#ubuntu-doc 2005-01-03
<sivang> night!
<enrico> Hello!
<enrico> plovs: are you at the keyboard?
<ChrisH> enrico: Hey... I have three complaints in the #ubuntu-doc report? ;)
<enrico> Three?
<ChrisH> enrico: baz, moin, my hard disk :)
<ChrisH> enrico: I better watch what I say for I will read it later on the list. ;)
<enrico> Oh, come on, your HD was not a complaint :)
<ChrisH> enrico: You should have heard me swear at my PC last night. :)
<enrico> ChrisH: read ubuntu-doc in a minute and see me swear...
<ChrisH> enrico: Ah... Enrico "Backspace" Zini :)
<enrico> ChrisH: grrr... so grrr...
<ChrisH> enrico: The ubuntu live CD rescues me last night btw. :)
<enrico> Oh, so!  Are you up and running again now?
<ChrisH> enrico: After Partition Magic and gpart failed to restore my partition table that was crashed by either Windows or grub (no idea what it was) I just booted the live CD and... presto... I could read and backup my old partitions.
<enrico> oh
<ChrisH> enrico: But cfdisk, sfdisk and fdisk all fail to read the partition table. No idea how it did it.
<enrico> It seems like a bit too powerful, but cool!
<ChrisH> enrico: I'll just dd of=/dev/hda the disk later and reinstall everything. Home directory is in NFS, data is in NIS... should be easy going.
<ChrisH> enrico: Knoppix could have been good, too, but it didn't like my NIC.
<ChrisH> enrico: So this is a *good* story you may post on the list. :)
<enrico> :)  I'll do it tomorrow
<enrico> I mean, in tomorrow's edition
<enrico> Now, it's time to go downstairs and make sushi!
<ChrisH> Hand crafted? Nice.
<enrico> sure!
<sivang> hey folks
<sivang> what's cooking?
<sivang> :)
<ChrisH> sivang: Nothing. Sushi is eaten cold. :)
* ChrisH prays that his last christmas presents will be delivered today
* sivang is the only one who doesn't get xmas presents. :(
<ChrisH> I could well skip x-mas. Can't hear the "but this year we will not spend money on presents" sentence. Same lie as every year. :(
* sivang still wants a xmas present :)
<ChrisH> sivang: What do you wish for?
<ChrisH> sivang: Do you celebrate x-mas that much in il?
<sivang> ChrisH: no :) I just wish for a present :) a new laptop? :)
<froud> potting around the ubuntu web site. where can is co src's for docs
<froud> svn cvs?
<froud> anyone tuned
<sivang> that was strange
<sivang> hey froud , what were you looking for?
<froud> I'm looking for a svn or cvs to checkout docbook srcs
<froud> loads in the wiki, I see this, but what's in the source
<sivang> eh
<sivang> just a sec, I'll give you the svn info
<froud> perhaps I'm just confused
<sivang> no you're right :)
<sivang> we have many stuff on the wiki,
<froud> yes was reading
<sivang> but there is 1 big handbook, 1 faq, 1 quickbook
<sivang> in the svn,
<froud> but now I am looking for Docbook sources to checkout
<sivang> the problem is that it's admin is currently on vacation :(
<sivang> but we're working to fix this up - please talk to enrico when he's online here,
<sivang> he has mirroed the archive
<sivang> plus
<froud> So no information on the website to where and what about svn
<sivang> this is the info, see if you can checkout sometime when the server comes back again.
<sivang> Path: .
<sivang> URL: http://69.155.172.150/faq
<sivang> Repository UUID: 1e033ed4-87e8-0310-8703-d68c7bbd86c9
<sivang> Revision: 94
<sivang> Node Kind: directory
<sivang> Schedule: normal
<sivang> Last Changed Author: plovs
<sivang> Last Changed Rev: 94
<sivang> Last Changed Date: 2004-12-23 00:37:12 +0200 (Thu, 23 Dec 2004)
<sivang> svn co http://69.155.172.150/faq
<sivang> should do it, when it's up.
<sivang> (it's currently down from here)
<froud> ok wheres the info on creating and submitting patches
<froud> I want to start in the source by reading and will edit as I go.
<froud> Nothing major at first
<froud> Learn your system and then move up
<sivang> when you'll manage to checkout, just go over the sources.
<sivang> when you have a patch, you can send it on the mailing list and people would review it and patch it. If you get big in changes, we will give you svn access.
<froud> yep that's my plan. how do you like patches small bits are long and large :-)
<froud> I see so they dont mind patches on the list, ok
<sivang> no we don't.
<sivang> actually, as the current svn server is down,
<sivang> so it's would be great.
<ChrisH> Great...
<sivang> ChrisH: what the hell with the SVN server?
<sivang> :)
<ChrisH> sivang: Better ask what the hell is going on in my network!
<sivang> oh god
<sivang> sorry I asked..
<ChrisH> sivang: My workstation had the disk crash. You know that.
<sivang> Christams taffic?
<sivang> yes
<ChrisH> sivang: Now the main server (torf=firewall) started to beep a few hours ago. I didn't understand why.
<sivang> oh god.
<ChrisH> sivang: After a reboot the BIOS told me the CPU would be 95 hot
<sivang> eh!!!!!!!!!11
<ChrisH> sivang: CPU fan stopped working.
<sivang> is he ok? I care for this little machine..
<ChrisH> sivang: CPU crashed, took the mainboard with it.
<ChrisH> sivang: Then I thought I'd try the CPU in Pamelas PC.
<ChrisH> sivang: Guess what...
<ChrisH> sivang: Mainboard broken, too.
<ChrisH> sivang: Two PCs to hell just because of a tiny CPU cooler.
* sivang moans the death of torf. :(.........
<ChrisH> sivang: Just went to the PC shop and spent 500 Eur on new hardware just for the sake of a stupid CPU fan.
<sivang> my god
<sivang> that's so bad
<ChrisH> sivang: It hadn't been so bad if not everything else in my network would go wild at the moment.
* ChrisH is severely pissed
<ChrisH> ...and that one day before christmas
<sivang> what else has gone bad?
<ChrisH> At least torf seems to be restored.
<sivang> ah so his back alive? Phew
<ChrisH> sivang: My own PC... where I could hardly restore anything.
<sivang> yes I heared about the crash,
<sivang> well I had something like that 6 months ago - 
<ChrisH> sivang: I need to switch it off again in a few minutes to close the case and put it back into the 19" rack.
<sivang> eventually I had to buy a new machine.
<ChrisH> sivang: The disk crash wouldn't be too bad either because most things are on the file server (torf) and backed up daily.
<ChrisH> sivang: Just that I was working no a giant video project about Marco and needed to put the 50 GB of data on my PC. And all of a sudden that partition with the video data on it disappeared.
<sivang> ChrisH: sure, I am not concenred about torf's uptime - just want it to live :)
<ChrisH> sivang: 3 of 4 PC are broken at the moment!
<ChrisH> sivang: You could try if email works again. I'm just checking everything. And if http://workaround.org works.
<sivang> ChrisH: maybe it's a bad luck day? You should take some time off and come back after christmas, like everbody else.
<sivang> I'll check that now.
<ChrisH> sivang: I'll surely not do much for Ubuntu in the next two days anyway. :)
<ChrisH> sivang: thanks
<ChrisH> GAH!
<ChrisH> It's so depressing I can hardly suppress a smile. :)
<sivang> speaking of crashed machine, I wonder what goes with the SVN server..erghghh
<sivang> people want to help, and all I can tell them - post the patch to the mailing list
<sivang> :)
* froud nods
<ChrisH> The SVN server is really driving people nuts and away. But if we had moved it back to my server it would have been broken now, too. :)
<sivang> true
<ChrisH> Let's wait until after x-mas and have the svn repo moved to canonical asap
<sivang> yes!
<sivang> _ASAP_
<ChrisH> The -doc team seems to be built on the same indian graveyard as my 19" rack
<ChrisH> Hardly anything is going as expected atm.
<ChrisH> bbiab... rebooting again.
<froud> sivang, seems like this may take some time. perhaps you have a working copy of HEAD and can export a pritine copy
<froud> I will start with that and merge into my wc when I can do a co
<froud> if you put it on the net i'll wget
<sivang> hmm, I am just fraid you'll work on stuff which already or will be simul. worked on through the repo, then it would be a pain patching it..
<sivang> but I can put it there even for you to give a glance
<sivang> :)
<froud> ill do svn up before I merge
<sivang> ok.
<sivang> Have to get some food
<froud> ok I have to go myself. send mail to sean@inwords.co.za with the uri
<froud> I'll check for svn in the morning
<cenerentola> ciao
<plovs> hi guys
<sivang> hey plovs 
<sivang> do you know what goes with the svn server?
<plovs> nothing, it is being depressed, then it does nothing
<sivang> ah ok
<plovs> i suppose John has a bas isp, and since he is on vacation, he doesn't notice, so doesn't yell at anyone
<plovs> bad isp
<sivang> I see.
<sivang> Well, we should get it into canonical server farm ASAP
<plovs> agreed
<plovs> at least my doc goes ahead
<plovs> what are you doing atm?
<sivang> what doc of yors?
<sivang> working on gst,setting the israeli ubuntu web server (zope), and hopefully when svn is up writing some stuff in my section of the handbook
<plovs> also zope? why?
<sivang> I want a content management system.
<sivang> :)
<sivang> for the main website, and I am going to set up a wiki for the live stuff.
<plovs> where is the server located, at home with you?
<sivang> not, smurifx is kindly providing webspace for country teams.
<plovs> nice, on debian?
<sivang> no idea
<sivang> I think on ubuntu servers.
<plovs> i doubt ubuntu servers run ubuntu :-)
<sivang> well, they do :)
<plovs> your kidding!
<sivang> ubuntu is _really_ suited to be a server machine, and all of the canonical servers - run warty
<sivang> I am _not_ kidding.
<plovs> wow
<sivang> why are you surprised?
<plovs> i only use debian
<plovs> ubuntu is so desktopish
<plovs> but obviously i;m wrong
<sivang> Well, I'm not sure how suited it is for low end servers like my debian router, but if you have two G5 servers :)
<sivang> there are 2 G5 Apple servers in the canonical computer farm :)
<plovs> i only have intel servers, but g5's would be great :-)
<plovs> off course ubuntu _is_ debian
<plovs> and debian rocks
<plovs> i am thinking about putting debian on my work laptop G4
<plovs> ubuntu i mean
<plovs> sivang: what are you doing on gst?
<sivang> plovs: extending the users profile mechanism to allow for templates of users to be added to the system, enabling a set of different default groups per each
<plovs> nice
<plovs> in python?
<cenerentola> what is gst?
<cenerentola> i know you'll hate me for this...
<cenerentola> but hey presto... a G5 it's a masterpiece of Sylicon Art... how can you avoid Mac OS X?
<cenerentola> how would you exploit all its registries?
<cenerentola> this thing make me blue.. but there's no Linux Distribution hand-crafted for ppc
<cenerentola> plovs: you should try SPARC
<cenerentola> im actually looking for ppl to help fabbione [and me]  porting ubuntu on SPARC architecture..
<cenerentola> then the last step is ARM/MIPS... RISC POWER:
<cenerentola> .
<plovs> cenerentola: try OSX for a while, and you'll know why you want to install linux on it
<sivang> plovs: perl / gtk / C
<plovs> and yeah, i would like to have a sparc, but they are # bit to $$ for me :-(
<sivang> cenerentola: I think they have||working-on a special kenrel for the inhouse kernel to use it to maximum.
<sivang> *im house server.
<sivang> ergh!
<sivang> in house servers.
<cenerentola> in house?
<plovs> :-)
<sivang> in house server of the firm.
<plovs> in the house and outside on the street?
<plovs> :-)
<plovs> sorry
<cenerentola> sivang: i cant get you.
<cenerentola> plovs: you own a g5 and you say that sparc are too expensive?
<plovs> cenerentola: in house is an idiom for in the company
<sivang> cenerentola: I think canonical has someone working||finished-working on a spcial kernel that will run the G5s
<cenerentola> sivang what kind of university do you attend?
<cenerentola> sivang: yep but all the rest.. is not optimized
<sivang> cenerentola: it's not me hehe :) I just use thier wonderful library and broadband from time to time
<plovs> cenerentola: i have a G4, and it is not _mine_ it belongs to my work
<sivang> cenerentola: www.technion.ac.il
<cenerentola> sivang: yep what course?
<sivang> check it out, you might want to do your Ph.D here :)
<cenerentola> plovs: right.
<plovs> sivang: it is not only canonical, several people are working on the G5 kernel, i read it somewhere, google knows
<sivang> cenerentola: plovs said it even better than me :)
<sivang> WRT the G5 specialized kernels.
<sivang> I myself have a personal problem with such closed hardware, I think intel can and will supress them in some point of time.
<plovs> sigh, that would be nice to use
<sivang> plus I really like intel's approach for open hardware.
<plovs> sivang: actually it is not closer then intel, more open actually
<sivang> I may get a pegasus PC , when I have a couple of pounds to through.
<plovs> the powerpc chip at least is well documented
<cenerentola> sivang: intel is not open..
<sivang> plovs: it is? so how come I can't go and buy ASUS's G4 for half the price? :)
<cenerentola> sivang: intel's are the worst thing, i mean hw, on this heart.
<plovs> sivang: because the market is too small
<sivang> intel is not open? so explain to me how come the first platform linux ever powered was i386 ? :)
<sivang> plovs: only 6 months ago I heared from IBM that they are planning to lease it out for other companies as well, still nothing conceret.
<plovs> actually several companies make powerpc, and it is a very nice platform, it runs slower, so less heat
<plovs> ibm, motorola
<sivang> plovs: gemme some names :)
<sivang> other then pegasus
<sivang> :)
<cenerentola> sivang: have you ever heard of RISC architectures?
<plovs> intel is not open, why do you think we have all those horrible bioses on intel and not on powerpc?
<sivang> plovs: this is because forms like dell and gateway hack their own bioses, and intel can't possibly be hold responsible for they b0rked code :)
<sivang> Linux works perfectly with a standrad AMI/Phoenix bioses, as per my experiance though.
<cenerentola> sivang: please +ignore your thoughts please ;)
<sivang> cenerentola: hey andrea, I'm not that hooked on it, I just like cheap things :))
<sivang> actually, I admire RISC archs, they are MUCH superios 
<sivang> superior.
<sivang> but, they cost...:(
<cenerentola> ok buy a playstation
<cenerentola> its MIPS
<sivang> hehehe
<plovs> powerpc is used in: tivo, amiga, the new xbox (!)
<sivang> M$ laied hands on the POWER arch! nononono!
<sivang> :)
<plovs> see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PowerPC
<plovs> powerpc is really cool, but intel is very powerfull, and with chips, the more you sell, the cheaper they get
<cenerentola> plovs: well dont worry they, intel, wont go over 3 ghz..
<cenerentola> only because... they can't
<plovs> sivang: those bioses are crap, really bad
<plovs> openfirmware is faster, smaller and more configurable, especially for clusters and stuff
<sivang> plovs: it depends what you want, if you need fast floating point cruncher, well, intel can get to 4GHz and still POWER will win :0
<sivang> :)
<plovs> why do you think people are trying to make openfirmware for intel?
<sivang> plovs: do you have anything I can read about intel "closed" approach to hardware?
<plovs> google centrino
<plovs> for example
<plovs> off course i386 itself is pretty open
<plovs> but still, intel is still a real american company
<plovs> but i386 is still the cheapest overall line of processors
<plovs> sivang: a very nice article: http://www.osnews.com/story.php?news_id=3997
<cenerentola> plovs: i386 its not pretty open..
<sivang> cenerentola: pleae elaborate.
<cenerentola> sivang: just send an email to alessandro rubini [the one who wrote "linux device drivers"]  saying that you support x86
<sivang> and ?
<sivang> :)
<cenerentola> ...feel the pain
<plovs> cenerentola: all the specs of most i386 processors are known afaik
<plovs> sivang: powerpc processor are just better, but better does not alway win
<cenerentola> yep but that's not 
<cenerentola> OPEN ARCHITECTURE
<cenerentola> plovs: powerpc are better.. but with linux you dont exploit them all
<plovs> cenerentola: why do you think that OSX runs better on powerpc then linux? the OSX kernel is open, it can not have any secrets
<plovs> darwin is bsd licensed, linux can just copy and paste if they would like to
<cenerentola> plovs: you are right... but programs for mac os x are written for that very architecture..
<cenerentola> optimized for it..
<cenerentola> you can't always have optimization and portability at the same time
<plovs> cenerentola: the only problem with the G5 is the hardware apple added to it, some is really closed like the airport cards etc, but the powerpc is not the problem afaik
<cenerentola> what i mean is that if you dont use mac os x..
<cenerentola> you are not going to use at best every sylicon cell of the processor..
<plovs> linux outperforms freebsd, the last time i checked ed ergo, it outperforms osx, especially in the long run
<plovs> the kernel is what counts
<plovs> the freebsd kernel is slower then the linux kernel
<plovs> not that i would notice it, it is not as if freebsd is like windows 95 or something
<cenerentola> plovs: no that's not..
<plovs> ibm actively promotes linux on powerpc, rs6000 etc, many big ibm machines are powerpc
<cenerentola> freebsdk can be slower than linux.. but what does matter with code optimization..
<cenerentola> is like writing in assembly or c++
<cenerentola> IBM ignored the who personal computer concept then they saw Apple computers moving in to a new market. IBM decided they need a piece of that pie but Apple had such a lead that there was no way to design an purely IBM product bring competition to Apple. In an effort to keep the architecture from being open IBM kept BIOS top secret and very proprietary. The rest of the PC was just off the shelf componets bought from various vendors. Like Intel for ex
<cenerentola> btw
<cenerentola> plovs, sivang , everybody: Buon Natale.
<plovs> cenerentola: agreed, ibm gave apple a compiler for the G5 (64-bit stuff?) that will make OSX fast, it is a better compiler then gcc
<plovs> a good idea, sivang, cenerentola good night, all, good night!
<cenerentola> ciao plovs
<cenerentola> good night
<cenerentola> ciao sivang ciao everybuddy
<cenerentola> peace
#ubuntu-doc 2005-01-04
<hornbeck> hello
<hornbeck> anyone around?
<froud> morn
<enrico> hello froud1
<enrico> hello froud!
<froud> bright and sunny in johannesburg following a night of rain
<froud> enrico, I got http://lento.uncasino.it/enrico/store/faq-svk.tar.gz
<froud> thanks
<enrico> bright and sunny in Kaohsiung as well: I have to install xsnow to understand we're in christmas time :)
<enrico> froud: no problem!
<enrico> froud: please use the list or IRC for any problems you might have
<froud> snow what's that
<froud> :-)
<froud> enrico, I know I can post patches to the list, but how do you like your patches?
<froud> ie
<froud> do you preffer a person to make all changes to a file and patch
<froud> or make all changes everywhere and make one big patch
<froud> sivang, boker tov
<sivang> froud: hey shaun , whassup? :)
<sivang> froud: didn't know you were speaking hebrew...
<sivang> enrico: morning!!!
<sivang> enrico: I see you put a great deal of work into the wiki in the last couple of days, got any sleep? :)
<froud> sivang, betag ma ata choshev
<froud> sivang, I lived there for 10 years
<froud> I got the src's thanks to enrico
<froud> I was just looking at ubuntu.xsl
<froud> <xsl:import href="/usr/share/xml/docbook/stylesheet/nwalsh/xhtml/chunk.xsl"/>
<froud> would it not be better to now use
<froud> /usr/share/xml/docbook/stylesheet/nwalsh/current/
<froud> xhtml.chunk.xsl
<froud> xhtml/chunk.xsl
<froud> That way in future upgrades of the xsl ubuntu.xsl won't break
<sivang> froud: ok, now, lemme get my thoughts straigt..Are you a former israeli?
* enrico is back
<enrico> froud: IDo as you prefer.
<enrico> froud: I'd say do as you prefer.
<enrico> You can make a full patch, then I can apply it to the svk shapshot I have as another branch, and do the merge
<sivang> froud: yes
<sivang> froud: It seems that we didn't know much about docbook but went striaght ahead and started hacking on it,
<froud> enrico, ok so I will make patches on a per file level
<sivang> enrico: can we get svn access for froud ?
<enrico> froud: I just made a branch for you corresponding to the checkout I gave you
<sivang> enrico: since when is that checkout?
<enrico> sivang: As soon as John is back
<enrico> sivang: sorry: export
<froud> enrico, ok
<sivang> eh
<sivang> enrico: do you know if you had the lastest version ?
<enrico> I'm so happy with this svk.
<sivang> svk?
<enrico> sivang: I can tell you the revision number
<sivang> the mirror thingy?
<sivang> enrico: do tell me
<enrico> sivang: http://svk.elixus.org/
<enrico> I can branch and merge and do whatever I want locally, then when I want I can sync with upstream in a big commit
<sivang> ah!
<enrico> It can use meld as a conflict resolution tool as well
<sivang> arch for svn devotees
<sivang> :)
<froud> enrico, svk is cool
<froud> is th ebuild env for docs not updated
<enrico> yes!  It also accesses CVS repositories, and they plan to access Arch in the future
<enrico> froud: afaik, everyone is testing them with yelp
<froud> I see the xsl:import is <xsl:import href="/usr/share/xml/docbook/stylesheet/nwalsh/xhtml/chunk.xsl"/>
<froud> this is old
<enrico> froud: you're welcome to fix it
<froud> yes yelp is fun
<froud> Shaun       did some great work there
<froud> enrico, problem is it dont help if I fix it and the build env does not have the same path
<sivang> eh Shaun McKane, an open source hero :)
<froud> also the makefile only builds html
<froud> what about pdf
<enrico> froud: I don't know if anyone is using the makefile at all
<sivang> I am :)
<enrico> I imagine when we need to export HTML or PDF, we'll see about the makefile
<enrico> sivang: ah, oh, cool!
<froud> enrico, make file is best way
<sivang> I've had to modify it by hand to produce the html for the deb pacakjge..
<enrico> froud: if you master the DocBook build thing, please update the makefile as well
<sivang> froud: would you be willing to add your changes? :)
<froud> yes and more but I need to discuss it with you guys
<froud> no point me doing what people dont want
<sivang> ok, what have you had in mind?
<froud> my tool chain is docbook dtd, xsl, saxon, fop
<froud> you guys need xi
<froud> so I can use xsltproc
<froud> my makefile will need all these
<enrico> froud: if it's in Ubuntu, we can put it as a build-dep
<enrico> froud: if it's not in Ubuntu, it can be a problem
<froud> so fop may be the problem
<sivang> froud: xsltproc is already a dependecy for that package.
<froud> but the build env for docs should be seperate from ubuntu build
<sivang> please elaborate
<froud> The makefile enables us to produce presentational targets
<sivang> froud: also, shaun told me we where abusing docbook in a way never be seen before - he specifically regerred to the inline image inclusion, do you know anything about it?
<froud> yes
<sivang> enrico: we need to fix shaun also an account, when john comes back from vegas :)
<froud> I will mark this for fixing
<froud> where is your issue tracker
* froud is deafend by the silence
<enrico> froud: the mailing list
<enrico> froud: or bugzilla
<enrico> froud: there's a 'documentation
<froud> your bugzilla
<enrico> froud: there's a 'documentation' item in bugzilla
<froud> uri
<enrico> bugzilla.ubuntu.com
<sivang> bugzilla would be good
<sivang> although I would rather replace it with malone :)
<froud> ok cool
<froud> my thinking is that people should be able to build docbook for html and pdf regardless of the ubuntu dist
<froud> then there is the build for ubuntu itself
<froud> three make targets
<sivang> froud: so you mean, make our docs buildable in any distro? I am not sure I am following you...
<froud> placing this make in the ubuntu src tree whould not be a problem if it is dcoumented
<froud> sivang, there are times when you want the docs to build outside of ubuntu
<sivang> like in suse? :)
<froud> yet you still want to be able to package it for ubuntu
<froud> yes, lik ein SuSE :-0
<enrico> froud: sure, the docs should build outside of ubuntu, but they should be built on ubuntu as well, so that they can be packaged in the distro
<froud> enrico,  yesssss
<enrico> I don't know if the autobuilders allow packages from universe: I can ask if you want
<enrico> or maybe sivan knows
<froud> The only component is Apache FOP
<sivang> enrico: we need to check, I can check each dependecy see where it stired.
<froud> I dont think its in ubuntu
<sivang> Apache FOP?
<sivang> froud: do you have a link to it?
<froud> Yes this is the only component that will cause a problem if it is not in ubuntu
<froud> http://xml.apache.org/fop/
<sivang> froud: do we really need all those formats?
<sivang> froud: I mean, xsltproc can do PDF i think 
<sivang> enrico: am I wrong?
<froud> enrico, btw since ubuntu is using GNOME the makefile can also build for yelp
<froud> sivang, wrong
<froud> and right
<sivang> froud: so there is no single thing that can make PDF in ubuntu without inclusion of FOP?
<froud> xsltproc will create an xsl:fo file
<sivang> eh, and then FOP can feed on it?
<froud> that gets transformed to pdf rtf etc
<sivang> rtf...
<sivang> hmm
<enrico> xmlto
* sivang scratches
<enrico> let me look more
<enrico> apt-cache show xmlto
<sivang> enrico: there must be something already in ubuntu allowing for at least half of the formats FOP supports.
<enrico> that should do everything, take care of everything
<enrico> it's in Debian, though, dunno about Ubuntu
<froud> we lose the docbook fop extensions
<enrico> http://cyberelk.net/tim/xmlto/
<froud> we will lose
<enrico> froud: with xmlto, you mean?
<sivang> froud: we can try suggest it for the seeds..
<enrico> I suggest to consult mako on this
<sivang> true
<sivang> mako : ping
<enrico> he should be the best person to ask about DocBook toolchains to use in Ubuntu
<sivang> yes, he already familiar with them in debian.
<froud> For DVI, PDF and PostScript output, Sebastian Rahtz's PassiveTeX  is required.
<froud> I'm not sure we want to complicate the toolchain that much
<froud> enrico, yes with xmlto
<froud> echo $CLASSPATH
<froud> /usr/share/saxon-6.5.3/saxon.jar:/usr/share/xml/docbook/stylesheet/nwalsh/current/extensions/saxon65.jar:/usr/share/java/fop-0.20.5/build/fop.jar:/usr/share/java/fop-0.20.5/lib/batik.jar:/usr/share/java/fop-0.20.5/lib/xalan-2.4.1.jar:/usr/share/java/fop-0.20.5/lib/xercesImpl-2.2.1.jar:/usr/share/java/fop-0.20.5/lib/JimiProClasses.jar:/usr/share/java/fop-0.20.5/lib/avalon-framework-cvs-20020806.jar
<froud> :/usr/share/xml/docbook/stylesheet/nwalsh/current/extensions/
<froud> we lose this
<sivang> froud: hmm
<froud> my toolchain is all java, but I can move to xsltproc for most suff
<froud> the problem is if we need PDF
<froud> do we need it?
<froud> would we like to have it?
<froud> if not then there is no problem
<froud> if yes then we need an xsl:fo rendering engine that is in ubuntu
<froud> or include one
<froud> fop is widely used
<froud> do we have to distribute an xsl:fo engine?
<froud> not sure it is needed
<froud> from user perspective they will set their own toolchain
<froud> they will by default be able to transform the xhtml
<froud> and yelp does not need anything except the db xml
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-doc:ChrisH] : Merry X-Mas from the Ubuntu Documentation Team
<sivang> ChrisH: marry xmas , hoo hoo hoo !
<sivang> ChrisH: Feeling better?
<ChrisH> ;)
<ChrisH> yup
<sivang> how is our loved torf?
<ChrisH> torf is back up... :)
<sivang> mail started to work again around 3am
<ChrisH> Just the on-mainboard-NIC is complete trash. Took me another hour to find that.
<sivang> ChrisH: god, a new mb?
<ChrisH> It negotiates at 10 Mbps/half-duplex.
<froud> yipes they still make nics like that
<ChrisH> Sure a new mainboard. 2x new mainboard, 2x new CPU (P4/2.4 GHz), 2x new RAM
<sivang> froud: yelp does fine with db/xml
<froud> sivang, yes
<ChrisH> sivang: Everything was broken after the CPUs got trashed.
<sivang> froud: but PDF is definetly something we want to support I think
<ChrisH> froud: Indeed. Cheap stuff that keeps admins occupied. :)
<froud> OK, I will do like this
<sivang> froud: did you get the branch enrico preparedyou?
<froud> I will create make targets for everything
<froud> sivang, yes
<sivang> froud: many people like pdf to print and stuff..
<froud> then you guys can decide
<froud> hows about docbook 4.3 can I use it
<froud> you have 
<froud> <!DOCTYPE book PUBLIC "-//OASIS//DTD DocBook XML V4.1.2//EN" 
<froud> 	"http://www.oasis-open.org/docbook/xml/4.1.2/docbookx.dtd">
<froud> want about <!DOCTYPE book PUBLIC "-//OASIS//DTD DocBook XML V4.3//EN" 
<froud> 	"http://www.oasis-open.org/docbook/xml/4.3/docbookx.dtd">
<mako> hey, what's up
<sivang> yo mako dude :)
<sivang> marry xmas 
<enrico> froud: I'd say, let's think about pdf when we need it :)
<froud> ok no need for it
<enrico> I'll have to leave in like 5 minutes
<enrico> mako: talking about DocBook toolchain for Ubuntu
<sivang> mako: froud has noted to our attention that he uses Apache FOP for his doc toolchain,
<sivang> mako: we checked and FOP doesn't appear to be packaged for Ubuntu,
<sivang> mako: do you know of anything already available that produces pdfs out of db?
<mako> not even in universe?
<mako> yeah, i use normal walsh's modular print and html stylesheets
<mako> docbook-xsl
<sivang> mako: that's produces PDFs also?
<mako> yes
<froud> mako, it's only if we want pdf
<froud> mako, they make xsl:fo
<mako> the print stylesheets will make pdfs
<froud> you still need rendering engine
* sivang thinks we need pdf. many users are used to it and it sometimes eases printing.
<froud> mako uri
<mako> trust me, they can make pdfs
<mako> froud: i use xmlto i believe
<froud> ah, that makes sense now
<mako> froud: dude, i wrote my thesis in docbook
<froud> PassiveTex
<mako> i printed it as pdfs :)
<mako> pdflatex
<froud> sure
<mako> yeah, it goes db->latex->dvi->pdflatex i believe
<froud> do we really want to complicate the toolchain like this
<mako> like what?
<froud> my chain is saxon (xsltproc), dtd, xsl, fop
<froud> so for pdf
<froud> xml > xsl:fo > pdf
<mako> but will that work with the modular stylesheets?
<froud> yes
<cenerentola> mako: can i ask what was it all about, your thesis?
<froud> the problem is we dont have an xsl:fo rendering engin in ubuntu
<mako> cenerentola: http://mako.yukidoke.org/projects/collablit
<mako> froud: file a wishlist bug in bugzilla and assigne it to mako
<mako> mako@canonical.com
<froud> ok
<mako> i'm not convinced it's really better
<mako> all that i care about is that a pdf pops out the end
<froud> no just easier
<mako> i run a single command, i get a pdf
<froud> yes
<mako> i'm not exactly sure how much easier you're going to make it :)
* sivang would prefer to avoid using java..
<froud> I will create make file
<froud> make pdf
<mako> i already h ave one
<mako> well several
* mako shrugs
<froud> mean for svn
<sivang> mako: for creating how many tagets?
<sivang> or what targets?
<mako> listen guys, i have to go catch a train
<sivang> mako: going back to airport? :)
<mako> i'm going to barcelona
<sivang> mako: again! :)
<mako> in any case, email me if you need anything more or mention my name.. i'll read the log
<sivang> mako: bon voyage
<mako> froud: it can go in ubuntu if it is has non-free dependencies
<sivang> mako: my regards to this wonderful city
<froud> mako, apche lic
<mako> is is java?
<froud> he he
<mako> does it run with a free java runtime?
<mako> if the answer is no, it can go in ubuntu
<froud> can do
<cenerentola> babbaro: what course was it?
<froud> Java 1.2.x or later Runtime Environment
<froud> ok this is not important, can sort it later
<enrico> froud: right: let's settle with what we can have for now, which is already enough to get started
<enrico> the moment we'll be unsatisfied, we can address it
<froud> ok so patches will come on a file basis. I'll look at the image stuff Shaun was complaining about.
<froud> I will put patches in bugzilla
<froud> tis better, right
<sivang> froud: thanks, I don't want to piss him off 
<sivang> :)
<sivang> he was like "dude, you are abusing docbook in a never to be seen before way" :))
<froud> you do have some strange things in this source
<froud> but hey we'll fix it :-0
<froud> :-)
<froud> merry xmaaaaaas
<froud> african greetings to everyone
* froud is off to do some labor
<sivang> froud: marry xmas!
* sivang is off to get some food
<cenerentola> does someone know the name of a web-map? i mean one of those maps, that show something's [like a surname]  concentration..
<sid77> hi
#ubuntu-doc 2005-01-05
<sid77> merry xmas
<froud> African greetings
<froud> hornbeck : ping
<froud> whats the process, does everyone document in wiki first, then how do we propose to get the wiki stuff to docbook?
<ChrisH> froud: Hi... :) I'm a bit confused about your posting. It sounded like the user's guide and the quick guide contain the same things.
<froud> To me the diff is so small
<froud> but then remember I'm new
<froud> I am looking at the docbook xml files in svn
<ChrisH> froud: No problem really. We just talked those two documents over a dozen times. That's why I wanted to know.
<froud> but seems you gys do it differently
<froud> you do it in wiki
<ChrisH> froud: The quick guide is just a directory in the current repository because nobody has yet created an own repository for the quick guide.
<froud> the wiki has most of the stuff neded for the UG
<froud> That's fine there should be only one repos for docs
<ChrisH> froud: IMHO the Wiki is a mess of documents that should be organised.
<froud> want my opinion?
<ChrisH> Sure
<froud> 1. wiki 2 docbook a mission not wanted
<froud> 2. make one file set and use docbook profiles
<froud> 3.   resuse content amap
<froud> reuse
<froud> I have a WC of userguide that is now valid and well formed
<ChrisH> [1]  Probably it's not a good idea to stuff everything into docbook that is now on the Wiki. But at least we should have some organised document that we can give out to end users.
<froud> transforms well in yelp, to xhtml/html and pdf
<ChrisH> WC?
<froud> Working Copy
<froud> The wiki need organization but will do then in the port to docbook
<froud> hey, what with svn it is now up
<froud> but
<froud> I cannot svn cat
<froud> I can svn list
<ChrisH> I'm confused. Are you pro or con moving wiki contents to docbook?
<froud> I see no trunk, tags, or branch
<froud> I think wiki is a waste of time
<froud> GDP has given you a receipe follow it
<ChrisH> At least Wiki is nearly impossible to use for large documents like user's guides, FAQ or such. You need revision control.
<froud> Do everything in docbook and transform from there
<ChrisH> I hadn't used a wiki for documentation anyway probably.
<froud> yes all work should be in svn
<froud> All major OSS projects workin in docbook under cvs or svn
<ChrisH> I'm used to that, too.
<ChrisH> In Ubuntu some things are different. ;)
<froud> not good to break a good dev method
<ChrisH> baz[aar]  instead of svn/cvs. Wiki instead of well-formed pages. But otoh Ubuntu is quite new and perhaps some of the methods work better. I don't know yet.
<froud> ChrisH, I think that it is better to work in docbook src we have many more options this way
<froud> in wiki we are limited
<ChrisH> At least we need to get going on the docbook documents. And I was just arguing because many people have been talking to screw everything that has been worked on and do it differently. Which obviously led to writers drop their pens and do nothing. And that's roughly where we are currently.
<ChrisH> Wiki is more a draft place or a place to organise. I think it's okay for that purpose.
<ChrisH> All "serious" documentation will probably be done in docbook.
<froud> Yes, but we have to port it. I don't know of any tool that has a parser capable of doing this
<ChrisH> Wiki to docbook? There is one the other way round.
<froud> drfat in docbook under svn control
<froud> what copy paste
<ChrisH> But it's pretty useless IMO. The Wiki is cluttered and unorganised. If you want to write a document regarding one topic you need to get the pieces together anyway.
<ChrisH> Wiki is okay for "MP3 does not work". But you can hardly give my mother-in-law a copy of the Wiki and tell her to be happy about it.
<froud> Ok well I'm hitting the docbook hard
<froud> My vision is to have a user and admin guide that can be printed and sold to people who what to buy it
<froud> The same sources will be used for the dist
<ChrisH> Most of the documentation (as we discussed in Mataro) will be online. Perhaps some day the Quick Guide will be printed and shipped with the CDs. But none of the documents that are written here are intended to be sold.
<ChrisH> Although I could imagine that in a year someone (outside the doc team) comes out with "Ubuntu in a Nutshell" from O'Reilly. :)
<froud> That's one side I am interested in :-0
<froud> people do buy hard copies of documents
<ChrisH> I don't think many people here intend to do it for the money. But talk to Mark. :)
<froud> ChrisH, explain to me how your svn is oorganized is there a tags, branch, trunk ?
<froud> Mark wont mind he will put the money back to the project
<ChrisH> As most writers here have neither used DocBook/XML nor Subversion before this is still straightforward. We have not tags or branches yet. And the Canonical people are "motivating" us to get the whole document into baz - where things will be handled much more differently either.
<froud> baz?
<ChrisH> [money]  As long as the document is shipped for free and interested users can buy hardcopies to sponsor the project... that's perfect.
<froud> that's wat I mean
<ChrisH> baz = bazaar. An "arch" derivative that is developed by Canonical to replace all existing repository systems.
<froud> well we can use it, but is it better than SVN
<ChrisH> I didn't like arch that much, yet. But as everything else is handled in arch/baz we probably don't have that much of a choice. ;)
<froud> yes we do
<froud> this is OSS
<ChrisH> arch versus svn is really a religious question. Even worse than Amiga versus Atari, Vi versus Emacs and Linux versus Windows.
<froud> more people use svn
<ChrisH> I'm very happy with svn. Canonical will give us a sandbox in the next days/weeks to play with it and we can decide whether we move or not.
<froud> for the writers who are not technical there are GUI's
<ChrisH> Let's be open-minded. If it's nice, let's use it. Some aspects are pretty neat.
<ChrisH> Do you know a GUI for writing DocBook/XML? conglomerate doesn't count.
<froud> I know conglomerate
<froud> I was going to be part ofthe team
<froud> but opted out
<froud> I did not like the politics
<froud> I use Oxygen XML Editor
<froud> but XXE is a good tool for those that want WYSIOO
<ChrisH> oxygen? How free is it?
<froud> It's not
<ChrisH> Bad.
<froud> but it is the best and cheapest on the market
<froud> Suports RNG
<ChrisH> People who are volunteers will hardly spend money for working for free.
<ChrisH> How much would it be?
<froud> has xslt debug
<froud> cheaper than xml spy
<ChrisH> So only half a billion euros?
<froud> emacs=psgmls
<froud>  is good :-)
<froud> No see http://www.inwords.co.za/products.html
<froud> click through from there
<froud> IMHO the best way to hack        docbook is in the source
<ChrisH> I'm doing it in the VI and it can become a little confusing.
<froud> So as i understand it Canconical will force arch. When is thi scheduled
<froud> Do the writers know arch?
<froud> is there a gui front-end?
<froud> if not then I think it will be difficult no matter how good arch is
<froud> not everyone knows to use the command line, especially writers. that's my experience. Only nuts like us
<ChrisH> It's not forced really. If we decide that it's bullshit we will screw it.
<ChrisH> Nobody knows arch yet. It's the second project of Canonical. Ubuntu and Bazaar.
<ChrisH> Look at www.canonical.com
<froud> How long before ithappens
<ChrisH> Also I assume that everyone here uses svn from the command line.
<ChrisH> Sandbox in January. No fixed schedule.
<froud> Hmmm I will install it here and checkit
<froud> Ok now I have one big patch to give
<froud> I was going to do it on a per file basis
<froud> but seeing as there are so many changes
<froud> and my patch makes userguide valid and well-formed, perhaps I should just do one big patch
<froud> what do you think?
<ChrisH> That's the largest difference in arch/baz. No single files. Everything in a directory will be committed. There is "svn add".
<ChrisH> Sure, make it valid! :)
<ChrisH> s/There is/There is *no*/
<froud> Ok so I will send one big patch
* ChrisH is off to the parents-in-law
<froud> sure c ya
<froud> sivang, shalom
<sivang> hehe
<sivang> they are not, but if we want them to host the repo, we will have to use arch
<froud> im look at arch now
<froud> I see there is a GUI for those who dont like command line
<froud> its called archway
<froud> he's the patch https://bugzilla.ubuntu.com/show_bug.cgi?id=4978
<froud> but as I understand the arch stuff wont be for a while and even then the doc team have to say yes to it
<froud> so I think we should impliment proper svn
<froud> we can always move to arch later if the people want to use it
<froud> I posted a proposal to setup svn on th emailing list
<froud> ChrisH, thinks that the wiki stuf is all a mess, need organization
<froud> I think he agrees tis better to use svn and do work in docbook
<froud> I agree, I can't see th epoint in doing in wiki and then trying toport
<froud> to port
<froud> there is no easy way to do that 
<sivang> I agree also
<froud> +1
<sivang> We should then just continue using the svn server, possibly hosted in a relaiable place,
<sivang> do work in docbook,
<sivang> and use the wiki (as I always said) to sketch padding and scribbles.
<sivang> ChrisH: you here?
<froud> umm we need to keep docbook src in svn and scribble in that source
<froud> NOT WIKI
<froud> sivang, its a waste of time
<froud> with svn we can easily see everyones changes
<froud> with wiki we cannot
<froud> with svn we can do many more things
<sivang> I meant, use the wikias an errata souce :)
<sivang> source
<froud> wiki limts us
<sivang> wiki = README.TXT , last minute, doc missed stuff :)
<froud> wiki should only hold information about the project and doc project
<sivang> nothing more then that
<froud> yes
<sivang> and we alos come up a plan to allow people to use the wiki when they wanna start contribute and don't yet wanna deal with svn, they go and start.
<froud> as you know I am new, so I am not sure if perhaps all my suggestions are just too much
<sivang> this is something we discussed longly in Mataro, the low barrier to joinig..
<sivang> basically, these are issues we all have bothered much with -
<sivang> including mataro, mako you around?
<froud> MOst projects use cvs or svn and docbbook
<sivang> this is my preference also,
<froud> the GDP project has a templat ewe can follow
<sivang> wiki should only used to proposal and last minutes and stuff and errata
<froud> agreed ++++++1
<sivang> we may want to talk to shaun about this, he is longly not satisfied with the current state of the GDP, and noted to me he would like to maybe devise some new plans
<sivang> He also doesn't like too much the GNOME doc guidelines, he thinks they need some kind of refreshment.
<froud> as I said I hope all the proposals and changes I am asking for are not going to annoy folks
<froud> Yes Shaun will help. He has much experience
<froud> but I think we are talking about the basic infrustructure more than anything here
<froud> sivang, you there?
<sivang> yes
<froud> thought I lost you
<sivang> no , I'm here although doing 100 things in parallel :)
<froud> he he know th efeeling
<froud> Anywayat patch makes the userguide files valid and well formed.
<froud> The XInclude namespace is now declared in all docs
<sivang> anywa, when making suggestion please review old threads and stuff, this is a discussion that usually comes up whenever a new person comes and wants to contrib :)
<sivang> froud: that fixes the DocBook abuse? :)
<sivang> the thing, we still don't have a valid to my tsate team infrastructure, but hopefully we would get there,
<sivang> btw has canonical not provided a nice web gui to use bazzar?
<froud> I dont think one should have to go back on threads for this stuff, point is it was talked about and nothing done. This time I hope we can do something about it
<froud> Could be, but I still think a fat client is required
<froud> I offer my services to get this right
<froud> way I understand is that writers have pretty much put down there pens because of these issues
<sivang> so to drive fears off from people who feel initimated by a "new" system :)
<sivang> what do you mean a fat clinet?
<froud> Ok lets break this one step at a time.
<sivang> sure thing
<froud> peple have stopped work because of these problems right?
<froud> not good
<froud> forget the past. let's fix it
<froud> impliment svn in secure space
<froud> impliment in accordance with standard
<froud> OSS people know how this stuff works
<froud> and for those that dont we will support
<froud> if people want arch then we can easily move to arch
<froud> but we dont know when or if we will use arch
<sivang> this also had been thought of, but we are currently a small group of contributor,s
<froud> small or not we need to collaborate effectively
<sivang> and to facilitate for all the people who would be able to inly contribute on the wiki it would take too much manpower to compenstate.
<froud> the revision management system is the hub for dev
<sivang> inly = only
<froud> I dont care if it is cvs, svn or arch
<froud> we should not come to a position where people stop writing because of decision problems
<froud> majority of projects use this system and it works
<froud> now I dont have the power to change this so who will?
<froud> sivang, I feel like I'm having a monologue here
<sivang> no I'm still her e:)
<froud> so what to do?
* sivang still reading and trying to understand :)
<sivang> ok, we need to have a relaiable place for the svn, who voulnenteers? :)
<sivang> or maybe can we have a svn reop hosted in the canonical farm?
<froud> I thought it could be at canonical. If not I can ask at TSF  if we can use edison
<sivang> who approves such stuff on TSF?
<froud> I will have to wait for Thomas Black he is my contact point
<sivang> eh right
<froud> Which ever the case, if I can get a user access to the server I can have a structured svn up and configured in 30 mins
<sivang> don't you think this should be discussed with mark also? and people who are incharge of the technical sites of ubuntu? The Technical Board :)
<sivang> ?
<sivang> or elmo for that matter.
<froud> whoever, but a decision must be made
<sivang> sure
<sivang> I agree
<froud> I cant understand why people are worried about barrier to entry
<froud> most of the people contributing to OSS know revision management and docbook
<sivang> well, this is also one of mark and other people in the projet - So I'd rather not subestimate it..
<sivang> froud: the thing is, the whole ponit with launchpad and other stuff in ubuntu is to lower the contribution to barrier by the community.
<sivang> thus, you have rosetta for transaltion, baz as the frontend to arch etc..
<froud> I dont see how bring it to a halt has done that :-)
<sivang> no ofcourse, I am not talking about the current state, which is bad.
<froud> that's fine there ar gui's to cvs and svn
<sivang> so we should :
<sivang> 1) first have a WORKING repo somewhere safe and technically able - canonica.com
<froud> +1
<sivang> 2) Make for the low technical people to use our revisiong management stools.
<froud> +1
<sivang> 3) Bring this to the CC / TB meeting for approbal.
<froud> +1
<sivang> 4) start working as hell!! :)
<froud> +1
<froud> +1 = I will help you
<sivang> ok, great and thanks :)
<sivang> btw, I know cory burger is working on understanding arch good, to write a new guide to baz so doc team could maybe switch to it.
<sivang> we should also probably talk to him about this, see what state he is currently is with the new guide maybe,.
<sivang> what do you think?
<froud> depnds on the time. as I said, we can always migrate to arch, svn I can have up in 30mins
<sivang> Why don't we start a thread on the mailing list to see what peopel thingk?
<froud> as for training
<froud> see
<sivang> froud: do you have aplace to put it already? 
<sivang> froud: I mean, a websoace accessible with an easy domain ? :)
<froud> http://svnbook.red-bean.com/
<sivang> red-bean is yours?
<froud> I can temp put it at TSF, but I would like to ask first
<froud> no red bean is not mine
<froud> its a book on svn
<sivang> ah ok,
<froud> there's your training
<froud> it's command line, but good
<sivang> ok, that should be kept in mind.
<sivang> how is the guide? newbie freidnly?
<froud> then I recomend eSvn http://esvn.umputun.com/
<froud> the guide is very freindly
<froud> eSvn is the best GUI front end IMHO
<sivang> let's start the new conributir page onb the wiki
<sivang> and put all this info there,
<froud> url
<sivang> so new people would see a streamlined way to start working with us
<sivang> ok, I will start a page there, and give you the linkg in 10 minutes.
<froud> what do you wnatto put there?
<froud> want
<sivang> The main webpage for the doc team also serves as a "welcome" page, but we should have asomething more instructable
<sivang> take a look here:
<sivang> froud: are you sure nobody from canonical sent you as a cover agent to the doc team? :)))
* sivang starts to connect the pints :)
<sivang> points
<froud> nop I am here of my own accord :-)
<froud> see this http://learnlinux.tsf.org.za/project/web-project.html
<froud> everything you need to get started with the LearnLinux project is togeher in a single place
<sid77> hi
<sivang> hey sid77  :)
<sivang> whasspu?
<froud> hi
<sid77> bloated
<sivang> why bloatd?
<froud> role me down the corridor
<sivang> ehehe
<froud> ate ourselve silly
<sivang> froud is also :)
<sid77> I can barely move under the load span (or what the right quotation is)
* sivang wished he could be at an xmas dinner
<sivang> sid77: hehehehehe
<froud> sivang, you want to have something like http://learnlinux.tsf.org.za/project/web-project.html
<sivang> oh darn I just did an upgrade, I need to log out and in my sessions,
<sivang> brbr
<sivang> brb
<froud> ok
<sid77> sivang, I'll push for having nethack into ubuntu ;) (jk)
<sivang> (can't open the broswer)
<sivang> sid77: nethack?
<sivang> hehe
<sivang> it's a game right?
<sivang> Overhead dungeon-crawler game (dummy package)
<sid77> ?what are we joking about?
<sivang> do apt-cache show nethack
<sid77> sivang, yeah, but it is only in universe (iirc)
<sivang> eh, then we should have it in main!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!11
<sivang> MOUHHAHAHA
<sivang> :)
<sivang> anyway, I'm out and in in a second.
<sivang> see ya all
<froud> yo people have a low concerntration span today
<sid77> bye
<sivang> froud: a sec :)
<sivang> froud: back
<froud> sivang, gee that was a long sec
<sivang> froud: yeah i know :( sorry , I had a rather instable electric setup here..
<sivang> froud: that is I have..
<sivang> plus I have some irc client slowdownd and I tried to check some other servers but this apparently seems the best at the moment.
<froud> b back in 5 gotta take my daughters to bed
<sivang> froud: no prob, sorry about the delay
<sivang> froud: take your time
<froud> wheew OK
<froud> where were we
<froud> ?
<sivang> yes
<sivang> here, just reading over the wiki wishlist
<sivang> which is _long_
<sivang> :)
<sivang> I states some stepa that we can take to make things better,
<sivang> I agreed with  you that there is a current problem with the way we do stuff, and don;t :)
<sivang> and that everything should be first discussed over the mailing list - so we could get the oppinion of other doc team memebrs which are not always on irc,
<sivang> and see how we vcan get working in the next weel - we might want to bring the technical issue if the reporistiry to the technical board agenda,
<sivang> see how fast we can get a server in canonica's space.
<froud> sure, I think it always wise to ask. The community is strong, very strong
<sivang> yes ofcourse. It's just that there has already been talks about canonical providing the space for the server,
<sivang> so we just need to go and ask
<froud> btw why is stuff not there from the onset?
<froud> seems logical
<sivang> I also said that we should maybe investigate how we _can_ use baz to do doc wrok,
<froud> revision management
<sivang> that way probably easing off the adoption of the doc repo by canonical.
<sivang> why it's not there?
<sivang> Good qustion.
<sivang> Maybe it is because still, the project is yet very young, and else I don't know.
<froud> I am concerned about arch
<sivang> in what way?
<froud> seems people (writers) don't know it
<sivang> do you?
<froud> it looks much the same as most rms
<froud> a few things different
<froud> but that is ok with me
<froud> I would think that SVN is a better choice
<froud> from what I can see so far
<froud> also we have already the training thanks to red-bean
<froud> no need to labor
<froud> unless canonical want the ubuntu doc team to document bazaar
<froud> in which case it will make a great test case
<sivang> I think they do, and I think that corey burger is on to it, thought I havn't been able to talk to him over the last couple of days though.
<froud> Ok I have a person who I can approach in canonical. should I approach with our suggestions?
<sivang> yes, who is he btw? Black?
<froud> no a person at cononical not TSF
<froud> btw do we have a doc team lead?
<sivang> would you mind telling me who is he?
<froud> she
<sivang> lousie? jabe?
<sivang> jane?
* froud scracthes through email
<sivang> ah ok, if It's louise I think she already left canonical, but we might want to talk to elmo about this.
<sivang> (James Troup) I think he's incharge of all the server farm and other stuff
<froud> yes Jane Silber
<sivang> regarding the lead thing, it was long ago agreed that we would do better without a lead,
<froud> always good to have a lead :-)
<sivang> as this is a community project and the actual administrative part of the project already gets handled by the secretary which is enrico zini
<sivang> so we have a person to complain to, and who takes care of us wrt to wiki gardnering and etc.
<froud> ok so enrico, if you're listening, we need action
<sivang> let's see if he online
<sivang> no he not :(
<sivang> well, we should start posting stuff to the mailing list, what do you think?
<sivang> have you already maybe?
<froud> I did
<sivang> ah ok, lemme see.
<froud> is there a proposal in the archive on how to move wiki to docbook?
<froud> I dont see one
<sivang> try and look for the doc team bof on the conf wiki
<froud> huh?
<sivang> we have discussed it over in Mataro, lemme check
<froud> what is Mataro
<sivang> where we had the ubuntu conference.
<sivang> 2 weeks ago approx.
<sivang> in spain
<froud> ah b 4 my time :-)
<sivang> https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/Conference
<sivang> https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/DocumentationTeamBOF
<sivang> froud: what do you mena b 4 your time?
<froud> 4 weeks ago
<froud> I just got here three days ago
<froud> :-)
<froud> OK I will put forward a request to Jane and outline our thinking. I see that John Hornbeck is +1 for the SVN proposal and if you reply that will be two people
<sivang> froud: still reading backlog email, what do ChrisH thinkg?
<sivang> his oppinion is highly important
<froud> As far as I can see ChrisH is also +1, although he is not sure casue of the arch story. He agrees with the approach I have proposed. i.o.w work in docbook under revision repos.
<froud> cause
<froud> basics about project and getting involved in kiki
<froud> wiki
<froud> Hopefully he will also vote on the mailing list
<sivang> ok, before you go and do anything , lemme finisht hte mailing list backlog :)
<froud> Hey I just got a draft copy of Eric Raymonds new book "The Art of Unix Programming"
<froud> cool stuff
<froud> amazing what you can find in an inbox when you actually look at it
<froud> Ok, hey I'm gonna go have a shower. Maybe see ya later. If I look at the screen anymore I'm bound to start bleeding from the eyes.
<sivang> froud: god, go and have some rest :)
<froud> sivang, yala carata kol ha email shel cha
<froud> sivang, tov chabibi tegid ken or lo al ha svn sipur, al ha mail-list, ad mahar l'hit
<sivang> froud: hehe
<sivang> froud: is this the mail about the FAQ proposal?
<sivang> froud: here?
<cenerentola> what?
<sivang> cenerentola: no nothing :)
#ubuntu-doc 2005-01-06
<mako> sivang: hey there.. i'm here now.. just arrived home
<sivang> mako: ah ok, when you finish reading -doc postingon the mailing list, tell me :)
<sivang> mako: we have been approached by a new buddy (nick:froud) few days ago, about somet stuff regarding the repo and else,
<sivang> see the ml then we'll taklk :)
<sivang> welcome home, btw :)
<sivang> Wheller is his last name, can't recall the first :)
<sivang> mako: anyway, on thing very importan which can be brought before you read over the channel backlog or ml, is that we must have a canonical hosted doc repo :)
<sivang> quick!
<sivang> mako: as hornbeck is on vacation for xmas in vegas, the svn repo is practically down for all work, something very bad and disappointing for all our contributors :(
<sivang> mako: we need the repo (be it svn/baz/arch) hosted inhouse canonical, and with soem techincally able care given to it.
<sivang> mako: we need to start treating the UDP as a serious thing or else nothing will happen..
<mako> sivang: ok. that makes seneses
<mako> sivang: the issue here is that it requires a machine with substantially different access control than anything we have currently
<mako> sivang: i can push for it and i think it can happen but it's going to require some new rules.. which is always difficult
<sivang> mako: ok, so if we switch to baz it's no hassle?
<sivang> mako: I mean, we already have it part of launchpad 
<sivang> mako: is the orig repo being on svn off issue to this?
<mako> i guess i don't completely understand..
<sivang> mako: let's take this one step at the time :)
<sivang> mako: btw, would you prefer discussing this tommrowo?
<mako> the choice of the version control system should not affect the access control issues
<mako> that might be good.. i've been up for quite a while :)
<sivang> yes, I figured so,
<sivang> :)
<sivang> so, lemme know when it will be more comfortable for you to discuss this,
<sivang> and another thing I'm concenred about is -
<sivang> each time a new person shows up and wants t "join" the doc team,
<sivang> the all too old and already "agreed" upon stuff comes back :)
<sivang> like, let's make a leader,
<sivang> let's work like that,
<sivang> or this,
<sivang> I'd like to maybe think up with somethin to clear this up.
<sivang> :) when you are less tired ofcourse :L)
<sivang> I guess I am asking how do I say a new guy "This is waht we decided, this is how it is _going_ to be"
<sivang> :)
<sivang> mako: still there?
<mako> sivang: yeah
<mako> i think a docteam FAQ might be good
<mako> that's how we deal with the problem in the larger ubuntu project
<sivang> mako: I'm interested to know what sorts of access issues setting up a server has, if we use the baz web interface it should solve them all - isn't that what baz is supposed to do?
<sivang> mako: but if you're way tired, let's leave it for now and talk again some other time that you are online and less tired :)
<mako> sivang: the web interface doesn't help you write to it
<sivang> mako: so what does it do?
<mako> well, perhaps with webdav you can.. i'm not familiar with the access control issues
<sivang> mako: I see. Well, this is something we can maybe bring to the TB for discussion?
<mako> but i know that so far, the way it's handled with with accounts on the machine, with a single gpg keyring and an email interface, or something similar
<mako> this isn't a technical board issues
<sivang> mako: you mean commiting stuff using en email interface?
<mako> this is a canonical machine administration issue
<sivang> I am not sure I understadn that fully.
<mako> sivang: it's complex.. too complex for what we want
<mako> we can pick this up soon.. i gotta eat :)
<mako> and then crash in all likelihood
<sivang> ok
<sivang> it's just the docteam seems a very little issue from the current point of view,
<sivang> and well, it may be verywell so, we just need to know where are we standing.
