#ubuntu-doc 2005-08-22
<mpt> Flonne: Thanks for your work ... It might be acceptable to alter the packaged XSL such that all documents yelp shows get the same changes made to them. Not sure about that, though.
<mpt> Certainly left-aligning instead of justifying would make things more readable, regardless of the document
<jsgotangco> hey all (whoever is awake)
* robitaille is still awake, but probably not for long...
<jsgotangco> ahhh
<jsgotangco> hmm who is Quim Gil? Name sounds familiar
<Madpilot> hi jsgotangco
<robitaille> jsgotangco: a quick google search turns out references to Guadalinex
<robitaille> so i'm guessing he is involve with that ubuntu derivative
<Madpilot> I've been spending a bit of time playing with this: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BasicCommands  -- I think it's pretty much finished...
<jsgotangco> i see
<jsgotangco> brb
<jsgotangco> grr i forgot i have 2 instances of xchat running
<mdke> nice work on BasicCommands Madpilot 
<mdke> looks great
<jsgotangco> hey mdke 
<mdke> yo
<jsgotangco> whats up?
<mdke> not much, still looking for a fat
<mdke> flat
<jsgotangco> is it that hard in your area?
<mdke> not really, there are lots, but its really expensive in London
<mdke> should have it sorted by tomorrow
<jsgotangco> im sure of that
<jsgotangco> i got my M2 today
<mdke> cool
<jsgotangco> i wasn't charged customs duty but its strange they charged me VAT
<mdke> gah
<mdke> let canonical know and i'm sure they will pick it up
<jsgotangco> yes i had claire on it at the start
<mdke> ah good
<mdke> ok i have to shoot out
<mdke> see ya later
<jsgotangco> see ya
<mpt> We were supposed to be having a meeting now?
<mpt> August 17, 2005 at 14UTC
<Burgundavia> we already finish meeting?
<jjesse> dang did we have a meeting today?
<mpt> If it was a meeting, it was a very, very, very quiet one
<Burgundavia> hmm, the Calendar says so
<mgalvin> where does it say we had a meeting today?
<mgalvin> in launchpad?
<mpt> Jerome's message to the list
<mgalvin> hm, must have missed that, i didn't get it... will check archive
<Burgundavia> grumble, it is 7am here
<Burgundavia> and I had to bike to my brothers place to get internet because my landlord forgot to pay
<mpt> August 11th
<Burgundavia> we agreed to have a special meeting about the front page of yelp today
<mgalvin> we did that quick meeting on Aug 11, b/c a bunch of people were around all at the same time
<mgalvin> oh right, ok i see it
<mgalvin> it was never added to the meeting agenda page
<mgalvin> how else is around?
<mgalvin> ping all
<mgalvin> s/how/who/
<mgalvin> i am sure we can start discussing it more (since you guys went to the trouble of being here on time) and just mail the list about it
<mdke> everyone forgot the meeting I guess
<mgalvin> seems that way... well me, mpt Bergundavia, mdke, and jjesse are here surely we can being discussing it and move it to the list later
<jjesse> go for it :)
<mdke> ok
<mdke> move to #ubuntu-meeting?
<mgalvin> yup
<Burgundavia> 513 emails
<mdke> short and sweet
<mdke> i'll see you later
<mpt> oh, you held the meeting anyway?
<mpt> I should have been paying more attention :-)
<mpt> sorry
<Burgundavia> no problem
<Burgundavia> we pretty much decided to ship the faqguide as default
<Burgundavia> mpt, how is Ubuntu help going?
<mpt> pretty well
<mpt> It should be in a shippable state well before doc string freeze, I think
<Burgundavia> I currently don't have internet at hom (I am at my brother place), so I have not been able to look at it yet
<jjesse> Burgundavia: grin i only have dial up at home :(
<mpt> The major holes in it are things for which I need to install Breezy, which I'll do over the next couple of days
<mpt> :( doesn't look like a grin :-)
<Burgundavia> jjesse, my landlord forgot to pay. I usually have really nice high-speed. One of the advantages of living in one of the most wired countries in the world
<mpt> and things for which there seem to be no docs at all, e.g. "how to copy files from your Ubuntu machine to a Windows machine"
<jjesse> high speed is currently not in the budget
<Burgundavia> jjesse, where do you live?
<mpt> oh yeah, and "how to connect with a dialup modem" :-)
<jjesse> michigan
<Burgundavia> ah
<jjesse> its either comcrap cable, sbc, or tds metrowait
<jjesse> they all suck and the phone lines in the house i bough suck more 
<rob^> hey
<rob^> dam I must have missed the meeting
<mpt> Everybody did :-)
<rob^> was it moved?
<rob^> my daughter is sick and is in hospital, so its been a hectic few days for me
<mpt> I was here at 1400, went back to work at 1430 after nothing had happened, and it started after that
<mpt> How is she?
<rob^> pretty sick, she is on antibiotics via a drip
<rob^> they thing meningitis
<rob^> think ^
<mpt> that's not good
<rob^> I haven't slepted in two days..
<mpt> Meningitis is epidemic in NZ at the moment
<rob^> yeah, we had a lot of people at work from over seas including NZ lately
<fl> hi there
<rob^> hey
<fl> nice, it's so, so, how should I say this, silent :-)
<rob^> hmm the sun is comming up..
<fl> well, my Sun is shutting down right now. At least the small one.
* fl types power-off
<fl> just wanted to take a quick peep at who hanging out here... have a nice day!
<rob^> my Suns run 24/7
<fl> I'll try to have something about the powerbook install later the week
<fl> hmm, the small SPARCstation Voyager can shutdown for the night. The other ones keep running...
<fl> hehe
<rob^> we have a couple of Sun Ultra Enterprise 3000s
<fl> they are cool, but pretty loud under a desk
<rob^> sharing a  SPARC array
<rob^> yeah, they are in a seperate room
<fl> I'm still hanging on to the Voyager, and some old 10s and a 20
<fl> just so nice for the desktop
<fl> tough sometimes they seem to be creeping along when compiling stuff. sigh.
<rob^> never been one to use Sun for a desktop machine
<rob^> I know a guy who is a Sun nut who does
<rob^> too expensive
<fl> oh well, question of availability. Mine had a 20'' monitor at times when the PC standard in the office was 14''. Go figure...
<rob^> yeah
<rob^> lucky you
<rob^> I'm looking at a 20'' crt now, they are big suckers
<fl> hehe. _And_ the Win admin didn't dare touch it lest he broke things :-)
<rob^> heh the one where I work does
<rob^> I had to teach him how to use vi the other day
<fl> touch things or break things?
<rob^> he broke my carefully crafted system checking scripts
<rob^> so more of the latter
<fl> hmm. sounds like "fingers off or fingers off"
<rob^> heh yeah
<rob^> at least hes keen to learn
<rob^> rather funny watching him try to use vi I must say
<fl> that's something. Lots of people just lack curiosity...
<fl> tell him about the vi mug :-)
<rob^> :) yeah
<fl> that's something nice to get someone started
<rob^> maybe we might all chip in for one for a christmas present
<fl> ok, so I'll leave you now. Moon's up, wife's been calling
<rob^> yeah, I better get some sleep 
<fl> see you, rob^
<rob^> cya 
#ubuntu-doc 2005-08-23
<Madpilot> anyone here? just found this --> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UpgradingToFirefox10  <-- thru Cleanup; it's badly out of date. Any opjections to just deleting it outright?
<mgalvin> eww, delete it
<mgalvin> that gotta be from warty... security updates have already brought ff 1.0.6 into warty
<Madpilot> it's not linked to from anywhere, so into the trash with it!
<Madpilot> and... it's gone.
<Madpilot> one Cleanup item down, 175 to go! ;)
<Flonne> mpt_, http://hamsterx.homelinux.org/~rhx/ubuntu-help-formatting addresses some of your requests.
<Flonne> Let me know if you want me to change anything else, or if you want help writing/editing anything.
<jsgotangco> hi
<Madpilot> hi
<jsgotangco> jdub, can i be on planet too?
<jdub> jsgotangco: sure, send me your rss feed
<mdke> morning
<jsgotangco> hi
<highvoltage> hi jsgotangco and mdke 
<mdke> lo
<Madpilot> hi all
<highvoltage> mdke: lo 127.0.0.1
<mdke> jsgotangco, any luck on styleguide?
<jsgotangco> i havent started playing with the script yet i was too busy with edubuntu
<jsgotangco> i will try later or just mail jeff
<mdke> fair enough
<mdke> i think mailing jeff is the best
<jsgotangco> im about to burn colony 3 anytime now and install on the M2
<mdke> ah cool
<mdke> i'll mail the list about the pdf for styleguide
<mdke> Sean will know something about it no doubt
<jsgotangco> hmm nautilus cd burning won't let me select the burn speed heh
<jsgotangco> ahhh lifeless maintains it
<mdke> jeffsch, heya
<jeffsch> howdy
<mdke> let's sort out the styleguide thing while we're both here :)
<jeffsch> okie doke
<mdke> i was thinking you would add a "make all" target to the styleguide makefile, rather than the gnome one
<mdke> cos the styleguide is not really a gnome doc, am i right?
<jeffsch> i was thinking of getting rid of the styleguide makefile
<mdke> oh
<jeffsch> even though it's not a gnome doc,
<mdke> whichever you prefer
<mdke> right now I have the server calling the styleguide makefile and copying the stuff to root/styleguide
<jeffsch> it would be easier to have it in the gnome makefile, no?
<mdke> no problem for me
<jeffsch> ok. that leaves the pdf problem
<mdke> i think the address should be doc.ubuntu.com/styleguide though, rather than doc.ubuntu.com/gnome/styleguide
<jeffsch> that make sense
<mdke> so if you get it building to build/styleguide that will be fine
<jeffsch> hmmm... it does already, i thought
<mdke> certainly the make html from styleguide/makefile does
<mdke> ok so the pdf problem
<mdke> is it not possible to get the pdf built without java/fop?
<jeffsch> yeah, i just tested it. in ubuntu-doc/gnome, make sg puts the files in ubuntu-doc/build/styleguide
<jeffsch> yes, it is possible to build the style guide without fop
<jeffsch> docbook2pdf, in the docbook-utils package
<mdke> so can we use that?
<jeffsch> sure, no problem.
<jeffsch> the styleguide pdf (in theory, anyway) only gets built once per release, so i never paid much attention to it in the make files
<mdke> jeffsch, if you're still here, sorry about that: fuse blew
<jeffsch> wow. i had no idea you were angry!
<jeffsch> hehe
<mdke> ;)
<mdke> lost all plugs
<mdke> all well now
<jeffsch> the other day, somebody complained about the state of their power grid. I thought to myself "hehe, my power hasn't gone down for over a year"
<jeffsch> two hours later. bam!. no power. 
<jeffsch> that'll learn me :)
* mdke nods
<mdke> did i miss anything?
<jeffsch> nope
<mdke> ok the last question was, can we use the docbook-utils thing for the styleguide pdf?
<jeffsch> ah wait, i lied about you missing something... hold on...
<jeffsch> [11:53]  <jeffsch> sure, no problem
<jeffsch> [11:54]  <jeffsch> the styleguide pdf (in theory, anyway) only gets built once per release, so i never paid much attention to it in the make files
<jeffsch> [12:12]  <-- mdke has left this server. (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
<mdke> good point
<mdke> ok maybe just build it yourself and commit it, I'll copy it to the server?
<jeffsch> ok, I'll stick into the build/styleguide directory
<mdke> ok
<mdke> the html is already there
<mdke> (on the server)
<jeffsch> wait. how about I mail it to you? if I put into the build/styleguide directory, it will get deleted during the next make all
<mdke> put it in styleguide/
<mdke> or is it big?
<mdke> tbh I think it's worth having in the repo so people can read it
<mdke> jeffsch, what do you think?
<jeffsch> ok, i will put it in styleguide/. it's less than 45k
<mdke> cool
<mdke> bing me when you have and I'll copy it over
<jeffsch> i just committed it now
<jeffsch> rev 1609
<mdke> done
<mdke> http://65.19.178.132/styleguide/
<mdke> nice work man
<jeffsch> so, we can adjust the projects page to point to this stuff now?
<mdke> hmm
<mdke> still waiting on a domain name
<jeffsch> ah
<mdke> gnome/ and kde/ have been there for ages, they build daily
<mdke> just haven't got a domain name so haven't adjusted the projects page
<jeffsch> yeah, best to wait for the domain name
#ubuntu-doc 2005-08-24
<Madpilot> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LocalSpellingWords  <-- anyone have a clue what the heck this is? It looks like garbage to me...
<mgalvin> i think it has to do with the wikis spell checking ability, but i don't know if this page is relevant anymore
<Madpilot> ah. Didn't even know the wiki had a spellchecker!
<mgalvin> i would ask the list about this one
<Madpilot> will do. it's about time I made my first post to the doclist anyway!
<jsgotangco> hi
<rob^> dam a colony 3 install takes a long time..
<judax> Hi all
<rob^> hey
<highvoltage> hi
<jsgotangco> highvoltage: ping?
<highvoltage> jsgotangco: pong
<jsgotangco> highvoltage: are you updating the troubleshooting guide?
<highvoltage> jsgotangco: yes, it's about 25% between version 1 and version 2.
<highvoltage> there will also be a tuxlab administration guide.
<highvoltage> soon :)
<jsgotangco> hmm ok i wil leave out on the troubleshooting guide for now and polish the other docs
<jsgotangco> but we will definitely need it for edubuntu
<highvoltage> yes, the tuxlab setup is a bit different from edubuntu. i'm going to try to get as much of the tuxlab setup in edubuntu as possible, but i'm sure we'll make a plan around the documentation.
<highvoltage> jsgotangco: what's your local time there? perhaps we can talk about it tonight. i'm at work now (morning here)
<jsgotangco> ok becuase its going to be our centerpiece for sure
<jsgotangco> i'm in +8 so its only 3pm now
<jsgotangco> but its a friday i can stay up late
<highvoltage> ok. I'm in +2, so by the time it's tonight here, it will be this morning there :)
<highvoltage> no, sorry, i'm confused, you're in +8, not -8 :)
<highvoltage> ok see you tonight then.
<jsgotangco> yeah its not that much so we'll still manage to talk later
<highvoltage> jsgotangco: where are you located? i thought you were in the US?
<jsgotangco> no i'm in Manila now
<jsgotangco> although I did grew up in the US
<jsgotangco> brb
<mdke> rob^, around?
<rob^> yep
<rob^> whats up?
<mdke> rob^, i have been thinking about doing some reviewing, i noticed that many sections of the faqguide are marked finished, does that mean no review is needed?
<rob^> they are leftovers from before I took over
<mdke> ah
<rob^> I'll let the mailing list know when its ready
<mdke> ready for review?
<mdke> that would be great
<rob^> yes
<mdke> thanks, will you update the status then?
<rob^> what are we using for the status?
<mdke> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocteamWork
<rob^> yep
<mdke> status report for the faqguide is here: http://65.19.178.132/gnome/status/faq-report.html
<rob^> I'm going through the guide now checking for accuracy, one I'm done it should be ready for review
<mdke> ok great, thanks
<mdke> just looking at the structure
<rob^> what do you think?
<mdke> looks good
<mdke> i would say games are applications though
<Madpilot> rob^: is the completed FAQ going to have a longer Introduction than just the one line Abstract it's got now?
<rob^> mdke, yeah, I've been tossing up how to do this
<mdke> i like the structure in general though
<rob^> Madpilot, not at this stage..
<rob^> Madpilot, what did you have in mind?
<mdke> i don't really like the tips and tricks being a separate section, but i guess it would be too difficult to merge it into the other structure
<rob^> the tips and tricks section is also a leftover from ubuntuguide.org
<rob^> I'll take a look at it
<Madpilot> rob^: I was just thinking that a short Intro might be a bit more new-user-friendly than the revision table, ToC & Abstract.
<rob^> This document is a compilation of questions that are commonly asked by users who are new to Ubuntu and the answers to these questions.
<rob^> thats what we have now
<rob^> Madpilot, if you want to rewrite it go ahead, I can add it for you if your not sure about docbook
<Madpilot> rob^: haven't ever touched docbook - how about just a couple of lines at the head of the Preface? "Welcome to Ubuntu, etc etc"
<Madpilot> I'll get some ideas together tomorrow - it's late here now - and post to the doc list
<rob^> well, seeing at it will be the first page Yelp will open, I can't see why not
<rob^> ok sounds good
<Madpilot> good - I'll get something to doc-list tomorrow. 
<Madpilot> need sleep - night, all
<rob^> cya
<mdke> rob^, something occurred to me if you're still here
<mdke> rob^, i was thinking that you could mark some bits of the guide for review already, if there are some appropriate sections, it doesn't have to be all released for review at the same time
<mdke> that's why we have the review, writing, finished distinctions
<mgalvin> hi all
<highvoltage> hi mgalvin 
<jsgotangco> hi mdke
<mpt> hi jsgotangco, any luck with baz?
<mdke> hello
* mpt had baz crash on him on Wednesday, causing half a day's lost work
<jsgotangco> mpt: no luck at all
<mdke> mpt, how do you intend to publish UbuntuHelp?
<jsgotangco> mdke: i don't think it'll be ready for breezy
<mdke> jsgotangco, mpt said yesterday that it would
<mdke> or the day before
<mdke> perhaps I misunderstood though
<jsgotangco> given its state, im not so optimistic, its really nice though
<mpt> Well, to be honest, I have no idea how packaging works
<mdke> mpt, so you intend to publish it in the distribution?
<mpt> but I think the writing should be finished by September
<mpt> Well, I'd like it to go in, yes
<mdke> mpt, where would you put it?
<jsgotangco> i'd really like the team to get involved in Ubuntu Help
<jsgotangco> so in my mind, Breezy +1 is a good target for it
<jsgotangco> but its mpt's call
<mpt> As in, where in the filesystem, or where repository-wise, or where in the yelp taxonomy, or what?
<mdke> mpt, the last one
<mdke> how would the user access it
<mpt> Well, ideally as shown in https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LaunchpadIntegration?action=AttachFile&do=get&target=system-help-menu.jpg :-)
<mpt> but I guess both the distro people and the rest of the docs team may have other ideas
<mdke> yeah that would cause a conflict with the documentation team stuff
<jsgotangco> mpt: i'd really like to defer it for breezy +1
<mdke> because our stuff would also appear there ;)
<jsgotangco> we can write a better spec for it for sure
<mdke> well if the doc is gonna be released with breezy, we should sort that issue out early to avoid any uglyness over whose docs appear where
<mpt> mmm, I should finish https://wiki.launchpad.canonical.com/LaunchpadIntegrationHelpPage
<mdke> that picture misses out the "System" menu
<mpt> hehe, no it doesn't
<mpt> The System menu is the one with the Ubuntu logo :-)
<mpt> (More wishful thinking on my part)
<mdke> ah
<jsgotangco> you've changed gnome
<mdke> yeah i don't like that particular idea ;)
<jsgotangco> ubuntu is supposed to integrate what is available, not change it
<mpt> Who decides "supposed"?
<mpt> Ubuntu's menus are already different from vanilla Gnome
<mpt> (the "Places" menu in particular)
<mdke> the places menu is in vanilla gnome afaik
<jsgotangco> well ok it may have some differences from plain gnome but changing it totally is not in sync with gnome's vision of a unified look and feel irregardless of platform
<mdke> heh
<mpt> "vision of a unified look and feel irregardless of platform"?
<mpt> Wow, that brings back memories
<mpt> Netscape circa 1999
<jsgotangco> ok so its a 90s thing
<mpt> hmmm, maybe it could be described as such
<mpt> When did Java start? :-)
<mpt> ah, you're right mdke, Places is in Gnome 2.12 at least
<mpt> I thought it had been called "Go" or somesuch
<mpt> http://www.mozilla.org/projects/ui/communicator/framework/screenlayout/
<mpt> yeehaw
<mpt> those were the days, my friends
<mpt> I thought they'd never end
<mpt> ... fortunately they did
<jsgotangco> ok but dont you think its a bit too late to try to include Ubuntu Help in Breezy?
<jsgotangco> brb
#ubuntu-doc 2005-08-25
<judax> :0
<judax> :)
<judax> sorry, just playing
<jsgotangco> hey all
<Madpilot> hi
<rob^> hey
<rob^> what do people think about gnome-app-install?
<jsgotangco> what about it?
<rob^> well, its ok, but one can't install all applications available
<rob^> which is a problem as the FAQ Guide is written with Synaptic in mind
<jsgotangco> hmmm its much more comprehensive in colony 3
<jsgotangco> but not as complete with synaptic
<rob^> yeah, thats what I'm looking at
<rob^> for instance, it doesn't have ssh
<rob^> or openssh
<jsgotangco> its mostly desktop apps yes?
<rob^> yes
<jsgotangco> you can probably include it, but say that its mostly desktop apps and that synaptic is more comprehensive 
<rob^> I find it kind of stupid that it doesn't include all apps ala synaptic
<rob^> and the design of it is shocking
<jsgotangco> well it was developed with a gnome mindset for sure
<rob^> they should have taken synaptic and improved it with the icons and stuff instead
<jsgotangco> hmm you can do a request to mvo and probably merge it in the future if its possible
<jsgotangco> after all he maintains synaptic at the moment
<rob^> yeah, maybe I might make a few suggestions
<rob^> its very annoying that all the categories and apps all appear in the same section
<rob^> they should have split it
<rob^> well, I'll check out how many apps gnome-app-install can install
<rob^> hopefully its all of the desktop apps we have
<rob^> then just use apt-get for the server stuff
<jsgotangco> any big change in synaptic will affect other distributions for sure :)
<rob^> I don't see the need for both though
<jsgotangco> rob^: does au use an american keyboard or a british one?
<rob^> american
<jsgotangco> ahh
<jsgotangco> brb
<jsgotangco> hi all anyone awake :)
<mvirkkil> Hi all.
<mvirkkil> Been gone a while.
<mvirkkil> Travelling and sick.
#ubuntu-doc 2005-08-26
<rob^> Madpilot, did you end up writing that introduction blurb for the FAQ Guide?
<Madpilot> rob^: it's half done, I'll stick something up to the doc-list in a couple of hours
<rob^> ok cool
<rob^> I'm going to open the FAQ Guide for review in the next few days
<Burgundavia> http://members.home.nl/jeroen-91/ubuntu/breezy-new/
<Burgundavia> I need to work on the quicktour
<Madpilot> cool. Hi, Burgundavia. You have net access again?
<Burgundavia> yes
<Burgundavia> trying to install breezy now
<Burgundavia> first cd I burned didn
<Burgundavia> 't boot, 2nd freezes at install
<Madpilot> md5sums are your friends
<rob^> or you can just use the verify thing on the cd
<Burgundavia> the iso I downloaded is md5 correct
<rob^> been a bit of talk about it lately on -devel mailing list
<Burgundavia> so the next Ubuntu conference is in Montreal
<Madpilot> http://ars.userfriendly.org/cartoons/?id=20050814
<Burgundavia> those are really gnome bounties
<Madpilot> what, including the atomic wedgie one? ;)
<Burgundavia> all the others
<Burgundavia> I wish
<Burgundavia> rob^, for the text editing stuff, I recommend alt-f2 to get run applications and then gksudo gedcit
<rob^> most of the time people are in the terminal anyway
<rob^> i just used a regex to replace vim with gedit
<Burgundavia> but if you are launching a gui app, might as well make it fully gui
<rob^> yeah, it neither here nor there though
<Burgundavia> both are a total hack
<rob^> yep
<rob^> I'm gonna release it for review shortly
<rob^> bbl
<rob^> Madpilot, whats your full name?
<mdke> rob^, you know that you don't have to release the whole thing for review at the same time, you can just mark the relevant sections "review" when you think the writing has finished. if sections need more writing you can mark them "help" and people will be able to help out
<rob^> thats just it, the thing is just about finished
<rob^> and ready for review
<rob^> the only thing I am waiting for is a small introduction paragraph from Madpilot 
<mdke> ok if you want to do it like that
<rob^> once I start marking things for review, what happens?
<mdke> all sections should be marked as to what stage they are, so that people can see what needs doing, and contribute
<mdke> i've been wanting to do some doc work for a while, so when some sections are marked for review, I will start doing some reviewing
<mdke> when a section has been reviewed, it is marked as "finished" and when the whole document is finished, it is ready for release
<rob^> they are all ready as far as I can see
<rob^> cool
<mdke> great
<mdke> sooner you mark em, sooner we can help
<Burgundavia> morning rob^ 
<Burgundavia> morning robitaille even (bloody nick completion)
<robitaille> yeah...these long nicks are a killer if someone else has a shorter nick :)
<Burgundavia> robitaille, do you REJECT or DISCARD spam on -ca?
<robitaille> Burgundavia:  I think I tend to discard. But I have no idea what is the difference between the two.
<jsgotangco> Burgundavia: i see you have a job again
<highvoltage> channel has been quiet. how are things in ubuntu-doc-world?
#ubuntu-doc 2005-08-27
<Burgundavia> highvoltage, jerome is knee-deep in edubuntu stuff
<Burgundavia> highvoltage, rob^ and mgalvin are working on the faqguide
<Burgundavia> highvoltage, and I will be working on the quicktour tomorrow
<Burgundavia> mdke, is there much difference between the two T43's
<Burgundavia> jdub, hey
<Madpilot> hi all
<Madpilot> rob^: you around?
<Burgundavia> jdub, I specifically asked for a UI freeze for us because the theme changed at the last minute in Hoary
<jdub> the engine won't be changing
<Burgundavia> but the look might
<Burgundavia> all I care about is for screenshots
<jdub> in large part, it won't
<jdub> ui freeze doesn't cover artwork
<Burgundavia> oh
<jdub> but in general, the basic building blocks are set
<Burgundavia> that was my understanding
<Burgundavia> 29th probably wont give us enough time to take all the screenshots that might have changed for all translations
<Burgundavia> I thought we had a month for the translators to do that
<jdub> the engine won't change
<Burgundavia> but the look will
<jdub> that doesn't mean anything
<Burgundavia> yes it does
<jdub> dude
<jdub> the gtk theme won't change
<jdub> the metacity theme may change
<jdub> (but i doubt it)
<Burgundavia> jdub, I hear you. in my screenshooters hat, I am saying, I don't care about what actaully changes
<jdub> most of it will be nailed down before the 29th
<Burgundavia> I am merely saying that that the 29th is probably too late for us
<jdub> yes, you do care about what actually changes
<jdub> because the majority of screenshots you can take without caring
<Burgundavia> sorry, bad wording
<jdub> there are very few screenshots that should include:
<jdub> - background
<jdub> - application / file manager icons
<jdub> - splash screen (none, really)
<jdub> - usplash (none, really)
<jdub> etc.
<Burgundavia> ouch
<Burgundavia> I totally misunderstood UI freeze
<Burgundavia> I thought it meant that the UI was not going to change, period
<Burgundavia> the look and the code was set
<jdub> no
<jdub> the UI will not change
<jdub> the artwork may
<Burgundavia> yes, I thought UI included both
<jdub> but if you listen, you'll understand that the majority of screenshot subjects *won't* change
<Burgundavia> someone still needs to sort through and figure out
<Burgundavia> jdub, is humility going to be default?
<jdub> undecided
<Madpilot> don't you mean "Human" for a theme?
<Madpilot> or has that name changed too?
<jdub> Madpilot: it will be called human, yes
<Burgundavia> jdub, to be honest, I am deeply scared that we are going to repeat the Hoary mess. The theme changed at the last minute at made all of our screenshots look terrible
<Burgundavia> hence why we asked for  UI freeze
<jdub> if we switch to the SVG theme as late as artwork freeze date, then there will only be very few screenshots you need to redo
<Burgundavia> yes, but we have to find them first
<jdub> it's not hard, dude
<jdub> if it's a full screen shot, or involves the file manager or panel menus, that'll change
<Burgundavia> gah
<Burgundavia> I just think we need a bit more certainty in this
<jdub> there should be very few of those in ubuntu documentation
<jdub> certainty:
<Burgundavia> we have 3 docs on the plan for release:
<jdub> the widget theme will not change from now
<Burgundavia> faqguide, quicktour, and edubuntu cookbook
<jdub> the metacity theme is wildly unlikely to change from now
<Burgundavia> jdub, I understand that the widget set will not change
<Burgundavia> I totally understand all the various parts, etc.
