#kubuntu-council 2017-12-11
<IrcsomeBot> <tsimonq2> https://phabricator.kde.org/T7566
<valorie> added my comment
#kubuntu-council 2017-12-15
<IrcsomeBot> <Sick_Rimmit> Friends, I have family issue my mum is very poorly, I may not make Andrea Del Sarto membership meeting. Please know that I vote Yes
<IrcsomeBot> <acheronuk> @Sick_Rimmit Sorry to hear that. Not a problem
<IrcsomeBot> <Sick_Rimmit> You folks in Dev have been very busy, it's very exciting to see the momentum building
<IrcsomeBot> <Sick_Rimmit> I got an introduction to the MD of Zymplify.com I think They're Going to sponsor us with a system. Hopefully we can use it for managing our social media, and marketing.
<IrcsomeBot> <Sick_Rimmit> Been moving things forward in the Phab Wiki, sadly I have not had the time in front of my machine be to upload the Kafe video yet, hopefully get back to it next week.
<IrcsomeBot> <acheronuk> @Sick_Rimmit, Right. Clive asked me the other day why that was not up.
<IrcsomeBot> <Sick_Rimmit> I had been planning to do little bit of Editing
<IrcsomeBot> <acheronuk> LOL. Would be a good idea!
<IrcsomeBot> <Sick_Rimmit> I have kdenlive running a treat on 17.10
<IrcsomeBot> <Sick_Rimmit> I hope to get it done next week
<IrcsomeBot> <acheronuk> @Sick_Rimmit, Great. I deliberately cherry picked uploading the latest (at the time) kdenlive 17.08 for artful, instead of 17.04 like the rest of the apps, as there were important changes and fixes.
<IrcsomeBot> <Sick_Rimmit> Well I made a 2 hour DVD with it for my friends Xmas present last week, and it worked so great
<IrcsomeBot> <acheronuk> :)
<IrcsomeBot> <Sick_Rimmit> I have old Samsung R710 core duo, 64bit 3gd Ram, 24gd swap on ssd
<IrcsomeBot> <Sick_Rimmit> World good
<IrcsomeBot> <Sick_Rimmit> Right got to go to hospital, CA Ch you later
<wxl> did kubuntu put up any GCI tasks or is KDE doing it this year?
<valorie> @Sick_Rimmit {{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{hugs}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}
<valorie> wxl: no, we're not participating (KDE)
<valorie> I think ubuntu is, but have no clue how we'd participate -- tsimonq2 might know?
<wxl> no kubuntu tasks? :(
<valorie> KDE is not doing GCi
<valorie> I wasn't willing to lead, and nobody else stepped up
<valorie> so I said we're not doing it, and many would-me mentors thanked me
<valorie> everyone is just tired this year I guess
<valorie> and lots of other stuff going on
<wxl> ok well if anyone wants to propose tasks, i'd be happy to get them up there and mentor for them
<valorie> so if you are interested in doing that, I would look for what Ubuntu is doing
<valorie> as I recall, they were the org with the most tasks and students last year
<IrcsomeBot> <Sick_Rimmit> Hello any KC here that can help with membership application in #kubuntu
<wxl> in #kubuntu? O_O
<IrcsomeBot> <Sick_Rimmit> Yes Andrea Del Sarto
<wxl> those normally happen in a support channel?
<IrcsomeBot> <Sick_Rimmit> Sorry that is what I kesnt
<IrcsomeBot> <Sick_Rimmit> Meant
<IrcsomeBot> <Sick_Rimmit> I'm on my phone
<wxl> that IS or isn't what you meant? hahahaha
<IrcsomeBot> <Sick_Rimmit> Fat fingers
<wxl> apparently so
 * wxl hands @Sick_Rimmit a bluetooth keyboard
<IrcsomeBot> <Sick_Rimmit> He he
<wxl> i did see an email from valorie in reply
<IrcsomeBot> <Sick_Rimmit> Thanks
<wxl> ahoneybun: was about a bit ago
<IrcsomeBot> <Sick_Rimmit> I will check email
<ahoneybun> wxl: what?
<wxl> ahoneybun: @Sick_Rimmit is looking for councillors to discuss Andrea's app
<IrcsomeBot> <ahoneybun> what's up @Sick_Rimmit
<valorie> where is Andrea?
<wxl> yeah that's the question i had XD
<wxl> maybe on Telegram?
<IrcsomeBot> <Sick_Rimmit> Kubuntu support we have member application
<valorie> I'm worried about the passive nature of the membership ask here
<valorie> we like people to set up the meeting on their own initiative
<valorie> meeting should be in -devel
<IrcsomeBot> <Sick_Rimmit> He has set this up by himself with encourage meant from me
<valorie> ok
<IrcsomeBot> <Sick_Rimmit> Can we at least go discuss with him
<valorie> but some interaction is missing
<valorie> go where?
<IrcsomeBot> <Sick_Rimmit> He is waiting
<valorie> where?
<wxl> "where" are you "going" to?
<IrcsomeBot> <Sick_Rimmit> Kubuntu support on IRC
<valorie> no, not in support
<valorie> that is not the channel
<wxl> that seems like a really weird place to have a membership meeting as aforementioned
<valorie> in kubuntu-devel
<IrcsomeBot> <Sick_Rimmit> Ok devel
<IrcsomeBot> <Sick_Rimmit> I'm hanging by Ã  thread here guys, 300 mike's from home on a phonev trying to coordinate in between hospital visits
<IrcsomeBot> <Sick_Rimmit> Help me out will you
<valorie> {{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{hugs}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}} for you and your mum, @sick_rimmit
<IrcsomeBot> <Sick_Rimmit> â¤ï¸ thanks v Valorie
<valorie> <3
<wxl> an aside: kde contributions don't count as contributions for kubuntu? i mean if someone is using kubuntu and they see something to fix..
