#ubuntu-manual 2010-06-07
<askhl_> Hi.  What do we do about the \eg command?  It's not mentioned in the style guide pdf.
<askhl_> I suppose it outputs "e.g.\ ", but the question is whether that happens to be translatable elsewhere
<askhl_> Also, should we type in the plural name for glossary commands even though that is not designated in the English string?
<godbyk> askhl_: There are two options for \eg and \ie:
<godbyk> 1. Replace each occurrence with translated text.
<godbyk> 2. Email me the translations <kevin@ubuntu-manual.org> and I'll modify the code to do the right thing and you can leave the \ie and \eq commands as is.
<godbyk> askhl_: Leave the label part of the \newglossary commands in English, but you can add "plural={plural form}" after the description={..} part.  (Separate them with a comma.)
<godbyk> For example: \newglossaryentry{cherry}{name={cherry},description={Yummy fruit that goes in pies.},plural={cherries}}
<godbyk> Then the \glspl{cherry} command will output 'cherries' in the PDF.
<askhl_> I think the sensible way (for inter-language portability) is not to use commands like \eg -- could you add that to the style guide?  (For other translators of course)
<askhl_> I'm going through some suggestions written by other translators, and they tend not to get it right
<askhl_> godbyk, great, I'll write a few notes about that for our other translators
<askhl_> Thank you godbyk
<askhl_> (also I recommend adding all this to the style guide :))
<godbyk> Yeah, I really need to spend some time updating the style guide.
<godbyk> Regrading the \ie and \eq commands, it just depends on what each translation team prefers to do.  The reason the commands exist in the first place is to ensure my nit-picky spacing is consistent throughout the manual.
<askhl_> How much will I break if I write illegal latex translations?
<godbyk> askhl_: Can you give me an example?
<askhl_> godbyk, sooner or later I'll make a typo in one of the latex commands :).  And there's no msgfmt command to check validity for tex
<godbyk> askhl_: Ah, right.  Well, the build scripts are designed to try to carry on despite your error.  It will show up in the log file and in the error count on the build page, though.
<godbyk> http://builds.ubuntu-manual.org/
<askhl_> Two errors in Danish already :)
<godbyk> If you do a really good job at screwing it up, it may give up on that PDF and move on to the next language. :)
<askhl_> Anyway, that link should definitely be in the style guide (or whichever piece of text translators should read :))
<godbyk> Good point.  I'll make a note of it.
<askhl_> (I hope I'm not too annoying, coming in here and saying do this, do that, but it'll make things go smoother in other languages, and I've translated a lot so I know which things tend to go wrong, are difficult to communidate etc.)
<askhl_> communiCate*
<godbyk> Nope, I'm happy to receive suggestions.
<godbyk> Unfortunately, I haven't had as much time lately to implement them as I'd like.
<godbyk> But I am always on the lookout for ways to simplify translators' (and others') lives.
<godbyk> The easier we make it for people to contribute to our project, the more people (and more often) will contribute.
<askhl_> godbyk, can you make it possible to add translator coments to the po templates?
<askhl_> godbyk, I wouldn't mind contributing a few if it can be done
<godbyk> askhl_: I don't think it's possible right now, sorry.
<askhl_> I guess you have some special script for i18n of latex documents which would have to be modified
<askhl_> All right
<godbyk> We're using po4a to handle the LaTeX-to-po conversion (and vice versa).
<godbyk> In the original English .tex files, I can add %TRANSLATOR: pay attention to this! comments.
<godbyk> But the English .tex files are locked down now -- we can't modify them.
<godbyk> (Where "can't" is imposed by a writing freeze, not a technical limitation.)
<askhl_> Oh, okay
<godbyk> (The primary reason is that then Launchpad would reimport the new translation template file and wreak havoc on the existing translations.)
<askhl_> Yikes.  Just because of added comments?
<askhl_> At least with normal po-files this wouldn't be a problem, but launchpad doesn't always do the most sensible thing
<godbyk> We've been bitten by a Launchpad bug that causes translations to be reset as mere suggestions when it imports empty strings in po files.
<godbyk> So I've turned off all of the automatic importing in Launchpad for now.
<godbyk> No auto-import or auto-export.
<askhl_> godbyk, right, you're not the only one :)
<askhl_> Just a question -- when we have 7% of the strings translated, is there a magic translation percentage that has to be reached for the translations to be shipped?
<askhl_> err, that should read "e.g. 75%" or something
<askhl_> (that would be a bit low I guess, actually)
<godbyk> 'To be shipped'?
<askhl_> well, 'made available'
<godbyk> Well, it won't be published (released to the general public via our website and lulu.com with lots of fanfare) until it's completely finished.
<godbyk> You can always find the latest draft copies at http://builds.ubuntu-manual.org/, however.
<askhl_> Great, thanks
<godbyk> We'd like the translated editions to be of the same high quality (don't snicker!) as the original English edition.
<askhl_> Danish at 5% now.  Booyeah...
<ubuntujenkins> moning all
<quickshotdevs> New news from manualplanet: Benjamin Humphrey: Many hands make the light work; few make it shine
 * ubuntujenkins don't try and install arch quickly fail count = 2
<nailora> when will the translated versions (esp. the german one) be released? are there preliminary versions i could have a look at?
<ubuntujenkins> nailora: if you look at build.ubuntu-manual.org for a draft . The translated ones then have to go through a editing process before release.
<ubuntujenkins> sorry builds.ubuntu-manual.org
<nailora> ok the german one is said to be completely translated and building ok. is there any time schedule for the post-editing?
<ubuntujenkins> nailora: I am not sure godbyk is the person to ask, I think he is asleep. Basically there is/we get an editor for each language and then it goes through a checklist of things that need to be done. godbyk handles all that
<ubuntujenkins> I don't knwo which langauges have editors and which don't
<nailora> so godbyk is not the german editor but the person managing all the editors
<ubuntujenkins> yea godbyk manages all the editors and is or latex wizard
<ubuntujenkins> you can either get hold of him this evening or drop an e-mail to the list
<nailora> thanks
<ubuntujenkins> ok I am off to do revsion now if anybody wants build errors fixed get them to e-mail me and i will fix them tonight
<ubuntujenkins> bye o/
<nisshh> oh wow, check out benjamins awesome rant on omgubuntu: http://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2010/06/many-hands-make-light-work-few-make-it.html
<nisshh> very relevant points but also a very LONG post
<thorwil> nisshh: hmm, that's actually rather short and tame ;)
<nisshh> thorwil: hehe, yea i suppose, he isnt swearing in it is he? still its one hell of a rant if you ask me
<shrini> team:
<shrini> thanks a lot for all your support.
<shrini> http://kanchilug.wordpress.com/2010/06/07/ubuntu-10-04-release-party-at-kanchipuram/
<shrini> we celebrated ubuntu release party
<shrini> and
<shrini> released ubuntu-manual in tamil
<shrini> http://ubuntu-tam.org/avanam/lucid-lynx/ubuntu-manual-ta.pdf
<nisshh> shrini: excellent, well done!
<shrini> with godbyk and ubuntujenkins
<shrini> continious help only
<shrini> it happened
<dutchie> congrats
<nisshh> shrini: i know you guys have been working hard for a while now
<nisshh> good to see it form into a final product
<ubuntujenkins> shrini: I am fixing the tamil build errors in my lunch break. If you see any translations marked for review by "luke jennings" then thats me fixing latex santax.
<shrini> ubuntujenkins: thanks a lot
<ubuntujenkins> shrini: with this string https://translations.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual/lucid-e1/+pots/ubuntu-manual/ta/+translate?start=123 I put the old translation back as i got it wrong. But in it there are a lot less \{} than the english. Is that the correct string for the english?
<shrini> ubuntujenkins: checking
<ubuntujenkins> shrini: also what is this in english "à®¨à¯à®¾à®à¯à®à®¿à®µà®¿à®à¯à®·à®©à¯ à®à®°à®¿à®¯à®¾" ?
<shrini> notification area
<shrini> :-)
<shrini> ubuntujenkins: in that link we missed acronyms
<shrini> we are not finished 100%
<shrini> still there are some improvements are required
<ubuntujenkins> ok shrini thats fine also in https://translations.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual/lucid-e1/+pots/ubuntu-manual/ta/3/+translate the top one is correct as far as latex is concerned
<shrini> ubuntujenkins: yes
<ubuntujenkins> shrini: just saw it an thought i would mention it :)
<shrini> thanks a lot
<shrini> ubuntujenkins: so kind of you
<vish> thorwil: do you know the script/code for the progress bar, we used for the manual site?
<vish> or godbyk ^
<vish> heh , daker is never around when we need him!
