#launchpad-meeting 2007-04-29
<lifeless> SteveA: is this channel still used ?
<SteveA> apparently not
* Starting logfile irclogs/launchpad-meeting.log
* mode/#launchpad-meeting [+nt]  by ubuntulog
#launchpad-meeting 2008-04-22
<barry-away> dang.  sorry folks
<jml> hi
<barry> hi.  got caught up putting max to bed
<mwhudson> oh, hi
<barry> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 04:11. The chair is barry.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<thumper> barry: I know what it's like
<barry> thumper: yeah ;)
<barry> so... welcome to this week's asiapac reviewer's meeting.  who's here today?
 * mwhudson is here
<jml> hi
<thumper> me
<thumper> jamesh: ?
<barry> spiv:
<barry> [TOPIC] agenda
<MootBot> New Topic:  agenda
<barry> * Roll call
<barry>  * Next meeting
<barry>  * Action items
<barry>  * Queue status
<barry>  * Mentoring update
<barry>  * Review process
<barry> [TOPIC] next meeting
<MootBot> New Topic:  next meeting
<barry> same time and place?
<jml> syes.
<thumper> yes
 * barry will be sure to get his son to be earlier ;)
<mwhudson> fine with me
<barry> [TOPIC]  * Action items
<thumper> barry: you can't promise that...
<MootBot> New Topic:   * Action items
<barry> thumper: yeah.  you never know what's gonna come up
<barry>  * (continued) thumper to report on pending-reviews killer in LP
<thumper> still continued
<barry> okie dokie
<jamesh> hi
<barry> jamesh: hi
<barry> [TOPIC] queue status
<MootBot> New Topic:  queue status
<spiv> I'm here
<barry> i had to assign 12 branches after my shift
<barry> spiv: hi
<mwhudson> ow, that's pretty heavy
<barry> we have three mentorees so i gave each of them 4 branches :)
<barry> but it did seem like a pretty busy monday
<thumper> barry: that was nice of you
 * barry is a nice guy
<barry> thumper: i'm sure you saw the email, at least i gave them an out
<barry> looking at pending-reviews, stub has many pink branches.  i guess the db opens soon, right?
<thumper> barry: it should have been open on last friday
<thumper> but didn't happen
<thumper> Rinchen is chasing
<barry> because of the cherry picks?
<thumper> no idea why
<barry> i'm betting that's it
<barry> 1.2.3  the release that would not die
<barry> though it nearly killed us
<thumper> well, nearly killed you
<thumper> I was fine
<barry> yeah.  i need a vacation now :)
<jml> oh that reminds me.
<barry> jamesh: you still have stub's long lived testsuite2 branch, right?
<jml> I won't be at the next reviewer meeting :)
<jamesh> barry: yep.  I'll finish it off today
<barry> jml: be sure to add your apologies to the page
<barry> jamesh: rock on!
<jml> barry: will do.
<barry> jml: thanks
<barry> anything else on the queue?
<thumper> not from me
<barry> [TOPIC] mentoring update
<MootBot> New Topic:  mentoring update
<barry> nothing here i'm sure...
<mwhudson> n/a
<barry> [TOPIC] review process
<MootBot> New Topic:  review process
<barry> the only thing i wanted to mention here was the new rejection policy.  did everybody see that?
<thumper> nope
 * thumper doesn't scan the reviewer email list as completely as he probably should
<barry> thumper: so we got rid of the rejection queue on PR.  now, you can still reject a branch (e.g. becuase you don't have time), but we're now saying you should just put the branch back on the general queue, at the top, with a reason note
<jml> oh yeah. that's a good idea.
<thumper> ok
<barry> and it will just get reassigned in the normal process
<barry> that's really all i've got.  anything from y'all?
<jml> barry: also, I saw that there was a discussion about formatting multi-line sequences.
<jml> barry: what was the resolution
<barry> jml: yes.  i haven't caught up on that thread, but i know what /i/ would favor!
<barry> jml: we'll try to make a decision in the next day or two
<thumper> barry: FWIW I like yours best
<jml> barry: I'm ignoring the thread, because I personally advocate darkslategray.bikeshed.org
<barry> thumper: thanks
<jml> barry: but I'd appreciate it if you'd let us know when it is resolved :)
<barry> jml: make that mediumorchid.bikeshed.org
<barry> jml: will do!
<barry> okay, floor is open.  do you have anything for me, or for ameu?
<thumper> nothing from me
<jml> nothing from me
<spiv> Not from me.
<jml> (unless you think we should start a discussion to give methods and functions the same naming convention ;))
<barry> jml: well, you already know my stance on that!  <cough>pep 8</cough>
<barry> but one painted bikeshed per week please :)
<jml> sure.
<jamesh> I got caught out last time they had the method naming convention discussion
<spiv> (co-incidentally, http://pep8.bikeshed.org/ gives you a random colour...)
<thumper> spiv: lol
<jamesh> first people decided to go with pep 8 so I update my code, next day they switch back to camel case
<barry> zope don't need to stinkin' peps
<jml> jamesh: that would have been some time ago
<jamesh> barry: perhaps you could update PEP 8 to say something like "when in doubt consult barry" to the end
<jamesh> jml: yes.  It might have been pre-bzr
<barry> jamesh: you know there's only one true style guide:  * (continued) thumper to report on pending-reviews killer in LP
<barry> urg!  fscking hardy broken control key!
<barry> http://barry.warsaw.us/software/STYLEGUIDE.txt
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://barry.warsaw.us/software/STYLEGUIDE.txt
<thumper> hah
<barry> (although it needs a update)
<barry> anyway...
<barry> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 04:33.
<barry> thanks everyone!
<thumper> thanks barry
#launchpad-meeting 2008-04-23
<barry> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 16:00. The chair is barry.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<barry> hello everyone and welcome to this week's ameu reviewer's meeting
<barry> who's here today?
<sinzui> me, myself, and I
<kiko> me
<schwuk> me
<statik> me
<gmb_> me
<bac> em
<bac> me
<intellectronica> me
<allenap> me
<salgado> me
<jtv> me
<bigjools> me
<barry> great!
<barry> [TOPIC] next meeting
<MootBot> New Topic:  next meeting
<barry> same time and place?  anybody know they won't be here or if that time is bad?
<flacoste> me
<flacoste> time isn't bad, i'm just late :-)
<barry> flacoste: not as bad as me with the last asiapac meeting ;)
<barry> great, next week, same time and place
<barry> [TOPIC] action items
<MootBot> New Topic:  action items
<barry>  * gmb to add lpreview to sourcecode and hack rf-setup to link it in
<barry> gmb: didn't i see some updates to that on the ml today?
<gmb> So.
<gmb> I've got a patch for rf-setup.
<barry> gmb's got some freenode connectivity problems
<gmb_> Oy.
<gmb_> Which are hopefully resolved.
<barry> gmb: np, if you want we can move on?
<gmb_> barry:  did you see any of my messages about getting lpreview into sourcecode?
<barry> gmb: no, last thing you said was:
<barry> <gmb> I've got a patch for rf-setup.
<gmb_> Ah, right.
<gmb_> So.
<gmb_>  I finally remembered to contact mthaddon about getting it into sourcecode
<gmb_> But he's having problems pulling the branch from devpad (specifically bug 217701)
<gmb_> So I don't know when this is going to be complete.
<gmb_> I'll keep on top of it though.
<barry> gmb: thanks!  do you want me to keep this action item on the list until it's completed?
<gmb_> barry: Please.
<barry> gmb: cool, thanks
<gmb_> There's nothing like a looming action item to remind me :)
<barry> speaking of which...
<barry>  * barry to email about submit_branch vs public_branch
<barry> done.  just. :)
<barry> we can discuss that one further on the ml
<barry>  * allenap to update PR and communicate to team new rejection policy
<allenap> I think I did that.
<barry> allenap: i think you did too!  thanks
<barry> btw, i brought this up at the last asiapac meeting and everyone thought it was a good idea too
<barry> allenap: so thanks!
<allenap> Great.
<barry>  * bigjools to take brace closing policy to ml
<barry> which was done too
<bigjools> done, but sorry I've not pushed to a resolution yet
<barry> leading to an action item for me:
<flacoste> bikeshedding is going on
<barry>  * bigjools to take brace closing policy to ml
 * bigjools gets deja vu
<barry> flacoste: you read the asiapac notes, didn't you? :)
<gmb_> flacoste: That means something different to me than it does to you, I hope...
<flacoste> barry:  indeed :-)
<barry> :-D
<sinzui> I liked the colours
 * bigjools also wonders what bikeshedding is
<flacoste> bigjools: http://pink.bikeshed.org/
<barry> flacoste: no, he wants http://mediumorchid.bikeshed.org/
<bigjools> ah
<barry> anyway, i will try to drive us to a decision this week and we'll codify it in our style guide
<barry> bigjools: thanks, i'm marking your action item as done!