<valorie> well, it depends
<valorie> so if you file the bug in LP *and* bko, and test the fixes, etc.
<valorie> it counts for both
<wxl> sure
<valorie> say if you write something for KDE, and then spread it via Kubuntu as well
<valorie> it counts here
<wxl> yeah well did any of his artwork get here somehow? did he tell anyone about it? maybe there's a kubuntu-artwork mailing list i don't know about?
<valorie> but just upstream countributions on their own, not so much
<valorie> everything should be in kubuntu-devel
<valorie> so art contributions ARE valuable, but if nobody tells us about them, we only find out by chance
<wxl> right
<valorie> now on our website, we noticed!
<wxl> which might be the disconnect with the kubuntu community
<valorie> yeah
<valorie> we need lots of involvement from lots of people
<valorie> so nobody is doing a big job all by themselves
<valorie> like acheronuk is doing right now
<valorie> sorry @Sick_Rimmit
<valorie> I think he was just not quite ready
<valorie> good meeting anyway
<valorie> thanks for your help, wxl
<wxl> yeah no problem
<wxl> those are always hard
<valorie> well, it happens sometimes
<valorie> if he gets more personally involved, I'd love to vote +1
<wxl> i appreciate @Sick_Rimmit's encouragement, but i think a little additional mentoring as far as how to create a *good* application might have gone a much longer way
<valorie> yes, he didn't seem to have checked out other wiki pages, or other meetings
<valorie> a prepared person makes for a really great meeting
<wxl> yeah i know. this is a thing one learns when mentoring people... they don't always get it. you have to manage expectatiosn
<valorie> well, I got the feeling right at first that he completely didn't understand what Membership is about
<valorie> and I loved that he *asked*
<wxl> well, it seemed like he was encouraged in the direction of membership without clear guidance as to what that meant or why it's good or bad or how to do it
<wxl> i mean i think that encouragement is great and i don't want to discount it at all
<wxl> it's just that a meeting like that can be very deflating to the applicant :(
<valorie> I wanted to head that off
<valorie> thanks for helping
<wxl> happy to help :)
#kubuntu-council 2017-12-16
<IrcsomeBot> <tsimonq2> Sorry about your mom @Sick_Rimmit :(
<IrcsomeBot> <tsimonq2> Yeah, the fact that I hadn't heard of Andrea before you mentioned him made me question why he was going for membership...
<IrcsomeBot> <tsimonq2> I know genii's ready. He's a cool guy. (And he totally doesn't bribe everyone with coffee. ð)
<valorie> rofl
<valorie> I know what you mean
<IrcsomeBot> <Sick_Rimmit> Well given that Andres was the podcast producer on the audio MP3 shows, designed all the Wily werewolf release artwork, including konwi mascot and website banners, suggests we have a communication coordination problem.
<IrcsomeBot> <Sick_Rimmit> Also  hlighted is the documentation, for membership and probably mentoring.
<IrcsomeBot> <Sick_Rimmit> I was already thinking that growing our membership was very hands on, I think a membership journey plan need to be constructed, and that then needs to be put on the website
<IrcsomeBot> <acheronuk> (Photo, 1280x960) https://irc-attachments.kde.org/A0USMU4K/file_3826.jpg
<IrcsomeBot> <acheronuk> Seems to be fitting in :)
<IrcsomeBot> <tsimonq2> @Sick_Rimmit, "suggests we have a communication coordination problem" - how can he know what we're working on if he *just* joined our communication channels?
<IrcsomeBot> <tsimonq2> Additionally, if I was assessing his application for Ubuntu Membership, I would point out that these contributions were done nearly two years ago and him wanting to get involved again shouldn't really justify membership ;)
<IrcsomeBot> <Sick_Rimmit> Good stuff, sounds like an excellently community growth strategy.
<IrcsomeBot> <tsimonq2> @Sick_Rimmit, In my honest opinion, membership isn't something one should strive towards, it should be an added benefit to recognize that you have been an active contributor and have made significant and sustained contributions to the Kubuntu project.
<IrcsomeBot> <Sick_Rimmit> Yeah  I already figured out you brief viewed it as a badge of honour.
<IrcsomeBot> <tsimonq2> @Sick_Rimmit, That's... The definition of membership...?
<IrcsomeBot> <tsimonq2> Well, the way I described it. (Not sure if your interpretation is different.)
<IrcsomeBot> <tsimonq2> It's not a badge of honor, it's recognition that you're a member of the project.
<IrcsomeBot> <tsimonq2> And honestly a few good contributions, no matter how decent they were, don't justify membership in my opinion if they haven't been significant and *sustained*
<IrcsomeBot> <tsimonq2> s/don't/doesn't/
<IrcsomeBot> <tsimonq2> Not to say I have anything against the guy, but that's what membership means. I can appreciate the push towards it, but the fact that I've not even heard the name before (and I'm not the only one who hasn't) makes me wonder if the contributions have been significant and sustained.
<IrcsomeBot> <tsimonq2> (and I would consider myself a very active Kubuntu Member)
<IrcsomeBot> <tsimonq2> I would apply the same policy for anyone with a similar application.
<clivejo_> Just popped in to say that I am quite angry and upset about how some of you responded to the membership request from Andre
<clivejo_> In reply to <tsimonq2> Additionally, if I was assessing his application for Ubuntu Membership, I would point out that these contributions were done nearly two years ago and him wanting to get involved again shouldn't really justify membership ;)
<clivejo_> what justifies Kubuntu membership?