<thorwil> vish: except for the logo and planet button, i had no involvement with the website
<ubuntujenkins> shrini: if you type an & in you need to put a \ before it so it reads \&
<ubuntujenkins> shrini: I am back to more work now but I will do some later
<ubuntujenkins> shrini: can you review all the translations I marked for review please I have just done lots in launchpad. \menu{Applications -> Games -> World of Goo} should be written \menu{Applications \then Games \then World of Goo} . The word "\then" makes and arrow when it is in a \menu{ }
<vish> hmm , could someone ping me when daker is back here
<shrini> ubuntujenkins: yes. i agree
<shrini> our team will review all the items
<shrini> and make the necessary changes
<ubuntujenkins> thanks also does à®à®ªà¯à®³à®¿à®à¯ mean package
<ubuntujenkins> I think i have made the correct changes to them it just needs double checking please
<shrini> ubuntujenkins: you are right
<shrini> we will do that
<ubuntujenkins> also can you check that all the \gls{} and \glspl{} are in english. they get changed to tamil automatically buy translations you do in another part. Its all to do with the \newglossryentry{}
<shrini> okwy
<shrini> sure
<shrini> i think we need to follow the guidelines strictly
<ubuntujenkins> thanks when you have reviewed them all i will do some more tonight.
<shrini> sure
<ubuntujenkins> ok I am back to work see you later
<nisshh> dudes check this out: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/OperationCleansweep
<h00k> nisshh: that's pretty sweet
<nisshh> h00k: yea, no kidding ay, i might join in later somtime
<pleia2> godbyk: any luck finding anything out about docbook to mallard conversion?
 * pleia2 is currently neck-deep in docbook, and sincerely hoping she isn't learning this stuff for the lols
 * nisshh feels sorry for pleia2 
<pleia2> hah, thanks :)
<pleia2> I used it some back in 2005, but that feels like eons ago now
<pleia2> and mostly I was just hacking at and existing docbook thing, not actually learning how it works
<nisshh> hmmm, better or worse than latex?
<pleia2> well, it's a more standardized format for documentation industry-wide, which makes it appealing
<nisshh> yea, isnt it more for online stuff?
<pleia2> but the -manual team's latex templates made things pretty easy, not sure yet how docbook templates will similarly translate
<pleia2> you can write books with it, the benefit of docbook is that it's exportable into a zillion formats
<pleia2> the problem, of course, is that it's not easy
<nisshh> yea, it never is is it? theres always a learning curve
 * pleia2 nods
<pleia2> but you can actually get real life jobs based on knowing docbook, can't say much for mallard (or latex, honestly)
<nisshh> yea
<nisshh> i did read somewhere just yesterday that yelp in 10.10 has support for mallard
<pleia2> it'll gain traction since gnome is switching, but I doubt it'll get beyond the gnome world
<pleia2> docbook has actual real life usage outside of open source
<nisshh> probably
<nisshh> hmmm, it must never be printed on book covers and stuff, you never see or hear about it outside of OS
<nisshh> which is a shame
<pleia2> yeah
<ubuntujenkins> do we have a malay or Brasilian Portuguese translator here?
<ubuntujenkins> or any translator that would like their language
<ubuntujenkins> or any translator that would like the build errors for their language fixed?
<shrini> ubuntujenkins: approved your suggestions
<shrini> thanks a lot
<ubuntujenkins> shrini: no problem I will try and find the rest of the errors now
<shrini> ubuntujenkins: no hurrys
<ubuntujenkins> I am bored of work so I need a break
<shrini> ubuntujenkins: our team will look it
<shrini> oh
<shrini> okok
<shrini> enjoy
<ubuntujenkins> I will :)
<shrini> what is your work?
<ubuntujenkins> I am a student I am currently studying for final exams
<ubuntujenkins> final exams for this year that is
<shrini> oh
<shrini> thats great
<shrini> where do you live?
<ubuntujenkins> I live and study in the uk at loughborough university www.lboro.ac.uk
<c7p> it sounds something like the previous name of win vista (I don't remember the exact name though)
<ubuntujenkins> shrini: one thing i fogot to say earlier is please don't press the return/enter key in a translation as it causes errors. You can edit the layout in the editing stage. thanks :)
<shrini> ubuntujenkins: thats great man
<shrini> so happy to see young people doing wonders
<ubuntujenkins> shrini: can you review them again please
<shrini> sure
<shrini> done
<shrini> :-)
<ubuntujenkins> thanks
<c7p> ubuntujenkins: excuse my curiosity but what do you study?
<ubuntujenkins> c7p: I study Mechanical Engineering
<shrini> ubuntujenkins: awesome
<ubuntujenkins> shrini: thanks :-)
<dutchie> Maths is the way forward!
<shrini> :-)
<c7p> ubuntujenkins: cool :D. Engineering is very interesting
<ubuntujenkins> c7p: its also hard work :/ . I am looking forward to having time for quickshot
<ubuntujenkins> shrini: there are a couple more to review, one is because I made a mistake.
<shrini> ubuntujenkins: done that
<ubuntujenkins> cool I will get the new file
<c7p> ubuntujenkins: nevermind if you like it ;). As a greek phrase says "each thing on it's time". Quickshot rocks, what else should be done on it?
<ubuntujenkins> I do like quickshot has loads of plans for the next release and we have not really started on the user interface
<ubuntujenkins> *I do like uni
<ubuntujenkins> *I do like uni,
<ubuntujenkins> shrini: no build errors just loads of font ones now
<shrini> :-)
<shrini> ubuntujenkins: we need the screenshots in english itself
<ubuntujenkins> shrini: are you saying you need the english screenshots?
<shrini> ubuntujenkins: yes
<ubuntujenkins> shrini: we will sort out the fonts first, that can be done really easily. I need to do some more work now
<shrini> ubuntujenkins: ok
<shrini> actually, I did it in my laptop
<shrini> copied all english screenshots and
<shrini> put in folder screenshots/ta
<shrini> it did the magic
<shrini> :-)
<shrini> what are the issues with font?
<ubuntujenkins> all you need to do is link the ta folder and the en folder I will do that on main later. I will be back in an hour or so
<ubuntujenkins> I don't know about the font i need to speek to godbyk
<ubuntujenkins> how are we channel?
<c7p> ubuntujenkins: what do you mean ?
<ubuntujenkins> c7p: I was asking the channel how they are feeling
<ubuntujenkins> channel/ people in it
<c7p> aha no I see
<c7p> nice, I think these days are pretty low-paced so no anxiety etc
<c7p> is there anyone who know the basics of html ?
<ubuntujenkins> popey: do you what program can you make an e-book with?
<popey> define ebook
<ubuntujenkins> thanks popey
<popey> que?
<popey> I was asking a question :)
<popey> what do you mean by 'ebook'
<ubuntujenkins> doh! facepalm . You were looking for an ebook version of the manual. so it could be read on a kindle or such like. You started to make one what program did you use?
<ubuntujenkins> or android etc
 * ubuntujenkins tries calibre
 * ubuntujenkins that failed
<popey> ah yes
<popey> mobipocket iirc
<popey> the pdf version looks arse on the kindle
<popey> font is too small
<popey> and grey text on white is impossible to read even on epaper
<dutchie> popey: you get to be kindle texting man!
<dutchie> err, testing
<ubuntujenkins> ok thanks popey, this is me "revising"
 * ubuntujenkins wishes his exam was in ubuntu
<popey> :)
<ubuntujenkins> does i run i wine?
<dutchie> wine Setup.exe
<popey> i tried it at work on my windows laptop
<ubuntujenkins> ok, I will try in wine
<popey> http://www.mobipocket.com/en/DownloadSoft/ProductDetailsCreator.asp
<ubuntujenkins> hmm it fails in wine loads of "fixme:" erroes
<godbyk> vish: For the Ubuntu Manual progress bar, humphreybc generated that by hand each time. There wasn't a script for it.
 * ubuntujenkins epubs on ubuntu from pdf is not easy at first glance
<godbyk> pleia2: I haven't looked at the docbook-to-mallard conversion yet, I'm afraid.
<ubuntujenkins> godbyk: I have fix all the build errors dues to latex in tamil just font errors now. I will do some more soon. but it helps if you have a translator to check things with when you are doing it.
<pleia2> godbyk: no problem, thanks :)
<godbyk> ubuntujenkins: great! yeah, I know what you mean about having a translator at hand.
<dutchie>   
<godbyk> dutchie's speechless?
<ubuntujenkins> ChrisWoollard: uk English now has no build errors.
<dutchie> just spaced out
<ChrisWoollard> Wow,
<ChrisWoollard> Who did that
<dutchie> badum tish
<ubuntujenkins> godbyk: I am not looking forward to russin 115 errors
<ChrisWoollard> THanks
<ubuntujenkins> ChrisWoollard: me :) . Its my way of revising Mechanical engineering :P
<godbyk> ubuntujenkins: Is the Russian getting translated pretty quickly?  We have a ton of requests for it.
<ChrisWoollard> thanks.