<barry>  * bac to (re-)email the list about his PendingReviews notifier cronscript
<bac> done
<bigjools> PEP8 is generally "bikeshedding" in that case :)
<flacoste> bigjools: actually, that has a better explanation: http://www.freebsd.org/doc/en_US.ISO8859-1/books/faq/misc.html#BIKESHED-PAINTING
<barry> bac: yep, thanks!  i tried it but i'm not getting the emails when run under cron so i have to figure out what's going on.  but when run from hand, it worked just fine
<sinzui> barry I thought https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/private/launchpad/2008-April/027347.html was your final opinion on the closing brace.
<barry> sinzui: i'm happy to call the discussion over then :)
<barry> will follow up on the ml
<barry> [TOPIC] queue status
<MootBot> New Topic:  queue status
<barry> i know there were 12 branches on PR when i finished my OCR.  thanks everyone for cranking away on these
<barry> i think we're largely caught up?
<intellectronica> completely
<barry> you guys totally rock
<schwuk> barry: the only problem was you put four branches on my queue on Monday, and I was out until today.
<barry> schwuk: sorry about that.  didn't realize you were out. :(
<schwuk> Two went to on-call, one is done and one is in progress, so they're caught up with.
<barry> btw, my apologies to the mentorees.  i loaded you guys up :)
<flacoste> schwuk: actually, you should put a note in your queue when not avqailable
<flacoste> that applies to everybody, btw ^^^
<barry> flacoste: +1
<schwuk> flacoste: I know - I realised afterwards. However the canonicaladmin and the team calendar was updated.
<bigjools> can I put a note in saying that soyuz is destroying my social life? :)
<allenap> No worries barry, you gave me two of my own branches, which meant I had an opportunity to try out the new rejection policy :)
<flacoste> lol
<barry> allenap: i did that on purpose then :)
<barry> allenap: yeah, sorry about that
<barry> anything else on the queue?
<allenap> barry: It was fine, I noticed it pretty soon, so they didn't get old.
<barry> allenap: great.  and the rejection policy worked out okay?
<allenap> barry: I can confirm that it went smoothly and according to expectations.
<barry> allenap: fantastic
<barry> 5
<schwuk> barry: I've got a number of merge-approved branches in my queue from Friday. Can I just remove them, or wait for the owners to cleanup?
<barry> schwuk: the owners are supposed to clean them up, but i've found that often doesn't happen.  if they're still in your queue after they land, you can delete them yourself
<bigjools> we should send an email to remind people to clean up PR when their branch lands - again
<schwuk> bigjools: +1
<sinzui> schwuk: I often remove landed branches
<bigjools> it wastes my time to find out if they landed or not
<barry> bigjools: good idea.  btw, pending-reviews will tell you if they've landed because the branch will have a strike-thru
<barry> bigjools: but i agree, owners should clean up after themselves.  will you send that email?
<bigjools> sure
 * schwuk nudges gmb_ intellectronica, cprov, BjornT, and bigjools to clean up their branches in his queue
<barry> [ACTION] bigjools to email list about curbing your branches
<MootBot> ACTION received:  bigjools to email list about curbing your branches
<bigjools> mine's not landed yet :p
<intellectronica> schwuk: be my guest, you can clean them yourself ;)
<schwuk> bigjools: fair enough
<bigjools> of course it would have if PQM had not gone fubar yesterday
<barry> [TOPIC]   * Mentoring update
<MootBot> New Topic:    * Mentoring update
<sinzui> Schwuk has kept me very bussy
<gmb_> schwuk: Done
<barry> any thing on this topic?  just a reminder that i'll solicit for graduations and new recruits after week 4
<schwuk> sinzui: Don't want you getting bored :)
 * sinzui hacks on launchpad when he is board
<sinzui> or bored
<sinzui> or boared
 * jtv doesn't want to know about that bit...
<sinzui> boring
 * gmb_ resists a "squeal piggy" joke
 * sinzui was thinking of Oblix
<barry> [TOPIC]  * Review process
<MootBot> New Topic:   * Review process
<barry> i have nothing on this topic, so i'll throw it open to the floor
 * barry hears crickets
<barry> 5
<barry> 4
<intellectronica> ehm
<intellectronica> some folks can't use the review plugin
<intellectronica> we should try to get it sorted, since using the review plugin is now mandatory
<bac> https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/bzr-lpreview/+bug/195217
<intellectronica> https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/bzr-lpreview/+bug/195217
<ubotu> Launchpad bug 195217 in bzr-lpreview "ReadOnly error when running bzr review-submit" [Undecided,New]
<intellectronica> bac, you win
<barry> i think i had that once, but i "fixed" it by blowing away my rf working tree and re-branching it
<gmb_> I suspect that there aren't that many eyeballs on the lpreview bugs.
<gmb_> I know I haven't had much chance to look at them recently.
<gmb_> And I suspect that mwhudson_ is in the same kind of position (or worse)
<barry> yeah, we should all chip in on this
<gmb_> +1
<intellectronica> barry: wow, could you comment in the bug. that's a bit brute force, but if it works...
<bac> intellectronica suggested we get abel to do more experimentation and add info to the bug report, since he can reproduce it.
<barry> [AGREED] we should all chip in on watching lpreview bugs
<MootBot> AGREED received:  we should all chip in on watching lpreview bugs
<barry> intellectronica: will do
<bac> i'll contact abel to ask him for more info
<gmb_> barry: Could you add an action item for me to prod mwh about the 800-line limit patch I did?
<gmb_> I know he had some concerns about it but I haven't heard from him since, so I need to chase it up.
<barry> [ACTION] gmb to prod mwh again about the 800-line limit patch
<MootBot> ACTION received:  gmb to prod mwh again about the 800-line limit patch
<gmb_> Ta
<barry> we have some time left; does anybody have anything else not on the agenda?
<barry> 5
<sinzui> I was wondering if we all feel comfortable reviewing Javascript?
<gmb_> Hmm.
<barry> sinzui: and css
<allenap> Do we have JS coding standards?
<gmb_> It's not really my forte certainly.
<intellectronica> allenap: sort of, yes
<barry> who are our js experts?
<flacoste> intellectronica
<flacoste> SteveA
<intellectronica> there's a wiki page, and we try to update it when we can
<flacoste> any one else?
<allenap> I'm not bad at js.
<flacoste> probably sinzui
<sinzui> I was reviewing one of bigjools's branches. I knew several ways of doing something, but I decided to confer with intellectronica because we do not have a lot of rulings about how we write code.
<intellectronica> i'm always happy to give advice if someone reviews js code and they aren't sure
 * bigjools 's js came from Google, it must have been perfect already
<intellectronica> and if, like sinzui did, this results in a nice addition to the coding standards wiki page, even better
<barry> intellectronica: can you add a link to the js styleguide on this page: https://launchpad.canonical.com/TipsForReviewers
<intellectronica> barry: sure thing
<barry> [ACTION] intellectronica to add js styleguide link to TipsForReviewers
<MootBot> ACTION received:  intellectronica to add js styleguide link to TipsForReviewers
<barry> intellectronica: thanks
<barry> intellectronica, SteveA, sinzui can you put together some resources or ideas for helping others on the team get more proficient at reviewing js?
<sinzui> barry: I have some I can add.
<barry> i think this would also help us as devs as we start incorporating more js onto the site
 * sinzui may want css in there too since they are connected in the browser engines.
<barry> sinzui: awesome, thanks.  add it to the js styleguide i think
<barry> sinzui: yes, definitely
<barry> i don't think we have a css styleguide, so i think it makes sense to combine the two, do you?
<intellectronica> i don't think css and js should be together
<sinzui> barry: The style object in JS depends a lot on the CSS engine. You cannot make assumptions when working with that, but that is the only intersection.
<intellectronica> and i think we should ask mpt to own the css guide, because he's probably the most knowledgable about it
<barry> fair enough
<barry> [ACTION] sinzui to update js styleguide page with helpful resources
<MootBot> ACTION received:  sinzui to update js styleguide page with helpful resources
<barry> okay, 3 minutes left.  anything else?
<mpt> #1 on the CSS style guide: Stop ordering the style sheet chronologically!
<sinzui> Oh, that would be bad
<barry> mpt!  is there a css styleguide and if not can you put one together?
<intellectronica> mpt: how should we order them, then?
<mpt> barry, no, and yes, in my copious spare time
<barry> mpt ;)
<mpt> intellectronica, for starters, there are sections in the style sheet for each application
<barry> okay, we're out of time
<sinzui> nearest to the subject matter (related selectors) to take precedence without stealing precedence for other rules.
<mpt> Code, Bugs, Blueprints, etc
<barry> #endmeeting
<mpt> So one very helpful step would be putting app-specific styles in their proper sections.
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 16:46.
<barry> thanks everyone
<intellectronica> thanks barry
#launchpad-meeting 2008-04-24
<Fujisan> its my party and i parallel park if i want to with Hobbsee D:
<Hobbsee> gah.
 * Hobbsee goes to hunt for some staff
<kiko-afk> Hobbsee, the queue page working for you?
<Hobbsee> kiko-afk: sec, going and hunting for stafff.
<Fujisan> i will tell you everyday for the rest of my life what Hobbsee did to me
<Fujisan> i will make sure you will be reported Hobbsee
<Fujisan> let them review this
<Fujisan> what you did to me
<Hobbsee> i knew i liked having ops here.
<kiko-afk> what's parallel parking?