<Burgundavia> what I am saying is that the screenshot doesn't care what changes, if *one* thing in a screenshot changes, we need to reshot it
<Burgundavia> and so do all the translators
<jdub> then i don't think you really understand at all
<jdub> the two artwork items that will affect the vast majority of screenshots are the gtk+ and metacity themes
<Burgundavia> yes
<jdub> those are enormously unlikely to change
<jdub> thus, most of your screenshots, from UI freeze, will not have to be reshot
<Burgundavia> a metacity theme change like we had in Hoary would be a total disaster
<jdub> the metacity theme didn't change in hoary
<jdub> the gtk+ theme did
<Burgundavia> ok
<jdub> but complaining about what happened in hoary is irrelevant
<jdub> as above, the only one that may change is the metacity theme, and even that is vastly unlikely
<Burgundavia> I realize that
<jdub> from that, we have:
<jdub> - possible icon theme change
<jdub> - definite background change
<jdub> both of which impact only a small number of screenshots
<Burgundavia> jdub, I accept your reassurance but will reserve judgement until I see the actual changes
<jdub> perhaps it would be wise to take the above on board and look at which screenshots will be effected
<Burgundavia> I will parse through the faqguide tomorrow
<Burgundavia> I also plan to write most of the quicktour tomorrow
<jdub> if any involve panel menus or are full screen shots unnecessarily, they can be zapped
<Burgundavia> a quick parse of the quicktour as it exists shows that about 1/4 would have to replaced with an icon theme change
<Burgundavia> morning jsgotangco 
<jsgotangco> hi!
<Burgundavia> I have a free day tomorrow to actually write!
<jsgotangco> lol how is your new job?
<Burgundavia> quicktour should be mostly done by tomorrow this time
<Burgundavia> tiring but still interesting
<jsgotangco> i'm sorry if i haven't devoted that much time for the quick tour
<jsgotangco> i am trying to divide my time between commits and real life
<Burgundavia> np
<Burgundavia> I had no free time last week either
<Burgundavia> only able to install Colony 3 last night
<jsgotangco> i was trying to do a small article similar to the gnome preview for breezy
<jsgotangco> my M2 doesn't like Ubuntu one bit
<Burgundavia> ouch
<Burgundavia> mine even hibernates now!
<jsgotangco> either that or it just dislikes X.org
<jsgotangco> mine does too
<jsgotangco> even brightness works
<jsgotangco> most of the function keys are useless though
<Burgundavia> tosh seesm to have a bunch crazy 3rd party utils
<Burgundavia> most of them are crap
<jsgotangco> X still has a lot of issues from Colony 3, even the scroll wheel of a usb mouse doesnt work
<Burgundavia> my docking station is mostly useless
<Burgundavia> power works through it but not much else
<jsgotangco> wow you have a doc?
<jsgotangco> i must admit though, this M2 beside me is really nice for a windows laptop
<Burgundavia> I even have atheros inside
<Burgundavia> so I can get my wireless working easily
<jsgotangco> jeezz how big is that machine
<Burgundavia> 4.9 pounds
<Burgundavia> 15" screen
<jsgotangco> im not sure what mine uses but wireless works out of the box
<Burgundavia> think you have atheros as well
<jsgotangco> widescreen?
<Burgundavia> yes, 1280x768
<jsgotangco> crap
<jsgotangco> that's a multimedia hound
<Burgundavia> it was even detected correctly in Hoary and Breezy
<Burgundavia> and sound was as well
<jsgotangco> do you have a good sound system or a generic one?
<jsgotangco> mine is basically a business model
<Burgundavia> basic, mine is also a business model
<jsgotangco> did you experience having your screen all fuzzy and garbled in hoary at default?
<jsgotangco> mine does, it only works on 800x600 should I file a bug for it? the thing works in breezy at 1024
<Burgundavia> nope
<Burgundavia> I got lucky with my laptop
<jsgotangco> nice..mine is starting to be a PITA
* Burgundavia needs to send another email around to clarify things
<jsgotangco> (its so light though)
<jsgotangco> Burgundavia, you forgot something on the template
<jsgotangco> Frequency Scaling
<Burgundavia> and lid close
<Burgundavia> email me
<jsgotangco> ok
<jsgotangco> ubuntu-laptop list doesn't seem to be working yet
<Burgundavia> you missed the fun on #ubuntu-laptop
<jsgotangco> what happened?
<jsgotangco> you don't want mjg59 to get pissed
<jsgotangco> haha
<Burgundavia> sad, actually
<jsgotangco> does he have an idea that sarge uses our X?
<Burgundavia> no idea
<jsgotangco> we hae the most beautiful X in the world at the moment
<Burgundavia> the newest
<Burgundavia> the only one even close is Gentoo
<jsgotangco> the clarity in breezy is outstanding
<Burgundavia> jsgotangco, I also learned somethign I don't like today
<jsgotangco> what is that?
<Burgundavia> jsgotangco, UI freeze is not the end of all changes to look
<jsgotangco> @%!$^
<Burgundavia> that is the artwork freeze, which is Sept 29th
<jsgotangco> holy crap what does that make us then
<Burgundavia> jdub and I had a discussion about it
<Burgundavia> we disagreed on what it meant
<jsgotangco> we're going to end up making notes and disclaimers that our frozen docs are not the final ones
<Burgundavia> I looked at the quicktour
<Burgundavia> if the icon set changes (which it might), we will need to reshoot about 1/4 of the stuff
<Burgundavia> anything further is going to suck more
<Burgundavia> I thought you raised this at UDU (not blaming you)
<jsgotangco> I did
<jdub> jsgotangco: Burgundavia is making a big deal about very little
<jsgotangco> it is something that can be workable given our time
<Burgundavia> we will see how it flows
<jsgotangco> even at the start all our docs have disclaimers on such if i remember correctly
<jsgotangco> but a properly written doc have very little use of graphics to make a statement IMO
<jsgotangco> its still the same instructions
<Burgundavia> yes, the strings shouldn't have to change
<Burgundavia> the UI is not to shift
<Burgundavia> so mostly it is just a communications things
<Burgundavia> we need to get the word out to the translators and then get those screenshots back in
<jsgotangco> i'm sure there won't be any radical changes in the UI/Artwork that generally borks our work
<nickrud> Burgundavia, I couldn't resist having the only aptitude page :)
<Burgundavia> nickrud, was that you? nicely written stuff
<Burgundavia> is it linked from User Documentation?
<jsgotangco> ?
<nickrud> It's from memory, mostly. I lost nearly all my history when I just moved.
<nickrud> I've also been working on the voodoo3 page :)
<Burgundavia> might be nice to have the best practices stuff on UserDocumentation
<Burgundavia> and secondary stuff on a catchall page
<Burgundavia> so we would have 2 links instead of 30
<Burgundavia> for each section
<nickrud> I have no problem with that; synaptic is gone, I guess, so, what's for the nearly competent like myself :)
<Burgundavia> problem is that we have too many ways to doing it
<Burgundavia> synaptic sucks but gnome-app-install has some nasty corner issues
<Burgundavia> like codecs
<nickrud> I've looked at the faq that just got published; maybe somewhere in that
<nickrud> and I've not used gnome-app-install, so have no comment
<Madpilot> I was wondering about this new app-install thing and stuff like codecs - why wasn't Synaptic just polished instead?
<Burgundavia> because synaptic sucks and is in C
<Burgundavia> python is much faster to code in
<Burgundavia> and synaptic is very powerful
<nickrud> all the search things I look for were in synaptic, but I don't python.
<Burgundavia> g-a-i is a very nice program
<Madpilot> but if stuff like codecs aren't going to be in app-install - because they have no need for a .desktop file - ppl are going to be using Synaptic anyway, or the CLI...
<Burgundavia> I was thinking about that
<Burgundavia> you can create a .desktop file that doesn't add anything to the menu
<Burgundavia> thus add .desktop files to all the codec packages
<nickrud> have to look, I guess, it's breezy :)
<Madpilot> a desktop-less .desktop file? interesting...
<nickrud> g-a-i only does things with a .desktop?
<nickrud> so, l~g~sgnome is still useful :)
<Madpilot> nickrud: that's what I was reading - I don't run Breezy myself
<Burgundavia> g-a-i is for end users
<Burgundavia> our parents and siblings
<Madpilot> end users need codecs, though
<Burgundavia> (excepting my sibling)
<nickrud> and aptitude is what we use to keep those end users happy.
<Burgundavia> yes they do, that is why these corner cases need to be solved
<Burgundavia> g-a-i is far from a finished product
<Madpilot> isn't aptitude a CLI thing? alternate to apt-get?
<Burgundavia> yes
<Madpilot> so... Synaptic is being depreciated in favour of an app (g-a-i) that won't have everything Syn does, and a return to the CLI? seems like a step backward
<Burgundavia> no
<nickrud> not necessarily,
<Burgundavia> synaptic is not going anywhere for breezy
<Burgundavia> I expect to see it disappear from the default instlal for +1 or +2
<Burgundavia> as g-a-i fills in the holes
<nickrud> so, will etch ever be a basis for ubuntu ;D
<Burgundavia> no
<nickrud> oh
<Burgundavia> ubuntu is based on sid, which is newer than etch
<nickrud> ?
<nickrud> next sid freeze, etch is.
<Burgundavia> sid is unstable, etch is testing (the next stable)
<Burgundavia> packages go from experimental --> sid (unstalbe) --> etch (testing)
<Burgundavia> and then etch gets released
<Burgundavia> and we get a new testing
<Burgundavia> sid is rolling
<nickrud> sid breaks my toys, he's done it before. Breezy is meaner :)
<jsgotangco> we always use sid
<jsgotangco> hmm toshiba has this transparent network config thingy that gets washed away in a white background in windows :)
<Burgundavia> and the stupid custom default control panel that gets launched with the toshiba assist button
<Madpilot> jsgotangco: a triumph of graphical design & UI design! ;)  </sarcasm>
<Burgundavia> jsgotangco, you need to email me about whatever I missed on the laptop page
<nickrud> So, a serious question. I've been looking for an actual place to contribute, and working with docs seems useful
<Madpilot> nickrud: there's always wiki stuff that needs editing!
<rob^> owwww my butt hurts so much!
<jsgotangco> Burgundavia, you or the list?
<Burgundavia> jsgotangco, me
<jsgotangco> ok
<Burgundavia> jsgotangco, I am going to compile a list and send it around
<rob^> stupid weak desk at work
<jsgotangco> what's the use of the Pause/Break key?
<Burgundavia> for old dos apps
<Burgundavia> the stop the output flow so you could read it
<jsgotangco> you forgot to add if parallel port works
<jsgotangco> Burgundavia, sent
<Burgundavia> jsgotangco, cheers
<Burgundavia> robitaille, are you still up or is this an autoconnect?
<jsgotangco> i'll move to the M2
<jsgotangco> i'm tired of playing with windows already
<robitaille> I'm up.  I had to reboot from Hoary to Breezy to test something. And once again experiencing multiple gnome-panels crashes....
<jsgotangco> Madpilot, cheers to your first email :)
<Burgundavia> fun
<Burgundavia> don't think I will shut down my machine tonight
<jsgotangco> has anyone experienced stage 2 hanging at 91%
<Burgundavia> I had to burn 3 discs before I got one that installed
<jsgotangco> did you do integrity check?
<Madpilot> jsgotangco: got that already? cool
<jsgotangco> our list is quite fast
<Burgundavia> ok that was wierd
<Burgundavia> I got the email from jdub replying to the email about Avahi before I got the original email
<jsgotangco> that's really fast
<Madpilot> I've gotten u-doc email out of order as well, actually
<Madpilot> gets very confusing - I barely know what's going on at the best of times! ;)
<Burgundavia> gmail actually threaded that one correctly
<Burgundavia> it is the gnome mail servers, they are wierd right now
<jsgotangco> what gnome list are you in?
<Burgundavia> desktop-devel, nautilus, multimedia, muine
<jsgotangco> gnome-marketing is fun
<Burgundavia> oh and that too
<Burgundavia> and doc and doc-utils
<robitaille> how many lists are you on Burgundavia?  Just the ubuntu ones are overwehelming me...
<Burgundavia> robitaille, I just unsubscribed from the bugzilla, that was killing me
<Burgundavia> aside from that, the 3 biggest are inkscape-devel, desktop-devel and ubuntu-devel
<Burgundavia> I am subscribed but don't follow -users
<robitaille> I quickly scanned the bugzilla list on a daily basis;  I have been back into doing more bug triage in recent days in both bugzilla and malone.
<Burgundavia> probably 25
<robitaille> I have nearly stopped follwoing -users and #ubuntu; just too much high-volume, and too much noice.
<jsgotangco> i haven't done anything in malone yet
<robitaille> Malone is getting nicer every day.
<Burgundavia> yes
<Burgundavia> the other thing I totally neglect is the Canadian loco team. No time for that
<Burgundavia> oh, wallace and gromit film!! http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/in_pictures/4167392.stm
<jsgotangco> i keep getting confused on the # and British pound key
<Madpilot> just did a significant cleanup of this - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/AptitudeSurvivalGuide - it matches the conventions of BasicCommands now
<Burgundavia> the # is also called a pound on the telephone, just to be confusing
<Burgundavia> Madpilot,  looks good
<Madpilot> thanks
<Madpilot> how much "Canadian localization" do we really need, anyway? Perhaps, "Welcome to Ubuntu, eh?" :)
<Burgundavia> loco teams are also marketing teams
<Burgundavia> Madpilot, my crazy inuktitut idea
<jsgotangco> is that your gift to Nunavut
<jsgotangco> heh
<Burgundavia> ya
<Madpilot> right, got it. There's no reason the Inuktitut idea won't work, you just need to convince a couple of governments of that!
<Burgundavia> this is looking sweet --> https://launchpad.net/products/bazaar
<Burgundavia> I understand a lot of legwork has already been done
<jsgotangco> yeah baz rocks
<jsgotangco> till i segfault
<jsgotangco> i must malone it
<Burgundavia> no, the launchpad page
<jsgotangco> ohh
<Burgundavia> but yes, baz rocks
<robitaille> Madpilot: and convince the local people that they need Linux :)
<Burgundavia> give them free computers with edubuntu and inuktitut
<jsgotangco> how about the fonts?
<Burgundavia> every school in Nunavut
<Burgundavia> several exist
<Burgundavia> mandrake has one
<jsgotangco> GPL'ed?
<jsgotangco> even LGPL would do
<Burgundavia> unknown about DFSG-free or not
<robitaille> Burgundavia:  yeah...I have been using bazaar-ng for a while at work; works great
<Burgundavia> robitaille, just you?
<jsgotangco> bzr already?
<robitaille> Burgundavia:  just me;  I use it to track changes in some code of mine
<Burgundavia> cool
<Burgundavia> bzr is going to be baz2 and be ready by April 2006
<jsgotangco> yeah
<Burgundavia> in time from Breezy+1
<robitaille> but it's usable now (at least for my needs)
<jsgotangco> baz would be ready in a few weeks
<Burgundavia> jsgotangco, do you follow daily crack or what is in breezy?
<Burgundavia> vote dammit --> http://www.tuxmagazine.com/node/1000007
<jsgotangco> not really i don't have that much stuff to break in the first place
<jsgotangco> Burgundavia, does your A5 connect to an AP via Gnome?
<Burgundavia> never tried it yet
<Burgundavia> going to try tomorrow
<robitaille> Burgundavia:  the current numbers for that vote are probably the real numbers.
<jsgotangco> mine doesn't connect at setup at all
<jsgotangco> it got detected as eth0
<jsgotangco> do people actually live in nunavut?
<Burgundavia> jsgotangco, yes
<Burgundavia> robitaille, huh?
<Burgundavia> about 30k --> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nunavut
<jsgotangco> jeezz
<jsgotangco> just for the canucks out there, I am seriously thinking of moving to Victoria
<Burgundavia> sweet
<robitaille> Burgundavia:  30% gnome, 50% KDE...sounds about right
<Burgundavia> robitaille, for an online survey, sure
<robitaille> Burgundavia:  do you have better numbers?
<Madpilot> jsgotangco: cool
<Burgundavia> robitaille, I don't trust online surveys
<Burgundavia> too easy to stack
<robitaille> jsgotangco:  at this rate, forget the Canadian loco team, let's create a Victoria Loco team
<Burgundavia> we already have 3
<Madpilot> robitaille: only *after* we actually manage to meet in person! ;)
<jsgotangco> hah
<Burgundavia> robitaille, tux magazine is also heavily pro-KDE
<robitaille> yeah yeah...it will happen one day.  maybe we should plan a bug night or something
<jsgotangco> yeah tux magazine is so Linspire
<Burgundavia> http://mail.gnome.org/archives/marketing-list/2005-May/msg00087.html
<robitaille> Burgundavia:  numbers I had heard before were 50%-66% KDE
<Madpilot> robitaille: beer, pizza & laptops? (I don't have a laptop, but I've got a good house to host stuff in right now!)
<robitaille> at work we are a KDE/Mandriva shop...I'm probably the only gnome person around
<Burgundavia> http://mail.gnome.org/archives/marketing-list/2005-August/msg00098.html
<jsgotangco> hmm they haven't thought of cutting you in half yet
<jsgotangco> robitaille, same with my last employer they are very heavy into Qt
<jsgotangco> i felt so alone that I decided not to continue my contract
<jsgotangco> well its not just about it anyways :)
<HrdwrBoB> hehe
<Burgundavia> jsgotangco, have you found a new job yet?
<robitaille> in our case, it's simply that that sysadmin like Mandrake.  (but he has been trying Kubuntu at home this weekend...)
<jsgotangco> no I'm still open at the moment
<robitaille> Madpilot:  yeah, sounds good. Has too be after 8pm for me...after kids go to bed :)
<jsgotangco> my birthday is soon hopefully i get a new one
<HrdwrBoB> argh KDE
<Burgundavia> thursday night this week?
<Madpilot> robitaille: I can do that, tend to be a nightowl anyway... and Burgundavia appears to thrive on very little sleep... ;)
<Burgundavia> just need to check my work schedule before I completely commit to that
<jsgotangco> what do you do there?
<Madpilot> cool. I'll even drag the router upstairs so ppl can connect without unplugging my box
<Madpilot> (no wireless here... )
<Burgundavia> hmm
<Burgundavia> no internet for me then
<Burgundavia> my wireless works in ubuntu, but not my wired
<Burgundavia> strange reversal
<Madpilot> that's exactly the opposite of the standard complaint over on #ubuntu...
<Burgundavia> I got lucky with atheros and unlucky with some new gigabit nic
<robitaille> Madpilot: hopefully  my laptop will be in town soon.  it should be any days now.
<jsgotangco> mine is just good for Windows
<jsgotangco> nothing works 
<jsgotangco> even hoary is horribly borked
<robitaille> jsgotangco:  I'm afraid mine will be similar.  A google search for my model type turns out very minimal (and unsuccesful) results.  At least windows will work will I will in bug reports and play around with it.
<jsgotangco> mine is only good for playing games
<jsgotangco> it has an attitude of not wanting to reboot in Ubuntu
<jsgotangco> so i had to pull out the battery every now and then during an install/reboot
<Burgundavia> hmm, googling for linux tecra a5 gives me nothing useful but \sh's blog
<Burgundavia> and some RH4/5 install stories
<Burgundavia> on other tecras
<jsgotangco> yeah
<jsgotangco> not really that useful
<Burgundavia> http://www.vgcomputing.com.au/nstoshibaPTA50A-02D00D.html
<Burgundavia> sweet
<jsgotangco> i will probably try Fedora on this later and see if I get the same result
<jsgotangco> im not convinced that its an Ubuntu issue on mine
<jsgotangco> hmm maybe i should do it in sarge instead
<Burgundavia> ok this is just sad http://www.vgcomputing.com.au/nslinuxcomp.html
<Burgundavia> see what they rate as excellent
<jsgotangco> Suspend/Resume functionally not working
<jsgotangco> lol
<Madpilot> that's a pretty low definition of "excellent" - ouch
<jsgotangco> i would remove suspend/resume
<HrdwrBoB> http://www.tuxmagazine.com/node/1000004
<HrdwrBoB> hahahaha
<HrdwrBoB> ase closed on tuxmagazine
<HrdwrBoB> case
<HrdwrBoB> ubuntu isn't even on that list
<Burgundavia> they had a new poll
<Burgundavia> that listed it as Kubuntu/Ubuntu
<Burgundavia> very odd way to do it
<Burgundavia> but they closed that one
<jsgotangco> they are better off being titled as Linspire magazine
<HrdwrBoB> nor is MEPIS
<HrdwrBoB> ? I got to that via their front page
<HrdwrBoB> oh, bizarre
<Burgundavia> jsgotangco, this page explains why what I got was radically different from what I thought I was getting --> http://www.networkworld.com/weblogs/cool/2005/009222.html
<Burgundavia> there are 2 versions
<jsgotangco> do you have a british keyboard?
<Burgundavia> no
<jsgotangco> arrghh
<Burgundavia> no, 2 very very differnet models
<HrdwrBoB> ahhh
<HrdwrBoB> yeah different
<Burgundavia> under the same name
<jsgotangco> hmmm
<Burgundavia> very very dumb marketing
<jsgotangco> thats stupid
<HrdwrBoB> I bought an X40 today for $AU1050
<Madpilot> Toshiba got too lazy to invent a second name?
<Burgundavia> I guess so
<jsgotangco> the A5 i saw here wasn't widescreen either
<jsgotangco> HrdwrBoB, looks reasonable
<Burgundavia> they are both the same size I think
<Burgundavia> should probably move my wiki page
<Burgundavia> ok, page moved
<Madpilot> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuTitle  <-- that's cool
<Burgundavia> already installed it
<Burgundavia> quite nice
<Madpilot> the world needs more good Free fonts
<Burgundavia> indeed
<Burgundavia> the advantage with free is that the body is never getting smaller
<jsgotangco> Burgundavia, your A5 has a US  keyboard?
<Burgundavia> no, UK
<Burgundavia> ouch laptop memory is not cheap
<mdke> Burgundavia, afaik not much, the wifi card is different at least. Other than that I have no idea
<jsgotangco> hmmm
<jsgotangco> i wanna cry
<mdke> hey jsgotangco 
<jsgotangco> even doing an iwconfig eth0 essid "ap" won't work
<jsgotangco> hi
<jsgotangco> and im still in hoary
<mdke> what's the error?
<jsgotangco> it won't associate with the AP
<mdke> yes, but what error? look in dmesg
<jsgotangco> hmm let me check if i turn off the kill switch
<Burgundavia> mdke, ok. I just discovered that there are at least 5 or 6 versions of the a5
<mdke> heh
<Burgundavia> at they are completely different
<Burgundavia> processor, video card, wifi card, etc.
<mdke> :(
<mdke> bad naming conventions obviously
<Burgundavia> I am glad I have this version
<Burgundavia> the other has an intel chipset wireless
<jsgotangco> hmm
<mdke> i think mine does
<jsgotangco> maybe that's my problem
<mdke> it is ipw2200
<jsgotangco> hmm
<jsgotangco> it should work on mine then
<jsgotangco> but it didn't see the AP from the start
<mdke> jsgotangco, have you tried setting the channel manually?
<jsgotangco> i haven't ill compare the setting on the other laptop
<jsgotangco> i did try to force essid and access point on iwconfig
<mdke> try the channel too
<jsgotangco> wireless should work even if it was named eth0?
<Burgundavia> yes
<Burgundavia> only the madwifi stuff sets it as ath and if you wired isn't working, then it will take the first slot
<jsgotangco> my wired is eth1
<Burgundavia> there was some issues with that
<Burgundavia> interfaces switching back and forth with names
<Burgundavia> might be resolved now
<jsgotangco> shouldn't forcing the essid work?
<jsgotangco> how do i force it from "unassociated" to IEEE 802.11b?
<mdke> you can't force it to associate ;)
<jsgotangco> heh
<jsgotangco> it doesn't work
<mdke> jsgotangco, has it ever worked?
<jsgotangco> no
<jsgotangco> although its detected
<mdke> because on hoary, mine only worked when I switched it on, if I took it down again, it would never go back up
<jsgotangco> does yours have a kill switch?
<mdke> it has a hotkey for it
<jsgotangco> dmesg says that i have to turn off the kill switch
<mdke> hmm
<mdke> if I were you i'd install breezy :)
<jsgotangco> breezy is PITA more
<mdke> oh dear
<jsgotangco> stage 2 doesn't even finish
<mdke> bad cd?
<jsgotangco> so i have a messed up GDM
<jsgotangco> no
<jsgotangco> i've burned 5 of them and tested on another machine
<mdke> worked ok here
<mdke> damn
<jsgotangco> reboot doesn't work on breezy
<jsgotangco> hmm dmesg says the kill switch is on, but its already turned off
<jsgotangco> my unit has a lot of windows niceties
<Burgundavia> hmm, the totem-moz plugin die for anybody else?
<jsgotangco> lol the hoary setup wants the kill switch to be turned on
<mdke> do either of you guys know the file I have to edit to enable suspend to ram?
<Burgundavia> hmm, epiphany still sucks
<Burgundavia> too bad
<jsgotangco> hmm i have an Intel Pro/Wireless 2200BG
<jsgotangco> this should work *groan*
<nickrud> I was just about to go to bed, but: epiphany sucks?
<Burgundavia> I find it so
<Burgundavia> needs some polish
<nickrud> ah, we'll have to have this talk later :)
* Madpilot smells a holy war brewing, and ducks
<Burgundavia> I would love to use, but not yet
<Burgundavia> they are making great strides
<nickrud> just give me a plugin that 'saves ths group of tabs as a a category', and I'll be happy
<Madpilot> http://www.gnome-look.org/content/show.php?content=28038&PHPSESSID=1e6669a95537e2c58495cd7fee13caab  <-- pretty cool
<Madpilot> nickrud: you mean "save sessions"? Opera does that...
<Burgundavia> epip also does it
<Madpilot> doesn't Firefox?
<Burgundavia> no
<nickrud> yeah, but I do like the way epiphany searches the bookmarks and history as you type
<Burgundavia> that is cool
<nickrud> but the single hierarchy in the bookmark editor kinda sucks
<Madpilot> Epiph doesn't allow folders in the bookmark file?
<nickrud> anyway, my workday starts about 3 hours from now. 
<nickrud> Madpilot, no, just one level of aggregation.
<Madpilot> sleep might be a good idea
<nickrud> And, it's gonna be a busy day. good night :)
<Madpilot> only one level? yikes. I go three layers deep in parts of my Opera bkmrk file...
<Madpilot> g'night, all
<rob^> night
<carthik> hello - a quick question - can someone give me an estimate of the number of man hours a document like the adminguide will take to be created?
<Madpilot> "more than you think"?
<Madpilot> ;)
<Burgundavia> 50 or 60?
<Burgundavia> the quicktour has already taken me around 15
<carthik> 50 or 60 hours for the whole admin guide?
<carthik> I am trying to estimate how much time would be required to write a guide myself
<carthik> not related to ubuntu - for another OS project...
<Burgundavia> yes
<Burgundavia> to write test and edit, probably around that
<carthik> thanks guys
<Burgundavia> np
<Madpilot> "more than you think" sounds about right, then...
<Burgundavia> yes, lots more than you think
#ubuntu-doc 2005-08-28
<jsgotangco> i thought breezy had serpentine?
<Madpilot> thought I saw something in one of the promo things - doesn't it?
* Madpilot is still safely running Hoary...
<Burgundavia> it does
<jsgotangco> where is it?
<jsgotangco> or is it invoked when putting a blank disc?
<Burgundavia> sound and video
<jsgotangco> there's no serpentine here in colony 3
<Burgundavia> just a sec
* Madpilot goes back to swearing at amazingly crappy HTML...
<Burgundavia> jsgotangco, you are correct
<jsgotangco> putting a blank disc asks you if you want to burn an audio/photo or data cd
<jsgotangco> audio does nothing
<Burgundavia> it is a bug
<jsgotangco> photo does nothing too
<jsgotangco> data opens up nautilus burner
<Burgundavia> just chatting with mdz now
<mdke> morning all
<Burgundavia> morning
<jsgotangco> hi
<jsgotangco> i should buy a usb wlan stick and see if its just breezy that has an itch
<rob^> got a laptop? load breezy, take it into the store and plug it in.
<jsgotangco> rob^, i've tried 2 cards already nothing worked
<rob^> ouch, I hope you didn't pay for them
<jsgotangco> nope
<jsgotangco> they work fine in my other laptop
<rob^> have you tried http://www.linuxhardware.net?
<rob^> maybe you'll need to recompile your kernel to include the right drivers
<jsgotangco> recompiling isn't part of the scope of the testing :)
<rob^> do they have a list of ones that do work?
<jsgotangco> prism and atheros generally work
<rob^> tried em?
<jsgotangco> i have 2 prism cards
<jsgotangco> they all work in hoary except on the M2
<Burgundavia> likely a PCMCIA bug
<jsgotangco> Burgundavia, likely
<jsgotangco> Burgundavia, but i have an Intel Pro/Wireless it should also work out of the box
<Burgundavia> yes
<rob^> hey, would anyone recommend dnsmasq over bind for dns caching only server?