<ubuntujenkins> godbyk: 10th
<ubuntujenkins> about 48% done
<ChrisWoollard> I was going to do it myself, but my youngest child has Chicken Pocks
<ubuntujenkins> we have 5 translated languages
<ubuntujenkins> ChrisWoollard: took 5 mins nice and easy, its harder when you do it in a langauge you don't speak
<vish> godbyk: the progressbar image was pretty, maybe we can get that for the review team .. i think they have the script worked out
 * ubuntujenkins rembers how ichy chicken ox was
 * ubuntujenkins fails at typing
<ChrisWoollard> lol
<godbyk> vish: cool.  yeah, it could've been script, if I'd had the time. :)  ImageMagick can do damn near anything.
<ChrisWoollard> It took me ages the other day to re-translate everything that got lost :(
<ubuntujenkins> godbyk: can you please write down how to get latex to do the correct font for the language that way i can put one in for languages that don't have one. (assuming its not to hard to write out). I think several of the next ones in the translation list need fonts ircc
<ubuntujenkins> *iirc
<godbyk> ubuntujenkins: Basically, copy the um-template.clo file to um-LANGUAGENAME.clo
<godbyk> then edit that file and change the font names (and the command names).
<ubuntujenkins> ok cool thanks, have you made the tamil one work as I am wondering if it is my computer thats making the font not show
<godbyk> Yeah, there's a um-tamil.clo file.
<godbyk> You have to download the Akshar Unicode font from the web.  It's not packaged.
<godbyk> ubuntujenkins: http://www.kamban.com.au/fonts/akshar.ttf
<ubuntujenkins> are link? do you know if i am free to package it my self?
<ubuntujenkins> thanks :)
<godbyk> Came from http://www.kamban.com.au/
<ubuntujenkins> where do i save it?
<godbyk> You'll have to look into the license. I'm not sure if we can package it or not.
<godbyk> Save it to ~/.fonts/
<godbyk> (create the dir if it doesn't exist)
<godbyk> then run: fc-cache -v ~/.fonts/
<godbyk> and then it should work.
<ubuntujenkins> cool
<ubuntujenkins> godbyk: I am still geting random squares and lots of Missing character: There is no Ã Â¯Â in font Linux Libertine O/ICU:mapping=tex-te
<ubuntujenkins> xt,+onum,! in the log file
<godbyk> There are still some issues. :)
<ubuntujenkins> fair enough . Just thought it may be me.
<godbyk> I think there are still some places where it's using a different font.
<godbyk> I'll pull the latest translations from launchpad and start the builds.  We'll see how things look.
<ubuntujenkins> ok you should fine the top seven work fingures crossed
<godbyk> Tamil just kind of shot up out of nowhere, didn't it? :)
<ubuntujenkins> yep
<ubuntujenkins> they translated on paper an then typed it up in open office and then copied it into launchpad
<godbyk> ubuntujenkins: If you have time (or are procrastinating on other things), you can poke around and figure out how we teach the indexer about new languages: http://xindy.sourceforge.net/
<ubuntujenkins> godbyk: that had crossed my mind I will add it to the list
<c7p> night all
<ubuntujenkins> night c7p
<ChrisWoollard> ubuntujenkins: Does the en_GB manual build for you?
<ChrisWoollard> mind gives an error.
<ubuntujenkins> ChrisWoollard: works for me have you pulled the latest po file godby-k updated a about 30 mins ago
<ubuntujenkins> whats the command to find out the revision of your bzr branch?
<godbyk> ubuntujenkins: bzr revno
<ubuntujenkins> thanks go
<ubuntujenkins> thanks godbyk
<godbyk> np
<ubuntujenkins> ChrisWoollard: I am on revison 871
<godbyk> ChrisWoollard: The latest build of en_GB looks clean to me.
<godbyk> There's a missing reference, though.
<godbyk> Looks like someone probably misspelled a label with an -ise instead of -ize.  :)
<godbyk> (Look on page 23 for something that references sec:customising-desktop
<godbyk> and later sec:organising-photos
<ubuntujenkins> godbyk: in the 10 minitues I quickly looked at the xindy stuff I "think" what we need is for the letters of the alphabet to be written out in alphabetical order. Thats my first impression
<godbyk> ubuntujenkins: Okay.  Now you might have to see how to do it more specifically with Tamil (as it's a syllabic script).
<ubuntujenkins> I am not sure of yet i will look into it more on wednesday after my exam
<ubuntujenkins> we should also send any work we do on making new rules back to the xindy people to improve future releases
<godbyk> Okay.
<ubuntujenkins> night all
<ChrisWoollard> godbyk: was that ise ize thing means me.
<godbyk> ChrisWoollard: You or ubuntujenkins or whoever wants to fix it. :)
<ChrisWoollard> cool. I guess when it comes to references they shouldn't have their spelling corrected to british
<godbyk> Right.
<godbyk> The most important thing is that the references *match*.  It's just easier if they're left as-is.
<godbyk> (The rule is to leave them in their original form because they're used internally by LaTeX in weird ways, and I didn't want funky non-ASCII characters to give LaTeX fits.)
<ChrisWoollard> ok
<ChrisWoollard> no problem.
<ChrisWoollard> I'll see if i can fix it
<ChrisWoollard> How often is launchpad sync'd
<godbyk> ChrisWoollard: However often I push the button.
<godbyk> I think there are some internal delays, too.
<godbyk> So your new translations may not be exported immediately.
<ChrisWoollard> godbyk: what is a LaTeX Warning: Hyper reference `ch:installation' on page 119 undefined on input
<ChrisWoollard>  line 6327.
<godbyk> ChrisWoollard: It means that LaTeX is trying to link to \label{ch:installation}, but \label{ch:installation} isn't present in the document.
<godbyk> However: it will say that about ALL the cross-references the first time through.
<godbyk> Only pay attention to the log file after you've ran 'make ubuntu-manual-en_GB.pdf' (because it runs xelatex the requisite number of times to resolve the cross-references).
<ChrisWoollard> ok, thanks
<godbyk> Fresh builds should be up at http://builds.ubuntu-manual.org/.
<ChrisWoollard> I found those
<ChrisWoollard> According to that I only have 5 warnings
<ChrisWoollard> I also notice that the de trans has 0 errors and 0 warnings. That is impressive
<ChrisWoollard> 1 warning is Package polyglossia Warning: File gloss-UKenglish.ldf does not exist!
<ChrisWoollard>  I will nevertheless try to use hyphenation patterns for UKenglish. on input li
<ChrisWoollard> ne 188.
<godbyk> Yeah, you don't have to worry about that one.
<humphreybc-mini> herrow
<dutchie> hi humphreybc-mini
<ChrisWoollard> You sound like elmer fudd
<humphreybc-mini> who does?
<dutchie> you, i think
<humphreybc-mini> oh
<humphreybc-mini> lol
<ChrisWoollard> :)
<humphreybc-mini> so someone offered to buy a domain for us
<dutchie> so you like starting your sentences with "so"
<humphreybc-mini> ah, he's here now :)
<humphreybc-mini> veetmo: :)
<humphreybc-mini> I got your email!
<humphreybc-mini> dutchie: yeah, must be an NZ thing
<veetmo> great
<dutchie> humphreybc-mini: no, it's just an annoying thing
<humphreybc-mini> haha
<humphreybc-mini> I'll do it more often then if it annoys you Josh
<dutchie> humphreybc-mini: that's mean
<humphreybc-mini> veetmo: so the only domain we need at the moment, well, not *need* but we'd like to have it, would be quickshot.org
<humphreybc-mini> dutchie: (see what I did there?)
<dutchie> humphreybc-mini: i'm going to ignore that
<dutchie> humphreybc-mini: what happened to the OMGU podcast then? ;)
<humphreybc-mini> dutchie: So I've got exams over the next couple of weeks
<humphreybc-mini> hence it's not happening till after them
<dutchie> humphreybc-mini: yeah, me too
<humphreybc-mini> BUT it's coming back!
<dutchie> humphreybc-mini: do you see me doing revision?
<humphreybc-mini> No but you're a smart arse
<dutchie> humphreybc-mini: yay, more opportunities to laugh at your accent
<humphreybc-mini> You're going to Oxford you cock
<dutchie> the exams are very hard :(
<veetmo> humphreybc-mini: ok, if you find a good option let me know, preferably by mail...as i need to go to sleep...
<dutchie> and I do have to actually do well also
<humphreybc-mini> Anyway, after your exams, you will have more time to work on UMP - specifically our lovely bug reporting form, yes?
<humphreybc-mini> veetmo: I'll hunt around! Thankyou so much!
<dutchie> the bug reporting form is working, thank you very much
<dutchie> there are a few todo items
<humphreybc-mini> dutchie: howcome it's not on our site then?
<humphreybc-mini> :P
<veetmo> humphreybc-mini: my pleasure ;)
<dutchie> humphreybc-mini: bugs.ubuntu-manual.org
 * humphreybc-mini waits for the page to load
<dutchie> hmm, that doesn't seem to be up
<humphreybc-mini> no it's working
<humphreybc-mini> Looks... lovely
<dutchie> i'm not a designe
<dutchie> r
<humphreybc-mini> Can I report something?
