#ubuntu-doc 2005-01-10
<Kinnison> Evening
<sivang> Kinnison: hey!!!
<Kinnison> sivang: irritatingly; since upgrading to latest-hoary; I can't input in hebrew :-(
* Kinnison tries a restart in case that'll budge it
<Kinnison> bbl
<Kinnison> Hmm, that may be better
<sivang> Kinnison: you can
<sivang> Kinnison: I already got over that
<sivang> lemme see if I recall correctly.
<Kinnison>  
<Kinnison> Did that work right?
<sivang>  !
<sivang> yes!
<sivang> :)
<Kinnison> :-)
<Kinnison> Did you get my email?
<froud> He genre lo fair
<sivang> lemme check
<froud> gevre
<sivang> froud: huh?
<froud> ein li mekledet ivrit
<sivang> froud: ahh
<sivang>  
<sivang> Kinnison: froud is the latest additoin to the docteam, courtesy of the tsf :)
<Kinnison> the tsf?
<froud> he ze memash yotze be ivrit
<sivang> the shuttleworth foundation
<sivang> :)
<Kinnison> sivang: Not much is happening :-) You never told me how to reply in hebrew :-)
<froud> no of my own accord :-)
<sivang> froud: kidding
<sivang> :)
* Kinnison welcomes froud regardless of its origins ;-)
* froud thanks Kinnison 
<sivang> Kinnison: anyway, back to our bussiness
* froud goes of do some work
<mechanix> Greetings I've newly installed ubuntu on my laptop and I'm greatly impressed. I keep registering on the ubuntu website but my details are not being cached, apparently. How can I get around this?
<sivang> mechanix: there some explenation on caching somehwere..
<sivang> on the wiki I think
<mechanix> I had a look around and there was a notice about notifying on this channel.
<mechanix> Forget I mentioned this. I just tried logging in and it worked for the first time in days. I'll keep browsing the site. Well done to all those who've set all this up. 
<sivang> mechanix: thank you!
<froud> sivang, 
<froud> you know all that   stuff in userguide/old
<sivang> froud: yes?
<froud> It was from an old FAQ
* sivang looks inside
<froud> what was the intention. to move it to the new faq
<froud> ?
<sivang> lemme look, ok?
<froud> sivang, did you fall asleep :_)
<sivang> froud: almost :))
<sivang> froud: ok, this looks like there is some valuable info about it
<sivang> I say ask more people when morning comes?
<sivang> abotu 3 hours from now?:)
<froud> yes small nuggets
<froud> will you be awake then
<froud> :-)
<sivang> I hope so
<sivang> :)
<sivang> I have this huge hack to do in perl, C, and gtk 
<froud> do you ever sleep
<sivang> breal, but that should change quickly :) I am starting to loose my health :)
<froud> must sleep
<sivang> yes..
<sivang> I must
<froud> I had some time so I thought I woul dkill that old dir
<sivang> don't kill it
<sivang> let's just ignore it.
<sivang> does it hurt us to have it here?
<froud> not without moving it
<sivang> there?
<froud> once I have moved that stuff I want to kill it
<froud> files are invalid and not used by anything else
<sivang> froud: can you create a a special dir, old from under the trunk, and have mathcing dirs for everythign else which is now considred to be new?
<sivang> this is to serve us by menas of backup.
<froud> you have this in the svn
<sivang> froud: if you want to get it away off your eyes, I suggest doing that.
<froud> you can switch back and forth between revisions?
<sivang> let's check
<froud> not until I know the content is moved
<sivang> then let's wait with it for morning.
<froud> If you want to see revisions do svn log
<froud> on trunk
<froud> I started at r104
<sivang> cool
<sivang> :)
<froud> yes and you can switch between revisions
<froud> you can even switch between a branch and the trunk
<sivang> ok, if you want to move that directory then I have no reason to object anymore,
<sivang> but it's only me.
<sivang> :)
<froud> No it will be done when the work is done
<froud> the content must be moved
<froud> no pint wasting it there is some good stuff there
<sivang> froud: ok, thanks for agreeing ont hat :)
<froud> boy there is loads of junk stuff in the glossary file
* sivang looks
<froud> common/glossary.xml
<sivang> seen you email, what do you mean all "strct" changes complete?
<froud> all the major moves etc are done. people worried to do work incase they could not commit
<froud> hehe even with a doctype decl glossary xml is invalid, check this
<froud> E Unexpected element "guimenu". The content of the parent element type must match "(calloutlist|glosslist|itemizedlist|orderedlist|segmentedlist|simplelist|variablelist|caution|important|note|tip|warning|literallayout|programlisting|programlistingco|screen|screenco|screenshot|synopsis|cmdsynopsis|funcsynopsis|classsynopsis|fieldsynopsis|constructorsynopsis|destructorsynopsis|methodsynopsis|formalpara|para|simpara|address|blockquote|graphi
<froud> c|graphicco|mediaobject|mediaobjectco|informalequation|informalexample|informalfigure|informaltable|equation|example|figure|table|msgset|procedure|sidebar|qandaset|task|anchor|bridgehead|remark|highlights|abstract|authorblurb|epigraph|indexterm|beginpage)+".	glossary.xml	file:/home/sean/projects/ubuntu-docs/faq/trunk/common/glossary.xml	37:1
<froud> E Unexpected character data " (3nd Extended) is currently the "native" FS for linux. ". The content of the parent element type is element only.	glossary.xml	file:/home/sean/projects/ubuntu-docs/faq/trunk/common/glossary.xml	37:1
<froud> E The content of element type "listitem" must match "(calloutlist|glosslist|itemizedlist|orderedlist|segmentedlist|simplelist|variablelist|caution|important|note|tip|warning|literallayout|programlisting|programlistingco|screen|screenco|screenshot|synopsis|cmdsynopsis|funcsynopsis|classsynopsis|fieldsynopsis|constructorsynopsis|destructorsynopsis|methodsynopsis|formalpara|para|simpara|address|blockquote|graphic|graphicco|mediaobject|mediao
<froud> bjectco|informalequation|informalexample|informalfigure|informaltable|equation|example|figure|table|msgset|procedure|sidebar|qandaset|task|anchor|bridgehead|remark|highlights|abstract|authorblurb|epigraph|indexterm|beginpage)+".	glossary.xml	file:/home/sean/projects/ubuntu-docs/faq/trunk/common/glossary.xml	37:1
<froud> E Unexpected element "guimenu". The content of the parent element type must match "(calloutlist|glosslist|itemizedlist|orderedlist|segmentedlist|simplelist|variablelist|caution|important|note|tip|warning|literallayout|programlisting|programlistingco|screen|screenco|screenshot|
<froud> This is th ekind of stuff have been fixing across each and every document
<froud> people keep forgetting to add para inside listitems
<sivang> wow
<sivang> how do you fix something liek that?
<sivang> enrico: hi!
* sivang passes another sleepless night
<enrico> Hello!
<enrico> sivang: you need more cuddles and less computers... :)
<sivang> enrico: cuddles?
<sivang> what are these?
<enrico> sivang: you definitely need more! :)
<enrico> sivang: you also need to add the dict-applet to your panel
<sivang> https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/HeBuntu
<sivang> if you know anything about d-i, I'd love to hear how to go about it :)
<sivang> especially the preseeding stuff :)
<sivang> enrico: anywa,me off to bed.
<sivang> night!
<enrico> sivang: I have a link for you
<sivang> enrico: ok
<sivang> what is it?
<enrico> sivang: svn co svn://svn.debian.org/debian-np/people/vagrant/simple-cdd
<enrico> That's how I'd do it for Debian; it can probably be used also for Ubuntu
<sivang> enrico: ok, I will let it co overnight :)
<sivang> enrico: yes but they used "seeds" :)
<sivang> anyway, can we talk aboutu it tommorow or over email?
<enrico> sure.  Good night!
<sivang> night! (morning for me)
<sivang> :)
<enrico> [froud] : hello!
<enrico> froud: hello!
<froud> African greetings
<froud> what's up
<ChrisH> german greetings
<froud> Guten Dag Her ChrisH 
<ChrisH> froud: Hello, Africa, tell me how you're doing. :)
<froud> Fine just fine. Warm and sunny day
<enrico> froud: I'm about to reply to your mail in the list
<ChrisH> Same here... temperatures are above 0C. :)
<enrico> so you won't complain that noone answers you :)
* froud hugs and kisses enrico 
* ChrisH looks away from the gay scene
* froud sare with ChrisH , before ChrisH goes green with eny
<froud> envy
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-doc:ChrisH] : Ubuntu Documentation Team discussions | There are 0 suggestions from froud in the countdown queue
* froud points to the beginning sof the UDIP http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/UbuntuDocbookInterchangeProtocol
<enrico> fround: sent!
* enrico kisses ChrisH in the mouth
<froud> [proposal]  the maintainer of the Ubuntu Installation Guide would like to be notified of bugs we find in it. Create sub categories for all books = inst guide in bugzilla, send mail to him for Instalation Guide bugs
<enrico> froud: "the maintainer", you mean, Colin?
<enrico> makes sense to me
<froud> Yes
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-doc:froud] :  Ubuntu Documentation Team discussions | There are 0 suggestions from froud in the countdown queue
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-doc:froud] :  Ubuntu Documentation Team discussions | There are 1 suggestions from froud in the countdown queue
<ChrisH> enrico: Yikes! You italians scare me!
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-doc:ChrisH] : Ubuntu Documentation Team discussions | There are 1 proposals from froud in the countdown queue (23 hours, 57 minutes left)
<froud> [proposal]  split documentation bugzilla into installation, user, quick, faq, docbook apllication
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-doc:froud] :  Ubuntu Documentation Team discussions | There are 2 suggestions from froud in the countdown queue
<froud> what do people think about http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/UbuntuDocbookInterchangeProtocol
<enrico> I
<enrico> I'll be back in an hour or so
<enrico> froud: oh, I see what you meant with Interchange Protocol.  Nice!  I like the idea!
<enrico> Now I really will be back in an hour or so
<froud> ok Im gonna have breakfast
<froud> ChrisH, the content in userguide/old is all FAQ's did you intend to move it all to FAQGuide
<ChrisH> froud: Good question. Last time we decided to merge it into the User's Guide. But we didn't have the FAQGuide back then.
<froud> ChrisH, the general concepts can be rewritten and thus moved into UG, or we can just add them to FAQ after comparing texts on Wiki.
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-doc:froud] :  Ubuntu Documentation Team discussions | There are 3 suggestions from froud in the countdown queue
<abelli> Buon Giorno Principesse
<enrico> Hello.  Some Bugzilla experts around?
<lifeless> Fsvoe
<enrico> lifeless: hey!  Question: I've seen needs for a "installation guide" component/subproject/whatever inside the "documentation" product/component/whatever in Bugzilla
<enrico> As you can see, I have no clues of what I could do to do it
<enrico> The idea is having something representing the installation manual inside the Debian Installer package, to report bugs for Colin
<lifeless> so you want a new area to file bugs on ?
<lifeless> what you need to ask jdub for is a new 'package' called 'installation guide' in the 'documentation' product.
<Kinnison> Afternoon
<abelli> ciao
* Kinnison glares at psybnc. It seems to put + signs in a secondary connection too :-(
<enrico> lifeless: oh, ok, thanks!
* enrico mails jdub
<hornbeck> sivang: you around?
<abelli> Kinnison: ciao
<sivang> hornbeck: yeah, '
<sivang> 'sup?
<hornbeck> do you have a skype account?
<Kinnison> abelli: ciao babe
* Kinnison hugs sivang 
* sivang hugs Kinnison back
<sivang> Kinnison: hey, how are you ? :)
<sivang> hornbeck: I had one, can't remember it though
<sivang> hornbeck: can't you use voip?
* sivang has voip set up nicely through the debian sarge firewall
<sivang> :)
<hornbeck> I have not tried to set up voip
<Kinnison>  :-)
<hornbeck> is there a tutorial somewhere
<sivang> anyway , I have to get some food fast, see you all in a bunch
<hornbeck> bye
<sivang> hornbeck: basically, you should install linphone
<sivang> first learn about linphone, then I'll come back and we continue
<abelli> Kinnison: what do you think about ion?
<Kinnison> abelli: it's a reasonably competent windowmanager. I don't like it personally but it seems to be well-liked by others
<Kinnison> abelli: also; it uses Lua which makes it a plus in my books ;-)
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-doc:ChrisH] : Ubuntu Documentation Team | https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/DocumentationTeamFAQ
* mode/#ubuntu-doc [+o ChrisH]  by ChanServ
* mode/#ubuntu-doc [+t]  by ChrisH
* mode/#ubuntu-doc [-o ChrisH]  by ChrisH
<abelli> mako: "remember me" by eminem... Rincominciamoooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
<abelli> ;)
<abelli> yesterday we talked about fatx and now let me announce that btlug's xbox cluster, that used to run the first european freedom toaster, has passed to better a life, i need them for bios's d3v4st3t10n, and will be substituted by a 3,6 GFLP mini.itx cluster thank you for everything you've done for it...
<froud> ChrisH, shady now you need ops to change topic?
* froud announces there are now 3 suggestions from froud in the countdown queue. See mail list.
<froud> Hmm or is that 4 today
<Kinnison> hi abelli
<abelli> ciao Kinnison 
<abelli> how is life in ubuntu-doc tonite?
<froud> can somebody call plovs in here please
<froud> he is checking in invalid documents
<ChrisH> froud: Oops. :)
<froud> I've fixed it, but he is making markup errors
<abelli> bye im off
<abelli> ciao 
<froud> I mean its good that people are doing checkin, but now we must get them to make it valid
<froud> ChrisH, why do people do this
<froud> <para>
<froud>      some text 
<froud> </para>
<froud> why not just <para>sometext</para>
<froud> What's wrong with this
<froud> <para>
<froud> 					Applications -> Internet -> gFTP Client
<froud> 				</para>
<froud> better
<froud> <para>
<froud>                     <menuchoice>
<froud>                         <guimenu>Applications</guimenu>
<froud>                         <guimenuitem>Graphics</guimenuitem>
<froud>                         <guimenuitem>Acrobat Reader</guimenuitem>
<froud>                     </menuchoice>
<froud>                 </para>
<froud> ChrisH, where is the section General Notes, I dont have such a section in the documents, but people seem to xref to it all the time?
<ChrisH> froud: No idea. But if we don't allow syntactically incorrect postings then we will never advance. You are probably used to professional writers. These are volunteers who know DocBook for two months at max.
<ChrisH> froud: Let's first get some words - wrong as they may be - into the documents.
* sivang agrees with ChrisH 
<ChrisH> froud: Syntax is the absolutely last thing that we need to take care of at the moment. I feel like we are still on our way to a syntactically so great work that God herself would cry out loud. But no user has even one word to read.
<froud> OK, but what if I need to be off for a week on other work
<ChrisH> froud: It's not only your work. Teach the people what's wrong and how to do it better. But for heaven's sake... let's support getting text into the files!
<froud> I do
<froud> but how to teach them?
<sivang> froud: I suggest you write "How do write good docbook for the UDP" ?
<sivang> UPD = Ubuntu Documentation Projects
<froud> I thought your docbook reference was good
<sivang> froud: it'a  dcobook reference, a general one.
<ChrisH> froud: Accept that documents may be wrong. People will see if the text shows up in yelp or not. As long as it does - great. Our focus is the content - not the format.
<froud> a few small changes but it was good
<sivang> froud: maybe we could use a spefici one, with "common codeing guidelines" for the doc team?
<ChrisH> froud: I also like to have the perfect framework for the text. But we need to find a line between perfect syntax and complete documentation. :)
<sivang> that doesn't explain _how_ to do docbook, but what we exepct in our docbook
<froud> sivang, I see that as a good idea
<sivang> froud: thank you :)
* sivang would persoanlly be reading this when finished.
<ChrisH> I fear that we will - in some decades - even have a lot of documentation - that is even technically correct. But it will perhaps sound horrible because everybody is doing what he feels is right. That's another problem.
<froud> ChrisH, other projects may want to use our stuff
<ChrisH> froud: I hope so. :)
<froud> not is a poor state
<sivang> anyway, I'm in my break so c'ya laterz dudes.
<froud> we need to hit both targets
<froud> c ya
<ChrisH> froud: Yes, that's true. But there are hardly any people that have as much enthusiasm regarding the project as you have. :)
<froud> flattery gets you everywhere :-)
<ChrisH> froud: I fear that someone finally commits a file and gets chainsawed and stoned not to commit such "trash" as long as the syntax is not godlike.
<froud> No all I ask is valid and well formed
<ChrisH> We could even have people who write into the Wiki and a DocBook team that gets things from the Wiki and docboox them.
<froud> sure
<froud> enrico added some links to wiki that he thinks can be used in docbook
<froud> I think it is a good method to do this
<froud> Add URL to wiki in comments
<ChrisH> Finally we probably need a team of 5-10 contributors who are skilled in DocBook and know about which style is best for the documents.
<froud> of to bed must tackle this with clear head. good night
<froud> c ya all later
<abelli> heloooouuuuuu lifeless :)
#ubuntu-doc 2005-01-11
<sivang> enrico: hi!
<sivang> this is your morning? or evening? :)
<enrico> Hello sivang!  This is late morning (11:59 :)
<enrico> Damn!  Not morning anymore (12:00!)
<sivang> it's 6:00am for me :)
<enrico> sivang: you...need...sleep...
<sivang> enrico: ehehe, I could you some spanks from you with the notebook holder like on the conference.. it really shakes you up :)
* enrico spanks sivang with a notebook holder
* sivang shakes up out of the spanking and gets energy for some more gst code reading :)
* enrico things sivang should get energy for reaching for the bed instead :)
* enrico goes for lunch
* enrico will be out all day
<enrico> Just learnt it
<enrico> That's the fun of being a guest, it seems
<enrico> See you later (or at most, next year :)
<trickie> happy new year all... looking forward to working with everyone in 2005!
<trickie> ciao for now
* #ubuntu-doc  [freenode-info]  why register and identify?  your IRC nick is how people know you.  http://freenode.net/faq.shtml#nicksetup
<froud> message from ChrisH in svn log
<froud> First parts of the system configuration part is done. Comments
<froud> on the writing style are welcome.
<froud> If anyone else knows anything more detailed about the device
<froud> manager or on useful information about the HAL (hardware abstraction layer)
<froud> I'd be interested.
<ChrisH> Me, too. :)
<froud> African greetings
<ChrisH> Northern greetings... (presented by sleepless by the child)
<froud> Oh dear. How old
<ChrisH> 10 months...
<ChrisH> He "helped" me change a tape streamer in my server today.
<froud> :-) cool. I have three, but they are much older
<ChrisH> I wouldn't mind if he grew older, too, quickly. :)
<froud> no you dont before that age is golden. try spend as much time with him as possible
<ChrisH> I can't void spending much time because sleep is not a word on his schedule. :)
<ChrisH> Nah, he's actually fun.
<froud> yes they do that to you
<froud> ChrisH, on work. any idea what to do with the stuff on userguide/old/
<ChrisH> I'll check it out in a few minutes.
<froud> Ok also sent mail to list for ideas
* froud announces https://bugzilla.ubuntu.com/show_bug.cgi?id=5101 "fix xml base for validation and transforms" RESOLVED
<ChrisH> froud: what about "No translation available for string 'Bigliography'."?
<ChrisH> froud: And what is: I/O error : Attempt to load network entity http://www.oasis-open.org/docbook/xml/4.3/docbookx.dtd
<froud> ChrisH, that is a new one I will fix
<froud> ChrisH, install Docbook V4.3
<ChrisH> ii  docbook-xml    4.3-1ubuntu2
<froud> yes
<froud> ChrisH, the first problem  "No translation available for string 'Bigliography'." is now fixed
<ChrisH> I already had 4.3 installed. :)
<froud> I just commented the biblio out until I have a fix
<froud> do svn up on trunk
<froud> try xmllint --noout --xinclude --postvalid userguide/userguide.xml
<froud> ChrisH, then the I/O error means that your system is still trying to get the dtd from OASIS
<froud> it should not do this
<froud> Do you have  XML_CATALOG_FILES in your env
<froud> see enrico's most excellent solution in Makefile
<abelli> mako , sivang , ChrisH , asw , hornbeck , lifeless , falco , froud , skyrider BUON ANNO
<skyrider> abelli: Happy new year!
<abelli> skyrider: tank you
<froud> ChrisH, do svn and run make ug as a test you should no longer need the catalog and build should now be fast :-)
<froud> Yes,    happy new year
<froud> wow that make is now fast!!!
<lifeless> abelli: early happy new year
<abelli> lifeless: all the best to you, bazaar and arch
<abelli> and to the "big fat vaio"
<lifeless> thats jblacks :)
<lifeless> I have the hoverbook
<abelli> huu.. yeah sorry
<lifeless> (of doom)
<abelli> colins.. mm sorry
<lifeless> :)
<abelli> im doing th 35th push up out of 100...
<abelli> sorry again
<lifeless> np
* froud https://bugzilla.ubuntu.com/show_bug.cgi?id=5104 "Fix non showing ubuntu icons" FIXED
<jiyuu0> 5 more minutes to 2005... Happy New Year!
<ChrisH> jiyuu0: tell me how it is... I still have 7 hours to decide if it's worth :)
<jiyuu0> ChrisH, so far all count down celebration cancelled cause of tsunami
<ChrisH> jiyuu0: did it hit your area too?
<jiyuu0> ChrisH, i'm in middle of Malaysia... tsunami hit north of penang
<ChrisH> uh... bad to hear that
<jiyuu0> last count was 66 dead
<jiyuu0> very sad watching video on cnn
<ChrisH> the numbers of victims are really hard to understand...
<jiyuu0> really a disaster
<ChrisH> haven't watched TV and don't intend to. radio news is enough for that.
<jiyuu0> you should see... then u'll feel the pain
<jiyuu0> body stack together on the floor
<jiyuu0> HAPPY NEW YEAR! I'm in 2005
<ChrisH> I can't help it really from here but sending money. So it's now use keeping me alive at nights.
<ChrisH> HNY :)
<jiyuu0> true... here small donation is through SMS
<ChrisH> s/alive/awake
* ChrisH has a severe typing problem today
* froud posts last message for 2004. See you all in 2005. Happy New Year.
#ubuntu-doc 2005-01-12
<enrico> Happy new year!
<ChrisH> Happy new one...
<enrico> ChrisH: happy happy!
<abelli> enrico: buon anno
<abelli> buon anno a todos
<ChrisH> gracias
<ChrisH> enrico: Have you ever tried building debian package on ubuntu? I'm trying pbuilder with "--distribution sid" but end up with dependency errors.
<enrico> Buon anno!
<enrico> ChrisH: uhm... no, haven't tried yet
<enrico> however, I'm puzzled by your case
<enrico> If it's pbuilder, it should be distribution-independent, as it creates a chroot
<ChrisH> enrico: That's why I thought, too. Do you use pbuilder? Or do you have a sid installation?
<enrico> I have a sid installation, but I generally don't use pbuilder (I lack a local mirror and I had a slow laptop)
<enrico> Now I have a better laptop, but I still lack a local mirror...
<ChrisH> enrico: so you just reboot into sid, update it and build there?
<enrico> ChrisH: (I generally use sid, but don't tell anyone :)
<ChrisH> enrico: Argh, the dilemma again. :)
<enrico> My current problem is trying to share the boot partition between sid and ubuntu, since the rest of the disk is a big LVM volume group
<enrico> Once I get to do that, I can have nice elastic partitions with whatever I want hanging around happily together in the hard drive
<enrico> If it weren't for the different kernel, I could run ubuntu in a chroot
<ChrisH> You could? Even for X stuff? :)
<ChrisH> I'd like to have one system for all kinds of work. Like Ubuntu in an X window in Sid. Ubuntu ist really nice at work and for the family. But it sucks if you need to do Sid packages.
<ChrisH> I could not even get two partitions working. debian/lilo and ubuntu/grub successfully managed to kill the other distributions boot sector
<enrico> ChrisH: sure!  Even for X stuff
<enrico> startx -- :1
<ChrisH> enrico: perhaps that's a good way to build sid packages that use X in ubuntu...
<enrico> ChrisH: you can deboostrap a Debian sid system in a directory and chroot into it
<enrico> ChrisH: BTW, Hooray for the new DAM!
<enrico> ChrisH: have you heard?
<ChrisH> enrico: no... who?
<ChrisH> enrico: where did you read that? on debian-flame@l.d.o?
<enrico> ChrisH: (suspance...)
<enrico> ChrisH: ....
<enrico> :)
<enrico> ChrisH: http://lists.debian.org/debian-project/2004/12/msg00277.html
<enrico> TA-DAH!
<ChrisH> Joerg... nice. :)
<enrico> 9 new people got an account yesterday
<ChrisH> I'm no position 5 :)
<ChrisH> s/no/on/
<enrico> ChrisH: I know you'll make it! :)
* enrico massages ChrisH for the final run
<abelli> enrico: do you use pterm?
<ChrisH> enrico: :)
<enrico> abelli: uh, no, just gnome-terminal
<abelli> because i think i found something similar to a bug
<abelli> if u press ""
<abelli> and then arrows up-down repeatedly ... the screen gets deleted char by char..
<enrico> Cute!
<enrico> FAIL A BAG!
<abelli> ya
<abelli> ehehe
<enrico> reportbug is DA ZING!
<abelli> ahah
<abelli> verflixt
<enrico> hello
<enrico> I did svn up, then yelp usersguide.xml
<enrico> but yelp tells me it can't open the document
<enrico> Curious.  If I close other yelps then try again it works
* Kinnison yawns a good afternoon to everyone
<ChrisH> Kinnison: happy gnu one 2u2
<Kinnison> Hippy New Beer ChrisH
<abelli> ciao Kinnison 
* Kinnison hands out 2005 huggles
* enrico hands out 2005 cookies
<abelli> Kinnison: did you receive the email?
<Kinnison> abelli: yes; and I replied too
<abelli> is it a known bug.. or isnt it a bug at all?
<Kinnison> You've not given me enough data to know if it's a known bug or not yet ;-)
<abelli> ahh..ok
<abelli> more than photos.. what do you want? ;)
<abelli> actually i had a thought about that..
<abelli> because you anglo-saxons...
<abelli> you have such a restricted alphabet ;)
<Kinnison> Charmed I'm sure
<abelli> ...
<abelli> what do you mean "if you have one and not the other"?
<Kinnison> If you have my font choice; but not a unicode locale; or a unicode locale but not my font choice
<abelli> ok thank you Kinnison 
<abelli> kinnison what's the pterm way for gterminal's --working-directory
<Kinnison> How do you mean?
<Kinnison> It may not have one
<abelli> arghh..
<abelli> Perl.. Power..
<sivang> Kinnison: happy new year!
<sivang> and to all the doc tam
<abelli> sivang: thank you for leaving me out
<Kinnison> hey sivang ;-)
<sivang> abelli: huh?
<Kinnison> 
<sivang>  !
<abelli> i thik my pterm has really some major problem
<Kinnison> sivang: How would you translate  then?
<sivang> Kinnison: my freind :)
<Kinnison> I see
<sivang> it's like, "Greetings, My freind"
<abelli> sivang: could you please come again with those characters
<abelli> ;)
<sivang> abelli:   !
<sivang> :)
<abelli> argh..
<sivang> translation: no problem at all!
<froud> African Greetings
<froud> anybody tried the makefile. I am eager know if there are any problems
<hornbeck> I have not tried it
<froud> hornbeck, do give it a test
<froud> svn up
<froud> make ug
<sivang> Why do I need channel op to change topic?
<sivang> Isn't this a cummunity channel? :)
* sivang wishes to change the topic back to the origianl one.
<sivang> ChrisH: could you give me op privs for the channel ?
<froud> sivang, ChrisH is annoyed with me when I changed the subject
<sivang> froud: yes, but I already asked him about chaning the subject back to the original and he agreed.
<froud> Oh well
<froud> sivang, hows your shell scripting
<sivang> froud: I can pull a couple of them when I need it , a bit rusty at the moment, but working closely to a reference I manage :)
<froud> How do I get this type of variable to work
<froud> VERSION=`cat VERSION`
<froud> tar -czf ubuntu-docs-$(VERSION)-$(RELEASE).tar.gz dist
<froud> I get 
<froud> Compressing source files ...
<froud> tar -czf ubuntu-docs-`cat VERSION`-1.tar.gz dist
<froud> tar: Options `-[0-7] [lmh] ' not supported by *this* tar
<sivang> something bad with your backtiques
<sivang> lemme check
<sivang> thsi was supposed to work I think.
<froud> that is what I thought
<sivang> TEST="`cat VERSION`"
<sivang> echo $TEST
<sivang> check if this works
<froud> sivang, nice. thanks :-)
<sivang> froud: no prob :)
<froud> ubuntu-docs-WartyWarthog-1.tar.gz
<sivang> yes
<sivang> if you're unsure, just have the bash do double qutes expansion which means it tries to evaluate eveything inside,
<sivang> so then you get the value of the backtiques as if it was a var value.
<sivang> plus. TIMTOWTDI
<sivang> :)
* sivang hides from ChrisH as he probably got the acronym wrong
<froud> cool, will this also work if I define SHELL = /bin/sh
<ChrisH> sivang: I do know Perl. So I know that acronym. :)
<sivang> when you put literals to vars like that, I doesn't do double quote expansion - it just uses the literal as a value.
<froud> sivang, you busy now
<froud> I want you to test the makefile dist target
<froud> Any takers for testing
<froud> ?
<sivang> I can, sec.
<froud> ok
* mode/#ubuntu-doc [+o sivang]  by ChanServ
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-doc:sivang] :  Ubuntu Doc Team - general discussion - backlog at http://irclog.workaround.org | This channel tries to follow the tradition of the #gnome-love channel on irc.gimp.net, all new comers and questions are welcomed, as long as you follow the Ubuntu community code of conduct @ http://www.ubuntulinux.org/community/conduct first.
<sivang> froud: ok, I can svn'd up
<froud> yes, a few small issues but yes
<sivang> I did
<froud> then do 
<froud> make dist
<sivang> yes?
<sivang> what does the export parm to svn do?
<froud> brings a clean printine tree of HEAD
<froud> pristine
<froud> we dont want the .svn admin folders etc in dist
<sivang> ok, good
<sivang> It' finished
<froud> did it suceed
<sivang> has it build the whole thing?
<sivang> so fast????
<sivang> :)
<froud> this is what we need for the yelp part
<froud> not sure if the sturcture etc is goo dfor yelp
<sivang> so it didn't create html
<sivang> or pdf or anything
<froud> no
<froud> you can run make all
<sivang> did it register anything ?
<froud> no
<froud> not that far yet
<froud> :-)
<sivang> I am going there and I think I will eventually have an answer
<sivang> :)
<froud> I just create a tarball of the src
<froud> xml only
<froud> I dont like the way it is creating the tarball
<sivang> why not?
<froud> it has the wrong folder and a copy ofthe targ.za inside the tar.gz :-)
<froud> I am gonna make a change
<froud> sivang, do svn up
* mode/#ubuntu-doc [-o sivang]  by sivang
<froud> delete the dist folder
<froud> and old tar.gz
<froud> then do make dist
<froud> should be much better
<sivang> ok, I just did that
<sivang> I rm the dist folder
<sivang> and reran make dist
<froud> ok
<froud> I am not sure of the structure etc.
<froud> how were the docs packaged last time
<froud> perhaps I should also build the HTML is ubuntu-docs
<froud> perhaps the structure should be ubuntu-docs
<froud>       [VERSION] -[release] /
<froud>        xml/
<froud>       userguide/
<froud>       quickguide/
<froud> faqguide/
<froud>         faqguide/
<froud> something like that or the xml/ should be called yelp/
<froud> what do others think?
<froud> what about
<froud> ubuntu-docs/
<froud> 	xml/
<froud> 	html/
<froud> 		userguide/
<froud> 		quickguide/
<froud> 		faqguide/
<froud> or 
<froud> ubuntu-docs/
<froud> 	src/
<froud> 	html/
<froud> 		userguide/
<froud> 		quickguide/
<froud> 		faqguide/
<sivang> we would have to wait and see what pople thik
<froud> another
<froud> ubuntu-docs/
<froud> 	$(VERSION)-$(RELEASE)
<froud> 		src/
<froud> 		html/
<froud> 			userguide/
<froud> 			quickguide/
<froud> 			faqguide/
<froud> the last one is good since we can uninstall easily
<sivang> what is the purpose of the ubuntnu-docs dir?
* sivang sees alot of redundency in the current staructure.
<froud> that is what goes in the tarball
<sivang> you mean a tarball of installation on other system than ubuntu?
<froud> no I mean ubuntu
<froud> /usr/share/doc/ubuntu-docs
<froud> Install everything there right?
<sivang> yes
<froud> so the root folder in the tarball must be ubuntu-docs, right?
<froud> This path should contain the src and html, right?
<froud> I am thinking that during an upgrade it will be good to have /usr/share/doc/ubuntu-docs/$(VERSION)-$(RELEASE)
<froud> that way we can uninstall old docs and or update to point to new $(VERSION)-$(RELEASE)
<froud> ?
* froud sees people need time to think. Going to watch a movie.
<froud> b c'ing ya
<froud> sivang, please test the make targets and if there are bugs make bugzilla's and assign them to me.
<froud> sean@inwords.co.za
<sivang> c
<sivang> c'ya
#ubuntu-doc 2005-01-13
<hornbeck> anyone around?
<[froud] > African greetinsg
<maskie> morning froud from a fellow s-african and all the best for 2005
<froud> African greetings
<froud> where in RSA are you
<maskie> just outside cape town ... northern side
<froud> OK, Johannesburg for me, North
<maskie> ok
<froud> I see you are on uunet
<froud> how's thier dsl, any good?
<maskie> froud: got no idea since am not using dsl --- currently using isdn ....
<froud> Hmmm, your host has been connected for ages. Your phone bill will be huge
<maskie> i have this R7 thingy so mostly only am on at home during call-more time --- my monthly bill still lower than adsl 
<froud> R7 thing, how does that work?
<maskie> max cost of a call during call-more is R7 --- ie from friday 7pm till monday 7am only cost R7 
<froud> Oh, so you're connected 24/7 over weekends only
<maskie> yes and after 7pm in the week -- not really at home during the day so it suits me at the moment
<froud> but the dsl is not that expensive. For business I know my overall cost is +-R1000 including ISP and I took the dsl router over six months
<froud> it should be less for personal
<maskie> think the dsl384 is around R700 including ISP ... nice thing about ISDN is no cap and no shaping 
<froud> he he, yes that is true. But I use 512 and only once have I ever gone over the 3GB cap.
<maskie> so i assume you do not download big stuff ... diff between us software guys and you tech writers :)
<froud> Not true. I have to do lots of downloading and I have to sync with cvs and svn repo's. I just keep everything updated as much possible so I dont need to do it in one go
<froud> mostly I build from working copy of cvs or svn so that helps
<maskie>  yes it does ....
<froud> If I need a distro, I get a copy from one of the lugs
<froud> ok, not quite as much as developers
<maskie> am starting to do more and more work from home so will probably get dsl in the next month or so ... can do with the increased speed 
<froud> :-) so are you helping with the docs
<maskie> not much... just keeping an eye on what you guys are doing ... not much of a writer ....
<maskie> might be getting involved in some translation work into afrikaans if there is really a need ...
<froud> Good idea
<froud> what about all 11 official languages ?
<maskie> except english and afrikaans ... the rest might be a bit of a strech
<froud> He he :-)
<froud> Im new to this project, so I am stil trying to find out how things work.
<froud> I've been focused on getting the Docbook application is a stable shape
<froud> made a number of repository changes and made documents valid/well-formed
<maskie> have been using ubuntu since just after the warty release but have been mostly lurking 
<froud> just finishing off a make file
<maskie> yes have seen most of them and think you did a great job ...
* froud blushes
<froud> any ideas for improvements
<maskie> not at the moment ... 
<froud> Oh well, if you think of something, let me know
<maskie> will do ... 
<froud> Well, I am off to the Rosebank Flee market today
<maskie> yes and i might be off to go watch some cricket .... 
<froud> It's a hot, hot morning, I expect it to be an even hotter day
<froud> cricket, who is playing
* froud outa touch
<maskie> at least we can go to the beach ... SA vs England at Newlands
<froud> well we know who will win that one :-)
<froud> Beach, ouch
<froud> I grew up in Durbs
<froud> One thing I miss is the beach
<maskie> that is why i love cpt ... beach and the mountain
<froud> you just found my soft spot :-) 
<froud> I have never been to CT
<froud> I left ZA about 15 years ago and only been back just over a year
<froud> I have yet to visit
<maskie> oh no .... great place to visit and even better place to stay ....
<froud> they say feb/Mar is a good time of the year
<froud> so I plan a trip this year Mar
<froud> but to windy
<maskie> yes it is ... then all the holiday visitors ha sgone back ....
<froud> and you capies are like heeeeey duuuuuuude, chiilllll
<maskie> you get used to the wind ... march should not be that bad
<froud> hope not
<maskie> some of us yes .... not all
<froud> an us vallies are like "I can like to love you stukkent"
<froud> well b c'ing ya
<maskie> he he :)
<maskie> c ya
<sivang> hey people
<abelli> ciao
<ChrisH> chow
* ChrisH had 7 nightmarish hours of installing Warty on his father-in-law's PC
<froud> Who should actually hold copyright over the documentation?
<sivang> froud: the ubuntu documentation project
<sivang> Hi again people.
* sivang is here for the next 30 mins or so..
<froud> hi you're still marked away
<sivang> check again
<sivang> I just removed the mark
<froud> you sure, should it be UDP or Canonical?
<sivang> UDP
<sivang> IMHO,
<froud> OK
<sivang> maybe we should ask jdub
<sivang> lemme check
<sivang> well , no answer yet.
<sivang> maybe we _should_ appoint canonical with the copyright as they would be able to go to court when someone violates the licsense..
<sivang> oppinion people?
* sivang just recalled that work you do on gnome-system-tools is best preferred to get copyright for Ximian/Novell because they are more capable at protecting code and licsense in court.
<froud> yes, hence my questions?
<froud> at present it is assigned to ChrisH and Nick
<froud> not good IMHO
<froud> for the reasons you mentioned
<ChrisH> Is it a problem of the copyright or the license? I thought the copyright holders are the writers themselves?
<froud> In this case the writers do not have a single legal body
<froud> when I work on commercial work for a publisher
<ChrisH> Hmmm.
<froud> and it is in a team
<froud> the team gives the publisher copyright
<froud> the rights return to the writers after X years
<froud> normally when the work is OOP
<ChrisH> But is Canonical the publisher? I understand that they could fight at court. But IMHO canonical is still the sponsor - not the boss.
<froud> Unless the writers ban together and create a company, it becomes very difficult for them to enforce their copyright
<froud> As I see it Canonical is the holding company
<ChrisH> Hmmm.
<froud> ubuntu is a project of the holding company
<ChrisH> Ubuntu is a community project. Isn't it?
<froud> Dunno what we will do here. At SuSE I now use Novell Inc.
<froud> Is it?
<froud> really?
<ChrisH> Sponsorship by Canonical
<ChrisH> The Ubuntu Project is a community project with participation from many volunteers, sponsored by Canonical Ltd.
<ChrisH> (from the main page)
<ChrisH> The situation of some people getting money where others are working voluntarily is complicated enough. I don't assume many people would work for Ubuntu if it wouldn't be a 99% community thing.
<froud> how far does the sponsorship stretch
<ChrisH> Philosophical question. :) Marketing, printing CDs, getting money back for support contracts.
<froud> ChrisH, we have different views of how OSS works :-)
<froud> yeah
<froud> OK ChrisH r you prepared to back the copyright?
<froud> Is Nick
<froud> or anyone on the team?
<ChrisH> IMHO Canonical is already far too much involved to have ubuntu really be a community project. Still its community is much better than Debian's. Although the principles in Debian are easier.
<froud> agreed
<froud> If I put the UDP.... who is the UDP?
<froud> can a copyright be attributed to a community of loosely connected individuals?
<froud> who aaare those individuals?
<froud> can anyone just come along and say ... hey, what the hell I will under write the copyright?
<froud> If so then I will have one of my companies do it
<froud> Since I am in contribution, I have copyright. As do each of the contributors
<froud> Hence the importance of the license. Which I dont think people actually have a clue about.
<froud> The arguments for a hybrid are pretty flimsy if you ask me
<froud> who is legal council here
* froud just loves the silence. Let me know when you people r serious
<ChrisH> What's that gonna mean?
<hornbeck> froud: what does,  Let me know when you people r serious, mean?
<ChrisH> hornbeck: froud has stormed out
<hornbeck> I am really tired of the in fighting
<hornbeck> :-)
<hornbeck> has any real work been done on docs?
<hornbeck> I am just curious?
<ChrisH> I'm working on the sysadmin stuff currently. But very little seems to be done currently.
<hornbeck> thats what I thought
<hornbeck> man I just don't have time
<hornbeck> well keep up with the work your doing ChrisH, its very needed
<ChrisH> Thanks. :)
<hornbeck> yeah, I just wish I could do more
<ChrisH> I've started to ignore most of the chat here, all the politic talks, all the flooding on the mailing list. We seem to be talking the whole project to death.
<hornbeck> yeah
<hornbeck> the time I do have it seems to be used listening to arguments
<ChrisH> And although I really value what froud it doing technically he's just the dozenth details that kept everyone from writing.
<hornbeck> I wrote some the other day but that was the first in awhile
<hornbeck> you have kids right?
<ChrisH> Yes, Sir.
<hornbeck> you work full time?
* ChrisH nods
<hornbeck> do you go to school at all?
<hornbeck> I work 40-50, have two kids/wife, and go to school full time
<hornbeck> when I started with Ubuntu I did not work full time or go to school
<hornbeck> all the sudden I have no time for dosc
<hornbeck> docs
<ChrisH> Nah, I've a job as a security admin guy at an online store.
<hornbeck> I am a sysadmin for a computer firm
<hornbeck> we have over 200 clients that we administer
#ubuntu-doc 2005-01-14
<enrico> hello jiyuu0!
<jiyuu0> enrico, yes
<plovs> morning all
<froud> morning
<plovs> froud: hi, don't think we have met before
<froud> no, heard lots about you. All good :-)
<plovs> that's nice to hear :-)
<plovs> how long you've been using linux / ubuntu ?
<froud> a week
<froud> been using Linux for 3 or 4 years
<froud> mostly work on SuSE
<plovs> what do you think of ubuntu?
<froud> now trying Ubuntu
<froud> not as stable as would like, but good for the version it is at
<froud> want KDE though
<froud> not a GNOME fan
<plovs> kde is coming
<froud> so I read
<froud> makes me happy
<froud> hope all my changes in svn have not unset you
<plovs> i met the kde guys, dedicated to the cause of kde
<plovs> which ones are that? the only ones i did not like where a couple of <!-- -->, nothing big
<plovs> under what name did you commit? froud?
<froud> structure is new and the application level work different
<froud> sean.wheller
<froud> more small changes today
<plovs> ah, ok so that's you :-)
<froud> do svn up
<plovs> did that already, looks good
<froud> cool, now its just a caase of keeping it valid 
<froud> :-)
<froud> added new legalnotice, feedback, disclaimer this morn
<froud> oh and Typographical Conventions
<plovs> ah, should check those out
<froud> So far legal notice is just Creative Commons
<froud> but I understand there will be a hybrid
<froud> so it is bound to change
<plovs> what did you use suse for, coding?
<froud> yes this is my main box
<plovs> you consider suse more stable then ubuntu?
<froud> Hmmm, loaded question. IMHO yes
<plovs> just curious, i have only used -bsd, debian and redhat, for real
<plovs> redhat got me so upset with rpm that i never even tried suse
<froud> YaST does the job of rpm's much better
<plovs> the yast sshots look nice, especially on the latest novell incarnation of suse
<plovs> lots of tools nicely together
<froud> Yes kinda replaces Linuxconf or webmin
<froud> runs will as gui and ncurses
<froud> at least I dont need linuxconf or webmin to admin a workstation
<froud> I have not tried it under the Novell Zenworks though
<froud> they say it is very good
<plovs> zenworks is for usermanagement etc right, like active directory?
<froud> yes, central management
<froud> active dir is one part
<froud> anyway, just to let you know that the base of the docs docbook app is now stable. I am now starting to focus on adding content
<plovs> what are you planning on doing?
<froud> there are still many issues to figure out with the team, things like license, copyright etc.
<froud> I will focus on Quick Guide at first
<froud> I understand that is P1
<plovs> yes, the catch with it is that there is another version besides the one in the repo
<froud> ouch, this is one of those other problems I have not mentioned
<froud> I really want to get started but things keep coming out of the woodwork
<plovs> ah, i have been offline for a couple of days and hoped everything would be solved by now
<froud> I dont want to waste my time so for now I will focus on moving the content in userguide/old into the docs
<plovs> i postponed working on quickguide until that stuff is sorted out, i worked on the faqguide only
<plovs> if you want you are free to look at that ass well, just keep me in the loop
<froud> planning and preparation is lacking IMHO. We need to resolve all these issues
<plovs> look and touch i mean :-)
<plovs> agreed
<froud> sure will, from time-to-time I will add to it
<froud> btw, I am using bugzilla and have asked others to do the same
<froud> its the only way to keep track of what's potting
<froud> it would also save me loads of time if people could validate their docs before commit
<froud> do you know how to validate?
<plovs> no, enlighten me
<froud> ok cd to trunk/
<froud> then do
<froud> xmllint --noout --xinclude --postvalid quickguide/quickguide.xml
<froud> or 
<froud> xmllint --noout --xinclude --postvalid quickguide/quickguide.xml
<froud> opps
<froud> xmllint --noout --xinclude --postvalid userguide/usersguide.xml
<froud> or
<froud> xmllint --noout --xinclude --postvalid faqguide/faq2.xml
<froud> if there are validation problems xmllint will shout
<froud> if not it exits silently
<plovs> ok, installing xmllint
<froud> It should be installed with xsltproc
<froud> libxslt I think
<plovs> ibxml2-utils
<froud> ok
<plovs> and it says: I/O warning : failed to load external entity "faqguide/faq2.xml"
<froud> what file did you run it on
<plovs> duh, my fault, should have added trunk
<froud> yes we have trunk, branches an dtags now
<plovs> brb
<froud> you can test xmllint by inducing an error and seeing the result
* froud also suggests plovs trys the make file
<froud> do make faq to build the faq guide
<froud> html output will be in /trunk/ubuntu-docs
<plovs> Document trunk/faqguide/faq2.xml does not validate
<plovs> that is not good i suppose
<plovs> i'll pipe the output so i can actually read it
<froud> you modified Add-OnApplications.xml
<plovs> yes, and a couple of others as well
<froud> did you commit the others
<plovs> yes, committed all, it does not show with svn log though
<froud> Hmm I only see one update
<froud> ok look at this problem for example
<froud> <listitem> File Browser: System Tools <screen>
<froud> File Menu -&gt; Create Launcher
<froud> Basic Tab -&gt;
<froud> Name: Firestarter Firewall Tool
<froud> Command: gksudo /usr/sbin/firestarter
<froud> Icon: /usr/share/pixmaps/firestarter.png
<froud> 				</screen>
<froud>                 </listitem>
<froud> oopop
<froud> <listitem>
<froud>                     <para>File Browser: System Tools</para>
<froud>                     <screen>
<froud> File Menu -&gt; Create Launcher
<froud> Basic Tab -&gt;
<froud> Name: Firestarter Firewall Tool
<froud> Command: gksudo /usr/sbin/firestarter
<froud> Icon: /usr/share/pixmaps/firestarter.png
<froud> 				</screen>
<froud>                 </listitem>
<froud> To fix it needs
<froud> <para>File Browser: System Tools</para>
<froud> ok I have your other commits
<plovs> ok, what is wrong?
<plovs> <listitem> File Browser: System Tools <screen> ?
<froud> You have forgotten to surround File Browser: System Tools in para so the parser ssees CDATA
<plovs> File ... not in a tag?
<froud> yes surround in <para></para>
<froud> then have <screen></screen>
<froud> :-)
<plovs> i have quite a few off those...
<froud> Yes :-)
<plovs> riiight, back to the trenches
<froud> ok
<froud> also see /chapter[1] /sect1[2] /orderedlist[1] /listitem[4] /para[1] /menuchoice[1]  - moreinfo="none"	Add-OnApplications.xml	file:/home/sean/projects/ubuntu-docs/faq/trunk/faqguide/faqs/Add-OnApplications.xml	50:0
<froud> see the use of menuchoice
<froud> Ideally I would like to get all menus described as such
<froud> and then use them as entities
<froud> that way if they change in the future we can easily update them
<froud> in a single place
<plovs> hmm, that is not cleart to me... what does this do? (opening it yelp, right now)
<froud> Docbook will automatically add > between menus etc
<plovs> agreed, looks nicer, how can we centrelize this?
<froud> We need to define all menus
<froud> as common objects
<plovs> in /common/ ? 
<froud> see common/
<froud> yep
<froud> then add the menu to libs/global.ent
<plovs> this is good since the menus change for hoary
<froud> then reference to it using entity &menu-someitem-selection;
<froud> yes
<froud> If you just create your docs valid
<plovs> this is good stuff :-)
<froud> I will go through and move your menus to common
<froud> that way you will have a sample to go by
<plovs> and i'll repair the missing <para>
<froud> yes, just make your docs valid
<froud> the menus I will do for you
<plovs> will do
<plovs> and thanks
<froud> the advantage here is that people on other books can use the same entities
<froud> so if we all stick to referencing the menus as entities
<froud> then we can have a global change
<froud> for hoary
<froud> across all documents
<plovs> super
<froud> Look at the DocType Decl
<froud> <!DOCTYPE chapter PUBLIC "-//OASIS//DTD DocBook XML V4.3//EN" 
<froud> 	"http://www.oasis-open.org/docbook/xml/4.3/docbookx.dtd" [
<froud> <!ENTITY % xinclude SYSTEM "../../libs/xinclude.mod">
<froud> %xinclude;
<froud> <!ENTITY % globalent SYSTEM "../../libs/global.ent">
<froud> %globalent;
<froud> ] >
<froud> each document defines this
<froud> and has the entities external
<froud> in <!ENTITY % globalent SYSTEM "../../libs/global.ent">
<plovs> btw what is better <para> <screen> </screen> </para> or <screen> outside the para?
<froud> screen is valid under <listitem>
<froud> so do 
<froud> <listitem>
<froud>       <para> ...</para>
<froud>            <screen>....</screen>
<froud> </listitem>
<plovs> ok
<froud> well goodluck, if you have questions let me know
<froud> btw each of your documents can now be validated as stand-alone
<froud> you may get errors if there are xrefs etc external to the document
<froud> just commnet them
<plovs> thanks, this will keep me busy for a while
<froud> this way you can validate on a per document basis
<froud> makes it easier to find problems
<froud> :-)
<froud> time saver
<froud> enjoy
<froud> c ya
<plovs> ;-)
<froud> plovs, do svn update and take a look under /common/menus/
<froud> also see the new menus section in /libs/global.ent
<froud> then see 
<froud> then see
<froud> Add-OnApplications.xml 50:0 /chapter[1] /sect1[2] /orderedlist[1] /listitem[4] /para[1] /menuchoice[1]  
<froud> for a working example
<abelli> ciao a tutti
<froud> hello
<froud> plovs, Add-OnApplications.xml all menus are added
<plovs> froud: thanks, looking
<froud> plovs, which planner did you mean to reference?
<plovs> froud: just the app planner
<froud> plovs, GNOME planner ?
<plovs> froud: would it be wise to use macro's like these for other things as well? like the General notes etc, it would make the individual items much shorter
<plovs> froud: yes
<plovs> it's called planner afaik we might add GNOME to make it more clear
<froud> plovs, yes, in some cases. However, we must not overdo the ents thing as it will slow down stuff in yelp
<froud> OK
<froud> but what is the menu entry?
<plovs> let me install it, brb
<froud> If you use a text over and again, then it makes sense to have it in one place and reuse it
<plovs> the origianl writer of the faq used one line in every single item
<enrico> Hello!
<froud> enrico, hello
<froud> plovs, what do you mean?
<plovs> enrico: hi!
<enrico> plovs: hey there!  How're you doing?
<froud> example
<plovs> enrico: great, back to do stuff
<plovs> froud: it's called route planner
<froud> enrico,  plovs and I are just hacking some new stuf
<enrico> plovs: SO GOOD!
<plovs> you have yelp?
<plovs> enrico: yes
<plovs> just look, every item starts with: see general notes
<plovs> enrico: if froud won't make me redo the whole thing then the faqguide should be done this week
<froud> yes, but where is this section in the documents, I dont see it in the repos
<plovs> <listitem>
<plovs>                              <para>Read <link linkend="sect-general">General Notes</link></para>
<plovs>                         </listitem>
<plovs> like this in every item
<enrico> plovs: Wow!
<plovs> this might be replace with &disclaimer; or whatever, do i understand that right?
