commit that introduced the bug.
<jsalisbury> The steps to perform a bisect can be found at:
<jsalisbury> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Kernel/KernelBisection
<jsalisbury> The entire details of a kernel bisect can take some time, so it may be best for another session at some point.  But I'll give a summary.
<jsalisbury> Basically we first need to identify the last kernel version that did not have the bug and the first kernel version that did have the bug.
<jsalisbury> Once we have these two versions, We provide these two version numbers into git bisect.  Git then tells us a kernel commit that is about halfway between these two versions.
<jsalisbury> Using this information, I build a test kernel up to this commit and ask the bug reporter to test it.
<jsalisbury> Based on the test results, I tell git whether or not the kernel exhibited the bug.
<jsalisbury> Git will then spit out the next commit id(SHA1), which is again half way in between the last good and first bad commit.
<jsalisbury> I then build another test kernel, ask for it to be tested, and feed the result back into git.
<jsalisbury> Eventually this process will yield the SHA1 of the patch that introduced the regression.
<jsalisbury> Then next step is determined after reviewing the details of the patch that introduced the regression.
<jsalisbury> The bug can be fixed by creating a new patch.  The patch that introduced the regression can be reverted and/or upstream will be contacted to get it fixed upstream as well.
<jsalisbury> Like I mentioned earlier there is also a "Reverse" bisect.  A reverse bisect is used to identify a commit that fixes a bug.
<jsalisbury> This is basically the same process as a standard bisect, but git is told the opposite of the testing results.
<jsalisbury> Eventually though the same process, git will report the SHA1 of the patch that fixes the bug.
<jsalisbury> Depending on the patch, the fix will then be cherry-picked or backported and an SRU request submitted.
<jsalisbury> Where or not a bisect or reverse bisect is performed, depends on the bug.
<jsalisbury> Usually the priority of the bug and/or the number of people affected will decide.
<jsalisbury> Since I talked about it, if you want to learn more details about git, there is a wiki page at:
<jsalisbury> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Git
<jsalisbury> To track bugs, the kernel team created a variety of reports, which can be found at:
<jsalisbury> http://reqorts.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/kernel-bugs/reports/index.html
<jsalisbury> There is a report for all the supported stable releases, CVE's, bugs that are fixed upstream and a "Hot List".
<jsalisbury> The "Hot List" or Priority bug list is used to track important bugs and get them on the kernel developers radar.
<jsalisbury> About 15 minutes left in this session.
<jsalisbury> That was a real quick overview of kernel bug triage.
<jsalisbury> At this point, I'd like to open it up and see if there are and questions.
<jsalisbury> Ok.  If anyone does think of any questions at some point, I'm usually available on the Freenode channel #ubuntu-kernel
<jsalisbury> Again, if your interested in getting involved in kernel bug triage, the best place to start is by reviewing the wiki:
<jsalisbury> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Kernel/BugTriage
<jsalisbury> Thanks everyone for attending.
<jsalisbury> Looks like sabdfl is up next with: Ask Mark!
<ClassBot> There are 10 minutes remaining in the current session.
<ClassBot> There are 5 minutes remaining in the current session.
* ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to the Ubuntu Classroom - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Classroom || Support in #ubuntu || Upcoming Schedule: http://is.gd/8rtIi || Questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat || Event: Ubuntu Open Week - Current Session: Ask Mark! - Instructors: sabdfl
<ClassBot> Logs for this session will be available at http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2013/05/22/%23ubuntu-classroom.html following the conclusion of the session.
<sabdfl> hi folks, how are you all?
<sabdfl> philipballew, hi, thanks for marshalling the questions, ready when you are!
<sabdfl> apparently philip will be along shortly
<philipballew> sabdfl, alright, lets start here in just a sec.
<sabdfl> meanwhile, if you folks would like to pop questions in the ClassBot queue, i can ... aha, hi philip
<philipballew> So welcome everyone to the session, here we can ask Mark ( sabdfl ) questions about Ubuntu the time is about to start.
<philipballew> Just a reminder, do not ask  for techinical support questions or such, since Mark will probably not have that machine, and also, just tell you to go to Ask Ubuntu anyway...
