#ubuntu-accessibility 2010-09-15
<pendulum|phone> FYI, tonight's meeting is likely to start late. I have to pick up a friend and then get to an Internet connection and the thing I'm picking up the friend from is so far running over by 30 min
<pendulum|phone> AlanBell: If I'm not around by 15 min late and there are people around for the meeting, can you run it?
<AlanBell> not doing that well myself on timing
 * AlanBell is using a phone on a train
<pendulum|phone> Heh. I'm phone in a car park
 * nigelb waves
<pendulum|phone> But at least I've now heard from the person I'm picking up so I know she should be out within the next 10!
<AlanBell> I think we just found a volunteer
<pendulum|phone> Heh
<pendulum|phone> Is my phone sending messages to the channel when I go away and come back?
<dutchie> there's a meeting tonight?
<pendulum|phone> Yes
<dutchie> lucky i got back from holidays then
<pendulum|phone> Anyway I'm getting offline so I can drive
<pendulum|phone> Catch y'all when I get to proper Internet!
 * AlanBell gets on another train
<nigelb> AlanBell: how many trains do you have to take to get home?
<AlanBell> two
<AlanBell> and a bike
<nigelb> AlanBell: I'm so jealous
 * nigelb <3 trains
<AlanBell> I used a Boris bike in London
<nigelb> AlanBell: is it like the system paris and montreal have?
<Pendulum> heya!
<Pendulum> nigelb: AlanBell TheMuso maco dutchie charlie-tca meeting?
<nigelb> o/
 * charlie-tca waves
<Pendulum> I assume y'all didn't start without me since it's quiet in here?
<charlie-tca> right
<dutchie> o/
 * dutchie pauses david mitchell
<nigelb> Pendulum: you're our fearless leader afterall :)
<maco> umm i'l be on in a bit. i have to get to the bus stop now
<maco> well hmmor i can be on now and leave in like 10 minutes and catch a later bus
<Pendulum> maco: take your bus :P
 * dutchie runs off for food
<maco> well i wont make it now anyway
<maco> its in 6 minutes, and its a 10 minute walk
<nigelb> run
<maco> i cant run that far!
<maco> i can run like... 50m!
<Pendulum> okay, might was well get started, I think
<maco> its an improvement over the 10m i could manage before, but still not enough to catch the bus :P
<nigelb> +1
<Pendulum> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Wed Sep 15 21:17:53 2010 UTC.  The chair is Pendulum. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/AlanBell.
<meetingology> updated
<meetingology> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic.
<meetingology> updated
<Pendulum> who all is here? I think saying "present" means the bot recognises you or something like that ;-)
<dutchie> updated?
<dutchie> present
<AlanBell> hi
<nigelb> present
<Pendulum> dutchie: ask AlanBell about the "updated"
<Pendulum> present :)
 * dutchie senses AlanBell has some debugging he forgot to disable
<AlanBell> oops
<Pendulum> heya hypatia :)
<Pendulum> dutchie: at least it no longer gives me hugs ;-)
<charlie-tca> present
 * AlanBell will bite
<AlanBell> oops
<dutchie> oh dear, i've made a mess out of this yoghurt
<nigelb> AlanBell: present => o/
 * AlanBell will be popping out
<Pendulum> okay, so meeting agenda is at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Accessibility/Team/MeetingAgenda
<maco> present
<Pendulum> #topic Review of what's been accomplished in Maverick cycle
<meetingology> TOPIC: Review of what's been accomplished in Maverick cycle
<Pendulum> So I guess the first thing is that we actually have a team!
<Pendulum> For the first time in a few years :)
<hypatia> woot!
<charlie-tca> That seems BIG!
<Pendulum> I think it is!
<nigelb> Yes it is!
<Pendulum> Thank you to everyone who has shown up and helped and supported so that it wasn't just me (or just me and TheMuso ) trying to do it all ourselves :-)
<Pendulum> other things that have happened:
<Pendulum> We managed to research the info for the Accessibility Personas and AlanBell , dutchie , and I have started putting them together to actually create the personas
<Pendulum> we should hopefully have them done by 10.10.10 :)
<Pendulum> charlie-tca and nigelb have started working to update the wiki to make it more current and make it slightly easier to follow
<Pendulum> nigelb: charlie-tca do either of you have an update on how that's going?