<clivejo_> my main reason for applying was to proudly hold a kubuntu.org email address and because I was asked to
<clivejo_> and quite frankly, today I am ashamed to be associated to it
<IrcsomeBot> <tsimonq2> @clivejo_, Significant and Sustained contributions to Kubuntu.
<clivejo_> well Andre has been contributing long before you even got involved with Ubuntu
<IrcsomeBot> <tsimonq2> Has he been contributing recently?
<clivejo_> he has been helping Rick with the Podcast
<clivejo_> and was interested in helping on a marketing team
<IrcsomeBot> <tsimonq2> Why hasn't his name been brought up at all before this then?
<IrcsomeBot> <tsimonq2> "interested in" =/ significant and sustained contributions
<clivejo_> go back on the Podcast logs
<clivejo_> his name pops up quite a lot
<clivejo_> he doesn't like IRC or emails
<IrcsomeBot> <tsimonq2> The podcast hasn't ran recently, it's just been the Kafe, no?
<clivejo_> so is that a requirement for membership?
<clivejo_> I haven't contributed in a month now
<IrcsomeBot> <tsimonq2> That's a requirement to get it, not to keep it
<valorie> hmmm, do we need to fight?
<valorie> I think perhaps we need to clarify what membership means
<IrcsomeBot> <tsimonq2> ...we're fighting?
<valorie> just read up
<IrcsomeBot> <tsimonq2> Membership has already been clarified...
<valorie> ok
<IrcsomeBot> <tsimonq2> It's Significant and Sustained contributions to Kubuntu
<valorie> to me, it is a recognition that one has been contributing and wants to officially say I'm proud to be a contributor
<clivejo_> valorie: +1
<IrcsomeBot> <tsimonq2> Right, that's what I mean. That's what it is.
<valorie> to clarify what I said yesterday, I think Andre has been contributing, but his communication to the wider community needs to improve
<IrcsomeBot> <tsimonq2> It's recognition of being a project member
<valorie> Telegram will help him with IRC
<IrcsomeBot> <tsimonq2> @valorie, How? I still don't get it.
<IrcsomeBot> <tsimonq2> @valorie, Right
<valorie> but everybody has to use the ML
<valorie> it's basic
<valorie> tsimonq2: the podcast, and artwork
<valorie> the problem was the communication -- many of us weren't aware of his contributions
<clivejo_> reading the conversation yesterday felt extremely unfriendly and unKubuntu
<valorie> :(
<valorie> can you point out anything that felt unfriendly?
<clivejo_> and the conversation here following it
<clivejo_> like who is he
<valorie> well, this was my first interaction with him
<valorie> ever
<valorie> so, there has been very little of that casual interaction
<valorie> that's a first
<IrcsomeBot> <tsimonq2> This is very much compatible with what I'm saying. Membership should be seeked iff he's an active, known member of the project.
<IrcsomeBot> <tsimonq2> Fwd from valorie: <valorie> to me, it is a recognition that one has been contributing and wants to officially say I'm proud to be a contributor
<IrcsomeBot> <tsimonq2> And "known" isn't much
<IrcsomeBot> <tsimonq2> Just come say hi :)
<IrcsomeBot> <tsimonq2> From what I can tell, Rick portrayed Membership as a prerequisite contributing when it's in fact the opposite.
<IrcsomeBot> <tsimonq2> Fwd from Andredelsa: What are the benefits of this membership and.. it's necessary to help you in marketing? Just for ask :)
<valorie> clivejo_: I tried really hard to make the meeting positive, because it was a bit of a (&*&% with Rick having to mostly bow out
<valorie> but believe me, criticism is welcome
<IrcsomeBot> <tsimonq2> Exactly this, wxl echos my thoughts
<IrcsomeBot> <tsimonq2> Fwd from wxl: <wxl> well i don't know if anything's any different for kubuntu than it is for ubuntu, but speaking as a member of the ubuntu membership board, we usually judge applications based on two factors: consistent and significant contributions
<IrcsomeBot> <tsimonq2> Fwd from wxl: <wxl> i think that artwork is a significant contribution
<IrcsomeBot> <tsimonq2> Fwd from wxl: <wxl> i'm not so sure about consistent.....
<IrcsomeBot> <tsimonq2> Fwd from wxl: <wxl> at least i don't see it
<IrcsomeBot> <tsimonq2> Fwd from wxl: <wxl> maybe your application doesn't adequately detail all the things you have done?
<clivejo_> tsimonq2: I don't need it forwarded I read it after being messaged by someone who was equally as disgusted
<valorie> this person who was disgusted should have chimed in?
<clivejo_> from my POV Rick was handholding him for sure
<clivejo_> but most of us have done this
<valorie> honestly, we needed more KC and Kubuntu Members at that meeting
<valorie> sec
<IrcsomeBot> <tsimonq2> I think, after reading it, Clive's assessment of it might not be correct (imo) because I don't think it's bad for us to give constructive criticism on a membership application which isn't ready. I think wxl and Valorie did that well. I just think some people who might have personal bias in favor of him (which this sort of thing shouldn't have) might be disappointed he didn't get it. That's my 2Â¢
<clivejo_> yes, I have personal bias on bring people on board who will benefit the project
<IrcsomeBot> <tsimonq2> I don't see anything in here that could qualify as derogatory or offensive. I just think people aren't happy with the membership results...
<valorie> well, I want him to be a Member
<clivejo_> I know for a fact that Andre is a good hard working contributor based on seeing him over the years
<IrcsomeBot> <tsimonq2> @clivejo_, That's different than objective evaluation of a membership application
<IrcsomeBot> <tsimonq2> @clivejo_, And I'm not doubting that, but he didn't make it clear in his application
<valorie> and I'll be happy to give him a +1 when he's a bit more engaged with the wider team
<IrcsomeBot> <tsimonq2> Fwd from tsimonq2: From what I can tell, Rick portrayed Membership as a prerequisite contributing when it's in fact the opposite.