<philipballew> Alright, lets ask away!
<sabdfl> i do have a Dell XPS 13, and happy to answer questions about that ;)
<ClassBot> nik90 asked: It is awesome to have a preview of Unity 8 in 13.10! Excited to try it out! However is it wise to use Unity 8 for the first time on a LTS release?
<sabdfl> nik90, good question. the current plan is to stretch for unity8 in 14.04 LTS, but we are confident we can have unity7 running there just fine
<sabdfl> we already support unity7 and it's getting faster and cleaner as we go
<ClassBot> Nova__ asked: Can we switch between Unity8 and Mir and Unity 7 in 13.10 in Login screen?
<sabdfl> we do want to unify some of the underlying layers, but i'm confident we can take the right decision closer to the time with more evidence on where the pieces came out
<philipballew> actually Nova__  might wanna try Ask Ubuntu for that
<sabdfl> what would be very welcome is to have folks who are excited about unity8 getting familiar with the code and connecting the dots from tablet to desktop
<sabdfl> right now, our focus is very much the phone and tablet
<sabdfl> but we'd welcome patches that start to integrate desktop capabilities ahead of schedule
<sabdfl> next!
<sabdfl> Nova__, yes, should be able to
<sabdfl> next!
<ClassBot> SonikkuAmerica asked: Through Ubuntu IRC channels, I've gotten the impression that Unity 8 is just "a Qt frontend for GNOME." Could you discuss (without giving anyway anything meant to be kept secret) how Unity 8 is truly supposed to function? (I mean I'm getting the impression that the next Unity isn't what it was intended for and such)
<sabdfl> with the work that's going into phone and mobile we're rapidly building a great community around a new portfolio of apps
<sabdfl> those apps will all stretch from phone to desktop (and tv ;)
<sabdfl> we would like to attract developers from a wide range of backgrounds, including GNOME and KDE
<sabdfl> and make it easy for them to deliver amazing experiences on unity
<sabdfl> we're not going to get into an ideological fight, and we think developers should choose
<sabdfl> those new apps are all in Qt, but i'd love to see a version of the GIMP which sings on the phone and tablet
<sabdfl> and we've built a lot of foundations to support that
<sabdfl> but we can't do the work for every app, and we won't fight with an upstream over where they want to be relevant
<sabdfl> we're seeing amazing commitments from games companies and others who have done well on IOS and Android
<sabdfl> but i'd like to bring as much of the FLOSS ecosystem along with us too
<sabdfl> everyone's welcome
<sabdfl> next!
<ClassBot> FlyingPig asked: Have you got an Ubuntu phone? :-)
<sabdfl> i do, and the team is focused on getting some key pieces DONE so you can reasonably use it as a regular phone
<sabdfl> things like contact import and sync, not installing sample data, working 3G and 4G on targeted devices etc
<sabdfl> did you see the Bing and Google Maps performance video yesterday?
<sabdfl> pretty cool stuff
<sabdfl> so, very shortly i expect the hardcore can carry ubuntu as a daily driver
<sabdfl> and we'll grow from there
<sabdfl> next!
<ClassBot> eliasps asked: What are so far the intensions from NVIDIA and AMD to support Mir? Have they expressed any informal views on that matter? If support for only one of the future x-server technologies (Mir or Wayland) is chosen, will any of these two be able to use the other's binary blob, or is there too much spec difference?
<sabdfl> eliasps, too soon to tell, but history suggests that open source communities are prone to hystrionics up front and pragmatism in the long term ;)
<sabdfl> so the hystrionics were unsurprising and a pragmatic result would be equally unsurprising
<sabdfl> the decisionmaking in Mir was solid: Wayland did not meet our needs or yours, we chose to invest in something, and we chose to do it in a very quality-driven way
<sabdfl> i find it bizarre to be criticised for writing open source software, and writing it with quality and performance in mind from the start
<sabdfl> and much of the mud that was flung was unjustified
<sabdfl> but that's the hystrionics part, it will happen again I'm sure :)
<sabdfl> anyhow, Mir is pretty fantastic already - crisp, clean, fast, focused
<sabdfl> next!