<nigelb> Work schedule has been killing lately.  (I'm at work at 3 am).  Perhaps in 2 weeks.  We could use some help.
<charlie-tca> We now have a meeting heading we can use to show when the next meeting is. Just update it one place to update all the pages
 * nigelb hugs charlie-tca 
<charlie-tca> We changed a couple of pages to see if there would be any feedback. No bad things came back yet
<Pendulum> okay so that has been started
<Pendulum> anyone who is interested in helping, please poke charlie-tca or nigelb :)
<Pendulum> oh, and if you're interested in the personas, please poke one of us who have been working on them
<charlie-tca> We are working slowly, to make sure nothing gets changed and can't be read by all of us
<Pendulum> charlie-tca: thank you so much!
<charlie-tca> You are welcome
<kinouchou> hello
<Pendulum> hi kinouchou :)
<charlie-tca> nigelb: did I miss anything?
<nigelb> charlie-tca: Nope :)
<charlie-tca> I do have a question, though.
<Pendulum> yes?
<charlie-tca> Does anyone have an opinion on putting the Table Of Contents first on the page instead of on the side?
<MichelleQ> sorry I'm late.  ;-)
<Pendulum> MichelleQ: no worries :)
<charlie-tca> It means having to go to the top of the page to see it, but I think that happens now.
<Pendulum> charlie-tca: doesn't bother me
<nigelb> Folks using scren readers could greatly help us make decisions while working on the wiki.
<charlie-tca> It does eliminate the two different items side-by-side on the page
<nigelb> If something is irritating/difficult to use, please let one of us know.
<Pendulum> my big thing is that I don't want the ToC to have all the pages listed on it (like it used to)
<charlie-tca> It won't 
<charlie-tca> done here
<Pendulum> I'd say if you're worried make a couple mock-ups and we can test them all out and figure out what's best :)
<Pendulum> e-mail the list for feedback :)
<Pendulum> TheMuso: are you around to give us an update of what's happened in terms of development this cycle?
<Pendulum> okay, I'm guessing he's not here yet (I know it's early for him)
<Pendulum> so that's all I can think of in terms of reviewing Maverick cycle
<maco> its sunrise for him
<Pendulum> Anyone else have anything to add?
<nigelb> o/
<Pendulum> nigelb: go for it
<nigelb> Team Reports!
<Pendulum> oh! yes! we did our first team report!
<nigelb> I figure we should have a rotating volunteer(s) to deal with it rather than one person
<Pendulum> if someone who is actually on their own computer has a link, can you stick it in?
<nigelb> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Accessibility/TeamReports
<Pendulum> for those who don't know Team Reports are done monthly and then show up in Ubuntu Weekly News as a way of informing the larger Ubuntu community of what we're doing :-)
<Pendulum> I like the idea of switching off who does them, but I think we may want to organize that through the mailing list because a couple people who might be willing to help out aren't here
<Pendulum> maybe it should go under our next item of business?
<Pendulum> anyone else?
<AlanBell> personally I think the team reports should be done by *everyone*
<nigelb> AlanBell: yes, but *somone* should make sure its done.
<AlanBell> if you do anything interesting, like revamping some wiki bits, chairing a meeting (like this one) blogging about something relevant then shove in a bullet point
<Pendulum> right
<AlanBell> I am happy to make sure it is done at the end of the month, that is one of the things that the ubuntu-for-all team will help with for various projects
<Pendulum> I'm also happy to be the final person since I work on UWN so am aware of when they need to be done by
<nigelb> I do it for another team awayway, so I'll be happy to help too.
<Pendulum> so it sounds like that shouldn't be an issue
<AlanBell> great
<Pendulum> is that it?
<Pendulum> going once...
<Pendulum> going twice...
<Pendulum> okay, next topic
<Pendulum> #topic Blueprint for UDS-N and the Natty Narwhal cycle 
<meetingology> TOPIC: Blueprint for UDS-N and the Natty Narwhal cycle
<Pendulum> So it's time to start thinking about our blueprint for the next cycle because our next meeting will be so right before UDS that we won't really have time
<Pendulum> last meeting I asked people to start thinking about it
<AlanBell> does the blueprint exist yet?