<Hobbsee> he's whinging because he got banned for trolling
<kiko-afk> I wish I could ban trolls on launchpad
<Hobbsee> i wish i could get freenode to do what htey say they will, too.
<Hobbsee> man, i hate being a woman in tech sometimes.
<kiko-afk> Hobbsee, there's a long series of articles on CACM about this recently
<Hobbsee> kiko-afk: oh?
<kiko-afk> yeah, are you a subscriber?
<Hobbsee> nope - no idea what it is
<kiko-afk> the communications of the acm?
<Hobbsee> kiko: i haven't, no.
<Hobbsee> kiko: and i can't test the queue stuff now, we've released.
<Hobbsee> presumably i'll be able to test toolchain-ey bits, if someone leaves it for me
<kiko> Hobbsee, well, you will be able to soon, anyway. :)
<Hobbsee> kiko: neat :)
<Hobbsee> kiko: why?
<kiko> because II will open, I'm hoping? :)
<Hobbsee> oh right
<Hobbsee> sure, and hopefully i won't have gone mad by then.
<Hobbsee> kiko: anywya, where would i find the cacm?
<Hobbsee> oh, my bad.
<kiko> Hobbsee, check out acm.org
<Hobbsee> kiko: yeah, found that much, sorry
<kiko> Hobbsee, didn't you do compsci?
<Hobbsee> kiko: i'm doing computing, yes.  not compsci as such.
 * Rinchen checks for mootbot
 * Rinchen gets a drink
<kiko> AND ACTION!
<kiko> me
<sinzui> my
<statik> me
<Rinchen> \#startmeeting
<Rinchen> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 20:00. The chair is Rinchen.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<Rinchen> Welcome to this week's Launchpad development meeting. For the next 45 minutes or so, we'll be coordinating Launchpad development.
<leonardr> me
<Rinchen> [TOPIC] Roll Call
<MootBot> New Topic:  Roll Call
<sinzui> me
<mrevell> me
<gmb> e
<rockstar_> me
<bac> me
<Rinchen> moo
<abentley> me
<intellectronica> me
<sinzui> me
<gmb> me
<leonardr> me
<statik> m e
<barry> me
<kiko> moink
<mpt> me
<matsubara> me
<EdwinGrubb> me
<stub> me
<salgado> me
<BjornT> me
<al-maisan> me
<allenap> me
<flacoste> me
<Rinchen> releases team is here... others?
<Rinchen> thumper?
<adeuring> me
<herb> me
<danilos> me
<rockstar_> I believe thumper has a holiday today
<Rinchen> mthaddon ?
<mars> me
<Rinchen> ah right
<danilos> jtv?
<Rinchen> so it is
<mthaddon> me
<bigjools> me
<jtv> me
<rockstar_> So I think the remainder of bzrlp (all two of us) are here
<Rinchen> barry?
<schwuk_> me
<Rinchen> oh sorry
 * barry already me'd
<SteveA> me
<Rinchen> ok then
<carlos> me
<Rinchen> [TOPIC] Agenda
<MootBot> New Topic:  Agenda
<Rinchen>  * Next meeting
<Rinchen>  * Actions from last meeting
<Rinchen>  * Oops report (Matsubara)
<Rinchen>  * Critical Bugs (Rinchen)
<Rinchen>  * Bug tags
<Rinchen>  * Operations report (mthaddon/herb)
<Rinchen>  * DBA report (stub)
<Rinchen>  * Sysadmin requests (Rinchen)
<Rinchen>  * New packages required (salgado)
<Rinchen>  * A top user-affecting issue (mrevell)
<Rinchen>  * Doc Team report (mrevell)
<Rinchen>  * Community procedure for unplanned downtime (mpt)
<cpro1> me
<Rinchen> * some interesting topic (kiko)
 * kiko chuckles
<Rinchen> [TOPIC]  * Next meeting
<MootBot> New Topic:   * Next meeting
<Rinchen> same time, same place, next week
<kiko> yeah, let's have a next meeting.
<Rinchen> any obstacles present with that? :-)
<matsubara> next thursday is a brazilian national holiday, btw
<kiko> those are the best meeting days!!
<BjornT> there's a public holiday next thursday for me
<matsubara> but I think I'll be around. thinking about swapping it
<Rinchen> ok then..
<cpro1> I won't be here too.
<al-maisan> same here ..
<al-maisan> it's May 1st .. a public holiday in germany
<Rinchen> [AGREED] meeting next week, same time, station - apologies: brazil, BjornT, al-maisan
<MootBot> AGREED received:  meeting next week, same time, station - apologies: brazil, BjornT, al-maisan
<carlos> I will not be here either. This is my last meeting as a Launchpad member
<statik> carlos: we will miss you!
<adeuring> it's a holiyday for me too (thanks al-mainsan :)
<cpro1> Rinchen: I'm not in br ;)
<flacoste> actually, i think May 1st is a national holiday everywhere except for Canada, US (UK?)
<barry> carlos: !
<jtv> statik: "next time, don't miss"
 * mpt hugs carlos 
 * carlos will miss working with you too...
 * Rinchen sniffles.
<kiko> cpro1, it doesn't matter -- you follow brazilian holidays unless you explicitly request to change
<gmb> May 1st is not a UK holiday.
<Rinchen> carlos, you'll have to joins us for the meeting
<mrevell> flacoste: Not for UK We have it 5th May
 * barry will take a holiday if flacoste will
<Rinchen> [AGREED] germany off too
<MootBot> AGREED received:  germany off too
<intellectronica> gmb: i think the uk moves it to the next monday
<Rinchen> [TOPIC]  Actions from last meeting
<MootBot> New Topic:   Actions from last meeting
<gmb> intellectronica: Yep.
<Rinchen> all of my actions from last week were completed.
<Rinchen> [TOPIC] Oops report (Matsubara)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Oops report (Matsubara)
<carlos> Rinchen: I will try to ;-) but will miss the funny 'me' part :-)
<Rinchen> carlos, you can still "me" :-)
<matsubara> Today's oops report is about bugs 220251, 221072, 221047
<cprov> kiko: I've changed my address, it should be enough to follow local holidays, isn't it obvious ?
<carlos> Rinchen: thanks :-P
<ubotu> Launchpad bug 220251 in malone "Calculating subscribers for bugs with multiple tasks is expensive" [High,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/220251
<ubotu> Bug 221072 on http://launchpad.net/bugs/221072 is private
<matsubara> salgado, should #220251 importance be higher? is it not causing inconvenience for marilize?
<kiko> cprov, nope
<matsubara> The project group milestone is broken on edge. abel already fixed and the branch is on the pqm queue. (#221047)
<salgado> matsubara, the actual bug fix won't help marilize
<mpt> Rinchen, next you'll be saying he can still fix bugs ;-)
<matsubara> Thanks BjornT and kiko for fixing the timeouts on the bug page (#220251)
<salgado> matsubara, what we need to do is run a couple DELETES in production
<kiko> cprov, you need to explicitly say you want to change to observe other holidays
<intellectronica> matsubara: a fix for 220251 has landed (and another fix to that too)
<Rinchen> mpt, I'm glad you caught  that ;-)
<SteveA> cprov: watch out for queens day next week.  depending how centrally you live, it may be impossible to work.
<SteveA> cprov: it's basically like carnival.
<cprov> kiko: it's not time to discuss it.
<matsubara> intellectronica: right, this is more like a thank you notice :-)
<cprov> SteveA: yes, I was warned :)
<matsubara> salgado: is that the db query in the LPProductionStatus page?
<cprov> SteveA: to not go to Amsterdam, basically.
<salgado> matsubara, it is
<matsubara> salgado: ok, thanks then.
<matsubara> Rinchen: I'm done here.
<Rinchen> thanks matsubara
<matsubara> thanks everyone
<Rinchen> [TOPIC] Critical Bugs (Rinchen)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Critical Bugs (Rinchen)
<Rinchen> same two
<Rinchen> [LINK] https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/launchpad/+bug/206654
<Rinchen> This is the memory issue. flacoste, SteveA.  Any updated status?
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/launchpad/+bug/206654
<flacoste> Rinchen: yes
<Rinchen> the other is for thumper and mhw who are not here
<Rinchen> [LINK] https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/launchpad-bazaar/+bug/118625
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/launchpad-bazaar/+bug/118625
<flacoste> the issue is with +bugs-text
<ubotu> Launchpad bug 118625 in launchpad-bazaar "codebrowse sometimes hangs" [Critical,Confirmed]
<Rinchen> so I'll skp that
<flacoste> and I'm working on a work-around
<flacoste> ultimately, this view should be rewritten to not use SQLObject
<flacoste> but raw SQL
<SteveA> let's not mention particular URLs here :-)
<flacoste> or this funcitonality moved to API where everything will be batched
<flacoste> that's it
<SteveA> Rinchen: the result, operationally, is that from tomorrow or so, we should be back to having reliably stable app servers
<Rinchen> flacoste, great thanks. Looking forward to seeing the results.
<Rinchen> fantastic, thanks.