<sabdfl> NikTh asked: With Unity's new version re-written in QML, how do GNOME's development and decisions affect it? Is there a plan for Unity to become less dependent on Gnome, if not on a library level, at least on a core apps (eg. nautilus Â gnome-terminal etc.) level?
<ClassBot> NikTh asked: Older (x_86 only) machines are already facing major performance issues when using Unity with LLVMPIPE technology. Is there a point to continue shipping x_86 versions of the default Ubuntu desktop for future releases, especially if there is going to be any increase on system requirements ? Wouldn't it be better if this would be left to handle by Ubuntu flavors using a non-accelerated DE ? Is there going to be an increase on sys
<sabdfl> we'll work as closely with both GNOME and KDE as we can
<sabdfl> we have both great relationships and terrible relationships in both cases
<sabdfl> there are individuals in GNOME and in KDE that are, respectively, either fantastic or impossible to work with
<sabdfl> so disregard any bland statements about how 'KDE' and 'Canonical' engage
<sabdfl> because, as always, it boils  down to figuring out who wants to work together, and who doesn't
<sabdfl> we will do great stuff with both
<sabdfl> and hopefully, act as a central anchor for common standards
<sabdfl> like we did with indicators, with KDE
<sabdfl> it's difficult to disregard mudslinging, but if you can't, it becomes impossible to imagine getting anything done together
<sabdfl> as for your question on performance
<sabdfl> Mir will make it much easier to have really fast performance across the board
<sabdfl> as will unity8
<sabdfl> with unity7 we wanted to try to deliver a 3D experience - layers and blurs - that was impractical. with unity8, it will be tighter
<sabdfl> and therefor, faster
<sabdfl> next!
<ClassBot> eliasps asked: Has there been any intention on any of the major (Dell, Lenovo, HP) manufacturers to increase availability and model range of Ubuntu-preinstalled laptops in Europe? Is there a time frame on this?
<sabdfl> eliasps, well, if you've been watching, in the last six months you've seen quite a lot of new models from HP, Asus, Dell etc in Europe, and elsewhere
<sabdfl> that will I expect continue
<sabdfl> next!
<ClassBot> energichen asked: When mysterious chip supplier will be revealed, it was promised after MWC, but long time passed since then and no info about that?
<sabdfl> energichen, we have a preference to announce things in the most impactful way possible
<sabdfl> and it isn't the right time to announce that, here :)
<sabdfl> but well spotted, it's an important step, and i'm very happy that we have made good progress on the silicon front
<sabdfl> next!
<ClassBot> PaulW2U asked: Mark, I'm a Kubuntu and Lubuntu user and until recently a Xubuntu user. How do i fit into Canonical's long term plans?
<sabdfl> PaulW2U, i hope we continue to strengthen our relationships in the broader ubuntu tent, and add more options too
<sabdfl> i love that all of those options exist and invest a good deal to make it possible
<sabdfl> there is work to be done - every cycle, meshing all these gears takes work
<sabdfl> but we certainly don't take decisions to exclude elements of our own community
<sabdfl> it's often a nice headline -grabbing hypothesis for a blogger, but there's no substance to it
<sabdfl> at a bare minimum, you will always be able to run any X environment on Ubuntu
<sabdfl> we've gone to a lot of effort to retain that
<sabdfl> now, if a particular person or upstream wants to refuse the ability to engage, that would be weird, but it would be their brand of weird, not mine
<sabdfl> so anyway, of all the options you listed, i see no reason why they would cease to exist
<sabdfl> and plenty that they could get faster, smoother, better, by continuing to ride the ubuntu train
<sabdfl> next!
<ClassBot> d0od asked: Canonical will be Computex next month with Ubuntu Touch for phones and tablets. Will Ubuntu TV also feature? Is Ubuntu TV still 'in active development'?
<sabdfl> d0od, aspects of the TV are in active development, but the heart of our team is focused on the phone
<sabdfl> we did enough of the TV to prove our design core, and then we've put in place a thread of investment on some background pieces that are needed, to do with TV standards
<sabdfl> when we want to connect those pieces, or when someone else steps up, it will happen
<sabdfl> but being great on the phone is the most important thing
<sabdfl> the volumes are there, and developers are there
<sabdfl> next!