<jsgotangco> Burgundavia, it doesn't
<Burgundavia> rob^, they were talking about dmsmasq for network-manager
<rob^> oh?
<rob^> so everyone one has proper dns set up?
<Burgundavia> decided to back that out in favour of keeping bind9
<rob^> ah
<Burgundavia> no idea, talk to j^
<jsgotangco> Burgundavia, did you start on Quick Tour already?
<rob^> I just want something lightweight
<Burgundavia> jsgotangco, only on the wiki
<jsgotangco> I'll be editing About Ubuntu later to reflect the changes on Firefox and OOo
<Burgundavia> jsgotangco, going to put it in SVN tomorrow
<mdke> that diablo guy owns #ubuntu-laptop? jeez
<mdke> he needs to hand that over
<Burgundavia> we are probably going to have to yank it our from him
<Burgundavia> which looks bad for us
<rob^> I'm sure lilo will be happy to do it
<rob^> I asked him to do something similar once
<mdke> why does it look bad for us?
<mdke> get it done asap, the guy is a menace
<Burgundavia> because he is quite loud and vocal
<Burgundavia> and well spread the word wide
<mdke> np
<rob^> I wouldn't worry about him
<rob^> let the ops deal with it
<rob^> he should have known better
<mdke> yes
<Burgundavia> he already left -devel in a huff
<Burgundavia> and bitched about daniels in -laptop, which got him kicked by mjg59
<rob^>  /ignore
<jsgotangco> rob^, i'm not really worried a bit on the unit not working at all, after all, laptop testing hasn't really formally started yet
<Burgundavia> jsgotangco, actually, I think it has
<Burgundavia> jsgotangco, we have a colony and a laptop
<rob^> yep, still though it should work if its listed as such
<jsgotangco> we still don't get emails from ubuntu-laptop
<Burgundavia> but I don't expect much from this relesae
<Burgundavia> breezy+1 is where they are going to work us hard
<jsgotangco> yeah
<Burgundavia> but already mjg59 is doing amazing work
<jsgotangco> indeed
<mdke> ah there is a mailing list
<jsgotangco> i see a lot of tosh utils in dmesg
<mdke> the testers should have been subscribed to that
<jsgotangco> mdke, we've been subscribed explicitly
<Burgundavia> doesn't exist yet
<mdke> i just saw it in lists.
<jsgotangco> i tried to join it 2 days ago and it said i was already subscribed
<Burgundavia> lid close, card readers. Anything else I missed from the template?
<jsgotangco> there's just nothing on it yet
<jsgotangco> Burgundavia, lid close meaning sleep?
<jsgotangco> it only shuts down the lcd for me
<Burgundavia> yes
<Burgundavia> a sane comment on osnews --> http://osnews.com/permalink.php?news_id=11635&comment_id=21597
<rob^> yay running your own dns rocks!
<Burgundavia> night
<jjesse> monring
#ubuntu-doc 2006-08-21
<nixternal> hiya jjesse_
<Madpilot> hi all
<nixternal> hiya Madpilot
<Burgundavia> hey Madpilot
<Madpilot> hi nixternal & Burgundavia 
<Madpilot> Burgundavia, you still @ Ubucon?
<Burgundavia> nope. home
<Madpilot> ah, cool. wb ;)
<Burgundavia> tired
<CArenas2> hello all
<CArenas2> am trying to figure out how to edit my wikiname in ubuntu wiki
<CArenas2> is not in camelcase, although it is on launchpad
<Madpilot> CArenas2, are there two capital letters next to each other in your wikiname?
<CArenas2> no
<CArenas2> it currently shows up as Carlosarenas
<CArenas2> where it should be CarlosArenas (which is how it shows up in launchpad)
<nixternal> create a CarlosArenas, copy the old page over, and if you want just put a redirect to the new page ;)
<nixternal> or delete the old page...speaking of which i need to do for myself
<CArenas2> but there is no Carlosarenas page
<CArenas2> how do i redirect?
<nixternal> im sorry..i jumped in, sipped the kool-aid and don't even know the flavor...are you trying to create a wiki page?
<CArenas2> nixternal: LOL
<nixternal> nm..you have CarlosArenas already ;)
<CArenas2> correct
<nixternal> im a moron right now ;)
<CArenas2> no worries
<nixternal> im in edgy hell on my other system
<CArenas2> yikes :-/
<CArenas2> i have the wiki page... but my account states "Carlosarenas"
<CArenas2> and i don't see where i can edit that
<nixternal> oh...in launchpad?
<nixternal> easy fix
<CArenas2> no
<CArenas2> launchpad is correct
<CArenas2> that works fine
<CArenas2> i mean in the ubuntu wiki
<nixternal> ahhhh i see i see for once
<CArenas2> wait
<CArenas2> i just fixed it, thank you
<nixternal> hehe
<CArenas2> i had not actually tried to edit it in launchpad
<CArenas2> which i just did, when you started "easy fix"
<CArenas2> thx for the inspiration :-D
<nixternal> hehe
<nixternal> np
<CArenas2> and good luck getting outta edgy hell
<nixternal> im on my way right now, thanks ;)
<mdke> nixternal, mvirkkil, pong
<nixternal> whats up bud
<mdke> nothing, just responding to your ping
<nixternal> oh...i know..i pinged ya ;)   Phil Bull, the status of his patch for the Kubuntu SFW Guide, I think is why I paged ya
<mdke> nixternal: what do you want to know exactly?
<nixternal> were you waiting for jjesse to look it over? Phil was wondering the status earlier
<nixternal> if it was going to be uploaded, or wait for further review
<mdke> no, I just haven't had time to look at it: I was away over the weekend
<nixternal> cool, have a good weekend?
<mdke> yes thanks
<nixternal> arg, that means it is monday already ;(
<Plug> It's been Monday for 19 hours here!
<nixternal> hehe
<nixternal> only 2 hours here
<nixternal> oh, the other thing, is there anything specific that needs to be worked on first for docs before the freeze?
<mdke> everything really, hardly any work has been done on docs in this cycle
<nixternal> ok, i will start going through some Kubuntu docs this week, as I start back at the uni, and my first 3 classes are no-brainers, so that is 3 hours of classtime i have to work on docs
<jono> hi all
<mdke> hi jono
<jono> I have been running through the gpg registration process to become an ubuntu member, and it would be useful to have a document details how to get through the gpg stuff
<jono> the launchpad process tells you how to submit the key, but stops when it comes to decrypting it in different clients
<jono> I was wondering you guys fancy knocking up a page which kiko can then link to from Launchpafd
<jono> Launchpad
<mdke> jono: it should be covered in https://help.ubuntu.com/community/GnuPrivacyGuardHowto, although I haven't looked in detail
<jono> ahhh great :)
<jono> I was just looking at ways to reduce any obstacles to contribution at that early stage
<jono> that doc should help quite a bit, passed it onto kiko :)
<mdke> well, signing the code of conduct isn't a precursor to contribution
<mdke> although some teams require it before being given access to things like repositories and so on
<joachim-n> hi
<jono> sure
<joachim-n> does anyone know a good way to say "language" in a way that means perl/html and not french/german? This is in the gedit manual, I want to speak of the language fo a document
<mdke> it's not a condition of membership either, afaik
<jono> kiko would prefer that content on help.launchpad.net, would someone be OK to port it over - I would do it myself, but I have a meeting
<jono> mdke, its a condition of membership to sign the CoC
<mdke> jono: you can do that with a pen though
<jono> without a pen?
<mdke> there are people without pens?
<jono> oh with a pen :P
<jono> oops
<jono> haha
<mdke> I signed my code of conduct with a pen before becoming a member
<jono> now it says on the page to sign a CoC "To sign the Code of Conduct, you must first register your openPGP keys."
<mdke> to sign it in launchpad, yeah
<jono> hmm, I don't think is particularly clear
<mdke> not generally though. It's appropriate for many people to use the pen because a signature by pgp without the key being in the strong set is not acceptable for membership
<jono> right
<mdke> so for most people signing in launchpad doesn't help much
<jono> sure
<nixternal> mdke: i should have a recent workup of the Kubuntu 6.10 Release Notes here pretty soon, i will post to the list for further review, and I will make sure to let you know it will need further work as we go along
<nixternal> mdke: release notes has a section at the bottom "<title>Contributing and Giving Back</title>", should I create a link to the page lloydinho did, or to a document that is being created?
<nixternal> hiya jsgotangco
<jsgotangco> hey!
<jsgotangco> i just arrived from holiday
<nixternal> where did you go?
<jsgotangco> folks arrived from chicago, went back home down south for a few days, we had a long weekend (holiday today)
<jsgotangco> no net access even :)
<nixternal> hehe...thats cool
<lloydinho> nixternal, the plan is that the Contribute doc also should cover Kubuntu and the other derivatives. If there is any specific Kubuntu information in the Giving Back section, please check if it is included in the Contribute doc.
<nixternal> i really dont' think the "contribute" portion should be DE specific do you?  I mean, I help everything, even though on a Kubuntu junky ;)
<nixternal> the kurrent "HelpingKubuntu" section on the wiki == ewwww
<nixternal> truthfully, i would rather use the doco you created, as it is way way way way better ;)
<lloydinho> nixternal, hey - thanks. I agree. Having one point of reference for all of the Ubuntu community would be the best solution.
<nixternal> and you created it ;)
<lloydinho> heh.. actually, I just put together all the stuff that was already there.
<nixternal> you are planning on turning that into .xml correct?
<nixternal> so it can get uploaded into edgy?
<lloydinho> well, hopefully the wiki-2-docbook export will work well.
<lloydinho> There is already a version of it in the SVN repository.
<nixternal> oh..well then i will link to it instead
<nixternal> as i am sure it will be making it's way into the help stream
<lloydinho> cool
<nixternal> kubuntu dapper release notes fixed...and added new info to kubuntu edgy release notes ;)
* nixternal looks for more kubuntu docs to attack
<mdke> nixternal: did lloydinho answer your question earlier?
<nixternal> about the linking?
<nixternal> actually...is that alright to link tot he wiki doco he created?  or should i look at linking to the .xml doco instead for contributing?
<mdke> if kubuntu is going to ship the xml doc, best to link to that, yes
<mdke> depending on how you are going to publish the release notes
<nixternal> im guessing they will get published the way they have in the past
<nixternal> i at least laid down a decent little footprint to work off of now for kubuntu on that note
<nixternal> is it up to you, or JR about adding that extra xml doc?
<mdke> jjesse, I guess. I don't see why it wouldn't be added
<mdke> I don't know how kubuntu releasenotes are published, the ubuntu ones for dapper have been published on the wiki and -announce by email (i.e. not in the distribution)
<nixternal> hmm..ya, there are release notes in the distro
<Riddell> nixternal: hmm?
<Riddell> nixternal: how ready are the edgy docs to package?
<nixternal> not ready
<Riddell> as in are they at least in sync with daper and s/dapper/edgy/
<nixternal> well they are in sync with dapper yes
<nixternal> edgy not yet
<nixternal> im going to work this week on fixing that though
<mdke> Riddell: in fact, dapper is not yet in sync with our repository, there are lots of new translations that I don't think have been uploaded yet
<mdke> as for edgy, best to wait for a while
<Riddell> nixternal: you're the man
<nixternal> why thank you, but it is all mr. east ^^ oh and Hobbsee with a pointy stick
<mdke> nixternal: if you fancy doing a new patch with the changes Riddell has suggested, I'll upload it
<nixternal> i can do that
* nixternal gets to work
<Riddell> can't nixternal get an svn account?
<Riddell> or we could just be sensible and change to bzr, it really is very good these days
<mdke> Riddell: bzr, we've discussed it and rejected it for now, and svn account, if you and jjesse are happy that nixternal is submitting well written material, I can ask for him to have an account, I can already vouch for his ability with svn and docbook
<Riddell> was it rejected or did the discussion just reach an end?
<mdke> Riddell: well, both really
<Riddell> with the bzr checkout modes and launchpad hosting any objections I remember should be fixed
<mdke> I don't mind seeing some more discussion, I haven't really used bzr yet so can't comment much
<Riddell> my personal reasoning is that I've completely lost my svn password :)
<mdke> elmo can get that back for ya :)
<mdke> Riddell: will you take a look at branches/dapper and test/upload the updates?
<Riddell> mdke: sure, added to my TODO list
<mdke> thanks
<mdke> Riddell: I merged some changes I saw in the archives that weren't in the repo, and added my own changelog entry 
<mdke> hopefully i did it right
<Riddell> thanks
<mdke> nixternal: btw you can use the entities for version numbers, if you happen to be working on that now
<nixternal> hehe, you've got mail
<mdke> &distro-rev; will get you "6.10"
<nixternal> Kubuntu &distro-rev;
<mdke> that's it
<mdke> nice
<mdke> nixternal: thanks for that. There is only one section, "Introduction". Can I change that to make "What's New", "Hardware Recommendations" etc into top level sections?
<nixternal> sure
<nixternal> there will be more added to that as we go along and add more "edgy" stuff im sure..or as items get updated prior to final release
<mdke> ok, I'll do that
<mdke> once I've uploaded it, maybe have a look an tell me what you think
<nixternal> no problem..thanks
<mdke> nixternal: done
* nixternal checks it out
<mdke> nixternal: btw, best to keep everything on one thread next time, that way if jjesse or someone comes along later, he doesn't get confused about which patches have been applied and which haven;t
<nixternal> roger that..will do
<nixternal> looks good...thanks for the help there mdke
<mdke> np
<lloydinho> oy, LaserJock !
<LaserJock> hi lloydinho 
<lloydinho> all well?
<lloydinho> I'm at the Ubuntu sprint in Germany, and asked Ian Jackson about the UDR..
<lloydinho> .. he says it's all in your hands now. ;-)
<LaserJock> hehe
<LaserJock> I wish I felt that way
<LaserJock> it's a significant project
<LaserJock> I'd hate to screw it up
<lloydinho> .. is there any problems about the current Debian Diff format that you'd like to get ironed out?
<LaserJock> my biggest problem is looking at maintaining the thing
<LaserJock> in the end I don't think there will be much of the original left
<lloydinho> oh.
<lloydinho> Well, would you prefer to turn to DocBook completely, instead?
<LaserJock> and each time Debian does a new version we will have to dig through the diff and make sure we merge changes
<LaserJock> I would
<LaserJock> as I think Debian will go to DocBook eventually too
<LaserJock> but I asked the maintainer and he said it is on his Todo list to look at it
<lloydinho> Well, Ian said that wouldn't be much of a problem since he has just commented out all the lines that are irrelevant for Ubuntu.
<lloydinho> So the diffs should work okay.
<LaserJock> perhaps
<LaserJock> but I also wonder about translations
<LaserJock> currently Debian has a jp and fr translation that I believe is done by hand
<LaserJock> so as soon as I touch the english version the translation is broken
<lloydinho> oh. Well, we would want our translation done in Rosetta, anyway - wouldn't we?
<lloydinho> It is a new document in that way, so it would be difficult to maintain compatibility with any translations.
<LaserJock> mhm
<LaserJock> personally, I'd rather fork the docbook version of the DDR into an ubuntu-developers-reference package
<LaserJock> but that might be messy, I don't know
<lloydinho> Well, that would require it to be maintained completely separately from the DDR.
<LaserJock> yep
<lloydinho> Either way, I think we should take a decision on the matter.
<LaserJock> yes, yes
<lloydinho> So: Potentially and likely, Debian will go to DocBook as well..
<lloydinho> And: Potentially, and likely, a UDR won't resemble the DDR that much anyway.
<LaserJock> I think so
<lloydinho> Therefore: We should make a DocBook document for everybody to help out editing.
<lloydinho> That will bring us out of the trouble of having to learn Debianish, 
<LaserJock> heh
<lloydinho> but will land us in trouble of having to get all the relevant information out of it and into the new UDR.
<lloydinho> I don't know how easy that would be.
<LaserJock> as Ian has said to me before, it kinda sucks no matter which way you go
<LaserJock> but in a more British way ;-)
<LaserJock> the other thing is if we should work on it in the docteam repo or not
<lloydinho> heh
<lloydinho> why shouldn't we?
<LaserJock> the original spec said clearly that it was supposed to be a developer maintained doc
<lloydinho> oh.
<LaserJock> at the time I don't think any of the doc team people were MOTUs or core-devs
<lloydinho> I don't see any developers too keen on it here, though.
<lloydinho> Has to be MOTUs, I think.
<lloydinho> (well, at least if you want it to happen soon, anyway)
<LaserJock> yes, unfortunately developer documentation is sorely lacking developers 
<lloydinho> :-/
<lloydinho> I would like to have all the documentation managed by the DocTeam. That would make sense to everybody else.
<LaserJock> yes, but what if the doc team has no MOTUs or core-devs in the team?
<lloydinho> But it won't matter if there's nobody to actually write it.
<LaserJock> I would feel bad burdening the doc team with something that is not in their expertise
<lloydinho> eh. Well, obviously there should be MOTUs in the docteam to maintain the developer docs.
<LaserJock> I guess that just means I have to be here forever ;-)
<trappist> LaserJock: well yeah
<LaserJock> well, my involvment in Ubuntu has mushroomed a bit
<lloydinho> LaserJock, don't worry. Sooner or later, someone gulllible will show up. 
<LaserJock> and I find that I can't spend as much time on docs as I would like
<lloydinho> Then you can offload it..
<LaserJock> maintaining both the Packaging Guide and Developer's Reference by myself isn't sustainable
<trappist> I might be qualified at some point - I do spend a fair amount of time playing with packages, making debdiffs and so on
<LaserJock> I can get people to proof-read and stuff like that
<lloydinho> that's true. You should definitely avoid biting off more than you can chew
<LaserJock> but getting people to actually write a section is a different story
<Burgwork> LaserJock, I like whips for that
<LaserJock> I'd like to think that once I get the docs done initially that it wouldn't take too much to maintain them
<LaserJock> Burgwork: yeah, but the only the very busy people like crimsun seem to respond
<trappist> crimsun is a machine
<LaserJock> yes, and I don't think it's a good idea to put more on the busiest people
<LaserJock> anyway, so I'm writing but I'm also looking out for people to delegate to
<lloydinho> no, unfortunately, these are the people who know all the procedures involved
<lloydinho> LaserJock, cool. I think that if you can get a draft up somewhere, it will be a lot easier to get people involved.
<LaserJock> yes, for sure
<lloydinho> And you can find additional maintainers.
<LaserJock> well, I thought that about the packaging guide too
<LaserJock> perhaps I just need to market it better ;-)
<LaserJock> I've gotten lots of feedback from people using it
<lloydinho> Indeed
<lloydinho> It's all about making people aware that you do need help with this.
<LaserJock> but it's a tough sell on the developer end
<LaserJock> ok, so what do you think if I threw a DocBook copy of the DDR in the svn repo?
* LaserJock is feeling a little edgy this morning
<lloydinho> good. It's good to have something in there that people can work from.
<lloydinho> Just so people know it's there.
<lloydinho> Can you apply the available Diff to that as well?
<LaserJock> yeah
<lloydinho> Sweet. Then we can add it to the list of doc team projects, and people can easily find it and offer to help out (well, in theory at least)
<LaserJock> heh
<LaserJock> like one of my favorite quotes: "That's all very well in practice, but will it ever work in theory?"
<lloydinho> ooh. Clever.
<lloydinho> Does it have to?
* lloydinho is in a very "just do it and don't worry about the consequences" mood this evening
<LaserJock> hehe
<lloydinho> woops?
<LaserJock> lloydinho: btw, I think my "Getting Involved with Ubuntu" talk went decently well
<LaserJock> Corey helped out
<lloydinho> LaserJock, oh cool! I completely forgot about the Ubucon!
<LaserJock> the intro to launchpad one was interesting too
<lloydinho> Did a lot of people attend?
<LaserJock> I think there was probably a bit over 60 people at the conference
<lloydinho> nice.
<LaserJock> and between the 2 talks I think I hit most everybody
<LaserJock> mdz and janes showed up
<LaserJock> with t-shirts ;-)
<lloydinho> oh! That's a sure crowdpleaser.
<LaserJock> heh, yeah
<lloydinho> so, when will all of this hit the news stands?
<LaserJock> I feel like the problem with this "contributing" stuff is that it is such and extensive topic that it's virtually impossible to do a decent job of covering everything without totally overwhelming people
<lloydinho> LaserJock, that's probably true
<lloydinho> It's all about making the central part clear
<LaserJock> I got a question like "What is the # in front of #ubuntu?"
<lloydinho> "Make it yours!"
<lloydinho> huh? as in the IRC channel?
<LaserJock> yeah, so then I explained what IRC was quickly
<lloydinho> I hope that the # only appears when in relation to IRC references
<LaserJock> if we try to link people to resources rather than trying to explain *everythin*
<LaserJock> yeah
<lloydinho> (thus hopefully making it obvious to some degree)
<LaserJock> well, there were a couple of people who didn't know what IRC was
<lloydinho> I can't blame them. It's not exactly common knowledge "in the real world"
<LaserJock> yep
<crimsun> imo the Community Manager would be a good point of contact for said people.
<LaserJock> crimsun: you think so? or should there be a team of people for that?
<LaserJock> there has been stuff like Live Support
<lloydinho> I don't know. I thought Jono would be more about coordinating internally between teams.
<LaserJock> but I don't know where that is
<crimsun> ideally the CM would put together a team to do that.
<crimsun> it would be a tremendous burden to have one person do it all.
<LaserJock> yeah, the CM really should be the person to see holes in the community and put together the teams to fill them
<LaserJock> I would guess anyway
<lloydinho> Anyway, I'll be off for dinner.
<LaserJock> k, cya
<lloydinho> LaserJock, if you upload the patched UDR, I'll have a look at it later..
<lloydinho> To see just how technical it really is.
<LaserJock> k
<lloydinho> :-)
<LaserJock> it's not so much technical
<LaserJock> IMO
<LaserJock> as it is knowing all the processes and the proper procedures
<lloydinho> well, in that case I'll probably be more of a help.
<LaserJock> I would think so, I'll make you do it anyway ;-)
<LaserJock> mwuahahaha
<lloydinho> uh-oh
* lloydinho runs away, somewhat concerned with the prospect of having to deal with the UDR
<LaserJock> ah,  it won't be too bad
<crimsun> famous last words.
<lloydinho> of course not. We'll just need somebody more gullible to do it for us.
* lloydinho looks around
* LaserJock goes off to have a talk with bddebian
<lloydinho> hm. 
<LaserJock> ;-)
<crimsun> no, we need stuff in universe fixed not languishing kthx
<LaserJock> yep, that's going to be the difficulty
<LaserJock> if it comes to broken packages vs. nifty dev docs, I'm pretty sure broken packages get the priority
<trappist> long-term, the better the dev docs the faster bugs get fixed
<LaserJock> yeah
<LaserJock> but getting that long-term view is hard when you have a ton of bugs and merges to do now
<trappist> yeah
<LaserJock> Burgwork: you around?
<Burgwork> LaserJock, never. I don't work on Ubuntu
<LaserJock> fine, be that way
<Burgwork> *grin*
<Burgwork> what do you need?
<LaserJock> were you going to email the list or something about our talk with mdz
<LaserJock> or rather, your talk with mdz
<Burgwork> -desktop? I already did
<mdke> evening
<Burgwork> hey mdke 
* mdke growls at Burgwork 
<LaserJock> yikes
<nixternal> lol
* nixternal tosses mdke a biscuit to calm the growling
<nixternal> im sure i spelled that one wrong
<LaserJock> I'm not so sure
<Burgwork> mdke, oh, my nice cross-posting?
<nixternal> was that you Burgwork?
<nixternal> i couldn't find it..lol
<Burgwork> mdke, I like to call it performance art. Oh, and we need to open the fridge up
<mdke> Burgwork: not really your fault, but paul accidentally quoted me as saying something I didn't, by deleting the first part of the sentence.
<mdke> so quoting it to the marketing list was unfortunate
<Burgwork> mdke, yes, it was
<mdke> I was just concerned that someone had done it on purpose, since they didn't, no worries
<Burgwork> it was a total brainfart on my part
<mdke> as I say, not really your fault
<mdke> bad quoting really
<Burgwork> two errors made a bigger error
<LaserJock> "I have been trying to push my views on the team, [...] " this one?
<LaserJock> :-)
* mdke nods and hugs Burgwork 
<mdke> it's a message that I haven't been contributing enough to this team >_<
<Burgwork> yep
<Burgwork> however, the doc team really needs to kick ourselves in the arse and get moving
<mdke> yeah, I dunno what has gone wrong this cycle
* LaserJock attempts
<LaserJock> nothing has gone wrong I don't think
<Burgwork> mdke, I do: We went to work on marketing
<LaserJock> exactly
<mdke> nah, I have not done any work on marketing
<Burgwork> nor myself
<LaserJock> we shifted focus from shipped docs to wiki work to UWN et. al.
<LaserJock> I think we are all doing lots of work
<Burgwork> btw, how did soc project work out?
<LaserJock> just not focused on the shipped docs so much
<LaserJock> I'll get cracking on Packaging Guide soon enough
<LaserJock> I've just got to get other stuff done before freezes
<nixternal> im crackin' along slowly but surely on Kubuntu docs, and if you want me to help somewhere else that might be a tad bit more important, let me know
<Burgwork> hmm "Adding them is easy enough if you know where to look -- but neither Ubuntu's setup screens nor its help file explain this,"
<Burgwork> mp3 playback ^
<Burgwork> http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/08/19/AR2006081900101.html?referrer=email&referrer=email&referrer=email
<Burgwork> I am going to ask the author where he was looking
<LaserJock> yeah, I'm wondering what Ubuntus help file is
<LaserJock> but we really could use better information at install or right after
<LaserJock> ok, this is a bit annoying
<LaserJock> I like the tabs at the top of the various Ubuntu websites
<LaserJock> but they all go to different places
<LaserJock> depending on what site you are on
<LaserJock> totally inconsistent
<LaserJock> and confusing
#ubuntu-doc 2006-08-22
<poningru> hmm we need to start a db of hardware supported
<Burgwork> poningru, some of that is already there
<LaserJock> there is one
<Burgwork> got any python knowledge?
* poningru yeah kinda
<poningru> why?
<poningru> shopping for a wifi card
<LaserJock> it needs a frontend
<poningru> ah hehe ic
<LaserJock> the hardware database
<poningru> wait isnt there already one?
<Burgwork> it needs two things: a better front end
* poningru remembers filling out a 'survey' like 2 years ago
<Burgwork> and a better db, currenlty it uses flat files
<poningru> and it went through asking is this working correctly? is this working correctly etc.
<Burgwork> yes, it is
<Burgwork> hwdb.ubuntu.com
<Burgwork> ogra was working onit
<poningru> hmm thanks dude
<poningru> but yeah site seems pretty crappy
<poningru> throws error at search
<Burgwork> it has nto been worked on in about a year
<LaserJock> I think there might be some edgy specs for it though
<Burgwork> not really
<Burgwork> specs but no work
<LaserJock> well, I think ogra just needs to find people for it
<LaserJock> I remember talk about it at Paris
<Burgwork> it was always been a matter of finding people
<Burgwork> maybe we should start a DVD bounty program
<Burgwork> win a DVD for working on seomthing
<LaserJock> t-shirts :-)
<Burgwork> something small, other than cash
<LaserJock> peanuts?
<Burgwork> right
<nixternal> jsgotangco: i just sent up a patch for your Kubuntu Quickguide
<nixternal> we are replacing the &distro-version; with &distro-rev; instead now
<mdke> nixternal: we don't maintain the quickguide any more
<mdke> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/Projects
<tonyyarusso> The Ubuntu Book comes in hardcover?  Amazon just had paperback, but Barnes & Noble lists it hardcover.
<mdke> tonyyarusso: we don't know
<tonyyarusso> mdke: Erm, right.  Not this group.
<tonyyarusso> Well, some overlap, but..
<Madpilot> hi Burgundavia 
<Burgundavia> hey Madpilot
<Madpilot> http://www.warbard.ca/temp/ChthulhubuntuLogo.png
<Burgundavia> anybody else on edgy here?
<Burgundavia> that is brilliant
<Madpilot> I has my moments ;)
<Burgundavia> you should make the three bars to be tentacles
<Madpilot> yeah, the logo needs a bit of work
<Burgundavia> I wonder if chthulhubuntu.org is taken
<Burgundavia> aside from being unspellable, it is great domain name
<Madpilot> the GIMP has a lack of distortion filters
<poningru> Burgundavia: /me is
<Burgundavia> poningru: have you noticed g-a-i is borked or is it just me?