<clivejo_> but I also believe that senior members here should be guiding new members into the fold
<IrcsomeBot> <tsimonq2> @valorie, Agreed
<IrcsomeBot> <tsimonq2> @clivejo_, Also agreed
<valorie> clivejo_: as I said, this is the first time I've talked with him
<valorie> I'm in the podcast channel, btw
<IrcsomeBot> <tsimonq2> Rejecting a membership application shouldn't be portrayed as rejection of contributions but rather doubt that he is fit for the thing he's applying for.
<valorie> we didn't reject it
<valorie> we didn't have a quorum
<valorie> I don't doubt he's fit
<IrcsomeBot> <tsimonq2> Well, maybe rejection is a strong word, but you get what I mean
<clivejo_> Rick has had personal issues to deal with
<valorie> but he needs integration into the wider team
<valorie> he did
<valorie> it was very unfortunate
<clivejo_> someone else should have took over and guided him
<valorie> and Rick did what was righg
<valorie> right
<valorie> clivejo_: that's what I was trying to do
<IrcsomeBot> <tsimonq2> @valorie, Right, but I'm thinking that objective evaluation of the application would result in denial of the application. Prove me wrong, please.
<valorie> well, none of us are objective
<IrcsomeBot> <tsimonq2> Right, but we should review it objectively.
<valorie> since there was not a quorum, it can be brought to the ML
<IrcsomeBot> <tsimonq2> I'm particularly interested to hear wxl's thoughts on this matter, fwiw.
<valorie> and the vote can take place on the ML
<IrcsomeBot> <tsimonq2> Alright, I'm looking forward to it.
<clivejo_> it pains me to say it but Kubuntu now is not the Kubuntu I joined
<valorie> please give me more specific criticism clivejo_
<clivejo_> the sense of team spirit
<valorie> well, I did the best I could, in the midst of another meeting
<valorie> there was no doodle
<valorie> just a last-minute announcement
<valorie> honestly, I've not seen such a casual application before
<valorie> I was taken aback by that, but did the best I could
<valorie> welcomed wxl's help
<clivejo_> from my POV it would have been better to explain that there wasn't enough people there to meet quorem
<valorie> which I did
<clivejo_> as english is not his first language a simpler explanation should have been given
<valorie> there were lots of mixed communications, starting with sending Andre to the wrong channel
<IrcsomeBot> <tsimonq2> @clivejo_, I disagree on your team spirit point. I think that this was handled how it should have been.
<clivejo_> someone should have made a point of helping him get his wiki page up to standard
<IrcsomeBot> <Sick_Rimmit> @valorie, Yes that was a doodle, 5 folks respond nded
<valorie> imo if anything could go wrong, it did
<valorie> oh
<valorie> :(
<IrcsomeBot> <Sick_Rimmit> It was posted to users and devel
<valorie> that is my bad that I missed that
<valorie> :(
<valorie> my apology
<valorie> I usually see wiki pages in advance, and give some help with it
<valorie> didn't happen this time
<clivejo_> tsimonq2: well yet again we are on polar opposite POV
<IrcsomeBot> <Sick_Rimmit> Yes I helped Andra prep his stuff
<IrcsomeBot> <tsimonq2> @clivejo_, Indeed.
<clivejo_> but my appeal is to the Kubuntu Council
<IrcsomeBot> <Sick_Rimmit> I also don't agree with you on this matter Simon
<IrcsomeBot> <tsimonq2> @clivejo_, So is mine.
<valorie> clivejo_: yeah
<IrcsomeBot> <tsimonq2> @Sick_Rimmit, How so?
<clivejo_> that is my honest opinion and feelings on what happened yesterday
<IrcsomeBot> <Sick_Rimmit> I don't agree on you evaluation of what membership means and represents
<IrcsomeBot> <Sick_Rimmit> Sorry guys I have to leave this for now, please please don't fall out about it
<IrcsomeBot> <Sick_Rimmit> It's good to have different pov
<clivejo_> Kubuntu is "friendly computing", the KC is "The Friendly Council"
<clivejo_> I did not ask or initial want to be a member
<IrcsomeBot> <tsimonq2> @Sick_Rimmit, Note that I'm stating my opinion as a member of the Ubuntu Membership Board, who delegates Kubuntu Membership abilities to the KC, and I think that his application for *Ubuntu* Membership indirectly should not be approved (as imho he isn't ready yet), but I don't speak for the full board.
<valorie> yes, I would have welcomed more friends there
<IrcsomeBot> <tsimonq2> @valorie, Right
<IrcsomeBot> <tsimonq2> @clivejo_, Friendly sometimes isn't compatible with keeping consistent rules.
<clivejo_> I was guided by friendly people and felt part of something important
<valorie> anyway, I think what he needs is more communication, and I think that will happen soon
<valorie> know that he's plugged in via Telegram
<valorie> once he starts using the ML even minimally, goal achieved
<IrcsomeBot> <tsimonq2> @valorie, Right
<valorie> lots of us don't like MLs, lol
<valorie> I don
<valorie> t
<valorie> but it's a tool, like everything else
<IrcsomeBot> <tsimonq2> Right
<clivejo_> tsimonq2: the Kubuntu Council was in existence before there was even talk about a Ubuntu Membership Board
<IrcsomeBot> <tsimonq2> @clivejo_, Before the UMB existed, the CC delegated that to the KC, and now delegates it to the UMB. And wxl seems to share my opinion, and is on both.
<valorie> child o' Jon, for sure
<clivejo_> well good for you and wxl
<valorie> um, what does all this have to do with anything?