<ClassBot> IdleOne asked: Now that UDS has gone virtual you haven't given keynote speeches in the last two vUDS. For some of us that was a highlight of the week. How come?
<sabdfl> i'm stumped.
<sabdfl> will do it next time. thanks!
<sabdfl> i guess i always thought of UDS as being about the core sessions, where we map out options and take decision
<sabdfl> s
<sabdfl> and the keynote has mainly been about setting the scene
<sabdfl> but you're absolutely right
<sabdfl> and maybe i can do a retro-active one for this last one
<sabdfl> i really like the vUDS thing
<sabdfl> what a great example of the sky NOT falling in after all :)
<sabdfl> much better the second time
<sabdfl> sort of like... unity ;)
<sabdfl> next!
<ClassBot> fr33r1d3 asked: Are you only using Ubuntu, or are you having some other OS on some computer too?
<sabdfl> i have Windows VMs, and IOS and MacOS devices in the house
<sabdfl> next!
<ClassBot> FlyingPig asked: What do you think about systemd? Will Ubuntu continue to use Upstart or eventually switch to systemd?
<sabdfl> i think we will continue with Upstart, though i'm watching the Debian discussion closely
<sabdfl> here's how i look at it
<sabdfl> first, this is by definition a critical piece of infrastructure, so having a clean architecture is important
<sabdfl> the upstart architecture is very clean, it does one thing VERY well, and it does it in a way that is very good for dynamic environments, like cloud servers and mobile devices
<sabdfl> i think the authors of systemd are taking substantial risks by pushing so much stuff into systemd. we can continue to use those bits (look at the packaging in 13.10) with upstart
<sabdfl> but i'm glad we don't have a monolithic init, because i think upstart is proven, flexible fast, stable, and tested
<sabdfl> there are very little benefits to be had: it's simply not true that one will end up booting even 10% faster than the other, for example
<sabdfl> and upstart is MUCH better for a crowdsourced platform, like Ubuntu or Debian, because it's event-driven, the pieces declare what they need, and Upstart solves the interactions
<sabdfl> so, you drop in the event relationships you want to maintain, and upstart figures out how to achieve that
<sabdfl> that's much more maintainable in a loosely-coupled world
<sabdfl> and makes for more share-able pieces
<sabdfl> second, it's not a decision that we have to take soon
<sabdfl> upstart has proven itself, and is continuing to get even better
<sabdfl> user sessions in upstart are AMAZING
<sabdfl> check out some of the demos and youtube videos
<sabdfl> very flexible and powerful
<sabdfl> and *shareable*
<sabdfl> because of the event-driven model
<sabdfl> so, all of that leads me to 'meh, let the smart guys decide'
<sabdfl> and the guys who are advocates of Upstart are really smart, they are also independent - they didn't write it
<sabdfl> they just studied it, thought about it, and applied their experience
<sabdfl> next!
<ClassBot> Nova__ asked: What will be use for ubuntu web browser which we can see on ubuntu touch, Webkit Or Blink (Google Fork) ?   and also is there any hope we can see ubuntu web brwoser on desktop in 14.04 or 14.10 ?
<sabdfl> we will definitely choose Webkit or Blink, but I don't know which we will choose :)
<sabdfl> and yes, the mobile browser will be on the desktop too, but probably not as a default browser
<sabdfl> rather, as the heart of our web apps
<sabdfl> next!
<ClassBot> FlyingPig asked: Will the core apps replace their current GNOME counterparts as soon as they are convergent? (at least the filebrowser, please!)
<sabdfl> we'll choose the BEST apps for each piece
<sabdfl> it's tempting to choose your own, but generally i want the team + community to think carefully and choose wisely
<sabdfl> and collaborate where possible and welcome
<sabdfl> next!
<ClassBot> d0od asked: Back in 2011 you announced the (since oft cited) goal of having 200 million Ubuntu users by 2015. Are your expectations wrt to Ubuntu Touch uptake part of this, or do you have a separate goal for Touch?
<sabdfl> yes, that is only achievable with mobile
<sabdfl> hence the focus on the phone :)
<sabdfl> next!
<ClassBot> fr33r1d3 asked: Your opinion on Windows 8?
