#ubuntu-doc 2005-05-02
<jsgotangco> what the i got invited to test out MS Server 2003 R2
<jsgotangco> haha
<jsgotangco> abelli, hi
<jsgotangco> Burgundavia, hi
<Burgundavia> salut
<jsgotangco> thats great my phone crashed
<Burgundavia> crappy
<jsgotangco> you want to know what it runs
<jsgotangco> MS Smartphone :( yes i am shamed
<Burgundavia> hmm, ms smartphone
<jsgotangco> hey! it was a gift from my wife
<Burgundavia> yes, non-techys frequently buy odd gifts like that
<Burgundavia> they don't really know the difference
<jsgotangco> this phone isnt to smart at all
<Burgundavia> it is MS, what do you expect?
<jsgotangco> well i used to have a Zaurus and it was crappy so i replaced it with a Pocket PC
<Burgundavia> unfortunately, I bought a palm
<Burgundavia> so their is no linux for it
<jsgotangco> at least they sync nicely
<jsgotangco> unlikethe Zaurus where it cant even sync to  linux
<jsgotangco> it took a while for KitchenSync to do that
<jsgotangco> Burgundavia, bye bye i may not be online at all tommorow to prepare stuff
<Kinnison> Morning all
<Burgundavia> salut
<Kinnison> ca va?
<Burgundavia> it vas
<Burgundavia> yesterday I wanted to kill something. Feeling better today
<Kinnison> ca marche alors
<abelli> jeffsch: =
<abelli> jeffsch: sorry .
<abelli> Kinnison: ?
<Kinnison> abelli: ?
<abelli> Kinnison: what language is that :)?
<Kinnison> abelli: unaccented french
<abelli> Kinnison: huh right :)
<Burgundavia> ugh, feeling stupid
<Burgundavia> cannot figure out how to add .desktop files
<Burgundavia> there is some step I am missing, but I cannot find it
<mkde> where is froud these days?
<Burgundavia> around
<Burgundavia> did you get a response for the ubuntuguide.org guy?
<mkde> no
<mkde> apparently he posts on the forum occasionally
<Burgundavia> ugh
<Burgundavia> he is being most non-responsive
<Burgundavia> I have seen posts to the forums though
<mkde> its a real shame we can't pool resources
<Burgundavia> indeed
<Burgundavia> as the current guide I wouldn't recommend to anyone
<mkde> i wish he would specify which repository is needed for which application, rather than telling all users to add all repositories
<Burgundavia> the marilliat one is annoying
<Burgundavia> as stable and testing don't have am64
<Burgundavia> mkde, the word "mains" common in the UK
<mkde> ?
<Burgundavia> for power
<mkde> yes
<Burgundavia> Ie, you computer is on the mains
<mkde> yes
<mkde> if you are asking me ;)
<Burgundavia> what about AC power
<Burgundavia> what about plugged in?
<Burgundavia> is that common?
<mkde> both are ok
<mkde> yeah
<Burgundavia> mains in almost unknown here
<Burgundavia> I am working on an interface
<mkde> oh right
<mkde> just write it in en_CA and get it translated into en_GB and en_US
<mkde> ;p
* mkde takes a long look in the direction of rosetta
<Burgundavia> right
<Burgundavia> we need something working now
<Burgundavia> and then we can worry about that
<Burgundavia> is for the gnome-power project
<mkde> right
<mkde> i was just joking about the en variants, I think they are a waste of time
<Burgundavia> hmm, debatable
<Burgundavia> but yes, generally, they are weasel ways out
<Burgundavia> you can look for common words
<Burgundavia> do you have glade installed?
<mkde> i'm on windows 2000
<mkde> and a pretty unstable one at that
<Burgundavia> ahhh
<Burgundavia> I just assume that someone is one Ubuntu
<Burgundavia> do you have access to an ubuntu system?
<mkde> not right now
* mkde points at mdke
<mkde> i'm at school atm
<Burgundavia> ah
<Burgundavia> I seee
<Burgundavia> you are at work
<Burgundavia> what are you taking?
<mkde> its called the Bar Vocational Course
<mkde> one year course you have to take in order to be a lawyer
<mkde> over here
<Burgundavia> ah
<Burgundavia> glade2 has no undo
<Burgundavia> very frustrating
* mkde looks through ubuntuguide
<mkde> i wonder why he chooses to use the command line instead of using gnome-system-tools on some occasions
<froud> African Greetings
<mkde> hi froud
<froud> hi
<froud> been a bit busy so have not been tuned. what's happening
<mkde> froud, you just replied to my mail, 8 minutes before I sent it
<mkde> that is seriously fast
<froud> which mail was that
<mkde> Re: poxml 
<froud> Oh yes
<froud> so what is new, who is doing what
<froud> Burgundavia: did you get my message about the installation guide?
<froud> what do you think you want to integrate it
<Burgundavia> hadn't got to reading that yet
<Burgundavia> will do so now and respond to you
<mkde> froud, how come we use QT poxml scripts rather than python ones? is one better than the other?
<froud> Ok, if you want just go ahead with the installation guide
<froud> we found problems with the gnome stuff
<froud> we got kde stuff working first
<mkde> oh right
<mkde> fair enough
<froud> the end result is the same so no big issue
<mkde> true
<mkde> although if both work, it would seem logical to use the one with least dependencies. But if one is easier than the other, then fair enough
<froud> wel we did not get the gnome ones to work
<mkde> yeah
<mkde> ok
<froud> jeffsch: nice one on the style guide dude
<Burgundavia> froud, looks good
* froud still needs to update the i18n.sh
<froud> yeah, think you can do it
<Burgundavia> probably
<froud> I think it should be a new chapter at the end
<Burgundavia> ok
<froud> I made the first installation chapter the basic
<mkde> froud, oh i wanted to ask you: would you check http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/DocteamStepByStepl18n to make sure I haven't got anything wrong
<froud> stuff like IP config and partions I also placed in their own chanters
<froud> sure
<mkde> thx
<mkde> i'm off now
<mkde> back on this evening
<mkde> bye all have fun
<froud> ok the doc looks good
<froud> just made a small change
<mkde> froud, thanks
<froud> there will be no branch of hoary
<froud> of a release only a tag
<mkde> right, yeah just put that in as a parenthesis cos enrico seemed keen
<mkde> feel free to correct/expand on anything
<froud> it's compound enouh
<froud> sure
<froud> thanks
<froud> c ya later
<mkde> bye
<Burgundavia> froud, how do I do a if else
<Burgundavia> ie if you run 98
<Burgundavia> vs if you run NT
<froud> Makes sense, perhaps a chapter with sect1 on each and intro para to cover the in then. Can also do this at the top of the doc
<froud> remember to consider both gnome and kde here
<froud> although install is mostly about GNU/Linux
<Burgundavia> the netinstall doc is only how to boot the installer, so the rest holds
<froud> yes, so perhaps just if then at the begin of the doc 
<froud> what do you think
<froud> please remember to ass yourself as an author and the author of the document
<froud> add
<froud> :-)
<Burgundavia> yorp
<froud> sorry
<froud> going to lectures
<froud> c ya later
#ubuntu-doc 2005-05-03
<hypno> you know, at the top of the ubuntu wiki the text that gives you context location (UserDocumentation >> SetupHowTos >> AddingRepositoriesHowto >>, etc) s extremely small for me.
<froud> African Greetings
<mdke> jeffsch, i agree with your mail to the list on the kde quickguide
<_froud_> +1
<mdke> morning froud 
<mdke> :)
<froud> morn
<froud> however, I think we should let creativity flow here and see where it goes. Certainly, judgement of crowds will determine if it is a good or bad idea. So far it seems to be not a good idea.
<mdke> yes i agree with letting creativity flow
<mdke> but random misspelling...
<froud> yeah, I dont think it is a good idea. But js is new and young, he is having fun which by experimenting, I think it is a good thing. I think the consensus of the crowds will mature him in this aspect and will move to a normal approach :-)
<mdke> oh yeah its no biggie
<mdke> young?
<mdke> :p
<froud> young in terms of FOSS
<froud> not age
<froud> :-)
<mdke> lol
<mdke> hi jiyuu0 
<mdke> welcome
<jiyuu0> hello
<jiyuu0> i just read there's a prob wif http://ubuntuguide.org/#extrarepositories
<jiyuu0> that is causing broken thingi
<jiyuu0> issit only wif mplayer?
<mdke> I have encountered the problems with codecs generally, people have complained about broken totems too
<mdke> jiyuu0, in my experience it is only safe to add marillat temporarily, and then comment it out
<jiyuu0> sounds true
<jiyuu0> how bout backport?
<mdke> and I don't believe that it is necessary to add all of the marillat repositories
<mdke> jiyuu0, i have no experience with backports but I know they are very frowned upon by Ubuntu developers
<jiyuu0> i added all cause acroread is in testing
<mdke> jiyuu0, my personal opinion is that when you describe how to install individual packages, it would be really nice to specify which repository needs to be added, rather than asking people to add them all. and also maybe to explain the risks of the repositories
<jiyuu0> i only afraid that would confuse ppl.. that's why i add the whole thingi in
<mdke> jiyuu0, for codecs and mplayer, the page http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/RestrictedFormats can be very useful
<mdke> yes I see your concern about the confusion
<jiyuu0> so far... the only prob addin all is mplayer broken
<mdke> perhaps you could ask others about their experience on ubuntu-users to find out more: i only have limited experience
<jiyuu0> ok
<mdke> jiyuu0, i think it would be really cool to pool our resources and involve the docteam in your project, even if it is just for input purposes
<jiyuu0> i'll see how i can restructure it
<jiyuu0> i'm thinkin to convert it to the doc team format... once i finish addin a few more topics
<mdke> that would be totally cool
<mdke> jiyuu0, perhaps you can email the docteam list about it?
<mdke> they can give you lots of help
<jiyuu0> ok
<mdke> yay :)
<jiyuu0> :)
<mdke> your resource has enormous potential, and it would be nice to work together to make it really reliable and bring it to the maximum number of users possible
<Burgundavia> jiyuu0, the only marillait repo that is neccesary is the unstable one, as testing and stable have no amd64 debs
<Burgundavia> jiyuu0, it has also been having some issues recently
<jiyuu0> Burgundavia: testing have acroread 7
<jiyuu0> else mozilla-acroread will be broken if not added
<Burgundavia> unstable has it as well
<mdke> it is only natural that marillat causes problems: it is not made for Ubuntu. What I do on my system is to add it and then remove it after I've installed what I want
<jiyuu0> or should i download the packages to my server... and let ppl download + install manualloy
<Burgundavia> Marilliat shoudl work in Ubuntu
<Burgundavia> jiyuu0, no, keep the repos
<jiyuu0> ok
<Burgundavia> there is no good reason that those repos should break, as long as you know what to expect, and which ones you actually need
* Kinnison heads off to UDU, bye guys
<mdke> have fun Kinnison 
* jiyuu0 so many mails... omg
<mdke> lol
<Burgundavia> indeed
<jiyuu0> all from ubuntu
<jiyuu0> gosh
<jiyuu0> that's why i'm afraid to login into my gmail + subsribe mailing list account
<mdke> jiyuu0, if you use evolution or another email client you can filter the mailing lists into individual folders ;)
<jiyuu0> did it previously... till i formatted it to hoary
<Burgundavia> gmail has that to
<jiyuu0> haven setup my mail client yet
<jiyuu0> anybody suggested kubuntu guide before?
<jiyuu0> i don't think i have the time to do that
<Burgundavia> ubuntuguide will work for kubuntu, because it is cli based
<jiyuu0> not really... configure network / right file share is only avaible for ubuntu but not kubuntu
<Burgundavia> ah
<jjesse> morning
<Burgundavia> salut
<mdke> hi jjesse 
<jjesse> hello mdke
<jjesse> finally have time to work again now that we have succesfully deployed our ip phone system
<jsgotangco> ugghh there goes the kwick guide *grin*
<mdke> hi jsgotangco 
<jsgotangco> mdke, hey hows it going
<mdke> good thanks, you?
<jsgotangco> im starting to pack up my stuff
<jsgotangco> good thing the list isnt steaming today
<mdke> yeah its calming down
<mdke> jsgotangco, have fun in UDU, defend the docteam corner ;)
<jsgotangco> yes i will defend the dokteam korner
<jsgotangco> gyah ha ha
<mdke> hmm
* mdke steals jsgotangco 's plane tickets
<jsgotangco> sure its electronic
<mdke> (electronically)
<jsgotangco> hmm
<jsgotangco> no school?
<jsgotangco> ugghh this xp machine suck so bad
<jsgotangco> mdke, how goes rosetta?
<mdke> jsgotangco, seems ok, what do you think?
<mdke> i saw a tl quickguide po appear
<jsgotangco> hmm that's not me for sure
<jsgotangco> i will check ive been busy with the quickguide
<mdke> jsgotangco, there aren't actually any translations in there
<mdke> maybe carlos just added a blank po
<jsgotangco> theres a bit trouble brewing with i18n and i10n over here the debian-tl people are sourgraping
<mdke> whats wrong?
<jsgotangco> everytime someone in debian-tl asks about ubuntu they say translate debian first since it goes to ubuntu
<jsgotangco> i told them that's fine
<mdke> well the upstream translations certainly go in
<jsgotangco> yeah they go in like what happened in hoary
<jsgotangco> i told them to read the stuff in rosetta first before reacting
<mdke> you should tell them to translate upstream first since it goes into debian :p
<jsgotangco> they dont like the idea of translating something other than debian
<jsgotangco> which is ridiculous
<mdke> sounds like they are typical debian users
<mdke> tell them to post on the ubuntu-tl list, if you have one
<jsgotangco> we have ubuntu-ph but some of them debian-tl guys can be stubborn perhaps it is our culture
<mdke> nah its like that with all debian users ;)
<mdke> just tell them of the existence of ubuntu-ph and leave it at that
<jsgotangco> we did
<jsgotangco> hehe
<jsgotangco> we get like 3 new members everyday
<mdke> cool
<jjesse> jsgotangco did you remove the Kwick guide references to the kubuntu quickguide or not yet per the discussion on the email list
<jeffsch> good morning
<jjesse> morning
<jsgotangco> jjesse, will do remove those stuff because the style guide says so
<jjesse> ok
<jsgotangco> but i'll just commit them later got to add more stuff dont want to commit on just plain title changes
<abelli> ciao a tutti, where should i look for breezy's qemu-image.
<jsgotangco> ciao
<mdke> abelli, #ubuntu-devel?
<abelli> mdke: you should know it? or how can you take images of breezy?
<mdke> i don't know
<mdke> we haven't done screenshots yet
<jsgotangco> i haven't even changed my box to breezy repos
<mdke> me neither
<jsgotangco> too early imo
<jjesse> me 3
<jsgotangco> for us anyway
<jjesse> i don't want to have to update every day :(
<jsgotangco> well
<jsgotangco> we dont need to
<mdke> i will install breezy on a separate partition and do doc work in that i think
<jsgotangco> we can start serious stuff halway through breezy devel
* mdke nods
<jsgotangco> right now we're focusing on structure
<jsgotangco> mdke, i was in #ubuntu the other day
<jsgotangco> and i saw some guys saying gubuntu, kubuntu, xubuntu
<jsgotangco> hehehe
<mdke> pah
<Burgundavia> gubuntu, the republican version of Ubuntu
<jsgotangco> lol
<jsgotangco> jiyuu0, hi
<jiyuu0> jsgotangco, hello
<jsgotangco> im supposed to leave in a few hours and then my mobile phone wont respond
<jsgotangco> grr
<abelli> jsgotangco: well, you can use qemu, so that you dont have to install it :)
<jsgotangco> abelli, you will be proud of me for i am using an ms smartphone that my wife gave me a few months ago
<jsgotangco> im downloading a new firmware at the moment
<abelli> jsgotangco: ok im coming for the "mkfs.ext2"
<jsgotangco> it would be nice to have one of those moto phones
<jsgotangco> abelli, by chance are you in milan
<abelli> jsgotangco: no but i can get there in less than 2 hrs
<jsgotangco> abelli, i might go to milan by october to visit my aunt and go to rome as well
<abelli> jsgotangco: we can meet up in milan .. easily.
<jeffsch> I'm off to get caffeine. jsgotangco, have fun at UDU and don't work too hard! :-)
* jeffsch is away: I'll be back
<jsgotangco> jeffsch, thanks i will make sure the dokteam gets heard hehe
<jeffsch> :)
<abelli> im off
<abelli> ciao a tutti
<mdke> ciao
<abelli> buon week end
<mdke> you too
<jsgotangco> ciao
<jsgotangco> ok that's all folks
<jsgotangco> see you
* jeffsch is back (gone 03:43:10)
#ubuntu-doc 2005-05-04
<froud> African Greetings
<maskie> morning frud
<froud> morn, cold, wet, raining, thunder and lightning
<maskie> frud = ftoud
<maskie> gee cannot spel this morning
<froud> you got 5 thumbs this morning
<maskie> must be the wet cold rainy weather
<froud> yeah, so what's new, hows the kids
<maskie> good ... nothing new otherwise 
<froud> life goes on hey
<froud> see tescum are finally taking a beating in the press
<froud> telscum
<froud> maybe the price of DSL will now come down
<maskie> yes ... i saw ... but i am still very sceptical .... a lot has been said and written .. wonders if anything will really happen
<froud> finaly, although I have yet to see them reduce my bill since the dropped the price a few months back
<froud> when they drop the price are they supposed to drop it also for existing customers
<maskie> i would have thought so ... you have a contract with them 
<froud> nah to busy, but it is on my list, dreading it
<froud> contract yes,
<froud> you cant get service witout that
<froud> perhaps the contract states that I am locked into a price
<froud> I think it was six months
<maskie> so you have this 24 month thing where you got your modem for free
<froud> no I bought the modem
<froud> paid it cash
<froud> but I have has DSL for more than six months
<maskie> the you should not have a contract and they should reduce your price but then that is telscum
<froud> As a business user, still pay 680 a month + 250 for +3GB
<maskie> hmmm ... should a business use not pay 800
<maskie> and as far as i know that did not reduce ... only the residential 680 became 599
<froud> Hmmm, cant remember
<froud> yes you are right
<froud> has business price changed?
<maskie> not as far as i know ... i still have no idea why the business one is a diff one as the residential one ..
<froud> yeah I had that argument with them
<maskie> the equip and line is exactly the same
<froud> they said it was the service level
<froud> business gets priority
<maskie> what service level :)
<froud> yep, I wonder that too
<froud> in general I hardly call them
<froud> the service has been reliable
<froud> from a network perspective that is
<froud> maskie I need a hosting service that is cheap and does not care about bandwidth
<froud> over the last two months my site generated 8GB traffic
<maskie> only option is overseas ...
<maskie> who is hosting at the moment
<froud> http://www.inwords.co.za/stats/index.html
<froud> most of the hits because of K/Ubuntu docs
<froud> a small company in Krugers Dorp
<froud> the admin there is now jacked and pro linux, he installs Gentoo
<maskie> 8GB is probably costing you a bundle ...
<froud> :-) yep
<froud> It's a lot to pay for free contributions
<maskie> i am in the process of moving some of my domains to offshore hosting with unlimited traffic
<froud> where to?
<maskie> still looking at some ... best sofar is some UK company .. it is on one of my other machine .. will get it and let you know
<froud> cool
#ubuntu-doc 2005-05-05
<froud> African Greetings
<maskie> froud you should take it slow on a sunday ... morning
<froud-work> :-) tell my customers that
<froud-work> I have to write two brochures today, one on Inventory Optimization and one on Business Inteligence
<froud-work> and the bottle of Zonneblom Merlot I had last night is not helping
<maskie> i can imagine ....
<maskie> have you any idea when Thomas is leaving TSF?
<froud-work> he said this is his lat month
<froud-work> last
<froud-work> when I spoke to him last he was busy wrapping up stuff
<froud-work> I think he is still negotiating doing contract work fro GOS
<maskie> i see ... thanks ... so they would need somebody from 1 May which is in a week!
<froud-work> I guess, but you know these types of orgs move slow
<froud-work> Knysna dude
<maskie> yes i know ... almost as slow as the gov ... Knysna????
<froud-work> Like everything in Knysna, is hey chill bro and pass the spliff
<froud-work> knysna dude
<froud-work> no sense of urgency
<maskie> ok gotit .. african time
<froud-work> :-), yeah, I can speak to tsblack and see how he is doing. maybe get some feedback without mentioning you
<froud-work> hint for you
<maskie> thanks would appreciate it .... 
<maskie> all the help will be appreciated
<froud-work> ;-) lekker
<maskie> i will now leave you to carru on with your work ... while i run to the shop .. see ya later
<froud-work> Ok and milk the cows while you are out there
<froud-work> cheers
<maskie> will do
<mdke> froud-work, some one has written a script to check the status and grab po files from rosetta... i'm taking a look at it now
<froud-work> cool
<mdke> looks pretty cool
<mdke> can't get it working atm
<mdke> froud-work, ok it works, its mad cool
<froud-work> document it in wiki and checkin the script to svn
<mdke> i need to edit it to do the docteam stuff
<froud-work> sure, once you have done that
<mdke> this is it on the author's project: http://pastebin.ca/10185
<mdke> froud-work, problem is, it will only work for me
<froud-work> yes you need a user and pass
<mdke> oh no, maybe it will work for everyone
<froud-work> but that is good
<mdke> froud-work, i think normal user should have sufficient permissions to get the po files
<froud-work> ok
<froud-work> sorry working today, cant stop and chat to much
<mdke> we can test it if I manage to edit it successfully
<mdke> np froud-work i'll see ya later
<froud-work> ok
<mdke> ok it works a treat
<froud-work> magic, eventually we will be able to automate the whole thing as much possible giving more time for core work :-) love it dude. thanks
<mdke> i'm not going to commit it for two reasons: 1. rosetta hasn't got any breezy translations and urls might change; 2. I haven't figured out how to get it to put the files in specific lang directories yet
<mdke> froud-work, but i'll use it for checking the status of hoary translations
<mdke> then when rosetta goes breezy, i'll sort it and check it in
<froud-work> commit to teamstuff and add this information as comments to the files head.
<froud-work> This way we can all get visability and people may come to the table with solutions
<froud-work> th emore eye-balls the better
<froud-work> :-)
<mdke> sure
<mdke> i'll post to the list
<mdke> i don't know python so someone can probably help
<froud-work> exactly. we need to try capture such gems into our processes and automate them as best possible if we are to cope when the pressure mounts.
<mdke> yup
<mdke> the guy who wrote the script is the author of a program in rosetta (not ubuntu related) called gnome-recipe-manager ;)
<froud-work> He he, perhaps if I tell my mrs. about it she will finally allow me to move her computer to Linux :-)
<mdke> you'll need krecipe-manager i guess...
<froud-work> I'll be happy with just gnome, just want her to move from windows
<mdke> :))
<mdke> http://grecipe-manager.sourceforge.net/
<froud-work> showed her that OOo Calc can run her Excell sheets and formulas the other day, so we are one step closer, I think
<mdke> cool
<mdke> keep working
<mdke> i'll get my gf on linux if it kills me
<froud-work> yeah, but she is a windows die-hard
<froud-work> laggard delux when it comes to technology changes
<mdke> my parents are like that
<froud-work> she will move when everyone else has done so :-)
<mdke> tell her using linux is cool
<froud-work> you know, when we are finished with the application layer of the docteam, we will have a kick-ass system here
<mdke> :)
<mdke> i'm just going for a shower
<froud-work> other projects manage i18n externally, but with us it is integral
* froud-work thought something smelt funny
<mdke> heh
<abelli> does anybody here know what burning app is going to be supported in ubuntu?
#ubuntu-doc 2005-05-06
<Kinnison> Morning
<mdke> hi Kinnison 
<Burgundavia> salut Kinnison, how is aussie?
<Kinnison> Tiring currently :-)
<cc> hypatia: why do i get the funny feeling you're sitting right opposite of me? ;-)
<hypatia> I might be.
<Burgundavia> cc, where you at mataro>
<cc> Burgundavia: nope
<Burgundavia> hmm
<hypatia> I'm up the front of mdz's session next to daniels and near elmo.
<Burgundavia> didn't meet you then
<hypatia> I'm all in black.
<cc> hypatia: okay, then it isn't you ;-)
<hypatia> heh
<cc> i'm at the back
<hypatia> cc: well, feel free to come say hello in the break.
<hypatia> I'm really tall too, so that should reduce the chance of getting the wrong person.
<cc> hypatia: were you by any chance of computerbank fame?
<hypatia> Nup.
<cc> okay, guess i'm confused
* hypatia looks at cc's real name
<hypatia> Oh right, I know who you are now.
<hypatia> Because you got mentioned by Mark :)
<cc> hypatia: heh, right
<hypatia> So, if anyone has any comments on how Rosetta could better target our workflow... now's a good time to talk.
<hypatia> Because the Rosetta One Point Zero discussion is about to start.
<Burgundavia> no idea, sorry
<Burgundavia> I have never used it
<Burgundavia> oh
<Burgundavia> actually
<Burgundavia> there are some bugs taht need to be worked out
<Burgundavia> hypatia, you there?
<hypatia> yep.
<Burgundavia> ok
<Burgundavia> got some ideas
<Burgundavia> 1. when translating a locale, show other locales of the same language
<Burgundavia> 2. Be able to specify what language the pot file is in, and those that language would be automatically translated
<hypatia> Ok.
<hypatia> I'm not sure how much of this I can raise right now, but I will make sure to draw Carlos's attention to it in the next day.
<Burgundavia> be bold!
<thegreedyturtle> ok
<Burgundavia> helloo
<Burgundavia> this is the channel for the ubuntu documentation team
<thegreedyturtle> helloooo there in internet land
<Burgundavia> of which I am a member
<Burgundavia> I like the idea of the wiki
<thegreedyturtle> :)
<Burgundavia> unfortunately, the Ubuntu way to promote the tools we have, most especially the GUI tools
<Burgundavia> also, less is more useful in my opinion
<Burgundavia> we also work in our svn repo
<Burgundavia> so I don't want to discourage you, but it also good not to duplicate efforts, so as to concentrate on one good set of docs
<thegreedyturtle> tell me more about the svn repository
<Burgundavia> we work with docbook xml in the svn repo
<thegreedyturtle> The reason I made this is really because I keep answering the same questions over at #ubuntu, and I wanted people to understand Linux better, it's really mostly about linux
<Burgundavia> you can check out at
<Burgundavia>      https://docteam.ubuntu.com/repos/trunk
<thegreedyturtle> that's an interesting idea about being GUI based
<Burgundavia> also, what people on #ubuntu really need are little docs for the specific problem they have right now, like enabling universe or ati drivers
<Burgundavia> such as BinaryDriverHowTo
<Burgundavia> if you want to work on the wiki, the really needed thing is a "first 20 minutes", here are the needed faqs to get you going meta page
<Burgundavia> they are working at NewFrontPage i think on that
<thegreedyturtle> http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/DocTeamTestingNewFrontPage ?
<Burgundavia> maybe that
<Burgundavia> I hate our wiki with a passion
<thegreedyturtle> heh, i tend to lean towards that attitude as well
<thegreedyturtle> i don't like it because it's just not well organized atm
<Burgundavia> I like wikis, but I hate ours
<thegreedyturtle> and as you said, the little important things just aren't really there
<Burgundavia> well most of them are
<Burgundavia> BinaryDriverHowTo is for ati/nvidia
<Burgundavia> ExtraRepos needs work
<Burgundavia> and RestrictedFormats
<Burgundavia> those are the biggest three
<thegreedyturtle> my biggest problem is that i don't know much about the specific stuff (yet), hence i started on the general
<Burgundavia> what the wiki si good for is lots of little pages that are well organized
<Burgundavia> generally
<thegreedyturtle> is there a doc explaining more about how you want to be more GUI focused?
<Burgundavia> not really
<Burgundavia> current it is just a pipe dream
<Burgundavia> for the wiki that is
<Burgundavia> we are looking at setting up apache lenya so we can discard the wiki for docs
<Burgundavia> and edit on the web in our svn repo
<thegreedyturtle> i think i get what you are saying - you are mostly saying that this kind of doc is bad for the wiki
<Burgundavia> big docs are always better in smaller pieces, for me at least
<thegreedyturtle> since the wiki needs to be a collection of small docs
<thegreedyturtle> yeah
<Burgundavia> I hate reading a 40 page thing to get one piece of info
<thegreedyturtle> i thought about breaking it up, but it builds on itself, it's designed to be a 'start from scratch' sort of thing, and to be honest it probably shouldn't be on the wiki, but i don't really have anywhere to put it
<Burgundavia> there is a lot of start from scratch ideas being thrown around right now
<Burgundavia> as we just started the breezy cycle for the doc team
<Burgundavia> I suggest you subscribe to ubuntu-doc and join the dicussion
<thegreedyturtle> is that a mailing list, or this channel
<Burgundavia> mailing list
<thegreedyturtle> ok
<Burgundavia> that doc must of taken a lot of effort, so we can probably use it
<thegreedyturtle> :)
<thegreedyturtle> i'd like that, but i won't hate you if you decide not to
<thegreedyturtle> what should I do with it for now?
<Burgundavia> leave it there
<thegreedyturtle> easy enough
<Burgundavia> maybe put some links at the top to the three pages I just mentioned
<thegreedyturtle> well, i guess this means it's about time i got around to reading that online Subversion book
<thegreedyturtle> how do you mean?
<thegreedyturtle> something like 'if you want to add to this, please add to these instead'
<Burgundavia> yah
<Burgundavia> If you want to Enable 3D acceleration, see  binarydriver
<Burgundavia> If you want to enable universe and multiverse, see blah
<thegreedyturtle> ah
<thegreedyturtle> and if you want restricted formats...
<Burgundavia> I would say, if you want to play DVD's or watch movies, see
<Burgundavia> to be clear, as the titles of the pages aren't very clear
<thegreedyturtle> i see what you are saying
<Burgundavia> I keep meaning to do it, but I then I use the wiki and I get disgusted and do something else
<thegreedyturtle> i have a question about somethin, how closely related to ubuntu is the ubuntu backports repo?
<thegreedyturtle> it seems to be on ubuntuforums.org, but...
<Burgundavia> backports is unofficial
<Burgundavia> done by people in the repos
<Burgundavia> you can write something about it
<Burgundavia> but be very clear the dangers
<thegreedyturtle> right
<Burgundavia> I have never used them, as I usually run the devel version
<Burgundavia> and can wait for the latest crack
<hypatia> what's a "How's Come"?
<hypatia> I'm wondering specifically about the apostrophe :)
<hypatia> http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/UbuntuHowsCome
<Burgundavia> I think it should be UbuntuHowCome
<Burgundavia> hows is a common esl mistake
<hypatia> I figured that: I didn't know about that being a common mistake.
<thegreedyturtle> I did it on purpose to make it cloes to HowTo, but i guess its not very professional
<hypatia> I think the title is OK... it's just that the phrase is "How come", not "How's come"
<hypatia> ie "How come Ubuntu doesn't have DVD support?" rather than "How's come Ubuntu doesn't have DVD support?"
<thegreedyturtle> ah i see
<thegreedyturtle> what's the ExtraRepos wiki page?
<thegreedyturtle> BreakMyUbuntu?
<thegreedyturtle> AddingRepositoriesHowto?
<Burgundavia> those probably all be combined into one I think
<hypatia> BreakMyUbuntu seems to be a guide to adding unsupported (and possibly broken) repositories.
<Burgundavia> the only repo you need is marilliat
<hypatia> Hmmm, AddingRepositoriesHowto seems to be a bit different.
<Burgundavia> and possible backports
<Burgundavia> adding should be about universe/multiverse
<hypatia> It is an instruction, the others are lists of repositories.
<thegreedyturtle> ok
<Burgundavia> salut froud 
<froud> African Greetings
<froud> he he beat me to it this morning
<Burgundavia> read the log
<Burgundavia> I have shaghaiied another person
<froud> ok, what's the case with http://udu.wiki.ubuntu.com/HighPriority
<Burgundavia> he even likes the wiki
<Burgundavia> no idea?
<hypatia> The BOFs have three priorities in terms of which of them should result in specs by the end of the UDU conference.
<hypatia> The HighPriority ones are the highest priority, the ones that it is really important to get specifications for.
<hypatia> Priorities are assigned by Canonical management I think.
<Burgundavia> ah
<Burgundavia> hypatia, what is HCT?
<hypatia> The Hypothetical Changeset Tool.
<hypatia> I don't know exactly what it does.
<hypatia> I gather it's going to be for package maintainers.
<hypatia> They can gather together different patches using Bazaar or something.
<hypatia> The rough idea of a lot of what is in the high priority list is that the Ubuntu releases are meant to move onto the Launchpad infrastructure over the course of the Breezy cycle.
<froud> Hmm, no mention of documentation
<Burgundavia> froud, almost none of us are there
<froud> Can anyone edit HighPriority
<Burgundavia> no idea
<froud> point 14 Edubuntu
<froud> another distro
<Burgundavia> that can simply be a metapackage
<Burgundavia> looks very cool though
<froud> Certification and Training
<froud> looks interesting
<froud> I already put forward a proposal to sabfdl to develop courseware
<froud> will be interesting to see what comes out of it
<hypatia> froud: No, I don't think anyone can edit high priority.
<hypatia> You can add a BOF and ask them to priortise it.
<hypatia> But they don't want you to unless you're prepared to lead the BoF.
<froud> Yeah I see
<Burgundavia> little difficult if you are not their
<Burgundavia> s/their/there
<hypatia> Yeah.
<froud> Is there a video or audio stream for tuning into specific bofs
<hypatia> I don't know whether the spec process will continue in a non face-to-face way.
<hypatia> froud: No.
<froud> :-(
<hypatia> Bandwidth is very limited here.
<hypatia> They had a lot of trouble finding a hotel that was willing to give them access at all.
<froud> Is there aplace for Internet land to place comnets
<hypatia> Also, most BoFs here are two or three people sitting at a table.
<hypatia> No, there doesn't seem to be a specific place.
<hypatia> #ubuntu-devel is probably the best option.
<hypatia> A lot of devels/conference admins are there.
<froud> Ah well then that will be hectic
<Burgundavia> nah, is pretty quiet
<froud> well, I guess it best just to sit and wait
<Burgundavia> not many violations of the 5m rule
<froud> let them get the talking over
<hypatia> The idea is that every BoF results in a detailed spec written up by the person nominated as lead.
<hypatia> In a way, that's probably even more useful than a video feed.
<hypatia> Decisions, written down :)
<froud> yeah I understand it
<hypatia> I raised documentation briefly at the brainstorm this morning.
<hypatia> They were interested, but there's noone core from docteam here.
<froud> where is js
<froud> oh well since there is no way to collaborate on this, I guess sitting on the side is what we can do. Shit wish we had a reporter over there
<hypatia> a reporter in what sense?
<hypatia> you'd need several with this schedule :)
<hypatia> 5 bofs running side by side.
<froud> reporters are good at getting info from people and giving general coverage
<Burgundavia> the lwn person should be there
<froud> some kind of daily on Ubuntu Traffic would be good
<hypatia> I hope mako does a summary at the end.
<hypatia> But I know that he, jdub, jane silber and mark are spending like six hours every day just scheduling the next day.
<hypatia> yuck.
<Burgundavia> mataro was crazy
<Burgundavia> up at 8
<Burgundavia> finish the conference at 8pm
<Burgundavia> eat and socialize till midnight
<Burgundavia> sleep
<hypatia> it's 9am start, 8:15 finish here.
<Burgundavia> also, nothing was open to eat dinner at in Spain until 9pm
<hypatia> here they're eating in the hotel.
<froud> MacDonalds
<Burgundavia> blegh
<froud> breakfast lunch and supper
<froud> then dont eat it for a year
<Burgundavia> just before I quit my job I was on the road for 2 weeks
<Burgundavia> fast food everyday
<Burgundavia> made me sick for a week after I finished
<Burgundavia> normally I am almost vegetarian
<froud> mmm no gimme a fat steak anyday
<Burgundavia> I like steak, but I don't eat it much
<froud> Ah well dudes, time for me to get the day started
* froud looks at his agenda and sees, "write whitepaper on COBOL"
<Burgundavia> COBOL, didn't that die with *BSD?
<froud> this should be a blast from the past
<froud> actually not
<froud> there are around 70 billion lines in action and 5 billion added each year
<froud> according to Gartner
<froud> It may be old, but is still in use
<froud> my research shows that there have been many attempts to rewrite systems that were written in COBOL, 98% failed or the functionality of the new app was not equal to the old app
<Burgundavia> lines tells me that phb's still like it
<froud> phb's?
<Burgundavia> point haired bosses
<Burgundavia> a term from dilbert
<froud> actually there is a good business here
<froud> as the old cobol dudes die
<froud> who is gonna maintain and update the code
<froud> Hmmm. There is a fortune to be made
<froud> I am only 37 and already my COBOL experience is paying me mega bucks since I can understand the code and write documents, even though COBOL is very much self documenting
<Burgundavia> nice
<froud> also you must consider that the licensing fees for cobol are very cheap these days
<froud> work is plenty since virtually every business application vendor in the ERP market has a huge base of cobol running in the back end
<froud> try like 30 years of code
<froud> so in times of downturn, COBOL is a blessing :-)
<froud> he he check it out a main high street store finally boxes Linux
<froud> -AMD Semprom [sic]  2.4GHz
<froud> -128MB RAM
<froud> -LG CD-ROM
<froud> -40GB Hard drive
<froud> -15" LG Monitor
<froud> -160W Speakers
<froud> -56K Internal Modem
<froud> -LINUX Operating System
<froud> -1 Year Guarantee
<froud> No a machin efor me
<froud> but it is good that they are starting to box them off the shelf
<Burgundavia> you can't buy linux preinstalled in victoria
<Burgundavia> or for that matter, do I know anywhere that does it
<froud> Hmm maybe co.za is not so technologically retarded afterall
<froud> well chaps school run and then work, c ya later
<Burgundavia> cya
<hypatia> Has there been any concensus about changes to http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/UserDocumentation
<hypatia> ie whether they're needed and what form they should take?
<Burgundavia> what sort?
<Burgundavia> yes we need some
<hypatia> I was thinking of trying to group things into tasks a bit more.
<hypatia> But is the concensus in favour of making that enormous list shorter?
<hypatia> I might poke EverydayUsage instead.
* froud corrects a previous statement about COBOL
<froud> Over 180 Billion lines of COBOL are in use today
<froud> with an estimated 5 billion new lines aded per year
<mdke> morning all
<froud> morn
<abelli> ciao mondo .
<abelli> by now what guides (from you) are avaible to the end user?
<mdke> froud, you think this page can be deleted? http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/DocbookTestHtml
<froud> yep:-)
<mdke> thanks
<Burgundavia> opinions? http://img24.echo.cx/img24/4998/ubuntubrochure8xr.png
<jjesse> that looks cool burgundavia
<Burgundavia> I am actually looking for critiques
<Burgundavia> but thanks
<Burgundavia> hoping to send this to the printers today
<jjesse> looking good is not a critque? i think it looks really nice
<froud> uhum, what am I looking at :-)
<Burgundavia> brochure for handing out at trade shows
<Burgundavia> not finished
<froud> Is it a cover, inside or ?
<Burgundavia> just a page to hand out
<froud> most wanted response?
<mdke> looks very nice
<froud> from person receiving it?
<mdke> what goes in the bottom box?
<Burgundavia> stuff about hoary
<Burgundavia> gnome 2.10, etc.
<mdke> cool
<mdke> not my favourite colour, but looks very pro
<Burgundavia> ugh
<Burgundavia> is there an easy way to get more fonts?
<Burgundavia> froud, what did you recommend for fonts again?
<froud> I di dnot recommend
<froud> Burgundavia: I am having trouble understanding the message. What is the "Most wanted response."
<Burgundavia> you mentioned some good, recommended fonts for using a while back
<froud> did I, can't remember but normally Helvetica for headings on brochures and Arial light for body texts
<Burgundavia> ok
<Burgundavia> hmm
<Burgundavia> does  helvetica go by another name?
<froud> but Burgundavia, think about your most wanted response before design
<froud> No
<Burgundavia> hmm
<Burgundavia> yes froud?
<froud> sorry, not meaning to push
<froud> just know that the design should not be the message but supportive thereof :-)
<Burgundavia> no no
<Burgundavia> is good to get input
<Burgundavia> I have been floundering on this for weeks
<froud> I think you can safely say that the colors are Ubuntu. The thing now is to focus on what it is you want people to know and when they know, what you want them to do.
<Burgundavia> ah
<Burgundavia> true
<froud> So for example, is your message "Ubuntu - Linux for Human Beings that just, works!!!"
<froud> Ubuntu Linux, For Humanity, for You
<froud> Ubuntu Linux, For Humanity, for Yourself
<froud> something that catches and prompts curiosity
<froud> prompting the reader to focus longer on the page
<froud> read a little more
<Burgundavia> ok
<Burgundavia> some new ideas http://img256.echo.cx/img256/5281/ubuntubrochure5ca.png
<froud> what tool you using, inkscape or gimp?
<Burgundavia> jeffsch, I have putting together a one page brochure for ubuntu. critique at http://img256.echo.cx/img256/5281/ubuntubrochure5ca.png
<Burgundavia> inkscape
<Burgundavia> vector art is your friend
<froud> yep agreed, magic tool
<jeffsch> Burgundavia: who is the audience?
<froud> yep good question
<froud> audience, message, response in that order
<Burgundavia> technical crowd at LFNW
<froud> LFNW
<Burgundavia> linuxfest northwest
<froud> Ah ha
<Burgundavia> expect the audience to already use/develop linux/FLOSS
<froud> expecting linux users 
<froud> Ubuntu Linux for what?
<froud> developering, working or playing?
<froud> Ubuntu Linux - For Humanity - For Yourself - At Work - At Play
<Burgundavia> hmm
<froud> get it for yourself
<froud> sorry just throwing phrases
<jeffsch> Burgundavia: what is the purpose of it? Is it to spread the word?
<Burgundavia> basically
<Burgundavia> hey, any ideas are good
<jeffsch> I would change the order of the text
<jeffsch> put Based on Debian Sid first
<Burgundavia> ok
<jeffsch> then six month release cycle
<Burgundavia> the stuff on the right is quick facts about Ubuntu
<Burgundavia> ok, the order now is:
<Burgundavia> debian sid
<Burgundavia> 6 month
<Burgundavia> 18 month
<Burgundavia> latest gnome
<Burgundavia> one cd
<Burgundavia> really cool release names
<jeffsch> after 6 month, what is most important to people at lfnw? support cycle, or desktop?
<Burgundavia> there are some companies there, so support cycle is good
<jeffsch> ok
<Burgundavia> also, it sets us apart from FC
<Burgundavia> which has a messy process
<Burgundavia> to say the least
<jeffsch> make sure it says "Based on..." and not based off
<jeffsch> it looks good
<Burgundavia> ok
<Burgundavia> I will hack some more
<Burgundavia> ok, take a peak now http://img57.echo.cx/img57/8826/ubuntubrochure0sz.png
<jeffsch> hmmm... 
<jeffsch> left and right margins should be the same
<jeffsch> make the quick facts section lower, then you can move it to the left
<jeffsch> move the "how to get" to one of the margins, say the left
<jeffsch> you might not need the words "quick facts"
<Burgundavia> ok
<jeffsch> will they know what shipit is? maybe say free cd or something
<jeffsch> just my 2 cents
<jeffsch> oh, and maybe somehow mention that ubuntu 5.04 (hoary hedgehog) is the latest release
<Burgundavia> the blank section is for about the latest release
<froud> anyone speak French?
<jeffsch> je m'excuse, mais je parle seulment un petit peu 
<froud> is there an accent of the e in the phrase Viva Le X!!!
<jeffsch> no
<jeffsch> but it's vive, not viva
<froud> Ok an this means something like long live x, right?
<froud> Vive and Viva are terms used in the Romance languages. Vive, in French, and Viva, in Spanish and Italian, mean, "long live."
<jeffsch> loosely, it means more like hooray for X!
<froud> correct
<froud> Hmm OK
<froud> thanks
<jeffsch> but literally, yes, long live X
<froud> Cool I know have the title to my whitepaper, "Vive Le COBOL!"
<froud> Jeez this customer asks me to write a paper displelling the myths about COBOL. Man have I learned allot :-)
<jjesse> l
* jeffsch is away: I'll be back
<mdke> mvirkkil, good work on the wiki :)
<mvirkkil> mdke: Thanks. Should be working, but no inspiration -> fiddling around :P
<mvirkkil> I stumbled upon several pages that said "Don't mess with this page. We know karate" :D
<mvirkkil> Didn't dare to mess.
<mvirkkil> Also it seems that the German Loc's page sais they are going to standardize on Restructured Text. According to the "New Wiki Announcement" all were to standardize on ReST and convert the old moin moin pages to that. What happened?
<mvirkkil> mdke: Are you still around?
#ubuntu-doc 2005-05-07
<mdke> mvirkkil, i am now, shoot
<mdke> mvirkkil, not sure what happened. Anyhow I guess that must have been a long time ago
<mdke> mvirkkil, btw you are well fast at converting to moin :)
<mdke> how the hell you do it i dunno
<mvirkkil> I pick the easy ones ;-)
<mvirkkil> But those last html pages are going to be a pain to convert.
<mdke> *grins*
<mdke> not so bad with a text editor and find/replace
<mdke> we'll get em done
<mvirkkil> Have fun ;-) 
<mdke> btw the german users have their own wiki
<mdke> maybe the loco pages are out of date i dunno
<mvirkkil> When are the other input formats going to be disabled?
<mdke> mvirkkil, probably never
<mvirkkil> :-/
<mvirkkil> I guess this was prett pointelss then,
<mdke> mvirkkil, there are many things which its not worth worrying about when the future of the wiki is a bit uncertain
<mdke> mvirkkil, why pointless?
<mvirkkil> Why convert all the pages to moin, when people will just create more pages in the other formats.
<mvirkkil> An endless race.
<mvirkkil> Doesn't sound very productive,.
<mdke> moin is now default
<mdke> there are some rare cases where other formats might be justifiable
<mdke> but there is a suggestion that the wiki will be moved to another engine soon, so it is not worth worrying about some of the fine details
<mvirkkil> I agree. But for 99% there isn't.
<mvirkkil> mdke: MediaWiki?
<mdke> v unlikely
<mvirkkil> mdke: What engine then?
<mdke> current idea is moinmoin i believe
<mdke> they've been testing one here: http://udu.wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDownUnder
<mvirkkil> I've used it.
<mvirkkil> Can't fiugre out how to see any other changes besides the very last one.
<mdke> hmm
<mvirkkil> Other than that, I don't mind moinmoin. It has better support for the sntax than zwiki .
<mdke> i'm happy with anything tbg
<mdke> tbh
<mdke> i'm just gonna wait and see what happens
<mvirkkil> What are you working on atm, if you dont mind me asking?
<mdke> me personally?
<mvirkkil> Yeah.
<mdke> i help out where i can think of something
<mvirkkil> For Ubuntu that is. Or 
<mvirkkil> for the documentation project.
<mdke> i have been helping with getting our documentation translated
<mdke> and just doing some wiki gardening
<mdke> and i help out in the italian team
<mdke> hey you've read my page :)
<mvirkkil> I guess everyone is doing some "wait and see" bc of udu.
<mdke> *shrugs*
<mdke> i have college, and lots of people have jobs
<mdke> we've been restructuring our repository recently in order to start working on the breezy docs, hopefully work will resume as normal soon
<mdke> its normal for the time after a release to be occupied with ideas about how to make the next release cycle more efficient/better
<mvirkkil> Is there any way to have a link to http://ubuntulinux.org/wiki/IconApt.png without showing the image?
<mdke> lemme se
<mvirkkil> Found it
<mdke> [http://ubuntulinux.org/wiki/IconApt.png iconapt.png] 
<mvirkkil> Yes :-)
<mdke> stupid linking guide
<mdke> have amended it
<mdke> the icon it used as an example is down so it doesn't come up clearly on that page
<mvirkkil> I added the images to WikiGardeningIcons.
<mvirkkil> I'm planning to use it as a reference of images.
<mdke> IconsPage might be a better one
<mvirkkil> Oh.. Hadn't seen that before.
<mdke> dunno how complete either of them are
<jsgotangco> christ what a disaster for me
<jsgotangco> i just got online today!
<jsgotangco> grrr
<mdke> its only the second day
<mdke> chill dude
<mdke> having fun?
<jsgotangco> jeezz
<jsgotangco> fabio just fixed some ad-hoc on his machine
<jsgotangco> the network here is crazy atm
<mdke> *laughs*
<jsgotangco> i never even saw mary
<jsgotangco> jeez
<mdke> shame
<jsgotangco> my 1st day was a disaster
<mdke> well get along to the Lang Pack meeting today
<jsgotangco> with carlos?
<mdke> and wikitransition
<jsgotangco> ill go there
<mdke> and let us know what happens
<jsgotangco> ill grab the sched first
<jsgotangco> mdke, if i still get online jeez
<jsgotangco> i hope they get the new aps soon
<mdke> *grins*
<jsgotangco> i should grab some win drivers just in case
<jsgotangco> all my cards wont even work
<mdke> tut tut
<mdke> should have fixed the computer before going :p
<jsgotangco> i forgot my driver cds!
<mdke> it stopped working on route?
<jsgotangco> yeah
<mdke> :/
<jsgotangco> well i got some stuff working now
<jsgotangco> got 45 minutes to get the drivers ehe
<mdke> http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/UnabashedCzechColonialism
<mdke> l18n czech slovak wars
<jsgotangco> the chinese thing was mentioned yesterday
<jsgotangco> hmm
<jsgotangco> i think mary is that lovely tall lady yesterday
<jsgotangco> *shame*
<mdke> she said she was in black
<mdke> what chinese thing?
<jsgotangco> hmm right that's her..she's quite a looker
<jsgotangco> she didn't have a nametag so i didnt know
* mdke reports jsgotangco for sexism
<jsgotangco> DOH
<mdke> *laughs*
<mdke> gtg to bed
<jsgotangco> ok
<jsgotangco> talk to you later
<mdke> i'm already having to ditch a lecture tomorrow morning
<mdke> jsgotangco, have fun dude
<mdke> oh jsgotangco one more thing
<mdke> actually np
<mdke> night
<jsgotangco> what
<mkde> bah
<mkde> bed is for wimps
<mkde> jsgotangco, the other meeting i thought might be interesting was the LocoTeam one
<mkde> what do you reckon
<jsgotangco> when is that
<mkde> can't remember
<jsgotangco> lemme check
<jsgotangco> i see a locoteam process bof with mako and smurfix
<mkde> thats the one
<jsgotangco> wiki translation is this evening
<jsgotangco> i mean
<jsgotangco> wiki transition
<mkde> heh
<mkde> yes
<mkde> what do you reckon of the loco team one?
<jsgotangco> oh there's ubuntu world tour
<jsgotangco> hmm
<jsgotangco> ill check it out
<jsgotangco> mako is there anyway
<mkde> what is ubuntu world tour?
<jsgotangco> hmm
<jsgotangco> i think they plan to go to some stuff to promote ubuntu
<jsgotangco> probably south east asia
<jsgotangco> jdub told me about it days ago before UDU
<mkde> pretty cool
<jsgotangco> like a rock concert
<jsgotangco> haha
<mkde> :p
<mkde> so how long are you gonna be there?
<jsg_> mdke, wake up translationteam BOF is about to begin
<mvirkkil> mdke: http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/ChangeTimezoneHowto has images that don't end in png.
<froud> African Greetings
<jsgotangco> doh
<jsgotangco> hypatia, are you there?
<hypatia> I'm at my keybaord.
<hypatia> I'm not at UDU.
<hypatia> I'm at work.
<jsgotangco> i didnt see you!
<jsgotangco> where you here yesterday?
<hypatia> Yes.
<jsgotangco> doh
<hypatia> I thought you were going to be at RosettaOnePointZero?
<hypatia> Anyway, I saw you, but I didn't get a chance to grab you :)
<jsgotangco> eh?
<jsgotangco> by chance are you the tall lady
<hypatia> Yes.
<jsgotangco> ahhh
<jsgotangco> yes
<jsgotangco> charmed
<hypatia> :)
<hypatia> I might be around for a little while on Saturday.
<jsgotangco> that's great let's catch up on things by then
<hypatia> OK.
<jsgotangco> im sorry i wasn't able to join you on rosetta
<hypatia> I'll let you know sometime Friday when I'll be there.
<jsgotangco> ok
<hypatia> Probably Saturday afternoon/evening.
<jsgotangco> that would rock
<hypatia> Great.
<hypatia> OK, see you then.
<hypatia> I'm going home now.
<jsgotangco> ok
<Burgundavia> salut
<hypatia> hello
<Burgundavia> how was UDU?
<hypatia> it was pretty chaotic.
<hypatia> They're trying to make an enormous amount of decisions in one week.
<hypatia> all the core people are trying to attend four meetings simultaneously.
<Burgundavia> indeed
<Burgundavia> I noticed that
<mdke> do they write up decisions taken?
<mdke> wb
<mdke> mvirkkil, will get on it
<jsgotangco> hey hey
<mdke> hiya
<mdke> hows tricks
<jsgotangco> tricks?
<mdke> how are you?
<jsgotangco> ohhh
<jsgotangco> im ok
<jsgotangco> im in an artwork bof
<mdke> nice
<mdke> what time is it there?
<jsgotangco> hmmm 7:30PM
<mdke> oh you're in DesktopArtwork?
<jsgotangco> yeah
<mdke> YOU DIDN'T GO TO WIKITRANSITION? *slaps*
<mdke> :p
<jsgotangco> DOH..i thought you had it arranged
<mdke> me?
<jsgotangco> we hates the wiki but i'll catch up for you
<mdke> don't worry am only kidding
<jsgotangco> well i think they're moving it back to moin
<mdke> the udu wiki is not too bad
<jsgotangco> sure...
<mdke> what the hell are they doing putting me in bofs
<mdke> there's also this one: RolloutGuide with froud and me (?!)
<jsgotangco> well you are the most visible in wiki
<jsgotangco> huh where is that?
<jsgotangco> lemme check
<mdke> i thought perhaps that scheduling bofs with people who are at the conference is maybe an idea
<mdke> flattered tho i am
<jsgotangco> where did you get that rollout guide
<mdke> on the wiki
<jsgotangco> today's sched?
<mdke> no just did a search for me
<mdke> to make sure i wasn't gonna be in any more
<jsgotangco> ohhh its probably not scheduled yet
* mdke nods
<mdke> just saw the page, not the schedule
<jsgotangco> its in low priority
* mdke nods
<jsgotangco> i dont think it;ll be scheduled
<jsgotangco> probably
<jsgotangco> i even did PDA doh
<mdke> interesting idea
<jsgotangco> ok i'll be back
<mdke> that was fast
<jsgotangco> we didnt have dinner yet
<mdke> *grins*
<mdke> what's the weather like over there?