<poningru> gai?
<poningru> gnome-auto-i...?
<Burgundavia> gnome-app-install, aka Add/Remove
<poningru> oh
* poningru checks
* poningru should have opened this in the terminal...
<Burgundavia> it doesn't do anything
* poningru wonders if deskbar keeps a log of stdout
<poningru> Burgundavia: oh it started up for me
* poningru did it from deskbar though
<poningru> wfm
<Burgundavia> the window draws for me, but that is it
<Burgundavia> anyway, night 
<poningru> nn
* poningru checks again
<mdke> hi there lloydinho 
<lloydinho> hi mdke
<mdke> lloydinho: what's the status with your document, do you need to update the repository version?
<lloydinho> mdke: Most likely. The current one still has the problem with eaten whitespaces after links and such
<mdke> shall we sync from the wikipage then?
<lloydinho> plus random typos have been fixed in the wiki version as well.
<lloydinho> that sounds good.
<mdke> mvirkkil: pong (from a few days ago) and is your wiki updated with that bold fix?
<mdke> mdke: yes it is, why didn't you just check yourself
<lloydinho> heh.
<mdke> lloydinho: the doc is valid for kubuntu too right? I could move it to trunk/generic
<lloydinho> mdke: it should be. I still need some kubuntu people to look it over and finally approve
<lloydinho> but I think it should be good.
* mdke points at nixternal 
<lloydinho> nixternal, can you confirm that the contribute doc covers Kubuntu to a sufficient degree?
<mdke> lloydinho: what are you going to do with the wikipage now? Would you think of freezing it somehow? otherwise we will get out of sync between wiki/svn
<lloydinho> I don't know what the best option would be. 
<lloydinho> I would like to allow people to edit the wiki page, since few people have done so, so far.
<mdke> how mature do you feel it is?
<mdke> maybe we can move it to the website, and keep the wiki as a sort of development version
<lloydinho> Well. That would be a good way of freezing it, for sure.
<lloydinho> It is still relatively untested, so it's not very mature.
<lloydinho> But it is feature-complete, as far as I can say.
<mdke> after I upload it, post to the list and ask for some reviews. Then if there are any changes, maybe we can do them both in svn and on the wiki. And then we can try the website trick
<mdke> btw, I'm really excited about this document, I can't praise what you've done highly enough
<lloydinho> mdke: thanks! I would be delighted if this doc does some good in attracting people to contribute to Ubuntu.
<mdke> I think it will be the definitive guide to contributing :)
<mdke> jono will love it
<lloydinho> :)
<lloydinho> I think it would be great to try out the wiki doc development model with this doc, as I'm sure there'll be plenty of changes along the line.
<lloydinho> Hopefully, that will make it easier to maintain.
<Madpilot> which doc is this?
<lloydinho> the contribute to ubuntu doc.
<lloydinho> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ContributeToUbuntu
<mdke> lloydinho: agreed
<Madpilot> just found it, at the top of RecentChanges - where I should have looked first :)
<lloydinho> heh
<mdke> except for the missing whitespace issue with "tidy", it seems a quite smooth process
<lloydinho> cool. I'm sure that's another small bug to fix, too.
<mdke> I'll try and find out where tidy developers hang out
<mdke> lloydinho: committed. I think I've caught all the missing whitespaces, maybe just have a quick skim through to check? It occurs after </ulink> and </emphasis>
<lloydinho> mdke: will do. I'll also send out a call for review.
<mdke> great
<mdke> I'll try and get it uploaded to Edgy
<mdke> mpt: hi, around?
<mpt> mdke, yo
<mdke> mpt: sorry not to catch up with you last week, it was an odd week for me. I wanted to speak about the desktop section of the help system, if you have a moment
<lloydinho> Mail sent. Thanks for the help, mdke.
<mdke> lloydinho: np, thank you
<mdke> Seveas: the "new bug" feature of Ubugtu, could it be set up for here, and distros/ubuntu/+source/(k)ubuntu-docs and products/ubuntu-docs?
<mdke> very cool feature
<mpt> mdke, I'll be back in an hour or so, will you still be here?
<mdke> mpt: yes, hope so.
<lloydinho> does anybody know what the plan is with the "small" docs of the generic docs?
<lloydinho> such as the Installation guide, network install guide, security guide and dial-up guide?
<mdke> none of those are maintained, afaik
<lloydinho> So should they just be integrated into some of the other docs, instead?
<mdke> trappist was making some noises about having a go at the security guide, but the installguide is totally old
<lloydinho> yes. I noticed that.
<mdke> I'll delete the install guide. As for dialup, we definitely want to expand the "connecting to the internet" section of the desktopguide, but it is likely that the wiki might have more up to date information
<lloydinho> right.
<lloydinho> Maybe we could also integrate the security concerns into the desktop guide?
<lloydinho> It doesn't look that big at the moment.
<mdke> I think that security is not necessarily a "desktop" subject... I'd love to see it expand as its own doc
<lloydinho> point taken. But at the moment it is pretty much just a FAQ.
<mdke> sure. If it doesn't take off, we can just leave it out, I think
<lloydinho> of course. I was just picking at some loose ends.
<lloydinho> It may not directly be a desktop issue, but I don't think most users will categorize various issues in that way.
<mdke> interesting
<mdke> you think it would be better inside the desktop section of the help system, than in its own section?
<lloydinho> Well, atm the distinction is between desktop and server.
<mdke> lloydinho: we're working on that though, right?
<mdke> I'd like things which logically apply to both to have their own place on the front page, myself
<lloydinho> Ah, of course.
<lloydinho> Just had to look it up. Yes.
<lloydinho> Security would be in the "Maintaining your system" section, wouldn't it?
<lloydinho> rather than in a guide of its own.
<mdke> for me, it would be on the front page, since it applies to desktops and servers
<mdke> a bit like the add-applications document
<lloydinho> oh. I was just looking at this: http://mdke.org/tmp/index-mdke.png
<mdke> ah, that has gone by the wayside, i'm afraid. We haven't had much time to work on something like that
<mdke> http://mdke.org/tmp/new-yelp.png
<mdke> (minus the bottom item)
<mdke> and with add-applications higher up
<lloydinho> oh, allright. 
<lloydinho> Well, we would definitely want to avoid cluttering that too much.
<lloydinho> oh! Lunch! gotta go
<mdke> good idea
<mvirkkil> mdke: hi
<mdke> mvirkkil: ello. You pinged the other day?
<mvirkkil> mdke: do you have any nice documents to convert from docbook to moin?
<mdke> mvirkkil: books or articles?
<mvirkkil> mdke: either
<mvirkkil> mdke: both 
<mdke> yeah, sure
<mdke> have you got a copy of our repository?
<mvirkkil> mdke: no, I probably could get one.
<mdke> ok, cool. let's try trunk: "svn checkout https://docteam.ubuntu.com/repos/trunk foldername"
<mvirkkil> mdke: There's now an action called ImportDocBook which will let you upload a docbook (xml)
<mdke> oh wow
<mdke> I'll give it a try, shall I?
<mvirkkil> mdke: It will convert it on the fly which is amazingly slow.
<mvirkkil> Though mainly because it fetches and pareses the docbook dtd and any other entity refs the docbook has
<mvirkkil> a largeish document takes close to a minute to upload.
<mvirkkil> or process
<mdke> that's the problem for us. Most of our documents involve more than one file
<mdke> and the entity refs are relative paths
<mvirkkil> mdke: xmllint --xinclude --noent mainfile.xml > output.xml
<mdke> ok, I'll do some of that, and test.
<mdke> anything else I need to know?
<mvirkkil> mdke: That will give you a single file, where all entities get replaced. 
<mdke> your wiki is really slow >_< I'm still waiting for it to load
<mvirkkil> mdke: Hmm.. Hopefully not :) But basically there is a high probablility for glitches.
<mvirkkil> mdke: I'm seeing the same thing.
<mvirkkil> mdke: I need to talk to the admin about that.
<mvirkkil> mdke: It's basically not responding :(
<mdke> if it improves later I'll upload some stuff, and send you links to the result, and our html versions for comparison, shall I?
<mvirkkil> mdke: "qandaset" isn't implemented. 
<mdke> fine, we don't use that
<mvirkkil> mdke: sure, that would be great.
<mdke> ok. You are a god
<mvirkkil> mdke: lol! :)
<mdke> what's your mail address?
<mvirkkil> mdke: mvirkkil@cc.hut.fi
<mdke> lovely. I'll let you know
<mvirkkil> mdke: You can also just send me the name of what doc is causing trouble, and I'll see for my self.
<mdke> sure
<mvirkkil> mdke: I wasn't really expecting you to start testing, more like looking for pointers on what docs to test my self.
<mdke> I'm happy to test
<mvirkkil> mdke: and that is great :)
<mdke> i'll look to upload stuff from https://docteam.ubuntu.com/repos/branches/dapper because it's easy to compare the result with what we have at https://help.ubuntu.com (HTML)
* mdke goes for lunch
<mdke> mvirkkil: no worky. [Errno 2]  No such file or directory: '/home/mvirkkil/log.txt'
<jjesse> morning
<mdke> mvirkkil: want the traceback?
<mdke> jjesse: morning
<mdke> mvirkkil: http://paste.ubuntu-nl.org/21388
<jsgotangco> hello!
<jjesse> hiya jsgotangco
<mpt> mdke, hello again
<mdke> mpt: hiya. You mentioned a while back that you wanted to have a go at the desktopguide to give it a better structure, i.e. more top levels sections to suit the new help system structure. Have you already had some ideas about that?
<mpt> mdke, yes, though it's all rearranging deckchairs as long as it's in a section with a name like "Desktop" :-)
<mdke> the section is called "Working with your desktop" at the moment
<mpt> (..."Where's the varnishing section?")
<mdke> what did you have in mind?
<mpt> Probably the biggest benefit would come from pulling sections out into their own top-level topics
<mpt> e.g. "Installing or removing software", "Using the Internet"
<mdke> by top level, you mean top level in the desktopguide, as opposed to top level in yelp, right?
<mpt> no, top level in yelp
<mdke> well, installing or removing software is now top level in yelp
<mdke> not using the internet though
<lloydinho> ah, we were just talking about this, as well.
<mdke> mpt: I think that getting more top level documents in the yelp TOC is going to be a bit tricky for this release, and that we should probably work on trying to promote things to the second level (i.e. when you click on "Working with your desktop")
<mdke> that's rather what I understood you to be saying in your last email
<mpt> Tricky in what way?
<mdke> well, a lot of work. We'd probably have to move away from the yelp TOC system completely
<mpt> Not necessarily
<mpt> Even just one or two extra topics at the top level would be an improvement, I think
<mpt> even if that made the rest of the UDG into an "Other" section :-x
<mdke> mpt: the current look is: http://mdke.org/tmp/new-yelp.png
<mdke> we'll remove the Packaging guide from that
<mdke> what would you suggest adding?
<mpt> hmmmmmm
<mpt> May I giggle at one of those?
<mpt> That looks like a definite improvement from Dapper
<mpt> but "Working with your server"? ... hmmmmm
<lloydinho> sounds like you already are giggling ;-)
<mpt> Not as bad as "Using the Gimp", I guess
<mdke> mpt: we can change all that easily
<lloydinho> Yes, it's more a question of the general layout.
<mdke> especially what we should add/remove from that list
<mpt> Well, I wasn't aware you could change general layout
<mpt> but that's a very wide window
<mpt> and the left side is unused
<mdke> ah
<mdke> that's old yelp
<mdke> new yelp has lots on the left, with all the application manuals
<mdke> sorry, I did that screenshot with our edgy package on a dapper yelp
<lloydinho> there's a nice list of other help screens to compare with...
<lloydinho> http://www.guidebookgallery.org/screenshots/help
<mpt> And remember http://g2meyer.com/usablehelp/gallery/ :-)
<mpt> http://g2meyer.com/usablehelp/gallery/source/ubuntu-5.04.html
* mdke grumbles at not having a "Fix Committed" link in the bug portlet on LP
<mdke> so what do you guys think about top level/second level stuff?
<mdke> at the moment, internet is not even second level
<lloydinho> well, do we even know what people look up the most?
<mpt> Wow, that guidebookgallery page shows how crappy help is in most OSes
<lloydinho> indeed! 
<lloydinho> Most help will seems to be too general to be of any use.
<mdke> my proposal would be to move almost everything up a level. so Music & Video, Internet, Configuring your Desktop, Office, etc etc would all be top level in the desktopguide, i.e. second level on the help system
<mdke> it may not be idea, but I think a step in the right direction is all we'll have time for for Edgy
<mpt> That would be an improvement
<mdke> idea/ideal
<mdke> much of "desktopguide/getting started" might warrant a separate doc, actually
<mdke> i.e. top level in yelp
<mdke> it's not really anything to do with the desktop
<lloydinho> we can have a "New to Ubuntu?" doc..
<mdke> we could do. If we did, we could include much of https://help.ubuntu.com/community/CommonQuestions in it too
<jjesse> shouldn't the "New To Ubuntu" information be covered in the release notes?
<mdke> jjesse: I don't think so, releasenotes are more about specific releases. and we don't ship those with ubuntu in the help system
<mdke> (rightly or wrongly)
<jjesse> is there a reason that you don't ship the release notes w/ ubuntu?  they are included w/ kubuntu
<mvirkkil> mdke: URGH!
* mvirkkil sucks
<mvirkkil> It seems I committed without removing the debug print.
<mdke> jjesse: I guess because the developers wrote them and we never ported them to xml... 
<jjesse> mdke: interesting, cause we write the kubuntu release notes :)
<mdke> yeah
<mdke> they don't fit particularly well with the help system structure we're sketching out, I don't think
<mdke> I've always viewed releasenotes as containing information that is specific to a release, rather than documentation about how to use the OS
<jjesse> agreed but it does cover what is new in that reelease
<mdke> ah, misunderstanding
<mdke> he means "new as in new users", not "new as in new features"
<jjesse> ah i see now
<jjesse> more of a "Welcome to Ubuntu" thing?
<mdke> right
<lloydinho> oh. Yes, like that.
<lloydinho> Like we currently have an "introduction to Ubuntu" document.
<mvirkkil> mdke: I'll fix it as soon as I get home. This is exactly why I shouldn't be the lone tester :)
<mpt> Release notes are what you write when you have information that's too new to put in its appropriate place
<mvirkkil> mdke: I appreciate your help :)
<mdke> mvirkkil: great, thanks. Shall I try something else, or will it break for everything?
<mvirkkil> mdke: It's broken for everything.
<mdke> ok :) I'll try again tomorrow then
<mvirkkil> mdke: sorry about that.
<mdke> np
<jjesse> wow close those bugs mdke :)
<mdke> lots more left!
<mdke> mpt: how do you feel about the "Getting Ubuntu" section in the desktopguide <runs for cover>
<jjesse> why are the bugs in ubuntu-docs not assigned to the ubuntu doc team, look at the difference between https://launchpad.net/people/ubuntu-doc/+packagebugs and https://launchpad.net/people/ubuntu-doc/+assignedbugs
<mdke> jjesse: bugs don't get assigned until they are confirmed and an individual takes on responsibility for fixing them. the docteam is bug contact for all ubuntu-doc bugs
<mdke> at least, that's how I understand the bug flow, more or less
<mpt> mdke, I think it shouldn't exist
<mdke> mpt: yes, I've deleted it.
<mdke> just testing :)
<mpt> yayfor
<mpt> Maybe I'll stay awake long enough to do some writing/chopping tonight
<mpt> "Linux Basics" should be carved up
<mdke> mpt: ok, I'm playing around putting things up a level, lemme commit what I've got in a bit and you can play with Linux Basics
<mpt> ok
<mdke> mpt: committed, I've moved everything in "Common tasks" up a level (I had to put them in desktopguide.xml for now). It has resulted in perhaps some things being *too* high up :) let me know how you think it looks
<mdke> "Programming" probably shouldn't be there at all, as with much of "Configuring your System"
<lloydinho> mdke, I've just been looking at the CommonQuestions wiki page. 
<mdke> yeah
<lloydinho> I think a fair few of those things should be easier to find in the Yelp menu.
<lloydinho> we could do a Common Questions list with links to various subtopics.
<mpt> If there are any Common Questions, they should be on the front front page, and link directly to the answer for each
<mpt> IMO
<lloydinho> yes, that was what I meant, really :-)
<mdke> the actual question on the front page?
<lloydinho> compare to this: http://www.guidebookgallery.org/pics/gui/system/features/help/macosx103.png
* mdke is not sure how we could handle that
<lloydinho> hm. Well, it would require some restructuring, I guess.
<lloydinho> most of the questions in the CommonQuestions can easily be covered by the Introduction to Ubuntu/"New to Ubuntu?" doc.
<lloydinho> there are only a few technical questions that would need to be answered up front.
<lloydinho> Like: "How do I install new applications?"
<lloydinho> and "How do I play MP3s and other multimedia files?"
<mdke> yes
<Riddell> mdke, nixternal: new kubuntu-docs uploaded to dapper-upadts
* nixternal wipe eyes and yawns
<lloydinho> maybe we can do these as sort of linkable bullet points under the desktop headline ..?
<mdke> Riddell: oh awesome! is there anything that needs to be merged back into our repo?
<mdke> mpt: sorry, I've committed something else, update again if you're working on it
<Riddell> mdke: changelog entry if you could http://kubuntu.pastebin.com/773238
<mdke> Riddell: ok, thanks. done.
<mdke> mpt: another thing we need to look at is the relationship between the desktop guide and the Gnome Desktop Guide, which probably has lots of good material we could integrate
* nixternal heads off to the gym...bbiab
<mpt> mdke, I won't be working on it for another 2.5 hours or so
<mpt> I have paid work to do :-P
<mdke> cool
<mdke> ok, see ya later. I might do some more in the meantime then
<lloydinho> mdke, I did a sketch of a layout for the toplevel yelp menu.
<lloydinho> http://eskar.dk/andreas/yelp%20structure.txt
<lloydinho> the linebreaks don't work, but I'm sure you get the idea.
<mpt> lloydinho, good start, now halve the words :-)
<lloydinho> hm... tricky. :-)
<mdke> cool.
<mdke> here is how the desktopguide looks now (haven't committed yet): http://mdke.org/tmp/desktopguide.png
<mpt> great jorb
<mdke> a fair amount of that isn't relevant to desktops at all really... especially "Networking"
<mdke> and "Programming
<mdke> most of Hardware can be relocated to "Graphics", "Internet" and so on
<lloydinho> good stuff!
<mdke> what do you guys think about moving "Digital Cameras" and "Graphics Cards" from "Hardware" to "Graphics"? I'd quite like to eliminate Hardware altogether
<lloydinho> "hardware" is a rather unhelpful category.
<mdke> i think so too
<lloydinho> But Digital Cameras would be in a "peripherals category" rather than a graphics category, wouldn't it?
<mdke> dunno, the photo management applications are in the Graphics menu, that's my reasoning
<lloydinho> Well, I'm sure that if we change the title of that chapter to Graphics and Photo management, we are all good
<mdke> ok
* mdke updates screenshot
<lloydinho> mpt, mdke: how about this, then:
<lloydinho> http://eskar.dk/andreas/yelp%20structure.txt
<mdke> lloydinho: we've got installing new applications in the table of contents as a separate item right now, as it applies to desktops, servers and so on
<mdke> otherwise, it's cool
<lloydinho> mhm. But in the server guide, it's all from the command line, while in the desktop guide it's via the G-A-I and the command line.
<lloydinho> besides, I doubt anybody would be setting up a server who didn't know how to use synaptic..
<mdke> well, hang on
<mdke> the add-applications guide covers all of those, the idea being that you can use what you like, regardless of what you are doing
<mdke> so you can use synaptic to set up a server, and the command line to install things on your desktop
<mdke> depending on what you like
<lloydinho> oh, okay. 
<lloydinho> But since it is linked on the front page, would it matter that it is under the Desktop heading rather a completely separate menu item?
<lloydinho> Can we not just refer people to the same document if they read the Server Guide instead?
<mdke> you mean have it as a subsection in both the desktop and server sections?
<lloydinho> well, no. Have it as it is now on the frontpage, but also have sort of symlink to it in the server section as well.
<lloydinho> So it is a separate document as planned, but linked from both one and another.
<lloydinho> *linked to*
<mdke> well, what we've done in the desktop guide so far is to link to that document whenever a procedure involves installing a package
<lloydinho> yes. I'm just worried that it will confuse people to have that as a separate menu item when it clearly belongs with both of them (which also would be confusing)
<lloydinho> So if we link to it from the frontpage, hinting that it is part of the desktop guide, people will go have a look
<mdke> oh, I see
<lloydinho> in the desktop guide, and they will find links to it all over the place
<mdke> we can't link to stuff from the frontpage really.
<lloydinho> Or just go straight to the doc..
<lloydinho> no?
<mdke> not unless we write our own frontpage, instead of using the automatically generated one that yelp produces
<lloydinho> hm. 
<lloydinho> I have no idea how difficult that would be.
<mdke> not so difficult. that's what http://mdke.org/tmp/index-mdke.png was trying to do
<lloydinho> oh, right. 
<lloydinho> I think it might be worthwhile to consider. 
<mdke> me too
<mdke> the yelp frontpage is going to clash horribly with our documentation
<mdke> so rolling our own is likely to be a good idea
<lloydinho> yep - it will also make it possible for us to make it easier to use, since we know what people are likely to be looking for.
<mdke> i really need to get an Edgy system
<lloydinho> well, as far as I can tell, it still breaks a fair bit.
<lloydinho> But it would definitely be helpful.
<mdke> ok, I'm going to do some real work. Thanks for chatting
<lloydinho> cool. see ya
<mdke> lloydinho: some feedback on the contribute doc:
<mdke> 16:44:19 < DonS> In the section on MOTU, there is an unended paragraph:
<mdke> 16:44:33 < DonS> Once you have gained experience with packaging tasks ... Ubuntu core developer by .
<mdke> 16:44:44 < DonS> It sort of ends there ;)
<mpt> lloydinho, that's an improvement
<lloydinho> mdke, nixternal - please come cheer on me for the CC meeting :-)
<nixternal> when is it?
<mdke> lloydinho: I did so by email last week, Kamion has it. I can't attend the meeting I'm afraid
* mdke dives back to work
<lloydinho> no worries. Kamion dug it out at the opportune moment. Thanks a lot.
<nixternal> lloydinho: you still around?
<lloydinho> nixternal, yep.
<nixternal> lloydinho: if possible, you need to configure your IRC server port to 8001.  You are falling victim to DCC exploits utilizing port 6667 hence the reason you are in a banned list
<lloydinho> oh.
<nixternal>  <nalioth> he's on the ban-forward in #ubuntu
<lloydinho> I don't even know what that means.
<nixternal> hehe, it means that people boot you with a dcc exploit that causes you to join/quit quite a bit
<lloydinho> oh. That's good to know. Hopefully, that will be cleared out next time I restart Xchat.
<nixternal> if you set up your irc client to use port 8001, it prevents the dcc exploit, and then gets you removed from the ban-forward list...the ban-forward list will drop you off into a channel like #fix_your_router or #setup_irc_for_port_8001, or whatever they set it to
<lloydinho> hm. Is this standard knowledge around here? How do people get to know this?
<nixternal> from people like me telling them..it needs to be made standard
<nixternal> rob: ^^
<Burgwork> mdke, please please please, ContributeToUbuntu????
* Burgwork grumbles
<nixternal> jjesse: i did some work on the kubuntu release notes docs btw...there still needs to be some loving applied to it, but there is a decent start to it
<nixternal> the about-kubuntu needs a decent "Support" section as well. You can't use the LTS support one, and I really couldn't find the words to add for Edgy Support, as Edgy is nothing more than a version to build future versions from
<jjesse> i've been thinking on that as well, since i saw your patch
<nixternal> i can continue working on and updating the release notes for edgy if you hadn't planned anything and if you don't mind
<jjesse> no that's fine for now, i would like to help w/ focusing on switching some more also need to take a look at the desktop guide
<nixternal> i would as well, but getting the docs up'd b4 the freeze is just a tad bit more important right now...also, the desktop guide, last i heard robotgeek was working on it, and asked me to help with splitting the sections..i emailed him about it and haven't heard back yet...and he hasn't been online since he last said that as well
<nixternal> i don't want to step on toes either
<jjesse> ok
<nixternal> i figured we could have all grabbed a file or 2 and worked on them together...
<LaserJock> Burgwork: what's wrong with ContributeToUbuntu?
<Burgwork> LaserJock, because there are already two other docs doing the same thing
<Burgwork> and because I asked them to merge thema nd nothing happended
<LaserJock> we are working on it
<Burgwork> so all that has happened is the waters have been muddied
<LaserJock> ContributeToUbuntu is lloydinho's rough draft of what is going into the svn repo
<LaserJock> I think the idea is to get the website and yelp page decently in sync
<LaserJock> does that sound ok?
<Burgwork> yes, but annoucing it has the final doc, like mdke did is not cool, in my books
<Burgwork> saying "we are working on a new doc" is ok
<LaserJock> oh, were did he announce that?
<jjesse> i didn't read his announcment as a final doc
<jjesse> especially the part on comment on it
<Burgwork> planet ubuntu
<jjesse> is it different then what went out on sounder
<jjesse> ?
<Burgwork> "Now, we have a definitive document which lists"
<Burgwork> I rest my case
<LaserJock> hmm
<jjesse> "please have a read through this document and check it for accuracyr..... so please comment on the document  as soon as possible so that we CAN FREE IT when it is MATURE enought"  (empahsise added)
<LaserJock> well, I think the point is to use that wiki page for developing the doc
<LaserJock> neither the website nor the doc team svn are exactly open for all teams to easily contribute too
<Burgwork> well, then lead off with "we are developing a doc", not this is a finished doc
<Burgwork> plus, I completely disagree about where to keep it
<LaserJock> where would you suggest?
<Burgwork>  /community/participate
<LaserJock> but that is in no way open
<Burgwork> it doesn't have to be
<Burgwork> it links to other places that are open
<LaserJock> we are trying to get teams to contribute
<Burgwork> having a giant list is a maintenance nightmare
<LaserJock> yes
<Burgwork> see HelpingUbuntu for a much better and slimer version
<LaserJock> we don't want the slimmer version though
<LaserJock> that exists and is good
<Burgwork> we need one doc, regardless
<LaserJock> we are trying to ship a doc that has more complete information
<Burgwork> announcing yours as cononical when others exist is bad form
<LaserJock> I agree
<Burgwork> now I have to disagree publicly, on planet
<LaserJock> I don't think that was Matthew's intent at all, but I can understand that it could be taken that way
<LaserJock> I truely think there needs to exist a short summary version and a more complete doc-style version
<LaserJock> you heard the people at Ubucon at my talk
<LaserJock> there needs to be at times a lot of hand holding
<LaserJock> and a website is not exactly the place to do it
<jjesse> i agree with LaserJock
<jjesse> for a more complete doc=style version
<LaserJock> I think they should be consistent for sure
<Burgwork> my vision is a single small doc leading to lots of other docs for the teams
<LaserJock> my problem with that is:
<jjesse> did you guys look at HelpingKubuntu for the kubntu section or is there not going to be and need a separte doc for that?
<LaserJock> 1) teams don't maintain there info very well (we could poke them about it though)
<LaserJock> 2) there is a lot more information that people need than just "Here are the teams"
<Burgwork> 1 needs to be solved, either way
<Burgwork> 2 is not an issue
<LaserJock> it's not?
<jjesse> i respectively disagree w/ you Burgwork
<LaserJock> people don't know about mailing lists, IRC, Launchpad, etc.