<sabdfl> bold choices, right vision, stumbled at the gate but the race is just beginning
<sabdfl> change is hard
<sabdfl> the vision of convergence is the right one
<sabdfl> so i respect microsoft for seeing that and focusing on that
<sabdfl> but they stumbled with the actual release
<sabdfl> i think they left their actual desktop too much in the past (Win 7.5) and the pushed their tablet too much to the foreground (tiles with a mouse)
<sabdfl> but they are smart and hungry and being an underdog is wonderfully motivating
<sabdfl> for example
<sabdfl> they are doing a very impressive job on being an open cloud
<sabdfl> azure has been transformed from PAAS into IAAS, and in many regards, damn-good-IAAS too
<sabdfl> sorry to disappoint the prejudiced :)
<sabdfl> next!
<ClassBot> NikTh asked: Is in your future plans to create an Ubuntu certification similar to Linux+ and/or LPI (available to Europe) ?
<sabdfl> this is a bit of a chicken and egg one
<sabdfl> we tried a cert program
<sabdfl> but it didn't work - companies can figure out very quickly if someone knows ubuntu
<sabdfl> so even though ubuntu has rocketed up the charts in terms of use
<sabdfl> http://w3techs.com/technologies/history_details/os-linux
<sabdfl> there isn't much demand for a certification program
<sabdfl> i'd be happy to help someone set that up if they think we just screwed up the execution of it :)
<sabdfl> next!
<ClassBot> SonikkuAmerica asked: With the advent of 14.04 convergence, will there be a service (hopefully a FOSS one) that one can connect all their devices with? (Possibly expanding Ubuntu One...?)
<sabdfl> SonikkuAmerica, Ubuntu One is the answer, i think, together with some sort of USB sync for phone-pc
<sabdfl> but i don't have much more for you, i'm afraid
<sabdfl> next!
<ClassBot> There are 10 minutes remaining in the current session.
<sabdfl> hey amber
<philipballew> alright, we have a few minutes left, so remember to ask questions while you still can!
<sabdfl> have you guys tried a recent build of Ubuntu Touch?
<sabdfl> am loving the pace of development
<ClassBot> FlyingPig asked: Are there any plans to extending/adding new features to launchpad/bazaar or are those technologies in "maintenance-only" mode?
<sabdfl> and glad to see the apps coming along
<philipballew> good build yes!
<sabdfl> FlyingPig, tools are supporting us pretty well atm, there is ongoing work but our focus now is cloud and phone so it's all hands on deck for those
<sabdfl> next!
<ClassBot> jsjgruber-l99-p asked: When in the ongoing processes will you know "Ubuntu is going to make it on the phone"?
 * sabdfl goes to phablet-flash to check out the new power management... ;)
<sabdfl> jsjgruber-l99-p, that's straightforwardly a question of market adoption
<sabdfl> we have a nice % of PC shipments, and growing
<sabdfl> can we achieve the same in the phone, in a year?
<sabdfl> i think so, based on conversations so far
<sabdfl> but we'll know for sure in 2014
<sabdfl> what is very encouraging at the moment is the interest from top tier app developers
<sabdfl> it is an easy port for them from Android / BB10
<sabdfl> and a lot of their developers use Ubuntu
<sabdfl> so... why not :)
<sabdfl> next!
<ClassBot> There are 5 minutes remaining in the current session.
<ClassBot> d0od asked: Some suggest that Touch is Canonical's 'last roll of the dice'; the last chance to try and get profitable. The cutbacks on release support cycles and axing the physical UDS seemed to reinforce this idea for some. How committed in the long-term is Canonical to making Touch a success, and supporting its other projects (cloud, desktop, etc)?