<enrico> froud: please don't make plovs redo the whole thing :)
<plovs> and then later we might decide to replace the whole thing, with something else in one step
<plovs> enrico: froud explained how to validate xml
<plovs> enrico: i just used yelp, if it doesn't crash, then it's ok, but validating is better
<froud> plovs, route planner is added
<froud> svn up
<enrico> plovs: oh, yes.  At least one spots mistakes early on
<enrico> route planner?
<froud> plovs, what is the text for General Notes
<plovs> hold your hats!
<plovs> This is an Unofficial Ubuntu 4.10 Starter Guide. It is not associated with Ubuntu and Canonical Ltd.Guide is tested on a full installation of Ubuntu 4.10 (Warty Warthog)If you see "$", means you have to execute the command in Terminal mode (Applications -> System Tools -> Terminal)"sudo" means superuser do. "sudo" will prompt for "Password:". Please specify your user passwordIf you are tired of typing "sudo" all the time, switch to root user by issuing "sudo 
<plovs> this is linked on every item, now it is three lines, if we could use one that would be nice but if it slows down yelp for every item then it might be too expensive
<plovs> enrico: routeplanner is a link to the menu entry, so we have all the menu entries in one place
<froud> plovs, yes linked in one place is good. I will add a common object and include it in the beginning of the doc
<froud> plovs, is that the complete text
<froud> is there are version of it on the web
<plovs> froud: that text is not shown, it is linked
<froud> yes
<froud> need to add it at begin of FAQ?
<froud> right?
<plovs> froud: see: http://ubuntuguide.org/
<froud> also text "Unofficial Ubuntu 4.10 Starter Guide" should this not be "Unofficial Ubuntu &faqguide-rev; FAQ Guide" ??
<froud> or is it official?
<plovs> froud: this is the original, i port it to docbook, then everybody can take a look at it then it will be official
<plovs> then we can make a new html version
<plovs> jiyuu0 is the guy who actually assambled it
<plovs> it would be nice if the html version we make would look like this (at least one version)
<froud> plovs, the makefile target faq will make a html version
<froud> we will need to do some small changes to get it looking exactly the same
<froud> perhaps some CSS and XSL custom layer work
<enrico> plovs: sorry to distract you with a quick question: did you get the "About Ubuntu" page from somewhere, or that work has not been done yet?  If not, I'll take care of it, and I can get the page, convert it to DocBook and put it in the repository
<plovs> froud: that can be done later, afaik
<plovs> enrico: i haven't done a thing about it yet, sorry, so please do
<froud> perhaps we should have done this using the docbook faq style
<enrico> plovs: no problem, I just wanted to check to avoid stomping on your feet.  I'll take care of it.
<froud> plovs, looks like the original was done in Docbook FAQ
<froud> plovs, dont worry about it now, I can port it later
<plovs> froud: why are there external references? I/O error : Attempt to load network entity http://www.oasis-open.org/docbook/xml/4.3/docbookx.dtd
<plovs> enrico: ok
<froud> do you have docbook 4.3 installed
<froud> if not it will load it from the network
<froud> this could cause problems if you have a slow connection
<froud> should only happen when you run the makefile
<froud> is this waht you did?
<plovs> no i used yelp on faq2.xml
<froud> yes yelp will also call for docbook 4.3
<froud> if connection is slow it woont be able to load all the docbook entities
<froud> yelp loads the DTD and its entities but does not validate against it
<plovs> froud: yes i have docbook installed, but "normal" users might not have it, external references are bad imho
<froud> which version do you have
<plovs> 4.3-ubuntu-2
<plovs> 4.3-1ubuntu2
<froud> should work, do you have a working catalog
<froud> unbuntu does not do nice things with catalogs
<froud> This problem can happen no matter what version of docbook we use
<froud> it is defined in the DocType Decl
<plovs> can't we just bundle everything we need without external stuff?
<plovs> this is basic help stuff after all
<froud> the distro should ship with and install docbook and a working catalog
<froud> most distros do
<plovs> ok, didn't know that
<froud> we have a few of these problems to overcome
<enrico> froud: it may be that we're doing something wrong.  Debian Sid installs DocBook 4.3, should have catalogs ok, but still make looks for things in the oasis website
<enrico> Unfortunately, I don't know about the DocBook toolchain enough to debug it.  I can ask Mako when he wakes up
<froud> actually its xsltproc
<froud> when xsltproc parses the document it reads the DocType Decl of the doc
<froud> it should search fro XML_CATALOG_FILES in the env
<froud> and use that to find your catalog
<froud> if this is not done, then xsltproc is not fully installed
<froud> properly
<enrico> And the catalog files should point to existing local things?
<plovs> one more parse error i get is: Add-OnApplications.xml:736: element link: validity error : IDREF attribute linkend references an unknown ID "Repositories"
<plovs> lot's of them
<froud> did you svn up
<enrico> If I do "XML_CATALOG_FILES=/usr/share/xml/docbook/schema/dtd/4.3/catalog.xml make ug", it works fine
<froud> yes it will
<enrico> without that env var, it looks for the oasis website.
<plovs> froud: svn is up-to-date
<froud> the error above is looking for an element with the id="Repositories"
<froud> If you validate the file only it will error
<plovs> ah, ok
<froud> if you validate the faq2.xml it should not be a problem
<froud> to temp resolve this comment your xrefs
<plovs> i am validating the whole thing now
<plovs> i need a faster computer
<froud> dont we all
<plovs> it takes more then the blink of an eye, i hate that
<plovs> many blinks even
<froud> heh heh
<plovs> feels like gentoo
<plovs> froud: do you know why <screen> does not line up with the numbers in <listitem> ?
<froud> Will have to take a look
<plovs> ok
<plovs> he, it validated i think, wow
<froud> cool no errors is good
<froud> :-)
<froud> did you commit
<froud> ok
<froud> yep its valid ..... yahoo!
<froud> plovs, cool great work
<abelli> mako: ding
(froud/#ubuntu-doc) plovs,  I have just done commit of general notes for you. It's common/general-notes.xml
<plovs> froud: ok, reading
<froud> plovs, ok all refs to it have been uncommented
<jiyuu0> froud, r u converting ubuntuguide.org into xml?
<plovs> jiyuu0: yes, 2/3 is done
<froud> jiyuu0, no plovs  is I think
<jiyuu0> plovs, cool :) can i have a peep
<plovs> jiyuu0: starting to look really good
<plovs> sure, you have subversion installed?
<froud> plovs, there is a bug in yelp
<jiyuu0> yes i have
<plovs> froud: i'm sure there is
<jiyuu0> what's the command to sync?
<froud> it does not know what to do with the preface
<froud> svn up
<plovs> jiyuu0: svn checkout http://69.155.172.150/faq
<froud> do you have a working copy already
* jiyuu0 checkin...
<plovs> jiyuu0: svn up to sync yor existing dir
<jiyuu0> i think i wipe the whole account off previously
<jiyuu0> so din back the old dir up
<froud> jiyuu0, do svn checkout http://69.155.172.150/faq/trunk udp-docs
* jiyuu0 doing...
<froud> this will create the dir udp-docs and checkout a working copy
<froud> plovs, can read the General Notes under Yelp
<froud> yet I can read the Conventions
<froud> strange cause they are both in the preface
<jiyuu0> plovs, looks good
<plovs> froud: general notes seems to have gone the way of windows3.1...
<plovs> jiyuu0: i think it's great, i use your guide al the time
<plovs> and in yelp on install it would be even better
<jiyuu0> what tool do you use to write the xml?
<plovs> jiyuu0: vim
<jiyuu0> wow... serious...
<jiyuu0> i use gedit
<plovs> and xmllint and froud, great tools
<plovs> jiyuu0: and with some work we can make an updated html like yours, straight from the xml-source
<jiyuu0> but will the format run?
<plovs> so we have one source for yelp, html and pdf
<plovs> jiyuu0: run where?
<froud> plovs, but first we must port to docbook FAQ format
<froud> :-)
<jiyuu0> i mean the layout? how will it look on html?
<jiyuu0> a got couple of emails requesting for pdf
* plovs in a soft voice: what is that docbook faq?
<plovs> jiyuu0: let me check
<jiyuu0> :)
* plovs is building the user guide
* jiyuu0 heading for dinner... brb
* froud whispers to plovs http://www.sagehill.net/docbookxsl/QandASetsHTML.html
<plovs> froud: will that work? i should try it on one of the smaller ones
<froud> works like magic
* enrico is psyched and can't wait to make an IRC report tomorrow!
* froud likes enrico 's irc reports
<plovs> check the samba-stuff third entry, looks like crap, i did something wrong
<froud> plovs, : no faq is a document type
<froud> elp does not know what to do with it like this
<froud> We will need to text Docbook FAQ Document Types in Yelp
<plovs> ah, is it a lot of work to make an example doc?
<plovs> froud: btw i like the conventions
<froud> cool
<froud> plovs, do svn up and test the faq again
<froud> I moved the general notes and conventions etc to a new chapter
<froud> called Introduction
<froud> this avoids the bugs yelp has with preface
<plovs> yes, just did, nice
* plovs especially likes the "test" in General :-)
* froud is sad
<froud> yelp does not know what to do with FAQ format
<froud> plovs, I guess we will stay with the current method
<plovs> froud: too bad, but hoary has an updated yelp, so don't loose all hope yet
<froud> 2.9
<froud> take this file and test it you like
<froud> plovs, do you want it
<plovs> froud: oh, just wait, i don't remember how to except dcc in irssi, just a sec
<plovs> ok, got it
<froud> take it
<froud> before I timeout again
<plovs> froud: i'm stalled
<plovs> but i do not run hoary anyway, enrico does
<froud> Ok,
<enrico> plovs: do I? :)
<enrico> plovs: I run sid.  I'm trying to make ubuntu and sid share a boot directory, so that I can use them both in a shared LVM setup
<plovs> i thought you had the latest yelp, no? si?
<enrico> i have 2.6.5
<froud> plovs, there are many static refs to versions in docs. makes updates a bother
<plovs> froud: agreed, we should have links for those
<froud> Yes
<froud> like Ubuntu 4.10 (Warty Warthog)
<froud> I already have version documents     for the documents
<froud> guess I will make the same for distro release
<plovs> froud: nice
<plovs> enrico: i have 2.6.4
<froud> what?
<froud> where to keep the distro version number?
<plovs> froud: having you replacing static stuff with links, way better then me doing that
<froud> sure
<froud> just remember to use those that I've done, so I dont have to do it again
<froud> :-)
<froud> see libs/global.ent if you need a list
<froud> all those are available globally
<froud> call them from anywhere :-)
<enrico> plovs: please tell me if I can be useful for testing things, although I don't know what version will go in hoary
<sivang> enrico: that's a good thing you start to incorporate stuff from the term into the structure pages :)
<plovs> froud has a file that crashes yelp
<plovs> sivang: hi!
<sivang> plovs: hehe, that's not hard at the momoent :)
<sivang> plovs: HI plovs! Happy new year!
* sivang waves to everybody and wishes a happy new year
<froud> plovs, which one
<plovs> sivang: the one you tried to send me
<sivang> enrico: aye aye aye, the italian celebrations on tv.....lots of brazilian dancers :)
<sivang> plovs: ?
<enrico> italian celebrations with brasilian dancers??
* plovs waves at sivang
<sivang> enrico: I'm referring to the CANAL5 italian channel (I think it's settalite somethig)
<plovs> sivang: what version of yelp do you use?
<sivang> plovs: lemme check
* sivang is using hoary
<plovs> froud: ok, now everything seems to work
<froud> Hmm strange
<enrico> sivang: don't watch that thing.  It's bad for your health.
<enrico> sivang: that's one of the Berlusconi personal propaganda channels
<froud> Ok I have added &distro-rev; and &distro-version;
<froud> all: if you need to specify the VERSION then use &distro-version;
<froud> all: if you need to specify the RELEASE then use &distro-rev;
<froud> so you can have "Guide is tested on a full installation of Ubuntu &distro-rev; (&distro-version;)"
<froud> =
<froud> so you can have "Guide is tested on a full installation of 4.10 (WartyWarthog)"
<sivang> enrico: was he the guy that told all the show to "STOP!!" so he could talk? he's like a dictator with a tv channel :)))
<sivang> enrico: he's a fat old guy surrounded by gergoues looking italian women
<enrico> sivang: a dictator with 7 TV channels, actually
<sivang> enrico: wow, a rich guy?
<enrico> uhm, probably not.  He's a small, bald idiot with a perennial forced smile.  And the president of the country.  But maybe we're off-topic...
<sivang> enrico: I do not understand italina that much, so I can not be brainwashed, however , they __know___ how to party :)
<plovs> froud: doesn't work atm?
<froud> svn up
<froud> Ur Hum and again, my fault sorry
<froud> you should now see the feedback and acknowledgements sections under introduction
<plovs> froud: yep, looks good
<plovs> and the version is there as well
<plovs> nice work
<froud> yes there is now version and release
<froud> version is the name
<froud> release = the number
<froud> plovs, OK enough from me. If you need anything just create a bugzilla for me sean@inwords.co.za
<plovs> froud: ok, thanks a lot and see-ya 
<froud> ok, I just found the yelp bug with preface. My fault of course, so I may just revert to using a prefce instead of an introduction chapter. Will do it later
<froud> chow
<enrico> froud: bye!
<abelli> chow?
<abelli> is it a really mispelled ciao?
<abelli> it looks like you would understand my english pronounciation
<plovs> does anybody know anything about the quickguide? the stuff in svn is the old stuff i wrote
<enrico> plovs: I'm trying to spice up the QuickGuide
<enrico> Although, I'm blocked by a couple of issues
<enrico> One, actually, which is the screenshot problem.  I'm trying to get to talk with Mako about it
<enrico> Like, if we use screenshots, we have problems translating them.  If we don't, that's not a quickguide
<enrico> In the meantime, I made a QuickGuide page in the wiki with a description of the document and its plans
<enrico> plovs: going to bed now
<enrico> we can resume this conversation tomorrow late evening, or the day after tomorrow
<sid77> hi
<froud> hi
<froud> mako, hi
<froud> Hmm, good night all
<plovs> hi guys
<abelli> ciao
<plovs> night!
#ubuntu-doc 2005-01-15
<plovs> morning!
<froud> African greetings
<plovs> froud: morning, i have a spare minute and am looking at the menu-stuff, where are the menu items defined?
<plovs> you told yesterday, but my registers gor reset over night
<plovs> froud: never mind got it
<froud> Will sounder still be used in the future?
* froud adds About Ubuntu to User Guide
<plovs> froud: sorry no idea, better ask on #ubuntu-devel
<froud> you ok with the menus now?
<plovs> froud: yeah, works quite nice
<froud> Good, Hope to save loads of time at Hoary and on translations
<froud> plovs, seems sounder will be used, but it is called Array
<froud> So I will update
<plovs> how can i see with svn what changes have been made svn log does not show changed files
<froud> plovs, try svn log --verbose trunk 
<froud> plovs, this is why I want a mail list
<froud> for commit
<froud> we can impliment post-commit template to send messages
<froud> plovs, do you use the cli?
<froud> if you want GUI try http://esvn.umputun.com/
<plovs> froud: i use cli atm
<plovs> just wondered if there is a command like svn log with more output
<froud> :-) --verbose
<froud> If you want a deb for esvn lok here http://packages.qa.debian.org/e/esvn.html
<plovs> verbose does the trick
<froud> :-) good
<froud> now you can wade through my sea of patches
<froud> :-)
<plovs> yes, now this is nice
<froud> Yes, di dyou know you can also switch between revisions
<froud> you can also switch between revisions in the branches (we donthave any yet) and the trunk
<plovs> when i finish this doc, then we should open a branch for hoary-faqguide
<froud> You can also merge between branches and trunk. Its cool for when you want to branch but dont want trunk to move to far away from your branch.
<froud> sure, shouldn't we be working on hoary in the trunk?
<froud> I mean warty is gone
<froud> I would only do a branch in the use case where I need to make intrusive changes to the current version that could hamper other people in the trunk
<froud> but perhaps you have a reason
<plovs> well, this is the warty version, i have not updated anything to hoary yet, but we should release hoary
<plovs> so we might update this as well
<froud> Yes, the problem is that we did not do XML for warty, so what we are doing is Hoary
<plovs> no, i would like to keep this for jiyuu0 so we can give him an updated html version of changes
<froud> you want to tag
<plovs> i do? (i am a complete versioning noob, but eager to learn)
<froud> tag is a version release preserved forever
<froud> branches eventually merge back to trnk
<froud> trunk
<froud> BTW we do not commit HTML PDF etc to the repos
<plovs> so then yes, i would like to end up with one hoary faqguide, as up-to-date as possible, one warty ... etc
<plovs> no, we should export PDF html
<plovs> and just keep the xml
<plovs> that's what the makefile is for
<plovs> i suppose
<froud> No HTMl and PDF are good
<froud> presentational formats just nver reside in the src
<froud> we generate them from the src
<froud> The nice part is that Yelp reads the src
<froud> Let me know when you want to tag and I will make a tag for the faqguide
<froud> if you want to browse
<froud> the repos
<froud> svn list http://69.155.172.150/faq --recursive --verbose
<plovs> what we should do is having a seperate brach for hoary, but all the updates to the warty changes should go to hoary as well, but the hoary changes should not go to the warty version
<froud> yes we can make a branch
<froud> people can still checkout the branch
<plovs> but do i have to manually edit both versions?
<froud> you merge between them
<plovs> cool, this svn stuff
<froud> I suggest you read this book as a reference
<froud> http://svnbook.red-bean.com/
<froud> before trying any of the stuff we are talking about
<froud> It gives example uses cases
<froud> that will make it easier for you to understand the relationship between tags, branches and trunk
<froud> and how to manage them
<plovs> i'll try it, asap
<froud> Ok just remember your revision mumber so we can role back if there are problems
<plovs> ok, but first i need to finish this version, then we need the makfiles, then we can think about branching
<froud> The makefiles are done
<froud> or is there more to add
<froud> take a look at trunk/Makefile
<plovs> it would be nice to be able to make seperate things (html,pdf) for seperate docs (user/quick/faq) with commands: make faq_html etc
<froud> at present we only have html.
<froud> you can do make faq
<froud> and it will build just the FAQ Guide
<froud> same with User Guide do make ug
<froud> and Quick Guide make ug
<froud> or you can build all in one operation make all
<froud> Gotta go out for a minute
<plovs> ok, trying :-)
<froud> back
<froud> I/O warning : failed to load external entity "common/menus/login-screen-setup.xml"
<froud> I/O warning : failed to load external entity "common/menus/users-groups.xml"
<froud> I/O warning : failed to load external entity "common/menus/users-groups.xml"
<froud> I/O warning : failed to load external entity "common/menus/login-screen-setup.xml
<froud> plovs,  you need to commit these files
<plovs> ok, just a sec
<plovs> froud: my svn thinks i did already
<plovs> because my commit didn't go it clashed with sometething you did i suppose
<plovs> ah no, sorry svn add it was, brb
<plovs> ok, added
<froud> faqguide/faq2.xml:50: element listitem: validity error : Element listitem content does not follow the DTD,
<plovs> looking ...
<froud> plovs, why
<froud> ---Makefile(revision282) 
<froud> +++Makefile(workingcopy) 
<froud> @@-100,7+100,7@@
<froud> @echo"BuildingtheUbuntuFAQ..."
<froud> mkdir-p$(FAQBASE)
<froud> 
<froud> -xsltproc--xinclude--stringparambase.dir$(FAQBASE)$(HTMLXSL)faqguide/faq2.xml 
<froud> +xsltproc--xinclude--stringparambase.dir$(FAQBASE)$(HTMLXSL)userguide/usersguide.xml 
<froud> why change the faq target to use userguide
<plovs> it should build the faq not the userguide
<plovs> i changed it the other way around
<froud> ok cool I see now
<plovs> i can't find the error faqguide/faq2.xml:50: element listitem: validity error 
<plovs> validating now...
<froud> ok the first problem is in UserAdministration..xml
<plovs> the html looks quite nice, but i think jiyuu0 original looks (partly) better
<froud> line 50 , should be <listitem> <para> &login-screen-setup;
<plovs> ah, yes, and i have several of those (again)
<froud> menuchoice is not a child of listitem
<plovs> it's just that validating takes so horribly long
<froud> your catalogs must be out of date
<froud> why dontyou get an XML editor like Oxygen
<froud> http://www.inwords.co.za/products.html
<froud> you can get a free demo to try it
<froud> trust me its good :-)
<abelli> buon giorno
<plovs> looking...
<plovs> abelli: hi!
<plovs> froud: java?
<froud> Heh, Heh, yes :-)
<froud> But big bonus on the editing side
<froud> and validation etc
<plovs> still, 50$ ... i have to think about that
<plovs> but i'm downloading the demo
<froud> Sure you will love it. I preffer it to XML Spy and its a whole lot  cheaper
<froud> The support group is also good
<froud> and it helps that I was the original author of the user manual ;_)
<plovs> i mostly use vim
<plovs> for just about everything
<froud> tried it, OOxygen wins hands down :-0
<froud> Inline context completion etc
<froud> easy valdations
<plovs> who removes all the empty lines all the time, the validator?
<froud> No Pretty-Print
<froud> When your indentation is all wacked just press the pretty print button
<froud> makes things easier to see
<froud> well try it and see
<plovs> downloading java
<plovs> looks nice
<froud> Try editing on eyour files
<froud> you will see the inline context completion
<froud> works on elements, attributes and their values
<froud> Also the project panel on th eleft is a time save
<froud> You also have XSLT debug
<froud> XML Tree Editor
<froud> and you can inspect    th eobject models
<froud> try insert one of our entities
<froud> do &ubuntu-
<froud> you will see the list of entities defined in global.ent
<froud> much shorter :-)
<froud> plovs, wicked stuff hey :-)
<froud> geeze dudes - writing about Demand Driven Supply Networks is caving my head in
<froud> Hmm, interesting how Yelp uses the GNOME icons for admonitions. I like them much better than the docbook ones. Anyone mind if I replace them with those from GNOME?
<plovs> froud: i am seriously in favour
* froud scratches around. Knows he has a set somewhere. But where?
<froud> Ok found them and they are now in SVN. Much better :-)
<plovs> i'll update and rebuild the faqguide
<froud> cool the new images will be used automatically
<froud> now all we need is ChrisH to work his magic on that nasty CSS
<plovs> and then we have one doc finished and a nice base for the other two
<froud> Hmm, but I still see many empty sections. Was it like this in the last release?
<froud> plovs, do you think we should enable toc generation on the chapter levels
<froud> opps my mistake
<froud> we already did
<froud> looking good plovs 
<plovs> yep, looks nice, now we only need to change the arrows and the home icon, i think
<plovs> many empty sections? only tipsandtricks is not yet done, the rest should be finished???
<plovs> is my repo not the same as yours?
<plovs> froud: could you take a look in yelp, with arrow down you can go over the whole tree
<plovs> froud: everything but tipsandtricks should be there
<froud> yes. it's just tips and tricks, well a large part thereof
<froud> pit yelp does such a poor job of alignment
<froud> pity
<plovs> yeah, look rather bad
<plovs> looks
<froud> I have not had time to test it in 2.9.3
<froud> I think that is what ships with Hoary, right?
<plovs> yes
<froud> Hmm, perhaps we should test it?
<plovs> sivang has it installed for sure, when he comes on line we should ask
<froud> k
<sivang> morning all
<froud> boker
<sivang> froud: G'morning :)
<ChrisH> sivang: hi
<sivang> Hey ChrisH !
<froud> sivang, you run Yelp 2.9.3?
<sivang> froud: I upgraded last night, and it says 2.9.3
<froud> Can you test the faqguide for plovs
<sivang> froud: ofcourse :) after some breakfast :)
<froud> we would like to know how the text and numbers align. In the current version it is poor.
<froud> yes b'fast is more important
<sivang> plovs: hi! I will test for you in a 30 minutes or so :)
<plovs> sivang: hi! super thanks
* froud digs into a bowl of chocolate fudge brownie ice cream
* froud point people to Norman Walsh's latest commentary about Docbook 5.0 http://norman.walsh.name/2005/01/03/DocBook-05
* plovs wonders how warm it is in sa, as eating icecream in januari sounds funny
<froud> 30 deg
<froud> mako, RelaxNG here we come, at last :-)
<plovs_> ok, got the link
<plovs> froud: would it be a good idea to put some validationrules in the make-file?
<plovs> if yes, these?xmllint --noout --xinclude --postvalid <file>
<froud> plovs, well you can, but technically you should have a valid and tested source before doing make
<plovs> froud: where to put it then, i would like an easy way from cli to check my files, without remembering xmllint command line options
<abelli> when does enrico,usually join ?
<froud> plovs, write a shell script that takes an arguement?
<froud> also do remember the shortcut do history
<froud> !###
<plovs> abelli: enrico said he would be online late tonight
<plovs> froud: i know, but it would be nice to have it in a central place, so everybody who adds stuff can easily validate
<plovs> i'll put a test in if it's no good i'll remove it
<froud> plovs, just create a script like xmllint --noout --xinclude --postvalid $1
<plovs> froud:  done that already
<plovs> i was just thinking, you told me to validate, if you hadn't i would not even have thought of it. so what about the next guy?
<froud> sure
<plovs> btw, i\m more or less finished, some things need to be added still, but mostly its done
<froud> hey you wiped my entities from this morning?
<plovs> i hope not???
<froud> yes there gona
<plovs> i am not the entity wiping kinda guy
<froud> no worries will bring them back in sec
<abelli> plovs: thank you
<froud> plovs, :-) SVN you gotta love it. Just trust it an it will love you.
* froud puts back his ents from r277
<plovs> how?
<froud> nice plovs  you're on a role today
<plovs> wanted to wrap it up, and work was slow today
<froud> <!ENTITY gnome 'http://www.gnome.org/' >
<froud> <!ENTITY kde 'http://www.kde.org/' >
<froud> <!ENTITY lugww 'http://lugww.counter.li.org/' >
<froud> opps
<froud> svn cat global.ent -r 277
<froud> shows the patch
<froud> since it was only three lines, just copy them and create a new patch
<froud> I could also just reapply the whole patch
<froud> but that would be overkill
<froud> and I would have to make sure I dont break something in later patches
<plovs> svn is quite nice i must say
<froud> better than cvs
<froud> although I have been playing with arch and its growing on me by the day :-)
<plovs> we will be moving to arch
<plovs> i have been told
<froud> but cant do file level patches :-)
<abelli> all: sorry but are the images in this page  http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/UbuntuArtwork meant to be shown?
<plovs> abelli: yes
<plovs> at least if nobody changed them, to something else\
<plovs> froud: we will use some spinoff of arch, but for now well keep subversion
<abelli> plovs: can you restore that page..
<froud> perhaps, we'll see
<abelli> well "could you please, kindly, restore that page?"
<plovs> abelli: no i am in the server room, on cli, sorry
<froud> personally I like to be able to do file patches, not just directy level patches
<plovs> abelli: i see no pictures, and the wiki does not work from elinks
<abelli> froud: my ol' good, lovable,  friend... could you please do it?
<abelli> :)
<froud> abelli, I am not a employee :-)
<abelli> plovs: but they are meant to work right?
<froud> I have no access, otherwise I would
<abelli> well you can edit it..
<abelli> its public.
<plovs> abelli: yes, but the wiki is kind of crummy atm, afaik, ask again tonight, i'll forget it for sure
<abelli> plovs , froud : thank you
<plovs> ok, time to go and get some diner, cu later
<froud> abelli, really I cant help. I can edit, but what does that help I cannot check if the images are there or not.
<froud> plovs, by
<froud> bye
<abelli> plovs: dinner?
* froud add trunk/validate.sh to make validation easier for some people
<abelli> what about enrico?
<hornbeck> anyone around?
<ChrisH> yes, sir
<[froud] > limping
<abelli> hello ChrisH 
<hornbeck> I will be taking the svn server down for about 30 minutes this evening
<hornbeck> I will post to the mailing list with exact times
<hornbeck> got a new router, that will make it alittle more stable
<[froud] > k
<ChrisH> abelli: :) Hi
<ChrisH> hornbeck: sure
<plovs> hi guys
<plovs> faqguide is ported!
<sid77> hi
<plovs> hornbeck: when will svn go down?
#ubuntu-doc 2005-01-16
<hornbeck> it will go down tomorrow
<hornbeck> sorry, no time to take down the server tonight
<hornbeck> I will post to the list about the time.
<plovs> good morning!
<froud> African greetings
<plovs> froud: morning
<froud> plovs, morning
<plovs> froud: you are working ont the userguide?
<froud> was yes why?
<froud> dont tell me theres another copy in another repos somewhere :-)
<plovs> nono, all's ok, what part, i would like to start on software, just so i don't step on your toes
<froud> I am  in the about section
<plovs> ok
<froud> just fixing a few markup problems with faq for you
<plovs> thanks
<froud> did you see validate.sh
<froud> just for you plovs
<froud> ;-)
<froud> I cant seem to get rid of that annoying IDREF ERROR
<froud> faqguide/faq2.xml:15: element link: validity error : IDREF attribute linkend references an unknown ID "sect-general"
<froud> Guess I should ask on docbook-aps
<froud> apps
<plovs> yeah, I saw it, *very* nice, over time we'll have a nice frame-work for apps. Scripts, makefiles, libraries of common names, very nice
<plovs> the only thing we still need is making life easier for translators, but I have no idea how that would work
<froud> plovs, they use po files.... Translators are hooked on po files
<plovs> :-) yeah, that I know, but these docs need to be translated in the xml files i suppose or in copies of them, I don't know how gnome or yelp chooses what language to display.
<froud> the translators create new xml files that contain the language of choice
<plovs> what about all the menu entries we made yesterday, is it possible in docbook to have one file with different languages? nvu.xml with both zulu and english and spanish?
<froud> yes adding @ lang="zu"
<froud> but yelp does not know how to handle this
<froud> but we will have a new dir for each lang
<plovs> ok, well we can figure this out later, but it would be nice to get stuff translated, and then a package made
<plovs> yelp has quite a lot of docs already, is it possible to somehow make al thos docs work together?
<Kinnison> Morning all
<plovs> morning Kinnison
<froud> plovs, I just posted a patch to validate.sh that fixes the problem with the IDREF errors we get when validating the faq. However, we still have one link to an id that indeed does not exist in the faq. "sect-disabled-history" do you know where this was suppoed to link to?
<froud> it seems add --noent to the command does the trick of expanding all the external entities
<plovs> froud: let me see ...
<plovs> froud: that should be sect-disable-history , not diabled
<plovs> froud: that should be sect-disable-history , not disabled
<froud> ok do you want to patch it ooor shall I
<plovs> well, if you know where the typo is, then maybe you
<plovs> i would have to search or it
* froud updates https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/AboutTheUbuntuCoreDocumentationProject
<froud> plovs, are you using oxygen?
<froud> :-)
<froud> you can search across files
<froud> but I will do it
<plovs> i'm using ssh atm, so no graphical apps
<froud> ok its done i will do svn commit
<froud> that means everything in faq is now valid
<froud> the validate.sh now includes --noent
<plovs> cool
<plovs> i added a folder called figure to the userguide for pics etc
<froud> plovs, I may change these links to xref's
<froud> no we want figures in one place
<froud> in images/
<froud> all my custom layer looks in there for images
<froud> across all the documents
<plovs> ok, if you change it then i'll use your method after it
<froud> Ok I will move the files into images/
<plovs> can you chage the link as well in userguide/software/chap-updates?
<froud> images can be reused across docs
<froud> yes will do
<plovs> thanks
<plovs> then i'll svn up it
<froud> Take a look at  https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/AboutTheUbuntuCoreDocumentationProject for explanation of directory structure
<plovs> nice write-up
<plovs> is it possible to refer from the userguide to the faqguide or visa-versa?
<plovs> what path would i use?
<froud> Yes, but I need to setup an olinks database
<froud> the problem with that is that Yelp does not know what to do with it
<froud> like allot of things ATM
<froud> plovs, ok your images have moved and chap-updates is fixed
<plovs> ok i svn up
<froud> plovs, did you do the screen capts
<plovs> no they are from the synaptic documentation
<plovs> i want hoary screenshots, but i don't have hoary yet
<plovs> brb
<froud> what does brb mean?
<froud> excuse my ignorance
<froud> OK, we need to make a note of the theme and color etc in which we will all do screen capts
<froud> otherwise we will an inconsistant look throughout the documents
<plovs> be right back
<plovs> i suppose we need just stock colors and theme
<froud> yes, something everyone has
<froud> yet looks good
<froud> remember we need to keep it across all Versions
<plovs> lookig good and the stock theme are mutually exclusive imho
<froud> so it must remain for Hoary and GrumpyGroundhog
<plovs> my picturepath is broken??? it is missing /trunk/
<froud> problem is it is more complex than just the theme. In order to get good screen capts some basic rules need to be followed
<froud> HuH
<froud> figures is now removed
<froud> However, it is a good rule of thumb to keep screen capts to a minimum
<froud> only use them when strictly necessary
<froud> plovs, I expect most people will use The GIMP right?
<froud> ok gotta go out, be back later
<froud> plovs, while I am away can you check what's with &gnome-app-install; seems you forgot to create the entity
<plovs> froud: ok
<froud> back
<abelli> ciao
<froud> plovs, what's with &gnome-app-install; in user guide
<plovs> i just need to sync, but before i sync i want to make sure it works, i still can't see my images
<plovs> i moved my whole tree to old and checked out the svn repo, now the images no longer work
<froud> ok let me see
<froud> Hmm ok I see. My fault I will fix it
<plovs> froud: did you ever work with scrollkeeper?
<froud> No
<froud> but that's to register the docs, no?
<plovs> yes, i was wondering if with scrollkeeper you can link docs together
<froud> yes you can as I know
<froud> plovs, do svn up
<froud> images are fixed
<plovs> ok, added missing menu-entry
<froud> ok thanks
* ChrisH has just been accepted as Debian Developer ;)
* froud congrats to ChrisH . Well done :-)
<ChrisH> Thanks. :)
<ChrisH> What a day-saver....
<froud> why
<ChrisH> I've been waiting for it for 1.5 years. That's really great.
<froud> He heh, very cool. I am always happy when good things happen to good people
* ChrisH is flattered
<froud> Well you deserve it
<froud> does that mean you will have more time for ubuntu-docs (teasing)
<ChrisH> It means that I need to have to install Sid on another partition as my packages don't really work in a chroot. :)
<ChrisH> But I'll surely get further with the sysadmin part of the user's guide.
<froud> Yes
<froud> actually I have a proposal
<froud> User Guide and Admin Guide two books
* froud make proposals just to make ChrisH happy :-)
<ChrisH> ARGH!
<ChrisH> froud: Your jokes will one day be killing me. :)
<ChrisH> I think I will just write my documentation in no format and anyone is free to make it whatever document structure we are currently using.
* froud cringes at the thought
<ChrisH> The only way for me to get some content into the document was switch off the IRC client, ignore the mailing list and just write. There is so much traffic lately in the doc team that I can hardly follow it and at the same time write.
<froud> patience, it takes practice. you think you have your hands full. I am working on several OSS projects and my commercial stuff :-)
<plovs> ChrisH: congrats!
<ChrisH> IMHO things need to settle a little. Too many changes recently.
<ChrisH> plovs: Thanks. :)
<froud> ChrisH, but so much has been done
<plovs> I think we need to finish what we started and then when stuff getsto big cut it in two parts
<froud> plovs, I dont think that is what ChrisH is talking about
<froud> plovs, since I joined UDP  I have been making changes and talking to people allot
<froud> plovs, this bothers some people
<froud> I do believe I have done so for the better
<froud> but if people dont like it I will tune out
<plovs> so far I have no complaints, the faqguide changes have only improved it
<froud> Like everyone, I dont have much time, so I plan my spare time to be max productive. This results in me doing allot when I do do something. On this project I did howver find that I had to ask lots of questions so I could discover where things were. Then when I found something I felt could be done in a better way I proposed a change. People were slow to respond, I moaned and then went ahead.
<ChrisH> froud: Hey, no need to feel offended. Just if you do structural changes you make writers screw the work and start from scratch. As long as the documents can be written and the structure around it is moved... okay then. Just when work becomes useless due to constant changes... that's not helpful.
* froud offers to fix any problems his changes may have caused
<ChrisH> froud: I feel that it's hard to track every single change. Between two checkouts there are usually 10 revision numbers difference.
<froud> ChrisH, but that is normal
<froud> on some projects I get rev diffs in the 100's
<ChrisH> froud: The recent work is much appreciated. I just wished it had been done already so people may write freely.
<ChrisH> I don't mind having the guides split. As long as the focus - and thus the writing style - can be kept.
<froud> ChrisH, the big changes have been made
<plovs> what structural changes have been made? i wrote a whole guide and i have zero complaints
<ChrisH> The "admin guide" thingy just scared me a little. :)
<froud> ChrisH, do you remember people      said, "let's finish one thing first."
<froud> I think that itis easier to finish small things
<ChrisH> plovs: The whole document has been rearranged mulitple times. And what is even worse: basic ideas have been questioned and moved around like "do we really need the faqguide?" or "can't we union the user's guide and the quick guide" ...
<ChrisH> froud: I just liked to keep on writing the sysadmin section... assumed the plan hasn't changed that we need it that way.
<froud> ChrisH, change is inevitable at this early stage
<plovs> ChrisH: good that i was away then
<ChrisH> froud: you proposed to have the same contents in the user's guide and the quick guide. However I assumed they try to achieve different goals. It's not important whether the graphics are changed. But it's very important to know your audience and what is supposed to go into the documentation.
<ChrisH> plovs: Indeed. :)
<ChrisH> froud: If the goals is the same just that the chapters move to another document and there is a consensus - no problem.
<plovs> the quickguide is giving lots of headaches, i must say
<ChrisH> froud: But when I'll be forced to rewrite the same chapter just because we introduce new ideas every week then after the third time you will probably not see many contributions from me.
<froud> ChrisH, the goals are the same. Belive me I do know the diff between QU and UG
<froud> ChrisH, in what parts did this problem happen to yo
<ChrisH> froud: In everything that was discussed during the last two months. After the whole situation was cleared there was another posting saying "instead of doing what we currently do shouldn't we rather..." and everyone dropped their pens.
<froud> ChrisH, when I arrived the files were empty
<froud> the framework was a mess
<froud> and nobody was committing
<froud> I proposed and announced changes
<ChrisH> froud: Still hardly anyone is committing IMHO.
<froud> people did not object
<ChrisH> froud: Although that isn't meant to be your problem. :)
<froud> My thinking is work small commit often
<ChrisH> froud: The changes were needed. And as you know we two had the same objections... wiki sucks... we need a meta-format for multiple output formats...
<ChrisH> froud: Just that your experience with docbook is far above from what I know.
<froud> Docbook meta can be arrnaged :-)
<froud> ChrisH, I offerred to help
<froud> and did so with plovs
<froud> questions, problems, come to me
<ChrisH> I don't mean to speak for others... but I often felt like "please... no basic change again... just let me finish one paragraph already before I'm forced to throw it away"
<ChrisH> And by ignoring recent talks here I at least did some work. :)
<froud> Why throw it away
<plovs> ChrisH: just do your stuff, i noticed that works best
* froud thinks there is something wrong in the work process
<froud> ChrisH, just hack the source
<froud> let me and svn take care of the rest
<ChrisH> Hmmm.
<froud> The changes (major) are long done
<plovs> i feel like a ten year old, but what major changes have been made?
<froud> Anyway I would not split UG unless all agreed. So far nobody has
<ChrisH> I'd like to learn more about the quirks of DocBook, too. But all the time I spend discussing here is less time I can spend writing.
<plovs> ChrisH: you are doing the admin part right?
<froud> plovs, I made framework a directory changes
<plovs> froud: trunk / tags /branches , that's a minor change
<froud> ChrisH, sometimes you have to do both at the same time. Write, write and write, you will learn docbook on the way, with help from me
<froud> plovs, IMHO yes
<froud> but not to everyone
<froud> have to think of the others
<ChrisH> plovs: Yes, I have started with that.
<plovs> you noticed there is documentation on gpm in yelp already
<plovs> i was wondering how to use existing documentation, copy and change it or link to it
<plovs> i can't get local links to work
<plovs> and copying ... i don't know, what do you guys think
<froud> plovs, I am not sure you are speaking about?
<froud> I dont understand
<plovs> froud: for example, in the userguide is a part on playing music, now we already have documentation on rhytmbox, which is quite ok, how to reuse that documentation.
<plovs> same with gpm, how does gnome work etc
<froud> where is the doc on rythmbox
<plovs> start yelp -> applications -> Multimedia Applications -> Rhythmbox Manual 
<froud> I understand
<froud> you want to use docs from other vendors
<froud> is that right?
<plovs> sure, it is all gpl-ed
<plovs> that's the whole idea of open source, re-use what is good, improve etc
<froud> in help you can link with the command yelp:appname
<froud> The problem is that this does not validate by default
<plovs> froud: in docbook?
<froud> or do I still not understand
<froud> yes in docbook
<froud> The Rythmbox docs are installed by GNOME
<froud> Skrollkeeper organizes the docs
<plovs> like this?  <link linkend="yelp:app">Cool app</link>
<froud> when you want to link from say the User Guide to Rythmbox docs you can therefore use yelp:rythmbox
<froud> yes
<froud> it shoudl work
<plovs> let me try, this would be cool
<froud> I can look iiit up in the GNOME documents and get back to you
<froud> I have not worried about it as It was not required
* froud point people to read http://developer.gnome.org/projects/gdp/handbook/gdp-handbook/ar01s02.html#scrollkeeper
* froud point people to read http://developer.gnome.org/projects/gdp/handbook/gdp-handbook/ar01s08.html
<froud> plovs, <ulink type=help url=ghelp:foo>text</ulink>
<froud> plovs, and this will validate
<froud> hope that helps
<plovs> froud: yes! that works
<froud> good
<plovs> i just added a link to synaptic documentation
<froud> as you said xmllint and froud , good tools :-)
<plovs> which means we can interlink all our docs, quickguide, userguide, faqguide and other docs
<plovs> utterly neat, thanks froud 
<froud> yes
<froud> I see indexterms will also work
<froud> but note, this only work for GNOME
<froud> we will have to engineer something for KDE when it comes
<plovs> somebody with kde should try and make a bugzilla entr
<froud> what do you mean?
<plovs> we should make a package of our docs, put it in scrollkeeper etc and then it will not work on kde and we have a bug
<froud> no we compile our packaaages to work with both pdesktops
<froud> its not a bug
<froud> its incompatability between desktops
<plovs> from a users viewpoint: package no work => package broken => bug (the rest is semantics), off course you are technically correct
<froud> fo rnow we only have gnome to contend with. I will engineer a solution for KDE
<plovs> froud: http://live.gnome.org/Yelp nice features for 2.10 (hoary)
<plovs> froud: good, do you know how to add docs to scrollkeeper?
<froud> Give me some time I will hack it. I already understand OMF files
<froud> ChrisH, you see talking is good, so long as it is on the subject :-)
<plovs> froud: can you do svn up and test userguide -> software -> synaptic link?
<ChrisH> I don't doubt that.
<ChrisH> I wonder why my point was so confusing that even after the 10th time it's misunderstandable... I don't think talking is bad.
* froud creates https://bugzilla.ubuntu.com/show_bug.cgi?id=5216 "create solution for doc integration with scrollkeeper"
<plovs> froud: as it looks from here ChrisH is a little tired of people coming in doing stuff making noise and disappearing again, we had a bunch of those, the problem was noise and disappearing not talking and doing
<froud> welcome to OSS
<plovs> :-)
<ChrisH> froud: No excuse.
<ChrisH> plovs: That's one part. The other part is changing the fundamentals so often that writers can't even finish one page before it has become either obsolete or severely changed.
<ChrisH> froud: Just because "in OSS" is appears to be done like that I don't think this is valid to do it the same way here.
<froud> ChrisH, OSS is based on "Gift Culture" that is just the way it goes.
<froud> ChrisH, you mean come and go
<plovs> come and go is ok, the part in the middle leaves something to be desired sometimes
<ChrisH> froud: Ah, okay. Yes, that's OSS sprit allright.
<ChrisH> froud: 90% of the "yeah, I'm on" people are indeed talkers.
<ChrisH> froud: That's why I wanted to at least contribute /some/ content to not be one of them. :)
<plovs> but we finally are seeing more comits, so lets keep this up
<froud> plovs, agreed
<ChrisH> As long as people's work isn't for /dev/null I'll agree to everything. :)
<plovs> ChrisH: /dev/dsp ?
<ChrisH> plovs: Nope. My sound card isn't working still...
<plovs> isa-card?
<plovs> some of my friends had that problem
<plovs> froud: does the link work?
<froud> dunno mate talking
<plovs> ChrisH: do you write about package management as well?
<ChrisH> plovs: Sound Blaster. But that's the Debian machine. :)
<ChrisH> plovs: Yes, about synaptic.
<plovs> did you write it already?
<ChrisH> plovs: No, Sir.
<ChrisH> plovs: the menus have been rearranged in Hoary so I'm not quite sure which part is on my list
<plovs> because i am ... uh .. not to upset you  but ... uh ... 
<plovs> also writing about package management
<plovs> so we should sync, and i can do something else if needed
<plovs> what i did is in trunk/userguide/software/chap-*.xml
<plovs> (not much yet)
<plovs> ChrisH: look at what i did and i'll move to "common tasks" ok?
<hornbeck> anyone around?
<plovs> hornbeck: hi!
<hornbeck> in the userguide if you click next it errors
<plovs> hornbeck: next what?
<ChrisH> plovs: which part exactly?
<plovs> trunk/userguide/software/chap-*.xml
<hornbeck> plovs: at the bottom of every page there is a Prev and Next button, if you click Next it errors saying that page is not there
<plovs> hornbeck: not an warty it ain't and don't
<hornbeck> I don't have warty :-)
<froud> hornbeck, under static html?
<plovs> waaah, mama thay are teasing me...
<hornbeck> froud: in yelp
* plovs dislikes vpn and routing and mail and everything
<plovs> btw do you guys also get this error: I/O error : Attempt to load network entity http://www.oasis-open.org/docbook/xml/4.3/docbookx.dtd?
<froud> hornbeck, it works for me
<hornbeck> hmmm
<plovs> froud: you have hoary?
<froud> plovs,  you must have docbook 4.3
<plovs> froud: i have
* froud is on SuSE :-)
<froud> hornbeck, do make clean
<froud> then make ug
<hornbeck> I have never done make
<froud> cd trunk/
<froud> make ug
<hornbeck> I am yelp userguide.xml
<froud> the output is in trunk/build
<froud> plovs, once you have docbook 4.3 check that your catalogs are right /etc/xml/
<froud> hornbeck, di dyou svn up
<hornbeck> I do about every hour
<froud> he he
<froud> what version of yelp is this
<hornbeck> let me check
<froud> hornbeck, also try svn up -r HEAD
<hornbeck> yelp 2.9.2
<hornbeck> I gotta run, I will post my findings
<froud> plovs, also note that xsltproc looks for XML_CATALOG_FILES in the env
<froud> if you wnat you can export it to your catalog, something like XML_CATALOG_FILES=/usr/share/xml/docbook/schema/dtd/4.3/catalog.xml
<froud> hornbeck, ok
<plovs> froud: yes, exporting it helped
<plovs> froud: it also makes yelp slow as mud
<froud> plovs, dont know why. but one is for sure your catalog system is confused
* froud creates https://bugzilla.ubuntu.com/show_bug.cgi?id=5218 "research build compatability for kde"
<froud> hornbeck, the problem with prev, next links seems to be a bug in Yelp 2.9.3
<froud> plovs, do you we want a single seriesid for scrollkeeper?
<froud> or do we want one for each book?
<froud> in addition, do we want a single OMF with all resources or an OMF per book
<froud> under what category do we install our docs
<sivang> froud: ask seb128
<sivang> froud: he is the one who does all the pckaging
<abelli> ciao
* froud thinks attitude sucks in #ubuntu-devel
<froud> sivang, as you saw. not much help there. At present my OMF does not have the category suggested
<froud> I do have this
<froud> <sect categorycode="GeneralLinux">
<froud>       <title>Linux</title>
<froud>       <sect categorycode="GeneralLinuxDistributions">
<froud>         <title>Distributions</title>
<froud>         <sect categorycode="GeneralLinuxDistributionsCaldera">
<froud>           <title>Caldera</title>
<froud>           </sect>
<froud>         <sect categorycode="GeneralLinuxDistributionsDebian">
<froud>           <title>Debian</title>
<froud>           </sect>
<froud>         <sect categorycode="GeneralLinuxDistributionsMandrake">
<froud>           <title>Mandrake</title>
<froud>           </sect>
<froud>         <sect categorycode="GeneralLinuxDistributionsRed Flag">
<froud>           <title>Red Flag</title>
<froud>           </sect>
<froud>         <sect categorycode="GeneralLinuxDistributionsRed Hat">
<froud>           <title>Red Hat</title>
<froud>           </sect>
<froud>         <sect categorycode="GeneralLinuxDistributionsSlackware">
<froud>           <title>Slackware</title>
<froud>           </sect>
<froud>         <sect categorycode="GeneralLinuxDistributionsSuSE">
<froud>           <title>SuSE</title>
<froud>           </sect>
<froud>         <sect categorycode="GeneralLinuxDistributionsOther">
<froud>           <title>Other</title>
<froud>           </sect>
<froud>       </sect>
<froud> sivang, my debs boxes also dont have this category
<froud> can you check your /usr/share/scrollkeeper/Templates/C/scrollkeeper_cl.xml to see ifyou have listings for ubuntu. Thanks
<plovs> ok, just walked back in, froud what did you ask me abourt scrollkeeper?
<plovs> ok, got to go again
<sivang> froud: were you talking abou registering docs into scrollkeeper?
<froud> sivang, you there
#ubuntu-doc 2006-01-09
* mpt lets it go ... he can't solve all of Ubuntu's problems ;-)
<Kyral> lol
<Kyral> We all do our parts :D
<Burgwork> Kyral, it is your wiki as well as mine
<Kyral> ah
<Burgwork> sorry, was on the phone at work here
<Kyral> but you are DocTeam god or something along those lines
<Kyral> hey LJ(again ;P)
<LaserJock> hi Kyral, what are you doing here?
<Kyral> I'm technically signed up for the Install Guide :D
<Kyral> but since the new installer doesn't exist yet...
<LaserJock> ahh
<Kyral> So I'm doing whatever needs to be helped with
<Kyral> Was renovating the Emacs wikipage...then my computer crashed before I could save it
<Kyral> So thats on the docket for tomorrow
<LaserJock> well lucas has gone wild on the MOTU wiki pages
<LaserJock> hopefully that works out
<Kyral> lol
<Kyral> Yah I was rummaging in CategoryCleanup
<Kyral> saw the pathetic excuse of a page for Emacs
<Kyral> and couldn't let the injustice slip :D
<LaserJock> Kyral: going to do a vim page next ;-)
<Kyral> hell no
<LaserJock> maybe I would have to do that 
<nickrud> a vim page for writing doc book would be gratefully read :)
<LaserJock> nickrud: there is a little bit of a vim docbook page but it doesn't have much
<jsgotangco> does anyone of you guys use emacs planner-el?
<Kyral> nope
<nickrud> LaserJock, I've read that one, and it didn't help much, either. Getting over that docbook hurdle is a bitch.
<LaserJock> nickrud: can you be a little more specific? What hurdles are you finding?
<nickrud> it's mostly the mechanics of formatting; actually, a quality guide to using nmxl in emacs (written from the emacs newbie perspective) would be nice
<nickrud> maybe next year I'll be in a position to give some useful feedback on that
<Burgundavia> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/News2
<Burgundavia> created a new page to start writing the next version
<Burgundavia> bon soir, robitaille 
<robitaille> Hi Burgundavia 
<Madpilot> robitaille: evidently the CCAgenda page had a mistake in the text, not in the link like I assumed... :P
<mdke> morning all
<Madpilot> hi mdke
<jsgotangco> hi
<Madpilot> so I put my name down for membership @ the next CC meeting - hopefully some of the DocTeam can make it?
<mdke> great news
<mdke> i can't make it but I'll leave a msg with Kamion as I usually do :)
<mdke> bshumate, you are a GOD
<mdke> Madpilot, there will be absolutely no problem with your membership, I'm certain
<Madpilot> mdke: thanks!
<jsgotangco> that open ssh wiki page is pure joy
<mdke> yep
<mdke> the wiki in general is improving a lot
<mdke> Madpilot, jsgotangco, are your wiki email notifications arriving? 
<Madpilot> yes - I'm not subbed to that many pages, though
<Madpilot> I'm not insane enough to sub to the entire thing like some people :P
<jsgotangco> yep its ok with me i still get 200+ emails a day
<mdke> hmm
<Madpilot> jsgotangco: you must have had fun when Burgundavia had his insane editing spree over Xmas...