<jsgotangco> oh very nice around 22C
<jsgotangco> a bit cloudy though
<mdke> 11 here
<mdke> :)
<jsgotangco> doh in manila its like 35C
<mdke> *grins*
<mdke> too hot for me
<jsgotangco> but i like sydney
<jsgotangco> there are so many parks
<jsgotangco> i notice people are crazy over jogging here
<mdke> yeah australians are fit
<mdke> hey you can go and watch cricket
<jsgotangco> lol
<mdke> :p
<jsgotangco> the cable on this hotel kinda sucks though, you need to pay $2 to watch the news
<mdke> *laughs*
<jsgotangco> even though this conference is like a gulag, we're being fed well
<mdke> whats for dinner
<jsgotangco> im not so sure
<jsgotangco> its always different
<jsgotangco> our lunch was like 8 kinds of pizza
<mdke> man i'm jealous
<jsgotangco> i miss my rice though
<mdke> sitting in this shitty london weather
<jsgotangco> we're planning a big world tour
<jsgotangco> we should be there
<mdke> where?
<jsgotangco> its still open
<jsgotangco> the vatican perhaps
<jsgotangco> haha
<jsgotangco> but sabdfl wants a world tour or a UN Convention
<jsgotangco> "Ubuntu Nations"
<jsgotangco> ehe
* mdke sighs
<mdke> boys with toys
<jsgotangco> oh they're making the bof sched for tommorow
<jsgotangco> that's what's holding dinner
<jsgotangco> the master chief is busy
<jsgotangco> hehe
<mdke> jsgotangco even though this conference is like a gulag <-- explain?
<jsgotangco> we start at 9am and we end like 10pm hehehe
<jsgotangco> its fun
<mdke> ah ic
<jsgotangco> but like i said, you're never going to spend anything here because the food is no problem
<mdke> cool
<mdke> unless you go out late :)
<jsgotangco> there's a goog pizza parlor nearby
<jsgotangco> and king's cross is just around the corner
<mdke> what is that?
<jsgotangco> its an avenue/road something
<mdke> there is a place called kings cross in london
<jsgotangco> some part of it is the red light district
<mdke> damn everyone copies our names
<mdke> SAME IN LONDON!!
<mdke> awesome
<jsgotangco> i heard its a copycat
<jsgotangco> hehe
<jsgotangco> yeah
<jsgotangco> i heard some guys says its a replica
<jsgotangco> hehe
<mdke> cool
<mdke> kings cross in london isn't too bad tho
<jsgotangco> its just nearby the hotel probably 2 blocks
<mdke> its improving :)
<mdke> jsgotangco, you stay away from there y'hear?
* mdke rings jsgotangco's wife
<jsgotangco> no way
<jsgotangco> i went there when i arrived
<jsgotangco> its full of bums
<mdke> *laughs*
<jsgotangco> i found it by mistake
<mdke> yeah yeah
<mdke> course
<jsgotangco> well ok i admit i looked for it
<jsgotangco> but i crossed by a church
<jsgotangco> it was sunday so i went to church first
<mdke> even worse
<mdke> right i'm going for a shower
<mdke> cya later
<jsgotangco> thats why  i didnt roam around
<jsgotangco> ok see ya
<jsgotangco> rock on!
<froud> rock on what?
<jsgotangco> oh ignore me i had a long day tee hee
<froud> you sound pumped :-) good 
<jsgotangco> froud, how are things
<froud> good
<froud> calm
<froud> clear
<froud> collected
<jsgotangco> i couldn't commit stuff right now my laptop is screwed i have to fix stuff
<froud> which means what they hell shall I do first!
<jsgotangco> i will to fix stuff later
<froud> no problem, focus on UDU
<jsgotangco> we just finished dinner sabdfl and the other guys are still doing the sched for tommorow
<froud> he he they must work for their butter
<jsgotangco> right there's a world tour in the works
<froud> yep heard about it
<froud> Ubuntu Nations
<jsgotangco> we'll probably end up going to the vatican and giving the pope a copy
<froud> yeah imagin ethe pope using Ubuntu
<jsgotangco> froud, i just want to ask something
<jsgotangco> on our svn
<jsgotangco> we have this stuff on learn linux
<froud> perhaps the docteam can work some subliminal messages in to the text
<jsgotangco> you reckon this is LPI approved/compliant stuff
<froud> yes
<froud> No it does not comply, why do you ask?
<jsgotangco> because there is a project for a live cd for that
<jsgotangco> cbt thing
<jsgotangco> that is LPI approved
<froud> URL?
<jsgotangco> i told them we can probably play around with existing stuff in side our svn just for proof of concept
<froud> Send me the information I will inlcude it in http://udu.wiki.ubuntu.com/CertificationAndTraining
<jsgotangco> http://udu.wiki.ubuntu.com/TrainingLiveCd
<jsgotangco> oh jbailey was there so its covered well
<froud> Ah yes, that
<froud> yes it is partly covered by my spec on http://udu.wiki.ubuntu.com/CertificationAndTraining
<froud> Perhaps I should link the two
<jsgotangco> perhaps
<jsgotangco> i had a frickin' long day
<jsgotangco> but it was fun
<jsgotangco> at least i got my laptop running on the network
<jsgotangco> yesterday i was so frustrated
<jsgotangco> another thing
<froud> He he and just as you get it working it is time pack and go :-)
<froud> yes
<jsgotangco> is our svn capable of doing stuff like version control when it comes to artwork
<jsgotangco> icons and stuff
<froud> yes
<jsgotangco> i was in the artwork BOF a few hours ago
<froud> I must go collect my son from school
<jsgotangco> ok see ya
<froud> send me mail with your thoughts and will go from there
<jsgotangco> sure sure
<jsgotangco> ok see ya i gotta go  upstairs as well
<abelli> http://www.marzocca.net/linux/ubm.html
<sm-work> hi mdke
<sm-work> what's the convention for image filenames do you remember ?
<sm-work> just add .png ?
<sm-work> and hi everyone else
<sm-work> does anyone know the license/reuse status/author of the new site skin ? not just the css but the actual page templates
<sm-work> mdke: I've done that
<mdke> sm-work, thanks mate
<mdke> no idea about the new skin, but you can contact henrik about it
<sm-work> thx, what's henrik's nick ?
<mdke> umm
<sm-work> np
<mdke> one moment
<sm-work> he's a server admin ?
<mdke> hno73
<mdke> yes i think so
<sm-work> thanks
<mdke> i can get his email address if you want it
<mdke> its on my laptop
<Simira> morning guys. Anyone awake yet?
<mdke> hiya
<Simira> hi there
<mdke> sup?
<Simira> are you involved in translation?
<mdke> yes a little, how can i help?
<Simira> we're having a LoCo-meeting on translation-rutines right now
<mdke> online?
<Simira> well, we were supposed to. Guess it's too late for many
<mdke> chan?
<Simira> I'm trying to figure out some rutines/system for coordinating and validating translations
<Simira> #ubuntu-no
<Simira> but it's in norwegian
<mdke> oh a locospecific meeting :)
<mdke> sorry
<mdke> how can I help anyhow?
<Simira> do you know if there's any such system/routines in other translation teams?
<mdke> are you talking about translating in rosetta or other translations?
<Simira> primarily in Rosetta
<mdke> well i can only speak for the italian team: as yet there is very little method
<Simira> the intention is to not do a lot of double work, and then be able to confirm some kind of validation from a second person befor the package is submitted
<mdke> right, you're talking essentially not for translation but for checking translations right?
<Simira> yes, that's the most important. And that someone can say "I'm working on this pkg right now"
<mdke> well in terms of the first time something is translated, my opinion is that the more people working on a pkg, the better: it will get done quicker. But for _checking_ translations, that is a different matter entirely
<mdke> the only two methods I can think of are a mailing list and a wiki page, in which people note what packages they are checking
<mdke> eventually Rosetta will have a feature whereby people can mark pkgs as double checked
<Simira> yes, we have a wiki on our pages, so I though about using it
<mdke> i think a wiki page is the best option
<mdke> better than a mailing list, because it is all in the same place
<Simira> yes
<mdke> http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/RosettaWishList
<mdke> ^^ for requests :)
<Simira> I know. half of the list is from me :p
<Simira> ah, well, not that list
<mdke> there is another list?
<Simira> but the bug/request-list in Launchpad
<mdke> ah
<mdke> OMG
<mdke> dudes, there is some mad activity going on in the wiki
<mdke> i love the way they don't keep us in the loop
<Simira> heh
<Simira> it's too much to keep up!
<sm> wow.. go henrik :)
<mdke> he's in a frenzy
<mdke> one gets the feeling he's bringing them in from the static part of the website
<mdke> damn i gtg to bed
<sm> I wonder what static part that is
<sm> I can't find them
<mdke> i think its not there anymore
<mdke> used to be http://www.ubuntulinux.org/support/documentation/helpcenter_view maybe?
<sm> links not preserved at http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/HowToReportABug :/
<sm> well, there are too many links on the web anyway
* mdke peers at sm
* sm waves at mdke
<sm> I'm half serious.. a doc with fewer links can be more restful to read
<mdke> broken links are bad for the heart tho
<mdke> don't forget the old adage, he who smelt the broken links, has to fix them
<sm> I don't like how the new skin hides links
<mdke> hmm
<mdke> i don't like the website full stop
<mdke> sm, you heard they are moving the wiki?
<sm> I heard something.. has there been an announcement ?
<mdke> nah but it seems they are agreed on it, they've been discussing it at UDU, apparently
<mdke> we should know more in the next few days
<mdke> there was some suggestion that the docteam might be kept in the loop
<mdke> *coughs*
<mdke> we'll see
<sm> indeed
<mdke> i heard it will take an immense effort to migrate
<mdke> Simira, what else are you guys thinking about the translations
<Simira> mdke: that Rosetta is confusing ;p
<mdke> *grins*
<mdke> well keep filing bugs, requests
<Simira> concerning to where it's syncronized and not, and what lies under hoary and what's under Rosetta only
<Simira> mdke: well, I've filed a good handful in Malone
<mdke> oh you wonder about its relationship with upstream packages?
<Simira> that too
<mdke> what did you mean by syncronization?
<Simira> it has to be mentioned, I'm not well familiar with packages/upstreams and general routines around that
<Simira> mdke: where is the po-files from, and how do we know they're the last update
<mdke> i don't quite follow you: the po files are imported from upstream, and then you guys update em no?
<Simira> mdke: yes, but the point is, in some cases there are newer files than those in upstream...
<mdke> but where?
<Simira> available other places, I mean....
<mdke> in rosetta itself you mean?
<Simira> yes
<mdke> well i presume they are merged
<mdke> but carlos will be able to tell you that in a second
<Simira> yes, I'm waiting for him and daf to get on
<mdke> ok
<mdke> he is good with email too
<mdke> generally a well organised guy
<Simira> I know, it's just we'd like some answers on certain points right now
<mdke> do you have a list of stuff? maybe I can help, i've been hammering carlos with questions recently
<mdke> dunno anything about relationship with upstream tho
#ubuntu-doc 2005-05-08
<mdke> good night all
<sm> night mdke
<Kinnison> Morning
<jsgotangco> morning
<jsgotangco> does anyone know in our current svn if we have an absolute beginners guide
<solomarv> hey, guys, is there any work being done on gnome help to bring it up to date with hoary? like removing the note about "applications:///"? it does not work in hoary, but is still mentioned in gnome help
<hypatia> I haven't heard of any efforts to make the GNOME documentation match Ubuntu.
<hypatia> Which isn't to say that it's a bad idea.
<hypatia> On the contrary, sounds like a good idea to me.
<hypatia> Probably you would need to submit patches to whoever is maintaining that package for main.
<solomarv> hypatia, thanks
* jeffsch is back (gone 34:07:06)
<jsgotangco> jeffsch, hey
<jeffsch> howdy
<jsgotangco> in a BOF
* jeffsch is away: bedtime
<froud-work> Burgundavia: spoke to Thomas at TSF
<froud-work> Burgundavia: he is leaving TSF and at present they will not be bringing volunteers
<Burgundavia> ah
<Burgundavia> thanks
<froud-work> no problem
<froud-work> Burgundavia: did you manage to add that install stuff to the installation guide?
<froud-work> can you patch and I will apply it for you?
<Burgundavia> still about half done
<Burgundavia> been working on my talk recently
<froud-work> OK, no worries
<jsgotangco> Burgyyy
<Burgundavia> salut
<Burgundavia> how is UDU?
<jsgotangco> bloody shitty wifi
<jsgotangco> Burgundavia, UDU is great but the food service kinda sucks
<Burgundavia> Mataro was bloody awful
<Burgundavia> the food that is
<Burgundavia> otherwise it was great
<Burgundavia> sabdfl called them "bags of death"
<jsgotangco> d00d mataro was like 2 weeks
<Burgundavia> indeed
<Burgundavia> one more week of bad food
<Burgundavia> it was great when they tried to serve the kosher guy ham
<jsgotangco> noooo they assigned me a BOF
<Burgundavia> which one?
<jsgotangco> heck what else doc stuff
<jsgotangco> system documentation
<jsgotangco> duh
<Burgundavia> jsgotangco, when you go to the Ubuntu at conferences page, please mention my brochure, and keeping any of this stuff within the docteam repos
<jsgotangco> what brochure?
<Burgundavia> I am working on a brochure
<Burgundavia> one page
<jsgotangco> we talked about that with mako and jdub
<jsgotangco> ok wilco
<jsgotangco> yeah we need flyers
<Burgundavia> I was going to have it done by this weekend
<jsgotangco> ok great i'll put it in the wiki then
<Burgundavia> but I am dropping it as we don't have a table at the conference for this
<jsgotangco> hmm we have a wiki page for that already
<Burgundavia> this already happened? http://udu.wiki.ubuntu.com/AbsoluteBeginnerCommunity
<jsgotangco> http://udu.wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuAtConferences
<jsgotangco> yeah
<jsgotangco> i was there as well
<Burgundavia> can we get some feedback from you regarding what happened?
* Burgundavia is very frustrated that he is not there
<jsgotangco> what happened? its in the wiki its already in draft
<jsgotangco> awww Burgy we also have brown ubuntu shirts to
<Burgundavia> gahhh
<Burgundavia> don't frustrate me further
<jsgotangco> we had this global BOF about WhatWindowsUsersWant
<jsgotangco> this guy named Tim was aussie and he attended
<jsgotangco> sabdfl made it to a lightning bof
<Burgundavia> cool
<Burgundavia> what was said?
<jsgotangco> well its mostly in the old wiki and stuff
<jsgotangco> let me get that
<jsgotangco> mdke, should be familiar with it
<jsgotangco> http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/WhatWindowsUsersWant
<jsgotangco> im beginning to miss good stuff on the wiki
<jsgotangco> well its a rarity anyways
<jsgotangco> hypatia dropped by today
<Burgundavia> it is thurs there, no?
<jsgotangco> its only wednesday 10:24pm
<Burgundavia> ah
<jsgotangco> they're still making the sched for tommorow
<Burgundavia> where you here? http://udu.wiki.ubuntu.com/TranslationProcess
<jsgotangco> no :)
<jsgotangco> i meant :(
<Burgundavia> damn
<Burgundavia> you are the only member of the doc team there
<Burgundavia> myself, froud,mdke and jeffsch are not there
<jsgotangco> i know i know but i got to like go to other bofs that affect stuff
<jsgotangco> they even had to resched one bof so that mary can attend because im stuffed already
<jsgotangco> i barely get a break here
<Burgundavia> don't worry, one person can only be in one place at atime
<jsgotangco> i even got a pda bof doh
<jsgotangco> doh and a notebook dialup bof
<jsgotangco> grr i better go upstairs
<jsgotangco> bye bye
<Burgundavia> np
<jiyuu0> hello all
<jiyuu0> now i've started workin on this
<jiyuu0> http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?p=150088
<_froud_> jiyuu0: it would have been nice if you had done this in svn
<_froud_> we could have easily packaged it as a deb
<_froud_> now we must update svn with your work.
<_froud_> this kind of headache is not for me. I am inclined to delete the copy of the guide now in SVN
<_froud_> and leave ubuntu guide to do its own thing
<_froud_> it seems that people working on this guide do not want to coperate with others in the docteam
<_froud_> which is a shame because a new version would have been good and could have gone into Rosetta for translation
<jiyuu0> i need some time / learn to do that
<jiyuu0> as the .html is already there... that's why i continue with it
<_froud_> sorry but this kind of thing pisses me off, especially when we tried to talk to the people on this guide
<_froud_> jiyuu0: we offered support
<_froud_> you never cam eback and asked for it\
<_froud_> So was the XML
<jiyuu0> i just came back like 2 weeks to ubuntuguide
<_froud_> you could have with our support continued from there
<jiyuu0> and rushing like mad to update it
<_froud_> ruch like mad in svn 
<_froud_> ruch
<_froud_> not out there
<_froud_> we put work into porting your work
<_froud_> and made several attempts to speak with you on this
<_froud_> you just went ahead
<_froud_> not cool IMHO
<_froud_> The XML has been there for weeks
<jiyuu0> sorry... my fault
<_froud_> who is now gonna merge the updates there into svn
<jiyuu0> i'm thinkin to do it
<jiyuu0> once i'm done with this version
<_froud_> sorry dude I dont believe you will want to do it all over again
<_froud_> some people were kean to help you on this project
<_froud_> I dunno if you will still have their support
<_froud_> we got crital feedback about the guide in our meeting
<jiyuu0> which version
<_froud_> very valuable input form people doing support on #ubuntu
<jiyuu0> the initial release?
<_froud_> I cant see that any of that inout has gone into the new version
<jiyuu0> regarding?
<_froud_> Burgundavia: explain to the man please
<jiyuu0> i hardly check my ubuntu mail
<jiyuu0> too many spams
<_froud_> my patience is running out
<jiyuu0> and request for support
<_froud_> jiyuu0: get spam protection dude
<_froud_> jiyuu0: if you want o work as an Island tell us and we will leave you alone
<_froud_> I sent you mail, twice
<_froud_> you answered once
<_froud_> and then you disappeared
<Burgundavia> hello
<_froud_> for all we know we are sending mail into e-heaven
<Burgundavia> sorry, give me a sec to read the scrollback
<_froud_> Burgundavia: jiyuu0 has updated ubuntuguide
<_froud_> now we have svn and his version
<Burgundavia> I see that
<_froud_> not coll
<Burgundavia> I also see a licencing issue
<_froud_> coo;
<_froud_> none of the input we got is in there
<jiyuu0> what's the input
<_froud_> and we have two versions
<jiyuu0> let me check my mail
<jiyuu0> what's ur name in email?
<Burgundavia> jiyuu0, I sent you something regarding your information on repos
<_froud_> jiyuu0: we aske dyou to join and speak to us so we can give you the inout
<_froud_> input
<Burgundavia> jiyuu0, I am going to be very very frank right now. If I offend you, I am sorry
<Burgundavia> your ideas are really really great
<jiyuu0> no offend
<Burgundavia> but what you are advocating is really not best practice
<jiyuu0> repos thingi?
<Burgundavia> there are lots of little things that need to be fixed in your guide
<jiyuu0> how do u suggest?
<Burgundavia> unfortunately, your guide is essentially a closed source thing for us
<_froud_> jiyuu0: 1st work with the team not in your own island
<Burgundavia> we cannot fix the problems in them
<Burgundavia> now, currently our systems are not the best for the casual person, but you are not the casual person
<Burgundavia> you also have mindshare, which I consider a bad thing, as I don't think your guide is actually something I can recommend to anyone
<Burgundavia> I don't want to work against you, but sometimes I find myself doing that on #ubuntu, as I really think that people need to get good advice, and sometimes your guide doesn't give it
<Burgundavia> now, that being said, it is an amazing start
<froud> Burgundavia: there were several cases where uses got into troubles using the guide, can you remember them
<Burgundavia> the repos one
<jiyuu0> apt-get install mplayer-386 right?
<jiyuu0> what else?
<jiyuu0> i get this often back then
<Burgundavia> I haven't really dug really deeply into the errors of the guide
<froud> jiyuu0: do you want to work with the team and open source it, or do you want to keep it closed?
<Burgundavia> also, gpl is not compatitible with gfdl and cc-by-sa, which we use
<Burgundavia> and your warty guide is also licenced under
<Burgundavia> thus you have, accidentally created an incompatitible fork
<jiyuu0> the license was suggested back then by mako
<Burgundavia> mako would have suggested one of our licences
<froud> yes, but things change and that is whty we ask you to communicate with us
<jiyuu0> Burgundavia, which license it is?
<Burgundavia> yours is currently licenced gpl
<jiyuu0> so what u suggest to change?
<Burgundavia> our docs are dual gfdl and cc-by-sa 2.0
<Burgundavia> your old warty doc is also licenced under this
<froud> http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/DocteamLicense
<Burgundavia> I seem to remember that Plovs spoke with you regarding it
<froud> sanction as official by mako
<Burgundavia> we had a discussion about licencing with mako in Mataro, and it also hit the lists
<jiyuu0> i can change the license.... not a big issue
<Burgundavia> ok
<froud> who will port it to svn db xml?
<jiyuu0> that one i can
<jiyuu0> but i need some time finish some work with ubuntuguide first
<froud> are you now setup for it
<jiyuu0> and now worrkin on the add on CD
<Burgundavia> however, no matter how good we make your docs we still have the split
<froud> I think finsih the book in svn
<froud> that way people can help
<Burgundavia> thus my ideal plan would be to merge our eventual web portal into your ubuntuguide.org
<froud> more people makes it easier for you
<jiyuu0> then i have to abandon ubuntuguide right?
<jiyuu0> where got time for both
<froud> jiyuu0: not abandone
<froud> just open it so others can help you
<Burgundavia> jiyuu0, no, you don't have to abandon ubuntuguide
<Burgundavia> far from it
<froud> it will make life easier for you
<Burgundavia> rather we would fold your url and project into ours
<Burgundavia> as then you harness the power of OSS
<froud> also we can make deb packages of the book
<froud> and get it translated in rosetta
<froud> this will help you with your live cd
<froud> jiyuu0: are you setup to work with svn
<jiyuu0> i am agreeable wif this
<jiyuu0> but maybe gimme some extra time
<jiyuu0> to finish what's outstanding
<Burgundavia> ok
<froud> how much time
<jiyuu0> then we'll work on the portal
<jiyuu0> and the svn thingi
<Burgundavia> our web portal isn't up yet
<Burgundavia> we can finalize what is going to happen when it is up
<jiyuu0> ubuntuguide.org planned content is 80% there already
<jiyuu0> left email server
<jiyuu0> and now working on ubuntuguide.org CD
<froud> jiyuu0: do you have a delta of the change you have made
<jiyuu0> which should finish in few days times
<jiyuu0> not really.... 
<froud> can you diff the changes so that we can see what needs updating in svn
<Burgundavia> hmm
<froud> that will cut the work
<jiyuu0> i move the topic up and down sometimes
<Burgundavia> we can probably do one from the raw html
<jiyuu0> still organizing it
<froud> Burgundavia: I dont have a backup of it
<froud> do you
<jiyuu0> i think... later i'll learn the svn xml thingi... and i'll port it over
<froud> jiyuu0: its many hours of work
<Burgundavia> the warty html one is still up
<froud> ittook plovs over three weeks
<jiyuu0> i can take that as reference
<froud> Burgundavia:  will you diff it
<Burgundavia> sure
<jiyuu0> if my work is easy... i can work on it full time
<Burgundavia> ok
<froud> Burgundavia: I am not sure jiyuu0 fully understands the pwoer of what we are saying here
<Burgundavia> ok
<Burgundavia> for going forward
<jiyuu0> convert it to xml
<jiyuu0> the put in svn
<froud> I would preffer to diff and add the stuff to svn asap
<Burgundavia> short term: diff the new guide and update svn
<jiyuu0> and everyone can update right?
<Burgundavia> 2: fix the ubuntuguide.org
<jiyuu0> would that make ubuntuguide.org into official?
<froud> yes
<froud> that was our intent
<froud> we liked your work
<Burgundavia> when the portal is up, we need to discuss a permanent url
<froud> all of us
<jiyuu0> then i need to get diff hosting then
<jiyuu0> cause the current one is already bursting my bandwidth
<froud> why
<Burgundavia> we can make ubuntuguide.org a redir to a new url on the Ubuntu servers
<froud> it will be at Canonical
<Burgundavia> I happen to like help.ubuntu.com myself
<froud> yep
<Burgundavia> froud, can we hack lenya so we have simple urls: help.ubuntu.com/Sudo ?
<froud> yes
<Burgundavia> nice
<Burgundavia> that is key
<froud> jiyuu0: is it a train smash if we get you working in svn and doc book now
<Burgundavia> jiyuu0, you have provided docs when we haven't been able to get them out to people easily. That is a service that is beyond helpful
<froud> jiyuu0: I mean take current status
<froud> Burgundavia: makes diff
<Burgundavia> ok
<froud> we add changes to svn 
<froud> we continue to finish it in svn
<froud> then we transform to html and host at Canonical
<jiyuu0> why not let me wrap things up here
<froud> how much time
<jiyuu0> and then i'll train smash on it
<froud> 1 week 2 week
<froud> a month
<jiyuu0> on the 8th next month was my target date to finish it
<jiyuu0> 1 month from day release
<froud> 11 days
<froud> ok
<jiyuu0> actually i just change the version from 0.x to 1.x today... which means... i'm nearly done wif it
<jiyuu0> then i'll start workin on the xml thingi
<froud> jiyuu0: dont take down the old version
<froud> jiyuu0: we first will diff it
<froud> so we can see just your changes
<jiyuu0> 4.10???
<froud> yes
<froud> leave it there
<jiyuu0> 4.10 not much changes
<jiyuu0> just took out bacport
<jiyuu0> and a spelling mistake
<jiyuu0> window which is suppose to be windows
<Burgundavia> ick
<froud> argh
<Burgundavia> a raw diff is ick because so much stuff has moved around
<jiyuu0> but 5.04... lot's of changes
<jiyuu0> i'll work on 5.04 for the xml 
<froud> jiyuu0: we are trying to find a short path to porting your work into the current version in svn
<froud> Burgundavia: can we make head or tails ofthe diff
<Burgundavia> froud, not really
<froud> ouch
<Burgundavia> as the stuff has moved
<froud> so we have to manually sift the two docs
<Burgundavia> what comes out is a not a straight replacement for what comes in
<Burgundavia> shouldn't actually be that bad
<Burgundavia> I need to review the hoary guide anyway, so I can do both at the same time
<froud> if we can see justthe changes
<froud> itwill make life much easier
<froud> Is it HTML 1.0 or XHTML3
<froud> opps
<froud> XHTML
<froud> <!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD XHTML 1.0 Strict//EN" "http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml1/DTD/xhtml1-strict.dtd">
<froud> Ok it is strict
<froud> that is a good thing
<jiyuu0> 5.04 not strict because of the paypal button
<jiyuu0> else should be strict
<froud> Burgundavia: I may be able to convert to db
<froud> but it will not be in qanda format
<froud> we would need to hack it 
<froud> which route do you think is easier
<froud> jiyuu0: paypal will not be an option once it is in svn
<froud> jiyuu0: are you ok with this
<froud> perhaps you are doing this to make some cash
<jjesse> comming late to the discussion but why are we going to use this after i have had to help people out with problems due to the guide
<jiyuu0> not really
<froud> jjesse: we use it and improve it
<jiyuu0> i put the paypal... just to see who will donate
<jiyuu0> for fun
<froud> jiyuu0: ok just so long as we are clear
<froud> jjesse: we know there are problems
<jiyuu0> jjesse, what's the prob
<froud> jjesse: but we cant fix them as it stands now
<jiyuu0> when u all say there's prob... it's the repo thingi that broke with mplayer right?
<jiyuu0> what do u all suggest?
<froud> jjesse: when in svn we can address them with jiyuu0 
<froud> jjesse: do you still have a list of the problems
<jjesse> ok good
<jjesse> i am checking, phone just rang
<froud> it should be in a log somewhere
<froud> I need to check back to the metting before last
<jjesse> there were some that was discussed on the mailing list
<jiyuu0> i need to know the prob... cause so far the prob i heard is mplayer
<jiyuu0> and it has been fixed in the guide
<froud> yeah it is kinda spread
<froud> jjesse: one of  the problems was a usability issue to do with letting newbie users to do sensitive stuff
<froud> jjesse: right?
<jjesse> yes
<jiyuu0> e.g?
<froud> this impacted on the whole doc
<jjesse> i'm trying to dig through my notes, it wasn't on #ubuntu it was a friend doing it in person
<jjesse> we ended up reinstalling ubuntu from the cd and set it up as i setup my local install of ubuntu
<jiyuu0> issit the sound prob?
<froud> jiyuu0: its not one particular part orsection
<jiyuu0> that's weird... cause i've done and tested it many many times
<froud> it was just that users got information that was technical
<jiyuu0> correct + updated many many times too
<jiyuu0> typos?
<froud> well to technical for a newbie
<froud> and many newbies ran into problems
<froud> because they did not understand the big picture
<jjesse> also he added a repository that messsed things up, but i don't remember if it was from the guide or not
<froud> they did one thing as you said
<jiyuu0> i've tried my best to write it to the easiet method possible
<froud> but they did not know to do another if they did so
<froud> that kind of stuff
<jiyuu0> but i think now... it's pretty stable
<jiyuu0> i've updated a lot
<froud> jiyuu0: its a usability issue, not a correctness issue
<jiyuu0> why not u guys check it out
<jiyuu0> ic
<froud> jiyuu0: what will that help
<froud> we cant change it :-)
<froud> In svn the doc becomes a living object, as support has problems we can immediately fix and republish
<froud> we can manage bug list against it
<jiyuu0> and everyone can change that?
<froud> as people have time they can ackle the problems
<froud> can change what
<froud> the guide, how
<froud> or the one in svn
<froud> insvn all can change it
<jjesse> docbook really isn't that hard to learn, i'm brand new to it and slowly learning it
<froud> for example a support person would post a problem to the list and we woul djust fix it
<froud> jjesse: jiyuu0 knows html there will not be a problem
<froud> Burgundavia: shorter to diff and make sense, or just to transform to xml
<froud> ?
<Burgundavia> easier to parse manually and edit the xml from there
<Burgundavia> kills 2 birds with one stone
<froud> OK
<froud> agree
<Burgundavia> update our version and give feedback to jiyuu0 
<froud> no no, get jiyuu0 inline to svn updates
<froud> he can see the changes then
<froud> as they happen
<Burgundavia> ok
<froud> jiyuu0: can you install subversion please
<froud> sudo apt-get install subversion
<jiyuu0> i am rushing to finish up the add-on CD
<froud> we want you to at least have a wc
<jiyuu0> can i do that once i'm done with the CD
<jiyuu0> ok
<froud> so you can see what we are doing
<jjesse> is the guide going to be on the cd?
<froud> jjesse: why not
<froud> we wante dit in hoary
<jjesse> if the guide is so incorrect then why would we want to give it out to everyone?
<froud> jjesse: we have to work on it for breezy :-)
<jiyuu0> jjesse, i'm makin a Unofficial UbuntuGuide 5.04 Add-On CD Guide
<jjesse> ok
<jiyuu0> it will contain all the cache
<jjesse> got a little lost in the converstion
<jiyuu0> and downloads
<froud> jiyuu0: if you can do a checkout now, then we can start work on updating our copy in svn
<froud> and you can see the changes
<jiyuu0> trying
<froud> all you need to do to see the changes is subscribe to our commit list
<froud> I have some time to help you get a checkout
<froud> you want to do it now it takes a few minutes
<jiyuu0> installing
<froud> we will also need you to send your pgp key to elmo sometime
<froud> so you can get a commit account
<jiyuu0> that i've not tried b4
<froud> what pgp
<froud> or commit
<jiyuu0> both... i've not tried b4
<froud> ok dont worry
<jiyuu0> ok... subversion installed
<froud> lets take baby steps
<froud> ok decide where you want your working copy
<froud> what is the path?
<jiyuu0> $HOME
<froud> ok
<froud> now do the following commands
<froud> svn checkout https://docteam.ubuntu.com/repos/trunk ubuntu-docs
<froud> it will create a folder in ~ called ubuntu-docs
<froud> and you will see it adding a revision from HEAD to this folder
<froud> this is your working copy
<froud> dont worry you can break it all you like and you wont damage the repository
<jiyuu0> Error validating server certificate for 'https://docteam.ubuntu.com:443':
<jiyuu0>  - The certificate is not issued by a trusted authority. Use the
<jiyuu0>    fingerprint to validate the certificate manually!
<jiyuu0> Certificate information:
<jiyuu0>  - Hostname: docteam.ubuntu.com
<jiyuu0>  - Valid: from Feb  1 16:20:49 2005 GMT until Oct 28 16:20:49 2007 GMT
<jiyuu0>  - Issuer: Canonical Ltd, Douglas, IM
<jiyuu0>  - Fingerprint: c2:91:b6:41:c7:88:1a:82:bf:79:30:36:0b:7f:7f:81:c3:e8:04:8d
<jiyuu0> (R)eject, accept (t)emporarily or accept (p)ermanently?
<froud> p
<Burgundavia> jiyuu0, I am going to have a string of emails regarding things in the docs over the next few days
<jiyuu0> ok
<Burgundavia> that is because Canonical needs to get a proper cert to sign stuff
<froud> :-)
<froud> just do p
<jiyuu0> did it
<jiyuu0> waiting
<froud> jiyuu0: you are on the list right
<froud> while you wait, please sibscribe to the commit list http://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-doc-commits
<froud> This list send you messages showing what has changed
<jiyuu0> ok
* jiyuu0 checkin
<jiyuu0> the "p" is still not moving
<jiyuu0> my line is bad
<jiyuu0> maybe
<froud> did you press enter :-)
<jiyuu0> this page is also slow
<jiyuu0> http://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-doc-commits
<jiyuu0> hehe... of course i did
<jiyuu0> :P
<froud> Ok the first checkout is big
<froud> after that it is better
<jiyuu0> ok
<froud> because you only update the differences
<froud> what line spead are you on?
<froud> speed
<jiyuu0> i'm not sure... LAN
<froud> Hmm at Uni
<froud> or work
<jiyuu0> at home
<jiyuu0> it's my housemate's account
<froud> DSL
<jiyuu0> yub
<froud> or ppp
<froud> DSL should be ok
<jiyuu0> subscribed
<jiyuu0> svn: PROPFIND request failed on '/repos/trunk'
<jiyuu0> svn: PROPFIND of '/repos/trunk': could not connect to server (https://docteam.ubuntu.com)
<jiyuu0> seems like have to try again
<froud> timed out
<froud> ping the server
<froud> do you get a response
<jiyuu0> seems not
<jiyuu0> line seems bad today
<jiyuu0> browsing also slow
<jiyuu0> it's alive
<froud> ok do svn checkout again
<froud> any response?
<jiyuu0> it's downloading
<froud> OK
<froud> let it finish and I will take you through the basics you will need
<froud> jiyuu0: the principle is simple. We all have a working copy, and hack that.
<jiyuu0> then how do i update it?
<froud> When we finish hacking we commit the changes back to the repository
<froud> hold
<froud> everyone sees the patch by way of the commit list
<froud> then all you do is form your ~
<froud> cd ubuntu-doc
<froud> svn up
<froud> that will bring all updates to your working copy
<froud> now at first you dont have a commit account
<froud> so you will have to create patches
<froud> its easy
<froud> you hack a file and save it
<froud> then you do svn diff foofile.xml > foofile.xml.diff
<froud> less foofile.xml.diff to see only the changes you have made
<froud> send the file to the regular users mailing list
<froud> one of the commit account holders will apply it to their own working copy
<froud> and commit it to the repos
<froud> when you have a commit account you will not need to make a diff
<froud> no send itto the list
<froud> you will just do svn commit
<froud> and the diff will be written to the server
<froud> each time you commit we will see it
<froud> and we can do svn up
<froud> and so the cycle goes on
<froud> any questions?
* jiyuu0 copy and paste the hold advice... going to try it out later
* jiyuu0 still downloading........
<jiyuu0> A  ubuntu-docs/gnome/images/C/tetravex.png
<jiyuu0> ...
<froud> jiyuu0: here is a step-by-step
<froud> http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/DocteamStepByStepRepository
<froud> jiyuu0: yeah first checout is big
<froud> jiyuu0: are you a gnome user or kde?
<jiyuu0> currently using gnome
<froud> ok
<jiyuu0> haven really try kubuntu yet
<jiyuu0> using mepis for a while too
<froud> so I would suggest for starters that you try looking at some of the xml files using gedit
<jiyuu0> ok
<froud> you will also need to install a few tools
<jiyuu0> i'll pop questions if i bump into probs
<froud> sudo apt-get install docbook
<froud> sudo apt-get install docbook-xsl
<froud> sudo apt-get install xsltproc
<froud> sudo apt-get install xmllint (although that may be installed when you insall xsltproc)
<froud> and and for i18n (optional)
<froud> sudo apt-get install poxml (from kdesdk)
<froud> that is it
<froud> dont worry if you dont know what to do with the xml elements
<froud> and for now ifyou dont get valid and well-formed docs
<froud> we will fix these problems and you will soon get the hang of it
<jiyuu0> thanks :)
<jiyuu0> it's still downloading... 
<jiyuu0> i have to crash... it's 2:35am already
<jiyuu0> else tomorrow i'll be late
<froud> Ok let it run
<froud> when you wake look in generic/faqguide/C
<froud> ther eyou will find the ubuntuguide
<jiyuu0> ok
<jiyuu0> nite :)
<froud> nite
<froud> join us tomorrow for the next installment :-)
<jjesse> if i made a couple of minor changes to the kquickguide, i need to diff it and send it to the list right?
<Burgundavia> yep
<froud> yes please:_)
<jjesse> newbie question how do i make a diff?
<froud> jjesse: when are you gonna send your pgp key to elmo
<jjesse> froud as soon as i get one
* jeffsch is back (gone 11:29:53)
<froud> jjesse: make the kquickguide dir your pwd
<froud> svn diff kquickguide.xml > kquickguide.xml.diff
<jjesse> how do i get one?
<froud> attach the diff to a message and post to the user list
<jjesse> pardon the ignorance where do i go to create my pgp key?
<froud> Burgundavia: help jjesse create a pgp key please I have a deadline and am behind
<froud> :-)
<jjesse> grin sorry to be a pain
<Burgundavia> ok
<froud> no not a pain
<Burgundavia> ugh
<Burgundavia> have to do this myself
* Burgundavia is ignoring his presentation he has to do by Sat.
<froud> He can send it to enrico who will forward it to elmo
<froud> thanks
<Burgundavia> ok
<Burgundavia> jjesse, first start by installing gpg
<jjesse> hmmm it is saying that gpg is not avaiable :(
<Burgundavia> huh
<jjesse> hmmm wait never mind i  messed up
<jjesse> ok installed
<Burgundavia> bah
<Burgundavia> is gnupg
<Burgundavia> ok
<Burgundavia> now open a terminal and key 'gpg --gen-key'
<jjesse> ok what type?
<Burgundavia> default
<jjesse> DSA and ELGamal, DSA sign only or RSA sign only
<jjesse> keysize?
<Burgundavia> accept the default
<jjesse> same for expire?
<Burgundavia> accept the defaults
<Burgundavia> they are good
<jjesse> now i need a passphrase
<jjesse> how long should it be ?
<Burgundavia> something fairly long
<Burgundavia> mine is a sentence with no spaces
<Burgundavia> but also something you can remember
<jjesse> ok done
<froud> jjesse: applied, thanks
<jjesse> your welcome froud
<Burgundavia> two more things
<Burgundavia> send the key to a keyserver
<jjesse> ok is there a keyserver to use or?
<Burgundavia> pretty much all the big ones share amongst themselves
<Burgundavia> but the biggest is pgp.net
<jjesse> ok
<Burgundavia> so first is 'gpg --send-keys --keyserver wwwkeys.pgp.net your@email.address'
<Burgundavia> bah
<Burgundavia> just a sec
<jjesse> holding
<Burgundavia> ok
<Burgundavia> www.keyserver.net
<Burgundavia> not that pgp site
<Burgundavia> but as a said, it will go around between the keyservers
<jjesse> so do a gpg  --send-keys --kyserver www.keyserv.net your@email.address
<Burgundavia> yeppers
<Burgundavia> ok, now number 2
<Burgundavia> I am very glad I generated a revocation cert when I generated my key
<Burgundavia> as I lost my key with my reinstall
* Burgundavia grumbles
<jjesse> that stinks
<Burgundavia> that is why we are doing this together
<jjesse> grin how long does it take to uploade the key?
<Burgundavia> should happen right away
<Burgundavia> and you should get this message back: gpg: success sending to `www.keyserver.net' (status=200)
<jjesse> it timed out and had to retry now i have success
<Burgundavia> o
<Burgundavia> k
<Burgundavia> now we generate you revoke crt
<Burgundavia> print this one out
<Burgundavia> and keep it safe
<froud> :-)
<froud> lol
<jjesse> grin i will 
<jeffsch> don't forget to backup your private key...
* Burgundavia smacks jeffsch with a trout and then grumbles
* froud nudges Burgundavia 
<froud> practice what you preach comes to mind :-)
<Burgundavia> Kinnison keeps his on his person
<jeffsch> mmmmm....sushi
* jeffsch fears that the powers that be have penetrated his almuinum-foil ensconsed villa and stolen his keys
* claude is happy, he didn't remember his passphrase...
<jeffsch> why do we need pgp for our svn anyway?
* Burgundavia observes that his keyboard is very dirty
<Burgundavia> it is about trust
<Burgundavia> that reminds me, froud?
<Burgundavia> what key are we going to use with lenya?
<jeffsch> why not let anyone write the same way we let anyone write to wiki?
<froud> jeffsch: https
<froud> no need
<froud> each user has an account
<froud> and the lenya wc has a general key for lenya
<Burgundavia> ok
<Burgundavia> that is what I thought
<froud> but we will need ssh access
<froud> :-) to svn commit from lenya to the main repos
<jeffsch> even if youwant to restircet write access, why be so paranoid? why not send the password in the open. How many eveil yabbos are interesete din what we are doing?
<froud> lenya is a staging area editing an svn wc
<jeffsch> i think I meant "restrict" instead of "restirect"
<froud> chaps I am off to bed. deadline met time for sleep
<froud> chow
<Burgundavia> sorry jjesse I got lost in what I was doing
<Burgundavia> need to send that key to elmo
<jjesse> no problem i'm at work so i just got busy w/ problems
<jjesse> how do i send the key?
<jjesse> just through email and sign it?
<Burgundavia> hm
<Burgundavia> I don't really remember this part
<Burgundavia> when you do something once, it often doesn't stick
<Burgundavia> email enrico and ask him
<jjesse> will od
<jjesse> do
<Burgundavia> ahhh
<Burgundavia> OO Impress sucks donkey balls
<Burgundavia> not to mention, it doesn't support SVG
<jeffsch> Burgundavia: that's odd.... it reads wmf files*.svg
<Burgundavia> I can't import as a graphic
<Burgundavia> but Impress is not impressing me
<Burgundavia> to say the least
<Burgundavia> but I hate OO.o anyway
<Burgundavia> too much crap and UI clutter
<Burgundavia> too much like MS Office
<jeffsch> hmm. you can produce svg files in OO drawings, but not read them into OO presentations
<Burgundavia> indeed
<jeffsch> yes, a bithc to use, same as MS office
<Burgundavia> I thought of doing my whole presentation in Inkscape, then displaying with gthumb
<jeffsch> but, MS office: no chance of improving that
<jeffsch> how long is presentation?
<Burgundavia> ~1 hr
<Burgundavia> so I think I am going to rag on the OO.o Impress during my talk
<jeffsch> yoiks!
<Burgundavia> ok
<Burgundavia> there is no easy way to edit the background
<Burgundavia> no button that say "edit background"
<jeffsch> just insert graphic, then send to back
<Burgundavia> that doesn't place an image on every tile
<Burgundavia> I had a thought while I walked to the store about an ideal presentation client
<Burgundavia> how to implement it, etc.
<Burgundavia> hmm
<Burgundavia> I want an image on every slide but the first
<jeffsch> can you not just create a slide with the background you want and then duplicate it x number of times?
<jeffsch> also, there must be a way of creating a template slide...
<Burgundavia> there is
<Burgundavia> but I don't want to apply it to the first slid
<jeffsch> no problem. in bottom left corner, is the "master view" icon
<jeffsch> click on it. add graphic.
<Burgundavia> I did that
<Burgundavia> now I don't want it to apply to the title screen
<jeffsch> then, on first page of presentation, override graphic with blank screen
<jeffsch> or text box, or whatever
<Burgundavia> ok
<Burgundavia> still too much work to do that
<jeffsch> bah. typical lazy canadian.
<Burgundavia> hey!
<jeffsch> speaking of lazy canadians...
* Burgundavia wonders what jeffsch is avoiding doing
<jeffsch> I have to go and lay about amy dentist's chair for a couple hours :(
<Burgundavia> hmm
* jeffsch avoiding dentist!
<Burgundavia> need to do that sometime sson
<jeffsch> i'm getting a root canal. see you later.
* jeffsch is away: I'll be back
#ubuntu-doc 2006-05-01
<mdke> alright, done
<mdke> LaserJock, do you need anything else?
<LaserJock> well not at the moment, but lifeless is holding my hand through some thought experiments
<mdke> great
<LaserJock> I think we will want to move a directory into /srv/doc.ubuntu.com/www/ perhaps
<mdke> doesn't it do ssh?
<LaserJock> yes, but I was wanting it to be publically available for download, but maybe we just want to have the tarball checkout for that
<mdke> oh yeah, doh
<mdke> let's do that now, shall we?
<LaserJock> mdke: what do you think, should I put the current svn repo on LP?
<mdke> LaserJock, no, I think we should play around on doc.u.c first
<LaserJock> ok
<mdke> you?
<LaserJock> that's fine, although it looks like a nice option
<mdke> all these branches flying around scare me
<LaserJock> but to be honest I don't know if we are ready for bzr yet
<LaserJock> mdke: well, it would only be one branch
<LaserJock> mdke: ok, so if you mv /home/laserjock/public_html/ubuntu-doc-bzr into /srv/doc.ubuntu.com/www/bzr/ and chown it to bzrgrp
<mdke> you want it as bzr/ubuntu-doc-bzr?
<LaserJock> hmm, I guess just bzr/ would work
<mdke> ok
<mdke> what owner?
<LaserJock> umm, I guess <you>:bzrgrp
<mdke> ok, i did ubuntu-doc
<LaserJock> is ubuntu-doc a part of hte bzrgrp group?
<LaserJock> or will that matter?
<mdke> no, and no (I think)
<LaserJock> as you can tell, I'm no sys admin
<mdke> me neither
<LaserJock> blind leading the blind?
<LaserJock> ok, let me see if I can checkout and send changes
<mdke> you'll want permission, hang onm
<mdke> ok
<mdke> is 775 the right permissions?
<LaserJock> looks good to me
<mdke> LaserJock, how's it going?
<mdke> -> bed
<LaserJock> mdke: just trying to resolve ssh key issues :(
<rob> hmm, how did you guys get the docteam coffee thing on the forums?
<robotgeek> docteam cofee?
<LaserJock> yeah, what?
<rob> you know how the forum has a coffee thing on the side (based on how many posts you do I think)
<rob> a few people here have that, how does one acquire that?
<LaserJock> rob: I think you have to make posts :-)
<rob> heh, I just signed up an account on there!
<rob> http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=123836
<rob> look at the right hand side bits of each post
<LaserJock> oh yeah, the ubuntu doc team bit
<LaserJock> I don't have that :'(
<klepas> moin
<klepas> heard you folks are after someone to do a bunch of covers
<robotgeek> klepas: yes, for the desktop guides which are going be be available to be purchased in print
<klepas> mhh
<klepas> cool
<robotgeek> also server and packageing guides
<rob> deadline?
<klepas> ja
<rob> nothing has been set yet
<klepas> well when do you guys need this by
<klepas> latest
<rob> we want to make all the translations available too, so it will take a while for that to get done
<klepas> because i have my hands full in the immediate future, about a week
<robotgeek> Madpilot here did a few things, maybe better to talk with him too?
<klepas> SURE
<klepas> ack, caps
<rob> robotgeek, I gave him a couple of links, but yes madpilot was our guy who did that :)
<rob> klepas, there are also some templates on the lulu.com website (which isn't working for me otherwise I'd get you the links)
<rob> for size etc
<rob> we are looking at crown quarto for the size
<rob> klepas, https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-art/2006-April/001180.html
<rob> email from matt
<klepas> checking it out now
<klepas> could i get some ratios/height-width measurements?
<klepas> for the cover
<LaserJock> 7.44" x 9.68" is crown quarto
<LaserJock> or 18.9cm x 24.6cm if you are so inclined :-)
<klepas> thanks
<klepas> i've got an idea for this
<klepas> though it would follow some of the ideas that the GDM theme uses
<klepas> and is generally appreciated higher up for official things
<KingBahamut> evening all
<LaserJock_away> mdke: got bzr to work, it's sorta slow, but it works
<Madpilot> Burgundavia_, ping
<Burgundavia_> Madpilot: pong
<Madpilot> how's things in OK?
<Madpilot> which centre of culture are you in tonight?
<Burgundavia_> Guthrie, just north of OK city
<Burgundavia_> was in Woodward today
<Madpilot> how are the demos going?
<Madpilot> http://www.warbard.ca/temp/Kubuntu_Lulu_cover_draft_CQsize.png <-- Kubuntu DG cover in white/pale blue, instead of dark blue/light blue
<Madpilot> evening robitaille 
<robitaille> Hi Madpilot 
<robitaille> I'm reading the blog of the latest Canonical employee:  http://sfllaw.livejournal.com/
<Madpilot> "Shaving? Do I have to shave if I work from home?" - hehe
<crimsun> ah yes, he's in Montreal
<robitaille> it will be nice to finally have a full-time person doing QA stuff
<Madpilot> fewer complaints from the bughunters when you ping one of your older bugs to see if a known fix has been committed yet - maybe... :P
<Madpilot> http://observer.guardian.co.uk/business/story/0,,1759298,00.html
<LaserJock_away> Madpilot: there was someone from -artwork here earlier
<LaserJock_away> Madpilot: klepas was the nick. They were going to do some covers
* LaserJock_away goes away again
<Madpilot> interesting - thanks, LaserJock_away 
<Madpilot> klepas, ping?
<Burgundavia_> Madpilot: that tank link is insane
<Madpilot> cool, isn't it?
<Madpilot> hmm, there's no #ubuntu-art channel...
<Burgundavia_> artwork
<Burgundavia_> we should probably get -art to redirect to -artwork
<Burgundavia_> anyway, I need to sleep, is 1am here
<Madpilot> you two hours ahead of us? Thought it was just 1hr?
<klepas> Madpilot: pong
<klepas> Madpilot: i've got to run, going home from the office.
<klepas> i shall be on later this evening/today
<klepas> give it a few hours
<klepas> :)
<mdke> Madpilot, very nice
<mdke> Madpilot, I think we can remove the document-specific text from the covers
<mdke> lulu can get it from the book title, that way you don't have to make a new cover for every book/translation
<mdke> but we'd need to check that it will put it in the right place
<mdke> afk
<Madpilot> mdke, was AFK - shutting down now - I'll change the covers tomorrow, if Lulu can do the titles at that end
<Madpilot> later, all
<mdke> evening all
<jsgotangco> hi
<jsgotangco> its already dawn here heh
<mdke> doing an all nighter?
<jsgotangco> nahh its only 12:30am just closing some xorg bugs
<LaserJock> hi mdke 
<mdke> hi LaserJock 
<jjesse> afternoon all :)
<LaserJock> I got my stupid ssh key issue figured out
<mdke> ssh keys are the bomb
<LaserJock> so I was able to do a bzr checkout, added a file, and did a commit
<LaserJock> and it worked like svn
<mdke> it seems that Lulu don't support multiple licenses... I'm trying to convince them to add it
<LaserJock> it takes a loong time to do the checkout, but once you do you have the entire repo history locally, and it doesn't seem to take up much space
<mdke> that sounds like svn
<LaserJock> well, with svn you have to connect to the server to get the history
<mdke> ah, the entire repo history eh? Is that useful?
<LaserJock> yeah, it means you can work locally for basically everythin
<LaserJock> it means you only connect to the server when you are commiting, more or less
<jsgotangco> LaserJock: yeah the first checkout is really sllloooowwwwww
<mdke> isn't that the case with svn too?
<mdke> I onyl connect to the server when committing in svn, too
<LaserJock> no, if you want to look at a particular revision perhaps
<LaserJock> you have to talk to the server with svn
<LaserJock> if you don't have it cached
<mdke> yes, but I don't think I've ever wanted to do that
<LaserJock> right
<mdke> except for looking at commit mail, I guess
<LaserJock> an advantage for non-doc members (ie. branch not checkout) is they can commit locally
<LaserJock> so they can have revision control while they are working
<LaserJock> and then send a diff or push their branch when they are done
<mdke> right
<LaserJock> at this point my issues with bzr are the speed
<jeffsch> my understanding is that you work locally, making all the commits you want, then
<LaserJock> jeffsch: unless you do a bzr checkout (new in 0.8)
<jeffsch> when you are ready, you publish it all on a webserver somewhere
<jeffsch> all the commits are to your local copy though, right?
<LaserJock> no
<LaserJock> not with checkout
<jeffsch> ok, but can you still work locally and still keep version control?
<jjesse> is bzr checkout just like svn checkout?  if so why the need to swtich?
<mdke> but it's coooooool
<LaserJock> my thought was to perhaps have docteam members use bzr checkout (which would be more or less like svn co)
<jjesse> mdke: cooool doesn't mean we have to change :)
<LaserJock> but non-docteam members would use the "traditional" bzr approach and push their changes to a server
<mdke> no, but cooooooool does
<LaserJock> that then the docteam members can merge and commit
<mdke> what's wrong with the speed?
<LaserJock> honestly, my current opinion is that we should test and watch bzr for edgy but not move (if ever) until edgy+1
<mdke> we can keep playing
<jeffsch> if i do a bzr checkout, can i work on say, the desktopguide while not connected to the net and still have revision control on the commits that
<LaserJock> mdke: well bzr branch seems slow currently (I timed it 4 times slower than svn co)
<LaserJock> jeffsch: no, you would want bzr branch for that
<jeffsch> i make to my local copy?
<trappist> my opinion is that svn is how god intended us to work, and that if we move to bzr I'll grudgingly live with it
<LaserJock> lol
<mdke> haha
* mdke goes out
<LaserJock> well, I'm no bzr diehard, I use it for packaging where I do all my work locally
<jeffsch> ok, so i branch desktopguide, make commits offline, then push them to the bzr server on d.u.c?
<LaserJock> jeffsch: bzr checkout, branch our checkout locally, work on it offline, merge back in and commit when you are online again
<LaserJock> a cool thing, IMO, with bzr is that all you need is the directory, we can distribute the repo as a tarball
<LaserJock> people can download it and untar it and they have the whole repo, history and all
<LaserJock> or you can use rsync
<jeffsch> can we tarball our svn repos with the same results?
<LaserJock> not sure
<LaserJock> you would you do a checkout?
<LaserJock> s/you/how/
<jeffsch> i think svn tracks everything in a .svn folder, one for each directory
<jeffsch> bzr does it similar, but with only on .bzr folder at the top of the hierarchy
<LaserJock> yeah, but I'm not sure you can just untar it and then commit, I could be wrong
<jeffsch> yeah, there might be some machine-specific or other local-specific stuff in the .svn folder
<LaserJock> since bzr isn't tied to a repo you just tell it where you want it to go
<jeffsch> it's not tied to a repo if we use it in a distributed fashion
<LaserJock> right
<jeffsch> if we use it with a central repo on d.u.c. it will be different
<LaserJock> so it seems to me right now, functionally, you get the best of both worlds with bzr
<LaserJock> you can use svn-like checkout or the distributed branch
<jeffsch> so only docteam members will have push rights to d.u.c, others must have us pull their changes from some public space
<LaserJock> my issues right now are speed (maybe it isn't a problem, but it could be) and having to have non-docteam members have a place to publish branches
<jeffsch> bzr can't import diffs from email?