<Pendulum> no
<AlanBell> ok, I will stop looking for it then!
<AlanBell> one thing I think would be good would be to contribute an accessible moin theme for wiki.ubuntu.com
<Pendulum> I'm just going to assign myself to do that this week
<Pendulum> #action Pendulum to set-up UDS-N blueprint
<meetingology> ACTION: Pendulum to set-up UDS-N blueprint
<Pendulum> so what are things community/documentation/outreach related that people want to see next cycle?
<Pendulum> okay, I guess I"m starting
<Pendulum> for documentation one thing I'd like to have is a list of programs in Univers/Multiverse that are accessibility related split by what they do
<Pendulum> there's an old one on help.ubuntu.com but it's out of date and it's not clear how to find the programs
<Pendulum> (like some accessibility related programs aren't found in the Software Center's accessibility section)
<Pendulum> I'd also like to get an updated wiki page about the accessible install
<Pendulum> as AlanBell discovered, there's not much up-to-date info out there and it's not clear
<Pendulum> anyone else have any other documentation things they'd like to see?
<AlanBell> I think we have to continue with the personas, getting them attention
<Pendulum> yeah
<Pendulum> anything else?
<AlanBell> we should probably do more with upstreams too
<Pendulum> that's the next bit :)
<Pendulum> okay, so next bit I was going to ask about was outreach
<Pendulum> both internal outreach with Ubuntu, but also working with other projects
<Pendulum> for example, I've started doing some work with the Gnome Accessibility team and they'd love to work with us if anyone is interested in helping out there as well
<Pendulum> since a lot of accessibility work happens upstream, it'd be nice to work with them
<AlanBell> anything in particular they need?
<Pendulum> well, they're about to do a huge hackfest next month and one thing they're going to be doing then is tagging accessibility bugs
<Pendulum> and they're always looking for documentation help
<Pendulum> they hang out in #a11y on irc.gnome.org (which is technically gimpnet, but I never remember that)
<Pendulum> so anyone who wants to pop by there is welcome!
<Pendulum> as far as internal outreach, I think advertising the personas when they're done is a big thing
<Pendulum> also, I think if we could get more blogging done is good
<Pendulum> anyone else have any ideas?
<Pendulum> anyone? beuller?
<nigelb> scheduled blogging hitting the planet?
<nigelb> so somone talks about it at least once a week
<Pendulum> yeah, probably
<Pendulum> i'm a lot less worried about the "how" right now
<Pendulum> and more interested in other things people want to have happen
<Pendulum> okay, moving on since I'm getting bored of talking to myself
<Pendulum> :P
<nigelb> heh
<Pendulum> I suspect development goals need to mostly be addressed to TheMuso and ubuntu-accessibility-devel@lists.ubuntu.com
<Pendulum> especially as I'm not sure TheMuso is here
<AlanBell> some stuff around the installer would probably be good to put in for that
<Pendulum> yeah
<Pendulum> okay, we're now running late (mostly because we started late) so does anyone have a problem with moving on?
<Pendulum> okay
<Pendulum> final item on the agenda
<Pendulum> #topic Any Other Business
<meetingology> TOPIC: Any Other Business
<nigelb> We did talk of reports earlier.  Does anyone want to add something to it?
<Pendulum> I do actually have a different AOB thing, but if people want to talk about reports, please speak up!
<Pendulum> anyone?
<Pendulum> nigelb: is there something with it you want to talk about?
<AlanBell> I will add a link to the persona stuff done the other day
<AlanBell> the wiki is being *very* slow right now
<nigelb> Pendulum: none, lets move on
<Pendulum> okay :)
<Pendulum> I want to put out an announcement that if anyone has problems with other Ubuntu teams that are accessibility related, please let me know while they're happening so I can see about mediating what's happening
<Pendulum> I've started hearing stuff that has happened where accessibility concerns have been dismissed by Ubuntu teams and I do want to see if things can get figured out so they work for everyone
<Pendulum> but if I don't hear about it until after it happens, I can't do anything!
<TheMuso> Sorry guys, totally forgot there was a meeting.
<Pendulum> TheMuso: no worries :)
<Pendulum> TheMuso: do you want to do a "what happened during Maverick" for devel update?
