#ubuntu-devel 2004-12-20
<mjg59> Ah
<mjg59> 2.6.9 has better USB suspend/resume
<mjg59> Should probably still unload them, though
<bob2> ah
<bob2> will that block if any usb stuff is in use?
<chrisa> There's usually a problem on wakeup if usb was loaded and a device was removed between sleep and resume
<mjg59> Shouldn't
<bob2> hm, right, so it's a good idea to detach stuff anyway
<bob2> I'll try fabio's new 2.6.9 in the morn
* Kamion ponders figuring out the linux-meta build system
<Kamion> call me bored
<bob2> I figured that when I saw you looking for typoes in the wiki :)
<Kamion> well, we were kinda collectively going through the quotes
<Mithrandir> Kamion: you're not considering just going to bed? :)
<bob2> I was trying to capture the accent
<Kamion> bob2: mind you, you're subscribed to Quotes, a fine one you are to talk :)
<Kamion> Mithrandir: soon ...
<bob2> poorly, of course
<Kamion> bob2: yeah, Scott told me and changed it back
* mjg59 watches video blow up again
<mjg59> I'm really not sure that I understand this
<Keybuk> so, you don't want me to run this then? :)
<mjg59> Hrm. If I cat something into stdin and then read from it, read should stop on the EOF, right?
<Mithrandir> like cat foo | while read thing; do .. ?
<mjg59> No, into a C program
<mjg59> And it works now.
<mjg59> Hrmph.
<Keybuk> depends whether the shell actually closes stdin or not
<Mithrandir> mjg59: cat foo | c-program-which-does-read?
<mjg59> Yeah
<Mithrandir> read in said c program will return zero when EOF is detected.
* lamont_r sleeps
<bob2> good idea
<mjg59> ARGH.
<mjg59> There's a maximum length on environment variables?
<Keybuk> mjg59, UNIX; UNIX, mjg59.  I'm sure you'll be friends.
<mjg59> Keybuk: Right.
<mjg59> Keybuk: Can you grab http://www.codon.org.uk/
<mjg59> Keybuk: Can you grab http://www.codon.org.uk/~mjg59/tmp/vbestate
<mjg59> And then try VBESTATE=`tempfile`; sudo vbestate save >$VBESTATE; sudo video_post; sudo vbestate restore <$VBESTATE; rm $VBESTATE
<Keybuk> want me to grab the former or the latter?
<Keybuk> I have enough bandwidth <g>
<mjg59> The latter
<Keybuk> in a console
<mjg59> I don't have enough bandwidth :p
<mjg59> Yaeh, console
<Keybuk> back after the system crash and reboot then
<mjg59> ?
<mjg59> Heh
<Keybuk> ....where do I get "video_post" from ?
<mjg59> Oh, right. use vm86_video_post
<thom> mjg59: scott's singing that song again
<mjg59> Haha
<mjg59> Is he using a framebuffer?
<thom> no
<mjg59> Hrmph
<thom> <Keybuk> do I need one?
<mjg59> Nope
<mjg59> Works better without
<thom> FSVO works :-)
<mjg59> His is the only machine I've found where it breaks this badly
<thom> he's closed his laptop and is sulking now ;-)
<mjg59> Scott's laptop is broken in a wide variety of amusing ways
<thom> including the STUPIDLY PLACED LID SWITCH
<mjg59> Anyway, we can do this from userspace without using X
<mjg59> So that's good enough
<thom> anyway
* thom &|
<thom> gnight
<shaya> anyone know if there's a linux-restricted-modules to go w/ the 2.6.9 kernel floating around somewhere?
<Kamion> shaya: not done yet AFAIK
<Kamion> it's on daniels' to-do list
<Kamion> http://people.ubuntu.com/~daniels/l-r-m/ has preliminary bits it seems
<Kamion> dunno what state they're in though; they're from six days ago
<shaya> hmm
<shaya> splitting the packages up?
<Kamion> shaya: don't think so?
<Kamion> doesn't look split up to me
<mirak> there is a bug with gnome-menus
<shaya> is there a way to make esd start wrapped by aoss?
<mjg59> I've managed to get my X session entertainingly broken
<mjg59> Ok, that seems to approximately work
<mjg59> I've added a new, heavily crack-laden acpi-support package to www.srcf.ucam.org/~mjg59/laptpos/
<mjg59> Make that www.srcf.ucam.org/~mjg59/laptops/
<shaya> mjg59: where's the changelog?
<mjg59> shaya: In the package
<shaya> mjg59: but what about us who dont want to install it to see it
<mjg59> shaya: You can extract the control archive
<shaya> for just look at the .tar.gz like I just did
<shaya> s/for/or/
<mjg59> Yes, since it's a Debian-native package
<jdodson> knock, knock.
<lifeless> daniels: tarball time methinks.. please
<daniels> lifeless: ok
<thom> marning
<daniels> thom: last night I just got back and basically collapsed, sorry
<thom> no worries
<thom> figured that was the case
<thom> i have new GROOVY graphs
<Mithrandir> url?
<daniels> thom: are they also sexy?
<thom> www.planetarytramp.net/bootchart/bootchart-20041208-2219.png
<bob2> mjg59: massive amounts of sleep love now I disabled ehci_hcd
<bob2> it also reminds me that daniel had an oops when suspending while copying data to a usb2 disk
<daniels> thom: .11/~daniels/
<carlos> fabbione: https://bugzilla.ubuntu.com/show_bug.cgi?id=2197
<daniels> thom: (Xorg and i810_drv.o)
<fabbione> bob2: that's a problem in the scsi layer
<fabbione> we already have the fix
<thom> daniels: nod
<thom> daniels: what i have is all ready to upload,pretty much :-)
<bob2> fabbione: in -3?
<daniels> thom: nice!
<bob2> pimpalicious
<daniels> thom: what're the changes thus far?
<thom> daniels: well, depmod might need some cleaning ;-)
<daniels> oooo, I see readahead
<bob2> someone needs to unfuck gnome's hoary so I can dist-upgrade ;)
<thom> daniels: check out the vicious readahead in parallel with hotplug :-)
<daniels> yeah, maybe the whole 'sh -x' thing might need to change ;)
<daniels> thom: yeah, that's awesome :)
<daniels> wtf is hwclock spinning so much for, tho?
<Keybuk> that's how it works
<Mithrandir> thom: nice
<daniels> Keybuk: oh?
<thom> hwclock spins on the cpu until the end of the second
<daniels> thom: can we defer cupsys to 21?
<Keybuk> gnome-cups-icon in user's session
<daniels> thom: i reckon if we move it to 21 and you drop in the new X stuff, we can get it 40, or sub-409
<daniels> Keybuk: so that will absolutely refuse to turn up if cupsys isn't up?
<thom> i think so
<thom> per user cups love! ;-)
<Keybuk> exactly, so if cups turns up a second later, you get no cups icon
<daniels> mmm, that would be ill
<daniels> thom: losing postfix and a2 will obviously be a win also
<daniels> thom: also, is it worth reading Xorg ahead?
<daniels> thom: -rw-r--r--  1 daniels daniels 14M 2004-12-09 09:29 /home/daniels/public_html/xorg-trace
<thom> daniels: yeah, intend to
<thom> oh, sweet
<thom> can you put that somewhere?
<thom> i really need to trace gdmgreeter too, or will that be in the trace?
<daniels> thom: ... /home/daniels/public_html ...
<daniels> thom: gdmgreeter isn't in there, no, I'll trace it later
<thom> oh, duh
<thom> thanks
<daniels> np
<daniels> i'm doing one with -e trace=file now tho
<daniels> thom: xorg-trace-file
<thom> i did trace=open which was not quite right i guess
<thom> daniels: that has gdmgreeter? sweet
<daniels> argh, WHY ARE WE STATTING ALL THE FILES
<daniels> not with gdmgreeter
<thom> oh, right
<daniels> wow, it's psychopathic about /proc/bus/pci/devices
<daniels> and stats all the drivers again ...
<daniels> what a hog
<daniels> it's statting all the files in a loop.
<fabbione> ahahaha
<daniels> daniels@catsby:~/canonical/gdm/gdm-2.6.0.4% grep radeon_drv.o ~/public_html/xorg-trace-file | wc -l
<daniels> 41
<daniels> that's forty-one accesses to a driver I'm not even loading.
<thom> yeah
<fabbione> Kamion: here?
<haggai> wooerwewrrewrewrew~.
<haggai> uh
<Kamion> fabbione: yo
<haggai> sorry, my network got confused during suspend/resume
<fabbione> Kamion 
<fabbione> do we officially support pegagos2?
<haggai> ..and the suspend took 3 minutes BTW
<daniels> why does X use regexs?
<Kamion> fabbione: not yet, no
<fabbione> Kamion: i am going to kill that driver temporary. removing the name from d-i is enough fo make d-i happy again?
<Kamion> fabbione: I should think we'll only do it if it's low-effort or contributed; I do plan to see if I can make it work in my spare time though
<Kamion> fabbione: put a "-" in front of it in the d-i file
<Kamion> that makes the driver optional
<fabbione> Kamion: ok thanks
<fabbione> i will give it another hour love before reverting
<Kamion> ok
<fabbione> but it doesn't compile yet.
<daniels> four loops that all read drivers in!  wa-hey!
<thom> daniels: that Xorg took way longer but it still has all the printing
<fabbione> daniels: taht could be the new autodetection thingy
<thom> added 8 seconds
<Mithrandir> thom: what do you use for generating those graphs?
<thom> http://www.klika.si/ziga/bootchart/
<thom> run from the top of inittab
<Mithrandir> hm, have to install java, then
<daniels> thom: er, yeah, the printing shouldn't have any performance impact
<daniels> thom: really??
<thom> Mithrandir: i've just been uploading the logs ;-)
<Mithrandir> heh, that should work as well, yes.
<thom> i'm building it now before the poor guy kills me
<thom> or trying to 
<thom> gcj 3.3 appears not to have java.util.logging.Logger
<thom> did i mention i hate java?
<Keybuk> many times :)
<Keybuk> cupsys_1.1.20final+rc1-10ubuntu5_source.changes ACCEPTED
<Keybuk> wow, a mail from katie that's actually *intended* for me ... :o)
<thom> heh
<bob2> jdub: thom considered using the windows firefox icon instead of the plain planet one?
<jdub> bob2: that's a trademark issue more than a platform issue :)
<bob2> oh, suck
<bob2> that's highly obnoxious
* Keybuk giggles at lamont's attempt to speed postfix up
<Keybuk> s/postfix/nullmailer/ -- yay, five whole seconds
* lamont_r bitchslaps Keybuk 
<bob2> jdub: what does the HIG say about "escape" in a dialog?  it should exit?
<daniels> daniels@catsby:~/canonical/xorg/arch/pristine/xorg-6.8.1/build-tree/xc/programs/Xserver% grep radeon_drv xorg.trace | wc -l
<daniels> 0
<Keybuk> bob2: escape tends to be bound to cancel, but I don't think the HIG is specific about it
<Keybuk> it doesn't make a huge amount of sense in instant-apply dialogs
<bob2> just talking to a windows user who's pointing out possibly confusing things
<jdub> bob2: there's an argument about it going on. :)
<Keybuk> I think the general theory is that if you dialog *has* Escape/Cancel functionality, you bind the key to the Cancel button ... e.g. the Open/Save dialogs
<Keybuk> but Instant-Apply dialogs which only have Close use Enter, as you can't escape from them
<Keybuk> ...though a argh-put-it-all-back-how-it-was escape functionality for i-a dialogs would be cute
<Keybuk> but Jeff might beat me up for saying that
<Keybuk> :p
<pitti> jdub, thom: we need a name for this hardware detection thingy
<pitti> jdub, thom: what about hwfu?
<bob2> hardwarepants!
<pitti> NOOOOOOO
<fabbione> Kamion: i got the driver to compile
<Mithrandir> chainsaw
<Kamion> fabbione: bonus
<Mithrandir> on the basis of it ripping through your hardware.
<fabbione> Kamion: :-)
<pitti> "Ubuntu Unified Python Hardware Detection and XMLification Extensible Framework"
<pitti> (SCNR)
* lamont_r waits for jdub/mdz to decide whether to put efibootmgr or elilo into main
<lamont_r> pitti: UUPHDaXEF?
<pitti> lamont_r: easy to pronounce, right?
<lamont_r> maybe for you Germans...
<azeem> at least for those playing in humpa-bands
<Mithrandir> that could almost have been one of my hostnames.
<Keybuk> Python Hardware Autodetection Tool
<lamont_r> Keybuk: PyHAT?
<Keybuk> PHAT!
<pitti> Keybuk: this sounds good
<lamont_r> Pedantic HW detection tool?
<lamont_r> shouldn't really have the language name in the name.
<pitti> Keybuk: btw, it does not really detect hw, it only calls several backends which do and unifies them into an XML output
<Keybuk> so basically it converts /sys into XML?
<pitti> Keybuk: not only /sys, but also /proc/foo, dmidecode, hal, whatever
<pitti> Keybuk: I wrote a plugin architecture to make it expandable easily
<ogra> see here, it uses the ouptunt of the named tools: https://ubuntulinux.org/wiki/HardwareDatabase 
<Mithrandir> why XML?
<Mithrandir> xml is so icky
<Mithrandir> gives me scratches
<pitti> Keybuk: this is supposed to unify d-i's, X's and base's HW detection
<pitti> Mithrandir: easy to throw into dbs
<pitti> Mithrandir: easy to process
<pitti> Mithrandir: standard format, works with many tools
<pitti> Mithrandir: why _not_ XML? What to take instead?
<Mithrandir> pitti: have you worked much with XML?
<Keybuk> why base's?
<pitti> Mithrandir: enough to like it :-)
<Mithrandir> but not enough to really, really dislike it, I understand.
<Keybuk> the kernel does hardware detection in base
<Mithrandir> (:
<pitti> Keybuk: it's not really kernel detection
<pitti> Keybuk: it's supposed to become a large hardware database
<pitti> Keybuk: devices which are supported/not supported by Ubuntu
<Keybuk> right
<pitti> Keybuk: it could say "this laptop works fine", "S3 does not work with this BIOS", etc.
<pitti> Keybuk: also it could help X configuration, like "widescreen is not detected on this laptop"
<Keybuk> *nods*
<thom> pitti: ZDHW
<pitti> -> yesterday's bof
<pitti> thom: zero day hard ware?
<fabbione> lamont_r, elmo: 
<fabbione> sparcbuildd@vultus5:~$ wanna-build --list=needs-build
<fabbione> Total 0 package(s)
<ogra> zero data
<pitti> thom: what does "zero day" mean?
<fabbione> this is golden :-)
<pitti> fabbione: congrats
<thom> zerodayhardwarez
<fabbione> we only need the last X from danicrack to give back a few packages
<lamont_r> pitti: in theory, the answers you want are there the day your hardware is purchasable
<thom> pitti: like zero day warez or sploits
<sivang> fabbione : recalling you asked for my key, aren't we going to have a key signing party?
<pitti> sivang: tomorrow evening
<lamont_r> fabbione: is that phase2, and just main, or did it finally finish universe?
<ogra> sivang: dont forget to print your keylist !
<sivang> ogra : I won't! Thanks for reminding me :-))
* lamont_r upgrades, prepares to need to track seb128 down....
<fabbione> lamont_r: phase2 main
<lamont_r> fabbione: nice
<Treenaks> lamont_r: just shout his name very, very loudly
<fabbione> sivang: yes.. i understood you were going to leave before that
* daniels ditches a lazy 3500 stat() calls from X startup.
<fabbione> sivang: but @ the keysign is ok with me
<Treenaks> daniels: uh.. how many?
<fabbione> daniels: i need X sometime soon
<seb128> lamont_r, just take a ticket and wait for your turn, a lot of people want to track me down first apparently :p
* lamont_r curses at *&)%&*_(^( metacity again
<daniels> Treenaks: three thousand five hundred
<daniels> fabbione: will upload before lunch
<fabbione> daniels: thanks
<daniels> also just ditched 150 open()s.
<Treenaks> daniels: ho-ly cow on crack
<daniels>   5702 /home/daniels/public_html/xorg-trace-file
<daniels>   1904 xorg.trace-1040
<daniels> (before and after, looking at file accesses)
<fabbione> hmmmm
<lamont_r> daniels: and 150 closes? or were the opens all failures?
<daniels> lamont_r: 150 open/close cycles
<daniels> NOT ANY MORE
<bob2> wooohoo
<root_> fabbione: aren't there any 686 linux-restricted-kernel for 2.69?
<fabbione> root_: daniels is working on l-r-m
<fabbione> if they are not there, they are not there yet
<fabbione> patience... it's hoary
<ogra> wow, 2.69 ? thats nice :)
<root_> yes
<root_> I love to wait
<root_> thx for ur info
<jdub> Keybuk: i have no opinion on the dialogue escape stuff
<Keybuk> I think the current mix is about right ... I don't think I've ever hit Escape and have nothing happen, yet I'm sure I do hit Escape from time to time
<Keybuk> so it must work where I expect it to
<sivang> fabbione : I'll be here tommorow eveing  , I guess I missunderstood.
<jdub> lamont: ooh, what were the postfix startup fixes?
<Keybuk> :0,$s/^/#/
<sivang> ogra : how do I install the naked lady artwork? :)
* sivang didn't know it even existed till seeing it on ogra's laptop
<Mithrandir> sivang: install ubuntu-calendar
<Mithrandir> and then change to "ubuntu monthly calendar" background
<Keybuk> thom: \o/ udev 04[78]  includes the udevd-as-hotplug patches
<sivang> Mithrandir : thaks alot!
<Keybuk> 048 being a brown-paper-bag "oops, that didn't build" of 047
<Keybuk>  - wait_for_sysfs is now gone.
<Keybuk>  Oh, happy day...
* Keybuk will play with that this afternoon, then
<Kamion> Keybuk: rock!
<daniels> wooooo
<thom> GAR
<thom> fabbione: !!!!!!
<thom> 11:11 /tmp% sudo invoke-rc.d dbus-1 restart
<thom>  * Restarting system message bus...
<thom>  * Stopping Hardware abstraction layer:                                  [ ok ] 
<thom>  * Starting Hardware abstraction layer:
<thom> 11:12:05.020 [W]  hald.c:302: Your kernel does not support capabilities; some features will not be available.                               
<Kamion> fun
<thom> ii  linux-image-2.6.9-1-686        2.6.9-3
<pitti> thom: you know how to beat up :-)
<Kamion> hm, I wonder if waldi was mistaken when I was talking to him about multi-component d-i Packages files
<Kamion> I don't see where the problem would be ...
* elmo quietly adds a "hard loop doing nothing for 29 seconds" init.d script to ed
<daniels> yet more proof that ed is crap
<fabbione> thom: doh!
<pitti> thom: works fine on linux-image-2.6.9-1-powerpc
* Mithrandir twaps the gw
<Treenaks> ah so it's not just me
<fabbione> thom: let me check here
* Keybuk is amused that Mithrandir it telling people on a remote-server that he's tapping the gateway for not working
<fabbione> thom: no errors here
<Keybuk> and then realises, that as he can see Mithrandir doing that, the problem is more subtle than the line just dropping
<Treenaks> dns crap
<Keybuk> no, isn't dns
<Treenaks> no?
<thom> no
<Treenaks> what is it then?
<Kamion> oh, but I can't test because there's no l-r-m 2.6.9 yet, gah
<Keybuk> new connections in general aren't happening
<daniels> seems to be drop SYN on the floor
<thom> routing new connections go boom
<fabbione> Kamion: ask daniles :-)
<daniels> Kamion: bleh
<Treenaks> even connections to the proxy?
<Keybuk> isn't just SYN
<Keybuk> ICMP isn't happening either
<thom> ISP breakage
<Keybuk> ARP-fuckage?
<Mithrandir> thom: NAT table overflow?
<elmo> it did this yesterday too
<Keybuk> back now, anyway
<elmo> it'll resolve itself in a bit probably
<seb128> lamont_r, #4495 ?
* lamont_r goes to look
<seb128> lamont_r, on which arch ?
<bob2> "the ISP died for our sins"
<seb128> lamont_r, according to the build log that's ok (out of ia64)
* daniels shakes his fist at joke stealers.
<lamont_r> seb128: yeah - ia64.. but the error sure looked generic...
* lamont_r runs a build on his machine
<lamont_r> jdub: postfix goes kinda paranoid at startup... I commented out the checks. :-)
<lamont_r> seb128: it's because xorg hasn't built on ia64 yet.
<seb128> lamont_r, so, I'm supposed to do something with the build-dep ? or we just wait ?
<jdub> lamont_r: hrm. would wietse kill you?
<lamont_r> jdub: it's ubuntu-only. :-(
<lamont_r> seb128: we should beat on doko
<seb128> ok :)
* lamont_r will deal with the bug.
<seb128> thanks
<jdub> lamont_r: is it sane on servers?
<lamont_r> jdub: probably more so than on desktops.
<jdub> oh?
<lamont_r> servers tend to shutdown nicely.
<jdub> hrrrmmmmm
<jdub> but when they haven't, you want them to start up paranoid :)
<lamont_r> but, yeah. it should really schedule a postfix check run for some point in the future...
<lamont_r> hrm... cron.daily here we come.. :-)
<lamont_r> jdub: it's the part that runs through the entirety of /var/spool/postfix and does sanity checks on it.
<jdub> yeah
<lamont_r> so yeah, it should really be scheduled to happen sometime..
<elmo> kamion/fabbione/mdz/anyonewhocares: anastacia wants to demote *2.6.8.1* to universe - ok?
<lamont_r> woot!
<jdub> lamont_r: you can do that at any time, right?
<lamont_r> jdub: exactly
<Kamion> elmo: might be nice to wait for 2.6.9 l-r-m
<Kamion> otherwise *shrug* as far as I'm concerned
<doko> lamont_r: I'll do the merge today. found the bug, testing a fix
<lamont_r> I suppose it's possible that email that was in the system _might_ wind up being magically deferred until it is run.
<jdub> lamont_r: maybe start postfix and add another init at the end for the check?
<lamont_r> jdub: I like that...
<lamont_r> end of rc2?
<jdub> i guess
<daniels> lamont_r: um, dude, xorg should've built on ia64 long ago
<lamont_r> daniels: should is the operative word there.
<daniels> thom: /~daniels/gdm-greeter-strace
<daniels> lamont_r: anything I need to do?
<daniels> thom: (.11)
<thom> nice
<lamont_r> daniels: help doko? :-)
<lamont_r> glibc is ftbfs, doko's going to upload a fix soon
<thom> i just fixored my hdparm settings (all this was with default hdparm so far)
<lamont_r> then all will proceed according to the master plan.
<jdub> thom: eeek!
<fabbione> Mithrandir: swig1.3-1.3.22 is a FTBFS on 4/5 arches
<Mithrandir> fabbione: ew.
<daniels> lamont_r: ah, right
<fabbione> Mithrandir: mind to take a look to it since you did the last uplaod?
<Mithrandir> sure
<fabbione> thanks
<Mithrandir> don't we have gcj on all arches?
<fabbione> i think it's related to the version
<lamont_r> Mithrandir: gcc-3.4 is still waiting for a working binutils on i386, which is tcl8.4 bug
<doko> Mithrandir: shoud be there for all arhcs.
<Mithrandir> fabbione: it's really depwait, then
<Mithrandir> lamont_r: it ftbfs on !i386
<lamont_r> that's because i386 builds arch-all, and therefore life sucks on !i386
<kanto_so> cough, cough too freezing here, a gift for all developers in X-mas, work and listen to musics from LimeWire, I love u guys all
<kanto_so> http://sales.limewire.com/040903/gc59uxYlbhPoxaBKtyVc3k2dKuillFxf/download/LimeWireLinux.bin
<Mithrandir> lamont: ok, so it should magically fix itself in a little while, or you need to tickle it?
<lamont_r> I think I have to kick it.
<mjg59> bob2: Ok, my latest acpi-support stuff unloads USB modules
<Mithrandir> is haggai around still?
<kanto_so> mjg59, are u Herbert Xu?
<Mithrandir> kanto_so: no, he's Matthew Garret
<Mithrandir> Xu doesn't irc.
<lamont_r> Keybuk: got a second?
<Keybuk> sure
* lamont_r wanders
<Keybuk> you don't have five though :p
<fabbione> mjg59: does that require more kernel love?
<kanto_so> sorry
<haggai> Mithrandir: here
<Kamion> kanto_so: /whois is your friend
<Mithrandir> haggai: did you or rene get anywhere with the ooo-vfs dependency we discussed?
<bob2> mjg59: woo, cool
<haggai> Mithrandir: uuh, what was I supposed to do?
<Mithrandir> haggai: make ooo-bin not depend on gnomevfs. :)
<haggai> Mithrandir: ah, _rene_'s dirty hack :)  I think he looked at it but I don't remember seeing any checkin
<Mithrandir> I think you possibly punted it to _rene_ 
<Mithrandir> ok
<Mithrandir> _rene_: around?
<haggai> no, he'll be at college
<Mithrandir> ok.
<Mithrandir> I'll take a look, then.. *grumble*  ooo takes _forever_ to build.
<mjg59> fabbione: Nope
<haggai> Mithrandir: if you want to look then lets discuss it together
<mjg59> fabbione: One thing it /might/ be worth looking at in future is the experimental USB suspend/resume support
<haggai> Mithrandir: where are you?
<haggai> mjg59: the network module unload stuff didn't work for my card because there is no driver entry in sys for the card
<lamont_r> jdub: on further thought and discussion...  I'm going to redo that a bit...
<Mithrandir> haggai: hack room.
<Mithrandir> haggai: you're downstairs?
<haggai> Mithrandir: yes
<Mithrandir> I'll come down
<haggai> ok
<Keybuk> thom: it looks like simply issuing udevstart in the udev init script is sufficient to cause hotplug to happen \o/
<mjg59> haggai: Hm. How so?
<thom> Keybuk: score!
<elmo> GOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAL
<elmo> doh.
<elmo> AL
<mjg59> haggai: Built in or PCMCIA?
<jdub> lamont_r: :-)
<robtaylor> hmm
<robtaylor> so. what are the plans for tonight? i'll be getting into mataro some point this evening :)
<fabbione> mjg59: yes.. i saw the option but the help text scared me a bit to enable it right now
<fabbione> is mdz close to anybody?
* Keybuk remembers to remove udevsend from /etc/hotplug.d ...ho-gum
<Treenaks> Keybuk: it's better to remember it now than at some other time at which we'd have to hit you...
<Keybuk> *whimper* don't hit me ... I'm fragile
<Keybuk> ok...
<silbs> fabbione: I'm sitting next to mdz - need him?
<fabbione> silbs: can you ask him to join irc when he has time please?
<fabbione> hey mdz
<fabbione> mdz: the scsi fix appears not to be the only one needed
<fabbione> willy has been locking at it too
<fabbione> i might as well ask him later today (when he is awake) what's the best one around
<fabbione> anyway the patch we found is applied
<mdz> ok
<mdz> I am in the middle of a BOF at the moment
<fabbione> ok
<daniels> Keybuk: how'd it go?
<Keybuk> ok ... so it helps if I actually start udevd in the initscript
<Keybuk> though I don't see why udevstart isn't starting it
<rburton> daniels: so the fd.o bugzilla isn't mailing me when there are changes to bugs i'm CCd on
<daniels> rburton: interesting, it should be
<daniels> @burtonini?
<rburton> yeah
<daniels> daniels@gabe:~% sudo grep burtonini /var/log/mail.log
<daniels> Dec  8 12:35:48 gabe postfix/smtp[5691] : 6B9659E8CE: to=<ross@burtonini.com>, relay=mail.burtonini.com[195.54.228.42] , delay=4, status=sent (250 Ok: queued as C4AF7581A)
<seb128> daniels, just use "ross" you will get a list of the names matching it
<daniels> i count 4 mails that have gone to you in the last 24h
<seb128> ouips
<seb128> nm
<daniels> seb128: yeah, and all the spam that uses generic names
<daniels> Dec  9 00:42:42 gabe postfix/smtp[1383] : B793B9E7C7: to=<ross@keithp.com>, relay=mail.keithp.com[63.227.221.253] , delay=14, status=bounced (host mail.keithp.com[63.227.221.253]  said: 550 Unknown local part ross in <ross@keithp.com> (in reply to RCPT TO command))
<rburton> daniels: argh
<rburton> thom: ping?
<daniels> rburton: he's next to me
<rburton> daniels: poke him and tell him to check amnesiac
<haggai> ok folks, quick survey please
<haggai> run: dmesg | grep "Simple Boot"
<haggai> if you do not see a message like
<haggai> Simple Boot Flag at 0x<foo> set to 0x1
<haggai> you are not benefiting from the fastboot spec and we'd like to know why
<Mithrandir> : tfheen@thosu ~ > dmesg | grep "Simple Boot"
<Mithrandir> Simple Boot Flag at 0x35 set to 0x1
<Mithrandir> X40 love!
<haggai> the 0x1 means you have a PNP Bios and everything is fine and fastboot will happen next time you boot
<daniels> Mithrandir: simple boot?
<lamont_r> mdz?
<daniels> Simple Boot Flag at 0x35 set to 0x1
<daniels> x40 4 lyf
<Mithrandir> daniels: see what haggai wrote.
<fabbione> x40 is the gayest lappy i have ever seen
<lamont_r> daniels: you know that you're going to fall in love with a new model long before you die...
<fabbione> even daniels has one...
<fabbione> i mean
<mdz> lamont_r: ?
<Treenaks> hmm... mozilla people are _weird_
<Treenaks> http://forums.mozillazine.org/viewtopic.php?t=5306
<lamont_r> elilo Depends: efibootmgr.
<lamont_r> so I think we seed elilo, and it all works out from there...
<ogra> haggai: if your system runs already a little loger it should be: cat  /var/log/dmesg | grep "Simple Boot"
<rburton> what's fastboot?
<haggai> ogra: heh, good point
<lamont_r> rburton: that's where things boot fast.
<rburton> lamont_r: aah i see ;)
<haggai> rburton: tells the BIOS that everything's good and not to bother checking/initing the hardware -> faster boot
<lamont_r> rburton: effort is being made to speed up the users boot experience
<mdz> lamont_r: ok, sounds good.  go ahead and add it to the seed
<lamont_r> will do.
<rburton> haggai: oh nice. is this only in hoary?
<lamont_r> rburton: as opposed to?
<rburton> warty and sid
<lamont_r> dunno about sid, but warty is _DONE_.
<rburton> yeah, i was wondering if fastboot was in warty, or can i turn it on, or what
* Mithrandir hugs emacs' diff-mode
<mjg59> ARGH.
* mjg59 discovers that his PCI ID stuff is /still/ wrong
<lamont_r> the hardware/bios fastboot is there regardless of the OS...  setting it is the only question
<fabbione> mdz: what is the bug number you opened on bugzilla for the scsi stuff?
<rburton> lamont_r: ah i see.
<haggai> rburton: that's what I want to know.. how widespread is the support and where it is not already working
<haggai> rburton: if you get the message then you are ok
<rburton> i seeee
<rburton> haggai: my X22 sets 0x35 to 0x1
<Mithrandir> haggai: wrapping one-line code in #ifdef USE_GNOMEVFS feels so useful. ;)
<thom> rburton: bugzilla on freedesktop sending bad headers
<rburton> thom: thanks
<haggai> Mithrandir: hehe
* rburton slaps daniels 
<rburton> thom: hadess mailed me last night too, can you grep for hadess? :)
<haggai> rburton: as I said, that's fine
<thom> rburton: daniels is gonna look when he stops playing with fonts, i think
* sid77 hi
<daniels> RESOLVED/WORKSFORME
<lamont_r> thom: ECHAN?
<lamont_r> in the other one, that is.
<daniels> thom: In-Reply-To: <bug-2039@bugs.freedesktop.org>
<daniels> thom: hth hand kthxbye
<mjg59> daniels: vm86-video-post now actually gets the PCI ID calculation right
<mjg59> I've still no idea why it fucks up on so many machines, though
<mjg59> daniels: But you should be able to disable VBERestore in X, I hope
<daniels> thom: should be a test comment flowing through now
<daniels> mjg59: how were you doing the pci id calculation?
<mjg59> daniels: Shifting one bit too far to the left
<Mithrandir> haggai: I should be able to rip out both the section below "hack" and most of the one after the next comment as well, right?
<mjg59> Which gave nice looking answers that were wrong
<mjg59> The answers now look ugly, but are right
<thom> lamont_r: ah, yeah
* daniels smashes another 900 file access from Xorg; down from ~5700 to 1093 on startup.
<daniels> rburton: thom and I are looking at it
<daniels>   5702 /home/daniels/public_html/xorg-trace-file
<daniels>   1093 xorg.trace-1303
* daniels giggles.
<rburton> that's just silly
<lamont_r> rburton: that it was that wasteful before, certainly. :-)
<lamont_r> although I have to wonder exactly what daniels is ripping out.......
<rburton> lamont_r: i think before he started he put some loops in which opened files repeatedly so it looks good when he removes them
* thom giggles at rburton 
<lamont_r> heh
* sid77 re
<seb128> daniels, should I open a bug (as a reminder) against X.org about that m"t"'$tm resolution on my laptop or that's ok and you keep it in mind ?
<Treenaks> seb128: m"t"'$tm resolution?
<seb128> Treenaks, don't bother, that's for daniels 
<Keybuk> hmm... nothing I'm poking into udevsend seems to be coming out in udev
<daniels> seb128: i'll close it as a duplicate of 'i855: catch-all for terrible VBE implementations'
<daniels> seb128: it's really not something we can fix, sadly
<daniels> not without NDAs from 40 different BIOS vendors
<daniels> lamont_r: silly sleeps from i810, and kicking the current loader in the testicles
<seb128> is there any way to workaround it on my box with this 855resolution stuff ? 
<daniels> seb128: apparently, but if it doesn't work ... i don't know
<seb128> ok, thanks
<seb128> I'll google a bit about it, perhaps there is some useful pointer hidden somewhere :)
<daniels> sorry I'm not more useful
<seb128> np, not your fault
<Keybuk> (yay at disgusting sandwiches ... FOOD FIGHT!)
<bob2> lunch was one thing oxford did well
<Keybuk> ENOSUMMERPUDDING ?
<elmo> that and the Crowded House in the lobby
<bob2> don't dreaaaaaaaaaaaaaaam it's over
<plovs> mdz, did you report the bug to zwiki, if not i will
<daniels> goddamnit
<daniels> do not talk about summer pudding unless you are buying it for me
* Mithrandir wonders where the hidden speed_up_compile_immensely switch for OOo is.
<haggai> Mithrandir: yup
<haggai> Mithrandir: it's called DEB_BUILD_OPTIONS=ccache
<haggai> Mithrandir: can you punt me your mods over and I'll check them?  I could even test them against my prebuilt tree
<Mithrandir> just a sec
* Keybuk wonders where the hidden "make this work" switch is
<Mithrandir> haggai: http://err.no/tmp/rules and http://err.no/tmp/vfs-uno-uri.diff
<mjg59> daniels: Does dropping VBERestore significantly help things, then?
<daniels> mjg59: ah, right, heh.  i'd imagine we could ditch vberestore in that case, then.
<mjg59> I'll need a test machine to be sure of this, but I think it can probably be dropped if my stuff actually works
<mjg59> (which it seems to)
* sid77 re
<Mithrandir> haggai: *prod*
<Keybuk> syndicate udev: run_program: running /etc/hotplug.d/default/default.hotplug
<Keybuk> \o/
<thom> nice
<Mithrandir> thom/keybuk: could either of you prod haggai to look at his IRC screen?
<Keybuk> nowhere near him
<Mithrandir> k
<thom> Mithrandir: he's away from his laptop
<Mithrandir> how useless
<seb128> thom, where is everybody ?
<thom> "everybody"?
<seb128> 2 people in the BOF room atm
<seb128> where are you guys :)
<thom> daniels, mvo, me are in the downstairs room
<thom> quiet room in guess?
<seb128> probably yep
<Kamion> only three in the quiet room
<sjoerd> 6 in the hacking room...
<Keybuk> thom: did you know that hotplug doesn't invoke the hal or udev-fu when it starts?
<thom> Keybuk: how do you mean?
<Treenaks> should "dbus-monitor --system" work?
<Mithrandir> Treenaks: dbus-monitor is broken, iirc
<Keybuk> well, because it execs the agent directly it never runs anything else in /etc/hotplug.d
<Treenaks> Mithrandir: that explains it
<daniels> Dear Bong, 
<daniels> Your business with IBM Developer Kit for Linux, Java 2
<daniels>             Technology Edition is very important to us.  We are sorry that your 
<daniels> previous transaction with us did not go through.  We have fixed this 
<daniels> error in your account.  Please return to the IBM Developer Kit for Linux, Java 2
<daniels>             Technology Edition web site to resubmit 
<daniels> your transaction.  Thank you and sorry for the inconvenience.
<thom> rofl
<thom> Keybuk: hrm, interesting
<Keybuk> was the the Aieezheikawopostan one?
<daniels> Treenaks: in warty, maybe (probably not); in hoary, yes
<daniels> Mithrandir: works in hoary
<daniels> Keybuk: azerbaijan?
<daniels> yeah, that was azerbaijan
<daniels> they never mailed my so-called australian one, though
<daniels> (or was it US?)
<Treenaks> daniels: in hoary it's b0rken
<Treenaks> daniels: it tells me:
<Treenaks> 8094: arguments to dbus_connection_send_with_reply_and_block() were incorrect, assertion "(error) == NULL || !dbus_error_is_set ((error))" failed in file dbus-connection.c line 1999.
<Treenaks> This is normally a bug in some application using the D-BUS library.
<Treenaks> Failed to set up match "dbus-monitor": 
<lamont_r> Kamion: now we're up to not finding d-i modules:-)
<Mithrandir> rock, "Welkom bij Mozilla Thunderbird"
<trulux> doko, ping
<Mithrandir> Treenaks: I'd appreciate if you could test m-t-l-nl when it hits the archive (approx 30min to 1hour, I think.)
<Treenaks> Mithrandir: ok, I think
<thom> mjg59: dude, you gonna package netapplet 1.0?
<mjg59> thom: Oh, is it out?
<mjg59> It is. Hot damn.
<mjg59> Still without a changelog
<thom> i love answers like that
<thom> heh
* thom starts hacking
<mjg59> thom: Only difference to 0.99.4 seems to be gettext
<mjg59> Oh, and netline has been removed
<mjg59> Yeah, basically it's just translations between 0.99.4 and 1.0
<trulux> lamont, ping
<Keybuk> man... 14.8s -> 0.4s ... I RULE!
<Treenaks> Keybuk: 0.4s to generate an error message? :)
<Keybuk> nope, is actually loading all the PCI modules and stuff
<thom> DUDE
<ogra> Keybuk: you rule !
<rburton> Keybuk: hotplug?
<Keybuk> yeah
<rburton> rock
<rburton> i get totally bored when hotplug starts on my x22
<ogra> rburton: so get a faster laptop with less hw :-P
<rburton> ha
<ogra> :)
<lamont_r> trulux: yo
<trulux> hey lamont_r !
<trulux> lamont_r, i've got an ubuntu-running box
<trulux> P4, a lot of mem, 120G hd, only for Ubuntu and sarge
<trulux> lamont_r, i have a few questions about Ubuntu, mainly why fonts look weird in the crt screen
<trulux> i want to get a lcd panel for that box but still using a hp mx70
<lamont_r> those would be #ubuntu questions
<trulux> kay, then next questions about dev
<trulux> btw, my cd was broken and i had a real pain using it
<trulux> lamont_r, the selinux packages create conflicts with gnome
<trulux> tseng, ping
<lamont_r> bummer.  selinux isn't in main
<trulux> also, i think i'm going to send a bug report about adding some patches to the linux-sources
<trulux> and maybe about bootsplash, which i've made some optimized pkgs
<Kamion> we're not going to be using bootsplash.
<trulux> in the other hand, usb support seems broken in my box, my slim disk (ide-to-usb) doesn't work (it's just a simple usb-storage compliant dev)
<trulux> Kamion, why? it's eye-candy for new users
<Kamion> bootsplash broke our installer.
<Kamion> last time we tried this
<Kamion> we're doing a pure user-space solution instead
<Mithrandir> trulux: we'll use other, better crack
<fabbione> trulux: what kernel are you running?
<trulux> i mean not in the installer, i mean in the linux-sources pkgs
<Kamion> the installer uses the stock kernel; we are not going to change that, sorry
<trulux> fabbione, 2.6.8.1-p4-1 (my own)
<trulux> Kamion, ok
<fabbione> trulux: if it's broken why would you open a bug on our linux-source?
<trulux> bootsplash?
<trulux> no, it's about it
<fabbione> WONTFIX
<fabbione> bootsplash will stay outside the kernel
<trulux> i mean about other things, mainly security-related patches
<fabbione> trulux: such as which one?
<trulux> fabbione, kay, i'm not talking about it now
<fabbione> trulux: i am the temporary kernel maintainer
<trulux> fabbione, openswan ipsec stack
<fabbione> so either you tell me what is about
<fabbione> that's not security
<fabbione> these are enanchment
<trulux> grsecurity (when it comes available)
<trulux> fabbione, yep
<fabbione> but it's not security
<trulux> fabbione, let me find you the patches
<fabbione> ipsec is already in the kernel dude
<Mithrandir> ah, new X crack.
<fabbione> Mithrandir: yup
<fabbione> finally it will unlock a bunch of packages on sparc
* Kamion adds ia64 stuff to the seeds
* lamont_r ^5s Kamion 
<fabbione> Kamion: want to start adding sparc too?
<Mithrandir> lamont_r: what's the problem with mono stuff?
<trulux> fabbione, not the openswan stack
<trulux> kernel ipsec stack is different
<lamont_r> Mithrandir: source package?
<Mithrandir> lamont_r: mono
<lamont_r> 2.6 kernel openswan was using native kernel stuff (no patch), I thought
<Kamion> fabbione: will do later, want to check with elmo what'll happen if I seed sparc stuff though
<Mithrandir> lamont_r: unupgradeable since a few days, you mumbled "universe" when somebody talked about it two days ago
<lamont_r> Mithrandir: right.  let me check
<fabbione> lamont_r: so did I
<fabbione> Kamion: sure :-)
<fabbione> probably the implementation is different, but for christ sick the RFC's are the same
<fabbione> actually i should ask Iari about it
<lamont_r> Mithrandir: mcs is version 1.0.2, needs to be 1.0.4, it would appear.
<Mithrandir> lamont_r: ok, so Debian's broken as well?
<lamont_r> guess.
<lamont_r> sure looks that way
<lup|gone> daniels you there?
<daniels> lup|gone: sup
<lup|gone> I was looking at your bootcharts
<daniels> right
<lup|gone> and I wondered why like windows you can't start network stuff after X is started
<daniels> a large part of it is hostname changing, but we can hack around it
<daniels> we've been seriously considering it
<lup|gone> yeah
<lup|gone> seems like almost 10 sec
<lup|gone> the pc is doing almost nothing :s
<thom> with udevsend that becomes async
<sjoerd> thom: going to do ifup from dev.d ?
<thom> sjoerd: i think that's gonna be how it winds up, yeah
<sjoerd> nice
<thom> scott's boot currently is "interesting"
<Mithrandir> thom: how so?
<Treenaks> ja
<Treenaks> uh
<Treenaks> oops
<thom> Mithrandir: a stack of stuff now runs before their modules are loaded ;-)
<Mithrandir> heh
<lup|gone> does hotplug start the scripts parallel ?
<sjoerd> udevd doing hotplug stuff serializes the stuff that depends on eachother.. the rest runs parallel
<lup|gone> nice
<Mithrandir> elmo_away: please sync autofs
<Mithrandir> anybody know where elmo is?
<Kamion> Mithrandir: he's not feeling well; went to his room for a nap
<Mithrandir> ok
<Mithrandir> I guess saying "please sync" and assigning the bug to him ought to work, then.
<seb128> elmo_away, gnome2-user-docs sync please
* sjoerd goes to slay a kiwi
<Treenaks> sjoerd: do it on the wiki
<daniels>   1093 xorg.trace-1303
<daniels>    877 xorg.trace-1625
<bob2> hah
<daniels> that's a micro-optimisation at this point, but ber
* daniels goes looking for other optimisations.
<bob2> 20%!
<daniels> thom: .11/~daniels/Xorg, as usual
<thom> noice
<thom> gonna finish bootchart packaging
<thom> is there a "real" way of modifiying inittab?
<daniels> in postinst/whatever?
<thom> yeah
<daniels> 'echo'
<thom> i don't really want to just apply a patch in the postinst
<thom> but i guess i will
<daniels> and we ditch another 80 open()s (not stat()s) by sanitising font configuration
<lup|gone> so when gdmgreeter ends the user sees the gdmlogin window?
<jdub_> I CAN SMELL ROCKING :)
<thom> lup|gone: basically yes
<daniels> (and another 100 by sanitising extension configuration ...)
<daniels> lup|gone: yeah
<thom> we're not gonna get much faster than 35-40 secs on the x40 i think
<daniels> thom: .11/~daniels/xorg.conf for superstreamlined configuration
<daniels> (with no functionality loss)
<mjg59> thom: 35-40 seconds until what?
<daniels> mjg59: boot -> gdm login screen
<mjg59> Ok
<thom> mjg59: start of rcS -> end of rc2
<mjg59> But gdm could be moved further up rc2?
<thom> mjg59: it's at 13 already
<mjg59> thom: Uh. So is 40 seconds end of rc2 or appearance of login window?
<thom> mjg59: there's maybe a second's difference between those here
<mjg59> thom: Really? Wow.
<mjg59> But that's now in parallel, rather than in series, I guess
<mjg59> Are you doing any readahead yet?
<Keybuk> udevd is cute, it parallelises events on different DEVPATH, but serialises events on the same
<thom> mjg59: http://www.planetarytramp.net/bootchart/bootchart-20041209-1318.png
<daniels> hmm, down to 571 now
<mjg59> (Incidentally, how does this compare to FC?)
<thom> mjg59: we're smacking the crap out of the numbers we can find
<daniels> that's a 90% saving
<mjg59> thom: That's some pretty fucking solid disk i/o
<thom> mjg59: yeah
<mjg59> Any idea how much of it's thrash?
<thom> mjg59: i imagine much of the readahead is seek, but besides that i can't really tell
<mjg59> And this is on an X40?
<mjg59> With a 4200RPM disk?
<thom> yep
<mjg59> Man
<mjg59> How's the readahead configured?
<Keybuk> thom: fuck yeah, cupsd's init is totally nuked off that :p
<thom> pretty manually right now - we've straced X, gdm, gdmgreeter, cupsys and worked out what they're opening
<lup|gone> daniels you said in your blogs about some issues with gdm speed what do you exactly mean by that?
<mjg59> Hrm. Should the readahead be carrying on past rc2?
<thom> mjg59: bit under a thousand files in the readahead
<thom> ideally not
<mjg59> That looks like it'd thrash heavily for 7 seconds or so
<mjg59> Eurgh. Yeah, you're getting readahead during X startup.
<mjg59> That can't be good.
<thom> you'll note that there's no network startup in that chart - with that readahead and network finish about the same time
<mjg59> Maybe rc2 should block until readahead is done?
<thom> yeah, i think something like that
<mjg59> Just drop something into rc2.d at the start
<mjg59> I love how ipw2100 is a good 2 seconds of D state
<mjg59> Must be firmware loading
<thom> you should see scott's soundcard load
<thom> there's a bootchart-keybuk-1.png in that dir
<mjg59> keybuk's bootchart is teh suckitude
<thom> yeah
<mjg59> Oh, the 10 seconds of nothing are waiting for DHCP...
<mjg59> That should so be backgrounded, and individual scripts block if necessary
<daniels> lup|gone: it seems to take a *lot* of CPU
<daniels> mjg59: right
<Keybuk> oh, dhcp is gone from my boot now :p
<thom> we're talking about dependency init
<thom> it's where this is going, totally
<mjg59> HOLY SHIT
<mjg59> How does it manage 10 seconds of module loading?
<Keybuk> *shrug* that alsa driver sucks
<thom> that's the soundcard of death
<mjg59> What's it trying to do? Copy the entire OS over a single wire bus?
<Keybuk> there's probably sleep(10) in there or something
<lup|gone> I wonder if hotplug can't start parallel to X
<daniels> no, it's spinning the entire time, innit?
<mjg59> I'm amused at how you're micro-optimising it on machines that are probably going to be rebooted something like once a month in normal usage
<azeem> it plays the free software song muted to check the card, I assume
<daniels> lup|gone: think: sound
<mjg59> daniels: Kernel-space sleep spins
<lup|gone> why sound?
<mjg59> On the other hand, you can't sleep for more than 0.1 seconds in the kernel now
<mjg59> There's a magic macro that breaks it
<lup|gone> gdmgreeter needs sound
<lup|gone> X doesn't I think?
<daniels> down to 538.  if I attempt to optimise it further, please smack me in the head.
* thom prepares things to launch at daniels
<mjg59> daniels: 538 opens?
<daniels> lup|gone: nope, X doesn't, but if you start it parallel, then you run the risk of having your GNOME session start before your sound card comes up, which is massive suck.
<daniels> mjg59: 538 opens/stats/whatever
<daniels> mjg59: as opposed to 5702 originally
<daniels> mjg59: x server startup is a *lot* faster
<mjg59> thom: Well, David Zuthen is claiming 40 seconds wallclock from grub to desktop
<daniels> thom: usual place
<daniels> mjg59: yes, but that was bullshit
<mjg59> Ah
<mjg59> Heh
<daniels> mjg59: he replaced init with a small shell script that loaded the modules for his machine
<mjg59> Yeah
<daniels> didn't bother with trivial services such as network
<daniels> and slammed 193MB into the page cache
<mjg59> And it starts little else
<mjg59> But it gives possibilities
<daniels> also, not starting the gdm greeter is a pretty big win
<thom> yeah
<thom> gdmgreeter is pretty hellish - it has a stack of stuff that it needs to load
<lup|gone> daniels that is correct but is there no way to start X and then start gnome-session if sound is found or all devices have been detected by hotplug?
<daniels> (the other problem with gdmgreeter is that right now, it needs to scale down a 1600x1200 PNG and then overlay another PNG with an alpha channel on top of it)
<daniels> (this is not terribly cheap.)
<mjg59> daniels: You've dropped VBERestore now?
<Keybuk> can't we start the sound-server as part of the boot process?
<thom> mjg59: my graphs are all with vberestore on
<daniels> mjg59: i'm getting quite blinding speed without it
<daniels> Keybuk: isn't esd per-user?
<mjg59> daniels: Dude, drop VBErestore
<daniels> mjg59: talk to thom
<mjg59> We can do it in the ACPI path
<mjg59> thom: DROP VBERESTORE
<daniels> thom: (YOU MUPPET)
<daniels> thom: (NOT REALLY, BUT IT WAS ENTERTAINING)
<Keybuk> daniels: sure, but it should be per-machine ... different users don't have different soundcards normally :)
<daniels> Keybuk: polyp?
<daniels> Keybuk: anyway, is there IBM power over there I can steal?
<Keybuk> thom's on battery
<thom> bob2?
<daniels> me too ... all 3% of it
<Keybuk> if you can take mdz's plug, you could steal his I guess :p
<daniels> his stuff appears to be elsewhere
<daniels> Keybuk: who's is that?
<Keybuk> mdz
<daniels> ah
<daniels> well, mdz volunteers, I guess :)
<bob2> thom: ?
<mjg59> thom: The stuff I hacked up yesterday lets us do the VBE save/restore on our way through suspend/resume, rather than doing it in general
<mjg59> If it turns out that we still need it in X space, the right thing to do is hack it into the X suspend/resume code rather than do it on every VT switch
<daniels> right
<mjg59> (running my stuff while X is running kills X)
<thom> oh, sweet
<mjg59> vbestate save >foo
<mjg59> vbestate restore <foo
<pitti> o
* thom goes to try a new reboot
<thom> sans vberestore
<bob2> ffoh, I'm on battery too
<daniels> ffoh?
<Keybuk> hmm... I wonder why things like ntpdate and mountnfs aren't done in if-up.d
<bob2> ff = hitting keys to see if the network is fucked
<mjg59> Keybuk: Because, uh, erm...
<mjg59> (because that's not the way things are done, damn it)
<Keybuk> heh
<Keybuk> they are now :p
<daniels> bob2: ah
<thom> we take 12 seconds to mount and uncompress the initrd
<thom> we so should try with an uncompressed one
<daniels> yeah
<daniels> i was going to say, maybe it's worth shooting for no compression if it's viable
<fabbione> thom: just check cramfs options
<fabbione> that's easy to hack
<daniels> hm, so gdmgreeter uses a *lot* of cpu
<thom> i think for us we're probably safe not to bother
<rburton> daniels: considered trying a pure SVG theme to avoid the PNG rescale? you'll be trading one complex algorithm for another, but people claim SVG icons are faster than PNG in the scheme of things in gtk
<thom> ber, that run got totally bitten by laptop mode
<daniels> rburton: i'm trying something now
<daniels> thom: hold up
<daniels> thom: humour me -- replace /usr/share/gdm/themes/Human/background.png with .11/~daniels/background.png
* rburton wonders if background.png originally had an empty alpha channel
<daniels> thom: it's not perfect (positioning is off), but I want to see how much we win by not rescaling and overlaying
<daniels> i.e. how much of it is needing to optimise gdmgreeter to hell
<daniels> thom: btw, remove xfonts-base-transcoded if you have it
<thom> daniels: background.png not on .11/~daniels/
<daniels> daniels@catsby:~/public_html% sudo mv background.png /usr/share/gdm/themes/Human
<daniels> daniels@catsby:~/public_html% cp /usr/share/gdm/themes/Human/background.png .
<daniels> lesson learnt.
<thom> heh :-)
<thom> ok, lets try this again with no laptop-mode
<daniels> thom: DOUBLE THE FIST
<lup|gone> using imlib is out of the question? :) (I heard it was very fast for image handling)
<daniels> to be fair, raster's tests were written to show up render and make imlib look awesome
<rburton> gdkpixbuf shouldn't be way slower than imlib
<daniels> thom: .11/~daniels/Human.xml
<daniels> thom: and dude, ditch ntpdate
<maswan> daniels: dude, if you don't ntpdate, your clock might be way off.
<daniels> maswan: ntpd
<daniels> having ntpdate block sucks
<tseng> openntpd++
<tseng> i should package that
<daniels> (it's blocking for a good 10-15sec)
<maswan> daniels: Is that one less chicken of adjusting the clock multiple hours at startup?
<maswan> .. these days
<daniels> maswan: huh?
<daniels> oh, right
<thom> bootchart-20041209-1721.png
<daniels> it won't do multiple hours per default, but I think it could be configured to do so
<haggai> does anyone speak danish?
<Clint> subverting ntp isn't such a good idea
<maswan> that's the classical reason for running ntpdate at boot, because if the hwclock says 1970-01-01 00:00...
<daniels> haggai: very, very badly, but I have a phrasebook on my room
<daniels> s/on/in/
<maswan> but if ntpd can be fixed to do large adjustments at boot/startup, that's good.
<maswan> haggai: it is close enough to swedish for me to usually be able to read it.
<haggai> daniels: I'm looking at 2 translations and wondering which one is the most up to date
<haggai> "En logind-hndtering er et program, der giver mulighed for grafisk logind "
<haggai> is it "En" or "Den" ?
<haggai> (at the beginning)
<daniels> haggai: i don't have the grammar to tell you, sorry
<maswan> "En", most likely.
<haggai> hmm, ok I was expecting the other way
* haggai looks for another one
<maswan> hmm.. yeah, "_A_ login-thingie is _a_ program"
<haggai> "A display manager is a program that provides graphical login capabilities "
<haggai> was the original
<maswan> yeah
<haggai> Please select which display manager should "
<haggai> "run by default.""run by default."
<haggai> 1. "som udgangspunkt skal kres."
<haggai> 2. "skal kres som standard."
<haggai> 1 or 2 ?
<thom> i'm gonna look at caching /dev
<daniels> ok, so we're looking at around 40 seconds so far
<daniels> (that's subtracting ntpdate)
<maswan> haggai: Hmm.. That's a hard one, it seems to say about the same thing.
<daniels> /dev seems to be a major hit (in the order of 5-7 seconds)
<haggai> maswan: ok, thanks
<thom> don't wanna rebuild initrd on battery
<maswan> haggai: so the change is probably because one is better danish than the other, and I'm not native enough to tell which.
<haggai> maswan: heh :) ok, I'll take the one from KDE CVS not the deb package
<Keybuk> thom: the main problem is the udev device table
<thom> Keybuk: expand?
<haggai> maswan: that's the one with the later date, and the En
<maswan> haggai: ok, glad I could help
<lamont_r> ntpdate is almost entirely I/O bound, could just be backgrounded without hurting things much at all.
<Keybuk> you know udev has a table in /dev/.udevdb right? :)
<Keybuk> though that should be attarrable
* maswan agrees with lamont_r, that's the sensible thing to do with ntpdate
<thom> Keybuk: oh, right. yes
<lamont_r> Keybuk: which font is that from??
* lamont_r gets boxes
<Keybuk> ntpdate is going into if-up.d
<Keybuk> no point doing it until the first device pops its head up
<lamont_r> even better
<Kamion> anyone at the conference got a Thinkpad T42?
<lamont_r> doko: gcc-3.3 and 3.4 built for i386. yippee!
<Keybuk> Kamion: mdz.
<Kamion> bonus, I may hijack him later for testing then
<Keybuk> syndicate tmp% sudo time tar xzf ~/dev.tar.gz
<Keybuk> 0.05user 0.39system 0:01.24elapsed 36%CPU (0avgtext+0avgdata 0maxresident)k
<Kamion> thanks
<Keybuk> 0inputs+0outputs (0major+460minor)pagefaults 0swaps
<Keybuk> syndicate tmp% sudo time udevstart
<Keybuk> 7.38user 2.68system 0:11.79elapsed 85%CPU (0avgtext+0avgdata 0maxresident)k
<Keybuk> 0inputs+0outputs (0major+588855minor)pagefaults 0swaps
<Keybuk> ^ good 10s there
<daniels> Kamion: yeah, mdz has one in front of me
<thom> nice
<daniels> thom	/boot is calling you
<thom> heh
<doko> lamont_r: yes, after tcl8.4 built
<daniels> thom: paging in /usr/X11R6/bin/Xorg, /usr/X11R6/lib/modules/linux//libint10.a,  /usr/X11R6/lib/modules/libvbe.a, /usr/X11R6/lib/modules/libscanpci.a, /usr/X11R6/lib/modules/libpcidata.a, /usr/X11R6/lib/modules/fonts/libfreetype.a, /usr/X11R6/lib/modules/extensions/libGLcore.a, and /usr/X11R6/lib/modules/extensions/libglx.a highly recommended
<lamont_r> doko: yes.  thank you.
<thom> daniels: already done
<daniels> thom: rockin'
<daniels> thom: those are the big ones
<thom> grabbed from the straces
<daniels> ah, one step ahead
<daniels> is it just me, or does anyone else in the NM bof think mdz is posing like a life model atm?
<thom> rofl
<thom> we need a photo to go with the line on quotes
<Kamion> daniels: haha
<Kamion> must be the turtle-neck
<thom> lamont_r++
<lamont_r> Mithrandir: swig1.3 is still ftbfs on amd64 (pike7.4 issues)
<lamont_r> 4146
<Mithrandir> phun
* lamont_r dep-waits swig1.3
<Mithrandir> ew
<Mithrandir> I'll whack at it
<Treenaks> Mithrandir: the NL thunderbird is not on crack today
<fabbione> daniels: http://debian.linux-systeme.com/dists/unstable/main/source/xorg_6.8.1-0.4_i386.changes
<fabbione> daniels: i think i found that guy was mumbling about problems building xorg with us
<fabbione> but he seems to have a bunch on patches
<fabbione> that we can pull in
* sid77 hi
<Mithrandir> Treenaks: goodie
<seb128> elmo_away, libgnomeui sync please
<fabbione> seb128: he is sleep in his room.
<fabbione> he was not feeling good
<seb128> fabbione, ok. Do you think he'll read the IRC messages when he comes back or I should rather note the packages to sync somewhere ?
<fabbione> seb128: if he will survive, i would suggest to remind him
<seb128> ok
<seb128> fabbione, and if he doesn't who should I ping ? :p
<fabbione> seb128: god
<fabbione> he is the only one one step up elmo
<fabbione> ;)
<seb128> ah ah
<Treenaks> New Global Directory of OpenPGP Keys --> http://yro.slashdot.org/yro/04/12/09/1446203.shtml?tid=93&tid=158
<Treenaks> http://www.pgp.com/downloads/beta/globaldirectory/index.html
<mxpxpod> lamont_r: ping
<seb128> seb128, carlos says ping
<seb128> oups
<lamont_r> mxpxpod: ack
<mxpxpod> lamont_r: ok, I know you got the mount segfault fixed, but my partitions still don't unmount on shutdown because /.dev gets unmounted before everything else
<lamont_r> with 2.21j-2?
<lamont_r> 2.12j-2 that is
<lamont_r> er, -2ubuntu1 or so
<mxpxpod> lamont_r: yes
<lamont_r> hrmpf
<mxpxpod> lamont_r: hold on, let me check my logs
<mxpxpod> lamont_r: it's not in my logs, but I know that when it goes to unmount local filesystems, it says it can't find '/'
<mxpxpod> lamont_r: I'm also getting a warning on reboot that says I still have a .udevdb in /dev
<lamont_r> yeah - I see that one too, but I don't think that's mine...
<mxpxpod> ok, just making sure
<Mithrandir> seb128: do you mind others nicking packages and merging them underneath you, like eel, bug-buddy and so on?
<seb128> Mithrandir, I'm doing merging right now, I'm just closed 4 bugs about that
<Mithrandir> ok
<lamont_r> mdz??
<doko> mvo: http://lists.debian.org/debian-legal/2004/12/msg00017.html
<fabbione> mdz: ping
<mdz> fabbione: pong
<fabbione> mdz: amu was asking about including cloop as part of the kernel since it is required for the LiveCD
<fabbione> mdz: do you have objections to it?
<fabbione> i think it can live as module and be loaded in the initrd.gz
<fabbione> and i also remember that we need to some kind of fs module
<fabbione> to simulate writing
<mdz> fabbione: yes, we need it
<mdz> but no, we do not need the filesystem module
<mdz> only cloop
<mdz> it's packaged in Debian and should be quite simple, one file
<fabbione> mdz: yes i am already looking at the code
<fabbione> but since one requirement for hoary was to have teh same kernel for live and normal...
<fabbione> ok.. it will be in in -5 :-)
<mdz> fabbione: yes, that is the idea
<mdz> if we can get the cloop module in, we can use the same kernel
<mdz> we are using a different mechanism to make the filesystem writable
<mdz> using device-mapper, which is already there
<fabbione> mdz: sure i can get it in
<fabbione> mdz: -4 with the scsi fix is up
<fabbione> at least the one liner we found
<fabbione> all the google search didn't report anything else
<fabbione> the other crap i found this morning was rc2 -> rc3 related and it shouldn't be an issue for us
<thom> bunch new bootcharts up
<jdub_> mdz: what was the dm thing you're using for the livecd?
<mdz> jdub_: dm-snapshot
<jdub_> thanks
<jdub_> that keeps an overlay of stuff in ram?
<mdz> it does copy-on-write from one device-mapper target to another
<jdub_> aha
<jdub_> very very nice
<jdub_> *very* nice
<mdz> I don't think anyone has used it for a live CD yet
<mdz> so shhhhh until I get the prototype out :-)
<jdub_> :-)
<mirak> what must I do to use the ati driver with kernel 2.6.9 ?
<jdub_> mdz: it came up in discussion of readahead block optimisation
<mirak> is just building the source package of the driver enough ?
<jdub_> mdz: craaaaaack :)
<lamont_r> mirak: if the modules package for 2.6.9 is there, it's trivial.  if not, then it hasn't been uploaded yet, but is in plan for "real soon now".
<mirak> ok
<thom> mirak: and this is a question better asked in #ubuntu, by the way :-)
<mirak> thom: and not better answered
<mirak> if at all
<thom> mirak: that's as maybe, but this really is not a support channel
<fabbione> mdz: cloop-utils -> main?
<fabbione> amu:   Compressed Loop Support (BLK_DEV_CLOOP) [N/m/?]  (NEW) m
<fabbione> and now let see if it compiles :-)
<jdub> Keybuk: can you come upstairs for a minute?
<ogra> hehe
<jdub> Keybuk: need to run a dpkg issue by you
<lamont_r> jdub: you should point mdz at fabbione's question
<jdub> (if Keybuk isn't watching, someone nudge him)
<ogra> fabbione: can we see you jumping around again ?
<jdub> fabbione: mdz says yes, i'll put it in supported
<jdub> thom: ping
<daniels> SHIT HOT.
<daniels> mjg59: more optimising, this time on the stupidly CPU-heavy parts
<daniels> mjg59: X is now a blip on the bootchart -- we're now spending more time in VBE than initialising X and handing over to gdmgreeter by a factor of, oh, 7
<Kamion> daniels: how goes l-r-m?
<daniels> Kamion: just looking at that now, actually :) i'm pretty confident I can upload this run
<Mithrandir> Treenaks?
<Treenaks> Mithrandir?
<Mithrandir> where are you?
<Treenaks> Mithrandir: BOF room
<Mithrandir> oh, ok
<Mithrandir> I just left.
<Treenaks> Mithrandir: where are YOU
<Mithrandir> you wanted to sign keys; we can do it afterwards.
<Mithrandir> cristal
<Treenaks> ok, I can get there
<thom> jdub: ack
<Mithrandir> *sigh*, keyslips left in my room, give me two minutes.
<fabbione> ogra: ehehe
<fabbione> jdub: fine for me.. if it is ok with amu
<jdub> thom: n/m
<fabbione> amu: looks good: compressed_loop.o
<Keybuk> keybuk: 1 - hotplug: 0
<fabbione> dinner bof
<fabbione> :-)
<sivang> fabbione : exactly
<sivang> fabbione :  :-)
<moquist_> i see there's a bounty for Python scripting interfaces for the GIMP.  Has GIMP-Python (http://www.jamesh.id.au/software/pygimp/) been considered?
<jamesh> I'm probably not eligible
<jamesh> (of course, yosh has been doing most of the pygimp maintaintenance recently
<mjg59> daniels: That is so much coolness
<mjg59> thom: Keybuk: Is there any reason ntpdate can't be backgrounded?
<mjg59> Is there anything in the init scripts that depends on time being monotonic?
<mjg59> daniels: ntpd won't step time, it'll just alter the clock speed to get you there gradually. That way, time never goes backwards or jumps too far
<mjg59> (see what happens to xscreensaver if you ntpdate from inside X)
<daniels> heh :)
<daniels> Keybuk is working on heavy crack for that
<daniels> so we can effectively parallelise it
<mjg59> Rocking
<moquist_> jamesh: i wasn't thinking so much about the payment of the bounty; i was wondering if the need leading to the bounty offer is already being met.  apparently it's not - so what else is needed?
<jamesh> moquist_: well, there is the talk of "a common document object model", which is a large project (and not an Ubuntu only one).
<jamesh> moquist_: I'm not sure what the exact available bounties would be.
<moquist_> jamesh: re: common DOM - right.  it isn't clear from the description whether work is wanted on OO, Abiword, GIMP, etc. individually, or only within the context of developing a common DOM.
<jamesh> moquist_: have you ever programmed in VB or similar on Windows?
<moquist_> jamesh: yes, though that was in school.  i've been doing C in UNIX for three years since then...
<jamesh> moquist_: okay.  VB is a pretty crappy language, but its power comes from the ability to script pretty much any COM interface available
<jamesh> moquist_: there were a lot of components provided with the OS, and pretty much every decent sized app provided COM scripting support
<moquist_> if it isn't clear, I'm looking for an entry-point into Ubuntu dev.  i'm not interested so much in a bounty as I am in a defined problem space...
<moquist_> jamesh: right.  so the goal is a common set of interfaces to GIMP, OO, Abi, etc. functionality.
<jamesh> the idea is to have something similar on Linux desktops, so that people find it worthwhile writing language bindings for the object model, and applications find it worthwhile supporting it.
<jamesh> (this is a pretty big project, as you can guess)
<moquist_> yah.
<jamesh> is there anything in particular that you are interested in?
<moquist_> jamesh: no, and that's part of my problem.  :)
<moquist_> i have UNIX kernel experience, and general application experience (though not professionally there)
<moquist_> so far I've been looking over the bounties, because they're [relatively]  well-defined areas that I *know* need work.  can you help direct me more precisely?
<moquist_> i looked a bit at the kernel module autoloading problem, but I didn't think that would necessarily be a good jumping-in point.
<jamesh> I'm not exactly sure what work is covered there.
<moquist_> so I'm interested in diverse things, and I'm having trouble narrowing my focus.  knowing what the strongest needs are would help...
<moquist_> (sorry - i'm laboring under a *very* slow connection ATM, so I can't respond quickly)  And now you're gone, but I'll post this anyway.  :-p
<eruin> wish I had skills in C
<eruin> but alas, back to my communist-russia-inspired designing ;D
<moquist_> heh
<mjg59> Working ACPI on a Toshiba with nvidia!
<azeem> mjg59: do you have a patch relative to the ubuntu kernel source for the kernel image you got on srcf.ucam.org?
<mjg59> azeem: It's all in the Hoary 2.6.9
<azeem> ah, okie
<mjg59> But the patches are at http://www.codon.org.uk/~mjg59/patches/
<azeem> thanks
<mjg59> daniels: Ping?
#ubuntu-devel 2004-12-21
<moquist> hi ironwolf 
<calc> so how is the speed up going?
<calc> would be nice if ubuntu could boot as fast as xp
<GotD0t> but calc remember, you need to boot xp every 30 minutes from crashes, while in ubuntu you need to boot once a month if you're unlucky
<whiprush> jdub: how's the conference going?
<whiprush> you guys definately need to do that imendio ogg streaming thing for the next one.
<whiprush> for the sake of us stuck in the states. :D
<jdub> we'll probably have streaming stuff today
<jdub> it was never an official thing, we're just hacking on it
<jdub> it's more of a boffy conference than a presentations conference - perhaps having a radio-style stream of each room would be good
<jdub> format makes things a bit harder
<whiprush> that would rule.
<whiprush> even raw feeds would rule. Let us figure it out, heh.
<jdub> yeah, i just mean putting a high sensitivity microphone in the middle of the room and letting it run
<whiprush> indeed
<whiprush> man dude, that startup stuff is exciting. 
<jdub> heh
<jdub> it's insane
<jdub> so i was upstairs in the bof room for most of the afternoon
<whiprush> perhaps we should be locking you guys up in rooms more often
<jdub> while thom, scott and daniels were hacking on startup stuff
<jdub> downstairs in the ballroom - they'd keep taunting us with the news
<whiprush> is someone going to be doing a summary thinger on the conference? It'd be good to get an overall view on the stuff you guys hacked on.
<jdub> there are a bunch of summaries of the bof sessions
<whiprush> good good
<jdub> but a general summary of what everyone hacked on would be... challenging ;)
* jdub should be blogging more
<whiprush> the list I saw had lots of DDs on it. Sounds like some good overall stuff.
<whiprush> yeah you should. :P daniels blog had lots of pants happy today. 
<whiprush> ugh, I'm so behind now, should I just wait for hoary for an ubuntu review? Seems kind of overdone lately.
<jdub> heh
<jdub> there was even an osnews 'warty to hoary' article, man
<whiprush> tell me about it. I've fixed like 5 people tonite that don't know dpkg. Tough to advocate when you have people brand new to linux trying to use hoary.
<jdub> yeah
<Treenaks> http://foodfight.org/fotos/2004/12-09%20Ubuntu%20Conference/
<jdub> Simira: ping
<fabbione> morning guys
<pasc> what timezone are you guys in?
<Treenaks> pasc: CET, GMT+1
<pasc> ok
<pasc> so 10 hours difference
<Simira> jdub: pong
<lamont_r> pasc: you left coast?
<pitti> Hi carlos
<carlos> pitti: hi!
<seb128> morning
<jdub> Simira: what's your key id?
<jdub> ogg/theora stream -> http://192.168.0.52:8800/
<jdub> use totem or mplayer
<Simira> jdub: tha last octet :p eedb201e
<Treenaks> jdub: video only?
<jdub> yeah
<jdub> Simira: ahr
<Treenaks> jdub: "no subtitles available"? what kind of stream is that 8)
<jdub> everyone connect :)
<jdub> there's only me and treenaks atm
<Treenaks> jdub: what kind of cam is this btw?
<jdub> logitech quickcam thingy
<jdub> pwc driver
<Treenaks> ah
<Mithrandir> jdub: theora?
<Mithrandir> oh, yeah, you said
<sjoerd> jdub: that's with the flumotion streaming thingie ?
<Mithrandir> jdub: is it shit because of the came or because of theora?
<Treenaks> Mithrandir: the colors, you mean?
<jdub> sjoerd: yeah
<thom> jdub: connection refused :P
<Treenaks> also, wouldn't multicast be more efficient? :)
<jdub> Mithrandir: what kind of shit?
<sjoerd> nice
<Mithrandir> colors all washed out
<Mithrandir> the white balance is probably on crack
<jdub> yeah
<jdub> shitty camera and software controls for it
<Mithrandir> add a gstreamer-whitebalance-filter?
<jdub> it's already pushed > 100MB :)
<jdub> Mithrandir: heh, camera needs to be configured too
<jdub> taking stream down for a moment
<jdub> http://192.168.0.52:8802/
<jdub> back again
<sjoerd> all pwc cams i've seen untill now can be set on automatic mode..
<jdub> mmm, have to check the kernel options
<sjoerd> you ned to do a pwc specific ioctl to change the mode
<thom> heh, watch mdz's disembodied hands handwave
<Kamion> daniels: l-r-m? I can't do a test install to check out a second-stage bug that I'm being hassled about at the moment, 'cos linux-386 is uninstallable :(
<Mithrandir> haggai: *prod*
<jdub> back again
<Keybuk> /etc/init.d/hotplug start  0.41s user 0.26s system 38% cpu 1.744 total
* thom watches elmo choke
<mojo> ahhemm, I don't want to disturb all developers here, but I just 1 question: When the new gnome-panel be uploaded? Without gnome-panel, my GNOME is rendered 'dead'
<seb128> when it'll be ready ? :)
<seb128> probably the first changes in a couple of days
<mojo> thx
<jdub> dead?
<jdub> there's nothing broken about the panel atm
<fabbione> who wants to fix control-center build-dep?
<fabbione> it's missing libxinerama-dev
<seb128> _o/
<fabbione> http://people.ubuntulinux.org/~lamont/buildLogs/c/control-center/1:2.8.1-3ubuntu5/
<seb128> thanks for pointing that fabbione 
<fabbione> seb128: no problem mate ;)
<Simira> Mako looks kinda tired today...
<Simira> I mean, more than usual
<Mithrandir> heh
<Mithrandir> he's not a morning person
<Simira> definitely
* Simira is leaving
<Simira> buy guys
<Simira> bye*
<Simira> :p
<Treenaks> Simira: bye
<Simira> bye all. It's been really really great. See you online.
<mojo> Are there anyway to remove mime-type default open program entries that are set 'unremovabled' via Properties?
<Mithrandir> jdub: running with a sepia filter now?
<jdub> heh
<jdub> no
<haggai> Mithrandir: morning
<Mithrandir> haggai: install failed
<haggai> Mithrandir: aw :(
<Mithrandir> tools/unxlngi4.gnomevfs.pro/lib/libtl645li.so ; no such file or directory.
<mojo> arasearath0n
<mojo> fix the swfrender.so in RealPlayer
<pitti> doko: I updated the langpack wiki
<pitti> elmo: do we have a powerpc hoary chroot with glibc build-deps?
<pitti> ogra_: ping
<jdub> lifeless: ping
<Treenaks> why not just a big broadcast ping?
<Mithrandir> haggai: you're not on jabber. :P ; what does the build time look like, with ccache?
<pitti> ogra_: ping
<ogra_> pitti: pong
<thom> sjoerd: can you poke seb to turn jabber on?
<Mithrandir> what's the tool which, given a keysigning sheet and your keyring outputs who you haven't signed?
<azeem> awk
<Mithrandir> there's a script which probably uses awk or perl or something, yes.
<azeem> yeah :) I'd be interested in that as well
<azeem> not that I get around to sign keys anyway, but it's nice to see who you could potentially sign...
<pitti> elmo:  do we have a powerpc hoary chroot with glibc build-deps?
<elmo> err, davis?
<pitti> elmo: "Unknown id: pitti"
<pitti> elmo: can you please allow me?
<Keybuk> ah, a daniels
<Keybuk> he looks rested ;)
<lamont_r> Err http://people.ubuntulinux.org  Packages                                 
<lamont_r> 
<lamont_r> Hit http://people.ubuntulinux.org  Packages                                    
* lamont_r giggles at mvo
<elmo> pitti: meh, fixed
<pitti> elmo: thanks a lot
* mvo ignores lamont_r
<lamont_r> mvo: that's because you have no Packages.bz2 on your apt repository
<mvo> correct :)
* lamont_r giggles more
<lamont_r> bad error message
* mvo grumbles
* lamont_r spanks apt
<mvo> I really need to teach it to not report it as an error
<fabbione> Keybuk: ehehhe
<lamont_r> or at least a more-clear error.
<pasc> 20 hours until I leave
* pasc taps his foot
<lamont_r> pasc: to where?
<pasc> mataro
<seb128> hey pasc 
<lamont_r> pasc: cool
<pasc> then 28 hours in transit until I hit barcelona
<pasc> then however long it takes to get to mataro
<thom> ~40 minutes
<lamont_r> about an hour on the train
<pasc> right... so a round 30 hours of transit
<thom> assuming you don't hit barcelona so hard you splash... ;-)
<lamont_r> 50 min +/- :-)
<fabbione> amu, mdz: the cloop module is part of the kernel now. it will be up in -5. I only need to finish a -D__SMP__ compilation test
<daniels> Kamion: i dput'ed it last night
<daniels> mjg59: pong
<fabbione> daniels: g1bb0r m3 m0r3 cr4ck
<fabbione> daniels: l-r-m?
<daniels> fabbione: it's been in NEW since yesterday
<fabbione> daniels: you suck :P
<fabbione> seb128: you rock!
<fabbione> thanks for CC
<seb128> fabbione, np :)
<seb128> daniels, I've got a decent resolution on my laptop :)
<Kamion> daniels: aha
<seb128> daniels, I had to add a Modeline for 1280x800
<daniels> seb128: heh, cool
<daniels> seb128: if you file a bug with the modeline, I'll add it for the next revision
<seb128> ok, thanks
<Treenaks> ok, so my power-on-on-shutdown+lidclose bug is gone
<Treenaks> how about the suspend-to-ram-on-wakeup-from-suspend-to-ram one? :)
<lamont_r> Treenaks: heh
<daniels> god, I may have made X fast enough that I'm exposing races that weren't previously there
<pitti> name = jdub.create_better_name_for("hhdt")
<pitti> jdub: :-)
<pitti> jdub: otherwise I use hwfu
<jdub> :-)
<jdub> hwfu is pretty cool
<ogra_> pitti: so lets keep hwfu
<pitti> ogra_: I'll check it into arch then
<ogra_> k
<Kamion> my GOD this BOF is crashing my brain
<pitti> ogra_: can you maintain your own branch on a public mirror?
* Kamion runs away into the nice safe comfortable world of the installer
<thom> Kamion: it's currently so far over my head i'm shocked that you guys don't have anoxoia
<ogra_> pitti: i'll try...
<Mithrandir> thom: d-i or the BOF?
<thom> bof. i may be exagerating a touch for effect
<elmo> this dropping of NEW connections is getting old
<pitti> ogra_: if you make-archive to a http-accessible spot, please don't forget -l :-)
<thom> elmo: nod
<ogra_> pitti: i'll read the docs :)
<ogra_> pitti: have to do that anyway
<seb128> elmo, sync for libgnomeui and libgnomecanvas please
<elmo> seb128: done
<seb128> thanks
<fabbione> Kamion: E: Package archdetect has no installation candidate
<fabbione> ?
<bob2> which bof is it?
<fabbione> kubuntu?
<lamont_r> kubuntu.
<mjg59> daniels: Is there any vaguely standard way of getting nvidia stuff using the nv driver to switch between LCD and CRT?
<sivang> kubuntu?
<pitti> indeed, kubuntu. :-)
<mjg59> daniels: (Also: successful StR with nvidia chipset Toshiba)
<daniels> mjg59: nice!
<daniels> mjg59: using nv driver?  not really
<mjg59> Bah
<lamont_r> sivang: think ubuntu with gnome ripped out and kde added
<sivang> lamont_r : yeah but why in the world would you like to do that?
<sivang> :)
<sivang> lamont_r : btw, what's the _r stands for?
<lamont_r> roving
<Mithrandir> reentrant
<bob2> sivang: he's coming to you LIVE via satellite
<Treenaks> retard?
* Mithrandir twaps Treenaks 
<Treenaks> Mithrandir: !
<sivang> bob2 : huh?
* Riddell wishes he could be at the KDE ubuntu BoF
<pitti> Treenaks: I hate your T-Shirt
<Kamion> fabbione: archdetect> context?
<Riddell> anyone taking notes from the BoF?
<Mithrandir> why was the Live CD BOF moved?
<Treenaks> pitti: I hate yours too
<pitti> Treenaks: guess which T-Shirt fabbione wears under his pullover...
<Treenaks> omfg?
<pitti> Treenaks: yes, it's what you suspect
<Treenaks> pitti: I'm lucky daniels and I didn't wear the "pixelated communism" one on the same day :)
<thom> i really dig that tshirt
<Treenaks> thom: you're wearing it too?
<thom> no, i want one of the pixelated communism ones
<azeem> Treenaks: I think he implies you should give it to him
<thom> i have a transformers t-shirt
<azeem> thom: I dig that one
<Treenaks> thom: those were limited edition
<thom> Treenaks: dang
<Treenaks> thom: you might beg the guy from dieselsweeties.com for more...
<Treenaks> or "pressure" him into it
<elmo> ROBOTS IN DISGUISE
<thom> BREAKDANCING
<Treenaks> jordi/mako might like http://www.dieselsweeties.com/shirts/index2.shtml#recycle
* sivang wonders why no ubuntu merchendize was brought to the conference for purchasing.
<Treenaks> sivang: ask again :)
<sivang> I thought I might get me self a nice ubuntu T-Shirt, or baseball cap
<sivang> Treenaks : ask again? 
<Treenaks> sivang: yeah, lulu might know
<sivang> k, I'll ask her!
<lulu> sivang:?
<sivang> lulu : Would you happen to have had brought some of the _wonderful_ ubuntu merchendize so ubuntu fans could purchase some? :)
<lulu> nope - we couldn't get a bulk delivery in time. But, cafepress is up and running - see the link in Quick links for the Ubuntu shop.
<Kamion> I now have a Transformers theme tune earworm. YOU BASTARDS
* ross notes he still hasn't got his CDs
<bob2> TRANSFORMERS, more than meets the eye!
<Kamion> mdz: is anyone already working on adding l-r-m for powerpc/amd64 to linux-meta?
<Kamion> if not, I can
* Mithrandir notes that OOo takes _FOREVER_ to build.
<Kamion> Riddell: not sure who's taking notes, but we have a rule that all BoFs have to have notes taken from them, so I'm sure they'll appear
<mdz> Kamion: not to my knowledge; check with fabbione
<fabbione> mdz: no i am not. i am working only on linux-source atm
<Kamion> daniels: http://people.ubuntu.com/~lamont/buildLogs/l/linux-restricted-modules-2.6.9/2.6.9-1/linux-restricted-modules-2.6.9_2.6.9-1_20041210-1037-i386-failed
<daniels> Kamion: sigh
<Kamion> ia64 too, for that matter
<Kamion> although its failure is much scarier; i386 looks mostly like x.org build-deps
<daniels> i have to say that I find the build-dep failure deeply, deeply ironic
<Kamion> mdz: ok, I'll poke it then
<daniels> Kamion: hmm, ia64 is very 'special' in this regard
<daniels> Kamion: would it be a problem for you if I temporarily took ia64 out of the Architecture list?
<Kamion> daniels: not in the least
<daniels> phat
<daniels> should be uploaded in 10min or so
<lupus_> From: 	hostmaster@gs1.ubuntuforums.org
<lupus_> To: 	de_lupus@pandora.be
<lupus_> Subject: 	Your mail password <KEY:2884>
<lupus_> Date: 	Fri, 10 Dec 2004 04:57:43 GMT  (05:57 CET)
<lupus_> Your password was changed successfully!
<lupus_> ++++++ User-Service: http://www.gs1.ubuntuforums.org
<lupus_> ++++++ MailTo: postmaster@gs1.ubuntuforums.org
<lupus_> *-*-* Mail_Scanner: No Virus
<lupus_> *-*-* PANDORA- Anti_Virus Service
<lupus_> *-*-* http://www.pandora.be
<lupus_> it has an attachment with a virus
<mojo> wt...???
<lupus_> got already 8 mails like this
<mojo> hehe
<mojo> seems to me
<mojo> some developers want to blackmail u
<lupus_> lol :)
<mojo> did u do something guilty?
<mojo> lol
<mojo> spamassasin is ur sidekick this time
<lupus_> is  the site hacked?
<lupus_> I had once
<Kamion> please don't dump this sort of thing into IRC; mail is trivially forgeable and most of us get an awful lot of forged mail already
<lupus_> hmm k
<Mithrandir> amazing! I got a picture of jdub without him making funny faces.
<Kamion> it's unlikely that the mail actually came from ubuntuforums.org at all, and for further information about e-mail security there are better sources of information than #ubuntu-devel. :)
<jdub_> 13:47 < jdub> thom, Keybuk: we have a culprit /etc/dev.d/default/unmount.dev
<jdub_> 13:47 < jdub> it shouldn't be there
<jdub_> 13:47 < jdub> (conffile not removed)
<jdub_> when commenting out the umount -l, it doesn't happen
<Kamion> mojo: BTW, not many developers are actually involved in ubuntuforums.org
<jdub_> reproducible
<mjg59> <Mithrandir> amazing! I got a picture of jdub without him making funny faces.
<jdub_> we can't figure it out :-)
<mjg59> Mithrandir: Now you have to die
<jdub_> FUCK Mithrandir 
<Kamion> jdub_: isn't that the same as lamont discovered the other day?
<jdub_> Kamion: he did?
<Kamion> uh-huh
<Kamion> hadn't fully figured out the right solution last I checked
<jdub_> so you guys handily kept it to yourselves? :)
<jdub_> and we were feeling the ABJECT PAIN?
<Mithrandir> mjg59: heh
<lamont__r> jdub_: discussed it in channel, etc.
<lamont__r> hell, we discussed it on #ubuntu, iirc
<jdub_> lamont__r: so it turns out to be an old unremoved conffile
<mojo> I'd like to contribute a hack for Ubuntu-about that include all photos of all developers
<lamont__r> really? doh!
<mojo> IF I have all photos of u guys
<lupus_> I just say it because one time a forum of a friend got hacked and I also got messages like this
* Kamion would rather not have his photo distributed on everyone's desktop, thanks
<mojo> Kamion: lol, as u wish, privacy must be respected
<Kamion> we could have jdub in his normal working-at-home clothing
<Kamion> ... or perhaps not
<lamont__r> Kamion: head and shoulders only
* jdub_ eyes the channel.
<Kamion> daniels: l-r-m 2.6.9-2 failed on i386, different way
<lamont__r> jdub: ew.  wet.
<Kamion> daniels: oh, missing build-dep on whatever provides xf86vmode.h
<elmo> Rejected: nvidia-glx-dev_1.0.6629-0ubuntu1_amd64.deb: old version (1.0.6629-0ubuntu1) in hoary >= new version (1.0.6629-0ubuntu1
<elmo> ) targeted at hoary.
<elmo> daniels: ^---
<lamont__r> daniels: are you really camm?
<Kamion> miaow
<robtaylor|mataro> mdz: you around?
<jdub_> BONG
<daniels> elmo: danke
<mjg59> daniels: Dude, you suck
* fabbione hands a cluebat to Kamion, elmo and lamont
* fabbione points the sodomotron to daniels 
<daniels> lamont__r: camm?
<lamont__r> upload, curse, repeat.
<lamont__r> daniels: nm
<robtaylor|mataro> amu: do you know if mdz's d-i livecd niceness is playable with?
<robtaylor|mataro> arch repo?
<fabbione> mjg59: do we have anything missing in the kernel?
<fabbione> like new acpi or something?
<mjg59> fabbione: There is new acpi, but I don't think any of it's needed right at the moment
<mjg59> 2.6.10 ought to be out by Christmas
<fabbione> mjg59: ok.. than i am going to put 2.6.9 in maintainance and start working on 2.6.10
* fabbione does the last feature upload for 2.6.9
<jdub_> fabbione: woo hoo!
<fabbione> jdub_: btw -5 is only one change...
<mjg59> With the exception of the craptop and Scott's thing, I've now managed working suspend to RAM on every machine I've laid hands on
<fabbione> it includes compressed loop support for the livecd
<ross> thom: what was the ipod reset command again?
<mjg59> daniels: Oh, there are various Xorg issues with StR if DRI is enabled, it seems
<fabbione> mjg59: thom tested my laptop with suspend to ram and it seems to work fine.. so you can add another one to the list
<mjg59> fabbione: What sort do you have?
<thom> ross: inner two buttons for 5 sec iirc
<thom> mjg59: did you get netapplet 1.0 packaged? i have a patch here to make it use g-s-t (from garnacho)
<mjg59> thom: Not yet
<mjg59> But, uh, my 0.99.4 packages use g-s-t
<thom> hrm, they do? gar.
<mjg59> Seriously, the only change between 0.99.4 and 1.0 is that they've removed one binary and added translations and gettext support
<mjg59> It's a 4-line diff to the code
<jdub_> ahr
<thom> righto, i'll just thump on 0.99.4
<mjg59> Haha
<thom> when daniels fixes my Xorg, anyway
<mjg59> fixmyx.org?
<ross> thom: rock, ta
<fabbione> mjg59: Compaq Armada M700
<mjg59> mjg59@tyrosine:/etc/network$ whois fixmyx.org
<mjg59> NOT FOUND
<mjg59> fabbione: Rocking
<fabbione> ALWAYS
<fabbione> actually... 2.6.9 has a broken ipv6
<fabbione> HMMM
* fabbione goes and checks the diff
<haggai> Riddell: http://www.credativ.com/~cha/kubuntu/kubuntu-start.sxi
<haggai> Riddell: don't take the logo too seriously, I just knocked it up during the previous BOF :)
<haggai> in fact, I knocked up the whole thing during the previous bof
<haggai> maybe something to do with the fact that jdub_ didn't tell me I had a bof
<jdub_> haha
<haggai> ok, he told me I had a bof, just not when
<fabbione> argh no
<fabbione> we can't pull in the changes for ipv6 easily
<fabbione> it looks like they break the ABI
<fabbione> [PATCH]  ATA over Ethernet driver for 2.6.9 <- *shrugs*
<jdub> heh
<jdub> WOO!
<fabbione> no
<fabbione> this is NOT going in
<Mithrandir> fabbione: but it's craaack
<daniels> wtf?
<fabbione> Mithrandir: i know :-)
<fabbione> i am freezinf 2.6.9 with -5
<fabbione> and start working on 2.6.10
<fabbione> so it has all the time to go upstream
<fabbione> ;)
<fabbione> CRAAAAAK
<fabbione> :P
<Q-FUNK> Can I paste about 5 lines of errors that procps gives me during installation?
<Keybuk> LAMONT!!!!!!!!!!)$*("$(*!($*("$*!_$*_!($*"!
<fabbione> Keybuk: did you find the hotplug bug?
<Keybuk> yes
<pitti> Keybuk: indeed?
<fabbione> and?
<Keybuk> pitti: as *soon* as you stood up, it did it
<pitti> I'll come down again
<fabbione> ahaha
<lamont__r> Keybuk: yes?
<Keybuk> lamont__r: please report to the ballroom for a beating
<lamont_r> ??
<lamont_r> hotplug or something else?
* lamont_r fears
<lamont_r> or is it time to string cat5 to the rooms?
<Keybuk> lamont_r: can you do something for me ...
<Keybuk> login as root, or use sudo
<Keybuk> cd /
<Keybuk> umount -l ""
<lamont_r> Keybuk: could you do me a favor?  make udev remove old dead conffiles.../
<Keybuk> only if you do me a favour and fix umount to not accept "" and then canonicalise it by prepending the current working directory :p
<lamont_r> deal
<carlos> This looks like "chain of favours"
<carlos> ;-)
* lamont_r blames upstream
<Q-FUNK> udev.. bah, just make it work. 
<Kamion> Q-FUNK: procps> file a bug
<Q-FUNK> Kamion: I wanted to first check if this was a known issue.
<Kamion> go ahead
<Kamion> fabbione: did you confirm drivers/block/cloop.o?
<Q-FUNK> Setting up procps (3.2.1-2ubuntu3) ...
<Kamion> .ko, rather
<Q-FUNK>  * Setting kernel variables...
<Q-FUNK> error: 'dev.mac_hid.mouse_button_emulation' is an unknown key
<Q-FUNK> error: 'dev.mac_hid.mouse_button2_keycode' is an unknown key
<Q-FUNK>  *ror: 'dev.mac_hid.mouse_button3_keycode' is an unknown key                                                          [fail] 
<Q-FUNK> invoke-rc.d: initscript procps.sh, action "start" failed.
<Q-FUNK> dpkg: error processing procps (--configure):
<lamont_r> fabbione: is there a 2.6.9-4 then?
<Kamion> uh, I guess that'd be my fault, let me look
<Kamion> Q-FUNK: what architecture?
<Q-FUNK> powerpc
<Kamion> huh - but not a mac?
<fabbione> Kamion: drivers/block/cloop.ko
<fabbione> lamont_r: -4 was up yesterday
<Kamion> Q-FUNK: do you have a /proc/sys/dev/mac_hid directory?
<Q-FUNK> Kamion: yes, an iMac.
<fabbione> lamont_r: i am going to upload -5 today
<Q-FUNK> Kamion: none.
<fabbione> Kamion: can you give me the next version for kernel-wedge? so i can build-dep on it?
<Kamion> fabbione: 1.25ubuntu6
<Kamion> Q-FUNK: freaky. please file a bug, assign to cjwatson@canonical.com
<fabbione> Kamion: tahnks
<Kamion> fabbione: uploaded
<fabbione> Kamion: cool
<fabbione> Kamion: uploading the kernel now.. lamont will have to depwait MUHA MUHA MUHA
<lamont_r> hrmpf
<Kamion> fabbione: s'not like kernel-wedge takes long to build ...
<fabbione> Kamion: it's not like it will hit the archive before the kernel will attempt its build :-P
<Kamion> true :)
<fabbione> oh actually it can make it
<fabbione> it's 02
<fabbione> iirc at 03 or something there is the end of the day
<fabbione> Kamion: there.. uploaded
<lamont_r> fabbione: uploads get processed every 5 minutes (:00), and cron.daily happens at :[03] 3.  You have to  upload before :00 or :30 for it to make it.
<lamont_r> note the _before_
<fabbione> yeah
<fabbione> probably Kamion managed before that
<Q-FUNK> Kamion: I'm still unsure which option to set in reportbug to assign the bug to yourself specifically.
<fabbione> i am sure i didn't
<Kamion> fabbione: no, I didn't
<fabbione> ok
<fabbione> no bigge
<Kamion> Q-FUNK: don't use reportbug, use bugzilla.ubuntu.com
<fabbione> ;)
<Q-FUNK> Kamion: ARGH.  no thanks.  I'm not gonna create yet another user on yet another free software project's own Bugzilla.
<Kamion> sorry, it's not my idea
<Kamion> we're writing something better which should allow bug submissions by e-mail
<Q-FUNK> bugzilla is fine, but the user database should be shared between projects.
<Q-FUNK> I know it's not necessarily your idea.
* Kamion wonders if that'd be legal in the UK (data protection)
<Q-FUNK> it's just that I'm about to reach the threshold where I become allergic to free software, because of the lack of integration on simple things like sharing the user/password database betwwen all bugzillas.
<azeem> eh, that's not a simple thing
<azeem> socially-wise
<Kamion> we won't be using bugzilla long-term.
<Q-FUNK> I hate to say this, but it is one simple area where Uncle Bill had the right idea with his Passport.
<Kamion> enough. we won't be using this system long-term.
<ross> yeah, passport. single point of failure
<Q-FUNK> ross: I find it a LOT preferable to the current case where users have to create an acocunt for every bugzilla on the earth.
<Q-FUNK> but that's besides the point. I'll just blog about it instead. :)
<Keybuk> lamont_r: that's my side done :)  new hal will delete that file if it exists, and also won't accept DEVNAME="" in the replacement
<Keybuk> fixed umount yet?
<lamont_r> Keybuk: debian uploaded, double checking hoary now
<jdub> azeem: ping?
<azeem> yeah?
<lamont_r> Keybuk/jdub/whomeverelse. uploaded.
<lamont_r> sadly, you'll have to wait an hour for complete bliss
<jdub> lamont_r: ;-)
<jdub> thanks dude
<jdub> azeem: your multisync packages - the binaries aren't updated?
<jdub> azeem: nothing new to update here, just wanted to check
<lamont_r> jdub: sorry for blaming it 100% on hal...
<jdub> everyone else did ;)
<azeem> jdub: well, the prior packages used to be a full sync with cvs. The ones I just announced only sync the evo2-plugin. Thus, they are 0.82_ while the others are 0.82+0.83cvs20041206 or something
<azeem> so there *are* new binaries, but they sort lower
<jdub> oh
<jdub> bong :)
<azeem> greatly simplifies the patch, though :)
<daniels> PAAANTS
<Keybuk> PAAAATCH
<jdub> azeem: the synce should use the standard naming :/
<azeem> yeah
<jdub> $ apt-cache show multisync | grep ^Version
<jdub> Version: 0.82-3.2ubuntu1
<jdub> that's right?
<azeem> yeah
<jdub> lots of evo plugin dep problems
<azeem> bah
<jdub>   libmultisync-plugin-evolution: Depends: libebook8 (>= 1.0.2) but it is not installable
<jdub>                                  Depends: libecal6 (>= 1.0.2) but it is not installable
<jdub>                                  Depends: libedata-book1 (>= 1.0.2) but it is not installable
<jdub>                                  Depends: libedata-cal5 (>= 1.0.2) but it is not installable
<jdub>                                  Depends: libedataserver3 (>= 1.0.2) but it is not installable
<jdub> 
<jdub> did you build on unstable, or...? :)
<fabbione> thom: where is located the printer?
<jdub> in the hack room
<azeem> maybe I forgot -d hoary this time, hang on
<fabbione> thanks
<azeem> jdub: bah
<jdub> um
<azeem> rebuilding now, sorry
<jdub> i can rebuild
<jdub> just pulling the source now
<azeem> cool, thanks
<pitti> ogra_: ping
<azeem> I'll update the binaries I mentioned anyway
<fabbione> jdub: how do i print a simple text file to it?
<fabbione> cups already see it (apparently)
<pitti> fabbione: don't just send the raw ascii file, it will mess up the page borders
<pitti> fabbione: I printed it from OO.o
<fabbione> ok
<pitti> fabbione: the keysigning list, I suppose? :-)
* jdub looks at azeem
<jdub> Failed to fetch http://people.debian.org/~mbanck/ubuntu-hoary/./multisync_0.82.orig.tar.gz  404 Not Found
<seb128> ah ah
<jdub> :-)
<azeem> jdub: http://archive.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/pool/universe/m/multisync/multisync_0.82.orig.tar.gz
<fabbione> pitti: yeps
<azeem> ;)
<azeem> but I'll upload it to my place for convenience
<jdub> ok, ok
<jdub> i'll just grab that
<jdub> azeem: still build-deps on old soup and gal
<azeem> ah, didn't know there was a new one
<lamont_r> fabbione: print 2 copies, eh?
<jdub> hrm
<jdub> and stuff that doesn't exist...
<azeem> like?
<jdub> libglade-dev
<lamont_r> Kamion: around for a question?
<azeem> hrm
<Kamion> lamont_r: yeah
<azeem> Note, selecting libglade0-dev instead of libglade-dev
<azeem> should it take another one?
<lamont_r> azeem: say hello to build-depending on a virtual package
<azeem> lamont_r: hey, it's not my package, I'm just trying to fix it for you guys :p
<lamont_r> it's fine like it is
<lamont_r> that is, that is a note, not an error.
<azeem> jdub seemd to imply otherwise, that's why I qouted it
<lamont_r> Kamion: elilo-installer is ftbfs... control declares it to be arch: ia64, but the package builds indep-only...
<lamont_r> what was the corner case of packages that were arch: all wrt dependencies and arch: <specific>?
<lamont_r> that is, which direction of dependencies was bad?
<Kamion> uh ... either?
<Kamion> it's only for binNMUs though isn't it?
<Kamion> unless I'm missing something
<lamont_r> how so?  i386 depends: all shouldn't be an issue, right?
<Kamion> sure will, if the depends: is (= ${Source-Version})
<lamont_r> had to do with moving into testing.  istr it was arch: all depends arch: i386-only package --> not installable on !i386
<lamont_r> or something like that
<lamont_r> multiple source packages here
<lamont_r> so no version'ed depends at all.
<Kamion> oh, right, testing special-cases i386 for validating arch: all dependencies if that's what you mean?
<Kamion> I'll fix elilo-installer, thanks
<azeem> jdub: libgal-dev and libsoup2.2-dev should be alright?
<lamont_r> I have the upload prepared, changing it to arch: all in control.
<Kamion> uh, no
<lamont_r> just wanted to make sure I wasn't on crack.
<Kamion> please don't
<lamont_r> ok
<azeem> eh
<Kamion> we actively don't want elilo-installer on other arches, it'll break stuff
<azeem> libgal2.4-dev, rather
<Kamion> lamont_r: switch debian/rules round instead
<lamont_r> ah, right.
<lamont_r> ok.
<lamont_r> should I, or do you really want it?
<Kamion> go ahead, I'll do it upstream as well
<lamont_r> ok.
<lamont_r> dannf doesn't mind?
<lamont_r> already filed the bug in debian's bts...
<Kamion> d-i's cooperatively maintained in general
<Kamion> I'll do it when I next read -boot
<lamont_r> ah, right. dannf is uploader, not maint.  my bad
<Kamion> although certainly if he wants to do it it makes life easier, since he actually has a system to upload it on ...
<lamont_r> heh
<fabbione> mdz, Kamion, elmo: can we promote silo, silo-installer, sparc-utils and genromfs to main? the first 3 packages are mandatory to boot/d-i, the last one to build world *
<fabbione> they are all for sparc so it shouldn't be a big deal
<fabbione> well genromfs is arch any...
* lamont_r uploads with hopes for the first iteration
<azeem> jdub: I've uploaded a 0.82-3.2ubuntu2 source package
<Keybuk> so now I have to teach ifup to ignore interfaces that don't exist
<azeem>    * debian/control (Build-Depends): Updated to libglade2-dev,
<azeem>      libsoup2.2-dev and libgal2.4-dev.
<Keybuk> this file is full of crack!
* Keybuk makes rude gestures at aj 
<jdub> azeem: thanks
<jdub> totem or mplayer -> http://192.168.0.109.8800/
<jdub> totem or mplayer -> http://192.168.0.109:8800/
<aj> what?
<Keybuk> illiterate programming :-/
<Keybuk> :p
<aj> you're telling ifup to bring interfaces up/down when they don't exist and you're whining when it objects to that?
<Keybuk> yes
<aj> crazy freak
<Keybuk> ifup -a whines that interfaces don't exist
<aj> lamont: poke
<Keybuk> because the modules aren't loaded yet
<Keybuk> the alternative is to remove the auto lines for them and make hotplug load all interfaces
<aj> hotplug/ifupdown interaction is a bit flakey
<Keybuk> yeah, I'm fixing it
<pitti> ogra_: you have mail
<Keybuk> well, breaking it quite heavily at the moment
* aj pokes lamont_r again
<Keybuk> but fixing is on the cards :)
<elmo> lamont's wandered off
<aj> typical
<aj> elmo: what was with the tetex nmu? did lamont really not mail the bts/maintainer?
<Keybuk> lamont summoned
<lamont_r> aj: sup?
<mdz> amu: nc 192.168.0.97 1234 | tar xvf -
<lamont_r> aj: oh that.
<lamont_r> connectivity was crap for email yesterday for me.
<lamont_r> and was having general frustration with TCP sessions in general (crappy wireless reception where I was and couldn't leave)
<lamont_r> and I fear I let the NMU get ahead of the email
<lamont_r> bts has mail...
<aj> fair enough
<lamont_r> there were mumblings in irc before and after the NMU as well.
<lamont_r> (from me that is.)
<lamont_r> and I should have really read the topic here.
<lamont_r> sigh
<lamont_r> and I apologized for my poor execution of process to the maintainer as well.
<aj> sure, i was being sceptical, not critical
<lamont_r> aj: will be more precise in my execution henceforth
<Keybuk> "lamont in unexpected NMU shocker" :p
<aj> (lamont, not know how to nmu? huh?)
<lamont_r> it was a shade too weakly ordered today.
<amu> mdz: done; thx
<lamont_r> aj: various excuses, etc, etc.  I will admit to weak ordering being pretty common, but the mail to the bts is usually right behind the upload when I do that...
<lamont_r> this one was weakly and widely ordered...  (As in woke up this morning and went 'damn.  I forgot to mail the bts last night'.)
<aj> lamont: how come you haven't setup a script that sends the mail as part of uploading?
<lamont_r> aj: was actually thinking this morning (as I uploaded util-linux) of doing a debian upload script...
<lamont_r> since uploading debian packages correctly is a pain for me now.
<lamont_r> dpkg-buildpackage -rfakeroot -S ; sbuild; mergechanges; debsign; dput
<azeem> lamont_r: sbuild in unstable has an -s option for building sourceful/binary uploads properly...
<lamont_r> azeem: I've had issues with that in the past, but may just go play with it some more
<azeem> I fixed it a while ago
<lamont_r> cool
<lamont_r> which version?  sometime before 2004.09.06?
<azeem> hmm, guess so
<azeem> not sure
<azeem> lamont_r: #239339 has a patch
<lamont_r> thanks
<haggai> any of the pygtk chaps aounrd?
<Mithrandir> incredible, ooo finished building.
<haggai> Mithrandir: congratz
<Mithrandir> didn't install successfully, though
<daniels> Mithrandir: whoops
<_rene_> hmm? what did you use? CVS HEAD?
<Mithrandir> _rene_: no, I'm hacking on the gvfs problem
<_rene_> there was a rm and cvs rm missing to a few mins
<_rene_> ah, ok
<haggai> remon: 
<haggai> oops
<haggai> _rene_: it's still -2
<_rene_> didn't know on what Mithrandir tested with, so ;-)
* Mithrandir scratches head
<_rene_> s/on //
<_rene_> args
<haggai> Mithrandir: same problem here.  install: cannot stat `tools/unxlngi4.gnomevfs.pro/lib/libtl645li.so': No such file or directory
<haggai> where are the pygtk guys hiding?
<haggai> comeon there's a whole pygtk bof happening, there's gotta be someone here already
<Mithrandir> haggai: I don't have any targets depending on tools.gnomevfs..
<haggai> Mithrandir: $(STAMP_DIR)/install-arch: debian/openoffice.org$(VER)-gnomevfs.install
<Mithrandir> haggai: you rock.
<Mithrandir> : tfheen@thosu ~/ooo/openoffice.org-1.1.3 > ldd ./tools/unxlngi4.gnomevfs.pro/lib/libtl645li.so | grep gnomevfs
<Mithrandir>         libgnomevfs-2.so.0 => /usr/lib/libgnomevfs-2.so.0 (0xb7eb8000)
<Mithrandir> : tfheen@thosu ~/ooo/openoffice.org-1.1.3 > ldd ./tools/unxlngi4.pro/lib/libtl645li.so | grep gnomevfs
<Mithrandir> : tfheen@thosu ~/ooo/openoffice.org-1.1.3 >
<haggai> oooh :)
<Keybuk> tollef statically linked openoffice?
<Keybuk> or just linked it to gnomevfs
<Mithrandir> I _stopped_ linking it to ooo
<Mithrandir> s/ooo/gvfs
<Mithrandir> so elmo won't cry.
<Mithrandir> not much, at least.
<Keybuk> aww
<Keybuk> no love
<Mithrandir> the ooo-bin shouldn't link to gvfs, the ooo-gnomevfs should
<Mithrandir> right now, both does.
<Mithrandir> debuild -S for ooo takes more time thank building binaries for most other packages I maintain.
* Keybuk sings the "It's all so crackful" song
<Mithrandir> debuild -S on OOO takes approximately one apache2.
<_rene_> Mithrandir: hehe
<_rene_> I usually keep two identical trees around when doing uploads
<Mithrandir> I'm serious.
<_rene_> one for the source, one for the binaries
<Mithrandir> and apache is slooooow
<_rene_> build the binaries -> works -> checkin -> cvs up -> debuild -S -> mergechanges
<_rene_> roughly that way
<_rene_> so I don't have to build the sourcepkg over and over ;-)
<Mithrandir> and I'm after a tiny patch for you/chris
<daniels> we will have the quickest. boot. ever.
<Mithrandir> slooooow.
<daniels> make openoffice load quicker
<Mithrandir> make it diff quicker.
<Mithrandir> I don't care about loading, I just want to diff it. :P
<haggai> _rene_: we had a brainstorming session yesterday about getting OOo to load quicker
<haggai> _rene_: keybuk reckons we'd be far better if we linked everything into 1 huuge lib
<_rene_> isn't there some option which created one binary?
<haggai> _rene_: he says since its memmapped it won't take up swap or memory
<_rene_> s/ed/es/
<_rene_> but that would hurt external extensions
<haggai> _rene_: I don't think so, only an option to create a large zip file for install instead of the little ones
<haggai> _rene_: why would it hurt them?
<_rene_> since they often link against lib*645??.so
<haggai> well we could leave the libs around if we wanted, just leave them pretty empty
<tim1> hello
<tim1> i need scrnsaver.h to compile beagle, packages.debian.org says it is in the 'xlibs-devel' package, but the ubuntu package doesn't seem to contain that file
<_rene_> xlibs-static-dev (on sarge)
<_rene_> you probably looked in woody. don't :)
<tim1> i have both installed
<tim1> isn't in there either
<Mithrandir> _rene_, haggai: http://err.no/patches/openoffice-gnomevfs-link.diff
<haggai> tim1: search the Contents.gz files in the ftp archive
<haggai> Mithrandir: cheers
<Mithrandir> haggai: does it look ok to you?
<_rene_> didn't we want to make that logic reversed?
<haggai> _rene_: yes, that's why I said to you it needs work before checking in
* haggai looks for someone to help with openoffice
<_rene_> ah, ok
<haggai> what was it, waitresses? 
<Mithrandir> haggai: does it come with an eight-way dual-core opteron system with 48GB memory and 15k RPM SCSI disks?
<Mithrandir> because else, people will die of old age before it finishes compiling
<haggai> Mithrandir: uh, sure.  But I'll not tell you where to find it in the huuuge project hehe
<Mithrandir> heh
<thom> lala, 36 seconds with old hotplug
<daniels> THIRTY-SIX.
<jordi> daniels: rock
<tim1> haggai: the contents.gz list it in xlibs-static-dev
<tim1> but i have that one installed
<tim1> still mssing ..
<daniels> tim1: libxss-dev
<tim1> daniels: thanks very much, i think that's it
<Mithrandir> Keybuk: what is the 1.10 arch branch in your repo?
<Keybuk> scott@netsplit.com--2004/dpkg--stable--1.10
<Mithrandir> thx
<jdub> http://192.168.0.93:8800/
<ross> oh oh oh
<ross> i wonder what is there
<jdub> flumotion stream :)
<daniels> jdub: ogg vorbis stream of the bof?
<jdub> theora
<jdub> no sound
<Mithrandir> rob taylor, mako, amaya and helix
<ross> jdub: rock! make it external
<Mithrandir> jdub: what kind of cam is it you have?
<daniels> jdub: NICE!
<ross> ross: and take it to the pub
<jdub> Mithrandir: logitech quickcam
<jdub> ross: trying
<Mithrandir> jdub: does it come with the laptop screen thing by default?
<jdub> yeah
<jdub> handy
<Mithrandir> neat
<Mithrandir> jdub: the streaming thing is packaged?
<haggai> waah I only see a blue screen
<jdub> Mithrandir: flumotion
<jdub> haggai: what are you using to watch the stream?
<haggai> jdub: totem
<jdahlin> hmm, I can't get openoffice to run
<jdub> gstreamer or xine?
<Mithrandir> jdub: packaged? :)
<jdub> Mithrandir: ... as flumotion :)
* jdahlin looks at mdz 
<Mithrandir> oh, ok
<jdub> jdahlin: look at haggai :-)
* haggai looks at his blue screen
<jdahlin> jdub: oh, I thought the last entry in the changelog is the maintainer applied even to ubuntu
<jdub> jdahlin: it does, but haggai is the MAIN MAN
<haggai> jdahlin: if you'd like some help you need to be more specific please
* Mithrandir gets display corruption from totem
<jdub> haggai: for totem-gstreamer, you can look at jdahlin 
* jdub snickers.
* haggai grins
<jdahlin> haggai: I removed an old .sversionrc and .openoffice*, but it still fails to startup
<tseng> are you dudes looking for bug reports against swsusp now?
<jdub> haggai: probably worth trying totem-xine
<tseng> or just a test run
<jdahlin> haggai: complaining that I have no entry for 1.1.3 in .sversionrc
<jdub> tseng: for 2.6.9 kernels? yeah!
<tseng> ya
<jdahlin> BBB@#gstreamer is the perfect guy for totem-gstreamer
* tseng hits bugzilla
<haggai> jdub: what console output do you get?  And are there any soffice.bin processes hanging around?
<haggai> uuh
<haggai> jdahlin: 
<haggai> sorry I was too lazy to type enough
<haggai> I have totem-gstreamer installed
<jdahlin> $ openoffice 
<jdahlin> OpenOffice.org for Debian - see /usr/share/doc/openoffice.org/README.Debian.gz
<jdahlin> running openoffice.org setup...
<jdahlin> Setup did not complete properly - cannot find an entry in ~/.sversionrc
<jdub> haggai: yeah, try totem-xine
<jdahlin> that's what I get
<haggai> jdahlin: oh cool that breaks ubuntu-desktop
<haggai> arrgh
<haggai> that was for jdub
<jdahlin> seems like libtheora is broken on amd64 aswell
<haggai> jdahlin: what's in the setup logfile under .openoffice?
<jdahlin> haggai: everything seems fine in there
<haggai> jdahlin: and you don't have an .sversionrc?
<jdahlin> haggai: well I had, but README.Debian told me to remove it
<jdahlin> so, no I don't
<haggai> jdahlin: but the 'running openoffice.org setup...' step should recreate it
<jdahlin> haggai: what do I need to put in the file?
<haggai> jdahlin: nothing, OOo makes it
<haggai> I still get a blue screen, even with totem-xine
<jdahlin> haggai: but to do it manually I mean
<jdahlin> jdub: I need streaming love tomorrow
<haggai> jdahlin: you never need to do it manually
<haggai> jdahlin: and you say setup.log is ok :-/
<haggai> ffice.org setup...' step should recreate it
<haggai> sorry
<haggai> [Versions] 
<haggai> OpenOffice.org 1.1.3=file:///home/chris/.openoffice/1.1.1
<jdahlin> OK  set profile item: file:///home/jdahlin/.sversionrc, Versions, OpenOffice.org 1.1.2, file:///home/jdahlin/.openoff
<jdahlin> ice/1.1.3
<haggai> but as I said, you never need to create it by hand
<haggai> versions 1.1.2??
<jdahlin> hmm, it's created now
<haggai> do you have package skew?
<jdahlin> s/1.1.2/1.1.3/ in .sversionrc fixes it
<jdahlin> yeah, I seem to have
<jdahlin> openoffice.org-bin is 1.1.2
<jdahlin> the rest seems to be 1.1.3
<jdahlin> except documentation, which is 1.1
<haggai> jdahlin: ok, those deps should be tightened up then.  Thanks
<haggai> Package: openoffice.org
<jdahlin> haggai: you're welcome. ping me if you want me to test a new version
<haggai> Depends: openoffice.org-debian-files (>> 1.1.2+1.1.3), openoffice.org-bin (>> 1.1.2+1.1.3)
<haggai> jdahlin: in the source it's ok
* haggai scratches head
<jdahlin> I installed warty here and upgraded to hoary
<haggai> but the hoary version of openoffice.org has the correct depends
<haggai> so you shouldn't be able to have that happen
<jdahlin> I did the upgrade 5 days ago if that matters
<haggai> well, if you upgrade from an unstable distro you should always check for new versions...
<haggai> I don't think in this case it would matter, though
* Mithrandir uploads openoffice.org
<Q-FUNK> Kamion: http://bugs.an9.org  this is the solution to the Bugzilla login. :)
<jordi> jdahlin: are you around the conference now?
<jdahlin> jordi: yeah
<jordi> jdahlin: if so, 1) where, I want to meet you :p  and 2) your room mate is here and I guess needs a key. :)
<jdahlin> jordi: I'm in the main hall
<jordi> cristal?
<jordi> or downstairs?
<jdahlin> downstairs
* jordi goes downstairs. :)
<jordi> err, not going anywhere actually :P
<mdz> haggai: that's an openoffice.org-amd64 problem
<Mithrandir> Keybuk: can you star-merge off tfheen@raw.no--2004/dpkg--main--1.10 ?  It has a few changes for some wishlist bug in dpkg
<Mithrandir> Keybuk: (and I want to test that I haven't screwed up)
<Mithrandir> mdz: what's an ooo-amd64 problem?
<mjg59> thom: How long with shinyhotplug?
<haggai> mdz: aah
<haggai> Mithrandir: version skew
<Simira> can anyone poke Mithrandir? Or are you signing now?
<jordi> signing right now.
<jordi> Just started, so it will take a while.
<jordi> I'll tell him
<Simira> ok
<Simira> thanks
<Simira> where's Erinn?
<jordi> not keysigning, not sure
<jordi> upstairs probably.
<Simira> ok
<Simira> no she's not gonna join the signing, I know. She should be online!
<jordi> she has no lappy for herself tho
<Simira> huh... og
<Simira> do you know if Tollef have been to the restaurant where I lost my cam?
<jordi> I have no idea. Want me to ask him?
<jordi> k
<Simira> I'lll do it when he comes online
<jordi> he went there, but had not found it, and says he'll go again with me so I can talk to them properly.
<Simira> ok, that'd be great, I'd really appreciate it
<jordi> I guess we'll have a look at dinner time.
<Simira> yep
<Simira> sounds sensible
<Simira> why's everone leaving?
<jordi> No idea. Both of them aren't in the keysign.
<Treenaks> hi everyone :)
* Treenaks live from Barcelona Airport, gate M3 :)
<Simira> hi Treenaks 
<Treenaks> hi Simira 
<sivang> Treenaks : already in home?
<Treenaks> sivang: no.. I mis-calculated a bit
<Treenaks> sivang: so I'm still in Spain
<Treenaks> sivang: the HP/Intel people at gate M3 were so nice NOT to set a WEP key or MAC access list ;)
<sivang> Treenaks : oh :-/
<Treenaks> sivang: I'll board my plane in an hour
<Treenaks> it's not too bad
<Treenaks> I have enough books with me :)
<sivang> oh that's good :)
<Treenaks> sivang: pictures on my site :)
<sivang> Treenaks : as alwasy :)
<Treenaks> sivang: ;)
<Simira> so, there... long phone call home to assure I've had a great time :)
<Simira> got your christmas-gift, Treenaks ? Or was it for birthday...?
<Treenaks> Simira: birthday, and no :(
<Simira> sivang: hey. Still having a good time? How was the Deban-women bof?
<Treenaks> don't know what to buy
<Treenaks> but I'll think of something in Amsterdam or something
<Treenaks> Simira: women? there were women at the conf? ;)
<sivang> Simira : sure! I didn't attend it
<Simira> Treenaks: Amsterdam is nice that way. You have to make her write a list with wishes and measures for clothes and stuff! Tell her that else, you can't buy her nice surprises.
<Simira> sivang: ok
<Treenaks> Simira: I'm useless buying clothes anyway :)
<Treenaks> Simira: I'll stick with something vaguely useful
<Simira> Treenaks: buy her some sexy underwear! Tollef did to me :) (ok, I picked it, but...)
<Treenaks> Simira: tollef is not your brother
<Simira> right, it was your sister, not your girlfriend... my bad
<Treenaks> I'll find something
<Treenaks> I know a cool store in Amsterdam that sells all kinds of games
<Simira> cool
<Treenaks> and huge 20x20cm fluffy dice 8)
<Treenaks> uh
<Treenaks> 20x20x20cm
<Simira> yes, they've gotten those here as well
<Simira> I'm gonna get a whole set
<Treenaks> they're hell to roll, but it works :)
<Simira> hehe
<Simira> they're supposed to hang in the mirror on your car!
<Treenaks> they're a bit too large for that
<Treenaks> you wouldn't be able to see a thing ;)
<Simira> heh
<Simira> well, the small ones are all right
<Treenaks> they also have lots of weird cool puzzles
<Treenaks> so I might go for one of those
<Treenaks> anyway
<Treenaks> my laptop is starting to beep annoyingly
<Simira> ouch
<Treenaks> back in ~ 3 hours ;)
<Simira> have a nice trip home then
<Treenaks> thanks :)
<Simira> (I didn't)
<Treenaks> (why not?)
<sjoerd> Treenaks: nice flight ;)
<Simira> Treenaks: delays and stuff
<Treenaks> Simira: ah.. too bad
<Treenaks> sjoerd: dankjewel :)
<Treenaks> *shutdown -h now*
<Simira> sjoerd :)
<Simira> robtaylor: hey, are people done eating?
<fabbione>          lamont_r the AP in the room is really bad
<fabbione> a lot of pkts loss
<Mithrandir> fabbione: worksforme
<fabbione> Mithrandir : very bad here in 132
<Mithrandir> haggai: what kind of version skew?
<fabbione> it seems better now
<carlos> fabbione: you have it close, it's in daf's room
<sladen> fabbione: it was non-existant in 131
#ubuntu-devel 2004-12-22
* Treenaks finally got home
<dasenjo> I think I found a bug .. 
<dasenjo> Open nautilus in browse mode, goto Filesystem ...
<dasenjo> and go to /dev
<dasenjo> gamin takes the prcessor to the top .. 
<Treenaks> not here
<sjoerd> Treenaks: had a good flight ?
<Treenaks> sjoerd: yeah
<Treenaks> but now firefox seems b0rken
<Treenaks> is that known?
<sjoerd> cool
<Treenaks> it starts fine
<Treenaks> everything works
<Treenaks> except opening URLs
<Treenaks> lynx works
<Treenaks> Who's the scapegoat for today?
<jdub> haggai: GO GO GO! :-) :-) :-)
<jordi> jdub: you're at your room?
<pasc> right
<pasc> i'm off
<pasc> wait for me for lunch
<pasc> ;-)
<eruin> WHAT have you guys done in the latest updates?
<eruin> all my programs are suddenly lightning fast :D
<Mithrandir> haggai: the problem with the build seems to be because of the non-stampdir solution, no?
<Simira> mornin people
<Mithrandir> hi simira
<Treenaks> Good morning Norway & Spain :)
<Simira> Mornin Netherlands
<pitti> fabbione: may I bug you about the gpg sign batch script?
<Treenaks> morning
<Mithrandir> daniels: your x40-l33tn3ss scriptz doesn't make the x40 handle hotplugging batteries.
<Simira> hm... my browser suddenly doesn't work. After the last update, that is. Shall I restart something?
<Treenaks> Simira: firefox?
<Treenaks> I have that too
<Simira> no, the filebrowser... *try restart nautilus*
<Treenaks> Simira: that's weird then
* Treenaks reboots to see if that fixes the firefox problem
<Simira> hm... but how do I restart nautilus?
<Simira> btw... how do I mount a smb-partition?
<Treenaks> killall nautilus
<Treenaks> should restart it
<Treenaks> and smb -> see the "File" menu ("Connect to server")
<Simira> ok
<Q-FUNK> Kamion: found the answer:  it's trying to access devices that don't exist on this hardware.
<Q-FUNK> Kamion: there is no mouse emulation on this iMac, because it's not an ADB-based model, while the emulation requires enabling ADB support.
<daniels> Mithrandir: probably not, given I only have one
<Mithrandir> pft, excuses.
<pitti> Kamion: around?
<Mithrandir> sladen: prod?
<pitti> Hi seb128 
<seb128> hey pitti 
<Simira> seb128: how do I import MSOutlook .csv address book in Evolution?
<Q-FUNK> hiya seb128 :)
<seb128> File->Import ?
<Simira> seb128: it wont :-/
<seb128> what does it says ?
<Mithrandir> Simira: whack it with a big hammer?
<seb128> single file -> VCard in the lst
<seb128> list
<Simira> error loading simira.cvs
<Simira> .csv
<Simira> (VCard doesn't give up .csv as a filetype)
<Q-FUNK> ah btw, why isn't "suede-icons" available in Hoary's repository?
<Q-FUNK> vcf
<Simira> "no importer available for this file type" if I choos "Automatic"
<seb128> Simira, do you a non-private vcf file so I can test that on my box ?
<Simira> seb128: it's .csv, not vcf
<Simira> that might be the problem
<seb128> hum
<seb128> oh
<Mithrandir> Simira: open it in a text editor and take a look?
<Simira> Mithrandir: huh?
<Mithrandir> Simira: right click, open in text editor and check whether it's .csv or .vcf?
<seb128> hum, I don't know if that's supported
<Simira> seb128: obviously not. OE address books are either -wab or .csv
<seb128> Simira, you can try /usr/lib/evolution/2.2/csv2vcard
<seb128> should convert it to a vcard
<seb128> but I've not tried myself, dunno if that works fine or not
<Simira> hm, ok
<Simira> it seems to work
<seb128> cool
<Simira> shit
<Simira> it kinda didn't work
<Simira> I've just got a lots of contacts named "Title FirstName Middle Name Last Name"
<Mithrandir> *chuckle*
<Simira> don't laugh! I want my contacts!
<Treenaks> Mithrandir: you're one of them? :)
<Simira> Else I'll have to stick to Windows completely, you know
<seb128> outlook is not able to export the contacts in a decent format ?
<Treenaks> seb128: no
* Treenaks tried
<Treenaks> not even Nokia can export good vcards
<Simira> seb128: cvs = comma separated format
<Simira> should be good enough
<Mithrandir> Treenaks: hm?  One of whom?
<Simira> everyone else imports them easily enough
<Treenaks> and I've seen the standard.. your DOG should be able to write good vcards.. that's how easy it is
<Treenaks> Mithrandir: FirstName MiddleName LastName
<Mithrandir> Treenaks: no idea.
<Simira> probably at least two of them
<Simira> ok, so how do I delete all of my misfostered contacts?
<remon> Hello all, I was wondering if your guys are working on an administration tool for ubuntu to configure the distribution to your needs?
<remon> Or missed I something obvious ?
<Simira> uh
<Simira> apparently
<remon> the reason why I'm wondering is due I saw some threads on debian-desktop about porting yast2 to debian....
<remon> which is a rather huge task, but perhaps it's something ubuntu can profit from?
<haggai> Riddell: /join #kubuntu-devel
<teo> hi
<Simira> hi there
<fabbione> hey guys
<fabbione> who is up for a BCN bof
<fabbione> ?
<pitti> fabbione: me
* sjoerd would like to go too
<pitti> fabbione: when you want to go?
<fabbione> pitti: around 3 or 4?
<fabbione> or something like that
<sjoerd> sounds fine to me
<pitti> fabbione: 3 would be better, it gets too late otherwise
<fabbione> pitti: i don't want to go around play the turist
<seb128> perhaps me, not sure with the pygtk bof 
<fabbione> i want to go there and party
<pitti> fabbione: oh, I want to see the city :-)
<fabbione> that means having 1 hour or 2 of sleep before that
<seb128> me too
<pitti> fabbione: enjoy
<fabbione> pitti: i plan to see the city tomorrow
<pitti> fabbione: works for me, too :-)
<seb128> I'll go tomorrow so
<lamont_r> fabbione: you around?
<fabbione> yes
<fabbione> lamont_r: i am in the quiet not so quiet room ;)
<fabbione> anything i can do?
<lamont_r> I just sent you mail wrt gnu-smalltalk
<fabbione> i read that... thanks
<fabbione> but i think the guy is basically MIA
<fabbione> i haven't heard from him since than
<fabbione> but giving it a shot isn't bad
<fabbione> iirc there was a kernel problem
<fabbione> that was preventing the build on the buildd
<fabbione> AND DIA A LITTLE MORE
<fabbione> when the unnamed feelings....
<fabbione> TAKES ME AWAY!
<pitti> fabbione: oh, if you are still awake, could you please mail me the gpg script?
<fabbione> seb128: nautilus & co aren't installable.. do you know that?
<fabbione> pitti: yes of course
<fabbione> AND DIE DIE A LITTLE MOREEEEE
<fabbione> pitti@c.c ?
<pitti> fabbione: should work
<fabbione> ok
<pitti> fabbione: never tried it, I always use martin.pitt@
<fabbione> it should be on the way
<fabbione> pitti: clearly is not signed
<fabbione> you need to audit the code anyway
<fabbione> and change it for your needs
<seb128> fabbione, garh, no
<pitti> fabbione: I will, thanks
<seb128> who broke them ?
<fabbione> Diagnostic-Code: X-Postfix; host fiordland.warthogs.hbd.com[82.211.81.145] 
<fabbione>     said: 550 <pitti@canonical.com>: Recipient address rejected: User unknown
<pitti> fabbione: however, I did not yet get the mail
<pitti> fabbione: darn; martin@piware.de is the fastest
<fabbione> seb128: no ide...
<seb128> what's the problem exactly ?
<fabbione> pitti: there
<pitti> fabbione: got it, thanks a lot
<Kamion> pitti: yo?
<daniels> pitti: btw, when you bump l-r-m, you *must* bump nvidiaminor and atiminor in debian/rules
<daniels> else the uploads get rejected
<fabbione> seb128: basically some dependecies are broken and tries to remove ubuntu-desktop and other stuff
<daniels> i'm about to upload another to repair that
<pitti> daniels: argh
<pitti> Kamion: I wanted to ask you whether I shall fix l-r-m myself
<fabbione> JEEEEEEEEE
<fabbione> another l-r-m upload?
<seb128> fabbione, I need details, I've nautilus and ubuntu-desktop and no problem here
<fabbione> you guys are teh suck :P
<pitti> Kamion: but in the meantime I already did it
* fabbione hides
<pitti> daniels: okay, I will do another upload; or do you want to fix that yourselves?
<fabbione> seb128: i am upgrading right now.. so need to wait a few secs
<daniels> pitti: it's alright, I'll take care of it
<pitti> daniels: okay, thanks
<seb128> WHAT HAVE YOU DONE TO MY GNOME YOU FREAKS
<pitti> daniels: it was just very bad seeing my notebook not booting any more :-/
<fabbione> seb128: KILL THEM ALL!
<seb128> (and no I'm not going to fix the f****ing panel today)
<lamont_r> seb128: does that mean that thom/keybuk did some uploads?
* fabbione hands a sodomotron to seb128 
<seb128> perhaps that's why they are hidding ? :)
<seb128> thanks fabbione :)
<fabbione> seb128: that implies that when you are pissed off, you need to use the caps lock :-)
<seb128> YEAH
<Kamion> pitti: fix?
* pitti already sees gnome-panel haunting seb128 while he is asleep
<pitti> Kamion: l-r-m-powerpc depended on the power3 kernel
<fabbione> nautilus deps on libnautilus-extensions
<Kamion> pitti: oh
<fabbione> nautilus-cd-burner depends on libnautilus2-2 (>= 2.7.1)
<seb128> I've fixed that like 3 days ago
<pitti> Kamion: I already fixed the deps, but forgot to bump the version number of other packages; daniels will fix that, too
<seb128> which arch is that ?
<fabbione>  *=- Opt libs     libnautilus2                                                  
<fabbione> nautilus conflicts with libnautilus2-2
<fabbione> seb128: i386 from today update
<Kamion> pitti: hm, not in the linux-meta I uploaded? I guess you mean in l-r-m itself
<jdub> reminder, meeting simulcast in #ubuntu-meeting
<fabbione> i think i saw this like for 2 days
<pitti> Kamion: I initially thought the error was in -meta, that's why I pinged you
<fabbione> jdub: what's that?
<pitti> Kamion: but the error was really in l-r-m
<jdub> fabbione: me typing what people are saying :)
<seb128> fabbione, apt-cache show nautilus ?
<fabbione> ahhh
<pitti> Kamion: sorry for disturbing
<fabbione> Version: 2.9.1-0ubuntu2
<fabbione> seb128: do you need anything particular?
<seb128> the Depends
<fabbione> Depends: libart-2.0-2 (>= 2.3.16), libatk1.0-0 (>= 1.9.0), libaudiofile0 (>= 0.2.3-4), libbonobo2-0 (>= 2.8.0), libbonoboui2-0 (>= 2.5.4), libc6 (>= 2.3.2.ds1-4), libeel2-2 (>= 2.9.1), libesd0 (>= 0.2.29-1) | libesd-alsa0 (>= 0.2.29-1), libexif10, libgail-common (>= 1.6.6), libgail17 (>= 1.6.6), libgconf2-4 (>= 2.7.3.1), libglade2-0 (>= 1:2.3.6), libglib2.0-0 (>= 2.5.5), libgnome-desktop-2 (>= 2.8.0), libgnome2-0 (>= 2.8.0), libgn
<fabbione> argh
<fabbione> it doesn't fit in one line
<fabbione> let's try this other way
<fabbione> seb128: the last one is desktop-file-utils
<seb128> just do 2 copy/paste
<fabbione> check in pvt message
<Kamion> pitti: ok
<seb128> fabbione, the interesting part is libnautilus*
<fabbione> libnautilus2-2 (>= 2.7.1)
<seb128> Version: 2.9.1-0ubuntu4
<fabbione> perhaps you forgot to bump the build-dep?
<seb128> here
<fabbione> hmmm
<seb128>  *** 2.9.1-0ubuntu4 0
<seb128>         500 http://archive.ubuntu.com hoary/main Packages
<seb128> WTF
<seb128> fabbione, apt-cache policy nautilus ?
<fabbione> seb128: if i try to upgrade to that version it tries to remove ubuntu-desktop
<seb128> why ?
<seb128> apt-cache policy nautilus-cd-burner ?
<fabbione> i wrote it before
<fabbione> nautilus-cd-burner:
<fabbione>   Installed: 2.8.6-0ubuntu1
<fabbione>   Candidate: 2.8.6-0ubuntu2
<fabbione>   Version Table:
<fabbione>      2.8.6-0ubuntu2 0
<fabbione>         500 http://mataro.ubuntu.com hoary/main Packages
<fabbione>  *** 2.8.6-0ubuntu1 0
<fabbione>         100 /var/lib/dpkg/status
* fabbione wonders
<seb128> apt-get install nautilus nautilus-cd-burner ?
<fabbione> whops
<seb128> what ?
* fabbione feels retarded
* fabbione IS retared
<fabbione> seb128: you get to win a beer in BCN 
<seb128> cool :)
<seb128> what was the problem ? 
<fabbione> that i did put on hold the packages 2/3 days ago because of this problem
<seb128> oh ok
<fabbione> and i forgot to tell apt to upgrade both of them
<fabbione> as i said
<fabbione> i am retarded
<seb128> perhaps you could use some sleep ?
<fabbione> that's for sure
<fabbione> but i think i am going to enjoy all the day
<fabbione> and crash either tomorrow night
<robtaylor_> fabbione, i thought you were sleeping in preparation?
<fabbione> or something like that
<fabbione> in preparation for what?
<fabbione> it's always party time man ;)
<fabbione> i am actually fixing linux-source-2.6.9
<fabbione> but i need to wait a full build this time
<fabbione> that kinda suck hard
<robtaylor_> gah!
<fabbione> robtaylor: do you have access to your emails?
<fabbione> rob?
<robtaylor_> fabbione, yep, why?
<robtaylor_> got your signature
<robtaylor_> fabbione, why is there both a linux-source-2.6.9 and kernel-source-2.6.9 ?
<fabbione> robtaylor: the second one is from debian
<fabbione> robtaylor: thanks for checking. i wasn't 100% sure about the mailgw over here
<carlos> robtaylor: ping?
<fabbione> guys i am off to get some sleep
<fabbione> should we meet around 4pm at the hall of the hotel?
* Simira leaves to go to Tollefs apartment and make dinner for her sister and sister's new boyfriend
<Simira> have fun guys!
<Treenaks> Simira: good luck
<jordi> Hey Simira!
<Q-FUNK> Kamion: btw, did you read the scroll-back buffer already? I found out why I got that mouse emulation bug.
<Simira> hi and bye, jordi :)
<Kamion> Q-FUNK: yes, saw it, thanks
<jordi> Simira: tollef will tell you. Some assholes got your camera and rushed out of the restaurant.
<Simira> jordi: he did. I just send a form to my insurance-company. :(
<Kamion> dunno how to solve it; I guess we'll have to move those sysctls into the init script or something and conditionalise them more
<Q-FUNK> Kamion: it's a case of relying upin the presence of features that might not be there, because ADB is only ever use on laptops, when it comes to recent macs.
<Kamion> you don't need to explain the issue any further; I understand it now :)
<Simira> jordi: thanks for trying, anyway
<Q-FUNK> Kamion: say... when can we expect fixed packages? ;)
<Kamion> but fixing it requires changing the way we do things at the moment, because right now those variables are just set in sysctl.conf which doesn't have conditionals
<Kamion> Q-FUNK: dude, you're not my boss :)
<daniels> Q-FUNK: you might note that it's a saturday afternoon, and it's a sunny one at that
<Kamion> ... and therefore I'm buggering off into Barcelona soon
<Q-FUNK> it's pretty rainy up here, actually, but fair enough. :)
<daniels> yeah
<daniels> i'm hitting the beach in a bit
* Kamion needs to do Christmas shopping
<daniels> Kamion: you too, eh :\
<Q-FUNK> Christmas stopping!  Brilliant!!! :D
<daniels> Kamion: given that I arrive at 6am on Christmas Eve, I figure I'd better get all my shopping done now
<daniels> Kamion: rather than battling immense crowds when it's 30 or 40 degrees and I'm tired and jetlagged and very, very sore and annoyed
<Q-FUNK> Kamion: well, I was just asking when, since it's the only item left that's stopping me from installing on this iMac. all my x86 already is on ubuntu.
<Kamion> Q-FUNK: next week or two I guess. busy here ...
<Q-FUNK> Kamion: fair enough. :)
<Treenaks> daniels: will other X drivers be fixed as well
<Treenaks> daniels: or only your leet x40 hacked driver? :)
<daniels> Treenaks: the main wins were in the loader
<daniels> Treenaks: so that's totally global, but yeah, my i830_driver stuff will probably never see the light of day
<daniels> i can see it causing problems
<sladen> amazing, the only laptop where *all* the ibm-acpi options work  ...is the X40
<Kamion> Q-FUNK: we've really changed too much for that plan to work
<daniels> sladen: wot a shock :)
<sivang> hey all
<Treenaks> hey siv
<Treenaks> sivang: your key is in the mail :)
<sivang> Treenaks : huh?
<sivang> Treenaks : my public key?
<Treenaks> sivang: yes
<sivang> Treenaks : Thanks!
<Treenaks> sivang: I could've mailed you your private key, but then you'd know I have it
<sivang> Treenanks : jokes jokes... :)
<jordi> Q-FUNK: it seems that only now my government is starting to consider the idea of doing collaboration with Linex and Guadalinex.
<jordi> The main problem is, believe it or not, is that the Linex and Guadalinex Spanish regions (Extremadura and Andalucia) are left wing, my local govt is right wing.
<Q-FUNK> jordi: but what is at the core of the political unwillingess to collaborate and instead end up with some many reginal distros within spain?
<Q-FUNK> so, political as in political party?  _that_ is what is preventing uniformization and collaboration within spain?
* jordi nods sadly..
<jordi> should be getting better now
<jordi> I sense they are stopping (right wing) being total dickheads.
<Q-FUNK> what exactly is preventing the package selection and defaults to be common, but the language selection between basque, castillian and other languages be at the installer?
<jordi> oh, ok. There's some differences in the materials in Basque and Valnecian schools anyway.
<jordi> So it can't be exactly the same list, of cours.e
<jordi> Basque probably needs some tools to make kids learn Basque, etc.
<Q-FUNK> I'm trying to understand and compare, because I see a lot of politically-motivated "my own distro" stuff taking place in the Baltics and I'm wondering if the reasons are the same.
<jordi> but yeah, we should be trying to have a base list of stuff, and it's not happening now globally in Spain because there is no communication, or it is being blocked by the politicians.
<jordi> In my case, I'm trying to get some funds to pay a GNOME hacker to finish up Mergeant so we have a GNOME tool to manage databases and stuff.
<jordi> And some other guy that puts time on libburn/coaster or whatever.
<Q-FUNK> as for basque schooling, couldn't the base CD include localized SkoolLinux for all of Spain's main languages?
<jordi> Only now they are realising it'll be so much cheaper to do it in collaboration with the rest...
<Q-FUNK> in the Baltics, the urge to do their own distro is to show that they have any IT skills in their "small" country, by making a _local_ Linux distro.
<Q-FUNK> political importance on home-brew aspect and on NLS support, to save minority languages recently rescaped from the Soviet hell.
<jordi> gotta shutdown, battery at 4%
<sladen> jordi: feh, I run my battery to about -10%
<sladen> I just wish the drivers would accept that I /want/ to do that and not power off at 0% or 3%
* sivang would like to see a similar event , maybe not a full conference but a govmt. ubuntu involvement in Israel.
<sivang> being such a small country, a size of an average city in europ/US , it would be fairly easy to unify and collaborate :)
<daniels> er, getting into israel wouldn't be the easiest thing ever, i'd imagine
<daniels> (the uk and spain are both rather easy to get into; the us not nearly as much, and i'd imagine israel is right down near the bottom of the list)
<sladen> fabbione: what's the chance getting  hostap  drivers used (or at least built) by default instead of  kernel/orinoco  ?
<daniels> (australia is very easy to get into also)
<sivang> daniels : why do you think so?
* daniels punts it to /msg due to off-topicness.
* sivang nods
<ogra> haggai: amu thinks you should come down in the crystal room....
<ericf> I mailed to ubuntu-users about pdf readers for ubuntu (gpdf), and heard upstream was working on integrating eog, gpdf, etc for a MacOS-Preview-like app
<ericf> I said gpdf often didn't display a pdf well, while gnome-ghostview did
<ericf> what is the advantage of gpdf over ggv?
<sladen> ericf: they're fundementually different.  gpdf uses bits of xpdf (a PDF engine) and ggv uses Ghostscript (a Postscript engine)
<ericf> sladen: I see. But often I have a pdf that can't be opened by gpdf, but is good readable by both ggv and xpdf
<ericf> that's why I don't really like gpdf... But the gpdf/xpdf approach of reading pdf's is considered superior over ggv's?
<sladen> ericf: that's because the gpdf people made the unfortunately decesion to replace the xpdf font-infrastucture with the gtk+ stack.  Ghostscript (as Postscript 3 compliant RIP) renders PDF
<ericf> I see. Well, I have the impression the gtk+-stack doesn't do a very good job here. But is it correct that this is being worked on and this will be fixed?