<LaserJock> jeffsch: it can but that sort of defeats the purpose of being able to merge branches
<jsgotangco> LaserJock: the pqmbot takes care of that no?
<LaserJock> jsgotangco: takes care of what?
<jsgotangco> who to allow to merge/push
<LaserJock> jsgotangco: yes, although we have done it for now with just giving doc-team members rw access to the repo
<jsgotangco> ah right
<LaserJock> I'm more concerned about the non-docteam members
<jsgotangco> LaserJock: they could always branch from our sources from svn, after all its public
<LaserJock> I'd like to have people email me "Heah laserjock, if got a cool new section for the packaging guide, my branch is at htttp://xyz.com/coolpatch"
<LaserJock> then I can bzr merge http://xyz.com/coolpatch
<jsgotangco> yeah
<jeffsch> LaserJock: what if you get 10 emails like that, and 4 of the merges conflict?
<jsgotangco> i gotta sleep
<LaserJock> bzr is smart
<jsgotangco> good night
<LaserJock> cya jsgotangco 
<jeffsch> not smart enough to choose my "can't" over someone elses "can not"
<jeffsch> you still have to decide whether or not to keep the appostrophe version
<LaserJock> sure
<jeffsch> that's the kind of conflict I'm talking about
<LaserJock> well, that will occur no matter what we do
<jeffsch> in svn, conflict resolution is distributed
<jeffsch> svn won't let you commit without resolving conflicts
<jeffsch> in bzr, conflict resolution is centralized
<jeffsch> the guy at the top must resolve all conflicts himself
<LaserJock> ok, I gotta go. I'll be back in ~30 min.
<LaserJock> I think we should test some of this out
<jeffsch> definitely
<dsas> is there a test bzr repo i can branch from?
<jeffsch> yeah, there's one on docteam.ubuntu.com, but i don't know where exactly yet
<jeffsch> ask LaserJock when he comes back, or mdke if he
<jeffsch> 's around
<jeffsch> oops
<trappist> so what does bzr do with conflicts it can't resolve?
<dsas> it makes two files iirc, one called BASE, one called HEAD. not sure what they do
<jeffsch> trappist: http://bazaar-vcs.org/IntroductionToBzr#head-3c92313cdbc6d0b648fb742a98ada0d38e043ef7
<trappist> I do think I like svn's behavior better than that
<trappist> to the extent that it's different
<jeffsch> if bzr will allow us to create better docs faster and with fewer errors, then I'm all for it
<jeffsch> otherwise, there's no point in switching
<LaserJock> jeffsch: I agree
<LaserJock> dsas: the current URL to branch from is http://doc.ubuntu.com/bzr/
<dsas> LaserJock: thanks
<LaserJock> jeffsch: my interest was 2 things:
<LaserJock> 1) possible splitting up the current svn trunk into branches (common, ubuntu, kubuntu, generic, etc.) so that people don't have to get the whole thing just to work on one doc
<LaserJock> 2) making it easier for non-docteam members to contribute
<LaserJock> and I'm currently not convinced of both
<trappist> they both sound pretty great - I don't see why svn couldn't handle the first one though
<LaserJock> I don't think that it was  so much a matter of svn couldn't but maybe bzr would handle it better
<LaserJock> I think bzr is still so much in development that I bet by the time we get to Edgy+1 it will be significantly faster and more stable
<LaserJock> jeffsch: do you need the url for pushing changes?
<jeffsch> yeah... http://doc.ubuntu.com/bzr/ is not it?
<LaserJock> jeffsch: you can't push there I don't think
<LaserJock> jeffsch: I think you need sftp to publish
<LaserJock> jeffsch: or am I wrong
<jeffsch> you need sftp to "bzr push sftp://blah.blah.com/whatever"
<jeffsch> but you can also use rsync
<LaserJock> jeffsch: so you will need sftp://<username>@doc.ubuntu.com/srv/doc.ubuntu.com/www/bzr/ I think
<jeffsch> ok, thanks. I will try it later... kinda busy on something else right now
<LaserJock> jeffsch: me too
<mdke> evening
<LaserJock> hi mdke 
<mdke> how's it going?
<LaserJock> pretty good, trying to get some research done today
<mdke> ah, real life eh?
<LaserJock> yeah, but I talked with jeffsch this morning about bzr and I got an upload in too. :-)
* mdke nods
#ubuntu-doc 2006-05-02
<mdke> LaserJock, the book has been shipped
<LaserJock> mdke: beautiful
<mdke> LaserJock, didn't I order it only yesterday? That's fricking fast
<LaserJock> mdke: yes, it is
<mdke> cool
<LaserJock> mdke: playing -devel police again? ;-)
<mdke> tell me I'm wrong
<mdke> those goddam spammers
<LaserJock> it is amazing how fast a converstation can spiral down into a grudge match
<mdke> yeah
<mdke> it is a good time to propose my mailing list guidelines
* mdke goes to have another look at them
<LaserJock> one of the reasons I don't like MLs so much is then tend to be combative and I never really know if what I'm saying is OT or not. They seem to have no rules other than what somebody flames you about.
<mdke> tell me what you think of these: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Listiquette?action=show
<LaserJock> that stupid ReplyTo-List thing always gets me
<LaserJock> I've never used an email client that had it :(
<mdke> you suck!
<mdke> your punishment for using a sucky email client is to manually edit the reply fields
<LaserJock> I've used Gmail, Thunderbird, and pine
<LaserJock> I think they are fairly standard
<mdke> well, reply-to-all is certainly not the right way to do it
<LaserJock> I don't understand why they don't have a ReplyTo-List, it makes perfect sense to me
<mdke> I'm happy to set reply-to fields for mailing lists, but replying to all is horrible
<LaserJock> yeah, I have to remember to adjust *every* email :(
<LaserJock> I like the page though.
<LaserJock> The only thing that I think needs work after that page is the list descriptions
<mdke> you mean on https://lists.ubuntu.com ?
<LaserJock> ubuntu-devel is "Ubuntu Developer Discussion"
<LaserJock> yeah
<mdke> yes, that's a very good point
<LaserJock> that is one of my biggest problems is I think people don't really understand the purpose of the lists
<LaserJock> man, I need to stop editing my sentences half way through
<LaserJock> I think a lot of people would take ubuntu-devel to be about anything about dapper
<mdke> yes
<LaserJock> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/InternetRelayChat has some good info
<LaserJock> maybe if the descriptions had a bit more to them
<mdke> I agree, absolutely
<LaserJock> do maybe we should have a UbuntuMailingList page similar to that IRC or make a page that includes both (so you get the channel and ML)
* mdke shrugs
<mdke> these things should all be on the website anyway, rather than the wiki, IMO
<LaserJock> yes, yes. I agree. I just don't know how they would get done
<mdke> well, we will be getting a new webmaster soon, they will no doubt wish to tackle the website structure
<LaserJock> who is the current webmaster? henrick?
<mdke> henrik, yes
<LaserJock> are any doc team members Canonical employees?
<mdke> well, it depends what you mean by members
<mdke> henrik and mpt are employees, and are fairly active
<mdke> no one with commit access though
<LaserJock> ah
<LaserJock> I'm always curious to see who is a Canonical person and who isn't.
<mdke> heh
<mdke> you have to become a Canonical employee to find out, like the Masons
<LaserJock> in MOTU I think we only have 1 or 2
<LaserJock> heh
<LaserJock> I could always ping sabdfl and ask him ;-)
<mdke> in fact even they don't know all the time
<LaserJock> I bet
<LaserJock> well, I know there is a new QA person in Montreal
<mdke> yes
<LaserJock> but with this Kubuntu-de stuff I got to wondering what people Canonical had working on Ubuntu
<mdke> there must be about 10 of em, I guess
<LaserJock> I would think mostly in the core-dev area
<mdke> well, every canonical person working on Ubuntu is in the core-dev area, by definition, I'd say
<LaserJock> perhaps
<mdke> well, maybe not jdub
<LaserJock> it gets pretty muddy for me though. like JaneW
<LaserJock> she is in the ubuntu-drivers team
<LaserJock> which makes sense
<mdke> yah, good point
<LaserJock> it would be fun to see an organizational chart, but don't think I can expect that from a business
<LaserJock> I don't know that they usually publish such things
<mdke> probly not
<LaserJock> hmm, sometimes I wish we could do bans/kicks on MLs ;-)
<LaserJock> I'd probably get banned if we could so I better shut up
<mdke> heh
<LaserJock> I just sent an email to edubuntu-devel. Hopefully it is ok.
<LaserJock> they are looking to start an edubuntu council to approve members (I think Kubuntu is doing something similar)
<mdke> interesting
<mdke> I hope it sticks to members, and doesn't decentralise anything else from the regular CC
<LaserJock> at this point no, but I'm not sure in the futur after Mark's Kubuntu email
* mdke doesn't like that idea
<LaserJock> I don't see why Edubuntu would need to
<mdke> ok, bed for me
<mdke> night
<LaserJock> cya mdke 
* LaserJock will be eagerly awaiting the book
<LaserJock> mdke: you did the Ubuntu Desktop Guide, right?
<jsgAFK> hey klepas 
<klepas> moin
<LaserJock> hi klepas and jsgAFK 
<jsgAFK> hey
<klepas> moin moin
<klepas> what's doing?
<robotgeek> howdy klepas 
<mpt> mdke, it's no secret that Canonical has about 50 employees <http://www.digitalsy.org.uk/eskillsdocs/Ubuntu%20Presentation.pdf>, of which about 20 work on Ubuntu and 1 works on Kubuntu
<mpt> and from attending the Launchpad meetings you can see that there are about 15 of us in the Launchpad team
<jsgotangco> heh i couldnt scrollback in irssi i dunno what's the fuss
<jsgotangco> mpt: yeah and there are a good number of admin and business development people too not really visible on irc
<mpt> yes
<Burgundavia> what are we talking about?
<mpt> Canonical employees, Burgundavia 
<Burgundavia> ah
<Burgundavia> yes, malcolm and janes are not on irc at all
<mpt> They are, just not on public channels
<Burgundavia> ah, they are on #canonical?
<Burgundavia> mdke: did you see that flashplugin-nonfree seems to be fixed?
<crimsun> yes, the previous fubar is my fault, sorry.
<Burgundavia> crimsun: that you are working on it is good. thanks
<Madpilot> hi all
<klepas> ahoy
<Madpilot> hi klepas 
<Madpilot> klepas, have you see the mockup Matt East did of the covers w/ Lulu's automatic handling of titles?
<klepas> no
<Madpilot> just a sec, I'll put it up on the web
<klepas> thanks :)
<Madpilot> it's... not as nice as I'd hoped it would be - but we need the automated title generation for for all the translated versions
<Madpilot> http://www.warbard.ca/temp/289954_cover_large.jpg
<Madpilot> getting rid of the text I added is easy enough, I'm just not too happy with the placement of what Lulu's added
<Madpilot> klepas, just for comparision, here's the cover page at full size and before Lulu dumps stuff on it: http://www.warbard.ca/temp/Ubuntu_Lulu_cover_draft_CQsize.png
<Madpilot> Burgundavia, flaky hotel wireless?
<Burgundavia> no, crashy beta install
<Burgundavia> it can only be a bad install, to explain all the random errors I came getting
<Madpilot> or you've dropped your laptop once too often :P
<klepas> ah, crud.
<klepas> severe lag
<robitaille> did the laptop got x-rayed at an airport recently?
<klepas> sorry
<Burgundavia> robitaille: no, I teleported to OK...
<klepas> Madpilot: i had some different ideas
<Burgundavia> the crashiness happened the night before I left
<klepas> i'll send them to you soon
<klepas> give me another day or so
<Burgundavia> ;)
<Madpilot> klepas, sure - do you want me to put the SVGs of my work up? (it's all done in Inkscape so far)
<Burgundavia> wow, hotel television has 4 different channels filled with gov't people babbing on, including cpan and cpan2
<robotgeek> usually the most uninteresting thing going on
<robotgeek> sometimes can be interesting though :P
<Burgundavia> actually right now senate digital committee is talking about sateillite radio and licensing costs
<Madpilot> and whether Howard Stern should be censored on sat radio too? :P
<Burgundavia> no, just licensing on XM and Sirius
<Madpilot> wow, big SVGs eat RAM - I was up to 94% usage, 6% cache, with four of the big covers open at once in Inkscape...
<Madpilot> that's 94% of 1Gb, too...
* Madpilot contemplates a 2nd Gb...
<Burgundavia> ok, US senators are morons. They are going to remove the right to time shift
<Burgundavia> the xm guy is arguing that the ipod or xm receiver is no different then a vcr or a tape deck, which nobody else in the room seems to get
<klepas> Madpilot: sure
<Madpilot> klepas, just a moment
<Burgundavia> night all
<Madpilot> night Burgundavia 
<Madpilot> klepas - and anyone else interested: http://www.warbard.ca/temp/Ubuntu_SVG/
<klepas> what i have in mind is quite different
<Madpilot> klepas, cool - get some mockups together - are you on the docteam's mailing list?
<Madpilot> Burgundavia, before you go: http://www.eff.org/IP/DRM/piratead/CEA_ad.png
<klepas> Madpilot: yes
<klepas> but far away from home at the moment
<klepas> i don't have access to the email account i use for the mailing lists
<Madpilot> klepas, I don't think there's any massive hurry - we've still got a month before Dapper releases, after all
<klepas> sure
<klepas> well i get back on Saturday
<klepas> i've got some other deadlines though before then and right after
<klepas> so you're looking at maybe a week
<robotgeek> poningru: you added EasyUbuntu to the wiki page on restricted formats
<robotgeek> poningru: that's a bad thing to do, as Easyubuntu is definetly not ready/safe/etc to be recommended on that page
<robotgeek> as one of the primary developers on EasyUbuntu, i know :P
<mdke> morning
<robotgeek> morning mdke 
<Madpilot> hi mdke 
<mdke> Madpilot, you think we need to use automatic title generation for the covers?
<Madpilot> mdke, if we want to have all the translations available to publish, I think we do - hopefully they can be made less ugly, though...
<mdke> well, I'd envisage only publishing the complete translations, dunno how many there will be
<mdke> a fair number
<mdke> but we can't change what lulu does with the text at all, I think, certainly not in terms of position
<Madpilot> too bad
<mdke> so if we want any control, we need to do the text ourselves
<mdke> mpt, wow, as much as 20. Cool. However "1 works on kubuntu" isn't right at all, because all developers who don't work on gnome also work on kubuntu
<Madpilot> hmm - anyone know enough scripting to change SVGs with some semi-automatic tool? They are ultimately XML, after all, and I think inkscape can produce PNGs from SVGs from the command line...
<robotgeek> Madpilot: what you need?
<Madpilot> robotgeek, I'm imagining some way of getting nice looking translated covers for the Lulu printing
<mpt> mdke, only in the same sense that they "work on" Xubuntu
<mpt> Kubuntu, Xubuntu, Edubuntu, etc benefit from their work, certainly
<mpt> Actually, ogra works specifically on Edubuntu as well
<mdke> mpt, yes, in that sense.
<Madpilot> robotgeek, something that takes the translated strings from our docbook xml, sticks it into the SVG, then outputs a PNG from the SVG for lulu to use...
<mdke> mpt, that's the same sense in which they work on Ubuntu, too
<robotgeek> Madpilot: only for the title?
<Madpilot> robotgeek, title of each guide, and translation of "Ubuntu Documentation Team" - that's all that is on the covers, currently
<mpt> mdke, I think most of them would disagree, but I haven't asked them.
<mdke> Madpilot, how long does it take to change the text manually?
<Madpilot> mdke, not long, but if we've got six guides in dozens of translations each, that adds up
<mdke> well, 4 guides
<mdke> but i have to get those translations manually anyway when uploading the book, so.
<robotgeek> Madpilot: i'll try and see if i can whip up a python script tommorow, gotta hit bed now
<Madpilot> robotgeek, that would be cool - talk to you later
<Madpilot> mdke, how much of the translation -> Lulu process is actually manual right now?
<mdke> Madpilot, well, since it is a web dialogue, it is all manual
<mdke> you go through various steps uploading the files and inserting descriptions and so on
<mdke> Madpilot, did I understand the question right?
<Madpilot> yeah - was afk for a moment
<Madpilot> having to fire up Inkscape & manually edit the SVGs again would add another couple of steps to the process
<Madpilot> that's why I was wondering about some sort of scripting for it
<Madpilot> when did you drop off?
<mdke> "was afk for a moment"
<Madpilot> big netsplit
<Madpilot> having to fire up Inkscape & manually edit the SVGs again would add another couple of steps to the process
<Madpilot> having to fire up Inkscape & manually edit the SVGs again would add another couple of steps to the process
<mdke> yes
<mdke> Madpilot, about the trimming at the top: is it tricky to move the logos down a bit?
<mdke> it's a small point
<mdke> gtg, see ya later
<Madpilot_> gah - got disconnected somehow in that netsplit...
<mdke> evening
<keith> does anyone know the default CUPS admin id and password?  root and it's password does not work
<keith> running 5.10
<mdke> keith, you might try #ubuntu for support questions
<mdke> or the forums/wiki etc
<keith> thanks
<keith> if I find it, it should be documented
<keith> later....
<LaserJock> morning doc people
<mdke> morning laserman
<LaserJock> did I miss a doc team meeting recently?
<mdke> no, we haven't had one for ages
<LaserJock> ok, I've been so busy that I have forgotten to check the fridge for a while
<mdke> jjesse: ping
<jjesse> mdke: pong :)
<mdke> jjesse: I can't send you emails so I couldn't reply to you today
<jjesse> mdke: just to me?
<jjesse> problems sending meail
<mdke> yeah, they come back
<mdke> jjesse: to log on, do "ssh doc.ubuntu.com" then enter your password
<jjesse> mdke: wierd i'll look into it, wondered why my email was so slow :(
<mdke> it has happened to me twice now in the last couple of weeks
<mdke> change the password to something reasonably secure after you login with the command "passwd"
<LaserJock> hurry jjesse hurry, before the MS spies get in! ;-)
<jjesse> lol :)
<LaserJock> they know that we hold the secrets to Bug #1 ;-)
<jjesse> mdke: thanks got it
<LaserJock> mdke: should I send an email to bzrgrp members to tell them how to get the repo etc.
<jjesse> now all i need to figure out how to check things out :)
<LaserJock> lol
<LaserJock> jjesse: what version of bzr do you have?
<jjesse> should it be bzr ng?
<jjesse> 0.8pre
<LaserJock> no bazaar-ng is bzr, regular old bazaar is call baz, I think
<LaserJock> jjesse: ok, so you can use the repo in 2 different ways, one that is svn-like (with bzr checkout) and one that is bzr-like (bzr branch)
<LaserJock> jjesse: are you doing this over dialup?
<jjesse> LaserJock: currently at work
<jjesse> t-1
<LaserJock> ok, I was going to say that you could also download a tarball of the repo, but it is still 57MB
<LaserJock> jjesse: the fastest way to get a branch right now is to just rsync it
<LaserJock> the location is /srv/doc.ubuntu.com/www/bzr/
<jjesse> just type bzr branch /srv/doc.ubuntu.com/www/bzr/ ?
<LaserJock> jjesse: umm, to start with try bzr branch sftp://<username>@doc.ubuntu.com/srv/doc.ubuntu.com/www/bzr/ ubuntu-doc-bzr
<LaserJock> ack, but that might not work because of a password bug in bzr if you don't have ssh keys set up
<LaserJock> for the slowest, but surest method just do bzr branch http://doc.ubuntu.com/bzr/ ubuntu-doc-bzr
<LaserJock> or faster would be rsync -avrz -e "ssh" ubuntu-doc-bzr <username>@doc.ubuntu.com:/srv/doc.ubuntu.com/www/bzr/
<LaserJock> one of the problems I see right now with bzr is that there are soo many ways of doing basically the same thing
<jjesse> best place to learn about setting up ssh keys?
<jjesse> hmm cause bzr branch sftp://jjesse@doc.ubuntu.com/www/bzr/ ubuntu-doc-bzr asks for a password but displays it in clear text?
<LaserJock> jjesse: yeah, that is a bzr bug ATM
<LaserJock> jjesse: I used http://www.arches.uga.edu/~pkeck/ssh/ for help with setting up ssh key
<LaserJock> jjesse: I did that yesterday :-)
<mdke> also wiki:SSHHowto
<mdke> LaserJock: yeah maybe some links to some bzr4newbies docs
<LaserJock> mdke: yeah, unfortunately most of all the docs I could find were about using bzr locally
<LaserJock> mdke: I'll try to scare some up and send an email out with as much info as I can find, or maybe a wiki page might be better
<mdke> coolio
<LaserJock> hmm, I don't really see any docs on the wiki about bzr usage
<jjesse> maybe on the launchpad wiki?
<LaserJock> I know that bazaar-vcs.org has a wiki, but it isn't exactly the most user friendly in my experience
<mdke> they have their own wiki
<LaserJock> it seems to be more for their development use than for users to some degree
<mdke> if it isn't user friendly, you should tell jblack, I think it's his job
<LaserJock> a lot of the pages don't apply to the current versions
<LaserJock> and some of the newer features don't seem to be on there, and as I said before, most of it seems to be geared towards local use
<LaserJock> jjesse: the fastest way to get the branch if you want to do that (instead of the checkout) would be to do the rsync
<mdke> LaserJock: btw you haven't replied to the patch email from jpatrick yet, at least on list
<LaserJock> mdke: ah, thanks for reminding me. I talked to him on irc but maybe I should send an email also
<LaserJock> I'd like to get people thinking about what they want to do with the PG and forumlate a plan before we start sending diffs
<mdke> sure, I'm not sure if he was aware of string freeze or not
<LaserJock> mdke: I think so, I think he was starting on edgy ;-)
<mdke> cool, good enthusiasm :)
<mdke> ooh
<mdke> fullscreen gnome-terminal is cool
<LaserJock> yeah, with the PG it is hard because all the devs were working hard when we were trying to do the docs
<LaserJock> so it was hard to get help
<mdke> yeah, understood
<LaserJock> mdke: how so?
<mdke> well, it's just cool
<mdke> i use irssi for irc, and having it in full screen is great
<LaserJock> heh, welcome to my world
<mdke> i'll do a screenie
<mdke> http://mdke.org/images/gnome-terminal.png
<LaserJock> anymore I just live in terminals, screen, irssi, mutt, chroots/pbuilder for building packages, vim for editing stuff
<mdke> and I can just keep one workspace completely like this, and flick into it with alt+ctrl mmmmm
<mdke> no panels, no window bars, great
<LaserJock> yep
<mdke> and gnome-terminal is so much faster now, thank god
<LaserJock> I haven't gone to full screen yet on my iMac because there aren't different desktops  :(
<LaserJock> mdke: is that the default irssi theme?
<mdke> yes, with the occasional tweak
<mdke> i played with the statusbar a bit
<LaserJock> i've been trying to find a good theme
<LaserJock> If I can only get mutt working (or rather me working with mutt) then I'd be set
* mdke pats evolution
<LaserJock> well, I'd probably use it if I was ever actually at my Ubuntu box :(
* mdke pats Ubuntu
<LaserJock> heh
<LaserJock> I actually got my Ubuntu box at home set up with Dapper Beta on a clean hard drive
#ubuntu-doc 2006-05-03
<LaserJock> I'm starting pretty much from scratch, very nice
<mdke> cool
<LaserJock> the only problem is that I also have a Windows drive
<mdke> I did a clean install this time too
* robotgeek finished some more EU stuff
<LaserJock> The computer was originally an HP that I bought in 2002 when I started grad school
<LaserJock> but I put a new motherboard in and added an Ubuntu hard drive
<LaserJock> but now Windows is totally screwed. It doesn't recognize my product key
<LaserJock> it must be tied to the hardware somehow :(
<mdke> haha
<mdke> that sucks so bad
<LaserJock> yeah, because my wife still uses Windows :(
<mdke> what for?
<LaserJock> and she is mad at me for mucking with the computer
<mdke> tell her that you're the computer boss, and she has to use Ubuntu
<mdke> (WORKSFORME)
<LaserJock> actually, the only thing she uses it for is to access the printer from our laptop
<LaserJock> so if I can set up the printer as a samba share or something, then I think it might work
<mdke> cups printer
<LaserJock> but it did have a lot of data on it, I will need to get that off
<LaserJock> but it just makes me soooo mad that MS would do that
<LaserJock> at least it gives me an example for my wife that MS is from the devil
<mdke> yeah
<LaserJock> and that computer didn't even come with recovery discs or Windows CDs. You have no access to your OS
<LaserJock> way to go mdke, that's the way to get things done ;-)
<mdke> it's all about hitting the right person
<LaserJock> very true
<LaserJock> that and not making the right person mad
<mdke> last time I chatted to pitti and ogra, they didn't know why
<mdke> this time, you get keybuk, he sorts it straight away
<poningru> robotgeek: ping
<robotgeek> poningru: pong
<robotgeek> poningru: did you get those messges in you away log?
<poningru> robotgeek: yeah apologies about adding easyubuntu
<poningru> I had asked a ton of people
<poningru> just didnt find you
<robotgeek> poningru: heh, no worries.
<robotgeek> i got most of my stuff from that page, it will soon be ready :)
<poningru> robotgeek: I would like to contribute...
<poningru> summer is coming up, I dont really have anything to do
<robotgeek> poningru: http://tinyurl.com/kw4u 
<poningru> ???
* poningru is confoozled
<robotgeek> wtf, not again
<poningru> whats wrong now?
<robotgeek> i made a clever list of pages in tinyurl, it doesn't seem to stick
<robotgeek> bugs list, err
<robotgeek> poningru: #easyubuntu-dev please :)
<mdke> ooh, we can do lots of playing with our lulu storefront
<mdke> good
<LaserJock> mdke: URL?
<mdke> http://www.lulu.com/ubuntu-doc
<LaserJock> heh, somehow I thought it would be messier then that
<robotgeek> nice
* mdke tries to turn everything brown
<LaserJock> interesting
* mdke gives up
<mdke> man, lulu is pretty cool
<LaserJock> heh, I didn't look to bad, just not very Ubuntu-like
<mdke> what's that?
<LaserJock> the green you had
<mdke> ah, I was just scrolling through the various themes
<LaserJock> ah, well I must have refreshed on one
<mdke> went back to the simple one and added some brown
<mdke> ok, night all
<LaserJock> cya mdke 
<LaserJock> darn, I should have said something about the espresso -> ubiquity change
<robotgeek> hah, i havent mentioned espresso at all :P
<robotgeek> i thing only about Kubuntu and release notes will need to be changed
<robotgeek> s/thing/think
<LaserJock> I haven't either, but I knew about the change a while ago
<jjesse> !yup already have them changed and submitting tomorrow :)
<jjesse> about kubuntu and releasenotes
<jjesse> night folks
<robotgeek> jjesse: night, awesome!
<mdke_> morning
<highvoltage> morning
<mdke> ooh paris eh
<mdke> good call
* trappist declares this Bring Your Puppy to Work Day
<LaserJock> morning doc people
<robotgeek> morning LaserJock 
<mdke> hiya
<LaserJock> robotgeek: you interested in packaging electronics apps?
<robotgeek> LaserJock: hmm, i don't know if i have time right now
<LaserJock> robotgeek: well, I was thinking more in general
* robotgeek spends a bit too much of time on Ubuntu work 
<mdke> what do people think about adding LTS to the version number entities?
<mdke> i think we may have to, but it will result in a decent number of translations breaking :-(
<LaserJock> mdke: well, I sorta think it is important that we have the name of the distro right
<mdke> if that is part of the name, then yes
<LaserJock> mdke: it would only reflect badly on the doc team if we don't, even though I don't really think it is our fault exactly ;-)
<mdke> if it's part of the version number, then we should add it, I suppose.
<robotgeek> but would we have to rewrite all translations? that would suck, really bad
<mdke> robotgeek: not all, but quite a few strings probably
<robotgeek> mdke: can't we entitize even that?
<mdke> no
<LaserJock> seemes like there should be a better system that way for translations
<robotgeek> LTS is LTS, and maybe add one line somewhere about LTS = Long Term Support
<LaserJock> like you just translate the entitity or something
<mdke> robotgeek: it would go in the "Version and release numbers" section of the desktopguide and about ubuntu, dunno if you have that section in kDG
<robotgeek> Yeah, i have that section
<mdke> best to make it a separate paragraph, if possible, so that the string doesn't need to be changed
<mdke> oh.,
<mdke> changing the entity results in 2 string changes to UDG
<mdke> that's not bad :D
<LaserJock> heh, mdke is all excited about nothing ;-) oh the drama :p
* mdke slaps
<mdke> 4 strings in serverguide
<mdke> nothing in PG
<mdke> ok, this is all fine then
<mdke> robotgeek: so perhaps we should add a section to explain the long term nature of dapper, do you think it is warranted?
<LaserJock> mdke: I think sabdfl would be pleased
<mdke> well, in *that* case :)
<robotgeek> mdke: heh, go for it
<mdke> I'm going to put it in after "The Difference"
<mdke> and I'll post it here for review
<mdke> meh, I can't think of anything to say
<robotgeek> mdke: copy paste from sabdfl's announcement :)
<mdke> ok, looking. In the meantime, I've done this:
<mdke> <para>Every   <para>Every Ubuntu release is supported for 18 months with security and other updates. However, Ubuntu &distro-rev; is a special enterprise release, and is supported for 3 years on the desktop, and 5 years on the server. As a result, it will be possible to rely on Ubuntu &distro-rev; for a longer period than usual. Therefore this release of Ubuntu is referred to as &quot;LTS&quot; or &quot;Long Term Support&quot;.</para>
<robotgeek> nice, good enough i think
<mdke> do we want to ham it up any more than that, you think?
<mdke> the word "polish" might be used, I spose
<LaserJock> yeah, that will get all the people from Poland reading ;-)
* mdke winces
<mdke> so, I'll leave it like that, unless you guys have anything you'd like to add
<robotgeek> if i'm reading the mailing list in webbroswer, i can't view signed messages. any hints?
<LaserJock> hmm, I would want to throw in that 6.06 LTS had a longer development cycle to ensure that it is enterprise ready
<LaserJock> or something to the fact that something was actuallly *done* to make it LTS
<LaserJock> robotgeek: signed? you should only not be able to see encrypted messages, I would think
<robotgeek> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/sounder/2006-April/006275.html for example
<mdke> robotgeek: it's a mailman bug I suppose
<robotgeek> hmm, i am able to read it on gmane, though
<mdke> hmm
<robotgeek> food beckons, later
<mdke> alright
<mdke> http://mdke.org/images/lts.png
<mdke> LaserJock: ^
<LaserJock> mdke: on it
<LaserJock> awesome
<LaserJock> I think it says a lot to why we had the 6 week delay and the idea of having an LTS release
<mdke> ok, I'm going to post to the list and ask for feedback before committing
<mdke> maybe -devel too
<LaserJock> yeah,  you are sure to get feedback from -devel ;-)
<mdke> hmm
<LaserJock> but to be honest, I didn't really realize what this was all about until today
<LaserJock> so I think it might be worthwile to get the word out
<LaserJock> I assumed that every release from Dapper onward was going to have 3/5 year support
<mdke> ouch, string freeze was yesterday too
<LaserJock> heh, what's a few freeze exceptions between friends?
* mdke crosses fingers
<LaserJock> I wish we (as a Project) were a little better about Freezes
<LaserJock> in the MOTU world it seems more like a Chill rather than Freeze
<mdke> great word
<mdke> mdz is pretty strict about freezes actually, generally
<LaserJock> yeah, Universe seems to be a bit of an exception (pun intended)
<LaserJock> hi jsgotangco 
<jsgotangco> LaserJock: hi!
<mdke> robotgeek: ok, check out the text, if you're happy for me to add it to the KDG too (with s/Ubuntu/Kubuntu), I'll commit everything
<mdke> hey jerome
<jsgotangco> mdke: good morning
<mdke> jjesse: ping
<jsgotangco> mdke: how goes the translations?
<mdke> they're going well, subject to some more string freeze exceptions coming their way ;)
<jsgotangco> heh
<mdke> hiya joachim-n 
<jsgotangco> hey
<robotgeek> mdke: looks good to me :)
<mdke> robotgeek: alright. I'll upload. what do you think about putting it in about kubuntu, after "The Difference"?
<mdke> robotgeek: also, have a look at the second half of this patch: http://mdke.org/ubuntu/desktopguide.patch (for the renaming of the install cds), shall I apply that to KDG too?
<mdke> sorry for the absence of wrapping
<robotgeek> mdke: ooh, nice work 
<mdke> ok for KDG?
<robotgeek> does rosetta automagically handle line numbers?
<robotgeek> yes, okay for KDG 
<mdke> thanks.
<mdke> yes, it merges line numbers
<robotgeek> mdke: thank you!
<joachim-n> hi
<robotgeek> hi joachim-n 
* mdke finishes all those changes
<mdke> I'll commit, then at the worst we can tinker if necessary.
<jjesse> mdke: wrote back to you, go and ahed and change about kubuntu as i'm swamped right now at work, everyone else has the day off :(
<mdke> jjesse: did it. Your email is broken still
<jjesse> hmmm wonder what is wrong with it as I'm sending and receiving other email
<mdke> <jjesse@iserv.net>: host mail.iserv.net[69.87.129.140]  said: 553 5.3.0 Rejected by Iserv RBL - 62.241.163.6 (in reply to MAIL FROM command)
<jjesse> mdke: is your email on a blacklist someplace?
<mdke> not to my knowledge.
<LaserJock> hehe, jjesse blacklists mdke
<jsgotangco> ehhehe
<jjesse> ok gotta contact my isp then
<jjesse> sent an email to my isp to try and figure this out, wonder how many other emails i'm missing
<highvoltage> hi docteam
<jjesse> helo highvoltage
<highvoltage> you know those templates that wikipedia uses in mediawiki?
<highvoltage> hi jjesse 
<highvoltage> do we have something similar in moinmoin for the ubuntu wiki?
<highvoltage> i need something that says something to the lines of "This dodgy documentation, follow at your own risk"
<highvoltage> for an example, see: https://wiki.edubuntu.org/MondoMindi
<jsgotangco> i dont think we such kind of templates that look like those in mediawiki
<jsgotangco> we have
<jsgotangco> i mean
<jsgotangco> err we don't have
<jsgotangco> gahh
<jsgotangco> (2am)
<highvoltage> hehe
<highvoltage> is it moin that doesn't support them, or is it just not used at the moment?
<highvoltage> it would even be nice just to say that this page is still a stub, and that you can improve it.
<highvoltage> there are also a few pages that really shouldn't be there, i mean, that's really not good advice.
<jsgotangco> it would be nice to have something like {{dodgy}} template
<jsgotangco> then automagically adds that at the top
<LaserJock> wouldn't that be something for CategoryCleanup, or no?
<jsgotangco> sure but i think CamelCase doesn't grab attention unlike what mediawiki uses
<highvoltage> and that also just adds one word way at the bottom of the doc.
<highvoltage> with the template you can put up something big and noticable
<mdke> I'm not sure about what you want to do, but I think it's likely that you can do it in moin. Best to ask in #moin
<jsgotangco> mdke: something similar to what wikipedia uses for current events/disputable entries
<highvoltage> mdke: those two block at the top in this page are templates: http://wiki.clug.org.za/wiki/Roaming_between_wireless_and_wired
<highvoltage> so you just add {{newpage}} or {{debian}} in the page, and the blocks are there
<highvoltage> if you look at this page: http://uncyclopedia.org/wiki/Linus_Torvalds
<jsgotangco> yeah that's mediawiki style
<highvoltage> there's a template there tha links to the wikipedia page
<highvoltage> jsgotangco: yeah, i just want to show him what we're talking about
<jsgotangco> i love that feature
<jsgotangco> you can just make a template with virtually any size you want and just embed it
<jsgotangco> have a good weekend guys
<jjesse> how do i make a link in a wiki page to a sub page for example want to link to KubuntuDocs/Dapper
<highvoltage> just like that :)
<highvoltage> KubuntuDocs/Dapper will link do KubuntuDocs/Dapper :)
<jjesse> hmm didn't do it correctly look at KubuntuDocs on the wiki
* highvoltage looks
<highvoltage> jjesse: it seems to work by adding it in  [" "] 
<highvoltage> so putting ["KubuntuDocs"]  should work (just tested it there)
<jjesse> thanks highvoltage
<highvoltage> you're welcom
<highvoltage> e
#ubuntu-doc 2006-05-04
<robotgeek> some people just can't get a joke
<highvoltage> robotgeek: please share
<robotgeek> highvoltage: when i replied that i "speelchecked" the wiki page, i get a email saying how i should spellcheck my email
<highvoltage> hehe
<robotgeek> well, i'll stick a smiley in there next time, or put it in quotes
<highvoltage> people are strange.
<crimsun> nah, just make it even more blaringly obvious that you're being sarcastic ;)
<highvoltage> they jump to a conclusion and tent to be too lazy to think different scenarios through.
<robotgeek> well, it was funny. :P
<mdke> evening
<rob> hi mdke 
<mdke> yo
* mdke yawns
<LaserJock> hi mdke 
<mdke> hi LaserJock 
<mgalvin> LaserJock: i was just reading through some of the packaging guide, great job dude!
<mdke> do any of you use pyblosxom?
<LaserJock> mgalvin: thank, quite a bit of it was taken from othere peoples work so I can't take complete credit for it
<mgalvin> still, it has a good flow to it and is easy to read, very nice :)
<LaserJock> I hope so
<mgalvin> mdke: nope, i have been using wordpress, works well
<LaserJock> and I really think that the edgy version will be much better
<mgalvin> cool, hopefully by then i will be able to get back into more docteam work
<mdke> mgalvin: I wanted something without having to figure out mysql
<mgalvin> wordpress is *super simple* to install
<mgalvin> you don't ever touch mysql directly
<mgalvin> well, not totally true, i think you need to create a user iirc
<mgalvin> meh, they all do their job well
<mdke> pyblosxom is really nice, although the error messages when it fails to work are appallingly opaque
* mdke has decided that 3 am is a good time to rewrite his website and put up a blog
<rob> heh
<rob> sleep deprivation makes you do odd things sometimes
<LaserJock> ugg, I've been at school 12 hrs now :/
<rob> hehe I have a long weekend :)
<mdke> here too, it's a holiday on monday
<rob> Labour day on Monday for us
<mdke> we don't have any reason for our holidays here
<mdke> in some places they celebrate stuff, religious or otherwise
<mdke> here it's just "meh, can't be arsed"
<LaserJock> heh, what about that Guy Falks day or something
<mdke> I'm not sure that's a holiday tho :/
<mdke> dunno
<robotgeek> hmm, i shud email jdub again, 3rd time is the charm
<mdke> keep trying, he's hard to track down
<mdke> ping him incessantly here too
<robotgeek> i've never found him on irc
<mdke> heh
* mdke concludes his website rewrite
<mdke> night all
<robotgeek> night mdke 
<Madpilot> hi jsgotangco 
<jsgotangco> Madpilot: hi!
<Madpilot> interesting emails from Mr. Tangye, yes?
<jsgotangco> Madpilot: part reality, part troll
<jsgotangco> people expect too much from Ubuntu IMO
<Madpilot> yeah - the email where he basically says, "I started out offensive to see how people would react" was... entertaining...
<jsgotangco> i'll have a quick bite
<jsgotangco> Madpilot: can you look into my Ubuntu Food spec hahahaha
<Madpilot> huh?
<robotgeek> replied to him
<jsgotangco> its not meant to be taken seriously (the food spec)
<jsgotangco> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuFoodProductSpecification
<jsgotangco> although I bet JaneW would want a BOF for this hahaha
<robotgeek> lol
<robotgeek> i wonder why people think that someone abuses them, they will be friendly to them. 
<Madpilot> jsgotangco, cool spec!
<rob> Madpilot, he emailed me off list, I suspect thats why we haven't seen the second and third part yet
<Madpilot> 2nd part got posted earlier in the part 1 thread, actually
<rob> ah
<rob> took him a while at least :)
<Madpilot> there's also a large addition to the /talk page of the BetterWiki page
<rob> heh
<rob> hmm I don't seem to have gotten the 2 part
<rob> some crap on "customer focus" though
<robotgeek> the /talk on betterwikidocs has nice ideas, but there's only so much time in the world :)
<rob> I think I'm just going to auto-delete email from him if he keeps up the trolling
<Madpilot> nah, just ask where his patches for the stuff in trunk are ;)
<Madpilot> you know, the super professional, amazingly complete docs he's going to pull out of... somewhere... to show us amateurs how it's done...
<jsgotangco> Madpilot: show us the code haha
<robotgeek> it's like on the forums, "how to make Desktop better" discussion, degrades into a discussion into flash/codecs issue
<jsgotangco> gahh i really hate firefox
* jsgotangco starts installing epi
<robotgeek> konqueror for everyone. yay!
<rob> show us the code is exactly right
<jsgotangco> robotgeek: i've always been an epiphany user but this is a new Beta 2
<robotgeek> jsgotangco: hmm, i think i will bite the bullet and download the ubuntu live cd too :P
<Madpilot> I'm torrenting the Ubuntu Beta2 LiveCD now
<jsgotangco> robotgeek: the text-install beta 2 didn't change from beta1
<jsgotangco> beta 2 is mostly fixes for ubiquity
<robotgeek> jsgotangco: i havent tried ubuntu dapper at all 
<jsgotangco> robotgeek: doh
<robotgeek> jsgotangco: where is it on cdimage.ubuntu.com?
<Madpilot> robotgeek, https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-announce/2006-April/000072.html
<robotgeek> thanks Madpilot 
<jsgotangco> call me old school but I'm sticking to text-install :)
<Madpilot> heh
<Madpilot> if I had a spare machine, I'd try espresso/whatever it's called today, but I don't, so...
<jsgotangco> part 3?
<jsgotangco> heh
<Madpilot> "I also plan to address this in part 3." - um, it's a direct effect of the six month release cycle + translation support, there isn't much we can "address", AFAIK...
<jsgotangco> no i just gave him a reply smackdown for his part 3
<Madpilot> that's a polite version of "show us the code" :P
<rob> I just shot off something quick along those lines too
<rob> umm, mine was right to the point
<robotgeek> heh, i don't think he's going to come and write docs for us
<rob> robotgeek, thats the whole point :)
<rob> eek, stupid spell check
<robotgeek> well, this is the first such mail i've seen on the list though
<Madpilot> rob, "coarse" vs "course"? ;)
<rob> Madpilot, yup
<robotgeek> gah, why do all the wiki markups have to be different
<jsgotangco> i love this
<robotgeek> ah, mystery
<robotgeek> everyone loves suspense. 
<jsgotangco> he speaks as if we're clueless
<jsgotangco> brb
<Madpilot> gah, Mr. Tangye becomes more arrogant-sounding with every post...
<mgalvin> whoa, hey how did my wifes food get there, hehe :)
* robotgeek ignores and goes to post blog entry
<mgalvin> it sounds like a soap opera ... answerd in part 3, this is kind of amusing
<mgalvin> maybe i should stay up for the conclusion
<jsgotangco> haha
<mgalvin> hey jerome, hows it going dude
<jsgotangco> i finally have a long break from work starting next week :)
<mgalvin> cool
<robotgeek> nice, vacation is always nice
<jsgotangco> the next 2 months would be insteresting
<robotgeek> from the dept. of redundancy
<Madpilot> robotgeek, you mean the Dept. of Redundancy Dept.? ;)
<robotgeek> yeah, that. :)
<jsgotangco> ive been here since late 2004 and we still get the same kind of email
<Madpilot> jsgotangco, which "here" are you talking about?
<jsgotangco> -doc
<robotgeek> not japanese spam :)
<Madpilot> the "I can come swaggering in knowing how to solve all your problems" type emails?
<jsgotangco> Madpilot: that too
<jsgotangco> robotgeek: the doc list has tons of it heh
<robotgeek> jsgotangco: we must have nice spam filters 
<robitaille> ubuntu mailing lists have human spam filters :)
<jsgotangco> we average around 20 - 30 / day for spam involving east asian character sets
<robitaille> wow...the ubuntu-ca list average a lot less spam email per day....still annoying but not at that level
<Madpilot> -doc is much better known, the email address is all over the place
<rob> should have seen the email he just sent to me direct
<jsgotangco> heh
<rob> "This is offline, for your own good even if you do not realise it."
<rob> o k..
<jsgotangco> lol
<jsgotangco> ok time for a break
<Madpilot> wow
* rob sends rather abusive email back;
<jsgotangco> meet the students i am mentoring
<jsgotangco> http://www.flickr.com/photos/jsgotangco/136738193/
<rob> apparently he has more experience writing documentation than any of us..
<rob> or so he says
<Madpilot> any links to this wonderful documentation?
<rob> I've asked three times now..
<rob> none yet :)
<Madpilot> jsgotangco, university or HS students?
<jsgotangco> uni
<jsgotangco> they look like HS to you?
<Madpilot> wasn't sure - sometimes I can't tell :P
<robotgeek> better to ask than to regret :)
<jsgotangco> 2 of them are uber-python coders at their age
<Madpilot> ... not going there, robotgeek ;)
<robotgeek> Madpilot: :)
<robotgeek> night folks
<mdke> morning
<mdke> holy shit that is a lot of emails
<rob> yeah
<rob> that david guy just doesn't let up
<mdke> no.
<rob> I wish he would stop telling us how it should be, and start providing some actual patches instead
<rob> maybe I ask too much
<mdke> rob: the best approach is to leave it alone, and see if he will contribute in the long term
<mdke> don't get personal (see code of conduct)
<rob> yeah
<rob> he has been mailing me off list trying to stir me up
<mdke> it's not difficult to ignore these things
<rob> "I spent many hours in the last week, reading the Ubuntu web. I am not clueless."
<rob> kind of sums it up
<mdke> just avoid replying
<rob> I did a couple of times, I've stopped now
<rob> you know me :)
<mdke> yeah :(
<mdke> you allow yourself to get a bit too angry ;-)
<rob> hopefully I'll get my wireless sorted out on my lappy (running Dapper) then maybe I'll poke you to reset my access to svn again
<rob> going to file a bug report soon I think on it, used to work with Breezy
<mdke> okay
<highvoltage> mdke: your new site looks nicer
<mdke> highvoltage: thank you. I copied it.
<highvoltage> :)
<highvoltage> i've been giving mine a makeover too yesterday.
<highvoltage> i'll add you to my planet too once you've got your blog into your new site :)
<mdke> that would be cool, thanks
<mdke> someone already replied with a script for importing stuff, I love planet Ubuntu
<highvoltage> yeah, i like planet ubuntu too.
<JanC> hello
<JanC> someone on #ubuntu-nl complains that the link to limewire in the starterguide at http://help.ubuntu.com/starterguide/C/ch03s06.html#id2529193 doesn't work anymore
<JanC> and he asks whether this will be updated  :)
<mdke> JanC: hi. We won't update it for the 5.10 guide, but it has been removed in the 6.06 guide
<JanC> hm, it's not possible or too much work to update the guide?
<mdke> bit of both
<mdke> quite a lot of both :)
<highvoltage> 5/win 11
<jsgotangco> hi guys
<mdke> hi jsgotangco 
<jsgotangco> hey mdke :) good morning
<mdke> morning, how's it going?
<jsgotangco> ah just went out today and enjoyed saturday with my daughter after having my usual check up
<jsgotangco> do you have plans to go to france?
<mdke> nice.
<mdke> no plans, no.
<mdke> it's pretty unlikely I will go. maybe for a sneaky weekend
<jsgotangco> but that's a short plane ride no?
<mdke> or 2 and a half hours on the train
<jsgotangco> whoa
<mdke> yeah, it's close
* jsgotangco wonders if he apply for sponsorship
<mdke> can't hurt, if you're free
<jsgotangco> that's the problem i have no idea haha
* highvoltage took the chance
<jsgotangco> yeah doesn't hurt even though i'm not geographically near hah
<jsgotangco> highvoltage: i guess it'll mean better edubuntu specs
<highvoltage> hopefully.
<jsgotangco> now to improve my Ubuntu Food Product Spec
<jsgotangco> hah
<highvoltage> i'm quite keen on expanding to a second cd, ogra doesn't like it much, but i'm sure i'd be able to much better convince him in person.
<highvoltage> jsgotangco: you are art.ubuntu.com, right?
<jsgotangco> yeah
<highvoltage> can we have a gallery there for the food?
<jsgotangco> doing a miserable job on it though
<highvoltage> don't be so hard on yourself :)
<mdke> ah, you've taken over that website?
<mdke> what plans do you have for it?
<jsgotangco> i have high-level admin rights on it
<jsgotangco> i should be doing a spec on it real soon now
<mdke> COOL
<mdke> whoops, caps
<jsgotangco> im also writing a SIP/VoIP spec
<jsgotangco> mdke: having karma on art would be cool too
<mdke> yay for karma
* mdke goes food shopping
<highvoltage> yeah, people have been writing specs like crazy lately
<jsgotangco> heh
<jsgotangco> ok i need to reboot to windows to do some opencd hacks
<jsgotangco> brb
<jsgotangco> highvoltage: do you have a draft of the new edubuntu.org site?
<highvoltage> jsgotangco: something like it, http://proto.edubuntu.org
<jsgotangco> i need to make it similar to our firefox start page
<highvoltage> ah, great!
<highvoltage> i talked to ogra about it, since we'll need links to schooltool/schoolbell from there.
<jsgotangco> i have the list of the features already i just didnt get time to write it
<jsgotangco> today i'm going to finish up that firefox page
<jsgotangco> as well as the one that'll appear in yelp
<highvoltage> nice.
<mdke> Laser_away: ping
<mdke> Laser_away: unping
* highvoltage has never seen an unping on irc before
<mdke> highvoltage: deping?
<jsgotangco> what do you expect, he's english ;)
* mdke grrrs
<highvoltage> mdke: yep
<highvoltage> jsgotangco: well, my ancestors were Englishish too, so watch it!
<jsgotangco> lol
<LaserJock> hi mdke 
<mdke> you were depinged
<mdke> but hi :)
<LaserJock> heh, has a funny sound to it. I can imagin a robot voice "You have be depinged"
<mdke> was just going to ask you about removing the doc-base stuff
<mdke> I think i did it right
<mdke> best to check tho
<LaserJock> ah yes
<mdke> LaserJock: while you're here. does dh_install in kubuntu/debian/rules install things recursively?
<LaserJock> hmm, good question. I wouldn't think so. Usually dh_install is used to just install individual files
<mdke> that's what I thought
<LaserJock> usually a makefile installs most of the files and you just use dh_install to tweak a little
<mdke> is there a way to do it recursively, do you know?
<LaserJock> you could use a plain old cp -r I suppose
<mdke> where would I put that?
<LaserJock> or maybe there is a install flag for that
<LaserJock> give me just a sec
<LaserJock> looks to me like install doesn't do it
<mdke> ok np
<LaserJock> hmm, actually dh_install might do it after all
<LaserJock> mdke: do you need to rename the directory?
<mdke> LaserJock: which directory?
<LaserJock> mdke: the directory that you are trying to install
<mdke> LaserJock: no, not necessarily
<LaserJock> dh_install can't rename
<mdke> np
<LaserJock> do just try dh_install with a directory and I think it should work
<mdke> I will try it, thanks very much
<mdke> any sign of the book?
<LaserJock> not yet, maybe today though. the mail will arrive in a couple hours
<LaserJock> mdke: so are you working on the doc-base changes or do you want me to do it?
<mdke> LaserJock: I thought I'd done it
<LaserJock> oh sorry, I'll check it over
<mdke> thanks
<LaserJock> mdke: yeah, it arrived!!!
<mdke> rock
<mdke> tell us how it looks :)
<robotgeek> yay!
* LaserJock feels like a little boy at Christmas
<LaserJock> mdke: Oh My Gosh, its the packaging guide!
<mdke> hope so
<LaserJock> I thought you sent the desktop guide
<mdke> surprised ya
<LaserJock> it was a suprise, I am speechless
<mdke> what's the cover like?
<LaserJock> the cover looks very nice
<LaserJock> the cover is very orange
<mdke> good news
<LaserJock> hmm, the one ubuntu logo doesn't pop out as me as much as I remember but the text is great
<mdke> ok, glad it is not a disaster in terms of quality
<LaserJock> the icons are very pixelated
<LaserJock> but I imagine those are going to be changed
<robotgeek> mdke: nice touch :)
<mdke> the admon icons? yeah we need to do something about that
<mdke> robotgeek: :)
<LaserJock> hmm, seeing a few things
<LaserJock> mostly in the way links are handled
<mdke> LaserJock: go on
<mdke> the sample links are broken, obviously :/ I don't think anything can be done about that
<LaserJock> well, it looks like internal links just have [number] 
<LaserJock> but I can't find where the numbers lead to
<LaserJock> are there supposed to be footnotes?
<mdke> no, all the links should be in square brackets
<mdke> there shouldn't be any numbers
<LaserJock> there are numbers in the square brackets
<mdke> what page?
<mdke> (an example)
<LaserJock> ah, on page 23 there is: ... from the Section 1, "Packaging Grom Scratch" [12] 
<LaserJock> ack, from the Section , that sounds bad
<mdke> oh, the cross references
<mdke> those are page numbers
<LaserJock> doh, I see
<mdke> that "the" is something we need to do something about
<mdke> it may well be like that in the html too
<mdke> you need to avoid that when using xrefs. "See <xref linkend etc" is the best way to use them, I think.
<LaserJock> yeah, I must have overlooked that
<mdke> possibly in yelp too
<LaserJock> ok, well I'll go through it, but I've got to go for a bit now. Anything else you want to know?
<LaserJock> the size is nice and I think the font is good
<mdke> no, it sounds like it looks ok
<LaserJock> I think we could definately use something on the back cover though
<mdke> yes, i've talked to Madpilot about doing that
<LaserJock> mdke: is the front cover text automatic?
<mdke> no, not at the moment
<LaserJock> because "Packaging Guide" is close to "Ubuntu Documenation Project" but it should be closer to "Ubuntu 6.06"
* mdke nods
<LaserJock> mdke: btw, the doc-base removal wasn't complete
<LaserJock> postrem also has doc-base removal stuff and the doc-base files themselves are still around? should we leave them or not?
<mdke> no, I'll remove them, thanks
<tuxmaniac> guys! Are you talking about the Packaging guide for Ubuntu doc?
<tuxmaniac> I have a suggestion
<tuxmaniac> Pleas make the section Updating packages a bit _more_ clear
<mdke> tuxmaniac: LaserJock is the maintainer
<tuxmaniac> aaahh!! :) LaserJock did you read that!! 
<tuxmaniac> mdke: Do you have any latest draft so that I can review it and give in some suggestions!! 