<jsgotangco> jeezz
<jsgotangco> that was insane
<jsgotangco> it was obvious that the man was lonely during the holidays
<mdke> Madpilot, nice work on all those screenshots btw
<Madpilot> thanks - the Gnome screenshot util makes it stupidly easy, once I discovered ALT+PrntScrn
<Madpilot> jsgotangco: he was trapped at home recovering from minor surgery, actually :P
<mdke> man Burgundavia, you put EVERYTHING in cleanup ;)
<mdke> what's wrong with FrostWireHowTo?
<Madpilot> in November CatCleanup was about 180 items, IIRC, now it's 350+
<mdke> yeah
<mdke> hmmm
<mdke> what do people think about the creation of the CategoryNetworking?
<Madpilot> sounds good to me
<Madpilot> it might help gather up the bits and pieces that're still around the wireless & modem sections
<mdke> yeah, there is a guy doing some good work on those by the look of things
<mdke> ToddLambert
<mdke> he has created that category and is cleaning up those pages
<mdke> I msged him in the forums but no answer
<Madpilot> was he the guy who rebuilt the modem section?
<mdke> nope, different one
<mdke> argh! https://wiki.ubuntu.com/HelpOnProcessingInstructions is missing
<mdke> that's a system page, how can it disappear
<Madpilot> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/OrphanedPages <-- if anyone wants a LONG page of stuff that needs tweaking, here's a 1600+ item list :D
<Madpilot> a lot of those are probably redirect pages, though
<mdke> and home pages
<Madpilot> those should be in CatHomepage, though
<mdke> does that stop them showing up in OrphanedPages?
<Madpilot> it should, it means they're linked to from the CatHomepage page
<mdke> they are not linked to from the CatHomepage page, they just appear there as the result of a search macro
<mdke> they are not actually in the text of it
<Madpilot> yeah, you're right - because AaronFarias is in CatHomepage, but also OrphanPages... 
<mdke> yeah
<Madpilot> odd...
<mdke> ?
<Madpilot> so merely categorizing something won't move it out of Orphans - interesting
<mdke> sure, that page is just for pages which are not linked anywhere
<Madpilot> right, and the category pages themselves don't count as links
<mdke> nope
<mdke> they are like tags
<Madpilot> how very Web2.0 :P
<Madpilot> anyway, I need sleep... suddenly it's almost 0230 here... talk to you later
<mdke> night
<bhuvan> /quit/quit
<highvoltage> hehe
<highvoltage> hi, and happy new year, edubuntu-doc!
<highvoltage> anyone here know what the official ubuntu way is to create and restore backups?
<highvoltage> hi jsgotangco 
<jsgotangco> highvoltage, hey! happy new year!
<jsgotangco> back to work eh?
<highvoltage> jsgotangco: happy new year to you too!
<highvoltage> not yet, i'm connected with gprs atm.
<highvoltage> jsgotangco: do you know if there's an "official" ubuntu way of doing backups in ubuntu?
<jsgotangco> highvoltage, none really
<jsgotangco> we don't have graphical tools at all (in gnome)
<mdke> sbackup?
<highvoltage> that's a bit sucky
<mdke> i think it is a graphical tool
<highvoltage> mdke: it's not installed by default on ubuntu, is it?
<highvoltage> mdke: and happy new year to you too :)
<mdke> highvoltage, no, and same
<jsgotangco> i think the best candidate would be a tool that is in main
<jsgotangco> (no idea what that is at the moment)
<mdke> sbackup was developed as part of the ubuntu Google Summer of Code initiative i think
<mdke> but more work is being done, I've heard
<highvoltage> i'm finishing up some documentation for tuxlabs, which will become edubuntu documentation when it's closer to finished. so it needs to be main as far as possible.
<highvoltage> i think i'll talk about raid 1 and mention some of the tools in universe
<highvoltage> and perhaps some other basic, even though crude ways like using CD's/DVD's and dd'ing your one disk to another at midnight.
<jsgotangco> that would be a clever hack
<highvoltage> the dd thing?
<highvoltage> what i like about that above raid, is that you don't loose so much disk bandwidth.
<highvoltage> (which is very important in ltsp situations)
<jsgotangco> i feel guilty for not reviewing what's in svn lately, but i still update it every time
<jsgotangco> i should manage my time and do at least a review on a weekend :(
<jjesse> grin don't feel guitly sometimes i don't look at things for a couple of days
<Burgundavia> mdke, because I can; )
<mdke> Burgundavia, doesn't mean it's right though
<Kyral> Morning DocTeam
<mdke> morning Kyral 
<Burgundavia> mdke, there was something that caught my eye, forget waht
<Burgundavia> note that that SSH howot was the first brandnew doc I have not added to Cleanup
<mdke> that kinda removes the meaning of the category
<Burgundavia> not really
<mdke> if every doc goes in there, there is no distinction between ready, and not ready
<Burgundavia> not every doc is in there
<mdke> we need to be reasonable and understand that no page is perfect, but putting too much stuff in cleanup will not be helpful
<Burgundavia> that is also why I broke out NeedsExpansion
* mdke sighs
<jjesse> can i ask a stupid question?
<Burgundavia> jjesse, shot
<Burgundavia> shoot, even
<jjesse> what is the point of categories?
<jjesse> i mean if i'm looking for something i don't look in a category, i just search
<Burgundavia> to make navigation easier
<Burgundavia> because some people will use them
<mdke> you can create lists of pages tagged with specific categories
<jjesse> so if i was looking for laptop help i could look for everything that has a reference to laptops
<irvin> Burgundavia = Corey Burger ?
<Burgundavia> irvin, thats me
<irvin> quick question: if i add a new entry to the wiki should i add the category or will i wait for you?
<Burgundavia> irvin, go ahead and Be Bold!
<irvin> looking into CategoryCleanup, where can i find the standards documentation?
<Burgundavia> irvin, you mean a style guide?
<Burgundavia> or a page that tells you when to remove it from CatCleanup?
<irvin> what do you mean by this one: from CategoryCleanup, "This category lists pages that (1) do not follow the standards of documentation,"
<Burgundavia> ah
<Burgundavia> they don't follow our style guide or only tell part of the picture
<irvin> i see
<Burgundavia> in practice, often they are not abstracted to deal with more than just the one situation the writer ran into
<Burgundavia> anyway, I have to go to work. irvin, directly any further questions at Burgwork, so I can answer them at work
<irvin> ok thanks
<Burgwork> how do I get grep to supress the normal output and return 1 or 0 if it has found something?
<Burgwork> jjesse, ping
<mdke> Burgundavia, you can point people to WikiGuide if they ask about style
<Burgwork> mdke, ya, was trying to remember which page it was
<mdke> :)
<Burgwork> don't ask me, I don't know where the style guide is
<mdke> it's linked on WikiGuide
<Burgwork> yes, I realize that
<Burgwork> I was joking. Actually, I have never read the style guide
<mdke> we need to have something about when pages should be in CatCleanup on the WIkiGuide page
<mdke> that way people can easily find authoritative clarification on how it works
<mdke> but we need to decide ourselves what definition we want first, I suppose
<Burgwork> "anything that is crap"?
<Burgwork> how about this:
<Burgwork> badly formatted, incomplete or incorrect information, too specific
<mdke> too specific?
<mdke> the first bit sounds good
<Burgwork> too specific: something that only pertains to that can be better abstracted elsewhere, such as a installing wine for all windows programs
<mdke> i don't follow
<mdke> there is material we don't want?
<Burgwork> hmm
<Burgwork> what I mean is we don't want a page for every bloody type of network card
<Burgwork> when that could better be done in a single page
<Burgwork> oh, another thing: doesn't properly explain the topic
<Burgwork> ala https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ChillispotHotspot
<mdke> i think we need to realise that a wiki page will never be perfect
<mdke> anyway, perhaps we can discuss this by mail, or at the next meeting, or something
<Burgwork> next meeting
<Burgwork> yes
<mdke> cool
<jjesse> Burgwork: sorry was in another room
<BearHunter> hello everyone
<Burgwork> salut BearHunter
<BearHunter> I am going to install ububtu as a file/print server to connect to a few windows xp boxes . . .
<Burgwork> are looking for help?
<BearHunter> just a few questions
<BearHunter> am i in the right room?
<Burgwork> best to ask in #ubuntu , as this is not a support channel
<BearHunter> ok thanks
<Burgwork> np
#ubuntu-doc 2006-01-10
<Burgundavia> jsgotangco, I get the fun "hang on login"
<jsgotangco> hehe
<jsgotangco> jeezz
<jsgotangco> interesting days
<Burgundavia> X breakage is coming soon
<Burgundavia> jsgotangco, you got atheros in your laptop?
<Burgundavia> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UserContributedDebs <-- nuke?
<Burgundavia> links are dead
<jsgotangco> nope i have a happy ipw2200
<jsgotangco> Burgundavia, did anyone from freesoftwaremagazine email you?
<Burgundavia> jsgotangco, nope, why?
<jsgotangco> i received email from them
<Burgundavia> what abouts?
<jsgotangco> writing articles
<Burgundavia> cool
<Burgundavia> j #ubuntu-artwork
<Burgundavia> oh, sorry jsgotangco, you thought I wanted you to join -artwork
<Burgundavia> I didn't, merely a typo
<jsgotangco> ahhh
<jsgotangco> i thought something was cooking heh
<jsgotangco> are you able to update OOo properly?
<jsgotangco> it seems my dpkg is broken
<jsgotangco> hmm maybe a daily build should work
* jsgotangco grabs daily build
<Burgundavia> jsgotangco, known bug, should be fixed already
* Burgundavia grumbles about daniel
<haykel> Hi everybody
<haykel> Just found a Typo in the Ubuntu Pckaging guide
<haykel> didn't know where to report it, so i'll do it here
<Burgundavia> haykel, you need to talk to LaserJock, who si currently not here
<haykel> Chapter 2. chroot Environment
<Burgundavia> haykel, send an email to the list is another otion
<Burgundavia> option
<jsgotangco>  haykel and the document is pretty outdated at the moment, needs lots of love
<jsgotangco> Burgundavia, xorg love!!!!
<haykel> aha! So should I anyway try to follow the steps to create a new package??
<haykel> Or is it too outdated!
<jsgotangco> well it actually works
<jsgotangco> but its quite terse...
<jsgotangco> but feel free to try out the methodology presented
<Burgundavia> unexpected ubuntu --> http://elver.cellosoft.com/2006/01/04/project-post-mortem-the-apotheosis-engine/
<jsgotangco> hey that's ubuntu
<haykel> Would you suggest another tutorial for creating packages from source? I want to learn it the right way (and not the old way;))
<jsgotangco> Burgundavia, interseting blog
<Burgundavia> night all
<Burgwork> is the css on planet broked for anybody else?
<flujan> hi all
<flujan> I want to help the Ubuntu community 
<flujan> daniel holbach point this group
<flujan> are you in need of some help?
<Burgwork> flujan, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/HelpingUbuntu
<flujan> BurgWork, I already take a look in this page
<Burgwork> and?
<flujan> I just want to know who keep the ubuntu-doc project and how I could help. :)
<Burgwork> we all do
<Burgwork> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocteamGettingStarted
<flujan> good to Know... I'm willing to join your group our the Motu one... 
<flujan> Since I used slackware and just know I'm switching to Kubuntu... I prefer to work with some doc first
<Burgwork> currently we are looking for people to help with the docs for installation and packaging new debs
<flujan> I can help with the instalation doc. 
<flujan> In fact, I'm reading the Debian New Maintainers' Guide... ;)
<Burgwork> we also chat on the ubuntu-doc mailing list
<flujan> Yeap, Daniel post me this... I already join it. ;)
<flujan> So, did you have same conventions or format which I must follow?
<flujan> Burgwork?
<flujan> well.. now I must leave, tomorrow I will enter here again so we could discuss better..
<LaserJock> flujan: I believe the docteam wiki has info on that
<flujan> see you all
<flujan> ok!
<flujan> thanks LaserJock, see you later guys!
<LaserJock> cya
<mdke> hiya LaserJock 
<mdke> any progress on the packaging guide?
<LaserJock> hi mdke 
<LaserJock> nothing in the last two weeks, I was at my in-laws and parents for Christmas
<LaserJock> I just got back last night
<mdke> ah right, if you need anything, just shout
<LaserJock> I am going to work on it now
<LaserJock> well, I still don't have svn commit access yet
<LaserJock> at least I don't think so
<mdke> did we apply for it?
<LaserJock> I thought so but I honestly don't know if it got done
<LaserJock> I emailed elmo about it (and my @ubuntu.com address) a while ago but haven't heard from him
<mdke> did you open an rt request?
<LaserJock> no
<Burgwork> LaserJock, Ubuntu.com comes with being a member, automagically
<LaserJock> Burgwork: apparently not
<mdke> Burgwork, it's been broken for a while
<Burgwork> mdke, ah
<LaserJock> yeah and I wasn't at the last CC meeting to bug him about it
<mdke> LaserJock, open an rt request about adding you for membership and cc the list
<mdke> s/membership/svn
<LaserJock> mdke: where?
<mdke> you do it by email
<mdke> send to rt@admin.canonical.com
<LaserJock> so I should say that I'm and Ubuntu member and would like to have svn access?
<mdke> actually, perhaps best if one of us does it
<mdke> i'll do it tomorrow, if you give me your LP username
<mdke> you'll need your gpg key on it too
<LaserJock> my LP id is mantha and my gpg key is there
<mdke> rocking
<LaserJock> that would really help because I am going to get busy with the Packaging Guide ;-) 
<mdke> look forward to that
<mdke> OgMaciel, ping?
<mdke> OgMaciel, there is a guy translating https://wiki.ubuntu.com/WikiTips-pt-BR, please tell him not to bother, because it is about 12 months out of date. I've just eliminated the english page. his name is FRNSantos
<mdke> afk
#ubuntu-doc 2006-01-11
* hyperactivecrond is going to post the preliminary install guide to the list, but he needs to reboot to get into ubuntu. brb
<hyperactivecrond> i've posted to the list the installguide beginnings (made by me, Kyral thinks it's OK, very basic beginning).
<hyperactivecrond> so... first to svn wins i guess
<Burgwork> salut jsgotangco 
<jsgotangco> morning
<Burgwork> you mean afternoon? shall we involve mdke_ in this and say good night?
<Burgwork> yesterdays daily fails to install grub
<Burgwork> suppose I should report that
<hyperactivecrond> evening
<jsgotangco> Burgwork, yep, mine failed miserably
<jsgotangco> i should try an rsync of today's image
<hyperactivecrond> are we not supposed to gpg signattachments for the lists?
<jsgotangco> Burgwork, what image did you get? 1/5/2006?
<Burgwork> jsgotangco, I rsynced last night before the X stuff hit
<jsgotangco> ahh the current image should be working then
<jsgotangco> (i hope)
<Burgwork> what failed for me was the grub installation
<jsgotangco> yes
<jsgotangco> mine as well
<Burgwork> now playing with OEM install on flight 2
<jsgotangco> its borked
<jsgotangco> dunno about daily though
<jsgotangco> (i'll know in an hour though)
<Burgwork> OEM asks me for a password. Is this a bug?
<Burgwork> jsgotangco, ^
<jsgotangco> ummm
<jsgotangco> it creates a temp user 
<jsgotangco> the bug is more into the oem test
<Burgwork> when it starts the device db?
<jsgotangco> yep
<jsgotangco> its known in flight 2
<jsgotangco> dunno about daily
<Burgundavia> http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/FrontPage
<Burgundavia> ^ that doesn't bloody work, dammit
<jsgotangco> oh well
* Burgundavia doesn't consider that kind of breakage to be "oh, well", but there is nothing either of us can do about it
<jsgotangco> i remember helping henrik once with the moin transition
<jsgotangco> but really didnt know the time frame to actually move the whole site
<jsgotangco> (me has been doing mostly opencd stuff lately)
<Burgundavia> what sort of opencd stuff?
<Burgundavia> the page has moved
<Burgundavia> that is why planet is borked
<jsgotangco> orchard
<jsgotangco> yep
<Burgundavia> orchard?
<jsgotangco> Burgundavia, its the opencd development site
<jsgotangco> Burgundavia, we're going to do the next version in moin
<Burgundavia> ah
<LaserJock> anybody seen thCore lately?
<Burgundavia> not in a few days
<LaserJock> ok, I haven't seen him for ~ 2 weeks (I've been gone) and I wondered if he had worked on the packaging guide
<LaserJock> so the next meeting is going to be at 14:00 UTC right?
<Burgundavia> yep
<Burgundavia> 6am, lovely
<Madpilot> hi all
<Madpilot> am non-sober
<Madpilot> wearing an actual
<Madpilot> tie
<Madpilot> and full of amazingly good food
<Madpilot> worth wearing a tie for, even...
<Madpilot> :P
<LaserJock> hmm, 6am for me too
<Burgundavia> LaserJock, where do you live again?
<LaserJock> Reno, NV
<Burgundavia> holy crap, a commit
<Burgundavia> bhuvan, thats just wrong. Your not supposed to work on docs! ;)
<bhuvan> Burgundavia ? :)
<bhuvan> Burgundavia, i dont get you
<LaserJock> lol
<Burgundavia> bhuvan, I am joking about nobody actually committing for a long time
<bhuvan> ok
<LaserJock> I've just been saving up ;-)
<jsgotangco> heh
* jsgotangco shouts praises for amarok
<jsgotangco> ahahah WWE is coming over to manila next month
<mdke_> bshumate, GOD, i tell you
<jsgotangco> ?
<mdke_> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/OpenSSL
<jsgotangco> yes
<jsgotangco> we should put an "Editor's choice" stamp on it
<jsgotangco> heh
<mdke_> my god, that page is so good
<jsgotangco> it actually applies to any distro on the config side
<mdke_> i was looking for SSL guides recently, and that is much better than any I found for debian or in general :)
<jsgotangco> i configured an apache server a month ago for that, i struggled really hard
<jsgotangco> and it had a 3rd parth certificate provider
<mdke_> ah
<jsgotangco> i'd like to try it in ubuntu though
<jsgotangco> the first one i did for rhel
<mdke_> blimey, the guy paints too
* mdke_ is in awe
<jsgotangco> mdke_, i also paint
* jsgotangco just painted his house a few weeks ago
<jsgotangco> hehehe
<jsgotangco> joke
<mdke_> heh
* bhuvan have just committed https section
<mdke_> oh rock
<mdke_> jsgotangco, "Upstream freeze is upon us"?
<mdke_> you mean the gnome freeze?
<mdke_> oh, UpstreamVersionFreeze, 19th
<jsgotangco> :D
<mdke_> we've got until March 16th tho
<mdke_> *23rd
<jsgotangco> that's not a lot of time left
<jsgotangco> *really*
<jsgotangco> i couldn't pick up that much steam yet to my side project, thats why i couldn't even commit scat
<mdke_> scat?
<jsgotangco> poop
<mdke_> ah
<mdke_> didn't you say you had some changes to the serverguide?
<jsgotangco> yeah
<jsgotangco> im not to impressed with my current stuff :(
<mdke_> oh right
<mdke_> ok i'm off to work
* Burgundavia kicks LP
<Burgundavia> you can only subscribe people to bugs who are people in the LP database
<jsgotangco> part of me is to blame, i tend to procrastinate lately;
<jsgotangco> mdke_, who is rt@admin.canonical.com?
<Burgundavia> jsgotangco, I would guess the request tracker
<jsgotangco> ohhh yeah
<segfault> hi
<Burgundavia> salut 
<LaserJock> hi Burgwork 
<Burgwork> salut LaserJock 
<LaserJock> where do you live Burgwork?
<Burgwork> LaserJock, Victoria, BC, Canada
<LaserJock> ok, thought it was up there somewhere
<LaserJock> Does Madpilot live there too?
<Burgwork> yep
<LaserJock> did you go to the birthday party last night as well? Madpilot was really raving about the food
<LaserJock> it was kinda funny
<Burgwork> nope
<LaserJock> hmm, I can include more than one chapter in a file when I am using includes to put a doc together right?
<Burgwork> no idea, not a docbook expert
<LaserJock> all I did was cut-n-paste the chapter from one file into another that already has a chapter and now yelp won't load it
<Burgwork> run it on the commandline, it will spit out useful errors for you
<LaserJock> I get parser error : Extra content at the end of the document
<LaserJock> <chapter id="gettingstarted-chap">
<LaserJock> looks like it doesn't like having 2 chapters in one include
<LaserJock> I guess it could be because I have: <!DOCTYPE chapter PUBLIC "-//OASIS//DTD DocBook XML V4.3//EN" 
<LaserJock> I will just put it back the way it was
<Silfar> Fabio nogueira est
<mdke_> Silfar, ECHAN
#ubuntu-doc 2006-01-12
<Madpilot> busy place here tonight... :P
<Burgundavia> indeed
<Burgundavia> Madpilot, you make any progress on that poster?
<Burgundavia> Madpilot, oh, I will see you tomorrow and pay you back
<Madpilot> Burgundavia: money is good
<Madpilot> the poster is done, but are the date & room correct?
<Burgundavia> no, but I want the PDF because the pres of VLUG is on my ass about it
<Madpilot> OK, give me a minute3
<Madpilot> minute, even... :P
<Burgundavia> Madpilot, can you think of places that might be good to put up posters at?
<Madpilot> libraries - maybe web cafes too?
<Madpilot> oh, FFS... importing the SVG into Scribus made half the text vanish...
<Burgundavia> yes, I ran into that
<Madpilot> ... and that Tux svg is a massive thing, Scribus doesn't like it much...
<Burgundavia> yes, noticed that
<Madpilot> Tux works, at least. I'll just redo the blasted text, give me a few minutes and I'll email you the PDF...
<Madpilot> Burgundavia: part of the problem is that Scribus doesn't like the FreeFonts for some reason - FreeMono and the rest
<Burgundavia> ugh
<Madpilot> do me a favour - check the various bugzillas for that? they're both FLOSS projects, so bugfiling might have already been done - I'll ask on the Scribus ML as well
<LaserJock> maybe you should try MS Word ;-)
<Madpilot> LaserJock: Scribus isn't a word processor at all :P
<LaserJock> neither is Word ;-)
* LaserJock is just being stupid, sorry
<Burgundavia> http://bugs.scribus.net/view.php?id=2392
<Madpilot> Burgundavia: eh - check the 2nd comment from the Scribus dev @ that bug - I will have to rebuild the thing in Scribus then
<Burgundavia> ugh, strip out of the text and import that
* Burgundavia wishes Inkscape had PDF support
<Burgundavia> http://bugzilla.ubuntu.com/show_bug.cgi?id=21407\
<Burgundavia> see that, 3rd comment regarding fonts
<LaserJock> would gimp do it?
<Madpilot> LaserJock: we're going for PDF output, and that's Scribus' speciality
<Madpilot> I'm not sure GIMP can do PDF, actually. Haven't bothered looking.
<LaserJock> I don't know, I don't do that kind of stuff very much, although I need to make a poster this month for a conference so I might have to learn how to use Scribus
<Madpilot> Scribus is very cool, but it's one of those powerful programs that's easy to learn but hard to master
<LaserJock> cool, in my line of work the we usually use LaTeX but I think Scribus might be better for me
<Burgundavia> grr, bloody hell
<Burgundavia> I got SVG to embed in Docbook before
<Madpilot> LaserJock: I've fiddled with latex; Scribus is a fully graphical DTP app, though, so for posters & the like it's probably better than latex
<LaserJock> Madpilot: I agree, I spent forever last year making a 4ft.x4ft. poster for a conference last year in latex
<Madpilot> http://www.warbard.ca/temp/Ubuntu_CA_insert.pdf <-- my first ever Scribus project
<LaserJock> cool, looks very professional.
<Madpilot> thanks - the double-sided part is still a bit messed up, not sure why, when printed from PDF - printing it from inside Scribus itself works fine...
* Burgundavia beats up yelp for not spitting out error messages, but still failing
<Madpilot> Burgundavia: it prints, it looks big and penguin-y - PDF inbound shortly
<Madpilot> cool, it works in Adobe Reader too...
<Madpilot> Burgundavia: email off...
<Burgundavia> bloody hell, I spent a long time getting that text to align
<Madpilot> I spent about five seconds :P
<Madpilot> there are advantages to an actual DTP app, vs a vector drawing app
<Burgundavia> no, I am saying your text looks like ass
<Burgundavia> compare the way I had my text align vs. yours
<Madpilot> hm? It looks roughly the same as yours?
<Burgundavia> I right aligned the questions and left aligned the answers
<Madpilot> just noticed that - I'll fix it, just a sec
<Madpilot> Burgundavia: better text alignment? http://www.warbard.ca/temp/vlug_poster.png
<Burgundavia> yes, much better
<Madpilot> OK - PDF in a mo...
<Burgundavia> vlug.org is a bit too small
<Madpilot> Burgundavia: I've bumped it up, PDF coming...
<Burgundavia> Madpilot, going to avoid having to use a QT app for as long as possibly
<Burgundavia> need more space between the box and vlug.org
* Burgundavia spanks bhuvan for actually working
<Madpilot> there is no more space, the URL is against the lower margin already
<Burgundavia> then move the box up
<bhuvan> it was brian's patch :)
<Burgundavia> bhuvan, still, no working. We might actually release something for dapper if you keep doing that
<Burgundavia> Madpilot, figure Sharon will kick the bucket this weekend?
<Madpilot> Burgundavia: http://www.warbard.ca/temp/vlug_lastedit.png (and note the filename of this screenshot... :P )
<Burgundavia> looks fine ;)
* Burgundavia enjoys being boss
<Madpilot> it better - incoming, you lazy SOB...
<Madpilot> gah... Nautilus hangs on nearly any FTP action - after doing it, thankfully...
<Burgundavia> Madpilot, sent to Andrew Willard for "executive decision", b*****d
<Burgundavia> him, not you
<Madpilot> Burgundavia: you're just going to have to run for BoD, you know
<Burgundavia> nov 2006 I intend to
<Madpilot> http://www.tradeshowhell.com/?q=penguinpiss
<poningru_games> guys is there anything that will allow me to make little vids of stuff I am doing?
<poningru_games> kinda like a screenshot
<Burgundavia> poningru_games, istanbul
<poningru_games> except more like a screenvid
<poningru_games> oh
* poningru_games looks
<poningru_games> !info instanbul
<poningru_games> doh
<Burgundavia> wrong chan
<poningru_games> thats awesome
<poningru_games> thanks dude
<poningru_games> now if only there was a method to sync voice with it
<Madpilot> where on the wiki is the Dapper freeze timetable?
<Burgundavia> DapperReleaseSchedule
<Madpilot> thnx
<Madpilot> upstream version freeze 19th Jan - wonder if the latest stable release of Scribus will make it in?
<Burgundavia> file a bug about it
<Burgundavia> http://debian.scribus.net/debian/dists/breezy/main/binary-i386/
<Madpilot> 1.2.4.1 is the latest, so it's already been packaged for Debian
<Burgundavia> that includes cvs code
<Madpilot> no, that's the 1.3.x dev branch - 1.2.x branch is stable, non-cvs AFAIK
<Burgundavia> ah
<Burgundavia> when is the next stable version due to be released?
<Madpilot> no idea
<Madpilot> when it's stable :P
<Madpilot> Burgundavia: enhancement/dev "bugs" like this to bugzilla.u.c or malone?
<Burgundavia> if 1.2.4.1 is the latest stable, then wait until the next stable is releasee
<Madpilot> Dapper still has 1.2.3.something listed, though: http://packages.ubuntu.com/cgi-bin/search_packages.pl?keywords=scribus&searchon=names&subword=1&version=all&release=all
<Burgundavia> oh, then file in bugzilla
<Burgundavia> mention that we might want to pull directly from upstreams deb
<Madpilot> ok
<Burgundavia> I think the debian maintainer might build both packages
<Madpilot> Burgundavia: http://bugzilla.ubuntu.com/show_bug.cgi?id=22020
<poningru> anyone know what ubuntu-express will be called? I just read they changed the name
<Burgundavia> poningru, espresso
<poningru> wow
<poningru> cool
<poningru> thanks dude
<Burgundavia> always try and be helpful
<Burgundavia> Madpilot, http://news.lugnet.com/announce/moc/?n=3170
<Madpilot> Burgundavia: that's gloriously insane :P
<Burgundavia> arggghhh https://wiki.ubuntu.com/OtherWaysToInstall
<Madpilot> yikes
<Madpilot> nuke it, redirect to AddingRepos?
<Burgundavia> leave it for now
* Burgundavia braves #ubuntu
<Madpilot> "I want to pummel the author of..." :P
<Burgundavia> nah, just scare him
<Madpilot> Wiki-Writing Commandment The First: Thou Shalt Use The Search - As Crappy As It Is - Before Thou Creates A New Page
<Burgundavia> Madpilot, night
<Madpilot> later
<Madpilot> see you tomorrow?
<ompaul> curious does anyone know if there is a wiki page that specifically explains how to get "source code" from the repos onto a users machine - I think this is missing I have been looking for a little while this morning for same 
<Madpilot> we've got two seperate Compiling pages, only one of which actually tells you how to compile something... :P
<ompaul> I want to reference it - or write it but as I am not the best writer on planet earth I would like to find a better source for same (you may if you choose shoot me for the unintentional pun)
<ompaul> Madpilot, no I want apt-get source
<Madpilot> ompaul: not sure, and I'm just shutting down for the night...
<ompaul> k
<ompaul> I think the thing is write it myself you can tidy up the broken thinking in the morning :)
<ompaul> Madpilot, msg?
<Madpilot> ompaul: you can always contact the mailing list as well, if you want to bounce ideas around before writing...
<Madpilot> pm? go ahead
<ompaul> Madpilot, if I get on another mailing list I will loose any marbles I have left
<mdke> hi all
<ompaul> catch ya later sleep well
<mdke> ompaul, you can never subscribe to too many mailing lists
<ompaul> mdke, hehe
<Madpilot> anyway, I really do need sleep - later, all
<mdke> night
<ompaul> is there a guide for writing stuff on the wiki?
* ompaul feels the power of doing it right falling on his head 
<ompaul> anyone able to point me a wiki docs for the following subjects (a) standards of documentation, (b) Formatting correctly
<mdke> blasted powercuts
<LaserJock> hi theCore 
<theCore> hey !
<theCore> hi, LaserJock 
<theCore> it been a long time ... :)
<LaserJock> yeah
<LaserJock> I just got back from Christmas vacation
<LaserJock> have you gotten any farther with the Packaging Guide? I didn't do much over the vacation but I am starting to work on it now
<theCore> nah, I just made some few things like merging the Outline with PackagingGuide wiki page, and one paragraph of text
<LaserJock> one paragraph of text on the wiki or in the XML?
<theCore> i'm just don't what to write on the debhelper scenario, it's too easy
<theCore> xml
<theCore> with the hello package you just need to enter one command, so quite though to make a full page about that single command
<LaserJock> well, but we need to explain what it is doing I guess
<LaserJock> also that you have to inclued debhelper in the build dependencies
<theCore> for the scenario?, yes 
<dandielionous> hello
<hyperactivecrond> hello
<ompaul> anyone able to point me a wiki docs for the following subjects (a) standards of documentation, (b) Formatting correctly
<ompaul> or for that matter any docs that would point me in the right direction on those points?
<LaserJock> ompaul: wiki.ubuntu.com/DocteamGettingStarted should have some links at least
<ompaul> LaserJock, thanks
<ompaul> mdke, okay I'll join another mailing list (my poor pop server will be creaking :-))
<poningru> ok so I have been thinking hard about what to name dapper+1
<poningru> heres an idea
<poningru> gator
<poningru> golden gator
<poningru> greasy gator
<poningru> there is always
<poningru> grumpy gator
<shagha> hi... i've just installed ubuntu..can i ask a question?
<nickrud> shagha, sure
<shagha> actually on installing it, i created a user acount let's call it "me" , ok? then while i logged on with "me" account, i created another one "mee" set to default..
<nickrud> and a bunch of stuff doesn't work like you'd expect, I assume
<shagha> then while i was already logged on with the "me" account, i deleted "me" account. i logged off and restarted,right!?
<nickrud> ouch
<shagha> but i can't do any administrative task with the other account. 
<shagha> auch ! yes!:(
<nickrud> shagha, heh. 
<shagha> what?
<shagha> i ... well, i thought this might happen. just wanted to make sure! :D
<nickrud> well, first this is the channel for working on docs, #ubuntu is support. and
<shagha> aaaaaaaaoooooo
<shagha> sorry! 
<shagha> sorry sorry!
<shagha> i'll find the appropiate channel then .
<shagha> thx
<shagha> sorry!
<nickrud> no problem, we try to be nice
<nickrud> anyway, reboot in recovery mode, then 
<nickrud> adduser <mee> admin, and reboot
<shagha> :) THX!!!!!!!!!!!!!
<shagha> really thx. pple don't help me these days!
<shagha> bunch of thx . best wishes upon you! try to be good and happy ! ;) THAAAAAAAAAAAAAAANK.bye
<nickrud> shagha, #ubuntu is pleasant. Enjoy yourself
<shagha> i sure will! u too.
<Burgundavia> ahh, too many Brians!!
#ubuntu-doc 2006-01-13
<hyperactivecrond> err... according to https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocteamProjects there is "help wanted." i've actually been doing (italics)something(end) with it, so we are working on it ftr
<Madpilot> Burgundavia: that odd HowToInstall page on the wiki is ompaul's work
<Burgundavia> Madpilot, thanks
<mhz> has anyone seen jelkner or kjcole today?
<mdke> yep :)
<mdke> kjcole, mhz is looking for you
<mhz> mdke: thx
<mhz> ;)
<Hendikins> Quick question. Any idea why the wiki breaks a link to FirefoxAMD64FlashJava? It only linkifies the D64FlashJava section, which has left me needing to use an "external" link on FirefoxPlugins
<mdke> Hendikins, link using ["NameOfPage"]  or [:NameOfPage:Text for link] 
<mdke> Hendikins, see HelpOnEditing for more details
<Hendikins> Ah, right.
* Hendikins shouldn't edit at 2AM
<damnhil> how do I use https://docteam.ubuntu.com/repos/ ?
<damnhil> is rob1 here?
<mdke> damnhil, hello. that url is a subversion repository
<mdke> see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocteamStepByStepRepository
<mdke> in general, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocteamGettingStarted should be useful for you
<mdke> as for the preview site, you have to wait a while sometimes, the server is a bit slow
<damnhil> mdke: how do I commit changes after I modify the doc files at  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocteamStepByStepRepository ?
<damnhil> I got email from ubuntu doc mailing list saying I am not a member. How do I become a member of the doc mailing list?
<mdke> damnhil, go to http://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-doc and subscribe
<mdke> damnhil, as for committing changes, it should all be explained on the DocteamStepByStepRepository page, you need to send a patch to the mailing list
<damnhil>  mdke: I sent the patch to the person who edited the page instead. How do I commit the changes? I think I need username and password to access the doc CVS
<mdke> damnhil, hang on a second.
<mdke> damnhil, what did you patch?
<mdke> if you patched a document from our repository, you need to send the patch to our mailing list, someone will take a look at it, and commit it, if it works
<damnhil> I did not actually patch the webpages. I addressed the errors in the pages in the sent emails. I am compiling the 3 sent emails to send to the ubuntu doc mailing list. If I patch the doc repo, I will send it to the doc mailing list.
<mdke> ok
<mdke> damnhil, you understand that the webpages at doc.ubuntu.com are generated from xml source, which is contained in our repository, right?
<mdke> i have to go now, but feel free to ask any more questions on the mailing list
<mdke> /a/away
<damnhil> What's the webpage that has yes/no questions regarding to receiving email from the ubuntu doc mailing list?
<Burgundavia> damnhil, what is the issue
<damnhil> Burgundavia: I found it. It is at http://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/options/ubuntu-doc/freehil%40gmail.com Sorry.
<damnhil> Burgundavia: how do I see the message  I sent to the mail list ?
<Burgundavia> lists.ubuntu.com
<Burgundavia> look for ubuntu-doc
#ubuntu-doc 2006-01-14
<damnhil> what apt-get package has "xmllint"? I need it for ubuntu-doc/validate.sh to run
<Madpilot> damnhil: libxml2-utils -- Synaptic's search function is useful for this sort of question
<Madpilot> damnhil: are you also "Hil" on email?
<LaserJock> Burgundavia: do you know why a lot (if not all) the Debian documentation is GPL?
<Burgundavia> LaserJock, yes, I understand the issue. We had extensive talks about it at Mataro
<Burgundavia> we decided even though our stuff is DFSG-non-free, we would stick with those licenses
<jsgotangco> issue?
<LaserJock> our stuff isn't DFSG-non-free?
<LaserJock> or I mean DFSG-free
<Burgundavia> GFDL and cc-by-sa 2.0 are DFSG-nonfree
<LaserJock> I am really starting to dislike licensing. I thought that GFDL was the doc equivilent of GPL
<Burgundavia> yes, licensing sucks
<Burgundavia> it is, it just has some nasty bits
<bhuvan> doc.ubuntu.com is down ?
<jsgotangco> seems so
<jsgotangco> hmmm
<jsgotangco> that's the virtual server
<bhuvan> ok
<jsgotangco> let me look it up if i can find my account
<bhuvan> great
<bhuvan> i guess, help.ubuntu.com is down as well ?
<jsgotangco> i believe they reside on the same server (not sure)
<bhuvan> oh ok
<damnhil> Madpilot: yes
<Madpilot> just noticed that you've signed up for the wiki now - good
<jsgotangco> i saw changes
<jsgotangco> heh
<Madpilot> hi jsgotangco
<Madpilot> was just looking at this https://wiki.ubuntu.com/NoSuchFileOrDirectory - nice page but the name sucks
<jsgotangco> ohhh
<Madpilot> how about SearchFilesHowto?
<jsgotangco> wonder if some docs link to that file though
<Madpilot> I'll create the new page and redirect, rather than just rename
<Madpilot> the whole page is only a few days old
<Burgundavia> Madpilot, just nuke it
<Madpilot> renamed to FindingFilesHowto...
<Burgundavia> excellent
<jsgotangco> great \sh is being eaten alive in debian-devel list
<Madpilot> ouch... someone want to tackle this mess? https://wiki.ubuntu.com/windowsusersettings
<Burgundavia> he is arguing that LP is a good thing, even if non-free
<Burgundavia> he is doomed
<jsgotangco> yeah
<Burgundavia> Madpilot, you want to email the author of that page?
<Burgundavia> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Overcast
<damnhil> I am building kubuntu/adeptguide by typing make adept. I did not get index.html but index.docbook. I converted the docbook file using docbook2html. Am I doing it right?
<bhuvan> damnhil, i suggest you to try 'make adept-html' or 'make adept-web'
<Burgundavia> hmm, if you search for "linux desktop", you get no Ubuntu love
<Burgundavia> that needs to change
<jsgotangco> google spam
<Burgundavia> blogging about it now
<bshumate> gnu/linux desktop has fun results ;-)
<bshumate> (heyas all)
<bhuvan> i'm about to instruct Burgundavia to do that :)
<Burgundavia> bshumate, hmm
<damnhil> bhuvan: It is working! is Troy Williams here?
<jsgotangco> Troy Williams hasn't come here for quite a while im afraid
<damnhil> jsgotangco: How can I get my name added to https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocteamProjects ?
<jsgotangco> where are the changes you made?
* Burgundavia commands all that blog to google spam linux desktop and Ubuntu
<bshumate> bhuvan: was the validation error the <command></command> inside the <tip></tip> or something else?
<bshumate> oh, i see it in the commits list now.  thanks!
<bhuvan> it was due to couple of minor reasons: 1) yep, inside tip. 2) you have used para within para tag for one or two listitem entries
<damnhil>  jsgotangco : not yet but I will
<bshumate> bhuvan: what do you use to edit? i am still looking for an editor that does real-time validation of the xml
<bhuvan> hum, i use vim. it does not doe real-time validation, i afraid !
<bhuvan> s/doe/do/
<Burgundavia> jsgotangco, you on planet yet? Blog about your favourite linux desktop, dammit
<bshumate> bhuvan: ahh...how do you catch the minor errors then? eyeball? i tried it in yelp and it loaded without complaining, so that's why i didn't catch it.
<jsgotangco> Burgundavia, obviously you haven't been reading planet
<Burgundavia> jsgotangco, I don't read it, no ;)
<bhuvan> bshumate, you can run ubuntu-doc/validate.sh your_file.xml. it does the rest
<bshumate> ahh cool, thanks!
<damnhil> jsgotangco: Is anyone doing adept guide development?
<jsgotangco> nope
* jsgotangco has no idea where adept originated
<damnhil> jsgotangco: Can anyone give me some doc work to do?
<Burgundavia> jsgotangco, Kubuntu
<jsgotangco> Burgundavia, well i know that, i'm not sure though if its a kubuntu-exclusive thing
<Burgundavia> jsgotangco, there have been at least 3 attempts at a synaptic style gui for kde
<jsgotangco> adept is good but i don't find it intuitive
<Burgundavia> no, but it is the only gui with full support for debtags
<bshumate> heh heh heh...the curse of rms! j/k ;-)
<Burgundavia> ok, I think I have posted to enough places (sounder, forums and blogged about it)
<damnhil> jsgotangco: do you need exim4 for developing ubuntu-doc?
<jsgotangco> in planet corey?
<jsgotangco> nope
<Burgundavia> jsgotangco, I have been slightly easier on blogging recently
<jsgotangco> Burgundavia, it would be nice if we had a google pack for ubuntu
<Burgundavia> jsgotangco, big packs are actually quite useless, to be honest
<jsgotangco> its still good marketing
<Burgundavia> because they usually contain too much and too little at the same time
<jsgotangco> you know better
<damnhil> jsgotangco, the subversion-tools depends on exim4-base. Why is that?
<jsgotangco> damnhil, you don't need subversion-tools
<bshumate> jsgotangco: assuming i wanted to, what to do to become more official as an Ubuntu Member and such?  i've got a WikiPage, LaunchPad page, signed the CoC, contributed a goodly handful of things over the last few months, and so on.  what else do i need to do at this point, besides start bribing people? ;-)
<jsgotangco> just subversion really
<jsgotangco> bshumate, CommunityCouncilAgenda
<damnhil> jsgotangco, what doc are you maintaining?
<Burgundavia> holy crap, we are not within the frist 200 hits of "linux desktop"
<jsgotangco> damnhil, kubuntu docs mostly and currently doing g-a-i
<bhuvan> jsgotangco, i suggest you to approve bshumate as ubuntu-doc member in lp
<jsgotangco> hrmm
<jsgotangco> bhuvan, i haven't checked the queue
<jsgotangco> Burgundavia has approval rights as well btw :P
<damnhil> jsgotangco: what's g-a-i?
<bhuvan> ok :)
<Madpilot> damnhil: gnome-app-install
<Burgundavia> alright, I will do it
<bshumate> we still on for freaky friday, the 13th?
<bhuvan> atlast bshumate have bribed me :)
<Burgundavia> jsgotangco, shall I approve kevin cole too?
<jsgotangco> i don't see bshumate 
<damnhil> Do you have any doc that require someone to write?
<jsgotangco> damnhil, when you checked out svn, every doc there is pretty much open for contributions
<jsgotangco> Burgundavia, +1
<jsgotangco> heh
<Madpilot> damnhil: if you want to mess with the wiki, there's an entire category of stuff that needs work: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CategoryCleanup
<Burgundavia> jsgotangco, approved
<bshumate> jsgotangco: on CommunityCouncilAgenda now... ;-)
* bshumate FedExes bhuvan the agreed upon sum of money, and eight gigabytes of memory in small denominations
<jsgotangco> should we remove mako
<jsgotangco> hehe
<jsgotangco> joke
<damnhil> I found something missing in adept guide. Do you know any program in apt-get that gives you a configuration screen?
<Burgundavia> jsgotangco, mako is about to become far more involved
<jsgotangco> it was a joke
<jsgotangco> Burgundavia, can you change topic on this channel?
<Burgundavia> jsgotangco, you should be able to as well
<jsgotangco> oh
<Burgundavia> afaik, there is nobody who is here regularly who has ops
<jsgotangco> well you're the oldest docguy here i figured you had access
<bhuvan> bshumate, you should add yourself in launchpad ubuntu-doc queue to let Burgundavia/jsgotangco approve
* Burgundavia strokes his grey beard
<Burgundavia> robitaille, bon soir
<robitaille> hi Burgundavia 
<jsgotangco> mr. fridge calendar!
<bshumate> bhuvan: where is this? i am not finding it.
<Burgundavia> bshumate, welcome to LP
<jsgotangco> hahaha
<jsgotangco> LP is the future!!!
<jsgotangco> but future is not now
<bshumate> hahaha
<bhuvan> bshumate, go to launchpad.net/people/ubuntu-doc and click 'join this team'
<bshumate> computer store here locally, used to have a sign out front "The Future of Tomorrow is Today!"
<bshumate> alrighty...clicked join the team...no type of confirmation that my action had any consequence, but i'll put my faith in the future! ;-)
<Burgundavia> bshumate, you want to report a bug on that
<Burgundavia> the no-confirmation thing
<damnhil> do you think reconfigure is a word or re-configure?
<Burgundavia> damnhil, first, in NA english
<bshumate> Burgundavia: should i dare click it again? ;-)
<Burgundavia> bshumate, nah, your there
<Burgundavia> and now you are approved
<bshumate> Aha! I clicked it again, and *then* it informed me that I am a "propsed member" nice!
<jsgotangco> welcome to your doom
* bshumate files the boog
<bshumate> thanks! ;-)
* Burgundavia wonders why he takes on this responsibilities
<jsgotangco> make sure you're awake at 14UTC on friday
* Burgundavia is tempted by the "Leave team" button
<bhuvan> :)
* bshumate chuckles
<Madpilot> oh Dog, 14UTC again? Another 0600 meeting... :P
<jsgotangco> would 15UTC be better?
<bhuvan> bshumate, fyi, you should correct your wiki link. s/Brianshumate/BrianShumate/
* bshumate smells plone all over the place here
<Burgundavia> bshumate, bingo. Ubuntu/Canonical/Fieldwave is a little python mad
<bshumate> bhuvan: I created it as BrianShumate, and that is how it appears in some places, but it also shows as Brianshumate when I log in (?!)
<bhuvan> bshumate, i guess you can go to 'Edit Wiki Names' and correct it
<bshumate> aha! thanks!
<robitaille> jsgotangco,  and I'm about to put the meeting on the fridge
<robitaille> is it just me, but it seems the css of planet.u.c seems to be screwed up
<Burgundavia> robitaille, known bug, due to w.u.c change
<Madpilot> jsgotangco: actually 14UTC is OK, it seems to work for most people and I do have to work that morning by 0900
<bshumate> bhuvan: ok, corrected that.  where exactly were you spotting it as Brianshumate ?
<bhuvan> bshumate, it was in your lp home page. now, it's corrected
<damnhil> I just added a paragraph in adeptguide. Do I send it to the ubuntu-doc mailing list and the maintainer?
<damnhil> which is correct: "proceed to install the next package" or "proceed to the next package installtion"?
<Madpilot> damnhil: create a patch and send it to the list
<Madpilot> and how about just saying "install the next package"?
<damnhil> Madpilot: Can I attach the diff file in the email to the ubuntu-doc mailing list?
<Madpilot> yes
* mdke is thinking of starting the docteam wiki page cleanup
<jsgotangco> yeah yeah yeah!
<jsgotangco> our process as well
<mdke> mm?
<mdke> jsgotangco, what do you mean?
<jsgotangco> well some of those pages are extremely outdated
<mdke> oh fuck!
<mdke> auth server goes down, /me loses all work
* mpt now instinctively uses Cmd+A, Cmd+C before trying to save any Moin page
<mdke> yeah that's a good idea. I didn't even try to save mine, just "preview"
* Kinnison highly recommends using an external editor for large wiki edits
<jsgotangco> i use desktop moin too
<mdke> i use desktop moin, for my work/personal stuff, but not for working on the Ubuntu wiki
<mdke> external editor might be an idea
<mdke> i used to use one on zwiki
<mdke> because it integrated relatively smoothly
<mdke> Kinnison, is there a way of integrating an external editor with the moin wiki, do you know?
<Kinnison> mdke: there are various things people have written, personally I just cut&paste from the textarea into emacs and back when I'm done
* mdke nods
<mdke> i'll get into that habit
<mdke> jsgotangco, do you agree with the idea of using DocumentationTeam/subpage as a format?
<jsgotangco> sure
<jsgotangco> at least it'll clean up the namespace of sorts
<mdke> yes, although there will have to be some redirects at first
<Burgundavia> the LP guys need to seperate their auth engine from LP itself
<Burgundavia> so LP just becomes another client of the auth engine. Then they might actually be interested in not breaking the auth engine
<mdke> it seems they are working on that
<Burgundavia> mdke, if the next Ubuntu conf is in Europe, will you be able to make it?
<mdke> unlikely I'll be able to get off work, but it depends
<Burgundavia> what exactly do you do?
<mdke> Burgundavia, i'm a trainee lawyer
<Burgundavia> what area of law?
<mdke> commercial law
<Kinnison> Burgundavia: we *are* interested in not breaking the authserver
<Burgundavia> Kinnison, yes I knew that. <troll>You have worse uptime that PHP-based Wikipedia</troll>
<Burgundavia> mdke, are you talking contract law or inter-corp. disputes?
* Kinnison gazes blearily at Burgundavia before realising that it's just too early in the working year to cope with trolls
<mdke> Burgundavia, inter-corporation disputes involving contracts
* Burgundavia hugs Kinnison 
* Kinnison ruffles Burgundavia 
* Kinnison has only been at work for 45 minutes in 2006 and already I've failed to spot Corey playing silly-buggers :-)
<Burgundavia> I have to say, having dealt with the CEO and founder of Userful on Friday, I am glad that he works in Calgary and I in Victoria
<Madpilot> Burgundavia: you butting heads with your boss again? :P
<Burgundavia> Madpilot, no, he is just very very hard to actually have a conversation with
<jsgotangco> wow so it was a failure
<mdke> is https://wiki.ubuntu.com/QuickGuide ok for deletion?
<Burgundavia> mdke, go nuts
<Burgundavia> jsgotangco, a failure?
<jsgotangco> your chat with your ceo?
<Burgundavia> jsgotangco, we danced around. I need someone to ask for the patches
<Burgundavia> my company fails to understand the linux community
<Burgundavia> anyway, I really have to sleep. It is 2am here
<jsgotangco> night
* mdke boggles at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeamFAQ
<Madpilot> wow, the things that are lurking in the corners of the wiki, huh? :P
<mdke> yeah
<mdke> btw I'm being quite aggressive with deleting things, feel free to let me know if I go a bit too far
<mdke> we can put in some more redirects, if necessary
<segfault> morning
<bhuvan_> mdke, why did you remove DocteamKubuntu ?
<mdke> bhuvan_, i gave a reason when I deleted the page
<mdke> your proposal has been implemented
<bhuvan_> ok. but, dont we maintain it for archive reasons ?
<mdke> i don't see a reason to, you?
<bhuvan_> imo, it might be useful for a new comer just in case he wish to view the history behind the implementation
<bhuvan_> this is applicable for any wiki page which we may delete 
<Madpilot> bhuvan_: deleting the page doesn't actually remove the history
<mdke> it is worth documenting meinproc
<mdke> but i don't think that is the same thing as keeping old proposals which have been implemented
<bhuvan_> imo, wiki is meant for knowledge base. so, we should retain it hence new comers/contributors may be benefitted
<mdke> old proposals are no use as a knowledge base. Newcomers and contributors need clear, obvious explanations
<bhuvan_> ok
<mdke> that's what I think anyhow
<mdke> we definitely need to add an explanation of meinproc to DocumentationTeam/BuildingDocumentation
<bhuvan_> i just dont mean this document. but, be considerate before deleting developer/contributor related documents
<bhuvan_> in this context, yep, explanation of meinproc is mandatory
<mdke> i'll try to be considerate, yes
<bhuvan_> ok :)
<mdke> oh blimey
<mdke> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocteamPasoAPasol10n
<mdke> someone has translated our translation tools page
<Madpilot> this is a good thing, or not?
<mdke> not, i can't see a reason to do that
<Madpilot> given that translators should already speak reasonable English
<mdke> yes
<mdke> translators don't need to know our tools tho
<mdke> they just need to go to rosetta
<bhuvan> mdke, i guess i found an issue in breezy->ubuntu-docs package
<mdke> bhuvan, shoot
<bhuvan> the package don't contain the sample dir of all documents
<mdke> ah right
<bhuvan> for example, generic/faqguide doesn't contain sample dir. so, obviously the sampe file url breaks
<mdke> i think that is in bugzilla, it's fixed for dapper
<bhuvan> ok
<bhuvan> but, ubuntu/Makefile has an entry to copy sample/* for each document
<bhuvan> not sure whether it was added after the release ?
<mdke> in branches/breezy?
<bhuvan> yep
<mdke> hmm, perhaps it went to the wrong place
<bhuvan> ?