<eruin> anyone else having a non-working gnome desktop in current?
<ericf> Because I don't know much about pdf rendering, but I don't understand gnome ships gpdf instead of ggv when the former so often fails
<eruin> my bottom panel kind of works (though the desktop chooser shows muine running while the app list doesn't), the top panel is officially dead, and nautilus doesn't run and spits out no error
<ericf> eruin: log out of X, and check if the panel is still running as your user
<ericf> that's what experienced once
<ericf> so log out everything, log in as root in tty1 (non-graphical), do `ps aux | grep eruin`, (if eruin is you username) and see if there are still panels running
<eruin> this is right after a reboot
<eruin> ;/
<eruin> I've found the last few updates to be sour, really
<eruin> last time this happened it just solved itself after a reboot, but now that doesn't seem to work either
<eruin> cedega is also fscked, but I think that's probably due to me using the nvidia installer instead of nvidia-glx
<ericf> it could be that the updates are bad indeed... You can downgrade packages by installing them with `dpkg -i /var/cache/apt/archives/package.deb`, or wait for better updates
<ericf> but maybe some developer here can say something wiser about this situation
<eruin> I'll reinstall NV drivers now just to check if that might have anything to do with it at all
<eruin> brb'
<Kyaneos> hi
<eruin> ericf: a reinstall of the nvidia 6629-drivers sorted my issues.
<haggai> woohoo
<haggai> the network's back
* mjg59 reads the SuSE acpi management scripts
* mjg59 is very, very scared
<mjg59> # The 'Button Sleep' events does always occur twice. Therefore we skip all
<mjg59> # events with odd event number.
<mjg59> WTF?
<mjg59> Ah - that's legacy stuff
<Fwiffo> mjg59: I've been trying to suspend my evo n600c, and have a little problem
<mjg59> Fwiffo: Mm?
<Fwiffo> it suspends beuatifully, but the screen is garbled on resume
<jdub> ROCK AND ROLL
<daniels> AND METAL
<Treenaks> How well does subkeys.pgp.net cope with revoked _sub_keys?
<sladen> is there a Ubuntu d-i netinstall image any way
<Fwiffo> i'v read that it might be because the videocard bios needs to be reset or something
<Fwiffo> http://www.doesi.gmxhome.de/linux/tm800s3/s3.html - mentions a tool for doing this
<mjg59> Fwiffo: Are you using my acpi-support package?
<Fwiffo> I thought you might be interested in somthing like this
<RubenV> Hi, I have a question about the build system
<RubenV> http://people.ubuntu.com/~lamont/buildLogs/l/linux-restricted-modules-2.6.9/2.6.9-6/
<mjg59> Fwiffo: We're using the stuff mentioned there, plus more
<RubenV> this is built succesfully for i386
<Fwiffo> no, im on the standard hoary kernel
<RubenV> however, I can't find the debs anywhere, is this normal?
<mjg59> Fwiffo: Standard hoary kernel is fine. Grab acpi-support from http://www.srcf.ucam.org/~mjg59/laptops/ and get the dependencies
<mjg59> With a bit of luck, running the /etc/acpi/sleep.sh script should result in working video
<Fwiffo> i would try the tool mentioned but it is dependant on the lrmi library which does'nt seem to be present in the repo's
<Fwiffo> ok, that should do it?
<RubenV> hmm, gonna try suspend again when i get on 2.6.9
<mjg59> Fwiffo: Yup
<Fwiffo> ok, I'll give it a spin
<Fwiffo> mjg59: thanks for the help
<daniels> so, the libdl-based loader worked nicely
<RubenV> hmmm, parted debs are built after linux-restricted-modules
<RubenV> and those are in place
<daniels> elmo_away: ping
<jdub> http://192.168.0.77:8800/
<jdub> theora stream ^
<mjg59> For a distribution that was going on about totally rad suspend to disk support in 9.2, Suse is surprisingly unimpressive in that respect
<Q-FUNK> jdub: speaking of which, any way to stream the presentations as theora streams? :)
<daniels> Q-FUNK: ... from a webcam
<jdub> not outside the lan atm
<Q-FUNK> what about vorbis?
<Q-FUNK> at least audio broadcast of the talks would be nice.
<Treenaks> question.. how many CDs do you need to order to get one of the nice boxes with them?
<daniels> Treenaks: 50
<Treenaks> daniels: OK, thanks
<Treenaks> daniels: a local book store seemed interested :)
* kylem notes he still hasn't received cds... 8)
<daniels> Treenaks: rockin'
<Treenaks> daniels: now if only the computer store decided to give away ubuntu install CDs with their PCs :)
<Keybuk> we should so carpet-bomb the local PC stores with Ubuntu CDs
<Treenaks> Keybuk: in Mataro you mean? :)
<Treenaks> Keybuk: or generally
<Keybuk> in Mataro immediately, generally in general
<sladen> Keybuk: point out there's going to be press-coverage
<Treenaks> Keybuk: then I'll have to increase my ordered amount of CDs :)
<daniels> elmo: ping?
<elmo> daniels: >
<daniels> elmo: two things -- first, ssh on chinstrap is half-installed (as they all are), and it's also massively out of date compared to, f.e., concordia, and also what I have
<daniels> elmo: secondly, which keyring daemon are you running on d.o?
<daniels> keyserver, even
<daniels> looking for something similar for fd.o
<elmo> daniels: h means on hold, not half installed, you nitwit
<elmo> and I know it's out of date - I'm fairly sure I gave you the source or a pointer to it, so you can patch it to whatever latest k-rad fresh-from-upstream-cvs you want 
<elmo> and this isn't really related to ubuntu devel :P
<daniels> elmo: ahr, my bad
<daniels> elmo: heh yeah, I have the newest one
<RubenV> daniels: lamont: (whoever is here): according to this one: http://people.ubuntu.com/~lamont/buildLogs/l/linux-restricted-modules-2.6.9/2.6.9-6/
<RubenV> the i386 has been built
<RubenV> is it normal that they don't show up on the ftp yet?
<Treenaks> well look at the version :)
<Treenaks> 2.6.9-6
<Treenaks> latest linux-image in the archive: 2.6.9-5
<RubenV> it's the only one that builds for i386 :)
<Treenaks> hi mark
<sabdf1> hey guys
<sabdf1> Treenaks: i think that was sets of 20
<sabdf1> (cd's)
<Treenaks> sabdf1: my first set of 25 didn't
<Treenaks> sabdf1: so I'm inclined to agree with daniels' number of "50"
<sabdf1> hmm... mako?
<Treenaks> Ping timeout ;)
<daniels> RubenV: it'll show up soon enough
<daniels> sabdf1: i've heard 50 from jane at the lunchpad
<sabdf1> daniels: ah, thanks
<RubenV> daniels: great, it's the one i've been waiting for the most the last couple of days
<RubenV> no nvidia means no desktop
<RubenV> and i'd like to do testing on suspends
* Treenaks tries to understand dbus
<daniels> dbus is easy dood
<Treenaks> daniels: yes, but I'm learning python at the same time :)
<Treenaks> and dbus_monitor is broken so I can't check if I'm sending the right stuff
<daniels> argh
<daniels> pitti!!
<mako> mika: how are you? :)ew
<mako> ke
<Treenaks> wow that looked scary
<_scp> First of all, I apologize for bringing this in here, but, I think I have found some sort of bug
<_scp> http://www.ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=7587
<_scp> the short story: My machine hangs when I hit the eject button on my CD Burner after it has been up for around 24hrs
<_scp> it says { Busy } in the logs, but there is no  disk in the drive
<_scp> I am cool for about 5 minutes, then the machine locks hard
<_scp> I wanna help get this fixed
<Keybuk> #ubuntu would probably be able to offer far more help
<_scp> I wish that were true, I have waited for days on ubuntuforums and no one replies when I post to #ubuntu
<_scp> I really think this is a problem
<Keybuk> that probably means nobody knows the answer
<_scp> and I want to HELP fix it
<_scp> hence me coming in here
<Keybuk> I'd guess there is a hardware problem
<_scp> I would too if this wasn't a brand new unit and it worked fine with the 2.4 kernel and woody
<Keybuk> this channel is for development of ubuntu, it's not a support channel; plenty of developers hang out on #ubuntu and read the lists, etc.
<_scp> I realize that, I wasn't looking for "support" so much as saying "hey, I found a bug"
<Keybuk> have you tried booting with the noapic and/or pci=noacpi kernel options?
<_scp> nope
<Keybuk> try that, when the boot starts hit Escape and add them onto the end of the kernel line
<Keybuk> then see whether you get the same problem
<_scp> sure, thanks... but isn't that power mgmt?
<Keybuk> no
<Keybuk> hardware stuff
<Keybuk> some motherboards suck
<Keybuk> the first one is noapic, not noacpi (it's not a typo)
<_scp> OH
<Keybuk> that tells the kernel the programmable interrupt controlled on your motherboard doesn't work
<_scp> interrupt controller
<_scp> ah
<Keybuk> pci=noacpi tells the kernel not to use acpi (configuration and power management) for PCI routeing, because some BIOSes have buggy code
<_scp> gotcha
<_scp> I will try that... then where should I go from there? is there a bugzilla for ubuntu?
<Keybuk> bugzilla.ubuntu.com
<_scp> thank you very much
<Keybuk> try to provide as much information as you can, including details about the devices (from /proc or /sys) and exact logs, etc.
<_scp> like I said: it's just an inconvenience for me, I am sure it would be worse for someone doing somehting real with ubuntu
<_scp> that's my main concern
<_scp> it's my home machine, I don't care if I have to reboot it
<_scp> :)
<Keybuk> see if those help, they tend to fix most "hardware being fucking stupid" cases
<_scp> gotcha, and this is a Dell, so it is pretty fuckin' stupid :) 
<_scp> (in some ways)
<Keybuk> heh
<_scp> the suck of it is, that I wont know until tomorrow if it worked :) 
<_scp> in the mean time i will read more about the noapic option :) 
<_scp> thanks alot, and like I said, sorry for bringing it in here, I would not have done it if I didn't think I found a real bug
<_scp> this is my first experience with the 2.6 kernel, so I am still dealing
<_scp> woody had me spoiled, it just worked, but was stoneware
<_scp> later
<_scp> Ok... so I just rebooted "PCI: Unknown option `noapic'"
<_scp> ok... but it also said "ACPI: Skipping IOAPIC probe due to 'noapic' option."
<_scp> that's fucked
<RubenV> http://files.lambda1.be/screenshots/bootchart.png -> is it me, or is mount doing something weird there?
<thom> RubenV: laptop on battery?
<thom> RubenV: entirely expected
<smurfix_> RubenV: NFS mount?
<thom> smurfix_: no, it's laptop-mode remounting and changing mount options
<RubenV> thom: on AC
<RubenV> smurfix: nope
<thom> RubenV: you shouldn't see laptop-mode on ac
<RubenV> thom: yeah, i thought so too
<RubenV> ruben@tokyo:~ $ cat /proc/acpi/ac_adapter/AC/state 
<RubenV> state:                   on-line
<thom> is that the case when you booted?
<RubenV> yes
<RubenV> just tested it
<thom> RubenV: well, that's what's happening
<RubenV> ?
<RubenV> going for a second run
<RubenV> shouldn't laptop-mode just do nothing when i'm on net current?
<RubenV> http://files.lambda1.be/screenshots/bootchart2.png
<thom> RubenV: do "grep -q off-line /proc/acpi/ac_adapter/*/state && echo $?" for me?
<thom> uh, use ';' rather than '&&'
<RubenV> 1
<thom> so it shouldn;t match, what does line 17 of /etc/init.d/acpi-support look like?
<lamont_p> moo
<ChrisH> Does anyone have a good script to handle the mass-key-signing now that the KSP is done?
<RubenV> if [ $? = 0 ] 
<thom> which is correct
<lamont_p> keybuk does
<thom> so, what have you changed? ;-)
<thom> as does kinnison
<RubenV> thom: nothing really
<RubenV> besides from my patch to laptop mode
<RubenV> which is harmless
<RubenV> https://bugzilla.ubuntu.com/attachment.cgi?id=809
<seb128> hey pitti 
<pitti> Hey seb128
<Keybuk> hey pitti
<pitti> Hey Keybuk 
<Keybuk> hey seb128
<pitti> Hey everybody out there
<pitti> Hey thom 
* thom throws sweets at pitti
* pitti passes them to Keybuk 
* daniels flutters a wrapper towards thom.
<thom> a very violent pass
<Keybuk> whoever put these bowls of sweets out did NOT understand what happens when you give geeks sugar
* pitti aims...
<daniels> that's why they're hard
<daniels> unlike jellybeans
<daniels> you can't eat 100 of them in five seconds
<Keybuk> hey mvo ;)
<thom> dude, if they were jellybeans, you'd have hoovered them all in under a second on the first day
<mvo> hi Keybuk 
* daniels throws a sweet at mvo.
<thom> good duck, dude
<daniels> thom: that was the plan
* mvo throws back in a sneaky way
<daniels> foiled again! (haw haw)
* pitti still has 1kg worth of a water bottle besides him
* thom walks the two feet to daniels and beats him senseless for that pun
* thom stacks up the empty coke bottles
<Keybuk> pitti: no!  the laptops go away before we have a water fight
<Keybuk> no allouching!
<thom> escalation++
<pitti> Keybuk: the bottle is still closed, though
<daniels> mmm, lollies
<sladen> Keybuk: kinnison tells me you have to drill a hole in the other end of the bottle first
<Keybuk> huh?!
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-devel:stockholm] : mdz: answer my mail!
<stockholm> uh, sorry, 
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-devel:thom] : Ubuntu development -- general discussion and support on #ubuntu | Want to help Hoary? see https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/HoaryGoals | Mataro server is mataro.ubuntu.com - local mirror, smtp smarthost, squid on 3128
* daniels shakes his fist at thom.
<daniels> (and throws a lolly.)
<thom> slow, always too slow
<sabdf1> to pass the keys out?
* thom throws lollys at sabdfl
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-devel:stockholm] : Ubuntu development -- general discussion and support on #ubuntu | Want to help Hoary? see https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/HoaryGoals | Mataro server is mataro.ubuntu.com - local mirror, smtp smarthost, squid on 3128 | mdz: answer stockholms email about rootstrap!
<daniels> thom: 'ies' hth hand kthxbye
<stockholm> will he even see this?
<thom> stockholm: dict patience, KTHXBYE 
<sabdf1> stockholm: sure, i think he's taking a bit of a break right now
<daniels> stockholm: it's saturday night
<stockholm> i wrote that mail on ... wednesday?
<stockholm> anyway. have a nice evening
<daniels> how polite
<Keybuk> *shock* how DARE someone take more than 3 days to reply to an e-mail ?!
<Keybuk> could you imagine if, say, Mark took that long? :p
<thom> 3 weeks is about what i expect from sabdfl... assuming i phone him a few times first ;-)
<kylem> what does sabdfl stand for, anyway? 
<mjg59> thom: So that's 29 seconds with the best part of 10 of that being ntpdate?
<Keybuk> Self Appointed Benevolent Dictator For Life
<thom> mjg59: yeah
<Keybuk> mjg59: I don't have *that* problem ;)
<thom> i was utterly lucky with ntpdate
<mjg59> thom: Fucking rock
<daniels> mjg59: i believe the words you are looking for are 'shit hot'.
<mjg59> daniels: No, that's me
<kylem> Keybuk, lol.
<mjg59> I am not Thom's boot sequence
<mjg59> One is me, and the other is a pile of shell and C
* thom adds to the quotes page
<sabdf1> thom: but i sleep with one eye open ;-)
<sabdf1> you guys *rock*
<mjg59> thom: So we ought to be good for an easy <25 seconds?
<thom> mjg59: yup; especially given that with keybuk's hotplug changes, ntpdate is async
<thom> we can still tweak some more i think
<Keybuk> not to mention dhclient, the other boot-hogger
<mjg59> Keybuk: Why does tg3 take so long to load in your snapshot?
<Keybuk> I've no idea
<thom> forget tg3, look at his sound driver!
<Keybuk> most of whatever tg3 does is in the background I think
<Keybuk> which doesn't make any sense
<elmo> mjg59: because it requires evil firmware and the DFSG purist cabal are punishing him
<Keybuk> it does?
<daniels> yeah, dude
<daniels> broadcom
<mjg59> Keybuk: Upstream's tg3 has fixed firmware in the driver
<mjg59> I think it's removed in the Debian source
<Keybuk> so why doesn't modprobe block the boot when synch
<Keybuk> the ipw2100 is a bit fucked
<Keybuk> the driver calls request_firmware() then immediately checks to see whether any got loaded
<Keybuk> so if you don't load the firmware quick enough, it sulks at you
<thom> ARE WE THERE YET?
<thom> modules with ADD
<Keybuk> the daniels of nic modules
<mjg59> elmo: Anyway, I'm part of the DFSG purist cabal. I just don't think the DFSG says what some people think it says.
<mjg59> Laptop dudes:
<mjg59> We have this minor problem that acpi doesn't seem to shut down all hardware
<daniels> sweet
<mjg59> This is most obvious on Thinkpads with Radeons, where you often seem to end up with 10% battery loss per hour
<mjg59> Examination suggests that they're not switching the Radeon into D3
<mjg59> (there's nothing in the kernel that would do this)
<mjg59> Choices are:
<mjg59> 1) Disable it in userspace
<mjg59> (this works badly if there /is/ a suspend/resume routine - the hardware loses state before the kernel calls that)
<mjg59> 2) Fix the kernel to disable all devices
<mjg59> (works reasonably well)
<mjg59> 3) Fix the Radeon code to set it to D3 (needs to be done in DRI or the framebuffer code)
<daniels> either 2 or 3
<daniels> of the two, 3 seems to be the most correct, although if it's widespread, 2 might be the most sensible option
<thom> i imagine 3 is the approach that upstream will be happiest with?
<mjg59> 3 is a bit of a problem. I don't think DRI ever binds to the PCI device, so doesn't register suspend/resume callbacks. So it needs to be in radeonfb.
<mjg59> If we want people to use radeonfb, we need to be able to reinitialise the video before radeonfb tries to do a full resume
<Keybuk> if the radeon driver isn't put to sleep, would that explain an unwillingness to resume?
<mjg59> Keybuk: Shouldn't
<mjg59> Keybuk: If you want to test, grab ftp://ftp.scyld.com/pub/diag/pci-config.c
<mjg59> Stick it at the end of your prepare.sh script and use it to put the Radeon into S3
<mjg59> Uh, D3
<daniels> mjg59: the X driver gets ACPI events
<daniels> at least, it has a PM event hook
<mjg59> daniels: Yeah, but I think that only listens to /dev/apm
<daniels> that's so awesome
<mjg59> So something that sends acpi events to /dev/apm would be useful
<daniels> fdasdf4q24ewpoiraqfrfr
<mjg59> So if we're going to go for (3), we probably want to mandate the use of radeonfb
<daniels> 'twould be cool, but no
<mjg59> Hrm. Actually, a combination of (2) and (3) would probably work best.
<daniels> i would prefer to make x listen to acpi
<mjg59> But we need to do something really evil then - on wakeup, radeonfb needs to call a userspace thing that can restore video state enough that radeonfb can then make everything better
<daniels> gnar
<daniels> i think that we could just have a /dev/apm-alike acpi pipe that the pm code can hook into
<daniels> i think that's pretty workable
<mjg59> Or we could do it all with dbus
<mjg59> !!!!11!11!
<daniels> FUCKING ROCK.
<daniels> having Xorg link with -ldbus-1 is unimaginably cool
<mjg59> Eventually Xorg will link with every single freedesktop project
<daniels> (obviously not as cool as elektra, though)
<daniels> mjg59: like hell it will EVER link with Xprint
<mjg59> Haha
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-devel:thom] : Ubuntu development -- ARE WE NEARLY THERE YET? -- general discussion and support on #ubuntu | Want to help Hoary? see https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/HoaryGoals | Mataro server is mataro.ubuntu.com - local mirror, smtp smarthost, squid on 3128 | mdz: answer stockholms email about rootstrap!
<daniels> mum, i'm hungry!
<daniels> thom keeps throwing lollies at me, mum!
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-devel:elmo] : Ubuntu development -- ARE WE NEARLY THERE YET? -- general discussion and support on #ubuntu | Want to help Hoary? see https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/HoaryGoals | Mataro server is mataro.ubuntu.com - local mirror, smtp smarthost, squid on 3128
<thom> elmo: see, i was going to do that but i'm too polite
<daniels> yeah, but elmo's from the norf
<daniels> streets of shef^Wleeds and all that
<thom> preindustrial wastelands
<daniels> they aspire to have disused steel factories
<daniels> whereas the midlands is all about the postindustrial wasteland
<Keybuk> nah, midlands is postindustrial redevelopment
<daniels> bwistol zoo?
<sabdf1> anybody else feel like heading out for a beer later?
<lamont_r> sabdf1: _later_??
<lamont_r> I think they're all about to close, no?
<sabdf1> yes, well, this is spain
<thom> sabdf1: define later? if soon, definitely
<daniels> yeah, it's not like pubs close at 11 or something equally archaic
<sabdf1> was thinking like in an hour or so, when i commit this code
<thom> bar downstairs closes at ~ 2
<thom> ok, works for
<thom> me
<daniels> what he said
<mjg59> Anyway, I'm chasing that up on the ACPI lists
<daniels> phat
<mjg59> And I'm chasing up the craptop failure again
<mjg59> The only machines I've seen that fail in that way have non-Intel chipsets. I don't believe this to be a coincidence.
<mjg59> Who ended up with the Athlon laptop from Oxford?
<thom> the athlon? possibly seb?
<mjg59> Ah, ok
<mjg59> Would be good to get an lspci
<sabdf1> seb, i think
<thom> he just left else i'd ask him
<mjg59> I think it had exactly the same failure mode
<mjg59> The two classes of failure left seem to be non-Intel chipset reboot on wakeup, and Scott's mysterious broken laptop
<mjg59> With those exceptions, we don't seem to be entirely failing anywhere
<Keybuk> yeah, it's either the Radeon being stupid
<Keybuk> or the ATI m/b chipset
<daniels> igp seems to be pretty widespread
#ubuntu-devel 2004-12-23
<mjg59> Keybuk: Mm. We didn't get any beeps out of yours, did we?
<mjg59> It could well be the same issue
<Keybuk> no, but that could be just the fact it's a soundcard that pretends to beep
<mjg59> That's true
<mjg59> Tell tbm to get his docking station fixed
<Keybuk> heh :p
<daniels> GOD SVN IS A DISK HOG
<daniels> 2.6MB in database logs, 401MB in 'strings'
* lamont_r upgrades, reboots to get a new kernel.  happy happy joy joy
<sabdf1> daniels: have you tried baz recently?
<sabdf1> mjg59: will the X40 be a happy puppy with your new kernels?
<mjg59> sabdf1: Everything in my kernels is in Hoary's 2.6.9 now
<daniels> sabdf1: don't use svn personally, just looking at a few fd.o projects (the start-and-forget ones that are making us look like sourceforge)
<mjg59> sabdf1: If you're on Hoary, you get suspend to disk support by magic
<daniels> sabdf1: i use baz for all my stuff
<sabdf1> mjg59: this laptop is still warty-fied, desktop has hoary, but the laptop is what i'm curious about
<mjg59> sabdf1: But yeah, I'm running that kernel on my X40
<sabdf1> daniels: our arch supermirror is going to be a huge repo of scarily unmaintained code too, i figure
<mjg59> I think it probably has usb-storage issues which are fixed in the Hoary one
<sabdf1> ok
<sabdf1> can't wait :-)
<mjg59> Hoary's 2.6.9 should work fine on Warty, as long as you pick up Hoary's initrd-tools as well
<sabdf1> well, i suppose, if that were true i'd be upgrading now
<daniels> sabdf1: mmm, at least its stated purpose is to suck up everything alive, not to foster active development
<sabdf1> i'm waiting for the package freeze
<daniels> sabdf1: ('hi, you never logged in and afaict you've only ever committed four headers.  do you guys actually exist?')
<sabdf1> right
<sabdf1> mjg59: great work, you're getting quite a reputation among the ubuntites
<thom> as a scary loony. definitely
<sabdf1> no one seems to know what a verbally carcinogenic glyphically creative character you really are ;-)
<Keybuk> not scary, so much as angry
<daniels> oh, we all know, dude :)
<mjg59> Haha
<sabdf1> beer time?
<thom> sabdf1: yes
<sabdf1> see you there
<thom> righto
<sabdf1> just... one... more... commit...
* lamont_r decides to keep his wife happy.
<thom> hah!
<daniels> sabdf1: craaaaack
<daniels> see you guys in the lobby
<lifeless> hehe, I got CRACK.
<lifeless> will feed it to you soon.
<stockholm> this is the pyhton support channel, right?
<Keybuk> the Python people are playing mao or drinking beer :p
<lifeless> (thats inclusive or too,for clarity)
<stockholm> i get this traceback from rootstrap:
<stockholm> Traceback (most recent call last):
<stockholm>   File "/usr/bin/rootstrap", line 113, in ?
<stockholm>     if os.spawnvpe(os.P_WAIT,umlargs[0] , umlargs, os.environ) != 0:
<stockholm>   File "/usr/lib/python2.3/os.py", line 553, in spawnvpe
<stockholm>     return _spawnvef(mode, file, args, env, execvpe)
<stockholm>   File "/usr/lib/python2.3/os.py", line 504, in _spawnvef
<stockholm>     wpid, sts = waitpid(pid, 0)
<stockholm> KeyboardInterrupt
<lifeless> you hit Ctrl-C.
<stockholm> yes, i did, because the thing hang
<lifeless> so it raw a child process, it was waiting for that child.
<lifeless> *ran*
<stockholm> but the child process was just sitting there.
<lifeless> what was the child meant to be doing? (what was it..)
<stockholm> exiting.
<stockholm> it should have exited.
<stockholm> it was a uml process that had done a shutdown
<lifeless> hmm, what kernel ?
<stockholm> 2.4.26-3um
<lifeless> ok, not that suspicion then.
<stockholm> and host is 2.6.9 wiht skas
<stockholm> with
<lifeless> oh! ok, I *think* there is a bug in 2.6* hitting python.
<lifeless> try with LD_ASSUME_KERNEL="2.4.whatever"
<stockholm> neat, ok
<lifeless> I saw weird stuff like that all the time until I put that in.
<stockholm> really "whatever"?
<lifeless> (by whatever I mean foo, a metasyntatic wassname.
<lifeless> let me look up the actual value I'm using
<lifeless> 2.4.2
<stockholm> ok
<stockholm> lifeless: hm, still hangs when done
<stockholm> you meant it like an environment var to the process, right?
<jon1012> hello :)
<jon1012> excuse me, where can I find "libgnomevfs2-0_2.9.1-0ubuntu2_i386.deb" ?
<Mithrandir> nautilus should support sftp://$host/$directory style symlinks.
<jon1012> ?
<Mithrandir> I guess I'll have to patch that in.
<jon1012> do you know when the gnome menus will be fixed in hoary ?
<Mithrandir> nope, seb128 would be the man to know
<Mithrandir> or jdub
<jon1012> ok :)
<jon1012> thx ^^
<haggai> where is everyone?
<haggai> we just got back from Barcelona and the place is deserted
<jon1012> lol
<jon1012> it explains why there wasn't anybody the last week :p
* haggai bounces around a bit to make the channel look more active
<haggai> Kubuntu!  Ker-buntu! Keee-dee-Eee-buntu !!
<lifeless> we're right here
<lifeless> :)
* haggai ends up in the corner in a strange stupor
<sladen> haggai: which corner?
<haggai> sladen: the one in my room, which thankfully has wireless
<lifeless> :)
<haggai> sladen: so where is everyone anyway?
<lifeless> garh!
<jon1012> hm... I don't know if it's the right moment to ask, but I would want to help in the gnome development ^^
<jon1012> and ubuntu of course :)
<jon1012> (gnome in ubuntu in fact :p)
<lifeless> I think its *always* the right time to ask that
<jon1012> lol
<haggai> jdub!
<haggai> jdub: did you find any chocolate?
<jdub> no
<jdub> just lollies
<jon1012> (jdub, do you know when I could test the fixed menu system for hoary ?)
<jon1012> (or maybe I could help in the development of this?)
<jdub> first cut should be done this weekend
<jon1012> ok :)
<jon1012> if you need some help or testing just ask me :)
<haggai> arrggh evo crashed for the 3rd time on the same list
<haggai> don't you gnome guys have anything stable to read your mail with? *duck*
* jon1012 uses thunderbird when evolution doesn't work ^^
<jon1012> lol
<mojo> daniels: ur the greatest! I just got the new 686 linux-restricted and nvidia-glx
<mojo> daniels: but did you notice that 'glxgear' fail? (Segmentation fault)
<mojo> daniels: and so cedega and other related program
<jon1012> (ouch :/)
<jon1012> good night everybody :)
<lamont_r> who's on 192.168.0.14?
<jon1012> ?? (192.168.0.14 is a lan addresse :|)
<lamont_r> jon1012: exactly.  specifically, an IP at the conf in mataro
<lamont_r> which is to say, someone's laptop.
<sivang> not mines :)
<jon1012> oh ok lol
<jon1012> I'm not in mataro :p
<sivang> lamont_r : still fighting with the network?
<plovs> lamont_r, here it works ok
<plovs> lamont_r, across the hall from your room
<lamont_r> am fine
<lamont_r> just experience a burp in the force
<lamont_r> whoever's on .14 was just bouncing around alot is all.
<lamont_r> anyway, bed time
<sivang> lamont, night!
<sabdf1> night all
<sivang> night sabdfl 
<mojo> daniels: is it better if u write a script to download binary Nvidia driver and install automatically rather get restricted-modules? On some machine, the resctrited does not work or usually encounter some Seg fault error
<spotter> anyone using software suspend w/ the new 2.6.9 kernel?
<tseng> sortof
<spotter> how does one set it up?
<tseng> read $linuxsource/Documentation/power/swsusp.txt
<spotter> hmm
<spotter> have to install linuxsource
<spotter> i just installed the unbuntu packages
<jdodson> knock, knock.
<jdodson> any developers in the house?
<jdodson> house being this irc channel that is.
<Tsjoklat> bit early in Spain jdodson... and weekend
<jdodson> ah right.
<jdodson> doh.
<Tsjoklat> would try in mmmm two and a half hours
<jdodson> gonna be in bed then..... oh well.
<Tsjoklat> more luck on monday
<jdodson> sounds good, will rock it then....
<Tsjoklat> :)
* netjoined: irc.freenode.net -> niven.freenode.net
<Simira> morning folks!
* Mithrandir ruffles Simira 
<Treenaks> morning Simira 
<jdahlin> I have a problem booting ubuntu on amd64, seems like grub cant find stage2 from my hd
* jdahlin looks around for clueful people
<azeem> jdahlin: seems they are all touring Barcelona today
<jdahlin> yeah, boring :)
<amu> azeem: not all ;) 
<pasc> woohoo
* pasc finally makes it in
* Treenaks decides normal developers will never be able to use baz
<pasc> Treenaks: how come?
<Treenaks> pasc: because it's impossible to think up a 'baz get' line which does NOT tell me "invalid revision spec"
<lifeless> pasc: dude, are you here ?
<lifeless> Treenaks: how so ? 
<lifeless> Treenaks: i.e give me an example.
<pasc> lifeless: yeah
<pasc> lifeless: where are you?
<lifeless> rm 124
<pasc> ah
<lifeless> u?
<pasc> is everyone in their rooms or something?
<pasc> i'm in one of the conf rooms
<lifeless> nyha, the slackers went to barcelona, I couldn't face that much walking :)
<pasc> I think it's the BOF room
<pasc> is bob2 wearing a white shirt today?
<lifeless> if its mid sized and stinky, its the BOF room
<Treenaks> lifeless: the main problem is that the most advanced revision control I've used is cvs
<Treenaks> lifeless: and the lack of docs"
<Treenaks> docs for beginners
<Treenaks> stupid ^J
<pasc> lifeless: yeah
<pasc> sounds about right
<lifeless> so baz is way to complicated, yes.
<lifeless> and we are addressing that.
* pasc is pondering going for a soft-drink/coffee/food
<lifeless> but the basics are very similar to cvs - you have a repository, it has branches that you can check out, and commit to.
<Treenaks> I'll have to dive into the docs some more
<lifeless> pasc: I could do lunch, but stuff will be closed now, until ~ 8pm.
<pasc> lifeless: want to walk around and see if we see anything?
<pasc> it also gives me the chance to walk around and giggle when I hear people speak in catalan
<lifeless> sure. Meet you in the lobby?
<pasc> hmm ok
<pasc> actually
<pasc> i'll just come to your room?
<pasc> be there in 4
<pasc> 0 seconds
<pasc> right
<pasc> second try
<pasc> this time I'll actually try to remember your room number
<pasc> right
<pasc> out
<pasc> hmm
<pasc> I can't find the rooms past 120
<jamesh> you need to go down to the ground floor and go up the other stair case / lift
* remon is back
* remon is away: not at home
<Mithrandir> remon: could you please turn off public away?
<Mithrandir> Keybuk/thom/daniels: is there a repository with your latest crack?
<Mithrandir> or what's the ETA of upload to hoary on it?
<Treenaks> the boot speedup crack?
<Mithrandir> yeah
* robtaylor|mataro wants more crack
<Treenaks> robtaylor: poke jdub, keybuk, thom and/or daniels :)
<Mithrandir> craaaaaaaaaaack!
<Treenaks> robtaylor: or, if you want kernel crack, poke fabbione :)
<pasc> Treenaks: jdub/thom /daniels aren't around
<pasc> Treenaks: I don't know what keybuck looks like
<lifeless> pasc: he looks like scott
<lifeless> http://www.netsplit.com/
<Treenaks> lifeless: he doesn't look like that.. not much at least
<Treenaks> http://foodfight.org/fotos/2004/12-07%20Ubuntu%20Conference/?img_0018.jpg
<lifeless> Treenaks: thats his home page - he does so look like that.
<pasc> lifeless: that could be what he would like to look like
<lifeless> :] 
<pasc> well I can't see anyone like that either
<lifeless> I'm pretty sure him and rent boy have gone -> bc
<lifeless> n
<pasc> rent boy?
<lifeless> Thom
<pasc> ah
<Simira> is Ubuntu in plural Ubunti?
<Mithrandir> I think it's uncountable
<Simira> no, it's not!
<Treenaks> Simira: it's countable?
<Treenaks> Simira: I think it's more like "water"..
<Mithrandir> *chuckle*
<Treenaks> now ubuntite.. that's countable :)
<Simira> nooo
<Simira> One Ubuntu, more Ubunti
<Mithrandir> Treenaks: mako had some crackhead plural for it.. do you remember?
<Treenaks> Mithrandir: uh no? ubuntites?
<Simira> like a lot of Ubuntu clients in a room?
<Treenaks> Mithrandir: or ubuntits? :P
<Simira> Ubuntas?
<Treenaks> Simira: ubuntistas?
<pasc> ubuntish
<Simira> regardless, I *know* it's Ubunti!
<Mithrandir> Treenaks: I dont remember.
<Mithrandir> Simira: drop a mail to sounder@ ?
<Simira> no way... flaming is not encouraged
<Treenaks> Simira: it's not flaming, it's asking a question
<Treenaks> "what's the plural" etc.
<Simira> But I know :p
<Simira> besides, I have an article to finish now
* Mithrandir chuckles at Simira 
<Simira> lol
* farruinn doesn't understand
<Simira> Ubuntu Women == Ubuntits :D
<Mithrandir> farruinn: it might help you a bit to know that Simira and I are in the same room (:
<farruinn> ah, ok
<farruinn> what I really didn't understand though is why Simira asked a question to which he already knew the answer =)
<Mithrandir> farruinn: we had a small discussion about it.  And she's a she, not a he.
<farruinn> sorry Simira
<farruinn> wouldn't have thought that a woman would have said Ubuntu Women == Ubuntits :D
<Simira> most men wouldn't. That's why they're men
* Mithrandir tickles Simira's foot
<remon> Mithrandir: sorry, I think public away is on by default on ksirc, I'll have a look at it right now
<remon> Mithrandir: I think I disabled it, please let me know if it has helped. I guess I don't see those messages like that in my window
<Mithrandir> remon: ok, thanks.  If you twiddle away/not away now, I can check.
<Mithrandir> (or if you just did, it should be ok)
<Simira> hm.. Tsjoklat 
<Treenaks> Simira: I don't think she's online
<Simira> ok
<Treenaks> can I take a message? :)
<Simira> Treenaks: not really, it's a women-thing :)
<Treenaks> :) ok
<Simira> Treenaks: just finished the article about Ubuntu and women in open source communities. Will put it out as soon as I get a few to read it and give me feedback on the language and spelling/grammatics
<Treenaks> Simira: on the wiki?
<Treenaks> Simira: or somewhere else?
<Tsjoklat> I am here sorry mr. Bo was sick
<Simira> Treenaks: on the wiki and mailing lists
<thom> Mithrandir: i need to package up readahead
* Treenaks hires a cheerleader team to cheer on thom while packaging
<Treenaks> jdub: have you had time for the -nl list yet? :)
<lifeless> that won't make thom package faster, you know.
<RubenV> if no teams are available, i'll volunteer for the cheering
<RubenV> that'll make him package faster ;)
<lifeless> :)
<remon> Mithrandir: hmm, I'm getting a message now about being not longer away :(
<Treenaks> remon: we're not getting that
<remon> Ah, so it's allright now?
<Treenaks> it seems
<remon> fine :)
<remon> BTW, do any of you know if there's a channel somewhere for Qt specific things?
<Mithrandir> remon: try #qt or #kde-devel or #kde-dev or something?
<Mithrandir> (I don't know if those exists, but it's always worth a shot)
<remon> Ah, OK I'll try to do so, or if perhaps some of you are familiar with Qt programming :P
<remon> (don't want to bother this list with offtopic stuff)
<Keybuk> heights, ice cream and coke
<Keybuk> BAD BAD BAD COMBINATION
<Keybuk> BOUNCEY!
<Keybuk> doesn't really improve my aim much, though
<elmo> BOUNCEY BOUNCEY BOUNCEY BOUNCEY BOUNCEY BOUNCEY BOUNCEY BOUNCEY BOUNCEY BOUNCEY BOUNCEY BOUNCEY BOUNCEY 
<Mithrandir> hm?
<Mithrandir> Keybuk: I WANT MY CRAAACK
<Mithrandir> Keybuk: hotplug craaaack
<Mithrandir> nooooow
<Keybuk> I'm a fixin' hotplug at the moment
<Keybuk> I slightly broke the input agent and it doesn't find the psmouse on X40s
<thom> elmo in cyclone of hate shocker
<Mithrandir> thom: how so?
<pasc> can someone poke daniels for me?
<thom> pasc: no, i can throw sweets
<elmo> I can throw a glass full of coke at him, if you want
<pasc> yeah that works
<pasc> I think that hit
<pasc> I heard it from here ;-)
<Mithrandir> heh
<elmo> no, that was me, being my quiet self
<pasc> heh
* pasc comes to check on what's happening
* Keybuk kills pasc
<Keybuk> you just started WW3
<pasc> uh oh
<thom> elmo's divebombing seb and sjoerd
* Keybuk feels in a very insecure psition right now
* haggai feels vulnerable in the middle between thom,elmo,keybuk,pitti & daniels
<Mithrandir> what's going on down there?
* Keybuk hugs haggai
<thom> sweet fight
<Mithrandir> jdub: fire up your webcam!
<thom> ESUGAR
<pitti> Mithrandir: "down"? where are you?
<Mithrandir> pitti: home.
<Mithrandir> I have an exam in about 12 hours.
<pitti> Mithrandir: oh, good luck
<daniels> someone throw a lolly at haggai
<daniels> he's clearly far too pacifist
* haggai grabs an idle pneumatic drill and playfully drills daniels' skull a few times
<thom> i exist to please
<daniels> another drill
<daniels> er
<daniels> another lolly
<daniels> he's clearly far too violent now
* haggai growls
<Treenaks> where is all this happening? Cristal? :)
<thom> Treenaks: the "quiet" room
<Treenaks> thom: ah, that means either elmo or lamont is there..
<thom> elmo
<lifeless> dinner time ?
<Keybuk> we just pigged out on ice cream
<Keybuk> much more fun
<Treenaks> Keybuk: alcoholic ice cream?
<daniels> configure:26108: checking for qglobal.h
<daniels> configure:26122: result: found
<daniels> configure:26141: WARNING: Qt development libraries not found
<daniels> SPETHUL
<Keybuk> no, strawberry
<daniels>     if test -z $kdelibs -o ! -f $kdelibs/libkdecore.la; then
<daniels>         have_qt=no
<daniels>     else
<daniels> oh yeah, I remember that
* daniels applauds.
<daniels> of course, it doesn't ever tell you that what you actually need is KDE
<thom> daniels: mcs is rebuilt - http://192.168.0.19/~thom/
<thom> grab all the mono-* crud from there
<daniels> cheers
<daniels> googling for "david zeuthen" bootchart: Did you mean: "david zeuthen" butchart
<jdub> buttchart?
<jdub> MEASURE MY ASS!
* Tsjoklat gets the tape measure
<Tsjoklat> bend over?
* jdub blushes semi-politely.
<Tsjoklat> you demanded it :)
<Tsjoklat> I just thought I would oblige you
<daniels> thom: KUNEKSHUN REFUSED
<thom> yeah, i just got rebooted
<thom> .110
<daniels> ta
<daniels> oh my god, how psychopathic
<daniels> they don't actually *USE* KDE, they just borrow all the flags from kdecore
<daniels> because they're too lazy to figure out which flags Qt needs themselves
<thom> heh!
<daniels> to go nicely with 'DESTDIR=' in mono/makefile.am
<haggai> mjg59: seems I loose sound after suspend/resume
* Mithrandir whines at haggai 
<daniels> haggai: try alsactl power off, alsactl power on
<haggai> aplay: pcm_write:1118: write error: Input/output error
<haggai> daniels: nope
<haggai> Mithrandir: hmmm?  Pity you went already
<Keybuk> hmm
<Mithrandir> haggai: ooo building is sloooooooooow
<Keybuk> I need to find someone else's laptop to experiment on
<daniels> haggai: genius
<haggai> Mithrandir: yup.  And? :)
<thom> I HAD TWO COPIES OPEN
<thom> http://www.clearairturbulence.org/rob_weir.jpg
<thom> it's all elmo's fault
* Mithrandir drinks some good whisky
* HcE wonders if Mithrandir wants some Braastad XO in 4de
<HcE> ;)
<Mithrandir> HcE: I have about a full bottle of XO (bache) here.  And a bunch of the balvenie and the glenlivet and other good whiskys.
<HcE> here = at home?
<Mithrandir> (whiskys?  whiskies?  whiskars?)
<Mithrandir> yup
<Mithrandir> got back last night
<HcE> from Italy?
<HcE> or was it Spain
<HcE> ?
<Mithrandir> from Spain.
<HcE> =)
<Mithrandir> Italy was a little more than a month ago.
<Mithrandir> more like two, actually
* HcE observes that it rains outside
<HcE> nothing like a realy good norwegian winter
<Mithrandir> this isn't a norwegian winter, it's a winter in Trondheim.
<Mithrandir> which is a totally different thing
<HcE> hihi
<stockholm> lifeless: ?
<stockholm> mdz: ?
* Keybuk explains to stockholm about timezones :p
<Treenaks> Keybuk: stockholm is in GMT+1 just like you Keybuk :)
<stockholm> Keybuk: i dont know in which timezone he is now. please tell me.
<Keybuk> Spanish
<Keybuk> Europe/Madrid
<stockholm> Keybuk: so, what does that tell me?
<thom> that he's probably in BED
<stockholm> WHAT???
<stockholm> thom: get real
<stockholm> why would he be in bed now?
<thom> because he's ILL and WORKING TOO HARD
<stockholm> if he came to spain, is ill and works still to hard he needs a cluebat.
<stockholm> thx, anyway.
<thom> what planet are you from? it's a WORK CONFERENCE
<daniels> christ, dude.
<daniels> he has to be here for work, and he really is quite sick
<stockholm> thom: earth. and i got my "how do i keep healthy" basis down all right.
<Kamion> stockholm: you're being really unpleasant here
<stockholm> sorry, i did not want to. 
<Kamion> don't use this channel to hassle people.
<stockholm> i did not want to, sorry.
<daniels> anyway, mdz hangs out in #debian-devel also, last I checked
* fabbione preload the sodomotron
<fabbione> argh too late
<fabbione> ;)
<Keybuk> s'ok, I could do with a good buggering; load it up!
* Kamion readjusts stockholm's social skills :-/
<Kamion> depressing, that
* thom decides to sleep on the beach for the rest fo the conference
<Mithrandir> thom: oh, why?
<Keybuk> Kamion: he's been a bit "ARE WE THERE YET?" about that mail
<smurfix_> thom: BRRR.
<Kamion> Keybuk: yeah, just inhaled scrollback and saw that
<daniels> thom: good plan
<thom> see Keybuk's previous comment
* fabbione wanders off to watch a movie
* haggai tries to think of a good caption for http://foodfight.org/fotos/2004/12-09%20Ubuntu%20Conference/img_0004.jpg
<daniels> igood lord
<daniels> thom: .157/~daniels/dbus/
<kylem> gah. is that daniels?
<Mithrandir> yeah, he needs a shave
<daniels> aye
<shaya> so anyone home?
<azeem> I am
<shaya> anyone run bootlog
<shaya> it doesn't seem accurate
<smurfix_> shaya: in what way?
<shaya> well by wallclock from hitting enter at grub till I could log in was about 1 minute 10 seconds
<shaya> bootlog counts only 14 seconds
<shaya> and it was deffinitly more than 14 seconds of rc scripts
<smurfix_> So is stuff missing, or just time compression?
<shaya> it doesn't look like naything per sei is missing
<shaya> but boot takes longer than 14 seconds
<shaya> has anyone given though to parallelizing the boot?  i.e. have gdm launching while dhcp is going
<Keybuk> are you sure bootchart hasn't stuck itself at the start of rc2.d
<Mithrandir> shaya: yes, read planet for the last few days.
<Keybuk> (thus excluding rcS.d)
<shaya> Mithrandir: no, it's in /etc/init.d/rc
<smurfix_> shaya: that doesn't answer the question
<shaya> hmm
<shaya> basically the processes it has
<shaya> init 2 ; ksoftirqd/0 ; events/0 ; khelper ; kjournald ; udevd ; bootlogd ; rc 2 ; s13gdm ; gdm S20pcmcia
<shaya> and some more
<shaya> so perhaps just getting rc2?
<smurfix_> That does look like rcS is missing.
<smurfix_> look at /etc/rcS.d and rc2.d
<shaya>   # Log performance data
<shaya>   /etc/bootchart/bootlog start >/dev/null 2>&1 &
<shaya> is right after export runlelvel previous in /etc/init.d/rc
<Kamion> /etc/init.d/rc doesn't handle rcS
<smurfix_> init.d/rc is called twice
<smurfix_> or that
<shaya> hmm
<shaya> so bootchart's debian patch is broken
<smurfix_> put it in /etc/rcS.d/S00bootlog
<smurfix_> or bootchart or whatever the package's name is
* smurfix_ 's brain needs sleep
<shaya> ok
<shaya> time to reboot and try it
<Kamion> whoa, scary flickering lights in my room
* Kamion suspects we're overloading the power infrastructure a bit
<Kamion> (although that in itself is scary)
<jdub> hrm, that happened when i plugged in while in lamont's room last night?
<jdub> s/\/$//
<jdub> bong
<Kamion> it happens when I plug anything in, but it just happened considerably more flickerily than that
<jdub> whatever
<Kamion> with added power-arcing noise
<Kamion> maybe somebody brought an s390 along or something
<daniels> heh
<jdub> i have a special model x390
<jdub> it's an s390 in x300 format
<Kamion> but I can simulate that in hercules, so it must suck
* sid77 hi
<Mithrandir> Kamion: do you simulate the power consumption as well?
<Kamion> maybe that's my problem
<ChrisH> Is anyone else aware about the "trying to overwrite `/etc/xdg/menus/applications.menu', which is also in package kdelibs-data" problem in gnome-menus?
<ChrisH> My dist-upgrade is stuck. :(
<Kamion> I think it's been filed, but check bugzilla
<ChrisH> I filed it, too. Just wondered when this bug came along.
<shaya> well just reran it w/ it at s00 in rcS
<shaya> didnt make a difference
<shaya> still 14 seconds
<shaya> actually 13
<shaya> http://www1.cs.columbia.edu/~spotter/bootchart.png
<RubenV> shaya: my guess is that it starts too late
<shaya> it's S00 in rcS
<RubenV> don't run it like that
<shaya> how can it start earlier!
<RubenV> install it with the rc patch
<shaya> it is
<shaya> its there too
<RubenV> you start it twice?
<shaya> thats how it was installed
<shaya> spotter@dent:/tmp $ grep bootlog /etc/init.d/rc
<shaya>   /etc/bootchart/bootlog start >/dev/null 2>&1 &
<shaya> actually it was installed at s05
<shaya> I moved it to s00
<shaya> I can remove the s00
<RubenV> bootlogd != bootchart
<shaya> hmm
<shaya> good point
<shaya> lets move bootlogd back
<shaya> guess I got confused b/c of bootchart's program nam
<shaya> but that just shows its in /etc/init.d/rc
<RubenV> if it's at the right place in rc, then it should start a bit earlier afaik
<RubenV> but i'm not that familiar with bootchart, sry
<Kinnison> Evening
<shaya> whatever
<shaya> not going to worry about it for now
<Tsjoklat> night all.. be good!
<robtaylor|mataro> Kinnison, evening!
<Simira> evnin Kinnison. Wish my good luck for my exam tomorrow! Reading did not go too well.
<Kinnison> heyhi
<Kinnison> Simira: You'll do great.
* Kinnison hugs Simira 
<Simira> thanks, needed that hug!
<Simira> have a nice conference tomorrow. :) I'l be online crying sometime after one o'clock
* Mithrandir waves good night
<Kinnison> Mithrandir: You off to sleep?
<Mithrandir> yeah, and exam for me too tomorrow.
<Mithrandir> it'll be fine
<Kinnison> Mithrandir: eep; *hugs* for you too
<Mithrandir> my last exam but one. :)
<Mithrandir> thanks :)
<Mithrandir> see you around
<Q-FUNK> I seem to get stuck at the "Loading /install/vmlinuz...." prompt on i386.  as I'm not otherwise too familiar with d-i, any idea what could cause this?
<Kamion> that's not really even d-i, that's the kernel loading
<Kamion> bah
<mxpxpod> I know this has probably been asked a million times, but when do we get to see the results of the mataro boot changes?
<Kamion> some of them have gone into hoary already; I guess it's whenever Scott and Thom get round to tidying each of the bits up and uploading them :)
<mxpxpod> ok
<daniels> ok, dbus cvs uploaded, dbus-mono (which is a rather freakshow horror hack to break it out into a separate source package) is uploaded and in NEW
<daniels> Kamion: gdm will probably hit tomorrow, X in a couple of days
<Kamion> Scott and Thom> ... and whoever else I shamefully forgot :)
<daniels> heh :)
* Kamion does some less glamorous tidying-up of man-db instead
<mxpxpod> daniels: btw, good work
<daniels> just saying yeah, it will all hopefully be in during the week
<daniels> mxpxpod: cheers
<daniels> sleep
* Kinnison boggles at all these people crashing at early times
<Keybuk> yeah, I've got to tweak my stuff a bit more yet
<Keybuk> there's about 10 or so packages to touch
#ubuntu-devel 2004-12-24
<robtaylor|mataro> Kinnison, you awake?
<Kinnison> yes
<robtaylor|mataro> Kinnison, any idea how the generation of dbus_bindings.pyx works?
<Kinnison> deep voodoo magic
<robtaylor|mataro> hmm
<robtaylor|mataro> its all a bit odd. it seems to use cpp to pull in c fn definites but its not pulling in things with are *next to each other* in the header file :/
<robtaylor|mataro> moo
<robtaylor|mataro> hmm. maybe its only pulling in stuff thats used
* robtaylor|mataro strokes his b34rD
<Kinnison> perhaps
<Kinnison> anyway; I'm off for a shower and then bed
<mjg59> haggai: Hrm. Irritating.
<mjg59> Can you file a bug with lspci and lsmod output?
<haggai> mjg59: ok
<mjg59> haggai: Thanks!
<kylem> do you guys have your kernel packages in version control somewhere?
<RubenV> hmmm, why isn't upgrade-notifier built with DBUS?
<Kinnison> Morning
<davyd_> daniels ; around?
<davyd_> how does X autoconfigure itself in Ubuntu?
<thom> davyd_: he's not emerged yet
<davyd_> thom ; you don't happen to know the answer do you? ;)
<thom> davyd_: there's a program called xresprobe - it does a mad combination of log greppery, dmi and guessing
<davyd_> thom ; is it in straight debian? I am trying to get my new Linux based terminal server client to boot
<daniels> davyd_: sup?
<daniels> davyd_: nope, it's ubuntu-specific and a little bit of a hack
<davyd_> daniels ; hmm, all I need is a script to write out a config
<davyd_> your xresprobe works
<davyd_> do you have a script to wrap that?
* davyd_ is willing to implement a hack
<daniels> davyd_: hmmm, not really, sorry
<daniels> the config is all debconf crack
<daniels> davyd_: if you run that, that should give you the values you need
<davyd_> daniels ; yeah
<davyd_> on the other hand, Debian doesn't seem to want to write me an X config at all
* davyd_ pulls a face at it...
<lamont_r> missing -lXres on ia64
<lamont_r> ENOMSG :-(
<fabbione> daniels: i did send you a mail about xrestop
<fabbione> with the build logs
<jdub> morning davyd_ 
<daniels> fabbione: yeah, but this was actually a ftbfs in gnome :)
<haggai> ouch my laptop looses serious time when suspended
<thom> i thought mjg59 had fixed his scripts to reset the system clock from hardware
<thom> when you come out
<pitti> elmo: is there an i386 machine with a hoary dchroot (glibc build-deps)?
<haggai> thom: hmm I should check if that gets run properly
<seb128> is somebody working on fixing mono in hoary ?
<thom> seb128: lamont will be kicking it soonish
<thom> it's a circular build dep
<seb128> ok
<seb128> I'm waiting to install tomboy for one week now :p
<Treenaks> thomboy?
<Mithrandir> Treenaks: thomboy is called thombot, tomboy is wiki-for-the-desktop.
<Treenaks> Mithrandir: I know what tomboy is :)
<seb128> I think nobody did this joke before
<Treenaks> Mithrandir: how were the exams?
<fabbione> yeah but the real name of thom is : Thom 'I slice my fingers' May
<Mithrandir> Treenaks: not until 1500, it seems.
* thom moons fabio
* fabbione fires a sodomotron missle to thom while he is mooning 
<Mithrandir> seb128: any idea why nautilus in unstable doesn't show the right icons?  They all look like one sheet of paper
<seb128> Mithrandir, gnome-settings-daemon is running ?
<chrisa> Mithrandir: gnome-settings-daemon isn't running
<Mithrandir> seb128: ah, ok, thx
<Kamion> fabbione: compare http://www.suse.de/~nashif/autoinstall/9.1/html/importkickstart.html
<Kamion> SuSE seems to be a bit schizophrenic in exactly what it supports
<Treenaks> SuSE is crackhead stuff
<Treenaks> (and I know.. I'm using it at work.. because the "support" oracle..)
<fabbione> Kamion: i suggest a new approach
<fabbione> Kamion
<fabbione> Kamion: we reengineer the entire kickstart crap to be nice and dandy
<fabbione> and we push it to the other distro
<Kamion> fabbione: hm ... elegant, reliable, on time, pick any two ... ;)
<fabbione> Kamion: eheh
<Kamion> not sure what I think the best approach is yet; more research to do
<fabbione> i agree
<Kamion> most of the use of rhpl is its translate library
<Kamion> which appears to be a not-entirely-trivial wrapper around python's gettext library
<Kamion> there's always the option of just packaging up rhpl, of course
<Kamion> which I'm tempted to do anyway so that I can test the thing unmodified
<Kamion> hmm. has iconv.py been replaced with something else?
<Kamion> never mind, I'm just confused
<Kamion> fabbione: ./keyboard.py:25:import kudzu
<Kamion> ./keyboard.py:44:       list = kudzu.probe(kudzu.CLASS_KEYBOARD, kudzu.BUS_UNSPEC,
<Kamion> ./keyboard.py:45:                          kudzu.PROBE_ONE)
<Kamion> yay for RH stuff
<thom> *yart*
<daniels> Kamion: yeah, it's crack
<daniels> they do the same for their monitors
<fabbione> Kamion: told... ya... faster to rewrite ;)
<Kamion> fabbione: I suck at GUI code, just warning you in advance
<Treenaks> Kamion: ask mvo :)
<Kamion> aha, kudzu is packaged
<azeem> the SuSE hardware detection stuff is packaged as well, btw
<thom> yeah
<Treenaks> isn't the suse hardware stuff called "a broken version of discover" ?
<Mithrandir> treenaks: abvod?
<Treenaks> Mithrandir: hmm..
* Kamion drills down through a stupid number of dependencies
<Kamion> fabbione: I'm beginning to think you're right
<Kamion> azeem: we don't actually want to *use* it; I'm just trying to get stuff to run so that I can look at it here
<azeem> Kamion: heh, I didn't accuse of it :)
<fabbione> Kamion: so do i :-) we can switch to debconf ;)
<Kamion> not ... entirely convinced that's the best plan
<fabbione> ehhe
<fabbione> someone please kick the AP
<fabbione> no new connections are allowed
<thom> not an AP problem
<fabbione> s/AP/gw
<thom> can't, ISP has root not me
<fabbione> thom: i said kick.. not root ;)
<Kamion> fabbione: suggest that we might want to leave the UI until later, for this reason: it needs to have a lot of data about possible answers to questions in the installer (e.g. languages, countries, timezones), and we need to figure out a way to extract that automatically
<fabbione> Kamion: agreed
<Kamion> fabbione: and if we do the format translation tool first, that doesn't rely on arch imports of anything external ;)
* Mithrandir ponders upgrading vawad to hoary.  Without rebooting.  And throw and arch change into the process.
<fabbione> Mithrandir: don't :-)
<Mithrandir> fabbione: why not?
<fabbione> is vawad already warty?
<Mithrandir> nope, unstable
<fabbione> (because we can't create new connections at the moment)
<fabbione> ah damn
<fabbione> you are in .no
<fabbione> go ahead :-I
<Kamion> oh, *that's* why my CVS checkouts are failing
<Treenaks> NAT table crap?
<Kamion> I so need to have already packaged openssh 3.9, then I could tunnel through my existing ssh connection to home
<Mithrandir> Kamion: that's called "screen" on the remote side. :)
<Kamion> Mithrandir: already running screen. not useful for getting a cvs checkout here
<fabbione> Mithrandir: i think he mean that you can open an extra tunnel on top of an existing connection without opening a new one?
<Kamion> yes, I do
<Treenaks> Kamion: zmodem-over-terminal ?
<Mithrandir> Kamion: ah, oh, yeah.
<Kamion> Treenaks: falls in the "not fun" category
<fabbione> ok it seems to be back
<Mithrandir> just run ppp inside the screen and run ppp-over-screen-over-ssh?
* Treenaks used to do that with minicom and the command shell at his isp
* Mithrandir hides.
<Kamion> Mithrandir: still don't see how I'd connect to said ppp
<Treenaks> Kamion: /proc/<pid>/fd/{0,1,2}
<Kamion> the point is to allow me to tunnel over a connection that's already established, which requires cooperation from ssh ...
<Kamion> Treenaks: I'm already using those :P
<Kamion> to type with ...
<Mithrandir> Kamion: get ppp to talk to your ssh's stdin/stdout.
<Kamion> ControlMaster/ControlPath is much nicer
<Treenaks> OMG! You killed Kinnison!
<mgedmin_> http://wiki.gnuarch.org/moin.cgi/BazaarMockupUI
* azeem just found the Ubuntu review in this week's c't magazine (german)
<Treenaks> azeem: hey col
<Treenaks> +o
<Treenaks> azeem: what's the verdict?
<azeem> it's just 1/3 of a page though
<Kamion> mdz: did you want to make *really* sure about not having webmin or something? it's in blacklist.security twice
<azeem> "Debian ganz einfach" is the headline
<azeem> Treenaks: quite positive, though also quite superficial
<Kamion> mdz: I'd like to figure out a way to move the blacklists to the seeds archive; it's wrong for them to be part of germinate, really
<azeem> SuSE 9.2 and FC3 had three full pages together in one of the last editions
<Treenaks> what's so l33t about 9.2?
<azeem> no idea, but SuSE is traditionally the most popular Linux distribution in germany, so I guess it makes sense that they take a closer look
<robtaylor_> carlos, it WORKS
<robtaylor_> accessd LIVES
<Treenaks> cue lightning & thunder
<carlos> robtaylor_: sjoerd told me that hald people is asking for such feature ;-)
<carlos> so we need it in place as soon as possible
<carlos> could you put it in arch?
<carlos> robtaylor_: or you still need to learn "baz add" ;-)
<robtaylor_> well main work is in the dbus python bindings
<Treenaks> a "baz for cvs junkies" would be nice
* mjg59 gets woken up by UPS
<daniels> mjg59: ah, the life of a student
<daniels> mjg59: what bling have you got today?
* mjg59 then has to pay import duty on someone else's package
<mjg59> daniels: It's from Thinkgeek, but it's not for me
<daniels> oops
<daniels> arh
<robtaylor_> carlos, shall i send you my dbus packages?
<carlos> Treenaks: baz is having a face clean to be easily used by cvs/svn users
<Treenaks> carlos: yay
<carlos> robtaylor_: yeah, please, send me a tar.gz will all the beast, I could commit it into our my archive if you are not able to do it yourself
<robtaylor_> carlos, well i might as well figure arch out ;)
<robtaylor_> i'm just going to finish the example daemon
<carlos> ok
<Kinnison> Hey Simira. How was the exam?
<Simira> I'm still breathing.
<Simira> Don't know, really. But I feel ok about it, and glad it's over
* Kinnison hugs
<Simira> :) *hugs back*
<Simira> now it's holidays for me
<Simira> just finishing christmas presents and stuff
<robtaylor_> carlos, http://sourcecontrol.net/~rtaylor for new dbus
<daniels> robtaylor_: er, dude
<daniels> the freshest dbus is in hoary :)
<daniels> there's dbus CVS in hoary, and dbus-mono is just waiting on lamont to break mcs 1.0.4's circular build-dep
<carlos> daniels: so the patch from rob is in?
<daniels> carlos: which one?
<carlos> daniels: the one about the python bindings
<lamont_r> daniels: you fixed the ftbfs then?
<robtaylor_> daniels, thats my custom crack
<carlos> robtaylor: do you have your patch alone?
<robtaylor_> just preparing it right now ;)
<daniels> robtaylor_: cool :)
<carlos> robtaylor: thanks
<daniels> lamont_r: the one that isn't in p.u.c/~lamont/buildLogs/d/dbus/0.22+cvs.200412122010-0ubuntu2/ ?
<lamont_r> heh
<lamont_r> daniels: one of the amusing issues with only seeing failure mails...
<daniels> lamont_r: heh :)
<robtaylor_> carlos, http://sourcecontrol.net/~rtaylor/dbus-python-auth.diff
<daniels> robtaylor_: is that against cvs?
<robtaylor_> daniels, yep
<robtaylor_> as of about 0030 UTC last night
<robtaylor_> (um.. i mean today ;) )
<carlos> robtaylor: we already have the getunixuser method, I was using it from the current bindings...
<carlos> robtaylor: let's move this to #accessd
<mdz> Kamion: I think a single entry in blacklist is sufficient
<mdz> Kamion: moving the blacklists into the seed archive sounds appropriate as well
<fabbione> mdz: what do you think would be a good name for a linux-source-almostcrackfotheday ?
<fabbione> s/fo/of
<Mithrandir> fabbione: linux-crack-crack-crack?
<Mithrandir> or possibly linux-image-crack-crack-crack
<fabbione> i need to make the orig.tar.gz indipendent from the version
<lamont_r> linux-source-crack sounds about right
<fabbione> since we can keep it uptodate via patches
<bob2> mjg59: do you happen to know which scripts get run for APM events?
<fabbione> lamont_r: yeah
<lamont_r> thom: mono needs help on i386 and ppc, yes?
<mjg59> bob2: /etc/apm/apm_proxy or some such crack
<lamont_r> fabbione: better might be 'linux-source-bleeding-edge'
<mjg59> The main issue with apm is that the Linux driver current has no way to reject events
<mjg59> So when someone presses a sleep button, you're damn well going to sleep
<bob2> mjg59: oh, heh, 'twas trying to disable sleep-on-lid-close
<mjg59> Haha. Nope.
<Kinnison> mjg59: I've finished my first pass of tosh_acpi2
<mjg59> If it's a Thinkpad, you can probably do so with the thinkpad-modules stuff
<mjg59> Kinnison: Fucking rock
<mjg59> bob2: Alternatively, make the kernel work
<mjg59> (you probably still won't be able to tell the difference between lid and suspend calls, but still)
<Kinnison> mjg59: So I have a set of acpi scripts/events for lock, brightness
<Kinnison> mjg59: and suspend/hibernate work
<bob2> mjg59: hm, it's a t23, which apparently has unusable acpi support in addition to apm
<lamont_r> daniels: not that any of us care, but I have 77 build logs (failures) that mention -lXinerama - I expect that most of those are missing build-deps...
<mjg59> bob2: Oh arse
<mjg59> How unusable is the acpi?
<mjg59> Kinnison: Hurray
<daniels> lamont_r: bounce me  alist
<mjg59> Kinnison: And they work properly, rather than in a crack-addled manner?
<daniels> lamont_r: well, of the ones that should be fixed
<bob2> mjg59: hm, seems the kernel blacklisted it
<mjg59> bob2: Oh, because of an excessively old BIOS?
<bob2> mjg59: sounds like it
<mjg59> bob2: What does dmidecode say the BIOS date is?
<daniels> acpi=force, yo
* mgedmin has a t23
* mgedmin wants power management to work well
* mgedmin currently runs debian with 2.4 kernel and with apm, where everything works
<mjg59> Hoary is going to have totally rad laptop support
<thom> lamont_r: yes
<fabbione> mjg59: do we need more kernel patches?
<haggai> lunch is about to be put out
<haggai> mjg59: my software suspend is completely screwed too
<ross> mgedmin: 2.6.9 works well with acpi on my X22, anything below that failed
<haggai> uh, hibernation
<fabbione> lamont_r: i am more for linux-source-break-my-box-hard
<Simira> *phew*
<mgedmin> bob2: I have disabled suspend on lid close somehow on my t23; reguar suspend event (Fn+F4) still work
<Simira> seens like I may get the insurance money for my camera, at least, even though I don't have the reciept or anything.
<mjg59> haggai: How so?
<fabbione> linux-source-bleeding-edge
<mgedmin> bob2: I don't remember if I did that with tpctl, with the bios, or if I booted to windows -- it was ages ago
<fabbione> that's it
<bob2> 22:00:35      Nemesis__ |  Release Date: 05/08/2002
<bob2> 22:00:43      Nemesis__ |  Characteristics:
<bob2> 22:00:56      Nemesis__ |  {PCI, PCMCIA, PNP, APM} is supported
<bob2> mjg59: ^
<bob2> Simira: oh, awesome
<mjg59> bob2: Weird. I'd expect that to do acpi happily.
<ross> i wonder if my desktop supports acpi suspend to disk
<mjg59> ross: Define acpi suspend to disk
<mjg59> S4OS (like swsusp) is the ACPI spec's preferred suspend to disk mechanism
<daniels> s4bios, yo
<mjg59> S4BIOS is mostly deprecated
<daniels> heh, yeah
<daniels> my omnibook *ostensibly* did s4bios, but in reality only did suspend-to-disk in apm
<ross> mjg59: i'll be happy if i can suspend to disk, don't care how :)
<mjg59> ross: swsusp ought to do it
<mjg59> Oh, rock
<mjg59> John Fremlin seems to have written apm event rejection code
<mjg59> http://john.fremlin.de/programs/linux/offbutton/index.html - makes apm work like acpi
<haggai> mjg59: repeated kernel oopses
<mjg59> haggai: What sort?
<Kinnison> mjg59: I was pondering adding some code to power/disk.c to decide when it's not worth freeing memory any more
<mjg59> Kinnison: Feel free
<Kinnison> mjg59: but since it takes forever for swsusp to decide how many pages to copy; I figured it'd be easier to let it free stuff
<mjg59> Pavel's got various speedups for post 2.6.10
<mjg59> Heh
<mjg59> Yeah
<mjg59> haggai: When do you get the oopses and what do they look like?
<fabbione> tho
<fabbione> ciao enrico !
<Simira> hi enrico! In Taiwan?
<enrico> Hi everyone!
<enrico> Landed safely and happily in Taiwan, spent the weekend to buy and setup the new laptop, now I'm alive online and kicking!
<Simira> oooh
<fabbione> hey Simira 
<Simira> buy me a new cam as well?
<teo> enrico, new Laptop? :)
<Simira> hi fabbione
<thom> ciao enrico. are you a member of the X40 cabal now?
<mjg59> We had 3 X40 people in the pub yesterday
<enrico> thom: TINC!
<enrico> (what is a X40?)
<mjg59> Ubuntu's favourite laptop
<HcE> IBM ThinkPad X40 :love:
<HcE> ;)
* HcE is a T40p user
<elmo> mjg59: freaking cult
* Simira also wants one!
<daniels> elmo: one of us ... one of us ... one of us ... one of us ...
<Treenaks> Just.. the.. two of you?
<haggai> mjg59: during lots of dots, not sure what exactly it is doing.  I couldn't use the hibernate.sh script at all - the display was turned off.  I had to do it by echo -n disk >/sys/power/state
<haggai> mjg59: seemed to be oopsing in the scheduler
<jdub> mjg59: dude, you had an acpi-support 0.10 in your archive a while ago, and now it's 0.9+mjg... -> turns out that's why my suspend to ram sucked
<jdub> mjg59: now it's *awesome*, and very fast
<mjg59> Ah, right
<mjg59> Heh
* enrico bought an Asus because he's in Taiwan
<mjg59> haggai: If you could extract the oops, that would be rad
<enrico> This thing runs Linux so well!
<mjg59> haggai: If you want to use the script, then comment out the dpms off call
<mjg59> jdub: No excessively dodgy graphical glitches?
<jdub> mjg59: not really, no
<jdub> mjg59: some times a double X refresh
<jdub> hey enrico 
<enrico> jdub: hey!
<mjg59> jdub: Yeah, you'll get that at the moment
<mjg59> jdub: Can you try disabling Option VBERestore and see if it still works?
<daniels> jdub: yeah, the vbe mode switch is bong
<daniels> mjg59: you'll sometimes get straight mode switches doing that
<daniels> mjg59: it's random afaict
<mjg59> daniels: ?
<mjg59> Oh, right
<daniels> yeah
<daniels> mode switch will sometimes switch to nothing, backlight comes on, flashes off, whole screen flashes, backlight cycles again, screen flashes twice, and it's switched
<daniels> haven't been able to find a pattern yet
<jdub> hmm, ok, commented
<jdub> will see what happens next time
<daniels> Mithrandir: hmm, so is /usr/X11R6/lib32/libGL.so* a diversion already?
<daniels>                 rm -f /usr/X11R6/lib/modules/extensions/libGLcore.a
<daniels>                 rm -f /usr/X11R6/lib/modules/extensions/libglx.a
<daniels> oh man, nvidia-glx is so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, wrong
<Mithrandir> daniels: I don't think so?
<daniels> Mithrandir: ok, I think I know how to do it now
<Kamion> nvidia-glx-wrong.so.so.so.so.so.so.so.so.so.so.so.so # because sonames are good
* thom throws foil balls at kamion
* Kinnison joins in
<Mithrandir> Kamion: that's true.
<Kamion> using the secret teleporter between rooms, apparently
<Kinnison> *nod*
<thom> Kamion: it's magic
<Keybuk>  .la, a note to follow .so
<Kinnison> Throw the ball hard enough and it tunnels through the wall
<Kamion> QUANTUM BALLS
<Treenaks> quantum tunnels?
<jdub> Keybuk: that's the funniest hacker joke EVER
<Kamion>  Goodness gracious, great balls of foil
* Kinnison murders Keybuk and Kamion 
<Keybuk> by feeding them chocolate?
<thom> i vote we kill every one involved with libtool, and their children, and their childrens children, lo unto the third generation
<Kamion> Keybuk: yes please
<Kinnison> Kamion: come get some
<Keybuk> Kamion: Kinniwinni has some
* Kinnison has plenty
<Kamion> BONUS
* Treenaks adds Keybuk's song to his sig file
<ogra> heh
<Treenaks> ogra: hey, you back in northern europe yet? :)
<ogra> Treenaks: everything is frozen here :( 
<Treenaks> ogra: here as well...
<Treenaks> -1C in Amsterdam
<Keybuk> you're home now?
<Treenaks> Keybuk: I've been home for the last 2 days
<Keybuk> aww
<ogra> thats how -4 looks like http://www.grawert.net/131204%20000.jpg
<jdub> pitti: i don't think it's worth bothering with a system polypaudio daemon
<jdub> hey ogra 
<ogra> guys... STAY where you are !
<ogra> hey
<pitti> jdub: why not? are several parallel instances work together well?
<jdub> ogra: i'll be going back to summer :)
<pitti> ogra: Hi ogra
<pitti> ogra: had a nice trip?
<ogra> damned
<mvo> hi ogra 
<ogra> yep....was so tired....the night before was to long :)
<jdub> pitti: not really, will chat to you about it later
<ogra> hi mvo
<jdub> pitti: it's really designed to be a user daemon
<smurfix_> Igitt
<haggai> has anyone got a serial cable with them?
<haggai> for logging oops stuff
<daniels> dpkg-shlibdeps: warning: format of libfglrx_gamma.1 not recognized
<daniels> daniels@catsby:~/canonical/kernel/l-r-m/linux-restricted-modules-2.6.9-2.6.9/debian% find ./ -name libfglrx_gamma.1
<daniels> daniels@catsby:~/canonical/kernel/l-r-m/linux-restricted-modules-2.6.9-2.6.9/debian% 
<Treenaks> cool
<pitti> amu: I can reproduce the mtr crash in my debug version
<daniels> Mithrandir: ping
<Simira> daniels: he has to leave for his exam now
<daniels> Simira: ahr, wish him good luck
<Simira> I will
<daniels> Simira: cheers
<Simira> (guess he's not left, and reads this, though)
<daniels> any hoary nvidia-glx users around?
<thom> Mithrandir: 'luck, dude
<daniels> ahr
<daniels> Mithrandir: g'luck!
<Mithrandir> daniels: pong
<Mithrandir> haven't left yet.
<Mithrandir> I'll be off in a couple of minutes, though
<daniels> ah, rad
<daniels> just wanting you to test some nvidia stuff and optionally borrow root on your machine to test out some wacky x stuff involving relinking the nvidia driver so we can load it with libgl, but concentrate on your exam :)
<Mithrandir> sure, I'll prod you when I'm back.
<daniels> cheers dude
* Mithrandir leaves for exam.
<daniels> g'luck!
* Simira hushes Mithrandir out of the door
<Treenaks> Simira: didn't you have exams as well? 
<Simira> Treenaks: yes, I'm done, luckily
<Treenaks> Simira: did they go well?
<Simira> that remains to see, Treenaks. I hope I won't fail (again).
<Simira> there were some hard questions, but I also managed some.
<fabbione> applying patch 0000_2.6.9_to_2.6.10rc3 to ./ ... ok.
<fabbione> applying patch 0001_2.6.10rc3_to_2.6.10rc3bk7 to ./ ...
<fabbione> MUHA UHA UHA
<daniels> if anyone wants sheer crack, please test 157/~daniels/xorg/*.deb
<daniels> that's a libdl-based loader with speed hacks
<mjg59> fabbione: CRACK.
<mjg59> But cool crack, regardless
<mjg59> fabbione: There's lots of new shit in .10 that wants to be switched on
<mjg59> (intelfb would be a good start)
<daniels> ooo, intelfb
<fabbione> mjg59: these will be linux-source-bleeding-edge
<mjg59> And ibm-acpi
<fabbione> and when there is a major release we will just branch stable from that one
<fabbione> wince patches will be already in sync
<fabbione> much easier than handling major release each time
<mjg59> Yeah
<daniels> ah, the xorg debs there are broken, don't worry about it
<mjg59> thom: Something has just sprung to mind
<thom> mjg59: oh?
<mjg59> thom: acpid serialises events, so if there are multiple power events occuring more than once every 5 seconds, power.sh will have a pile of events to flush
<mjg59> So if you attempt to suspend, you'll have to wait ages for them to get through the system
<thom> urgh
<mjg59> It probably wants a lockfile and to background itself
<thom> so what, enter power.sh, lock, background, ignore everything else until you finish? what will acpid do with events that come through while it runs? store them and retry when power.sh comes back?
<mjg59> enter power.sh, lock, background, sleep, remove lockfile
<mjg59> power.sh events that are run while the lockfile is there should just exit
<mjg59> anything else shouldn't check the power.sh lockfile
<thom> ok
<thom> sounds like a plan
* sid77 hi
<Treenaks> mjg59: that sounds like it might fix my "resuspend on wakeup" problem :)
<lamont_r> fabbione: any cryptoloop related hackery in our 2.6.9 kernels?
<daniels> anyone here use the nvidia binary driver?
<Treenaks> lamont_r: wasn't cryptoloop deprecated in favor of dm-crypt?
<lamont_r> Treenaks: prolly - not relavant to the bug I'm working on though
<fabbione> lamont_r: we support it, meaning that it is in the vanilla kernel. we don't have any extra patch on top of it
<lamont_r> fabbione: that was the question
<lamont_r> thanks
<thom> I AM SO STUPID IT HURTS
<daniels> ... yes
<Treenaks> thom: we know
<mjg59> thom: You've mailed the private key again?
<thom> mjg59: :P
<thom> no, no
<thom> not quite that level of stupid
<daniels> < thom> does anyone know how to make a revocation certificate?
<mjg59> thom: What have you done, then?
<thom> mjg59: just forgotten to handle the upgrade case in portmap correctly
<thom> even though there was a big note in the bug to remind me to do so
<thom> bugzilla needs blink tags
<mjg59> Haha
<mjg59> thom sucks
<Treenaks> People, a Dutch user just sent me a huge "Thank you" mail praising ubuntu etc. :)
<thom> mdz: 14:16 < thom> I AM SO STUPID IT HURTS
<mdz> thom: context?
<daniels> mdz: portmap
<mdz> ah
<thom> fixing now
<mdz> Subject: apt_0.6.27_source.changes ACCEPTED
<mdz> (->hoary)
<Kamion> w00t
<thom> nice
<mdz> FIRE IN THE HOLE
<Treenaks> that's the signature-checking one?
<mdz> yes
<Treenaks> w00t
<mdz> once it's built, python-apt, synaptic and aptitude need rebuilds
<daniels> nice :)
<Treenaks> mjg59: when will your acpi-support package be in hoary proper?
<daniels> Treenaks: funny you should mention that -- i'm working on it now
<Treenaks> daniels: coolness
* lamont_r whacks thombot
<thom> um?
<lamont_r> it's not a circular build-dep, it's a self-build-dep
<lamont_r> :-)
<azeem> does it make notes during the build?
<azeem> s/make/take/
<daniels> lamont_r: either way, lucky you! ;)
<thom> no, it's circular, innit?
<daniels> thom: circular is foo -> bar -> foo
<thom> mcs -> mono -> mcs
<thom> mdz: fixed now, anyway
<lamont_r> thom: mcs is the source for mono-assemblies-base
<lamont_r> which Depends: mono-jit
<thom> yes, and the build dep is on mono-util, which is out of mono
<lamont_r> yeah
<lamont_r> really.  hrm.
<lamont_r> anyway, not a big issue, just being a PITA.
* daniels slaps mjg59.
<thom> yeah
<Simira> iiiik!
<Simira> A pink cow!
<Treenaks> Simira: drugs are bad, m'kay?
<Treenaks> (says the person who works above a coffee shop in Amsterdam)
<sid77> lol!
<Simira> (my sister started using Ubuntu yesterday, because she fancied the Bouncing cow. And now her boyfriend has made her a pink-with-white-heart-texture for it)
<Simira> Treenaks: you should know then
<fabbione> Kamion: ping
<mjg59> daniels: Mm?
<Simira> fabbione: Want a pink cow?
<fabbione> Simira: ehehhe
<mjg59> daniels: What's up?
<fabbione> Kamion: there is Jesus installing ubuntu on his ppc and it is doing some weird stuff in base-config
<fabbione> Kamion: mind to come down and take a look
<fabbione> ?
<Treenaks> Jesus uses ubuntu?
<Treenaks> do the Americans know?
<azeem> Mr T uses Ubuntu!!1
<daniels> mjg59: 
<daniels> New version specified (1.0.4-1ubuntu2) is less than
<daniels> the current version number (1.0.4-1ubuntu1+mjg59-1)!
<Keybuk> UBUNTU SAVES!
<mjg59> Oh. That's unfortunate.
<Keybuk> 1.0.4 << 1.0.4-1ubuntu1+mjg59
<sid77> AND ONLY TAKES HALF DAMAGE! (damn d'n'd infiltration)
<Treenaks> call it 1.0.5 and be done with it?
<daniels> ... except it wouldn't be 1.0.5?
<Keybuk> children, repeat after me ... "the last hyphen separates the upstream version and Debian revision"
<daniels> heh
<mjg59> Yeah, should have been mjg591
<mjg59> Sorry about that
<Treenaks> daniels: or just put 1: in front :)
<mjg59> Epoch!
<mjg59> Haha
<daniels> NO
<daniels> no epoch
<daniels> mjg59: so are your scripts working sufficiently well to be the default?
<daniels> mjg59: i'm thinking of uploading your acpi-support plus a couple of sleeps around the chvt plus acpid
<mjg59> daniels: Ok, rock
<mjg59> They ought to be fine
<mjg59> But ideally I'd merge the support tools into videotool first
<mdz> AHEM: if you're on the Ubuntu team and you're downstairs in the ballroom, you ought to be upstairs in the BOF room
<daniels> phat
<daniels> mjg59: ah, right
<mjg59> Which I /might/ get done this evening
<daniels> i thought it was already merged?
<Kamion> if anyone's still downstairs, can they tell Jesus Climent that I'll be down after this BOF?
<mjg59> daniels: No, I did the ITP but haven't written the code
<mjg59> (bad matthew)
<daniels> heh, ahr :)
<ross> does jesus still have his girl's phone?
<thom> the phone rocks
<thom> no dissing of the dasherphone
<pasc> Kamion: he's just gone up
<daniels> ringringringringringringringring bananaphone
<ross> haha
<thom> *smite*
<ross> it's interesting, i'll give it that
<Keybuk> daniels: the problem with them making the default is that they don't fail gracefully for people without suspend support
<daniels> Keybuk: correct, but it's not the default action
<thom> s/(them) (making)/\2 \1/
<daniels> i.e. lid !-> suspend
<Keybuk> daniels: last time I looked, hibernate was the default for the power button
<mjg59> We need gdmflexiserver support for suspend and hibernate, too
<mjg59> Keybuk: hibernate ought to work for pretty much everyone
<thom> yup, that's on the list
<Keybuk> doesn't work for me :-/
<thom> (flexiserver)
<mjg59> Keybuk: What, hibernate?
<mjg59> In what way?
<Keybuk> doesn't even sleep
<mjg59> It's not meant to sleep
<mjg59> It's meant to power off
<Keybuk> it doesn't do that either
<Keybuk> just crashes a bunch of panel applets
<mjg59> What does dmesg say?
<mjg59> (Given that this is going to be enabled by default, having bug reports would be nice)
<Keybuk> nothing notable
<mjg59> So your entire bug report is that it doesn't work and dmesg contains nothing notable?
<Keybuk> I'm a little busy right now, will crash my laptop later
<mjg59> Heh
<mjg59> Ok, no problem
<Keybuk> can turn on mondo-debugging and see what I get
<daniels> that's not the umount -l / thing?
<Keybuk> it looked like it decided not to continue with the suspend and resumed
<fabbione> Keybuk: so during the next week someone will start importing kernel tarballs
<fabbione> right?
<Keybuk> fabbione: give me 10 minutes to finish the current conversation
<elmo> thom: how does that -ubuntu3 change not violate the GoldenRule ?
<elmo> thom: sorry, genuninely not trolling and/or trying to be awkard, but it's a change that opens port, and it's being done semi-unconditionally
<thom> elmo: you mean ubuntu2? that's what ubuntu3 is for
<thom> see "SO STUPID IT HURTS" comments
<thom> elmo: 2 removed the defaults file, 3 puts it back for people upgrading from older versions
<mxpxpod> good job on the panel menu
<mxpxpod> it looks very nice
<thom> mjg59: btw, mind if I reassing 3256 to you?
<mjg59> thom: Oh, sure
<mjg59> It ought to be pretty much fixed at the moment, though
<thom> yup, 's'what i figured
<thom> elmo: did that explanation make sense?
<thom> mjg59: any thought on doing 4501 better?
<elmo> thom: well, I'm horribly confused now - I notice it's conditional on /etc/default/portmap not existing, but it does in debian sid and ubuntu warty, so I'm confused as to how this postinst change'll ever really be applied.. in any event my original complaint was clearly bogus, so just ignore me
<thom> elmo: debian/default was shipped in the package, is not any longer, so that goes away during unpacking. if we're upgrading and it's not there, we recreate it
<mjg59> thom: Check ownership of /tmp/.Xwhatever instead?
<mxpxpod> where are the build logs for mono for powerpc?
<mjg59> Hrm. No, they're owned by root
<thom> mxpxpod: lamont is looking at mono currently, should get resolved soon (people.ubuntu.com/~lamont/buildLogs/m/m{cs,ono}
<mjg59> thom: Nothing springs to mind
<mxpxpod> thom: awesome, thanks
<lamont_r> thom/mxpxpod: i386 will happen shortly, ppc will take a little longer...
<mxpxpod> lamont_r: how long, roughly?
<lamont_r> mxpxpod: step 1) get powerpc sid binaries where the buildd can fetch them, or (1a) give up and manually copy them around... I'm trying to be lazy...
<mxpxpod> lamont_r: hehe, I don't blame you... I'll quit bugging you so you can work on it
<daniels> mataro people who want to test shiny new fastish x.org: deb http://192.168.0.157/~daniels/ xorg/
<thom> does it work now?
<daniels> thom: yah
<daniels> not with fglrx or nvidia binary driver atm tho
<fabbione> daniels: we need to prepare some slides :-)
<daniels> ahr
<fabbione> or at least go into details on what to talk
<fabbione> like "The undiscussed importance of /var/log/Xorg.0.log"
<jdub> okay
<jdub> so
<jdub> who noticed that my fly was open before lunch?
<ross> ha
<thom> you may be very upset to learn that i really don't look at your crotch. ever.
<azeem> everybody who watched the Theora stream, I'd guess
<fabbione> jdub: in italy we say "Open fly... dead bird inside..."
<fabbione> now get it ;)
<thom> you iye-teyes are nuts.
<mvo> where can I lock my screen with the new menu?
<Kamion> http://www.plokta.com/plokta/issue23/teapot.htm
<seb128> mvo, System menu
<mvo> it's not here, am I missing a package?
<seb128> no, just killall gnome-panel
<seb128> there is a bug
<seb128> the menu is refreshed sometimes and the special entries are not added again
* jdub goes to look for his starship troopers submachinegun
<mvo> ahhhhh ... back again! nice :) thanks seb128 
<seb128> np
<seb128> vuntz is hidding since this morning, I'm wondering if he did that on purpose and just run away while laughing on the number that will ask what's going on with the panel package :)
<sivang> Hi everybody!
<Simira> hi sivang
<Treenaks> hey siv
<Treenaks> http://www.koreus.com/files/200408/radiohead_creep.html
<Treenaks> uh
<sivang> Treenaks : I don't have the flash pluging working :-/
<thom> GRAH, sorting bugs by number is so much less useful than sorting them by severity it makes my ears bleed
<daniels> thom: or status, even better
<thom> urgh, no
<daniels> it's useful when you're good about sorting
<daniels> new/assigned/needinfo/pendingupload is an awesome metric for my bug list
<thom> daniels: i mean for the default
<daniels> oh, fo'sho
<thom> i just blew away my .gnome*
<trulux> hi
<trulux> doko, ping
<daniels> thom: oops.
<thom> becuase i had so much CRACK in my session
<thom> it took minutes to log in
<daniels> hah
<seb128> thom, ~/.gnome2/session is the session
<thom> yeah, i was bored
<lamont_r> thom: where should I send the build log for the (FTBFS) mono?
<thom> lamont_r: still ftbfs? on x86 and ppc,or?
<fabbione> lamont_r: /dev/null
<lamont_r> x86.  I expect that ppc is a tomorrow thing.
<fabbione> linux-source-bleeding-edge_2.6-10rc3bk7.diff.  54% 5056KB  46.1KB/s   01:32 ETA
<thom> lamont_r: /me looks around and points at fabbione. i'm sure he cares
<lamont_r> lol
<fabbione> thom: uh why do i care?
<lamont_r> anyway, actually mcs that's failing - build log should hit people.u.c in about 5 minutes
<fabbione> lamont_r: did mono enter main or something?
<lamont_r> fabbione: nah - it has build-deps that needed love
<lamont_r> s/needed/need/ :-)
<fabbione> oh
<fabbione> linux-source-bleeding-edge_2.6.orig.tar.gz     11% 5124KB  51.8KB/s   12:48 ETA
<fabbione> MUHA MUHA MUHA
<robtaylor_> well.. time for me to start saying my goodbyes...
<fabbione> lamont_r: mind to try to build wvstream on perfectly clean hoary chroot? i really can't understand why it doesn't build on sparc
<mjg59> fabbione: You've got all the ubuntu patches ported to that?
<fabbione> mjg59: yup
<fabbione> i need to workaround some packaging limitation atm
<fabbione> ./debian/make-substvars linux version.Debian debian/monolith/list 
<fabbione> Line 1: patch patch-bleeding-edge-10rc3bk7 is not well-founded
<fabbione> Patch for 2.6-10rc3bk7 must be listed
<fabbione> stuff like this
<mjg59> fabbione: Fucking rock.
<mjg59> I'll play with that later.
<fabbione> mjg59: it's not uploaded yet
<fabbione> i need to sync the config files first
<fabbione> that will take sometime
<fabbione> i will do the first upload tomorrow
<cenerentola> ciao
<Kinnison> Evening
<Kinnison> How was the perl conference?
* Keybuk waves elaborately
<daniels> represent
<cenerentola> kinnison: ...well very nice..
<Kinnison> cenerentola: did you meet ermintrude?
<cenerentola> until "Python for perl programmers"
<thom> word.
<cenerentola> no, mate.
<daniels> word to the stars
<Keybuk> word up to the mataro massive
<Kinnison> cenerentola: Michael Stevens?
<daniels> http://192.168.0.157/~daniels/02 - goldnsoulja - el presidente.mp3
<daniels> these guys make goldie lookin' chain look like professionals; it's free to redistribute, etc, etc
* Keybuk explains to daniels about "URL escaping"
<daniels> Keybuk: failure to care
<Kinnison> daniels: Also dude... RFC1918 address on a global IRC channel
<daniels> Kinnison: lots of those flying around lately
<sladen> daniels: Works for Me(tm)
<Kinnison> daniels: heh
<mjg59> I will TUNNEL into your network using IRC
<Kinnison> eep
<Kinnison> NSTX gone bad
<daniels> ip-over-irc, hmm
<daniels> that's a pretty awesome idea
<Treenaks> daniels: irc-over-ip-over-irc
<Treenaks> etc. ad infinitum
<daniels> Treenaks: well, yeah
<daniels> i'm not suggesting we transition the entire internet to this
* mjg59 boggles at http://www.broad.mit.edu/wga/faq.html
<mjg59> "You've found a bug that only appears if your environment does not contain the variable LD_LIBRARY_PATH. To fix it, set that variable to some value, such as "/usr/lib"."
<mjg59> NO NO NO
<Treenaks> ?
<mjg59> Some people shouldn't be allowed to write code
<mxpxpod> lamont_r: how comes the mono stuff?
<thom> mxpxpod: it's broken
<mxpxpod> thom: I know, but lamont_r was working on it earlier... so I was wondering how he was coming with it
<lamont_r> mxpxpod: there is a new build log for mcs.  someone needs to fix that.
<thom> it's still broken
<fabbione> did anybody received mails about PGP global directory something
<fabbione> ?
<fabbione> and in detail.. who the hell are they to mail me?
<lamont_r> mxpxpod: it's universe... I have enough work that dealing with nudging build-dep loops out of the way still fits in the job description, but actually working on the package is out-of-scope for me right now.
<lamont_r> fabbione: yeah, they're sending them out.
* lamont_r hasn't seen them yet, though
<fabbione> lamont_r: and nobody reported them as spammers?
<fabbione> + their engine is not ven clever enough to recognize expired/revoked uid
<haggai> calc: I see you're here.  I created #kubuntu-devel for the KDE stuff
<lamont_r> fabbione: that may be why I didn't get them..
<fabbione> lamont_r: they flood all the uid on the key
<fabbione> they will arrive to you too
<lamont_r> yeah
<fabbione> i am not going to click on the links
<fabbione> if they want the key they will import it themself
<fabbione> without considering that it is soo buggy
<fabbione> it missed one valid uid on one of my key
<fabbione> and it reports that my key has been signed by 985 persons
<fabbione> that it's not true
<fabbione> becuase it didn't do a uniq id sig check
<fabbione> food bof :-)
<Kamion> 19:40 < joeyh> -extern struct tty_ldisc ldiscs[] ;
<Kamion> 19:40 < joeyh> +extern struct tty_ldisc tty_ldiscs[] ;
<Kamion> apparently that's the source of a kernel ABI break
<Kamion> do we have that?
<mjg59> Yargh
<lamont_r> mono is ftbfs in a current sid chroot.. Go Debian!
<mjg59> daniels: Your livejournal confuses me
<shaya> is there a good way to disable gpg checking for apt repositories that don't have it so I dont get a warning each time?
<shaya> never mind
<Mithrandir> is thumb broken with .tif files for anybody but me?
<Mithrandir> s/thumb/g&/
#ubuntu-devel 2004-12-25
<Kamion> do we have any idea what's wrong with gnomemeeting? (uninstallable)
<Mithrandir> not on i386?
<Kamion> powerpc/amd64
<Mithrandir> was updated today, at least
<RubenV> heh, this is weird
<RubenV> the logout link in my panel is gonee
<RubenV> http://files.lambda1.be/screenshots/panel-logout-gone.png
<srbaker> jdub, yo.
<srbaker> jdub, there are some items listed as "bounty available" with your name next to them.
<jdub> morning
<srbaker> jdub, are you the person that coordinates that?
<jdub> yeah
<jdub> hola!
<jordim> hola!
<srbaker> jdub, how do you arrange that?
<srbaker> jdub, would i be competing with others to finish it first, and thereby duplicating effort?
<jdub> no
<jdub> they're not really bounties like that
<Kamion> Mithrandir: ok, figured out in conjunction with elmo, I'll fix it
<jdub> if you're keen to do one, mail me, we can sort it out and stuff
<srbaker> jdub, i am keen to do a couple
<srbaker> jdub, the gnome bt gui is the main oen
<srbaker> jdub, what's Ubuntu Pocketbook ?
<jdub> it's a starter's guide to ubuntu
<jdub> the doc team are working on it
<srbaker> ahh
<jon1012> hello :)
<jon1012> (do you know when the mono packages will be fixed ?)
<jon1012> (on hoary)
<jon1012> (because one part is in .2 and another in .4, which blocks any upgrade or change in the mono packages on my system :/)
<usual> what is the formal way to request software to be packaged?
<lamont_r> usual: is it something in debian?
<usual> lamont, not offically, no
<lamont_r> what package?
<lamont_r> the simplest way is to get it into debian, and then it just shows up in universe...
<usual> I was on planet.gnome.org and saw a link to a systray plugin for xchat, it looks great. I found a deb and tried it, everything works fine except no icon in the tray
<lamont_r> but otherwise, it's a discussion on the ubuntu-devel mailing list, possibly predated by discussion here.
<usual> gotcha
<lamont_r> gnome crack tends to get tracked pretty solidly, given the team...
<usual> http://sourceforge.net/project/showfiles.php?group_id=88437
<usual> if your interested
<lamont_r> I'll pass that along
<usual> ty
<usual> It is very nice to minimise to systray and be notified of nick highlights etc
<lamont_r> usual: actually, could you toss me an email, so it doesn't fall through the cracks?
<usual> lamont_r, sure, what is the address
<lamont_r> lamont@canonical.com
<usual> ok, I will include the url's as well
<lamont_r> (then I can just forward your mail to the right folks, and be even lazier...)
<lamont_r> thanks
<usual> hehe
<usual> Thank you
<usual> lamont_r, sent you the info
<lamont_r> thanks
<usual> np :)
<usual> lamont_r, here is the blurb I saw it on on planet gnome
<usual> http://pubcrawler.org/archives/000567.html
* lamont_r sleeps
<wasabi> So... what's up with Mono? Is it going to be in Hoary, all maintained and ready to go?
<jdodson> knock, knock.
<mjg59> Hello
<jdodson> any developers in the house?
<mjg59> Most of them are in Spain at the moment, and it's 3AM there
<mjg59> So probably not :)
<jdodson> right, cant wait for them to get back....
<jdodson> :)
<mjg59> What's up?
<jdodson> i mean i can, sorry type.
<jdodson> type=typo.
<jdodson> that line should have read "right, i can wait for them to get back."
<Clint> mjg59: you don't qualify as question-worthy
<jdodson> i have a solaris keyboard at work and come home to a non-solaris board, takes a few mins to get used to.
<jdodson> clint: i need to talk to a developer about mentoring me for becoming a package maintainer, kinda makes sense to talk to a developer.
<jdodson> clint: no offense to any non-developers.
<wasabi> argh.
<wasabi> trashapplet is crashing left and right
<mjg59> Clint: Damnit
<Clint> mjg59: your debian streetcred is meaningless here
<mjg59> How about my ACPI streetcred?
<kylem> meaningless as well!
<kylem> <- no streetcred at all. ;-)
<mjg59> Laptop users give me mad phat streetcred
* chrisa stares
* Clint throws puppies at chrisa.
<chrisa> What? It's not cool just to kick them anymore? You have to throw them at me?
<jdodson> i was not trying to say any debian developer is worthless.
<jdodson> clint: i think you are taking what i am saying in a way i dont mean, or you are being synical(something hard to convey via text).
<Clint> relax, we're joking around
<jdodson> clint: sorry, i dont mean to offend anyone, its hard to judge what people mean via text.
<Clint> I understand.
<chrisa> You get pretty good at it after a while
* jvw notes this is #ubuntu-devel, not #debian-devel :)
<chrisa> For instance, if I call kylem a tosser he'll just assume I'm being an idiot
<kylem> crap. how did you know!
<Clint> jvw: not for long. muahahaha.
<chrisa> I didn't! Muiaha
<jdodson> chrisa: funny.
<jvw> Clint: I *knew* it :)
<Clint> no one around to force any channel code of conduct right now
<kylem> ubuntu needs hot-babe.
<Clint> it's already got mplayer and amd64, why not?
<jvw> How flamy are ubuntu-lists?
<Mithrandir> jvw: not.
<Clint> except the people that get gated in via the "forums"
<jvw> so, no risk of ubuntu ever threatening Debian then
<chrisa> Adding a forum portal sounds like a good way to ruin the lists
* Mithrandir notes it's 03:18 here and goes to bed.
<jvw> if ubuntu has mplayer, why doesn't Debian have it?
<wasabi> ubuntu doesn't.
<jvw> ah, Clint spreading disinformation here then :)
<jvw> http://archive.ubuntulinux.org/ubuntu/pool/multiverse/m/mplayer/
<jvw> what is multiverse?
<wasabi> mplayer is in multiverse?
<wasabi> maybe it's just in the pool
* wasabi bit confused.
<jvw> (I found http://www.ubuntulinux.org/support/documentation/faq/helpcenterfaq.2004-10-20.1228090247 by the way)
<usual> Setting up mplayer-586 (1.0-pre5-0.6ubuntu3) ...
<jvw> multiverse sounds like debian's non-free
<wasabi> wasabi@kyoto:~ $ apt-cache policy mplayer 
<wasabi> Candidate: (none)
<jvw> if ubuntu sees no _legal_ issues with distributing mplayer, I don't see why debian would
<wasabi> Why am I not seeing it.
<jvw> DFSGfreeness is something different of course
<wasabi> Ahh there
<wasabi> fake packages
<wasabi> EVIL
<jvw> you mean virtual :)?
<mjg59> Debian's issue with mplayer is primarily that the maintainer hasn't produced packages with the licensing issues sufficiently explained
<mjg59> multiverse is non-free stuff, yeah
<jvw> hm... I didn't know that _that_ was debian's issue
<jvw> Since there are packages in NEW, I assumed there was some more fundamental issue
<jvw> So if anyone would package a mplayer with a sufficiently well explanation of the status, it'd be acceptable for non-free...?
<mjg59> jvw: If someone could package mplayer with a sufficient explanation of its status, it could go into main
<mjg59> It's blocking on license checking
<jvw> I guess this status is completely unknown to anyone not brave enough to read -legal... as I was unable to find it when searching for it previously
<mjg59> That bit hasn't been discussed on legal, as far as I know
<mjg59> This is just from discussion with some of the poeple involved
<jvw> do you plan to do something about that?
<jvw> (Hm, maybe we should move to some debian channel)
<mjg59> What happens to a package in NEW is generally between the maintainer and the ftp-masters
<mjg59> It's up to the maintainer to deal with it
<kylem> the second it made it into Debian, i'd have to ram about a thousand bugs at it, for being an absolutely shittily written piece of software...
<mjg59> kylem: Well, yeah, it stands little chance of making it into stable for a long time
<mjg59> Horrid, horrid program
<usual> mplayer?
<mjg59> Yeah
<usual> mjg59, is there another option for a browser plugin?
<usual> vlc?
<mjg59> usual: Yurgh. There /is/ one for xine somewhere, but it sucks.
<usual> rgr
<mjg59> Mind you, most of my experience of mozplayer has also sucked.
<usual> likewise
<usual> I replaced totem-gstreamer with xine
<usual> I wonder why it's the default (gstreamer)
<farruinn> is there a meta package I can apt-get that gives a basic development environment
<mjg59> gstreamer is the way things will be in the future
<mjg59> It's just a bit fragile at the moment...
<farruinn> like, I need gcc obviously, but what else is "standard"?
<usual> I see, so it's being forced out widespread 
<mjg59> Yeah
<mjg59> The Hoary gstreamer should be much, much better
<usual> k
<usual> i'm using hoary, i'll track the progress
<usual> mjg59, any plans to add beagle/inotify to hoary?
<mjg59> usual: inotify is in the 2.6.9 kernel in hoary
<usual> ahhh
<mjg59> Beagle ought to turn up when it becomes a little less of a moving target (and when mono actually gets in)
<usual> did not know
<mjg59> usual: This is only as of a few days ago, so :)
<mjg59> Hoary also has suspend to disk support
<usual> i wasn't aware mono wasn't in
<mjg59> There's some 1.0.2 packages in universe, but 1.0.4 doesn't currently build
<mjg59> It's being worke don
<usual> mjg59, the liveCD is actually morphix correct? I was curious if the bootsplash and grub splash were going into hoary
<mjg59> The hoary livecd should be based on Hoary, rather than Morphix (in principle). Hoary /should/ have nice bootsplash, but it won't be based on the kernel patches.
<usual> k
<usual> thanks for the info
<mjg59> The idea is to have something that just runs from userspace. It ought to be pretty neat anyway.
<mjg59> On the other hand, it's currently looking like hoary ought to boot in a bit over 20 seconds or so in a decent system, so it might not be worth bothering :)
<usual> it's a 6 month cycle right?
<mjg59> Yup
<mjg59> Hoary preview should be out in March
<usual> just in time for my birthday
<mjg59> Heh
<usual> mjg59, ubuntu is a good server solution?
<mjg59> It's not really any worse than Debian
<mjg59> I'd have no qualms with using it
<usual> ok, I've had a few people that I gave cd's to ask me, they swore it was just for a desktop/workstation
<mjg59> The default install is suitable for a desktop
<mjg59> If you boot with the custom option, the installer will let you choose a different set of packages
<usual> gotcha
<mjg59> Being a good desktop doesn't stop it from being a good server
<usual> Thats what I tried to tell them heh
<usual> I've enjoyed hoary so far, very few issues for being unstable
<usual> debian unstable was somewhat similar, but more issues than ubuntu has given me
<usual> mjg59, any idea what I need installed to play dvd's with totem-gstreamer? I just did an apt-get install gstreamer0.8*
<usual> none of that helped
<usual> ahhh
<usual> people in #gstreamer tell me the gstreamer in hoary isn't new enough to play dvd's
<daniels> mjg59: http://www.livejournal.com/~mjg59/33116.html
<ironwolf> daniels: ROTFL.
* sid77 hi
<sid77> pinhead, gabba gabba hey?
<haggai> 2 evo crashes in as many minutes :(
<haggai> 4rd crash
<haggai> 3
<haggai> 4th
<haggai> now it won't even start
* haggai decides to abandon evo and set kmail up
<Tsjoklate> I have a question/request... in warty I was able to d/l the suede-icons, but now in hoary the package has been (temp?) removed... kan anyone shed some light on this?
<Kamion> suede-icons was only in warty universe, judging from my mirror
<Tsjoklate> someone will read this :)
<Kamion> can't say I know where it's gone though
<Treenaks> Kamion: yeah, why isn't it in hoary-universe then :)
<thom>  madison suede-icons
<thom> suede-icons | 0.2.5-0ubuntu1 | warty/universe | source, all
<Kamion> presumably 'cos it was removed from Debian
<Tsjoklate> I know Kamion.. I was just hoping it would return in hoary
<Kamion> ah, in fact it was Ubuntu-specific
<Kamion> so it would have been removed because we no longer use it I suppose
<Tsjoklate> thought it was an ubu deal
<thom> i don't think it was ever packaged for debian; it was nathaniel's temporary icons
<Kamion> looks like it, yes
<thom> if you want to update the package and rebuild it for hoary i'm sure someone will sponsor the package
<thom> Tsjoklate: ^
<Tsjoklate> me thom?
<Treenaks> Tsjoklate: yes you can do it :)
<Tsjoklate> I would do it.. but what do I have to do?
<Tsjoklate> you are making me nervous here Treenaks :)
<Tsjoklate> I've never done such a thing
<Tsjoklate> but I am willing to learn
<Treenaks> Tsjoklate: I can show you -- I used to be a DD :)
<Tsjoklate> problem solved thanks folks
<seb128> pitti, hello
<pitti> Hi seb128! Nice to meet you
<Treenaks> dudes.. you've been at the same conference for more than a week
<seb128> really ? :)
<pasc> I haven't
<Tsjoklate> hey pitti :)
<daniels> ross: yo dude
<Keybuk> yo, hey what's happenin' dude ?
<ross> yo yo yo
<daniels> represent!  warrrrrk!
<elmo> REPRESENT.  GOOD TIMES.
<Simira> so, what's up today?
<daniels> aside from the ceiling?
<thom> I want SICKIX branding
<daniels> sssssssssssssssseeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeebbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbb
* fabbione handles some extra crack to thom
<daniels> evolution is so broken
<Kinnison> heh
<Kamion> mvo: is there any reason why it's APT::Get::AllowUnauthenticated rather than Allow-Unauthenticated to match most of the other apt configuration variables?
<thom> CRAAAAACK
* Treenaks passes the crackpipe to thom 
<mvo> Kamion: I don't think so
<Treenaks> "This is your brain on Perl" :)
<Kinnison> "and *this* is your brain on Python" :-P
<Keybuk> "This is your brain on Small Talk"
<Treenaks> Keybuk: what's that dripping out of your ears? ;)
<seb128> daniels, any idea on why http://clipart.freedesktop.org/downloads/openclipart-0.08.tgz doesn't work ? (it used to work and I've a bug report based on it )
<seb128> bah, somebody has problably removed the file, I'll try with the 0.07 which seems to work
<oscarh> hi! i was referred here from #ubuntu, i have a question about the alps touchpad kernel driver and if it could be included in ubuntu.
<Kinnison> is the alps pad driver not integrated into the synaptics driver these days?
<oscarh> Kinnison, don't think so
<oscarh> i've got a "working" touchpad
<oscarh> but i can't use the xorg syaptics driver
<oscarh> well, i haven't tried the last few weeks though
<Kinnison> Hmm
<Treenaks> maybe it's a non-synaptics touchpad?
<Treenaks> oh wait
* Treenaks learns to read
<oscarh> nope, it's an alps touchpad
<oscarh> if i patch my kernel and rebuild it works
<oscarh> has diferent resolution than a synaptics but works as a synaptics in every other way i think
<Treenaks> hm, I have an ancient alps touchpad
<Treenaks> hmm
<oscarh> Treenaks, i hope mine isn't ancient
<oscarh> :)
<Treenaks> oscarh: well, I hope mine is supported as well :)
<oscarh> otherwise ubuntu works really good, so it's a bit anoying having to patch the kernel for just that.
<oscarh> but how does it work with kernel patches an prekompiled kernels?
<oscarh> is it even able to install a patch as an "extra" packade or do you have to use an whole other kernel?
<thom> we rejected the alps patch, can't remember why
<oscarh> thom, not that common with alps touchpads?
<thom> the problem with the alps patch is that you cannot reliably detect the difference between an alps and a standard synaptics touchpad, so you pick up an alps and try to use extended functions and it all goes wrong; the number of alps touchpads was small enough to make dropping that the best option
<Treenaks> so splitting/loading alps manually would actually be the best option?
<thom> probably, yeah, but the problem is that it's so inanely tied to the psmouse code it wasn't really worth it from a time point of view, but patches gratefully accepted ...
<oscarh> thom,  could the patch still be compiled and included as an extra package?
<thom> the problem is in the kernel's psmouse driver, not with xorg-driver-synaptics; so you'd need a kernel parameter that the psmouse module took
<oscarh> thom, sorry, lost me there, but i'm well aware that the xorg driver is still the same, and that the patch affects the kernel mouse drivers
<thom> right.  so the kernel's standard mouse driver works out which type of ps/2 mouse it is, and alps is one of those types.  you can't reliably tell alps apart in the driver, though, so the kernel driver needs an option to specify the type, and that was too much work.
<oscarh> ok, and it still is i guess.
<daniels> seb128: i don't know, the cliparts project have gone kind of wacky
<daniels> (right, my wireless card is out of ADD mode)
<oscarh> i have a secon question though, maybe it sould be addressed xorg though, but dri drivers for savage video cards?
<daniels> mmm, savage dri is still highly experimental
<daniels> i'm loathe to put it in
<Treenaks> daniels: it's hoary! :)
<daniels> (it's a patch i really, really dislike)
<daniels> Treenaks: highly experimental as in less reliable than the current savage driver
<oscarh> daniels, patch?
<daniels> which occasionally manages to actually display something
<daniels> oscarh: yeah, there's a patch available
<daniels> it's large and invasive, and whichever user uses it can write arbitrary things to any point in memory
<daniels> which is even worse than normal dri
<oscarh> daniels, isn't the savage dri work goin on in the xorg tree?
<daniels> not afaik
<oscarh> hmm, strange
<Kamion> fabbione: hm, actually maybe I'm on crack about #3685 being a kernel bug, feel free to ignore me and reassign to hotplug if you think that's the case ;)
<HcE> a very basic package question. should the postinst script be in debian/postinst ?
<Mithrandir> HcE: yes.
<HcE> =)
<Mithrandir> or debian/$package.postinst
<HcE> ok, what is most correct(tm)?
<Mithrandir> the former if you only build a single package, the latter if you build more than one.
<Mithrandir> (binary package, from the source package)
<HcE> ok
<HcE> ooh
<fabbione> Kamion: well... if the device isn't created... ;) but i don't think it's a kernel problem
<fabbione> Kamion: welcome to take it back and slip some sleeps here and there to wait for /dev/fb to wake up
<fabbione> Kamion: otherwise wait a few hours to have kernel crack of the day and test with it :P
<Treenaks> fabbione: see? you're getting addicted to the kernel :)
<Treenaks> fabbione: slowly but surely...
<daniels> sssssssssssssseeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeebbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbb
<daniels> my panel is SO BROKEN
<seb128> wwwwwwwwwwwhhhhhhhhhhhhhaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaatttttttttttttttt
<seb128> that's probably xorg's fault
<daniels> clearly a gtk bug
<daniels> i just have two solid bars of the panel's background colour at the top and bottom of my screen
<seb128> due to the xlibs ? :p
<daniels> killall gnome-panel, doesn't help
<Kamion> fabbione: /proc/fb didn't get populated either last I checked, and I'm *already* sleeping for up to 10 seconds to wait for /dev/fb!
<daniels> i blame dbus
<seb128> daniels, killall gnome-panel gnome-vfs-daemon nautilus trashapplet
<daniels> awesome
<HcE> Mithrandir: how come dpkg installs my postinst to / instead of running it? Trying the Debian-Binary-Package-Building-HOWTO without much luck
<seb128> daniels, when dbus/hal restart they just fuck the gnome-vfs-daemon
<Kamion>                                 echo "Waiting for /dev/fb/0 to appear..."
<Kamion>                                 for i in 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9; do
<Kamion>                                         [ -e /dev/fb/0 ]  && break
<Kamion>                                         sleep 1
<Kamion>                                 done
<seb128> which fucks all the GNOME stuff
<azeem> daniels: 'slay' might help as well ;)
<Kamion> (which sucks, but hey)
<daniels> seb128: that didn't help, I still have the broken panel, and now I have a new nautilus window also ;)
<sjoerd> dbus restart, it shouldn't care about hal restart
<Treenaks> sjoerd: you can't restart hal without restarting dbus using the init scripts, can you?
<seb128> daniels, are you using the drive mount applet ? In which case you need to kill it to
<seb128> too
<sjoerd> Treenaks: you can restart hal without restarting dbus
<azeem> Treenaks: you can do it manually
<Treenaks> azeem: I want an init script!
<seb128> sjoerd, dbus restart restarts hal too :p
<daniels> gnome-volume-manager?  restarting that isn't helping
<seb128> no
<seb128> /usr/lib/gnome-applets/drivemount_applet2
<azeem> daniels: just reboot
* sjoerd loves that libhal exposes dbus details to the application :)
<daniels> azeem: don't want to lose browser + vi sessions + build
<daniels> the latter being the thing that takes hours
<seb128> daniels, killall gnome-panel gnome-vfs-daemon nautilus trashapplet drivemount_applet2
<daniels> seb128: yeah, did that, didn't helpj
<seb128> hum
<seb128> no idea so :/
<seb128> I blame pitti 
<seb128> utopia stuff fault
<daniels> ah, wnck-applet seemed to be rather recalcitrant
* Treenaks pets his nmea-detect.py script for hal :)
* pitti beats up seb128 
<seb128> utch
<Treenaks> ooh, it's WW2 all over again.. the German guy beating up the French guy ;)
<daniels> seb128: killall gnome-panel gnome-vfs-daemon nautilus trashapplet drivemount_applet2 gweather-app
<daniels> let-2 wnck-applet
<sladen> daniels: swap  ESC  and  Tilde
<seb128> daniels, that works ?
<daniels> seb128: yeah
<daniels> sladen: hmm?
* thom has sweet, sweet beagle love
<Treenaks> thom: in a .deb?
<thom> Treenaks: i have all the dependencies be-debbed
<thom> beagle will happen this evening
<daniels> thom: dbus-mono still isn't built
<thom> no
<thom> because m-a-b hasn't built, either
<daniels> get to it!
<Treenaks> chop chop!
<HcE> Mithrandir: I got it right, now just fidling with enourms amount of errors from lintian
<HcE> (=
<Mithrandir> HcE: lintian -i is good
<HcE> ah
<HcE> does dpkg --build ignore CVS directories?
<Kamion> you should not be using dpkg --build by hand
<fabbione> damn i rock!
<Mithrandir> HcE: use debhelper.
<fabbione> linux-source-bleeding-edge is FTBFS on 4/5 arches
* HcE bangs his howto
<Kamion> use dpkg-buildpackage or debuild to build packages
<Treenaks> fabbione: nice one :)
<fabbione> actually 3/5
<Kamion> your howto is clueless if it recommends that; drop it immediately and find something else
<fabbione> Treenaks: with error that i have never seen before.. it seems like watching Star Trek: "Where no man has gone before..."
<Treenaks> fabbione: that's kind of cool, in a way
<fabbione> eehehe
<fabbione> daniels: is there any reason why xserver-xorg-dbg now conflicts with xserver-xorg ????
<daniels> ... it doesn't
<HcE> Mithrandir: link to a good debuild guide?
<fabbione> xserver-xorg conflicts with xserver-xfree86
<fabbione> xserver-xorg-dbg provides xserver-xfree86
<fabbione> hmmmmm
<daniels> oh, yeah
<daniels> right
<Mithrandir> HcE: debian new maintainer's guide is ok-ish
<fabbione> daniels: did you change anything over there?
<daniels> yeah, I just caught the same thing myself
<daniels> nope
* fabbione shrugs
<daniels> it provides both -xfree86 and -xorg
<fabbione> yeah
<daniels> fixed locally
<fabbione> no rush
<fabbione> it's nothing really that bad
<daniels> yeah
<fabbione> and actually i think it is more sane to have them in conflict...
<fabbione> because you don't end up in the trap of "to what is symlinked /etx/X11/X?"
<daniels> heh
<daniels> but it's kind of harsh to say 'YOU ARE A SLAVE TO DEBUGGING HAR HAR HAR'
<daniels> but when we use the elf loader, that becomes irrelevant anyway
<daniels> because it isn't stupid enough to say 'debug your server?  not any more!'
<daniels> er, dl loader
<daniels> the elf loader is the one that I hate
<fabbione> ahha
* HcE sights
<thom> pitti: wish you had asked before you did 4065 - it was not done for a reason
<thom> oh well
<pitti> thom: oh?
<pitti> thom: sorry for that
<pitti> thom: shall I upload the old version again?
<elmo> thom: might have been a plan to say that in the bug? :-p
<thom> no, no, and no
<thom> (ie, it's fine, we'll just find other stuff)
<pitti> thom: sorry again, I just went through the to-be-merged list, and since I did the initial modifications, I just merged it
<pitti> thom: what breaks now?
<thom> pitti: nothing breaks
<daniels> it's not a breakage thing, the fix is likely fine
* lamont_r calls dibs on alsa-*
<thom> pitti: just... useful for educational purposed
<lamont_r> and elilo-installer
<fabbione> we are not going to introduce gcc4 are we?
<fabbione> not for hoary at least...
<elmo> fabbione: no
<fabbione> good
<fabbione> because it can't compile the kernel yet
<fabbione> or better.. it miscompiles it
<bob2> hm, my laptop is going in suspend loops again
<thom> pffft, minor issue
<fabbione> thom: my mom is a minor issue... thousands users knocking on my door no
<fabbione> NUMA emulation support (NUMA_EMU) [N/y/?]  (NEW)  
<fabbione> DOH!
<haggai> ooh cool
<fabbione> that's only for amd64 atm
<daniels> elmo: please sync nvidia-kernel-common
<haggai> if I click lock screen while kopete is logged in, it marks me as away.  Does that happen with gaim too?
<thom> gossip used to do it
<fabbione>   CC      net/ipv4/netfilter/ipt_CLUSTERIP.mod.o
<elmo> daniels: done
<daniels> elmo: kthx
<Kamion> hmm, the death in a bag was not too deathlike today
<thom> Kamion: mutant tomato was pretty horrible
<Treenaks> ooh mutant tomato!
<Kamion> the sandwich you mean?
<thom> Kamion: in the baguette
<Kamion> mine was mostly just ham
<thom> there was mulched mutant tomato underneath the ham
<Kamion> I obviously totally ignored that
<haggai> I wondered what that stuff was
<seb128> jdub_, #3071 WONTFIX ?
<Treenaks> Mithrandir: cool photos :)
* sid77 hi
* Treenaks too
<Kamion> daniels: mind if I add udeb generation to l-r-m?
<fabbione> mdz: g1mm3 tah crack
<mdz> fabbione: APT::Get::AllowUnauthenticated=1
<fabbione> in which files?
<mdz> echo 'APT::Get::AllowUnauthenticated "1";' >> /etc/apt/apt.conf
<fabbione> thanks
<Kamion> hm, I used =true, I guess both work
<fabbione> 1 is more 1337
<pitti> doko: ping
<pitti> doko: your BoF is starting
<bob2> seb128: the frequency and battery monitors lost my preferences when going fro mwarty to hoary, is that normal?
<seb128> not normal but there is already a bug open about it
<jdub> thom: libgecko-cil only works with mozilla-browser -> suck
<sid77> is the "creating audio cds" thread still open here? because I've found an intresting program (http://www.dropline.net/optimystic/)
<ross> there is someone else making a HIGified python audio burner too
<sid77> well, I'll post it in ml... do you mind if I open another thread? I cannot access the old thread from webmail
<fabbione> debian-installer-images_20041118ubuntu9_sparc   2%  248KB  96.6KB/s   01:47 ETA
<thom> jdub: yes
<thom> much suck
* fabbione attempts the first hoary installation on sparc
<Treenaks> woooo
<robtaylor> carlos: ping?
<carlos> robtaylor: pong
<carlos> robtaylor: hi dude, sorry, I hadn't time to look at your work :-(
<robtaylor> carlos: ok, i debugged and checked in a  demoable accessd with a csv backend last night :)
<robtaylor> (flights are good =))
<carlos> :-)
<robtaylor> carlos: np, but just to let you know its usable..
<carlos> robtaylor: I cannot do it from Barcelona  - Valencia
<carlos> it's only 35 minutes
<carlos> ;-)
<robtaylor> heh
<robtaylor> once you're up, you're already comingt down...
<robtaylor> pitti, mdz: if etheir of you'd like to have a look at it, i have a bazaar repo at http://sourcecontrol.net/~rtaylor/robtaylor@fastmail.fm--2004-accessd/
* ross wonders what accessd is
<robtaylor> see accessd/test for a basic example
<robtaylor> ross: um, think of it as sudo over dbus (kinda)
<robtaylor> but not really =)
<ross> hm, interesting
<robtaylor> i seems to have lost my writeup on it :(
<pitti> robtaylor: thanks, I will take a look at it
<robtaylor> pitti: thanks :)
<pitti> robtaylor: carlos and I talked a lot about its architecture
<pitti> robtaylor: apart from a few small things it looks pretty good
<robtaylor> i heard. well this impliments the 'basic' version. I'm still keen to do the 'privilage elevation' version too, tho
<Kinnison> robtaylor: hey dude
<Kinnison> robtaylor: Not seen a mail about pub trips yet. you slackarse
* robtaylor fluffles Kinnison 
<Kinnison> oooh fluffling
<robtaylor> hey, i only just about managed to get to work this morning.. 
<robtaylor> never mind do any *thinking* or *doing*
<robtaylor> =)
<robtaylor> Kinnison: when did we decide would be a good day to do it?
<robtaylor> Kinnison: sunday/monday?
<Kinnison> robtaylor: sunday/monday is when I'm around
<Kinnison> robtaylor: saturday I'll be half-dead and tuesday I'm driving to .ed
<robtaylor> ok.
<fabbione> lamont_r: wb
<fabbione> sparc64 > ia64 :)
<fabbione> i have a working installer... do you? :P
* fabbione hides
<lamont_r> fabbione: I'm not working on ia64
<lamont_r> but I might have something akin to a working installer - dunno
<fabbione> i know... but i still love to tease you
<lamont_r> Kamion: ia64 cdroms?
<mvo> can I see my recent edited pages in the wiki?
<Kamion> lamont_r: still waiting for the base-config .deb
<Kamion> then I'll rebuild CDs and *then* they should work ...
<lamont_r> cool
<robtaylor> Kinnison: do you want to do the appropriate rallying of Uk troops currently based in mataro? ;)
<sivang> Does anybody know stewart bishops's nickname?
<thom> sivang: stub
<sivang> tnx
<Kinnison> robtaylor: post to debian-uk
<robtaylor> Kinnison: already done...
<Kinnison> robtaylor: that should be enough
<robtaylor> okly dokly
* Kinnison reads what you have written and tsks
* robtaylor crys
<Kinnison> "Kinnison and I"
<Kinnison> I ask you
<Kinnison> tsk
<robtaylor> i'm forgetting that theres more to england than cambridge.. tahts a bit worrying...
<robtaylor> oh, you dont liek Kinnson usage anywhere out of irc, ok  ;)
<robtaylor> your names too long :P
<Kinnison> 'Daniel Silverstone' is hardly wrist-breaking typage
<bob2> you can shrten the surname to just 'stone', tho
<robtaylor> hehhehe
<ross> haha
<robtaylor> or mabe silvers?
<RubenV> has anyone tested gst-ffmpeg recently?
<robtaylor> no namespace clashes there, shurly?
<robtaylor> heh
<thom> D.*[Ss] .*
<mjg59> Why does Bugzilla only have x86 kernels listed in it?
<Kinnison> robtaylor: 'dsilvers' is acceptable
<RubenV> I've just rebuilt debian gst-ffmpeg packages for ubuntu and still they act sluggish, anyone wanna test if it's just my pc or the soft?
<Kinnison> robtaylor: although few people would recognise that
<RubenV> http://files.lambda1.be/linux/gst-ffmpeg/
<robtaylor> Kinnison: i shall brave the usage of your full name in future, dont worry ;) (sorry, btw :( )
* Kinnison grins
<Simira> http://www.simira.net/UbuntuWomen.html - My article about Ubuntu and women in open source
<lamont_r> mdz/mvo either one here still?
<pitti> lamont_r: they already went to BCN
<lamont_r> ok
<bob2> Simira: nice!
<Simira> :)
<TD> hi. i'm wondering what the problem with the implementation of NetworkManager is?
<TD> http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/NetworkMagic implies it's bad somehow, but doesn't elaborate which is remarkably poor form really
<tseng> the problem is NM is flakey to the max
<tseng> there isnt a single problem that can be explained, just try using it for a few hours
<TD> if i could figure out if it was finished, supposed to work etc, i would. it doesn't seem to ship with FC3 though
<TD> i guess that's why ...
<thom> TD: the intention is that we (i) will flesh that out at some point. our problems are:
<thom> it doesn't tie into the underlying OS config at all
<thom> it's *very* unstable, and actually getting worse rather than better right now
<thom> it's bloating at a horrible rate - it now does DHCP for itself, eg
<TD> erp
<thom> the NM protocol is great. the implementation at this point is not good
* TD reads a changelog entry: "Major rework of the DHCP code, taking some cues from pump.  We don't write raw Ethernet packets anymore" ...
* sid77 bye
<TD> have these concerns been raised with red hat?
<thom> TD: as a coherent whole, no. in individual parts, a lot of them have been raised on the list
<TD> that's weird, danw claims they can't use g_spawn_sync ...
<TD> hence they have to incorporate the dhcp client code into the program itself, which sounds odd
<TD> oh, well, his reasons do seem to make senes
<thom> they're internally consistent, but it's not really a direction we were happy to follow
<TD> well, if dhcp is better done inside NM why is that a problem? i'm not sure why it has to be done by a separate process, even though that's traditional
<thom> TD: because it makes it utterly hard to integrate our config and NM
<thom> TD: NM should play with the underlying network config, not stomp all over iot
<robtaylor> thom: what about gst?
<thom> robtaylor: current plan is to use netapplet and integrate with gst well
<robtaylor> thom: ok
<TD> what is our config? you mean the custom debian scripts and such?
<thom> TD: /etc/network/interfaces etc
<TD> right
<thom> TD: on debian, network config should go via ifupdown, because you can use scripts and mappings to plug in things like guessnet and configuring smarthosts for the mta
<TD> i guess that's a philosophy issue. NM is supposed to replace it, if I understand correctly, rather than sit on top of it
<thom> yeah. which is not desirable IOO. we'll probably end up using the dbus protocol so we can do the online querying stuff for gnome and so on
<robtaylor> thom: dbus good. one tool that manages all network stufgf. then make ifup/ifdown talk  to that..
<robtaylor> (hey, and then you can use accessd *plug* ;)) 
<thom> robtaylor: *g*
<Treenaks> robtaylor: WTF is accessd?
<robtaylor> ah. i can tell i'll get asked this a lot.. i better write it up
<robtaylor> Treenaks: a dbus authorisation daemon. 
<Treenaks> robtaylor: ah, so I might use that in my hal-nmea-detect script to get access to the serial port, for example? or is it entirely intra-dbus?
<robtaylor> actually its nothing incredibly clever at all. the basic idea is each daemion that provides a service looks up which user made the requiest and asks accessd it that user has right to do that
<robtaylor> Treenaks: what does your hal-nmea-detect script do?
<robtaylor> Treenaks: current implemnation is at http://sourcecontrol.net/~rtaylor/robtaylor@fastmail.fm--2004-accessd/
<Treenaks> robtaylor: it opens the newly-detected serial port and listens for 3 seconds to see if it's a NMEA-compatible GPS
<robtaylor> Treenaks: its a dbus service?
<Kamion> daniels: l-r-m uploaded
<Treenaks> robtaylor: so it's intra-dbus,  OK
<Treenaks> :)
<Treenaks> robtaylor: it's not a dbus-based sudo-ish thing,  that's what I mean :)
<robtaylor> Treenaks: well, given it, it is trivial to implement a dbus-based sudoish thing, but that just a subset of the fnty i wanted to make possible..
* Treenaks can imagine
<robtaylor> Treenaks: i dont userstand why your script is running as the user?
<Treenaks> robtaylor: because hald runs scripts as user hal
<Treenaks> robtaylor: so there are 2 solutions: suexec or adduser hal dialout (because it's a serial port :))
<robtaylor> ah
* lamont_r grumbles at doko
<robtaylor> Treenaks: hmm. even with accessd you end up haveing to give the hal user dialout rights :/
<robtaylor> (well you can make it more fine granied..)
<bob2> selinux!
<Treenaks> bob2: here's a bar of soap. please go wash your mouth.
<robtaylor> really you want hald to say 'this script is meant for accessding this hardware device, it should have right to access it'
<robtaylor> s/ is meant for accessding/ is being run to configure
<robtaylor> hmm
<robtaylor> thats non-trivial
<robtaylor> I'll think on it.. time for home :)
<robtaylor> laters all
<zul> Treenaks: heh i started selinux for ubuntu
<daniels> Kamion: cheers
<Kamion> daniels: (hm, they told me downstairs that you'd gone to Barcelona)
<daniels> Kamion: (this LUG has wifi)
<Kamion> aha
<Treenaks> daniels: are they impressed by your leet start-up crack? :)
<carlos> seb128: dude!!! without network I'm not able to use my computer
<carlos> seb128: you broke my GNOME!!
<carlos> seb128: ;-)
<daniels> Treenaks: haven't started talking yet!
<Treenaks> daniels: you turned your laptop on, didn't you? :)
<daniels> Treenaks: well yeah, but I'm still just sitting around
<Treenaks> :)
<seb128> carlos, no way dude
<carlos> seb128: I'm not joking
<carlos> without network I cannot use GNOME
<carlos> empty desktop and empty panel
<seb128> ??
<seb128> no way
<daniels> stop using an NFS-mounted /home :P
<seb128>  killall gnome-panel gnome-vfs-daemon nautilus trashapplet
<carlos> daniels: I'm not in home
<carlos> seb128: restarting the computer
<seb128> ok
<seb128> good luck
* lamont_r welcomes input on www.ubuntu.com/wiki/ArchitectureBootstrapping
<carlos> seb128: I was trying to turn it on in the bus
<carlos> I was not able
<carlos> I will show it as soon as I'm back in matar
<seb128> ok
<TD> robtaylor|away: isn't the selinux integration supposed to do that?
<motaboy> Sorry if I'm doing a stupid question, but I'm a little kde "developer" and I'm curious to know what's the ubuntu's idea about kde. Are you searching for people that will help you with kde related stuffs?
<RubenV> motaboy: there's info about kubuntu on the wiki, i think
<motaboy> RubenV: Thanks.
<Riddell> motaboy: what sort of KDE development do you do and what sort of ubuntu kde development are you interested in?
<motaboy> Riddell: well. I started doing kde-bluetooth and now I'm a gentoo developer on the kde ebuilds, but for work I've always used both gentoo and debian
<RubenV> I'm trying to build coaster packages, if I'm successfull, I'll post a msg on the devel list
<mjg59> Anyone out there got a T-series Thinkpad that /doesn't/ consume too much battery on ACPI suspend?
<mjg59> (When suspended, you should lose about 1% of battery an hour. If it's closer to 10, you have a problem)
<lifeless> mjg59: a thought, could you add that & to ifup -a in resume.sh ?
<mjg59> lifeless: Grngk. Yeah.
<lifeless> :)
<mjg59> daniels was planning on getting stuff into hoary in the near future, so I may just let him do it
<lifeless> heh.
<daniels> mjg59: fo'shizzle
<ironwolf> fo'shizzle?
<daniels> 'absolutely'
<RubenV> checking for xmlcatalog... not found
<RubenV> configure: error:
<RubenV> *** Ooops, couldn't find xmlcatalog.  Actually this should
<RubenV> *** never happen at this point, which means your system is really broken.
<RubenV> euh, anyone knows this?
<RubenV> gah, wrong chan, sry
<Treenaks> apt-get install xmlcatalog?
<RubenV> appearantly it's in libxml2-utils
<RubenV> coaster is building now
<RubenV> let's see what it gives
<RubenV> Ok I've got coaster building & packaging
<RubenV> unfortunately it segfaults when i start it
<RubenV> i give up
<Treenaks> RubenV: apt-get install valgrind
<RubenV> can't work with valgrind (never did)
<Treenaks> RubenV: valgrind coaster<enteR>
<Treenaks> read output :)
<RubenV> that almost killed my system
<RubenV> ==15741== ERROR SUMMARY: 25 errors from 8 contexts (suppressed: 171 from 1)
<RubenV> ==15741== malloc/free: in use at exit: 1023191 bytes in 26633 blocks.
<RubenV> ==15741== malloc/free: 72451 allocs, 45818 frees, 3614708 bytes allocated.
<Treenaks> RubenV: build with debug symbols and it'll tell you the source lines and file names of the errors
<RubenV> that's gonna be for some other day
<RubenV> i'm tired of building :)
<Treenaks> :)
<Treenaks> RubenV: jump off
<RubenV> I managed to bump libbakery to 2.3.11
<RubenV> but coaster is giving me headache
<RubenV> now i know why there are no packages for coaster :)
<haggai> motaboy: hi, why don't you join us on #kubuntu-devel
<motaboy> haggai: ok, thanks
<Kamion> these CD builds are just so totally jinxed
<pitti> elmo: can you please sync mtr from Debian?
<elmo> pitti: done
<pitti> elmo: thx
#ubuntu-devel 2004-12-26
<GotD0t> nobody is to TOUCH the hoary menus, hehe, they work fine now... no more tweaking please ;-)
<thom> they so don't work
<GotD0t> ?
<GotD0t> what do you mean they don't work?
* thom is seriously tempted to add an @hourly cronjob to killall the panel
<thom> GotD0t: segfaults, bits of the panel going missing, etc etc
<GotD0t> thom: i havent experienced any of that as of late
<GotD0t> thom: so maybe they just dont like you ;-)
<thom> no, they're all known bugs
<GotD0t> well they can fix that without messing with the configuration of the actual menus
<GotD0t> because over the last week there have been hundreds of configurations and most of them were unusable
<jdub> dear whiprush, please send your great suggestions to the devel list instead of prattling on about them in your blog where i only find them because by coincidence i read planet ars, love jdub.
<whiprush> jdub: heh, ok. I'm still getting used to it, I'll do it when I get home.
<jdub> ;-)
<jdub> whiprush: dude, remember that there is a whole distro you can fix here
<whiprush> heh, k.
<whiprush> Heading home from work, I'll formulate something in an hour or two, today was my first full day with them.
* jdub has to pinch himself sometimes
<jdub> "oh yeah, we can actually FIX THAT!"
<whiprush> bbl
<jdub> later
* Kamion releases Array CD 2 and flees in the general direction of bed before anyone asks him questions about it.
<GotD0t> anybody have any ideas on killing nautilus for good, i don't want it to come back
<chrisa> rm /usr/bin/nautilus
<GotD0t> no, i mean i want to be able to use it
<GotD0t> but whenever i killall nautilus it comes back
<Riddell> GotD0t: alt-F4
<Treenaks> good morning mataro :)
<fabbione> hey Treenaks 
<ogra> good morining amsterdam :)
<ogra> (...and mataro of course)
<pitti> Hi ogra
<pitti> Hi Treenaks, how's it going
<fabbione> hye ogra
<Treenaks> pitti: I feel it's going to be a slow day today
<Treenaks> and I really need someone to poke jdub -- it's been a week since I asked him to create ubuntu-nl and it's still not done :)
* jdub is thusly poked
<jdub> Treenaks: preferred email address?
<Treenaks> jdub: ubuntu-nl@lists.ubuntu.com?
<Treenaks> jdub: or list admin?
<Treenaks> jdub: martijn@foodfight.org
<jdub> admin
<Treenaks> second one then :)
<jdub> Nederlandstalige Ubuntu-ondersteuning en -discussie
<jdub> should there be a space/hyphen there?
<Treenaks> jdub: uh, remove the - before discussie
<sladen> mjg59: you around for discussing how to do system-dtection stuff?  (Hardware DB/dmi-decode things)
<Treenaks> uh? nice quit msg
* sid77 hi
<pitti> haggai: Hi!
<sid77> I'm running hoary on a geforce powerbook, yesterday I dist-upgraded and I found my screen on 640x480 resolution. I solved the problem just adding 2 lines (vert and horiz frequencies) to xorg.conf, should this kind of info be added to rhe default xorg.conf or will this broke things up on other machine?
<fabbione> sid77: it's a bug. please check the bugzilla and lart daniels ;)
<sid77> ok :)
<daniels> sid77: it's fixed in my local tree in hoary
<daniels> er
<daniels> in my local tree, *for* hoary
<daniels> the nv driver sucks, news at 11
<lamont_r> daniels: s/news/film/
<Treenaks> lamont_r: no, that's only on pay-tv ;)
<Kamion> *groan*
<sid77> lol
<sid77> so I shouldn't file a bug, am I right?
<daniels> sid77: right
<Treenaks> daniels: I have the same problem (640x480 only, unless I add hsync/vrefresh) with the trident driver
<Treenaks> daniels: (1024x768 laptop: Toshiba Satellite something)
<daniels> cool
<Treenaks> daniels: I can file that as a bug (+ X log + xorg.conf) if you want
<daniels> nah, it's alright thanks, i'll just add that to the special case
<Treenaks> trident DOES detect the panel as a 1024x768 panel..
<stvn> daniels: is it the same bug as mine?
<daniels> stvn: i think so, yeah
<stvn> hm, i thought i had hsync/vrefresh but will try later this week
<fabbione> morning guys
<fabbione>   +?????????+ Installing the Ubuntu base system +?????????+                     
<fabbione> ^^^ hoary on sparc
<Treenaks> fabbione: it works now?
<Kamion> rock
<fabbione> Treenaks: i am testing the real first install .. but theoretically yes
<Treenaks> fabbione: leet
<fabbione> Treenaks: yeah.. i expect a failure configuring X.org
<fabbione> but that's not daniels fault
<fabbione> not this time at least
<fabbione> ;)
<thom> ... yay dell hardware
<Treenaks> fabbione: it's yours?
<daniels> heh :)
<fabbione> Treenaks: more or less... the box simply doesn't have a video card :P
<daniels> you can't ddc probe a serial port
<fabbione> so i can't expect X to autoconfigure properly
<fabbione> daniels: exactly...
<Treenaks> daniels: hey i2c is a serial protocol ;)
<fabbione> hmmm  it failed somewhere installing base...
<Kamion> fabbione: uh ... we haven't actually added sparc to debootstrap yet
* fabbione takes note that cat /var/log/partman on a 9600 serial console is NOT sane
<Kamion> so that's not so surprising :)
<fabbione> right
<daniels> Mithrandir: ping
<fabbione> Kamion: i think it's time to dual bitch elmo ;)
<Kamion> hey, I don't care, I can make debootstrap work regardless of whether it's in the archive or not
<Kamion> somebody just needs to tell me that the archive is sufficiently stable
<daniels> thom: hey dude, the amd64 doesn't happen to have an nvidia card in it, does it?
<fabbione> Kamion: it is stable..
<daniels> thom: (mataro.u.c)
<fabbione> Kamion: i am only keeping up with main right now
<fabbione> Kamion: i have "only" 5 FTBFS and missing ooo
<fabbione> Kamion: but that's more related to ubuntu-desktop task than anything else
<fabbione> Kamion: ooo is missing because i forgot to remove it from the PAS
<fabbione> but i will be build it shortly
<thom> daniels: don't think so
<daniels> thom: can you check? :)
<thom> 0000:01:00.0 VGA compatible controller: ATI Technologies Inc RV280 [Radeon 9200 SE]  (rev 01)
<daniels> ahr, shit
<lamont_r> Kamion: it would be _WAY_COOL_ if debootstrap were enhanced to allow me to specify a sources.list :-)
<fabbione> lamont_r: i fully agree.. the limitation to a single url is overkilling
<fabbione> Kamion: please do in such a way that both ltrace and strace are removed from sparc
<fabbione> Kamion: the latter is a temporary hack. the former doesn't exist for sparc
<Mithrandir> daniels: pong
<ross> jdub: ping?
<Treenaks> welcome to #pingpong
<fabbione> hey elmo
<fabbione> i did fix that Release file problem btw.. thanks anyway
<elmo> k
* fabbione gives elmo a big morning hug
<jdub_> ross: ping
<jdub_> pong
<fabbione> Kamion:
<fabbione> Use of uninitialized value in split at /usr/share/kernel-wedge/commands/gen-control line 36, <KVERS> line 2.
<fabbione> Use of uninitialized value in pattern match (m//) at /usr/share/kernel-wedge/commands/gen-control line 161.
<fabbione> did you notice a bunch of these errors building the kernel?
<daniels> fabbione: afaict they're harmless; i hit them a lot too
<fabbione> i usually hitted the first one
<fabbione> the second one is the first time
<fabbione> that's why i am asking
<Kamion> fabbione: yeah, they're harmless though
<fabbione> Kamion: good..
<_rene_> doko: there?
<Kamion> it would help if I cronned update-germinate, wouldn't it?
<Kamion> fabbione: the latter's fixed upstream
<elmo> ANACRON IS FREAKIN "SPECIAL"
<daniels> nice
<daniels> mataro.ubuntu.com is going down for a few minutes for amd64 l-r-m special love
<fabbione> daniels: eh what?
<daniels> nvidia joy
<fabbione> daniels: and why do you need to use mataro.u.c ?
<daniels> BECAUSE IT'S AN AMD64
<daniels> (this is thom)
<Treenaks> Hot NVidia Love!
<daniels> and no-one in the distro team is stupid enough to have an nvidia card in their amd64s
<fabbione> no really.. i mean.. it's -> NVIDIA COMMERICIAL BINARY UBER CRAP <-
<Treenaks> 
<jdub_> distro team people upstairs please
<fabbione> jdub_: what is going on?
<pasc> elmo_away: ?