<sabdfl> perfeclty committed, d0od
<sabdfl> perfectly, even
<sabdfl> we have great design, great engineering, and are engaging with industry
<sabdfl> we could do more, but at diminishing marginal returns
<sabdfl> it is a stretch to do both
<sabdfl> i would like ubuntu to be more than just a developer desktop
<sabdfl> but we will always be that, regardless
<sabdfl> to be more, we have to lead, and that's hard
<sabdfl> nevertheless, looking around the world, i don't see others who could potentially do so, putting in nearly the same level of effort
<sabdfl> so i would very much like to see that pay off, because this might be a once in a lifetime chance to break out of the cycle of platforms controlled by giants
<sabdfl> and i think it's worth taking that gap
<sabdfl> and appreciate all the support we get from likeminded, passionate, smart people
<sabdfl> so, ubuntu is a success as a developer desktop
<sabdfl> which supports our needs on the cloud just fine
<sabdfl> going further - to lead something like a convergent client worldwide - is a project worth doing
<sabdfl> dontcha think?
<sabdfl> thank you all!
<sabdfl> thanks especially to philipballew and JoseAntonioR
<philipballew> We try our best!
<sabdfl> you make OW brilliant :)
<sabdfl> see you around
* ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to the Ubuntu Classroom - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Classroom || Support in #ubuntu || Upcoming Schedule: http://is.gd/8rtIi || Questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat || Event: Ubuntu Open Week - Current Session: Ubuntu News Team - Instructors: akgraner
<ClassBot> Logs for this session will be available at http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2013/05/22/%23ubuntu-classroom.html following the conclusion of the session.
<akgraner> Welcome to the Ubuntu Newsletter Session and thank you for joining this session or if you are hanging around after the âAsk Markâ Session thank you as well.
<akgraner> Iâll give it just a another minute...
<akgraner> Please let me know if I am going to fast or is I am boring you to tears and we'll discuss :-P
<akgraner> So what are the Objectives for this session?
<akgraner> From this session you will learn what the Ubuntu Weekly Newsletter is?  Who makes up the Ubuntu News Team as well as how you can help.
<akgraner> So what is the Ubuntu Weekly Newsletter?
<akgraner> CollectionUbuntu News from around the community and around the world to bring readers a weekly dose of Ubuntu articles.
<akgraner> I want to pause an let you think about the dedication it takes to produce this WEEKLY - so next time you read an issue take a moment to thank those who have contributed, and I hope that some of you will be adding your name to that list as well.  Remember it's a great way to get started with contribution, too.
<akgraner> Who makes up the news team?
<akgraner> The Ubuntu News Team is an all volunteer that maintains the âofficialâ news sources for Ubuntu. You can find the list of contributors to each issue in the contributors session of each newsletter.
<akgraner> Elizabeth Krumbach Joseph (pleia2) - is the current leader of this team (MANY MANY THANKS) and she is mentoring the very capable JosÃ© Antonio Rey (JoseeAntonioR) and others.
<akgraner> If I tried to list everyone I would leave people out, but pleia2 and JoseeAntonioR are the ones who publish UWN once all the news is in.
<akgraner> Of course there are others who help as well and many thanks go out to all those who help.  Speaking of helping...
<akgraner> What are the ways you can get involved and help create UWN?
<akgraner> Link Collectors
<akgraner> Summary Writers
<akgraner> Stats Collector
<akgraner> Editors
<akgraner> Releaser
<akgraner> Now lets take a look at each of these roles:
<akgraner> Link Collectors
<akgraner> Collect links and add to
<akgraner> https://docs.google.com/Doc?docid=0AdKZelXU8Y2LZGNrcHRkYmhfODlkODNxNnRnZA&hl=en
<akgraner> These can and should  be collected throughout the week.
<akgraner> Each section of the newsletter and what goes into those sections can be seen by view the raw text version on the the issue template
<akgraner> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuWeeklyNewsletter/IssueTemplate?action=raw
<akgraner> If you want to help collect links but are sure where to start looking then check out the Link suggestions page at:
<akgraner> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuWeeklyNewsletter/LinkSuggestions
<akgraner> Any questions about Link Collectors?
<akgraner> Summary Writers
<akgraner> This is where you can write summaries for the links which were collected.  Donât worry we have editors who will fix summaries as well, and the more you do the better you get at it.  Have fun!
<akgraner> Stats Collector
<akgraner> Runs a series of scripts and visits sites to collect statistics.
<akgraner> Again see raw text of IssueTemplate for section details at:
<akgraner> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuWeeklyNewsletter/IssueTemplate?action=raw
<akgraner> Editors
<akgraner> Go through newsletter to add finishing pieces and check for spelling and grammar errors.