<TheMuso> There is not much to say. My priorities have been elsewhere, so other than updating the pieces of the stack as well as I can, thats about it.
<Pendulum> *nods*
<Pendulum> TheMuso: I've pretty much told people who have things they're interested in in terms of devel to e-mail the accessibility devel list
<TheMuso> Been doing a little bit of vinux work in my own time, but I haven't done so for a while. Other personal interests have taken up my own time.
<TheMuso> Pendulum: Thanks.
<Pendulum> okay. 
<Pendulum> Does anyone have anything else for the meeting?
<Pendulum> going once
<Pendulum> going twice
<Pendulum> #endmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting ended Wed Sep 15 22:26:16 2010 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/AlanBell . (v 0.1.4)
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://mootbot.libertus.co.uk/ubuntu-accessibility/2010/ubuntu-accessibility.2010-09-15-21.17.moin.txt
<maco> TheMuso: is it still the case that webkit is a failwhale for screenreaders?
<maco> i recall that being a complaint about the software center
<Pendulum> okay. i'm heading out y'all. catch you later!
<AlanBell> maco: not only that, it is now part of the installer
<maco> AlanBell: uh oh
<TheMuso> maco: Yes, and AlanBell is correct.
<AlanBell> night all o/
<TheMuso> maco: Been like that since lucid. All we can do is wait for webkit a11y to catch up. We may consider disabling the slide show in the future if accessibility is enabled...
<TheMuso> If webkit is still not ready.
#ubuntu-accessibility 2010-09-16
<qu|x> hi all
#ubuntu-accessibility 2010-09-17
<charlie-tca> jono: can you check out what is happening in #ubuntu-meeting?
<charlie-tca> two people trolling in spanish; no ops around 
#ubuntu-accessibility 2010-09-18
<AlanBell> anyone want to try out the Ubuntu font who hasn't got it? https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Ubuntu%20Font%20Family#Howto
<qu|x> AlanBell: thanks for interested think :)
<charlie-tca> Pendulum: made a few more wiki changes. I guess you should tell us if you hate it...
#ubuntu-accessibility 2010-09-19
<AlanBell> http://behindthecurtain.us/2010/06/12/my-first-week-with-the-iphone/
#ubuntu-accessibility 2011-09-12
<DelphiWorld> Hey !
<DelphiWorld> highvoltage: 480V? :)
<highvoltage> DelphiWorld: not on monday mornings :p
#ubuntu-accessibility 2011-09-14
<phillw> AlanBell: if you are about, can you check and see what happened to meetingology bot on ##sii-general? It used to be there & we have a meeting coming up :)
#ubuntu-accessibility 2011-09-16
<AlanBell> I made a little video of using Unity in Oneiric with Orca http://people.ubuntu.com/~alanbell/unityorca.ogv not great.
<AlanBell> phillw: wasn't michealh running that instance of the bot?
<phillw> AlanBell: I lose track of who is running what bot! AFAIK, michealH runs SIIBot, I'm not sure which bot it is based on. DE is 'sonic-bot'.
<AlanBell> I know he had one running the meetingology code
<AlanBell> ubiquity installer has improved a bit
<AlanBell> now reads out percentages as you go through
<AlanBell> I am going to reccomend that people install when connected to the internet because then it can guess timezone and keyboard layout which is really hard to change with orca
<AlanBell> heh, orca just told me the install was at 101%
<AlanBell> now 272%!!!
<Pendulum> that's one thurough installation
<AlanBell> orca has a pronounciation dictionary somewhere
<AlanBell> we could teach it how to pronounce oneiric which would make the installer sound a bit better
<AlanBell> oneiric == oh nairic
<AlanBell> ubuntu == oo bun too
<phillw> AlanBell: seems I mistakingly used my master email account instead of my ubuntu.com one. It seems to have gone through okay :)
<AlanBell> what has?
<phillw> the mail to ubuntu-uk :)
<AlanBell> ok
<apinheiro> AlanBell, I have branches for Unity here:
<apinheiro> https://code.launchpad.net/~apinheiro
<apinheiro> they provide a11y support for dash and quicklists
<apinheiro> unfourtunately, I was not able to finish them before code freeze
<apinheiro> :/
<apinheiro> so they will be unlikely on the Oneiric release
<apinheiro> I need to think on a alternative, in order to be tested
<apinheiro> something like a ppa 
<AlanBell> unity-3d?