<fabbione> jdub_: ???
<daniels> mataro.u.c back up
<fabbione> Kamion: can i kill devfs from the kernel?
<cenerentola> hi there, will ever ubuntu be ported on sparc?
<thom> already done
<Treenaks> 16:32  * fabbione attempts the first hoary installation on sparc
<cenerentola> thx treenaks...
<cenerentola> wow.
<cenerentola> treenaks: 16:32, when
<cenerentola> ?
<Treenaks> cenerentola: 20 hours ago
<cenerentola> here's my baby: http://www.naturetechws.com/Product-888P.htm
<Treenaks> Yikes!
<Treenaks> why did I read that as "Nature Worldwide Technology Crap." ?
<ross> holy crap 3.45kg
<Treenaks> (just like the Marriott hotel around the corner, which I first read as "Marillat")
<cenerentola> and the Can Torrent around mataro'' centre
<Treenaks> cenerentola: Can Torrent, yeah 8)
<cenerentola> don't touch my baby please
<thom> 3.45KG? HOLY FUCKING SHIT
<daniels> OMGWTFONLY630FPS
* daniels returns the card.
<martink> Sparc "PowerBook"?
<fabbione> cenerentola: good luck... with that toy... most of the hw won't probably be supported by the kernel anyway
<cenerentola> ahhh...
<fabbione> Kamion: i figured why ftp still depends on libreadline5
<fabbione> Kamion: both libreadline4 and 5-dev provides libreadline-dev
<cenerentola> fabbione: never ever, or just never, or sometime in a remote future?
<fabbione> and netkit-ftp build-dep libreadline-dev that at that point in time was libreadline5 for me
<Kamion> fabbione: sparc done
<fabbione> cenerentola: no idea.. just for a started pcmcia support isn't compiled on sparc
<Kamion> fabbione: devfs err, hmm, moo
<daniels> ross: it probably needs three-phase to charge, too
<fabbione> Kamion: uh?
<ross> haha
<ross> daniels: to charge? there are batteries which can power that?
<daniels> ross: THE SUN
<thom> the disk is actually a fiber channel raid array you tow behind you on a cart
<daniels> it probably has a 50m^2 solar panel which you need to attach
<ross> rofl
<Kamion> fabbione: since the installer doesn't use it, I guess so
<fabbione> Kamion: ok.. i guess we can wait for that
<Kamion> fabbione: netkit-ftp> yeah, that's the standard problem
<Kamion> fabbione: wait for what? :)
<fabbione> Kamion: to kill devfs
<fabbione> there might be people using it
<fabbione> Kamion: ok.. i am going to tight the build-dep to libreadline4-dev
<Kamion> please
<cenerentola> fabbione: as you have some free time,  could you please explain better what will happen with the sparc port,
<cenerentola> ?
<fabbione> Kamion: netkit-ftp is up
<fabbione> cenerentola: right now we have a almost installable sparc port, but it will take sometime (a bunch of weeks) before the packages will enter the archive for real
<fabbione> in anycase the port is unofficial
<fabbione> and not supported
<bob2> seb128: after resuming from suspend-to-disk, the battery monitor decides I have no battery
<cenerentola> well, if we find someone to help you, will you accept them?
<fabbione> also.. i am doing the port in my spare time.. so that means that it will get the loves i can give it to it
<bob2> seb128: tho /prc/acpi knows I have one
<fabbione> cenerentola: the problem is to find one
<fabbione> cenerentola: but clearly yes.. help is welcome, even if at this point in time is still limited to fix FTBFS
<seb128> bob2, bugzilla that please :)
<cenerentola> ok. it's a deal ;).
<cenerentola> fabbione: FTBS... oops
<cenerentola> ciao a tutti
<daniels> mataro.u.c is going down for a reboot (2.6.9), will be back shortly
<fabbione> stop rebooting that nice toy :P
<daniels> only needed to reboot it twice -- once for the new card, once for 2.6.9
<daniels> after that, it should be fine
<fabbione> until the nv1d14cr4p will crash it
<daniels> thom: ?
<thom> daniels: gimme a second
<doko> _rene_: yes
<sivang> hi all
<mooch> food is waiting, for those of you who want to get some
<sladen> "want" is an interesting point.  The desire to eat, vs. the desire to die.
<daniels> EIGHT HUNDRED EFF PEE ESS
<fabbione> ahaha
<thom> it's mutant tomato, unmulched and seeking revenge
<sladen> wasn't it daniels who said ''glxgears is not a benchmarking tool'' yesterday
<ross> thom: not evil mutant tomato!
<mooch> 700 efe pe ese here
<mooch> rocks
<daniels> sladen: laden with sarcasm
<daniels> sladen: (my current 'benchmarking', not my original 'it's not a benchmark' remarks, because it ISN'T)
<ross> daniels: but it's got a FPS counter
* ross runs
<thom> fglrxgears is cooler
<daniels> GRAH HEISENBUG
<daniels> ross: you have no idea how tempting it is to remove that
<ross> ha
<thom> unless you have a special EVIL_LT_XORG_HACKER environment variable set?
<_rene_> doko: trying to write someting up for OOo on solaris and I wonder whether you can tell gcc which ld to use except on compile time...
<daniels> yeah
<daniels> I_ACCEPT_GLXGEARS_IS_NOT_A_BENCHMARK_AND_I_WILL_NOT_POST_THE_RESULTS_OF_RUNNING_THIS_TO_A_FORUM_OR_IRC_CHANNEL=1 glxgears
<lamont_r> daniels: localized?
<Kinnison> Hi, anyone here got a toshiba laptop who is prepared to test a kernel module patch from me?
<thom> don't trust the bad man! he's an evil evil person and his "patch" will take your laptop to the beach
<Treenaks> Kinnison: I know someone
<Kinnison> thom: sssssh
<Treenaks> Kinnison: what kind of patch is it
<jdub_> BEND OVER BEFORE THE ONE YOU LOVE
* ross wonders what jdub is on
<Kinnison> I need a tester whose toshiba_acpi module says their HCI is \_SB_.VALZ.GHCI
<Treenaks> Kinnison: 1 moment
<Kinnison> Treenaks: it's an acpi patch to punt the toshiba keys through the acpi event layer
<Treenaks> ah
<Treenaks> let me contact the guy
* thom chokes when he sees jdub's response
<jdub_> ross: your mum.
<Treenaks> Kinnison: no, this guy mostly has a broken ACPI table on his toshiba, and no \_SB_.VALZ.GHCI stuff
<ross> ha
<Treenaks> jdub_: you wish :)
<Kinnison> Treenaks: oh well; thanks for asking
<Kinnison> Treenaks: what model does he have?
<Treenaks> uh satellite somethingorother 1GHz-from-before-the-Centrino-days
<Kinnison> oh right
<Treenaks> 6000! that could be it
<Treenaks> yes.. looks like the Satellite Pro 6000
<Kinnison> oh well. thanks
<bob2> seb128: #4694
<seb128> bob2, I've read it, thanks
<daniels> (if printing's broken, come scream at me, because it's my fault)
<fabbione> lamont_r: libgtk2-perl <- any idea why it fails on ia64?
<fabbione> t/GtkComboBox................#     Failed test (t/GtkComboBox.t at line 63)
<fabbione> i don't understand why this test should fail
<Kamion> 64-bit crap probably
<Kamion> I can look at it at some point given a box with the build-deps
* sid77 hi
<fabbione> Kamion: it's a possibility.. but than.. shy did it build on amd64?
<Kamion> #ifdef __x86_64__  /* non-broken code */ ;)
<fabbione> Kamion: it's a perl script :P
<fabbione> well no
<fabbione> the test is in perl
<Kamion> it's a set of bindings
<fabbione> hmmm it builded on debian sparc
<daniels> goddamnit, why is nvidia working now
<fabbione> Kamion: possibly it's an API/ABI change in libgtk2.0
<fabbione> Kamion: everyone that success in builging the package had version 2.4.x
<fabbione> both ia64/sparc64 have 2.5.x
<seb128> gtk is API/ABI compatible
<ross> unless -DGTK_DISABLE_DEPRECATED is on of course
<fabbione> ross: point
* fabbione checks
<doko> _rene_: IIRC compile time only.
<fabbione> tools/genmaps.pl:system 'gcc -DGTK_DISABLE_DEPRECATED -Wall -o foo foo.c `pkg-config gtk+-2.0 --cflags --libs`'
<ross> bzt
<ross> thats a bug
<bob2> hm, suck, my sound driver is throwing out I/O errors
<Kamion> elmo: $ dchroot -c hoary
<Kamion> Executing shell in 'hoary' chroot.
<Kamion> Unknown id: cjwatson
<Treenaks> bob2: your /sound/ driver? that's scary
<_rene_> doko: hmm, thanks
<daniels> Kamion: any sanity tests I could sensibly run on nic-restricted-modules other than 'output of dpkg-deb -c looks right'?
<elmo> Kamion: meh
<elmo> Kamion: fixed
<bob2> Treenaks: yeah, and unloading and reloading doesn't help
<Treenaks> bob2: use less water :P
<fabbione> Kamion: seb128 is working on the libgtk2-perl thingy
<fabbione> it builded for a mistake in the first place ;)
<seb128> ah ah
<Kamion> fabbione: oh, ok
<Kamion> daniels: where are you? I'll come and have a look
<Kamion> 13:10 < CIA-8> tbm * r1999 utils/initrd-tools/ (debian/changelog mkinitrd):
<Kamion> 13:10 < CIA-8> Add support for encrypted root filesystems using dm-crypt and cryptsetup.
<thom> Kamion: d-i needs to run udevstart, otherwise you don't get hda on scott's laptop
<Kamion> 13:10 < CIA-8> Patch provided by Wesley W. Terpstra, with modifications and testing by
<Kamion> 13:10 < CIA-8> Loic Minier and me (Closes: #247054).
<Kamion> ooh
<Kamion> thom: d-i so does already run udevstart
<thom> Kamion: and udevstart throws a slew of sed errors
<Kamion> unless it's moved from /sbin
<daniels> Kamion: currently in the hack room; it was bitching because modules.dep wasn't there, so i threw it in and am respinning now
<Kamion> thom: specifically in d-i?
<sivang> does anybody know why testing certficiate doesn't work? Is there anything I need to do besides importing the certificate into firefox?
<daniels> has anyone got a good lib32 testcase for amd64 that uses GL?
<lamont_r> fabbione: test failrues
<fabbione> lamont_r: nm.. we already tracked down the problem
<Kamion> daniels: glxgears!
* Kamion runs away
<lamont_r> fabbione: and fixed it???
<fabbione> lamont_r: seb is on it
<fabbione> it is prefectly reproducible (see the scroll back)
<daniels> Kamion: it's native, sorry :P
<Treenaks> daniels: doom 3
<daniels> Treenaks: ... anything I could install on our router to test with
<Treenaks> daniels: some lib32-compiled version of tuxracer?
* Kamion rebuilds cdebconf WITH THE RIGHT GTK LIBRARIES THIS TIME
* Treenaks hands Kamion the Auto-Lart
<Kamion> no wonder d-i/gtk wouldn't start up; libgtk-x11 dinnae work so well
<daniels> Kamion: goddamnit, dude
<daniels> Kamion: i almost tangoed my monitor in the launchpad meeting
<elmo> I think we should s/tango/thom/ in memory of the Argentinian  incident
<daniels> heh :)
<daniels> 'i almost rentboyed my laptop'
<fabbione> guys is there any c++ expert around that can help me a few minutes?
<fabbione> argh never mind
* sid77 mimes a "spaghetti western" dusty ball crossing the channel
<daniels> fabbione: hm, sup?
<fabbione> daniels: 3838
<fabbione> the problem isn't c++ in wvstreams
<fabbione> it's openssl that broke
<fabbione> Kamion: it might be wise to kick both the wvstreams and openssl maintainers in Debian
<fabbione> Kamion: openssl hasn't been fixed in more than a month
<fabbione> but clearly.. it doesn't have a bug
<fabbione> "        was totally broken (it patched itself)"
<fabbione> pitti: gotta love ya :-)
<pitti> fabbione: I didn't break it :-)
<zul> fabbione: how is the sparc stuff coming?
<pitti> fabbione: the nice thing was that it patched the patch instead of patching the appropriate files
<daniels> fabbione: ah, cool
<fabbione> zul: pretty good
<fabbione> stay tuned
<fabbione> pitti: ehehe
* sivang be right back, switching machines
<jdub> Kamion: http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=130547
<jdub> seb128: ping
<seb128> jdub, pong
<jdub> seb128: checked vuntz's new patch?
<seb128> talking with him on jabber right now
<jdub> cool
<pitti> haggai: here?
<Keybuk> scott    26889  0.1  1.9  18956  9552 ?        D    15:30   0:00 xscreensaver-demo
<Keybuk> ... what's wrong with this picture? :o)
<Kinnison> That reminds me
<Kinnison> I need to make sure ktoshkeyd uses TASK_INTERRUPTIBLE
<daniels> daniel@mataro:~/doom3 $ sudo ./doom3-linux-1.1.1286-demo.x86.run
<daniels> Verifying archive integrity...Error in MD5 checksums: 0f31c705ff44388b7de1b0568c2b99a5 is different from 319c7d28bb6a3333c4b74eaa9bfd6bc9
<daniels> OH WHAT
<daniels> Mithrandir: ping
<Kinnison> nice clean clothes?
<daniels> elmo: could you please install the most recent kernel-wedge on davis and concordia?
<daniels> mataro.u.c going down for one last reboot
<`anthony> la la la la la la la firewalls suck la la la I want the internet back la la la la la
<Treenaks> `anthony: uh.. you have internet
<Mithrandir> daniels: pong
<`anthony> Treenaks: No. I have a butchered internet with a network device damaging my packets.
<Treenaks> `anthony: well, blame thom
<thom> no, no
<thom> blame spain
<thom> it's like blame canada with more phlegm
<Treenaks> I had a nice Telefonica ADSL connection at gate M3 on the Barcelona airport ;)
<Treenaks> Intel/Telefonica/HP promo stand with insecure AP & uncapped DSL
<lamont_r> daniels: hurry up even
<Keybuk> Kamion: you might want to stick "deb " & "deb-src " on the front of the last two lines of /etc/apt/sources.list :p
<Kamion> meh what?
<Keybuk> the universe ones are kinda missing then :p
<Kamion> Keybuk: d'oh!
<Kamion> fixed locally
<Kamion> need to shut down now until I can find my power adaptor or a UK socket
<daniels> lamont_r: it's back
<daniels> Mithrandir: ah.  do you want to test lib32 stuff? :)
<lamont_r> daniels: cool
<Keybuk> seb128: gnome-panel attacked Mark's laptop
<seb128> in which way ?
<jdub> it's a bit b0rk atm
<jdub> vuntz sent a new patch
<jdub> trying it out atm
<seb128> jdub, you are doing a new package too ? 
<seb128> BONG
<jdub> no, just doing a quick hack to try
<jdub> i tohught you were doing the package :)
<seb128> it's installed on my box
<seb128> just playing with it before uploading
<jdub> ahr
* jdub kills build
<fabbione> lamont_r: linux-s 2.6.9 for i386 is dead?
<lamont_r> dunno
<Mithrandir> daniels: in a couple of hours, sure.
<fabbione> it's more than 8 hours that has been uploaded...
<fabbione> i wonder if it is stocked somewhere
<lamont_r> checking
<fabbione> thanks
<daniels> Mithrandir: cool, thanks
<`anthony> woo! look at all the upnp-aware devices on the conference network...
<fabbione> lamont_r: did you find my i386 kernel?
<Kamion> fabbione: have you checked down the back of the sofa?
<fabbione> Kamion: ahahahah
<daniels> Mithrandir: well, l-r-m -9 (0ubuntu8 for nvidia-glx) should do lib32 sanely
<daniels> Mithrandir: just got uploaded now
<fabbione> Mithrandir: did you notice that ooo is ftbfs?
<Simira> Mithrandir went swimming, he's back within a couple of hours
<fabbione> Simira: thanks.. we know he reads the scrollback ;)
<Simira> yup
<Kamion> daniels: seeded
<Kinnison> hey Simira 
<Kamion> mdz: seeded dmsetup-udeb (I'd thought you were doing it, apparently you thought I was doing it)
<Simira> hi Kinnison :) Still enjoying Mataro?
<Kinnison> Oh yes
<lamont_r> fabbione: found and uploaded.
<daniels> Kamion: cheers
<fabbione> lamont_r: cheers.. what went wrong?
<koke> window
<koke> ops, sorry
<lamont_r> it was a cooperative effort
<fabbione> hmmmm
<fabbione> oh well...
<fabbione> seb128:
<fabbione> checking for XineramaQueryExtension in -lXinerama_pic... no
<fabbione> checking for Xinerama support on XFree86... no
<fabbione> checking if <X11/extensions/XIproto.h> is needed for xReply... no
<fabbione> this is building gtk+2.0_2.5.6-0ubuntu3
<fabbione> perhaps we should change that to recognize the new shared xinerama lib?
<mdz> Kamion: thanks
<trulux> lamont_r, is doko over there? i have uploaded and updated the hardened debian repository
<lamont_r> trulux: he's not physically present in the room where I am
<seb128> fabbione, yeah
<mdz> elmo: python2.4 is expected to be pulled into main shortly, if it isn't already
<trulux> lamont_r, i mean, is he online/available for talk?
<trulux> doko, ping?
<smurfix_> doko: ?
<doko> smurfix_; hmm, used the wron nick ...
<trulux> doko, hey
<trulux> doko, did you managed my patches? i have a new revision of the PIE ones
<trulux> for all archs
<trulux> the SSP one is still not working on upgrowing stack archs
<pitti> trulux: what is a "stack arch"?
<sjoerd> pitti: archs where your stack goes upward instead of downward 
<pitti> ah
<pitti> trulux: I thought SSP would place canaries on both ends of a buffer?
<pitti> trulux: at least that would make sense...
<daniels> good god
<daniels> CXXFLAGS="-g0 -DTT_CONFIG_OPTION_BYTECODE_INTERPRETER -pipe -O3 -march=pentium4 -fweb -funswitch-loops -funroll-all-loops -funit-at-a-time -fsched2-use-traces -fsched2-use-superblocks -fsched-stalled-insns=12 -frename-registers -fprefetch-loop-arrays -fpeel-loops -fomit-frame-pointer -fmerge-all-constants -finline-limit=32768 -finline-functions -ffunction-sections -ffast-math -fdata-sections -fbranch-target-load-optimize2 -fvisibility-inlines
<trulux> pitti, i've talked to Etoh, it's developer, and dunno, he is putting effort in the coming 4.0 release
<trulux> (for gcc4)
<trulux> but i think people runnning hppa for example is not our first goal
<trulux> as we don't have access to such hardware
<trulux> other archs are already supported
<pitti> trulux: cool, that means that there is a chance of supporting SSP in gcc 4?
<trulux> sure
<trulux> Etoh asked about some info on gcc3 to 4 changes, i've just talked to him about them and he said that it's now WPI
<trulux> hopefully in some months we will have it, dunno
<fabbione> mdz: do you want to hand me the cloop stuff?
<fabbione> mdz: i need to do another upload pretty soon
<lamont_r> azeem: you around?
<azeem> yes
<usual> hello lamont_r 
<lamont_r> usual: hi
<fabbione> lamont_r: if you want to debug that problem with the buildd that didn't uplaod the kernel this is about the right tim
<fabbione> lamont_r: -7 is up
<fabbione> lamont_r: kthxbye
<fabbione> ;)
<lamont_r> fabbione: already fixed and tested
<fabbione> cool
<lamont_r> -7 fixes ppc? :-)
<azeem> lamont_r: anything up in particular, or are you just happy that I'm around? =)
<lamont_r> wondering if you know why the hurd patch changed the x86 detection to use i.86.* instead of i.86
<lamont_r> (util-linux)
<azeem> not off-hand
<azeem> is it in the package already or in some bug #?
<sladen> doko: would you be able to   sudo apt-get install dmidecode && sudo dmidecode | mail -s 'Foreign BIOS' ubuntu@paul.sladen.org ?
<trulux> pitti, hey
<pitti> hi trulux 
<trulux> pitti, i have uploaded the hardened toolchain packages to a srage-ready rep
<pitti> trulux: cool
<trulux> let me rebuild the Packages.gz and test the rep
<pitti> trulux: I would really like to eventually see that in Debian and Ubuntu
<pitti> trulux: however, there were some concerns about upstream adoption and cooperation
<pitti> trulux: how well is SSP supported by IBM?
<tseng> pitti: not very
<trulux> hey tseng
<tseng> hi
<trulux> tseng, just as all the rest of research projects
<fabbione> mako: do you have the key of the room?
<doko> sladen: not on my laptop. I know this feature from some Siemens-Fujitsu desktops. I'll try to get access to one when I return.
<sladen> groovy
<tseng> pitti: there is limited response to bugs against SSP
<pitti> tseng: that's why we are hesitant with using it
<tseng> and then there is the issue of where to put the __guard symbols
<trulux> tseng, libssp
<tseng> yes maybe
<trulux> tseng, it's the best way
<tseng> do you have pappy's paper on why its in glibc?
<tseng> ill try and dig it out of cvs.
<trulux> tseng, yes
<trulux> pappy and me are going to work together on some things
<trulux> and we think libssp is the best way to handle the __guard symbols
<tseng> ok
<tseng> what was the name of that gcc4 thing that redhat is looking at
<trulux> tseng, mudflap
<trulux> it's not going to be the thing it was supposed to
<trulux> that's the reason because gcc4 will get a ready ssp version
<trulux> (this comes from Etoh)
<trulux> doko, there?
<trulux> pitti, it would be great to work together on some things, i mean Ubuntu and debhard devs, but we need some infrastructure
<trulux> the problem is fun, we don't have a rsync server nor a good scm
<pitti> trulux: and we need some people who actually know what they are doing :-)
<trulux> pitti, what do you mean with that?
<jdub> lamont_r: network says NO
<pitti> trulux: I mean, if you want to help us bringing gcc-ssp support to Ubuntu, that'd be great
<trulux> pitti, yeah ;-)
<trulux> hardened debian exists for that
<trulux> it's not fork of Debian like Adamantix <- i should register this as trademark :D
<tseng> trulux: it might be easier for them if h-deb builds from hoary
<trulux> tseng, i can try to chroot a hoary installation
<trulux> i'm running warty
<tseng> ya debbootstrap it
<trulux> kay
<tseng> grab that latest gcc source, and try to work in your patches
<tseng> you are self hosting now?
<trulux> what repos to use? same as warty ones but s/warty/hoary/ right?
<trulux> tseng, yes
<trulux> mcp is hosting the wiki and the website on a hardened server
<tseng> yes @ s/w/h/g
<tseng> mcp is in?
<trulux> yes
<tseng> interesting.
<trulux> heh
<tseng> yeah.. if you get your patches working against hoary gcc sources
<tseng> and can provide a nice diff i think that'll put us well on the way
<trulux> which gcc is using hoary?
<trulux> ok
<tseng> 3.3.5
<tseng> is default
<lamont_r> jdub: firewall rules fixed
<trulux> tseng, then great
<tseng> good
<tseng> trulux: im off for home, hopefully my dsl is fixed
<tseng> trulux: otherwise ill bbiaf days
<trulux> ok
<lamont_r> azeem: I good and truly broke the hurd patch, I think...  Probably some time ago...  just switched util-linux over to using dpatch, and left what's left of the hurd patch as unapplied magic for some caring individual to fix and mail me...
* lamont_r must head out for a while
<zul> tseng: i have some debs with selinux already im just working on sysvinit at the moment
<trulux> zul, working with selinux stuff?
<zul> trulux: a bit..
<zul> when i have time to
<sladen> somebody needs to correct the imbalance on the current slashdot article about boot optimisation
<sladen> http://www.planetarytramp.net/bootchart/bootchart-20041210-1934.png
<trulux> zul, how is it going?
<zul> trulux: its ok..just trying to fix some patches but its going slowly
<trulux> is it going to be desktop friendly?
<trulux> i mean, no conflicts with gnome and so on
<zul> i hope so :)
<zul> thats the goal eventually
<trulux> zul, great
<trulux> i wa splanning to do that, do you know rjc?
<zul> nope
<trulux> then you should get in contact with him, he has done a lot of work with selinux-debian
<trulux> join #selinux
<zul> okie dokie
<zul> :)
<trulux> ;D
<shaya> anyone have an idea why my delete key acts as backspace in hoary's emacs?
<shaya> works fine in vi for instance
<shaya> no one home?
<azeem> shaya: try #ubuntu
<zul> or use vim
<sladen> shaya: somebody else mentioned it.  Can you find the bug on the bugzilla and add your experience too
<Mithrandir> daniels: ack, I'll replace my graphics card soon.
<Mithrandir> fabbione: yes.
* sivang is rebooting be back in a sec.
<stratus> anyone cares about this thread? http://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-devel-list/2004-November/msg00561.html
<thully> Hey - has anyone had trouble w/ mailing list digests
<thully> My messages change to an unreadable text color about 1/3 into the message
<sladen> thully: duff HTML in one of the messages?
<thully> maybe - I think it is the "replay" color
<thully> replay=reply
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-devel:linux_mafia] : Ubuntu development -- ARE WE NEARLY THERE YET? -- general discussion and support on #ubuntu | Want to help Hoary? see https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/HoaryGoals | Mataro server is mataro.ubuntu.com - local mirror, smtp smarthost, squid on 3128
<linux_mafia> oops
<linux_mafia> jesus
<thully> Could something be done serverside to strip all such html from messages?
<linux_mafia> who would i ask/petition to include an option in the kernel images, at least in hoary anyway?
<usual> I'm really starting to like Jazz
* lamont_r grumbles at the wireless
<lamont_r> doko: sup?
#ubuntu-devel 2005-12-26
<Pygi> welcome thierry
<thierry> Pygi: thanks
<mdke> Pygi, you're the welcome bot?
<mdke> :)
<Pygi> mdke: yes, I am the welcome bot ;)
<ptlo> oh, he does that on every channel? :))
<Pygi> mdke: soon I'll evolve to the "How may we be of service?" bot ;)
<Kamion> not to be a killjoy, but I think I'd prefer useful scrollback in #ubuntu-devel to a welcome-bot. :)
<Pygi> Kamion: why? what? when? what? heh! ;)
<ptlo> Kamion: don't request that, he'll comply with pasting XYZ previous lines along *with* the welcome message ;-)
* Pygi shoots down ptlo
<Pygi> I am stoping to say welcome to anyone ;) now you are on your own ;)
<ptlo> i feel so alone...:)
<cron0> Hi
<ptlo> welcome cron0!
<cron0> Thanks! :)
<ptlo> . o o (oh no...i've succumbed to the pyginess syndrome! :)
* Pygi wonders how ptlo didn't got down when I shot him.....
* ptlo reminds himself to be polite and politely shuts up
* Pygi shots once again...
<daniels> (guys, useful scrollback ...)
* Pygi thinks this is a lot of offtopic
<aurynn_u> Just wanting to say good job on ubuntu, it's actually starting to get reasonable
<Riddell> quite the complement
<cron0> I came here wondering if I were the only one having dependency issues with libdbus at this moment?
<Riddell> cron0: there's been a new dbus, rebuilding is happening now
<Riddell> rebuilding of dependencies that is
<infinity> cron0 : No, massive transition, this would be a better question for #ubuntu-users
<Riddell> there's a #ubuntu-users?
<aurynn_u> Riddell, from me, more than you know.
<aurynn_u> given I'm comparing directly to OSX
<cron0> Cool, I was just wondering :)
<cron0> Are there any dev sites/blogs where huge transitions like this are posted?
<Riddell> cron0: usually ubuntu-devel-announce would be it, I can't remember seeing this transition on it though
<sistpoty> ping BenC
<cron0> ok!
<BenC> sistopy: pong
<BenC> infinity: much better comment, I knew it was you that time without looking at the name :)
<sistpoty> BenC: /me reported #20910
<BenC> sistopy: hey
<sistpoty> BenC: I doubt it's an hardware issue
<BenC> sistopy: come over to #ubuntu-kernel if you don't mind
<sistpoty> BenC: sure
* Kamion goes on holiday. woohoo
<daniels> Kamion: \o/
<ogra> Kamion, have fun and relax :)
<Kamion> see you at the distro team meeting on Thursday, and then in 2006; mail me if there are urgent decisions to make
<daniels> echo "lets use reiser4 4 dapper!!!!! yay or nay pls" | mail cjwatson@ubuntu.com
<ogra> lool
<ogra> that wont work, we dont install an MTA !!!!
<aigarius> LOL
<seth_k|lappy> Ubuntu is under attack!
<ogra> actually it was a very helpful thread hat pointed out a missing dependency in popcon :)
<infinity> Riddell : Err, I meant #ubuntu, obviously.  I get list/channel mappings confused when I've been awake all night.
<Riddell> mdke: there's a parser error on the ubuntu-docs
<Riddell> two or three actually
<ptlo> what's the package containing the data for the panel menus? (Applications/Places/System) ? i'm trying to translate it, but i don't know where to look (it isn't in the gnome panel).
<ptlo> (if i'm offtopic, sorry:)
<tseng> ptlo: how about right clicking the panel and saying "Translate this app"?
<tseng> it should take you to the right place in rosetta
<tseng> or, it would if firefox worked as expected
<ptlo> tseng: it's not part of the gnome panel, we've translated that
<ptlo> tseng: i mean the items *under* the Applications menu (Accessories, Games, ... <- the section names)
<tseng> im guessing you mean either gnome-panel-data or gnome-menus
<ptlo> oh! thanks
<tseng> nps
<ptlo> we don't have those enabled in rosetta so i missed them
<ptlo> (we == hr lang team)
<Riddell> infinity: http://kubuntu.org/~jr/tmp/kubuntu-docs.diff http://kubuntu.org/~jr/tmp/ubuntu-docs.diff
<jdub> whoa
<jdub> everything depending on d-bus
<jdub> scary
<tseng> jdub: there is no cabal
<ogra> hey its a development release, you know :P
* ogra wonders if dbus 1.0 will be released in time, so we have to do it again :)
<mdke> Riddell, is that a diff on my package? looks good
<tseng> its not that bad per maintainer
<daniels> i should bump the soversion on libx11 for shits and giggles
<Riddell> mdke: could you test it please
<mdke> Riddell, tomorrow?
<ogra> Riddell, looks good to me too ...
<mdke> Riddell, what are the faqguide.fr and faqguide.it changes?
<ogra> i'll adopt it for edubuntu if i dont find heavy objections in my baclog tomorrow
<mdke> oh nice
<mdke> Riddell, you rock, even correcting those
<ogra> scottish politeness :)
<infinity> Riddell : Where's the original that the ubuntu diff is based on?
<mdke> infinity, http://doc.ubuntu.com/debs/breezy-updates
<infinity> mdke : danke.
<mdke> bitte
<Riddell> mdke: to make it validate
<mdke> Riddell, yeah, i saw the change eventually, you are a perfectionist :)
<mdke> good stuff
<mdke> Riddell, what the hell, i'll test it now. where is the pkg?
<mdke> or do i have to build it?
<Riddell> mdke: building it would be best
<mdke> def. tomorrow then, my internet is a bit slow and I've mislaid my local copy
<mdke> and I'll have to learn how to use patch too
<ogra> Riddell, shouldnt kubuntu have a higher priority ? 
<ogra> you set it to 40 too ...
<Riddell> ogra: why?
<ogra> because you make sure it gets preferred as alternative in automatic mode
<infinity> To be fair, no one really knows what screen you'd prefer to see if you have ubuntu-desktop, kubuntu-desktop, and edubuntu-desktop installed at the same time.
<ogra> and i think ubuntu-docs needs an --auto in its postinstall, but infinity might correct me here
<infinity> And, no, maintainer scripts should NEVER call --auto.  Ever.
<ogra> i know that i want to see edubuntu in any case 
<infinity> That overrides the local admin's decision.
<ogra> ok
<infinity> Anyhow, I'll peruse these diffs later today, and either upload them as-is, or fix them and upload them, depending on what's required.
<infinity> Riddell : Thanks for doing the grunt work.
<xhaker> got a new one for you.. gutenprint imho should be updated (the 5.0.0rc5 is already on debian unstable) this should add support for many more printers, and it doesn't feature on PrintingRoadmap spec th
<mdke> Riddell, i built it and installed it on my ubuntu breezy, but I have no index.html in the relevant file, only firefox-index.html
<Riddell> mdke: /etc/alternatives/firefox-index ?
<mdke> Riddell, no such file
<Riddell> hmm, not good
<mdke> assuming i built it right
<mdke> think so
<infinity> mdke : Do you have either kubuntu-docs or edubuntu-docs installed as well?
<mdke> infinity, no
<infinity> dpkg -S /usr/share/ubuntu-artwork/home/index.html
<mdke> it's not there...
<mdke> dpkg can't see it
<infinity> Right, and it shouldn't be.
<mdke> well how can my browser display it?
<infinity> update-alternatives --display firefox-homepage
<mdke> No alternatives for firefox-homepage.
<mdke> the file shouldn't be there?
<ogra> it should be a link to /etc/alternatives/firefox-homepage
<infinity> Well, the file should be a symlink owned by the alternatives system.
<infinity> So, Riddell broke something, perhaps. :)
<mdke> there is nothing in either of those :)
<infinity> I'll look at it later on today, unless you guys feel like fixing it.
<mdke> this will work for epiphany too right?
<ogra> i dont see an error in the code ...
<mdke> silly question, but all this talk of ff makes me nervous
<jdub> this seems like a lot of work to go to when we're going to switch to start.ubuntu.com anyway...
<ogra> +    update-alternatives \
<ogra> +      --install /usr/share/ubuntu-artwork/home/index.html \
<ogra> +      firefox-homepage /usr/share/ubuntu-artwork/home/firefox-index.html 40
<mdke> jdub, it is for breezy
<ogra> looks totally ok
<mdke> ogra, maybe I built the package wrong
<jdub> breezy? okay - i don't want to know.
<mdke> jdub, so is somebody going to approve and implement start.ubuntu.com?
<ogra> does /usr/share/ubuntu-artwork/home/firefox-index.html exist ?
<mdke> ogra, yes
<jdub> mdke: yeah
<ogra> hmm, and /etc/alternatives/firefox-homepage doesnt point to it ? 
<mdke> jdub, ah, who?
<mdke> ogra, there isn't one of those
<jdub> mdke: moi
<ogra> very strange
<mdke> jdub, aha
* mdke doesn't like that spec :)
<jdub> neither do i
<ogra> hmm, btw, how do we handle translations of this page with the alternatives system ? 
<jdub> so i'm going to use the ancient, time-tested technique of "approval by reauthoring"
<mdke> jdub, yeah, i was gonna say, bear translation in mind
<jdub> already on the cards
<mdke> ogra, Riddell, i think I probably applied the patch wrongly, nm I'll try again tomorrow
<ogra> oki
<mdke> jdub, cool. will it still be an online page?
* mdke crosses fingers for an offline one
<jdub> ogra: dude, if this is seriously a change in breezy, trying to think about translations and alternatives and stuff like that is insane
<jdub> mdke: absolutely - start.ubuntu.com
<mdke> :(
<jdub> offline does not make sense
<ogra> jdub, we'll carry it over to dapper
<mdke> ogra, there won't be translations of the homepage in breezy
<jdub> ogra: dapper will use start.ubuntu.com
<mdke> absolutely not
<ogra> jdub, for edu/kubuntu ? 
<jdub> ogra: sure
<ogra> or any upcoming derivative ? 
<ogra> xubuntu ... jdubuntu 
<jdub> if we can provide a simple way of changing the default url as a branding thing, sure
<ogra> yup
<jdub> or if they don't care that it's 'ubuntu'
<jdub> they don't have to worry
<jdub> honestly - edubuntu needing a different start page? might be fun down the track, but not important for dapper.
<mdke> it has one now
<mdke> hence the strife :)
<jdub> a different start.ubuntu.com that doesn't completely different things than the current abomination
<infinity> jdub : start.ubuntu.com will get diabled in a hurry by a lot of people if we don't have a clever offline fallback.
<ogra> jdub, we have our featurelist there ... and since we run a bunch of local servers i want to put links there to reach them
<jdub> which has to be branded
<jdub> due to said abomination
<mdke> infinity, +10
<mdke> epiphany opens the home page in all new tabs... on a modem, that will be IRRITATING
<jdub> infinity: how many web browsers ship with offline home pages? how many people want to know that they're online by launching their web browser?
<mdke> jdub, it's not so much being offline, but being online, slowly
<infinity> jdub : How many OS vendors have to re-implement the same mistakes before we decide not to?
<mjg59> NetworkMagic will tell Firefox that it's offline and so it'll do something sensible
<mjg59> Right?
<infinity> jdub : I switch my homepage to about:blank most places, not because I'm a fascist, but because online default homepages are irritatingly slow and/or broken.
<jdub> infinity: dude. i thought it was right when i suggested it pre-warty. i realise now that i was fundamentally wrong.
* mdke nods
<tseng> "google.com"
<mdke> jdub, how about we make a nicer smaller homepage along the lines of the spec, but make it offline?
<mjg59> jdub: Browsers are entirely sensible applications to run offline. Having an error appear when an offline user opens it is so insanely painful that I'd rather be nailed to a tree
<jdub> mdke: it's not going to be offline.
<jdub> mjg59: that's what i thought too. turns out it's useful knowledge, precisely what the user is looking for.
<mdke> heh
<mjg59> jdub: A user who wants to view an offline page is not looking for an error box. They already know they're offline.
<mdke> jdub, just a suggestion
<jdub> "ah, the web! i am online." vs. "ah, error! i see i am not online."
<mjg59> jdub: If the use case is "User wants to know if they're online or not", then we should figure out a way to provide that rather than trying to overload another piece of functionality
<infinity> jdub : People who've been trained by IE's default page, perhaps.  I realise we walk a fine line between "pander to Windows users" and "DTRT for completely new computer users"... I really don't know which direction to go sometimes.
<mjg59> jdub: Remember that a large proportion of our users are on dialup
<mdke> mjg59, +1. It's not about being online or not, it's about having a fast browsing experience
<mjg59> The default case is that they're offline
<mjg59> Most of the time, they'll know that they're offline
<jdub> mjg59: i'm not convinced that a dancing bear with nipple tassles is going to stop users from doing this very practical, coherent test.
<infinity> mjg59 : I concede jdub's point that every time a Windows user wants to see if "The Internet is working", they fire up a web browser and wait for it to do something.
<mjg59> jdub: But this practical, coherent test results in other practical, coherent use cases generating error messages
<jdub> mdke: that's so much tosh
<Burglaptop> mjg59: not neccessarily to the knowledge of being online or not. I frequently do it
<mdke> jdub, i'm biased because I use epiphany on a relatively low speed connection, and I don't like blank homepages, but I still think it's not "tosh"
<mdke> especially since i'm not the only one making the point
<infinity> jdub : If start.ubuntu.com is really, really slim, and really, really low latency, then the speed argument's not valid.  But our current website certain doesn't fit that bill.
<jdub> mjg59: nono, this is very interesting stuff - they *think* they might be online, because the magic of networking is so foreign to them that a practical test wins hands down.
<mdke> the network applet should tell them if they are online or not
<mjg59> jdub: That implies that we're doing something fundamentally wrong with networking
<mjg59> (Which I could well believe)
<jdub> infinity: our current website will *not* be start.ubuntu.com
<jdub> mjg59: the world is, not us
<jdub> mdke: and they still won't believe it
<mjg59> Now, if you were suggesting that any application that accesses the network should generate a "You're not online. Would you like to be online?" message when started, then I'd agree
<infinity> jdub : I didn't imply that it would be.  Just that we're not infamous for web pages that can get a 1-2 second round-trip on dialup.
<jdub> and rightly so
<Burglaptop> mjg59: the two can coexist
<jdub> there will be instances where network-manager thinks it's online, but it's not
<mjg59> But that's an entirely different argument to "Should I get error messages on Firefox startup"
<mjg59> And, at the moment, starting Firefox when you don't have an internet connection will result in something mad like "No route to host" or "connection refused"
<mjg59> That's not informative. It's not telling the user anything they want to know
<jdub> we can eventually fix the 'no network at all' stuff
<Burglaptop> mjg59: that is a FF bug, not a reason to not use start.ubuntu.com
<mjg59> They're getting an error, when it could be that they know they can't acces a website
<mjg59> Burglaptop: No, there's no way for firefox to know
<jdub> we can't fix the 'can i access the internet' stuff
<daniels> have a big banner up the top of the screen
<daniels> NO YOU ARE NOT ON THE INTERWEB
<floam> so apt is wanting to get rid of hal and dbus, I assume something is broke
<mjg59> A standard userspace application can't tell the difference between being unable to access a website because you have no link to any of the internet, or being unable to access a website because our server has fallen over
<mjg59> It'll just get "No route to host" in both cases
<daniels> floam: welcome to dapper
<Burglaptop> floam: wait
<floam> daniels: I'm not perturbed
<mdke> lol @daniels and the interweb
<floam> I'm just making sure they didn't get renamed or something
<jdub> floam: upgrade, don't dist-upgrade
<ogra> floam, its all intentional
<Burglaptop> floam: dbus is going through a transition
<mjg59> jdub: So the case you're talking about isn't actually diagnostic. All it says is that packets can't reach start.ubuntu.com. That might be because you're offline, or it might be because your ISP has dropped chunks of the world, or it might be because our ISP has fucked up.
<floam> jbailey: I didn't dist upgrade
<floam> err
<floam> jdub: 
<daniels> i didn't even know about that one, and I'm allegedly the dbus maintainer.  go figure.
<floam> well, I did once, but that's normla.
<mjg59> jdub: And people don't want to know whether they can reach start.ubuntu.com. They want to know whether they're ON TEH INTARWEB
<Burglaptop> mjg59: how does that conflict with s.u.c?
<jdub> mjg59: my mum doesn't know that. but she knows that by trying things in her browser, she'll *practically* know if she's on the internet. a useful, network start page is the first step.
<mjg59> jdub: If you rephrase this as "Setting firefox to have an online start page is by and large good enough given the technology we currently have", then I'll agree
<mjg59> But the correct answer isn't to attempt to diagnose whether you're online or not by testing whether you can get an http connection to a specific website
<mjg59> We can be much smarter than that, and we can do so in a way that isn't firefox specific
* mdke still thinks the network applet should do it
<jdub> mjg59: my mum doesn't think about it in those terms, and doesn't care.
<jdub> mdke: it can't.
<mdke> *should*
<jdub> *can't*
<jdub> do you want to play a game?
<Burglaptop> mdke: nothing beats opening your browser and discovering that fact for yourself, little icon or no
<mjg59> jdub: If Firefox gives your mum (YOUR MUM) an error that's identical in the case where (1) you can't access the internet, and (2) you can't access s.u.c, how is that actually diagnostic of whether she's on the internet
<mdke> Burglaptop, ok, well opening your browser and clicking on a weblink would do the trick too
<jdub> the network applet *can't* give you a *practical* understanding of whether you can access the internet and do what you want to do or not
<daniels> neither can going to s.u.c
<mjg59> Unless we're talking about multihoming s.u.c
<daniels> but both can give you a decent idea
<Burglaptop> mdke: why force them to do something more, why not just ry?
<Amaranth> what is the s?
<mdke> Burglaptop, because there are good reasons not to, slow speed of loading
<Burglaptop> Amaranth: start
<mjg59> Burglaptop: If I want to read a local html page, why should I get an error message first?
<Amaranth> ah
<mdke> Amaranth, BrowserDefaults
<jdub> mjg59: she'll try something else, or get on with her life. it's a good start. n-m knowing if it has link/ip/etc isn't a good *practical* start.
<mjg59> jdub: link/ip isn't a good start. Default gateway is.
<jdub> mjg59: not practically.
<Burglaptop> mjg59: why do you want to local page? because you want no page or becuase you want the offline page?
<mjg59> Burglaptop: Because I'm writing a website locally?
<nictuku> hi. Is there any documentation or reference for python-apt, besides the docstrings?
<daniels> link + ip + default gw + ability to, say, resolve www.google.com
<Amaranth> oh yeah, has anyone managed to get dapper to boot/install on a ppc?
<Burglaptop> mjg59: then you doulbe click to open it through nautilus
<mjg59> jdub: DNS is a significantly better test of that
<ogra> Amaranth, i managed to run flight 2 live on ppc
<Amaranth> hrm
<mjg59> Burglaptop: If that was the general use case, we wouldn't have an open option in the file menu
<jdub> mjg59: when you have some spare time to do a basic network training course with my mum, let me know.
<ogra> Amaranth, but it boos very sloooooooow
<ogra> *boots
<Amaranth> i've got flight 2 live here, it gives an error about not being able to access some pci stuff (for usplash, i guess) then just sits
<mjg59> jdub: Christ. Your mum doesn't need to know any of that.
<mdke> isn't jdub's mum a geek?
<mjg59> jdub: Our job is to provide an OS that tells your mum "Your internet isn't working"
<ogra> Amaranth, give it time
<Amaranth> i got a similar error running it in vmware but usplash still worked and things still booted
<Amaranth> ogra: i'm stuck on OS X :P
<jdub> mjg59: so in the mean time, she'll try and load a web page. :-)
<ogra> Amaranth, how long did you wait ? 
<mjg59> jdub: And that's something that should be entirely independent of Firefox. That's something that we should be implementing in all our networked apps.
<mjg59> jdub: Or, more sensibly, it's something that should be monitored centrally
<Burglaptop> mjg59: that is a good thing but most users will still open their webbrowser
<Amaranth> ogra: oh, i counted to 20, went to the bathroom, then restarted
<Amaranth> ogra: so probably about 90 seconds
<Burglaptop> mjg59: a little icon the notication tray or a popup is good thing as well, but doesn't preclude have start.u.c
<Amaranth> and the CD wasn't being read at all
<ogra> Amaranth, give it more time :) 
<jdub> i don't disagree. but that still won't stop users trying a totally sensible and practical way to determine if the computer/network/magic is lying or not. :-)
<mjg59> jdub: Again, I'm willing to accept that this is the best we can do right now
<mjg59> jdub: But would you please accept that what you're currently proposing does have negative effects on a reasonable use case?
<jdub> mjg59: very minor negative effects on a very edge use case - sure
<mjg59> jdub: Negative effects of an error being generated when (in that case) there is no error
<jdub> sure there's an error -> your internet isn't working
<jdub> but you want to do something different, and that's okay
<mjg59> jdub: But I'm not trying to access the internet. I'm trying to open a local HTML document.
<mjg59> Right. You're overloading "Opening Firefox" to "Trying to access the internet"
<jdub> that's okay
<jdub> no we're not
<jdub> it just happens to be really good at that
<jdub> and telling you that you can't
<mjg59> jdub: You want people who open Firefox to be told whether or not they have internet access
<mjg59> jdub: And, in /other/ fringe cases, you result in Firefox sitting there for ages before generating an error message
<jdub> i want it to "do that network thing", because that is *VASTLY* the major use case
<mjg59> jdub: So, does your mum think that opening firefox when the start page is local is a test of the internet? (I don't know the answer to this)
<jdub> when i ask my mum, "are you connected to the internet?" she launches her browser
<jdub> betterdesktop.org had the same results
<mjg59> Does she launch her browser, or does she launch her browser, wait for it to say "Welcome to Ubuntu" and then type in a URL?
<ogra> we should probably postpone such a change until we have a sane way to handle dialup ...
* mdke hugs ogra
<jdub> mjg59: she sees the firefox start page working and says, "yes"
<ogra> since currently only the sudo user can use dialup ...
<mjg59> jdub: By that argument, a link at the top of a local page saying "Check if you're on the internet" would seem about as reasonable
<Burglaptop> jdub: part of that is due to not have a good way for Windows to notify the user as to network state, but that doesn't preclude s.u.c, in my mind
<jdub> Burglaptop: however it did it, users would do this anyway
<jdub> Burglaptop: because it's practical
<jdub> "is this water too hot?" ... "i'll put a thermometer in it!"
<Burglaptop> jdub: precisely why I am made the second part of that statement
<jdub> no, you touch the side of the glass, or dip your finger in
<mjg59> jdub: We can have firefox provide this information without having this sort of hack. It's just more effort.
<Burglaptop> mjg59: how do you know if your car can run? Do you look a light or do you just turn the key?
<mdke> Burglaptop, a car only has one function, to run.
<jdub> mjg59: this is not a hack. name a browser that ships with an offline home page.
<mdke> the browser does online and offline
<Burglaptop> mdke: for 95% of its life, so does a webbrowser
<jdub> standard operation for a network application
<jdub> it's not exactly surprising, scary or bad
<mjg59> jdub: It's a hack when "No route to host" is treated as equivalent to "You don't have the internet"
<mjg59> jdub: The two of these are not the same at all
<infinity> Indeed.
<mjg59> In many cases they overlap. But I think telling people "You don't appear to be on the internet. Would you like to be?" is much more sensible than "No route to host"
<Burglaptop> mjg59: in most cases, not being able to get to s.u.c is going to mena they cannot get the general interweb
<mjg59> And that's what IE does
<ogra> mjg59, even worse, in case of dialup there is "no such device"
<infinity> Note that windows DOES do this differently, so saying "we should use an online start page like windows does, cause they do it" isn't really quite right.
<jdub> mjg59: great, let's fix that bug when we can
<jdub> infinity: that's not what i'm saying
<infinity> Windows will detect the lack of an default gateway when you try to hit that start page, and prompt you to DO something about it (dial-up, etc)
<mjg59> It's also the case that most browsers ship with online start pages because the vendors want to be able to provide more up to date advertising
<infinity> In our case, as mjg59 says, we'll end up with "remote server dead" and "you have no internet" being the same error.
<mjg59> jdub: We have all the components to do that now. We just need someone to commit to us fixing it as a priority.
<jdub> infinity: post-dapper, We'll Have The Technology.
<jdub> mjg59: and we would like people to find ours useful, informative and up-to-date, not static.
<xhaker> a real hack would be: setting the page to an offline one.. and code that page so it fetches some content online ;) ala AJAX, while the data is not fetched a .gif showing some progress would indicate that something is being done!
<mdke> jdub, if the page will be short and light, it won't need a lot of updating
<mjg59> jdub: Right. If there's a desire to provide non-static information, then I'm all for that. That wasn't the argument you seemed to be making.
<Burglaptop> mdke: you are confusing short and light with static
<jdub> mdke: it will be short, light, and include dynamic content, and not forever look like arse after it's been distributed on a cd.
<Burglaptop> mdke: an rss feed of the top item on the fridge is short but not static
<jdub> mjg59: read the spec
<jdub> mjg59: even in its current state
<mdke> the looking like arse thing is not online-specific
<mdke> but the rss feed of the fridge sounds good yeah
<xhaker> have you read what i said?
<mdke> xhaker, yeah sounds cool
<Burglaptop> xhaker: can you do it?
<jdub> mdke: read "forever" and "static" louder than "look like arse"
<xhaker> it would be wierd to have too much stuff on the offline page tho
<xhaker> i guess the css would have to be the same unless the ubuntu-doc package is updated
<jdub> mdke: after 5 years, a static, on-cd/in-package dapper home page will look like arse.
<mdke> jdub, so you'll change the look?
<mdke> presumably the "welcome to ubuntu, ubuntu is great" stuff won't change a lot
<jdub> xhaker: it's an interesting idea, but doesn't really meet the spec - we may change what s.u.c does for all kinds of good reasons.
<jdub> mdke: of course
<jdub> there are lots of reasons it might change
<mdke> jdub, commercial ones?
<ogra> jdub, i really dont see the prob with changing the page through dapper-updates ...
<jdub> i like to think more in terms of marketing and outreach than commercial
<jdub> ogra: i do. sorry.
<Burglaptop> mdke: think of new things like the firdge
<jdub> ogra: not willing to ship a new package every time the fridge changes, or we launch a new service, or there's a new release, etc.
<jdub> ogra: or when we change our thematic approach to design, etc.
<ogra> jdub, i neqat in terms of looking outdated, not as a rss replacement
<jdub> ogra: just giving you all the reasons why that's not practical.
<ogra> s/neqat/meant/
<xhaker> jdub, so make the offline version just a bunch of divs? just the layout and some text saying it is Loading++! (and a css for positioning) and then get the content you want to the corresponding div..
<jdub> xhaker: ends up mostly nuking the benefit of doing it that way, and adding complication to boot.
<xhaker> so maybe the page woudn't look the same on breezy and on dapper
<xhaker> jdub, what i mean.. is that the offline version should already have some stuff.. 
<jdub> xhaker: i understand, but don't agree right now.
<xhaker> like: "Trying to get updates"
<xhaker> somehow it sound neat
<jdub> xhaker: i would prefer to have a fully online page, and if we know that's not going to work, a usefully informative "how to get online" kind of thing.
<xhaker> sounds easier f course
<xhaker> of*
<xhaker> you mean a fallback page?
<jdub> fallback functionality, most likely not a page
<jdub> (though it should be launched from a very basic page)
<xhaker> networkmagic <- shouldn't it set firefox to offline mode if there is no connection?
<jdub> yes
<jdub> please write a firefox extension to do that
<jdub> anyone
<jdub> that would be enormously useful
<Burglaptop> jdub: it is called epiphany and it is coming
<jdub> you can do it in a basic way without n-m, too
<xhaker> jdub, if there is a way to do this
<ogra> firat make n-m ready, fix dialup and all other underlying technology ....
<xhaker> then we just have to change the offline page in firefox
<jdub> Burglaptop: don't be fatuous
<ogra> sorry, but i dont see the point of an online startpage unless we have the basics right
<xhaker> i mean.. divert it
<jdub> ogra: no, there's a basic way to do it from firefox right now
<ogra> jdub, a way that enables my mom to dial in without bein sudo ? 
<jdub> ogra: people fix things because things get broken.
<jdub> ogra: that's a totally different problem
<ogra> n-m isnt ready since 3 releases
<jdong> I'm playing with backporting Openoffice, and would like to know why the symlink for xt.jar  is so specific?
<ogra> i dont see it fixed or even in main yet
<jdub> we don't need n-m to make this firefox change
<ogra> nope, thats ture 
<ogra> *true
<jdub> and dialup requiring sudo is a bug that can be fixed
<ogra> but we need a sane basic infrastructure befor using an online page as default 
<jdub> ogra: we don't
<xhaker> jdub, how?
<xhaker> how do we fix dialup needing sudo?
<jdub> xhaker: if i knew that off the top of my head, i'd have fixed it by now; however, there is nothing about the infrastructure that requires it
<mdke> if he knew, he'd have fixed it. He means that all bugs can be fixed.
<xhaker> because i need my wifi app on sudoers list and i would like to know if that's your idea
<jdub> the debian network system has been doing this for years
<daniels> dialup doesn't require sudo
<xhaker> oh
<jdub> something's been mucked up along the way
<daniels> it requires the user to be in the dialin group
<ogra> if you want to do network magic, you'll need the magic ... we only have the network yet ...
<jdub> if the bug exists at all
<daniels> if permissions are fucked, kick scott to fix udev
<jdub> (i strongly suspect that if this bug appears, it's due to something way up the stack just being stupid)
<ogra> daniels, its broken ...
<ogra> even in breezy ...
<ogra> yes, i agree its fixable ...
<jdub> ogra: the important thing to understand in all of this is that progress drives fixes.
<daniels> here I was thinking that patches drove fixes
<jdub> look no further than the modernisation of the X infrastructure for hundreds of examples of that.
<ogra> jdub, i totally agree, but i dont see the ressources that are needed to do more than fixing (i.e. adding the magic potion to it)
<xhaker> can someone give the url to the nifty build log page?
<jdub> daniels: patches are fixes.
<mdke> xhaker, people.u.c/~lamont
<jdub> ogra: as i said above, magic not required.
<daniels> jdub: 'progress drives fixes' is a bit too much 'we'll leverage our synergies for the benefit of all stakeholders' for me
<daniels> x isn't modern these days, it just has a better build, er, paradigm
<jdub> then you're not listening to it
<daniels> it doesn't change the fact that large chunks of it are decrepit, and we're still working around massive historical accidents
<xhaker> mdke, there was a differente interface before. :S
<ogra> jdub, magic like: the system knows i'm a dialup user and offers me to dial in if i'm not ... or connects to a working wlan or...
<daniels> (such as the fact that the device-independent part of the X server actually has huge dependencies on the device-dependent part of the X server, which we haven't been able to remove yet)
<mdke> xhaker, well they've always been there afaik
<jdub> ogra: that's not magic. it already exists. the only thing in the way is *fixes* - and the progress with n-m is *driving fixes*.
<jdub> daniels: you're talking about technology detail, not progress.
<xhaker> mdke, i've seen another page then.. was prettier
<xhaker> lol
<ogra> jdub, i'm just fearing that it will be a half brewed experience ...
<jdub> daniels: fontconfig/xft/cairo drove fixes to the rendering architecture.
<daniels> jdub: the fact still remains that creaking infrastructure is holding us back from delivering a kick-arse experience
<daniels> jdub: yes, and xrender still isn't sensibly accelerated *anywhere*
<jdub> daniels: and yet, it's being fixed because what we're doing demands it.
<daniels> (i'm discounting xglx, because it's bullshit.)
<jdub> daniels: don't muddy the point with irrelevant technical blather.
<jdub> ogra: we have a lot of half-arses in here. it's okay - we're adding the other half as we go.
<ogra> jdub, i hope so ... i really like the idea and would find it odd if it failed ...
<ogra> ... just because we lauched it to early ...
<aurynn_u> dynamic input driver loading would be cool, too :P
<daniels> don't use the word 'hotplug' in any context to do with X, ever
<maswan> so would wobbly windows
* maswan ducks
<jdub> wow, janet jackson beat hurricane katrina
<ogra> daniels, btw, i tried my ppc livecd and forgot to plug a mouse in ... the only thing i had lying around post boot was a little wacom tablet ... was a impressing experience to plug it in and just use the pen :)
<aurynn_u> also, some sort of icon to tell me that I have a wlan adapter. that'd be good :P
<jdub> http://www.google.com/press/zeitgeist2005/
<aurynn_u> ogra, same, but pressure tracking didn't quite work
<aurynn_u> ogra,  was impressed that it worked right away
<ogra> i just needed a mouse replacement :)
<ogra> didnt draw with it ;)
<daniels> jdub: the fucking loud clap of thunder outside is god's way of telling you you're wrong ;)
<daniels> ogra: actually that's not my fault, that's the kernel
<daniels> but thanks all the same
<ogra> still impressive :)
<jdub> daniels: blue skies.
<aurynn_u> I really like the integration of ubuntu. It feels pretty cohesive
<aurynn_u> really needs an icon or widget somewhere for Wifi presence and signal strength
<xhaker> aurynn_u, http://gtkwifi.sf.net shhhhhhhh
<xhaker> :P
<daniels> jdub: 36 on friday
<xhaker> update-notifier failed on i386 and successful on the other archs.. wierd..
<mdke> xhaker, so why is gtkwifi not in Ubuntu?
<xhaker> mdke, i' trying
<mdke> looks nice from the homepage
<xhaker> but.. the package on revu has no advocates
<mdke> is it in debian?
<aurynn_u> xhaker, why isn't it built in?
<xhaker> seems that messing with sudoers in postinst is pretty evil
<xhaker> so they say
<ogra> mdke, there s some packaging effort going on afaik ...
<xhaker> mdke, on revu already
<mdke> xhaker, revu is ubuntu right, what about debian?
<xhaker> only uploaded to revu yet
<ogra> mdke, i think the guy who wrote it wrote it on and for ubuntu ... it comes from the forums ...
<mdke> ogra, it is xhaker, no?
<ogra> its a nice package fro the utnubu guys
<ogra> xhaker, is yours ? 
<xhaker> it was started brian cairns, and now i'm continuing the work
<ogra> ah
<aurynn_u> does it show a nice little icon like Airport on MacOS?
<ogra> didnt sabdfl express intrest as well ? 
<xhaker> so you can say it's mine, brian doesn't mind.. lol
<xhaker> ogra, yes
<mdke> well I installed it and it doesn't appear in the list of applets :(
<ogra> ah, then i remember ...
<xhaker> sabdfl, prompted me to upload it to revu or make seb do it
<ogra> yup
<xhaker> mdke, killall gnome-panel
<sistpoty> but you should really get that sudoers-stuff sorted out, xhaker
<mdke> hmm, i thought i didn't need to do that these days
<xhaker> sistpoty, i know
<sistpoty> ogra: maybe you have some clever idea how to do it right
<xhaker> but i need suggestions
<xhaker> i don't want to make a daemon
<ogra> sistpoty, not at 3:40am in the morning ...
* sistpoty would go for s-bit
<ogra> sistpoty, but i'll look at it :)
<sistpoty> it's basically one script from user context calling another one which needs root rights... right xhaker?
<xhaker> mdke, maybe there is some update-panel-applets command i need.. LOl
<xhaker> sistpoty, right
<mdke> xhaker, i see it now, it's in a category on its own >_<
<mdke> it should be in System and Hardware I suppose
<mdke> anyhow, works good
<jdub> that gtkwifi stuff should just be integrated into network-admin
<mdke> yeah that would be good
<jdub> oh, it's an applet? hrm.
<mdke> but an applet is cool too
<aurynn_u> so, do I file bugs about the stuff that is sub-optimal?
<jdub> well, n-m does that, and the dialogue should live in network-admin
<mdke> aurynn_u, with Ubuntu, yeah sure
<aurynn_u> mdke, yes, that's what I meant. There's a category for UI and integration improvements?
<xhaker> what do you all think then.. do i ask upon install if the user wants the s-bit set for the file that needs root rights?
<mdke> aurynn_u, not a category per se, but you can mark it "enh"
<mdke> for enhancement
<aurynn_u> xhaker, so long as it is obvious what you mean
<xhaker> could it be done using a script instead of debconf?
<xhaker> or debconf must be used for that kind of stuff?
<sistpoty> I'd recommend using debconf... I'm not quite sure bout the "must" part though
<aurynn_u> hmm. sloppy focus lags a little
<xhaker> sistpoty, do you know how to do it? i never did
<sistpoty> xhaker: I did it once, but that was quite some time ago. I started from the examples from debconf-doc, which were pretty self-explaining
<xhaker> thanks
<sistpoty> (at least for simple question/answer type)
<xhaker> i'll check
<xhaker> although if there are other ideas post them
<xhaker> :P
<fabbione> morning
<ogra> oh, damned, time to go to bed ...
<ogra> morning fabbione :)
* fabbione shows a couple of fingers to ogra
<ogra> heh
<daniels> i am so mightily sick of typing out the phrase 'New upstream release.'
<xhaker> brb
<aurynn_u> truly, you need a template.
<xhaker> just saw a video about gedit with a python plugin that would ease that
<xhaker> but you don't use gedit anyway
<ogra> daniels, cant you just run a dch script since all packages have the same version anyway ? 
<aurynn_u> bugzilla SLOOOOW
<daniels> ogra: no, they don't all have the same version
<sistpoty> gn8 everyone
<daniels> ogra: plus, half of them have different epochs (none, one or two)
<ogra> ah, yes i see they only pretend to ...
<daniels> i think the spread is probably about 50% none, 40% one, 10% two
<ogra> even slight diff in the minor version
<daniels> ogra: well, they're all from x11r7 rc4
<daniels> but they have the same versions in the way that gnome modules have the same versions
<daniels> as in, not
<ogra> heh... odd
<daniels> *shrug*
<daniels> they're completely separate parts along completely separate lines of development
<daniels> half of them will never be touched again
<xhaker> doko, you read my pm?
<ogra> xhaker, its 4am here ... i doubt he's awake
<ogra> well, i'm neither ... night  ...
<xhaker> 3am here
<xhaker> nothing important to tell him tho
<xhaker> just some circular dependencies on eclipse i know he is aware but hasn't fixed :/
<daniels> if he's aware of it, a /msg probably won't help at all
<xhaker> probably will
<xhaker> because it's not just that
<xhaker> it's also the mozilla-browser dependencie
<daniels> also, if he hasn't responded to your message, public pokes won't help either
<aurynn_u> well, that's one way to keep people from filing bugs..
<fabbione> aurynn_u: kill them all inflicting exagerated amount of pain as world wide example for the newcomers?
* fabbione feels the taste of blood this morning
<aurynn_u> fabbione, make the bugtracker take 5 minutes to load the new bug page
<fabbione> that's no pain..
<daniels> jdub: http://mirror.bom.gov.au/products/IDR023.shtml
<fabbione> how is going kid?
<daniels> fabbione: good man, you?
<daniels> fabbione: just got two more packages left before I can upload this bastard
<fabbione> daniels: i am okish.. test building new kernels for warty/hoary/breezy
<fabbione> daniels: does that include sparc drivers?
<daniels> fabbione: sure does
<fabbione> daniels: you rock young punk!
<aurynn_u> every time someone must open the command line to do something, you have -failed!-
<daniels> i sure do
<Burglaptop> daniels: is 7.0 final not due tomorrow?
<daniels> Burglaptop: it is
<Amaranth> err
<Amaranth> i've been hearing about lots of problems with RC4
<daniels> Burglaptop: and, indeed, I wrote the release notes update today
<daniels> Amaranth: such as?
<Amaranth> daniels: nothing specific i can remember
<Amaranth> daniels: and it was gentoo users so....
<Amaranth> afaik they filed bugs in the fd.o bugzilla
<daniels> radeon is known to have issues on >= r3xx and ppc
<daniels> but otherwise it's pretty damn solid
<aurynn_u> yie, that quickscanning package thing bogs down the page load
* daniels waits for jennifer to wake up.
<aurynn_u> this is scarily slow.
<Burglaptop> daniels: my precious inbox!!!!
<daniels> Burglaptop: eh, I get a jennifer hit as well as the dapper-changes.  so, get proper filtering.
<Burglaptop> I was joking more than anything
<fabbione> daniels: EXA! .. EXA is the future!
<ryanpg> yikes, guess I showed up at an odd time
<daniels> note future, not present :P
<aurynn_u> the package description for gcombust is completely worthless if I'm any sort of neophyte user
<ryanpg> aurynn_u, "GTK+ based CD mastering and burning program" ?
<aurynn_u> Mine might be outdated, I have
<aurynn_u> A frontend for mkisofs/mkhybrid/cdda2wav/cdrecord/cdlabelgen
<ryanpg> aurynn_u, the one I quoted is from dapper
<aurynn_u> ah, I'm on breezy
<ryanpg> well rejoice it appears to be getting better :)
* aurynn_u has filed like 5 or 6 bugs already
<aurynn_u> and the web interface is painfully slow for that
<jdub> holy crap it's an X upload
<daniels> a couple of
<StevenK> Does that mean X11R7 is out? Most of the versions are 1.0.0
<fabbione> GO DANIELS!
<daniels> StevenK: it's painfully close
<ryanpg> daniels, I'm seeing X cpu usage over 20% while doing nothing (r200 dapper, p4 2.8ghz, exa and no xcompmgr) should I file a bug?
<StevenK> Aren't X uploads wonderful? You'd think daniels was trying to mailbomb -changes or something.
<daniels> StevenK: the only thing left to do before we can roll the tarballs is update the credits list
<fabbione> ryanpg: disable EXA in the first place
<daniels> ryanpg: yeah, I guess try disabling exa before, but a bug would probably be useful regardless
<ryanpg> ok, I'll try XAA, maybe I'll wait till this big batch of updates is installed though
<fabbione> daniels: btw.. if you get to upload 7.0 final, mind to remove me as maintainer of these a few billions mini-pkgs i did just for breezy?
<daniels> fabbione: will do
<fabbione> daniels: thanks mate
<daniels> i live to give
<fabbione> no comments on that
* fabbione heads for a shower
<StevenK> daniels: Does this mean imake is marked for death?
<StevenK> From the archive, I mean.
<daniels> StevenK: no, some external apps still use it
<daniels> so people (*cough*doko*cough*) hounded me incessantly and bitched until I put a working imake and xmkmf in the archive
<StevenK> Heh.
<StevenK> I had to find it again to build wnn6-sdk.
<daniels> however, 'are you removing it from the archive?' and 'do you care in the least about it' are markedly different questions
<StevenK> Of course.
<ryanpg> daniels, sorry to be a distraction but, does xserver-xorg-driver-ati 1:6.5.7.2-0ubuntu1 include the recent "radeon memory map" patch?
<daniels> ryanpg: not 0ubuntu1, no
<daniels> ryanpg: he's still working on it and should have a new revision tomorrow or so
<daniels> when that drops, I'll put it in
<ryanpg> cool, sounds like some good stuff
<maswan> hmm.. almost half a TB of flight-2 delivered from over here
<infinity> daniels : Missing build-deps for xlsatoms, xkill, xdriinfo, xrgb, xlsclients, xauth, x11perf, sessreg... So far.
<daniels> i'm on it
<daniels> inasmuch as the logs are getting uploaded, anyway
<infinity> Yeah, my INBOX is a bit faster than the log syncing.
<daniels> bouncing failures to daniel@fb.o would be appreciated
<jdub> elmo, Znarl: ping
<infinity> They're off.
<daniels> most of it's from the shuffling of dependencies into Requires.private in the .pc files
<daniels> so you can give back with a pretty broad brush once new libs I've uploaded have been accepted
<infinity> Alright, give me a poke when you think it's time, and I'll mass-give-back again.
<infinity> It's that sort of day anyway.
<daniels> ta
<daniels> that and half of the libxmu-dev build-deps seem to have spontaneously flipped to libxmuu-dev.  woo.
<fabbione> daniels: you also uploaded some stuff twice :)
<daniels> yeah
<daniels> your name's coming off in the 7.0 final uploads, btw
<fabbione> uh?
<daniels> reason is that I just reflexively build with -S -sa these days
<daniels> so I did that, and then realised, and thought katie still rejected it
<daniels> apparently she's nicer about it these days
<fabbione> ahh ok
<daniels> so the second wave all got bounced
<daniels> and yeah, I'm going to take you out of the maintainer field for those apps in 7.0 final
<daniels> that was what you wanted, yeah?
<fabbione> yup
<daniels> score
<fabbione> i misread for a second :)
<daniels> infinity: also, could you please nfu xserver-xorg-driver-sun{bw2,cg14,cg3,cg6,ffb} on all bar sparc
<Amaranth> err, if 7.0 is officially released tomorrow isn't the code now the same as the code that'll be released tomorrow?
<daniels> Amaranth: yes
<Amaranth> so shouldn't this upload be 7.0 final?
<Amaranth> that reminds me... did all that fancy exa and render accel stuff get into 7.0 for a radeon 9200?
<Amaranth> i wouldn't know where to start looking
<aurynn_u> 9200 is an 8500
<daniels> Amaranth: yes
<Amaranth> w00tage
<daniels> aurynn_u: not really
<Amaranth> now i just need dapper to boot... :)
<daniels> Mithrandir: if you could make PKG_CHECK_MODULES print out *why* it's failing (e.g. 'missing Requires xau from libx11'), I'd love you for at least seven minutes
<Amaranth> seven? wow, must be desperate
<daniels> i am
<lamont> daniels: xserver-xorg-driver-sis_1:0.8.1.1-0ubuntu1 and libxaw_2:0.99.3-0ubuntu1 both needed -ffunction-section love
<lamont> dunno if libxaw has the fix or not.
<lamont> ah, cool. libxaw does have it
<lamont> but driver-sis needs love
<daniels> -sis????
<daniels> how broken is hppa man
<infinity> lamont : You were supposed to be in bed.  If I'd known you were awake, I would have asked you for those hppa ABI files...
<daniels> infinity: you can try giving back when 1.0.0-0ubuntu2 of both libx11(-dev) and libxmu(u-dev) hit the archive
<pitti> Good morning
<crimsun> hi pitti 
<fabbione> hi pitti
<pitti> elmo: please remove the mozilla-firefox-locale-ja source and binary from dapper, it's superseded by mozilla-firefox-locale-all
<pappan> got disconnected
<sivang> morning all
<pappan> morning sivang
<sivang> hey pappan , what are you up to?
<pappan> sivang: nm
<pappan> today is bug day (hug day ;) ) .. so hoping i can contribute something :)
<sivang> pappan: ofcourse you can! Just drop by #ubuntu-bugs and I am sure you'll find something to help with.
<siretart> morning
<Mez> morning siretart, hows things ?
<siretart> Mez: generally okay, currently fighting with transcode, which is dlopen in strange ways.. how are you?
<Mez> I'm fine
<Mez> tired.
<Mez> Just moved house ... then gone to work for a night shift, now waiting for my bed to be delivered
<Mez> but good news! I have internet access
<Mez> so I can actually DO stuff now
<siretart> Mez: excellent! :)
<Mez> so, any chance of getting me up to speed with whats going on i Ubuntu World (and if theres any changes to upload process/anything similar)
<Mez> seeing as I dont really have time to read through the 10,000 emails I had while away
<Mez> (since UBZ)
<Mez> brb
<Mez> back :D
<seb128> infinity, lamont: please give a retry to contacts/i386
<paines> hi
<dholbach> hellas
<paines> I want to test apt-build for optimizing and installing some packages. but it is failing during build. anyone have experience with apt-build ?
<ogra> mvo, power-manager ? 
<mvo> ogra: yes ...
<ogra> elmo, could you please wipe power-manager from dapper ? it was a helper for the first gnome-power-manager releases and is  not used by anything anymore, the functionallity is moved into gnome-power-manager
<ogra> mvo, sorry, i forgot abut that one, it should disappear
<mvo> ogra: ah, ok. didn't knew that
<ogra> yes, thats why i said sorry ...
<mvo> np
<StevenK> lamont, infinity: Can one of you please look at weddell? It failed my xemacs21 build due to ENOSPC, so I suspect other builds have also failed.
<Mez> wb dholbach 
<dholbach> hi Mez 
* infinity pokes at weddell with a stick.
<infinity> 9.1G free.
<infinity> StevenK : Dear god, how big was the xemacs build?
<infinity> Oh, nevermind, it failed it on dowload.  Neat.
<infinity> May have been during livefs building.
<StevenK> infinity: You'll just ask it nicely to try again?
* infinity nods.
<StevenK> It required 260Mb on an amd64 and 180Mb on i386.
<infinity> Yeah, nothing.  weddell was just unpleasant to you at that very moment.
<ogra> cant you just remove the content and make the package provide a link on gvim ? 
* ogra hides
* StevenK kicks ogra.
<infinity> s/gvim/nvi/
<infinity> Then I can include the new xemacs in initramfs.
<ogra> nvi requires x ?
<infinity> No.
<mvo> ed *cough*
<ogra> yay
<infinity> I'd rather use a tiny magnet than ed.
<dholbach> hahaha
* StevenK hands infinity ex.
* mvo reboots (new kernel)
<doko> infinity: can you intrepret the ldd failure on amd64 (firefox build log)?
<infinity> doko : I haven't had a chance to dig deeply.  I know I can't reproduce it outside sbuild, which sucks.
<ogra> did you ask lamont ? probably he has an idea ...
* StevenK hrms at the build failure on ia64.
<infinity> doko : Hrm, wait.  When I tried to reproduce it, I didn't have the build-deps installed.  Maybe that tickles it.
* infinity tries again.
<infinity> ogra : Possibly, but it's something I've never seen before, so I'll bet he hasn't either.
<ogra> hmm
* infinity takes a buildd offline to re-spin the build and do more digging.
<doko> mvo: did you reproduce13308 on amd64 or i386?
<mvo> doko: on amd64 I think, but I haven't seen it in a long time
<doko> mvo: just reconfirmed. let the browser run for two or three days with 10 or more tabs open ...
<infinity> Meh, no, can't reproduce it without sbuild.  This should be FUN.
<StevenK> What the heck does sbuild do differently?
* StevenK scratches his head.
<infinity> Oh, wait.  Dies fine under fakeroot.  Silly me.
* infinity screams FAKEROOT BUG at the top of his lungs.
<StevenK> Wheee.
<infinity> fakeroot dh_shlibdeps     # fails
<infinity> LD_PRELOAD=/usr/lib/libfakeroot.so.0 fakeroot dh_shlibdeps  # succeeds
<infinity> I hate fakeroot so friggin' much.
<infinity> doko ^^^
<infinity> doko : Could this somehow relate to the (as yet unsycned) changelog entry for fakeroot 1.5.6 about "Change soname to avoid ldconfig cruft"
<doko> looking at fakeroot ...
<StevenK> /build/buildd/xemacs21-21.4.18/src/xemacs -batch ....
<StevenK> temacs can only be run in -batch mode.
* StevenK kicks ia64
<infinity> Be nice... ia64 tries.
<infinity> It just fails.
<StevenK> Well, now my toe hurts. :-P
<StevenK> Big bloody heavy noisy hot things.
<doko> infinity: the bug report is very informative :-/
<infinity> doko : I noticed.
<jdub> HA HA HA HA HA HA
<jdub> http://geekz.co.uk/lovesraymond/archive/clique
<infinity> I can't fathom why it works with an LD_PRELOAD when that precise PRELOAD is supposed to be done by fakeroot itself anyway.
<doko> infinity: I don't see why this should be related
<doko> infinity: but maybe we can stop merging fakeroot, when gcc-opt leaves alone the -m64/-m32 invocations ...
<doko> a merge can't hurt
<infinity> Oh, are we doing goofy things to fakeroot to work around gcc-opt being goofy?
<infinity> jdub : That's brilliant.
<infinity> doko : Oh, I'm doing goofy things.  Right. :)
* infinity didn't check the changelog.
<infinity> doko : Shall I merge, or will you?
<doko> infinity: if you want to ...
<infinity> May as well.  I don't have high hopes for it magically fixing this, but on the other hand, I'm all for lazy debugging in the form of "try new upstream first!!"
<mvo> jdub: haha, awesome
<pitti> infinity: just for the sake of planning, shall we do the PHP stuff today or tomorrow? or wait until after xmas?
<infinity> pitti : The distro meeting is in about 25 hours or so, right?
<pitti> infinity: yes
<infinity> pitti : I'll have uploads before that, if you want us to do the release right after.
<infinity> pitti : (I'm on a plane at some point tomorrow, going up north for Christmas, but will be online in the evening for the meeting and for this)
<pitti> infinity: that would be great
<StevenK> infinity: How far north?
<infinity> Cairns.
<StevenK> I thought you swore off Cairns.
<freeflying_> seb128:  ping
<infinity> I did, but Zofia's family didn't.
<infinity> They kinda, y'know, live there.
* StevenK nods.
<StevenK> Thankfully my mother is out of the country, so I can have a slightly less painful Christmas this year.
<seb128> freeflying_: pong
<freeflying_> seb128:  will ubuntu use ttf-arphic-uming as default chinese font in dapper
<freeflying_> seb128: will you have a look on this :https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MainInclusionReportTtfarphicuming
<seb128> freeflying_: I've no idea, I don't anything about chinese, I don't know the font and I don't to main promotion
<janimo> freeflying_, you could try asking in #ubuntu-desktop
<freeflying_> seb128:  then who can help me on this 
<seb128> freeflying_: mail the ubuntu-devel list maube
<seb128> maybe
<freeflying_> seb128: thx
<seb128> np
<ogra> freeflying_, see the UbuntuMainInclusionQueue page, it has a description of the process at the top ...
<freeflying_> ogra: thx
<freeflying_> ogra: it's have been approved , and have been add to kubuntu as default chinese fonts ,but not in ubuntu
<seb128> freeflying_: "default chinese fonts"? what is that? to fontconfig list?
<ogra> its in the "not ready to promote section"
<ogra> so something is missing or the seeds arent changed yet etc ...
<freeflying_> seb128:  we want to use these two  replace ttf-arphic-gbsn00lp ,etc 
<seb128> freeflying_: right, but you do set "it's the font to use for chinese"?
<seb128> if that's a fontconfig priority change that will do the trick for GNOME too
<freeflying_> seb128: they are just chinese fonts 
<seb128> right but you said you add them as default chinese fonts
<seb128> what did you do to set them as default?
<freeflying_> seb128: they have their own conf ,and can be used by fontconfig in /etc/fonts/conf.d/
<ogra> freeflying_, fontconfig manages the default thats used ... if you want to make it the default, that requires a change to fontconfig ...
<ogra> thats why they are still stuck in univers i guess .... alongside with a missing seed change 
<freeflying_> ogra: that's means we need changes in fontconfig?
<ogra> probably ...
<ogra> but what seb128 said is valid, so you eed to change the system, not only the font to change a default
<ogra> s/eed/need/
<freeflying_> ogra: then it may not be changed?
<ogra> sure it may, you just need to make the right changes ...
<ogra> what i'm missing is point 1 from the UbuntuMainInclusionQueue ....
<ogra> there was no discussion about it, probably the majority of asian font users disagrees or something, they should get a chance to speak up about it ...
<ogra> changing a default font affects many users, so it should be discussed in public before the change happens
<zul> heylo
<ogra> the fontconfig change will be trivial i think
<freeflying_> ogra: shall we have a vote for this ?
<ogra> freeflying_, just a discussion as advised in the process ...
<ogra> in fact that should have taken place before the main inclusion report was even written :)
<freeflying_> ogra: then , what shall i do for this 
<ogra> mail the ML as advised and start a discussion ... if nobody objects, find out what to do to change the default in fontconbfig and submit a patch
<infinity> doko : Meh.  New fakeroot didn't help.  If this can't be reproduced outside the DC, I'll have to look at it later.
<doko> :-(
<ogra> still hunting the firefox bug ? 
<ogra> freeflying_, oh
<ogra> freeflying_, thats blocking it https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MainInclusionReportXdelta
<ogra> freeflying_, so you have to make sure the bug in xdelta is fixed before it can even enter main ...
<ogra> heh, what a funny rationale "Looks generally useful." 
<freeflying_> ogra: actually these two package needn't depent on xdelta 
<ogra> so fix the dependency https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MainInclusionReportTtfarphicuming says it depends on it 
<ogra> as well as https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MainInclusionReportTtfarphicukai
<infinity> doko : Oh, hrm.  I wasn't looking closely enough.  There are two libfakeroot-sys.so libs...
<freeflying_> ogra:  ok 
<ogra> and make sure its really not needed....
<infinity> doko : The one LD_PRELOADED by fakeroot is /usr/lib/libfakeroot/libfakeroot-sysv.so .... The one I was preloading (and making stuff magically work) was /usr/lib/libfakeroot-sysv.so
<freeflying_> ogra: y
<infinity> doko : Two very different libs, from the looks of things.
<ogra> freeflying_, the xdelta page talks about a build dependency, not about a dependency
<pitti> freeflying_, ogra: I wrote a main inclusion report about xdelta and rejected  it
<pitti> freeflying_: the packages shuold be redone without binary patches (uuencode for my sake, or whatever)
<ogra> pitti, freeflying_ thinks xdelta isnt needed, if thats ture, the font packages need fixing
<pitti> ogra: I suspect that they ship some font changes as binary patch, so they don't?
<pitti> if so, we should just change the orig.tar.gz, that's easiest probably
<ogra> *shudder*
<ogra> is there a possibility we could get debian to do that ? 
<ogra> to save is headaches ...
<ogra> s/is/us/
<mvo> Riddell: is kmerlin removed permanently?
<Riddell> mvo: no idea, what is it?
<mvo> Riddell: some IM thing, the name sounded like you might know aobut it 
<Riddell> it's not in debian testing or unstable, I'd guess it's obsolete
<mvo> Riddell: thanks
<infinity> doko : When telling Clint about the problem, the exact response was "that's bizarre"
<infinity> doko : This might take some back and forth.
<doko> infinity: but it's only seen on amd64?
<seb128> elmo: gnome-doc-utils verbiste netkit-ftp syncs please 
<infinity> doko : Yes.
<infinity> doko : I'm goint to poke it with a rather ugly stick a bit later, but for the next 24+ hours, assume I'm nowehere near firefox/amd64.  Too many other tasks, and that one's making my head bleed.
<seb128> speaking about firefox it's still broken
<ogra> yup
<seb128> epiphany-browser doesn't build with current package on i386
<jbailey> seb128: Eh?  totem seems installable now.  Different issue?
<seb128> which breaks the dbus transition
<seb128> jbailey: epiphany is not ...
<doko> infinity: that's ok, need it for OOo which doesn't build on amd64 anyway :-)
<jbailey> seb128: YEah, I notied that.  Had assumed we were still catching up. =)
<seb128> jbailey: no, it refuses to build, main has been transition out of it
<jbailey> Ah.  Okay.
<jbailey> It was in my list of things to ask you about tomorrow. =)
<Q-FUNK> I'm just wondering, is there a page on the wiki that lists the current version of the win32 ports found in the daily builds of the live cd?
<xhaker> anyone know what's the module for usb cdrom drives?
<xhaker> if that even exists
<seb128> jbailey: I've no dbus atm
<zakame> hm aren't usb cdroms using some scsi/atapi magic?
<seb128> jbailey: I had to pick my browser or dbus, easy choice :p
<mjr> yah, I think it's the SCSI cdrom driver, whatever that was called
<xhaker> my laptop dvd drive is not detected, it's usb.. there is no /dev/hdc as it used to be.. kernel or udev
<ogra> Q-FUNK, http://www.theopencd.org/
<jbailey> seb128: =)
<xhaker> good.. the kernel has sr_mod loaded
<Q-FUNK> ogra: I know that the live Cd is a shared project with them.  that doesn't answer my question :)
<ogra> if there is a list, its on that page
<xhaker> incase you didn't noticed. there are problems with the preinst of the new locales package
<seb128> what?
<Q-FUNK> ogra: not quite.  what goes on the ubuntu CD is a subset of that.  also, unless I'm mistaken, there are no daily builds of that.
<seb128> xhaker: like http://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel-announce/2005-December/000026.html ?
<seb128> xhaker: http://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel-announce/2005-December/000043.html I mean
<xhaker> i read that yesterday
<xhaker> didn't understood right, not even know
<xhaker> now*
<xhaker> silly
<ogra> Q-FUNK, no idea ... i only know that this is the only ressource ...
<jdub> eh, hmm
<jdub> small help required
<ogra> jdub, this is no support channel :P
<jdub> which section of the world have i missed in this list:
<ogra> *giggles insanely*
<jdub> western europe
<jdub> eastern europe
<jdub> asia
<jdub> north america
<jdub> south america
<jdub> africa
<jdub> middle east
<jdub> australasia
<Q-FUNK> any particular reason for dividing east/west europe?
<jdub> yeah, those are probably more likely as tour destinations
<Q-FUNK> might as well add northern europe.
<xhaker> i could get some more.. scandinavia (northern europe, sweden, norway)
<xhaker> Q-FUNK, true
<jdub> you wouldn't regard those as western europe?
<ogra> i would
<Q-FUNK> there is a far bigger division between northern europe and continetal europe than there is between east and west, nowadays.
<xhaker> jdub, i don't think they're in that group
<jdub> i'd cover those in a western europe tour...
<jdub> if that's the case, i'll just put 'europe'
<xhaker> jdub, make sure you tour in Portugal ;)
<jdub> * europe
<Q-FUNK> as far as planning a tour in different phases go, I'd probably do the batlics (or at least estonia) at the same time as northern europe / scandinavia.
<jdub> * middle east
<jdub> * africa
<jdub> * north america
<jdub> * south america
<jdub> * asia
<jdub> * australasia
<xhaker> australasia?
<Q-FUNK> oceania
<xhaker> never heard that term
<jdub> xhaker: do you know the term oceania?
<ogra> atlantis !
<xhaker> i do
<xhaker> australia too
<jdub> 01:35 < Q-FUNK> as far as planning a tour in different phases go, I'd probably do the batlics (or at least estonia) at the same time as northern europe / scandinavia.
<xhaker> but australasia looks like a mix between australia and asia
<jdub> ogra: i was thinking of putting a joke one in, but i'm actually really interested in what the proper answers are ;-)
<jdub> ogra: thought putting antarctica in would be good
<jdub> xhaker: australasia basically means .au and .nz
<Q-FUNK> jdub:  that second list makes sense.  then again, asia is downright huge.  might wanna ask people from the -stans, china and countries along the silk road how they would subdivide this.
<jdub> i'll switch to oceania, which is more likely for a tour anyway
<ogra> jdub, "european union" ? and "rest of europe" ?
<Treenaks> ogra: 'us' and 'them' ?
<jdub> ogra: troll! ;)
<ogra> yeah, probably with a better wording ...
<jdub> http://fridge.ubuntu.com/node/196
<ogra> coming soon ? 
<jdub> oh
<ogra> at least its freely licensed :)
<jdub> because it's not published
<Q-FUNK> heh
<jdub> ah, bugger it, may as well put it live
<madduck> sabdfl: enjoy... http://geekz.co.uk/lovesraymond/archive/clique
<madduck> :)
<Q-FUNK> :-D
<jdub> alright, published
<jdub> vote your pants off
* ogra votes for asia and africa ...
<ogra> gah, i can onl vote for one ...
<ogra> *onyl
<ogra> grr
<ogra> *only
<aigarius> jdub, if the event is free software related, I can help organise it in Latvia and I also have contacts with rest of baltics
<Q-FUNK> ditto here for estonia/finland.
<madduck> and switzerland
<pitti> doko: please read u-d-a, kthxbye :)
<Q-FUNK> madduck: ireland?
<madduck> Q-FUNK: nope. i told you i am not moving. nothing will make me move away from .ch
<Q-FUNK> madduck: ah, so you are only registered for your PhD there?
<xhaker> lol
<madduck> Q-FUNK: yes. i'll write remotely. once my hands are cured.
<coleSLAW> Hello.  jbailey wants to tell you all that he is without power for at least the next two hours.
<coleSLAW> He would like to have told you himself, but this is difficult to do over IRC without electricity.
<Q-FUNK> sabdfl: in Finland, impi has a whole other meaning. release a distro named ImpiLinux here and I guarantee you a lineup of sugar daddies. ;)
<mvo> infinity: would it be possible to get a not-quite-so-up2date glib (2.8.x) on a ppc porting machine to test if mono builds with that ? 
<koe1> Any Ubuntu developper in here who works on Xorg?
<pitti> mvo: try to build it in davis' breezy dchroot?
<slomo> pitti, (mvo): not a good idea... it definitly works on breezy, for a good test it would be better to only downgrade glib but not glibc, etc
* mvo kicks his network
<mvo> infinity: ping?
<Riddell> Kamion: I just tried to make a kubuntu install CD and it seemed to run fine but it hasn't been put in the archives, have I missed something?
<Riddell> bah, he ran away
<ogra> Riddell, he's on holiday
<Riddell> ogra: guys like kamion don't do holidays :)
<ogra> i know, but he tries to pretend to :)
<ogra> Riddell, you got access to CDbuilds ? 
<Riddell> ogra: yes
<ogra> even for edubuntu ?
<Riddell> ogra: yes, same machine, it's still all new to me
<ogra> ok, at least i know whom to poke about it :)
<Riddell> sure, I can always try :)
<ogra> i'll have to go the same path as well one day ...
<aurynn_u> Impressive.
<aurynn_u> Samba works without me having to do anything.
<aurynn_u> good: Samba works flawlessly.
<aurynn_u> Bad: how the fuck do I get mp3 support working?
* aurynn_u files a bug
<greenpenguin13> automatix
<HiddenWolf> aurynn_u, this is not a support channel, but install gstreamer0.8-plugins-multiverse
<HiddenWolf> greenpenguin13, automatix is ugly stuff.
<aurynn_u> HiddenWolf, I know it's not a support channel
<greenpenguin13> HiddenWolf: how come?
<aurynn_u> HiddenWolf, I'm telling you "This is non-intuitive and stupid. Fix it."
<dholbach> gstreamer0.8-mad rather
<HiddenWolf> aurynn_u, mp3 is not free, the choice here is between funding development for a year or paying for a license to distribute mp3-codecs
<HiddenWolf> aurynn_u, filing a bug won't change that.
<aurynn_u> HiddenWolf, I understand that
<aurynn_u> HiddenWolf, but why isn't it obvious how to do it?
<HiddenWolf> aurynn_u, it will be for 6.04.
<aurynn_u> "Ah, you are trying to play an mp3. You need to do X to do that."
<dholbach> aurynn_u: it's in the Ubuntu Guide
<HiddenWolf> aurynn_u, there is a specification that will implement exactly that.
<Pygi> aurynn_u: because just "making it obvious" requires payment to the MP3 licence holders
<aurynn_u> dholbach, is it on my screen when I try to play an mp3? does totem automatically try to acquire the right mp3?
<dholbach> aurynn_u: and please choose your words more carefully. "Fix it." is nothing anybody of us wants to be told.
<aurynn_u> dholbach, if not, you fucked up.
<Pygi> hey, calm down
<aurynn_u> :)
<HiddenWolf> aurynn_u, code of conduct
<Pygi> it's not like developers like to be pushed around 
<Pygi> so stop it
<coleSLAW> jbailey: Ah, you''re back.
<dholbach> hey coleSLAW 
<jbailey> coleSLAW: Yup
<aurynn_u> Pygi, certain assumptions are made that shouldn't be made. "It's in the guide" or "You just need to do <non-trivial hard thing>" are quite clearly failures, and need to be pointed out
<jbailey> coleSLAW: Of course, my box seems to have eaten udev in the power failure.
<jbailey> coleSLAW: So I'm now trying to figure out how to get it working again.
<HiddenWolf> aurynn_u, i just told you that this is being adressed. twice.
<Pygi> aurynn_u: actually, don't use guide. it's broken and most things will just cause a headache ;)
<aurynn_u> (which is why I've been filing bugs about non-optimal behaviour)
<aurynn_u> HiddenWolf, which is good! I approve.
<aurynn_u> and I am most impressed with Samba
<Pygi> aurynn_u: filling a bug report won't change nothing. 
* ogra imagines jbailey sitting on a stationary bicycle driving a generator to run his laptop :)
<Hieronymus> HiddenWolf: you don't need multiverse for mp3 playback
<Pygi> aurynn_u: the mp3 support will never be avaible out-of-the-box
<aurynn_u> Pygi, it ought to ask me if I want to download the codec for it
<ogra> guys, can you please take that discussion elsewhere ? #ubuntu-offtopic or something ? 
<Pygi> ogra:k, I just won't talk
<jbailey> ogra: Nah, power's back.
<aurynn_u> I might point out this is wholly on-topic, though my issue was addressed by HiddenWolf 
<aurynn_u> (in that this behaviour has been noted and is being fixed)
<ogra> jbailey, ah, thought you took the interim solution :)
<ogra> aurynn_u, this channel is where we coordiante our work, in case you dont have a patch to submit, take it somewhere else ... it wont help you to rant about stuff we cant do anything about in here ...
<aurynn_u> ogra, my ranting includes diatribes against X11, heh. I'm not ranting or trolling. I'm filing bugs and pointing out flaws and failures in the integration
<coleSLAW> jbailey: Excellent.  My work here is done.
<fabbione> aurynn_u: filing bugs is enough. that's enough said.
<fabbione> attempting escalation in here is useless
<aurynn_u> ooh, there's a bug
<lamont> daniels: it's the ld -r stuff that breaks things...
* lamont kicks transcode for having non-PIC in shlibs
<\sh> elmo: please sync gaphor from unstable, dropping ubuntu changes, thx
<LaserJock> elmo: ping?
<LaserJock> elmo: nm, I will email you.
<\sh_away> elmo: please sync libaqbanking from unstable, dropping ubuntu changes thx
<siretart> lamont: whats the problem with transcode? what mistake did I do this time? ;)
<crimsun> 0ubuntu2 built fine, unless you're referring to ia64
<mdke> Riddell, how did you get on with *-docs today?
<siretart> I hope he doesn't want to have transcode built on hppa ;)
<mdke> JaneW, ping?
<mdke> or maybe ogra 
<Surak> hello
<Pygi> hi
<Surak> I have an issue with a modem on breezy (not for the -users channel). The sl-modem-source locks every machine I run it into. 
<Surak> not even alt-sysrq (hi crimsun :-) )
<Surak> does this package have an maintainer in ubuntu? or is it directly imported from debian?
<dholbach> have a nice evening
<Surak> night daniel
<Pygi> you to dholbach
<crimsun> Surak: I believe I touched it last, but it doesn't have a maintainer per se
<Surak> crimsun: get this modem working on ubuntu is quite important for me. How can I help making it work?
<daniels> Surak: see if newer upstream versions fix it, etc, etc
<daniels> Surak: basically, 'find a solution'
<Surak> daniels: I'm not a programmer. I can help with equipment, testing, but unfortunately not with code.
<crimsun> Surak: nothing in -7 appears to resolve it; you should try upstream's 2.9.10 which we cannot distribute
<daniels> Surak: in that case, I'm afraid this is off-topic for -devel ...
<Surak> crimsun: breezy has sl-modem-source 2.9.10+2.9.9d . what are you talking about?
<Surak> crimsun: that's the one I'm trying.
<crimsun> Surak: I accidentally uploaded the non-distributable 2.9.10 and then reverted it to 2.9.9d
<crimsun> the version in Breezy is 2.9.9d-6 from Debian
<Surak> 2.9.10 fails to compile on ubuntu. 
<sivang> daniels: do you know if lshw replaces lshal ?
<daniels> sivang: they serve different purposes, I believe
<sivang> daniels: ok, thanks. (hi btw)
<crimsun> Surak: then try http://linmodems.technion.ac.il/packages/smartlink/slmodemd-2.9.11_20051009_gcc4.tar.gz
<daniels> sivang: yo
<mhz> smurf: ping
<smurf> mhz: ?
<mhz> smurf: i wont bug you more and i am truly sorry but anychances you could place the last ssh key i sent a week or so ago?
<sivang> daniels: I'm working on a way to detect which kind of media devices a system has, from python. simplest and fastest way appears to be popening lshw's xml output and traverse the xml tree.
<smurf> mhz: duh, one moment
<mhz> smurf: thx for the patience to my stupidity
<sivang> crimsun: hehe, that's still served from  my former university web site :)
<smurf> mhz: done
* mhz opening terminal
<sivang> crimsun: s/web site/web server/
<mhz> smurf: educool! i am in
<mhz> thx, smurf 
<jdong> people want me to backport ooo2 from Dapper (both the m143 snapshot and the 2.0.1 packages when they come out)...
<jdong> currently, these packages don't compile because the breezy patch ooo-build/patches/src680/use-free-xt-xp-jaxp-from-system-breezy.diff references an xt.jar that's in dapper
<jdong> I was wondering if it's possible to make the xt.jar symlinking process more intelligent / distinguish between Dapper and Breezy
<doko> jdong: sureley there is, but there are more changes needed for breezy packages. there will be packages built for breezy, we'll still have to decide, if those are good enough to go to breezy-updates
<jdong> doko: cool, so there are already potential plans for making OOo updates for BREezy?
<jdong> and also, out of curiousity, what kind of "more changes"? The packages I built from Dapper seem to work fine on my system after xt.jar symlinks properly
<doko> jdong: build dependencies
<jdong> doko: huh, on the 2.0.0m143 Dapper packages? They resolve fine here with apt-get build-dep
<doko> jdong: you did ask for 2.0.1
<jdong> doko: in the long run, yes :)
<mhz_BBS> smurf: I have edited 3 times the wikiconfig.py file 'successfully' but changes don't get made (so it seems), even after I refresh the cache in firefox. Any ideas?
<smurf> mhz_BBS: you need to kill the fcgi process.
<mhz_BBS> okis, thx
<mdke> mhz_BBS, #ubuntu-locoteams
<mhz_BBS> mdke: oops, i had no memory of such channel, sorry.
<mdke> mhz_BBS, np, we can help you with any problems, hopefully
<mdke> is there any place I can see the packages which ship with ubuntu-server?
<Nafallo> mdke: .list
<mdke> Nafallo, i don't know what that means I'm afraid
<Nafallo> mdke: http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-server/daily/current/dapper-install-i386.list
<Nafallo> :-)
<mdke> thanks
<Burglaptop> mdke: you actually want this http://people.ubuntu.com/~cjwatson/seeds/
<mdke> what Nafallo showed me did the trick, but i'll check that out too
<mdke> hmm so it ships with both exim4 and postfix?
<mdke> that can't be right, exim4 is in universe...
<Pygi> hm, maybe it will integrate in main? :/
<mdke> Burglaptop, http://people.ubuntu.com/~cjwatson/seeds/ubuntu-server-dapper/server has universe packages in, do you know why that is?
<Nafallo> mdke: source is in main...
<mdke> ah, perhaps it's in dapper main and breezy universe?
<Pygi> yup
<Pygi> probably
<mdke> oh no, i'm running dapper
* mdke slaps himself
<Pygi> ;)
<mdke> Nafallo, so it's fully supported?
<Nafallo> mdke: well, the source is so... ;-)
<Burglaptop> mdke: no idea
<Nafallo> it was in main for breezy no?
<ogra> mdke, this is what you want http://people.ubuntu.com/~cjwatson/seeds/ubuntu-server-dapper/server
<Nafallo> aha!
<Nafallo> exim4 binary is a dummy, no? :-)
<mdke> ogra, that is what I just posted... so can you explain why it has universe packages in?
<ogra> and it ships exim4-{base,daemon-light,daemon-heavy}
<ogra> there are no universe pakages in
<Nafallo> or meta-package rather :-)
<mdke> ahh
<mdke> just exim4 is in universe?
<ogra> the binarys are all in main
* netjoined: irc.freenode.net -> brown.freenode.net
<mdke> ok i see thanks
<ogra> migth be that exim4 (source) is
<ogra> sorry, havent made the -doc change yet, will do it now
<mdke> ogra, any idea if Riddell's package is working ok?
<mdke> i'd like to give it a try
<ogra> it looked as it would to me
<ogra> but i havent heard back from infinity 
<mdke> okay, no rush
<ogra> dunno if he had time yet
<ogra> firefox is ftbfs on amd64 and blocks half the world, i gues he prioritizes it
<mdke> quite right too
<Nafallo> elmo: you are doing the NEW queue? :-)
* Nafallo checks dapper-changes *
<seb128> Nafallo: what new?
<Nafallo> seb128: network-manager introduced network-manager-dev :-/
<seb128> oh
<seb128> you have updated to current upstream :)
<Nafallo> yea, and for dhcdbd aswell :-)
<Nafallo> and got rid of bind9 :-P
<seb128> cool
<seb128> does it work fine?
<Nafallo> works here for weeks :-)
<Nafallo> ...and with new dbus all day :-)
<seb128> nice
<Nafallo> built on all arches to, just need it to go into the archive now :-)
<seb128> infinity, lamont: could you give a retry to epiphany-browser when the new firefox upload has built?
<sebest_> Hello, anyone knows the status of movinf avahi to main?
<seb128> not done yet
<sebest_> seb128, is it plan?
<seb128> yep
<seb128> it's listed on the wiki
<seb128> and we are poking pitti quite frequently about it
<sebest_> great :)
<seb128> but it's not an easy piece of code to read so he's not in an hurry
<sebest_> he wants to review it for security?
<seb128> btw are you the guy who wrote the nautilus/samba stuff some time ago?
<seb128> yeah, that's a part of the promotion procedure
<sebest_> yes, i'm also an avahi dev (that's why i'm asking about it)
<seb128> know if the code is maintainable
<seb128> and has no obvious security issue
<seb128> oh, cool
<sebest_> avahi's code doesn't run as root at all
<seb128> right, but still we don't want to ship crashy code
<sebest_> yeah that make a lot of sense :)
<seb128> anyway it's on the list of promotion
<seb128> and people are pushing for it
<seb128> I think it'll be worked start of 2006
<seb128> (people are on holidays next week)
<Nafallo> 3 year support of avahi if it's get in :-)
<sebest_> good, i wrote some patch for it in gnomemeeting and vino
<seb128> BTW about this nautilus/samba stuff, are you still working on it? did it get packaged for Ubuntu?
<seb128> I still think we should ship that somewhere, it's nice for users to have
<Nafallo> seb128: wiki? :-)
<sebest_> yes, i still work on it (even if the last weeks i was working on avahi)
<sebest_> a novell guy contacted me about it
<Nafallo> what is that stuff? :-)
<sebest_> they wanted to include it in the next nld release
<seb128> "wanted"? they changed their mind on it?
<sebest_> no :)
<slomo> oh hi sebest_ :)
<sebest_> hi slomo :)
<sebest_> they still want it, he is working with a samba dev
* Nafallo still wonders where he can read about what "it" is ;-)
<seb128> sebest_: working on what?
<sebest_> Nafallo, http://gentoo.ovibes.net/nautilus-share/mediawiki-1.4.4/index.php/Accueil
<sebest_> on integrating it in NLD
<sebest_> seb128: wait a second, i find the name of the guys
<seb128> sebest_: I'm not really interest by the guy, rather to get it packaged for Ubuntu ... were you working on that?
<Nafallo> woha! that looks nice :-)
<seb128> you had some .deb
<sebest_> Federico Mena Quintero
<seb128> oh, federico
<seb128> he does a lot of stuff for GNOME
<seb128> he maintains the GTK fileselector by example :)
<sebest_> yes, that's why ;)
<slomo> i could package it if noone else wants to :)
<ogra> i thought he was a DB addicted
<sebest_> and the samba guy is Jeremy Allison
<seb128> ogra: you speak about rodrigo no?
<ogra> ah, yes, i always muddle them ;)
<sebest_> federico is also working on improving gnome-vfs samba support
<sebest_> about the deb package i did one
<sebest_> seb128: http://gentoo.ovibes.net/nautilus-share/ubuntu/breezy/source/
<seb128> sebest_: did you try to ping some motu about it?
<sebest_> yes, i did, i posted it, on a wiki page
<seb128> cool
<seb128> I'll ping dholbach tomorrow about it
<seb128> jbailey: you may be interested by that stuff
<slomo> sebest_: i can review it later if you want... but as a first change make it a non-native package an remove the .svn directories ;)
<seb128> slomo: that would be nice
<jbailey> seb128: Hmm?
<seb128> jbailey: http://gentoo.ovibes.net/nautilus-share/mediawiki-1.4.4/index.php/Accueil
<sebest_> slomo, i didn't know about make dist at this time ;)
<seb128> jbailey: have a quick look on the screenshoots to get an idea :)
<sebest_> since i worked on avahi, my autotools skill improved a lot :)
<jbailey> Ooo!
<jbailey> s this in Breezy?
<ogra> hey, i thought that was packaged long ago ...
<slomo> sebest_: hehe... are you still there in... say... one hour?
#ubuntu-devel 2005-12-27
<seb128> jbailey: no, but there is a package on the website
<sebest_> slomo, dunno :)
<jbailey> seb128: Any chance of me batting my eyelashes at you sweetly to consider it for desktop?
<seb128> jbailey: it was on my list of cool stuff, I'll make sure we have it for dapper
<jbailey> Cool.  I'm just looking at a new swfdec right now.
<seb128> I dropped it somewhere before 5.10
<jbailey> Convincing it that it wants to compile.
<seb128> k
<Nafallo> oooh, swfdec.
<jbailey> But if the README and the Changelog are any indication, it looks like a far better bet.
<ogra> seb128, you got my full support there ...
<jbailey> ogra: Careful.  He'll assign all the bugs to you.
<Nafallo> I have the ~/tmp/badger.swf to try it on for amd64 ;-)
<ogra> jbailey, i'll happily take them ... i can be a hard bone in bugzilla :)
<Pygi> hehe valandil ;)
<sebest_> seb128, btw federico is working on modifying nautilus-share not to use dbus
<jbailey> What's wrong with dbus?
<sebest_> he is working in collaboration with jeremy to add support in samba itself for this feature
<sebest_> jbailey, nothing , but i think this could be done with samba's IPC
<sebest_> i used dbus, because i wanted to work with a vanilla samba
<slomo> sebest_: did you get a query from me?
<seb128> sebest_: what feature use dbus?
<sebest_> slomo: a query?
<sebest_> seb128: the nautilus-extension talks with a deamon using dbus
<slomo> sebest_: ok, so you got none? weird...
<sebest_> the deamon modifies a file that is included by samba
<slomo> sebest_: anyway... for the nautilus-share package... copyright is definitely too small (need to add license, copyright holders, etc), cdbs and libxml-parser-perl are missing as a build-dependency, add ${misc:Depends} to the Depends of the package and you should make it a non-native package :) other than that it seems to be fine to me but i haven't tested it yet, only built it
<sebest_> slomo: what is the difference between a native and a non-native package?
<slomo> sebest_: a non-native one has a orig.tar.gz (i.e. the upstream tarball) and a diff.gz adding the debian specific changes... a native one consists of only a tar.gz with everything in there, including debian specific changes
<sebest_> slomo: ok
<sebest_> slomo: i will implement your advices tomorow
<slomo> sebest_: thanks, just ping me when you're done... and consider mailing keyring@tiber.tauware.de with your gpg key and asking for a revu login :)  ( http://revu.tauware.de/ )
<sebest_> slomo: no problem :)
<slomo> sebest_: btw, i'll most probably find some time around christmas to work on s-d-a for the new plugin system :) and it's now in debian since some minutes
<sebest_> slomo: me too, after the snowboard sessions ;)
<sebest_> i'll have to port it to the new notification api
<slomo> sebest_: that too... maybe i find some time for it earlier... where are you snowboarding? :)
<sebest_> i'll go to "la plagne"
<sebest_> and to "val thorens" in march
<Valandil> hi Pygi :-))
<Pygi> hi hi
<Valandil> :)
<Pygi> heh, I wanted to ask why all the smilyes but that's offtopic  ;)
<Riddell> mdke: I've not done anything with the docs today
<mdke> Riddell, ah k
<ryanpg> daniels, hi and congrats on xorg 7.0
<ryanpg> daniels, with the most recent xorg stuff for dapper, subpixel aa appears to be broken with EXA http://ruinaudio.com/files/xaa-exa.png
<sebest_> anyone installed dapper on vmware? (for me /dev/sda is not created on first boot after installation completed)
<rtcm> ryanpg: the fonts look the same to me on my LCD
<ryanpg> rtcm, you mean in my screenshot? or are you saying "works for me"?
<ryanpg> in the screenshot the fonts on the left (with EXA) are greyscale, the fonts on the left (XAA) are subpixel
<ogra> ryanpg, thats more likely a fontconfig prob than a X prob ...
<ryanpg> ogra, but fontconfig doesn't change
<ryanpg> if I simply comment out the EXA line in xorg.conf fonts work again
<slomo> gn8 everybody
<ogra> ryanpg, exactly, fontconfig wasnt updated yet :)
<ogra> night slomo 
<ryanpg> ogra, well though I don't think you're right it's a good enough guess for me :P
<ryanpg> someone in #xorg pointed out the toolbar is subpixel aa'd up to "Tools"
<ryanpg> on the left half of the screenshot, Search is subpixel AA while Tools is greyscale... how weird eh?
<ryanpg> here's a better shot of what's going on http://ruinaudio.com/files/exa-subpixel-not.png
<jdub> ryanpg: compare the E in edit to the S in search, then look at the T in Tools and D in Documents
<ryanpg> jdub, yes but what am I looking for?
<jdub> ryanpg: you're basing your 'not subpixel' analysis on the prevalence of non-vertical/non-horizontal lines
<ryanpg> no look closer
<ryanpg> compare the e in search to the e in documents for example
<crimsun> they look identical here
<ryanpg> what?
<crimsun> your cited example
<ryanpg> I don't think you guys are looking close enough... I'll zoom in more
<ryanpg> it's abundantly clear to me somehow
<ryanpg> http://ruinaudio.com/files/big-exa-subpixel-not.png
<jdub> regardless, this might not be the most useful place to raise your concerns
<ryanpg> I dunno, I though daniels would like to know... anyway I'm in the process of filing a bug
<ryanpg> but you can see now yes?
<lifeless> I did not think X had anything to do with it.
* ryanpg hopes hes not going insane
<ryanpg> it's about EXA vs XAA, xaa renders subpixel aa fine, exa has the bug
<jdub> exa is very much a "join the queue of bug reporters upstream" thing atm
<ryanpg> well a bug has been filed
* jsgotangco fires up metallica for the day ahead
<sfeehan> sebest_, there was a thread about this on the ubuntu-devel list: http://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel/2005-December/013605.html
<eruin> E: /var/cache/apt/archives/locales_2.3.7-1_all.deb: prver  skrive over /usr/share/i18n/locales/en_AU, som ogs finnes i pakken language-pack-en-base
<Amaranth> Riddell: You said you had kubuntu dapper working on a ppc, right?
<SEJeff> Is updating x going to bork right now?
<SEJeff> on dapper
<Amaranth> I think he went to find out.
<xhaker> BenC, if you're there.. somehow vga=*** works on normal boot, but not on recovery boot (single)
<BenC> that's probably because vesafb isn't being loaded by usplash on recovery boot
<BenC> modprobe vesafb
<xhaker> BenC, blind?
<xhaker> the screen is blank
<xhaker> i can type tho.. but cannot see what
<BenC> no idea what that is
<xhaker> BenC, me neither, pretty confusing
<xhaker> well, one thing is good, using the normal fb works great on my laptop without loosing lines
<xhaker> BenC, sorry to bother you again.. noticed an error on my boot.. the first thing that's outputed to the screen
<xhaker> is this: error ports already open /dev/hdc
<xhaker> might have something to do with my cdrom drive not working
<lamont> grumble.
<lamont> ECHAN
<BenC> xhaker: it's an ide-generic load issue, there's already a bug on udev for it
<BenC> xhaker: you can blacklist ide-generic to fix it
<xhaker> BenC,  thank you
<xhaker> argh :/
<xhaker> BenC, blacklisted ide-generic both on hotplug/blacklist.d and on modprode.d/blacklist
<xhaker> still the same
<eruin> dri-enabled fglrx doesn't lock my system until i try playing sound.. I wonder how that's related
<JaneW> Could those that have their status updates already prepared please send them to me before the meeting so that I can start on the report. Thanks.
<lucas> hi
<zakame> hey lucas :D
<dholbach> hellas
<dholbach> hey carstenh, how are you?
<carstenh> dholbach: hi daniel, fine. i hope you too :)
<dholbach> yeah, i'm in Trier now ;)
<carstenh> hmm, i will leave it i a few hours. :/
<carstenh> bad timing...
<Pupeno> Hello.
<Pupeno> Is Linux on Dapper compiled for real-time scheduling ?
<pitti> mvo: ping
<mvo> pitti: pong
<ogra> hmm, extremly strange .... obby did build on first attempt at 5:40 UTC, but gets rebuilt every 2h ???
<\sh> ogra: umh??
<ogra> according to http://tiber.tauware.de/cgi-bin/buildlogs.cgi
<\sh> ogra: i don't even see a -changes mail 
<ogra> the first build attempt was ~5:00 UTC and built on all arches
<ogra> there was none ...
<ogra> thats the other strange thing 
<\sh> ogra: there is one 
<\sh> ogra: auto-changes
<ogra> ah
<ogra> great 
<ejofee> ok. so this chan is not for support (even with dapper). then there's #ubuntu for general discussion. there's even #ubuntu-motu for getting involved in development... then what on earth is #ubuntu-devel for?! :P
<ogra> \sh, but it needs NEWing ... pkern puts the version number in the binary name :/
<ogra> so i still have to wait with my gobby upload ...
<siretart> ejofee: for the development of ubuntu, espc. the 'main' section
<\sh> ogra: and from seeing this http://people.ubuntu.com/~lamont/buildLogs/byDate/today.html obby is in given back state
<ejofee> siretart: i see. thanks.
<ogra> \sh, very strange ... since it already built ... something must be broken 
<\sh> ogra: I don't see a successfull build...
<\sh> ogra: since 2005-12-20 there is no successful build of obby...all failed and given back
<ogra> hmm, the buildlog script on tiber doesnt respect given-back ... my fault :/
<ogra> so i was right :-D
<ogra> something was broken :)
<\sh> ogra: fix it :)
<siretart> hey, X11R7 now officially released. great! :D
<ogra> \sh, i will
<\sh> elmo: please sync songwrite and opencv from unstable, dropping ubuntu changes thx
<pitti> why do we have irssi in desktop???
<Burglaptop> pitti: because if you bork your xorg.conf, it makes it really nice to be able to log in to #ubuntu and figure out why you borked it
<pitti> hah, as if any novice could cope with it
<pitti> well, but I see the point
<Burglaptop> pitti: it is of particular security concern?
<mvo> Burglaptop: is this the "official" reason for it?
<pitti> Burglaptop: no, I just wondered why dist-upgrade wanted to install it
<pitti> and it's another > 1MB package on the CD
<\sh> because irssi is da hit :)
<Burglaptop> mvo: no, but I it is a good use case
<pitti> don't waste CD space with such stuff...
<Burglaptop> mvo: make that, I think it is a good use case
<mvo> Burglaptop: it's a bit artifical IMHO. I mean, people able to use irssi will have no problem with typing "apt-get install irssi" 
<mvo> so I'm still wondering about it 
<Burglaptop> mvo: possibly true
<StevenK> You're making assumptions about irssi users.
<Riddell_> Amaranth: yes, I have dapper on a powerpc
<Burglaptop> mvo, pitti I would raise the issue on ubuntu-devel and see what other feedback we could get
<pitti> that sounds good
<pitti> maybe we find a small IRC client my mother could actually use :)
<StevenK> xchat-tiny
<seb128> imho irssi should not be on the desktop
<seb128> that's duplication
<mvo> I know that my gf would run away screeming when faced with one of them
<StevenK> It links with nothing, so it uses nothing. :-P
<mvo> (text-mode irc client that is :)
<seb128> and place on the CD is not cheap :)
<seb128> who listed irssi for desktop?
<mvo> we should check the seeds file
* pitti checks
<pitti> uh, it's there since ages
<pitti> bzr annotate:
<pitti>     1 cjwatso |
<seb128> yeah, was going to say that
<seb128> pitti: speaking of IRC, dunno if you read on -desktop but xchat-gnome can be considered for promotion now :)
<seb128> (no hurry can wait next year)
<pitti> seb128: I read it, yes
<pitti> seb128: can you have separate windows now?
<ogra> eek, we really go for xchat-gnome ? 
<seb128> k, because you didn't reply to anything I said this morning :)
<pitti> seb128: yes, sorry, I booted a lot for kernel security update testing
<seb128> ogra: mdz said we want to consider yet, so we switch
<ogra> *shudder*
<seb128> pitti: np, do you feel better today? :)
<seb128> s/yet/it/
<seb128> pitti: no
<pitti> seb128: yes, considerably, thanks :)
<seb128> (no separate windows)
<pitti> seb128: that sucks
<seb128> but I've filled it upstream
<seb128> I've filled the chan list position, it got rejected
<ogra> and no possibility to change the layout, enable longer scrollbacks or sane topic handling either i guess
<seb128> saying that the sort of settings that clutter the UI and is not useful, you get used to the position quickly (which I agree with)
<seb128> the use list is a button now
<seb128> s/use/user
<seb128> away is set by dbus with gnome-screensaver by example, it uses libnotify, etc ...  :)
<mvo|xchat-gnome> I'm not sure a button scales 
<seb128> mvo|xchat-gnome: why?
<seb128> longer scrollback? it uses the same setting as xchat
<mvo|xchat-gnome> the list is _huge_
<ogra> yes, it has some very good fetures, but they dont weight out the drawbacks imho
<seb128> what do you call "sane topic"?
<ogra> seb128, i can adjust it in xchat
<seb128> mvo|xchat-gnome: good reason to have a drop-down stuff and not it open all the time
<ogra> i have it set to 1000 lines, so i can read the last night without having logging on 
<seb128> ogra: alt-t, or use the menu
<seb128> for the topic
<mvo|xchat-gnome> it is certainly a lot better than last time I looked
<seb128> xchat-gnome uses the same buffer as xchat
<mvo|xchat-gnome> don't get me wrong, I'm not against it, I'm just not sure that the button is the right control for this
<seb128> there is no UI setting for it that's all
<seb128> mvo|xchat-gnome: suggestions are welcome :)
<mvo|xchat-gnome> this is really a tricky question, I mean, I got very used to the old ui of xchat so ...
<ogra> seb128, i cant stand that i cant scroll through it quickly and that it either only shows the beginning of the topic or eats a third of the display pace 
<seb128> I don't say it's very good or whatever, but there is place for a lot of nice stuff and should be easier to get right than xchat
<ogra> *space
<dholbach> ogra: what eats a third of the space?
<seb128> mvo|xchat-gnome: yeah, change is weird ... doesn't mean it's not good. It take me some days to be used to changes from tabs, but now I like it
<seb128> ogra: how can't you scroll quickly?
<ogra> the topic handling is completely wrong imho, but thats minor and i could live with it, not being able to flip the layout and the scrollback being not adjustable will kepp me at xchat
<ogra> seb128, through the topic
<seb128> grrrr
<seb128> do you actually read what I said?
<seb128> the buffer is the same as xchat
<ogra> seb128, yes
<seb128> there is just no UI atm
<seb128> if you have it set it'll stay the same
<mvo|xchat-gnome> ok, I buy it. where can I get a breezy backport for my laptop :P ?
<ogra> seb128, as i aid, the topic handling is something i could bear ..
<seb128> mvo|xchat-gnome: universe has it for some time :)
<dholbach> mvo|xchat-gnome: ask on ubuntu-backports@ - they will have to backport libsexy too
<ogra> but the other two issues make it unusable for me, its my major working tool...
<seb128> ogra: I'm not speaking about topic but number of lines at screen
<ogra> ah, scrollback ...?
<seb128> that's what I call buffer
<ogra> ok, one issue solved 
<seb128> topic is topic
<seb128> the user list position is just the kind of stuff you find weird for a day
<ogra> so now i need a gconf key to flip the layout and i'll be half way happy :)
<seb128> and get used to pretty quickly
<ogra> i just want it on the right side, its totally distrating on the left, idont care about the design or that the channel win is above it etc... 
<ogra> a gconf keya to be able to flip userlist/chatwindow would suffice ...
<ogra> i tested longer than a day
<seb128> it'll not change
<seb128> it has been rejected by upstream
<ogra> sad, so i'll stay with xchat ...
<seb128> stay with whatever you want
<seb128> we will switch it for desktop anyway :)
<ogra> sure ... i wont be abe to do anything about it ...
<Burglaptop> seb128: does xchat-gnome need to conflict with xchat?
<seb128> but you will drop a lot of cool stuff for a left/right position ...
<seb128> Burglaptop: it's fixed since 0.8, need to update xchat
<ogra> but as i said, its one of my major working tools, so i want it not to annoy me ... i use it >10h a day ...
<seb128> for next upload
<seb128> ogra: that's just weird that you can't focus on a text area that takes most of the screen
<seb128> or can't get used to a list to left or right
<seb128> you don't have one once of flexibility, a shame for you :)
<Burglaptop> seb128: I suspect that once they don't conflict and people can use them side by side, there might be more converts
<ogra> seb128, the big white bar is distracting on the left 
<ogra> seb128, yes, i'm a bonehead  :)
<ogra> seb128, look at pitti, he has probs if he doesnt have his perfect screen layout ... thats how we germans are :P
<pitti> well, not being able to read two channels at once is nowhere near 'perfect layout' :)
<pitti> the xchat layout sucks as well, but at least I can have two channels side by side
<seb128> I agree that's a valid usecase
<seb128> and they have not rejected the bug
<pitti> so let's hope ;)
<dholbach> strange, why don't replies to malone mails show up on the bug? hmhmhm
<seb128> the "let's have an option to move every UI part to left/right" is not worth an option
<ogra> another thing is that i like to know how many people are in a channel, there seems to be no option to show that in the status bar ...
<seb128> dholbach: because malone sucks still? :p
<dholbach> hmhmrmhrmhrmhrmh
<seb128> like it was something useful
<seb128> who cares if there is  80 or 90 users in the chan?
<seb128> and that's probably trivial to write a plugin for it
<ogra> seb128, for the channels i maintain it is something useful ... and for a statistic freak like me anyway :P
<seb128> write a plugin
* dholbach is glad with the way it is
<seb128> a few lines of python should do the trick
<ogra> that would imply i use the program :)
<seb128> stop complaining for complaining
<seb128> I'm happy to forward valid griefs like pitti's one upstream, but that is crap
<seb128> if you need to special stat stuff just do a plugin or use another software
<seb128> that's not something desktop users will look for to start
<ogra> i agree that i'm not the typical desktop user sitting in front of a chat window more than 10h a day ...
<Burglaptop> pitti: you made LWN
<pitti> oh?
<Burglaptop> Martin Pitt looks at locales restructuring and why a dist-upgrade might break. He also explains why this isn't a bug.
<ogra> heh
<mvo> they like our mails to u-d-a :)
<slomo_> elmo: please sync service-discovery-applet from debian... ubuntu changes can be dropped
<pitti> doesn't lwn have anything more interesting to report than transitions in development releases?
<ogra> mvo, you should have announced the dbus transition, so you'd be on there as well :)
<pitti> Burglaptop: I didn't explain why it isn't a bug; I explained why I won't fix it
<Burglaptop> pitti: lwn tries to report just about everything they can
<pitti> of course it is a bug, but it's not worth fixing it
<mvo> ogra: haha, I should fish a bit for fame you mean?
<ogra> it only occurs between two flight CDs 
<mvo> I suppose it's the kind of news that is easy enough to get and add
<ogra> mvo, yeah ...
* mvo considers writing a happy christmas mail to u-d-a :P
<ogra> lol
* mvo really hopes noone takes him serious
<\sh> mvo: do it :) 
<\sh> elmo: please sync libgettext-ruby , libgtk-trayicon-ruby , libopengl-ruby , ruby-gnome2 from unstable, dropping ubuntu changes thx
<fabbione> doko: ping?
<janimo> who is handling main uploader rights enabling? I have a ticket in rt.canonical since last Wed
<fabbione> janimo: elmo
<doko> fabbione: pong
<fabbione> doko: OOo2 is FTBFS on ppc
<fabbione> dunno if you noticed
<doko> fabbione: yes, seen, but I don't understand the reason ...
<fabbione> neither do i.. i am going to wait an ubuntu2 before trying on sparc
<fabbione> since i was expecting it this morning :)
<HiddenWolf> seb128, lol, who picked those gst-plugin-good/ugly package names?
<seb128> upstream
<HiddenWolf> seb128, will we have an 'ugly; too? ;)
<seb128> that's the upstream name for the different tarball for it
<seb128> we already have?
<seb128> no?
* HiddenWolf checks
<HiddenWolf> seb128, nothing with ugly in the package name according to packages.u.c
<seb128> it has not built yet
<seb128> I though you were reading -changes from today
<seb128> what was the comment about? where did you notice the names?
<HiddenWolf> hm, I read changes. :)
<HiddenWolf> ah, yes, sorry
<seb128> you asked who picked the ugly package name
<slomo_> HiddenWolf: we will get one with an even worse name later... plugins-ugly-multiverse ;)
* HiddenWolf waits for plugins-bad. :)
<seb128> and then you say there is no such package ...
<HiddenWolf> seb128, I was confused. 
<seb128> bad is not coming soon
<slomo_> HiddenWolf: and plugins-bad are the broken plugins ;)
<seb128> that's bugged code
<HiddenWolf> seb128, it's just the humor of having packages refer to the movie.
<HiddenWolf> The good, the bad, the ugly
<Treenaks> HiddenWolf: upstream names, too :)
<mvo> anyone else having problems with launchpad.net? or is it just me?
<dholbach> mvo: problems like what?
<mvo> dholbach: like not geting anything but a white screen
<dholbach> hm, looks fine for me
* mvo kicks his browser
<pitti> fabbione: yay, all kernels have built
<fabbione> pitti: no! really????
<pitti> fabbione: erm, why so surprised?
<mvo> dholbach: works fine now after I restarted ff
<fabbione> see.. that's why i get to have pre-test kernels :)
<mhz> ogra: hi
<pitti> fabbione: oh, I wasn't surprised *that* they built, just stated that they are ready for release now :)
<mhz> ogra: i won't be able to  on for about 6 or 7 hours today, sorry.
<ogra> mhz, no problem ...
<fabbione> pitti: GO AHEAD! UNLEASH THE BEASTS! MAKE THE WORLD SUFFER IN HORRIBLE PAIN!
<mjg59> Riddell: Yo
<Riddell> mjg59: presumably HAL handles all the tricky hardware stuff and it just needs a fairly simple frontend on top
<mjg59> Riddell: Basically, the reason to do it via HAL is because we get (a) a uniform mechanism, and (b) only the foreground user will be able to change the hardware state
<Riddell> and gnome-power-manager uses this now?
<BenC> how can I get the automated merge bugs to stop for a particular package?
<mjg59> Riddell: g-p-m uses this now, but doesn't get the benefit of (b) until I write the dbus patch
<fabbione> BenC: close the bug?
<mjg59> Basically, you need something on the KDE side that sends a dbus signal requesting a suspend or hibernate
<BenC> fabbione: but new ones keep getting reopened
<fabbione> BenC: is that kernel-package?
<BenC> yeah
<fabbione> if so just assign it debzilla..
<mjg59> Riddell: Then that needs to tie in to the kcontrol panel where users can choose what happens when the close the lid and so on
<fabbione> make it owned by nobody :)
<BenC> ok :)
<fabbione> and it will stop spamming you
<mjg59> Riddell: That's enough for now, but in the long run it should also get information about whether a sleep button exists, whether the hardware supports suspend and so on from HAL as well
<janimo> mjg59, so this will replace calling pmi actions from gdm?
<mjg59> janimo: Yes
<janimo> cool
<Riddell> mjg59: doesn't sound too difficult to do, I doubt I have time but I'll try and poke some people in the right direction
<mjg59> Riddell: Rocking
<janimo> mjg59, does this power manager daemon dep only on hal/dbus or does it grow gnomedeps like vfs and bonobo?
<janimo> it'd be nice to integrate with xfce too
<janimo> I see it depends on some gnome stuff but don't know how essential it is
<ogra> janimo, should be possible to rip out ...
<janimo> ogra, I'd like to rip it out cleanly so it's not a fork if possible
<ogra> janimo, talk to hughsie in #hal :)
<hno73> does anyone know if gfxboot will have support for mouse when the user selects a language?
<ogra> he is upstream 
<jbailey> Why is my dist-upgrade bringing in irssi?
<janimo> ogra, thanks noted
<ogra> jbailey, you removed it ? 
<zul> jbailey: because irssi core dumps and its apart of main i think
<jbailey> ogra: I have never had it installed.
<ogra> jbailey, it has been in the desktop seed since ... ever ? 
<jbailey> Weird.  
<Amaranth> hrm, someone said my name, but way past my scrollback
<sivang> weird. Does anybody know about firefox popup that comes on without any apparent reason and asks to confirm an SSL certificate for *.mozilla.org even when not connecting there?
<jbailey> ogra: irssi-text is, but not irssi from the looks of it.
<sivang> when approved, firefox says somethign about connecting to somwehre not remotely related to moz.org
<Amaranth> sivang: it's probably trying to check for updates
<zakame> sivang: I've seen that in firefox under windows
<ogra> jbailey, ah... 
<mjg59> janimo: The daemon side of things would still be managed by KDE, it would just use HAL to get information about the system
* sivang is afraid his being bitten by a warm or some wtf..
<mjg59> And to do the actual state transitions
<mjg59> janimo: Or are you thinking about from an xfce point of view?
<janimo> mjg59, I am thinking xfce now
<janimo> and was thinkoing how much of g-p-m uses gnome libs
<janimo> some of the apps in ubuntu use gnome while they could with a bit of effort get away with plian gtk
<janimo> but I'll check it out once is working nicely in ubuntu
<Riddell> at about announing to u-d-a for lwn fame
<Riddell> ogra: what was that about announing to u-d-a for lwn fame
<mjg59> janimo: The front-end uses gnome libs, but the backend should be fine
<pappan> how do i get the ubuntu kernel source from my linux machine
<ogra> Riddell, ubuntu-devel-announce mails are reported on linux weekly news recently :)
<ogra> so sending something there makes you a celebrity *g*
<kent_> pappan, #ubuntu for those questions - and its in the archives.
<jsgotangco> wow
<Pupeno> What schedule is compiled on Dapper's Linux ?
<pitti> crimsun_: ping
<sivang> Amaranth: have you also seen that on your system?
<Amaranth> sivang: nope
<zakame> Pupeno: er you mean scheduler?
<Pupeno> zakame: yes.
<zakame> Pupeno: hm I see all 4 (or 5) in breezy, I myself am currently using cfq
<sivang> zakame: let me know if you encounter that on Ubuntu as well
<zakame> sivang: sure, I'm all yours :)
<Pupeno> zakame: in breezy ? how ? breezy uses 2.6.12 and the possibility to choose different scheduler was added on 2.6.13, furthermore I believe there are only 3 schedulers, are we talking about different things ? where do you 'see' them ?
<zakame> sivang: though on windows I encountered that with fx 1.0.2
<zakame> Pupeno: err, at `dmesg | pager`?
<zakame> Pupeno: I set my preferred scheduler at the bootparams, e.g. `elevator=cfq'
* sivang wonders why he's subscribed to u-d-a and appears to not be recieving email from there..
<Pupeno> zakame: dmesg | grep 'cfq' shows me nothing, am I missing something ?
<zakame> Pupeno: grep 'scheduler'
<Nafallo> grep scheduler /var/log/dmesg
<sivang> zakame: thx :)
<Pupeno> Nafallo: nothing either.
<Pupeno> are you runninig 6.2.12 ?
<Pupeno> oh, on another box the schedulers appear.
<zakame> Pupeno: we seem to have noop anticipatory deadline and cfq
<zakame> Pupeno: 6.2? not yet
<zakame> 2.6 is
<Pupeno> er 2.6 I mean.
<Pupeno> have the schedulers patch been backported to 2.6.12 by Debian/Ubuntu devs ?
<Amaranth> man, i bet in 6.2 my music still skips when i copy a large file
<zakame> Amaranth: hrhr
<Pupeno> which one is the scheduler for low lattency then ? cfq ?
<zakame> cfq's good for desktops, deadline and noop for dbservers i think
<Pupeno> zakame: I need the scheduler that can deliver very low latency (<3ms) for audio.
<zakame> Pupeno: for that you should also explore realtime-lsm, maybe even jack
<zakame> schedulers alone won't be a factor
<Pupeno> zakame: I am working on both of them, but they are complementary.
<Pupeno> I have seted realtime-lsm before and I have run jackd before, I am only missing a Linux with low latency.
<Pupeno> Let's see.
<zakame> Pupeno: rock on then :)
<zakame> elmo: hi, please sync gpdf from Sid, overriding Ubuntu changes ok.  Thanks, and Happy Holidays! :)
<psusi> I don't like the io schedulers because they screw up the ordering and lower throughput when I mess around with multiple overlapped O_DIRECT async IO requests to see how fast I can push my drives ;)
<frans-th> hwhere is hmb? i need it
<frans-th> need him
<johnl> hi, libsane-extras in dapper universe relies on libsane 1.0.17, but dapper only has libsane 1.0.16   how can that be?
<seb128> johnl: if the package is not modifed sync are done automatically from Debian, maybe the first is unmodified but not the second
<johnl> ah ic
<johnl> is that a bug that I need to report then?  even though universe isn't supported
<seb128> libsane with be updated, there is probably already a bug about that
<seb128> there is automatic bugs for packages that need to be synced from Debian
<johnl> ok.  thanks.
<seb128> np
<aroman> Hi
<aroman> I'm trying to install kUbuntu-dapper-flight2... any way to tell it NOT to load firewire modules?
<aroman> because if it loads firewire, IRQ11 gets disabled for me (toshiba laptop), so I can't use network at all...
<aroman> what type of filesystem does initrd.gz use?
<aroman> :/
<aroman> cramfs? it's not ext2 or ext3, since I can't mount it...
<siretart> aroman: which initrd? the new ones from breezy/dapper created by initramfs?
<aroman> dapper
<siretart> aroman: those new style initrd are just compressed cpio archives
<siretart> extract them with cpio
<aroman> hmm... so, how would I go about modifying them?
<siretart> extracting and recreating them
<aroman> siretart: any special options when I re-create the archive and the .gz?
<siretart> I think its just a compressed cpio archive, if in doubt, consider looking at the source of initramfs-tools
<aroman> oy... now that dapper's moving away from hotplug, how can I preven a module from being loaded?
<siretart> aroman: using the keyword 'blacklist' in /etc/modprobe.d/*
<siretart> there should be some examples in that dir
<aroman> ok thank you
<aroman> um ok... I didn't ask the right question...sorry
<aroman> I mean, in the initrd.gz root filesystem?
<aroman> same procedure? because there is no /etc/modprobe.d
<aroman> hmm... I could just remove the actual modules from /lib/modules... since I don't even use them
<siretart> aroman: how can you have no /etc/modprobe.d/*?!
<siretart> aroman: in the new world oder you rather configure modprobe than the thingy loading the modules (read: udev)
<siretart> regarding to avoid loading modules
<aroman> siretart: look, the initrd.gz contained in the latest netboot.tar.gz has no /etc/modprobe.d/*
<siretart> aroman: oh, I was rather talking about the installed system, not inside the initramfs
<aroman> siretart: well, my problem is that I don't get network unless I disable firewire (if firewire gets loaded, I get IRQ 11 getting disabled)
<aroman> and if I don't get network, I can't install :(
<aroman> and my initrd.gz doesn't work :( my laptop just hangs... 
<siretart> ah, I see
<siretart> so, you need a special initramfs anyway. I think it would be indeed most practicable to just delete the firefire modules from the initramfs
<aroman> ok I've looked at initramfs_tools source and got the exact command that creates the initrd.gz
<aroman> I get a few of these kind of errors though:
<aroman> cpio: ./sbin/blockdev: No such file or directory
<aroman> and /sbin/blockdev is an invalid symlink to /bin/busybox
<aroman> as are all the others
<aroman> harmless?
<siretart> sorry, I'm not that familar with initramfs, too
<aroman> and why the heck is my intrd coming up as 283MB?! :S
<aroman> when du -hs prints 15MB for the uncompressed stuff? :/
<aroman> ok... got it working
<aroman> goodie.... it doesn't recognize my network card :(
<aroman> curses
<thesaltydog>  is malone now for all bugs, or still just for universe?
<Am|NickTaken> universe
<mjg59> Is anyone maintaining network-manager nowadays?
<Burgwork> mjg59, network magic is keybuks domain, but I don't know if he is doing anything with it
<Burgwork> thesaltydog, eventually everything will be in malone
<seb128> Nafallo has updated nm to 0.5.1-0ubuntu5 yesterday
<mjg59> seb128: Ah, yes
<_xhaker> hello all :)
<Burgwork> mjg59, you want http://bugzilla.ubuntu.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1403
<xhaker> BenC, sorry for misreporting that blacklisting ide-generic didn't make this able to detect my dvd drive.. it does.. just forgot to update-initramfs, i have to modprobe ide-disk everytime i boot tho
<BenC> ok, that's all a udev issue
<xhaker> true
<xhaker> that's why i messed up earlier.. blacklisting is kinda different
<mjg59> Burgwork: I've got it
<mjg59> That was its behaviour in breezy, though - I'm not sure why it would have changed in dapper
<Burgwork> mjg59, "that was its behaviour" - you mean pressing the button brought up the logout dialog?
<mjg59> No
<mjg59> Shutting down the machine
<mjg59> It's never done anything else
<Burgwork> that is bug, IMHO
<mjg59> It's something that gets fixed with the move to the new configuration stuff, so I'm fairly unconcerned righ tnow
<Burgwork> ah, ok
<thesaltydog> Burgwork, does it mean that main bugs are still in bugzilla at the moment?
<mjg59> pitti: What's the best way to ship a small suid binary with dbus?
<pitti> mjg59: 'way' -> packaging?
<mjg59> pitti: Yes
<thesaltydog> is italian firefox localization in dapper a known bug? It won't upgrade from breezy..
<mjg59> pitti: is messagebus an allocated user, or a dynamic one?
<pitti> mjg59: it's a system user (> 100)
<pitti> mjg59: i. e. ship with 0755, chmod in postinst
<mjg59> pitti: Ok
<pitti> mjg59: after the adduser
<mjg59> pitti: And chown?
<pitti> yes, of course
<mjg59> No problem
<pitti> 4754, I assume?
<mjg59> Yeah
<Burgwork> thesaltydog, yes
<Burgwork> thesaltydog, to the bugzilla question
<pitti> mjg59: oh, are you going to upload dbus soon?
<thesaltydog> ok.. thanks.
<pitti> mjg59: if so, could you please do me a favor?
<mjg59> pitti: Wasn't planning on it - I was going to send a diff to mvo
<pitti> ah, ok
<pitti> I'd like to have a small improvement of the dbus-1-utils package description
<mjg59> But I guess I could later on - what do you want doing?
<mjg59> Ah, ok
<pitti> but it's not worth a separate upload
<seb128> if somebody does an upload, today's fix by mvo is wrong
<mjg59> pitti: What I've done for now is basically to change the at_console policy to check for /var/foo/bar/username:vt
<mjg59> pitti: Then I'll probably just add a small pam module (or alternatively hack pam_console) to create that
<crimsun_> pitti: pong, just got in and read e-mail. Checking.
<pitti> hi daniels 
<daniels> good morning captain
* mvo waves to daniels 
<daniels> morning all
<dholbach> hellas daniels :)
<seb128> hi daniels
<dholbach> hi seb128 :)
<seb128> hey dholbach
<Pygi> hello all ;)
<pitti> hi Pygi 
<pitti> hi lamont__ 
<Pygi> ho, BenC, fixed any new bugs lately? ;)
<BenC> yeah, but it never seems like there's any less bugs than when I started :)
<Pygi> BenC: well, I suppose you got used to it after all that time smashing bugs ;)
<Pygi> As what is most bad, is if you create a patch for the bug which then produces two or three new bugs ;)
<Pygi> now, that's bad ;)
<TheMuso> Merry Christmas to you. Hope you have an enjoyable Christmas where ever
<dholbach> good night everybody
<dholbach> themuso: you too :)
<Pygi> night
<lamont__> pitti: hi
<floam> what the fuck
<floam> I thought the input garbage was all fixed for RC4
* floam bugs xorg people
<Pygi> floam: please don't use that kind of words in here ;) thank you ;)
<floam> yeah, I appolgize. I was perturbed for about 15 seconds, since I was expecting it to all magically be fixe
<floam> fixed
<daniels> it's supposed to be, but boy am I motivated to fix any potential problems now
<floam> :)
<floam> s/app/ap/
<seb128> daniels: like making it fast without the cairo workaround? :)
<daniels> seb128: we're working on it
<seb128> cool
<mvo> seb128: cairo workaound? 
<daniels> mvo: basically, nautilus backgrounds are screwed
<floam> the mouse buttons are no longer swapped, but gnome-settings-daemon still freaks out if I'm using evdev
<daniels> if cairo does the compositing client-side, it's normal speed
<daniels> if X does it, it's arse-slow, and all done in software
<seb128> floam: buttons mouse issue is fixed
<irvin> hello all
<floam> seb128: yeah, I notice
<mvo> daniels: ah, thanks. I remeber now :)
<floam> I wonder why gsd crashes
<floam> seems to be klavier
<seb128> floam: it's xkeyboard-config bog
<seb128> floam: gconftool-2 -R /desktop/gnome/peripherals/keyboard/kbd
<daniels> if klavier crashes, 'tis klavier bug, for sucking at error handling :P
<floam> I didn't know what it was. It seemed to be in a function with klavier in it's name
<seb128> quite true
<floam> seb128: what will that do?
<seb128> print your config
<seb128> so you can copy it
<seb128> and I can blame xorg :p
<floam> do you want it?
<seb128> yep
<floam>  layouts = [] 
<floam>  model =
<floam>  options = [grp_led     grp_led:scroll,eurosign eurosign:5,Compose key  compose:ralt] 
<floam>  overrideSettings = true
<daniels> so don't have an empty layouts list
<seb128> no layouts, hum
<floam> I didn't empty it
<seb128> how did you do this?