<Rinchen> [TOPIC] Bug tags
<MootBot> New Topic:  Bug tags
<Rinchen> there are no proposed bug tags
<Rinchen> [TOPIC] Operations report (mthaddon/herb)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Operations report (mthaddon/herb)
<herb> Cherry picks since last meeting: 2008-04-18: r6113 & r6110, 2008-04-21: loggerhead r156, launchpad-loggerhead r29 and r6141
<herb> Currently two cherry picks pending. Barring any objections we'll hold off until tomorrow at the earliest for them due to hardy.
<herb> Bug #206654 continues to be an issue, though it appears that flacoste has had a breakthrough.
<herb> That's it from me and Tom unless there are any questions.
<ubotu> Bug 206654 on http://launchpad.net/bugs/206654 is private
<Rinchen> thanks herb
<Rinchen> [TOPIC] DBA report (stub)
<MootBot> New Topic:  DBA report (stub)
<stub> I think all the DB reviews are done finally for this cycle. If you are not sure of the status of your patch, email me. I need to talk with bigjools re: archive permissions because I can't understand his email...
<stub> The DB server seems to be coping quite happily with the current load. This is good. This should also be the highest load we see for quite some time as we work on ways of distributing the load (unless someone manages to remove bottlenecks in the other systems ;) )
<stub> Done.
<salgado> herb, there are actually 3 cherry picks pending, no?
<bigjools> stub: talk to me after this meeting
<herb> salgado, well the 3rd hasn't been approved
<herb> salgado, sorry, I should have clarified.
<salgado> herb, right, good point.  can you approve it kiko?
<Rinchen> thanks stub
<Rinchen> any questions for stub before I move on?
<kiko> salgado, yeah, mats just asked me
<kiko> salgado, I thought I had approved it. maybe my wiki edit conflicted and I didn't see that happen. it's approved.
<salgado> kiko, he asked for approval for the pending SQL.  there's a cherry pick there as well
<Rinchen> [TOPIC] Sysadmin requests (Rinchen)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Sysadmin requests (Rinchen)
<Rinchen> Hi! Is anyone blocked on an RT or have any that are becoming urgent? I'm aware of the usual ones.
<kiko> salgado, that I hadn't seen
 * Rinchen waves at bigjools.
 * bigjools waves back
<kiko> BjornT, question for you: does mthaddon know that we did a CB yesterday?
<mthaddon> I do, yes
<Rinchen> [TOPIC] New packages required (salgado)
<MootBot> New Topic:  New packages required (salgado)
<herb> kiko, BjornT I sent an email to losas yesterday after the CB
<salgado> if any of the branches you're working on right now depends on any library which is not part of the launchpad-dependencies package, come talk to me ASAP.
<Rinchen> jtv, hows that xmlproc code change coming?
<jtv> Rinchen: I was just trying to squeeze it into PQM, thanks
 * Rinchen wants to know when he can unpin that package
<kiko> herb, one concern I have is that BjornT hasn't landed the fix on RF yet?
<Rinchen> jtv, awesome, thanks.
<BjornT> kiko: i haven't?
<mthaddon> kiko, I think it's in process, or landing...
<kiko> BjornT, okay, need to refresh that mailbox then :)
<BjornT> kiko: r6151
<Rinchen> [TOPIC] A top user-affecting issue (mrevell)
<MootBot> New Topic:  A top user-affecting issue (mrevell)
<mrevell> hi
<mrevell>  Happy Hardy release day!
<mrevell> The user-affecting issue I'd like to highlight today is that impact that interest in the new Ubuntu release appears to have had on sites that rely on Launchpad for authentication.
<mrevell>  I know this happens only twice a year but I'd like to acknowledge the slow-down in a post to lp-users and explain its cause. Is there some good news I can offer in that message?
<BjornT> kiko: i had to resubmit it, since the first one failed due to a spurious test failure...
<kiko> BjornT, known spurious test failure? :)
<SteveA> mrevell: the cause is some old software written when launchpad and ubuntu had far fewer users
<SteveA> mrevell: the good news is that we're replacing it with new software that works much better
<mrevell> thanks SteveA :)
<SteveA> so this will be the last such slow-down
<mrevell> great to hear, thanks for that.
<mrevell> Thanks Rinchen
<Rinchen> [TOPIC] Doc Team report (mrevell)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Doc Team report (mrevell)
<mrevell> This week please give me your feedback on the proposed tour layouts. I've posted new drafts to the list today.
<mrevell> I know not everyone is directly interested in this sort of thing but I'm interested in everyone's view.
<Rinchen> mrevell, has the community members of the doc team been active lately?
<Rinchen> s/has/have
<mrevell> Rinchen: We haven't had much interest lately and I need to restoke interest after our 1.2.4 release (i.e. when I'm clear to do that)
<mrevell> s/clear/more free
<Rinchen> ok, thanks
<mrevell> I'd also be grateful if you could give a few moments thought on the podcast idea.
<mrevell> thanks Rinchen
<Rinchen> [TOPIC] Community procedure for unplanned downtime (mpt)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Community procedure for unplanned downtime (mpt)
<mpt> hi
<kiko> mrevell, I really like the new tour layouts, btw
<mpt> Last Sunday, Launchpad had major availability problems for an extended period
<mrevell> kiko: That's great to hear. If you have any specific feedback I'll give it to Gavin in my call with him tomorrow
<mpt> There were non-Canonical people in #launchpad who noticed, but they didn't know what to do.
<mpt> I started a mailing list thread about this on Sunday, but it hasn't come to any conclusion
<kiko> mrevell, I'll try getting email before I trvel
<mrevell> thanks kiko
<mpt> So we still need to decide:
<mpt> * Is it necessary for us to publish some way of getting in touch with admins when Launchpad is down?
<mpt> - If so, what should that be?
<mpt> - And if not, how will we prevent such downtime happening in future?
<stub> Is there anyone in Montreal accessible by our users?
<kiko> mpt, when we were down, what happened when loading the site?
<mrevell> mpt: Presumably help.lp.net was down as well?
<gmb> kiko: HTTP Timeouts
<SteveA> kiko: basically, the site was totally unresponsive
<SteveA> not even a 503 page
<kiko> zaz a bummer
<SteveA> or 50x page
<SteveA> yeah
<mpt> kiko, as I understand it, pages were *occasionally* available, but extremely slowly if at all.
<kiko> put something on the #launchpad topic
<SteveA> it was caused by the problem we just fixed
<kiko> or on help.launchpad.net
<kiko> ken
<SteveA> or are about to fix
<mpt> kiko, who are you suggesting do this?
<SteveA> however, I don't think we need to set up anything special about this
<mrevell> Is there anything fancy we can do DNS-wise that would redirect people to an off-site holding page in the case of this sort of outage?
<SteveA> mrevell: no
<kiko> mpt, well, that's my questions for you
<SteveA> the issue is this
<kiko> I'm not suggesting much
<SteveA> we have monitoring systems
<kiko> think it's a bit of a non-issue
<kiko> tbh
<SteveA> and they tell us when launchpad is not functioning
<mpt> kiko, people in #launchpad did change the /topic, but that's all they *could* do.
<SteveA> on Sunday, no one was available to respond to the monitoring systems
<kiko> mpt, I mean put in the /topic "call 1800LAUNCHPAD" etc
<SteveA> the solution is that we have people available to respond to the monitoring systems
<SteveA> and I'm talking to the information systems people in Canonical about that.
<SteveA> the monitoring systems detected the outage at the same time that people on the channel did.
<Rinchen> As a normal user, if the service went down, I'd like the warm fuzzies to know someone was looking at it.  I believe we should have weekend response to monitoring alerts.
<Rinchen> I would also be very thankful if someone posted a time when they think the problem might be fixed
<Rinchen> (as a normal user)
<matsubara> Rinchen: perhaps we should add that to the DealingwithCrisis policy/doc
<kiko> Rinchen, posted /where/?
<SteveA> Rinchen: if the monitoring system had been responded to on Sunday, the problem would have been fixed within 5 mins.
<Rinchen> kiko, dunno. Somewhere where I would naturally see it.
<kiko> the issue as I see it is that the site is down and there's no fallback place to look
<matsubara> Rinchen: I mean, we should add that the part of the procedure is to notify in public places that people are looking at the issue
<Rinchen> kiko, right
<kiko> Rinchen, that's the key problem, so unless we can answer that, all bets are off
<Rinchen> kiko, that rarely happens though
<SteveA> stop, please
<SteveA> we're talking about a problem that was fixed within minutes of an appropriate person looking into it
<mpt> SteveA, will you post to launchpad@ when your discussions with IS have a conclusion?
<SteveA> the issue was the lack of appropriate people on that sunday
<SteveA> and I'm talking with people about how we address that.
<SteveA> enough with 1800LAUNCHPAD ;-)
<kiko> SteveA, it was a non-proposal, in case you missed that :)
<Rinchen> hmmm
<Rinchen> I have more to say about this but I won't now.  Moving on...
<mpt> We have UI for planned extended downtime. We don't have UI for unplanned extended downtime, but we may not need it.
<Rinchen> SteveA, if you could post the results of that IS discussion please as mpt suggested
<SteveA> sure
<Rinchen> thanks SteveA
<mpt> thanks SteveA
<Rinchen> mpt, ok to move on?