<sivang> I'm ok with canonical/ubuntu/anybody saying, let's release the docs issue altogether, leave it proper for the community at large and say we don't even really need a specialized ubuntu doc team..
* sivang may be talking out of plain frustration. No offense :)
<sivang> I just won't approach new members any more...It's a bit embarresing telling them "Hmm, the doc repo is down today - could you ping me again in a week?" :)
<sivang> this looks not good, from the new contributors point of view..anyway, go to eat.
<sivang> I'm sorry :)
<sivang> for all my complains
<sivang> *comlaints
<sivang> hey enrico 
<sivang> :)
<sivang> back again?
<enrico> Hello!
<enrico> Lots of activity for christmas!
<mako> enrico: merry xmas :)
<sivang> mako: so you've read all my complaints? :)
<mako> sivang: yes
<mako> no, i understand that it is frustring in regards to the repo
<mako> we'll work out a solution to that
<mako> man.. it's not even 930pm and i'm *exhausted*
<mako> jet lag...
<sivang> ok, I hope  this will happen fast not like the last time it was said that it's being worked on.
<enrico> Hello.  What are you guys talking about?
<enrico> Could you please update me?
<enrico> (I just wake up, and its sunday...)
<enrico> s/wake/woke/
<sivang> enrico: eh the good life :)
<mako> enrico: sivang is frusterated because he thinks docteam work is paralized by the current state of hornbeck and his repository
<sivang> enrico: Well, the last new guy that approached the docteam (you've talked with him regarding the spcial branch you made for him of the repo) 
<enrico> oh, but hornbeck is back again now, and the repo works
<sivang> enrico: it is?
* sivang checks
<mako> enrico: although the criticism seems to be more with what sivan sees as the attitude that canonical is taking toward thehe doc team
<mako> enrico: not putting resources etc to get a repository for members, etc
<enrico> sivang: yes, just checked.  Have you read the list?  There was a snow storm and Hornbeck's house had a long blackout that exausted the UPS and so the machine never went up
<mako> i think you guys need a distributed revision control system
* enrico larts mako
<enrico> But I posted in the list about that, too: Elmo understood that we didn't need the migration because we wanted to go to baz anyway.  However, 
<sivang> enrico: maybe we can make this repo more sustainable in means of uptime?
<enrico> noone told him about the results of the docteam BOF
<enrico> So I did tell him
<enrico> He's happy with the migration, but he's in vacation, so it won't happen until next year
<sivang> so should I start learning baz?
<mako> baz is a moving target
<enrico> ehi, people, we have a working repo now, Hornbeck is at home
<sivang> enrico: until next time he goes on vacation?
<mako> that sounds like a short term and a long term plan
<enrico> The repo is set for migration as soon as Elmo gets back to work
<mako> cool
<mako> enrico: how is access control going to be done?
<enrico> mako: I would imagine access via DAV and people's accounts on an htpasswd, but that'll probably be negotiated with Elmo
<mako> enrico: i was telling sivan that this was the only thing i was not sure about..but because it will be different than the way it being done in other places, it will need to be worked out
<sivang> mako: ok, I am now relaxed :)
<mako> but that said, even if it were  ea matter of posting changesets to a list and having a couple people merging contributed changesets in, it would be a huge plus
<enrico> I've been posting about this recently... how come people don't read my mails?
* enrico looks for a link
<mako> enrico: btw, i played with svk some more.. it a great idea :)
<sivang> enrico: I've read all the -doc postings, didn't see your yet.
<enrico> mako: eh.  At the moment, I'd suggest to people who can handle a bit more complexity to try svk.  However, I'm reluctant to suggest it in a mail to the list, as everyone's pretty sick of seeing names of revision control systems popping around
<enrico> for Sean, what I did was a local branch in my svk mirror: as soon as he posts his patches, I can integrate them in his branch and try a smerge
<enrico> that's neat, imo
* mako nods
<enrico> sivang: http://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-doc/2004-December/000767.html (look for the word "elmo")
<enrico> maybe my messages are too long
<mako> i have that problem
<mako> someone gave me a suggestion
<mako> (1) write the message (2) write a summary of the message (3) throw away everything except the summary
<mako> (plus any essential details)
<sivang> enrico: noted
<sivang> ok, so I will be waiting for after new years :)
<sivang> night all !
<enrico> mako: oh, nice idea :)
<enrico> sivang: night!
<sivang> (4:35am here)
* sivang takes a mental note - read the email more carefully
<enrico> sivang: :)
* mako just fell asleep at the computer
<mako> i'm going to take the hint
<mako> good nigth guys
<sivang> night mako
<enrico> froud: around?
<[froud] > African greetings
<[froud] > mako,  ping
* [froud]  is going to the zoo for the best part of today. Will be back later
<froud> African greetings
<froud> enrico, you tuned?
<enrico> froud: kind of
<enrico> I'm very tired
<froud> :-)
<froud> need another holiday
<froud> well, are you up to sorting the svn
<froud> warning: participation in open source projects can lead to sleep deprivation
<froud> guess not
* froud goes of to swim
<enrico> have a nice swim!  We can do it tomorrow
<froud> ubuntulog help
<froud> guess its not a bot?
* froud is away: Off doing something else
* froud is back (gone 00:54:18)
* froud is away: Off doing something else
<sivang> hel all
<sivang> hey
<sivang> am back for a while
#ubuntu-doc 2005-01-07
<hornbeck> hello
<sivang> hey hornbeck , long time :)
<sivang> froud: ping
<sivang> anybody awake?
<hornbeck> I am around
<sivang> hornbeck: how was vegas?
<sivang> :)
<hornbeck> vegas was nice
<hornbeck> glad to be home
<hornbeck> how are things for you?
<sivang> fine I guess, working alot on the country team stuff, devel, and doc team :)
<hornbeck> sounds like alot
<hornbeck> I wish I had time for Ubuntu stuff right now
<hornbeck> I was busy with work, went on vacation(where I worked alot), now I am back and working alot again
<hornbeck> well I am going back to programming now
<hornbeck> have fun
<sivang> what are you programming btw?
<hornbeck> sivang: you still around?
<enrico> Hello!
<ChrisH> enrico: Up early today? ;)
<enrico> ChrisH: 14:18 here :)
* enrico warns
* enrico super warns
<enrico> I'm going to do the merge of froud's patches into the svn repository
<enrico> Then, I'm going to move everything in the repo inside trunk, and create branch and tags
<enrico> I said I'd warn on IRC before doing it
<enrico> I assume that most of the people are sleeping now anyway
<enrico> ChrisH: BTW, what are you doing awake?~
* enrico loads the smerge gun
* enrico shoots
<enrico> didn't quite work
<enrico> Redoing with plain svn
<enrico> DONE
<ChrisH> enrico: Marco was waking up at 4:50 a.m. :(
<ChrisH> enrico: And I couldn't sleep anyway since my dad is in hospital since christmas. Everything is fucked up atm.
<ChrisH> Looks like I have to learn subversion from scratch if I look at all that trunk, head, tag, branch, patch, main stuff.
<ChrisH> What about tags/? Will those snapshots be taken automatically? Or am I supposed to do anything in there?
<ChrisH> branches/ are probably alternatives that could be "merged" somehow if we desire, right?
* froud is back (gone 11:43:55)
<froud> African greetings
<froud> African greetings, I'm back had read errors
<froud> Anyone awake
<ChrisH> Only physically...
<froud> In spriit is good
<froud> ChrisH, see my message to the list for help on SVN
<froud> I want to start porting wki to docbook, any idea how to do this
<ChrisH> froud: Ah, thanks for the linx.
* enrico lands back here
<froud> no worries
<ChrisH> froud: I only used to run svn without tags and branches because they have scared me always since CVS. :)
<froud> :-) much easier in svn
<enrico> ChrisH: oh, with svn is really easy
<ChrisH> froud: I once started a branch in a project (CVS) and no guru could get it merged.
<enrico> they're just directories
<froud> see my links in the mail list
<froud> all writers can get training
<ChrisH> The SVN documentation is really very good. I just didn't read everything but only the parts I needed so far. :)
<froud> enrico, I have written to Jane at Canonical to get things moving re hosting
<ChrisH> froud: Had a chance to eval arch/baz?
<froud> ChrisH, try eSvn it makes life sooooo much easier
<froud> yes
<froud> not that difficult
<ChrisH> froud: Better?
<froud> yes and no
<froud> there are +'s and -'s
<enrico> froud: oh, ok.  Don't stress them too much, though: I'm taking care of that, and maybe they would get bored of having too many requests
<froud> I dont think it will be that hard to get people to port to it
<enrico> froud: nothing could be done now as James, the admin of the farm, will be in vacation until the 2nd of January
<froud> enrico, my experience is to push and things will happen
<enrico> After the 2nd of January, I'll be back on track
<froud> sure no worries
<froud> we have a working svn now
<enrico> froud: your experience has never crossed "pushing James" :)
<froud> thanks to you
<froud> :-)
<enrico> Ehi, no problem: John brought it back online, and I just did the reorganization you proposed
<froud> James is cool he gets stuff done if there is a real case for it
<froud> Did you take a look at the changes I made
<ChrisH> Yeah... "pushing" and "James" are not really keywords that fit together. :)
<ChrisH> froud: There is a real case in setting up my DD account after a one-year-waiting-period for him...
<froud> :-) what's the case for it. Is it holding you back on the documents
<enrico> although for Canonical related things he is not really so bad
<froud> I like james
<froud> Any suggestions on how to proceed with porting wiki to docbook
<ChrisH> froud: Which parts do you suggest to move?
<froud> WHat stuff do you suggest
<froud> I have only made the userguide valid and well-formed
<froud> the userguide is now ready for working in
<ChrisH> I'm just not sure how much really deserves to be moved to docbook.
<froud> What do you mean?
<ChrisH> It probably does not make sense if we move every piece of information (many wiki pages just consist of a single sentence) into docbook.
<froud> ChrisH, the wiki should only contain stuff about the doc project, how to contribute, where to get source and proposals under consideration, and work to be done
<froud> all other stuff        should be in docbook
<froud> wiki is limiting
<froud> hard to revision control
<enrico> uhm, wait a sec
<ChrisH> We already discussed that matter on the mailing list some time ago. Just too early to remember what the result was. :)
<enrico> The current consensus for the wiki is to make it the platform to which people can dump information with the smallest possible technical barrier
<froud> I propose we work like the GNOME DP
<froud> and how to reuce the load in porting to docbook
<froud> reduce
<froud> wki then db increases overhead
<froud> do the people here know docbook?
<enrico> froud: how does the Gnome DP work?
<froud> Everything in svn in docbook
<enrico> froud: all the people in the docteam know DocBook, however there's not only the docteam contributing to the Wiki
<ChrisH> Most of the users that use the Wiki have probably not even heard of DocBook yet.
<enrico> So, we can affort to have a restricted group of people working on DocBook things, but we can't afford to cut the rest out
<ChrisH> froud: Just remember that most people expect well-formed documents but are not really willing to write some. So it's the job of the Doc Team to get together the bits and pieces and paste everything into meaningful documents.
<froud> Perhaps we can port what there is, then leave a piece where people can dump into wiki and then we will port it asap
<ChrisH> However the task is getting more confusing every day since new people have new ideas, other documents appear that already have done things that it feels like we are redoing everything...
<froud> sure chaos
<froud> that's why you need everything in docbook
<ChrisH> The Wiki will always be a "draft dump". There is not enough manpower to move everything.
<froud> I will decribe the process
<froud> b 4 working on something a writer requests to the list
<enrico> froud: I'm a bit scared
<ChrisH> froud: Just look at the recent posts. We have the Newbie guide, the huge user's guide that has been copied together... then our documents.
* ChrisH is severely scared
<froud> enrico, ChrisH, no need to be 
<froud> we just need a plan
<enrico> We've been having so many changes in process, that the last consensus was that no change in process should happen until the moment the first document gets finished
<froud> OK so sections that are finished, we can port them and make them non edit in wiki
<enrico> So, it's probably better to postpone new plans to the next planning phase
<ChrisH> froud: Problem is: hardly anything has been accomplished so far. Having big plans is nice... but writers are starting to get desperate because plans tend to get killed every week.
<enrico> Current plan is:
<enrico> deadline: Hoary
<enrico> what's needed: quick guide, "About Ubuntu"
<froud> enrico, remind me what is the deadline for Hoary
<enrico> froud: april
<froud> Geeze that is plenty of time
<enrico> froud: a bit earlier to allow for translators
<ChrisH> froud: It would be really nice if we could get everybody to work on the DocBook documents. But currently there are mostly people that do the documents "for themselves". So we need a plan that we can handle inside the doc team for now. And we should really try to get everything to sit on the same table.
<froud> No translator will work in tandem
<enrico> froud: yes, but we decided to take it easy since the group hasn't produced a single finished document yet :)
<enrico> "About Ubuntu" is the page that describes Ubuntu when someone fires up Firefox or Yelp
<ChrisH> Which is not really surprising...
<enrico> "QuickGuide" is a 2-page-per-app-with-screenshots intro to all the main applications in Hoary
<froud> We need focus, I am prepared to help
<ChrisH> enrico: Screenshots? I thought we dumped that thought? :)
<enrico> ChrisH: oh, did we?  I lost that, then
<enrico> ChrisH: when has that been discussed?
<froud> ChrisH, they can be used, but In HTML they will not show unless needed
<ChrisH> enrico: I remember we said it's too bad to have english screenshots in a latvian documentation. And the translators can not take new screenshots.
<enrico> ChrisH: how annoying :(
<froud> The standard is to reduce the number of screen shots to a minimal
<ChrisH> enrico: I may be wrong though.
<ChrisH> enrico: Translators have probably other things to do then redo screenshots.
<ChrisH> enrico: And look at Hoary currently: since Mataro the menu layout has been changed three times!
<froud> OK we are going in square circles
<froud> ChrisH, change is a good thing
<ChrisH> froud: I don't fear change.
<ChrisH> froud: I just hate doing things one way and then throwing it away.
<froud> The problem is themethods being used
<froud> the methods
<froud> I propose using modular docbook and then creating a driver near the end
<froud> this way we can work and have some degree of abstraction from the changes
<froud> There are a number of methods we can adopt
<froud> 1
<froud> modular
<froud> 2
<froud> reuse
<froud> 3 entities
<froud> 4
<ChrisH> What do you mean by "modular"? Are we writing every piece of information and then include from different xml files?
<froud> collaboration
<froud> yes
<froud> this is correct so no big change
<enrico> froud: uhm...
<ChrisH> But the different documents have different focuses.
<froud> 5 profiling
<ChrisH> An explanation of the "user management" function in one document does not fit into another document at all.
<froud> profiling manages that)
<enrico> froud: I really suggest you put up a proposal in a Wiki page so that everyone can see it, then we stick to the current consensus until the first document is finished
<enrico> froud: else, there is no reasons in having consensuses, if they keep changing all the time
<froud> enrico, it is a good idea, but can I do it on email
<enrico> froud: this is the reason why people are so upset by changes recently, so I'd like to keep this one steady
<froud> enrico, do you agree to adopt GDP process and procedure?
<froud> as a base we can ehnace for our own purposes
<enrico> froud: sure, go on with mail.  Just please make it clear that you propose that for *after* the first document is finished, to avoid people to run away screaming 
<ChrisH> froud: It's not that your ideas are bad somehow. You are just rushing a bit too much. There is no professional doc team with 10 years of repository experience. And writers are confused time and again. :)
* ChrisH runs away screaming
<froud> Oh so ltes split the team
<froud> lets
<ChrisH> Yeah, right. :)
<froud> one group on wiki
<froud> another on docbook
<ChrisH> Let's split four people into two times two. :)
<froud> does that inlcude me
<froud> I am 2 people :-)
<ChrisH> We are about 6-8 people IIRC.
<enrico> froud: GDP is surely something we should keep looking at.  However, we're not a similar team, at least in size: we're few, so we may very well go with something more informal
<froud> enrico, the process also works on smaller projects
<froud> I think we lose the power of others in the community
<froud> many people know the docbook route
<froud> it's tried and testes
<froud> tested
<froud> it works
<froud> yet I understand what the problem is
<froud> so I propose a middle route
<froud> is it possible to id things done and finished in wiki
<froud> if yes, I will port them
<froud> they will be made read only in wiki
<froud> all new work will move be done in docbook
<froud> thus we have a handover
<froud> no stop in the work
<froud> those who know dcbook will use it
<froud> those that dont will use wiki
<froud> at some point we will have everything in docbook
<froud> by then people will have had enough time to get familiar with docbook
<enrico> froud: no, really, listen to me a sec
<enrico> the wiki has to remain
* ChrisH ties froud to a chair
<enrico> the wiki is to allow anyone from the ubuntu-user list to dump things for the others
<enrico> no replacing the wiki at all
<enrico> the docteam is a different beast
<enrico> the docteam handles svn and docbook
<ChrisH> Our job is mainly to produce readable output for the end-users who are not willing to look up things in the Wiki. They need something they could even print out.
<froud> enrico, the eventual aim is to replace the documents in wiki, I said we should keep wiki as a dump for people who are not technical
<froud> we are agreed
<enrico> froud: however, the documents in the docteam are not necessarily a docbook version of the wiki: they have aims and targets
<enrico> So, not necessarily everything from the wiki fits in the repository
<ChrisH> froud: Why don't we just leave the wiki like it is and perhaps just tidy up some things. And otoh have a well-formed readable well-maintained document that we ship with Hoary?
<froud> OK
<enrico> The wiki is good for taking material, but just when it makes sense for the currently edited documents
<froud> OK but current documents are empty
<ChrisH> froud: Guess why. :)
<froud> everything sits in wiki
<froud> why
<enrico> froud: almost empty, yes.  That's because most people proposed process changes instead of writing some contents into them
<ChrisH> froud: Because whenever people started to write something the concepts have been moved around.
<enrico> And that's why we decided to take a break with process changes and just focus on writing
<froud> OK I am focused on one thing only
<froud> I want a book with Hoary
<froud> that's my goal
<enrico> QuickGuide
<enrico> that's the easy target
<froud> I hope it is the teams to
<enrico> User's Guide is the less easy target
<froud> OK qg
<froud> actually to me its the same thing
<enrico> froud: I'm looking up for a better description of the quick guide
<enrico> froud: hang on a sec
<froud> enrico, not in label (name)
<froud> let me explain
<froud> The quick guide should be derived from selected sources already inthe user guide
<enrico> froud: wait.  
<enrico> froud: listen to me
<enrico> froud: the quick guide has been designed during the docteam meeting at the conf
<enrico> froud: I'm looking up the mail that describes it
<froud> yes that is fine I am not proposong any change to it
<ChrisH> froud: The quick guide is something *completely* different than the user's guide.
<froud> enrico, ChrisH, I have a way to kill 2 birds with one stone
<froud> belive me I am not sitting here burning my fingers without having given this some thought :-)
<froud> bare with me
<froud> I know I am pushing hard
<froud> it is difficult to convey these things on irc
<enrico> froud: http://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-doc/2004-December/000736.html
<froud> but I wantto discuss before I submit a proposal to the list
<enrico> Please read that mail (although it's not on the Quick Guide)
<froud> Ok, I just read it
<froud> it does not change what I am saying
<froud> think technical
<froud> dont think in terms of books etc
<froud> think XML
<froud> There is an amount of overlap between all books
<froud> they all are centered on the same subject
<froud> ubuntu
<froud> agreed
<froud> ?
<ChrisH> Nope.
<enrico> They all talk about Ubuntu, yes, and they will probably overlap in the "What is the meaning of Ubuntu" part, but not in much more
<froud> Ok
<froud> I see something different
<froud> hold let me show you an example of a profile
<ChrisH> Yep.
<enrico> froud: ..we..already..have..a..damn..idea..on..the..contents..of..those..books..
<ChrisH> Wait... I'll paste that into the channel. :)
<enrico> However, that said, please go on
<ChrisH> Good we have the irclog.
<ChrisH> I'll send Mark a link to our conversation. That will get us all fired. :)
<froud> <chapter id="introduction" condition="qg,ug">
<froud> qg - quick guide
<froud> ug = user guide
<froud> the chapter introduction is marked for inclusion in the ug and qg
<froud> take ug out and it will only be inlcuded in the qg
<froud> This example for images
<froud> an html and pdf file for each target
<froud> <mediaobject condition="html">
<froud> 				<imageobject>
<froud> 					<imagedata fileref="images/evolution.png" format="PNG"/>
<froud> 				</imageobject>
<froud> 			</mediaobject>
<froud> 			<mediaobject condition="fo;short">
<froud> 				<imageobject>
<froud> 					<imagedata depth="8cm" fileref="images/evolution.tif" format="TIFF" scalefit="1"/>
<froud> 				</imageobject>
<froud> 			</mediaobject>
<froud> note
<froud> <mediaobject condition="fo;short">
<froud> fo = xsl:fo
<froud> short = short version of a book
<froud> end
<froud> I can have multiple books in a single set of files
<froud> I can derive each book in multiple formats from those files
<froud> Theefectis that all books are worked at the same time
<froud> the dev cycle is reduced
<froud> you can put priority on any book you like
<froud> end
* froud shuts up :-)
<enrico> I see
<enrico> I don't think we have a need for that now
<enrico> But it's worth saving the idea
<enrico> Might be useful for later on, when the set of documents we manage will be more complex
<enrico> I suggest you wrap that up in a proposal and add it to https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/DocumentationTeamWishList
<enrico> After the first document finally gets finished, we can go through that list and take the good ideas to improve our way of doing things
<enrico> Before that, we should just do things, so that we can see if and how our way of doing things actually works, and where it needs to be changed
<froud> Ok
<froud> so how do we know what can go into docbook and what cannot
* froud is focused on putting stuff into docbook, will not add to the confusion on wiki
<froud> are there sections that can move to docbook?
<froud> enrico, what we do in docbook has little baring on what's happening in wiki, right
<froud> I see a few nice sections on wiki that IMHO are ready to be used
<enrico> Something under http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/ApplicationHowTos can probably be recycled for the QuickGuide, but paying lots of attention at the change in nature
<enrico> Those are Howtos, the Quick Guide is a short intro
<enrico> To give you an example of the Quick Guide, take the "wget" manpage: you want to download an entire website, and someone tells you to use wget, right?
<froud> Ok, that's good I will make quick guide xml valid and well-formed
<enrico> then you do "man wget" and you see all sort of options.  You get to the end of the manpage, and you still don't know how to download a website, although you know tons of ways to tweak the process
<froud> yes I know wget :-)
<froud> so you are saying that the howtos can be ported?
<enrico> If the quick guide had 2 pages on wget, it would say: "Wget is the tool to download websites.  To download a full website with wget, use wget --no-parent -l0 -r <website>.  If you want to browse it locally, add "-k"
<froud> ok
<enrico> This is the idea.  Every howto can be mined for useful information, but the howtos are usually not laid out in that way
<enrico> So, probably few of them can be ported as they are.  But they can indeed be used for inspiration
<froud> yes, they are designed for the mmore technical :-)
<froud> man pages I mean
<froud> Ok next question
<froud> how to get the wiki sources in one go so I can labor :-)
<enrico> ALL of the wiki?  Uhm... dunno if that is at all possible :(
<froud> Hope you understand, the documents on this url are individual files do I have to manually copy paste
<enrico> Yes, I understand what you mean.
<froud> once I have the files I will have to find a parser that can help me in transforming this stuff to xml
<enrico> Probably, the best option is to just start writing, keeping related wiki pages on one side just for referencing and inspiration
<froud> writing? It's already written I preffer to automate a port and then edit
<enrico> You'll probably find one or two wiki pages that are really ok without almost rewriting them, so it'll probably be faster to go on and write
<froud> Im missing something
<froud> you want to hack out all the stuff and have just small snippets left
<froud> yo, no wonder nothing is finished :-)
<froud> How do you propose to make short http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/SSHHowto
<enrico> uhm... what many people are probably missing is that the main goal of the team is writing, not programming :(
* enrico loads ssh howto
<froud> fine but somebody must do the programming
<ChrisH> What is there to be programmed?
<froud> The docbook application :-)
<enrico> froud: we don't necessarily need programming at all: we're writing documentation, after all :)
<ChrisH> Doing the framework and Makefiles can be done as we go.
<froud> Docbook is an XML application
* ChrisH dreams of having all available documentation (from the chinese guy... can't remember the name) into a single document
<froud> its not trivial to do it right, otherwise everyone woul dbe doing it
<ChrisH> froud: You probably would like to screw DocBook/XML and write an own UbuntuBook/XML, right? :)
<froud> no
<froud> Docbook is the standard for OSS
<enrico> Well, our idea is to just take DocBook as it is and put contents between the <para></para>
<froud> the community knows docbook
<enrico> Someone else is taking care of improving DocBook for us right now as we speak, and we don't want to interfere :)
<ChrisH> DocBook is as much standard for OSS as Microsoft Word is for letters.
<froud> can I have visability into this
<ChrisH> de-facto... but still people are free to use what they like
<froud> seems everyone is doing something but but there is little or no visability. Contrary to OSS
<enrico> froud: what do you intend for visibility here?
<froud> you say somebody is doing something on docbook where can I see it
<enrico> froud: in the DocBook developers websites :)
<froud> enrico how did you apply my patch. there are files missing
<froud> global.ent and xinclude.mod
<froud> these files are dependancies for the valid docs
<enrico> I'll check 
<froud> they should be in /
<enrico> froud: I forgot to svn add them after applying the patch: I've just committed them in
<enrico> do an svn update and you'll find them
<froud> Ok thanks
* froud is away: Off doing something else
* froud is back (gone 00:12:32)
* ChrisH is still here (just so that everyone knows)
<enrico> Hello Cturtle!
<froud> enrico, the about section of the user guide and quick guide are going to be the same right?
<enrico> Uh, not necessarily.  I imagine that the Quick Guide one will be much shorter
<froud> They have the same files and outlines at present, at least in the xml
<enrico> However, for the user's guide things you should ask Hornbeck, and for the quick guide things you should ask plovs
<enrico> Yes, they have the same files because the quickguide has been started as a fork of the user's guide.  but the contents are not going to be the same
<froud> ok I will leave it as is
<sivang> I'm here for a while, 'sup people?
* enrico goes making sushi
<enrico> Then it's dinnertime
<froud> sivang, shalom
<enrico> See you later!
<sivang> froud: Boker tov froud  :)
<sivang> I am heading towards the kitchen to grab something to eat, be back later..
<froud> Hmm all this talk about food is making me hungry
<sivang> back :)
<froud> It's hot I think I will have a swim after lunch 
<ChrisH> sivang: reshalom
<ChrisH> I've just been to our cantina. No longer hungry. :(
* froud sinks teeth into turkey sandwhich
<sivang> ChrisH: how's your dad?
<sivang> I was terribly upset to hear what you told me last night..I hope he's ok now
<ChrisH> sivang: No news yet. I hope the doctors tell soemthing useful today.
<ChrisH> sivang: Well... he can't feel half of his body. I wonder why the hospital staff waited until today. Idiots.
<sid77> hi
<sivang> ChrisH: I just recently was shocked to find out, that doctors are not what I depicted when I was a child...
<sivang> ChrisH: the basically don't know shit, and can only probe with trial and error , recalling all the tests I've done and still feeling bad, they say "dunno"
<sivang> ChrisH: at this advnaced times when you have network packaets flowing on the airwaves you would think that they something with all this dvanced gear they have, but nada.
* froud is away: Off doing something else
<enrico_dinner> sivang: in these advanced times with network packets flowing, programmers still fix bugs by trial and errors as well, and they end up in saying "dunno" :(
<sivang> enrico_dinner: hmm right...so guss dox should be no exception..:-(
<enrico_dinner> that's also what physics do
<enrico_out> going out.  see you later
<sivang> laterz
* froud is back (gone 00:53:06)
<froud> enrico_out, kawabunga!!! when you get back please apply my patches for bugs 5008 [https://bugzilla.ubuntu.com/show_bug.cgi?id=5008]  and 5012 [https://bugzilla.ubuntu.com/show_bug.cgi?id=5012] . Thanks
<sivang> froud: yo
<sivang> froud: There is some problem with the user guide,
<hornbeck> sivang: morning
<sivang> it won't open in yelp
<sivang> hornbeck: hey john, 'sup buddy?
<hornbeck> working
<sivang> froud:    <revnumber>&userguide-rev;</revnumber>
<sivang>                                           ^
<sivang> /home/pooh/devel/docteam/faq/faq/trunk/usersguide.xml:20: parser error : Entity 'userguide-rev' not defined
<sivang>                 <revnumber>&userguide-rev;</revnumber>
<sivang> froud: could you fix it so I would be able to view it in yelp?
<froud> Yes its a file that enrico somehow did not get into the lats pacth I gave
<froud> will submit a new bug and patch
<hornbeck> sivang: whos patch changed everything?
<froud> For now create a file called VERSION
<sivang> hornbeck: patch to what? Our new patcher is froud :)
<froud> Type 34 as the content
<hornbeck> ok
<sivang> froud: this will fetch an older version from the repo?
<froud> sivang, for some reason the VERSION file was not applied to the userguide patch. It's in the patch, but the file is not in SVN
<sivang> froud: ok, where should I create this file?
<froud> sivang, no just reads the file called VERSION in the root of trunk/
<froud> hello hornbeck 
<hornbeck> froud addings the VERSION file fixes it
<hornbeck> even a "touch VERSION" worked
<froud> yes
<froud> that is correct
<froud> see global.entfor definition of the entity
<sivang> froud: didn't fix it for me..
<hornbeck> sivang: did you do it in the trunk directory
<hornbeck> ?
<froud> yes
<sivang> hornbeck: yes
<froud> just do touch VERSION in the trunk/
<hornbeck> svn up and it should work
<froud> thanks hornbeck 
<hornbeck> yep
<hornbeck> man I am tired of writing code
<sivang> froud: ok, I put "34" as the content it faild - I just created an empty file, works.
<sivang> hornbeck: what code are you writing?
<froud> sivang, do rm VERSION
<froud> then do svn up in trunk
<froud> sivang, hornbeck has the file in HEAD
<hornbeck> I am writing a database that will hold customer information that can be retrieved off a client side window or over the internet but at the same time can be synced to a custom program on a palm
<hornbeck> I am also writing the frontends
<hornbeck> sounds bigger than it is
<froud> hornbeck, I have to big patches in bugzilla that you can apply ifyou feel like taking a break :-)
<hornbeck> let me check them out
<hornbeck> froud: have you asked for commit?
<hornbeck> for you?
<froud> no but it would help
<froud> for now I just patch
<sivang> froud: please discuss major non cosmetical changes over the mailing list if you get svn commit access :)
<froud> yes, I understand that
<hornbeck> man it is nice to be using linux right now :-)
<froud> sure is;_)
<hornbeck> I have been using OS X and windows for about two weeks straight
<froud> sivang, all changes I do discuss. but mailing list is so slow. do people actually read it
* froud cringes
<hornbeck> I read it :-)
<froud> sivang,  I realize I have to go careful on making changes if I am using commit
<froud> hornbeck, r u on the user guide?
<froud> working on
<hornbeck> not at the moment
<hornbeck> I am not working on anything
<hornbeck> :-(
<hornbeck> just trying to get my work for my job done
<froud> Hmmm, what's the plan to get User Guide rolling
<hornbeck> I thought it was on hold till the quickguide was done
<hornbeck> that is what I was told
<froud> OK
<froud> so what's the plan to get the quick guide rolling? :_)
<hornbeck> is it not?
<froud> Hmmm, can you help me decide on stuff that you think we can port form wiki to quick guide
<froud> i.e finished stuff
<hornbeck> I can but, I am not really sure what is being done in the quickguide right now
<hornbeck> is nothing being added?
<hornbeck> I  have not looked at it
<hornbeck> give me one sec
<froud> not much in the xml src
* sivang would like to raise attention to how we do stuff in the docteam :) non cosmetical changes should be discussed over the mailing list first as IRC Is not always the best accessible medium to all other contributors :)
<sivang> preferably with more then 3 people
<sivang> :)
<hornbeck> sivang: I know this
<hornbeck> but I was not aware that the quickguide was not moving
<froud> I count three people here. Dont worry I will not do anything crazy
<froud> b'sides we can always role back to a prev revvvvvvv in svn
<hornbeck> sivang: it seems that in the beginning we got tons done because noone had to report to anyone
<hornbeck> now we get nothing done because everyone disagrees
<hornbeck> :-)
<froud> hornbeck, OK I have created patches to make all the books valid and well-formed
<sivang> froud: add the versoin correction also :)
<hornbeck> sivang: I already did
<froud> sivang, do rm VERSION
<froud> then do svn up
<froud> in trunk/
<froud> hornbeck, the files are now all ready to be hacked
<froud> let svn take care of the problems
<hornbeck> you got bug numbers?
<froud> 5008,
<froud> 5012
<sivang> froud: doesn't work
<froud> sivang, what does not work
<sivang> froud: sorry, works now.
<froud> hornbeck, there is also 5005
<froud> but please check it as it can break the build for other people
<froud> I made two changes in 5005
<froud> 1. path to use current link to docbook xhtml
<hornbeck> froud: 5008 is there anything you need to do outside a regular patch -p0 <
<froud> 2. chunk.xsl replaced with profile-chunk.xsl
<froud> if people have old systems (i.e. without the current link) it will not work for them
<froud> By using the current/ we get a level of indirection from the version upgrades of the docbook xsl
<froud> So if everyone uses current, then if they upgrade their docbook-xsl package their build for ubuntu-docs will not break
<hornbeck> ahh
<froud> hornbeck, hope you understand :-)
<hornbeck> so if they are on warty it breaks
<hornbeck> am I following?
* sivang is a bit confused about this.
<hornbeck> basicly I am getting, if you are up to date in Hoary you are fine
<hornbeck> if not you are broke
<froud> Dunno does warty have file:/usr/share/xml/docbook/stylesheet/nwalsh/current
<hornbeck> well is that  a correct statement?
* sivang appears to not understad froud last statement about the breakup.
<froud> for most up-to-date distros this is true
<froud> sivang, some older distros dont have docbook xsl inthe same place
<froud> as the newer distros
<sivang> ok, so this guide will be only available on hoary?
<sivang> or usabel on it?
<froud> hornbeck, I thought of using XML catalog but then not everyone understand catalogs :-(
<froud> no
<froud> sivang, it must work everywhere
<hornbeck> froud: alot of the docteam had never touched any of this stuff before now
<froud> we need a technical solution
<froud> hornbeck, I understand this
<hornbeck> froud: you are sean wheller correct?
<froud> yes
<hornbeck> ok, I thought so but like to make sure
<froud> hornbeck,the hack solution is for people to create a current link to their docbook xsl in the location specified 
<hornbeck> right
<froud> that way the build will just work
<hornbeck> that is 5005 right?
<froud> hornbeck, yes
<hornbeck> ok
<froud> hornbeck, but will they do it? or should I create a script to test version and if warty then create link
<hornbeck> froud: that is a question for the mailing list
<froud> Hmm yes. They will have to run it as su. Not good
<froud> I posted this problem to thelist
<froud> no comment as yet
<froud> but hen people dont seem to commnet on much on the list
<froud> :_)
<hornbeck> did you post it as a question or as  a "this will happen when"
<froud> hmm goo dpoint what did I do
<hornbeck> if it was not a  question it will go unanswered
<hornbeck> ask them like you just asked me
<froud> hornbeck, enrico want sto speak to mako about this
<hornbeck> ahh
<hornbeck> ok
<hornbeck> I hate using pc laptops without a mouse
<froud> you use a mouse ?
<froud> just kidding
<hornbeck> just to click the pictures :-)
<froud> hornbeck, have you ever tried http://gcc.gnu.org/java/ instead of J2SE
<froud> to run Apache FOP?
<hornbeck> no
<hornbeck> I don't even have java installed on the server
<hornbeck> at least I do not think
<hornbeck> nope
<froud> I'm think of it as an alternative for the doc team to build PDF
<froud> I do believe http://gcc.gnu.org/java/ is in the debian tree
<froud> so there is no problem with distributing it
<hornbeck> do you mean gcj?
<froud> yep
<hornbeck> gcj, is alright
<hornbeck> I have used it to build Eclipse
<froud> can we ship Apache FOP
<hornbeck> I have no clue
<hornbeck> have you tried gcj with it?
<froud> In our production env I would like to try use gcj and apache fop to create PDF from xsl:fo
<froud> not yet
<froud> on my list
<froud> not a high priority
<hornbeck> ok
<froud> seems people are not hot for a pdf version
<hornbeck> I have never used Apache FOP
<hornbeck> I hate pdf
<froud> OK :-) So how about those patches the big ones for now. can you apply them?
<hornbeck> I am testing them
<hornbeck> :-)
<hornbeck> give me a few
<froud> ok
<hornbeck> I am still switching between computers for work and this one
<froud> I'll leave you to it. Let me know the outcome
<hornbeck> what is the correct way to apply the patch for you
<hornbeck> ?
<froud> Just apply the patch as normal why?
<hornbeck> -p0 ?
<hornbeck> its hanging up
<froud> patch 5008 is made on trunk/
<froud> patch 5012 is made on fq2/
<hornbeck> worked that time
<froud> where is it hanging
<froud> they are big:_)
<froud> sorry about that
<froud> next patches will be smaller
<froud> much smaller
<froud> my basic rule is that patches with the ext txt are on the directory level and contain diff for multiple files
<froud> file specific patches are filename.ext.diff
<hornbeck> 5008 seems to work fine
<hornbeck> 5008 is commited
<ChrisH> btw... wouldn't the trunk/parts not belong into a trunk/usersguide/parts directory?
<hornbeck> there is not a userguide directory
<hornbeck> everything is in the userguide directory actually
<hornbeck> faq is userguide
<froud> hornbeck, 5008 IconUbuntu.png not removed ?
<hornbeck> huh?
<froud> hornbeck, " everything is in the userguide" I will sortthese things later
<hornbeck> froud: IconUbuntu.png not removed?  What does that mean
<froud> hornbeck, for some reason IconUbuntu.png is not removed in my WC for quickguide/
<froud> I'm sure I removed it
<froud> I'm looking at r103
<hornbeck> is it supposed to be removed?
<froud> yes, we have this object in trunk/
<hornbeck> but quickguide will be moved out of userguide
<hornbeck> so quickguide should have it itself
<froud> hornbeck, they will remian in the same repos?
<froud> the object is global
<hornbeck> froud: it was asked for them to have seperate repos when they move
<froud> or will be soon
<hornbeck> unless that has been changed
<froud> whew that will increase the overhead
<froud> If they are in the same repo we have more flexability for reuse
<hornbeck> I am not sure, maybe people changed their minds while I was gone
<hornbeck> yeah
<froud> I would like to see a folder for each book
<froud> at present userguide is actually sitting in part/
<hornbeck> that would be nice
<froud> parts/
<froud> the userguide.xml should mv to the root of a folder called userguide
<ChrisH> seconded
* froud thanks ChrisH 
<froud> The Makefile in trunk/ will have targets for all, userguide, quickguide, faq
<froud> Oh and dist
<hornbeck> froud: make the change and make a patch :-)
<hornbeck> all sounds good to me
<froud> ok
<froud> good thing saves me having to rewrite the makefile :_)
<froud> hornbeck, two more things
<froud> images
<froud> should we have a trunk/images/ folder
<froud> all docus will refer filref values to images/
<froud> ../../images/something.png
<froud> 2. Common Objects
<hornbeck> trunk/images would work I think
<froud> Items like legal notice and common block texts of the project can go in trunk/common
<hornbeck> sounds good
<froud> OK so I will create bug and assign to me and create patch and attach to bug
<hornbeck> make a patch and email the list about it
<hornbeck> I will respond to the mail and let people know I support it
<hornbeck> ChrisH: can you do the same?
<hornbeck> I have to get back to work now though
* froud thanks hornbeck 
<hornbeck> nice talking to you froud
<froud> chow
<ChrisH> hornbeck: as soon as I understand everything I'll raise my hand :)
<froud> parts/old/main.xml "Editors: please move the contents from parts/old/*.xml into your appropriate sections and remove them here" I cannot find a bugzilla for this task, was one opened?
<froud> what is the current status of this
<ChrisH> I wrote that comment. And I believe that nobody has yet moved anything.
<ChrisH> And I *hate* bugzilla. :)
<froud> OK I will open a new bugzilla, it's the only way to keep track. :-)
<froud> I dont care what isue tracker we use so long as people use one.
<froud> otherwise people forget
<froud> as people come and go from the project only bugzilla and the code remain
* froud is away: Off doing something else
* froud is back (gone 00:08:44)
* enrico hugs hornbeck
* froud is away: Off doing something else
* froud is back (gone 00:24:06)
<froud> maskie, howzit :-)
* froud is away: Off doing something else
<sid77> hi
<hornbeck> hello
<hornbeck> sivang: you around?
<sivang> hornbeck: yes, 'sup?
<hornbeck> you don't want him to have access or you don't mind?
<sivang> I don't mind :)
<hornbeck> ok
<sivang> sorry if my email was bit cryptic
<hornbeck> could not figure out which you where saying
<hornbeck> so do I need someone else to say they don't mind or go ahead and add him?
<sivang> hornbeck: currently asking chrish , although I know he doesn't mind I want to make sure.
<hornbeck> just let me know
<sivang> hornbeck: ok, on mine and his behalf - you can go with it :)
<hornbeck> I am going to go ahead and add him than, as soon as he gets back
<hornbeck> froud: when you get here, please message me
<hornbeck> so we can get you access to the server
#ubuntu-doc 2005-01-08
<hornbeck> froud: you around?
<enrico> hello hornbeck!
* froud is back (gone 10:42:03)
<froud> good morn
<froud> african grettings
<hornbeck> I am only here a sec
* froud rubs the mist from his eyes
<hornbeck> froud now has access
<hornbeck> I am going to leave now :-)
<froud> hornbeck, thanks
<hornbeck> email me if anything goes wrong, I made a backup right before giving access to him :-)
* froud thanks the doc team
<froud> he he :-)
<froud> you can use hot-backup.py
<hornbeck> yeah, I know
<froud> Thanks for all your help
<froud> I just woke yp 
<froud> up
<froud> 07:30 here in Johannesbrg
* froud ponders why he is awake so early
<froud> hornbeck, you still alive :-)
<froud> do you have a https interface for commit access
<froud> I am getting an authentication error while trying to setup for svn
<froud> svn: Commit failed (details follow):
<froud> <froud> svn: MKACTIVITY of /faq/!svn/act/1b5d1b7c-46ec-0310-9a18-d0e28e8fc7c3: authorization failed (http://69.155.172.150)
<froud> can anyone help here
* enrico welcomes froud among the committers
* froud thanks enrico
<froud> enrico
<froud> but Im not ther eyet
<enrico> uhm... authentication error...
<froud> Hmmm
<enrico> tried checking out http://yourusername@69.155.172.150 ?
<enrico> ehm,  http://yourusername@69.155.172.150/faq ?
<froud> no i did svn co http:..... --username ... --password ...
<enrico> then, when you do commit, you should be prompted for your password once and that's it
<enrico> Ah, allright.  That should be it, then
<froud> Ok will fgive it a try
<froud> It did not prompt me just did co
<enrico> It doesn't prompt at the checkout
<enrico> only at commit
<froud> so each time I do commit I need to pass the password ?
<hornbeck> no the password will keep after your first commit
<hornbeck> or it shouldl
<hornbeck> should
<froud> ok so same as stcin stdout sv://
<froud> stdin
<froud> svn://
<hornbeck> there is no svn://
<hornbeck> http://
<hornbeck> just http://
<froud> yes what I mean is it is the same as when using stdin/stdout on a svn:// protocol
<hornbeck> the only difference now is you can svn commit <file>
<hornbeck> yes
<froud> Should we not use https://
<hornbeck> this is temporary right now
<froud> OK
<hornbeck> never meant to be a long term thing
<hornbeck> I made it so we would have something
<hornbeck> I am off to bed
<hornbeck> email problems to me, I will be back in about 6.5 hours
<froud> He he no I have stuff to do
* froud deprive enrico of a few minutes sleep
<enrico> enrico is wide awake (14:27 here :)
<enrico> However, I'm about to go out (they're waiting for me downstairs)
<froud> ok chow
<enrico> see you all later!
<froud> problem solved
* froud is away: Off doing something else
<abelli> enrico..
<abelli> ciao
<enrico> Ciao!
<ChrisH> froud: Could you perhaps edit the wiki/DocBook page I started and give some more guidelines on how we will work? Like entities, xmllint, suggested editor applications etc? Would help.
* froud is back (gone 01:01:47)
<froud> ChrisH, where exactly in wikipedia is this page? URL
<abelli> sivang: ping
<ChrisH> froud: http://ubuntulinux.org/wiki/DocBook and http://ubuntulinux.org/wiki/DocBookReference
<ChrisH> froud: That is as much as I know about DocBook <excuse>which was enough to get started</excuse> :)
<froud> OK thanks I will take a look and make changes
<sivang> abelli: pong
<froud> ChrisH, see this article http://www.sastc.org.za/articles/xml-solv-prop.html
<sivang> ChrisH: heheheh
<sivang> :)
<froud> I have published it under creative commons
<sivang> froud: Shalom Yedidi!
<froud> sivang, shalom
<sivang> ehhh, creative commons, what a wonderful license..
<froud> sivang, you need to do svn up
<froud> actually everyone using svn needs to do svn up, except ChrisH 
<sivang> froud: any new stuff for me there?
<sivang> :)
<froud> The makefile is not ready, I am busy with it
<froud> when last did you do svn up ?
<sivang> anybody seen enrico?
<ChrisH> froud: very general... but nice for starters
<froud> sivang, just do it
<sivang> Nike (tm) ?
<sivang> :)
<froud> ChrisH, yes, but gets th epoint of  why use xml
<ChrisH> froud: Right...
<ChrisH> froud: How the heck do you have five penguins in ZA? :)
<froud> Five linux boxes :-)
<ChrisH> Oh... okay.
<ChrisH> Pengiuns would have been funkier though.
<sivang> froud: done, now what?
<froud> each a different breed of penguin
<froud> yelp userguide.xml
<froud> and the others to see they work
<froud> for you
<froud> sivang, userguide is now at docbook 4.3 as a test
<sivang> 4.3, meaning new standards new featrues?
<froud> sivang, only problem is with the 4.3 task element, we dont use it yet, but I intend to so Shaun (GNOME) will add this to Yelp
<froud> The other docs are using docbook 4.1.2
<froud> still
<sivang> froud: ok, you have to do some explenation for the technically challanged amongs us..:)
<froud> Notice how the ubuntu icon is now displayed
<froud> sivang, look at the srcs see how it works
<sivang> froud: what is task element?
<froud> you will notice stuff like &publisher;
<froud> task element is a new element that was introduced in docbook 4.3
<froud> question time
<sivang> btw, the logo doesn't display at all over my setup.
<froud> On the contents page ?
<sivang> yes
<froud> Hmm hangon
<sivang> ChrisH: torf is down or something?
<ChrisH> sivang: should not be... what are you missing?
<froud> sivang, svn up
<froud> in root of trunk
<sivang> lemme try again
<froud> he is right
<froud> sivang, cd quickguide
<froud> yelp quickguide.xml
<sivang> eh, I did it for the userguide, you should love it also a bit :)
<sivang> the logo display there is b0rked.
<froud> yes something I need to find out why
<froud> But I will be moving userguide.xml to parts
<froud> then rename parts to userguide
<froud> do you see it in the quick guide
<sivang> I don't get it, are you merging the usersguide with the quickguide?
<sivang> didn't we agree that this is not what was decided?>
<froud> no
<froud> not allowed to remember
<sivang> :)
<froud> I said I will mv userguide.xml to parts
<ChrisH> sivang: Every project (users guide, quick guide, whatever else) is getting an own directory. Nothing less.
<froud> then mv parts to usersguide
<ChrisH> sivang: So although the repository is still called "faq" it contains all the projects.
<froud> Yes, this is a small things
<sivang> ChrisH: ah ok :) so we get more oder
<ChrisH> It will still be a week until no one else but froud understands the structure. ;)
<froud> I want to rename fq2 to faq
<sivang> not odor :) order..
<froud> yes
<froud> Does the quickguide load the image for your?
<sivang> well, froud should write up a guide for the new doc proj structure.
<sivang> froud: yes
<froud> OK my mistake
<ChrisH> sivang: Yes, asked him already to polish my DocBook[Reference]  Wiki pages.
<froud> quickguide is using docbook 4.3
<ChrisH> sivang: He makes me look stupid. :)
<sivang> froud: toss in a "new documentation structure guide" for free ? 
<sivang> ChrisH: what do you think this makes me look like? more stupid then you...
<froud> sivang, not many changes from the usual
<froud> we just have a greater degree of indirection
<ChrisH> sivang: Then you are extra stupid.
<froud> sivang, cd to trunk/
<ChrisH> sivang: We will meet at the next SUDWC...
<froud> less global.ent
<ChrisH> sivang: (Stupid Ubuntu Doc Writers Conference)
<sivang> ChrisH: I find it growing as the days go by, X,XX,XXX,XXXX,XXXX,..... :)
<sivang> froud: THERE
<sivang> sorry for the caps
<froud> ok you see entities
<froud> a few of them
<froud> yep?
<sivang> froud: what do you define as entities?
<froud> <?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?>
<froud> <!-- VERSION FILES -->
<froud> <!ENTITY userguide-rev SYSTEM 'VERSION'>
<froud> <!ENTITY quickguide-rev SYSTEM 'quickguide/VERSION'>
<froud> <!ENTITY faqguide-rev SYSTEM 'fq2/VERSION'>
<froud> <!-- COMMON DOC OBJECTS -->
<sivang> ChrisH: very ery stupid ubuntu doc project starter..
<froud> <!ENTITY publisher SYSTEM 'common/publisher.xml'>
<froud> <!ENTITY legalnotice-feedback SYSTEM 'common/legalnotice-feedback.xml'>
<froud> <!ENTITY inline-ubuntu-icon SYSTEM 'common/inlinemediaobject-ubuntu-icon.xml'>
<froud> <!ENTITY ubuntu-icon SYSTEM 'common/mediaobject-ubuntu-icon.xml'>
<froud> right
<sivang> froud: but this is a _directory_ , what you pasted are contents from files...
<froud> yes are you in trunk/
<sivang> froud: yes I am.
<froud> ok do       less global.ent
<sivang> drwxr-xr-x   3 pooh pooh  142 2004-12-28 13:51 common
<sivang> drwxr-xr-x   3 pooh pooh  140 2004-12-28 14:01 debian
<sivang> drwxr-xr-x   4 pooh pooh   57 2004-12-28 13:51 fq2
<sivang> -rw-r--r--   1 pooh pooh 1298 2004-12-28 13:51 global.ent
<sivang> drwxr-xr-x   3 pooh pooh   38 2004-12-28 13:51 images
<sivang> drwxr-xr-x   3 pooh pooh   17 2004-12-28 13:51 libs
<sivang> -rw-r--r--   1 pooh pooh  564 2004-12-27 13:31 Makefile
<sivang> drwxr-xr-x  11 pooh pooh  141 2004-12-27 13:31 parts
<sivang> drwxr-xr-x   4 pooh pooh   64 2004-12-28 13:51 quickguide
<sivang> -rw-r--r--   1 pooh pooh 2258 2004-12-27 13:31 README
<sivang> drwxr-xr-x   7 pooh pooh  153 2004-12-28 14:05 .svn
<sivang> -rw-r--r--   1 pooh pooh  779 2004-12-27 13:31 ubuntu.xsl
<sivang> -rw-r--r--   1 pooh pooh 4543 2004-12-28 13:51 usersguide.xml
<sivang> -rw-r--r--   1 pooh pooh   10 2004-12-28 13:51 VERSION
<sivang> -rw-r--r--   1 pooh pooh  998 2004-12-27 13:31 xinclude.mod
<sivang> I do recognize on ething, my "debian" folder :)
<froud> yo dude what ar eyou doing
<froud> in bash do less global.ent
<sivang> ok, sec.
<sivang> ok, I have the file infront of me.
<froud> OK those or entities
<froud> take the first one
<froud> <!ENTITY userguide-rev SYSTEM 'VERSION'>
<sivang> Ok, I know this, I know XML :) just didn't understadn what you defined as entities at first place,
<froud> if you insert &userguide-rev; in your doc it will be included
<sivang> because one might have different definitions to it.
<sivang> yes I know.
<sivang> ok, so that simplifies and stream lines alot. good
<froud> OK see the new doctype decl
<sivang> btw, why do you need a shoutcast entiy?
<froud> it was use din the docs
<sivang> eh ok..
<froud> see the DocType Decl in userguide.xml
<froud> <!DOCTYPE book PUBLIC "-//OASIS//DTD DocBook XML V4.1.2//EN" 
<froud> 	"http://www.oasis-open.org/docbook/xml/4.1.2/docbookx.dtd" [
<froud> <!ENTITY % xinclude SYSTEM "xinclude.mod">
<froud> %xinclude;
<froud> <!ENTITY % globalent SYSTEM "global.ent">
<sivang> doctype decl is in the global ?
<froud> %globalent;
<froud> ] >
<froud> see above
<sivang> ok, some of this I recognize,
<froud> global.ent is defined in all files in this manner withinn the internal subset
<froud> now you see xinclude.mod
<froud> this is also defined in all files
<sivang> yes, that what I dind't understand
<sivang> you mean, included in all files.
<sivang> ?
<froud> OK xinlcude.mod adds the xi namespace to the docbook dtd
<sivang> because you defined it once on the global.ent
<froud> yes
<sivang> ok
<sivang> xinclude.mod is docboook std?
<froud> any entity defined in global.ent is available to all documents
<sivang> so when I need an entity I do
<sivang> SYSTEM.<object> ?
<froud> No 
<froud> you do &entity-name;
<froud> for example
<froud> <!ENTITY ubuntu-bugzilla 'http://bugzilla.ubuntu.com/' >
<froud> bugzilla is referenced in mutiple books
<froud> the location may chnage oneday
<froud> change
<froud> b'cause all docs call &ubuntu-bugzilla;
<froud> we can change the value for this in one place
<froud> global.ent
<froud> and all docs are updated
<froud> this is how I used it
<froud> <abstract>
<froud>             <para>This document aims at answering questions that are asked frequently. It contains
<froud>                 Wiki entries from the <ulink url="&ubuntu-web;">ubuntulinux.org</ulink> web
<froud>                 site, the mailing lists and all the contributions we received through the Ubuntu Bugzilla.</para>
<froud>         </abstract>
<sivang> cool, I understand that this is what we achive by that, I am just a bit intrigued by the syntax iself, that is
<sivang> I want to know why this defines it that way.
<froud> see the above
<froud>  <ulink url="&ubuntu-web;">ubuntulinux.org</ulink>
<sivang> this is the usage, not the definition.
<froud> this usage is calling &ubuntu-web;
<froud> which equals
<sivang> right
<sivang> yes?
<froud> <!ENTITY ubuntu-web 'http://www.ubuntulinux.org/' >
<froud> if this value changes we just change it in global.ent
<froud> as the doc system grows
<froud> and things around us change
<froud> we want a short way to update things
<froud> this level of indirection shields us from these changes
<sivang> yes! but:
<froud> but
<sivang> 13:17 < froud> <!ENTITY % xinclude SYSTEM "xinclude.mod">
<sivang> xinclude.mod = file shipped with the docbook distro?
<froud> OK that is for xinclude
<froud> yes
<sivang> which is the code for incorporating namespaces into another?
<froud> however, we will ship iiiiiiit also
<froud> yes
<froud> it add xi to several elements
<sivang> ok, what is xi? X(ml) (I)nclude infrastrucutre?
<froud> It also provide the xi:fallback
<froud> yes
<sivang> I see, ok now -
<froud> so if a path to a file is wrong we will see the words FIX ME
<sivang> basically what you did is 
<sivang> define a new entity SYSTEM?
<froud> It's not new its standard but I applied it to ubuntu docs
<froud> we have a combination of Xinclude and entities
<ChrisH> froud: Entities are nice... but the new layout is much uglier than before if you work with the sources. :)
<sivang> could you please just explain the way you defined it again?
<sivang> not the usage, the definition.
<sivang> :)
<froud> what xi or entities
<sivang> xi
<sivang> or how you decalred it on the global file
<froud> OK to use XInlcude you need to extend the Docbook DTD
<froud> xinclude.mod is that extension
<froud> to make it known to the parser I define it in the external subset of the DocType Decl
<froud> That is this part
<froud> <!DOCTYPE book PUBLIC "-//OASIS//DTD DocBook XML V4.1.2//EN" 
<froud> 	"http://www.oasis-open.org/docbook/xml/4.1.2/docbookx.dtd" [
<froud> <!ENTITY % xinclude SYSTEM "xinclude.mod">
<froud> %xinclude;
<froud> <!ENTITY % globalent SYSTEM "global.ent">
<froud> %globalent;
<froud> ] >
<froud> <!ENTITY % xinclude SYSTEM "xinclude.mod">
<froud> <froud> %xinclude;
<froud> now when I validate the parser sees the xi namespace as valid for the dtd
<froud> does that help
<sivang> is this like saying: define xinclude of type SYSTEM , implementation is in xinclude.mod ?
<sivang> the same for globalent?
<froud> yes except I put them in a seperate file external to the document
<froud> why?
<sivang> like extern in C ? :)
<froud> ok
<sivang> ok = yes?
<froud> so I can create a new instance of the object in each file
<froud> ChrisH, looks dont count
<froud> :-)
<sivang> ok, what does the SYSTEM type means from the parser view?
<froud> no
<froud> When an ENTITY defines with SYSTEM it means look in the system the entity vlaue is external to the file
<froud> example
<froud> <!ENTITY quickguide-rev SYSTEM 'quickguide/VERSION'>
<sivang> froud: be back in 30 ...gotta get some food, will read the backlog
<froud> The value for quickguide-rev can be found in the file quickguide/VERSION
<froud> ok back in 5 mins
<froud> back
<froud> ChrisH, r you following this stuff?
* froud is hot. Gone swimming
* froud is away: Off doing something else
<ChrisH> froud: A little... doing multiple things at the same time currently. :)
* froud is back (gone 00:40:42)
<froud> ChrisH, I will document this in the wiki and give people links to things. Once this is done I will send mail about it to the list.
<ChrisH> froud: Good boy! :)
<ChrisH> froud: You are really teaching us a lot of good things. As I said... DocBook documentation is very rare on the internet. So having someone who really understands it is very helpful. Good to have you here.