<daniels> or an empty model
<floam> I didn't empty anything
<floam> this is all vanilla ubuntu I havn't touched gconf in that area
<daniels> seb128: so much for blaming xorg, I guess
<daniels> dude, it is *not* vanilla
<floam> as in unaltered
<daniels> i can give you an absolutely ironclad guarantee that we do *not* set up compose:ralt, or grp_led:scroll
<floam> of course it's dapper and unsafe and etc.
<daniels> i don't think we set up eurosign:5 either
<daniels> so you have altered the keyboard preferences
<floam> daniels: that's just something I did through the GUI
<floam> I never unset anything
<seb128> floam: for sure you touched the keyboard capplet
<floam> yes
<daniels> ...
<seb128> what layout it selected from it?
<floam> but that applet shouldn't allow me to totally destroy things, idealy :P
<seb128> it doesn't
<seb128> I can't delete the unique layout here
<floam> Keyboard &model: Generic 104-key PC
<floam> and the layout in the list is U.S. English
<floam> it has no checkmark next to it in the Default column
<floam> it's the only one so that shouldn't matter
<seb128> hum, right
<seb128> options are ok
<floam> hm
<floam> I touched everything, now
<floam>  layouts = [us] 
<floam>  model = pc105
<floam>  options = [grp grp:alts_toggle] 
<floam>  overrideSettings = true
<floam> gsd still crashes though
<daniels> what happens when you do setxkbmap -model pc105 -layout us -option grp:alts_toggle?
<seb128> that will work
<floam> it seems to work
<seb128> setxkbmap -model pc105 -layout us -option grp:alts_toggle  -print | xkbcomp - :0.0
<seb128> what about that?
<floam> many warnings
<seb128> that's all?
<floam> yes
<daniels> if it's about keys not having symbols, that's fine
<floam> Warning:          No symbols defined for <I6F> (keycode 239)
<seb128> so it should not crash with that config
<seb128> are you sure g-s-d still crash?
<floam> bunch of that/
<floam> s/\//./
<seb128> daniels: https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+source/xorg/+bug/5740 is still buggy 
<daniels> seb128: of course it's still buggy, it has an empty layout list ;)
<daniels> i tried to comment on it, but malone didn't let me, and then I forgot about it
<daniels> seb128: but yeah.  layout and model are compulsory.  only option and variant are optional.
<daniels> (no pun intended.)
<seb128> good point
<daniels> -> breakfast
<seb128> enjoy
<floam> seb128: how are you so sure the issue is with the keyboard stuff? It works fine if I'm using the old mouse driver
<floam> it only breaks when I'm using evdev for my mouse
<floam> (where works fine means gsd doesn't crash, it still sucks because of it using mousedev)
<seb128> oh
<seb128> nop, I think it's not an xkb issue
<floam> hmm
<seb128> since the setxkbmap works fine
<seb128> dunno what this evdev is though
<floam> seb128: input driver that uses /dev/input/event*
<floam> it supports many mouse buttons and tiltwheels and all the fancy new stuff
<floam> among other things, it's also not specific to mice, it's for input devices of all sorts
<floam> some people use it for their keyboards also
<seb128> you could try running g-s-d with XKL_DEBUG=500 set
<seb128> and not on what it chockes
<floam> not on?
<seb128> ?
<seb128> what on?
<floam> "and not on what it chokes"
<floam> I'm not sure what you want me to not do :P
<seb128> "note"
<seb128> typo
<floam> oh
<floam> the last thing before it crashes is:
<floam> [1135290899,150,xklavier.c:_XklGetAppState/]     Appwin 280001a, 'floam@amnesiac: ~' has the group 0, indicators 0
<floam> [1135290899,160,xklavier.c:_XklLoadWindowTree/]          initial _xklCurClient: 280001a, 'floam@amnesiac: ~' with state 0/0
<floam> which doesn't seem special
<floam> The error was 'BadValue (integer parameter out of range for operation)'.
<floam>   (Details: serial 1009 error_code 2 request_code 116 minor_code 0)
<seb128> ah
<seb128> that is an xorg bug somewhere probably
<lifeless> meh
<lifeless> seb128: have upstream gone in sane ?
<lifeless> This message cannot be sent because the account you chose to send with is not enabled
<floam> and: lavier.c:XklStartListen/]      The backend does not require manual layout management - but it is provided by the application
<lifeless> ^ evolution bitching when I try to send from robertc@squid-cache.org
<seb128> lifeless: activate the account, I don't really get why they did that
<lifeless> seb128: but it cannot 'recieve' mail at all, ever
<seb128> yeah, select "none" as account type
<lifeless> ok
* mvo goes to bed now
<lifeless> seb128: thanks
<seb128> np
<lifeless> seb128: they must have a reason. I'd *love* a direct way to say 'I can send as FOO, but use my normal account details for everything else with the possible exception of gpg settings'
<seb128> yeah, multiple email for one one reception account would be nice
<lifeless> I'd also like a way to say 'receieve mai from this source, but it has no outbound details'
<seb128> I've one IMAP server configured and a bunch of dummy accounts for that
<lifeless> yeah
<lifeless> me too, its frustrating
<Burglaptop> lifeless, seb128: are either of you bugged by the fact that evo forwards as an attachment?
<seb128> I almost never forward stuff so no
<Burglaptop> are there any other mail clients out there that do that?
<HrdwrBoB> er
<HrdwrBoB> by default it does
<HrdwrBoB> you can forward as whatever you like
<HrdwrBoB> er... or at least in  a previous version you could
<Burglaptop> HrdwrBoB: a)  I think it is a stupid default b) there is no way to set it globally (ie, I always want to forward as A or B)
<HrdwrBoB> I agree
<HrdwrBoB> though people constantly piss me off by forwarding in outlook which eats the headers
<HrdwrBoB> and expect me to be able to debug their email problems with message content
<Burglaptop> it is interesting how bad outlook is a client
<Lathiat> HrdwrBoB: i also love it when it doesnt send the email 
<Lathiat> HrdwrBoB: like you forward a message adn its From: <blah> with no email address
<Burglaptop> there is a mailing list I follow that has a lot of windows users on it. Outlook breaks the threads constantly
<Lathiat> Burglaptop: yeh i hate that
<Burglaptop> the archives are also a total mess, because of the thread breaking
<Burglaptop> hmm, http://www.koffice.org/competition/guiKOffice2.php
<Burglaptop> we need an ubuntu-devel-offtopic
<irvin> hello all
<ogra> thats why we have ubuntu-devel-announce ...
<irvin> are the scripts used in packages.ubuntu.com available online?
<ogra> so all real important stuff can gi there
<Burglaptop> ogra: no a channel, not a mailing list
<ogra> irvin, mail the maintainer of p.u.c
<ogra> Burglaptop, ah, yes
<ogra> but we're all preparing for holiday anyway ... 
<irvin> thanks ogra, guess i'll have to wait for the reply
<Burglaptop> irvin: p.u.c and p.d.o are maintained by the same person
<irvin> i see
#ubuntu-devel 2005-12-28
<lifeless> Burglaptop: thats ideal.
<Burglaptop> lifeless: which is ideal?
<lifeless> Burglaptop: forwarding as attachment preserves gpg sigs.
<lifeless> but if you want to change, check the composer preferences
<ryanpg> daniels, hi there... I just wanted to drop by and let you know that building and installing xf86-video-ati-X11R7.0-6.5.7.3 gets rid of bug #21382
<pitti> good night everyone
<TerminX> is there any fix for bug 21055 (evdev breaks xkb and gnome-settings-daemon) other than not using evdev?
<daniels> ryanpg: awesome
<daniels> ryanpg: dunno wtf happened there -- must be a missing b-d on render or something.  the code didn't change a bit.
<ryanpg> daniels, yeah I don't know what happened either... so I guess I'll just close the bug I opened? or should I leave it until dapper is updated?
<daniels> ryanpg: leave it until it's fixed in the archive, I guess ;) i'll check over all the b-ds more carefully
<ryanpg> will do... I'll comment that it's fixed for me though and how
<dobwan> exit
<dobwan> .exit
<crimsun_> elmo: please sync cegui-mk2, debsums, enlightenment, tqsllib, and teg from Sid, overriding Ubuntu changes. Thanks.
<daniels> TerminX: not at this stage
<mdke> Riddell, around? I was wondering if we can get the -docs update in before xmas?
<mdke> or have people disappeared already for the holidays?
<jsgotangco> heh
<jsgotangco> don't be surprised
<mdke> jsgotangco, Riddell doesn't take holidays or sleep
<daniels> a few people have already disappeared for the holidays; most are disappearing at the end of the day today)
<floam> TerminX: not that I know of
<floam> TerminX: It's killing me too :(
<jsgotangco> -_-;
<jsgotangco> i guess he hibernates a few times
<mdke> daniels, thanks
<mdke> daniels, btw, the synaptics driver still not installed by default here, are the seeds fixed yet?
<TerminX> floam: :(
<floam> daniels: I just added a backtract to #21055, but it doesn't really look useful
<floam> backtrace, even
<daniels> mdke: no, I've been crap
<mdke> daniels, i'm sure it's not the only bug on your plate :)
<floam> plus it's probably a dupe of 20052, same issue
<TerminX> yeah, can't even use a damn GTK2 theme without starting gnome-settings-daemon and halting the process before it gets a chance to screw up
<daniels> floam: correct
<daniels> mdke: far from it
<mdke> indeed
<lguerra> Hi, 
<mdke> hi lguerra 
<lguerra> Im test Linux ubuntu 2.6.15-8-386 #1 PREEMPT Tue Dec 13 03:21:39 UTC 2005 i686 GNU/Linux and application menu dont work
<mdke> lguerra, you'll need to file a bug in bugzilla... there are not many people around right now
<lguerra> my english is too bad, im read but i dont write too much
<mdke> lguerra, it's fine :)
<lguerra> how i put a bug in bugzilla?
<lguerra> mdke
<jdub> BenC: ping
<mdke> lguerra, you go to http://bugzilla.ubuntu.com, register and then search the database for a similar bug.
<mdke> then if you don't find one, you click "New" and follow the on-screen instructions
<lguerra> ok thks
<BenC> jdub: pong
<jdub> BenC: is this what we're using for UP/SMP? http://lwn.net/Articles/163810/
<mdke> lguerra, a decent guide here https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BugReports
<lguerra> ok thks again
<BenC> jdub: no, but that code looks damn promising and much better than what I am using
<lguerra> mdke: another question
<jdub> BenC: rock!
<jdub> BenC: so hard to see what everyone's doing in kernel land :|
<BenC> it handles the complex structures, which mine doesn't (so full functions that would normally be nops on non SMP are actually take care of
<BenC> yeah
<BenC> I'll take a look at thi
<BenC> s
<BenC> it's not too late to try it
<desrt> BenC; no love with the firewire stuff :/
<Burglaptop> lguerra: shoort
<BenC> desrt: feel like compiling the ieee1394 dev code?
<desrt> BenC; can i build it using linux-headers?
<BenC> it's on kernel.org in a git repo
<BenC> yeah
<desrt> BenC; or do i have to patch the kernel proper?
<BenC> make -C /usr/src/linux-headers-2.6.15-9-686 O=`pwd`
<lguerra> anyone speak spanish? i cant how ask mi question
<BenC> or something like that
<lguerra> in english
<BenC> desrt: cd ieee1394; and then that command
<mdke> lguerra, you can try #ubuntu-es
<desrt> actually
<lguerra> nobody answer me 
* desrt pulls out the laptop and tries a few more tests first
<mdke> lguerra, they are probably asleep :)
<lguerra> jeje
<lguerra> mdke: any problem if i write in spanish the bug????
<BenC> jdub: sweet, it handles modules too!
<BenC> my module nop'ing is sort of broken
<desrt> O=...
<mdke> lguerra, i don't know if anyone will understand it, best to try english :) your english is fine
* desrt used to SUBDIRS= :)
<lguerra> ok thks
* mdke boggles in amazement at jdub's patience on sounder
<desrt> BenC; gonna first try desktop connected to laptop in target disk mode and laptop connected to FW enclosure (to rule out possibilities)
* BenC loves that PowerMac's can be booted to target mode
<desrt> as useful as it might seem for laptops it's 10x more useful for xserves
<desrt> interesting.
<desrt> desktop + target disk mode = [4399369.911000]  sdc: assuming drive cache: write through
<desrt> [4399369.911000]   sdc: [mac]  sdc1 sdc2 sdc3 sdc4 sdc5
<desrt> ++
<BenC> well, that doesn't rule out a bug in firewire
<desrt> true.  but it does rule out the possibility of a faulty host controller
<BenC> there's two different kinds of sbp2 node definitions
<BenC> yeah
<desrt> you were saying?
<desrt> (about sbp2)
<robitaille> jdub ping
<jdub> robitaille: pong
<jsgotangco> mr. fridge!
<robitaille> jdub,  did you get my email the other day about a ubuntu-qc mailing list?
<BenC> desrt: oh, just that target mode might be using one, and that your enclosure using another
<BenC> and the other is broken
<BenC> one is more rare than the other
<BenC> I have two or three bug reports like yours
<desrt> hmm
<desrt> are you firewire upstream?
<BenC> jdub: I'm seriously thinking about using this patch for the next upload, thanks
<BenC> desrt: in title only, I rarely do work on it anymore
<desrt> hmm
<jdub> robitaille: i did; i should have replied immediately to say that i was procrastinating before creating it
<desrt> macos is giving a weird error in dmesg when i plug the drive in
<BenC> could just be bad firmware
<BenC> maybe try updating that
<robitaille> jdub,  no problem.  So how long you are planning in procrastinating about it?  :)
<jdub> heh
<desrt> FireWire (OHCI) apple id 31 built-in: handleSelfIDInt - received quads == 0.  issuing bus reset
<BenC> that's just a tad ugly
<desrt> bah
<desrt> but it works.
<desrt> ok.  so enclosure works in osx :(
<jdub> robitaille: the problem is that we don't yet have a good standard for handling the rather complicated problems posed by national, language, provicial, city, locality loco team lists
<desrt> BenC; any way to find out what 'type' of sbp2 this thing is?
<jdub> robitaille: so whenever someone proposes a list that poses new problems in this scheme, i freeze up for a bit ;-)
<robitaille> jdub,  I agree.     But we do have now http://ubuntu-qc.org
<jdub> robitaille: so you'd prefer ubuntu-qc to ubuntu-ca-qc or ubuntu-quebec?
<BenC> desrt: only way I know of is to use gscanbus and check out the config rom
<jdub> robitaille: eeek
<jdub> hrm
<desrt> benc; installing
<robitaille> jdub,  ubuntu-qc seems to follow existing scheme more than the other 2
<jdub> robitaille: -qc is not a language code or top level domain code
<jsgotangco> i thought it was "quality control"
<jsgotangco> lol
<desrt> hmm
<jdub> ha ha ha
<desrt> drive works fine with ubuntu on laptop.
* desrt makes some faces
<BenC> really?
<robitaille> so ubuntu-quebec?   Maybe we would like a ubuntu-quality-control one of these days
<BenC> so one machine it works fine, and another it doesn't, same kernel?
<jsgotangco> and i thought we've about to create a bugsquad team...*sigh*
<desrt> i think so.
<desrt> well
<desrt> powerpc vs. i386
<BenC> if that's the case, then is the broken machine amd64?
<desrt> no.
<BenC> so ppc works, or is broken?
<desrt> ppc works
<desrt> desktop (686-smp) is broken
<BenC> that's an odd little bit
<BenC> do any firewire devices work?
<desrt> ya.. target disk mode worked
<desrt> also.. this very enclosure worked when it contained a harddrive (but not CD)
<BenC> so the i386 saw the ppc-target-mode?
<desrt> yes.  and i386 also saw this enclosure when it contained a harddrive
<BenC> hmm, so it's the cdrom
<desrt> but the ppc laptop in both linux and macos sees the cdrom
<BenC> wow, that's a sumper
<BenC> stumper
<desrt> quite.
<BenC> what kernel is the ppc running?
<desrt> -8
<desrt> i386 is -9
<desrt> but i386 was also broken with -8
<BenC> any chance you could bump the ppc to -9?
<desrt> well -9 is the one you downgraded back to stable tree, right?
<BenC> yeah
<desrt> that experiment was not a success :)
<desrt> considering -9 is broken and -8 works
<desrt> (but obviously downgrading wasn't the cause of brokenness)
<BenC> -8 works on the i386?
<desrt> on the ppc only
<desrt> nothing works on 386.  everything works on ppc.
<BenC> does -9 work on ppc?
<desrt> upgrading now :)
<BenC> just want to make sure, for my own sanity
<BenC> thanks
<desrt> it's pretty weird
<desrt> everything works except for the exact combination of my PC + the drive enclosure + CD-ROM drive
<desrt> all other combinations are fine
<desrt> and it appears to not depend on the kernel version
<desrt> (although i know this used to work... circa 2.6.8ish)
<desrt> neat
<desrt> i just tossed a different CD-ROM drive in there and it's working now
<desrt> so uh... uh....
* desrt shrugs emphatically
<desrt> i choose to blame either the cd-rom drive or the enclosure.....
<desrt> it probably behaves it a strange racey sort of way with the one drive
* desrt comments on the bug
<jdub> robitaille: still here?
<robitaille> jdub,  yes
<jdub> robitaille: you ok with ubuntu-quebec?
<robitaille> jdub,  yes
<robitaille> are you?
<jsgotangco> jdub, how different is the love tour from the business tour? purely advocacy?
<jdub> i'm going to settle for a few weird historical artifacts :-)
<robitaille> jdub:  let's say that our group had some problem with a name than contains both a "ca" and a "qc" together :)
<jdub> jsgotangco: yeah, non-business, loco/lug community focused, etc.
<jdub> robitaille: ha ha ha
<jdub> crazy quebecistanis!
<jsgotangco> haha
<jdub> jsgotangco: basically, i do the biz/gov stuff on the side, while the asia tour is almost exclusively about business goals :)
* jdub checks poll
<jsgotangco> jdub, right hmmmm
<jdub> jsgotangco: it's the kind of thing you and i could do in asia :)
<jsgotangco> except europe is winning heh
<jdub> (hrm, which is why the word 'advocates' should totally not be in the asia tour story on the fridge)
<jdub> north america is doing well too
<jdub> greedy!
<robitaille> jdub,  many thanks for the list
<jdub> what most voters don't know is that the next tour will indeed be europe ;)
* jsgotangco thinks ubuntu love is seriously needed in ASPAC/EMEA
<mdke> jdub, ah cool
<rob1> not comming as far south of asisa as australia is it?
<rob1> hot pie is burnies
<jsgotangco> asia-oceana
<desrt> daniels; ping
<jdub> BenC: why doesn't linux-source-2.6.15 build-dep on gcc-3.4
<jdub> ?
<jdub> oh
<jdub> 2.6.12 does
<jdub> BenC: we're building 2.6.15 with gcc 4?
<infinity> jdub : Yup.
<infinity> jdub : On all but hppa, where it's still using 3.4
<daniels> desrt: pong
<jdub> infinity: wow
<Amaranth> infinity: kick ass, that'll make life much easier
<infinity> That's the hope.
<Amaranth> i won't have to explain to people how to make a kernel module build with gcc-3.4
<infinity> Unless it makes life much crashier, but so far that doesn't seem to be the case.
<infinity> (We may still have to do a last-minute switch back to -3.4 if we find a showstopper, so don't get too excited yet, but the whole 2.6.15 series has been building with 4.0, and it doesn't seem much worse than our 2.6.12 kernels with 3.4)
<Amaranth> gotta love those gcc bugs
<infinity> It's not just GCC bugs.
<Amaranth> things it used to warn on now fail?
<infinity> The kernel is some pretty touchy code that often relies on GCC misbehaviour.
<Amaranth> ah
<infinity> It's a constant battle to keep improving both the compilers and the kernel and keep them lockstep.
<Amaranth> don't people compile it with icc?
<infinity> Linux has been compiled with a variety of compilers, but I wouldn't trust some subsystems and drivers much further than I can throw an elephant unless you're using GCC (and a recommended version, no less)
<jdub> infinity: can't wait for grumpy + icc - that'll be fun ;-)
<fabbione> morning
<infinity> jdub : For some unknown value of "fun" that I'm not yet familiar with.
<fabbione> icc?
<infinity> Intel CC.
<jdub> fabbione: the intel one
<fabbione> oh
<fabbione> you kidding..
<jdub> meanwhile, vmware is being oom-killed on this machine ;-)
<fabbione> speaking of which.. i need to build the new modules
* jdub wishes there were a sane ubuntu package of vmware :(
<jdub> the installer script is sooooo ugly
<Amaranth> jdub: poke chipx86 or something ;)
<fabbione> hmmm
<fabbione> go quickcam!
* fabbione needs to reboot
<Amaranth> btw, broadcom driver in dapper == i can get off OS X
<Amaranth> yay
<mpt> fabbione, have you considered logging #ubuntu-desktop?
* BenC is ready to do his first test with alternative_smp
<BenC> it compiled, which is always a good sign
<infinity> alternative_smp?... Does it come with tattoos and army boots?
<BenC> just a silly wig
<fabbione> mpt: no, becuase if people don't tell/ask me about channels, it's unlikely i get to know about them. in any case my bot is in too many channels and i can't join anymore
<mpt> ok
<BenC> well, it booted, and gdm+nvidia started
<fabbione> new pack!
<fabbione> hey BenC 
<fabbione> how big is the new pack?
<jdub> BenC: rock
<BenC> new pack?
<fabbione> pack/pack-2dae6bb81ac4383926b1d6a646e3f73b130ba124.pack
<BenC> I don't know
<BenC> must be automatic from kernel.org
<fabbione> probably
<BenC> rsync sucks for git
<BenC> especially when it repacks
<fabbione> rsync sucks.
<fabbione> i start my u.c rsync at 400K
<fabbione> after a few 100MB i am down at 20K/s
<fabbione> it exponetially slows down
<BenC> "SMP alternatives: switch to UP code"
<BenC> rock
<fabbione> BenC: is that SMP2UP on amd4?
<fabbione> amd64
<BenC> no, that's a new alternative_smp bit jdub pointed me to
<BenC> much better than smp2up
<fabbione> ah
<infinity> What's this one do?
<BenC> has two advantages
<BenC> 1) It does the module stuff cleanly
<BenC> 2) It even accounts for cases where UP would have been a nop and SMP introduces an entire function (semaphores for example)
<BenC> in the second case, it will nop the entire function
<infinity> Nice.
<infinity> Is it more likely to work cross-platform, so we can do this on amd64 and powerpc too?
<BenC> plus, it works with hotplug cpu, meaning it will reenable SMP functions if you hotplug a second cpu :)
<BenC> it's a bit more complex
<infinity> You're kidding.  That's sexy.
<desrt> that sounds pretty .... odd?
<BenC> but since it does the function stuff, it should be easier for things like ppc
<desrt> what if a critical section is executing while you swap in the 2nd CPU?
<desrt> (but you have no way of telling that you're in a critical section since there is no locking for UP)
<BenC> define critical?
<desrt> holding locks
<desrt> or would-be-holding-locks
<desrt> (in the case that locks are NOP'd out)
<BenC> not sure, but I haven't looked at how to enables SMP after the fact
<BenC> how it enables I mean
<infinity> Could be a small race there in theory.  In practice, I don't see that it would hurt much.
<BenC> it should be easy to do this for amd64 atleast
<desrt> maybe processor swapping requires all CPUs to come to a synchronisation point before proceeding
* desrt shrugs.  seems interesting in any case.
<daniels> add it to a waitqueue?
<infinity> Rather.
<BenC> well, everything appears to be stable
<infinity> I can't imaging that UP->SMP hotplugging would be a common use case anyway.  Still, cool if it works.
<BenC> could be that cpu hotplug already does enough so that the smp enabler doesn't have to worry about it
<infinity> imagine, either.
<desrt> daniels; remember that bug where you got windows leaving traces on the background and the panel appeared at the bottom of the screen?  you fixed it with an upload of xorg shortly following flight 2
<desrt> the top panel appeared at the bottom, i mean
<daniels> desrt: er, no shit?
<daniels> desrt: on r300 with ppc?
<daniels> (r300 -> r3xx, r4xx)
<desrt> daniels; ya.  it's not fixed.
<daniels> oh.  no, it's not.
<desrt> oh.  excellent.
<fabbione> desrt: known problem
<daniels> it works with exa
<desrt> perfect
<daniels> it *seems* to be a bug in the xaa core
<fabbione> daniels: didn't you say that EXA is BAD BAD BAD
<desrt> ah.
<daniels> fabbione: sure
<fabbione> to the definition of BAD like in ghostbuster?
<daniels> fabbione: in that it may well kill your system, and good luck with anything being even vaguely performant
<jdub> wow, my father in law just plopped this totally bizaare piece of hardware down on the table
<infinity> jdub: Does it vibrate?
<fabbione> aahha
<daniels> when anholt's done fixing the memory manager, I'll reconsider exa as the default for r3xx/r4xx
<jdub> it's a 486 cyrix machine with 4MB ram, deigned for pos use, with a pen interface
<jdub> fabbione: ha ha ghostbusters
<daniels> jdub: the mexican place I was at a couple of days ago appears to be using zauruses
* fabbione wears his protonic backpack
<daniels> your backpack has protons in it?? that's too cool!
<jdub> i'm glad ubuntu runs on 486
<daniels> mine only has neutrons :(
<fabbione> ehe
<jdub> dunno about this $MB ram issue though ;)
<jdub> 4MB
<jdub> *cough*
<daniels> jdub: you'll want a 1GB swap partition
<daniels> also afaict you can't be using more than 640x480x8, unless you want to have your framebuffer image being swapped out
<jdub> wow
<desrt> or stored in video ram....
<jdub> windows for pen computing version one
<daniels> desrt: if you can't accelerate all your ops, then you need to have a software image
<daniels> desrt: i'm betting whatever's in there does nothing more advance than solid fills, point-to-point lines, and blits
<desrt> daniels; but if you disable accel entirely....
<desrt> daniels; or is that not supported these days?
<daniels> desrt: yeah, I guess
<daniels> desrt: Option "NoAccel" is supported everywhere
<desrt> well
<desrt> a 486 with 4MB of ram is supposed to be painful
<daniels> yeah
<desrt> so it may as well be very painful :)
<daniels> the lines will be fine, but fills and blits will cane you
<daniels> slow framebuffer reads/writes + slow bus == oh my god
* desrt tries on some ska chords for size
<jdub> http://www.computercloset.org/DauphinDTR1.htm
<jdub> ^ ha ha, that's it
<fabbione> jdub: neat toy
<fabbione> you can probably install a reduced ubuntu on it
<fabbione> for sure you want a stripped down to death kernel
<jdub> yeah
<jdub> will probably try netbooting a tiny kernel
<fabbione> i don't think you can netboot that thingy :)
<fabbione> probably using one of these floppy from netrom.something
<fabbione> that have a pxe client on floppy
<fabbione> with only the specific enet driver for that machine
<jdub> "The unit will run for two continuous hours on a battery charge without the keyboard attached. If the keyboard is attached, it will run for an hour and a half."
<jdub> ha ha ha
<infinity> Nice. :)
<daniels> orright, no x11r7 final 'till next year
<daniels> but the only changes between rc4 and final were pure doc, so whatevz
<jdub> hrm, the ethernet port may only be a header, too...
<pitti> Hi
<jsgotangco> pitti, good morning
<pitti> hi jsgotangco 
<jsgotangco> pitti, happy holidays =)
<pitti> jsgotangco: thank you, same to you :)
<pitti> enjoy christmas, family, and vacation
<jsgotangco> pitti, yup but before that, are locales still broken? =)
<jsgotangco> sorry i had to ask heh
* pitti whistles
<jsgotangco> haha
<jsgotangco> enjoy the weekend =)
<pitti> jsgotangco: consider it a present for xmas - find out about the deeper quirks of dpkg ;)
<Amaranth> was the workaround in cairo for an X bug removed?
<Amaranth> because i think i'm seeing that bug again on ppc
<Amaranth> it's fun watching icons dance up the desktop though
<ogra> Amaranth, are you sure youre not accidentially using KDE ? :P
<Amaranth> heh
<dholbach> hellas
<jsgotangco> hey
<jsgotangco> dholbach, happy holidays
<dholbach> thank you
* dholbach hugs jsgotangco
<jsgotangco> ho ho ho
<dholbach> happy holidays and merry christmas to everbody else too!
<robitaille> thanks
* robitaille has been on vacation for the last few hours
<fabbione> i hate you all :)
<fabbione> i want to be vac too!
<dholbach> morning seb128
* dholbach hugs fabbione
<fabbione> hey dholbach 
* seb128 hugs dholbach
<dholbach> fabbione: you'll be working 27-31?
<ogra> fabbione, i thought we are supposed to (from tomorrow on)
<fabbione> dholbach: no
<fabbione> dholbach: we are not allowed...
<ogra> heh
<dholbach> fabbione: *phew* yeah
<fabbione> not like i won't be playing with my toys
<fabbione> i need to build my console server to plug hppa/a64/an extra sparc
<fabbione> and some other piece of equpment
<fabbione> fix my tivo box
<fabbione> all kind of stuff
<fabbione> not that i expect my wife to allow me to do so
<fabbione> but at least i will try :)
<dholbach> fabbione: that's what i thought ;)
<ogra> heh
<jsgotangco> caio
<jettana> hello
<jettana> i had problem about remastering Ubuntu install cd
<jordi> pitti: ping
<pitti> fast pong
<jordi> those are the ones I like
<jordi> pitti: when a package in launchpad says it has no template to translate, usually it means the src package had no pot distributed?
<jordi> pitti: https://launchpad.net/products/rosetta/+bug/2022
<pitti> sounds right
* rikai idly tries to update to daper in a vmware session.
<pitti> jordi: we need to fix all these packages to produce a pot
<pitti> slomo_: ping
<pitti> seb128, slomo_: I updated the avahi main inclusion report
<seb128> pitti: thanks for looking on it
<fabbione> pitti: i just tried a breezy->dapper update for the locales stuff
<fabbione> and it's no go
<pitti> fabbione: what breaks?
<fabbione> it looks like /var/$something/ is missing
<fabbione> quite a long path..
<pitti> fabbione: does the locale package break?
<pitti> or the langauge packs?
<fabbione> yes
<fabbione> the locale
<pitti> /var/lib/locales/supported.d I assume
<fabbione> ye
<pitti> ok, thanks
<Lathiat> pitti: ooh nifty
<fabbione> it says in preinst or something that it is missing
<fabbione> and error hard
<pitti> fabbione: could you please file a major bug against me? I can't fix it now (EBUSY)
<Lathiat> pitti: dropping qt4 is easy
<pitti> Lathiat, slomo_, seb128: ok, packaging and debs look fine, security looks fine, too, but the RC bugs need to be solved
<Lathiat> pitti: qt4 in universe?
<fabbione> pitti: meh sure ok
<Lathiat> pitti: what RC bugs?
<pitti> Lathiat: http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/pkgreport.cgi?src=avahi
<pitti> and the FTBFS on i386
<Lathiat> ubuntu build logs?
<pitti> the important and normal Debian bug look pretty serious, too
<Lathiat> looking now
<Lathiat> didnt realise they were there
<seb128> pitti: http://people.ubuntu.com/~lamont/buildLogs/a/avahi/0.6.1-1ubuntu1 ...
<pitti> well, these bugs probably come and go on a daily basis
<seb128> pitti: all successful
<pitti> seb128: no idea, there are no 0.6.1-1ubuntu1 i386 debs
<Lathiat> most of this stuff is a quick/minor
<fabbione> pitti: 21436
<pitti> seb128: hmm, odd
<pitti> fabbione: thanks
<seb128> pitti: I'm not sure the archive is updated since yesterday
<seb128> pitti: gst-plugins-good0.10 built yesterday and no sign of the deb neither
<seb128> seems that elmo broke the archive before running in VAC :p
<seb128> I got no update today neither
<seb128> (out of an openoffice stuff from yesterday)
<jordi> pitti: so what do we do in this case?
<pitti> jordi: well, fix the package to build a POT :)
<pitti> guys, I have to leave now, I need to visit my grandparents
<jordi> ok. even for breezy?
<pitti> no, not for breezy
<pitti> we can manually build a breezy POT and feed it into Rosetta
<pitti> as we did for hoary
<pitti> I might be online again in the afternoon
<seb128> pitti: enjoy your holidays, happy christmas/new year :)
<pitti> seb128: for you, too!
* seb128 hugs pitti
<pitti> jordi: happy christmas to you
* pitti hugs everybody
<Nafallo> what happened at ubz? everyone has been hugging everyone else since then :-P.
<dholbach> Nafallo: there was some love potion in the food
<mvo> SUPERHUG powers
<JaneW> dholbach: chinese aphrodisiacs
<Nafallo> hehe :-)
<dholbach> did somebody apart from the ubuntu world comment on that already? ;-p
<Nafallo> hehe, no idea ;-)
<Nafallo> hmm
<Nafallo> mp3 support out of the box for dapper?
<Nafallo> http://blogs.gnome.org/view/uraeus/2005/12/23/0
<dholbach> Nafallo: we already talked about that - there's some "if your a distributor..." clause somewhere on those pages
<Nafallo> right...
<jdub> Nafallo: we can't ship it, but fluendo will be able to
<Nafallo> indeed. I actually read more than the blog now :-).
<slomo_> jbailey: ping?
<jbailey> slomo_: pong?
<slomo_> jbailey: do you know of any great problems with breezy and flight2 live cds on ppc64? the mono guy refused to debug it any further because he had lockups, kernel panics, etc :/
<jbailey> slomo_: Yup, all of the above.
<jbailey> Fixed in current Dapper.
<slomo_> perfect... i'll tell him :) thanks
<jbailey> Well, loose version of fixed.  Don't use opengl at all
<jbailey> But if you avoid that, the rest of it is now mostly fine.
<slomo_> do we have daily live cds and are they working currently? ;)
<apokryphos> slomo_: http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/daily/
<jbailey> slomo_: I don't test the live CDs much.  I do try to run current dapper, though.
<slomo_> ok, thanks
<lucas> hi
<mhz> hi all
<Pygi> Hi hi
<mdke> Riddell, ping? is there a reason the kubuntu docs are building into trunk/kubuntu/build rather than trunk/build/kubuntu?
<pvanhoof> libc6-dev: Depends: libc6 (= 2.3.5-1ubuntu12) but 2.3.5-1ubuntu17 is to be installed
<pvanhoof> on dapper
<pvanhoof> is that situation going to get fixed soon? :)
<pvanhoof> I just reinstalled my laptop, but that one is holding back any -dev packge install
<pvanhoof> making it nearly impossible to get a working development environment ;), that sucks
<jbailey> pvanhoof: EErr.  What arch is that?
<jbailey> pvanhoof: I've seen no other bug reports saying that, so it seems like you've got something else going on.
<pvanhoof> i386
<pvanhoof> jbailey, standard setup breezy (from cd) and immedialtely after installed upgraded to dapper
<pvanhoof> did it that way because the todays dapper daily cd didn't work
<pvanhoof> but gtg :-(. catch me later on this, will yha?
<jbailey> pvanhoof: Sure.  Ping me when you're around.
<stockholm> mdz is not here. will he be online later?
<dholbach> stockholm: no, he's on vacation
<stockholm> ah, right, christmas!
<stockholm> i forgot. 
<stockholm> when is he back?
<dholbach> i dunno exactly, but i suppose beginning of next year
<stockholm> ok, fine
<stockholm> thanks
<slomo_> jbailey: fyi current ppc64 daily live cd doesn't work :/
<jbailey> slomo_: =(  Can you file a bug?
<jbailey> It's unlikely to get looked at until the new year.
<slomo_> jbailey: ok... hm, should flight2 without X work?
<jbailey> I have no idea, sorry.  I haven't tested flight2.
<slomo_> ok... hmm, i'll ask this guy to file bugs... i don't know what exactly doesn't work
<slomo_> i need to get more different machines :)
<sivang> wow, nice I didn't know debconf questions were being GTK'd in synaptic
<Pygi> hehe :)
<mvo> sivang: :)
* sivang always dist-upgrades from the terminal, so didn't see that so far
<mvo> sivang: I (well, biased) find using synaptic nice for big upgrades because I get a rough idea how long it will take because of the progressbar
<sivang> mvo: agreed, but I now seem to be running into an endless loop with locales installation failure -
<sivang> mvo: do I need to do anything then change my sources.list file for dist-ugprading in synaptic?
<mvo> sivang: a endless loop? hm, I had a problems with the locales too, it solved itself after a second "apply"
<mvo> sivang: no, changing your sources.list is enough
<sivang> mvo: ok, I will retry
<sivang> mvo: weird. I can't get out of thie loop. It repeats the question about which dictionaris to install, displays the locale LC_ALL=C fallback errors on the terminal fails again and starts from the beginning
<mvo> sivang: I remember getting a lot of questions about the dictinoaries as well. I had to confirm it 10-20 times (upgrade glitch). you may try to upgrade to breezy first before going to dapper. that works usually better 
<mvo> going only a single version at a time
<jbailey> mvo, sivang: IIRC, skipping versions isn't supported for upgrades.
<zul> heh...i did that as well
<mvo> jbailey: yes, it's not supported. but sivang is a power-user. I did such upgrades as well, it requires a bit more hand-holding
<jbailey> Right.  I didn't know if anyone had ever bothered even trying it.
<khermans_> I would like to make a Ubuntu document, but I want it to stay updated by using SOAP to connect to my webserver to get the latest info
<khermans_> how can I add a SOAP connection to my PDF document?
<neuralis> khermans_: you can't.
<khermans_> ?
<khermans_> supposedly you can in Acrobat 6+
<khermans_> http://www.planetpdf.com/developer/article.asp?ContentID=6324
<tseng> that sounds like a question for the acrobat manual
<neuralis> khermans_: i'm pretty sure none of the unix pdf viewers support such a thing.
<khermans_> ok, fair enough -- thought someone might know
<neuralis> khermans_: it also just sounds like a bad idea. it's much easier to put a nice box at the top of your document that provides a url to the newest version of your document.
<tseng> i might suggest though that you are better off making an xml docbook source file and dynamically generating the pdf programmatically
<tseng> or something.
<neuralis> tseng: that isn't really what he's looking for. he wants a document to auto-update _after_ it reaches the end-user, which is non-trivial and rarely done.
<khermans_> neuralis, exactly
<khermans_> so like, even if I distributed a PDF to my friend, he would never have to naviigate to the site again -- just reopen the PDF and there are the new steps for doing some Dapper-specific stuff, or even Dapper+1
<khermans_> oh well :-(
<neuralis> khermans_: the easiest way to do that is to provide the documentation as HTML, and use XHR after the page loads to attempt to fetch a more recent version, then replace the contents via standard DOM manipulation.
<neuralis> actually, no, that won't work. cross-site xhr. nevermind.
<neuralis> khermans_: i think you're mostly out of luck.
<dholbach> good night everybody - have a happy christmas and a good start into the next year
<Treenaks> dholbach: you're leaving us for a week?
<Treenaks> dholbach: (have a good christmas/newyear too :))
<dholbach> Treenaks: thanks, i guess i pop in every now and then, but just wanted to say, when i see you all ;)
<Treenaks> dholbach: blog it ;)
<dholbach> :)
<mjg59> With cdbs, what's the right approach to adding a patch that requires the package to be autoreconfed?
<jbailey> Is it autoconf and automake together?
<mjg59> jbailey: autoconf, automake and autoheader
<mjg59> It's easy to just keep those in the patch, except that seems to defeat the entire point of having the patch
<mjg59> Uhm. Defeat the entire point of having the patch be a split-out patch
<jbailey> mjg59: Generally I find the best solution is to add AM_MAINTAINER_MODE to configure.{in,ac} and the regenerate the files once.
<mjg59> jbailey: See above :)
<jbailey> That way security updates don't depend on the autotools all working together with whatever version they're at in the future.
<mjg59> Right, but then if there's more than one patch that does that, there's no point in having split out patches at all
<jbailey> Robert Millan added some magic to make it automatically autoreconf and such.  I've never tried it.
* jbailey looks it up
<mjg59> "CDBS can be asked to update libtool, autoconf, and automake files, but this behavior is likely to break the build system and is '''STRONGLY''' discouraged."
<mjg59> (No mention of autoheader, though the code seems to do it)
<jbailey> It looks like DEB_AUTO_UPDATE_AUTOCONF might just need to be added to the rules file.
<mjg59> Yeah. This still sounds like a poor solution, though I can't see a better one
<jbailey> Right.
* mjg59 wonders if he needs to add autoconf and friends to the build-dependencies in that case
<jbailey> What it really needs is some clever way that says "At the last possible moment, run autoreconf -f -i -s"
<jbailey> Yes.
<mjg59> They're not automatically pulled in?
<mjg59> The extent to which I hate cdbs grows by the day
<jbailey> They're automatically pulled in if you're using cdbs to generate your build-deps.
<mjg59> Doesn't look like it. Bah.
<jbailey> mjg59: Tell me what you want to be different.
<jbailey> I'm actually hacking a bit on cdbs again.  If I can make it useful to you, I'd rather do that.
<jbailey> Especially given that enough other people like it that you can't really avoid it.
<mjg59> jbailey: Heh :) I want it to deal well with patches that touch the autotools config
<jbailey> That's reasonable.
<mjg59> Since it seems to defeat the point of split out patches otherwise
<jbailey> Can you think of a non-sucky way to handle the build-deps problem?
<jbailey> Right now it requires a control.in file.
<jbailey> Since build-deps have to be stable before upload.
<mjg59> Have a pre-upload pass?
<mjg59> Can it be done somehow during dpkg-buildpackage? I've never actually looked enough at what it does then
<jbailey> Right now the maintainer has to generate it manually with debian/rules debian/control
<mjg59> Right
<jbailey> It's easy enough, but it breaks the assumption that debian/control is the canonical file to edit.
<mjg59> Yeah
<mjg59> A ${cdbs:deps} type statement that would just be for things that cdbs pulls in?
<jbailey> Yup.  I think we use automake style @CDBS@ right now, but that's the idea.
<jbailey> It's what you include in the control.in.
<mjg59> Right
<jbailey> One hack that I *will* be putting in shortly is a test that if debian/control is not up to date, that the build will fail right at the beginning with a note asking the maintainer to run debian/rules debian/control by hand.
<mjg59> Hrm. What's the right way to build-depend on automake?
<jbailey> automake1.9
<mjg59> Heh :)
<mjg59> Fair enough
<jbailey> (assuming your automake-fu is sufficiently recent)
<mjg59> Yeah
#ubuntu-devel 2005-12-29
<hughsie> PowerManagement guys -- opinions please.
<hughsie> in reference to https://wiki.ubuntu.com/PowerManagementConfiguration
<hughsie> the battery critical sliders are per-time, rather than per-percent.
<hughsie> now I've got a bit of time, i've been fixing the issues ubuntu has with g-p-m to more match this mockup
<hughsie> but, i need some rational about the per-time thing
<ogra_ibook> hughsie, i guess nobody of the guys that have written this spec is around ...
<ogra_ibook> (and i disagree with it to be honest, i think g-p-m is fine as is)
<hughsie> ogra, cool, cheers!
<hughsie> ogra_ibook, you mind if I scribble on your wiki?
<ogra_ibook> put a comments section at the bottom and make your suggestions there
<ogra_ibook> but in the end its mjg59 who will implement it and i think he'll take g-p-m as well as it is now ;)
<hughsie> ogra_ibook, I figured if you really dont likethe hal actions thing, you can just wrap g-p-m around PowerManager init.d service like i did before hal had actions support
<hughsie> ogra_ibook, but that's hassle :-)
<ogra_ibook> gah, got a horrible lag here
<hughsie> ogra_ibook, You should see the mount(), unmount(), eject() methods in HAL CVS.
<ogra_ibook> mjg59 cares for this part, i think he'll just write a dbus service
<ogra_ibook> at least it sounded like it ...
<hughsie> they rock for fedora (as gnome can just call a dbus method) but I'm not sure how easily pmount and the ubuntu stuff will work.
<hughsie> he can use PowerManager as a start, or just do a quick daemon in python or something
<ogra_ibook> currently he calls the gdm functions directly, which works like a charm ...
<ogra_ibook> but wont match the security requirements i guess
<hughsie> yes, i guess.
<ogra_ibook> i'd love to have it like it is now ...
<hughsie> :-), well, wait and see
<hughsie> you been following g-p-m cvs at all?
<ogra_ibook> but somehow there were some people that didnt like the implementation at all and wrote this spec
<ogra_ibook> only the releases ... my focus moved to ltsp ...
<hughsie> I think Corey Burger has some problems with some stuff, but Jaap sent a few patches to make him happier.
<hughsie> Like the Shutdown button now brings up the logout dialogue
<hughsie> rather than just blindly shutting down the system
<ogra_ibook> yes, Burgwork is a hard bone if it comes to usability, he's a perfectionist ;)
<ogra_ibook> cool
<hughsie> Yes, he's cool.
<hughsie> Exams finsihed last week, and so far I've been committing patches like ther eis no tmw.
<hughsie> today I've made 11 commits to gnome cvs
<ogra_ibook> heh
<hughsie> how's work?
<mjg59> hughsie: Hi
<ogra_ibook> cool
<ogra_ibook> i just get a nightly meal ...
<schlomo> Hi
<schlomo> sorry to bother
<hughsie> mjg59, hi, you got a min?
<ogra_ibook> bbl
<mjg59> hughsie: Basically, we're going to be using g-p-m as is
<ogra_ibook> yay
<hughsie> mjg59, with the hal methods?
<mjg59> hughsie: I've hacked dbus lightly to get the semantics right for our security model
<schlomo> which version has been used to compile kernel 2.6.12.10-386 ?
<mjg59> hughsie: Yup
<hughsie> mjg59, *sweet*
<schlomo> I have to recompile alsa driver for snd-hda-intel
<hughsie> mjg59, there's lots of source tidy ups and code reduction in CVS.
<hughsie> but CVG g-p-m depends on CVS hal...
<hughsie> :-)
<schlomo> any idea ?
<mjg59> hughsie: I've got a pam module that creates a lockfile when a user logs in, which includes the console
<hughsie> mjg59, like the rh at_console thing?
<schlomo> don't tell me gcc-3.5 because it's virtual package right now :)
<mjg59> hughsie: It's the at_console thing, except we check that the user is at the foreground console
<mjg59> Rather than just at /a/ console
<schlomo> please any tips ?
<hughsie> mjg59, so better than at_console :-)
<mjg59> So if there are two users at the console, only the current one can trigger suspends and play with the network and so on
<mjg59> hughsie: Yes :)
<hughsie> mjg59, makes sense
<hughsie> i ight steal the idea and bugzilla rh about it.. :-)
<hughsie> mjg59, I think i've solved the "gpm won't run at the login screen" problem
<schlomo> hum
<mjg59> hughsie: So the only thing I need to add now is a suid app that hal can call
<schlomo> thanks anyway
<mjg59> hughsie: Oh, coo
<schlomo> :)
<hughsie> using dbus activation, one instance of g-p-m can replace another.
<hughsie> and one instance can be gnome-power-console and have no GUI.
<mjg59> schlomo: cat /proc/version
<mjg59> hughsie: Ah, excellent
<hughsie> mjg59, that sound likea plan?
<hughsie> mjg59, one problem tho,
<mjg59> hughsie: Yes
<schlomo> gcc version 3.4.5 20050809  :)
<schlomo> mjg59 : thanks for the tips ;-)
<hughsie> mjg59, g-p-m has to use the system dbus connection, not the session connection
<mjg59> hughsie: Ah
<hughsie> as session gets created and destroyed all the time with login and logout
<mjg59> Yes
<mjg59> Hmm
<mjg59> We want to be able to have more than one g-p-m running, though
<hughsie> no big problem, same shit, different connection that's all
<hughsie> mjg59, what for?
<mjg59> Since more than one user may have a session
<mjg59> Or are we back to a system-wide g-p-m now?
<hughsie> mjg59, no -- :-)
<mjg59> With fast-user-switching, there may be two or more users with gnome sessions at once
<hughsie> mjg59, when the user is no longer at_console, the instance of g-p-m attached to that console quits, and the at_console instance gets started
<hughsie> but with fusa, only one should be at_console, no?
<mjg59> hughsie: With RH, multiple people can be at_console
<mjg59> With us, only one
<hughsie> mjg59, yes, but that is busted and wrong in my opinion
<hughsie> the rh case that is
<mjg59> But users can switch just by hitting ctrl+alt+F?
<mjg59> How do you catch that?
<schlomo> configure: error: You have built-in ALSA in your kernel. ?
<schlomo> I have to get source ?
<schlomo> why I can compile a module ?
<mjg59> schlomo: What are you trying to do?
<schlomo> on Hoary kernel I can
<mjg59> schlomo: You should probably be asking this on #ubuntu
<hughsie> mjg59, not sure of the details at the moment, i'm waiting for somebody to fix https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=4637
<schlomo> sorry
<hughsie> so I can test it myself and get all the corner cases out
<schlomo> Ihave to recompile alsa module for snd-hda-intel
<hughsie> but at the moment session/system dbus is one #define change ;-)
<schlomo> on 2.6.12.10-i386
<crimsun> schlomo: ask in #ubuntu, I'll help you. This is the wrong channel.
<mjg59> hughsie: Ok, cool
<schlomo> ok sorry
<hughsie> mjg59, whats the release date for dapper?
<mjg59> hughsie: April
<hughsie> no problem. new hal is expected in jan, so my big release is going to be a bit after that
<hughsie> Assuming fd#4637 gets fixed in time....
<hughsie> mjg59, one last question (then i sleep) for the critical low sliders, currenly per-percent, in the discussion with Corey, he wanted then per-time (i.e. 5 minutes remaining, rather than 5% remaining) -- what's your take on this?
<mjg59> hughsie: I think per-time is sensible
<mjg59> But I think I've said that before :)
<hughsie> mjg59, i'm thinking so at the moment, but some batteries give wildly inaccurate times at low charges... is that not a worry?
<mjg59> hughsie: Hmm. How is the time less accurate than the percentage?
<hughsie> mjg59, if the resolution is say 2 minutes, and the battery dischange is non-linear (old/knackered batteries) then the time goes completely non-linear less than about 10 minutes
<hughsie> my new laptop battery is okay, but my old battery is accurate for the first 30 minutes, then exponentially crashes!
<mjg59> hughsie: Oh - so when we say "10 minutes" that might be entirely inaccurate? Hrm.
<hughsie> yes
<mjg59> I wonder if hal ought to learn
<hughsie> i normally hibernate at 1% (critical low)
<mjg59> Since spec-compliant batteries provide a model number and serial number
<hughsie> but one minute is not accurate enough at all.
<hughsie> mjg59, my batteries only differ by age.
<mjg59> hughsie: The serial number is identical?
<mjg59> Tch.
<hughsie> you can do some fancystuff in hal for non-linear discharges, but then you need a backing store for the data
<hughsie> not serial no, but model etc
<mjg59> Ok. Percentage based, but set the default based on the battery information?
<mjg59> hughsie: Right, that was what I meant
<mjg59> hughsie: hal could record the curve for individual batteries
<mjg59> That's quite advanced, though :)
<hughsie> mjg59, yes, but that requires a backing store for about 16k of data. I've thought about this one before
<mjg59> hughsie: Yeah. We have no mechanism for that now?
<hughsie> the percentage change should be set on the capacity, you're right.
<hughsie> i'll do that.
<hughsie> at the moment, g-p-p gives a "esimated time value" in small italics under the percentage slider.
<mjg59> Ok, that sounds good
<hughsie> you can see it in the glade file, but it only works (obvioulsy) when discharging.
<mjg59> As long as it doesn't default to warning me at a ridiculous time when I've got a big battery :)
<hughsie> yes, i'll fix that. defaults to 5% at the moment
<hughsie> mjg59, okay, thanks for the input. I sleep now. Happy Christmas all you Ubuntu'ers!
<mjg59> hughsie: Happy christmas!
<schlomo> Hi
<schlomo> I have take some quotes from an article
<raphink> yop schlomo
<raphink> faut dormir il est tard ;)
<schlomo> about friendly documentation 
<schlomo> and support options
<schlomo> yep
<schlomo> I think it very interesting
<schlomo> http://paste.ubuntu-nl.org/6100
<schlomo> just 3 rows
<schlomo> can you read please
<schlomo> does launchpad.net has been done for that purpose ?
<raphink> where is that from ?
<raphink> schlomo: demande sur #launchpad si tu veux parler de launchpad c'est mieux, c'est fait pour :)
<schlomo> ok :)
<schlomo> ACM
<lunitik> Is there any work around for the locales issue?  (bugzilla #21436)  - I'd ask in #ubuntu but I'm banned....
<lunitik> k... thanks for your help  :/
<Amaranth> liar, he isn't in the ban list
<pef> hello
<pvanhoof> I recently upgraded to ubuntu dapper, but list my cute X11 mouse cursor
<pvanhoof> how do I regain it? :)
<pvanhoof> s/list/lost
<pvanhoof> I'm addicted to that cute thing!
<pvanhoof> oh, and there's some problems with the cups packages. Some rc.invoke script fails
<pvanhoof> and the latest kernel has it's include files installed wrongfully. But I simply installed the kernel source package, changed the version in version.h and used that to build my VMWare modules (which works)
<pvanhoof> would be nice if it would get fixed ;0
<pvanhoof> ;)
<mpt> pvanhoof, this is a developer channel, and most of the developers are on holiday
<mpt> Besides, dapper is not an "upgrade" as long as it's not finished :-)
<pvanhoof> ok :)
<mpt> You'd probably have better luck reporting bugs in bugzilla.ubuntu.com
<pvanhoof> yeah, was going to do that
<Pygi> pvanhoof: after all, you can always try to uninstall it first. then install it
<pvanhoof> oh, but I just installed it. Why would I want to uninstall it? :)
<Pygi> I meant the mouse cursor :)
<pvanhoof> ah, is it a package?
<pvanhoof> that might have slipped during the install then
<pvanhoof> err, upgrade
<Pygi> heh :)
<Pygi> try do that, it may fix it :)
<pvanhoof> which package?
<Pygi> try xcursorgen with all it's dependencies
<Pygi> wb
<Yagisan> Is there some lag on the mirrors atm ? I received  pitti's notice about new kernels 2 days ago, and still don't see them @ au.archive.ubuntu.com
<jbailey> Yagisan: I would expect them to be on security.ubuntu.com
<Yagisan> jbailey: by default apt was set up with a  breezy-security line and my "local" mirror
<Yagisan> I'd assume that should have taken care of it
<jbailey> *shrug* I don't have good answers, only answer.
<Yagisan> jbailey: thanks anyway, being less the 2 hours until christmas, I didn't expect anyone to answer
<zul> merry christmas
<zakame> merry christmas too zul :) 'tis only an hour and a half away here :)
<zakame> in .ph
<zul> cool
<zakame> hi smurf 
<HiddenWolf> jdub, nice job bringing reason to the spatial debate on gnome-desktop-devel. Thumbs up.
<alejandro> hi
<mhz> hi alejandro 
<lamont> configure.in:220: error: possibly undefined macro: AM_PROG_LIBTOOL
<lamont> poor dbus
<BenC> anyone with a UP amd64 want to test a kernel for me?
<lamont> BenC: I have 32-bit user space, but I could test it later today if you want
<BenC> lamont: http://people.ubuntu.com/~bcollins/kernels/amd64-alternative-smp/
<lamont> I'm assuming that you'reconfident it won't trash my filesystem or anything like that...
<BenC> it's an SMP kernel
<BenC> yes, all should be safe
<BenC> it will either crash or boot :)
<lamont> model name      : AMD Athlon(tm) 64 Processor 3500+
<lamont> which beast do I want for that?
<BenC> after you boot it do "dmesg | grep SMP" and see if you see a message like "SMP alternatives: switching to UP code"
<BenC> -k8-smp
<lamont> fetching now - holler if someone beats me to testing it..
<BenC> the more testers the better
<lamont> otherwise, I'll munge it and install once I get back from running to town and such.
<lamont> ok
<lamont> I'll plan on testing in any case then
<BenC> no one has tested it yet
<BenC> thanks
<lamont> of course, if it comes up and tells me I have 2 processors, that'll be cool too.:-)
* lamont notes that php5 is ftbfs (needs to switch to libd4.3)
* lamont wanders off for a while
<lamont> dpkg-deb: building package `linux-image-2.6.15-10-amd64-k8-smp' in `../linux-image-2.6.15-10-amd64-k8-smp_2.6.15-10.15_i386.deb'.
<neuralis> BenC: ping
<tseng> lamont: is there a default -j to MAKEOPTS in the builders?
<tseng> lamont: > 1
<BenC> neuralis: pong
<neuralis> BenC: can you take a look at wiki/ServerTesting (bottom of page) and see what else you'd like on there?
<neuralis> i wrote that in 10 minutes at 4am, so i quite likely missed several things
<BenC> reading...
<BenC> neuralis: When reporting bugs, tell them to make sure to include atleast dmesg, and also check https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DebuggingProcedures for other things they can do prior to submitting the bug report
<neuralis> will do. anything else they should be testing?
<tseng> lamont: also, im told mvo can not build mono in even a breezy chroot on ppc buildd, which built fine before.. is something amiss with the system?
<tseng> lamont: its not reproducable on similar systems
<slomo> lamont: and it does also happen now for versions that worked before on that machine
<BenC> neuralis: that's pretty close to it
<decklin> where is the 'component' box in bugzilla? (when entering a new report)
<slomo> decklin: for new bugreports you should use launchpad.net/malone
<decklin> oh, ok. thank you.
<decklin> argh. ok, i created a bugzilla account 10 minutes ago, and that generated password does not work on malone, but malone also says my email is already registered.
<Amaranth> decklin: your wiki account should be your launchpad account
<Amaranth> slomo: all new bugs are going to malone now?
<slomo> Amaranth: afaik yes
<decklin> Amaranth: i'm pretty sure i don't have a wiki account.
<decklin> this is for an address i use on Debian packages, if that matters
<decklin> (well, a reset worked. ok, sorry to bother everyone.)
<\sh> evening
<lamont> tseng: no.  gcc has certain options (-pipe) forced, and defaults certain others (but not on ppc)
<lamont> tseng: what did change is possibly ppc vs ppc64 on the base system
<lamont> there could also be toolchain diffs between when it built and when it shipped.
<lamont> BenC: hrm... that new kernel requires a dapper initramfs-tools... what else does it need from dapper?
<\sh_away> merry christmas to all of you :)
<xhaker> \sh, to you too
<siretart> merry xmas to you all!
<siretart> does anyone happen to have an older version of xserver-xorg-driver-ati than xserver-xorg-driver-ati_6.5.7.2-0ubuntu1_i386?
<\sh> whiprush: your christmas present is on its way :)
<whiprush> heh
<\sh> ah well...dapper-changes message is already there :) 
<whiprush> heh
<whiprush> neato, thanks!
<\sh> ok..guys ... have some nice presents...nice celebrations :) cu later these days :)
<xhaker> siretart, i got xserver-xorg-driver-ati_6.5.7-0ubuntu3_i386.deb
<tseng> lamont: hm i ruled out toolchain on account of it failing the same on breezy chroot
<tseng> lamont: and merry christmas, you have the patience of a saint
<tseng> :P
<BenC> lamont: probably udev
<hub> the locales package does not want to install 
<hub> it is a dapper upgrade from flight CD 2
<hub> any take?
<tseng> dist-upgrade agaain
<slomo> yes... a second try fixed it for me too ;)
<hub> I tried it several time
<hub> I'll try again
<hub> still the same
<hub> I tried 2 times in a row
<hub> all it says is
<hub> dpkg: error processing /var/cache/apt/archives/locales_2.3.7-1_all.deb (--unpack):
<hub>  subprocess pre-installation script returned error exit status 1
<hub> Errors were encountered while processing:
<Sepheebear> its the preinst script
<Sepheebear> it doesnt check for the target dir before trying to write a file
<hub> oh
<hub> so?
<hub> is there a workaround?
<tseng> (make the directory?)
<hub> mpitt email on ubuntu announce was not really clear
<hub> which directory?
<Sepheebear> yeah: sudo mkdir -p /var/lib/locales/supported.d
<Sepheebear> then it goes smoothly again
<hub> still
<tseng> its not clear because its only a problem with dapper -> dapper
<tseng> which isnt supported
<hub> yeah I knoe
<Sepheebear> bugzilla #21419
<hub> sure
<hub> but the mkdir does not do anything
<hub> the directory already did exists
<Sepheebear> check the output of "dpkg -i /var/cache/apt/archives/locales_2.3.7-1_all.deb"
<Gatorade> I have a problem with my live cd can anyone help?
<Gatorade> When I load the cd my mouse does not respon
<Gatorade> repond*
<Gatorade> and the optical lights inside don't work
<Gatorade> help
<JanC> Gatorade: this is a channel for the developers to work together, try asking on #ubuntu
#ubuntu-devel 2005-12-30
<hub> still can't insall locales
* #ubuntu-devel  [freenode-info]  If you're at a conference, please contact freenode staff to make sure we've made special allowance for many users coming into our network from a single internet address ( http://freenode.net/faq.shtml#gettinghelp ). Private messages from unregistered users are currently blocked, except to network staff, services and participating registered users ( http://freenode.net/faq.shtml#privmsg )... Thanks!
<zakame> config
<poimen> someone here writes in c?
<bmonty> elmo: please sync solfege from unstable, ok to drop ubuntu changes
<crimsun> hey, I was just going to ask ;)
<bmonty> crimsun: heh...I beat you to it, and you opened a dup bug :)
<crimsun> bmonty: :)
<bmonty> Merry Christmas!
<crimsun> you, too :)
<zakame> still gard at work huh? :)
<zakame> *hard
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-devel:floam] :  www.myspace.com
<tseng> floam: what the hell
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-devel:seth_k|lappy] : Ubuntu Development (not support, even with dapper) | #ubuntu for support and general discussion | #ubuntu-motu for getting involved in development | http://wiki.ubuntu.com/DeveloperResources | http://wiki.ubuntu.com/HelpingWithBugs | Ubuntu 5.10 released: http://www.ubuntu.com/newsitems/release510 | Flight CD 2 released
<seth_k|lappy> thank goodness for topic history
* Mez|Vodka|DVD pokes seth_k|lappy 
<floam> tseng: what the fuck
<floam> god damn it, sorry
<floam> tseng: it's xmas, some 12 year old found this PC.
<floam> guess they thought xchat's topic bar would take them to a website
<desrt> hahahah
<desrt> xchat's topic bar does look remarkably like a webbrowser location bar
<zakame> is it just me, or did somebody delete PrintingRoadmap in the wiki?
<zakame> ah, it was moved... ignore /me
<robertj> anything horribly broke in dapper at the moment?
<ogra_ibook> not here
<robertj> dist-upgrade it is then!
* robertj hopes for a gnome-phone-manager miracle
<ogra_ibook> hmm... i wouldnt *dist*-upgrade 
<ogra_ibook> (at least not in a development release)
<robertj> nothing on this machine, so no need to worry
<ogra_ibook> your choice ;)
<Robot101> ogra_ibook: the key is reading what apt suggests... :P
<robertj> my key is apathy
<ogra_ibook> Robot101, exactly :)
<robertj> although I do remember about 6 years ago one dist-upgrade decided base needed to go
<ogra_ibook> my key is cherrypicking from the held back packages# 
<tseng> i dont have anything held back
<tseng> last was gnome-cups
<ogra_ibook> i installed flight 2 on this lappie yesterday, there was a lot held back
<ogra_ibook> (not anymore though)
* robertj was kinda bummed to not see any relicencing talk on rhythmbox-devel
<hub> robertj: locales does not install for me
<hub> I filed a bug
<ogra_ibook> does not install for you ? or does not set the locales ? 
<hub> fails to install
<ogra_ibook> oh, odd ...
<hub> I filed a bugzilla
<ogra_ibook> works fine here
<hub> yeah I know
<ogra_ibook> i just have to run locale-gen manually
<hub> can't
<robertj> how's your new laptop?
<hub> robertj: fast
<ogra_ibook> hub, hwat is it ? 
<ogra_ibook> *what
<robertj> yeah, I upgraded from a 1.6ghz celeron to a 1.4 ghz celeron and was shocked at the speed increase, I'm sure yours had to be substantial ;)
<robertj> btw, I still really like my G3 900 ibook when it is working
<hub> ogra_ibook: ibm z60t
<ogra_ibook> cool
<robertj> it's been back twice for the logic board and now I've got a power adapter I have to order but work is footing the bill, otherwise I'd be mad
<hub> robertj: from g3/400 to Centrino 1.73
<ogra_ibook> i got me this shiny G4 ibook :)
<hub> ogra_ibook: with the unsupported wireless?
<ogra_ibook> got it working fine now
<ogra_ibook> just compiled the latest bcm43xx trunk
<ogra_ibook> the one in the 2.6.15-9 package locked my system ... 
<robertj> what I want to know is if the intel ibook will have two mouse buttons, if I so I think that may be my next work laptop, otherwise it will probably be a tablet model
<ogra_ibook> call apple and ask ;) 
<ogra_ibook> i have no prob using the synaptics driver over here ... so i got virtually 3 mouse buttons
<robertj> I don't like the touch to click, I always turn it off
<robertj> yup, locals busted here as well
<tuhl> is this a know bug in the devel branch: cupsd is always exiting
<robertj> err locales
<robertj> and yup, running it by hand is still b0rk
<ogra_ibook> make sure the langpacks are installed too
<hub> robertj: I hate touch to click as well
<robertj> it just feels bad to me but I wonder if there are also RSI implications
<hub> bugz 21489
<ogra_ibook> i prefer it to extensive f12 usage
<hub> ogra_ibook: I catch myself doing that on the ibm
<robertj> caps lock seems like a good candidate for that
<ogra_ibook> heh
<hub> robertj: that bug I mentionned is about the locales
<robertj> I err...don't know what I do...I guess I hit f12 but maybe I just don't right click...
<robertj> touch to scroll however is great
<ogra_ibook> ++
<robertj> what's going on these days in directory-services land on the integration front?
<wasabi_> hahahaha  im on the internet
<ogra_ibook> wasabi_, nope... youre wrong, we're all in your lan :P
<poningru> http://geekz.co.uk/lovesraymond/archive/clique
<wasabi_> haha
<mjg59> Hurrah!
<mjg59> It says "No Dialtone"
<mjg59> Now I just need to plug it into a phoneline and test
<hub> poningru: I read that one
<mhz> ogra_ibook: I have been told LP is not 'free as in freedom'. Is that so?
<ogra_ibook> mhz, yes, it will be GPLed one day
<ogra_ibook> mhz, but its currently proprietary software
<mhz> ogra_ibook: and why is that Ubuntu people promote and prefer such propietary software to develop Freedom?
<ogra_ibook> because it offers functionallity nothing else offers
<ogra_ibook> its built around our needs ...
* mhz sighs deep in sadness
<Robot101> because the power of launchpad is that it's one place to track everything
<mhz> Track and Tutos do such thing, probably.
<ogra_ibook> mhz, dont worry it will become GPL eventually...
<mhz> that 'eventually' is my concern
<Robot101> mhz: launchpad has more resource to track the development of essentially all free software
<mhz> everytime I speak about ubuntu I make emphasis on the 'freedom' part
<Robot101> mhz: if it worries you, don't use it until it's free. until then, it might help other people to track stuff...
<mhz> Robot101: sure. It is just that I was blind because I took for granted that a development of the high category as ubuntu, and that also promotes freedom of access to knowledge, it was obviously using free software.
<ogra_ibook> mhz, ubuntu will be built using 100% launchpad in the future ... launchpad will give you easy features to build a 100% wmaker based edubuntu as youre asking for all the time ;) 
<Robot101> will a dapper kernel work on breezy? I need some new DVB USB drivers
<ogra_ibook> the kernel *might* work ... but i'm not sure if you also have to pull in new udev 
* Robot101 whistles innocently as he realises he's not had breezy-security in his sources list since it released
* ogra_ibook looks for ways to hack into Robot101's system
<Robot101> is there a handy way to make machines e-mail you when new updates become applicable?
<mjg59> Robot101: There's a cronjob on the SRCF that does it
<Robot101> mjg59: dapper kernel + breezy = win?
<mjg59> Robot101: Pretty much
<mjg59> Robot101: Oh, and I still need to actually /test/ it, but I may have a (mostly) free driver for the Thinkpad modems
<Robot101> cool
<hunger_> mjg59: Cool! Where can I get it?
<mjg59> hunger_: Hang on :)
<mjg59> hunger_: Need to check it works, then I need to hack it so it builds sensibly, then I need to figure out if it works on other chipsets
<mjg59> hunger_: What's the PCI ID of your device at 00:1f.6 ?
<Robot101> 0000:00:1f.6 0703: 8086:24c6 (rev 01)
<mjg59> Robot101: I know what yours is :p
<Robot101> :P
<hunger_> mjg59: Dunno... let me check the wiki...
* mjg59 goes to find the laptop
<Robot101> argh, nieces to bed = crying nearby... upstairs was quiet until now
<hunger_> mjg59: lspci says:  0000:00:1e.3 Modem: Intel Corp. 82801FB/FBM/FR/FW/FRW (ICH6 Family) AC'97 Modem Controller (rev 03)
<Robot101> hunger_: lspci -n?
<hunger_> Robot101: Dunno... no OS on my laptop at the moment...
<hunger_> Robot101: LiveCD does not boot on it, so I couldn't fix it yet.
* hunger_ is grabbing a ubuntu breezy live CD right now.
<mjg59> hunger_: Ok, not the same as mine, then
<mjg59> I'll need to do a couple of quick tests first
<mjg59> Gah
<hunger> Damn connection...
<mjg59> Why does minicom not work?
<ogra_ibook> yes, t-online has issues today
<hunger> ogra_ibook: I am at 1und1... that has issues every day:-(
<ogra_ibook> oh
<ogra_ibook> luckily i cant get 1+1 over here 
<hunger> ogra_ibook: I guess I cause about 4 times thwe traffic due to having to restart downloads then I would do if my connection would stay up for longer then max. 2h.
<mjg59> Hmm. It seems keen on "No Dialtone" even when connected to a phoneline
<ogra_ibook> thats odd
<hunger> mjg59: That is what I get with slmodem on my modem as well:-(
<mjg59> hunger: If you don't have a smartlink, that's what you'd expect
<hunger> mjg59: Yes... but slmodem used to work with my old laptop (which claimes to be AC97 as well), so I thought it might be worth a try.
<mjg59> hunger: Rather, it'll work with anything that properly complies to the MC97 spec, which Conexants don't
* hunger goes to bed. Maybe the liveCD will be downloaded when I get up tomorrow (which I doubt).
<hunger> mjg59: "The good thing about standards is that there are so many to misinterpret when convinient.".
<mjg59> hunger: Oh, I think this one was deliberate
<hunger> mjg59: Misinterpretions often are:-(
<ogra_ibook> hmm, g-p-m really needs to look at the time ...
<Robot101> The following packages will be REMOVED:
<Robot101>   busybox-cvs-initramfs hotplug
<Robot101> The following NEW packages will be installed:
<Robot101>   busybox-initramfs libsysfs2 linux-image-2.6.15-9-686 pcmciautils
<Robot101> The following packages will be upgraded:
<Robot101>   grepmap initramfs-tools libselinux1 linux-image-686 module-init-tools
<Robot101>   ubuntu-minimal udev
<Robot101> what could possibly go wrong? :)
<ogra_ibook> my battery still has 1.5h to go but the icon is deep red
<ogra_ibook> Robot101, try to omit udev
<ogra_ibook> Robot101, the new udev conflicts with hotplug, we dont use it anymore
<Robot101> it pulled in udev itself
<ogra_ibook> ouch
<ogra_ibook> not sure if it will work with breezy then
<Robot101> why? that's getting a new udev for me
<Robot101> and a new mkinitramfs
<Robot101> looks fine to me
<ogra_ibook> all the old hotplug stff in the apps will rely on hotplug being there ...
<Robot101> what hotplug stuff in the apps?
<ogra_ibook> dunno, i transitioned kino which has issue with the hotplug scripts for example
<Robot101> robot101@thubuntu:/etc/hotplug$ dpkg -S /etc/hotplug
<Robot101> libsane, hotplug, libgphoto2-2, alsa-base, linux-sound-base: /etc/hotplug
<mjg59> ogra_ibook: If they do, then dependencies aren't tight enough
<Robot101> those things?
<ogra_ibook> it expects certain hotplug scripts to be there for jogdial stuff
<mjg59> ogra_ibook: Can you file a bug, then?
<ogra_ibook> dunno which other apps might have issues, but i suspect there are more
<mjg59> If the system is in a consistent state, then things should work
<mjg59> If they don't, it's a failure in our packaging
<ogra_ibook> mjg59, since i care for kino, i'll just fix it with the next upload ;)
<Robot101> ogra_ibook: fix it with correct dependencies too though :)
<ogra_ibook> mjg59, if apps put stuff in /etc/hotplug.d they wont know its gone in breezy
<Robot101> ogra_ibook: yes, so they should depend on hotplug
<mjg59> ogra_ibook: Then udev needs to conflict with those packages
<Robot101> or that :)
<mjg59> Though yes, the correct behaviour was for them to depend on hotplug
<mjg59> (There are exceptions for packages that are essential, which makes life more awkward)
<Robot101> hmm, bringing dapper near my sources list has an interesting effect on my half-baked dbus situation
* Robot101 comments out dapper and finishes the plain breezy upgrade
<ogra_ibook> what means "near my sources.list" ?
<ogra_ibook> ah
<ogra_ibook> :)
<Robot101> I rolled my own dbus 0.60 packages
<mjg59> Robot101: I have a broken hal-device-manager now. I blame you.
<Robot101> mjg59: fix it to make async method calls from signal callbacks
<ogra_ibook> mjg59, blame launchpad ;)
<ogra_ibook> its missing some lpi stuff
<mjg59> ogra_ibook: No, dbus is broken...
<ogra_ibook> inbreezy ? 
<Robot101> no, J5 added a deadlock to the python bindings
<ogra_ibook> works fine for g-p-m and other stuff in dapper
<mjg59> ogra_ibook: They're not using the python bindings
<ogra_ibook> ah,k i get only errors about lpi if i start it from commandline
<Robot101> mjg59: you have to admit, making blocking method calls on dbus before showing any UI is broken behaviour anyway
<mjg59> This driver is blatantly not working
<mjg59> Either that or this cable is gash
* mjg59 is reluctant to unplug the adsl to check
<hub> mhz_thinking: Mark said that LP would be released under GPL when it is releasable
<hub> mhz_thinking: that is what he told people to UBZ
<hub> mjg59: where is a bluetooth controller? Can't find at neither on USB nor on PCI
<hub> mjg59: nor the modem
<mjg59> hub: Generally USB
<mjg59> The modem will be hanging off the southbridge
<hub> how will I find it?
<mjg59> Which? The modem or the bluetooth?
<hub> modme
<mjg59> You don't, as such
<hub> ah
<mjg59> It's an MC97 codec
<hub> on the ISA?
<mjg59> No
<mjg59> On the AC97 bus
<mjg59> Easiest way to find out what is to grab ScanModem (google for it)
<hub> ok
<hub> btw, I don't even have a RJ-11 cable
<hub> cheap
<mjg59> Ha
<mjg59> That's pretty poor
<hub> really
<hub> mjg59: would the modem work with free driver?
<mjg59> hub: There are no free drivers
<mjg59> Closest you have is an open kernel part and closed userspace part
<hub> grrr
<mjg59> Run scanmodem, and see what chipset it claims you have
<hub> nevermind
<hub> mjg59: about to do
<hub> mjg59: it claims that it has a pcmcia modem
<hub> LtModem agere/lucent
<mjg59> pcmcia?
<mjg59> Seriously?
<mjg59> Not PCI?
<Amaranth> doesn't the linuxant driver has lots of GPL violations?
<mjg59> Amaranth: Yes
<Amaranth> have the authors of the stolen bits of code been notified?
<mjg59> Yes
#ubuntu-devel 2005-12-31
<Mez> how broken is dapper atm ?
<slomo> Mez: you will die a long, painfull death when updating ;P
<Mez> slomo - why ?
<slomo> Mez: well, works fine for me and many others :)
<Mez> good :D
<Mez> seeing as there arent man big changes anywho
<slomo> mono on ppc is currently the only big breakage i know about
* Mez doesnt use it much
<Mez> or have a PPC
<Mez> blobwars was updated
<hub> locales
<hub> is broken 
<hub> totally
<slomo> hm, works for me
<hub> still does not install here
<Mez> hey hub
<Mez> hows things going
<hub> Mez: fine
<Mez> coo coo :D
<Mez> hows the 770 ?
<hub> fine
<Mez> cool 
<Mez> :D
<Mez> hub - have any news on the updates to n-m for dapper (aka anything been done yet)
<tseng> Mez: 0.5.1 is in dapper..
<hub> it does not install
<hub> filed a bug
<Mez> ah lol
<Mez> so that's gonna break :D
<mjg59> hub: There's a dbus transition going on
<Mez> lol
<Mez> mjg59, and now you tell me :D how much is broke for it ?
<hub> mjg59: nope,
<mjg59> Mez: I don't know. Try installing the current dbus and find out
<mjg59> hub: I'm running the 0.5.1 packages from dapper
<hub> mjg59: it is a different proble,
<Mez> I'm upgrading to dapper :D
<hub> malone 6114
* hub hate the tapping on the trackad
<Mez> hub
<Mez> turn it off
<Mez> i would for mine but i dont know how to for AUPS
<mjg59> hub: Ah, right
<hub> apparently it does not completely
<mjg59> hub: Hang on...
<hub> tpconfig -t 0
<hub> just disable gesture
<Mez> tpconfig: command not found :D
<hub> Mez: universe package
<hub> only for thinkpad
* tseng hands mez `which apt-cache search`
<Mez> hub - ah
<Mez> I'm not using a thinkpad :D
<Mez> lol
<Mez> and /me pokes tseng - the DB is locked atm
<Mez> upgrading nto dapper
<mjg59> Mez: Did you actually laugh out loud then?
<tseng> apt-cache doesnt need a lock.
<Mez> It was more a chuckle
<mjg59> hub: Interesting. n-m still generates NetworkManager-named.conf, but as far as I can tell, nothing uses it
<mjg59> (hngh)
<hub> mjg59: the bind user is missing
<mjg59> hub: No, that's not the bug
<hub> oh
<mjg59>     - Do not depend on bind9 being installed.
<mjg59> (Except it does)
<mjg59> Right. named support has (supposedly) been removed
<mjg59> So what's generating this file...
<mjg59> Oh, nothing
<mjg59> It's ancient
<mjg59> Tum-te-tum...
* Lathiat grins at mjg59 
<Mez> hub
<Mez> any idea how to get past the "locales" problem?
<hub> if I had...
<hub> I don't
* mjg59 points mez at the topic
<Mez> mjg59, apologies - I'm just trying to get a stable system so I can get to work and stop bugzilla moaning at me about MOM merges
<mjg59> hub: Fixed n-m will be there once the buildds have dealt with it
<Mez> whens the planned move to LP btw?
<hub> mjg59: cool
<hub> I could have fixed, but was doing other things
<Mez> hmm - the locales probem is an easy fix ...
<Mez> someones even posted a patch
<Mez> http://bugzilla.ubuntu.com/attachment.cgi?id=5465
<hub> Mez: that is not the problem I have
<Mez> what problem do you have hub ?
<hub> bugz 21489
<Burglaptop> hub: remove locales packages, reinstall 2.3.6 version, upgrade to 2.3.7 and then reinstlal locales
<hub> Burglaptop: were do I find 2.3.6? :-)
<hub> package is removed already
<raphink> elmo: could you add me to katie's whitelist pls ?
<hub> Burglaptop: I'm installing the one from Breezy
<hub> and now locale-gen fails
<hub> commented the bug
<floam> is ATAPI supposed to be working on serial ata via chipsets?
<floam> (in dapper)
<psusi> can anyone point me to where I can read up on how automounting of external media works?  I'm trying to fix it to correctly mount a packet writing mode udf cdrw as read/write
<Mez> psusi, #ubuntu
<psusi> seems to be a bit too technical/theoretical for over there... been trying...
<googleguy> psusi, Ask on #debian.
<googleguy> psusi, Much more technical users in #debian on average
<hub> psusi: here is for ubuntu development
<googleguy> I'm going to guess it's known that the locales package pre-install script dies and kills dist-upgrade, right?
<googleguy> Or should I file a bug
<psusi> well, I'm kind of trying to participate in ubuntu development... packet writing would be nice to support in dapper ;)
<psusi> and the guys in #debian seem to have a chip on their shoulder about ubuntu
<Mez> googleguy - its know and theres a simple fix - when it dies its asking for a folder right?
<Mez> just make the folder
<Mez> psusi
<Mez> some of them do some of them dont
<Mez> but you're asking for support :D#
<Mez> which isnt what this channel is for
<psusi> well, I'm really asking for some pointers to more information to aid development ;)
<googleguy> Mez, I installed flight 2 and did apt-get update && apt-get dist-upgrade. It fails on that package and kills the update. I am trying to see if I need to file a bug against the locales package
<Mez> googleguy, what error does it fail with ?
<psusi> I'm sure there's some kind of daemon that notices the disk and runs pmount... and can be configured somehow.. but I can't figure out where to read up on that...
<psusi> hal seems to just detect it... so there has to be something that listens to hal's notices on dbus and runs pmount
<googleguy> Mez, It just says that the pre-install failed with exit status 1
<googleguy> Meaning something is broken
<googleguy> Fresh install of flight 2
<Mez> googleguy - no other error ?
<googleguy> nope
<Mez> like- before that
<Mez> saying something about a file not found ?
<googleguy> Mez, Sorry, no errors
<Mez> weird
<googleguy> very
<hub> googleguy: see bugzilla bug 21489
<hub> googleguy: with the work around
<hub> Mez: that is the exact same bug
<hub> Mez: form a flight 2 CD it fails because /etc/local.gen has 0 size
<hub> googleguy: put the following line into /etc/locale.gen
<hub> en_CA.UTF-8 UTF-8
<hub> googleguy: and try again to install the package
<googleguy> hub, You are my new hero
<hub> googleguy: I got annoyed by it as well
<hub> it is from Flight CD installation
<googleguy> yes
<womble> Even shorter: "echo en_US.UTF-8 UTF-8" >> /etc/locale.gen; /usr/sbin/locale-gen
<googleguy> womble, I used echo to put it in there just like you did. I just didn't run locale-gen
<womble> locale-gen is the command of interest.  Quicker than reinstalling the package just to get it to run that one command anyway. <grin>
<hub> womble: the problem is that in my case locales was NOT installing at all
<womble> hub: locales fails to install if you have an empty /etc/locale.gen?  How... quaint.
<hub> womble: yep
<hub> womble: and that is the case from a Flight CD install from scratch
<hub> womble: I installed my new laptop Friday
<hub> and got into trouble with that
* womble avoids those problems by not running development software on critical machines
<Sepheebear> invoke-rc.d looks to be b0rked when it comes to cups
<googleguy> it's pretty disconcerning for a new dev trying out flight cd2 to update and find that the update fails
<googleguy> time to reboot... the update is finished and I got a shiny new kernel
<Sepheebear> maybe its just cupsys
<Mez> anyone around who wants to upload a package to main for me ?
<Mez> cupsys is a lil borked :D but it;s easy to fix
<rikai> hey, cool running locale-gen solved my problem too >.>;
<donna> hi, i have a problem with my PCMCIA modem. i insert the card and syslog reports all is well. a check of /var/run/stab confirms this with "0 serial serial_cs 0 ttyS0 4 64". however when i go to dial i get a               "Can't get terminal parameters: Input/output error" next line "Connect script failed. any ideas?
<Sepheebear> Mez: what's up with cupsys?
<Mez> Sepheebear, wont uninstall when trying to dist-upgrade :D
<Mez> errors out on trying to stop it
<Mez> cause the init.d script fails
<Mez> I just erm ...
<Mez> forced the init.dscript not to error out
<Sepheebear> ooh
<Sepheebear> so gotta rip it out and put it back in eh? sounds good
<netdur> I don't know where to ask! so... do anyone knows where to read more about "Custom Versions" offer from Canonical?
<Burglaptop> netdur: custom versions?
<netdur> ah! like what hp did
<Burglaptop> netdur: afaik, the custom version of Ubuntu that HP did was merged into Breezy
<Burglaptop> netdur: hence there are no current "custom versions" of Ubuntu at the moment, that I know of
* desrt slaps Burglaptop with a badly-converted .odt file.  "merry fucking christmas" :D
<Burglaptop> desrt: you having fun with abiword?
<desrt> no.
<desrt> just saw your bug report :)
<Burglaptop> I promised hub I would file that report at UBZ
<desrt> i was talking to him about it earlier and confirmed it
<netdur> I mean, people who wants *own* "custom versions"... where to go?
<desrt> but you must realise that abw -> odt -> abw again is a lossy process
<Burglaptop> desrt: yes, I realize that
<Burglaptop> you seen my long running blog conversation with the abiword developers
<Burglaptop> ?
<desrt> ya.  that's what drew my attention to your bug
<Burglaptop> for people so smart, they seem not to get it
<Burglaptop> maybe I am not explaining myself well enough
<desrt> everyone understands your argument
<desrt> but there are serious technical problems with it
<Burglaptop> yes, I realize that. I am arguing on a social level, not a technical one
<desrt> abiword switching to odt by default is throwing their users to the wolves
<Burglaptop> remember, I do marketing/sales and documentation, so technical is not my area of expertise
<desrt> socially i agree with you
<desrt> but the technology just _isn't there_ right now
<desrt> odt-by-default is great... if and only if the odt import/export works at least as well as the native file format (which it currently does not)
<Burglaptop> that is why the bug report is conditional on when the technical side is there
<desrt> right
<desrt> you're sort of giving the appearance of suggesting that this be done now/soon
<Burglaptop> ah, ok
<Burglaptop> I should be given the impression that it the problem should be dealt with now
<Burglaptop> s/given/giving
<desrt> to quote your bug report:
<desrt> Abiword 2.4.2 is going to included OpenDocument support finally. Therefor
<desrt> abiword should now save to OpenDocument format by default, rather than .abiword.
<Burglaptop> yes
<Burglaptop> if 2.4.2 cannot do that, then that should be noted in teh bug report
<desrt> i noted that.
<Burglaptop> excellent, thankjs'
<desrt> it's definitely an interesting question
<desrt> i mean....
<desrt> when people talk about websites/pages they don't say "html document"
<desrt> it's just a webpage
<Amaranth> saving in odt isn't lossless
<desrt> having the same for word processor documents would be very nice
<Burglaptop> Amaranth: sadly, we are discovering this
<desrt> i agree with you completely there
<Amaranth> and iirc the standard for excelalike doesn't even mention how to do math
<Amaranth> so you either read OOo source to find how they do it or you make up your own way
<Burglaptop> Amaranth: yes, another bug in ODT. But not a reason to prevent it from becoming a standard
<Amaranth> Burglaptop: If Microsoft is serious about their standard I'd rather use it.
<Burglaptop> Amaranth: why?
<Amaranth> Burglaptop: They 1) know what they're doing and 2) will actually support it in Office
<Burglaptop> have you seen the actual xml from docx?
<Burglaptop> it is nasty and doesn
<Burglaptop> t build on standard existing xml
<Burglaptop> like dublin core metadata
<netdur> I wouldn't trust ms for that, they are known to keep changing mind... how I can be sure that my finnance documents that I saved now will be fully readable after five years (word 97 to word xp)?
<Amaranth> netdur: If it's an open standard _something_ will read it.
<Burglaptop> Amaranth: as long as we don't have submarine patents
<Amaranth> Burglaptop: If you're worrying about patents turn off your computer.
<Amaranth> Burglaptop: So many things you're using right now are violating someone's patent.
<Burglaptop> I recognize that
<sivang> morning all
<netdur> I think evince should view opendocument the same way firefox view html
<Burglaptop> netdur: it already can view ppt
<sivang> happy holidays alls
<sivang> Burglaptop: Corey, 'sup? thanks for your wiki emails :)
<Burglaptop> Amaranth: ms is more likely to use their patents than Sun or IBM
<Burglaptop> against "us"
<Burglaptop> sivang: I moved that spec
<sivang> Burglaptop: cool, thanks
<sivang> Burglaptop: how's your spot of Canada today?
<Burglaptop> not bad, little rainy but no snow
<netdur> have ever ms used patent thing against anyone?
<Burglaptop> netdur: not yet
<Burglaptop> mostly ms has been on the receiving end of patent lawsuits
<sivang> heh
<netdur> did ms "steal" stuff from open source?
<Burglaptop> they have "borrowed" a few BSD-licensed things
<Burglaptop> Amaranth: I like OpenDoc because it has big friends behind it, friends who like us
<netdur> can mozilla.org sue ms over xaml?
<Burglaptop> netdur: moz would need patents, which they don
<Burglaptop> t have
<netdur> so what hold them back?
<Burglaptop> netdur: who MS?
<netdur> ah
<Burglaptop> the patent war is a cold war. Everybody has patents and nobody wants to fire the first shot
<Burglaptop> most of the big companies have cross licensed with each other
<Burglaptop> ironically, MS could be a good friend in the coming years on patent reform in the US because it has been hit with so many lawsuits
<womble> And there's enough skeletons in MS' closet that shooting at free software is likely to bring some FOSS-friendly big guns down on them
<womble> Burglaptop: MS losing lawsuits doesn't worry them -- they're used to it.
<Burglaptop> womble: no company likes to lose lawsuits
<Burglaptop> and they have stated publically that they are getting annoyed about it
<womble> But their answer will be to buy litigants out, not give away one of their biggest potential cash cows
<Burglaptop> think of a bear of being stung by bees, it is going to get annoyed eventually
<Mez> still up Corey ?
<Burglaptop> Mez: it is only midnight here
<Mez> Mon Dec 26 07:44:33 UTC 2005
<Mez> lol :D
<womble> I can't see them throwing away their only stranglehold over "Open"XML (once it gets ECMA "standardised") by castrating patent reform.  Their office business couldn't stand a war against a completely compatible Free office suite for very long
* Mez sitll has nightmares about UBZ
<netdur> think... they could gave up on "open xml" and make ms office use another doc formate!
<Burglaptop> womble: once the door opens for patent reform, I think we can have a say. Observe Europe (a battle which is not won yet, merely postponed)
<womble> netdur: Not unless they want to lose business from places like .ma.us
<Burglaptop> I don't much are why they want to support patent refrom and more open standards. I just care that they arrive at that place
<netdur> I think about ms as marketing company that happen to work on software domain... nowadayw whatever prefix "open" is selling point... we don't what future have... but the history says "don't trust them"
<Burglaptop> netdur: precisely why I think OpenDoc is the way forward
<Burglaptop> any Japanese speakers here?
<Mez> Burglaptop, a little- why
<Burglaptop> Mez: can I forward you an email that I have no idea what it says. It is likely spam
<Mez> lol
<Mez> hmm
<Mez> probably wont be able to read it
<Mez> lol
<Mez> I speak a little
<Mez> not read :D
<robitaille> 90% of my emails are in russian for some unknown reason...
<robitaille> s/emails/spam
<Burglaptop> this one is well enough formatted that I think it might not be spam
<desrt> mezmezmez
<Mez> desrtdesrtdesrtdesrt
<Mez> hows things ?
<desrt> reasonably good
<desrt> did you have a mezzy chzistmas?
<Mez> good good
<Mez> desrt - it was ok :D involved lots of vodka :D
<desrt> hah
<Mez> desrt - /query
<desrt> good for some, i suppose
<Mez> so hows life going - how was your Xmas
* desrt is quite confused
<desrt> channel or /query? :p
<Mez> I /query'd you :d
<desrt> yes.  and i've been talking to you there
<Mez> no
<Mez> you've been talking to me here
<Mez> lol
<desrt> oh fucking christ
<desrt> freenode is being assy
<Mez> I havent had a reply via /query
<desrt> and blocking my messages
<desrt> this irc network is bloody useless
<Mez> ah lol :d you need to ID to nickserv
<desrt> can't be assed
<desrt> i said to you the following:
<desrt> "no.  been on vacation from open source"
<desrt> and "how did things shake down with the lady?"
<Mez> lol
<desrt> no.  i cannot.
<Mez> the lady - meh - things went weird lol
<desrt> ya.  they were pretty weird already
<desrt> she cried wolf?
<Mez> no ... just things... messed up... lol
<Mez> long story
<desrt> well... i'd say "either she was telling the truth or she was not"
<desrt> but i have a feeling that the grey area between those two points is what makes up the long story
<desrt> my christmas was fine :)
<Mez> no actually
<Mez> it was just awkwardness
<desrt> i'm definitely getting more confused
<desrt> crikey.  wait
<desrt> are you up late or early?
<Mez> late :D
<desrt> hahahah
<desrt> ok
<desrt> *i* am about to go to sleep
<desrt> s/about to go/going/
<desrt> cheers :D
<sivang> Hey Mez ! You were gone for sometime after UBZ , where were you? :)
<Mez> sivang - long story - had no net access - was homeless for a while
<Mez> have a place sorted now :D so I can finally get back to doing things 
* Mez dances
<Mez> It's nice to be back
<Mez> lets hope people welcome me back
<Mez> hows things been sivang ?
<Burglaptop> hmm http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/KDE
<Mez> why hmm ?
<Burglaptop> interested proposal to deal with KDE in Fedora core
<Mez> sounds like interfering
<sivang> Mez: fine for me, busy over head at work, stressing myself to be able to do some Ubuntu work ...
<sivang> Mez: homeless? wow , why were you homeless?
<sivang> Mez: so now you're back to backporting? :)
<Mez> sivang - homeless was a long story :D
<sivang> Mez: I see :) nevermind then
<Mez> sivan - wasnt it you I caught the plain back with ?
<sivang> Mez: exactly! I was then worried when you didn't come back online about your whereabouts :) thought maybe you lost the train ticket, or they didn't let you in
<Mez> lol
<Mez> nah - was fine :D
<Robot101> wtf, I had dvb working yesterday and now udev decides not to give me a sodding /dev/dvb directory
<Robot101> gr8
<jsgotangco> cheers
<sivang> hey pitti , aren't you in vacatio today? :)
<siretart> merry christmas!
<siretart> does anyone know if it is possible to boot via grub with / and /boot in a lvm?
<Mithrandir> sire	it's not
<siretart> ok. so I definitly need /boot on a normal partition. thanks
<jsgotangco> being online is hardly a vacation :)
<sivang> siretart: not with /boot
<sivang> siretart: make sure /boot is outside of the LVM
<sivang> merry christmas siretart !
<sivang> and jsgotangco 
<sivang> :)
<siretart> :)
<jsgotangco> bah humbug :) hehehe joke
<pitti> hi sivang
<pitti> sivang: I am, right :)
<slomo_> hi pitti :)
<Yagisan> Happy Holidays pitti
<sivang> pitti: merry chirstmas then! have fun
<pitti> slomo_: hi
<pitti> Yagisan: thank you, for you too!
<mdke_> LOL
<mdke_> Setting up xserver-xorg-input-synaptics (0.14.3+seriouslythistime-0ubuntu1
<Lathiat> heh
<zakame> woo
<mjg59> Hm. Why has "Search and Indexing" ended up under Applications/Accessories?
<SEJeff> mjg59, That should be a preference shouldn't it
<ogra_ibook> for me its in places in a recent dapper
<ogra_ibook> but i think it will go away completely, now that its integrated in nautilus
<mjg59> ogra_ibook: I think the preferences are still required
<ogra_ibook> hmm, but they should be in the filemanager preferencec instead ...
<SEJeff> search and indexing prefs are for beagle
<SEJeff> Proof is in /usr/share/applications/beagle-settings.desktop
<ogra_ibook> oh, yes, indeed ... no mono on ppc in dapper currently ...
<ogra_ibook> yes, these should be in the preferences menu#
<SEJeff> Thats sad, beagle is the "killer app" if used with sweetness like deskbar applet
<SEJeff> ogra_ibook, Do you use the native broadcom drivers?
<SEJeff> I noticed they are included in the recent dapper kernels
<ogra_ibook> oh, i'm sure it will get solved ... the mono build is just ftbfs on ppc64 currently
<ogra_ibook> SEJeff, i use the latest trunk version of bcm43xx
<ogra_ibook> running it with less than 54Mbit runs pretty stable ... 
<SEJeff> And I take that to mean it is working perfectly.
<ogra_ibook> not perfectly ...
<mjg59> SEJeff: A-ha ha ha.
<mjg59> No, they're some way from perfect yet
<ogra_ibook> i have "hicups" with 54Mbit and a bad lag with other high rates ...
<SEJeff> well I meant usably. I saw the lkml post from the bcm developer saying he was posting using them
<SEJeff> no oops or anything scary though?
<mjg59> They're usable, but still flaky
<ogra_ibook> but using them at low rates is possible and runs quite stable since some days here
<SEJeff> Good to know
<mjg59> Biggest problem is that we have no permission to redistribute the firmware
<ogra_ibook> the odd thing is that they dont really offer a wireless interface, so checking things with wavemon or other tools is impossible
<mjg59> That's the devicescape stack
<ogra_ibook> yup
<mjg59> It's not fully hooked up with wireless extensions yet
<ogra_ibook> i hope it gets stable enough until our final kernel build ...
<SEJeff> But you could do like the msttcorefonts and download them, right?
<ogra_ibook> i'm fine with using the apple firmware for now ... at least its better than carrying a usbstick around ...
<mjg59> SEJeff: Not if your only internet connection is wireless :)
<SEJeff> true, but that would be the best bet
<mjg59> We can't distribute it a tall
<mjg59> But there are probably ways of hacking around that, yes
<SEJeff> And I'm going to guess that monitor mode won't work anytime soon
<mjg59> Monitor mode works, I think
<mjg59> Since it's significantly easier to get going than anything that lets you actually move packets
<SEJeff> So kismet and aircrack allow you to crack wireless networks, but the driver won't let you access them for very long
<mjg59> Pretty much
<SEJeff> nice
<ogra_ibook> network-manager didnt work here for me ...
<siretart> does the new dbus really require new udev?
<siretart> I'm still having trouble with 2.6.15, and I'm still debugging that
<mjg59> Network-manager works really nicely here now
<mjg59> We should sort out what it does in the absence of policy and then stick it in main
<siretart> no, it doesn't. but it requires newer lsb* packages
<pvanhoof> Removing cupsys-driver-gimpprint ...
<pvanhoof>  * Restarting Common Unix Printing System: cupsd invoke-rc.d: initscript cupsys, action "force-reload" failed.
<pvanhoof> same when installing it
<robertj> anyone know what causes an empty Applications menu in dapper?
<robertj> it pops up the menu and then all the entries go poof
<jordi> robertj: pkill gam_server
<ogra_ibook> but be careful on amd64 with this ;) 
<ogra_ibook> it makes my system jump to 100% cpu usage which i can only fix by killing the panel ... which in turn starts gam_server on restart :)
<ogra_ibook> works fine on x86 and ppc though
<robertj> jordi:  thanks
<jordi> ogra_ibook: fun :)
<robertj> bug already filed?
<ogra_ibook> yup
<robertj> cool
<ogra_ibook> its a old one 
<robertj> brb hopefully
* robertj crosses fingers
<nasdaq7> i was wondering: if it says open source, does it mean free and open source or can it be shareware and open source / commercial and open source?
<mhz> the latter
<tseng> "free" is alot more specific than "open"
<tseng> in context
<desrt> and ironically, "open" is a lot more specific than "free" in other contexts
<tseng> yes :)
* desrt likes "Free"
<nasdaq7> so if you'd like to charge something for your program, you can release it as open source
<nasdaq7> but charge still
<tseng> you can charge for free software as well
<desrt> you can charge for Free software, even
<nasdaq7> now i am a .net developer
<nasdaq7> is developing in ubuntu easier than .net?
* desrt raises an eyebrow
<desrt> ubuntu, like windows, has a lot of different programming environments
<tseng> including .Net
<desrt> (.net is one of them)
* desrt jinxes tseng
<tseng> i said it first!
<tseng> according to my client
<desrt> according to mine too
<nasdaq7> there are so many things that microsoft hides in it's documentation - i was wondering if ubuntu / linux hides as much code?
<desrt> *its, and no.
<tseng> some things may be poorly documented
<desrt> gtk, for example has good documentation
<tseng> but nothing is "hidden"
<tseng> intentionally
<desrt> but even when the documentation is lacking you always have the possibility of looking at the source to find out exactly how something works
<nasdaq7> what seems interesting is the step on intellectual property debate
<desrt> it's not possible to keep secrets
<nasdaq7> i read somewhere
<desrt> please don't use the phrase "intellectual property"
<desrt> it's misleading and inaccurate
<tseng> "software patents" might be what you are after
<nasdaq7> you can't write 30 lines without infringing on someone's patent
<tseng> is there a question here?
<desrt> fortunately only a small minority of countries have software patents
<nasdaq7> with ubuntu that is not that a big a problem?
<desrt> nasdaq7; i don't think anybody honestly beleves in using software patents
<desrt> nasdaq7; except those who have nothing to lose
<desrt> nasdaq7; it's like nuclear weapons
<nasdaq7> :)
<nasdaq7> isn't there a source archive for ubuntu code?
<tseng> of course
<desrt> nasdaq7; if microsoft tried to press their patents against us, 10 other companies would press their patents against microsoft
<desrt> nasdaq7; with software patents nobody wins
<desrt> nasdaq7; so just like nuclear weapons, the only winning choice is to not use them
<nasdaq7> yes
<nasdaq7> isn't there a source archive for ubuntu code?
<desrt> ya
<desrt> it's wide open for everyone to see and modify their own copies of
<desrt> and distribute their changes on their own if they want
<nasdaq7> is it part of the distribution?
<desrt> (of course, random people can't make changes to the official ubuntu version)
<nasdaq7> or a web site?
<tseng> either
<desrt> for any package that you can install (apt-get install packagename) you can also type 'apt-get source packagename'
<nasdaq7> liek sourceforge.net?
<desrt> and that will download and unpack the sourcecode
<desrt> which you can then modify if you wish and then build your own version of the package from
<tseng> packages.ubuntu.com has sources
<nasdaq7> ok
<nasdaq7> thanx
<nasdaq7> well thanx guys
<desrt> np.
<nasdaq7> enjoy your coding :)
<desrt> cheers
<nasdaq7> ok
<desrt> "intellectual property" really annoys me
<desrt> particularly when it is used by the innocent
<tseng> unclued people writing about it on websites so random people pick up on it is worse
<tseng> yes.. "the innocent" as it were
<desrt> well
<desrt> it's clued evil people who continue using it and embedding it in everyone's minds.... 
<desrt> it's definitely intentional :/
<desrt> total newspeak
<tseng> minpat
<desrt> ?
<tseng> ministry of patents
<desrt> ah :)
<desrt> minipat wouldn't it be?
<tseng> i thought it was mintru, etc
<desrt> hmm
<Treenaks> facecrime.net?
<desrt> google has 20600 hits for mintruth and 37700 fir mintruth
<desrt> *mini/min
<desrt> so mintruth has it by a factor of almost 2.... but for google that's pretty close
<desrt> i wonder if there was a printing of it with it written a different way
<tseng> newspeak dictionary, 12th edition?
<desrt> was such a book published?
<desrt> (in the real world)
<tseng> no, it was being written during the course of the plot
<desrt> well, yes
<tseng> http://www.newspeakdictionary.com/
<tseng> but thanks to freaks and the internet
<desrt> but i thought you meant that someone released it in the realworld :p
<desrt> i'm already at this site :)
<desrt> it has neither
<desrt> http://www.newspeakdictionary.com/ns-mis.html
<desrt> this is nice :p
<desrt> either this site was written by a bunch of people who manage to get along with each other or written by one person with very interesting political views :)
<tseng> i read that 10 minutes ago
<tseng> i thought it was tounge-in-cheek
<desrt> it's extremely accurate though
<desrt> even the ones that i don't totally agree with i know to be real beliefs held by non-insane people :)
<desrt> the only odd thing is that i can't think of a single person who holds the combination of all the beliefs expressed on that page :)
<tseng> feminist is my favorite
<tseng> that or progressive
<desrt> 'intellectual property' is conspicuously missing
<desrt> the doublespeak page is interesting too
<desrt> Bust / Massive arrest by the state - When US police go on rampage and incarcerate large numbers of people during the "War on Drugs" it is considered a great victory ... When China arrest large numbers of people for trying to bring down the government, it is considered to be a barbaric act against basic human rights.
<desrt> Affirmative Action / Racial Discrimination.... Campaign contribution / bribe.... Educated / Brainwashed.... etc
<psusi> pitti, are you around?  I was told you are the man to talk to about the internals of pmount and gnome-volume-manager
<tseng> psusi: he is on vacation
<Amaranth> wanna see something weird?
<Amaranth> sudo whoami
<Amaranth> then sudo echo `whoami`
<tseng> im not sure thats weird at all
<tseng> `` is a shell function
<tseng> echo is a program
<tseng> this is the same reason you cant do sudo echo "blah" > file where you normally cant write to file
<Amaranth> tseng: you can do that with sh -c though
<tseng> sure, but the command line you give sudo isnt interpreted as a shell command
<psusi> tseng, if you escape the > with a \ you can ;)
<tseng> psusi: good one
<tseng> psusi: ... no
<psusi> it is interpreted as a shell command, but if you don't escape the >, then the shell interptets it first before running sudo with the rest of the command
<tseng> escaping the > doesnt do anything useful in the case i described
<tseng> unless you really wanted to echo a >
<psusi> how so?  it prevents the redirection from happening until sudo changes to root
<tseng> it doesnt redirect at all
<tseng> it literally echos >
<psusi> hrm... I managed to do that once somehow... let me see if I can remember the right way to escape it
<tseng> bringing you back to sh -c ""
<psusi> or quote it... maybe it was with quotes
<tseng> sudo sh -c "whatever the hell you want"
<psusi> that works too... 
<tseng> Amaranth already mentioned this :)
<psusi> by gosh... now it comes back to me... yea... sudo invokes the command with the rest of the arguments, so you have to use sh -c ;)
<psusi> anyone else familliar with the internals of gnome-volume-manager and pmount by chance? ;)
<tseng> desrt is a pretty elite hacker in that area
<tseng> not specifically pmount
<tseng> but hal goodness
<psusi> I think it falls more in with hal... I'm trying to modify the hal and gnome-volume-manager to pmount a packet write mode udf cdrw in rw mode using the pktcdvd device instead of the real underlying device
<psusi> is he around?
<Amaranth> whoa, i have no idea what you just said
<psusi> hehe.... I've been fooling wrond with the udftools package... there is a kernel module that allows you to create a new device that allows full read/write access to a cdrw using packet writing, so you can put a full read/write filesystem on the disc and use it like a big floppy
<psusi> but gnome-volume-manager wants to mount it with the real device in read only mode when you insert the disk
<psusi> so I'm trying to figure out how to fix that to behave properly and maybe get that fix into dapper
<tseng> pitti wrote some code to mount devices specially via a dm-crypt device
<tseng> it might be a start
<psusi> I found an article on the web about that I've been reading... very interesting
<hub> any plan to put a more recent ath_hal ?
#ubuntu-devel 2006-01-01
<floam> has anyone here gotten a serial ata plextor drive to work with via chipsets? I've got a bugzilla bug proceeding as normally but I'm curious if it's actually supposed to work at all in dapper
<floam> s/drive/dvd drive/
<qwert1> hi
<desrt> psusi; i found a fix for the fglrx problems if you're interested
<desrt> linked to in 20587.  please test and share your results in that bug.
<hub> hey desrt 
<desrt> hello hubert
<desrt> Xgl is fun :)
<desrt> nice + fast but has some odd errors with transparency
<hub> desrt: the closed development from SuSE?
<desrt> ?
<hub> desrt: s/SuSE/Novell/
<desrt> i'm confused
<desrt> xgl is a fdoism, not a novellism
<hub> ah
<desrt> http://www.freedesktop.org/wiki/Software/Xgl
<desrt> this one
<hub> because there have a been some sort of disagreement
<hub> desrt: hold, I'll give you some links
<desrt> ya.  i have no idea what's going on either
<hub> http://aseigo.blogspot.com/2005/12/bit-more-on-xgl.html
<desrt> between xegl, xgl, in-kernel gl support, xrender, cairo, glitz, ...
<desrt> so many different bits of the picture and nobody seems to know how they are going to fit together
<hub> desrt: in short Novell hired a few Xgl hackers and decided to work behind closed doors, making the other people working on this on thei own
<desrt> weird
<desrt> i'm gonna read a bit.  hold on.
<hub> desrt: and KDE hackers like Aaron Seigo started ranting and raving about that
<hub> desrt: look at the recent desktop_architect list
<hub> a bit like Gtk MacOS X
<desrt> so
<desrt> novell is trying to keep this all to themselves for (i guess) 2 reasons
<desrt> 1) they maintain complete control over it throughout its incubation period and when they release it to the world it will be mature enough that nobody will really have any chance to influence it
<desrt> 2) they'll get to have it integrated into NLD first and everyone else will lag a release cycle or two
<desrt> this makes a lot of sense
<hub> crap
<hub> network manager does not react to my wireless card
<hub> the PCCard one
<hub> not the atheros shite
<desrt> heh.  google for 'desktop_architects list' gets linus
<hub> same list
<hub> @osdl
<desrt> nod.
<desrt> i'm there
<desrt> this is very high traffic
<hub> not lately
<hub> it has been for a few days
<hub> with Linus troll
<desrt> you saw nat's reply?
<hub> sure I did
<hub> I'm subscribed to the list
<desrt> the way he presents it it's more like someone went off and worked on their own and is in the process of getting his changes ready to merge
<hub> my boss even asked my why I didn't post using my work address
<Burglaptop> hub: you work for Xandros now?
<hub> yeah
<hub> that the only job I got an offer for
<hub> that's why I moved
<Burglaptop> what do you do there?'
<desrt> it's because everyone else heard you're french
<hub> Burglaptop: software developer
<hub> on their proprietary server product
<desrt> that seems like a strange fit
<hub> in Qt
<desrt> even more strange :)
<hub> desrt: well, could be worse. I could write C# on Windows
<Burglaptop> true. I sell a FC4 based product
<hub> at least it is a Linux job
<Burglaptop> hub: feel the same way
<hub> that's why I installed Ubuntu on my laptop :-)
<hub> :-)
<hub> (I paid for it)
<psusi> desrt, which fglrx problem?
<desrt> psusi; were you not the person in here about a week ago annoying the hell out of everyone about how your videocard wasn't working? :p
<psusi> hehe... daniels told me it could be done without ATI's damned drivers using the mesa ones instead ;)
<psusi> right now I'm working on getting hal and gnome-volume-manager to auto mount a packet write mode cdrw correctly... finally managed to mess with the hal config files to get the drive to auto mount read/write, but now I can't figure out why it doesn't show up on the desktop
<psusi> even though it is mounted under /media
* psusi wishes he could find some good documentation on the hal and gnome-volume-manager
<MasterTsunami> is there supposed to be a bittorrent tracker running by default in dapper?
<crimsun> probably something overlooked, though it does only listen on localhost
<MasterTsunami> yeah that i noticed as well
<MasterTsunami> still, i would think most users would want a client only, and not the tracker
<MasterTsunami> perhaps i should file a bug?
<Burglaptop> MasterTsunami: raise it on ubuntu-devel mailing list
<psusi> I swear I've seen that brought up before... maybe it was on the dapper forums not the mailing list...
* psusi wonders what good a localhost only torrent tracker is
<MasterTsunami> i wouldnt have noticed it had i not restarted my laptop and saw "Shutting down bittorrentTracker"
<MasterTsunami> and then my eyes went O_O
<MasterTsunami> i have to say though, xorg7 is fasssst :D
<Burglaptop> MasterTsunami: are you going to post to ubuntu devel or should I?
<MasterTsunami> In the forums?
<psusi> xorg7 likes to hard lock when I /etc/init.d/gdm restart
<MasterTsunami> I'll post Burglaptop ;D
<Burglaptop> MasterTsunami: cheers, ok
<MasterTsunami> fglrx is kinda funky with xorg7 too; doesn't like to shutdown :/
<psusi> also it seems that xorg7 thinks that the forward/back ( far left/far right ) buttons on microsoft intellimice are mouse buttons 8 and 9 instead of 6 and 7... few others complaining about it on the forums
<MasterTsunami> well, i've never gotten the mouse numbering; there just seems to be too much variance by distribution, mouse, etc.
<psusi> I don't get why it would change from release to release
<psusi> the thing only HAS 7 buttons... even says so in xorg.conf... so why on earth does xorg think I'm pressing buttons 8 and 9?  heh
<MasterTsunami> lol
<psusi> oh well, a little xmodmap trickery fixes it... 
<Burglaptop> psusi: you filed a bug? This is also not a support channel
<psusi> Burglaptop, going to tomorrow if someone else hasn't already...
<psusi> there... bugs away!
<smallfoot> guys help me!
<smallfoot> crimsun has ban me from channels!
<crimsun> smallfoot: you're being a nuisance (trolling) in these channels, and you've been muzzled.
<smallfoot> muzzled fo shizzle mah nizzle?
<smallfoot> lololol
<smallfoot> cmon unban me!
<smallfoot> fo sheezy ya sleezy
<smallfoot> im snoop-doggy muzzled
* mode/#ubuntu-devel [+o fabbione]  by ChanServ
<smallfoot> ok
<smallfoot> i surrender
* mode/#ubuntu-devel [+b *!*@*.041-5-73746f7.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se]  by fabbione
* smallfoot was kicked off #ubuntu-devel by fabbione (fabbione)
<crimsun> thanks, fabbione :)
* mode/#ubuntu-devel [-o fabbione]  by fabbione
<fabbione> np
<jsgotangco> :D
<method> Hi. Should I mention an annoying bug in Dapper here, or just register it?
<Burglaptop> method: just file it
<method> Burglaptop, will do.
<Burglaptop> method: unless you think it needs a great deal of dicussion regarding the solution
<method> No, I thought it might be trivial.
<method> But annoying.
<Treenaks> jdub: http://muttscomics.com/art/images/daily/121305.gif
<tuhl> as far I have seen dbus migration is completed
<tuhl> when will we get the new gnome packages?
<zakame> evening devs :)
<tepsipakki> how come there is no libnspr4_1.7.12-1ubuntu2 for i386, only for amd64?
<tepsipakki> mozilla isn't installable because of this (dapper)
<zakame> hm, 'coz it's not built yet? lemme check the buildLogs
<tepsipakki> it's old..
<tepsipakki> amd64-version built a month ago ;)
<zakame> hm other reasons then ;)
<tuhl> hi - when will we see the new dbus 0.6 GNOME packages?
<jsgotangco> its being done 
<ogra_ibook> already there
<tuhl> ok thanks
<tuhl> after an update to the latest package in depper my applicaiotn menu does not contain any entries
<ogra> killall gam_server
<tuhl> it only blinks very short with displaying all entries and contains no entry after taht
<ogra> tuhl, try the above command
<tuhl> ogra: now it works
<tuhl> what is the reason for that? wrong starting order?
<tuhl> gnome-power manager crashes aswell
<ogra> nope, its a bug in gamin
<ogra> will be fixed eventually during dapper development
<ogra> the fun of a devel release :)
<tuhl> what about gnome-power-manager?
<Lathiat> might be a dbus thing?
<Lathiat> hrm no 0.6 yet, maybe not
<tuhl> cupsd does not start anymore aswell
<ogra> g-p-m is running flawlwee on my amd64 lappie and the ibook i have ... whats your issue ? 
<tuhl> The Application "gnome-power-manager" has quit unexpectedly.
<Lathiat> try starting it on a konsole and see what kind of messages it spits out
<ogra> or start it in a termial if you dont use the k prefixed apps :P
<tuhl>  gnome-power-manager
<tuhl> /usr/bin/gnome-power-manager(5836): libnotify: Error connecting to session bus: Unable to determine the address of the message bus
<tuhl> ** ERROR **: Cannot initialise libnotify!
<tuhl> aborting...
<ogra> your libinotify is outdated or your g-p-m binary isnt up to date ...
<Lathiat> ogra: hahaha
<Lathiat> i said konsole without thinking about it
<Lathiat> signs im truely lost ;p
<ogra> heh
<ogra> tuhl, it should work fine with all apps up to date, look whats outdated
<tuhl> g-p-m is 0.1.2-2
<tuhl> libnotofy 0.2.2-1ubuntu1
<tuhl> no further updates available vi snaptic
<tuhl> synaptic
<tuhl> ogra: any ideas?
<ogra> not really 
<ogra> as i said, its all running fine here
<tuhl> what might be wrong with cupssys?
<Robot101> meh
<Robot101> I got udev from breezy, it made me devices in /dev/dvb/ once
<Robot101> s/breezy/dapper/
<Robot101> now it only makes the /dev/dvb0.dvr0 ones
<sivang> hi Robot101 
<Robot101> hola
<sivang> Robot101: Hola! :-) Can I ask you something on #dbus?
<Robot101> sure
<zyga> evening :)
<sivang> evening zyga 
<floam> BenC: should I bother reporting my unsuccess with sata_via's ATAPI support upstream?
<BenC> floam: yeah
<floam> BenC: ok
<floam> I was sort of hoping it was something Ubuntu was doing wrong, but it seems not so now
<floam> googling shows people on SuSE, Gentoo with the same thing on sata_via
<\sh> Burgwork: no problem with wine
<\sh> brb
#ubuntu-devel 2006-12-25
<kalila> Hello.
<kalila> we are a group of Arabic Linux users, some have made distributions in the past. We are looking into starting a ubuntu based Arabic distribution
<kalila> there is some documentation out there. I'm wondering what kind of support and help we will get from the official ubuntu, whether we can register is as a ubuntu subproject. Or if there were any such attempts with other languages
<kalila> (am I in the right channel?)
* LarstiQ only knows about baltix, https://launchpad.net/distros/baltix
<kalila> what mailing list do you recommand for this discussion?
<LarstiQ> kalila: I'm really not in the know, but I'd start at the ubuntu arabic translators: https://launchpad.net/people/ubuntu-ol10n-ar
<kalila> yeah many of us are from there
<LarstiQ> got that covered then ;)
<LarstiQ> kalila: have you searched mailing list archives for similar enquiries?
<kalila> nope - paging :)
<Burgundavia> anybody tested the dailys recently?
<nauj27> hi
<soulrider> hi
<soulrider> how cna i submit a pacjage ?
<soulrider> some are outdated and i can compile a deb of th elatest version
<_ion> Are you sure Feisty doesn't contain a recent version of the package in question?
<soulrider> no
<soulrider> how can i know ?
<stgraber> packages.ubuntu.com
<soulrider> so packages are only being updated for feisty and not for edgy ?
<wasabi_> That's basically how it works, yes.
<stgraber> only bug fix are sent to edgy
<wasabi_> With some exceptions involving security and what not.
<stgraber> except backports of course
<soulrider> yes
<soulrider> even the one ion feisty is outdated
<soulrider> http://packages.ubuntu.com/feisty/kde/filelight latest version fixes crashes, especially the one that makes the program crash everytime you close it :P
<yipe> Merry Christmas Developers! Thank you so much for my favorite distro!
<yipe> it's all because of you guys that we have such a wonder, easy to use distro, and it's because of you that we can all have such a pleasant experience using our computers
<yipe> s/wonder/wonderful
<yipe> Thank you a million times for all your hard work. Merry Christmas 
<Riddell> soulrider: check if debian has the newer version, if not make an updated package and submit to revu and poke someone to look at it (on #kubuntu-devel if it's KDE)
<soulrider> Riddell: how cna i check if debian has an updated package ?
<Riddell> soulrider: packages.debian.org
<soulrider> Riddell: its outdated
<Adri2000> soulrider: add the debian deb-src and use apt-cache madison
<soulrider> Adri2000: im sorry but im gonna need some guidance here
<Adri2000> in your /etc/apt/sources.list
<soulrider> i already checked
<Adri2000> in mine there is a line deb-src http://ftp.debian.org/debian/ unstable main non-free contrib
<soulrider> and there isnt an updated version on debian
<Adri2000> ah, "outdated" was the package?
<soulrider> no
<soulrider> package is
<soulrider> Filelight
<soulrider> but in ubuntu and debian
<Adri2000> yes yes :p
<soulrider> theres only old packages
<siretart> soulrider: you could try madison-lite
<soulrider> but thats what? =/
<Adri2000> soulrider: when you said "its outdated", were you talking about packages.debian.org or filelight that was actually outdated in debian?
<soulrider> filelight
<soulrider> theres an old version of filelight
<Adri2000> ok, then you can ignore what I said
<soulrider> i compiled hte latest
<soulrider> and i want to submit it
<Adri2000> you can upload it to revu as said Riddell 
<soulrider> how do i do that? =/
<Adri2000> soulrider: you have an account on launchpad?
<soulrider> uhm
<soulrider> i think i do but i cant remember my pass, hold on
<soulrider> k, im logged in
<Adri2000> ok, you have to add your gpg key to your account
<soulrider> how do i do that ?
<Adri2000> first, do you have a gpg key? :)
<soulrider> err, dunno
<Adri2000> you need that to sign your packages
<soulrider> ok
<soulrider> how do i do that ?
<Adri2000> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/GnuPrivacyGuardHowto
<soulrider> thank you
<Adri2000> once you have your gpg key, add it on launchpad via https://launchpad.net/people/<your_nick>/+editpgpkeys, join the revu uploaders team via https://launchpad.net/people/ubuntu-universe-contributors/+join
<Adri2000> you can join #ubuntu-motu if you have questions, MOTU are people who maintain the universe and multiverse repositiories (filelight is in universe)
<Riddell> soulrider: if you know how to package, then package it and upload to revu
<Riddell> soulrider: if you want to learn how to package read the guide on help.ubuntu.com and update the package
<Riddell> soulrider: if you just want someone else to do it poke people (being KDE #kubuntu-devel probably the best place) to update it
<soulrider> yeah.. i think im gonna go bug someone
<mynameisdeleted> I have a dual 2.8GHZ 64-bit server with a gigabit internet connection........ could such a thing significantly speed up everyones apt-get runs?
<mynameisdeleted> how would I go about setting up such a mirror and making it publicly available?
<mynameisdeleted> I mean making it an official mirror that saves people download time
<mynameisdeleted> I'd prefer its for apt-getters only
<mynameisdeleted> and that people download iso's through torrent for which it can be a seed
<_ion> You probably should mail mirrors@ubuntu.com
<mynameisdeleted> emailed
<mynameisdeleted> I'm guessing ubuntu needs all the web bandwidth it can get for apt-get upgrades
<mynameisdeleted> how many users could be served do you think using 1gbps?
<mynameisdeleted> would there be a way to limmit bandwidth to lets say 300mbps average but burstable without slowing down users
<mynameisdeleted> just serving fewer of them?
<mynameisdeleted> like when it gets over that speed
<mynameisdeleted> some percent are redirected to another mirror?
<mynameisdeleted> so it won't mess up their apt-get 
<mynameisdeleted> but it won't bog down my gigabit ethernet either
<mynameisdeleted> so any applications I use for personal reasons on the server won't be slowed down
<mynameisdeleted> and the drive will be able to keep up with it as well
<wasabi__> Seveas: you messed with NX in the past? Wondering why it's not in the archives. =)
<desrt> wasabi; i hear you're staying in TX
<wasabi__> whered you hear that from?
<desrt> livejournal :)
<wasabi__> goddam
<wasabi__> girl needs to keep her mouth shut
<desrt> o.
<wasabi__> heh
<desrt> is it a semi-secret?
<wasabi__> depends who knows
<desrt> isi will make you happy.
<wasabi__> i assume she left contact numbers for all parties involved heh
<desrt> ya.  i called them up
<desrt> they think you're a swell guy
<desrt> oh.  they told me to wish you merry christmas
<wasabi__> they apparently dont pay well
<wasabi__> oh i see, snoopy bastard
<desrt> :)
<desrt> ya.  it really wasn't allison :)
<wasabi__> information leak cleaned!
<desrt> mind telling me what isi stands for? :)
<wasabi__> Seveas: n/m figured that one out. ;0
<Seveas> wasabi__, :)
#ubuntu-devel 2006-12-26
<alex-weej> http://alex-weej.blogspot.com/2006/03/human-user-group.html
<Hobbsee> alex-weej: look at the callender
<alex-weej> Hobbsee: ?
<alex-weej> yes i know i posted it in March, i still think it's a good idea! :P
<Hobbsee> alex-weej: it's the day after christmas day, or still christmas day - most people arent going to be looking @ irc
<alex-weej> oh right :P
<alex-weej> well... you saw it, right? :P
<Hobbsee> sure, but i dont deal in gnome
<mjg59> alex-weej: I'm not entirely convinced by the assertion. Real users go in the 1000+ range. System users shouldn't.
<mjg59> So why worry?
<alex-weej> well when i setup a package
<wasabi_> heh, did somebody just change back to spacial nautilus? :)
<wasabi_> my naut just switched back after an update
<alex-weej> and it creates a new user with uid=1004
<Lathiat> it shouldnt
<alex-weej> i don't want to see that jazz in my facebrowser!
<alex-weej> Lathiat: that's not the point
<mjg59> alex-weej: It shouldn't
<Hobbsee> fix the package so it shouldnt?
<mjg59> And that *is* the point
<alex-weej> i don't know whether you guys realise this
<alex-weej> but there are only 999 numbers less than 1000.
<wasabi_> Actually there are infinity, when you consider negative values.
<mjg59> And you're going to have over 999 system users on a single system?
<wasabi_> Just making sure you know. ;0
<alex-weej> mjg59: again, not the point
* Lathiat has never seen hsi system users coutn go above, ~120
<mjg59> alex-weej: ...
<alex-weej> ideally, we'd be using UUIDs anyway :/
<wasabi_> oh geeze
<Lathiat> is that a joke?
<alex-weej> it's a bit crack getting an ext3 file system off a mate's computer and seeing all the file permissions set to local users that makes no sense
<wasabi_> nautilus is closing widnows behind itself now too
<Lathiat> ahh
<alex-weej> Lathiat: absolutely not :o)
<Lathiat> so you mean, much longer UIDs
<mjg59> alex-weej: Any package that creates a system user in the 1000+ range is breaking Debian policy
<mjg59> So it's buggy
<mjg59> So you report it and we fix it
<mjg59> And that is *entirely* the point
<wasabi_> If you WANT to argue about having only 999 system users, then we can certainly do so.
<alex-weej> mjg59: but debian rules the world. you can't fix third party packages.
<wasabi_> =)
<alex-weej> wasabi_: i'd say a more useful argument is based on the case i suggested above
<mjg59> alex-weej: If .debs don't conform to Debian policy, they're broken
<wasabi_> You mean third party apps?
<mjg59> It's not our job to fix them
<wasabi_> If a third party app overwrites all of /usr, we're not going to fix it, either.
<Hobbsee> alex-weej: and they dont tend to make it in the archives, either
<alex-weej> when uid's no longer become simply sequential numbers, you CAN'T rely on it being somewhere above 1000.
<wasabi_> Sure you can.
<mjg59> alex-weej: When it's an issue, we'll deal with it
<alex-weej> it is an issue now. see my example!
<wasabi_> Wish teh third party software?
<alex-weej> with the file system
<wasabi_> Huh?
<mjg59> It's an issue because you've installed some piece of shit package produced by either an incompetent or someone ignorant of the fact that it's behaving like that
<alex-weej> uid 1003 on a foreign system does not correspond to uid 1003 on my system
<wasabi_> That would be correct.
<alex-weej> if they were both UUIDs, this would not be a problem
<wasabi_> ...
<alex-weej> as they would never match anyway
<wasabi_> You want to fix that, go whine someplace else.
<wasabi_> Specifically to the guys behind POSIX.
<mjg59> uids are 32-bit numbers.
<Lathiat> thats a much bigger issue
<mjg59> Ubuntu can't fix that.
<wasabi_> Yes, that issue is huge.
<Lathiat> also, UUIDs don't guarantee that'l *never* happen
<mjg59> A 32-bit number does not usefully identify every UNIX account on the planet
<Lathiat> it just increases the problem space ;)
<alex-weej> no, but they make the chances unreasonably slim
<alex-weej> pfft
<alex-weej> "Windows does it"
<wasabi_> alex-weej: Don't get ME wrong anyways, I am all for UUIDs.
<wasabi_> I have other issues which are impossible with 32 bit UIDs.
<wasabi_> Which I am keenly interested in solving. I just know it's not something a few guys in the ubuntu channel can tackle right now. ;0
<alex-weej> lol
<alex-weej> i wasn't implying that it was
<mjg59> It's not a problem that gets fixed by creating a human group
<alex-weej> true
<alex-weej> but the human group means that one less thing is relying on numerical sequentiality of uids
<mjg59> In Debian-based systems, real users have UIDs that are 1000 or above. Other users don't.
<wasabi_> Wait, what relies on numerical sequentialiy?
<mjg59> So, given that users are already clearly defined as human or not-human, there's no need for a human group
<wasabi_> ranges != sequentially. EVen Windows has "ranges"
<wasabi_> Special SID prefixes which correspond to system users, etc.
<wasabi_> There's nothing significantly different from <1000 and that.
<alex-weej> except there are probably more than 999 different system services that might require specific well-known UID available for windows :P
<mjg59> alex-weej: Oh, hey, if that's your concern, we only offer 100 specified UIDs
<wasabi_> alex-weej: Nope, not really.
<mjg59> Oh, wait
<wasabi_> alex-weej: There's like, 30.
<mjg59> Sorry, 4100
<mjg59> 5100
<alex-weej> ok
<alex-weej> i can live with debian's policy of humans having 1000 <= UID < whatever
<wasabi_> Anyways, there are other more worthy things to complain about.
<wasabi_> LIke that the face browser actually ENUMERATES using getpwent from 1000 to the end. ;)
<alex-weej> like Firefox?
* alex-weej coughs
<alex-weej> tbh fuck it all
<alex-weej> we should be logging people into ubuntu with OpenID!
<wasabi_> No way.
* alex-weej runs
<wasabi_> But it should be an option. :)
<alex-weej> wasabi_: that WAS a joke. :P
<alex-weej> yeah anyway going back to the whole UID jazz just for a second
<alex-weej> genuine question: what exactly makes stuff like sysvinit replaceable within the scope of ubuntu, but not stuff like that?
<mjg59> Changing uid to something other than a 32-bit value would break POSIX compliance
<mjg59> And hence NFS, NIS, LDAP, Hesiod and so on
<alex-weej> right
<alex-weej> that's less than good
* alex-weej ponders the notion of one ID per unix account in the world for just a second
<alex-weej> it does seem crack when you put it that way
<alex-weej> but still useful :F
<wasabi_> The problem is a real world one.
<wasabi_> Windows SIDs work, for distributed environments, you know.. Active Directory.
<wasabi_> And they're pretty much a requirement for that line of work, imo. So, we'll fix it eventually.
<wasabi_> Smart UID allocation or mapping policies aren't bad though.
<wasabi_> 32 bits really is enough for a single organization. Just not for every individual on the face of the planet.
<alex-weej> wasabi_: *nod*
<bluefoxicy> I'm being hit up for i686 again
<bluefoxicy> Someone wants my help swaying the devs to deprecate i586 and i486 support
<bluefoxicy> I told him to profile archlinux against archlinux i486 instead of against Ubuntu
<Hobbsee> why dont you do the benchmarks yourself, and then talk?
<bluefoxicy> Hobbsee:  I did some microbenchmarks with nbench a while back and got zip.
<bluefoxicy> I guess I could do some realistic benchmarks
<Hobbsee> that's the only way you'll get input on it
<bluefoxicy> maybe build libz + gzip and then compress tons of crap (random data?  The analysis that runs takes a long time to figure out it's not getting anywhere)
<bluefoxicy> but that still leaves actually justifying dropping i486/i586 support OR adding another arch repo; I'd need some pretty impressive bench mark numbers for that, and it's just not going to happen.
<bluefoxicy> doh.. now I'm curious as to the exact numbers I'll get :/
* bluefoxicy shakes fist at Hobbsee, starts compiling things.
<Hobbsee> haha
<bluefoxicy> speaking of making things faster, did anyone ever pin down the firefox issue
<bluefoxicy> it used to be that it would load in like 2 seconds (any other distro; official builds); unless you got it from Ubuntu, then it took 14-25 seconds to load
<wasabi_> Um. When making a new package upload, what's the proper way to signify that it should be placed in multiverse?
<wasabi_> It's been awhile.
<bluefoxicy> I believe that goes on the first line in the changelog entry
<wasabi_> distro should go there.
<bluefoxicy> yer right
<Hobbsee> wasabi_: i'm not sure.  same procedure as universe, i'd expect
<Hobbsee> one of the distro people would know
<wasabi_> Heh. Last time I did this there was no procedure other than asking somebody to NOT put it in universe.
<Hobbsee> ah
<Hobbsee> okay then
* Hobbsee doenst know
<neutrinomass> Comments on bug 77009 ? (or should I raise this on the mailing list? )
<Ubugtu> Malone bug 77009 in venkman "failed deps on iceweasel | iceape-browser | icedove" [Undecided,Unconfirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/77009
<Mithrandir> neutrinomass: looks like something which should be discussed on ubuntu-devel
<neutrinomass> Mithrandir: ok, I'll send a mail sometime today 
* Hobbsee hugs Mithrandir 
* Mithrandir hugs Hobbsee back
<Mithrandir> Hobbsee: how's your xmas been?
<Hobbsee> Mithrandir: good :)
<adam0509> Sorry, to distrurb, but do someone know about this package : xserver-xorg-input-joystick  ?
<Hobbsee> adam0509: probably not today, as it's still a public holiday in most countries.  and your question is very board
<Hobbsee> *broad
<adam0509> ok thx
<bddebian> Heya
<_ion> hi
<bddebian> Hello _ion
<Adri2000> cjwatson, Mithrandir, any archive admin: I have just seen that the binary package homebank-data is in main, while homebank is in universe. homebank-data should be in universe too. I don't know why homebank-data landed in main, but see yourself: http://archive.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/pool/main/h/homebank/ :p
<fdoving> Adri2000: confirmed. report a bug? 
<Adri2000> yeah, will do if no archive admin answers
<bhale> Adri2000: they are on holiday and unlikely to answer until after the new year..
<bhale> subscribe ubuntu-archive to your bug report
<Adri2000> done, bug 77179, fdoving: you can confirm it :)
<Ubugtu> Malone bug 77179 in homebank "homebank-data should be in universe, not in main" [Undecided,Unconfirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/77179
<fdoving> Adri, confirmed.
<Adri2000> thanks
<wasabi> Does anybody have a good overview of the plan regarding udev in the initramfs and mdadm/evms/lvm integration?
<wasabi> And it's current state.
<wasabi> Latest kernel is fun. Locks on boot at Checking aperture.
<Mithrandir> wasabi: "make udev call evms_activate/vgchange/raidstart when discovering block devices".
<wasabi> heh
<cjwatson> wasabi: multiverse> it's Section: multiverse/whatever in debian/control; but you *can* just let an archive admin override it
<cjwatson> wasabi: (you can also mark it non-free/blah or contrib/blah as appropriate per Debian policy, and we'll take that as a signal that it should go in multiverse)
<wasabi> Ahh. Makes sense. So, seeing as I already uploaded it, and it's in NEW, who do I contact to make sure it gets in the right place?
<wasabi> (i did not prefix section)
<Mithrandir> it'll be done by hand by whoever NEWs it.
<cjwatson> wasabi: no need
<cjwatson> er, as Mithrandir said
<cjwatson> wasabi: if it goes in the wrong place, you can always file a bug afterwards and subscribe ubuntu-archive to have it moved
<wasabi> k
<wasabi> thanks. =)
<alex-weej> is there some kind of online ubuntu hardware compatibility database?
<lotusleaf> alex-weej: well there's !hwdb
<alex-weej> lotusleaf: ta
<lotusleaf> alex-weej: and some tidbits on the wiki
<alex-weej> hmm
<alex-weej> dunno if hwdb is what i think it is
<alex-weej> have you ever seen Wine's AppDB?
<alex-weej> "Submissions Total: 441642 Today: 235416"
<alex-weej> wtf? half the hwdb submissions submitted today?
<Zober2> hi guys
<Zober2> raid array in dmraid is not recognized by gparted, is there something i need to do before gparted will see the raid array?
<_MMA_> I hope its just me but is there something in place that wont let me go to Feisty from Edgy?
<_MMA_> I tried to put in a Feisty daily and use update-manager to upgrade but it said: "Authentication the upgrade failed. There may be a problem with the network or the server.
<_MMA_> I was testing the -lowlatency kernels but messed up my partition and had to reinstall.
<Adri2000> !seen mvo
<Adri2000> thanks nickserv
#ubuntu-devel 2006-12-27
<holycow> hi guys
<holycow> there is someone in #ubuntu claiming ubuntu no longer freezes off of debian unstable
<holycow> is this true?
<Mithrandir> holycow: we merge Debian unstable before DebianImportFreeze.
<Mithrandir> so "no longer" can be interpreted as "the period when we merge all the stuff from Debian is over" which is true, but it's not permanently true.
<holycow> thats what i thought
<holycow> damned noobs
<holycow> thank you :)
<Mithrandir> no problem
<sjoerd> pitti: is the ubuntu avahi package in bzr on luanchpad somewhere ? :)
<Hobbsee> hey pitti!
<pitti> sjoerd: not the last time I checked
<pitti> hey Hobbsee!
* Hobbsee hugs pitti 
<sjoerd> pitti: k, thanks
* pitti grouphugs sjoerd and Hobbsee 
<Hobbsee> :)
* Hobbsee SQUISH!
<sjoerd> :)
* Fujitsu ruffles pitti  :P
<pitti> sjoerd: if you'd find it useful to have it in bzr, I can import it
<pitti> Fujitsu: *hug*
<sjoerd> pitti: that'd be nice
<Fujitsu> Hehe.
* Fujitsu now heads off to bed.
<sjoerd> it makes it a lot easier for me to check the changes then to download it of the mirror earch time :)
<Hobbsee> night Fujitsu 
<pitti> sjoerd: but I'd just import the latest version now, thus no history yet
<Fujitsu> Night Hobbsee, pitti, sjoerd, erc.
<Fujitsu> *et
<sjoerd> k
<Fujitsu> **etc
<sjoerd> lool uploaded an nss-mdns with the upstream recommended stuff, so now if i do the avahi magic to disable itself when an .local NS is around it'll actually help :)
* sjoerd hopes he can get this pushed for etch
* Lathiat needs to beat lennart with an IPv6 stick
<pitti> sjoerd: ah, cool
<pitti> sjoerd: oh, btw, I still have 0.6.15-1ubuntu2 to ubuntu5 around, so if you need those diffs, I could import them
<pitti> sjoerd: \o/ @ nss-mdns
<Lathiat> i'm just waiting for anand to kick back up
<Lathiat> it's kindof a shame i think its goign to create a bit of a rift but oh well, can't be helped :/
<sjoerd> pitti: just the lastest version is good enough
<pitti> sjoerd: btw, feel free to import/mirror the Debian versions on LP too for merging love
<sjoerd> pitti: if there is some way i can tell launchpad to import the svn repo ? 
<pitti> sjoerd: hm, for this you need to ping ddaa, I believe
<pitti> sjoerd: with cdbs I just import it manually, but for packages with many uploads this gets cumbersome
<sjoerd> right
<sjoerd> for me it's just extra work and i need to merge it back into svn manually anyway
<pitti> there we go: https://launchpad.net/products/avahi/+branches
<pitti> sjoerd: right, so either automatic mirroring or not at all
<Mithrandir> pitti: lp can't import svn branches, just trunk.
<sjoerd> Lathiat: if Anand kicks back up, i'll ensure that it goes directly to ctte/the release team... We should be able to stop someone damaging his package like this...
<Mithrandir> but you can always use bzr-svn
<sjoerd> Lathiat: but it's kinda OT here :)
* pitti added avahi to https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BzrMaintainedPackages, too
* Hobbsee hugs Mithrandir 
<pitti> sjoerd: so now you should be able to subscribe to that branch (never tried it, I assume it emails you on new commits or so)
* Mithrandir hugs Hobbsee back
<sjoerd> pitti: http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-core-dev/avahi/ubuntu gives a 404 :(
<pitti> sjoerd: argh, might need some time until it is scanned
<pitti> sjoerd: sftp:// works, so I think it's just a matter of time
* pitti -> off
<sjoerd> pitti: k, thanks! later :)
<bddebian> Heya
<_ion> Hi
<bddebian> Hello _ion
<Guardian> hello, is it the right place to ask for a tutorial on how to build a library with autotools ?
<Guardian> i'm hardly finding my way out googling :/
<Adri2000> Guardian: you want to package a library?
<Guardian> yep
<Adri2000> you can ask in #ubuntu-motu
<Guardian> i'm currently doing it using a classic makefile of mine
<Guardian> i'm building a static lib
<jhasse> Does anyone know why the font on the progress bar looks ugly since edgy?
<alex-weej> jhasse: i think so
<alex-weej> jhasse: does it look kinda grey outlined?
<jhasse> alex-weej: yes
<_ion> Subpixel antialiasing perhaps?
<alex-weej> jhasse: one second
<alex-weej> _ion: no
<_ion> Blue pixels against a yellow-ish background
<alex-weej> http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=352435
<Ubugtu> Gnome bug 352435 in gtk "GtkProgressBar text rendering errors" [Normal,Resolved: fixed]  
<jhasse> alex-weej: thx, i searched for this bug in launchpad but couldn't find it
<alex-weej> jhasse: that'll be because it isn't in launchpad :o)
<alex-weej> jhasse: i'm yet to see the fix in any release yet though
<alex-weej> jhasse: you running Edgy like me?
<jhasse> alex-weej: feisty
<alex-weej> jhasse: ah, still not there yet then
<jhasse> alex-weej: Gnome target:  	Unspecified   	<- maybe 2.18
<alex-weej> jhasse: it's been committed to head, i'd guess simply the next gtk release
<leonel> sorry but i'd like to know if there's be an firefox2 update for  edgy 
<ulaas> mount problems for ntfs drives. known issue for feisty...?
<fulldisclosure> Hi.
<fulldisclosure> Hi, I have an error compiling gnome-bluetooth for debian.
<fulldisclosure> <fulldisclosure> Hello?
<fulldisclosure> maybe someone here can help me, because I dont have that package i debian.
<bhale> hi, this is not a supprot channel for Ubuntu, and especially not for Debian, sorry.
<fulldisclosure> ummm
<Seveas> fulldisclosure, #debian is the place you are looking for
<fulldisclosure> Seveas, not sure.. but thanks anyway
<bddebian> heh
<cge> Would I be justified in telling the people arguing about ESR's new paper on devel-discuss to move the discussion to sounder?
<bddebian> Or even #who-cares? :-)
<Treenaks> bddebian: #esr-fanboys?
<Seveas> cge, very much - it has little to do with ubuntu, development of sanity for that mattr
<Seveas> Treenaks, !
<Treenaks> Seveas: !
<Seveas> Treenaks, your blog breaks planet 
<bddebian> Heh, heya Treenaks
<Treenaks> Seveas: it does?
<Treenaks> Seveas: cool!
<Seveas> planet takes 99% cpu for infinity when parsing your feed
<Treenaks> Seveas: --> pm
<leonel> sorry but  if there will  be an firefox2 update for  edgy 
<cge> leonel: You would receive a better response by asking in #ubuntu.
<leonel> cge: I got a better here with your answer 
<leonel> i'll ask again in #ubuntu
<leonel> thanks
<Treenaks> leonel: constantly asking the same question isn't going to help. There likely won't be an official update, as people are too busy with the new development version.