<mdke> the wrong directory or something
<bhuvan> but 'cd /usr/share/ubuntu-docs; find . | grep sample' returns nothing :)
<bhuvan> in this context, are we providing updates for breezy ?
<bhuvan> if yes, shall i check and address it for breezy
<bhuvan> if no, we can double check for dapper
<mdke> the updates for breezy are a bit dodgy at the moment. I prepared one, but it hasn't been uploaded yet due to some problems
<mdke> possibly, we can do another one later, fixing that issue
<mdke> if you figure it out, mail the solution to the list so that we have it archived
<bhuvan> ok
<jjesse> shoot i forgot how apply a diff to the document for the adept guide
<mdke> patch -p0 < whatever.diff
<mdke> if you've got them in the same dir
<jjesse> mdke: thanks :)
<jsgotangco> hey Belutz 
<Belutz> hey jsgotangco 
<Belutz> so you're coming to jakarta?
<jsgotangco> Belutz, hrmmmmm...am been busy lately :/
<jsgotangco> i could stay for a day...but that's still a big hrmmm...
<Belutz> i see
<jsgotangco> are you back in jakarta?
<Belutz> yup
<Belutz> since 28th of december
<jsgotangco> mdke, awesome wiki editing. thanks
<jsgotangco> how's the weather there? It's been cold here lately
<Belutz> it's still hot, but cold when its raining
<mdke> jsgotangco, thanks, np
<Belutz> jsgotangco, you know where you're going to stay yet?
<jsgotangco> Belutz, not really that would be easy though if its just one day
<jsgotangco> you'll know :)
<Belutz> hehehe
<Belutz> jsgotangco, so who else will be coming to jakarta?
<jsgotangco> Belutz, oh its mostly canonical staff (its business oriented)
<jsgotangco> i just wanted to go to jakarta
<jsgotangco> hehe
<Belutz> hahaha
<Belutz> you bring your wife and daughter?
<jsgotangco> yeah
<jsgotangco> probably stay for a weekend
<Belutz> great
<jsgotangco> we're going to talk about it this weekend
<Belutz> hmm i hope i could skip office at feb 1st
<jsgotangco> tiger air has this nice package
<Belutz> i see, shop till you drop in jakarta :D
<jsgotangco> i wanted to take time out with the family...i couldn't book a decent flight to hongkong disneyland :/
<Belutz> that's great to have time with family :)
<Belutz> maybe you could visit Taman Mini Indonesia Indah (Mini Park of Indonesia)
<jsgotangco> how much is $1USD right now?
<Belutz> wait let me check
<Belutz> hmm it's about Rp.9650
<jsgotangco> wow
<jsgotangco> what would that get?
<Belutz> what do you have in mind? :D
<Belutz> with that you can almost have 3 cans of coca cola for $1USD
<jsgotangco> wow its like korea then
<jsgotangco> hehe
<jsgotangco> so its possible for me to have a million in my wallet
<jsgotangco> heh
<Belutz> yup :D
<Belutz> just be careful with your money
<Belutz> and if you can, don't buy things from sellers on the streets, they might give you higher price
<mdke> jsgotangco, oh, one thing I didn't have the stomach to move was the old Meetings stuff, it will be worth doing that at some stage I guess
<jsgotangco> oh that's a pretty deep hole we're looking on those stuff
<mdke> there are about 10 pages I guess
<mdke> not too bad
<mdke> we should do a DocumentationTeam/Meeting page, then have Agenda and past meetings as subpages of that, I guess
<shirish> hi all
<mdke> hi shirish 
<shirish> hi mdke looking if somebody can clean up this doc https://wiki.ubuntu.com/AptMoveHowto as it doesn't give full info.
<mdke> shirish, anyone is free to alter docs on the wiki, you can login and edit it
<shirish> I have been trying things out & somethings have not been mentioned as to what the output should come, so would like to know how the actual operation takes place before changing stuff. Stuck at place.
<mdke> ah, well it is in our cleanup category, hopefully if someone knows something about apt-move, they will improve it
<shirish> I have been trying to know if somebody knows something about how to do things in apt-move but till now 0 results. Any ideas?
<mdke> you could try "man apt-move" and see if there is any better information
<mdke> or post to the mailing list, ask in #ubuntu, etc
<shirish> I'm there in #ubuntu, which mailing list should I ask stuff on?
<mdke> ubuntu-users
<shirish> thanx will do the same.
<mdke> shirish, np, if you find anything, be sure to add it to the page :)
<jsgotangco> good night
<LaserJock> hi theCore 
<theCore> hi LaserJock 
<theCore> i am currently working on the guide
<LaserJock> great, I just got a package into Universe and working on some MOTU Science stuff at the moment but maybe a little later you could send me what you have
<theCore> ok
<LaserJock> theCore: what section are you working on
<theCore> i'm finishing my draft of debhelper, then I'm going to start the w/o helper section
<LaserJock> I was going to work on the w/o helper section too but I haven't really done much there
<theCore> i was thinking to convert the https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/School/2005-12-10 page for this section
<theCore> it's quite complete
<theCore> it cover most of the topic 
<LaserJock> right, I also have a transcript (I think) of a motu-school session (unoffical) I had with somebody before that one
<LaserJock> I think I even used hello for that one
<theCore> yea, I got it
<LaserJock> from where?
<theCore> 19:32:14  <LaserJock> selinium: have you seen the Debian New Maintainer's Guide?19:32:34  <selinium> LaserJock, Ok, I have just realised, i have rebuilt my machine since I installed Pbuilder. I will need to install that again!
<theCore> 19:33:28  <LaserJock> selinium: well, you don't even need to do that first
<theCore> 19:34:22  <selinium> ok
<theCore> 19:34:50  <selinium> LaserJock, I am all yours!
<theCore> ;)
<LaserJock> yeah, that's it. I just found my copy
<theCore> my draft is too slim
<LaserJock> that's ok we can fill it out as we go
<theCore> did you commited my files ?
<LaserJock> no, I don't have commit access yet (mdke made a request for me last week) but I was waiting until we have enought to replace what is currently at doc.ubuntu.com
<theCore> ah ok, good idea
<Burgwork> revert? https://wiki.ubuntu.com/AutomatedProblemReports?action=diff
#ubuntu-doc 2006-01-15
<theCore> should we cover the basics of the filesystem, in the intro ?
<LaserJock> like what?
<theCore> does doc.ubuntu is down ? 
<LaserJock> I believe it is
<theCore> it look like the webmasters are doing some background changes ... (check the buttons on ubuntu.com, they're now smaller :/ )
<mdke> jdub, any progress been made on start.ubuntu.com or the yelp customisations?
<jsgotangco> yelp upstream changes?
<mdke> no...
<mdke> the plan is to do some ubuntu customisations of the yelp stylesheets
<jsgotangco> won't it bork upstream docs?
<mdke> bork?
<mdke> they would have the customisations too
<mdke> jdub?
<Burgundavia> jsgotangco, mdke you saw the plates shift in the gnome world today?
<jsgotangco> yep
<mdke> nope
<Burgundavia> mdke, FC5 will include mono
<Burgundavia> wonder what this means for beagle and 2.16
<mdke> is that a big deal?
<Burgundavia> mdke, up until now they have refused to ship it
<jsgotangco> http://www.0xdeadbeef.com/?p=159
<Burgundavia> http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/ForbiddenItems#head-3b240142fcfa3e417734f6f5338bf20c61ceec14
<mdke> i had gathered that from the first thing you said
<mdke> is it a big deal?
<Burgundavia> yes, a huge one
<mdke> ah
<jsgotangco> yes
<Burgundavia> because without RH's support, nothing mono would have gone into GNOME proper
<jsgotangco> the next rhel might include it then
* mdke goes to work
<Burgundavia> hence creating a huge divide
<jsgotangco> hehe more mono crack to come!
<Burgundavia> I expect f-spot for 2.16 and maybe beagle
<Burgundavia> then comes the showdown between rb and banshee
<jsgotangco> id go for banshee
<Burgundavia> it is crazy that there are two, with the same bloody UI
<Burgundavia> whichever gets chosen basically kills the other
<Burgundavia> anyway, I have to sleep
<jsgotangco> night
<Madpilot> good morning
<theCore> LaserJock, hi
<theCore> LaserJock, i don't think we need the ``Simple Packaging Walkthrough'' section
<theCore> we should concentrate more on the ``Learn by doing'' part
<LaserJock> theCore: you could be right, I just don't quite have a feeling for that yet
<LaserJock> theCore: if in the end we need it then we can easily add it
<mdke> bshumate, success?
<theCore> so, do we  remove the ``Simple Packaging Walkthrough'' chapter from the outline
* mdke doesn't have time to read the log
<LaserJock> theCore: well, we can leave it there for now and just not do it ;-)
<theCore> ok then , I will just comment it out
<LaserJock> oh yeah, I didn't make it to the CC meeting this morning
<mdke> LaserJock, no progress on commit access i suppose?
<LaserJock> mdke: no, I would like to poke elmo a little but I know he is very busy and might bite back ;-)
<LaserJock> mdke: so I have been biting my tongue
<mdke> i'll poke
<mdke> LaserJock, ^
<LaserJock> mdke: thanks, I just don't want to be a problem
<theCore> LaserJock, I made some changes to the outline, you may want to check it out
<LaserJock> theCore: ok, will do
<theCore> LaserJock, what is the difference between ``Packaging Scenarios'' and ``Building Scenarios'' ?
<LaserJock> well packaging just has to do with making the source package
<LaserJock> and building would be the various was to make the source package into binary packages
<LaserJock> like pbuilder 
<theCore> okay
<theCore> thanks
<theCore> so, what do think of my changes ?
<LaserJock> theCore: just a sec
<LaserJock> theCore: not sure about the filesystem and apt overview. What did you have planned there?
<theCore> so the reader can have a basic knowledge about those important things
<theCore> when you make a package, it's important to know things like where the man page is stored, where the bin goes, etc ...
<LaserJock> theCore: well, I would worry that it would create too much introductory material
<LaserJock> theCore: maybe we could just reference something
<theCore> yea, maybe 
<LaserJock> theCore: but you are right in that people will need to know where to but docs etc.
<theCore> LaserJock, a quick intro about the -dev packages would be nice too
<Kyral> yo
<Kyral> sorry I dropped off the face of the Net, my router decided to hate me
<mdke> Kyral, we forgive you
<theCore> Kyral, put linux on it
<Kyral> lol
<Kyral> I should actuallu
<Kyral> Summer project, build my own router
<theCore> LaserJock, I finished a really rough draft of the debhelper section in xml
<LaserJock> theCore: ok, email me what you've got
<theCore> LaserJock, is it okay if I send you my whole dir ?
<theCore> ls
<theCore> oups
<theCore> it's 290K big
<LaserJock> fine
<theCore> just a sec, so i can rip off the .svn dir
<mdke> theCore, LaserJock, in case no one has said this yet, thanks for working on this
<theCore> LaserJock, send
<Burgwork> bshumate, I approved your wiki team membership
<theCore> mdke, thanks
<LaserJock> mdke: well, thanks for letting us help Ubuntu
<mdke> not me guv
<mdke> ubuntu is open :)
<LaserJock> I have been turned off of so many distros because it was so difficult to just help
<bshumate> Heya, and thanks for that Burgwork! :-)
<Burgwork> LaserJock, I hear what you are saying
<mdke> ah :) hope you stay with us then LaserJock 
<Burgwork> bshumate, np
<Burgwork> we gained two members at this CC meeting, Madpilot and bshumate 
<LaserJock> mdke: well, I'm a member now so I can't just leave ;-)
<mdke> oh shit was Madpilot up today?
<mdke> didn't see that
<Burgwork> mdke, he passed, even without either of us being here
<Burgwork> there
<theCore> I hope will be member some day
<mdke> Burgwork, i had no doubt, but I like leaving fanmail when I can't make it ;)
<mdke> theCore, sure you will, just keep helping us :) 
<LaserJock> theCore: have you started a wiki page for you work?
<theCore> LaserJock, yes, but its still quite empty
<theCore> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/AlexandreVassalotti
<LaserJock> theCore: well, as long as you keep it up to date before long you will have enough
<theCore> should I include irc support log ?
<mdke> theCore, no, but mention that you help out
<mdke> theCore, nice splash screen btw, did you push it to the artwork people?
<LaserJock> theCore: yeah, usually the CC doesn't want to read a bunch they just want to see the areas you are involved in and briefly what you have been working on
<theCore> nah, I just posted it on the art forums
<mdke> theCore, i like it
<LaserJock> me too
<theCore> thanks, so where should I send it ?
<LaserJock> I suppose you could try the ubuntu-art mailing list
<bshumate> mdke: hello, and thanks for the vote of confidence!  i appreciate the fanmail! ;-)
<theCore> could someone send me a email at storm.kbot+test@gmail.com ?
<theCore> okay then ... 
<theCore> nevermind
<LaserJock> theCore: sorry, I was working on something else
<Burgwork> mdke, what the status of doc.u.c and help.u.c?
<mdke> bshumate, np
<mdke> Burgwork, ?
<mdke> responds here
<Burgwork> mdke, it was slow
<Burgwork> never mind
<mdke> yeah it's slow
<mdke> -> bed
<Burgwork> night
#ubuntu-doc 2007-01-08
<mdke> I'll sort it out
<nixternal> thanks
<somerville32> Would Xubuntu docs have the bug?
<mdke> I'll look there too
<mdke> done
<mdke> nixternal: looks like edubuntu aren't using any, so we'll leave that
<nixternal> thank you
<theCore> mdke: ping
<mdke> theCore: Please provide a bit of information about what you want and I will respond when I am around.
<theCore> uh, an auto-responder?
<theCore> nevermind, then
<crimsun> you gave him a contentless ping
<crimsun> in other words, don't do foo: ping
<crimsun> do foo: ping, I need info on blah blah blah
<crimsun> it's fairly annoying to come back, read backscroll, and find you were pinged but have no idea about what the ping was
<LaserJock> is that what tollef's planet post was for?
<LaserJock> I couldn't tell what you were supposed to do with it
<crimsun> yes
<crimsun> he recently updated/fixed his irssi script (thanks to mdke, who found some bugs)
<mpt> Still needs wording work, apparently
<somerville32> mdke: ping, can your script detect if my ping is not-contentless?
<somerville32> magic
<LaserJock> well, I assume it just looks for a line with just "ping"
<somerville32> Maybe I'll just start ponging people instead of pinging them
<somerville32> mdke: Can you approve my membership? Thanks :] 
<mdke> mpt: I'll accept rewording suggestions
<mdke> somerville32: ok.
<somerville32> mdke: thanks
<mpt> mdke, "(I'm not here right now, but ____ )" probably would work
<mpt> Rhe brackets being roughly equivalent to that whirring noise that alerts you to the fact that you've reached an answering machine
<mdke> mpt: I thought of that, but what if I am here?
<mpt> The brackets, rather
* mpt shrugs
<mpt> oh
<mdke> ok, I've thought of something
<mdke> brackets sounds good
<mpt> just the brackets by themselves might be enough
<mpt> mdke, ping?
<mdke> mpt: (In case I'm not around at the moment, please provide a bit of information about what you want and I will respond when I get back.)
* mpt approves
<mdke> why thanks
<mdke> mpt: how's it going otherwise?
<mpt> Launchpad's test suite is hideously slow
<mpt> Apart from that, it's well
<mdke> good
<mpt> svn: Failed to add file 'ubuntu/C/newtoubuntu/windows-glossary.xml': object of the same name already exists
* mpt kicks subversion in the goolies
<bhuvan> mpt: does it happen when you do 'svn update'?
<mpt> yes
<mpt> I fixed it by removing the file manually, but I shouldn't have to
* mpt misses "bzr pull --overwrite"
<mpt> (though if I'd been merging into my own bzr branch instead of sending mdke a diff I wouldn't have had that problem in the first place)
<mpt> Ow, yelp doesn't open pages any more
<mpt> Entity 'rsquo' not defined
<bhuvan> ok
<mpt> that's strange
<mpt> There seems to be an error in line 13 of gnome-menus-C.ent
<mpt> oh, missing ">" character
<mpt> Anyone want to commit that? :-)
<mpt> This missing ">" character is at the end of line 12
<bhuvan> i'll do
<mpt> ta
<bhuvan> mpt: fixed in r3630
<jenda> mdke: ping
<mdke> jenda: (In case I'm not around at the moment, please provide a bit of information about what you want and I will respond when I get back)
<jenda> heh
<jenda> mdke: who is in charge of the trademark policy page? Or, who are the people who have access? I reported this bug a month ago, and gave it a fair amount of time, because the page looks just terrible, and no one even touched it.
<jenda> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu-website/+bug/74247
<Ubugtu> Malone bug 74247 in ubuntu-website "http://www.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/TrademarkPolicy errata" [Undecided,Unconfirmed] 
<mdke> jenda: the problem is that not many people get bugmail about ubuntu-website. However, me assigning it to myself means that I'm going to do it
<jenda> mdke: ah, great newz. Thanks :)
<mdke> mpt: nice patch, thanks.
<mdke> mpt: we can remove the "What's New Since Ubuntu 6.06 (Dapper)" as upgrades dapper->feisty won't be a supported upgrade path I think (did we already discuss this?)
<mpt> mdke, ok
<mdke> mpt: now we just need to figure out what to do with the Gnome stuff and the stuff about users/sudo
<mdke> dunno if you have any thoughts on that already
<mpt> mdke, actually, I'd forgotten the previous train of thought I had about "What's new since Ubuntu 6.06"
<mpt> which went something like this
<mpt> "Upgrades from 6.06 to the next LTS will be supported, but not 6.06 to 7.04, so it's not really relevant"
<mpt> "yeah, but someone might do the supported upgrades from 6.06 -> 6.10 -> 7.04, and they won't spend enough time on 6.10 for 'What's new since 6.10' to be useful"
<mpt> "Perhaps, but not enough people will do that for writing help for them to be useful"
<mpt> "Oh, but, but, what about when the next LTS comes along and we *do* need that help? Wouldn't it be easier to compile it gradually, starting with the 6.10->7.04 changes, and building up from that?"
<mpt> mdke, as for your other question, I think "Desktop Overview" will almost always be too distribution-specific for upstream to say anything useful about it
<mpt> For example, it should begin with a screenshot overlaid with a bunch of numbered circles, and it will be pretty obvious if that screenshot isn't an Ubuntu one
<mpt> "Desktop sessions" is written from the implementation looking up, rather than the user looking down, and probably needs a complete rewrite :-(
<mpt> "Basic skills" makes sense, but needs much shortening
* mpt realizes that if you already have Ubuntu installed, the dual-booting section isn't really relevant either...
<mdke> mpt: it might be relevant to the live cd.
<mdke> but still.
<nixternal> oi!
<mdke> I wonder if those upstream things could be put into "Customising and Configuring your Desktop", as a top level topic, except basic skills, which could be in "New to Ubuntu 7.04"
<LaserJock> umm, silly question, where is all this TBH stuff in the repo?
<mdke> LaserJock: ubuntu/C or kubuntu/C plus generic/server
<LaserJock> oh wow, things have changed :-)
<mpt> mdke, yeah, quite a bit of the help should be different depending on whether you're running Ubuntu from the CD
<theCore> I am (trying) to design the new format for Project Mallard, so I would like your opinion how tags should be used. For example, which of those three ways to label a menu would you like better? http://paste.ubuntu-nl.org/870/
<nixternal> theCore: 3rd way
<mpt> theCore, I don't think the format needs to distinguish between control types
<mpt> just use <label> for all of them
<nixternal> actually the 3d way needs a little tweaking
<mdke> mpt: you need a way to get the arrows
<mpt> and then have some element which works the way <menuchoice> does now, to put around them, that inserts arrows between them
<theCore> well, &arrow;
<mdke> mpt: yeah. Perhaps that is out of our scope for this cycle. I thought actually a nice idea would be to put the *whole* switching from windows guide onto the Winfoss install, so that it appears when the livecd is inserted on windows
<nixternal> <menuchoice> automagically gives you the arrows
<mpt> which doesn't work solely for menu choices
<nixternal> or &arrow;
<mpt> but also for navigating through dialogs etc
<nixternal> but yeah what mpt just said
<mpt> mdke, that's a neat idea
<mdke> mpt: I'm going to chat to Henrik if I can find him
<nixternal> <menuchoice><guimenu>Applications</guimenu><guisubmenu>Accessories</guisubmenu><guimenuitem>Synaptic Package Manager</guimenuitem></menuchoice>
<nixternal> that looks about right
<nixternal> theCore: planning on using <keywords> in each section?
<theCore> nixternal: yep
<nixternal> cool
<mpt> theCore, so you could have something like <para>In Firefox, choose <guinav><label>Edit</label> <label>Preferences</label> <label>Security</label> <label>Settings</label></guinav>
<nixternal> i am trying it out with the kde docs, but need something other than htdig
<nixternal> is <guinav> something new? i haven't seen that before in docbook
<nixternal> or are you using a different dtd?
<mpt> ...</para>
<mpt> nixternal, we're talking about Mallard :-)
<mdke> nixternal: he is trying to contribute to designing a new file format
<nixternal> ahhhh
<nixternal> why can't you use docbook/xml or sgml?
<nixternal> i definitely like the shorter tags though
<mpt> because they suck!
<nixternal> heh
<mpt> or to be more specific:
<mpt> http://live.gnome.org/ProjectMallard
<theCore> mpt: I like your way
<nixternal> so mallard isn't vaporware anymore i take it
<mdke> nixternal: no, it still is!
<nixternal> mdke: well ya, but i am seeing activity though, which is great
<theCore> mpt: but, what about gui buttons?
<mpt> nixternal, very very early design stages => vaporware
<mpt> theCore, <label /> again
<mpt> In my example above, "<label>Settings</label>" *is* a button
<theCore> mpt: I like the idea
<mpt> I cannot think of a reason to use different elements for labels of different controls, unless you want to style them somehow to look like the controls, but if you did that people would click them by mistake instead of the real controls
<mpt> anyway, time for me to exercise and breakfast and stuff, bbl
<theCore> hmm... scriptable ...
<theCore> nevermind
<mpt> If you want actual buttons in help pages, fine, but not with a <label> element :-)
<mdke> ok, we can put the Switching guide in with the winfoss
<mdke> that should be pretty great
<nixternal> man, the license section of the mallard doc is nuts
<mdke> writing their own license is wholly nuts
<LaserJock> why is it that they can't use docbook?
<mdke> because it's limited to a very stiff <book> or <article> structure
<mdke> plus, it's tag soup
<LaserJock> I haven't quite made the connection from "Our doc system doesn't work well" to "We need a new license and markup language"
<mdke> I know the feeling, I posted to their list expressing that very opinion a while back
<nixternal> me either LaserJock, but im sure when it is all said and done it will probably make more sense
<LaserJock> so for things like TBH were you want to mix-n-match pages
<mdke> it's more difficult than it should be
<nixternal> which is different than what the freedesktop help standard calls for as well
<mdke> still, part of the justification is simply that a paradigm shift will be beneficial to gaining contributors
<LaserJock> interesting
<LaserJock> sort of like use saying "
<LaserJock> "let's use the wiki for docs so the barrier is lower"
<mdke> also, a big overhaul gives the chance to do things properly
<nixternal> that is very true
<nixternal> i hope KDE does something similar for kde4
<mdke> they need to get together
<nixternal> are we dual licensing still with CC and FDL, or are we CC only now?
* mdke blinks
<nixternal> or do we have 5 licenses now?
<nixternal> ;p
<mdke> nixternal: you know the answer, but https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/License
<nixternal> someone just asked me how many licenses were were using now
<nixternal> so as i joke i posted his, and then went with the 5 license point
<LaserJock> mdke: is it work noting on that page that the Packaging Guide is GPL? I doubt it matter much, but if somebody just grabs the whole repo or something
<LaserJock> s/work/worth/
<mdke> LaserJock: sure
<LaserJock> I hate being the exception, but I don't want to mislead anybody either
<nixternal> using the cc-by-sa allows us to incorporate sections of the book, but how does that work if we need to incorporate sections of kde or gnome docs?
<nixternal> kde is fdl
<mdke> nixternal: we can't incorporate them, but we can link to them
<mdke> or supply them as whole documents without modifying the license
<nixternal> ya, i figured linking would be the way to go
<mdke> we never could incorporate them, as a matter of fact
<nixternal> but for something like kubuntu customizing kcontrol and doing system settings instead, is slightly different the kde doc for it, which for us to use would need to be tweaked.
<mdke> do a patch on the package which provides the kde doc?
<mdke> or fork it and supply it as a separate document in kubuntu-docs
<nixternal> well the upstream version will always be different, but ya a fork is what i was thinking, but wasn't sure how the licensing works for it
<mdke> you can ship the document, as long as you keep the license notice
<nixternal> could i take a fdl document, pull from it bits and pieces as needed, keep an fdl license as well as provide a cc-by-sa license (dual licensing it) and then use it?
<nixternal> heh
<mdke> no
<nixternal> ok
<nixternal> kind of acting like a middle man with it, i can only dual license docs that i create then
<mdke> or that are already dual licensed
<nixternal> ya
<nixternal> that's good to know, all of these licenses nowadays will make your head spin
<nixternal> muhaha, i can create upstream patches and apply them myself now :)
<mpt> mdke, the term "tag soup" doesn't usually mean "far too many element types", it means things like "<foo> <bar> </foo> </bar>"
<mdke> nixternal: for relatively small changes, a patch will be the way to go
<mdke> mpt: I've changed the definition to be sane
<mdke> :(
<nixternal> nah mdke, i was referring to that i just received my KDE svn/bug/email package :)
<mpt> The Web is famously tag soup, not because there are zillions of elements, but because browsers are resilient in the face of improperly nested elements
<mdke> nixternal: I was referring to our earlier conversation about whether to fork or do a patch on the package
<nixternal> oh oh
<mdke> best to patch the package that provides the document
<nixternal> plus easier at the same time
<mdke> well, that depends on whether you understand package patch systems
<mdke> I guess you do
<nixternal> i hope i do
<nixternal> otherwise my packages will break computers :)
<nixternal> i have 3 months to make MOTU, and the MOTUs seem to be on vacation
<mdke> they are just lazy. Get your whip out on LaserJock
<nixternal> no doubt
<nixternal> thank god for crimsun though, he has helped me out tremendously, although I think I am starting to wear on his nerves
<nixternal> RSI break!
<LaserJock> nixternal: VACATION!?! ;-)
<LaserJock> mdke: does https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/License look ok?
<mdke> LaserJock: sure
<mdke> mpt: I definitely think we can cram quite a lot of the upstream stuff into "Customising your desktop" as a top level topic
<mdke> not sure about the explanation of sudo and users/groups
<mdke> maybe they fit in there too actually
<mdke> will try and knock something out on that before bed
<mpt> mdke, users/groups is part of what I intended a top-level "Keeping your computer safe" category for
<mpt> * Use a separate account for each user  * Use a firewall  * Lock the computer when you're away from it
<mpt> etc
<mdke> mpt: that sounds interesting
<willvdl> could it make sense to link a topic like that from more than one top-level category?
<mdke> willvdl: if appropriate, sure
<mpt> One thing I *nearly* did yesterday was include, in the "If you've been using Windows" contents page, a comment about including a list of those questions most commonly asked by people coming from Windows
<mpt> which would be a bit different from those questions most commonly asked by people coming from Mac
<mpt> etc
<mpt> so certainly there can be multiple links to the same topic
<mdke> nod
<willvdl> hence topic based context really helps I guess
<mdke> mpt: what program do you use for editing? It's lovely and tidy
<mpt> mdke, gedit
<mdke> mpt: really, any special plugins or do you do all that yourself?
<mpt> no special plug-ins
<mpt> I have a New Year's resolution to teach myself vim
<LaserJock> I just use a bit of everything :/
<LaserJock> which is probably why my .xml files don't always look consistent
<mdke> mpt: so you're wrapping the lines and indenting them yourself? that's very tidy
* mdke sees if he can copy that
<mpt> It's more paranoia than tidiness
<mpt> My room is a mess, but having a messy room doesn't lead to validation errors
#ubuntu-doc 2007-01-09
<mpt> And putting clauses on separate lines means future rewordings will have easier-to-read diffs.
<mdke> yes, it's particularly helpful for that
<mdke> oh crap
<LaserJock> hmm, that doesn't sound good
<bdmurray> w/in 4
<nixternal> no
<nixternal> within for, or /window 4 :)
<bdmurray> gah, nobody was supposed to notice
<mdke> :)
<mdke> mpt: I've uploaded some changes to newtoubuntu.xml, hopefully it looks (somewhat) sane now. I've added proper links to the gnome upstream documents so you can see where they go; I've made "Customise your computer" and "Keep your computer safe" topics and moved some things into it. Comments show the serious issues remaining :)
<mdke> LaserJock: ubuntu-docs has a Recommends: yelp, if we move that to Depends, should the "Recommends:" line remain, but blank, or should I remove it entirely?
<LaserJock> remove it
<mdke> LaserJock: thanks
<mdke> LaserJock: your views on the policy? yelp is the only viewer that can read our docs
<LaserJock> I don't think it hurts
<mdke> LaserJock: btw how can I get it so that debuild uses my secret key? I always get errors when building because of that.
<LaserJock> technically you could convert the xml to HTML and view it that way
<LaserJock> mdke: add DEBFULLNAME and DEBEMAIL to ~/.bashrc
<LaserJock> and make sure they are the same as what it's in your gpg key and changelog entries
<mpt> mdke, awesome, I'll have another look tomorrow
<mpt> Tonight I'll concentrate on Mallard
<LaserJock> mdke: what about the server guide though, WRT yelp?
<mdke> mpt: sure.
<mdke> LaserJock: what do you mean?
<LaserJock> mdke: bah, I guess TBH messes that all up anyway :/
<LaserJock> I was just thinking if somebody wants to read the Server Guide on their server they don't want to have to get yelp
<mdke> LaserJock: we're planning a server topic in Yelp.
<mdke> LaserJock: we only ship xml, how would they read it?
<mdke> I discussed with bhuvan the possibility of shipping a separate serverguide, as a standalone document
<LaserJock> well, we *had* talked about converting to HTML or info pages
<mdke> we can do that
<LaserJock> I think it could be online even (servers should have internet access for the most part)
<LaserJock> anyway, TBH kinda blows away the server guide argument for keeping yelp Recommends:
<dsas> Why would anyone access online docs using a server when they're probably accessing the server via ssh and a desktop?
<nixternal> LaserJock: or debuild -S -sa -k<keynum>
<LaserJock> nixternal: but that's horrible to have to do every time :-)
<nixternal> or in ~/.gnupg/gpg.conf add your key as default :)
<nixternal> not if you script it like i do :)
<nixternal> nixbuild *.dsc
<LaserJock> nixternal: well, I don't have any problems with it so ...
<nixternal> err
<nixternal> that is my pbuildone
<nixternal> argh
<LaserJock> dsas: I suppose
<nixternal> LaserJock: i don't anymore either :)
<nixternal> server docs should be in info or man page layout imho
<LaserJock> dsas: I suppose server setup might be done at the machine
<mdke> nixternal: oh, i wonder if my key isn't default
<LaserJock> nixternal: well, dsas's argument is a good one
<nixternal> wouldn't they use the desktop to access the online docs?
<LaserJock> yeah, that's the point
<LaserJock> so why have man or info docs
<nixternal> ahhh
<mdke> if we ship a standalone serverguide, we can ship it in man and HTML
<LaserJock> yeah
<LaserJock> that makes sense
<nixternal> well, you would have them LaserJock if you were setting up a server in a remote close away from such "*net" access
<LaserJock> maybe s/man/info/
<LaserJock> nixternal: but I wonder if the serverguide will be much good to you then
<nixternal> mdke: if we do it in html then we would have to have an cli html client installed by default, which I don't know if there is one by default
<nixternal> LaserJock: it wouldn't :)
<mdke> eh?
<nixternal> especially if you didn't knwo it was there
<mdke> isn't there a cli html client installed in the default server install? That would be rubbish if there isn;t
<LaserJock> I'm pretty sure w3m or lynx is
<nixternal> mdke: i always install lynx after i setup a server
<nixternal> lynx isn't
<LaserJock> hmm
<mdke> or alternatively, if the standalone serverguide wasn't installed by default, it would depend on a browser, that's no issue
* nixternal checks his box for w3m
<nixternal> w3m is installed
<nixternal> but it stinks!
<LaserJock> w3m rocks
<mdke> stop whinging
<LaserJock> w3m kicks lynx's butt anyday ;-)
<mdke> LaserJock: bashrc still not working
<nixternal> w3m is confusing
<mdke> gpg: skipped "Matthew East <mdke@ubuntu.com>": secret key not available
<mdke> gpg: [stdin] : clearsign failed: secret key not available
<mdke> debsign: gpg error occurred!  Aborting....
<LaserJock> mdke: do you use seahorse?
<mdke> yes
<LaserJock> or other gpg agent
<LaserJock> ah, there's your problem
<nixternal> i forgot gnome uses seahorse, sorry
<mdke> is there a bug?
<LaserJock> yep
<nixternal> ya, seahorse is dookie, as well as kgpg. it is better to edit keys by hand in cli
<LaserJock> I don't use seahorse or any gpg-agent so I'm fine
<mdke> seahorse is great
<mdke> I never have to enter any passwords for anything
<nixternal> i use gnupg-agent and pinentry-qt for KMail and packaging
<nixternal> it is quite nice
<LaserJock> well, it's just that dbuild doesn't work with them
<LaserJock> anyway
<mdke> maybe they will fix it
<nixternal> LaserJock: isn't there an env you can set for dbuild that will use the key??
<LaserJock> mdke: can you use debuild -k<emailinkey>
<mdke> dunno. I'm not going to worry about it
<mdke> time for sleepies!
<LaserJock> nixternal: DEBFULLNAME and DEBEMAIL do the trick for me
<nixternal> g'nite Mr. East
<nixternal> </james bond voice>
<LaserJock> mdke: I think perhaps standalone server guide and packaging guide might be nice
<nixternal> hmm, i only have debemail in mine
* nixternal exports debfullname
<nixternal> actually, debemail will do that trick on its own
<nixternal> it calls the email which is tied to my key
<LaserJock> well, it could be debemail is sufficient
<LaserJock> I just do wha tthe docs tell me :-)
<nixternal> it must be, thats all i have in basrc
<nixternal> .bashrc that is
<nixternal> i usually do as well, but somehow didn't do the debfullname this time around
<dsas> I always have the same problem mdke has, gpg-agent never works either.
<LaserJock> dsas: with your key not working when running debuild?
<dsas> LaserJock: yeah
<LaserJock> there is a setting in the gnupg.conf that you can set to turn of the gpg-agent stuff
<LaserJock> that'll fix it
<LaserJock> but you also loose gpg-agenting
<dsas> which also never works :)
<LaserJock> there you go ;-)
<LaserJock> honestly, I've never had a problem with debuild and gpg
<LaserJock> but many people do
<dsas> I've got used to typing my passphrase now anyway, I've turned off gpg-agent and I'll just wait and see what happens next time I attempt to build something
<LaserJock> yeah, I always type my passphrase
<LaserJock> but the only thing I use it for is packaging
<mpt> goodnight mdke
<mdke> nuit
<highvoltage> !seen Burgandavia
<Ubugtu> New bug: #78570 in ubuntu-docs (main) "dvd decryption with /usr/share/doc/libdvdread3/install-css.sh is deprecated" [Undecided,Unconfirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/78570
<jenda> mdke: thanks for that fix ;)
<mdke> jenda: yw
<mdke> jenda: thanks for spoon feeding them to me
<jenda> hehe
<jenda> happy to help.
<LaserJock> did I every tell you guys I dislike doc licensing :-)
<mdke> just grin and bear it, it'll be over soon
<LaserJock> I think wiki.u.c almost has to be Public Domain-ish
<mdke> can't see that one happening
<mdke> then Microsoft would use all our ideas!
<LaserJock> heh
<LaserJock> \o/
<dsas> time to pop the champagne?
<LaserJock> hmm, I poped a Dr. Pepper
<mdke> hardest fought spec EVAR award
<LaserJock> popped, I think
* nixternal is drinking a DP now :)
* nixternal toasts to mdke and the rest of the crowd
<nixternal> even though I am a FDL lovah
<nixternal> LaserJock: they read my Rosey vs. the Donald email on Fox :)
<LaserJock> me? no
<LaserJock> oh, "they" sorry
<LaserJock> awesome dude
<nixternal> john gibson is an idiot
<nixternal> although he did enjoy my "congressional degenerates" comment
<LaserJock> :-)
<LaserJock> dude, send me the email
<LaserJock> hmm, ubuntuguide in farsi
<nixternal> hehe, k
<nixternal> sent
<LaserJock> nixternal: nice and inflamitory, I like it ;-)
<nixternal> hehe
<nixternal> im going to email greda tonight as she is hyping it as well
<LaserJock> bah, I can't stand watching greda most of the time
<LaserJock> thank goodness I don't have cable
<mpt> What's the hardest fought spec EVAR?
<mdke> mpt: WikiLicensing
<mdke> 15 months, approved, hi five
#ubuntu-doc 2007-01-10
<somerville32> mdke: Can we discuss someway to reduce launchpad spam? lol
<mdke> somerville32: you could setup a filter?
<somerville32> There is nothing I could filter it on
<mdke> filter launchpad bugmail
<somerville32> I want launchpad bugmail
<somerville32> I just don't want get launchpad bugmail on ubuntu documentation
<mdke> I mean, filter it into a separate directory
* somerville32 uses gmail.
<somerville32> I tag it already
<mdke> can't you filter?
<somerville32> It has tagging
<mdke> sounds like it sucks to me. Well, what solution do you propose?
* mdke filters on ^X-Launchpad-Bug.
<somerville32> Maybe creating sub-teams and changing the bug contacts to these sub-teams?
<mdke> and the subteam would be "everyone-except-somerville32"?
<mdke> (the whole point of having bugmail is so members of the team can fix the bugs)
<somerville32> Right but I'm wouldn't fix Ubuntu, Edubuntu, or Kubuntu documentation bugs - I'd fear stepping on people's toes.
<mdke> generally lots of bugs appear in all derivatives. Potentially xubuntu is an exception, because it doesn't have much documentation, but you're here to change that!
<somerville32> lol
<somerville32> True
<mdke> let's think it over, you may be right
<somerville32> But then they should do proper triage
<somerville32> And apply it to the Xubuntu documentation product
<mdke> we do great triage!
<somerville32> :D
<somerville32> Awesome.
<mdke> is there a separate product?
<somerville32> I have no idea but I'm sure I could create one if there isn't already
<mdke> I'm not convinced its a good idea
<dsas> but I'm sure everyone can give input on most things, no matter which -docs package they care about the most.
<mdke> part of the reason we keep the code together is to encourage this collaboration
<mdke> the best solution may well for you to read the bugmail!
<mdke> :p
<somerville32> mdke: TBH, I really don't have time for that, lol
<somerville32> And I don't think that changing the team layout would change how we collaborate. Xubuntu people are still expected to the Documentation and I'm still going to ask questions if I need help :)
<somerville32> *to do the Documentation for Xubuntu
<mdke> do you think it would have a confusing effect for people looking to file bugs?
<somerville32> I think that it is more confusing for people now
<somerville32> If Xubuntu user xyz wants to file a bug, I think they might hesitate before assigning it to the ubuntu documentation product
<mdke> you may be right
<somerville32> It would most likely get assigned to the Xubuntu meta package
<somerville32> and then all of us would get spammed
<somerville32> lol
<somerville32> I see what you mean though
<somerville32> About it being one big team
<somerville32> And we should stress that we are STILL one big team
<mdke> let's have a think. I still think the best solution may be to stay where we are, but you have some valid points
* somerville32 nods.
* mdke hugs manicka 
<manicka> howdy mdke
<LaserJock> well, my solution is that LP should have something that tells you why the heck you're getting the email
<mdke> LaserJock: somerville32's complaint is about getting it in the first place
<LaserJock> but I think it's fine to get it in the first place if you can at least sort it out
<somerville32> Right
<mdke> well, you can sort it out already
<somerville32> Not in gmail
<dsas> Some people don't realise and get angry though. Particularly when they file ubiquity bugs.
<mdke> filter in the launchpad-bug header and content for ubuntu-docs
<mdke> somerville32: that's gmail's fault though
<somerville32> mdke: I want Xubuntu bugs
<mdke> somerville32: "content for ubuntu-docs"
<LaserJock> mdke: I don't think that'll work
<LaserJock> it'll catch quite a few
<LaserJock> my most of the bugemail I get doesn't really let me know why I'm getting it, which is annoying
<mdke> oh, they use the short url for the bug link
<mdke> sucks
<LaserJock> somerville32: we don't have enough bugs to really worry about, IMO
<LaserJock> and it's important to see what bugs are going on elsewhere in the repo
<dsas> mdke: it makes sense, otherwise the package might have changed by the time you read it and it's then confusing
<mdke> dsas: wouldn't prevent a reference to the task in the footer though
<somerville32> LaserJock, I have a screen full of bugs for stuff I don't need to have
<mdke> yeah, you're lucky you aren't subscribed to ubuntu-website, somerville32. I did the same amount of bugs on that this evening
<LaserJock> the only thing I can see is the "it's confusing for users to know what to file a bug against"
<dsas> mdke: Oh no, I think LaserJock is right it should say why you're getting mail about it,
<LaserJock> somerville32: but I'm saying that rarely happens and I'll submit that you may need to have them
<dsas> I get mail all the time from bug commentors, "here's the debug log you asked for", and I haven't a clue what package it is.
<somerville32> LaserJock, It is mostly typos
<LaserJock> there have been many occasions when an Ubuntu doc bug was also a Kubuntu doc bug, etc.
<mdke> dsas: nod
<somerville32> Right
<somerville32> And in that case, the traiger should an apply to the xubuntu-docs product
<LaserJock> dsas: mhm, I almost mentioned that when sabdfl asked about the Malone wishlist
<dsas> LaserJock: Heh, my mind went blank at the time.
<somerville32> Most cases where that would occur, I'm sure it is evident enough that someone would atleast mention it to us
<LaserJock> somerville32: anyway, ubuntu-doc bugs are still important to at least filter through to see if anything applies to you
<LaserJock> and doc bugs are a pretty small drop in the bucket ;-)
<mdke> yeap
<LaserJock> you could always filter against Matthew East ;-)
<somerville32> lol
<mdke> you'd miss all the wisdom though
<somerville32> Do you really think I read them now? :P
<LaserJock> I at least browse them
<LaserJock> it's hard to tell what applies and what doesn't
<LaserJock> and it's cool to see what's going on anyway
<dsas> I read them and I haven't done anything in months
* dsas is a list junkie
<LaserJock> man, there are some real email junkies out there
<LaserJock> the people that are subscribed to all of wiki.u.c
<LaserJock> and to the bug mailing lists
<LaserJock> I can't handle that much info flying at my face :-)
<LaserJock> hi theCore_
<theCore_> hi LaserJock
<LaserJock> been thinking about some major Packaging Guide reworking lately
<theCore_> oh?
<theCore_> what kind of reworking?
<LaserJock> well, more content, of course
<LaserJock> reordering of examples
<theCore> hmm... maybe I could help
<LaserJock> I'll try to put up an outline on the wiki page tonight
<theCore> ok then, I look at it and see what I can o
<theCore> s/o/do/
<somerville32> For the packaging guide and the packaging from scratch section, I don't think you should pull stuff from an already existing package.
<somerville32> Kind of defies the premise of packaging from scratch
<LaserJock> somerville32: it's also kinda hard to write documentation for packaging from scratch
<LaserJock> without having an example
<LaserJock> I'm think of putting debhelper first
* somerville32 nods.
<LaserJock> but I know what you mean
<LaserJock> I never really liked how that worked out
<somerville32> Since I just recently learnt how to package, maybe I could help out?
<LaserJock> yeah, once I get my thoughts down on paper, etc. I'm going to blog and email for people wanting to write
<LaserJock> I don't have time to do it all myself
* somerville32 gets out a pen and paper.
<somerville32> Ok, so I lie :) I'm actually using my whiteboard.
<somerville32> mdke: I thought that the documentation was built nightly and placed on doc.ubuntu.com
<mdke> somerville32: that's broken atm
<mdke> xubuntu probably still works, actually
<somerville32> Unfortunately I don't see my changes
<mdke> does "make all" in the xubuntu directory work?
<mdke> yeah it does. Hmm, should be working
<mdke> somerville32: oh, it is stuck on updated the repository due to a bug. I'll fix it
<somerville32> Awesome :] 
<mdke> ah, two bugs
<mdke> all better now
<somerville32> Is it rebuilding now?
<mdke> it's done
<somerville32> mdke: Did you get my e-mail?
<mdke> somerville32: I don'y know
<somerville32> I just sent it
<somerville32> Regarding fesity documentation spec
<mdke> email normally arrives ok, assume it got it
<somerville32> mdke: I don't see the updates to the Xubuntu documentation yet
<somerville32> oh sorry
<somerville32> Cached
<somerville32> :)
<somerville32> I see it now
<FactTech> mdke Are you online at the moment? Seveas pointed me to you.
<FactTech> Is anyone online at the moment? I can't tell if I'm being block for not having registered my nick yet.
<mdke> jenda: can you dispose of that nonsense in -locoteams pls?
<jenda> mdke: working on it.
<jenda> I don't have the power myself.
<mdke> ok
<jenda> mdke: which name are for kickin'?
<mdke> those ones
<mdke> also, maybe get ops for a few more people?
<mdke> Seveas, myself, yourself, elkubuntu spring to mind
* mdke fixes the preview server
<mdke> nixternal: if you wanna follow my example for Kubuntu maybe?
<LaserJock> preview server?
<mdke> LaserJock: you've forgotten all about the docteam :(
<LaserJock> no, I just don't know what you are refering to :-)
<LaserJock> doc.ubuntu.com ?
<mdke> you remember we have that server at doc.u.c which hosts our documentation in development.
<mdke> it's been broken since we rearranged the whole of our tree
<LaserJock> yeah, I just don't think of it as a preview server, that's all :-)
<mdke> aha
<LaserJock> I think of it as doc development server, or something
<LaserJock> anyway, I'm with you know
<LaserJock> *now
* mdke hugs
<mdke> http://doc.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/C/index.html
<mdke> so why aren't there any translations in kubuntu-docs?
<mdke> they are missing from debian/rules
<dsas> mdke: I get a 404 at http://doc.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/C/newtoubuntu/windows.xml
<mdke> dsas: yeah. it's not easy enough to fix right now
<mdke> you'll see a fair few more too, sadly
<mdke> jenda: !! are mailing list/forum deltas that easy?
<jenda> mdke: it seems they are.
<mdke> this is a chance of making significant progress in forum integration
<mdke> jenda: I've replied excitedly
<jenda> mdke: has me wondering, why we only have one so far.
<jenda> :)
<mdke> this has so much potential
<jenda> 
<mdke> damn, my screen has gone funny and I can't read what you just said
<Seveas> mdke, yeah, I'll ask jono about more ops when he signs on
<mdke> say it again?
<mdke> Seveas: thanks
<mdke> jenda: sorry, I missed your last comment. Can you repeat/
<jenda> Seveas: I msg'd Yann about it.
<jenda> mdke: it was just a smiley ;)
<dsas> mdke: "" :)
<mdke> damn you dsas, you made my screen go funny again
<mdke> is this some hippy character that breaks irssi/screen?
<dsas> mdke: Heh, you have a non UTF8 client.
<bdmurray> mdke: works for me
<willvdl> looks good in xchat
<mdke> i think it's a gnome-terminal thing, it's been doing weird things to me recently
<bdmurray> I'm using konsole, irssi, screen so maybe
<mdke> I have irssi+screen on dapper and gnome-terminal on feisty
<jenda> mdke: Confirmed - it's possible.
<jenda> mdke: Ryan will get to it tonight.
<mdke> jenda: I think one for devel-discuss should be the priority then. We should consult with whoever the admin of that is
<jenda> shweet
<mdke> admins
<jenda> now... who is?
<mdke> lists@admin.canonical.com
<jenda> hehe :)
<jenda> mdke: will you or should I?
<mdke> I will
<mdke> I'm *too* excited about this
<mdke> hopefully it can be put in a good place in the forum heirarchy
<jenda> mdke: have a look at teh current layout - I'd see the cleanest implementation as 'Community team mailing lists' below loco team forums.
<nixternal> mdke: i will get the kubuntu side up tonight
<LaserJock> mdke: what are you excited about?
<mdke> nixternal: rock
<mdke> jenda: i don't think it should be at the bottom at all
<jenda> mdke: neither do I, but tech support takes the first spot.
<jenda> make that below or above the loco forums ;)
<mdke> jenda: it would certainly be in "Community Discussions" yeah, and thus under tech support. But I think it should be the first item in there
<jenda> mdke: we probably won't push it ahead of the forum community.
<jenda> (BTW, I didn't realise what I said first was at the bottom :))
<mdke> well, I think the structure could be played around a bit there, but tbh, I'll be glad to see mailing lists there
<jenda> Yeah - if it looks like it works fine, we can try negotiating a restructuring.
<mdke> i'll cc you on the email
<jenda> great, thanks.
<mdke> sent
<mpt> mdke, common/C/contributors.xml is missing according to doc.ubuntu.com
<mpt> oh, and bravo for adding "Keeping your computer safe" :-)
<mdke> mpt: there are quite a lot of broken links, I'm afraid
#ubuntu-doc 2007-01-11
<mdke> can someone try editing https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuHashes please?
<Laser_away> "You are not allowed to view this page."
<mdke> to view??
<mdke> you can't even see it?
<somerville32> "You are not allowed to view this page."
<Laser_away> mdke: nope
<somerville32> mdke: nope
<Laser_away> I'm logged in too
<mdke> wtf
<somerville32> Me too
<somerville32> or wait
<somerville32> no, I'm not
<mdke> that makes no sense
<mdke> how about now?
<LaserJock> nope
<mdke> ffs
<mdke> now, surely?
<mdke> help! LaserJock
<mdke> somerville32!
<mdke> stupid Moin
<somerville32> :)
<somerville32> "You are not allowed to view this page."
<mdke> any browser caching or something?
<mdke> alright, I'll better test the bugger myself
<somerville32> I cleared the cache
<somerville32> still not working
<LaserJock> still no workie
<mdke> ok, now you can view it
<mdke> how about editing it?
<LaserJock> I can see it
<LaserJock> no editing
<LaserJock> "immutable Page"
<mdke> phew
<mdke> god Moin is a PITA
<LaserJock> I even tried to put the edit url in
<LaserJock> :-)
<mdke> thanks for your help, both
<somerville32> np :)
<LaserJock> mdke: "those who can't, test" ;-)
<LaserJock> my goodness, a lot of people edit Mark's wiki page
* somerville32 still thinks this release should have been called Funky Fairy
<nixternal> Kubuntu Makefile is working again :)
<linuxphotogeek_> svn help anyone?
<nixternal> whats up?
<linuxphotogeek_> Is there a way to change or add to a 'commit' message?
<nixternal> edubuntu docs updated and ready for building
<nixternal> LaserJock: ^^
<nixternal> well i guess i could do them as well :)
<nixternal> svn commit -m "commit message"
<nixternal> linuxphotogeek_: ^^
<linuxphotogeek_> I've already committed using esvn and it had a message selected
<linuxphotogeek_> I didn't notice unitl too late
<nixternal> ah, i don't know about esvn, im a command line user.
<nixternal> i'm sure there is a way to do so though
<LaserJock> linuxphotogeek_: I don't think you can just post-edit the comments
<LaserJock> nixternal: excelent
<linuxphotogeek_> I guess I could make a trival change and recommit but seems messy
<nixternal> so now it seems all of our docs are building again!!!
<nixternal> mdke rocks!
<LaserJock> nixternal: hmm, so should I add the debian/ dir to edubuntu/ like ubuntu and kubuntu?
<nixternal> i would do it like ubuntu, not kubuntu since we build all of our xml to html for KHelpCenter
<nixternal> which I am going to fix for the next release (feisty+1)
<LaserJock> well, but I mean adding the packaging to the doc team repo
<nixternal> all kubuntu docs will end with .docbook so we don't have to build them seperately
<nixternal> LaserJock: yes
<nixternal> you know the packaging stuff better than i do, and i feel more comfortable having you at least start it, then i will ahve no problem maintaining it
<somerville32> Does help.u.c have a newer version of the MoinMoin then wiki.u.c ?
<LaserJock> it's possible
<mdke> somerville32: no, same version
* somerville32 forgets what he asked.
<mdke> somerville32: Moin versione.
<mdke> versions*
<somerville32> ah
* somerville32 nods.
<mdke> somerville32: you can get system and version info from SystemInfo on moin wikis, for future interest
<somerville32> kk, thanks
<mdke> linuxphotogeek: nice work!
<mpt> !!!!!!
* mpt hugs mdke 
<mpt> Thank you for that tip!
<mpt> I have been wondering that for years
<mpt> Now I can understand the differences in the various wikis Canonical uses
<alefteris> is it possible to create a table without borders or define its color at the ubuntu wiki?