<dutchie> yes
<humphreybc-mini> I know I know, I'm taking the piss
<humphreybc-mini> I'm sure daker can make it look beautiful when we incorporate it into the redesign
<dutchie> there's a resdisign happeneing?
<dutchie> I don't think it actually includes the suggestion in the bug report yet
<humphreybc-mini> yeah I'm making our site look nicer, not happy with it as it is :)
<humphreybc-mini> it's not exactly a huge priority though
#ubuntu-manual 2010-06-08
<humphreybc-mini> okay
<humphreybc-mini> i'm off
<humphreybc-mini> night, dutchie
<ChrisWoollard> Good night all.
<humphreybc> awh
<humphreybc> did I break it dutchie?
<humphreybc> he's not here
<humphreybc> lol
<dutchie> humphreybc-mini: you're back!
<nisshh> humphreybc: liked your rant about ubuntu on omgubuntu yesterday :)
<godbyk> Hey, daker.  How hard is it to add more manuals to the website (for when we start releasing the translated versions)?
<daker> i am working on
<daker> using the xml file
<daker> godbyk, http://paste.ubuntu.com/446387/
<godbyk> Cool.
<godbyk> We can probably simplify the xml a little bit.
<daker> feel free to do anything
<daker> just found that http://code.google.com/p/openbookplatform/
<daker> ping humphreybc,
<daker> godbyk, wiki+book = http://wookicentral.com
<epkugelmass> godbyk, daker, could we have a meeting soon to talk about l-e2 and m? we really don't have a lot of time...
<epkugelmass> i will try my best to make it =]
<godbyk> epkugelmass: Yeah, I'd like to have a meeting soon, too.  I'll see if I can set one up.
<epkugelmass> thanks godbyk
<godbyk> No problem.
<godbyk> In the meantime, are there any specific questions or issues I can try to help with?
<godbyk> daker: That site looks pretty neat.
<epkugelmass> godbyk, are we going to get a release schedule for e2? when are the specifications for m going to be drafted? who's going to assign work to the authors (like myself)? what's the release schedule for m? I figure we need to have a beta release out by 9/1/10 at the latest.
<godbyk> Let me find the release schedules that humpreybc and I drafted.
<godbyk> We'll have to adjust the schedule for Maverick if they've decided to move the release date around on us.
<epkugelmass> the release date is 10/10/10
<godbyk> Yeah, we'll have to adjust our M schedule then.
<godbyk> For the 10.04 second edition, it looks like we have 29 July as the release date.
<daker> godbyk, is there any way to parse the xml file very quickly
<daker> in php
<godbyk> daker: I'm sure there is. Let me look.
<godbyk> If not, we could always just put the data into a mysql database.
<daker> oki
<godbyk> daker: it looks like SimpleXML is the easier way (for our small xml file): http://us2.php.net/manual/en/book.simplexml.php
<daker> oki i'll try to write something
<godbyk> Ha! Google just turned this up: http://7zoom.com/www.ubuntu-manual.org
<daker> we are 192,600
<daker> http://7zoom.com/www.facebook.com
<daker> & google is nÂ°1
<daker> http://7zoom.com/www.google.com
<daker> Site Worth:	$20,046 not bad :p
<daker> Where is ubuntujenkins ?
<daker> he should see "Exam" the movie
<daker> oki see you, time to sleep
<ubuntujenkins> morning all
<nisshh> ubuntujenkins: yo
<ubuntujenkins> hey nisshh
<nisshh> whats up?
 * nisshh is doing some browser bookmark sorting and adding
<ubuntujenkins> uni wor
<ubuntujenkins> uni work
<nisshh> uh, not uni :(
<ubuntujenkins> its ok just bored of revising now
<nisshh> hehe
<nisshh> my cuz is doing exams right now too
<ubuntujenkins> only a week left, then loads of quickshot and manual stuff
<nisshh> same with me, im pretty busy until about july
<nisshh> mostly non-computer stuff unfortunantly
<ubuntujenkins> godbyk: the tmail one on builds.ubuntu-manual.org looks really cool
<ubuntujenkins> nisshh: :(
 * dutchie should be revising, but is instead backing up the windows laptop :(
 * ubuntujenkins should also be revising but is trying to persuade fedora 13 64bit to install on a virtual machine
<dutchie> is it a 64 bit host?
<ubuntujenkins> yep
<ubuntujenkins> it alsways locks
<ubuntujenkins> it always locks up towards the end of the install
<dutchie> :(
<dutchie> sure am glad i've got an ssd
<dutchie> lots and lots of disk access, and it's utterly silent
<ubuntujenkins> every other distro i have done works. an ssd would help my laptop gets very hot
<ubuntujenkins> and the noise of course
<dutchie> this laptop has no moving parts
<ubuntujenkins> show off
<ubuntujenkins> who is your vps hosting with?
<dutchie> bitfolk
<dutchie> .com
<ubuntujenkins> hmm, Their charges for extra disk space are quite allot. I would like a remote back up location
<dutchie> you wouldn't buy a VPS for remote backups
<ubuntujenkins> what would you get? I know nothing about servers
<dutchie> something like http://rsync.net/ or amazon S3
<thorwil> just wanted to point to rsync.net, too :)
<ubuntujenkins> ok thanks, I will have a look
<ubuntujenkins> ok I better start working be back in awhile 0/
<vish> daker: hi, could you pretty up this progress bar > https://wiki.ubuntu.com/OperationCleansweep , similar to the one we used for the manual?
<daker> i'll do it for you, but not for now
<vish> daker: sure , not immediately ;) ..  could you join #ubuntu-reviews , dholbach is there we can talk more about it ?
<dutchie> godbyk: style question on ML
<godbyk> dutchie: thanks.  I replied.  for the second time. :)
<dutchie> heh
<daker> godbyk, i have an idea
<daker> what about making a timeline
<godbyk-sagan> Hey, daker.  Timeline foe what?
<dutchie> sagan?
<dutchie> (I'm sure i've asked that before)
<godbyk-sagan> dutchie: You have.  'sagan' is the name of my laptop.
<godbyk-sagan> sagan is my laptop, feynman is my desktop, newton is my mythtv box.
<godbyk-sagan> I'll have to come up with a new name for my netbook that's coming soon.
 * dutchie wonders if godbyk can work out what my naming scheme is
<dutchie> "rigel" on the laptop, "alcor" on the netbook, and "polaris" is the server
<daker> godbyk-sagan, a timeline for our project
<godbyk-sagan> dutchie: Wow.. using stars means you can have a lot of PCs. :)
<dutchie> well, there are only so many with names
<dutchie> but there's still plenty of room :)
<dutchie> godbyk-sagan: hawking
<dutchie> need moar brits
<godbyk-sagan> dutchie: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_proper_names_of_stars
<godbyk-sagan> And when you run out of names, you can just start using their designations.
<daker> godbyk-sagan, like this http://www.google.com/corporate/timeline/#start
<dutchie> could get tricky remembering the long numbers
<godbyk-sagan> daker: cool. have we been around long enough to have a timeline?
<dutchie> HR 8799 is not hugely memorable
<godbyk-sagan> dutchie: true.  kind of like ip addresses. ;-)
<godbyk-sagan> "Hey, dutchie, did you reboot HR 8799 yet?"
<daker> godbyk-sagan, no :D
<dutchie> godbyk-sagan: "No, I meant HR 7899!"
<daker> take a look http://www.google.com/search?rls=en&q=world+cup&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8
<vish> godbyk-sagan: pff , always the spoil sport ;p
<vish> " have we been around long enough to have a timeline?"
<godbyk-sagan> vish: :)
<godbyk-sagan> Ubuntu Manual Project Timeline
<godbyk-sagan> 2010: Released first edition of Getting Started with Ubuntu 10.04.
<godbyk-sagan> End of Ubuntu Manual Project Timeline
<godbyk-sagan> :)
<vish> lol
<daker> LOL
 * ubuntujenkins is bored of revision
<c7p> hey godbyk-sagan what's up?
<godbyk-sagan> Hey, c7p. Right now I'm trying to figure out of I can combine a bunch of C++ classes into one class with configuration.
<godbyk-sagan> Terribly exciting, no? :
<godbyk-sagan> :)
<godbyk-sagan> (Went all Cheshire cat there for a moment.)
<c7p> wow :p
<daker> godbyk-sagan, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YG5qDeWHNmk
<daker> very good physics engine
 * ubuntujenkins procrastinates and looks at xindy
<daker> ubuntujenkins, you didn't finished your exams ?