<mdke> sure, look on http://doc.ubuntu.com
<LaserJock> tuxmaniac: yes, that I am aware of definate deficiencies :/
<mdke> tuxmaniac: however, the document is frozen now for Ubuntu 6.06, any discussion should have the next version in mind, Ubuntu 6.10
<crimsun> http://doc.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/packagingguide/C/basic-updating.html  specifically.
<crimsun> what additional overarching changes could be made to 'updating packages'?
<tuxmaniac> crimsun: hmmm.. You mean that the doc is very clear?
<LaserJock> I'd like to see a section on creating patches (bug fixes, etc.) and then a section for updating new upstream releases (more fore people wanting to maintain a package)
<tuxmaniac> Yes. Perfect.. I would luv to those two also!
<LaserJock> I just didn't have enough time this time to flesh that section out enough.
<LaserJock> it was the last section I did
<LaserJock> at somepoint we have to just let it go and start looking towards the next release :-)
<tuxmaniac> LaserJock: Agreed! :)
<LaserJock> tuxmaniac: but what you can do is go to wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuPackagingGuide and put a note about what you would like to see for the next version of the packaging guide
<crimsun> LaserJock: yeah, the section really only deals with intraversion changes and not interversion changes
<tuxmaniac> Ok.. It goes on my TO DO List right away!
<crimsun> although you probably don't want to pore over every method; that could quickly become a maintenance nightmare
<crimsun> something else that probably needs to be noted is when one should use a patching infrastructure (vs. when one shouldn't)
<crimsun> (i.e., if there's one in place already, use it, otherwise apply directly against the source)
<crimsun> gotta love having office hours on saturday. silly finals.
<LaserJock> crimsun: yes, I totally agree
<LaserJock> I gotta go now, I'll bbl
<mdke> heya Madpilot 
<Madpilot> hi mdke 
<mdke> how'r you?
<mdke> the book arrived, Laser_away says that the cover looked pretty good. 
<Madpilot> cool - with the automated title by Lulu or w/o?
<mdke> w/o
<Madpilot> I was looking at the cover design last night - how to adapt it to use Lulu's automated titles
<mdke> i can adjust the font of the automated titles, make them a bit smaller, if necessary, I think
<Madpilot> good
<mdke> I'm still not convinced about using that automated thing tho
<Madpilot> the Ubuntu/Linux for Human Beings logo/slogan is going to have to move down to the bottom half of the page
<Madpilot> robotgeek was talking about scripting the changes to SVG
<mdke> if it's easy to change the SVGs, I don't mind doing it, because I'll need to fetch the translated strings to put them into lulu anyhow
<Madpilot> I suspect it won't be that hard, but I've got nowhere near the programming skill to pull it off :P
<mdke> me neither
<robotgeek> Madpilot: i have never dealt with unicode strings in python
<mdke> Madpilot: if you have a good idea for repositioning stuff, give it a go and we'll see
<Madpilot> mdke, yeah, I'm going out in a bit for the afternoon, but maybe this evening
<robotgeek> Madpilot: i'll give it a go today
<Madpilot> robotgeek, cool
<robotgeek> i need to learn unicode stuff anyways, for EU
<Madpilot> looks like the text in SVG files is in nested <tspan><text>blah</text></tspan> sets
<robotgeek> let us see if python svg library can help out
<Madpilot> we need the &ubuntu; and &dg-title; and &ubuntu-doc-team; entities from our XML
<mdke> they are not entities in the translations
<Madpilot> the translators convert them into straight text? I'd hoped they'd just translate the entitities file
<Madpilot> robotgeek, Inkscape can do export to PNG in the command line
<mdke> no, they don't have an entities file
<mdke> because each title is longer, there will have to be some kind of manual tweaking to make things fit properly, I would think
<mdke> Madpilot: here it is in a smaller font: http://mdke.org/ubuntu/292345_cover_large.jpg
<Madpilot> cool
<robotgeek> Madpilot: ping me when you come back in there evening, we will work on it
<Madpilot> robotgeek, will do
<Madpilot> mdke, I can just move the Ubuntu/Linux for... part down a bit, and that should work, if we have to use Lulu's automated layout
<mdke> Madpilot: sure, I'm easy either way
<mdke> anyone still here?
<mdke> I can't seem to build the damn docs, dunno what's wrong
<robotgeek> yeah, here
<mdke> it looks like it is trying to download something, and just waits to ping out
<mdke> jeffsch: I remember you solved this last time, can you remember what the problem was?
<robotgeek> mdke: the xml header dtd?
<mdke> right.
<mdke> i thought it looked for it first on the local system
<robotgeek> happended to me a few times
<mdke> does it happen to you now?
<robotgeek> mdke: lemme check
<robotgeek> what are you building?
<mdke> dg in ubuntu/
<robotgeek> mdke: builds for me
<mdke> quickly?
<mdke> damn, I must have messed up something on my system
<robotgeek> yeah, normal speed. doesn't seem like it's going on to the web
#ubuntu-doc 2006-05-05
<LaserJock> mdke: ok, I'm out for a while but I sent the list a summary of what I found with the book
<robotgeek> hmm, much ado about nothing
* robotgeek says non coc things and carries on
<Madpilot> robotgeek, inspired by Mr. Tangye's latest missive? :P
<robotgeek> yeah
<robotgeek> he speaks much like the boss in Office Space
<Madpilot> I couldn't resist any more - I had to weigh in on Mr. Tangye's meanderings... ;)
<robotgeek> hmm, lemme ask gmail again
<Madpilot> it's another "show us the code" post, which I predict he'll ignore - again
<robotgeek> nicely worded
<Madpilot> thnx
<robitaille> Madpilot: https://launchpad.net/people/davidtangye     I'm not sure he can edit in the wiki, at least not when he created that page
<Madpilot> sigh...
<robotgeek> why don't people just cut the crap and edit the wiki
<Madpilot> looks like he's having some login trouble
<Madpilot> PEBCAK?
* robitaille was debating to write an email to explain the concept of teamwork, anyone can edit in the wiki, etc etc, but I don't think I'll even bother after looking at that LP page... 
<robotgeek> he edited the wiki, i think
<Madpilot> yeah, I suspect that lp.net rant is out of date
<Madpilot> his nick appears in RecentChanges
<robitaille> http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Main/DavidTangye
<robitaille> so obviously he knows how to deal with a wiki in general :)
<robotgeek> he edited the wiki article, and it was a job well done. but i can't deal with all the  BS which comes with it
<robitaille> ah...he is a real estate agent.   Maybe that's why he quickly goes into a sales pitch mode (and focus on your customers) in his emails: http://home.iprimus.com.au/DavidTangye/re/index.html
<Madpilot> that might also explain the preoccupation with buzzwords ;)
<robotgeek> heh
<Madpilot> robotgeek, ping
<robotgeek> Madpilot: pong
<Madpilot> got time to mess with cover scripting ideas?
<robotgeek> okay, lets start
<Madpilot> just a sec, looking at some of the translated guides in svn
<Madpilot> bleh - Matt was right, the entities aren't translated - it's all just plain text. Blast.
<robotgeek> so what?
<Madpilot> just grabbing &ubuntu; and &dg-title; and &ubuntu-doc-team; entities would have been easier, wouldn't it?
<robotgeek> Madpilot: i am trying to read the xml file directly
<Madpilot> the trouble is telling the script where to look, though
<Madpilot> for the translated versions of "Ubuntu Documentation Project" and "Desktop Guide"
<robotgeek> Madpilot: arent they in desktopguide/language/ ?
<Madpilot> yes - I'm just trying to find an easy-to-find string we can grab
<robotgeek> Madpilot: what do you need in the xml, <title> 
<Madpilot> title of the actual guide
<robotgeek> so in a particular guide, it would be in desktopguide.xml 
<robotgeek> title tag under book
<Madpilot> robotgeek, gah - thanks - I was looking in all sorts of difficult places. Doh!
<Madpilot> it also looks like "Ubuntu Documentation Team" isn't often translated, actually
<robotgeek> brbm phone
<Madpilot> ...the French translation hasn't even changed "Ubuntu Desktop Guide" into French...
<Madpilot> robitaille, your response to that "I'll take my toys and go home" bit was far, far more diplomatic than mine (which remained unsent, mercifully!) ;)
<jsgotangco> hey
<Madpilot> hi
<robitaille> Madpilot:  yeah, I decided to play the nice email game.    But that's most probably my first and last email in that discussion.  I don't have much time to waste of this 
<jsgotangco> eh?
<jsgotangco> :)
<Madpilot> jsgotangco, the latest round of Mr. "all your docs are wrong" Tangye's emails... :P
<jsgotangco> for some reason robitaille's emails always go to my trash
<jsgotangco> er junk i man
<jsgotangco> no that's too civil!
<jsgotangco> :)
<Madpilot> heh. the CoC is a terrible restraint on a good howling flamewar, isn't it? :P
<robitaille> jsgotangco:  my email are so bad?  Or maybe I don't write enough of them, so your spam catcher doesn't have enough training :)
<jsgotangco> lol i already whitelisted you heh
<robotgeek> Madpilot: back, sorry. phone
<robitaille> Madpilot:  I have a few other mailing list where I can participate in good old flame wars.  
<jsgotangco> he wants more structured flow
<Madpilot> likewise. There's always Usenet if I need a real flamewar. ;)
<jsgotangco> heh
<robitaille> he needs to learn that we are part of teams
<robitaille> and the team is more important than any of us
<robitaille> I'm not sure he seems ready for the concepts
<robitaille> s/the/these
<Madpilot> no, he needs to actually produce some docs, not just talk.
<robitaille> true
<jsgotangco> he should just make a spec
<robitaille> in 3 parts? :)
<jsgotangco> sure
<jsgotangco> hah
<robitaille> but true, most of what he wrote should be a spec
<jsgotangco> would anyone want to contribute to my food product spec
<jsgotangco> heh
<Madpilot> hmm - I need to start baking again ;) it's so much cheaper than raiding the bakery on my coffee breaks
<robitaille> bug 42183   (the last paragraph) :)
<robitaille> https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+bug/42183
<robitaille> that's our target customer
<jsgotangco> that's not even a good bug report
<Madpilot> that's one heck of a target...
<robitaille> I thought it was funny.  But it is a bad one....
<jsgotangco> we get lots of WTF bugs
<jsgotangco> i only focus on xorg
<jsgotangco> its more than enough
<robitaille> My evening are full of bad reports, and need info reports, and "thanks for your report, but..." reports.  The joy of bug triage
<jsgotangco> yeah
<jsgotangco> targetting dupes is much harder even if you dont focus on a subset
<robitaille> this week I'm focussing on old motu bugs.  I have closed quite a few  
<jsgotangco> im going to finish up my commits for edubuntu-doc
<jsgotangco> brb
<robotgeek> Madpilot: http://rafb.net/paste/results/5CnWNf10.html
<robotgeek> maybe i should just grep for the thing
<Madpilot> robotgeek, I saved that as 'covertext', made it executable, and got this: http://paste.ubuntu-nl.org/13111
<robotgeek> Madpilot: yeah, i found that it happens if have not translation, fixing
<Madpilot> which languages does it work in?
<robotgeek> Madpilot: say pt_BR, what do you want?
* robotgeek sips some Grand Marnier
<robotgeek> it says, <title> translated text <phrase> ubuntu </phrase> </title>
<Madpilot> cool, it works in pt_BR - "Guia do Desktop
<Madpilot> "
<robotgeek> Madpilot: just tell me what outputs you need in both cases pt_BR / other
<Madpilot> where we don't have a properly translated title, I'm not sure what we can do, TBH
<Madpilot> beyond get in touch with the translation teams and get them to modify their docs again
<robotgeek> Madpilot: if tehre is no translation, i can make it o/p only Ubuntu Desktop Guide
<Madpilot> yeah, it'll have to just stay as default
<robotgeek> Madpilot: do you want Guia La Desktop + Ubuntu or just Guia La Desktop
<Madpilot> the "Ubuntu 6.06" text isn't going to change - we just need that 2nd line "Desktop Guide"
<robotgeek> okay, i am not seeing what you are seeing. which translation are you loking at?
<Madpilot> I'm not, actually. Just looking at the cover itself.
<Madpilot> Currently we've got three lines of text on it: "Ubuntu 6.06", "Desktop Guide", and "Ubuntu Documentation Project" - but only the 2nd & 3rd need translations
<robotgeek> i am not sure where Ubuntu Documentation Project is translated
<Madpilot> neither am I :(
<robotgeek> however, there is some more useful information in the omf file
<robotgeek> http://rafb.net/paste/results/Ga2Pgb64.html is without that error, still does nothing more useful
<Madpilot> actually, it looks like we use "...Documentation Team" rather than "...Project" in the guides
<robotgeek> Madpilot: stroke of luck, the omf files have translated names :)
<Madpilot> robotgeek, can you grab the <creator> tag stuff from the omf, and then remove the email address & extra stuff to supply the trans. of "Ubuntu Documentation Team"?
<Madpilot> actually, it's "...Project" in the omf files - go figure
<robotgeek> yeah, that should be simple
<Madpilot> recommend a good basic intro to programming book? I *almost* grok this stuff, and wish I did... ;)
<robotgeek> Madpilot: this is all straight outta dive into python
<robotgeek> xml processing chapter :)
<Madpilot> cool, I apt-got that a while ago, might actually read it :)
<robotgeek> almost done, fighting some ascii issues :)
<Madpilot> sweet
<robotgeek> Madpilot: http://rafb.net/paste/results/ZYzKcv85.html
<jsgotangco> hmm i feel so hot inside of me i had too much salsa :/
<robotgeek> Madpilot: http://rafb.net/paste/results/5nu4uv52.html sorry
<rob> hi guys
<robotgeek> hey rob 
<rob> the lulu thing is exciting, and I haven't done all that much lately on the guides :)
<robotgeek> i havent done anything lately too
<Madpilot> robotgeek, got an error this time: http://paste.ubuntu-nl.org/13113
<rob> I've stated throwing a few ideas and some code together for the online docbook editor I was talking about a little while ago
<robotgeek> Madpilot: did you get it from the second link?
<Madpilot> yes
<robotgeek> cause it works for me, can you paste it as text, save it and run it?
<Madpilot> sure, just a sec
<robotgeek> rob: what you doing that in?
<rob> robotgeek, python
<Madpilot> robotgeek, never mind, it worked the 2nd time - I might have been using the wrong pastebin's content
<robotgeek> rob: cool
<robotgeek> Madpilot: i'm trying to get rid of the hardcoding, moment
<rob> in a few weeks time (depending on my spare time) I'll hopefully have something to show everyone
<LaserJock> rob: cool, look forward to it
<jsgotangco> rob: make sure its not in 3 parts
<jsgotangco> heh
<jsgotangco> kidding
<LaserJock> lol
<rob> hehe
<LaserJock> and make sure you never really get to the third part
<jsgotangco> haha
<rob> I plan on showing the code :)
<LaserJock> but talk alot about the third part, even though you never really ever get there
<jsgotangco> then at the end decide its just a waste of time
<rob> lil
<rob> err
<rob> lol
<LaserJock> argh, that guy is quite interesting
<LaserJock> I kept thinking, "You dope, you think I don't think about the user when I write"
<rob> I don't know about 'interesting', defiantly rude though
<LaserJock> like it is a novel concept to try to write for users
<robotgeek> Madpilot: do you also want to me to get rid of the brackets too? ( blah )
<Madpilot> robotgeek, yes
<Madpilot> LaserJock, my target audience is me, circa June 2005, when I'd had Ubuntu on this box about a week :P
<LaserJock> I should just write for sabdfl because he can sponsor me to the dev conference ;-)
<robotgeek> Madpilot: http://rafb.net/paste/results/JKdPCD88.html
<LaserJock> who cares about the users. Obviously we don't  (in the eyes of some apparently)
<jsgotangco> lol
<robotgeek> we dont' care about users since they don't pay us. there, i said it
* LaserJock gasps
<jsgotangco> yeah users are basically PEBKAC
<Madpilot> robotgeek, works nicely (the script, that is) ;)
<mgalvin> *cough*we are apparently chimps in a psychological experiment where dave pokes us to see if he can annoy us*cough*
<robotgeek> Madpilot: i just hacked something together, i am guessing i'll come up with something totally different
<robotgeek> Madpilot: anything else you need?
<manicka> can I quote you on that robotgeek?
<jsgotangco> lol
<LaserJock> mgalvin: hehe, that must be it
<Madpilot> mgalvin, it's working :P
* robotgeek hides from manicka 
<manicka> I pick the best times to drop in...
<manicka> :)
<Madpilot> robotgeek, it's good so far - now we need to get the translated text into the SVGs and get Inkscape to output new PNGs
<robotgeek> Madpilot: you need something for the title also, right?
<Madpilot> robotgeek, yes, we need the title string too
<Madpilot> robotgeek, <title> in the omf file
<robotgeek> Madpilot: done
<Madpilot> nice
<robotgeek> http://rafb.net/paste/results/VR6fHp60.html
<robotgeek> that code is of a hackish quality, but it works 
<Madpilot> yes, works here
<robotgeek> cool, let's move to next step then
<Madpilot> robotgeek, http://www.warbard.ca/temp/Ubuntu_SVG/  <-- SVG files for the cover images
* robotgeek thinks it is going to get very ugly 
<Madpilot> robotgeek, We're interested in the text in the 2nd & 3rd sets of <tspan> tags in the SVGs
<jsgotangco> what are you guys doing?
<Madpilot> jsgotangco, translations on the cover images
<jsgotangco> for lulu?
<Madpilot> jsgotangco, getting the translated strings from our XML, editing the SVG files, then creating PNGs for Lulu
<robotgeek> Madpilot: hmm, i'm having difficult seeing this without folding, one moment
<robotgeek> Madpilot: okay, found it. obviously, this will be different in other documents?
<Madpilot> robotgeek, provided there's only ever three text areas, the two we care about should always be 2nd & 3rd (unless someone totally rebuilds the SVGs, then all bets are off...)
<robotgeek> kk, then we can hardcode without worry (i hope)
<mgalvin> night all
<Madpilot> for now, anyway
<jsgotangco> hey the ubuntu book is now in amazon
<Madpilot> the official one? Yeah, it's been there a few weeks at least
<jsgotangco> it has corey and jonathan at the front
<jsgotangco> i just saw it today
<robitaille> wow...a search for ubuntu in amazon turns out a few to-be-published books I didn't know about 
<jsgotangco> ubuntu unleashed...
<robitaille> not surprising considering the apparent popularity of the distro.
<robitaille> But now that I think about it, I don't think I have ever bought a book about Linux.
<LaserJock> I have a Red Hat 7.2 book
<jsgotangco> i have a core linux book
* jsgotangco is shamed
<robitaille> I got a couple of Unix book way when, but that's about it for purchases
<robitaille> s/way when/way back when
<jsgotangco> i have a nutshell book though which is very very useful
<LaserJock> I have a little emacs booklet
<LaserJock> I don't read it much since I mostly use vim now
<jsgotangco> i only use emacs for emacs-wiki and planner-el
* robitaille actually had a vi versus emacs versus pico with his wife and someone else this afternoon :) 
<robitaille> I use vi most of the time
<LaserJock> heh
<robitaille> she is the emacs type
<LaserJock> I'd get into it with my advisor if he ever found out I was using vim
<robitaille> and we are still married after all these years :)
<robotgeek> Madpilot: dang it, the Kubuntu svn is slightly different
<robotgeek> i'll come up with some code tommorow, too sleepy now
<Madpilot> robotgeek, hmm, tomorrow I'll bash at the SVG, see if we can't get better layout to make the script easier to use...
<robotgeek> Madpilot: http://rafb.net/paste/results/2LQWPj81.html is what i hve till now
<robotgeek> i'll try to get the element names using tagnames, it should be easier that way
<robotgeek> and of course, writing it and renaming the damn thing
<Madpilot> robotgeek, nice work
<robotgeek> Madpilot: don't really bother with the svg, the way i am doing it is not right 
* robotgeek wishes he know python better
<Madpilot> robotgeek, OK, I'll leave it
<robotgeek> cool, cya tommoro
<Madpilot> night
<LaserJock> robotgeek: I'm interested in Python as well. I was thinking for edgy of making some scripts that would be useful for the doc team
<rob> LaserJock, what like?
<LaserJock> xml validator, xml stripper (to plain text) I don't know, I'll have to think of something :-)
<rob> well, as part of my online editor I'm planning on giving the ability to download in plain text
<rob> if you do I might steal it from you :)
<LaserJock> I got a copy of Python Cookbook not to long ago and it was giving me ideas
<Madpilot> we've got a validator already, seems to work fairly well - you could work with Matt East on our convert-to-PDF stuff (not sure which tools he's using for that, actually)
<jsgotangco> make it something that'll give a hotdog sandwhich as output
* jsgotangco hides
<LaserJock> food on the brain?
<rob> there are actually some nice conversion tools available, see xmlto
<rob> converts to all kinds of things (pdf, text, latex etc)
<LaserJock> yeah, I was just thinking maybe we need to pull some things together so new people can just run a script or something
<LaserJock> I don't know, I'll have to look into it more
<jsgotangco> i gotta go
<jsgotangco> see ya
<mdke> morning
<klepas> moin
<mdke> hi klepas 
<mdke> Laser_away: fop can do xml to plain text
<jsgotangco> hey
<kbrooks> hi :-)
<LaserJock> hi kbrooks 
<LaserJock> mdke: around?
<kbrooks> LaserJock: whats up?
<LaserJock> kbrooks: oh, I've always got things to do :-)
<LaserJock> how about yourself
<kbrooks> LaserJock: nothing much. 
<LaserJock> mdke: nevermind, I'll talk to you later
<highvoltage> 0/win 11
<Burgundavia> mdke: your blog says Ubuntu linux, not Ubuntu, a linux based operating system
<Burgundavia> mdke: do I have to "standard name email" you? ;)
<highvoltage> Burgundavia: seems like "Ubuntu Linux" is kind of official, hey :/
<Burgundavia> highvoltage: it is not Ubuntu Linux
<Burgundavia> it is Ubuntu
<Burgundavia> we were Ubuntu Linux in the warty days
<highvoltage> ok, I wasn't quite aware of that, but I'm happy to learn this :)
<highvoltage> Ubuntu is much better than Ubuntu Linux. If it were Ubuntu Linux i would expect it to be Ubuntu GNU/Linux
<Burgundavia> hence why just Ubuntu
<Burgundavia> it also establishes us as a brand seperate from Linux
<highvoltage> also good for when the HURD hits 1.0 :)
<Burgundavia> in 2300?
<highvoltage> well, it's good to plan ahead ;)
<Burgundavia> highvoltage: hurd 1.0 is a little excessive, n'cest pa?
<highvoltage> ok, let's aim for hurd 0.4 then.
<mdke> Burgundavia: my new blog doesn't say it, I can't be bothered to change the old one.
<Burgundavia> mdke: ah, ok
#ubuntu-doc 2006-05-06
<mdke> hi Madpilot 
<Madpilot> hi mdke 
<mdke> you ok?
<Madpilot> of course - busy this weekend
<mdke> good good
<mdke> -> bed
<Madpilot> g'night
<Madpilot> hi robitaille 
<robitaille> Hi Madpilot 
<WaterSevenUb> hey guys... can someone explain me what is the intent of website-index? https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/dapper/+source/ubuntu-docs/+pots/website-index
<LaserJock> WaterSevenUb: I'd ask the list if you don't get an answer here. I don't have a clue
<WaterSevenUb> thank you.
<mgalvin> mdke: the new web site looks good
<mgalvin> i see we seem to share the same love of grey :)
<LaserJock> mgalvin: URL?
<mgalvin> http://mdke.org/
<LaserJock> doh
<mgalvin> hehe
<mgalvin> he bloged about it on planet
<mdke> mgalvin: :) I copied the design from an OSWD template
<jjesse> grey is so boring, use kubuntu blue instead :)
<LaserJock> I like the grey
<LaserJock> jjesse: he's English, he has to be boring ;-)
* LaserJock runs
* mdke nods slowly
<mgalvin> haha :)
<robotgeek> LaserJock: pong
<LaserJock> robotgeek: did I ping?
<robotgeek> LaserJock: sure, scripting is always fun. I'm reading more about unicode, so that I can be more useful
<LaserJock> I was thinking it might be nice to make a single script that helps the doc team out
<robotgeek> i am at a friends place, so network access is intermittent for me (stealing)
<LaserJock> and then maybe we wouldn't have to bug mdke all the time about how to do stuff
<mdke> what did you have in mind?
<LaserJock> I was thinking of the validating, stripping the xml to plain text, maybe pot generation. I have to look into some of it
<LaserJock> the nice thing about doing it in python is that it is very portable
<mdke> well, making pots wouldn't be too hard.
<mdke> why stripping to plain text?
<LaserJock> cause I saw it was like 3 line in my Python Cookbook ;-)
<robotgeek> validating is one command anyways, converting to pot is also one command
<mdke> well, we have a validation script that works well.
<mdke> and we've got those scripts for processing translations
<robotgeek> i've been putting some effort into learning what unicode is all about :)
<robotgeek> hopefully, today i will finish the svg generation script
<LaserJock> I mean, for sure I'll have to think of some better examples, but validating (and checking for well formmedness) is very easy with python
<mdke> LaserJock: you don't like our validation script?
<LaserJock> mdke: it's not that. I was thinking of just putting everything together into a single script
<mdke> the problem is, so far we're talking about totally different functions, so you generally wouldn't want to run them together
<mdke> and the translation scripts call the validation script now 
<LaserJock> why not? something like "docscript validate" validates and "docscript translate" would do the translations
<LaserJock> I'll have to see if I can make a mockup or something
<robotgeek> very easy with bash too :)
<LaserJock> I probably won't have anything before dapper is out
<LaserJock> robotgeek: yes, but my point is portability. I guess that isn't an issue for you guys
<mdke> ./validate.sh validates, and translate.sh does the translations, i am not seeing the difference yet
<LaserJock> I work from OS X and Windows all the time
<robotgeek> ah, okay. cygwin not work?
<robotgeek> OS X should not be an issue
<LaserJock> robotgeek: I'm not a big cygwin fan
<LaserJock> and OS X has it's issues
<robotgeek> subprocess.popen
<LaserJock> all I'm saying is that I'd like to see if I could improve upon what we currently have
<LaserJock> robotgeek: pyxml
<robotgeek> LaserJock: you want to implement what in pyxml? validation?
<LaserJock> robotgeek: yeah, it is like 2 lines
<robotgeek> really. hmm
<LaserJock> ok, so let me list some of the things for XML from the python cookbook.
<robotgeek> is that book online? :)
<LaserJock> checking XML well-formedness, counting tags, extracting text, autodetectinl XML encoding,  validating, filtering elements and attributes belonging to a given namespace
<LaserJock> robotgeek: I don't think so, I bought it from Barnes & Noble
<LaserJock> I don't know, I was just impressed and thought that perhaps some stuff would be usefull to the doc team
<LaserJock> It isn't even a brain dump at this point ;-)
* robotgeek sees safari bookshelf, access univ network
<robotgeek> cool, i'll look thru it. 
<robotgeek> anyways, i gotta run now. work a bit on the svg thing so that i can show madpilot too
<LaserJock> mdke: is the pdf of the lulu book availaible?
<LaserJock> why hello Bluekuja ;-)
<cbx33> good evening
<Bluekuja> hey laserjock :)
<cbx33> hi Bluekuja LaserJock 
<LaserJock> are you guys interested in creating documenation to ship with Edubuntu?
<cbx33> we are indeed
<cbx33> tis why we are here LaserJock :p
<LaserJock> ok, so you might start by checking out the doc teams svn repo and learning some of the tools
<cbx33> will do
<LaserJock> do either of you know Docbook XML?
<cbx33> yes
<Bluekuja> yep, mdke told me about it
<cbx33> I used it for creating a man page for LTSP
<LaserJock> ok, so https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/GettingStarted should get you started
<cbx33> thank you
<LaserJock> I've got a meeting for about 30-45 min, but I'll be back if you need more info
<Bluekuja> ok thank you very much jordan
<Bluekuja> mdke: when you have a minute, ping me i have to show you something
<mdke> LaserJock: http://mdke.org/ubuntu/lulu
<mdke> Bluekuja: yes
<LaserJock> mdke: ah thanks.
<cbx33> hi mdke 
<mdke> hi cbx33 
<LaserJock> mdke: cbx33 and Bluekuja are interested in writing docs for Edubuntu so I suggested they come over to the doc team
<LaserJock> mdke: they are currently working (I'm helping a little bit) on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/EdubuntuSchoolAdvocacy/
<cbx33> we're hoping to have a solid draft by thursday
<cbx33> which I will then be converting into DocBook format
<mdke> cool
<mdke> You might want to talk to a few others about it, because there are various groups working on edubuntu documentation, I think
<cbx33> take a look and if you have any feedback it'd be greatfully received
<cbx33> yes there are
<cbx33> our final aim for this is to produce a printed pamphlet
<cbx33> that can be sent out to schools to try to raise ubuntu/edubuntu awareness
<mdke> ok. I don't have the time to take a serious look at it, but send it to the mailing list and I'm sure loads of people will take a look.
<mdke> looks like a cool idea
<cbx33> excellent thank you mdke 
<WaterSevenUb> mdke,around? Did you see my question in the backlog about website-index?
#ubuntu-doc 2006-05-07
<mdke> WaterSevenUb: yes. Did you see my email about it on rosetta-users?
* mdke pities the subscribers to ubuntu-doc-commits
<LaserJock> mdke: bah, I just dump u-d-c to a folder ;-)
<WaterSevenUb> mdke, aah, great ;) thx. It's amazing how a thing reaches rosetta and after a few minutes there are already dozens of translations :)
<mdke> WaterSevenUb: have people been translating that template?
<mdke> LaserJock: you still have to download it >_M
<mdke> hmm, interesting smiley
<WaterSevenUb> https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/dapper/+source/ubuntu-docs/+pots/website-index/
<WaterSevenUb> according to this, there editions today so it seems so
<WaterSevenUb> -there are editions-
<mdke> oh well.
<WaterSevenUb> :)
<WaterSevenUb> have a good night.
<mdke> you too
<LaserJock> mdke: uni lines are good for that sort of thing :-)
<mdke> oh yeah, can imagine
<LaserJock> mdke: do you think I should fix mistakes that I found in the book
<mdke> LaserJock: if they are significant, definitely. sooner the better
<mgalvin> LaserJock: did you ever happen to take a pic of the lulu book?
* mgalvin was just curious
<LaserJock> mgalvin: yes, though it is a bit of a story
<LaserJock> mgalvin: I took a picture of the cover and I was going to scan some of the pages to show margins, etc.
<LaserJock> but I haven't had a chance to set up  scanning or my digital camera in Ubuntu yet
<mgalvin> ah
<LaserJock> and my Windows XP partition was having a Activation problem since I swapped out motherboards
<LaserJock> so I ended up calling MS (ugghhh) and got XP activated again
<mgalvin> my camera "just works" when i plug it in
* mgalvin swears at XP
<mgalvin> that sucks
<LaserJock> but I also had a lot  of house projects to do. I had to put in new flooring and a new dishwasher last night
<mgalvin> i hear that!
<mgalvin> no worries...
<LaserJock> sooo, hopefully I'll have the pics up for you guys soon. I am working on it
<mgalvin> was just wondering, no rush or anything
<mgalvin> cool
<LaserJock> it is actually bigger than I thought it would be
<mgalvin> how many pages?
<LaserJock> I would say it could go 6x9 except the width is nice for code (lots of that in the packaging guide) and it might be easier on the eyes to have more text/line
<LaserJock> mgalvin: 72 including GPL license
<LaserJock> GPL is 9 pages
<LaserJock> but the printing looks nice. The only real problem is those admon icons
<LaserJock> I couldn't even tell what they were
<mgalvin> ah, there must be some better ones around we could use
<LaserJock> I think it might be just a dpi issue
<mgalvin> maybe even the ones in dive into python
<mgalvin> true
<mdke> I need to figure out how resolution works on these pdfs
<mdke> it's a bit complicated, hopefully we'll figure it out
<LaserJock> mdke: it sure seems like the conversion to pdf is much more difficult than it should be
<mdke> yes. It's fairly annoying
<mdke> that last commit message is the amount of new translations on the packaging guide
<LaserJock> wow, nice
<LaserJock> umm, so what happens to incomplete translations?
<LaserJock> do we just ship what has been done and the rest of it is in English?
<mdke> yes
<LaserJock> that has got to look odd :-)
<mdke> yes, it probably does
<LaserJock> hmm, I would have thought German would have been farther along
<LaserJock> mdke: have you seen any other ways of making pdfs other than fop?
<LaserJock> or is it just the standard
<mdke> I haven't really investigated, tbh
<mdke> there are a few others, nothing really very well developed, apart from fop, I think
<mdke> fop is really quite good.
<LaserJock> it's just a matter of learning it enough to tweak it right?
<mdke> yeah, seems to be
<mdke> there is quite a lot of xsl to be done, and some fop configuration
<LaserJock> mdke: are those in the repo or on doc.ubuntu.com?
<mdke> in branches/dapper/libs/pdf
<LaserJock> hmm, that does look like quite a bit of work
<mdke> it's not so bad. the xsl is pretty similar to the xsl we use for building html
<LaserJock> ah, well I haven't done any xsl work yet so it looks pretty complicated to me :-)
<LaserJock> I'm reading this article on the science of scientific writing, it has some pretty useful things about doc writing
<LaserJock> I can already see things I can apply to the packaging guide
<mdke> cool
<welshbyte> hello
<LaserJock> hi welshbyte 
<welshbyte> oh, almost forgot i was here. are you interested in minor errors in man pages here or is that a package specific thing?
<LaserJock> welshbyte: that would be a package specific thing.
<welshbyte> okie dokie, thanks :)
<LaserJock> welshbyte: no problem
<jsgotangco> mdke: ping?
<mdke> jsgotangco: hi.
<jsgotangco> mdke: how did you go about with the firefox startpage translations?
<mdke> jsgotangco: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DapperFirefoxStartPageTranslation
<jsgotangco> thanks
<mdke> jsgotangco: why do you ask?
<jsgotangco> mdke: Edubuntu
<mdke> jsgotangco: please don't change anything without speaking to Ian, if you change something you might break them all. He took care of the changes to all derivatives as a result of that
<mdke> ogra is in the loop though
<jsgotangco> I'm not going to break the whole distro again ;)
<jsgotangco> pretty much aware of what Diziet has done though
<mdke> it's unlikely that touching edubuntu-artwork would do that, but i think it is possible
<jsgotangco> we'll take note
<mdke> best is to let ian take care of it himself if you want to change something
<jsgotangco> gotcha
<mdke> no one will understand the system as well as him
<LaserJock> jjesse: ping?
<LaserJock> mdke: are you going to be in Paris?
<mdke> LaserJock: pretty unlikely, tbh.
<Burgwork> nor will I, I just realized
<Burgwork> can't get the time off
<LaserJock> mdke: hmm. I was wondering how many doc people were going to make it
<mdke> gah. No docteam, no party
<LaserJock> I see that jjesse applied for sponsorship
<mdke> ah good.
<mdke> I might be able to make a weekend or so, dunno
<LaserJock> I was thinking about it
<Burgwork> ticket prices are about twice what they are in april
<LaserJock> but I'm not sure how long it would take to know if I was sponsored. I can't make it if I'm not.
<LaserJock> I think I might hold off for another time when more doc people can go. I'd really like to meet you guys.
<Burgwork> I will defintely be at the edgy+1 conference
<Burgwork> better time of the year for me, and much cheaper
<LaserJock> how are doc specs going to be handled? I really wasn't around much for UBZ
<mdke> LaserJock: they kinda get worked on in a non-conference specific sort of way
<mdke> but we didn't do formal specs for documents really
<Burgwork> we have some for dapper that should be dealt with
<jjesse> i would like to come the confrence
<jjesse> didn't we at one time talk about having some form of doc team confrence call or something like that?
<Burgwork> yes we did
<LaserJock> doc sprints
<jjesse> did that ever happen?
<Burgwork> no
<Burgwork> lack of time
<LaserJock> we could at least have a series of doc team meetings where more people show up
<mdke> yes, we could do some irc sprints
<mdke> weekends would probably work better, if they weren't too frequent
<LaserJock> well, I'm just thinking we might need something so that we have a unified idea of what we want to do with edgy and who is going to work on what, etc.
<mdke> yep, absolutely.
<Burgwork> we are doing quite well at getting that, I think
<mdke> yes, this release was really good
<LaserJock> yeah, I think the jump from Breezy docs to Dapper docs has been pretty awesome
<mdke> immensely good.
<mdke> I think because the team works really well together
<LaserJock> I agree, people just get in there an start helping. Very few arguments or problems
<mdke> not like the old days ;)
<LaserJock> well, I wasn't around for the old days, but one only has to look at debian-devel or ubuntu-devel for some examples of problems :-)
<Burgwork> mdke, ah, but I liked the bad old days ;)
* Burgwork notes a direct correlation between people getting stuff done and his (lack of) work
<mdke> are you saying you used to do more work?
<Burgwork> lol
<mdke> you've done a hell of a lot on the wiki in this release cycle, anyways
<Burgwork> yes, but I did more for the shipped docs last cycle
* mdke searches his memory
<LaserJock> I think the wiki work is very difficult
<LaserJock> more social problems there
<Burgwork> mdke, jeff schering and I did a great deal of copyediting last cycle
* mdke remembers the quick guide
<mdke> tour*
<mdke> my brain takes a while to start ticking
<LaserJock> hi theCore 
<theCore> hi LaserJock
<theCore> I made some cleaning chores for the PG, btw
<LaserJock> cool
<theCore> I started that, last night
<theCore> I done 44% of basic.xml
<LaserJock> theCore: CC meeting right now in #ubuntu-meeting if you want to see some people get grilled :-)
<theCore> oh
<theCore> LaserJock: grilled?
<LaserJock> theCore: questioned intensely
<theCore> LaserJock: oh, new member nominations ...
<theCore> LaserJock: does the repository is still frozen?
<theCore> LaserJock: or a new branch has been opened?
<LaserJock> theCore: there is a branch for dapper now
<LaserJock> mdke: I really don't understand the problem, my understanding is you have to be a member to become a MOTU or a core-dev anyway. The only problem would be for Canonical employees, right?
<mdke> LaserJock: the problem is that currently the TB isn't enforcing that rule
<LaserJock> ?
<mdke> i.e. you don't have to be a member to become a MOTU or core-dev
<LaserJock> I've heard them say that over and over
<LaserJock> it wasn't always the case
<mdke> at the last meeting, 2 out of the 3 candidates considered weren't members.
<LaserJock> what? that is really odd
<mdke> mdz said it was because of difficulties with timing between the various meetings
<LaserJock> hmm
<LaserJock> I see
<theCore> IMHO, all the membership thing is useless ...
<Burgwork> theCore, why do you say that?
<theCore> Burgwork: it puts an unnecessary barrier for the new developers
<LaserJock> why is it unnecessary?
<Burgwork> theCore, membership is not required to participate
<Burgwork> entry level is very low
<Burgwork> try becoming a DD
<mdke> membership is a fundamental part of the community 
<theCore> still, I can't see why we need it
<LaserJock> theCore: to keep quality up
<theCore> Burgwork: that's probably why they get slow releases cycles
<Burgwork> theCore, they are two seperate issues, only connecting by both being problems of debian
<theCore> LaserJock: version control is enough
<Burgwork> long release cycles have to do with nobody wanting to do the hard and unfun work of release management
<LaserJock> theCore: not when it comes to packaing
<Burgwork> theCore, membership serves a great many useful functions, and has a very low barrier
<theCore> maybe ...
<Burgwork> it provides a clear goal for new people to go for and helps bring out stronger community, by celebrating sucess
<LaserJock> +1
<mdke> it's absolutely central to the community, which is central to Ubuntu
<Burgwork> the goverence structure also provides for clear places to seek resolution of conflict, as well as transparency
<theCore> LaserJock: the repository isn't under version control?
<LaserJock> theCore: no
<theCore> bizzare ...
<LaserJock> theCore: a person who has upload rights, esentiall has root access to every Ubuntu box
<LaserJock> that is not something to be taken lightly
<LaserJock> and give to any random person
<LaserJock> the same with our docs, we could easily have people defacing our docs and causing all kinds of problems
<LaserJock> the bar is really set low, prove that you are a team player and you want to help
<theCore> LaserJock: that' what Version Control is for ;)
<LaserJock> no, it isn't
<LaserJock> version control is for people or teams to keep track of their work, not everybody elses random commits
<LaserJock> can you imagine how much work it would be for us to have to go over *every* commit to the svn repo and see if we need to revert stuff?
<theCore> well, Linux and Gnome use this way, if I remember
<mdke> no, Gnome limits commit access
<mdke> only very special people get cvs accounts
<dsas> and Linux uses git, so Linus only pulls patches that have been reviewed, tested and verified by others.
<theCore> hmm ... then maybe I'm all wrong 
<dsas> There has to be some form of meritocracy, it's just whether or not it's extremely formal (like Debian), or informal like the kernel hackers.
<LaserJock> well, I don't know that your all wrong. I agree that some times there is too much getting in the way of people contributing, but I do think Ubuntu has done a really good job of keeping that to a minimum
<LaserJock> it is really fairly easy and straight forward to become an Ubuntu member. You just have to work on Ubuntu for a while.
<theCore> however, I think we could have a -experimental branch of Ubuntu, with a free for all style of development like the Wiki. Then, commit the nice things to the main branch
<mdke> heh
<crimsun> oh my, that would suck. Yes, suck.
<theCore> why so?
<mdke> theCore: key to Ubuntu's success is its close sense of community
<crimsun> imagine n people clobbering each other over their favorite commits.
<LaserJock> theCore: people can already send their stuff to REVU
<crimsun> and in turn, REVU is well, reviewed by us
<LaserJock> I mean, really the bar is pretty low, it just sometimes takes time because it takes a lot of manpower to run a distro
<theCore> Oh right ... I always forget about REVU
<theCore> is it possible to add REVU in /etc/apt/source.list ?
<LaserJock> REVU isn't a repo, yet
<LaserJock> theCore: you can send your source package and then MOTUs can review and give comments
<LaserJock> and then if you get 2 MOTUs to approve of your package it gets uploaded
#ubuntu-doc 2007-04-30
<sladen> nixternal: I have been an Ubuntu member since XX-YY
<nixternal> huh?
<sladen> nixternal: and belong to several teams (AA, BB, CC, DD) within the Ubuntu community
<sladen> nixternal: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/RichardJohnson/OpenWeekDocTeamNotes  you asked for comments
<nixternal> oh, hehe, ya that has already come and gone
<sladen> good good, was it fun?
<nixternal> ya, actually it was
<nixternal> it went good
<XiXaQ> hmm, isn't documentation for 7.04 ready?
<mpt> XiXaQ, yes, but not on the Web site
<mpt> I don't know what the problem is though
<mpt> other than "nobody has done it", of course -- I don't know what "it" is exactly
<mdke_> mpt: "it" is building the docs as html and uploading them to the website. i've now done the former and am waiting for the sysadmins/newz to do the latter
<mdke_> it took a while because all the internal links (ghelp) don't work as html, I had to replace them
<mpt> ah, cool
<mpt> Did you have to do that manually, or is there a script for it?
<mdke_> a rather ugly script
<mdke_> I'm not very good with scripts
<mpt> is the script in the repo?
<mdke_> https://docteam.ubuntu.com/repos/branches/feisty/ubuntu/fix-urls.sh
<mpt> ok
<mdke_> pretty interesting post by phil bull to the list
* mdke_ senses our next 6 month long project
<Madpilot> "beat the wiki(s) into sanity"?
<mdke_> Madpilot: hmm, put like that it sounds like more of a 6 year project
<Madpilot> mdke_, first thing we should do is move the rest of the hardware stuff over to huc/c where it belongs - the big pages of printer compatibility, and such
<Madpilot> currently, the basics are on wuc, but most of the detailed info is over on huc/c
<mdke_> that's true
<mdke_> we should probably work on updating our wiki software too
<mdke_> we're god knows how many releases behind
<Madpilot> right now is probably the least-worst time to really poke the Ubuntu sysadmins for something like that - it's immediately post-release
<mdke_> well, they are still swamped, but I will poke for all I'm worth
<mdke_> the problem is that someone needs to be allocated to update the patch to make launchpad talk to moin
<mdke_> maybe if I get on the CC I will try and pester Mark/elmo about it
<mdke_> and if I don't... I will pester them anyway
<Madpilot> heh
<Madpilot> we might wind up really stacking the CC w/ DocTeam members :)
<mdke_> yeah. To be honest, I'd be quite surprised if anyone is actually rejected. A majority of approving votes isn't that much to ask
<mdke_> still, you never know
<XiXaQ> can someone give me a url to the docs for feisty?
<nixternal> XiXaQ: I don't believe there is a URL just yet for help.ubuntu.com for HTML docs
<nixternal> https://docteam.ubuntu.com/repos/branches is the repository where you will see the feisty branch
<XiXaQ> thanks.
<nixternal> no problem
<l3on_> ciao
<philwyett> After my diff has been stripped off the email I sent today. Is the preferred method for patch submission copy n' paste into a mail to the list or pastebin it and give the link in the mail to the list?
<nixternal> philwyett: your patch is there
<nixternal> I looked at it
<nixternal> wanted to know, is that for Ubuntu docs or Kubuntu docs?
<philwyett> Ubuntu
<nixternal> OK, when mdke gets some time he will look at it and upload if it is good
<philwyett> nixternal: Ah... sorry, I checked the archive and it appeared to be stripped.
<nixternal> but you attached it correctly
<nixternal> ya, the html archive strips all attachments
<philwyett> Good to know
<nixternal> hehe, I kind of figured that is what you were looking at when you said it was stripped
<philwyett> :-)
#ubuntu-doc 2007-05-01
<mdke> https://help.ubuntu.com/7.04/ now exists
<mdke> let me know if you find any bugs
<bdmurray> mdke: both links at this page are broken https://help.ubuntu.com/7.04/newtoubuntu/C/ln-id2524122.html
<mdke> oh yeah, that.
<mdke> totally forgot :(
<mdke> thanks bdmurray
<bdmurray> incidentally all the copyright stuff doesn't have 2007
<bdmurray> using the command line link is broken at https://help.ubuntu.com/7.04/advanced-topics/C/index.html
<mdke> grr
<bdmurray> sorry :(
<mdke> as are the rest on that page too
<bdmurray> yeah
<bdmurray> I'll go away now
<mdke> nope, more the merry
<mdke> hilight me though, I'll sleep
<vbabiy> hey guys any idea when we will have 7.0.4 docs
<mdke> does anyone know what is wrong with these two lines?
<mdke>  	sed -i ../build/ubuntu/$y/C/*.html -e "s#.\./\.\./\.\./common/C/contributors\.xml#../../common/C/contributors.html#g"
<mdke>  	sed -i ../build/ubuntu/$y/C/*.html -e "s#/usr/share/ubuntu-docs/common/C/ccbysa\.xml#../../common/C/ccbysa.html#g"
<mdke> they give me:
<mdke> sed: -e expression #1, char 51: unterminated `s' command
<mdke> damn, I'm so thick
<jussi01> Hello all, I hope I am in the right place for this, but could someone tell me if it is ok to have "all rights reserved" written after the copy right for a program to be inserted into universe?
<mdke> jussi01: you need #ubuntu-motu, but I think the answer is likely to be "no"
<jussi01> okies, thanks
<nixternal> mdke: use ' ' instead of " "
<gnrfan> hi everyone
<gnrfan> I was wondering why accessing the wiki over HTTPS is set to be mandatory?
<gnrfan> I for example have HTTPS blocked as a whole at work and can't access the wiki site
<mdke> gnrfan: because it involves login authentication and requires sending passwords
<gnrfan> mdke: but what about just reading the pages anonimously
<gnrfan> mdke: you can't do even that
<gnrfan> mdke: all the auth links should be over https I agree.. but what about plain reading the content?
<mdke> gnrfan: I don't think there is a way to distinguish using this software. You can investigate if it interests you, the software is MoinMoin
<mdke> if you find a way, please file a bug on the ubuntu-website product
* mdke beds
#ubuntu-doc 2007-05-02
<Burgundavia> https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/ubuntu-planet-editorial-policy
<Burgundavia> mdke: &
<Burgundavia> ^
<tonyyarusso> nice
<nixternal> Burgundavia: good deal on the planet spec. Why they made a deal out of something the entire blogosphere was blogging is beyond me, plus yesterday on CNBC they talked about an official release by Dell concerning the topic anyways
<Burgundavia> nixternal: corporate embargo was the issue
<nixternal> truthfully the issue was null, except in one case I feel where the actual employee blogged about it
<nixternal> he should have known better
<tonyyarusso> I think he honestly thought it had been okayd already
<nixternal> very well could have been, but what happened today really irritated me as well as many others
<tonyyarusso> yup
<nixternal> that is why I have stayed off the planet all day today and yesterday, contemplating
<tonyyarusso> I just re-planetified my post on the topic
<nixternal> so I noticed
<nixternal> I think you and Jerome were the first 2 I heard about being censored
<Burgundavia> tonyyarusso self censored
<nixternal> ahh
<tonyyarusso> halfway
<tonyyarusso> I made it not show on planet, but did not remove my post as some did
<nixternal> trying to explain to people that this was in fact a big deal for Linux in the "CONSUMER" market has been a pain
<Burgundavia> well, Dell is really playing it down
<Burgundavia> their blog talks about previous offerings
<Burgundavia> dell.com hs nothing
<nixternal> granted you were always able to purchase Red Hate, SUSE, and at one time VA Linux on Dell equipment, none of them were consumer
<nixternal> Red hate ey, hat that is
<nixternal> I hope these new laptops they do will be cheaper than their current offerings, otherwise it won't go to far outside of our world
<nixternal> HP/Compaq tried it a few years back and never lowered their prices
<nixternal> so that little deal flopped
<Burgundavia> according to dell they will be
<tonyyarusso> Oh?
<nixternal> granted there has been a lot of changes since then as well
* tonyyarusso hadn't seen that yet
<nixternal> I sure hope so, however it might not be enough for me to purchase one just yet until Dell (Michael Dell) can get the company straightened back out
<nixternal> which I sure hope he does
<nixternal> before he left Dell was untouchable as they had great hardware, prices, and support
<nixternal> he took that break and all hell broke loose
<nixternal> HP/Compaq still has the deal that allows you to deny the EULA and get some cash back, that is why I purchased this lappy
<nixternal> I wanted either an IBM or a Dell, but neither would work with me
<nixternal> Dell offered the N series with subpar hardware at IBM prices, and IBM, well they have IBM prices :)
<ubotu> New bug: #111686 in xubuntu-docs (main) "no sound" [Undecided,Unconfirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/111686
<crimsun> uh, xubuntu-docs?
<crimsun> ...
<crimsun> hmm, where is that confounded git branch?
<mdke> morning
<Burgundavia> morening mdke
<Burgundavia> seems the world is right again
<mdke> jolly good
* mdke kicks CIA-27 
<CIA-27> ow
<shirish> guys I made a stupid wiki pagename, now I want to change it or delete the page so can start afresh, can anybody tell me how to go about it?
<hauks> jadda
<ubotu> New bug: #111775 in ubuntu-doc "sabayon has a very thin man page " [Undecided,Unconfirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/111775
<ubotu> New bug: #111772 in ubuntu-doc "very superficial info. on fsck" [Undecided,Unconfirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/111772
<mdke> last chance for reviewing https://help.ubuntu.com/7.04 - any problems please let me know
#ubuntu-doc 2007-05-03
<bhuvan> mdke, it looks good to me
<mdke> cool
<mdke> bhuvan: btw, our svn bot has been silent recently, do you fancy investigating?
<bhuvan> i'll check
<mdke> thanks
<mdke> it's coincided with svn being a bit slow in responding
<bhuvan> oh ok
<bhuvan> was there any upgrade recently in docteam.ubuntu.com server?
<mdke> no idea, I'm afraid
<bhuvan> ok
* mdke mornings
<Burgundavia> morning mdke, glatzor
<Madpilot> morning
<Madpilot> all two minutes of it, here
<glatzor> morning Burgundavia
<popey> looks like doc.ubuntu.com is down
<bhuvan> mdke: looks like the problem is in docteam.ubuntu.com; the commit message does not reach cia. the last one was on apr 22. http://cia.vc/stats/project/Ubuntu%20Documentation
<Admiral_Chicago> nixternal: can you please commit the patch on Bug #110553
<ubotu> Launchpad bug 110553 in kubuntu-docs "Spelling mistakes in file network/C/network.xml" [Undecided,In progress]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/110553
<nixternal> bhuvan: did you notice your commit to the svn server taking forever?
<bhuvan> nixternal: yes
<nixternal> k, took a few minutes to upload Admiral_Chicago's little patch
<nixternal> Freddy, I took that package over so when I create the new package it will be easy for me to locate
#ubuntu-doc 2007-05-04
<Admiral_Chicago> sounds good
<mdke> bhuvan/nixternal: I'll report it to the sysadmins
<mdke> mpt: seems that search.ubuntu.com isn't working? https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/112002
<ubotu> Launchpad bug 112002 in yelp "Wrong url for the online search." [Medium,Confirmed] 
<mdke> man there are a lot of applicants for ubuntu-doc who have never posted to the list
<Madpilot> heh. I'm an admin for ubuntu-wiki, we get a surprising number of people who've never edited the wiki applying...
<Madpilot> ... we also have a wiki contributor with the username of "penis". How charming.
<Burgundavia> indeed
<mdke> awesome
<Madpilot> charming nickname or not, 'penis' seems to do basically decent editing (see RecentChanges in huc/c)
<mpt> mdke, that's not something I know or can do anything about, unfortunately
<mpt> ping newz2000 when you see him
<nixternal> mdke or mpt: any idea on who is in charge of the mailing lists overall and/or the servers they run on?
<nixternal> it seems their spamassasin or whatever they use is broken
<nixternal> we are getting 40+ bogus posts almost instantly on the doc and marketing mailing lists daily
<mpt> nixternal, the Canonical sysadmins I guess
<mpt> hmm, they used to have a Freenode channel but no longer seem to
<mpt> I don't have any messages to ubuntu-doc@ in my Junk folder
<nixternal> the moderator messages come with about 40 emails to approve/deny
<mpt> ah, for the moderator
<mpt> I don't know how people are supposed to report problems like that
<mpt> I'll talk to jono and/or the sysadmins about it
<ubotu> New bug: #49675 in ubuntu-doc "wrong command line in server guide (mysql)" [Undecided,Fix released]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/49675
<mdke> nixternal: mailman@lists.ubuntu.com. I've spoken to elmo about the spam before, he's said there is nothing more that can be done
<nixternal> that stinks
<mdke> I've noticed the spam on my lists going up a lot recently too
<nixternal> Docs and Marketing are insane, and Chicago isn't far behind
<nixternal> KDE, we get may 10 a week
<nixternal> s/may/maybe
#ubuntu-doc 2007-05-05
<mdke> nixternal: I filed a ticket about the spam, will let you know if they can do anything more
<Madpilot> mdke, wikispam again?
<mdke> Madpilot: mailing list spam
<ubotu> New bug: #112619 in ubuntu-doc "Packaging guide refers to debuild instead of dpkg-buildpackage" [Undecided,Unconfirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/112619
<nixternal> mdke: cool, thanks
<Kemurii> hi, I'd like to report a 'bug' in community/OpenLDAPServer, I just file a bug on https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/+filebug ?