<mpt> yep
<Rinchen> [TOPIC] kiko on vacation (Kiko)
<MootBot> New Topic:  kiko on vacation (Kiko)
<kiko> ah, right.
<Rinchen> someone call guiness
<kiko> I'm on vacation tomorrow through tuesday
<kiko> you can call me and I might have phone coverage
<kiko> but look to steve and joey for RCs
<stub> 2 days!
<mthaddon> Rinchen, to order beer, or break a record?
<kiko> I've looked at the PQM queue
<Rinchen> mthaddon, in this case, both :-)
<kiko> and there doesn't seem to be much at risk there
<kiko> does anyone have a high-risk, important or otherwise urgent landing that can't miss this rollout?
<Rinchen> I'd like to remind folks to clear out the pending-reviews queue if you haven't already
 * mthaddon calls guinness
<Rinchen> besides flacoste
<bigjools> kiko: yes, I am waiting for flacoste to land his restricted librarian stuff so I can land my P3A stuff
<kiko> and his libby patch for julian
<kiko> so I hear
<kiko> P<3A
<Rinchen> silence. that's a good thing I think
<kiko> okay
<Rinchen> thanks kiko
<kiko> you didn't speak
<kiko> so I won't make any exception for your branch!
<kiko> :)
<Rinchen> er right. mrevell where's what's new? :-)
 * Rinchen laughs.
<mrevell> Rinchen: Need to speak to you about that.
<Rinchen> sure, let's do it right after this if you can
<Rinchen> thanks all
<Rinchen> Thank you all for attending this week's Launchpad Developer Meeting. See the channel topic for the location of the logs.
<mrevell> yep, np
<Rinchen> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 20:35.
<barry> Rinchen: thanks!
<SteveA> thanks Rinchen !
<carlos> this one was fast!
<kiko> thanks thanks
<intellectronica> thanks Rinchen
<jtv> We're early!
<Rinchen> we're setting records here bub
<carlos> thanks !
<Rinchen> more meat, less fat
<bigjools> call Guinness again
#launchpad-meeting 2009-04-22
<barry> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 09:02. The chair is barry.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<barry> hello everyone and welcome to this week's ameu reviewers meeting.  who's here today?
<jtv> me
<mars> me
<barry> jtv: hai!
<jtv> barry: learning dutch, I see!
<abentley> me
<EdwinGrubbs> me
<gmb> me
<barry> jtv: D'r ken geen koekje meer bij
<jtv> :-)
<barry> i know we have a bunch of folks at the tl sprint
<barry> allenap, danilo_ ping
<gary_poster> me
<allenap> me
<barry> bac, BjornT, cprov ping
<cprov> me
<mars> salgado, gary_poster, ping
<bac> me.  darn, forgot again.
<salgado> me
<barry> intellectronica: ping
<mars> gary_poster, oops, sorry
<gary_poster> :-)
<barry> noodles: ping
<barry> rockstar: ping
<noodles> me (sorry)
<barry> [TOPIC] agenda
<MootBot> New Topic:  agenda
<barry>  * Roll call
<barry>  * Action items
<barry>  * Mentoring update
<barry>  * Peanut gallery (anything not on the agenda)
<barry> [TOPIC]  * Action items
<MootBot> New Topic:   * Action items
<barry>  * allenap to look into storm/sqlobject result set compatibility
<allenap> I'm going to try and do that today :(
<gary_poster> barry: re agenda, didn't we have that conversation from a review...trying to recall...two points...
<gary_poster> barry: what is appropriate to import in a view...
<barry> gary_poster: yes, it's on the list, sorry didn't move it up
<gary_poster> barry: cool
<barry> allenap: np, thanks.  we'll leave it on the list
<barry>  * flacoste to work on API reviewer cheat sheet
<intellectronica> me
<barry> he's not here today, but does anybody know anything about it?
<gary_poster> I can guess :-)
<barry> gary_poster: yeah :)
<barry> we'll leave it on the agenda
<barry> [TOPIC] mentoring update
<MootBot> New Topic:  mentoring update
<barry> noodles: how are things going?  any questions/concerns?
<noodles> barry: I haven't started yet... not sure who my mentor is?
<noodles> Should I find one myself? What's the normal process...?
<noodles> (I was away last week)
<barry> noodles: ah, dang.  i will work on that and get back to you.  i remember now that henninge is also a mentat
<noodles> Great! Thanks :)
<bac> and is deryck an official mentat now?
<barry> [ACTION] barry to find a mentor for noodles
<MootBot> ACTION received:  barry to find a mentor for noodles
<barry> bac: not quite.  he's going to do js reviews (mentored) for now
<barry> anything else on mentoring?
<barry> [TOPIC] peanut gallery
<MootBot> New Topic:  peanut gallery
<barry> we have something gary_poster wants to bring up. let me paste the discussion notes first
<barry> gary writes:
<barry>  * What is the goal (are the goals?) of our use of security proxies and the import nazi?  My understanding is that they are "belt and suspenders" to try and keep us from revealing private information.
<barry>  * Do we still agree with those goals?
<barry>  * Do we feel that our use of security proxies helps us with these goals?
<barry>  * Do we feel that our use of the import nazi helps us with these goals?
<barry> As we know, security is very hard, and trying to answer these questions well should not be done lightly or too quickly.
<barry> I am hopeful that the small, specific question of whether we should import removeSecurityProxies in view code will fall out obviously, if not easily, from our answers to the discussion above.
<barry> take it away gary_poster the orchestra leader
<gary_poster> :-)
<gary_poster> OK so, context
<gary_poster> barry and I were talking about what is appropriate in a view
<gary_poster> we agreed on this:
<gary_poster> "I think view methods should only return immutable Python basics like strings and ints, or security wrapped objects."
<gary_poster> We disagreed on this:
<gary_poster> Also, ideally view code would not import removeSecurityProxy.  AIUI, This is exactly the kind of import that import nazi is supposed to prohibit: tools that *allow* a view to return unproxied objects.  While arguing for the import nazi to be eliminated might be appropriate at a reviewers meeting, we should not make it more and more ineffective without recognizing what we are doing.
<intellectronica> dicts?
<barry> intellectronica: dicts, lists, tuples, sets are all basic objects, and okay
<gary_poster> intellectronica: dicts are problematic because they can contain things that need to be proxied.  You typically need them to be proxied so that the viral thing works.
<intellectronica> ah ok
<barry> with gary_poster 's caveat about *what* those containers contain
<gary_poster> right.  as a practical matter, disagree with barry's assertion.  as a theoretical matter, yeah, kinda sorta
<gary_poster> so maybe we need to dig into that.  but I was just expecting to dig into the import question
<jtv> What's going to keep us honest w.r.t. interfaces, if not the security proxies?  Or is the idea that we don't need to be?
<barry> gary_poster: so, i've had to deal with this quite a bit lately, with the change in permissions to private membership teams
<gary_poster> jtv: security proxies don't necessarily keep us honest irt the interfaces.  You can open up other things in the zcml, and in fact sometimes you need to
<barry> there are a lot of places where i've had to unwrap objects to get to their .name attribute.  clearly we can't do that in the model.  istm that the view is the most natural, *best* place to do it
<barry> and at least it's clearly obvious!  when you see removeSecurityProxy() that's a big red flag that something special is going on
<gary_poster> barry: and yet what you are implying is that this could in fact be a utility function elsewhere
<bac> barry: in using the removeSecurityProxy to get at a private team's name you must first be sure that your doing so doesn't in fact leak data
<jtv> ...which you ensure in the model, not in the view.
<barry> bac: yes agreed. but isn't the view the right place to ensure that?
<gary_poster> bac: right.
<gary_poster> barry: I'd like to step back to principles
<barry> jtv: i think the model is the wrong place in fact
<barry> gary_poster: sure
<jtv> Well here's a counter-example:
<bac> barry: yes.  but i don't want to see a pattern of "oops i can't get to the name, better remove the security proxy" when the proxy is doing it's job
<jtv> we implement private kumquats.  How do we make sure all the pre-existing views respect kumquat privacy?
<gary_poster> barry: as I said in the discussion notes, this is a question in my mind about our use of the import nazi, and our goals for our own protection in the view
<gary_poster> views, I should say
<gary_poster> so, the import nazi has been around a looong time.
<gary_poster> why is it there?
<gary_poster> do we still want it?
<gary_poster> I don't think we're going to resolve those here
<gary_poster> but I think we need to start the process of resolving them
<gary_poster> I have guesses as to why they exist
<gary_poster> sorry, why the import nazi exists
<gary_poster> and I think they are for belt and suspenders of the views
<mars> gary_poster, that may be a question for Francis
<gary_poster> to try to prevent data leaking out
<gmb> That's belt and braces for the brits in here.
<mars> gary_poster, or Curtis
<barry> gary_poster: that's kind of separate from the rSP-in-views issue.  afaik, importnazi doesn't enforce that
<henninge> sorry ... volume turned down ...
<gary_poster> barry: disagree.