<Burgwork> because the doc I was plnaing is more than just a list
<Burgwork> it says what the team does, in general terms
<jjesse> how many i need help w/ x emails do we get on launchpad for example
<LaserJock> if we just shove them at teams then they have no feel for the overall tools and process
<Burgwork> those shoudl be directed to thea appropritate team
<LaserJock> to some degree
<Burgwork> regardless, mdke should not have worded it like that
<LaserJock> I can agree there, it perhaps should have been worded differently
<Burgwork> and now I need to disagree with him very publicly
<LaserJock> I think we are in the process of making a definitive doc
<LaserJock> but it certainly won't be a wiki page in the end
<LaserJock> it should be in the shipped docs and on community/pariticipate
<Burgwork> that is a maintenance nightmare
<Burgwork> I just don't see the point of shipping it
<Burgwork> nobody can realistically contribute to ubuntu without an internet connection of some kind, even if just at a community centre
<Burgwork> plus information changes
<LaserJock> well
<Burgwork> I do see the point of sayiing" if you want to help, go here"
<LaserJock> I think we need something that is doc in style
<Burgwork> yes, we do
<Burgwork> just not shipped
<LaserJock> and I don't see how that would fit well on community/participate
<LaserJock> and if it is a doc, I don't see a problem with shipping it
<Burgwork> think outside teh box
<Burgwork> the style of that website page can change
<LaserJock> sure
<LaserJock> but I'm talking several pages
<Burgwork> well, the team pages are always going to be on the wiki
<LaserJock> sure
<Burgwork> havine several pages is a bad idea
<Burgwork> we need a single point of entry
<LaserJock> yes
<Burgwork> hence the hierarchy I proposed
<LaserJock> but we also need a lot of material
<Burgwork> hence why one doc will also not work
<nixternal> man...there are go many good points on either side here...no reason to ship it by Burgwork, agree and disagree...agree because until i started working with the doc team, i never read the installed docs or help...disagree as many people who use ubuntu don't scour the wiki, forums, launchpad, and lists..if htey happen to look at the installed docs they will see it...my $0.02
<Burgwork> too much will cause people to give up
<LaserJock> one doc will
<LaserJock> work
<LaserJock> I think ;-)
<Burgwork> grabbing lunch, back in 20
<Burgwork> you try and stuff 50 different projects across 12+ teams and see if it works
<Burgwork> that are changing so rapidly
<LaserJock> my point is not the teams
<LaserJock> I don't care so much about the teams
<LaserJock> I'm more worried about the big picture stuff people need to know
<LaserJock> we need to target people who have not used IRC or mailing lists or Launchpad
<LaserJock> we know nothing about the processes that we use
<LaserJock> s/we/who/
<nixternal> i also see the need for seperations..as someone who uses Xubuntu might not be interested in Kubuntu, Ubuntu, or Edubuntu contribute docs as much
<LaserJock> it should be universal, IMO
<nixternal> so i can see, creating seperate docs at the same time...however, people who might be like us, want to contribute to every aspect
<nixternal> LaserJock: i agree with that as well, but no matter which way it goes, there will be negative and positive about it..as both views right now are good
<LaserJock> sure
<nixternal> at first i wasn't agreeing with Burgwork, then he laid out his reasons and they made sense...
<LaserJock> part of the problem is that the website has not been very open for us
<nixternal> i for one, truthfully never opened the KDE Help Center since the 90's
<LaserJock> so making changes there is difficult
<nixternal> and I have never used Yelp up until recently, and only to check out the docs i create
<LaserJock> right
<LaserJock> that is what we need to change
<nixternal> i think we need to poll users maybe and see how many actually read through yelp, or kde help center or whatever is in xubuntu as well just to see how many are with us
<LaserJock> we shouldn't always side-step the issue
<nixternal> true
<nixternal> i think, there should be a seperation of some sort from the kde help center and yelp with docs
<nixternal> google has replaced help really amongst most users
<LaserJock> and that is a very bad thing
<nixternal> even the newbies know how to google something
<jjesse> i just use the wiki for help
<nixternal> if it is ubuntu general, i know it is usually on the wiki somewhere
<nixternal> but you can't beat google
<LaserJock> the user's best resource should be their own computer
<LaserJock> ok
<LaserJock> but here's the deal
<nixternal> well...i can tell you from what i have seen in the kde help center..it sucks
<nixternal> they should call it the kde info center if anything
<LaserJock> and it will continue to suck until people care for it
<jjesse> the kubuntu docs or the kde docs?
<nixternal> kde docs
<nixternal> haha
<mdke> Burgwork: don't get it, sorry
<LaserJock> my problem has been in the past is that the Ubuntu website is not open to us
<mdke> definitive doesn't mean final
<LaserJock> mdke: but many people might take it as "go here and not anywhere else"
<mdke> well, that's the point of it, yeah
* mdke simply doesn't understand the problem
<LaserJock> but that wiki page is not the final "go here" place
<mdke> LaserJock: surely that's exactly what that document is intended to be
<nixternal> webster says it can mean final, or it can be to define...but i am willing to bet, mdke is using it to define, as it is very common amongst the law types ;)
<LaserJock> mdke: I believe it was the rough draft for andreas
<mdke> LaserJock: he is satisfied it is finished, subject to review, which was the whole point of my blog entry
<LaserJock> right
<LaserJock> but we are then going to move it into the doc team repo and/or website
<mdke> it's in the repo
<mdke> and yes, website, assuming the webmaster agrees
<LaserJock> so it would seem to be more of a WIP area rather than the "definitave" place to find the info
<mdke> I said that in my blog post too
<LaserJock> sure
<mdke> when I say "definitive", what I mean is that the document will be a single and complete guide to how to contribute
<LaserJock> yep
<LaserJock> I got it, but Corey is worried that it means, "bookmark this URL as this will be the place to send people"
<mdke> not that *that specific url* will be the single and complete guide
<LaserJock> right
<LaserJock> so it's not a big issue
<mdke> of course it's not a big issue
<Burgwork> mdke, definitive means "this is the one document, all else are to be ignored"
<mdke> Burgwork: yes. that is what that document is
<Burgwork> no, it is not
<Burgwork> we have had this disagreement before
<mdke> yes, it is. Don't get all stroppy because you like your document better
<LaserJock> I think it *should* be
<Burgwork> it is not that I like it better, it is because nobody has sufficiently answered my objections
<LaserJock> as it is community maitained and has the review/participation of the various teams
<jjesse> i'm still confused as to what these objections are
<mdke> Burgwork: go ahead and submit some feedback about the document, the call for review is on the -doc and -sounder lists
<Burgwork> yes, but I am also going to have to publically disagree with you on planet, because of your announcement
<jjesse> why?
<Burgwork> because he announced the doc as something it wasn't
<mdke> you're overreacting to a huge degree
<jjesse> i think you interpertued it as something other then what the announcement was
<jjesse> man i can't spell today
<Burgwork> mdke, no, I am not
<mdke> that's planet, and is a good place to ask for review from community contributors, not make announcements
<mdke> go ahead and disagree, that's what your blog is for, don't tell me that you'll have to publically disagree, as if it is something I should be scared about
<mdke> there's no problem here
<Burgwork> mdke, it is about solving some of these issues before we went public-ish
<Burgwork> I very clearly raised my objections with you and lloydhino and got ignored
<Burgwork> after I had worked on a previous document and stated I would be working on it again
<LaserJock> Burgwork: what's is your issues?
<Burgwork> 1. location of document
<mdke> "public"
<mdke> haha
<Burgwork> 2. how this document fits into existing documents
<Burgwork> mdke, planet is public
<Burgwork> regardless of what you think
<jjesse> so are the mailing list of sounder :)
<mdke> Burgwork: so is the wiki, the mailing list, and this channel
<mdke> all of which had discussed the document ages ago
<Burgwork> planet is more so
<mdke> so it's a question of degree, and I'm telling you that planet is a good place to ask for community review
<Burgwork> 3. How indepth the specific document gets
<mdke> new users are not going to jump on planet and misunderstand stuff
<LaserJock> ok, 1. you want only community/participate on the website?
<Burgwork> yes, because of what I have already mentioned
<Burgwork> shipping a document is nuts, imho
<LaserJock> not shipping doesn't mean it should go on the website
<Burgwork> not, but maintaining two copies is very hard
<LaserJock> the website is very closed
<LaserJock> as it should be
<Burgwork> so is the shipped documentation
<LaserJock> not really
<Burgwork> the website is no more closed than the shipped documents
<LaserJock> as with all of our docs, they start as wiki pages
<Burgwork> once they are docs, they are something different
<LaserJock> and people have a clear place to submit patches
<mdke> there is no question of maintaining 2 documents, we've showed how easy it is to maintain one document on the wiki, and stick it in docbook
<mdke> it can be published easily in the distribution and on the website with no overhead
<Burgwork> LaserJock, I have never once seen a patch from somebody I did not know already
<mdke> as for shipping it - lots of ubuntu users don't know how to contribute, so it's great to have the document in their face like that. What harm is it?
<mdke> a few KB is the only cost
<Burgwork> 1. getting stale
<LaserJock> Burgwork: yes, but the website is significantly more closed
<Burgwork> LaserJock, not practically
<jjesse> who can add to the website?
<Burgwork> what if our shipped doc disagrees with our website?
<Burgwork> teams come and go
<jjesse> i know i don't have access to it
<Burgwork> jjesse, mdke and myself, others if they ask
<Burgwork> projects come and go
<LaserJock> ok, then lets not ship it, shipping the doc is not my point
<Burgwork> then we are back tot he point of how much the doc contains
<jjesse> seems like less people have access to the web then to svn 
<LaserJock> my point is that a community doc should *not* be maintained on the website
<jjesse> +1 lionelp
<jjesse> doh
<Burgwork> LaserJock, that is where they are going anyway
<jjesse> +1 LaserJock
<Burgwork> the website could be more open
<nixternal> hahah
<Burgwork> that is an issue that can be resolved
<LaserJock> I think it is the website maintainers job to grab info from the community
<LaserJock> the doc team should not have to maintain the website for them
<mdke> LaserJock: it's easy to maintain the doc on the wiki, and at stable points, include it in the shipped docs and on the website
<LaserJock> I agree
<mdke> 6 months is not a long time
<Burgwork> LaserJock, that is so backwards and old school
<mdke> it won't go stale to any significant degree
<LaserJock> Burgwork: but it is the truth
<Burgwork> the website should also be driven by community
<Burgwork> LaserJock, currently yes, but the fridge opened up
<LaserJock> and until the website is driven by the community it is still an issue
<Burgwork> mdke, 6 months is a long time. What if breezy contained such a doc?
<Burgwork> it would not contain the art team, or the marketing team
<mdke> Burgwork: then it would be updated for dapper
<Burgwork> or fridge
<mdke> the same argument applies to anything in our docs
<Burgwork> do you see my issue? this doc is highly volitaile, by its very nature
<Burgwork> this is more so
<mdke> no, I don't see it
<mdke> I think the doc is a massive asset
<LaserJock> ok, just a sec
<Burgwork> having it yes, where it goes is still up for discussion
<jjesse> if the doc team thinks the way mdke proposed is the way to go would you accept Burgwork?
<mdke> and having it on the system is very important
<LaserJock> the doc I envision shipping is not a simple list of contact info for various teams
<Burgwork> then what does it contain?
<LaserJock> I want to see a doc that has what it takes to contribute to Ubuntu
<Burgwork> beyond a list of places to contact?
<LaserJock> to get people excited
<Burgwork> that is one paragraph, maybe two
<LaserJock> people need to learn about what Ubuntu development is about
<Burgwork> and link to /community/participate
<LaserJock> what tools we use
<Burgwork> that would be called WhyToContribute, not How
<mdke> Burgwork: I think this document can replace community/participate
<mdke> obviously it would need to be structured
<Burgwork> mdke, /community/pariticpate can never go away
<mdke> no, but it can get better
<Burgwork> my plan always was to move HelpingUbuntu to /community/participate
<Burgwork> that was before this new stuff came along
<mdke> heh
<Burgwork> I simply ran out of time and energy
<Burgwork> do you see why I think this is an end run?
<mdke> the new doc is just version 2 of HelpingUbuntu
<Burgwork> but I feel it is a regression, in a lot of ways
<mdke> they should definitely be merged, I agree
<mdke> Burgwork: so give feedback to the mailing list and Andreas can address those "regressions"
<Burgwork> I already spoke with him and nothing happened
<mdke> irc isn't a great way of giving feedback
<Burgwork> yes, I also didn't help
<Burgwork> but I think I spoke with him about two weeks ago
<mdke> I remember
<mdke> but things don't come out in a logical way on irc
<mdke> a structured email is much better
<LaserJock> well I personally think the doc has a long way to go
<mdke> Andreas listens very well
<Burgwork> no, they don't
<mdke> they?
<LaserJock> a doc sprint? :-)
<Burgwork> mark suggested in the dapper cycle
<mdke> LaserJock: same applies, you can also give feedback, right?
<Burgwork> mdke, irc doesn't, sorry
<LaserJock> yes, I'm working with andreas
<LaserJock> I haven't had time to contribute a whole lot yet
<LaserJock> ack, there are so many issues here
<mdke> I think email is better for this, definitely
<LaserJock> I'm not sure what becomes of the packaging guide either with all of this
<Burgwork> sadly I have a date with a lady tonight, otherwise I would respond via email
<LaserJock> priorities ;-)
<Burgwork> indeed, terrible things
<Burgwork> I will look into the larger issues tomorrow night
<LaserJock> anway, at Ubucon I definately saw the need for a larger scale doc than just "here are the list of teams"
<Burgwork> yes
<LaserJock> my talk was mostly that, and I felt it wasn't very successful at all
<nixternal> i like the idea of a brief explanation of what the team does, and then here is how you can help....but there definitely needs to be something that gets a user interested in the first place
<LaserJock> people need to learn "how" to contribute not just "where"
<nixternal> and it ineeds to be seperrated, at least in terms of Kubuntu, the "Help" section
<crimsun> that's an NP-complete problem.
<LaserJock> and for some of that the teams themselves are definatley the place for that
<LaserJock> but there are many things people need to learn before they even get to the teams
<Burgwork> that would be a Why doc, almost
<LaserJock> more than just why
<nixternal> maybe there should be a breakdown as well, as maybe a new user doesn't want to read "How to Contribute to development" when he/she can barely use theis new system
<crimsun> First you have to convince people that philanthropy is worth their while; posterity is more important than "can I go and play football now"
<nixternal> good point crimsun
<LaserJock> I see this a raising the "Ubuntu IQ" of the user population
<LaserJock> but maybe that is too ambitious
<nixternal> ahhh, i kind of like that analogy as well
<nixternal> well, i truthfully think that ambition is warranted though, especially with a young doc as this
<crimsun> Once you've made it clear that Ubuntu succeeds because its _potential_ userbase becomes more involved, then you can begin to describe how to more effectively worth within this social network
<LaserJock> right
<crimsun> s/worth/work/
<LaserJock> and these things are why I just don't see it working well on a single webpage
<LaserJock> but I'm not a real doc person or webmaster or anything
<nixternal> Who, What, Where, When, Why, and How
<LaserJock> so I really have to defer to the more knowledgable here
<nixternal> just restructure it
<nixternal> when isn't necessary, as it is now, and forever really
<nixternal> Why will get the people interested...Who will let "EVERYONE" know they are wanted by the community...What and How will work together to show the type of work and maybe how it is carried out...Where will definitely be the contact info
<LaserJock> the thing is I can really see a doc that is rather large and perhaps it is better done on the wiki
<nixternal> ya, i can see it becoming something like the packaging guide the more i think of it..and truthfully, for something like this, i don't think it would be the best
<Burgwork> the initial doc shouldn't be easily editable, due to issues with public facing
<Burgwork> but the subsequent docs should most definitively be ont eh wiki
<LaserJock> yeah
<nixternal> it needs to be small in nature and to the point..otherwise you have to flip through 40 pages just to find something you might like
<LaserJock> I guess what I'm looking at is documentation on the Ubuntu community :-)
<LaserJock> and maybe we just shouldn't bother documenting something like that
<Burgwork> nixternal, precisely my concern
<nixternal> yes Burgwork, i can see it now that i have sat back and thought about it more
<LaserJock> ah, well I think that is sort of differnt
<LaserJock> I hadn't really envisioned a linear doc like the packaging guide
<nixternal> i can see an initial page or the opportunities, that link to further info
<LaserJock> but you guys are still talking about teams, no?
<mdke> nixternal: documents can be structured so that this isn't a problem, with subsections
<nixternal> me either LaserJock, until i thought about how complicated it could become
<LaserJock> I'm not concerned with teams
<nixternal> mdke: i realize that, and thats what pushes me for it...i have to say..right now im 50/50 on it
<nixternal> it has, to me, an even about of good and bad with it
<nixternal> of course, i will keep an open mind to it, and hopefully be persuaded to one side more than the other so i can at least give valuable feedback concerning the issue
<LaserJock> the thing for me is that "How to contribute" != "Here is a list of teams"
<LaserJock> which is what all the current docs seem to do more-or-less
<nixternal> +1 LaserJock
<LaserJock> the teams are pretty easy to discover on the wiki or on LP, etc.
<LaserJock> and we *should* have a listing somewhere
<Burgwork> LaserJock, easy to discover yes, easy to find out what they do, no
<mdke> anyway, it's nice to talk about this by email, where Andreas can comment
<LaserJock> Burgwork: sort of, you can always ask a team what they do ;-)
<Burgwork> that doesn't always work
<LaserJock> anyway, I'm not saying we ditch that info
<nixternal> here is something i envision...1 page that lists "generic" help for the community (wiki, docs, marketing, etc.)..then there is a distro specific docs for Ubuntu, Kubuntu, Xubuntu, and Edubuntu and how you can help each one of those
<LaserJock> heh, well I'm pretty opposed to flavor specific docs
<nixternal> this would work if each community w/in the major would contribute as well though
<LaserJock> but it might work
<nixternal> well, there are Kubuntu contributors that really don't want to or aren't interested with Ubuntu or the others
<LaserJock> it shouldn't matter
<LaserJock> really
<nixternal> i know, most of us here, are hardcore junkies and we will contribute where needed
<nixternal> but there are those who love their distro/de more than the other and don't care about the other actually
<LaserJock> fine
<LaserJock> but I really don't see how it matters
<LaserJock> artwork is artwork
<LaserJock> if you want to do Kubuntu artwork fine
<LaserJock> but it's still artwork
<LaserJock> I think splitting things by flavor is, in general, to be avoided
<LaserJock> we are a part of an Ubuntu community
<LaserJock> but that's just my opinion
<LaserJock> as I really see the flavors as just different default apps
<LaserJock> Ubuntu is Ubuntu :-)
<nixternal> true
<nixternal> sorry...phone call
<LaserJock> anyway, I should shut up as I doubt I will have time to work a great deal on this beautiful doc :-)
<Burgwork> http://www.desktoplinux.com/news/NS9835380873.html <-- go vote
<nixternal> you know what..your opinion persuaded me that my idea had a flaws...the only thing i can see being distro specific would be
<nixternal> packaging, development
<nixternal> artwork however can go with packaging and development in a way...as there are already 2 different AICs, 1 for Kubuntu and 1 for Ubuntu
<LaserJock> for sure we can list flavor specific teams
<LaserJock> but I would rather do it within the larger team
<nixternal> there really aren't though...except from a development perspective
<LaserJock> 3 AICs ;-)
<nixternal> heh...i think i need to see some pretty pictures ;)
<nixternal> 3?
<LaserJock> but the all work through the art team
<nixternal> xubuntu got one?
<LaserJock> Edubuntu
<nixternal> who?
<LaserJock> AliasVegas is her name
<nixternal> doh...nm..i remember i wrote about her in the UWN ;)
<nixternal> to late
<nixternal> hehe
<LaserJock> heh, AliasVegas is her nick
<LaserJock> nick, name, all the same
<LaserJock> ;-)
<nixternal> ya, i only refer to you as Jordan Mantha on a professional basis...irc is far from professional ;)
<LaserJock> I don't even refer to myself as Jordan Mantha anymore
<LaserJock> ;-)
<nixternal> it would be nice to have a sweet doc portal that everything in the world could tie into
<Burgwork> it is gcalled google
<LaserJock> bah
<nixternal> i was waiting for that
<nixternal> haha
<LaserJock> google is no good
<nixternal> he is right, but we can't count on google
<LaserJock> I hate google for that sort of thing
<poningru> rofl
<LaserJock> google is very inefficent for doc purposes
<poningru> I dont know...
<LaserJock> it kinda works in a "Spray and Pray" kind of method
<LaserJock> you have no judgment of reliability
<LaserJock> or applicability
<LaserJock> which is really bad for documentation, IMO
<nixternal> sounds like the gangsters here in chicago...spray and pray, or depending on where in the gutter your mind is...bad analogy
<LaserJock> nixternal: well, in Montana it's a hunting term ;-)
<nixternal> lol
<poningru> ...
<LaserJock> nixternal: some people just can't shoot straight
<nixternal> here in chicago as well...you just hunt something different that game
<LaserJock> heh
<nixternal> s/that/than
* poningru thinks of all the bad jokes he could do now...
<LaserJock> mdke: thanks for the bug email :-)
<nixternal> lol
<poningru> too bad for the coc :(
<LaserJock> nah, I'm glad we have coc around
<nixternal> i know where you were going im sure
<LaserJock> there might be young kids like nixternal around ;-)
<nixternal> haha
<nixternal> im only 12 i tell ya
<mdke> LaserJock: plenty more when that came from
<crimsun> 12 with kids, eh?
<LaserJock> crimsun: my wife works with teen moms. 12 is definately not unheard of
<crimsun> LaserJock: I tutor kids around that age who have children, yes, I know. But 12 with kids _and_ free time to engage in irc conversations? That's definitely a corner case.
<poningru> nixternal does it using his time portals
<LaserJock> true tru, you got me there crimsun ;-)
<nixternal> haha
<poningru> he creates them using the spray and pray method
<nixternal> oh...my physical age is 32...my mental or psychological age is 12
<nixternal> ask my shrink...he can tell you more than i can about that ;)
<poningru> ooh thats a much better explanation than mine
<nixternal> Dr. Whoflungit 888.555.5837
<nixternal> that would be +1 for those of you not imprisoned in the US
<nixternal> and for those of you imprisoned as well
<nixternal> ok, back on topic here...so this contributing documentation...is there ever going to be "one" solution that will work?
* mdke pleads to go to email
<nixternal> heh, i dont' have anywhere to start with that one that...except for the simple question...if anyone can provide more then i would recommend they do it ;)
<LaserJock> mdke: hehe, don't worry
<mdke> it's just that Andreas isn't here, so email is much better
<LaserJock> I just needed some brainstorming before the email ;-)
* mdke nods
<nixternal> oh no mdke, im not talking about Andreas' work at all...im talking from a simple doc standpoint...is there a "one stop shop" that will work that won't be to much or to little
<LaserJock> nixternal: I personally think you can present different facets to do that
<nixternal> like LaserJock, brainstorming before something larger is contstructed
<mdke> I feel that documents can always be structured so as to work as "one stop shops" :)
<mdke> if they are rigorously structured enough
<nixternal> w/o a doubt...getting there is going to be the fun part from what i can tell
* mdke nods
<mdke> that's why we're here right?
<LaserJock> I thought it was for the ponies
<LaserJock> :-)
<nixternal> hehe
<nixternal> 40 minutes later ;)  replying to Andreas' post was not fun...that was a lot of reading there...very good doco to start with thought
<nixternal> s/thought/though
<poningru> hey guys in rhythmbox help it claims that daap discovery works out of the box
<poningru> but it depends on avahi-daemon
<mdke> Ubuntu isn't shipping that, right? We could patch the help, if that's a distro deviation
<poningru> right
<poningru> well not sure though
<mdke> can you file a bug on rhythmbox, or whatever package provides the help
<poningru> the big discussion on devel
<poningru> said that we are going to ship with it right?
<poningru> wait I think it was you
<poningru> err maybe garrett
<poningru> not sure
<mdke> I didn't follow that discussion much
* poningru looks through the discussion
<LaserJock> I think we are shipping avahi but it will not be turned on by default
<poningru> hmm what about the interim though
<LaserJock> what interim?
<poningru> as in for edgy before they have it installed...
<poningru> nm stupid question
<poningru> its a dev branch so it doesnt matter...
<mhz> hi guys, soory in advance, in case i experience lag (as usual for last week)
<mhz> I have wikied
<mhz> https://wiki.edubuntu.org/HowToFluxboxStyles
<mhz> and was wondering, if that can be linked from the fluxbox page at help.
<poningru> mdke: malone wont let me file the bug
<poningru> it says : To report a bug about Rhythmbox, please use its official bug tracker.
<LaserJock> poningru: what url are you using?
<poningru> https://launchpad.net/products/rhythmbox/+filebug
<poningru> this has never happend to me before
<poningru> gaah what did lp people do???
<nixternal> rythmbox uses gnomes bugtracker
<nixternal> always has i believe
<nixternal> poningru: 
<poningru> LaserJock: did it work for you?
<nixternal> [17:01:50]  <nixternal> rythmbox uses gnomes bugtracker
<nixternal> [17:01:54]  <nixternal> always has i believe
<LaserJock> poningru: you don't want /products/
<poningru> oh
<nixternal> ooh..i just noticed the products ;)
<LaserJock> you want http://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+filebug
<LaserJock> I think
<poningru> oh ok cool
<nixternal> No packages matching 'rythmbox' are published in Ubuntu
<nixternal> nope, use gnome bug tracker
<LaserJock> rhythmbox
<poningru> rhythmbox :p
<LaserJock> guys, every package in Ubuntu is in Malone
<nixternal> heh
<nixternal> maybe if i spell it right ;)
<nixternal> https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+source/rhythmbox/+filebug
<poningru> :) thanks
#ubuntu-doc 2006-08-23
<poningru> 57366
* poningru looks around for ubugtu
<Madpilot> hi jsgotangco 
<jsgotangco> hey Madpilot how are you doing?
<Madpilot> good. Not had much time for things Ubuntu lately, though. Busy summer.
<jsgotangco> same here
<LaserJock> hmm
<LaserJock> mine kinda went like not had much time for things Real Life lately
<LaserJock> but that might be a priorities problem
<Madpilot> I found time for http://www.warbard.ca/temp/CthulhubuntuLogo.png so it might be a priorites problem for me, too ;)
<Madpilot> priorities, even 
<jsgotangco> haha
<jsgotangco> you are making hp lovecraft proud
<Madpilot> something like that ;)
<Madpilot> I want to redo the bars of the Ubuntu logo as tentacles, though ;)
<jsgotangco> yeah
<jsgotangco> the eyeballs are awesome hehe
<jsgotangco> like some old Misfits song
<nixternal> shh...im trying to get some sleep ;)
<jsgotangco> bah
* jsgotangco starts playing some cheese metal music
<nixternal> heheh
<jsgotangco> http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00099BRUE/ref=m_art_li_8/104-6093206-8749539?%5Fencoding=UTF8&v=glance&n=5174
<jsgotangco> bwahaha
<jsgotangco> nixternal: were the patches you sent applied?
<nixternal> most of them yes
<nixternal> the latest ones with the global.ent changes no
<jsgotangco> oh im not going to mess up that file and let mdke handle it
<nixternal> it is very small changes anyways
<nixternal> fixes kernel, gcc, and glibc versions, and changes channel names for irc to all be the same style, and a couple of kubuntu links
<jsgotangco> if this wasn't a -doc channel, someone would think you did a kernel patch hen
<jsgotangco> heh
<nixternal> lol
* Starting logfile irclogs/ubuntu-doc.log
* nixternal clocks in ready for work!
<jjesse> don't cry :)
<nixternal> lol
<mhz> hi all
<jjesse> hello mhz
<mhz> Guys, The MoinMoin team (actually, mostly xorAxAx) has finished the development of a  Moin instances syncing tool
<mhz> That means wiki admins or some users with ACL may sync 2  moin instances in a userfriendly env.
<mhz> jjesse: hey
<mhz> Also, there is an implementation to send CC emails to a certain known emailwiki@ubuntu.com so the subject can become a name for a wikipage and the body can become the content of the page
<jjesse> that sounds really cool
<mhz> Indeed, esp. because it will speed up collaboration
<mhz> oh, well, there is also a Gantt Chart plugin but it demands knowledge of xml syntax
<mhz> to generate the actual chart
<jjesse> nice
<mhz> yup
* mhz just hopes wiki admins for ubuntu sites can upgrade to Moin 1.5.4
<mhz> and 1.6 soon, so that we could use these new features
<mhz> BTW, Who is responsible for the Help.Doc CSS?
<jjesse> mhz: i don't know
<mhz> thx
<Burgwork> mhz, mdke_ is
<mhz> Burgwork: okas, thx
<mhz> Burgwork: and you know about his policies to wiki upgrading ?
<Burgwork> that would be canonical, not mdke_ 
<mhz> oh
<mhz> and to whom I can ask about it?
<Burgwork> mdke_ can be our conduit for that too
<mhz> okis
<mdz> do any of you happen to know if we have a step-by-step guide (with screenshots) to updating your system with Update Manager?
<nixternal> ooh, i haven't seen one
<nixternal> only step-by-step updating guide i have seen is the one that ubotu lists when you do !dist-upgrade in a channel
<Burgwork> mdz, I have never seen one, but it wouldn't be too hard to do
<nixternal> need to do one for each flavor
<Burgwork> nixternal, yep
<nixternal> you know what..i must say, there is something about the 'Human Theme' that draws me to Ubuntu
<nixternal> i just installed it on my other setup
<nixternal> it looks good, ....