<froud> ChrisH, sivang, others can do svn up
<froud> fq2 is now known as faqguide
<froud> parts is known as userguide
<froud> userguide.xml has moved to userguide/
<hornbeck> thanks froud
<froud> no wories
<froud> worries
<hornbeck> 15 revisions since about two hours ago?
<froud> he he
<froud> directory control is not easy
<froud> :-)
<hornbeck> guess not
<froud> many small changes to be sure
<hornbeck> right
<froud> rather than one big change and no way back
<hornbeck> I guess I can start on the userguide again
<froud> yes
<ChrisH> froud: I hope the revision number is 32 bits :)
<froud> do you need explanation of how things hang together
<hornbeck> write a email about it
<froud> going to put it in wiki and will mail link
<hornbeck> good deal
<hornbeck> I am off to work again
<froud> hornbeck, do yelp quickguide.xml
<froud> you should know that it is now at docbook 4.3 as a test
<froud> hornbeck, shaun from GDP will add task element to yelp so we can use it. Bugzilla is posted to GNOME and Shaun has accepted
* froud is away: Off doing something else
* froud is back (gone 00:03:28)
<froud> anybody who needs to work on userguide please do svn up a few small pieces I forgot to move are now moved. sorry for the inconvenience
* froud is away: Off doing something else
* froud is back (gone 00:00:52)
<froud> FYI current HEAD is at r128
* froud is away: Off doing something else
* froud is back (gone 00:00:26)
<froud> sorry
<froud> r148
* froud is away: Off doing something else
<hornbeck> froud: pictures are broke in quickguide
* froud is back (gone 00:08:18)
<ChrisH> froud: Could you consider turning off that auto-away?
<froud> hornbeck, replace then with &inline-ubuntu-icon;
<froud> so
<froud> <mediaobject>
<froud> 	        <imageobject>
<froud> 	            <imagedata fileref="../../../IconUbuntu.png" format="PNG" align="right"/>
<froud> 	        </imageobject>
<froud> 	    </mediaobject>
<froud> becomes
<froud>  &inline-ubuntu-icon;
<froud> The value of  &inline-ubuntu-icon; is found in the file 
<froud> common/inlinemediaobject-ubuntu-icon.xml
<froud> as defined by entity
<froud> <!ENTITY inline-ubuntu-icon SYSTEM 'common/inlinemediaobject-ubuntu-icon.xml'>
<froud> in
<froud> global.ent
<froud> I have not yet ported all these issues
<froud> hornbeck, you want it or shall I?
<froud> ChrisH, done :-)
<ChrisH> froud: Thanks. :)
<froud> do we want to use nav graphics in the chunked output?
<ChrisH> I vote for con. It does not help the user a lot.
<froud> this only applies to HTML output
<froud> not Yelp
<ChrisH> Still con. :)
<froud> OK nop prob
<ChrisH> Just my vote. There are others left.
<froud> not a problem I wil just commnet it from the custom layer
<froud> Docbook has a special css, anyone here good with css (hint ChrisH )
<ChrisH> froud: Yes, I am. :)
<froud> you want to enhance it for ubuntu style etc
<ChrisH> froud: k
<ChrisH> froud: We started with the style sheet from plone. But it looked ugly. I'll fix it.
<froud> ChrisH, do svn up
<froud> cd libs/
<froud> you will find the docbook css
<froud> can I open a bugzilla for this?
<ChrisH> froud: sure
<froud> what's your email
<ChrisH> froud: I'm home in 2 hours. I'll check it carefully then.
<ChrisH> froud: email@christoph-haas.de
<froud> ok
* froud is being called to eat
<ChrisH> froud: mucho appetito
<froud> ChrisH, see https://bugzilla.ubuntu.com/show_bug.cgi?id=5051
<sivang> ChrisH: what's up?
<sivang> I had to take my workrave..now back
<froud> guys do we want admon graphics
<ChrisH> sivang: We are turning everything upside down again. The documentation is now in Microsoft Word 2004 format.
<froud> ouch
<ChrisH> froud: Perhaps. I'm using just text admons for my tutorials. That worked fine enough. Too many graphics quickly overload a page.
<ChrisH> froud: Unless you have some very funny comic cliparts though. :)
<sivang> ok, should I submit my resignation letter to you then? or to froud?
<ChrisH> sivang: froud is the new boss. We fired Mark and Enrico.
* ChrisH is curious how enrico will put that in the daily traffic report
<sivang> ok, then, I am off to start a new distro
<sivang> ciao!
<froud> ok admons off until later, i will need to go get the icons from GNOME
<ChrisH> sivang: Sivux?
<froud> l'hit
<sivang> ChrisH: hmm, that's a very good name! I hope you don't mind I use it and give you no credit?
<sivang> :)
<ChrisH> froud: And when all that tidying up is done we seriously need to get some words into the files. :)
<ChrisH> sivang: Too late, already registered that as a trademark.
<froud> you noticed
<sivang> gaaah!!
<sivang> Then, we meet at court :)
<ChrisH> sivang: But it's no problem. I already sold the name to 50% Microsoft and 50% SCO.
<ChrisH> sivang: They asked for your credit card number. ;)
<sivang> ChrisH: so why my balance is -2000EU in debit?
<sivang> :)
* sivang svn updates
<hornbeck> man revision 149
<ChrisH> sivang: It has become really hard to shock you. Like my credibility has decreased. :)
<sivang> ChrisH: hehehe
<sivang> well, I just got used to your humor and find it great fun flowing with it :)
<sivang> ChrisH: we should meet in person again soon, less busy more laughs would come I am sure :)
<froud> guys when building docs is it ok for you if I do it in trunk
<ChrisH> sivang: Oh, yeah. Just wait until we have our house. I'll reserve a terminal room with a pizza oven for you. :)
<ChrisH> froud: you mean where the Makefile will be located?
<sivang> ChrisH: hahaha! THANK YOU
<froud> makefile is in trunk/
<froud> where do you want the results
<froud> of make all
<sivang> anyway, back to bussiness.
<ChrisH> froud: I'd say still in the trunk
<sivang> faqguide is the korean faa ?
<sivang> faq?
<froud> Ok that's good
<sivang> froud: trunk is the current develpometn bracnh?
<froud> yes but builds dont get checked in
<sivang> when do we clean all the other folders? do we still need them if everything is tidy up in trunk?
<ChrisH> what else is there?
<froud> there is a clean target
* sivang is confused.
<sivang> again
<froud> look at makefile iiits not complete
<froud> but it has the startings
<froud> sivang, is always confused but we still love sivang 
<sivang> well, yeah I tend to get confused , because I love to stay on control! MUHAAHAHA :)
* froud is off to movies tonight. yes froud does have alife
<sivang> ChrisH: is faqguide is the korean guy faq?
<ChrisH> sivang: gq
<ChrisH> sivang: Smells more like the current FAQ page from the /support section
<ChrisH> sivang: plovs has introduced it in r84
<sivang> ChrisH: nobody knows what is it?
<ChrisH> sivang: your debian/ directory should also move...
<sivang> surely with the new funky rocking organization somebody should know where it came from..
<sivang> ChrisH: hey! nobody touches myd ebian dir! debina rules!
<froud> keep the deb dir it has important stuff
<ChrisH> froud: shouldn't the xinclude.mod be put into common/ ?
<froud> well for some
<froud> no it will move to libs/ later
<ChrisH> sivang: Just move it into where you need it. It probably does not build a package of *all* documents, does it?
<froud> as will global.ent
<sivang> ChrisH: actually it calls the make file..
<sivang> ChrisH: and builds html at the moment.
<froud> NOTE TO ENRICO: *PLEASE DO NOT COMMIT ANY PRESENTATIONAL FORMATS TO SVN. THANKS*
<ChrisH> sivang: Uh huh? Very weird... shouldn't it create a package?
<ChrisH> Ouch... my ears...
<froud> so he will add it to the new
<froud> sivang, what are you on about qg and Korean
<sivang> froud: There is a faq looking guide in www.ubuntuguide.org, which is done by some korean guy - the faqguide looks much the same, so I wanted to know if this is the one just imported to docbook, because I know plovs has been doing some work on it.
<froud> is it in korean
<froud> The docs in svn HEAD now are what was in SVN when I started
<froud> I have no idea if that is from plovs since there are no bugzillas
<froud> :-(
<sivang> ok then it's not - no worries
<sivang> I've got everything in control :)_
<froud> :-)
<sivang> probabyl nobody started to import it
* ChrisH is off until l8r
<sivang> ChrisH: c'ya
<froud> bye
<sivang> froud: have glanced at the guide?
<sivang> it's in english
<froud> yes I know I was worried for a moment
<sivang> he basically compiled all of the good stuff that was available from the wiki + main website and organized it in a nice format.
<sivang> (Accessible too)
<sivang> so I recall talks from mataro about maybe importing into our docbook system
<froud> sounds like a good idea
<froud> I cant focus on this until I get a stable base for everyone
<froud> at present people can add content though, the docs are read
<sivang> yes ofcourse, I was just informing you.
<froud> ready
<froud> I am now working on our build system
<froud> ok thanks
<froud> who feels daring :-)
<froud> I need a person to test the make file. It works on my system. Who agrees to be a tester
* froud is deafend by the silence
<sivang> froud: I will 
* sivang does svn up
<sivang> r158
<sivang> froud: what to do?
<ChrisH> Okay... let's see what froud has broken today. :)
<abelli> i think it's the right place... documentation.. culture..
<abelli> what does fogo na bomba means?
<abelli> btw, hi chrish... im the  new [after some days in casablanca]  cenerentola
<ChrisH> abelli: Figured that already, Andrea. :)
<abelli> how is your lady?
<ChrisH> Oh, she's okay. Baby is in bed. Currently making some food.
<abelli> good.. any clue about "fogo na bomba"?
<ChrisH> Not really. Read it from a brazilian IIRC... no idea what it means.
<ChrisH> Fog after bombardment?
<abelli> hehehe... 
<sid77> hi
<froud> midnight in co za
<froud> anyone tuned
<froud> sivang, you have xsltproc installed, I   hope
<froud> sivang, in trunk/
<froud> do make all
<froud> this should create build/ with HTML versions of all books.
<sivang> froud: here. pong
<froud> hey dude
<froud> its midnight you still awake
<froud> sivang, try build the docs
<sivang> froud: let's try, run make from the trink dir?
<froud> yes
<froud> try with one target first
<froud> do make ug
<froud> this will build user guide
<froud> You will get some errors related to xml base ignore them
<froud> and then you will see it writing the html
<froud> when its finished look in trunk/build/userguide/
<froud> open index.html
<sivang> pooh@tigershark ~/devel/docteam/faq/faq/trunk $ make ug
<sivang> Building the Ubuntu User Guide . . .
<sivang> mkdir -p build/userguide/
<sivang> xsltproc --xinclude --stringparam base.dir build/userguide/ libs/html-cust.xsl userguide/usersguide.xml
<sivang> warning: failed to load external entity "/usr/share/xml/docbook/stylesheet/nwalsh/current/html/profile-chunk.xsl"
<sivang> compilation error: file libs/html-cust.xsl line 6 element import
<sivang> xsl:import : unable to load /usr/share/xml/docbook/stylesheet/nwalsh/current/html/profile-chunk.xsl
<sivang> make: *** [ug]  Error 5
<froud> Ok this is because you are running a system that does not have 
<froud> /usr/share/xml/docbook/stylesheet/nwalsh/current/html/profile-chunk.xsl
<sivang> how can I make my system have this?
<froud> hmmm upgrade
<froud> or put a folder (link)
<froud> in this path
<froud> you need to create the following path /usr/share/xml/docbook/stylesheet/nwalsh/current/
<froud> youll need su
<froud> the last folder current is a link to the root of your docbook xsl
<froud> sivang, what is the path to your docbook xsl
<sivang> froud: how to check that?
<froud> ok I'mguessing here
<froud> but look in /usr/share/sgml/
<sivang> froud: sec
<sivang> ok, it is
<sivang> what to look for there?
<froud> finish the path for me
<sivang> I can do ls on it
<sivang> eh soryr
<sivang> /usr/share/sgml/docbook
<froud> is that the dtd or xsl
<sivang> have no idea.
<sivang> pooh@tigershark /usr/share/sgml/docbook $ ls -la
<sivang> total 1
<sivang> drwxr-xr-x   6 root root  152 2004-11-18 23:51 .
<sivang> drwxr-xr-x  13 root root  328 2004-11-14 14:55 ..
<sivang> drwxr-xr-x   3 root root   80 2004-10-21 00:46 custom
<sivang> drwxr-xr-x  10 root root  264 2004-10-21 00:45 dtd
<sivang> drwxr-xr-x   4 root root   96 2004-11-13 03:52 stylesheet
<sivang> drwxr-xr-x   2 root root 1240 2004-11-19 01:51 yelp
<froud> cd stylesheet
<froud> ls
<sivang> pooh@tigershark /usr/share/sgml/docbook/stylesheet $ ls -la
<sivang> total 0
<sivang> drwxr-xr-x  4 root root  96 2004-11-13 03:52 .
<sivang> drwxr-xr-x  6 root root 152 2004-11-18 23:51 ..
<sivang> drwxr-xr-x  3 root root  72 2004-10-21 00:45 dsssl
<sivang> drwxr-xr-x  2 root root  72 2004-11-13 03:52 xsl
<froud> cd xsl
<froud> ls
<sivang> pooh@tigershark /usr/share/sgml/docbook/stylesheet/xsl $ ls -la
<sivang> total 0
<sivang> drwxr-xr-x  2 root root 72 2004-11-13 03:52 .
<sivang> drwxr-xr-x  4 root root 96 2004-11-13 03:52 ..
<sivang> lrwxrwxrwx  1 root root 41 2004-11-13 03:52 nwalsh -> ../../../../xml/docbook/stylesheet/nwalsh
<froud> there she is
<sivang> yes
<sivang> this is probably the standard path for it under an future ubuntu system :)
<sivang> why not setting the make file to include it from there?
<froud> for now you can just vi Makefile 
<froud> no sorry
<froud> give me the full path
<sivang> froud: maybe you should probe /etc/lsb-release to see what system the make is executed on and according to that set up the include paths
<froud> yes I still need to investigate this
<froud> best is to use catalogs
<froud> that way it will work on any system
<froud> the current method is hard coded
<froud> look in libs/html-cust.xsl
<froud> comment out the current import of profile-chunk.xsl
<sivang> froud: eh, I'm getting too tired - maybe we can continue this tommorow ?
<froud> ok just giv eme the full path
<sivang> sec
<froud> my debian box has something else
<sivang> /usr/share/sgml/docbook/stylesheet/xsl
<froud> and
<sivang> /usr/share/sgml/docbook/stylesheet/xsl/nwalsh
<froud> and
<sivang> that;s it
<sivang> wpps
<sivang> woops
<froud> you should have more
<sivang> pooh@tigershark /usr/share/sgml/docbook/stylesheet/xsl/nwalsh $ ls -la
<sivang> total 15
<sivang> drwxr-xr-x  17 root root  480 2004-11-13 03:52 .
<sivang> drwxr-xr-x   3 root root   72 2004-11-13 03:52 ..
<sivang> -rw-r--r--   1 root root  938 2004-10-26 18:27 catalog.xml
<sivang> drwxr-xr-x   2 root root 1616 2004-11-13 03:52 common
<sivang> drwxr-xr-x   2 root root  104 2004-11-13 03:52 css
<sivang> drwxr-xr-x   2 root root  112 2004-11-13 03:52 eclipse
<sivang> drwxr-xr-x   2 root root  144 2004-11-13 03:52 extensions
<sivang> drwxr-xr-x   2 root root 1624 2004-11-13 03:52 fo
<sivang> drwxr-xr-x   2 root root 1888 2004-11-13 03:52 html
<sivang> drwxr-xr-x   2 root root  240 2004-11-13 03:52 htmlhelp
<sivang> drwxr-xr-x   3 root root  888 2004-11-13 03:52 images
<sivang> drwxr-xr-x   2 root root  152 2004-11-13 03:52 javahelp
<sivang> drwxr-xr-x   2 root root  152 2004-11-13 03:52 lib
<sivang> drwxr-xr-x   2 root root  256 2004-11-13 03:52 manpages
<sivang> drwxr-xr-x   2 root root  216 2004-11-13 03:52 profiling
<sivang> drwxr-xr-x   2 root root  200 2004-11-13 03:52 template
<sivang> drwxr-xr-x   4 root root  128 2004-11-13 03:52 tools
<sivang> -rw-r--r--   1 root root 2992 2004-09-19 08:58 VERSION
<sivang> drwxr-xr-x   2 root root 1784 2004-11-13 03:52 xhtml
<froud> ok that the place I have just done a commit
<froud> do svn up
* sivang svning up
<froud> then in trunk/
<froud> do make ug
<sivang> lots of watning
<sivang> warnings
<froud> yes
<sivang> validity warning : Attribute base of element refsect3: already defined
<sivang>  %common.attrib;
<sivang>                 ^
<sivang> xmlns:xi            CDATA       #FIXED       'http://www.w3.org/2001/XInclude'
<froud> complains about xml base
<sivang> ^
<sivang> validity warning : Attribute base of element article: already defined
<sivang>  %common.attrib;
<sivang>                 ^
<sivang> xmlns:xi            CDATA       #FIXED       'http://www.w3.org/2001/XInclude'
<sivang> does it use fop?
<froud> I need to patch this bug
<froud> no
<froud> no fop
<froud> I just did not hav etime to patch it
<sivang> ok
<froud> it will write the files soon
<froud> then cd build/
<froud> ls
<froud> Should be finished
<sivang> still going..
<froud> look for build/userguide/index.html
<froud> geeze what processor u using its slow
<froud> :-)
<sivang> 2.6G HT
<sivang> 512 mem
<sivang> have you sent me a trojan horse? :)
<froud> Get mor emem:-)
<froud> no
<sivang> half a gig is not enough? :)
<froud> no 1 g or >
<froud> :-)
<froud> teasing
<sivang> actually, it creates tons of connection to ww.doc-oasis.org
<sivang> why does it do HTTP?
<froud> yes cause you dont have the docbook 4.3 dtd
<froud> so xsltproc goes to get the dtd from OASIS
<froud> But new version ooof ubuntu will ship docbook 4.3
<froud> and as I understand it also the xsl's in their correct places
<froud> :-)
<froud> still going
<sivang> yes
<froud> you did just build one target right, I meanyou did make ug
<sivang> as soon as tsf would hire me, I would get some more mem
<sivang> :)
<sivang> froud: yes
<sivang> froud: unemployed at the moment...:)
<froud> whew I will have to make that patfor catalogs soon
<froud> people will kill me if there builds are so long and slow
<sivang> yes
<sivang> especially if this is triggerd by my deb package, then they will want to kill me and I in return would come to kill you :))
<froud> but when I'm finished with it, it will run like a dream
<froud> its still rough around the edges
<froud> first cut of the code always is
<sivang> froud: new versino of ubunt? this is hoary ! the development version which supposed to include it no?
<froud> btw there are now a number of targets
<froud> should
<froud> the targets are as follows
<froud> all = build everything
<froud> ug build userguide
<froud> qg build quickguide
<sivang> ok, it's done.
<froud> faq build faqquide
<froud> clean tidy the mess
<sivang> yes I've seen the targets already
<froud> ok look in trunk/build/userguide/
<froud> index.html shold  do it
<froud> Ok I am going to go. I have found a number of problem to fix in the morning. Thanks fo ryour help
<sivang> looked at it.
<sivang> nice, although I would have changed the font size and some of ther rendering 
<sivang> but it's not you that has doen it - I Know :)
<froud> small stuf for the team to do
<sivang> we should have some discussion about this,
<froud> ChrisH, is good with CSS
<sivang> ChrisH: yes he is.
<sivang> now I have to find what I'm good at :)
<froud> he is assigned a bugzilla to do stuff with the css in libs/
<sivang> great.
<froud> can you write jscript
<sivang> although I deeply despise it, I used to wrote alot of it for a living a year ago.
<froud> ok I may have some java scripts for you to write, it will give me time to other stuff
<sivang> did a complete sms reminder web site that was taken down eventually because the client of the company I wokrd for bailed out and dind't pay
<froud> ooops
<froud> hey must go
<sivang> yes, now I have nothing to show :)
<froud> c ya later
<sivang> c'ya
#ubuntu-doc 2005-01-09
<enrico> hornbeck: hello!  Aroud?
<sivang> enrico: hey
<sivang> enrico: it's me
<sivang> :)
<enrico> Hello sivang !
<sivang> hey enrico ! since you went to taiwan we hardly talk :)
<sivang> enrico: got my email?
<sivang> enrico: I see you've been reworking bits of my wiki pages recently
<sivang> :)
<enrico> sivang: got your e-mail
<enrico> sivang: reworking your wiki pages?  Which ones?  I mainly did lots of reparenting
<sivang> enrico: just little additions here and there :) , are we still using them btw?
<enrico> sivang: which pages are you mentioning?
<sivang> eh right, mostly you are now compiling stuff from those pages into the faq?
<enrico> sivang: just taken a bit for the "what is the documentation team"
<sivang> enrico: ok, nice btw :) 
<enrico> sivang: are you busy now?
<enrico> sivang: if you have time, would you like to help me out with the Docteam FAQ?
<enrico> Doh!  I hit C+A+Backspace
<enrico> sivang: if you replied to me, I lost your answer
<sivang> enrico: I will happily, but going to sleep now , almost 24 hours of no sleep..
<sivang> tommorow?
<sivang> night!
<enrico> sivang: 24 hours?  ARGH!
<enrico> Sure!  Tomorrow!
<enrico> Take a rest by all means!  Good night!
<froud> African Greetings
<enrico> hello froud!
<froud> morning
<enrico> good afternoon
<froud> 07:51
<froud> I see people are doing commits that's good. Now I have conflicks diff3 here I come
<enrico> Conflicts with my commit?  I thought I did only really minor things
<enrico> Hope nothing too hard
<froud> Dunno I must have a look. Never a problem let SVN take care of it
<froud> that's why we have svn
<froud> :-)
<froud> SVN Goooooooood
<enrico> SVN is good!
<froud> Hmmm yes. "Fortune Favours the Bold"
<enrico> Is it possible to hook meld into svn to solve conflicts?
<enrico> meld is also really good!
<froud> never tried it
* enrico suggest
<enrico> apt-get install meld
<enrico> meld filea.txt fileb.txt
<enrico> it's really cute.
* froud confesses using SuSE as work horse
* enrico pretends he didn't hear :)
<enrico> http://meld.sourceforge.net/
* froud 's ubuntu box is on the side. Froud likes KDE
<froud> enrico, should work its just a diff tools
<froud> enrico, nice you have puut commnets in with links to possible content
<froud> this is a good method, perhaps everyone should use it. I will give people an idea of where they can do things
<froud> enrico, did you try' the make'
<enrico> Trying make...
<enrico> new laptop is missing software.  apt-get install xsltproc...
<enrico> warning: failed to load external entity "/usr/share/xml/docbook/stylesheet/nwalsh/xhtml/chunk.xsl"
<enrico> let me search for it
<froud> this is the problem with the paths I made a bugzilla for
<froud> you did not want to apply it caus eit would break build
<froud> look in libs/html-cust.xsl
<froud> you will find an xsl:import that is commented
<froud> uncommnet it and comment the other xsl:import
<froud> the problem is that different machines are at different versions so the docbook xsl is in diiiferent places
<froud> your machine must be new, cause it uses the new location for the docbook xsl's
<froud> I am hoping to fix this with catalogs
<enrico> uhm, not necessarily.  It may just be that the new laptop lacks the docbook-xsl package (installing now)
<enrico> silly me, it was even listed among the dependencies in debian/control :)
<froud> oh dear I assume you have these installed
<froud> catalogs will help though
<froud> export XML_CATALOG_FILES=file:///tools/catalog.xml
<enrico> Now it warns about something that looks like xincludes included twice
<froud> each person will just need to export this
<froud> yes thisis another bug for xml base
<froud> I will patch it
<froud> but its not a blocker
<enrico> Still going on.  Quite slow, it's probably accessing stuff from Oasis website
<froud> is it doing http requests
<enrico> netstat confirms
<froud> you need to install docbook 4.3
<enrico> what's exporting XML_CATALOG_FILES for?  avoiding http requests?
<froud> people have docbook dtd and xsl's in various places
<froud> with catalogs they can do this and we dont care
<enrico> In debian sid, it works without exporting XML_CATALOG_FILES
<froud> they just export to their env
<froud> you are using sid
<froud> now
<froud> I have created https://bugzilla.ubuntu.com/show_bug.cgi?id=5067 and assigned myself
<froud> to use xml catalogs
<enrico> It should be possible to just put "XML_CATALOG_FILES=file:///tools/catalog.xml" and make should automatically export it to child processes
<froud> well we can do it in the make or people can add it their env
<enrico> Uhm, maybe it's the opposite?  Let me check
<enrico> it's the opposite.  let's see how to export make vars...
<froud> the problem is that the catalog.xml may be in different places
<enrico> ok.  Just adding "export <varname>" in the makefile exports it to children
<froud> on different systems
<enrico> do we have a list of the possible places?
<froud> not really
<froud> but we can start   by collecting a few catalog files from people
<froud> they can add the files as attachment in bugzilla
<froud> to https://bugzilla.ubuntu.com/show_bug.cgi?id=5067
<froud> then I will add their files to our libs/
<froud> named per os
<froud> distro
<froud> that way a person can just export the path to our catalogs
<froud> what do you think
<enrico> moment.  Toilet then I'll be back with a makefile snippet that tries various locations
<froud> even better
<enrico> froud: here it is:
<enrico> CANDS=\
<enrico>         /etc/passwa \
<enrico>         /etc/passwb \
<enrico>         /etc/passwc \
<enrico>         /etc/passwd
<enrico> ifexists=$(shell test -e $(file) && echo $(file))
<enrico> PASSWD=$(firstword $(foreach file,$(CANDS),$(ifexists)))
<enrico> $(warning $(PASSWD))
<enrico> export PASSWD if you want children to have that in their environment
<enrico> I can add it to the makefile, if you're not working on it at the moment
<froud> looks good go for it :-)
<enrico> groan... in the meantime, the documentation is still building
<enrico> is it possible to make it point to a local copy of those oasis things?
<froud> I am writing the stuff for the docbook part of wiki
<froud> yes we can inlcude the dtd and xsl in th erepos
<froud> but most people should have it installed
<froud> yelp does not need this stuff
<froud> its only for us to buld html
<enrico> Is it this thing that it's being downloaded now all the time? /usr/share/xml/docbook/schema/dtd/4.3/catalog.xml
<froud> no its the dtd
<froud> xsltproc loads the dtd to get all entities
<froud> you can switch this optin off
<enrico> ok
<froud> see xsltproc --novalid
<froud> but then xsltproc will not moan if the files are invalid
<enrico> ok.  Now, another question: what default value should use for the catalog search?  I mean, what is the value used for XML_CATALOG_FILES when XML_CATALOG_FILES is not found in the environment?
<froud> hold
<froud> enrico, its different on systems
<froud> let me see if there is a standard approach somewhere
<froud> enrico, I have /usr/share/sgml/docbook/dtd/4.3/catalog.xml
<froud> if you hav ethe same then its good
<enrico> froud: hello back.  I have it in a different location, but in my system it works anyway.  I committed a makefile that searches both locations
<froud> OK will test it in awhile I want to finish the docbook wiki docs
<enrico> However, I fear I'm breaking more than I solve, as it seems that distributions have a way of properly configuring the lookup path for the catalogs
<enrico> sure
<froud> yes we need a constant method
<froud> I will look into it
<froud> enrico, what was the command for commiters to do a first time checkout from svn?
<ChrisH> froud: should have been "svn co http://69.155.172.150/faq/trunk"
* enrico hands a hot, creamy cappuccino to ChrisH 
<ChrisH> enrico: Ah, very good, sir. The change is for you.
<froud> ChrisH, hi. I mean for commiters
<froud> commiters
<froud> http://user.name@69.155.172.150/faq/trunk
<ChrisH> froud: nope... you should get asked for the username and password during your first commit IIRC
<abelli> enrico: hot, creamy cappuccino in Taiwan?
<abelli> good morning everyone
<froud> morning
<froud> ChrisH, not sure about that
<enrico> abelli: you'd be surprised
<ChrisH> The taiwanese cappu can't be any worse than what I have on my desk.
<abelli> enrico: well...
<froud> is it not better to do svn co http://username@69.155.172.150/faq/trunk and then enter user and pass when prompted on first checkout
<ChrisH> . o O ( if only the machines wouldn't be so expensive ) O o .
<ChrisH> froud: I didn't need it. The repository is readable for everyone anyway. And the check-in prompt automatically.
<enrico> Turns out one of the guys at the local LUG is a coffee fanatic
<abelli> enrico
<froud> ChrisH, OK
<enrico> http://lento.uncasino.it/enrico/store/ProfessionalToni.jpg
<enrico> For people who don't believe me
<abelli> ...im off ciao
<sivang> morning alll
<enrico> Morning sivang !
<froud> boker
<sivang> morning froud  :) 
<sivang> morning enrico!
<sivang> any news?
<abelli> ciao
<froud> working ;-)
<enrico> sivang: ehi, I posted like 10 messages in the list, and you ask me "any news?" :)
<froud> abelli, going so soon
<sivang> hehe
<sivang> enrico: ok, I'll fire up mutt. I pretty used to it although using only "q" arrows and enter, m and y and d 
<sivang> :)
<sivang> enrico: but it makes you much more productive then when using evo or mozmail
<sivang> :)
<enrico> eh.  Now you have to learn how to use 'l'
<enrico> 'l' and 'o' ROCK!
<sivang> what does l and o do?
<sivang> enrico: btw, youre muttrc rocks!
<sivang> easy color , navigation 
<enrico> 'l' is 'limit'.  It allows you to filter messages.  For example, l enrico  shows you only messages having to do with me
<abelli> hey ppl... daniels didnt sleep for some night to get x.org working..
<abelli> why not thunderbird
<abelli> it's so... so... graphical..
<sivang> abelli: when you get used to mutt, you'll understand :)
<enrico> Then you can use modifiers: "l ~f enrico" shows messages FROM me; "l ~b Sivan" shows messages that talk about you, and so on
<ChrisH> Outlook 2003 is also very graphical. :P
<sivang> ChrisH: ;-)
<abelli> well.. why not pine then?
<enrico> ~h header, ~t "to".  Then you do "l ~=" to see duplicated messages and "l ~F" to see messages you flagged important
<ChrisH> License issues. :)
<abelli> or just an mta
<sivang> enrico: lemme try those :)
<enrico> Important: "l ." to remove the filter
<sivang> enrico: if I have an ssh key, i need just to copy it to the host machine and it will grant me access?
<sivang> enrico: I am alrady using this pub ssh key to access 2 other machines..
<enrico> sivang: yes (the public key part, obviously).  You can use ssh-copy-id for it: it's much easier and less error-prone
<sivang> enrico: why thank you yet for another piece of unix knowhow!
<sivang> btw people, enrico's traffic summaries are superb.
<ChrisH> ...and dangerous...
<enrico> ChrisH: ehi, you were a hero in yesterday's one!
<ChrisH> enrico: Because I did a simple commit of a few lines in the README? :)
<sivang> hehe, what could you ask for more? there's some comedy, moral, tips, tricks and well, important stuff we tend to forget now and then.
<sivang> it's like the perfect sequal for the family to watch on holidays
<ChrisH> sivang: Is there a TV channel for the Doc Team already? :)
<enrico> I'm mounting the transmitter antenna now as I speak :)
<ChrisH> enrico: I'm happy if the first sentence is not "ChrisH complained..." :)
<enrico> ChrisH: come on.  Let me find it for you
<enrico> ChrisH: http://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-doc/2004-December/000824.html look for "ChrisH answered in detail"
<sivang> "..many people have been talking to
<sivang> 	  screw everything that has been worked on and do it
<sivang> 	  differently
<sivang> "
<sivang> :)
<sivang> very good :
<sivang> Wiki is more a draft place or a place to organise. I think
<sivang>           it's okay for that purpose
<sivang> I think this should be quoted for future generation so they'll know what mistakes to avoid.
* sivang agrees 100% with ChrisH about the wiki's role in documenting a project.
<sivang> and I like this also :"
<sivang> Let's be open-minded. If it's nice, let's use it. Some aspects
<sivang>           are pretty neat.
<ChrisH> enrico: Okay, I'm convinced. :)
<abelli> can someone suggest a free antivirus for win32?
<enrico> abelli: Ubuntu
<abelli> ...dont swear... just remind the meaning of ubuntu :)
<abelli> enrico: i know.. that.. im just installing it.. with my brand new fatx module..
<abelli> but the owner of the computer has many visual c++ programs..
<enrico> abelli: install ubuntu into a vmware box and stop using windoes :)
<abelli> and win32 will be around until the porting under unix will be finished..
<abelli> enrico: im sorry im win32 free since september 2002
<abelli> never ever handled a ms product until sunday
<sivang> abelli: fatx module?
<abelli> yep.. fatx is the fs used by xbox
<abelli> its part of the project RULE... Run Ubuntu Linux Everywhere
<sivang> abelli: wowo cooool
<sivang> so you have an xbox running ubuntu?
<abelli> yes nice...
<abelli> sivang: absolutely not.. 
<enrico> abelli: You should publish something about that, like a Wiki page or something like that
<abelli> enrico: don't worry.. it's not ready.
<abelli> it's the first module ever written by me..
<abelli> i changed my nick... only because i used "abelli" in it... 
<abelli> and when i released it to testers...
<abelli> it was too late..
<abelli> to change. in some weeks it'll be public.
<abelli> im also waiting for mako approval.. RULE is a bit temporary as name
<abelli> what about clamav?
<sivang> abelli: so you know how to hack kernel modules code....
* sivang wishes he knew how to do that
<abelli> sivang: it's the first module.
<abelli> sivang: im far away from ppl like fabbione, mjg
<sivang> abelli: I'd settle for this, believe me.
<sivang> does RULE has a website yet?
<abelli> actually is just a groupware at ubuntuitalia.org/gware or sth like that..
<sivang> abelli: when was the project started?
<abelli> a week before mataro'
<sivang> abelli: where do you learn to hack kernel modules?
<abelli> don't use hack.. im far before that point:
<sivang> abelli: hey! an Idea! why to use M$'s crappy fs, and not plain ext3/xfs/reiser whatever linux support?
<abelli> starting with k&R the c programming language, The Linux Kernel, 2.4 Kernel Internals,
<abelli> and a bit of embedding linux di hollabaugh
<sivang> abelli: don't get modest on me! A guy who enjoyes sovling descrete math problem, kernel hacking is nothing big to him :))
<sivang> abelli: I tried sometime ago to read 2.4, but if you use 2.6, how does it help you? or not much has changed?
<abelli> well.. i need to get into the mood of something..
<abelli> just consider i never used c before..
<abelli> it was like "divide et impera" [or whatever it is..:)] 
<sivang> abelli: that's exactly what I was talking about :)
<sivang> abelli: devide and conquer?
<abelli> yes...ok... let's leave apart compliments when i'll marry 
<abelli> Cat Zeta Jones
<sivang> abelli: heheheh :)
<sivang> abelli: I'd prefer Jessica Alba, Cameron Diaz, Mel lisboa? :)
<abelli> Cameron is WonderFul..
<abelli> but let's be productive...
<abelli> otherwise enrico'll get crossed.. 
<sivang> abelli: right :)
<abelli> and we don't want enrico to get crossed right ;)
<sivang> abelli: ofcourse not!
<sivang> enrico: how do I set mutt to use my ssh keys?
<sivang> froud: ping
<enrico> sivang: mutt to use ssh?  To do what?
<sivang> enrico: do impas using the ssh keys
<sivang> enrico: instead of asking me the password everytime
<enrico> sivang: ah, oh, yes.  Uhm... look for "preauth" in mutt's documentation
<enrico> tunnel="ssh -q mailhost.net /usr/local/libexec/imapd"
<enrico> "preauth" is a good search key in mutt's documentation
<sivang> not in the man page..
<sivang> going to the web docs
<enrico> sivang: /usr/share/doc/mutt/manual.txt.gz
<froud> Uh Humm
<froud> enrico
<froud> ChrisH, 
<enrico> froud: yes?
<froud> sivang, 
<froud> OK I have my document ready
<froud> need to discuss
<sivang> froud: here
<froud> ChrisH, wanted me to fix https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/DocBook
<froud> me thinks my document replaces most of this 
<sivang> enrico: looks it doesn't care to explain much how to use it, just add this to the mutrrc file?
<froud> do I add a new page or do I modify the exiting one 
<enrico> sivang: should just need to add that, yes
<froud> my doc replaces about 90%
<enrico> froud: You can rename the current page to OldDocBook and make a new DocBook; then link OldDocBook in it
<froud> Hmm link old docbook to it
<froud> maybe the other way around
<froud> no matter well sort it
<sivang> froud: we should port the tsf's learn linux admin guide to ubuntu from debian 3.0 :)
<froud> do you know ho wto create a debian spec file
<sivang> froud: spec file? I am not sure..
<enrico> I'm sorry I'm ignorant with rpm packaging
<froud> what about deb
<enrico> I do debs :)
* sivang is also doing bits of them :)
<ChrisH> froud: Does it replace most of it really? I think we need something which is customised for the doc team work.
<froud> ChrisH, see https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/AboutTheUbuntuCoreDocumentationProject
<froud> draft in progress
<froud> btw does anyone want to fomat it I dont know the Z wki stuff
<froud> :-)
<froud> enrico, I want to packaged the project at http://learnlinux.tsf.org.za. Perhaps you can make a deb spec and create the package
* froud plays with zwiki structured text
<froud> how to markup headings ?
<froud> ah ha,  I see said the blind man to the deaf mute
<froud> Hmm not good. How to make sub headings
<froud> ah ha,  I see said the blind man to the deaf mute
<froud> much beetter
<sivang> froud: please use moin markup
<sivang> we already agreed about it
<sivang> if you use rest markup, some people wouldn't be able to modifiy your pages if they need to.
<sivang> froud: https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/AboutTheUbuntuCoreDocumentationProject must be abbrivated before it can be really used, we shouldn't force our contributor to read so long pages..they will have to suffer enough with the docbook and other core utils guides..
<froud> wont my formatting help ?
<sivang> froud: I feel that we need to create a DocteamProcedures page, just like the HoaryProcedures page, and seperate the technicalities from the description of the project goals aims and responsibility.
<sivang> froud: this is what I was trying to do with my first pages, so we got the /UDP page and /HowDoc from where we could probably link to technical instructions and prequisities IMHO
<sivang> enrico?
<sivang> ChrisH: ?
<sivang> (oppinions)
<froud> Well that's is good, but for now I dont have a big picture, so am juts putting it here. 
<sivang> froud: ok, maybe we can afterwards devide and conquer
<froud> sure I put this page here so long cause people wnated something like this. The content is there now. We can use it as we please.
<sivang> froud: :)
<froud> I still need to add things like how the repos is structured, how to make, what is globale.ent etc. But I think this is another page
<sivang> froud: yes sure, this could be the docteam procedures overview page.
<sivang> ideally, I would opt for pages that are as big as this : https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/DocBook
<sivang> and try to give as much useful info in as must less size, so we won't loose pople on account of reading long articles,
* froud thinks to himself, "Gee wiki sucks."
<sivang> wiki is good for some very _specific_ uses,
<sivang> for all the others,
<sivang> it sucks badly.
<sivang> :)
<sivang> when someone is enough interested int he UDP, he should probably read the docbook guide to the docteam
<sivang> :)
<sivang> using the wiki for organization and plannig is actually pretty ok IMHO
<sivang> Now that I know that (from you) this doc is not the most accurate that I can find for using docbook, but it set me up starting early , and made me enthusiastic about docbook
<froud> ok dudes, that's it for me for today. I must do some paying work :-)
<froud> b c'ing ya
<sivang> froud: katerz
<sivang> eh, laterz
* enrico was having dinner
<enrico> froud: I can create the debian/directory for the http://learnlinux.tsf.org.za if you want: just send me the released tarball
<enrico> sivang: I would avoid to create yet another page for now, and maybe just use the FAQ until an entry becomes so long that it spins off
<sivang> enrico: do man install-docs ---> this _is_ what we were loooking for _all_ our rigsteration needs.
<sivang> enrico: that is , against scrollkeeper, doc-base, whtever
<sivang> :)
* sivang thanks seb128 (who's not here) for providing the insight.
<enrico> cool!
<sivang> yes :) it's amazing what a "go install doc-base source" instruction can teach yoiu :)
* sivang cannot type. frozen fingers.
<enrico> so cold there?
<sivang> actually, it's 20C outside,
<sivang> but the house is like _frozen
<sivang> we can't seem to let the heat from the inside get in,
<sivang> which is a plus on summer time.
<sivang> enrico: this depend line should also be added to facilitate for install-docs
<sivang>  ${perl:Depends}, scrollkeeper, libunicode-string-perl
<sivang> however the rules file, I would have to read the whole make manual to understand
<enrico> sivang: you tell me what you want the rules file to do and I can try and tell you how to do it
<enrico> (but then, it's always good to read the whole make manual anyway)
<sivang> enrico: I'll read the manual, I want to know how to make pure debian build script that , really rulez :)
<sivang> enrico: that doesn't use cryptic cddbs :)
<enrico> sivang: you're welcome to use debhelper
<enrico> sivang: maybe it's better to start with debhelper and then see
<enrico> cdbs is a great tool, but maybe it's great only when you know well what's happening
<ChrisH> Perhaps one should only start to use cdbs when it's clear what debhelper does. :)
<sivang> enrico: sounds like it , yes.
<froud> under what license do we release documentation?
<froud> FDL or Creative Common ShareAlike 2.0 ?
<hornbeck> I think they where talking CC
<froud> anyone second that?
<froud> Is it not better to use FDL for our purpose?
<hornbeck> in all honesty, I could care less about license
<hornbeck> as long as it is free for others to use
<froud> I want to add the LICENSE file to root of trunk
<hornbeck> right
<sivang> froud: gfdl
<hornbeck> sivang: really?
<sivang> froud: canonical wants GFDL basically, but each writer can decided per his doc
<sivang> hornbeck: yes :)
<hornbeck> I thought Enrico sent a email saying we where using CC
<sivang> hornbeck: hmm
<hornbeck> let me check the mail log
<froud> please thanks
<sivang> This is what I recall from the c0nference
<sivang> :)
<sivang> Mark also said that I think.
<froud> sivang, we need to decide on one lic
<froud> two is just a way to problems
<froud> IMHO GFDL is better for our purpose
<sivang> froud: this is something also longly discussed before you joined us :) They said each writer can use his own license on docs he's creating it, by they'd prefer GFDL
<froud> Dont get me wrong I like CC SA but I dont think it is right in this case
<sivang> GFDL present obvious barriers for debian if they want to use our works..
<hornbeck> I am not finding it
<froud> What barriers
<froud> Ubuntu is under GPL right?
<froud> or is it lesser
<hornbeck> gpl
<froud> so GFDL compliment GPL
<enrico> hornbeck: sivang does not read e-mail, it's widely known :)
<froud> http://www.gnu.org/copyleft/fdl.html
<hornbeck> I guess :-)
* enrico looks for link
<froud> I see no obsticalss for Debian to use this lic
* froud thanks enrico 
<enrico> sivang: http://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-doc/2004-December/000759.html
<enrico> It's been much more time than "before Christmas" as well
<enrico> (I have to grab mako for changes to propagate into website documentation)
<sivang> enrico: what changes? we can edit some areas of the website.
* sivang is hit by how much he doesn't read email, but that is going to change after the 10th of Jan
<enrico> sivang: like writing what the license is, possibly even in the wiki edit page
<froud> enrico,  I am going to place both lics into the LICENSE FILE this way people can edit it under svn
<sivang> enrico: was this decided over in the Mataro sessions? with lulu and freinds?
<sivang> enrico: yes :)
<enrico> sivang: mako has been talking with sabdfl during the conf, and that is the outcome
<froud> guys focus please
<sivang> eh great. I should have an RSS feed from my mailboxes..
<froud> enrico,  I dont see a bugzilla for this task
<enrico> froud: you're right
* froud wants people to use bugzilla more
* sivang notes all that he suggested a CC compatilbe license long ago. Wonders if enrico could find it on the archives.:)
<enrico> I hate bugzilla so much that I can never reach it
<froud> do you want to open it or shall I
<enrico> I'll give it a try now
<froud> please assign to mako and inlcude the link to the message above. thanks
* froud hugs enrico 
<froud> enrico, is the second person that does not like bugzilla
<froud> if people dont like it why not change it
<froud> but until then please use bugzilla people
<sivang> froud: we must be more forgiving by means of our communication and report, or else we would drive away alot of prospective contributors.
<froud> its the only way for us to track stuff
<sivang> froud: we are awaiting the bug dawn of Malone
<sivang> :)
<ChrisH> Who hugs me? :)
* sivang hugs ChrisH 
* froud give ChrisH a slap with a wet fish
<froud> sivang, no everyone must use bugzilla
<sivang> froud: I cannot ask this from people who are interested in contributing,
<froud> sivang, you'll thank me when it ocmes near to release date
<enrico> froud: well, the idea is that bugzilla will be replaced with malone
<sivang> I am allowing them the adjustment time
<sivang> ChrisH: where is the gnome-love mumble docteam topic?
<froud> If when then, promises
<enrico> froud: I hope it happens soon.  In the meantime yes, who can should use mozilla; who can't should as others to use it for them
<sivang> ChrisH: we should put it back...:)
<enrico> So, if some of you really can't use mozilla, you can drop me a note and I'll do things for you
<froud> I dont care how stuff get sthere it just must
<sivang> enrico: good
<froud> sivang, at this moment nobody knows what who is doing and what who is not doing. There are things nobody is doing
<enrico> While I'm here, I'll dump my todo-list into bugzilla
<froud> Now you are talking that way we can take a look and see if we can take ownership
<froud> for som eof the stuff
<froud> team work people, team work
* froud gets of his saop box
<froud> soap
<sivang> froud: team work means also catering for the less technically able people :)
<froud> sivang, as enrico said ifthey cant then they can ask for help and I am sure we will help +1 to help enrico 
<sivang> froud: sure :) sorry for repeating myself.
<froud> subject voting system
<sivang> voting system?
<sivang> politics?!?!
* sivang scratches :)
<froud> people need to vote on issue
* sivang is now the official DocTeam trouble maker :)
<froud> in th email messages it is hard to see who said they will be helping with what
<sivang> ok, the wiki is _excellent_ for that.
<sivang> it also enables anonymous botes
<froud> Short for "I will help" = +1
<sivang> votes.
* sivang enrico's spanking.
<froud> Dont agree -1
<froud> Dont care 0
<froud> Helps keep messages terse
* froud was flamed for long messages
<sivang> ok, prequisitie = must write your name next to you vote,
<sivang> to prevent duplicate votes.
<froud> Hmm why
<froud> you are replying to the message
<sivang> OH
<sivang> I though if usiung the wikiu for it
<froud> email dude email yes that means you must read it :-)
* enrico sniff process change :)
<sivang> froud: I'm reding it, just not in the mornings :)
* enrico points to DocumentationTeamWishList :)
<sivang> usually after I finish some stuff
<sivang> enrico: noted.
<froud> Yep must be in bugzilla
* sivang stopped
<sivang> enrico: you should have an anti docteam underground and process changes sniffer scrript
<sivang> :)
<froud> enrico, No need for DocumentationTeamWishList when you have bugzilla
<ChrisH> sivang: Feel free to change the /topic - it's not fixed here.
<sivang> ChrisH: do you have it saved somehwhere? I don't recall the exact words..
<sivang> enrico: added voting process to docteamwishlist
<ChrisH> sivang: Uh. not really. :(
<hornbeck> you guys are confusing
<sivang> ChrisH: never mind, I'll fix it - I have it on my docs.
<sivang> docs=logs
<enrico> froud: in this case, it's needed to avoid people thinking that this is something that people agreed to do
<enrico> froud: we're still in times of process change alergy (and I wonder what will plovs say of the recent reorganizations when he'll come back)
<sivang> enrico: true. we shjould have a way to show that a certain process or system has not yet been adopted intil a proper discussion is done about it.
<froud> enrico, let just agree to agree
<sivang> enrico: I hope plovs doesn't leave the project :)
<froud> talk to much do to little
<sivang> enrico: you recall sparks angry split out :)
<hornbeck> sivang: sparkes was my fault
<enrico> froud: I quite agree.  Lots of text lands outside of <para> tags (or even outside of the repository itself)
<froud> enrico, things need to be fater
<froud> faster
<sivang> hornbeck: I am not sure, if would have followed the Ubuntu CoC, he should hae known the mistakes happen, and misunderstanding also :) and take it less harsh.
<hornbeck> sivang: he felt that I was taking his ideas as my own
<hornbeck> because I was looking at Debian docs
* froud off to do  more work
<sivang> hornbeck: well that's over now.
<hornbeck> yeah
<ChrisH> Faster? How fast can things go? Am I the only here who has does doc team work in his spare time because he has a job?
<hornbeck> I only do it in spare time
<hornbeck> I work all the time, than family
<hornbeck> than docs
<sivang> sure, we are only voulenteers.
<sivang> nothing bad with it, IMHO
<hornbeck> I see nothing wrong with it
<hornbeck> I wish I had more time to do it
<froud> ChrisH, not true
<hornbeck> when I started I had all the time in the world
* ChrisH feels pushed :)
<froud> ChrisH, not true
* sivang LOLs
<hornbeck> I think alittle push is needed, because we are not really doing much 
<sivang> ok, but we've had some pushing, now let's see what comes out.
<froud> I do ubuntu in my spare time :-)
<ChrisH> We are doing a whole lot - just not anything that is visible to anyone outside the Chaos Team.
<hornbeck> I have felt motivated by froud, seeing him do alot has made me want to really get working again
<froud> ChrisH, It is becaus eof this that I need to maximize my spare tuime.
<froud> I find myslef holding on stuff for more than a day
<ChrisH> froud: Ah, you mean I better not be online during your spare time. ;)
<froud> ChrisH, no
<sivang> Let us put aside the planning for a sec, 
<sivang> get a list of content crying tags in the sources,
<sivang> and write.
<froud> ChrisH, I am saying that decision need to be fast
<sivang> froud: could you provide some?
<froud> cause we have only spare time
<ChrisH> froud: Sure.
<froud> I have found that I could not do some things in this time cause of no decision
<ChrisH> froud: Although you will probably admit that you don't really lack freedom here.
* enrico notes that we decided to stop deciding and to just commit new paragraphs until something gets finished
* sivang is out for food
<froud> Normally decisions should take about 24 hours
<enrico> svn is in place, accounts are there, book layout has been defined
<enrico> The repository has even been cleaned up recently, thanks to froud
<ChrisH> froud: I just feel that we are fine-tuning a car that has never been driving a mile.
<froud> yes but I make proposal on list and nobody answers
<enrico> I don't see anything missing for people to just go and write paragraphs
<froud> so I just have to go ahead
<ChrisH> froud: Which does not mean that I don't value your work. It's great. Just that it's not visible yet.
<enrico> froud: I work around that by setting a deadline on proposals: if noone answers, after the deadline I do it
<enrico> It saves lots of frustration
<ChrisH> froud: If you make 10 proposals on the list during one day it's really hard to determine what is important and what is just information to keep the team on topic.
<froud> OK that's fine by me
<ChrisH> enrico: You better not recommend that to froud. Or we will have a 5 second timeout until decisions are done automagically. ;)
<froud> [Proposal] 
<enrico> froud: just use a reasonable deadline :)
<froud> [Warning] 
<froud> [Announce] 
* sivang agrees with ChrisH 
<froud> [OT] 
<sivang> froud: and keep one proposal per week.
<sivang> :)
<froud> enrico, what's a reasonable time
* sivang is out
* ChrisH votes for froud-proposal-quota (FPQ)
<enrico> There's also to be said that various people are kind of in christmas vacations at the moment
<froud> :-)
<enrico> froud: My rule of thumb is something reasonable for people in various timezones to get the message in the morning and answer to it in the evening
<froud> OK I got the idea. Seems fair
<ChrisH> froud: Is most of the restructuring done already? So I can enter my contents without having to fear they become useless? All entities set? All structures in final position?
<enrico> froud: and then I'd put in some more days if I think the question is non-trivial
<froud> Chrish you just hack away let SVN do the work
<froud> ChrisH, trust it
<enrico> ChrisH: yes!  Go! Go! GO!
<ChrisH> My point is: I don't care how the icon looks or when CSSs are finished. The problem was that the framework changed every now and then. This must be avoided.
<ChrisH> enrico: Sir, yes, Sir.
<froud> ChrisH, this does notstop commits
<ChrisH> enrico: Since all my hardware is running again and Marco has finished getting his second tooth I'm about to get my pen wet today. :)
<froud> as I said let SVN do the work
<froud> As a practice I always do svn up before commits
<ChrisH> froud: Letting svn do the work let to a couple of ".rej" files lately because it couldn't merge my changes if I didn't commit instantly.
<froud> Always to svn up before commit
<froud> then do svn status
<ChrisH> Does that really help? Can it resolve conflicts?
<froud> No you can see problems
<froud> better
<enrico> Well, ideally now the only big changes happening in the repository are about content anyway
<enrico> It seems to me that we are done with moving directories and the like
<froud> enrico, yes this is true
<ChrisH> enrico: Your daily posting on what has been done is really nice to see the progress. And at least it motivates me into doing stuff. :)
<froud> I have a few files tomove to libs
<enrico> ChrisH: thanks!  It's sweet music for me to read that!
<froud> but no maj structure changes
* froud also thanks enrico  for daily psotings
<enrico> Thanks!!
<ChrisH> enrico: Just wanted to tell you that your existence is not entirely useless. :)
<froud> ok later
<enrico> froud: later!
* enrico his flooded by his own bug reports
<enrico> But I now have nice numbers all around my personal TODO list
<enrico> And I start appreciating the thought of being able to reassign some of those things to other people :)
<mako> enrico: i think i just got one of them :)
* froud thanks enrico for patch to https://bugzilla.ubuntu.com/show_bug.cgi?id=5067. NOW FIXED.
<ChrisH> <stupid>What is a "catalog"?</stupid>
* froud point to http://www.sagehill.net/docbookxsl/Catalogs.html
* froud add https://bugzilla.ubuntu.com/show_bug.cgi?id=5079 "Write Ubuntu Documentation License"
<enrico> froud: oh, that patch worked then
<enrico> cool!
<froud> So far now we need that XSL to work with catalogs
<froud> but must do some other stuff on wiki first
<ChrisH> froud: I'll digest that later... thanks for the link.
<froud> enrico, https://bugzilla.ubuntu.com/show_bug.cgi?id=4284 This is not in the current documents in svn
<froud> The Ubuntu Installation Guide, chapter 2.1. Supported Hardware contains phrases:
<froud> "Debian 4.10 supports ...", "Debian 4.10 ships with ..."
<froud> For example:
<froud> http://archive.ubuntulinux.org/ubuntu/dists/warty/main/installer-i386/current/doc/manual/en/ch02s01.html
<froud> It is confusing.
<mako> it's also incorrect
<froud> ok this is from the debian docs
<froud> are we patching debian docs too
<abelli> BUON GIORNO MAKO, RE DEI BABBARI
<mako> heh :)
<mako> abelli: ciao babbaro
<mako> froud: it's incorrect for either ubuntu or debian
<mako> it's either Debain 3.x or Ubuntu 4.10
<froud> Ok but we dont have a tree of Debian documents in svn
<froud> so why is it our bugzilla?
<froud> do we also patch the debian tree
<froud> if so then we should have debian docs in our repository and patch back our patches to debian
<froud> mako, right or wrong?
<mako> eh..
<mako> ok..
<mako> so the installation manual is taken from debian
<mako> and then rebranded basically
<mako> colin, who did those docs
<mako> did not add anything significant that would need to pushed back to debian
<mako> additionally, he didn't do a perfect job of patching/rebranding the documentation
<froud> OK, fine its a custom layer
<mako> so he got the version number but left lots of mention of debian.. including some incohrent stuff
<froud> do we take care of this?
<mako> referring to versions of debian that don't exist
<mako> it's a bug
<froud> ok so where are the sources now?
<mako> i don't *exactly* know but perhap sin the installer source package
<mako> kamion will know
<mako> let me ask
<froud> ok, me thinks they should be moved to docs svn
<froud> We just need a pristine of their HEAD for that doc
<mako> froud: this might create a slightly insane situation :)
<mako> because we already have it in two different version control systems
<froud> yikes!!!!
<mako> and as you know
<mako> which, if this were baz or bitkeeper or even svk, might be fine
<mako> but...
<mako> this is not really svn's strong point
<mako> branches in seperate repos
<froud> svn does this fine
<mako> froud: seperate repositories?!
<froud> yes it can be done :-)
<mako> dude, it's a centralized VCS model.. there is no inter-repository merging
<froud> tips an dtricks it can be done
<mako> svk was written specifically because it doesn't :)
<froud> but I think since it is a doc it should be managed in our repos
<mako> if it's already in a source package in the archive
<mako> it might be nice to simply branch within that VCS
<froud> me points mako to http://svnbook.red-bean.com/en/1.0/svn-book.html#svn-ch-7-sect-4
<froud> mako, " branch within that VCS" and we have little or no control for our applicatin level
<mako> froud: i'm familiar with vendor branches.. it is not the same thing as decentralized VCS
<mako> froud: CVS has vendor branches (sort of)
<froud> ok, but why hav eit over there?
* enrico goes to bed
<mako> enrico: good night! :)
<froud> chow
<enrico> Bye!
<abelli> enrico..
<mako> we're not going to go through every package and take out every piece of documentation and customize it
<mako> we can't extract every manpage, etc and put in the respoitory and then track differences over time
<mako> right now, the debian-installer maintaer is doing a (Relatively) good job of
<mako> keeping the documentation in sync with debian
<mako> because he's active upstream
<froud> ok so we have to track diifferent repositories
<mako> we are *already* tracking two
<mako> well, colin is
<froud> which ones
<mako> upstream DI
<mako> ubuntu DI
<mako> and now doc-team
<froud> ok
<mako> i asked colin to pop over here
<froud> do you have the uri for upstream
<Kamion> I hear there's some talk about the installation manual?