<Kemurii> ah, well..  the step that says to remove the current data is wrong: if you do that, you can't start slapd anymore. I think more correct is to run dpkg-reconfigure slapd to get a clean tree
<Kemurii> the problem is that the cn=admin,dc=example,dc=com is removed, which gives problems
<Kemurii> adding it to the initial LDIF is also a solution, but I think it's better to go via dpkg-reconfigure
<Kemurii> blast, I'll report it as bug.. otherwise I can't sleep
<Kemurii> Bug #112663 :)
<ubotu> Launchpad bug 112663 in openldap2.3 "Community docs for OpenLDAPServer remove the rootdn from tree" [Undecided,Unconfirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/112663
<Kemurii> ah, there we go :P
#ubuntu-doc 2007-05-06
<willvdl> nixternal, ping
<nixternal> willvdl: pong
<willvdl> hey there
<nixternal> hola
<nixternal> :)
<willvdl> : trying to catch up on some doc team stuff
<willvdl> and wondering about the discussions around docs going on wiki vs docbook
<willvdl> is the plan to move TBH doc submission onto the wiki as we go forward?
<nixternal> not that I know of, but that could always change
<nixternal> mdke would be a better person to ask for that one though
<willvdl> cool, thanks. got a BoF coming up for edubuntu docs
<willvdl> and jsut want to make sure I'm not talking rubbish
<nixternal> when is that?
<nixternal> is it going to be in conference at all where I can join with voip?
<willvdl> still needs to be scheduled
<nixternal> ahh, OK, if possible let me know a day in advanced since there is a 7hr time difference. that way there if it is super early, I can set my alarm for it
<willvdl> http://people.ubuntu.com/~cjwatson/uds-sevilla/  will have the scheduled (updated each day)
<nixternal> I will have to start waking up early then, which means I might be able to catch the last 3 hours ever day
<willvdl> https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/edubuntu-doc-roadmap-review  is the spec page for UDS
* nixternal subscribes
<willvdl> urk, ok. there is a voip thingy as well for audio
<nixternal> I will be able to help out a little more this go round seeing as Kubuntu docs have a good foundation
<willvdl> silly question, but help.u.c has got ubuntu centric TBH docs, where are the kubuntu ones?
<nixternal> hopefully going to be at kubuntu.org eventually
<nixternal> waiting until after UDS to speak with Riddell about it
<willvdl> aha
<willvdl> ok, that's important info
<shirish> can somebody see this https://help.ubuntu.com/community/RestrictedFormats/Flash
<shirish> and tell me why swfdec hasn't been given space there also, there is just mention of swfdec
* mdke goes through several tens of applicants to ubuntu-doc team
<mdke> I think we need to change the team policy
<mdke> it's obviously not clear that we ask people to contribute first
<mdke> shirish: probably because no one has thought of writing it - you should feel free to contribute as you think is appropriate by editing the page
<shirish> mdke: I'm editing it as we speak, don't know whether I'm doing the right thing or not
<mdke> shirish: that's what wikis are about :)
<mdke> hopefully someone will review your work
<mdke> if you are in doubt, email our mailing list to ask
<shirish> mdke: I just did it https://help.ubuntu.com/community/RestrictedFormats/Flash
<shirish> mdke: can u please check, its under free-alternatives, do u think I need to give the standalone versions also or just the plugins is enough ?
<shirish> mdke: btw I'm shirishag75@gmail on the ubuntu-doc mailing list
* shirish awaits mdke's decision/comment
<nixternal_> mdke: how do you think we should go about with applicants and the policy?
<mdke> nixternal_: I think we should add people to the team when we grant them svn access; i.e. move the team to "restricted"... in fact, I've just done that
<mdke> do you think it's a bad idea?
<nixternal_> nope, I always thought you did it that way
<nixternal_> that is a good idea truthfully
<nixternal_> do the accounts have the 2yr expiration as well?
<mdke> shirish: I don't know anything about swfdec but it looks like you did a good job. There is some grammar work that could be done on the page in general though... also, we don't tend to promote aptitude over other package managers, see https://help.ubuntu.com/community/WikiGuide/Style
<shirish> mdke: that reminds me, reject my application for ubuntu-doc, I don't want to be touching any svn stuff, not competant enough
<nixternal_> shirish: that is easy to change though :)
<mdke> nixternal_: no, I think the team doesn't have member expiry
<nixternal_> once you see how easy DocBook/XML and SVN is, you will want to retract that statement :)
<nixternal_> OK, I was just thinking that there are a lot of "stale" names
<mdke> yeah, we should think about that
<mdke> they probably still have svn access too actually
<nixternal_> but I remember the same issue with ubuntu-marketing, and people pitched a fit when they were put in the expired one, which is easy to get renewed
<nixternal_> they were upset they wre put in there when they weren't contributing at all, not even saying hi on the ml or irc
<nixternal_> being on a team is like an ego thing, and people get easily offended when they are removed or put in expiry
<mdke> teams have different dynamics though
<mdke> membership in some teams means simply being interested, which is valuable; other teams though are more restrictive (such as ubuntu-doc) because membership involves privileges
<nixternal_> very true
<nixternal_> and there are names that I know haven't contributed since dapper at least
<shirish> ok re-updated the wiki again https://help.ubuntu.com/community/RestrictedFormats/Flash
<shirish>  I'm trying just to get the free alternative plugins atm, playing .swf with the alternative players should have its own sub-page with perhaps some debugging tips to help the developers ?
<mdke> nixternal_: I'll post to the list about it
<mdke> shirish: probably having them on that page is ok, rather than subpages
<shirish> oh ok, but then that would be a deal for another day
<shirish> mdke: is there any good documentation about this docbook-xml by any chance?
<shirish> are there any easy front-ends for this docbook-xml
<mdke> shirish: have you tried our wiki pages? they are not brilliant but generally it's possible to get an idea of how it works
<mdke> wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam
<shirish> mdke: looked at them, while it does lists lot of stuff it doesn't list the tools that one can use
<shirish> mdke: for e.g. look at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/Projects
<shirish> while at the very end it talks about xml tags but doesn't mention which GUI editor or if any GUI editor is good for this purpose
<mdke> there aren't really any good free gui editors
<mdke> you want https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/Contribute
<shirish> aha, didn't know that
<nixternal_> mdke: what do you use? I use Kate 95% of the time, and vi/emacs the rest
<nixternal_> I heard gEdit was pretty good as well
<nixternal_> the nice thing about Kate is it has XML validation built in, and it is extremely nice when working on KDE docs because it uses system entities when validating as well
<mdke> gedit me
<shirish> gedit as in Gnome Editor or something else?
<nixternal_> yes
<shirish> hmm... I'm betting there are quite a few settings in gedit which would make it a good docbook-xml editor
<mdke> there might be some extensions for it
<shirish> it has both docbook as well as xml syntax highlighting as well as quite a few plugins as well hmm.....
<shirish> ok another query, how are screenies looked upon, is there a way to upload screenshots when explaining something or one just uses some free image-sharing site & link from there ?
<shirish> or moinmoin doesn't have the ability for screenshots ?
<shirish> or has been turned off?
<mdke> you can attach screenshots, see HelpOnActions/AttachFile
* mdke -> bed
* shirish -> bed
#ubuntu-doc 2008-04-28
<testdog> hello
<testdog> Like to install a Edubuntu Classroom Server https://wiki.edubuntu.org/HardyClassroomServer   but it's not really clear if you install LTSP from the Desktop Edition or if you need to install the server edition.
<testdog> Both these pages just say "Get the ISO"
<testdog> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuLTSP/LTSPQuickInstall
<testdog> I know it's called "Classroom Server" so I would assume you need the server edition of Ubuntu to install the Edubuntu Thin client classroom server, but not really sure because it is not specifically stated
<testdog> Brian: do you have any idea about this?
<testdog> I mean Madpilot
<Madpilot> hmm?
<testdog> I want to install Edubuntu Thin client classroom server,
<Madpilot> testdog, #edubuntu is likely your best bet
<testdog> but the docs dont specify if it is necessary to DL the Server or desktop edition
<testdog> k.. yeah no one live in there.
<testdog> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuLTSP/LTSPQuickInstall
<testdog> Says "get the ISO"
<testdog> but not which ISO
<Madpilot> I honestly don't know; haven't ever had anything to do w/ Edu
<testdog> but what about to install Ubuntu LTSP?
<testdog> do you have to install that from the server edition?
<testdog> it's not clear in the docs.
<testdog> Just says you need to download the "alternate CD", but doesnt specify server or desktop edition.
<testdog> I would assume that since it is call the LTSP Classroom server i would need the server edition, but is this correct?
<Madpilot> testdog, if #edubuntu isn't alive, you'd be best off on the Edu mailing list - check through lists.ubuntu.com
<testdog> k, I'll post my question in #edubuntu and wait awhile, and also check the mailing list URL.. thanks
<bodhi_zazen> Hey, quick question
<bodhi_zazen> how to add to an immutable page ?
<bodhi_zazen> How would we feel about adding the Ubuntu DVD MD5SUMS to this page ?
<bodhi_zazen> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuHashes
<bodhi_zazen> The md5sums are listed here:
<bodhi_zazen> http://nginyang.uvt.nl/
<bodhi_zazen> OK, sent out an E-mail then :)
<bodhi_zazen> afk
#ubuntu-doc 2008-04-29
<Madpilot> mdke, nice "don't take your toys and go off in a snit" reminder on -irc. Pity it's needed.
<mdke> Madpilot: yes, hadn't expected that from Dennis
<Madpilot> neither did I, but I haven't been on IRC much the last few months
<mdke> amazing how trolls can still get what they want
<mdke> i.e. to make people angry
<Madpilot> when they're given it, yes. "I'm taking my bots and going home" is giving it to the trolls in a major way
<mdke> spot on
<bhuvan> hi Madpilot
<bhuvan> hi mdke
<Madpilot> hi bhuvan
<mdke> hiya bhuvan
 * mdke -> work :(
<Madpilot> seeya
<osmosis> kind kind of rails configuration is this exactly?  http://doc.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/serverguide/C/ruby-on-rails.html
#ubuntu-doc 2008-04-30
<LaserJock> osmosis: how do you mean?
<osmosis> LaserJock: its just strange, because everyone I talk to about ruby on rails says that is not the right way to do it. So Im trying to figure out why the official documentation recommends that, and what components it is installing exactly.
<LaserJock> osmosis: ah, well maybe that needs to be discussed then
<LaserJock> osmosis: the best way would be to email the ubuntu-doc mailing list
<LaserJock> if something's wrong or there's a better way we want to hear about it :-)
<LaserJock> although there's not a lot on that page, I don't know why it'd be wrong
<osmosis> LaserJock: mostly because the gems package will generate conflicts with apt.
<osmosis> LaserJock: but is there a way to talk to the author of the page to see what he had in mind, or see why he thinks this is the correct way to do the install ?
<LaserJock> osmosis: yes, the mailing list is the best way to get ahold of people
<LaserJock> osmosis: we generally don't recommend gems
<LaserJock> though a lot of people use them
<LaserJock> we generally prefer people install stuff we've packaged
<osmosis> LaserJock: that like using ubuntu and saying you dont recommend apt-get.  Very hard to use rails without using gems.
<LaserJock> no, use apt-get to install rails
<osmosis> LaserJock: how do you get gems later then ?
<LaserJock> why do you need them?
<osmosis> LaserJock: using apt-get essentially disables  gem install
<osmosis> LaserJock: most rails programmers build apps that require gems
<LaserJock> and they can't be installed via apt-get?
<osmosis> LaserJock: in the same way that most ubuntu admins require apt-get.
<LaserJock> like I said, most developers would prefer that people use the software we've packaged up
<LaserJock> though we may need to look more at Ruby specifically as it is pretty common for people to use gems
<osmosis> yup. cool.
<LaserJock> osmosis: so, currently I think the doc is the way it is because we assume people want to install software we've packaged
<LaserJock> whether that is really the case for Ruby may need discussion
<LaserJock> so it'd probably be worth an email :-)
<osmosis> LaserJock: its a bit irronic that the package would exists and not be supported at the same time.  rubygems - package management framework for Ruby libraries/applications
<LaserJock> well
<LaserJock> we actually had a bit of a fight over that
<LaserJock> many developers didn't want to allow it, others did ...
<LaserJock> I don't think apt-get kills gems altogether
<LaserJock> but you probably want to use one or the other as you'd probably end up with multiple versions of libraries and possibly conflicts
<punisher> Hi all!
<punisher> any body here?
<robotgeek> punisher: yes
<punisher> robotgeek: sorry, my english no good
<punisher> I`m russian =)
<melter> how do i create an account to edit the wiki?
<melter> anyone?
<seisen> do you have a launchpad account?
<kirkland> melter: you need a Launchpad.net account
<melter> kirkland, when i click the "create an account" link, i get an error message
<melter> "launchpad.ubuntu.com uses an invalid security certificate."
<melter> "The certificate is only valid for launchpad.net."
<melter> etc....
<kirkland> melter: :-)  that just means that the SSL certificate is self-signed
<kirkland> melter: you should be able to "add an exception"
<melter> ok, i'm not familiar with the new firefox 3 interface
<melter> didn't that used to be a popup?
<kirkland> melter: it did
<kirkland> melter: i'm not a big fan of the new way
<kirkland> melter: too many clicks for my taste :-/
<melter> same here :(
<melter> maybe that's the point, though, to make us really think about it
<melter> what's launchpad?
<kirkland> melter: if you're looking for something to document, that might be a decent little one to start with ;-)
<kirkland> melter: a screen shot or two would do, if there's not already a page in the wiki on it
<melter> kirkland, all i wanted to do was fix a typo
<melter> i got an account, but now the server seems to be down
<melter> are the spelling errors i get from "Check Spelling" only for the page i'm editing?
<melter> can anyone use the "Add checked words to dictionary" button?
<melter> what a rush
<melter> do my changes need to be approved by anyone?
<LaserJock> melter: what page are you editing?
<melter> LaserJock, https://help.ubuntu.com/community/DynamicFirewall
<melter> see https://help.ubuntu.com/community/DynamicFirewall?action=diff&rev2=13&rev1=12
<melter> just typos, but there's a big difference between iptables and iptbales
<LaserJock> melter: yeah, just go ahead and save that kind of stuff
<LaserJock> melter: and thanks for helping out :-)
<melter> np
<melter> does the bread-crumb trail show the hierarchy? it almost seems to be working as a history
<LaserJock> melter: yeah, I believe it's juat a history of where you've been
<LaserJock> melter: the hierarchy is in the URL
<jablko> what is the correct way to link from the ubuntu wiki to an ubuntu package page?
<jablko> is there an "interwiki" macro for that?
<LaserJock> I don't think there is
<LaserJock> where are you wanting to link to? packages.ubuntu.com or launchpad.net?
<jablko> LaserJock: packages.ubuntu.com
<jablko> well, either really
<jablko> i just want the package name in my wiki page to link to something useful...
<LaserJock> I think just go ahead and do a a linkk
<jablko> LaserJock: cool, thanks
<LaserJock> jablko: it would be nice to make sure that it's a generic link though
<LaserJock> not specific to a release so that we don't have to keep updating it for instance
<jablko> totally
#ubuntu-doc 2008-05-01
<dohalloran> hi
<DavidONE> ewfwefwew
<nealmcb> I would think it would help to move https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SpecSpec to be named SpecTemplate so it would show up as an option when creating specs - see e.g. https://wiki.ubuntu.com/HelpOnPageCreation
<ligemeget> hey pimanx, are you ubuntu-doc member too? :)
<kirkland> fyi, https://help.ubuntu.com/community/MetaPackages
<kirkland> there's kind of any ugly comment/question at the bottom of that page
<kirkland> should really be cleaned up
<ligemeget> dammit.. right now I cannot decide whether I should
<ligemeget> a) Jump abound the GNOME doc-boat with Phil, milo and the others and update the docs
<ligemeget> b) Translate the GNOME docs
<ligemeget> c) Translate the ubuntu docs
<ligemeget> d) Remain playing GTA4
<ligemeget> Someone give me some advice!
<Gwaihir> ligemeget: play GT4 for today! :D
<ligemeget> I've been doing that since I woke - I even missed the whole First of May - Workers Protest stuff because I was busy robbing banks!
<Gwaihir> got some spare change for me too?
<Gwaihir> :D
<ligemeget> heh, get your own game!
<ligemeget> Or, if you wanna remain a Ubuntu contributor, don't! ;)
<Gwaihir> nah... I'm still tied to good old adventure games... :)
<ligemeget> Any of them free and working on Linux...?
<Gwaihir> working on Linux yes... not free.. but I still got the CDs or disks
<ligemeget> damn
<ligemeget> I want Fallout so bad right now..
<Gwaihir> uhh... I don't have that one... but that was great...
<ligemeget> Hmm... In another channel I was just suggested doing a mix of c) and d)
<ligemeget> and that sounds like a good idea to me
#ubuntu-doc 2008-05-02
<melter> does stuff like https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CommunityEdgyIdeas ever get removed from the wiki?
<nickellery> ha, usually not
<nickellery> you can nominate that page to be deleted here: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/WikiToDo
<melter> nickellery, thanks
<jjesse> evening
<melter> hello
<nealmcb> I would think it would help to move https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SpecSpec to be named SpecTemplate so it would show up as an option when creating specs - see e.g. https://wiki.ubuntu.com/HelpOnPageCreation   - any objections?
<nealmcb> the server team recommends deleting https://help.ubuntu.com/community/MailScanner as I just noted there - should I go ahead, or put it in some sort of CategoryDeletion or what?
<DougieRichardson> Any one looked at https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/224971
<LaserJock> I'm sure Matthew has had a look
<DougieRichardson> There's not a lot that can be done to restore search rank in google for the wiki
<nixternal> if anyone is able to give the documentation talk for openweek in 30 minutes that would be great
<LaserJock> nixternal: what you're not gonna?
<nixternal> I am currently on about 10 minutes of backup battery power right now
<LaserJock> uh oh
<nixternal> we have been w/o power for most of the day so far...we have had some really bad storms and more coming
<LaserJock> were you scheduled to give the talk?
<nixternal> yes
<LaserJock> did you have any notes or anything?
<nixternal> just a quick q&a as I am willing to bet nobody is going to be around at 21:00 UTC on a Friday
<nixternal> yes, one sec
<nixternal> https://wiki.kubuntu.org/RichardJohnson/OpenWeek/DocTeam
<nixternal> I used that for the last 3 :)
<LaserJock> freaking heck
<nixternal> hehe
<LaserJock> that's a book dude
<nixternal> you don't have to do it of course
<nixternal> just do a quick q&a, I bet no more than 15 minutes
<LaserJock> I usually write like 2 paragraphs and get bored and just wing it
<nixternal> the reason I picked 21:00 UTC on a Friday is because nobody is around :)
<nixternal> it is an easy talk to do then
<nixternal> ok, the battery is beeping...need to get off before it goes all the way dead
<LaserJock> ok, I'll do it
<LaserJock> good luck!
<nixternal> thanks!
#ubuntu-doc 2008-05-03
<Konam> hi
<Konam> I want to know where can I download the documentation for Hardy, I know where it is online but I like to keep the PDF
<bcnaat> I believe that its still a work in progress, not even sure that its available in pdf format
<Konam> bcnaat ok, but where is the page to get it for older versions (so I keep track when the Hardy version come out)
<bcnaat> I'm searching now...
<Konam> bcnaat me too
<bcnaat> https://help.ubuntu.com/6.06/
<bcnaat> looks like the pdf option stops at 6.10 unless its hiding somewhere *frown*
<bcnaat> hardy was released 4/24/08, if that's what you're needing
<dsas> Yeah we stopped producing PDFs when we changed the way we write help to be "topic based" rather than one big guide.
<bcnaat> is there a way to download the whole docbook onto your system in case you don't have internet and need to find an answer?
<dsas> bcnaat: It already is.
<dsas> bcnaat: It's in System and then Help
<bcnaat> duh on me *frown*
<bcnaat> I stay connected all the time and tend to research online for answers
<dsas> heh me too.
<Konam> I think we all do
<Konam> dsas so now the big guide is only on the desktop help but not in only in the ubuntu docs?
<dsas> Konam: I'm not sure I understand your question. We don't produce a big guide as such any more. But all of the ubuntu desktop help we do produce is in the system docs and on help.ubuntu.com
<bcnaat> Konam: yes, everything that you see on the site is actually included in your systems help files.
<Konam> dsas the thing is that I'm looking for the PDF of the ubuntu-server, I don't have such a built in help on the server
<bcnaat> dsas: when the help files are updated, they are included in updates through update manager, correct?
<Konam> here is the online server guide: https://help.ubuntu.com/8.04/serverguide/C/index.html
<dsas> bcnaat: yes
<dsas> Konam: No such thing exists.
<Konam> dsas since I will install the server on a vm I will be able to read the online doc but it will be good to have the PDF availabe
<dsas> sorry, i'm on my way out. bye
<bcnaat> Konam: maybe you could make your own? Here's a link to try http://wiki.docbook.org/topic/DocBookPublishingTools
<DougieRichardson> konam: you could us dblatex from our xml's
<Konam> bcnaat I thought about it but I need a lib to build it for me, you know, like use all the html links and build it, I don't know if that's possible or somethin of the sort
<Konam> DougieRichardson I do it if you tell me how
<DougieRichardson> ok, first install dblatex from the repos
<DougieRichardson> then pull down the doc source from https://code.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-core-doc/
<DougieRichardson> go to the server guide and dblatex filename.xml will create a pdf from the xml
<bcnaat> how do you pull the doc source?
<Konam> DougieRichardson dblatex filename.xml is the command I have to use? that simple?
<DougieRichardson> konam: yes
<DougieRichardson> bcnaat: you will need bzr installed
<DougieRichardson> then follow the commands on https://code.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-core-doc/ubuntu-doc/ubuntu-hardy
<bcnaat> installed it, thanks.
<DougieRichardson> i wont promise it'll be too pretty, lol
<DougieRichardson> it took a fair bit of tweaking with the desktop training project, lol
<Konam> DougieRichardson I'm already there, downloading dblatex, but I have to know if it is a heavy and prolonged process so I know if have to start in at night
<DougieRichardson> it's 33 mb with all deps
<bcnaat> dblatex didn't take long to download/install but the docs are taking a bit
<DougieRichardson> that's bzr for you
<Konam> DougieRichardson it won't be pretty in which sense? I thought that that was the way you built the latest PDF files
<Konam> ?
<DougieRichardson> dblatex is not as flexible with formatting as I would like it to be. It produces good pdf output though
<bcnaat> that should be interesting. I'm still learning how to use wiki
<DougieRichardson> i just tried the server guide and it generates an error - my bad
<DougieRichardson> if you give me till tommorrow i'll sort it out and post a pdf of the current server guide on my webpage for you
<DougieRichardson> it works fine with every other file in there as well!!
<Konam> DougieRichardson ok, I would really appreciate that :)
<DougieRichardson> ok, save you looking it up - http://blog.lynxworks.eu/
<Konam> ok
<DougieRichardson> nickellery: i was just about to email you!
<nickellery> DougieRichardson: hi there
<DougieRichardson> you know your tech patch for games.xml?
<nickellery> yes
<DougieRichardson> there was a spec last year to review games.xml completely
<DougieRichardson> because it's essentially a big list of games
<nickellery> so.. did I do a good or bad thing reviewing it?
<DougieRichardson> no no its a good review
<nickellery> thats good to hear
<nickellery> any suggestions on what to review next?
<DougieRichardson> just wondered if you felt like developing it a bit further
<DougieRichardson> expanding the section on wine/cedega for example
<nickellery> I'm not too experienced with cedega, but I have a little knowledge of WINE
<nickellery> what needs to be expanded about it?
<DougieRichardson> just whatever you think, from the perspective of someone migrating from windows - any ideas, discuss them with the mailing list
<nickellery> alright... do you think that enough games have been mentioned?
<nickellery> Perhaps that can be expanded too
<DougieRichardson> whatever you feel might be an improvement. Nobody took this on as a task for 7.04
<nickellery> Alright, I'll have a look and see what I can come up with
<DougieRichardson> great
<nickellery> how about provided info about all the games with a 4 or 5 star rating that haven't been mentioned yet?
<DougieRichardson> nick: sounds like a good idea
<nickellery> should i put together a summary of my ideas for the mailing list?
<nickellery> Nevermind, I've already sent it out
<nickellery> tell me what you think
<DougieRichardson> ok
<j1mc> is anyone around?
<DougieRichardson> yes
<j1mc> Hi DougieRichardson ... i've squished down the xubuntu-doc structure per mdke's suggestion, and everything is bombing out when i go to validate.
<j1mc> i think it's in the XSL, but i don't really know much about xsl.
<DougieRichardson> what's the first error from the validate
<j1mc> DougieRichardson: good question.  there are so many errors, that i can't even scroll up to the first error to check it out.
<DougieRichardson> lol
<j1mc> and doing a pipe or grep on the validation output doesn't work.
<DougieRichardson> try using the carat
<j1mc> carat?  how so?
<DougieRichardson> i.e. cat `validate.sh filename.sh`
<j1mc> ok
<DougieRichardson> i.e. cat `validate.sh filename.xml` rather
<j1mc> right... brb
<DougieRichardson> ãããã
<DougieRichardson> sorry
<DougieRichardson> wrong screen
<j1mc> DougieRichardson: hm, i'm trying this:  `./validate.sh ../index.xml` > ~/errors.txt
<j1mc> but it is not working
<j1mc> sorry... with "cat" at the front
<DougieRichardson> ok well what's the earliest error you can see?
<j1mc> Validating ../index.xml ...
<j1mc> ../index.xml:5: warning: failed to load external entity "../../libs/global.ent"
<j1mc> ah, i guess it is giving me the first error.
<DougieRichardson> oh wait a minute - you can use the -o filename option to output to a file: try validate.sh -o errors filename.xml
<DougieRichardson> yes that looks like a path error - are you checking the first file in the hierarchy?
<j1mc> DougieRichardson: well, when i correct the path error to have the index.xml file correctly map to the global.ent file, that is when i get so many errors that i can't see all of them.
<j1mc> (when i provide the correct path to all of my .ent files...)
<DougieRichardson> send me your index.xml
<j1mc> sent.
<j1mc> xubuntu docs are a bit weird in that it's not really valid docbook.  we're set up to use xinclude to pull all of the various files together into one big megafile.
<DougieRichardson> i see - give me a second. the kettle just pinged
<j1mc> so individual files won't validate, but everything works if index.xml validates.
<j1mc> if you want to pull down the xubuntu docs - it only takes about a minute.
<j1mc> bzr branch http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-core-doc/ubuntu-doc/xubuntu-intrepid
<DougieRichardson> ok - btw are those identitied meant to be absolute?
<j1mc> "those identified" ... can you explain?
<DougieRichardson> whoops i mean your references to the entities
<j1mc> they were absolute (and they validated) in the hardy docs, so i guess that they are meant to be absolute.
<DougieRichardson> ok - give me a couple of minutes to look it over, fresh eys and all that
<j1mc> thanks, DougieRichardson.  i appreciate your help.
<j1mc> without getting these errors resolved, no one can really proceed to work on other changes to the docs.
<DougieRichardson> i see the problem - it's the references to the entities that are messed up. Has there been a change to the directory structure?
<j1mc> yes
<j1mc> we squished things down per mdke's request/suggestion
<j1mc> the ref's to the entities in the index.xml file?
<DougieRichardson> no all the refs have an extra ../ that they don't need
<j1mc> can you provide a file name that has this problem?
<DougieRichardson> all of them! every section!
<j1mc> ok.... cool.  :)
<j1mc> i will fix them... that, i can handle  :)
<j1mc> thanks, DougieRichardson
<DougieRichardson> no worries
<j1mc> btw, do you speak japanese?  i noticed the hiragana earlier.
<DougieRichardson> i'm learning to but very badly, lol
<DougieRichardson> i was messing about preparing a page on IME for the wiki
<j1mc> ah, ok.  i used to know some, but i'm quite out of practice.
<j1mc> i lived in japan as an exchange student in the summer of 1992.
<j1mc> anyway, thanks again for your help.  i very much appreciate it.
<DougieRichardson> i'm terrible because i used rosetta stone to learn to speak so if things aren't spelt how i hear them i get it wrong
<DougieRichardson> exchange in japan would have been cool
<j1mc> ah... fortunately japanese pronunciation / spelling is usually pretty consistent, at least from what i remember.
<j1mc> have a good day!
<DougieRichardson> cheers
<DougieRichardson> there are also some missing references to gnome menu entries, particularly in windows/glossary.xml
<DougieRichardson> ah i see - were the gnome entities changed to xubuntu entities?
<j1mc> DougieRichardson: i'll have to check that out.  i don't recall off of the top of my head.
<DougieRichardson> i've got the thing to pass validate if you want me to push it
<j1mc> DougieRichardson: sure.  that would be very nice of you.
<DougieRichardson> ok, if you don't mind!
<j1mc> i'll look over your changes, but i'm sure they'll be ok.  if not, it would be easy to change back.
<DougieRichardson> ok mate I've pushed it
<j1mc> thanks, DougieRichardson :)
<DougieRichardson> no worries - i'm off for a coffee, lol
<j1mc> you rock, DougieRichardson.  thanks.
<DougieRichardson> ttfn
<prvul> Hi! I need help regarding wiki, is this the right place?
<nickellery> it might be, whats your question?
<prvul> I am a member of serbian loco team. We want to move on official ubuntu wiki
<prvul> and need some guide for that
<PriceChild> Noticed http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=780216 just want to clarify where to suggest they report it? (Isn't broken in system help)
<LaserJock> PriceChild: file a bug against ubuntu-docs?
<PriceChild> LaserJock: thanks, from the Doc team page mentioned in the topic I figured that was for the package in ubuntu.
<LaserJock> hmm
<LaserJock> it is
<LaserJock> but we build the help.ubuntu.com pages from the same files
<LaserJock> so it's likely a problem there
<LaserJock> PriceChild: I guess better would be to file a bug against the ubuntu-doc project
<LaserJock> https://launchpad.net/ubuntu-doc/+filebug
<PriceChild> LaserJock: thanks very much :) Will post that advice to them and ask to post a link to the bug in the thread to get them involved, and if not will do it myself after a day or so.
#ubuntu-doc 2008-05-04
<hollunder> hi there, I'm writing a little guide for and based on Ubuntu Studio, but accidentally placed it at https://help.ubuntu.com/community/JackQuickStart instead of https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuStudio/JackQuickStart. I just started it, so it shouldn't be a problem to move it. Is there someone who can move it for me?
<bimberi> hollunder: I might still have the privs.  Let me try...
<bimberi> hollunder: There you go.
<hollunder> thanks a lot
<bimberi> yw :)
<ligemeget> Greetings, earthlings.
<ligemeget> Anyone who knows if Philbull uses IRC?
<nixternal> ligemeget: one in a while he shows up here, but it is easier to contact him via email, which he responds rather quickly to
<ligemeget> k, thanks
#ubuntu-doc 2009-04-27
<Taim> How do you handle bugs that come in for community documentation as in bug #367993?
<ubot4> Launchpad bug 367993 in ipsec-tools "nfs howto under ubuntu  has a bug in the Client section" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/367993
<Taim> First, I think the doc is fine, but may need small clarification.
<Taim> Second, it's community doc.  Do I assign it to the doc team?  I don't consider this an issue with the ipsec-tools as currently assigned.
<Taim> Argh.  Nevermind.
<Taim> Somebody already updated it.
<Taim> Though I wouldn't be opposed to debate about why it should be an invalid bug and not handled like other issues.
<bassjack> hello
<bassjack> okay
<bassjack> hello?
<bassjack> i need a driver for a dell dj gen 2 and or what am i supposed to do to get it to work?
<bassjack> i have the original driver disk for the dj but will it work with heron...
<bassjack> can i ask a question?
#ubuntu-doc 2009-04-28
<EagleScreen> hi, i think a wiki can be erroneus
<mdke> evening all
<cody-somerville> Hi
<Rocket2DMn> mdke, i made it :)
<mdke> Rocket2DMn: awesome, right on time
<Rocket2DMn> I assume you have something laid out on how you are going to proceed?
<Rocket2DMn> I'm available to answer questions and whatnot
<mdke> yeah, I am going to paste from some notes
<mdke> then you can chip in where you feel the need, and answer some questions
<Rocket2DMn> ok, do you have your outline online somewhere?
<mdke> Rocket2DMn: no, but I will paste it, hang on
<mdke> http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/160187/ <-- a few gaps which i will fill in by hand
<Rocket2DMn> cool
<mdke> Rocket2DMn: sorry to have sprung that SoD thing on you without notice, it just occurred to me as a good point to do some publicity :)
<Rocket2DMn> its ok
<Rocket2DMn> im finished
<mdke> great
<mdke> good job Rocket2DMn, thanks for picking me up on those things
<mdke> how do you do the whitespace line?
<Rocket2DMn> no problem, good session mdke
<Rocket2DMn> just use a space
<Rocket2DMn> try it out
<mdke>  
<mdke> doh
<mdke> thanks :)
<Rocket2DMn> sure thing
<Rocket2DMn> now i gtg do laundry :(
<ds305> A couple of questions about uploading wiki graphics, if someone can answer.
<mdke> sure
<mdke> we can try :)
<ds305> Hey, first, I enjoyed your presentation. I couldn't make it live but logged on just before it started and just reviewed it.
<mdke> great, I'm very pleased you enjoyed it
<ds305> I'm on the BT and wiki focus group with Rocket. Last summer I did a major revision of the repositories wiki.
<mdke> cool, good to have you on board and nice to meet you
<ds305> Questions about pic uploads. First, it there a standard naming convention for the uploaded graphics?
<mdke> no, not currently
<ds305> I ended up naming them several ways and felt it was really inefficient.
<mdke> do you think that it would be helpful?
<ds305> Well, as a new wiki editor I had no clue about naming conventions.
<nhandler> mdke: Are the picture names used in enough places to actually matter?
<mdke> normally the image is just used once, on a specific page
<ds305> As I learned I was revising them a lot and uploaded a bunch before I was satisfied. Apparently you can't replace one that is already posted?
<mdke> occasionally we have icons that get reused though
<mdke> ds305: to replace one, you have to delete it and reupload, I think
<ds305> I wasn't able to delete. Is that limited to mods or whomever?
<ds305> That was one of the things I felt badly about - keep uploading minor variations of the same thing.
<mdke> hmm
<ds305> Of course, now I know enough to get it right the first time.  (Well, maybe the second).
<mdke> do you have a "del" button on the left of the attachments here - https://help.ubuntu.com/community/IconsPage?action=AttachFile
<ds305> No, just get and view.
<mdke> ok, I guess it's limited then
<mdke> that's a bit of a shame
<ds305> So it must be limited.
<mdke> we should look into changing that
<ds305> I can understand why just anyone can't delete a graphic, but if you saw the list on the repositories wiki I bet I had version 7 of some of the first ones. ;-)
<mdke> well, I think it's reasonable to allow anyone to delete them
<ds305> Perhaps you can bring it up to whoever decides those things.
<ds305> And I promise if I get the power I will delete about 30 uploads. :-)
<mdke> we can take the decision as a team
<mdke> the tricky bit is to get the admins of the server to make the change
<mdke> and to figure out how to do it :)
<ds305> Implementation is usually harder than coming up with an idea.
<ds305> Thanks for your time.
<mdke> yeah
<mdke> thanks for yours!
<jgoguen> does the community wiki have support for apt: URLs?
<nhandler> jgoguen: Yes
<nhandler> jgoguen: https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-doc/2009-April/012674.html
<jgoguen> ty nhandler
#ubuntu-doc 2009-04-29
<nhandler> I may or may not be at the meeting this weekend. Is it ok if I add an item to the agenda to be discussed?
<Kangarooo> hello.. could ubuntu loco teams template made more  info?
<Rocket2DMn> hi Kangarooo
<Rocket2DMn> what exactly are you talking about? do you have a link?
<mdke> nhandler: yes, absolutely
<KelvinGardiner> Hi, what is the correct way to reference a menu item such as File -> new in a wiki page, using â or -> ?
<LjL> in a minute i'm reverting the latest 3 changes to https://help.ubuntu.com/community/InternetRelayChat?action=diff&rev1=331&rev2=334 - as i don't really think it's appropriate to put such a prominent notice on how to report bugs on an unrelated help page. besides, i really suspect the source of user confusion was not that page but https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Pidgin (which also had that notice added, but which is probably ill-convceived in my opinion)
<bencrisford> I'm a little confused about adding images to the community documentation wiki
<bencrisford> how would I go about doing it?
<jpds> I'm not sure, but you should be able to add it vi Attachments and then {{image.png}} on the page.
<bencrisford> ok, i didnt find an attatchments bar :-/
<bencrisford> would i be able to do {{http://www.picture.com/picture.jpg}}?
<jpds> bencrisford: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UserDocumentation?action=AttachFile for example.
<jpds> You have to click: "Show editing options".
<bencrisford> ooo...  thanks :)
<mdke> DougieRichardson: is your playbook on the wiki already? If not, could you upload it to https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/SystemDocumentation and link it from the "Getting Started" section?
<DougieRichardson> mdke: I just changed the page with a link to it on my site, I've got it in a bzr branch on LP - can we integrate it into the teams docs? I'd like to keep it centralised to the team so only one copy needs maintained
<mdke> DougieRichardson: the wiki is the right place for it really - we can then maintain the copy that is there
<mdke> DougieRichardson: I think it's better to have it on the Ubuntu wiki rather than your site, no?
<mdke> DougieRichardson: how is the document created, by the way?
<DougieRichardson> mdke: you misunderstand me - I'm not bothered about keeping it on my site but it and the ODF its generated from as well as associated images is in a BZR brancg already
<mdke> ok, I see
<mdke> I think ideally we could keep the odf in a bzr branch, and the published pdf on the wiki
<mdke> do you agree?
<DougieRichardson> yes entirely happy with that - can we not link directly from the wiki to the copy of the PDF on LP?
<DougieRichardson> man the openweek session that's running at the moment has totally dropped into chaos
<DougieRichardson> mdke: I've changed it to a link to the copy on LP
<mdke> ok, I don't know if that link changes or not, let's give it a go for now
<philip_> how do you guys deal with copyrights and credits? for example, this pdf contains dougie's name... is it common here to do such things?
<DougieRichardson> philip_:mdke knows a _bit_ about law, lol
<philip_> i'm used to using vcs history as the credits and no inserting author names into the documents themselves
<philip_> but am not sure what's best, like maybe this decreases peoples motivations to contribute
<philip_> so sorry DougieRichardson for picking on you, but it's easy for an outsider to do :)
<DougieRichardson> philip_: in the system documentation, we link to the contributers page where everyone's name is.
<DougieRichardson> this being a new idea and me having written it and (without blowing my own trumpet) being a highly vocal entity on the Planet and other places I'm happy to be the POC for this new initiative.
<philip_> okay, so i'm looking at: https://help.ubuntu.com/9.04/internet/C/disconnecting-wireless.html
<DougieRichardson> This is something that if sucessful, should be under the doc teams control
<DougieRichardson> philip_:I wrote that, lol
<philip_> is "https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam" the link you refer to?
<philip_> i see no author names or links to commit history
<mdke> we tend to use "Ubuntu Documentation Team" as the author details for documents
<philip_> oh, it does link to https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ubuntu-docs
<mdke> in due course if the playbook is contributed to by other members, I'd like to see that there as well, although obviously it's up to Dougie
<DougieRichardson> philip_: No there's a seperate section
<mdke> in theory copyright in documentation belongs to each person who contributes
<DougieRichardson> mdke: its cc so i'm cool
<mdke> philip_: this is what we do with docs - https://help.ubuntu.com/legal.html
<philip_> ah
<DougieRichardson> mdke: I propose with the playbooks, once we've settled in to them to move them to the team and change the author to the team
<philip_> it's a tough topic, something that's been on my mind for about 7 years
<mdke> DougieRichardson: yes, it would be good to have the bzr branch under the ~ubuntu-core-doc team
<DougieRichardson> mdke: I'm happy with that, I'd like to be POC for it at present if no one has any objections
<mdke> DougieRichardson: what's meant by POC? Personally I like people always to go to the mailing list for contacting anything about the team
<DougieRichardson> point of contact
<mdke> that way if someone isn't around, someone else can answer
<mdke> I know what it stands for :)
<DougieRichardson> i know
<philip_> i didn't and was looking it up :)
<bencrisford> same :), but im looking up playbook as well?  what is it :S?
<mdke> I mean, what do you have in mind in terms of contact - off-list contact?
<DougieRichardson> I think that's valid but not until after this weekend's meeting where we have defined and agreed what direction to take with them
<philip_> they seem like quick guides to me
<philip_> bencrisford: i think playbook is a term relating to a book of plays, like a sports team might have... specific plays to perform specific tasks on a specific topic
<DougieRichardson> philip_: they are but its part of a bigger push to make contribution as easy as we can
<mdke> DougieRichardson: ok... although i don't think anyone can say that it's not a good idea to produce those quick guides - certainly no one has objected on the list
<bencrisford> hmm, cool :)
<philip_> someone asked how to check out something from bzr recently... i am new to bzr so don't feel comfortable but that wiki page should include examples
<bencrisford> is bzr like svn?
<DougieRichardson> mdke: not off list
<philip_> this page: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/SystemDocumentation/Repository
<bencrisford> ah nice :)
<philip_> should include copy-n-paste examples for ubuntu-docs
<philip_> currently it assumes we know that bzr magically knows about the ubuntu domain, and that we know what branches are
<bencrisford> ah it looks alot like svn
<bencrisford> which im familiar with
<philip_> a little different, but yeah... it's a version control system (although distributed instead of centralized like svn is)
<bencrisford> ah ok
<bencrisford> im really eager to get involved with the documentation now :D
<bencrisford> i have been sitting on the fence for a while, but after docs day i have been inspired :)
<philip_> see if you can figure out how to check it out :)
<DougieRichardson> actually, I have a sheet for Bazaar available
<bencrisford> :)
<bencrisford> a pdf sheet?
<philip_> a cheat sheet / quick guide i reckon
<bencrisford> cool =]
<DougieRichardson> yes a single a4 sheet
<bencrisford> nice, is it available for download at all?
<philip_> with all these different guides and howtos, just promise to now allow some to get out of date ;)
<philip_> s/now/not
<DougieRichardson> http://www.lynxworks.eu/files/BazaarPlaybook.pdf
<bencrisford> great :D, thanks
<philip_> this assumes we know what an ADDRESS is
<philip_> bzr newbies have no clue
<philip_> branches too
<bencrisford> which is why this channel is here
<DougieRichardson> mdke: I'll change the attribution to doc team at some point over the weekend, can we merge my branch into the teams?
<mdke> DougieRichardson: you can just change the branch owner in Launchpad
<DougieRichardson> mdke: OK
<bencrisford> is CIA-18 a bzr bot?
<mdke> bencrisford: it can be, but we don't use it at the moment
<bencrisford> oh :), i was just wondering
<bencrisford> because we have a CIA-12
<bencrisford> which does svn
<mdke> yeah, CIA does almost everything
<bencrisford> by we i mean spux project
<bencrisford> #spux (freenode)
<philip_> one nice thing about github is clicking a button gives you a CIA bot automagically
<mdke> we can't really use CIA effectively because we can't install it on LP
<mdke> although if every team member used it, it would work
<mdke> the ubuntu installer team does that
<mdke> philip_: I'll add some example commands to the Repository page
<philip_> cool
<bencrisford> mdke: what do i have to do to start contributing sysdocs?
<bencrisford> do i just submit some patches on LP or what?
<philip_> pretty sure that is addressed in the guide
<DougieRichardson> mdke: what happened with being able to set bug importance?
<philip_> bencrisford: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/SystemDocumentation/ has words, then links to "Submitting"
<bencrisford> oh cool, thank you
<bencrisford> :)
<philip_> btw, last month i blogged about the greatness behind the ubuntu "get involved" page so in case you're interested:
<philip_> http://blog.roshambo.org/archives/Learning-how-to-help-people-contribute-to-the-PHP.net-Project.html
<philip_> basically, i love the ubuntu get involved howto specifically for the docs
<bencrisford> nice =]
<bencrisford> i have been doing the documentation for spux project, which is a ventrilo client for linux
<bencrisford> im loving learning all the docbook :)
<bencrisford> brb - bath
<philip_> and plan to steal ideas from the ubuntu guide while working on: http://teachingopensource.org/index.php/Teaching_Get_Involved
<philip_> so anyway, enough rambling, i'll let everyone get back to work :)
<bencrisford1> my internet :'(
<bencrisford1> i upgraded to jaunty and suddenly my internet doesnt work properly, and my display drivers are broke
<bencrisford1> not to mention the general performance
<mdke> DougieRichardson: I've been going back and forth a bit with the bug guy about it, the bottom line is that people are likely to have to apply to the bug control team in the usual way in order to set bug importance - although i'm trying to convince him to accept a "fast-tracked" procedure
<DougieRichardson> mdke:cool, i don't understand why the project driver can't set it within their own packages
<bencrisford1> i applied to the bug control team like ages ago, i forgot all about returning my application :S
<bencrisford1> gosh im so forgettful at times
<nhandler> mdke: Would they be willing to make the core-doc team a subteam of bug control?
<nhandler> I know that they do that for MOTU
<bencrisford1> night
<mdke> nhandler: I don't think so - unles the core-doc team guarantees to apply their requirements for membership
<mdke> DougieRichardson: they are a bit careful about it because members can see private apport bugs which may contain sensitive data
<nhandler> Yeah, I forgot about that privilege mdke. I guess it is best if they apply separately to the bugcontrol team
<DougieRichardson> Fair enough
<mdke> right, let's get an upload to karmic on the board
<nhandler> mdke: You haven't done a karmic upload yet? What's taking you so long ;)
<Rocket2DMn> lol nhandler , nothing has really changed yet, why upload new docs?
<mdke> nhandler: I should have uploaded last weekend
<mdke> Rocket2DMn: lots of bugs fixed in this upload, mostly by your good self
<Rocket2DMn> :)
<Rocket2DMn> i need to start learning how to use bzr
<Rocket2DMn> guess i should figure out how to check out my own branch and keep it in sync with the main one
<mdke> your patches have been great so far
<mdke> haven't you used bzr for them?
<Rocket2DMn> well, i kept a local copy of the main branches with bzr
<Rocket2DMn> for instance, some users have branches here - https://code.launchpad.net/ubuntu-doc
<mdke> ah, that's very much optional
<mdke> it's for pushing specific fixes and making a merge request
<Rocket2DMn> yeah i figured, it would be a good learning exercise though
<mdke> it's kinda an alternative to posting patches
<Rocket2DMn> ok, well, i'll figure it out at a later time, i need to go make dinner
<nhandler> Rocket2DMn: I would be glad to show you if you want
<Rocket2DMn> thanks nhandler , perhaps later this evening
<nhandler> Sure thing ;)
<mdke> awesome
<mdke> Launchpad-Bugs-Fixed: 209530 219972 257337 274845 352313 355008 356933 357344 359288 363552
<mdke> 10 bugs fixed in the first week of karmic
<mdke> philip_: I've played with the Repository page a bit, ee if that helps
<mdke> damn this keyboard
<mdke> this laptop is getting prehistoric
#ubuntu-doc 2009-04-30
<ds305> Hey all, looking for a gedit user, especially one who does scripting with it. But anyone will do. ;-)
<Taim> scripting with it?
<Taim> you mean writing plugins or using it for scripting?
<ds305> No, I'm looking to make sure a tab no longer exists. Thanks.
<ds305> Thanks. I'm updating the gedit wiki page here: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/gedit   It shows a Highlight Syntax tab. I need confirmation it no longer exists.
<ds305> You get to it via Edit, Prefs, but I think it's been removed from later versions of gedit.
<Taim> It is gone.
<Taim> I have: View, Editor, Font & Colors and Plugins.
<ds305> TY. If I could ask another question.  Do you have an entry in the bottom status bar ... I think you just answered my next one.
<ds305> The bottom bar has the type of code. I suppose that is the Editor entry.
<Taim> Yes, there is a drop-bar at the botom with they syntax type.
<Taim> Do you want fresh screenshots?  I can fire them up to my site for you to snarf.
<ds305> I've taken the screen shots but haven't uploaded them. I wanted to make sure the Highlight Syntax tab didn't exist.
<ds305> The bottom status bar on mine seems a bit different than yours. I'm using 2.26.1
<Taim> Same here.
<ds305> I appears the bottom changes according to what file is open (besides the syntax window).
<ds305> Maybe not, but I don't see the Plugins window, just syntax, tab width and line info.
<Taim> Same here.
<Taim> OH!
<Taim> OK.
<Taim> I was looking at the settings tab in edit, preferences.
<ds305> Ah, ok.
<Taim> The status bar shows:  doc type, tab, line, column and "INS"
<ds305> Same here. Do you recall ever using/seeing the Highlight Syntax tab. I think it's been gone since 2.18, which was about 7.10 IIRC.
<ds305> I never used it and it took me a long time this afternoon to determine it was no longer around.
<ds305> Thanks for your assistance Taim.
<Taim> No problem
<Rocket2DMn> nhandler, wanna help me with bzr?
<nhandler> Rocket2DMn: We're about to eat dinner. Are you going to be online in about 30-45 minutes?
<Rocket2DMn> yeah nhandler
<Rocket2DMn> go eat :)
<Rocket2DMn> lol mail spam on bug fixes mdke !
<cody-somerville> mdke, fyi, I'm not ignoring all the great threads on ubuntu-doc - just been busy with work and the release.
<mfitzhugh> Hi all - Could someone lend me a hand with a newbie bzr problem, please?
<mfitzhugh> I just need to figure out how to "reset" my local copy of karmic system docs
<mdke> mfitzhugh: sure, just a sec - phone call
<mfitzhugh> Thanks!
<mdke> mfitzhugh: sorry, I'm here now
<mdke> mfitzhugh: so do you want to undo changes that you've made? losing them forever?
<mfitzhugh> Cool, thanks mdke. So I'm trying to make sure I have all the latest karmic docs before diving into a bug
<mfitzhugh> Yes. I want a clean slate
<mdke> have you committed any changes with "bzr commit"?
<mfitzhugh> I commited one file yesterday during emma-janes bzr demo in Open Week
<mdke> ok, so if you've just done one commit, you can run "bzr uncommit" in the tree
<mfitzhugh> Just issue "bzr uncommit" on its own? Or do I need to specify the file I committed
<mdke> on its own will be fine
<mdke> (I hope)
<mfitzhugh> O.k. Did that. Now "bzr merge"?
<mdke> do "bzr status" to see if you have any uncommitted changes
<mfitzhugh> http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/161675/
<mdke> hmm, you have a conflict there
<mdke> that happens when you merge something which conflicts with your own branch
<mdke> to undo your local changes, do "bzr revert"
<mfitzhugh> Hmmm... mabye that happened when I was screwing around on my own trying to figure things out earlier today. Ok... here's what I got
<mfitzhugh> R   about-ubuntu/C/about-ubuntu.xml.OTHER => about-ubuntu/C/about-ubuntu.xml
<mfitzhugh> M  debian/changelog
<mdke> now see if "bzr status" gives you anything
<mfitzhugh> Clean!
<mdke> jolly good
<mfitzhugh> So I should be back in sync now?
<mdke> now let's just check for good order what revision you have
<mdke> do "bzr log -l 4"
<mdke> bzr log will dump all the revision history, and the -l 4 bit gives you the last 4 revisions
<mfitzhugh> Yup. I'm up to revno: 289
<mdke> ok, the latest in the branch on Launchpad is 290, so you can do "bzr pull lp:ubuntu-doc/karmic"
<mdke> (the "karmic" bit isn't strictly necessary, because lp:ubuntu-doc defaults to karmic at the moment, but I put it in so that if you happen to get other branches, you see how it works)
<mdke> in fact, just "bzr pull" on its own is normally enough, because bzr remembers the pull location
<mfitzhugh> Ok. Now I'm up to revno: 290. Cool! Thanks for the help! It's been a while since I've used version control.
<mdke> no worries
<mdke> each revision control system is different :)
<mdke> so what are you working on?
<mfitzhugh> So true. -- I'm trying to tackle https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ubuntu-docs/+bug/129505
<ubot4`> Launchpad bug 129505 in ubuntu-docs "Docs required on desktop search tools" [Wishlist,New]
<mdke> cool
<mdke> that bug raises a little twist to the usual procedures
<mdke> if you're looking at amending the "user-guide" document, you should be aware that this document isn't present in ubuntu-docs
<mdke> it's a document that we get from upstream, and is found in the gnome-user-docs package
<mdke> so we have a different bzr branch for that document
<mfitzhugh> I'm not really sure what I'm doing yet, but I'm sure I'll figure it out with help. -- Oh! That's good to know. I was thinking it was a matter of altering and ubuntu-doc to link to a gnome doc. What's the branch for the gnome docs?
<mdke> here: https://code.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-core-doc/gnome-user-docs/ubuntu-karmic
<mfitzhugh> So I need to bzr pull lp:https://code.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-core-doc/gnome-user-docs/ubuntu-karmic
<mfitzhugh> Is that right
<mdke> not quite
<mdke> you do:
<mdke> bzr branch lp:~ubuntu-core-doc/gnome-user-docs/ubuntu-karmic
<mdke> if you ever forget, it's written towards the top of the Launchpad page for the branch
<mfitzhugh> Oh, I see. b/c branch is for creating new copies while pull is to turn a branch into a mirror of another branch
<mdke> you can use http addresses with bzr, but if you do, you would remove the "lp:" bit, and the branch you get wouldn't support write access
<mdke> yes, that's right
<mfitzhugh> Cool. You just saved me a ton of confusion. Thanks! Any other pointers or tips on this oneL
<mdke> the other question to consider would be whether it's a change that should be submitted directly to Gnome, upstream, or which we should do in our branch
<mdke> we don't have to decide that now
<mdke> but in any event my initial thought would be that we should do the change in our branch, because tracker isn't officially part of Gnome, as I understand it
<philip_> that was wordy ;)
<philip_> is there a recommended ubuntu vmware appliance for doc writing?
<mfitzhugh> But it's part of the Ubuntu distro's Gnome :-) I understand (I think)
<mdke> right
<mfitzhugh> Cool. Alright. Off to work with me. Thanks again, mdke!
<mdke> philip_: don't think so - but I might not understand the question
<mdke> mfitzhugh: no worries, good luck
<mdke> mfitzhugh: feel free to mail the list if you get stuck
<mfitzhugh> Will do
<philip_> or generally a good ubuntu virtual machine... that can later be setup to write docs for SystemDocumentation
<mdke> philip_: if you run Ubuntu already, then you don't need a virtual machine, right?
<mdke> in Windows, I use virtualbox
<philip_> i run mac, and want something for vmware fusion
<mdke> ah, I don't know. I only just discovered virtualbox, and love it to bits
<philip_> yeah, i'm fairly new too and love it
<mdke> you could give it a try if you like
<mdke> it says it runs on mac
<philip_> okay, here goes!
<mdke> :)
<mdke> you download a standard Ubuntu iso and then just install using it (no need to burn to a CD)
<philip_> sometimes it's nice to already have it all setup by some intelligent geek so we don't have to worry about it :)
<DougieRichardson> phil uses VM for his writing
<mdke> philip_: is that what vmware does?