<gary_poster> barry: I think that we have gradually taken the teeth out of the import nazi
<barry> gary_poster: just saying, i-n doesn't prevent rSP-in-view.  maybe it should, maybe it shouldn't
<gary_poster> it is a tool that is supposed to help as developers and reviewers conform to code standards, supposed to help us...do something
<barry> francis has the strongest views about what i-n is for, i believe
<barry> gary_poster: yes, do something :)
<gary_poster> if I understand its goal correctly (if!) then it is specifically designed to keep thigs *like* rSP from happening
<barry> (btw, it's importfascist, strictly speaking :)
<jtv> barry: right, might be Italian instead of German
<gary_poster> ah, thank you, that is less potentially offensive.
<abentley> gary_poster: That presupposes that rSP-in-view is against policy.
<bac> gary_poster: we don't yet have agreement on the policy regarding rSP in views.  if we agree it is forbidden then import socialist can be made to flag it
<gary_poster> so, I think we, as reviewers, or as a team, or as francis :-) need to decide why the import nazi is there
<gary_poster> abentley: absolutely.  that's the question I'm asking.  let me try to sum:
<salgado> the import nazi is there to make sure browser code can't have access to unsecurity-proxied objects
<salgado> without explicitly calling rSP
<gary_poster> salgado: so rSP is in fact the blessed way around this?
<salgado> yes
<gary_poster> my concern is that this is not known, written clearly, etc.
<gary_poster> salgado: ok cool
<barry> aside: it does other things too, like enforce __all__'s
<gary_poster> barry: but I think that is still part of the same goal
<salgado> gary_poster, yeah, it's very likely this is not written clearly anywhere
<barry> gary_poster: right, in that it's intended to enforce certain coding standards
<barry> salgado, gary_poster so yes, we definitely need to make it clear in our standards the official way of doing things
<gary_poster> barry: so, I move that we add a rationale for our use of import fascist, and our use of security proxies, and what the proper way of "breaking glass" is, to our reviewing guidelines
<abentley> gary_poster: That sounds more like general-purpose documentation to me.
<gary_poster> the import fascist is just a tool for us to enforce our policies, and I'd rather we understand/follow/lead from the intent of our policies than the letter of our policies
<gary_poster> abentley: not sure how we are disagreeing?
<abentley> reviewing guidelines are for reviewers, not necessarily for developers.
<gary_poster> abentley: oh I see.  yes, agree
<barry> gary_poster: agreed.  i'd like to give francis a chance to weigh in too.  gary_poster this sounds like a discussion for the ml.  would you like to start that there?  i will take an action to document any decisions in the wiki
<gary_poster> barry: yes, I'll take that.
<barry> gary_poster: thanks
<barry> [ACTION] gary_poster to take importfascist discussion to the ml
<MootBot> ACTION received:  gary_poster to take importfascist discussion to the ml
<barry> [ACTION] barry to document all importfascist decisions in the appropriate wiki page
<MootBot> ACTION received:  barry to document all importfascist decisions in the appropriate wiki page
<gary_poster> are we cool on the security-proxy-around container bit that we skimmed over?
<gary_poster> or should we add that to an agenda for a later meeting?
<barry> gary_poster: do you mean the entire container (dict, set, list) should be security proxied, or just the items it contains?
<adeuring> me -- sorry for being late...
<gary_poster> typically you proxy the container for simplicity.  If you *really* want to proxy the items only, you could, I guess, but that's not lazy for the programmer or the computer, typically
<barry> gary_poster: wouldn't in most cases the items in the container already be proxied?
<barry> gary_poster: talking about how the view sees them, not necessarily what it returns
<gary_poster> barry: ahhhh...that's too general for me.  not sure.  when you get a container from a storm result, I would expect the result set to be proxied, so that the items are proxied just by the "viral" story
<barry> gary_poster: that would be my expectation too
<gary_poster> barry: but...yeah...maybe :-)  as a simple-to-follow rule (for which perhaps there are exceptions) I'd suggest that containers should be proxied
<abentley> gary_poster: A result set is an object, though, not one of the items Barry mentioned.
<barry> gary_poster: maybe we should rename removeSecurityProxy() to yesReallyLeakPrivateData()
<gary_poster> abentley: agreed
<gary_poster> barry: :-)
 * bac must duck out early.  sorry.
<abentley> gary_poster: How would you define the security policy for a dict?
<gary_poster> abentley: I was just trying to come up with a general case I could think of.  I'm not sure what our general cases of returning basic python containers in views really are.  I'm just suggesting that proxying them is a nice simple rule.  security policy for a dict: I Think this is predefined.  It's public for the standard dict API.
<gary_poster> mapping API I should say
<abentley> gary_poster: So for dicts, we would have them wrapped with a security proxy that did nothing?
<barry> gary_poster: but that's just to ensure that any objects returned are themselves proxied right?
<gary_poster> abentley, barry: right on both counts
<gary_poster> as barry said, having a dict with the individual items wrapped would probably be fine, especially for our use cases
<barry> i /think/ that's an unnecessary in our case, as we're guaranteed to have only wrapped objects in result sets, but it's a good thing to bring up in the ml thread
<gary_poster> My primary interest in this is "easy to remember, easy to follow"
<gary_poster> maybe you are right that we are automatically protected
<gary_poster> in which case that is easy to remember and easy to follow
<abentley> gary_poster: I would want to profile before and after making such a change.
<barry> gary_poster: ideally, "just happens" and you only have to think about it when you need to violate the rules
<barry> and even then, it's made plainly obvious that you've thought about it and deliberately broken the rule
<barry> but of course, it will eventually happen that something will leak anyway ;)
<gary_poster> abentley: sure.  It's all in C.  It's very fast.  If we get utilities or adapters or other objects and*they* return dicts, then this is already happening.  That's probably sufficient, as barry is saying.
<barry> gary_poster: i'm certain francis could immediately confirm or deny
<gary_poster> barry: cool.
<barry> so, we have about 2 minutes left.  anything more to say on this topic here?
<gary_poster> not me.
<gary_poster> I'll put it in the ml post
<barry> cool, thanks!  this is an important discussion to have.
<barry> anybody else have anything for today?
<mars> barry, intellectronica and I had a small debate about JS, but it can wait I guess
<intellectronica> ?
<barry> mars: can we put it on the agenda for next week?
<mars> barry, should we use: if (!some_js_var)
<mars> barry, we can
<intellectronica> ah, whether explicit is better than implicit in JS too
<mars> yep
<barry> cool, thanks.  we're outta time, so let's break here for today
<barry> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 09:45.
<abentley> barry: Also, ampersands-in-urls.
<barry> thanks everyone!
<barry> abentley: agenda for next week, or ml?
<noodles> thanks barry
<abentley> barry: for next week
<barry> thanks.
<jtv> barry: dankjewel en tot volgende keer :)
<henninge> barry: Sorry for missing out, thanks for calling me!
<gary_poster> abentley: if you are curious, this is one of the default checkers in zope/security/checkers.py:
<gary_poster>     dict: NamesChecker(['__getitem__', '__len__', '__iter__',
<gary_poster>                         'get', 'has_key', 'copy', '__str__', 'keys',
<gary_poster>                         'values', 'items', 'iterkeys', 'iteritems',
<gary_poster>                         'itervalues', '__contains__'])
<barry> jtv: :)
<gary_poster> _default_checkers has a bunch of them
<gary_poster> so that lets you get, but not set the dict
#launchpad-meeting 2010-04-28
<mrevell> Hi!
<mrevell> OOPS
<bigjools> mrevell is turning into a webapp
<mrevell> haha
<gmb> me
<bac> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 09:00. The chair is bac.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<bac> who besides graham is here?
<sinzui> me
<noodles775> moi
<bac> and welcome to the reviewers meeting
<henninge> me
<bac> bigjools, danilos: ping
<bigjools> o/
<danilos> koo
<abentley> me
<bac> if EdwinGrubbs were here the registry team would be complete
<EdwinGrubbs> me
<deryck> me
<bac> noodles775: where's your mentat?
<noodles775> coming :)
<jelmer> me
<mars> me
<flacoste> me
<salgado> me
<mars> bac, Gary and Leonard send their apologies
<bac> mars: thanks.  did gary get hung up taking leonard to the train station?
<bac> let's get started.  rounding up everyone might take longer than the meeting.
<mars> bac, he had an appointment after to go to
<bac> [topic] agenda
<MootBot> New Topic:  agenda
<bac> * Roll call
<bac>  * Agenda
<bac>  * Outstanding actions
<bac>  * Mentoring update
<bac>  * New topics
<bac>    * Reduction of negation preferred over "common case first" in if statements? [henninge, jtv]
<bac>  * Peanut gallery
<bac> [topic] outstanding actions
<MootBot> New Topic:  outstanding actions
<bac> [topic] * bac to define new doctest policy regarding what is "testable documentation".
<MootBot> New Topic:  * bac to define new doctest policy regarding what is "testable documentation".
<bac> i must roll this to next week.
<bac> [topic]  * henninge to update the style guide regarding multi-line parameters in function defns and calls.
<MootBot> New Topic:   * henninge to update the style guide regarding multi-line parameters in function defns and calls.
<henninge> bac: done ;)
<bac> henninge: any progress?