<willvdl> alefteris, it is. just looking up the references
<willvdl> darn, could have sworn I did it somewhere
<alefteris> willvdl, you mean about the borders? i looked the wiki help about formating and i didnt find anything. Is it possible to set it with css styles?
<willvdl> alefteris, could be, haven't tried. Sorry, thought I knew how to do it but can't seem to get it right
<willvdl> nixternal ping
<nixternal> pongidy pong pong
<nixternal> I'm popular this morning
<willvdl> you are?
<nixternal> ya, everyone is pinging me
<willvdl> maybe they like the way you respond
<nixternal> hehe
<willvdl> I'm helping out with a conference in nigeria and am looking for some nice videos
<willvdl> Tutorials, Freedom, Demo type things
<willvdl> got any favourates?
<nixternal> hmm
<nixternal> ya, actually i do
<nixternal> let me grab a link
<nixternal> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z1x7xPUA5YM
<nixternal> that is a great video of 2 great leaders in Open Source
<willvdl> ooh. cool
<willvdl> gonna need to download a bunch of these things. west africa is not big on connectivity
<nixternal> willvdl: i recommend you watch that one first to see if it qualifies
<nixternal> it is Jeff and Pia Waugh :)
<nixternal> and was a joke by the way ;p
<willvdl> yeah I noticed :)
<nixternal> lol
<nixternal> for tutorials, i would say talk to popey as he is the Ubuntu Video Tutorial Master!
<willvdl> groovy
<nixternal> for demos, there were some on http://www.ubuntuvideo.com/
<willvdl> I've got go-open campaign DVDs as well which are quite nice
<nixternal> that will definitely help
<nixternal> is there a link for those DVDs at all?
<willvdl> ooh, lemme check
<willvdl> it's a collection from the tv show
<willvdl> http://www.go-opensource.org/go_open/
<nixternal> thanks
<willvdl> can't find links to the video though
<willvdl> ah http://www.go-opensource.org/go_open/news/download_go_open/
<nixternal> ya, just found them :)
<willvdl> my word my kubuntu is unstable today
<willvdl> kaffeine wont play the dvd, kmail crashed 3 times and kopete does weird things to my text
<willvdl> I liked this one http://youtube.com/watch?v=QOlrKH3SmtI
<nixternal> i love my kubuntu stability :)
<nixternal> OMG WOW1
<nixternal> ! too :)
<willvdl> wouldn't play the DVD if I had videos open in firefox
<willvdl> don't get me wrong, I love all untus. just today I had probs
<nixternal> my only problems are the latest feisty images not booting for me
<nixternal> im going to try a live cd now
<willvdl> erm, I'm an idiot. Is there any way to download videos off ubuntuvideo?
<nixternal> i use a script called gentube from kde-apps.org
<nixternal> the ubuntuvideos are pretty much all youtube
<nixternal> hrmm, and obviously gentube doesn't work
<willvdl> flash videos
<willvdl> mostly?
<nixternal> http://www.youtubex.com/
<nixternal> ya they are mostly flash videos, especially if they are youtube videos
<willvdl> ok, that link helps
<willvdl> what do you reckon will happen to quality if I convert format?
<nixternal> dunno, going to try that now
<willvdl> hmm, youtubex doesn't like rewritten urls
<nixternal> i can't figure out how to convert this video
<willvdl> what you using?
<nixternal> nothing yet
<willvdl> try choosing an application :P
<nixternal> dunno which one to use, im a newb when it comes to this sort of stuff
* popey notes his name mentioned
<popey> hello willvdl nixternal
<willvdl> hey
<popey> i suspect nixternal was referring to http://doc.ubuntu.com/screencasts/
<willvdl> just trolling for videos/tutorials to showcase at a conference
<willvdl> yip, I imagine
<popey> when is the conference?
<nixternal> i am not having any luck converting flv files
<mdke> mpt: hugs
<popey> nixternal: ffmpeg -i foo.flv foo.mpeg  ?
<willvdl> popey, perhaps you could explain to me how to download a google video? just can't seem to get it right
<popey> i have never downloaded a google video
<popey> are you after one in particular?
<nixternal> popey: how come it says i need to download adobe flash when i goto /screencasts?
<popey> one of mine? or someone elses?
<willvdl> popey, is there any loss of quality in that conversion?
<popey> willvdl: no, flv is already crap :)
<nixternal> lol
<popey> nixternal: because the screencasts are in flash format
<willvdl> do you have better quality versions somewhere?
<popey> but if you click the title you get a page where you can download the ogg or mpeg
<nixternal> hrmm, interesting, i have flash already installed
<popey> yes, the mpeg2 - the biggest ones, are the best quality
<willvdl> woohoo
<popey> text is nice and readable at 1024x768
<popey> when is the conference ?
<popey> if you have any particular things you would like to see, do let me know
<willvdl> 12-22 MArch
<popey> plenty of time ;)
<willvdl> well, it's actually for the legal fraternity with some members from the pan-african parliament
<willvdl> so any real techy stuff will get lost
<willvdl> but the conference is on a legal informatics framework so they are somewhat tech-savvy
<popey> well if there are specific apps they use - maybe windows ones you would like to run under wine?
<popey> or maybe show off some linux equiv of a windows app they use, let me know
<willvdl> linux equiv is good
<popey> yeah, preferable
<willvdl> don't like the wine idea, too confusing
<popey> but you always get someone ask for an app that doesn't work
<popey> well, I have actually already made one about wine
<popey> shows how to get a wine app working
<willvdl> true but wine causes headaches
<popey> no command lines in sight :)
<popey> true
<willvdl> and loss of motor-function
<willvdl> but I do find it helps me ride a bicycle better
<popey> well, the offer is there, let me know if you want something specific demoe
<popey> +d
<willvdl> excellent. going to go through screencasts and see
<willvdl> so the mpeg2 files are best quality
<willvdl> and the oggs?
<popey> yes
<popey> ogg isn't far behind the mpeg2 in terms of quality
<popey> and you get the bonus that you're playing using a free codec :)
<willvdl> exactly
<popey> if you run the ogg full screen at more than about 6 inches away I doubt anyone would notice
<popey> unless you are projecting this on a wall in which case 6 inches probably isn't a good viewing distance :)
<willvdl> probably going to put them on some kind of big screen
<willvdl> not projecting but somewhere between 21" and 72"
<willvdl> popey, thinking about tuts: key apps that get showcased are usually: email, browser, office
<willvdl> the others that people love to see are: photos, music and IM/VOIP
<nixternal> some odd reason, my flashplugin was nixed
<willvdl> plugged out so to speak?
<nixternal> hehe ya
<willvdl> been waiting years to use that one
<willvdl> finally I die contented
<willvdl> can die rather
<nixternal> lol
<nixternal> i need a maid
<nixternal> my dog has trashed my wood floors, and im to into writing up the Herd 2 release notes for Kubuntu :)
<willvdl> urg, trying to play one of the screencast oggs but I only get sound but no video
<mdke> my media players crash on them
<theCore> hi LaserJock
<theCore> LaserJock: I did some changes to http://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuPackagingGuide
<LaserJock> hi theCore
<LaserJock> sorry I haven't been able to finish that
<LaserJock> I've been to the dentist
<theCore> hehe, excuses accepted :P
<mdke> clearly a lie
* mdke peers into LaserJock's mouth
<LaserJock> mhm
<LaserJock> you'd see a fresh temporary for a new crown
<mdke> yeah, nice
<LaserJock> this is my 5th crown in a year
<LaserJock> that's what I get for not going to the dentist for 5 years
<mdke> heh
<mdke> it evens out in the end
<LaserJock> still got one to go
<LaserJock> and a bunch of fillings
<LaserJock> and the uni doesn't provide dental insurance so it's rather expensive
<LaserJock> theCore: I like your changes
<theCore> LaserJock: thanks
<LaserJock> theCore: I'm going to go mess it up a bit
<LaserJock> but I like it
<popey> willvdl: those are all on the to-do list, should have them done before march :)
<willvdl> excellent!
<willvdl> mdke ping
<theCore> LaserJock: that is just an outline, the real work is doing those changes
<theCore> LaserJock: hopefully, I will have some time to do them
<mdke> willvdl: cheeky escape of my ping response
<willvdl> better than nixternal's pingedy pong pong
<willvdl> Just been thinking around low-bandwidth countries
<willvdl> could we somehow add functionality to h.u.c to easily download the howto's in one foul swoop?
<LaserJock> theCore: yeah
<mdke> willvdl: we could do it with the wiki. As for the other part, it's shipped with the system already
<mdke> willvdl: it would be *very* big though
<willvdl> how big is very?
<willvdl> it's all text...
<willvdl> I mean the /community docs specifically
<mdke> hmm. Dunno how big actually
<mdke> we could try
<mdke> we used to do it for the italian wiki, before it broke
<mdke> http://help.ubuntu-it.org/wiki/ubuntu-it-wiki.tar
<mdke> that's only about 1.1mb
<willvdl> hmmm. could be extremely useful for some of the places I work with...
<willvdl> like a good old wikipedia snapshot - h.u.c/community snapshot
<mdke> ok, I'll investigate further
<willvdl> thanks
<mdke> can you code?
<willvdl> used to code a lot but I got better
<mdke> :)
<mdke> I recollect the tool being a bit dodgy, I'll call on you if I can't understand something :)
<willvdl> never really delved much into web-apps though. mainly embedded stuff and protocols
<mdke> bbl
<mpt> mdke, *delayed hugs*
<mdke> :)
<mdke> mpt: you'll probably like PageHits too
<tristanbob> is there a documentation template for the wiki?
<mdke> tristanbob: yes
<tristanbob> I am creating a new page and I see many templates... nothing that jumps out at me
<mdke> are you on the correct wiki?
<tristanbob> not sure - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/
<mdke> no :)
<mdke> that's the developers wiki. The documentation wiki is here: https://help.ubuntu.com/community (you should move any documentation you've created on the developers wiki there)
<tristanbob> I am not clear on the two wikis - I thought one was development (wiki) and help.ubuntu.com was production
<tristanbob> what is the purpose of wiki.ubuntu.com vs help.ubuntu.com?  (link?)
<mdke> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BetterWikiDocs
<tristanbob> thanks - I will read
<mdke> :)
<mdke> anyhow, the template is named DocumentationTemplate
<mdke> try https://help.ubuntu.com/community/MyNewPage
<tristanbob> thanks, I was just wondering how to create that
<mdke> on the left
<tristanbob> normally I do it from my wiki page
<mdke> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/WikiGuide/PageCreation
<mdke> I'm bombarding you with links this evening :)
<mdke> good stuff in WikiGuide, check it out
<tristanbob> will do
<tristanbob> how about a good title (I'm sure that is in the reading but...)
<tristanbob> MountingNovellNetworkDrives
<mdke> sounds fine; yeah, some basic tips on the PageCreation page
<mdke> nothing very far away from common sense though
<tristanbob> great.  Thanks for your time, mdke
<mdke> np
<mdke> tristanbob: congrats on your membership
<tristanbob> thanks - it is not official yet (waiting for Mako)
<mdke> oh yeah. Sure that won't be a problem
<tristanbob> if I may ask a non-doc question:  should I tell users to mount network drives to /mnt ? is that the right place?
* mdke shrugs, no technical knowledge here!
<tristanbob> :) heheh, well it is a wiki and not written in stone
<mdke> yep. I think that it's appropriate, myself, but I'm not an expert
<mdke> removable drives go to /media, but network drives seem different to me
<mdke> there will be some spec on it somewhere
<tristanbob> mdke: should I be on the ubuntu-doc team if I only make infrequent wiki entries?
<mdke> tristanbob: wikiteam is available for your joining pleasure if you are going to stick around a bit
<mdke> ubuntu-doc is just for our repository really
#ubuntu-doc 2007-01-12
<tristanbob> I'll always be around with Ubuntu - and documentation is one of the ways that I can contribute
<tristanbob> that and advocacy
<mdke> go for it!
<mdke> feel free to dive into our repository too :)
<tristanbob> mdke: I can't seem to join the wiki team myself
<mdke> you can apply
<tristanbob> looks like I was a member and then left, now I don't get the option to apply again
<mdke> tristanbob: really?
<mdke> ok, reactivated
<tristanbob> thanks mdke
<robotgee1> nixternal: sorry, i havent been able to do any work on the kubuntu docs
<nixternal> that's alright, I have been working little by little, but I have been tied up with some KDE Docs and KHelpCenter
<robotgeek> nixternal: work + school is leaving me no time at all, i think i should officially take a hiatus
<nixternal> hehe
<nixternal> i hear you there
<nixternal> school starts back up next week
<nixternal> 20 credits, so i will be pretty busy as well
<robotgeek> i only have 9, but i got to study (an almost entirely new area) for me, so that is a time sucker
<robotgeek> i had lots of time when i was doing research, lol
<nixternal> ya, i have anthropology and philosophy this semester and both of them are new to me as well
<nixternal> ya, most of my classes are research and field based this time around
<nixternal> those will be fairly easy, since i use some of the stuff i do here as field based
<robotgeek> i dont want to leave the teams, but i dont want to give the impression that i will get anything done
<nixternal> well, jsgotangco is on a hiatus now, and checks in every now and then
<nixternal> mgalvin took a little break, it happens, everyone needs a break every now and then
<nixternal> everytime i start to burn out a little bit i get involved with something new to respark my interest
<robotgeek> yeah, i will keep checking back in, hopefully i will start back work during summer
<robotgeek> i already spend > 14 hours in front of the computer, it doesn't feel very nice to work after that :P
<nixternal> hehe, i definitely know that feeling
<crimsun> now imagine what I go through.
<nixternal> no doubt, you spend 26 hours a day on the computer
<crimsun> closer to 76, it feels like
<robotgeek> i am a mere mortal, crimsun :)
<crimsun> robotgeek: I'm not even a mortal; I'm a peon.
<robotgeek> anyways, i gotta run. maybe catch some extra sleep for tomorrow
<robotgeek> later guys!
<crimsun> cya
<nixternal> later
* mpt drowns mdke in typographical jargon
<glatzor> ping mdke
<glatzor> mdke: do you know when there will be a new version of the translated edgy documentation?
<willvdl> hi folks, https://help.ubuntu.com/community/ThinClients refers ti EdubuntuInstallNotes which is blank..
<mdke> glatzor: none planned atm. You think it would be advisable?
<glatzor> mdke: for sure. it was quite an effort to translate the desktop guide.
<glatzor> mdke: and the end of edgy comes nearer every day.
<mdke> glatzor: well, not the "end" :) But sure, we'll consider it then
<mdke> glatzor: do you know if all those errors were fixed?
<glatzor> mdke: wait, I will check it.
<mdke> I don't know if we should update it on a per-language basis, or for all languages
<glatzor> mdke: are there any other languages that made good progress?
<glatzor> you could drop a mail to ubuntu.translators which teams would like to see a release
<glatzor> mdke: the bugs don't affect the desktop guide. and I am sorry, but I don't have the patience to fix typos at the moment.
<mdke> glatzor: I meant the validation errors...
<glatzor> mdke: I could do this at Sunday.
<glatzor> mdke: http://files.glatzor.de/dg/desktopguide/de/
<mdke> that sounds like a yes
<glatzor> I haven't build it in the last three weeks or so.
<glatzor> But we only fixed minor typos in this phase.
<mdke> glatzor: ok, good job
<mdke> nixternal: our policy until now has been to avoid using xrefflags
<nixternal> why is that?
<nixternal> they work great for linking w/o getting the 'the section blah blah'
<nixternal> mdke: do you recommend using <link linkend='blah'>Blah</link> isntead?
<mdke> nixternal: you should use xref, I think
<mdke> what's wrong with "the section"?
<nixternal> i don't want the words "the section" for some of the links im doing
<mdke> nixternal: why?
<nixternal> because im using htem in a list, to link to another section w/in the document
<nixternal> they are fine when using the "See <xref linkend="blah"/>"
<mpt> nixternal, actually, I don't think "the section" is ever appropriate
<mpt> so maybe report a bug asking for it to be removed
<nixternal> i have no problem rewording the document though to make them work in order to follow along with the policy though
<mdke> mpt: in Kubuntu, he can remove it himself
<mpt> cool
<mdke> in the build stage
<mdke> nixternal: tbh, I can't remember the reason that we decided to avoid them. I bet there was a really good one though
<mdke> we never take wrong decisions
<mdke> >_>
<mdke> <+<
<nixternal> hehe
<nixternal> lol
<mpt> We just take circuitous routes to victory
<LaserJock> that's right
<nixternal> couldn't have said it better myself
<nixternal> i will go through and doctor them up, there is a still a "TON" of work to do in that section
<nixternal> i scoured the forums (Ubuntu & Kubuntu), the wiki, and used strigi on my lists to come up with an entire list of questions
<LaserJock> I dislike those "the section" things
<LaserJock> I'd rather use my own wording
<nixternal> same here LaserJock
<nixternal> anybody want to take a couple of sections of the Kubuntu TBH :)
<LaserJock> TBH?
<mdke> nixternal: i will look through the archive because I'm curious now
<mdke> LaserJock: can you remember?
<mdke> LaserJock: iirc, it was in relation to the packaging guide that it came up
<LaserJock> which topic?
<mdke> LaserJock: xreflabels v. no xreflabels
<LaserJock> why we went to xrefs instead of linend or something
<LaserJock> oh, well it was because of translatablility
<mdke> OH YEAH!
<LaserJock> because the labels are in the tag
<mdke> I KNEW IT!
<mdke> always a good reason
<mdke> LaserJock: you're a genius, nice one
<LaserJock> but I'd rather it default to putting no lanuguage in
<LaserJock> heh, I'm surprised my brain coughed that one up ;-)
<LaserJock> now where did my pen go ...
<mdke> the absent minded genius...
<LaserJock> yeah
<LaserJock> I got the absent minded professor thing down really well
<LaserJock> Quantum Mechanics is ok, it's just remembing how to add that gets me some times ;-)
<mdke> mpt: I took your name in vain on bug 77033, by the way
<Ubug2> Malone bug 77033 in gnome-panel "Remove "Online Documentation" from System/Help menu" [Wishlist,Unconfirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/77033
<mdke> we need to get cracking on integrating material from the book so that we can get that other superfluous menu entry removed
<nixternal> who wants to come to chicago in april and give a talk along side Chris Dibona at Flourish? (an OSS event)
* mdke puts his hand up
<nixternal> well then, come on down ;)
<mdke> I wish :(
<nixternal> Ubuntu Chicago is going to have a booth, and they want me (or somebody) to give a talk about Feisty and the future
* nixternal prefers the (or somebody)
<mdke> invite sabdfl
<nixternal> heh, i will CC him in an email to spark interest
<nixternal> i mean, Chris Dibona, we need someone BIG
* mpt goes on a gain-weight-fast diet
<mdke> what's a good subdomain for webmail? mail and webmail are ruled out
<mdke> I was thinking maybe postbox
<nixternal> loveletters.mdke.org
<dsas> presuming the other subdomains are in use by others and won't get confused, what's wrong with "email"  ?
<mdke> dsas: yes, maybe that's the way forward
<dsas> mailbox could also be good.
<mdke> mailboxes is used, maybe mailbox is free
<mpt> mdke, btw, "System Documentation" is a load of syllables, I'd much prefer "Ubuntu Help"
<mdke> mpt: that repeats the higher menu title... "Documentation" is what I'd suggest
<mdke> it contrasts nicely with Community/Commercial support
<mdke> mpt: by the way sabdfl has posted again :(
<nixternal> im not getting wiki messages anymore, something is broke (wiki edit messages)
<nixternal> i take that back, further research indicates that gmail has began marking Wiki messages and ubuntu-marketing-owner messages as SPAM
<nixternal> nice
<dsas> nixternal: They've made their spam filter more aggressive this week apparently
<nixternal> obviously
<nixternal> they have a lot of "Ubuntu" email in there
<mpt> mdke, yes, but using jargon synonyms isn't really better than repetition :-P
<mdke> mpt: the problem with help is that it isn't distinguished with the other entries in the menu, that's *why* it's the title of the menu
<mpt> "System Documentation" isn't distinguished either
<mpt> at least, not in a way that anyone would understand.
<mpt> (And yes, this is a symptom of the problem of trying to explain the various types of help in something as small as a menu.)
<mdke> mpt: I suggested "Documentation"
<mpt> Nobody wants documentation.
<mpt> ok, I should clarify that
<mdke> hell, I'd be in favour of abolishing the help menu too and including links on the front page, but can you please convince Mark?
<mpt> No non-geeks want documentation
<mdke> are you good at leaning on Mark?
<mpt> mdke, I think the most likely way of doing that is forcing him to watch people try to use it. I don't think that will happen soon, though.
<mdke> :(
<mdke> what I'd like is if the docteam got trusted on things like the help menu
<mdke> but he seems pretty resistant
<mdke> I'll go round his house with some heavies
<mpt> uhhhh
<mpt> Never mind the heavies
<mdke> he has bodyguards?
<mpt> You live in the same city, why not call him up and ask if you can meet face-to-face?
<mdke> ah, that's a serious suggestion
<mdke> good plan
<mpt> I really need to go out now, but I'll e-mail you later
<mdke> mpt: :)
#ubuntu-doc 2007-01-13
<somerville32> mdke: Typo in http://fridge.ubuntu.com/files/herd2release.txt
<somerville32> mdke:   http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/xubuntu/releases/feisty/herd-2/ (Edubuntu) ->   http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/xubuntu/releases/feisty/herd-2/ (Xubuntu)
<crimsun> nice! They always did want to run Xfce anyhoo
<somerville32> hehe
<mdke> dammit, can't login to Gnome
<mdke> somerville32: it's a conspiracy by nixternal
<somerville32> mdke: hehe
<mdke> somerville32: I can't find that typo. Maybe someone fixed it (but I can't find a record of someone fixing it either)
<somerville32> Look harder :P
<somerville32>   http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/releases/feisty/herd-2/ (Ubuntu)
<somerville32>   http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/kubuntu/releases/feisty/herd-2/ (Kubuntu)
<somerville32>   http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/edubuntu/releases/feisty/herd-2/ (Edubuntu)
<somerville32>   http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/xubuntu/releases/feisty/herd-2/ (Edubuntu)
<somerville32> in http://fridge.ubuntu.com/files/herd2release.txt
<mdke> oh yeah
<mdke> it's a typo in the release announcement itself
<mdke> ok, fixed, good spot
<somerville32> page not found
<mdke> try again
<mdke> works for me
<mdke> somerville32: is there a brown theme for xubuntu?
<somerville32> mdke: You can use gnome themes in Xubuntu, I believe
<somerville32> http://fridge.ubuntu.com/files/herd2release.txt <-- no workie
<mdke> somerville32: it works here
<mdke> somerville32: and yay, brown
<mdke> hi there jsgotangco
<jsgotangco> hi!
<jsgotangco> hows it going mdke?
<mdke> jsgotangco: well, you?
<jsgotangco> not bad preparing for a trip
<crimsun> it's an mdke bug flewd!
<mdke> crimsun: I filed 2 bugs! is that a flewd?
<crimsun> nope, I just wanted to use "flewd"
<mdke> fair enough
* mdke goes off to find a dictionary
<jsgotangco> its a word???
<crimsun> it's some strange enunciation of "flood", and I've never actually heard anyone enunciate it that way
<crimsun> OTOH, people seem to use it on irc a lot
<jsgotangco> must be fancied like pwned of sorts
<crimsun> seems so
<mdke> morning mpt
<mpt> morning morning morning
<mdke> hmm. somerville32, where's the file manager? I need to view my home directory?
<mpt> mdke, just mailed you
<mdke> \o/
<mpt> (belatedly)
<mdke> you rock
<mdke> that's really helpful, thx
<mdke> can't believe that to view my home directory in xubuntu I had to create a new folder on the desktop and open it.
<mpt> no Places menu?
<mdke> no, there is only an Applications menu
* mdke flews crimsun 
<mpt> flews?
<mpt> flays?
<mdke> mpt: http://pastebin.ca/315116
<mpt> oh.
<mpt> So I was the post-punchline.
* mdke hugs mpt 
<somerville32> Thunar. Fix Commited :P
<mdke> somerville32: I'm quite comfy with xubuntu here. Not bad at all
* somerville32 nods :)
<mdke> creating panel launchers is a total PITA, but still
<mdke> the occasional thing lags behind Gnome, especially things like that and selecting icons, backgrounds etc. But it's good!
<somerville32> Did you try the built-in compositor yet?
<mdke> no?
<mdke> i'll try ot
<somerville32> cool
<mdke> by the way, separate settings dialogues for "Window Manager" and "Window Manager Tweaks"??
<somerville32> hehe
<somerville32> Silly xfce4 developers
<mdke> ooh, that's cool
<somerville32> me has to go. Have fun :)
<nixternal> somerville32: fixed the typo in the herd2release.txt file that mysteriously disappeared
<nixternal> oi jsgotangco
<jsgotangco> nixternal: hey there dude
<mdke> nixternal: ?? I already fixed it
<mdke> what happened?
<nixternal> mdke: dunno
<nixternal> someone came into the fridge saying the link was broke
<mdke> nixternal: weird. It was working fine for me
<nixternal> so i copied the release and created the text file again, and reuploaded it with somerville32's fix
<nixternal> no telling, it is working now, but in and hour or so who knows :)
<mdke> hmm
* somerville32 always said it was broke. :P
<mdke> strange that it worked for me, even though I refreshed
<mdke> maybe my isp was caching it or something
<mdke> heya Burgundavia
<Burgundavia> hey mdke
<Burgundavia> life is crazy
<mdke> Burgundavia: hmm?
<Burgundavia> work is busy. I am a few days at the main office in Calgary
<mdke> you're going back and forth?
<Burgundavia> no, not really
<Burgundavia> just here for a few days
<mdke> popey: I've prepared a short fridge article about the screencasts, lemme know if I can put it up for review/publishing
<popey> yeah, where would you put it?
<popey> email?
<mdke> popey: ah, yes I can email it to you if you want
<popey> or somewhere else? don't mind
<mdke> I was thinking more "is everything ready for us to start trying to attract members?"
<popey> the how-to still has gaps
<mdke> think we should wait, or fill it in as we go along?
<mdke> (emailed)
<popey> go
<popey> it's already appeared on the ubuntu planet as you know
<mdke> yup
<popey> announcement looks good
<mdke> okay
<popey> wanna make my name a link to my lp page or wiki page?
<mdke> whichever your prefer
<popey> so people know how to get hold of me
<mdke> ok, lp
<popey> lp
<mdke> popey: ok, done
<popey> what happens now? it goes for approval?
<mdke> yeah
<mdke> some refrigerator such as nixternal will look at it
<popey> hehe
<mdke> heya linuxphotogeek
<popey> mdke: how would you think we should best articulate what we actually want out of the people who are going to flood to our project ? :)
<popey> I have some wishlist items I would like
<mdke> popey: it should be clear from the wiki page, ideally
<popey> ok, should we have a help required section or something?
<popey> what should we call it?
<mdke> what sort of things are you thinking of?
<popey> well, I would like someone to remake the titles pages
<popey> and someone to think of a better way to do some of the bits I am writing up on the how-to page
<popey> to streamline it
<mdke> ok, HelpRequired or something, I guess
<popey> ahh, a separate page?
<popey> yeah, good idea
<mdke> or a section, don't mind
#ubuntu-doc 2007-01-14
<mdke> popey: awake?
<popey> yus
<mdke> popey: is it ok if we open up the LP team for anyone to join, and have the people who can approve videos as "administrators"? I feel it would encourage more contributors, and it will give us an idea of who wants to get involved
<popey> ok
<mdke> cool
<mdke> linuxphotogeek has expressed an interest :)
<popey> :)
<somerville32> :)
<mdke> (and pointed out that I got the team page url wrong in my email, ugh)
<popey> email or blog post?
<mdke> everything :) I've fixed blog post/fridge/forum
<mdke> obviously, emails can't be fixed
<linuxphotogeek> mdke: can't a link or forward be made from the screencasts... to screencast...
<linuxphotogeek> all would be will then
<mdke> linuxphotogeek: genius
<popey> what did you have in your mail?
<popey>  /screencast ?
<mdke> ScreencastsTeam
<popey> ahh
<mdke> I've done the redirect
<mdke> thanks linuxphotogeek
<popey> you only linked to the top page?
<popey> not the sub pages?
<mdke> yes
* linuxphotogeek joined screencast team
<somerville32> Yea! :)
<popey> \o/
<popey> do we need an emblem?
<popey> well "need" :)
<mdke> yes
<mdke> any ideas?
<popey> I am an artistic void
<popey> however..
<popey> we need to encapsulate education, video, screens, recording.. in 16x16 yes? :)
<somerville32> mdke: Since Dapper is long term, should docs.ubuntu.com list documentation for 6.06 as well?
<dsas> somerville32: it's on help.ubuntu.com
<somerville32> sorry
<somerville32> help.ubuntu.com
<somerville32> and not on the front page
<somerville32> Oh doh
* somerville32 is stupid
<somerville32> Tabs
<dsas> heh
<somerville32> Maybe it would be good to make some sort of note?
<somerville32> lol
<somerville32> "Looking for Ubuntu 6.06 Documentation? Click here." or w/e
<mdke> somerville32: it's right there!
<mdke> plus, there's a link from the system menu in Dapper
<somerville32> Well, I have been to the site a billion times
<somerville32> and have never had an issue finding the tab
<somerville32> lol
<popey> mdke: for some reason an icon of a speed camera appeals, however inappropriate
<popey> you know, the road sign
<mdke> popey: sure
<somerville32> So wheres this new launchpad group?
<mdke> somerville32: linked on the wiki page?
<popey> https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-screencasts
<dsas> wow, that's quite a long list of future projects.
<somerville32> Can I make the little icon?
<popey> please do
* somerville32 ponders what to use.
<somerville32> What object would best symbolize screencasts?
<popey> a video camer is the literal answer
<mdke> 01:05:15 < popey> mdke: for some reason an icon of a speed camera appeals, however inappropriate
<somerville32> Yeah but that would be better for the Ubuntu Video Team
<popey> http://images.google.co.uk/images?hl=en&q=speed+camera&btnG=Search+Images  for example
<crimsun> e.g., see gnome's 'Take Screenshot' icon.
<mdke> ARGH!
<mdke> Gnome has got a sane preferences tool
<mdke> that's totally awesome
* mdke drools
<linuxphotogeek> popey: good thing mdke made the wiki redirect as you have the ScreencastsTeam in your planet blog entry
<somerville32> Can you make me an admin so can I try out a few different ones?
<somerville32> You can never tell if they look good unless you try them
<linuxphotogeek> maybe it should have been Screencasts
<popey> balls
<popey> edited
<mdke> somerville32: we're keeping the admins thing for people who can approve screencasts, at the moment I'll leave it to popey to determine who those people are, he has exacting standards about screencasts
<somerville32> mdke: I'm just looking for temporary status at the moment
<mdke> ah
<mdke> ok
<somerville32> Are Xubuntu screencasts going to have to be approved through popey as well?
<mdke> somerville32: screencasts which are part of that project, yeah.
<mdke> popey: I can't make administrators
<mdke> somerville32: or the other (future) project admins
<popey> should I then>
<mdke> pls
<popey> done
<somerville32> Ok
<somerville32> Uploaded option #1
<popey> xnest icon?
<popey> holy crap, it's hit the fridge
<mdke> popey: that was what I sent you by email?
<popey> yeah
<popey> just a little scary that's all
<mdke> somerville32: that doesn't look like anything
<popey> :)
<mdke> somerville32: how about the gnome-screenshot icon? or similar?
<somerville32> lol
<somerville32> lol
* somerville32 tries something else.
<somerville32> What about gnome-eog.xpm?
<popey> the eye with the hat?
<mdke> ??
<somerville32> lol, yeah! :)
* mdke bets that somerville32 has been smoking something today
<somerville32> Oh!!
<somerville32> Kino!
<popey> it's a shame the xvidcap icon is so awful
<popey> given that's the app I use to make the screencasts!
<somerville32> :(
<somerville32> Oops!
* somerville32 smacks launchpad with a stick repeatedly.
<Madpilot> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Kypir?action=AttachFile
<Madpilot> that clown needs banning...
<LaserJock> is he realy attaching porn?
<david_corrales> links
<Madpilot> looks like links
<Madpilot> some attempt at link farming
<Burgundavia_> been showing up a bunch recently
<david_corrales> wtf is with human spammers
<david_corrales> sigh
<david_corrales> our forums are getting hit them also
<Burgundavia_> it might be automated
<david_corrales> for the forums, it needs authentication to create an account
<Burgundavia_> wiki requires LP
<Madpilot> here's our idiot, I think: https://launchpad.net/~tuckeett
<tonyyarusso> ...
* tonyyarusso is mildly astonished
<Madpilot> mdke, ping - see above about the spam - I deleted the page, but someone is going to have to delete the idiot's account on wiki/LP too
<Madpilot> need sleep - night all
<popey> morning
<popey> mdke: http://digg.com/linux_unix/Official_Ubuntu_screencasting_team_launched digg! :)
<popey> and anyone else of course ;)
<mdke> cool
* OrkanSpec Hi all. I would like to translate parts of Kubuntu Desktop Guide (6.10) into Polish. I found such a document (https://help.ubuntu.com/6.10/kubuntu/desktopguide/pl/), but it seems that only half is translated. Is it possible to translate it? It is not a community documentation... I would be grateful for any tips.
<mdke> OrkanSpec: yes, it's translated in Rosetta, the Ubuntu translation web portal
* OrkanSpec thanks for info, I am going to check it. Bye
<mdke> OrkanSpec: I'll give you the link
* OrkanSpec ok
<mdke> OrkanSpec: https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/edgy/+source/kubuntu-docs/+pots/desktopguide (it's nearly finished now)
* OrkanSpec thanx. Bye.
<mdke> popey: a request! It's a touch sparse though :(
<n1c0las> mdke: I just checked the Screencast Wiki. Is it OK to create some pages as reference on the Wiki by Alan?
<n1c0las> Pages such as introduction to the Ubuntu Desktop
<mdke> n1c0las: you mean requests?
<n1c0las> Yes: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ScreencastTeam/Requests
<mdke> just follow the guide at the bottom of the page
<mdke> oh, you mean for one which already exists?
<n1c0las> Yep
<n1c0las> e.g. https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ScreencastTeam/Requests/AnIntroductionToTheUbuntuDesktop
<n1c0las> THis page does not yet exist
<mdke> n1c0las: I think you should ask popey whether he already has a specification for it, which maybe he hasn't added yet
<n1c0las> I could create it and set up a user story
* mdke nods
<n1c0las> popey, ping - would it be OK to setup the page https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ScreencastTeam/Requests/AnIntroductionToTheUbuntuDesktop
<jenda> guys - who is in charge of the screencasts?
<jenda> popey?
<jenda> I'd just like to point at ubuntuvideo.com - try to cooperate, not split efforts :)
<mdke> jenda: uh, yeah, we're aware of ubuntuvideo.com, but 1. it doesn't host screencasts, it simply collects videos from the web (without any attempt at quality control), so a wholly different project; and 2. it's seriously unmaintained, last time we checked.
<mdke> jenda: more relevant is ubuntuclips.org
<jenda> ooh
<popey> moo
<jenda> mdke: 1) ok, good - just wanted to make sure you're aware, and you're right - it's a one man show, and that's rarely good, especially since he's really busy.
<jenda> 2) didn't know that one. /me bangs head.
<popey> on a pda
<jenda> hey popey
<mdke> popey: did you email the ubuntuclips guy?
<popey> i am happy for anyone to edit /update requests
<n1c0las> popey, thanks
<mdke> popey: so all the specifications from your personal wiki have been transferred?
<popey> i have only made a start on the ones i have my name on
<mdke> so it's up to date
<mdke> cool
<popey> not yet
<n1c0las> I presume you want a regular page structure such as https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ScreencastTeam/Requests/RunningDOSandWindowsPrograms
<popey> will do
<mdke> n1c0las: use the template (on the left)
<popey> yas n1c0las
<n1c0las> mdke: on the left?
<popey> am at in-laws for lvnch
<n1c0las> mdke: I see what you
<n1c0las> mean
<mdke> n1c0las: when you go to https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ScreencastTeam/Requests/AnIntroductionToTheUbuntuDesktop you see a relevant template on the left
<n1c0las> :)
<popey> mdke shall i make a standards page?
<n1c0las> <-- not used to MoinMoin
<mdke> popey: what do you mean?
<popey> recommendatlons
<n1c0las> popey: more like an entry in the FAQ,I think
<popey> guidelines
<popey> ok
<popey> after lunch will do
<popey> need to keep in-laws happy
<mdke> cya
<popey> glad i bought them a WAP
<n1c0las> bye
<popey> ttfn
<mdke> n1c0las: I've clarified the point you raised on the page
<n1c0las> thanks
<jenda> mmm... ubuntuclips looks like a very well maintained and run site.
<n1c0las> mdke: However there are many templates to choose from. Which one should i use for the screencast page?
<mdke> n1c0las: the Screencast Team Request Template, of course :)
<mdke> n1c0las: feel free to join the launchpad team too
<mdke> jenda: yeah, it's good
* jenda smiles at the how to install easyubuntu clip :)
<jenda> mdke: BTW, thanks for the doc.ubuntu.com/~marketing hosting - we're now working on a site to go with it, which would categorise and link to the files stored there. Here's a preview: diy.devubuntu.com
<mdke> jenda: yes, I've seen that. The wiki wasn't good enough?
<jenda> Nope, not really.
<jenda> Just as it's not good enough for www.ubuntu.com
<mdke> site looks good. Still, the wiki would have been better, more easily shared with other teams like locoteams
<jenda> that's a point, indeed.
<mdke> jenda: www.ubuntu.com is for the public, that site is a team thing, afaics
<mdke> anyway, looks nice
<mdke> you should probably plan to include your doc.ubuntu.com/~marketing stuff in that site
<mdke> I don't know if it will continue to be available indefinitely
<jenda> The new user is just as probable to want to get an ubuntu sticker or create a poster as anyone within the marketing or doc teams - or more.
<jenda> So, it's for the public.
<jenda> OK, that should'nt be a problem.
<jenda> I'll prod MitchM about that :)
<jenda> or, if the site gets finished first - Canonical.
<n1c0las> popey: I created the first version of the Introduction page
<n1c0las> mdke: I just added my name to the Launchpad screencast team
<mdke> good man
<popey> afternoon all
<nixternal> noon, morning, it's all the same :)
<popey> :)
* popey wonders why his home server (popey.com) is getting a pasting
<dsas> someone else discovered joke.popey.com?
<popey> heh
<popey> that's hosted elsewhere thankfully! :)
<mdke> home server eh?
<mdke> must be your blog post
<popey> i keep meaning to move it to my host in telehouse
<popey> silly me
<mdke> no one do anything to the serverguide for the moment, plskthx
<popey> mdke: should we have a mailing list 'at some point' or keep it to -doc
<popey> i am having conversations all over the place
<popey> repeating myself
<popey> would be nice to centralise those conversations
<mdke> popey: I was hoping it would be kept to -doc so that the coordination between documentation and screencasts can be close. Do you think a separate ML would help?
<popey> possibly
<mdke> hmm
<popey> hmm indeed
<mdke> popey: let's reevaluate after some time has passed, maybe try adding stuff to the faq for now if you are seeing common questions come up
<popey> agreed
<popey> glad we removed flash from the front page
<mdke> yeah?
<popey> was getting tired of answering that one ;)
<dsas> Would the screencasts being in the repos be useful I wonder? I assume they're too big for the cd...
<popey> thought that
<popey> just the oggs
<popey> have meta packages for categories
<popey> and one for everything
<dsas> maybe the docs could then have "to see a demonstration of how to do X; install ubuntu-screencasts and watch /usr/share/data/DoingX
<popey> each could be in own package
<dsas> or better yet, just launch totem with the file
<popey> nobody would want to download them all to watch one
<dsas> hmm, true.
<dsas> I'd imagine the packaging would be easy enough for them anyway.
<popey> yes
<popey> need more made to make it worhwhile imo
<popey> arguably
<mdke> we can have links to the individual screencasts for downloading though, if all else fails
<popey> yes
<popey> one thing i may do is crate separate entries on the site to make rss enclosures work
<popey> that way you could subscribe in a podcast client
<popey> get videos delivered auomagically
<popey> will play later
<mdke> cool
<popey> prob will occur when we move domains
<popey> clients will redownload
<popey> wont make it live until then
<mdke> yah
<popey> assuming we get s.u.c
<popey> likelyhood?
<mdke> strong
<popey> cool
<popey> will bear in mind
* mdke crosses fingers
<mdke> bdmurray:
<mdke> bdmurray: (sorry, wrong button)
<Zach> Anyone from the screencast team here?
<dsas> popey: ^^
<Zach> is that Alan pope?
<dsas> Zach: Yep
<Zach> kk
<dsas> Zach: What is it you want to know? I've been hovering around a little and may be able to help.
<Zach> i was just wondering if i could help with the Intro GFX
<Zach> and create a Uniform intro
<Zach> for all of the new Ubuntu Screencastsa
<Zach> But, i dont run linux right now, because well... The adobe support is less than nill...
<dsas> cool, I guess popey is the person to talk about with that. If he's not around and you run out of time you could always drop a mail to the list.
<Zach> Yea i dont think he is here, i sent him a pm just a second ago
<popey> moo
<popey> Zach: a uniform intro would be fantastic!
<popey> I really want/need that :)
<popey> at the moment I just have an openoffice.org presentation file that I video for the start and end of the screencast
<Zach> hmm
<Zach> could you link me to the open office intro
<Zach> maybe i could get some ideas
<popey> ok
<popey> http://doc.ubuntu.com/screencasts/videos/ubuntu-uk-titles.odp
<popey> holy crud, the digg post has gone from 20 to 276 diggs
<popey> and has hit the front page!
* dsas pities popeys server
<popey> not me :)
<popey> it doesn't link to me
* popey pitys mdkes server
<Zach> yo
<Zach> popey
<popey> yo
<popey> Cpu(s): 14.3% us,  1.7% sy,  0.0% ni,  0.0% id, 83.1% wa,  0.3% hi,  0.6% si
<popey> arf
<popey> digg in effect
<Zach> so do you hvae generric made
<Zach> for the intro
<Zach> bah i cant type on this computer, it was made before i was born :-/
<Zach> Do you have a Generic intro video made for the screencasts yet?
<Zach> Popey: any ideas for what you want in it
<popey> well
<Zach> obviously the ubuntu logo
<popey> the intro is just at the moment an openoffice presentation:-  http://doc.ubuntu.com/screencasts/videos/ubuntu-uk-titles.odp
<popey> that
<popey> I just video the first slide for 10 seconds for the beginning
<popey> and the second slide for 5 seconds for the end
<popey> that's it
<popey> what are you thinking of?
<Zach> alright - i dont actually have open office installed right now or i would check that out
<Zach> i was just going to play around in adobe after effects and see what i come up with
<popey> ok, go for it :)
<popey> i am just off to bath my daughter, back in 1 hour
<Zach> rgr
<gouki> A support ticket has been submitted because of a spammer on the Wiki. https://answers.launchpad.net/launchpad/+ticket/3175
<tonyyarusso> gouki: It was noticed yesterday.  Not sure what's being done, but I know some folks where discussing it.
<gouki> Ok. I was just making sure... (=
<mdke> erm. I submitted that ticket
<mdke> weird
* popey returns
<tonyyarusso> mdke: why's that weird?
<mdke> tonyyarusso: well, he keeps closing my ticket because "the docteam has assured me that they are discussing it"
<mdke> ah, there he is in pm
<tonyyarusso> heh
<tonyyarusso> that's amusing
<mdke> it seems that there is no way to reply to a support ticket without closing it...
<popey> there is
<popey> follow the first link inthe mail
<mdke> popey: is it "Add information request"?
<popey> what ticket number?
<mdke> popey: it's not specific to a particular number
<mdke> (I think)
<popey> first link i have in my mails from the support tracker merely have a link to the ticket
<mdke> right, but once you get there, and insert a comment, it seems you mark the ticket as "answered" by commenting on it
<popey> someone else answered it?
<popey> not you
<mdke> I filed it, someone else commented on it, and it got closed
<mdke> so I had to reopen it
<popey> when they "commented" they will have had the option to add answer or add info request
<popey> if they add answer then when you come to it you are adding comments
<popey> not answers
<popey> AIUI
* mdke shrugs
<mdke> I get duplicate emails too >_<
<popey> thats a bug in launchpad
<popey> so do i
<popey> mentioned it to kiko(?) the other day
<mdke> ah
<fergus> hey there
<mpt> hey ho
<fergus> really interested in getting involved with the doc. side of things... should i dive straight into the wiki to start off? :)
<mpt> That's an easy way to start, sure :-)
<fergus> can u have a look at something i did today and tell me what you think? :)
<mpt> Take care not to rename or delete pages without taking care of all those pages that link to them
<mpt> and maybe consult the doc mailing list before making major changes
<mpt> but otherwise, any improvements welcome :-)
<fergus> i think i'll start off with adding stuff at first rather than removing things :) that way i cnt mess things up!
<mpt> fair enough
<fergus> still kinda getting to grips with the open nature of everything
<mdke> fergus: check out https://help.ubuntu.com/community/WikiGuide - and welcome aboard
<fergus> thanks :) https://help.ubuntu.com/community/OfficeApplications?highlight=%28OfficeApplications i added the abiword bit today
<fergus> i just followed what was there for the other apps but tbh they could all do with some fleshing out so i might take a look at that later
<mdke> looks good
<fergus> thanks :)
<mdke> hi jjesse
<mdke> jjesse, nixternal: I've included mpt's glossary of windows terms in the Ubuntu version of the Switching from Windows guide - just a heads up, you should be able to convert it for use in kubuntu
<Genius16> hello
<Genius16> im interested in making a contribution to the screencast section of the ubuntu documentation.
<popey> excellent
<popey> welcome
<popey> have you seen our wiki pages?
<Genius16> yeah. im skimming a bit now.
<Genius16> taking a look at the /requests
<popey> cool
<popey> excellent
<popey> if you think of any that you think we might make, by all means add them as per the instructions at the bottom of that page
<Genius16> im an enlightenment guy myself, but on my laptop im using ubuntu with xfce. would you perfer me to create screencasts with gnome and/or kde?
<popey> not at all
<Genius16> im a bit more interested in creating said screen casts, if possible.
<popey> we need xfce people :)
<Genius16> thatd be me. no different than gnome really.
<popey> I only really know gnome, not xfce
<Genius16> its basically the same, uses the gtk libs.
<Genius16> without most of the bulk. though still bulky. check out enlightenment sometime. its great.
<popey> I have seen E17
<popey> It's not my thing :)
<popey> I can see why people like it though
<Genius16> yeah its not some problems. a few bugs. cant wait till it goes into release status
<Genius16> yeah e16 is super stable. when e17 gets that way that will bore a new era of linux desktops
<Genius16> most of the "to allocate" sectioned screen casts i have the knowledge to complete myself.
<Genius16> the ones that need specifications, im fairly sure i could write specs and complete them as well.
<Genius16> but, im not a part of your team so i wouldnt know if it would be correct. nor know where to submit it.
<mdke> Genius16: you are now
<popey> That's great that you feel you have something to offer
<popey> I'd love to see all those specs written
<Genius16> it'll look good on my resume:)
<popey> but equally I would love to punch out a load more screencasts
<Genius16> yeah.
<popey> I just don't have the time to do both, which is where people like you come in :)
<Admiral_Chicago> hello, can someone help me fix some headers on a documentation page?
<mdke> sure
<Admiral_Chicago> mdke: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/GrubHowto/ChangeDefaultOS
<Admiral_Chicago> not sure how to fix it I read the formatting page and I've fixed other wiki heades
<Admiral_Chicago> headers*
<Genius16> pope: im here all night. ill see if i can work on some specs of the non spec'd screen cast ideas. id have to submit them to you (or whoever) in plain text. my html skills died in the days of notepad.
<mdke> Admiral_Chicago: what's the problem?
<mdke> oh, i see
<Admiral_Chicago> the headers are wrong aren't they?
<mdke> you need the same number of = signs on each side. so
<mdke> = First Level Heading =
<mdke> == Second Level Heading ==
<mdke> and so on
<Admiral_Chicago> well finding the line for one.
<mdke> also, don't leave any spaces after the = sign at the end of the line
<mdke> and you should be all set
<Admiral_Chicago> yes I know, but if i do = first level = and such...maybe it's the spacing
<mdke> I can see you've got the wrong number of = signs there
<mdke> = Open in a Text Editor == <--
<Admiral_Chicago> yes, I edited those now, can you take a look at the actual code now
<Admiral_Chicago> code/ wiki formatting whatever its called
<mdke> looks fine now, doesn't it?
<Admiral_Chicago> okay, one more question. Does the wiki show a box with headers only on pages with multiple header levels
<mdke> you mean a table of contents?
<Admiral_Chicago> yes
<mdke> (these are headings by the way, rather than headers)
<mdke> you need to insert the table of contents yourself
<mdke> you can copy the code from another page
<mdke> popey: I've had several pingbacks so far btw, the news is spreading the net
<popey> yeah
<popey> we made the front page of digg
<popey> I told you that i think, sorry
<popey> I repeat myself quite a bit :)
<popey> is there a way to dump out the current scroll buffer in irssi to a file?
<mdke> ah, didn't realise it was the front page
<mdke> no idea about the irssi bit
<popey> hmmm
<Admiral_Chicago> mdke: let me grab a link so i can tell you what i mean
<mdke> Admiral_Chicago: did you see my reply?
<Admiral_Chicago> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MozillaTeam/Bugs/Triage/Responses
<Admiral_Chicago> the last thing I saw was "i can grab the code of another page" before my computer rebooted on it's own.
<mdke> right, that was the answer yeah
<Admiral_Chicago> the Contents was created when I did multiple headings
<Admiral_Chicago> on the /Responses pages.
<mdke>  no, it's created by this code:
<mdke> ||<tablestyle="float:right; font-size: 0.9em; width:40%; background:#F1F1ED; margin: 0 0 1em 1em;" style="padding:0.5em;">'''Contents'''[[BR] ] [[TableOfContents] ] ||
<mdke> (second line)
<Admiral_Chicago> oh right, that is missing from this page
<mdke> you can find out more about Macros like [[TableOfContents] ]  on the HelpOnMacros page
<Admiral_Chicago> okay, I'll look for that page
<Admiral_Chicago> thanks a lot mdke
<mdke> np
<popey> mdke: where did the template go?
<popey> nvm, found it
#ubuntu-doc 2008-01-07
<justin_> hi is this the doc team
<tinman> hello
<tinman> lol
<tinman> let me dcc this to you
<somerville32> dcc what?
<somerville32> justin_, Yes, this is the doc team
<tinman> /usr/share/gnome/help/musicvideophotos/C/musicvidephotos.xml
<tinman> he says he needs that
<tinman> trying ot find a way ot send it :'(
<tinman> somerville32: ? :x
<tinman> i uploaded it to a shell
<justin_> ok how do i get it?
<justin_> cant it just be email?
<tinman> http://tinman.blinkenshell.org/musicvideophotos.xml
<tinman> oh ohh
<justin_> kk i downloaded it im gonna move it to the directory and see if it works
<justin_>  ///usr/share/gnome/help/musicvideophotos/C/musicvideophotos.xml.
<tinman> hmm
<tinman> i also put it in my ftp server
<tinman> which is on my box
<tinman> which is private :'(
<tinman> and unsecure
<justin_> i just tried to put it in that directory only to find out its already there
<tinman> lool
<tinman> that's a good news
<tinman> update you package manager maybe
<justin_> if its there y do i get page nto found
<tinman> ask in #ubuntu, i am not the guy to answer that
<justin_> lol
<justin_> and when i open it directly it gives me a parsing error lol
<tinman> yeah
<tinman> same here
<tinman> i dont think that xml file is important
<justin_> lol
<justin_> i hope not
<tinman> any files in /help/ are only for /help
<tinman> lol
<justin_> lol hey do u know what channel the development team is in
<tinman> hmm
<tinman> ubuntu-dev maybe/
<tinman> but you are better off
<tinman> ansking in #ubuntu
<justin_> ok thnx
<tinman> i dont think #dev people wanna help us new guys, they probably are making new ubuntu or sumthing
<tinman> lol
<mdke> sommer: I don't think there is a simple way, you simply have to substitute the ghelp link with the html link - the script uses sed for that.
<mdke> sommer: but you could try asking one of the gnome docs guys such as shaunm
<mdke> sommer: it's possible that the gnome build system has a way of doing it; maybe ask on the mailing list rather than on irc - their channel is quieter than ours
<sommer> mdke: ya, the issue is finding where the ghelp link is linking to... heh
<sommer> mdke: I'm thinking there's got to be a way to "index" the sect1 with the html path they generate
<sommer> mdke: then replace the ghelp with the appropriate html link
<sommer> mdke: that's a good idea about the gnome guys, surely someone else has tried this :-)
<Legendario> is anyone here from the doc team?