<Treenaks> leonel: uhr wait
<Treenaks> leonel: edgy already HAS 2.0
<zarathustra> compa leonel 
<zarathustra> ya llegue
<cge> Treenaks: He's asking about 2.0.0.1
<cge> Treenaks: Which is a security update.
<Treenaks> cge: then it's probably being looked at
<cge> leonel: as Treenaks just said, it's probably being looked at
<leonel> cge:  thanks
#ubuntu-devel 2006-12-28
<blanky> hey guys
<TraceGreen> Why ubuntu new livecd can mount harddisk image through loop device?
<conn> hi, I'm trying to compile gtk+2 (Ubuntu Edgy). I have all the build dependencies satisfied, but it's not adding freetype2 to the include list, so it won't compile, can someone help?
<_ion> 0) please read the topic, 1) use the binary package from apt.
<conn> ok, sorry.. I figured it'd be better to ask here, as the user channel's occupants have little knowledge of building source packages... I wanted to build from source to test some performance patches from gnome's performance-list
<blocke> Before I submit a bug to launchpad and potentially generate useless noise, does anyone know where the firefox update for the 2.0.0.1 security issues is for edgy?  It seems all other ubuntu releases except for edgy were patched days ago.
<keescook> blocke: only feisty has been published.
<keescook> the others are being tested still, should be available monday
<blocke> keescook: Ah ok, I had assumed based on date that the fixes had been backported to dapper, guess it was just a coincidence then, thanks :)
<crimsun> (and as he uploaded them, I'd take his word for it.)
<keescook> blocke: yeah, mozilla (without warning, unfortunately) released the firefox updates on the 19th, right before all the holidays.  :P
<blocke> Hahaha, ok, Thanks.  :)
* rideout is back.
<pitti> Mithrandir: any chance to bribe you to re-try postgresql-8.2 sync again?
<cbx33> ping anyone....
<PuMpErNiCkLe> EOF
<pitti> cbx33: ?
<cbx33> pitti can I pm you abotu a security issue?
<pitti> sure
<bddebian> Heya
<sivang> bddebian: hey there
<sivang> bddebian: are everybody on a christmas vacation ?
<bddebian> Not me, I'm at work :-)
<bddebian> Hi sivang
<sivang> bddebian: what's up? what are you breaking today? :p
<bddebian> Dunno, just got in.. :-)
<sivang> bddebian: hehe, okay, have a nice stay then
<bddebian> :-)
<hyperactivecrond> *not a support question* but when dist-upgrading from edgy to feisty, openoffice raises conflict issues as follows: http://pastebin.com/846503 
<_ion> Some packages are updated to 2.1 and some aren't yet.
<ryanakca> probably the wrong place to ask this, but who would I contact for doc-linux-html? (I'm going to fix bugs 76312, 76313, 76315, 76320)... #ubuntu-doc says that they aren't in charge of / responsible for it...
<Ubugtu> Malone bug 76312 in doc-linux "doc-linux-html includes files that automatically open pages online" [Undecided,Confirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/76312
<Ubugtu> Malone bug 76313 in doc-linux "Distributions-HOWTO is generally broken" [Undecided,Confirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/76313
<Ubugtu> Malone bug 76315 in doc-linux "Some -HOWTOs have been removed" [Undecided,Confirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/76315
<Ubugtu> Malone bug 76320 in doc-linux "doc-linux-html is messy and inconsistent" [Undecided,Confirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/76320
<dous> ryanakca: on debian, colin watson is one of those who are responsible for the package as stated in http://packages.debian.org/unstable/doc/doc-linux-html
<ryanakca> dous: kk, ty
<mdke> ryanakca: just add your patch to the bug report, then a developer can review/apply it
<ryanakca> mdke: it'll be a huge patch... and I'm not sure about some things
<mdke> ryanakca: you can tar it up :) As for not being sure, asking is the way forward
<ryanakca> lol, I found their mailing list :D
<ryanakca> hmm... should I create an ubuntu headered index page?
<ryanakca> kindof like the documentation ones?
<ryanakca> like on http://doc.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/about-ubuntu/C/index.html
<FreeedoN> Hello
<FreeedoN> Is Mark Shuttleworth still involved in "ubuntu" ?
<wasabi> that's a silly question isn't it
<mdke> FreeedoN: erm, he is the most important person in Ubuntu
<FreeedoN> true
<FreeedoN> I went to uni with him.
<wasabi> true?
<FreeedoN> wanted to catch up
<wasabi> i'd imagine email would be a good avenue.
<FreeedoN> sweet
<FreeedoN> sorry to bother you guys. I read a website that said he maybe in here....i'll find his email.
<wasabi> s'ok
<geser> FreeedoN: if it wasn't holiday time now, you might have meet him here
<ryanakca> mdke: I'll take that as a yes? or a no?
<mdke> ryanakca: take what?
<ryanakca> mdke: my question 10-12 minutes ago... about the headered index page...
<ryanakca> D-lined?
<mdke> ryanakca: I didn't answer it...
<ryanakca> Nevermind :D
<mdke> I don't know the answer. My instinct would be not, in order to attempt to stay as close to Debian as possible.
<ryanakca> kk
#ubuntu-devel 2006-12-29
<alex-weej> https://bugs.launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+source/xserver-xorg-video-ati/+bug/77381
<Ubugtu> Malone bug 77381 in xserver-xorg-video-ati "DRI for RV250 (ATI Radeon 9000 Pro) broken by default" [Undecided,Unconfirmed]  
<alex-weej> i wanted to mark that bug as occurring in libgl1-mesa-dri
<alex-weej> but it wont let me mark it in two Ubuntu packages
<alex-weej> which is the correct place for it?
<crimsun> definitely not a mesa issue.
<alex-weej> https://bugs.launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+source/xserver-xorg-video-ati/+bug/77381/+index#
<Ubugtu> Malone bug 77381 in xserver-xorg-video-ati "DRI for RV250 (ATI Radeon 9000 Pro) broken by default" [Undecided,Unconfirmed]  
<alex-weej> fucking hell
<alex-weej> i just realised it's because fglrx's libGL.so.1.2 conflicts with libgl1-mesa-glx's
<alex-weej> that's a bug.
<Sebastian> Hi! I am running Feisty on my notebook and the Update Manager just uninstalled the Gaim and ubuntu-desktop packages. Is that intentional or a bug?
<Fujitsu> Sebastian, please see /topic. Use #ubuntu+1 for support with Feisty.
<Sebastian> Okay, thanks.
<giskard> morning
<hunger> Any idea when ooo will be upgradeable again? Currently it seems to be blocked by the langpacks.
<tsmithe> yeah...
<tsmithe> i just went ahead with it ;)
<Ingar> h.
<bddebian> Heya
<zyga> hello
<highvoltage> !seen dholbach
<thom> he's in austria isn't he?
<bhale> hi thom 
<thom> hey dude. good xmas?
<bhale> good, you?
<thom> yeah. familied to death, but y'know :-)
<bhale> im with you
<bhale> (im still here suffering)
<bhale> i thought it would be a good idea to stay through new years instead of another 4 hours in the car
<bhale> I was wrong
<thom> ahr
<thom> i can understand not doing 4 hours in the car. but yeah, there comes a point when it's good to get back to your own plae fer sure
<bddebian> bhale: heh
<philip> so I hear tkamppeter made Brother laser printers work out of the box now. Can anyone confirm?
<alex-weej> https://bugs.launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+source/gtk+2.0/+bug/77443
<Ubugtu> Malone bug 77443 in gtk+2.0 "Re-using rasterisations of unhinted glyphs is unsafe" [Undecided,Unconfirmed]  
<alex-weej> is that in the right package?
<alex-weej> i'd like to know so i can forward it upstream if necessary
<ernstp> anyone good at dealing with HAL?
<mdke> pitti is good, I think
<ernstp> I'm trying to get hal to list my soundcard for jokosher, but I'm not really sure where to start
<ernstp> it lists some soundblaster cards so that should be a good start...
<ernstp> he's not in this channel by that name...
<mdke> correct
<mdke> a bug report would probably be the best start
<ernstp> I filed one, I'm just eager to fix it :-)
<mdke> did you get any feedback about how to fix it?
<ernstp> no, I filed it 5 minutes ago :-)
<mdke> oh right
<mdke> hopefully someone will
<ernstp> could it be something missing from /usr/share/misc/pci.ids perhaps?!
* tsmithe is away: sleep
<ernstp> can I subscribe a team to a bug in launchpad some way?
<mdke> sure
<mdke> ernstp: ^
<ernstp> mdke: how?
<mdke> ernstp: you click on "Subscribe Someone Else"
<somerville32> ernstp: Same way you'd subscribe another person.
<somerville32> :)
<ernstp> ah, it said Person so clearly I thought I couldn't subscribe a team there
<mdke> Teams are people too
<somerville32> \o/
#ubuntu-devel 2006-12-30
<ernstp> employed ubuntu people working all christmas? :-)
<crimsun> if so, it's a rarity
<herz1> how do I automatically load a module when a device gets plugged in?
<herz1> (read: it's not loaded automatically right now and I'd like to report a bug with enough information to get this fix right into ubuntu without any further work on it)
<ernstp> herz1: you should file a bug on udev then I think...
<herz1> I observed that fact that several bugs take ages if there's some work required by the maintainers, so I'd like to get this solved and just attach a patch to such a bug
<lifeless> herz1: the kernel tells udev what devices are there
<lifeless> herz1: udev inserts the module
<lifeless> herz1: and the module may then look for firmware
<lifeless> herz1: failure modes: hardware is not detected -> kernel. hardware is reported wrongly -> kernel. hardware is reported correctly, udev doesn't know which driver -> kernel or udev. firmware is missing -> may be a licence issue, or may be a bug
<lifeless> missing firmware is probably a kernel issue again
<herz1> lifeless: any idea on how to find out which of these issues the cause is?
<lifeless> yes. research :)
<herz1> of course :-)
<lifeless> do I have a canned answer - no, sorry.
<herz1> the point is: the device works (after a manual modprobe)
<herz1> i just want to get rid of that modprobe
<alex-weej> can anyone tell me what our initrd actually does?
<mjg59> Starts usplash, loads drivers, mounts root, starts init
<Robot101> mounts root using early udev
<alex-weej> can anybody tell me what *should* be in my /etc/fstab?
<alex-weej> i only have /proc, / and swap right now
<alex-weej> i thought i needed one for /dev/shm
<alex-weej> it seems it's automatically done that
<cypherbios> alex-weej: it's seems that it is not needed
<alex-weej> and sysfs :E
<cypherbios> alex-weej: just /proc, / and swap is sufficient 
<alex-weej> ok yeah that seems fine
<alex-weej> thanks
<Robot101> tbh proc will probably be done automatically for you too, but by convention/hysterical raisins it's still there
<alex-weej> i actually removed my optical drives a while ago
<alex-weej> from my fstab
<alex-weej> is there any disadvantage to this?
<Robot101> no
<Robot101> (this seems unrelated to ubuntu development)
<alex-weej> yeah my bad
<alex-weej> not like anyone else was talking though :P
<alex-weej> however, on the issue of ubuntu development, are there any plans to turn on automatic session saving in feisty?
<alex-weej> it's one of the stock features of GNOME i'm always surprised to find still disabled every time i do a new install
<twb> Mithrandir: ping
<MagicFab> hi, I was wondering about the status of Ubuntu on HPPA ? I see http://ubuntu-hppa.pateam.org/ hasn't been updated in a while
<Hobbsee> MagicFab: i doubt canonical owns that address, so cant update it.
<Hobbsee> http://ports.ubuntu.com/ may be a help
<MagicFab> Well, it's not officially supported from what I've read
<Hobbsee> or whatever the index page is
<Hobbsee> that's correct, iirc
<MagicFab> this seems like a nice summary of ports: https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-announce/2005-October/000040.html
<StevenK> If I recall correctly, hppa wasn't bootstraped for Edgy.
<Mithrandir> twb: hiya
<twb> Mithrandir: any idea when the next casper version will be released?
<Mithrandir> twb: not this year. :-P
<twb> :-(
<Mithrandir> twb: how about next week?
<twb> Wait, it's december or something
<Mithrandir> yeah, it's next year in two days.
<twb> Mithrandir: I merged the debian stuff into my branch, but I don't know what the procedure is for then getting that code into feisty's main repo.
<Mithrandir> prodding me until I merge it.
<Mithrandir> :-)
<twb> k
<Mithrandir> sorry I've been unresponsive, but I've been vacationing
<twb> No worries.
<twb> It works right now; it's just that once it goes into the feisty mirrors I can remove some hocus code from my build scripts and just use pinning.
<Mithrandir> yeah, and you have some shiny stuff want to grab as well
<twb> Oh?
<Mithrandir> the nfsroot stuff, for instance.
<twb> Right
<twb> It's really Debian Live's shiny stuff, not mine.
<bddebian> Heya
<szachista> hi there
<szachista> who is responsible for the look&feel of official ubuntu site?
<Mithrandir> szachista: newz2000, but he, like most of the rest of the people involved are on vacation now
<mdke> szachista: bugs here: https://launchpad.net/products/ubuntu-website/+bugs
<szachista> ohh... what a pty ;(
<szachista> i just would like too now if there is any project that aims to fully internatiolize that webpage
<szachista> and if i could help with it
<mdke> our local teams maintain their own localised websites
<szachista> mdke: that sucks, just look at debian.org
<szachista> why ubuntu can't have the same?
<mdke> I think it works well, myself
<szachista> but are there any plans to make in multi-linual?
<szachista> it*
<szachista> lingual*
<mdke> that way localised forums and documentation are in the same place as the localised website
<szachista> sorry for my english ;(
<mdke> e.g. http://ubuntu.pl/
<szachista> mdke: but it's not official website i think
<szachista> mdke: i was told somebody not connected with cannonical has to pay for the servers
<mdke> it's the official polish website
<szachista> mds: but why there are google adds one forum.ubuntu.pl?
<mdke> Canonical provides hosting if required
<szachista> mdke: hmm... administrator of polish ubuntu forum said they have to pay for everyting, and cannonical just links to them from ubuntu.com
<mdke> that's their choice
<mdke> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LoCoHosting
<szachista> mdke: so if they would asked, cannonical would offer them free hosting?
<szachista> would ask*
<mdke> yes
<szachista> hmm... that strange :/
<szachista> ok, thanks for information
<szachista> i'll try to conntact local community :)
<kent> szachista: having the national Ubuntu community driven by them selves and for them selves is better. Some costs (server space etc) is paid for by canonical, and the rest is done by the community. its more cost-effective as fare as I know, and most likely more effective way of getting work done.
<mdke> kent, szachista: we do need to improve the visibility of the local sites from the main English site though
<mdke> any ideas very welcome on the bug tracker
<kent> mdke: the same mechanism www.debian.org  uses to get the right translation could be used to have a link on the frontpage to the right LoCo, perhaps?  (bugtracker is a nick for some one here who automaticly get things done, right?  ;) )
<mdke> kent: I think it would be quite complicated to use content negotiation to change links. But maybe it's possible.
#ubuntu-devel 2006-12-31
<TheMuso> c
<_ion> c++
<bddebian> VB
* bddebian hides
* Ng hands bddebian the mouth washing kit ;)
<bddebian> heh
<_ion> I've actually written a Visual Basic program in my life: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8670463511478827246
<_ion> The blood doesn't wash away. :-(
<jdub> does the new initramfs-tools fix 2.6.20 booting?
<Stonekeeper> Hi. I have an idea for supporting non-supported drivers in Ubuntu. Is this the place for the suggestion?
<Fujitsu> Stonekeeper, probably not on New Year's Day (or close to).
<kent> Stonekeeper: i think the correct way is to enter a bugreport/featuere-request on launchpad.
<Treenaks> kent: or even a spec
<Stonekeeper> ok thanks. Do you mind if i run the idea past you for some ideas/feedback?
<tsmithe> i don't
<Stonekeeper> ok, my idea is pretty simple. The problem is hunting around for drivers on non-supported h/w. This is akin to hunting around for software on windows. Apt does a great job of fixing this. So I had the idea of having a central DB that OS driver maintainers could register with. Desktop users have a simple front-end that scans the DB for a driver and does a download/untar/configure;make;make install. It would be totally unsuported and community driven. I
<Stonekeeper> perhaps it's unworkable - i don't know.
<Stonekeeper> anyway, I'll leave you with that little thought. Happy new year to you all :)
<Chipzz> I am not a developer, but I can see a whole lot of things wrong with this
<Chipzz> heh
<Chipzz> great :P
<rob> I remember seeing a project that was attempting something pretty similar to that actually
<rob> minus the installation bit
<Chipzz> I think one of the biggest problems would be even though it would be unsupported, people would still demand support for kernels with additional modules compiled this way
<Chipzz> or even be able to easily identify such modifications
<tsmithe> yes
<Chipzz> cfr the big easyubuntu/automatix/etc debacle
<tsmithe> urgh
<rob> yeah, the project I'm thinking of was more a general information application that you could use to scan your hardware and provide information on drives and things which it then kept in a central database which others could then query via the application on their computer
<neuralis> rob: a h/w database web app is one of the feisty specs, iirc
<rob> nice, but is the "app" website based or a traditional on each pc based?
<neuralis> rob: "web app"
<rob> like, ajax?
<neuralis> no. last i heard at uds-mtv, the discussion was about a prettified, html-based, database-driven interface to the existing hwdb submissions.
<Anarchy> aight I tried in main channel but wtf is with a patch like this http://rafb.net/p/NoWt3d86.nln.html why not put out something more unified so other distros can use the same patch
<zorglu_> hehe anarchy was the old nick of alan cox
<zorglu_> i had to check :)
<Anarchy> well nvm I have what I need already 
<Solarion> ello
<Solarion> anyone seen http://www.theinquirer.net/default.aspx?article=36635
<Solarion> "So, unable to transfer the install easily, unable to legally use a different CD of Windows with my legally purchased key, and unable to install the drivers with the one I had, I was left with only one option. The machine was put in place Saturday running Ubuntu."
<Solarion> happy new year!
<alecjw> hi. i have a feature request, which i don't want to file a specification or whatever on yet, i want to see what people think first.
<alecjw> is this the right place?
<alecjw> or should that go in #ubuntu+1
<Toadstool> depending on the amount of work (ie. if it involves modifying several packages or just one), I'd say either a wishlist bug or a spec and before submitting it you can send a mail to ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com
<alecjw> Toadstool: ok then. it's a suggestion for the ubuntu-desktop metapackage. i think i'll email the list. do i need to sign up or anything or do i just send the mail?
<Toadstool> alecjw: you can send an email and explicitly ask for being CC'ed but I'd advise to subscribe
<alecjw> Toadstool: how do i subscribe then?
<alecjw> just send a blank email to the list?
<Toadstool> http://lists.ubuntu.com/
<Toadstool> nope
<alecjw> thanks
<wasabi_> This may seem radical, but why doesn't apache use shared-mime-info?
<_ion> That would be nice.
#ubuntu-devel 2007-12-24
<fabio_> Merry crhismas to all developers
<fabio_> :)
<fabio_> its good to know one men can change the world
<fabio_> i dont know why my virtualbox not detect my dvd rom
<Hobbsee> fabio_: did you tell it to, in the configs?
<fabio_> Hobbsee: yes in the options?
<Hobbsee> yeah.  odd
<fabio_> Hod	
<fabio_> But I already tried
<fabio_> and not happen natheng
<fabio_> have other way to change the directory dvd?
<fabio_> my current is media/cdrom0
<Hobbsee> no idea, but that sounds like a good quesiton to ask #ubuntu
<fabio_> Nobody answers -.-
<fabio_> 	
<fabio_> I am already tired of looking
<Hobbsee> fabio_: well, it's christmas eve, and the europeans and US don't wake up for a few hours....
<fabio_> Christmas? Lool is annoying
<fabio_> Taste more than watching television drink some beers and go to the cinema
<fabio_> This is what is life
<fabio_> hehehe
<fabio_> But I think that there is a channel for the virtualbox
<Hobbsee> #vbox or something
<fabio_> I live in portugal is an cold
<fabio_> brrrrrrr
<fabio_> any ones plays hattrick?
<fabio_> heheh
<fabio_> i want to know one more thing
<fabio_> What is that the open keys pgp
<Hobbsee> !gpg | fabio_
<ubotu> fabio_: gpg is the GNU Privacy Guard.  See https://help.ubuntu.com/community/GnuPrivacyGuardHowto and class #8 on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ClassroomTranscripts
<fabio_> i have an pgp key
 * Hobbsee notes that this *really* isnt' a support channel
<fabio_> https://launchpad.net/~fabiomiguel3
<Riddell> StevenK: why is fftw3 suddenly in universe?
 * Riddell puts it back into main
<StevenK> Riddell: Errr. It shouldn't be
<StevenK> ?
<Riddell> spooky
<StevenK> fftw3 source or binary in universe?
<Riddell> StevenK: both
<StevenK> Weird.
<Riddell> broke my daily CDs
<StevenK> I just uploaded a bunch of rebuilds, nothing more.
<warp10> Hi all
<\sh> also to you all...happy holidays, Joyeux NoÃ«l, Merry Christmas, Happy Hannukah or whatever you celebrate these days :) Have a peaceful time :)
 * Hobbsee waves
<sladen> Hobbsee: it's probably Christmas in Australia already.
<sladen> Hobbsee: have fun!
<Hobbsee> sladen: indeed!
 * Hobbsee is munching on dinner
* sladen changed the topic of #ubuntu-devel to: Archive: OPEN | Hardy Alpha 2 released | Development of Ubuntu (not support, even with hardy; not application development on Ubuntu) | #ubuntu for support and general discussion for dapper/edgy/feisty/gutsy | #ubuntu-motu for getting involved in development | http://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopment | See #ubuntu-bugs for http://wiki.ubuntu.com/HelpingWithBugs" | HELP TESTING: https://iso.qa.stgraber.org
<sivaji>  knetwork manager is not working, my syslog file is here http://pastebin.com/f707fdd1 please  help me
<persia> sivaji: Firstly, this isn't a support channel, you can request support in #ubuntu or #ubuntu-xx where xx is your country code.  Secondly, that's likely a bug, and you probably want to search the bug database, as IRC is a poor place to submit bugs.  Thirdly, it's a holiday week for most developers, so you are even more unlikely to get help here.  Fourthly, good luck with your bug: it looks very annoying.
<Chipzz> persia: happy holidays :)
<persia> Chipzz: Joyeux NoÃ«l
<BlackDiamonds> What is the link for Alpha2 ?
<Kmos> BlackDiamonds: http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/releases/8.04/alpha-2/
<fabio_> developers portugueses where is the channel??
<nixternal> if an archive admin reads this any time soon, can you please give me a "give back" on kde4libs 3.97.0-3ubuntu3 please...chroot probs didn't allow ppc and i386 builds..thanks
<Kmos> http://launchpadlibrarian.net/11056205/buildlog_ubuntu-hardy-sparc.cvxopt_0.9.1-4_CHROOTWAIT.txt.gz
<jpatrick> Kmos: yep, it's christmas and the build daemons have builtin AI
<Kmos> jpatrick: hehe, it's in case some buildd admin see it :) merry xmas
<jpatrick> Kmos: merry xmas! (build admins are out)
<Kmos> yeah =)
<persia> jpatrick: NMU versions are ugly for ubuntu-only packages :)
<jpatrick> persia: I was just following what the older packages had :o)
<persia> jpatrick: For ubuntu-restricted-extras?
<jpatrick> yeah
 * persia sees 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 11.1
<jpatrick> ah, sorry, I saw 2.1...3 in the changelog
<persia> jpatrick: Ah.  Yes.  2.1 was there.  My mistake (and someone else's in feisty).  Anyway, if it's a holiday for you, enjoy :)
<jpatrick> persia: happy holiday to you too, and I'll note for next time
<RzR> hi
<Fujitsu> Hi RzR.
<RzR> any ubuntu mobile guys arround ?
<RzR> I plan to package a jabber client
#ubuntu-devel 2007-12-25
<jed> hi... im running gutsy right now, is there a way that i can update my just xorg to hardy alpha2?
<pwnguin> not easily
<pwnguin> bah
<ramvi> You know when you go to Sound and choose what channels you want to change the volume of with your hotkeys? How can I set that option with a command?
<ramvi> oh, not application development. sorry
 * GoldenPony notes that she nuked u-r-e's old structure, and took it over, persia 
<GoldenPony> then again, i thought you fixed that ages ago!
<GoldenPony> er, jpatrick did
 * GoldenPony hopes jpatrick committed to bzr, though
 * persia gives GoldenPony an apple
 * GoldenPony munches happily
<superm1> hm so did the buildd's decide to stop working on xmas?  it appears i have both ppa's and regular builds failing as they try to jump into the chroot
<superm1> http://launchpadlibrarian.net/11056442/buildlog_ubuntu-hardy-sparc.vlc_0.8.6.release.d-0ubuntu3_CHROOTWAIT.txt.gz
<superm1> http://launchpadlibrarian.net/11060246/buildlog_ubuntu-hardy-i386.ubiquity_1.7.2%2Bmythbuntu2_CHROOTWAIT.txt.gz
<persia> I've a few of those too, but don't expect anyone to be around to fix them :)
<StevenK> It looks like libstdc++6 or apt is busted
 * persia suspects libstdc++6, which had a very recent update
 * minghua sighs.
<minghua> When you have thousands of choices for your test case, and you chose one that gives the same answer for both correct and wrong code, what is it trying to tell you?
<persia> minghua: The sound of one hand clapping.
<minghua> persia: Hmm.  Does that mean "it is not trying to tell me anything"?
 * minghua is just being a bit superstitious.
<persia> minghua: Rather that if you write test code that succeeds for both good and bad code, you've asked the wrong question.  At this point, all answers are correct.
<minghua> persia: Of course.  But the question was randomly chosen, it was just any date in a twenty-year span, after all.
<persia> minghua: You're still thinking narrow.  If a test succeeds for both correct and incorrect code, it is the wrong test.  I suspect the problem is not with the date that was chosen.
<minghua> There are probably much more than one date that is a wrong test case, but still.
<minghua> persia: It is.  The code is fixed now.  (The test case is left alone, more other test cases are added.)
<minghua> persia: I was just ranting, and thanks for listening. :-)
 * persia goes back to other things, believing that the addition of more test cases changes the nature of the test, and that the original question was still not the correct question if the answer could be valid for incorrect code.
<superm1> Hobbsee, with your archive adminy privs, could you fix hardy on the buildd's, or will we need to wait for a release manager for that?
<Hobbsee> superm1: you'll need someone with root on the buildds for that, which isn't me.
<Hobbsee> probably infinity or elmo or someone
<superm1> okay so after the holidays then :)
 * Hobbsee doesn't even have access into the data centre, let alone root on the buildds
 * Nafallo had permanent access to that datacenter a while ago :-)
<Hobbsee> Nafallo: you suck.  i'm envious.
<Hobbsee> Nafallo: how'd you manage that?
<Nafallo> Hobbsee: worked for their ISP
<Nafallo> #
<Hobbsee> ahhh
<StevenK> Nafallo: Not any more?
<Nafallo> StevenK: nope
<Nafallo> working in shared hosting now
<x-ip> hi, i ask for help to make a package from this proyect http://wiki.aonx.com.ar
<x-ip> its a gpl proyect, its in spanish and i can help to translate what is needed
<x-ip> some volunteer ?
<blerk> where can i ask a hardy related question?
<sparr> are package pinning questions on topic?
<crimsun> generally, no.
<sparr> ok
<wasabi> Hey, how does one enable apport on a relase?
<wasabi> It' confusing me. The crash procfs stuff is set right...  not sure what part of the stack is supposed to make dialogs pop up on my session
* Kmos changed the topic of #ubuntu-devel to: Archive: OPEN | Hardy Alpha 2 released | Development of Ubuntu (not support, even with hardy; not application development on Ubuntu) | #ubuntu for support and general discussion for dapper/edgy/feisty/gutsy | #ubuntu-motu for getting involved in development | http://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopment | See #ubuntu-bugs for http://wiki.ubuntu.com/HelpingWithBugs
<bardyr> i dont know if this is the right channel but its my best bet :), i want to make a external USB harddrive to a portable ubuntu with vmware server that i can plug in different machines and run my VM's and do some network testing, etc. i was thinking of putting the ubuntu desktop live cd on it and then update it and install all restricted drivers so it will work on most PC's, but whats the best way to do it?
<bardyr> is it just extracting the live cd and update/install the things i need?
<pygi> bardyr, hello
<pygi> a) It's not that easy, but you can use Reconstructor to modify livecd environment
<pygi> b) this is not the right channel
<bardyr> pygi okay thanks, i'll shot up now :)
<pygi> bardyr, just ask if you have questions, it's quiet anyway
#ubuntu-devel 2007-12-26
<infbliss> if there are any developers here, please take note that the
<infbliss> 	   Hibernate/Suspend feature of Ubuntu does not work with Dell Vostro
<infbliss> 	   line of laptops
<ion_> You should file a bug report.
<infbliss> ion_: in launchpad??
<ion_> Yes
<infbliss> ion_:ok i will
<ion_> (Check for an already existing report first, though.)
<wasabi> There any good planned way to make sure proper -dbg packages are installed before filing a bug with apport?
<Fujitsu> wasabi: That's not necessary.
<wasabi> Oh, not anymore?
<Fujitsu> The retracers install the ddebs, and retrace the report.
<wasabi> Oh that's nifty.
<Fujitsu> (they look for a specific tag on LP that apport adds)
 * Hobbsee waves
<Fujitsu> Hey Hobbsee,
<Hobbsee> Fujitsu: how's it going?  buildds sorted out yet?
<Fujitsu> Not sure.
 * Fujitsu updates the FTBFS page.
<Hobbsee> we have a page for that?
<Fujitsu> http://qa.ubuntuwire.com/ftbfs
<Hobbsee> ahh
<Fujitsu> Do we know what's wrong with libstdc++6 yet?
<Hobbsee> no. WFM
<Hobbsee> needs someone with access to debug it further
<infbliss> Hibernate feature does not seem to work on Dell Vostro 1000. I have reported this in Launchpad
<infbliss> is there a
<infbliss> temporary workaround for this??
<persia> infbliss: For workarounds, you'll have better luck in #ubuntu or #ubuntu-xx.
<persia> (where xx is your country code)
* Hobbsee changed the topic of #ubuntu-devel to: Archive: OPEN | Hardy Alpha 2 released | Development of Ubuntu (not support, not application development on Ubuntu) | #ubuntu for support and general discussion for dapper/edgy/feisty/gutsy, #ubuntu+1 for hardy | #ubuntu-motu for getting involved in development | http://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopment | See #ubuntu-bugs for http://wiki.ubuntu.com/HelpingWithBugs
<infbliss> persia:thanks
<RenatoSilva> Hi people, I'm building my 1st .DEB package, but I only know how to copy files to the system (lot of simplistic tutorials). To start, I want to know just how to put an icon of my application on the systenm menu. How???? Is this the wrong channel? Please let me know.
<CheGuevara> RenatoSilva: #ubuntu-motu
<RenatoSilva> CheGuevara: I thought motu was a kind of devel++ so that if this is wrong then motu is wrong++ don't?
<emgent> heya ernesto!
<CheGuevara> RenatoSilva: its just .deb packageing questions are generally better asked there
<CheGuevara> hey emgent :P
<RenatoSilva> CheGuevara: ok, but these channels are about developing Ubuntu ITSELF (my thought) or either developing things ON IT (general dev questions)?
<CheGuevara> this channel is about developing ubuntu itself
<RenatoSilva> CheGuevara: so my question is not suitable...sorry
<CheGuevara> no need to appologise :P
<RenatoSilva> CheGuevara: I was worried about understanding the purpose wrongly and come here again and again with non-desirable questions
<CheGuevara> as a general rule try #ubuntu first :P
<Hobbsee> ebug-http should be ripped out of the archive.
<Hobbsee> it won't build on ubuntu, and has wrecked palmer
<warp10> Hi all!
* Hobbsee changed the topic of #ubuntu-devel to: Most builds are currently failing | Archive: OPEN | Hardy Alpha 2 released | Development of Ubuntu (not support, not application development on Ubuntu) | #ubuntu for support and general discussion for dapper/edgy/feisty/gutsy, #ubuntu+1 for hardy | #ubuntu-motu for getting involved in development | http://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopment | See #ubuntu-bugs for http://wiki.ubuntu.com/HelpingWithBugs
<jhasse> Hi there! Hardy heron doesn't boot anymore. I only see the splashscreen and the scrollbar is moving from left to right until (after a long time) i end up in busybox and it tells my that /dev/disk/by-uuid/blabla couldn't be found. Can someone help me?
<Hobbsee> jhasse: /topic
<jhasse> Hobbsee: k
<Kopfgeldjaeger> remoin
#ubuntu-devel 2007-12-27
 * Hobbsee waves
<rootard> How are patches kept for Ubuntu sources that derive from Debian?
<somerville32> We publish all our patches to patches.ubuntu.com
<rootard> do patches get automatically applied to upstream Debian packages?
<somerville32> no
<somerville32> That would be a bad thing
<rootard> Even for "trivial" changes to upstream source?
 * Fujitsu wonders how we can apply changes to Debian.
<Hobbsee> Fujitsu: magic
<Hobbsee> rootard: only if debian decides to take them.  they also appear in debian's pts
<rootard> The reason I am asking is I am developing for Nexenta (apt on OpenSolaris) and we basically pull from Ubuntu sources.
<rootard> I am trying to find a good model to manage patches from upstream sources that will almost definitely not integrate a patch.
<rootard> In any case, thanks for the info.
<Amaranth> apt on OpenSolaris? Isn't it basically just Ubuntu/Solaris?
<Amaranth> kind of like Debian/kFreeBSD and such
<rootard> Yes, that's the idea... except that Solaris has a lot of things others don't.
<Hobbsee> like a different handling of rm -rf *
 * Hobbsee grumbles.
<rootard> Services being a prime example. /etc/rc* is honored but far from optimal.
 * Fujitsu glances at upstart.
<imbrandon> rootard: and sunc and lots of other stuff :) (i've done a few Nextenta packages too and have developer access etc , just dont use it much, guess i should pop over there more)
<imbrandon> if there were only two of me , hehe
 * dmb clones imbrandon 
<rootard> imbrandon: awesome :)
<dmb> taking a look at nextenta, they have a lot of work to do
<imbrandon> rootard: anyhow there is no "automatic" pushing of back upstream to debian, and even downstream its mostly manual, nextenta really needs a tool like DaD
<dmb> i feel it isn't nearly up to par development wise as ubuntu or other debian based distros
<imbrandon> dmb: yea the "core" is done and solid, but the "desktop" there is still TONS of work
<imbrandon> actualy TONS dont even begin to say how much there is
<imbrandon> heh
<dmb> imbrandon: does it autosync with ubuntu?
<imbrandon> no
<imbrandon> everything is manual well mostly everything
<rootard> imbrandon: agreed. What is DaD?
<imbrandon> they dont have the tools that we have to autosync from debian, but there is work to port them
<rootard> dmb: I am interested in making it do that.
<rootard> Some packages compile just fine directly from remote repositories. Other need help. Still... there are thee few that are a real pain.
<imbrandon> rootard: there are lots of scripts that help with alot of this type thing, lemme find the dad url and source , it would need modification to work but things like mdt and dad/mom should be simple first steps
<imbrandon> the good thing is they are all available , the bad thing is almost none of them are documented or in a central place
<imbrandon> heh
<rootard> Great! Sounds like an almost ideal situation! :)
<imbrandon> TheMuso is working on getting some of the cdimage stuff avail for public consumption, i dont recal the DaD maintainer but he is active ( in #ubuntu-motu )
<imbrandon> and there are lots others
<dmb> is there any irc chan for nextenta?
<rootard> #nexenta (which currently forwards to ##nexenta)
<imbrandon> infact i think i'll try to get some of the tools mentioned and urls to source/demos on my gnusolaris.org wiki soonish ( before newyears )
<dmb> i find nexenta very hard to spell :D
<imbrandon> dmb: 99% of the time i say gnusolaris :)
<rootard> imbrandon: sounds good, I recommend using nexenta.org instead though.
<rootard> gnusolaris.org will go away.
<imbrandon> ahhh, that sucks heh
<dmb> nexenta is way ahead of kfreebsd right now
<rootard> or at least forward to nexenta.org
<imbrandon> is it a mirror right now ?
<imbrandon> or do i have to recreate my account/wiki etc
<rootard> No. Some of the content is being moved over, other content is out of date and being abandoned.
<imbrandon> i have to admit i have worked on it a bit but havent interacted with any of the community at all yet, its quite small from what i can see
<imbrandon> ( dev community )
<rootard> Yes, it is small but there seems to be a lot of interest. So far as I can tell the project needs a little more infrastructure so people don't have to do as much work.
<imbrandon> rootard: since everythign is being moved and most packages are based off ubuntu ( with some pure debian mixed in ) why not push to use Launchpad for bug tracking ? )
<rootard> imbrandon: That is the current goal.
<imbrandon> cool, well i'm doing some perl hacking atm so i'm kinda busy but i'll touch base with you in a few ( hours maybe? ) aobut some of this stuff, i know most of the ubuntu proceedures ( as a core dev ) and the ones i dont i know generaly whom to ask mostly
<imbrandon> so maybe i can give yall a push
<imbrandon> and iirc i have write access to the nextenta RCS iirc , i would have to check
<imbrandon> havent used it in a few months
<rootard> imbrandon: I would appreciate that :) I'm actually up later than I should be. Maybe I can catch you soonish though?
<imbrandon> rootard: sure, i am too actualy ( its midnight here ) drop me an email brandon@imbrandon.com anytime
<rootard> Thanks, will do. Goodnight.
<Yurivilca> http://digg.com/2008_us_elections/Mike_Huckabee_If_you_vote_for_me_you_live_if_you_don_t
<Yurivilca> Check out Mike Huckabee's latest psychotic utterance!
<tritium> Yurivilca: please stay on topic
<tritium> I've already asked you to leave #ubuntu.  Please don't come in here with the same garbage.
<dmb> tritium: i think its a bot
<tritium> dmb: yeah, I believe so
<dmb> tritium: although its kind of pointless what he's spamming
<tritium> dmb: oh well
<dmb> i don't see who's making money in this deal :D
<aUser> hi, I'm trying to compile with pbuilder sylpheed 2.4.8
<aUser> actually in repos there is version 2.4.5
<aUser> when I start "compiling" with pbuilder
<aUser> I got:
<aUser> checking for pkg-config... no
<aUser> checking for GLIB - version >= 2.4.0... no
<aUser> *** A new enough version of pkg-config was not found.
<aUser> *** See http://www.freedesktop.org/software/pkgconfig/
<aUser> configure: error: Test for GLib failed. See the 'INSTALL' for help.
<aUser> make: *** [config.status] Error 1
<aUser> pbuilder: Failed autobuilding of package
<TheMuso> !pastebin | aUser
<ubotu> aUser: pastebin is a service to post large texts so you don't flood the channel. The Ubuntu pastebin is at http://paste.ubuntu-nl.org (make sure you give us the URL for your paste - see also the #ubuntu channel topic)
<aUser> Â -> Aborting with an error
<aUser> Â -> unmounting dev/pts filesystem
<aUser> Â -> unmounting proc filesystem
<aUser> Â -> cleaning the build env
<aUser> Â  Â  -> removing directory /var/cache/pbuilder/build//2530 and its subdirectories
<aUser> sorry http://rafb.net/p/FpkLfq31.html
<aUser> i copied debian/control dependencies from 2.4.5 to 2.4.8 too
<aUser> Build-Depends: debhelper (>= 5.0.22), libcompfaceg1-dev, libglib2.0-dev, libgtk2.0-dev, libpng12-dev, libgpgme11-dev (>= 1.0.0), libssl-dev, libpisock-dev, libldap2-dev, flex | flex-old, bison, gettext, libreadline5-dev, cdbs, libgtkspell-dev (>= 2.0), libonig-dev
<aUser> but it doesn't work
<aUser> have you any idea?
<TheMuso> aUse/c
<TheMuso> ugh
<TheMuso> aUser: hang on a sec
<TheMuso> aUser: WHat versino of pkg-config is it trying to find
<imbrandon> looks like a pretty streight forward error, "*** A new enough version of pkg-config was not found."
<aUser> i don't know
<aUser> it's not reported
<aUser> i'm using gutsy
<aUser> and I have built my env for pbuilder
<aUser> in different ways but with same results
<aUser> sudo pbuilder create
<aUser> sudo pbuilder create --othermirror
<aUser> modifing
<aUser> pbuilderrc
<aUser> etc
<aUser> but no differences
<TheMuso> aUser: You could explicitly add pkg-config to the Build-Depends field in debian/control.
<TheMuso> However, pkg-config may be installed in the pbuilder session anyway.
<TheMuso> gotta run
<imbrandon> likely and likely it needs the one in hardy
<imbrandon> later TheMuso
<aUser> I have added pkg-config on debian control just now
<aUser> and
<aUser> launched : debuild -S -uc -us
<aUser> and so pbuilder *.dsc
<aUser> and same error again
<aUser> how to install pkg-config in pbuilder session?
<Mithrandir> aUser: add pkg-config to the list of build-depends.
<aUser> just done it
<aUser> but not works
<Mithrandir> please put the pbuilder log in a pastebin, thn
<aUser> where can I find log u refer?
<Mithrandir> just cut and paste all the text by hand or something.
<aUser> http://rafb.net/p/Zz8nHS22.html
<aUser> log about launch of pbuilder *.dsc
<Mithrandir> do you have more than one .dsc file in the current directory?
<Mithrandir> if not, can you please provide a copy of that .dsc file?
<aUser> I have 2 dsc-file
<Mithrandir> please specify the right one rather than using *.dsc, then.
<aUser> ok using singularly file in:
<aUser> sudo pbuilder build sylpheed-debhelper_2.4.8-1.dsc
<aUser> I got error above but:
<aUser> with  sudo pbuilder build sylpheed-debhelper_2.4.8-1ubuntu1.dsc
<aUser> I got new  error:
<aUser> http://rafb.net/p/sUVe2t69.html
<aUser> it seems trying to download packages required
<aUser> but fails for The following packages are BROKEN:   pbuilder-satisfydepends-dummy
<warp10> Hi all!
<Mithrandir> aUser: seems like your build-dependencies can't all be satisfied.
<aUser> yes
<aUser> problem seems for  pbuilder-satisfydepends-dummy
<Mithrandir> no, read the log again.
<aUser> libcompfaceg1-dev and libonig-dev?
<Mithrandir> yeah, looks like it.
<aUser> ok I try to remove them from deb-control
<aUser> nice it's downloading dependencies now
<imbrandon> umm if you remove them its likely not to build , they were there for a reason likely
<aUser> it was for sylpheed 2.4.5
<aUser> for gutsy version
<aUser> i'm using pbuilder under gutsy
<aUser> ok I got a new error:)
<aUser> http://rafb.net/p/3bYn0B78.html
<aUser> configure: error: cannot run /bin/bash ./config.sub
<aUser> i followed MOTU guide
<aUser> or it's incomplete or pbuilder under gutsy is buggy or I miss something
<aUser> ok thanks for all, I go bye
<\sh> moins
* sladen changed the topic of #ubuntu-devel to: Archive: OPEN | Most builds are currently failing | Hardy Alpha 2 released | Development of Ubuntu (not support, not application development on Ubuntu) | #ubuntu for support and general discussion for dapper/edgy/feisty/gutsy, #ubuntu+1 for hardy | #ubuntu-motu for getting involved in development | http://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopment | See #ubuntu-bugs for http://wiki.ubuntu.com/HelpingWithBugs
<persia> sladen: What changed?
<Essope> persia: order swap
<sladen> persia: the archive state got moved back to the start
 * persia thinks the fact that uploads are useless due to build failures is more important than the fact that the archive is accepting uploads, but doesn't really care enough to change it back.
<sladen> persia: depends whether you have scripts that care
<persia> sladen: There are scripts that scrape this topic for display somewhere?  Where are the results?
<lamont> dear gnome, why do I have two items "Printing" under System-> Administration ?
<sladen> persia: in theory developer weather report, but for the moment only humans
<persia> sladen: Ah.  OK then.  Still, the archive is only pretending to be open now :)
<sladen> lamont: keeping the depths of the menus minmal, you /do/ have two printers right?
<lamont> sladen: 5 or so
<lamont> one says 'Configure printers' and the other says 'configure your printers'
<lamont> (modulo capitalization)
<sladen> persia: well if it's open, change it.  But if it opens and something downstream later breaks, then that would robably be different
<lamont> I wonder which one is correct...
<_MMA_> lamont: I would suspect if your install was a upgrade to Gutsy you have both printer config apps.
<lamont> s/correct/current/
 * sladen awaits the Grammar Nazis
<lamont> iz gutsy box, upgraded since at least dapper
<lamont> _MMA_: and my question is which one should I nuke?
<LongPointyStick> lamont: fix the buildds, will you?
<lamont> OTOH, the machine seems to have lost track of one of the printers.
<lamont> LongPointyStick: what's broken?
<_MMA_> gnome-config-printer is one right? And the other is system-config-printer?
<zul> hey
<LongPointyStick> lamont: libc6 error meaning that everything errors out after 40 seconds
<persia> lamont: They don't seem to have the libstdc++6 update from 24th December, and don't build anything.
<lamont> that sounds like an archive issue
<LongPointyStick> lamont: doesn't happen locally
 * lamont actually looks at the logs for something
<LongPointyStick> lamont: and palmer got trashed, due to debian fudgery.
<LongPointyStick> lamont: aka, trying to interactively pull cpan packages.
<_MMA_> lamont: I "though" system-config-printer conflicted with gnome-config-printer. I know I had both at one point. "system-config-printer" is the default now.
<soc> hi
<lamont> LongPointyStick: not something I can fix
<LongPointyStick> lamont: pity
<lamont> dpkg -l | grep printer | grep conf returns only system-config-printer
<LongPointyStick> lamont: i didnt' think so, but i thought it was worth a shot
<lamont> LongPointyStick: wget http://launchpadlibrarian.net/10891721/chroot-ubuntu-hardy-i386.tar.bz2
<lamont>  then untar and chroot into it.  dist-upgrade
<lamont> update/dist-upgrade, of course.
<lamont> once that automagically works, then builds will start succeeding.  short of that, a manual dist-upgrade and update the chroots in the librarian and all will be well.
 * lamont is capable of the first half of that.  no publishing ability
<lamont> --> infinity
<lamont> that assumes that the tarball hasn't been updated since early christmas eve, london time
<lamont> (the URL above, that is)
<LongPointyStick> right
<lamont> speaking of reboots, /me brb
 * persia gets "E: Internal Error, Could not perform immediate configuration (2) on libstdc++6" from apt-get dist-upgrade, and is confused, as it worked locally
 * lamont ponders the usefulness of beagled, if any, and how to access said usefulness
<lamont> _MMA_: so should I have the printer icon with the fold in the paper, or the one without?
<lamont> ah, gnome-cups-manager
 * lamont nukes
<lamont> hrm... xsane still hates the officejet
<TheInfinity> hello ... i dont know if its fixed in gutsy, but this bug still exists since edgy and it makes ubuntu not thaaat good prepared for network usage ... https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/openoffice.org/+bug/40537
<ubotu> Launchpad bug 40537 in openoffice.org "OpenOffice cannot write to NFS files" [Wishlist,Confirmed]
<lamont> TheInfinity: if it helps, installing mount on gutsy with nfs mounts in existance on the machine will force nfs-common to be installed, since that's required to mount nfs partitions at all now.
<albertito> Hi! I think this is the place to ask, if not, please excuse me. As some of you may know (most probably won't), Argentina will change its timezone for this summer from -3 to -2 this year
<albertito> This is the first time in years, and it was decided with a very short notice (it takes place on monday, and was just voted yesterday)
<albertito> I was wondering if ubuntu developers were aware of the situation and willing to update the tzdata package to reflect this change; and if not, what is needed to do so
<Chipzz> albertito: a lot of developers are on holidays around this time of the year
<Chipzz> also, there is currently some buildd borkage
<Chipzz> albertito: did you file a bug report?
<albertito> Chipzz: no, I thought to ask here first to avoid filing a bug for something that was already being addressed
<albertito> Chipzz: I'll file one, thanks
<Chipzz> albertito: check for dups first then
<albertito> Chipzz: I will
<Chipzz> albertito: oh yeah, don't forget to shoot the people who voted on this on such short notage ;)
<albertito> Chipzz: that would be most of the congress :S
<Chipzz> albertito: I was kidding oc, but seriously, they should have given this A LOT more thought
<albertito> Chipzz: the sad part is most scientists agree the change is actually wrong, and we should use -4 normally, and -3 for the summer... but well..
<albertito> Chipzz: I know, and I fully agree
<Chipzz> and really, everyone who voted for that actually deserves to be shot a little ;)
<Chipzz> to put them out of their misery; they're obviously getting senile ;)
<albertito> Chipzz: well, I don't know if "most scientists", but at least a lot of them with really good arguments =)
<albertito> Chipzz: I've reported the bug, it's at https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/tzdata/+bug/178924
<ubotu> Launchpad bug 178924 in tzdata "Argentina changes its timezone on 30/Dec/2007" [Undecided,New]
<norsetto> Since when scientists know better than politicians? Now, be serious ....
<RenatoSilva> Is there anyone here involved with Pidgin's integration with Network Manager?
<pochu> RenatoSilva: try #pidgin
<RenatoSilva> pochu: Sorry, I mean Network Manager code ;)
<stgraber> RenatoSilva: AFAIK the network manager just sends a dbus signal which is then caught by pidgin to connect/disconnect
<stgraber> so that's a pidgin plugin, nothing related to the Network-Manager other than sending a "You are connected" or a "You are disconnected" signal over dbus
<pochu> RenatoSilva: the integration should be implemented in pidgin. That's why I pointed you to #pidgin ;)
<pochu> hey stgraber
<stgraber> hi pochu
<RenatoSilva> Pidgin team say Network Manager sucks, they refused to fix a bug they say is of NM. They say Ubuntu team sohould not build and deliver pidgin with NM support
<RenatoSilva> pochu: Forget Pidgin ;)
<pochu> Oh, so it's already implemented, and you want it to be disabled?
<pochu> RenatoSilva: first, if pidgin developers think NM sucks, why do they integrate NM support?
<RenatoSilva> My Pigdin doen't connect when I start it, only qhen I change status. They say it's not Pidgin bug but Network Manager bug which doesn't tell Pidgin I'm connected when actually I'm really connected. When I had the NM icon on tray in fact it didn't detected my connection, which works absolutelly perfectly
<stgraber> NM only tracks connections done using NM
<RenatoSilva> pochu: Actually, I think there's a problem that is being ignored for stupid reasons, ignored by them at least
<pochu> RenatoSilva: I don't use Pidgin, so I can't tell it myself, but this bug 144754 seems related.
<ubotu> Launchpad bug 144754 in pidgin "[gutsy] pidgin does not go automatically offline when network is down" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/144754
<RenatoSilva> stgraber: that is what I told them all the time: I don't think rely on NM to get a connection, and hide this fact completely to the user, is a good idea, because NM is not perfect on detecting all connections actively. But the stupid solution they told me was myself to compile Pidgin without NM's support, or ask you to remove NM from your build.
<RenatoSilva> stgraber: Although NM+Pidgin's idea is really nice, about "connect when connected" and "disconnect when disconnected" etc...so remove NM would remove another functionality than this bug
<RenatoSilva> pochu: on Launchpad or Pidgin?
<pochu> RenatoSilva: see the link ubotu provided :)
<RenatoSilva> pochu: actually my bug is the contrary: Pidgin doesn't connect when opened, it stands "waiting for the connection", a connection which actually exists
<pochu> RenatoSilva: and bug 97591 even has a patch
<ubotu> Launchpad bug 97591 in pidgin "[gutsy] MSN waiting for network connection... but does not connect" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/97591
<pochu> RenatoSilva: like that one? ^
<RenatoSilva> pochu: I've just read the description, it seems the same kind of bug
 * Chipzz thinks that is a horrible idea btw
<pochu> And this and the other one could be related.
<Chipzz> windows also has that 'feature'
<Chipzz> "Lets close down all the internet connections as soon as you unplug the cable"
<ion_> Yeah :-D
<Chipzz> "Argh I just wanted to move my laptop and the cable was in the way!"
<Chipzz> "FSCK!"
<pochu> The bug is more likely "Pidgin doesn't want to connect even if NM says I'm connected".
<RenatoSilva> pochu: I'm reading the bugs
<RenatoSilva> pochu: or in their words: "Pidgin doesn't connect just because NM sucks and tell it there's no conncetion when actually there is"
<RenatoSilva> pochu: still reading...
<RenatoSilva> pochu: I suggested a simple solution for them, but they stupdly refused: When starting up, Pidgin could just try to connect and only then rely on NM
<RenatoSilva> guys, you modify source? For example, if Pidgin's team don't want to help you could yourself change code and we have a 'fake'?'
<Mithrandir> RenatoSilva: yes, we patch code.
<RenatoSilva> Mithrandir: this is the menaning of package version 1.0ubuntu1 >>> ubuntu1 means it's a kind of fork, a special version of ubuntu, right?
<Kmos> RenatoSilva: you should ask that type of questions at #ubuntu-motu channel
<RenatoSilva> Kmos: ok
<RenatoSilva> The way I understand that NM's patch is that it simply it makes NM "disconnect when disconnected", but wouldn't solve the fact of NM doesn't detecting a conn. Anyway I've write a comment there, hope that someone do something
<Kopfgeldjaeger> n8
<pwnguin> if I think a sync from debian will fix a bug in LP, should i file a seperate bug for the request?
#ubuntu-devel 2007-12-28
<Amaranth> pwnguin: I think you just add the appropriate tags to that bug
 * Hobbsee waves
<ion_> sinewaves
 * Hobbsee sends tan waves back
<Romes> er... yeah.... this might be a bit off topic, so don't feel obligated to respond...
<Romes> I just ventured in here to say thanks for all the hard work! I'm new to Ubuntu (and linux in general), and I can only imagine the scale of projects like this... so... thanks!!!
<Romes> oh, and keep up the good work ;)
<StratPlayedBlue> anyone know anything about getting things to compile with SSP?
<StratPlayedBlue> what a good channel to get some programming help? i've got a problem compiling something i wrote with stack overflow protection
<elkbuntu> StratPlayedBlue, many popular languages have a channel on freenode (eg, ##c, #python)
<StratPlayedBlue> elkbuntu: yeah i've asked in ##c but it's actually a pam module i wrote complaining about missing symbol __stack_chk_fail_local
<Burgundavia> StratPlayedBlue: there is an Ubuntu hardened mailing list
<joejaxx> Burgundavia: not very active :P
<StratPlayedBlue> lol
<joejaxx> but i would post anyway
<StratPlayedBlue> i wonder if there is a #pam-module-has-missing-ssp-symbol channel
<joejaxx> :)
<Hobbsee> so quiet....
<stgraber> and it'll be so noisy next week :)
<Hobbsee> hehe
<Hobbsee> that'll be fun
<afflux> what's next week?
<Hobbsee> people are back
<Hobbsee> or at least, after tuesday
<afflux> ah, see.
<stgraber> everyone coming back from holiday with tons of bugs :)
<stgraber> and lots of updates (as soon as the buildds start working again)
<\sh> hey Hobbsee :)
<Hobbsee> yeah well
<Hobbsee> would be nice to get teh buildds fixed
<Hobbsee> heya \sh!
<\sh> did anybody see the same strange things I have with my pbuilder? error messages because of the mount options of /var and some errors during update after libc6 tries to setup?
<elmo> what's wrong with the buildds?
<stgraber> E: Internal Error, Could not perform immediate configuration (2) on libstdc++6
<Hobbsee> elmo: check any recent build for hardy
<afflux> \sh: I just updated my hardy pbuilder, it looks good.
<elmo> is that not just a package problem?
<elmo> AFAIK that indicates an unresolvable depends or pre-depends cycle
<\sh> afflux: try to create a new one ;)
<Kmos> and palmer is not available..
<\sh> afflux: on hardy that is..
<elmo> palmer is not available until someone fixes ebug-http
<elmo> (or someone tells me LP magic to make sure ebug-http isn't retried)
<Hobbsee> <Fujitsu> +There's also a new tzdata which apt isn't smart enough to get, so the following will sort the chroots out `apt-get install libc6 tzdata && apt-get dist-upgrade'
<Hobbsee> elmo: can you kill it from teh archive theN/
<Hobbsee> urgh, caps.
 * Fujitsu appears.
<elmo> I could fix the chroots but is there no core-dev around to fix the archive?  I kinda think apt-get dist-upgrade should just work
<Hobbsee> elmo: no one else, apart from \sh, appears to have reproduced the error.
<Fujitsu> elmo: I can't work out why it won't work, but installing libc6 manually resolves it all.
<Hobbsee> on a normal system, it's not breaking.
<Fujitsu> And I've only seen it in the buildd chroots.
<\sh> Fujitsu: I had it on my chroots on this emt64 system too, during update
<persia> elmo: An updated libc can't be built to fix the problem, because libc doesn't work.
<Fujitsu> persia: That too.
<Fujitsu> \sh: Hmmm...
<\sh> creating a new chroot won't work because of some strange "/dev/null is not existing" and "/var is mounted noexec,nodev" foo bar
<\sh> I'll downgraded to gutsy and have to recreate everything from scratch and check again after upgrade to hardy
<elmo> let me grab the buildd chroot and see if I can reproduce it locally
<elmo> is there a bug on libc6 about it yet?
<Fujitsu> I don't think it's a libc6 bug.
<persia> elmo: It seems only to affect the buildds: non-buildd chroots haven't shown the error.
<Fujitsu> I've played around with the buildd chroot, but can't work out what apt thinks it's doing.
<Fujitsu> persia: \sh says otherwise.
<\sh> persia: I#m not having any buildd style chroots here
<Fujitsu> \sh: How out of date was the chroot you tried to upgrade?
<persia> \sh: And you get "E: Internal Error, Could not perform immediate configuration (2) on libstdc++6".  Interesting.  I thought you were having the debootstrap issue.
<\sh> Fujitsu: 2 days ... I killed everything yesterday night
<Fujitsu> That's strange, as I did a very similar upgrade to my hardy sbuild chroot this morning, and it worked fine.
<\sh> persia: I got two issues...first during update...with libc6...it complains about "libc6 not being part of dpkg installed bla"...
<\sh> persia: second is trying to create a new chroot..which failes because of some strange behaviour of "/var being mounted noexec,nodev" ...
<persia> \sh: That sounds slightly different to me, but maybe it's the same issue.
<\sh> but I always think it's me or my machine which gives me a bad time..so I'm trying to reproduce it
<\sh> most of the time the problem of the issue is sitting in front of the screen
<\sh> osi layer 9 ,-)
<Fujitsu> IIRC, (at least on i386) it happens because the new libstdc++6 wants lib64gcc1, which wants libc6-amd64, which wants the new libc6, which apt doesn't decide to install before it tries to install the rest. Installing libc6 manually and dist-upgrading works flawlessly.
<Fujitsu> I'm not sure why apt decides to do what it does, though
<Hobbsee> sounds like X, just with shorter names.
<\sh> Fujitsu: hmm...why does apt want to install 64bit stuff on i386?
<Fujitsu> \sh: Because libstdc++6 wants it.
<\sh> bah...easter egg xmas present...
<\sh> looks like it's the time  of the year where someone needs to buy new toys like nokia 6500 classic ,-)
<elmo> ok, it's trivially reproducable with the buildd chroots
<Fujitsu> Right, I think a number of us have downloaded the tarball and reproduced it.
<Fujitsu> elmo: I think you want bug #165041 for that ebug-http thing.
<ubotu> Launchpad bug 165041 in soyuz "Please allow manually marking packages 'failed'" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/165041
<Hobbsee> Fujitsu: file a bug saying "please implement cancelling builds" too
<elmo> Fujitsu: well, the buildd chroot isn't special, except in terms of versions
<Fujitsu> Hobbsee: It's there.
<Hobbsee> Fujitsu: ahh
<Hobbsee> Fujitsu: it hasn't loaded for me yet.
<elmo> Fujitsu: right?  I guess I'm confused by y'all saying it's specific to buildds
<Fujitsu> Hobbsee: No, not that bug. There's another bug for that.
<Hobbsee> ahh
<elmo> if we can agree it isn't, and get a bug filed on libc6, I can look at "fixing" the chroots
<Fujitsu> elmo: I said I've only been able to reproduce it in the i386 buildd chroot, but most hardy systems and chroots seem to have upgraded through that without an issue.
<Fujitsu> It could well apply to other system.s
<Fujitsu> But the buildds are likely to be special, in that they're not upgraded frequently.
<elmo> yikes
<Fujitsu> ?
<elmo> apt-get install libc6 without tzdata wants to pullout both tzdata and util-linux
<Fujitsu> Right, because it conflicts with tzdata << whatever-2
<Fujitsu> And apt is dumb.
<Fujitsu> (the dist-upgrade still doesn't work even with just the new tzdata)
<elmo> no, apt's not dumb
<elmo> it's working as documented
<\sh> Fujitsu: don't say this...it could be used against us ,-)
<elmo> whoever put the conflicts into libc6 was ... misguided
<Fujitsu> elmo: It's in Debian...
<Fujitsu> Debian bug #455783
<ubotu> Debian bug 455783 in libc6 "Script tzdata.postinst fails: /usr/bin/tzconfig not found" [Important,Fixed] http://bugs.debian.org/455783
<Fujitsu> I thought it a bit odd too, but it seems to work most of the time.
<elmo> conflicts has special meanings for essential packages, even virtually essential ones
<Fujitsu> Oh dear.
<Fujitsu> Even so, that's not the main cause of the failure.
<elmo> yeah it is?
<elmo> at least from my reading of debug::pkgorderlist=1
<Fujitsu> Is it? Installing tzdata doesn't resolve the dist-upgrade issue.
<Fujitsu> Or is it being extra-special even when it's not conflicting?
<elmo> hmm
<Fujitsu> elmo: Note that hackishly adding to libstdc++6 a pre-depends on the new libc6 convinces it to work, for some odd reason.
<elmo> yeah, ok, I give up, there does seem to be some element of a possible apt bug here - I'll start figuring out how to upgrade the chroots
<elmo> can anyone else mass give back stuff, or do I need to do that too?  (not sure if there's a web ui for it yet - or if anyone else is around)
<Fujitsu> elmo: No web UI.
<elmo> k
<Fujitsu> AFAIK a sysadmin or DBA has to do it.
<Kmos> I think i've fixed the ebug-http =)
<geser> or a click marathon
<elmo> Current default timezone: 'Africa/Abidjan'
<elmo> hmm
<Fujitsu> Hah.
 * Fujitsu missed that when he upgraded it.
<Kmos> http://launchpadlibrarian.net/11082313/ebug-http_0.31-1ubuntu1.debdiff
<Kmos> can someone check this one ?
<Kmos> Trying patch debian/patches/win32_ftbfs.patch at level 1 ... 0 ... 2 ... failure.
<Kmos> ups
<Hobbsee> ...
<Fujitsu> Better that it fails to build than hangs, I guess.
<Kmos> :)
<Kmos> i'm fixing it
<Hobbsee> Kmos: you asked that over 2 channels, before even testing the patch?
<Kmos> Hobbsee: the patch works.. the patch system is not working
<persia> Kmos: The patch may work: the debdiff doesn't work.
<Kmos> persia: i'm fixing it .. sorry
<elmo> ok, i386 is building again
<persia> elmo: Thank you
<elmo> doing at least amd64 too, the others may have to wait for a real buildd admin, unless anyone's particularly bothered
<Fujitsu> elmo: Thankyou muchly.
<Fujitsu> Is there any other real buildd admin than Adam?
<elmo> Fujitsu: nope
<elmo> Fujitsu: (there are others who can do what I've just done, but it's really Adam who should be doing it)
<Fujitsu> That's what I thought.
<Fujitsu> (although I thought there were three others...)
<Kmos> how about a mass give back ?
<Fujitsu> Erm, I misread, oops.
<elmo> Kmos: done for i386
<Fujitsu> We're not too far behind, fortunately.
<Kmos> elmo: thanks
<Fujitsu> Though with palmer gone...
<elmo> Fujitsu: so, there are plenty of folks who can do give backs and 'buildd admin'y stuff, but Adam's the one who does and should be doing chroot management
<elmo> Fujitsu: you still have 2 i386 buildds :-P
<Fujitsu> Yep.
<Fujitsu> Hopefully Kmos' ebug-http fix will work.
<Fujitsu> Then we can hopefully poke somebody to cancel that build..
<Kmos> the ebug-http is really strange.. some perl god here ?
<Kmos> if ($^O !~ /mswin32/i) { requires Test::Expect => 0;
<Kmos> }
<Fujitsu> elmo: Could you perhaps cancel it and throw the build score to something tiny, and hope that queue-builder doesn't reset it before the rest build?
<Kmos> this is for win32, and it's where it breaks.. i made a patch for it, to remove it.. but now it breaks in some testing
<Fujitsu> Kmos: !~
<Kmos> Fujitsu: that's the code in Makefile.PL
<Kmos> and it's not working
<Fujitsu> Kmos: Yes. So it's likely *not* for win32.
<Kmos> ah.. not for win32
<Kmos> != is really more easy =)
<Fujitsu> !~ != != :P
<ubotu> Sorry, I don't know anything about p - try searching on http://ubotu.ubuntu-nl.org/factoids.cgi
<Fujitsu> elmo: Were PPA builds also given back?
<elmo> Fujitsu: cprov's working on that now, we don't have a script for it, so he's having to giddy-up
<Fujitsu> Aha. Funl
<Fujitsu> *Fun.
<DktrKranz> Fujitsu, PPAs have been given-back
<elmo> ok, cprov's "fixed" ebug-http not to build again, so you now have palmer back too
<Fujitsu> Thanks.
<Fujitsu> Thankyou cprov.
<cprov> Fujitsu: you are welcome.
<elmo> ok, amd64 also done
* Kmos changed the topic of #ubuntu-devel to: Archive: OPEN | Hardy Alpha 2 released | Development of Ubuntu (not support, not application development on Ubuntu) | #ubuntu for support and general discussion for dapper/edgy/feisty/gutsy, #ubuntu+1 for hardy | #ubuntu-motu for getting involved in development | http://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopment | See #ubuntu-bugs for http://wiki.ubuntu.com/HelpingWithBugs
<Fujitsu> cprov: That was a rather good way to kill that build.
<cprov> Fujitsu: it's the only way we have atm :(
<Hobbsee> what, ripping otu the build system?
<Fujitsu> cprov: I note that the given-back PPA build records didn't have the data from the previous build erased. Is that normal?
<cprov> Fujitsu: they will be cleaned when they get dispatched
<Fujitsu> OK, I just thought there might have been an important reason that normal give-backs cleared it all.
<elmo> as an xmas special - lpia also done (although it doesn't appear to have any to give back...)
<Fujitsu> I don't believe it had the problem, did it?
<elmo> _well_
<Fujitsu> Only the main 4 did, as far as I could see.
<elmo> Fujitsu: I didn't actually check ;-)  oh well, lpia now has a fresher chroot *shrug*
<Fujitsu> That's good too.
<geser> http://qa.ubuntuwire.com/ftbfs/ reports only chroot problems for i386, amd64, sparc and powerpc
<Fujitsu> elmo: Thanks again.
<elmo> Fujitsu: np, sorry it took so long to respond
<Fujitsu> What alerted you to it?
<elmo> Hobbsee in #c-s, initially
<Hobbsee> oh wow, i didnt' think that worked
<geser> why does libstdc++6 now need both 32bit and 64bit libc installed?
<Fujitsu> geser: I was questioning that this morning.
<asac> hi!
<geser> Hi asac
<Fujitsu> Hey asac.
<asac> Hobbsee: do you have NEW power? ... if so, could you bin NEW nss so we can upload xul+ffox 3.0 beta2?
<Fujitsu> Has it actually built?
<asac> afaik yes
<asac> https://edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/nss/3.12.0~1.9b2+nobinonly-0ubuntu1
<persia> https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/hardy/+queue?queue_state=0&queue_text=nss is also a nice link to show that
<Hobbsee> asac: main or universe?
<asac> oh ... its main :(
<Hobbsee> bugger.  i was hoping you'd say universe.
<Hobbsee> asac: i can, but i'd really prefer not to
<asac> ok :)
<dasKreech> sabdfl: can I message you?
<RzR> hi there
<dasKreech> hi
<RzR> hi, is quilt encouraged in ubuntu package management ?
<Kmos> RzR: ask in #ubuntu-motu
<RzR> sure
 * ogra_cmpc wonders if anyone has ever seen the case that in initramfs nothing in /sbin is executable (actually the error is "file not found" even though the binaries are all there ... i.e. depmod and modprobe) but eveything in /bin works just fine
<psusi> nope
<jbailey> ogra_cmpc: Make sure your linker got copied in.
<ogra_cmpc> hmm
<jbailey> If you don't happen to have readelf handy, less should show the name of the linker in the first page or so as an embedded ASCIIZ string.
<ogra_cmpc> jbailey: well, its a freshly installed hardy .... only the originally installed initramfs works, all upqraded or newly created ones dont ... i'll check for read4elf
<jbailey> readelf is not going to be in the initramfs.
<jbailey> But if you're on a running systems with binutils installed, you'll have it.
<ogra_cmpc> yep, its there
<jbailey> ogra_cmpc: And the linker is executable?
<ogra_cmpc> you mean ld ?
<jbailey> ld.so or klibc.so-blahblahblabh
<jbailey> A file not found when executing a binary is almost always a dynamic linker problem.
<ogra_cmpc> i get a proper output on teh system at least ... i cant boot into teh broken initramfs atm
<jbailey> Can't use ldd to tell, it'll use the system paths.
<ogra_cmpc> ogra@ceron:~/initramfs$ ls -l lib/klibc*
<ogra_cmpc> -rwxr-xr-x 1 ogra ogra 64612 2007-12-28 20:03 lib/klibc-B9LS-Gjx2D7BYcbQig0RlgHKO9Y.so
<ogra_cmpc> looks ok to me
<jbailey> readelf -a sbin/modprobe |grep interpret
<ogra_cmpc> ogra@ceron:~/initramfs$ readelf -a sbin/modprobe |grep interpret
<ogra_cmpc>       [Requesting program interpreter: /lib/ld-linux.so.2]
<ogra_cmpc> aha
<ogra_cmpc> hmm
<jbailey> 'k, so now ls -l lib/ld-linux.so.2
<ogra_cmpc> ogra@ceron:~/initramfs$  ls -l lib/ld-linux.so.2
<ogra_cmpc> ls: lib/ld-linux.so.2: No such file or directory
<jbailey> Bingo
<ogra_cmpc> i bet that should be a link to klibc-*
<jbailey> No.
<jbailey> The initramfs contrains two C libraries, sadly.
<ogra_cmpc> oh, ok
<jbailey> It was something I wasn't able to resolve while I was working on it.
<jbailey> But the important question is to figure out why mkinitramfs didn't copy in the glibc bits that are needed.
<ogra_cmpc> it does in a freshly created ltsp chroot .... must be my install
<jbailey> Certainly, but this is a critical enough bit of infrastructure that whatever failed needs to have error handling and then send naked people across your screen with the errors tattooed on their bodies to make sure that you know it failed and don't reboot until it's fixed.
<jbailey> ogra_cmpc: How 'bout this...  Is your /boot full?
<ogra_cmpc> /dev/sda1              92M   45M   43M  51% /boot
<ogra_cmpc> nopoe
<ogra_cmpc> note that this install is manually bootsrapped on a raid0 ,,, i might have missed something
<jbailey> I'm certain you have.  My point is that this operation needs to be resilient against any possible mistake you could make.
<jbailey> Users will do all sorts of things that they should never do.  But the punnishment should never be that they can't boot again - which is a possibility with initramfs' that get overwritten.
<zul> hey jbailey merry christmas
<jbailey> Heya Chuck!  Happy new year?  /msg zul How's the munchkin?
<jbailey> Err.
<jbailey> zul: Consider that /msg'd =)
<abarbaccia> hello all - the lirc package in ubuntu gutsy is broken for all transmitters
<abarbaccia> how can i find the maintainer to repackage?
<pochu> abarbaccia: best is to file a bug in launchpad: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/lirc
<abarbaccia> pochu: I'm not sure what package it is exactly. I believe its acutally the lirc-modules-`uname -r` packages...
<abarbaccia> so should i post to that or jsut to lirc
<pochu> lirc is the source package of lirc-modules-source, so go for it.
<pochu> But first check for dups
<Ubulette> anyone got similar glib issues as bug 179119 ?
<ubotu> Launchpad bug 179119 in glib2.0 "glib 2.15 not clean with -pedantic" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/179119
<Ubulette> oops, meant for -desktop
<abarbaccia> pochu: thanks, i found a few people reporting that it doesn't work but with no clue on the solution. So i'm opening a new ticket with a better problem description. Thanks again.
<pochu> abarbaccia: why don't you just edit the description of one of those bugs? Or add a comment. And dup the rest.
<abarbaccia> pochu: im new to the system. sorry. I'll try to dupe the rest on the new bug I added
<dmb_> is there a guide on howto set up your own local apt repository?
<dmb_> i suppose http://www.debian-administration.org/articles/286 works, but is there anything ubuntu specific?
<mjj29> dmb_: works the same for both
<dmb_> mjj29: yeh, seems to work as well
<dmb_> mjj29: i was just a little dee dee dee for a second
<mjj29> I'm using debarchiver
<dmb_> which is the one the official ubuntu repo's use?
<mjj29> well the official debian ones use dak
<jpatrick> can someone here giveback kmplayer? Now that the builds are fixed
<mjj29> the description of which says 'if you don't have 10000 packages, use something else'
<dmb_> mjj29: does the ubuntu one use the same?
<mjj29> pass
<mjj29> I assume so
<mjj29> dunno what ppa uses
<azeem> Ubuntu uses soyuz I thought
<mjj29> azeem: google is quiet on the subject
<mjj29> ah, I see
<mjj29> fair enough
<dmb_> theres so many :D
<mjj29> The Future will apparently be DeBaBaRaReReReReReReRe tools
<mjj29> so debian planet tells me
<dmb_> :D
<imbrandon> dmb_: falcon ( http://falcon.kaarsemaker.net/ ) also makes short work of it too
<imbrandon> and is quite nice
<dmb_> mmm
#ubuntu-devel 2007-12-29
<dasKreech> dave matthews band?
<Fujitsu> Has anybody considered updating tzdata for tomorrow's Argentinian changes?
 * Hobbsee waves
<Fujitsu> Hey Hobbsee.
<Hobbsee> oh dear.  libc6 stuff.
<Fujitsu> Where?
<Hobbsee> updates
<Fujitsu> Only in Dapper.
<Fujitsu> The Argentinian government gave a nice amount of warning.
<Hobbsee> ah yes, i think #d-d was whining about it earlier
<Fujitsu> Probably.
<Fujitsu> Even so, we should probably push out updates at some point...
<jbailey> Hobbsee: libc6 is cuddly.
<azeem> hey Jeff
<azeem> <neal> you don't like to cuddle in bed with a copy of posix?
<jbailey> *lol*
<jbailey> azeem: When's that from? =)
<azeem> last week I think
<jbailey> And, no.  I created the susv3 package just so I didn't have to cuddle reference spec.  They don't warm me up as well as a nice conversation with drepper does.
<jbailey> =)
<Hobbsee> jbailey: personally, i can think of way more cuddly things...
<jbailey> Hobbsee: Bah!
<Hobbsee> people, for eg, are far more cuddly
<bddebian> Heya Jeff, Hobbsee
<jbailey> Heya Barry
<Hobbsee> hiya bddebian
 * Hobbsee heads off to murder a few more people
<bddebian> Hobbsee: Nice.  Need a list? :)
<jbailey> Hobbsee: You might consider a new year's resolution to not do that anymore...
<Hobbsee> bddebian: the ones at work are more than enough
<dasKreech> SCO
<dasKreech> Wait
<dasKreech> too late
<Hobbsee> jbailey: what, to quit work?
 * dasKreech crosses them off the list
<jbailey> dasKreech: Be nice to SCOXQ.PK.  They've provided years of entertainment.
<dasKreech> More than that they provided a court treatment of Linux
<jbailey> Hobbsee: Ah, has murdering grown into a career now?
<Hobbsee> "yeah, please let me return something that i've deliberately damaged, and you now can't make pristine again.  i paid good money for this"  *stab*
<dasKreech> truly valuable they were
<Hobbsee> jbailey: no, but christmas retail == grounds for murder.
<dasKreech> at .. 72 cents per stock
<jbailey> Hobbsee: Ugh.  Fair enough.
<Hobbsee> jbailey: i just need a dual-power cattle prod, and a lassoo.
<jbailey> Isn't that a taseR?
<Hobbsee> and maybe the work trapdoor to be built.
<Hobbsee> might be.  but they seem to kill people
<dasKreech> Or smithers
<Hobbsee> like, accidently
<dasKreech> Release the hounds
<jbailey> "accidentally"
<jbailey> Sure.
<bddebian> "Don't tase me bro.."
<dasKreech> ha ha
<Hobbsee> it's only when they repeatedly, deliberately, don't listen to what i say that they deserve to be tasered.
<jbailey> Sounds.. pandemic.
<Hobbsee> "listen to me, you idiot!  i am between you and leaving this store, adn getting to other things.  now PAY ATTENTION!!!"
<Hobbsee> jbailey: you see the merits of darwinism and survival of the fittest very well
<jbailey> Yeah.  I just worry how often I'd be on the wrong side of that line defending myself though.
<dasKreech> that there shoudl be max 6 people on the earth at any time?
<Hobbsee> jbailey: heh
 * Hobbsee --> gone to the hellhole of christmas retail.
<jbailey> I should head home, too.
<jbailey> Happy NY all. =)
<dasKreech> Happy belated?
<jbailey> Well, I meant the *next* New Year coming up.
<jbailey> But sure, for the previous one if you'd prefer. =)
<dasKreech> Oh you
<dasKreech> Ha I read that as New New York for some reason
<dasKreech> Stupid Futurama movie
<dasKreech> Anyway I was talking about Hobbsee going out to christmas
<Forbr4d3> hello
<dmb> will ubuntu always use apt?
<dmb> i thought i remember in the past hearing something about the dropping of it, I could be wrong though
<dasKreech> dmb: Eh?  for what?
<dmb> package management
<dasKreech> Duh I meant drop it in favour of what
<dmb> not sure, just thought i remember reading about it somewhere
<dmb> i'll see if i can find it again
<dmb> it was a long time ago
<dasKreech> Might have been killed then?
<dasKreech> cause it would have been interesting to apt-get dist-upgrade and have it remove apt-get as part of the upgrade
<dasKreech> actually now I wanna see it happen :)
<dmb> that would be pretty cool :D
<dasKreech> Not as much as I wanna see LTS->LTS
<dasKreech> but I guess I won't get that chance :-(
<dmb> what do you mean?
<dasKreech> Which part did I lose you at?
<dmb> LTS->LTS
<dasKreech> Well if you offer a Long Term support contract to someone and they take you up on it they are going to ride it out as long as they can
<dasKreech>  and presumably then will only upgrade into another long term stable situation
<dasKreech> since stability and reliabilty are more important than new things and features
<dmb> oh
<dasKreech> so if someone is on a LTS release then they will only dist-upgrade into another LTS release
<dasKreech> so for Hardy you have to be able to upgrade from Gutsy AND Dapper
<dasKreech> Think of all the stuff that has changed since Dapper and you will see why this should be quite fun :)
<dmb> ohhh, i see what your saying
<dmb> dasKreech: will it work at all if you change the repos to hardy and dist-upgrade?
<dasKreech> dmb: from ?
<dmb> dapper
<dasKreech> That's the point it should
<dasKreech> we have never done an upgrade from older than 6 months
<dmb> so i guess it doesn't :(
<dmb> i wonder what would go wrong?
<dasKreech> now we have to do one from 24 months
<dasKreech> Think of it
<dasKreech> if you have done that
<dasKreech>  then it can go wrong :)
<dasKreech> After the first one it will get boring probably
<timfrost> dmb, dasKreech: no guarantees - Hardy is *not* an LTS release (hardy+1 may be), so no guarantees
<dasKreech> timfrost: Sorry?
<dmb> oh, i thought hardy was a lts?
<dasKreech> when was that announced?
<dmb> this is news to me
<dasKreech> as am I
<dasKreech> the specific line I recall is that while the main and gnome packages would be covered by LTS the KDE packages would not
<dasKreech> Which speaks to me as saying that it IS an LTS
<timfrost> dmb, dasKreech: just checked the archives, and I was wrong - the announcement of Hardy by Steve Langasek in October does mention 'Ubuntu 8.04 LTS'
<dmb> ok
 * dasKreech nods
<dmb> scared me for a second :D
<dasKreech> Right so that's what I'm waiting for
<dasKreech> dmb: Tell me about it! there goes ALL my entertainment
<timfrost> dmb, dasKreech: which means that it should support direct upgrade from either dapper (LTS-LTS) or gutsy
<dmb> interesting...
<dasKreech> Exactly which I think is going to be good enough to get out a tub of popcorn for
 * dasKreech goes to bed
<dmb> am I the only one who ever remembers reading on the the dropping of apt?
<Burgundavia> dmb: huh?
<Burgundavia> where did you read that?
<dmb> i think i'm just out of my mind, but i remember a couple releases back on the ubuntuforums under the development section
<timfrost> dmb: There was discussion about the upgrade interface (command line dist-upgrade vs update-manager etc) is that what you are thinking of?
<dmb> don't think so...
<dmb> i'm going to use archive.org to see if i can find it
<Amaranth> I think you mean people saying to use aptitude instead of apt
<Amaranth> Personally I think they're full of crap, aptitude is too hard to use
<superm1> and i've seen it cause more trouble than a lot of people want to deal with
<dmb> i personally find it easier to use command line apt then aptitude
<superm1> dmb, i do recall seeing something similar being spread on the forums for a bit too though
<dmb> i don't think it was about aptitude vs apt though
<dmb> maybe i just dreamed this :D
<dmb> Amaranth: actually, i think your right
<dmb> i was stupid back then
<dmb> http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=190187
<Amaranth> superm1: Some debian documentation says to use aptitude over apt
<superm1> particularly http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=205766
<superm1> i remember pointed it at http://www.psychocats.net/ubuntu/aptitude
<Amaranth> superm1: I think it just means for upgrades but others disagree so they push for you to use aptitude everywhere
<Amaranth> Last time I tried to use aptitude on a problem apt couldn't fix it wanted to remove a bunch of stuff and I think it talked about downgrading a couple things too
<dmb> aptitudes ui is crap
<dmb> didn't even know that you can interface with a mouse with ncurses
<Amaranth> superm1: that psychocats website is of course completely wrong now that we have apt-get autoremove :)
<superm1> exactly
<superm1> but that was the only selling point to aptitude that i ever saw
<superm1> is there a difference in installing files into /etc/modprobe.d and /etc/modutils?
<superm1> it appears more modern apps are installign into /etc/modprobe.d
<superm1> modprobe.d is for newer kernels i would suspect using module-init-tools?
<Hobbsee> dmb: was probaly the possible switching from apt to smart, i expect
<Hobbsee> dmb: along with a whole bunch of other infrastructure change
<TheMuso> Hobbsee: We have switched to smart?
<Hobbsee> TheMuso: no, hence it was the possible switching
<Hobbsee> TheMuso: it was discussed a few releases ago
<TheMuso> Hobbsee: Ah ok.
<Hobbsee> TheMuso: no more source packages, etc
<TheMuso> Sorta came in half way through the conversation.
<Hobbsee> TheMuso: i read backscroll, and gave that answer.  not hard to do
<TheMuso> Hobbsee: True.
<TheMuso> Ah yes.
 * TheMuso finally locates the relevant piece of text.
<tak2> hey there =)
<tak2> nobody there ? 'got a question to ask : does anyone encouter problems with X and a ATI card ? I've got a mobility radeo 9600 and X freezes if I use ati or fglrx ... i'ven't found any trick to fix this ...
<persia> tak2: You might try searching for an existing bug from https://bugs,launchpad.net/ubuntu/, or asking on #ubuntu-bugs to talk about bugs.  If you're looking for a workaround, you'd do best on #ubuntu or #ubuntu-xx eith -xx as your country code (or #ubuntu+1 for hardy), or submitting your query to https://answers.launchpad.net/ubuntu/
<persia> s/eith/with/
<tak2> ok thanks persia I'll try this, thanks :)
<geser> Hi pitti
<pitti> hey geser, how are you?
<geser> good, and you?
<pitti> pretty fine, we are preparing my wife's bday party
<CheGuevara> ping pitti
<theunixgeek> Wouldn't compile-time substitution of preprocessor definitions slow down the compilation process?
<mjj29> um, yes?
<mjj29> as opposed to what?
<theunixgeek> having constant variables instead of preprocessor definitions
<mjj29> that has other drawbacks
<mjj29> the compiler can't optimize them as well
<theunixgeek> ok
<CheGuevara> lol
<psusi> what happens if udevd is killed and restarted?  does it process events  for all existing devices again? or is that only done when udevtrigger is run in the boot scripts?
<tab> hey, is there anyone here that works on the psubuntu?
<alazar> so, what do i install to get the X includes?
<jpatrick> for a package, or just header file?
<alazar> Initially I was looking for a pkg w/ add/remove software, now I've got synaptic open
<alazar> I've seen a few things on the forums to load so I'm working on that
<alazar> but a definitive answer would be useful
<jpatrick> are there any main sponsers around?
<ajmorris> hi, who can i talk to about the development of the ubuntu minimal cd?
#ubuntu-devel 2007-12-30
<khermans> i think the ubuntu 7.10 server image was created incorrectly
<dmb> khermans: what makes you say that?
<khermans> dmb, the vmx file is configured for 64-bit but this is a 32-bit vmware
<dmb> oh, the vmware appliance?
<khermans> dmb, the isv image, yes
<khermans> http://isv-image.ubuntu.com/vmware/Ubuntu-7.10-server-i386.zip
<khermans> dmb, so errors come up when you run it
<khermans> dmb, its a simple fix, but i thinks its a bad release
<dmb> ill try and see if i can confirm
<khermans> dmb, let me know if you find the same
<khermans> dmb, i have to go now -- but i signed up on ubuntu-release -- maybe we can discuss on there
<khermans> or feel free to email me any questions; kristian.hermansen ..at.. gmail.com
<gustavonarea> Hello. I'm learning Python and I'd like to have a look at real-world Python applications. I know Canonical/Ubuntu's developers are fond of Python, so I'd like to know what Python-powered application in the Ubuntu project you recommend me to have a look at? Thanks in advance.
<gustavonarea> BTW, I'm willing to contribute code
 * emgent heya
<|DuReX|> is there some descent fix for dmraid compatibility with udev ?
<mpt> |DuReX|, it's the holidays, so likely few developers are really here
<|DuReX|> to bad :(
<|DuReX|> i edited a udev rule
<|DuReX|> now i don't have those gay 'attempt to access beyond drive limit' anymore :p
<|DuReX|> but i need to find out how to make it creates a /dev/disk/by-uuid for the dmraid devices
<warp10> Bug #179407 Is there any reason why kubuntu-desktop shouldn't recommend ubufox?
<ubotu> Launchpad bug 179407 in kubuntu-meta "kubuntu-desktop should recommend ubufox" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/179407
<blueyed> warp10: does it recommend firefox?
<blueyed> Does not look so.
<CheGuevara> yeah we don't have firefox installed by default
<CheGuevara> so why would we have ubufox
<blueyed> Makes no sense without firefox, yes.
<warp10> blueyed, CheGuevara: but both xubuntu-desktop and edubuntu recommends firefox and ubufox. Does kubuntu-desktop installs another browser by default?
<CheGuevara> yes
<blueyed> yes, konqueror.
<CheGuevara> konqueror
<warp10> CheGuevara, blueyed: Ok, thanks, I'll report it in the bug report
<CheGuevara> don't worry about it i'll close it
<warp10> CheGuevara: ok, ty
<CheGuevara> np
<theunixgeek> How do I access the emacs menus?
<jpatrick> theunixgeek: support in #ubuntu
<imbrandon> warp10: because kubuntu dosent use firefox, we use konqueror are the default browser
<warp10> imbrandon: yeah, now I know that. I've just never used KDE and doesn't know it (almost) completely :)
<Ubulette> could someone approve nss in hardy's NEW-bin queue ? it's blocking firefox 3 since Dec 22 :(
<CheGuevara> Ubulette: not the best timing
<Ubulette> i know but users dont care about timing, they keep asking me why it takes so long
<crimsun> paid developers have lives aside, too.
<CheGuevara> true, but not archive admins will be here
<CheGuevara> i myself got 3 packages in the queue
<crimsun> a few more days until post 2008-01-01 won't kill anyone dying for ff3
<UberCanuck> anyone want to review a patch i submitted?
<crimsun> patch to what and where?
<UberCanuck> pan
<UberCanuck> Bug #179417
<ubotu> Launchpad bug 179417 in pan "Viewing large images broken" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/179417
<imbrandon> heya crimsun
<imbrandon> Ubulette: you have to wait untill an archive day after the scheduled holiday break, btw did you fix the probelmwith ff3 icon not showing in KDE ?
<Ubulette> imbrandon, yes
<imbrandon> cool, just checkin :)
<CheGuevara> UberCanuck: would be quicker if you post a debdiff and not just a patch
<UberCanuck> CheGuevara: kewl - will do
<CheGuevara> UberCanuck: is it a universe package?
<Ubulette> crimsun, ok, i'll tell those begging users that they should have a life too, ubuntu being closed until further notice
<imbrandon> Ubulette: its not further notice, its a scheduled break , see the release schedule
<UberCanuck> CheGuevara: main
<Ubulette> imbrandon, it was a sarcasm
<imbrandon> Ubulette: i know, i just dident appreciate the sarcasm , so i added a bit of my own :)
 * imbrandon hugs Ubulette 
<imbrandon> anyhow , to give them a realistic ETA if thats what you are after is jan 3 , that give everyone time to get back and check the queues and it to build etc
<imbrandon> might be sooner or a bit later but that is a "good estimate"
<Ubulette> imbrandon, i don't like it when I work to produce timely updates and being blocked for weeks when a simple click is needed. so next time, i won't care about being in sync with upstream. that's it. I've learned my lesson.
<imbrandon> a simple "click" isnt all thats needed for NEW packages, actualy its the longest process we have
<imbrandon> it takes alot of review to get through the NEW queue
<Ubulette> in that case, it's just a soname bump
<imbrandon> licenses, suid bins , general package errors etc etc etc
<Ubulette> ..coming from debian
<crimsun> UberCanuck: it seems http://bugzilla.gnome.org/attachment.cgi?id=100069&action=view is more appropriate.  Why does Pan need an additional patch?
<imbrandon> Ubulette: i understand your frustration , but again relize this only happens once a year, just unfortunate timing
<UberCanuck> crimsun: <shrug> because the version I'm using is still broken - so the upstream hasn't hit my laptop yet
<UberCanuck> crimsun: is the bug still valid?
<crimsun> lool: / slomo: Are either of you around to pull in the patch posted at gnome #477860?  (http://bugzilla.gnome.org/attachment.cgi?id=100069&action=view)
<ubotu> Gnome bug 477860 in general "Pan has trouble displaying large jpegs using gtk+ 2.12" [Critical,Resolved: fixed] http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=477860
<crimsun> lool: / slomo: sorry, that's gnome 494667.
<ubotu> Gnome bug 494667 in gdk-pixbuf "gdkpixloader jpeg loader problems with some files" [Critical,Resolved: fixed] http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=494667
<crimsun> UberCanuck: it's not a Pan bug
<UberCanuck> crimsun: true, but its derived in pan when the change happened within pixbuf
<crimsun> UberCanuck: I'd rather wait for a DD to upload to Debian so that it can be synced into Ubuntu.
<UberCanuck> crimsun: okay - thanks
<ThorstenSick> Hi
<CheGuevara> hi
<ThorstenSick> I've got a question. Who to contact if I got some security-related design ideas ?
<CheGuevara> is it something you want to keep private?
<ThorstenSick> No, not at all.
<ThorstenSick> Is there a specific person managing security features ? Or just this channel ?
<CheGuevara> there's security@ubuntu.com
<CheGuevara> but tahts to report vulnurabilities
<CheGuevara> ubuntu-devel@lists.ubuntu.com might be more appropriate
<ThorstenSick> On this list there was a discussion a few weeks ago about what to do when some pages just tell the user to sudo <evilstuff>...with no result.
<ThorstenSick> I think there is still lots of stuff to do to make a one-user-who-is-admin ubuntu more secure
<mpt> CheGuevara, https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
<ThorstenSick> Thanks. I am a member of this list already. I will try to sort my thoughts and write a mail as small as possible :-)
<mpt> ThorstenSick, that was discussed on LugRadio too :-)
<mpt> The problem with pages telling people to sudo <evilstuff>, I mean
<ThorstenSick> And AFAIK some pages already tried it. I do not know how successful.
<mpt> I think the answer lies in considering why Windows and Mac OS X don't have the same problem
<mpt> (They have other security problems, but not this one)
<ThorstenSick> The normal windows user has admin rights. But they do not enter some obscure stuff at the command line normally.
<mpt> Exactly
<ThorstenSick> For linux newbies, doing obscure stuff is normal
<mpt> In the Windows and Mac OS X user base, there is a culture that if some Web page is asking you to enter commands in the terminal *at all*, it's highly suspicious
<ThorstenSick> And people won't find the terminal
<mpt> That's part of it, yes
<ThorstenSick> But windows user click on every icon they see. (And the executable rights are tied to the file extension)
<mpt> Right, that's why I said "They have other security problems, but not this one"
<ThorstenSick> :-)
<mpt> So "all" we need to do is get to the point where a non-programmer never needs to use the terminal to use Ubuntu.
<mpt> Then they'll start treating instructions to enter stuff into the terminal as suspicious, and rightly so.
<ThorstenSick> And add some better warning "You are entering a dangerous area. Beware of wild animals"
<mpt> It can be dedicated to those people who know what they're doing, or who are using a trusted source of information (e.g. a book on how to learn programming).
<ThorstenSick> Yes. Is there a plan to implement a collection of small scripts to solve all the little problems the users have ? These could be signed.
<mpt> There's no *single* plan for that
<mpt> Individual things that require non-programmers to use the terminal (or to edit text configuration files) tend to be replaced by individual graphical utilities, which have individual specifications
<mpt> (even when they would make more sense as additions to existing utilities, unfortunately)
<ThorstenSick> It will take lots of time to implement all the small fixes the users want.
<mpt> yep
<mpt> TANSTAAFL.
<ThorstenSick> An easy to where every one could write a plug in without much experience would be more effective, I think. There will always be a small feature missing.
<mpt> An easy what?
<ThorstenSick> Sorry
<ThorstenSick> An easy API.
<ThorstenSick> A tool just offering a menu to all the plug-ins. Each one solving a small problem.
<mpt> An easy API is important for all sorts of programming, not just for small utilities :-)
<mpt> Can you give an example or two?
<ThorstenSick> Jepp. But here I want the people normally writing the howtos and wikis to be able to write a plug in.
<ThorstenSick> should just be something like:
<ThorstenSick> copy(file1, file1.backup)
<ThorstenSick> add_line(file1,"new host")
<ThorstenSick> The user should be able to see what it does, before executing the plug in.
<ThorstenSick> (The plug in copies the file x to y and adds the line FOO to it)
<ThorstenSick> The plugin must be reviewed, signed and released
<mpt> What is file1 in this example?
<ThorstenSick> In a working example it is a specific config file.
<mpt> Which config file?
<ThorstenSick> Let me just write a specific example. Still pseudo code:
<ThorstenSick> http://ubuntuguide.org/wiki/Ubuntu:Gutsy#Manual_Method
<ThorstenSick> copy("/etc/apt/sources.list", "/etc/apt/sources.list_backup")
<mpt> I think that's a good example of why this would be a bad idea :-)
<ThorstenSick> ....
<ThorstenSick> Why ?
<mpt> update-manager does special things to ensure that the upgrade from 7.04 to 7.10 works
<mpt> I don't know the details, but I do know that it's more than just changing the sources.list and doing apt-get update
<ThorstenSick> Ok
<mpt> Following that manual process specified on ubuntuguide.org will work sometimes, but it's not guaranteed to work.
<ThorstenSick> I seem not to be good at choosing examples :-)
<ThorstenSick> My intentions are:
<mpt> So you're much better off using the graphical method
<ThorstenSick> a) Have a restricted API. So the script writer can not execute every command from command line (like with a system call)
<mpt> and Ubuntu is better off encouraging you to use the graphical method, rather than implementing a process for signing the script to use the manual method.
<ThorstenSick> b) Be able to output what the plug in will do before it does anything
<pochu> And you can add repositories from Software Sources.
<mpt> ThorstenSick, who are you proposing would sign the scripts, anyway?
<ThorstenSick> c) Have plugins which can easily be reviewed
<mpt> Reviewed by who?
<ThorstenSick> I fear the only one who can sign it are ubuntu "officials" these scripts must be in the normal repositories
<ThorstenSick> The central idea is to move the scripts away from the untrusted web to the trusted repository
<|DuReX|> it sux that Ubuntu fucks up UUID's with dmraid :(
<mpt> ThorstenSick, many of the current "Enter this stuff in the terminal" instructions are to achieve things that weren't foreseen when the OS was released.
<mpt> For example, installing versions of software that aren't packaged for that release.
<mpt> Or doing particular things with X to work around bugs that weren't known at the time.
<CheGuevara> !language | |DuReX|
<ubotu> |DuReX|: Please watch your language and topic to help keep this channel family friendly.
<mpt> If you're saying these scripts should be in the official repositories, then why not just fix the particular problems properly in the official repositories instead?
<ThorstenSick> Then there would be no way to get these instructions of the web
<mpt> For example, package the new versions of the software, or fix the bugs in X, or whatever.
<|DuReX|> i'm trying to get it working for 3 days now, seems like nobody can help me ?
<CheGuevara> |DuReX|: #ubuntu is the help chanel
<|DuReX|> nobody there seems able to help me ... :s
<mpt> |DuReX|, have you tried #ubuntu, <http://forums.ubuntu.com/>, and <https://answers.launchpad.net/ubuntu>?
<ThorstenSick> The fix would be the best solution. Together with GUI tools.
<|DuReX|> yes mpt :(
<mpt> ThorstenSick, so how are you proposing that a user get from seeing the script on the Web, to installing the script from an official repository?
<ThorstenSick> The web page must offer the id of the script to solve the problem (If you also got the same problems with X, Plug in number 123 solves it)
<ThorstenSick> Mayb add some special link to the page
<ThorstenSick> These scripts must be updated _between_ releases.
<imbrandon> sounds like a fix for things like that just need to hit SRU or backports, instead of scripts
<mpt> |DuReX|, if it's important enough that you're willing to pay to get it fixed, try <http://www.ubuntu.com/support/commercial/marketplace>
<imbrandon> educating people about those would be far more helpfull than a whole new sytem
<crimsun> there's also something that leaves a sour aftertaste regarding randomly installing plugins to resolve problems.  (Not that I have much room to speak.)
<mpt> ThorstenSick, an URL protocol so you could click on a link in a Web page, and have the package manager launch with the relevant package selected, would be very nifty -- but it would be nifty for every package, not just for scripts :-)
<ThorstenSick> I fear it is almost impossible to do security education
<mpt> And if you're suggesting that problems be solved between releases, some already are, but most (nearly all) are solved by updated packages rather than by new workaround scripts
<mpt> most -> most of those
<ThorstenSick> It is not a perfect solution. The best soultion would be to have everything running out of the box. If this is not possible, we should offer an easy way to fix the problems without messing with the system
<mpt> If writing a script was an efficient way of fixing problems between releases, I expect the developers would be doing that much more often, instead of just releasing fixed packages as they do.
<ThorstenSick> A fixed package must be tested.
<mpt> So must a script!
<ThorstenSick> So must a script. But a script is small. With only a few dependencies
<crimsun> they're also capable of doing interesting things, e.g., the first few revisions of automatix.
<ThorstenSick> most of the tips are just "sudo apt-get install foo" tips. With a few settings afterwards or before (adding new repos)
<ThorstenSick> These could be moved to "start synaptic..."
<mpt> I think adding arbitrary new repositories is reintroducing the security problem you're trying to solve
<ThorstenSick> Yes, it is. But there we could enforce signing :-)
<mpt> signing by who? :-)
<mpt> "sudo apt-get install foo" instructions could be replaced by the URL handler I mentioned
<mpt> that passes off to the package manager
<ThorstenSick> Sorry. i do not want to add new repos. i was just reading the ubuntuguide wiki
<ThorstenSick> Doing som small statistics
<ThorstenSick> s/som/some/
<ThorstenSick> Cleaning this wiki and others of every line starting with sudo by either adding the URL handler or bugfixes would help
<ThorstenSick> Everything left would be a candidate for these plugin script system
<mpt> This reminds me of <http://hivelogic.com/articles/installing-mysql-on-mac-os-x/> and <http://diveintomark.org/archives/2007/11/11/installing-mysql-on-ubuntu> (read them in that order)
<ThorstenSick> :-)
<ThorstenSick> I love Debian and Ubuntu
<imbrandon> also apturl should take care of most of this
<imbrandon> another release or two and all releases should have it
<imbrandon> hehe
<ThorstenSick> This would remove many of the sudo tips
<imbrandon> btw does kubuntu support apturl ?
<mpt> ooooo noooo
<imbrandon> ?
<mpt> apturl uses "Yes" and "No" buttons
<imbrandon> ahh i wasent sure if it called synaptic
<imbrandon> or did it its self
<imbrandon> was more what i was asking :)
<imbrandon> i hadent actualy looked at it
<mpt> but still, that's 90% of the way there
<imbrandon> oh definately
<mpt> Now nag all the tutorial sites to start using it :-)
<imbrandon> heh nag christer and everyone else will follow in line :)
 * imbrandon jokes
<imbrandon> mpt: dident you author apturl ?
<Chipzz> ThorstenSick: you really can not be serious about fixing things with scripts. Have you seen the problems caused by automatix?
<mpt> imbrandon, I think you've confused me with a programmer
<Chipzz> also "a script"
<imbrandon> mpt: hehe
<soren> imbrandon: I think mvo is who you're looking for :)
<imbrandon> probably, not really "looking for" though :)
<ThorstenSick> I do not want to fix all the problems with script. They should be a work around till the problem is solved. Thes should substitute the scripts printed on web pages telling the user to sudo this and sudo that.
<imbrandon> ThorstenSick: what about just fixing it in the dev release and backporting the fix, then even those that dont read the tutorial benifet
<ThorstenSick> At the moment users a trained to copy everything they read online into a terminal
<ThorstenSick> Would be the best solution.
<imbrandon> my point is there are already things in place to "fix" your problem, they are just under utilized imho
<ThorstenSick> But as long as there are pages telling the users to solve their problems using sudo in terminals, this is a vulnerability of ubuntu
<mpt> ThorstenSick, the reason you want to substitute the instructions on Web pages is to make them more secure, and the only way to make them more secure is to apply all the same procedures as happen for real fixes, and if you're going to apply all the same procedures, you might just as easily do that in fixing the problem properly.
<imbrandon> exatly what i was trying to say, but mpt said it better
<imbrandon> exactly*
<mpt> There is no "Free Lunch" setting on this slider.
<ThorstenSick> sudo wget ht tp://malware-online.com/stuff; chmod +x stuff; ./stuff
<imbrandon> ThorstenSick: those will *ALWAYS* exist, even if we make this script repo, there wills till be someone that says "its just easyer for me to blog about how to fix it manualy , than subit a script for review" then your back to square one with a new security layer to maintain
<ThorstenSick> I want to offer all thos volunteers an alternative to write a web page with tips. I want to create a system where tips and tricks can be signed.
<imbrandon> ThorstenSick: then make a "proof-of-concept" no one says the ubuntu repos have to be the only "trusted" ones many community repos have become "trusted" like seveas's etc
<imbrandon> but again i agree with mpt 100% , if your gonna do that might as well fix the real problem
<Chipzz> imbrandon: but what if it isn't actually "a problem"
<imbrandon> backports and SRUs dont have to be slow, if people were educated more to request new ones correctly it would help greatly with your problem
<mpt> Was seveas the one who put an updated screensaver package in his repository, which changed the default background picture to a big warning not to use third-party repositories willy-nilly?
<imbrandon> mpt: yea iirc
<Chipzz> imbrandon: say, just a very simple example (and a bad one since we have a GUI for that already), enabling universe/multiverse by editing /etc/apt/sources.list ?
<Chipzz> imbrandon: or enabling a feature by editting a config file in general?
<mpt> http://www.flickr.com/photo_zoom.gne?id=296804891&size=o
<imbrandon> Chipzz: still better to fix the underlying problem ( and those are on by default now since feisty iirc )
<imbrandon> which in this case it was fixed
<imbrandon> mpt: hahah yea thats the one
<ThorstenSick> Good idea
<Chipzz> imbrandon: lets say I have a tutorial on my webpage explaining how to use LDAP for logins. How do you suggest "fixing" that? You can not enable LDAP by default, since you don't know the server, and most people do not want LDAP enabled logins
<Chipzz> imbrandon: what do you suggest "the underlying problem" is there, and which package would you fix?
<imbrandon> Chipzz: he isnt sugesting replacing tutorals , he is saysing for working arround "problems"
<Chipzz> (yes I'm aware that there is a package being developed to make it easier to configure)
<imbrandon> tutorals will always exist
<mpt> Chipzz, pester ajmitch to finish his LDAP configuration utility so that Ubuntu ships with a graphical utility to do that. Then, write the tutorials about how to use the built-in utility.
<ThorstenSick> Sorry, there was a mis-understanding. The problems I was talking about are not bugs
<imbrandon> even when there are simple gui's, i'm sure you could find a tutoral about changing the desktop walpaper for your fav OS too
<Chipzz> mpt: 23:01 < Chipzz> (yes I'm aware that there is a package being developed to make it easier to configure)
<Chipzz> mpt: ;)
<ThorstenSick> They are these small tutorials, tips, fixes
<Chipzz> mpt: I just failed to come up with a better example; feel free to give a better example if you come up with one ;)
<imbrandon> brb
<Chipzz> because I'm sure there are
<mpt> Chipzz, I think that solution generalizes to all examples, except in the areas of learning to program or sysadmin (for which I'd recommend learning from a trustworthy book rather than a random Web site).
<Chipzz> mpt: slightly different category, but... how about legally encumbered features?
<Chipzz> for example, encoding .3gp files with ffmpeg IIRC. people will have to compile their own versions because we can't ship it
<Chipzz> mpt: and while you're right that the "meta-fix" to such problems is creating configuration utilities, the problem with that fix is you need manpower
<mpt> Chipzz, I'd propose that trusted tutorials use apt: to link to proprietary software in the partners repository to do those functions.
<lool> crimsun: Committed patch for GNOME #494667 in SVN; will be part of next upload
<ubotu> Gnome bug 494667 in gdk-pixbuf "gdkpixloader jpeg loader problems with some files" [Critical,Resolved: fixed] http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=494667
<lool> crimsun: Thanks!
<crimsun> lool: thank /you/ !
<Chipzz> mpt: that may be a problem an sich too; take for example the example of linking to w32codecs packages on the ubuntu wiki
<mpt> Chipzz, it's getting outside Ubuntu's ambit to make copyright/patent infringement a secure thing to do :-)
<Chipzz> anyway
 * Chipzz afk again :)
<mpt> And time for me to go home
<ThorstenSick> Thanks and CU
<ThorstenSick> I think the best option is to write a proof of concept.
<mpt> ThorstenSick, I suggest you pick one problem you want to solve, figure out a good graphical way of solving it, and do what you can to develop that solution and get it into Ubuntu Main
<mpt> Then go on to another
<mpt> I think that will be more effective in the long run than implementing a Workaround Installation System.
<ThorstenSick> Thanks. I will check for alternatives to solve the problem.
<ThorstenSick> Good night
<Riddell> imbrandon: tonio was working on apturl as part of kio-apt, see his blog
#ubuntu-devel 2008-12-22
<alex_21> Does that get burned onto the disk?
<directhex> yes, or it can be read from other media (e.g. network)
<alex_21> Oh, Ok, I just want to read it from the CD
<alex_21> Is there a howto for this?
<directhex> use the kernel parameter preseed/file=/path/to/preseed - usually you'd modify isolinux.cfg to make that change the default
<directhex> start off on http://wiki.debian.org/DebianCustomCD - everything should apply equally to ubuntu
<alex_21> Oh, Ok, thanks
<alex_21> But the preceed file?
<directhex> will be linked from somewhere on there
<alex_21> Oh, thanks for all your help
<alex_21> Good day. Shaw bash
<ebroder> http://letmegooglethatforyou.com/?q=preseed%20file :)
<ebroder> Oh, too late, I guess
<NCommander> ScottK, care to take a look at https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/hardy-backports/+bug/309568?
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 309568 in intrepid-backports "Please backport Swfdec 0.8.2 from Jaunty to Intrepid & Hardy" [Undecided,New]
<ScottK> No.
<ScottK> Heading out to buy packing tape for Christmas shipments that must go out tomorrow.
<NCommander> ah
<nixternal> ScottK: stay away from UPS overnight, $$$$$...I shipped out today from UPS on the Santa Express...will get to your neck of the woods on xmas eve, and it only cost $30 total
<nixternal> overnight morning delivery they wanted $100
<khaeru> Yoohoo
<khaeru> I'm trying to help with https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SavingTheWorld
<khaeru> Can anyone tell me which version of gdm is likely to be in jaunty?
<khaeru> Here I see 2.20: http://packages.ubuntu.com/jaunty/gdm but there seems to be 2.25 in GNOME
<pwnguin> RAOF: is nouveau in a workable state in jaunty, or is there some magic i need to invoke?
<slangasek> according to the alpha2 notes, the kernel support isn't in place yet?
<pwnguin> psh
<pwnguin> who reads alpha notes
<pwnguin> real men install before the notes were written ;)
<RAOF> pwnguin: You need to review nouveau-kernel-source on revu, then upload it :P
<pwnguin> RAOF: so it's sitting on a copyright review?
<RAOF> pwnguin: Yeah, and general packaging.
<RAOF> pwnguin: Feel free to review, if you'd like some nouveau action :)
<doko_> lool: the djvulibre build failure looks like a linker problem. I know about it ...
<dholbach> good morning
<Chipzz> what's good about mornings? :P
<Chipzz> ;)
<StevenK> If mornings really exist, why are there only 12 hours on a clock
<Chipzz> Keybuk: reping in case you missed my ping this weekend :)
<Chipzz> StevenK: I always deny mornings exist ;)
<Chipzz> they're a big conspiracy! :)P
<yao_ziyuan> seamonkey composer is probably the best WYSIWYG html editing solution under linux.
<yao_ziyuan> after "sudo apt-get install seamonkey",
<yao_ziyuan> ubuntu only installs a "SeaMonkey" launcher in the Internet category.
<yao_ziyuan> that's not enough.
<yao_ziyuan> i hope it also install a "SeaMonkey Composer" launcher whose command line is: seamonkey -edit.
<Hobbsee> yay, more drive bys.
 * Hobbsee wonders about a bug report for that
<Keybuk> Chipzz: morning
<Mithrandir> soren: qemu/kvm USB passthrough seems broken on hardy for me; it says 'usb_linux_update_endp_table: Connection timed out' immediately after I do usb_add host:1.2 in the qemu/kvm console.  Is this known?  Is there a workaround?
<shani^work> Hello.
<shani^work> I want to ask is ubuntu support graphic/video card ( 3dlab's WildCat III 6210) ? if yes , then it donot installed the drivers of it m the screen i can see right now is 3/4 of my computer , and the resolution is 800x600 , unfortunately there is no relevent thread available of forums on on google search as well , BUT , www.3dlabs.com do offer my video/graphic card driver for redhat/novel/suse distributions , Can any one help me
<Keybuk> shani^work: try #ubuntu
<Chipzz> Keybuk: goodmorning :)
<lool> infinity: Hmm are you aware of http://launchpadlibrarian.net/20629978/buildlog_ubuntu-jaunty-armel.debian-installer_20081029ubuntu5_CHROOTWAIT.txt.gz ?
<lool> Unpacking chroot for build 815466-1906338
<lool> tar: This does not look like a tar archive
<directhex> armel chroot is buggered, i've had two reoprts today
<lool> directhex: ah
<directhex> lool, i don't know who's in charge of debuggerification though
<wgrant> infinity. But he's on leave.
<directhex> and what's the contingency plan?
<lool> directhex: I poked Canonical IS (buildd sysadmins)
<apw> cjwatson, i am wondering if it is possible to see if a package was uploaded
<cjwatson> apw: not sure what you mean
<cjwatson> apw: or, er, can you be more precise please?
<apw> specificially the module-init-tools in jaunty, rtg says he has uploaded an ubuntu18 but its not visible
<apw> (sorry got distracted, offered some coffee)
<apw> now when he did it before it wasn't there 'for some time' so i am interested in understanding where the limbo is before it appears, and whether its visible anywhere
<cjwatson> it'd show up at https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/module-init-tools if the upload was successful
<cjwatson> modulo a delay of up to five minutes until a cron job runs
<cjwatson> it will take "some time" to show up in the archive proper, but it will be visible in LP before that
<apw> and its not there, and its been a couple of days, but thinking about it he may have uploaded it agaist intrepid-proposed
<cjwatson> the "some time" delay is because the archive proper is managed by a script that runs hourly and takes nearly an hour to run
<apw> presumably that needs to be approved before it appears?
<Keybuk> where was the upload to?
<Keybuk> jaunty?
<Keybuk> if so they're auto-approved
<apw> thinking about it intrepid-proposed is most likely
<apw> as the last one was pocket copied to jaunty after the fact
<apw> is there a queue of unapproved things somewhere?
<cjwatson> https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/intrepid/+queue lets you inspect unapproved stuff in intrepid
 * apw adds that info to the juju list
<cjwatson> elect unapproved from the drop-down
<cjwatson> +s
<apw> ahhh there it is, thanks, so it was uploaded but its in there
<cjwatson> also StableReleaseUpdates is quite clear that most things should go to the development release *first*
<apw> unapproved i assume means 'waiting for approval' not rejected
<cjwatson> that is correct
<apw> cjwatson, yeah, i am not quite sure why rtg has been doing this package that way
<apw> it got copied to jaunty by someone else last time
<cjwatson> I realise that the kernel itself is not done this way but that's a special case
<apw> the main reason is i now want to fix it again and can't get the source back through apt-get source
<cjwatson> there was a period when jaunty wasn't open so things had to be done that way, but that's no longer the case. rtg should stop doing this
<apw> so was looking to see where it was gone
<apw> cjwatson, ahh, ok, it is hard for us sometimes as we work outside normal process so much
<apw> so in the normal process it would be uploaded to jaunty, fine
<cjwatson> (that said I haven't looked at this change)
<cjwatson> I think you can download the files from +queue
<apw> then when its proposed for intrepid, is that a new upload or is that a copy back?
<cjwatson> new upload
 * apw attempts to learn
<apw> ok ...
<apw> cool.  i think i can get what _i_ need out of this queue
<cjwatson> it's slightly more work (although only trivially so), but the reason for this is that it's usually much easier to shake out problems in the development release, and the strictures on doing work there are much weaker
<apw> and i will get rtg to sort out uploading it to jaunty, its too easy to get out of sync
<cjwatson> besides as soon as intrepid and jaunty's versions differ you have to do this anyway
<cjwatson> well, if this is to go into intrepid-proposed then we might as well copy it to jaunty as before. I'm just saying that rtg shouldn't do this in future
<apw> though as a counterpoint, encouraging him to upload it to jaunty will help cement that as the right approach
<apw> cjwatson, thanks for the info
<lool> directhex: builder was taken out of the pool for now, until someone can check what's wrong
<directhex> lool, will failed builds happen again automatically, or is a no-change reupload needed?
<lool> directhex: You can hit retry to give them back, and eventually they'll be given back when we give back all failed packages (this happens from time to time)
<lool> s/and/or
<lool> No need for a sourceful upload I think
<lool> directhex: Perhaps we can give back all "Chroot problem" failed builds right now
<apw> cjwatson, if one makes a change to a package like m-i-t for jaunty and the change is not required for intrepid its not going to get uploaded there, if later a change which is needed makes an upload to intrepid then the inbetween change is likely to get carried too.  in this case it is a benign and safe change, is there somewhere one normally documents that sort of information for 'later' when the change is being considered?
<doko_> lool: the djvulibre build failure is due to a very old libtool (2001)
<doko_> lool: the shared library is linked with -nostdlib, but without -lgcc
<lool> doko_: No, I tried with the current one and it fails as well
<lool> doko_: With the new one, -nostdlib isn't on the command line and -lgcc_s is
<lool> doko_: However the shared gcc_s.so doesn't have these symbols, and the .a as them as .hidden
<doko_> lool: linking the *shared lib* with -lgcc resolves this issue
<doko_> but then I get:
<doko_> g++ -o .libs/bzz -DHAVE_CONFIG_H -I.. -I.. -I../libdjvu -I. -DNDEBUG -Wall -O3 -Wno-non-virtual-dtor -pthread -DTHREADMODEL=POSIXTHREADS bzz.o -Wl,-Bsymbolic-functions  ../libdjvu/.libs/libdjvulibre.so -lm
<doko_> ../libdjvu/.libs/libdjvulibre.so: undefined reference to `__aeabi_atexit@CXXABI_ARM_1.3.3'
<doko_> collect2: ld returned 1 exit status
<doko_> make[1]: *** [bzz] Error 1
<lool> doko_: I tried a cvs checkout of djvulibre with jaunty's libtool, and it didn't work; it could be a libtool issue though
<lool> doko_: I don't get that far
<doko_> lool: try to add -lgcc to libdjvu/Makefile.in (LIBS)
<lool> doko_: Ok, I suspect your undefined reference is due to -undefined
<lool> -no-undefined rather
<doko_> __aeabi_atexit is defined in libstdc++
<lool> doko_: Aha, then there's a missing link to that perhaps?
<lool> Would be surprizing that this is needed
<doko_> ahh, no in libsupc++
<lool> Ok, so missing -l
<lool> doko_: Now is it a libtool issue to include -lgcc, or is it the job of upstream using atomic extensions?
<doko_> ok, this works for now
<lool> Hmm this is some internal gcc lib
<lool> directhex: The chrootwait failed builds were requeued
<doko_> lool: not sure why I do see this on armel only
<cjwatson> apw: there's no such thing as a benign and safe change for stable releases; updates to stable releases must be necessary changes only
<lool> doko_: I suspect the i386 implementation doesn't need kernel side help
<cjwatson> apw: StableReleaseUpdates has some stuff near the top about why
<lool> doko_: So no special library, but simply i386 instructions
<lool> Says cmpxchg or something
<lool> s/Says/say
<apw> cjwatson, it would be normal practice to build a branched version with out the intermediate change
<cjwatson> apw: that's right
<apw> ok ta
<Keybuk> with bzr build-deb, is there a way to specify a custom -i ?
<cjwatson> --builder='dpkg-buildpackage -rfakeroot -uc -us -S -i...'?
<cjwatson> or set source-builder in the configuration file, probably better
<doko_> lool: libdjvu/atomic.* is hard coded per architecture
<Keybuk> cjwatson: can it have per-package source-builder ?
<cjwatson> you can have a per-package configuration file
<cjwatson> .bzr-builddeb/local.conf
<cjwatson> see /usr/share/doc/bzr-builddeb/README.gz
<Keybuk> thx
<cjwatson> or perhaps .bzr-builddeb/default.conf depending on whether you want it to be overridden by user configuration
<Keybuk> hmm, didn't wokr
<Keybuk> Building the package in ../build-area/udev-135, using dpkg-buildpackage -rfakeroot -uc -us -S
<Keybuk> quest ubuntu% cat .bzr-builddeb/default.conf
<Keybuk> [BUILDDEB]
<Keybuk> source-builder = dpkg-buildpackage -rfakeroot -uc -us -i'(?:/|^)test(?:/|$)'
<cjwatson> ... at this point you need james_w :)
<cjwatson> try local.conf instead, it's higher-priority
<cjwatson> and surely source-builder needs -S
<Keybuk> err, right
<Keybuk> local.conf worked
 * Keybuk is still said you can't put -i in debian/control somewhere :p
<cjwatson> mm, yeah
<Keybuk> since if anyone checks out this udev branch, and tries to build it
<Keybuk> dpkg-source will simply spazz out
<lool> doko_: So apart of relibtoolizing, do we need to change djvulibre or the toolchain or both?
<doko_> lool: I uploaded a patch just adding the two libs in djvulibre
<lool> doko_: No relibtoolizing?
<doko_> I don't think it's needed
<cjwatson> Keybuk: I think the idea of .bzr-builddeb/local.conf is that you can commit it to the branch so that stuff works as long as the other person is using bzr bd
<Keybuk> I thought that was what default.conf was for?
<cjwatson> the local in local.conf just means that it overrides ~/.bazaar/builddeb.conf
<cjwatson> i.e. package-local - I don't think it means that it's supposed to be local to your system
<cjwatson> although I might be corrected by somebody who knows bzr-builddeb better :)
<apw> where might i find the sync status page, for packages synced from debian during jaunty
<Keybuk> we don't really have such a thing?
<apw> when we 'sank' would have that been against experimental?
<Keybuk> no, from unstable generally
<apw> thats probabally what i meant
<apw> is there an easy way to find out which version of something is in debian unstable
<Keybuk> packages.debian.org
<apw> thanks
<cjwatson> (or https://launchpad.net/debian)
<cjwatson> reliant on the LP import continuing to work of course :)
<Keybuk> cjwatson: it's a shame the /ubuntu/ doesn't link to that ;)
<Keybuk> though this all reminds me
<cjwatson> I think it'll be able to once we're doing "native" syncs from Debian
 * Keybuk does an autosync
<cjwatson> i.e. just copying the publishing records across from /debian to /ubuntu
<cjwatson> there are a couple of bugs left to fix first though
<cjwatson> ooh, firefox-3.1's location bar shows you the expansion of keyword bookmarks as you type
<cjwatson> that's actually quite cool
<lool> cjwatson: Heh I requested this feature pre 3.0, the patch had been proposed by someone way before 3.0 but it took so long to reach a release!
<lool> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=392143
<ubottu> Mozilla bug 392143 in Location Bar and Autocomplete "show keywords as url bar autocomplete choices" [Enhancement,Verified: fixed]
<Riddell> cjwatson: does it make sense for me to get rid of the seed files that kubuntu doesn't need?  *-server and virt-host?
<cjwatson> Riddell: probably, yes
<cjwatson> Riddell: as long as you don't try to merge from ubuntu
<cjwatson> Riddell: (if you do, you'll get conflicts; you shouldn't really need to merge from ubuntu any more anyway)
<Keybuk> cjwatson: does the installer do anything with the fuse group?
<cjwatson> Keybuk: it used to, but not as of intrepid
<cjwatson> see user-setup 1.20ubuntu7 changelog
<Keybuk> why did we stop?
<Keybuk> dynamic ACL stuff?
<Keybuk> hmm
<Keybuk> upstream udev just sets fuse to 0666 :p
<cjwatson> dynamic ACL apparently, yes
<doko_> lool: djvulibre built on armel
<lool> Cool
<oliver_g_> hello
<oliver_g_> I want to make a patch for a source package (with cdbs-edit-patch); and was wondering: should the patch include the changes to the changelog file?
<oliver_g_> or should a patch only contain the actual code changes?
<directhex> the patch should nopt include changelog stuff
<directhex> basically, use a patch for anything outside appname-1.0/debian/
<directhex> changelog is in debian/, so no patch
<Laney> I think he means upstream changelog
<Laney> (no, don't bother)
<directhex> oh, that too
<oliver_g_> ok, thanks
<directhex> morning' iain
<persia> oliver_g_, The patch created with cdbs-edit-patch should change things only outside the debian/ directory.  Including the changelog entries in a submitted patch is welcome.  You'd likely find #ubuntu-motu a better channel for these questions.
<Laney> 'ow do?
<directhex> work is pointless today. i'm just playing civ4
<Laney> not started your hols yet?
<directhex> nah
<oliver_g_> persia: ok, thanks for the #ubuntu-motu hint
<mcasadevall> Will a buildd admin please rescore python-qt4 on armel (I'm not sure if my previous message went through)
<doko_> why is boost1.37 not yet built, or is not yet processed? NEW package in Debian
<cjwatson> doko_: syncing of new packages is manual and sporadic. I've synced it now
<doko_> cjwatson: thanks, will other packages be processed as well before our merge window closes?
<cjwatson> doko_: yes - there are only 55. In any case the merge window does not "close" on 25 December; that's just when every package should have been merged at least once. You can quite happily merge stuff after that
<cjwatson> doko_: all processed now
<liw> cjwatson, in re the system-cleaner upload: my usual suspects (mvo, james_w) are on holiday, could you upload the new package and if so, do you prefer to do it from bzr (I've pushed the changelog change), or shall I upload a .dsc to my ppa?
<cjwatson> bzr is fine
<cjwatson> url?
<liw> cjwatson, bzr+ssh://bazaar.launchpad.net/~systemcleaner-hackers/systemcleaner/trunk.deb-packaging/
<liw> I need to tweak things in LP to make lp:system-cleaner work, I guess
<beuno> liw, hi! You need to tell LP that you're using code, in the "Change Details" link. Then, under the code tab, it will prompt you to specify a development focus.
<beuno> that's when the lp:projectname magic works  :)
<liw> beuno, there's a separate packaging branch; can I make lp:foo/trunk and lp:foo/trunk.deb-packaging both work? (I think I've seen other projects do tha)
<cjwatson> liw: there's already a 1.10.4-0ubuntu2 in intrepid-proposed - you can't reuse that version number
<liw> cjwatson, er, oops.
<cjwatson> liw: looks like maybe you forgot to merge that into trunk.deb-packaging?
<beuno> liw, I *think* that only works if it's linked to a series.
<liw> cjwatson, yeah, I'll need to fix that, hang on
<liw> cjwatson, ok, that took a while, I had to hunt down the right branch and do a phone call, but I've pushed the branch again, if you want to try again
<liw> cjwatson, in other words, I merged the SRU changes
<Keybuk> cjwatson: what do you know about /dev/net/tun ?
<cjwatson> liw: thanks, uploaded
<liw> cjwatson, thank you
<cjwatson> Keybuk: at what level? I remember it showing up hardcoded in a number of places (wasn't it in links.conf?) and I know approximately what it's used for
<Keybuk> can you see any reason it shouldn't be world-writable?
<cjwatson> Keybuk: Documentation/networking/tuntap.txt says it's ok
<cjwatson>   Set permissions:
<cjwatson>      e.g. chmod 0666 /dev/net/tun
<cjwatson>      There's no harm in allowing the device to be accessible by non-root users,
<cjwatson>      since CAP_NET_ADMIN is required for creating network devices or for
<cjwatson>      connecting to network devices which aren't owned by the user in question.
<cjwatson>      If you want to create persistent devices and give ownership of them to
<cjwatson>      unprivileged users, then you need the /dev/net/tun device to be usable by
<cjwatson>      those users.
<Keybuk> sounds fair
<cjwatson> liw: oh BTW the changelog entry for system-cleaner wasn't quite accurate - Soyuz didn't remove all Architecture: all packages, only those where an upload was copied from a post-release pocket in an earlier release (e.g. intrepid-proposed -> jaunty)
<liw> cjwatson, oh, ok, then I misunderstood
<liw> robbiew, about the https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/package-license-tracking blueprint: should it be assigned to someone?
<robbiew> it should indeed
<robbiew> liw: are you volunteering? :P
<wasabi> trying to find a bug i commented on friday... i didn't subscribe. anyway to view my own history of comments?
<liw> robbiew, well, no :) most of the effort is going to be in the discussions with Debian to finish the spec for the format, and Steve was going to do that
<wasabi> oh there we are. commented bugs.
<liw> robbiew, but if I'm writing the library, I'll happily co-author the Ubuntu spec with Steve
<wasabi> Okay. I have run into #295859. Does anybody think my two comments near the end accurately describe the problem?
<wasabi> bug #295859
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 295859 in update-manager "Upgrade Manager crashes during upgrade from Kubuntu Hardy to Intrepid" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/295859
<ion_> benc: According to the last comment in bug #278188, irda has been fixed in 2.6.28 rc9. Would it be possible to get the fix backported into intrepid?
<robbiew> liw: ok, thnx
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 278188 in linux "irda broken on Thinkpad T23 with 2.6.27-4-generic, works with 2.6.24-16-generic" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/278188
 * robbiew assigns to Steve
<robbiew> liw: ^
<BenC> ion_: file a bug report with a patch and let smb know
<liw> robbiew, ack
<ion_> benc: smb?
<BenC> ion_: stefan bader, he handles the stable releases
<ion_> benc: Alright, thanks
<Keybuk> I swear that the Mini 9 keyboard was made especially to punish me
<robbiew> Keybuk: too small?
<Spads> robbiew: too big!
<robbiew> heh
<Spads> robbiew: also it kept coming up without a / key so he needed to run KEYBUK.EXE
<lamont> how do I tell network mangler to leave the ethernet connection _UP_ and _ALONE_, while still letting it mangle the wireless?
<Keybuk> lamont: in intrepid?  doesn't it do that by default?
<ScottK> By using the RF kill switch when you don't want it to switch to wireless.
<Keybuk> robbiew: small, cheap, crappy
<lamont> Keybuk: intrepid.  something keeps downing the interface
<Keybuk> Spads: keybuk.com!  get it right! :p
<robbiew> dude, you got a dell
<robbiew> lol
<Keybuk> lamont: probably postfix
<Spads> Keybuk: yeah I figrued it was a COM after I hit enter
<lamont> ScottK: no no.  I have the wireless up and running for upstream bandwdith, and am using the ethernet for some local downstream hackery (configuring a couple of devices over the wire) - and I want it to leave my downstream intreface the hell alone
<ScottK> Ah.  Dunno about that.
<lamont> afk
<Laney> persia: Can I do the lash merge?
<Laney> persia: Oh wait, you did
<robbiew> cjwatson: so should you be the assignee for the archive reorganisation?
<azeem> 7W 31
<azeem> sorry
<robbiew> cjwatson: For reference:  http://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/archive-reorganization
<cjwatson> robbiew: I guess so
<robbiew> cjwatson: such enthusiasm! :P
<cjwatson> :-) just haven't seen the output of the UDS session yet
<cjwatson> but yes, I think it ought to be me at least for coordination purposes (even though the implementation work needs to be in several places)
<robbiew> right
<robbiew> well...the videos are there for your enjoyment
<robbiew> heh
<robbiew> cjwatson: hmm...I guess having the same person as assignee and approver is problematic from a checks-and-balances point of view
<cjwatson> robbiew: I agree
 * robbiew assigns himself as approver
<lool> directhex: Broken armel chroot was repaired and this buildd is back in the pool
<rickspencer3> tseliot: I'm reading your specs right now :)
<tseliot> rickspencer3: thanks
<bbs> Template #1 in /var/lib/dpkg/tmp.ci/templates has a duplicate field "template" with newvalue "dexrex/ToS-accepted". Probably two templates are not properly separated by a lone newline.
<bbs> i don't get this?
<bbs> i have it set up like the parallels templates
<bbs> from the partner pool
<cjwatson> bbs: can you put the full dexrex templates file somewhere I can see it?
<bbs> cjwatson: sure
<bbs> thx
<bbs> second
<bbs> http://dpaste.com/101758/
<bbs> http://dpaste.com/101759/
<bbs> ^^ preinst file
<cjwatson> don't care about preinst
<cjwatson> bbs: I suspect that the line just before "Template: dexrex/ToS-accepted" is not really empty. Maybe it has one space in it?
<cjwatson> it's hard to tell for sure from a pastebin, as the process of pasting into a pastebin sometimes hides this kind of thing
<cjwatson> you might be able to turn on special characters or something in your editor to see for sure
<bbs> lol
<bbs> :)
<bbs> thats funny
<bbs> i'll take a peek
<bbs> i mean it just keeps yelling atm
<bbs> cjwatson: whats the easiest way to do a single binary install
<bbs> using an "install"
<bbs> file
<bbs> with CDBS
<bbs> or what?
<cjwatson> please don't use the Enter key as punctuation
<cjwatson> perhaps try reading something like https://wiki.ubuntu.com/PackagingGuide ?
<bbs> i did
<cjwatson> debian/*.install (or debian/install) files are a feature of debhelper rather than of CDBS as such, although CDBS does use debhelper
<cjwatson> read 'man dh_install'
<bbs> that Guide is not sufficient and does not contain barely anything about binary files
<cjwatson> why is it important what the files contain?
<bbs> ok i will take a look
<cjwatson> all that debian/rules and the things it calls needs to worry about is putting the files in the right place, basically!
<bbs> yes, exactly :)
<cjwatson> whether they're text files or binary files normally doesn't matter
<cjwatson> anyway, for mentoring on packaging creation, please use #ubuntu-motu
<bbs> cjwatson: i've tried there -- its a wasteland in there for a few hours now
<bbs> thanks for your time..
<cjwatson> Riddell: I thought I'd recommended that you stop merging the Kubuntu seeds from Ubuntu - isn't it just creating confusion? (such as the recent CD build failure)
<cjwatson> Riddell: (if it's really useful, then I guess ...)
<cjwatson> Riddell: (I've fixed the seed bug causing that CD build failure)
<cody-somerville> Would people prefer the default host for dput to be local or something bogus to help prevent accidentally uploads to Ubuntu or would people prefer that it remain Ubuntu?
<ion_> Having to specify Ubuntu when uploading to it shouldnât be too hard.
 * cody-somerville nods.
<lubosz> hi
<pochu> cody-somerville: I always change it to something bogus
<cody-somerville> ion_, thats my thinking as well
<lubosz> whats the deal about kenrel -11
<cody-somerville> pochu, me too
<lubosz> it broke laptop stuff for me
<cody-somerville> okay, sounds good.
<lubosz> suspend does not work anymore
<lubosz> and it starts with the lowest screen brightness Oo
<lubosz> Dec 22 23:47:23 burning-studio kernel: [   19.049472] asus-laptop: Brightness ignored, must be controlled by ACPI video driver
<cjwatson> cody-somerville: it's not like you can accidentally *successfully* upload to Ubuntu unless you're an Ubuntu developer and the top line in debian/changelog lists an Ubuntu suite. I don't see the dput default as a problem
<cjwatson> cody-somerville: I'm not sure I ever recall an "argh, I accidentally uploaded this to Ubuntu" incident
<cody-somerville> cjwatson, I hear it from MOTUs all the time ;]
<ebroder> Sounds like that could be pretty easy if you use dch
 * directhex uploads cody-somerville to experimental
<cody-somerville> : O
<directhex> take THAT!
<cody-somerville> If any core-devs would like to sponsor, see bug #310754 :)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 310754 in dput "Merge dput 0.9.2.36 from debian unstable (main)" [Low,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/310754
<cjwatson> cody-somerville: none of them seem to come to the archive admins saying "could you please reject this?"
<cody-somerville> cjwatson, Sure
<cody-somerville> cjwatson, If you'd like, you're welcome to sponsor my upload and revert that change if you'd like. I don't feel strongly about it.
<cody-somerville> I just know for myself, I do set it to something bogus because I *would* be coming to ask
<cjwatson> at this time of night I think somebody else can do it :)
<cody-somerville> ;]
<cody-somerville> Alrighty. I'm going to go enjoy some dinner. bbiab
<cody-somerville> cjwatson, btw, do you know anything about valgrind?
 * directhex wonders if an archive admin can find time in between eating mince pies & rockin' around the christmas tree to do a couple of syncs
<cody-somerville> cjwatson, it won't compile on Jaunty due to depending on glibc version no higher than 2.7 (and we have 2.8)
<cody-somerville> cjwatson, although the NEWS file seems to suggest that support for 2.8 was added
<cody-somerville> cjwatson, so I'm wondering if its safe to modify the configure.in file to allow it to compile with 2.8
<cjwatson> cody-somerville: not at that level - if you're wondering if it's safe, I'd suggest mailing upstream
 * cody-somerville nods.
<cody-somerville> cjwatson, Thanks. Will do.
 * cody-somerville is off for now. bbiab (for real now) :)
<Hobbsee> cody-somerville: how much of that hsould be sent to debian?
 * Hobbsee notes that it's going to annoy people when what htey were using before (ie, dput foo.changes) doesn't work anymore
 * Hobbsee notes that various people who are paranoid already go and change it themselves, as they're not so confident
#ubuntu-devel 2008-12-23
<ScottK> cjwatson: I've done it (accidentallly uploaded to Ubuntu).  It was a package I meant for a PPA.
<ScottK> And yes, I did change mine after that to require me to specify ubuntu as an upload target.
<cjwatson> ScottK: fair enough. Of course it's a bug that PPAs use the same upload target scheme as Ubuntu.
<cody-somerville> cjwatson, no it isn't
<cody-somerville> cjwatson, may be undesirable but I wouldn't call it a bug
<cody-somerville> cjwatson, It is possible for other distributions to have PPAs
<persia> cody-somerville, Traditionally, responsible third-party repositories selected different series names for releases, to better identify the appropriate place for any given upload, as reflected in the changelog.
<persia> To me, it would make more sense, assuming the bug was fixed, to do something where dput would upload to the location identified by the target in debian/changelog except when overridden.
<cody-somerville> I disagree
<persia> Unfortunately, with the current state of PPAs, this means an override is required for each PPA upload, which doesn't solve your use case.
<persia> Why?
<cody-somerville> persia, I think you'd find it logical for different repositories that are providing additional packages to have the same corresponding name for the targetted distroseries.
<persia> Not at all, because I would expect the builds to differ because there are different packages therein.
<cody-somerville> persia, so you expect end users to go hunting down all the third party repositories to find out what the new codename is for the new distroseries every six months?
<persia> Doesn't affect end-users at all, and yes, I expect developers working on multiple projects to keep track of changes to upload targets in those projects to which they contribute.
<cody-somerville> Hobbsee, I've already filed a bug and sent Debian an e-mail
<cody-somerville> persia, how does it not affect end-users?
<Hobbsee> cody-somerville: cool.  just checking :)
<persia> cody-somerville, Because end-users only need the URL of the repos they want: they don't care how it got there.
<cody-somerville> persia, not true. You also need to know the distroseries name
<persia> Further, differentiation by targets in the changelog is beneficial to end-users, because they can see points of differentiation in derivative repos.
<cody-somerville> I agree with that point
<persia> cody-somerville, Right.  You need a string, which includes a URL and a name.  And yes, I do expect users of multiple repositories to track them: otherwise we get back into the troubles we saw when there was a wealth of advertised third-party repos about 5 years ago.
<cjwatson> cody-somerville: I'm not sure how my statement conflicts with the possibility of other distributions having PPAs
<cody-somerville> persia, so, what would you suggest for distroseries names for PPAs?
<cody-somerville> cody-somerville-hardy, cody-somerville-intrepid?
<ScottK-desktop> Even if it was jaunty-ppa it'd be fine.
<cjwatson> cody-somerville: it's a bug because you can take a signed upload that somebody had intended for a PPA, and subvert their intent by uploading to Ubuntu
<cody-somerville> ScottK-desktop, but then all the PPAs are the same
<persia> I'd prefer something like jaunty-ppa
<cjwatson> cody-somerville: without having to re-sign
<ScottK-desktop> cody-somerville: Fine with me.  They aren't the same distro as Ubuntu.
<persia> cody-somerville, I don't care about differentiation between PPAs.  I know that's being small-minded, but it's true.
<cjwatson> cody-somerville: the thing that goes at the top of debian/changelog has absolutely zip to do with what end users have to know about.
<ScottK-desktop> +1
<persia> cjwatson, There's a workaround blocker for that, but it was true for a year or so.
<cody-somerville> If we don't care about that then I'd strongly be in favour of changing it as well to have another pocket for PPA uploads
<cjwatson> persia: right, but people might well still publish the signed object somewhere without realising the problem
<cjwatson> e.g. for review
<persia> Ah.  That would indeed be dangerous.
<cody-somerville> right... how *do* we prevent a third-party someone taking a package in a PPA of a developer and reuploading it to Ubuntu?
<cjwatson> by making the thing at the top of debian/changelog different, as I said a page back
<cjwatson> i.e. the upload target
<cody-somerville> right, but its currently the same for PPA and Ubuntu, no?
<persia> cody-somerville, Which is the bug.
<cjwatson> as I've been saying
<cody-somerville> Scary.
<cody-somerville> Hobbsee, so I'll change it back to Ubuntu
 * ScottK-desktop comes back to the conversation and turns around in a circle.
<cody-somerville> ScottK-desktop, or would ScottK-desktop like to sponsor? :)
 * ScottK-desktop is desparately trying to get some $WORK done before leaving town for Christmas vacation
<ScottK-desktop> so no.
<Hobbsee> cody-somerville: oh good :)
<cody-somerville> Hobbsee, I don't think upstream is going to take the sftp transport patch because it introduces a dependency on bzr :P
<cody-somerville> (or recommends, sorry)
<Hobbsee> cody-somerville: that's a point.  Although they might for the sake of compatibility, but bump bzr to suggests ;)
<persia> Why does sftp require bzr?
<cody-somerville> persia, because I use the bzrlib.transport module
<cody-somerville> Hobbsee, It is a suggests, sorry
<Hobbsee> oh.
<Hobbsee> on that basis, they probably would.
<Hobbsee> bzr's in debian
<cody-somerville> Hobbsee, maybe they just haven't gotten around to it. I know they took one of my other fixes in my last upload.
<Hobbsee> i saw that
<avb> bzrlib.transport
<avb> why not usual openssl?
<cody-somerville> avb, if you'd like to rewrite it to use openssl directly, be my guest.
 * cody-somerville will be back later.
<mrooney> bryce: around?
<mrooney> bryce: I've added a workaround section to the description of bug 284408, if you could enhance or fix it in any way I would appreciate it, I'm not sure if everyone should be installing -ati or what.
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 284408 in fglrx-installer "r3xx Hardware does not work with fglrx [EPR#257839]" [Undecided,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/284408
<bryce> mrooney: thanks, yes that looks good (on quick glance)
<bryce> mrooney: and yes, people with problems using -fglrx should switch to -ati.  -ati is a pretty decent driver nowadays
<mrooney> bryce: okay, thanks, and those purges are all good?
<bryce> mrooney: -radeonhd is another open source option people have, although we don't give it as much attention in ubuntu as -ati
<bryce> mrooney: well, -radeon is just an alias for -ati so I'm not sure if that's required, but it doesn't hurt
<bryce> mrooney: also I'm not certain if they'd need to purge/reinstall mesa
<bryce> fglrx has some glx bits that overwrite the corresponding files that -ati uses.  Not sure whether that would get automatically cleaned up or not
<mrooney> yeah I think that's why -ati is purged and then installed, although a reinstall might suffice
<gnomefreak> bryce: are you working on X in Jaunty?
<mrooney> bryce: okay, well thanks for your help! I figured once people started posting comments to remove your video card someone had better post a formal workaround and stop all the confusion
<bryce> gnomefreak: hmm?
<bryce> mrooney: heh, very true!
<bryce> mrooney: it's much appreciated; I'm probably going to be scaling back the amount of attention I give to -fglrx bugs going forward, with the hope that community folks like yourself can assist other users with questions and so on
<mrooney> bryce: yeah, -ati seems to be really shaping up! I am glad for this bug actually or I never would have found out :)
<mrooney> bryce: good night for now, it was nice meeting you at UDS
<bryce> mrooney: :-)
<mcasadevall> freeflying, ping
<NCommander> Can a buildd admin please rescore kde4bindings on armel?