<Burgwork> you will get sucked in by the simplicity and beauty of GNOME
<nixternal> heh
<nixternal> Windows Vista has a better chance of pulling me away from KDE ;)
<Burgwork> mdz, do you want one made?
<nixternal> i can work on a kubuntu one here.. i am using edgy, so i have the new purple display, not the old dapper bubble blue...but functionality is still the same
<nixternal> actually...i will dapper install in vmware, and upgrade that way so i can get the real deal
<nixternal> it would be hard for me to upgrade from edgy to edgy ;)
<jjesse> is there a kubuntu updater like the one ubuntu has?
<nixternal> adept
<jjesse> i know, but doesn't ubuntu have a special update tooL?
<nixternal> actually
<Burgwork> jjesse, yes, it does
<Burgwork> via update-manager
<nixternal> which is adept...i think it pops up a window to tell you there is a new version
<nixternal> and then you can update that way
<jjesse> well if i change my sources.list for edgy i will update to edgy through adept updater
<Burgwork> right
<nixternal> i really can't answer truthfully..i have never allowed a version of KUbuntu to get to that point...im using edgy from knot1 already..no more dapper in the house
<Burgwork> mdz was specifically speaking of the Ubuntu tool, however
<mdz> Burgwork: there seems to be a procedure in the desktop guide, but no screenshots
<mdz> it says things like "there will be a red icon" instead
<mdz> I think it would be useful to have one, yes
<Burgwork> ok, I will look into it
<Burgwork> mdz, while I have you, I need the moderator password to -devel
<mdz> Burgwork: i don't have it. shall I reset it?
<Burgwork> mdz, sounds good
<carthik> Does the Planet come under the wings of the doc team?
<Burgwork> carthik, not really
<Burgwork> carthik, are you an ubuntu member?
<carthik> Burgwork, yes.
<Burgwork> if you want to add yourself to planet, there are instructions on the wiki
<carthik> Was wondering who best to aska question related to anonymity, Burgwork 
<Burgwork> carthik, anonymity?
<Burgwork> talking about ubuntu demon?
<carthik> Burgwork ? No.
<carthik> Burgwork, I took the liberty of /msg ing you, hope that is okay.
<Burgwork> saw that
#ubuntu-doc 2006-08-24
<Burgundavia> hey Madpilot
<Madpilot> hi Burgundavia 
<LaserJock> hi guys
<LaserJock> how goes it today?
<Madpilot> good
<Burgundavia> so I got a new position today at work today "Community Manager"
<Madpilot> Burgundavia, so  you're Userful's answer to Jono? ;)
<Burgundavia> yep
<jsgotangco> ho ho ho
<Madpilot> something tells me "Community Manager" translates to "Guy Who Won't Shut Up About Open Source..." ;)
<Burgundavia> pretty much
<Burgundavia> but I actually got so buy in, finally
<Burgundavia> s/so/some
<LaserJock> you're staying?
<LaserJock> and is there a Community to manage?
<Burgundavia> yes and I get to create one
<Madpilot> Burgundavia, so does "Community Manager" come with a raise, or just a new set of business cards?
<LaserJock> heh
<jsgotangco> heh
<Burgundavia> I hope the former but am not certain. The latter almost certainly
<LaserJock> that's cool
<Burgundavia> and I have some code that Edubuntu will care about, ready in a few days
<jsgotangco> ohhh
<Burgundavia> the code is ready, I just need to sort the tarball out and get the licence file added and the CVS dir removed
<Burgundavia> talk about babes in the woods'
<LaserJock> ahhh
<LaserJock> I'll look forward to seeing it
<Madpilot> another in-house project lurching out under the GPL?
<Burgundavia> LaserJock: I hope to have you package it. Sorry, but my budget ($0) does not allow me to pay you this time
<Burgundavia> Madpilot: yep
<LaserJock> Burgundavia: hehe
<crimsun> "this time"?!
<LaserJock> crimsun: ssshhhh
<LaserJock> ;-)
<Burgundavia> crimsun: userful paid LaserJock some funny for packaging some of closed-source junk
<jsgotangco> he did some underground work
<crimsun> supar sekrit.
<LaserJock> you know it
<crimsun> no wonder you're a raging ubuntu-aholic motu.
<Burgundavia> in dapper-updates, mutiverse, desktop-multiplier
<crimsun> I think I'll just give up like bddebian and make you do all the work.
<jsgotangco> yeah
* Burgundavia needs to chase down Malc and do a press release on that
<Burgundavia> you know what is sad about Userful. AFAIK, I am the only full time Linux user at the company
<LaserJock> crimsun: no way, I made a list today of all the Ubuntu related projects. I count 10 presently
<jsgotangco> the "we're not packaging anything that is non-free till you pay me" group
<Burgundavia> LaserJock: my list of things I have rights over is scarily long
<LaserJock> yeah
<crimsun> LaserJock: that's all? :)
<LaserJock> crimsun: well, some are not very easy projects
<LaserJock> I need to implement a spec this week :-)
<Burgundavia> the menu one?
<LaserJock> yeah
<LaserJock> I think I've got a pretty good idea of what I want to do
<LaserJock> and it's actually pretty close to an app called desktop-profiles
<Burgundavia> sabayon needs to understand merging profiles and hierarchies of profiles
<LaserJock> Burgundavia: yes, I contacted one of the sabayon devs and he pretty much said it would be very difficult and there are presently no developers for sabayon
<Burgundavia> yes
<LaserJock> so I don't think I can handle that myself
<Burgundavia> Jorge and I were lamenting about this all week
<LaserJock> I do think sabayon is a pretty cool app though
<LaserJock> they have firefox and openoffice integration too I believ
<LaserJock> e
<Burgundavia> somewhere, but that has not seen the light of day
<LaserJock> so the profiles can handle a large amount of data
<Burgundavia> KDE and GNOME developers need to merge gconf/kconfig
<Burgundavia> not that crackish dconf, just a straight merge
<LaserJock> I was going to look at kiosktool today but it doesn't work in edgy very well as it need a root password
<LaserJock> and I don't feel like creating root :-0
<LaserJock> :-) I mean
<crimsun> you can ask pitti for pointers. He went on a derooting rampage for Hoary.
<LaserJock> I was going to get Hobbsee to do it but maybe that would work too
<LaserJock> right now I'm trying to figure out why vnc doesn't seem to work in edgy
<LaserJock> if it isn't one thing its another, no wonder I can't get anything done
<Madpilot> LaserJock, you are running a testing release, did you expect to get anything done except testing? ;)
<LaserJock> kinda, yeah
<Madpilot> optimist
<LaserJock> hehe
<LaserJock> well it's hard to work on a spec when you have to fix all the bugs in the distro before you can get to work
<Madpilot> has a release date for Knot2 been given?
<crimsun> not that I'm aware.
<LaserJock> hmm, I thought it was supposed to be a while ago
<Madpilot> OK. Might pull the Knot1 LiveCD down, then, and poke around a bit
<LaserJock> brave man
<Burgundavia> bloody gpm
<Burgundavia> gave me about 30 secs of warning beofre the power shutdown
<jsgotangco> im not touching edgy till the next knot
<jsgotangco> upgrading is not an option either my my pathetic dsl
<Burgundavia> any idea when that might be?
<Burgundavia> I really need to finish the Knot2 page
<jsgotangco> its pretty sketchy, the dailies have always been oversized lately
<jsgotangco> but the aim i guess is to have a stable installer and fix the deps later
<Burgundavia> hey mdke
<LaserJock> kinda hard to test oversized .isos though
<jsgotangco> http://cdimages.ubuntu.com/daily/current/report.html
<jsgotangco> yuck
<jsgotangco> http://sfbay.craigslist.org/sfc/sys/197962004.html
<jsgotangco> hah
<Madpilot> jsgotangco, giant casemod!
<jsgotangco> heck yeah
<jsgotangco> you will need a truck to pick it up though
<Madpilot> Some kid just got attacked by a cougar...
<Madpilot> In socialist British Columbia, pussy eat YOU!
<LaserJock> heh
<Madpilot> actually, the kid's at home recovering, so it was just a nibble, I guess
<jsgotangco> wow cougars still exist in that part of the world?
<LaserJock> jsgotangco: I used to hunt them with my brother in the mountains behind our house
<jsgotangco> wow
<Madpilot> jsgotangco, Vancouver Island is one of the last great strongholds of them
<jsgotangco> dont they attack people?
<Madpilot> jsgotangco, mostly small children
<LaserJock> I've heard of a fair amount of attacks in California too
<jsgotangco> ahhh food chain
<LaserJock> yeah, they really aren't that big
<LaserJock> not like a bear or something
<jsgotangco> the only thing i got to hunt before was wild boar
<jsgotangco> and that's scary already
<LaserJock> oh yeah
<LaserJock> I've never done that, but I've seen a few videos
<mdke> morning homies
<Madpilot> hi mdke 
<nixternal> mornin' mdke ;)
<nixternal> holy cow...2am already
<glatzor> mdke: i have corrected the translation of dekstop guide. i will upload it this evening. but i have to fetch my bus. just to inform you.
<mdke> bhuvan: the commit hook has been added and Ive requested that a bot be added to this channel
<bhuvan> oh great, thank you!
<mdke> bhuvan: thanks for the suggestion
<bhuvan> mdke: np
<mdke> bhuvan: at the moment there are no commit messages though, any idea why?
<mdke> http://cia.navi.cx/stats/project/Ubuntu%20Documentation
<bhuvan> mdke: i dont see a bot join this channel.
<bhuvan> mdke: it should be something like CIA-XX (XX = 2 digit numeral)
<trappist> Ubugtu?
<bhuvan> trappist: the bot we talk here is to send commit intimation to this channel
<mdke> bhuvan: see that webpage, there are no log messages or details
<mdke> the bot hasn't joined yet, that's a separate issue
<bhuvan> oh yeah
<mdke> gah, we still haven't scheduled a meeting
<mdke> i wonder how a weekend would go down
<jsgotangco> weekends are supposed to be fun ;)
<bhuvan> but not all weekends :)
* jsgotangco makes sure *all*
<mdke> jsgotangco: how dare you suggest that meetings aren't fun
<mdke> outrageous
<jsgotangco> :P
<nixternal> hehe...weekends are perfect for meetings ;)
<mdke> I just want to get these licensing questions out of the way
<nixternal> jsgotangco: whats up with the UWN team?  on LP that is?
<jsgotangco> oh its something mgalvin did before
<nixternal> hehe..i just now noticed it
<jsgotangco> since mgalvin is MIA, we have no control ove rit
<nixternal> anyone know the story behind him disappearing?  everything is alright I hope
<nixternal> i heard someone say even his private stuff shut down..blog or something..can't remember exactly
<mdke> holiday?
<jsgotangco> no
<jsgotangco> he moved to a new job
<nixternal> ahhh...
<jsgotangco> he's still online but some family stuff happened
<Burgwork> the LP people can turn the team over to a new owner
<jsgotangco> but he'll be back soonish
<Burgwork> that is who I got the wiki and marketing teams
<Burgwork> s/who/how
<nixternal> or get rid of it, as the marketing team is doing the uwn now correct?
<Burgwork> sure, that works
<Burgwork> no need for all these little teams around
<bhuvan> mdke: ping
<mdke> hi
<bhuvan> i don't see the commit messages in #commits channel either
<bhuvan> any idea, who setup the client script in our repo?
<mdke> spads
<bhuvan> we should confirm the url/repository path/project name/etc and file permission are setup properly
<bhuvan> i would be glad to get a sample from subversion-dev team if you need one
<mdke> you can poke him on irc, if it helps
<bhuvan> ok. did you inform him this problem?
<mdke> not yet
<bhuvan> ok, i'll talk to him
<mdke> thanks
* mdke goes home
<bhuvan> mdke: i talked to Spads. He confirmed to fix the issue we face in 'log message'. he suggested to contact someone in #cia to forward the messages to #commits channel. later, we can contact micah@navi.cx to forward/redirect them to this channel! i'll take it up
<trappist> hey that last commit had a commit message in the rss :)
<nixternal> arg the patch cmd is making me mad
<DonSc> hey.  Anyone around using Edgy that can help me test something?
<crimsun> ...more specifically?
<DonSc> Alacarte.  I'm trying to write some docs for it for GNOME
<DonSc> It seems fairly broken to me.  Just wondering if it actually was, or whether I broke it somehow
<crimsun> didn't seem very broken last I tried it (three months or so ago). See if you can catch Travis Watkins, aka "Amaranth", on irc.
<LaserJock> he's been pretty busy the last couple weeks
<crimsun> yeah, he's neck-deep in several significant projects
<mdke> trappist: yeah, seems to be fixed :)
<DonSc> :( .  All the buttons are broken for me
<trappist> are we GNU/Linux people or just Linux (when referring to the whole shebang)
<crimsun> what whole shebang?
<trappist> the distribution.  is ubuntu a Linux distro or a GNU/Linux distro, policy-wise in the docs
<crimsun> the former.
<trappist> great.  do you know if that's documented anywhere?
<trappist> I don't recall seeing it in the styleguide.
<crimsun> http://www.ubuntu.com/ubuntu
<Burgwork> we try and avoid the whole issue
<Burgwork> but, yes, if forced, we just use Linux
<trappist> was just going through about-kubuntu.xml and it's full of GNU/Linux, which I hadn't run across before in the docs, is why I asked
<crimsun> interesting, there's a nice blurb on (workaround for) the xorg-server issue on the front page of www.ubuntu.com
<Burgwork> trappist, hmm, wonder who added that
<crimsun> Kubuntu conceivably chose its own string
<nixternal> i just found it interesting...chatting with the LUG people around here, some don't allow Ubuntu or talk about Ubuntu because we try to drop the whole Linux thing
<nixternal> they say Ubuntu isnt' Linux
<Burgwork> they are on crack
<nixternal> they bring up an interesting point though
<nixternal> i know we are linux, and so do they
<Burgwork> we are Ubuntu
<Burgwork> we are built on Linux. It is very important to establish our own brand
<trappist> svn blame makes it look like jriddel
<crimsun> if Kubuntu wants to use "GNU/Linux", that's fine by me
<crimsun> as long as everything's consistent across subflavors
<nixternal> but Ubuntu is still GNU/Linux no matter how you look it, and it seems that by us saying we are Ubuntu, nothing more and nothing less, has made them go ok, you dont' want to be linux, you want to be Ubuntu, then blah, then you aren't welcome in the LUG
<Burgwork> right
<Burgwork> I think GNU/Linux is akward
<nixternal> thats ok by me, we have Ubuntu Chicago..we don't need no stinkin' LUG
<nixternal> ;)
<Burgwork> plus the reality is, the word Linux has won
<nixternal> but right now, with Adam and the Chicago LUG, we are actually working on some collaboration stuff that started today
<Burgwork> yep
<nixternal> so we might be expanding our horizons here and possibly becoming Ubuntu-Illinois with sub chapters
<Burgwork> you will discover that there are a lot of oldschool Linux users who simply will not change
* nixternal is one
<nixternal> ;)
<nixternal> since 1994/95 it has been GNU/Linux for me ;)
<trappist> I wish somebody would just replace the GNU tools so we can drop the whole matter once and for all.
<crimsun> frankly, my stance is that if you have time to argue over the syntax, you're not using that time to live the mantra of social responsibility. Put your time where your mouth is, not the other way around.
<nixternal> good point
<Burgwork> indeed
<crimsun> (If you don't believe in social responsibility, why in the world do care about Freedom?)
<crimsun> do you, rather
<nixternal> i will point that out to the "offending LUG"
<nixternal> funny thing, they call themselve UFO, users of free operating systems
<nixternal> heh..
<trappist> so, for the docs, has someone made the decision that kubuntu is GNU/Linux and I should leave it alone?
<nixternal> they have banned *@ubuntu.com and others from posting to their list
<Burgwork> are you serious?
<trappist> that's just ridiculous.
<Burgwork> trappist, I think it shoudl be consistent
<nixternal> ya, because i now get the email saying im banned from the list
<trappist> Burgwork: I tend to agree.
<Burgwork> kubuntu uses gnu/linux
<Burgwork> kubuntu.org, that is
<nixternal> i sent one email asking for info and boom thats what i got
<nixternal> i think it should be consistant as well, whats good for the goose is good for the gander
<trappist> bleh.  so which one should the docs be consistent with?  who's authoritative on that?
<Burgwork> I would think consistent across a particular project is fine
<crimsun> trappist: there's no reason it has to be one way for all of them.
<trappist> I think the docs should be consistent across flavors, but I'm hesitant to step on anyone's toes by changing it if there's no consensus
<crimsun> I agree w/ Corey
<trappist> gotcha
* trappist svn reverts
<crimsun> (meaning I think it's fine if Ubuntu uses "Linux" and Kubuntu uses "GNU/Linux")
<trappist> that's not my opinion, but it makes sense
<trappist> crimsun: right
<trappist> hrm.  there's about 60 instances of GNU/Linux in trunk/ubuntu
<trappist> seems most of them refer to Debian though
<crimsun> yeah, that has to stay ("Debian GNU/Linux")
<LaserJock> do non-debian based distro's worry about this?
<LaserJock> I've run lots of distros and Ubuntu/Debian is the first one that I've heard of this
<Burgwork> not really
<Burgwork> most distros refer to it as Linux
<nixternal> Linux and GNU/Linux are the same thing anyways...Linux is cleaner looking than GNU/Linux imho
<nixternal> rock, paper, scissors, or pull from a hat to select the one to use ;)
#ubuntu-doc 2006-08-25
<nixternal> http://www.ubuntu.com/news/sunfire?highlight=%28GNU%29
<nixternal> ^^ who writes these articles?
<nixternal> the only thing on ubuntu.com that has anything to do with GNU/Linux is news related, otherwise it is null everywhere esle
<Burgwork> I can tell you who wrote that in a second
<Burgwork> Henrik wrote that
<nixternal> ahh..well he is the only person in all of Ubuntu land to have the GNU/Linux label
<nixternal> otherwise, it is Ubuntu and if you want to include Linux the way I see everywhere on the intarweb is (Linux-based operating system)
<nixternal> you are a fast sleeper there rob
<nixternal> and oh, btw, it is yet to become 'morrow' ;)
<rob> efficient
<rob> :)
<rob> it is for me, I just really woke up and am sipping a coffee
<Burgwork> hey rob 
<rob> hi Burgwork 
<poningru> youknowthekeyboardshortcutsdontchangeinedgyunlessyouturnoffX
<poningru> errrestartX
<poningru> andyeslikeanidiotImappedspacetomystart/pause
<poningru> thekeyboardshortuctguishouldsaythat...
* poningru should probaby report that bug
* nixternal tosses this out
<nixternal> https://help.ubuntu.com/kubuntu/desktopguide/C/introduction.html
<nixternal> the ToC, does it just look kind of out of place, hard to follow a little bit?
<LaserJock> yep
<LaserJock> it's a little weird having 3 top level items
<nixternal> there are 5 ways to find support/help or something about it
<LaserJock> and then having the 1st have like 9 items
<nixternal> ya, the 3 levels as well...getting kubuntu looks out of place
<LaserJock> yeah
<LaserJock> I think I would have just kept the top level
<nixternal> i wish robotgeek was around..he has been working on the new one, and asked for my help with splitting the guide...i haven't heard nor seen him in a week now
<LaserJock> but I don't know if that's possible
<nixternal> Well, I can see the "About" section, and then a "Support" or "Help" section
<nixternal> There are 2 references to support in the current "About" section
<nixternal> those could be moved to a support/help section, making the top part a little smaller
<nixternal> What is Linux and What is GNU could be merged into a "History of Linux" or "History of GNU/Linux"
<nixternal> heh, and in the GNU section, it doesn't give the recurrsive acronym info which makes it GNU and fun
* LaserJock rolls his eyes
<LaserJock> :-)
<nixternal> hehe
<Burgundavia> nixternal: we need to create a common doc for all that stuff
<nixternal> for like the Linux, GNU, Support right?
<Burgundavia> yep
<nixternal> cool..i will come up with a little something if the interest is there
<Burgundavia> go nuts
<nixternal> heh, thats easy ;)
<bhuvan> wow, we are the first ubuntu team to receive commit notification in #commits channel!
<nixternal> Burgundavia: http://paste.ubuntu-nl.org/21617    <- something sorted along the lines of this?
<Burgundavia> nixternal: yes, and mako wrote basically that for the official ubuntu book
<nixternal> heh, im still waiting for my copy to arrive
<Burgundavia> we should be able to get a electronic copy
<nixternal> true..
<nixternal> hell, if mako broke it down already, im sure he wouldn't mind us borrowing it for docs
<Burgundavia> it is already under the CCbysa
<Burgundavia> and besides, canonical owns the copyright to the entgire book
<nixternal> ok..i will put that on hold then, since our idea follows something already created..no need to double the work
<jsgotangco> hey
<nixternal> hiya jsgotangco!
<jsgotangco> what's this TOC about?
<Burgundavia> jsgotangco: a generic about ubuntu/the progject/linux/gnu page
<jsgotangco> that's a pretty long page for an about page ;)#
<nixternal> a one stop shop instead of an introduction.xml in every tree
<nixternal> that can definitely be made smaller, especially the projects portion
<Burgundavia> jsgotangco: think makos chapter in the bookj
<nixternal> as well as support maybe
<nixternal> it can be broken down into "History", "Projects", and "Support"
<Burgundavia> nixternal: you were a little over zealous with your removal. I will now be in town to teach package management
<nixternal> doh
<nixternal> i don't think i will be in town now ;)
<Burgundavia> what days work for you?
<nixternal> well..i will be in town, but afk
<Burgundavia> right
<nixternal> i know october == mexico for sure
<nixternal> september == school, and i am helping with a friend launch a new business
<nixternal> my saturdays and sundays, in the words of jsgotangco, won't be fun ;(
<jsgotangco> wow corey teaching packaging that's something new
<nixternal> hehe
<Burgundavia> jsgotangco: this is the commandline. You will love it!
<jsgotangco> packaging is ok, preseeding is much fun
<Burgundavia> I plan on teaching gai and synaptic
<Burgundavia> and saner ways of looking
<jsgotangco> oh you meant installing managing packages, not creating them from scratch
<Burgundavia> yep
<tonyyarusso> Speaking of packaging, I was told to read the Debian new maintainers guide some time; where is it?  (I thought it might be on the system hiding somewhere, but am not sure.)
<Burgundavia> if you are interested in packaging, save your sanity and read Laserjock's packaging guide first
<tonyyarusso> Link?
<Burgundavia> on your system
<jsgotangco> its in the Help system
<jsgotangco> although the Debian guid is the in-depth  guide
<tonyyarusso> Okay.
<nixternal> i would recommend at least skimming the deb guide first...and don't skim the ubuntu guide, as it will reak havoc
<tonyyarusso> Why's that?
<nixternal> well, the deb guide, like Burgundavia said is very in-depth, but it has some things that will help you i think with debuilder and what not...as for the ubuntu version...it is nice and compact
<crimsun> this version of the UPG is designed for linear progression
<nixternal> oh ya, and crimsun said i should read the debian guide first a while back..i kind of listened
<crimsun> that was probably bad advice.
<crimsun> you should really read them in parallel
<nixternal> you might have told me that actually, i skimmed one and read the other ;)
<crimsun> (sometimes I forget what it's like not to have read it)
<tonyyarusso> Is UPG == Laserjock's?
<crimsun> the Ubuntu Packaging Guide
<crimsun> (yes)
<jsgotangco> mostly yes
<jsgotangco> but he led its development
<tonyyarusso> Just clarifying.
<tonyyarusso> Okay, meanwhile, back partially to the original question, where is the deb guide?  (Need offline viewable version)
<crimsun> the 'debian-policy' and 'maint-guide' packages.
<crimsun> there are translations.
<jsgotangco> for great justice
<crimsun> for Python policy, the WIP of the spec is at http://www.golden-gryphon.com/software/manoj-policy/
<tonyyarusso> crimsun: Thanks.
<lloydinho> nixternal, thanks for the comments on the Contribute doc. Do you mind if I reply to the comments on the list?
<lloydinho> That way everybody can join the discussion.
<onkarshinde> I wasn't sure where to suggest this change. The wiki page for EdgyKnot2 says, 'GNOME 2.15 rc1' (heading), while the description says 2,16 beta 2
<lloydinho> hi onkarshinde, well spotted. After asking seb128, the Ubuntu GNOME maintainer, I updated the wiki page.
<lloydinho> For future reference, when it comes to release documents like this, it's best to ask on ubuntu-devel.
<lloydinho> But thanks for your vigilance :-)
<onkarshinde> lloydinho: After reporting here, I found that Corey has given his mail address for suggestions/comments. But I avoided a mail for this small issue. Anyway, release notes get reviewed many times. So this would be caught someway.
<lloydinho> onkarshinde, cool. Well, then that's settled. I'm sure that if it is an easy fix, you can make the change yourself as long as you note it in the wiki page changelog.
<onkarshinde> lloydinho: Ok. :-)
<nixternal> lloydinho: if you are still around, and haven't done so already, reply away to the comments! ;)
<lloydinho> nixternal, cool. It's sent to the list.
<Burgwork> lloydinho, the difference is becuase I could not remember
<lloydinho> Burgwork, It's cool. I had no idea myself until I asked seb. :-)
<LaserJock> heh, "Ubuntu's sister flavours"
<Burgwork> LaserJock, what is that from?
<LaserJock> Andreas' contributing wiki page
<LaserJock> he replaced "derivatives"
<Burgwork> right
<Burgwork> partner projects in the term we shoud be using
<Burgwork> derivatives for non-partners
<LaserJock> in his email he said he was talking with Kamion about it
<Burgwork> the website and everything else calls it partner projects
<LaserJock> and it sounds like they are working on "offical" terminology
<LaserJock> hmm, partner projects seems a little distant to me
<LaserJock> better than derivative for sure
<LaserJock> I like flavor but maybe that's just me
<LaserJock> as I think it is important to keep in mind that they all come from the same repositories
<LaserJock> or is that "channels" now ;-)
<Burgwork> projects makes it clear they are seperate
<Burgwork> and partner sounds fluffy and nice
<LaserJock> well, I guess it depends on how you look at it
<LaserJock> glass half-full kinda thing
<LaserJock> I feel like the are more connected then seperate
<LaserJock> but that might be because of my de neutrality ;-)
<LaserJock> anyway, "Ubuntu's sister flavours" just sounds wrong
<Burgwork> can I taste the women on the warty artwork? ;)
<LaserJock> heh
<poningru> rofl
<LaserJock> Burgwork: http://google-code-updates.blogspot.com/2006/08/crossing-ubucon.html
<Burgwork> LaserJock, leslie emailled me
#ubuntu-doc 2006-08-26
<Madpilot> hi all
<LaserJock> hi Madpilot
<Madpilot> hi LaserJock - what's up?
<LaserJock> oh, not a whole lot
<LaserJock> working on things
* mdke has a go at Modem documentation, fails at the first hurdle
<nixternal> yay, the wiki is crap today!
<nixternal> knot 2 release in 5 days...im cleaning up the kubuntu stuff as well as adding updated stuff
<nixternal> why is the wiki always slow?
<crimsun> you crazy Chicago people are clogging up the internet tubes.
<nixternal> hehe
<nixternal> the internet tubes need to be greesed to allow less friction, in turn providing more speed
<nixternal> 2m47s since i clicked "submit" on the wiki
<nixternal> 3m11s total
<nixternal> gahahah...launchpad mailing list..the response by scott to "my launchpad doesn't work"...that is awesome, needs to be bashed
<nixternal> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/launchpad-users/2006-August/000572.html
<mdke> nixternal: it's because there are so many pages
<erdalronah1> Hi doc-team, will the translations of "desktopguide" automatically be exported into html, pdf and xml?
<mdke> erdalronah1: for dapper yes. For edgy, unlikely
<mdke> oh, automatically, no
<mdke> for dapper we'll continue to update manually every once in a while
<erdalronah1> So we should concentrate on translating in Dapper?
<mdke> yes please
<mdke> we haven't uploaded any pot templates to Edgy
<mdke> (the ones you see in Rosetta have been ported from Dapper)
<erdalronah1> well, they did in the last few days
<erdalronah1> they are being uploaded into Edgy at the moment
<erdalronah1> AFAIK they are being superseeded with the edgy templates at the moment
<mdke> let me clarify
<mdke> there are no pot templates in the Ubuntu archive for edgy in the ubuntu-docs package
<erdalronah1> ha, ok
<erdalronah1> now I got it
<mdke> in Rosetta, the dapper ones appear under edgy too, because of how Rosetta manages things
<mdke> it's a pain. I'll sort out some templates for Edgy asap
<erdalronah1> We are translating for ku (Kurdish), there are no Kurdish html pages yet
<mdke> for dapper? I'll try and sort that out too
<erdalronah1> that would be great
<erdalronah1> very motivating, you know :)
<mdke> the dapper package should be quite up to date though
<erdalronah1> the package? in Yelp? or where can I see that
<mdke> yes
<erdalronah1> is it in the daily langpacks?