<ubuntujenkins> no daker a week to day two more left
<ubuntujenkins> !seen shrini
<manualbot> I have no seen command
<daker> \o/
<ubuntujenkins> quickshotdevs has a seen command but I keep shutting my laptop down to avoid distractions
<ubuntujenkins> godbyk: do you know anything about tamil? from what i can gather combing a constant and vowel gives you a letter that is different to the ones you used to put it together. this is a good example http://www.thetamillanguage.com/cvchart.html
<ubuntujenkins> It does make the index rather fun to try
<c7p> night all
<ubuntujenkins> night all
#ubuntu-manual 2010-06-09
<thorwil> this does wonders for text on the web: http://code.google.com/p/hyphenator/
<nisshh> heh, booted up debian stable in a vm, thought "debian is gonna be rcok solid, yea!", got a kernel panic first try
<nisshh> rock*
<ubuntujenkins> shrini: ping
<shrini> ubuntujenkins: pong
<shrini> :-)
<ubuntujenkins> shrini: i AM GOING TO TRY AND SORT OUT YOUR index for the manual. Can you provide me with a list of all the letters in the tamil aplhabet and the order they shoudl apear in .(sorry for the caps)
<shrini> sure
<ubuntujenkins> Thanks, If i understand correctly there are a lot of letters. http://www.thetamillanguage.com/cvchart.html
<shrini> ubuntujenkins: right
<ubuntujenkins> I don't know if I will get the index working first time. I have to learn how to write the rules that make it.
<shrini> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tamil_script
<shrini> Tamil compound table
<shrini> is the collection of all letters in tamil
<ubuntujenkins> do you have capital equivilents of letters? What order should the index be in? In english we have abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz
<ubuntujenkins> I make it 216 letters in total
<shrini> right
<shrini> Tamil compound table
<shrini> in that table
<shrini> à® à® à® à® à® à® à® à® à® à® à® à®
<shrini> is the first order
<shrini> then
<shrini> à® à®à®¾ à®à®¿ à®à¯ à®à¯ à®à¯ à®à¯ à®à¯ à®à¯ à®à¯ à®à¯ à®à¯
<shrini> 2nd row, 3rd row, 4 th row... go like this
<shrini> skip the first column
<shrini> Consonants â
<shrini> Consonants â - skip this column
<ubuntujenkins> ok makes sense so far
<shrini> ubuntujenkins: :-)
<ubuntujenkins> do the consonants ever start a word?
<shrini> yes
<shrini> ubuntujenkins: wait. what do you mean? example?
<ubuntujenkins> does à®à¯ this ever start a word (fisrt letter in the constant column)
<ubuntujenkins> if it does it needs a place in the index
<shrini> ubuntujenkins: no.
<shrini> à®à¯ wont start a word
<ubuntujenkins> ok and I asume it is the same for every letter in the constant column
<shrini> same applicable to letters in first column
<ubuntujenkins> ok thanks. What are the capital letters? like A is the capital of a
<shrini> no
<shrini> we dont have like that
<ubuntujenkins> thats ok I will have a go at making an index.  Thanks for you help
<shrini> ubuntujenkins: thanks a lot for your kind help
<ubuntujenkins> no problem, lets see if i can write this code correctly :)
<shrini> :-)
<ubuntujenkins> shrini: are there any special characters in english they are ! ? . - '
<ubuntujenkins> does anything like this appear at the start of tamil words?
<shrini> ubuntujenkins: no
<ubuntujenkins> ok thanks
<shrini> ok
<ubuntujenkins> do symbols such as  ! ? . - ' appear in the tamil alphabet? or other symbols that are not the letters in the chart
<shrini> they are special charectors
<shrini> just like english
<shrini> no difference
<ubuntujenkins> yey that makes that bit easy
<ubuntujenkins> godbyk: ping
<ubuntujenkins> shrini: what about numbers?
<shrini> same
<shrini> no diff
<ubuntujenkins> thats good
<shrini> :-)
<ubuntujenkins> wow the uni internet is FAST http://www.speedtest.net/result/841891929.png
<jcisio> hello
<jcisio> in e1-lucid string 284
<jcisio> there is a {panes} that should be something else
<jcisio> for the ease of search: Opening multiple \application{Nautilus} windows can be useful for dragging files and folders between locations. The option of \emph{tabs} is also available in \application{Nautilus}, as well as the use of {panes}.
<ubuntujenkins> I will be back soon, I have written a script that sorts the list of alphabet into part of the rule so hopefully this index is getting there
<shrini> wow
<shrini> thnx
<ubuntujenkins> godbyk: ping
 * ubuntujenkins goes to the uni library to get "The LaTeX companion"
<daker> haha
<daker> ubuntujenkins, you see "Exam 2010"
<daker> shoudl*
<daker> should*
 * ubuntujenkins is back now to read more on xindy
<ubuntujenkins> \join #latex
<ubuntujenkins> its a / then :)
<dutchie> hi godbyk
<dutchie> or godbyk-sagan
<godbyk-sagan> Hey, dutchie
<godbyk-sagan> How's it going?
<dutchie> not too bad
<dutchie> have wasted this evening though
<dutchie> should definitely have revised for my exam on Friday
<dutchie> but I managed to get through the one I had today \o/
 * ubuntujenkins does not know where to save this xindy stuff I have done
<ubuntujenkins> hence I don't know if it is correct
<godbyk-sagan> dutchie: sounds like most my evenings. :)
<godbyk-sagan> Whee!  I just got my new netbook.
<godbyk-sagan> I also got the new case for my new computer.
 * godbyk-sagan blew a ton of money this weekend on computer stuff.
<dutchie> what netbook?
<godbyk-sagan> this one: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B003D1DZBY/ref=oss_product
 * ubuntujenkins would like a big computer my laptop kinda dies if i try and do loads
<dutchie> i would like a laptop whose power supply has not exploded
<godbyk-sagan> My laptop and computer are both 4 years old and are on their last legs.
<godbyk-sagan> So I'm building a new PC (components arriving tomorrow).
<godbyk-sagan> I also bought a netbook to take along with me to the TeX conference.
<godbyk-sagan> We'll see what Ubuntu thinks of it.
<daker> guys!! what do you think http://imagebin.org/100680
<ubuntujenkins> thats cool, can we remove the top left logo?
<godbyk-sagan> what's the top-left logo, anyway?
<ubuntujenkins> ubuntu review gadget thats what the bottom says
<daker> https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-reviewers
<daker> it's for the ubuntu reviewers
<godbyk-sagan> Hmm.. it always bugs me when I see typos in the chintzy booklets they send with new electronics these days.
<ubuntujenkins> how do i use echo to add something to the end of a line?
<godbyk-sagan> ubuntujenkins: can you be more specific?
<ubuntujenkins> godbyk-sagan: I have a list of tamil letters that are one line per letter i need to run them into a list like this "a" "b" "c" etc. They start like this
<ubuntujenkins> a
<ubuntujenkins> b
<ubuntujenkins> c
<godbyk-sagan> ubuntujenkins: oh.  try "cat myfile.txt | xargs | sed 's/\s+//g'
<godbyk-sagan> might have to fiddle with the sed bit. not sure what will get escaped and what won't
<godbyk-sagan> ubuntujenkins: put a \ in front of the +.
<godbyk-sagan> then it should work.
<godbyk-sagan> cat myfile.txt | xargs | sed 's/\s\+//g'
<ubuntujenkins> doesn't add the " " around the letters . but that does change it into a line
<godbyk-sagan> oh, right. sorry.
<ubuntujenkins> what differnce does the \ make? It looks like the letters are closer?
<ubuntujenkins> no problem
<ubuntujenkins> I would be stuck with out your bash skills
<godbyk-sagan> cat myfile.txt | xargs | sed -e 's/^/"/' -e 's/\s\+/" "/g' -e 's/$/"/'
 * dutchie blinks
<ubuntujenkins> wow sweet thanks godbyk-sagan
<godbyk-sagan> Well, the s/foo/bar/ command will replace (Substitute) foo with bar.
<godbyk-sagan>  \s refers to 'white space' -- that is, spaces, tabs, etc.
<dutchie> ngiht folks
<godbyk-sagan>  and the + modifier (which has to be escaped in this case \+, matches one or more spaces.
<ubuntujenkins> night dutchie
<godbyk-sagan> g'night, dutchie
<godbyk-sagan> in the new set of expressions, the ^ char matches the beginning of a line and the $ char matches the end of a line.
<ubuntujenkins> ok thanks godbyk-sagan
<godbyk-sagan> so it's replacing the beginning of the line with a quote
<godbyk-sagan> replaces the end of the line with a quote
<godbyk-sagan> and replaces the spaces with quote-space-quote.
<godbyk-sagan> there's probably simpler ways to do it, but that was the first one that popped into my head. :)
 * ubuntujenkins thinks the more i look at xindy the more confused I get
<ubuntujenkins> night all
<daker> good night ubuntujenkins
#ubuntu-manual 2010-06-10
<daker> godbyk, can we run a django site on our server ?
<daker> godbyk-sagan, can we run a django site on our server ?
<daker> did any one know how can i make a menu like this http://imagebin.org/100693
<daker> ?