<freeflying> NCommander: I'm not in charge of buildd :)
<bluesmoke> bryce: just fyi, bug 310228 should be closed as invalid as removing that patch drastically reduces performance when using a compositor
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 310228 in xorg "patch 107_fedora_dont_backfill_bg_none.patch causes video garbage in KDE 4 (dup-of: 254468)" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/310228
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 254468 in xorg-server "[KDE4] momentary video garbage upon drawing new objects" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/254468
<bluesmoke> oh, it got duped
<bluesmoke> anyway, same message
<bluesmoke> <ajax> so what gnome quite sensibly does is tells the compositor not to show the window contents until they're painted, using the same sync protocol that window resizing uses.
<bluesmoke> that's the 'fix' for GNOME to make it not show garbage, KDE needs to do something similar
<bluesmoke> oh, I guess he is in US too and won't see that for some time...
<NCommander> Can a core developer kick the retry button on opie in main for armel?
<fargiolas> how long does it take for a package that has been pushed into repositories to actually be available for install? I'm asking because lool said he pushed libv4l 0.5.7 (bug 308890) but I cannot see it yet in -proposed
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 308890 in libv4l "SRU for libv4l 0.5.7" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/308890
<NCommander> fabbione, in the case of the proposed repos, an SRU member must ACK it and an archive admin must accept it
<NCommander> It doesn't enter the proposed archive automatically
<fargiolas> NCommander: oh I though "pushed" there meant that it has been pushed in -proposed
<NCommander> Nope
<NCommander> I assume you got an email from Ubuntu Installer when your patch was sponsored?
<fargiolas> so is there any SRU member here to ACK it?
<fargiolas> NCommander: I'm not the author of the patch
<NCommander> oh
<fargiolas> NCommander: I'm a cheese developer and I already have at least 3 bugs in bugzilla caused by that
<NCommander> Oh, I see
<NCommander> Loic already did the right thing
<NCommander> Its just a matter of waiting
<fargiolas> NCommander: ok, I just wanted to sure what to say to reporters (either enable proposed or wait until it gets in proposed)
<NCommander> Once it enters proposed, the buildds will get it, and it usually will be available within a few hours of acceptence
<fargiolas> *to be
<dholbach> good morning
<NCommander> morning dholbach
<dholbach> hi NCommander
<dholbach> NCommander: just looking at the python-qt thing
<NCommander> which one :-)
<dholbach> the fixed replaces
<NCommander> ah, that one
<NCommander> dholbach, since we're on the topic, can you please retry opie on armel for me?
<NCommander> (of sponsoring stuff ;-))
<dholbach> NCommander: err?
<NCommander> dholbach, can you retry a build for me on armel?
<dholbach> NCommander: done
<NCommander> thanks
<dholbach> is there something we can do about  http://www.chipx86.com/blog/?p=276 ?
<tseliot> Riddell: I should write a patch for the randr kcm module instead of writing a new module (since I only need to add an option to restore X restart with "ctrl-alt-backspace"), right?
<cjwatson> dholbach: I've a feeling that the fix needs to be on the vmware side - it looks like basically the same kind of thing we had to fix in kvm to cope with the switch to evdev
<RainCT> stgraber: congrats :)
<dholbach> cjwatson: OK, thanks
<Riddell> tseliot: yes, if there's space for such a tickbox
<tseliot> Riddell: ok, thanks
 * directhex wonders who's bored and in an archive adminning mood
<Riddell> directhex: I'm on duty today
<directhex> Riddell, lucky you!
<directhex> Riddell, feel like waving your magic wand at bug 308497, bug 308500, bug 308498 ?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 308497 in monodevelop "Please sync monodevelop 1.0+dfsg-4 (universe) from Debian experimental (main)." [Wishlist,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/308497
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 308500 in gbrainy "Please sync gbrainy 1.00-2 (universe) from Debian experimental (main)." [Wishlist,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/308500
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 308498 in ubuntu "Please sync banshee-extension-mirage 0.4.0-3 (universe) from Debian experimental (main)." [Wishlist,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/308498
<Riddell> directhex: done
<directhex> neato. cheers
<apw> does anyone know if you can do binary uploads to PPA's
<Laney> you can't
<directhex> you can't do binary uploads full stop. PPAs are no different
<directhex> and any archive admin who corrects me on that point gets a stab ;)
<directhex> gah. yes, i've seen it. i'll stab meebey when he wakes up
<Laney> hm?
<directhex>  * Source Package: monodevelop
<directhex>  * State: Failed to build
<directhex> the same mono-cairo.pc problem that plagued slangasek's gtk# upload
<directhex> which begs the question "how was it uploaded to experimental
<Laney> did it build for exp?
<Laney> ^
<directhex> i suspect a dirty chroot
<Laney> silly binary uploads
<directhex> hence stab time!
<directhex> i can 4ubuntu1 a workaround, but i'd rather the fix go to exp & then sync
<directhex> i think it's time to move mono-cairo.pc to libmono2.0 instead of libmono1.0, don't you?
<Laney> directhex: Always test your syncs ;)
<directhex> sigh, i know, i know. i thought i had. i filed the last week
<Riddell> dholbach: do you have a magic way to mass close bugs?  e.g. bug 310888
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 310888 in kwin-style-serenity "Please remove obsolete KDE 3 styles from Jaunty" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/310888
<NCommander> dholbach, email
<NCommander> er, Riddell
<NCommander> Does anyone know what could selectively cause one button to stop registering clicks to it?
<Riddell> NCommander: nothing in my e-mail
<NCommander> Riddell, no, use email to close all the tasks
<Riddell> hmm, that means learning a whole new user interface
<NCommander> pretty much
<NCommander> There is also that LP gui that can do it
<apw> before launchpad, did ubuntu bugs reside 'elsewhere'?  i have a reference to an ubuntu bug #nnnn which is clearly not the launchpad bug and am trying to locate it
<cjwatson> yes, they were in a Bugzilla instance
<cjwatson> apw: https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/bugtrackers/ubuntu-bugzilla/<bugnumber> will redirect you to the Launchpad import of that bug
<apw> ooo arr cantana
<apw> (thanks)
<Riddell> asac: alive?  do you know why there's a new chatzilla package in New?
<cody-somerville> Can an archive admin look at bug #310821 ?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 310821 in xubuntu-meta "Please copy Xfce 4.4.3 to intrepid-proposed" [Medium,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/310821
<cody-somerville> Before I ack with my motu-sru hat on, I'd like an archive admin to ack
<Riddell> cody-somerville: you want an archive admin to ack so you can ack so an archive admin can do it?
<cody-somerville> Riddell, I want to ensure that the process can be smooth and go without a hitch
<Riddell> cody-somerville: I don't see there would be any problem
<dholbach> NCommander: no, sorry
<NCommander> dholbach, no to what?
<dholbach> NCommander: ... err Riddell: ^^ :)
<dholbach> no magic auto-closing way
<dholbach> excusez moi
<asac> Riddell: yes. its a ffox extension ... the other thing in the archive is seamonkey
<asac> Riddell: (i assume you had archive day ... did you reject bugmail extension?)
<Riddell> asac: I did reject bugmail yes
<asac> Riddell: ok did you send an explanation somewhere ;)?
<Riddell> asac: https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-archive/2008-December/023488.html
<asac> Riddell: ok i uploaded it because all but the trivial files have an explicit GPLv3 header in it
<asac> anyway upstream already said they would add it
<Riddell> it really needs the full licence text
<Riddell> for my approval anyway, other archive admins may vary
<asac> kk
<msaraujo> hi, I am getting this error when trying to compile ruby (trunk version)
<msaraujo> vsnprintf.c:1185: sorry, unimplemented: inlining failed in call to âsnprintfâ: redefined extern inline functions are not considered for inlining
<msaraujo> is there anyone here that can help?
<Adri2000> ok
<Adri2000> oops
<Q-FUNK> howdy!   is there anything missing to get xserver-xorg-video-geode 2.9.0-1ubuntu2.5 from hardy-proposed into hardy-updates?
<slangasek> the bug status doesn't reflect that it's gotten any testing at all in -proposed
<slangasek> so, yes, "testing" is missing. :)
<Q-FUNK> :)
<Q-FUNK> slangasek: ok. so where would anyone confirm that testing was conclusive and support a move to -updates?
<Q-FUNK> Ã¶Ã¶Ã¶... express support for a move to -updates?
<cjwatson> in the bug
<cjwatson> linked from http://people.ubuntu.com/~ubuntu-archive/pending-sru.html
<slangasek> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/StableReleaseUpdates#Verification
<cjwatson> oops, I copied cairo to intrepid-updates a bit early, sorry
<cjwatson> pitti: ^-
 * directhex stabs cairo
<cjwatson> only by one day though
<Q-FUNK> that would be bug #255991
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 255991 in xserver-xorg-video-geode "xf86-video-geode: DDC probing broken on GX2/CS5535 since 2.9.0 (patch)" [Undecided,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/255991
<lool> doko: Just noticed this today, but python-central moves .py to /usr/share/pyshared but these might be arch specific (/usr/share/pyshared/PyQt4/pyqtconfig.py for instance); that'd bad, why /usr/share/pyshared and not /usr/lib/pyshared?
<Riddell> cjwatson: doing New queue?
<cjwatson> finished
<cjwatson> I did a bit
<cjwatson> lool: I acked bug 309674, in case you're still around to upload that
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 309674 in pygobject "python-gobject in hardy-updates on sparc misbuilt only for python2.5" [Critical,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/309674
<directhex> aha, it was cjwatson who pulled in banshee-extension-mirage from NEW
<directhex> it's a neat plugin - it takes ages to scan your library, but you can pick a track & it'll generate playlists based in the "feel" of your chosen track. i think itunes has a similar feature
<wasabi> so i guess msn telepathy is broken in intrepid in some fashion?
<wasabi> (or is it just me?)
<Treenaks> wasabi: empathy works great for me.. waht's broken?
<wasabi> Won't connect. Network error.
<wasabi> It stopped like... a week or two ago.
<wasabi> I was thinking it was a protocol/server change that nobody kept up with.
<Treenaks> wasabi: which protocol? because gtalk, msn, aol/icq work for me
<wasabi> msn.
<wasabi> actually. i'm not sure what it is now... when i enable the account it says network error, but actually I see no packets.
<wasabi> maybe it is just me
<Treenaks> wasabi: maybe you deinstalled the package?
<wasabi> nope
<Treenaks> wasabi: firewall rules?
<wasabi> no firewall.
<cr3> what's the wiki page describing how to request an update of a package which has been renamed in main?
<cr3> bug #257746 has not seen much action in a while and might need review before DIF, should I do anything so that it doesn't fall through the cracks?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 257746 in ubuntu "[needs-packaging] checkbox" [Wishlist,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/257746
<cody-somerville> jdstrand, ping
<jdstrand> cody-somerville: pong?
<cody-somerville> jdstrand, I got another dput upload for you to sponsor :)
<jdstrand> cody-somerville: sure, np
<cody-somerville> jdstrand, https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/dput/+bug/310754
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 310754 in dput "Merge dput 0.9.2.36 from debian unstable (main)" [Low,Triaged]
<jdstrand> cody-somerville: is the changelog correct in that debdiff?
<cody-somerville> jdstrand, yup
<cody-somerville> jdstrand, re comment #6?
<jdstrand> cody-somerville: yes
<cody-somerville> yup
<jdstrand> cody-somerville: done
<cody-somerville> jdstrand, thanks
<jdstrand> cody-somerville: and fwiw, I think you made the right choice to keep default_main_host as is
<jdstrand> people will likely have opinions on that one
 * cody-somerville nods.
<slangasek> does anyone here have experience with editmoin?
<slangasek> I don't seem to be able to get it working against wiki.u.c, it consistently gives me a permission error even after configuring it
<nhandler> slangasek: I got it working
<slangasek> is there a secret I'm missing? :)
<nhandler> Did you get your MOIN_SESSION or w/e it is called?
 * nhandler is pulling up the namme
<slangasek> I grabbed the value of the "MOIN_ID" cookie under the wiki.ubuntu.com domain out of firefox, and pasted the unquoted content of the cookie into .moin_ds
<slangasek> .moin_ids, rather
<slangasek> do I need to leave the quotes in, or am I supposed to be using MOIN_SESSION instead or something?
<nhandler> So what does your .moin_ids file look like?
<slangasek> https://wiki.ubuntu.com<tab>$cookie
<slangasek> that's what I understood from the manpage, though the manpage seems to have mangled formatting
<nhandler> And how are you going about editing the wiki page (or trying to)
<slangasek> a variety of ways
<slangasek> fwiw, I just found the answer: the file is called .moin_ids, but the cookie you need is MOIN_SESSION
<slangasek> thanks :)
<nhandler> slangasek: Sorry about that. I'm not on my ubuntu machine right now.
<nhandler> Glad you got it working
<slangasek> guess the manpage needs updating, then
#ubuntu-devel 2008-12-24
<LaserJock> any compiz types around?
<bluesmoke> LaserJock: why?
<LaserJock> I'm wondering if there are any good pointers on OpenGL apps behaving badly with compiz
<LaserJock> or rather, how to correct screen artifacts in OpenGL apps
<bluesmoke> LaserJock: Redirected Direct Rendering
<bluesmoke> Unfortunately we don't actually have that yet
<LaserJock> bluesmoke: so is that a compiz thing or at the app level?
<bluesmoke> That's a driver thing
<LaserJock> ah
<racarr> Assosciated buzzwords include DRI2.
<bluesmoke> Doesn't implementing DRI2 get RDR for free?
<racarr> Yes.
<racarr> bluesmoke: ^
<racarr> It's basically the point of DRI2
<racarr> anyway. It works on intel upstream mostly at this point. and is progressing on ATI...
<racarr> but the i915_drm module changes aren't landing until 2.6.28, so it wont be in Jaunty.
<bluesmoke> hmm, i thought we had 2.6.26 in hardy
<bluesmoke> and we usually jump two between releases
<racarr> The timing just doesn't work out this time
<ebroder> Hardy is 2.6.24, Intrepid is 2.6.27
<bluesmoke> err, yeah, intrepid
<bluesmoke> wait, now i'm all confused
<bluesmoke> racarr: did you mean 2.6.29?
<racarr> This is kind of confusing. Now I'm trying to decide whether I meant 2.6.29
<racarr> we definitely determined that the kernel with the stuff needed wouldn't be in jaunty, because it wouldn't be out in time
<racarr> and I could have sworn that was .28...but that wouldn't really make much sense
<crimsun> 28 will be out in time for jaunty
<racarr> Yeah. 2.6.28 is in Jaunty. So I must be confused on when i915 stuff is landing.
<racarr> which must then be .29
<racarr> alternatively none of us in the plymouth session at UDS could count, and it actually is landing in .28 in time for jaunty
<racarr> but I don't think so.
<bluesmoke> backport? :)
<racarr> So. It's all getting put in a ppa
<racarr> to test plymouth, for boot stuff
<racarr> but it just happens to conveniently be
<racarr> all in the same package
<racarr> (kernel modesetting and DRI2)
<bluefoxicy> guys I have a question
<bluefoxicy> why the fuck is my OpenOffice.org listing fonts as "Normal" "Cursiva" "Negreta" "Negretaa cursiva"
<slangasek> surely that question works just as well without the obscenity?
<slangasek> bug #105900
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 105900 in openoffice.org "Bold, Italics, and Bold Italics not in English on Fonts menu" [Unknown,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/105900
<tjaalton> racarr: DRI2 doesn't need KMS, so 2.6.28 is enough. just that the current version of -intel in jaunty doesn't support DRI2
<tjaalton> there's a new beta available, but it needs a new libdrm which in turn crashes X, so.. :)
<racarr> tjaalton: Right. It doesn't need KMS, I was just under the impression that they happened to be in the same release
<tjaalton> racarr: nope, KMS for intel is 2.6.29, for ati maybe 2.6.30
<racarr> tjaalton: Ah. Ok. That explains my confusion. Thanks.
<Keybuk> https://lists.launchpad.net/ubuntu-boot/msg00003.html
<Keybuk> ...interesting, but probably not a metric ;)
<Keybuk> 72% of the time in initramfs is udev (though probably also waiting for the root fs), and 42% of the time booting the rest of the system is in udevsettle
<Koon> Keybuk: interesting, yes :)
<NCommander> Keybuk, that's 114% percent O_o?
<Koon> NCommander: the two % don't refer to the same thing, so no.
<NCommander> oh
 * NCommander inserts his foot into his mouth
 * RainCT watches NCommander inserting his foot into his mouth
 * NCommander turns his foot left
<lool> cjwatson: (Pushed pygobject/hardy-proposed)
 * lool lunch &
<cjwatson> lool: thanks
 * lool waves a merry christmas!
<iulian> Happy Christmas!
<kees> doko_: any chance you're around?  I have a patch to glibc to "fix" bug 305901
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 305901 in glibc "Intrepid gcc -O2 breaks string appending with sprintf(), due to fortify source patch" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/305901
<gverig> this likely is a dumb question but I can't seem to resolve it on my own. I'm on ubuntu 8.10. What package contains libGL.a?
<macd> 'apt-file search libGL.a'
<Pici> or use packages.ubuntu.com if you dont have apt-file installed.
<macd> what he said too.
<macd> ;)
<gverig> Searched packages.ubuntu.com. Found one entry: libgl1-mesa-swx11-dev. this is a "This library provides a pure software rasteriser" and it conflicts with half of the system (including "ubuntu-desktop")
<gverig> any thoughts?
<gverig> there is libGL.so... should i link against some other library?
<azeem> gverig: if you're trying to package some software, better ask in #ubuntu-motu; otherwise, ask in #ubuntu
<Nafallo> mtr 12.44.117.104
<gverig> azeem: I am trying to build something. Something I am trying to write. I asked in #ubuntu they sent me here...
<gverig> I want to play with OpenGL a bit. and I can't find a GL library to link to...
<ebroder> Find what package is providing your libGL.so, then add -dev to the package name, and see if that gives you the .a
<gverig> ebroder: yeah, tried that. libGL.so is provided by libgl1-mesa-dev. No libgl1-mesa-dev-dev :-\
<ebroder> Why not just link against the dynamic library?
<gverig> ebroder: don't I need an .a file to define how to link against a dynamic library? I have not done much C++ in a loooong while
<ebroder> No. .a is the static library, .so is the dynamic library. You don't need one to link against the other
<gverig> ebroder: OK, how do I link against dynamic library?
<ebroder> No idea - I avoid linkers at all costs :)
<gverig> o_O how do you build stuffs?
<ebroder> I write everything in Python
<gverig> ahh, ok
<ebroder> Anyway, azeem is right - this isn't really an #ubuntu-devel question anymore
<Treenaks> I just upgraded to jaunty, but now resolv.conf is empty, and I don't have a default route
<ion_> Itâs a feature. Without proper network access, the computer is now secure.
<Treenaks> ion_: except against local attackers :)
<Treenaks> ion_: but I wonder where the bug is.. dhcp client? network-manager? resolvconf?
<ion_> Computers are never secure against local attackers. :-)
<ion_> Dunno. Iâve been considering upgrading as well, perhaps iâll stumble upon the same problem. :-)
 * Nafallo should poke his eeepc
<ebroder> Treenaks: Do you have something like NetworkManager installed?
<Treenaks> ebroder: I just upgraded a mostly-standard intrepid
<Treenaks> ebroder: so yes, I have network-manager
<Treenaks> and I've already found something in its log
<ebroder> Treenaks: I've never used network-manager, but doesn't it create the resolv.conf file and routes and stuff like that? I'd check its config
<Treenaks> ebroder: I know how it should work, it's just not working as it should
<Treenaks> ebroder: actually, it worked until a few minutes ago (upgrade to jaunty)
 * ebroder shrugs
<ebroder> You've officially surpassed my expertise on network-manager :)
<ebroder> Hmm...I think the Perl security update broke the Errno module: http://pastebin.com/m6d2b5b9d
<ebroder> Is this an actual regression, or just my system being stupid?
<ebroder> Oh, never mind - I didn't notice it was in /usr/local
<nhandler> nellery: I owe you a thank you. Your merges got me in the Hall of Fame for Sponsoring the Uploads
#ubuntu-devel 2008-12-25
<LaserJock> what's the best channel for debugging? #ubuntu-bugs or #ubuntu ?
<RAOF> LaserJock: Probably #ubuntu-bugs; higher signal/noise.  Also, merry Christmas.
<Hobbsee> merry christmas all / <insert other holiday greetings here>
<NCommander> Thanks Hobbsee
<Hobbsee> anything interesting happening?
<pwnguin> kernel .28 is officially released
<NCommander> Hobbsee, I have kdebase-workspace building on ARM?
<Hobbsee> oh, score!
<Hobbsee> does it actually build?
<NCommander> Its building debs at the moment
<NCommander> the actual source bit built fine
<Riddell> yay
<NCommander> Riddell, if you feel like sponsoring :-)?
<IntuitiveNipple> Should a build-depends "liba-dev | libb-dev" cause "apt-get build-dep source-package" to succeed if libb-dev is installed? Currently I'm seeing "Package liba-dev is not available, but is referred to by another package". Deb Policy 7.1 says an OR (|) should be satisfied by either. (package mythtv, liblame-dev failing - not present since hardy)
<persia> IntuitiveNipple, It should indeed succeed, although it may be that the specific algorithm used by apt-get build-depends would benefit from checking.
<IntuitiveNipple> yeah... I've never seen this before... annoying, as all I need is to install the -dev packages so I can test a new mythtv package I've created with pulseaudio support!
<IntuitiveNipple> Do you think editing the current control file in /var/dpkg/whereever would 'hack' it
<persia> Just don't use apt-get build-dep to do it.  Just install things manually.
<IntuitiveNipple> I know... the long-winded way I was trying to avoid!
<IntuitiveNipple> I'm modifying the new package control file to fix this
<persia> Or use pbuilder or sbuild :)
<persia> Doesn't matter.  apt-get build-dep depends on the current apt cache, rather than on the contents of the files.
<IntuitiveNipple> I would but, I'm not on the development PC, I'm on the home theatre projector system
<IntuitiveNipple> Ahhh, so I shan't hack that now, it'll mess this PC up
<IntuitiveNipple> thanks
<cjwatson> anyone know whether these new packages should be synced from Debian? kbfx kde-style-comix kde-style-domino kde-style-klearlook kde-style-lipstik kde-style-polyester kde-style-serenity kdmtheme kwin-decor-suse2 kwin-style-dekorator kwin-style-knifty kwin-style-powder tastymenu
<cjwatson> normally I'd just do it but I know we have active KDE packaging work ...
 * Hobbsee wonders if those are kde3 or kde4 bits
<StevenK> That can probably be determined with grep-dctrl
<StevenK> I'd look if I wasn't about to get pulled back into family card games
<cjwatson> we're about to go and open presents, so I'll be on and off
<StevenK> Hmm. At 11am? Bit late, isn't it?
<StevenK> :-P
<cjwatson> midnight mass => late rising
<StevenK> Fair point :-)
<cjwatson> Hobbsee: all seem to be KDE3, at least judging from the kdelibs4* dependencies
<cjwatson> so I'll not worry too much about them
<cjwatson> (unless I should)
<Hobbsee> cjwatson: i don't think so
<Hobbsee> cjwatson: from what I understand, we don't distribute kde3 itself anymore, only (some) of the apps.
<Hobbsee> so the windecos definetly shouldn't be needed.
<StevenK> Which are getting removal bugs filed on them left, right and centre?
<Hobbsee> i've not tracked that closely, tbh
<rudchenkos> Hi there
<rudchenkos> I have patch for LP#292536, could anyone help me to check it in?
<rudchenkos> doh, it's Christmas :)
<Nafallo> http://isitchristmas.com/
<rudchenkos> :)
<LaserJock> rudchenkos: you can attach the patch to the bug report
<rudchenkos> LaserJock: yep, done
<rudchenkos> LaserJock: nothing more is necessary? it's really tiny
<LaserJock> bug #292536
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 292536 in ubuntu "Sticky notes prefereces dialog closes on toggling check boxes" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/292536
<LaserJock> rudchenkos: that bug needs to be against the right package
<LaserJock> I guess gnome-applets
<rudchenkos> LaserJock: ok, I'm editing the bug
<rudchenkos> sure
<rudchenkos> what status should I assign now?
<rudchenkos> assign to me?
<LaserJock> Confirmed or Triaged
<LaserJock> well, you've done your part, you don't need to be assigned
<nhandler> Confirmed would probably be better, since it already has a patch
<LaserJock> not Triaged?
<nhandler> LaserJock: Triaged is for bugs that have all of the information needed for a Developer to prepare a patch. This bug already has a patch, it just needs to be sponsored
<LaserJock> rudchenkos: you can then subscribe the ubuntu-main-sponsors team so they know
<nhandler> For bugs with a patch that need to be sponsored, you should set it to Confirmed
<LaserJock> nhandler: hmm, that seems sort of counter-intuitive
<nhandler> LaserJock: In what way?
<LaserJock> Triaged seems like "this is ready for action"
<LaserJock> and higher in hierarchy than Confirmed
 * rudchenkos looks at LaserJock and nhandler :)
<rudchenkos> oh, that's easy: there is no "Triaged" choice
<nhandler> LaserJock: The issue is, only people in Bug Control can set a status of Triaged
<LaserJock> rudchenkos: I'll defer to nhandler as he's new hotness ;-)
<LaserJock> nhandler: which I consider a bug
<nhandler> LaserJock: Personally, so do I. But you'll need to take that up with the Launchpad devs
<rudchenkos> if somebody wants to try: https://launchpad.net/~sergey.rudchenko/+archive
<nhandler> Could someone help me hunt down a package in Deiban? The Ubuntu changelog says that it came from Debian unstable. However, rmadison showed no output for the package in Debian, packages.debian.org couldn't find it, and there was no PTS page. Even stranger, it was not listed as being removed in the removal list.
<LaserJock> nhandler: what package?
<nhandler> LaserJock: kreetingkard
<nhandler> https://edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/kreetingkard
<LaserJock> good grief, can those people *not* use "k" once in a while ;-)
<Nafallo> haha
<LaserJock> nhandler: my guess is that it's not from Debian, but rather just imported from somewhere else (kde-apps.org perhaps?)
<nhandler> LaserJock: That is what I was thinking, but the changelog entries say 'unstable'. I didn't think we could sync from places other than Debian
<crimsun> the distribution field is nondefinitive for non-canonical (Debian/Ubuntu) source packages.
<LaserJock> exactly
<LaserJock> nhandler: it just means somebody put "unstable" as the target, it doesn't mean it actually came from Debian
<nhandler> But then what about the version number? Shouldn't it have a Debian revision of 0?
<crimsun> not everyone uses proper/accepted versioning practices
<LaserJock> also we may have imported it with the version that the source had
<LaserJock> it was done for dapper so it could have been at a time when we were grabbing packages from other sources
<kolby> does anyone here know how to use libxml2 ?
<kolby> What function do I use to convert a char to a xmlChar ?
<NCommander> nhandler, if the package was removed in Debian before Dapper, rmadison won't know about it
<NCommander> (or, should I say, removed from stable w/ sarge)
<Chipzz> ~..
<directhex> hm. who do i file a bug against if i can't connect to the father in law's wifi under intrepid, but it works under vista (and my home wifi works)
<ion_> The father in law.
<cpufreak> D
<cjwatson> kolby: xmlChar is just a typedef to unsigned char, so if it's just a single character then you could just cast it; if it's a string then you might want to look at functions like xmlCharStrdup in xmlstring.h, but it rather depends on what you're doing ...
<cjwatson> kolby: (I don't actually know libxml2 especially well myself - just looking at the header files)
<kolby> thank you
<kolby> cjwatson, That helped a lot.
<kolby> what's an easy networking library for starters?  Maybe libcurl?
<ebroder> Depends on what you're trying to do. The easy interface for libcurl is pretty straightforward
<directhex> i ought to try connecting with the wife's laptop. diff chip - would isolate a driver issue
#ubuntu-devel 2008-12-26
 * Hobbsee twitches
<Hobbsee> 287 mails in the ubuntu-devel moderation queue.
<Hobbsee> *So* not touching that...
<ebroder> They're all spam. Trash them all!
<Hobbsee> no, most of them are mark's thing about desktop pictures
<Hobbsee> or were last time
<pwnguin> https://usshop.ubuntu.com/product.php?catid=1&code=09%2013003BK
<pwnguin> so here's a question: is that logo in keeping with the mark? technically, you're not supposed to have anyone at the top, to symbolize equality
<pwnguin> i have no idea how that works when you rotate the whole thing
<slytherin> Can any archive admin please tell me what is the time for next auto sync from Debian?
<persia> slytherin, DIF has well passed for most of the globe.  More autosyncs are unlikely.
<persia> heh.  Actually, DIF finished 42 minutes ago.
<slytherin> Oh. I haven't kept my eye on calendar then. I thought DIF was 31st December
<slytherin> persia: I guess I will have to log bugs then.
<persia> Most likely, yes.
<imachine> tseliot, are you around?
<imachine> tseliot, I have some troubles trying to load 180-intrepid onto intrepid.
<imachine> some info would be appreciated ;]
<tseliot> imachine: did you file a bug report?
<imachine> tseliot, about?
<imachine> no, I downloaded files from bazaar
<imachine> 180-intrepid
<imachine> and I need some guidance on how to make a .deb file out of the resulting directory
<imachine> as regards previous, hmm. I'll look at mentioning a bug in .nv
<tseliot> imachine: that's just an experiment. The branches are not ready
<imachine> tseliot, so I can't build anything from those files?
<imachine> I'm aware it's uber-testing. I just wanted to see how it works ho.
<imachine> *tho
<tseliot> imachine: no, not yet
<imachine> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/xserver-xorg-video-nv/+bug/128413 <- here's the bug report from our previous discussion.
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 128413 in xserver-xorg-video-nv "nv free driver no display on return from suspend to ram" [Wishlist,Confirmed]
<imachine> about nv being an arse :-)
<imachine> tseliot, okay, I'll wait I guess. I hear thre's some issues with 180 and suspend as well.
<tseliot> yep, right
<NCommander> Can a build admin kill yorick on armel? Its been building for the better part of a week, I think its stuck in an infinite loop
<RainCT> If /etc/apt/apt.conf.d/10periodic sets a setting, it can be overriden with another file there starting by a higher number, right?
<maxb> I was looking some binary-outdate-w.r.t.-source packages... cmucl has been FTBFS since *hoary* ! - there's a bug, but it was last active 10 months ago. Is it worth nominating the bug for jaunty and/or subscribing ubuntu-archive to get more eyes on it?
<maxb> bug 31098 ftr
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 31098 in cmucl "Build-Depends dependency for cmucl cannot be satisfied (circular build-depends; needs manual bootstrapping on the buildd)" [Medium,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/31098
<cjwatson> please don't subscribe ubuntu-archive unless there is confirmed action for an archive administrator to perform
<cjwatson> which generally does not include FTBFS-type problems that should be fixed by developers
<NCommander> wow
<NCommander> I had 36GB worth of debs in pbuilder/*/-results O_o;
<RainCT> Hi
<RainCT> How can I add a new recommends to ubuntu-desktop? I'm not sure if I understand how ubuntu-meta works..
<Hobbsee> RainCT: I have to go out RSN, but i'll give you the general idea.
<Hobbsee> RainCT: ~ubuntu-dev bzr has a whole bunch of stuff, including some seeds
<Hobbsee> the seeds are named ubuntu.jaunty and such
<Hobbsee> you can check them out and have a look.  the ones in parenthesis are recommends
<Hobbsee> (there's a readme for the different sections, including 'desktop')
<Hobbsee> when you run ./update in the ubuntu-meta source package, it pulls the information from bzr, and uses germinate to create lists of dependancies and recommends
<Hobbsee> spits you out your deb, and voila
<Hobbsee> sorry, ~ubuntu-core-dev, i believe
<RainCT> Hobbsee: Ah, I see. And what's if I want to add something directly without having to touch the seeds (as the package is not for Ubuntu itself)? I guess the best in this case would be to just add it to debian/control?
<cjwatson> probably, yes
<cjwatson> that's strictly forbidden for Ubuntu itself but it's fine if it's outside the archive
<RainCT> Hobbsee, cjwatson: OK, thanks :)
<persia> Rather than adding it to debian/control, one can add it to the lists in the package directory, and regenerate, without reference to the seeds, which might be easier to manage later.
#ubuntu-devel 2008-12-27
<RainCT> persia: but then I have to add it to the several files for each architecture (whereas in debian/control it only needs to be added once), or?
<RainCT> Well, I'm off..
<RainCT> persia: Thanks. (Feel free to send me a memo if you fell like answering my last question :))
<RainCT> good night all
<terli> how do you cat FROM a terminal's input to a file?
<tbrock> hey guys I'm looking for a developer mentor
<tbrock> or someone to point me in the right direction to get started
<tbrock> and i was hoping this was the place
<tbrock> anyone around? i know its a friday night but... haha
<Adri2000> tbrock: please join #ubuntu-motu
<tbrock> oh thanks
<tbrock> apologies
<cjwatson> terli: assuming you start cat from the terminal in question, then surely its standard input will already be the same as the terminal's input, so you just need 'cat >file' or 'cat >>file' (depending on whether you want overwrite or append)
<terli> ok cjwatson let me run this simple script on you
<terli> colaudio(){ cat | > XTR;}
<terli> cataudio(){ echo "$XTR" > /dev/audio; echo "$XTR";}
<terli> while [ true ]
<terli> do
<terli> colaudio; cataudio;
<terli> done
<terli> that is the sum and the square of my insanity.
<cjwatson> terli: I'm not sure what you think "cat | > XTR" is supposed to do, and the following line seems to suggest that you're confusing files and variables. Furthermore 'while [ true ]' is a strange way to say 'while true'
<terli> it was in the manual *sheepish*
<terli> I was originally using [ 1=1 ]
<terli> my question is how to run the script, add input while script is running, and have the script process the input
<cjwatson> [ anything ] means "is 'anything' a string of non-zero length"
<cjwatson> you might need a better manual ...
<cjwatson> perhaps what you are looking for is replacing that whole script with 'tee /dev/audio'?
<terli> omg
<terli> where did that come from!?!?
<cjwatson> assuming that I've understood what you're trying to do correctly (a program that takes its standard input and writes it both to its standard output and /dev/audio"
<cjwatson> )
<terli> o yes its just supposed to echo my noisy typing to dev/audio
<cjwatson> if you don't need to write it to its standard output as well, you could just say 'cat >/dev/audio'
<ebroder> Be careful with tee - it does do some buffering of some sort
<terli> well that command works but I cant hear it
<cjwatson> there's no need for all that complicated cat/echo stuff which isn't going to do anything like what you want anyway
<ebroder> terli: Try just using cat >/dev/audio if you can survive without seeing it; there might be buffering happening
<terli> I can't hear it like that either
<terli> its sending everything to a second buffer
<cjwatson> if you really want to do line-at-a-time stuff and strictly avoid buffering, then a working translation would be 'while true; do read line; echo "$line" >/dev/audio; echo "$line"; done' - but if you can't hear it when you type at 'cat >/dev/audio' directly then you have a lower-level problem
<terli> there is ONE issue
<terli> I'm hacking on parallels
<terli> and I had to copy bash onto bin
<terli> I mean bash onto sh
<cjwatson> that's a bug in whatever script can't cope with /bin/sh not being bash
<cjwatson> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DashAsBinSh
<terli> sudo mv /bin/sh /bin/sh.old && sudo ln -s /bin/bash /bin/sh is the command I had to run
<karthik_> hey
<karthik_> need some help in programmin
<karthik_> how do write a prog so that using that i shd be able to switch workspaces
<stgraber> karthik_: please read the channel's topic. It's about the development of Ubuntu not developing on Ubuntu
<karthik_> stgraber: hey i'm not developing on ubuntu.. i just want to know how ubuntu does it internally
<Treenaks> karthik_: look at libwnck
<Treenaks> karthik_: Ubuntu does it the same way as other Gnome-using distributions
<Treenaks> karthik_: http://library.gnome.org/devel/libwnck/stable/
<karthik_> Treenaks: ok i'll try
<fabbione> soren: ping?
<pitti> ScottK: sorry, I'm still on holiday, didn't have time for archive admin stuff
<pitti> cjwatson: one day earlier> I admit I sometimes do that as well when I'm in a SRU cleanup mode..
<isle85> Hi, need help to build a debian/watch file for my package. its name is :  genj-arvernes_2008.12.26-0ubuntu1_all.deb
<directhex> isle85, and what's the url for the orig.tar.gz for that deb?
<isle85> I wrote that in it :
<isle85> version=3
<isle85> http://www.arvernes.com/files/genj_classic/genj-arvernes-(.*)\.tar\.gz
<directhex> that wasn't technically the question. i asked the url for the tar.gz, not the contents of your watchfile
<isle85> sorry : http://www.arvernes.com/files/genj_classic/
<directhex> http://www.arvernes.com/files/genj_classic/genj-arvernes-2008.12.26.tar.gz
<directhex> The requested URL /files/genj_classic/genj-arvernes-2008.12.26.tar.gz was not found on this server.
<isle85> maybe my mistake as I named genj-arvernes-2008.12.26.tar.gz as genj-arvernes-2008.12.26.orig.tar.gz
<directhex> sigh.
<directhex> look, i'm not trying to irrutate here, but there seems to be some kind of barrier going on. a watch file needs to know the exact path of the file to download for a specific version. when i say "what's the url for the orig.tar.gz for that deb" i literally mean "what's the full url to the file you download and rename as genj-arvernes_2008.12.26.orig.tar.gz"
<directhex> also, this is for #ubuntu-motu, not #ubuntu-devel
<isle85> sorry directhex. Thank you for helping.
<directhex> as an example, a watch file saying "  http://ftp.novell.com/pub/mono/sources/mono-basic/ mono-basic-([.\d]+)\.tar\.bz2" is used to download http://ftp.novell.com/pub/mono/sources/mono-basic/mono-basic-2.0.tar.bz2
<isle85> ok, understood. Thanks
<directhex> as far as i can tell, that upstream doesn't even have versioned source tarballs
<isle85> I'm totally new to that, and I tried to help to distribute a program people here write. I've been successfull to build an ubuntu package, now I would like to make it easier for people to be up to date with it. I'm learning , sorry.
<directhex> the path to the source seems to be http://www.arvernes.com/V1/pages/compteur_dl.php?/files/genj_classic/genj_src.zip
<directhex> but that's unversioned AND requires repacking from zip
<isle85> hmm, now the file is there : ï»¿http://www.arvernes.com/files/genj_classic/ubuntu/genj-arvernes-2008.12.26.tar.gz
<directhex> you seem to have picked an inordinately complex example to build a watch file for
<isle85> I've downloaded lots of source files, and try to find out and understand the way it works looking into them
<directhex> that orig can't be used as-is, it contains an enormous quantity of binaries, which aren't permitted in source tarballs
<directhex> also, this is for #ubuntu-motu, not #ubuntu-devel
<isle85> ok, I'm gonna join that chanel. thank you directhex.
<lubosz> hi
<lubosz> any ideas when the zsnes package will be fixed in intrepid?
<lubosz> are there any intensions to do that?
<lubosz> is this a support question? ^^
<lubosz> this bug is open quite a long time now, and no one seems to care https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/zsnes/+bug/250425
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 250425 in zsnes "zsnes crashes with buffer overflow on startup" [Medium,Triaged]
<restartme> Em
<restartme> Hello :)
<restartme> How can i run root shell or whatever it is... To Do sh '/home/martynas/Desktop/NVIDIA-Linux-x86-96.43.07-pkg1.run\
<restartme> ..
<restartme> driver says... That i need to run it from somewhere...
<restartme> I dont know where
<ebroder> restartme: #ubuntu-devel is for Ubuntu development. Ask in #ubuntu
<restartme> I have just installed ubuntu, and it's pissed me off so please help
<restartme> So
<restartme> Can't you just say how to boot cmd, not gui?
<ebroder> restartme: This is not the right place to be asking. Ask in #ubuntu. People aren't going to help you in here
<restartme> Oh
<restartme> Is too hard for you
<restartme> :(
<restartme> ;(
<restartme> devs
<restartme> and don't know how to boot some shit..
<restartme> Yeah right..
<ebroder> Yep. And trolling and being belligerent is going to get you /all/ of the help in the world
<Ng> restartme: if you're not comfortable with shells, installing the nvidia drivers by hand is probably not a good idea. they are packaged in Ubuntu (see System->Administration->Hardware Drivers)
<rexbron> would someone be able to look at bug 311804?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 311804 in libraw1394 "Update libraw1394 to version 2.0" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/311804
<restartme> linux crash
<restartme> on update
<restartme> what to do?
<restartme> bus
<restartme> bugs
<joaopinto> restartme, the support channel is #ubuntu, not here
<restartme> i am about not support
<restartme> about bug\
<restartme> really big
<restartme> ;D
<cjwatson> (earlier aggressive behaviour)
<emgent> lol
<directhex> evening cjwatson
<cjwatson> hello
<shaya> wondering if in ubuntu kernel's there's a backwards compatible vfs_link ?
<shaya> as ubuntu's has been modified (presumambly for apparmor)
#ubuntu-devel 2008-12-28
<persia> Could an archive admin please expedite the sync of pokerth (bug #310962).  The servers don't work with 6.2.2. anymore (needs 6.2.3), and there is some clamour for backporting.
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 310962 in pokerth "[Sync Request Universe] pokerth 0.6.3-1" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/310962
<cjwatson> persia: done
<persia> cjwatson, Thank you.
<persia> Zhenech, Go ahead with the backports, once it compiles.  Thanks for preparing that.
<tmmoyer> If I am building a custom kernel, and building the debs for it, is there anyway to add extra version information such that I can install the same version of the kernel without my custom modifications?  For example, I have linux-image-2.6.24-22-server installed and I would like to patch it and rebuild it.  When I install the custom version, how can I make is so that I can have both the Ubuntu package installed and my custom packag
<leprasmurf> hello all.  I'm wondering, what language is ubuntu programmed in?  The kernel is C right?
<tmmoyer> the kernel is in C yes, the other applications are in a variety of languages
<tmmoyer> is there a particular application you are looking at?
<leprasmurf> I was wondering about the majority of what ubuntu uses.  so like gnome, or firefox
<tmmoyer> my guess is some combination of C and C++ with a good mix of scripting languages as well
<tmmoyer> Perl and Python probably being the most common
<tmmoyer> Ruby and shell scripts too
<leprasmurf> I'm going from "Programming C" into "Programming C++" in school, and just trying to figure out if I should focus on c++ or just get through it as quickly as possible
<ion_> Learning many languages never hurts. Learning to think in different ways makes you a better programmer in any language.
<tmmoyer> i would get comfortable with one before branching out though
<ion_> Sure
<tmmoyer> C++ isn't too bad, I started with C and then picked up C++
<leprasmurf> I've tried to subscribe to the theory of "jack of all languages, master of one"
<leprasmurf> but I
<leprasmurf> but I'm trying to figure out my one :-)
<tmmoyer> my current usage tends to be Python with some C thrown in when I need it, Java rarely
<tmmoyer> no one language is suited to everything
<tmmoyer> it really depends on what you want to do
<leprasmurf> I've been thinking about java only for the android :-/ it currently doesn't support c(++)
<tmmoyer> yup
<tmmoyer> although the android kernel is in C
<tmmoyer> and being open source, you can do whatever you want with it
<tmmoyer> android is nothing but linux with some extra layers of abstraction
<leprasmurf> I don't know exactly where I want to bring it, but right now I'm enjoying game programming.  (I made hangman!! :-) )
<leprasmurf> yeah, but the android API is only java I think
<tmmoyer> yup
<leprasmurf> I've still got around 50-60 credits to make it through
<leprasmurf> but I like trying to play around on my own
<tmmoyer> good luck
<leprasmurf> thanks
<tmmoyer> i agree with ion_ though, learn a bunch and then choose what fits
<leprasmurf> well, I'm already pretty proficient in perl, php, asp, various scripting languages, and HTML (That's a programming language right :-P )
<leprasmurf> and I've just finished C, going into C++ and .NET is on the agenda
<calc> python and bash may also be useful to learn
<leprasmurf> I love bash, but I've avoided python.
<calc> well python is somewhat better than perl, it being a write-only language and all
<tmmoyer> i like python
<tmmoyer> it allows for rapid prototyping and is fairly easy to understand
<calc> heh ;-)
<leprasmurf> I have heard that python is especially easy to learn/understand
<calc> leprasmurf: yes i'm not certain but i think it was probably designed with the failings of perl in mind
<calc> even the author of perl code can often not understand what they have written, but it is much easier to pick up random python code and understand what is going on
<leprasmurf> it uses tabbing rather than encapsulation though, right?
<tmmoyer> having worked with both perl and python, i can honestly say I prefer python for its readability and eas of use
<tmmoyer> yes whitespace matters in python
<calc> leprasmurf: it just uses whitespace as a delimiter rather than braces
<Treenaks> tmmoyer: well, only leading whitespace ;)
<tmmoyer> yes
<leprasmurf> see, I, personally, think that sucks
<tmmoyer> sorry
<leprasmurf> I like my curly brackets :-)
<tmmoyer> i thought so too at first, but it is actually very nice
<tmmoyer> i feel that it forces me to write neater code
<leprasmurf> until you get on a tiny screen or terminal and all your crap is wrapped and vim's % doesn't work :-)
<tmmoyer> i generally don't wrap anything in vim
<tmmoyer> so i guess i don't notice that
<leprasmurf> hehe, that helps
<leprasmurf> alright, well thanks for the advice
<leprasmurf> I have to go work on my mythbox (stupid frontend spawning 6 instances)
<leprasmurf> have a good one
<tmmoyer> leprasmuf: no problem
<tmmoyer> good luck with classes
<leprasmurf> thanks
<leprasmurf> 96 in C at least :-)
<tmmoyer> so anyone here know a lot about building custom kernels?
<tmmoyer> how hard would it be to create a custom flavour for the kernel build?
<tmmoyer> for example take the server flavour and "fork" a custom flavour called server-custom?
<stgraber> bryce: I just had a look at that broken ATI laptop again, bug report is bug 311867
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 311867 in xserver-xorg-video-ati "X crashes when loading the radeon driver on Jaunty" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/311867
<stgraber> bryce: the laptop is currently in the broken state, please ask for anything that may help fixing it (I'll have to revert to the previous packages on Monday)
<bryce> stgraber: Xorg.0.log from each of a) stock xorg.conf (or no xorg.conf), b) with XAA specified for AccelMethod, and c) with EXA specified
<bryce> stgraber: you indicate that others with similar hardware will have the same problem - do you have some references to other instances of this problem?
<stgraber> well, at least the two laptops I have at the office with the same video card show the problem
<stgraber> bryce: ok, all three Xorg.0.log are attached
<stgraber> bryce: the diff between the EXA and XAA one is really interesting as it's basically nothing
<stgraber> bryce: (other than the date, the VT and the fact that it reads the AccelMethod line)
<soren> fabbione: Yes?
<fabbione> soren: hey dude... having nice xmas vacation?
<fabbione> soren: did you ever notice hardy kernel OOPS when you set kvm vcpus > 1?
<fabbione> soren: it's reproducible all the time.. the list of OOPS is endless. It also recovers but performances of the overall system gets _extremely_ bad
<fabbione> soren: the kernel that OOPS is the host.. the guest doesn't see anything
<soren> fabbione: Hmm... Nope. I've seen a few issues here and there with smp guests, but nothing as severe as that. Exactly which kernel version?
<fabbione> soren: whatever is in hardy latest updates.
<fabbione> soren: i'll collect stuff for you later and file a bug report. If you haven't seen it before I doubt you have data anyway
<soren> fabbione: I don't have much hardware available, so I don't actually have any hardy boxes for testing :(
<fabbione> soren: well.... anyway.. it's food time..
<soren> fabbione: Sure.
<soren> fabbione: ...but yes, a bug report would be much appreciated.
<fabbione> soren: no worries... will do later today'
<AlkoHooligan58_> moin
<AlkoHooligan58_> is da jemand??
<jpds> Hello.
<AlkoHooligan58_> ???
<asac> Riddell: btw, why didnt you comment rejection reason on bug?
<asac> (this question came up when i talked to the packager about why you rejected them)
<Zhenech> persia, thanks, backports requested (LP 311936)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 311936 in intrepid-backports "Please backport pokerth 0.6.3-1 to Intrepid and Hardy" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/311936
<maxb> I've filed LP 311952 concerning overly agressive interpretation of Packages-arch-specific. Should I be sending any message to somewhere Ubuntu, rather than Launchpad, related?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 311952 in soyuz "Packages-arch-specific blocking of a single binary blocks the entire source package" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/311952
<michael48> I would like to know whether usplash 0.5.25 does support resolutions other than 800x600, 640x480, 1365x768 and 1024x768, like it happened to be with THEME_VERSION 2. I tried to compile a theme with resolutions other than those, and the theme compiles but doesn't work. Any suggestion?
<directhex> is your theme a 4:3 resolution?
<michael48> directhex I would like a 1400x1050 resolution, is that 16:9?
<directhex> michael48, 16:10. but usplash doesn't technically support non-4:3 resolutions - you're meant to take the theme you want to use, then squash it with borders so that it's saved in a 4:3 res, but gets stretched out again when displayed
<terli> hey. you. developers. I've got a feature request, and it's going to be implemented by jaunty, or else.
<terli> I want this FW:
<terli> to mark shuttleworth himself
<crimsun> terli: send an e-mail to ubuntu-devel-discuss at lists dot ubuntu dot com
<terli> When Ubuntu updates, it consumes an inordinate amount of bandwidth downloading the full packages. This should not be. Get to work implementing some form of -diff or delta for .deb packages.
<michael48> directhex Thanx a lot, so you mean I can add even to spalsh 0.5.25 what ever themes as far as they are pure 4:3 res?
<stgraber> michael48: yeah, that should work, then usplash will take care of the rendering based on the usplash.conf file
<directhex> michael48, i haven't checked very recent versions of usplash, but the case when i described was the state of play for intrepid
<directhex> terli, or else what?
<terli> I didn't specify an "else".
<terli> o wait, I did.
<terli> or else, erm, umm
<terli> you will all get a nasty cold.
<terli> so there.
<directhex> too late.
<michael48> directhex stgraber BUT I googled for 4:3 resolutions and 1400x1050 *IS* 4:3 according to a list I found... No way to add such resolution to usplash-theme-ubuntu.c to the standard ones and to get a working .so theme!
<directhex> oh, hm, so it is. i was thinking of 1680x1050
<cjwatson> maxb: just soyuz is fine
<michael48> directhex Whilst 1365x768 IS a 16:9 and the usplash-theme-ubuntu.c ships with that resolution ( I mean the standard usplash-theme source package). How's that? If I managed to understand that, I could grab the ratio of this new usplash version ...
<directhex> michael48, how does your /etc/usplash.conf look?
<michael48> x=1400 y=1050
<michael48> And in fact I am able to load the theme  I compiled, but it is rendered smaller than my vesafb resolution
<michael48> which I chose as of 1400x1050
<directhex> how did you set it at that?
<michael48> through grub.lst vga=0x348
<directhex> and where did you get that value from?
<michael48>  sudo hwinfo --framebuffer
<directhex> okay, good call.
<directhex> hm
<michael48> 1400x1050 24 bits
<directhex> "not sure" is the answer now then. i tried looking at the hwinfo source once, and ran screaming
<directhex> anything past 1280x1024 is a system-specific value
<directhex> i.e. depends on your gpu. but it sounds like that's not the issue
<michael48> but dmesg at startup says the console res. is set to 1400x1050
<directhex> but usplash behaves funny when you use a framebuffer console
<directhex> which is unfortunate
<directhex> for the sake of argument, what happens if you turn off the fb console?
<michael48> well i didn't try that, since i use the console a lot and i want an optimal res. for it
<michael48> shall i maybe use 16 bit instead of 24 bit?
<directhex> might help. might not
<directhex> usplash needs work to, well, suck less. but the source is a scary place
<michael48> When I compiled the theme after adding the 1400x1050 pixmaps sudo usplash -c said No theme for res. 1400x1050 available..
<terli> there, I sent an email to the lists.
<terli> not that I expect any positive feedback.
<michael48> directhex Hello again. It works now!! I was just compiling without setting the appropriate values for all parameters in the struc. AND I was also probably messing things up with the palette values. I wanted to tell you this so that you don't blame too much yourself or the people mantaining usplash! But creating a personal theme should be a user friendlier task!! Thans again.
#ubuntu-devel 2009-12-21
<ScottK> NCommander: Need some help on qt4-x11 on powerpc.
<ScottK> NCommander: slangasek figured a work-around for the ld segfault, we just need some help figuring out how to mangle the .pro files to make it apply to powerpc.
<crypt-0> is lucid stable enough to test yet?
<crypt-0> in other words, is it worth in install , without having to hack the rest together?
<crimsun> WFM; YMMV
 * hyperair just realized that file-roller doesn't seem to have been merged/synced from debian for a long time. is there a reason for that?
<ScottK> Most likely no one did it.
<hyperair> it doesn't appear in merges.ubuntu.com either
<StevenK> hyperair: We have our version of it
<hyperair> and all the file-roller changelog entries are -0ubuntu1
<StevenK> hyperair: IE, we handle the packaging of it, and don't want to use Debian's packaging
<hyperair> ah i see
<DaskreeCh> Hello
<DaskreeCh> Does anyone have any insight as to why do-release-upgrade would fail with no new release found on Jaunty at this time ?
<StevenK> didrocks: Hm. In the ubuntu-netbook-remix-default-settings postrm: if [ ! -d /var/lib/gconf/une.mandatory ]; then rm -rf /var/lib/gconf/une.mandatory ; fi
<StevenK> didrocks: Isn't that test backwards, and should be if [ -d ?
<pitti> Good morning
<StevenK> Morning pitti!
<pitti> hey StevenK
<pitti> hm, a weekend and no pings in scrollback? must be Christmas..
<StevenK> pitti: Haha!
<jmarsden> pitti: Thanks for your help getting the fix for bug #223281 into Karmic... how do we now get it into Lucid?  Officially it should have gone into Lucid first, but that doesn't seem to have happened in this case?  Or am I just confused?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 223281 in python2.6 "locale._parse_localename fails when localename does not contain encoding information (was: alacarte crashed with ValueError in _parse_localename() )" [Medium,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/223281
<pitti> jmarsden: erm, it is? see comment 37, and hte lucid task is closed
<pitti> $ LANG=en_AG python2.6 -c "import locale ; print locale.getdefaultlocale()"
<pitti> ('en_AG', None)
<pitti> ^ on lucid
<pitti> I tested that when I sponsored
<jmarsden> OK, I missed that comment.  I read comment #36 and didn't realize you'd been able to get the patch to work in Lucid OK.  Cool.
<dholbach> good morning
<geser> james_w: I trying to merge "dictionaries-common" the bzr way: bzr branch lp:ubuntu/lucid/dictionaries-common, bzr merge-package lp:debian/squeeze/dictionaries-common but I get "bzr: ERROR: No such tag: upstream-1.4.0". Did I something wrong or is this because it's a native package?
<james_w> geser: merge-package is currently broken with native packages, you can use "bzr merge" until it is fixed.
<geser> james_w: thanks, this worked
<Riddell> pitti: kubuntu-dev approved Lure to for a per-package upload for digikam and kdegraphics, are you able to add those permissions for him?
<pitti> Riddell: technically yes, but formally this has to be run by DMB
<pitti> (since these packages are in main)
<pitti> I agree that this is a bit weird, since you could give him even more permissions by adding him to kubuntu-dev without getting DMB ack
<Riddell> pitti: we weren't clear if we were empowered to do such things but since the packages are within the list of kubuntu-dev it would seem daft if we couldn't approve for a subset of kubuntu-dev
<pitti> so eventually this policy needs to be cleaned up wrt. existing delegations
<Riddell> pitti: how do I contact the DMB then?
<pitti> Riddell: developer-membership-board@lists.ubuntu.com
<pitti> in that thread we should also discuss a general policy change for this delegation case
<pitti> seems silly right now
<Keybuk> slangasek: I'm not sure why you've marked "migrate apparmor to Upstart" as DONE when there's still clearly an init script
<cjwatson> james_w: is there a standard way of importing just an upstream release tarball, given the upstream branch on which it's based?
<james_w> cjwatson: "just" ?
<cjwatson> well, I don't want to do a merge as well, like merge-upstream does - I just want the import step
<james_w> there's no way currently
<james_w> from the CLI at least
<pitti> oh, how does it figure out the release tarball from just a branch? doesn't that require a watch file?
<cjwatson> ok, so I guess I just unpack, 'bzr add --file-ids-from path-to-other-branch', and commit
<cjwatson> pitti: in my case I'm talking about a manual operation for a package natively maintained in bzr
<pitti> ah
<cjwatson> I just imported openssh's CVS history :)
<cjwatson> and glued it into the upstream import
<crimsun> Would an archive admin please reject karmic-proposed's alsa-lib_1.0.20-3ubuntu6.1? I'm reworking the SRU debdiff based on a newer patch by upstream (based on my submitted patch).
<pitti> crimsun: done
<crimsun> pitti: thanks. SRU proposal updated and uploaded.
<mathiaz> what's the CLI version to add a ppa to the sources.list?
<ion> add-apt-repository ppa:foo IIRC
<mathiaz> ion: great - thanks
<ion> keybuk: https://code.edge.launchpad.net/~ion/ubuntu/lucid/mountall/lucid but unfortunately iâm unable to make a bootchart with this change, since plymouth just cancels any fscks in my VM.
<Keybuk> how does plymouth cancel fscks?
<Keybuk> (merged)
<ion> keybuk: I havenât investigated it any further, but plymouth seems unable to display aything, and whenever mountall starts a fsck, it gets cancelled immediately.
<ion> I assumed itâs due to the user interaction code thinking the user pressed esc or somethig.
<apw> pitti, you about?  wondering if you/anyone knows where the base corelimit is set
<Keybuk> ion: possibly, am working on that code today a bit
<apw> Keybuk, ion?
<Keybuk> apw: comes from the kernel, overridden by upstart "limit core" (if any), overridden by PAM /etc/security/limits.conf (if set), overridden by bash, etc.
<apw> ahh... a person :)
<Keybuk> I think it basically ends up 0 all the way down
<apw> Keybuk, so where would i find limit core, in .conf files for upstart yes?
<Keybuk> apw: I don't think we override it anywhere
<apw> ok so it must be 0 in the kernel then
<apw> Keybuk, ok if i needed to set rlimit core to 1 for 'everything' is that easy in upstart
<pitti> meh, gdm still fails to start
<Keybuk> apw: -1 you mean?
<Keybuk> no, it's not easy
<Keybuk> unless you want to patch the kernel? :p
<apw> no i mean 1
<pitti> it seems gdm and KMS start around the same time, and both lose
<pitti> apw: it should be 0 by default, shouldn't it?
<Keybuk> 1 is a tiny core limit?
<pitti> apw: you can override it in /etc/security/limits.conf
<pitti> it's 0 by default (as it should be)
<Keybuk> apw: what are you trying to do?
<apw> pitti, well yes and no, a new mechanism to handle detect recursive core dumping by the core dump pipe process has changed the semantics of 0 for that case
<apw> in that i really does mean no dump ... any other value means infinity with pipe
<pitti> ah, so that was it
<apw> yep
<Keybuk> apw: if something in the kernel has changed what the default should be, change the kernel default to match ?
<apw> so one option would be to use 1
<apw> Keybuk, the default is what its meant to be.  no core.
<apw> just the meaning in the face of pipe has changed
<pitti> apw: 1 would mean 0 for all practical cases, but enable pipe again?
<Keybuk> apw: then the default throughout the system will also be "no core", right?
<Keybuk> since ulimit -c in my shell says "unlimited", something must be setting it to -1
<apw> pitti, my testing of that says so yes
<Keybuk> (apparently my own .zshrc :p)
<apw> Keybuk, its returning 0 for me
<Keybuk> right
<Keybuk> <pitti> it's 0 by default (as it should be)
<Keybuk> <apw> Keybuk, the default is what its meant to be.  no core.
<Keybuk> ...
<Keybuk> so we're all on the same page here?
<Keybuk> the default is 0 (no core), and we all think it should be?
<pitti> ack
<apw> basically we want no core without apport, and a core with apport right?
<pitti> well, I don't particularly care about the exact value 0
<apw> and we are using the way 0 worked to get that
<pitti> just to not clutter the fs with core files by default
<Keybuk> right, that is my understanding
<Keybuk> no core files, but yes to core pipes
<apw> right ... so i think a dirty fix would be to have the default be 1
<pitti> that's what Neil Hormann recommended, too
<pitti> (thanks for digging out that commit)
<Keybuk> sounds reasonable
<apw> i do like the safety aspect of the 0 == die on recursion
<Keybuk> so where the kernel sets 0 as the default, change that to 1
<apw> so if we are happy 1 is good, we have to decide how to set it for us
<apw> well if its easy to change it in /etc/security/limits.conf that would be lower impact
<Keybuk> apw: that won't work
<apw> (on me) :)
<Keybuk> for a start, PAM is not used for system daemons
<Keybuk> so those would still have 0
<pitti> that wouldn't catch early boot and daemons, though
<pitti> right
<Keybuk> you could set it in upstart, but that's a hacky code change to work around the fact we don't have the source to our kernel
<Keybuk> (which we do)
<Keybuk> you could set it in the initramfs, but then anyone not using an initramfs would have 0
<apw> does apport start early enough to get cores there?
<Keybuk> really, set it in the kernel ;P
<Keybuk> apw: it doesn't matter when apport starts; apport isn't inherited
<Keybuk> apport is either on or off
<Keybuk> if you start a system daemon, then start apport, cores go to appor
<Keybuk> +t
<apw> fair
<Keybuk> also, I'd point out that any point you're trying to do this in the boot sequence is adding at least one syscall to our boot ;)
<Keybuk> maybe even an entire shell script
<Keybuk> etc.
<Keybuk> just to work around changing a default in the kernel :P
<apw> heh all changes have risk, specially where noone has added an option for it (sadly)
<dholbach> who can I interest in giving a session at UDW? https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDeveloperWeek/Prep
<tseliot> pitti: are there any plans to change ia32-libs in lucid? I think I heard something about it but I'm not sure
<pitti> tseliot: foundations is working on a real multiarch implementation, but right now I don't know whether that will land soon enough
<tseliot> pitti: ah, ok. I asked as I need to use alternatives in ia32-libs too. I think I'll just modify that package until a different solution is found
<sgallagh> mathiaz: ping
<mathiaz> sgallagh: hi!
<mathiaz> sgallagh: I noticed sssd 1.0 had been released.
<sgallagh> mathiaz: Long time no see. How was your vacation? :)
<mathiaz> sgallagh: great! thanks :)
<sgallagh> mathiaz: I was trying to reach you last week to get a build done of the pre-release code to make sure nothing was broken for you, but you were away and I didn't know who was filling in.
<sgallagh> So hopefully 1.0.0 doesn't break anything for you, but we can work out a patch if needed.
<mathiaz> sgallagh: right - that's ok. I may have some more spare cycle in the new year to make sure things are all good for 1.0.0
<mathiaz> sgallagh: I'll let you know if I run into some issues with 1.0
<sgallagh> mathiaz: Please do.
<sgallagh> mathiaz: I also wanted to know: did you ever build either of the pre-releases (0.99.0 and 0.99.1)? Because we discovered a security bug in them.
<sgallagh> (It's fixed in 1.0.0)
<mathiaz> sgallagh: nope
<sgallagh> mathiaz: ok, great
<sgallagh> The bug wasn't present in 0.7.1 or earlier, so Karmic is probably safe.
<mathiaz> sgallagh: good to know
<Keybuk> tseliot, ion: did you notice that plymouth starts on the wrong VT>
<tseliot> Keybuk: no, as I haven't used Lucid for a while. Does it start on vt1?
<Keybuk> well
<Keybuk> that's the funny thing
<ion> I havenât really got around to looking at plymouth yet.
<Keybuk> it switches to vt7
<Keybuk> but then appears on vt1
<Keybuk> I think this is why the input is screwed up
<Keybuk> and think this is why the X transition is screwed up
<ion> Ah
<tseliot> Keybuk: does this happen only on boot?
<Keybuk> no
<Keybuk> start plymouth on the console does it too
<Keybuk> (assuming X isn't running :p)
<Keybuk> it ends up over your current VT
<tseliot> hopefully gdb will help us see what's grabbing vt1
 * Keybuk gets karmic deja-vu
<Keybuk> debugging filesystem progress notification results in debugging the splash screen
<tseliot> :-/
<Keybuk> it's all good really
<Keybuk> it all needs debugging
<Keybuk> and at least it's not usplash :p
<tseliot> heh
<ion> :-)
<Keybuk> I made mountall not depend on plymouth anyway
<Keybuk> if plymouth isn't running, it pretends that the broken filesystem had "nobootwait" in it :p
<tseliot> I'll have more time to spend on plymouth as soon as I'm done with nvidia
 * tseliot -> doctor
<smoser> anyone have an update to date archive mirror that they can 'du -sm' for me ? i'm just mirroring and want to see what I'm shooting for. currently i've got 268332
<smoser> i think i've got to be close
<smoser> Keybuk, i think you mentioned a way once to  me that I could ensure that I ran before a given upstart job.
<smoser> explicitly, I want to ensure that I run before rc-sysinit.conf
<Keybuk> on starting rc-sysinit ?
<cwillu_at_work> incidently:  gdm doesn't start after booting in recovery mode and selecting 'continue normal boot';  one has to run gdm-binary by hand
<Keybuk> ion: try current mountall
<Keybuk> (trunk)
<jpds> smoser: http://www.mirrorservice.org/sites/archive.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/
<slangasek> Keybuk: because I can never keep apparmor and apport straight
<slangasek> even between one terminal window and the next
<ebroder> slangasek: Really? It's easy - one of them reports bugs, and the other one creates bugs
<ejat> anyone know how to clean/delete previous conversation in empathy ?
<ScottK> pitti: Would you please rescore gcc-4.4 on ia64 down to 2000?  We're about to upload a complete KDE release and we'll have fewer failures/retries later if it doesn't get blocked behind gcc.
<pitti> ScottK: done
<ScottK> pitti: Thanks.
<ion> keybuk: http://heh.fi/tmp/mountall/
<ion> keybuk: The prioritization seems to work fine with plain ioprio_set.
<smoser> Keybuk, so right now, rc-sysinit.conf is "filesystem and net-device-up IFACE=lo"
<ion> keybuk: I wonder why mountall uses so much CPU at the end?
<smoser> in the end (maybe this works now) I want my script to be "(mounted MOUNTPOINT=/ and net-device-up IFACE=eth0)"
<smoser> but for now, i have "(local-filesystems and net-device-up IFACE=eth0)"
<Keybuk> smoser: your script will *halt* filesystem mounting and stuff until it finishes
<Keybuk> you know that, right? :p
<smoser> i want to some how say "make sure this runs before the rc-sysvinit"
<Keybuk> don't look at the rc-sysinit.conf
<Keybuk> because it's broken
<smoser> Keybuk, right. i know it will do that.
<smoser> ok, so i see that if i run early and block i will obviously run before sysvinit
<Keybuk> ion: probably parsing the fsck -C output and handing it to mountall
<smoser> but is there a way to genericlly, from one script say "i have to run before another"
<Keybuk> smoser: no
<smoser> right now i'm trying to debug, i want to insert a script that runs before anothe rone
<Keybuk> smoser: you can say "I have to run when another is started", but that's quite, quite different
<smoser> oh, i guess i can just do on starting for that
<smoser> riht
<smoser> right
<smoser> so i think on starting is sufficient for what i need right now.
<ion> keybuk: http://heh.fi/tmp/mountall/hot-host-cache.png mountallâs highest CPU usage seems to be at the end, with no apparent correlation with fscks.
<ion> keybuk: http://heh.fi/tmp/mountall/cold-host-cache.png as well
<ttx> pitti: I'll need your help to trigger a server Cd respin, whenever amd64 gets built at https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/lucid/+source/eucalyptus/1.6.2~bzr1103-0ubuntu3
<Keybuk> I don't see that here atm
<ion> keybuk: Dunno whether running under VirtualBox screws with the graphs, though.
<pitti> ttx: bumped build score for now
<ejat> anyone know how to clean/delete previous conversation in empathy ?
<pitti> ttx: please ping me when it's published, then I'll trigger a rebuild of the CD
<ttx> pitti: will do , thanks
<smoser> Keybuk, sorry to keep pestering you, but you keep answering :).  one more question.  If i want to run at "old school 'rc.local'" what would you recommend for implementing that
<Keybuk> on stopped rc RUNLEVEL=[2345]
<mathiaz> Keybuk: can you generate an upstart event with additional data? Ex: cloud-yaml-config CFGFILE=/etc/cloud/config.yaml ?
<Keybuk> yes
<mathiaz> Keybuk: so that upstart jobs that start on cloud-yaml-config would have access to CFGFILE?
<Keybuk> yes
<mathiaz> smoser: ^^
<mathiaz> Keybuk: awesome thanks
<ScottK> pitti: Would you also reduce the score on openjdk-7 from doko's toolchain PPA to ~2000 on IA64 only (for the same reason).
<smoser> mathiaz, that is good, yeah. so i think that is important to pass that from the event.
<tseliot> Keybuk:  do you get a ply_trace ("deactivating on vt change") if you enable tracing and reproduce the bug in plymouth?
<doko> ScottK: no need, will fail after unpack
<ScottK> doko: Thanks.  pitti: Nevermind.
<pitti> o
<pitti> k
<Keybuk> tseliot: haven't tried
<tseliot> Keybuk: that would be a way to see when it switches vt and maybe track down the issue
<Keybuk> problem is that all the tracing output mucks up the output ;)
<Keybuk> so you can't tell whether it's working or not
<tseliot> the tracing output go into a file
<tseliot> (in theory)
<Keybuk> yeah, there's lots of "theory" here ;)
<Keybuk> I figured out why all fscks get cancelled with plymouth running
<Keybuk> plymouth sends garbage back repeatedly when you use watch keystroke
<smoser> Keybuk, i think i read somewhere that at some point you expect 'script' section to allow for interpreters other than 'sh -e' is that correct?
<smoser> if so, how reasonable is that that that would happen in lucid
<smoser> wait, maybe its not that bad to live with out it.
<Keybuk> no, it won't happen in lucid
<Keybuk> I haven't decided it's definitely going to happen yet
<smoser> Keybuk, so you take the 'script' section put it in a file, and then 'sh -e file' ?
<smoser> is that right?
<Keybuk> no, but close enough
<tseliot> Keybuk: garbage? Maybe vt related?
<Keybuk> tseliot: I'm thinking that this whole plymouth goes on the wrong vt is our fundamental problem
<Keybuk> it'd explain why fedora don't see it (they like it on vt 1 :p)
<Keybuk> if VT7 is in KD_GRAPHICS but VT1 is in KD_TEXT
<Keybuk> and plymouth is scanning out its fb to VT1
<smoser> Keybuk, i dont understand why you wouldn't implement it. it seems like a lot of bang for a very small amoutn of buck
<Keybuk> it'd explain why fbcon scans over the top
<Keybuk> it'd explain why input is fu'd
<Keybuk> it'd explain why our X transition screws up (there's a VT switch in there <g>)
<smoser> but i guess its fairliy easy to work around at the moment:
<smoser> http://paste.ubuntu.com/344173/
<Keybuk> smoser: because, for example in that case, Upstart now needs to worry about whether /usr is mounted <g>
<smoser> upstart doesn't need to worry about that
<Keybuk> both most commonly requested "other" interpreters are on /usr
<Keybuk> upstart needs to care about them failing
<smoser> any more than it needs to worry that the users shell script is not terribly bogus
<smoser> not its job
<Keybuk> also because I think writing jobs in anything other than shell is probably wrong
<Keybuk> thinking of all the hassles of allowing maintainer scripts to be written in other languages
<Keybuk> (it'd slow down boot for a start <g>)
<smoser> Keybuk, it could also speed up boot
<Keybuk> how does starting the entire python interpreter "speed up" boot? :p
<Keybuk> python is enormous
<smoser> because bin/sh scripts will typically fork loads of times to do something that could be done in perl., python, <insert interpreter here> without forking
<smoser> and insert-interpreter-here isn't necissairly slow
<superm1> Keybuk, is there a particular reason not to switch to VT1 by default in Ubuntu though?
<Keybuk> superm1: cjwatson and slangasek don't want to :)
<robbiew_> heh
 * cjwatson doesn't want to be hunting and destroying old documentation for the rest of his life when there's no real need to
<smoser> i personally dont think that that is the right place to enforce policy of "write maintainer scripts in /bin/sh" or "write startup scripts so they are fast"
<Keybuk> smoser: noted
<smoser> thanks
<smoser> :)
<ttx> pitti: I'm about to stop for dinner and the amd64 build is still going to start in "1 minute"... will you be around this evening, and if not, could you set up a magic trigger ?
<pitti> ttx: slangasek has a magic trigger for this; slangasek, here by chance? would you mind passing your script which triggers a CD build when a particular package is published?
<ttx> pitti: steve should be around later, I'll check the build in a few hours and ask him to trigger if necessary
<ttx> pitti: worse case scenario, we'll trigger it tomorrow morning before taking coffee :)
<pitti> ttx: I'm off for dinner now, too, but I'll be around until 1930 CET
<ttx> pitti: ok
 * mpt wonders if we have a FTRFB (Fails to Run From Binary) to go with our FTBFS
<slangasek> pitti: better would be if I finally factor that trigger out into a script...
<slangasek> Keybuk: where's the evidence that bug #497299 is linked to bug #447654?  The submitter of this bug had a broken interfaces file, that's hardly related.
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 497299 in upstart "upstart not starting init-scripts (event net-device-up IFACE=lo missing)" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/497299
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 447654 in nfs-utils "init: using 'and' and 'or' operators together causes hangs" [High,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/447654
<slangasek> Keybuk: and there's no 'instance' here, so from your earlier description, this doesn't fit the and+or problem
<Keybuk> slangasek: it's still the same problem
<slangasek> how?
<Keybuk> because you block ifup from finishing until filesystems are mounted
<Keybuk> which means if you have anything requiring a network interface to mount filesystems
<Keybuk> like
<Keybuk> say
<Keybuk> NFS
<Keybuk> you're going to fuck them
<slangasek> Keybuk: ah; I don't see why you would lump that in with bug #447654, but I think that problem can (and should) be addressed by making /etc/network/if-up.d/upstart use --no-wait ?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 447654 in nfs-utils "init: using 'and' and 'or' operators together causes hangs" [High,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/447654
<Keybuk> slangasek: that would be a bug for different reasons
<Keybuk> we have things (EC2 for example) *relying* on the fact that it's not --no-wait
<slangasek> howso?
<Keybuk> how about you stop rushing to fix things in a blind panic ?
<Keybuk> I was deliberately not fixing that bug for a reason
<Keybuk> because all of the ways I could think of were worse
<slangasek> you mean the bug that was brought up as part of a session at UDS, and that you and I subsequently discussed on IRC?
<slangasek> that's "a blind panic"?
<Keybuk> yes, and I kept saying that there were bad things that could happen with it
<Keybuk> and then you uploaded a "fix" anyway
<Keybuk> you must have figured that there was _some_ reason I was holding back?
<slangasek> 08-12-2009 12:10:24 < Keybuk!n=scott@quest.netsplit.com: why not add "and net-device-up IFACE=lo" to the rc-sysinit.conf file ?
<slangasek> that doesn't look like "holding back" to me
<Keybuk> it was a suggestion for testing
<Keybuk> not a "go ahead and upload as an SRU"
<Keybuk> now I've had more than 6s to think about it, it's clearly wrong
<slangasek> how and why does EC2 rely on ifup being synchronous?
<Keybuk> slangasek: because it does
<Keybuk> and I want that net-device-up to be synchronous
<slangasek> great, thanks for the insight
<Keybuk> oh, sorry
<Keybuk> you're quite right
<Keybuk> I should drop everything I'm doing right now and explain to you how everything works
<elmo> jeez, guys, chill out
<tseliot> Keybuk: would a kernel patch to start on tty7 help (or hurt :-P )?
<Keybuk> tseliot: it's not that
<Keybuk> because the current vt looks a bit like 7
<Keybuk> it's a bit more strange
<tseliot> ?
<Keybuk> I don't know how to describe the behaviour I'm seeing
<Keybuk> because it doesn't make rational sense
<tseliot> because it keeps switching to vt1?
 * tseliot scratches head
<Keybuk> right
<Keybuk> I can watch it switch to vt7
<Keybuk> and then, it's like it gets there
<Keybuk> and all is fine
<Keybuk> but it's on vt1
<Keybuk> it's like vt7 becomes a magic portal to vt1
<Keybuk> or something
<Keybuk> very weird
<tseliot> can it be that it copies the content of vt7 to vt1 and then switches to vt1?
<Keybuk> in effect, I think that's what's happening
<Keybuk> but I think it's more at the drm/fb layer
<Keybuk> like it's on VT7, but scans out the framebuffer for vt1
<Keybuk> which the kernel lets happen
<Keybuk> (but probably shouldn't have)
<Keybuk> so the first framebuffer scan out partially switches vt
<tseliot> yes, of course I was referring to the drm stuff
<Keybuk> and then you end up in an odd situation
<Keybuk> where /dev/console is pointed at tty7
<Keybuk> but the framebuffer is being scanned out to vt1
<Keybuk> and that framebuffer is going onto the screen
<Keybuk> which means you're in KD_TEXT on that vt, not KD_GRAPHICS
<Keybuk> which is why fbcon can spam over the top
<Keybuk> and in order to start X, you need a VT switch
<Keybuk> which is why we don't get the smooth transition without scanning out to fbcon too
<Keybuk> etc.
<Keybuk> that's my best guess
<ebroder> Can I talk any ubuntu-sru types into looking at bug #497606?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 497606 in cupsys "lpstat in CUPS 1.3 can't list jobs on CUPS 1.4 servers" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/497606
<Keybuk> slangasek: right, so...
<Keybuk> you know that events in upstart have both a start and a completion, right.
<Keybuk> ?
<tseliot> Keybuk: yes, I think that's more or less what's happening. I'll have another look at the drm code
<slangasek> Keybuk: yes
<Keybuk> slangasek: everything reacts to the start of the event, so if you have lots of jobs that say "start on foo" - then they all get that kick at the same time
<Keybuk> the completion of the event doesn't happen until everything that was kicked is either started (services) or finished (tasks)
<Keybuk> completion only matters to the process that emitted the event
<slangasek> Keybuk: did you read my comment on bug #493480 before assigning it back again, or are you just playing bug pong?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 493480 in cryptsetup "[Karmic, security] Encrypted /tmp no longer mounting after upgrade to karmic" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/493480
<Keybuk> slangasek: I put it on my procmail file that reassigns bugs back to where they came from
<slangasek> Keybuk: where do I file bug reports against your buggy procmail file?
<qense> pitti: do you think that bug 229370 could be related to bug 463347 or maybe bug 469837? I reckon it probably is somewhere in devicekit-disks, but I'm not sure if it is a duplicate of an already reported bug.
<Keybuk> if it's an encrypted /tmp, it's a cryptsetup bug
<lamont> xchat srsly reads its logs 1 character per read() call??? WTF???
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 229370 in nautilus "Regression: USB removable storage devices listed in fstab no longer show in "Computer" " [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/229370
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 463347 in udev "devices not detected -- too many open files" [High,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/463347
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 469837 in devicekit-disks "[Karmic] Internal drives don't always show up in Nautilus/Places menu" [Undecided,Incomplete] https://launchpad.net/bugs/469837
<slangasek> Keybuk: read the bug.
<Keybuk> since /tmp on anything else works just fine
<qense> I do find many ancient bug reports with similar symptoms as 229370, but they were fixed in GNOME 2.14. :S
<Keybuk> there's no proof in the bug that it has anything to do with mountall
<Keybuk> now, do you want to talk about that, or why the rc-sysinit job doesn't work?
<pitti> qense: 469837 could potentially be a dupe of 463347; the fstab issue (229370) doesn't sound like a plausible duplicate
 * pitti waves goodbye
<qense> pitti: OK, in that case I'll do some further investigating. thanks!
<Keybuk> slangasek: followed up on bug #493480
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 493480 in cryptsetup "[Karmic, security] Encrypted /tmp no longer mounting after upgrade to karmic" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/493480
<Keybuk> I think that udev is told about the device before cryptsetup calls mke2fs, and cryptsetup never follows up with a change event
<ScottK> pitti: Would you please rescore kde4libs to 1900.  I need to give the other KDE packages a chance to depwait before it builds.
<ScottK> Or even lower maybe
<ebroder> What's Ubuntu's stance on 4-clause BSD licenses?
<ebroder> Can a package with one still end up in main/universe?
<cjwatson> they're free, they're just GPL-incompatible
<ebroder> Ok. Do you need an explicit ACK for syncing a new package non-free -> universe, or will it just happen eventually?
<slangasek> ebroder: er, Debian's stance of 4-clause BSD isn't different; why is the package in non-free?
<ebroder> Yeah, I just realized that. -> back to the copyright file
<ebroder> http://tinyurl.com/yznfcrz if anybody else wants to help me search :)
<ebroder> Oh - I see. There's some stuff that doesn't have a license specified
<ebroder> multiverse it is, I think
<cjwatson> and to answer your question, non-free -> multiverse by default
<ScottK> pitti: Nevermind (FTBFS anyway)
<stgraber> hey, I'm just wondering, in the hal-less world, how does one get an equivalent of lshal (as in, get every piece of detected hardware for parsing purpose) or hal-get-property (for example to know the main video controler) ?
<stgraber> I'm currently transitioning LTSP out of hal but have some scripts here and there that'd need porting
<stgraber> (also, I've been using lshal to store hardware inventory in a standard/parsable way, I'd love to replace that with something offering similar information)
<ttx> slangasek: could you trigger a server ISO respin ?
<slangasek> ttx: server?
<ttx> slangasek: yes
<slangasek> ttx: running
<ttx> slangasek: thx!
<slangasek> ttx: done
<slangasek> james_w: ping?
<james_w> hi slangasek
<slangasek> james_w: hi - were you doing syncs today?  There seems to be a lot of stuff not flushed yet from the queue, and I'm not sure what its status is
<james_w> ah
<james_w> forgot --flush-syncs
<james_w> thanks
<slangasek> james_w: ok, cheers :)
<kees> are two people doing archive admin work?  I just got rejects for stuff that accepted already?
<james_w> the flush seemed to reject all the packages, I'm not sure why
<hrocha> hi, i don't know if you can help me with this but i'll try to explain the problem
<Keybuk> james_w: around?
<Keybuk> lp:ubuntu/ureadahead got deleted! :(
<hrocha> i'm trying to install lucid but it fails with a (gksudo:17942): GLib-CRITICAL **: g_str_has_prefix: assertion `str != NULL' failed
<james_w> Keybuk: huh?
<Keybuk> james_w: it's gone!
<Keybuk> lp doesn't show it anymore
<hrocha> that happens when i click the "install" button on the last step of ubiquity
<james_w> oh
<Keybuk> and it was the branch I'd pushed everything to
<lifeless> 8 hour i386 build queue :(
<cjwatson> hrocha: should be more detail in /var/log/syslog and /var/log/installer/debug
<lifeless> Keybuk: I saw the same
<hrocha> cjwatson, perfect, thanks, i'll check it out
<lifeless> bah. s/keybuk/kees/
<cjwatson> hrocha: I'm interested in debugging it
<hrocha> cjwatson, me too =)
<james_w> Keybuk: it may have been a package that had a bug in the import, so I replaced it
<Keybuk> james_w: but there's no branch there at all
<Keybuk> and I don't have the history anywhere else!
<hrocha> cjwatson, i think the problem is with calling gksudo with no password
<hrocha> because if i run gksudo and just press enter it aborts with the same assertion failure
<cjwatson> hrocha: I very much doubt it; if the problem were to do with gksudo, it would fail much earlier
<cjwatson> hrocha: I think that's likely to be a red herring
<kees> lifeless: rhm?
<Keybuk> james_w: the branch that was there wasn't an "importer" branch
<Keybuk> it was one I push --overwrite'd
<Keybuk> like you said to
<hrocha> but the assertion of ubiquity says "gksudo"
<james_w> really?
<Keybuk> really!
<Keybuk> I don't suppose there's a backup anywhere?
<cjwatson> hrocha: like I say, that's probably a red herring. /var/log/syslog and /var/log/installer/debug should have the real error(s)
<hrocha> cjwatson, ok, let me help you
<lifeless> kees: rejects and acceps for the same thing
<kees> lifeless: ah! okay.  I wasn't sure which context I needed to have loaded.  :)
<lifeless> Keybuk: if the branch object is still around, we can use heads to recover the tip
<james_w> Keybuk: I can't find one on jubany
<lifeless> Keybuk: if the branch has been deleted its probably still on disk for a losa to recover
<Keybuk> whew, I found a working copy!
<hrocha> cjwatson, from syslog
<hrocha> Dec 21 23:18:38 ubuntu ubiquity[26273]: progress_loop()
<hrocha> Dec 21 23:18:39 ubuntu kernel: [ 3005.357755] ubiquity[26273]: segfault at 7fe72f7bc840 ip 00007fe743db7ef4 sp 00007fff83232780 error 4 in libglib-2.0.so.0.2300.0[7fe743d79000+c6000]
<cjwatson> hrocha: could you put the whole files (both syslog and debug) on paste.ubuntu.com, please?
<cjwatson> I'm not going to debug fragments :)
<hrocha> ok
<hrocha> cjwatson, http://paste.ubuntu.com/344369/ (for syslog)
<hrocha> cjwatson, http://paste.ubuntu.com/344370/ (installer/debug)
<cjwatson> hmm
<cjwatson> I'm almost inclined to say this is a glib2.0 bug
<cjwatson> I don't suppose it wrote a crash report to /var/crash?
<cjwatson> the segfault is in libglib-2.0.so.0, but there's no traceback here
<hrocha> cjwatson, yes, there is a trace there
<cjwatson> can you use ubuntu-bug (or the crash icon in the panel, if you have one) to report it, please?
<cjwatson> that's the best way to get us all the information in a convenient form
<hrocha> ok, i'll use ubuntu-bug because i don't have the crash icon
<hrocha> cjwatson, ubuntu-bug is says that i should report a PID
<hrocha> cjwatson, if the process died, there is no pid
<cjwatson> it also allows passing a .crash file
<cjwatson> Usage: /usr/bin/ubuntu-bug <pid>|<symptom name>|<package name>|<program path>|<.crash file>
<hrocha> cjwatson, bug reported
<hrocha> cjwatson, i'll wait for the bug to be fixed to continue helping you with lucid
<cjwatson> hrocha: thanks
<hrocha> cjwatson, i thank you also for all the work all team members have been doing since ubuntu 4.10
<cjwatson> hrocha: what's the bug number?
<hrocha> #499272
<smiter> <--beathing his head against the wall dealing with install of 9.10 black screen
<smiter> *beathing lol
<smiter> beating
<smiter> can anyone here give a little advice on how to attack this?
<ion> Try disabling KMS. What GPU do you have?
<smiter> <--absolut beginning with ubuntu... havent programmed in over 30 years..
<smiter> Gnome maybe?
<ion> What graphics adapter? ATI? nVidia? Intel?
<smiter> ati
<smiter> radeon 9200 vid card
<smiter> rv 280 i believe
<smiter> i read 9200 were having a problem on 9.10 so i tried to install 9.04  same problem.. now loading 8.10 same problem.. ubuntu is running.. the screen goes black when starting up the prog
<smiter> i can hear the jungle drums running so i know its up and running, just have a totally black screen
<ion> Oh, then itâs not a KMS issue.
<ion> Whatâs the last visible thing when booting?
<smiter> the program installs.. i just cant see it lol
<smiter> umm the ubuntu loading screen
#ubuntu-devel 2009-12-22
<hrocha> merry christmas, bye
<smiter> running 8.10 now spash screen comes up.. bar moves see a bunch of test on starting then screen goes blank. and i hear the drums
<smiter> *text
<funkyHat> I want to file a bug against the gnome shutdown thingy (the countdown timer or something), which package is that?
<funkyHat> It's a feature suggestion, I think that if someone clicks on shutdown on the session indicator and then closes the lid of the laptop the system should shutdown, not (insert closing lid action)
<funkyHat> Now that I think about it I'm guessing it's the session indicator...
<chrisccoulson> funkyHat - yes, that's the session indicator, but it's more complicated than that
<chrisccoulson> the session indicator has no way of knowing if your lid is closed
<funkyHat> Yes I imagined that would be the case
<funkyHat> I still think it's a valid bug though
<chrisccoulson> yes, but i don't know which package it should go against
<chrisccoulson> the changes required in the session indicator to do that would be non-trivial
<funkyHat> Do you know which package the session indicator is in?
<chrisccoulson> indicator-session?
<chrisccoulson> that would be my guess :)
<funkyHat> Ah, thanks :)
<funkyHat> I suppose it could inhibit gdm and poll for a laptop lid status somehow
<funkyHat> I don't know the ins and outs of it but it doesn't seem that complex. Unless inhibiting only applies to shutting down, not suspending
<chrisccoulson> inhibiting and checking the status of the lid button are 2 completely different concepts though
<chrisccoulson> and gdm has nothing to do with laptop lids either
<chrisccoulson> thats gnome-power-manager
<funkyHat> That's what I meant :)
<funkyHat> I don't see why inhibiting and checking lid status need to be related concepts
<chrisccoulson> they're not, but i got the impression that you thought they were
<crimsun> I'm a bit perplexed why I received the e-mail for the sync request and an immediately subsequent rejection
<funkyHat> Ah, no I just figured those were the two things that would need to be done to achieve this
<chrisccoulson> anyway, it should be opened against indicator-session for now. indicator-session would need to get the lid button info from dk-power
<crimsun> [ubuntu/lucid] haskell-src-exts 1.3.0-1 (Accepted) ... haskell-src-exts_1.3.0-1_source.changes rejected
<funkyHat> Oh here it's already filed. bug 462318
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 462318 in indicator-session "New action when pressing "Shutdown" and closing the laptop screen " [Wishlist,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/462318
<funkyHat> Thanks chrisccoulson
<Laney> crimsun: 21/12 23:06:33 <james_w> the flush seemed to reject all the packages, I'm not sure why
<Laney> don't know where that leaves such packages
<crimsun> Laney: thanks
<james_w> on the ftpmaster
<james_w> didn't you get an accept as well?
<james_w> oh, yeah
<james_w> it seems like it tried to accept twice
<Laney> crimsun: heading towards new xmonad?
<crimsun> Laney: would be nice but is fairly low on my priority list; feel free
<chrisccoulson> siretart` - i have gnome-screensaver inhibiting working with VLC again \o/
<Laney> good stuff. I wrote some UDD queries to get the state of the union earlier
<Laney> good god, I haven't uploaded anything in almost a month
<Laney> bad me
<chrisccoulson> Laney - yes, bad you - you must be slacking :P
<stgraber> hmm, looks like latest initramfs-tools and that mountall upload broke a lot of things (as in, not being able to debootstrap ;)). initramfs-tools conflicts with current mountall and the new mountall is stuck in depwait due to libplymouth-dev being in universe
<stgraber> I guess I'll have to wait till tomorrow to get my LTSP server working ;)
 * slangasek promotes plymouth to main
<stgraber> oh, ok, that'll will the issue of course ;)
<UnixDawg> hey guys
<UnixDawg> having a issue with apache2 pkg on 9.10
<UnixDawg> it installed a blank httpd.conf
<slangasek> UnixDawg: that's expected behavior; please see #ubuntu for support
 * StevenK blinks at how the base system is no longer debootstrapable
<slangasek> I believe that should be fixed with the latest mountall build
<slangasek> scream if it's not
<slangasek> (mountall 2.0)
<StevenK> My debootstrap a little while ago was still pulling down 1.1
<LucidFox> Hmm, not sure if my question went through before the disconnection, so...
<LucidFox> Is the 3.0 quilt format enabled in Ubuntu yet?
<fabrice_sp> LucidFox, yes. Since a couple of  days
<LucidFox> Whee!
<LucidFox> Time to migrate my packages.
<hyperair> what are the changes required to make a package use the 3.0 quilt format?
<fabrice_sp> hyperair, http://wiki.debian.org/Projects/DebSrc3.0
<dholbach> good morning
<mvo> hey dholbach!
<dholbach> hey mvo
<LucidFox> Wmm, what about orig.tar.bz2? Is it supported now?
<slangasek> part and parcel of v3, yes
<pitti> Good morning
<pitti> ScottK: rescore> sorry, was off for the night; still need any rescoring?
<pitti> yay 3.0 source support \o/
<hyperair> has anyone succeeded in using git-buildpackage with pristine-tar and multiple orig tarballs?
<LucidFox> <slangasek> part and parcel of v3, yes
<LucidFox> And lzma? It's disabled in Debian, as I read, but what about Ubuntu?
<ttx> pitti: could you bump build score on https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/eucalyptus/1.6.2~bzr1103-0ubuntu4/+build/1410724 so that it has a chance to make it on the daily CD run ?
<pitti> ttx: done
<ttx> anyone knows why the amd64 builders are so crowded ?
<ttx> pitti: thx!
<mneptok> ttx: i blame Freemasonry
<ttx> pitti: yesterday the build started around 10:30pm CET
<ttx> mneptok: that always works.
<slangasek> mneptok: that's Openmasonry to you
 * mneptok gives slangasek the secret handshake
<StevenK> slangasek: Okay, verified that mountall 2.0 fixes the base system, thanks.
<LucidFox> Could an archive admin retry this build? https://edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/qt4-x11/4:4.6.0-1ubuntu5/+build/1407295
<LucidFox> I wonder why ld of all things segfaulted, though.
<StevenK> LucidFox: You don't need to be an archive admin, just a core-dev
<LucidFox> Ah.
<slangasek> and that build shouldn't be retried
<StevenK> Yeah, I didn't think so either, reading the log
<slangasek> it's a known problem; someone who speaks qmake needs to figure out how to disable -Wl,--gc-sections on powerpc
<StevenK> slangasek: Wow, --gc-sections causes ld to SEGV on ppc?
<slangasek> StevenK: bug #498631
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 498631 in binutils "ld segfaults with --gc-sections on powerpc" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/498631
<StevenK> slangasek: Ouch
<LucidFox> Why does Qt try to build with -Wl,--gc-sections in the first place?
<LucidFox> It's not standard qmake behavior, so upstream must have specifically enabled this.
<StevenK> LucidFox: It probably is because upstream told it to do so.
 * LucidFox apt-get sources
<mok0> pull-lp-source
<Mamarok> cjwatson: hi, any news on that glibc backport we talked about?
<bigon> hi, dois the ubuntu archive support the 3.0 version of debian pkg with bz2 compression?
<bigon> does*
<LucidFox> bigon> Yes
<LucidFox> Now it does
<LucidFox> REVU doesn't support the 3.0 format, though. :/
<LucidFox> Well, it uploads, but can't unpack.
<bigon> LucidFox: thx
<geser> ttx: thanks for this quick review
<ttx> geser: no pb, it was a pleasure :)
<geser> anyone interested in sponsoring a perl merge (bug #496556)? (sorry, it can't be currently merged with bzr)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 496556 in perl "Merge perl 5.10.1-8 from Debian testing" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/496556
<ttx> pitti: 1.6.2~bzr1103-0ubuntu4 was published too late for the server ISO daily run to pick it up... i'll need a respin :/
<pitti> ttx: no problem, they are cheap to build
<ttx> pitti: cool then. btw if it's also cheap to give me power to trigger respin, then I'd stop bothering the release team for that
<mr_pouit> is there an easy way to obtain x backtraces? here, x is crashing horribly because of xsplash, but no core is generated (Process 3029(Xorg) has RLIMIT_CORE set to 0)â¦
<pitti> that requires an RT at least (you need a cdimage ssh accunt and some group permissions)
<pitti> but it's not that much work, don't worry
<pitti> yesterday's X should have enabled apport again
<pitti> but the current kernel doesn't work with apport right now
<pitti> due to bug 498525
<pitti> and I don't know a good way how to circumvent this
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 498525 in linux "[lucid] breaks apport: core dumps get aborted even if core_pattern is a pipe" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/498525
<ttx> pitti: it's not so much the work, it's more about the interrupt :) But OK, I'll keep bothering one of you guys :)
<ttx> pitti: you already restarted it ?
<pitti> ttx: ah, can do now (didn't interpret it as "please do now")
<ttx> pitti: that's why I doublecheck :)
<pitti> running
<pitti> ETA 10 mins
<ttx> pitti: thanks !
<pitti> ttx: done
<ttx> pitti: ok
<mathiaz> ttx: how functional is the latest eucalyptus?
<mathiaz> ttx: is it worth testing it?
<directhex> hm, let's get this over with, then
<directhex> which archive admins are about on his fine morn?
<directhex> well, it's gone noon, but you get the idea
<jpds> directhex: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ArchiveAdministration#Archive%20days
<directhex> jpds, i'm more soliciting opinion than asking for action to be taken, so i didn't really think the day's hat-wearer mattered much
<ttx> mathiaz: good question. The current daily (20091222.1) should start alright, I've yet to try to run an instance, though :)
<ttx> mathiaz: you should have a more precise answer in 30 minutes
 * Laney sprays directhex with asbestos
<mathiaz> ttx: I'm actually testing from packages, rather than from iso
<directhex> Laney, mmm cancerous fibres!
<ttx> mathiaz: ok
<mathiaz> ttx: have you also noticed issues in trying to restart eucalyptus-cloud?
<mathiaz> ttx: starting eucalyptus-cloud is already slow
<mathiaz> ttx: restart eucalyptus-cloud doesn't always work
<ttx> mathiaz: yes, sometimes a process is left around
<ttx> mathiaz: I hit that a few times
<LucidFox> Heh, http://www.kdedevelopers.org/node/2736 has a perfect metaphor for grumbles about autotools to cmake migration.
<LucidFox> "Them new shiny tools you are using ain't looking like my trusty old sledgehammer!"
<Riddell> LucidFox: except the point of the blog is that sentence isn't true
<LucidFox> I never claimed it was. I hate autohell.
<LucidFox> I just don't like autotools adherents who are wary of cmake just because it's different.
<Riddell> it always amazes me that there are people who still use it
<directhex> LucidFox, there's a reason for en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autohell
<LucidFox> Yesterday, I wrote a fully feature-equal cmake replacement for gtkpod's build system, and committed it to git master. While one of the other developers argued for it, the reaction of the other one was, "Is it really worth it? What does it do better except Windows builds, which I don't care about anyway?"
<LucidFox> So I wrote a long email explaining it. Think I should reproduce it on Planet Ubuntu.
<siretart`> slangasek: since you are the last one who has touched cryptsetup: I've did a testinstall with today's alternate install daily with encrypted lvm. I ended up with an bootable system, but /boot does not contain any kernels, but /boot/grub
<siretart`> slangasek: now I'm seriously confused what's going on here. how did that setup managed to work? and is this an installer or cryptsetup problem?
<siretart`> s/work/boot/
<siretart`> slangasek: oh, mystery solved. /boot was not mounted, and the root filesystem contains /boot/grub that is shadowed by the /boot mount
<siretart`> still, not mounting /boot during startup seems pretty critical to me.. hmm.
<ion> Get:35 http://fi.archive.ubuntu.com lucid/universe nexuiz-textures 2.5.2-3 [521MB]
<ion> apt-sync would be nice right about here, especially since itâs just a packaging change. :-)
<siretart`> ion: I think you've just found the largest package in the archive :-)
<siretart`> hm. the missing /boot does not seem to be even deterministic. the 2nd boot went just fine... hmm
<Chipzz> LucidFox: I very very very much doubt cmake gets all the cornercases right which autotools do get right
<Chipzz> and quite frankly, replacing the build system of a project you don't own is IMO highly inappropriate
<pitti> cjwatson, mdz, kees:
<pitti> cjwatson, mdz, kees: will you be at the DMB? I'm afraid with the holiday season we won't have quorum today, so we might just skip this one
<pitti> tseliot: are you here today?
<tseliot> pitti: sure, I'm here
<pitti> (your core-dev app is the only topic anyway)
<mdz> pitti, I have another meeting at the same time, but I think it is unlikely to make quorum, so I expect to be able to join DMB a bit late
<tseliot> oh
<mdz> pitti, the other topic is the upcoming election, but I sent an email update to the list already
<pitti> right, I noted that down as an "in progress" action point on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DeveloperMembershipBoard/Agenda
<pitti> mdz: hm, is quorum == or > (number_of_team_members/2) ?
<pitti> IOW, do we need 3 or 4 people?
<mdz> pitti, 3 is sufficient IMO
<pitti> mdz: I'll just wait for you and kees then
<lamont> why does network mangler hate my eth0?
<ScottK> pitti: If you get a quorum would you discuss the per-package uploader question please (for kubuntu-dev)
<pitti> ScottK: please see my email response; I think it's already handled now, and in the unlikely event that some other DMB member objects, they can followup by mail
<ScottK> pitti: OK.  Thanks.
<pitti> ScottK: I updated the wiki page accordingly, so in the future we can just apply the privs for kubuntu-dev approved per-package uploaders
<pitti> (it was really just a process inconsistency)
<ScottK> pitti: OK.  Sounds good.
<tseliot> pitti: maybe Keybuk can join the DMB meeting?
<tseliot> Keybuk: how can I reproduce the plymouth bug (other than on boot)? What shall I do after I kill gdm and X?
<Keybuk> tseliot: you can just stop gdm, then start plymouth from tty1
<Keybuk> you'll note that Alt+F7 and Alt+F1 don't do what you'd expect
<mathiaz> pitti: isn't hald supposed to go away in lucid?
<Keybuk> though I debugged it with upstream late last night
<Keybuk> and we worked out it
<pitti> mathiaz: yes, mostly; it's currently not installed by default
<tseliot> Keybuk: what did you find out?
<Keybuk> tseliot: plymouth uses /dev/tty0 rather than /dev/tty7 to do most of its setup
<Keybuk> (KD_GRAPHICS, VT_PROCESS, etc.)
<Keybuk> but doesn't wait for the VT switch
<tseliot> right, I noticed that
<mathiaz> pitti: hm ok. The lucid UEC image has a bunch of hald-related processes around
<tseliot> no?
<Keybuk> so it ends up in a screwy situation
<mathiaz> pitti: http://paste.ubuntu.com/344753/ <- these are supposed to go away in lucid right?
<pitti> mathiaz: maybe it was an upgrade from a very early lucid snapshot?
<tseliot> Keybuk: are you saying that it should use VT_WAITACTIVE instead?
<stgraber> Keybuk: Is it possible something in the new mountall breaks LTSP boot ?
<Keybuk> tseliot: a lot of things need to change
<mathiaz> pitti: I don't think so - they're generated daily with vmbuilder
<tseliot> to:-/
<Keybuk> tseliot: needs to use the terminal decide rather than the console device for the setup
<pitti> mathiaz: is that a server or desktop install?
<Keybuk> needs to wait for the vt to be active
<Keybuk> the drm renderer needs to not default to is_active = TRUE :p
<mathiaz> pitti: server. ha - it's required by landscape-client
<pitti> mathiaz: right, I discussed that with the landscape guys at UDS
<mathiaz> pitti: http://paste.ubuntu.com/344757/
<tseliot> Keybuk: are you or upstream going to work on it?
<pitti> it's not used for any automatic data collection right now, just to have it
<pitti> mathiaz: so it can effortlessly be replaced by an udev dump and DMI data
<Keybuk> tseliot: I think halflife is going to do it
<Keybuk> halfline even
<mathiaz> pitti: ok - so the landscape knows what needs to be done
<tseliot> Keybuk: yes, halflife is a game ;)
<Keybuk> tseliot: http://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=25749
<ubottu> Freedesktop bug 25749 in plymouth general "plymouth doesn't work well when run from another vt" [Normal,New]
<tseliot> Keybuk: it's good to see that finally we know what's going on
<Keybuk> tseliot: a quick fix would obviously be just to run plymouth and X on tty1 :p
<pitti> oh,  I'd love to kill that hackish gdm patch to run X on vt7
<Keybuk> pitti: we're actually not using it
<Keybuk> well, sorry
<Keybuk> we're using it if you don't have plymouth
<Keybuk> which I guess is the default right now <g>
<Keybuk> but when you do have plymouth we're using a different patch
<Keybuk> which starts X "on the current vt"
<tseliot> Keybuk: maybe we could use a spambot who can change the documentation regular expressiond and tell everyone not to to use ctrl+alt+f1 anymore to get to the command line :-P
<tseliot> expressions
<tseliot> Keybuk: and the current vt happens to be vt7 right?
<Keybuk> tseliot: well, ish ;)
<tseliot> ok, let's not be too specific: tty0
<tseliot> ;)
<Keybuk> lol
<stgraber> Keybuk: for mountall weirdness debugging (as in LTSP), you still need: mountall --debug ?
<Keybuk> yes
<stgraber> Keybuk: http://pastebin.com/f1aabfe37
<stgraber> Keybuk: line 311 might be interesting btw
<Keybuk> stgraber: don't suppose you can install the previous mountall on there and get me --debug output to compare?
<ion> How nice, the apt update broke aptitude. :-)
<stgraber> Keybuk: btw, I just started with mountall as --debug (but still in daemon and called by upstart), I now get that "Assertion failed" at the end and then "mountall main process (390) killed by ABRT signal"
<stgraber> and I'm stuck there
<stgraber> I'll get the old mountall from LP and install it, won't be long
<ttx> cjwatson: about usb network adapters support in installer, again -- Apparently most hardware now uses the asix minimodule. The ones I bought for UEC testing are "0b95:1780 ASIX Electronics Corp. AX88178" and don't appear to be supported right now
<ttx> cjwatson: do you think it's an option to also support the asix minimodule ?
<Keybuk> ttx: I suspect cjwatson is deep into the early christmas cheer, and you'll have more luck next year :p
<ttx> bah
<ttx> Keybuk: thanks for the tip
<tseliot> :-)
<stgraber> Keybuk: http://pastebin.com/f7949c1a9
<ttx> that must be what they all call "holidays"
<Keybuk> stgraber: great! *hauls our mentaldiff*
<Keybuk> stgraber: oh, that's interesting
<hifi> aptitude broke down, apt-get works: http://pastey.net/130533-1p4p
<stgraber> Keybuk: btw, I just had to revert initramfs-tools too as otherwise it'd still hang even with the older mountall
<ara> tseliot, felicitazioni!
<tseliot> ara: grazie :-)
<pitti> Riddell: if you accept approved SRUs, can you please use sru-accept.py from ubuntu-archive-tools? If you use the queuediff tool (also there), this will spit out the exact command line for this, too (package name, bug #s, etc.)
<pitti> sru-accept.py takes care of the tags, subscriptions, and the call for testing with some useful links
<Riddell> pitti: can do, I don't think I knew about that, is it on ArchiveAdministration?
<pitti> Riddell: no, it's not right now (it's not a general archive admin task)
<LaserJock> persia: ping
 * ScottK waves to LaserJock
<LaserJock> hi ScottK
<persia> LaserJock: ?
<ScottK> pitti: I didn't know about queuediff giving you the sru-accept command.  That's nice.
<LaserJock> persia: just reading the DMB email, there was an item (I think yours) about naming for the specialist teams
<LaserJock> persia: in the email it says also MOTU, but is MOTU considered a specialist team now?
<persia> LaserJock: Well, except that "specialist" and "MOTU" don't quite match for most sane semantic matrices.
<persia> So it was suggested to use "Ubuntu Developer (delegated teams)" to cover both cases.
<persia> Err, "Ubuntu Developer (from delegated team)".  Oops.
<Keybuk> stgraber: still about?
<LaserJock> persia: why is the distinction needed?
<LaserJock> just plain Ubuntu Developer doesn't work?
<persia> Because there are also other classes of "Ubuntu Developer", like "per-package uploader", "contributing developer", "prospective developer".
<persia> It doesn't actually mean much outside the context of the version of the page I'm drafting :)
 * persia will try to pubish RSN, to reduce overall confusion
<LaserJock> ok
<LaserJock> I just wondered if MOTU was considered a specialist team
<persia> I certainly don't think that makes sense, which is part of why I asked the question.
<LaserJock> since that seems like the opposite of my understanding of the meaning
<persia> Indeed :)
<dmb> i see i'm very popular here
<persia> dmb: Overlap with "Developer Membership Board"
<dmb> :P
<dmb> i still think i'm quite popular :)
 * Keybuk remembers when we had someone on the channel called "spec" :)
<ttx> pitti: before leaving, could you trigger a server ISO respin ?
<ttx> or slangasek ^
<maco> asac: is NM still expected to not-manage any interfaces that are configured in /etc/network/interfaces?
<asac> maco: yes
<RoAkSoAx> Keybuk, i was wondering how out-of-date is the merges.ubuntu.com/universe.html is?
<asac> maco: if you run it with managed=false  that is
<asac> in /etc/NetworkManager/nm-system-settings.conf
<maco> asac: so its not *just* dependent upon the interfaces file, then?
<asac> maco: not sure what you mean
<asac> if you have an iface configured in interfaces ... and have NM in managed=false mode
<asac> then its not managed
<maco> asac: ok then i had it wrong :)
<maco> thanks
<asac> maco: managed=true is good :)
<asac> if it has bugs, file them ;)
<asac> and yes, odd stuff isnt supported yet.
<maco> nah, i thought i only had to change the interfaces file to change whether nm would let me ifup or not
<Keybuk> RoAkSoAx: weeks
<maco> asac: well wstephenson says i should show you line 11 of http://paste.ubuntu.com/344828/
<ttx> RoAkSoAx: it's an evil plan to move everyone to bzr merge-package
<maco> asac: trying to figure out why knm thinks a connection that worked fine before is now an invalid connection
<asac> maco: how does interfaces look like (remove the password)
<RoAkSoAx> Keybuk, is it going to be updated anytime soon?
<asac> maco: Dec 20 16:52:40 betty NetworkManager:    SCPluginIfupdown: management mode: unmanaged
<asac> so you hvae managed=false
<Keybuk> RoAkSoAx: no
<RoAkSoAx> Keybuk, ok thanks :) bzr merge-package it is then :)
<Keybuk> (MoM is having major issues with v3 format Debian source packages
<Keybuk>  particuarly those that use quilt
<Keybuk>  and nobody has any time to work on it)
<maco> asac: ok. ooooooo wait now i think i get what youre saying. if that is managed=true THEN "is it configured in /etc/network/interfaces?" becomes relevant, but if its false, then itll *always* manage the devices?
<asac> maco: almost correct ;) ...
<asac> if managed=false -> any iface mentioned in interfaces is blacklisted, e.g. not managed
<maco> ok thats not what its doing
<asac> if managed=true -> configuration is parsed from interfaces and used as a system connection
<asac> maco: i need to see the interfaces.
<maco> managed=false but its still managing wlan0 such that i cannot ifup until i stop network-manager
<asac> could be its choking because it has bad formatted parts or something
<maco> does it dislike comments?
<asac> maybe
<asac> could be a bug
<highvoltage> Keybuk: are there any bugs filed?
<Keybuk> highvoltage: how would that help?
<asac> maco: play around. it should support wpa-supplicant configs quite well ...
<asac> or paste your interfaces ;)
<maco> how about i email you my interfaces? :P
<asac> maco: i guess you dont have key-mgmt
<asac> ?
<asac> or do you have that?
<maco> i dont know what key-mgmt is, so im gonna guess no
<asac> heh
<asac> maco: try to add wpa-key-mgmt WPA-PSK
<maco> where?
<asac> maco: you have a wpa-psk line? and a wpa-ssid?
<maco> yes
<asac> just below one of those
<asac> or above ;)
<highvoltage> Keybuk: just interested to see what the issues are
<Keybuk> highvoltage: I don't know what the issues are
<Keybuk> not having time to work on it includes not having time to investigate
<highvoltage> ouch
<asac> maco: so now it works? ;)
<maco> lemme restart nm and see what happens
<asac> yeah. the error should go away
<LaserJock> Keybuk: was the status of MoM announced on -devel or -devel-announce at some point?
<asac> its arguably a bug that the blacklisting fails if the config is not complete enough
<Keybuk> LaserJock: probably not
<LaserJock> I've been pointing people to MoM when they ask about how to help with merges :(
<maco> asac: yep, that works. i can ifup without killing nm now
<Keybuk> LaserJock: you should have been pointing them to james_w's work
<mpt> rmcbride, are you intending to use the "metadata" tag for other Ubuntu One bug reports?
<Keybuk> bzr merge-package is much easier
<rmcbride> mpt: we had been using it to track issues where we felt that metadata corruption or versioning might be an issue. Is this a problem?
<LaserJock> well, i don't know how to use james_w's stuff yet so I wasn't going to put it on others
<mpt> rmcbride, I ask because I was using it for package metadata problems: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bugs?field.tag=metadata
<ScottK> Keybuk: We'd need an associated list of things needing merging too.
<LaserJock> I *thought* MoM was the "official" source for merging
<rmcbride> mpt: OK. We can discontinue using it for that purpose. Perhaps u1meta or something. I'll bring it up to the team and get a concensus for a different tag
<Keybuk> LaserJock: how to use it *has* been sent to -devel or -devel-announce ;)
<mpt> rmcbride, thank you, and sorry for the bother
<rmcbride> mpt: no bother at all.
<Keybuk> ScottK: such a thing should be based on the bzr imports though
<Keybuk> basically it's a "for PACKAGE in *; do bzr missing" no ?
<asac> maco: maybe file a bug ;) "blacklisting of ifupdown interfaces with incomplete config broken" ...
<maco> :P
<maco> sorry!
<LaserJock> Keybuk: right, there was some info that I could never get to work
<maco> thanks for the help
<asac> maco: you can even switch to managed=true ;)
<asac> and then NM honours those settings
<LaserJock> Keybuk: but perhaps the TB should make some announcement or something if MoM is going to be official deprecated
<Keybuk> LaserJock: what has the TB got to do with anything?
<LaserJock> well, I just assumed that they would be a good body to say "heah, we're not going to use MoM anymore"
<asac> maco: enjoy
<maco> asac: am a bit confused as to why wpa-key-mgmt doesnt appear in the interfaces or wpa_supplicant manpages
<ScottK> Keybuk: Certainly a list should be based on the bzr imports, but in order to switch to this work flow, we'd need that.
<ScottK> It's a bit undiscoverable otherwise.
<Keybuk> bzr co lp:ubuntu/$PKG; cd $PKG; bzr missing --theirs-only lp:debian/$PKG
<Keybuk> ;)
<Keybuk> ScottK: so get to it! :p
<Keybuk> LaserJock: the TB never said to use MoM in the first place
<asac> maco: not sure if the man pages show any config. checkout /usr/share/doc/wpasupplicant/README.modes.gz
<ScottK> Keybuk: I certainly don't have enough familiarity with the new tools to work it out.
<LaserJock> I suppose, but it's definately become the canonical source for merges
<maco> asac: ok thanks
<asac> maco: i think its arguably a bug in NM to require it. its guessable from the wpa-psk setting (so is kind of redundant)
<Keybuk> LaserJock: feel free to help fix MoM if you like it :p
<LaserJock> it's less than helpful when something like merges.ubuntu.com just becomes unreliable
<asac> maco: so even a second bug here ;)
<LaserJock> I personally don't care too much about MoM itself, I rarely used it
<LaserJock> but I think it's helpful to be able to point people to merges.ubuntu.com and have it be reliable
<maco> asac: what im getting is "i owe asac a beer next uds for annoying him with pebkac"
<Keybuk> LaserJock: if you think that's useful, help make it reliable
<asac> hehe. beer is always good ;)
<asac> thx
<LaserJock> Keybuk: I have no access to merges.ubuntu.com
<ScottK> LaserJock: Sounds like we're back to the rationale for DaD
<Keybuk> LaserJock: you don't need it, you have the source code
<LaserJock> and I generally think it's the responsibility of the people who put up merges.ubuntu.com to maintain it
<Keybuk> that would be me
<Keybuk> and I've been trying to get someone else to maintain it for the best part of five years
<Keybuk> and since nobody else wants to
<Keybuk> and since I no longer have any time to do it myself
<Keybuk> that's why it's fallen over
<LaserJock> so maybe you should talk to your boss about it?
<Keybuk> what makes you think I haven't? :)
<ScottK> Keybuk: Does anyone else have rights to commit updates to the public site for m.u.c?
<asac> first you need updates. deploying them doesnt feel like a blocker
<Keybuk> ScottK: ubuntu-core-dev iirc
<LaserJock> I mean, I don't care if you put up docs on using bzr or whatever
<LaserJock> I just think it's difficult if tools people rely on become unreliable without any real notice or replacement
<Keybuk> LaserJock: UDD is the future of this stuff
<Keybuk> we've been pushing everyone to use that this cycle
<ion> keybuk: It might be a good idea to put a huge banner saying âiâm broken kthxbyeâ to merges.ubuntu.com.
<LaserJock> future sure
<Keybuk> ion: I did, people whinged
<LaserJock> but as ScottK points out
<Keybuk> (in fact, I simply took it down)
<LaserJock> we don't have a list of what to merge
<Keybuk> SO WRITE ONE
<Keybuk> sheesh
<LaserJock> why would I?
<Keybuk> because you seem to be upset about the lack of ione
<elmo> LaserJock: why should Scott?
<LaserJock> elmo: because he was maintaining merges.ubuntu.com
<Keybuk> so?
<elmo> LaserJock: and therefore he's obligated to evermore?
<Keybuk> that doesn't mean I have anything to do with UDD
<LaserJock> elmo: no, but he *is* obligated to make sure something gets handed over or something
<elmo> LaserJock: no, he's not
<elmo> LaserJock: unless you're signing his pay cheque I mean.  he ran a service.  he no longer has time to run the service.  if that bothers you, step up and help get it fixed
<elmo> don't try and bully him into doing something about it
<LaserJock> so people can just drop core services without notice or replacement and expect everybody else to pick up the pieces?
<Keybuk> yesx
<Keybuk> that's basically the open source way ;)
<elmo> LaserJock: yes.  it's called being a volunteer
<Keybuk> when one maintainer has no longer got any time, he abandons the projetc
<Keybuk> but it was open source
<Keybuk> so another maintainer can step up if they care about it
<Keybuk> projects that nobody cares about die, but that's ok too
<LaserJock> elmo: no, that's being a jerk to the people who relied on that service
<elmo> LaserJock: sorry, but I think you're the one being a jerk
<elmo> LaserJock: you don't get to make demands on people's time
 * maco nods
<LaserJock> I'm not making demands
<Keybuk> you certainly don't get to make demands on people's time if you're unwilling to help
<elmo> LaserJock: if Scott was actively blocking others from fixing this, I'd be in total agreement with you
<elmo> but he's not
<LaserJock> I'm saying he could of at least arranged with james_w to put up info on bzr merging or something
<james_w> we discussed it
<Keybuk> I suggested it to james_w
<james_w> I agreed to provide a merge proposal to MoM to point people to bzr where appropriate
<elmo> LaserJock: dude, you're still not getting this.  stop saying what Scott should or shouldn't have done.  it's not your call.  he's done what he's done.  be thankful for that.  if you want things to improve, you need to step up or convince someone who isn't Scott to step up
<Keybuk> I actually suggested that if the code is in UDD, MoM would ignore it and just put instructions in the REPORT file
<Keybuk> nobody's written that code
<james_w> or replace it with something based entirely on bzr
<james_w> however, I've not had time yet
<Keybuk> LaserJock: if you want to write that code, go right ahead!
<james_w> help would be welcome, and I can point you to the code you need
<james_w> I'm not going to do it at least until I've worked out how to stop DoSing codehosting though
<ScottK> elmo: I see your point, OTOH, if Canonical is going to suddenly abandon tools upon which the community depends, that's not so great either.
<elmo> james_w: thank you ;-)
<LaserJock> ScottK: that was my point
<Keybuk> what's Canonical got to do with it?
<Keybuk> Canonical is just one member of the Ubuntu community
<Keybuk> as are its employees, just individual members of the Ubuntu community
<LaserJock> MoM was Canonical's project as far as anybody knew
<Keybuk> like any other member, its priorities can change
<LaserJock> which was why it wasn't open sourced at the beginning
<Keybuk> LaserJock: that doesn't mean nobody else can't take it over
<Keybuk> it's been open sourced for years now
<LaserJock> sure, sure, I'm not saying it can't be
<LaserJock> but there aren't that many people with the skills needed
<LaserJock> I certainly can't
<Keybuk> really?
<Keybuk> you don't know Python?
<LaserJock> very little
<ScottK> Keybuk: That's where the step back gracefully part of the CoC comes in.  "Sorry it's broke, good luck" doesn't qualify IMO.
<Keybuk> there's nobody in the entire ubuntu community who knows Python?
<Keybuk> I find that very hard to believe
<LaserJock> there are for sure
<LaserJock> but obviously none have stepped up
<Keybuk> ScottK: you've clearly not read that
<LaserJock> so MoM should be gracefully retired it seems
<Keybuk> I've told people that I have no time for MoM
<Keybuk> repeatedly
<Keybuk> over and over again
<Keybuk> and I've ensured that others can pick it up
<elmo> ScottK: that's part of the leadership part of the CoC
<elmo> ScottK: I think it's pretty disingenuous to compare developing a service to leadership
<Keybuk> (the source is open, the entire core dev team have commit rights, and any commits anyone makes are automatically deployed in service)
<ScottK> elmo: Even if it's not contractually relevant, I think the concept is similar.
<ScottK> BTW, I didn't know commits were automatically deployed until now.
<LaserJock> me neither
<james_w> LaserJock: would you like to send a mail to ubuntu-devel asking for someone with some Python knowledge to help make the change?
<LaserJock> I'm not sure why I should do it but I can if you'd like
<LaserJock> I hardly ever use MoM
<LaserJock> I don't know what's broken, what's not, etc.
<ScottK> "I can push fixes and they work right away" is a lot more motivational than "Maybe it'll get reviewed and published someday"
<asac> MoM is useless atm? or just partially broken?
<ScottK> Not updating reliably I think.
<Keybuk> not updating
<LaserJock> like I said, I'm not against MoM going away if it's not working and people don't have time to maintain it
<Keybuk> when MoM hits a problem, it falls over
<Keybuk> and doesn't continue
<ScottK> Keybuk: Are there error logs somewhere public?
<Keybuk> so if you have a problem package, that package will block updates until whatever MoM issue is fixed
<LaserJock> but it should be announced and it would be very helpful if some sort of transition was made for merges.ubuntu.com
<Keybuk> ScottK: no, but you can run it on your own
<elmo> LaserJock: then announce it
<elmo> LaserJock: stop telling other people what they should or shouldn't have done
<elmo> LaserJock: it's really quite odious
<LaserJock> yes, as odious as telling me that I have to use bzr to merge or some such
<james_w> you don't have to
<Keybuk> you don't have to use anything
<Keybuk> you can merge with pen and paper if you like
<LaserJock> I'm saying there are expectations coming from the community for a tool like merges.ubuntu.com
<elmo> LaserJock: good thing no one's doing that then !
<ScottK> LaserJock: Don't worry, we've been promised that we can continue to use traditional development tools and ignore UDD if we want.
<LaserJock> ok, look, I was not meaning to start a ruckus here. I was just wondering what the status of merges.ubuntu.com was considering that I've been pointing people there
<LaserJock> we have the status, I can send an announcement email
<maxb> james_w: Hi. I see you recently fixed the hardcoded 'james-w@'s in the UDD import-scripts - I noticed there is still one that got missed, though - I wasn't sure if you'd want a MP for something that trivial, or if you'd prefer to just fix it yourself?
<asac> yeah. also i like the idea to add a warning to the MoM pages that the serice is currently unreliable and they should rather do A, B, C
<stgraber> Keybuk: back from lunch, so I'm around now
<james_w> maxb: I think I caught that one. Maybe I didn't push, sorry.
<Keybuk> stgraber: still tracking down this mountall issue
<maxb> james_w: check_marks.py, right?
<Keybuk> stgraber: thought I might have a fix, but I just noticed something else in the log, so I'm not so sure
<james_w> maxb: oh, ok
<james_w> maxb: I'll grep now :-)
<james_w> thanks maxb
<smoser> anyone have a good idea on how to identify partitions in a xen guest? explicitly, i'd like to go through existing partitions (that show up in /proc/partitions) and figure out what is on them , as in if it is a swap partition or has filesystem data
<Keybuk> blkid ?
<smoser> i can't rely on the partiion type (ie, per fdisk -l) because xen block devices dont necisarrily have a partition table
<smoser> Keybuk, rock. thank you.
<RoAkSoAx> james_w, is it possible to do different kinds of diffs when using bzr merge-package, such as diff between new debian and new ubuntu and things like that?
<james_w> RoAkSoAx: yes
<james_w> you can use options to diff to do it
<james_w> bzr diff --old lp:debian/sid/package for what you ask for
<RoAkSoAx> james_w, awesome :). Btw.. is it detailed in any wikipage?
<james_w> RoAkSoAx: no, but good point :-)
<james_w> would you like to add a section to the end of https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DistributedDevelopment/Documentation/Merging ?
<RoAkSoAx> james_w, sure :)
<james_w> thanks
<fbond_> Hi.  I have a build script that calls apt-get install upstart upstart-compat-sysv.  It's failing because upstart-compat-sysv is a virtual package provided by upstart.  But this same script worked fine twelve days ago.  I'd like to identify what changed that would cause the failure to come up now.  Any ideas?
<stgraber> Keybuk: ping me if you need more info or have something that I can test
<fbond_> (Obviously, the problem is easy enough to correct, I just want to understand what's going on.)
<fbond_> I'm using karmic, FWIW.
<Keybuk> stgraber: the basic problem is that it's trying to remount /rofs ;)
<ScottK> Adri2000: Do you still have any interest/time to work on MoM?  I can't spend a lot of time on development, but I could commit changes.
<stgraber> Keybuk: hmm, doesn't seem like a good idea ;)
<ion> fbond: Itâs not the job of the build script to install build dependencies. Build deps should be listed in the control file. And as you said, upstart-compat-sysv is now provided by the upstart package.
<fbond_> ion: Sorry, not a packaging script.  This is a script I'm using to build a disk image.
<fbond> ion: I'm really just wondering why it worked less than two weeks ago but does not work anymore.
<Keybuk> stgraber: oh, hmm, I see
<Keybuk> I've found the change that did it ;)
<LaserJock> james_w: what's a good URL to point people to regarding merging with bzr?
<james_w> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DistributedDevelopment/Documentation/Merging
<Adri2000> ScottK: no, sorry. currently I don't have enough time to do the debian/ubuntu packaging work I'd like to do, so no time to spend on developing MoM :(
<ScottK> OK.  Thanks Adri2000.
<Keybuk> stgraber: ok, around now?  would like you to test this if you can
<stgraber> Keybuk: sure
<Keybuk> stgraber: are you on i386?
<LaserJock> james_w: ok, email sent. if somebody can moderate it on -announce it'll go there too
<stgraber> Keybuk: yep
<Keybuk> can you upgrade back to current mountall in archive, initramfs, etc.
<Keybuk> then grab http://people.canonical.com/~scott/tmp/mountall - overwriting the binary in /sbin
<Keybuk> and try with that
<Keybuk> --debug output greatly appreciated
<arand> ion: hifi: I put down the aptitude crash there as Bug #499543 sorry if duped..
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 499543 in apt "recent apt upgrade crashes aptitude" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/499543
<hifi> oh, ion reported it too :)
<hifi> I didn't put a report in yet, so no dupe from me
<ion> arand: Thanks. I didnât get around to reporting it yet.
<ion> hifi: I didnât report it, just mentioned it here. :-P
<hifi> same here :p
<hifi> though apt-get works fine if you didn't know
<ion> Yeah, it does.
<arand> mentioned that on the bug
<stgraber> Keybuk: it worked !!
<stgraber> Keybuk: want the debug output anyway ?
<Keybuk> yes please
<stgraber> Keybuk: http://pastebin.com/f2ec068e6
<stgraber> now that it boots, let's send that through bootchart ;) A thin client can boot in a lot less than 10s for sure ! (reading a compressed minimal root system + minimal DM can't take long to load, only slow part is the DHCP request)
<Keybuk> ok cool
<Keybuk> that looks right
<stgraber> thanks for giving me a booting thin client again :)
<Keybuk> the same bug prevented the Live CD from booting too :p
<fbond> ion: FWIW, I figured out that APT doesn't seem to care about installing both upstart and upstart-compat-sysv with only one version of upstart in the repos.  As soon as there is more than one version, it decides it's an error.
<fbond> Not sure if that should be reported as a bug (shouldn't it be an error in both cases?).
<UnixDawg> hey guys we have a issue in the apache2 package
<UnixDawg> it seems php redirects are not working
<Keybuk> james_w: argh!
<Keybuk> I've just had another instance where the package importer has stamped over my branch
<Keybuk> james_w: I'm starting to believe that it isn't safe to use these lp:ubuntu/* branches after all
<james_w> Keybuk: which package?
<Keybuk> james_w: plymouth
<james_w> another one you push --overwrote?
<Keybuk> yes
<james_w> ok
<james_w> won't happen again like that
<Keybuk> ok
<Keybuk> what about the cases where the branch got removed and hasn't come back?
<Keybuk> e.g. ureadahead
<Keybuk> (I was able to push plymouth over the top again)
<james_w> I thought you had found ureadahead?
<Keybuk> I have a working tree
<Keybuk> but now there's nowhere to push to
<alex-weej> since we moved to xplash /etc/gdm/Init/Default doesn't seem to run (or my xcalib line doesn't run) -- is there some way i can configure xsplash to run xcalib as soon as it starts X?
<james_w> Keybuk: ah, ok
<james_w> Keybuk: push it somewhere and send me the URL
<slangasek> Keybuk: so on bug #493480, now I understand why mountall is unhappy but I still don't know how to make it happy.  The crypt-tmp filesystem has to be mounted somewhere in order to chmod 1777 the root directory; I realize now that /tmp is a bad place for this regardless because it's racy, but do you have any thoughts on a more appropriate place to do this?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 493480 in cryptsetup "[Karmic, security] Encrypted /tmp no longer mounting after upgrade to karmic" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/493480
<Keybuk> slangasek: /var/lib/cryptsetup/somewhere ?
<Keybuk> (that's how ureadahead mounts debugfs during the boot)
<Keybuk> james_w: lp:~ubuntu-core-dev/ubuntu/lucid/ureadahead/lucid
<slangasek> Keybuk: is there a sane way to do that without blocking on local-filesystems?
<slangasek> hmm, /var/run/cryptsetup might do
<Keybuk> slangasek: you could use local-filesystems and /var/run
<slangasek> ack
<slangasek> virtual-filesystems, I guess
<cjwatson> Mamarok: I asked doko to look at it; I don't have any more recent status
<Keybuk> err
<Keybuk> yes
<Keybuk> virtual
<Keybuk> those things
<Keybuk> ;)
<Keybuk> mountall always defers to someone else running mount
<slangasek> Keybuk: thanks, I'll get this cleared out ASAP then
<Keybuk> if you mount something on a mount point it was expecting to, it assumes you know better
<slangasek> heh
<slangasek> what a silly thing to assume ;)
<Keybuk> it kinda has to behave that way
<Keybuk> since having mountall rearrange all the initramfs mounts would go badly
<Keybuk> "but that UUID shouldn't be your root" etc.
 * Keybuk is being nice with bugs today
<Keybuk> I'm not marking a bug as invalid because mountall can't mount /proc/bus/usb
<Keybuk> because the bug description has all the other problems along the way :p
<Keybuk> once the user confirms that mountall fails to mount /proc/bus/usb *then carries on anyway*
<Keybuk> then I'll mark it Invalid <g>
<slangasek> heh
<ion> keybuk: If weâre talking about the same bug report, his problem was that lucidâs CONFIG_USB_DEVICEFS was disabled in lucidâs kernel.
<Keybuk> but the guy with the patched kernel and patched mountall is having no love from me
<Keybuk> ion: yes
<Keybuk> but the fact mountall then goes into an infinite loop, and segfaults, is unrelated :p
<Keybuk> 2.1 should fix that, then I'll mark the bug as invalid :p
<slangasek> Keybuk: udev itself depends on virtual-filesystems, without which none of the events happen that start these other jobs... is it reasonable to leave the dependency on virtual-filesystems implicit?
<Keybuk> slangasek: as long as there's a dependency on udev ;)
<Keybuk> (which includes the events emitted by udev)
<slangasek> ok, cool
<alex-weej> does xsplash have a script it executes when starting X?
<alex-weej> i need to run xcalib
<Keybuk> xsplash doesn't start X
<alex-weej> ok then why doesn't my xcalib line in /etc/gdm/Init/Default work anymore? :(
<Keybuk> are you using auto-login?
<alex-weej> yes
<Keybuk> that's why
<alex-weej> i want it to start waaaay before login
<Keybuk> add it to /etc/gdm/PreSession/Default too
<Keybuk> (assuming it's ok to run it twice)
<alex-weej> yes it is
<Keybuk> gdm only runs Init/Default when displaying a greeter
<alex-weej> i see
<alex-weej> thanks, let me try then, brb!
<Keybuk> slangasek: could you spin me some new i386 live cd images?
<alex-weej> Keybuk, thanks, that appears to work. xsplash still seems slightly off colour but that might just be my eyes :)
<alex-weej> macbook displays are pretty bad with default CLUT :/
<Keybuk> I didn't think we even started xsplash in lucid
<alex-weej> oh?
<alex-weej> does anyone have any ideas on how to support restoring backlight levels on boot? default full brightness burns my face and my screen...
<Keybuk> alex-weej: probably better off discussing that upstream on the devkit list
 * alex-weej is slightly confused as to whether devkit even exists anymore
<Keybuk> it doesn't
<Keybuk> but the ML still does
* ScottK changed the topic of #ubuntu-devel to: Lucid Alpha 1 released | Archive: open | MoM no longer running, use bzr! - Outstanding merges: http://udd.debian.org/cgi-bin/merges.cgi | Development of Ubuntu (not support, not app development on Ubuntu) | #ubuntu for support and general discussion for dapper-karmic | #ubuntu-motu for getting involved in development | http://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopment | See #ubuntu-bugs for http://wiki.ubuntu.com/HelpingWithBugs
<alex-weej> ok that sounds a bit like you're asking me to go and ask the hardware shop for a can of stripy paint and a long stand
<alex-weej> :P
<Keybuk> Bikeshed Painting Party!
<Keybuk> slangasek, cjwatson: could you spin me some new i386 live cd images?
<cjwatson> Keybuk: queued up
<Keybuk> thx
<fbond> What is the mechanism by which lo is brought up in karmic?  I.e. what calls ifup at boot time?
<Keybuk> fbond: dark rites
<fbond> Keybuk: I figured as much. ;)
<fbond> Keybuk: Does upstart do it directly?
<Keybuk> kernelinithasabuiltindevicethatittellsudevaboutwhichresultsinanupstarteventoverthebridgeandthenupstartcallsifupwhichbringsitup
<Keybuk> yes, basically
<fbond> Keybuk: I would expect to see this in an upstart job definition ... ?
<Keybuk> /etc/init/network-interface.conf
<ScottK> Keybuk: Do you recall: Is the main page for MoM generated from the merge-o-matic code or is it a static page?
<Keybuk> it's a static page generated from the merge-o-matic code
<ScottK> OK.  Thanks.
<fbond> Keybuk: What package contains that file?
<Keybuk> fbond: rather than hand you that fish, I will teach you about "dpkg -S FILENAME"
<fbond> Keybuk: Well of course I already know that.  I just don't have a full karmic system and packages.ubuntu.com didn't seem to know about it.
<fbond> (I'm missing that file in the stripped down system I have.)
<fbond> But nevermind, so long as it is in a package I'll get install a full system and track it down.
<Keybuk> it comes from ifupdown
<slangasek> ...which is a dependency of "ubuntu-minimal", so s/stripped down/broken/, there
<fbond> slangasek: s/stripped down/really stripped down/, maybe.
<slangasek> by your own admission it's broken, I'm pointing at why :)
<Keybuk> "I hacked off my foot, and now I can't walk"
<fbond> No need to be dramatic, ubuntu-minimal depends on some things I don't need.  I'll consider adding it anyway.
<Keybuk> fbond: the basic point of ubuntu-minimal is it's the bits we think everyone needs <g>
<Tm_T> I wonder what those bits he doesn't need are
<fbond> Keybuk: Yeah, this is a specialized live system that runs in memory.  I need it as small as possible.
<Keybuk> fbond: what did you have to remove?
<fbond> Well, APT, anyway.
<fbond> I'll make a build with ubuntu-minimal and see if it makes the image a lot bigger.  My constraints have loosened over the years.
<fbond> (I used to have to run on machines with 128 (256? don't remember) MB RAM.)
 * ScottK ran a full desktop on 256 as recently as Hardy, so that's not very constraining.
<fbond> ScottK: Right, but you weren't running entirely from RAM.
<fbond> My root is a union mount with tmpfs R/W.
<ScottK> fbond: True.
<Keybuk> that's what the Live CD does
<fbond> Keybuk: Oh, sorry, R/O portion of root is squashfs in memory.
<fbond> The whole system is in memory.  It gets PXE booted.
<Keybuk> that actually doesn't really make much difference
<Keybuk> the majority of memory is page cache anyway
<ScottK> slangasek: Could I trouble you to look at kdepim in binary New?  Riddell seems to be away from his computer and that's all that's between us and having KDE 4.2 beta 2 done on i386 (the New packages should be accepted into Main).
<Keybuk> though I guess you'd need to tweak the kernel to not try and double-cache everything :p
<cjwatson> the live CD did use to have trouble running in 256MB; I think it manages now
<fbond> Keybuk: That would be good, agreed.  Not sure I follow why having the entire root fs in memory doesn't make a difference?
<Keybuk> fbond: because, as I said, it tends to end up in memory anyway via the page cache
<Keybuk> I did some math once
<cjwatson> although the live CD at least *can* page things out, which a PXE-booted system like that can't
<fbond> Keybuk: Right, but with a block device backing it the cache can be dropped when RAM gets low.
<cjwatson> only once?
<Keybuk> over half the contents of the live CD end up in memory
<fbond> Keybuk: As an optimization, not as the storage mechanism.
<fbond> It's only cache, right?
<Keybuk> well
<Keybuk> ish ;)
<slangasek> ScottK: yep, I'll have a look in a couple minutes
<ScottK> Thanks.
<Keybuk> the kernel is like a hillbilly
<Keybuk> it behaves in strange ways
<slangasek> siretart: "the screen remains dark at this point" - that's not bug #496765, you have a separate plymouth or kernel bug
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 496765 in plymouth "plymouth ask-for-password doesn't display --prompt argument" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/496765
<slangasek> siretart: bug #496765 is about the /text of the prompt/ not being displayed, not about a blank screen
<siretart> slangasek: oh, interesting. maybe there is something very weird going on with cirrus graphics?
<siretart> that's what qemu/kvm is emulating
<slangasek> ScottK: "MoM is already irrelevant" - it may currently be /broken/, but there's nothing else that gives me a merge todo list
<ScottK> slangasek: It's lacking a maintainer.
<ScottK> So there is nothing that gives you a merge TODO list.
<slangasek> yes, and this is a problem
<ScottK> slangasek: Thanks for kdepim, BTW.
<slangasek> sure
<wgrant> Also, didn't MoM generate patches.ubuntu.com?
<ScottK> lucas is up for adding that to his list, just it's non-trivial to do it.
<ScottK> (at least as I understand it, he can speak for himself)
<slangasek> Keybuk: "plymouthd; plymouth --show-splash" - doesn't work for me at all here under X?
<Keybuk> slangasek: as root?
<Keybuk> siretart: plymouth does not support cirrus graphics
<Keybuk> since we don't have Kernel Mode Setting for cirrus graphics
<slangasek> Keybuk: yes, when run as non-root it just says "must run as root"
<Keybuk> slangasek: and when run as root?
<slangasek> Keybuk: it displays nothing
<Keybuk> that's weird
<Keybuk> I get two X windows ;)
<slangasek> I don't
<Keybuk> does plymouthd segfault for you?
<slangasek> no
<Keybuk> you're on i915 aren't you?
<slangasek> yes
<Keybuk> weird
<Keybuk> you export your $DISPLAY and stuff with sudo?
<Keybuk> and check there's no plymouthd running from pre-X ?
<slangasek> yes, yes
<Keybuk> hmm
<Keybuk> you have /lib/plymouth/x11.so ?
<slangasek> Keybuk: no :)
<Keybuk> err, is it in a sub-directory?
<slangasek> /lib/plymouth/renderers/x11.so
<Keybuk> right that's what I meant
<slangasek> ok
<Keybuk> huh
<Keybuk> can you strace plymouthd
<slangasek> sure
<Keybuk> when you show-splash, does it at least try and dlopen that?
<slangasek> nope
<slangasek> er, yes
<Keybuk> does the dlopen work?
<slangasek> looks like it; it successfully loads all the lib dependencies
<Keybuk> that was going to be my next question; did I forget to include a dep?
<siretart> Keybuk: could plymouth have some way to check for the presence of KMS and just print some error message so that our users don't have to find this out themselves? - What does fedora do for cirrus graphics?
<slangasek> Keybuk: ldd -d -r says it's clean
<Keybuk> siretart: they fallback to the text backend
<siretart> sounds reasonable
<Keybuk> slangasek: hmm, the only reason I can see that the renderer can fail to open is if gtk_init fails
<Keybuk> and that's if you have no valid $DISPLAY or $XAUTHORITY ?
<Keybuk> sanity check: do you see other dlopen()s for different renderers afterwards?
<slangasek> Keybuk: not for other renderers; there's a subsequent open of /lib/plymouth/details.so
<Keybuk> huh
<slangasek> running other X apps as root works
<Keybuk> ohh
<Keybuk> you don't have "splash" on your cmdline, do you? :p
<slangasek> heh; I don't
<slangasek> well, I was going to reboot shortly anyway, shall I do that now? :)
<Keybuk> sure
<Keybuk> (the x11 renderer should so ignore that)
<Keybuk> siretart: we actually plan to fallback to vga16fb
<Keybuk> but not done that yet
<Keybuk> plymouth doesn't work in general right now
<Keybuk> so it's not the right time to fiddle with the specifics of non-kms stuff
<fbond> Keybuk: Would I be able to convince you that upstart should depend on ifupdown or (and I think this is better) upstart ships network-interface.conf and it is modified to use ifconfig directly rather than ifup?
<Keybuk> fbond: no, absolutely not
<Keybuk> ubuntu-minimal depends on ifupdown
<Keybuk> upstart does not require you have networking
<Keybuk> upstart doesn't require you even have AF_INET compiled into your kernel
<fbond> Well, it won't boot the system without it (using the default config)...
<Keybuk> yes it will
<Keybuk> just fine
<Keybuk> you just won't have networking
<ScottK> slangasek: Could I have a new Kubuntu netbook for i386?  I think it will work now and I'd like to make sure I didn't miss anything.
<fbond> Keybuk: http://launchpadlibrarian.net/36606433/upstart_0.6.3-10_0.6.3-11.diff.gz
<Keybuk> fbond: slangasek did that
<fbond> The reason I ask is because my system would not boot because there was no net-device-up event...
<fbond> Keybuk: So that change will be reverted?
<Keybuk> ask him :)
<fbond> slangasek: ?
<Keybuk> but since you're not using an Ubuntu system ...
<Keybuk> (since we explicitly define Ubuntu systems as having ubuntu-minimal installed <g>)
<fbond> Well, it occurs to me that using ifconfig instead also avoid breakage due to /etc/network/interfaces badness...
<fbond> (I've read the relevant bugs and have seen that this is a problem for some users.)