<froud> yes
<mako> Kamion: so, there are few open bugs against the installation manual.. and the doc team is willing to take them on
<froud> hello
<Kamion> are there? where?
<mako> https://bugzilla.ubuntu.com/show_bug.cgi?id=4284
<mako> not bad ones
<mako> that's purely branding
<Kamion> TBH those are much easier for me to fix; I did all the branding work on that manual, I probably just missed a bit
<froud> Sure
<mako> alright
<Kamion> also fixing it involves a debian-installer upload :)
<froud> Kamion, hav eyou taken a lok at the coc repos lately
<Kamion> coc?
<froud> doc
<mako> Kamion: do you d-i in svn?
<Kamion> froud: no
<Kamion> mako: no
<mako> upstream is svn, no?
<froud> Pleas edo sometime
<mako> tla^W^Wbaz?
<Kamion> sure, I don't do Ubuntu stuff there though
<froud> That's the thing we have docs everywhere
<Kamion> froud: my goal for the installation manual is to stay close to the upstream installation manual and feed changes back to them
<Kamion> froud: I'm FAR more interested in upstream's repository than in yours, I'm afraid ;)
<Kamion> mako: no imports, blame lifeless :P
<froud> Fine just thought to help
<mako> Kamion: i was already blaming lifeless :)
<mako> froud: alright, sounds like a bit of a non-issue then
<mako> Kamion: so, if folks want to help out with the installation manual, how should it happen?
<mako> lets say, non-branding work
<mako> email you? :)
<mako> and then you figure it out
<Kamion> mako: if it doesn't include the string "Ubuntu", it would be ideal for it to happen upstream
<Kamion> i.e. if it's not specific to us
<Kamion> failing that, the best I can offer for the moment is to e-mail me, yeah
<froud> Kamion, I have been doing some major changes in our svn
<froud> new structures and abilities ofr profiling etc
* mako nods to kamion
<Kamion> froud: do you have the installation manual in your repository?
<froud> I have also added a level of indirection to the docs that averts problelms such as that in the inst doc
<froud> no 
<mako> Kamion: that is the question that started this conversation :)
<Kamion> good :)
<mako> Kamion: that was basically my answer :)
<Kamion> froud: I'm working with debian-installer-manual upstream to get that improved
<Kamion> but there are obvious fundamental translation issues
<froud> can we do a vendor branch in our svn
<mako> froud: with responsive maintainers/upstreams that care a lot about docs and keeping them in sync (like we have for d-i). it's great to have the code and the docs tightly linked from a source management perspective
<Kamion> froud: debian-installer-manual is part of the debian-installer source package which is the installer build system. I really don't want it off in a separate repository.
<Kamion> I respect what the doc team's doing, but please don't fork
* mako forgets his bugzilla pw once a week
<Kamion> ok, missing branding fixed now I think
<mako> cool
<mako> i was trying to reassing that bug to you but i can't log in
* mako will go find his laptop with the pw saved
<Kamion> grabbing the bug now
<froud> Kamion, ok. Do take a look at some of the DocBook application level stuff were have started to do in our repos. You may find it useful
<mako> froud: URI?
<Kamion> froud: I'm not the person who needs to look at this :)
<Kamion> that would be fjp upstream
<Kamion> I strongly suggest talking to him to see if you guys can cooperate on branding infrastructure; that would be very useful
* mako nods
<Kamion> can there be a doc component in bugzilla for the installation manual, so I get those bugs?
<froud> mako, http://69.155.172.150/faq/trunk
<mako> wait.. who is fjp?
<Kamion> Frans Pop
<mako> i don't know frans pop
<froud> Kamion, asking me
<Kamion> froud: whoever cares :)
<Kamion> mako: Dutch d-i translator, does various manual infrastructure and localisation hacking
<froud> I will make proposal to split bugs into the various manuals
<mako> froud: having a d-i upstream install manaual, one in the source package, and one in the doc-team repos would be unmanagable
<froud> mako, fine, no worries
<mako> froud: as would any other similar situations with other manuals
<mako> froud: if everyone was using baz, it would make it easier, but still probably unmanagable
<Kamion> particularly with regard to merging new changes; svn isn't good enough at merging for that to work with a vendor branch or whatever
<Kamion> it would be fine for taking a snapshot and thenceforth ignoring upstream, but we're not in that business :)
<froud> Ok
<mako> you'll find that vender branches are a not-so-great tecyhnical solution to not so technical problem
<mako> Kamion: have you played with svk?
<froud> Really I think our changes would be small
<froud> ok going to eat c ya later
<mako> Kamion: it looks cool.. but, alas, i'm committed to the Church of Baz :)
<mako> froud: cool. ttys
<froud> Thanks mako thanks Kamion 
<Kamion> mako: not personally, I've seen a fair amount of talk about it
<Kamion> froud: unfortunately I have to say from experience that the changes to the installation manual are substantial and hard to merge.
<mako> source-level VCS are not optimised for dealing with changes to documentations.. diffs and merging are easier with code
<jiyuu0> mako, thanks in advance for arranging the CDs :)
<mako> jiyuu0: hey no problem.. it's been send to the factory as a high prioty order already
<mako> jiyuu0: i suspect you should get them by early next week
<jiyuu0> mako, thank u very much... as next week wed we are recruiting members
<mako> that's great
<mako> jiyuu0: i hope you can guys can help lead up a malaysian country team :)
<mako> it sounds very exciting
<jiyuu0> we are very keen... hitesh is handling that
<jiyuu0> \
<sivang> mako: what about my cds? :)
<froud> mako, and mine. I ordered via the web site weeks ago
<froud> 20 copies to distribute through the lugs here
<mako> froud: it takes 4-6 weeks
<mako> froud: i sent a list to the shipment folks yesterday though so it was probably in there
<froud> sivang, read the email
<froud> ok cool
<mako> froud: along with 14,000 other people :)
<froud> he he :-)
* froud confesses he is running SuSE 9..2
<sivang> froud: doc list email?
<froud> yes
<sivang> mako: what is the apporoach for translated docs?
<mako> *silence*
<mako> that's kind of like saying you have cancer
<sivang> froud: what do you think? should we tell local teams to wait until frist english docs are released?
* froud has ubuntu on box next to him
<mako> sivang: yes, there needs to be a documentation freeze before the release
* sivang recalles some talks with Adi who is going to be the professional translation coordinater about some date that needs to be decided as a release date, so translation can start.
* froud needs to kill it and install an env for building from source
<mako> sivang: it can be at the same time as the gnome string freeze if you like
<sivang> mako: now this is one process which is urgent to decide of, IMHO
<sivang> mako: when is the gnome string freeze?
<mako> sivang: i don't have the gnome release schedule memorized but i'm sure you can fiund it
<mako> :)
<sivang> mako: yes I can :)
<froud> sivang, I thought our target was April
* sivang should be really current on those, as supposed to add priv groups and bridge inteface to gnome system tools :)
<sivang> froud: april is release
<sivang> we need to freeze to english docs _before_
<sivang> so to let time for the professional companies,
<froud> hold i will check when gnome freezes
<sivang> and the local teams.
<mako> listen, you can start auditing or finishing documentaton at the gnome UI freeze
<mako> and then you finalizing english docs at the string freeze
<sivang> mako: ok, I'll cehck that date.
* sivang knows that future freeze is 10th
<mako> feature freeze
<mako> they're all future freezes :)
<sivang> so we have tog et something doen till the 10th?
<froud> The 10th of what?
<mako> january
<sivang> mako:can anybody provide a time frame that will be needed to translations?
<froud> ha hah ha
<mako> froud: what's so funny
<sivang> ok, we need some text going.
<froud> that's what
* sivang will finish his part of the handbook, and see what he can add to the others.
<froud> I just joined the team a few days ago
<mako> the feature freeze was supposed to be this week but was postponed because the whole distro team is away
<froud> I found svn very empty
<sivang> mako: could you ask adi or mark or whoever when do the professional translators want stable english docs?
<sivang> or expect at least..
<mako> froud: well it's a feature freeze.. meaning that the distro team has until jan to redefine the *features* that will be shipped
<sivang> so to get an idea,
<mako> froud: so it's not the end of the world
<froud> no
<sivang> froud: but if you're trying to implement a simple gui interface for enable cinternet connection sharing in gnome syste tools, then you are in  abig problem :)
<mako> sivang: in terms of translatable strings, those will be in mition up until string freeze in gnome
<mako> sivang: so lets work with that date in mind at the moment
<froud> who maintains a wall chart for us
<sivang> mako: I was more talking in terms of documentation strings..
<mako> sivang: i understand
<froud> I was look for it but foun zero
<mako> sivang: did you find the gnome string freeze
<mako> http://www.gnome.org/start/2.9/
<mako> string freeze: February 7th
<mako> ui freeze: January 24th
<mako> now, we are one month behind gnome
<sivang> mako: Feb 7th
<mako> and i think it's fine if we do a preview release w/o all of the translated docs
<froud> mako, do you guys build from GNOME CVS
<froud> I mean the doc team
<mako> froud: yes
<sivang> mako: you mean translat_able docs
<sivang> :)
<froud> you and who else
<mako> froud: well, i thinke we build from the development tarballs
<abelli> do you need translation?
<froud> OK so its not that autoconf stuff
<sivang> froud: autoconf?
<sivang> what does it have to do with autoconf?
<mako> froud: i don't think i undrestand your question
* sivang either.
<mako> sivang: listen would march 7th work fine for you?
<mako> that gives us 5 weeks to do translations
<sivang> mako: hmmm...let's start that as a thread on the mailing list,.
<sivang> I want to see what people think
<sivang> and how availalbe they think they can be
<froud> Some people build directly from CVS
<sivang> so I'll get and idea
<sivang> froud: I have a gnome CVS HEAD Install on my system.
<mako> froud: the tarballs are taken from CVS
<sivang> froud: gogole for jhbuild
<sivang> mako: I think we should push it a bit ealier, so to allow more time for translations.
<sivang> but I will write on the maling list see what can we get ready
* froud thanks sivang 
<mako> sivang: if you push it too early, you're not going to have very much to translate :)
<sivang> mako: but I don't want it also to happen the other way around,
<sivang> having too much to translate, and the translation teams waiting too much so they sprung their own unstramlined translations..
<sivang> this has already happend on rosetta
<sivang> mako: ask jordi about the cataln translation for d-i :)
<froud> mako, https://bugzilla.ubuntu.com/show_bug.cgi?id=5072 relates only to  Web Site?
<froud> Hmm yes said the blind man
<abelli> ..mmm.. do you need translational-forces?
<mako> froud: well the bug only relates to the website
<mako> froud: the licensing status will also relate to canonical sponsored documentation AFAIK
<mako> i mean, it's up to the docteam
<mako> we'd like people payed to work on docs to able to do it with our volunteers.
<mako> volunteers can, of course, choose to license their own documentation as they please
<mako> canonical can't (or won't at least) force people to use a certain license
<abelli> ifyouarelistening: ive got some ppl that would be very pleased to help translating
<sivang> mako: canonical is going to be paying people to do docs?
<abelli> sivang: not you..
<abelli> sivang: only italians..
<abelli> sivang: because they do it better ;)
<sivang> abelli: I know that's not me, just curious :)
<abelli> sivang: sorry it was just a joke..
<sivang> abelli: I know andrea! No offense takes
<abelli> sivang: italians.. do it better.. it's a stupid joke..
<abelli> sorry
* sivang hugs abelli
<sivang> abelli: Italian sure know to cook better then isralis !
<abelli> sivang: ...no... it wasn't about cooking.. but its over now.
<sivang> abelli: no worries buddy :)
<sivang> mako: I mean, professional translations?
<froud> mako, OK thanks
<mako> sivang: i'm not really sure about that.. i didn't even know adi was involved until i met her mataro
<sivang> mako: ah ok :)
<sivang> mako: so that makes our all convo about deadline pre translation redundent until we _would_ know anything for sure.
<mako> sivang: to some degree, setting these documentation team deadlines are up to use. i think 5 weeks for translations is reasonable.. especially it's only a bit over 5 weeks to write what we have by then
<mako> sivang: if it's unreasonable, we can deal with that
<sivang> mako: ok
<Burgundavia_> hey all
<sivang> hey Burgundavia_ 
<sivang> got some baz news for us?
<Burgundavia_> not much
<Burgundavia_> I currently have no internet access at my home
<Burgundavia_> Still on my laptop, but at the library
<sivang> Burgundavia_: eh
* sivang recalls libs as cousy, warm and full of babes.
<Burgundavia_> My plan for tonight is to really knuckle down and work on that baz stuff
<ChrisH> Yeah, let's screw the subversion archive and start baz! Someone give me a padded room. ;)
<Burgundavia_> hey, did I say that?
<ChrisH> Nah. :)
* ChrisH had a froudy day today...
<Burgundavia_> I am merely creating documentation so that we can
<ChrisH> And that's good. I'm actually interested to see if baz really kicks lower backs.
<Burgundavia_> Baz does look very cool
<Burgundavia_> I have had a hell of a week, so I haven't really been doing much
<ChrisH> Just ask...
* sivang is in for baz
<sivang> let's switch to it now, and if we all like it - port all the repo to it
<sivang> :)
<abelli> sivang: i think that the point is not if you like it.. you just have to do it. cozh it iz fhairly betther than shvhn;)
<sivang> abelli: I was joking, This kind of stuff need full approval by the doc contributors :)
<ChrisH> I vote against it - just for the sake of additional chaos. :)
<abelli> ChrisH: zut up and execute the Word..
<abelli> :)
<ChrisH> abelli: hey, you are the one with the redmond affinity :)
<abelli> development development development... actually im more ballmore-style
<abelli> :0
<ChrisH> abelli: Shouldn't you wear a funny tie then?
<abelli> i do actually.. chrish do you have "tabu'" sweet up there?
* sivang announced that ubuntu comedy central is now on doc channel
<sivang> our show is own,
<sivang> and we have some guests today
<ChrisH> sivang: I'm the monkey drummer tonight.
<abelli> III WANNA ROCK N ROLL ALL NITE..
* ChrisH plays the intro jingle
* abelli forces ChrisH to Hard Rock Jingle
<abelli> something like russian death metal..
<ChrisH> [This channel has been brought to you by: SCO UNIX] 
<abelli> && win 2003 server ed.
* sivang is the bad guy, I say "Knee!" for every suggetion
* abelli says *Fire*
<ChrisH> abelli: Okay, you are fired.
* ChrisH is off
<abelli> ChrisH: good night..
<abelli> and thanks for the FIREworks
#ubuntu-doc 2006-01-02
* mdke points Burgwork to a python guide and the moin source code
<mdke> know a good rss reader?
<Burgwork> mdke, I use blam, but I have heard liferea is half decent
<mdke> i couldn't get blam to add rss feeds :(
<mdke> i think that was dapper tho
* mdke tries breezy
<mdke> ah yeah that works very nicely
<Burgwork> mdke, I think mono is broken in dapper
<GnuKemist> hello
<Burgwork> salut GnuKemist 
<GnuKemist> Burgwork, salut to you too =)
<Burgwork> GnuKemist, what brings you here today?
<GnuKemist> Burgwork, just came to chat and see if you guys saw my modifications to the Doc News issue
<GnuKemist> guess I should remove the Brazilian portuguese version from the wiki
<Burgwork> I wouldn't quite
<Burgwork> yet
<GnuKemist> Burgwork, k... will hold on
<Burgwork> jerome or mdke are the best people to ask about translations
<GnuKemist> Burgwork, cool... the Desktop Team seemed to have liked my job with their first issue
<GnuKemist> Burgwork, the Brazilian community also appreciated being able to read it in their native tongue
<klepas> moin
<Burgwork> salut klepas 
<Burgwork> all these new faces
* OgMaciel shows his new face
<klepas> i popped in here a few times a fair while ago
<OgMaciel> ;)
<klepas> now that I've taken a peak at that doc you guys have so far, i think i might help out
<Burgwork> klepas, excellent. Here is your shovel
<OgMaciel> hehe
<klepas> :)
<Burgwork> klepas, what do you have experience  wiht? The best way to start writing docs is to document what you have done already
<Burgwork> remember to abstract it and write as if the reader knows very little
<Burgwork> emphasis GUI over CLI
<mdke> evening all
<OgMaciel> mdke, evening
<mdke> Burgwork, check out https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Installation/LVMOnRaid, some funny stuff
<mdke> {i} I said boot off of a LIVE CD. Do not boot your system with both drives hooked up. All kinds of bad things will happen, and you will be sad. Maybe your data will get toasted, maybe not. Bad things I say.
* mdke chuckles
<Burgwork> yes, I saw that
<Burgwork> going to get need to reign in the language  on that
<mdke> awww
<mdke> welcome klepas
<Burgwork> anyway, I am leaving work now
<Burgwork> cya all
<OgMaciel> Burgwork, later
<mdke> bye
<mdke> OgMaciel, thanks for your edits on the News page
<OgMaciel> mdke, pleased to be of help
<mdke> couple of things
<mdke> OgMaciel, when you edit a wiki page, it's very important to insert a comment in the box before you save the page
<mdke> that way, people can see easily what is being done
<OgMaciel> mdke, gotcha... will do that...  =)
<mdke> cool
<mdke> otherwise, I might revert a couple of language things, but no big deal :)
<mdke> thanks for your contribution :)
<OgMaciel> no prob...  =)
<OgMaciel> my pleasure
<OgMaciel> mdke, I was thinking of translating an article I wrote on setting up Network Manager to english...  Would that be helpfull?
<OgMaciel> it's got screenshots of every step too
<mdke> that sounds great
<mdke> is there any documentation already on it?
<OgMaciel> mdke, not that I know...
<klepas> Burgwork: i haven't done any real doc work
<klepas> I'm coming in over to check out what the doc team is up to, from the art team :)
<OgMaciel> mdke, is there a list of available docs somewhere?
<OgMaciel> mdke, nm  =)
<mdke> OgMaciel, wiki search
<OgMaciel> mdke, exactly... hehehe
<mdke> network manager website
<OgMaciel> mdke, came up with a few pages
<mdke> maybe not docs tho
<mdke> klepas, if you want to get involved and have any trouble, let us know =)
<klepas> mdke: sure thing
<klepas> i'll start off just going through http://doc.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/desktopguide/C/
<klepas> proof-reading :)
<mdke> rock!
<klepas> mhh, docbook certainly does look easier than C does :P
<mdke> it's pretty easy yeah
<KingBahamut> evening all
<klepas> mmh
<klepas> http://doc.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/desktopguide/C/ch01.html#introduction
<klepas> could someone find the line that reads: "However, a number of people are not computer fanatics and may find themselves in need of additional support."
<klepas> would computer fanatics be the applicable term/label in this case?
<klepas> I would rather have placed perhaps 'guru' or something similar
<mdke> experts?
<klepas> yea
<klepas> just fanatics... doesn't seem like the best term
<poningru> I think computer experts is best
<klepas> yep
<klepas> could one of you guys change it?
<mdke> sure, if you like
<klepas> mdke: still a bit new to the doc stuff :)
<mdke> otherwise, you can send a patch with all your suggestions to the mailing list
<klepas> to do that i would need to grab an SVN copy of the documentation right?
<mdke> that's right
<klepas> alrigty
<mdke> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocteamGettingStarted is the best place to start,
<klepas> is there a program i can use to edit the content in WYSIWYG?
<mdke> afaik, not a free one, no
<klepas> mmh
<klepas> docbook uses xml?
<mdke> docbook is a type of xml
<klepas> would be nice if it were latex
<mdke> I'm not familiar with that
<klepas> LaTeX
<klepas> let me find the wp page
<mdke> np
<klepas> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LaTeX
<mdke> i know what it is, just not how to use it
<klepas> ahh, ditto :P
<klepas> nice thing it has a WYSIWYG editor
<klepas> well, there is one
<klepas> here's one of them: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TeXmacs
<klepas> and the KDE app is called Kile
<klepas> IDE for LaTeX
<jsgotangco> hey rob1 
<jsgotangco> how's things?
<Burgundavia> salut jsgotangco 
<jsgotangco> hey Burgundavia 
<poningru> anyone around?
<poningru> I was looking through the to do list
<poningru> do we really need a thunderbird page?
<Madpilot> what's on it?
<Burglaptop> poningru: no, not really
<Burglaptop> poningru: unless there is one fromt eh forums you can adapt
<Burglaptop> poningru, Madpilot: do the instructions on this page! https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BootCharting
<Madpilot> what, actually restart my machine? :P
<Burglaptop> yes, dammit
<Madpilot> hmm... bootchart isn't found in Synaptic?
<Burglaptop> in dapper main
<Madpilot> I'm still running Breezy - what depends does it have?
<Madpilot> hmm... http://packages.ubuntu.com/dapper/admin/bootchart shows large numbers of depends - I think I'll pass
<Burglaptop> ok
<jsgotangco> bootchart is easy to grab in dapper
<rob1> hi jsgotangco 
<Madpilot> is "wiki.kubuntu.org" just a straight mirror of wiki.u.c, or something different?
<klepas> Madpilot: yes i think so :)
<Madpilot> it's a mirror?
<Burglaptop> Madpilot: just a redirect, same as wiki.edubuntu.org
<Madpilot> OK - didn't even know it existed until just now :P
* #ubuntu-doc  [freenode-info]  If you're at a conference, please contact freenode staff to make sure we've made special allowance for many users coming into our network from a single internet address ( http://freenode.net/faq.shtml#gettinghelp ). Private messages from unregistered users are currently blocked, except to network staff, services and participating registered users ( http://freenode.net/faq.shtml#privmsg )... Thanks!
<hyperactivecrond> i can do the kubuntu administrator's guide if you want me to...
<hyperactivecrond> is ChrisPeterman in here?
<hyperactivecrond> ok app.net
<hyperactivecrond> app. not
<hyperactivecrond> do you think that kyral needs help with the ubuntu installation guide?
<hyperactivecrond> To get an idea of current member's work , have a look _here_   --- On the main Docteam page, the link is a dead link. Just thought you wanted to know...
<hyperactivecrond> Can I join the sounder team?
<jsgotangco> where is this?
<jsgotangco> there is no sounder team
<jsgotangco> its just a list
<hyperactivecrond> http://www.ubuntulinux.org/community/community/teams/documentation
<hyperactivecrond> aah
<jsgotangco> well this is the docteam chanel
<hyperactivecrond> the dead link is in the bullet point that says http://www.ubuntulinux.org/community/community/teams/documentation
<hyperactivecrond> oops
<jsgotangco> this is a terribly old page
<hyperactivecrond> oh.
<jsgotangco> it still has enrico
<jsgotangco> heh
<jsgotangco> the core members you see on that page aren't active anymore or have focused on other teams
<hyperactivecrond> oh.
<jsgotangco> Burgwork, we really need to edit the webpage heh
<hyperactivecrond> how does one join the 'sounder team list'? i'd like to get involved with the official ubuntu docs
<jsgotangco> hyperactivecrond, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam
<hyperactivecrond> thx jsgotangco 
<jsgotangco> we currently have https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocteamProjects
<hyperactivecrond> yes.. i'd like to help ChrisPeterman with the installation guide if he needs help
<hyperactivecrond> or the Kubuntu Administrator's guide.. i'll do that if you want to un-deferr that
<jsgotangco> hmmm
<hyperactivecrond> how does one become an official docteam member?
<jsgotangco> it would be nice to know the toolchain for instance
<jsgotangco> we work in svn using docbook
<hyperactivecrond> ok
<jsgotangco> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocteamStepByStepRepository
<jsgotangco> once you get the sources, it should be a walk in the park =)
<hyperactivecrond> jsgotangco: ok but it says one has to become an 'offical' member to make changes... how does one do this/
<hyperactivecrond> oh whoops didn't read the whole page
<jsgotangco> hyperactivecrond, you'll need upload rights to svn to make direct chnages but you can make patches and submit to list
<jsgotangco> while you don't have commit
<hyperactivecrond> ok thankx
<hyperactivecrond> err... the getting-started.xml page of kubuntu's desktop guide has nothing in it (https://docteam.ubuntu.com/repos/trunk/kubuntu/desktopguide/C/)
<hyperactivecrond> i'm probably just stating the fact the the desktop guide isn't done.
<jsgotangco> we haven't really done in-depth writing in kubuntu but expect changes from jjesse when he comes back from holiday
<jsgotangco> at the moment, i jsut review the current work
<hyperactivecrond> x crash :\
<jsgotangco> duh
<hyperactivecrond> heh...
<Burgwork> jsgotangco, that page needs to die
<hyperactivecrond> which page?
<jsgotangco> i gotta sleep good night
<Burgwork> hyperactivecrond, the one that lists old doc team people
<hyperactivecrond> yes?
<hyperactivecrond> what about it
<Burgwork> it needs to be redone as it lists people who haven't been on the doc team since dec 2004
<hyperactivecrond> yes... i'
<hyperactivecrond> 've heard
<hyperactivecrond> so?
<Burgwork> we (the doc team) don't have write access to that page
<hyperactivecrond> oh.
<Burgwork> so we canna fix it
<hyperactivecrond> i see
<Burgwork> hyperactivecrond, you done any bash scripting>?
<hyperactivecrond> Burgwork: some.. why?
<Burgwork> 	for line2 in `cat ~/`'$line'`clicks`
<Burgwork> I need the shell to expand $line before it passes it to cat
<hyperactivecrond> define expand
<Burgwork> $line is a line from a file
<hyperactivecrond> ok
<hyperactivecrond> alright... hold on a sec
<hyperactivecrond> the tab is to be converted to how many spaces?
<hyperactivecrond> burgwork: ?
<Burgwork> yep?
<Burgwork> not convert
<Burgwork> for instance $line is actually say "dsn"
<Burgwork> so I want it to do `cat ~/dsnclicks`
<Kyral> I think you can do it inline
<Burgwork> Kyral, how? my bash foo is sadly limited
<Kyral> like cat ~/$(line)clicks
<Kyral> I mean I used the date command inline to generate part of a filename for irclog maintenance scripts
<Kyral> tar --remove-files -czf /home/kyral/irclogs/Undernet-$(date +%Y.%m).tgz /home/kyral/irclogs/Undernet/
<Burgwork> I use that elsewhere is this script
<Kyral> like that
<Burgwork> but that doesn't work
<Burgwork> I don't need line the command, I need line the variable I have defined in my bash scripts
<Kyral> yah
<Kyral> I know lol
<hyperactivecrond> expand actually takes tabs and makes them a number of spaces.
<hyperactivecrond> is this what you mean by 'i need a line expanded' Burgwork 
<Burgwork> yes, I also realize that. I am speaking about expand in the variable sense.
* Kyral goes to lookup in a Bash scripting guide
<hyperactivecrond> define expand then
<Burgwork> ok, got is working
<Burgwork> I need $(cat $line"click")
<Burgwork> which expands $line to its value before passing it to cat
<hyperactivecrond> what is dapper's version #?
<Kyral> 6.04
<hyperactivecrond> thx kyral
<Kyral> Dapper+1 will be 6.10, Dapper+2 will be 7.04, etc
<hyperactivecrond> kyral: i'm working on a basic beginning of the guide
<Kyral> mkay
<Burgwork> hyperactivecrond, which guide?
<Kyral> I swear there is GUI Installer
<hyperactivecrond> installer
<Kyral> he decided to help me on it lol
<hyperactivecrond> Kyral: not done yet
<hyperactivecrond> the installer
<hyperactivecrond> it's on low priority
<hyperactivecrond> ..and not in today's cd...
<Kyral> Flight 2 doesn't have it?
<hyperactivecrond> nope.
<Burgwork> there is a GUI installer, it is coming in January
<Burgwork> so I would hold off on any install guide
<Kyral> Then how are people all bitching about it already on hte Devel list lol
<Burgwork> that is gfx boot
<Kyral> ah
<Burgwork> a graphical chooser thingy
<hyperactivecrond> h/o i have a pic of it
<Burgwork> what needs work is documenting the oem installer
<Kyral> Yah in January I'll be back at school and be able to abuse VMWare to work on it
<Burgwork> I havne't gotten around to doing it myself
<hyperactivecrond> http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a389/ccmolik/snapshot2.png
<Kyral> you mean the Curses thing?
<Burgwork> hyperactivecrond, that is gfxboot
<hyperactivecrond> yes
<Burgwork> Kyral, we need to document for a potential oem how to install Ubuntu
<Kyral> like for selling computers with it pre-installed?
<hyperactivecrond> we both need svn access though...
<Burgwork> yes
<Burgwork> hyperactivecrond, svn access will come with patches
<Kyral> hmm
<hyperactivecrond> yes i no...
<Kyral> so basically mass deployment...
<Kyral> I seem to be slamming into this problem more and more
<hyperactivecrond> is oem mode done?
<Kyral> I don't know anything about OEM mode..I work mostly with MOTU and the Forums community
<hyperactivecrond> I have a docbook file(http://pastebin.com/481966) with some errors(http://pastebin.com/481968) could someone help me with these errors?
* hyperactivecrond writes on his head "docbook newbie"
<hyperactivecrond> hold on... 1 error
<hyperactivecrond> fixed
<hyperactivecrond> another error fixed
<hyperactivecrond> wait... i think i've got all of them fixed... waiting for db2html to finish
<hyperactivecrond> yes! it worked!
<hyperactivecrond> wait.. 1 more problem hold on a second
<hyperactivecrond> alright i see what I did wrong
<hyperactivecrond> *yes*
<hyperactivecrond> it workes.
<hyperactivecrond> http://69.214.139.26/~chris/
<hyperactivecrond> ^^ docbook source and in the dir ubuntuguide is the finished html for starters
<hyperactivecrond> kyral: apprarently oem stuff is in the preseed dir
<hyperactivecrond> on the iso
<Kyral> ah
<hyperactivecrond> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDownUnder/BOFs/OEMInstaller?highlight=%28OEM%29         Kyral : the specsw
<nickrud> hi all. I've been pretty much out of touch with you all in the doc team recently (I'll claim primarily time constraints).
<nickrud> I'm gonna try to catch up, by looking through the logs here and there on fabbione's archive. Are there any theme's I should be watching for?
<Burgwork> not really
<Burgwork> we are pretty quiet right now, due to christmas
<nickrud> Christmas was the prime time sink I had :)
<Burgwork> lots of wiki work recently
<nickrud> I've seen some of that, and done a little. What prodded me to check in today, was this gksudo sudo thing.
<nickrud> I'm trying to get a grip on that, because it's something that, if true, means a lot of changes.
<nickrud> ah, a good theme :) restricted formats is extremely too long.
<mdke> yeah, we need to do some decentralisation of some wiki pages
<Burgwork> nickrud, actually I like it as it is
<Burgwork> but we could split off the java
<mdke> Burgwork, things like Java can have their own
<mdke> lol
<nickrud> java, yes, that
<nickrud> is easy
<Kyral> yah
<Burgwork> I would leave the rest
<Burgwork> codecs are really one thing, in most peoples minds
<mdke> yes codecs should be in one place
<Burgwork> nickrud, mdke Kyral, you lot contributed a recent bootchart recently?
<nickrud> this is the breezy page, right?
<mdke> i haven't uploaded one, no
<Burgwork> nickrud, bootchart or Rf?
<nickrud> bootchart. That is something that I have conciously left alone. Got me
<Kyral> lol
<Burgwork> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BootCharting
<Kyral> Burgwork: I could dig a couple up
<mdke> Burgwork is our resident chaser
<Burgwork> I consider myself to be an ideas man and an ethusiastic
<Kyral> that reminds me....we should have a logrotate like thing for bootchart
<nickrud> I still mostly boot breezy. I need this thing to work :)
<Kyral> logrotate itself won't work
<Burgwork> nickrud, if you have a dapper box, fire one up there
<nickrud> well, I have a dapper sort of in a xen box 'out there'
<nickrud> a game box I guess you'd call it.
* Kyral wonders if he should try to get Terminal For Beginners into Wiki
<Burgwork> Kyral, BasicCommands
<Kyral> yah thats stopping me from doing it right now lol
<Kyral> even so its becoming more than "basic commands"
<Kyral> People are calling for me to do things on Shell Scripting
<Burgwork> then fix it
<Kyral> the basiccommands?
<nickrud> tldp has some useable docs on bash. 
<Kyral> yah
<nickrud> I'm thinking, it's hard to write that kind of stuff
<Kyral> seems like I tend to translate into newbiespeak :D
<nickrud> that's hard too. 
<Kyral> I actually think i tried to email the guy who wrote the Basic Commands page...
<Kyral> don't think I even got a reply
#ubuntu-doc 2006-01-03
<nickrud> Burgwork, one bootchart uploaded.
<Burgwork> nickrud, thanks
<nickrud> it's an interesting chart. Not my sphere, though :)
<Madpilot> hi rob1
<Madpilot> hi robitaille
<robitaille> bonsoir Madpilot 
<Madpilot> bleh... tab complete strikes again! :P
<bhuvan> what's the url for status pages ?
<hyperactivecrond> one patch submitted...
<hyperactivecrond> to the mailing lsit
<hyperactivecrond> list*
<jsgotangco> nice timing, i don't have my laptop
<hyperactivecrond> i assume that wasn't about me
<jsgotangco> =)
<hyperactivecrond> i think i've found a potential doc tester... this dood's a serious noob
<hyperactivecrond> he doesn't even know why they 'created a command like rm -rf /
<hyperactivecrond> uh oh i posted to the newsgroups wrong.. i didn't make a patch
<hyperactivecrond> i just pointed it out
<hyperactivecrond> i'll go do a patch...
<hyperactivecrond> I have a question: where it says make au (or whatever the make target is for the particular file you've edited) how does one know what the target is?
<hyperactivecrond> in the  DocteamStepByStepRepository
<hyperactivecrond> ./validate.sh ubuntu/aboutubuntu/C/about-ubuntu.xml
<hyperactivecrond> ./validate.sh: line 9: xmllint: command not found
<hyperactivecrond> err an error... 
<hyperactivecrond> i see.
<hyperactivecrond> aargh..!
<hyperactivecrond> Og B. Maciel is he in here?
<hyperactivecrond> Alright, a FIXED patch is in for about-ubuntu.xml...
<Hieronymus> Hello!
<Hieronymus> in http://doc.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/about-ubuntu/C/index.html most links point to ubuntu.com, but there are two that point to ubuntulinux.org
<Burgwork> Hieronymus, file a bug on it
<Hieronymus> Burgwork: bugzilla?
<Hieronymus> okay, I will
<Burgwork> Hieronymus, yes, indeed
<Burgwork> section documentation
<Burgwork> shall we have a "new docs on the wiki this week" page?
<Burgwork> dammit I'm bored at work, somebody talk to tme
* Burgwork creates a CategoryNeedsExpansion
<Burgwork> salut mdke 
<Burgwork> mdke_, 
<mdke_> Burgwork, hi
* Burgwork is bored
<Burgwork> but working hard, honest!
<mdke> Burgwork, pm
<mdke>  [21:07:46]  < Burgwork> shall we have a "new docs on the wiki this week" page?
<mdke> add them to DocumentationTeam/News1
<Burgwork> ok, cheers
<Hieronymus> Burgwork: #21569
<Hieronymus> *#21659
<mdke> thanks Hieronymus 
<Burgwork> Hieronymus, it goes the the ubuntu-doc mailing list and thanks as well
<mdke> fixed, thanks again
<mdke> night all
#ubuntu-doc 2006-01-04
<Burgwork> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/EasyWaysToHelpUbuntu
<Burgwork> looking for good things to add to this page
<theCore> i think we should change the Python tutorial bundled with ubuntu
<theCore> imho, Dive into Python isn't a good book for python starters
<theCore> "How to Think Like a Computer Scientist: Learning with Python" would be more apropriate
<Mez> I like Dive Into Python
<Mez> It's a good book
<theCore> this book scared me from Python
<theCore> i felt that C was easier than python, with this book
<theCore> until I found thinkCSpy
<theCore> this book really explain all the general concepts of programming
<theCore> dive into python is more for python programmers that have some basic knowledge with Python
<theCore> def buildConnectionString(params):
<theCore>     """Build a connection string from a dictionary of parameters.
<theCore>     Returns string."""
<theCore>     return ";".join(["%s=%s" % (k, v) for k, v in params.items()] )
<theCore> if __name__ == "__main__":
<theCore>     myParams = {"server":"mpilgrim", \
<theCore>                 "database":"master", \
<theCore>                 "uid":"sa", \
<theCore>                 "pwd":"secret" \
<theCore>                 }
<theCore>     print buildConnectionString(myParams)
<theCore> ^^^ first example of dive into python
<theCore> as a first example, it is quite overwhelming
<mhz> Burgwork: good ideas on wiki stuff, thx
<theCore> you start right away with a dictionary, a method, a list comprehention, and a format operator
<theCore> it seem to me a little bit to much for a beginner
<theCore> s/to/too/
<theCore> just this example was too much for me, and I had a quite good C understanding. Imagine someone that has never programmed ... this example is probably a nightmare
<theCore> however, i admit that Dive into Python is a good book for peoples who learned the basic of Python
<theCore> it teach good programming habit
<theCore> i think it would be a good idea to make our own Python tutorial to be included in Ubuntu
* Madpilot wonders who theCore is talking too... :P
* theCore wonder too
<Madpilot> to, even... bleh
<theCore> Madpilot, to the #ubuntu-doc ghosts that will probably read what I written when they will wake up
<Madpilot> :D
<theCore> any comments?
<Madpilot> the 24 people lurking right now?
<theCore> yeak
<theCore> yeah*
<Madpilot> I'll make a note of "Dive into Python", I've been messing with PHP and want to learn a bit more programming
<theCore> my first programming experiences was with PHP 
<theCore> but as I learn Python, I feel that PHP is useless 
<theCore> almost everythings that PHP can do, Python can do it better
<Madpilot> is it Python that uses whitespace as part of the actual markup?
<theCore> yeah
<theCore> it make the code more readable
<Madpilot> interesting - so how you indent things actually matters to how the code work?
<theCore> it's a block delimiter
<theCore> for example if I want to make a if statement
<theCore> I start with
<theCore> if var < 0:
<theCore>     print var
<theCore> else:
<theCore>     print "var is negative"
<theCore>      print var
<theCore> the last statement of the else block wouldn't work
<theCore> because the code isn't indented correctly
<Madpilot> which line? the "print var" one?
<theCore> in C, you could write if(var < 0) printf("%d", var);  else { printf("var is negative"); printf("%d", var); } and the code would work perfectly
<theCore> yes
<Madpilot> I was playing with if/else/elseif stuff in PHP last night, actually. Created a little browser-detecting script that told you off if it smelt IE :P
<theCore> try it
<theCore> that easy enough
<theCore> i think it's the first script after the hello world one,  in PHP tutorial
<theCore> <?php
<theCore> if (strpos($_SERVER['HTTP_USER_AGENT'] , 'MSIE') !== FALSE) {
<theCore>    echo 'You are using Internet Explorer.<br />';
<theCore> }
<theCore> ?> 
<Madpilot> yeah, it is, I was just playing with it and expanding it
<Madpilot> that's the one - I just threw in some elseif loops for other browsers, and a final else to print "I don't know what browser you're using!"
<theCore> lol
<Madpilot> what's the command to run a python script?
<theCore> I would use this script to a  "Get Firefox" icon to bother IE users, but to hide it from mozilla users
<theCore> from command line ?
<Madpilot> yeah, from terminal
<theCore> python
<Madpilot> "python test.py"?
<theCore> it depend of your program
<theCore> but it would probably work
<Madpilot> good to know - I'll have to keep playing with that
<theCore> but normaly you feed the interpeter by hand
<theCore> then when you have a working program, you put it in a script
<theCore> you can do the script executable too
<Madpilot> got an online Python tutorial you can recommend?
<theCore> by putting #!/usr/bin/env python
<theCore> yes
<theCore> http://www.ibiblio.org/obp/thinkCSpy/index.htm
<theCore> my personal favourite
<Madpilot> thanks - bookmarked for later
<theCore> http://docs.python.org/tut/ is cool too
<theCore> then i would go for http://diveintopython.org/ 
<theCore> btw, if you want an demonstration of the python web capatibilities, check the ubuntu website and its wiki, both are written in Python
<Madpilot> Dive into Python is actually in the Ubuntu repos as well
<theCore> yea, it's bundled in the default installation in Yelp > Application > Programming
<theCore> but, keep this for the end
<theCore> this book*
<Madpilot> I saw the "advanced programming" part of the intro blurb, don't worry :P
<theCore> "Dive Into Python is a free Python book for experienced programmers."   <--- directly extracted from Dive into Python
<theCore> so, that why we should change the tutorial to an easier one
<Madpilot> the bundled tut in Ubuntu, you mean?
<theCore> yes
<Burgwork> mhz, np
<Burgwork> mdke, ping
<mhz> Burgwork: ?
<Burgwork> mhz, making the wiki page
<mhz> Burgwork: oooh!
<Burgwork> mhz, got another one on my laptop here to put up. a more indepth helpingubuntu page
* mhz is willing to read it
<Burgwork> going to post it soon
<mdke> Burgwork, pong
<Burgwork> mdke, I am not certain about your merge of the two sections of wiki pages on the news article
<Burgwork> to me one is a "here look at our great work" and the other is "these are new things that might need somework"
<mdke> Burgwork, ah, that wasn't clear
<Burgwork> shall I revert the change then?
<mdke> ok...
<Burgwork> and https://wiki.ubuntu.com/HelpingUbuntu
<mdke> do we really need to put stuff that needs work in the news item?
<Burgwork> yes, because the newsletter has many audiences
<Burgwork> any pages I list are NeedsExpansion, not Cleanup
<mdke> hmm
<mdke> i had thought of the newsletter as showcasing the new hotness
<mdke> the ToDo page is linked there
<mdke> so people can see what needs work
<Burgwork> I don't want to mention any crappy pages there, but I think we can safely mention those  pages which look good but are not complete
<mdke> alright
<Burgwork> thus I will not mention https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Installation/LVMOnRaid
<mdke> lol
<Burgwork> do we have a WikiStyleGuide ?
<mdke> WikiGuide
<Burgwork> ah
<Burgwork> any thoughts on HelpingUbuntu ?
<mdke> looks good
<mdke> some dud links
<Burgwork> yes, I wrote it last night when I was offline
<mdke> perhaps link to ubuntu.com/community/participate
<Burgwork> I would rather participate links to the wiki page, actually
<Burgwork> as that participate page doesn't tell you who to contact
<mdke> eventually the two pages should become one
<Burgwork> yes
<mdke> for now, all we can do is to make sure users see both
<Burgwork> the idea behind helping Ubuntu is not to tell what what specifically can be done but to tell people where they can help
<Burgwork> do you understand what I mean as the difference?
<mdke> no
<Burgwork> participate tells people "you can help with X subproject"
<Burgwork> I think that is too much detail
<Burgwork> HelpingUbuntu tells people "X project does X and here is where to find out what to do with them"
<mdke> i suppose there is a small increase in detail on the participate page, yeah
<Burgwork> that doesn't really scale
<mdke> but in this case, I don't see why detail should be bad
<Burgwork> I mention large subprojects, such as the wiki vs docs
<Burgwork> but specific subprojects are bad
<Burgwork> ie, which specific wiki pages you can edit
<Burgwork> plus it doesn't have one link per section
<Burgwork> I have two links: How to contact and What to do
<mdke> i think that one page with a fair level of detail and clear links is better than two pages with varying levels of detail
<Burgwork> participate has a bunch of really useless links that send people to non-Ubuntu pages
<mdke> the fact that the page might be bad doesn't mean it has the wrong approach
<mdke> anyway, i disagree, i think the links are useful
<LaserJock> which pages?
<mdke> LaserJock, ubuntu.com/community/participate
<Burgwork> any links that send the person outside the ubuntu sphere is bad thing, if you are trying to get them to help Ubuntu
<Burgwork> becuase those external pages have no  links back to Ubuntu
<mdke> Burgwork, i don't understand that
<mdke> there are some links to gnome related topics, and lugs, that is about it
<Burgwork> mdke, but those are bad. They are ok on project pages, once the person is hooked, but not on the main "here is how to help Ubuntu page"
<mdke> if a person is minded to help Ubuntu, that is what they do
<Burgwork> yes, but it is basically playing bait and switch
<Burgwork> Here is how to help Ubuntu. click on this link. Oh wait, that goes to a non-ubuntu site? WTF. Ok I give up
<mdke> i still don't understand that
<Burgwork> instead of "here is how to help ubuntu. Hmm, I like artwork.  Hmm, I contact the artwork team. Click on artwork team link. Hmm, here are some projects I can do"
<Burgwork> then the artwork team page says "Art.gnome.org has some ideas/stuff
<Burgwork> "'
<mdke> then the person cries and gives up?
<mdke> i don't think so
<Burgwork> yes, they do. We have no way of finding out how  many people are crying and giving  up
<Burgwork> plus the text size on the Ubuntu website makes my eyes hurt and is hard to read
<mdke> so the person cries and gives up both ways?
<mdke> this person of your sucks
<mdke> yours*
<Burgwork> so, with HelpingUbuntu they now know two things: Who to contact and what they are working on
<Burgwork> participate doesn
<Burgwork> t have any of that
<mdke> i thought you said there is a link on HelpingUbuntu to the artworkteam page, which links to gnome?
<Burgwork> *in a clear format, I might add
<Burgwork> mdke, I said that the artwork team page can list art.gnome.org as an external resource, if you need help
<Burgwork> like we can list the gnome-doc team as an external resource
<mdke> that makes people cry tho
<Burgwork> why?
<mdke> < Burgwork> then the artwork team page says "Art.gnome.org has some ideas/stuff
<mdke> < mdke> then the person cries and gives up? [19:37:58]  < mdke> i don't think so [19:38:31]  < Burgwork> yes, they do.
<Burgwork> what I am saying is that if they come to a page on how to help Ubuntu, they don't expect external links that having nothing to do with Ubuntu on them
* mdke shrugs and gives up
<jjesse> Burgwork: i guess i would disagree, if helping (k)ubuntu requires me to go outside sites, like kde or gnome then i will poke around at those sites
<jjesse> Burgwork: as long as we aren't recomemnding them to go to sites outside of official sties
<Burgwork> jjesse, but how does going to external sites *first* help people help Ubuntu?
<mdke> because those sites help Ubuntu
<Burgwork> I have no objections to linking to them on team sites
<Burgwork> just not on the first level "Help Ubuntu" page
<jjesse> sorry for dropping link all the time, trying to get networking for qemu working :(
<jjesse> sorry that i keep dropping link, trying to figure out networking for qemu
<Burgwork> huh? https://wiki.ubuntu.com/InstituteTheDraftProposal
<jjesse> whats that?
<Burgwork> no idea, a random wiki page
<Burgwork> the guy is posting the -doc list about his ideas
<theCore> his system wouldn't be a bad idea ...
<Burgwork> theCore, he needs to remove about half the words from hsi proposal
<theCore> half the words .... ??
<Burgwork> theCore, yes, at random, every third word
<Burgwork> no better yet, every third letter
<Burgwork> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/InstituteTheDraftProposal <-- this is the too wordy proposal I am referring to
<Burgwork> it also needs structure
<mdke> and a new name
<Burgwork> there might be good ideas in there but I cannot bring myself to read it
<theCore> ah okay, i'm just saying that the idea of making a Ubuntu registry would be good, i don't really care about his syntax
<Burgwork> theCore, if you word your ideas badly, no matter how good they are, nobody will accept them because nobody will read them
<theCore> Burgwork, i know, that why I force myself to improve my english
<Burgwork> theCore, my engrish is real good now, after only spaking it fur 18 yers
<Burgwork> ;)
<theCore> :)
#ubuntu-doc 2006-01-05
* Burgwork starts filling peoples inboxes again
<Burgwork> I am getting really really annoyed at lack of namespaces right now
<Burgwork> hmm https://wiki.ubuntu.com/PageHits
<LaserJock> Burgwork: ping?
<Madpilot> another quiet evening here?
<rob1> everyone is in #freenode-newyears 
<Madpilot> still 24hrs to New Year's here
<rob1> 6 here
<Madpilot> 23hrs 49min, actually :P
<jsgotangco> happy new year guys
<mdke> happy new year to you too jsgotangco 
<jsgotangco> mdke, cheers mate
<nickrud> I really like step three from https://wiki.ubuntu.com/JavaSetup. that's how I got my first set of working sources :)
<theCore> how do I make a redirect in the wiki ?
<theCore> n/w i found it
#ubuntu-doc 2006-01-06
* Burgundavia is actually at home, a rare event these days
<poningru> guys there is no file transfer page on the wiki
<poningru> is there?
<Burgundavia> poningru, fiel transfer/
<Burgundavia> ?
<poningru> Burgundavia: yeah like transfering files over a network
<Burgundavia> poningru, create one 
<Burgundavia> I don
<Burgundavia> t think there is
<poningru> ok will make one
<Burgundavia> Be Bold!
<poningru> hehe
<Burgundavia> bloody FF tabs memory bug
<Burgundavia> after opening 50 tabs I need to restart FF
<bshumate> hahaha!
<bshumate> i love the "text input field bug" where after a bunch of tabs, some javascript, and flash, all of a sudden no input is possible into the text input field of any form...FF rules!
<bshumate> (course that bug has been around since the nutscrape days...)
<Burgundavia> robitaille, how are you this evening?
<robitaille> was there a doc team meeting on Friday?   I can't seem to find anything in the irc logs of fabbione
<robitaille> evening has been quiet:  everyone is now in bed :)
<Burgundavia> I wasn't there if there was
<robitaille> I'm catching up on my emails and my work, then I'm going to bed :)
<Burgundavia> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocteamPlansDapper <-- we need to work on this stuff
<Burgundavia> robitaille, is pygame.org down for you as well?
<robitaille> Burgundavia,  yes; can't get to it from either here or from my work connection
<Burgundavia> hmm
<Burgundavia> dns is working
<robitaille> someone didn't pay his bill for hosting, and the server got pulled on Jan 1st? :)
<Burgundavia> maybe
<Burgundavia> got bit by the y2k bug 6 years late?
<Burgundavia> I mean their web page does not like a late 90's one
<robitaille> anyway, I'm going to bed.  happy new year
<Burgundavia> indeed
<mdke> happy new year everyone
* #ubuntu-doc  [freenode-info]  channel trolls and no channel staff around to help? please check with freenode support: http://freenode.net/faq.shtml#gettinghelp
<Burgundavia> nickrud, ping
<nickrud> Burgundavia, pong
<Burgundavia> nickrud, what is your plan with NewJava?
<nickrud> Basically a clean write, and then check with you all. In fact, I'm need of answers :)
<Burgundavia> cool, that is what I thought
<nickrud> So, have you installed java on amd's and ppc's?
<Burgundavia> no
<Burgundavia> but here is what you offer them
<nickrud> me neither
<Burgundavia> try gcj
<Burgundavia> then install blackdown
<nickrud> yes, except the ppc's I just wrote my work to date
<Burgundavia> and if 1.4 doesn't cut it, offer them sun
<nickrud> that's some of the fact checking I need.
<Burgundavia> for hoary and preveious, it is just install sun
<nickrud> right. That's what I'd picked up. The beginning of the current page lists arch's & preferred java
<Burgundavia> on breezy, blackdown works on amd64
<nickrud> yes.
<nickrud> so far so good :0
<Burgundavia> ppc java is stuck I think
<nickrud> totally?
<nickrud> I'm currently going by that quote from the javappc page
<Burgundavia> this might do https://www14.software.ibm.com/webapp/iwm/web/preLogin.do?source=lxdk
<mpt> morning everybody
<nickrud> wish I had a ppc to test an install
<nickrud> I'll have to ask around a bit, find some people who have
<Burgundavia> nickrud, mpt has one
<Burgundavia> don't know if he sullies it with Ubuntu through
<mpt> hehe, no sullying yet :-)
<mpt> I have only 1 GB free space anyway ...
<nickrud> shouldn't matter, I don't think
<Burgundavia> nickrud, default install is 1.8 gb
<nickrud> I meant sullying, I'd be happy with an overview of debians :)
<teroedni> Hello
<Burgundavia> salut teroedni 
<mpt> Burgundavia, what do you think of the idea of making help.ubuntu.com a help-specific wiki, and wiki.ubuntu.com a development-specific wiki?
<Burgundavia> mpt, I love the idea
<Burgundavia> that is exactly the idea mdke and I have been kicking around for at least two months now
<mpt> ah
<Burgundavia> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BetterWikiDocs
<mpt> So I guess the problem is, as usual with Ubuntu Web sites, finding someone to implement it :-)
<Burgundavia> first we need to agree on what we are doig
<mpt> great, I'll look at that tomorrow
<Burgundavia> cool
<Burgundavia> mpt, a lot of the work I have been doing recently is to categorize things so that we know exactly what we need otmove
<Burgundavia> A lot of work has been put into improving the installed documentation  probably to little effect, as the front page of the help system is still intensely hostile to people who want help. The Quick Guide is now called the Starter Guide, which is less misleading. Unfortunately the guide is still caught up in technical navel-gazing: The source code for this book is written using Docbook XML and is kept in a Subve
<Burgundavia> rsion code revision control repository. (Or as normal humans would perceive it, The marklar marklar for this book is written using Marklar Marklar and is kept in a Marklar marklar marklar marklar.)
<Burgundavia> mpt savages us once again
<Burgundavia> http://mpt.net.nz/archive/2006/01/01/breezy\
<nickrud> number 13 is my number 1 complaint
<Burgundavia> #13?
#ubuntu-doc 2006-01-07
<nickrud> http://mpt.net.nz/archive/2005/04/11/ubuntu #13
<nickrud> arhg
<Madpilot> hmm?
<nickrud> Burgundavia mpt savages us once again
<nickrud> Burgundavia http://mpt.net.nz/archive/2006/01/01/breezy\
<Madpilot> #66 on that page is something I've been complaining about for months ;)
<Madpilot> basically, most of the Ubuntu docs open with a giant pile of copyright info, version info, and similar useless crap...
<nickrud> docbook right
<jsgotangco> Burgundavia: do we have a wiki page pointing to IsoImage?
<Burgundavia> where is IsoImage?
<jsgotangco> because http://www.ubuntu.com/support/custom/hplaptops point to it
<Burgundavia> that page does not exist
<Burgundavia> I will create it now
<Burgundavia> was that HP stuff not merged into Breezy anyway?
<jsgotangco> no idea
<Burgundavia> jsgotangco, created
<jsgotangco> nice thanks
<Burgundavia> nickrud, ping
<nickrud> Burgundavia, pong
<Burgundavia> holy crap 349 articles in cat cleanup
<nickrud> 3 minutes from now, no response :)
<Burgundavia> nickrud, on NewJava, please tell people that most computers are i386
<nickrud> :)
<Burgundavia> so say PPC (Apple machines) or something similar
<nickrud> this is pure bones, a lot more flesh needs to be added
<Burgundavia> cool
<nickrud> and, the java-package 0.27 stuff is very tentative, it may simply need to be moved to advanced java install
<Burgundavia> cool, ok
<Burgundavia> I avoid Java like the plague
<Burgundavia> jsgotangco, something that is no longer a bug in Breezy, nuke the page? https://wiki.ubuntu.com/sk98lin
<nickrud> I haven't read anything about it in quite a while, before breezy for sure.
<jsgotangco> i'd keep it till hoary and warty support dries up
<Burgundavia> we need to move it to a better place then
<Burgundavia> jsgotangco, the reason I say nuke is that is the only time people are likely to run into it as it install time and thus it is unlikely that anybody would be installing hoary now
<jsgotangco> well i would still keep it for archive purposes until support gets dropped
<Burgundavia> lost as to a better name to put it under
<Madpilot> hi all - have a good new year's eve?
<Burgundavia> quiet
<Burgundavia> I flooded people's inboxes for fun and profit
<Madpilot> no partying until the wee hours? :P
<jsgotangco> Burgundavia: ping?
<Burgundavia> jsgotangco, pong
<jsgotangco> i still couldn't get past that bloddy locales bug
<Burgundavia> did you remove locales?
<Burgundavia> the key thing is that you must remove all language packs
<jsgotangco> i havent
<Burgundavia> removing the locales package shoudl remove all language packs
<jsgotangco> and then?
<Burgundavia> install the old locales from you dapper flight 2 cd
<Burgundavia> then install the new locales
<Burgundavia> and then install new language packs
<Burgundavia> jsgotangco, can I ask you opinion about licensing?
<jsgotangco> im not that good with it but sure
<Burgundavia> salut robitaille 
<robitaille> bonsoir Burgundavia 
<Madpilot> robitaille: evening - how was your New Years?
<robitaille> Madpilot,  it was pretty relaxed.    I have been on vacation since before Christmas, and I'm starting to get use to not do a lot beside a few things with the kids
<robitaille> that window security vulnerability seems pretty nasty.   I'm glad I rarely use windows nowadays
<Madpilot> sounds good - I was out at a friend's until 0300...
<Madpilot> another MS hole? what a surprise! :P
<jsgotangco> the WMF thing? yeah that's pretty nasty
<robitaille> jsgotangco,  the sad part is that my kids uses Win98 from time to time for their game.  I think I'll have to turn off the networking on it; I don't really want to spend the money to upgrade them :)
<robitaille> but they are starting to discover edubuntu :)
<jsgotangco> ahhh
<jsgotangco> but i think it only affects 2k up
<robitaille> nope.  Win98 is affected from what I have seen, but no support from anywhere
<jsgotangco> ouchh
<jsgotangco> good thing i only connect to games in windows
<mdke> jdub, is the new planet up, or is that the old one?
<mdke> jdub, is the new planet up, or is that the old one?
<mhz> hi guys
<mhz> I just read the news letterr
<mhz> good work
<mhz> and it looks god in the wiki perspective
<mhz> I was wondering if it is of any use to translate that letter into spanish?
<mhz> mdke: any opinions?
<mdke> mhz, sure thing, maybe coordinate with the spanish locoteam to put it on their website?
<mhz> okis
<mhz> .oO(i had gorgotten there was a spanish team translators)
* mhz uses 99% of interfaces in english
<GnuKemist> mdke, hi... got a minute?
<OgMaciel> mdke, ping
<mdke> OgMaciel, pong
<mdke> odd idea to send the portughese version to all those mailing lists ;)
<OgMaciel> mdke, hehehe... I figured there are Brazilians in those lists as well
<OgMaciel> mdke, I sent the translated Desktop News to their list too...
<mdke> even news?
<OgMaciel> nope
<mdke> i'd try the portughese lists
<OgMaciel> not news
<mdke> the others are english-specific
<OgMaciel> mdke, gotcha...  will take your advice in consideration
<mdke> imagine if tall languages did that ;)
<OgMaciel> mdke, some people may flame me for this later... ;)
<OgMaciel> mdke, it would be a babel tower
<mdke> OgMaciel, what was it you pinged me about?