<sommer> sure
<Legendario> i would like to translate the packaging guide to portuguese...
<Legendario> is there a way to do it using the launchpad?
<sommer> Legendario: not sure, the packaging guide has been moved to the wiki: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/PackagingGuide
<sommer> Legendario: I'm not sure how that is translated?
<Legendario> I know it has been moved.
<Legendario> but it is not fully translated
<Legendario> i would like to finish it, but i find the launchpad the best way to do it
<Legendario> can anyone from the doc team set that?
<sommer> Legendario: gotcha... sorry I'm not very familiar with the translation process
<sommer> you might try asking on the mailing list
<Legendario> do you know anyone that can give me this answer?
<Legendario> well.
<sommer> mdke may be able to... may be a while for a replay :)
<Legendario> thanks anyway
<Legendario> do you know if there is many difference between the 6.06 version from the work in progress version
<sommer> Legendario: heh... I'm not 100% sure, still pretty new to Ubuntu myself.
<sommer> Legendario: you can probably find more details in #ubuntu-motu for that question
<Legendario> ok. thanks
<Legendario> thanks dude
<sommer> I wouldn't think there would be that many differences though :-)
<sommer> np
<Legendario> help apreciated
<ubotu> New bug: #181099 in ubuntu-doc "ntd-simple no longer available as package" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/181099
<astabeno> How do I download/view the docs in launchpad?
<sommer> astabeno: this page explains it: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/Repository
<sommer> if you run into problems feel free to ask here
<astabeno> I see thanks, guess that will only be done on my Ubuntu machine
<mdke> sommer: I think it's fairly clear where the ghelp links link to... what's you're issue with that?
<mdke> sommer: in most cases I think it's true to say that a link such as "document#section" should link to document/C/section.html
<mdke> there may be some exceptions I suppose
<astabeno> I am getting everything downloaded now.
<mdke> astabeno: good, welcome aboard
<sommer> mdke: that's true I think I was confused about links such as: user-guide#nautilus-cdwriter-data
<sommer> then I realized the gnome user-guide is on the website as well... from fix-urls.py
<sommer> mdke: I'm still working on a python script to loop through the files, should hopefully have something by the weekend
<mdke> well, the principle I tried to set out doesn't work for that link ;)
<mdke> there is no file as https://help.ubuntu.com/7.10/user-guide/C/nautilus-cdwriter-data.html
<mdke> https://help.ubuntu.com/7.10/user-guide/C/nautilus-cdwriter.html works though
<sommer> mdke: ya... there are only currently 17 of those type of links, so if nothing else they can be hard coded or something
<mdke> because the section linked to is quite a low level one, it doesn't get its own page
<mdke> yeah. to do it automatically, the script would have to check what level section is linked to, and amend the link to point at the higher level section
<mdke> tricky :)
<sommer> mdke: I don't think that would be too hard once you know which file to link to
<sommer> but to do that you'd have to parse all the xml files
<sommer> then make some kind of index between sect and html file names
<sommer> at least that's been my train of thought
<mdke> it's a bit heavy for something like this
<mdke> see if the gnome guys have any better ideas, although I have the feeling they don't
<sommer> yep it definitely feels heavy... but once the "index" (I was thinking of sqlite) was created it could potentially be used for other things
<sommer> mdke: thanks for the input, I sent an email to gnome-doc list earlier today as well :)
<mdke> sommer: ok. thanks for the work on that. I'll see you late
#ubuntu-doc 2008-01-08
<posingaspopular> somerville32: i really enjoyed your latest blog.
<mrevell> Howdy, is there a known problem with the Ubuntu Documentation style guide at http://doc.ubuntu.com/styleguide/styleguide.html ? I'm getting a 404.
<ubotu> New bug: #181236 in ubuntu-docs (main) "DVD instructions are incorrect" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/181236
<astabeno> Is there any documentation on the wiki about olive gtk-bzr?
<bdmurray> Hello there.  I'm a bit curious about how pages move from wiki.ubuntu.com to help.ubuntu.com
<jjesse> bdmurray: i'm curious as to how they move as well
<astabeno> is there a way to view the docbook documentation from the repository
<dsas> astabeno: http://codebrowse.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-core-doc/ubuntu-doc/ubuntu-hardy/files
<dsas> (browse to a project in ubuntu, press "code", choose a branch, then look for "browse code" on the left.
<astabeno> Is there an article somewhere on the break down of folder structure of the hardy docs?
<dsas> astabeno: not as far as I know
<dsas> astabeno: common contains common docbook files such as licences, authors,
<dsas> debian contains the stuff required to make a package.
<dsas> generic contains non-desktop specific help files such as the server guide
<dsas> libs contains stuff for generating html + pdf from the docbook.
<dsas> teamstuff has more of the same sort of thing I think.
<dsas> ubuntu has the main docbook help files
<dsas> website-index contains a docbook file which gets transformed into the front page of help.ubuntu.com website.
<astabeno> That helps thank you
<astabeno> It looks to me like yelptest just opens the docbook files from my Ubuntu filesystem not from the Ubuntu-hardy directory, is that correct
#ubuntu-doc 2008-01-09
<somerville32> posingaspopular, thanks :)
<mdke> bdmurray: the only way to move them is manually to copy the page content and leave a refresh to the new page address. As for the grounds on which they move, the theory is that documents for Ubuntu users should be on help.u.c, documents for participating in the community are on wiki.u.c
<mdke> bdmurray: in practice there are no doubt some pages which are not on the right website and should be moved, or others which make very fine distinctions
<bdmurray> mdke: the QA team has been writing up information regarding debugging software packages and problems on wiki.u.c that we refer to in bug reports.  One of these was moved the other day.
#ubuntu-doc 2008-01-10
<jjesse> nixternal: can you confirm or check to see a bug for me?   open up helpcenter, go to settings->modules -> internet & network and click on Network settings
<nixternal> in KDE 4?
<posingaspopular> nothing is every broken in KDE
<jjesse> i see it in kde3
<posingaspopular> i am happy
<jjesse> not the index
<jjesse> i get a messed up index pag
<nixternal> I don't even see "settings->modules"
<jjesse> interesting i do
<posingaspopular> yea what richard said
<jjesse> ok where is your help manual for network settins located at?
<nixternal> help:/kcontrol/netpref/index.html
<jjesse> and does the index look correct to you?
<nixternal> there isn't a system settings handbook...good on Kubuntu for that one
<jjesse> maybe my setup is wierd?
 * jjesse is reloading when kde4 comes out anyways
<nixternal> looks good here
<nixternal> it is rather old
<nixternal> oh, I think I know what you are looking at
<nixternal> one sec
<nixternal> help:/knetworkconf/index.docbook
<nixternal> I thought that was fixed a long time ago
<jjesse> yeah that's what i'm gettting
<posingaspopular> is there going to be a way to upgrade from KDE 4 in kubuntu? i assume there will be and nixternal will post the commands in his blag?
<posingaspopular> jjesse: up for membership tomorrow at the CC meeting
<jjesse> should be in the help docs :)
<jjesse> posingaspopular: dont' know if i can make it as i'm teaching tomorrow, but a +1 from me if it matters
<posingaspopular> thanks! I'll pass the message along.
<posingaspopular> even though, to be honest, most of my work has been away from the documentation side
<nixternal> there won't be an upgrade in 8.04 for kubuntu->upgrade(3, 4);
<nixternal> that won't be until 8.10
<Flannel> nixternal: what?
<nixternal> what what?
<Flannel> Oh, Kubuntu 8.04 (3) to Kubuntu 8.04 (4)
<Flannel> gotcha
<nixternal> ya :)
<j1mc> posingaspopular: good luck w/ membership tomorrow, dude.  :)
<posingaspopular> thanks jim
<posingaspopular> you're next!
<posingaspopular> in fact you should have been in front of me
<jjesse> yeah i thought j1mc wasw a member already
<nixternal> he should have been a long time ago, but the CC can't make a reasonable meeting schedule
<j1mc> jjesse: yeah, i have a hard time making the meetings.  they seem to have them when i'm at work.
<jjesse> j1mc: that's my problem as well
<j1mc> that, and ... it seems like they only gave one day's notice prior to this meeting.  :(
<posingaspopular> that's true
<jjesse> yeah they do that al ot don't they
<jjesse> ok time for bed
<posingaspopular> but im taking 1/2 the day from work j1mc
<somerville32> I'm going to propose the CC makes him a member tomorrow even if he isn't there
<posingaspopular> sounds good to me somerville32
<posingaspopular> he did take your spot in feisty open week and everything.
<posingaspopular> he deserves it
<somerville32> I'm pretty sure that was TheSheep
<posingaspopular> no that was j1mc too
<posingaspopular> i was in that session
<somerville32> Okay
<somerville32> Stupid time zone conversions :]
<somerville32> I had a nice big presentation planned out
<mdke> bdmurray: that sounds like it shouldn't have been moved. Maybe move it back and contact the person who did so?
#ubuntu-doc 2008-01-11
<Dr_willis> Been working on https://help.ubuntu.com/community/FuseSmb  - on and off today. Anyone care to check it out? Its my first wiki page from scratch.
<Dr_willis> also i goofed and made one called 'fusesmb' but i cant figure out how to remove that page.
<j1mc> hi Dr_willis.  to delete the page, you can go to the drop-down menu at the top of the page, and then select "delete page" from the list of choices.
<j1mc> it's the last choice.  :)
<j1mc> (the drop-down menu says, "More Actions")
<Dr_willis> lets see.. i dident even notiuce any menus :)
<Dr_willis> I am not allowed to delete this page.....
<Dr_willis> :)
<Dr_willis> but i MADE IT!
 * marcx bru noc
<j1mc> hello ubuntu-doc.
<j1mc> i have a question - what do i need to do about .pot files?
<j1mc> are they auto-generated, or what do they do?
 * marcx zbohom budte neublizil som, zajtra zbohom budem
<XiXaQ> I'm writing a guide on how to install a CalDAV server on ubuntu. Thought I'd post it on the wiki. It'll be my first page there. Which template should I choose?
<sommer> XiXaQ: I'd probably go with CategoryDocumentation
<XiXaQ> oh.. Do I cause alot of people to get mails each time I save? :)
 * XiXaQ was previously known as Sir_Savesalot. 
<sommer> XiXaQ: No the people that get those mails have subscribed to the wiki some how... therefore I feel anyway that if they didn't want the messages they'd adjust their subscriptions
<sommer> XiXaQ: also there is a "minor change" box if you're making a small edit... if you use that usually it doesn't email as many people I've noticed
<XiXaQ> ah..
<astabeno> What is the best way to view the doc book xml to see how yelp will display them?
<sommer> astabeno: I use yelp file:///path/to/file.xml
<astabeno> Thats simple thanks
<sommer> np
<astabeno> Looks like the Instalation page in the server guide can use some updating for Hardy to include the additional installation options.
<astabeno> What is the difference between the TOPICBASED and STANDALONE server guide?
<sommer> astabeno: are you looking at the files from bzr?
<astabeno> sommer: yes I am
<sommer> astabeno: the intro and installation sections were updated for hardy
<sommer> are you looking in generic/server/C?
<sommer> astabeno: looking in generic/server/C?
<astabeno> looks like the generic/server is topic based and generic/serverguide is standalon.  The README in generic/server says the topic based is used in the system documentation.
<astabeno> Where would you view the standalone if you are a typical user
<sommer> astabeno: the generic/serverguide is deprecated... it was used to build the ubuntu-serverguide package, but now generic/server/C is used
<sommer> I beleive :)
<sommer> astabeno: basically it's all topic based now.
<astabeno> sommer:  That makes since thanks for the info.
<astabeno> sommer:  Is it an error that there is a generic/server/C and generic/server/c
<sommer> astabeno: np
<sommer> astabeno: yep, a mistakenly commited patch... will probably be addressed before hardy :)
#ubuntu-doc 2008-01-12
<emmajane> question about bzr... how do I know what the name of the package is that I want to download to fix up?
<Kamping_Kaiser> emmajane, pardon?
<emmajane> I found an error in the documentation that I'd like to fix.
<emmajane> I will need the XML files so that I can edit them and submit a patch.
<Kamping_Kaiser> have a look at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam, it should link to instructions
<emmajane> I've read that. it gives a sample, but I don't understand how to find the specific document that I want to fix.
<emmajane> it gives a kde example...
<emmajane> I have a different page I want to fix.
<Kamping_Kaiser> so have you done a bzr checkout?
<emmajane> previously for different documents, yes.
<emmajane> but I was told which package to download.
<emmajane> This time I just have a URL that I want to fix, but I don't know how to download the related XML files.
<Kamping_Kaiser> if you want to provide a patch to the documentation you'll need to do it on the bzr source, the shipped documentatino wont change, other then translations afaik
<emmajane> yes....
<dsas> emmajane: you probably want one of the -hardy bzr branches on https://code.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu-doc/+branches
<dsas> which one depends on what variant the bug is on edubuntu/kubuntu/ubuntu/xubuntu
<emmajane> do I have to download the whole thing though? when I got the accessibility pages there was a sub-set that I downloaded.
<emmajane> https://help.ubuntu.com/7.10/internet/C/troubleshooting.html
<emmajane> that's the page I want to fix.
<emmajane> I don't know how to translate that page into the right location for the source files though.
<emmajane> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/EasyBazaar is the instructions I used last time to checkout the source. the kubuntu stuff was replaced with a different [branch?] name.
<Kamping_Kaiser> kgoetz@wesnoth:~/public_html/ubuntu-doc$ find ./ -name troubleshooting*
<Kamping_Kaiser> ./ubuntu-hardy/ubuntu/internet/C/troubleshooting.
<Kamping_Kaiser> ./ubuntu-hardy/ubuntu/internet/C/troubleshooting.xml
<Kamping_Kaiser> even.
<Kamping_Kaiser> afk 15 min.
<emmajane> um.
<emmajane> The last time I downloaded documentation I only grabbed a sub-set.
<emmajane> (see above)
<emmajane> so this command doesn't help me, I don't think.
<emmajane> surely we documentation people can give one another better instructions than this? :)
<Kamping_Kaiser> if you havent checked out the ubuntu internet section, you will need to if you want to edit that xml file
<emmajane> YES
<Kamping_Kaiser> *or* download it directly (if you can, i'm not sure though)
<emmajane> how do I do that?
<emmajane> The instructions say, "Locate the branch that you would like to work on. " I don't understand how to do this part of the instructions.
<Kamping_Kaiser> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/Repository
<Kamping_Kaiser> really afk for 15 min
<dsas> emmajane: you locate via the link I gave above. (Though yes, that page could be slightly clearer)
<dsas> as for just checking out one or two file, I didn't know that was possible.
<emmajane> the EasyBazaar gives the instructions for it and recommends it against checking out the whole tree because that takes a long time (IIRC that was the logic)
 * emmajane looks at the link again. I click on "ubuntu-hardy   Current development focus"
<emmajane> and get a list of revisions...
<emmajane> with a URL at the top...
<emmajane> hm.
<emmajane> last time I downloaded just: https://code.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-core-doc/gnome-user-docs/ubuntu-hardy
<dsas> ah, those are the gnome docs + ubuntu alterations. you want the ubuntu-hardy branch listed on that page.
<dsas> oh sorry, you've got that far already
<emmajane> :)
<emmajane> ok, I think I've found the files... from the URL you first gave me you have to click on "browse code"
<dsas> the quickest way as far as I remember is to do a lightweight checkout using http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-core-doc/ubuntu-doc/ubuntu-hardy url
<emmajane> and then you can wander around and find the exact file...
<emmajane> where URL is local dir?
<dsas> the command is bzr checkout --lightweight http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-core-doc/ubuntu-doc/ubuntu-hardy localdir
 * emmajane nods
<dsas> you can browse the code online via the link on the left
<emmajane> downloading now, thanks!!
<emmajane> next question: https://help.ubuntu.com/7.10/internet/C/troubleshooting.html open "Device Manager" ... in my 7.10 it's System -> Preferences -> Hardware Information
<emmajane> there's no such thing as "Device Manager" in the System menu. is that true for you as well?
<dsas> that bug has been reported and fixed in bzr I believe.
<emmajane> hm. I searched for it, but maybe I'm not searching correctly either...
<emmajane> https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/+bugs?field.searchtext=device+manager+documentation&search=Search+Bug+Reports&field.scope=all&field.scope.target=
<dsas> bug 141941 perhaps
<ubotu> Launchpad bug 141941 in zope2 "KeywordIndex and FieldIndex subclassing" [Medium,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/141941
<dsas> bug 141491 even
<ubotu> Launchpad bug 141491 in ubuntu-docs "ubuntu-docs internet string 24 - Device manager is under Preferences not Administration" [Low,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/141491
<emmajane> cool that it's fixed. what was wrong with my search that it didn't find the bug?
<dsas> the bug report doesn't include the string "device manager documentation"
<dsas> (I found the bug by checking the changelog)
<emmajane> it's not smart enough to just do BOOLEAN "OR" searching?
 * dsas shrugs
<emmajane> ok. So let's pretend it wasn't fixed and I still wanted to find the file...
<emmajane> I went to: /ubuntu/internet/C/troubleshooting.xml
<emmajane> sorry full URL: http://codebrowse.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-core-doc/ubuntu-doc/ubuntu-hardy/annotate/asommer70%40gmail.com-20080108215830-oiy3me2cd15s9byf?file_id=4337%401e033ed4-87e8-0310-8703-d68c7bbd86c9%3Atrunk%3Aubuntu%252Finternet%252FC%252Ftroubleshooting.xml
<emmajane> gah
<dsas> right
<emmajane> I followed the links in the "browse code" and found that file.
<emmajane> but that file doens't match: https://help.ubuntu.com/7.10/internet/C/troubleshooting.html
<emmajane> so now I'm back to my original question: how would I find the source file for that Internet page?
<jjesse_> the source would be in the bzr branch
<emmajane> "browse code" is the source files though...
<jjesse_> hold on getting caught up w/ scroll
<dsas> emmajane: right, that file on lp is the development version, the help.ubuntu.com file is the released 7.10 version. it's been modified.
<jjesse_> dsas is correct
<emmajane> but it's *completely* different.
<jjesse_> emmajane thats because people have been working on making changes to it
<jjesse_> everything oon help.ubuntu.com is frozen in place for the life of the documentation
<jjesse_> and on launchpad is the developmental version
<emmajane> so when my friend (who's just installed Ubuntu for the first time) calls me in a panic because he's missing a "Device Manager" found on that Web page I gave you... I, um, have to tell him that the online docs for 7.10 will never match his system?
<jjesse_> if you wanted to look at the source of what is in 7.10 it is found http://codebrowse.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-core-doc/gnome-user-docs/ubuntu-gutsy/files
<jjesse_> emmajane: what probablly happened is there was a bug reported and it got fixed
<jjesse_> but we don't do stable release updates for documents that i am aware of
<emmajane> but I got an engineer to READ documentation!
<emmajane> and it's going to always be wrong?
<jjesse_> yay for engineers reading documentation
<emmajane> totally yay!! :)
<jjesse_> emmajane: it will be updated in the next release
<jjesse_> as it is changed in the bzr branch
<emmajane> 7.10 docs will too, or just the 8.04 docs?
<jjesse_> emmajane: i think we don't do stable release updates for documents
<jjesse_> would have to double check with mdke or something
<emmajane> bad documentation is just wrong.
<jjesse_> emmajane: i agree
<emmajane> good :)
<emmajane> can I register a complaint somewhere? :)
<jjesse_> sure
<emmajane> excellent... where? :)
<jjesse_> mailing list
<emmajane> kay
<jjesse_> ask there if we do updates for documents  that have already been released
<emmajane> yup
 * marcx is away: Gone away for now.
 * marcx_away is back.
<cdm10> I'm wondering how the documentation team maintains the application documentation in Yelp... I'd like to contribute, but I'm not sure how to get started.
<posingaspopular> cdm10: you can check out the getting started page
<posingaspopular> http://www.mdke.org/?p=67
<cdm10> ok
<posingaspopular> oops i think it's the other one...
<posingaspopular> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam
#ubuntu-doc 2008-01-13
<j1mc> heya Admiral_laptop
<Admiral_laptop> hey j1mc
<Admiral_Chicago> how is it going?
<j1mc> i'm all right. :)
<Admiral_Chicago> fsck.
<Admiral_Chicago> firefox keeps crashing
<j1mc> i was having trouble w/ that today, too.
<j1mc> i'm on a sort of roll w/ xubuntu doc updates.
<j1mc> things are moving along well enough
<j1mc> no really big changes, just steady updates
<Admiral_Chicago> good deal
<Admiral_Chicago> make sure to commit them, I'll pull the branch back at my own machine
<j1mc> they are committed: https://code.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-core-doc/ubuntu-doc/xubuntu-hardy
 * somerville32 is doing QA stuff for MOTU.
<somerville32> Yea for us! :)
<j1mc> w00t
<Admiral_Chicago> j1mc: are the revisions from when it was in SVN too or is that bzr specific?
<j1mc> Admiral_Chicago: those revisions are from since they moved it into bzr.
<Admiral_Chicago> wow
<Admiral_Chicago> lots of revisions
<j1mc> just mostly de-ubuntu-izing the xubuntu docs.  not all of it was cleaned up during the last release.
<ubotu> New bug: #182531 in ubuntu-doc "Proliant ml 370 by installation of the HD partitions Iget the note "Unable to determine geometry of file/device ....." in ubuntu 7.10" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/182531
<jjesse> ok frustrating point here, kde documentation is #kde-docs and ubuntu documentation is #ubuntu-doc and i always want to join #ubuntu-docs when i setup a new client or move to a new computer
<jjesse> nixternal: ping??  see email i sent to doc team
<jjesse> nixternal: see most recent commit
<nixternal> jjesse: you are scaring me :p
<nixternal> it just went from a little work to "omg we have a ton to do" :)
<nixternal> wanna split the load? half/half it, or figure out some easy ones that we can have others work on and what not
#ubuntu-doc 2009-01-05
<adiroiban> http://www.mdke.org/?p=67 - Page not found
<adiroiban> Hi, is it possible to create page similar to help.ubuntu.com but with content translated for each language ?
<adiroiban> I don't know how it's done now but I assume the pages from help.ubuntu.com are updated using a script that sync with Rosetta. If this is true, is this script public ?
#ubuntu-doc 2009-01-06
<adiroiban> hi, do you know where I could find the Launchpad OpenID plugin for moinmoin ? the same one used on help.ubuntu.com/community ?
<adiroiban> thanks!
<jjesse> adiroiban have you asked on #launchpad?
#ubuntu-doc 2009-01-07
<ikonia> gents what is the correct process to delete a wiki page from https://help.ubuntu.com ?
<jpds> ikonia: Remove its content?
<ikonia> jpds: I wanted to remove the whole page
<ikonia> basiclly the page is nonsense and not worth the effort of making it a real doc as it's just nonsense content, yet can be quiet dangerous
<jpds> ikonia: My guess is only sysadmins can do that.
<ikonia> that would seem logical,
<ikonia> I couldn't get the owner to delete it (I believe that is an option) I'll speak to the site admins
<Flannel> ikonia: get rid of the bad stuff (even if thats the whole page) in the meantime
<jpds> ikonia: You can contact the SA team at rt@ubuntu.com .
<j1mc> um, i think you can just delete the page
<j1mc> you don't need a sysadmin to do it
<j1mc> oh, sorry... it's not on wiki.ubuntu.com, but help.ubuntu.com?
<j1mc> what is the url?
<j1mc> ping ikonia
<j1mc> ikonia: ping.  :)
<jpds> Hmm, I can see a "Remove spam" option.
<jpds> Ah, not allowed to use that option :)
<ikonia> there is a "remove page" option too, but I only thing thats the owner
<j1mc> ikonia: what is the url?
<ikonia> j1mc: grabbing it
<ikonia> j1mc: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/CustomizationFromScratch
<ikonia> j1mc: I've put as many warnings and santisied it to as least danger as possible
<ikonia> but to be honest - it's nonsense
<j1mc> ikonia: looking, thx
<Flannel> Why wouldn't you just use the alternate CD in expert mode?
<Flannel> Or even just the alternate CD to install a CLI, then add/subtract
<ikonia> Flannel: the guy who wrote it was trying to troll
<ikonia> Flannel: he was an idiot
<ikonia> (to be blunt about it)
<Flannel> ikonia: Just edit away the entire page, and put "use the alternate CD" or whatever.
<ikonia> I'd rather get rid of it
<ikonia> see what j1mc thinks
<ikonia> it serves no purpose, and actually what he's wrote doesn't work at all
<ikonia> so I'd rather get rid of it as a "nonsense" page as it doesn't do what it says, it's dangerous and no-one really wants/needs it
<j1mc> ikonia: i thought i would see a delete button of some kind, but i don't see one.
<ikonia> j1mc: I can see one, but I can't hover over it
<j1mc> hmm
<j1mc> yes, it looks grayed out.
<ikonia> I'll mail one of the admins
<ikonia> seems the best approach
<Rocket2DMn> what are we looking at?
<ikonia> Rocket2DMn: a nonsense wiki post
<Rocket2DMn> oh no, not another one of those
<Rocket2DMn> is it on the community wiki or team wiki?
<ikonia> community
<Rocket2DMn> page?
<ikonia> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/CustomizationFromScratch
<Rocket2DMn> that shouldnt even be on the community wiki
<Rocket2DMn> "This document could potentially cause damage to your system and will have many errors in while it is is currently in development."
<Rocket2DMn> if it's not safe, it really shouldn't be on the community docs
<ikonia> afreed
<ikonia> agreed
<ikonia> I've put as many warnings as possible on it and removed as much danger as possible short of re-writing it
<ikonia> but as the topic is a.) missed by the document b.) dangerous c.) not needed seems sensible to get rid of it
<Rocket2DMn> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Tag#Candidate%20for%20moving
<Rocket2DMn> not sure id even want it on the team wiki, but that area is more of a sandbox than the community docs
<ikonia> I'd just want it gone
<ikonia> I'll drag a mail to the wiki admin
<Rocket2DMn> ah mdke isnt even here
 * Rocket2DMn considers deleting the page himself
<Rocket2DMn> guess we better wait to see what our wiki god has to say about it
 * ikonia summons wiki god
<jpds> ikonia: Who?
<ikonia> the wiki god
<Rocket2DMn> lol yeah that would be mdke, a few of us act as his humble servants
<jpds> ikonia: Well they're not living up to their name.
<ikonia> clearly
<Rocket2DMn> ah, this team just needs some love, thats all
#ubuntu-doc 2009-01-08
<dholbach> hiya
<dholbach> I was just wondering if somebody of you would be interested in holding a session about "writing good documentation" or something similar at the next Ubuntu Developer Week
<dholbach> we still have some open slots on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDeveloperWeek/Prep
<dholbach> you'd probably be the best people to talk about it
<svat> Hello, is it correct that https://help.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/packagingguide/C/ is older than https://help.ubuntu.com/6.10/ubuntu/packagingguide/C ? Is the latter the newest version?
<svat> I guess it's https://wiki.ubuntu.com/PackagingGuide/Complete
#ubuntu-doc 2009-01-09
<krishnan> i would like to contribute to the ubuntu documentation
<krishnan> i would like to contribute to the ubuntu documentation. please tell me how can i proceed?
#ubuntu-doc 2009-01-10
<grobda24> Hello. I can't get this document to turn up in either a title or a text search. https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Mobile%20Broadband%20Internet%20USB%20Adapters
<grobda24> Can anyone find this doc using the wiki search ? https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Mobile%20Broadband%20Internet%20USB%20Adapters
<charlie-tca> Searchbox - mobile broadband then click Titles
<charlie-tca> It should be the first item found
<grobda24> charlie-tca, you can see it ? When I do that it is not listed.
<nixternal> wtf! I just tried it out, and the search page is riddled with Google Ads
<charlie-tca> Yes, I opened a page, typed mobile broadband in the box, and it came up.
<charlie-tca> Also, from https://help.ubuntu.com/ type it in, go to item 8, scroll down the page and it is there
<grobda24> charlie-tca, apologies, I can see it now. I don't what was going on before :/ Nevermind.
<charlie-tca> Great! no problem looking.
<grobda24> cheers
#ubuntu-doc 2009-01-11
<adiroiban> mdke: hi
<mdke> adiroiban: hi
<adiroiban> for hardy I have changed the ubuntu-doc folder organization to match the one from intrepid
<adiroiban> and in this way I can use the same script for doing all the work
<mdke> adiroiban: that's not something we can use I'm afraid - the changes to the directory structure are too invasive to upload to hardy
<mdke> adiroiban: but, most tranlators are not focusing on hardy now anyy
<mdke> s/anyy/anyway
<adiroiban> ok
<mdke> adiroiban: in your last email you asked if I can request the translations for intrepid, but I sent those to you already, you got them, right?
<adiroiban> but the hardy POT files were not changed, so I can use my local folders to generate the report and other stuff
<adiroiban> I got a set
<adiroiban> but I don't know if they were for hardy or intrepid
<mdke> I said in the covering email which release was applicable, hardy or intrepid
<mdke> you should have got them both
<adiroiban> Ah. my bad
<adiroiban> I got both of them
<mdke> great
<adiroiban> Thanks!
<adiroiban> do you think we need to create jaunty reports?
<mdke> I've uploaded the intrepid translations to our ubuntu-intrepid branch
<mdke> jaunty reports would be useful, but not yet - we haven't yet uploaded the pot files for jaunty
<adiroiban> ok.
<adiroiban> I will update the stats page using the new Intrepid po files
<adiroiban> brb... about 15 minutes
<Rocket2DMn> hey mdke
<Rocket2DMn> fyi i was accepted for membership, thank you again for your testimonial!
<mdke> Rocket2DMn: hiya. Yes, I saw that, good job!
<Rocket2DMn> :)
<Rocket2DMn> i also have a question for you:
<Rocket2DMn> why can't we set importance on bugs filed against Ubuntu Documentation?
<mdke> Rocket2DMn: are you in the ubuntu-core-docs team?
<mdke> ubuntu-core-doc, sorry
<mdke> Rocket2DMn: looks like you're not; ubuntu-core-doc is the bug supervisor for the ubuntu-doc project so that's the team that can set importance for bugs
<Rocket2DMn> no, im not in that
<Rocket2DMn> i didnt notice that team was set as the maintainer
<adiroiban>  back
<Rocket2DMn> well, i have no intention of being a committer, i'm not familiar with bzr or the process
<mdke> Rocket2DMn: it's really easy to learn if you're up for working on some of the system documents - we always need new contributors :)
<mdke> Rocket2DMn: obviously, we can help you as you learn
<Rocket2DMn> if you or somebody else wants to teach me, then i'm willing to learn
<mdke> sure, you'll always find help. The only skill you need is to be keen to contribute
<Rocket2DMn> i havent used bazaar at all, and dont actually know anything about the system documents and ubuntu-docs package
<mdke> and having seen your work so far, I know you have that skill
<Rocket2DMn> ive done most of my work on the wiki
<mdke> Rocket2DMn: have a read of the pages under https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/SystemDocumentation and see if things start to make sense or if you have other questions
<Rocket2DMn> alright, i'll have a look at that shortly, looks like there is a lot of info there
<mdke> yeah
<Rocket2DMn> oh, and did you get my message a week or two ago about your forums howto
<Rocket2DMn> its a little outdated
<Rocket2DMn> http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=81999
<mdke> Rocket2DMn: yeah, we should definitely update that, I'll put it on my mental todo list
<mdke> thanks
<adiroiban> mdke: the intrepid xml and html generation and status script is running and in a couple of hour we should have a result. you only need to put the achive form Launchpad in the docs root folder and the script will do the job :)
<Rocket2DMn> mdke, i had a look through those pages, they seem straightforward enough.  I'll setup my local copy/branch later tonight when i'm back in Ubuntu.
<mdke> Rocket2DMn: great
<mdke> adiroiban: great as well :)
<adiroiban> :)
<adiroiban> mdke: what do you say about the idea of having the Glossary as a docbook?
<mdke> adiroiban: the question is whether it would be useful for inclusion in the system documentation? I'm not sure really
<mdke> I'm not sure whether people would use it, or how much work would be required to make it high quality
<adiroiban> now we have the "windows" glossary
<adiroiban> I find it useful for new computer users
<mdke> that's part of the "Switching from Windows" document, yes
<mdke> maybe we could adapt the wiki glossary page to be used in the system documentation. Quite a few irrelevant items would be removed, but reading through it, it doesn't look to be in bad shape
<adiroiban> I found it more useful in the translated form
<adiroiban> as a user can see a concept (maybe translated)
<adiroiban> and search to see what's that
<adiroiban> for example if I want to search yelp for "sesiune" (the romanian translation for session) , it will return 0 results
<adiroiban> if I will try "session" (but I don't know if a user will do that) , yelp returns to many results, from different applications
<adiroiban> but the term is not described in any result
<mdke> that's strange
<mdke> yelp should find translated words as well, I wonder why sesiune doesn't have any results
<adiroiban> "session" is popular in gnome-user-docs
<adiroiban> but gnome-user-docs is not yet fully translated
<mdke> I see
<mdke> "session" doesn't appear in the Glossary on the help wiki though...
<mdke> maybe we could add items from other glossaries
<adiroiban> I like the idea of having a wiki as it is easy to edit
<adiroiban> but that glossary is not included in yelp
<adiroiban> maybe create a script to parse the wiki and create a yelp document
<adiroiban> looking after other glossaries is  another step
<adiroiban> there is an Gnome one... but it was not updated
<adiroiban> it would be great to have one glossary for all open source projects
<mdke> there are no good tools in existence for converting wiki markup to docbook, otherwise we'd have our whole project in a wiki
<adiroiban> but I don't know if this is feasible
<mdke> there are some, but they all have quite significant defects
<mdke> so the best we can do is to export the wiki page into xml using one of the existing tools, tidy it up, and continue to maintain it in xml
<adiroiban> I would like to have a translatable glossary for 2 reasons. 1. Help users, 2. Help translators
<mdke> right, but a glossary for Rosetta would be very difficult to a glossary for Ubuntu documentation
<adiroiban> true... maybe have the translators glossary and from a subset of those term to create the documentation glossary
<adiroiban> I could imagine that for translators, this glossary will look more like a terminology
<mdke> hmm
<adiroiban> but a least for Ubuntu, from the user point of view, I can imagine a common glossary for Ubuntu and GNOME
<mdke> right, that's what I meant by adding items from other glossaries
<adiroiban> apart from GNOME, what other glosarries were you thinking of?
<mdke> any others that exist, I don't know
<adiroiban> ok
<adiroiban> I will start a discussion on the mailinglist to see what other glossaries we could use
<adiroiban> and what people say about it... maybe the glossary will not be of to much help in ubuntu-docs
<mdke> yes. You can carry on the existing thread
 * mdke goes to bed, night all
<adiroiban> good night
<adiroiban> the script is still translating xml files
<adiroiban> :)
#ubuntu-doc 2010-01-11
<Traveler6> could someone help me I just downloaded ubuntu now I am trying to set it up and it is asking for the server and the service type could someone please help
<joe7306221> //
#ubuntu-doc 2010-01-12
<j1mc> ping - anyone.  :)
<dhillon-v10> j1mc, pong
<j1mc> i'm going to be attending the writersua conference (http://www.writersua.com/ohc/index.html) in march, and..
<j1mc> they have something called a peer showcase
<j1mc> the organizer of the conference wants to know if we have any Ubuntu UA projects that we'd like to display in the peer showcase
<j1mc> http://www.writersua.com/ohc/peershowcase_info.htm
<j1mc> i was thinking of a couple of things... doc template... how LP handles translations... also, possibly having something on mallard...
<dhillon-v10> j1mc, sounds nice they had a great video on youtube about translations in launchpad you could try that
<j1mc> ah, cool.  i will check that out.  do you have a link?
<Akos> hellouw
<[Evert]> anyone here who can add to the ubuntu server doc.?
<[Evert]> http://doc.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/serverguide/C/mail-filtering.html
<[Evert]> please add for Amavis:
<[Evert]> # to just use ALL domains, use
<[Evert]> @local_domains_acl = qw(.);
<Akos> I think it's better if you file a bug
<Akos> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ubuntu-docs/
<[Evert]> will have a look at it
<highvoltage> hi~
<highvoltage> Hi!, even
<highvoltage> I'd like to be able to edit things in ~edubuntu-docs, which is owned by ubuntu-core-doc
<highvoltage> what's the right way to do it, should I join ubuntu-core-doc?
<Akos> where do we report this one : http://www.ubuntu.com/testing ?
<Akos> Alpha 1 was not released on may 14 2009
<Kr0ntab> good morning
<Akos> good evening (:
<Kr0ntab> hehe
<Akos> hi starcraftman, I have a question
<Akos> if youare around that is
<starcraftman> Akos: oh I don't know about that, did you bring an offering of food?
<Akos> well i thought a bug on the docs would satisfy you
 * Akos sobs
<starcraftman> Akos: is this bug chocolate coated?
<Akos> umm let's says we can fix that, yes
<starcraftman> Akos: hehehe, alright shoot then.
<Akos> http://www.ubuntu.com/testing - Alpha 1 was not released 14th May
<Akos> especially not the Lucid Lynx one
<Akos> should i file a bug?
<starcraftman> hmmmm
<starcraftman> Akos: that is true, also it appears alpha two should be posted.
<Akos> yes, exactly
<starcraftman> date for release is 7th of Jan, wanna have a look see if there's some reason it's delayed.
<starcraftman> Else include that in bug filing too.
<Akos> also: http://www.ubuntu.com/testing/lucid/alpha1
<Akos> there is no link for netbook version
<Akos> hmm, seems that's more complex, since there is no release for ubuntu netbook, just daily ones
<starcraftman> Akos: guess they will release one lateri n cycle, alpha 2 doesn't appear to be on that mirror.
<starcraftman> Alpha day slipped maybe.
<Akos> http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1379297
<Akos> 2 days to go until the aplha 2
<Akos> *aplha
<starcraftman> rgr that, ok
<Akos> later on when you have time I have some more coplex question
 * Akos ads 's'
<starcraftman> Akos: I have time now.
<starcraftman> Waiting for a iso download, I kyboshed my server!
<starcraftman> :(
<Akos> okay, I'd like to know how to help with the doc bugs
<starcraftman> Akos: awwww, I thought it'd be a wiki question.
 * starcraftman is dissapointed.
<Akos> dissapointed, ain'T you?
<Akos> haha
<Akos> okay, should i stick to the wiki and maaaaaaaaaybe help with the doc later on ?
<starcraftman> Akos: well with docs ya need commit status. Few people have it, without that, your relegated to finding a bug, checking out the relevant documentation and making a fix for the code, then replying to bug with patch.
<starcraftman> You can apply for commit status, but ya have to have done sys docs for at least a few months.
<starcraftman> Just like ya can't be admin without knowing how the wiki works.
<starcraftman> Akos: you know how to use bzr?
<starcraftman> doing docs on system isn't that much harder than wiki, it's just different. For wiki it's important to know the markup well, for docs it's bzr + mallard (is that it now?)
<starcraftman> hey Akos, where ya go?
 * starcraftman pokes akos with a rubber ducky to make sure he's still alive.
<humphreybc> hi everyone
 * starcraftman waves hello to humphreybc
<humphreybc> I'd like to talk about collaboration between the manual project and the docs team - i've sort of neglected you guys recently, sorry.
<starcraftman> humphreybc: hmmm, well probably not to me then, I rn't important enough.
<starcraftman> humphreybc: spoken to popey or mdke?
<starcraftman> oh, darn, pinged em now ><
<humphreybc> yup i've been talking to popey
<starcraftman> humphreybc: sounds like ya talking to right person then. I do more of wiki stuff anyway, if ya need an admin i'm about.
<humphreybc> Oh cool thanks
<humphreybc> Okay i'm going to lighten up the justification - what else would the docs team like to see from the manual guys?
<Akos> starcraftman: sorry, our cat got lost, been searching for it in the past 1 hour
<starcraftman> Akos: lost cat?
<Akos> it just dissapeared
<starcraftman> let it out house?
<Akos> yeah, unfortunately
<humphreybc> And you found it?
<Akos> not yet, i'm just doing the note to put on the front entrance of the building, maybe someone has seen it
<humphreybc> Aren't cats quite good at coming home? Or is it a kitten?
<Akos> well 6 months old
<humphreybc> okay
#ubuntu-doc 2010-01-14
<xchat-p3t3r> hi..
<xchat-p3t3r> i'm involved in the Ubuntu Manual translating
<xchat-p3t3r>  what have i to do to begin this activity?
<xchat-p3t3r> bcause some time launchpad doesn't allows making changes..
<lepr> What or where is the "Manual"?
<xchat-p3t3r> ?
<lepr> I found it
<lepr> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-manual
<xchat-p3t3r> ok...i've read
<xchat-p3t3r> one question: i have to active a SSh key?
<lepr> From the Manual: "We've got our own IRC channel - #ubuntu-manual on irc.freenode.net "
<xchat-p3t3r> so?
<lepr> so, you might want to check in that channel as well.  I checked what channels your user was in and that was not one of them.
<lepr> i see now he is gone.
<vish>  hi.. anyone know why the "topic" section in the Help& support switch from being on the left side on the main page to the right side in the rest of the contents?
<vish> hmm...
<doctormo> nixternal: I figured it might be better responding to your comment here, promote a discussion in context.
<doctormo> Let me know when your online
 * vish wonders if that blog was really essential ;)
<doctormo> vish: Of course not essential, but most certainly useful.
<vish> doctormo: dont get me wrong,  But IMO , seemed a bit like airing dirty linen... :)  this was just a small misunderstanding which would smoothen out
<doctormo> vish: Isn't that what I said? No problems here. But since I did blog about the Manual team I felt that the issues should be reported.
<vish> k.. :)
 * doctormo has the good fortune to have not been involved.
<nixternal> yo yo, doctormo getting ready to do a podcast interview with the Kubuntu and KDE peeps...
<nixternal> just open up discussion, I can follow along and yell when I can :D
<doctormo> nixternal: Forgot what I was going to say now... one second
<nixternal> lol
<doctormo> nixternal: Ah right, yes google is a problem, multitudes of data is a problem
<nixternal> I hate when I do that...though you went almost 2 hours...I will ping someone and 15 minutes later forget :)
<doctormo> nixternal: I don't think the manual is targeted at online availability per say, it's targeted at CD shippment or deb compilation AFAICS.
<nixternal> problem is this though with shipping it, our CDs are packed as it is, and in order to get something else in there, sometimes the only way is to remove something else...though I think with the removal of gimp that helped
<nixternal> but why have 2 forms of documentation locally installed?
<nixternal> system documentation and yelp are meant to take care of that
<doctormo> nixternal: The manual isn't documentation, it's more instructive and clear cut. Imagien the difference between microwave instruction manuals and microwave documentation books.
<nixternal> I know in KDE, when in an application, we can go up to the menu and hit Help -> Foo's Manual and start reading about the application we are using...I am sure GNOME does it similarly
<nixternal> doctormo: that is what "Topic Based Help" is supposed to be, instructive and clear cut
<nixternal> minimal and to the point
<doctormo> *shrug* obviously it isn't working, I don't know anyone that's commented on using it or that it's helped them achieve something.
<nixternal> my vision for a manual would be online distribution
<nixternal> doctormo: you can look at bug report, plenty of people are using it
<doctormo> Indeed, not the same, but maybe the same content.
<nixternal> you and I may not use it, but a lot of new users are using it
<doctormo> nixternal: What I really want to say is: so long as the manual isn't a web page, let them get on with it and see what comes out.
<nixternal> well, if the content in the manual should be in documentation, why not fix it in the official documentation?
 * doctormo teaches ubuntu desktop to new people and knows of none of the users that do.
<doctormo> nixternal: Because then it wouldn't be a manual would it.
<nixternal> create a new project to fix what seems to me a bug report at best, isn't good justification
<doctormo> nixternal: the manual isn't documentation... that's the social bug.
<nixternal> if it is written and aimed to help someone, it is documentation
<doctormo> Ah so now you'll want to be conflicting with the ubuntu learning team's content.
<Pendulum> From what I can tell a manual is what you read before you start doing something, a help menu is meant for once you're having a problem and need to know how to do something?
<nixternal> Pendulum: yes
<doctormo> and I suppose spread-ubuntu is also running fowl since they do the same thing.
<nixternal> I don't know what either project has, so I can't comment
<doctormo> nixternal: I thought you were a LoCo person? (a subject for another time and channel)
<nixternal> just to point out, you used the term "running fowl", I didn't...just because someone is doing something similar, I don't see it as running fowl at all...this is open source by the way, people are free to do whatever they want
<nixternal> I am just curious as to why people would want to start a similar project instead of helping the current project that is a) official, b) installed by default
<doctormo> Anyway, I thought it could have been handled better, instead of conflicting your team could have a) offered a position as sub-team, promoting the manual and helping their members pride and b) Invited their writers to use existing content from the docs team.
<nixternal> doctormo: I am a LoCo person, and just because I am, doesn't mean I use the products there
<nixternal> doctormo: we would have loved to do such a thing, but we were never a) even aware of this project until reading it from a website, b) not aware of such a project until after it had already been started
<nixternal> It isn't like they came to use months ago with an idea and asked for help, so trying to put blame on the doc team is lame at best
<doctormo> nixternal: No blame here, and those arguments are illogical. I'm stating what I felt you might have been able to do recently, even after a surpise discovery.
<nixternal> huh?
<nixternal> how are they illogical?
<nixternal> you come at me saying "instead of conflicting your team"
<doctormo> Because what they could have done months ago and what you could have known ages ago has no baring on what you might have been able to do recently.
<nixternal> we didn't conflict anything, we gave constructive criticism
<nixternal> that's horsecrap, you make it sound like it is the docs team fault for stuff...it isn't...we tried to provide constructive criticism and now we are being made to look like the bad people here
<nixternal> you can look at myself, mdke, phil bull...we have been around here for 5+ years each, we have seen manuals come and go, pass and fail...if you remember at one time, Ubuntu Documentation was a manual
<doctormo> That isn't what I'm saying, I have only explained what I feel, you don't have to agree but I'd note that I haven't blamed anyone or faulted. I just think your positive outcome could have been more positive.
<nixternal> "instead of conflicting your team" <- that sounds like you are trying to put it on the doc team though
<nixternal> if that isn't what you mean, then I apologize
<doctormo> nixternal: You read my blog, you know I think conflict is positive.
<doctormo> nixternal: Dialectic etc.
<nixternal> oh, you forgot a comma...I can read, really I can :p
<doctormo> ah, my fault, sorry.
<nixternal> that's fine, I apologize for not at least catching it sooner
<nixternal> now, as a sub-team, I have no problem with that
<nixternal> seeing as our docs are freely licensed, don't think we really need to invite anyone to use the existing content, figured the license would have done so already
<doctormo> nixternal: It's the look of the thing, social etc. brings people in.
<nixternal> right
<doctormo> Also positive bias, we see what we are told is there, we may not thing it exists otherwise :-)
<nixternal> see, I mostly concentrate on the Kubuntu side of things, so in that case mdke would be the best person to do such a thing
<nixternal> we had a guy writing a manual, I tried to get him to help us with docs, he was a bit confrontational and I haven't seen anything since from him
<nixternal> though we definitely don't have any room for a manual on the Kubuntu CD
<doctormo> The main guy Benjamin, he was looking for (and probably still is) guidence, official seating for the project. And since from the look of the project, he's a kick ass project leader, I'm looking forward to see what comes out of the project or at the very least how he fails.
<nixternal> I can tell you he is a kick ass project leader...I want to know how the hell he got so many people going, "HELL YEAH! I want to contribute"
<nixternal> we ask for contributors and everyone is like, "writing docs suck!"
<doctormo> So far, the deadlines for chapters in blueprints, the spread of work over multiple contributors and the narrow focus of the effort.
<nixternal> the only prob with documenting, is it gets old fast, easy to burn out
<nixternal> I had to literally take 2 years almost away from it, I grew so tired of it
<doctormo> Plus, it's selling the dream, not the work. "We need people to write docs" vs "Ubuntu needs a manual that helps new users and you could be one of those that helps make it happen!"
<doctormo> That's another thing I'm curious on watching, what happens for Lucid+1
<nixternal> yeah, I should have done blueprints for Kubuntu docs, I am kind of jealous of that...I know for Lucid+1 we (Kubuntu too) will use blueprints over a stupid wiki page
<Pendulum> nixternal: I suspect he somewhat got the fire because I think at least some of the people involved are new-ish
<nixternal> and they are using LaTeX right?
<Pendulum> I considered helping with it because I'd like to get into documentation, but am too shy to ask most of the time and not sure quite where/how to start
<doctormo> I think the narrow focus really helps keep curious people in the project... they can see the finish line and they can see chunks of work.
<Pendulum> nixternal: yes
<nixternal> LaTeX seems more difficult that docbook, and everyone says docbook is a barrier into contributing
<nixternal> that's what I really find interesting
<doctormo> nixternal: The learning project is using Asciidoc and converting to Docbook.
<nixternal> so the manual has shown me that those who say docbook is a barrier are wimps :p
 * nixternal perfers rst over asciidoc
<Pendulum> docbook is a technical barrier, not a social one. I do wonder if there are maybe more social barriers than technical when it comes to documentation
<Pendulum> "social" in the broadest definition of the word
<nixternal> I was using asciidoc for a job I did, and then went to PyCon where they taught me all about the wonderful ways of rst
<doctormo> Oh there was a whole research session to pick Asciidoc over a number of alternatives.
<nixternal> I wonder if people thing we expect perfect english in our docs or something? I know I am far from speaking perfect english let alone writing it...that's why we have people like mdke and phil who can spot bad grammar and typos a mile away
<nixternal> :)
<nixternal> yeah, asciidoc is brutally simple
<doctormo> That's the ticket! we don't need complex stuff for classes, most of the document is template driven anyway.
<doctormo> By the way, we still need to suck in the docs team's docbook code to start generating translations.
<doctormo> I was jealous that the manual team already has them. heh.
<nixternal> which is interesting, because I don't know if the xubuntu-docs even have translations
<vish> ... anyone know why the "topic" section in the Help& support switch from being on the left side on the main page to the right side in the rest of the contents?
<vish> !test
<ubot4> yes, I'm alive.
<gmendoza> good afternoon
<gabless> gmendoza Yellow
<gmendoza> :-)
<gabless> What's goin' on?
<gmendoza> just wrapping up work... gonna try to make some headway with some doc patches today.
<gabless> doc has patches?
<gmendoza> meant patches/diffs for server guide
<gabless> Like revisions>?
<gabless> Oops, *?
<gmendoza> yup.
<gabless> Huh, neat, haha
#ubuntu-doc 2010-01-15
<akaihola> How to report inaccuracies on immutable wiki.ubuntu.com pages? Couldn't find guidelines for that on the WikiGuide or DocumentationTeam pages.
<mdke> akaihola: what page is it?
<akaihola> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/X/Troubleshooting/Freeze
<mdke> akaihola: it's not immutable - you can login and edit it afaics
<mdke> almost all pages on wiki.u.c can be edited by anyone, except for pages which are part of the wiki software itself (MoinMoin)
<mdke> we don't really use access control as far as I know
<akaihola> mdke: Oh sorry, I didn't notice I had been logged out.
<mdke> np :)
<akaihola> mdke: Anyway, I don't have sufficient knowledge to correct the page, need to discuss it first. Where?
<mdke> akaihola: in this particular case, you should contact the X team who maintain that section of the wiki - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/X/SwatTeam
<akaihola> mdke: Thanks!
<mdke> no problem
<vish> mdke: hi.. could you have a look at Bug 507788
<ubot4> Launchpad bug 507788 in yelp "Help Documentation, TOC switches from left to right when user selects topic" [Low,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/507788
<vish> mdke: shaunm mentioned it is " not extremely difficult.  everything relevant is in xslt or css files" , but i'm not able to find why it does this :(
<mdke> vish: will take a look
<vish> thanks
<mdke> vish: I don't know enough about yelp to fix this. Probably since the standard gnome approach is too use the TOC on the right, we should do the same with the index page, but the index page is heavily customised
<mdke> vish: you'd need to dig around quite a lot in the yelp package in Ubuntu, and in particular the index page patch that we use
<vish> mdke: ah , ok. thanks :)
<mdke> sorry not to be more help
<vish> np.. ;)
#ubuntu-doc 2010-01-16
<mistrynitesh> hello all... just got notifications about recent merges, but 'bzr update' does not seem to get me the latest changes...
<mistrynitesh> is it 'bzr update' or 'bzr pull'
<highvoltage> mdke: did you really have to hijack that thread :/
<mdke> highvoltage: huh?
<mdke> highvoltage: seems pretty on-topic to me. I responded to one of three subjects in the topic, and gave it an appropriate subject line
<dhillon-v10> mdke, hi :) how's it going
<mdke> dhillon-v10: no bad thanks
<mdke> dhillon-v10: you?