<valorie> we had a partial failure of a meeting
<valorie> and I hope we'll do better next time
<clivejo_> Dear wxl and tsimonq2, I hereby resign my membership
<IrcsomeBot> <tsimonq2> @clivejo_, Ubuntu or Kubuntu Membership?
<clivejo_> Dear KCC, I hope you will listen to my points of view
<IrcsomeBot> <tsimonq2> Because you can't do one without the other.
<clivejo_> tsimonq2: thankyou for pointing that out
<valorie> oh clivejo_, I'm very sorry to hear you say that
<valorie> :(
<valorie> breaks my heart, really
<IrcsomeBot> <tsimonq2> Agreed, but it's his choice...
<clivejo_> breaks mine too, I've invested a lot of time and energy
<IrcsomeBot> <tsimonq2> @clivejo_, I still don't get why you've left.
<valorie> you don't have to do this
<IrcsomeBot> <tsimonq2> @valorie, Right
<clivejo_> its done
<IrcsomeBot> <tsimonq2> We'd appreciate it if you'd stay...
<IrcsomeBot> <tsimonq2> :(
<valorie> well, this sucks
<valorie> I need to get ready to go - have a volunteer slot at the library for my genealogy society
<IrcsomeBot> <tsimonq2> Have fun!
#kubuntu-council 2017-12-17
<IrcsomeBot> <acheronuk> That is sad to hear about clive. :(
<IrcsomeBot> <acheronuk> I guess he has issues, and I can even slightly understand some, but would have to disagree. Just walking out and resigning team memberships like that bemuses me though.
<wxl> i think it's just a pile of frustration of different things, but yes, probably not consitent with "stepping down considerately" :/
<IrcsomeBot> <Sick_Rimmit> Good morning friends
<IrcsomeBot> <Sick_Rimmit> Can anyone point me at some definitive documentation on what constitutes kubuntu membership, and why and on what circumstances someone should apply.
<IrcsomeBot> <Sick_Rimmit> O have a sense that I have been a little too do-ocratic
<IrcsomeBot> <Sick_Rimmit> But also I feel that I don't quite understand clearly what kubuntu membership represents
<IrcsomeBot> <acheronuk> https://community.kde.org/Kubuntu/Policies#.7Ekubuntu-members
<IrcsomeBot> <Sick_Rimmit> Thanks Rik
<IrcsomeBot> <Sick_Rimmit> Ah ha, now that is a great doc, and indeed it appears I am wrong in my interpretation of membership
<IrcsomeBot> <Sick_Rimmit> However, I still feel that Andrea has provide a sustained contribution. No matter he can run his application again in due course
<IrcsomeBot> <Sick_Rimmit> In other thoughts, would it make sense for all of that document to be on the website ?
<IrcsomeBot> <acheronuk> There is some 'elastisity' to that definition IMO. The ubuntu one is a bit more general
<IrcsomeBot> <acheronuk> "We look for sustained and significant contributions. While there is no precise period that we look for, it is rare for applications to be accepted from people contributing for less than 6 months. If you are unsure if your contributions constitute as sustained and significant, ask your team mates and other Ubuntu members. Maybe they can even add some kind of endorsement to your application. "
<IrcsomeBot> <acheronuk> IMO if Andrea makes soem recent contributions for a shortish period, then should be ok
<IrcsomeBot> <Sick_Rimmit> Actually I think that might be better
<IrcsomeBot> <Sick_Rimmit> Yes
<IrcsomeBot> <Sick_Rimmit> The plan is for him to take on the role b of marketing manager
<IrcsomeBot> <Sick_Rimmit> I am still working on role definitions in the Phab Wiki
<IrcsomeBot> <acheronuk> good way to earn his pips then
<IrcsomeBot> <Sick_Rimmit> But Andrea is quite energised
<IrcsomeBot> <Sick_Rimmit> I don't think it knocked him back too much
<IrcsomeBot> <Sick_Rimmit> I have discussed it with him briefly
<IrcsomeBot> <Sick_Rimmit> I think he is OK
<IrcsomeBot> <Sick_Rimmit> I feel very sad that clivejo has left, although I understand this has been developing for a while
<IrcsomeBot> <acheronuk> he liked it when we were the 'Jon and harald show'. I guess this was coming
<IrcsomeBot> <Sick_Rimmit> Maybe he will move over to the Neon team, still making contribution
<IrcsomeBot> <Sick_Rimmit> I am sure he will keep doing the magic some where
<IrcsomeBot> <tsimonq2> @Sick_Rimmit, I'm glad, the intention was not to hurt him in any way but to tell him where he needs to get to ;)
<IrcsomeBot> <tsimonq2> Also, one more point that I'd like to make, while Ubuntu Membership is not what he seeks, the same guidelines should generally apply...
<IrcsomeBot> <tsimonq2> I had a conversation with one of the original Kubuntu people and what I got out of it was that we're on the same page about what Membership means.
<clivejo_> wxl: can I have some guidance on why you think I have not been consitent with "stepping down considerately"?
<clivejo_> and no "he liked it when we were the 'Jon and harald show' "
<clivejo_> I liked it when the team worked together to solve problems
<clivejo_> not taking Qt development to a private telegram channel
<clivejo_> and trying to take sddm and calamares upstream to Debian so that Kubuntu Developers can't work on it
<tsimonq2> clivejo_: It was *not* a private Telegram channel, I put the link in #kubuntu-devel, but now that Qt is no longer a Kubuntu-specific thing, and I'm working on Qt packaging as part of both Lubuntu and Kubuntu, there was no need to do it in #kubuntu-devel.
<clivejo_> who decided that Qt is no longer a Kubuntu-specific thing?