<OgMaciel> mdke, wanted to ask you which lists to send it too... ;)
<OgMaciel> mdke, too late now... ;)
<mdke> ah, sorry i wasn't around :)
<OgMaciel> mdke, no worries buddy
<OgMaciel> mdke, thanks for getting back though
<mdke> ubuntu-pt and ubuntu-br :)
<OgMaciel> mdke, hope you had a great new years
<OgMaciel> hehe
<mdke> yeah, thanks you too
<OgMaciel> will remember that
<mdke> bbl
<OgMaciel> k
<Burgundavia> ugh https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Sound/Problems/Mic
<Burgundavia> mdke, should I nuke the above page
<Burgundavia> ?
#ubuntu-doc 2006-01-08
<hyperactivecrond> eer what is Grumpy Groundhog?
<hyperactivecrond> as in https://wiki.ubuntu.com/AboutUbuntu
<Burgundavia> hyperactivecrond, a as of yet not released version of Ubuntu
<hyperactivecrond> oh. never mind.
<hyperactivecrond> Burgundavia:  i have a bad habit of not googleing stuff before I ask... so ... apologies to the whole channel for not googleing before i asked
<Burgundavia> hyperactivecrond, hey, np
<hyperactivecrond> lol thx
<Burgundavia> grumpy was to be breezys code name
<Burgundavia> as it would continue the hog theme
<hyperactivecrond> lol
<hyperactivecrond> do we need an install guide for Xubuntu?
<Burgundavia> isn't there one already on the wiki?
<hyperactivecrond> i mean an official one for Dapper
<Burgundavia> anything on the wiki is official
<Burgundavia> if you mean in SVN, go ahead if you want to write one
<hyperactivecrond> sweeeeet.
* hyperactivecrond has to wait, then, for an xubuntu cd to be released
<Burgundavia> currently the installguide would be the same for (k)(x) and ubuntu
<hyperactivecrond> true...
<hyperactivecrond> maybe an appendix for differences in each?
<Burgundavia> there are no differences currently
<hyperactivecrond> Burgundavia: alright
<Burgundavia> however, for dapper they are going to be different
<Burgundavia> as we switch to (k)(x)ubuntu-express
<hyperactivecrond> installguide for dapper it ...
<hyperactivecrond> express?
<Burgundavia> wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuExpress
<hyperactivecrond> so kind of what Mepis does? and Knoppix? (where you can install from cd)
<Burgundavia> yes
<hyperactivecrond> cool
<hyperactivecrond> ooh xubuntu's nice
<hyperactivecrond> ...only in cleveland can one have a severe t-storm on jan 2nd
<hyperactivecrond> instead of snow
<Madpilot> Burgundavia: ping
<jsgotangco> hhhhmmm
<mhz> hmmmm?
<mhz> .oO(oh, jsgotangco is having lunch)
<jsgotangco> whats up?
<Burgundavia> Madpilot, pong
<Burgundavia> bonsoir robitaille 
<robitaille> hi Burgundavia 
<poningru> question, do we have a place to put something like a useful tips page?
<Burgundavia> poningru, what sort of tips?
<poningru> like http://www.mozilla.org/support/firefox/tips
<poningru> thats for firefox
<Burgundavia> big catchall docs like that are not reallly that great
<poningru> for ubuntu it might be something like, how to hide your recent documents
<Burgundavia> try and integrate them into tasked based docs
<poningru> oh ic
<Burgundavia> so create HowToHideRecentDocs
<poningru> right ok
<Burgundavia> because when they are searching for that, they are looking for that, not a catchall tips page
<poningru> yeah true, but it would be such a small page though
<Madpilot> ...and the search on our wiki is pretty awful... :P
<Burgundavia> poningru, you can redirect if neccessary
<poningru> ok I am just going to make a page like that
<poningru> screw it
<poningru> RecentDocuments
<Madpilot> poningru: there's already a RecentChanges, you might want to pick a different name - and include Howto or something similar in the title, so people know what it is
<poningru> hmm ok
<Burgundavia> I thought there was a PrintintHowTo
<Burgundavia> I guess not
<Burgundavia> someone want ot create one
<Burgundavia> Madpilot, ^
<Madpilot> Printing, you mean?
<Burgundavia> yes
<Burgundavia> create a page like the ScanningHowto I did
<Burgundavia> poningru, ping
<Burgundavia> poningru, I renamed your page to camelcase
<poningru> k
<poningru> camelcase?
<Madpilot> the MixedCase stuff
* poningru is confoozled
<poningru> what are we talking about?
<Burgundavia> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/howtohiderecentdocuments
<Burgundavia> this page ^
<Burgundavia> ItIsNotInCamelCase
<Burgundavia> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/HideRecentDocumentsHowto
<Burgundavia> anyway, I need to crash
<poningru> oh gotcha
<Burgundavia> night all
<poningru> doh
<poningru> night dude
<Madpilot> later, Burgundavia
<mdke> morning everyone
<Madpilot> hi mdke
<jsgotangco> hey mdke 
<mdke> how are things?
<jsgotangco> hmm not so good for me
<mdke> jsgotangco, how come?
<jsgotangco> lots of things to do after the holidays :/
<mdke> ah, as always
* mdke reads scrollback
<mdke>  [23:43:44]  < hyperactivecrond> do we need an install guide for Xubuntu?
<mdke> we'll need an install guide for ubuntu first
<mdke> wasn't that the guy who volunteered to write it?
<mdke> ah no, not the same guy
<bhuvan> mdke ping
<mdke> bhuvan, yes?
<bhuvan> just in case you have not noticed, fyi, i've included 'status' in 'make all' target 
<mdke> yeah I saw, nice work
<bhuvan> ok
<mdke> bhuvan, how's the server guide looking?
<bhuvan> its looking good
<mdke> think it'll be finished for dapper?
<bhuvan> couple of sections are over. i'm preparing few more
<mdke> awesome
<bhuvan> i guess we've atleast 3 months ?
<mdke> yep
<bhuvan> so, sure, we'll complete it
<bhuvan> meanwhile, there are couple of 'review' sections..
<mdke> bhuvan, i meant to ask, I noticed there is quite a lot of exim4 material on the Mailman wiki page, do you think it will be possible to make a separate page on exim4, and leave only Mailman specific stuff in the Mailman page?
<mdke> then, we can add exim to https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MailServer
<bhuvan> it should be possible, but, i guess the exim info available on Mailman wiki page is meant to configure exim for Mailman
<bhuvan> imo, it can reside there
<mdke> ok, so it's Mailman-specific?
<bhuvan> yep
<mdke> ah right
<mdke> fair enough then
<bhuvan> ok
<bhuvan> back to server guide..
<mdke> Ok, keep up the great work :)
<bhuvan> i've couple of review sections
<bhuvan> when you have some time, i want you to proof read those sections and update it as completed
<mdke> I will, thanks
<bhuvan> ok
<bhuvan> if you feel that more tech info needs to be added or such, let me know so i can work on it
<bhuvan> i meant more tech info in those review sections
<mdke> sure
<mdke> bbl
<jjesse> morning, when soemone get's a chance can they review the updated release notes for kubuntu?
<jsgotangco> im reading them now
<jsgotangco> jjesse, Kubuntu dapper 2 is very very broken though
<jjesse> jsgotangco: i understand that, however everything in the release notes should be either what is in or what is going to be in
<jsgotangco> yep
<jsgotangco> i couldnt make a proper test since it just doesnt work on mine at the moment
<jjesse> i'm running it on two test instances myself, one test computer and also on qemu
<jsgotangco> probably in a few days :)
<jjesse> w/o any problems
<jsgotangco> ahh
<jsgotangco> it must be hardware then
<jsgotangco> i had to setup my interface verytime i boot
<jjesse> oh yeah sorry that is the one issue i'm having
<jjesse> forgot about that :)
<jjesse> been along time since i've shutdown the box so i forget bout that
<jsgotangco> i always had to do sudo kcontrol on the console just to fix it via gui
<jjesse> be right back
<jsgotangco> i gotta sleep
<jsgotangco> later
<jsgotangco> there are some minor changes i'll commit
<LaserJock> Burgwork: ping?
<Burgwork> LaserJock, pong
<LaserJock> Burgwork: are there any guides or anything about cleaning up wiki's. Myself and another guy want to clean up the MOTU wiki but I worry about redirects or deletions
<LaserJock> I would like to be able to rename wiki pages easily but I just don't think that is going to work
<LaserJock> I am trying to clean up the structure as well as the content
<Burgwork> LaserJock, google the names if you are not certain. Redirect any pages older than a couple of weeks
<LaserJock> k
<Burgwork> LaserJock, s/names/URLs
<LaserJock> sure
<LaserJock> Burgwork: what about using subpage structure, like putting all the MOTU stuff under MOTU/ ?
<Burgwork> LaserJock, what about it?
<LaserJock> is there a reason not to use them?
<LaserJock> It seemed like there was some discussion about it a while
<Burgwork> LaserJock, there is no reason not to use them
<LaserJock> ok, cool
<Burgwork> caveat: for things that are logically grouped together, such as the MOTU stuff
<LaserJock> sure
<Burgwork> mdke, thoughts on a ForReview category for docs?
<poningru> can someone just look over https://wiki.ubuntu.com/FirefoxPlugins
<poningru> guys also whats the policy on deletion on the wiki
<poningru> ?
<mdke> Burgwork, i think we have too many categories, Cleanup, ForReview and NeedsExpansion should probably be a max of 2
<mdke> poningru, WikiGuide shows the policy on deletion
<mdke> poningru, mail the list about FirefoxPlugins and someone will take a look :)
<poningru> k
<mdke> afk again
<Burgwork> mdke, ok
<poningru> mdke: not ok
<poningru> come back now ;)
<mdke> poningru, Burgwork can help too :)
<Hendikins> having just added FirefoxPlugins is the reason I'm lurking here. I'm hoping a bit of quietly watching will help ensure I don't stuff up too badly when overhauling the Firefox-related docs :-)
<mdke> Hendikins, best plan is to use the mailing list, that way we can keep track of stuff, you won't always find someone active here
<Burgwork> mdke, I don't actually work
<Burgwork> poningru, yes, I can help
<Hendikins> mdke: I'm more here to watch, not ask.
<mdke> Burgwork, ;)
* Hendikins ususally just harasses poningru if he wants to ask
<mdke> Hendikins, you're welcome to ask, but if no one responds, or people are busy, feel free to use the ML too :)
<Hendikins> mdke: I prefer to be seen and not heard, but thanks for the tip :)
<Burgwork> Hendikins, like a good child? ;)
<Hendikins> heh
<Burgwork> seriously, I am usually here during PST working hours (GMT -8)
<poningru_out> Burgwork: I thought you were central
<Burgwork> nope
<Hendikins> Main reason I'm digging in to Firefox docs on the wiki is that I'm already firmly entrenched in Firefox support, and it helps having good docs outside of our domain[s] 
<poningru_out> you are in chicago right?
<Hendikins> and I'm AEDT, so all your timezones are probably irrelevant to me anyway ;-)
<Burgwork> poningru_out, me? Victoria BC Canada dammit
<poningru_out> oh doh
<Burgwork> Hendikins, that is +13, no?
<poningru_out> must be thinking of someone else
<Hendikins> +11
<poningru_out> your brother lives with you right?
<Hendikins> New Zealand is +13
<Burgwork> poningru_out, no, but we are both involved in Ubuntu doc work
<poningru_out> where does Madpilot live then?
<Burgwork> poningru_out, Victoria, BC, Canada dammit
<poningru_out> ok I really have to
<poningru_out> will talk later
<poningru_out> :D
<Burgwork> just not in the same house
<Burgwork> we don't live in igloos in Canada, ya know
<Burgwork> ;)
<Hendikins> heh. I'd better get going myself. I've got to be back getting up at this time by next week, not going to bed.
<Burgwork> http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Marketing/Fedora
<nickrud> before it spreads too far, is installing realplayer with a deb legal anywhere?
<Burgwork> nickrud, yes, because the deb simply calls teh downloader
<Burgwork> thus the actual realplayer code is not being distributed
<nickrud> for the one in multiverse, yes, but not the one on restricted. It has the code embedded in the deb.
<Burgwork> nickrud, there is no realplayer in restricted
<nickrud> restricted formats, I mean
<Burgwork> again, we are not distributing it
<nickrud> true. I wasn't sure just where I should draw the line
<Burgwork> as long as we make it clear that some things may not be legal, I think we are good
<nickrud> anyway, I'm pretty much done with the structure and theme of NewJava. 
<Burgwork> yes, I saw that
<nickrud> it's an extreme solution :)
<Burgwork> nickrud, general style comment. Use Ubuntu 5.10 (Breezy Badger), not just Breezy or Hoary
<nickrud> those are placeholders. I've already changed it in places. Now, how do I refer to the distros? amd, ppc, 386 are lame
<Burgwork> hmm, not sure about that latest java thing
<Burgwork> i386 = your PC
<Burgwork> amd64 = your 64-bit PC
<Burgwork> ppc = Apple and other PowerPC computers
<nickrud> ok, I tentatively tried PC, 64-bit PC and Mac on the mplayer page.
<nickrud> but some are still going to say, "I have an amd64 processor", but are running 32-bit.
<Burgwork> that is fine, that is not our concern
<nickrud> when they get the 64bit blackdown, and try to install it, they'll say 'those docs suck' :)
<Burgwork> again, not our concern
<nickrud> but I guess you have to assume some intelligence on their part, or you'll be splitting to infinity.
<Burgwork> if they are running 32 bit on 64, they should know enough
<nickrud> ok.
<nickrud> Anyway, the only truly relevant new thing on that page is advocating getting the latest java-package.
<nickrud> If the wiki does that, then it will let the other java pages clean themselves up nicely.
<Burgwork> you need to mention that Breezy ships with GCJ java
<nickrud> ah, yes
<nickrud> I'd have to research that some, of course. I don't know much about java itself.
<Burgwork> I avoid it like the plague
<nickrud> I almost want to say that about docbook. That is some angular writing.
<Kyral> yo
<Burgwork> salut Kyral 
<Kyral> I have an idea for the Install Guide
<Burgwork> sweeet
<Kyral> maybe we could research alternative install methods
<hyperactivecrond> ?
<Kyral> like without a CDROM Drive
<Kyral> from a USB Stick
<Kyral> Netboot
<Kyral> etc
<Burgwork> there is already some of that work on the wiki
<hyperactivecrond> problem:
<Burgwork> solution:
<mdke> the main problem is that we have no installguide
<Kyral> because I'm working on it :D
<mdke> Kyral, where is it?
<Kyral> I'm waiting until the GUI INstaller comes around to start
<hyperactivecrond> does ubuntu support netboot?
<Burgwork> hyperactivecrond, yes
<Kyral> and...until my computer borks
<Kyral> unborks
<hyperactivecrond> hmm.
<Burgwork> Kyral, in the meantime, fix up the subpages on Installation in the wiki
<hyperactivecrond> !bork
<Kyral> Burgwork: that was a nice demo of LTSP at Ubuntu Love wasn't it
<Burgwork> Kyral, ah, yes, I remember now
<Burgwork> I was about to say that I had no idea what you were talking about
<Kyral> haahah
<Kyral> Only like two or three MOTU even realize I was there
(jjesse/#ubuntu-doc) do i have to do anything on tun0 to bring it active before starting the virtual machine?
<hyperactivecrond> jjesse: nope
<jjesse> hmmm :(
<hyperactivecrond> what's wrong?
<jjesse> still can't get a dhcp address from my dapper session
<hyperactivecrond> dhclient tun0 maybe?
<jjesse> argh gotta head out :(
* Burgwork beats his head against FC4
<Kyral> lol
<Kyral> Fedora Core
<Kyral> EVIL
<Burgwork> sadlly my company decided to build an enterprise offering on it
<Burgwork> silk and sows ears come to mind
<Kyral> damnit
<Kyral> I didn't save my work
<Burgwork> oops
<Kyral> and I lost the connection
<mpt> Kyral, let me guess, you're using a 1980s-style computer that makes you save everything manually
<Kyral> no
<Kyral> I was editing it via a FreeNX session
<mpt> ah
<Kyral> and I lost the connection before I could save it
<mpt> Burgwork, wow, I was about to suggest you create https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Testing, then I saw you'd already done it
<Burgwork> mpt, that isn't me
<Kyral> ....I should suggest that the Wiki implement an AutoSave....
<mpt> last edited 2005-12-24 03:08:47 by CoreyBurger2
<mpt> we have another Corey Burger?
<Kyral> lol
<Kyral> Hey can I delete or rename the emacs page to Emacs?
<Burgwork> Kyral, you can reanmed it
<Burgwork> mpt, that si the last editor, no the creator
<Kyral> nm saw rhe option lol
<Kyral> Corey I'm gonna take it out of Category Cleanup when I revise it mkay?
<Burgwork> Kyral, your wiki too
<Burgwork> mpt, you are not the only person to be bitten by that annoying display thing
<Kyral> Burgwork: My wiki too? (I guess I don't get the meaning)
<mpt> Burgwork, what annoying display thing?
<mpt> Burgwork, anyway, the reason I mentioned it was that Victor Jian and the OSTL in Beijing are doing super testing work, and not getting much feedback
<mpt> Jiang, rather
#ubuntu-doc 2007-01-01
* mdke_ hellos
<david_corrales> heya
<david_corrales> happy new year
<david_corrales> lol
<david_corrales> ninja
<mdke> damn
<mdke> happy new year all, anyway
<david_corrales> heh
<david_corrales> happy new year to you too
<mdke> popey: online by any chance?
<popey> mdke: yes
<popey> just going to get food
<popey> brb
<mdke> popey: ok, I'll leave you a message.
<popey> ok
<mdke> popey: I was thinking of creating a team which we could use to attract contributors to the screencast project when we have the infrastructure ready. It would involve making a launchpad team, which I've just done, and making a wiki page, which I'm about to do. I'd love your feedback on the idea and anything you'd like to see happening in terms of organising that
<popey> ok
<popey> i have started a bunch of screencast wiki pages
<popey> it could hang off that>?
<david_corrales> which screencast project? :)
<popey> david_corrales: http://quickones.org/
<david_corrales> thanks :)
<popey> mdke: what's the team, I'll join :)
<popey> ubuntu-screencasts found it :)
* mdke_ whinges about his internet connection
* mdke_ sighs
#ubuntu-doc 2007-01-02
<mdke_> popey?
<tonyyarusso> sigh
<tonyyarusso> So I fail at wikis a lot.  How do you do a comment again?  (Tried #)
<crimsun> ##
<tonyyarusso> Ah
<tonyyarusso> thanks
<Madpilot> you were halfway there ;)
* mdke swears at his internet connection
<mdke> popey: awake?
<popey> hi
<mdke> popey: sorry, was out for dinner. Good time to run through that mysql thing?
<popey> sure
<mdke> are you able to connect to my screen session?
<popey> i thought I could, but it seems that's not possible
<mdke> I only just started it
<popey> you have to both be logged in under the same account
<mdke> oh well.
<mdke> talk me through it?
<popey> do you have a web based admin tool on that box?
<popey> something like phpmyadmin?
<mdke> no
<mdke> I can look up the commands, but if you can tell me them that's better :)
<popey> heh
<popey> well the first one is easy
<popey> do you have the root password?
<mdke> popey: I have admin access
<popey> ok, here's what I need
<popey> 1) create a database
<popey> 2) create a user which has access to that database, and give it a password
<popey> 3) let me know what the above are
<popey> I don't know the exact command syntaxes, I'd have to muddle through
<mdke> I'll see if I can find a helpful guide
<popey> well, the first step is easy
<popey> mysql
<popey> create database foo;
<popey> however when you start mysql you need to start it with a user that has mysql admin access
<popey> mysql -u adminuser -p
<popey> and it will prompt for the password
<popey> then when in, create the database with "create database foo;"
<mdke> users with mysql are separate from users on the system, are they?
<popey> they can be
<popey> there is a user table which may reference real users
<popey> usually root@ exists initially
<mdke> good start:
<mdke> root@hudson:~ # mysql
<mdke> ERROR 1045: Access denied for user: 'root@localhost' (Using password: NO)
<popey> yes
<popey> that's why you need to do
#ubuntu-doc 2007-01-03
<popey> mysql -u adminuser -p
<mdke> oh, I see, sorry
<popey> np
<nixternal> mysql -h localhost -u username -p
<popey> working as designed :)
<popey> ah, an expert!
<nixternal> change localhost with the ip
<popey> please help! :)
<mdke> and where do I get adminuser from?
<nixternal> adminuser would be like root, or mdke if it has root access
<mdke> mdke has sudo access, is that ok?
<mdke> no, apparently not
<nixternal> you need to have/or have setup a mysql admin user as well
<popey> ah, yes
<popey> do this
<popey> hmm, actually, maybe not
<popey> is it a server install? doesn't it have a root account?
<mdke> no root account
<popey> try sudo -s
<popey> then mysql
<popey> then create database foo
<mdke> lemme see the Ubuntu Server Guide :D
<nixternal> ahh yes, forgot about that popey :)
<mdke> popey: no, that's what I tried the first time
<popey> ok, try
<mdke> you see, it's in the server guide
<mdke> magic
<popey> heh, cool :)
<nixternal> ya, but has the mysql bug been fixed in the server guide? it provides old mysql commands that hoses up the root mysql account (it used to at least)
<mdke> I don't know. Anyway, it doesn't work
* mdke moves to the wiki
<popey> ok, try this
<popey> sudo -s
<popey> mysql
<popey> use mysql
<popey> select * from users;
<popey> and see what users are in the list
<nixternal> also, make sure you #bind-address             127.0.0.1       in /etc/mysql/my.cnf
<nixternal> nice, i just realised there was tab complete for my directories right through irssi
<nixternal> either i didn't know, or never noticed
<popey> holy cow
<popey> that's cool :)
<nixternal> hehe
<mdke> hmm
<nixternal> sudo mysqladmin -h localhost -u <username to add> password <password for new user>
<nixternal> that is how you create a mysql user
<mdke> it occurs to me that there is already a root account on this box
<mdke> I'm slightly worried about buggering up the installation if mysql is already in use
<mdke> i know
<mdke> I'll consult the magic webmaster
<nixternal> hehe
<nixternal> hrmm. laserjock sneaked past me somehow today
<popey> it's okay mdke there's other stuff I need to do anyway, I am not waiting on you
<mdke> popey: ok good. He is walking me through it/doing it for me
<popey> I have started putting the videos on there, so you will probably see some peaks in bandwidth use today
<mdke> oh cool
<popey> in /srv/doc.ubuntu.com/www/screencasts/videos
<nixternal> oooh, screencasts?
<nixternal> i have been wanting to learn how to do that
<nixternal> i have never been successful when trying though
<mdke> now is your chance
<mdke> or, in a few days is your chance
<nixternal> well, there is KScreenCast but I don't know if it is working
<nixternal> and the other one, i forget its name, it records super fast
<nixternal> although it makes it look like i can type 500wpm
<mdke> istanbul
<nixternal> ya that's it
<mdke> popey is much more tech about the whole thing
<nixternal> i know the name was familiar
<popey> i don't use istanbul
<popey> i use xvidcap
<popey> much better
<popey> (for what I need) :)
<nixternal> i tried xvidcap as well, but i was to stupid to work it :)
<popey> nixternal: http://quickones.org/ has my screencasts I am migrating to doc.ubuntu.com
<popey> they were made with xvidcap & qemu
<nixternal> one kubuntu screencast :)
<nixternal> to much brown on that page for me ;p
<popey> heheh
<popey> and a windows desktop :)
<nixternal> first time i seen one of them in action in a while
<popey> what? a windows desktop :)
<mdke> when is the Kubuntu brown theme going to come out?
<popey> I had to install it inside qemu because I don't have any windows machines
<popey> hehe
<nixternal> mdke: NEVAH!
<mdke> that's what you think
<popey> time for bed
<popey> nn
<mdke> popey: db created :)
<mdke> and user
<popey> ahh
<popey> mail it to me?
<popey> will set it up tomorrow morning
<mdke> ok
<mdke> good night!
<mdke> popey: still here quickly?
<popey> yes
<popey> heh, you know me so well, I say I am off to bed, but often say it 3 or 4 times over the space of 2 hours before it actually happens
<mdke> we're all like that
<mdke> popey: a search for your gpg key on major keyservers returns two, neither of which is the one listed on one of your two launchpad pages. Can you give me the id of the correct one?
<mdke> ah, three on this keyserver
<popey> er
<popey> http://keyserver.ubuntu.com:11371/pks/lookup?search=0x57A4363C&op=index that one?
<mdke> ok, I've found that one now. You might want to revoke the others :) and merge your launchpad pages too
<popey> i have more than one?
<popey> https://launchpad.net/people/alanpope is the only one I use
<popey> ahhh
<mdke> merge this one into it: https://launchpad.net/people/alan-pope
<popey> how do you do that?
<popey> or can I delete that one?
<mdke> follow the link on the base people page
<mdke> (https://launchpad.net/people/+requestmerge)
<popey> cool, ta
<mdke> ok, email sent, hopefully you can decrypt it alright
<popey> heh
<popey> lets hope so
<popey> I almost never use gpg, so will learn tomorrow ;)
<mdke> ok, cool
<popey> accounts merged, thanks] 
<mdke> god, it's past midnight already
<bdmurray> mdke: do you have a minute?
<mdke> bdmurray: yep
<bdmurray> I was noticing that _sometimes_ when there are instructions dealing with installing packages it mentions what repository they are from.
<bdmurray> I thought the repository might not be mentioned if it was main but it might be more than that.
<mdke> that's the theory, yes.
<mdke> potentially, it's not 100% properly applied
<bdmurray> so if main don't mention the repository and if not main then mention the repository?
<mdke> yes. Do you think that is sensible
<mdke> ?
<bdmurray> Yeah, it makes sense but maybe it should be written down in the style guide.
<mdke> yes. The styleguide needs some work. It also has lots of gaps
<mdke> as in, placeholder stuff
<mdke> bdmurray: btw, your attention to detail is phenomenal. Great stuff. You'd like trappist
<bdmurray> mdke: thanks.  It is nice to be able to actually fix the things I notice.
<bdmurray> Frequently there are things I can't fix.
<mdke> glad we got you in quickly
<bdmurray> I mean like on TV or in magazines. ;)
<crimsun> doesn't edgy enable universe by default?
<crimsun> if so, there's no point in mentioning the component if the package is in main or universe
<crimsun> rather, main, restricted, or universe
<mdke> crimsun: if it does, I didn't hear about it
<mdke> you're quite right, if that's the case
<bdmurray> I'm sure I have modified my sources.list but if /usr/share/doc/apt/examples/sources.list is any indication then it is just main and restricted.
<crimsun> dist-upgrade or fresh install?
<crimsun> I'll have to ping mvo tomorrow
<bdmurray> fresh install of edgy
<popey> mdke: not received your mail yet
<popey> (now I have figured out all my pgp stuff)
<mdke> popey: oh bloody hell.
<mdke> check your junk
<mdke> I think dreamhost got blacklisted today
<popey> ah
<popey> yes, it was in my spam
<popey> sorry, I *never* look there
<popey> ok mdke, got it
<popey> thanks
<mdke> how annoying
<popey> X-popey.com-MailScanner-SpamCheck: spam, SBL+XBL
<popey> yeah, looks like that was the problem
<nixternal> <para>For greater control over the boot-up services, install the <application>bum</application> from
<nixternal> hahahahaahah, good catch bdmurray :)
<LaserJock> nixternal: still about?
<highvoltage> hi, for documentation purposes, what's the correct way to install packages from a terminal? apt-get, or aptitude?
<pschulz01> highvoltage: I would suggest 'apt-get' but you need explain the situation..
<highvoltage> pschulz01: someone in my LUG insists that 'aptitude' is the 'default' on Ubuntu, and wants to change all our Ubuntu documentation to reflect this
* mdke_ evenings
<mdke_> highvoltage: no, we don't recommend any package manager. We say "install X", then refer to our installation documentation. As for Ubuntu, the default is gnome-app-install
<mdke_> highvoltage: from a terminal, there isn't a "default"
<mdke_> highvoltage: anyway, let's just hope "someone from your LUG" doesn't have svn access
<highvoltage> mdke_: hehe, yes.
<LaserJock> hi mdke
<LaserJock> mdke__: you here?
<mdke__> LaserJock: yes
<LaserJock> what were we using docteam.ubuntu.com for?
<mdke> LaserJock: remember our svn server
<LaserJock> oh
<mdke> we're still using it
<mdke> ;)
<LaserJock> I never remember the the name
<LaserJock> I always assumed it was doc.ubuntu.com
<LaserJock> I always grab the url off of DocumentationTeam/Repository ;-)
<mdke> I think docteam is better, gives more of an impression of being for the team.
<mdke> doc.u.c sounds like it should be the official docs
<LaserJock> yeah, people are often confused about the difference between help.u.c and doc.u.c
<mdke> and between help.u.c and wiki.u.c :(
<LaserJock> yes
<mdke> we'll find the right solution hopefully
<LaserJock> well, something's been brewing in my poor brain lately
<mdke> shoot
<LaserJock> I'm pretty excited about TBH
<LaserJock> and where the system docs are heading
<mdke> cool
<LaserJock> but I'm really feeling like the online docs on help.u.c need a fair amount of work
<mdke> the wiki ones, you mean?
<LaserJock> I've been trying to look at some of the other distro's online help
<LaserJock> no
<LaserJock> static docs
<mdke> I don't understand, those are the same as the system docs
<LaserJock> that's sort of my problem
<mdke> how can you be excited about them and disappointed at the same time
<LaserJock> because I'm excited about them in yelp on the user's computer
<LaserJock> but I'm less certain about how that will translate to online docs
<mdke> oh really?
<LaserJock> mostly from the point of view of the packaging guide and contributing guide
<LaserJock> but thinking about it as a whole too
<mdke> I'd hoped we would be able to merge the tbh stuff with the wiki in time for Feisty
<mdke> and then drop the distinction between static and wiki docs online
<LaserJock> my overall impress is that we view the online docs as just a byproduct of writing the help docs
<mdke> but it's not going to be possible
<LaserJock> *impression
<mdke> you think they require a different style?
<LaserJock> perhaps
<LaserJock> I'm still thinking about this
<mdke> I don't think we're going to be able to support two different styles online and in the system
<LaserJock> exactly
<mdke> and I'm not convinced there's a good reason to
<LaserJock> I'm a little concerned there
<nixternal> it would be difficult
<mdke> but we need to sort out the structure of the online site
<mdke> having a single wiki with good quality assurance will work
<mdke> instead of this static/wiki distinction we have now
<nixternal> i think we should change wiki.ubuntu.com to dev.ubuntu.com to distinguish as a developers site :)
<nixternal> or at least change the title at the top to Ubuntu Developers Wiki
<mdke> nixternal: that's absolutely right. I wonder if we can write a spec about that which is convincing enough for the developers
<mdke> that would be a real challenge
* mdke senses excitement
<nixternal> mdke: i wonder if we approach sabdfl about it first and see if we can get a blessing?
<nixternal> his backing would help
<mdke> no difference really
<nixternal> truthfully, i think we could excite enough devs
<nixternal> to make a change
<mdke> you'll need to work as hard to convince him as to convince anyone else
<nixternal> very true
<mdke> but if we do a good writeup, get some feedback, address peoples' issues, it might be workable
<mdke> what would be the arguments against?
<nixternal> people have wiki.ubuntu.com bookmarked
<willvdl> confusion for one
<nixternal> and ya what will said
<mdke> why confusion?
<mdke> it's confusing now
<nixternal> although people are already confused by wiki.ubuntu.com and help.ubuntu.com
<willvdl> no matter what structure you take it will be confusing in a way
<nixternal> so dev.ubuntu.com would definitely end the confusion
<mdke> because the site is named after the software that runs it, even though it's the same software that runs www.ubuntu.com and help.ubuntu.com. That's crazy
<mdke> naming sites after software is bad
<willvdl> since some bits are here and others there
<willvdl> In my opinion it would be more fruitful to spend time on demystifying it up front
<nixternal> mdke, i got you there. drop the wiki, make it dev or devwiki, or anything that screams DEVELOPERS ONLY
<nixternal> well not screams it, but distinguishes it
<mdke> there is one disadvantage I can think of
<nixternal> LaserJock: where are you at :) you are the grand puba, help a brothah out
<mdke> the difficulty in communicating in another way that the site (dev.u.c or whatever) is editable by all
<LaserJock> nixternal: what?
<nixternal> hehe
<nixternal> making sure you were awake
<LaserJock> I could also see where people would also expect it's only for devs "personal playgrounds" or something
<mdke> willvdl: having some bits here and others there, where those bits are genuinely different things for genuinely different audiences, makes quite a bit of sense, tbh
<LaserJock> development.ubuntu.com is a little long
<nixternal> LaserJock: what do you think about s/wiki/dev
<LaserJock> maybe devel.ubuntu.com
<nixternal> or devel
<mdke> community.ubuntu.com
<mdke> the name isn't such an issue, though
<LaserJock> but then there is help.ubuntu.com/community
<willvdl> mdke, true but still needs to be distinguished
<mdke> LaserJock: that would disappear
<mdke> LaserJock: it would just be help.ubuntu.com
<mdke> willvdl: yeah, sure. Clearer urls would help, IMO
<willvdl> nixternal, I can't help thinking devel limits it in a sense
<willvdl> what about marketing etc. not strictly devel but still housed on the wiki
<mdke> that's right. It would have to be something like "community" or similar. Hell, Gnome use "live"
<nixternal> it will limit it from people creating pages called 'I_Can't_Get_Ubuntu_To_Install_Grub_Without_Reformatting_Or_Wiping_My_Entire_Hard_Drive_What_Should_I_Do_To_Fix_This_Please_Help_Me_ASAP'
<mdke> could they *be* more random?
<nixternal> :)
<nixternal> kde uses dev.kde.org or kdedevs.org or soemthing, need to look at bookmarks
<mdke> wouldn't hurt to have a look at a few projects
<mdke> I tell you what. I'll draft a spec soon and we can try and work out for ourselves whether we think it will work.
<nixternal> sounds like a plan
<mdke> play devils advocate for each other, try and figure out all the disadvantages
<mdke> then see where we are
<nixternal> community.ubuntu.com & help.ubuntu.com
<mdke> but it will need to be good if we are to convince people in a serious way, that sort of immense change is scary
<nixternal> well, i am sure we can pull enough examples from wiki.ubuntu.com and why people keep using it instead of help.ubuntu.com
<nixternal> in order to help us drive the issue a little bit
* mdke remembers how hard it was to convince people that help.u.c was a good idea
<LaserJock> heh
<mdke> it took several rewrites and several hostile CC meetings
<LaserJock> ogra still grumbles about that at Edubuntu meetings sometimes
<mdke> yeah. No vision :)
<LaserJock> well, right now he dislikes the redirects
<mdke> I see his point on that. we had a bug about those today.
<LaserJock> because he won't rebookmark or learn the help.u.c ones
<mdke> they are inelegant
<willvdl> is there a plan to eventually phase out (expire) the redirects?
<mdke> willvdl: no, but I'd love to make one
<mdke> do you have any ideas about that, or experience in terms of broken-linking issues
<willvdl> I managed to lose a few which Corey helpfully restored :)
<mdke> aha!
<mdke> lightbulb -> head
<willvdl> well where are people linking from? If it's inside the wiki then it is trivial to fix
<mdke> willvdl: no, problem is bookmarks/external links
<mdke> here's an idea
<mdke> we build something into the "Page Not Found" thing that Moin does, which says "If you are looking for documentation, you may find the page you are looking for on our documentation website, at help.ubuntu.com/community/$pagename"
<mdke> then we just scrap the redirects
<mdke> now, if someone finds a problem with that idea, I'm going to be angry
<mdke> because I'm pleased with it
<willvdl> I like it but then I don't link :P
<LaserJock> "But ... but ... I don't wannaaaaa!"
<mdke> seriously, disadvantages?
<willvdl> need to ensure that the Naming is maintained on community/$pagename from the original on wiki
<mdke> meh, Canonical have some special coders, surely they can do that
<mdke> that page already is clever enough to do a search for similarly named pages
<willvdl> e.g. wiki.u.c/MyWikipage  -> help.u.c/MyWikiPage are different
<mdke> willvdl: that's ok, because the pages were moved from the former to the latter without changing their names
<willvdl> always?
<mdke> yes, it was a "cp" command ;)
<willvdl> what if they were moved to a nested page?
<mdke> very technical
<willvdl> scratch that
<willvdl> run it by Matt Nuzum and see what he thinks?
<mdke> good plan. He'll probably be up actually
* willvdl checks #canonical
<willvdl> yip
<nixternal> [mdke]  now, if someone finds a problem with that idea, I'm going to be angry
<nixternal> [mdke]  because I'm pleased with it
<nixternal> LOL!
<nixternal> i find one problem with it though
<willvdl> what is our relationship with ubuntuguide?
<nixternal> none
<mdke> not good, unfortunately
<nixternal> and that as well
<mdke> nixternal: what's the problem?
<willvdl> pity. a lot of work goes in there.
<nixternal> Ubuntu Guide seems to enjoy providing people with a How To on breaking their system using 3rd party garbage
<nixternal> none mdke, I just wanted to see you get angry :)
<mdke> nah, it's good stuff
<mdke> willvdl: yeah. We've tried to pull the "please don't reinvent the wheel" argument on em.
<nixternal> a lot of their docs are fairly well written, however none is hardly tested
<mdke> also on ubuntu-tutorials
<nixternal> there are so many reinvented wheels out there now
<LaserJock> *sigh*
<LaserJock> I just pray that I do as little reinventing as possible
<nixternal> heh
<crimsun> I think I'll write some howtos for writing Ubuntu guides and rewriting KDE.
<nixternal> copy & paste :)
<mdke> this Ubuntu Tutorials guy is the one who I'd most like to see involved
<mdke> because he is doing great stuff
<nixternal> sudo apt-get --purge remove crimsun
<crimsun> nixternal: there goes 50% of universe, alsa, proofreading, bug triaging, and whatever else ;)
<nixternal> Error: crimsun has to man GNOME dependencies, however is a closed KDE user/lover
<mdke> sadly he doesn't seem to reply much to my emails/comments. It's surprising because he is an Ubuntu member and heavily involved with the community
<LaserJock> crimsun: well, I wanted to rewrite chuncks of LP and Debian's BTS/PTS the other day so so :p
<nixternal> crimsun: we have LaserJock to cover that :)
<LaserJock> bahahaha
<nixternal> hahaha
<crimsun> he's the other 50%
<nixternal> rofl
<LaserJock> whatever
<crimsun> mdke: does he respond on the forum?
<nixternal> crimsun: in order to rewrite kde wouldn't you have to know c++? from what i have heard gnome developers aren't intelligent enough to do so, of which most are 70 years old and were around for the initial creation of c
<mdke> crimsun: I haven't tried yet. I will though.
<nixternal> ubuntu tutorials guy == christer?
<LaserJock> nixternal: low blow, all the contribution I've done on Gnome apps has been in C++ :p
<nixternal> hehe
<mdke> nixternal: yes
<nixternal> hrmm
<nixternal> does that silly bot work in here
<mdke> (see our exchange in the comments here: http://ubuntu-tutorials.com/2006/12/22/ubuntu-tutorials-giving-the-planet-a-spin/)
<mdke> well, not so much an exchange, as me ranting on
<nixternal> hehe, it is a decent exchange, however i don't like the fact he didn't address you directly from what i can see
<mdke> yeah, I noticed that too. He deliberately avoided replying to me.
<mdke> but he replied to my email
<nixternal> ok good
<nixternal> i can't locate his username on freenode that he has on LP
<LaserJock> is he on IRC?
<nixternal> i remember talking to him on irc one day
<mdke> it's Kudaeyz or similar
<nixternal> actually LaserJock you and I were talking to him I think. you guys were talking about the Utah area or what not
<nixternal> I remember helping him with the LoCo stuff as well
<nixternal> but i thought he went by christer or something else
<LaserJock> hmm
<nixternal> hrmm. according to nickserv Kuyaedz was last seen 4 weeks 2 days ago
<willvdl> https://wiki.edubuntu.org/EdubuntuDefaultDesktopLanguage  --> I guess this should rather be in help.u.c without the "edubuntu" bit
<mdke> gotta love Newz, he's had a better idea still
<david_corrales> mdke: so, what's the fuss about :)?
<mdke> david_corrales: which fuss?
<nixternal> Christer is going by Zelut now a days and is currently online
<mdke> well found
<mdke> see if he will have a quick chat
<nixternal> oooh, what was Newz's idea?
<mdke> I think his objection was that the solution would appear on every 404, rather than just documentation ones.
<david_corrales> the whole wheel reinvention, et al
<mdke> david_corrales: you're asking why it's a bad idea to reinvent the wheel?
<david_corrales> no, I mean
<david_corrales> who's reinventing stuff
<mdke> ah, loads of people
<nixternal> i am going to create ubuntu-howtos.com now
<nixternal> i should, and then redirect it to our wiki :)
<mdke> if we manage to get a solution which shows a generic message for each documentation 404 on wiki.u.c, which links to the new page on help.u.c, that would be even cooler
* nixternal checks the domain name
<david_corrales> ahh
<mdke> actually, we have a list, david_corrales
<mdke> i'll dig it out
<david_corrales> too bad, since all those efforts could be unified
<willvdl> mdke, should be possible. it jsut needs to search the namespace on each site
<nixternal> www.quit-using-ubuntu-domain-names.org.com.net.info.tv :)
<mdke> willvdl: we can do a grep and then find and replace, or something a bit more subtle with the same effect
<mdke> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/IndependentDocEfforts <-- david_corrales (it's a bit out of date)
<willvdl> and if no match is found then it goes to default 404
<nixternal> hmm, that would make it easier, the custom 404 page most definitely
<david_corrales> mdke: thanks :)
<willvdl> essentially it is an automatic redirect if the page name appears on help.u.c
<mdke> willvdl, nixternal: newz being newz, he also has the technical side in mind, as well as the idea
<mdke> what a man
<willvdl> suggested rather than automatic
<david_corrales> ubuntu guide is filled with non-ubuntu repos =/
<nixternal> ya, newz is one of my favorite heros now a days :)
<mdke> the idea would be to have a list of the moved pages, and have the 404 page query it. If the page is there, it tells you it's moved, if not, the regular 404 page appears
<nixternal> that and if he messes me up, it is only a 2 to 3 hour drive to find him for payback
<willvdl> elegant
<nixternal> isn't it though :)
<willvdl> buy him something nice
<nixternal> haha
<nixternal> you guys work for Canonical, not me, so buy me something nice
<nixternal> im a poor student, w/o a job, or at least a permanent solution for a job
<mdke> you're presuming Canonical pays well
<nixternal> mdke: better than the GI Bill does I'm sure
<david_corrales> give him an ubucookie
<LaserJock> nixternal: +1
<nixternal> hehe
<mdke> nixternal: not sure
<LaserJock> I haven't actually made any money in years
<nixternal> ubuKookie here
<LaserJock> geeze, can't you KDE people learn how to spell ;-p
<nixternal> I make just over $1,000 USD a month for going to school
<david_corrales> LOL
<nixternal> i need money
<nixternal> well, the current consulting contract though will make my student life very comfortable for the year though
<nixternal> now if only i could get some free tickets, then i would be very happy
#ubuntu-doc 2007-01-04
<willvdl> I only get paid if I do some actual work...
<nixternal> ooh, i guess i wouldn't get paid then :)
<willvdl> which is why wheel reinvention si so fruitful :)
<nixternal> i must say, this contract i am working on is rather simple, but it is a cool job
<nixternal> only lasts a few more weeks though
<nixternal> 2 more weeks actually
<nixternal> willvdl: i am working on a wheel reinvention/polishing act
<willvdl> you're Polish?
<nixternal> working on a business management restructuring proposal as well as a new marketing guide for the chicago cubs
<nixternal> actually, yes i am polish, and swedish, and irish, and american injun
<LaserJock> that's a decent mix
<nixternal> i have just enough polish in me to make the dumb poloko jokes w/o getting beat up
<LaserJock> haha
<nixternal> hehe
<mdke> it all starts to make sense
<nixternal> im a 1/4 of each
<LaserJock> I've kinda lost track of what all I am
<nixternal> hahah mdke if i ever meet you i will make you pay for that one :)
<LaserJock> mostly western european
<mdke> nixternal: :)
<nixternal> hehe
<mdke> I've got some good stuff too
<nixternal> i know there is some italian worked in there with the polish side as well
<nixternal> but both of my grandfathers were 100%, one irish, one swedish (hence the Johnson I guess)
<nixternal> my dad's mom was 100% chawktaw (i can never spell that)
* mdke notes that his adsense revenue is spiralling up out of control
<nixternal> and my only livin' granny is a gentle mix of polish and italian
<mdke> today I've had 39 cents, world record!
<crimsun> Choctaw.
<nixternal> mdke: i have earned $0.2
<nixternal> err $.27
<nixternal> you have me by 12 cents
<nixternal> thanks crimsun :)
<LaserJock> off the top of my head, that I know of, I think I have  English, Welsh, Scottish, Irish, German, French (and French Canadian), and Swiss
<mdke> nixternal: what's your average?
<willvdl> what do I do with stuff like https://wiki.edubuntu.org/EdubuntuViaNetBoot?
<nixternal> still says 0
<nixternal> for average
<nixternal> i have had it for over a year
<nixternal> hahaha
<nixternal> in 1 year I earned $0.27. I need $99.73 before they cut my first check
<mdke> heh
<mdke> my average is 23 cents
<LaserJock> heh
<LaserJock> I think  my uncle makes something like $300/month on advertising on his website
<tonyyarusso> How's adsense work?  How much traffic do you need to make it worthwhile?
<mdke> he has a lot more interesting things to say than me, I guess
<nixternal> damn, now it says $0.26. Hell, I am actually losing money
<mdke> tonyyarusso: you need to write about the same thing all the time and make it interesting, then have some well placed ads
<tonyyarusso> mdke: Hmm
<LaserJock> mdke: he runs one of the most used near-death experience websites :/
<crimsun> yet another reason why I'd make $0 on ads.
<nixternal> i have just a Firefox button now.
<mdke> whoosh
<nixternal> i got sick of the the adsense bar with ads for Linspire and Gentoo
<nixternal>  563   3   0.53%   $0.46   $0.26
<nixternal> there is my killer adsense report
<nixternal> haha
<LaserJock> that stuff just creeps me out
<crimsun> nothing should faze one-third of the motu trinity.
<LaserJock> I know
<LaserJock> but it's just ridiculous what you can do with an internet connection
<willvdl> exactly why I'm going to bed now
<nixternal> hehe
<nixternal> LaserJock: or can't do with an internet connection
<willvdl> ciao
<mdke> 3 clicks, that's very good
<mdke> crimsun: who are the motu trinity?
<crimsun> mdke: imbrandon, bddebian, and LaserJock
<nixternal> haha
<mdke> not you?
<nixternal> crimsun is the matrix
<crimsun> gosh no, I'm a mere mortal.
<mdke> dholbach?
<LaserJock> mdke: he's the one that rules them all ;-)
<nixternal> there is no question that I have seen crimsun not answer
<LaserJock> crimsun's the one that does all the work
<crimsun> there are plenty, rich
<nixternal> man, i sore mpt's domain said ds.testicular.net
* mdke hugs mpt
<nixternal> i need food, my eyes are messed up
* mpt belatedly hugs mdke 
<mdke> :)
<ryanakca> nixternal: can I say "oh crap"? This patch I'm writing... it will need to be remade each and every new release of doc-linux-html...
<nixternal> ewww ryanakca
<ryanakca> nixternal: my reaction as well :)
<ryanakca> nixternal: almost worth writing something to automate it..
<nixternal> or deleting it :)
<ryanakca> nixternal: someone in #python and I tried to write a script... didn't work very well
<ryanakca> yeah... three quarters of the stuff in it is obsolete... aka, written when I was in kindergarten, or before...
<nixternal> lol
<ryanakca> I've got 3 hours... and I'm a third done...
<nixternal> i remember living in the linux documentation project in the early to mid 90s
<ryanakca> I'm wondering if it's worth the 9 hours of volunteer hours
<nixternal> back when you had to configure everything before it would work
<nixternal> ootb was the same as cussing back then
<ryanakca> early 90s... '92 was the magic year, eh?
<ryanakca> ootb?
<nixternal> out of the box
<nixternal> no such thing back then
<ryanakca> ah
<nixternal> man, i remember when lilo would kill systems
<nixternal> heh, i remember leaving slackware just a few years back to venture in mepis and then kubuntu. i was like wth is this grub junk :)
* ryanakca remembers debian in 2004.... hehe... I found it... difficult... probably because it was the first time I had used linux and I was stuck on the command line for a month because I couldn't get Xfree to work... can't imagine having to configure your whole system...
<ryanakca> did Xfree86 get renamed to Xorg or something? or are they two different projects? X11?
* ryanakca googles it
<ryanakca> nixternal: ah, so XFree86 is a project owned by X.Org?
<nixternal> ya, it has been shortened :)
<ryanakca> kk
* Starting logfile irclogs/ubuntu-doc.log
* Starting logfile irclogs/ubuntu-doc.log
<WaterSevenUb> I've been a little bit out of phase with docs, perhaps this is already corrected. In the Edgy "Contribute" document, Section "Spreading the Word", there is a reference to "Going Local" which is not hyperlinked, therefore translations won't work.
<WaterSevenUb> I mean... there should only be one reference to "Going Local" in all the document, to avoid different translations across the document (small, in this case)
<Seveas> mdke, ping
<Nafallo> hi! is this the place to get things on help.ubuntu.com fixed? :-)
<nixternal> Nafallo: yes
<LaserJock> nixternal!
<LaserJock> do you ever sleep?
<nixternal> oi JockStrap
<nixternal> im always asleep
<Nafallo> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/SwedishDocumentation
<Nafallo> :-P
<LaserJock> nixternal: haha, very funny
<LaserJock> ;-)
<nixternal> ahhh, Nafallo that is open for you to fix as well :)
<nixternal> that is the community wiki
<nixternal> holy cow them are some wild colors on that page
<Nafallo> it is? :-P
<nixternal> ok, i see that as a pretty major error there :)
<LaserJock> nixternal: swedes *rolling eyes*
<nixternal> watch it now :)
<Nafallo> LaserJock: lol
<Nafallo> same? :-)
<nixternal> i might be chicagoan, but damnit my last name is either Swedish or African American
<LaserJock> nixternal: hah
<nixternal> im guessing swedish as my great grandparents moved from there to chicago in the 1800's
<nixternal> ;)
<Nafallo> :-)
<LaserJock> I haven't found any swedish in me yet
<LaserJock> but I'm sure it's there somewhere
<Nafallo> so how to fix the damn thing so moinmoin doesn't crash? ;-)
<nixternal> i wonder if #language or whatever will fix that?
<mdke> Seveas: pong
<mdke> Seveas: (just leaving a message works too)
<Seveas> mdke, what's the rt mailaddress? :)
<mdke> I'm pm you it
<Seveas> gracias
<mdke> Seveas: is that about pastebin?
<nixternal> Nafallo: take a look at it now :)
<nixternal> i found the issue
<nixternal> i just don't know wth it really is
<Nafallo> nixternal: thanks :-)
<Nafallo> hhaha
<nixternal> http://paste.ubuntu-nl.org/464/
<nixternal> ^^ that is what caused the issue
<Seveas> damn the pastebin is slow...
<nixternal> pastebin was rather quick for me
<mdke> you must have connected first and hogged the connections :)
<nixternal> hehe
<nixternal> im sure i did
<nixternal> mdke: i can't believe i didn't see the answer to the info dialog with the lp doc
<mdke> the same point you raised also struck me
<nixternal> also, you replied to just me in that email if you hadn't noticed already, or unless you meant to do that
<mdke> oh, crap
<nixternal> lol
<mdke> no, I didn't notice that
<mdke> I'll do it again
<nixternal> ok, i figured i would let you know instead of forwarding it
<nixternal> just to be safe
<Nafallo> anyway, problem solved...
<mdke> WaterSevenUb: can you explain more?
<nixternal> hrmm. amazing what you can read when you scroll up :)  i was wondering what you were asking him to explain
<WaterSevenUb> mdke, System, Help, System Documentation, Contributing to Ubuntu, "Going Local" section on the left. "Going Local!" reference appears on section "Spreading the Word" (the fourth one in the list). In the .PO "Going Local!" appears in two different places, and therefore, may have different translations if no one reviews the document carefully. There should be one title in the .PO "Going Local!" and then reference it to pick up the trans
<WaterSevenUb> lations..
<WaterSevenUb> mdke, and.... nice catch in the log ;)
<WaterSevenUb> (hope that was clearer)
<mdke> WaterSevenUb: yes, clear now. If there are two entries in the po, that means the phrases must have a difference... any idea what it is?
<WaterSevenUb> mdke, hhhmm... perhaps not clear enough :-) I was just asking that the sentence "Join or start a Local Community Team - if you like
<WaterSevenUb>         Ubuntu, it is likely that others around you like it as
<WaterSevenUb>         well! See the "Going Local!" section for details."
<WaterSevenUb> when reference "Going Local!" use a link rather than plain text.
<mdke> heh
<mdke> totally clear now
<WaterSevenUb> i.e., use a link with the content of "Going Local!" translation ...
<mdke> I'll fix that now, but only for Feisty, it won't be fixed in Edgy, I'm afraid
<mdke> done
<WaterSevenUb> mdke, don't worry, no problem since the document is small. In larger documents becomes a problem in our distributed translation model :)
<WaterSevenUb> and thank you.
<mdke> thanks for submitting it
<WaterSevenUb> btw do you plan a new u-docs upload in Edgy or what you said is just because there won't be any upload?
<mdke> I've applied for permission to do a new upload with some fixes to important bugs, but they haven't considered it yet
<mdke> as for translations, we could do one, what do you think?
<WaterSevenUb> you can easily make a diff of new translations vs last upload per language, right? I guess there are languages with no changes and languages with a lot of changes.... so, I don't know:)
<mdke> WaterSevenUb: not easily, no
<WaterSevenUb> well sometimes a few string changes with corrections are as important as 100 new strings translated. Anyway, imho I would upload only if there is a request of some team member.
<WaterSevenUb> some script to easily generate statistics from all the ubuntu docs documents would be of great help for you :)
<mdke> well, the problem is that we have to download the po files and then repair all the errors before we can analyse the changes
<mdke> danilo showed me how to ensure that I can upload fixes we do to translations back to rosetta, but I haven't implemented that yet
<WaterSevenUb> hhmm... that seems great to ease your work. I guess the only thing that you (can) do with small effort is to compare UDOC_LC_versionX.po with UDOC_LC_versionY and make a report for every language of Changed, New, Unchanged... strings...
<mdke> sounds a bit complicated
<mdke> we haven't even got the basics working yet :D
<WaterSevenUb> :)
<somerville32> Where are things like "&printng;" defined?
<mdke> somerville32: if it's a menu entry in an Ubuntu document, then the answer is trunk/ubuntu/menus/C/printing.xml and trunk/ubuntu/libs/ubuntu-menus.ent
<mdke> if it's something else in a Kubuntu/Xubuntu document, then you'll have to point it out
<somerville32> Xubuntu doc
<somerville32> and it is a menu entry
<mdke> erm. It's not defined at all, afaics
<mdke> where did you see it?
<somerville32> I'm editing
<somerville32> aka, I added it :] 
<somerville32> So I created a new xml file in menus/C/
<mdke> that's right
<somerville32> and I need to edit libs/ubuntu-menus.ent now?
<mdke> then add it to xubuntu/libs/xubuntu.ent
<mdke> there isn't an ubuntu-menus.ent for xubuntu
<somerville32> kk
<mdke> somerville32: we'll look forward to your patch :)
<somerville32> :D
* somerville32 hugs mdke.
<somerville32> Ok
<somerville32> patch ready! :D
<mdke> send it and ping luzi about it too to make sure all is ok
<somerville32> mdke: I dunno if luzi is still around. Luzi said that he wasn't going to be able to devote too much time.
<somerville32> Infact, I don't think anyone has touched Xubuntu documentation since breezy
<somerville32> mdke: Can you confirm that?
<mdke> ok, we'll do something else. Hang on, phone
<somerville32> k
<somerville32> mdke: Is it alright for me to e-mail the patch or are we going to do something different?
<mdke> pls email, yeah (still phone)
<somerville32> mdke: sent
<mdke> somerville32: right, I'll give you some feedback on the patch now, if you like. then, you promise me you'll be a good boy in future, and I'll fast track your svn access through
<somerville32> ok :] 
<mdke> number one, did you use the validate.sh script?
<mdke> always use it before committing/making a patch
<somerville32> If I say no, will you promise not to hit me too hard?
<somerville32> I thought that maybe it would be used in the makefile
<mdke> well, I know the answer, cos I can see the error. Course I won't hit you
<mdke> hi JR
<Riddell> who's doing UWN?
<mdke> Riddell: #ubuntu-marketing, corey tends to boss it around, I believe
<somerville32> I am
<somerville32> Well, Corey and I are the "chief-editors"
<somerville32> mdke: Which file specifically has the errors?
<tonyyarusso> Meaning, somerville32 has to do the dirty work now and Burg beats on him if it's wrong ;)
<somerville32> haha
<tonyyarusso> Riddell: Why do you ask?
<mdke> somerville32: you need to use the validate script on desktopguide.xml
<Riddell> tonyyarusso: I have something to add but it seems to be in a password restricted gobby session
<Riddell> somerville32: how do I add something?
<tonyyarusso> Riddell: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuWeeklyNewsletter/EditingPolicies
<somerville32> Riddell: ufl@ftw
<tonyyarusso> Riddell: The password and server info is all there, and you can either add directly, or drop stuff on the Ideas page
<Riddell> why is it on gobby instead of just the wiki?
<mdke> because the wiki doens't permit two people to edit at the same time, I'll guess
<Riddell> is that much of a problem mid week?
<mdke> I assumed it was only done during some kind of sprint finish
<mdke> somerville32: ?
<mdke> somerville32: deal with Riddell first then we'll go through these errors
<somerville32> Riddell: We were working on it last night
<somerville32> Riddell: 3-4 of us. However, tonyyarusso can import back to the wiki.