<dhillon-v10> mdke, pretty good, how's the bug work going
<mdke> I've more or less caught up with the bugmail I had
<mdke> do you have something you want me to look at?
<dhillon-v10> mdke, I think you covered almost everything I had :) thanks
<mdke> cool
<dhillon-v10> mdke, I am focusing a lot more on kubuntu and edubuntu bugs, when we have awesome people like you and others I think I don't have to work a lot here, while kubuntu needs a lot of love
<highvoltage> mdke: hmm, I guess you're right. It just looked like it went from an ubuntu one topic to a general canonical bashing discussion, but looing at the original blog post in question I see that it is indeed on-topic
<mdke> dhillon-v10: that's cool - we all need help but I'm pleased you are helping with kubuntu
<mdke> highvoltage: well, yes. But defining my post as "general canonical bashing" is also pretty off target! It's specifically about copyright assignment
<dhillon-v10> mdke, I will fix some other bugs today so you can probably look at then tonight maybe
<mdke> highvoltage: I don't engage in general canonical bashing, at least not intentionally
<mdke> dhillon-v10: sure, great
<highvoltage> mdke: right, I was just explaining where I was coming from
<mdke> I'd be sorry if my post came across wrong :(
<highvoltage> mdke: probably nothing to worry about or overthing. I guess with these topics it's fine as long as people keep level-headed and don't get emotional about it
<mdke> yes
<mdke> I personally think it's a real issue
<j1mc> is this something on the ML?
<mdke> j1mc: on -devel
<j1mc> ah, ok
<j1mc> mdke: i know it's a longshot, but do you think you'll be able to make it to the desktop help event in chicago in march?
<mdke> j1mc: fraid not. I wish I could
<mdke> j1mc: sounds like a great idea
<j1mc> mdke: yeah, shaun is doing a lot to coordinate approaches to user help across distros and desktop environments.
<j1mc> so far there are just 3 confirmed, but hopefully we'll get more as we get closer to the event.
<dhillon-v10> j1m hi :)
<j1mc> dhillon-v10: hey
<dhillon-v10> j1mc, I'll finish up the accessibility stuff today and then get back to you guys :)
<j1mc> dhillon-v10: sounds great
<mdke> j1mc: yes, sounds good. (sorry was staring at my screen without releasing that I'd lost connection)
<mdke> j1mc: you, shaunm and nixternal is a very good start as that means contributions from ubuntu, gnome, xfce and kde
<j1mc> i hope folks from other distros can make it, too.
 * mdke nods
<j1mc> bbl
#ubuntu-doc 2010-01-17
<dhillon-v10> mdke, are you around ?
<j1mc> jjesse: 'morning :)
<j1mc> mdke: do you have some free time for some questions?
<j1mc> mdke: it looks like, if i were to adapt ubuntu docs to xubuntu docs, the xsl file that i would most need to be concerned with is the ubuntu-html-single-cust.xsl file
<j1mc> it looks like that outputs the docs to the html pages
<j1mc> i see where the docs there point to a css file that we would want to change for xubuntu.
<j1mc> mdke: ... correction, i think i should use the *ubuntu-html-chunk-cust.xsl* file.
<swoody> what's the preferred way to mark wiki pages for deletion?
<swoody> ah, I think I found it...
<swoody> <<Include(Tag/Deletion)>>
<dhillon-v10> swoody, ask starcraftman if he's around to delete them
<swoody> is that correct/preferred?
<swoody> dhillon-v10: oh I can bother starcraftman >:d
<swoody> >:D*
<starcraftman> swoody: only if you've a food offering!
<dhillon-v10> swoody yup that's what I do most of the time
<dhillon-v10> starcraftman, hi what's up
<swoody> starcraftman: I didn't make it to the Chicago Loco doc jam today, so I have a load of cookies here ;)
<starcraftman> swoody: COOKIES!
<swoody> :D
<starcraftman> Now, you just need to invent a transporter swoody
<swoody> Swoody's Famous Cookies... of DOOM!!
<swoody> starcraftman: yeah, that's in Aplha right now. The mouse test... well... it wasn't successful :(
<starcraftman> swoody: cookies of doom don't sound very tasty.
<starcraftman> so what's wrong with pages? And yes, that is the delete tag, adds it to the cue.
<swoody> starcraftman: just cleaning up the Chicago Wiki pages today :)
<swoody> like I said, Doc Jam @ Chicago Loco as we speak :)
<starcraftman> swoody: and need pages deleted?
<starcraftman> Not gonna use em later?
<swoody> starcraftman: probably not, we're trying to move some of our topics from unused wiki pages to the ML
<dhillon-v10> starcraftman, a user can delete the community wiki pages right
<starcraftman> swoody: we talking with wiki.ubuntu.com pages?
<swoody> starcraftman: yep :)
<starcraftman> dhillon-v10: no, help.ubuntu.com/community pages can only be deleted/renamed by admins, like me.
<dhillon-v10> starcraftman, :) admins
<starcraftman> swoody: oh alright, you can do it yourself then.
<swoody> starcraftman: how do I do that? :o
<starcraftman> swoody: You don't know how the secret power? 5 cookie entry fee.
 * swoody shoves 5 cookies into an envelope, and labels it 'To: The great North' :)
<starcraftman> lol
<starcraftman> Top of a Page, More action > Move Rename Delete a page. Pick right option.
<swoody> lol, I just found that :)
<starcraftman> And NOTE! You must delink all links to a page prior to moves please.
<starcraftman> Else, dead links.
<swoody> starcraftman: in the process of overhauling wiki, so links will be changed, too :)
<swoody> thanks for the help :)
<starcraftman> swoody: ok
<mdke> j1mc: yes, it's the chunk xsl file
<j1mc> mdke: thanks
<mdke> j1mc: I'm around now if you have some more questions
<j1mc> mdke: thanks - basically, what i was intending to do was to branch ubuntu docs, remove the .bzr file, do some initial changes, and then copy those files into xubuntu-docs
<j1mc> i would then do a bzr-add on the xubuntu-docs repo
<j1mc> i can do this because all of the ubuntu-docs are in a "desktop guide" folder
<j1mc> sorry... s/ubuntu-docs/xubuntu-docs
<j1mc> i tried doing a bzr merge lp:ubuntu-docs into xubuntu-docs
<j1mc> but i ended up with 1440 conflicts
<mdke> hah
<mdke> j1mc: isn't it cleaner to just branch ubuntu-docs and keep the history, then make whatever changes you need to?
<mdke> that way the revision history is still there, I feel it might be easier to merge other changes back and forward in the future that way
<j1mc> mdke: that would work, too... how would i create the new branch up on the xubuntu-docs repo?
<mdke> j1mc: probably the easiest way would be to delete the existing lp:xubuntu-docs/lucid branch (which I think is identical to lp:xubuntu-docs/karmic and then replace it with the new one
<mdke> or if you're not comfortable in doing that yet, push it up with a different name for now
<j1mc> mdke: i'd rather push it up with another name for now
<mdke> fine
<j1mc> mdke: cool - thanks
<mdke> j1mc: np, let me know how it goes
<j1mc> mdke: thanks again.  it looks like i've got things set up in a good place
<mdke> I'll be happy to help with the packaging: would be good to keep things closer to ubuntu-docs
<j1mc> mdke: i agree - thanks for your help
<mdke> phil's mallard mockup is quite cool
<dhillon-v10> mdke, hi :) how is it going
<j1mc> mdke: he has ported ubuntu-docs to mallard?
<j1mc> mdke: shaunm has revised the site at http://projectmallard.org - the site is written in mallard.
<dhillon-v10> j1mc, hi :)
<j1mc> hey dhillon-v10
<dhillon-v10> j1mc, I am working on some mockups too as we decided on that meeting, shaunm send me some really cool templates
<mdke> j1mc: no, it's just a mockup at present I think
<mdke> j1mc: but his idea is to port the whole thing
<dhillon-v10> mdke, can you give me a link to that mockup
<mdke> dhillon-v10: it's the second link here: https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-doc/2010-January/014184.html
<dhillon-v10> mdke, thanks a lot :)
<dhillon-v10> mdke, oh that email is still in my inbox :)
<mdke> i'm off to bed, ciao
<j1mc> ciao, mdke
#ubuntu-doc 2011-01-10
<cjohnston> I'm curious as to why the "wiki admins" need to be advertised on the Home page of the wiki
<swoody> Looking for some help with wiki table layouts
<swoody> I want to center the contents of the table cell, but I have not found how to do that
<swoody> it used to work, but it appears there was some change to the wiki and now it's not working :/
<swoody> I used the : syntax, but even now when I add 'text-align: center;' it doesn't work
#ubuntu-doc 2011-01-14
<mdke> cjohnston: I can't see that, has it been remedied already?
<cjohnston> mdke: I've removed it twice now.
<cjohnston> mdke: http://wiki.ubuntu.com/Home?action=diff&rev1=112&rev2=113
#ubuntu-doc 2011-01-15
<mdke> cjohnston: thanks
<cjohnston> mdke: np
#ubuntu-doc 2011-01-16
 * jasono is away: I'm busy
<rusivi> Regarding immutable page: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/StableReleaseUpdates -> Under "sun-java*" it notes, "...as long as Sun as provides updates." This should be changed to, "as long as Sun  provides updates." or "as long as Oracle provides updates." If it was not immutable I would have fixed it myself. :D
<j1mc> jjesse-netbook: hey
<jjesse-netbook> hey j1mc
<head_victim> rusivi: I have just updated it to read "as long as Sun/Oracle provides updates." to remove the extra "as" and add the reference to Oracle.
<jjesse> j1mc how are things going?
<j1mc> jjesse: all right - you?
<jjesse> good busy but good
<j1mc> where are you working now?  symantec or something?
<jjesse> i work for a partner for symantec
<jjesse> #1 partner in north america
<j1mc> ah, ok
<jjesse> i'm in charge of growing the companies security practixe
<jjesse> practice
<j1mc> cool.  brb
#ubuntu-doc 2012-01-09
<DJones> Who is the best person to mention a change needed on https://help.ubuntu.com/community/WindowsDualBoot It mentions free recovery disks from Neosmart Technologies, looking at their website, they now make a $9 charge to cover the cost of licencing fees with MS
<DJones> The link to the change is http://neosmart.net/blog/2009/windows-7-system-repair-discs/ with details of the licencing change at http://neosmart.net/blog/2011/windows-recovery-discs-updated-reinstated/
<jbicha> DJones: it's a wiki, you should be able to edit it yourself if you like
#ubuntu-doc 2012-01-10
<oscalation> anyone up, someone is trying to edit my wiki page and they are stating the page is immutable? not sure how I can fix this.
<ts2> oscalation: are then logged into the wiki?
<oscalation> Yes
<oscalation> When im logged in i can edit the page, when im logged out I cant. Most likely this is the issue.
<oscalation> ts2, can you confirm by attempting to edit my wiki page?
<ts2> sure, got a link?
<ts2> oscalation: ^?
<oscalation> pm'ed
<ts2> oscalation: well, when I'm not logged in, it shows "immutable page", but once I log in, I can edit it
<oscalation> perfect.
<oscalation> thanks alot ts2
#ubuntu-doc 2012-01-11
<BarkingFish> Good evening all :)   I wonder if you could help me with a page on the Ubuntu wiki please - it's a documentation guide to packaging, which I'm supposed to be learning from; but part of the page, probably a paragraph and a half, is in another language and I don't know whether it's been vandalised or what, but I may be missing something which I don't rightly understand.
<BarkingFish> This is the page: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/PackagingGuide/Howtos/BuildingTheSourcePackage?highlight=%28CategoryPackagingGuideHowto%29
<BarkingFish> About a third to two thirds of the way down, it switches to something which I suspect could be Spanish or Italian, neither of which I understand :)
<MrChrisDruif> BarkingFish; it seems it's bilingual
<MrChrisDruif> I don't know why..
<BarkingFish> yeah, but it's not bilingual.  If it was, the whole page would be translated into both - if you look, it goes english to about 1/3 of the way down, switches to whatever language it is, and then goes back to english abruptly toward the bottom
<MrChrisDruif> It's three times the same thing it seems?
<BarkingFish> possibly translated text put in the wrong place, surely translations would be done via the link at the top of the page, right?
<MrChrisDruif> At quick glance the two English sections are the same
<BarkingFish> Yeah, and according to google translate, there's spanish and a blob of Italian in there too :)
<BarkingFish> the italian is like a half paragraph, quite a few lines of spanish and the rest in english. I suspect it is translated stuff in the wrong place.
<MrChrisDruif> Ghehe, don't trust google translate to give a proper estimate on which language is used
<MrChrisDruif> Everything from debuild -S is duplicate, the rest is seems Spanish to me
<BarkingFish> My room mate Marco says this is definitely italian :)
<BarkingFish> "Forse il modo piÃ¹ comune di costruire il pacchetto binario localmente Ã¨ farlo attraverso pbuilder dopo aver compilato il sorgente del pacchetto. Spostiamoci dentro la cartella principale in cui abbiamo estratto il codice (ad esempio ~/hello/hello-2.6) dove abbiamo costruito il codice del pacchetto usando debuild con l'opzione speciale: "
<MrChrisDruif> I dun really care ^_^
<BarkingFish> so we have got three in there, almost certainly :)
<MrChrisDruif> It begins with English, then it's Spanish, then it's an unfinished Italtian
<MrChrisDruif> I just looked at the raw text
<BarkingFish> yeah, so shouldn't they be on different pages?
<MrChrisDruif> "If you want to translate this page, please add a comment to your edit saying Translation update, so it's easier to see what changed. Check out PackagingGuide/Translation for more information on the translation effort."
<MrChrisDruif> It should probably be on a separate page...I'm just looking at the references page
<MrChrisDruif> Alright, I just looked at a page which supposedly has finished Italian and Spanish translations. Looks similar to the page you sent BarkingFish
<BarkingFish> ah, ok
<MrChrisDruif> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/PackagingGuide/Translation <= just look at this page
<MrChrisDruif> But maybe I've missed something in the explanation
<MrChrisDruif> I must have missed something somewhere
<MrChrisDruif> BarkingFish; I think that is a "source" file you've seen. It's the collection place for all translations. Only the right section is used in the corresponding WikiPage
<BarkingFish> I'm not sure how I got that then. I searched for the packaging guide, found the page and went to use it.
<MrChrisDruif> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/PackagingGuide/Howtos/ChangingTheOrigTarball > https://wiki.ubuntu.com/PackagingGuide/Basic#ChangingOrigTarball > <<Include(PackagingGuide/Howtos/ChangingTheOrigTarball, , from="StartEnglish", to="EndEnglish")>>
<MrChrisDruif> Then there might be something wrong with the page you got on, in other words the linking. How did you come on that page?
<BarkingFish> I went to the search function off the main page, typed in Packaging, went through the pages which were returned to find the guide I needed, and clicked on it
<jbicha> BarkingFish: you should probably try the new Packaging Guide at http://developer.ubuntu.com/resources/tools/packaging/
<BarkingFish> ok, another question arises from that then - why isn't that linked from the Wiki pages?
<jbicha> BarkingFish: it actually is, at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/PackagingGuide
<MrChrisDruif> http://developer.ubuntu.com/packaging/html/ ??
<BarkingFish> jbicha: then it should be linked from all the pages IN the packaging guide, so if I go to a specific one I need (or anyone else needs for that matter) the correct link for them to go to is displayed there.
<BarkingFish> I wouldn't know about a link on a page if I hadn't visited it :)
<jbicha> BarkingFish: of course, anyone could edit wiki.ubuntu.com and make it better ;)
<BarkingFish> This is why I posted here - I didn't know whether it was something that needed to be done by an administrator, whether I had permission to edit the wiki, or what. I don't want to be messing with stuff I don't understand :)
<jbicha> BarkingFish: a Launchpad/Ubuntu One account is all you need to change most things on the wiki, and we appreciate all the help!
<BarkingFish> well I have a launchpad account, and it doesn't work on the Ubuntu Wiki. I've tried it before.
<jbicha> could you try again?
<BarkingFish> sure
<BarkingFish> sorry, was busy elsewhere :)
<BarkingFish> Right - bear in mind I've emptied my cache today, less than an hour ago, and opened a new browser, AND not logged in to the wiki, this is what I get when I try:
<BarkingFish> OpenID error: Nonce already used or out of range.
<BarkingFish> you really need to change the word you use there too :)
<BarkingFish> Living in the UK, I can tell you that the word "Nonce" here has an alternative meaning, and I don't honestly know what it means on that error
<MrChrisDruif> Agreed
<jbicha> is that something the #launchpad guys would be able to help with?
#ubuntu-doc 2012-01-14
<gdbwiz> Hi all, I have just been through the task of getting samba on my home ubuntu machine acting as a server
<gdbwiz> the documentation does not mention anything about firewall permissions
<gdbwiz> I had to change the firewall to allow samba. just saying that it probably should be mentioned in the offical docs
<gdbwiz> anyone know how I can get this to right person so next time someone wont have the same problem as me
#ubuntu-doc 2014-01-06
<knome> slickymaster, the "wiki" team is basically people in the doc team anyway
<slickymaster> knome,  are you referring to the editors?
<knome> slickymaster, referring to the #ubuntu-wiki discussion
<slickymaster> I saw the mail on the DocumentationTemplate, but assumed that was meant just for the wiki editors and admins
<knome> that's a different discussion :)
<knome> but it was meant for everybody editing the wiki
<knome> because the templates are for everybody to use
<slickymaster> yes,
<knome> my comment was pointed at https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-doc/2014-January/018548.html
<slickymaster> ah :)
<slickymaster> knome, but I remember talking with elfy about it and I got the impression that was composed mostly by ubuntu forum mods and some contributors
<knome> it's possible it used to, though ultimately the team is/should be just a (non-separate) subteam of the docs team
<knome> consisting of everybody who is interested in the wiki
<slickymaster> yes and that is logical
<slickymaster> but it's been on stand by for while
<knome> it's been active lately ;)
<slickymaster> well, keeping in mind the idea of people in the doc team, yes, you're right
<knome> too much team structure is bleh anyway
<slickymaster> knome, but I got to say that the initial idea of migrating some threads from the forum to the wiki strikes me as really good
<belkinsa> Hey all, what's up?
<knome> yep, i guess that makes them more discoverable
<slickymaster> hi belkinsa, how were your holidays
<slickymaster> ?
<belkinsa> There were fine, yours?
<slickymaster> kind pf bumpy, but with health, thanks
<belkinsa> Not a problem.  And I know what you mean, I had a nasty burn out
<knome> i'm off, have fun belkinsa
<belkinsa> See you.
<slickymaster> I'm off to belkinsa
<slickymaster> cy tomorrow
<belkinsa> See you too
<belkinsa> Yup
<slickymaster> knome: ping
<knome> slickymaster, pong
<SaberX01> GM all .. after pulling the ubuntu-doc branch yesterday , I tied to use make status  and it's falling over, I can post the actual error if need be, but is this still used?
<SaberX01> I played around with different Grep one liners and got a list, but would nice to see the html out from make.
<SaberX01> like: grep -R 'status="review"/>' ./   and jsut change the review to help or whatever, then I used |wc -l to get a count on what was what on the status indicators.
<slickymaster> knome: you there?
<SaberX01_> Is this the best place to discuss ubuntu-docs or is it better to go though the mailing lists?
<shaunm> SaberX01_: probably ok to ask things here, but if you don't get a response, use the list
<SaberX01_> Ok, thanks, just had probelm with  .. make status .. not working
<shaunm> in the ubuntu-docs repository? I don't even see a status target in the Makefile
<SaberX01_> I was able to build all the files, but when reading through the editing / checking dos online, said to use make status to list the files current status, help, review  etc
<shaunm> that might be outdated info. where's that page?
<SaberX01_> Let me get it, net really slow at the moment.
<SaberX01_> shaunm, Bottom of this page: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/SystemDocumentation/Checking
<SaberX01_> the Tags are there cuz I can grep the tag status with: grep -R 'status="review"/>' ./
<shaunm> SaberX01_: which document are you looking at?
<SaberX01_> This one: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/SystemDocumentation/Checking
<shaunm> no, I mean on which document are you trying to run make status?
<shaunm> the ubuntu-help document in the ubuntu-docs repository?
<shaunm> this wiki page is all about docbook, and I think it's probably outdated (though maybe it's correct for some other document)
<SaberX01_> Oh, I'm not marking them up, was just looking for the files that had a status of "help" on them .. to see if there was any I could help out with. But with 370+ files, that's allot to look through for jsut the "help-wanted" files.
<SaberX01_> shaunm, Yes, this is system Documentation: lp:ubuntu-doc
<SaberX01_> I pulled the Repo .. and was lookign to start helping with it, reviewing, maybe a few edites etc.
<shaunm> you should probably just use the yelp-check command, from the yelp-tools package
<SaberX01_> ok .. I'm kinda new to the system docs stuff, so, I need to go read up on yelp-tools not used them before.
<SaberX01_> Is the Ubuntu dosumentation Page out of date then / needs updating ?
<shaunm> I can't really say for certain. the team maintains a few different documents, and that info might still be correct for some of them
<shaunm> (though in that case it should probably say so)
<shaunm> I just know mallard and upstream yelp stuff
<SaberX01_> ok, Im looking at yelp-tools now, did not see anything on the wiki about the tools. Mainly Im looking to spend calories, but where is the big sea of documents is the question :-)
<SaberX01_> shaunm, I just wanted to work on the 14.04 docs and thought I was following the right How-Too there.
<shaunm> somewhat useful: https://wiki.gnome.org/Apps/Yelp/Tools/yelp-check
<SaberX01_> ok, and 14.04 is all Mallard now yes?
<dsmythies> SaberX01_: I don't know about "make status", as I never use it. In the last cycle I didn't even know we were supposed to keep the status lines up to date.
<dsmythies> Why? becuase I came from the server guide and we don't worry about it there.
<dsmythies> We track status on a google page, I'll find the link in a minute...
<SaberX01_> yelp-check status does what I was after ..
<dsmythies> as for creating the html, please see the build wiki page. Link coming in a moment.
<dsmythies> Oh, and "Little Girl" was working on mkaing all the status pages up to date for the 14.04 cycle a month or two ago, but I forget how far she got.
<SaberX01_> dsmythies, Yeah, I got all fo the pages to build just fine, but was looking for pages to review, check or whatever, and had no idea where to start looking, so went to the wiki and found that .. make status ..
<dsmythies> Give me a moment to find the links.
<SaberX01_> dsmythies, I read a bit of what Little Girl put out, they using the Kubuntu Wiki Tasks for tracking.
<SaberX01_> at least for Kubuntu Sys Docs anyway.
<dsmythies> We are using this: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AsSw0cKYcffNdFlFakF5M0VjR002UEVvakVPZGpydHc
<dsmythies> for status tracking for 14.04
<dsmythies> for html see: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/SystemDocumentation/BuildingDocumentation
<SaberX01_> Who maintains the Spreadsheer?
<SaberX01_> Spreadsheet
<dsmythies> or even easier (for just english), see the build html area of: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/SystemDocumentation/UbuntuDesktopGuide
<dsmythies> We all maintain the spreadsheet
<SaberX01_> I'm not on the Commit list so, just needed to figure out a work-flow and where to start. The Yelp-Tools, if folks use the Status could be really helpful.
<SaberX01_> In any case, thanks for all the Info .. can start looking through things a bit further now.
<dsmythies> SaberX01_: We specially did the getting started page last cycle (previous link) to, hopefully, help people get going. There is also a serverguide version.
<dsmythies> at: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/SystemDocumentation/UbuntuServerGuide
<SaberX01_> Yes, I started on the server guide first, as Im more of a command-line user than desktop. went thought the mailing list, seems there making some changes there as well.
<slickymaster> knome, there's no need now. it was related with https://help.ubuntu.com/community/HybridGraphics and https://wiki.ubuntu.com/X/Config/HybridGraphics
<belkinsa> SaberX01_, welcome to the team, if you are new.
<knome> aha, oki
<slickymaster> knome, if I understood you correctly you're suggesting to merge the wiki page onto the documentation page, right?
<knome> no... i think the wiki.u.c page has its own merits as it is
<SaberX01_> belkinsa, thnx .. just getting a feel for things at the moment .. hope to be able to help out somewhere.
<knome> whether some of it should be moved to the community help wiki...
<belkinsa> Not a problem.  Make sure you join the list and introduce yourself.
<slickymaster> knome, are you think of placing a redirect link on it?
<knome> probably, but i'm pretty sure somebody wants to track/update exactly only what is on w.u.c
<knome> i was thinking just a normal link would probably do
<knome> if the content of the community help page seems to be in conflict with the w.u.c page, then that should be updated
<slickymaster> knome, that's my opinion also. That's the reason I pinged earlier this morning.
<shaunm> using mallard revision tags and yelp-check is really powerful
<slickymaster> knome, I'll reply my opinion in both mailing lists
<shaunm> but I'm extremely biased on that subject, so take what I say with a grain of salt
<knome> slickymaster, also looking at the background, seems like https://wiki.ubuntu.com/X/Config/HybridGraphics is used by the developers to track their work
<knome> slickymaster, so that's why i don't think we should poke that too much, or move it
<slickymaster> agreed
<knome> slickymaster, and copying that content over as it is... well if it changes, somebody has to make sure the content is up-to-date, and i don't want that kind of double maintaining effort
<slickymaster> that's also why I think that the link should be the best move here
<knome> exactly.
<SaberX01_> shaunm, I know Im new here, but a quick grep and pipe with yelp-tools status, and bingo, had a status list.
<dsmythies> SaberX01_: The google spread sheet is the master list, regardless of other info.
<SaberX01_> dsmythies, ok
<dsmythies> ... At least that is my understanding. (And as mentioned, I wasn't even updating the status lines last cycle.)
<SaberX01_> how often are commits made ?
<dsmythies> Commits are done as often as required. Anywhere from many per day, to none for many weeks.
<SaberX01_> I see, and for those of us that are not on the commiters list, we send the changes to the mailing list?
<dsmythies> You can (send to mailing list), but myself I hate that method, because it just tosses the burden to someone else. You should submit a merge proposal, as described in the getting started page (link(s) from earlier)
<SaberX01_> Ahh, yes, thats a much better way .. thnx
<dsmythies> SaberX01_: Are you on the ubuntu-doc mailing list? (Myself, I am somewhat IRC challenged and rarely on IRC)
<SaberX01_> dsmythies, yes, Im on the mailing list. Have not sent out any mails yet. But it's using my Launchpad account KI7MT
<SaberX01_> I should just use the one account KI7MT, that's where all my Ubuntu stuff is anyway.
<SaberX01_> or nick I should say .. I do not have any accounts with SaberX01
<SaberX01_> be back in a few.
<belkinsa> SaberX01_, beaware that you could start another one of these months of a flood of e-mails from on list just like I did a few months back.
<SaberX01_> belkinsa, I've been reading all of the November list mails. Allot of interesting things posted. I tried to follow the Server Guys Proposals, but I kinda got lots of the 7-To Do List :-)
<belkinsa> Cool.  I'm more of a wiki person, so there's some e-mails that I have ignored.
<belkinsa> We will get a prefix system going soon.
<KI7MT> belkinsa, Im back, prefix system for what?
<belkinsa> Hold on, lookinbg for that message
<dsmythies> I still have not caught up on the flurry of e-mail from dec 6th tti dec 16th
<dsmythies> I still have not caught up on the flurry of e-mail from dec 6th to dec 16th
<belkinsa> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-doc/2014-January/018546.html
<belkinsa> KI7MT, ^^^
<KI7MT> may as well add [ ask ] and [ help ] :-) ... I was gonna ask about all those also :-)
<belkinsa> Also, there is one e-mail that I didn't mean to send to the list.
<belkinsa> Yeah, those maybe needed and go ahead.
<KI7MT> I would think, as a minimum, [ server ] & [ desktop ]
<belkinsa> And [wiki]
<KI7MT> I dont have a clear understanding of the differences between wiki and help
<dsmythies> shaunm, are you still here?
<belkinsa> What was the help prefix for, in your mind?
<KI7MT> I was referring to wiki.ubuntu.com and help.ubuntu.com
<KI7MT> and what the intended use / purpose was / is.
<belkinsa> Oh.  Help is what we work on and the wiki is for teams to use.  This is where your LoCo team stuff is.
<belkinsa> Help is support
<belkinsa> Wiki is where the doc team's docs are is what I meant
<dsmythies> help.ubuntu.com is the official ubuntu documention
<KI7MT> Ok, so the Help, in an ideal world, should follow closely with the online published Desktop & Server guides yes ?
<belkinsa> Woah, woah!  Don't use documentation!
<belkinsa> Use Community Help Wiki.
<dsmythies> belkinsa, ??? help.ubutnu.com is exactly the online published Desktop & Server guides
<belkinsa> But there is other things on that wiki also.
<KI7MT> Here's the thing, I use this, allot: https://help.ubuntu.com/  .. both for personal and IRC support use, and often find, things need adding or updating.
<dsmythies> And it is NOT a wiki
<belkinsa> Oh, I can read.
 * belkinsa facepalms!
<belkinsa> I shouldn't be multitasking.
<dsmythies> KI7MT, Yes many many things need adding or updating
<belkinsa> ;)
<KI7MT> dsmythies, Yes, fare enough, not beating on that, what Im after is, should help.ubuntu.com match up with the Server & Desktop guides? In other words, if we edit / update one, should all three not get the updates?
<KI7MT> Or should thing like ...
<KI7MT> sshd-server only be in the server guide and links form Desktop & help to the server pages
<KI7MT> Reason I ask is, I found three different pages for OpenSSH Server Config ...
<dsmythies> help.ubtuntu.com is not updated very often. I have been the one doing it os recent, and I only do it later in the cycle for a prepliminary version and then again on the release date for the final version.
<KI7MT> In my mind, while one could have an an sshd on their desktop .. should the configuration of that server be in the server guides or help adn desktop too ?
<dsmythies> Good question, I don't really know, but earlier others were mentioning "double-maintaining", and we should strive for no double-maintaining.
<KI7MT> and what's drive that quesiton is, the untold numerb of folks that pop into #ubuntu wih questions. I really dont like to send someone asking about Ubuntu things, to a non-ubuntu site for info, but sometimes, allot of times, we have too.
<dsmythies> Myself, I am only familiar with the serverguide version of openssh-server.
<KI7MT> dsmythies, That's ok, fare enough, was jsut usign that as an example.
<KI7MT> Wherein the Desktop has many itmes exclusive to the DE, the server has many items that can cross over, figuring out where the docs should be, well that's kinda what I was tryign to get my head around.
<dsmythies> shaunm, are you still around?
<dsmythies> KI7MT, is that an amateur radio call sign? If yes, mine is VE7NP
<KI7MT> Yes, .. howdy neighbor :-)
<KI7MT> think I finally have this Nick/Clak thing figured out.
<KI7MT> Nick/Cloak
#ubuntu-doc 2014-01-07
<KI7MT> dsmythies, was just reading you comments on a proposed merge .. to review them, do you bzr branch the repo to review them or review online?
<dsmythies> KI7MT, What I do is best described by in the serverguide documentation commiters how to page, which I also use a little as a reference for desktop work.
<dsmythies> link: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/SystemDocumentation/Repository/Members-Serverguide
<dsmythies> there is also: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/SystemDocumentation/Repository/Members
<dsmythies> Furthermore, sometimes other opinions are desired and/or I need to be absolutley sure an eventual update to help.ubuntu.com will not break things, so I have almost a mirror copy of help.ubtunu.com
<dsmythies> on my test server.
<KI7MT> Ok will have a read there. My server is busying mirroring Trusty right now .. I was thinking about doing the same with help.ubuntu.com
<dsmythies> I do not publize that URL , but I will change that to my main server soon. I'll e-mail you the URL is you want.
<dsmythies> I do not publize that URL , but I will change that to my main server soon. I'll e-mail you the URL if you want.
<KI7MT> Ok, there's no hurry, I have a ton of things to read and get my head around at the moment. Was jsut curious of the workflow on commits.
<dsmythies> Note that help.ubuntu.com is an enormous bzr branch. Why? Because it contains all languages.
<KI7MT> I wish there was a way to filter that to a spcific Lang .. but not sure that can be done.
<dsmythies> If you just want English or one other language or whatever, then my suggestion is that you build it yourself rather than download the bzr branch...
<dsmythies> help.ubuntu.com is merely the two docs, desktop guide and serverguide, compiled as html (plus serverguide pdf) and put together with about 4 or 5 glue files...
<KI7MT> cd ..
<dsmythies> Of course, help.ubuntu.com is also several releases (13.10, 13.04, ...)
<belkinsa> Would the program Meld help with this or is this more for the wiki folks?
<KI7MT> whoops .. was in the wrong wind :-)
<dsmythies> belkinsa, I do not know.
<belkinsa> Okay, I was just wondering.
<dsmythies> KI7MT, earlier I assume you were looking at MP #200074. Did you notice the comment added by Gunner? If you use Ubuntu DekTop edition, it is probably a much easier way to check things, using yelp.
<dsmythies> link: https://code.launchpad.net/~gunnarhj/ubuntu-docs/addremove/+merge/200074
<KI7MT> Yes, that's where Im at, looking at the merge proposal, but how to you see just the changes he made?
<knome> KI7MT, scroll down or click the green text after "diff against target" (which scrolls down for you)
<KI7MT> Ahh got it, Diff Against target, that's what I was looking for, thanx
<dsmythies> KI7MT, sorry I thought you were wanting to oberve the final format...
<dsmythies> the colored diff is quite useful.
<shaunm> dsmythies: I'm around now
<dsmythies> shaunm, some time ago Matthew East suggested I contact you about some upstream yelp-tools issues. Also, I know you were working with Kevin Godby on some upsteam issues...
<dsmythies> after 13.10 was finished I entered 3 (I think it was) upsteam bug reports. One has been fixed, but I do not know if it is included in 14.04 yet...
<dsmythies> reference: https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=709951
<ubot2`> Gnome bug 709951 in yelp-build "yelp build ignores conditionals when creating file copy list" [Normal,Resolved: fixed]
<dsmythies> I need a moment to find the other links.
<dsmythies> there is also: https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=709943  but we currently have a good workaround for that one.
<ubot2`> Gnome bug 709943 in DocBook "yelp-xsl/xslt/common/html.xsl missing a fundamental docbook tag conversion" [Normal,Unconfirmed]
<dsmythies> and this one: https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=709958
<ubot2`> Gnome bug 709958 in yelp-build "yelp-note-advanced.png is wanted but is not there" [Normal,Unconfirmed]
<dsmythies> I was wondering: For the first one, how do I know when it is included in Ubuntu 14.04?; for the others (well, 709958 at least) is there any way to get some attention for them?
<dsmythies> shaumn, I have to be away from my desk for awhile.
<godbyk> dsmythies: I used this .page file originally to test the platform checks in Yelp: <http://kevin.godby.org/private/ubuntu-doc/platform-test.page>
<godbyk> dsmythies: Using yelp version 3.8.1 in Ubuntu 13.10, I get the following result: <http://kevin.godby.org/private/ubuntu-doc/platform-test.png>
<dsmythies> godby: O.K. thanks.
<godbyk> dsmythies: np
<dsmythies> shaunm: Thanks for looking at those bug reports and adding comments (although, not sure I understand the comment on 709943).
<shaunm> dsmythies: the comment on 709943 is mostly a reminder to myself on what caused the problem
<KI7MT_> shaunm, have you eve looked into an application called asciidoc http://asciidoc.org  ?
<KI7MT_> *ever
<shaunm> KI7MT_: a little bit. I know it has mallard support
<shaunm> haven't tried to author anything substantial in it
<KI7MT_> shaunm, I was thinking about putting something together for it. I've used it allot, and sure is easy for new folks to contrib simple test files.
<KI7MT_> *text
<shaunm> oh, actually, the program with mallard support is asciidoctor
<shaunm> which I think is maybe an alternative implementation? not sure
<KI7MT_> Yeah, that's a Ruby / Rails port of asciidoc
<dsmythies> shaunm: Thanks for the clarification.
<Kriti_> Hi everyone, I'm Kriti. I'm interested in contributing to FOSS but have no idea how to get started. Any help?
<belkinsa> Hey there, what skills do you have?
<belkinsa> Kriti_,: Do you have coding/developing skills, design skills, or documentation skills? You can also join your LoCo (local community) and they can help you either in IRC or on the mailing list.  Also, if you a woman, you can join #ubuntu-women and we can help you.
<belkinsa> And if you are non-English speaker, you can work on translating.
<belkinsa> One more thing: if you use another favour, you can work there also
<belkinsa> I hope that helps you, but if you still have questions, you can ask here.
<belkinsa> http://community.ubuntu.com/ is also a good guide that can help you, Kriti_.
<Kriti_> I am good at HTML, CSS, jQuery, Python, C++ and Ruby. Learning PHP and Rails presently. I have built webpages.
<Kriti_> Thank you for the guidance :)
<belkinsa> Not a problem.
<belkinsa> I don't know what you can with your skills, but I know that there could be wiki pages that could have what you worked with that could be updated.
<belkinsa> eagles0513875 ping
<eagles0513875> belkinsa: pong ding dong :P
<belkinsa> You work with building websites, right?
<eagles0513875> belkinsa: yes
<eagles0513875> whats up
<belkinsa> Could this skill be used within the Ubuntu community?
<eagles0513875> belkinsa: depends
<eagles0513875> are they using a CMS such as plone silverstripe etc
<belkinsa> Do you know the project and the team for that?
<eagles0513875> no sadly i do not
<eagles0513875> but let me finish my thought here
<belkinsa> Alright
<eagles0513875> i think whats lacking and it would involve collaboration with canonical themselves tbh to get the community to contribute to a website rewrite
<eagles0513875> and i dont think they would be very willing
<eagles0513875> i dunno anything is possible though
<eagles0513875> balloons: ping
<knome> Kriti_, let's put it this way: do you want to work with websites, or would something else scratch your itch?
<belkinsa> Well, the only thing that I can only think of is learning MoinMoin and help us clean up the wiki, Kriti_.
<eagles0513875> belkinsa: balloons or mhall119 might be able to help
<belkinsa> balloons and mhall119: ping
 * balloons floats in
<belkinsa> We have a new one that has website coding/building skills and want to get  involved in the FOSS/Ubuntu community? Do you have any suggestions?
<mhall119> hi belkinsa
<belkinsa> See what I said above your reply.
<balloons> I'll defer to mhall119 on this one.
<mhall119> belkinsa: what kind of web work did you want to do?
<belkinsa> It's not me, it's Kriti_.
<belkinsa> Kriti_, thanks for giving me an idea for something on community.ubuntu.com page.   Idea: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu-community-website/+bug/1266843
<ubot2> Launchpad bug 1266843 in Ubuntu Community Website "IDEA: User Stories of How They Got Involved" [Undecided,New]
<phillw> belkinsa: there are still some CSS issues accross wiki and help that could do with sorting. In many ways, they are a paper cut but it does need referring to RT with a ticket. (afaik, I got one accepted as fixed, but the other languished). It is for itallics / etc (the variations of emphasised text).
<belkinsa> I was trying to help someone but they left.
<phillw> belkinsa: me ready to pounce next time :D
<phillw> s/me/be
<phillw> not me... - you :D
<belkinsa> I see.
<belkinsa> I hope that they are working on how to get involved with the comminuty.
<phillw> I did some stuff on this, got some css corrected and accepted... and then the 'urgency' seemed to go. The errors are still there.
<KI7MT> GA All  ,, was reviewing a few things from the spreadsheet this afternoon on a fresh 14.04 VM. If we need top propose changes to a particular file, should we leave the Original Author information in tack or what is the appropriate way to handle?
#ubuntu-doc 2014-01-08
<KI7MT> Nevermind ^^^, found several examples of multiple authors / editors.
<phillw> KI7MT: I'm sure others here will complain, but the main argument I have? well, it's because it is a team and no one wants to make a decision, we muddle along, we do what we can; but we do really sure do need a 'Whoppi Goldeberg' in her cast of http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0105417/?ref_=nm_flmg_act_114 to put this and manual up....
<KI7MT> phillw, As th old saying goes, ( .. there is no "I" in "Team" ..) personally, I'd be ok with the the credits in each file merely stating Ubuntu Documentation Team  or something, but that's just me. At least with the current methodology, you can contact the previous author for any questions, which is a ++.
<dsmythies> shaunm: For this one: https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=709951  how does one determine when that upstream change is included in Ubuntu? ...
<ubot2> Gnome bug 709951 in yelp-build "yelp build ignores conditionals when creating file copy list" [Normal,Resolved: fixed]
<dsmythies> after loing a day due to VM 14.04 desktop issues (Grrr...), I fainlly got my VM Ubuntu desktop working this morning....
<dsmythies> I compiled ubuntu-docs, but still get the missinf file error messages, as per the bug report///
<dsmythies> I have:  yelp-tools 3.10.0-1 on my up to date 14.04 Ubuntu Desktop VM.
<dsmythies> "loing" meant to say "losing"
<godbyk> dsmythies: Per the yelp-tools git repository, that fix was committed just prior to version 3.11.1 being tagged: https://git.gnome.org/browse/yelp-tools/
<godbyk> dsmythies: The yelp-tools package in trusty is currently 3.10.0: http://packages.ubuntu.com/trusty/yelp-tools
<godbyk> So the fix hasn't made its way to Ubuntu yet.
<godbyk> dsmythies: It looks like it's still version 3.10.0 in Debian unstable, too. http://packages.debian.org/unstable/yelp-tools
<dsmythies> godby: Thanks very much.
<dsmythies> godbyk: Thanks very much.
<godbyk> dsmythies: No problem.
<godbyk> dsmythies: Unfortunately, I don't know much about the process of getting packages into Debian or from Debian to Ubuntu (or directly to Ubuntu, for that matter).
<godbyk> On the Debian package page, I see a list of maintainers on the right. Perhaps one of them can help get the updated yelp into Debian and then we can pester people on the Ubuntu side to pull it in to 14.04?
<dsmythies> godbyk: Re process: I don't know much either. Re debian upstream aminatiners: I'll think about asking them to get the updated yelp.
<dsmythies> shaunm: godbyk: Confirmed, this one is fixed: https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=709958
<ubot2> Gnome bug 709958 in yelp-build "yelp-note-advanced.png is wanted but is not there" [Normal,Resolved: fixed]
<godbyk> dsmythies: Ah, good.
<godbyk> dsmythies: I think the platform-detection bug is fixed now, too.
<godbyk> dsmythies: At least within the Yelp viewer and libyelp. I'm not sure if that fixed it for yelp-build, too, or not.
<dsmythies> godbyk: I normally compile on a 12.04 server, so needed to make my VM work to test 14.04, and that turned into a saga.
<godbyk> dsmythies: Ah, gotcha.
<godbyk> dsmythies: I did my testing under 13.10 at the time.
<dsmythies> godbyk: In the end I'll have to remember to use a 14.04 computer for the final compiles for help.ubuntu.com
<KI7MT> Hello all, can some point me to info regarding the usage of: <if:choose> <if:when test="platform:unity"> tags with Mallard?
<KI7MT> wow that didn't come out right ... lets try that again.
<KI7MT> I guess it did, on my screen, was all messed up, refresh fixed it :-)
<godbyk> Hi, KI7MT. Check out <http://projectmallard.org/if/1.0/index>.
<KI7MT> Thanks !
<dsmythies> shaunm: the other day, I fogot to ask about https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=709941
<ubot2> Gnome bug 709941 in yelp-build "html looks for yelp-code.png which is not there" [Normal,Unconfirmed]
<shaunm__> dsmythies: yeah, I'm tending towards getting rid of the code watermark images. I should just finish them off for good to fix bugs like that
<shaunm__> KI7MT: did you get the info you need on conditionals? the pages on projectmallard.org are a good reference, but not necessarily a good intro or tutorial.
<KI7MT> shaunm__, Yes I did, thanks. Yutorials would be nice though. I'm mainly after looking for conditionals for gnome-shell and untiy, but need to look at android as well.
<KI7MT> *Tutorials
<shaunm__> agreed. I've been meaning to add a tutorial about conditionals to projectmallard.org/about/learn/
<KI7MT> Are you the author of the whole Mallard deal ?
<KI7MT> I've not used it allot, but, it sure seems allot easier than standard DocBook
<KI7MT> shaunm__, I was mainly trying to understand why there would be an if:choose + if:when conditionals in a file, without a fall back to either say gnome-shell or andoid content.
<dsmythies> shaunm: Thanks for the reply. Yes, it would be my preference to just get rid of the code watermark image entirely. Note that is the 13.10 cycle, and as a workaround, I did experiement with making a fake yelp-code.png file with nothing but blank in it.
<dsmythies> KI7MT: Note that the only way to ever access the ubuntu-doc help files, the .page versions, via built in help is when running the default Ubuntu desktop...
<dsmythies> If you are running GNOME desktop it's "help" uses different files...
<KI7MT> dsmythies, Ok, so there's really no point to have the i:choose conditionals in the .page files then Yes?
<KI7MT> *if:chose
<dsmythies> Myself, I do not undertand why we even have the conditionals. However, I defer to godbyk and shaunm on this subject.
<KI7MT> dsmythies, well .. if you were to write one doc, that would cover say, gnome-shell + unity . and a launcher or something was different between them for a particular app, you could if:choose if:when one of then and if:else the other for the directions to launch or whatever.
<KI7MT> If however. ubuntu-doc is only for Unity, aka Ubuntu Desktop, then, I've not ran across a conditional need for it yet. Im still reading all the files though.
<dsmythies> KI7MT: ubuntu-doc uses a huge bunch of stuff from GNOME. Even though they end up in different places on your computer, one place for Unity help and another place for GNOME help, many files are identical, and so conditionals help (I suppose)...
<dsmythies> For example compare these two files: diff /usr/share/help/en_CA/ubuntu-help/display-dual-monitors.page /usr/share/help-langpack/en_CA/ubuntu-help/display-dual-monitors.page they are the same, but one if for unity help and one if for GNOME help.
<dsmythies> Note you might have a different language on your computer, not en_CA.
<dsmythies> Note 2: I have GNOME also installed on the same (virtual) computer as untiy.
<KI7MT> dsmythies, I just set up a workstation for 14.04 .. I've not installed gnome-shell yet, but will get to that today for sure.
<KI7MT> dsmythies, That's a pretty good example .. I guess it comes down to the topic being written as well as the application across both DE's.
#ubuntu-doc 2014-01-09
<shaunm__> dsmythies, KI7MT: I don't personally see much value in using conditionals for the desktop env in ubuntu-help (or gnome-help for that matter). as you point out, those documents are for their respective environments, and should just always reflect that
<shaunm__> it could be valuable if we had a common pool of pages that both teams considered to be upstream, but there's a lot of logistics in making that work
<shaunm__> conditionals for the desktop environment are very useful for app help, however
<KI7MT> shaunm__, Maybe I pulled the wrong repo then, I branched Lp:ubuntu-docs .. and that is where I ran into this initially. Is that not the correct repo for Ubuntu Desktop Sys Documentation ?
<shaunm__> that's correct, I think
<shaunm__> what I'm saying is, I think those conditionals were added to that document and to the gnome-help document early on, when conditionals were new and we were testing them and figuring out best practices
<shaunm__> and I think we've now moved away from using them in those specific documents, for good reasons, but you're seeing lingering conditionals that were just never removed
<KI7MT> Ok, well that will give me something work work on first then. I found it interesting to read up on though.
<KI7MT> Question:  how is the "More Information" and "See Also" being added to the bottom of the pages, say for instance on Add a new user account, More Information links to Manage user accounts?
<KI7MT> with respect to Ubuntu Sys Help Docs.
<shaunm__> KI7MT: "More Information" links are guide links. you get them when the page has <link type="guide"> in its info, *OR* when another page has <link type="topic"> to the page you're looking at
<shaunm__> "See Also" are seealso links. you get them when the page has <link type="seealso"> in its info, *OR* when another page has <link type="seealso"> to the page you're looking at
<shaunm__> the important thing to realize here is that most types of links declared in the info element automatically go in both directions in some way or another
<dsmythies> KI7MT: Re: conditionals: See this thread: <https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-doc/2013-September/017658.html> 4 e-mails total.
<dsmythies> sorry, 5 e-mails total, including the one from Jeremy that the system doesn't realize is the same thread.
<KI7MT> dsmythies, thanks. having a crack at updating online-accounts. It seems the interface has changed quite allot in 3.10.2. Is the best way to send out a proposed set of changes a bundle package via e-mail or send up a merge ppa ?proposed merge?
<dsmythies> It is just my opinion, but I think merge proposal is best.
<KI7MT> dsmythies, Ok, thanks. These e-mails are exactly what I ran into .. Not read all the way through yet.
<KI7MT> shaunm__, thanks for the info on Links.  I need to play with that a bit, and see what the results are with different tags.
<KI7MT> GM all .. quick question on Sys Docs. I see that in some .page files (files-tilde.page for ecample), legal.xml is included in the <info> section, while others it is not. When should we be adding this to our .page files?
<dsmythies> KI7MT: Do you have an example file name that does NOT have the legal.xml line? In the end, there should be a legal link in the footer of every page, but give me some time to catch up.
<KI7MT> dsmythies, good morning. Sure, a look at accounts-create.page .. that is the app I am working on now.
<dsmythies> KI7MT: I do not know the answer. Before I suspect I was confusing legal.xml with the legal.html that is linked, via the .css for the html versions of stuff. The built in help doesn't have the legal link.
<dsmythies> I suspect the legal.xml line should be in every file, but that is just a guess and should not be considered an authoritative answer.
<KI7MT> This legal.xml covers Creative Commons .. Where as the other Legal Notice, on the applicaiton itsself..
<KI7MT> Is the wording for Ubuntu and Canonical's Legal Notice stuff.
<KI7MT> I don't see a reason why we would NOT want Creative Commons each file.
<dsmythies> legal.html is not part of ubuntu-docs. It is common for both the serverguide and ubuntu-docs and all releases and is one of about 5 glue files that pull it all together on help.ubuntu.com. see the very last few lines of the spreadsheet.
<KI7MT> It's interesting, that when I pull up the Legal Notice, using the link on Online Accounts App. The Heading under About is "License" and using the legal.xml the heading is Creative Commons,.
<KI7MT> dsmythies, Yes I saw the files on the Spreadsheet. Im now wondering if we should edit legal.xml to match the working displayed under License from legal.html
<KI7MT> legal.html displays as; License: Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike 3.0 (with not link) and legal.xml displays as; Creative Commons: This work is licensed under the Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike 3.0 Unported License (with the link).
<KI7MT> I know this is splitting hair's, but it jsut looks different. Says the same thing though.
<KI7MT> dsmythies, Where is the source file located for legal.html ?
<KI7MT> I found it: /usr/share/help/C/web-credentials
<dsmythies> Legal.html is 1 of about 5 files where the master file is in the launchpad branch for help.ubtuntu.com. The rest of the files in that branch are NOT master files, but rather slave files with the master files in the launchpad branches that we are working on now.
<dsmythies> see: http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-core-doc/ubuntu-docs/help.ubuntu.com/view/head:/index.html
<dsmythies> Sorry, see: http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-core-doc/ubuntu-docs/help.ubuntu.com/view/head:/legal.html
<KI7MT> dsmythies, I fibured it out, in the .page.stubs pages it is a <license> tag, not an <include href .. .. .  thus, one pages renders with just text, and legal.xml renders with the href.
<KI7MT> *figured.
<KI7MT> So if we want the Link version, we need to include legal.xml, and if we want just the workding, no link, Legal Commons ShareAlike 3.0  .. we add the <license> tag.
<KI7MT> So, question becomes, do we want the href link in the About section to read as legal.xml lays out, or simply add: <license> Creative Commons ShareAlike 3.0</license>  tag.
<KI7MT> If you open open up the Online Accounts APP, and click the the Legal Notice Link on the GUI, you can see the <license> tag version.
<dsmythies> KI7MT: I don't know. Perhaps someone else will chime in with an opinion.
<KI7MT> dsmythies, I think, If the final verdict is we want the link included, we need to add some CSS to tidy it up a bit. I can have a play with that.
<KI7MT> dsmythies, Simple work-around: <license> <link href .. Creative Commons .. .. ..</link></licesne> .. That puts it under About: License, and adds the CC link.
<KI7MT> And looks nice alongside Written By - Edited By.
<KI7MT> dsmythies, I should probably send this idea to the mailing list, but legal.xml as the name probably not the best choice. Maybe copywrite.xml or license.xml  or something, as this merely referrs to the copywrite of the written material.
<KI7MT> Question. Regarding yelp-build & images/icon locations:  If we use a system Icons from /usr/share/icons .. .. should we add those icons to /ubuntu-docs/html/img ?   ... when I use that ref location, I'm getting file-not-found errors on the html page, but using the system location /usr/share .. .. all is well.
<dsmythies> KI7MT: No. There are bug reports, on this issue. They are either fixed and the new yelp-build hasn't made its way to Ubuntu yet, or the fix is still pending. See the upstream links (4 total, I think) listed in these IRC logs in the last 2 or 3 days.