<apinheiro> AlanBell, yes
<AlanBell> cool
<apinheiro> are you talking about unity-2d?
<AlanBell> well I did a test from the live CD earlier with unity-2d, I am currently installing so I can get the 3d drivers working
<apinheiro> ok, 
<AlanBell> reboot time :)
<apinheiro> again, sorry for not being fast enough for release time
<apinheiro> and now lunch time
 * AlanBell observes a lack of orca running :/
<AlanBell> oh, we are defaulting to 2d when installing with orca
<AlanBell> and 3d is invisible to orca :(
<AlanBell> I wonder if we can distro patch the pronunciation of Ubuntu and Oneiric
<AlanBell> apinheiro: any idea where we could prepopulate the orca pronounciation dictionary?
<apinheiro> AlanBell, no, sorry
#ubuntu-accessibility 2011-09-17
<TheMuso> AlanBell: I could likely patch in the correct pronounciation.
<TheMuso> AlanBell: However I think the pronounciation of Ubuntu is correct. Its not bunt, it boont i.e oo boontu
<AlanBell> we can run some it past sabdfl :)
<AlanBell> oneiric is certainly wrong
 * AlanBell watches the Nelson Mandella video again
<AlanBell> trying to get it to say ocelot right as well
<AlanBell> spd-say  "ossselot" maybe
<AlanBell> TheMuso: I think spd-say  "ubuntu oh nairic ossselot" is about right, but I will ask more people when the Americas wake up
<TheMuso> ok
<TheMuso> AlanBell: And yeah unity-2d is default for screen reader profile as more of unity-2d is accessible atm, and its only the quicklists that are left, which is coming.
<TheMuso> i.e the dash is accessible, with a few issues, that are also going to be fixed for oneiric final.
<AlanBell> is it going to read out application names rather than just "button"
<TheMuso> In the dash? Yes it will, thats a bug that I reported a while back.
<AlanBell> great
<AlanBell> TheMuso: bug 852583
<ubot2`> Launchpad bug 852583 in gnome-orca "Orca does not pronounce "Oneiric Ocelot" very well" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/852583
<leoquant> hi AlanBell thanks very much for using your bot, for almost 1 year now. it was very a great and handy tool for mwanzo. we made our own meetingbot now, so you could disable meetingology in the #ubuntu-nl-mwanzo
<leoquant> channel
<leoquant> again many thanks!
<AlanBell> should be gone now leoquant, glad it was useful there
#ubuntu-accessibility 2011-09-18
<joanie> Hey guys. I'm trying to reproduce some Orca+Ubuntu bugs that were reported upstream. 
<joanie> For one I need to be able to choose GNOME Fallback Session
<joanie> I don't see that option in my installed Oneiric
<joanie> What am I doing wrong?
<charlie-tca> have to install gnome-shell to have gnome fallback session in Oneiric. It was an option in 11.04, but in Oneiric, fallback is Unity2d
<joanie> charlie-tca: thanks! That option I have. /me wanders back to room with Oneiric and tries again
<charlie-tca> and yes, they have made it more difficult for all of us trying to work these bugs.
<charlie-tca> :)
<joanie> well, I think either the user is confused or the live CD has different options
<joanie> I'll NEEDINFO the upstream bug
<charlie-tca> It has been a confusing cycle or two
 * joanie nods
<joanie> May we all have a better cycle next :-)
<joanie> or win the lottery and move to tropical islands. either one will do at this point.
<Pendulum> joanie: or both
<joanie> +1 Pendulum 
<joanie> or a machine in which we can stop time and fix a11y bugs before the toolkits change again ;-)
<charlie-tca> Now there's real wishful thinking!
<Pendulum> I expect to win the lotto first
<Pendulum> and I don't play
<TheMuso> joanie: You want gnome-session-fallback, I think thats the package name.
<joanie> TheMuso: Aha. Thanks! I shall try that in a bit. I was able to reproduce the problem in Rawhide.
#ubuntu-accessibility 2012-09-10
<DomasoFan> hi guys. hope you are all doing well today.