<Riddell> meh, don't, I'm editing gobby now! :)
<somerville32> :D
<tonyyarusso> that reminds me...I was going to upload a file to the wiki for DBO
<somerville32> mdke: That error is scarry
<tonyyarusso> oops
<mdke> somerville32: no, it's actually not bad. I think maybe you'll get more errors when you fix the first one
<mdke> somerville32: so &printing; didn't work, as you can see
<somerville32> Worked for me :/
<mdke> yeah, there's a simple reason :)
<mdke> you didn't include it in your patch
<nixternal> mdke: do we have anything that is top priority for the tbh stuff as of right now? (besides adding content)
<mdke> do "svn add filename" then redo the patch
<mdke> nixternal: merging the book is number one for me
<nixternal> how are you going about doing that?
<nixternal> actually, merging won't be so much with Kubuntu as there is one brief chapter, which is nice
<somerville32> mdke: So, what does the error mean?
<mdke> well, by finding out things that are in the book and not in our docs, then adding them, but modifying the language so that it's appropriate for on-screen help
* nixternal gets to reading the book
<mdke> somerville32: can you pastebin it? Because I'm missing the printing file, I think it's likely that my error is different to yours
<somerville32> http://pastebin.ca/305426
<mdke> somerville32: yes, it is a different one :)
<mdke> that's the one that I saw in the patch
<mdke> ok, the first bit tells you the filename and the line the error is on
* somerville32 nods.
<mdke> then it says "element note content does not follow the DTD", which means that the contents of the <note> tag are not in compliance with the rules
<WaterSevenUb> (About your discussion on Wiki vs. Gobby for UWN ... If a team wants to start translating the UWN, what steps should it follow? Do you freeze the UWN on the release day? Do you usually use Gobby? How do we get access to the server? Thank you.)
<mdke> then it tells you ALL the different possible contents for a <note> tag
<mdke> then lastly, it tells you what it got instead (CDATA, which means text)
<mdke> in plain english:
<mdke> you need to do <note><para>Text</para></note>
<somerville32> WaterSevenUb: ask in #ubuntu-marketing please :)
<somerville32> mdke: Ah! k :)
<mdke> somerville32: I explained it long hand so that you can figure out any other errors you get in the future
<mdke> fix that, then run the validate script again
<mdke> then do the "svn add" thing, resend the patch, and promise faithfully to always use the validate script on stuff
* somerville32 promises.
<mdke> ok, cool
<somerville32> somerville32@serenity:~/code/xubuntu-documentation/xubuntu/desktopguide/C$ ../../../validate.sh desktopguide.xml
<somerville32> somerville32@serenity:~/code/xubuntu-documentation/xubuntu/desktopguide/C$
<somerville32> :D
<mdke> I'll apply for you to have svn access. It should not take too long. If anyone gets jealous, you were fast tracked because xubuntu needs more contributors and you are a well known Xubuntu legend
<somerville32> lol
<mdke> nixternal: we should do the same for Edubuntu (will and whoever else we judge to be reasonably competent with docbook)
<somerville32> I've never been called that before
<somerville32> Thanks :] 
<nixternal> hehe, if anyone gets jealous :)
<mdke> yw. See if you can drum up some more contributors
<mdke> nixternal: IT MIGHT HAPPEN
<nixternal> im jealous
<mdke> heh
<nixternal> for edubuntu cbx33 and ogra come to mind for access. I have no clue where everyone else went that was helping me
<nixternal> oh ya and will of course if he needs/wants it
<popey> mdke: uk
<popey> er, ok
<nixternal> hee
<nixternal> er, hehe
<mdke> nixternal: nod
<mdke> popey: now then. mod_rewrite first I think
<somerville32> ok
<popey> i checked and that seems to be there
<somerville32> updated patch submitted
<mdke> somerville32: good job :)
<mdke> popey: damn
<somerville32> Thanks :] 
<nixternal> i would say hedgemage but i have no idea where she went. i hope everything is ok with her and her family. i know her husband was having some military injury complications (nothing life threatening)
<mdke> popey: it's rewrite.load is it?
<popey> alan@hudson:/srv/doc.ubuntu.com/www/screencasts$  grep -R  mod_rewrite /etc/apache2/
<mdke> yes
<popey> /etc/apache2/mods-enabled/rewrite.load:LoadModule rewrite_module /usr/lib/apache2/modules/mod_rewrite.so
<somerville32> mdke: When will I know if I got svn access?
<nixternal> somerville32: you will get an email
<mdke> somerville32: when they email your password to you
<nixternal> encrypted
<somerville32> mdke: Alright. Are you going to apply my patch?
<mdke> somerville32: yes
<mdke> popey: so the obvious solution is out the window
<popey> any thing in error.log?
<mdke> let's see
<popey> obviously it works on my server so comparisons can be made
<popey> right, i have it i think
<popey> AllowOverride AuthConfig
<popey> actually
<popey> could be
<popey> AllowOverride All
<popey> http://www.chovy.com/web-development/mod-rewrite-rules-you-can-live-with/
<mdke> error.log isn't helpful
<popey> "AllowOverride All will allow you to use mod rewrite rules in your .htaccess file."
<popey> can you set allowoverrid all in my virtual host config?
<mdke> oh, you think .htaccess isn't turned on at all?
<popey> it appears not
<mdke> I think I'll turn it on globally
<mdke> is #AccessFileName .htaccess
<mdke> enough?
<popey> yeah
<popey> ./screencasts/.htaccess
<mdke> I don't need AllowOverride as well?
<popey> i believe you need that as well, yes
<popey> I thought you meant "is it enough to use just that filename"
<mdke> search for .htaccess in apache2.conf and read the lines above and below it, and let me know what I need
<somerville32> If you set AllowOverride All, you can change pretty much any of your vhost settings in the .htaccess file
<mdke> does that need to be inside <Directory>?
<popey> to be fair you only need to change it in doc.ubuntu.com
<popey> and yes, it can be
<mdke> I might as well enable it generally
<popey> yes, uncomment that chunk above the AccessFileName line
<mdke> those 4 lines. What about the bit below it?
<popey> yes
<mdke> leave that?
<popey> that needs to be there or people can browse to http://doc.ubuntu.com/foo/bar/.htaccess
<popey> and see all kinds of naughtyness
<popey> you don't want to serve that file up
<mdke> fine
<popey> http://quickones.org/.htaccess <-- it should do that
<mdke> ok, see if it works now
<popey> did you reload?
<mdke> yes
<popey> nope, still fails
<popey> http://doc.ubuntu.com/screencasts/faq is the test case
<popey> you can turn on the trace level of mod_rewrite to see if anything appears in the error log
<mdke> ok
<mdke> how?
* popey checking http://httpd.apache.org/docs/2.0/mod/mod_rewrite.html
<somerville32> mdke: Is svn access managed through the rt?
<mdke> somerville32: that's right
<popey>  RewriteLogLevel Level  ?
<mdke> popey: where?
<popey> good question
<popey> ahh, hang on
<popey> may have found something
* mdke wonders if we need  RewriteEngine On
<popey> no, i have that in .htaccess
<mdke> ah
<popey> i don't think rewrite is working
<popey> at all
<popey> for example in my htaccess i have a ErrorDocument 404 /index.php
<popey> which it is ignoring
<mdke> right
<mdke> it should be working, because I notice that they've configured it for the old days when help.ubuntu.com was on that server
<popey> aha!
<popey> you have it enabled in apache2.conf
<popey> but disabled in /etc/apache2/sites-enabled/doc.ubuntu.com
<popey> so i guess that overrides apache2.conf?
<popey>         <Directory /srv/doc.ubuntu.com/www/>
<popey>                 Options Indexes FollowSymLinks MultiViews
<popey>                 AllowOverride None
<mdke> oh dear
* popey mails the server admin
<popey>         ServerAdmin mdke@ubuntu.com
<popey> D'oh!
<mdke> heh
<mdke> ok, works now. Good job
<popey> w000t
<popey> we rock
<mdke> well, not sure about we, but you do anyway
<popey> ok, i need to edit all the urls to point to the local videos, but that's easy, need to tweak the faq and other bits and bobs
<popey> will do that tonight/tomorrow
<popey> next?
<popey> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ScreencastTeam ?
<mdke> ya
<mdke> it might be an idea to have the faq and similar things on the wiki, actually
<popey> agreed, I will type it up where it is
<popey> then we can just move it
<popey> point the site at the wiki - easy enough
<mdke> great. Something like ScreencastTeam/FAQ
<popey> yup
<mdke> I've noticed quite  alot of docs at ScreenCasts too
<popey> yes, i was brain dumping
<popey> i am simplifying that lot
<mdke> do you think those could become useful for the team, or did you envisage them to be more general
<popey> yes
<popey> I have started on a simplified version
<popey> problem is some people like to use different tools
<popey> and there are alot of screencasting tools to use
<popey> I should really focus on the one I use, as that works
<popey> (although now well for some people)
<mdke> well, the team should definitely have standard tools
<mdke> obviously the ones you are using now are the obvious candidates, if people want to change them, they can suggest the changes and try and justify them later on
<popey> ok, that's good, I have found a set that works for me
<popey> yes
<popey> or debug why the one I am using isn't working for them
<popey> (by the way I tried to join the moderated doc team on launchpad, any reason that I should not have been accepted?)
<mdke> sorry, brb
<popey> np
<mdke> popey: the moderated doc team is for people with svn access really.
<popey> ahh, ok
<popey> that's fine
<popey> ok, so "how to contribute"
<popey> we need some way to capture requested screencasts
<popey> a wiki page? ScreencatTeam/requests ?
<mdke> yes, with a capital R. Do you have a page like that already?
<popey> well, not so much requested, as planned
<popey> maybe I could put those in
<popey> it's on my personal wiki
<popey> http://popey.com/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?VideoDemos
<popey> I would also like to have a page (as I have on my wiki) detailing each one
<mdke> each request?
<popey> that way people can add to it before it gets made - not only make requests for the screencasts, but also the content
<popey> ok, here is an example..
<popey> http://popey.com/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?VideoDemos/WhatAreTheComponents
<mdke> ok, we can use the same structure as on your wiki
<popey> is one I think would be good
<popey> ok, cool
<mdke> and make a template for requests
<popey> yes
<popey> i had a kind of template http://popey.com/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?VideoDemos/WatchingVideos
<popey> that layout
<mdke> ok
<popey> so people understand whats going to be in it before it is recorded
<popey> and people could add to that
<popey> we could also juggle the list on the Requests page to prioritise them
<mdke> we can use a little box
<popey> at the moment I am just plucking them off a list
<mdke> people simply insert the name of their request in the box, the template appears, and they fill it out
<popey> sounds whizzy
<mdke> then they save the page and it appears in the list of requests on the parent page
<popey> can you do that?
<mdke> yes. it's easy
<popey> how about a vote system?
<popey> people ++ the ones they would like to see?
<popey> or is that OTT?
<mdke> that's interesting. Can Launchpad help with that?
<mdke> if not, manually would work
<popey> ok, can I leave that to you? or someone else?
<mdke> we can sort it out when we have the request list working
<popey> ok, cool
<mdke> the other aspect of "How to Contribute" is a guide to helping people get involved
<popey> how so?
<mdke> well, telling them how they can make a screencast and join the team
<popey> right, part of that is tha guide
<mdke> is there already one in existence?
<popey> not a good one
<popey> I am distilling the rather verbose and technical one I wrote
<mdke> ok
<mdke> plenty of time
<popey> just typing up what is to-do
<mdke> cool. I will update the wiki page in a bit
<mdke> Launchpad Policy - any initial thoughts?
<popey> with respect to membership?
<mdke> what sort of contribution workflow do you envisage?
<popey> i dont right now
<mdke> I notice ubuntuclips has a mechanism for visitors to submit clips for evaluation
<popey> not sure what is possible with launchpad wrt workflow
<mdke> it would be nice to do that
<popey> yes
<popey> ok then..
<popey> i would envisage that people should submit a spec for one
<mdke> you mean the template discussed earlier?
<popey> rather than submit a video, because once the video is made (time consuming) to throw it away and ask for it to be recreated is a bit much
<popey> yes
<mdke> ok
<mdke> and then discussion on mailing list, you think?
<mdke> is there a way for a video to be submitted for evaluation in the cms?
<popey> uhm
<popey> there can be yes
<popey> it's very easy to knock a contact page up with specific fields like URL to video
<popey> you don't want them uploading
<mdke> in that case, contribution requires the ability to host
<mdke> do you immagine that would be a limiting factor on contribution?
<popey> no, not if people upload to google/youtoob
<popey> and submit a url to that
<mdke> ok, that's the way to go
<popey> then if accepted we ask for them to send us the video proper - the master
<popey> or they can upload to archive.org for nothing
<mdke> google/youtube sounds fine
<popey> but we really don't want people uploading any old crud to d.u.c
<mdke> sure
<popey> we would have to start sanity checking it
<mdke> as for the Launchpad team, it should probably be the people who have access to actually add new videos
<mdke> in which case membership policy should be "moderated"
<mdke> make sense?
<popey> yes
<mdke> we can add people who submit a few videos which get approved
<mdke> ?
<popey> yes
<mdke> ok, anything else you wanted to talk about?
<popey> user maint is easy, they register themselves, we tick a box that says they can upload
<popey> just need to summarise my to-do list
<mdke> I'll write up what we've discussed on the wiki
<popey> oh ok
<mdke> in terms of what is ready to be presented already on the ScreencastTeam page
<popey> here's what I have as my to-do
<popey> * Update URLs in existing videos to point to local videos
<popey> * Update quickones site to redirect all visits to doc.ubuntu.com/screencasts
<popey> * Migrate & reformat http://popey.com/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?VideoDemos to https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ScreencastTeam/Requests
<popey> * Create https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ScreencastTeam/RequestTemplate
<popey> * Update https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ScreencastTeam/HowToRecordScreencasts
<popey> * Update google video texts to point to d.u.c/s
<mdke> scratch the "HowTo" part (personal itch of mine)
<mdke> RecordingScreencasts
<popey> * Modify FAQ then migrate to https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ScreencastTeam/FAQ
<popey> ok
<mdke> and it should probably be ScreencastTeam/Requests/Template
<popey> ok
<mdke> looks fabulous to me
<popey> :)
<popey> I am happy that it's moving forward
<mdke> me too
<mdke> just finishing the wiki page
* mdke narrowly avoids RSI
<mdke> popey: let's disable the forum section too, and we even point "Contact" to the main wiki page
<mdke> wiki page is ready for your review, btw
<popey> cool
<popey> forums disabled
<popey> contact form disabled also
<mdke> once you create those two pages linked on that, I'll do the form for submitting new specs, then I think we can do some publicity
<popey> ok
<popey> I am adding a link at the top right next to the "Home" tab to link to the launch pad team page, and one to the wiki page
<popey> what do you want the titles to be?
<popey> just Team and Wiki ?
<mdke> hmm.
<mdke> not Wiki, it's not very descriptive. Contribute?
<popey> http://doc.ubuntu.com/screencasts/ how does that look?
<mdke> pretty sweet
<mdke> I wonder if we should hide the left hand column
<mdke> is user reg needed for comments?
<popey> no
<popey> they are moderated
<mdke> so, assuming the login is only needed for uploading screenshots, we could happily hide it..., and we need to get rid of "Create Content" anyway, because it's superceded by "Contribute"
<popey> true
<popey> it's messy
<popey> done
<popey> no blocks either side
<popey> to be honest the whole site is not really needed
<popey> :)
<mdke> User Login is still there
<mdke> anyway, the comments column on the right was ok, wasn't it?
<popey> ah, ok, i don't see that because I am logged in
<mdke> nod
<popey> yeah, thought that was next on your cull list though
<popey> and if people DO register they need some way to login
<mdke> but if you remove the User Login thing, they won't register
<mdke> they can just post comments anonymously
<popey> they can
<mdke> so we can get rid of the concept of registration/logging in (except for those uploading videos), and retain comments, right?
<popey> as I say this site is going to become a bit redundant if we can just migrate the content to the wiki surely?
<popey> what's wrong with each entry being a wiki page?
<popey> brb
<mdke> popey: I think it works well to have the published content on an official looking site, and plus, the wiki wouldn't handle all those attachments very well :)
<mdke> popey: couple of minor things: probably the license post can be un-stickied (although it should be made clear somewhere), the title of the cms is still quickones.org and
<mdke> and nothing!
<somerville32> With SVN, what does G mean?
<somerville32> ie. G    about/xubuntu-index.html
<mdke> hmm
<mdke> somerville32: it means you have a local modification which is inconsistent with an update that has been done on the server
<somerville32> And... why would that occur if you applied my patch? lol
<mdke> i.e. you changed something after making the patch,
<somerville32> Can't be
<somerville32> All the files I edited are marked G
<mdke> bizarre
<somerville32> However, svn status doesn't show the G
<mdke> even more bizarre
<mdke> delete them and do "svn up". or alternatively, read the svn docs :)
<somerville32> At my the latest revision
* popey returns
<mdke> I'm confident I applied the correct patch
<somerville32> Err...
* somerville32 nods.
<somerville32> Are you sure G means that?
<popey> ok, good, i was in two minds about whether to keep that site or not, and the fact that we can't easily embed in the wiki solves that :)
<mdke> not 100%
<mdke> popey: cool
<somerville32> mdke: "The U and G codes are no cause for concern; those files cleanly absorbed changes from the repository."
<trappist> G is merge.  you have a local change that was left intact while a change from the repo was merged to the file.
<somerville32> The changes being my changes
<trappist> like, your change wasn't in the same place as the other change
<mdke> that's very odd, given that I simply applied his patch
<somerville32> From the odcs
<somerville32> *docs
<somerville32> It looks like if you have local changes, you'll get G
<somerville32> So, the changes were the same
<trappist> somerville32: or C :)
<somerville32> So it "merged" correctly
<somerville32> So I got a G
<trappist> G is good
<trappist> C is bad
<somerville32> Right
<mdke> why did it need to merge at all?
<somerville32> mdke: Because I was a revision behind
<mdke> it should have been identical
<somerville32> Right, it was
<mdke> hmm. Ok
<mdke> hi trappist!
<trappist> mdke: if the local change was the same as the upstream change, I think that results in a merge - if it was slightly different you'd get a conflict (C) and if it wasn't there at all you'd get a U (update)
<trappist> heya mdke :)
* somerville32 nods.
<mdke> popey: are we done? thanks very much for this evening
<somerville32> In svn status, I still have this: A      menus/C/printing.xml
<mdke> oh crap
<mdke> I need to add that too, even though you already added it in your patch
<mdke> that's crazy, but still
<mdke> done
<somerville32> lol
<somerville32> now I get errors :] 
<popey> mdke: we are, just playing around with the site right now, will do the to-do list over the next 24 hours, thanks for all your "input" :) *much* appreciated
<mdke> :)
<somerville32> How do I remove a file from svn?
<somerville32> svn del?
<nixternal> somerville32: svn revert menus/C/printing.xml
<nixternal> then 'svn update'
<nixternal> w/o the quotes
<somerville32> I already did svn del
<somerville32> And it appears to have worked with the svn update
<mdke> svn status shows?
<somerville32> ?      feisty_update.diff
<somerville32> !      .
<somerville32> !      menus
<somerville32> doh
<mdke> use "rm" then "svn up"
<somerville32> rm menus or what?
<mdke> yes, rm -r menus
<somerville32> Perfect.
<popey> mdke: one last thing - I need a cron job creating on that box
<popey> 05 * * * * root /usr/bin/wget -O - -q http://doc.ubuntu.com/screencasts/cron.php
<mdke> popey: ok
<mdke> popey: I'm not used to seeing "root" in a line. Don't I just sudo crontab -e and then insert the necessary stuff?
<popey> that was taken directly from /etc/crontab
<popey> but yes
<mdke> ok, I'll stick to what I'm used to, I guess
<popey> sure
<mdke> each hour?
<popey> I will soon poke you if it tells me it last ran 13 hours ago (as it does now)
<popey> yeah
<popey> any number of mins past
<mdke> alright, done
<popey> cool, ta
<popey> how many mins?
<mdke> 05
<popey> $ date
<popey> Thu Jan  4 18:04:53 EST 2007
<mdke> just in time :)
<popey> \o/
<mdke> worky?
<popey> cron2007-01-04 23:05Cron run completedAnonymous
<popey> \o/
<popey> thanks
<mdke> np
<mdke> good night
<popey> nn
#ubuntu-doc 2007-01-05
<mdke> nixternal: oh, by the way
<nixternal> duh duh duh!
<somerville32> popey, drupal?
<mdke> nixternal: work was immensely slow today, so I braindumped about the wiki thing
<mdke> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ImproveWebsiteStructure
<nixternal> good deal. I will check it out after dinner and make some notes if needed
<nixternal> i clean out my desktop cases once a month. last month i moved my machines closer to the door in order to receive some cooler air. wow they are dustier after doing that
<mdke> ok
<mdke> mpt: you might take a look too, and give some feedback. We were just playing with ideas
<popey> somerville32: yes
<tonyyarusso> somerville32: what about drupal?
* tonyyarusso is researching cms and blog software....sorry
<popey> a site i setup on doc.ubuntu.com is drupal based
<popey> we were talking about it just before you arrived
<tonyyarusso> ah
<popey> http://doc.ubuntu.com/screencasts
<somerville32> popey, I have a lot of experience with Drupal if you need any help
<popey> thanks somerville32
<popey> its pretty basic to be honest, not using most of drupal
<mpt> ooh, interesting problem
<somerville32> Oh noes! It is mpt!
* mpt cowers
<mdke> mpt: oh cool, you don't think the renaming thing is loony
* mdke hugs mpt 
* mpt hugs mdke
<mpt> I dislike URLs containing "wiki." on the grounds that that's an implementation detail
<mdke> good man
<mdke> I tell you something we have in the Italian community that we can't shrug off
<mdke> everyone, almost without exception, describes every page as a "wiki"
<mpt> haha
<mpt> That's sortof synecdoche
<mdke> bless you
<mpt> Well, kind for the thing, rather than whole for the part, I guess
<mdke> "wiki page" is quite awkward to say in Italian :D
<mdke> you have to say "page of the wiki"
<mpt> No nouns masquerading as adjectives in Italian?
<mpt> E.g. "wooden chair" becomes "chair of wood"?
<mdke> yeah
<mpt> (well, wooden is actually an adjective, but ykwim)
<mdke> mpt: was pleased to see you accepted that bug about the portlets being the wrong way round in the left column
<willvdl> mpt, do you not reckon that when folks are on a URL containing "wiki" it is perceived as an invitation to edit?
<mdke> i think that's the point we need to address
<mdke> willvdl: do you fancy adding that to Unresolved Issues?
<willvdl> mdke, at this time of night I don't fancy much other than my pillow
<mdke> willvdl: well, since I'm already on the pillow, I'll do it
<nixternal> ah there is plenty of time for sleep, now is work time :)
<willvdl> Unresolved Issues?
<mdke> yeah
<mpt> willvdl, I know that a small proportion of people in general pay any attention to URLs, but I don't know how much higher that proportion is amongst the sort of people who'd want to edit a wiki page
<willvdl> nixternal, it's 02:43 here. only reason I'm up is because I'm proofing edubuntu marketing materials for BETT
<nixternal> woo that sounds like fun :)
<mpt> willvdl, add an "== Unresolved issues ==" section to the end of the page if it doesn't already have one
<mdke> it does. I'll add the point
* nixternal doesn't want to look at any more marketing materials this week
<willvdl> ah, wasn't watching what page you were referring too :)
* willvdl is just getting cracking on them
<mdke> if people read urls, we wouldn't have the problem :D
<willvdl> mpt, I have a suspicion that when folks see "wiki" as synonymous to "open to contribution". Would be hard to establish though
<mpt> Perhaps, but a "Fix this page yourself" button at the bottom would have greater effect :-)
<nixternal> lol
<nixternal> mpt: +1
<somerville32> +1
<mdke> well, they both already have "Login to edit" at the top
<willvdl> would "fix this page yourself" not fit in the URL?
<mdke> anyway, point added
<mpt> gnargh
<mdke> willvdl: "at the bottom"
<willvdl> I have a widescreen, it fits in mine
<mdke> heh
<mdke> willvdl: try this one on your widescreen: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Hi_I'm_new_to_Ubuntu_and_I'm_having_a_hard_time_going_online%2e_My_wireless_net_work_card_is_a_Belkin_F5D7000-W_I_would_really_appreciate_it_if_some_one_told_me_how_to_go_about_this%2e?action=info
<mdke> credit: nixternal
<nixternal> hahahahha
<mdke> the truly awesome thing about that page is that he opened it twice
<nixternal> ?action=DELETE!!!
<mdke> it's already deleted?
<nixternal> ya
<nixternal> he did another one?
<mdke> see the link I posted
<nixternal> hahahaha
<nixternal> omg
<mdke> he varied it too. He added "here" to the end of the page text
<nixternal> haha, try this one on your widescreen
<willvdl> one of our edubuntu pages had a nice red banner inserted by a guy wanting DVD's to distribute
<nixternal> i have a widescreen and the link still split to 3 lines
<nixternal> i don't know how i let another one of his posts slip through
<willvdl> seems you have a nemesis
<mdke> lol
<nixternal> must be
<mdke> we need to think outside the box for a replacement for "wiki" though
<willvdl> is this the "dev" vs "wiki" etc debate from earlier?
<mdke> yes. willvdl the url is https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ImproveWebsiteStructure?action=show
<popey> heheh mdke that fits on one line here (the long url)
<mdke> you must have five or six monitors
<mdke> thank god tomorrow is friday. I really haven't had any sleep this week
<willvdl> mdke is there a LP spec ref? would like to subscribe
<popey> mdke: http://gallery.popey.com/gallery/screenshots/Screenshot_005 :)
<mdke> willvdl: no, I'll make one now
<mdke> popey: whoosh
<mdke> plenty of space left there too
<popey> taking the pee a little, usually i only have that one one screen :)
<willvdl> ah, perhaps we could make reference to www.kubuntu.com and www.edubuntu.org too
<mdke> nod
<willvdl> the edubuntu.org is a slightly different animal but hopefully it will endeavour to follow the same conventions
<mdke> who should be approver for that?
<mdke> jane, mark?
<willvdl> for what? edubuntu.org? probaby Richard
<mdke> for that spec
<willvdl> Jane does love wikis
<mdke> hmm
<mdke> I'll leave it blank for now
<willvdl> ok I'm getting silly. Ciao.
<somerville32> What about xubuntu.org?!
<mdke> potentially each of these derivative websites might need separate specs
<mdke> they all have slightly different structures
* somerville32 nods.
<bdmurray> what package provides gnome "disks manager"?
<bdmurray> The Ubuntu documentation refers to it as being in "System -> Administration -> Disks" but I don't see it there on Edgy.
<bdmurray> And I'm not sure if it is my install or the documentation.
<crimsun> removed due to upstream decision
<crimsun> (so, the latter)
<bdmurray> Okay, cool.  Why was it removed?
<crimsun> no idea about the actual rationale.
<somerville32> Apparently it was buggy or something?
<somerville32> Do we use docbook sgml or xml?
<LaserJock> xml
<nixternal> oi LaserJock
<LaserJock> hi nixternal
<LaserJock> theCore!
<theCore> hi LaserJock
<LaserJock> theCore: I just fired up emacs snapshot
<LaserJock> but the fonts look awful
<theCore> hehe, mine?
<LaserJock> which one is yours?
<theCore> the one at debs.peadrop.com
<LaserJock> ah, no
<LaserJock> the one in the repos
<theCore> try mine then
<theCore> just a sec
<LaserJock> theCore: what did you do to xchat?
<theCore> http://peadrop.com/files/Screenshot.png
<theCore> a bug fix
<theCore> bug 57951
<Ubugtu> Malone bug 57951 in xchat "xchat crashes frequently on quit" [Medium,In progress]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/57951
<LaserJock> oh yeah
<theCore> I need to get the fix into the repos
<LaserJock> so what did you do to emacs?
<theCore> it's a version from the emacs-unicode-2 branch
<theCore> the mighty emacs 23
<theCore> I update it about once per week
<theCore> and I sync with Debian once per month
<theCore> LaserJock: you probably want my .emacs too
<theCore> and read this http://www.emacswiki.org/cgi-bin/wiki/XftGnuEmacs
<LaserJock> theCore: your .emacs is on peadrop still right?
<LaserJock> I can probably svn it
<theCore> yep, but I need to remove the password before
<theCore> for some weird reasons, their is a password on it :/
<theCore> there*
<theCore> http://svn.peadrop.com/emacs/
<theCore> yep, it is working now
<theCore> svn co http://svn.peadrop.com/emacs/ emacs
<theCore> ln -s emacs/emacs.el .emacs
<theCore> to launch it, you will need a small script or add a .Xdefaults file
<theCore> that my little script I like to use: http://peadrop.com/files/emacs.sh
<theCore> (Vim lovers would probably laugh hearing me right now :))
<theCore> so much configurations
<theCore> hmm, hopefully I didn't kill LaserJock
<nixternal> bdmurray: don't worry about the quicktour stuff. i think we may eventually nix it
<theCore> LaserJock!
<LaserJock> theCore: so did you put the font in .Xresources ?
<theCore> LaserJock: I trying to
<LaserJock> it works if I do: emacs --enable-font-backend --font "Bitstream Vera Sans Mono-10"
<theCore> LaserJock: yep
<LaserJock> but I should be able to put that in a file somewhere
<theCore> LaserJock: I use a script for that, but I think I just found out a new way
<bdmurray> nixternal: okay, it wasn't much work to fix though.
<nixternal> no problem
<nixternal> we may be able to pull from it though
<nixternal> i have never taken a look at it personally though
<theCore> LaserJock: hmm... it seems that until they get rid of legacy font-handling codes, you will need the `--enable-font-backend' option
<nixternal> LaserJock: messing with emacs again?
<LaserJock> nixternal: yeah
<nixternal> i keep telling myself I am going to, but never get around to doing it
<theCore> LaserJock: in theory, I could patch it
<LaserJock> theCore introduced me to org mode
<theCore> hehe
<nixternal> there is a guy in the Chicago LUG, all he uses is emacs. he doesn't even use a DE at all. nothing but term. RMS's twin
<LaserJock> there's really not much of anything emacs can't do
<nixternal> heh, when you ask him what os he uses, he will tell you emacs
<theCore> nixternal: lol, there's even a guy who made an Emacs OS
<theCore> nixternal: he made init point to Emacs
<nixternal> that is scary
<LaserJock> yeah, my boss is sure that way
<LaserJock> even with OS X all he does is have emacs, acroread, and firefox
<theCore> http://www.informatimago.com/linux/emacs-on-user-mode-linux.html
<theCore> scary --^
<theCore> LaserJock: if you use my dot emacs, I recommend you change some of the values in custom.el (eg. the email address)
<theCore> LaserJock: also, I assume some basic packages to be installed, like nxml-mode and emacs-goodies-el
<nixternal> man i lost a system due to mem failure :(
<nixternal> trying to find replacement memory for cheap isn't easy
<theCore> LaserJock: also devscripts-el, debian-el and auctex
<nixternal> nothing more than ddr3200 is all i need, 512mb would work and of course 1gb would be swell. but the prices aren't there just yet
<theCore> LaserJock: do you got any other questions about Emacs, before I leave?
<LaserJock> theCore: no, I just wanted to figure out the font issue
<theCore> LaserJock: ok
<theCore> then, I am off for today
<theCore> see ya all
<mpt> How do I link to another element with an id= in the same document?
<willvdl> what's the policy on using CategoryArchive in the wiki?
<nixternal> mpt: <xref linkend="id"/> or <xref linkend="id">Blah</xref>
<nixternal> willvdl: i have no clue on the archive stuff
<willvdl> seems to be used but wondering how it relates to quality assurance spec.
<willvdl> anyhoo. it's FRiday and I'm going to drink beer rather.
<willvdl> see you all Monday
<jeffsch> mdke: has anyone suggested mydocs.ubuntu.com for the wiki?
<jeffsch> "mydocs" suggests ownership and thus the ability to add and edit the content
<mdke> jeffsch: no, not to my knowledge.
<jeffsch> mdke: ok. I'll add it to https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ImproveWebsiteStructure
<mdke> jeffsch: it doesn't really work for that, because there aren't any docs on the wiki
<jeffsch> hmm... I was thinking "documentation" and not "documents"
<jeffsch> but that's a good point
<mdke> there isn't any documentation either...
<mdke> we're talking about wiki.ubuntu.com here
<jeffsch> doh! my brain fails me once again!
<jeffsch> I'm seeing "wiki" but thinking "help" :(
<mdke> :)
<mdke> bdmurray: yes, we have a bug open about disk-admin
<bdmurray> mdke: what is the bug?
<mdke> bdmurray: that we have documentation about using disks-admin and the program isn't shipped anymore
<bdmurray> okay. just out of curiousity why isn't it shipped anymore?
<mdke> too many bugs
<mdke> ironically they wanted to remove it in dapper and I persuaded them not to on the basis that we had docs about it
<mdke> so they removed it at the beginning of Edgy and we just forgot all about that
<bdmurray> Is there an alternative gui disk admin tool?
<mdke> no, there was a discussion about it on the mailing list but we came to the view that we should simply remove the material on the basis that partitions are now mounted automatically
<mdke> or something like that
<bdmurray> okay, is looking at the server guide a decent idea?
<mdke> yes, that needs some serious attention. If you can see places to simplify it, that would be wonderful
<mdke> we also need to reorganise it a bit better. I'm going to work on that this weekend I think
<nixternal> braindump on w.u.c rename:  work.u.c, collab.u.c, meta.u.c, data.u.c, projects.u.c, create.u.c, jot.u.c, think.u.c, (dev or devel are still my favorites) </brainfart>
<nixternal> just trying to spark something here
* LaserJock shields his eyes
<mdke> how about dahood.ubuntu.com?
<nixternal> community is good as well, but like stated it is to much to type
<nixternal> haha
<nixternal> i love it
<nixternal> mdke.ubuntu.com :)
* mdke nods
<bdmurray> mdke: incidentally I don't see myself as a member of the ubuntu-doc team in launchpad
<mdke> bdmurray: an oversight by us. Did you apply?
<bdmurray> com.ubuntu.com would be a good short hand
<nixternal> lol
<nixternal> a head spinner
<bdmurray> mdke: what is the application process?
<mdke> bdmurray: "join this team"
<bdmurray> in launchpad?
<bdmurray> ah, found it
<nixternal> i can't register my wiki page on LP
<nixternal> someone else already has, but i have the actual wiki page
<mdke> w00t
<mdke> they've implemented the gpg plugin for squirrelmail on dreamhost
<mdke> nixternal: ^^
<nixternal> nice
<nixternal> makes it easier when im away from my computer
<mdke> now all they need to do is activate threading and all is at peace
<popey> evening mdke
<mdke> evening
<mdke> popey: good job today
<popey> thanks
<popey> just need to finish the how-to and flesh out some specs
* mdke nods
<mdke> then we'll start cracking on finding some people
<popey> agreed
<mdke> I wondered if it would be worth you chatting with the ubuntuclips guy on a one to one basis and trying to convince him to come on board early doors
<popey> yup
<popey> will do
<mdke> nixternal: having said that, I can't find the plugin. DH have been lying to me
<mdke> popey: cool
<popey> need to sort the "rules"too because we (me and him) differ on our ideas
<mdke> technical or social?
<popey> technical
<mdke> resolvable?
<popey> yeah, i am sure it is
<mdke> cool, I'll leave that to you :D
<popey> :)
<mpt> mdke, still around?
<mdke> mpt: yes
<mpt> mdke, the links I removed were to files that aren't there
<mpt> Are you intending to move them to that directory from somewhere else?
<mdke> mpt: well, you left one of them. And yeah, we can import them when they have reached a nice stable state upstream
<mpt> ok, I'll restore those links, and move them when there's a better place for them
<mdke> I thought maybe you felt they might go better in something like "Configuring the desktop"
<mpt> and use <xref> to fix my cross-references
<mdke> ok
<mdke> mpt: one more thing, about the presence of "What's new"
<mdke> you think it's worth writing those? people upgrading get the release notes in update-manager and online
<mdke> and in firefox too, now I think of it
<mdke> I hadn't envisaged shipping them with the help
<mpt> I'm not entirely sure what the release notes are supposed to be for
<mpt> (I reported a bug yesterday asking why they include instructions on getting Ubuntu)
<mdke> yeah I know, I rejected it
<mdke> :p
<mdke> but you'll need to talk to mdz or tollef I think if you're not satisfied with my response
<mpt> but just as helping people understand the differences between Windows and Ubuntu 7.04 will help them use Ubuntu 7.04
<mpt> so helping people understand the differences between Ubuntu 6.10 and 7.04 will help them use 7.04
<mpt> I'm talking about important differences in how to do things, not "we have rounded window corners now"
<mdke> that's very true. But i don't know if it justifies us maintaining a kinda slimmed down userfriendly version of the releasenotes just for that
<mdke> apart from anything else
<mdke> I bet you the important differences in how to do things aren't always in the dev's releasenotes
<mpt> Extra important for it to be in the help, then :-)
<mdke> it will be hard work for us to hunt it all down and write it up, given how much is already on the plate
<mdke> but still, we can mull it over
<mdke> mpt: a few other things about the patch
<mdke> you've also removed the links to the administration thing and the users/groups thing
<mdke> and the switching from windows material that I incorporated
<mpt> We have discussed that ten minutes ago
<mdke> mpt: no, we discussed the links to material that isn't there (the Gnome upstream stuff)
<mpt> <mpt> ok, I'll restore those links, and move them when there's a better place for them
<mdke> these are things that were there
<mpt> (I've just finished that)
<mdke> ok.
<mdke> the switching one obviously overlaps with your glossary thing, they should be combined
<mdke> that glossary stuff is really useful, btw
<mpt> Yes, that's what I meant by "I'll ... start incorporating relevant information from 'Switching From Windows'."
<mpt> So "If you've been using Windows" will link to a list of topics, of which the glossary is one page
<mdke> mpt: I'd already down the "incorporating relevant information" part. What you see there is a slimmed down version of "switching from windows". But that's cool, I'll leave you to that
<mdke> onto other things
<mdke> mpt: menu entries... we should use entities for these
<mdke> are you familiar with how we do those?
<mpt> ok, back up a bit
<mpt> You'd already done the incorporating
<mdke> yes, I thought I had
<mpt> Is there a reason for retaining the "Introduction", "Installing Ubuntu", etc topics?
<mdke> ok, I must have dreamed that then
<mdke> sorry!
<mpt> np :-)
<mdke> mpt: a quick side note on the installing section
<mpt> I didn't want to try and do all of that in one patch
<mdke> the help will be available from the live cd... I wonder if it's worth keeping that section on the basis that people might look for help being trying to use ubiquity
<mpt> In 7.04 Ubiquity is due to provide assistance in transferring stuff from Windows
<mpt> To answer your next question, I'm not familiar with how we do entities
<mdke> ok, we'll go through that quickly
<mdke> essentially, when you type &printing; in a document, it looks in trunk/ubuntu/libs/gnome-menus-C/ent (if that file is incorporated in the top of the docbook file), which in turn (if it has a "printing" entry) looks in trunk/ubuntu/menus/C/printing.xml, which provides the <menuchoice>blahblahblah</menuchoice> stuff
<mdke> so it's shorthand for doing the menu entry
<mdke> but more importantly, it provides a central place to change all instances of a menu entry, if one changes.
<mpt> Wow, creating a new file for every menu entry
<mdke> that is done manually as needed
<mdke> say for example that Ubuntu decides to make gnome-control-center the default instead of having those silly System->Preferences and System->Administration menus, it will potentially make it easier to update all of our menu entries
<mdke> follow me?
<mpt> yep
<mpt> good idea
<mdke> ok.
<mdke> however
<mdke> send the updated version of your patch, I'll apply it, and we can work on that after
<mpt> "Use &gnome-app-install; to install applications from Ubuntu&rsquo;s software library,..."
<mdke> that's right. Is it worth having links in the glossary to bits of the help too?
<mpt> actually, this is quite easy
<mpt> I'll do it now
<mpt> Yes, there should be such links
<mpt> I've included comments for some of them
<mdke> cool
<mdke> you'll need to include the new ubuntu/menus/C/*xml files in your patch in that case
<mpt> GEdit doesn't syntax-highlight entities that contain dashes
* mdke goes to do the washing up
<mpt> "Applications -> Add/Remove Programs"?
<mpt> On my system it's "Applications" -> "Add/Remove..."
<mpt> (of which we'd elide the ellipsis)
<mpt> Using entities does make the glossary code much shorter
<mpt> but if (say for example) Ubuntu decided to make gnome-control-center the default instead of having those silly System->Preferences and System->Administration menus, those entities wouldn't really save us any time in that particular case :-)
<mpt> We'd have a lot more to change in the relevant pages
<mdke> depending on how it was implemented, yeah - that occurred to me
<mdke> it was a crap example
<mdke> I was just dreaming out loud
<mpt> A better example is the stuff that was moved from System Tools to various other places
<mdke> don't rub in the badness of the example
<mpt> sowi
* mdke hugs
<mpt> hooray, my first new entity
<mpt> however, it has unwanted space after it
<mpt> and I can't fix that
<mdke> hmm.
<mpt> because there's always a newline at the end of the entity file
<mpt> and XML interprets the newline as whitespace
<mdke> they *all* have unwanted space?
#ubuntu-doc 2007-01-06
<mpt> So "&preferences;." ends up as "System -> Preferences ." instead of "System -> Preferences."
<mpt> Well, &administration; has the same problem
<mpt> so does &synaptic;
<mpt> Extrapolation: they all have the problem
<mdke> you're quite right
<mdke> how shit
<mpt> Lame workaround: don't use an entity as the last word in a sentence, or the last word in a clause, or the last word in a bracketed section
<mpt> Perhaps the Makefile can forcibly remove terminal newlines from all the entity files? :-)
<mdke> but synaptic.xml doesn't have a newline at the end
<mpt> It does when I open it
<mdke> mine ends on </menuchoice>
<mpt> whether I open it in gedit, or abiword, or bluefish
<mdke> I'm using gedit
<mdke> nano shows the newline though
<mdke> :(
<mdke> surely there is a solution to this nonsense
<mdke> froud: here by any chance?
<mpt> oh, bad news
<mpt> there's unwanted space before the entity, too
<mpt> I think that even if we solve the newline problem
<mpt> Entities would have to be a single line
<mpt> with no space between tags
<mpt> (except for the ones that are supposed to have spaces)
<mpt> e.g. <?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?><menuchoice><guimenu>Applications</guimenu> <guisubmenu>Internet</guisubmenu> <guimenuitem>Firefox Web Browser</guimenuitem></menuchoice>
<mdke> what a pita. Probably we can solve it somehow anyway, keep going on the important stuff for now
<mpt> yeah
<mpt> I'll report a bug about it so we don't forget it
<mdke> I'll write to a mailing list
<mdke> ok
<mdke> mpt: btw, did you check that your doc validates before making the patch? I haven't checked it myself
<mpt> No, how do I do that? With validate.sh?
<mdke> yes
<mdke> if it gives output, there are some issues
<mdke> yelp doesn't require perfect docbook, y'see
<mpt> I noticed :-)
<mpt> root and DTD name do not match 'glossary' and 'article'
<mdke> that sounds unusual. Can you pastebin it?
<mpt> It's because I was using "<!DOCTYPE article" rather than "<!DOCTYPE glossary"
<mdke> oh, you're not using <article?
<mdke> I didn't look at that
<mpt> and now the validator is *really* calling the waaahmbulance
<mdke> haha
<crimsun> hehe, the waaahmbulance.
<mpt> oh, I can't use <legalnotice>, <copyright>, etc as direct children of a glossary
<mpt> they need to be in <glossaryinfo>
<mpt> DocBook is a steaming pile.
<mdke> please don't use your own legalnotice stuff, just copy what we've done in other documents
<mpt> I'm using the entity
* mdke has a look at mpt's patch
<mdke> ah magic
<mpt> It's complaining about the stuff inside the entity
<mdke> you can put <title> inside <glossaryinfo> too
<mdke> then close it and begin the content
<mpt> according to TDG's example, I shouldn't have to
<mdke> TDG?
<mdke> oh definitive guide
<mpt> ok, their example glossary validates
<mpt> now to slowly turn it into mine, and work out what exactly fails
<mdke> mpt: I'm quite good at deciphering those error messages, if I can help (lots of practice)
<mpt> It's "Element glossary content does not follow the DTD, expecting <insert entire DTD here>, got <whole pile of stuff here>"
<mdke> ok, so the whole pile of stuff is the problem. You got the wrong child to <glossary>
<mpt> Inserting &legalnotice; in TDG's example <glossary> causes it to stop validating
<mdke> that should be inside <glossaryinfo>, I suppose. It's in <articleinfo> in our articles, and <bookinfo> in our books
<mpt> just tried that, no worky
<mdke> with <title> as well>
<mdke> ?
<mpt> "expecting (glossaryinfo? , (title , subtitle? , titleabbrev?)? , (..."
<mpt> Does that mean <glossaryinfo> has to come before <title>?
<mpt> or that <title> has to be a child of <glossaryinfo>?
<mdke> <glossaryinfo><title></title>&legalnotice;</glossaryinfo> ?
<mpt> aha, <glossary><glossaryinfo><title>foo</title></glossaryinfo>...</glossary> validates
<mdke> quite
<mpt> and so does <glossary><glossaryinfo><title>foo</title> &legalnotice;</glossaryinfo>...</glossary>
<mpt> hooray
<mpt> It annoys me that <listitem> requires <para> or similar
<mpt> ok, all validating now
<mdke> yes, that is unexpected
<mdke> same for <step> and such
<mpt> In other news, <xref> doesn't work
<mdke> your usage?
<mpt> It links to the top of the page, instead of the expected section
* mdke blinks
<mpt> <xref linkend="control-panel" />
<mpt> oh, am I missing a #?
<mdke> what version of yelp do you have?
<mpt> or is that an HTMLism?
<mdke> if "control-panel" is a section, it should link to that section
<mpt> Well, it correctly produces a link, and correctly gets the right title from the <glossterm>
<mpt> it's just that the link doesn't go to the right place
<mdke> it's <glossterm id="control-panel">, is it?
<mpt> <glossentry id="control-panel">
<mdke> hmm. Either it doesn't work with glossentry, just <section>, or you've found a bug in yelp
<mdke> only one man will know
<mpt> All the other parts of the linkage work with <glossentry>
<mpt> so I guess it's a Yelp bug
<mdke> I would have thought that is likely, given that glossentry is probably pretty rare
<mdke> file it, shaun will let you know soon enough
<mpt> Great, now I have a file that validates but that Yelp won't open
<mdke> mpt: that's extremely odd, nay, impossible
<mdke> any errors from yelp?
<mpt> "The file '/home/mpt/glossary.xml' could not be parsed. Either the file does not exist, or it is improperly formatted."
<mdke> any errors in the terminal?
<mpt> oh, oh, here comes bug-buddy
<mdke> have you got another instance of yelp open?
<mpt> Yelp-ERROR **: Did not receive a reply. Possible causes include: the remote application did not send a reply, the message bugs security policy blocked the reply, the reply timeout expired, or the network connection was broken."
<mdke> god
<mdke> more than one yelp instance?
<mpt> yes
<mdke> that's what always catches me out
<mdke> you're only allowed one
<mdke> Yelp demands it
<mpt> Then why does it open multiple windows?
<mpt> grr.
<Ubugtu> New bug: #78135 in ubuntu-doc "All entities have unwanted space before and after them" [Undecided,Unconfirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/78135
<mdke> thanks
<mpt> ok, now it opens
<mpt> thanks for the tip :-)
<mpt> I would have taken hours to guess that myself
<mdke> :)
<mpt> so now I have a nice testcase of the glossary link bug
<mpt> Reported http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=393341
<Ubugtu> Gnome bug 393341 in docbook "Clicking an <xref> to a <glossentry> doesn't scroll to that entry" [Normal,Unconfirmed] 
* mdke considers whether 1am is an appropriate time to begin the mammoth serverguide restructure
<LaserJock> sure
<mdke> correct!
<mdke> bdmurray: you're not working on it are you?
<mpt> mdke, updated patch sent
<mdke> mpt: great!! How are you feeling with docbook now? pretty good?
<mdke> or rather, as well as can be expected
<theCore> is there plans about the restructure of the docs
<theCore> ?
<mdke> theCore: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/TopicBasedHelp
<theCore> mdke: thanks
<theCore> Topic based?
<theCore> isn't it like Windows help system?
<mdke> mpt: newtoubuntu.xml doesn't validate
<mdke> I'll fix it though
<mdke> mpt: (missing <para> inside <listitem>)
<mpt> oh, sorry
<mpt> I only validated the glossary
<theCore> http://www.gnome.org/~shaunm/quack/mallard.xml makes a lot of sense
<mdke> mpt: "Ubuntu does not support faxing" <-- this should be changed to point at our doc for faxing
<theCore> but I got some doubts about it
<mpt> mdke, as for how I'm feeling about DocBook, the pain is encouraging me to get around to helping define the Mallard file format
<mdke> nod
<mpt> I'm thinking a very small subset of HTML, but with a couple of changes to the <a> element
<mpt> and with an <if> element
<mdke> I guess you kinda have an idea about what elements are needed
<theCore> does it means if Project Mallard get implemented the Help buttons will actually point to the exact documentation topic, not to the application manual?
<theCore> if so, I am in
<mpt> theCore, yes
<theCore> nice, need some help?
<theCore> that always been something I wanted to change
<mdke> mpt: committed
<mpt> thanks :-)
<mpt> theCore, irc.gnome.org/#docs is the best place for that
<mpt> (albeit that there are many fewer people there than here)
<mdke> mpt: so if you're feeling like you can commit things without breaking them, I would quite like to arrange for commit access. You've been hanging around for ages, and know your way around
<mpt> Well, as this patch has shown, I don't know my way around
<mpt> There were many basic things wrong with it
<mdke> I meant around the team generally.
<mdke> but in terms of docbook, lots of us have the same problem
<mdke> you just need to remember to use the validator
<mpt> That was one of them
<mpt> another was the entities
<mpt> another was removing the links to as-yet-non-but-soon-to-be-existent files
<mdke> that was bad communication between you and me
<mpt> and at the moment I present approximately 1 patch/year
<mdke> well, whatever you prefer
<mdke> if you're happy with patches, so am I
<mpt> ok
<mpt> If it becomes a bottleneck for either of us, let's reconsider
<mdke> fine
<mpt> but at the moment I don't trust myself that much
<mdke> crap this serverguide structure needs some speccing up
<mdke> i'll do it after having some sleep, I guess
<mdke> mpt: did you have any involvement in the gnome-control-center design?
<mdke> seems like the design could have some lovin
* mdke sleeps
<Burgundavia> mdke: ping
<mpt> mdke, none at all
<nixternal> Burgundavia: i knew you weren't one of us ;p
<nixternal> girlfriend shmrilfriend
* Jucato waves to nixternal
* nixternal waves back :)
<Jucato> nixternal: ping
<nixternal> yo yo
<Jucato> were you able to read the guide?
<nixternal> nah, i have been chilling. but do have it bookmarked :)
<Jucato> ah ok. coz it hasn't gone through peer review yet, at least the parts that I modified for Kubuntu
<Burgundavia> nixternal: I try
<mdke> morning
<MaxCombo> morning
<mdke> jsgotangco: ah, you reveal yourself! How's it going?
<jsgotangco> pretty good, if not pretty busy at the current work
<jsgotangco> im travelling again in a few days but in indonesia
<jsgotangco> but the sched is getting more saner as the days go by
<mdke> cool
<jsgotangco> how's yourself?
<mdke> very well thanks. My GF is away at home so I am doing a fair amount of procrastinating/Ubuntu work
<jsgotangco> hahaha
<jsgotangco> i haven't looked into any code for quite some time so i am rusty
<jsgotangco> in a way i miss it though
<froud> mdke: ping
<froud> mdke: was you looking for me?
<jsgotangco> wow froud how's it going on your side
<froud> good dude, happy new year
<jsgotangco> you too, how's business?
<mdke> froud: hiya yeah - nasty docbook problem that I thought maybe you would know the answer to
<froud> mdke: OK what's the problem
<mdke> mpt filed a bug, hang on
<mdke> froud: https://launchpad.net/ubuntu-doc/+bug/78135
<Ubugtu> Malone bug 78135 in ubuntu-doc "All entities have unwanted space before and after them" [Undecided,Unconfirmed] 
<mdke> it's about entities which are used for menu-entries
<mdke> this is an example of a file which is included: https://docteam.ubuntu.com/repos/trunk/ubuntu/menus/C/firefox.xml
<froud> mdke: which editor is doing that XMLmind?
<mdke> froud: I think most text editors, like nano, gedit, etc
<mdke> but also the whitespace after the xml declaration is a problem, according to mpt
<froud> Looks like an editor setup problem
<froud> I need to svn co
<froud> I will take a look at it for you
<mdke> thanks very much indeed
<mdke> I wondered if it was a bug in docbook
<froud> mdke: I don't think so because it does not happen when using VI or with me in Oxygen.
<mdke> hmm
<mdke> froud: but on the basis that some editors do it, we need to find a way to get docbook to handle it...
<froud> mdke: OK, perhaps we can add a method to santitize the xml during the build.
<mdke> froud: I think maybe the only method would be to use a script which removes the newlines and expands the entities, but it's a bit dirty
<froud> xmllint should be used with the -noent param
<froud> that should expand all ents
<mdke> yes, I don't have a problem with using that
<froud> mdke: anyway lemme complete the svn co and have a look
<mdke> froud: appreciate it
<froud> mdke: I have some time this weekend as it happens so time is good
<mdke> ok, well I still appreciate it :)
* froud goes back to desktop
<froud> mdke: question, is this new. iow, did something change to make this happen or has it always, just happened?
<mdke> froud: always
<froud> k. thx
<mpt> I was just picky enough to notice it
<mdke> I'd noticed it but I always assumed it was a problem with the file rather than the entity text. i didn't realise it was universal
<froud> mdke: when I build dg I get this, can't remember what this meant :-)
<froud> make dg
<froud> make: *** No rule to make target `../build/ubuntu/desktopguide/C', needed by `dg'.  Stop.
<mdke> froud: yeah, the building is all screwed at the moment. We moved all the documents around
<froud> he he
<mdke> the dg doesn't exist any more
<froud> ho k
<froud> So now me is on Kubuntu and install of yelp is lot sof gnome stuff depends
<froud> mdke: anyway
<mdke> yeah, that's true. I dunno if there is another good docbook viewer
<froud> this is not an editor problem
<froud> When xsltproc expand the ents it ads the whitesapce
<froud> This means we must consider preprocessing
<froud> i.o.w we create a temp.xml of the doc
<mdke> does yelp use xsltproc?
<froud> clean such circumstances and then use the resolved and sanitized temp.xml to build instead of the src
<froud> are you seeing the problem there too?
<mdke> yes
<mdke> I haven't tried anything except yelp, in fact
<froud> I think Yelp is depend on linxml2
<froud> libxml2 provides xsltproc
<froud> The problem is that yelp wants to read your xml
<froud> so you ship it
<mdke> I dunno what yelp uses to do the xml->html convertion on the fly, but whatever it is, it's got that bug
<froud> if you want to fix it, then you would have to ship the sanitized tem.xml idea I mentioned
<froud> or hack yelp to resolve the problem
<mdke> yeah. Not necessarily yelp, but whatever is causing the bug, libxml2 or whatever
<mdke> so you think that xmllint will expand the entity without creating the whitespace?
<froud> yelp I think is using xsltproc
<froud> let me check
<mdke> I'll ask
<froud> mdke: can you delete the last line in this file https://docteam.ubuntu.com/repos/trunk/ubuntu/menus/C/firefox.xml
<froud> then try the internet stuff in yelp
<froud> by last line I mean the blank line after the closing element
<mdke> froud: there isn't a blank line after the closing element
<mdke> froud: at least not when i view it in gedit. There is one when i view it in nano
<froud> Hmm in my file trust nano
<froud> or vi
<mdke> if I delete it with nano, and reopen it, it is still there
<mdke> so I don't trust nano
<froud> k
<mdke> it's not there in vi either
<froud> OK
<froud> xmllint --noout --xinclude --noent --postvalid path to doc
<froud> that will give you a complete xmlinsance
<froud> instance
<mdke> we should make a small test case
<froud> redirect it to a file
<froud> xmllint --noout --xinclude --noent --postvalid C/internet/internet.xml > temp.xml
<mdke> ok
<froud> But this give validty warnings
<froud> they look like xrefs between the documents
<mdke> that's ok, there are some minor issues with xrefs
<froud> ok sec I just want to comment all of them for this doc on my sys
<mdke> that breaks xmllint?
<mdke> use add-applications.xml
<mdke> there is only one error there
<mdke> the output of that xmllint command is zero though
<mdke> matt@kalliope:~/ubuntu/ubuntu-doc/trunk/ubuntu/C/add-applications$ xmllint --noout --xinclude --noent --postvalid add-applications.xml
<mdke> matt@kalliope:~/ubuntu/ubuntu-doc/trunk/ubuntu/C/add-applications$
* mdke gets rid of the --noout bit
<mdke> ok, the problem is still present in test.xml if I use that
<froud> mdke: the problem is not shown here
<froud> pasting
<froud> <application xmlns:xi="http://www.w3.org/2001/XInclude">Firefox</application> can be launched by clicking
<froud> <menuchoice xmlns:xi="http://www.w3.org/2001/XInclude">
<froud>     <guimenu xmlns:xi="http://www.w3.org/2001/XInclude">Applications</guimenu>
<froud>     <guisubmenu xmlns:xi="http://www.w3.org/2001/XInclude">Internet</guisubmenu>
<froud>     <guimenuitem xmlns:xi="http://www.w3.org/2001/XInclude">Firefox Web Browser</guimenuitem>
<froud> </menuchoice>.</para>
<froud> As you can see no whitespace
<froud> So this could be a yelp issue
<froud> or xsltproc
<mdke> are you sure that is from an instance where the entity is being used?
<froud> mdke how you generating the help.u
<mdke> here is one of mine:
<mdke>     <guimenu xmlns:xi="http://www.w3.org/2001/XInclude">System</guimenu>
<mdke>     <guimenuitem xmlns:xi="http://www.w3.org/2001/XInclude">Administration</guimenuitem>
<mdke>     <guimenuitem xmlns:xi="http://www.w3.org/2001/XInclude">Synaptic Package Manager</guimenuitem>
<mdke> </menuchoice>
<mdke> ..