<KI7MT> dsmythies, ok, I'll go look at the bugs, but for future reference, is the proper location ./ubuntu-docs/html/icons  .. ?
<KI7MT> sorry ./ubuntu-docs/html/img  .. no icons
<dsmythies> KI7MT: Actually, I think you would add an icon to ./ubuntu-docs/ubuntu-help/C/figures. And note that doing so would requre an edit to ./ubuntu-docs/ubuntu-help/Makefile.am
<dsmythies> Ki7MT: see http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-core-doc/ubuntu-docs/trusty/revision/240
<KI7MT> dsmythies, Ahh ok .. Im definately not a Makefile guru, but maybe it's time to get into that as well.
<KI7MT> Or, simply don't use an Icon :-0
<dsmythies> KI7MT: and http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-core-doc/ubuntu-docs/trusty/revision/316
<dsmythies> KI7MT: Yes, avoid new icons.
<KI7MT> dsmythies, actually, that Makefile is not so bad :-) .. a couple of other projects I work on for docs, the Makefiles are well, they make my head spin. This one is pretty straight forward.
<KI7MT> dsmythies, Actually, that was really good info, becasue if we wanted to propose a new series help files, or change some names of existing ones, it's good to know we need to update the Makefile as well with a proposed merg.
<KI7MT> dsmythies, the file that does make my head hurt though, is the ubuntu-help.pot file .. that thing is a beast ! :-)
<KI7MT> surely that file is generated not manually coded right ?
<dsmythies> KI7MT: Makefile.am: Yes trivial. Others, Yes complicated.
<dsmythies> KI7MT: .pot file: Do not look at it. There is no need. Yes, it is a compiled file and is related to translations. Then why is it there, isn't it like folding downstream work back into upstream work? Yes, I find the workflow a little odd in this respect.
<dsmythies> the .pot file file be updated just at documentation string freeze, in preparation for the translators to start.
<KI7MT> dsmythies, I know very little about .pot files, that stuff is like black-magic to me.
<KI7MT> dsmythies, do we have a list anywhere of page:  type="abc" style="xyz"   ?
<KI7MT> dsmythies, found you bugs on bugs.gnome.org for yelp-tools
<KI7MT> *your
<dsmythies> KI7MT: re list: Not that I am aware of. Note: I have never thought about that line at all.
<dsmythies> KI7MT: I think I misdirected you to the bug reports. A potential new icon is a different story, which I think we covered now.
<KI7MT> dsmythies, Im new at this type of documentation , and Mallard, so I'm just going through each element and trying to understand how it works and the proper usage.
<KI7MT> dsmythies, re, icons, yes, thing I ahve that one under control.
<KI7MT> *think
<dsmythies> KI7MT: I'm fairly new to mallard myself. I came from the serverguide which is docbook, and still do more work there than on ubuntu-docs.
<KI7MT> dsmythies, Yeah, I was working the ubuntu-maual for a while, trying to get my head around LaTeX  .. then, yes, DocBook, which I need to work allot more on, and now Mallard .. I wish all the docs would go to one setup woudl make like allot easier.
<KI7MT> *make life
<KI7MT> dsmythies, do you use the bughelper cli tools?
<KI7MT> Found another block that's baffling me, <desc> block. Some pages simple have a one line plain test description, others are putting xref's to related pages.
<KI7MT> *simply have
<dsmythies> KI7MT: bughelper tools: No, never heard of them.
<KI7MT> dsmythies, link from ubuntu bug squat launchpad: https://launchpad.net/bughelper-data
<dsmythies> KI7MT: <desc>: I do not understand what is baffling you. Sometimes it is desired to have a link in the text in the <desc> block, somtimes not. Look at the next level up from the actual .page file...
<dsmythies> for example for tips.page look at index.page ...
<dsmythies> and you will see the <desc> block there, with the link.
<dsmythies> Note: when I said "look", I meant in the unity help. i.e. the finished prodcut.
<KI7MT> dsmythies, Ahh ok, that's makes sense.  I was confused over where the block should reside in the .page file. Some have been inside of <info> block and others outside.
<KI7MT> dsmythies, well had my first 14.04 crash .. Nautilus went nutty bonkers upon Browse then open with Gedit :-)
<dsmythies> KI7MT: Two days ago my 14.04 dekstop VM, hosted on a 12.04 server, just wouldn't work at all. Then yesterday, there was a new kernel and now it works, more or less. I do have grief with my VM's sometimes.
<KI7MT> dsmythies, I installed form an ISO, about ohh a week or so ago. That's the first real issue I've had. I do updates constantly though.
<KI7MT> dsmythies, my current Kernel is 3.13.0.1 Generic, x86_64
<KI7MT> I did see a Gnome package, can't recall whihc now, that had a pkgversion of 0.0.0 :-)
<dsmythies> KI7MT: mine also: Linux doug-desktop 3.13.0-1-generic #16-Ubuntu SMP Tue Jan 7 19:44:06 UTC 2014 x86_64 x86_64 x86_64 GNU/Linux
<KI7MT> dsmythies, So do you run a headless server with Desk VM ?
<dsmythies> KI7MT: Mostly yes. I do sometimes have a cosnole attached, sometimes not. I also run 32 bit 14.04 server VM, mainly so that I can compile the kernel for my i386 server minimum requirements test computer, as it is not able to compile the kernel. I also have a 64 bit 14.04 VM
<KI7MT> dsmythies, Toward the final release, I want to set that up as well, headless 14.04 server and run Desktop VM's from it.
<dsmythies> I resisted getting into VM for a very long time, but now do not know how to live without them. That being said, there is some often odd stuff with my VNC connections. When things break, it seems that emormous amounts of time is wasted trying to figure it out.
<KI7MT> yes, understand. I do allot of ISO install and desktop app testing, VM is the only way to go.
<KI7MT> I'd like to learn more about LXC and the could stuff, just dont have enough HW for it.
<KI7MT> *cloud
<KI7MT> dsmythies, well .. 4 files down, another 4 to go :-)
#ubuntu-doc 2014-01-10
<KI7MT> dsmythies, Question, I ran across a file that has <credit type="author copyright">  .. I thought all contributed Ubuntu Sys Docs were under Creative Commons Lic. Yes?
<KI7MT> dsmythies, Actually, there's 125 files that have that tag.
<KI7MT> dsmythies, there are 44  of 353 in gnome-help
<dsmythies> KI7MT: <credit : I don't know, and defer to anyone else that knows the history
<KI7MT> Same author, same set of files <app>, did NOT author copyright his other file ..interesting.
<dsmythies> KI7MT: 4 files of 8: Consider to submit a Merge Proposal. Just in case. Also, MPs in smallish chunks is sometimes easier to deal with conflicts or whatever issue might arise.
<dsmythies> KI7MT: you certainly are thorough.
<KI7MT> Understand, overall the changes are pretty small, mostly contest .. one fule had to re-wrok the steps due to the app changing, but it's pretty easy.
<KI7MT> *context.
<KI7MT> dsmythies, thorough .. I dont like re-work .. :-)  so id' rather spend the time and do it once
<KI7MT> Not to mention, had to learn a fare bit about Mallard to start with :-)
<dsmythies> KI7MT: Understood.
<KI7MT> dsmythies, All 8 done .. they all yelp-checked ok, and html looks good.
<KI7MT> dsmythies, Well, I sent the merge proposal, we shall see how the first one goes :-)
<KI7MT> dsmythies, When you in tomorrow, after the merge, I had some navigaton issues, I've resolved them, sent a email to list but it's held for some reason, anyway, will address the patch tomorrow.
<shaunm__> KI7MT: note that you can also ask questions on the mallard mailing list if you're stumped on something
<shaunm__> http://projectmallard.org/about/contact
<shaunm__> (I'm also happy to answer questions on irc if I'm around)
<KI7MT> shaunm__  GM, the problem I had was my own really, I didn't pay attention to the xref refs file and it was adding things where I didn't want them. I think in the long run we need put together a few wiki pages that show examples showing usage specific to the System Help.
<dsmythies> KI7MT: When do you sleep?
<dsmythies> KI7MT: I need some time to catch up. I am just downloading and building docs now.
<KI7MT> dsmythies, I don't require allot really :-)
<KI7MT> dsmythies, I tried to build the desktop using the wiki .. ./configure && make all && make install .. did not work at all. Maybe that's for the DocBook method ? In any case, used yelp-build html  -o html-out . and it put them all in a folder for me.
<KI7MT> That's when I caught the error I made with the links, as it was not present building individual files.
<KI7MT> So I just been spending the morning wiht my head stuck in Mallard documentation :-)
<KI7MT> dsmythies, Oh, an put if for the bug squad, and hg approved me the morning, so I can work the bugs a bit more efficiently. Gonna join the 5-A-Day group again, and Hug 5 bugs a day .. lol ..
<dsmythies> KI7MT: Which wiki page? If https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/SystemDocumentation/BuildingDocumentation , that is the page I follow exactly.
<KI7MT> I always got a kick out of the term Hug-A-Bug ... that's catchy phrase :-)
<KI7MT> dsmythies, Yes, think that's it let me go looky.
<dsmythies> KI7MT: I have an issue with the "5-A-Day" concept. There was one bug that I worked on for 6 months.
<KI7MT> dsmythies, No, that's not the page I was on .. wow, wonder how I got off on some other page like that.
<KI7MT> dsmythies, Well, I look at 5-A-Day as read or do something with 5-A-Day .. not necessarily fix five a day :-)
<dsmythies> KI7MT: There are also brief how to build notes, probably good enough for most, on the getting started page. https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/SystemDocumentation/UbuntuDesktopGuide
<KI7MT> dsmythies, Found its .. under Checking TAB .. thats where I got the make all from.
<KI7MT> dsmythies, Thats wehre I went second, INSTALL file in base DIR, that's the standard ./configure .. .. .. ..
<KI7MT> That produced nothing but a load of errors.
<KI7MT> dsmythies, I should have been using the Build TAB. would ahve saved myself allot of headache.
<KI7MT> dsmythies, One good thing came from it though, found several files that have hard links to system Icons, and they should have :-)
<KI7MT> they should be using figures/icon-name.png or whatever they need.
<dsmythies> KI7MT: files with hard links: I suspect, but without an example name, am not sure, those are the files that are subjects of the existing bug reports referred to yesterday.
<dsmythies> KI7MT: Checking TAB: yes, I think is a lingering reference to docbook method. Needs to be fixed.
<KI7MT> dsmythies, ubuntu-menubar-intro.page  ..  couple hard links to system icon folder
<dsmythies> KI7MT: Oh. Good catch. If I go to https://help.ubuntu.com/13.10/ubuntu-help/unity-menubar-intro.html I see the issue.
<KI7MT> dsmythies, also check display-dual-monitors.page file .. look for display-dual-monitors.webm  .. that's a probably a typo on the image name, need to check Makefile.am
<dsmythies> KI7MT: display-dual-monitors.webm: That one is definately due to one of the bugs and conditionals. The file name is correct.
<KI7MT> Nope, the image is not in ./figures  ,, and its not in Makefile.am either
<dsmythies> Ki7MT: It is not supposed to be there. It is a GNOME help file and not an Ubuntu-docs help file.
<KI7MT> Im wondering, need to read more, but I wonder if we can make a Library file, with vars, point to the needed system Icons, not the custom images that are needed, just the Icons .. if that resolve some of the icon problems.
<KI7MT> Or, a more simple soluiton, as this is system SW, use the system icons .. just ln -s /some-path/some-image.svg ./figures
<KI7MT> That wont work for custom screen captures or anything, but simply icons, dont see what not.
<dsmythies> KI7MT: Myself, I don't think you can do that. Why? Because in the end the HTML must stand on its own and must not assume that /some-path/some-image.svg is present. Indeed, on a server it might not be.
<KI7MT> True, if your linking to a file, you need to be sure it's going to be there.
<KI7MT> But, the generated HTML files aren't stand along, I can't take them off the system and have them work, they are still linked to the /figures  and /img folders.
<KI7MT> getting the same errors with the Building TAB as I did with yelp-build .. there's a couple failes with issues, and im also getting a DEPRECATION WARNING about http://projectmallard.org/ui/1.0/ui_expanded.html
<KI7MT> *couple of files
<KI7MT> but .. I have a build folder with html files in it :-)
<KI7MT> Somethign else too .. yelp-builds are Blue Themes, using the Building TAB method, it's the traditional Orange we'd expect.
<KI7MT> One thing is missing, using yelp-build, I get ab "About" link on the bottom of each page, with the Building TAB method, no "About" links at all.
<dsmythies> KI7MT: Stand alone: Yes, I meant including the /figures and /img subdirectories.
<dsmythies> KI7MT: DEPRECATION WARNING(s): Yes, I observed them also, but haven't had a chance to look into it yet.
<dsmythies> KI7MT: Blue Vs. Orange Theme: I never deviate from using the build TAB method, so have no knowledge of what you are saying.
<dsmythies> KI7MT: ABOUT link: I have never seen it in the html, including going back to before my time.
<KI7MT> dsmythies, just for grins, cd to ./ubuntu-help/C/   then:    mkdir ./html && yelp-build html -o html .
<KI7MT> then firefox or chromium ./html/index.html
<KI7MT> the ABout link is there when you build with yelp-build
<dsmythies> KI7MT: Yes, but ylep-build for ubuntu-docs needs to be told to use ubuntu.xsl. see the yelp-build command in ./html/Makefile.
<KI7MT> Ok, so without specifying the whihc xsl .. it's uses it's own .. man, wish I would have known that yesterday.
<KI7MT> dsmythies, Sure enough .. UBUNTUXSL=ubuntu.xsl   .. bugger !!
<KI7MT> dsmythies, what email client do you use?
<dsmythies> KI7MT: email client: I refuse to answer that question on the grounds that it might embarrass me. (Microsoft Outlook from MS Office 2007)
<KI7MT> LOL .. no worries, was uing Thunderbird and Im having trouble wiht the address book on the To: Cc: lines etc. I can't seem to add more than one ID without it being RED.
<KI7MT> Is this correct for us in Docs -->   ubuntu-docs: ubuntu-doc@lists.ubuntu.com  <-- Need to send a bug fix bundle.
<dsmythies> KI7MT: email address: Yes. And I guess you must have figured it out, because I see an e-mail in my docs folder.
<KI7MT> dsmythies, I just tried to submit a fix using bzr bundle > file-name-txt and it also included fixes form accounts stuff I was working on, any idea why that happened?
<dsmythies> No Idea. I have never used "bzr bundle". I have also never successfully applied a patch automatically before, but my experience is more with git and the kernel directly from kernel.org
<KI7MT> dsmythies, I think I figured it out. brought down a branch ..did local commits, but we can't push commits back to the server.  Other than pulling a new branch each time after a fix, I don't know how else we can use bzr as most of us are not in the commiters group.
<dsmythies> KI7MT: Others know much much more than I. The best way for your local commits to get back to the master code is via a Merge Proposal. Since you have an outstanding Merge Proposal, you could have just revised it. But yes, sometimes I mess up and have to just get a new branch. If my local copy gets out of date, but otherwise has no local chnages, I use "bzr pull" to re-sync with the master code.
<KI7MT> dsmythies, Maybe I should do a pull each time before working on any fixes, but Im not sure how that would an outstanding MP's I have.
<dsmythies> KI7MT: Yes, you could easily get into a conflict situation, where bzr doesn't know what to do, if you are edting the same files again. Such a situation adds burden to the Documentation Committers.
<KI7MT> dsmythies, I jsut sent a email to the group, this really frustrating, a one line fix causing all this mess.
<KI7MT> Maybe I should stick to working on the Wiki / Help pages :)
<KI7MT> dsmythies, Im back .. we had a power outage.
<dsmythies> KI7MT: re: unity-menubar-intro.page from earlier: I made a mistake. The html is O.K. The required files are in the img subdirectory in this case.
<dsmythies> KI7MT: re: frustration and maybe staying with Wiki and Help pages instead: Yes, sometimes it can be very frsutrating. However, please stay, we could sure use the help.
<KI7MT> dsmythies, I not leaving, I don't give up that easily :)  .. it just annoyed me that a simple one-liner turned into a mess.
<dsmythies> KI7MT: I hear you.
<KI7MT> dsmythies, re unity file.. I didn't really dig into it, was just comparing the errors from yelp and manual build
<dsmythies> Ki7MT: BY the way, I haven't even built the docs with your MP included yet. Had other stuff to do.
<KI7MT> dsmythies, Are you  like to only one porting server docs ? I pulled the repo and there looks to be allot of work there.
<dsmythies> KI7MT: I had a pretty thorough look at everything in the final stages of 13.10 and had confidence that we had bug reports for whatever wasn't just so.
<dsmythies> KI7MT: Peter Matulis is also very involved in server docs. But yes, there is a ton of work. In any given cycle we complete maybe 15% of what needs to be done.
<KI7MT> dsmythies, jump in there, but DocBook really is not my thing.
<KI7MT> dsmythies, truth be told, I'm much better with the servers than desktop.
<KI7MT> dsmythies, ment to say, I would jump in there but .. .. ..
<KI7MT> dsmythies, Whats the different between the Bug Squad and Bug Control teams ?
<dsmythies> KI7MT: Bug Squad Vs. Bug Control: I do not know.
<dsmythies> KI7MT: Others complain about DocBook also, and say that is why they don't step up to help. Peter was looking into something else, but we seem to be stuck trying to estimate the related translations workflow changes.
<KI7MT> dsmythies, I just read up on Bug Squad it's part of UB-QA, and Bug Control is a sub-set if Bug-Squad, but But Control can change status and all that. Basically, Bug Sqaud folks are noobs like me, and the Bug COntrol folks are the veterans.
<KI7MT> dsmythies, I'm kinda of lost as to what I should do now, archive my current ubuntu-doc and pull a new one or what.
<KI7MT> Maybe I'll go pester the folks in Launchpad, maybe they can shed come light on what I did wrong.
<dsmythies> KI7MT: Please give me some time to catch up. I suspect that all you needed to do earlier was revise your MP instead of "bundle" or whatever. However, by all means go to Launchpad folks, they know much better than I.
<KI7MT> dsmythies, No worries at all .. just trying to figure out where I messed up. the LP guys are saying prob not good idea to use bzr bundle
<KI7MT> dsmythies, I got the fix, it was my fault  .. I should have pulled the 326 bran from LP before creating the bug fix.
<KI7MT> Now the challenge of un-doing what I did .. LOL
<KI7MT> dsmythies, Ok, I removed the attachment on the bug fix, now I have to pull 325 again, and create the fix there, and submit from that branch-pull
<dsmythies> KI7MT: ... which might then conflict with your existing branch 326 proposed. Myself, I would either wait for us doc committers to catch up or just revise your MP. Or you can just cancel your MP and start again. Let me know, becuase I am trying to understand and follow your MP right now.
<KI7MT> dsmythies, The way I understand it, I have to keep, my current pending MP separate from any other pulls. So to work on anything else at the moment, I have to pull a new bbranch from LP, which is 325 .. then work the bug fix.
<KI7MT> dsmythies, The MP is fiarly straight forward, I had to remove some xrfs that was causing double header navigatoin issues, then while I was there editing, I made a couple small text edits, and added two seealso xrfs. I added
 * knome is lurking
<dsmythies> Well ya, but your system was already at your MP for rev 326 as of your submission, so you just continue from there.
<KI7MT> ge knome
<KI7MT> dsmythies, No, my branch was at 325 when I sent the second MP to fix the navigation issues, it went up to r327 when I did the lp:bug-fix after posting the second MP
<dsmythies> KI7MT: That doesn't make sense. Look at your MP, it says rev 326.
<KI7MT> so where I screwed up was, I had a pending MP #326, and I did a bug fix from the same source tree, and the commit for the lp:bug-fix took that source tree to #327 .. which I have since reverted to #326.
<KI7MT> #325 was my first MP .. that was merged last night.
<dsmythies> Yes, I know.
<KI7MT> and #326 I sent up this morning, that was to fix the Nav issues.
<KI7MT> and #327 was where I screwed up, and sent a bug-fix from the MP source tree #326.
<dsmythies> Yes I know. So if you are now working on a different issue on other files, then yes start from the master code at rev 325.
<KI7MT> Yes, that's what I should have done today for that onle line bug fix, that's where I screwed up.
<dsmythies> O.K., finally I am with you. sorry for being so thick.
<KI7MT> Hey, Im the one that caused all the problem, note you mate :-)
<KI7MT> *not
<KI7MT> so what I've done to rectify the bug-fix malfunction. I've issued a bzr revert -r 326 to the one source tree, adn I'ed deleted the files form the Bug I was trying to fix.  Now, I need to pull 325, work the bug-fix, and send another MP
<KI7MT> *deleted the file from the LP bug .. .. .
<KI7MT> So the lesson learned here is, fix several bugs at once on one branch pull :-)
#ubuntu-doc 2014-01-11
<knome> since i had the opportunity, went ahead and updated the icon/badge for https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-doc - new one is this nice and crisp one: https://launchpadlibrarian.net/162165522/ubuntu-doc.png
<knome> old one for reference: https://launchpadlibrarian.net/1050489/images.jpg
<KI7MT> that's much better !
<knome> yep
<KI7MT> Im doing a bit of RTFM on bzr branches .. lol
<knome> poke me if in doubt
<knome> basically, what you need to do if you want to make changes, is:
<phillw> KI7MT:  knome now I know my eye sight is no no longer 20:20.... but they are two really small icons?
<knome> 'bzr branch lp:branchname' (or 'bzr pull' if you have already branched)
<knome> then do your changes
<knome> 'bzr add .'
<knome> 'bzr push lp:branchname'
<knome> in the push, you'll want to push under lp:~lpnick/originalbranchname/my-fixes (replace my-fixes with something appropriate)
<KI7MT> well, I don't want to have a repeat of the mistake I made today .. I have an MP pending, and I went on and worked another bug (form the same source tree), and tried to send that up with bzr bundle > test.file .. I've been told, I needed to pull another branch down and work it form there.
<knome> phillw, yep.
<knome> i don't know how bundle is supposed to work
<knome> you could've just updated your branch as if you were working with a normal/trunk/main branch
<knome> (that is, just push to the same location again)
<KI7MT> Im not gonna use it again, just MP form no on.
<KI7MT> *from now on
<knome> (in that case i think you'd need to do the merge proposal again)
<knome> merge proposals are good
<KI7MT> I think for the setup we have, with only a few commiters, thats the best route
<knome> i don't know too much about ubuntu docs, but if you have some minor grammar edits only, i could be able to review and merge those
<KI7MT> so, now all I should have to do is create a new dir for the new bull and work from there yes? like mkdir ./{r325,r326,r327} yes? then do a bran into each one for seperate MP's ?
<knome> i'm not sure i'm following on what you mean with the new directory
<phillw> knome: and KI7MT please do go ahead!... My time is currently spent on a non-pae kernel for all to use :)
<KI7MT> well I sent MP 326 today .. and want to work other bugs .. I can't work the bugs form the 326 source right ?
<KI7MT> or at least until it's merged .. then I could I suppose.
<knome> KI7MT, you can; as i said, you can stack the changes on the same branch
<KI7MT> This is why I was reading the docs, cuz today, I sent the MP, and then worked an LP bug from the same source, and them messed things up .. the guy in launchpad said I need a new branch as you can on have one pair at a time per branch.
<KI7MT> or in other words, I can't have more than 1 MP pending form the same source tree.
<KI7MT> *from
<knome> that's right
<knome> i don't know how other people want to review merge proposals...
<knome> but you could update your branch and just mention the new things in the same merge proposal
<knome> and it's correct: you can only have one merge proposal from one branch, nothing else would make sense
<knome> stacking changes to one branch is fine IMO, as long as they aren't huge changes
<knome> LP allows seeing useful diffs anyway
<KI7MT> so your saying, work 3 or 4 bugs, all unrelated, and send that as MP
<KI7MT> as long as it's not like rewriting have the book.
<knome> yes, i would say so
<knome> depends a bit *how* unrelated they are too
<knome> but as long as it feels possible that one person can review the changes...
<knome> if you're changing, say, server docs and xubuntu docs (isn't possible because they are in different branches, but let's play a mindgame), it would be highly likely there isn't anybody who can review both changes
<KI7MT> well to be fare, most  of the bugs are simple text edits, some require writing a new page, but form what I've seen, not many of those.
<KI7MT> what Im doing right now is all in ubuntu-docs
<knome> but if you are changing two things that both only require basic knowledge of the ubuntu desktop... yes, please go ahead
<KI7MT> ok
<knome> reviewing 3+ small requests and merging takes usually more time than reviewing one slightly bigger and merging that
<knome> just use common sense
<knome> and; do what you think is fair
<knome> if you think you have two bugs that are completely unrelated and are not sure if you can do one merge request; do two
<KI7MT> That's why I was keeping the MP I just did all together, was all related to Online Accounts.
<KI7MT> where the bug fix was something completely unrelated, so i was going to send that separately and that's where I got all jammed up.
<knome> that's fine
<knome> for that, you need a new branch
<KI7MT> I'm not disk space limited, so I don't mind having multiple copies of the source tree to make things easier on the other end.
<knome> i guess you are saving some headache if you branch from the main branch again
<knome> both ways are possible though
<KI7MT> I think its clean for those that have to review it.
<knome> yep
<knome> if you start to do a lot of merge reviews, you should at some point probably apply for -committers as well.
<KI7MT> Maybe someday . I'd be happy just to get some things fixed for now, and learn as I go.
<knome> yep
<knome> do what scratches your itch :)
<KI7MT> Indeed
<KI7MT> So now I gotta pull 325 again, and do the patch for LP1222288 again :-), but form a new branch pull this time. .. All this was over a one line change in a file :-).. it's taken me all day to get it sorted :-)
<knome> that's how you learn things though
<KI7MT> it's sounds nuts, but, yeah, I lean more from doing and well, re-doing .. lol..
<knome> repetitio mater studiorum est
<KI7MT> I spent allot of time on the bazaar site today >> User Guide >> Undoing Mistakes .. LOL
<KI7MT> dsmythies, Got your email .. how to I update the MP, do I merely sent it again with the same name ?
 * KI7MT goes to read about launchpad's merge process :-)
<dsmythies> KI7MT: yes, I think so. It has been awhile since I had to send up a revsion myself, so I forget somewhat.
<KI7MT> dsmythies, If you could, in the comments, add which files the comments are referring too .. Also, the built HTML look much better that yelp-build or raw .page files.
<KI7MT> dsmythies, Oh I see, your reading the Diff's file, now your emails making more sense :-)
<dsmythies> KI7MT: I was looking at and reading via the help system. Two windows open side by side, one with the unity help package as per 14.04 install and the other from the file browser to the proposed stuff and then I selected "open with" and then "help".
<dsmythies> KI7MT: I don't actually know which file name I was looking at each time.
<KI7MT> It's on the Diff's file on the MP
<dsmythies> ... as I was navigating around.
<dsmythies> KI7MT: "It's on the Diff's file on the MP" : I know, but I wasn't lookign there.
<KI7MT> If you click on the MP .. I''ve never used 13.10  .. only 12.04 and now 14.04
<KI7MT> I had to open the diff's file because I couldn't follow where you were at, the diff file shows it pretty well.
<KI7MT> dsmythies, How did you build the HTML, with make or yelp ?
<dsmythies> KI7MT: I never ever deviate from the buidl wiki page. at the proper place on that page, I use "make".
<dsmythies> KI7MT: I would have included screen shots with my MP notes, but it seems one can not put attachments into an MP.
<KI7MT> Until later today, I could not make "make" work .. lol .. was using the wrong "make" of course :-)
<KI7MT> dsmythies, No, you can't not without adding the images to bzr
<KI7MT> How  is this process normally handles with changes or adding a series of pages ?,
<KI7MT> This MP is really small, the first one, that was allot.
<dsmythies> KI7MT: Rev 324 has a file added. Have a look at it. Beyond that, I don't understand the question.
<KI7MT> I just wondering about the whole review process, I'll figure it out over time.
<KI7MT> dsmythies, looks like your the only one doing changes to server .. there all yours form 162 to 171
<dsmythies> KI7MT: Serverguide: No, the last 3 are from others. I am just the one that actually merged them. Some how Benjamin seems to know another way to do it such that the MP persons name stays. I do not know how to do it that way. I need to learn how Benjamin does it, and then makes changes to the serverguide documentation committers "how to" wiki.
<KI7MT> dsmythies, And I found out we can bzr push updates to the MP .. Are you don't with comments on the merge ?
<KI7MT> *are you done .. ..
<dsmythies> KI7MT: I haven't looked at the html versions yet, nor had a chance to go back and look with the help system again. So, the answer is I don't know.
<dsmythies> KI7MT: Just some notes...
<dsmythies> KI7MT: if an MP is linked properly, then not need to add a note to bug report pointing to it. The branch will be linked automatically. (reference: bug 1222288 )
<ubot2> Launchpad bug 1222288 in ubuntu-docs (Ubuntu) "addremove-install-synaptic.page minor fix" [Undecided,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1222288
<dsmythies> KI7MT: A bug report is not considered "Fix Committed" until the MP is accpeted and merged to the master code.
<KI7MT> You referring to lp122288 ?
<KI7MT> If so, I'll go fix it.
<dsmythies> No need, I'm just saying for next time.
<KI7MT> I changed it to in progress.
<KI7MT> Also, I pushed an update to the merge proposal for accounts, fixed or explained the things you had quesitons on.
<dsmythies> KI7MT: There is a potential bigger issue with the "online" changes. I am making screen shots of 3 help types: GNOME, Unity the way is was, Unity proposed, and will make an e-mail. The issue, we start to introduce deviation between look and feel of GNOME help Vs. Unity help.
<dsmythies> KI7MT: I have not seen your updated MP yet. Oh... now I see the related e-mails.
<KI7MT> There's lots of isses with that, we should Dash, not point and click in Unity .. at least for things that Dash can access ro launch.
<KI7MT> should use Dash ..
<KI7MT> Im really frustraighted with bzr .. it's just not working the way I need it too and it's still pulling in stuff I dont want it too, even with separate branches.
<KI7MT> I think Im gonna stop using it to send changes, and jsut email them instead. I've spent more time Undoing issues realated to that than fixing things.
<dsmythies> KI7MT: I get very frustrated with bzr also. I am NOT in favor of e-mailed changes, because it shifts the work onto someone else, and typically that someone is already overloaded.
<dsmythies> KI7MT: I'll pull in your revised MP and start again with my screen shots.
<KI7MT> I don like that either, shifting the workload, but there's no point is spending all day fixing something, then having to un-fix things it should have sent up.
<KI7MT> *it should not have .. ..
<KI7MT> The whole point of a distributed cvs is to lesson the workload, not increase it.
<dsmythies> KI7MT: Oh crap... bzr reports a conflict when I pulled rev 328.
<KI7MT> dsmythies, what's the conflict ?
<KI7MT> dsmythies, I think I found the root cause of my issues though: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/SystemDocumentation/Repository  says to init the repo, then pull branches, that relates everything in it. That doesn't work for doing single item merges proposals.
<dsmythies> KI7MT: I don't know yet. (have you noticed how often I say "I don't know"?) it is in ubuntu-help/C/accounts.page. I'm just reviewing / remembering how to look into conflicts.
<KI7MT> dsmythies, you should be able to see the conflicts with either bzr conflicts or bzr status
<KI7MT> dsmythies, Any progress?
<dsmythies> KI7MT: Yes, resolved. However, I did additionally change something. The problem now is I am out of time. I'll have to pick this up in a few hours. I'll add a note to the MP.
<KI7MT> Ok
<KI7MT> I dont really know what to work on now, if I should pull 325 and go work another bug or what.
<KI7MT> I do know one thing, the bran is like 117M each time I pull it, thats allot ..
<KI7MT> *branch
<knome> KI7MT, branch one, then do copies *locally* of that "main" branch
<knome> KI7MT, saves the downloading each time
<KI7MT> knome, GM .. ok,  I ran into the same problem pushing an MP for a patch .. I'll try that method and see how it pans out.
<KI7MT> knome, I think the root cause was, I followed the guide and created a shared local repo
<knome> what i'm proposing is
<knome> bzr branch lp:ubuntu-docs /repository/path/ubuntu-docs-base
<knome> then when you want to start working with a new bug,
<knome> cp -R /repository/path/ubuntu-docs-base /repository/path/ubuntu-docs-fix-for-bug-1234556
<knome> and time and time, go to ubuntu-docs-base and run 'bzr pull' to update the 'base' repository
<KI7MT> Yes, that's what I started setting up to work this morning. Doing the ubuntu-docs-dase branch now.
<knome> :)
<KI7MT> Im not used to the Distributed + gatekeeper model at all :-)
<KI7MT> knome, So now with that setup, when I do commits inside each clone of ubuntu-docs-base .. because it's not is a shared repo, those wont affect the other copies right?
<knome> that's correct
<KI7MT> cool that's what I needed initially, cuze when I pushed an MP update this morning, it pulled a bug fix I did as well.
<KI7MT> I think, but im not sure, that may have caused dsmythies to have the conflict when he pulled the updated MP
<KI7MT> knome, Ok, got that part setup .. now if I want to bring a copy of ubuntu-docs to the level of an MP I can just pull that particular MP from within the copied directory ?
<knome> yes
<KI7MT> Cool thanks.
<knome> or keep working with the already copied branch for that merge proposal, if you still have it locally.
<KI7MT> yes, will do that going forward, but had to rebuild what I had for each at that time first.
<KI7MT> I'll only keep those local copies until they get merged or rejected. At least this way I can keep going forward.
<knome> yep :)
<KI7MT> I think we should probably update the Creating Repo section on the wiki, and propose that methodology for those that are new to bzr, as creating an shared local-repo sets up this problem from the start.
<KI7MT> Although, the init-repo ubuntu-bzr is in the advanced section already, it's the section before that which could be made more clear I think.
<knome> can you link me to the wiki page you are referring to?
<KI7MT> knome, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/SystemDocumentation/Repository
<KI7MT> knome, and whatever method we start out with, needs to gel with the submission: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/SystemDocumentation/Submitting
<KI7MT> Using the cp -R method, would work wiht > bundle but ins a shared repo causes all sorts of issues.
<knome> mhm
<KI7MT> With the master brash being in a Distributed + gatekeeper Model .. a shared local repo is a pit fall is you want to wokk multiple issues, and that's probably a bit more than a new help is ready to undertake.
<KI7MT> *master branch
<dsmythies> bkerensa: Are you around?
<KI7MT> dsmythies, I figured out my root problem, can't have a shared repo, like in the repos section in the Docs Wiki ..
<dsmythies> KI7MT: I saw your discussion with gnome from earlier.
<dsmythies> I mean knome
<knome> :)
<KI7MT> Yeah, so I now have the right setup.
<dsmythies> bkerensa: (or anybody else that knows): You seem to have a method of executing a merge that: I was not aware of; Seems superior to how I do it. I noticed it last cycle also, and searched and searched and couldn't figure out how to do it...
<godbyk> dsmythies: How are you doing merges?
<dsmythies> bkerensa: For example see https://code.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-core-doc/ubuntu-docs/trusty under recent revisions for revisions 325 and 324, where you did 325 and I did 324...
<dsmythies> bkerensa: How I do it is detailed in: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/SystemDocumentation/Repository/Members-Serverguide
<dsmythies> bkerensa: I am very curious as to your method, becuase I think it might be less labour.
<dsmythies> godbyk: Hi. See link above.
<knome> 'bzr branch lp:serverguide' will get the branch in the serverguide directory
<knome> 'bzr branch lp:serverguide mp-10000' will get the serverguide branch to the mp-10000 directory
<knome> that's at least something you can do quicker
<knome> (no need to mkdir!)
<knome> dsmythies, does that answer your question at all?
<knome> dsmythies, and what's the thing you think is cluttered in the merge?
<dsmythies> knome: No, but thanks. I knew that, but typically I need to specify a sub-directory becuase I have used the default name.
<knome> if you're more elaborate with the question, i might have an answer...
<dsmythies> knome: Observe that the merge bkerensa did actually says that KI7MT did it. Observe that the merge I did says I did it, but it was actually an MP from someone else.
<dsmythies> knome: I was wanting to learn the bkerensa way.
<knome> aha, right
<knome> no, i don't have the answer for that...
<dsmythies> knome: I did give gunner credit in the comment line though.
<dsmythies> knome: Thanks for chiming in.
<godbyk> dsmythies: I think I've managed to do that before, too, but don't recall how now.
<godbyk> (I've been using git much more lately, so I'm afraid I'd misremember any bzr-related stuff at the moment.)
<godbyk> dsmythies: Can you merge directly through Launchpad?
<dsmythies> godbyk: if I learn how from bkerensa, then step 1 will to edit the wiki. Why? becuase I wouldn't remember after a few days.
<bkerensa-mobile> dsmythies: you bzr branch the proposers branch
<bkerensa-mobile> Then you cd to it
<bkerensa-mobile> Bzr push lp:ubuntu-docs
<bkerensa-mobile> And it will merge with their commit message
<knome> bzr commit --author "First Last <account at example.com>"
<bkerensa-mobile> And as them
<knome> aha, right, that's probably good as well ;)
 * knome makes notes
<godbyk> bkerensa-mobile: Sneaky! :-)
 * KI7MT takse nots too :-)
<KI7MT> notes
<knome> launchpad doesn't suggest you to do that though
<bkerensa-mobile> Anyways i must poof... Im travelling
<knome> but i guess launchpad is just launchpad
<bkerensa-mobile> Launchpad is foobar
<bkerensa-mobile> :)
<dsmythies> bkerensa: Thanks very much.
<bkerensa-mobile> So foobar that the kernal team uses Git
<bkerensa-mobile> The Ubuntu Kernel Team
<bkerensa-mobile> :)
<bkerensa-mobile> Ttyl
<KI7MT> so in review, bzr branch  .. cd new branch .. bzr push lp:ubuntu-docs  .. from within the new branch
<bkerensa-mobile> Yep
<KI7MT> Thanx
<KI7MT> re: kernel gurus Mr. Torvalds had allot to do with the Git use choice .. seeing how it's his baby :-)
<dsmythies> hmmm... might actually be slower than what I do now, since all 117 megabytes will have to be downloaded. I rarely have to do that anymore. I'll try it though.
<KI7MT> But, it's a true distributed version control system :-)
<dsmythies> about git. Yes I use it also for kernels from kernel.org. I am not very proficient though.
<KI7MT> I was going to ask about that, why do we need such a long history for each new release ? 117m is allot.
<godbyk> KI7MT: I'd like to know the answer to that as well.
<dsmythies> KI7MT: try downloading the help.ubuntu.com branch. It is enormous. (so actually, don't try.)
<godbyk> When I created the trusty branch, I branched it from saucy so it kept that history.
<godbyk> I did that because past branches were created the same way.
<godbyk> Why we don't start a fresh repository each cycle, I don't know.
<dsmythies> that is all I know how to do also.
<godbyk> (For the manual project, I do start a fresh repository each cycle so we don't have to download as much data each time.)
#ubuntu-doc 2014-01-12
<dsmythies> bzr is complaining that we do not have "prestine source" (or something) anyhow.
 * godbyk has no idea what that means.
<dsmythies> me neither, something to do with 13.10.2 I suppose coming after we setup 14.04
<dsmythies> I have been meaning to ask on the mail list.
<dsmythies> everybody: I wonder if history is needed for translation string migration?
<KI7MT> I like the ubuntu-manual way, if I want 13.10 .. I go get it and go from there .. in 14.04 .. I dont need 13.10 for the most part.
<knome> no, aren't those moved with .po files
<godbyk> dsmythies: It isn't. The strings don't pay attention to branches.
<godbyk> dsmythies: The strings are independent of branches.
<dsmythies> O.K. thanks.
<godbyk> dsmythies: No problem. :)
<KI7MT> godbyk, just for info .. when you start fresh with ubuntu-maual  .. how is that different from what happend with ubuntu-docs
<godbyk> KI7MT: I don't understand the question. Can you rephrase it?
<KI7MT> godbyk, lol .. I dont either.. lol . actually you answered above what the real question was, why do we need 117m of history for each release.
<godbyk> For the manual, I create a new, empty repository and then I manually copy over files from the previous repository into the new repository.
<KI7MT> If I check out lp:ubuntu-docs/trusty .. I shouldnt' really get allot of rev's, as there's not been that many.
<godbyk> So each new repository resets history, basically.
<KI7MT> yeah, that makes since to me, for what we are doing, there's no real need for major regression .. with the kernel, yeah i can see why that would be a wanted item.
<KI7MT> but for docs, each version has a wall, release date to EOL.
<KI7MT> outside of that, who cares really, get the previous or follow on versions.
<KI7MT> It makes sense to pill the source files from the previous version, just for the base, but there's no guarantee all the .page files will be used, or even wanted.
<KI7MT> * to pull
<dsmythies> KI7MT: are you knowlegable about wordpress?
<KI7MT> dsmythies, Not particularly, I've sent up allot VPS / Vhosts that use WP. Did did the Apache + Nginx caching + CDN work for them.
<dsmythies> KI7MT: do you know if older versions had wp-content at /var/lib/wordpress/wp-content but newer have it at /usr/share/wordpress/wp-content ?
<KI7MT> No I dont know that.
<dsmythies> KI7MT: Thanks.
<knome> dsmythies, sounds like something that's related to the ubuntu package more than wordpress itself
<dsmythies> knome: I am just wanting to deal with: https://bugs.launchpad.net/serverguide/+bug/1264963 , which is a trivial bug, but I need to figure out this one thing.
<ubot2> Launchpad bug 1264963 in Ubuntu Server Guide "Wordpress configuration apache site information wrong" [Undecided,Confirmed]
<dsmythies> knome on my computer it's at /usr/share/wordpress/wp-content (note: I don't actually run WP, I installed way back when I was checking the wp doc addition)
<knome> :)
<dsmythies> I think I'll just delete this alias: Alias /blog/wp-content /var/lib/wordpress/wp-content becuase it doesn't currently work anyhow.
<KI7MT> shaunm__, If you around, is there an IRC channel, other than the web IRC we can use for gnome-docs ?
<shaunm__> KI7MT: #docs on irc.gnome.org
<shaunm__> gnome's irc channels aren't on freenode
<KI7MT> shaunm__, Thank you.
<KI7MT> shaunm__, GIMPNet == irc.gnome.org ... no wonder I cold not find it :-)
<KI7MT> *could
<shaunm__> oh, yeah
<shaunm__> it was GIMP's irc network first
<KI7MT> shaunm__, do we have to go through the NickServ registration and all that like we do for freenode?
<shaunm__> KI7MT: no, gimpnet's not as strict about that.
<KI7MT> Ok, thanks, I found gnome Wiki about IRC info, having a read there.
<KI7MT> wow, I just installed gnome-shell and did some checking. Allot of the things I'm seeing in the .page files is making allot more sense.
<KI7MT> Is the long term goal to Have (1) Desktop Help .. or .. is it to have Keep them separate for Unity, Gnome, Touch etc?
<KI7MT> *have / keep
<KI7MT> For example, in gnome3, The Online Accounts Interface is very different to what is in Unity .. and the available service selections is 3 v.s. like 9 in Unity.
<shaunm__> KI7MT: we've basically given up on having a single desktop help. gnome and unity have just diverged too much
<shaunm__> but a lot of the things mallard does are shaped by our attempts to do so
<KI7MT> shaunm__, Yes, seems Mallard is the right tool for the Job ... I think the Unity side has to look hard at everything at this point.
<KI7MT> shaunm__, I just did a quick grep and there's like 76 or so files in ubuntu:docs that still have if:choose tags in them.
<KI7MT> dsmythies, I was on the 14.04 workstation emails.
<KI7MT> dsmythies, Im to the point now where I'd recommend reverting to r324 and cancel the pending MP .. and when there a decision about all the open issues. maybe of these issues are outside the scope of the MP/
<KI7MT> *when a decision is made
<KI7MT> dsmythies, As for the needed files, if you not using yelp-new why do we need page.stub or .tml files?
<dsmythies> KI7MT: files: That is a different subject than files as a result of building the html
<KI7MT> dsmythies, for instance, see ubuntu-docs/C/{unity-stubs,templates}
<dsmythies> KI7MT: there is some e-mail about why the stub files are there. I'll tyr to find it.
<KI7MT> dsmythies, I think you should just revert to 324 and rejst the pending MP .. then with the powers to be, get a consensus on the open issues.
<KI7MT> * .. reject
<dsmythies> KI7MT: I was hoping godbyk would have commented by now. I was thinking to accept the pending MP and move on for now.
<KI7MT> dsmythies, As for now, there are too many open policy issues that need to be resolved
<godbyk> dsmythies: Which MP?  I'll take a look at it in just a moment if you like.
<dsmythies> KI7MT: There is no about at all on the index page now. Maybe that is what gunner was commenting on.
<godbyk> I have to get caught up on all the ubuntu-docs emails, too.
<KI7MT> dsmythies, Also, the Build Page need fixed, it tells you to install yelp and the required files, if we not using yelp, why install it?
<dsmythies> The one that fixes the one that already was accepted.
<KI7MT> dsmythies, I know there is no "About"   there no need or it, it's a mute point for Unity Desktop Help, as the footer is totally different.
<dsmythies> KI7MT: I'll look at the build page. as far as I know everythhing that is says is needed is needed.
<dsmythies> KI7MT: No it is not. Is is identical. Do not confuse yelp help with the html. They are different.
<KI7MT> Well On my 14.04 desktop install and all the normal make builds, nothign shows the "About" info. The only way I can see "about" info is build using yelp, which you've said I shold not do.
<dsmythies> What? I did not. I said to not use yelp-build, but rather use yelp-build via the make command
<KI7MT> yes, that's what Im saying, not to use yelp-build ..
<dsmythies> To test a local branch browse to the file, say index.page and select "open with" and select "help", which will use yelp.
<dsmythies> That is what I did in those screen shots.
<dsmythies> All three method use the built in "help" system, which uses yelp.
<KI7MT> Im so confused with the methodoly here, it just makes no sense to me what so ever.
<dsmythies> KI&MT: O.K. Lets start again. And lets leave html out of  completely for now...
<dsmythies> KI7MT: O.K. Lets start again. And lets leave html out of  completely for now...
<KI7MT> Im gonna go take a break .. BBL
<dsmythies> KI7MT: O.K.
<dsmythies> godbyk: https://code.launchpad.net/~ki7mt/ubuntu-docs/online-accounts-update/+merge/201135 that benjamin merged, but that needs ...
<dsmythies> godbyk: https://code.launchpad.net/~ki7mt/ubuntu-docs/accounts-files-patch/+merge/201182 to be complete, but...
<dsmythies> godbyk: all you reaaly need to do is look at my e-mail with screen shots and it shows all 3 side by side (proposed, the way it was, and GNOME)
<godbyk> dsmythies: Okay, I'll take a look. Thanks!
<KI7MT> dsmythies, Im back, this is my recommendation, and i'm sticking to it. Reject my proposed MP, and revert to r324 as I clearly do not understand how the build system works and should not have proposed changes until I do.
<dsmythies> KI7MT: at this point we can not. as now MPs are stacked onto it.
<KI7MT> dsmythies, You can not what? reject the MP or revert to 325?
<KI7MT> *324
<dsmythies> Revert. Which in my mind means we really need to accept the new MP because it fixes the existing one.
<dsmythies> * the existing, already merged, one.
<KI7MT> dsmythies, the fixes are minor, it's the policy that really needs to be resolved.
<dsmythies> KI7MT: I know, and sorry for the frustrtion. I see that gunners new MP adds to differences that already exist between UNITY and GNOME in keyboard-layouts.page
<KI7MT> dsmythies, an easy way to do it would be, accept the mp, then revert just the edited files, and re-commit, that should keep things in line elsewhere.
<dsmythies> KI7MT: I know.
<dsmythies> KI7MT: I didn't mean to create a saga.
<KI7MT> dsmythies, like I said int the email I sent last night, there's things that need to be resolved and published before people spend more man hours creating more issues.
<KI7MT> dsmythies, In other words, we need written guidence.
<knome> written and brief but to-the-point
<knome> i can most definitely help get https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam in shape, but not sure how useful i am with the content
<knome> i think it's better to 'release early, update often' than try to create something perfect in the darkness
<KI7MT> knome, indeed, the nice thing about a vcs is you can always go back if it's busted.
<knome> i was talking about the wiki, but that has versioning too :)
<KI7MT> knome, I always work by, make a decision, stick by it, if it fails, put measure in place to prevent repeat-failures, and move on :-)
<knome> works with docs.
<KI7MT> :-) life an death tings probably not a good approach .. but most other things is ok :-)
<KI7MT> dsmythies, so what's the final verdict here?
<KI7MT> dsmythies, I suppose, another option, commit the MP, create a bug, assign to me and make me fix it ! :-) that will at lest get things moving again.
<dsmythies> KI7MT: I'll commit the MP. Then we'll WAIT for the discussion to catch up, but meanwhile can catch up with the other MPs.
<KI7MT> dsmythies, Ok, there's another one line fix coming for legal.xml.
<dsmythies> KI7MT: I think gunner is doing the legal.xml fix and adding to his already pending MP. Check with him.
<KI7MT> dsmythies, Ok
<KI7MT> dsmythies, I sent a note out, but I don't see it included in his current MP on launchpad.
<KI7MT> dsmythies, re Gunnar's MP - I'd merge it, and bug / task list the remaining item .
<KI7MT> assuming your happy with the other edits of course.
#ubuntu-doc 2015-01-06
<pmatulis> did we have a meeting today?  if so, i missed it by an hour by following my calendar
<dsmythies> pmatulis: Yes, we had the meeting.
<pmatulis> dsmythies: damn, i need to look at the calendar and see what went wrong
<pleia2> dsmythies: nice job with the meeting!
<pleia2> pmatulis: meeting log/minutes here: http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting-2/2015/ubuntu-meeting-2.2015-01-06-17.31.moin.txt
<pleia2> also, time zones are hard on humans, I showed up for a meeting 1 hour early yesterday :D
<pmatulis> i can't seem to put an event in UTC in google calendar.  so frustrating
<pleia2> pmatulis: use Iceland, UTC and no DST :)
<pleia2> I do that for all UTC meetings I add to Goog cal
<pleia2> (yesterday I just couldn't read calendars, because Monday)
<pmatulis> pleia2: wow ok, iceland it is
<pmatulis> pleia2: fixed the calendar, thanks
<pleia2> \o/
<dsmythies> pleia2: Thanks for the comment. I was away from my desk.
#ubuntu-doc 2016-01-12
<pleia2> sigh, how did there get to be so many threads about the help.ubuntu.com/community wiki lockdown?
 * knome shrugs
<pleia2> making it hard to collect feedback to form a coherent email to IS
<knome> how come there are so many mails and no suggestions on how to go forward?
<pleia2> Gunnar asked where we are, and where we are is we need to tell IS something
<pleia2> there are some ideas, but we don't know if IS can do any of them
<pleia2> so it's kind of an echo chamber there
<knome> one thing i had been playing with is requiring the ubuntu-etherpad team membership to edit the wiki
<knome> it has a pretty good userbase to begin with, and there's not much overhead in linking that with the wiki
<knome> that is, if it's possible to only let people in that team login
 * pleia2 adds that to the list
<pleia2> alright, responded on list
<pleia2> if no one responds with proposals, that's ok, a list of three possiblities is fine to ship to IS
#ubuntu-doc 2016-01-13
<knome> pleia2, also: https://moinmo.in/AntiSpamFeatures
#ubuntu-doc 2016-01-14
<rjc> hi all
<rjc> I visited the page https://help.ubuntu.com/community/BinaryDriverHowto/Nvidia
<rjc> and clicked on login to edit (or similar)
<rjc> now, after I had logged on, I can't see the how can I edit the page
<pmatulis> rjc: the help wiki has been subject to significant vandalism lately and it's in lockdown
<rjc> pmatulis: thanks for the info
<rjc> it would be good to put that info somewhere there
<rjc> how is the wiki being updated then?
<pmatulis> rjc: it's not. there is a thread on ubuntu-doc m/l
<pmatulis> (see topic to go to that m/l)
<rjc> OK, will have a look later
<rjc> thanks
#ubuntu-doc 2016-01-16
<helmo> Hi, I've run into an outdated but immutable page https://help.ubuntu.com/community/DotDeb  Anyone here who can help in fixing that?
<helmo> The dotdeb.com domain seems to be not in use anymore, but on dotdeb.org there is a repository.... not sure if it has the same origin.
<knome> helmo, the wiki is currently editable only by wiki admins and editors after a spam attack
<knome> what kind of changes are you proposing?
<helmo> knome: dotdeb.com is currently one of those spammy parked domains... So linking there seems bad. I suggest to update it to link to dotdeb.org.
<knome> helmo, one of the problems i see with that page is that it offers packages for debian, but not explicitly for ubuntu
<knome> helmo, anyway, updated the page/link
#ubuntu-doc 2017-01-09
<cipher6> did anyone see the message about the surround sound doc and the malicious link last night?
#ubuntu-doc 2018-01-13
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