<mdke> nope, in ubuntu-docs
<erdalronah1> Well, I cannot see it in Yelp
<erdalronah1> I doubt it is there
<erdalronah1> That's why I ask for the html's
<erdalronah1> ;)
<mdke> erdalronah1: we updated the translations maybe the week before last. The html will be the same as the xml ;)
<erdalronah1> hmm, but there is no Kurdish html, or I didn't find it
<erdalronah1> https://help.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/desktopguide/ku/index.html
<erdalronah1> does not exist
<erdalronah1> maybe we started after that
<erdalronah1> that is possible
<mdke> I didn't update that, the most up to date is the xml you see in yelp
<erdalronah1> doesn't that come with Pitti's daily langpacks?
<mdke> no, with ubuntu-docs (6.06.3 is the latest)
<erdalronah1> ok
<erdalronah1> understood
<erdalronah1> and that is updated from time to time, right?
<mdke> that's right
<erdalronah1> ok, thanks a lot. If you should update the html (and pdf) again, please don't forget to create a ku version.
<nixternal> mdke: i know there are a lot of pages, but a minute plus wait isn't acceptable by any means i think...and this is common for me, i don't know about anyone else
<fredl> hi, the fix for the upgrade issue with xorg should include instructions for how to set the proxy server in text mode when somebody needs it
<fredl> Please add 'If you use an HTTP proxy server, before you do apt-get update/apt-get upgrade, type export http_proxy=http://server:port' to http://www.ubuntu.com/FixForUpgradeIssue
<fredl> or something along those lines.
#ubuntu-doc 2006-08-27
<Riddell> anyone doing ubuntu weekly newsletter this week?
<LaserJock> have no idea
<Burgundavia> Riddell, LaserJock: yes, myself, but I will working on it later
<Burgundavia> feel free to work on it
<rob> hey, is the wiki down at the moment?
<poningru> yeah
<poningru> cant do uwn :(
<mdke> nixternal: I didn't say it was acceptable, you asked why so I told you
<fredl> is anybody here with access to www.ubuntu.com ?
<Burgundavia> fredl: yes, what is the issue?
<fredl> Burgundavia, yesterday I helped somebody solve the xorg problem, he only had access to a http proxy server.
<Burgundavia> yep
<fredl> The document at http://www.ubuntu.com/FixForUpgradeIssue could be updated to have 'export http_proxy=http://server:port' in there so people who only have access through a proxy can upgrade the server
<fredl> most people don't know that apt supports that, although I'm not sure many people will read that page from textmode.
<Burgundavia> right
<Burgundavia> can you file a bug against ubuntu-website?
<Burgundavia> I am not really wanting to change that page
<fredl> sure I can, but how come you don't want to?
<Burgundavia> because I didn't create or edit that page
<Burgundavia> and I don't have time to test what you just said, so I won't add it
<trappist> I didn't know apt respected http_proxy - I thought it had to be configured specifically for apt
<Burgundavia> trappist: indded
<fredl> trappist - nope, it works. I dunno if #ubuntu is logged, but you can check it in the log if it's there. The guy was going through pains to get the newest xorg through his iPod, and I told him to just export http_proxy instead and it worked.
<trappist> fredl: I have logs, but... please feel free to file that bug yourself.  I file bugs all the time on things I have no involvement in.
<fredl> anyway, where do I file a bug against ubuntu-website?
<Burgundavia> on launchpad, against the product ubuntu-website
<fredl> hmm can't find that package...
<fredl> ok filed.
<fredl> ciao
<Burgundavia> crimsun: you around?
<nalioth> howdy y'all
<nalioth> is the wiki undergoing downtime or something?
<nalioth> is there anyone here?
<LaserJock> kinda
<nalioth> the *#&&@#$($ bug reporting site won't let me file a bug
<LaserJock> and I have no idea
<mdke> the wiki works fine for me
<mdke> it was down yesterday but is up since this morning
<nalioth> i just got a wildly colored moinmoin breakdown.  i filed a bug
<mdke> you got a traceback?
<mdke> where did you file the bug, and do you know what caused the problem?
<mdke> is it like bug 57894?
<Ubugtu> Malone bug 57894 in ubuntu-website "Ubuntu Wiki Error: "IndexErrorstring index out of range"" [Untriaged,Unconfirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/57894
<nalioth> why am i getting an email for the bug i filed?
<mdke> that's how the bug tracker works, it sends you email
<nalioth> mdke:  it's number 57920
<mdke> yes, looks the same as the one above
<nalioth> i didn't understand the above description, or i'd have confirmed it instead of filing a new one
<mdke> well, the error is identical
<mdke> hopefully someone will look at it soon
<nalioth> i prefer plain english descriptions to the above (which i can't understand)
<mdke> jolly good
<nalioth> ok, "This bug is not an ubuntu error."  WHERE does one file bugs against the websites ?
<LaserJock> the ubuntu website
<LaserJock> ?
<LaserJock> I think that is ubuntu-website
<nalioth> LaserJock: that doesnt work, seveas suggested it
<Seveas> nalioth, I gave you the complete url later on
<Seveas> /products/ubuntu-website/+filebug
<nalioth> Seveas: ty
<crimsun> Burgundavia: pong
#ubuntu-doc 2007-08-20
* Starting logfile irclogs/ubuntu-doc.log
* Starting logfile irclogs/ubuntu-doc.log
<CIA-32> Ubuntu Documentation: philbull * r4280 ubuntu/windows/C/preparing.xml: Sync with ubuntu/switching/C/preparing.xml
<CIA-32> Ubuntu Documentation: philbull * r4281 ubuntu/internet/C/networking.xml: Updated to reflect new sudi prompt
<CIA-32> Ubuntu Documentation: philbull * r4282 ubuntu/switching/C/ (preparing.xml whyswitch.xml): Reviewed preparing and whyswitch from the switching guide
<CIA-32> Ubuntu Documentation: philbull * r4283 ubuntu/switching/C/ (migratingdata.xml preparing.xml): Reviewed migratingdata, updating statuses
<CIA-32> Ubuntu Documentation: mdke * r4284 debian/rules: small change to path to install serverguide sample files (LP: 133159)
<jappie> I got dual head working thanks to the RadeonDriver topic on the community documentation wiki
<jappie> thanks to everybody
#ubuntu-doc 2007-08-21
* Starting logfile irclogs/ubuntu-doc.log
* Starting logfile irclogs/ubuntu-doc.log
<mdke> mpt: I'd quite like to hear your views on the bzr issue, given that you're one of the few of us with a knowledge of the docteam processes and of bzr at the same time
<mpt> mdke, which bzr issue?
<mdke> mpt: https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-doc/2007-August/009106.html
<mpt> mdke, bzr's speed will continue to improve over the coming months
<mpt> I have reported bugs on poor upload/download feedback, but I don't know when those will be fixed.
<mpt> Another advantage that exists now is that people can easily work on multiple branches simultaneously -- instead of doing one, waiting for it to be reviewed, fixing it from the review, waiting for it to be checked in, then starting on the next change
<mpt> (That may be possible with svn too without downloading a whole new copy of the source tree, but I don't know how)
<mdke> hmm
<mdke> mpt: interesting
<mdke> mpt: would you mind posting to the mailing list about it (doesn't have to be today). I've got to disappear to work now
<mpt> ok
<mdke> thanks
* mdke disappears
<jjesse> nixternal_: spent some time last night reveiwing docs and i still need to change/update add-applications.xml and everything else looks good so far
<CIA-32> Ubuntu Documentation: philbull * r4285 ubuntu/switching/C/preparing.xml: Updating status of reviewed sections
<jono> hi all
<jono> is the packaging guide available as a PDF?
<jjesse> i thought it was
<jjesse> on help.ubuntu.com
<jono> I can't find it jjesse
<jjesse> jono: hmm looking
<jjesse> https://help.ubuntu.com/6.06/pdf/ubuntu/C/packagingguide.pdf
<jjesse> https://help.ubuntu.com/6.10/pdf/ubuntu/C/packagingguide.pdf
<jjesse> for 6.10 and for 6.06
<jjesse> dont kow if any changed for 7.10?
<jjesse> jono: did you see those?
<jono> thanks jjesse
<jjesse> np jono
<LaserJock> mdke: still awake?
<mdke> LaserJock: yes, briefly
<LaserJock> bzr thing
<mdke> ya
<LaserJock> I think it could be worthwhile to look into having a common branch
<mdke> I really think we'd need to keep the same structure
<LaserJock> then having ubuntu, kubuntu, edubuntu, and xubuntu branches
<mdke> hrm
<LaserJock> I think we could fairly easily provide a script that would put them together in the right places
<mdke> I'm just concerned about the potential divergence and confusion that might arise from so many branches
<LaserJock> yes, that's understandable
<LaserJock> maybe we can ask the bzr people about some of that
<mdke> also, problems caused by the shared docs
<mdke> on the other hand, I'm worried that it's not a conventional way to host packages in bzr (i.e. having the debian directories randomly around the place)
<mdke> but then again, we do it in svn :)
<LaserJock> yeah, but it's kinda a pain in the butt
<mdke> it's ugly
<LaserJock> for edubuntu I can't just take the edubuntu/ and make a package out of it
<mdke> yes
<LaserJock> I've got to make sure I move/remove things to make it right
<mdke> I think resolving that issue is really independent of the bzr move issue
<LaserJock> kinda
<mdke> the point is really that we can do in bzr what we currently do in svn
<LaserJock> in svn it's easy to checkout a subdirectory
<LaserJock> I don't think bzr can do that presently
<mdke> no biggie though, you generally need all our directories
<mdke> even for edubuntu you need the common directories
<LaserJock> I also find the sysadmin overhead argument to be a little lame
<LaserJock> sure, but it would make sense to me to have "doc-base" and then "edubuntu" branches
<mdke> LaserJock: well, if the sysadmins find it a pain, we have to listen
<LaserJock> sure
<CIA-32> Ubuntu Documentation: philbull * r4286 ubuntu/hardware/C/hardware.xml: Merged power management into laptops, linked to touchpads from input section
<LaserJock> but people have been doing CVS/SVN repo hosting for a long time
<mdke> I don't really like the idea of having to get two branches to make a whole
<LaserJock> the sysadmins are here to help us
<LaserJock> so I'm not sure we should make that an overwhelming factor
<CIA-32> Ubuntu Documentation: philbull * r4287 ubuntu/libs/gnome-menus-C.ent: Added several new entities (oodraw, touchpad, etc)
<LaserJock> possible svn repo downtime vs LP downtime might be better to look at
<mdke> is that a biggie? both are almost always up; and even whe LP is down, local commits should avoid problems
<LaserJock> well, did the svn repo go down?
<mdke> I can't remember it ever having gone down
<mdke> at least since I've been a contributor
<LaserJock> k, that's a good thing :-)
<mdke> my memory is quite bad though
<LaserJock> I just wondered what happened with the "compromise"
<LaserJock> we lost doc.ubuntu.com right?
<mdke> no, the svn server is in the datacentre
<mdke> right
<LaserJock> so it comes down to the Canonical sysadmins not wanting to support svn
<mdke> yes
<mdke> we're the only project using it, I think
<mdke> I have to go to bed; email?
<LaserJock> I might
<LaserJock> I'm mostly fine with the bzr thing
<mdke> please do :)
<LaserJock> I just wanted a quick chat
* mdke nods
<LaserJock> haven't talked with you for a while ;-)
<mdke> we should have a meeting if people start thinking the same way
* mdke hugs LaserJock 
* LaserJock hugs mdke back
<mdke> night
<LaserJock> cya
<LaserJock> so, is anybody here a docuMENTEE? :-)
<LaserJock> theCore: ping
<theCore> LaserJock: hi
<LaserJock> theCore: anything happening with the packaging guide?
<theCore> nothing yet, I have been too busy with Python core development
<LaserJock> you might want to have a look at http://wiki.debian.org/DebianPackagingHandbook
<LaserJock> more specifically see who's doing it and perhaps if the want to collaborate
<LaserJock> I think it'd help if more Debian people got pulled in as well
<LaserJock> there's really no reason why a packaging guide can't be worked on jointly
#ubuntu-doc 2007-08-22
<theCore> indeed
<theCore> I will probably have some free time for the guide in mid September, after I finish my Python project
<theCore> but until then, I am not sure if I can commit to anything
<LaserJock> might be best if for Gutsy the packaging guide just gets looked over for stuff that needs to be updated
<LaserJock> and not adding any new content really
<theCore> Hmm... I still have my notes about packaging lying around.
<theCore> I think I will polish them up, and put them in the guide
<theCore> and I still have a half written blog post "Debian Packaging 101 (Part 2)"
<theCore> in which, I mostly talk about creating a good packaging environment
<mdke> morning all
<popey> morning
<dsas> moin popey
<mdke> hiya popey, good move with the screencasts mailing list
<popey> hey dsas, long time no type
<popey> thanks mdke
<mdke> is it going well?
<popey> kinda
<popey> i have a major blitz planned
<popey> 30 screencasts in 30 days
<mdke> good
<mdke> whoa
<mdke> we haven't got anywhere to adding links in the documentation
<popey> zero to hero
<mdke> do you fancy preparing a list of suitable screencasts to be added?
<popey> funny you should say that mdke :)
<popey> it was suggested to me that screencasts should be more integral to apps
<mdke> then we'll get our minions *cough* docuMENTORS on the job
* popey is writing a spec
<mdke> popey: right. But adding links to the documentation is something easy we can probably do now
<popey> sure, but only once there is content?
<popey> and there is currently very little
<mdke> yes, of course.
<mdke> oh, ok
<popey> i.e. I would wait until there was a critical mass, if that makes sense
<mdke> popey: ok, let us know how it goes :)
<popey> wilco
<popey> i have a meeting at canonical tomorrow about it
<mdke> oh rly
<popey> hopefully it can be moved on a bit
<popey> ya rly
<popey> brekkie time!
<mdke> about integrating them into the desktop?
<popey> yes
<mdke> nice
<mdke> interesting to get a balance between screencasts and documentation
<popey> agreed
<mdke> good luck with that
<mdke> and let us know how it goes :)
<popey> sure
<mdke> popey: if we could find a way to integrate videos with yelp, then we could integrate both documentation and screencasts alongside each other better into the desktop
* mdke -> work :(
<dsas> popey: Indeed :) I've finished at uni now, so I've got a real job and I'm back living close to Sara, so I've cut down my involvement in many things Ubuntu.
<popey> ahh, the influence of real life :)
<dsas> aye :), someones started an nderbys LUG though, so maybe Real Life and Linux will merge more closely again.
<CIA-32> Ubuntu Documentation: mantha * r4288 debian/changelog: committed changelog for 7.07.2 upload
<mpt> http://ask.metafilter.com/69793/
<nixternal> clonezilla is the way to go for something like this
<Gwaihir> mdke: is there a way of having a bzr checkout of gnome-user-docs/ubuntu-change in some sort of tarball? I'm behind a dial-up and in 3 hours I've seen no progress...
<jjesse> Gwaihir: are you doing a bzr branch or bzr checkout?  i thought i read bzr checkout is faster cause you don't download the history?
<Gwaihir> I'm doing a bzr checkout...
<jjesse> hmm don't know for sure if there is a tarball
<Gwaihir> If it's faster than bzr branch... I don't know how slow should it be...
<Gwaihir> anyway... i'll wait and see... :)
<Gwaihir> hmmm... I'll stop and restart... I see there's a --lightweight option that maybe could useful...
<mpt> "Lightweight checkouts depend on access to the branch for every operation."
<mpt> So if you use --lightweight, your commits will take longer (on dial-up, probably much longer)
<mpt> and so will your merges
<mpt> If you want to invest some time (and learning) now to make branching faster, I suggest setting up a local repository
<mpt> see "bzr init-repository --help"
<Gwaihir> I'll check it out...
<mpt> Then create your branches within the repository
* mpt hopes he's not talking nonsense
* jjesse understands
<mpt> http://bazaar-vcs.org/SharedRepositoryTutorial
<Gwaihir> oh.. that's a good resource...
<mpt> If you maintain a local copy of mainline, you can make each new branch from that, rather than branching from Launchpad each time
<mpt> That should cut your branching time down to a minute or less
<Gwaihir> got it... (think and hope) easier to maintain with a dial-up...
<mpt> then you can run "bzr pull" on your copy of mainline, when convenient, to update it
<mpt> (The longer you leave it without updating, the more likely your branches will have conflicts when people try to merge them)
<mpt> Sorry, by "mainline" I mean "trunk"
<Gwaihir> yes... I'm starting to know bzr now... and made a little confusion with terminology coming from SVN
<Gwaihir> if I lost the connection or have to shutdown the PC... how am I supposed to restart branching? simply by bzr branch http://... again from inside the directory?
<jjesse> i don't know, but i think so
<Gwaihir> I'll ask on #bzr ;)
<CIA-32> Ubuntu Documentation: lucius * r4289 xubuntu/switching/C/applications.xml: patch from george
<CIA-32> Ubuntu Documentation: lucius * r4290 xubuntu/printing/C/printing.xml: other patch by george
<CIA-32> Ubuntu Documentation: lucius * r4291 xubuntu/switching/C/applications.xml: oops, i missed that george provided a slightly updated version of his first patch, so here comes the update
<sommer> hey all.  I was following: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/Contribute and when I get the the make part it works fine.
<sommer> except the links to the server documentation area ping to genhelp:basic-commands
<sommer> just wondering if there's something I've done wrong?
<sommer> point/ping
<mdke> sommer: that's normal; nothing you've done wrong.
<sommer> mdke: ah...I updated the mail.xml file Dovecot section and I was testing to make sure everything looks good.
<sommer> is there another way to view that content in a browser?
<mdke> sommer: best way is to view the xml file directly in Yelp
<sommer> mdke: okay, I did that and everything looks good.
<mdke> :)
<sommer> should the contrib page be updated?
<mdke> sommer: the other thing is to check the document using the validate.sh script
<mdke> sommer: sure, you can include that in your patch if you like
<sommer> mdke: cool thanks for your help.
<mdke> thanks for your efforts
<LaserJock> mdke: "There are 27 direct members of the "Ubuntu Documentation Project" team, and 73 people are members in total, directly and indirectly" is that going to cause problems if we use ~ubuntu-doc for access control?
<mdke> LaserJock: I don't know, but we'd certainly have to think about the appropriate way to structure things.
<CIA-33> Ubuntu Documentation: lucius * r4292 xubuntu/libs/xubuntu.ent: update location of thunar and terminal in the applications menu. closes LP #132462
<ubotu> Launchpad bug 132462 in ubuntu-doc "Xubuntu help list terminal located at Application>System>Terminal" [Medium,Confirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/132462
<jjesse> ooo i love it when bugs get closed :)
<jrib> is wiki.ubuntu.com not aware of the help.ubuntu.com/community wiki?  I can't find it on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/InterWiki
<LaserJock> no, they are separate, I believe completely
<LaserJock> hi jjesse
<jrib> but wiki.ubuntu.com is aware of wikis like PythonWiki.  Is there a reason not to allow InterWiki links from wiki.ubuntu.com to help.ubuntu.com/community?
<jjesse> hiya LaserJock
<LaserJock> jrib: I guess we never thought of it
<LaserJock> jrib: they are supposed to be pretty orthogonal
<LaserJock> jrib: but maybe ask the list, it's a good question
<jrib> help.ubuntu.com/community does have wiki.ubuntu.com in its InterWiki page so I found it strange
<jrib> LaserJock: thanks, I'll mail ubuntu-doc about it then
<LaserJock> ah, well I doubt wiki.ubuntu.com has been touched much since the wiki was split
<jjesse> for a note is it <note> <para>text</para></note>
#ubuntu-doc 2007-08-23
<jjesse> or <note>text</note> ?
<LaserJock> I think I use <para>
<LaserJock> usually it doesn't hurt
<jjesse> so <note><para>
<LaserJock> yeah
<LaserJock> that *should* work
<jjesse> cool
<jjesse> been awhiule since i did work :(
<LaserJock> me too
<LaserJock> but grepping the packaging guide shows that I use <note><para>
<nixternal> <note><title>This is for jjesse</title>
<nixternal> <para>do it like this!</para>
<nixternal> </note>
<nixternal> :)  you don't need to use title of course
<mdke> morning all
<jjesse> nixternal: i'm in the midst of a rewrite of add-applications.xmlo
<nixternal> groovy
<ubotu> New bug: #134296 in ubuntu-docs (main) "Broken link in Using preseeding on help.ubuntu.com" [Undecided,New]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/134296
<mdke> evening all
<j1mc> hi mdke
<fijam> hello
#ubuntu-doc 2007-08-24
<ubotu> New bug: #134509 in ubuntu-docs (main) "[gutsy]  gnucash-docs is missing illustrations" [Undecided,New]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/134509
<ddelony> I'm new to the documentation team.
<ddelony> I'm interested in editing the GaimHowto Wiki page. It's marked for Category Cleanup. What specifically is wrong with it?
<ddelony> Of course, the entry is very wordy.
<ddelony> It appears that the  SwitchingToUbuntu/FromMacOSX wiki page needs some help. I'm also a Mac OS X user, so I think I can help with it.
<jjesse> ddelony awesome
<ddelony> At first I'm going to re-word some sentences.
<ddelony> Okay, I made some changes to the "Installing Software" section of the wiki page. I'd like some feedback.
<jjesse> what's the link?
<ddelony> htps://help.ubuntu.com/community/SwitchingToUbuntu/FromMacOSX
<ddelony> Oops https://help.ubuntu.com/community/SwitchingToUbuntu/FromMacOSX
<ddelony> I wonder if I should delete the "environment variables" section. Most Mac OS X users have no Unix experience, and don't know about them.
<jjesse> hmm thinking
<ddelony> I was also thinking about adding a session on replacements for "creative professional" apps like Photoshop and Final Cut Pro.
<jjesse> sorry for the delay
<jjesse> busy at work
<ddelony> That's alright.
<jjesse> ddelony: that would be nice to have that information on replacing final cut and photoshop
<ddelony> The Photoshop replacement is obvious: GIMP, but what about Final Cut Pro?
<ddelony> Actually, the page already mentions advance video-editing programs.\
<ddelony> Okay, I've added info about Pro apps.
<jjesse> Admiral_Chicago: surving the storms in chiago?
<Admiral_Chicago> jjesse: worse, i'm at school in monmouth
<Admiral_Chicago> jjesse: we lost power for 24 hrs
<j1mc> it's because of the electricity that our laptops created working on documentation.
<j1mc> it disturbed the upper atmosphere of our planet, causing massive storms.
<jjesse> grin that's funny
<ddelony> I'm currently working on this page: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/SwitchingToUbuntu/FromMacOSX
<ddelony> I'm thinking of deleting the reference to environment variables. What's so special about them for Mac users?
<CIA-33> Ubuntu Documentation: lucius * r4293 /trunk/ (4 files in 4 dirs): 3 patches from jim; small fix to ship about-xubuntu
<ddelony> Ok, I've made changes to the wiki page. What do you think about them?
#ubuntu-doc 2007-08-25
<CIA-33> Ubuntu Documentation: bhuvan * r4294 generic/server/C/mail.xml:
<CIA-33> Ubuntu Documentation: Tweaks to dovecot section.
<CIA-33> Ubuntu Documentation: Patch by: Adam Sommer
<CIA-33> Ubuntu Documentation: bhuvan * r4295 generic/server/C/mail.xml:
<CIA-33> Ubuntu Documentation: Merge the changes r4157 and r4093 from serverguide/C/mail.xml to
<CIA-33> Ubuntu Documentation: server/C/mail.xml.
<CIA-33> Ubuntu Documentation: bhuvan * r4296 generic/serverguide/C/mail.xml:
<CIA-33> Ubuntu Documentation: Merge the changes r4294 from server/C/mail.xml to
<CIA-33> Ubuntu Documentation: serverguide/C/mail.xml.
<CIA-33> Ubuntu Documentation: nixternal * r4297 kubuntu/debian/ (changelog rules): update Kubuntu debian for packaging
#ubuntu-doc 2008-08-18
<brousch_> If I am adding information from a random blog to an official wiki page, what's the best way to attribute the information?
#ubuntu-doc 2008-08-19
<MagicFab> Hi all - who would be able to revert to previous pages at https://help.ubuntu.com/community/ ?
<jjesse_> nixternal: i think i may have duplicated a section in systemsettings tried a bzr undo to revert teh changes hope it doesn't mess thingsup
<mrksbrd> anyone here
<mdke> jjesse_: you should bind your branch to the Launchpad branch as described here - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/Repository#Publishing%20changes
<mdke> jjesse_: that way when you merge you don't steal nixternal's commits :)
<mdke> jjesse_: and instead of merging you can just use "bzr update" as with svn
<magicfab> hi all
<magicfab> who would have rights to revert a wiki page to a previous version ?
<magicfab> Someone edited https://help.ubuntu.com/community/RestrictedFormats/PlayingDVDs and put their own scripts / references there, also removing important version specific info
<brousch_> Can someone help me understand the last bullet point on this page: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/WikiGuide/Communication
<mdke> magicfab: i do, I'll check it out a bit later
<mdke> brousch_: go ahead
<brousch_> mdke, go ahead?
<mdke> brousch_: what's your question?
<mdke> magicfab: reverted
<brousch_> I don't understand that last bullet point. My brain cannot parse the sentence.
<brousch_> So I guess my question is: Can someone restate the sentence in a different way that is less confusing?
<mdke> brousch_: ah. It means "don't insert a link to unreviewed pages on top level or second level pages in the wiki"
<mdke> the top level page is the homepage, and the second level pages are those pages linked on the homepage, like "Multimedia"
<brousch_> mdke, ah, thank you!
<mdke> brousch_: no worries, I'll try and rephrase the bullet point :)
<magicfab> mdke - great! thanks!
#ubuntu-doc 2008-08-20
<sigint> hello all
<sigint> i was wondering how I can get involved with the Documentation team
<mdke> morning all
<bhuvan> hi mdke, morning
<mdke> hiya bhuvan, how's it going?
<bhuvan> hi mdke, going good. bit busy with projects these days.
<mdke> sounds good
#ubuntu-doc 2008-08-22
<mdke> morning all
<helpy> hi i want to help in documentation
<helpy> can someone tell me how to get started ?
<helpy> ?
#ubuntu-doc 2008-08-23
<Kamping_Kaiser> hi all.
<Kamping_Kaiser> sommer, if i check out the docs using   bzr branch lp:ubuntu-doc , how big would i expect the download to be?
<sommer> Kamping_Kaiser: about 60 megs
#ubuntu-doc 2008-08-24
<JordiGH> Is there any official position regarding the GFDL?
<Flannel> It's a nice acronym, sort of round in some parts, and square in others.  It's almost sort of symmetrical, if you squint a little.
<JordiGH> I guess that means, "we don't give a damn"?
<Flannel> JordiGH: I have no idea, I'm certainly not the one to ask.  Burgundavia might be.
<Burgundavia> Flannel: what?
<JordiGH> Kay.
<Flannel> Burgundavia: 11:36 < JordiGH> Is there any official position regarding the GFDL?
<Burgundavia> all ubuntu doc stuff is still dual licensed, afaik
<Burgundavia> cc bysa and gfdl
<mdke> JordiGH: no, we relicensed our documentation to cc-by-sa like over a year ago
<mdke> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/License
 * mdke smacks Burgundavia
<JordiGH> mdke: Hm, I think I'm asking in the wrong place. I was wondering if overall Ubuntu had any issues with GFDLed docs.
<mdke> JordiGH: no, not as far as I know. There are lots of them in the main Ubuntu repository
<mdke> which is the repository used for supported software which fits all of our requirements for free software
<JordiGH> So Ubuntu ignores the main/contrib/non-free separations that Debian makes, takes everything, and redistributes everything in their own way.
<mdke> JordiGH: well, I don't know exactly what relationship there is between the Ubuntu and Debian components, but they are certainly at least partly independent
<mdke> most Gnome documentation is licensed under GDFL, and that's in Ubuntu's main repository
<JordiGH> Yeah, I see.
#ubuntu-doc 2009-08-17
<dhillon-v10> Rocket2DMn: Hi, how are you
<dhillon-v10> j1mc: hi
<dhillon-v10> guys is anyone here
<starcraftman> dhillon-v10: I am, relaxing atm.
<dhillon-v10>  starcraftman: How are you
<starcraftman> dhillon-v10: Oh, ok. Just finished my wiki page, almost done. I been doing a large overhaul to the backup documentation. Still need to clean up some formatting, but the content is sound.