<DougieRichardson> mdke: you can download pre-configured vmware images
<mdke> I see
<DougieRichardson> vmwares player is free but the server wasn't (not sure if is now or not), hence you needed someone to make the images
<philip_> yeah, sometimes it's nice because it's simple, fast, and typically less to download... also simple to try all sorts of distros and stuff people make
<philip_> ideally a nice vmware appliance would exist that has all the desired tools setup
<mdke> philip_: that would be cool, definitely
<philip_> am setting up virtualbox now. should i be playing with some developmental version of ubuntu or stick with 9.04?
<mdke> the next version is pretty much just started, so there isn't much to play with at the moment
<mdke> I'd go with 9.04
<mdke> if you want to upgrade, you can save the state and upgrade, then revert to the saved state if it goes wrong :)
<philip_> saving states is for the weak!
<mdke> heh
<philip_> am trying Netbook Remix for kicks, this will be fine?
<mdke> sure
<mdke> netbook remix comes with an easy way of switching to the regular desktop
<dsas_> is there any reason for keeping the various alt & f2 methods of running apps rather than just using the menus>
<mdke> dsas_: only for programs which aren't in the menu
<dsas_> mdke: Thought as much, we have both methods in some places. Just so that the user has the choice of which way they want to start the app.
<dsas_> would be nice if we could have a button to click to start an app.
<mdke> oh yeah
<mdke> I wonder if that could b done
<dsas_> mdke: not currently as far as I can tell.
<dsas_> I think yelp passes a lot of that stuff on to gecko
<mdke> dsas_: ok, not to worry. The menu entry is the right way to go then IMO
<mdke> wow, fooka has rocked the wiki today
<mdke> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/RecentChanges
<mdke> Rocket2DMn: is he one of your soldiers?
<j1mc> :)
<j1mc> mdke: do you find it difficult to document ubuntu if you primarily use kubuntu?
<j1mc> holy cow that is a lot of edits
<mdke> j1mc: I don't use kubuntu
<j1mc> hm, I thought I saw a whole bunch of kubuntu team memberships on your LP page
<mdke> j1mc: indirect membership I guess
#ubuntu-doc 2009-05-01
<mdke> comes from the CC memberhsip I think
<mdke> Matthew East  â Ubuntu Community Council  â Kubuntu Members  â Kubuntu Bugs  â Kubuntu Users
<mdke> slightly odd structure, but still
<dsas_> mdke: my ubuntu membership has recently lapsed. Is there a process to follow to get it renewed?
<mdke> dsas_: it's autorenewable, but I think if it lapses, perhaps you lose that opportunity
<mdke> I'll just readd you
<dsas_> mdke: I kept putting off renewing myself and now I can't as I'm not a member.
<dsas_> mdke: thanks
<mdke> done
<saketh> hi
<saketh> does anyone know how I can find out who my mentor is?
<saketh> hello?
<philip_> mentor for what?
<saketh> for the doc mentor program...
<saketh> i dont have an account
<saketh> and i kinda wanna upload something
<saketh> to the launchpad repos
<philip_> sorry, i don't know how that works
<saketh> thanx anway
<saketh> also,
<saketh> where can i go to find a good tutorial on docbook?
<nhandler> saketh: http://wiki.docbook.org/topic/DocBookTutorials
<saketh> thanx
<nhandler> As for the mentoring program, it is currently dead. It will be discussed at the meeting this weekend
<saketh> so...
<saketh> when?
<nhandler> If you have a patch that you would like uploaded, attach it to a bug, and paste the URL here
<nhandler> saketh: #ubuntu-meeting on Saturday
<saketh> thank you
<saketh> ok...
<saketh> tahnx
<nhandler> It is on the fridge: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar
<saketh> w8...
<saketh> 7pm to 8pm UTC?
<saketh> hello?
<nhandler> That is correct saketh
<nhandler> And please be patient. Just because someone does not respond to you right away does not mean that they are ignoring you
<saketh> ok sorry
<philip_> irc is an idle friendly form of communication... we should assume people get up and do other things at any time
<saketh> mhm
<nhandler> (or are attempting to participate in too many IRC channels while using a horrible irc client that does not let him easily see when a channel has a new message)
<saketh> mhm
<philip_> :)
<saketh> i probably can stay untilt he meeting is over but i m not sure...
<saketh> How do u change the text u r typing in and all that other cool stuff?
<philip_> well, i'd say most people don't change fonts or use colors
<philip_> i assume you are talking via your irc client?
<saketh> mhm
<philip_> because there are roughly a zillion irc clients it's difficult to say for sure :)
<saketh> ur text turned red when u said that is correct saketh
<saketh> and i m using xchat
<philip_> often times irc clients will highlight lines in irc when your username is contained within
<philip_> like everything, it can  be configured, so play with your software and have it do whatever you want... we don't see it
<saketh> mhm
<saketh> thanx
<philip_> does the string 'mhm' indicate you are thinking? :)
<saketh> it just means taht i m listening
<saketh> we use taht a lot in chat
<saketh> i m kinda new to the docs team, so i m just figuring things out
<philip_> for channels like this, people tend to use the least amount of noise as possible
<saketh> ok
<saketh> like how to use bzr
<saketh> and launchpad
<saketh> its so complicated
<saketh> i like svn better
<philip_> that's because you've already learned svn
<saketh> i guess...
<saketh> ???
<saketh> i dont understand waht u r saying
<philip_> i understand only half of what i say
<saketh> waht is CTCP?
<saketh> oops
<saketh> taht didnt come from u
<philip_> ask google
<saketh> srry...
<philip_> typically in irc people do not use the return key as punctuation
<saketh> hmm?
<philip_> you know
<philip_> stuff like
<philip_> this
<saketh> oh
<saketh> sorry
<philip_> :)
<saketh> thats just the wa i caht in im
<saketh> anyway...
<saketh> how would I upload a fix that i made using bzr to launchpad?
<philip_> you would create a patch and send it to the mailing list
<saketh> how do i make a patch?
<philip_> saketh: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/SystemDocumentation/Submitting
<saketh> i already read that
<saketh> i didnt understand it
<philip_> it has "bzr diff > diffname.tx"
<philip_> 'bzr diff' is a command, that will create a diff (a patch)
<philip_> like in svn
<philip_> the '> diffname.txt' means it sends the output (the diff) to that filename
<saketh> ok
<saketh> i get it now...
<saketh> thanx
<philip_> i've never head of "bzr bundle" but it looks interesting
<saketh> mhm
<saketh> oops
<saketh> sorry
<saketh> well...
<saketh> i gotta go...
<saketh> tahnx
<saketh> bye!
<philip_> :)
<Rocket2DMn> my word mdke , he basically cleaned out CategoryDocumentation
<Rocket2DMn> mdke, he is not "one of my soldiers" :)
<Rocket2DMn> that is to say, he is not from the Beginners Team, I have no idea who he is
<nhandler> Rocket2DMn: He says he is part of the NY LoCo. Maybe cprofitt knows him
<Rocket2DMn> quite possible nhandler
<fooka> nhandler: i just noticed you were talking about me
<fooka> nhandler: am the guy who worked on CategoryDocumentation pages
<nhandler> fooka: I know (I looked at your LP page). We just didn't know who you were and noticed you did a lot of work on the wiki today
<fooka> nhandler: i gotta update that LP page :)
<fooka> nhandler: as i mentioned to mdke, just felt a little inspired to chip in after tuesday's openweek sessions
<j1mc> fooka: thanks so much for your work. :)
<fooka> j1mc: you're welcome
<nhandler> What is the policy regarding words like organize/organise with regards to the system documentation? I know there is some wiki page or something that mentions this, but I can't remember which one
<j1mc_> nixternal: should be u.s. english, so "organize."
<j1mc_> ooops
<j1mc_> nhandler: ... ^^
<nhandler> j1mc_: Ok, thanks
<philip_> nhandler: i don't see the answer here but i've mostly only skimmed: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/StyleGuide
<mdke> philip_: it's here, under Spelling - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/StyleGuide/SpellingPunctuationGrammar
<philip_> cool, there it is
<philip_> today i learned that, and also that -- cannot be used inside <!-- -->
<mdke> I didn't know that
<mdke> how bizarre
<philip_> truly
<philip_> i only refer to xml comments here, not sure about elsewhere
<nhandler> mdke: Feel like sponsoring http://paste.ubuntu.com/161898/ ?
<DJones> I'm not sure if this is the right place to report this, but from https://help.ubuntu.com/community/DesktopEffects the link in the "See Desktop Effects for an official version of this document." line isn't working, I'm getting the message "The requested URL /7.10/desktop-effects/C/ was not found on this server."
<jpds> Gutsy is dead. See: https://help.ubuntu.com/9.04/desktop-effects/C/
<DJones> jpds: It wasn't actually for me, I was just following the link through from the website, I guess the first page I linked just needs its link updating
<jpds> Yep.
<ds305> wiki formatting question... Few ubuntu community wiki pages have graphics aligned right with text to the left. Instead there is a graphic with the text below even if the image only fills part of the width.
<ds305> Is this the standard.
 * ds305 Perhaps because different users have different screen resolutions which would allow viewing it all in one screen?
<SiDi> Hello
<SiDi> I've got a question that is very likely offtopic : does anyone know good tools to write man pages ? :P
<DougieRichardson> SiDi: I thought they were in TeX
<SiDi> They're in a weird language actually.
<SiDi> I just took one and i'm modifying it at the moment
<janisozaur> hi! i've added a wiki page on virtual serial port - https://help.ubuntu.com/community/VirtualSerialPort if you want to check it
<Rocket2DMn> janisozaur, that page looks nice
<Rocket2DMn> I don't know anything about the content though, but I trust you know what you're doing
<Rocket2DMn> If you find other pages on the community docs that are relevant to it, you should make sure to set up some links between the pages
<janisozaur> Rocket2DMn, i just had to set up such a connection and after quite a long search and guesstimation i thought i could share with the knowledge gained
<Rocket2DMn> cool
<mdke> nhandler: sure, that looks fine
<mdke> nhandler: no particular bug which that fixes, right?
<mdke> Rocket2DMn: I really can't help but to see serious duplication of effort here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Learning/UbuntuDesktopTopics; the topics are basically identical to our desktop help. I'm really struggling to see why this can't use the same material as us
<Rocket2DMn> gimme a sec, finishing a quick forum tutorial
<mdke> Rocket2DMn: no immediate rush I was just thinking out loud
<Rocket2DMn> ah yeah that mdke
<Rocket2DMn> That it is not my baby, that is the brainchild of cprofitt and Vantrax (Matthew Lye)
<Rocket2DMn> bodhi.zazen is setting up the Moodle site
<Rocket2DMn> mdke, i think the purpose is to get existing teams involved in using new tools as part of their training/education efforts
<mdke> Rocket2DMn: I don't follow
<Rocket2DMn> they are supposed to be built around live sessions, not static documentation
<Rocket2DMn> I don't know much about Moodle, but I guess it is a sort of interactive education tool
<mdke> I see the idea of the "classroom", but find it a lot harder to see why material should be any different to onscreen help - the aim of both is to teach users
<Rocket2DMn> Yes, I understand.  I don't know all the details, but I think it is supposed to work alongside the current Classroom project and link to existing documentation whenever possible
<mdke> what do you mean by "to get existing teams involved in using new tools" in the context of this part of the project - is the idea that the docteam is involved in this?
<Rocket2DMn> I'm stepping a bit out of my zone here, but I think here is a good example: Take the OpenWeek sessions
<Rocket2DMn> Considering that users are actually paying attention and want to be involved, they can interact with the Moodle site to help learn
<Rocket2DMn> rather than just seeing text in the channel or on a web page
<mdke> hmm
<Rocket2DMn> I'm not involved with the project, you would have to ask vantrax or cprofitt
<mdke> I already raised the concern about duplication, tbh, as did Mike Basinger - it was roundly ignored
<mdke> we'll see how it develops, maybe I'm reading the idea wrongly, but it's a bit odd that no one has come to talk about how material can be reused, at the absolute least
<Rocket2DMn> Understood, I think one problem they are running into is that the material is so spread out
<Rocket2DMn> every team kinda does their own thing
<mdke> well, help is more or less in one place, that's why we called it help.ubuntu.com
<mdke> the idea is for it to be easy for users to find and for them not to have to search different sites
<Rocket2DMn> mdke, it's not just for system help, I think it is designed for teams to make use of it their training efforts, like MOTU
<Rocket2DMn> I think from where we sit, they would want a doc team member to use Moodle to setup a training session using existing documentation
<Rocket2DMn> Then that doc team member (or somebody else) can actually go teach the session using the Moodle program as part of the course
<Rocket2DMn> I don't think they are planning to move, copy, or rewrite the actual documentation somewhere that it isnt already
<Rocket2DMn> i share your concern though mdke
<mdke> Rocket2DMn: I'm still a bit concerned about the idea of a separate website for that, in respect of user help - I'm not bothered about the other sections like MOTU
<mdke> the single website thing is very important, IMO
<Rocket2DMn> yeah mdke , I don't think they intend to use the site as another place to get help.  I don't think documentation is going to be written there.
<mdke> let's see how it develops
<mdke> Rocket2DMn: ok, maybe I'm misunderstanding the project then
<Rocket2DMn> I don't fully understand it myself
<mdke> I think it needs to be explained a bit more clearly on the landing page
<Rocket2DMn> I think that their Moodle site will be on an ubuntu.com subdomain though
<Rocket2DMn> I think it is destined for http://learning.ubuntu.com/
<Rocket2DMn> IIRC, they have been given approval to use this
<mdke> that's what the page says
<DougieRichardson> have they not been in touch with you?
<mdke> no, nor the CC
<mdke> except for the initial contact, when I raised my concern
<DougieRichardson> that's odd
<DougieRichardson> I have some worries too.
<Rocket2DMn> I don't think the program is designed to be an attempt at documentation
<DougieRichardson> No, Matthew Lye and Charles Profitt have both been in touch with me and it looks to me more like they're going to negate the desktop-training if anything
<mdke> I've got that point; but starting a new site will inevitably cause confusion for users about where to go
<DougieRichardson> I agree - we should get more involved now and we can get more out of it for contribution - it might work for us too
<DougieRichardson> This is the page that Matthew emailed me about earlier, have you seen it: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Learning
<mdke> yes, that's what we were discussing
<mdke> there is this post from bodhi - https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-doc/2009-April/012617.html
<mdke> but that post is just a collection of positive words, rather than any real explanation of how why they are true
<DougieRichardson> Yes I remember it and thought his tone was a bit curt to say the least
<mdke> I'd like to see a genuine engagement with the concern about separate sites
<mdke> I'll start a conversation, I think
<Rocket2DMn> bodhi is a really chill guy
<mdke> it's probably a question of more communication needed
<DougieRichardson> mdke: Could you elaborate on your concerns I missed the start of this conversation
<mdke> http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/162435/
<mdke> that's the bit before you joined
<mdke> ok, I have to go for a bit, forgot about dinner
<Rocket2DMn> alright im goin afk too, bbl
<Shane_Fagan> DoudieRichardson: What bug would you suggest I start on?
<Shane_Fagan> DougieRichardson: What bug would you suggest I start on?
<DougieRichardson> Shane_Fagan: two secs dude
<DougieRichardson> Shane_Fagan: What areas are you interested in / experienced in and how confident are you?
<Shane_Fagan> Well im a student programmer,
<Shane_Fagan> So im confident enough but not too experienced
<DougieRichardson> Some would see we're always student programmers - while except Soustroup, Torvalds and Deitel ;-)
<DougieRichardson> So I guess you're happy with markup languages then?
<Shane_Fagan> Ish learned a little but my area is desktop programs
<Shane_Fagan> So yep happy enough but havent done much
<DougieRichardson> Cool, well if you want to jump in then Bug #362414 is probably a good place to start
<ubot4`> Launchpad bug 362414 in ubuntu-docs "A note on having to manually deinterlace interlaced DVDs should be made" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/362414
<DougieRichardson> Gotta love ubot4
<Shane_Fagan> Yep
<DougieRichardson> We need to clarify the issue, I don't know if this issue is actually true or not so we need to confirm it first
<DougieRichardson> You can either attempt to confirm on your own setup
<DougieRichardson> Or Assign it to yourself and, set it as Incomplete and request confirmation from the submitter
<Shane_Fagan> Ill look into it cool
<DougieRichardson> Let me know if you need more direction once you know where you're going
<DougieRichardson> Your best bet is to email me
<DougieRichardson> because I'm up to my eyes in a Java project this weekend
<DougieRichardson> dougierichardson@ubuntu.com
<Shane_Fagan> DougieRichardson: Bug #362414 is invalid in jaunty
<ubot4`> Launchpad bug 362414 in ubuntu-docs "A note on having to manually deinterlace interlaced DVDs should be made" [Undecided,Invalid] https://launchpad.net/bugs/362414
<Shane_Fagan> Are there any others that would be easy to look into
<DougieRichardson> Shane_Fagan: Awsome - that's one down.
<DougieRichardson> Shane_Fagan: Try to give the submitter a few platitudes though to encourage them to submit in the future
<DougieRichardson> "Thanks for taking the time to report this" and so on
<Shane_Fagan> Oh I understand
<DougieRichardson> Its like walking a tightrope because we need to be as polite as possible but sometimes people can be very rude
<DougieRichardson> How about bug #346892 ?
<ubot4`> Launchpad bug 346892 in ubuntu-docs "games/C/games.xml:109 keymapping not input devices" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/346892
<Shane_Fagan> DougieRichardson: Sure ill have a look
<Meg> hi all :)
<Meg> i'd like to contribute translation help, what can i do to get started??
<DougieRichardson> Hi Meg
<Meg> hi
<DougieRichardson> Have you looked over https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/Translation
<DougieRichardson> What languages do you speak?
<Meg> Spanish (native), English, ... French and Italian (teacher of both these languages)
<DougieRichardson> Fantastic, mdke and adiroiban are the best people to speak to
<Rocket2DMn> that's quite a resume
<DougieRichardson> Did you see adi's talk on OpenWeek?
<Rocket2DMn> Ok, so can anybody tell me why when I view the wiki, some stuff is messed up.  For instances, tables don't always show correctly
<nhandler> Thanks mdke for sponsoring the patch
<DougieRichardson> Rocket2DMn: I hadn't noticed - any examples?
<Rocket2DMn> its on the team wiki
<Rocket2DMn> for instance: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BeginnersTeam
<Rocket2DMn> look at the table under IRC - I can't see the separate between the two non-colored rows
<Rocket2DMn> separator*
<Rocket2DMn> some tables look ok, or some tables will only have a problem in one or two places
<Rocket2DMn> look at our meetings page - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BeginnersTeam/Meetings
<DougieRichardson> I don't see that or am being blonde
<Rocket2DMn> On some of the tables there I don't see column separators
<DougieRichardson> Screenshot?
<Rocket2DMn> http://img23.imageshack.us/img23/6779/screenshotbeginnersteam.png
<DougieRichardson> Not from here - the seperators are there
<DougieRichardson> Is this in FF?
<Rocket2DMn> yes, FF, do you see what im talkin about in the screenshot?
<DougieRichardson> yes
<Rocket2DMn> the same thing happens with row separators
<DougieRichardson> is noscript doing anything - is see the icon but not sure if that icon means on or off
<Rocket2DMn> the problem existed before i started using noscropt
<DougieRichardson> what about adblock?
<DougieRichardson> Ignore that
<DougieRichardson> I'm using abp, duh
<KelvinGardiner> Hi, where can I find the IRC logs of the last doc team meeting?
<DougieRichardson> i don't even remember the last one we had!
<mdke> KelvinGardiner: do you mean the one focused on the installation guide?
<KelvinGardiner> No, the last general meeting, I was going to have a look at them before the meeting tomorrow.
<DougieRichardson> Rocket2DMn: What's your browser identifying as?
<nhandler> KelvinGardiner: If you have the date of the meeting, you could look at irclogs.ubuntu.com
<KelvinGardiner> nhandler: I don't. I had a quick look at the logs and viewed the ones with a reasonable file size, but couldn't find it. It's not particularly important.
<mdke> it's been a couple of years at least, I guess
<mdke> July 2007, looks like
<Rocket2DMn> DougieRichardson, it should be identifying as firefox
<DougieRichardson> Rocket2DMn: Just wondered if it was a CSS issue
<Rocket2DMn> User Agent is Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.9.0.10) Gecko/2009042523 Ubuntu/9.04 (jaunty) Firefox/3.0.10
<DougieRichardson> Rocket2DMn: Me to, next avenue...
<DougieRichardson> Rocket2DMn: Stage 2 - have  you tried doing a firefox -P and using a clean profile to check if its an extension or setting?
<Rocket2DMn> what does -P do?
<DougieRichardson> has a nice dialog about profiles
<DougieRichardson> sorry that was garbage - I'm tired and stupid , it starts without a profile loaded
<Rocket2DMn> works ok with a new profile, as it should
<Rocket2DMn> im not gonna go build up an entirely new profile though
<DougieRichardson> OK, shall we try the halving method?
<DougieRichardson> Disable half your extensions
<DougieRichardson> see if its there
<DougieRichardson> if not you know its in the off half and keep splitting till we find the culprit
<Rocket2DMn> alright hold on for a min
<Rocket2DMn> is there a way to just disable all
<Rocket2DMn> then at leats we woudl know its an extension
<DougieRichardson> well the -P option did that so it's a fair stab
<Rocket2DMn> ok well i turned them all off and the problem ois still there
<Rocket2DMn> brb
<DougieRichardson> what about if you're logged out of he wiki?
<Rocket2DMn> i tried removing the LP and wiki cookies
<Rocket2DMn> i gotta take a phone call right now though, ill bbiab
<Rocket2DMn> thanks for your help
<DougieRichardson> cool
<DougieRichardson> no worries mate
<Rocket2DMn> ok , back
<DougieRichardson> hi
<nhandler> In the "Adding a software repository" section, why do we use "deb http://ftp.debian.org etch main" as the example?
<mdke> I'm not aware of a special reason
<DougieRichardson> We should probably change that
<nhandler> Maybe we could update it to give an example of adding a PPA
<mdke> perhaps we should use the partner repository as an example
 * nhandler thinks a PPA would be more useful
<mdke> go on
<DougieRichardson> Actually, I think PPA is a good idea too
<nhandler> Do we have any other documentation that discusses the PPAs?
<DougieRichardson> Not in the system docs
<mdke> they aren't really intended for users though
<DougieRichardson> But given the number of Xorg drivers
<mdke> whereas the partner repository i
<mdke> +s
<DougieRichardson> that are in ppa it might be an idea
<nhandler> mdke: I would have to disagree. Some PPAs are very stable
<mdke> nhandler: but they might not be - they don't have any level of guaranteed quality control
<DougieRichardson> They're also being mentioned more often on the forums too
<mdke> as with the Ubuntu/Canonical archive
<nhandler> mdke: That is why we would not link to any specific PPA. It would be up to the user to decide which one to add
<DougieRichardson> mdke: we can warn people about the risks
<mdke> yes, we could do
<nhandler> It would also be a good place to explain how to import the PPA keys to be more secure
<mdke> I was just thinking that the partner repository would be a good example because you don't need such a warning, and because it's intended for users
<DougieRichardson> OK, then should we expand on PPA on the Wiki and link to it?
<nhandler> DougieRichardson: Launchpad has a decent wiki page explaining the PPAs as well
<mdke> I'm not saying that we should not document PPAs, maybe we could do
<nhandler> What about a separate doc page about the PPAs?
<DougieRichardson> If the LP page is good then we can just link to that?
<nhandler> For the wiki, that would work DougieRichardson
<DougieRichardson> For the system too - PPA is going to need web access
<nhandler> DougieRichardson: Using a PPA needs web access, adding it does not
<nhandler> But we could add a link at the end of the PPA section in the system docs (if we create one)
<DougieRichardson> nhandler: granted but that's kinda splitting hairs as it wont do anything
<DougieRichardson> I don;t see a problem with expanding the system docs
<nhandler> Let me draft a PPA section. We can decide where to put it later
<DougieRichardson> OK
<mdke> I don't have a feel for how many ppas exist that are suitable for public consumption (do we even document -proposed?) but if there are a few out there, then we could add a section
<DougieRichardson> Anyone dealing with intel xorg servers is likely to be interested in thsi
<nhandler> mdke: One example of a relatively stable PPA is the kubuntu-experimental one that we were using to provide newer kubuntu packages to intrepid users
<mdke> nhandler: ok, I don't have a fundamental problem with it; I just think that if something is suitable for broad user consumption, it's likely to be in the main repository
<mdke> I can't see a downside of adding a section though, properly explained
<nhandler> mdke: That depends. Some users use a PPA to distribute stable packages while they are waiting for a sponsor. Or a freeze might prevent them from uploading it
<nhandler> It is also an easy way to provide newer versions of packages for users of different versions of Ubuntu (without going through the backport process)
<mdke> right, but those processes are there for a reason, they aren't just random hurdles
<mdke> anyway, as I say, let's see how it looks, I think it's a good thing if you could draft a section
 * nhandler will try to draft something by the end of the weekend
<mdke> great
<KelvinGardiner> Is there a way to limit the width of a image in the wiki. The keyboard image on this page goes over the edge of the main page area. https://help.ubuntu.com/community/AppleKeyboard I've seen this on a few other pages as well.
<Rocket2DMn> KelvinGardiner, i think you just need to make a thumbnail manually
<KelvinGardiner> Rocket2DMn: ok thanks.
<DougieRichardson> mdke: I have had a chat with bodhi_zazen and doctormo about the learning thing
#ubuntu-doc 2009-05-02
<saketh> hi
<saketh> how do i assign a bug in the docs to myself?
<nhandler> saketh: Do you have a Launchpad account?
<saketh> yes
<nhandler> saketh: Then just click the arrow next to the package name, and there will be an option to change the assignee
<saketh> ok
<saketh> tahnx
<saketh> i still dont get how to change the assignee...
<saketh> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/xubuntu-docs
<saketh> i am here
<DougieRichardson> ok, pick a bug
<saketh> Ubuntu is mentioned in the xubuntu-doc
<saketh> s
<saketh> hello?
<saketh> oh also... does anyone know what time the meeting is in pacific time?
<philip_> you clicked the down arrow under the "Assigned to" in the navbar?
<saketh> ummm no
<philip_> after choosing a bug
<saketh> mhm
<philip_> regarding meeting time, click the date: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/MeetingAgenda
<nhandler> It would be 10 am
<saketh> ok
<saketh> wait...
<nhandler> I mean 12
<saketh> ok
<saketh> i can show up then...
<philip_> cool
<saketh> so... about the bugs...
<saketh> is it ok if i assign a bug to myself and it has already been assigned to my mentor?
<mdke> DougieRichardson: ok, any progress?
<DougieRichardson> mdke: Yes I think we're all moving in the right direction, I get the impression that other groups, such as MOTU have expressed similar concerns
<mdke> ok
<DougieRichardson> I spoke about the page we discussed earlier
<DougieRichardson> What they would like is to have materials suited to learning available and have us produce material to train our new members'
<DougieRichardson> I don't feel there's a conflict here having spoken to them, certainly not intentionally.
<mdke> we need to make a distinction between what they have planned for users, and what they have planned for new contributors
<mdke> my concern is mainly about users, because I'm worried that having more than one website for users to learn about Ubuntu is counterproductive
<DougieRichardson> OK, can you eleborate on what you see being an issue when it comes to what they have planned for users?
<mdke> it's an extra place to search, and confusing in terms of where they should be looking for information
<mdke> if there is a better way to teach users, I'd much rather try and explore what we should be doing better on help.ubuntu.com
<mdke> because our documentation really is about teaching users
<mdke> in terms of contributors, a similar issue arises - we already have problems with giving clear information, so I personally would like to see us working on ensuring that the wiki pages are top notch and welcoming
<DougieRichardson> I think its more linking to our documentation wherever possible
<mdke> again, another website seems like it would introduce confusion
<DougieRichardson> I agree that the wiki pages are essential but I suspect that this is going to be a big project that might be the sort of thing attracting searches before us.
<mdke> if it's a software issue, I'd really like to have explained to me what moodle gives that the wiki can't - I'd just like to see some justification
<mdke> going into these types of issues in detail will always reveal whether there is a genuine need for a project, or whether an existing project simply needs to be improved
<DougieRichardson> I can see your point
<mdke> e.g., to take your last point, if we're not attracting searches, we should find out why not, and fix it
<DougieRichardson> They're very much in the design phase though so we should probably invest in their meetings. There are some very good people getting involved in their project
<mdke> I'm trying not to make a decision for myself whether the project is really going to add value or not, because I don't feel that I'm being well informed enough about the pros and cons
<DougieRichardson> OK well, why don't we attend their next meeting and discuss it with them
<mdke> good idea
<mdke> a spec would be kind of a good way to play concerns like these out, because then you can see what problem the project is trying to solve, and how it intends to resolve concerns like mine (and other people's)
<DougieRichardson> I mean, its likely I'll be involved in their project any way because the desktop training team is investing in it - dinda and sabdfl are interested
<DougieRichardson> I agree a spec would have been best but I think they're going to push ahead regardless - bodhi is paying for the server
<mdke> I think the structure of the idea is what requires thought
<mdke> the idea is basically that attracting introducing people to the community should be done through a specific site and a specific team
<mdke> that's a completely new concept for the community, I think - to date different areas have worked on attracting contributors through their team pages on the wiki
<mdke> I'm not totally against the idea, but I'd really like to see it better rationalised
<DougieRichardson> attracting contribution is only a part of what they envisage - they want to centralise all Ubuntu learning subjects
<mdke> you mean re-centralise
<DougieRichardson> where are they currently centralised?
<mdke> that used to be the role of wiki.ubuntu.com
<mdke> we moved user help out of there because we thought (after a very detailed and carefully discussed spec) that it was right to separate them
<DougieRichardson> Moodle does offer some advantages for teaching in a distributed environment. If you want to see a good example of it then have a look at Openlearn
<mdke> I suppose I have a kind of instinctive reaction where I see something that hasn't gone through much community wide discussion
<mdke> and is steaming ahead anway
<DougieRichardson> http://openlearn.open.ac.uk/
<DougieRichardson> Matthew, I appreciate that and I feel that some of this has not been gone about in the correct way but the intention is good. I think the documentation team would be better served by getting involved in this initiative now where we can help shape it
<DougieRichardson> mdke: Can I bring txwikinger in on this
<txwikinger> hi folks
<mdke> sure
<mdke> hi txwikinger
<txwikinger> hi mdke
<txwikinger> You were wondering earlier what moodle can bring
<txwikinger> moodle is bascially a virtual learning environment
<txwikinger> It is used by Universities, e.g. Open University uses it very successful
<txwikinger> und more and more also by Secondary Schools and Colleges
<txwikinger> You allows you to bring in interactivity
<mdke> what sort of interactivity?
<txwikinger> You can have activities where the stuff that is learned can be practiced with tasks
<txwikinger> you can have quizzes for self-assessment about what you have learned
<txwikinger> you can redo those quizzes to see if you have learned more
<txwikinger> you can mix in all kinds of resources
<mdke> what would it bring in terms of user help?
<txwikinger> and if you have a group learning together, you can have a lot of group activities too
<txwikinger> the progress what people do can be seen by tutors
<txwikinger> so they can mentor the people learning more eficiently
<txwikinger> you bascially can have course instructors that help the learning
<mdke> right
<txwikinger> Fundamentally moodle is getting closer and closer to bring a online classroom to the students at home
<txwikinger> like distance learning just a lot more directly interactive
<txwikinger> and with automatic tools for students to assess their progress themselves
<txwikinger> those self-assessment they can then share with the course instructors
<txwikinger> so they can easier see where the particular student has problems
<txwikinger> It is not anything new
<txwikinger> it is a new way of presenting the material that is available or can be used outside moodle too
<txwikinger> and I platform for a"dialogue of learning"
<txwikinger> As a distance learnign lecturer I have experienced that most students need this interactivity and also contact with other students and a mentor or lecturer in order to learn efficiently
<txwikinger> Sorry, I didn't want to hog the conversation like that, just wanted to explain a little what opportunities moodle can bring
<mdke> that's fine, thanks for the detailed explanation
<txwikinger> no problem
<mdke> but if moodle provides these features, what would be the point in keeping wikis around at all?
<txwikinger> a wiki is very good for collaboration
<mdke> but moodle seems to be as well
<txwikinger> well.. moodle has a wiki feature as well
<txwikinger> but that is really for places where you dont want to set up another wiki
<txwikinger> or need the particular moderating
<txwikinger> moodle is more a communication plaform that emulates learning as if you were in the same room
<txwikinger> and gives you a structure you would have in a real school
<mdke> it's an advanced content management system, as you've described it
<mdke> right?
<txwikinger> yes, in some way
<txwikinger> A specialised contant management system or learning
<txwikinger> content
<mdke> what I have trouble with is the concept of maintaining two content management systems with a similar, or overlapping, purpose
<mdke> or at the very least, overlapping content
<txwikinger> I understand your concern
<mdke> that strikes me as being beyond the reach of most teams around
<mdke> so the question I automatically ask when something like this comes up
<mdke> is (a) can our existing tools achieve the stated purpose well enough, or (b) can the new tool achieve all our purposes?
<DougieRichardson> I think there is a potential for overlap but that if the teams work together this can be effectively managed and there is a benefit to us in providing an environment to support training our own students
<mdke> obviously there will always be a question of dgree
<mdke> but the extent to which those questions can be answered with a positive is to weigh up against the difficulties of maintaining two resources
<txwikinger> I don't think that moodle would replace wikis
<txwikinger> however, there is no problem to use the existing wiki as one of the resources for moodle
<mdke> DougieRichardson: I'm a bit more cynical than you are about what can be effectively achieved though; and I'm not that convinced that we can't support our new contributors really well by improving the wiki resources that we have
<txwikinger> For me, a wiki is very good for people working together on something
<txwikinger> However, it is not a very good or efficient medium for people to learn
<txwikinger> moodle is particularly build for the purpose of making it easy for people to learn something
<mdke> txwikinger: I absolutely accept that, of course
<DougieRichardson> mdke: I think this is where we agree to differ - I don't think that the wiki is sufficient for a large enough number of our contributers
<txwikinger> it allows synergy by the re-use of any resources that are available
<txwikinger> you don't have to redo all of that
<txwikinger> it adds additional features that are very important for the learning progress
<mdke> txwikinger: so how does it work can you literally automatically include sections of a wiki page, so that if you update the wiki page, the moodle site is also updated automatically?
<txwikinger> yes
<bodhi_zazen> may I join this conversation as well ?
<txwikinger> you can put in links to anything you want to
<mdke> bodhi_zazen: of course
<txwikinger> hi bodhi_zazen
<bodhi_zazen> thank you :)
<mdke> txwikinger: but can you actually include text from a separate site
<bodhi_zazen> hey txwikinger :)
<mdke> and have it update automatically if the separate site changes?
<bodhi_zazen> first, if you are interested, we have a channel you are all welcome to
<bodhi_zazen> #ubuntu-learning
<bodhi_zazen> we have some really nice team members there as
<txwikinger> mdke: I am not why you would want to do that
<bodhi_zazen> Second, as you know, this is an outbranching of the beginners team
<txwikinger> Either you want the text not to change, then you would copy the text
<bodhi_zazen> the beginners team collaborates with several other teams as well, and quite successfully I might add
<txwikinger> if you want to have all changes anyway, you would not want to copy it
<mdke> bodhi_zazen: certainly
<bodhi_zazen> Moodle, or similar, fills a similar, but very different need then the wiki
<mdke> yes, txwikinger has given a good explanation
<bodhi_zazen> Everyone learns as his or her own way
<bodhi_zazen> Moodle is just another format and IMO enhances the wiki content
<mdke> DougieRichardson: just to come back on your point a few minutes ago, I'm not saying the wiki is entirely sufficient, but that it can be improved (through initiatives like those we've seen in the MOTU team and some of which you've applied to our team already)
<bodhi_zazen> What is very nice, the learning team can contribute to the wiki, and we can then use existing content to present it is a different venue if you will
<txwikinger> Well Moodle allows a lot of didactic and paedagogic techniques that are difficult ot achieve in a wiki
<mdke> DougieRichardson: irc classes, playbook, walkthroughs etc
<bodhi_zazen> It is a tool for learning
<bodhi_zazen> it can not replace the wiki, nor is that the goal
<DougieRichardson> mdke: i agree it can be improved - this initiative integrates the IRC and walkthrough elements
<bodhi_zazen> likewise, it fills a need that some people feel are unmet by the wiki
 * txwikinger agrees with that
<mdke> bodhi_zazen: I understand (thanks to txwikinger) what value is added; but what worries me is that it will (a) require us to dedicate substantial resources to maintaining two sites; and (b) introduces potential confusion for people about which of the two sites they should be using
<mdke> bodhi_zazen: I'm just trying to weigh up the considerations in my mind
<bodhi_zazen> Ah
<mdke> and another consideration of course is whether the wiki can be improved
<mdke> whether by content or adding features
<bodhi_zazen> Well, yes, it will require maintance
<mdke> given how seriously invested the Ubuntu community is in our wiki
<txwikinger> I don't think anything will be taken away from the wiki
<bodhi_zazen> but we are neither asking or excluding the doc team to maintain moodle
<bodhi_zazen> we are looking to collaborate
 * mdke nods
<txwikinger> indeed
<mdke> bodhi_zazen: to be absolutely clear, I'm not taking a position against the project, at all; but I do want to see a better quality discussion around the community about it that has happened to date
<mdke> s/that/than
<bodhi_zazen> I find there are people with a different background then mine, education (is school)
<mdke> to give you an example
<bodhi_zazen> and they are very very interested in wiki
<mdke> we used to have online documentation on wiki.ubuntu.com
 * bodhi_zazen listens
<mdke> after some serious thought we drew up a specification justifying why we thought it was sensible to move documentation to a separate website at help.ubuntu.com
<mdke> we took the spec to the CC for discussion
<mdke> (after a lot of work on it)
<mdke> this was before I was on the CC
<mdke> it became apparent that they had concerns which we hadn't raised in the spec, and the idea was rejected
<bodhi_zazen> OUCH
<mdke> it was one of the more disappointing moments in my volunteer work for Ubuntu
<bodhi_zazen> Well, such may be the fate of this project as well
<mdke> but I quickly realised that the reason it was rejected was because we hadn't actually justified it properly, or addressed their concerns in the specification
<bodhi_zazen> But that is a "risk" I am willing to take
<mdke> so we went back and did that, and then got it approved
<bodhi_zazen> +1 on that
<bodhi_zazen> Well, we have worked very hard on that
<bodhi_zazen> And we have support / approval from Canonical on this
<mdke> the point I want to make is that the quality of a discussion around potential problems with a project is what will ultimately make it successful, and acceptable to the community
<bodhi_zazen> we have been approved to use the Ubuntu trade mark
<txwikinger> Well.. another reason for me to do this project on moodle is that I think one of the handicaps for linux to spread at the moment is the need for professional training
<mdke> that's fine
<bodhi_zazen> and we have been approved to use learn.ubuntu.com (subdomain)
<mdke> but the wiki page at the moment doesn't really answer any of my questions
<mdke> I only fully understood the benefits of moodle until txwikinger took the trouble to give a very good explanation here
<bodhi_zazen> what wiki page mdke :)
<mdke> wiki/Learning
<txwikinger> course moduls in moode form can allow the leverage of many independent professionals to leverage training to customers
<bodhi_zazen> ah, well, part of our "problem" now
<mdke> and this discussion has been quite productive I think
<bodhi_zazen> is we went the reverse direction
<txwikinger> therefore raising the brand of ubuntu to another level
<mdke> but all these issues need to be explained somewhere
<bodhi_zazen> we approached Canonical first
<bodhi_zazen> building project second
<mdke> Canonical isn't Ubuntu though
<bodhi_zazen> so we are (hopefully) starting with support, and build from there
<mdke> they just control the trademark :)
<bodhi_zazen> well, yes, but you get the idea
<mdke> I see what you are saying
<bodhi_zazen> to be honest, the biggest problem we have is "overwhelming interest" in the project
<mdke> but I don't agree with it - I'd like to see you justify the project to the whole community and address any concerns that are raised; because that's just healthy community, for me
<bodhi_zazen> by that I mean, we have so many people interested in the project, we have not built anything yet, lol
<mdke> I'm pretty sure you have views on all the points that I'd raise, and can produce answers
<mdke> they just aren't written down
<bodhi_zazen> mdke: well we have done exactly that
<bodhi_zazen> The idea was presented to all the ubuntu community members in a now infamous mass email
<bodhi_zazen> lol
<mdke> I haven't seen it
<mdke> oh yeah
<mdke> I replied to that email, and didn't get a response
<mdke> but I think you're misunderstanding
<mdke> that email was a general overview
<bodhi_zazen> Well, as I said, when we sent the email we thought, gee lets get teh idea out and see what happens
<mdke> I can appreciate that
<mdke> I see the enthusiasm
<bodhi_zazen> What happened is we found large numbers of people interested, and so are proceeding
<DougieRichardson> getting a specification written would be a sensible step now
<mdke> bodhi_zazen: yeah, I've understood your point. It's an error, in my view
<bodhi_zazen> no, your concerns are very reasonable
<mdke> as DougieRichardson says, writing a specification to outline in detail the problem that you are trying to solve, how it will be solved, and to answer any potential concerns, would go a long way to putting this on the right footing
<mdke> for example, the spec I spoke about earlier is here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BetterWikiDocs
<mdke> see how it's structured
<mdke> if you copy and paste what txwikinger said about moodle before you came in, you've got one sub-section sorted already
<bodhi_zazen> good point
<bodhi_zazen> FYI : http://paste.ubuntu.com/147415/
<mdke> ok, that's a first step, cool
<mdke> you need a detailed "Rationale" section
<bodhi_zazen> I shall ask that that information be added / updated to our wiki page ASAP
<mdke> I wonder if there could be some kind of a mockup for the site structure
<mdke> there's nothing quite like seeing an idea in action
<DougieRichardson> mdke: they have a skeleton site
<mdke> cool
<mdke> ok, I'm going to have to duck out, it's really late now
<mdke> thanks txwikinger and bodhi_zazen for the time
<mdke> DougieRichardson: surely it's past your bed time as well :)
<bodhi_zazen> mdke: thank you
<txwikinger> mdke has been a pleasure
<mdke> and thank for your work generally
<DougieRichardson> mdke: damn straight, my eyes are on stalks
 * mdke nods sleepily
<bodhi_zazen> Please, if you have questions or would like to see such things as you have mentioned, we would be happy to oblige
<bodhi_zazen> night :)
<DougieRichardson> ttfn
<mdke> bodhi_zazen: let's talk again after the specification is complete
<mdke> bodhi_zazen: maybe it could be discussed at a CC meeting, it's a perfect subject to have a good community chat about
<DougieRichardson> mdke: thanks mate
<mdke> night all
<DougieRichardson> night
<Arblegarble> Hi, I'm a new Ubuntu user and I just wanted to point out something I learned the hard way. If you use a 64 char hex key for WPA2 personal, network manager will try to use it as a passphrase instead of a literal PKI
<Arblegarble> I couldn't find an easy way to force it to use the key literally so I ended up having to change the key on my router to a passphrase to get the connection to work
<Shane_Fagan> Hey im stuck, im working on Bug #346892
<ubot4`> Launchpad bug 346892 in ubuntu-docs "games/C/games.xml:109 keymapping not input devices" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/346892
<pace_t_zulu> anyone here?
<nhandler> o/
<pace_t_zulu> sup nhandler
<pace_t_zulu> are you part of the DocumentationTeam?
<nhandler> pace_t_zulu: Not yet. Do you have a question about the doc team?
<pace_t_zulu> nhandler: i am interested in joining
<nhandler> pace_t_zulu: I would suggest sending an email to the mailing list. You can then read through the different wiki pages to learn about how to start contributing. There is also a doc team in a few hours that you should attend
<pace_t_zulu> nhandler: I have been contributing for a little while now... I would like to become more involved
<philip_> then start editing stuff ;)
<Rocket2DMn> pace_t_zulu, you can subscrive to the mailing list here - https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-doc
<pace_t_zulu> Rocket2DMn: thank you
<pace_t_zulu> philip_: I have been editing stuff actively... you will see me in the logs
<pace_t_zulu> Rocket2DMn and philip_ are either of you on the Documentation team?
<Rocket2DMn> yes
<philip_> i'm not
<pace_t_zulu> Rocket2DMn: would the first step (beyond editing community documentation) be to subscribe to the mailing list?
<Rocket2DMn> pace_t_zulu, yes, that is a logical next step.  you should consider sending an email to the list after you subscribe, just briefly introducing yourself and letting the team know that you are interested in helping.
<pace_t_zulu> Rocket2DMn: thank you for the advice... I appreciate your time
<Rocket2DMn> if there is something in particular that you want to work on, say so, otherwise you can ask for some direction
<Rocket2DMn> no problem pace_t_zulu , that's why we're here
<mdke> nhandler: yes you are!
<nhandler> mdke: Technically, yes. I am part of the students team (an open team) which is part of the doc team.
<mdke> nhandler: not just technically
<pace_t_zulu> i emailed the ubuntu-doc list
<pace_t_zulu> thanks guys for helping me
<saketh> the doc-team meeting is in 30 minutes rite?
<pace_t_zulu> saketh: will the doc-team meeting be on this channel or #ubuntu-meeting
<saketh> #ubuntu-meeting
<mdke> it's currently planned to be in this channel
<saketh> OH
<saketh> ok...
<mdke> although we may want to do it in #ubuntu-meeting in the usual way
<saketh> mhm
<saketh> well...
<saketh> is it still in 15 mins rite?
<mdke> yes
<saketh> ok... just in this channel?
<saketh> ill just join both chanels in case...
<technomensch> guess I'm a tad early
<saketh> me too...
<pace_t_zulu> is there a schedule regarding meetings? or is this something that would show up in the ubuntu-doc mailing list
<saketh> pace_t_zulu: i dunno
<pace_t_zulu> saketh: how did you know about this meeting?
<saketh> pace_t_zulu: ummm my mentor told me
<mdke> pace_t_zulu: yes, if you subscribe to the mailing list you'll get info about future meetings; you can also find the info here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/MeetingAgenda
<saketh> ok
<pace_t_zulu> mdke: i subscribed about an hour ago and sent out an email introducing myself
<mdke> great
<saketh> i agree
<pace_t_zulu> i failed to include my launchpad username on the email... apologies... my mistake
<mdke> don't worry, it doesn't matter
<mdke> welcome
<pace_t_zulu> mdke: thank you ... glad to be a part of things
<saketh> ok
<pace_t_zulu> i hope i can be an asset to the Ubuntu project
<technomensch> hey matt, sorry I've been out of touch/the loop as of late, but you know how things get.
<mdke> technomensch: sure thing
<technomensch> do you remember when we were talking about the openssh docs and getting it into the server guide?
<mdke> yeah
<saketh> yo... its  time for the meeting now rite?
<technomensch> any good recommendation on who I could work with who's familiar with the guide because after our whole mailing discussion about branches, and making changes, I'm not that big on breaking the working wheel
<mmatis> Hi Everybody. I haven't introduced myself on the list yet, but my name is Mike Matis . . . and I'm an ubuntuholic
<mdke> technomensch: sommer is the person to work with on the serverguide
<pace_t_zulu> hi Mike
<saketh> hi mike!!!!!!
<mdke> mmatis: heh, welcome
<technomensch> thanks, I'm PM him after the meeting
<pace_t_zulu> I should properly introduce myself
<cody-somerville> :]
<pace_t_zulu> Hi everyone, my name is John Haitas
<saketh> i shud too!
<saketh> HI all!
<saketh> i m saketh kasibatla
<saketh> probably the only high schooler here!
<KelvinGardiner> Good evening all. (its evening where I am anyway)
<mmatis> Hi saketh!
<saketh> hi
<mdke> I'd like to suggest that we do the meeting in #ubuntu-meeting
<pace_t_zulu> saketh: i wouldn't be certain of that... we're happy you are here just the same
<mdke> does anyone have any objections?
<saketh> same here
<saketh> nope
<pace_t_zulu> second
<DougieRichardson> can do
<saketh> yeah...
<technomensch> dougie.....long time no speak
<mmatis> see you there ...
<saketh> ok bye!
<DougieRichardson> technomensch: good to see you
<technomensch> see ya there
<mdke> mfitzhugh: hey, glad you could make it - we're meeting in the channel #ubuntu-meeting
<mfitzhugh> Cool - thanks!
<hollman> hello all, i have a question,.... i'm in Ubuntu Server 9.04
<hollman> reading https://help.ubuntu.com/community/OpenWebMail
<hollman> but openwebmail is't in the repos....
<saketh> ummm
<saketh> i use ubuntu desktop
<saketh> so i really cant answer your qtn...
<saketh> srry :(
<saketh> btw meeting in #ubuntu-meeting
<DougieRichardson> hollman: we are in a meeting but if you would like to raise a bug report I'll look into it?
<hollman> DougieRichardson, ok
<hollman> https://edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ubuntu-docs/+bugs ?
<DougieRichardson> hollman: yes please
<hollman> DougieRichardson, ;)
<hollman> DougieRichardson, https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ubuntu-docs/+bug/370996
<ubot4`> hollman: Error: This bug is private
<hollman> brb
<hollman> https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ubuntu-docs/+bug/370996
<ubot4`> Launchpad bug 370996 in ubuntu-docs "doc community webmail are wrong" [Undecided,New]
<DougieRichardson> hollman: cheers
<pace_t_zulu> mdke: you here?
<DougieRichardson> my wife thinks I'm being anti-social so I'll see everyone later
<pace_t_zulu> Kentucky Derby
<mdke> DougieRichardson: :) catch you soon
<mdke> pace_t_zulu: yep
<pace_t_zulu> DougieRichardson: later... nice meeting you
<DougieRichardson> mdke: have a good flight - see you
<mdke> thx
<pace_t_zulu> mdke: who is responsible for changing the name of ubuntu-doc-students to ubuntu-doc-contributors ?
<mdke> me
<nhandler> mdke: Sorry for missing the meeting. I'm reading through the logs now
<mdke> nhandler: no worries - we didn't quite get to your agenda item, however I think part of it is addressed by the Organization page that we discussed
<nhandler> About the low-hanging-fruit idea, what about talking to dholbach about setting up something like harvest for the Doc Team?
<mdke> nhandler: i think harvest covers our bugs too, I've used it in the past
<nhandler> mdke: It does, but if we are going to start using special tags to identify different types of bugs, we will want harvest to be able to know about those tags/bugs
<pace_t_zulu> mdke: any projection on when you can get that done?
<mdke> nhandler: I see
<nhandler> Technically, the real harvest could be updated, but I don't think our tags will really be relevant to most other packages
<mdke> pace_t_zulu: not sure, I need to read through the page again and see what needs doing
<mdke> pace_t_zulu: is there something particular that you need it for?
<pace_t_zulu> mdke: no, I am just excited about this... sorry to bug you about it...
<mdke> pace_t_zulu: it's fine. I will do it asap, there are likely to be a few links to fix around the place so I want to make sure that I don't leave anything broken
<pace_t_zulu> mdke: i have been a ubuntu user and tangential contributor for a while now and i just want to be more officially involved
<mdke> pace_t_zulu: this is a great way to get involved
<pace_t_zulu> mdke: i don't want to rush you... just like a kid on christmas w/ a new toy i guess
<mdke> :)
<mdke> nhandler: fair enough. let's get the tags sorted out and the tasks page updated, then we'll think about how we can take it to other levels
<nhandler> Sure thing. Did we decide on when the next meeting is? irclogs.ubuntu.com hasn't updated yet
<mdke> nhandler: not yet, we'll arrange it via the list
#ubuntu-doc 2009-05-03
<j1mc> hi all - i'm sorry i missed today's scheduled meeting. :/
<j1mc> i really wanted to be there. i'm at a conference, though, and got distracted.
<philip_> i knew i'd miss it so figured i'd check it out later, but now realize it did not take place in #ubuntu-doc
<philip_> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/MeetingAgenda says #ubuntu-doc but it appears meetings take place in #ubuntu-meeting
<j1mc> philip_: http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2009/05/02/%23ubuntu-meeting.html
<philip_> thanks, saw that, but you know... just saying :)
<philip_> http://zenit.senecac.on.ca/wiki/index.php/Irc can be useful when explaining irc usage
<j1mc> mdke: sorry i wasn't able to make the meeting today, but i give my +1 to the approach discussed re: repository setup on launchpad.
<j1mc> cody-somerville: ^^
<j1mc> the meeting looked very productive. thanks to everyone who participated today.
<j1mc> again, sorry i didn't make it. :(
<Shane_Fagan> j1mc: Where is the logs?
<j1mc> i'll look forward to attending and contributing during the next one.
<j1mc> Shane_Fagan: http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2009/05/02/%23ubuntu-meeting.html
<Shane_Fagan> Thanks
<j1mc> any time
<j1mc> later, all
<jgoguen> bug 352934, if I understand it right that just requires a note that a reboot is required before authenticating against the domain?
<ubot4`> Launchpad bug 352934 in ubuntu-docs "Reboot needed after domainjoin before login into Gnome as a domain user" [Wishlist,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/352934
<Shane_Fagan> DougieRichardson: could you look at Bug #371190
<ubot4`> Launchpad bug 371190 in ubuntu-docs "Rhythmbox has a tag editor musicvideophotos/c/music.xml  line 58" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/371190
<DougieRichardson> Shane_Fagan: OK whats up
<Shane_Fagan> Could you have a look at Bug #371190
<ubot4`> Launchpad bug 371190 in ubuntu-docs "Rhythmbox has a tag editor musicvideophotos/c/music.xml  line 58" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/371190
<Shane_Fagan> I included a patch I think it makes that section better
<DougieRichardson> ok
<DougieRichardson> I'm not sure if we should focus entirely on Rythmbox there is a lot of pressure to replace it with Banshee
<Shane_Fagan> I know but for the moment rhythmbox is the default
<DougieRichardson> But we're doing Karmic's docs
<Shane_Fagan> Then maybe instead of "Rhythmbox has its own tag editor" would "Rhythmbox and banshee have tag editors included" or something like that
<DougieRichardson> ok
<Shane_Fagan> I uploaded the changed patch
<DougieRichardson> OK I'll check it in later dude, I'm writing up a spec
<Rocket2DMn> mdke, is the intention to make everybody in the new ubuntu-doc-wiki-admins team a member of EditorGroup - https://help.ubuntu.com/community/EditorGroup ?
<DougieRichardson> Rocket2DMn: mdke mentioned at the meeting he was flying today so you mightn't get a response
<Rocket2DMn> thanks DougieRichardson , i'll email the list instead
<Rocket2DMn> sounds like the meeting was productive yesterday
<Rocket2DMn> sorry I missed it, I was at my LUG's Jaunty release party
<DougieRichardson> I know which I'd have attended - there were no freebies here ;-)
<jgoguen> can someone check bug 352934? if I understand it right that just requires a note that a reboot is required before authenticating against the domain?
<ubot4`> Launchpad bug 352934 in ubuntu-docs "Reboot needed after domainjoin before login into Gnome as a domain user" [Wishlist,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/352934
<jgoguen> and is it enough to just put a quick note inside a <note> section?