<akgraner> Details for this process can be found at:
<akgraner> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuWeeklyNewsletter/EditingPolicies/HowToEdit Steps 7-9
<akgraner> Releaser
<akgraner> Actually releases the newsletter via wiki, email, IRC, etc
<akgraner> Details for this process can be found at:
<akgraner> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuWeeklyNewsletter/EditingPolicies/HowToEdit Steps 11-20
<akgraner> Then rotates and preps the newsletter template on wiki between releases
<akgraner> Details for this process can be found at:
<akgraner> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuWeeklyNewsletter/EditingPolicies/HowToEdit Steps 1-3 and 21-24
<akgraner> So there is the process and "jobs" that need to be done weekly by the team.
<akgraner> Any questions, comments, feedback on content etc?
<akgraner> No? Ok great.
<akgraner> Where can I find out more information about UWN?
<akgraner> Ubuntu News Homepage - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuWeeklyNewsletter
<akgraner> Information on the current issue and the work in progress can be found at:
<akgraner> Latest Issue - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuWeeklyNewsletter/Issue317
<akgraner> Upcoming Issue - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuWeeklyNewsletter/Issue318
<akgraner> Prep Doc
<akgraner> https://docs.google.com/document/d/18ZbtFHQq6uMj7iuRLd11VH8V5Uc_FA0IfgiRUcbMbQk/edit#
<akgraner> Link Suggestion Page - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuWeeklyNewsletter/LinkSuggestions
<akgraner> Style Guidelines - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuWeeklyNewsletter/StyleGuidelines
<akgraner> Archives - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuWeeklyNewsletter/Archive
<akgraner> Now that you see how easy and organized we are  I hope you're asking yourself "How can I join?"
<akgraner> The team collaborates largely on IRC in #ubuntu-news on irc.freenode.net.
<akgraner> If you'd like to be a summary writer, subscribe to ubuntu-news-team mailing list and contact the editors at editor.ubuntu.news@ubuntu.com to get your name on a list of summary writers who are emailed weekly.
<akgraner> If you'd like to be an editor, subscribe to ubuntu-news-team mailing list and contact the editors at editor.ubuntu.news@ubuntu.com to get your name on a list of editors who are emailed weekly.
<akgraner> easy peasy!
<akgraner> The workflow looks like this
<akgraner> Contributors collaborate on the Google Document to collect links from the week. Anyone may add links here, but please do not delete any.
<akgraner> On Friday and Saturday these links are reviewed and reorganized, some may be deleted if there are too many or there are content issues.
<akgraner> Over the weekend, summary writers are contacted. If you'd like to be a summary writer, subscribe to ubuntu-news-team mailing list and contact the editors at editor.ubuntu.news@ubuntu.com to get your name on a list of summary writers who are emailed weekly.
<akgraner> Sunday night and Monday morning editors are contacted to review the near-complete document. If you'd like to be an editor, subscribe to ubuntu-news-team mailing list and contact the editors at editor.ubuntu.news@ubuntu.com to get your name on a list of editors who are emailed weekly.
<akgraner> Monday morning Ubuntu Stats are added
<akgraner> Monday evening the newsletter is released.
<akgraner> The full process for publishing the Ubuntu Weekly News is defined here: UbuntuWeeklyNewsletter/EditingPolicies/HowToEdit
<akgraner> There you have all you ever thought you might want to know about UWN and how you can help :-)
<akgraner> Are there any questions?
<akgraner> Thank you again for joining this session, for your questions and I hope that we will see some new faces/IRC nicks joining us on the news team!
<ClassBot> There are 10 minutes remaining in the current session.
<ClassBot> There are 5 minutes remaining in the current session.
<ClassBot> Logs for this session will be available at http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2013/05/22/%23ubuntu-classroom.html
* ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to the Ubuntu Classroom - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Classroom || Support in #ubuntu || Upcoming Schedule: http://is.gd/8rtIi || Questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat || No Sessions Currently in Progress
#ubuntu-classroom 2013-05-23
<mikeit> hi
#ubuntu-classroom 2015-05-23
<dj_rab_> hi