<mdke> new line between </menuchoice> and the period
<froud> sec
<froud> My line in src <application>Firefox</application> can be launched by clicking &firefox;.</para>
<mdke> what file?
<froud> http://pastebin.ca/307891
<mdke> i still get the bug
<mdke> http://pastebin.ca/307893
<mdke> do we have different versions of xml2?
<mdke> ii  libxml2                              2.6.27.dfsg-1ubuntu1                 GNOME XML library
<mdke> ii  libxml2-utils                        2.6.27.dfsg-1ubuntu1                 XML utilities
<froud> sec
<froud> I see the problem is the extra line
* froud just makes a new pastbin
<mdke> yes
<mdke> it's the newline before the period
<froud> http://pastebin.ca/307896
<froud> c line 25
<froud> when I remove that line. ie del the last cr I get no space in output of xmllint
<mdke> but I don't see such a line
<froud> when I add it I get it
<mdke> we're back to the beginning :(
<froud> Yah but we know what causes it
<mdke> if I open firefox.xml in vi, there is no extra line
<mdke> so something is inserting the extra line along the way
<froud> try do a delete after closing element
<mdke> maybe it's a problem with the way the entity is declared?
<mdke> the last character I have in that file with vi is >
<froud> no if there was a decl problem you would see null in the output
<froud> mdke: use cat -A -E menus/C/firefox.xml
<froud> mdke: if you see a $ at end then you know there is an eol character in the file
<froud> http://pastebin.ca/307912
<froud> mdke: if you dont then there is no eol
<froud> http://pastebin.ca/307913
<mdke> froud: yes, I get that. Any idea how to get rid of that?
<froud> I am looking for a way to automate it
<mdke> we need to get rid of the one after the xml declaration too, that causes an unwanted whitespace before the text, according to mpt
<mdke> but really, I don't think it should be having the effect that it does.
<froud> mdke: script the following
<froud> #! /bin/bash
<froud> files=`ls *.xml`
<froud> echo $files
<froud> for i in tr -d '\n \f' < $files ;done
<froud> this will give you
<froud> <?xmlversion="1.0"encoding="UTF-8"?><menuchoice><guimenu>Applications</guimenu><guisubmenu>Internet</guisubmenu><guimenuitem>FirefoxWebBrowser</guimenuitem></menuchoice>
<gump11> join #ubuntu-kernel
<froud> mdke: https://launchpad.net/ubuntu-doc/+bug/78135
<Ubugtu> Malone bug 78135 in ubuntu-doc "All entities have unwanted space before and after them" [Undecided,In progress] 
<froud> that script I pasted was wrong
<froud> mdke: it should be
<froud> #! /bin/bash
<froud> files=`ls *.xml`
<froud> echo $files
<froud> for i in $files; do tr -d '\n \f' < $files ;done
* froud hopes this helps
<jeffsch> froud: maybe the xslt normalize-space() function will work.
<jeffsch> froud: it means customizing the xslt though
<jeffsch> but may be a cleaner solution (if it works) in the long run
<mdke> froud: thanks, did you post that to the bug already?
<mdke> jeffsch: perhaps you can post that too?
<jeffsch> mdke: ok, done.
<mdke> thanks!
<froud> jeffsch: the thing is you would have to add that function to Yelp
<mdke> we might be able to push it into Yelp, if it's a nice solution
<mdke> hi Zelut
<Zelut> mornin'
<mdke> Zelut: I wanted to have a quick chat about the question of contributing directly to Ubuntu documentation
<mdke> I noticed your blog post just now doesn't refer to the documentation at all, were you aware there is a dedicated documentation site, at https://help.ubuntu.com (and an anyone-can-edit wiki at https://help.ubuntu.com/community)
<Zelut> oops. I guess I considered the wiki & help the same.
<Zelut> I'll add it.
<Zelut> I am planning on reviewing any of my posts and double-checking the docs for where it could be added, its just been a busy last few weeks.
<mdke> the wiki is for the development community. there are no docs there
<mdke> thanks.
<mdke> The main thing I wanted to talk about is whether you would be interested in contributing some material directly to ubuntu documentation, and linking to it from your blog, instead of creating it on your blog. My last post on http://ubuntu-tutorials.com/2006/12/22/ubuntu-tutorials-giving-the-planet-a-spin/ tries to explain the reasons why
<mdke> I don't know whether you've seen that comment yet or not, I added it recently
<Zelut> so I guess I didn't understand the difference in wiki.ubuntu vs help.ubuntu
<mdke> ok, all clear now I hope on that score
<Zelut> I did see the comment and you definitely have a point.  Any post for another 4 days were all pre-written weeks ago so I'm letting those all run their course.
<mdke> oh wow, you are well organised
<Zelut> but I think I could start writing mainly on the docs after that
<mdke> Zelut: I should probably apologise for the manner in which I pursue this question: I have a fervent zealot-like passion for trying to get collaboration going and avoiding reinvention of wheels in free software communities.
<Zelut> I figured out the use of the timestamp feature in WordPress so I would dedicate a few hours and pre-write for the week :)
<mdke> I know it can sometimes sound a bit over the top
<mdke> but your blog is a cool tool for promotion, I wouldn't want you to stop using it to promote information, I just think the information is best created in our central resource and *then* promoted :)
<Zelut> you're right.
<mdke> yay.
<Zelut> do the docs pages use the same wiki syntax as the devel wiki?
<mdke> yes
<mdke> lots of the pages there need some serious love
<mdke> Zelut: if you ever need any info about how to participate or something isn't clear, please give me a shout, or someone else in here can help, like nixternal
<mdke> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/WikiGuide is probably the best starting place
<Zelut> I've done a bit of wiki work in the past.. probably just have to review the syntax.
<mdke> that would be very cool. And your blog would be a great way to promote the documentation wiki...
<mdke> as you yourself prove, it's not too well understood
<mdke> which is our fault
<Zelut> is there a doc team in launchpad I should apply to? ..I guess make things official :)
<mdke> there is a wikiteam
<mdke> the docteam we keep for something else (the system docs)
<Zelut> ok.  I am registered on the wiki team but haven't really been active for a long time.  last year it seemed fairly unorganized
<Zelut> mdke: lets see if we can redirect this traffic to the docs. http://my.statcounter.com/project/standard/stats.php?project_id=1751189&guest=1
<mdke> https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-wiki
<mdke> oh yeah, you're there
<mdke> Zelut: that would be simply awesome
<Zelut> mdke: I had to remove the Digg This button yesterday after getting front-paged for the third time in a month
<mdke> there are some organisational issues too, we need to work on things like https://wiki.ubuntu.com/HelpWikiQualityAssurance
<mdke> cool
<mdke> yes, it would be nice if the help site got some publicity like that
<mdke> plus of course, when material is tidied up, we can use it in the system docs
<Zelut> so, again, (and it might because its yet early in the morning), should I work on the wiki, the help or the /community section directly?
<mdke> Zelut: it's https://help.ubuntu.com/community.
<mdke> if you read http://www.mdke.org/?p=67 that should clarify the whole system
<Zelut> looking back at your wiki page I'm reminded how behind I am on my previous LaptopTesting & Wiki work.
<mdke> I haven't done a LaptopTesting page for feisty yet, I don't think
<Zelut> I think I've tested 6 laptops but never updated them for Edgy on the list.. /me has some work cut out for him.
<Zelut> I can't get Feisty to boot on any of my machines..
<mdke> now the compulsory phase has ended, I haven't got around to it
<Zelut> md5 looks ok, but it errors out
<mdke> it has some known problems with certain hard disks last I heard
<mdke> not sure though, they should be fixed by now
<Zelut> I've got a few more machines I could try it on.. didn't work on the first two
<mdke> try a daily maybe
<Zelut> I'm trying to figure out a way to organize my time.  I'm sure redirecting my efforts to the docs will quickly turn into revising the poorly written ones, on top of the LoCo work
<Zelut> why is there never enough time? :)
<mdke> yeah, the classic problem
* Zelut seriously considers hiring an assistant lol
<mdke> heh
<Zelut> well I'll write up a game plan and get started.  any doc-team meets I should be aware of?
<mdke> Zelut: not at the moment, but you can inspire some :) Also, the mailing list is a good place to ask questions, make suggestions etc
<mdke> I'm really happy that you're interested
* Zelut imagines the flood of emails after adding docs to the current locoteams, devel, marketing, ubuntu-utah and local LUGs :)
<froud> mdke: can I ask you a question?
<mdke> froud: you just did
<mdke> go ahead
<mdke> Zelut: you need to match this many mailing lists: http://mdke.org/tmp/list.png
<mdke> I bet others have loads more besides
<Zelut> it'd probably help if I'd organize them the way you have.
<Zelut> I think *you* need an assistant :)
<mdke> do you use procmail?
<mdke> it's great
<Zelut> i don't think I have
<mdke> froud: what was the question?
<froud> mdke: how are you currently building and packing kubuntu docs
<mdke> froud: well, using xsltproc with a slightly refined kde xslt, and then using the regular debian packaging tools
<froud> mdke: there may be an easier way, same as upstream
<froud> meinproc
<mdke> froud: we moved away from it in order to keep the toolset close to ubuntu-docs
<mdke> the mailing list archive should have some discussions on that
<froud> OK, just meinproc adds the header footer kde for free
<froud> But no problem
<froud> if it works dont fix it
<mdke> yeah, we tried it for a while
<froud> OK
<mdke> I think it would be nice to add a kubuntu flavour footer actually
<mdke> but right now we use the regular KDE header/footer
<mdke> anyhow, I need to do some ironing, back later :)
<jeffsch> froud: you are right, as usual
<jeffsch> it looks like removing eol from each file is the best way
<jeffsch> normaliz-space function will be pita
<jeffsch> but is the <?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?> at the beginning of each file strictly necessary?
<jeffsch> for eg https://docteam.ubuntu.com/repos/trunk/ubuntu/menus/C/printing.xml
<jeffsch> removing the xml declaration and all leading whitespace will solve the problem of leading whitespace in the output
<jeffsch> it builds ok without the xml declaration
<somerville32> You know you ubuntu too much when you start dreaming about it, lol
<mdke> hi bhuvan
<somerville32> I had a dream I made a commit to the SVN before running the validation script, there was an error, and I got in trouble, lol
<bhuvan> hello mdke
<mdke> somerville32: !!
<mdke> bhuvan: I have started thinking about reorganising the server stuff a bit, what I'd like to do is to put it into a bit better categories instead of dividing into simply "networking" and "windows networking". The categories on https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Server might be a place to start. Are you interested in helping out?
<bhuvan> sure i can help
<bhuvan> so, do you mean we should do this categorisation in the same document?
<mdke> bhuvan: well, I've made a separate directory for it. But I'd like to just do a quick plan for the structure, e.g. on the wiki, before working on the document itself
<bhuvan> ok; i think thats a good plan. may be, i can modify https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerGuide for finalising our plan?
<mdke> bhuvan: sounds great to me.
<bhuvan> ok; i'll modify and post it to our list before we do the real work in our repos
<bhuvan> thanks for reminding me about this!
<mdke> bhuvan: thanks. We should also delete the chapters Preface, Introduction, Installating and Package Management (I've done this in my local copy already), because these things either aren't appropriate or are elsewhere in the system docs
<mdke> we can think about shipping a version of the complete guide in a separate package for server installations
<bhuvan> hmm ok
<bhuvan> i wouldn't mind removing those chapters, but i think it may make it incomplete or dependent on other documents for completeness (i may be wrong though)
<mdke> that's the whole point, it will be suplemented by the existing documents dealing with package management and so on.
<bhuvan> ok
<mdke> so in yelp there will be:
<mdke> Adding, Removing Applications
<mdke> [...]  (lower down)
<mdke> Running Server Applications
<bhuvan> yeah, that sounds fine
<bhuvan> so i think, we can remove those chapters any time even before we do the restructuring (if you already have one in local copy, please feel free to commit)
<mdke> alright, I'll commit it now
<bhuvan> thank you
<bhuvan> bedtimes
<mdke> good night :)
<bhuvan> good night
<froud> jeffsch: no the XML Declaration is not absolutely required in terms of proceeesing. However, some parsers will not know what to do and some editors will not know to save the file as UTF-8 if this is omitted.
<froud> I think with eol removed the whitespace before and after should be solved, no? At least that is what I am seeing here.
<froud> jeffsch: catch your answer later.
<jeffsch> there's still the CR after the <?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?>
<jeffsch> k
<froud> Hmm
<froud> I am not seeing it in output from xmllint
<froud> anyway, I dont think it will be critical if it is removed, it just wont be semantically correct
<froud> I is off to bobo land (sleeeep), later
<jeffsch> I am seeing it with xsltproc on printing.xml
<jeffsch> ok, 'night
#ubuntu-doc 2007-01-07
<J-_> What does it take to get on the doc team?
<mdke> J-_: a few patches :)
<mdke> J-_: see the link to my blog in the topic
<J-_> Cool, thanks.
<crimsun> mdke: see, the link pays off already
<mdke> crimsun: that's my second use :)
* mdke hi-fives crimsun 
<crimsun> :)
<somerville32> mdke: ping
<LaserJock> somerville32: he should be asleep
<LaserJock> will probably be up in 3 hrs or so
<somerville32> LaserJock: Do you know anyone else who is on the ubuntu website team?
<LaserJock> Corey is
<LaserJock> but he's not around
* somerville32 nods.
<somerville32> " 2005 Canonical Ltd. Ubuntu, Kubuntu, Edubuntu and Canonical are registered trademarks of Canonical Ltd."
<somerville32> Do you see whats wrong with that?
<somerville32> LaserJock, No mention of Xubuntu : (
<somerville32> Or wait a second
<somerville32> Maybe I'm wrong
<somerville32> What if Xubuntu isn't a registered trademark?
<LaserJock> that's entirely possible
<LaserJock> I don't know that Canonical "owns" Xubuntu that way
<somerville32> It is just like Kubuntu or Edubuntu, apparently
<LaserJock> I don't think so
<LaserJock> at least it wasn't
<LaserJock> could have changed though since I last heard
<somerville32> We're on a canonical server, canonical builds our ISOs, etc.
<LaserJock> but they don't sell support for it, that I know of
<LaserJock> and there isn't a paid dev
<somerville32> Do they sell support for Kubuntu?
<LaserJock> yep
<somerville32> Doh :(
<LaserJock> and edubuntu
* somerville32 is sad.
<LaserJock> well, it's just a matter of demand, etc.
<LaserJock> Xubuntu is the youngest of the four
<Jucato> I thought Xubuntu was also officially supported now?
<LaserJock> well, "officially supported" can mean a lot
<LaserJock> a lot of different things that is
<Jucato> by Canonical
<LaserJock> crimsun: do you happen to know ^^?
<LaserJock> yes, but what does "support" and "official" mean in this context?
<somerville32> We should lobby Canonical to start paying crimsun
<LaserJock> hehe, +1 for that
<crimsun> Xubuntu is supported by Canonical, yes.
<LaserJock> is "Xubuntu" trademarked by Canonical?
<LaserJock> that was our original question I guess ;-)
<crimsun> yes.
<somerville32> crimsun: Can we start lobbying Canonical to start paying you?
<crimsun> you may not on my behalf, no.
<somerville32> As a third party?
<LaserJock> somerville32: there's your answer, file a bug against ubuntu-website and see what happens
<crimsun> I'm technically disallowed from having any foreign contracts.
<somerville32> We could argue that Canonical is an international organization ;] 
<cellofellow> and Canonical is foreign?
<LaserJock> it's officially in Isle of Man, right?
<crimsun> it's not US-based, and that's the cruncher.
<somerville32> crimsun: Can I send you some small change?
<crimsun> no you may not.
<Laser_away> heh
<mdke> somerville32: http://err.no/personal/blog/2006/Oct/10#2006-10-10-12-05_contentless_pings
<mdke> I need to install that script...
<somerville32> :] 
<somerville32> But I'm here!
<somerville32> Wheres my pong?
<somerville32> I think pings are useful
<somerville32> For example
<somerville32> In this case, I pinged you to see if you were around
<somerville32> If you were, I would then have asked you about the copyright notice
<somerville32> However, if I had forgone the ping and just asked you the question and then went to someone else (such as corey) and got them to fix the issue, you might get confused when you go to fix the issue.
<somerville32> *you might have gotten when you went to fix the issue
<somerville32> lol
* mdke boggles
* somerville32 fails.
<mdke> did you file a bug or not?
<somerville32> mdke: Not yet
<somerville32> I've been busy working on an SRU
<somerville32> I'll file a bug in a second
<mdke> and we're sure Xubuntu is a registered trademark?
<somerville32> Crimsun says so
<somerville32> And it is on the xubuntu website as so
<somerville32> Which means Jonathon thinks so
<mdke> ok. Include that the copyright date is old too
<mdke> somerville32: and while we're on the subject of how to contact me, no need to cc me on mails going to mailing lists, if I post to a mailing list, I'll read the reply there
<somerville32> mdke: My client does it automatically
<mdke> somerville32: that's no excuse!
<somerville32> I mean... I guess I could remove you manually
<mdke> you could, or use reply to list
<somerville32> However, I thought people _liked_ it like that
<somerville32> Thats why the reply-to isn't set to the list or something
<mdke> some people do, but not me. And on Ubuntu lists, the policy is to avoid it
<mdke> (http://www.ubuntu.com/community/lists/etiquette)
* mdke works on installing this contentless ping script
<mdke> gimme a ping
<somerville32> mdke: ping
<mdke> anything happen?
<somerville32> nope
<somerville32> and I just read the etiquette thinger
<somerville32> and it says to use reply all
<mdke> you didn't read it very carefully!
<mdke> "When replying to messages, use your email client's Reply To List function, rather than "Reply" or "Reply To All"."
<mdke> I should know, I wrote it
<somerville32> @now atlantic
<Ubugtu> Current time in Canada/Atlantic: January 07 2007, 06:12:40
<mdke> wonder why the script doesn't work
<somerville32> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu-website/+bug/78285
<Ubugtu> Malone bug 78285 in ubuntu-website "Copyright notice requires update" [Undecided,Unconfirmed] 
<mdke> thanks
<froud> jeffsch: what' s the status of adept documentation upstream?
<mdke> froud: jjesse is trying to poke some documentation upstream at the moment
<froud> mdke: you mean I got the wrong person?
<mdke> froud: well, yeah, but I was hoping to answer your question too
<froud> mdke: you know if jjesse completed the document?
<mdke> froud: I believe he is still working on it, I saw some changes in our repo this week
<froud> mdke: I think if he has I can add it to kde bug and ask Riddle to apply it
<froud> mdke: OK, I just added Kompare docs today and already they have been improved so they may make 3.5.7
<mdke> ah
<froud> mdke: u now a regular on lug radio?
<mdke> ??
<mdke> froud: maybe you're thinking of matthew revell?
<froud> mdke: ah yes
<froud> sorry
<mdke> :)
<froud> abt time you became a feature there, no?
<mdke> froud: I think they all come from the same city, I haven't met em face to face. I was on it once though
<froud> mdke: I heard it yes
<froud> mdke: nice one
<mdke> heh
<froud> bonkers they are
<mdke> they are yeah
<mdke> good fun
<mdke> two of them working for Canonical now, I guess you know
<froud> yes, did you listen to the last show
<froud> yes
<mdke> I have to confess I don't listen to it regularly
<froud> catch the new years one
<mdke> will download it
<froud> they make the predictions for the next year
<froud> and look back on last years predictions
<mdke> I'll take a look. Should be a good year for free software, hopefully
<froud> mdke: you know I am now full time using Kubuntu
<froud> mdke: ditch the SuSE horse
<mdke> froud: was that for technical reasons or otherwise?
<froud> mdke: MS + Novell
<froud> Chicken marries the Fox and Fox moves into the hen house
<mdke> yeah
<mdke> unfortunate
<froud> Also I had several problems with ditro upgrades
<froud> mdke: did the solution posted to https://launchpad.net/ubuntu-doc/+bug/78135 work?
<Ubugtu> Malone bug 78135 in ubuntu-doc "All entities have unwanted space before and after them" [Undecided,In progress] 
<ryanakca> mdke: what's a new ubuntu doc?
<mdke> froud: haven't tried yet.
<mdke> ryanakca: I don't understand the question
<ryanakca> mdke: nevermind
* mdke shrugs
<ryanakca> I was looking for an example for gnomefreak... for the NUN meeting
<froud> mdke: k
<mdke> ryanakca: I don't know what a "new ubuntu doc" means... you mean something for contributing to ubuntu-doc?
<ryanakca> I was looking for a doc that had been recently written/published/etc
<mdke> hmm
<mpt> mdke, around?
<mdke> mpt: You sent me a contentless ping.  This is a contentless pong.  Please provide a bit of information about what you want and I will respond when I am around.
<mpt> :-X
<mpt> mdke, asquare?
<mpt> a-ha
<nixternal> lol
<nixternal> i see he got that script working
<mdke> mpt: ?
<mdke> mpt: I could have answered your question by now, if you'd asked it!! >_<
<somerville32> lol
* somerville32 giggles.
<mpt> mdke, I was wondering if the entity spacing problem could be solved by including all entities inline in gnome-menus-C.ent rather than in their own XML files
<mdke> mpt: yes, if they were all on one line, why not?
<mpt> (And, sorry, the verbosity of your contentless pong wound me up a little:-)
<mdke> mpt: it is the default text, I've now removed the second sentence
<mdke> maybe I should reword the first sentence too
<mpt> "" would be a good replacement for the first
* mdke hugs mpt
<mpt> hugs!!!
<mpt> We're the Ubuntu Documentation Team. Our mission is to have more hugs than the Ubuntu Desktop Team.
<mdke> surely impossible
<mdke> I wonder if you can have entities inside entities
<mdke> presumably yes
<mdke> so we can shorten the lines in gnome-menus-C.ent by defining the base menus already as their own entities
<mpt> <!ENTITY gnu '&gnu;'s Not Unix'>
<mdke> anyway, just fixing the bug would work for now
<mdke> lol
<mdke> that's rather clever
<mpt> hmm, 1.2 MB of hard disk space left
<mpt> that's a little low
<mdke> mpt: I'll have a go with your idea. it might be simpler than a script removing EOL all the time
<mpt> yes
<mpt> It would increase the probability of conflicts
<mpt> but keeping the entities in alphabetical order should keep that probability low.
<mpt> (where by "conflicts" I mean "VCS conflicts")
* mpt has experience of a similar nature in defining the titles of pages in Launchpad :-)
<mdke> COME BACK
<mdke> THAT'S AN ORDER
<LaserJock> heh
<mdke> anyway, it works
<mdke> mpt has a big brain
<somerville32> :)
<mdke> mpt: it works
<mdke> mpt: however... it will take a long time to move everything. Do you know any l33t coding skilz which might assist?
<mpt> mdke, it looks like a job for awk or perl
<mpt> (or python, of course)
<mdke> mpt: the end of lines and whitespaces between the tags need to be removed, as does "SYSTEM" in gnome-menus-C.ent
<mpt> I suggest posting to ubuntu-devel-discuss with exact requirements, including URLs to the relevant files, and asking for volunteers :-)
<mdke> I will ask the mighty dholbach
<mdke> if you're seriously suggesting that a man of your power can't do it
<mpt> the reason I say that is there are probably many people subscribed to ubuntu-devel-discuss who could come up with scripts (and check each other's code on the list), who don't otherwise have as much to do as the mighty dholbach
<LaserJock> what's wrong with the entities?
<mdke> mpt: alright, grumph
<mpt> LaserJock, they have unwanted space before and after, which is a problem when you want punctuation immediately before and/or after
<LaserJock> h I see
<LaserJock> *ah
<mdke> mpt: by the way, you me me eulogising your brain while you were out of the room, thanks for finding that fix
<mdke> you missed me*
<LaserJock> <mdke> mpt has a big brain
<mdke> quite
<mpt> It's a problem when I buy hats
<mpt> or bike helmets
<LaserJock> I bet
<mpt> but if it helps make Ubuntu Help look better, it's all worthwhile :-P
<mdke> mailed
<somerville32> I might be able to help
<mdke> somerville32: that would be cool
<nixternal> woohoo, got my grades today, and i qualified for advanced business law courses for the next module!!!
<nixternal> 4.0 for CIS, and 4.0 for MBA
<mdke> well done nixternal
<nixternal> i haven't gotten grades this good since kindergarten :)
<mdke> 4 is good in the US?
<nixternal> 4 out of 4
<nixternal> 4.0 = A, 3.0 = B and so on here
<mdke> why 4?
<mdke> (good job though)
<nixternal> because that is as high as they could probably count :)
<nixternal> how does your universities do it?
<LaserJock> yeah, thumbs for counting is no good ;-)
<mdke> out of 100
<mdke> but they do weird things too
<nixternal> ahh, they do the same here, 90-100 == 4.0, 80-89 == 3.0, and so on
<mdke> 70-100 is "First Class", 60-70 is "2:1", 50-60 is "2:2", etc
<nixternal> they take the overall percentage and turn it into a GPA
<nixternal> oh ya, first class, that's right
<LaserJock> nixternal: more like 90-100 == A == 4.0
<nixternal> my x-wife told me about all of that now that I remember
<nixternal> though i don't know how much longer she will be my x-wife ;)
<mdke> perhaps not so different then
<mdke> nixternal: you planning an assassination?
<nixternal> is that what you call marriage over there?
<nixternal> we have been reconciling over the years
<mdke> nope
<LaserJock> heh
<nixternal> plus she works for the gov't, so i don't get involved
<mdke> it was one of the two possibilities for you thinking she wouldn't be your ex-wife much longer
<nixternal> hehe
<mdke> I figured it was the less likely one, so made a joke about it
<nixternal> i just might look into persuing business law. i am so entrigued by it
<LaserJock> ug
<nixternal> hehe
<LaserJock> try science :-)
<mdke> law is good
<nixternal> law is very interesting to me, but not doing it on an "attorney" level
<nixternal> US Judges sicken me
<LaserJock> I think I would like studying law, just not being a lawyer :/
<mdke> being a lawyer is better
<LaserJock> nixternal: here in Reno we have the "National Judicial College"
<nixternal> exactly what i want to do. so when i start a new business i don't need full-time lawyers again
<mdke> I'll represent you when you get in trouble
<nixternal> can you believe my contract with the Chicago Cubs is coming to an end, and they are only giving me a weeks worth of box tickets
<LaserJock> :(
<nixternal> mdke: i will take you up on that when i go global
<nixternal> :)
<mdke> nixternal: I had my fingers crossed
<nixternal> hehe
<LaserJock> nixternal international, Inc. Ltd. blah blah blah
<mdke> nixternal: I keep em permanently crossed, it's a lawyer thing
<nixternal> my last company which I sold was an LLC
<LaserJock> ah, I like the sound of LLC
<nixternal> limited liability, can't beat it
<mdke> presumably, it means LTD
<LaserJock> Inc. always sounds like a cartoon or something
<nixternal> mdke: about the same yes
<mdke> nixternal: well, it is the same :)
<nixternal> actually, i believe now if you have an LLC you can do the Ltd
<nixternal> i did mine the smart way though, i put 96% of the shares in my x-wifes name, making it a woman owned organisation
<nixternal> means most of the big contracts were won by me
<mdke> omg
<mdke> shocking
<nixternal> s/big/bid
<LaserJock> hmm, I had a website building "business" for like a year when I was around 15
<nixternal> which allowed me to inflate proposed cost and time, and then come in under budget and in-time creates amazing word of mouth advertising
<nixternal> that's how i obtained a majority of my clients
<nixternal> LaserJock: haha i did the same
<nixternal> i had 2 clients, both neighbors
<LaserJock> I had probably 4 or 5
<nixternal> i ran the site on tripod at that
<LaserJock> golf course, ranch, etc.
<nixternal> i made around $1000 for both jobs
<LaserJock> I actually paid for a domain, etc.
<LaserJock> bah
<nixternal> i was to cheap, then domains cost $100/yr
<LaserJock> I probably charged $100-$200
<LaserJock> but I had a hard time billing people
<LaserJock> I'm soooo not meant for business
<nixternal> i miss having my own business, but i had no choice but to sell. i couldn't keep up with the compeitions cost, even though they were overselling
<nixternal> which a majority of them do to this day
<dsas> overselling is not inherently evil though. as long as it's managed properly it's not a problem.
<nixternal> dsas: true, but it tends to get out of hand the more clients you establish
<mdke> mpt: already got a script
<nixternal> i provided t-1 through oc3 connections on demand, web hosting (all sorts), as well as business network modeling
<dsas> possibly, that falls under "not managed properly" in my book
<nixternal> all was fine except for the t-1 through oc-3 connections and the web hosting
<dsas> you have to oversell to compete in web hosting..
<nixternal> ya, and i didn't want to do it and have the worries
<nixternal> i have kept most of my business clients though and still maintain their networks, which a majority are SAP/ERP and Automations type systems
<nixternal> dsl has killed the t-1 on up market in the chicago land area
<dsas> sounds interesting, they were just kicking off a SAP project at my work placement as I left..
<nixternal> SAP is pretty neat once the whole system is combined
<dsas> it sounded interesting, but seemed like it'd probably be a big, long project.
<mpt> mdke, cool, does it work? :-)
<nixternal> ya, they usually are. and tend to create more head aches the first 6 months after implementation as well
<mdke> mpt: yes, uploaded already
<mdke> that's pretty damn cool
<mpt> committed the results, you mean?
<mdke> yes
<mpt> awesome
<mdke> mpt: http://warma.dk/magic.py-source
<LaserJock> ah, did Soren write one for you?
<mdke> yes
<LaserJock> that was fast
<mdke> 5 minutes, give or take
<mdke> ;)
<nixternal> mdke: do i need to the same for kubuntu docs? and if so, how do you run the app?
<mdke> hmm. I would have thought they'll have the bug too, good point
#ubuntu-doc 2007-12-31
<orapronobis> hello there, plese note that the page https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MacBookPro promotes illegal activities which are also oppose to the free software philosophy: Download 'Activation Crack' from eMule;
 * emmajane waves
 * mpt waves back
<mpt> Ms Hogbin, I presume
<emmajane> indeed :)
<emmajane> And how are you this fine *insert correct time of day*
<mpt> I'm hungry
<emmajane> awww
<emmajane> no food in the house?
<mpt> Food in the house, but I'm at the office :-)
<mpt> I should go home
<emmajane> office?!
<emmajane> what time of day is it there?
<mpt> but no Internet at home, hence the quandary
<mpt> 9.52pm
<emmajane> No internet?!
<emmajane> what kind of crazy world do you live in? :)
<mpt> No hot water, either
<mpt> But that's another story
<emmajane> omg
<mpt> Pleased to meet you, and see you again next year :-)
<emmajane> Indeed. :)
<emmajane> and likewise!
#ubuntu-doc 2008-01-01
<mdke> happy new year all
<kgoetz> happy new year
<MenZa> I'm assuming you guys are the most skilled in using the Wiki, so I'd like to ask, how does one upload attachments?
<kgoetz> MenZa: 'more action's -> 'attachments'
<MenZa> Thanks, kgoetz :)
<kgoetz> np :)
#ubuntu-doc 2008-01-02
<flaccid> a loto f the doco on the wiki etc. seems outdated because of gutsy, is there any plan to update it?
<kgoetz> it gets updated when people edit it
<flaccid> the the doc team do that?
<flaccid> i mean do the doc team do that?
<robotgeek> flaccid: the docteam can only do so much, you don't need to be part of the doc team to do that.
<kgoetz> not specifically. anyone who can edit th ewiki does
<kgoetz> *the wiki
<robotgeek> kgoetz: hello. and a happy new year
<flaccid> what do the doc team do then?
<kgoetz> robotgeek: happy new year, and if you celebrate it, i hope you had an enjoyable xmas
<kgoetz> flaccid: write most of the docs in desktop -> help
<kgoetz> maintain help.ubuntu.com
<kgoetz> etc
<robotgeek> cleanup the wiki and so on too
<robotgeek> kgoetz: thanks. and i hope you had a good xmas too
<flaccid> it seems all over the place
<flaccid> and a lot of duplication
<kgoetz> robotgeek: i did, thank you.
<flaccid> how do you get to desktop  -> help?
 * kgoetz has a "Desktop" menu (next to apps+places). perhaps its called something different in ubuntu?
<flaccid> im on kubuntu
<kgoetz> ah right. then its somewhere else again *looks at robotgeek *?
<flaccid> there doesn't seem to be a dedicated kubuntu-doc project to make kubuntu specific doc so users don't have to go through gnome stuff
<robotgeek> damn, i use kubuntu too :)
<kgoetz> ;)
<robotgeek> flaccid: K-Menu-> Help
<robotgeek> flaccid: having separate kubuntu docs would lead to more duplication, and a pain to manage. the docteam is usually short staffed.
 * robotgeek has been guilty of not putting in any work for the last year
<flaccid> the problem is nobody goes to kmenu -> help or use it and we can't pass weblinks to people in #kubuntu to ref it
<flaccid> and yeah its yet another source of different documentation
<flaccid> its not really accessible by normal users to search and find the actual help they need
<jjesse> kubuntu docs are done right now by nixternal and myself
<jjesse> as part of ubuntu0doc team
<flaccid> yeah and i don't know of anybody that uses these docs or knows about em..
<kgoetz> wasnt help.u.c going to be html generated from the docbook?
<flaccid> the TOC is pretty wile in kde help center..
<flaccid> wild i mean
<jjesse> kgoetz: i thought at one time it should be
<jjesse> flaccid: nixternal did the table of contents
<flaccid> i think you guys could be working on something that nobody uses
<kgoetz> the ubuntu docs setup isnt perfect, i'm just not sure i understand it well enough to offer improvements :/
<flaccid> it doesn't extend to helping on irc thats for sure
<kgoetz> flaccid: you'd be wrong ;) people do use it, perhaps not as much as they should do, but its used
<nixternal> flaccid: plenty of people use it, the TOC on the left hand side is not Kubuntu's doing
<flaccid> kgoetz: i offered some but the team/nixternal just wanted it to stay the same
<nixternal> what do you want to change?
<nixternal> or where do you want to help? right now there is just myself and jjesse, one thing I would never do is turn away help, especially with kubuntu-docs
<flaccid> 1 documentation source, no duplication or redundancy, semantic and easy to use TOC, able to be referenced with URI etc.
<nixternal> flaccid: go upstream with that
<nixternal> plus that will eventually change with KDE 4 anyways
<flaccid> i already did with you on the mailing list months ago :)
<nixternal> hrmm, I don't remember
<flaccid> hmm ok, change of attitude now thats a good thing :)
<flaccid> but seriously, ubuntu doc needs to unify and be accessible. kinfocenter and help.kubuntu.com should be a definitive guide
<posingaspopular> well gl convincing everyone else of that flaccid ;p
<nixternal> ubuntu doc or kubuntu doc?
<kgoetz> lol
<flaccid> i tried this months agon on the list
<flaccid> nixternal: um im not sure which one to be honest
<nixternal> ooh, robotgeek is around
<nixternal> well kubuntu-docs is unified to kubuntu and kde
<flaccid> i mainly suggest a handbook or manual that is definitive
<posingaspopular> even convincing nixternal's hard headed self is hard enough
<nixternal> we will have our docs on the new kubuntu website as well once that comes up
<flaccid> new kubuntu website?
<robotgeek> hey nixternal, it has been a while.
<posingaspopular> afk
<nixternal> flaccid: you are free to write a handbook, but gnome, kde, ubuntu, kubuntu and the list goes on, is moving away from handbooks and going with topic based help
<nixternal> re: project mallard
<nixternal> part of the freedesktop.org standardization process
<flaccid> thats where the problem lies nixternal
<flaccid> a handbook is topic based help anyway
<nixternal> not necessarily
<nixternal> top based help as in "how do I blow up this pc?"
<jjesse> different beasts :)
<flaccid> it shouldnt be a case of 'this is the topic i should look up and research' it should be 'this is what i need to do, there is a procedure for it and its in the relevant chapter or category of the handbook'
<jjesse> dang it to push local commits of my branch up to launchpad is that bzr push?
<flaccid> an open UoD of topics does not define a scope for the support
<nixternal> jjesse: yes
<robotgeek> flaccid: the topic based help in Kubuntu does exactly what you say it does?
<flaccid> don't we want to like make generic topics in a TOC for an operating system. its abstracted. eg. Video not BinartyDriverHowTo
<nixternal> for the wiki?
<flaccid> robotgeek: i can't really navigate it use it or understand it
<flaccid> we need to not think in terms of where the doco is but bring it all together. i have to reference the wiki to help people do not only problems but basic tasks
<nixternal> flaccid: that is exactly how kubuntu docs TOC is
<nixternal> if you have kubuntu docs installed, open up konqueror and type in the url ->  help:/kubuntu
<flaccid> but i can't use it or reference it and it doesn't have all the information from the wiki and help sites and i still don't actually know myself the difference between these and why there are two. why is there wiki, help, then help in kde plus because of the different DEs..
<flaccid> nixternal: it returns  There is no documentation available for /kubuntu.
<nixternal> flaccid: there is information on the wiki that a) doesn't pertain to kubuntu docs, or b) doesn't belong in system documentation
<nixternal> wiki for one is community documentation
<flaccid> pertain
<nixternal> any and everyone is free to put pretty much anything pertaining to *buntu in there
<flaccid> and its a bit crazy that we have to reference community documentation thats edited by anyone and could be inaccurate
<nixternal> whereas the system docs document pretty much a stock system, with a little help here and there to do some of the more common things (ie. firefox, compiz)
<flaccid> i thought the ubuntu doc team would unify the documentation and make a definitive guide like the freebsd handbook
<flaccid> like a car an operating system needs a proper manual
<nixternal> we have been working on that, but seeing as there are typically no more than 5 active people, that is a tad bit difficult to do
<nixternal> plus the freebsd handbook is what, 20 years old now
<nixternal> *buntu docs are 3
<nixternal> , 4
<nixternal> no, 3 :)
<kgoetz> when the FBSD handbook was written, they were not doing major releases every 6 months
<nixternal> we just got into 08 :)
<kgoetz> afaik they still dont
<nixternal> kgoetz: not even close
<flaccid> nixternal: yeah and is still good, but the point is they use a relevant TOC. the kubntu TOC would be more simple for the more common end user, but the concept is the same.
<robotgeek> nixternal: i should be able to put in some more time this year into the docs. i think i made a good start :)
<nixternal> flaccid: are we referring to the same TOC for kubuntu?
<kgoetz> groggy knows obscenely large amounts too, so to sit down and write the first version of a reasonably stable system was just a thing of lots of words, not lots of changing words
<nixternal> robotgeek: groovy
<jjesse> flaccid: i disagree, i think the kubuntu docs are way better then any help system i've seen (SuSE, MS, Fedora)
<jjesse> yay for robotgeek
<flaccid> i can't even access the kubuntu docs, help:/ doesn't work on my gutsy
<nixternal> I knew it was only a matter of time before robotgeek came back to work :)
<robotgeek> flaccid: do you have the kubuntu-docs package installed?
<nixternal> flaccid: then you don't have kubuntu-docs installed if help:/kubuntu doesn't work
<flaccid> the TOC is not an operating system TOC
<flaccid> its an optional package?
<nixternal> flaccid: you aren't looking at the right stuff for one
<posingaspopular> so all the big hitters in the doc world are in the chan today jjesse?
<kgoetz> should it be / or // ?
<nixternal> flaccid: if you installed kubuntu, then it comes with kubuntu
<nixternal> help:/kubuntu
<jjesse> i think so posingaspopular
<nixternal> one / as help:/ is kio
<jjesse> posingaspopular: i see you are going up for ubuntu-membership?
<flaccid> nixternal: as i said, it returns There is no documentation available for /kubuntu.
<posingaspopular> yes sir. thoughts?
<nixternal> flaccid: then you need to install kubuntu-docs
<nixternal> sudo apt-get install kubuntu-docs
<robotgeek> nixternal: nope, i have it installed. it does not show up in konqueror :)
<nixternal> ey?
<flaccid> this is fresh gutsy install, are you sure its installed with gutsy
<nixternal> shows up for me
<jjesse> posingaspopular: i thought you were one already
<jjesse> nixternal: same for me
<robotgeek> help:/kubuntu/index/ works for me
<flaccid> does a meta package install that from the installer or something
<flaccid> actually its installed, but it doesn't work
<nixternal> help:/kubuntu/index.html is the exact location of the kubuntu toc
<jjesse> kubuntu-desktop
<flaccid>  There is no documentation available for /kubuntu/index.html.
<flaccid> omg another bug
<nixternal> it works on a gutsy live cd
<nixternal> it works for me and jjesse
<posingaspopular> nope that's my brother. but all the people who have promised me recommendations (hint: nixternal), haven't done it yet
<flaccid> the package is installed, why wouldn't it work if its not a bug
<robotgeek> well, i did upgrade from dapper
<jjesse> posingaspopular: i can't be at the meeting but i would vouch for you
<jjesse> we met last time i was in chicago diddn't we?
<nixternal> yup
<nixternal> he was the dork with the skateboard
<nixternal> :p
<posingaspopular> yup.
<jjesse> man i gotta get back to chi town again
<flaccid> nixternal: um so if it doesn't work for me, i wonder how many other people can't access it. still i have never seen a help:/ reference in #kubuntu
<jjesse> flaccid: are you sure it isn't your system?  robotgeek, nixternal and i all can access help that way
<nixternal> flaccid: I would say not that many, as nobody has filed a bug on that as of this time, however many people have filed bugs on typos
<flaccid> nixternal: i think i might have to make this handbook to show you what i mean. it will take time but then you can implement it
<robotgeek> jjesse: no, help:/kubuntu does not work for me
<flaccid> jjesse: dpkg says its installed
<jjesse> robotgeek: sorry thoguht i read it did
<nixternal> are you sure you are using gutsy?
<flaccid> its not a typo
<posingaspopular> making the big bucks off my city jjesse?
<flaccid> Release:        7.10
<flaccid> Codename:       gutsy
<jjesse> posingaspopular; hopefully
<flaccid> im a regular helper, im hope im not that braindead
<nixternal> help:/amarok
<nixternal> does that work for you?
<robotgeek> flaccid: help:/kubuntu/index/ try that too :)
<robotgeek> maybe we can file a bug :)
<flaccid> amarok works
<robotgeek> amarok works for me too
<flaccid> and so does help:/kubuntu/index/
<flaccid> but not help:/kubuntu/
<flaccid> or even help:/
<nixternal> http://www.nixternal.com/~rj/help.png
<nixternal> that is what you should see
<nixternal> I have a hard time believing that if you are using kubuntu gutsy, it is a fresh install of kubuntu gutsy...it works right from the gutsy live cd
<flaccid> yeah you know me im not a noob so its a fact lol
<robotgeek> nixternal: i removed it and reinstalled it, still does not work
<flaccid> i've double checked that im not drunk
<kgoetz> flaccid: *grin*
<nixternal> don't know what to say, it works fine from a live cd
<flaccid> nixternal: i have to go to help:/kubuntu/index/ to get that
<kgoetz> nixternal: you say 'thats odd, sounds like a bug to me'
<flaccid> no wonder i've never seen this nixternal
<kgoetz> wonder if its an upstream bug or a docs bug
<nixternal> flaccid: it is in the top of KHelpCenter under the Kubuntu Documentation link
<flaccid> help:/kubuntu/basic-concepts/restart-x.html <-- bad practice dang
<nixternal> kgoetz: that would be kubuntu-docs
<nixternal> can you tell me why that is bad practice?
<flaccid> nix that link takes me to help://kubuntu/index/ hmm
<flaccid> wouldn't it be better to log out of X instead of kill it
<nixternal> flaccid: notice it says "Restart Kubuntu w/o rebooting", not "Log out of Kubuntu"
<flaccid> and they might still need to restart X server from kdm
<flaccid> it should be titled kill kde/X
<flaccid> goto kmenu and logout is much more graceful and ensures that your apps save their stuff on sighup
<nixternal> ctrl+alt+backspace has been the recommended way of restarting X since 1984
<kgoetz> brb. work
<nixternal> flaccid: I can agree that a title change could work
<flaccid> its not 1984 anymore
<kgoetz> flaccid: but x works he same
<nixternal> ya, but the functionality of X is still 1984
<flaccid> i have people complain that configs were not saved because ther application was sent a kill signal and not sighup so they log in again and have to config the app again. no wonder ctrl+alt+backspace is fast
<flaccid> not really kde was not on X in not 1984 running apps over the top
<nixternal> OK, then 1996
<nixternal> or 1997 if you use Gnome
<flaccid> do you get what i mean by kill yeah
<flaccid> the didn't make the logout button a shortcut to ctrl+alt+backspace
<nixternal> because logout and restart x are 2 totally different things
<nixternal> just like the power button and the reset button are 2 totally different things
<flaccid> yes but you should logout first then restart X
<nixternal> what if you can't?
<flaccid> not kill X and restart it and send kill to all your apps
<flaccid> then you fallback to ctrl+alt+backspace. you kill an app when its not responsive, not when its responding
<flaccid> app=process
<robotgeek> hah, help:/kubuntu/config-desktop/tips.html is more complete
<flaccid> hmmm. tips pretty ambiguous
<nixternal> robotgeek: hrmm, maybe we should just create a link to that section?
<flaccid> nixternal: i will write this handbook and present to you within a few months
<nixternal> flaccid: I have a better idea, why recreate the wheel when you help improve what we already have
<kgoetz> how long until docs string freeze? i'd like to read through ubuntu/kubuntu/edubuntu docs and offer feedback before freeze happens. (if i can work it all out *grin*)
<flaccid> because its not the same thing, its a dif TOC
<nixternal> I can tell you right now, with a fair amount of certainty, that Kubuntu will not go back to a handbook...plus, writing docs for KDE 3 is pretty useless right now as well
<robotgeek> nixternal: yup.
<nixternal> 2 months
 * robotgeek checks for bzr tutorials
<nixternal> less than 2 months actually
<flaccid> i will write it and then put it up on a website like the freebsd handbook under GPL then you can work out what you want to do with it because i know you probably won't wanna just implement it as is in info center, well maybe you will..
<nixternal> we are coming up on gui freeze soon
 * MenZa lurks.
<jjesse> hello MenZa
<MenZa> hihi
<flaccid> um its an OS manual, not just the DE, you will see what i mean, the kde3 to 4 want matter and make that much extra work
<kgoetz> ubuntu docs are all CC i thought, no GPL at all
<nixternal> flaccid: doesn't matter what I want, I am nothing more than a poor soul who does what he is told
<flaccid> yeah, i just want to unify this stuff, but i know that if i collab with someone else or whatever the objective won't be reach. the result won't be what is required
<nixternal> flaccid: and if you do reinvent the wheel, you have to insure your TOC meets "usability standards" set forth by KDE, Ubuntu/Kubuntu, and Freedesktop.org
<flaccid>  yeah thats fine
<nixternal> http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4216011961522818645
<nixternal> that is a great video
<flaccid> im a web standards developer so im up on the semantics, useability and accessibility etc.
<flaccid> as you can tell im a really fussy/standards type guy. im also a good copy-write despite my lack of grammar on irc
<flaccid> anyway i'll get back to you in future nixternal. i'll just do this thing gpl, but the aim would be that once its in handbook or whatever we reference the help:/ URIs
<nixternal> remember, you can't use documentation for the wiki and then gpl it
<nixternal> s/for/from
<nixternal> our documentation is cc-by-sa (yes, I hate the fact we use that crappy license)
<flaccid> i help in #kubuntu for hours everyday so i know what the issues are with stuff
 * kgoetz wonders how he's buggarised his bzr checkouts
<flaccid> i'll be making my own website that uses not a wiki but a system like the freebsd handbook. i'll release this book under GPL or something so that ubuntu team can use it
<kgoetz> flaccid: nixternal 's poitn is they cant use gpl doco
<flaccid> what do you mean
<flaccid> i can't write doco that is gpl?
<nixternal> ya, we aren't cool like gNewsense :p
<kgoetz> they can only use CC-BY-SA
<nixternal> you can write it, we can't use it
<flaccid> serious
<kgoetz> nixternal: :p we dont have doco :S
<flaccid> why is that
<nixternal> kgoetz: but you have RMS!
<jjesse> ubuntu-docs is licensed by cc=by-sa
<jjesse> along with th official ubuntu book
<nixternal> flaccid: cuz someone decided to go with cc-by-sa (ie. sabdfl and the rest of the community council)
<kgoetz> nixternal: yes, there is that
<flaccid> so like what is the cc by sa license
<nixternal> a license that won't hold water in a court of law
<jjesse> seriouslly there is going to be another rambo movie?
<nixternal> hehe
<nixternal> jjesse: yes
<flaccid> i don't get the point of the license
<nixternal> you just now heard about that?
<nixternal> Sly announced that during the first or second season of the Contender
<robotgeek> these license issues have been bugging us for a while. damn.
<nixternal> err, I am sorry, I am thinking about something else jjesse
<flaccid> i dont know. like so if i release this book in GPL you guys can't reproduce the content. isn't that ubuntu kicking themselves?
<nixternal> robotgeek: ya, we can't even share doco with upstream because of it
<nixternal> flaccid: no we can't use it, and yes they are kicking themselves :)
<flaccid> ok dang!!!!!
<flaccid> hmm, i could take over the ubuntu doc preferred resource all by myself.
<nixternal> alrighty then
<nixternal> time to roll out
<kgoetz> Hobbsee: :)
<Hobbsee> heya
<robotgeek> nixternal: later
<kgoetz> hey :)
<nixternal> later
<robotgeek> howdy Hobbsee
<jjesse> night all
<Hobbsee> robotgeek!
<kgoetz> hehe. hes got a lot of that today
<robotgeek> i gotta be off too. damn, it all started off with cleaning my apartment, ended up taking my computer apart, and writing an article.
<flaccid> hey nixternal, do you know if a lot of these gui kde frontend bugs and admin mode and so forth where its greyed out or doesn't load or whater - is it kubuntu or kde's bug?
<robotgeek> flaccid: all bugs are kubuntu bugs :)
<kgoetz> even the ones in gnome ;)
<robotgeek> lol
<flaccid> roflmao
<kgoetz> *grin*
<flaccid> this is why i prefer freebsd-kde
<robotgeek> i'm off guys, later
<kgoetz> later maet
<kgoetz> *mate
 * kgoetz wonders if theres a convenient way to read the docs, or just yelptest
<mdke> morning all
<flaccid> hey guys, we were talking about latex before. i've only ever touched it briefly, how can i get started. install a latex 'suite' of tools or something
<flaccid> oh and excuse the puns in there,not intentional..
<posingaspopular> flaccid: sudo apt-get install lyx
<flaccid> danke
<posingaspopular> np
<flaccid> oh i should press enter, sweet lol
<flaccid> installing now hehe
<posingaspopular> ... the terminal was just sitting there?
<posingaspopular> well you know what they say about 90% of computer errors ;p
<flaccid> yeah my yakuake, i've been drinking tonight
<flaccid> i kind of forgot about it for a second hehe
<posingaspopular> ah yakuake is different though
<flaccid> more like an hour
<posingaspopular> it disappears
<flaccid> ah but im dual displaying
<flaccid> too lazy to look on the notebook lol
<posingaspopular> ah ive been tricked again!
<flaccid> rofl
<flaccid> yes by a drunk
<Kamping_Kaiser> is latex on topic here? i thought it was only docbook for ubuntu docs
<flaccid> Kamping_Kaiser: are you going to spank me as a result?
<Kamping_Kaiser> flaccid, nah, i'd have to get up for my whip :p
<flaccid> oh dang!
<posingaspopular> Kamping_Kaiser: is backtalk on topic here? ;p
<flaccid> but more accurately, what is the actual topic
<flaccid> and how does it breach
<Kamping_Kaiser> posingaspopular, actually, i was wnodering if i should be !coc ing myself
<Kamping_Kaiser> mdke, btw, should the /topic talk about svn or bzr?
<flaccid> considering the other formats of ubuntu doc and licensing i think it doesn't really matter lol
<posingaspopular> well i don't think you said anything that o4o doesnt
<flaccid> who is that
<posingaspopular> !o4o flaccid
<ubotu> Sorry, I don't know anything about o4o flaccid - try searching on http://ubotu.ubuntu-nl.org/factoids.cgi
<posingaspopular> @lart flaccid
<flaccid> dang
<posingaspopular> something like that... i see it in the -offtopic all the time
<Kamping_Kaiser> !o4o | posingaspopular
<ubotu> posingaspopular: Some things are inappropriate for #ubuntu-doc. Controversial topics, which always turn into flamewars: war, race, religion, politics (unless related to software licencing), gender, sexuality, drugs, questionable legal activities, removing of oneself from the planet (except by space or time travel) are not for here, perhaps #off-topic or ##politics. Microsoft software in ##windows (Please note Freenode Policy) - Thanks.
<Kamping_Kaiser> ;)
<flaccid> oh how trivial
<Kamping_Kaiser> and @lart is only enabled in -ops and -offtopic iirc
<flaccid> probably better to worry about the docs than than irc
<ifireball> what is freenode policy regarding ##windows I wonder...
<Kamping_Kaiser> what about it?
<ifireball> nothing, just that it was mentioned by the bot, and I needed to type something else then about ENV for a bit
 * Kamping_Kaiser blinks
<ifireball> oh don't mind me
<ifireball> is it ok to derive wiki pages from manpages?
<flaccid> ok by who?
<ifireball> I.e. licence-wise, etc.
<flaccid> we are not laywers unfortunately
<flaccid> someone might be able to comment but
<ifireball> I thought there might be a policy about that
<flaccid> i can't comment sorry. someone might be able to
<flaccid> why are ubuntu people so closed minded
<flaccid> i just got kicked from the ops chan for voicing the fact that on topic and off topic are not clearly defined
<flaccid> which is true
<ifireball> may you have not been very polite about that?
<flaccid> im polite, but they cannot open their mind to realise that they have not defined it corrrectly
<flaccid> this is science you know
<posingaspopular> well i duno about the -doc chan. being helpful here flaccid but i think there is a list for community and/or loco talk, if the -ops chan isn't helpful
<posingaspopular> but i have to go work... so adios and good luck with your hacking everyone
<flaccid> im sick of attitude ops and closed mindedmness in the ubuntu community
<flaccid> so i might as well compete and screw them.
<flaccid> ubuntu the way its going will be overtaken by a distro that has better organisation, goals and people. so far i've only come across closed-minded people in powers of position that have no idea.
<flaccid> i've only wanted to help, have given a lot
<flaccid> but only get ops that do nothing to help users bag me out
<flaccid> im not sure what kind of community thats meant to be
<flaccid> so i give up
<ifireball> personally I found #ubuntu to be terribly helpful though a tad too focused on new users so I have no idea what your problem is
<flaccid> well i already said what it was above..
<flaccid> in this case, its #kubuntu
<ifireball> what the problem with it?
<flaccid> people
<ifireball> I give up
<flaccid> me too
<flaccid> ined
<flaccid> oh please
<flaccid> you guys have no brains
<fildo> ahha
<fildo> not nice
<ifireball> well, he's been ranting for hours
<ifireball> need help proofreading: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/EnvironmentVariables
<ifireball> where is the mailing list btw?
<astabeno> Greetings
<ubotu> New bug: #148954 in scrollkeeper (main) "package scrollkeeper 0.3.14-13ubuntu2 failed to install/upgrade: subprocess post-installation script killed by signal (Interrupt) (dup-of: 146832)" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/148954
<`Matir> somerville32, I was told to contact you Re: the Ubuntu Server guide
<nivek> Is anyone else having problems reaching help.ubuntu.com?
<seisen> works fine for me
<nivek> Hmm
<nivek> Now it works fine.
<nivek> Strange.
<`Matir> i was having issues with it earlier
<nivek> Hmm, can anyone give me a synonymical phrase for "For example".
<ifireball> I find that is sometimes responds very slowly for me, then again it could be just my ISP
<ifireball> "for instance"
<nivek> Got that one :D
<somerville32> `Matir, To contact me or sommer?
<`Matir> somerville32, Jonathan Jesse said you... was that incorrect?
<jjesse> somerville32: is it you working on the serverguide?
 * jjesse couldn't remember
<somerville32> I'm pretty sure sommer is the mover and shaker there :)
<jjesse> dang it got you two confused
<jjesse> sorry bout that
<sommer> hey all
<sommer> `Matir: did you have a question about the server guide?
<`Matir> sommer, I was just looking at getting into doing some doc work for ubuntu and jjesse suggested you might be able to use some help
<jjesse> hello sommer
<jjesse> sorry about getting you confused :0
<sommer> jjesse: sup, np
<jjesse> sommer: just busy werking
<somerville32> jjesse, It is okay. sommer doesn't mind because I'm such a good looking dude ;]
<sommer> `Matir: sure you can find links to what we're focusing on here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/Roadmap#head-10d4dc30a6d3b02c5ae5948aee77a9f7a0295931
<sommer> heh... everyone looks good in text mode :)
<sommer> `Matir: not sure if you've checked out the docbook file from bzr.  If not you can find instructions here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/Repository
<`Matir> not yet, but I'll do that now
<sommer> `Matir: if there's anything specific you'd like to have documented feel free to work on that as well
<sommer> basically at this time we're trying to update the current docs for Hardy
<sommer> in doing that we've added a lot of new content
<sommer> `Matir: also the server team has meetings every tuesday at 1600 utc in #ubuntu-meeting
<sommer> I believe the next meeting is schedulded for the 8th... feel free to attend documentation is usually discussed at some point
<`Matir> ok, cool.  Any particular parts of the documentation I should look at?
<sommer> `Matir: whatever you feel comfortable with... the DNS section has been recenlty overhauled, if you'd like to provide some feed back that would be awesome
<sommer> also patches are most welcome :0
<`Matir> I'll definitely take a look at it
<`Matir> It's downloading right now
<sommer> `Matir: cool, the first download ususally takes some time... heh
<jjesse> isn't there a lightwieght checkout?
<jjesse> that doesn't download all of the history?
<sommer> I believe so... haven't used it myself though
<jjesse> bzr checkout -lightwieght (provides a lighwieght checkout)
<`Matir> let me give that a shot
<`Matir> sommer, just so I can get a feel for where everything is, do you know which file contains the DNS section?  it's not immediately obvious to me
<sommer> `Matir: sure, the server guide files are located in generic/server/C/
<sommer> `Matir: dns is generic/server/C/dns.xml
<`Matir> sommer, ah... is the ubuntu/ directory the desktop guide?