<Rocket2DMn> ping nhandler
<nhandler> Rocket2DMn: pong
<Rocket2DMn> hey nhandler, i subscribed you to a bug and left a note
<nhandler> Rocket2DMn: I just saw the email. I'm still trying to see if there is a bug in either Debian or Ubuntu about that. Otherwise, I'll file a needs-packaging bug
<Rocket2DMn> cool, thanks nhandler , if you leave a note on the ubuntu-docs bug with the new bug, I'll subscribe to it as well
<Rocket2DMn> Then we can leave a note on the needs-packaging bug to remind me to update the ubuntu-docs one
<nhandler> Will do Rocket2DMn
<bigilos> hello to everybody
<bigilos> greetings from greece
<nhandler> Hello bigilos
<jjesse> afternoon
<bigilos> good afternoon
<bigilos> where are you from?
<nhandler> bigilos: I'm from Chicago, Illinois (United States)
<bigilos> great
<bigilos> it is my fist time chating in room like that
<bigilos> i don t know what are we doing in here
<pace_t_zulu> Hi bigilos
<pace_t_zulu> in here we are chatting about things relevant to ubuntu documentation
<bigilos> good i am a new user of ubuntu
<bigilos> i d instal it a week before
<bigilos> and i looking for applications now
<pace_t_zulu> bigilos: what version of Ubuntu did you install?
<bigilos> 8.04
<bigilos> i downlaod a live cd first
<pace_t_zulu> bigilos: did you chose 8.04 for the long term support?
<bigilos> then i did a format on my pc
<Shane_Fagan> bigilos: You should try #ubuntu or #ubuntu-gr
<bigilos> is there a room in here?
<pace_t_zulu> !ot
<ubot4`> #ubuntu is the Ubuntu support channel, for all Ubuntu-related support questions. Please use #ubuntu-offtopic for other topics. Thanks!
<pace_t_zulu> bigilos: your search for applications might be aided by this link: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Applications
<Shane_Fagan> bigilos: #ubuntu-gr is the greek loco community
<bigilos> ok i ll do it
<pace_t_zulu> bigilos: best of luck with Ubuntu... we are happy to have you in the community
<bigilos> thank you my friends
<Shane_Fagan> bigilos: Best of luck too.
<pace_t_zulu> yassou
<pace_t_zulu> bigilos: yassou
<bigilos> yia sas
<bigilos> kalinichta
<bigilos> good night
<pace_t_zulu> bigilos kalinichta
<jjesse> nhandler: where about in chicago are you at?  i think i'll be downtown wednesday afternoon and then someplace else the rest of the week in chicago
<nhandler> jjesse: I'm actually in the suburbs in Buffalo Grove
<DougieRichardson> dougierichardson: ping
<DougieRichardson> DougieRichardson: ping
<Shane_Fagan> DougieRichardson: Why are you pinging yourself?
<DougieRichardson> osd notify in unr not working
<Shane_Fagan>  DougieRichardson: Hmm try restart it
<Shane_Fagan> Or it may be because you have the chat window open. Try use the the preview system>preferences>pop up notifications then select preview.
<Shane_Fagan> If that doesnt work try restart it in terminal
<DougieRichardson> Netbook Remix doesn't have that option
<Shane_Fagan> Ah try to end the process in system monitor and then restart it.
<DougieRichardson> also playing cod5, lol
<Shane_Fagan> Nice
<DougieRichardson> ps3 seriously needs to install punkbuster
<Shane_Fagan> DougieRichardson:  To restart it /usr/lib/notify-osd/notify-osd
<pace_t_zulu> mdke: thank you for getting that team ubuntu-doc-students renamed to ubuntu-doc-contributors so quickly
<Shane_Fagan> Maybe im a little late but what is the motive behind changing the name?
<Shane_Fagan> I read the log of the meeting but I still dont get what changing the name achieves
<pace_t_zulu> Shane_Fagan: more appropriate i guess... you can contribute without being a student
<pace_t_zulu> Shane_Fagan: i don't know... i'd prefer to be called a contributor rather than a student personally
<Shane_Fagan> I suppose it is a little better.
<Shane_Fagan> What I ment was the old saying "What is in a name?"
<jjesse> nhandler: i'll be in downers grove thrusday and friday, don't know where that is, back after dinner
#ubuntu-doc 2010-05-03
<fedesog> hi, I have a comment for the HowToMD5SUM Wiki page in the Ubuntu Documentation. Is this the right place?
<mdke> billybigrigger: we have a problem with access to the site at the moment but it will be updated asap
<mdke> fedesog: sure. In fact you can generally just go ahead and edit wiki pages as they are free to edit. If you're not sure, go ahead and ask
<mdke> DarkwingDuck_: right. When making string changes, ordinarily you need a process for updating translations too - but in kubuntu's case, I don't think translations have been updated in Lucid
<fedesog> mdke: it was about the verification of the checksum of a cd, some cd burners, like mine (Sony) pad some data (like a signature of the hardware) finalizing the cd so the md5 of the original iso and the md5sum /dev/cdrom are different. I just wanted to add a note that this method to check the cd could fail even if the cd is good and I wasn't sure if I could do it. Thanks
<mdke> fedesog: sure, go ahead. That sounds a bit odd! I suppose in that situation the best strategy is to use the software cd check?
<fedesog> mdke: it is odd, I threw away 3 cds before starting to suspect something and comparing iso and cd I saw the signature. I have another cd writer (Philips) that doesn't have the same problem. Software cd check is probably the only solution in these cases. I'll dig in the problem some more and then I'll add a note. Thank you
<mdke> fedesog: thanks for the contribution
<qp> hello to all. I would like to help with documentation, mostly with finnish language, are there any need for this?
<starcraftman> qp: I'm not sure tbh, this is the doc team page on translation > https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/Translation
<RunePhilosof> https://help.ubuntu.com/ is not up-to-date, it lists 9.10 as the latest stable version
<ausimage> Can someone help me include an image in mallard formatted file?
<ausimage> I know about the <media> tag and all but no images show when run from its directory :/
#ubuntu-doc 2010-05-05
<stulunk> when I try to install Ubuntu 10-04 the install got stop when it's come to the keyboards and I try to whrite my name
<stulunk> after that I must reboot the computer
<stulunk> I have download 2 different iso-files
<brianherman> is phil here?
<brianherman> !lastseen phil
<ubot4> Factoid 'lastseen phil' not found
<brianherman> !last phil
<ubot4> Factoid 'last phil' not found
#ubuntu-doc 2010-05-08
<ZachK_> mdke: Ping
#ubuntu-doc 2010-05-09
<Kangarooo> https://bugs.launchpad.net/malone/+bug/528550 in comment nr 2 I hope its understandable only I don't know best way to solve this. hope you will
<ubot4> Launchpad bug 528550 in malone "Launchpad should give you the option to attach your apport collected information to an existing bug (affects: 3) (dups: 1) (heat: 28)" [Low,Triaged]
<Kangarooo> problem is that using ubuntu-bug can't right now post bug report to existing bug but info how to post to existing is not seenable on top. couse its not on top seenable after using ubuntu-bug some existing bugs aren't getting update info since logically they think by choosing "this is this bug" info is not updated to existing bug but instead its lost
#ubuntu-doc 2011-05-02
<shaunm> mdke: mallard is designed to allow you to add functionality by using elements and attributes in different xml namespaces
<shaunm> mdke: e.g. the mouseovers on index.page
<shaunm> those are extensions
<Captainkrtek> hey shaunm think you could look over two pages I wrote?
<shaunm> j1mc: http://blogs.gnome.org/shaunm/tag/mallard/
<shaunm> j1mc: ^^^ facets
<shaunm> Captainkrtek: I can, but I'm not in a position to test technical accuracy
<Captainkrtek> oh okay
<Captainkrtek> well anything helps
<Captainkrtek> if anyone could as well: see the last 4 commits, https://code.launchpad.net/~steven.richards/+junk/gnome-help
<jbicha> Captainkrtek: I'll look at them now too
<Captainkrtek> thanks jbicha !
<Captainkrtek> Not sure if all the terminology is correct, haven't used unity much
<jbicha> Captainkrtek: there already is a dash search page: unity-dash-intro
<jbicha> and shell-apps-favorite is the one we're using for favoriting or pinnings apps to the launcher
<jbicha> and if you want to rename or move files, use bzr mv
<jbicha> but the rest is good I'm committing in just a moment
<Captainkrtek> thanks jbicha :)
<jbicha> mdke: oops I forgot to push an update from last night
<jbicha> is that pot thing something I should run?
<mdke> jbicha: nope, I'll do it. I'm updating the template in Launchpad after doing so
<mdke> whoops
 * mdke thanks bzr uncommit
<jbicha> ok, pushed, talk to you later
<mdke> jbicha: cheers
#ubuntu-doc 2011-05-03
<Captainkrtek> hey jbicha
<jbicha> hi, how are things
<j1mc> hi jbicha
<Captainkrtek> good
<Captainkrtek> you?
<j1mc> hey all - would appreciate input on this blueprint: https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/desktop-o-ubuntu-docs-strategy
<j1mc> i'm putting together another one for short-term goals, and will provide that link shortly.
<Captainkrtek> ill take a look j1mc
<j1mc> thanks, Captainkrtek
<Captainkrtek> I have a little bit of feedback in terms of on-disk v. online
<j1mc> sure
<Captainkrtek> I think all of it (or most) should be on disk
<Captainkrtek> in regards to all things UI, and stuff like connecting to the internet
<Captainkrtek> but for other documentation involving online technology it should be online
<Captainkrtek> to save space and only include necessary files, and maybe offer on installation levels of documentation you want included
<Captainkrtek> just a few ideas
<j1mc> thanks, Captainkrtek
<Captainkrtek> sure :)
<Captainkrtek> also think the team needs more meetings
<j1mc> yeah
<Captainkrtek> but i've only been here a week ;)
<j1mc> :)
<Captainkrtek> do we have a sort of calendar?
<Captainkrtek> with deadlines (aside from release deadlines)
<j1mc> the only thing we have is something that identifies the string freeze deadline.
<Captainkrtek> gotcha
<j1mc> but we should have one once we set our goals for the release.
<Captainkrtek> maybe do some more time management to have it all planned out along the way
<Captainkrtek> IE: get all Unity docs done by x/y/yy
<Captainkrtek> and so on
<Captainkrtek> oh also, when I get done with some other work I'm going to get to work on some more ubuntu docs, anything specific you need done or where I should focus my time?
<j1mc> hmmm... i suppose that now that we're in a soft string freeze...
<j1mc> it would be good to look ahead a bit
<Captainkrtek> okay
<Captainkrtek> is a oneiric branch up yet?
<j1mc> maybe review the oneiric goal wiki page and start thinking about what areas may interest you.
<Captainkrtek> okay :)
<j1mc> there is a link to it from the blueprint
<Captainkrtek> also have we decided on what to do with the server area?
<Captainkrtek> err server docs
<j1mc> yes, it looks like they'll be in their own branch
<Captainkrtek> cool
<Captainkrtek> do we have a team for them already
<j1mc> i think it's mostly one person
<Captainkrtek> hmm might be interested in joining them
<Captainkrtek> I know a little bit about Ubuntu Server
<j1mc> sounds good. it can be hard to find your niche at first, so . . . it's ok to try a couple of different areas.
<Captainkrtek> yeah
<Captainkrtek> I like technical writing
<Captainkrtek> I'm a writer for a site that gets a few million hits a month, that plus helping people is what I do :)
<j1mc> what's the name of the site?
<Captainkrtek> xda-developers.com
<Captainkrtek> site gets roughly 10,000 new members a day
<j1mc> neat
<Captainkrtek> Im also site staff their (Senior Moderator)
<Captainkrtek> if you need your phone rooted :)
<Captainkrtek> let me know
<j1mc> :)
<Captainkrtek> you use android?
<j1mc> yes, but just have a tmobile mytouch. it's almost two years old, and is slow.
<j1mc> i need to work on that other blueprint, but i'll be back later.
<Captainkrtek> put CyanogenMod on it
<Captainkrtek> k :)
<Captainkrtek> mdke, is work needed on https://code.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-core-doc/ubuntu-docs/oneiric-testing
<jbicha> Captainkrtek: also, GNOME upstream can use a bunch of help
<Captainkrtek> jbicha, where is that located
<jbicha> there's quite a few apps that don't have Mallard help yet, and we use almost all of their stuff so it definitely still helps Ubuntu
<Captainkrtek> I'd be glad to help :-) just point me in the direction
<jbicha> httpshttp://git.gnome.org/browse/gnome-user-docs is their User Guide
<jbicha> http://git.gnome.org/browse/gnome-user-docs
<Captainkrtek> thanks
<Captainkrtek> ahh git
<Captainkrtek> I actually prefer bzr over git
<jbicha> but help for individual programs is spread ouut
<jbicha> I thought you said you preferred git?
<Captainkrtek> meh
<Captainkrtek> after using bzr I like bzr better I think
<jbicha> and if you have questions, see #docs on irc.gnome.org
<Captainkrtek> okay great
<Captainkrtek> is it integrated into launchpad?
<jbicha> no, not really, not for this
<Captainkrtek> oh nevermind, found em
<Captainkrtek> https://launchpad.net/gnome-user-docs
<Captainkrtek> ?
<jbicha> I think it would be best to work in git rather than through a layer of abstraction
<j1mc> Captainkrtek: it is a different irc network, but you can join the #docs channel on irc.gnome.org
<Captainkrtek> okay
<j1mc> Captainkrtek: also: http://live.gnome.org/DocumentationProject
<j1mc> look for apps that need user help
<j1mc> rather, updated user help
<jbicha> http://live.gnome.org/Git/Developers
<Captainkrtek> thanks :)
<jbicha> a Fedora 15 VM can help you see which Gnome 3 apps have the older help too
<Captainkrtek> cool
<Captainkrtek> ill set one up shortly
<Captainkrtek> so we are good for now though in ubuntu-docs?
<jbicha> you might be able to clean up net-wireless-troubleshooting-device-drivers
<Captainkrtek> sure
<jbicha> it's the final page in the wireless troubleshooting guide
<Captainkrtek> wasn't that a clone of another file or something like that?
<jbicha> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/WifiDocs/WirelessTroubleShootingGuide/Drivers
<jbicha> I believe that's what you should be using to fill in that page
<Captainkrtek> okay
<Captainkrtek> so just format it for mallard
<jbicha> basically and make it work nice, j1mc ported the rest of the guide for the docs I believe
<Captainkrtek> cool
<Captainkrtek> yeah I'll include links and such
<jbicha> and then you could use that as your first patch to gnome if you like
<Captainkrtek> :)
<Captainkrtek> my launchpad only shows work in Gnome-Documentation
<Captainkrtek> https://launchpad.net/~steven.richards
<j1mc> Captainkrtek: that's because we've been doing the ubuntu docs under the gnome-user-docs branch
<j1mc> that will change for the next release when we move the docs over to ubuntu-docs
<Captainkrtek> okay gotcha
<Captainkrtek> was a bit confused
<Captainkrtek> wow 40 karma in a few days!
<Captainkrtek> jbicha, almost done porting the last wireless guide
<Captainkrtek> hey jbicha quick question
<Captainkrtek> writing up the doc, and ran into a little bump, im trying to add a little code block, but the block has <tags> in it
<Captainkrtek> and mallard thinks they are actual tags
<jbicha> what do you mean tags? why are you using them?
<Captainkrtek> trying to do
<Captainkrtek> <p><code> blacklist <drivername> </code></p>
<Captainkrtek> but <drivername> is the actual text
<jbicha> you can't use < >  in xml, you have to substitute it, let me look up the code
<Captainkrtek> thanks
<Captainkrtek> I looked in mallard
<Captainkrtek> couldn't find much
<jbicha> &lt;
<jbicha> &gt;
<Captainkrtek> thanks ;)
<Captainkrtek> where'd you find that?
<jbicha> there's 5 special ones you have to watch out for in XML
<jbicha> near the bottom of https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Character_encodings_in_HTML
<Captainkrtek> thanks
<Captainkrtek> bookmarked
<Captainkrtek> if you're going to be around for 20~30 minutes ill have this page committed
<jbicha> ok cool
<jbicha> I'm tracking down a bug I found in the gnome3 packaging
<Captainkrtek> fun :P
<Captainkrtek> im actually almost done with this doc. eta 1 minute heh
<Captainkrtek> damn this was a huge doc to port
<Captainkrtek> jbicha, http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~steven.richards/+junk/gnome-help/revision/1561
<Captainkrtek> Im off to make some dinner, brb ~20 minutes
<Captainkrtek> jbicha, how's that bug coming?
<jbicha> slow, something in GDM 3 is messing with my $PATH
<Captainkrtek> that sucks
<jbicha> something with Xsession
<Captainkrtek> I committed the last troubleshooting doc to my repo
<Captainkrtek> http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~steven.richards/+junk/gnome-help/revision/1561
<jbicha> yes I saw and I'll commit by morning
<Captainkrtek> okay great :)
<Captainkrtek> back to tex
<jbicha> if I don't figure the bug out I at least have enough info for someone else though
<Captainkrtek> yeah
<jbicha> it's kind of fun when I'm able to figure them out, I've fixed several gnome3 Ubuntu things
<Captainkrtek> nice :)
<Captainkrtek> bug hunting is fun
<Captainkrtek> im editing the ubuntu manual now
<j1mc> mdke: your day job ... you're a lawyer of some sorts, aren't you?
<j1mc> i know phill bull is a physics ph.d. student
<j1mc> and shaunm is a professional mastermind documentation hacker
<j1mc> godbyk: do you have a day job? i'm trying to get info about our diversity for the open week session
<godbyk> j1mc: Of a sort. I'm a PhD student.
<issyl0> Hi there.
<j1mc> godbyk: cool. what are you studying?
<issyl0> Ooh, the Open Week session is 17:00 UTC on Thursday?  I should be able to attend then.
<j1mc> issyl0: great!
<j1mc> godbyk: i will mention the ubuntu manual in the session. even though you're a separate project, you all still write user help for Ubuntu.
<issyl0> And if you want another for your "docs team diversity": college student, studying computing and French, interested in documentation, the English language, programming.
<issyl0> (Though I don't know if I'm considered a member of the docs team...)
<j1mc> issyl0: cool. i can include that, too.
<issyl0> (I'm probably not [yet, sadly].  I'm involved in the Ubuntu Manual though!  :-))
<j1mc> fair enough :)
<issyl0> I do try.  :-)
<Captainkrtek> hello
<Captainkrtek> hey j1mc
<j1mc> hi Captainkrtek
<Captainkrtek> hola
<j1mc> i am headed out to get some pita bread and then listen to bob dylan at a friends house. :)
<j1mc> s/friends/friend's
<Captainkrtek> sounds good
<Captainkrtek> enjoy your day :-)
<j1mc> you, too!
<Captainkrtek> thanks :)
<Captainkrtek> hey JasonO
<JasonO> Hi Captainkrtek
#ubuntu-doc 2011-05-04
<kim0> Hi, is there some markup language that generates moinmoin wiki (for w.u.c), html, and pdf easily ?
<jbicha> kim0: not sure, what do you need all of that for?
<Captainkrtek> jbicha, any pages you need focused on tonight?
<Captainkrtek> or just do whatever
<jbicha> nothing in particular, did you see my email this morning?
<Captainkrtek> umm
<Captainkrtek> let me look
<Captainkrtek> what was it titled
<jbicha> Driver doc page
<Captainkrtek> gotcha
<Captainkrtek> I can fix that
<jbicha> personally I'm mostly done with the Natty docs and we're not ready to mess with Oneiric yet
<Captainkrtek> k
<Captainkrtek> Im also starting with with ubuntu-manual
<jbicha> so I'm working with gnome 3 packaging stuff for fun, and I'll also work with Gnome upstream docs if I make time for it
<Captainkrtek> yeah I'll try to figure out the gnome stuff
<Captainkrtek> any idea when oneiric work will start?
<jbicha> Natty has 2 printing pages that need done, install a printer and set as default but it may take me a few days to get to it
<Captainkrtek> I can do that today maybe
<Captainkrtek> Ill put natty on a live cd and run it on my downstairs PC
<jbicha> oneiric can start once we get natty finalized,  starting before that means we have to merge any natty changes
<jbicha> and you can make your own branches for stuff if you want to try something different
<jbicha> or have changes that aren't ready for our main branch or something
<jbicha> a bzr shared repo would probably be handy for working with multiple branches but I haven't learned how to effectively use one yet
<Captainkrtek> was talking to j1mc yesterday
<Captainkrtek> about setting deadlines more specifically
<jbicha> the way I understand the freeze we're in now for Natty is we can still make necessary changes and we can still add content but we shouldn't make other changes
<jbicha> so as not to annoy our translators
<Captainkrtek> true
<Captainkrtek> so now just work on stuff like stubs
<jbicha> not exactly, a lot of those stubs were just for brainstorming and we don't necessarily need them now
<Captainkrtek> k
<jbicha> I was confused on that myself, the first thing I did was spend a bunch of time on the cheese stub which worked and is useful
<Captainkrtek> how long have you been working on ubuntu-docs ?
<jbicha> but we don't necessarily need the other app- stubs now, I think Gnome's idea was it was supposed to be a quick advertisement
<jbicha> with an install link or documentation link
<jbicha> a few weeks but I was interested for a year
<Captainkrtek> ahh cool
<Captainkrtek> I'm trying to pick this up quickly, appreciate the tips and pointers
<jbicha> yeah, no problem, we have to keep new contributors happy or they'll find something else to do :-)
<Captainkrtek> hehe
<Captainkrtek> feed us more hot pockets ;-)
<Captainkrtek> jbicha, one Q for you, how often do our commits get pushed to updates?
<jbicha> well, all SRUs have to get approval from the SRU team and first go to -proposed
<Captainkrtek> gotcha
<jbicha> then if enough good feedback is received on the SRU bug, it is then pushed to -updates
<Captainkrtek> how long does that usually take?
<jbicha> it could be a few days, if there's no feedback then it can even get removed from -proposed without going to -updates
<Captainkrtek> oh interesting
<Captainkrtek> still learning the ropes around here hehe
<Captainkrtek> there's a process for everything :-)
<jbicha> SRUs and backports are a bit of a hassle, it's a lot easier to get stuff fixed before release freeze
<Captainkrtek> yeah
<Captainkrtek> also, what about editing the official wiki?
<jbicha> anyone can do that, do enough good stuff and you can get wiki admin prilileges to edit restricted page or delete pages
<Captainkrtek> ahh cool :)
<Captainkrtek> was referring to: http://help.ubuntu.com/
<Captainkrtek> like the official documentation wik
<Captainkrtek> that just our .pages ?
<jbicha> https://code.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-core-doc/ubuntu-docs/help.ubuntu.com
<Captainkrtek> oh cool
<jbicha> and help.ubuntu.com pulls from there overnight or something
<Captainkrtek> ahh nice :)
<jbicha> that doesn't need SRU or anything
<Captainkrtek> very cool
<Captainkrtek> going to pull that branch
<jbicha> mdke syncs our branch with that one as needed
<Captainkrtek> gotcha
<Captainkrtek> do you work much with that branch?
<jbicha> no, it's just snapshots of the other branches
<Captainkrtek> okay
<Captainkrtek> jbicha, any projects you can reccomend to work on besides ubuntu-doc and ubuntu-manual?
<jbicha> there's the server guide, kubuntu-docs, etc.
<Captainkrtek> okay :)
<jbicha> you can find some app that needs better docs, like this one for instance:
<jbicha> https://live.gnome.org/Evolution/DocRewrite
<Captainkrtek> thanks :)
<jbicha> there are apps that no one is working on yet, so you can write the whole thing if you want
<jbicha> but you probably should work with somebody at first to help you with syntax & writing style
<Captainkrtek> just requested permissions to the gitorious
<Captainkrtek> on that app
<Captainkrtek> thanks for all the help jbicha :-)
<jbicha> I'd expect you should introduce yourself too
<Captainkrtek> in the mailing list?
<jbicha> if you're asking for commit access, the people controlling that want to know you are
<Captainkrtek> good point
<Captainkrtek> just list my experience?
<jbicha> yeah, just say who you're are, what you've done, and why you need it
<jbicha> some people like to see patches first, I don't know about this group
<Captainkrtek> "why you need it" Should I ask up front then? like "im requesting..."
<jbicha> not sure I understand you, but you should say something about why you requested commit privileges
<Captainkrtek> oh
<Captainkrtek> already sent :/
<jbicha> I meant "introduce yourself to the guys using gitorious" but it's good anyway
<Captainkrtek> ohhhhh
<Captainkrtek> whoooooops
<jbicha> because I'm not part of the Evolution docs rewrite, just mentioned it as an example
<Captainkrtek> thought you meant for the Ubuntu-docs team
<Captainkrtek> whoopsie...
<Captainkrtek> jbicha, you online?
<Captainkrtek> jbicha, if so: http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~steven.richards/+junk/gnome-help/revision/1562
<Captainkrtek> fixed that drivers page, or just check your email
<Captainkrtek> jbicha, you here?
<Captainkrtek> hey Rocket2DMn you have commit rights ?
<Rocket2DMn> hi Captainkrtek , yes i do
<Captainkrtek> could you look at this patch: http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~steven.richards/+junk/gnome-help/revision/1562
<Rocket2DMn> i'm seeing some spelling mistakes
<Captainkrtek> oh
<Captainkrtek> let me fix those
<Rocket2DMn> "that beings with" "for thee word"...
<Captainkrtek> whoops
<Rocket2DMn>  Hardward section
<Captainkrtek> ill fix all those, one sec
<Rocket2DMn>  <item><p>1. Run the command  - you dont need to number the list manualy
<Captainkrtek> Rocket2DMn, I ported this document from the official wiki
<Captainkrtek> I know, I had some issues with getting sub-lists
<Rocket2DMn> i expect you should be able to embed lists in mallard
<Captainkrtek> I tried using <tree>
<Rocket2DMn> tbh i'm not a big fan of porting much wiki documentation to the system docs, so much of it is very specific and difficult to maintain
<Captainkrtek> it was a syntax nightmare to embed it
<Captainkrtek> yeah
<Rocket2DMn> anyway, you could probably do <list><item><p><list>...
<Rocket2DMn> may not need the <p>
<Captainkrtek> tried
<Captainkrtek> didn't work
<Captainkrtek> :/
<Rocket2DMn> hmm documentation seems to indicate that you can
<Captainkrtek> I did follow the documentation
<Captainkrtek> let me try again
<Rocket2DMn> looks like there is a "type" attribute so you can number the list with "numbered" value if that's what oy uwant
<Captainkrtek> yeah
<Captainkrtek> <list type="numbered">
<Captainkrtek> im trying it again
<Rocket2DMn> i would take out all the links to the wiki anchors
<Captainkrtek> all the other wiki docs online?
<Rocket2DMn> not saying dont link to the wiki where appropriate, but were you have something like: Run the command <link href="https://help.ubuntu.com/community/WifiDocs/Wireless
<Rocket2DMn>  
<Rocket2DMn> 122
<Rocket2DMn> TroubleShootingGuide/Commands#iwlist">sudo iwlist</link>
<Captainkrtek> yeah
<Captainkrtek> true
<Rocket2DMn> not sure if that's just the diff causing problems, but i wouldnt break up a link across lines either
<Rocket2DMn> that's a rather large diff, i dont really have time to review it all right now, i literally just walked in from work when i logged in, gotta go make some dinner here shortly
<Captainkrtek> okay no problem
<Captainkrtek> ill keep working on it
<Rocket2DMn> in any case, i wouldnt let the directions get too technical, there is no need to maintain complex directions in the system docs ,you can always link to the wiki for additional support
<Rocket2DMn> common troubleshooting steps are good to have though
<Captainkrtek> yeah
<Captainkrtek> true
<Captainkrtek> ill remove some of the steps
<Rocket2DMn> like i said, i havent reviewed it all, there could be some great directions in there, it's difficult to see from the diff how complex or difficult they are to follow
#ubuntu-doc 2011-05-05
<Captainkrtek> Im getting it all fixed up
<Rocket2DMn> what yo have could be an OK level of detail
<Rocket2DMn> anyway, just keep that in mind while i go whip up some chow
<Captainkrtek> sure :-)
<Captainkrtek> okay fixed the issues, also removed a section to make it smaller
<Captainkrtek> and the links are fixed
<Captainkrtek> Rocket2DMn, when you get back, if you could look at this :) http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~steven.richards/+junk/gnome-help/revision/1563
<Captainkrtek> thanks!
<Rocket2DMn> Captainkrtek, have you tested these directions at all?
<Captainkrtek> yes
<Captainkrtek> actually used them today on an adapter
<Captainkrtek> an old fon router :-)
<Captainkrtek> Rocket2DMn, ^
<Rocket2DMn> "Search your card manufacturer's website for a Linux driver" - end in a period
<Rocket2DMn> "full information on ndiswrapper" - start with a capital letter
<Captainkrtek> k
<Rocket2DMn> "You can also go back to here to check " - on "here" there is a link.  Isn't there a way to let it show the title of the section rather than saying "here"?
<Rocket2DMn> i think there is a way of showing it automatically but i'm not 100% sure
<Captainkrtek> Im not sure
<Captainkrtek> I could just say
<Captainkrtek> You can also go back to the initial check page to check for any signs of connectivity
<Rocket2DMn> ok, we'll get bac kto that one
<Captainkrtek> k
<Rocket2DMn> "3. Run the command" - extra numbering there
<Captainkrtek> whoops
<Captainkrtek> forgot to remove that
<Captainkrtek> the lists now work
<Rocket2DMn> interface task. (note not all cards support scanning) - either put the parens before the period or drop them altogether
<Captainkrtek> k
<Rocket2DMn> There are still a bunch of links to the Command Reference page - i'm not sure if it's appropriate to keep linking the a webpage
<Captainkrtek> yeah...
<Captainkrtek> those links are useful though
<Captainkrtek> they explain the commands
<Rocket2DMn> you can include a link to the page the original source page and that one at the top of the document for reference, but don't keep linking to it
<Captainkrtek> okay
<Captainkrtek> Ill remove all those href's then
<Rocket2DMn> not everyone has internet, esp. if they are troubleshooting their network card :)
<Captainkrtek> true...
<Captainkrtek> hehe
<Captainkrtek> good point
<Captainkrtek> okay let me re-format all of this then...
<Rocket2DMn> Captainkrtek, "<link xref="net-wireless-troubleshooting-initial-check"
<Rocket2DMn> err
<Rocket2DMn> <link xref="net-wireless-troubleshooting-initial-check"/>
<Rocket2DMn> that will show the title
<Captainkrtek> oh that does it
<Captainkrtek> cool thanks :)
<Captainkrtek> okay think we are good now, let me just check it all
<Captainkrtek> only have 2 xrefs
<Captainkrtek> they link to guides on supported hardware
<Rocket2DMn> i would actually do <link xref="net-wireless-troubleshooting-initial-check#net-wireless-initial-check"/>
<Captainkrtek> k
<Captainkrtek> anything else?
<Captainkrtek> still reading it over a few times
<Rocket2DMn> some of the spacing is a little funky, but otherwise it looks pretty good
<Captainkrtek> still learning all of this ;-)
<Rocket2DMn> thats ok, youve done more mallard than i have now
<Captainkrtek> lol
<Rocket2DMn> im just basing some stuff on experience with docbook
<Captainkrtek> yeah, well you sure know more than I do
<Captainkrtek> I appreciate the help :-)
<Captainkrtek> K pushed it http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~steven.richards/+junk/gnome-help/revision/1564
<Rocket2DMn> the Check Driver section still has a bunch of links
<Captainkrtek> I just left two
<Captainkrtek> on purpose
<Captainkrtek> or do you want me to just remove those whole bits
<Rocket2DMn> i would remove them all for the commands, you can include a link to the command page at the top
<Captainkrtek> I removed em all for the commands...
<Rocket2DMn> also, section titles shouldn't be all uppercase words
<Captainkrtek> k
<Rocket2DMn> ah sorry about that links, dang yelp is caching on me
<Captainkrtek> lol
<Captainkrtek> I only left
<Captainkrtek> You can check <link href="http://sourceforge.net/apps/mediawiki/ndiswrapper/">here</link>
<Captainkrtek> to see if your card is supported by ndiswrapper.</p></item>
<Captainkrtek> and then the "full info on ndiswrapper is here"
<Captainkrtek> also replaced all <code> tags with <cmd>
<Rocket2DMn> k
<Captainkrtek> looks pretty good now...
<Captainkrtek> and ill just add a thing about the commands on the top
<Rocket2DMn> ok, cool
<Rocket2DMn> ok i need to shutdown my computer to check my memory module (i cant quite read it where it is :( )
<Rocket2DMn> gotta figure out exactly what it is, i need more, lol
<Captainkrtek> :/
<Captainkrtek> lol
<Captainkrtek> run memtest?
<Rocket2DMn> no, its not bad, i just need more of it
<Captainkrtek> ahh
<Captainkrtek> Newegg <3
<Rocket2DMn> i upgraded to 64 bit and i'm chewing up memor ylike crazy in natty
<Rocket2DMn> i keep swapping and its killing me
<Captainkrtek> hehe
<Rocket2DMn> who woulda thought 2GB wasnt enough
<Captainkrtek> Im using 2 of my 4
<Captainkrtek> flash player crashes often :P
<Captainkrtek> committing
<Rocket2DMn> i start swapping when i get to about 1.5, i use almost a GB doing nothing, what a difference sinec lucid 32 bit
<Rocket2DMn> Captainkrtek, you can do a merge request when you're finished
<Captainkrtek> sure :)
<Rocket2DMn> k, ill bbl man
<Captainkrtek> k
<Captainkrtek> hey jbicha
<jbicha> howdy, yeah I have to be careful not to run out of memory and I have 4GB!
<Captainkrtek> think you could merge something?
<Captainkrtek> launchpad keeps giving me timeout errors :(
<Captainkrtek> http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~steven.richards/ubuntu-docs/gnome-help/revision/1565
<jbicha> yeah maybe they broke Launchpad this morning
<Captainkrtek> hehe
<Captainkrtek> worked with Connor to fix up the last networking guide page
<Captainkrtek> for wireless
<Captainkrtek> jbicha, it work?
<Captainkrtek> this is the branch: lp:~steven.richards/ubuntu-docs/gnome-help
<jbicha> just a moment, on the phone
<Captainkrtek> oh okay haha
<jbicha> I switched from Gedit to Geany today
<j1mc> how's it working out? i haven't used geany in a while.
<jbicha> I don't know, haven't used it long enough, but it's got more gizmos
<jbicha> it has an XML folding mode which can help for Mallard I think
<j1mc> what does the folding do?
 * j1mc installs it :)
<jbicha> install geany-plugins too
<jbicha> I'm thinking it can help me find issues with tags not being closed faster
<j1mc> cool
<Captainkrtek> j1mc or jbicha check the ML if you have a minute
<jbicha> Captainkrtek: I'm working on your branch now, it's taking me a bit to figure out how this
<jbicha> *how to get this new-fangled text editor to work like I want it to
<Captainkrtek> lol k
<jbicha> gedit's nice for its simplicity
<jbicha> Captainkrtek: just as a head's up, you forgot the <p> in your second note so it doesn't display
<Captainkrtek> oh
<Captainkrtek> whoops
<jbicha> and your line breaks are a bit weird
<jbicha> like you put periods on the next line which isn't needed
<jbicha> I don't use new lines for tags inside paragraphs
<Captainkrtek> k
<jbicha> as it makes it more difficult for a human to read the paragraph
<Captainkrtek> im not human
<Captainkrtek> lol
<jbicha> "see below to blacklist this driver"
<jbicha> except there is no below
<Captainkrtek> oh
<Captainkrtek> forgot, we removed that part :/
<Captainkrtek> sorry
<jbicha> email sent :-)
<Captainkrtek> thanks :)
<Captainkrtek> jbicha, what do you mean wit hthe gui instructions?
<Captainkrtek> just my doc or the rest?
<jbicha> I mean the "Click the session menu and select System Settings" thing instead of Session Indicator > System Setttings
<Captainkrtek> oh
<jbicha> so which Android do you use?
<jbicha> or are you an android?
<Captainkrtek> Im on Android
<Captainkrtek> I have the HTC Thunderbolt currently
<Captainkrtek> also own the Motorola Droid 1, Samsung Fascinate, and soon to have all post-launch samsung devices
<Atamira> Captainkrtek, if you're not human, what are ya then?
<Atamira> second thoughts
<Atamira> nevermind
<Captainkrtek> Atamira, A Krtek
<Atamira> lol
<Captainkrtek> Captain of them ;-)
<Captainkrtek> jbicha, finished with the doc :)
<Captainkrtek> the final final final final changes
<Captainkrtek> jbicha, http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~steven.richards/ubuntu-docs/gnome-help/revision/1566
<jbicha> not all cards support scanning, isn't that fundamental to how a wireless net card works?
<jbicha> maybe the writer got confused with promiscuous mode
<Captainkrtek> yeah
<Captainkrtek> actually
<Captainkrtek> not all card do if i remember correctly
<jbicha> but how do they work?
<Captainkrtek> umm promiscous mode allows you to monitor networks but not connect to them I think...
<Captainkrtek> s a configuration of a network card that makes the card pass all traffic it receives to the central processing unit rather than just frames addressed to it
<Captainkrtek> so it's used for monitoring in a sense
<Captainkrtek> like packet sniffing
<Captainkrtek> and I remember not all devices support it
<jbicha> right, promiscuous is different
<jbicha> but scanning is fundamental to how wifi cards works
<Captainkrtek> yes
<Captainkrtek> wrong wording?
<jbicha> the guide doesn't care about promiscuous so the writer was confused
<Captainkrtek> yeah
<jbicha> the guide overall is confusing, it needs someone to simplify it
<Captainkrtek> yeah...
<Captainkrtek> I just ported it and tried to clarify a little bit
<jbicha> I'll still upload your part but it needs work for next cycle :-)
<Captainkrtek> I'm on it boss :-)
<Captainkrtek> The whole guide looks like a bunch of commands
<Captainkrtek> like "run this and see if you get xy"
<Captainkrtek> need to be more methodical and explain a bit of what each thing means
<jbicha> not all of which are needed, and several which are repetitive
<Captainkrtek> yes
<jbicha> I'm going to take out the Network Connections part as that gui doesn't work that way
<Captainkrtek> sure
<Captainkrtek> just reading about Ubuntu Membership..
<jbicha> maybe they mean Network Tools but that interface is too complex to mention without explanation
<jbicha> I'm finally applying for Membership this month
<Captainkrtek> nice :)
<Captainkrtek> Ill endorse it if you wish
<Captainkrtek> You've been a good teacher
<jbicha> "significant and sustained contribution" is a bit ambiguous but I think now I'm well-qualified
<jbicha> a year ago I wasn't so sure
<Captainkrtek> how long have you been working
<Captainkrtek> a few months?
<jbicha> um, it's been a few years but I'm doing more useful things now
<Captainkrtek> gotcha
<Captainkrtek> hope ill be a member someday :-)
<jbicha> what's link type="home" mean?
<Captainkrtek> umm
<Captainkrtek> not sure
<Captainkrtek> did I put that?
<jbicha> I don't know, it may have already been there, I'm fixing it though
<Captainkrtek> k
<Captainkrtek> Trying to get involved in the Evince project
<Captainkrtek> for documentation
<Captainkrtek> they use mallard :)
<jbicha> everyone in Gnome will be
<Captainkrtek> neat
<Captainkrtek> jbicha, you commit the doc yet?
<jbicha> no, I'm fighting to get the series links to work the way I want to
<Captainkrtek> okay, best of luck ;-)
<Captainkrtek> anything I can help with?
<jbicha> I'm doing ok, the documentation is a bit confusing with this but I'm emailing the mailing list about that :-)
<Captainkrtek> heh
<Captainkrtek> any other docs you need actioned?
<jbicha> we still have 2 those printer pages that I won't get to until the weekend
<Captainkrtek> I can do them tomorrow hopefully
<Captainkrtek> I can load up a live cd and test it on another box in the house
<jbicha> I seem to remember printer install being more automatic in previous Ubuntu versions, it required me to
<Captainkrtek> ea
<Captainkrtek> yeah*
<jbicha> click the driver which was pre-selected but still
<Captainkrtek> yeah i'll verify it for the team :-)
<Captainkrtek> hey j1mc :-)
<j1mc> hi Captainkrtek
<Captainkrtek> hello
<j1mc> this video is kind of blowing my mind: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FWYmEICNgOQ  :)
<Captainkrtek> lol
<Captainkrtek> j1mc, you ever see this? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xfq_A8nXMsQ
<j1mc> i think i've heard of it before
<Captainkrtek> yeah
<Captainkrtek> good speech
<j1mc> i will be in the #ubuntu-classroom chan at 1700 UTC talking about docs.
<j1mc> feel free to join and ask questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat in case i run out of things to say.  :)
#ubuntu-doc 2011-05-06
<Captainkrtek> hey
<Captainkrtek> hey jjesse and jbicha
<jbicha> Captainkrtek: https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gnome-doc-list/2011-May/msg00008.html
<Captainkrtek> very cool!
<Captainkrtek> Wish I could go :/ Finals are around that week
<jbicha> finals in June?
<Captainkrtek> ehh late may early June
<Captainkrtek> also don't have the money to travel right now :/
<Captainkrtek> brb going to go test the printer setup directions
<Captainkrtek> jbicha, got the doc nearly done for printing
<Captainkrtek> jbicha, please commit this: http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~steven.richards/ubuntu-docs/gnome-help/revision/1567
<jbicha> ok, I've merged it into my private branch & will check it again in the morning
<Captainkrtek> okay
<Captainkrtek> I just loaded up a live cd on a diff. pc with a printer
<Captainkrtek> wrote the doc from there
<jbicha> did it find the driver automatically?
<Captainkrtek> yes
<Captainkrtek> but I also wrote the part for adding it manually
<jbicha> on mine, I had to click through
<Captainkrtek> yeaha
<Captainkrtek> I made the two guides
<Captainkrtek> either auto or manual setup
<jbicha> maybe because there's 2 drivers, simple & the other one
<Captainkrtek> who knows
<jbicha> so it was half auto/half manual for me
<Captainkrtek> hmm
<Captainkrtek> odd
<Rocket2DMn> hey mdke , are you setting up for a maverick SRU?
#ubuntu-doc 2011-05-07
<j1mc> hey all - anyone around?
<shaunm> j1mc: here!
<j1mc> hey shaunm
 * shaunm raises his hand
<j1mc> how's it going?
<shaunm> oh, ok
<j1mc> did you get an email from a guy with pronovix today?
<shaunm> no. should I have?
<j1mc> i think i'm spelling that right
<j1mc> he sent a message to the syllogist email
<j1mc> his first name is kristof
<shaunm> oh, yes
<shaunm> sorry, the domain didn't ring a bell
<shaunm> I replied to him
<j1mc> he might go to the open help conference. i guess there is another conference in the netherlands that he might go to, too, though. they are close together
<shaunm> I hope he comes. I'm really interested. I fear the small size might make it not worth his while though
<j1mc> he's doing the dita drupal stuff
<j1mc> i spoke with him for a bit today. he and some folks from his group are going to go to UDS
<j1mc> he is checking out mallard, too
<Rocket2DMn> good evening gents
<j1mc> hi Rocket2DMn
<shaunm> man, if I had a bajillion dollars, I could throw something as grand as UDS
<j1mc> i know you would, shaunm. you just need to make a ton of money off of syllogist, sell the company, go into space...
<j1mc> the rest will sort itself out
<Rocket2DMn> what were those translation template import emails we got today?  i've never seen those before
<j1mc> Rocket2DMn: good question. i don't know.
<j1mc> should send a note to david / the docs ML
<Rocket2DMn> yeah i guess.  i saw matthew update the pot files for maverick, so i guess he's planning on pushing a SRU, but these templates were for lucid
<j1mc> shaunm: he seems like a cool guy, though. and the stuff they are working on seems cool, too.
<j1mc> they hope to have a demo version... something easily installable by next week.
<Rocket2DMn> maybe tat was the initial import of translations framework
<j1mc> it's kind of rough at this point, but... it something at a stage where they can get feedback.
<j1mc> Rocket2DMn: likely
<Rocket2DMn> not sure why it was started with lucid though
<j1mc> me neither
<pleia2> j1mc: congrats on sponsorship :)
<j1mc> pleia2: thanks. :)
<Rocket2DMn> i should go to a UDS sometime
<Rocket2DMn> just means i have to take the time off work
<Captainkrtek> hello
<Captainkrtek> jbicha, any docs we need to focus on?
<Captainkrtek> re-branching after your commit
<jbicha> Captainkrtek: I don't have anything on my action list for 11.04 (except looking at the printer stuff you submitted)
<Captainkrtek> k
<Captainkrtek> Ill check_status
<Captainkrtek> see if anything has been forgotten
<jbicha> I think 11.04's mostly good but you're welcome to check if there's any issues
<Captainkrtek> k
<jbicha> I'm going to ask if we should get an oneiric branch started
<Captainkrtek> time to work on ubuntu-manual, any other projects need work? never got a reply from Phil Bull RE: Evolution Docs
<Captainkrtek> err
<Captainkrtek> I dont know why I said evolution, thunderbird haha
<jbicha> Thunderbird, really?
<Captainkrtek> err
<Captainkrtek> what was it
<Captainkrtek> something like that
<jbicha> I think you mean evolution
<Captainkrtek> hmm yeah
<jbicha> yeah thunderbird like firefox uses their own website for help
<Captainkrtek> gotcha
<Captainkrtek> yeah evolution I think
<jbicha> Phil does a lot with docs, maybe he's just been busy, give him a few days
<Captainkrtek> sure
<Captainkrtek> any other projects you can think of in the meantime?
<jbicha> and you don't have to have commit access to help, you can start with submitting patches
<jbicha> what Gnome apps do you use? Check their help menu, it's easiest & more profitable to contribute to stuff you use
<Captainkrtek> was looking at evince
<jbicha> then find some gnome docs guy to help mentor you
<Captainkrtek> but they seem set..
<jbicha> evince has docs in 3.0
<Captainkrtek> what about LibreOffice?
<jbicha> LO isn't Gnome so they use a different help system entirely
<jbicha> you'll welcome to contact their docs team if you like though
<Captainkrtek> yeah
<jbicha> if you want to help Gnome, you'll probably need to have Gnome 3 installed, which may mean not Ubuntu for now
<Captainkrtek> I dont use many gnome apps at the moment
<Captainkrtek> I really only use VLC, Chrome, xchat, and eclipse haha
<Captainkrtek> and gedit
<jbicha> well Mallard is basically just Gnome, so helping out other projects would be different
<Captainkrtek> yeah
<jbicha> but the Ubuntu Docs team is more than just Gnome docs so helping out whoever is good
<jbicha> it's just that Gnome is doing a complete rewrite of their help so I think they're more needy now
<jbicha> of course we can't help everyone so pick what interests you
<Captainkrtek> gotcha...
<Captainkrtek> Ubuntu Manual is good as well
<Captainkrtek> already done a teeny bit of work with them
<jbicha> except that they're very behind, by the time their Maverick manual is released few are thinking about Maverick
<jbicha> their Natty work should transfer to Oneiric better though
<Captainkrtek> yeah true
<Captainkrtek> isnt a oneiric beta out now
<jbicha> oh no, it's only very early alpha
<Captainkrtek> gotcha
<Captainkrtek> is it using unity?
<Captainkrtek> oh also LOL: "i've been having problems accessing hotmail the last couple of days myself.
<Captainkrtek> i suspect they're having a DoS attack or the part of the net leading to hotmail is down for some reason."
<Captainkrtek> reading the Ubuntu Answers page
<jbicha> yes of course, the CD will have Unity & Unity 2D
<Captainkrtek> gotcha
<jbicha> Gnome Shell & Gnome Panel 3 will be in the repos for those who want them
<Captainkrtek> cool
<Captainkrtek> i use gnome
<jbicha> I was trying to build gnome panel 3 today but I had a build failure
<Captainkrtek> haven't tried it yet
<Captainkrtek> also found an issue with "Ubuntu Classic"
<Captainkrtek> when you use a dark background you can't read the black text at the top like "Applications" etc.
<jbicha> it's like an evolved gnome panel so it looks a little more like Gnome Shell
<Captainkrtek> is there a way to change opacity or color?
<jbicha> but the indicators don't work with it yet
<Captainkrtek> gotcha
<jbicha> switch to the ubuntu-mono-light theme
<Captainkrtek> thanks
<jbicha> or maybe that's not it
<Captainkrtek> there we go
<Captainkrtek> switched it to "dust"
<Captainkrtek> or radiance is nice
<jbicha> ok, good because development has stopped on g-p 2.32
<Captainkrtek> hmm found something interesting
<Captainkrtek> after changing themes not all of the top bar changes
<Captainkrtek> http://i.imgur.com/IkJRD.png
<jbicha> yeah it needs some kind of refresh
<Captainkrtek> yeah
<jbicha> try unity --reset maybe
<Captainkrtek> using gnome
<jbicha> oh, not unity
<jbicha> killall gnome-panel
<Captainkrtek> lol
<Captainkrtek> that just messed up everything
<jbicha> but gnome-panel should auto-restart
<Captainkrtek> hmm
<Captainkrtek> it didn't refresh
<Captainkrtek> just rebooted
<jbicha> is it still not working?
<Captainkrtek> yeah no work
<Captainkrtek> just rebooted
<Captainkrtek> didn't fix itself
<jbicha> maybe it's the transparent background thing you're using
<jbicha> turn that off in gnome-panel
<jbicha> maybe it's my oneiric install that is preventing my compiling from working
<jbicha> let me try on natty
<jbicha> very few are actually running oneiric now
<jbicha> devs might use an sbuild thingy for building oneiric packages
<Captainkrtek> jbicha, how do I get on the committers ? just keep building up my launchpad karma?
<jbicha> I don't think anyone cares about karma
<Captainkrtek> oh hahah
<jbicha> nah, the way you get commit access is to submit a bunch of useful patches that don't need much improvement
<Captainkrtek> hehe
<Captainkrtek> jbicha, the device-drivers page is still marked as review
<jbicha> right, I forgot to update that
<jbicha> some pages need work, but I think they're good enough to be 11.04 final
<Captainkrtek> cool
<jwatke4651> hey all
<mdke> hi jwatke4651
<jwatke4651> how's it going mdke
<mdke> okay
<jwatke4651> anything new going on
<mdke> no
<Captainkrtek> mornin
<mdke> hey Rocket2DMn, Captainkrtek
<Rocket2DMn> good afternoon mdke
<Captainkrtek> hey mdke :D
<Captainkrtek> good afternoon/morning
<Captainkrtek> Rocket2DMn, sorry I didn't merge request, launchpad died on me
<Rocket2DMn> no worries Captainkrtek , i was occupied for a few days, i think jbicha took care of it
<Captainkrtek> yeah he did
<Rocket2DMn> we did get merge request emails but when i tried to view them LP couldnt find the page or something weird
<Captainkrtek> yeah
<Captainkrtek> LP was acting up
<Captainkrtek> kept timing out on me
<Captainkrtek> mdke or jbicha think you could commit the printing pages I finished if you get the time?
<mdke> Captainkrtek: have they been reviewed already by someone?
<Captainkrtek> mdke, not yet
<Captainkrtek> but I confirmed them on a pc with a printer
<Captainkrtek> let me find the commit I made to my branch
<Captainkrtek> mdke, http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~steven.richards/ubuntu-docs/gnome-help/revision/1567
<mdke> Captainkrtek: that doesn't seem to merge cleanly with our current natty branch
<Captainkrtek> oh
<Captainkrtek> what's wrong
<mdke> Captainkrtek: http://paste.ubuntu.com/604558/
<Captainkrtek> hmmm
<mdke> you might want to use a separate branch for each piece of work that you do rather than pushing everything to the same branch
<mdke> it's easier for your branch to get out of sync that way
<Captainkrtek> okay
<Rocket2DMn> mdke, how would you like to handle discussions during out bug review? Do you want to just discuss them here, or would you prefer to have them on the ML?
<mdke> Rocket2DMn: normally on the bug itself I would have thought?
<Rocket2DMn> we could, it would generate a lot of mail though
<mdke> that rules the ML out too then
<mdke> but I think that irc would be difficult as people aren't around at the same time
<Rocket2DMn> yeah that's what i was worred about, most of the "Review" would just be looking at a bug and deciding what we are going to do with it, most would take just a minute
<mdke> do you anticipate a lot of discussion being required?
<Rocket2DMn> no, not really
<Rocket2DMn> I'd like to know if we want to use the new "Opinion" status for any bugs
<Rocket2DMn> we have a number of bugs that have been sitting around forever that i dont think we need to track as Wishlist, e.g. bug 47504
<ubot2> Launchpad bug 47504 in ubuntu-docs "Gender conventions notice in documents" [Wishlist,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/47504
<Rocket2DMn> no a big fan of the term "opinion" though
<mdke> Rocket2DMn: I think we should apply the same rules the bug squad uses
<Rocket2DMn> agreed, there is some gray area though
<Rocket2DMn> also the Opinion status was meant as a trial but has been around for awhile now, but i havent seen an update on their page that discusses statuses
<mdke> yeah, I guess so
<mdke> I think we can just go ahead and do our best. Agreed re "Wishlist"
<Rocket2DMn> sounds good
<Rocket2DMn> we may save some time by just asking if there are any serverguide bugs that we know we want to SRU.  After compiling a list (if any), we can move them all under the serverguide project and close the rest under ubuntu-docs that we won't SRU
<Rocket2DMn> it looks like about 40% of our bugs not in any kind of fixed state are serverguide bugs
<mdke> that makes sense. For my part I'm happy for whatever core-doc member is looking at the bug to take that decision
<Rocket2DMn> i have mixed feelings about doing SRUs for most of our bugs.  It's easy to do them and they don't cause stability issues in the package itself like code changes do, and i think documentation should be as accurate as possible.  However, it is extra work and occassionally breaks translations
<Rocket2DMn> i've been fixing a fair number of bugs in stable branches recently, but most have been for non-string changes
<mdke> I know what you mean
<mdke> I'm hoping that moving translations to the upstream project will make it easier to do SRUs
<Rocket2DMn> i dont think we've done a lot of SRUs for serverguide bugs in the past
<mdke> but I still think they should be limited to significant issues
<Rocket2DMn> agreed
<mdke> only 1800 files still to be imported :)
<Rocket2DMn> We could just move all serverguide bugs to the serverguide package and close them under ubuntu-docs (with the exception of any obvious SRUs needed).  We can always re-open them if we do decide to do a SRU
<mdke> yes, that's true. Although I suspect during the moving process is a good time to think about the issue
<mdke> otherwise we've got to go through them a second time
<mdke> perhaps move them and close them, and keep open any that "jump out" for an SRU
<mdke> although maybe we can encourage the server team to look through them once they are moved
<mdke> afk for a while
<Rocket2DMn> alright, same here, i'll bbiab
<Rocket2DMn> thanks mdke
<Rocket2DMn> back
<Rocket2DMn> mdke, i'm gonna start making my way through the serverguide bugs
<mdke> Rocket2DMn: awesome, thanks
<Rocket2DMn> mdke, just moved three or so, want to have a look? see bug 355400
<ubot2> Launchpad bug 355400 in serverguide "OpenLDAP doc page is horrible" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/355400
<mdke> looks good to me
<Rocket2DMn> cool, just starting with the oldest bugs and moving forward
<Rocket2DMn> could take a little bit
 * mdke is trying to figure out bug 690248
<ubot2> Launchpad bug 690248 in ubuntu-docs "In Maverick 'About Ubuntu' displays Natty info" [Medium,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/690248
<Rocket2DMn> ah yeah that one, i think people must just have grabbed that bad version from -proposed without knowing it (not sure how it got there to begin with)
<mdke> the ubuntu-docs package looks fine
<Rocket2DMn> are we going to be pushing a maverick SRU soon? I saw you updated the pot files, was that just for the LP import?