<daker> humphreybc-mini, http://imagebin.org/100680
<humphreybc> daker: so what's that image?
<daker> euh, for that https://wiki.ubuntu.com/OperationCleansweep
<humphreybc> groovy
<humphreybc> did you make it?
<daker> yeah
<humphreybc> have you sent it to Daniel
<humphreybc> ?
<humphreybc> Email it to him :)
<humphreybc> daniel.holbach@canonical.com
<daker> i am waiting for him
<humphreybc> ah okay
<daker> i am working on something like that http://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2010/05/facebook-notifier-ubuntu-messaging-menu.html
<humphreybc> :)
<daker> actualy i can fetch notifications (pokes, messages, etc), uploads pictures, fetching albums
<humphreybc> I'm just about to start making some advertisements for USLC
<humphreybc> you rock daker
<daker> YEAH
<godbyk-sagan> humphreybc: advertisements?
<humphreybc> oh shit I just realised I need to schedule a meeting for this weekend
<godbyk-sagan> humphreybc: yeah, you do! :)
<humphreybc> godbyk-sagan: yeah, just banners for posts and things on OMG and the planet to attract attention so we can get some developers
 * humphreybc does that now
<humphreybc> gimme some agenda items
<humphreybc> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-manual/Meetings
<humphreybc> Just add whatever you think we need to talk about
<daker> humphreybc, have you finished the new mockups ?
<humphreybc> daker: No sorry, not yet. Been busy with exams :)
<daker> no problem
<humphreybc> I'll have em done in a couple of weeks
<godbyk-sagan> we need to talk about lucid-e1 translation releases
<godbyk-sagan> lucid-e2 stuff
<humphreybc> add that then :)
<godbyk-sagan> maybe even maverick stuff.
<nisshh> dammit, humphreybc i wont make it to a saturday night meeting
<nisshh> only night im going to a party and we have a meeting on, how freaking typical
<godbyk-sagan> nisshh: Guess you'll have to reschedule your party so you can attend ours. :)
<humphreybc> hahaha
<nisshh> godbyk-sagan: haha, funny
<nisshh> oh that reminds me godbyk-sagan there is a question on launchpad that is still unanswered, its about when the german of e1 will be released, apparently its completed
<godbyk-sagan> I think I've answered that question in various places about a bazillion times now. :)
<nisshh> hehe
<humphreybc> maybe you should register www.isthegermantranslationoftheubuntumanualdoneyet.com
<nisshh> your not ranting are you?
<godbyk-sagan> humphreybc: lol. no doubt. :)
<nisshh> humphreybc: lol
<godbyk-sagan> nisshh: me? never! :)
<godbyk-sagan> nisshh: Just don't be the next person to ask me about it. <grin>
<nisshh> humphreybc: i saw your rant on omgubuntu the other day
<nisshh> godbyk-sagan: hehe, dont worry i fear thee :)
 * nisshh fears the wrath of godbyk-sagan 
<humphreybc> http://humphreybc.homeip.net/files/uslc-ad.png
<godbyk-sagan> humphreybc: pff! :)
<daker> can you the dark color ?
<daker> change
<humphreybc> refresh
<daker> neat
<daker> :)
<humphreybc> Do you like the font colours?
<humphreybc> Surprisingly, that's not actually the new Ubuntu font
<humphreybc> That's a commercial font called "Corisande" that looks awfully similar
<humphreybc> refresh and you'll see the new ubuntu font instead
<daker> great
<daker> godbyk-sagan, you didn't answer my question
<daker> can we run a django site on our server ?
<humphreybc> http://humphreybc.homeip.net/files/uslc-ad2.png
<daker> good
<humphreybc> daker: after we redesign the new site, I want to have this image as the "splash screen" of the site when people visit: http://humphreybc.homeip.net/files/uslc-ad2.png
<daker> oki
<humphreybc> actually daker, if you want you can put this in front of the current website now
<humphreybc> http://humphreybc.homeip.net/files/uslc-web.png
<godbyk-sagan> humphreybc: I wouldn't put that on the main site yet.
<godbyk-sagan> I think it'd confuse the newbies that we try to attract to our site.
<godbyk-sagan> If you want to attract developers, post it in places where the developers hang out (which isn't our site).
<humphreybc> true
<humphreybc> I'll think about it
<humphreybc> :)
<godbyk-sagan> I'll think about overruling you. ;-)
<godbyk-sagan> Okay, so I've just finished installing Ubuntu Netbook Edition on my brand new netbook.
<godbyk-sagan> What should I do with it now?
<humphreybc> uninstall it
<daker> hhhhhhhhhhhhh
<humphreybc> seriously, it sucks
<humphreybc> you're better off using regular Ubuntu
<humphreybc> the window manager is terrible
<godbyk-sagan> yeah, I'm noticing that. :)
<godbyk-sagan> can I install the normal stuff from here or is it better if I just do a fresh install with the desktop edition?
<humphreybc> just remove the netbook edition stuff
<humphreybc> you already have GNOME anyway
<humphreybc> you can change it when you log in
<humphreybc> choose a different session :)
<humphreybc> but if you remove all the netbook shit, it will remove the netbook thing from the session list
<godbyk-sagan> do you remember the package name for the netbook stuff?
<humphreybc> nah
<humphreybc> just search synaptic for netbook
<humphreybc> remove anything associated :)
<godbyk-sagan> netbook-launcher, I think.
<humphreybc> yeah
<humphreybc> you'l have to remove the netbook default settings and stuff too
<godbyk-sagan> uninstalling
<godbyk-sagan> yeah, I saw those, too.
<humphreybc> Hmm
<humphreybc> I can't decide... rounded corners or sharp corners
<godbyk-sagan> Okay, I've got my GNOME desktop again.  Yay!
<godbyk-sagan> you're already using multiple drop shadows. :)
<humphreybc> no not for that
<humphreybc> Lemme show you :)
<humphreybc> drop shadows make awesome subtle framing
<humphreybc> ok
<humphreybc> http://humphreybc.homeip.net/files/rounded.png or http://humphreybc.homeip.net/files/sharp.png
<daker> the first one
<daker> is better
<humphreybc> I was thinking we could have it slide out when the mouse goes up there
<humphreybc> Just need to figure out how the user will know about it
<humphreybc> Maybe have it popped out for about 30 seconds when they first visit the site, then it slides away
<godbyk-sagan> I think our definitions of the word 'subtle' must differ. ;-)
<humphreybc> what do you think about the sliding action Kevin?
<godbyk-sagan> I like the first one better (rounded corners).  But the drop-shadow on the non-rounded corners just looks wrong.
<godbyk-sagan> I think it needs to be a lot more discoverable than that.
<humphreybc> yeah, I know
<godbyk-sagan> I mean search is going to be probably the primary way people will find info on that site.
<godbyk-sagan> So I'd have a big ol' search box smack in the middle of the page or something. :)
<humphreybc> That's why I reckon it could pop down for the first 30 seconds when they visit a page
<humphreybc> and then slide up
<godbyk-sagan> Btw, isn't 'About Us' and 'The Team' the same thing?
<godbyk-sagan> nah, I don't think it'll be noticeable enough.
<humphreybc> we could just have a very large activation area
<humphreybc> I could make it orange?
<godbyk-sagan> the whole page is pseudo-animated when it's loading anyway, if your connection is slower.
<humphreybc> Well, The Team is the credits of people who have contributed, whereas about us is more about the history of the TEAM and what the team does, where you can find us etc. I might change "The Team" wording to "Credits" or "Contributors" or something.
<humphreybc> Of course, it doesn't HAVE to pop out
<humphreybc> I just thought that could be neat :P
<humphreybc> So we like the rounded one?
<daker> i like it
<daker> one thing for the link should be reversed we hover it
<humphreybc> Now to figure out where to put our social media links like facebook and twitter
<daker> something like this http://static.ak.fbcdn.net/rsrc.php/z7VU4/hash/66ad7upf.png
<humphreybc> Hmm
<humphreybc> Where to put the facebook and twitter icons
<daker> in the trash :p
<humphreybc> ol
<humphreybc> lol
<humphreybc> I honestly have no idea where to put them
<daker> for twitter put it on the left of the search bar
<daker> or on the bottom
<humphreybc> what ever happened to the show us ya bugs competition?
<humphreybc> I had one person email me telling me they got 10 reported and confirmed
<daker> Ya time to sleep
<daker> good night
<humphreybc> see ya daker!
<godbyk-sagan> humphreybc: well, it was your competition, so you should know. :)
<godbyk-sagan> I just fixed bugs.
<nisshh> humphreybc: where is the new version of the website, so i can have a look
<nisshh> or is it not up on the net yet?
<humphreybc> nisshh: I'm still making it
<humphreybc> Give you a preview in a sec
<nisshh> cool
<nisshh> maybe i can find a place for that damn twitter button?
<humphreybc> haha
<nisshh> actually, arent we on identica too?