<tsimonq2> But I'm sorry you didn't see the link and the notices we had before *you* broke *your* system by not waiting for a KCI nightly before updating your system.
<tsimonq2> As people who work on Qt packaging, acheronuk, myself, mitya57, and some UBPorts folks decided to all work together on it.
<tsimonq2> And if anything, you are *more* than welcome to propose *any* patches upstream in Debian to sddm and calamares and we will *happily* accept them but I am sick and tired of getting harumphed at by Ubuntu Archive Admins and the Ubuntu Release Team because we can't freaking work with Debian.
<tsimonq2> If anything, I discussed *both* of these before I did them.
<tsimonq2> Where were you?
<clivejo_> so as a consumer of Qt packages, that group of people didn't think that a quick email to kubuntu-devel woulld have been a considerate thing to do?
<clivejo_> can you show me a log of where you discussed both of these things?
<tsimonq2> It shouldn't have been a problem to update Qt packages in the *pre-alpha* development release after *all* the appropriate no-change rebuilds were done and *all* the relevant flavors were tested, and even then, the emails were on bionic-changes and I did say something in #kubuntu-devel. The email to kubuntu-devel would have been redundant.
<tsimonq2> You can find them on irclogs.ubuntu.com as far as I'm concerned, clivejo_
<clivejo_> in which channel?
<tsimonq2> #kubuntu-devel and maybe here too.
<tsimonq2> Also it took up like a whole day's conversation in #ubuntu-release.
<tsimonq2> You would have seen it if you were paying attention to any one of the development channels we regularly talk in, is my point
<clivejo_> well I can't see it in my logs
<clivejo_> which is why I asked you to point me to the public logs
<tsimonq2> They're there. irclogs.ubuntu.com. I have things to work on and can't be bothered to find logs of a discussion we had a month ago about a Qt that's already landed and discussion that was in multiple channels.
<tsimonq2> And anyways, if you have the unstable KCI PPA enabled, the *least* you could do is check the packages being installed/uninstalled on every system update.
<tsimonq2> So, I don't know what to say...
<clivejo_> fine, but from POV as a previous Kubuntu Development I think we should have been involved in any decisions relating to Qt
<tsimonq2> The active Kubuntu Developers have been. I invited you to the channel and you declined. That's on you.
<clivejo_> you invited me AFTER the fact
<tsimonq2> I didn't.
<clivejo_> you did
<tsimonq2> I specifically invited you *before* we landed it.
<clivejo_> when and where did this invite happen?
<tsimonq2> #kubuntu-devel iirc
<tsimonq2> irclogs.ubuntu.com
<clivejo_> you keep stating this, I have searched the logs and can't find this invite
<tsimonq2> That makes me wonder, because I *did* say something.
<clivejo_> https://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2017/11/22/%23kubuntu-devel.html
<clivejo_> the first mention of a Telegram group that I can find
<tsimonq2> hmph, I could have sworn I linked you before that...
<clivejo_> and please note you pinged me and told me Qt 5.9.2 had migrated
<tsimonq2> It wasn't *just* me in this channel, acheronuk was there too. So I *didn't* do this by myself, either way...
<clivejo_> but it was you and wxl made such a huge deal about santa learning how jenkin works on his own hardware
<clivejo_> about the importance of the ML
<clivejo_> can you not see how hypocritical that is?
<tsimonq2> The difference between that and this is that Santa didn't involve *anyone* else. He didn't have public PPAs, public uploads, public discussion. He did that by himself. And by the time everyone was involved that was, it was probably redundant to send an email to kubuntu-devel.
<clivejo_> the fact that "now that Qt is no longer a Kubuntu-specific thing" is of huge importance to the Kubuntu project
<clivejo_> it is the foundation of the project
<tsimonq2> But it's no longer unique to Kubuntu. The main discussion *shouldn't* happen in the Kubuntu channels.
<clivejo_> where was this discussion made?
<tsimonq2> In a central Telegram channel.
<tsimonq2> And in #ubuntu-release.
<tsimonq2> And a little in #ubuntu-devel iirc.
<clivejo_> Qt has historically been under the Kubuntu Devel umbrella and why it is in Kubuntu packageset
<tsimonq2> And?
<clivejo_> then Kubuntu should be involved in any discussion on that changing
<tsimonq2> Kubuntu was involved.
<tsimonq2> Kubuntu Developers were involved.
<tsimonq2> Rik was involved, I was involved.
<clivejo_> well that is one Kubuntu Devel
<clivejo_> there are others
<valorie> imo Qt has been beyond our control since Ubuntu began using Qt for Unity
<valorie> we had to wait for updates longer than we wanted, etc.
<tsimonq2> valorie: And now that isn't the case.
<valorie> and we didn't have the manpower to take it back
<tsimonq2> (the slow part)
<valorie> right
<clivejo_> valorie: quite true, but we had feedback on what was happening in kubuntu-devel
<valorie> true
<valorie> lots of grumbling
<tsimonq2> clivejo_: It's still broken?
<tsimonq2> I think not.
<clivejo_> and we got to test it in KCI to see if there was any issues
<clivejo_> I've no idea
<clivejo_> I'm on Qt 5.9.3
<tsimonq2> So you've added the CI Train PPA for Qt 5.9.3?
<clivejo_> no
<clivejo_> anyway, just going round in cricles
<clivejo_> I would like to know why you think I have not Stepped down appropriately
<clivejo_> so I can address it
<tsimonq2> clivejo_: I think it's hypocritical that you're criticizing me for not using the mailing list even though it's redundant yet you didn't say you were leaving on the mailing list.
<clivejo_> the only issue I could identify was access to the Linode server of which Phil, Aaron and I had access
<clivejo_> tsimonq2: I officially stepped down last year
<tsimonq2> Oh?