<mdke> the problem is in the langpacks somewhere but I don't know enough about how they work
<Rocket2DMn> hmmm, unfortunately idk much about how ubuntu handles langpacks and translations
<Captainkrtek> hey guys
<mdke> basically, the problem is that some people outside the docteam did some stupid uploads of ubuntu-docs in maverick *growls*
<mdke> and totally ignored that string changes cause problems with translations
<Rocket2DMn> who would upload a package they arent the maintainers of?
<Rocket2DMn> its a rhetorical question, i dont really care who it actually was
<mdke> well, Ubuntu doesn't really have a formal concept of maintainers - anyone can fix a bug
<mdke> and then ask for sponsorship
<mdke> still, it's a total mess
<mdke> we can fix it though
<Rocket2DMn> would the problem go away if we pushed our own SRU of ubuntu-docs?
<mdke> that's what I'm trying to find out
<Rocket2DMn> ok, i dont think there are any changes waiting to happen in the maverick branch, its probably a good time to do a SRU anyway
<mdke> but I'm pretty sure that the combination of our own SRU, and then a later langpack update, will fix it
<mdke> on your question re pot files, I was updating them in the hope that we can now use the upstream project for translation - in advance of the SRU
<mdke> so new strings can be translated there and then we can do the SRU
<Rocket2DMn> that sounds good to me, how long do you want to keep the translations open before doing the SRU?
<mdke> depends how many new strings there are
<mdke> by the way, changing entities counts as string changes
<Rocket2DMn> yeah, i would think so since it just injects the variable into the line
<Rocket2DMn> the XML processing is handled before the translation exports right?
<Rocket2DMn> the same reason we have bug 460365
<ubot2> Launchpad bug 460365 in ubuntu-docs "Create a separate license document and include it in all documents" [Wishlist,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/460365
<mdke> exactly
<Rocket2DMn> whew, this is an exhausting process
<Rocket2DMn> i think i'm about 1/2 done
<Captainkrtek> Rocket2DMn, whatcha working on?
<Rocket2DMn> Captainkrtek, moving serverguide bugs out of ubuntu-docs to the new serverguide project
<Captainkrtek> eek
<Captainkrtek> Im setting up an Ubuntu Mirror :)
<Rocket2DMn> nice
<Rocket2DMn> mirroring the repos?
<Captainkrtek> releases
<Captainkrtek> the cd images
<Rocket2DMn> ah, cool
<mdke> loving your work Rocket2DMn
<Rocket2DMn> thanks mdke , wouldnt be so bad if FF wasnt being slow
<Rocket2DMn> my FF is leaking memory like crazy since I switched to Natty
<Rocket2DMn> just upgraded my RAM today from 2 to 4 GB, so at least i'm not swapping
<mdke> beats 2GB running Ubuntu off a live usb :)
<Rocket2DMn> hehe, i can imagine
<Captainkrtek> http://i.imgur.com/rrdVa.png
<Captainkrtek> :D
<Captainkrtek> mirroring ubuntu
<jbicha> Rocket2DMn: yeah my FF4 is having difficulty keeping up too and I have 4GB so it shouldn't be an issue
<Captainkrtek> http://rootzwiki.com/ubuntu/
<Captainkrtek> new mirror up :D
<Rocket2DMn> jbicha, sometihng is leaking in it, i've heard some others complain as well
<jbicha> I think Compiz adds to the trouble
<Rocket2DMn> it could be plugins, but i'm not really sure
<jbicha> sometimes dynamic things like that new-fangled appmenu can eat up memory
<jbicha> maybe try disabling it in Firefox
<Captainkrtek> hey jbicha
<Rocket2DMn> jbicha, i havent had much time to look into the memory issues, i juist upgraded to 4GB today though, so at least i'm not swapping to disk
<jbicha> hmm, my profile is 115 MB, I wonder if that's large
<jbicha> *Firefox profile
<Rocket2DMn> hoory i'm finished!
<Rocket2DMn> geez that took almost 2 hrs
<Captainkrtek> Rocket2DMn, http://i.imgur.com/mxvXM.png hehe
<Captainkrtek> at 22gigs now
<jbicha> Captainkrtek: official CD mirror?
<Captainkrtek> jbicha, yup
<Captainkrtek> http://rootzwiki.com/ubuntu/
<jbicha> what are you using for that bandwidth meter?
<Captainkrtek> iftop
<jbicha> hmm, that shows unexpected stuff on my webserver
<Captainkrtek> ?
<jbicha> it looks like I can see traffic for other sites on my shared host
<Captainkrtek> oh weird
<Captainkrtek> haha
<Captainkrtek> Im on a dedicated box
<jbicha> which I don't think should be happening
<Captainkrtek> yeah...
<Captainkrtek> I think thats your DC's issue
<Captainkrtek> I ran it on a shared box before, no issues
#ubuntu-doc 2011-05-08
<DarkwingDuck> mdke: ping
<mdke> DarkwingDuck: (In case I'm not around at the moment, please provide a bit of information about what you want and I will respond when I get back)
<DarkwingDuck> mdke: I'm trying to learn the process of building oneiric as a new branch for kubuntu-docs and what all I need to do in LP for that. If you have it written down or, there is a wiki somewhere explaining the process I would like to learn to do this. thanks
<DarkwingDuck> mdke: nevermind, I got it for kubuntu-docs
<Captainkrtek> hey DarkwingDuck :D
<Captainkrtek> haven't talked to you in a while
<Captainkrtek> hello Madpilot
<Madpilot> hi Captainkrtek
<Captainkrtek> do you happen to know the process for a mirror to be reviewed?
<Captainkrtek> an Ubuntu mirror
<Madpilot> I don't, I'm afraid.
<Madpilot> I'm so horribly out of date on docteam procedures it's tragic
<jbicha> you just register it and wait to get approved
<Captainkrtek> okay, asked in #ubuntu-mirrors but it'd dead over there
<jbicha> you can bug the mirror mailing list if you like
<Captainkrtek> just was wondering
<Captainkrtek> nah Ill wait
<Captainkrtek> :)
<jbicha> yeah the chat channel isn't likely to be helpful
<Captainkrtek> give my server a few days to relax before the onslaught ;)
<jbicha> did you register it on launchpad?
<Captainkrtek> yup
<Captainkrtek> https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+mirror/slashdev.org
<mdke> DarkwingDuck: it's normally very straightforward, just bzr branch natty; bzr push lp:~ubuntu-core-doc/kubuntu-docs/oneiric
<DarkwingDuck> mdke: Yup, I got it.
<DarkwingDuck> :)
<DarkwingDuck> I wanted to take one less thing off your hands each release cycle
<mdke> DarkwingDuck: that's appreciated, thanks :)
<mdke> DarkwingDuck: I guess that kubuntu-docs should also move translation to the upstream project as ubuntu-docs has done. If you agree I'll take care of that
<max___> hello, I was wondering if someone could remove the IP address 85.190.27.2 at https://help.ubuntu.com/10.10/internet/C/troubleshooting-wireless.html, section two from "check DNS". I don't know how it got there ;-)
<Rocket2DMn> max___, what is that IP?
<max___> that's my private server
<max___> I don't know why it was put on this site
<Rocket2DMn> nice - is that documentation you wrote?
<Rocket2DMn> if not it was probably put there before you had the IP
<max___> I doubt that
<max___> I "own" 85.190.27.0/24 since 2004
<Rocket2DMn> hmm interesting
<max___> no, i didnt write it, i'm not affiliated with ubuntu
<Rocket2DMn> alrigtht I'll put in a bug report to have it changed to something else, it could take awhile before it makes it to the website though
<Rocket2DMn> ok max___ , i filed the report here - https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ubuntu-docs/+bug/779531
<ubot2> Launchpad bug 779531 in ubuntu-docs "Please use a different IP in Wireless troubleshooting section" [Undecided,New]
<Rocket2DMn> you can subscribe to it if you want to track its progress
<max___> thank you!
<Rocket2DMn> max___, is it a problem for you when people ping your server?
<max___> well actually not, but i don't think that especially my server is a good target to diagnose if you have a working internet connection
<Rocket2DMn> agreed, thanks for letting us know
<max___> ie., i can not guarantee that the server is always available and responsive to ICMP requests
<max___> no problem
<mdke> evening all
<Rocket2DMn> hey mdke
<Rocket2DMn> mdke, i'm looking at bug 47504 right now
<ubot2> Launchpad bug 47504 in ubuntu-docs "Gender conventions notice in documents" [Wishlist,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/47504
<Rocket2DMn> I don't see how this is really relevant to us, I would think that anybody who speaks a language fluently would know how to interpret gender usage on a page
<mdke> I have never really been sure about that bug
<Rocket2DMn> to my knowledge, it's typically a standard way of writing o use a particular gender in languages that have it
<Rocket2DMn> shouldnt need any kind of notice
<Rocket2DMn> anyway, i think it should be closed
<Rocket2DMn> i'm also looking at some other bugs, like bug 478097 - i think this belongs in the docbook-xsl package, not ubuntu-docs
<ubot2> Launchpad bug 478097 in ubuntu-docs "help.ubuntu.com claims to be XHTML 1.0 Transitional but is not" [Wishlist,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/478097
<mdke> I see plenty of books in English which have such a gender notice; but that doesn't necessarily mean that we should adopt it, and I think that it is cumbersome for one page help topics
<mdke> it doesn't seem to have been adopted upstream
<mdke> I would say that this is something that should be taken up with the developers of the markup languages or help viewers
<Rocket2DMn> I think we can close that first one as Won't Fix then, there is little pointin tracking a bug we aren't going to do anything with
<mdke> I'll do it
<Rocket2DMn> ok
<mdke> happy to take the stick for that :)
<Rocket2DMn> i was looking at the upstream docbook-xsl bugs yesterday, there were a number of reports relating to extra markup in the html, and bad validation of html
<Rocket2DMn> a lot of them had been closed though
<Rocket2DMn> we could open a new one upstream though
<mdke> Rocket2DMn: that sounds sensible to me
<mdke> hey Gwaihir
<Gwaihir> hey mdke!
<Rocket2DMn> alright mdke , i'll move it to docbook-xsl later and open a new report upstream
<mdke> Rocket2DMn: thanks
<mdke> Gwaihir: still in italia?
<Gwaihir> mdke, yes, leaving next thursday :-)
<Gwaihir> looking forward to it... really excited :-)
<mdke> congratulations on the new opportunity
<Rocket2DMn> mdke, we said earlier that we were going to close bug 734958.  the report said that he thinks it may be useful to open it from translations, but i dont think its really worth the effort to translate since the document is not supported anymore.  Do you still want to close it, or would you liketo open it from translations in Lucid?
<ubot2> Launchpad bug 734958 in ubuntu-docs "switching not translatable" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/734958
<Gwaihir> mdke, thanks :-)
<Rocket2DMn> if we want to open it for translation i'm fine with that, but we should at least make our final decision on if we will
<mdke> Rocket2DMn: I don't think so myself. I've closed it
<Rocket2DMn> ok, thanks
<mdke> who has permissions now to approve/reject release nominations?
<Rocket2DMn> mdke, i think you have the ability to accept or reject the nomination
<mdke> I seem to be able to do it, but I thought that it was by virtue of being in ~ubuntu-drivers. But I'm not in that now, and I can still do it
<mdke> yeah, I do, but I don't know why
<Rocket2DMn> even if you accept the nomination, you can still close it afterward
<Rocket2DMn> i never really liked the idea of "nominating" a bug, i think anybody in bugcontrol should be able to open a task against a release
<mdke> perhaps it is by virtue of being in bugcontrol
<mdke> but you can't do it?
<Rocket2DMn> no, i can only nominate
<Rocket2DMn> we hvae some noimations here - https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/lucid/+nominations?field.searchtext=ubuntu-docs
<mdke> will look.
<mdke> but I'm puzzled as to why I can do it and you not
<mdke> interesting, I can only accept the ones in ubuntu-docs
<mdke> must be upload rights then
<Rocket2DMn> that is interesting
<mdke> so on that list I can only approve 3 of them
<Rocket2DMn> well at least we have somebody who can do it :)
<Rocket2DMn> btw i think bug 687995 was fixed when you pushed natty docs to the website, i'm able to get official docs in search now (e.g. search for "empathy")
<ubot2> Launchpad bug 687995 in ubuntu-docs "search.html is obsolete?" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/687995
<mdke> yes, i fixed that everywhere
<mdke> revision 59
<Rocket2DMn> lol that's a great one-liner.  you're a beast mdke
<mdke> was just a sed command
<mdke> it would be nice to get control of that google search
<mdke> but I think that there may be something sensitive about it that requires a Canonical employee (i.e. Dustin)
<Rocket2DMn> i think anybody can setup search stuff like that, but it's probably tied to an administrative account at canonical
<Rocket2DMn> it looks like the same idea as just doing a "site:help.ubuntu.com mytexthere" query in google
<mdke> yeah
<mdke> getting timeouts on the lucid nomination page
<mdke> will have to try later
<Rocket2DMn> hmm, i'm able to get through
<j1mc> hi all
<j1mc> anyone around?
<mdke> yeah me and Rocket2DMn
<mdke> flight alright?
<j1mc> hey mdke
<j1mc> flights were good, but long
<mdke> wow, gnome-user-docs has been translated into Spanish 100%
<mdke> that's insane
<j1mc> by the time i wrote those emails, i had already been up over 24 hours
<j1mc> and i'm still up
<j1mc> mdke: yeah, even when we were working on gnome-docs upstream...
<mdke> ouch
<j1mc> they were translating almost as we were writing
<j1mc> they are awesome
<mdke> but we changed at least half the upstream strings I think
<j1mc> mdke: any reaction to the emails i sent out?
<j1mc> part of what i'm trying to do... i know that some of the criticism of UDS is that things seem to get decided here w/o community input
<j1mc> so i'm trying to keep everyone abrest of stuff
<mdke> j1mc: good stuff, but no particular reaction. I agree with what you said about open week
<mdke> I don't think that documentation things can be decided at UDS, there isn't enough ubuntu-doc presence. But it seems to me to be a great chance for you to get some input from non-doc people
<j1mc> yeah
<mdke> we can then discuss things afterwards at our next meeting
<j1mc> and not having much of a reaction is ok - i just want to make sure that silence isn't 'opposition in silence.'
<mdke> that DITA thing sounds interesting
<j1mc> yeah, i have watched their youtube videos, but it's a bit hard to grasp
<mdke> j1mc: no, I'm personally very happy that you took the time to write them
<mdke> j1mc: and if you can carry on, it's definitely great, although I know UDS will be tiring
<j1mc> yeah - we'll see how it goes
<mdke> but if you don't manage it, we can catch up afterwards
<j1mc> canonical folks are having a canonical-only dinner.
<j1mc> i'm in bed.  :)
<mdke> quite right
<mdke> Matt Nuzum is an awesome guy, I'm pleased you're with him
<j1mc> cool. yeah, i met some of the back-end web devs, too.
<j1mc> they all visited matt together
<j1mc> well, thanks for the encouragement
<mdke> thanks to you
<mdke> now get some rest :D
<j1mc> thanks,mdke   :)
<mdke> and enjoy the experience
<Rocket2DMn> dont forget to have fun while you're there j1mc :)
<j1mc> thanks, Rocket2DMn
<Rocket2DMn> mdke, i pushed a fix for bug 779531 in natty, i'll do the same for lucid given its LTS.  I assume you want it from maverick as well, yes?
<ubot2> Launchpad bug 779531 in ubuntu-docs "Please use a different IP in Wireless troubleshooting section" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/779531
<mdke> yes please
<mdke> I think we should do that given that the guy has specifically requested it
<Rocket2DMn> agreed
<Rocket2DMn> i'll merge the revision into lucid and maverick now
<mdke> thanks
<Rocket2DMn> mdke, is that top level status Invalid for this bug given that it doesnt exist in Oneiric?
<Rocket2DMn> i marked it as such, i think that's the proper procedure
<mdke> yes, although the version currently in oneiric has the bug, because our branch hasn't yet been uploaded
<mdke> so the version in oneiric is just the one in natty
<Rocket2DMn> i suppose that's true
<Rocket2DMn> i guess i mark it as fix committed for oneirc then since when we do push a package it wont hae the bug?
<mdke> still, it won't be true for long and help.u.c doesn't have that version, so I think it's ok
<Rocket2DMn> i'll just leave it as is
<mdke> yeah
<DarkwingDuck> mdke: nixternal normally took care of that side. im starting to learn the admin functions of the docs for kubuntu-docs. it streamlines translations?
<mdke> DarkwingDuck: yes, it should help
<mdke> DarkwingDuck: I'm happy to take care of it
<DarkwingDuck> mdke: Thank you, one request... do have the translation process written down or, what the requirements are from here on out so that I can learn and understand more?
<mdke> DarkwingDuck: yes, but (like many of our documentation) it's out of date
<DarkwingDuck> mdke: Yeah, I'm running into that a lot.
<mdke> DarkwingDuck: I will update it soon
<DarkwingDuck> mdke: We also need to have two documentation guides... You guys use Mallard on the Ubuntu side correct?
<mdke> since recently yes
<DarkwingDuck> We still use DocBook because of upstream using it.
<mdke> right
<DarkwingDuck> But, The only thing I don't understand anymore is how the translations work.
 * mdke hopes for some Gnome/KDE upstream cooperation
<DarkwingDuck> anymore/yet
<DarkwingDuck> mdke: Well, that a tough one... the licence that KDE Docs use is not compatable with CC
<mdke> that's not a problem, it's on document formatting and processing that I'm hoping for cooperation
<DarkwingDuck> mdke: what did you have in mind?
<DarkwingDuck> re cooperation?
<mdke> well, I know that shaunm has had some discussions about whether/how Mallard could be used in KDE
<mdke> and some of the work done on yelp 3 has been to make some of the technology easier to use with non-Gnome desktops
<DarkwingDuck> mdke: I love mallard. And it can be used but, I'm not sure the KDE guys want to re-write all their documentation.
<mdke> (as far as I understand it, which isn't much)
 * DarkwingDuck nods
<mdke> DarkwingDuck: I believe there is a kubuntu guy at UDS interested in documentation so hopefully he and j1mc can get together
<DarkwingDuck> It's doable and I'm all for it but, the KDE guys and balking at a rewrite
<DarkwingDuck> I'm remote participating this time around... There is a Kubuntu Wiki discussion on one of the days... maybe he will show up and I can talk to him.
<mdke> I believe there has been some interest in improving the KDE help center
<mdke> e.g. http://apachelog.wordpress.com/2011/04/28/season-of-kde-need-help-anyone/
<mdke> don't know whether it got much traction from upstream though
<DarkwingDuck> Yes, that is Harald Sitter one of our senior developers
<mdke> right, he's the guy at UDS I believe
<DarkwingDuck> For Kubuntu/KDE
<DarkwingDuck> Yes.
<DarkwingDuck> He and I work very close together.
<mdke> cool
<DarkwingDuck> I would like to see us work closer together too.
<DarkwingDuck> in re to help.ubuntu.com
<DarkwingDuck> Maybe getting the other flavors involved with that. Kubuntu, Xubuntu ect...
<mdke> ah, you mean you and I?
<mdke> sure
<DarkwingDuck> Aye, nixternal has kinda handed the project my direction
<DarkwingDuck> jjesse is fairly busy but a huge part as well
<DarkwingDuck> But, you and I have talked I think, 2 or 3 times and it was when i was applying for committer access :D
<mdke> I think this could be a good time for the team, things are quite active at the moment and if we can harnass that momentum to attract some more contributors, we should be looking good
<mdke> momentum is a cool thing
 * DarkwingDuck nods
<DarkwingDuck> That it is.
<mdke> anyway, on translation
<DarkwingDuck> Aye
<mdke> the documentation we have right now is here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/Translation
<mdke> the top section is for translators
<mdke> the bottom section is for us
 * DarkwingDuck nods
<mdke> this will get easier as we move in the next release to using Launchpad's automatic translation import/export feature
<DarkwingDuck> I think nixternal re-wrote the scripts so that it would build correctly in Kubuntu/KDE
<mdke> could be
<DarkwingDuck> He was complaining about that this last cycle.
<mdke> I missed that I think
<DarkwingDuck> I think what I'll do is bug him till he drops that on me
<DarkwingDuck> Then, I'll add the section for kubuntu-docs
<mdke> well, we don't necessarily need a separate section
<DarkwingDuck> Because I know our build varies slightly but, enough to confusing me for months till I figured it out.
<DarkwingDuck> No, intergrated.
<mdke> let's see how things go
 * DarkwingDuck nods
<mdke> ok, I'm off for a while, cya later
<DarkwingDuck> Thanks mdke for everything.
<DarkwingDuck> and we will have to start working together better :)
<shaunm> speaking of translations, I'm going to be migrating gnome's docs to the new build tools using itstool in the coming months. is this something the ubuntu crowd is interested in?
<Captainkrtek> hey guys
<Captainkrtek> hey DarkwingDuck
<Captainkrtek> hello ailo
<DarkwingDuck> Hey Captainkrtek
<Captainkrtek> hey dude :D
<Captainkrtek> how've you been?
<DarkwingDuck> Busy
<Captainkrtek> yeah I bet
<Captainkrtek> forgot you did stuff in this community
<Captainkrtek> nice to see a familiar face around here
<DarkwingDuck> Working deep with Kubuntu and writing a book
<Captainkrtek> wow!
<DarkwingDuck> Aye! It's awesome to see someone from another community over here
<Captainkrtek> :D
<Captainkrtek> Just joined here a few weeks ago
<Captainkrtek> https://launchpad.net/~steven.richards
<Captainkrtek> ^ Noob ;)
<DarkwingDuck> Not bad :D
<Captainkrtek> still noob status
<DarkwingDuck> https://launchpad.net/~david.wonderly
<Captainkrtek> ^god
<DarkwingDuck> Not really.
<Captainkrtek> you've done alot
<DarkwingDuck> Been around a couple years.
<Captainkrtek> yeah
<DarkwingDuck> Most of my work it's listed there there.
<DarkwingDuck> there/though
<DarkwingDuck> I have a lot on github and KDE
<Captainkrtek> yeah I bet
<Captainkrtek> I was getting tired of Android dev.
<Captainkrtek> too much drama
<DarkwingDuck> Yeah, it was getting drama filled.
<DarkwingDuck> here you can avoid the drama if you want.
<Captainkrtek> definetly
<Captainkrtek> way more professional
<DarkwingDuck> :D
<Captainkrtek> restricted teams and such
<DarkwingDuck> What else you getting involved with?
<Captainkrtek> umm
<Captainkrtek> Ubuntu / Gnome docs
<Captainkrtek> and Ubuntu Manual
<Captainkrtek> trying to find some other projects
 * DarkwingDuck nods
<Captainkrtek> Kubuntu docs need work?
<DarkwingDuck> A bit, I don't wan tto overload you.
<DarkwingDuck> We use DocBook instead of mallard
<Captainkrtek> Im free :P
<Captainkrtek> ahh
<Captainkrtek> need to learn that then
<Captainkrtek> im up for a challenge :)
<DarkwingDuck> But, we are going to be rebuilding our wiki
<Captainkrtek> tell me where the work is needed
<Captainkrtek> and ill do it
<DarkwingDuck> This week is a bit of  anightmare for me
<Captainkrtek> oh?
<DarkwingDuck> UDS and i'm participating remotly.
<Captainkrtek> ahh
<DarkwingDuck> So, it will be long nights for me.
<DarkwingDuck> Because UDS is in Budapest
<Captainkrtek> fun :P
<DarkwingDuck> Starts at midnight
<Captainkrtek> how are you participating
<DarkwingDuck> Midnight to 7a
<DarkwingDuck> IRC and streaming
<Captainkrtek> ahh cool
<Captainkrtek> you in California right?
<DarkwingDuck> http://uds.ubuntu.com/participate/remote/
<DarkwingDuck> Yes. San Diego
<Captainkrtek> cool
<DarkwingDuck> I think so. :D
<Captainkrtek> hehe
<Pendulum> DarkwingDuck: are you working during the day too?
<Pendulum> or do you get a chance to sleep in there? :P
<DarkwingDuck> Pendulum: I'm unemployed ATM :(
<Captainkrtek> I have to go setup a set of printers at work in a bit
<Pendulum> DarkwingDuck: *hugs*, but at least it means you get sleep this week?
<DarkwingDuck> Yup
<Captainkrtek> more time to work on Ubuntu ;)
<DarkwingDuck> And my book.
<Captainkrtek> what are you writing?
<DarkwingDuck> A book on Documentation within a community. Howto and theory
<Captainkrtek> very cool!
<DarkwingDuck> Here is the TOC http://pastebin.com/LbMyzxhx
<Captainkrtek> If you need someone else to help with that I'd be glad to
<Pendulum> DarkwingDuck: that sounds really interesting
<Captainkrtek> very cool...
<Captainkrtek> how far are you in?
<DarkwingDuck> about 65%
<Captainkrtek> wow
<Captainkrtek> anyone else writing it with you?
<DarkwingDuck> I'll be finished by mid june
<DarkwingDuck> Nope. This is my little project for some extra $$
<DarkwingDuck> I have a publisher that is interested.
<Captainkrtek> Ill be sure to buy a copy
<Captainkrtek> I know someone at the for dummies guides
<Captainkrtek> have their email somewhere...
<DarkwingDuck> I'll have it for free download online with a donate button and I'll have it sold. It's the best of both worlds
<Captainkrtek> perfect
<Captainkrtek> well congrats :)
<DarkwingDuck> :D I've been planning it for a while and now I'm finally writing it.
<Captainkrtek> that's awesome
<Captainkrtek> that'll be a huge help to the community
<Captainkrtek> and many new comers looking for how to help
<DarkwingDuck> There are a bunch of books on tech writing and a few on community but none that really bridge the gap between the two.
<shaunm> DarkwingDuck: nothing to do with markup language. itstool is for any xml format.
<Captainkrtek> and how to write documentation
<Captainkrtek> how to write helpful docs.
<DarkwingDuck> shaunm: I debated it... But because there are sooooo many languages and tools I was thinking of tossing the major ones in an appendex
<DarkwingDuck> Because each project uses differnt systems... take us for example.
<Captainkrtek> mallard, xml, docbook
<DarkwingDuck> Ubuntu-docs = Mallard / Kubuntu-docs = DocBook
<mdke> shaunm: yes, I'm interested, but we would need to get the tools packaged for Debian and into Ubuntu, I guess
<DarkwingDuck> There are 4 or 5 more that I've run into.
<shaunm> mdke: yes of course
<shaunm> DarkwingDuck: not really following the problem. what are you using right now to translate DocBook?
<mdke> we use xml2po right now
<mdke> for docbook and Mallard
<DarkwingDuck> shaunm: I misunderstood your question.
<DarkwingDuck> shaunm: sorry.
<Captainkrtek> DarkwingDuck, is there much going on in the oneiric branch for kubuntu?
<DarkwingDuck> Captainkrtek: I just set it. we will discuss more of what our plans are at UDS when the Kubuntu guys have meetings.
<Captainkrtek> gotcha
<mdke> shaunm: looks like yelp-tools isn't in debian yet
<Captainkrtek> anything else I could help with DarkwingDuck ?
<DarkwingDuck> Captainkrtek: Ask me after this week. :P
<shaunm> mdke: I made the first tarballs today
<mdke> shaunm: aha!
<DarkwingDuck> Captainkrtek: I have not started planning for Oneiric yet.
<Captainkrtek> hehe k
<mdke> shaunm: will itstool become part of yelp-tools?
<DarkwingDuck> Captainkrtek: But when I do, we have an extensive wiki ToDo list
<Captainkrtek> sure :)
<shaunm> mdke: itstool has had releases for a couple weeks, but I doubt any distros are going to pick it up until somebody (like gnome) starts using it and forcing its adoption
<Captainkrtek> if you need any help just ping me
<DarkwingDuck> Captainkrtek: I prolly will setup some things but, I'll push once this book is finished.
<shaunm> mdke: no, itstool will remain a separate package. I'm trying to keep it very general-purpose and neutral
<shaunm> releases aren't even on gnome.org
<mdke> shaunm: how come?
<Captainkrtek> okay
<Captainkrtek> also...
<Captainkrtek> just found a bug
<Captainkrtek> heh
<DarkwingDuck> Captainkrtek: ubuntu or kubuntu?
<Captainkrtek> ubuntu
<shaunm> wider adoption, easier maintenance, less bickering
<Captainkrtek> well the bug already exists sorta...
<Captainkrtek> but I have something to add
<mdke> shaunm: ok
<shaunm> mdke: looks like I'm going to be able to host it on freedesktop.org, which will be nice
<shaunm> also dependencies. yelp-tools depends on yelp-xsl for its various scripts. there's no reason itstool should have to depend on that
<mdke> gotcha
<mdke> am I right that in theory yelp-tools and yelp-xsl are also non-Gnome specific?
<Captainkrtek> is there a way to attach 2 or more screenshots?
<shaunm> mdke: right, there's nothing particularly gnome-specific about them, except that they take their name from a gnome package, and they're hosted on gnome.org
<Captainkrtek> to a bug comment
<mdke> shaunm: well, I would certainly be interested in trying the tools if we can get them packaged and into the Ubuntu archive
<shaunm> sure, I get that people want packages. I have no idea how to make that happen, though
<Rocket2DMn> hey guys, what directory are we supposed to build the oneiric docs from?
<shaunm> I've basically only ever developed on the source-tarball side of things
<mdke> in the case of UBuntu, packages normally come from debian
<DarkwingDuck> MOTU can add a package into repositories
<DarkwingDuck> As long as there is someone to maintain them.
<mdke> shaunm: our best practice is to get it into Debian first, then it comes into Ubuntu automatically
<Captainkrtek> DarkwingDuck, this bug https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/notify-osd/+bug/779612
<ubot2> Launchpad bug 779612 in notify-osd "Notifications appear vertically shifted on second monitor" [Undecided,Confirmed]
<shaunm> you patch some though, yes? I mean, your gnome 2 desktop was patched in ways that I don't think debian did
<mdke> shaunm: yes, then patches get applied on top. lots of patches
<shaunm> not that I expect any of those packages to be patched heavily by ubuntu
<DarkwingDuck> Captainkrtek: looks good.
<mdke> Rocket2DMn: how do you mean?
<Rocket2DMn> mdke, to build the html files.  i think we are building from the "html" directory, but currently it fails
<Rocket2DMn> using "make ubuntu-help"
<mdke> error msg?
<Rocket2DMn> i just get make: *** [ubuntu-help] Error 2
<Rocket2DMn> after i update the fix-urls.sh to run the sed commands using ./ instead of ../ it completes
<Captainkrtek> DarkwingDuck, just noticed that a friend published that bug
<Captainkrtek> small world
<Rocket2DMn> i do get a bunch of messages like this though:
<Rocket2DMn> cp: cannot stat `/home/connor/ubuntu_bzr/oneiric/ubuntu-help/C//usr/share/icons/gnome/22x22/apps/preferences-desktop-accessibility.png': No such file or directory
<mdke> that's not a problem
<Rocket2DMn> that's from the yelp build portion
<mdke> yes
<mdke> so the fix-urls.sh script is failing?
<Rocket2DMn> yeah it would seem so - does it work for you?
<shaunm> huh, according to what I'm seeing on packages.debian.org, debian unstable still packages its webkit port of yelp 2.30
<mdke> Rocket2DMn: no, please go ahead and fix it :)
<shaunm> doesn't fix-urls.sh run on the generated html?
<mdke> yeah
<mdke> there's a bad path in there
<shaunm> so you're going to get that warning message when converting to html
<Rocket2DMn> ok, its assuming you want the build directory to be at html/build/ rather than just at /build fro mthe top level of th eproject
<shaunm> oh, you already said "that's not a problem"
<shaunm> sorry
<mdke> yes, I think it's cleaner to have everything under the html dir Rocket2DMn
<Rocket2DMn> k
<mdke> thanks for picking that up
<Rocket2DMn> np, its committed
<Rocket2DMn> i was going to look at bug 478097 there rather than what i had been doing in natty
<ubot2> Launchpad bug 478097 in ubuntu-docs "help.ubuntu.com claims to be XHTML 1.0 Transitional but is not" [Wishlist,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/478097
<Rocket2DMn> i kinda needed to build the docs first :)
<mdke> good plan
<mdke> obviously the build tools are completely different though
<Rocket2DMn> yes, but i'll see if it's a problem.  Also isn't our top level index on h.u.c. a static page that we update manually?
<mdke> yes
<Rocket2DMn> ok, i'll check to see if we are buliding good pages, then i can update the index to validate as well
<Captainkrtek> DarkwingDuck, you have pidgin and bonjour?
<mdke> shaunm: I will ask the Ubuntu Gnome maintainers to see if they can get yelp-tools in. The debian info seems to be here: http://www.debian.org/devel/wnpp/. We might also want to try and ping the Debian Gnome team (http://wiki.debian.org/Teams/DebianGnome)
<DarkwingDuck> Captainkrtek: I don't hae those two applications, KDE uses other ones to ge tthe same job done :)
<shaunm> mdke: thanks
<Captainkrtek> gotcha
<DarkwingDuck> Captainkrtek: what did you need?
<Captainkrtek> was just confirming a bug
<DarkwingDuck> ahhhh
<Captainkrtek> not on the bug control team
<Captainkrtek> so trying to work with some bugs to be able to send an application
<Captainkrtek> DarkwingDuck, did I handle this bug properly? https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bug/779617
<ubot2> Launchpad bug 779617 in ubuntu "wont acknowledge my web camera" [Undecided,Incomplete]
<Captainkrtek> thanks ubot2 ;)
<Rocket2DMn> mdke, currently the makefile in oneiric doesnt use the variables defined at the top (LN, UBUNTUXSL).  However, it doesn't seem like there is anything in place to support building of other languages at this time
<Rocket2DMn> mdke, what do we need to do to put that framework in place? I'd like to update the makefile while i'm thinking about it, but it doesnt do any good with other languages yet, the build will fail if you specify a different langauge
<mdke> Rocket2DMn: you need to create the translated mallard documents using: ./autogen.sh; cd ubuntu-help; make
<Rocket2DMn> hmm, alright, i'll have to look into that later
<Rocket2DMn> trying to cleanup our XSL right now, it's pretty messy
<mdke> yeah?
<Rocket2DMn> it works, but its missing a lot of stuff to pass validation
<mdke> ok, thanks for looking at it
<Rocket2DMn> np, depending on what i run into i may have to table it for awhile\
<mdke> :)
<shaunm> what kind of validation problems? problems with the generated html?
<Rocket2DMn> yeah
<Rocket2DMn> the bug report we have was from when we were using docbook, and i tracked those problems down to us
<Rocket2DMn> that stuff is defunct though now that we will be using mallard for ubuntu-docs
<Rocket2DMn> the generated xml/(x)html does not include a doctype for starters
<shaunm> Rocket2DMn: yeah, the intention with yelp-xsl is that it produces html5. unfortunately, I don't really see how to output the weird html5 doctype using xslt
<shaunm> short of using disable-output-escaping, which is not a good thing to do in reusable stylesheets
<Rocket2DMn> i havent done any html5 stuff
<shaunm> I'm kind of thinking the best way is not to do it in the xslt, but rather have yelp-build do something like (echo '<!DOCTYPE html>'; xsltproc ...) > out.html
<shaunm> but that won't work using the current setup, because the yelp-xsl stylesheets assume they own all output with the exsl:document() extension
<shaunm> hrm, maybe a param to output the doctype with disable-output-escaping, off by default, turned on by the yelp-build script
<shaunm> anyway, for any validation problems that are caused by yelp-xsl, rather than ubuntu's customizations, please upstream the fixes
<Rocket2DMn> shaunm, i dont intend to make any changes to yelp-xsl myself
<Rocket2DMn> i'm not sure exactly how to proceed right now, but it does seem like we need some changes upstream
<shaunm> Rocket2DMn: just file bugs if you find problems, or let me know
<Rocket2DMn> shaunm, actually it looks like if you include the doctype <!DOCTYPE html> it doesnt get any errors, just warnings
<shaunm> warning are worth looking at as well
<Rocket2DMn> shaunm, heres the bulk of the warnings just fyi
<Rocket2DMn> The language attribute on the script element is obsolete. You can safely omit it.
<Rocket2DMn> â¦ language="javascript" src="jquery.js"></script><script type="text/javascript"â¦
#ubuntu-doc 2012-04-30
<bkerensa> mhall119: I am going to re-add a blueprints for planning on help.u.c for some reason it didnt get added the first time round
<jbicha_> bkerensa: oh, I'll be at UDS on Thursday & Friday after all
<bkerensa> jbicha_: ok good :) hoping to discuss the help.u.c stuff
<pleia2> bkerensa: I'd rather not have to hold off making edits to it until next cycle :(
<bkerensa> pleia2: Well this is a major transition
<pleia2> yeah, but leaving the documentation not updated from 10.04 for another 6 months isn't awesome
<bkerensa> pleia2: So far its just me doing all the work too but if I had volunteers then perhaps we could have in done well before Beta 1?
<Darkwing> IIRC, there will be an update that was discussed on the ML for getting updates and translations for 12.04.1
<bkerensa> pleia2: I totally agree and understand the concerns... I mean why dont you then go ahead and make the changes it was just a suggestion and either way I dont think it will hinder the transition at all much
<pleia2> some of the classes we wanted to base our work on will be held in the coming months (we could use the ubuntu manual instead, but I'd rather contribute to the official docs)
<bkerensa> pleia2: Yeah
<Darkwing> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/PrecisePangolin/ReleaseSchedule
<Darkwing> It's been updated (sorta) for doc stuff as it applies to 12.04.1
<pleia2> Darkwing: not referring to official docs, working on updating some major /community pages
<Darkwing> ahhh, my bad on that then. :D
<bkerensa> pleia2: this will be all docs
 * Darkwing needs sleep
<bkerensa> not just community but official doc too
<pleia2> bkerensa: "why don't I" - my whole email was asking if I was allowed to :)
<pleia2> I don't know the protocol
<bkerensa> pleia2: If its Community Doc then I do not see a problem
<pleia2> for background, we're putting together an ubuntu-learning class that starts with installation and I have a volunteer who wants to update https://help.ubuntu.com/community/GraphicalInstall for 12.04 (it's for 10.04 now)
<pleia2> it's a pretty major page, didn't just want to randomly run in blind and replace all screenshots and a fair amount of wording without asking ;)
<bkerensa> Doc Team would appreciate any contribution to update that then :)
<bkerensa> Assuming jbicha doesnt have any opposition
<pleia2> well the whole thread was a proposal to move it to some archived page *before* we jump in with changes
<pleia2> so there would be a lucid version and a precise version
<pleia2> so now I really don't know what to do
<bkerensa> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/Wiki/Tasks
<pleia2> yeah, I've read through a bunch of pages
<pleia2> I guess I'll wait for the result of the thread
<pleia2> thanks bkerensa
<peppe84> Hi doc team. Site map of help.ubuntu.com is up to date? I can't find item related precise. If I search the word "Ubuntu" I see only result related 8.04.
<jbicha_> peppe84: you could email rt@ubuntu.com to submit a ticket to ask the web guys to do whatever needed with Google
<jbicha_> mdke: https://help.ubuntu.com/community now uses the new theme
<forestpiskie> will it take time for the rest of the pages to catch up jbicha_ ?
<forestpiskie> that ^^ looks nice though :)
<jbicha_> forestpiskie: which page in particular?
<forestpiskie> I just followed a couple of links from the main community page - white
<forestpiskie> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Signpost/Answers#signpost
<jbicha_> forestpiskie: that page has the new theme here, maybe you need to clear your cache or something?
<forestpiskie> k
<forestpiskie> just thought I'd say :)
<forestpiskie> jbicha_: cleared cache - page looks like http://i.imgur.com/MEwWs.png
<forestpiskie> muct have been a cookie somewhere
<jbicha_> hmm, I don't know how that works, maybe make sure your theme is set to "light" at https://help.ubuntu.com/community/?action=userprefs&sub=prefs
<forestpiskie> it's ok now - cookie I assume, clearing cache did nothing - cookie did
<forestpiskie> jbicha_: sorry if I made you panic if you did :)
<jbicha_> I didn't panic yet :) but it is useful info when I get bug reports about it being broken
<forestpiskie> :)
<forestpiskie> jbicha_: had to set theme to default in prefs - kept getting logged out and then as soon as I logged in - white again, it was set to ubuntunew
#ubuntu-doc 2012-05-01
<carif_> jbicha_, did you get my email about the zh_CN images?
<jbicha_> carif: yes, let me go ahead and commit them
<carif> jbicha_, thank you, was just about to send you email. Could you also send me email, cc 'kyle.nitzsche@canonical.com' so we're all in sync? ty
<carif> jbicha_, pl send after the commit + push
#ubuntu-doc 2012-05-02
<starlocke> does http://www.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/whats-new count as a documentation responsibility...?
<head_victim> I believe it's more Canonical? If there's issues with the content I've had luck reporting bugs against website-content on launchpad before.
<head_victim> https://launchpad.net/ubuntu-website-content
<starlocke> all right. i'll go through that channel. big ecosystem we've got... lol
<head_victim> starlocke: there may be shorter options, but unless someone else pops in knowing them that's all I got sorry :) It does get there though
<critch> There are some missing parts to https://help.ubuntu.com/12.04/serverguide/ubuntucloud.html#ubuntu-cloud-install-nova.   Specifically, nova-cert has to be installed before you can manage users.
<critch> There is also no section on adding the dashboard.
<bobweaver> Hello there is there a reason why none of the wikis are working in chrome but are in firefox ?
<bobweaver> we have #ubuntu-wiki  tried his and none of us can get to page keep getting apache error
<bobweaver> or 505 or 404
<bobweaver> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/
<bobweaver> crap worng link
<bobweaver> http://imagebin.org/210639
<bobweaver> there we go
<bobweaver> someone said log out and back in again but I can not log out if I can not get to page to log out
<guntbert> I am not able to login to help.ubuntu.com/community (I am logged in to ubuntu SSO but then the site keeps me waiting "forever" and at last I get http://imagebin.org/210540 , AlanBell suggested the choice of my theme might be the cause. How can I change/reset my theme?
<bobweaver> guntbert,  we will be talking about this at are meeting in 18 minutes on #ubuntu-wiki
<guntbert> bobweaver: good to know, I will not be able to attend though but will find results in the logs :-)
<bobweaver> guntbert,  do you have lp I could send log
<bobweaver> we are new and bot has not showed up yet
<bobweaver> I will paste log in Topic
<bobweaver> of are channel :)
<guntbert> bobweaver: my LP account is guntbert, thx
<guntbert> bobweaver: how about you post a solution on the wiki itself?
<bobweaver> we will see I am going to dig like crazy today trying to fix that
<guntbert> bobweaver: :) - no worries, the immediate reason why I stumbled upon that is a "dead link" that I wanted to remove - on https://help.ubuntu.com/community/SSH/OpenSSH/Advanced, at the bottom, "Using your browser as SSH client" leads to a parking site.
<peppe84> Hi. I need an information about h.u.c/12.04/ubuntu-help/ There is a procedure that automatically updates the translations? How do you manage the upgrade process?
#ubuntu-doc 2012-05-04
<bkerensa> jbicha: does quantal boot now since the libxfont package was fixed?
<jbicha> bkerensa: yes
<bkerensa> jbicha: you totally sure :P I upgrade the other day and ended up losing data trying to revert :)
 * bkerensa will give it one more try based on your +1
<jbicha> bkerensa: it was fixed last night
<jbicha> of course, quantal is subject to a bunch of breakage especially as Debian auto-imports are running and most Ubuntu devs are still on precise
#ubuntu-doc 2012-05-05
<sary> Salutation.
<sary> Today , while i was installing ububntu on a friend machine i came across a wiki documentation
<sary> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MultimediaKeys
<sary> The "acerhk" link points to a Forbidden page.
<sary> the " KeyTouch " is not found under ubuntu 12.04 .
<MrChrisDruif> What section are you talking about sary ?
<wylde> The Keytouch link worked fine here. I'm also on 12.04. the acerhk link however does link to a $)# Forbidden page.
<wylde> err 403 Forbidden
<sary> Right.
#ubuntu-doc 2013-04-29
<crhrabal> Are all launchpad users given permission to edit wiki.ubuntu.com?  I've updated a couple outdated help.ubuntu.com pages and found that a  lot of the wiki could use a lot of work.  For whatever reason, though, the wiki.ubuntu.com page does not allow me to have access
<crhrabal> bkerensa ping
<crhrabal> I added some ideas to your pad blueprint http://pad.ubuntu.com/HAZoAmjPpu  I'm interested in helping in any way
<crhrabal> ping bkerensa
#ubuntu-doc 2013-04-30
<melodie> hello !
<melodie> is anyone around ? I'am looking for a recent doc or information relevant to the management of services (everything out there looks outdated, can't find any tool... )
<phillw> melodie: have you looked at the ubuntu server guide?
<melodie> phillw no, why ?
<melodie> is there something related to a gui in a server guide ?
<phillw> melodie: if you want a gui to services, have a look at http://www.cyberciti.biz/tips/how-to-controlling-access-to-linux-services.html please note that I have tested it and do not know if it will do as you want. Please also note that this is not a support channel. For things like services (by which I assume you mean apache, cups etc). #ubuntu-server would be a better channel. They may even be able to let you know about that link.
<phillw> *I have NOT tested it*
<melodie> phillw I mean all services : upstart jobs as well as the sysvinit services which are not yet ported to upstart and any else which could be there, if systemd is there never know... ie : zram-config service, cups service, sshd, /usr/sbin/modem-manager, and so on and so on...
<melodie> phillw I know it's not support here, but packagers : else, no one has a clue anywhere because of fast changes laste years and old gui managers don't work anymore
<melodie> so thank you
<melodie> phillw your link : by nixCraft on December 12, 2007
<phillw> melodie: either #ubuntu-server or #ubuntu-kernel are the only channels I can think of to get more information.
<melodie> I know how to seek on google, I have been searching for days and days, and trying all existing gui apps : I wanted to know if something new will arrive next :)
<melodie> thanks but I don't think this should be specific to either server or kernel. I'll try with the devs in the coming days. thanks
<phillw> sorry I cannot help more, I run a centos server although everyone on it runs server 12.04LTS in their virtual machines :)
<melodie> phillw their distro have a very decent service manager. I had a Fedora setup for a course in the hands recently and I was amazed about their job services tools
<melodie> Ubuntu team should port it to Ubuntu packages :D
<phillw> you can raise it as a wish list bug. It will get read.
<melodie> phillw I'll have to ask advice about that at the devs first. I would not know how to tell about it in a wish directly
#ubuntu-doc 2013-05-01
<MAbeeTT> Hi! I would like to suggest epubs formats for output docs.
<MAbeeTT> But first I'm commenting here, maybe there are some reasons for don't using it.
<MAbeeTT> I see there is html and pdf formats for server guide doc.
<MAbeeTT> https://bugs.launchpad.net/serverguide/+bug/1175350 done
<ubot2> Launchpad bug 1175350 in Ubuntu Server Guide "epub (or opensource ebook format needed)" [Undecided,New]
<bkerensa> MAbeeTT: html is the open source version but I will suggest the epub bug to the server guide folks
<MAbeeTT> I'm seeing .. #1157023
<MAbeeTT> I can't mark as duplicated :(
#ubuntu-doc 2014-04-29
<slickymasterWork> knome, pleia2, http://desktoplinuxreviews.com/xubuntu-reviews/xubuntu-14-04-lts/ <- not sure if you already knew about this review
<slickymasterWork> sorry, wrong channel
#ubuntu-doc 2015-05-01
<melodie> hello
<melodie> which irc chan would be the most relevant to ask detail questions related to the launchpad pages?
<slickymaster> melodie: #launchpad channel for user questions, #launchpad-dev for development
<melodie> hi slickymaster thank you
<melodie> I had looked for #ubuntu-launchpad, but I was alone and admin there, so I tought I ask here. XD
<slickymaster> np melodie
<melodie> I want to add a howto for redshift, where on the wiki can I do that please?
<melodie> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/  ? where in the wiki?
<knome> melodie, you should likely write the howto in the community help wiki at http://help.ubuntu.com/community/
<melodie> hi knome !
<melodie> knome what section would be most relevant? I don't see one that really fits
<knome> the community wiki isn't very organized
<knome> something like https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Redshift would do just fine.
<melodie> is latitude and longitude correct in English?
<melodie> right words?
<knome> yes
<melodie> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Redshift
<melodie> the new doc!
<melodie> :)
<melodie> let me know if you see improvements to bring to it, right away, that is probably my first one on this wiki
<knome> some of the headers seem to be broken
<melodie> what should I do?
<knome> remove the spaces from the end of the rows
<melodie> == Redshift ==
<melodie> ok
<knome> other than that, it looks good
<knome> now you likely want to link to it from somewhere, but that's a different question :)
<melodie> done but the preview is good and then ...
<melodie> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Redshift#preview
<knome> others can't see your preview
<melodie> there is the message about 2 persons the change has been notified to and once I close the message it reverts back
<knome> that's called caching
<knome> refresh the page :)
<melodie> no ti
<melodie> yes, done
<melodie> :D
<melodie> good now
<melodie> it should be pointed to from that page: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/CommunityHelpWiki
<melodie> but I don't see any relevant section for it
<melodie> I mean pointed to from one of the sections
<melodie> I will need an wiki expert here
<knome> we have "applications", but that's really a mess currently
<melodie> is it linked in the main home page of the community wiki?
<knome> yep
<knome> search for "applications"
<melodie> I see
<melodie> it should not be in an "installation" section, imo
<melodie> who is in charge for that page?
<knome> nobody is specifically in charge for anything - it's a wiki
<melodie> a section of it's own with name "Software" after "Hardware" would be relevant
<melodie> I will not touch that page, would be afraid to do it wrong
<knome> "applications" is what you want, and feel free to edit that page
<melodie> thanks
#ubuntu-doc 2016-05-02
<rp2> hi, is this the right place to ask how to get an Ubuntu documentation page fixed? https://help.ubuntu.com/community/FileIntegrityAIDE
<pmatulis> rp2: anything doc-related but what you gave is a wiki. you can change it yourself if you want
<rp2> I can't see how
<rp2> oh wait, I need to join a Launchpad team
<rp2> but my main problem is that I lack the breadth of knowledge required to make the fix. all I know is that some of the specific advice given there is broken for me, and has been broken for at least 7 years according to Google finds
<rp2> the https://help.ubuntu.com/community/WikiGuide doesn't tell me what to do
<rp2> I still can't edit the page after joining the group ... it is also marked Immutable
<knome> rp2, log out, then back in
<rp2> ok thx
<knome> rp2, if that doesn't work, do a hard refresh
<knome> rp2, is ~reinpost your launchpad account?
<rp2> I did, no edit buttons appear anywhere
<knome> rp2, please see my question above ^
<rp2> yes, that's my account
<knome> ok, in that case you aren't in the team but pending approval
<knome> let me approve you
<rp2> ah ok. thanks
<knome> ok, you're in the team now
<rp2> still hoping to find someone who is more familiar with AIDE though ... the package maintainer(s) did something weird with it
<knome> if reloading doesn't work, try the things i suggested above again
<rp2> thanks ... also I just found http://askubuntu.com/questions/632048/how-to-give-feedback-to-an-immutable-page-at-wiki-ubuntu-com trying to fingure out what an immutable page is
<knome> most of the pages shouldn't be immutable
<knome> if they are, first thing to try is a hard refresh to make sure you aren't hitting any cache
<rp2> knome: I can edit now! (thanks (sorry I was interrupted)
<rp2> so the term "immutable" is unfortunate if you ask me, it really means "you can't edit this page now"
<rp2> hmm, no footnote supoort?
<rp2> why can't I see any italic text?
<rp2> OK done. I really hope what I did is an improvement.
<rp2> ah.
<rp2> that was a link check sorry
<knome> rp2, glad to hear you got it sorted :)
<rp2> glad to get such help!
<CrazyLemon> hey guys
<CrazyLemon> so where can i find this string in the docs https://translations.launchpad.net/ubuntu/xenial/+source/ubuntu-docs/+pots/ubuntu-help/sl/174/+translate ?
<CrazyLemon> i don't see it
<CrazyLemon> i do see ./build/sl/addremove-install-synaptic.html:    Synaptic isn't installed by default, but you can <span class="link"><a href="https://apps.ubuntu.com/cat/applications/synaptic" title="https://apps.ubuntu.com/cat/applications/synaptic">install</a></span> it with <span class="app">Software</span>.
<CrazyLemon> this one
<CrazyLemon> anyone here that knows a thing or two about building ubuntu docs? i have a frustrating issue
<CrazyLemon> and i have no idea whats wrong
<knome> describe the issue and somebody might be able to help
<knome> !pastebin
<knome> hmm, no bot
<knome> http://paste.ubuntu.com/ is useful
<CrazyLemon> well i have a .po file with translations
<CrazyLemon> and when i build html files.. it uses english instead of translations from .po
<knome> you probably need to use another build target
<CrazyLemon> and it only happens for the translations that were recently changed/translated
<CrazyLemon> another build target? what is that and how do i do it
<knome> when you run "make", you probably want to run "make something"
<knome> i don't personally know the makefiles for the project, so i'm unable to help with that, sorry
<CrazyLemon> well make does the job.. the (a few) missing translations are the issue
<CrazyLemon> and i have no idea why its ignoring those few translations
<knome> try doing "make clean"
<knome> then "make" again
<CrazyLemon> nope
<knome> hmh.
<knome> maybe you need to run "make something" to create the translations then, not really sure
<CrazyLemon> i dont think you understand me
<CrazyLemon> it creates translations
<CrazyLemon> but a few of them are missing even tho they are in .po file
<CrazyLemon> by a few of them i mean a few strings are still in english
<knome> well, then maybe the translation templates are outdated
<CrazyLemon> where can i find those? :)
<knome> you said you didn't find a string in the documentation
<knome> they are the .pot files probably in the same directory as the .po files
<knome> there is likely a build target to update those...
<CrazyLemon> nope..no .pot files in the directory where .po files are
<knome> you don't need to poke them manually anyway
<CrazyLemon> holy sh1t this thing is so frustrating
<CrazyLemon> yea..i see the issue know
<CrazyLemon> i think its been fixed
<CrazyLemon> https://bazaar.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-core-doc/ubuntu-docs/trunk/revision/519
#ubuntu-doc 2016-05-07
<tme5> the community wiki front page has been deleted, or is missing somehow. https://help.ubuntu.com/community/CommunityHelpWiki
<tme5> kind of urgent
<pleia2> sigh
<pleia2> I'll add it to the list for the Canonical sysadmins to look into
<tme5> thank you
<pleia2> the wiki has been spammed a lot lately, so there's some cleanup that's been happening, it likely got caught up in accidental cleanup
<tme5> ah ok