<humphreybc> yeah
<humphreybc> but no one uses that... cough
 * nisshh puts his hand up!
<nisshh> i do!
<nisshh> i heard the perfect description of twitter the other day
<nisshh> it was: "twitter is full of spammers, retards and advertising businesses"
 * humphreybc should be studying for his exam
<nisshh> hehe
 * nisshh should be doing college work
<nisshh> hows that preview coming along?
<nisshh> humphreybc: ^^
<nisshh> humphreybc: http://identi.ca/group/twitterfails
<humphreybc> ready to be amazed?
 * nisshh gets excited
<humphreybc> http://humphreybc.homeip.net/files/ump-index.png
<humphreybc> http://humphreybc.homeip.net/files/ump-about.png
<humphreybc> oop
<humphreybc> oops
<humphreybc> nope
<humphreybc> nevermind!
 * nisshh is confused
<humphreybc> how?
<humphreybc> they're only mockups :)
<nisshh> no its not that, you said oops right after
<humphreybc> oh
<humphreybc> yeah
<humphreybc> I forgot to clear my cache
<humphreybc> so it looked like my new changes hadn't worked
<humphreybc> but then I realized :)
<nisshh> ah
<humphreybc> hence the nevermind
<nisshh> so they are the latest mockups?
<humphreybc> yep
<humphreybc> fresh outta photoshop :P
<nisshh> cool
<godbyk-sagan> I think we should drop the features list from the front page and replace it with newsy stuff.
<humphreybc> godbyk-sagan: yeah, maybe
<humphreybc> or at least until we actually get some features
<nisshh> humphreybc: features list on the download page?
<godbyk-sagan> on the index page
<godbyk-sagan> http://humphreybc.homeip.net/files/ump-index.png
<nisshh> after it starts downloading it gives you a summary of the features or somthing
<godbyk-sagan> the features there are useless. they're not meaningful to our intended audience.
<nisshh> no, i was suggesting moving it
<godbyk-sagan> oh
<nisshh> like "heres your pdf and here are some cool facts about it
<nisshh> "
<nisshh> humphreybc: i like the twitter feed thing down the bottom left, how did you do that?
<godbyk-sagan> nisshh: he created a textbox and typed in some text. ;-)
<godbyk-sagan> it's just a mockup in photoshop
<nisshh> godbyk-sagan: oh yea i forgot, ok let me rephrase that, humphreybc how are you going to do that?
<nisshh> humphreybc: also, what about putting the twitter and facebook icons under that twitter feed thing
<nisshh> so it mirrors the bottom right kind of
<nisshh> also the "We need you!" sounds a bit desperate
<nisshh> you may as well say "You better fucking contribute!"
<nisshh> ffs, my isp is being a bitch today
<godbyk-sagan> my net connection is being finicky right now, too.
<godbyk-sagan> not sure what's up
<nisshh> i can always blame it on my isp now since i use opendns for my dns lookups now
<humphreybc> I like it how you forgot it was a mockup
<humphreybc> it looks SO good :P
<humphreybc> the twitter thing is easy, it's just an RSS feed
<humphreybc> same as how boxee does it: http://www.boxee.tv/
<humphreybc> I want to highlight the social sites, ie, somewhere near the top
<nisshh> ah ok
<humphreybc> there are already links on the bottom right
<nisshh> yea i saw them after i said my suggestion
<humphreybc> godbyk-sagan: do you like the better name for the credits area?
<godbyk-sagan> it's still hard to know the diff between 'about us' (given its tagline) and contributors (given its tagline)
<humphreybc> yeah
<humphreybc> suggestions?
<humphreybc> Also, I want to clean up the instructions page
<humphreybc> Maybe we could have help overlays, like launchpad, instead of redirecting to a new page for each role
<nisshh> humphreybc: see my suggestion above about the contributors tagline
<humphreybc> Of course, the taglines are just what came out of my brain when I was trying to fill in those spaces
<humphreybc> they're not essential to the design, and they can be easily changed :D
<godbyk-sagan> right
<godbyk-sagan> So the 'About Us' page is about the project, and the 'Contributors' page is just the list of credits?
<humphreybc> yes
<humphreybc> same as the current site
<humphreybc> go look at the current site :D
<godbyk-sagan> Maybe 'About Us' should have the tagline 'What we do'.
<humphreybc> Yeah
<humphreybc> that sounds better
<godbyk-sagan> And 'Contributors' could have 'Who we are'
 * humphreybc changes
<humphreybc> okay
<humphreybc> and what about for Download and Get Involved?
<humphreybc> bear in mind that vish is going to give me some better icons soon, too.
<godbyk-sagan> sure
<godbyk-sagan> let's see..
<godbyk-sagan> Download: Our free manual
<godbyk-sagan> Get Involved: How you can help
<humphreybc> I was hoping for slightly more enthusiastic imperatives here
<godbyk-sagan> yeah, I'm thinking..
<humphreybc> Advertising 101?
<godbyk-sagan> (and trying to config my netbook at the same time.. so much to do!)
<humphreybc> ha
<godbyk-sagan> 'download' and 'get involved' are already imperatives.
<humphreybc> tue.
<humphreybc> true*
<humphreybc> maybe they need an exclamation mark...
<godbyk-sagan> so the taglines for those don't have to be verbs.
<godbyk-sagan> lol
<godbyk-sagan> exclamation marks, drop shadows, animations, bling!
<humphreybc> yes!
<godbyk-sagan> you could have the download arrow spin in circles
<humphreybc> although not outer glows.
<humphreybc> they're hidious
<godbyk-sagan> lol
<humphreybc> hideous *
<humphreybc> hahaha
<humphreybc> yes
<godbyk-sagan> oh, that's where you draw the line, eh?
<humphreybc> I could have some exciting black/white flashing at 500 FPS
<godbyk-sagan> see how epileptic fits we can induce?
<humphreybc> yep
<godbyk-sagan> ah, man. I'm gonna have to go to sleep soon if I'm going to be up in time for that ayatana meeting.
<godbyk-sagan> I should adjust my availability time for that.
<godbyk-sagan> getting up for a 7 a.m. meeting isn't fun.
<godbyk-sagan> sadly, after that meeting, I have another meeting at 9:30.
<godbyk-sagan> I can't win.
<humphreybc> I aint gonna be there, exam tomorrow
<humphreybc> well
<humphreybc> I might be if i'm still around
<humphreybc> but I'm going to try to go to sleep early
<godbyk-sagan> I was half awake during the last one, but stay in bed.
<godbyk-sagan> just read the messages on my phone as they came by.
<godbyk-sagan> :)
<nisshh> what do you guys think of my blogs new look: https://freakaboutlinux.wordpress.com/
<godbyk-sagan> great. I can't remember my launchpad pwd.
<nisshh> godbyk-sagan: hehe
<humphreybc> looks cool Ryan!
<humphreybc> not so keen on the red rollovers
<nisshh> they are a bit bright arent they?
<nisshh> blood red color
<nisshh> i dont think i can change that in css
<humphreybc> I don't think you need a diagonal line pattern on the selected page tab
<nisshh> humphreybc: its a preset theme
<humphreybc> Ohhh
<humphreybc> I thought you made it :D
<nisshh> hehe, i wish :)
<humphreybc> I like the stuff on the left
<nisshh> ill see what i can change with css
 * humphreybc likes it how my post is now rated 10/10 on omgubuntu
<nisshh> hehe, your rant, i thought that was cool
<nisshh> aw shit, i have to pay to have custom css on my blog
<humphreybc> oh yeah
<nisshh> no freaking way
<humphreybc> I remember that with wordpress :D
 * humphreybc is really overusing the :D smiley today
 * nisshh thinks humphreybc is a smiley fanboy
 * nisshh also just hit 200 pageviews thismorning
<humphreybc> yay!
<nisshh> yea, i suppose, thats 200 after 5 months of blogging
<nisshh> although 8 posts is not much
<nisshh> sorry 9 posts
<godbyk-sagan> Okay, I'm off to bed.
<nisshh> godbyk-sagan: ok, gnight
<humphreybc> nighy
 * nisshh is hungry, he goes foraging
<nisshh> humphreybc: are we going to hold another 48-hours irc event again?
<ubuntujenkins> morning all
<thorwil> good morning!
<ubuntujenkins> hello thorwil how are you?
<thorwil> ubuntujenkins: i'm fine, wrestling with html and css. and you?
<ubuntujenkins> thorwil: I am good got one more exam to do, playing with doing the index in tamil
<ubuntujenkins> humphreybc: please can you answer https://answers.launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual/+question/112203 I guess the most suitble would be when the editing is finished
<ubuntujenkins> I can think of a nice way to write that
<ubuntujenkins> godbyk and godbyk-sagan  I have e-mailed the xindy mailing list as there have been a few problems with the rules we shall see what they say
<daker> humphreybc, have you found a place for facebook & twitter icons ?