<starcraftman> dhillon-v10: If your interested > https://help.ubuntu.com/community/BackupYourSystem/TAR
<dhillon-v10> starcraftman: Alright, that's a good resource, you are smart :)
<starcraftman> dhillon-v10: how you been? Found a place to pitch in?
<dhillon-v10> starcraftman: Yah, with you guys helping I am modifying wikis, and looking forward to update parts of system guide
<starcraftman> dhillon-v10: Naw not really, wiki editing isn't that hard. Not like programming, it's mostly text and markup.
<dhillon-v10> starcraftman:  I wanna konw a good place for solving bugs related to pulseaudio and other sound problems
<dhillon-v10> starcraftman: hey i gotta go thanks and talk to you later :)
<ffffffffff> if a community wiki page appears to be a duplicate, do i need to log a bug in addition to tagging the page?
<starcraftman> ffffffffff: not to my knowledge, I just usually tag them as duplicate and await moderation. Also be sure to comment at the top a link to suspected duplicate.
<ffffffffff> thanks "starcraftman"
<starcraftman> ffffffffff: no problem, new member? Haven't seen ya round before. Interesting choice for nick also.
<ffffffffff> no i'm just unemployed
<ffffffffff> also i chose this nickname to make it hard to type
<starcraftman> ffffffffff:  Why would it be hard to type? IRC has autocomplete, two ff and a tab.
<starcraftman> Well, plenty of wiki pages to clean up, thanks for your participation.
<dhillon-v10> starcraftman: hi
<starcraftman> dhillon-v10: 'lo dhillon-v10
<dhillon-v10> starcraftman: how are you
<starcraftman> dhillon-v10: good, just assembled large shelving unit.
<dhillon-v10> starcraftman: Are you a member of ubuntu, I mean do you have an email address like ...@ubuntu.com
<starcraftman> dhillon-v10: No not yet, I likely ought apply sometime. I've been around quite a while. Maybe later in the year, I should get testimonials before.
<dhillon-v10> starcraftman: I have been editing wikis and such but how long do I have to wait to apply for that
<starcraftman> dhillon-v10: There's not set amount of time. Applications are considered by a board of members and approved or not on a case by case merit based on contribution.
<starcraftman> dhillon-v10: Every person contributes different, so varies. See here > https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Membership
<dhillon-v10> starcraftman: Oh I don't think I have any of that merit so I shouldn't apply :)
<starcraftman> dhillon-v10: Ideally, you should have made a sustained contribution to a field over several months, like ubuntu forums, wiki editing, or programming, bug triage, etc... In addition, on your homepage wiki it's advisable to get testimonials from people you work with (like the leads of teams your in).
<starcraftman> dhillon-v10: anyway, see the page for best explanation.
<dhillon-v10> starcraftman: thanks for your advice, I will learn more and try
<starcraftman> dhillon-v10: no problem, it doesn't really confer any magic status. It's more symbolic than anything, I certainly don't edit wiki pages and support in the forums just for an ubuntu email.
<dhillon-v10> starcraftman: Neither do I but it certainly looks cool :)
#ubuntu-doc 2009-08-19
<dhillon-v10> Rocket2DMn: hi
<dhillon-v10> hi everyone
<dhillon-v10> hi everyone
<dhillon-v101> starcraftman: hi, how are you
<starcraftman> lo dhillon-v101
<dhillon-v101>  starcraftman: how is it going
<starcraftman> I'm ok guess, just got on a bit ago. Practicing my typing today, gotta keep up to scratch. Especially since I seem to be fixing documentation mostly, involves lots of word typing...
<starcraftman> dhillon-v101: using gtypist, nifty little ncurses program that runs in a console, in the repos. Even got dvorak lessons for those inclined.
<dhillon-v101>  starcraftman: I might have told you before that I wanted to get ubuntu membership, I have noticed that there are some people here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Membership/RegionalBoards/Americas who haven't made that significant contribution but are still applying, so do you think comparing my profile to their I stand a chance
<starcraftman> dhillon-v101: I've only sat in on a few meetings of the board, all I can say is that imo its better to have more than less.  If you want examples of people recently approved by the regional board, I'd look at the page history of the entry and then cross reference recent applicants with those who were added to the lp ubuntu member team.
<starcraftman> dhillon-v101: on wiki.ubuntu pagehistory is the info button at top, next to edit. Wish it were a bit more obvious.
<dhillon-v101> thanks, what is imo
<starcraftman> dhillon-v101: in my opinion.
<dhillon-v101> so do you think I should try
<starcraftman> where's your page again?
<dhillon-v101> https://launchpad.net/~dhillon-v10
<starcraftman> dhillon-v101: your wiki.ubuntu.com page I meant. That's where ya should list all your contributions. lp, just shows what teams your in.
<dhillon-v101> wiki.ubuntu.com/dhillonv
<dhillon-v103> hey why is my username being changed over and over
<starcraftman> dhillon-v103: i dunno did ya use the nick command?
<dhillon-v103> no i didn't
<starcraftman> dhillon-v103: as to applying, I think you should wait a bit, I don't consider myself an expert though on applying for membership. I'd suggest ya restructure your contributions to be more of a list type thing, makes it tidier for when members glance over it.
<starcraftman> dhillon-v103: for example, see how I listed contributions > https://wiki.ubuntu.com/starcraft.man
<starcraftman> dhillon-v103: also, I'd strongly encourage ya to get testimonials from members who've worked with you in teams or who are leads in teams you work. Testimonials make it much easier to go through the process.
<dhillon-v103> starcraftman: alright, that's a good example I will do so really soon
<starcraftman> dhillon-v103: feel free to click edit and borrow some of the code if ya like, just don't apply changes.
<starcraftman> dhillon-v103: unless I made a typo or something...
<dhillon-v103> starcraftman: I will :) thanks and talk to you later
<starcraftman> dhillon-v103: later
#ubuntu-doc 2009-08-20
<dog5point0> hey i need some help
<dog5point0> im trying to install ubuntu but when it gets to 35% it fails
<dhillon-v10> hi everyone
#ubuntu-doc 2009-08-22
<dhillon-v10> starcraftman: hi how are you
#ubuntu-doc 2009-08-23
<Rocket2DMn> good morning mdke
<Rocket2DMn> I have a couple of bugs I worked on awhile ago for Hardy that don't appear on the regular list anymore b/c they are Fix Released or Invalid otherwise
<Rocket2DMn> any idea if they will be committed to Hardy?
<Rocket2DMn> bug 371773
<ubot4> Launchpad bug 371773 in ubuntu-docs "broken iso link on https://help.ubuntu.com/8.04/serverguide/C/jeos-initial-setup.html" [Undecided,Invalid] https://launchpad.net/bugs/371773
<Rocket2DMn> bug 243797
<ubot4> Launchpad bug 243797 in ubuntu-docs "Networking troubleshooting docs refer to non-existent menu entry" [Low,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/243797
<Rocket2DMn> mdke, also, you asked me last weekend about putting together a page like I use for the BT wiki focus group.  I could probably add some stuff to this page - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/Wiki/Tasks
<mdke> Rocket2DMn: DocumentationTeam/Wiki/Tasks needs plenty of love so any work you could do on it would be awesome
<mdke> Rocket2DMn: I think the Tag transition stuff is basically done now, am I right?
<mdke> maybe the occasional page left in CategoryCleanup but otherwise all sorted
<Rocket2DMn> yeah, transition is pretty much complete
<Rocket2DMn> ill take those last few pages out of Cleanup soon
<mdke> awesome
<mdke> Rocket2DMn: on those bugs, I think that we can and should fix them in hardy
<Rocket2DMn> ok mdke , IIRC, those bugs already have patches posted, they just havent been pushed to the hardy branch
<Rocket2DMn> i also noticed we still have open bugs at https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu-doc
<mdke> Rocket2DMn: I'll look into pushing them soon
<Rocket2DMn> cool, thanks mdke
<Rocket2DMn> mdke, what do you think about bug 110013 - is this one that can be closed now?  We take requests with bugs on LP, and there is also Brainstorm
<ubot4> Launchpad bug 110013 in ubuntu-docs "suggestion - easy way to request features or documentation" [Wishlist,Incomplete] https://launchpad.net/bugs/110013
<mdke> yes, agree
<Rocket2DMn> ok
<Rocket2DMn> mdke, i know i keep bugging you about this one, your thread on the forums for getting involved - http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=81999
<Rocket2DMn> i think it needs to be unstuck sine the info in it is all wrong now.  if/when you get around to writing a new one, perhaps it can include stuff about Doc Days, per your latest email
 * mdke nods
<mdke> ok, I promise to look at that today
<Rocket2DMn> lol, okie dokie
<mdke> thanks for the persistence :)
<Rocket2DMn> ill try and have that Wiki/Tasks page updated later today as well
<mdke> Rocket2DMn: I don't seem to be able to edit the post, any ideas?
<mdke> maybe because it is too old, or closed
<mdke> give me a prod if you figure it out, off to bed now
<Rocket2DMn> mdke, you cant edit it because its closed
<Rocket2DMn> mdke, do you want to edit the post or just make a new one?
<Rocket2DMn> newer posts tend to get more attention, but i can open the old one for editing if you want
#ubuntu-doc 2010-08-23
<kim0> Hi there .. I'd like to create a FAQ page for "cloud" related stuff
<kim0> I had created one here: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UEC/FAQ
<kim0> but I wonder if it should be moved to the regular wiki ?
<slacker_nl> hello, what is the prefered tool/format to create man-pages?
<slacker_nl> nvm
<Nobelle> hello
<Nobelle> I am looking for a version of ubuntu for my old Dell Latitude CPi with a Pentium II processor.  Does a version exist that will run on this computer?
<slacker_nl> Nobelle: i suppose all current versions of Ubuntu work on your hardware - however, this is not the correct channel to ask these questions: /join #ubuntu
<czajkowski> ah he left was going to point him at http://webapps.ubuntu.com/certification/
<abhijit> hello
#ubuntu-doc 2010-08-24
<wmrit> Hi hodo I set up my wiki-page?
<abhijit> wmrit, if no one answers you here then after some time try in #ubuntu-beginners-wiki
<wmrit> thanks
#ubuntu-doc 2010-08-29
<slacker_nl> hello, any docbook specialists available?
<mdke> slacker_nl: I'll give it my best shot
<slacker_nl> mdke: i have a man page in docbook format, and I want to include some bits and pieces, eg copyright info/authors etc
<slacker_nl> http://pb.opperschaap.net/266
<slacker_nl> but it doesn't show any author and/or copyright info
<mdke> that looks a little weird to me
<mdke> have you tried moving this bit inside the xinclude tag instead of in the authorgroup tag?
<slacker_nl> yes
<mdke> damn, I can't copy and paste
<mdke> like this
<mdke> http://pb.opperschaap.net/269
<mdke> and run a validation check over your xml file like
<mdke> xmllint --noout --xinclude --noent --postvalid file.xml
<mdke> see if you get any results
<slacker_nl> http://pb.opperschaap.net/270
<slacker_nl> i get the results i'm expecting, the xmllint doesn't like the fact that the authorgroup has multiple authors
<slacker_nl> <author> .. </author> <author> .. </author> etc etc, same for copyright.xml with <year> .. </year>
<mdke> you can have multiple authors in authorgroup
<mdke> that's sort of the point
<slacker_nl> :) I know
<mdke> try putting your authorgroup inside the separate xml tag instead of in your main file
<mdke> ditto for copyright
<mdke> i think xinclude requires that the file you are including has a complete tag in it
<slacker_nl> no dice
<slacker_nl> xmllint doesn't complain, yet it doesn't show anything in the manpage
<mdke> how are you viewing it?
<mdke> I suppose you could also put everything in the main file rather than separate it out and see if that works. At least then you know what is causing the problem
<slacker_nl> mdke: via man ./$outputfile
<slacker_nl> mdke: i know that it works if I put everything in the main file - that's how I started it
<slacker_nl> but I don't want to update authors/copyright etc in multiple files
<mdke> I don't know how man displays xml. if xmllint isn't complaining, then there isn't an issue with the xml
<mdke> perhaps man doesn't support xinclude?
<slacker_nl> i'm using docbook2x-man and xsltproc to create the man page
<slacker_nl> this is the output of xsltproc
<slacker_nl> http://pb.opperschaap.net/271
<mdke> I think i've run out of ideas I'm afraid
<mdke> sorry
<mdke> you're using "xsltproc --xinclude" I guess?
<slacker_nl> nope, without
<mdke> ah, that might be it
<mdke> you need that
<slacker_nl> mm
<slacker_nl> ty, now see if docbook2x-man has similar options
<mdke> bbl
#ubuntu-doc 2011-08-23
<pasteeater> where should i request a page rename at help.ubuntu.com? the ubuntu-doc mailing list? here?
<jbicha> pasteeater: the mailing list is probably better, but what's the issue?
<pasteeater> it's trivial. the project is FFmpeg, not FFMpeg as the page indicates in the link and title.
<jbicha> pasteeater: link please
<pasteeater> jbicha: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/FFMpeg
<jbicha> pasteeater: it's a wiki, you're welcome to edit it
<pasteeater> jbicha: the option to rename the page is unavailable to me.
<pasteeater> i assumed someone with higher credentials would be required to change it
<jbicha> pasteeater: ah, I see, you can just request that on the mailing list
<jbicha> only a few people have that power these days
<pasteeater> oh. ok. thanks for the input.
#ubuntu-doc 2011-08-24
<qwebirc10276> hello
<qwebirc10276> can someone help me for asuring documentation  on ubuntu global jam
#ubuntu-doc 2011-08-25
<qwebirc37497> bijirour
#ubuntu-doc 2011-08-26
<jbicha> mdke: I switched ubuntu-docs over to yelp-tools and it appears to build a whole lot faster
#ubuntu-doc 2011-08-27
<jbicha> mdke: do you think we should try to push an updated ubuntu-docs for the beta?
#ubuntu-doc 2012-08-20
<melodie_> hi
<melodie_> when the next LTS 2012-04.1 will be out, will there be just updates or something else ?
<Atamira> did you check the website?
<melodie_> hi Atamira I tried to but found no clues about the information I look for
<melodie_> do you have a link to a page where I could find it ?
<melodie_> this is what I have : https://wiki.ubuntu.com/PrecisePangolin/ReleaseSchedule
<Atamira> 12.04 is currently out
<jbicha> melodie_: 12.04.1 is 12.04 with all the bugfixes since release included
<melodie_> jbicha, ok, thanks !
<melodie_> therefore updates will do it fine ?
<jbicha> yes, if you install Ubuntu 12.04 and then install all the updates, you'll get the same result
<melodie_> very good ! I wanted to be sure, thanks.
<melodie_> bye
<Atamira> sorry..was on the phone..heh
#ubuntu-doc 2012-08-22
<jmack847> quit
#ubuntu-doc 2013-08-21
<erroric> howdy carif
#ubuntu-doc 2013-08-23
<pleia2> bkerensa: when you have a chance, it would be great to have a meeting in the near future to learn about your hand-off plans (will you be around to work with a volunteer through the docs building+submitting&release process? or at least document it for us?)
<bkerensa> pleia2: I will document what I know but jbicha still knows some bits that are not shared
<bkerensa> pleia2: I already reached out to jono's team and encouraged them to allocated some of their time to helping continue to grow docs
<bkerensa> mhall119: ^
<bkerensa> pleia2: for the most part Doug and the Server Doc Folks know the process
<pleia2> bkerensa: well, the docs freeze is sept 19th, so I wasn't sure if you'd be around to handle that
<bkerensa> its basically running the scripts
<bkerensa> pleia2: Hmm
<bkerensa> pleia2: yeah I will be there my last day is Sept 30
<bkerensa> :)
<pleia2> yeah, wasn't sure if you had made time for it or what
<bkerensa> then I will turn into a pumpkin at midnight
<pleia2> is progress being made on the 13.10 docs?
<bkerensa> pleia2: a lot of work has been done yes
<pleia2> great
<bkerensa> pleia2: we still need that script fixed and it seems to be a issue not being addressed
<bkerensa> ideally it would be nice if someone at Canonical fixed it
<pleia2> the screenshot one, or something else?
<bkerensa> yeah the screenshot one
<bkerensa> updated screenshots would be nice
<pleia2> bkerensa: can you send a mail to the list showing exactly what script it is and how it doesn't work?
<mhall119> pleia2: bkerensa: I don't know how much time my team will have to contributing to writing docs, but I think we can try and come up with some technical or process solutions that will make it easier to identify when they break and need to be updated
<pleia2> then we can share it around to see if we can find someone to work on it
<bkerensa> I think were three cycles behind on screenshots
<pleia2> right now I think people don't know how to help
<bkerensa> pleia2: So I have never used the script.... the last person to use it was jbicha
<mhall119> bkerensa: screenshots are an example of something that could be automated
<bkerensa> He says it just doesnt make the screenshots anymore
<bkerensa> mhall119: It was automated
<bkerensa> :)
<bkerensa> but the script broke
<bkerensa> :D
<bkerensa> or Ubuntu broke it
<pleia2> bkerensa: is there any way you can find time to test it and see what's wrong?
<bkerensa> pleia2: surely
<mhall119> bkerensa: I meant when Unity gets a new commit, when it kicks off autopilot tests it could also kick off the script to get new screenshots
<bkerensa> pleia2: I will test it this coming Monday
<mhall119> put docs into our continuous integration and testing workflow
<pleia2> bkerensa: great
<bkerensa> mhall119: or Sumo
<bkerensa> Sumo is now mature enough
<bkerensa> :)
<bkerensa> mhall119: oh and Moz might fork Summit
<mhall119> bkerensa: wasn't it decided that sumo wouldn't work for us?
<bkerensa> mhall119: Yes but that was a cycle or two ago
<bkerensa> mhall119: Mozilla has since hired a large group of people to work on Sumo
<pleia2> bkerensa: you were really the sumo champion, seeing as we can barely manage to handle the docs we have and you're leaving, I don't see it as a viable option at this point
<bkerensa> so
<pleia2> we really need to focus on getting back on track with what we have and ramping up new contributors
<bkerensa> hmm yes
<bkerensa> well getting started is done
<bkerensa> so
<bkerensa> on boarding is now possible
<bkerensa> :)
<pleia2> maybe in a year or so we'll have a team that's robust enough to take on new challenges
<mhall119> bkerensa: forking summit causes a lot of engineering work, cjohnston put a lot of work into it a year or two ago to make it flexible enough to run UDS, Linaro Connect and the Linux kernel conference
<pleia2> bkerensa: can you follow up with Doug's comments about the placement of the getting started guide? I don't want to share the link too widely until that's sorted
<mhall119> bkerensa: I would encourage Moz to try and make it work as-is first
<bkerensa> yes
<pleia2> ok, used up my quota of voluntelling for the day, thanks bkerensa :)
<mhall119> oh no, there's quotas on that?
<pleia2> lol
<bkerensa> not for Canonical
<bkerensa> :)
<pleia2> now now
 * bkerensa ducks and hides
<mhall119> damn, suddenly I realize I have a lot of debt
#ubuntu-doc 2013-08-24
<erroric> is this the place to ask wiki questions or is there a designated IRC channel for ubuntu-wiki?
#ubuntu-doc 2014-08-19
<slickymasterWork> belkinsa: have a read from http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=2110857&p=13100985&viewfull=1#post13100985 up to http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=2110857&p=13101139&viewfull=1#post13101139
<belkinsa> Alright
<slickymasterWork> hi ;)
<belkinsa> Long time no see, slickymasterWork.
<slickymasterWork> sorry for the late reply on this, but I've been on vacation, just returned yesterday
<slickymasterWork> hope everything is fine with you
<slickymasterWork> BTW, congrats on the nomination for the Ubuntu Women Council~
<belkinsa> Everything is indeed fine with me, and I understand, it's summer time and people need breaks.
<belkinsa> ;)
<belkinsa> slickymasterWork, I read it and it's a shame that we have let the project slip under our hands.
<slickymasterWork> I don't see it as if we have let the project slip belkinsa, IMO the project evolved to something that requires a different approach to
<belkinsa> Ah, I see.  I guess you are right.
#ubuntu-doc 2014-08-22
<DS-McGuire> Hello guys, I am currently working on my action point for the meeting, I am in contact with Daniel Holbach and he wants to know where we would like the wiki to be placed in the community.ubuntu.com page. Any ideas?
<DS-McGuire> belkinsa: New message, read above.
<pleia2> DS-McGuire: it's linked here: http://community.ubuntu.com/contribute/documentation/
<pleia2> suggesting it should be here too? http://community.ubuntu.com/help-information/
<pleia2> that seems reasonable, with something like "Our community help wiki that covers a broad range of topics beyond the official docs is available here"
<DS-McGuire> I see that as being a way of saying "This is where you contribute" and not this is where they are to read.
<pleia2> gotcha, that's why I was asking :)
<pleia2> and browsing through the logs, if you're looking for metrics, there are about 150 or so edits/month (based on this past month)
<pleia2> not to shabby
<pleia2> too
<pleia2> and certainly more than we get for the official docs, sadly
<DS-McGuire> Awesome. Do you believe there should be a link to it directly on community.ubuntu.com or on  http://community.ubuntu.com/help-information/ Jumping through different links is what I am trying to solve.
<DS-McGuire> Yeah that is some good stats quite pleased with them... Apart from the docs.
<pleia2> you can already get to help.ubuntu.com from the front page, I don't know that adding the community docs too is appropriate, it's already pretty busy at the top :)
<pleia2> already have to click "more" to get to the regular docs
<pleia2> and this seems like a unified header among many sites, changing would be non-trivial I think
<DS-McGuire> I think you might be right, hold on.
<DS-McGuire> You are right. I never knew it would be hidden under more. However, I believe the original point was that from the community page the wiki was not listed on the page itself.
<pleia2> I think you could make that argument for a lot of resources in the community, we only link to one subset of each thing
<DS-McGuire> If you and other people believe no change has to happen then I will stop with this change.
<pleia2> just having a discussion :)
<pleia2> I wasn't at the meeting, so I'm just playing catch up anyway
<DS-McGuire> I know we are. I don't want to change things if there is no need, and you are making good points.
<DS-McGuire> AH, well you would have been good in the meeting.
<pleia2> unfortunately I was still on the mend from surgery at the time, but I'll try to attend the next one
<pleia2> (nothing major, all better now!)
<DS-McGuire> Well, it's good to hear you're okay :)
<pleia2> thanks :)
<DS-McGuire> No problem :)
#ubuntu-doc 2014-08-24
<jojo__> hey, is there a way to get a community wiki page as pdf file ?
#ubuntu-doc 2015-08-17
<shaunm_> I'm trying to improve yelp's conditional processing for distro/desktop stuff. I have a short three-question survey to collect the system info yelp uses. I'd appreciate if people running ubuntu (and variants) would fill it out:
<shaunm_> https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1qU3Ke7_FQOFqxDa9EiHEj-qdXyJfyO_ax43P3oBCHEk/viewform
#ubuntu-doc 2015-08-20
<pleia2> meeting with the CC time in #ubuntu-meeting (looks like most who said they were going to join have already, just reminder in case anyone else wants to join)
#ubuntu-doc 2015-08-21
<dsmythies> pleia2: I noticed that you updated the wiki for the next doc metting. Thanks. However, there has been some other meeting in ubuntu-meeting-2 the last two times. Shouldn't we just change the meeting to here instead?
<pleia2> dsmythies: I'd rather change the meeting time, keeping our meetings in the -meeting channel means other folks in the community can see them
<pleia2> (that's why we have a meeting channel!)
<ahoneybun> why is there 2 anyway>
<dsmythies> pleia2: well, I'll defer to you. Is there a meeting room booking location somewhere?
<pleia2> dsmythies: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars/fridge/
<pleia2> tuesdays are a popular meeting day
<dsmythies> ahoneybun: number 2 was setup when there where a bunch of conflicts with only 1.
<pleia2> just switching to wednesday would solve the problem
<ahoneybun> I see
<pleia2> ahoneybun: you should see openstack, we have 4 meeting channels :)
<ahoneybun> damn
 * ahoneybun was at a OpenStack talk the other day
<ahoneybun> still not sure it's uses
<dsmythies> pleia2: Wednesday used to be the day, and was popular amongst the doc team. I can never make Wednesday.
<pleia2> ahoneybun: I happen to be writing a book on the very topic, I'll send you a copy if I ever manage to finish it ;)
<pleia2> dsmythies: doh :) thursday perhaps?
<ahoneybun> time is the issue for me sadly
<ahoneybun> pleia2: I'd love read it if I could find a use for it in my life XD
#ubuntu-doc 2016-08-22
<ahoneybun> pleia2: what is the LP group so someone can edit the wiki
<ahoneybun> or is it still locked down?
<pleia2> ahoneybun: I don't have it offhand, look in the footer of help.ubuntu.com/community
<pleia2> the wiki guide link will explain how to join
<ahoneybun> big thanks pleia2
<pleia2> sure thing
#ubuntu-doc 2016-08-25
<Mark__> hi everyone
<Mark__> is there anybody there that can help me with access rights issues I have on https://help.ubuntu.com/community/    ?
<pleia2> Mark__: have you applied to the wiki team?
<Mark__> not yet.
<Mark__> but.... for the past few years, I have been updating the following pages:
<Mark__> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/ExternalGuides  https://help.ubuntu.com/community/SoundTroubleshootingProcedure?action=info  https://help.ubuntu.com/community/WirelessTroubleshootingProcedure?action=info  https://help.ubuntu.com/community/PackageManagerTroubleshootingProcedure?action=info  https://help.ubuntu.com/community/GraphicsTroubleshootingProcedure?action=info
<Mark__> but since 2016, those pages have been set as "immutable pages"
<Mark__> so I am not allowed to edit/improve those pages anymore......
<Mark__> which is strange, because I created most of the content on those pages
<Mark__> my real name is Mark Rijckenberg
<Mark__> my profile:  https://launchpad.net/~markrijckenberg
<Mark__> are these pages immutable for you as well?
<Mark__> Princess Leia: are you still there? :-)
<pleia2> Mark__: you need to join the wiki team, instructions for applying are linked in the footer of every page
<pleia2> once someone looks at your profile, they'll approve you :)
<Mark__> ok, it's just strange that I could update for years and years and then lost access rights without any warning.... oh well
<Mark__> I look at it from a customer service point of view. Better to inform the impacted people before doing such a drastic change....
<pleia2> you didn't lose rights, everyone did
<Mark__> ok
<Mark__> :-)
<pleia2> the new process is having people join the launchpad team to keep out the thousands of spammers
<pleia2> they were making edits every few seconds, deleting pages, massive mess
<Mark__> OK, I understand. THe spammers are still busy spamming https://answers.launchpad.net/ubuntu     Any solution for that one?
<pleia2> unfortunately not, you'd have to talk to the #launchpad folks about that
#ubuntu-doc 2017-08-23
<Rocket2DMn> I forgot what a train wreck parts of the community wiki are :(
<pleia2> I think it's worse now that it's been locked down to a specific team on lp, it's still hard to figure out which team to join, then you have to wait for an admin to add you, by that time you've lost interest in updating the wiki
<pleia2> and if you haven't lost interest, logging in is slow, caching is super strong so pages often still look immutable even once you've logged in
<pleia2> it's a big mess :\
<Rocket2DMn> pleia2, yeah I agree.
<Rocket2DMn> we made a big push to tag pages that needed work years and years ago but little has happened so pages are old as dirt and way outdated
<Rocket2DMn> i've been going through trying to do some housecleaning, but that's mostly me just procrastinating on doing my real work
<Rocket2DMn> We may need a more aggressive approach to getting things in order
<Rocket2DMn> pleia2, haven't talked to you in quite awhile - how are things?
<pleia2> good, busy as always :) you?
<Rocket2DMn> good, i'm in the Bay Area this summer working at LBL
<Rocket2DMn> really the first time in 10 years that I've spent any serious time here
<pleia2> oh nice, I'm usually in San Francisco, but I'm in the middle of 4 weeks away (we have a townhouse just north of Philly too, which is where I am right now)
<pleia2> was in florida last week, will be in dublin next week
<Rocket2DMn> wow that's a lot of travel!
<pleia2> it's what I do :)
<Rocket2DMn> yeah, i see your FB posts (often from twitter I think)
<Rocket2DMn> my travel tends to be feast and famine.  i'm in the latter right now
<Rocket2DMn> Dublin sounds awesome though, I'd love to visit there sometime
<pleia2> I've been before, but I enjoyed it a lot so I'm taking the opportunity that presented itself to go again :)
<Rocket2DMn> cool, have a great time!
<pleia2> thanks :)