<fbond> Keybuk: BTW, it's easy enough to fix my system without that change, I only bring i up because I think in a perfect world, installing upstart with the default config would leave you with a system that upstart can boot successfully.
<fbond> (So whether my system is technically "Ubuntu" is not relevant to my point. ;)
<slangasek> Keybuk: ok, so how do I work around mountall blocking on my NFS mounts at boot time now?
<slangasek> since that was one of the longer "reboots" I've had to do this week :)
<slangasek> Keybuk, fbond: I'm still researching why the upstart change is reported to break runlevels for people who *don't* have missing packages; if I can figure that out, I'm not going to revert the upstart change only for a use case that we don't support
<slangasek> ScottK: kubuntu-netbook respinning
<ScottK> slangasek: Thanks.
<slangasek> Keybuk: confirmed, plymouthd shows me X windows now when booting with 'splash' :)
<lamont> sigh.  schroot seems to really hate armel, or vice versa
 * lamont kills the build before it takes out a 3rd armel box
<Lutin> asac: yes ?
<slangasek> Keybuk: 'plymouth quit' kills X, though :)
<fbond> Keybuk: If your curious, adding ubuntu-minimal to my system increased the chroot size by only 12M, and the squashfs image by only 4M.  That's small enough to justify including it.
<fbond> So I'm officially supported again. ;)
<Keybuk> slangasek: yeah, sometimes :p
<Keybuk> slangasek: err, mountall shouldn't block
<Keybuk> don't suppose you can run "sudo mountall --debug --no-events" for me?
<slangasek> Keybuk: well, if I run it from a booted system, it appears to mount everything quite happily.  Let me work on reproducing this
<Keybuk> --debug >/dev/mountall.log 2>&1 in the upstart job?
<Keybuk> only NFS mounts under /usr and /var are waited for
<Mamarok> cjwatson: thanks for looking into it :)
<slangasek> pitti: cryptsetup reuploaded to karmic-proposed, with a more complete fix for bug #475936; would love to have that processed so we can close the books on this one
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 475936 in cryptsetup "race condition between encrypted device creation and mountall probing with random-encrypted devices (swap, tmp)" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/475936
#ubuntu-devel 2009-12-23
<slangasek> Keybuk: ok, doesn't look like nfs mounts are the issue; it seems something else changed between my test w/ NFS mounts enabled and without
<slangasek> (though I do appear to have the opposite problem, that nothing is waiting around for the NFS shares to become available, so they don't get automounted, sigh)
<slangasek> Keybuk: it looks like the problem I was actually having consists of gdm failing to start up
<slangasek> which I think you've already triaged :)
<Keybuk> slangasek: not triaged
<Keybuk> still don't know why gdm doesn't start
<Keybuk> just know that it doesn't
<Keybuk> (rather than it does start and fails)
<Keybuk> mountall should wait around though
<Keybuk> it only exits once everything in fstab has been mounted
<Keybuk> it stays running after emitting filesystem for anything else
<slangasek> hmm, ok
<Keybuk> (at least it should <g>)
<slangasek> ok, will dig further
<stgraber> Keybuk: hey, I'm currently working on improving the boot process of LTSP and noticed we have ureadahead doing something during our boot process (probably profiling). As we're reading a compressed boot image from the network, I'm not sure we really need it and having it profile on a read-only system doesn't make much sense.
<stgraber> is there a way to turn it off ?
<bluefoxicy> Why does VLC load with a christmas hat now?
<slangasek> I guess somebody put a Christmas egg in it
<slangasek> james_w: what needs to happen to get the fix for bug #493462 out to lucid?  I seem to have run into the same problem again (emacs-goodies-el)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 493462 in bzr-builddeb "pathological merge-package failure with brltty" [High,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/493462
<Keybuk> stgraber: don't install it
<stgraber> Keybuk: well, we use ubuntu-minimal ;)
<slangasek> stgraber: rm /etc/init/ureadahead-other.conf?
<Keybuk> stgraber: here's a better question for you ...
<Keybuk> does readahead slow down your boot?
<Keybuk> I would have thought, with network latency and all, that there would be an advantage to doing all the reads up front in one block
<stgraber> Keybuk: that's a good question, at the moment it doesn't as we don't have a pack in the chroot and I don't suppose we have a way to generate one without first booting a thin client and getting it
<stgraber> did a quick check, having the pack from the netbook put into the image makes the boot 250ms slower. I guess I'll drop ureadahead for now and see if there's some way I can use it later.
<Keybuk> packs are individually sorted for each filesystem
<lamont> why is it that all the i386 boxes in the house that I have running karmic seize from time to time?
<shtylman> there appears to be a nasty regression in lucid kernels with regard to intel wifi
<shtylman> my wifi can't connect at all
<shtylman> similar symptoms to bug: 425366
<shtylman> bug #425366
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 425366 in network-manager "Cannot connect to WEP 802.1x network" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/425366
<shtylman> always wlan0: disassociating by local choice (reason=3)
<crimsun> shtylman: can you associate with an unencrypted AP?
<shtylman> crimsun: nope
<shtylman> that didn't work either (tried it the other day)
<shtylman> I also tried a daily kernel
<shtylman> same problem
<StevenK> pitti: I'm promoting ubuntu-netbook-default-settings to main, it replaces ubuntu-netbook-remix-default-settings which has been in main for a while.
<crimsun> shtylman: and with the appropriate kernel from http://kernel.ubuntu.com/~kernel-ppa/mainline/v2.6.32.2/ ?
<shtylman> didn't see those...I tested with a 2.6.33 kernel
<shtylman> should I try one of those ?
<crimsun> shtylman: yes
<shtylman> k..gimme a min
<shtylman> crimsun: same
<shtylman> wpa supplicant retries in a loop
<shtylman> dmesg says deauth reason 3
<crimsun> shtylman: please file a bug against linux (ubuntu-bug linux) including that bit about testing mainline 2.6.32.2
<shtylman> what about that other bug?
<shtylman> I remanmed it... and changed the package for it
<shtylman> should i file a new bug?
<shtylman> or just add the comment
<crimsun> file a new one, please. That's a different kernel.
<shtylman> k
<crimsun> it'll be triaged as appropriate regardless
<shtylman> would this be an issue that has been confirmed with the upstream kernel?
<shtylman> is that the upstream kernel as far as we are concerned?
<crimsun> since you've confirmed it in 2.6.32.2, it's an upstream issue, yes.
<crimsun> I presume you tested 2.6.33-rc1's mainline build as well?
<shtylman> not built from git
<shtylman> I just tested the daily one from kernel.ubuntu.com
<shtylman> haha... I couldn't report the bug cause its not a genuine package
<crimsun> oh c-o-d, not http://kernel.ubuntu.com/~kernel-ppa/mainline/v2.6.33-rc1/ ? I don't think anything much has changed, but I haven't tracked linus's merges in a few days
<shtylman> lemme try that one just to be sure
<shtylman> then should I remove them before i run ubuntu-bug .. cause otherwise it fails
<crimsun> probablya
<crimsun> shtylman: perhaps ping mcgrof in #ubuntu-kernel
<shtylman> k
<roger21> hi, what would be the file that allow to set up the double click delay ?
<ScottK> roger21: I think #ubuntu would be a better channel to ask that question.
<roger21> well they usually refer to the graphical interface, but yes i is not a dev related question
<micahg> is this a good place for bzr merge help?
<spiv> micahg: I'm guessing it could be, but if not you could try #bzr
<micahg> will #bzr help with bzr merge-package?
<spiv> micahg: we'll try, anyway :)
<micahg> the problem is that I get this when trying to merge two bzr repos bzr: ERROR: No such tag: upstream-3.0~hg20091109r4325+nobinonly
<micahg> I'm trying to merge TB3 into the current TB2 bzr repo
<micahg> or is merge-package only with distro merges?
<ScottK> micahg: I'd ask james_w after he's awake.
<micahg> ok, ScottK, you know what tz that would be?
<ScottK> He lives in the UK, but I don't know that he's there currently.
<micahg> ok, I'll try when I get up then :)
<dholbach> good morning
<Dday> after moving from ubuntu 9.04-9.10 my sound no longer works, does anyone know what i should do?
<dholbach> does anybody know a bit more about the aptitude stack smashing?
<dholbach> it makes running pbuilder a bit hard :)
<slangasek> kees: ^^
<nixternal> dholbach: looks like kees already uploaded a fix
<nixternal> I caught everyone complainging, so I have been doing my Debian work :D
<dholbach> bug 499665 and bug 499693
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 499665 in aptitude "aptitude crashed after trying to install random packages." [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/499665
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 499693 in aptitude "aptitude crashed with full-upgrade" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/499693
<nixternal> 488631
<nixternal> they seem to be the same
<dholbach> nixternal: I just hope that LP doesn't use aptitude in the chroots, that'd make it a bit more complicated to fix
<nixternal> bug 488631
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 488631 in inkscape "inkscape aqua (with macports) crashes after startup" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/488631
<nixternal> err
<nixternal> bug 499631
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 499631 in aptitude "Stack smashing in aptitude on safe-upgrade" [High,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/499631
<nixternal> silly fingers
<dholbach> I'll dupe the others
<dholbach> hey mvo
<kees> dholbach: yeah, as slangasek says, I just tracked it down and uploaded what seems to fix it for me.
 * dholbach hugs kees
<dholbach> thanks guys :-D
<kees> mvo: I think the recent apt upload broke ABI (at least for aptitude)
 * kees hugs dholbach
<slangasek> dholbach: why does /pbuilder/ use aptitude?  it ought to just use apt, as far as I'm concerned
<kees> yeah, I nearly closed the bug as "don't use aptitude".  :P
<nixternal> son of a!! *#)@*#@ I need that folder...I wrote a damn xmobar plugin (Haskell) for apt and just deleted it...I knew I should have worked on something else
<dholbach> slangasek: that's an entirely different question :)
<kees> heh
<mvo> hey dholbach
 * dholbach will take the dog for a walk and wait for the aptitude rebuild to happen :)
<mvo> kees: oh, hrm, thanks. I have a look
<mvo> kees: hm, I did test that :/ did you/someone uploaded a rebuild already?
<kees> mvo: I just uploaded a rebuild, yes.
<mvo> many thanks kees!
<kees> sure thing!  Hopefully that was the right solution.
<mvo> kees: yeah, I just spotted the problem I think
<kees> ah, ok.  some structure change size?  I was trying to figure out what would have triggered a stack-overflow, but not a fortify check.
<mvo> kees: its a change in the signature of packagemanager.h, it got a new default argument and I overlooked that when I did the merge
<kees> ah-ha
<mvo> kees: the anoying thing is that its not even really needed, just for debugging purpose
<kees> :(
<mvo> kees: (ImmediateAdd() is the one)
<mvo> kees: thanks again, I will unbreak the abi again in apt and do another aptitude upload afterward
<kees> okay, cool.  thanks for finding the break!
<pitti> Good morning
<pitti> slangasek: cryptsetup> great, thanks! will do SRUs today
<pitti> StevenK: u-n-default-settings> ack, thanks
<dholbach> hi pitti
 * pitti hugs dholbach
 * dholbach hugs pitti back
<StevenK> pitti: It probably appears in component-overrides, I'll be fixing the seeds tomorrow
<ttx> mvo: would that aptitude thing explain some installer breakage as well ? I just ran into a failure at package selection stage
 * ttx tries to reproduce with server ISO in regular install mode
<mvo> ttx: yes, most likely
<ttx> mvo: ok :)
<cjwatson> ttx: asix> ask the kernel team to add it to nic-usb-modules - it seems perfectly reasonable to me, but I'd just be proxying your request through to the kernel team anyway :)
<ttx> cjwatson: ok, will file bug, just wanted to make sure there wasn't any size/speed/whatever conflict involved here
<cjwatson> not especially, no
<ttx> I guess minimodules are "mini".
<LucidFox> siretart`, do you think it would make sense for you to join #gtkpod and join the discussion about libmp4v2 licensing?
<primes2h> pitti: Hello, could you have a look at this please? bug #499445. It seems to be jockey related in some way...
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 499445 in linux "Conflicts between Broadcom 4312 wireless driver and internal Bluetooth on HP Mini 110" [High,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/499445
<primes2h> pitti: This bug has been confirmed on two different ubuntu forum post, I ask them to confirm it on launchpad as well
<bdrung> do anyone have a armel or powerpc machine here?
<bdrung> then please check if linphone 3.2.1-1 builds
<asac> bdrung: is there any reason to believe that it could be a problem?
<bdrung> asac: the ubuntu package had a patch.
<bdrung> asac: lp #498584
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 498584 in linphone "Merge linphone 3.2.1-1 (universe) from Debian testing (main)" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/498584
<asac> bdrung: are all the rdpends avail?
<bdrung> asac: there is siproxd as rdepends
<asac> bdrung: that is missing still?
<asac> bdrung: we cannot build stuff on porter machines where not all rdepends are in archive
<lamont> so when the machine locks up between the gdm screen and a working desktop... what's the best way to actually see WTF it's doing ?
<bdrung> asac: the rdepends is available. why are the rdepends relevant?
<asac> 13:59 < asac> bdrung: we cannot build stuff on porter machines where not all rdepends are in archive
<bdrung> asac: do i as motu have access right to these porter machines?
<asac> no
<asac> but you asked if someone could try it ;)
<asac> so i wanted a confirm that everything is there so i  can try it without utilizing my board ;)
<bdrung> asac: the dependencies are there. (builds on amd64)
<asac> kk
<asac> bdrung: actually i think its safe to assume that we still need that
<asac> merge
<asac> i would suggest just to upload the merge ...
<asac> if you really want it, i can give the sync a try
<bdrung> k
<asac> on the porter machine
<asac> but armel is really slow ;)
<bdrung> asac: can you give the porter machine a try?
<tseliot> primes2h: it's package related and I replied in the bug report
<asac> bdrung: feels overly accurate to me, but i can try armel if that helps. if you think it might be fixed, we can just sync and then fix again if it fails
<asac> but as i said, i dont think its fixed
<asac> really unlikely
<asac> we still have gcc 4.4
<asac> anyway. getting build dependencies now
<bdrung> asac: there are new upstream releases in between. if it builds on armel, we should sync. otherwise merge.
<asac> bdrung: why would it build?
<asac> its the Werror ... thats almost certainly still a problem
<asac> anyway, i cannot remove stuff from the chroot
<asac> so no chance to build there
<asac> libreadline-dev is installed by conflicts with some of the build depds
<asac> would require admin intervention :/
<primes2h> tseliot: Ah, ok. Thanks for the reply. I haven't tried, but are you sure b43 and ssl interfere with wl or was only a cleaning things?
<bdrung> asac: it builds on debian (with gcc 4.3)
<primes2h> thing
<asac> bdrung: yes. but 4.4 is the problem
<tseliot> primes2h: as you can see in the other bug report, wl can't be loaded if those other two modules are loaded
<ScottK> bdrung: Unless it build with 4.4, that's pretty meaningless.
<asac> that emits more warnings than 4.3
<asac> which is why Werror kills us
<asac> imo just upload the merge
<asac> or ask for a sync and fix again if it fails
<bdrung> k, will upload the merge
<asac> great :)
<primes2h> tseliot: I saw it but somewhere on Internet I read something about modules priority. I mean, it should work if you load modules in a certain way. Does this say something to you?
<tseliot> primes2h: does "sudo modprobe --force b43 ssb" work if wl is loaded? And by work I mean do both bluetooth and wifi work?
<primes2h> tseliot: Hold on, it's the test I was planning to do. :)
* ScottK changed the topic of #ubuntu-devel to: Lucid Alpha 1 released | Archive: open | MoM no longer running, use bzr! - Outstanding merges:http://people.ubuntuwire.com/~lucas/merges.html | Development of Ubuntu (not support, not app development on Ubuntu) | #ubuntu for support and general discussion for dapper-karmic | #ubuntu-motu for getting involved in development | http://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopment | See #ubuntu-bugs for http://wiki.ubuntu.com/HelpingWithBugs
<tseliot> ok
<ion> Iâm forced to use a proprietary driver for my BCM4322, since the free driver doesnât support this one yet. Iâve noticed that the Windowsâ¢ driver with ndiswrapper works a lot better than bcmwl.
<asac> dont buy broadcom wifi hardware :-P
<asac> thats inferior stuff
<ion> Indeed
<asac> the fact that macs have those just shows that you get ripped off ;)
<primes2h> tseliot: WARNING: Error inserting cfg80211 (lib/modules/2.6.31-16-generic/kernel/net/wireless/cfg80211.ko): Invalid module format
<primes2h> WARNING: Error inserting mac80211 (lib/modules/2.6.31-16-generic/kernel/net/mac80211/mac80211.ko): Invalid module format
<primes2h> WARNING: Error inserting ssb (lib/modules/2.6.31-16-generic/kernel/drivers/ssb/ssb.ko): Invalid module format
<asac> sound bad ;)
<asac> "invalid module format"
<tseliot> primes2h: unfortunately the driver is half proprietary and it doesn't seem to integrate well with open drivers. I don't think there's anything we can do about it
<primes2h> ERROR: Error inserting b43 (lib/modules/2.6.31-16-generic/kernel/drivers/net/wireless/b43/b43.ko): Invalid module format
<primes2h> asac: I know :(
<asac> sure that those files are not corrupted?
<primes2h> asac: Tell netbook producer
<asac> did those files come oob with netbook producer?
<primes2h> asac: If I uninstall proprietary driver, bluetooth works again
<primes2h> asac: I meant about broadcom hardware ;)
<asac> primes2h: you should tell that to them ;) ... but i see the point
<asac> you can probably order an atheros card from ebay ;)
<asac> if you can access it
<primes2h> ion: I gave it a try but a weird error come up when installing Win driver using ndiswrapper.
<primes2h> ion: and it's not a workaround because you need to blacklist b43 and ssb as well to make them work
<primes2h> asac: Less work buying a bluetooth dongle ;)
<tseliot> that's for sure
<tseliot> :-/
<tseliot> primes2h: do you mind if I mark the bug report as won't fix?
<primes2h> tseliot: It could be fixed in the future with a new version of proprietary driver I think.
<primes2h> tseliot: Do you agree?
<tseliot> primes2h: hopefully. Let's mark it as triaged then
<primes2h> tseliot: bluetooth should be a broadcom as well
<primes2h> tseliot: It's a HP one, but a Broadcom in fact
<tseliot> primes2h: if so, one is proprietary while the other is not
<primes2h> tseliot: Wireless+bluetooth toghether
 * tseliot nods
<primes2h> tseliot: What about the open source driver develop?
<primes2h> tseliot:do you know something?
<primes2h> DO
<tseliot> primes2h: the driver is partially closed. I don't know if there's an open alternative, I was only volunteered to maintain the proprietary driver :-P
<primes2h> tseliot: Ah, ok. Thanks anyway :)
<tseliot> np
<asac> primes2h: internal is much better because you have real superior antennas usually
<primes2h> asac: The problem here is to have it working :P but you're right
<primes2h> have it working in a way or in another one.
<Ng> how does apport become aware of kernel crashes? can I encourage it to pull one out of logs from a point in time where apport was disabled?
<persia> Ng: iff you have a .crash file available.
<persia> If you don't, you likely don't have recoverable information about the crash.
<Ng> hrm, that's a shame. I'll have to work on reproducing it then
<Ng> thanks
<james_w> Ng: you can enable kerneloops on karmic or later
<Ng> james_w: ooh nice, that's made it write a .crash
<LaserJock> james_w: if I have a package import that's not quite right (missing a revision), what should I do?
<james_w> LaserJock: please file a bug against 'udd'
<Ng> the questions apport is asking me could do with "I don't know" buttons. I don't know if this is a regression, it's brand new hardware ;)
<LaserJock> james_w: awesome, thanks
<primes2h> tseliot: you know? If I give "sudo modprobe b43" only it loads and load all other modules (ssb, mac80211 etc) correctly
<LaserJock> james_w: oh, actually you already marked it Fix Released :(
<primes2h> tseliot: but still no bluetooth... :(
<LaserJock> james_w: bug #490574
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 490574 in udd "lp:debian/{sid,squeeze}/gnome-chemistry-utils out of date" [Undecided,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/490574
<tseliot> primes2h: :-/
<ScottK> james_w: Do you have a moment to discuss a merge problem I ran into last night?
<james_w> yes
<ScottK> I was merging clamsmtp.
<ScottK> They have the unfortunate habit of shipping some .SVN dirs in the upstream tarball.
<ScottK> I went through the process of merging on the wiki and at the end, all the .SVN files showed up as diff from Debian.
<ScottK> My guess is that the importer is helpfully excluding those.
<ScottK> Since it's part of the upstream tarball, it really shouldn't.
<james_w> are you being sarcastic?
<ScottK> The helpfully part is sarcastic, yes.
<james_w> ok, now I know how to phrase the next comment...
<ScottK> I'm sure the exclusion made sense at the time, but it doesn't work well in this case.
<james_w> that problem is fixed, it will work itself out over time
<james_w> doesn't help you with this merge, but the problem is gone
<ScottK> Is this a recent change?
<ScottK> The Debian upload I was merging from was only a few days old.
<james_w> it may have been
<james_w> I'm not sure exactly when the code was deployed
<ScottK> OK.
<jono> anyone here know how to just merge in one file from a merge proposal?
<jono> james_w, ^
<james_w> bzr merge ...
<james_w> bzr revert <everything that changed except that file>
<james_w> bzr revert --forget-merges
<james_w> bzr commit
<jono> thanks
<mr_pouit> james_w: what's the refresh rate of lp:debian/*? xfce4-terminal 0.4.3-1 is now in testing (so one week old), and lp:debian/sid/xfce4-terminal is still unaware of it, which renders merging very very easy.
<james_w> it's supposed to be very quick, but I've had to suspend it while I debug something tricky, sorry
<mr_pouit> ah ok, that makes sense now :>
<geser> is there some documentation on how to "process" merge-proposals?
<persia> geser: What worked for me (but may not work for you) was bzr branch foo; bzr merge bar; bzr commit; bzr push foo
<persia> Launchpad appeared to notice what was done, and update things appropriately.
<geser> persia: and on https://code.edge.launchpad.net/~abogani/ubuntu/lucid/gdb-avr/gdb-avr.fix-FTBFS/+merge/16509 I just "Approve" it? nothing else to do (besides to actually merge it)?
<persia> geser: I was told not to do anything at all on launchpad.
<persia> Launchpad can apparently detect the merge when you push to a target, but can't process the merge itself.
<geser> ok
<persia> I'm not sure about how it relates to uploads though.  I suspect you would have to both push to the branch and upload, as I doubt that LP can update the branch from an upload *and* detect that this processed the merge proposal.
<persia> On the other hand, you might check in #launchpad :)
<fbond> mvo: What upstream version corresponds with Ubuntu's python-apt 0.7.9~exp2ubuntu10 package?
<fbond> (i.e. a bzr revno?)
<mvo> fbond: I need to look that up, why?
<mvo> fbond: should be revno 305 if I'm not mistaken
<geser> james_w: just a quick question: I'm following https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DistributedDevelopment/Documentation/UploadingAPackage and got stuck at the "bzr mark-uploaded" step with "bzr: ERROR: Unknown target distribution: lucid". Doesn't it now about lucid?
<james_w> geser: "debcommit -r" should work for now
<ttx> Time to leave, have great holidays everyone
 * slangasek waves to ttx 
<ttx> slangasek: o/
<douglasawh-work> turns out my dd/clonezilla issues were karmic issues, so we're having to go back to Jaunty
<douglasawh-work> any ideas if grub2/whatever else is going on in the boot works better with dd in Lucid?
<persia> douglasawh-work: lucid-in-progress is available for testing: you might give it a try.  The best way to make sure that it works for lucid is to test early and often.
<statik> hi all - in the new ubuntu distributed development way of doing things, if i look at a merge and decide it should be a sync, is requestsync still the right way to handle that?
<persia> statik: My understanding is that a sync should still be requested of the archive administrators.  I suspect that there would be some value to updating the merge proposal in launchpad to reflect the decision to request a sync in preference to a merge.
<fbond> mvo: I'm working on an application that requires certain python-apt features.  I need to be able to specify a minimum python-apt version that works.
<fbond> The features I'm using look like they were implemented as of bzr revno 313.
<fbond> I have 0.7.9~exp2ubuntu10 installed and it appears to work.
<fbond> (For instance, DscSrcPackage.required_changes was introduced in 313, and is present in 0.7.9~exp2ubuntu10.)
<mvo> fbond: ok, a good way might be (depends on what you need exactly) something like a feature test with "hasattr" or try: except: around the required code to see if its there (or good old fashioned dependencies :)
<statik> persia, thanks!
<fbond> mvo: No, I mean for a README file distributed with the software I'd like to be able to say "requires python-apt version x.y.z or later".  That's alright.  I'll just say minimum 0.7.9 but Ubuntu's 0.7.9~exp2 or later appears to work.
<mvo> fbond: ok
<fbond> mvo: Thanks.
<douglasawh-work> persia: sadly, I can't use Lucid because of an ATI bug which maxes out the cpu
<douglasawh-work> all of our laptops at work have ATI cards :(
<douglasawh-work> actually, we have one with switchable graphics, so I may give that a go
<Keybuk> slangasek: so fixing all the VT issues does seem to solve your input issue
<Keybuk> downside; now the smooth X transition doesn't work :p
<ion> ...the smooth X transition worked at some point?
<micahg> james_w: is bzr merge-package only for debian imports?
<shlomi> Hi , I need help fixing/exploring a bug. Can someone please tell me what software in ubuntu is in charge of creating the isolinux translation files (*.tr) on the CD ?
<shlomi> A reference to some doc about iso building process might help to ...
<cody-somerville> shlomi, I believe the translations are kept in the gfxboot-theme-ubuntu and are translated using Rosetta
<james_w> micahg: it's not exclusive to them, but other branches may not be set up to use it
<slangasek> james_w: hey, is there a way to know what commands are run (or what branches are being worked on) that trigger http://package-import.ubuntu.com/failures/.bzr/failures/ ?  e.g., http://package-import.ubuntu.com/failures/.bzr/failures/quilt seems like it should be fixable by adding the tag, which I've done to try to do a merge-package, but I don't know if what I've done should fix this issue
<slangasek> james_w: and I guess the importer doesn't do v3 yet? :(
<micahg> james_w: ok, yeah, the error I get it about a tag, so I guess I'll just do a regular merge on the branches
#ubuntu-devel 2009-12-24
<shtylman> ccheney: ping
<slangasek> james_w: hmm; why do the tags for Debian versions not get copied to the Ubuntu branch?
<slangasek> (wasn't this done previously?  I patched submittodebian thinking it was the case, and apparently it stood up to at least /one/ of my tests...)
<marcosi> hi anyone know about ubuntu package for the spice protocol
<marcosi> hi anyone know about ubuntu package for the spice protocol
<marcosi> sorry for writing twice :(
<slangasek> marcosi: I've never even heard of a spice protocol; your question may be more appropriate for #ubuntu, but if you are referring to an /existing/ package, I think you should mention a package name
<nixternal> slangasek: any idea about the pbuilder-checkparams error in lucid?
<nixternal> using pbuilder-dist
<slangasek> nixternal: the aptitude assertion failure that was fixed last night?
<nixternal> hrmm
<marcosi> slangasek: www.spice-space.org
<slangasek> if not that one, then no, I don't know; I don't use pbuilder myself
<nixternal> pbuilder-checkparams: line 150: /dev/fd/62: No such file or directory
<marcosi> slangasek: redhat opened it, but i found there just .tar.gz
<nixternal> k, seems it is something with --logfile..I can disable that fo the time being
<slangasek> marcosi: ah; nope, not familiar with it and haven't heard of anyone working on packaging it for Ubuntu.  You can file a bug against Ubuntu using the "needs-packaging" tag to request it
<nixternal> Keybuk: /dev/fd/62 - this is an error some of us on lucid are getting when running pbuilder...I don't think it is related to pbuilder because, well google kind of says so...I am wondering if any of your recent changes (mountall or util-linux) might be causing this?
<nixternal> /dev/fd/62 as in no such file or directory error
<Keybuk> nixternal: yeah I saw that
<Keybuk> nixternal: cd /dev; MAKEDEV fd
<nixternal> cheater!
<nixternal> haha
<Keybuk> no, that's the fix
<nixternal> well I used that as a work around :)
<nixternal> hrmm
<nixternal> on my other box, i get '.udevdb or .udev implies active udev.  Aboring MAKEDEV invocation'
<Keybuk> yeah, needs to go in /etc/init/mounted-dev.conf
<nixternal> ahhh
<nixternal> right as you said it I saw that
<nixternal> exec /sbin/MAKEDEV std console fd ppp tun
<nixternal> that is there now, only console and ppp are being created
<Keybuk> no, you misunderstand
<Keybuk> that line isn't being run at all
<Keybuk> because /dev is not a tmpfs
<nixternal> ahhhh
<nixternal> gotcha now, thanks
<Keybuk> http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-branches/ubuntu/lucid/mountall/lucid/revision/252
<nixternal> Keybuk: just tested those changes, still didn't work
<ion> keybuk, nixternal: Yeah, MAKEDEV seems to quit before doing anything (including the fd action) if .udevdb or .udev exist.
<nixternal> there is a /dev/.udev
<Keybuk> yeah probably one held over from the initramfs
<Keybuk> can probably just remove that check from MAKEDEV :)
<ion> keybuk: Btw, about http://people.canonical.com/~scott/daily-bootcharts/ again, how about e.g. 1px thin rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.5) lines at budget times? They shouldnât interfere too much.
<Keybuk> they do make it noisy
<ccheney> shtylman: pong, sorry for slow response
 * ccheney heads to bed
<soreau> Hi all
<soreau> I was wondering (in karmic) what determines if the jockey-gtk list is populated or not?
<soreau> I used to think installing linux-restricted-modules helped but this isn't even a package in karmic anymore
<ion> keybuk: I wonder if there would be a speed benefit in nautilus not painting the desktop background twice (to the root window and to the desktop window) but instead painting the wallpaper to the root window once and painting the desktop window with alpha=0 if composite is available?
<Keybuk> ion: we've been talking about doing that for years
<Keybuk> there are even nautilus patches to do it somewhere
<slangasek> asac, fta: are we going to get dh_xulrunner in xulrunner-dev for lucid?  I think that would let us get ruby-gnome2 in sync, for starters
<micahg> slangasek: bug 498973, I'm going to mark wishlist triaged
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 498973 in xulrunner-1.9.1 "xulrunner-dev should provide dh_xulrunner" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/498973
<slangasek> micahg: cheers
<micahg> slangasek: asac's basically out till next week, I'll poke him about it then
<slangasek> yes, I wasn't expecting a terribly timely answer right now :)
<kees> why does vmbuilder hate me so?
<mneptok> Santa baby, I've been an awfully good goy. So why ... does vmbuilder hate me so? It's slow ... and usually lags my machine. It's mean ... can't we get an upgrade. And paid .. by sabdfl.
<mneptok> (sorry Eartha Kitt)
<kees> rofl
<Ryan52> why is inotify-tools 3.13-2 not in ubuntu?
<Ryan52> do I need to do a sync request?
<Ryan52> oh, duh, it's not in debian testing, nevermind.
<geser> Ryan52: if you think it's worth to get 3.13-2 it's possible to sync it from unstable (-> sync request)
<Ryan52> geser: it'll be in testing in 10 days anyway, I'm about to upload a fix for the bug that's keeping it out of testing.
<unimatrix> is it possible to print out a string that matches a regexp using sed? (not the whole input, just what was matched)
<Ryan52> unimatrix: just the lines that match, or the part of the lines that match?
<unimatrix> Ryan52: part of the lines
<Ryan52> unimatrix: not sure of the correct way, tho I'd just do this: sed -r 's/.*(regexp).*/\1/'
<Ryan52> (if that's possible in your situation)
<unimatrix> i've tried but it throws out "invalid reference \1 on `s' command's RHS"
<Ryan52> unimatrix: add the -r
<unimatrix> i did
<Ryan52> what's your exact command?
<unimatrix> echo "this is just a test" | sed -r 's/just/\1/'
<Ryan52> unimatrix: echo "this is just a test" | sed -r 's/.*(just).*/\1/'
<unimatrix> oh hey that worked
<unimatrix> thanks a lot :)
<Ryan52> exactly ;)
<Ryan52> np
#ubuntu-devel 2009-12-25
<cwillu_at_work> geez, is xsplash doing authentication junk beyond simply displaying a splash screen?
<cwillu_at_work> bare bones session via xinit, everything works until I include xsplash in the mix
 * cwillu_at_work redirects his rage towards matchbox-window-manager
<gp_> hello
<gp_> kjfksd
<gp_> sd
<gp_> fds
<gp_> f
<gp_> sdf
<Guest26450> Hi there!
<Guest26450> First of all Merry Christmas. I have a small problem: I'm looking for "archives.h" Does anybody know which package I have to install to use it?
<diwic> Guest26450: at packages.ubuntu.com, you can search for that file.
<crimsun> nothing in lucid at least
<Guest26450> I tried, but there is no match for "archives.h"
<diwic> Guest26450: do you have an idea, what kind of application are you trying to compile?
<Guest26450> It is a kind of cpio.
<crimsun> are you sure you don't mean "archive.h", e.g., libarchive-dev ?
<diwic> Otherwise I would say you should ask upstream about it
<Sarvatt> looks like dpkg has it in src/archives.h
<Sarvatt> (in the source package)
<diwic> Sarvatt: out of curiosity, how did you find it?
<Sarvatt> google :)
<diwic> ok :-)
<Sarvatt> in the changelog for dpkg 1.15.0 - Move struct pkg_deconf_list declaration to archives.h
<Guest26450> @crimsun: "archive.h" does not define "struct Exp_cpio_hdr" and this is what I need currently :-(
<diwic> Guest26450: is there something known as onnv or onnv-gate? See http://src.opensolaris.org/source/xref/onnv/onnv-gate/usr/src/head/archives.h
<pwnguin> anyone know what package openssl/rc4.h is in?
<crimsun> libssl-dev
<crimsun> seriously, apt-file or packages.uc
<pwnguin> hmm
<pwnguin> i was doing apt-cache searches on ssl header =/
<pwnguin> oh, i bet it was headers i was searching for, not header
<Guest26450> @diwic: Thanks. Now I can compile.
<PopoMan> hello
<PopoMan> i just updraded to torture Karmic Koala
<PopoMan> its not taking resolution
<micahg> PopoMan: try #ubuntu for support for Karmic
<lamont> after success on 2 i386 boxes with different graphics cards, I'm testing my "just nuke compiz-core to eliminate the random lockups" solution on a third.
<Amaranth> ha
 * Amaranth hasn't had a "random lockup" with i965 in about a year
<lamont> dell latitude d600, HP nc6000, and some random desktop
<lamont> iirc, SiS integrated graphics, rage, and someother thing
<lamont> not exactly new boxes
<Amaranth> ah
<lamont> the final laptop?  runs windows XP, but doesn't like hardy, jaunty, or karmic
<lamont> Via KM400 chipste
<Amaranth> I don't think sis can run compiz at al
<Amaranth> all*
<lamont> Amaranth: and yet we try
<lamont> thank you karmic
<Amaranth> Unless it locks up on caling glxinfo that's all we'll try
<Amaranth> calling*
<lamont> could be - effects aren't enabled, just the presense of compiz causes pain
<Amaranth> That is just not possible
<Amaranth> Unless, again, calling glxinfo breaks it
<lamont> must be, then
<Amaranth> What you're saying is that calling glxinfo breaks the driver in such a way that it doesn't freeze immediately but eventually locks up
<lamont> machine quits responding to ping
<lamont> anyway, we'll see if it survives better now that compiz is gonegonegone
<lamont> the two laptops just locked up hard in X
<lamont> during login
<lamont> which kinda made for "not fun"
<Amaranth> ok, that is more like what I'd expect
<Amaranth> thanks to "we must start in 10 seconds" we can't work around that in compiz either
<Amaranth> so the driver needs to be fixed
<lamont> a question during alternate install would do it for me - totally do not want ext4 yet
<lamont> which rules out ubiquity for an install method
<lamont> OTOH, i figure I'll prolly just teach things to pxeboot with preseeding
<lamont> if I do much more of this
<Amaranth> Feel free to add an option to the alternate install, if you can get away with it :)
<lamont> kids yammering for christmas presents time... afk
<lamont> pxeboot preseeds are easier
<slangasek> sladen: hi, I have a question about a mod you made to the Ubuntu zsync package some time ago, for which the documentation is rather sparse
<sladen> slangasek: Merry Christmas, and go ahead
<sladen> slangasek: if you can supply the corporate weight to get the necessary changes forced into Launchpad/Soyuz and such, that would be greate too
<slangasek> sladen: Merry Christmas :) - the question is about this 'global offset' option that was added... I'm not sure why it's needed, unless it was a workaround for the lack of 64-bit offset support?
<slangasek> (which is now fixed, separately)
<slangasek> sladen: is there a blueprint somewhere describing the changes for launchpad/soyuz?  I have only vague recollections of the discussions around apt-zsync; I guess it was one of the solutions liw was looking into, but I don't remember what the numbers looked like there
<slangasek> (I've been tending zsync only because people are using it for ISO syncing now, and support for DVD-sized images is a must-have)
<sladen> slangasek: the zlib/deflate stream in a .deb does not start at byte zero, but a couple of 2kB into the file (the .ar has three members, and we're after the offset of the data.tar)---IIRC, the offset was to sort that
<slangasek> sladen: ah, gotcha
<alex-weej> does anyone have any idea why user_xattr is not enabled by default?
<sladen> slangasek: Red Hat/Fedora have been tightening up their "embedded libraries" policy, and if we're lucky, they might be working on adding accessor functions to main zlib library to get at the private data (setting/getting bit offset, in addition to byte offset  (eg. start decoding at  1234 bytes and 5 bits);  this is important as some deflate commands always advance to an aligned byte offset
<sladen> slangasek: for Packages.gz the savings are 95%+  for .iso images the saving are good, and for .gz.deb files the saves are much lower because of the tools available
 * slangasek nods
#ubuntu-devel 2009-12-26
<pete83> hi! Does anyone know, when will avaliable the open source Skype?
<directhex> mixed source.
<tilt> hooray!
<pete83> Oh..sorry, I read somewhere in news (translate...to other language) "open source", but...OK.
<tilt> ever since I upgraded to karmic using 2.6.31 kernel, I have this weird effect of my cpufreq immediately being reset to 800-800MHz
<ScottK> pete83: They are opening the code for the U/I, but the network protocol stuff is still closed.
<tilt> I can reproduce this with 2.6.31 and 32, I also booted into .28, there, the problem does not occur
<tilt> cpu is a phenom 955
<tilt> currently, I build .32 with acpi debugging, I already have cpufreq debugging
<tilt> but maybe it's something I fail to comprehend, which is in userspace ...
<tilt> I already made sure cpufreqd and powernowd are not installed
<tilt> is there something else that enforces policies/frequencies? something with HAL or udev or whatever?
<pete83> ScottK, thx.
<tilt> I tried inotify on the /sys folder for the CPU, but it only gives me statstics, not accessing processes
<tilt> I will not file a bug as long as I have not confirmed it is a userspace /ubuntu patch related bug
<tilt> well, lemme try this debgugging kernel
<tilt> _if_ make-kpkg ever finishes on it using 800mhz ;)
<tilt> it's definately not acpi thermal zone :) cur_state is 0 with max_state=10 (maximum cooling)
#ubuntu-devel 2009-12-27
<ion> slangasek: Since you did that last ruby-gnome2 upload, you might be interested of https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ruby-gnome2/+bug/500297
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 500297 in ruby-gnome2 "Gst::Element#seek segfaults" [Undecided,New]
<xiven> Hey all
<xiven> Is there any help needed in ubuntu development?
<Shizuo> I am not quiet here
<Shizuo> azeem: I have a debian question
<LucidFox> "I'm trying to avoid using quilt to manage patches. After all, we are
<LucidFox> using Git. Using quilt on top of that seems a little strange. Quilt
<LucidFox> seems nothing more than git's rebase.
<LucidFox> "
<LucidFox> ^ Le sigh.
<stedy> hi could sombody give me some hints with pbuild? making a deb package and get a error saying :http://paste.ubuntu.com/345558/
<stedy> hi could sombody give me some hints with pbuild? making a deb package and get a error saying http://paste.ubuntu.com/345558/
<geser> you can't install outside the package (building) directory
<stedy> ok how could i manage that?
<geser> check if upstream makefile supports $DESTDIR (or similar)
<stedy> hmm im a newbee so... http://paste.ubuntu.com/347713/ thats minidlna's make file
<joaopinto> stedy, #ubuntu-motu is a better channel for packaging questions
<stedy> ok thx
<Chipzz> stedy: next time ask in #ubuntu-motu pls
<ScottK> crimsun: Looking at http://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=290450 it seems that --enable-video-ps3=no in configure would solve the powerpc FTBFS on libsdl1.2.  Thoughts?
<ubottu> bugs.gentoo.org bug 290450 in Library "media-libs/libsdl-1.2.14 fails on searching for libspe2.h" [Normal,Resolved: fixed]
<crimsun> sure
<crimsun> (feel free; I'm still fixing ALSA bugs)
<slangasek> ion: I'm only the one who did the last ruby-gnome2 upload because it needed a merge and I TIL in karmic when it was blocking a transition.  If *you* want to test and prepare a package for upload, I'm willing to sponsor it, then you can be TIL :)
<tilt> it's a good thing I did verify like 20 times if my strange cpufreq problem was really caused by ubuntu suerspace _or_ the kernel. turned out, after all, that my BIOS was too old for my CPU :))
#ubuntu-devel 2010-12-27
<jmehdi> Hi, could someone help me with wubi customization? (I've a problem to add my key to data/trustedkeys.gpg)
<maxo> how do I suggest an application be packaged and included in Ubuntu?
<SpamapS> maxo: there's a wiki page.. searching..
<ari-tczew> maxo: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopment/NewPackages
<SpamapS> that one
<SpamapS> ;)
<maxo> SpamapS, ari-tczew : thanks :-) the application runs on java, I don't know if that would make things more fiddly?
<SpamapS> maxo: java works great on ubuntu
<maxo> SpamapS, but in terms of packaging? I guess it would be OK? I'm not really sure how it works
<Riddell> maxo: as long as it can be built from source (without internet access) it should be fine, just needs someone who knows (or wants to learn) about packaging java apps
<SpamapS> maxo: we're working on making that easier actually.. https://launchpad.net/pkgme
<amorphous1> tkamppeter, ping
<SpamapS> pwin 3
<SpamapS> doh
<tkamppeter> amorphous1, hi
<amorphous1> tkamppeter, hello there
<amorphous1> tkamppeter, do you have 5 min?
<tkamppeter> amorphous1, what is the problem.
#ubuntu-devel 2010-12-28
<njin> hello, just a curiosity, why asterisk comment out lines with ; instead # ,is a devel. decision, language related or what else?
<PetrHH> Hello, I'm trying to create deb package for the first time. A got over a few problems but hang on this: dpkg-genchanges: error: badly formed line in files list file, line 1
<PetrHH> Anybody know where could be a problem?
<zyga> njin: perhaps lisp reference?
<njin> zyga: thanks
<njin> these lines are in the conf file
<njin> *files
<soren> njin: You could ask in an asterisk channel instead..
<njin> soren: thanks
<Hobbsee> PetrHH: wrong formatting of debian/changelog.  You should use dch (-i) to edit it.
<Hobbsee> rather than by hand
<PetrHH> Hobbsee, I already found the problem. Interesting is, that problem were in control file, I've chosen wrong category
<Hobbsee> PetrHH: ah.  didn't recall that genchanges looked at the control file
<PetrHH> Hobbsee, It is OK, thank you for response
<Hobbsee> np
<PetrHH> Hobbsee, Where could I find section list for Section in control file?
<Hobbsee> PetrHH: by googling debian packaging guide section, normally
 * Hobbsee heads to bed
<Hobbsee> it's the most comprehensive, useful place for all those fields
<PetrHH> Hobbsee, I've read it but sometimes that manual is not so clear for me
<zyga> james_w: hi, around?
<Keybuk> zyga: the open source process does work
<zyga> Keybuk: :-)
<zyga> Keybuk: did you commit the patch to dbus?
<zyga> Keybuk: nothing new on your discussion with Lennart
<zyga> cr3: hi
<cr3> zyga: hey dude, happy holidays!
<zyga> cr3: :-)
<zyga> single calm week of the year, eh?
<cr3> zyga: yep, enjoying every minute of it, checking email once in a while though
<cr3> zyga: otherwise, I won't get any work done before the rally
<zyga> nice
<zyga> I'm doing some hacking as always
<zyga> but focusing on doing stuff for myself and not strictly for work
<cr3> zyga: what kind of personal project(s) do you work on these days?
<zyga> not really personal, just dependencies I created while working on the real stuff
<cr3> zyga: have you looked into the go language yet, seems to be an interesting topic on the tech mailing list
<zyga> I've been moving them to pypi today
<zyga> cleaning stuff up
<zyga> using virtualenv for the first time :-)
<cr3> zyga: cool, what stuff on pypi?
<zyga> currently versiontools (just uploaded)
<zyga> but I'll transition over every other package
<zyga> so linaro-json linaro-dashboard-bundle
<zyga> django-testscenarios
<zyga> django-restricted-resource
<zyga> django-reports
<zyga> and finally launch-control and launch-control-tool
<zyga> pypi gives me two things that I love:
<zyga> update
<zyga> and virtualenv
<cr3> zyga: you're moving all that to pypi?
<zyga> yes
<zyga> but moving != removing lp.net tuff
<zyga> lp.net still hosts everything apart from tarballs
<zyga> pypi just has the releases and the meta-data so that I can setup.py any of my work on other systems without bothering with packaging
<zyga> (untill pkgme is ready for prime time)
<zyga> oh
<zyga> and pypi has one extra bit that lp lacks
<zyga> it can host documentation
<zyga> so I started building proper documentation for my projects
<zyga> and I can upload_sphinx them to pypi
<zyga> killer for me :-)
 * zyga always regarded lp as a poor place to host one's project
<zyga> it has tons of "stuff"
<zyga> but it lacks in few key details that matter for non-ubuntu-like projects
<cr3> zyga: that's unfortunate, couldn't lp.net be extended to do the documentation thing? sounds like a nice self contained project
<zyga> cr3: I asked for that a few months ago when linaro's input was taken to the stakeholder process for lp
<zyga> cr3: also the lack of need to open a browser is a big win for me
<zyga> I currently work from my efika, I removed all the heavy stuff I could and I work with pure console + screen
<cr3> zyga: as I once said, ask not what lp can do for you but what you can do for lp :)
<zyga> (it's crazy fast in that setup for A8)
<zyga> cr3: I'm not going to fool myself that lp.net can be extended by mere mortals
<zyga> cr3: especially since it's not a problem that needs solving
<cr3> zyga: you are not a mere mortal :) and if you find the project documentation feature useful on pypi, seems useful
<zyga> cr3: lp.net is driven by ubuntu's needs, that's to be expected, when/if the goals will change to directly compete with other "solutions" like that then it can be changed properly
<cr3> zyga: it is indeed driven by ubuntu's needs, but it's vocation is not necessarily limited to it
<cr3> zyga: ubuntu or no ubuntu, I agree with you that the documentation feature on pypi is pretty cool :)
<zyga> cr3: I _might_ be able to do that given lots of effort but frankly the last time I tried to run lp.net on my system it was really complex and I don't think that a hacky solution that I would be happy to work with would fly with upstream's coding quality standards. I don't have resources to go away for a month to fix lp.net to host my projects better.
<zyga> cr3: I know, I think it's quite strange that there is no 80/20 split
<zyga> or at least I don't see it
<zyga> 80% effor for ubuntu
<zyga> 20% for community
<zyga> but ask community first :)
<zyga> having a static website would solve lots of lots of grief I have with lp
<cr3> zyga: your concerns have already been expressed by others, you are not alone :) the lp.net folks totally realize the barrier to entry is very high, they call it the typo test, ie how long does it take to fix a typo in launchpad
<zyga> cr3: other than that there is pypi namespace - if I register my project there there will be no conflict in most python (hopefully) projects _and_ it gets picked up by pip
<zyga> cr3: lp.net _could_ do that but it's not clear how namespace resolution would work
<cr3> zyga: wgrant is one of those community members who's done tremendous work on lp.net, very cool dude
<zyga> wgrant: thanks :-)
<zyga> I would love to help in such effort (static pages for projects) but I'd rather help than lead as I'm not experienced with zope and other standard lp.net bits or the whole development policy
<cr3> zyga: the lp.net folks are making a lot of work to simplify the code base, we should start reaping the rewards in six months to a year. that's very short, time flies like an arrow...
 * cr3 hugs lifeless and the rest of the lp.net folks
<Keybuk> zyga: at least it has turned into the right discussion :p
<zyga> Keybuk: yes, but I see that's still a long way from "you and him are friends"
<Keybuk> heh, we are friends, Facebook says so :-)
<Keybuk> we just don't agree technically
<zyga> Keybuk: I'm curious what has to happen till you can commit that?
<zyga> perhaps can is the wrong word, 'will'
 * mrenouf|work *yawn*
<Keybuk> zyga: oh, next step is someone writes a new mail to start a new thread
<Keybuk> with the complete proposal
<Keybuk> I figure I'll do that later this week (so everyone's had a chance to comment)
<Keybuk> and then we discuss again, and a consensus forms, etc.
<zyga> Keybuk: complete proposal? Have you already commited the changes discussed in that thread?
<Keybuk> no, not yet
<Keybuk> now it looks like the existing systemd patches will be backed out of d-bus
<Keybuk> in favour of a shared implementation
<ion> nice
<zyga> Keybuk: insane in a way :)
<zyga> Keybuk: why did you not object earlier?
<Keybuk> at the time Lennart posted the patches, I wasn't subscribed
<zyga> ah I see
 * zyga is happy to see stuff go in the right direction
<zyga> I though about upstar/systemd duality
<Keybuk> but in a kooky way, maybe this way is better anyway
<zyga> that we could actually live with both systems indefinitely
<Keybuk> we could, it's going to be no different *really* than the fact we live with dpkg and rpm
<zyga> yeah
<Keybuk> the fact both are declarative configs is quite useful, it means in theory you could write stuff to convert between them
<zyga> (except that because of that upstream hate to package stuff for "linux" and just ship sources thus breaking the user-developer loop)
<Keybuk> (except maybe for the start/stop conditions, which is where the two differ anyway)
<zyga> ~ that's somewhat possible but it would be ugly
<Keybuk> zyga: right, but you can't package "for linux" already because of the deb/rpm divide
<Keybuk> so you're already packaging "for debian" or "for redhat"
<zyga> yes
<zyga> and that sucks :-)
<Keybuk> I'm reactivating my Debian membership and will be doing Upstart stuff there
<Keybuk> (too)
<ion> cool
<zyga> I'm interested if pkgme, our new tool still in progress might change that
<zyga> so that linux world would move closer to upstream packaging
<Keybuk> zyga: I doubt that'll ever happen
<Keybuk> it's not in distro interests to support it
<zyga> Keybuk: are you certain?
<zyga> Keybuk: do you remember mpt's presentation about 3rd party development for ubuntu
<zyga> Keybuk: if anything it screams 'we suck'
<zyga> Keybuk: and suggest 'we may have to change how things happen to fix that'
<ebroder> Keybuk: I could see motivation for distros to support it, if they can be convinced that it would improve the overall Linux app ecosystem
<Keybuk> sure, I enjoyed mpt's presentation greatly
<Keybuk> and ev's
<Keybuk> but distros exist right now to provide lock-in
<Keybuk> if you could sort the packaging problem such that upstreams did their own packaging
<zyga> Keybuk: that's not really true, that's a side effect of our technology
<Keybuk> what would there be left for a distro to *do* ?
<zyga> Keybuk: package the core platform
<ebroder> That seems like a narrow view. I'd argue that distros exist to provide cohesion
<Keybuk> the core platform?
<Keybuk> there is no core platform
<Keybuk> Linux is simply a collection of upstreams
<zyga> Keybuk: there would be, defined by each distro
<Keybuk> (and you forget, distros invented packaging, not the other way around)
<zyga> Keybuk: then upstreams would dedice if they want to package for that core platform
<zyga> Keybuk: not true
<zyga> Keybuk: distros formalized packaging beyond all hope
<zyga> Keybuk: the act of distributing software was older than first linux distro
<zyga> Keybuk: and worked differently
<Keybuk> the act of distributing source was
<zyga> Keybuk: not soure
<zyga> Keybuk: packaging is not about source really
<zyga> (well unfortunately too I guess)
<zyga> Keybuk: but nobody is keenly interested in distributing source
<zyga> Keybuk: do you see anyone being particularly happy that they can distribute source to anyone?
<Keybuk> upstreams quite like it
<Keybuk> it's minimum touch
<zyga> Keybuk: the true distribution is to the end user
<zyga> Keybuk: upstreams hope to reach their audience but in our current model that involves going via the distro
<zyga> at least, on linux
<zyga> Keybuk: what do you think about KDE shipping _official_ packages for windows and osx
<Keybuk> depends which upstream really
<Keybuk> that's part of our problem
<zyga> Keybuk: it's an example of upstream packaging and distribution that bypasses the middleman
<Keybuk> we think all upstreams want the same thing :p
<Keybuk> quite a lot of our upstreams are actually Fedora :p
<zyga> that's true
<zyga> heh :-)
<zyga> yeah it's not a simple problem
<zyga> but I think the common truth is that we have to change something to get that nice explosion curve of new software
<zyga> we don't have to forfit our current model but we should extend it to new use cases that take distribution out of the way
<zyga> essentially the way the vast majority of software (open or not) used today is distributed differently and for a reason
<zyga> while the appstore/gateway concept is cool and might again change things
<zyga> our appstore sucks :)
<maco> *snort*
<maco> i think it's funny how new people whined about repos for years, and then apple does it on the iphone and suddenly repos, oops i mean "appstores" are cool!
<zyga> nope
<zyga> maco: apple did not do "a repository"
<maco> thats all it is
<zyga> maco: they did something quite different in the way it works
<maco> the difference being ya pay?
<maco> to the user, there's no difference
<zyga> oh please, think not mock
<maco> except paying ;)
<zyga> sure there is
<zyga> the difference is that there is no concept of a depdency on anything except platform version
<maco> there are two ways users know to get software:   1) search the internet and download from some random webpage  or 2) use a bit of software the lists available programs and tell it to fetch them
<maco> appstore & synaptic are both #2
<zyga> and that the upstream ship binaries not source, if your binary matches the rigid form that is required then you are allowed in (I'm referring to filesystem structure, not the review process)
<maco> oh you're just talking about style of compiling! static versus linked
<zyga> maco: except that our model makes tons of problems that they don't have
<zyga> maco: again, a model that we use does not scale
<maco> and saves gigs of hard disk space
<zyga> maco: gigs of space is not the problem
<maco> and tons of bandwidth
<zyga> maco: I doubt that code is > 1% of the overall app size on mobile platforms
<zyga> the difference is that you don't solve the packaging problem
<zyga> there is no insane complex policy
<zyga> no insane manual review
<zyga> just automatic and very constrained process
<zyga> and you just delegated packaging to upstreams
<maco> i rather like not having each package be several hundred megs due to static compiling. i only install packages that are fewer than 3 mb ordinarily, otherwise i have to go find some other internet to "borrow" if i want it to take less than a day to download
<zyga> maco: they are not several 100s megs really
 * ogra curses the lucid kernel
<zyga> maco: because the platform has virtually everything that you may want to use in an average app, the rest is just your code most of the time
<zyga> maco: it's not a model where lots of our stuff fits because we like to ship 4 different things that do foo while they bless one and force you to use it but it seems to work
<maco> im thinking of those dmg packages on osx. they are usually MUCH larger than packages im used to seeing
<qb89dragon> hey, I'd be grateful if someone could advise me how to modify cupsd.conf during the install of a deb package in my rules file. Is it simply adding it in there, or is there some process for registering the changes made with dpkg?
<zyga> maco: but to say that our model is the same is to ignore the problem
<zyga> maco: I'm not sure that that works on osx, perhaps because they still use fat binaries?
<ebroder> zyga: No, maco's right on that point in particular. OS X packages are big because they ship all their dependencies with them (i.e. a Qt app comes with a copy of Qt)
<zyga> ebroder: that's true
<zyga> ebroder: on osx you either use cocoa or bundle
<zyga> that's a limitation
<zyga> but again it's something they did to vastly simplify their platform
<zyga> on the mobile you don't want 10s of toolkits
<zyga> and version interedependenices between them and all apps, it's just a waste of qa and space
<zyga> observe how despite this limiattion there has been an explosion of apps on both iOS and android
<zyga> where both use identical (no deps) model
<zyga> and it has promoted innovation and third party development with 1st party packaging
<zyga> (where 1st party is the same 3rd party I mentioned, sorry about that sounding oodd)
<ebroder> zyga: I'm not disagreeing with you in general
<zyga> ebroder: in our world it could also work
<zyga> ebroder: where we would extend current methods with a hybrid platform
<zyga> you either use the old methods and packaging is a little more complex
<zyga> or this is the "base platform" we ship and you have to bundle against that without deps
<zyga> I thin that 2nd option is the one non-open aps would thrive on
<zyga> from the user point of view _nothing_ changed
<zyga> from developer's point of view it's a whole new world
<zyga> no deps, no conflicts, no alternatives, no triggers, no scripts, atomiciy, need I conitnue?
<zyga> all of that are improvements
<zyga> perpahps the first comma should be replaces with =>
<ebroder> That I disagree with. I don't think we need to drop the concept of dependencies. If we do that, then an app developer can *only* use the libraries that we ship as part of the base system. We'd end up under pressure to include libraries and such just for 3rd party apps.
<ebroder> Dependencies are good. And they can be largely be automatically calculated
<ebroder> Even build-deps can be automatically calculated for many apps
<zyga> ebroder: that's not the problem
<zyga> ebroder: the problem is that we also ship _ONE_ version of a package
<zyga> ebroder: and that just breaks things
<zyga> if A nees foo 1 and B needs foo 2
<ebroder> Yeah, but there are *really* strong advantages, too
<zyga> (and we don't ship libfoo*)
<zyga> ebroder: I agree our model has upsides
<cdbs> I can see many recent uploads stating: Fix build failure due to binutils-gold , and it turns out that the package doesn't even *use* ld.gold, nor does it have binutils-gold in its b-d. Is the uploader's fault here, or am I misunderstanding?
<ebroder> Security support, for instance
<cdbs> doko_: ^
<zyga> ebroder: that's true but only to a point
<ebroder> zyga: I think that most people who ship bundled libraries don't even think about or are aware of security issues in those libraries, with the exception of the giant players like Google
<zyga> ebroder: when the link between upstram and downstream is maitained by a distro
<zyga> ebroder: then if the distro chokes with the amount the process stops working and quality falls
<penguin42> cdbs: I think there are moves to make sure everything works with gold
<zyga> ebroder: in a hybrid model we would have market forces impacting quality
<zyga> ebroder: and thus you would get crappy stuff _and_ good stuff
<ebroder> zyga: I don't think market forces are good enough to ensure some factors of quality
<zyga> ebroder: right now you just get average stuff, distro is not perfect - we cannot maintain the universe for examlpe
<cdbs> penguin42: So, ubuntu aims to move to gold one day?
<zyga> ebroder: sure they are, apple seems to do just fine, ;-)
<zyga> ebroder: it's not a simple discussion, I don't mean to say that it would work better with code security
<kklimonda> ebroder: and yet it works for windows ans osx
<penguin42> cdbs: I've heard it suggested for some platforms; not sure what the current story is
<ebroder> kklimonda: No, people accept the way it's done on Windows and OS X. That's different
<zyga> ebroder: but that it would change the dynamics in our favour
<zyga> ebroder: all depends on how you set our goals
<zyga> ebroder: if our goal is to have uber security then you have to just stick to main
<zyga> ebroder: and current rules
<zyga> ebroder: _and_ have enough mainitaners talking with upstream
<zyga> ebroder: if our goal is to grow then this model will not work as well as a hybrid model
<zyga> ebroder: people on those other platforms still have quality problems but most of that is IMHO a derivative of the base platform
<ebroder> zyga: Anyway, I think you're in general oversimplifying the situation. But I need to step away for a bit to focus on this assembly I'm trying to understand :)
<zyga> hehe
<zyga> ebroder: I don't think that it's possible to understand and predict this without trying to do it really
<doko_> cdbs: gold has the same semantics as ld --no-add-needed, see http://wiki.debian.org/ToolChain/DSOLinking
<zyga> doko_: --no-add-needed or --no-as-needed?
<doko_> zyga: --no-add-needed, please see the wiki page
<zyga> doko_: Interesting read, thanks!
<xnox> maco, ping =)
<maco> what i do?
<randomOfAmber> hello world :D
<randomOfAmber> oops
<xnox> maco, thanks a lot for the comment on my blog post "how to get a job in FOSS"
<xnox> I can't believe the famous maco spared a comment =)
<maco> ahahahahahaha
<xnox> You rock ;-)
<maco> you know mako and i are two different people right?
<xnox> Yes.
<xnox> You are famous enough for me ;-)
<maco> thanks
<xnox> It sucks that the path into FOSS is via unpaid internships based on all the comments I have gathered.
<maco> unpaid internships are the norm in the US
<maco> into ANY field, unpaid internships are just what students do
 * micahg thought GSoC was paid
<xnox> My job post did generate invite to join a certain company in the UK which does Linux Support
<maco> yeah GSoC is paid
<xnox> micahg, GSoC was paid =)
<ebroder> maco: I don't agree with that. There are some industries where unpaid internships are standard, but I don't think that's the case for software dev
<ebroder> Though FOSS dev may be a subset where that is the norm
<maco> micahg: thats why everyone wants to do gsoc
<xnox> Igalia, Collabora, Codethink & Canonical - is all there is, it seems in the EU
<maco> ebroder: depends if its at a tech company or doing tech for a nontech place i think
<maco> ebroder: i got paid interning at a security company after 2nd year, but doing  web dev for a newspaper during 2nd year i didnt
<xnox> I had quite high paid engineering internships / full-time jobs. (E.g. I was paid as a student more than graduates) but it wasn't related to Electronics nor Software Development. Which is what my degree is in.
<xnox> and what i want to do now.
<maco> changing focus is tough :-/
<xnox> maco, Yeap....
<maco> i keep getting "hey wanna be a sysadmin?!" and im like "no, im a programmer" "but you have sysadmin experience" "because i wasnt a good enough programmer back then!"
<xnox> micahg, /usr/lib/pkgconfig/libxul-embedding.pc is broken by the way =) in Natty / xul20
<micahg> xnox: yes, I forgot about that, you filed a bug, right?
<xnox> micahg, han =) was too lazy will file now....
<micahg> xnox: ok, thanks
<maco> xnox: did you just spell "nah" backwards?
<xnox> maco =) yeap
 * xnox is just back from ER and I'm on loads of painkillers.
<xnox> When I start my own company i will do paid FOSS internships.
<ebroder> xnox: I remember seeing your blog post but can't seem to find it at the moment. Have you looked into, say, Red Hat? I would have thought they had offices in Europe
<xnox> ebroder, I have applied to Red Hat. They are based in Czech Republic for software stuff. The interships are to do with Java and their java apps like JBoss
<ebroder> Oh, huh. That's kind of unfortuate
<xnox> which are proprietarish
<xnox> I have also applied to Intel/Nokia < MeeGo.
 * xnox there are no internships with Linaro.....
<maco> xnox: linaro is hiring for a few mentors though
<maco> xnox: they need people who can show folks from big hardware companies the ropes when it comes to free software development, using launchpad & bzr, etc.
<maco> (at least, when i talked to them at uds they were...)
<xnox> Yeap I so job postings for mentors. But they don't seems to go away. Either they want a lot of people like that or they can't get them.
<xnox> maco, I'm jealous about UDS =) I haven't been to any yet.
<maco> xnox: i actually interviewed for one of those spots while at UDS, but im pretty solidly application-level so didnt get it. if you know hardware-level stuff though, you'll be in better shape
<maco> i think theyre not going away because theyre not finding people who understand hardware AND are familiar with canonical's development tools...other than the folks they took from other canonical teams
<xnox> they stuff they taught me in uni was - outdated, to say the least. I can play around with oscilliscope and do basic troubleshooting. But I haven't done debbugging on hardware with e.g. JTAG
<xnox> hmmm....
<xnox> I did apply for internships with ARM. If I get that maybe I'll be able to go for Linaro next ;-)
<xnox> maco, what's typical response time? Russians replied in 2 working days for all my applications. UK/EU seems to take 4 weeks +
<maco> canonical's is supposed to be 3 weeks
<maco> dunno about elsewhere. in the US, you often only get told "yes" and are simply ignored for "no"
<xnox> maco, did you apply for the Gnome Internship - Outreach for Women?
<maco> no
<maco> im a kde user...
<xnox> maco, same here in EU so far. with responses. It's like I tell them everything about myself and my life and they don't even bother to reply.
<maco> tbh, ive not done job applications much before. i put my cv on monster and then i get contacted by others
<xnox> maco, You could have been working on Freedesktop.org stuff =0) i have on and off relationship with kde ;-)
<xnox> maco, good tactic =) I was picky so far about what I want to do and with who. But money is running out.
<xnox> micahg, why is mozillateam not called ~ubuntu-mozilla like all the other ubuntu teams?
<micahg> xnox: idk, maybe it was before there was a convention
<maco> ubuntu-us-districtofcolumbia was ~dcteam originally
<maco> (the docs say it should be ubuntu-us-{name of state} so we joked about ubuntu-us-werenotastateyetbutmaybesomeday and such)
<xnox> maco, awesome love it =)
<xnox> I'm the only Ubuntu Member from Latvia =)
<xnox> There is one Debian Developer from Latvia though.
<xnox> micahg, will there be a package xulrunner-2.0-dev-gtk3 ?
<micahg> xnox: not likely
<xnox> micahg, is it possible?
<micahg> xnox: idk, why do you need it
<micahg> xul20 is GTK2 only
<xnox> micahg, xiphos is a gtk app that uses xulrunner. We are half way gtk3 ready
<micahg> xnox: ok, but xulrunner itself isn't
<xnox> and now I have realised that we might have to do webkit transition to build against gtk3.
 * xnox oh the joy of doing a gtk3-webkit-gsettings release which will not be installable on pretty much any of the LTS releases.
<xnox> micahg, Bug #695166 I have subscribed chrisccoulson as well =) since it's his code.
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 695166 in xulrunner-2.0 (Ubuntu) "/usr/lib/pkgconfig/libxul-embedding.pc is broken =)" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/695166
<micahg> xnox: ok, if I don't fix it before next week, he'll probably take care of it
<xnox> micahg, is it possible to use a recipe to test-build xulrunner? My machine cannot build xulrunner in any reasonable amount of days.
<micahg> xnox: you can use a PPA
<xnox> micahg, still have to generate source package =) well at least my machine should manage to do that.
<micahg> xnox: yeah, that's not too bad if you're not unpacking it
#ubuntu-devel 2010-12-29
<zyga> hello
<elmo> ion: ping
<siretart> kenvandine_: ping re bug #690296
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 690296 in x264 (Ubuntu Maverick) "libx264 2:0.98.1653+git88b90d9-3ubuntu1 messes up bitrate when encoding (at least using mencoder)" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/690296
<ion> elmo: pong
<elmo> ion: hi - I was looking for some help debugging mountall issues, but I figured it out enough to get booted, so I think I'm good thanks
#ubuntu-devel 2010-12-30
<Leon_Nardella> Hi. There's a bug in Natty's cmake (2.8.3) regarding asm support to which I seem to have a working patch and packages built in a PPA. Any pointers on how should I go about trying to get it accepted?
<Leon_Nardella> It's actually fixed in cmake's git already. Should be fixed in 2.8.4.
<Takyoji> Anyone happen to know the package maintainer of the 'gogoc' package? It just says "Ubuntu Developers <ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com>" for the maintainer.
<micahg> Takyoji: Ubuntu doesn't have maintainers
<nigelb> Takyoji: Craig Small <csmall@debian.org> --> its a package syned from debian.
<nigelb> *synced
<Takyoji> ahh
<nigelb> Also, Ubuntu doesn't really have the concept of maintainers.
<nigelb> Generally, you guess based on who touched in last in the changelog.
<micahg> Takyoji: do you have a bug?
<Takyoji> Yes; it just hangs using 100% CPU
<Takyoji> I've tried all suggestions and either: get errors and it dies, or hangs and doesn't terminate via "service gogoc stop", unless if SIGKILL is sent
<Takyoji> Shall I submit it to: https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/gogoc/ ?
<Takyoji> There's some bugs on there that haven't been touched for months.
<Takyoji> as it seems
<micahg> Takyoji: feel free, but there's no guarantee it will be looked at, if that happens, feel free to ask in #ubuntu-bugs to have it triaged
<Takyoji> I actually just emailed the package maintainer and hopefully I should get a response in a few days or less.
<micahg> Takyoji: Debian maintainers usually prefer bugs in the BTS, not direct e-mails
<Takyoji> Which BTS though? Launchpad, or?
<cdbs> Takyoji: the debian BTS at bugs.debian.org
<Takyoji> alrighty
<Takyoji> Thank you all for your assistance.
<cdbs> Takyoji: You may file a bug at Launchpad, but the Debian Maintainer usually prefers bugs at bugs.d.o
<cdbs> Ubuntu-specific bugs at LP
<Takyoji> as I would assume
<JackyAlcine> C++ is fun.
<WasserDragoon> hi there, i'm building deb packages and want to know how to exclude .svn folders (without deleting them) and without using --exclude option, because i will upload it to launchpad and can't manipulate the build command there
<WasserDragoon> maybe there's a chance to list these folders in a file to exclude them from packaging?
<WasserDragoon> im back in ~40min
<mterry> WasserDragoon, use -i and -I arguments to debuild to not put common VCS folders and such in the source package
<russellb> WasserDragoon: alternatively, instead of using an svn checkout, you could just use "svn export" and not have the .svn directories there in the first place
<ricotz> chrisccoulson, hello :), is there a ppa with a firefox 4.0 beta 8 package available for natty?
<JackyAlcine> Guys, I need clarification; what's the different between a shared library and a static library?
<ion> One reads the topic and the other doesnât.
<JackyAlcine> ?
<JackyAlcine> Oops, sorry.
<ion> Statically linked libraries are copied to the executable, dynamically linked are loaded from a library path in runtime.
<JackyAlcine> Okay, that clarifies a lot; thanks ion
<micahg> ricotz: the firefox-next PPA should have it tomorrow, I uploaded it last week, but it FTBFS and I haven't had time to fix it yet
<ricotz> micahg, great, thanks!
<chrisccoulson> ricotz, i will upload it to natty soon too, but i'm on vacation atm
<chrisccoulson> i might do it tonight if i get some time
<ricotz> chrisccoulson, hi, nice, i am desperately waiting for an update since b7 is quite buggy ;)
<chrisccoulson> ricotz, ok, i'll try and do it later
<micahg> chrisccoulson: if you like I can upload to natty, I was waiting on teh translations stuff
<chrisccoulson> micahg, yeah, that's what i still need to do
<ricotz> thanks you, guys
<WasserDragoon> russellb: sorry, i was busy till now. thanks, didn't know about this
<russellb> you're welcome.  :-)
<WasserDragoon> but i thought there could be a more native method
<Leon_Nardella> Hi, all. Who should I ping to have a bug in Natty's cmake looked on? I seem to even have a fix for it (although I wouldn't call myself a dev).
<ari-tczew> Leon_Nardella: report a bug - $ ubuntu-bug cmake
<Leon_Nardella> ari-tczew, Done that already.
<ari-tczew> Leon_Nardella: and have you got prepared a fix? patch?
<Leon_Nardella> ari-tczew, Yes. I found the fix in upstream's git and extracted the patch.
<Leon_Nardella> Even built a package in a PPA to test it.
<ari-tczew> Leon_Nardella: you should find sponsorship. more on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SponsorshipProcess
<ari-tczew> in shortcut: subscribe ubuntu-sponsors if you have prepared a debdiff or bzr branch
<crimsun> Leon_Nardella: cool, thanks for your efforts. I think in this case, because there isn't an existing Ubuntu delta from the Debian source package in experimental, it's nicer to get it into Debian's source package so it can be synced to Ubuntu.
<Leon_Nardella> crimsun, Yes, I realize that. The thing is that I don't use Debian. Really not used to it. I hoped someone who knows Debian's internals could take it for spin.
<crimsun> Leon_Nardella: that's fine. We'll work on getting submitting it to Debian first.
<crimsun> s/getting//
<Leon_Nardella> That's lp#695335, by the way.
<Leon_Nardella> crimsun, Is a merge proposal the only way to get a sponsor? I took look on lp:ubuntu/cmake and it doesn't seem to match the package in Natty, so I can't work on it.
<crimsun> Leon_Nardella: no, any diffs are ok
<Leon_Nardella> crimsun, Sorry. There's a section in that wiki page about importing from Debian. I should've read till the end. ;)
<kklimonda> is there a reason we ship busybox with su and sulogin compiled in, but without suid bit set for the executable?
<soreau> Why is ubuntu kernel built without snd-pcm-oss.ko? Can't the module be built and just blacklisted?
#ubuntu-devel 2010-12-31
<soreau> I see this but no solution https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux/+bug/579300 and no real reason to disable this module (?)
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 579300 in linux (Ubuntu) "Please disable CONFIG_SOUND_OSS* and CONFIG_SND_*OSS*" [Wishlist,Fix committed]
<soreau> There is no evidence of this 'OSSp' I can find
<lamont> meh. how do I get udev to pretend that a particular device just got added and re-run the rules (so I can see if I got this right)?
<kklimonda> soreau: have you tried using padsp?
<elmo> lamont: udevadm trigger ?
<lamont> elmo: yeah... it's the arguments to that where I'm hitting challenges... though if udevadm trigger with no more args triggers all of them, then my rules skilz are sadly lacking
<elmo> lamont: IME no arguments does it all
<lamont> meh.  I suck
<lamont> ta
<lamont> meh.  spelling hard.
<Keybuk> huh, that was funny
<virtuald> lastlog ipv6
<soreau> kklimonda: Yes I have, it does not work. I tried running enemy territory and it just says http://pastebin.com/xrA4ivj6 With pasuspender it says it can't find /dev/dsp and with LD_PRELOAD=libpulsedsp.so it just says "Sorry but your soundcard can't do this". I believe this message is coming from the app but it has worked on this machine before without pulseaudio (on previous versions of ubuntu)
<kklimonda> soreau: are you, by any chance, running 64bit system?
<soreau> kklimonda: no
<soreau> The pulseaudio guys said snd-pcm-oss should probably exist (blacklisted) so there is a fallback for pasuspender
<kklimonda> soreau: there is also http://nullkey.ath.cx/~stuff/et-sdl-sound/ which do some magic to Q3, and few other games on its engine.
<soreau> kklimonda: That gave "------- sound initialization ------- SDL audio driver initializing... SDL_AudioDriverName() = NULL"
<soreau> and no audio
<kklimonda> soreau: the reason for oss removal has been consolidating audio stack in Ubuntu (or however one could call it), I guess just blacklistingthose modules doesn't change much as they would still have to be maintained.
<kklimonda> soreau: have you used the script from this page that sets SDL_AUDIODRIVER?
<soreau> kklimonda: Not yet, let me try
<soreau> kklimonda: It still says "SDL_AudioDriverName() = NULL" and there is no audio
<kklimonda> soreau: you can tweak SDL_AUDIODRIVER, make sure you have right packages installed (libsdl1.2debian-esd or libsdl1.2debian-pulse depending on backend). If it still doesn't work then it's google time
<soreau> kklimonda: Ok, it works now that I selected pulse as the driver
<soreau> Thanks a lot, I should add this to that report
<soreau> kklimonda: The only thing is, there's slight echoing and popping throughout the game
<ResQue> what game are we talking about?
<soreau> ResQue: enemy territory and probably any other that use /dev/dsp
<soreau> The only thing is, there is slight yet consistent cracking and echoing throughout the game
<kklimonda> well, the seriousness of this particular problem differs from one title to another.
<kklimonda> you can run some old games, without any problems, using padsp
<micahg> ricotz: FF4.0b8 is building now
<ricotz> micahg, great :), but can you add a natty build to the ppa too?
<micahg> ricotz: oh, forgot about that, the problem is the natty build isn't the same as the rest of the builds in the PPA, does that matter? (i.e. it's firefox-4.0 not firefox)
<ricotz> micahg, oh, i see, it should be "firefox" of course
<micahg> ricotz: I can't do that easily because of how different the branches are, things will break badly
<ricotz> micahg, ok, i will wait then
<micahg> ricotz: if you want a firefox-4.0 unbranded to play with while waiting, I can do that pretty easily
<ricotz> micahg, alright please do
<micahg> ricotz: uploaded, should be about 2.5 hrs
<ricotz> micahg, thanks, you uploaded it to firefox-next?
<micahg> ricotz: unless I messed something up, let me make sure I got a confirmation
<micahg> oops, one too many i's in the PPA name :-/, let's try again
<micahg> ricotz: now it's building :
<ricotz> good :)
<tiox> Hey. I just popped in to ask about where the location of things like the gears icon for Run is at. I figured the Ubuntu developers would know best the obscure location of such system icons.
<tiox> Does anyone want to help me? I just want to know the location to certain system icons like the gears for run application.
<tiox> I use Ubuntu Desktop Edition x64
<micahg> tiox: try /usr/share/icons
<tiox> Thanks a bunch, I'll poke around through there/
<WasserDragoon> hello everyone, i would like to build some packages with a meta package that installs all other packages but when i'm trying to install i get this error message: http://pastebin.com/rfCKcqzd
<WasserDragoon> this is my control file: http://pastebin.com/uygF8f44 what's wrong there?
<Jacruth> hi guys
<Jacruth> so, If I want to install Ubuntu in my mobile, must I use Ubuntu Netbook Edition?
<WasserDragoon> no idea?
<Jacruth> whatever, ubuntu-mobile is not maintained?
<hallyn> Jacruth: what sort of mobile?  a mobile phone?  or a netbook?
<Jacruth> uhm... a toshiba portege G810 lol
<Jacruth> mobile phone
<Jacruth> :3
<hallyn> heh, then i've not done that, sorry.  i thought about doing the zubuntu thing on a zaurus, but never did
<Jacruth> zaurus?
<Jacruth> aha
<WasserDragoon> can someone tell me what to modify in my control file to get the packages work?
<Jacruth> WasserDragoon, which packages?
<Jacruth> hallyn, have you heard something about Kubuntu Mobile?
<WasserDragoon> i would like to build some packages with a meta package that installs all other packages but when i'm trying to install i get this error message: http://pastebin.com/rfCKcqzd
<WasserDragoon> this is my control file: http://pastebin.com/uygF8f44 what's wrong there?
<Jacruth> in deustch :S
<WasserDragoon> Jacruth: oh sorry *lol* just a moment, i'll translate it
<Jacruth> what does this means?
<Jacruth>        apache-zeta-components : HÃ¤ngt ab von: apache-zeta-components-mvc-template-tiein (= ppa0+svn1053340) soll aber nicht installiert werden
<WasserDragoon> Jacruth: just a moment pls, have to find the english version of this text
<WasserDragoon> something like depends: apache-zeta-components-mvc-template-tiein (= ...) but will not be installed
<WasserDragoon> "depends on '...' but it will not be installed" ;-)#
<geser> most likely there is a conflict at some point of the dependency chain
<WasserDragoon> geser: but i can't see any conflict, that's why i pasted my control file ;-)
<geser> it hasn't to be a conflict that high on the dependency chain
<geser> try installing both your meta package and the mentioned package together (with apt-get) to see where the conflict really is
<geser> you might need to repeat this with adding additional packages till you get to the real conflict
<WasserDragoon> apache-zeta-components-template (= ppa0+svn1053340) isn't installable
<WasserDragoon> ok it seems there's no package built with this name :-( maybe some errors with debuild
<WasserDragoon> urgs there's no package template, there's a module template which is in the package output lol thanks
<hallyn> Jacruth: no, i hadn't.  hm, and runs on n900
<ari-tczew> All the best in 2011. See you next year!
#ubuntu-devel 2011-01-01
<yonij> Hi..could sm1 tell me how can a remote share memory....is there any way other that DSM... ?..pls reply ..am not sure if this is the right place to ask....pls redirect if am wrong..thnx in advance
<yonij> *remote process
<ResQue> hapy new year all
<daedaluz> is it known that current kernel errs on hpet timer? after disabling it with "hpet=disable" @ grub, all my video and audio programs disappeared
<daedaluz> uhm.. programs = problems
<c_korn> Happy new year!
<WasserDragoon> hello everyone, i'm trying to use symlinks in my deb package and did the ln stuff in the install target of the rules file as mentioned here: http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1558361 do i need to add the symlink files in the (pkg.)install file as well?
<cjwatson> WasserDragoon: why not just use pkg.links instead?  man dh_link
<WasserDragoon> cjwatson: wow thanks, that's a great suggestion ;-)
<cjwatson> though if you wrote it as RainCT suggested, creating the symlinks under debian/PKG/, you shouldn't need to tell dh_install anything
<cjwatson> dh_link is less verbose though
<WasserDragoon> cjwatson: i don't need verbosity, it's easy so it's great :-)
<WasserDragoon> cjwatson: oh i guess it's a better way to scan for *_autoload.php files and create the symlinks, so i don't need to hardcode the file names
<WasserDragoon> so the ln command in the install target is better
<cjwatson> so then just make sure that the symlink is created under debian/PKG/ for whatever value of PKG is appropriate, and that you're using a non-ancient debhelper compat level
<cjwatson> (although it is possible to generate .links files dynamically; I've done that on occasion)
<WasserDragoon> compat level is 7
<cjwatson> yes, I meant greater than 1 :-)
<cjwatson> if it still doesn't work, put your rules file (or better your entire source package) somewhere where we can see it
<WasserDragoon> i have too many packages and i can't dynamically allocate which folder is which package, so i think finally it's the only solution to do it with .links files (static)
<cjwatson> you can always mix and match if it helps and isn't too confusing
<cjwatson> as long as it all ends up in the temporary filesystem tree, it doesn't really matter how it got there
<WasserDragoon> cjwatson: http://pastebin.com/U9KqkGam
<WasserDragoon> apache-zeta-components is the meta package to install *-archive, and so on
<cjwatson> eek.  use line breaks :-)
<cjwatson> (you'll need a \ at the end of continued lines, of course, but it would still make it a lot more readable)
<WasserDragoon> cjwatson: right, i got some strange errors using \ at line ends, it worked in just one line ;-)
<cjwatson> it's full of bashisms, so will fail if /bin/sh isn't bash
<cjwatson> test == should be =
<cjwatson> try putting set -x; at the start of that long line to see what it's doing
<WasserDragoon> so maybe i should set SHELL to be /bash/sh'?
<cjwatson> better to just use portable shell
<cjwatson> test = rather than == should be enough, that looks like the only problem of that kind
<WasserDragoon> here it is http://pastebin.com/5kzE4v13
<cjwatson> the rest looks structurally ok; hard to tell more without knowing the package bette
<cjwatson> r
<WasserDragoon> ok i'll try to build the packages and if it doesn't work i can upload the whole stuff somewhere
<cjwatson> you should put semicolons after the assignments, the ln command, and fi
<cjwatson> backslash-newline just replaces whitespace, it doesn't substitute for the semicolon too
<WasserDragoon> cjwatson: /bin/sh: Syntax error: "&&" unexpected
<cjwatson> oh, and after the if too
<cjwatson> basically restore all the semicolons you removed
<WasserDragoon> but still do \ after if, ln anf fi?
<cjwatson> sure, the backslash-newline isn't part of shell syntax, it effectively reduces to a single space
<WasserDragoon> cjwatson: http://pastebin.com/45ELFNh3
<cjwatson> you haven't put them all back - check carefully
<WasserDragoon> after the "for"
<cjwatson> yep
<WasserDragoon> cjwatson: i need to create the autoload directory first in debian/pkg/usr/share/php/zeta right?
<WasserDragoon> cjwatson: mkdir "debian/apache-zeta-components${INSTDIR}/autoload" before for loop
<cjwatson> yeah, I'd use mkdir -p
<WasserDragoon> ok i need to use .links files
<WasserDragoon> where do i need to add dh_links then? after dh_install?
<cjwatson> you already have it.  dh_link
<WasserDragoon> oh, right xD
<WasserDragoon> how the links file should look like, just each line: source dst?
<WasserDragoon> "Lists pairs of source and destination files to be symlinked. Each pair should be put on its own line, with the source and destination separated by whitespace. " ok got it :-)
#ubuntu-devel 2011-01-02
<sveinse> Hi. I have the sources for a package (retrieved with apt-get source) and I need to build the x86 version of it, while I'm running amd64. I guess I need to setup some fakeroot system. Any links to where I can find descriptions of how to do so?
<ari-tczew> sveinse: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/PackagingGuide/Intro/Pbuilder
<ari-tczew> sveinse: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/PbuilderHowto
<Keybuk> gnargh
<Keybuk> every time I type bzr log, I wish it would invoke $PAGER
<penguin42> you mean like git does? Yeh it's a nice feature
<Keybuk> yeah
 * penguin42 hands Keybuk the source
<Keybuk> heh, I don't care enough to patch it
<Keybuk> besides, I have a feeling they'd reject it anyway
<cjwatson> Keybuk: mkdir -p .bazaar/plugins && bzr get lp:bzr-pager .bazaar/plugins/pager
<cjwatson> Keybuk: (bug 213718)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 213718 in Bazaar "Use bzr-pager by default" [Medium,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/213718
<cjwatson> the picky will observe that I should have put a couple of ~/ in there, but YKWIM :)
<Keybuk> cjwatson: ooooh
<Keybuk> awesome
<cjwatson> (don't like it myself - I turn that off in git - but I understand others do ...)
<Keybuk> I do, because you never know how much output a given command is going to generate
<Keybuk> and bzr commands can be slow to run
<cjwatson> I'm not quite sure why I dislike it; I think it's at least half visceral, "damnit if I wanted a pager I'd have asked for one"
<Keybuk> so you either protect everything with less just in case, which screws up progress bars
<Keybuk> or you run things twice
<cjwatson> but also, my pager is set up to use the alternate screen
<cjwatson> and very often I want some of whatever I asked for on my terminal for slightly later
<Keybuk> yeah, I can see how that would annoy you
<cjwatson> so the effect of auto-spawning a pager is exactly to cause me to run things twice
<cjwatson> I suspect autopaging makes sense iff the pager isn't going to use an alternate screen
<cjwatson> unfortunately, neither bzr nor git can know that
 * penguin42 tends to use a LOT of terminals/tabs so I don't worry about nuking the contents of one
<vadi2> How can I get in touch with someone in Canonical in regard to a piece of Ubuntus website architecture not working properly anymore? (and not being fixed for half month now).
<JanC> vadi2: try asking in #ubuntu-website
<vadi2> Thanks
<JanC> IIRC there is also an e-mail address listed on most sites
<JanC> vadi2: http://www.ubuntu.com/contact-us under "web feedback"
<vadi2> thank you
<shadeslayer> or open up a ticket?
<shadeslayer> vadi2: ^^
<vadi2> how?
<micahg> vadi2: you can file a bug against this project as well: https://launchpad.net/ubuntu-website
<vadi2> thank you
<Laney> i'd appreciate it if someone could approve the nomination on bug #696480
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 696480 in tar (Ubuntu) "Natty and Maverick's tar versions generate different tarballs in some cases (when path length is 100 characters)" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/696480
<cjwatson> done
<Laney> ty
<hyperair> hmm is that what broke our pristine-tar things?
<elmo> man, I thought that bug was going to be hilariously awesome, but it's just depressing
<Laney> hyperair: yes
<hyperair> i see
<Laney> it is pretty depressing indeed
<Laney> thankfully not much should have relied on that behaviour
 * cjwatson apologises for the Ubuntu project's failure to provide elmo with sufficient entertainment, and offers bug 248619 on the basis that a repeat is better than no show at all
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 248619 in file (Ubuntu Karmic) "file incorrectly labeled as Erlang JAM file" [High,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/248619
<cjwatson> hang on, where's the awesome version of that
<cjwatson> bug 255161 is more like it
<penguin42> is that the Tuesday printing one?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 255161 in cupsys (Ubuntu) "I am unable to print from open office, I tried reinstalling open office but it did not work. I use a brother mfc240c printer and I am running Hardy. Printing from other apps has not been an issue. (dup-of: 248619)" [Undecided,Invalid] https://launchpad.net/bugs/255161
<penguin42> ah yes
<elmo> hahaha
<hyperair> lol
<azeem> wow
#ubuntu-devel 2011-12-26
 * SpamapS drops pin, hears it bounce 3 times
 * penguin42 picks up the pin and sticks it in SpamapS thumb
<vrum> a somewhat paranoid question: do maintainers for packages in main/universe have access to upload binaries compiled by themselves?
<vrum> or do ubuntu/canonical utilize some kind of a buildfarm (with strict access control) that compiles all packages found in these repos?
<Nafallo> the latter
<vrum> cool
<penguin42> although they can stuff binaries into the packages in some cases - e.g. ia32-libs is done like that
<Nafallo> well, that's still a sourcecode upload though :-)
<Ampelbein> Hmm, I have a weird deja-vu feeling right now. vrum, did you ask that question before?
<vrum> Ampelbein: yep, in debian-devel, i'm contemplating debian vs ubuntu
<Ampelbein> vrum: Ah, ok. So I'm not crazy after all. ;-)
<Nafallo> Ampelbein: ... or at least not as obviously ;-)
<vrum> was always a debian user, but knowing of ubuntus usage of the hardening wrappers + this makes ubuntu sound promising
<Ampelbein> vrum: debian has adopted hardening flags as a release goal, http://wiki.debian.org/ReleaseGoals/SecurityHardeningBuildFlags
<vrum> yea i've been reading about that; sounds hopeful
<nullie> Hello. Does indicator development belong to app-devel channel?
<trinikrono> nullie: ask maybe in motu since no one seems to be in
<vrum> are the md5/sha*-fields in Packages optional?
<vrum> referense: http://dangertux.wordpress.com/2011/11/29/trusted-respitories-not-so-trustworthy/
<vrum> seems rather laughable if the only thing needed to distribute malicious packages is to compromise a mirror and change/remove those fields for said package
<penguin42> vrum: Ouch
<ion> Huh. Isnât the signature of Packages checked?
<elmo> the signature of Releases is checked, and it contains hashsums of the Packages files
<elmo> so, I'm not sure how they managed (or claims to have managed to) alter the Packages file without apt freaking out
<stgraber> yeah, that example simply can't work without showing a warning (either md5 mismatch or signature mismatch or "unsigned packages")
<stgraber> unless he signed it with another key that's added ot his apt keyring (apparently not the case)
<stgraber> I know apt isn't complaining a lot when it's the first time you add a repository that's not signed though, but that's definitely not the case of security.u.c
<vrum> okay, will try myself when i sober up a bit. sounds quite strange/pointless to sign anything package-related if it'd work though
<broder> what about stripping the signatures from the Release file, though?
<broder> does apt yell in the same way about unsigned Release files that it does for Release files signed with a key you don't have?
<stgraber> IIRC it complains heavily if you do it once it already knows the repository
<stgraber> so if you add a new unsigned repository, it won't complain about it
#ubuntu-devel 2011-12-27
<stgraber> but if you strip the gpg signature from archive.u.c or security.u.c, it'll complain (or even skip/ignore the archive entirely, not sure)
<penguin42> stgraber: Would it do it if the machine had a fresh install of ubuntu and had never consulted security. before?
<stgraber> penguin42: IIRC a default live install has archive.u.c and security.u.c lists in /var/lib/apt so yes, it'd complain
<stgraber> penguin42: netinstall may be a bit different though, I don't think I ever tried it to be honnest (d-i may have a specific check for that)
<elmo> I'm pretty sure we fixed the downgrade case a few years back, but I can't find a useful LP reference, the bug in the apt changelog is wrong
<elmo> but it'd be pretty easy for someone to verify independently...
<cjwatson> penguin42: the installer contains prefetched valid signatures for archive/security Release files
<cjwatson> penguin42: it forces those into place right from the start to prevent unsigned-archive attacks for those archives
<penguin42> sounds safe then
<cjwatson> I'm not at all convinced by that blog - there are definitely design constraints that prevent that attack and I've personally seen them tripping when network errors result in Packages checksums not matching what's in Release
<penguin42> seems an odd thing for him to post if it doesn't work
<cjwatson> perhaps something else had gone wrong first; hard to say
<cjwatson> having nuked /var/lib/apt/lists/ for some reason and then recreated it could do it, for instance
<infinity> cjwatson: I'll note that his screenshots conspicuously omit the parts where apt would normally complain about unsigned/broken files.
<bbrelin> Hello all.
<bbrelin> anybody alive on this channel?
<solid_liq> nope, only zombies are allowed here
<solid_liq> so, if you're alive, go away!!!    woooOOOooooOOo  aaaaAAaaaAAaAHHHH!!!
<solid_liq> ;)
<bbrelin> LOL.  Is there a kernel issue in 11.10 with the wireless device and Toshiba Satellite Pro laptops?
<bbrelin> I've got a Toshiba and when I upgraded to 11.10 the wireless device stopped working.
<bbrelin> I'm hearing horrible things, like to fix this I have to install Windows XP to turn on FN-F8,, etc. to configure the wireless device.
<bbrelin> anybody here know?
<goddard> why isn't the touch pad indicator standard in ubuntu can I make this suggestions some where?
<jkprg> Hi. I want to modify linux-image-2.6 package (add an additional patch). What's the best way to do it? I assume I need to create a new package. How to name (including version) the package? I also want to protect the package it won't be updated by any standard distribution packages but only by my branch of packages. Thx
<penguin42> jkprg: In the way that there are linux-image-3.x.x-generic and linux-image-3.x.x-virtual you could have a linux-image-3.x.x-jkprg
<penguin42> or 2.6 in your case
<jkprg> penguin42: I see. How to add "-jkprg" to my package name that I would derived from standard one? Is there any variable in kernel package I can modify?
<penguin42> now that I can't honestly remember, but I think I'd take a look at the package source for the kernel you want to modify and find where it adds the generic/virtual
<jkprg> ok thx
#ubuntu-devel 2011-12-28
<tsousa> hey
<tsousa> is there a bug on rt2500 right?
<micahg> is there an archive admin around to copy packages for me?
<tsousa> can someone please help me?
<micahg> Riddell: you up for a pocket copy?
<Riddell> micahg: what needs?
#ubuntu-devel 2011-12-29
<micahg> Riddell: I need firefox/ubufox/mozvoikko (oneiric) copied from ubuntu-mozilla-security to oneiric proposed, should I get a pastebin with commands?
<micahg> infinity: are you around to copy some stuff?
<infinity> micahg: What's in it for me?
<micahg> infinity: what do you need done?
<infinity> A pizza would be nice.
 * micahg was thinking more Ubuntu related
<infinity> Oh.
<infinity> Well, what do you need copied?
<infinity> We'll discuss a payment plan later.
<micahg> infinity: {firefox,ubufox,mozvoikko}/oneiric from ubuntu-mozilla-security to oneiric-proposed
<infinity> Didn't I do that recently?
<infinity> Or not oneiric?
 * infinity shrugs.
<infinity> Oh, I didn't do oneiric.
<infinity> And you got ppc built.  Yay!
<micahg> yeah, chris disabled the tests and that seemed to have made the buildd happier
<infinity> micahg: All done.
<micahg> infinity: thanks!
<infinity> Riddell: Disregard micahg's request.  All done.
<micahg> infinity: as for payment, feel free to throw me a merge or a bug that I'm capable of completing in a reasonable amount of time
<infinity> micahg: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/grub2/+bug/759545
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 759545 in grub2 (Ubuntu Precise) "user prompted to update unmodified grub configuration during Ubuntu server upgrade" [Medium,Triaged]
<infinity> I should probably fix that in the week before the rally.
<micahg> infinity: I don't know that I can take a look before Wed
 * micahg thanks the NEW processor
<cjwatson> yw
<sinosoidal_> hi. i'm building a debian package to a kernel module driver and a control panel for that device-driver interaction. it is already working but now I would like to add the cherry in the top of the cake, making it a beautifull debian package to the eyes of the ubuntu software centre. Can someone tell me where can I find documentation which explain how can I insert icon in the menus, icons in the installer, screenshots of the app, etc?
<yottabit> ping
<yottabit> anyone
<micahg> StevenK: can you copy something from a PPA for me?
<micahg> or any other archive admin :)
<micahg> Riddell: can you copy stuff for me?
<micahg> it's {thunderbird,enigmail,lightning-extension}/oneiric from ubuntu-mozilla-security to oneiric-proposed if anyone sees the backscroll, thanks
<Riddell> micahg: let's see
<Riddell> micahg: lightning-extension 1.1+build1-0ubuntu0.11.10.1 to oneiric-proposed?
<Riddell> enigmail - 2:1.3.4-0ubuntu0.11.10.1  and thunderbird - 9.0+build2-0ubuntu0.11.10.1  ?
<micahg_> Riddell, yes, thanks
<Riddell> micahg: done
<slangasek> so, is there a new tzdata release that covers Samoa's change?
#ubuntu-devel 2011-12-30
<slangasek> debfx: hi, are there any known problems with the libsdl1.2 package in Debian git?  I'd like to pull in multiarch support this week so I can have ia32-libs over and done with in Ubuntu before the new year, and merging from git seems the easiest way to do that
<micahg> jamespage: mind if I merge maven-repo-helper?
<jamespage> micahg: sure - no problem
<fbond> Hi. This is not a regression, but I believe an urgent SRU for Lucid would be appropriate. https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/python-tz/+bug/885163
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 885163 in python-tz (Ubuntu) "pytz dst() incorrectly handles Pacific/Apia day leap" [Undecided,New]
<fbond> The recent timezone change has the potential to cause significant impact on production deployments.
<fbond> In particular, any Django site using the django timezones app will experience issues.
<dr3mro> hello , I am trying to build a package in ppa for ubuntu and i fail but it builds locally with no problem any help https://launchpadlibrarian.net/88777465/buildlog_ubuntu-oneiric-i386.imgizor_0.5~ppa2-0~8~oneiric1_FAILEDTOBUILD.txt.gz
<dr3mro> <dr3mro> here is my source code     bzr branch lp:imgizor
<Laney> "checking for intltool >= 0.35.0... ./configure: line 12212: intltool-update: command not found"
<dr3mro> Laney, are you talking to me
<Laney> probably missing a build-depends on intltool
<Laney> yep
<dr3mro> so i have to add intltool as build dep
<Laney> if you build in a minimal environment on your machine (e.g. with pbuilder) then you should see the same error too
<dr3mro> Laney, i added intltool as build deps and retrying i wish it works
<Laney> if you build locally you can check there aren't any others missing too
<dr3mro> Laney, Ok i will report if it works
<dr3mro> Laney,  ok i have installed pbuilder but i don't know how to test builds with it
<Laney> easiest way is to install ubuntu-dev-tools, do pbuilder-dist <your-release> create and then pbuilder-dist <your-release> build <your_package.dsc>
<dr3mro> hello , can any one tell me if i have created a tarball of a source code and i need to put specific files like glade files to be installed in a specified path how to do it in tarball ???
<kees> jcastro: did you get one of those hotswap raid desktop array things a while back? what did you get and did you like it?
<lamont> how in the *)&&%&%(*)^)& to I get firefox to QUIT GOING FULL SCREEN EVERY TIME IT GETS DEICONIFIED?
<Ampelbein> lamont: sudo apt-get install chromium-browser? ;-)
<lamont> Ampelbein: not acceptable
<chrisccoulson> lamont, pick a different window manager
<lamont> ditto
<lamont> chrisccoulson: is it the window manager doing it then?
<chrisccoulson> lamont, how is the window being deiconified?
<lamont> either alt-tab, or clicking on the icon in the left-bar
<chrisccoulson> lamont, yeah, it's not likely to be firefox doing that then
<lamont> cool.  I'll file the bug against unity then
<chrisccoulson> Ampelbein, chromium is ok, as long as you don't care about the web being open, and don't care about your privacy ;)
<chrisccoulson> and as long as you don't care that it's virtually unmaintained in ubuntu now
<Ampelbein> chrisccoulson: Yeah, it's a shame there's not a single good browser available that is a) fast b) secure and open c) well maintained.
<Ampelbein> I want galeon back
<chrisccoulson> lol
<chrisccoulson> well maintained?
<maswan> It was resonably well maintained before the galeon2 fiasco, IIRC
<Ampelbein> It was until 2009.
<ScottK> chrisccoulson: I thought all the monitoring stuff was just in Chrome, not Chromium?
<chrisccoulson> ScottK, sign in to your google account, open wireshark and then type a URL in the addressbar ;)
<chrisccoulson> it sends all of your keypresses, along with your login cookie (for the search suggestions, which is exactly why firefox has a separate search and URL bar)
<ScottK> Kind of has to do that to make the immediate search thing work.
<Ampelbein> And you can disable it.
<Ampelbein> (The Instant search is disabled by default)
<chrisccoulson> disabled by default? the search suggestions when typing in the addressbar are enabled by default
<Ampelbein> chrisccoulson: There are two services, instant search and adress bar predictions.
<chrisccoulson> yeah, i know :)
<Ampelbein> only the latter is enabled by default
<chrisccoulson> and that's the one i'm talking about
<Ampelbein> Well, "preferences -> under the hood -> "Use a prediction service to help complete searches and URLs typed in the address bar" isn't too hard to find and disable.
<Ampelbein> Then only searches that you actively start by pressing enter are stored.
<chrisccoulson> then it's useless
<chrisccoulson> what i want is for search prediction to work, but without it sending the URL's i type in there to google
<chrisccoulson> but that isn't possible with the design of the combined URL / search box
<jtaylor> doko_: I would recommend not letting python provide argparse in debian, as 2.6 is still supported in debian the more correct solution is to revert the argparse change
<jtaylor> the maintainer mailed me he is open to doing that next week
#ubuntu-devel 2011-12-31
 * mlinscott is AFK, Ran to the Store âI-n-v-i-s-i-o-nâ
 * mlinscott is back from Ran to the Store. I was gone for 27mins âI-n-v-i-s-i-o-nâ
<mikeru> Hello, I'm having trouble compiling the alsa drivers from the alsa-driver source package. I'm on 11.10 (x86_64). So, I got the source package using apt-get source alsa-driver. I patched 'patch_cirrus.c' (@alsa-kernel/pci/hda) because the GPIO configuration is wrong for my iMac 27" (the headphones are on GPIO2 not GPIO1). However, after debuild'ing and installing the packages, m-a fails to build the sources due to references to <linux/smp_lock.h>. I fo
<mikeru> und the files referencing it and commented it out (as it isn't needed anymore) but more stuff, like @CONFIG_(somethingidontremember)_KERNELSRC@ and other errors keep coming out.
<mikeru> And so I'm wondering -- aren't the source packages even used by the ubuntu maintainers? and how are the alsa-drivers built then?
<mikeru> the patches included in the source package just break it even more (they are responsible for adding <linux/smp_lock.h>)
#ubuntu-devel 2012-01-01
<micahg> Ampelbein: FYI, Debian Import Freeze is Jan 9, not Jan 12 (see parentheses)
<micahg> doko: I think I figured out how to fix R, should just need some rebuilds, I'm finishing up a test and then will start on it
<lifeless> micahg: we really should call it Debian Import (Automatic) Freeze
<Ampelbein> micahg: Ah, thanks. Might be better to explicitly write the date as it's very confusing to have it listed right besides "January 12th"
<micahg> Ampelbein: there's a note at the top of the wiki on what to watch out for
<Ampelbein> "Freezes normally happen around 2100 UTC time of the given date.", given date implies to me that a date is given, not some day of the week ;-)
<Ampelbein> (And no note about the date given not being the date given)
<micahg> Ampelbein: ah, I guess it's not so clear, sorry, the date header has next to it (Thursday)
<Ampelbein> Oh, right. Pretty unintuitive design, if I may say so.
<jasox> I am playing with unity for few days. I am wondering is there any way for testing without recompiling whole unity source code?
#ubuntu-devel 2012-12-24
<blami> RAOF: at least that was what I saw on latest FUDcon
<blami> RAOF: but it is very nice to hear that Ubuntu is on bleeding edge in this thing
<PovAddict> where can I find compilation logs of packages in ubuntu?
<directhex> PovAddict, which package specifically?
<PovAddict> libpqxx-3.1
<directhex> 3.1-1.1 ?
<PovAddict> yes
<directhex> right hand side of https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/libpqxx3/3.1-1.1, under "Builds"
<directhex> then click "buildlog" for the given architecture
<directhex> e.g. https://launchpadlibrarian.net/106411712/buildlog_ubuntu-quantal-i386.libpqxx3_3.1-1.1_BUILDING.txt.gz
<PovAddict> matches debian wrt the part I was wondering... so I still don't know what the heck is going on
<PovAddict> http://paste.kde.org/630830/
<tjaalton> infinity: i did, and it woould make sense. not sure if i have it on or off
<infinity> tjaalton: Hasn't hung since I disabled it earlier today, though that's not very scientific.  Will probably have to give it a week.
<infinity> tjaalton: But turning it on may at least help you reproduce, if you're interested.
<tjaalton> infinity: yeah, quite likely
<stgraber> tkamppeter_: hmm, can't you testbuild on your nexus7? 13 uploads of xbmc in a month seems a bit excessive :)
<blami> hi, i have question regarding the ppa and ubuntu packaging. I have git tree of project I am contributing to and I want to be able to create source package for my personal ppa directly from it. Do I understand correctly I will need to package current state of tree (a single checkout) to orig tar and then build a debian package from it?
<blami> also is there best practice for maintaining ubuntu package directly from the git source tree? I can't push my debian/ directory upstream for obvious reasons s I have it uncommited in source tree, but would be nice if I could version my changes there in bzr branch, but reading through docs I'm definitely missing something as all guides I was able to find start from upstream .tar.gz
<bkerensa> Happy Holidays!
<dobey> blami: you can create an import branch on launchpad for the project in question, so that it will import the git tree into a bzr branch. if your git tree has ever had submodules though, this will likely break. then you can create a bzr branch with the contents of the debian/ dir you wish to use for packaging, and create a source package recipe which uses the imported bzr branch, and nests the external debian branch in the debia
<dobey> blami: or you can create a tarball release, and do a normal package that way
<blami> dobey: to use source recipe do I need the project itself in bzr branch?
<blami> and when I import it to bzr does it mean lp will track git repo for me or do I need poke it everytime when I change something in "upstream" (my git tree)? It sounds a little bit 'overengineered' to me to have a chain of two vcs'es to just build package with local changes
<dobey> blami: yes, the code has to be in a bzr branch to use the source recipe
<dobey> and yes, lp will auto-import new revisions for imported branches
<blami> dobey: thanks I will look into this. Is there any doc on source recipes? I'm fairly new to ubuntu and still getting familiar with all those amazing things around lp
<dobey> there's documentation on launchpad
#ubuntu-devel 2012-12-25
<cjwatson> blami: it's also not unusual to create snapshot tarballs; I believe/suspect that git-buildpackage can help with that
<Bluefoxicy> i just cannot figure tasksel out.
<Bluefoxicy> I mean look at the entry for openssh-server in /usr/share/tasksel/ubuntu-tasks.desc
<cjwatson> sure, people asked for that 'cos it was handy
<Bluefoxicy> Same thing except Task:  puppet, Description:  Puppet configuration agent, Key: puppet, and it ... does nothing.  The option shows up, but it doesn't actually do anything.
<Bluefoxicy> changed Package: task-fields to Package: puppet and it works, except gives errors before installing the appropriate package, because it expects another file at /usr/lib/tasksel/packages/puppet
<cjwatson> which is probably because you don't have any packages with Task: puppet in your Packages files
<Bluefoxicy> ah
<cjwatson> pretty sure this is documented in tasksel's readme
<Bluefoxicy> so this requires modifying the repository as well
<Bluefoxicy> http://fts.ifac.cnr.it/cgi-bin/dwww/usr/share/doc/tasksel/README.gz here somewhere?
<cjwatson> well, if you want to use task-fields, but you don't have to
<Bluefoxicy> I probably missed it when I read through
<cjwatson> dunno, not going to look now to see if that's vaguely current
<Bluefoxicy> no problem, at least I've got vaguely a better understanding now.
<Bluefoxicy> Also, any chance of getting puppet and/or chef promoted to main any time soon?
<cjwatson> you want "Packages: list", probably, for which therea's an example near the top of the readme.
<cjwatson> no idea about that; not something I care about.
<Bluefoxicy> heh I have a dozen servers to administrate in an enterprise environment </buzzwords>; it's something *I* care about.
<Bluefoxicy> Who in the hell thought up the word "enterprise" anyway?
 * Bluefoxicy tries to find the release roadmap for 13.04, and finds Google results like "Ubuntu already scoping out an April release date..." ... uh... it's a 6 month release cycle, always has been, what's special about this?
<micahg> Bluefoxicy: puppet is in main
<Bluefoxicy> micahg:  .... how does this keep happening to me?
<micahg> Bluefoxicy: rmadison puppet :)
<Bluefoxicy> that's like the fifth time I've looked at a package, wondered why it's not main, posted to the mailing list, and someone tells me it is indeed in main.
<Bluefoxicy> and I look and it is indeed
<Bluefoxicy> well then I am going to go post "I am an idiot.  Can we have a tasksel too?"
 * micahg doesn't know how those work offhand
 * Bluefoxicy already wrote one
<Bluefoxicy> http://pastebin.com/6Xqz2KLt This works.  I don't know what "Relevance" does.
<Bluefoxicy> huh.
<Bluefoxicy> apt puts the proxy stuff in /etc/apt/apt.conf instead of /etc/apt/apt.conf.d/01proxy
 * Bluefoxicy punched in proxy information for his apt-cacher server at the installation prompt on the mini install CD.
<infinity> Bluefoxicy: Having tasks for single packages seems silly.
<infinity> Bluefoxicy: (And before you quote openssh-server as a precedent, note that that's a pretty rare/special case in that it's installed on 99% of servers, but we don't install services by default, so that was the compromise... puppet's nowhere near as ubiquitous)
<cjwatson> Bluefoxicy: pkgsel/include=puppet would probably be way less effort
<Bluefoxicy> infinity:  true, i'm not sure the purpose of specifying something in tasksel though.  There's an openssh server task.
<infinity> Bluefoxicy: Like I said, openssh is a bit of a special case to make it more prominent in the installer, that's all.
<Bluefoxicy> I thought the purpose was to advertise different types of servers that Ubuntu can be, kind of like the Roles installer in Windows 2008 Server
<infinity> Bluefoxicy: It was a compromise between "we don't install network services by default" and "everyone expects a server to have SSH running", so people would see it listed right at the top and install it if they needed it.
<infinity> Bluefoxicy: The OTHER tasks are for what you say, yes.  But they're larger tasks, not just single packages.
<Bluefoxicy> well, having run CentOS/RHEL/Fedora, I can get on board with that
<Bluefoxicy> god damn six billion things load at boot and you have a thousand ports open, this is an "enterprise" OS???
<infinity> tjaalton: No dice on the Vt-d BIOS disabling.  Just got the lockup again. :/
<Bluefoxicy> also it's not right at the top anymore I think
<infinity> tjaalton: In the new year, you might need to hand-hold me through some useful debugging for you, if you can't manage to reproduce this, cause it's pretty glaringly unfriendly behaviour for people who aren't me.
<Bluefoxicy> tasksel seems to sort alphabetically
<infinity> Bluefoxicy: Oh, that may be so.  It's been a while since I've actually looked at that dialog for more than a split second.
#ubuntu-devel 2012-12-26
<Bluefoxicy> is there a way to set a value in a configuration file to automatically run a full release upgrade?
<L1n0x> hallo
<L1n0x> ich suche einen c++ Entwickler fÃ¼r ein kleines Projekt
<L1n0x> c/c++
<L1n0x> ?
<L1n0x> i searching for 1 c++ Programmer for a small projekt
#ubuntu-devel 2012-12-27
<Bluefoxicy> Anyone any good with ruby?
<Bluefoxicy> Particularly broken ruby stuff?
<bluefoxxx> anyone know anything about ruby?
<menace> no one ever heard of this thing called ruby.. is it something to eat?
<Adri2000> anyone in ~sru could review bug #1048634 ? (waiting for one week)
<ubottu> bug 1048634 in ejabberd (Ubuntu Precise) "Login issue with Pidgin using SRV records" [Medium,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1048634
<xnox> How to "add" bug links to the FTBFS rebuilds report? http://people.ubuntuwire.org/~wgrant/rebuild-ftbfs-test/test-rebuild-20121221-raring.html
<Adri2000> xnox: tag ftbfs? (just guessing)
<Adri2000> I mean, tag the bug in LP with 'ftbfs'
<xnox> Adri2000: yeah, looks like it http://people.ubuntuwire.org/~wgrant/rebuild-ftbfs-test/source/build_status.py
<hippiehacker> where does the embedded grub config for efi/boot/bootx64.efi come from on the release isos?
<hippiehacker> running strings on it shows me what is compiled in
<bluefoxxx> Apache still works with a blank /etc/ports.conf
<bluefoxxx> in fact, if you remove the default site and add your own, apache2 continues to work, possibly listening on another port
<bluefoxxx> with /etc/apache2/ports.conf as-is, it also listens (uselessly) on 80 and 443
<bluefoxxx> should I file this as a bug?
<FlowRiser> hey all, so i've just made my very own greeter using the qt bindings of lightdm. Now i want to package it, so other users can test it out; I read the documentation and i got the basic concepts down. Can someone explain slowly what packaging is, specifically what are the steps in order to get from source code to a package ?
<geofft> FlowRiser: briefly you add a debian/ directory with the appropriate metadata, then run a tool to build a .deb out of that, and usually also a source package
<FlowRiser> what does the debian metadata usually contain ?
<FlowRiser> geofft, thanks so much for answering, i've been trying to get someone to give me a brief explanation for 3 days now
<jtaylor> FlowRiser: http://developer.ubuntu.com/packaging/html/debian-dir-overview.html
<FlowRiser> jtaylor, thnaks :D
<geofft> there's lots of good documentation. packaging is complicated, in part because it's a powerful system
<bluefoxxx> FlowRiser, look into CDBS for debian packaging made easy
<bluefoxxx> unless that's been superceded already
<bluefoxxx> for a while Debian package management was a land of new tools similar in spirit to Japan's take on Doritos.
<jtaylor> don't look into cdbs ._.
<geofft> I think the standard recommendation these days is new-style debhelper over CDBS
<bluefoxxx> jtaylor, superceded then I guess?
<bluefoxxx> ah
<bluefoxxx> see this is what I mean.
<geofft> (CDBS definitely made sense over old-style debhelper though)
<jtaylor> its still used, but not recommended
<bluefoxxx> it's like in Japan there are new flavors of doritos twice a week
<geofft> yeah, part of why Debian packaging is complicated is because there's still a lot of work to figure out the best way to do it.
<geofft> see also source format 3.0. These sorts of things _shouldn't_ be things a new packager has to really care about, but they still show up
<bluefoxxx> geofft, there's also legacy from all the stuff that almost made it but sharply fell into obscurity
<bluefoxxx> like delta-RPMs on RHEL
<bluefoxxx> there were a few UDS where one of the main topics was Delta-debs
<jtaylor> delta-debs work fine
<jtaylor> (in debian)
<bluefoxxx> oh
<bluefoxxx> at some point like a year later someone told me the whole idea was stupid and pointless because "Internet is fast now"
<bluefoxxx> apparently they changed their mind again.
<jtaylor> thats not true
<jtaylor> I love debians delta debs
<jtaylor> many users do not have fast internet
<bluefoxxx> what's the current accepted way to build a local caching server?
<bluefoxxx> I'm using apt-cacher here because it works
<bluefoxxx> someone said use http_proxy, and there's like 4 servers specifically designed to cache packages for apt in Universe
<jtaylor> I'm using apt-cacher-ng
<jtaylor> with http_proxy for chroots and apt config proxy for the main machine
<bluefoxxx> yeah oh.
<bluefoxxx> I put my proxy config in /etc/apt/apt.conf.d/01proxy
<bluefoxxx> the installer (for mini.iso at least, for 12.10/Quantal) puts it in /etc/apt/apt.conf
<bluefoxxx> it's the only thing that goes in apt.conf
<bluefoxxx> jtaylor, I'm doing enterprise linux system administration these days, so I've been looking at ... certain things.  Notably puppet.
<bluefoxxx> the concept of a WSUS-alike for Linux has been on my list of things needed for Enterprise for a while though
<bluefoxxx> WSUS is Microsoft's server for caching Windows Update patches locally, so you only downtoald them once per LAN.
<bluefoxxx> Microsoft's tools also allow you to control which patches go to which systems, though that can be done through other means on Linux.  Not sure if there's a *great* way to do that yet though.
<bluefoxxx> in any case, all babbling aside, at some point I need to put together a list of "must haves" and start pestering people on the mailing lists, filing bugs, figuring out how to fix things and submit debdiffs, and put in blueprints and somehow convince people that certain things are significant
<bluefoxxx> (I figure one day I should make a contribution to society, once)
<JanC> bluefoxxx: I'm sure several companies are using something like WSUS with Ubuntu/Debian right now
<bluefoxxx> JanC, yeah the question is how easy is it to find/set up
<bluefoxxx> in the case of apt-cacher-ng, that works fairly well
<bluefoxxx> though, it's not in main.
<JanC> "not in main" is not really all that important
<bluefoxxx> You also can't get a high level view of all the Debian/RHEL/etc systems on your network, arrange them in groups, and set which packages (and which versions!) they get (=centralized package management), which is a major function of SCCM
<bluefoxxx> JanC, being in main is mainly symbolic
<bluefoxxx> except for maybe puppetmaster-passenger
<bluefoxxx> which is both universe and horribly broken (although puppetmaster is main)
<bluefoxxx> and we're back to me not knowing enough about the crap I'm working with, 'cause if I did I'd have fixed it by now :|
<JanC> that's a common issue with open source solutions  ;)
<JanC> anyway, there are some solutions that are used by large deployments, and those are probably able to do what you want
<JanC> e.g. FAI & GOsa
<andrei_> Hello, I would like to become an ubuntu contributor. So far I have read ContributeToUbuntu and registered with Ubuntu in Launchpad. I'm having a bit of trouble searching for available projects? Also, is it possible or should I join a specific team? Thank you!
<bluefoxxx> JanC,  been looking into FAI.  GoSa dunno yet.
<bluefoxxx> JanC, also see Foreman
<bluefoxxx> Though my senior coworkers are TERRIFIED of Foreman
<JanC> I don't know Foreman
<bluefoxxx> http://theforeman.org/projects/foreman/wiki/Screencasts Third video says it all
<JanC> but FAI, GoSa & co. are used in Germany by some really huge deployments
<bluefoxxx> It'll automatically push a PXE at a piece of bare hardware, or set up a virtual machine
<bluefoxxx> configure it, create a Puppet node for it, install Puppet, and push all the configuration settings
<JanC> OTOH, I don't know how much manual configuration they need
<bluefoxxx> Suddenly:  brand new server :)
<bluefoxxx> There's something slightly unnerving about software that can wipe and re-install a server or mess with your VM provisioning without a human having to physically push a big red button
<JanC> bluefoxxx: that sounds like it somewhat overlaps with the Ubuntu voodoo stuff âº
<bluefoxxx> Voodoo is another thing I have to look into I guess
<JanC> I mean MAAS & Juju & such
<penguin42> bluefoxxx: Generally it's much worse if it does that to hundreds of servers at one click :-)
<maswan> bluefoxxx: fyi: we do fairly large fai deployments on ubuntu for hpc use at $WORK: fai-chboot -e $host on the install server, then ssh $host reboot, and it gets reinstalled from scratch
<bluefoxxx> nice
<bluefoxxx> maswan, we run around and put CDs into VMware virtual drives, then manually configure everything here
<bluefoxxx> mostly on CentOS.
<bluefoxxx> the RPM database keeps breaking and I have to rebuild it and flush the yum cache
<maswan> bluefoxxx: ugh. we have a bit of centos too, due to political stuff, I forget how that's setup but I think it is minimal kickstart + FAI
<bluefoxxx> maswan, we can skip the argument about which distro is better
<bluefoxxx> It's sufficient to say RHEL and its derivatives are simply OLD
<maswan> bluefoxxx: My point was that we use FAi for that too
<bluefoxxx> and the EL package availability is very narrow scope
<maswan> (but a different tree of fai nfsroot/config/etc)
<bluefoxxx> a colleague had indicated that FAI was more a Debian thing and Kickstart was more of a RH thing
<maswan> yeah, it is
<maswan> But since we came from the debian/ubuntu side and then added some RH, we kept the kickstart for minimal OS and then did it FAI:y for package install and conf
<maswan> It is quite a step to setup the first time, but it is really good to have automatically deployable intsances once you scale up a bit.
<maswan> For that it doesn't really matter which of the deployment solutions you choose
<bluefoxxx> yeah that's what I"m getting with puppet
<bluefoxxx> I"ve written like 400 lines of puppet code
<bluefoxxx> just for a configuration module for puppet
<maswan> Yeah, that works too.
<bluefoxxx> granted, it configures the client and server with various options, is supposed to port to debianites/rhelites, lets you use the distro repositories or the puppetlabs stuff, etc.
<bluefoxxx> well, I'll have to compare FAI with the Foreman and see if anything is appropriate here
<bluefoxxx> maswan, so many options.  I didn't put that much thought into it before :|
<maswan> bluefoxxx: Yeah, it was easier back when we choose FAI, it was the only debian:y solution out there at, hmm, woody I tihnk it was. :)
<bluefoxxx> My ideal scenario is a distribution which handles all the "getting set up" part for you.  Something that will easily put in a running FAI/Kickstart/Foreman/etc, Puppet/Chef/Ansible/etc, deploy a caching server for Deb and RPM, patch management, domains/LDAP (hey, Samba 4!) for authentication, integration with existing network environment (active directory server -> authentication)...
<bluefoxxx> without doing 10 hours of configuration just to get to the point where you can start configuring the software to do something besides just basically idle
<bluefoxxx> but then, I am a lazy mook
<bluefoxxx> Thing is there's apparently a ton of ways to do this :|
<bluefoxxx> suddenly, not so simple a problem
<maswan> Yeah. And new ones are frequently invented too.
<penguin42> bluefoxxx: Isn't this what preseeding is supposed to be about?
<bluefoxxx> ... ten million ways to do this
<penguin42> yep
<andrei_> Sorry for the rather newbie message but, I have been trying to find a project(blueprint as it is called) to work on and I'm not sure even how to find one on which I can work.
<andrei_> I have never used launchbad before.
<bluefoxxx> andrei_,  put in google:  blueprints for ubuntu 13.04
<bluefoxxx> the first result is https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/raring ... not comprehensive by far, but a good place to start :)
<andrei_> bluefoxxx: thank you
<andrei_> if I decide to work on a project, what is the next step ? ( assuming it has an assignee )
<bluefoxxx> I don't know.  E-mail the person it's assigned to and ask.  They probably know what they're doing.
#ubuntu-devel 2012-12-28
<cakeIsGreat> I'm doing some python work with gi.repository and would love to get some documentation on Gtk.Menu.append() for example. Where do I find this?
<Chipzz> cakeIsGreat: first of all, please DO read the topic, your question is off-topic here. second, #pygtk on irc.gnome.org
<Chipzz> or the online pygtk or gtk+ docs
<Chipzz> the C API docs are often useful even when programming in python
<cakeIsGreat> Chipzz, my apologies, ubuntu-dev looked like like an appropriate channel for my question regarding building an app for Ubuntu. I'm slightly confused, since I would have guessed that regular gtk docs would be out of date? I don't know, GTK has me pretty confused since it is new to me, and things are all over the place. But I've already said too much. Thank you for pointing me to the more appropriate channel, I shall continue my search there. Thank
<cakeIsGreat> s again. I shall be off.
<Tm_T> that was rather, err, ubuntu spirit
<hjd> I see the extras repo is offering an update to the lintian package. Am I the only one who finds that strange? http://paste.ubuntu.com/1472803/ Anyone knows what's up with that or where I should ask?
<TheLordOfTime> hjd, from -motu: <jtaylor> some arb reason
<TheLordOfTime> <jtaylor> according to what extras is supposed to be it should have not happened
<TheLordOfTime> jtaylor, sorry for the crossping.
<jtaylor> I know nothing about it, haven't seen a mail on the devel list either
<penguin42> sure
<hjd> TheLordOfTime: thanks :)
<TheLordOfTime> jtaylor, it'd have been announced on the -devel mailing list, no?
<TheLordOfTime> or is that one of the silent changes they'd do?
<penguin42> it's odd since it's not shown by packages.ubuntu.com
#ubuntu-devel 2012-12-29
<psusi> am I losing my mind or is grub-probe really broken?  with -d you give it a linux device, i.e. /dev/sda, but without it you give it a grub device don't you, i.e. (hd0)?
<penguin42> it says path
<penguin42> so I'd assume /boot
<penguin42> yep, it seems to like that
<psusi> oh yea... hrm... I could have sworn there was a way to do the reverse of -d /dev/whatever -> (hdx) translation... hrm..
<penguin42> you mean without grepping the device.map :-)
<cjwatson> In general there should be no need to resolve (hd*) from the OS; it should only matter that the mapping between OS devices and GRUB devices is consistent, not what it is
<cjwatson> In rare cases you can use grub-mkdevicemap and map from that, but it's best avoided if you can
<penguin42> is the script that builds the mainline-kernel builds available somewhere?  I'm just trying to replicate a build  and wanted to make sure I had it exactly the same
<Bluefoxicy> now here's an idea
<Bluefoxicy> a system service that waits for a user to ask it for a task, upon which it forks and drops privileges, creates a Unix socket in /tmp/, and accepts commands to download files
<Bluefoxicy> system download service, like on Android.  Runs as the user, the download task listens for commands (like initiate new download or cancel download) while creating a separate download thread for each running  download (maximize download speed), etc.
<maxb> I'm not seeing any clear benefit to that over traditional use of in-process library code
<SpamapS> Bluefoxicy: I think what you are looking for is called "dbus"
<Bluefoxicy> maxb: it doesn't die when the browser etc crashes or needs to be restarted because an automatic security update ran and it no longer functions.
<SpamapS> Bluefoxicy: a dbus method call that downloads files to specified locations would indeed be a nice feature for backgrounding downloads, and it could of course notify users of their completion
<Bluefoxicy> SpamapS: yes, or be queried for progress etc, told to relocate the file mid-download
<Bluefoxicy> pause and resume
<SpamapS> Bluefoxicy: your browser shouldn't be crashing btw. :)
<Bluefoxicy> Chromium purports to pause and resume
<Bluefoxicy> except if you pause, wait 30 seconds, continue, it just goes "DONE!" with a half-finished file
<Bluefoxicy> then when you re-download it starts over.
<SpamapS> Bluefoxicy: and downloads longer than 24 hours are rare, so the restart problem isn't really interesting
<Bluefoxicy> Firefox did the same back in the day for me
<Bluefoxicy> don't know if they ever made any web browser actually work
<SpamapS> chrome/chromium rarely crash. Its their reason for existence.
<Bluefoxicy> I've downloaded DVD ISOs
<SpamapS> Google saw the browser as the most important piece of software on the machine and saw Firefox's model as too crash prone.
<SpamapS> Bluefoxicy: me too.. and on crappy connections too. Still doesn't take > 24 hours. So delay your browser restart for 24 hours.
<SpamapS> Bluefoxicy: I'm not disagreeing, just pointing out that there aren't many actual use cases for refactoring everything around this.
<Bluefoxicy> also Chromium acts weird if you update it while it's running.  Sometimes a DE update for KDE or Unity or Gnome comes in and some stupid thing crashes your desktop out.  Still rare.
<Bluefoxicy> (Chromium acts weird in that it continues to work, but suddenly render processes insist on crashing every time something AJAXy or HTML5y happens, until you restart it--partial functionality)
<Bluefoxicy> SpamapS:  the biggest argument is probably that it would get everything related to a task (downloading files) in one place (except for torrents).
<Bluefoxicy> And there's no need to refactor everything
<Bluefoxicy> Making the feature available and letting everyone else decide if they're gonna use it is good enough
<Bluefoxicy> like I said, my model was Android.  You can glance at the status screen in Android and it shows all the downloads that are happening, from all applications, and you can cancel any of them or open the file when it's done
<Bluefoxicy> android apps have network access and media access, and could easily download files themselves in the same way.  Just nobody does it because the system supplies an API for that.
<Bluefoxicy> anyway
<Bluefoxicy> The argument's been made, no use haggling over it.
<SpamapS> Bluefoxicy: Sounds like something for the brain storm site
<Bluefoxicy> there's a brainstorm site?
<SpamapS> http://brainstorm.ubuntu.com/
<Bluefoxicy> ahh
<Bluefoxicy> "A lot of users are dissatisfied with the integration of the Amazon shopping lens in Ubuntu due to its many disadvantages such as the privacy issues or the use of the internet connection."
<Bluefoxicy> sigh 'privacy' in this  day and age
<Bluefoxicy> 1)  If there's no internet connection, I presume it fetches everything else and goes, "... ??? .... eh, oh well" and just doesn't do that and the user doesn't see it
<Bluefoxicy> 2)  What 'privacy issues' are there with an amazon search?
<Bluefoxicy> Seriously people go, "But, the data, it touched... a web site!  They might know who I am because they have, like, an IP in a database!"
<Bluefoxicy> they have your IP in (gasp) an IP packet!  ... and apache logs.  Quit whining.
<penguin42> Bluefoxicy: It's appropriate to understand peoples concerns rather than trash them
<penguin42> Bluefoxicy: I'm careful to not leak search queries to external sources
<Bluefoxicy> penguin42:  no, sometimes there's such a thing as a dead-end concern and it's appropriate to point it out.
<penguin42> Bluefoxicy: It's not a dead end to those of us who work with very confidential stuff, and the worry frankly is that the problem isn't understood
<Bluefoxicy> okay I'll grant you that, with caveat.
<Bluefoxicy> Why oh why are you working with confidential stuff on a leaky system?
<Bluefoxicy> Like, why would you work with that stuff on Internet-connected Windows?
<penguin42> Bluefoxicy: It depends what's confidential about it - like I work with prerelease hardware or software not medical records
<Bluefoxicy> ah
<penguin42> Bluefoxicy: So on my desktop where I do my normal work with other colleagues also working on stuff I need mail, web browsers etc
<Bluefoxicy> and so if you search for <ambiguous meaningless project codename not related to the final product name> and it sends the search to Amazon, Amazon will sell it to AMD and they will get a leg up on the next big nVidia chipset
<penguin42> Bluefoxicy: But hey why should it be leaky - I run Luks encrypted disk, full firewall, heck on my work machine i have to run an annoying AV system; so I take all normal precautions
<Bluefoxicy> encrypted disk doesn't do anything when the disk is mounted.
<penguin42> correct
<penguin42> Bluefoxicy: Right but people need to do dev on a system where they have the normal tools
<Bluefoxicy> k so we'll skip over all discussion of that.  The state-of-the-art industry seems to think encrypted disk is a version of a firewall :|
<penguin42> yeh
<Bluefoxicy> I'm still trying to wrap my head around how exactly anything useful is going to leak here
<penguin42> Bluefoxicy: My problem is that what I search for is sent in clear text for starters, then if someone wanted to then the data is there for analysis
<Bluefoxicy> you don't send clear-text e-mails I take it
<penguin42> Bluefoxicy: Not for conf stuff, it's encrypted
<Bluefoxicy> also Google makes their search history available for analysis, granted in aggregated form
<penguin42> Bluefoxicy: With encrypted IM, and for some stuff with smtp servers insisting that the other end was using crypt
<penguin42> Bluefoxicy: So your example of the meaningless project name is interesting; what's useful there is to tie that up with anything else that can give you an idea as to what the project name
<Bluefoxicy> i.e. searching for relationships between "whistler" and anything else
<penguin42> nod
<Bluefoxicy> that was hilariously stupid
<Bluefoxicy> "WHISTLER:  MICROSOFT'S CODENAME FOR A NEW OS!" again and again.  And then Longhorn.
<Bluefoxicy> Microsoft is making a new version of Windows?  You don't say!
<penguin42> Bluefoxicy: For example a project I used to work on the fact that the company was working with a certain multinational was the secret because then it would have been obvious what they were doing
<Bluefoxicy> anyway, point is I don't generally understand how any significant amount of CI can be leaked in a keyword or two
<Bluefoxicy> if your stuff is that obvious, it's probably not a secret to anybody
<Bluefoxicy> aha
<Bluefoxicy> relationship graphs are larger than they appear.  Single contexted keywords can reveal a key relationship I guess.
<penguin42> yep, especially if you had all the search data from an entire company coming from a single IP
<Bluefoxicy> man I never get to work anywhere interesting.  I've worked for best buy, for SSA, for a broadcasting company...
<penguin42> Bluefoxicy: I mean it's the only time I worked on something that hairy; but we actually had someone post on a site about us 'They're at this address, this is the version of all their software on their external sites...not that we'd suggest anyone was to do anything' - and this wasn't military or anything, this was just a normal software dev project with a big company
<Bluefoxicy> the most advantageous confidential data I could leak ever would be our new acquisitions of several stations
<Bluefoxicy> which gives our competitors just about zero advantage
<Bluefoxicy> the SEC might get mad about the leak because whoever is eavesdropping can use it to play the stock market.
<penguin42> Bluefoxicy: And it's your companys responsibility to be careful with it - so it's your company who has got to worry about leaks
<Bluefoxicy> yes but understand the scope in my case
<Bluefoxicy> if someone like, say, you got a hold of that and made a million dollars
<Bluefoxicy> okay, you have probably $50k in savings tops, you might make $50k on a good tip
<Bluefoxicy> nobody is going to care.
<Bluefoxicy> YOU might get arrested
<Bluefoxicy> I mean, I've never worked on anytihng that was that interesting :|
<penguin42> Bluefoxicy: Right, now lets go down a notch - what if it was your doctors receptionists desktop?
<Bluefoxicy> probably boring searches for "file on Jones, Smith"
<Bluefoxicy> nobody is going to search for "Jones, Smith, HIV"
<penguin42> Bluefoxicy: The point is it's not just the guy who makes the $50k who gets arrested, it's the IT guy and director at the firm that leaked it for not taking care
<Bluefoxicy> (in the US, HIV is a big deal--for a while it was illegal for doctors to make note in medical record that a patient had HIV because it was considered 'too confidential')
<penguin42> Bluefoxicy: I don't have a problem with their being a tie in with someone like Amazon, or even it being done in Unity, I just think the 'obvious' thing should be reasonably secure; normal people shouldn't have to think about basic security
<Bluefoxicy> that is a lot of stuff in one sentence.
<penguin42> yeh, sorry
<Bluefoxicy> Reasonable default security yes, I can agree with that.  "Privacy" issue versus "Confidentiality"
<penguin42> yeh it's tricky, and my point is if it's tricky then the right thing is to lean towards secure
<Bluefoxicy> people are not whining in general about losing top secret clearance information; they're whining about "privacy" buzzword crap
<Bluefoxicy> you bring up some interesting concerns though.
<Bluefoxicy> But
<Bluefoxicy> "normal people shouldn't have to think about basic security"
<Bluefoxicy> this is laughable.
<penguin42> Bluefoxicy: Why?
<Bluefoxicy> this is like hiring doctors to stop STDs, and not giving normal people any explanation of the threat
<penguin42> Bluefoxicy: Right, but how much does your normal doctor know about computers?
<Bluefoxicy> What do we do, routinely test everyone for computer viruses and user stupidity and execute the ones that are too dumb to use a computer safely?  That's the only real way you're going to get computer security without end user awareness.
<penguin42> Bluefoxicy: No my point is the opposite!
<penguin42> Bluefoxicy: My point is what we do is to make the normal GUIs they deal with doing everything as safely as possible so they don't have to worry about it
<Bluefoxicy> MY point is that you may as well give up the battle entirely if you want a brainless end user to use anything more capable than an NES without explaining basic security to them.
<Bluefoxicy> not e-mailing your credit card information to some random Nigerian Prince that wants to give you $25 million is "basic security"
<Bluefoxicy> Bell LaPadula, firewall configuration, network topology, and IDS is not "basic security"
<penguin42> Bluefoxicy: Right, that's fair
<penguin42> Bluefoxicy: But they wouldn't expect everything they type in their search box to be floating over their wifi
<Bluefoxicy> "Sending information out to the Internet and knowing where it's going" is basic security
<Bluefoxicy> yeah
<Bluefoxicy> though if something gave me Amazon search results, I would have a hard time explaining how that stuff didn't just go to Amazon
<penguin42> Bluefoxicy: So when the user thinks 'internet' they should think 'security' - but are they thinking 'internet' when they hit search?
<Bluefoxicy> they are on Android
<Bluefoxicy> probably not on a desktop.
<Bluefoxicy> heh
<Bluefoxicy> that's changing though.
<penguin42> Bluefoxicy: So as long as you can explain to your users to take care 'on the internet' and not send stuff over the internet when they're not expecting it then I'm happy
<Bluefoxicy> The most popular browsers ALL send everything you type in the URL bar out in real time
<Bluefoxicy> real-time DNS look-up and auto-complete, Google searches, Bing searches
<penguin42> Bluefoxicy: I guess having just had to deal with that type of stuff I like to know where my data is going; as long as I know what's going public and expect it then I'm reasonably happy
<Bluefoxicy> Immunology suggests that when an infection becomes so wide-spread, the general biosphere must adapt by becoming tolerant rather than immune--cats and primates are not harmed by their respective variants of some viruses that KILL humans, the only difference being the viruses for those animals can infect those animals' cells
<Bluefoxicy> penguin42:  yeah, I guess I can understand that
<Bluefoxicy> at the same time, I think it's going to turn into a losing battle, regardless of merit
<Bluefoxicy> penguin42: it's like how you need to answer a simple math problem to get an account on Ubuntu QA
<penguin42> why who are they paying to answer those now?
<Bluefoxicy> This is a thing we've accepted.  35% of the adults in my city can't add 5 + 7
<Bluefoxicy> (my city's high school graduation rate is below 60%)
<penguin42> youch
<Bluefoxicy> To be fair, those people can't read or write either, so I don't think we should worry about disenfranchising anyone :P
<Bluefoxicy> that's what I need
<Bluefoxicy> I need a job in education.
<Bluefoxicy> I need to fix the school system here.  We have budget problems, in both directions--not enough money, but $13,000 per student per year and the facilities are falling apart and books are 40 years old and shared between students.
<Bluefoxicy> it's been a long time since I contributed anything to society--I worked at the US Social Security administration for a while, and now I work for a company that broadcasts network news media
#ubuntu-devel 2012-12-30
<palasso> Hello, I'm not sure if I'm in the right channel. I'd like to request for some packages to be included in the repos for the next Ubuntu release.
<njin> palasso: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopment/NewPackages
<palasso> thnx
#ubuntu-devel 2013-12-23
<xnox> cjwatson: yeap, that did it.
<shuduo> hi, anyone know where is right channel to discuss Ubuntu SDK issue if not here?
<xnox> shuduo: typically #ubuntu-touch and/or #ubuntu-app-devel. But do note it's coming up to hollidays seasons.
<xnox> shuduo: if no answer on irc, email ubuntu-phone mailing list (plenty of sdk questions answered) and/or file bugs on launchpad.
<shuduo> xnox: thanks. i aleady file a bug to website since they are different. but i can't find where to file bug for ubuntu-sdk
<xnox> shuduo: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ubuntu-ui-toolkit/+bugs is a good starting place.
<shuduo> xnox: in theory ubuntu-sdk don't provide scope template is not fault of ubunt-touch ;)
<xnox> shuduo: ah, templates are part of the qtcreator ubuntu plugin.
<shuduo> xnox: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu-ui-toolkit/+bug/1263593 already also affect ubuntu-ui-toolkit
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 1263593 in Ubuntu App Developer site "new Ubuntu SDK (Qt Creator 2.8.1) don't have unity scope project" [Undecided,New]
<xnox> shuduo: tweaked, moved to qtcreator-plugin-ubuntu project.
<xnox> shuduo: thanks =)
<shuduo> xnox: great. thanks.
<mlankhorst> ok I finished up the xorg lts-saucy stack preparations :P
<mardy> cjwatson: hi! Can I use the "Exec" field of a click hook to perform some checks and optionally return an error to prevent the installation of the click package?
<Laney> xnox: will look at some point
<Laney> christmas shenanigans
<xnox> Laney: all fixed now, i think.
<xnox> Laney: merry xmas ;-)
<cjwatson> mardy: You can't prevent installation as such, because Exec hooks necessarily run after the package has been unpacked
<cjwatson> mardy: If the command named in the Exec field of a hook returns non-zero then click will raise an exception
<cjwatson> mardy: We could debate whether something in the stack should remove the package again in that event, I suppose (though what if the hook still fails?)
<mardy> cjwatson: right, and I actually figured out that I don't need that; I was worried that a click package could install an Online Account plugin in ~/.local/... which would obscure a system plugin, but then realized that it will always have the click ID as namespace
<cjwatson> mardy: Right, that's a better answer indeed
<cjwatson> mardy: I'd be open to defining some other type of hook for pre-installation checks, but I'd prefer to do so in response to a need that isn't satisfied some other way so that I know we're designing it right :-)
<mardy> cjwatson: absolutely
<mardy> cjwatson: about bug 1245826, would you like me to work on that?
<ubottu> bug 1245826 in click (Ubuntu) "Allow applying a hook to multiple files" [Wishlist,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1245826
<cjwatson> mardy: oh, sure, if you like
<cjwatson> mardy: just make sure you include a doc update and tests
<mardy> cjwatson: OK, it's not my top priority ATM, but it might become it. :-) If/when I start working on it, I'll assign the bug to myself
<mlankhorst> cjwatson: well lts-saucy stack in NEW soon :P
<mlankhorst> who's doing 12.04.4 this time?
<caribou> what should be done when a FTBS on trusty-proposed is caused by a FTBS issue on Debian/sid ?
<caribou> the FTBS in question is seabios 1.7.3-3
<cjwatson> no different from any other cause
<cjwatson> just make sure to forward the fix to Debian
<caribou> cjwatson: it doesn't build on Sid because of the version of iasl that doesn't fit with seabios
<caribou> cjwatson: see http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=707454
<ubottu> Debian bug 707454 in src:seabios "seabios: FTBFS: src/acpi.c:489:14: error: 'ssdt_pcihp_name' undeclared (first use in this function)" [Serious,Open]
<caribou> cjwatson: last comment on the bug is that it will not build on Sid either
<cjwatson> caribou: I don't have any special expertise in this package, so no point telling me the details :)
<cjwatson> if you don't know how to fix it then you can always leave it for the Debian maintainer
<caribou> cjwatson: it was not specific to the package itself, but what do Ubuntu does whenit import a package that is FTBS on Debian as well ?
<caribou> cjwatson: but that's fine, I'll let it up to the DM to fix
<cjwatson> caribou: it FTBFS until somebody fixes it ...
<cjwatson> caribou: there's really nothing special about the *reason* for the FTBFS here
<cjwatson> caribou: it'll generally sit unmigrated in trusty-proposed
<cjwatson> as indeed I see is happening here
<caribou> cjwatson: ah, ok, that was my question
<caribou> cjwatson: thanks for the answer
<zyga> hi, is it possible to sync from debian NEW into ubuntu?