<bac> yay
<bac> [topic]  * bac to write community reviewer and contributor policy and announce it on the list.
<MootBot> New Topic:   * bac to write community reviewer and contributor policy and announce it on the list.
<bac> i've started this email but haven't finished.  hope to send it off today or tomorrow.
 * bac 0 for 2
<adeuring> me
<bac> [topic] * henninge to update style guide regarding readability and 'if not condition' tests.
<MootBot> New Topic:  * henninge to update style guide regarding readability and 'if not condition' tests.
<henninge> bac: that's old, we discussed it last week.
<henninge> I mentioned in the style guide, too.
<bac> henninge: we discussed it but you said you'd write it up
<henninge> bac: I did ;-)
<bac> ok, great. thanks henninge.  you're a model of german efficiency.
<henninge> oh, that's still action items ...
<henninge> I wish ...
<bac> so we have no other new items to discuss
<bac> [topic] peanut gallery
<MootBot> New Topic:  peanut gallery
<bac> anyone have a new issue to raise today?
<bac> hey i forgot to ask how the mentoring is going.  noodles and jelmer?
<noodles775> from my pov, jelmer is doing great... just learning the process really... how do you feel jelmer ?
<bac> noodles775: ?
<jelmer> I think it's going well too.
<bac> jelmer: have you been kept busy reviewing?
<jelmer> bac: Not really, I've mostly actually reviewed other Soyuz branches so far.
<henninge> and one from Translations! ;)
<bac> jelmer: your day is thursday, right?
<jelmer> bac: Yep, but I've been on leave two thursdays in the last month or so.
<bac> right.  we'll try to get you some non-soyuz branches.
<bac> so, any other issues?
<jelmer> There's still quite some things that noodles775 catches that I didn't spot, but I'm sure that'll get better over time.
<bac> let's end early then.
<bac> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 09:13.
<bac> thanks
<jelmer> thanks bac
<henninge> thanks bac
<noodles775> Cheers bac
<abentley> thanks bac
 * bac tries to remember the asiapac meeting this week...
<danilos> thanks bac
<mars> thanks bac
<thumper> bac: when is the reviewer meeting?
<bac> thumper: well, it should've been 30 minutes ago...if i hadn't gotten caught up in something else
<bac> thumper: how is now?
<thumper> fine for me
<bac> damn i can't believe i've spaced out three weeks in a row
<thumper> mwhudson, rockstar?
<thumper> wgrant: ?
 * rockstar looks up
<thumper> reviewer meeting time
<mwhudson> hello
<bac> #startmeeting
<bac> me
<MootBot> Meeting started at 17:06. The chair is bac.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<rockstar> UI reviews do have a reputation for being a PITA, usually because they are done too late in the review process.
<rockstar> But that shouldn't excuse us from not doing UI reviews.
<thumper> agreed
<rockstar> Or even doing ui=rs
<bac> rockstar: i'll admit we've gotten a little lax.  i did a review for mrevell yesterday and could've insisted on a UI review but didn't.  (it *was* pretty simple)
<rockstar> (which I used recently with thumper, and felt okay about it since it's not available UI anywhere but dev)
<rockstar> bac, there's no reason why he couldn't have done ui=rs then.
<bac> rockstar: are y'all still doing ui reviewers meetings?
<bac> rockstar: ec2 land definitely doesn't support that...
<rockstar> bac, well, we just had our last call for now.  Our group is taking things to the launchpad-dev list now.
<rockstar> (for transparency as well)
<thumper> bac: with lp-land you can edit the string :)
<rockstar> bac, if the tools don't work, we should fix them.
<bac> thumper: true.  rockstar: agreed
<bac> i think the larger issue is getting a UI review if you really need one.
<rockstar> Yeah, reviewers should either say "put my name down as ui reviewer" or "go get a ui review"
<bac> perhaps just a gentle reminder will work.
<rockstar> bac, ack.
 * rockstar was poet and didn't realize it.
<bac> rockstar: would you like to send out such an email or do you want me too?
<rockstar> bac, I'd be happy to.
<bac> nice, thanks
<bac> [action] rockstar to kick some butt re: ui reviews
<MootBot> ACTION received:  rockstar to kick some butt re: ui reviews
<bac> y'all have anything else to chat about?
<thumper> yep
<thumper> just landed in r10800 of devel we have two new testing bits
<thumper> test_traverse in lp.testing.publication
<thumper> which given an url, will return a tuple of (object, view, request)
<thumper> it hooks into the zope publication method
<thumper> to do exactly what normal browser traversal would do
<thumper> this is then used in the update BaseBreadcrumbTestCase
<thumper> so you can get breadcrumbs for an object
<bac> neat
<thumper> without having to fake the traversed objects
<thumper> also I'd like an action point to remind people
<thumper> not to put new code in canonical.launchpad
<thumper> I moved the test case to lp.testing.breadcrumbs
<thumper> from canonical.launchpad.webapp.tests
<rockstar> Yay thumper
<bac> thumper you'll be happy i followed rockstar's example today and moved the registry javascript out of there
<thumper> \o/
<bac> i think we're the only two apps to do so
<thumper> it's a start
<rockstar> bac, awesome.
<thumper> my change to the breadcrumb tests required quite a lot of fixing
<bac> yeah, it's hard to believe the big migration was last march and we still have so much cruft
<rockstar> bac, did you have any problems with that?
<thumper> as I had to fix all the existing test_breadcrumbs
<bac> rockstar: no, just hunting down all of the relative paths to change
<thumper> even found one real bug
<thumper> that was not being tested as it should have been
<bac> thumper i did too.
<thumper> I wish we had a unittest school to help people learn how to write better unittests
<bac> thumper: perhaps you can lead us at the epic
<thumper> hah
<thumper> I'd defer to mwhudson or jml
<thumper> I've learnt a huge amount from them
<bac> seriously it would be a good topic
<thumper> it would
<thumper> we should do something like that
<bac> if only jml weren't so shy about public speaking
<thumper> hahaha
<bac> anything else?
<thumper> I don't think so
<bac> i'd like to apologize for missing the meeting lately.  last week i got super frustrated and left to go biking, completely forgetting about this meeting
<bac> i'll try not to do it again
<bac> please ping me if you remember
<mwhudson> i guess i won't be attendng after this one
<bac> mwhudson: you're always welcome to drop by...
<bac> mwhudson: hope the new assignment is fun
<mwhudson> bac: so do i!
<bac> rockstar and thumper thanks for bringing up those points.  i'll take them back for discussion in the bigger group.
<thumper> mwhudson: I guess it depends on how much LP work you acdtually do
<bac> i need to run.  ttyl.
<mwhudson> yeah
<bac> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 17:25.
<mwhudson> bac: bye for now
<thumper> thanks bac
#launchpad-meeting 2010-04-29
<Ursinha> #startmeeting
<danilos> koo
<Ursinha> Welcome to this week's Launchpad Production Meeting. For the next 45 minutes or so, we'll be coordinating the resolution of specific Launchpad bugs and issues.
<MootBot> Meeting started at 11:00. The chair is Ursinha.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<Ursinha> [TOPIC] Roll Call
<Ursinha> Not on the Launchpad Dev team? Welcome! Come "me" with the rest of us!
<MootBot> New Topic:  Roll Call
 * rockstar  
<Ursinha> me me
<EdwinGrubbs> me
<matsubara> me
<Ursinha> matsubara, Chex, bigjools, hello
<Ursinha> :)
<danilos> me
<allenap> me
 * Ursinha throws a shoe on bigjools 
 * bigjools dodges the shoe and returns fire with a custard pie
<Chex> me
<Ursinha> so we're all here hehe
<Ursinha> [TOPIC] Agenda
<Ursinha>  * Actions from last meeting
<Ursinha>  * Oops report & Critical Bugs & Broken scripts
<Ursinha>  * Operations report (mthaddon/Chex/spm/mbarnett)
<Ursinha>  * DBA report (stub)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Agenda
<Ursinha>  * QA stats of the week
<Ursinha>  * Proposed items
<Ursinha> [TOPIC] * Actions from last meeting
<MootBot> New Topic:  * Actions from last meeting
<Ursinha> * allenap to follow up with deryck about bug 230106
<Ursinha> * gary_poster to triage bug 568456
<Ursinha> * Chex to work with gary_poster or salgado to sort out how to use the meliae hooks to debug librarian and LP memory leaks
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 230106 in malone "emails interface oops reports need better error messages" [Low,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/230106
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 568456 in launchpad-foundations "GpgmeError raised importing public gpg key" [Low,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/568456
<Ursinha> * matsubara to ask stub for the DBA report
<Ursinha>     * Done.
<Ursinha> * matsubara to update qa stats in the MeetingAgenda page
<Ursinha>     * Done.
<Ursinha> bug 568456 is triaged, so done
<Ursinha> I'll be talking about bug 230106 in the oops section
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 230106 in malone "emails interface oops reports need better error messages" [Low,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/230106
<Ursinha> so, moving on
<Ursinha> ah, not that fast, Chex, was your item sorted out?
<Ursinha> Chex, hello :)
<Chex> Ursinha: yes It was.. I will be notifying the losa's about the
<Chex> proper procedure for crash-dump generation on the lp servers today
<Ursinha> thanks Chex!