<sommer> I believe so
<`Matir> ah... ok, I'll take a look at it... thanks!
<sommer> also you can view the files using yelp by: yelp file://$(pwd)/generic/server/C/server.xml
<sommer> at least thats what I use
<nivek> ifireball: I've finished my first proof of Enviroment Variables. I'll take another pass at it in a while. :)
<sommer> `Matir: no problem... feel free to ping me here with any feedback
<sommer> `Matir: you can also mail the doc list :-)
<ifireball> nivek: cool, that will give me time to cover some omissions that were brought to my attention...
<ifireball> does the wiki has a syntax to allow multi-lined table cells?
<Flannel> ifireball: yeah, the table cells are allowed to be multilined
<ifireball> but what is the syntax for that other then using [[BR]] ? if the line doesn't end with || is doesn't get made into a table row
<ifireball> how can I, for example, put numbered lists in table cells?
<Flannel> ifireball: I'm not sure you can.
<ifireball> probably can't
<ifireball> this makes describing "$DISPLAY" in a table cell really difficult...
<nivek> ifireball: For every single one of your tables, you should change "What its for" to "What it's for" ... Its is posessive. Like, "Its smell was overwhelming." It's is the equivelant of "it is".
<ifireball> i thought the apostrophe was added when indicating possession, e.g. ifb's thingie as opposed to ifbs nice
<nivek> On regular nouns it is.
<nivek> With it, its == posessive and it's == it is.
<nivek> The cat's water = possesive. Its water = posessive. It's water = It is water.
<ifireball> I see, ok. btw 3rd level titles don't work?
<nivek> As in, === Title ===?
<ifireball> yeah
<nivek> Make sure there's a space after the first three equal signs and before the last three.
<ifireball> there is
<nivek> Hmm. Have you saved your changes already? If so I'll go check.
<ifireball> w8
<ifireball> ok. now it works... weird...
<ifireball> ok, saved.
<ubotu> New bug: #179959 in ubuntu-docs (main) "mod_ssl should not use +CompatEnvVars" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/179959
<nivek> ifireball: Go ahead and ping me when you're done with additions and corrections and I'll reproof it. :)
<ifireball> nivek: ping ^^
<nivek> ifireball: Hehe, okay.
<ifireball> we should really find someone to fill in the compilation table, my "make" is too rusty for me to trust my memory here
<nivek> Send a message to the mailing list. There has to be at least one doc team member who knows their stuff or else knows someone else who does.
<ifireball> hmm... good point
<ifireball> well, time for me to hit the sack, goodnight everyone
<nivek> Goodnight.
#ubuntu-doc 2008-01-03
<mdke> Kamping_Kaiser: bzr
 * Kamping_Kaiser goes to check what he said
<Kamping_Kaiser> ahk.
* mdke changed the topic of #ubuntu-doc to: Ubuntu Documentation Team - visit https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam to contribute | Get involved! http://www.mdke.org/?p=67 | Channel log at http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/ | Please observe the Ubuntu Code of Conduct - http://www.ubuntu.com/community/conduct
<mdke> actually, we don't need to refer to it at all, it's all explained from the main wiki page
<mdke> thanks for pointing it out
<Kamping_Kaiser> np
<mdke> morning mpt
<mpt> hi mdke
<mdke> mpt: are you still in London?
<mdke> mpt: gtg, i'll try and catch you another time
<mpt> mdke, yes, we should have lunch sometime
<Kamping_Kaiser> any idea where i'd ask about the mailling lists configuration? for about 30 minutes i think i've been bouncing mail, but i'm still getting mail from the -doc list. i assume the others have frozen me/delayed more deliveries. i was wondering how to check how long it would be for
<Kamping_Kaiser> i think i bounced off all the lists :(
<sommer> mdke: hello, I'm confused about the fix-urls.sh script... it seems to leave a lot of ghelp links when I run it against a local build
<sommer> mdke: I'm using the one I found for feisty though... just wondering if there's an updated one?
<sommer> mdke: or other method?
<mdke> sommer: there should be one for gutsy too, but the problem (I recollect) was that I didn't update the script so that it contains a solution to any of the new ghelp links that were introduced since feisty
<mdke> sommer: so the solution is to grep through all the docs and find ghelp links, then check to see if they are included in the fix-urls script
<mdke> Kamping_Kaiser: it is set to 5 points
<mdke> Kamping_Kaiser: you can only get one point in a day
<sommer> mdke: gotcha... is that the best way to do it?  just wondering if maybe a python script maybe able to work accross releases?
<sommer> from my simple greps so far there a quite a few new links
<sommer> mdke: I can start work on a python script to change the links if you think it'd be worth it
<mdke> sommer: definitely. the existing solution is a hack
<sommer> mdke: okay, I'll see what I can come up with
<sommer> sometime hacks are fun too :)
<mdke> thanks dude
<LaserJock> anybody know what the status on doc.ubuntu.com is?
 * LaserJock wonders if his IRC client is even connected.
<sommer> LaserJock: last time I checked the status was "dated"
<sommer> you probably figured that though :-)
<sommer> I filed bug 173104 a while back
<ubotu> Launchpad bug 173104 in ubuntu-docs "doc.ubuntu.com/  needs updated" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/173104
<LaserJock> sommer: right, I just wonder how things are going
<LaserJock> doc.ubuntu.com was pretty important for the stuff I was doing
<sommer> ya I think a place to have the development docs built would be very helpful
<sommer> mdke probably knows more on the status
<LaserJock> well, I was "housing" docs on doc.ubuntu.com
<LaserJock> so now I have no place to put stuff at the moment and links to doc.ubuntu.com
<sommer> ah
<LaserJock> both the Ubuntu Packaging Guide and Edubuntu docs are on doc.ubuntu.com
<LaserJock> and not on help.ubuntu.com
<sommer> gotcha... didn't the packaging guide move to the wiki? or is moving
<LaserJock> yes
<LaserJock> but there are still tons of links around the web
<LaserJock> I can fix everything, but I'm wondering if I should just give up on doc.u.c or if it's going to come back
<sommer> good question... might be good to ask on the ml
<mdke> LaserJock: yes, I've been given access now. I haven't set up the updating of the site yet because the build utilities aren't installed yet
<mdke> LaserJock: shouldn't be much longer
<LaserJock> mdke: cool, thanks
<Kamping_Kaiser> mdke, wonder whats up then. definitely not getting email :/ thanks for the reply though
#ubuntu-doc 2008-01-04
<snookmz> is this a Ubuntu help channel?
<nixternal> snookmz: you are looking for #ubuntu
<snookmz> thanks :-)
<nixternal> no problem
<crimsun> is this a nixternal help channel?
<nixternal> #psychiatric for that please
<crimsun> it seems to be invited only and/or keyed.
<crimsun> invite-only*
<kgoetz> lol
<posingaspopular> crimsun: just show up at his house and demand help. works for me
 * nixternal purchases a new gun
<crimsun> that's a nifty nerf gun, rich
 * nixternal fills up his super soaker with nair
<posingaspopular> haha no you didn't! you can't because you got a ticket for drag racing snowmobiles
<nixternal> not drag racing snowmobiles, drag racing a cop trying to catch me :p
<posingaspopular> that's not the story im selling people
<nixternal> haha
<nixternal> he was to lazy to get out of his car and follow the tracks, so he went door-to-door
<posingaspopular> hahaah
<sommer> mdke: this whole link thing is quite a large task... wholly pete!
<jjesse> nixternal: looking at kubuntu-kde4 are we going to duplicate each doc for that directory or what?
<sommer> is there a simple way to render ghelp links to html?
<sommer> I see from past messages to the ml that this isn't a new issue, but maybe it'd been solved since 05?
<nixternal> jjesse: for kde4, I think...actually I don't know what I think just yet on it..that is why I haven't done much with it just yet
<nixternal> we might only get a simple "about" doc done for Hardy on it...don't know just yet
#ubuntu-doc 2008-01-05
<posingaspopular> hey there j1mc
<posingaspopular> want to PM me and talk about tomorrow morning?
#ubuntu-doc 2008-12-29
<Traveler3> Hi everybody. You are doing a great job. However, I just want to point out that the "Basic Skills" documentation is somewhat nonsense for begeniers
#ubuntu-doc 2008-12-30
<Rocket2DMn> mdke, I noticed that your sticky on the Forums is rather old and a little outdated
<Rocket2DMn> If you'd like to rewrite it in order to encourage more involvement with the wiki, let me know
<Rocket2DMn> I can push it through quickly
<Rocket2DMn> I was also wondering why we can't set Importance on bugs filed against Ubuntu Documentation
<jjesse> Rocket2DMn: isn't it only people in bugsquad who can set importance
<Rocket2DMn> mdke, thread = http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=81999
<Rocket2DMn> jjesse, im not talking about bugs filed against ubuntu-docs (Ubuntu)
<Rocket2DMn> jjesse, for example https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu-doc/+bug/47504 vs https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ubuntu-docs/+bug/303578
<Rocket2DMn> ubuntu-docs is a package in Ubuntu, Ubuntu Documentation is a team/project
<jjesse> hrm must be something with the project then?
<Rocket2DMn> its just how the configuraiton is set on LP, it may be intentional
<Rocket2DMn> I also see this old team - https://launchpad.net/~wikiforumteam
<jjesse> is that a subset of ubuntu docs team?
<Rocket2DMn> its a subset of the WikiTeam
<Rocket2DMn> not sure why though, i think it is rather old
<jjesse> hrmm looks pretty old odn't know what it is there for
<Rocket2DMn> i think it was an attempt to get members of the forums involved in documentation
<Rocket2DMn> i dont think its needed though, even to spark interest from forum members
<Rocket2DMn> thats where i originated
<jjesse> hrmm is there a team leader that you could talk to about changing/deleting it?
<Rocket2DMn> the LP team? yeah.... mathew...
#ubuntu-doc 2009-01-02
<ashiswin> hello
<ashiswin> is jjesse online?
#ubuntu-doc 2009-01-03
<cristian_c> Hi
<cristian_c> i'm a italian user
<cristian_c> I'm translating https://help.ubuntu.com/community/OperaBrowser
<cristian_c> I'd like to do a question
<cristian_c> Here is told: Now copy the .so file to /usr/lib32 (you need the symlink too):
<cristian_c> and
<cristian_c> sudo cp ~/Desktop/usr/lib/libaspell* /usr/lib32/
<cristian_c> Is wrong this instruction?
<cristian_c> Why is needed a symlink?
<cristian_c> up
<cristian_c> Do you know some wiki admin
<cristian_c> ?
<cristian_c> hi
<cristian_c> I'd like to ask him the question about wiki Opera page
#ubuntu-doc 2009-01-04
<jimdogstar> hiya, anyone about using an acer aspire one with ibex?
<jimdogstar> got the wireless led working and was wondering how to go about it
<jimdogstar> editing the wiki that is
<jimdogstar> any helpful people about?
<mdke> jimdogstar: editing the wiki is the same regardless of what hardware you use. Have a look at https://help.ubuntu.com/community/WikiGuide
<cristian_c> Hi,Gwalhir
<cristian_c> hi guys
<cristian_c> I'd like to ask you a question
<cristian_c> I'm translating Opera wiki page
<cristian_c> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/OperaBrowser
<cristian_c> I'd like to know some poits I don't understand
<cristian_c> *points
<cristian_c> Here is told:
<cristian_c> Now copy the .so file to /usr/lib32 (you need the symlink too):
<cristian_c> sudo cp ~/Desktop/usr/lib/libaspell* /usr/lib32/
<cristian_c> but ~/Desktop/usr/lib/libaspell* is not a .so file!
<cristian_c> What means, on this point, "yuo need the symlink too"?
<j1mc> hey all - we should be avoiding use of contractions, right?
<j1mc> this is per: http://library.gnome.org/devel/gdp-style-guide/stable/locale-5.html.en
<j1mc> yes, we should avoid contractions.  :)  this is also per the ubuntu-doc style guide.
<tmart> Question, how are bugs assigned to individuals?
<mdke> tmart: by clicking on the arrow next to the assigned column
<mdke> tmart: then you choose the person in the "Assigned to" box
<tmart> ok cool, thank you
#ubuntu-doc 2010-01-04
<nixternal> what's up with this manual project?
#ubuntu-doc 2010-01-05
<Rocket2DMn> nixternal, who knows, it happens all too often
<Rocket2DMn> i agree with what you said in your email
<Rocket2DMn> i never got around to posting such a response myself
<nixternal> it is just odd that out of the blue this pops up, and I am reading via lxer.com that it is official
<nixternal> I don't follow the Ubuntu side of docs much, as I don't need to...if there is something for me to follow, mdke will chime up and poke me :)
<nixternal> so I wasn't sure if this was their idea or what, but I don't see any doc team backing
<Rocket2DMn> i hadnt heard anything else about it except for that email chain
<Rocket2DMn> i know mdke has been very busy and seems impossible to get ahold of recently
<nixternal> how he makes time is still beyond me...he is a lawyer for pete's sake, and my friends who are lawyers are rarely available to do much
<nixternal> well except sue teh pants off of people :p
<Rocket2DMn> hehe, nice
<Rocket2DMn> he also wrote this according to his wiki "https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Video#A%20note%20on%20the%20different%20types%20of%20drivers%20available%20for%20ATI%20cards"
<Rocket2DMn> too bad it's in the wrong place
<tonyyarusso> What's the current licensing of wiki.ubuntu.com and help.ubuntu.com?  The info I've found appears out of date to me, and I thought I remembered it being dual-licensed.
<nixternal> CC-By-SA 3.0
<nixternal> https://help.ubuntu.com/legal.html
<nixternal> tonyyarusso: ^^
<tonyyarusso> nixternal: So not dual, just CC, okay.  Does that also apply to wiki. or is that different?
<Flannel> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/License
<nixternal> it applies to the wiki as well
#ubuntu-doc 2010-01-06
<humphreybc> maybe someone can tell me why "{{attachment:manuallogo.png|Ubuntu Manual|align="middle"}}" still makes my image left aligned on our wiki page?
<humphreybc> i've tried to use "middle" middle "center" center "centre" and centre but none of these words seem to work. using "left" or "right" does the right thing
<humphreybc> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-manual - click edit and check out the source, the first line is the attachment line
#ubuntu-doc 2010-01-09
<mdke> nixternal: actually wiki.ubuntu.com isn't licensed at all. It's a bit of an issue - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/WikiLicensing
<mdke> Rocket2DMn: hi :)
<Rocket2DMn> hey mdke
<Rocket2DMn> long time no chat buddy
<Rocket2DMn> how are you?
<mdke> very well thanks, you?
<mdke> I'm just preparing an upload of ubuntu-docs but it is taking me ages because you've fixed so many bugs!
<Rocket2DMn> doin ok, just woke up and ready to rock n roll
<mdke> awesome work
<Rocket2DMn> cool, thanks, I've been able to enlist a bit of help, though I haven't gotten much back from those people yet
<mdke> Someone called Scott Shields seems to appear a fair bit
<mdke> but your name is all over this changelog :)
<Rocket2DMn> Yes, Scott has done some work, Vikram is also trying to get started, though I think he is mainly tasked with kubuntu-docs right now
<mdke> good stuff
<mdke> after the upload is done and the bugs are closed, it might be worth having a quick sweep for bugs still marked as "Fix Committed" to see if I missed any in the changelog
<Rocket2DMn> ok
<Rocket2DMn> most of the bugs that were fixed were not complicated ones, there are still quite a few outstanding
<Rocket2DMn> I also closed off a number of help requests and upgrade crash reports over a period of time (most of them were "short reads")
<mdke> great, thanks
<mdke> wonder why we get so many of those
<Rocket2DMn> well ubuntu-docs is a failry large package isnt it?
<Rocket2DMn> we also have a fair number of files included, so i wouild expect we would get more than others
<mdke> yes, the upgrade seems to take quite a long time
<Rocket2DMn> I also prioritized that majority of remaining bugs which helps give us a clearer idea of where we need to focus attention.  There shouldn't be any more High priority bugs by the time we release for Lucid and most or all of the medium ones should be fixed as well
<mdke> awesome work dude
<mdke> right, a test build and then I'll do the upload
<Rocket2DMn> I was able to find more time than I expected over the holidays, but I can't maintain that level at this point
 * mdke nods
<mdke> ok, I'm going to leave this build running and come back later
<Rocket2DMn> ok
<Rocket2DMn> mdke, do you have instructions anywhere on how to do the build and deploy process for ubuntu-docs? Not that I want to do it ( I dont!), but it would be good to have that info somewhere
<Rocket2DMn> including what needs to be done to get updates pushed to the web
<Rocket2DMn> k i gotta run some errands mdke , i'll bbl, feel free to leave messages and i'll check them out when i can
<mdke> Rocket2DMn: for the package, it's nothing special, just basic level packaging. You need specific upload rights to upload it though
<mdke> Rocket2DMn: for the website, it's set out here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/SystemDocumentation/BuildingDocumentation
<Rocket2DMn> thanks mdke , on that topic see bug 502299
<ubot4> Launchpad bug 502299 in ubuntu-docs "The Ubuntu Installer documentation translations aren't published online" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/502299
<Rocket2DMn> mdke, Vikram asked me to have you look at his latest patch for bug 381650
<ubot4> Launchpad bug 381650 in ubuntu-docs "help.ubuntu.com does not tell you how to determine which version you have" [Wishlist,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/381650
<Rocket2DMn> lol that fixed 40 bugs
<Rocket2DMn> 41 actually
<Rocket2DMn> mdke, looks like we missed a few, there are some bugs still marked as Fix Committed
<Rocket2DMn> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ubuntu-docs/+bug/494912
<ubot4> Launchpad bug 494912 in ubuntu-docs "9.10 Help Documentation error >> Internet and Networks>> Chapter 2. Connecting" [Low,Fix committed]
<Rocket2DMn> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ubuntu-docs/+bug/452262
<Rocket2DMn> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ubuntu-docs/+bug/449667
<ubot4> Launchpad bug 452262 in ubuntu-docs "Wrong apt: link in musicvideophotos" [Medium,Fix committed]
<ubot4> Launchpad bug 449667 in ubuntu-docs "Small mistake in chapter "Hardware" in the Ubuntu documentation" [Medium,Fix committed]
<Rocket2DMn> mdke, is there anything you need to do with those? Or do we just mark them as Fix Released manually
<mdke> Rocket2DMn: as long as you are satisfied that the fix actually is in the package, please just mark them as fix released. If you like you can state that it is released in version 10.04.1
<Rocket2DMn> ok mdke , i know they are in the ubuntu-docs branch, i can update my lucid install and check there too
<mdke> Rocket2DMn: as long as they are in the lucid branch, that's fine.
<Rocket2DMn> ok, i'll mark them, i did double check that they are in the branch
<mdke> thanks, sorry for missing em
<Rocket2DMn> mdke, can you let me know about bug 460365 - I think we already have this, but it's the way we export that causes the problem
<ubot4> Launchpad bug 460365 in ubuntu-translations "Create a separate license document and include it in all documents" [Low,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/460365
<Rocket2DMn> no problem
<Rocket2DMn> hmm i dont see ubuntu-docs in lucid yet, either its still pending or the mirror im using isnt up to date yet
<mdke> it will take some significant time to build
<Rocket2DMn> its ok
<mdke> as to bug 460365, I don't think that there is a simple solution for that. It's because we include the legalnotice file as an entity, and when translations are generated, entities are expanded so that they are incorporated directly into the translation file
<ubot4> Launchpad bug 460365 in ubuntu-translations "Create a separate license document and include it in all documents" [Low,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/460365
<Rocket2DMn> that's what I thought
<Rocket2DMn> Does Rosetta force you to re-translate strings in separate documents even if they are exactly the same?
<mdke> yes, but it offers suggestions for identical strings so it can just be copy/pasted
<Rocket2DMn> understood
<dhillon-v10> mdke, hi, happy new year, there were some other little bugs in the docs, that I attached a patch to, can you review them when you get some time
<dhillon-v10> Rocket2DMn, hi :)
<Rocket2DMn> hey dhillon-v10 , whats up
<mdke> dhillon-v10: happy new year to you. yep, I have a few bugs on my todo list that Rocket2DMn has kindly sorted for me :)
<dhillon-v10> mdke, thanks a bunch :)
<dhillon-v10> Rocket2DMn, nothing much, how about you
<Rocket2DMn> hehe, any ideas on that license bug mdke ?  Is there anything we can actually do about it?
<dhillon-v10> Rocket2DMn, how about we just mark it invalid because it a *lot* of work
<Rocket2DMn> dhillon-v10, just talkin to mdke about some bugs, we have quite a list
<dhillon-v10> Rocket2DMn, okay :)
<Rocket2DMn> lol dhillon-v10 , i don't think so.  If it's something we decide not to fix, we could close it as Won't Fix, but if we think it is something that could be adjusted to make life easier for translators, we should see what we can do
<mdke> Rocket2DMn: I'm posting to the bug and will have a think about it
<mdke> maybe David will have some ideas
<Rocket2DMn> sounds good mdke
<Rocket2DMn> well mdke since you're still here, i'll keeping throwing bugs at you :)
<Rocket2DMn> in my email i mentioned bugs open for stable releases (esp. Intrepid)
<Rocket2DMn> what would you like to do with those?
<Rocket2DMn> we can address them individually of course
<mdke> I'm going to have a poke around with this translation item
<Rocket2DMn> mdke, on the topic of translations - bug 362871 - does that need to be open against Ubuntu Translations project?
<ubot4> Launchpad bug 362871 in ubuntu-docs "Main Page and Windows Glossary aren't RTL in Arabic" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/362871
<mdke> ok, can't think of anything for the legalnotice one
 * mdke gives up
<mdke> I wonder if 362871 is a yelp bug
<dhillon-v10> mdke, could it be a problem in rendering
<mdke> hmm
<Rocket2DMn> https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=573159
<ubot4> Gnome bug 573159 in stylesheets "rtl problems rendering tables of contents in yelp" [Blocker,Needinfo]
<Rocket2DMn> i'm gonna re-assign the bug to yelp and request the OP to test it in 9.10
<shaunm> if somebody could attach a docbook file to an upstream yelp bug, it would help me fix it
<Rocket2DMn> shaunm, what bug?
<Rocket2DMn> that one i just mentioned?
<shaunm> hmm
<Rocket2DMn> i dont have any in other languages i dont think
<shaunm> this looks like a different rtl issue than that bug
<shaunm> there was another bug open about rtl issues, but it was closed recently
<shaunm> a new bug would be easiest
<Rocket2DMn> shaunm, let's see if the reporter sees the problem in 9.10.  if it's still an issue, we can open a new bug upstream
<shaunm> ok
<shaunm> I did do a lot of RTL fixes in yelp 2.28
<mdke> thanks Rocket2DMn
#ubuntu-doc 2010-01-10
<dhillon-v10> starcraftman, hi what's up :) need some help here: https://wiki.kubuntu.org/KarmicKoala/Beta/Kubuntu this page look pretty ugly why?
<starcraftman> dhillon-v10: oh geez, what happened.
<starcraftman> Hmmm, investigating.
<starcraftman> dhillon-v10: I think I've narrowed it down to table of contents section, seems to be tweaked, generating problems for headers with overlap.
<starcraftman> I'm comparing to see, got a few good ones side by side.
<dhillon-v10> starcraftman, the webpage looks extremely messed up, could there be a rendering problem somewhere
<starcraftman> dhillon-v10: refresh, page fixed I think.
<j1mc> hi starcraftman and dhillon-v10
<dhillon-v10> j1mc, hey what's up long time no see :)
<j1mc> :)  yeah
<dhillon-v10> starcraftman, you Sir are awesome, what was the problem ?
<j1mc> starcraftman: i think i'm going to branch off of ubuntu-docs for xubuntu-docs now... would now be a good time to do so?
<j1mc> any big surgery planned for ubuntu docs in the near future?
<starcraftman> dhillon-v10: table of contents was broken. Was using a custom image for background but it was messing up the rendering. I removed it.
<starcraftman> See diff.
<starcraftman> also had a few erroneous modifications I think.
<dhillon-v10> starcraftman, ahh I forgot about the diff :)
<dhillon-v10> j1mc, hey can you add me to xubuntu-docs so I can triage bug importance and such
<j1mc> dhillon-v10: sure!
<dhillon-v10> j1mc, thanks a bunch, soon I will apply for bug-control and then I can triage importance anyways :)
<starcraftman> j1mc: as to time, I dunno. You'd be better served asking someone more involved in system, I'm more a wiki person really.
<dhillon-v10> starcraftman, here: https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/kubuntu-website/+bug/444776 thanks a *lot*
<ubot4> Launchpad bug 444776 in kubuntu-website "Beta page rendered ugly" [Undecided,Fix released]
<j1mc> starcraftman: i think i'll have a go of it anyway.  it needs to be done so that i can get more xubuntu-doc contributors
<dhillon-v10> j1mc, agreed right now the documentation for xubuntu need a lot of love
<dhillon-v10> j1mc, starcraftman did you guys know that okular lost its only maintainer :(
<j1mc> :(
<starcraftman> dhillon-v10: really? Oh noez!
<starcraftman> I use that.
<starcraftman> I like it too tbh.
<dhillon-v10> j1mc, starcraftman I want to me the maintainer but don't know how hard its going to be :) but I'll give it a shot anyways and find out
<starcraftman> dhillon-v10: awesome, good luck. I don't think I know enough programming to undertake a project.
<starcraftman> yet.
<dhillon-v10> :)
<starcraftman> dhillon-v10: what's okular written in anyway?
<dhillon-v10> starcraftman, I believe KDE API and something else :)
<dhillon-v10> j1mc, did you add me yet?
<dhillon-v10> j1mc, or do I have to wait for some time before I can start triaging
<j1mc> dhillon-v10: sorry, i'll add you.
<j1mc> just a moment.
<dhillon-v10> j1mc, np :)
<dhillon-v10> j1mc, I know you are pretty busy so its okay
<j1mc> dhillon-v10: what is your lp username?
<dhillon-v10> dhillon-v10 :)
<j1mc> dhillon-v10: i'm actually not an admin of the xubuntu-doc team on LP!  :)
<j1mc> heh
<j1mc> i've asked cody somerville to make me an admin.  it might be tomorrow before he gets to it, though.
<dhillon-v10> j1mc, np :) I'll pick up something else then
<j1mc> what?  wait no... come back.  :)  don't not-help xubuntu docs.  :)
<dhillon-v10> :) I will just set the status oh and I don't think I'll make it to the gnome-docs meeting tomorrow, something urgent just came up sorry
<j1mc> dhillon-v10: np
<dhillon-v10> j1mc, actually I told Shaun to put the templates topic in there, since I have been working on a lot of them and they could be very helpful to the writers (like you)
<j1mc> right :)
<j1mc> thanks!
<Kr0ntab> greets folks
<Kr0ntab> I was going to submit a patch to the list, but before I do I'd liek some input.  In the advanced topics index, there is a link to the Ubuntu Server Guide.  Even though the directory structure and the server guide header is "serverguide" and "Ubuntu Server Guide" respectively, the link title is labeled "Installing Server Applications".  I would like to rename this to "Ubuntu Server Guide" for consistency and SEO purposes.  Any input from the gr
<Kr0ntab> oup?
<Kr0ntab> btw... sent an email out to the list.  Probably more productive that way.
<shimul> Hi
<shimul> Can anyone please tell me how I can download 9.10 desktop edition manual
<shimul> Can you please tell me how I can download 9.10 desktop edition manual
<shimul> Can anyone please tell me how I can download 9.10 desktop edition manual
#ubuntu-doc 2011-01-06
<epic93> anyone want to play some battle for wesnoth sometime?
<epic93> Oops. Sorry. Wrong channel tab >.<
<lukas__> hi, If some of you is responsible for documenting how to customize ubuntu packages (apt-src,dpkg-source,edit,dpkg-buildpackage) please add a paragraph on that is vital to run aptitude hold package_name AND echo "package_name"|dpkg --set-selections
<lukas__> will save someone loads of time
#ubuntu-doc 2011-01-09
<Rocket2DMn> Meeting in 5 minutes?
<j1mc> meeting in a few minutes
<Rocket2DMn> hey j1mc , how are you?
<j1mc> hi there, Rocket2DMn :)
<j1mc> Rocket2DMn: you are Connor, right?
<Rocket2DMn> yup
<mdke> evening chaps
<j1mc> hello, mdke
<Rocket2DMn> hey mdke , long time no see, hope you are well
<mdke> happy new year
<mdke> not bad thanks, how are you guys?
<j1mc> same to you!
<j1mc> pretty good here. :)
<Rocket2DMn> doing well here
<mdke> hey philbull
<j1mc> philbull: o/
<philbull> hey
<j1mc> so far we have myself, philbull, mdke, Rocket2DMn ... anyone else?
<j1mc> shall we get started?
<mdke> sure
<philbull> yep
<j1mc> so, i think that the options around the docs have been pretty well hashed-out on the mailing list
<j1mc> does anyone have anything to add re: copyright assignment agreement
<Pendulum> I have a question, how is this going to effect future people who want to be involved with docs and want to write unity documentation?
<mdke> I think that at the moment, enough core contributors object to copyright assignment that we should format plans on the basis that it should not be required
<Pendulum> I realise that as a whole the team doesn't want to be involved with it, but does that mean that they'd have to have a separate project?
<mdke> Pendulum: I guess that depends on how we decide to proceed. We're not talking about not being involved with unity documentation. If Ubuntu uses Unity, and we're writing documentation for Ubuntu, we'll need to write for Unity
<j1mc> Pendulum: i don't think that there would need to be a "unity docs team," but there would be a unity-docs repository
<Pendulum> okay, that makes sense. I just wasn't clear :)
<mdke> j1mc: would there?
<philbull> I had some emails about this from Canonical people
<Pendulum> (and as it's about to come up that my team -the accessibility team- is going to be looking for some documentation guidance soon specifically Unity-related)
<philbull> They said they'd talk to me in the New Year
<philbull> (don't know when; guess they're pretty busy about now)
<Rocket2DMn> Would upstream unity documentation exist in the gnome-user-docs?
<mdke> Rocket2DMn: I don't see how it can; unity hasn't been accepted into gnome as far as I understand
<philbull> Rocket2DMn: No, it won't
<j1mc> mdke: if someone wanted to explicity document unity only, i would think that there would need to be a repository for that
<shaunm> Pendulum: how much of the accessibility user experience will be the same as with stock gnome in a unity-using ubuntu?
<philbull> The gnome-user-docs will be firmly based on gnome-shell
<mdke> j1mc: that would be an upstream issue I guess
<Rocket2DMn> ok, thanks, i wasn't sure if Gnome was using Unity
<Pendulum> shaunm: they're having to write an accessibility framework for Unity so we're not even sure yet because there functionality hasn't made it in yet
<Pendulum> (it's due Alpha2)
<shaunm> ok
<shaunm> Pendulum: but given all the atk bridges and such, orca would still be used for screen reading and braille, yes?
<mdke> philbull: I don't think you have commented on the mailing list about the various options, I was interested to find out how you see things
<Pendulum> shaunm: orca yes, but I'm not sure any decision has been made about some of the other things -- but I suspect this is a larger conversation that should come outside of this meeting :)
<j1mc> mdke: upstream being "unity developers" in this case?
<philbull> mdke: First of all, I'm tremendously pissed off about the whole thing
<mdke> j1mc: I guess so
<philbull> The copyright assignment thing is really divisive
<philbull> Whatever we do, we risk wasting our time
<mdke> well
<zkriesse> Oh doc meeting?
<mdke> that's the case of any contributions to Ubuntu, it's not a documentation specific issue
<philbull> true
<mdke> I feel the same way, but I think it's not a documentation issue specifically
<philbull> Yes, but we need to talk about the docs here
<mdke> sure
<philbull> Ideally, they'd stop requiring the CCA
<czajkowski> aye the same could be said about a patch
<philbull> My worry is that the same thing will happen with the Unity docs as happened with the gnome-app-install/software-center docs
<philbull> We had docs for that, and someone at Canonical just wrote their own and put them directly in the package
<j1mc> philbull: i wasn't aware of that
<j1mc> philbull: did someone request the ubuntu-doc author(s) to sign the copyright agreement?
<philbull> j1mc: Yes, the docs for software-center weren't written by the Ubuntu Docs team!
<mdke> mpt wrote them, iirc
<philbull> j1mc: Not in that case. As far as I'm aware, we didn't even hear about them
<Rocket2DMn> Quick question guys - are there currently any docs for Unity in any format?
<mdke> not as far as I know
<j1mc> Rocket2DMn: not that i'm aware of... are there any docs from the netbook edition that used the Unity layout?
<Rocket2DMn> Not sure, I'm afraid I've been out of the loop a fair amount since we released Lucid
<Rocket2DMn> Never did any netbook documentation either
<mdke> philbull: that particular issue may have been a problem of lack of communication between docteam and development team; here I think we have a more subtle issue
<philbull> mdke: Perhaps, but I wanted to point out that there is precedent
<mdke> which is that reasons of principle might prevent us from contributing upstream or to the package
<mdke> realistically is there any other option than modifying ubuntu-docs to fit unity and carrying on as before?
<Rocket2DMn> mdke, tbh, if you can ever get a development team to communicate effectively and in a timely manner with a doc team,, you're achieving something that few groups have been able to pull off and maintain
<j1mc> let's say that canonical develops their own unity-docs package, would it be possible to integrate our docs with it?
<Rocket2DMn> Sorry if that sounds skeptical
<j1mc> Rocket2DMn: i think that is a problem of many developer/documentor relationships - not just in ubuntu / canonical.
<mdke> j1mc: I guess it depends on how it is done. If they follow a similar strategy to gnome-user-docs, and write in Mallard, then I suppose there is no reason why not
<Rocket2DMn> j1mc, yes, and as a professional software dev, I know both sides of it
<philbull> j1mc: Yes, it wouldn't be as pretty, but it would work
<philbull> Especially if they use Mallard. We can just symlink it in (although there may be subtle licensing issues there)
<dhillon-v10> philbull: ping
<j1mc> philbull: good point re: licensing issues
<philbull> mdke: Realistically, I don't think there is any other option but to modify ubuntu-docs
<mdke> philbull: me neither
<philbull> The modifications wouldn't be too difficult for the most part
<philbull> We'd just replace all of the launching instructions with Unity-specific ones
<mdke> I haven't tried Unity yet. Is it easy to run in a VM?
<mdke> I think I've read that it isn't
<philbull> Although there is the issue of the fallback GNOME 2 UI...
<j1mc> mdke: like gnome-shell, i don't think it can be run in a VM
<Pendulum> j1mc: that's the experience I've had
<shaunm> philbull: we don't even have a good docs story for fallback in gnome
<Rocket2DMn> I think Unity required 3d acceleration which could make it difficult to run in a VM depending on your setup
<Pendulum> there might be a version of virtualbox that will do it
<Pendulum> but most VMs can't do the 3D acceleration
<mdke> philbull: as to fallback, I think the first thing is to document the default; we have only rarely documented non-default software
<Rocket2DMn> Pendulum, i think you're right that vbox can, i'm not sure how good it is though.  Regardless of performance, as long as we can get it to run we can document it
<Pendulum> yeah
<philbull> mdke: The thing is, lots of people will be experiencing the fallback!
<mdke> philbull: really?
<philbull> I think so, yes
<mdke> oh dear
<philbull> It depends on whether graphics acceleration is well-supported, I think
<Pendulum> it is also in some ways less of a fallback this time and more of a choice. Both will actually be an option when you log in from the default install
<philbull> I've plenty of experience with chipsets that don't like Compiz
<mdke> shaunm: can you think of any easy way to provide alternative documentation depending on the desktop used? I can't
<philbull> conditionals again...
<j1mc> could we just provide a somewhat updated version (or a version with some "note" admonitions) of our current docs for that?
<j1mc> ... for the fallback?
<mdke> j1mc: the difficulty is how to figure out when it should be shown and when the unity version should be shown
<shaunm> mdke: easy way? no, I can't. ideally, the fallback experience would be something that mimics the full experience closely enough that most textual instructions are still correct. but that's not what's happening
<j1mc> perhaps provide a topic... if you are using the two-panel gnome layout... use these docs...
<mdke> shaunm: nod
<mdke> will gnome-shell have similar fallback issues as unity?
<shaunm> yes
<mdke> doh
<mdke> so yelp can't pick up which desktop is being used?
<philbull> There is an easy (but hacky) way
<shaunm> I'm sure we could figure out a way for yelp to know what desktop shell you're using. an x window property or envar or something.
<philbull> We have a script that detects the desktop and launches Yelp with the right documents open
<shaunm> if the writers actually have the time to create and maintain dual docs like that, I'll figure out the technical end in yelp
<mdke> will the next version of Ubuntu have yelp 3 or yelp 2?
<shaunm> I would think 3, but I don't know for certain
<mdke> hope so
<philbull> If we're shipping GNOME3 apps, we'll be able to ship Yelp 3
<mdke> anyway, as you say, it's quite a heavy burden to maintain two sets of docs
<mdke> apart from the need to figure out how they should live alongside each other and where they should share the same material
<Pendulum> Maybe it's a good time to do some serious recruitment? I know I'm far from the only person who has been interested in documentation for ages but felt like other than wiki work, it was difficult to get involved
<mdke> yes, this is something we've struggled with for a long time
<Rocket2DMn> There are a lot of things people need to learn to contribute - bzr (and version control in general), docbook, update and release processes, etc
<Pendulum> Right, but I have to say that in the past year it's seemed to me that rather than try to teach new people, the default thing has been "here this is what you can do on the wiki". I wonder if there's a way to do doc papercuts so that there are some small things that are easier to use as tools to teach newcomers
<shaunm> question: will the gnome 2 fallback be more or less the same in ubuntu as in gnome-shell?
<Rocket2DMn> Pendulum, before we get into that discussion, is there more we want to talk about for Unity?
<mdke> I'm sure we can do a lot better in that direction
<mdke> anyway, before we can figure out how to make contributing easier, we need to figure out what we are going to work on ourselves
<mdke> shaunm: I would assume so but don't know for sure
<Pendulum> shaunm: as far as I've heard, yes
<shaunm> (aside from the differences that already exist, which aren't trivial from a docs perspective)
<mdke> indeed
<mdke> are the differences so great as to make it impossible to ship single documentation which can be used for both environments?
<j1mc> mdke: by "both environments," you mean unity and the gnome2 layout?
<mdke> if the differences are just about how to open things or where to find things, we might be able to explain how to do those actions on both desktops, and keep the rest of our language neutral and just refer back to those topics when necessary
<mdke> j1mc: yeah
<shaunm> in my (limited) experience with unity, it didn't even offer an easy way to get to nautilus. it just has that Files screen. that's a huge chunk of the docs
<j1mc> i think that having, "if you are using this desktop, do this..." and "if you are using that desktop, do that..." gets pretty cumbersome as a reader, though.
<mdke> j1mc: yes, that's certainly not what I had in mind
<j1mc> i experience that at my work, where different teams are using different releases of the same platform, so they have to follow different instructions
<j1mc> ... we have 15 min left on our hour's time
<mdke> but if we can do instructions like "Open X", with "Open" being a link on how to open applications on each environment, then we at least keep the differences in self-contained places
<mdke> perhaps we should experiment a bit with Unity in order to get some ideas about this issue
<shaunm> I could add conditional processing in the yelp 3 time frame, but: (1) do people have the time and inclination to maintain conditional docs, (2) the current conditional processing proposal has no way to push or replace contents, which means unity instructions either have to be put into gnome docs, or you'd have to patch
<j1mc> yes, i tried alpha1 on my laptop for a bit. i couldn't get unity to work, though.
<philbull> I think the plan with Unity might be to go with Zeitgeist/Activity Journal instead of nautilus
<philbull> not sure, though
<philbull> How about this:
<philbull> We do a simple overview of Unity, discussing basic usage
<philbull> We replace the "Gnome Shell Overview" in the new GNOME desktop help with that by manually patching it out (no need for Mallard conditionals)
<philbull> The desktop help will give us topics on connecting to the internet, managing files and folders, and so on
<Rocket2DMn> Another issue that could pop up if we are to select different documentation to display depending on the environment, is how do we deploy our html docs?
<philbull> That will give us functional, if incomplete, help
<mdke> philbull: when you say desktop help, are you talking about ubuntu-docs or gnome-user-docs?
<philbull> gnome-user-docs
<j1mc> philbull: the new ones that are being worked-on now?
<mdke> so would you jettison ubuntu-docs entirely?
<philbull> j1mc: yes
<philbull> mdke: Not all of it, but lots of it is already obsolete
<mdke> do you think that gnome help is going to be suitable for adoption in that way?
<philbull> mdke: Yes, i think so
<mdke> my concern is that Ubuntu seems to moving away from Gnome, rather than closer, so if we are moving in the opposite direction, that might not work in the long term
<j1mc> mdke: correct, but using what gnome has right now as a jumping-off point would work
<philbull> mdke: true, but the GNOME desktop-help is currently split into a number of topic areas
<j1mc> ubuntu-docs wouldn't need to stay synced with gnome-shell/gnome-user-docs on an ongoing basis
<philbull> we can take whatever is relevant, and its Mallardyness will allow us to do that without too much patching
<mdke> is it reasonably complete?
<j1mc> but having those mallard topics as a starting point would be helpful
<philbull> mdke: Not yet, we need help!
<mdke> ok. This is definitely an interesting idea
<mdke> although we need to give more thought to it than is available at this meeting, I suspect. In particular we should focus on whether patching in/out material will raise the barrier to entry
<Rocket2DMn> I like this, if I'm understanding correctly, we'll be able to use more upstream documentation on basic usage which can replace material we already have
<j1mc> philbull: could you provide the git repo information of the current gnome docs?
<mdke> let's have a look at the docs, at Unity, think about how much patching will be required, and perhaps have another meeting?
<j1mc> mdke: i think that sounds good
<philbull> j1mc: Sure: http://git.gnome.org/browse/gnome-user-docs/
<philbull> mdke: Sounds good, can you raise this on the mailing list please?
<mdke> ok. I will try to summarise the idea and some of the issues on the mailing list and then we can come back, perhaps even a similar time next week?
<Rocket2DMn> That works for me
<philbull> yep
<j1mc> works for me, too
<mdke> cool
<j1mc> thanks, all!
<mdke> catch you soon
<philbull> thanks!
<Rocket2DMn> mdke, any idea what we need to do for bug 555813 ?
<ubot2> Launchpad bug 555813 in ubuntu-docs (Ubuntu) (and 1 other project) "Please, delete the unnecesary es_PR and es_ES templates for ubuntu-docs-about-ubuntu (affects: 1) (heat: 14)" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/555813
#ubuntu-doc 2012-01-02
<oscalation> anyone around?
<oscalation> im wanting to know if help.ubuntu.com is being moved to the new wiki ?
<mdke> oscalation: what is meant by "the new wiki"?
<oscalation> mdke, wiki.ubuntu.com
<oscalation> this wiki looks newer than the wiki used for ubuntu docs
#ubuntu-doc 2012-01-03
<oscalation> anyone around?
<Atamira> nope
<Atamira> oops
 * Atamira slinks off
<oscalation> lol
<oscalation> I Have a question Atamira
<oscalation> i want to update this page https://help.ubuntu.com/community/MailingListFAQs/securingNewInstall
<oscalation> but the title and classification need to be updated imo
<Atamira> email it to the list
<Atamira> the mailing list
<oscalation> How can I update this page from MailingListFAQssecuringNewinstall to ... ubuntu security advice
<Atamira> you'll get quicker answers than in here
<oscalation> hu?
<Atamira> the ubuntu-doc mailing list
<Atamira>  ubuntu-doc@lists.ubuntu.com.
<oscalation> oh ok, one more thing. whats the diff between help.ubuntu.com and wiki.ubuntu.com ?
<Atamira> frankly
<Atamira> i have no idea
<Atamira> i think help.ubuntu.com is the official help page
<mdke> oscalation: help.ubuntu.com is for user documentation and wiki.ubuntu.com is for Ubuntu's teams to manage, coordinate and plan their activities
<mdke> mdke: we don't have plans to merge the two. In fact wiki.ubuntu.com isn't newer
<oscalation> I see. the wiki on wiki.ubuntu looks 100 times better than help.ubuntu
<oscalation> they should change it to match
<mdke> that is being worked on (slowly)
<oscalation> good to know.
#ubuntu-doc 2012-01-06
<iophk> I have two questions about the writing of the server guide: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/SystemDocumentation/UbuntuServerGuide
<iophk> 1) What version of Docbook is being used, v5?
<iophk> 2) What element would be used to link from one Docbook file to a section within another Docbook file?
#ubuntu-doc 2012-01-07
<oscalation> evening
<oscalation> anyone up
#ubuntu-doc 2013-01-01
<lfaraone> Is this the right place to make suggestions to the ubuntu.com text?
<lfaraone> http://www.ubuntu.com/download/help/install-desktop-latest is great, but it isn't linked from http://www.ubuntu.com/download/desktop/thank-you?release=latest&bits=32&distro=desktop, or even from the "official documentation" link which shows a guide of how to use ubuntu, not how to install it.
<jbicha> lfaraone: hey, how are you doing?
<jbicha> I believe the correct place to make website improvement suggestions is https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu-website-content/+filebug
#ubuntu-doc 2013-12-30
<belkinsa> Who maintains the docs for Software Center?
<belkinsa> Nevermind, I found it via LP.
<cprofitt> hello docs
<belkinsa> Hey there
#ubuntu-doc 2013-12-31
<belkinsa> Did our mailing-list get spam that somehow got itself out of the grasp of the mods?
<pleia2> the "confirmed" email?
<pleia2> I think that was just a user mistake, not spam :)
<belkinsa> Yeah.
<belkinsa> Could be.
<pleia2> well they aren't advertising anything
<belkinsa> True.
<pleia2> so probably someone subscribe and didn't understand how it works
<pleia2> subscribed too
<belkinsa> When I think about it, it does look like that.
<pleia2> also, good morning! :)
<belkinsa> Good morning to you on this fine New Years Eve.
#ubuntu-doc 2014-01-04
<SaberX01> Hello all, if we run across a page in help.ubuntu.com that's in need of updating /  clean up, is it ok to go ahead and add those Tags to the top of the Document?
<knome> SaberX01, yes
<SaberX01> knome, Thanks, I submitted bugs on both the ones I've ran across also. This is my IRC nick but have LP account and part of the doc teams.
<knome> sure, thanks for the work
<slacker_nl> who is ki7mt?
<slacker_nl> ahh, SaberX01
<SaberX01> Yeah, that be me :-)
<knome> as a further comment, i'd rather see "any" progress on the wiki than people afraid of editing anything in the fear of doing something wrong
<knome> reverting is easier than recruiting new people to work on the semi-endless amount of pages
<SaberX01> knome, Yes, the amount of work needed to be done is astounding, an to be honest a bit intimidating to new folks I think.
<knome> sure. :)
<belkinsa> I agree.  I think the problem is that it's intimidating rather than new folks not knowing the workflow.  Maybe something about how wiki admins can revert to older versions can be added.
<SaberX01> Maybe that's a project all onto itself, Visual Work Flows, sort of like how the BAZ manual illustrates things.
<belkinsa> That could work.
<belkinsa> Suggest this to the mailing list also.
<SaberX01> Speaking of work flows, Is there a How-Too for setting a Wiki server like the UB Wiki so we can work offline?
<belkinsa> It's in the list somewhere and it's somewhere on a page.
<belkinsa> Give me a sec, I have a e-mail to send and I will find it.
<SaberX01> I been looking, just haven't found it yet.
<belkinsa> It's in the September 2013, one of the suggestion thread ones.
<belkinsa> Little Girl's reply
<SaberX01> I need to submit another bug, the debmirror how-to needs help.
<belkinsa> Go ahead.   I think if we do this, we can get the developers of the programs into this, if it's a package in Ubuntu.
<SaberX01> Definately, it's the alternative to apt-mirror for mirroring the Ubuntu Repos
<SaberX01> weill do deb repos too of course.
<SaberX01> But the Mirror and pach2 integration needs work as the apache2 directives are / have changed and we need VHost files to get render permissions right.
<SaberX01> *Apache2 .. .. ..
<belkinsa> SaberX01, I forgot to tell you something.  You can also use sandbox pages to play around with pages.
<SaberX01> Yeah, I read that on a page somewhere also ..re-SandBox that is.
<belkinsa> And yeah, I can't seem to find the workflow for the wiki folks...
<belkinsa> Sandbox pages: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/SandboxPages
<belkinsa> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-doc/2013-September/017759.html for the offline wiki
<SaberX01> My SandBox need some help :-) .. :https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ki7mt/sandbox
<belkinsa> Well, it's up your how it looks but it does allow others to work with you on improving a page.
<SaberX01> I thought it was MoinMoin  .. I'll stick that on my mirror server and use it that way Thanks belkinsa
<belkinsa> It is MoinMoin.
<belkinsa> Not a problem
<SaberX01> Which, if any, documents are we supposed to be opening bug reports for? I opened a couple for Wiki pages and was told that was an incorrect thing to do.
<knome> SaberX01, if you see a bug/mistake in a wiki page, just fix it
<knome> SaberX01, if you don't know how to, tag the page
<knome> SaberX01, you can also use the mailing list to discuss problematic pages
<SaberX01> knome, Ok, thanks
#ubuntu-doc 2014-01-05
<knome> shouldn't #ubuntu-wiki point here, since the channel itself seems dead
<SaberX01> I would think so .. all *-doc  should do.
<SaberX01> knome .. did you scribe all the PGP stuff? Was pretty nice .. read through it all again this evening.
<knome> scribe... what?
<SaberX01> the GnuPG stuff: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/GnuPrivacyGuardHowto
<knome> no, i didn't touch that :)
<knome> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/IRCTranslatorProject
<knome> what's peoples take on that?
<pleia2> if it were alive, it belongs on wiki.u.c, not the help wiki
<knome> yes, but it seems to be dead
<knome> and even that page has like 150 hits ever
<pleia2> oh neat, the header says that
<knome> yes, i tagged it
<knome> but i was wondering whether we really want to move it
<knome> or just delete it
<pleia2> yeah, might be for deleting since it's pretty old now
<pleia2> I think I might pass out now, see you
<knome> good night! :)
<SaberX01> knome, Well, I spend allot of Time in IRC ..and the main thing I see comming back from those we send to !es ot !ru  etc is the activity on those channels is often very low compare3d to the main support channel.
<SaberX01> As for the doc itself, see how it's in EN .. not sure how much it's being used.
<knome> seems its impossible to delete the page at https://help.ubuntu.com/community/https%3A/wiki.ubuntu.com/phillw/Lubuntu/Documentation/CheckCD
<knome> anybody has ideas?
<knome> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/https:/wiki.ubuntu.com/phillw/Lubuntu/Documentation/CheckCD?action=DeletePage gets you to the "really delete the page?" page, but clicking delete again redirects you to "not found"
<knome> renaming doesn't work either
<knome> ooh, i did it
<knome> just created page https:, then deleted that with all subpages
<SaberX01> knome, Where is the central knowledge base intended to be; help.ubuntu.com  wiki.ubuntu.com  askubuntu.com ?  Which is considered the master reference ?
<knome> wiki.ubuntu.com is directed to developer coordination
<knome> at least loosely
<SaberX01> Ok, so the ubuntu-doc group focus is on help.ubuntu.com  ?
<knome> the main focus should be on the official documentation.
<knome> or at least that's how i see it
<knome> but as with the community help wiki and askubuntu;
<knome> they are different ways to achieve the same things
<knome> some people prefer the other
<knome> the rest something else
<SaberX01> I do not disagree, I am just trying to get my heard around what the priorities are and where to spend calories
<knome> do what scratches your itch
<SaberX01> By official documentation, what are you referring to there?
<SaberX01> Belay my last I found it.
<knome> IdleOne, thanks, it works
<IdleOne> welcome
#ubuntu-doc 2015-01-04
<pianopete1> Hi.  I'm trying to edit the Zenbook Prime Community wiki page to add information about module params for the centrino n advanced 6235 wifi card, but even though I have an Ubuntu One account and I am logged in, I can't seem to get to an edit page.  The page displays "Immutable page".
<belkinsa> pianopete1, did you log in and come back to the page?  If not, that's what you need to do.  Or can just refresh the page you want to edit.
<belkinsa> Oh, the person left....
 * pianopete closed laptop and disconnected! oops.
<pianopete> belkinsa: saw your message.  I tried this.  I even tried adding "?action=edit" to the end of the URL but I get "Vous n'Ãªtes pas autorisÃ© Ã  modifier cette page."
<pianopete> Do I need to be authorised by someone to edit a wiki page ?
<pianopete> Also, it isn't totally clear to me if I should be seeing an edit button or similar.  The "More Actions" drop down menu doesn't have anything immediately obvious
<petepiano1960> Is it possible that if a page has "Immutable" that the ordinary Joe like me can't edit it ?
<pleia2> petepiano1960: very unlikely, it's usually a caching issue
<ahoneybun> anyone know the ubuntu help app's package name?
<pleia2> petepiano1960: the ubuntu help wiki uses very aggressive caching, so this problem is sadly common, if you clear your browser cache it usually helps
<petepiano1960> should I see a specific 'edit' button on the page ?  or do I use the <url>?action=edit syntax ?
<pleia2> petepiano1960: Immutable will be replaced with Edit
<PaulW2U> petepiano1960: here's what I see - http://files.pcw.me.uk/snapshot2.png
<PaulW2U> and yes, I can edit the page :)
<petepiano1960> Hmmm. OK clearly my problem.  Just quit chrome, tried an incognito window, cleared cache..., refreshed with CTRL-SHIFT-R ...
<petepiano1960> but still no joy.
<petepiano1960> going to try another browser
<petepiano1960> same problem with firefox.
<petepiano1960> I am definitey logged in as I now have a 'logout' button at the tope of the page.
<petepiano1960> :-(
<PaulW2U> and your username is also there?
<pleia2> that also happens with the caching issues
<pleia2> there is a ticket oustanding with Canonical for all this, but it's pretty much ignored :\ they really struggle with keeping this wiki even running
<petepiano1960> PaulW2U: nope - username not there.  Just the logout button.
<pleia2> petepiano1960: aha, do you have a launchpad account linked to your Ubuntu One account?
<pleia2> the username comes from launchpad.net
<petepiano1960> Ahh - I think so.  Hang n.
<petepiano1960> I have a launchpad account linked to a different email address (my work address).
<petepiano1960> don't think I have another launchpad account.
<pleia2> so you'll either want to use that account to edit the wiki, or create another launchpad account to link with your ubuntu one account
<pleia2> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/WikiGuide/Registration <-- some instructions about doing this
<pleia2> thanks for being patient, I'll follow up on the ticket once we get you sorted (just dug it up, it's from May of 2014)
<petepiano1960> lovely. will try one or the other a bit later. need to go and make supper now.
<petepiano1960> nice to get back into using irssi as well - been a few years!
<pleia2> enjoy
<pleia2> yay :)
<petepiano1960> Yay - that was the solution.
<petepiano1960> Logged into the launchpad account and I can now see the edit button.
<pleia2> glad to hear it, sorry for all the trouble
<petepiano1960> Thanks for the help.
<petepiano1960> Heh - no need to apologise.
<petepiano1960> Would it be useful to add something to the wiki editing page about that ?
<pleia2> we include it on the Registration page
<pleia2> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/WikiGuide/Registration
<pleia2> but a lot of folks can't find that, not sure how to make it more discoverable
<pleia2> just updated the ticket with Canonical, so hopefully they can look at it again
<petepiano1960> What about adding something to the page that comes up when you click on 'Login' (the Personal Data Request page) ?
<petepiano1960> BTW - edited the Zenbook Prime help page now as well.  A good days work. ;-)
<pleia2> perhaps, if the sysadmins can't get to the bottom of the actual problem, that may help folks find their way
<belkinsa> petepiano1960, do you have a launchpad account?
<belkinsa> Oh, I see.
<belkinsa> Nevermind.
<petepiano1960> belkinsa: yeah - i had an Ubuntu One account and a Launchpad account - the Ubuntu One login didn't work. The Launchpad one was perfect.
#ubuntu-doc 2016-01-04
<pleia2> help.ubuntu.com/community/ is cleaned up but in lock down at the moment to halt the spam problem, I'll send a more formal report to the list once I get the response from IS (we were just chatting on IRC)
<pleia2> then we can talk about where to go from here
#ubuntu-doc 2016-01-05
<pmatulis> are we having a meeting today?
<pleia2> I have things to talk about, but I have to whisk my kitty off to the vet :(
<Linux-Neophyte> I'm reading some literature on the documentation team and there are some broken links on the website. Where do I report them?
<Linux-Neophyte> The link embedded into Ubuntu Documentation Contributors on the webpage https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/Organization is broken.
<pmatulis> no need. i corrected the wiki
#ubuntu-doc 2016-01-06
<knome> i've sent a mail about the future of the community help wiki, i would encourage everybody to give feedback and discuss the issue on the thread
<knome> and by feedback and discussion i mean actually saying something that is not said, and trying to get forward with the issue
<pleia2> knome: thanks
#ubuntu-doc 2017-01-08
<mcafeemedia> Anyone active atm?
<mcafeemedia> Well when someone sees this, the help.ubuntu.com/community/SurroundSound page links to porn or somekind of adware b/c of a broken link under the "Enabling Surround Sound" heading the automaticable link
<mcafeemedia> has been taken over by a malicious site
#ubuntu-doc 2018-01-01
<hp732m> goog day....
<hp732m> I have a question
<hp732m> about the docs
<hp732m> ubuntu-docs
<pleia2> hi hp732m
<hp732m> hi pleia2
<pleia2> there are translations done on the Ubuntu documentation, you want to visit https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/Translation
<pleia2> the translations team has discussions on this mailing list: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-translators and many languages have their own localized mailing lists as well
<pleia2> https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/Ubuntu-es-l10n may be of interest to you
<hp732m> okl, let me see the information
<hp732m> thanks
<pleia2> you're welcome :)
#ubuntu-doc 2018-01-05
<apb1963> Anyone know where I can find current documentation on setting up a NIC as an Access Point for 16.04?  What I've seen looks to be either totally or at least partially out of date.
<apb1963> I need the server version that doesn't require a GUI to do it.
<apb1963> This appears to be a reasonably decent write up (but still needs validation), but then it's not Ubuntu docs.  https://askubuntu.com/questions/180733/how-to-setup-an-access-point-mode-wi-fi-hotspot/180734#180734