<tsimonq2> Did you send something to the mailing list?
<clivejo_> all of my contributions have been behind the scenes on KCI
<tsimonq2> But did you send something to the mailing list?
<clivejo_> tsimonq2: yes, on both -devel and -council
<tsimonq2> I can't find it, where is it?
<clivejo_> you are being petty now
<tsimonq2> Am I/
<tsimonq2> Just giving you a taste of your own medicine, clivejo_.
<clivejo_> it was discussed at length last year after my brother was almost killed
<clivejo_> since then acheronuk has been doing the bulk of the work
<clivejo_> I have also been pushing for the appointment of a full time release manager to work on the project
<tsimonq2> How would that happen?
<clivejo_> how would what happen?
<tsimonq2> clivejo_> I have also been pushing for the appointment of a full time release manager to work on the project
<clivejo_> I don't know
<clivejo_> my idea was a paid role from Kubuntu funds
<tsimonq2> If you haven't figured that out, then what's your case for pushing it?
<tsimonq2> oh
<tsimonq2> hm
<tsimonq2> maybe
<clivejo_> but that idea is not supported by the KC
<tsimonq2> This is the first I'm hearing of that idea.
<clivejo_> the case is that it is NOT fair relying on the contributions of one person
<clivejo_> and not having any backup or support
<tsimonq2> Agreed, we should have someone be paid to work on Kubuntu
<clivejo_> well it is no secret
<clivejo_> tsimonq2: it is not for you or i to agree to
<clivejo_> the KC control those funds
<valorie> I'm not against the use of funds, but it would need a plan
<valorie> and a funding model
<clivejo_> but again we are drifting from the point
<valorie> we have funds, would be good to spend them on something for Kubuntu
<valorie> but I have a birthday party to prepare for, so going afk
<clivejo_> I am NOT happy with being accused of not stepping down considerably
<clivejo_> what are the issues I need to address?
<tsimonq2> I, for one, assumed you were back, and that you just left suddenly.
<tsimonq2> But wxl made that claim, not I, iirc.
<clivejo_> I left kubuntu-devel because there was no reason for me to have it
<tsimonq2> Why?
<tsimonq2> (Why do you say that?)
<clivejo_> because I'm not a Kubuntu Developer
<tsimonq2> When did that change?
<clivejo_> I told you when it changed in -devel channel
<tsimonq2> But did you send something to the mailing list?
<clivejo_> <CliffordTheBigRedDoggie> I'm moving to GTK
<tsimonq2> I thought you were joking?
<clivejo_> why do I need to send something to the ML
<tsimonq2> Because you *always* need to send something to the ML, *riiiiiiiiiight*?
<clivejo_> no
<clivejo_> your funny
<clivejo_> https://ubuntu-dev.alioth.debian.org/cgi-bin/ubuntu-sponsorships.cgi?render=html&sponsor=Clive+Johnston&sponsoree_search=name
<clivejo_> no uploads since I stepped down
<clivejo_> I was happy enough doing my own thing with KCI
<clivejo_> no, I wasn't joking. I moved to PureOS
<tsimonq2> Why?
<clivejo_> because my Kubuntu install was broken
<tsimonq2> Why?
<clivejo_> because the update to Qt broke it
<tsimonq2> And why didn't you check the packages that would be uninstalled before doing the upgrade? (Because I assumed you have the KCI Unstable PPA enabled, no?)
<clivejo_> I only enable KCI when I believe it to be stable
<clivejo_> this update was from the archive
<tsimonq2> Did you check if it uninstalled packages?
<clivejo_> yes
<tsimonq2> And did it?
<clivejo_> no
<clivejo_> it was broken
<tsimonq2> What broke?
<clivejo_> I don't know
<tsimonq2> And did you send something to the mailing list?
<clivejo_> you are just winding me up now
<tsimonq2> But did you?
<clivejo_> you know I didn't
<tsimonq2> Why didn't you?
<clivejo_> because it is +1 bionic, things break
<tsimonq2> Then why didn't you cope with it?
<clivejo_> I have no way to grab the packages I needed to downgrade
<tsimonq2> Then how did you install PureOS?
<clivejo_> and I had a PureOS iso burnt to DVD
<tsimonq2> Ok, then why didn't you use that to reinstall?
<clivejo_> installed it from DVD
<clivejo_> I did reinstall it
<clivejo_> I was on PureOS for almost two weeks
<tsimonq2> Reinstall Kubuntu>
<clivejo_> I didn't want to
<tsimonq2> Why not?
<clivejo_> because it involved downloading an iso and reconfiguring
<tsimonq2> No it doesn't
<tsimonq2> https://help.ubuntu.com/lts/installation-guide/amd64/apds04.html
<clivejo_> to be back in the same position as I was before
<tsimonq2> You obviously had some old KCI packages installed
<tsimonq2> acheronuk's install went fine
<clivejo_> fair enough
<tsimonq2> So you could have reinstalled and it would have most likely been fine.
<tsimonq2> But you didn't.
<tsimonq2> That's on you.
<clivejo_> I didn't reinstall Kubuntu because I don't want to use it any more
<tsimonq2> Why not?
<clivejo_> because it is a decision I have taken
<tsimonq2> Do you no longer have interest in Kubuntu?
<clivejo_> I no longer feel part of the team
<tsimonq2> Then why are you here?
<tsimonq2> It takes two to tango. :P
<clivejo_> because I want to know the outstanding issues
<tsimonq2> But I thought you didn't feel like part of the team any more?
<tsimonq2> We'd be happy to have you
<clivejo_> it feels like a personal attack
<tsimonq2> What does?