<Ursinha> [TOPIC] * Oops report & Critical Bugs & Broken scripts
<MootBot> New Topic:  * Oops report & Critical Bugs & Broken scripts
<Chex> I touched base with salgado today
<Ursinha> the most offenders are old ones
<Ursinha> still a lot of oopses daily due to bug 553361
<Ursinha> matsubara, do you know if that is going to be fixed in time for the rollout?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 553361 in launchpad-foundations "OOPS when accessing launchpad with no referrer, eg. via wget" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/553361
<Ursinha> this is really annoying and it's "tainting" oops summaries :/
<matsubara> Ursinha, it will not
<Ursinha> matsubara, :(
<Ursinha> matsubara, do you know if that can be fixed for a CP later then?
<matsubara> Ursinha, always
<Ursinha> matsubara, not much later :)
<matsubara> I'll bring it up to gary on today's call
<Ursinha> thanks a lot matsubara
<Ursinha> [action] matsubara to talk with gary_poster about  a CP for bug 553361
<MootBot> ACTION received:  matsubara to talk with gary_poster about  a CP for bug 553361
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 553361 in launchpad-foundations "OOPS when accessing launchpad with no referrer, eg. via wget" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/553361
<Ursinha> also, we're having about 270 oopses of the "None: None" kind (OOPS-1579CEMAIL1) on a daily basis
<ubottu> https://lp-oops.canonical.com/oops.py/?oopsid=1579CEMAIL1
<Ursinha> we cannot say what's the problem because the oops report is almost empty, and we'd need to fix bug 230106 to have more info
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 230106 in malone "emails interface oops reports need better error messages" [Low,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/230106
<Ursinha> deryck said it won't be fixed soon, but I guess that given the number of oopses maybe we should try something to diagnose that problem
<Ursinha> allenap, any suggestions?
<allenap> Ursinha: I'll bump the bug up to High and explain why. It is scheduled to happen soon, this will make it happen sooner.
<Ursinha> or anyone else
<Ursinha> thanks a lot allenap
<matsubara> Ursinha, of course we know what's the problem
<matsubara> it's bug 54005, isn't it?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 54005 in launchpad-foundations "bugs.launchpad.ubuntu.com email ending up in Launchpad mailbox" [Low,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/54005
<Ursinha> matsubara, no, we're not sure because the bug is too old
<matsubara> the fact they show up a None None is 230106
<Ursinha> yes, that's what I said :) we need to fix 230106 in order to find out if the 270 oopses are really 54005
<Ursinha> [action] allenap to bump bug 230106 to High and explain why
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 230106 in malone "emails interface oops reports need better error messages" [Low,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/230106
<MootBot> ACTION received:  allenap to bump bug 230106 to High and explain why
<matsubara> Ursinha, we don't need bug 230106 fixed to fix bug 54005
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 54005 in launchpad-foundations "bugs.launchpad.ubuntu.com email ending up in Launchpad mailbox" [Low,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/54005
<Ursinha> matsubara, read what I said again :)
<matsubara> it's either 54005 is invalid because it's too old or we re-purpose it to fix OOPS-1579CEMAIL1
<ubottu> https://lp-oops.canonical.com/oops.py/?oopsid=1579CEMAIL1
<Ursinha> we're having a higher number of timeouts as well, about 800, and that doesn't seem to be specific to a part of launchpad
<matsubara> I'm disagreeing that 230106 needs to fixed first
<Ursinha> matsubara, I didn't say that we need to fix one to fix the other, I said we need to fix one to be able to see if the oopses are really the other
<Ursinha> does anyone have a clue about the higher number of timeouts?
<matsubara> and that's what I'm disagreeing about
<Ursinha> matsubara, are you sure that oops is 54005?
<Ursinha> not all oopses None None are bugs email
<matsubara> pretty sure, but as I said, one doesn't need to be sure to fix OOPS-1579CEMAIL1
<ubottu> https://lp-oops.canonical.com/oops.py/?oopsid=1579CEMAIL1
<matsubara> yes, some are from the spec tracker
<matsubara> which is also mentioned in the bug report
<Ursinha> matsubara, we discussed that two meetings ago, I guess, that's where this conclusion came from
<Ursinha> matsubara, but of course, you can discuss that bug with gary as well, that would be much appreciated :)
<matsubara> ok
<Ursinha> [action] matsubara to discuss bug 54005 with gary_poster
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 54005 in launchpad-foundations "bugs.launchpad.ubuntu.com email ending up in Launchpad mailbox" [Low,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/54005
<MootBot> ACTION received:  matsubara to discuss bug 54005 with gary_poster
<Ursinha> bigjools, distributionmirror-prober script has failed twice today, is that under soyuz?
<bigjools> Ursinha: registry
<Ursinha> bigjools, thanks
<Ursinha> EdwinGrubbs, do you know what's going on with distributionmirror-prober script, that failed twice today?
<EdwinGrubbs> Ursinha: no, I don't know anything about it. can you point me at the error messages? I'll look into it.
<Ursinha> EdwinGrubbs, sure, I'll do that as soon as the meeting finishes, thanks!
<Ursinha> we have no critical bugs! yay!
<Ursinha> I'm moving on
<Ursinha> thanks guys
<Ursinha> [TOPIC] * Operations report (mthaddon/Chex/spm/mbarnett)
<MootBot> New Topic:  * Operations report (mthaddon/Chex/spm/mbarnett)
 * Ursinha hands Chex the mic
<Ursinha> Chex, stage is empty, c'mon
<Chex> hello everyone
<danilos> hello Chex
<Chex> it was a quiet week LP-wise as us LOSA's were in release prep all week.
<Chex> I just have these incidents to report:
<Chex>  - LP incidents of note: : 22-Apr: CP 9194 to librarian : 25-Apr: each app server on wampee using > 1.1G RSS - restarted
<Chex> Does Anyone have any questions or comments for us?
<Ursinha> anyone?
<Ursinha> thanks Chex
<Ursinha> [TOPIC] * DBA report (stub)
<MootBot> New Topic:  * DBA report (stub)
<Ursinha> I sent one email to stub asking for the report
<Ursinha> next :)
<Ursinha> [TOPIC] * QA stats of the week
<MootBot> New Topic:  * QA stats of the week
<Ursinha> launchpadlib: 10
<Ursinha> launchpad-buildd: 10
<Ursinha> lp-dev-utils: 9
<Ursinha> launchpad-dev-moin-theme: 6
<Ursinha> launchpad-code: 5
<Ursinha> soyuz: 4
<Ursinha> malone: 4
<Ursinha> launchpad-registry: 3
<Ursinha> lp-qa-tools: 3
<Ursinha> lpbuildbot: 2
<Ursinha> trac-launchpad-migrator: 2
<Ursinha> launchpad-news-wordpress-theme: 2
<Ursinha> launchpad-help-moin-theme: 2
<Ursinha> launchpad-cscvs: 2
<Ursinha> launchpad-loggerhead: 1
<Ursinha> launchpad-documentation: 1
<Ursinha> tickcount: 1
<Ursinha> so I guess we're doing pretty well triaging, those numbers look better every week
<Ursinha> I'll triage the lp-qa-tools ones
<bigjools> what are those numbers?
<Ursinha> bigjools, untriaged bugs for each of those projects
<Ursinha> bigjools, soyuz has 4 :)
<Ursinha> [action] Ursinha to triage lp-qa-tools bugs
<MootBot> ACTION received:  Ursinha to triage lp-qa-tools bugs
<bigjools> QA stats evokes something else for me
<Ursinha> bigjools, I agree with you :) why took you so long to say that? :)
<bigjools> I was trying to say it in a way that wouldn't offend :)
<bigjools> not sure I didn't fail
<Ursinha> Untested items per team:
<Ursinha> Code: 4
<Ursinha> Foundations: 4
<Ursinha> Registry: 2
<Ursinha> Bugs: 6
<Ursinha> Translations: 3
<Ursinha> Soyuz: 7
<bigjools>  /o\
<Ursinha> Strategy: 1
<Ursinha> bigjools, no, that's ok :) I'm asking because I guess we're having this section of the meeting for over a month now
<Ursinha> bigjools, not sure that helped you :P
<bigjools> :)
<Ursinha> I'll try to come up with a better way to use that info here
<Ursinha> but I can say that all teams are pretty good comparing to past cycles :)
<Ursinha> I'm moving on then
<Ursinha> bigjools, thanks :)
<Ursinha> [TOPIC] * Proposed items
<MootBot> New Topic:  * Proposed items
<Ursinha> None
<Ursinha> anyone wants to say something before this meeting closes?
<Ursinha> ok then :)
<Ursinha> Thank you all for attending this week's Launchpad Production Meeting. See https://dev.launchpad.net/MeetingAgenda for the logs.
<Ursinha> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 11:35.
<Ursinha> thanks all, and happy Ubuntu release everyone!
#launchpad-meeting 2011-04-28
<mrevell> Thanks for the approval allenap!!!
<mrevell> damn, wrong channel
<allenap> mrevell: You're welcome :)
<mrevell> :-D