<cjwatson> No
<cjwatson> Because the files in NEW aren't publicly available
<zyga> ah, ok
<cjwatson> You can reupload manually if you have them, but it can be faster to just wait ... once ftpmaster processes something it'll be auto-synced without intervention, whereas manual uploads require manual attention from the Ubuntu side
<cjwatson> So it depends whether you think Debian ftpmasters or Ubuntu AAs will be faster :)
 * zyga wonders if he should wait $random amount of time for NEW to get processed or should he continue the motu path to get that package into ubuntu first
<cjwatson> Over the Christmas break I'd bet on the former if I were you
<zyga> cjwatson: I have no experience with either TBH :)
<cjwatson> Ubuntu NEW can be fairly random too for source uploads ...
<zyga> cjwatson: is a package going to be in NEW after each upload or just the initial release into debian?
<cjwatson> NEW means "package of that name not currently in that suite"
<zyga> ah, I see
<cjwatson> So you generally only hit it once per package unless you're backporting
<zyga> so subsequent updates should be fairly quickly, as in, sponsor-fast
<cjwatson> Yes
<cjwatson> hmph, python-numpy fails to build with python3.4 in python3-defaults
<cjwatson> I think I shall finish for the day (and year) rather than investigating :)
<xnox> ev: as much as we like to have a package that only builds on arm64 & ppc64el and fails elsewhere, I'm disabling valgrind across the board. Looks like it's reporting unrelated leakage or somesuch with new gtk3.10. This has been noticed across other #ps projects, so until that is fixed / valgrind filtered the build will run without valgrind.
<xnox> https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/whoopsie/0.2.24.2
<Logan_> xnox: Did you get my email?
<xnox> Logan_: yeah, it's all fixed =)
<xnox> Logan_: check out the hdf5 upload.
<xnox> (diff)
<Logan_> xnox: Oh sweet. Why was it disabled?
<xnox> Logan_: not only openmpi is arch restricted in debian/control, it was further "building empty package" in the debian/rules.
<xnox> Logan_: i presume the packager didn't spend time to filter and dynamically detect which backend default mpi is using & dynamically check if it's openmpi. Instead it got hard-coded twice.....
<Logan_> Okay. That whole thing is a mess, honestly.
<xnox> ev: https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/whoopsie/0.2.24.3 that is.
<xnox> Logan_: yeah. =)
<xnox> Logan_: similarly, if you expand http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-archive/transitions/html/openmpi1.6.html to include "good" you will notice how plenty of projects are not linking against openmpi on arm64/ppc64el. Sometimes it's because debian/rules and/or debian/control were restricted in a similar manner to hdf5, other-times it simply needs a no-change rebuild..... =)
 * xnox *hides*
<melodie> hello!
<melodie> I try to improve a remix I am working on. I have an issue with the integrity-check stanza. Where should I look to find what to fix?
<melodie> does someone know what triggers the integrity-check stanza in a live iso?
<slangasek> wow, schadenfreude. https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/base-files/+bug/1263672
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 1263672 in base-files (Ubuntu) "package base-files 6.5ubuntu6.6 failed to install/upgrade: ErrorMessage: pre-dependency problem - not installing base-files" [Undecided,New]
<infinity> slangasek: I have so many questions about that upgrade log...
#ubuntu-devel 2013-12-24
<bkerensa> Happy Holidays
<xPucTu4> thanks
<xPucTu4> happy holidays to you too
<xnox> It is pitch black. You are likely to be eaten by a grue.
<efe_> hi
<efe_> hi there
<efe_> any one here??
<ogra_`> xnox, didnt you have a yoga13 ? (my GF got one for christmas and i cant get the wlan to work, do you know if ther is a PPA or some such)
<xnox> ogra_`: compile from source.
<ogra_`> bah
<xnox> ogra_`: let me get you github repo
<ogra_`> i just tried from a tarball i found on a german forum but i get errors
<xnox> ogra_`: github is good and works with all kernels.
<ogra_`> k
<xnox> ogra_`: bluetooth also needs custom compile, but it doesn't work.
<ogra_`> she doesnt use BT ... thats fine
<ogra_`> but wlan has to :)
<xnox> ogra_`: https://github.com/lwfinger/rtl8723au_bt.git
<xnox> ogra_`: there are instructions to compile manually or using dkms. both work.
<xnox> ogra_`: apart from the repository / snapshot nothing else is needed, there is compiler and headers installed.
<ogra_`> right, i'm trying to roll the binary on my trusty XPS atm :)
<xnox> ogra_`: i wonder if I should package it, but then again, i've never packaged dkms modules.
<xnox> ogra_`: you need source on the target for each kernel upgrade.
<xnox> ogra_`: the abi is bumped and thus needs recompiles.
<ogra_`> yeah, once i have wlan ;)
<xnox> ogra_`: usb-stick for the win! =)
<xnox> ogra_`: you'll need to transfer binaries somehow in either case, so just take the source ;-)
<stgraber> slangasek: just to keep you in the loop. My PAM patch sent on the 7th of December to their ML got finally posted to the ML a couple of days ago but without any reply so far. The list seems mostly dead (no posts for December), so I'll be waiting until the 7th of January (a month after I first wrote the patch) and just push it to Ubuntu at that point.
<mitya57> jtaylor: do you know any blockers for having numpy 1.8 in trusty? I would like to have a fix for https://github.com/numpy/numpy/issues/3598, as we support python3.4 now
<mitya57> (1.8 available in experimental)
 * mitya57 notices that the current python-numpy FTBFS when rebuilt because of some Sphinx errors
<xnox> doko_: https://github.com/numpy/numpy/issues/3598 hm. can python fetch compile flags from dpkg-buildflags at all?
<xnox> instead of having it's own set, and possibly enabling hardening flags as well?
<xnox> (if at all appropriate)
<doko_> xnox, sorry, have to run ... numpy does all this on its own. standard extensions should get the correct build flags
<xnox> doko_: ok, thanks.
<xnox> doko_: have fun! =) and Merry Christmas.
<mitya57> Yes, the python3.4 transition is going to be fun
 * mitya57 has already two packages failing to build because of that
<xnox> mitya57: and it's very close to lts release date as well =/
<doko_> mitya57, for now it's "just" an experiment for the holidays when nobody is active =)
 * mitya57 will have holidays in February :)
<cjwatson> I'm working on fixing pygobject for 3.4
<cjwatson> It's going to need a partial conversion to non-recursive make, I think - that was the solution used in dbus-python
<cjwatson> (six years ago!)
<xnox> non-recursive make is the future! =)
<xnox> and subdir-objects
<jtaylor> mitya57: I wanted to merge numpy soon
<jtaylor> mitya57: the report you opened is a bug in python
<jtaylor> they can't export that flag via distutils
<jtaylor> it would break the world
<jtaylor> it might have already been reverted
<mitya57> jtaylor: actually, in my ppa numpy failed to build on i386, but with a different reason
<jtaylor> link?
<mitya57> one moment
<mitya57> jtaylor: https://launchpad.net/~mitya57/+archive/test2/+build/5382148
<jtaylor> hm
<jtaylor> might be a sphinx or jinja issue
<jtaylor> I'll check it when I see it on the numpy merge
<jtaylor> (possibly tomorrow)
<mitya57> Looks like doc/source/_templates/autosummary/class.rst tries to extend itself
<mitya57> Google only shows one 3-year-old Sphinx bug that was closed as invalid
<mitya57> In the current github snapshot that file is not changed, so it's unlikely that it's fixed
<slangasek> stgraber: which list did you post it to?  I didn't see it, so I suspect it went to the wrong list
<Logan_> But why. https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/binutils-msp430/2.22~msp20120406-3ubuntu1
<Logan_> Much chroot. Such problem. Wow.
<cjwatson> both retried
<cjwatson> just an unfortunate coincidence it seems
<Logan_> cjwatson: There were actually three chroot problems at ones. One of them was restarted by someone else, I think. :P
<Logan_> *once
<cjwatson> Logan_: that particular error relates to timing of the start of the build relative to the publisher cycle, so if all the builds start at very close to the same time ...
<Logan_> True.
<paddy> elky: you lost your fruit cake here. it smells bad already. or did you forget to take a shower?
<paddy> elky: the dumbest moment of this year - OF YOU  was to touch my arse when you wanted me gone from an OFFTOPIC channel
 * slangasek sighs
<paddy> see. there he is
<slangasek> paddy: you should not need to be told that this behavior is contrary to the Ubuntu code of conduct and not acceptable on this channel
<paddy> i told you my friends that Steve will be the first with his tongue in her arse
<paddy> always there when a pussy needs help
<paddy> so nice
<slangasek> !ops
<ubottu> Help! Channel emergency! mneptok, Hobbsee, cjwatson, mdz, lamont, Keybuk, or thom!
<elky> slangasek: the price we pay for not wanting to be cussed at, i'm afraid.
<slangasek> kees: around?
<paddy> *cry, cry, cry*
 * elky wanders off to find where he appears next
<slangasek> how has he not grown out of this?
#ubuntu-devel 2013-12-25
<Noskcaj> Can someone retry kombu? It's dep wait should be done
<slangasek> Noskcaj: in a particular hurry for it? dep-waits should clear themselves automatically
<Noskcaj> I was going to try and merge the new version from debian, but no real hurry.
<slangasek> Noskcaj: these two things are orthogonal
<slangasek> Noskcaj: anyway, the issue is that kombu is in main and python-beanstalkc is not; a retry won't change anything
<slangasek> someone needs to deal with an MIR appropriately
<Noskcaj> slangasek, oh, i hadn't noticed. I'll look into it tomrrow
<Noskcaj> Can someone make a transition for libgweather? we need to change from libgweather-3-3 to libgweather-3-6. I've got a bzr branch ready with the merge
<infinity> Noskcaj: You shouldn't need a transition tracker to rebuild 6 packages...
<infinity> Noskcaj: Make that 4 source packages.
<Noskcaj> infinity, ok, i'll put the merge proposal up later today
<xnox> slangasek: FYI, there is also #ubuntu-irc channel, where paddy was trying to reverse-ban you I think =)
<stgraber> slangasek: pam-developers
<stgraber> slangasek: https://lists.fedorahosted.org/pipermail/pam-developers/2013-December/thread.html
<ogra_`> stgraber, happy birthday !!
<mdeslaur> stgraber: happy birthday :)
<stgraber> ogra_`, mdeslaur: thanks!
<ari-tczew> cjwatson: @MoM, the whole *-manual pages have not been updated since 01-Aug-2013 15:12. is there any problem related to them?
<cjwatson> ari-tczew: oops, good catch, thanks.  Should be fixed in the next run
<cjwatson> ari-tczew: (http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-core-dev/merge-o-matic/trunk/revision/238)
<cjwatson> some day I must fix MoM's use of star imports so that pyflakes can work properly and warn me of this
<Noskcaj> Can someone check https://code.launchpad.net/~noskcaj/ubuntu/trusty/mighttpd2/ftbfs/+merge/194608 ?
<cjwatson> doko__: python3.4-config --configdir says /usr/lib/python3.4/config-3.4m, but only /usr/lib/python3.4/config-3.4m-i386-linux-gnu exists.  Which is right?
<cjwatson> doko__: (If the latter, I suspect we may have to rebuild a couple of packages, since I saw the bare 3.4m or similar cropping up in some module paths)
<cjwatson> Noskcaj: would prefer to do that in Debian; having Haskell stuff with Ubuntu deltas is a pain
<cjwatson> Noskcaj: I'll look at it with my Debian hat on tomorrow or so
<Noskcaj> cjwatson, Thanks
<brainwash> does anyone provide packages for the current devel release of bash (4.3)?
<brainwash> rc1 is already available, but I assume that the new release won't make in into trusty :/
<doko__> cjwatson, python3.4 is already building ...
<ari-tczew> thanks cjwatson for fixing
<cjwatson> doko__: ok, good
<cjwatson> doko__: heh, Dmitry noticed it with pyqt5, I noticed it with python-qt4 ...
<infinity> doko__: chroots are refreshed for your rebuild test, BTW.
 * infinity does a mass-give-back on ppc64el to see if anything sticks.
<doko__> infinity, good. can I start the test rebuild on all archs this time?
<infinity> doko__: I'd skip arm64 and ppc64el if I were you.  The arm64 buildds are having some I/O performance issues, so it probably wouldn't finish this century, and ppc64el is so new that I can't imagine you'll find new problems (plus see above, re: mass give-back)
<doko__> infinity, well, ppc64el would have the resources
<doko__> are all buildds now with 4k page kernels?
<infinity> Sure, I just doubt anything's changed in the last 3 weeks that would break it more than it's already broken. :)
<infinity> And no, only postal01 is a 4k kernel right now.
<doko__> well, should we change that for the test rebuild?
<infinity> I honestly don't see why we should bury our heads in the sand over userspace things that break on 64k pagesize kernels.
<infinity> Users *will* run in that configuration, even if we won't by default.
<infinity> Anyhow, I honestly see no value in a test rebuild on an arch we just bootstrapped a couple of weeks ago.
<infinity> I'll get different kernels out to all those buildds soonish, but it won't be right now, as I have to shower and head out to some turkey dinner madness.
<ari-tczew> xnox: ping
<xnox> ? just ask....
<xnox> ari-tczew: what's up?
<ari-tczew> xnox: in package argyll you have added a patch http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~noskcaj/ubuntu/trusty/argyll/merge/revision/27
<ari-tczew> debian got already another fix for this one http://paste.ubuntu.com/6636553/
<ari-tczew> can it be replaced? (mean dropped our patch)
<xnox> ari-tczew: if you know that it's equivalent, then yes.
<xnox> ari-tczew: i don't know if usb-db variables are needed or not. If the fix in debian was done, because indeed the usb-db is not needed with new enough udev then all is good.
<xnox> ari-tczew: if it was dropped, because one didn't know about builtins, then my patch correctly uses usb-db using the new api.
<xnox> ari-tczew: where do you see that debian patch from?
<xnox> ah http://bugs.debian.org/717504
<ubottu> Debian bug 717504 in argyll "Test for usb-db before using it / replaced by hwdb in newer udev releases" [Normal,Fixed]
<ari-tczew> xnox: debian bug 717504
<xnox> ari-tczew: that looks dubious, as the reasoning is more-or-less "to remove warning message on boot"
<xnox> ari-tczew: if you are looking into merging argyll, please keep the hwdb patch, and forward it to debian, as they do have recent enough udev now.
<ari-tczew> xnox: I see already Noskcaj has proposed to merge it ^^
<xnox> ari-tczew: hm. unless builtins are always run automatically....
<xnox> ari-tczew: i don't have a way to test this =/ so it was a blind compatibility fix.
#ubuntu-devel 2013-12-26
<Logan_> why did someone retry all of my ppc64el packages
<cjwatson> Logan_: mass retry to see what stuck after the first big pass
<Noskcaj> What DMB category would i go in for xubuntu packageset?
<Noskcaj> And is there a way i can apply by email or at a different time? 15UTC is impossible, and 19UTC is difficult and on the first day back at school
<mitya57> doko: nitime built!
<mitya57> doko: and pyqt5 as well, thanks for fixing python3.4-config
<infinity> postgres (24516): /proc/24516/oom_adj is deprecated, please use /proc/24516/oom_score_adj instead.
<infinity> Oh, pitti's not here to annoy with that. :P
<infinity> They really should fix that upstream some year.
<maxiaojun> ibus candidate window always off screen when using xchat
<xperia> hi. small question. is it possible to build ubuntu touch without using and depending on android? i want a ubuntu linux distro with ubuntu touch. how can this be maked the best and easy way? any known instructions ?
<knocte> if I have a GTK app that errored out and therefore sent some data to stderr, what file should I look at to see that info?
<knocte> (~/.xsession-errors doesn't seem to be the one)
<brainwash> knocte: try ~/.cache/upstart/
<knocte> brainwash: thanks, but that folder doesn't exist here
<knocte> I'm using ubuntu raring fwiw
<brainwash> knocte: oh, why do you ask in this channel then?
<brainwash> you should join #ubuntu :)
<knocte> brainwash: because I'm a developer trying to resolve the bug that the gtk app has? normally normal users don't even (and shouldn't) know what stderr is ;)
<brainwash> if .xsession-errors does not contain any errors/warnings, you could open a terminal window and start your application
<knocte> brainwash: that doesn't work if the bug is difficult to reproduce
<Noskcaj> Would someone mind adding a section to http://packaging.ubuntu.com/html/fixing-ftbfs.html about fixing linking issues?
<xnox> Noskcaj: https://wiki.debian.org/ToolChain/DSOLinking ?
<Noskcaj> xnox, I know the page exists, i'm just saying it would eb good to have a basic explanation of what to do in our guide, since a lot of ftbfs packagess are from this
<xnox> Noskcaj: there is a link to report bugs against the guide on the bottom of it, please report bugs there.
<cjwatson> Surely the packaging guide is about the worst place to collect information on fixing classes of problems, since it's hard to modify
<cjwatson> Wikis are much better for this
<cjwatson> doko: it looks like you need to fix the dependencies in python3.4/debian/tests/control - https://jenkins.qa.ubuntu.com/view/Trusty/view/AutoPkgTest/job/trusty-adt-python3.4/23/ARCH=amd64,label=adt/artifact/results/log
<cjwatson> or it's late in Germany, I suppose I can do it :)
<cjwatson> doko: uploaded http://launchpadlibrarian.net/160727344/python3.4_3.4~b1-4ubuntu1_3.4~b1-4ubuntu2.diff.gz
#ubuntu-devel 2013-12-27
<Noskcaj> Logan_, has my packaging quality improved enough for a testimonial? If not, i've got at least 10 reviews waiting, plus another 10 in debian
<Logan_> Noskcaj: I honestly haven't done much of your stuff recently
<Noskcaj> I'm just going around asking everyone possible for testimonials so i can apply by email, since irc isn;t really an option for me at the times available
<maxiaojun> any reason trusty always show "The update information is outdated ..." ?
<cjwatson> doko: Can you figure out this python3.4 autopkgtest failure?  It's complaining about not being able to import runpy, but when I run the test manually the traceback ends inside Lib/runpy.py, so I'm pretty sure the exception is lying
<cjwatson> doko: http://paste.ubuntu.com/6646639/
<doko> cjwatson, yes, it fails during the build too. did you look at the others too?
<cjwatson> doko: no, I was misled by the "failures=1".  But several of the others seem to be broadly the same pattern
<doko> now generating locales for the test too
<maxiaojun> anyone take care of software-center?
<darklight_> is there a chance for this https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/unity/+bug/775434 to be fixed? honestly it's a moronic design for shortcuts to be hardcoded and nobody seems to fix it release after release
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 775434 in unity (Ubuntu) "Keyboard shortcut - Make Unity keyboard shortcuts configurable" [High,Triaged]
<vlad_starkov> Question: Installing Ubuntu Server 12.04 LTS 64bit. While installing it asked to choose the kernel. What should I choose? See sccreenshot http://cl.ly/image/1p2c0w043V3V
<TJ-> vlad_starkov: please don't ask in multiple channels simultaneously
<vlad_starkov> I never seen this message before
<zyga> vlad_starkov: I suspect that is the hardware enablement thing
<vlad_starkov> TJ-: I just thought that different channels have difference audience
<zyga> vlad_starkov: you can choose a kernel from the more recent releases, to get hardware enablement for current hardware
<zyga> vlad_starkov: aka 12.04.{123}
<vlad_starkov> zyga: I'm installing Ubuntu Server on server (2xXeon, VT-x)
<zyga> well, with commas inside { }
<zyga> vlad_starkov: pick any that works with your hardware if you have no special needs (like you need a particular kernel feature only available in future kernels)
<vlad_starkov> zyga: I'm pretty newbie to Linux and don't completely understand the kernel stuff
<zyga> vlad_starkov: then just pick the -lts-raring kernel
<vlad_starkov> zyga: I'm using 2xSSD + 4xHDD on server
<vlad_starkov> zyga: which one of "-lts-raring" there are 4 of them
<zyga> vlad_starkov: if you have haswell CPU pick more recent kernel
<zyga> vlad_starkov: hmm
<zyga> vlad_starkov: linux-generic-lsts-raring or -signed- if you are using secure boot
<vlad_starkov> I have Intel Xeon E5345
<vlad_starkov> zyga: I'm using RAID + encryption + LVM
<zyga> vlad_starkov: the ones with explicit version numbers will be pulled in implicitly by the meta package that you are currently installing (if it makes no sense to you then just pick what I said)
<zyga> vlad_starkov: also, this is a development channel you may want to go to #ubuntu for support
<zyga> vlad_starkov: happy holidays :)
<vlad_starkov> zyga: hey, thank you for your help
<vlad_starkov> zyga: just last question, what does "secure boot" mean?
<zyga> vlad_starkov: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unified_Extensible_Firmware_Interface#Secure_boot_2
<vlad_starkov> zyga: I'm posting here because in #ubuntu nobody can give an answer for such tricky question. But I was sure that there is someone in dev channel who can
<zyga> vlad_starkov: this is not a support channel, you may have better luck next year, many people are on hoildays
<zyga> vlad_starkov: if you need you can alwas purchase paid support
<vlad_starkov> zyga: I have nothing against paid support, I wish there is a per-question paid support :)
<vlad_starkov> zyga: thanks for helping!
<vlad_starkov> zyga: happy holidays!
<zyga> vlad_starkov: there is support like that
<zyga> vlad_starkov: http://www.canonical.com/enterprise-services/ubuntu-advantage/support
<zyga> http://shop.canonical.com/index.php?cPath=41_39
<zyga> vlad_starkov: you may also want to compare offers: http://www.canonical.com/enterprise-services/ubuntu-advantage/server
<vlad_starkov> zyga: hm this is per year subscription
<vlad_starkov> zyga: I'll consider authorized support next year
<vlad_starkov> thanks for tip
<vlad_starkov> Question: After install Ubuntu Server 12.04 64bit, got messages like "BUG: soft lockup â CPU#7 stuck for 22s". I can't even boot the system. Is it a known bug?
<vlad_starkov> screenshot http://cl.ly/image/221D100o3W3S/o
<infinity> vlad_starkov: Does it do this on every boot, to the point where you can't even get to userspace and login?
<vlad_starkov> infinity: Yes, on every boot
<infinity> vlad_starkov: That's not necessarily a known bug (soft lockups can happen for any number of reasons), but filing a bug on the kernel with enough info to debug would be helpful.  Being able to log in would be more helpful.
<infinity> vlad_starkov: Which installation media did you use?
<vlad_starkov> I have read somewhere that if I make "apt-get install intel-microcode microcode.ctl" it will solve the problem. But I can't install anything as I even don't have booted system.
<vlad_starkov> infinity: Flash 8GB
<infinity> vlad_starkov: Well, that advice may or may not be true, depending on the CPU and kernel version.  Like I said, soft lockups can happen for any number of reasons.
<infinity> vlad_starkov: Sorry, I didn't actually mean "what media", but "what did you write to it"?  12.04, 12.04.3, desktop, server, d-i mini.iso, etc.
<vlad_starkov> infinity: How to make sure that it is now HW problem?
<infinity> vlad_starkov: Basically, trying to sort out if you installed a 3.2, 3.5, or 3.8 kernel, and what exact version. :P
<vlad_starkov> infinity: ubuntu-12.04.3-server-amd64
<vlad_starkov> infinity: the kernel was as selected on this screenshot http://cl.ly/image/1p2c0w043V3V
<vlad_starkov> infinity: how can I check it?
<infinity> vlad_starkov: Right, so, to get you out of your jam, I'd recommend installing from http://old-releases.ubuntu.com/releases/precise/ubuntu-12.04.1-server-amd64.iso
<infinity> vlad_starkov: Which will give you a 3.2 kernel instead.
<vlad_starkov> hmm ok
<infinity> vlad_starkov: And then if you confirm that works, it might be nice for you to work with the folks in #ubuntu-kernel (perhaps after the new year, when everyone's back from holiday) to debug why 3.8 hates your computer.
<vlad_starkov> but then if I make apt-get update will it install the newer kernel version and the system will fail again?
<infinity> vlad_starkov: But that bit's up to you.  If you just need a machine running today and can't really sacrifice it to debugging, such is life.
<infinity> vlad_starkov: No, update/upgrade will keep you on the 3.2 kernel if you install with it.
<brainwash> my 13.10 system wasn't bootable either after I've upgraded the kernel from 3.12 to 3.13, same cpu soft lockup message
<infinity> vlad_starkov: 12.04 and 12.04.1 use "linux-generic (3.2)", 12.04.2 uses "linux-generic-lts-quantal (3.5)", and 12.04.3 uses "linux-generic-lts-saucy (3.8)"
<infinity> brainwash: To be fair, while the message was the same, the bug probably wasn't.
<vlad_starkov> oh, I see
<infinity> brainwash: But please do file a bug, or annoy the kernel people on IRC.
<infinity> (or both)
<brainwash> infinity: right, thanks to your conversation I got reminded to actually report this bug :)
<vlad_starkov> infinity: when I reinstall Ubuntu should I repartition everything again? (I have encrypted disks)
<infinity> vlad_starkov: That's between you and the installer. :)
<vlad_starkov> infinity: I mean, the installer doesn't see encrypted raid disks. Is it possible somehow to unlock it, so installer will see everything?
<infinity> vlad_starkov: I'm not sure, to be honest.  Probably a question better aimed at xnox.
<infinity> xnox: ^
<vlad_starkov> infinity: I mean I can go to console and make cryptsetup luksOpen on every md device. But not sure that installer then will see it.
<infinity> vlad_starkov: If you create/mount partitions at a shell and then return to d-i, partman will see them as valid installation targets, yes.
<vlad_starkov> Ok, I'll try
<infinity> vlad_starkov: But you may need to do some manual setup in /target to generate an initrd that will unlock tihngs properly on first boot, I suspect the installer only "knows" about crypt setup for encrypted things it setup itself.
<infinity> vlad_starkov: But I don't do crypted stuff terribly often, so that's just based on my knowledge of d-i and some educated guesses, not actual experience.
<TJ-> In the target chroot, it requires an "apt-get install cryptsetup",  "update-initramfs ..." to install the cryptsetup and cryptab pre-requisites
<vlad_starkov> infinity: by the way, on 13.10 I got the same messages
<TJ-> vlad_starkov: It sounds like a potential IRQ issue, maybe needs kernel command-line options such as "nolapic"
<infinity> vlad_starkov: Kay.  And I'd expect you would in 13.04 as well (since that's where your precise kernel was backported from).
<infinity> If it happens with a 3.2 kernel as well, I'd agree that the next step it trying fun kernel commandline options.
<vlad_starkov> TJ-: I tried nolapic, noapic and acpi=off. No effect
<TJ-> vlad_starkov: I had a similar issue with a Dell PowerEdge box
<vlad_starkov> TJ-: so how did you solve it?
<infinity> Probably also possible to boot it with 'nosmp', at least long enough to get debugging info out of it.
<TJ-> vlad_starkov: Have you tried booting it to a LiveCD image? Sometimes that can work when an installed system won't, which gives you a base to work from in solving the issue.
<infinity> The important thing here is to realise that how other people solved it, while all interesting things for you to try, are not necessarily the solution for you. :P
<infinity> "BUG: soft lockup" can be caused by any number of actual bugs.
<TJ-> vlad_starkov: I seem to recall I installed the most recent kernel from main-line
<infinity> TJ-: Well, he can boot the installer so, yes.  He can boot the kernel without a full userspace.
<TJ-> infinity: Yeah... but with the liveCD it's easier to work with additional tools than from the server install ISO, I find anyhow
<infinity> TJ-: Given how quickly his machine explodes after running init, I'd give 20-to-1 odds that the livecd (with the same kernel, anyway) would fail just as hard.
<infinity> Unless the added latency from running from slow media avoided whatever spinlock races he's hitting by sheer force of luck. :P
<vlad_starkov> TJ-: I tried ubuntu-12-1.04.2-desktop-i386 and it is the same
<TJ-> It looks like something on the PCI-X bridge
<vlad_starkov> infinity: Probably it makes sense to try ubuntu-12.04.1-desktop-i386 at first?
<TJ-> the two devices locked up are chipset FSB registers, and the PCI-express to PCI-X bridge
<vlad_starkov> TJ-: I have PCI-X there
<infinity> vlad_starkov: Sure.
<vlad_starkov> TJ-: probably I need to adjust something in BIOS? The machine is Supermicro 6015B-TB
<TJ-> vlad_starkov: I've had success allowing the PCI subsystem to remap bridges where their windows are too small for devices within them: "pci=realloc" added to kernel command line
<vlad_starkov> infinity: downloading ubuntu-12.04.1-desktop-amd64.iso
<vlad_starkov> infinity: TJ-: param nosmp is not supported, param pci=realloc does nothing
<TJ-> vlad_starkov: Shame, worth a shot. If you have physical access to the server it could be worth removing the PCI-X devices to determine if thats where the lockups are coming from.
<vlad_starkov> TJ-: I'm in datacenter in front of server. There is no PCI-X devices
<TJ-> vlad_starkov: OK, I've been there done that! If there are no PCI-X devices, and the hangs are in modprobe when loading drivers for the PCI-X bridge and system chipset, that suggests a shared IRQ imay be the root issue
<vlad_starkov> ubuntu-12.04.1-desktop-amd64 boots so slow...
<vlad_starkov> Almost done. "* Starting configure network device security [OK]"
<brainwash> any reason why only trusty is stuck on firefox 25? firefox 26 is available via proposed
<brainwash> https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/firefox
<maxiaojun> +
<vlad_starkov> TJ-: infinity: Given I boot from installer flash drive. Then I go to console. Then I mount my /boot and / partitions to /media/sda1 and /media/sda2. Then I need to install microcode.ctl tool with intel-microcode packages to sda2. Is possible to implement it from installer console?
<TJ-> vlad_starkov: You'd be better off mounting /boot/ inside / ... as in "mkdir /mnt/target && mount /dev/sda2 /mnt/target && mkdir -p /mnt/target/boot && mount /dev/sda1 /mnt/target/boot". That'll allow you to use chroot if necessary.
<vlad_starkov> TJ-: will chroot help me to install software to my system on ssd?
<vlad_starkov> TJ-: I'm not familiar with chroot
<TJ-> vlad_starkov: Depends on whether you need to configure the target system from within the installer or liveCD environment. You may need it to edit and rebuild configurations if the server fails to boot
<vlad_starkov> TJ-: I can't boot with liveCD. Installer is the only option.
<TJ-> vlad_starkov: Another option for the kernel's command-line you might find useful is "debug" whilst ensuring that any "quiet splash" are removed, to ensure maximum kernel debug messages
<vlad_starkov> TJ-: "debug" should be boot param?
<TJ-> vlad_starkov: OK, so you're hitting an init issue. You might be able to capture more information using a combination of "debug" and "break=..." where ... is one of the break-points in the initrd init script, prior to the upstart init daemon being started
<TJ-> vlad_starkov: correct
<TJ-> vlad_starkov: It enables maximum kernel messages
<vlad_starkov> TJ-: hmm, ok fine. I'll try to add debug in boot params.
<TJ-> vlad_starkov: I'm just grabbing the list of break-points for you
<vlad_starkov> TJ-: could you guide me with break-points (I understand the point but don't know how to implement it)
<vlad_starkov> thnx
<vlad_starkov> TJ-: grub says that "debug" is not valid option
<vlad_starkov> infinity: TJ-: I have 3.8.0-29-generic kernel
<TJ-> vlad_starkov: I believe you may have added the option as a separate line, rather than as part of the "linux ..." line
<vlad_starkov> TJ-: yes, shouldn't I?
<TJ-> vlad_starkov: For the "break=..." option to drop to a shell during initrd, these are the options: "top modules premount mount mountroot bottom init". They are in order from earliest to latest... I'd suggest trying the latest "init" first and if you get that far, you know the problem is caused when the real /sbin/init upstart daemon is started and the real root file-system is mounted
<TJ-> vlad_starkov: The kernel command-line options must go on the "linux ..." line ... which often wraps around in the grub editor, which causes confusion
<TJ-> vlad_starkov: All other lines are for grub itself
<vlad_starkov> TJ-: funny))
<vlad_starkov> TJ-: then I'll try all the params again, as I was mistakenly added them with the new lines
<TJ-> vlad_starkov: Ahhhh! sorry, I assumed you already knew how to do this :)
<vlad_starkov> )
<vlad_starkov> TJ-: with "acpi=off noapic nolapic" it behaves a bit different. Is stops on "e1000e ... (unregistered net_device): Failed to initialize MSI interrupts. Falling back to legacy interrupts."
<vlad_starkov> TJ-: and then "/sbin/modprobe -bv pci:........"
<TJ-> vlad_starkov: Yes, most systems these days can't function well without ACPI ... I'd try "nolapic" on its own, not with "noapic", as another permutation
<vlad_starkov> TJ-: ok, so should I remove "acpi=off" as well?
<TJ-> vlad_starkov: I would, yes.
<vlad_starkov> TJ-: trying...
<vlad_starkov> TJ-: "nolapic" does nothing. Got soft lockup messages again
<TJ-> vlad_starkov: OK ... are you also including "debug" at this time? I'd use that now and hope the kernel outputs more info which you can screen-capture
<vlad_starkov> TJ-: nope. Have to try again with "nolapic debug"
<TJ-> vlad_starkov: If you're not getting better results with "nolapic" I'd not use that anymore since it isn't helping
<vlad_starkov> TJ-: hmm it seems debug doesn't output any additional messages
<TJ-> vlad_starkov: shame, but when dealing with these issues its always good to have it on the kernel command-line in case it reveals more information. Did you also remember to remove any "quiet" or "splash" entries? Those will cancel out what "debug" does
<vlad_starkov> TJ-: there is only "ro" param by default. Now try to add "debug maxcpus=1 "
<vlad_starkov> Nothing
<vlad_starkov> TJ-: OK, probably it's time to try chroot to "apt-get install intel-microcode microcode.ctl" on systems ssd
<vlad_starkov> TJ-: As https://www.kernel.org/doc/Documentation/kernel-parameters.txt implies, I had to do "debug ignore_loglevel" instead of just "debug"
<vlad_starkov> TJ-: Yay, now I have debug messages
<vlad_starkov> "intel_rng: FWH not detected"
<TJ-> vlad_starkov: That's what I love about linux, being able to see precisely what it is up to
<TJ-> vlad_starkov: intel_rng report is a minor one, not related to the soft lockups.
<vlad_starkov> Hmm, modules linked in: intel_rng(F-) floppy(F+).....
<vlad_starkov> TJ-: what does all these F- and F+ means?
<vlad_starkov> TJ-: "... e1000e: .... Interrupt Throttling Rate (ints/sec) set to dynamic conservative mode"
<vlad_starkov> TJ-: is it fine that my hard drives is in AHCI mode?
<TJ-> vlad_starkov: AHCI is the better mode, usually
<vlad_starkov> TJ-: should check jampers on motherboard?
<TJ-> vlad_starkov: If the kernel is using AHCI mode for the drives that support it, that is fine.
<vlad_starkov> TJ-: this problems makes the server overheat
<TJ-> overheating sounds like a symptom of the CPUs not being idled
<vlad_starkov> TJ-: yepp
<TJ-> vlad_starkov: The (F-) are module flags; "-" means "being unloaded", "+" means "being loaded". "F" means 'forced'
<vlad_starkov> TJ-: Now I tried "debug ignore_loglevel acpi=off". The systems boots fast until "microcode: CPU0 sig=0x6f7, pf=0x40, revision=0x69". After that it freezes, and then something new appeared: "Watchdog detected hard LOCKUP on cpu 4"
<TJ-> vlad_starkov: makes sense, since without ACPI some core sub-systems won't be initialised correctly
<vlad_starkov> TJ-: Ok
<vlad_starkov> TJ-: so, what next? :)
<TJ-> vlad_starkov: ACPI == Advanced Configuration and Power Interface, and it contains definitions of all the key hardware sub-systems and embedded controller(s)
<vlad_starkov> TJ-: is it possible to disable all the CPU cores but one
<TJ-> vlad_starkov: I'd try adding "break=init" to what you have already and seeing if you can get to the initrd shell prompt without seeing the CPU lockups
<vlad_starkov> OK, I'll try it now
<vlad_starkov> Strange thing.... 5 years ago this server used to boot normal with ESX
#ubuntu-devel 2013-12-28
<vlad_starkov> TJ-: OK, "(initramfs)" appears :)
<TJ-> vlad_starkov: OK, so that confirms that its something caused during the upstart init process... so its a case of figuring that out now. First, lets try booting to a bash shell instead of starting upstart. Remove "break=init" and add "init=/bin/bash" and reboot. If that works, you've booted into the real root file-system but used BASH as the init process... which'll not do any configuration
<vlad_starkov> TJ-: OK, I'll try it now...
<vlad_starkov> TJ-: it doesn't freeze now, but it stops with blinking cursor, and it doesn't ask for crypt passphrase as usual
<TJ-> vlad_starkov: Aha... well that makes sense!
<TJ-> vlad_starkov: OK... you can lose the "init=/bin/bash" since with using cryptsetup the init rules need to run to unlock the volume
<vlad_starkov> TJ-: yepp
<vlad_starkov> TJ-: is there any option?
<TJ-> vlad_starkov: None I can think of right now... having encryption complicates the debug process immensely. Is there a spare (bootable) disk in there you could install an unencrypted testing environment into?
<vlad_starkov> TJ-: this server is empty, I can reinstall the system on it
<TJ-> vlad_starkov: without hands/eyes-on its very hard to work with these kinds of issues... often I spot subtle clues which isn't easy to do with IRC in the way
<vlad_starkov> TJ-: You're right
<vlad_starkov> TJ-: so could you point me to the right way, what strategy should I apply?
<vlad_starkov> TJ-: As I see now, the point is to reinstall system without encryption. Then try to boot, if it still doesn't boot, try "init=/bin/bash". If it boots this way, try to make something in /sbin/init
<TJ-> vlad_starkov: My next step would be to create a minimal command-line environment installation on a USB flash storage device (I actually carry one around with me for this kind of situation) that would then allow me to selective disable kernel modules that I can see being loaded, until I find the module(s) causing the lockups
<vlad_starkov> TJ-: sounds awesome. Is there a fast and easy way to make it? (some manual you could recommend)
<TJ-> vlad_starkov: If you can get into /bin/bash, you're in the read-write root file-system, and can then edit files in /etc/modprobe.d/ to blacklist modules that you suspect are to blame for the lockups. It's an iterative process using guesswork, hunches, and clues from the logs in /var/log/ .. especially /var/log/dmesg and /var/log/kern.log and /var/log/udev
<vlad_starkov> TJ-: I understand
<TJ-> vlad_starkov: I've never come across one; this kind of sys-admin stuff comes from lots of experience with similar problems which develops an intuition about it
<vlad_starkov> TJ-: Which distro do you recommend for usb?
<TJ-> vlad_starkov: Ubuntu :) Mine starts from an ubuntu-minimal install and then has had all my preferred tools added. You can do something similar by installing from the Ubuntu server ISO to a USB device and not selecting any server packages, and then customising it after it has managed to boot (assuming it can!)
<vlad_starkov> TJ-: Am I right thinking that I can do the same with Ubuntu installer?
<TJ-> vlad_starkov: The server installer? That was the one I was referring to. I don't think it can be done automatically from the LiveCD installer.
<vlad_starkov> TJ-: I think, this is what I need https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LiveUsbPendrivePersistent
<TJ-> vlad_starkov: I'd guess, being a LiveCD image, it'll hang like the liveCD itself does. That's why these situations need a really minimal non-GUI install
<TJ-> vlad_starkov: What you need is something that you can easily change the boot process on and will do the absolute minimum necessary to get to a working terminal
<vlad_starkov> TJ-: I understand. So don't you know if there "ready to burn" clone of working minimal ubuntu that I can download and dd to my usb flash?
<vlad_starkov> TJ-: for the moment all I found is how to install Linux on USB
<TJ-> It's so long since I needed that I don't know; I've always created my own
<vlad_starkov> TJ-: Is it possible to make it with 1 MacBook and 1 USB flash stick?
<TJ-> vlad_starkov: a USB device is the same as any other disk as far as installing goes. You only need 'special' measures for USB if creating a clone of a LiveCD ISO image
<vlad_starkov> TJ-: as I understood I need kinda virtualization environment (program like VirtualBox) in which I should run Ubuntu Server installer and then I have to choose USB stick as a hard drive on which the installation should be done
<TJ-> vlad_starkov: That sounds about right, yes
<vlad_starkov> TJ-: do you know if the Parallels is suitable for it?
<TJ-> I'd assume any hypervisor should be OK for doing that
<vlad_starkov> TJ-: Ok, I'm in.
<vlad_starkov> TJ-: ls /etc/modprobe.d:
<vlad_starkov> TJ-: there are only blacklist files
<TJ-> vlad_starkov: You mean you've booted the server successfully to a /bin/bash prompt?
<vlad_starkov> TJ-: ooops, that's my fault, I understood that I do incorrectly just a second ago
<vlad_starkov> TJ-: How to know what kernel modules are being loaded on boot?
<TJ-> vlad_starkov: By reading the previous boot's log-files in /var/log/ ... the previous boot(s) will have log-files with names including a "0" or "1", especially dmesg and kern.log
<vlad_starkov> TJ-: in my syslog I have multiple *BAD*gran_size messages, is it normal?
<TJ-> vlad_starkov: I don't recognise that message and no it doesn't sound normal
<vlad_starkov> TJ-: there are only media-info and syslog in /var/log
<TJ-> vlad_starkov: I think I'd start by looking at all the PCI hardware recognised by "lspci -nn" ... then I'd look-up the PCI device_vendor IDs of each device and locate the kernel module that drives it, and disable them one at a time by adding their names to a blacklist file in /etc/modprobe.d/ before booting normally (but with "debug") and seeing if the soft lockups go away
<vlad_starkov> TJ-: Found in /var/log/upstart/module-init-tools.log: "FATAL: Module rtc not found."
<JanC> some people/discussions with/about that error mention booting with the 'disable_mtrr_cleanup' kernel parameter as a workaround?
<JanC> also, sometimes it helps to change the amount of RAM available to an on-board GPU to the minimum?
<TJ-> vlad_starkov: I have to go to bed now, but I've written a compact BASH scriptlet that will determine what loadable kernel modules are required just by using the output of lspci, which you can run from the "init=/bin/bash" terminal without having to run upstart. http://paste.ubuntu.com/6648944/
<vlad_starkov> TJ-: Thanks! You helped me so much today
<vlad_starkov> TJ-: I appreciate it! Thank you for your time
<TJ-> vlad_starkov: The output lists, for each device, any loadable kernel modules that can manage the device. Those are the module names you should add to blacklist entries in "/etc/modprobe.d/blacklist-testing.conf" in the form of one per line "blacklist <module_name>"
<Logan_> xnox: tsp tsp, synced over your own autoreconf delta, and now it's not building on ppc64el: https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/trusty/+source/ntrack/016-1.2 Want me to reintroduce it?
<Logan_> *tsk tsk lol
<TJ-> vlad_starkov: This is example output, from my laptop: http://paste.ubuntu.com/6648963/
<xnox> Logan_: did I? *sigh* yes, please.
<Logan_> doing
<vlad_starkov> TJ-: OK
<vlad_starkov> TJ-: will try it tomorrow
<TJ-> vlad_starkov: Good luck with it
<vlad_starkov> TJ-: Thanks
<TJ-> vlad_starkov: Be best to continue support in #ubuntu-server rather than this channel, too; this is for Ubuntu development not user support. I'm in that channel too
<vlad_starkov> TJ-: I'll find you there. Would be glad to continue discussing this problem later on
<uBUXUBu> odd behaviour in ubunut software center-crashed-report sent-after crash software center acting strange-when i tried to read about software packages they were all blanked out and had lines drawn thru them as though someone had taken a pencil and scrathced things out? very bizarre-rebooted all normal?
<uBUXUBu> ubuntu*
<uBUXUBu> odd cause in using 12.04 LTS
<darkxst> uBUXUBu, file a bug with a screenshot
<uBUXUBu> well as i just said i rebooted and its gone
<uBUXUBu> but i did file report
<ogra_`> ogra      2038  4.6 53.6 8997504 4076544 ?     Ssl  Dez11 1119:24 /usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/hud/hud-service
<ogra_`> hmm
<ogra_`> 4G for the hud ...
<infinity> adconrad  2559  0.0  0.1 372556 29996 ?        Ssl  Dec21   4:14 /usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/hud/hud-service
<infinity> I think you've done something special to yours.
<ogra_`> well, not that i know of ... i use it ...
<ogra_`> i wonder fi it caches all requests ever made in a session
<ogra_`> i suspect a reboot is in order ...
 * ogra_` glares at update-manager ... 
<ogra_`> why the heck do i have texlive-latex-extra-doc installed ... and why is it 300MB bit !!
<ogra_`> *big
<ogra_`> argh
<ogra_`> i think this upgrade killed my libcd
<ogra_`> *libc
 * ogra_` gets a "file not found" for everything 
<ogra_`> sigh
<cjwatson> ogra_`: If you had libc6-amd64:i386 installed, see the instructions near the top of https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Touch/Emulator
<ogra_`> i surely had, and usually make sure it doesnt get uninstalled
<ogra_`> seems soemthing removed it
<cjwatson> The upgrade from 2.17 to 2.18 may have had similar effects to uninstallation
<ogra_`> ah
<cjwatson> (Perhaps, I don't know)
<ogra_`> hmm
<ogra_`> i still have 2.17 installed
<ogra_`> sigh, and i cant sudo indeed
<ogra_`> sigh
 * ogra_` fixes the instructions on the wiki ... linking to the linker of the initrd kind of doesnt really work :P
<ogra_`> cjwatson, thanks !
<ogra_`> (all back up again)
<xnox> How to do a fakesync, when debian's dfsg'ed upstream version number is lower than ubuntu's dfsg'ed upstream version number?
<xnox> opencolorio 1.0.8~dfsg0-2.1 (debian), 1.0.8+repack1-0ubuntu3 (ubuntu)
 * xnox is thinking to rename debian's tarball into 1.0.8+repack2 and write a sensible explanatory changelog entry that this is in-fact a fake-sync.
#ubuntu-devel 2013-12-29
<Logan_> xnox: I'm getting mediatomb back in sync with Debian. Actually ready to upload. Any objections, as the last uploader? ;)
<Logan_> (I can't imagine why you'd object to a complex merge that you don't have to do.)
<slangasek> Logan_: the Debian package doesn't have upstart support.  (LP: #212441) How are you getting it in sync without causing regressions in Ubuntu?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 212441 in mediatomb (Debian) "Mediatomb Init Script not working : upnp error -117" [Unknown,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/212441
<Logan_> slangasek: By "in sync," I meant merging. :P
<slangasek> oh, that's a rather confusing use of the term ;)
<Logan_> Well, out of the -0ubuntu black hole, better yet.
<Logan_> Well, since xnox didn't really do much in his last upload (just imported a patch from Debian, instead of merging), I'm going to assume that it's okay to merge, I think.
<Logan_> Or should I wait? I don't know. I'll give a day for him to respond. :P
<infinity> Logan_: Given the history, I think you can fairly confidently assume he doesn't care about having TIL on it.
<Logan_> Yay.
<infinity> Logan_: micahg might care (the last person to upload a -ubuntu1)
<Logan_> Too late.
<Logan_> :P
<infinity> Logan_: But that was in maverick. :P
<Logan_> Is there a record for the oldest built package still in trusty's repositories?
<Logan_> I've seen some that were built in edgy.
<infinity> There may even be one or two from dapper.
<infinity> Not sure the easiest way to extract that.
<Logan_> I feel like I'm destroying history when I fix ppc64el FTBFSes on those packages.
 * Logan_ sheds a tear.
<infinity> You could fudge something together with the LP API.  It would be a bit of a lie for anything pre-dapper.
<infinity> Logan_: Look on the bright side, you're getting things built with a modern toolchain with stack protection and such.
<Logan_> Okay, now I feel better. ;P
<Logan_> I'm surprised at how receptive Debian maintainers have been to my ppc64el autoreconf patches, since they would gain no benefit except for a longer build time from them.
<Logan_> And it doesn't look like Debian will be supporting ppc64el any time soon, given an ML thread I read.
<Logan_> Should I be submitting those patches? Because they have been merging them...
<infinity> Logan_: autoreconf patches should be a no-brainer for future-proofing.  The times when one has to hand-patch configure are probably a harder sell (and I've not forwarded many of those yet).
<Logan_> Yeah, true.
<infinity> Logan_: Submit away.  Anything merged by Debian is something we don't need to worry about as a downstream, so that's a win.
<Logan_> I feel like the myriads of warnings from autoreconf should lead to patches submitted to upstream as well to fix their autotools files. That's going to bite us in the rear end in the future.
<Logan_> Because it seems like so much is being deprecated so quickly.
<infinity> Not that quickly, it's just that a lot of upsteams are stuck in the past. :P
<Logan_> Hey, do you think I'd be an alright candidate for core-dev? I feel like I need to package at least one thing from scratch first to show that I can do that.
<infinity> I think you probably need to learn to be a bit more careful first, and ask (or leave things alone) a bit more often, but you're on the right track.
<Logan_> I hear you. I need to be a bit less eager.
<Logan_> Working on that. :P
<Logan_> I feel safe doing ppc64el FTBFS fixes because I know nobody is going to complain to me about those. :P
<infinity> Not when they work. :)
<Logan_> infinity: Of course I uploaded it with "Merge" as the changelog entry. I forgot to debuild again after writing a proper changelog entry. :P
<Logan_> I rectified my mistake by doing a no-change rebuild with a proper retroactive changelog entry.
<infinity> Logan_: You could have hidden your tracks a bit better by removing the ubuntu1 changelog entry when you did ubuntu2.  Too late now, though. ;)
<Logan_> infinity: I'm preserving history! Also, I have a quick question. If I touch a file in configure-stamp, do I explicitly have to rm it in clean?
<Logan_> Because I need to touch ./AUTHORS for autoreconf to work for a package that is FTBFSing on ppc64el.
<infinity> Logan_: If you touch a file that some other clean thing (make clean, dh_clean, etc) doesn't clean then, yes, you need to clean it yourself.
<Logan_> Okay, thanks.
<maxiaojun> software center of trusty still shows removed package
<maxiaojun> anyone to update app-install-data?
<maxiaojun> examples include pptview and chmsee
<maxiaojun> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/g2ipmsg/+bug/1264801
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 1264801 in g2ipmsg (Ubuntu) "Error on Startup" [Undecided,New]
<maxiaojun> I guess g2ipmsg should probably be removed or hid from software center.
<maxiaojun> why there is 6 entries for Marble in USC?
<maxiaojun> gpixpod seems to be negative value package
<cjwatson> LoganCloud: AUTOMAKE='automake --foreign' might have done the job rather than touching AUTHORS
<infinity> (.text+0x194): undefined reference to `ucnv_getMaxCharSize_48'
<infinity> cjwatson: Ugh.  Looks like haskell's gone and made the icu transition more painful.
<infinity> cjwatson: (Some lower level bits need to be rebuilt again and bubble up sanity, I'm guessing?)
<xnox> LoganCloud: infinity: instead of touching random empty files to please automake, it's better to add [foreign] to the AM_AUTOMAKE_INIT in the configure.ac/in as that makes automake not care about required files for GNU project.
<xnox> LoganCloud: infinity: and no, i don't care much about mediatomb =))))
<xnox> infinity: i've uploaded haskell-text-icu rebuild, which appears to be the lowest icu based component. and indeed, it changed the magic provides number. So things that rdep from level8 upwords on icu need rebuild =/
<xnox> infinity: and for icu to migrate we need haskell stack installable all the way....
<infinity> xnox: Well, luckily, some of them are FTBFS, so just need a retry. :P
<xnox> =))))
<xnox> cjwatson: interesting enough: AUTOMAKE='automake -Wno-error' doesn't seem to work if the AM_AUTOMAKE_INIT has [-Werror -Wall] in configure.ac.
<xnox> but i guess you'd advacate fixing the warnings....
<infinity> php5 autopkgtest had some sort of explosion, if someone wants to retry that.
<infinity> I really should sort out access...
<cjwatson> infinity: Random rebuilds aside, http://lists.debian.org/debian-haskell/2013/12/msg00016.html is a recent assessment of the current set of problems with the Haskell stack
<cjwatson> infinity: I've been going around chasing rebuilds as time permits, but it's not going to get all the way right now
<cjwatson> Also something odd up with haskell-http-client, which might be Ubuntu-specific, haven't had a chance to chase it yet
<cjwatson> ... and haskell-http-conduit
<cjwatson> xnox: yes, I would :)
<cjwatson> shouldn't be that hard
<infinity> cjwatson: The thing up with conduit is what I was referring to.
<infinity> cjwatson: I assume xnox's drilling back down the haskell/icu stack and then back up should fix it.
<cjwatson> maybe, but I got a very recent failure for that
<infinity> Yeah, the recent failure was what I was looking at.
<infinity> But it seems to clearly reference icu48 symbols, which implies something lower down needs to transition first.
<cjwatson> Anyhow, the whole Haskell stack is going to have to be working at once, probably
<xnox> cjwatson: re:adjunctions-dev there is a one line patch + version compat bump in the representable-functors github repo. I was thinking to try cherrypicking that into current adjunctions to unblock the stack.
<cjwatson> xnox: it'll need a bit more than a one-liner, but maybe.  link?  if it does the job I can push it to Debian
<xnox> then again i'm haskell clueless.
<xnox> cjwatson: https://github.com/ekmett/representable-functors/pull/2/files
<xnox> unless that depends on other changes done in the representable-functors repo......
<cjwatson> well, while that might help representable-functors, it won't apply as such to adjunctions
<cjwatson> and adjunctions needs to be fixed first
<xnox> *bummer*
<cjwatson> I already tried just forcing it to build ignoring various version problems
<cjwatson> src/Data/Functor/Contravariant/Adjunction.hs:10:8:
<cjwatson>     Could not find module `Data.Functor.Corepresentable'
<cjwatson>     Perhaps you meant
<cjwatson>       Data.Functor.Representable (from representable-functors-3.2.0.2)
<cjwatson>     Use -v to see a list of the files searched for.
<cjwatson> oh, hey, the most current upstream of adjunctions actually works if I cherry-pick the version patches
<cjwatson> xnox: leave this with me, I *might* be able to get it sorted out today.  I'll need to check that representable-tries and algebra still work
<cjwatson> however, pandoc/gitit is still a problem
<xnox> cjwatson: i'll be doing icu rebuilds to get the stack as installable as it was before I uploaded icu =/
<cjwatson> I already started :)
<xnox> ok then =)
 * xnox sacrifices bird seeds to haskell gurus
<cjwatson> Grr, I can't upload this to Debian because of uninstallability in unstable
<Logan_> cjwatson, xbox: Gotcha, thanks.
<Logan_> *xnox, ugh.
<xnox> Logan_: hm? sup =)
<Logan_> <xnox> LoganCloud: infinity: instead of touching random empty files to please automake, it's better to add [foreign] to the AM_AUTOMAKE_INIT in the configure.ac/in as that makes automake not care about required files for GNU project.
<xnox> ah. k =)
<xnox> Logan_: yeah, i'm not sure why GNU coding standard is enforced by default by such a general purpose tool =/
<Logan_> It's rather silly.
<xnox> instead of requiring GNU projects to use "GNU"  keyword.
<cjwatson> xnox: Fixed haskell-adjunctions in Debian now, so I think it's mostly just pandoc and gitit left now
<cjwatson> (Which unfortunately are non-trivial)
#ubuntu-devel 2014-12-22
<hhorvath> cjwatson & others: could debootstrap work with a stricter chroot like http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grsecurity#Chroot_restrictions ?
<hhorvath> cjwatson & others: I have modified /usr/share/debootstrap/functions to mount stuff normally (meaning not "chroot mount" but "mount  ... $TARGET ...") , now it gets to unpack packages, before that it simply failed running "in_target mount -t proc /proc".
<hhorvath> cjwatson & others: however, now it fails unpacking packages (which is not due to my changes), could it be that a double chroot is atempted by any of the packages that is being installed or could any package try to mount stuff outside the jail?
<xnox> hhorvath: why do you want a stricter chroot inside debootstrap?
<hhorvath> xnox: do you know the grsecurity linux kernel patch? assuming that is on the host system
<hhorvath> xnox: i do not want that specifically for debootstrap, obviously it breaks things there. I wanted to know if it's possible in theory for debootstrap to operate under such conditiions
<xnox> hhorvath: usually one secures things above debootstrap - e.g. run debootstrap in a VM, or lxc container. but it is not designed for arbitrary code execution..
<hhorvath> xnox: I think you misunderstand me
<xnox> hhorvath: debootstrap creates a chroot and packages are install and executing their postinst as root. Hence it's not that strict, and shouldn't be, given that one trusts and checks the archive signatures / packages one installs.
<hhorvath> xnox: my question is not about securing debootstrap
<hhorvath> xnox: assume I want to install ubuntu using debootstrap on my system. further assume that my system is running a patched kernel, with the stricter chroot criteria. would it be possible in theory to get debootstrap to work ?
<xnox> hhorvath: then what do you mean "could debootstrap work with a stricter chroot" - debootstrap is only a command that used to create debian chroots, it's not used for anything else.
<xnox> hhorvath: no idea, but debootstrap upstream is in Debian, not ubuntu.
<xnox> hhorvath: in general it is kept very portable with minimal dependencies and can run on a wide variety of *NIX like systems.
<hhorvath> xnox: yeah i'have seen that in the source
<hhorvath> xnox: grsec kernels restrict the chroot, so that inside the jail, you can't mount stuff from outside, and inside you can't chroot again
<xnox> hhorvath: debootstrap itself will probably work, however package installation will most likely fail.
<hhorvath> xnox: I have modified debootstrap to mount before chrooting, but package unpacking fails for some reason (only on a grsec kernel, on a normal kernel, my modified version still works without problems)
<cjwatson> hhorvath: Please don't highlight me about this; I'm not going to have time to look at things until after the holidays and in any case I don't really work on this stuff any more.
<hhorvath> okay, sorry, thanks for your replies anyway
<xnox> hhorvath: .... and you expect me to fix the bootstrap you broke? =) maybe you should debug it and/or report it to upstream.
<hhorvath> no, I did not break anything. I was asking a theoretical quesiton, I never assumed you would fix it for me. I was more asking if under the conditions I have listed, debootstraping can even work in theory.
<hhorvath> the fixing would be my part.
<hhorvath> but I do not know the internals structures well enough to answer my question myself. maybe some packages need chroot for configuration? then it would be impossible to fix it
<hhorvath> xnox: the exact question would be "inside chroot, does deboostrapping need another chroot?"
<xnox> hhorvath: you can trivally read debootstrap source code, or inspect it imperically with strace.
<xnox> hhorvath: as that's how people would approach to find out if a given syscall is required by a given process.
#ubuntu-devel 2014-12-23
<Logan_> could someone please look into why lyricue isn't migrating?
<Logan_> I checked update_output.txt, and it seems to imply that it is breaking itself on arm64, which makes no sense whatsoever
<tumbleweed> Logan_: well, it isn't installable on arm64
<tumbleweed> and never existed on arm64, before
<Logan_> oh, really?
<Logan_> I know the latter - I fixed the FTBFS on arm64
<tumbleweed> it Depends on unoconv which Depends on python3-uno which isn't available on arm64
<Logan_> ah
<tumbleweed> forcing the migration is probably the best thing to do here
<Logan_> also, reportbug decided to stop working with Gmail
<Logan_> and that makes me sad
<tumbleweed> is there a bug?
<Logan_> trying to figure out why it is
<Logan_> can you repro?
<Logan_> that would be awesome if you could test
 * tumbleweed has real e-mail :)
<Logan_> pfft
<Logan_> just try setting your smtphost to smtp.gmail.com?
<Logan_> it fails at the HELO, so you can use some bogus username
<tumbleweed> doesn't fail at HELO for me. You using port 587?
<Logan_> are you just telnetting?
<tumbleweed> yes
<Logan_> yes, that works for me too
<Logan_> but there's something up in reportbug
<Logan_> lemme try explicitly doing :587 in the smtphost
<Logan_> although I never had that in the past...
<Logan_> I already have the smtptls option enabled, which should implicitly do port 587 (I would think)
<Logan_> ffs, it needed the explicit port :P
<Logan_> I blame Python 2.7.9 or something
<tumbleweed> Logan_: lyricue has migrated
<Logan_> sweet, thanks :)
<Bluefoxicy> should I file a bug on chromium for the omnibox calculator not working?  Or is that removed by design?
<Bluefoxicy> it's f*@# annoying
<dhooligan> Hey I'm interested in contributing to Ubuntu and I'm trying to do Ubuntu Papercuts right now. Would this be a channel that I can get help? The IRC for Papercuts is pretty dead
<cjwatson> dhooligan: As general advice, I suspect people will be reasonably happy here to either help or redirect you somewhere appropriate, although the best strategy is to ask questions directly.
<ktechmidas> Hi All, Debian have disabled NRPE arguments from compilation from Jessie onwards. I was wondering if this will filter down to Ubuntu?
#ubuntu-devel 2014-12-24
<bluesabre> ochosi: since your activity slowed down on Greybird, I went ahead and uploaded your latest fixes, should be available later this evening/morning
<Logan_> doko: can we sync over your changes for gnat-gps, given that gdb apparently doesn't work with it?
<ari-tczew> Can someone sync clutter? It's blocking further upgrading to gnome 3.14 series. bug 1404229
<ubottu> bug 1404229 in clutter-1.0 (Ubuntu) "Sync clutter-1.0 1.20.0-1 (main) from Debian unstable (main)" [Wishlist,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1404229
<xnox> ari-tczew: syncing clutter alone will not help, as mutter will need a merge as well no?
<ari-tczew> xnox: yes, but first clutter needs to be synced
<ari-tczew> mutter 3.14, d/control, B-D:                libclutter-1.0-dev (>= 1.19.5),
<xnox> ari-tczew:   * libclutter-1.0-0: add breaks against mutter version older then 3.14
<xnox>     - "the symbol was marked as experimental, and also used only by mutter"
<ari-tczew> xnox: ok, so what's your point?
<xnox> ari-tczew: my point is that the world will be stuck in proposed now, and unless mutter is merged soon after, clutter will be kicked out of proposed again to unblock things that will start piling up now.
<xnox> we've been there before....
<xnox> syncpackage: Request succeeded; you should get an e-mail once it is processed. however lp page does not reflect that yet
<ari-tczew> xnox: there is a merge of mutter ready to be sponsored on bug 1399047
<ubottu> bug 1399047 in gnome-themes-standard (Ubuntu) "Update gnome core packages to 3.14" [Wishlist,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1399047
<ari-tczew> xnox: I found something looks like clutter has been synced already in October
<ari-tczew> https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/vivid/+queue?queue_state=3&queue_text=clutter-1.0
<xnox> ari-tczew: Deleted on 2014-10-29 by Adam Conrad
<xnox> New clutter breaks old mutter, and need a new GTK+ to make it all work
<ari-tczew> ok
<xnox> ari-tczew: correct you are jumping the ship with clutter here, as per Noskcaj's bug report themes, adwaita, etc from his bug report need to go in first, before mutter.
 * xnox "ship?!"... "gun"
<ari-tczew> xnox: sync of clutter 1.20 is also included there, or isn't?
 * ari-tczew is being confused
<xnox> ari-tczew: as last, not first.
<ari-tczew> xnox: ok, if I'll sponsor merge of mutter for Noskcaj, it will be blocked as waiting build-dep, no?
<xnox> ari-tczew: .... read the bug report, new themes need to go in first, and adwaita needs M.I.R., only then can mutter go in, and later clutter.
<ari-tczew> xnox: ok
<Noskcaj> xnox, I can't check to due internet limitations until later this month, but i think all adwaita deps have an alternate on gnome-icon-theme currently. Everything is ready to go
<Noskcaj> geoclue stuff is already MIRed, just awaiting the uploads.
#ubuntu-devel 2014-12-25
<Logan_> xnox: can you please sync or merge guayadeque? you're the TIL, and it's blocking a transition ;)
<sahildcoder> hello
<ari-tczew> hello sahildcoder
<sahildcoder> i am new to open source community
<ari-tczew> welcome
<sahildcoder> so if you could guide me how to contribute to open source society
<ari-tczew> there is small introduction, I think you should like it: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/Contributing
<ari-tczew> MOTUs have to do mostly with merging, syncs, FTBFS fixing
<sahildcoder> okay
#ubuntu-devel 2014-12-26
<Laney> Riddell: I don't see libxext in the utopic queue
<Laney> actually, I do, in rejected :(
<Riddell> Laney: hmm
<Riddell> any comment?
<Laney> only goes to the uploader, afaik
<xperia> hi all. i would like to build the newest ubuntu-desktop for a ARM Cortex A9 SoC. Can anybody give me a link to a working tutorial how this can be build ?
<smaudet> Hi, who would I contact about the cnjifilter-common package, and specifically where they are obtaining their binary blobs? I'm trying to enable my canon mx472, I've gone through and manually compiled most everything myself, I believe I need some binary blobs from the manufacturer though and I'm curious to know where you obtained them.
<smaudet> https://code.launchpad.net/~michael-gruz/+recipe/cnijfilter-common-daily is the repository I believe (or at least it is related)
<smaudet> if this isn't the place to ask I apologize
<smaudet> bit difficult finding the thing in the first place
<Whoopie> Hi, any reason why the linux-lts-utopic-tools-common package is empty? I hoped to find the same "binaries" for usbip and usbipd in there.
<smaudet> These are the files I'm referring to: http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~michael-gruz/+junk/cnijfilter-common/files/head:/421/libs_bin64/
#ubuntu-devel 2014-12-27
<kalxas> hi all, is launchpad working?
<kalxas> I asked in #ubuntu-packaging too, no answer
<kalxas> I uploaded a package to my ppa and after 30 mins I did not get confirmation of the upload
<mitya57> the correct channel for that is probably #launchpad
<mitya57> (I am not aware of any problems with PPAs)
<kalxas> thanks mitya57
<aryo> helo, when a package has debconf, how to handle it with Qt?
<cojack> yo guys
<cojack> simple question, why you just stop provide an ogre-sample package?
<cojack> wrong channel
#ubuntu-devel 2014-12-28
<al_exquemelin> I was wondering how to get my code from a bzr branch into a .tar.gz archive? and do I really need the latter to build a PPA package?
<al_exquemelin> I've looked through the Ubuntu Packaging guide but still don't quite get it
<hjd> al_exquemelin: The launchpad PPA builders can build packages directly from a bzr branch (assuming it is set up for packaging with a debian directory etc).
<hjd> If you wish to build it yourself, bzr-builddeb should work (I think it maybe generates the .tar.gz behind the scenes, but it too only needs the branch in order to work)
<al_exquemelin> hjd: didn't add the /debian directory as yet, it seems I'll have to investigate the description for it
<al_exquemelin> hjd: but where do I start with building my PPA packages? writing a recipe first?
<hjd> The packaging guide contains a quick overview of the debian/ directory http://packaging.ubuntu.com/html/debian-dir-overview.html
<al_exquemelin> hjd: yes, I've seen it, thanks
<hjd> Depends what you have done so far. Presumably you have some bzr branch with a piece of software? I don't know how the packaging guide is structured, but I think a natural first step would be to make it possible to build package(s) from it locally and then do that first.
<hjd> The PPA recipe will list the branch (or branches more of you wish to combine) you need in order to build a package, but will require that the branch is actually able to produce a package.
<hjd> :)
<hjd> Does that make sense?
<al_exquemelin> hjd: yes, I guess I'll start with filling up the /debian directory
#ubuntu-devel 2015-12-21
<dholbach> good morning
 * didrocks hugs dholbach
 * dholbach hugs didrocks back :)
<Mirv> doko is the hero of build times with the recent pkgbinarymangler parallelizations!
<Mirv> PNG:s and dh_builddeb, that is
<LocutusOfBorg1> hi Laney sil2100 sarnold tyhicks Adri2000 cjwatson bdrung and many others (sorry for the highlight), you have sponsored a lot of stuff for me in the past (thanks for that), and I opened a MOTU application for today's meeting, so I would really appreciate an endorsment if possible (or to know what I did wrong when I submitted something to you for review :p) https://wiki.ubuntu.com/GianfrancoCostamagna/MOTUApplication
<LocutusOfBorg1> there are many more but I don't want to spam too much :)
<sil2100> LocutusOfBorg1: hey! Of course, let me take a look if I can endorse you - but remember, my voice won't be too important as I'm a freshman core-dev anyway ;)
<LocutusOfBorg1> it might not be important for others, but I'm asking this mainly for me, not for the MOTU application itself
<LocutusOfBorg1> I find more important to find where I have been wrong, not where I have been successful
<darkxst> LocutusOfBorg1, don't think I ever sponsored anything of yours, but you are meant to have the endorsements done way before the meeting!
<darkxst> well atleast a week before, so the DMB can review before the meeting
<LocutusOfBorg1> I hope it is fine, the other endorsments were 10 days old
<darkxst> LocutusOfBorg1, they seem a little thin on details, even I know you have done way more than that
<LocutusOfBorg1> micahg, hi, sorry for writing there, but I guess the ping should be against cyphermox_ and xnox_2016 ? :)
<micahg> LocutusOfBorg1: xnox mentioned he won't be joining us today
<LocutusOfBorg1> oh I din't see that, thanks
<micahg> (was a private message)
<teward> it's not atypical for `debuild -S` when it creates a tarball of the source code directory for it to strip out .git/* is it?
<oSoMoN> slangasek, Iâm looking at bug #1527741, trying to figure out the issue, and it seems to me it could be a gcc5 bug, but doko is not around, anyone else familiar with gcc who could help?
<ubottu> bug 1527741 in oxide-qt (Ubuntu) "oxide-qt 1.11.3-0ubuntu2 FTBFS on armhf due to compiler segfault" [Critical,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1527741
<cjwatson> teward: That's normal if you use -i -I (which you should), perhaps via ~/.devscripts
<Saviq> guys, is http://autopkgtest.ubuntu.com/running.shtml stuck? I haven't seen it change for a few hours now... and http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-archive/proposed-migration/update_excuses.html#qtmir seems to be waiting on those runs
<Saviq> now it got a new entry for checkbox, but qtmir/qtmir-gles last log lines are from 4h ago
<teward> cjwatson: that explains the issues i'm seeing with makefile and "Error: Not a git repository" when extracting version tags with git :/
<teward> cjwatson: any way to force it *not* to temporarily?
<teward> (though, no idea what the sbuild env is using)
<teward> cjwatson: any idea if how to override that for one or two individual builds?
<teward> (the -i -I stuff, given that the debian/rules file depends on the git tags for version ID)
<Saviq> slangasek, hey, any idea what's happened here http://autopkgtest.ubuntu.com/running.shtml#pkg-qtmir ? the qtmir, qtmir-gles, unity8 jobs seem to be stuck for 4h+ now
<mterry> @pilot in
* udevbot changed the topic of #ubuntu-devel to: Wily (15.10) Released! | Archive: open | Devel of Ubuntu (not support or app devel) | build failures: http://qa.ubuntuwire.com/ftbfs/ | #ubuntu for support and discussion of precise-wily | #ubuntu-app-devel for app development on Ubuntu http://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopment | See #ubuntu-bugs for http://bit.ly/lv8soi | Patch Pilots: mterry
<akronix> hi!
<akronix> what about adding a notifications center / notifications dashboard as gnome-shell or Android has??
<cjwatson> teward: I expect you have it in ~/.devscripts; you can remove it ...
<cjwatson> teward: though personally, I'd fix the package to use some other version id mechanism - it doesn't feel like very good design
<teward> cjwatson: that's what I told them
<teward> guess what, i was overruled :/
<teward> and AFAICT i don't have it in ~/.devscripts
<teward> so not sure where to look next :/
<teward> unless debuild or sbuild have it built into their code at a more overruling level than ~/.devscripts
<cjwatson> teward: you said you were using "debuild -S".  why would sbuild be involved?
<teward> cjwatson: because i also used sbuild to test to see if it was internal
<teward> and it was too
<teward> regardless of which, .git is stripped out
<cjwatson> also, who gets to overrule you if you're the source package maintainer?
<teward> cjwatson: in-house
<teward> developer who writes it vs. sysadmin
<teward> i'm going to try and talk otherwise now
<teward> since i'm tired of 'trying' to make their weirdness work
<cjwatson> teward: I'm sorry, I'm reasonably sure there are no relevant defaults here but I might misremember, you are going to have to debug this yourself.
<cjwatson> you might see if it's actually in the .orig.tar.gz.
<tarpman> ISTR 3.0 (quilt) has some of the -i/-I behaviours enabled by default?
<cjwatson> (assuming it's non-native)
<teward> cjwatson: yeah, that's what my thought is, though i'd rather find a way that would rely on the Debian changelog or some other version file :/
 * teward yawns
<teward> i've been beating my head on this thing for... what, a week... maybe i need a break L.
<teward> :/  *
<mterry> Laney, do you know if mono on s390x close to working?
<mterry> *is
<Saviq> Laney, cjwatson, do you have powers over autopkgtests http://autopkgtest.ubuntu.com/running.shtml#pkg-qtmir ?
<Saviq> the qtmir, qtmir-gles, unity8 ones seem stuck for 6h+ now
<mterry> @pilot out
* udevbot changed the topic of #ubuntu-devel to: Wily (15.10) Released! | Archive: open | Devel of Ubuntu (not support or app devel) | build failures: http://qa.ubuntuwire.com/ftbfs/ | #ubuntu for support and discussion of precise-wily | #ubuntu-app-devel for app development on Ubuntu http://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopment | See #ubuntu-bugs for http://bit.ly/lv8soi | Patch Pilots:
<Noskcaj> mterry, Any idea where the apport issue with xfce4-terminal could be coming from. I'm not really sure what change could affect apport
<Noskcaj> and with blueman do i just wait for a fix or do i make it skip s390x?
<hallyn> stgraber: do you know where adt-build-lxc keeps its images offhand?
<stgraber> hallyn: nope
<hallyn> kthx
<hallyn> oh, oh, it uses ephemeral, silly me
<cjwatson> Saviq: I do not
<Noskcaj> Are there any pans to finish the libjpeg-turbo transition this cycle?
<sarnold> LocutusOfBorg1: thanks, I've added my bit, I hope quickly enough :)
#ubuntu-devel 2015-12-22
<psusi> cjwatson, poke ;)
<Logan> xnox_2016: are you planning to merge sphinxsearch?
<Logan> also, I think you're a little early on that nick ;)
<dholbach> good morning
<LocutusOfBorg1> sarnold, there was no vote, so your endorsment should be valid (and *a lot* appreciated, thanks!)
<Saviq> didrocks, hey, do you have powers over autopkgtest runs?
<Saviq> (according to pitti you do)
<didrocks> Saviq: I think so, I never really retry running
<didrocks> Saviq: what do you want to retry and what was the trigger?
<didrocks> (it's shown on the interface)
<Saviq> didrocks, http://autopkgtest.ubuntu.com/running.shtml#pkg-qtmir
<Saviq> didrocks, qtmir, qtmir-gles and unity8 armhf ones are stuck since yesterday
<Saviq> didrocks, actually looks like the s390x for unity8 (whaaa? since when is unity8 available on this arch?) is stuck, too
<didrocks> Saviq: ah, they are stuck, not a rerun then
<didrocks> Saviq: let me check if I can kill a run, I'm unsure
<Saviq> didrocks, thanks
<didrocks> Saviq: doesn't seem there is anything to kill running worker https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ProposedMigration/AutopkgtestInfrastructure#Administration
<Saviq> :/
<Saviq> January it is, then :
<didrocks> I guess so, sorry :(
<dasjoe> sarnold: I'm not sure who to poke about this, can you try to get a recent grub2 into xenial? Specificially including tsoome's patches re: ZFS
<LocutusOfBorg1> hi, folks, anybody has an opinion about a jquery MIR?
<LocutusOfBorg1> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/jquery/+bug/1513536
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1513536 in jquery (Ubuntu) "please merge jquery from Debian" [Undecided,New]
<LocutusOfBorg1> it is needed to fix some issues, e.g. libjs-jquery-scrollto ad sigil
<cjwatson> dasjoe: please file a bug with the details and I can cherry-pick them into Debian
<dasjoe> cjwatson: right, I'll try to find all relevant commits. Should I file a bug at LP or bugs.debian.org?
<cyphermox> good morning!
<cjwatson> dasjoe: either is OK but bugs.debian.org would be slightly preferable
<cjwatson> cyphermox: did you get anywhere with your attempt to fix the grub2 build on arm64, BTW?
<cyphermox> cjwatson: no
<cjwatson> cyphermox: what did you try so far?
<cyphermox> I only tried the SuSE/rh patch to remove the eh_frame section
<cjwatson> cyphermox: ok, I'll have a go at some point over Christmas then
<dasjoe> cjwatson: thanks, I'll do so
<cyphermox> sorry, the rest is black magic to me :/
<cjwatson> me too a bit, but maybe I can work something out
<cyphermox> I was planning on asking dannf if he has an idea
<dasjoe> cjwatson: sorry to bug you again, I have no idea what I'm doing. https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=706415 is related and can be fixed by applying all commits from 2015-05-03 on, from these trees: http://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/grub.git/log/include/grub/zfs and http://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/grub.git/log/grub-core/fs/zfs
<ubottu> Debian bug 706415 in grub-pc "grub-pc: grub-probe fails to find / on a ZFS-on-Linux system" [Normal,Open]
<mterry> @pilot in
* udevbot changed the topic of #ubuntu-devel to: Wily (15.10) Released! | Archive: open | Devel of Ubuntu (not support or app devel) | build failures: http://qa.ubuntuwire.com/ftbfs/ | #ubuntu for support and discussion of precise-wily | #ubuntu-app-devel for app development on Ubuntu http://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopment | See #ubuntu-bugs for http://bit.ly/lv8soi | Patch Pilots: mterry
<cjwatson> dasjoe: ok, can you email the necessary details to 706415@bugs.debian.org please?  I won't be able to deal with it today
 * dholbach hugs mterry
<mterry> dholbach, :)
<dholbach> :-)
#ubuntu-devel 2015-12-23
<cyphermox> LocutusOfBorg1: hey, I think the "initial" state of bug 1513536 was correct in being a merge bug for jquery
<ubottu> bug 1513536 in jquery (Ubuntu) "[MIR] nodejs?" [Undecided,Incomplete] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1513536
<cyphermox> if you want to do the merge, you should let doko know, but I don't think he'd mind :)
<sarnold> dasjoe: probably a bug report against grub2 https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/grub2  would be best; during the next two weeks there's not going to be many people around
<sarnold> dasjoe: on a first guess, probably slangasek, xnox, infinity, or cyphermox would be 'best' for grub2 updates,
<LocutusOfBorg1> cyphermox, how can I merge something in main that depends from stuff in universe?
<LocutusOfBorg1> the merge will fail I guess
 * LocutusOfBorg1 sometimes feels like he is missing something
<geser> LocutusOfBorg1: check if the other stuff can move to main and file a MainInclusionReport (the alternative is to check if you can drop the other stuff easily)
<lamont> wily install and do-release-upgrade -d to xenial, last thing it prints in the rootfs fsck... I suspect there's a missing package, maybe?
<dasjoe> cjwatson: I sent some info to the Debian bug, let me know if I can do anything else
<hallyn> slangasek: hey, if you're around, i have a q about pam-auth-update
<hallyn> specifically, https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=806841  correctly points out that files under /usr shouldn't be updated.
<ubottu> Debian bug 806841 in cgmanager "Lame suggestion in README.Debian" [Normal,Open]
<hallyn> So is there any clean way to ask users to update the shipped defaults?  There is no /etc copy of the /usr/share/pam-configs/ files right?
<hallyn> So I need to just ask them to update /etc/pam.d/common-session directly?
<cjwatson> dasjoe: that's fine, thanks
<cjwatson> sarnold: it's OK, I'll handle it (time permitting)
<lamont> cyphermox: around?
<cyphermox> lamont: yes
<cyphermox> what's up?
<lamont> sorry -meeting
<lamont> cyphermox: amusing note: current xenial netinst produces a machine that boots to a point where it goes idle, and never produces a prompt
<lamont> starting with trust or wily netinst and immediately do-release-upgrade to xenial, same issue
<lamont> server install, of course, works just fine
<lamont> where should I file the ubg?
<lamont> bug
<cyphermox> I don't know
<cyphermox> if you get it after an upgrade too it seems likely that it would be my d-i merges that broke this
<cyphermox> especially since I have yet to merge console-setup and kbd.
<cyphermox> lamont: could you file it against systemd, and assign it to me? I'll try to reproduce it here and dig in
<cyphermox> lamont: was that on a specific architecture?
<lamont> cyphermox: amd64 vm
<lamont> I'll even toss in the config
<cyphermox> oh, cool
<cyphermox> I already have an amd64 vm installing right now from netboot.
<lamont> yeah - boring install... flat out booooooring
<lamont> and then after it fails, losetup -f -o 1048576 $DISKDEVICE and presto, you have a filesystem you can scrounge around in with /var/log/syslog and everything
<cyphermox> hm
<cyphermox> I did just get a prompt with an install where I basically just hit enter a couple gazillion times
 * lamont will include his tftp/etc
<cyphermox> ok
<lamont> once I get back into the machine :(
<cyphermox> oh
<lamont> in a separate issue, sda died on the box where all this is happening
<cyphermox> I wonder if that might be an issue with the recent plymouth merge
<cyphermox> ah, got it
<cyphermox> lamont: if you get in grub, edit the command line to remove $vt_handoff
<cyphermox> (that may be doing things wrong, but it should get you a prompt until I make more sense of it all)
<lamont> cyphermox: I "just" did my one-off install that I needed, via a server iso.
<cyphermox> ok
<lamont> I think my system would boot better if there were kernels in /boot :(
<lamont> OTOH, lunch was good.
<cyphermox> lamont: did you file that bug report?
<lamont> cyphermox: not quite yet.  give me about 5 min and I'll be all over it... doing a little bit of headscratching on a different issue
<lamont> cyphermox: would pxelinux.0 differnces explain it? (as in using trusty's pxelinux.0 to boot xenial?)
<cyphermox> lamont: I don't believe so
<lamont> heh.
<lamont> actually, I have this: -rw-r--r-- 1 root root 26461 Apr 23  2012 pxelinux.0
<cyphermox> I used a very recent mini.iso I built myself from our d-i branch to test console-setup
<lamont> so make that a precise pxelinux.0
<cyphermox> plus what you're booting in the end should be the right-ish kernel for the release
<cyphermox> I think this is something that got changed in the kernel or in plymouth, related to the vt handoff, but I'd need to look harder at that
<cyphermox> (so if you haven't filed the bug, perhaps make it against plymouth)
<lamont> ah, I'm about "this close" and don't want to star tover...
<lamont> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/systemd/+bug/1528956 <-- cyphermox - I'll let you reassign, if that's ok
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1528956 in systemd (Ubuntu) "netinst produces an unusable system" [Undecided,New]
<lamont> cyphermox: the fact that the server iso install works, leads  me to suspect that it's deps or something ?
#ubuntu-devel 2015-12-25
<teward> in the installers on the ISOs, what process/program/etc is tasked with commenting out CDROM lines in the sources.list, if there is one?
<teward> (there's an issue with the daily ISO that i'm running into)
#ubuntu-devel 2015-12-26
<dupingping> hi, all
<mitya57> Can someone please reject my libsignon-glib sync from binNEW (and maybe remove it from -proposed if possible)? We don't need the -dbg package in Ubuntu and I didn't intend to add new binaries without asking the current Ubuntu maintainer first.
<mitya57> Err, s/libsignon-glib/libaccounts-glib/, the former is Ok
<mitya57> (I will do a new upload based on current Ubuntu packaging to fix what I need, namely the s390x ftbfs.)
<mitya57> Or, maybe, if mardy_ is online and says the sync is ok, accept it instead of rejecting :)
<hjd> Hi all, could someone please rebuild r-bioc-genomicfeatures in Xenial? :) Looks like it failed to build because the required version of one of the dependencies hadn't been synced yet. Built without problems on my local Xenial vm.
<szymon_g> hi
<szymon_g> which version of python will be in the upcoming edition of ubuntu (which will be lts, won't it?)?
<szymon_g> i.e. the one available in standard repositories, out of the box so to speak
<hjd> Any suggestions what it means when a build failed without a log? (https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/django-oauth-toolkit/0.10.0-1/+build/8760721)
<hjd> Worked fine locally though, so will probably work if someone could trigger a rebuild of it.
<mitya57> re my message above: nevermind, I resolved that myself
<mitya57> hjd, retried both
<mitya57> szymon_g, it will be 3.5
<szymon_g> oh, thanks mitya57
<hjd> mitya57: ty :)
<cjwatson> hjd: When a build fails without a log, it means that LP was unable to retrieve the log from the builder at the end of the build, probably because the builder crashed.
<hjd> cjwatson: I see. Has there been any particular issues like this recently? I've seen a couple of such failures.
<hjd> For instance https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/r-bioc-biovizbase/1.18.0-1/+build/8272916 and https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/globus-xio-udt-driver/1.19-2/+build/8760547, where at least in the former case it built successfully on all other arches.
<cjwatson> hjd: It happens now and again.  Not worth spending lots of time investigating unless it's pervasive, really.
<cjwatson> hjd: Certainly not while LP staff are on vacation :)
<hjd> cjwatson: Ok, sure. Just can't remember seeing it before and now I found three cases in a day.
<cjwatson> hjd: You wouldn't notice it unless nobody has retried it already, so the chances of noticing it during a holiday are higher.
<ari-tczew> is there something wrong with builders? I noticed some packages are waiting like never ending story
<teward> ari-tczew: waiting to build, or waiting to migrate from proposed?
<teward> ooo PPA builders are showing a ton as disabled...
<teward> (but the actual repo builders seem OK according to the LP build farm page)
<ari-tczew> teward: waiting to build
<ari-tczew> exactly, packages on the PPA are stucked
<ari-tczew> cjwatson: any news about that issue? ^^
<cjwatson> ari-tczew: looks like they weretaken out by a brief swift outage earlier.  I've reset a handful to keep things moving, but I'm not at home right now and it's cumbersome from my phone.  will sort somemore later
<ari-tczew> cjwatson: ok, thanks for your attention
<ari-tczew> sbuild-build-depends-core-dummy : Depends: build-essential but it is not going to be installed
<ari-tczew> on the xenial-proposed builders ???
<cjwatson> ari-tczew: an example build would be most helpful
<ari-tczew> cjwatson: https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/capnproto/0.5.3-2ubuntu1
<cjwatson> hm, I see a lot of recent failures but some successes oto
<cjwatson> *too
<ari-tczew> cjwatson: there is also another problem with 20-40 seconds builds, e.g. https://launchpad.net/~ari-tczew/+archive/ubuntu/testing/+build/8762787
<ari-tczew> no buildlog, just ftbfs
<cjwatson> oh, broken on everything that's not amd64
<ari-tczew> cjwatson: build-essential problem on ppa, e.g.: https://launchpadlibrarian.net/231986500/buildlog_ubuntu-xenial-i386.xenomai_2.6.4%2Bdfsg-0.1~ppa01_BUILDING.txt.gz
<cjwatson> ah, it's because the perl build crashed on amd64
<cjwatson> I've retried https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/perl/5.22.1-3/+build/8762672, should clear things up once it lands
<cjwatson> in the absence of that build-essential is uninstallable
<cjwatson> ari-tczew: builds without a buildlog are normally because the builder has crashed, but this case (and probably a lot of the other recent ones, actually) is because the swift instance that backs the LP librarian has been very flaky recently.  hard to work out what that might be when we only have skeleton sysadmin coverage
<cjwatson> ari-tczew: it's fine to just retry those, I've done that for you in the case you gave
<cjwatson> perl normally takes under an hour to build on amd64, so hopefully we'll be out of the woods in about an hour and a half
<ari-tczew> cjwatson: thank you for the investigation, it's appreciated
<cjwatson> I'll do some kind of partial mass give-back once perl is sorted
<ari-tczew> not bad
#ubuntu-devel 2015-12-27
<ari-tczew> cjwatson: perl has been already built, but stuck in -proposed already. does it matter? cause my FTBFS are still alive due to missing build-essential
<cjwatson> ari-tczew: it hasn't finished publishing yet
<cjwatson> because it tried a few times and got proxy errors from the librarian ... it's on its way now though
<ari-tczew> nice
<cjwatson> ari-tczew: build-essential is happy now; retrying all failed-to-build builds from the last day
<ari-tczew> ok
<cjwatson> and the librarian madness is being worked on
<ari-tczew> cjwatson: do you need to retry every build manually or have you got a button to retry all ftbfs?
<cjwatson> ari-tczew: I have a script using the LP API
<ari-tczew> ok
<cjwatson> ari-tczew: and a much faster thing to mass-retry everything if I need it, but that has to be run on a privileged machine and I can't as easily limit it to just the last day
<ari-tczew> cjwatson: I got it. does it work to PPA as well?
<cjwatson> ari-tczew: yes
<ari-tczew> cool
<cjwatson> at least anything that isn't private such that I can't see it
<cjwatson> it's very very stupid, it just walks through getBuildRecords for every builder :-)
<cjwatson> I've been meaning to add a global getBuildRecords to the builders collection, but haven't got round to it
<ari-tczew> building monster
<dx> hi! last week i mentioned a gstreamer-related fd leak bug in pidgin for which i needed a SRU in wily. the user who tested that patch reported that a very similar issue started happening but with less frequency, and, long story short, it's something that is fixed in gstreamer 1.6.2 (wily has 1.6.0)
<dx> i'm not sure when it got fixed or how, but i'm rather annoyed at the fact that due to this whole SRU thing ubuntu is avoiding bugfix only updates unless someone proves that they are critical enough :(
<dx> i want my time back
<dx> either way... do i need to continue spending time bisecting to find a minimal patch that fixes this issue, or can someone just push the whole gstreamer 1.6.2 to wily?
<dx> okay, bisect done, this needs to be SRU'd to wily's gst-plugins-base package: https://github.com/GStreamer/gst-plugins-base/commit/b33bb8527fc4f4a189baa85d4fdcff9901be4976
<ricotz> cjwatson, hello, if you are around, could you retry https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/mesa/11.0.8-1ubuntu1/+build/8760207
<cjwatson> ricotz: done
<ricotz> cjwatson, thanks!
<ari-tczew> jamespage: ping
<beyond_help> Hiya! I am interested in getting some assistance with udev rule writing and listing attributes
<beyond_help> I was directed here from the #ubuntu channel
<beyond_help> the udevinfo command is absent from Ubuntu 15.10 and seems uninstallable
<beyond_help> moreover, the udevadm command is not really giving any examples in the help
<beyond_help> I looked for FAQs online and they are over 7 years old showing older commands
<beyond_help> my question: Help
<beyond_help> Hiya! I was directed here from the #ubuntu channel. I am interested in getting assistance with udev rule writing and listing attributes. the udevinfo command seems absent and uninstantiated in Ubuntu GNOME 15.10 and seems as well uninstallable. Morevoer, the udevadm command is not really giving any examples in the man pages and the FAQs I looked for online are over 7 (almost 8) years old and showing the usage of udevinfo wh
<beyond_help> Hiya! I was directed here from the #ubuntu channel. I am interested in getting assistance with udev rule writing and listing attributes. the udevinfo command seems absent and uninstantiated in Ubuntu GNOME 15.10 and seems as well uninstallable. Morevoer, the udevadm command is not really giving any examples in the man pages and the FAQs I looked for online are over 7 (almost 8) years old and showing the usage of udevinfo wh
<ancaemanuel> https://launchpad.net/builders 29 disabled
<ancaemanuel> is not the time to dog food that maas ?
<ancaemanuel> and automatically reinstall ?
 * beyond_help Hiya! I am interested in getting assistance with udev rule writing and listing attributes. the udevinfo command seems absent and uninstantiated in Ubuntu GNOME 15.10 and seems as well uninstallable. Morevoer, the udevadm command is not really giving any examples in the man pages and the FAQs I looked for online are over 7 (almost 8) years old and showing the usage of udevinfo which again stands absent. in short: HEL
 * beyond_help Hiya! I am interested in getting assistance with udev rule writing and listing attributes. the udevinfo command seems absent and uninstantiated in Ubuntu GNOME 15.10 and seems as well uninstallable. Morevoer, the udevadm command is not really giving any examples in the man pages and the FAQs I looked for online are over 7 (almost 8) years old and showing the usage of udevinfo which again stands absent. in short: HEL
<ancaemanuel> or maybe an watchdog for severs, I think there are solutions for this.
 * beyond_help Hiya! I am interested in getting assistance with udev rule writing and listing attributes. the udevinfo command seems absent and uninstantiated in Ubuntu GNOME 15.10 and seems as well uninstallable. Morevoer, the udevadm command is not really giving any examples in the man pages and the FAQs I looked for online are over 7 (almost 8) years old and showing the usage of udevinfo which again stands absent. in short: HEL
 * beyond_help Hiya! I am interested in getting assistance with udev rule writing and listing attributes. the udevinfo command seems absent and uninstantiated in Ubuntu GNOME 15.10 and seems as well uninstallable. Morevoer, the udevadm command is not really giving any examples in the man pages and the FAQs I looked for online are over 7 (almost 8) years old and showing the usage of udevinfo which again stands absent. in short: HEL
<tsimonq2> !patience | beyond_help
<ubottu> beyond_help: Don't feel ignored and repeat your question quickly; if nobody knows your answer, nobody will answer you. While you wait, try searching https://help.ubuntu.com or http://ubuntuforums.org or http://askubuntu.com/
<beyond_help> did all that, and following other directions I was given to keep asking as new people arrive
<beyond_help> but of course I'l take your comments under advisement
 * beyond_help Hello! I am interested in getting assistance with udev rule writing and listing attributes. the udevinfo command seems absent and uninstantiated in Ubuntu GNOME 15.10 and seems as well uninstallable. Morevoer, the udevadm command is not really giving any examples in the man pages and the FAQs I looked for online are over 7 (almost 8) years old and showing the usage of udevinfo which again stands absent. in short: HE
<tsimonq2> !ops
<ubottu> Help! Channel emergency! mneptok, Hobbsee, cjwatson, mdz, lamont, Keybuk, rww, or thom!
<ikonia> beyond_help: you've been told - this is not acceptable to this channel
<ikonia> either stop or leave the channel
<ikonia> this is NOT a support channel
<beyond_help> oh
<beyond_help> I was told it was in the ubuntu room
<ikonia> no you where not
<ikonia> #ubuntu is for support - this is for the core OS development
<ikonia> please stop spamming the same thing over and over,
<beyond_help> yes I was
<beyond_help> but I will return to the right channel
<tsimonq2> ikonia: thank you :)
<ikonia> no problem, I'll remove him if he starts again in here
 * beyond_help Hello! I am interested in getting assistance with udev rule writing and listing attributes. the udevinfo command seems absent and uninstantiated in Ubuntu GNOME 15.10 and seems as well uninstallable. Morevoer, the udevadm command is not really giving any examples in the man pages and the FAQs I looked for online are over 7 (almost 8) years old and showing the usage of udevinfo which again stands absent. in short: HE
<tsimonq2> ikonia: ^
<tsimonq2> ikonia: whoops, sorry...it seems like he is gone
#ubuntu-devel 2016-12-26
<hjd> Hi, could someone please trigger a rebuild of jackson-dataformat-xml in zesty? It built succesfully for me locally. It originally failed when it was synced, but several jackson-packages were synced at the same time, so I suppose it might have built against older packages and that might have caused the failure.
<ginggs> hjd: somebody just beat me to it
<hjd> ginggs: thanks :) (also thanks to the other helpful person)
<Logan> are conflicts/replaces for library transitions truly necessary? I notice a lot of Debian maintainers skip them, and shouldn't apt handle them automatically?
<jbicha> I think breaks/replaces are probably adequate
<jbicha> usually, they shouldn't be needed
<jbicha> I know we use the replaces for gjs though
<jbicha> gnome-shell is built with gjs so maybe there's bad things that happen there without the breaks/replaces
#ubuntu-devel 2016-12-28
<flixr> hi, would be great if someone could sync dpkg in yakkety and zesty to >= 1.10.11
<flixr> meant >= 1.18.11
<flixr> dpkg 1.18.10 has some bugs that are already fixed in Debian upstream that e.g. prevent building some packages on launchpad
<rbasak> flixr: dpkg has a delta. Just blindly syncing it would be wrong.
<tsimonq2> flixr: You might want to file a bug against dpkg, that's a good way to report it.
<tsimonq2> !info dpkg zesty
<ubottu> dpkg (source: dpkg): Debian package management system. In component main, is required. Version 1.18.10ubuntu1 (zesty), package size 2137 kB, installed size 6852 kB
<tsimonq2> !info dpkg yakkety
<ubottu> dpkg (source: dpkg): Debian package management system. In component main, is required. Version 1.18.10ubuntu1 (yakkety), package size 2137 kB, installed size 6852 kB
<tsimonq2> Ahh ok...
<tsimonq2> !info dpkg unstable
<ubottu> dpkg (source: dpkg): Debian package management system. In component main, is required. Version 1.18.18 (unstable), package size 2050 kB, installed size 6746 kB
<flixr> tsimonq2, file a bug https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/dpkg/+bug/1652945
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1652945 in dpkg (Ubuntu) "dpkg-parsechangelog intolerant of unfinalised changelogs" [Undecided,Confirmed]
<tsimonq2> flixr: Ok, thanks.
<tsimonq2> Hey everyone, I'm a little stuck on this and since Steve is on holiday, I thought I might ask to see if anyone here knows how to deal with this
<tsimonq2> bug 1648295
<ubottu> bug 1648295 in freehdl (Ubuntu) "Revert GCC 5 ABI change" [Undecided,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1648295
<tsimonq2> So this merge is because of a change made when G++5 was landing(?)
<mapreri> tsimonq2: what you did in that last patch is exactly what I was suggesting to you in private, just that that change could be done in Debian too (is a nop), with the single problem that you'd need to make sure nobody removes it before 18.04 (but I'd like to think a comment explaining that could be enough).
<mapreri> now, dinner for me, cu later!
<tsimonq2> I guess I saw examples of Steve doing this (he pointed me to zesty-changes) and I'm wondering if I did this right.
<tsimonq2> And why does it need to be done this way?
<tsimonq2> o/ mapreri
<tsimonq2> (Steve being Steve Langasek)
<mitya57> tsimonq2, s/Conflicts/Breaks/, I see no reason for Conflicts here
<mitya57> Also maybe Provides is not necessary, but it won't hurt either.
<mitya57> Do you want me to sponsor it?
<tsimonq2> mitya57: Ok, so why Breaks, not Conflicts?
<tsimonq2> What's your reasoning for that?
<tsimonq2> (seeing as Conflicts is already there)
<tsimonq2> mitya57: Like I said, I was using something Steve did as a model... :)
<rbasak> Usually it's Breaks that is normal, and Conflicts that needs some special reasoning.
<tsimonq2> Ok, fair enough. Then why might Steve do this? http://launchpadlibrarian.net/290421985/hmat-oss_1.2.0-1ubuntu1_1.2.0-2ubuntu1.diff.gz
<mitya57> It's more difficult for APT to handle Conflicts
<tsimonq2> (just hoping to understand why he did it that way versus using Breaks)
<tsimonq2> And when do I use Conflicts instead?
<rbasak> Conflict/Replace/Provide is special. It's for swapping virtual packages.
<rbasak> I suggest not cargo culting, not even if it's from Steve :-)
<tsimonq2> Heh. :P
<rbasak> You might find https://wiki.debian.org/PackageTransition helpful
<tsimonq2> rbasak: Oh cool thanks
<rbasak> Also https://www.debian.org/doc/debian-policy/ch-relationships.html
<mitya57> I don't really know why Steve used conflicts, but that's unnecessary here. Also thanks rbasak for pasting these links :)
<tsimonq2> But when dealing with merges with G++5 ABI stuff, I should use Breaks, Replaces, and Provides won't hurt?
<rbasak> why Steve used conflicts> because " Conflicts should be used
<rbasak> ...
<rbasak> in conjunction with Provides when only one package providing a given virtual facility may be unpacked at a time "
<rbasak> from https://www.debian.org/doc/debian-policy/ch-relationships.html#s-conflicts
<rbasak> (I assume, as I see that he's also doing Provides)
<slangasek> because Conflicts/Provides/Replaces has a special meaning
<tsimonq2> OHAI slangasek :)
 * slangasek waves
<slangasek> unfortunately the meanings of these fields are not independent
<mitya57> Doesn't Breaks/Provides/Replaces have the same meaning then?
<tsimonq2> Isn't Breaks/Provides/Replaces used when package X-dev0v5 (for example) is replacing X-dev0 and it shouldn't be installed at the same time?
<tsimonq2> When is that used?
 * tsimonq2 searches list archives for why this particular transition was done this way
<tsimonq2> Oh so this I think? https://wiki.debian.org/GCC5#libstdc.2B-.2B-_ABI_transition
<mitya57> That page suggests using Breaks/Replaces, that's what I would use too
<mitya57> As far as I understand, Conflicts is used when there are two packages that provide the same file, and they both will continue to exist. In our case one of the packages will no longer exist, in which case Breaks is better.
<mitya57> But maybe slangasek can explain where I am wrong :)
<tsimonq2> mitya57: Alright, if I respond to the bug with an updated diff, would you sponsor? :)
<mitya57> No need for updated diff, I want to see if slangasek has any explanation for Conflicts, and then I'll sponsor it.
<tsimonq2> Ok cool
<mitya57> tsimonq2, ok, uploading your change as is. There are no rdependencies, right?
<tsimonq2> mitya57: Haven't checked, please do!
<mitya57> Looks like no
<tsimonq2> mitya57: So why would that matter then? Would they need a no-change rebuild?
<mitya57> Yes, the might need it
<mitya57> E: freehdl source: version-substvar-for-external-package libfreehdl0-dev -> libfreehdl0v5
<tsimonq2> O_o
<mitya57> .shlibs and .lintian-overrides need to be renamed, and some other file need s/v5//
<tsimonq2> mitya57: But you didn't upload yet right?
<mitya57> Right
<mitya57> I'll fix that myself
<tsimonq2> Ok, Good.
<tsimonq2> Awesome, thanks. :)
<mitya57> (oh wait, why is there a .shlibs file in the source? it should be generated by dh_makeshlibs)
<mitya57> (but the package uses the ancient debhelper level v5 so this might not work)
<tsimonq2> ...?
<mitya57> tsimonq2, this is what I got as a diff: http://launchpadlibrarian.net/300468451/freehdl_0.0.8-2.2ubuntu1_0.0.8-2.2ubuntu2.diff.gz
<mitya57> Now the package is mostly identical to Debian
<tsimonq2> Yay
<tsimonq2> Ok, I see you uploaded, got the email \o/
<tzero> does dpkg-buildpackage require a GPG key to be saved with a passphrase? I have used `gpg --edit-key` and `passwd` with blank passphrase to remove it (or so I believe), but still get prompted
<ytrezq> Hello, how to build a .deb source package with the Intel compiler (icc instead of gcc)??
<slangasek> mitya57: you have that backwards; when one of the packages is being obsoleted completely, Conflicts is preferred
#ubuntu-devel 2016-12-29
<tsimonq2> slangasek: Should be good to go then, he uploaded as is with Conflicts instead of Breaks, going with what you said, now it just needs pushing through NEW by an archive admin... :)
<slangasek> fossfreedom: hi, so I'm reviewing NEW packages, and I'm confused about the changelog rationale for budgie-lightdm-theme-base.  What do you mean by "self budgie-desktop builds using the Ubuntu Minimal ISO"?
<fossfreedom> slangasek: quite a few people in the community have asked for the ability to create their own builds of budgie-desktop.  So rather that starting from the full ISO and deinstalling they are building from - I presume the netiso or similar - and wanted a simpler method to get a working desktop without pulling in the various customisations/artwork/themes/icon-sets etc we have in Ubuntu Budgie.
<ginggs> tsimonq2: do you think we can revert renaming library packages for g++5 ABI transition in healpix-cxx?  Then healpy will become sync-able.
<mitya57> slangasek, hm, the policy says a different thing
<mitya57> Conflicts should be used â¦ when two packages provide the same file and *will continue to do so*
<mitya57> (emphasis mine). So not when one of them is being obsoleted completely.
<mitya57> That case seems to fall under "when moving a file from one package to another" which is Breaks according to the policy
<fossfreedom> on the off-chance ... anybody have any ideas why our daily builds are failing at the moment?  https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-cdimage/+livefs/ubuntu/zesty/ubuntu-budgie
<cjwatson> mitya57: Conflicts+Replaces is described separately
<cjwatson> mitya57: https://www.debian.org/doc/debian-policy/ch-relationships.html#s7.6.2
<mitya57> cjwatson, thanks a lot, now I finally understand it :)
<teward> this may sound stupid, but how do I disable PIE / PIC in package rules for a given package?
<teward> (nginx merge won't build with it)
<hjd> teward: https://wiki.debian.org/Hardening/PIEByDefaultTransition possibly -no-pie (don
<hjd> 't really know much about this)
<hjd> I'm not sure how large the Ubuntu delta for this package is, but when merging from Debian, presumably that part built successfully with PIE?
<teward> we haven't had a merge since 16.04
<teward> just direct updates
<teward> so... yeah...
<teward> blurgh.
<hjd> oh :/
<hjd> I see, might be easier to look at whether PIE can be enabled again once the delta is more under control? :p
<teward> it's not the delta, it's upstream changes that introduce breakage
<teward> in dynamic modules
<teward> so there's no solution at the moment
<hjd> teward: I'm not familiar with the nginx package so I might be missing something obvious, but if the problem is in the upstream code, shouldn't that cause problems in Debian as well? Looks like it built fine there just a couple of days ago.
<tzero> uscan is supposed to work, right?
<tzero> like, `uscan -d` is supposed to follow the watch file and download something instead of report: "uscan warn: No upstream tarball downloaded."
<hjd> tzero: Does it give any other warnings or error messages?
<hjd> You could try with `--verbose` or even `--force-download` (check the manpage for details)
<tzero> hjd: only "uscan info:    => Package is up to date for from" and "uscan info: Not downloading upstream package: "; it finds everything correctly (watch file is just the standard github boilerplate), mangles the download URL, then tells me it's not going to actually download anything
<tzero> oh, force-download works.. why is that even necessary
<hjd> I'm afraid I don't know.
<ginggs> teward: try DEB_BUILD_MAINT_OPTIONS=hardening=+all,-pie in debian/rules
<ginggs> autopkgtests against lmfit-py armhf fail since python-pandas is no longer available for this arch. Can anything be done to prevent these tests from being run, or the results ignored? affected packages are python-numpy,  python-defaults,  matplotlib, python-stdlib-extensions and pandas.
<tumbleweed> ginggs: we can tell britney that lmfit-py is known to fail on armhf
<tumbleweed> (force-badtest)
<ginggs> tumbleweed: thanks.  anyone around who can do this? ^
 * tumbleweed can
<ginggs> would tumbleweed then, please?
<tumbleweed> ginggs: it's not just armhf: https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/pandas/0.19.1-3
<ginggs> tumbleweed: see e.g. http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-archive/proposed-migration/update_excuses.html#python-stdlib-extensions
<ginggs> only armhf shows a regression
<ginggs> ah, we don't run autopkgtest on arm64 and powerpc
<tumbleweed> ginggs: and the version that is in release is published for armhf, so the autopkgtests should be using that...
<ginggs> tumbleweed: i think the python-pandas binaries in release have already been removed so it can migrate
<tumbleweed> ginggs: aah
<tumbleweed> ginggs: done
<ginggs> tumbleweed: thanks! and goodnight
#ubuntu-devel 2016-12-30
<tumbleweed> ginggs: good, that seems to have done the trick for python-stdlib-extension
<teward> hjd: nginx code upstream isn't built with PIE, they don't enable PIE I don't think, not sure how Debian fixed it if at all
<teward> ginggs: ahhh, i think i typoed, let me buildtest in sbuild
<teward> if that works you get the gold star.
<teward> ginggs: you're amazing, that helped fix the problem i'm having with builds.  Back to work for me xD
<teward> (after sleep)
<teward> thank you again!
<teward> ginggs: well, it works fine locally but not on PPAs for test builds :/
<tsimonq2> ginggs: My guess is, go for it
<ginggs> tsimonq2: looking at healpix-cxx now, there's a note from slangasek in the changelog. I'm going to merge healpy instead.
<tsimonq2> ginggs: Ok
<tsimonq2> ginggs: Wait there is? Where are you looking?
<ginggs> tsimonq2: see the changelog entry for healpix-cxx 3.30.0-2ubuntu1
<tsimonq2> ginggs: So I guess I'm not understanding this - why keep the delta here?
<ginggs> tsimonq2: i think only because nobody has gone to look whether the API changed or not. Debian bug #791068 was closed because healpix-cxx was never part of a stable release
<ubottu> Debian bug 791068 in src:healpix-cxx "healpix-cxx: library transition may be needed when GCC 5 is the default" [Important,Open] http://bugs.debian.org/791068
<tsimonq2> ginggs: So they didn't transition because healpix-cxx had never been in a stable release, why would they do that?
<ginggs> tsimonq2: i guess because they didn't need to worry about upgrades?
<tsimonq2> ginggs: So then why were package renames done in the first place?
 * tsimonq2 read over the docs and still doesn't understand
<ginggs> tsimonq2: if the library's API changed (i.e. things were using the cx11 symbols), then a rename and a transition were required. i think there was also a bit of "if in doubt, rename"
<ginggs> anyone archive admins around who can remove python-sunpy and python3-sunpy 0.7.3-1 on arm64 and armhf from zesty-proposed, please? (should have been removed in LP: #1643151)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1643151 in sunpy (Ubuntu) "Please remove sad pandas and friends" [Undecided,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1643151
<fossfreedom> Hi all - need some advice please - re this bug report https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/unity/+bug/1506744
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1506744 in bamf (Ubuntu) "Newly installed applications do not show in the dash" [Medium,In progress]
<fossfreedom> The patch that was applied to gnome-menus is crashing our key package "budgie-desktop"
<fossfreedom> not sure how to proceed.  Thoughts?
<slangasek> ginggs, tsimonq2: healpix> it hadn't been in a stable *Debian* release; sadly Debian decided to take shortcuts on this particular ABI transition that cause deltas downstream
#ubuntu-devel 2016-12-31
<tsimonq2> slangasek: healpix> :(, ok thank you
#ubuntu-devel 2017-12-25
<Gigab410> âââââââââââââ HAPPY NIGGER MAS!! IF YOU WANT JOIN A CELEBRATION THAT IS NIGGER FREE PLEASE JOIN #/JOIN RIGHT HERE ON THIS NETWORK!! yuhvno: juergh_ rbasak blahdeblah balkamos eoli3n TJ- Foxtrot hggdh grumble zhongjun ltrager gavinlin Calvin` jugo milli phunysanta ogra_ Pwnna Elimin8er bluesabre debfx sary alexlist smb hloeung jjohansen Laney udevbot maheshpec mdes
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<Gigab410> ââââââââââââ HAPPY NIGGER MAS!! IF YOU WANT JOIN A CELEBRATION THAT IS NIGGER FREE PLEASE JOIN #/JOIN RIGHT HERE ON THIS NETWORK!! dulwxewwyc: fginther blahdeblah sladen udevbot Calvin` m_tadeu gavinlin rbasak mneptok tacocat zhongjun hggdh phunysanta Elimin8er Laney Pwnna milli rbalint maheshpec grumble mhall119 vtapia balkamos jugo smb alexlist d1b mariogrip pdeee eoli3n
<Gigab410> ââââââââââââââââââââ HAPPY NIGGER MAS!! IF YOU WANT JOIN A CELEBRATION THAT IS NIGGER FREE PLEASE JOIN #/JOIN RIGHT HERE ON THIS NETWORK!! szwmcheci: marlinc d1b dreamcat4 m_tadeu fginther grumble alexlist Spads sbeattie sladen Orphis ret2libc hggdh smb tacocat juergh_ ejat sary Calvin` rbalint debfx h
<Gigab410> ââââââââââââââ HAPPY NIGGER MAS!! IF YOU WANT JOIN A CELEBRATION THAT IS NIGGER FREE PLEASE JOIN #/JOIN RIGHT HERE ON THIS NETWORK!! tsljc: Pwnna zhongjun hloeung dupondje phunysanta sary Son_Goku fginther eoli3n milli ltrager blahdeblah Spads Calvin` caribou sladen ejat alexlist sbeattie maheshpec d1b mariogrip m_tadeu wgrant jjohansen ogra_ schmidtm mde
<Gigab410> ââââââââââââââââ HAPPY NIGGER MAS!! IF YOU WANT JOIN A CELEBRATION THAT IS NIGGER FREE PLEASE JOIN #/JOIN RIGHT HERE ON THIS NETWORK!! obvphmronk: caribou alexlist bluesabre maheshpec soee fginther gavinlin m_tadeu blahdeblah smb eoli3n ret2libc TJ- grumble jugo balkamos zhongjun mdeslaur pdeee udevbot mhall119 ejat sconklin Elimin8er wg
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<valorie> sheesh
#ubuntu-devel 2017-12-26
<nov585> âââââââââââââââââââ DO YOU WANT TO KEEP YOUR MAN SATISFIED DURING THE CHRISTMAS BREAK?? EL IS GIVING ANAL SEX TIPS IN ##FEMINISM RIGHT NOW DONT MISS IT oldwjqz: Orphis vtapia kissiel sladen Laney ogra_ jbicha dupondje JackFrost schmidtm retoaded Elimin8er hggdh fginther gavinlin apw marlinc Calvin` Spads debfx
<nov585> âââââââââââââ DO YOU WANT TO KEEP YOUR MAN SATISFIED DURING THE CHRISTMAS BREAK?? EL IS GIVING ANAL SEX TIPS IN ##FEMINISM RIGHT NOW DONT MISS IT apsmk: Elimin8er grumble soee_ m_tadeu bluesabre ogra_ gavinlin hggdh pdeee smb milli jjohansen Foxtrot jugo rbasak schmidtm jbicha tacocat eoli3n fginther rbalint balkamos phunysanta mdeslaur JackFrost sary Laif alexlis
<nov585> ââââââââââ DO YOU WANT TO KEEP YOUR MAN SATISFIED DURING THE CHRISTMAS BREAK?? EL IS GIVING ANAL SEX TIPS IN ##FEMINISM RIGHT NOW DONT MISS IT ffvex: d1b Laney gavinlin marlinc hloeung hggdh mdeslaur eoli3n schmidtm apw dupondje wgrant rbasak tacocat mhall119 pdeee mario bluesabre caribou m_tadeu mneptok ejat juergh_ ikepanhc soee_ grumble Elimin8er Spads sconklin fginther blahdeblah jugo o
<nov585> ââââââââââââââââââ DO YOU WANT TO KEEP YOUR MAN SATISFIED DURING THE CHRISTMAS BREAK?? EL IS GIVING ANAL SEX TIPS IN ##FEMINISM RIGHT NOW DONT MISS IT zpkktgbf: zhongjun phunysanta dupondje Spads sladen rbasak jjohansen Calvin` gavinlin tacocat m_tadeu schmidtm rbalint soee_ apw kissiel jbicha Elimin8er milli giraffe ma
<nov585> ââââââââââââ DO YOU WANT TO KEEP YOUR MAN SATISFIED DURING THE CHRISTMAS BREAK?? EL IS GIVING ANAL SEX TIPS IN ##FEMINISM RIGHT NOW DONT MISS IT arqjjgvj: jbicha sconklin phunysanta kissiel alexlist gavinlin m_tadeu sladen giraffe ikepanhc ltrager Spads ejat jjohansen pdeee juergh_ soee_ balkamos sary grumble wgrant ret2libc mdeslaur bluesabre caribou milli zhongjun Elimin
<nov585> ââââââââââââ DO YOU WANT TO KEEP YOUR MAN SATISFIED DURING THE CHRISTMAS BREAK?? EL IS GIVING ANAL SEX TIPS IN ##FEMINISM RIGHT NOW DONT MISS IT gbdqbrpos: marlinc ret2libc ogra_ schmidtm bluesabre ikepanhc hggdh Pwnna jugo sladen ejat blahdeblah mario tacocat debfx fginther milli giraffe gavinlin zhongjun sary mneptok mdeslaur JackFrost vtapia juergh_ Foxtrot retoaded eol
<nov585> âââââââââââââ DO YOU WANT TO KEEP YOUR MAN SATISFIED DURING THE CHRISTMAS BREAK?? EL IS GIVING ANAL SEX TIPS IN ##FEMINISM RIGHT NOW DONT MISS IT lhcucvnayr: fginther giraffe wgrant milli jjohansen hggdh dupondje mdeslaur marlinc rbasak Pwnna sary Orphis hloeung soee_ ikepanhc grumble Laney udevbot JackFrost jbicha alexlist mhall119 Elimin8er eoli3n Calvin` vtapia
<nov585> ââââââââââââââââ DO YOU WANT TO KEEP YOUR MAN SATISFIED DURING THE CHRISTMAS BREAK?? EL IS GIVING ANAL SEX TIPS IN ##FEMINISM RIGHT NOW DONT MISS IT xvdzicet: retoaded bluesabre sary mneptok Laif jjohansen caribou vtapia marlinc wgrant Foxtrot ogra_ JackFrost milli mhall119 dupondje Pwnna alexlist Spads Laney smb debfx tacocat fginther C
<nov585> âââââââââââ DO YOU WANT TO KEEP YOUR MAN SATISFIED DURING THE CHRISTMAS BREAK?? EL IS GIVING ANAL SEX TIPS IN ##FEMINISM RIGHT NOW DONT MISS IT amqrncjdjd: mhall119 Laney smb ejat JackFrost phunysanta sladen marlinc m_tadeu ltrager bluesabre sconklin eoli3n jjohansen jbicha alexlist blahdeblah giraffe kissiel dupondje apw wgrant ikepanhc schmidtm Calvin` zhongjun gavinlin mdeslaur
<jjohansen> stgraber: just so you are aware for the holidays we are setting kernel.unprivileged_bpf_disabled systctl) to disabled as a mitigation to deal with http://www.openwall.com/lists/oss-security/2017/12/24/1
<jjohansen> this will prevent unprivileged user namespace containers from loading ebpf
<jjohansen> lool: ^
<stgraber> does that affect seccomp? IIRC it's not actually using the ebpf parser
<stgraber> if not, I don't think anyone will notice
<jjohansen> stgraber: it blocks ebpf loads at the syscall
<stgraber> ok, so not a problem then, seccomp definitely doesn't use the ebpf syscalls
<jjohansen> so I would assume so, but I haven't checked
<lool> stgraber: would iptables from inside a container be affected?
<stgraber> lool: maybe, though not stock iptables, only fancy xtables + bpf I'd think
<lool> maybe tc
<stgraber> some of those may use ebpf behind the scenes but since jjohansen says this only restricts access to the syscall itself, none of those should be affected
<stgraber> it should only really affect things like xpf that directly rely on a loaded piece of ebpf code
<stgraber> and I'm not sure how much of that is accessible from an unprivileged user today
<jjohansen> stgraber: well, the syscall check is !capable() or the sysctl() so its accessible, but I am not really aware of users
<lool> what's the list of syscalls? just bpf()?
<lool> https://codesearch.debian.net/search?q=bpf%5C%28
<jjohansen> an unprivileged container, where the OS thinks its privileged is the most likely place this will trip since its not ns_capable but checking capable in the init ns
<lool> shows these source packages with calls in Debian: ecasound kfreebsd-10 bpfcc golang-github-seccomp-libseccomp-golang linux-grsec ncl libtrace3 trinity isc-kea pyroute2 nfstrace wireguard python-pypcap netsniff-ng p0f systemtap pan golang-github-vishvananda-netlink guitarix iproute2 gnomad2 llvm-toolchain-3.7 moc gnuradio pcaputils snapd tcpflow tcpdump gtkpod libseccomp tcpreplay mplayer arp-scan dnsmasq gstreamermm-1.0 linux libpcap aegisub chuck p
<jjohansen> lool: yeah, ebp just has the 1 syscall
<lool> systemd might be worth a check, seems to make copious use
<jjohansen> yeah it might trip in an unprivileged container
<lool> I guess the other ones fall into advanced use cases and documentation to disable the default secure behavior might be enough
<jjohansen> it won't affect the host since it will have init ns capability
<lool> I've changed the RE to bpf\s*\( and it shows qemu as well
<lool> and isc-dhcp
<lool> qemu is just user mode
<lool> should probably query Ubuntu sources though  :-)
<lool> Is there an Ubuntu code search by any chance?
<tsimonq2> lool: packages.ubuntu.com :)
<lool> tsimonq2: oh didn't know it could do codesearch
<lool> tsimonq2: hmm where is this specifically?
<dax> it can't, as far as i know
<tsimonq2> lool: Well, not codesearch in the sense of Debian's codesearch, but you can search filenames :/
 * tsimonq2 was a little mistaken there, sorrt
<tsimonq2> s/sorrt/sorry/
<lool> ah yeah; nah I was looking for codesearch equivalent but against Ubuntu sources; apparently someone ran this in the past
<lool> (there's a mention of http://ubuntu-codesearch.surgut.co.uk on ask.u.c)
<lool> anyway, time for bed
 * lool &
<Faux> Note Debian codesearch misses a load of things due to terrible source packages; e.g. openjdk just being a big gzip. (fixed in new openjdk)
#ubuntu-devel 2017-12-27
<JackFrost> A wild Faux!
<JackFrost> Hello.
<Faux> Hello.
<JackFrost> (I'm Unit193.)
<Faux> I guessed, from the whois.
<tsimonq2> JackFrost: I thought you were a GCI student, to be honest. Heh.
<stgraber> jjohansen: hmm, if the check isn't ns_capable() then it would always fail inside an unprivileged container
<stgraber> jjohansen: and would always succeed inside a privileged container (as we don't drop whatever caps it's looking for)
<stgraber> jjohansen: unless it's an unpriv container which is spawned through a binary that's got an fscap added, then indeed the sysctl would block that :)
<jjohansen> right, but seccomp uses its own mechanism, and so do some of the other users
<jjohansen> of ebpf
<JackFrost> A code browser would be useful enough as it is, such that one doesn't have to download the package just to check something quickly.
<jjohansen> which actually is concerning in that, we need to check these as well and the sysctl mitigation may not be sufficient
<stgraber> yeah, at least seccomp should be fine as it's not full on ebpf, it's a much more restricted subset of bpf
<stgraber> I have no idea what iptables and others do
<stgraber> but since they don't have a long lasting process to attach the program to, they clearly have some other mechanism to deal with this
<stgraber> so long as we don't break seccomp with this (and lool's testing suggests we aren't), we should be fine
<stgraber> and since it's a sysctl, someone can always flip it back if it's critical for their operation
<stgraber> though not sure how that'd play with livepatch :)
<wxl> ypwong: just got a new HP Envy and it appears to have an Insyde BIOS, so potentially liable to the whole intel_spi bug. Is there any way I can help with testing that won't necessarily brick my device (forever)? :)
<jjohansen> right, the sysctl looks like it isn't going to break too much, so it works as a mitigation until we can get the larger change out
<jjohansen> we just wanted you to be aware we were flipping it as LXD was one of the places where we figured problems might surface
<stgraber> yep, thanks for the heads up
<ypwong> wxl, i am afraid not... yet
<wxl> ypwong: ok, well i dedicate my machine to the cause, should you need a tester :)
<ypwong> wxl, that's great! Thanks for the offer. Will loop you in when we have something reliable to be tested :)
<wxl> sounds good :)
<tsimonq2> ypwong: I know it may be a lot to ask right now given the holidays (Happy Holidays, btw!) but is there a timeline at all? (If not, what's the current status of getting that fixed?)
<ypwong> tsimonq2, although it's holiday but Mika from Intel and I have been trying out to recover the bios from ubuntu, we have something that works sometimes but since it doesn't work always we are afraid there will be risks in breaking other things.
<tsimonq2> ypwong: Alright
<tsimonq2> ypwong: Keep us updated, and many thanks to everyone that's been involved in dealing with this!
<wxl> +1
<tsimonq2> s/dealing with this/getting this solved/
<wxl> ypwong: is there a definitive way i can determine whether or not this particular insyde bios is affected? from what i read in the bug report, it wasn't entirely clear that it was a problem with the BIOS manufacturer or the chip manufacturer.
<ypwong> wxl, yeah, we are also not sure yet, i just starting talking to insyde to find out more
<wxl> ypwong: ok. i'll leave you alone some more XD
<ypwong> :)
<Fra> ciao
<Fra> !list
<ubottu> Fra: No warez here! This is not a file sharing channel (or network); read the channel topic. If you're looking for information about me, type Â« /msg ubottu !bot Â». If you're looking for a channel, see Â« /msg ubottu !alis Â».
#ubuntu-devel 2017-12-28
<TDO|Aquina> Do you know how much within X/Ubuntu (package-wise) 10/12/14/16 depends on AMD's 3DNow! technology?
#ubuntu-devel 2017-12-29
<elbrus> LocutusOfBorg: reg. liferea, can't we come up with a scheme where I keep the Ubuntu patches in the Debian package?
<elbrus> I remember it is possible, but I can never find the documentation on how to do that.
<jbicha> elbrus: you can have a debian/patches/ubuntu.series which will need to list all the patches from debian/patches/series plus the Ubuntu-specific ones
<jbicha> when you add a patch, you need to remember to update both series files
<elbrus> jbicha: thanks, that is exactly what I was looking for
<elbrus> I'll add some logic to the clean target to generate this in the appropriate way I guess
<LocutusOfBorg> elbrus, you can look at filezilla, where I did exactly that
<LocutusOfBorg> you don't need to override clean
<elbrus> LocutusOfBorg: how does filezilla keep the ubuntu.series up-to-date with the debian.series?
<elbrus> that is what I wanted to achieve with the clean target logic
<Umeaboy> Hi!
<Umeaboy> Using 17.10 and I added the PPA for mozillateam and installed firefox-trunk and firefox-trunk-locales-sv, but Firefox still won't change into Swedish.
<Umeaboy> Need some help, please.
<Umeaboy> I have asked in #ubuntu-mozillateam as well, but no answer atm.
<wxl> Umeaboy: this is the wrong place. to be frank, the PPAs are not "supported," but you could try #ubuntu. failing that, just try #firefox on irc.mozilla.org.
<Umeaboy> OK.OK.
<Umeaboy> wxl: Still no answer in #firefox on irc.mozilla.org. I guess the majority of users in there aren't Europeans.
<wxl> Umeaboy: also, patience is a virtue. you could try the mailing lists. in general, PPAs are ONLY supported by the people that provide them
<Umeaboy> Yeah. It's kind of sad that Nightly isn't officially supported by Canonical.
<Umeaboy> I really like it. Other than this problem I really like the feel of the next version.
#ubuntu-devel 2017-12-30
<LocutusOfBorg> elbrus, no way, this is manually done...
<elbrus> LocutusOfBorg: I am not sure if I read your intentions of "no way" correctly. Can you elaborate?
<elbrus> anyways, I uploaded a new package of liferea to Debian, supporting the Ubuntu patches
<elbrus> so next one *should* be a possible to sync instead of merge
<LocutusOfBorg> elbrus, I mean, there is no automatic way to do it, if you want to override clean target, you can do it, but I'm not aware of any helper
<LocutusOfBorg> what makes me sad is:
<LocutusOfBorg> we should have "series" applied anyway, and everywhere
<LocutusOfBorg> debian.series applied after series only in debian
<LocutusOfBorg> and ubuntu.series applied after series only in ubuntu
<LocutusOfBorg> this way we could easily avoid to forget to sync the files
<LocutusOfBorg> I uploaded the one in incoming calling it "liferea 1.12.1-1~build1" so it will be autosynced in some hours
<otto_> is there a page similar to tracker.debian.org on Launchpad for packages in Ubuntu? WHere do I quickly get an overview of my packages in Ubuntu so I can check if there is something I should fix?
<wxl> otto_: does https://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-archive/proposed-migration/update_excuses.html help?
<tumbleweed> otto_: tracker.d.o can give you ubuntu data too (I think? at least packages.qa could)
<tumbleweed> ubuntu doesn't have maintainers, as much as debian - so not much in the way of maintainer-centric dashboards
<jbicha> otto_: are you this otto? https://udd.debian.org/dmd/?otto%40debian.org
<otto_> yes
<tsimonq2> otto_: In DuckDuckGo I can do !upkg foo and that's the only page I know of...
<ginggs> otto_: http://pad.lv/u/mariadb-10.2 also works
<tsimonq2> Ohh, TIL
<ginggs> tsimonq2: there's a whole bunch of pad.lv shorteners: see http://pad.lv/
<tsimonq2> ginggs: Right, I've used the bug one :)
#ubuntu-devel 2017-12-31
<elbrus> LocutusOfBorg: I agree about the series applying after, but one needs to be reminded to keep them in sync
<elbrus> i.e. a pathc can "not apply" after other patches in series or after new upstream
<elbrus> and testing on Debian will only automatically catch inconsistencies in the Debian train...
<elbrus> so I think a helper that notices these things would be great
 * elbrus isn't going to make it
<LocutusOfBorg> true
<cjwatson> honestly I think debian/patches/<distro>.series has proven to be bad design in most cases.  better to construct patches that can have conditional behaviour, if necessary
<JackFrost> Conceptually I like it, but since most patches that are only for Ubuntu don't get checked if they apply to new upstreams...It's a bit more unfortunate.  Mainly works only in cases where the maintainer is the same in Ubuntu as Debian (or stranger cases like libxfce4util that the patch only applies to Debian.)
<jbicha> elbrus: btw, the add_X-Ubuntu-Gettext-Domain.patch should be harmless on Debian
#ubuntu-devel 2018-12-26
<notbobdole> hi all. Anyone here build kernels? I'm looking to start building origin/drm-next-4.21-wip specifically for the amdgpu updates
<notbobdole> and this is my first time dealing with kernel compiling. So I wanted to ask for tips/advice given I have a specific goal and only a surface level understanding of what I'm doing.
<valorie> notbobdole: have you asked in #ubuntu-kernel ?
<notbobdole> Been getting recommended a bunch of channels and I feel spammy
<notbobdole> I can try there
<valorie> seems like you would have a greater chance of an answer there, although I've noticed very sparse traffic in all of freenode the past couple of days
<notbobdole> holidays :D
<valorie> when xmas hols are over you might have better luck
<notbobdole> I'm trying to fix this cause I found out my extra drive in my laptop wasn't dead.
<notbobdole> Just a loose cable and travel fixed it
<valorie> nice
<notbobdole> \o/
#ubuntu-devel 2018-12-27
<larsmw> I am trying out the Disco version of Ubuntu. Under the installation when I select my language (Danish) some of the UI is translated. But not all. Is this reported as a bug?
<tomreyn> if it is, you'll find it on the bug tracker.
<tomreyn> ubuntu uses launchpad.net to track bugs.
<tomreyn> the ubuntu desktop installer package is called "ubiquity", the new server installer is called "subiquity"
<larsmw> thanks tomreyn, I'll search there after ubiquity :)
<tomreyn> good boy :)
<larsmw> :-D
<juliank> larsmw: it's still pretty early, not much point translating it now
<juliank> translations for disco do not seem open yet
<larsmw> juliank, ah, thanks... But looking at ubiquity it seems there are missing some translations for the earlier versions too?
<juliank> larsmw: so, danish in cosmic looks fully translated. but of course, other translations might be in worse shape. translations are done by community translator teams
<juliank> larsmw: everyone can suggest new translations, and a few people on the teams can approve them.
<teward> jbicha: any chance you can revisit #1779292 and patch-fix Bionic's gparted?  Can't resize an LVM PV because it's still impacted by the bug.  (Cosmic is fixed because it uses a newer gparted version).
<teward> you uploaded the 'fix' for Cosmic, but nobody went back and readdressed the bug for Bionic
<jbicha> teward: maybe ask psusi? that's the first I've seen that bug (all I did there was merge the Debian update)
<teward> jbicha: psusi isn't here.
<teward> jbicha: what I'll do is prep the SRU bug and then put it in the SRU queue and prod after the new year
<teward> because I consider that if LVM2 is *not resizeable* in gparted but it used to be, then the fault is in gparted especially if it's already upstream-patched and in COsmic.
<teward> i've already prepped the debdiff lol
<teward> jbicha: the only reason I poked you is because you TIL with the Cosmic sync and that's the last thing I see on it
<teward> but in either case, it's SRUable and pretty major one IMO
#ubuntu-devel 2018-12-28
<jbicha> teward: I'll sponsor it for you if you follow https://wiki.ubuntu.com/StableReleaseUpdates#Procedure
<teward> already did see #ubuntu-release
<jbicha> I'd like to see a Test Case in the bug description
<teward> i wrote one - in the SRU dedicated bug
<teward> linked in #ubuntu-release
<teward> (different #)
<teward> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/gparted/+bug/1809932
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1809932 in gparted (Ubuntu Bionic) "[SRU] [Bionic] gparted fails to shrink LVM PV with lvm2 >= 2.02.172" [High,New]
<teward> because CBA to mess with a bug already fix-released
<teward> so I wrote an SRU-specific one
<teward> but referred to both bugs in the changelog
 * jbicha looks up the acronym
<teward> Can't Be Arsed
<jbicha> ha, urbandictionary wins again
<jbicha> I'd prefer us to just use the already existing bug
<teward> OK I can move everything there
<teward> that's nontrivial :P
<teward> s/nontrivial/trivial/
<teward> 1 moment
<jbicha> I normally just add a header: Original Bug Report========
<teward> jbicha: yep, well, I use [Original Bug Description] for my header for that
<teward> applied the template and copied the Debdiff up with an upload
<teward> and did some post-copying cleanup of the description
<teward> thanks for adding the BIonic series to it
<teward> and subscribing teams accordingly
<teward> irritating gparted bug is irritating nonetheless
<teward> jbicha: been a while since I SRU'd anything other than NGINX heh
<jbicha> teward: can I assign the bug to you? Desktop team likes SRU bugs to be assigned to someone (so either me or you)
<teward> yep
<teward> i have no qualms about it especially when I'm helping with diffs.  I just don't have Core Dev so I can't upload directly heh
<teward> feel free to also let me know if I missed anything glaring in the debdiff
<themill> OOI why does https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/pycountry/17.5.14+ds1-0.1fakesync1credit the wrong person for 17.5.14+ds1-0.1?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 17 in Launchpad itself "System error" [High,Fix released]
<JackFrost> http://launchpadlibrarian.net/398042742/pycountry_17.5.14+ds1-0.1fakesync1_source.changes it's showing who did the 'fake sync', those tend to happen when there's a source tarball mismatch (as noted in the fakesync changelog entry.)
<themill> yes, that is one of the changelog entries, just not most of them
<JackFrost> Yes, the rest are previous Debian changes, it's common practice to include all Debian changelog entries since the last Ubuntu version.  I might not get what you're asking, I think.
<themill> (multi-maintainer changelog entries or multiple changelog entries are well known.)
<themill> credit should be given where it is due.
<JackFrost> Sounds like you don't like how dpkg-genchanges handles the -v option.
 * themill does
<themill> That says it's the changelog, not the changes file.
<JackFrost> As you'll see, http://changelogs.ubuntu.com/changelogs/pool/universe/p/pycountry/pycountry_17.5.14+ds1-0.1fakesync1/changelog looks correct.  I agree with you in that dpkg-genchanges doesn't really display that correctly, thus LP doesn't display it correctly either. :/
<JackFrost> I've looked at diffs when I wanted to see a proper d/changelog.
#ubuntu-devel 2019-12-23
<themill> Does launchpad/loggerhead let you download the entire repo at some revision or do I need to figure out how to talk to bzr? (I'd like to get https://bazaar.launchpad.net/~esys-p-dev/esys-particle/gengeo/files)
<xnox> themill:  bzr export gengeo.tar.gz https://bazaar.launchpad.net/~esys-p-dev/esys-particle/gengeo
<xnox> sigh, wrong
<xnox> bzr export gengeo.tar.gz lp:~esys-p-dev/esys-particle/gengeo
<xnox> this one works
<hallyn> hey guys - i'm looking for the packaging for the 'skeyer' package which existed in vivid but not since then.  Is that archived somewhere?
<hallyn> (behing really lazy - i *could* just recreate it from scratch, i know...)
<xnox> hallyn:  http://old-releases.ubuntu.com/ is the archive for archived stuff
<hallyn> xnox: thanks.  oddly, not finding skeyer there, but i'll keep looking
<xnox> hm, you sure it was in Ubuntu https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/skeyer/+publishinghistory ?
<xnox> not a single ppa either https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+ppas?name_filter=skeyer&show_inactive=on
<hallyn> xnox: well it was for ubuntu phone.
<hallyn> no i'm not sure
<hallyn> as i look at the source, i'm also not sure that this is legal (GPL library used in an LGPL project), so i may just have to do something completely different
<hallyn> xnox: oh, yeah, i guess it was in michael.sheldon ppa for vivid only
<xnox> hallyn:  there is an external phone fork, they could have it still.
<hallyn> you're talking about ubports?
<hallyn> they don't have it :(
<hallyn> but, thanks :)   \o
#ubuntu-devel 2019-12-24
<themill> xnox: thanks! now to find out if this upstream has heard of Python 3 yet....
<xnox> themill:  they have not
#ubuntu-devel 2019-12-25
<CarlFK>  ubuntu-19.10-desktop-amd64.iso  usb stick, uefi lenovo twist ... https://photos.app.goo.gl/nmygfGvfDrxShpBZA    "error: file `/boot/' not found."
<CarlFK> is this worth filing a bug?
<caylorme> Any thought given to adding a customizable `root_persistence` (partition-label) parameter to casper? Would enable multiple persistence volumes on a single device... thoughts?
<tomreyn> CarlFK: btrfs? https://www.dionysopoulos.me/portable-ubuntu-on-usb-hdd/#comment-388
<CarlFK> tomreyn: nope.   I see 3 partitions:  iso9660, vfat and ext4
<tomreyn> oh installer, and you said so, sorry.
<CarlFK> no prob
<CarlFK> it gave me a text grub menu, I picked "install" and it did an efi install, so... buggy uefi on the thinkpad maybe?  not sure it is worth pursuing if no one is too excited about it.
<caylorme> is anyone familiar enough with casper to know if I just add a parameter (i.e. partition-label) to override the `root_persistence` var in the main script that this will allow for custom partition labels for live persistence?
<ahasenack> hello, these two MPs are incremental fixes to get krb5:i386 DEP8 to pass:
<ahasenack> https://code.launchpad.net/~ahasenack/ubuntu/+source/krb5/+git/krb5/+merge/377111
<ahasenack> and
<ahasenack> https://code.launchpad.net/~ahasenack/ubuntu/+source/kerberos-configs/+git/kerberos-configs/+merge/377110
<sunweaver> ginggs: I have prepare a ubuntu/bionic/updates branch on salsa.debian.org. Do you think you can sponsor x2goclient from that git branch?
<sunweaver> https://salsa.debian.org/debian-remote-team/x2goclient/tree/ubuntu/bionic/updates
<sunweaver> DLange nudged you on that the other day...
<sunweaver> Merry X-Mas!
<sunweaver> + thanks!
<sunweaver> ginggs: I hope the versioning in d/changelog is ok for a bionic-updates upload.
<ginggs> sunweaver: i'll have a look in the morning
<ginggs> sunweaver: i would have used 4.1.1.1-2ubuntu0.18.04.1 (as per https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/UpdatePreparation#Update_the_packaging )
<ginggs> sunweaver: i think you will need to do at least  4.1.1.1-2ubuntu0.19.10.1 for ermine, otherwise the bionic version will be higher than in a supported release
<ginggs> sunweaver: the ermine version should be identical except for the changelog, right?  if so, i can just make the change myself before i upload
#ubuntu-devel 2019-12-26
<ginggs> sunweaver: I commented in the bug LP: #1856795
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1856795 in x2goclient (Ubuntu Eoan) "[SRU] X2Go Client broken by libssh CVE-2019-14889 fix" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1856795
<sunweaver> ginggs: for bionic-updates, please modify the version, I will update the branch on salsa accordingly.
<sunweaver> for eoan, I will provide a separate branch. The fix is the same, but on top of a newer upstream version.
<sunweaver> also for xenial, I will provide a branch.
<sunweaver> ubuntu/bionic/updates branch has been amended with the correct version.
<sunweaver> ginggs: ^ this was all about x2goclient ^
<sunweaver> ginggs: https://salsa.debian.org/debian-remote-team/x2goclient/commits/ubuntu/eoan/updates
<sunweaver> ggings: and https://salsa.debian.org/debian-remote-team/x2goclient/commits/ubuntu/xenial/updates
<sunweaver> oops... s/ggings/ginggs/
<sunweaver> ginggs: ^
<sunweaver> do these work for you?
<sunweaver> ahhh.. I should have read https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/libssh/+bug/1856795/comments/9 beforehand...
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1856795 in x2goclient (Ubuntu Eoan) "[SRU] X2Go Client broken by libssh CVE-2019-14889 fix" [Undecided,Confirmed]
#ubuntu-devel 2019-12-27
<teward> ... huh didn't know that autosyncs could ping me if i'm the maintainer in Debian o.O
<hallyn> xnox: hi - there used to be a way to ask for cross arch builds on a ppa.  Is it still possible?  Can I get armhf and arm64 builds enabled for ppa:serge-hallyn/ubports?
<fossfreedom> hallyn: if you are the ppa owner you can enable different processors via the launchpad ppa change details link
<hallyn> orly.  thanks, lemme check
<hallyn> (i thought in the past someone else had to enable that for me)
<hallyn> (but maybe that was fast kernel builds)
<hallyn> awesome - thanks
<cjwatson> hallyn: It used to be something staff had to do before 2016ish
<cjwatson> Ditto some builders being faster than others is no longer a thing
<hallyn> cool, thanks, i enabled arm, all set.
<joelkraehemann> hi all
<joelkraehemann> how does an application enter 20.04 from debian testing?
<joelkraehemann> when is the dead-line?
<ginggs> joelkraehemann: see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/FocalFossa/ReleaseSchedule
<joelkraehemann> February 27th is Debian Import Freeze ...
<joelkraehemann> thank you ginggs
<ginggs> joelkraehemann: yw!  packages can enter after that date by requesting a feature-freeze-exception
<hallyn> so i was able to upload the one package (okb-engine) to https://launchpad.net/~serge-hallyn/+archive/ubuntu/ubports/+packages , but the other (okb-keyboard) seems to silently either be dropped or waiting on something.
<hallyn> cjwatson: ^ where can i see whether the pkg is hung up on something?
<cjwatson> hallyn: There've been a variety of network difficulties recently that have affected the build farm in various ways.  We're poking occasionally as vacation time permits
<cjwatson> hallyn: Ah, but a missing upload is slightly different.  Moment
<cjwatson> hallyn: Our logs say that we sent you an automatic rejection email
<cjwatson> hallyn: I can pick it out of logs for you if need be, but it would probably be better if you checked whether email delivery to your preferred address registered on Launchpad works properly ...
<hallyn> cjwatson: d'oh, yeah, *that* email.  thanks, i'll go find it.
<hallyn> *blush* there is some nasty stuff among that email
<cjwatson> Glad it was just misfiled rather than undelivered.
#ubuntu-devel 2019-12-28
<KNERD> Is there a guide on building the OS? I am looking and not finding anythng
<hallyn> cjwatson: yeah - thanks again, sorry for takkng your time with that
<ahasenack> morning
<bipul> Morning.
<bipul> How to update Packages.gz file{Metadata information regarding /pool packages} inside the .iso ?
<bipul> updating the Packages.gz at ./dist/CodeName/binary-amd64/Packages.gz file for .deb files placed at ./pool/main/{a-z}+library ? ?
<ahasenack> no idea what that means or what you are trying to accomplish, sorry
<bipul> ahasenack, Editing .iso image and placing my program into /pool
<bipul> ./pool*