<clivejo_> that I have just felt issues behind
<clivejo_> the comments made earlier today
<tsimonq2> Couldn't you solve the issues privately with the people who said those things?
<tsimonq2> And if not, why didn't you send it to the ML?
<clivejo_> well I did think it was dealt with privately
<clivejo_> but obviously not
<tsimonq2> So did you send something to the ML?
<clivejo_> I am not on the ML any more
<tsimonq2> You can still send emails to the ML
<clivejo_> do you want me to wash all my dirty laundry in public?
<tsimonq2> No, but you *always* need to send something to the ML, *riiiiiiiiiight*?
<clivejo_> including your personal "mission" to have a certain someone kicked off the project?
<tsimonq2> Who?
<clivejo_> you are making me very angry.  Could someone on the KC please identify the issues and strings I need to resolve
<clivejo_> acheronuk has been given access to the Linode server.  The old KCI server (blue systems) is available for use for experimental work
<clivejo_> ie on the new KCI if required
<clivejo_> acheronuk should also have access to that (he can ping me if needs help with that)
<clivejo_> the only outstanding thing I can think of is the unstable build on falkon valorie is using via my PPA
<clivejo_> maybe a ninja or someone could take that on
#kubuntu-council 2019-12-11
<IrcsomeBot> <ahoneybun> And I'm in the US.
<IrcsomeBot> <ahoneybun> Well I have been for a few hours.
<valorie> wb @ahoneybun
#kubuntu-council 2019-12-12
<IrcsomeBot> <ahoneybun> Thanks lol
<IrcsomeBot> <Sick_Rimmit> Shhhh, keep it secret..
<IrcsomeBot> <Sick_Rimmit> (Photo, 1280x960) https://irc-attachments.kde.org/Zxz0aVYs/file_20799.jpg
<IrcsomeBot> <Sick_Rimmit> Some good progress, but keep it under your hats.. I'll keep you posted ð
<IrcsomeBot> <Sick_Rimmit> Please do not share these images..
<IrcsomeBot> <tsimonq2> This is a logged channel
<IrcsomeBot> <tsimonq2> On IRC
<IrcsomeBot> <tsimonq2> So Internet can find it
<IrcsomeBot> <Sick_Rimmit> Doh!!
<IrcsomeBot> <Sick_Rimmit> Thanks @tsimonq2 You saved me posting the next picture Phew!!
<IrcsomeBot> <Sick_Rimmit> Anyway, its coming along nicely ð
<IrcsomeBot> <tsimonq2> Reason number 9001 for not having this channel logged...
<IrcsomeBot> <Sick_Rimmit> he he Doh!!
<IrcsomeBot> <Sick_Rimmit> Well, it is important that the council is transparent, KC members ( like me ) just need to keep that in mind ð
<IrcsomeBot> <tsimonq2> Right
<IrcsomeBot> <tsimonq2> I'm all for transparency
<IrcsomeBot> <ahoneybun> I'm pretty sure it's not logged.
<IrcsomeBot> <tsimonq2> Yes it is
<IrcsomeBot> <tsimonq2> irclogs.ubuntu.com
<IrcsomeBot> <tsimonq2> https://irclogs.ubuntu.com/latest/%23kubuntu-council.html
<IrcsomeBot> <ahoneybun> Well damn.
<IrcsomeBot> <ahoneybun> @tsimonq2 your part time job is to prove me wrong lol.
<valorie> @sick_rimmit -- looking good!
<santa_> dat key
<valorie> exactly!
<valorie> not that I'll spend a lot of money for that one key but.....
<IrcsomeBot> <Sick_Rimmit> (Photo, 1280x960) https://irc-attachments.kde.org/X3Y6PRHZ/file_20819.jpg
<IrcsomeBot> <Sick_Rimmit> How about that
<valorie> beautiful
<valorie> is that yours? or their photos
<IrcsomeBot> <Sick_Rimmit> That's one of the first machines, they're being prepared for reviewers.
<IrcsomeBot> <Sick_Rimmit> Not mine, one of theirs
<valorie> cool
<valorie> thanks for making this happen so quickly
<IrcsomeBot> <Sick_Rimmit> It's been alot of fun working with the team, and the really good news.
<IrcsomeBot> <Sick_Rimmit> It looks like it'll launch in North America and Europe
<valorie> @sick_rimmit have you spoken about this privately with Paul Brown of KDE promo?
<valorie> it would be good to give him a heads up IMO
<valorie> and not spring it as a surprise
<IrcsomeBot> <Sick_Rimmit> No, can you email he and I to introduce me /
<IrcsomeBot> <Sick_Rimmit> ?
<valorie> sure
<IrcsomeBot> <Sick_Rimmit> Then I'll brief him, thanks Valorie
<valorie> done
<IrcsomeBot> <ahoneybun> @Sick_Rimmit it will be cool to launch it with Kubuntu 20.04 LTS.
<IrcsomeBot> <Sick_Rimmit> That will be upgrade path, as we hope to be in the market before 20.04 release ð
<IrcsomeBot> <ahoneybun> I meant to ship the laptop with 20.04.
<IrcsomeBot> <RikMills> Seems quite bizarre to even think of shipping 19.10 to be honest.
<IrcsomeBot> <Sick_Rimmit> Nope it's shipping 18.04 with backports enabled, and some stuff pulled in, with an LTS upgrade path
<IrcsomeBot> <ahoneybun> Ummm what?
<IrcsomeBot> <ahoneybun> If anything there should be an option for 18.04 and 20.04.
<valorie> I see the value in both paths
<valorie> I like the every-6-month route personally but see why a company would ship with LTS
#kubuntu-council 2019-12-15
<valorie> @Sick_Rimmit did you and Paul have an email chat?