<thorwil> hi daker. have a look at http://code.google.com/p/hyphenator/, please. i'm using it for a site in development already and i think ubuntu-manual.org would benefit from it, too
<daker> haha
<daker> great  yes
<ubuntujenkins> humphreybc-mini: did you see my mention about that question on launchpad?
<humphreybc-mini> yes, briefly. Could you paste it again please?
<humphreybc-mini> and daker, nope, haven't worked on them again since you hit the sack :)
<ubuntujenkins> https://answers.launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual/+question/112203 thanks
<humphreybc-mini> Answered it
<ubuntujenkins> thanks humphreybc-mini
<ubuntujenkins> just read in #ubuntu "<Dr_Willis> I think they need to put a link to the ubuntu manual right in the middle of the desktop. :)"
<nisshh> hehe
<daker> haha
<godbyk-sagan> lol
<daker> look women website is very poor http://women.ubuntu.com/
<nisshh> daker: holy crap, that is terrible
<daker> yeah
<hannie> What is CTCP VERSION?
<nisshh> hannie: is the frigg bot asking you for it?
<hannie> Yes
<daker> hannie, http://freenode.net/faq.shtml#freenodeconnect
<hannie> Thanks, I'll read it
<nisshh> all it does is ask your irc client for its version and name
<nisshh> nothing to worry about really
<hannie> I won't ;)
<daker> nisshh, he must worry :)
<daker> CTCP request is very bad
<hannie> She
<daker> o.O sorry :)
<daker> she must worry
<hannie> I cannot find much help in the faq about this
<nisshh> lol, i had it requesting me for like 2 months, now its stopped
<nisshh> there is one paragraph that tells you what it does
<hannie> Update your client regularly to avoid security problems, and don't be too worried unless they're doing more than just CTCP VERSION, or doing it over and over.
<hannie> I use Qwebirq
<daker> * if you are running an old version, there is a good chance that it can be hacked
<daker> * by checking your CTCP version, they can 'guess' your operating system
<hannie> So I should update qwebirq?
<daker> no qwebirq is web apps
<hannie> Under Options I cannot find a way to turn off CTCP VERSION
<hannie> I will install another irc client then
<daker> yes with an irc client(like xchat) you can turn off them or just fake them
<hannie> Ok, thanks for your help. I am going to install xchat.
<daker> haha ubuntujenkins look http://bobbo.me.uk/
<ubuntujenkins> daker: I see a progress bar that looks like i have seen it before
<daker> \o/
<ubuntujenkins> how does the progress thing work?
<daker> should ask vish
<ubuntujenkins> ?mppa
<ubuntujenkins> ?mppa
<quickshotdevs> ubuntujenkins: Error: "mppa" is not a valid command.
<ubuntujenkins> ?manualppa
<quickshotdevs> ubuntujenkins: Error: "manualppa" is not a valid command.
<ubuntujenkins> ?mtppa
<quickshotdevs> ubuntujenkins: Error: "mtppa" is not a valid command.
<ubuntujenkins> ?tppa
<quickshotdevs> ubuntujenkins: Error: "tppa" is not a valid command.
<daker> ubuntujenkins, you will become crasy with quickshotdevs
<ubuntujenkins> I thought i tought it the manual latex ppa stuff now i can't rember the factoid
<vish> ubuntujenkins: daker is not human ;p
<daker> hhhhh
<daker> http://www.geekosystem.com/0888-888-888/
<daker> ubuntujenkins, http://bobbo.me.uk/index.php/planet-ubuntu/operation-cleansweep-day-four-update
<ubuntujenkins> daker: yey for the post
 * daker is on the planet
<daker> ubuntujenkins, did you know how can i make something like this http://imagebin.org/100693
<ubuntujenkins>  daker no not a clue you could probably use alacarte to make a custom menu but it would never look as good as that
<daker> i want to make an input inside a menuitem
<ubuntujenkins> i see i guess you could try and find the memenu code in launchpad
<ubuntujenkins> daker: https://code.edge.launchpad.net/indicator-me
<nisshh> daker: its probably a custom gtk widget
<daker> it's programmed with C
<daker> not python :s
<nisshh> daker: yea, gtk is written in C, it has a python wrapper
<nisshh> hence the python-gtk package
<daker> i was talking about the memenu
<nisshh> daker: ah, i take it you only know python then?
<daker> a little of python
<nisshh> no C?
<nisshh> anyway iv gotta get some sleep
<ubuntujenkins> night nisshh
<nisshh> cya dude
<daker> \o/
<daker> well the idea is to make GtkTextView in GtkMenu
<daker> how ? i don't know :)
<paultag> Hey manual hackers, I need a LaTeX guru who knows how to embed SVG in LaTeX, if they have time
<paultag> it's driving me up a wall :)
<ubuntujenkins> paultag: I am not our latex guru but http://amath.colorado.edu/documentation/LaTeX/reference/figures.html at the bottom appears to make sense . What have you tried so far?
<paultag> when you do an   \includegraphics{*.svg} latex barfs
<dutchie> you probably need to \includepackage{graphicx} or some such
<paultag> ! LaTeX Error: Unknown graphics extension: .svg.
<manualbot> paultag: Error: I am only a bot, please don't think I'm intelligent :)
<paultag> dutchie, it includes pngs great
<paultag> ( and not I'm not using a literal *.svg, it's a path to the file, sans extention
<paultag> sorry, with extn
<dutchie> paultag: looks like you have to convert the svg into eps
<paultag> Grr. OK. Thanks dutchie
<c7p> night all
<dutchie> paultag: maybe see if godbyk-sagan can answer though. He's the real latex guru
<paultag> dutchie, sure, I'll just hang out and see if any gurus can shed some light. I'm not going anywhere :)
<paultag> dutchie, thank you for your time :)
<ubuntujenkins> yea I suggest converting it as well
<ubuntujenkins> paultag: there is a #latex on freenode by the way
<paultag> ubuntujenkins, I was recommended here by doctormo
<paultag> ubuntujenkins, noted. I won't bug ya'll any longer. Thanks again
 * ubuntujenkins thought it would be a quicker way to get an answer. I was not telling him to leave :/
<ubuntujenkins> pm'd him to say he is welcome to stay
<godbyk-sagan> D'oh! I missed him by 13 minutes.
<godbyk-sagan> In case I'm not around when he comes back:
<godbyk-sagan> I don't think the LaTeX can handle SVGs directly. They have to be transformed to eps or pdf.
<ubuntujenkins> godbyk-sagan: he said he might pm you in an hour if he did not work it out
<godbyk-sagan> Okay, that's cool.
<godbyk-sagan> I just got the parts for my new computer, so I'm trying to piece it together now.
<dutchie> "only" 6 exams left
<ubuntujenkins> oooo shiny
<ubuntujenkins> has only 1 exam left
 * godbyk-sagan has no exams left -- ever!  Whee!
<dutchie> total exam time: 1.5 + 2 + 3 + 1.5 + 3 + 2 = 13 hours
<ubuntujenkins> godbyk-sagan: I am in a mailing list discussion on making xindy-rules and were are gettting there. there is one issue of one part only supports about 200 letters and we have more in tamil. Not sure which bit it is yet I am trying to establish it
<godbyk-sagan> ubuntujenkins: Oh, wow! So it's a lot more of a pain than I anticipated.
<ubuntujenkins> godbyk-sagan: they are very helpful, also as far as i can tell there is no documenation about it. I found out all the stuff i know from old mailing list stuff.
<godbyk-sagan> Yeah, I thought there'd be more documentation, too.  They had kind of a quick overview on the web page, but I couldn't find links to the more detailed docs I expected to find.
<godbyk-sagan> Hopefully you're taking notes as you go along.
<godbyk-sagan> You'll notice that the number of languages xindy supports is far fewer than the number of translations people have started for our manual. :)
<ubuntujenkins> yea I did say I was happy to add our rules to their upstream so it gets back to the package eventually
 * ubuntujenkins wishes dutchie luck in his exams
<godbyk-sagan> ha! this doesn't bode well.
<godbyk-sagan> I'm flipping through the motherboard manual to make sure there's nothing important I'm forgetting.
<dutchie> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sBhOB7CfUoY !
<godbyk-sagan> and the music playing in the background switches to the Indiana Jones theme.
<ubuntujenkins> dutchie: that is crazy
<ubuntujenkins> night all
<daker> good night ubuntujenkins
#ubuntu-manual 2010-06-11
<ubuntujenkins> godbyk-sagan: http://ubuntuone.com/p/6jA/
<ubuntujenkins> this is me going to bed :)
<ubuntujenkins> some one on the mailing list did it I am going to work out what I didn't quite do right my stuff was very close
<ubuntujenkins> godbyk ^
<godbyk-sagan> ubuntujenkins: awesome!
<godbyk-sagan> yeah, we'll have to figure out how all that works since we'll be doing it for more languages.
<ubuntujenkins> I am not sure how to order aplications in english and stuff in tamil
<ubuntujenkins> I was very close with my stuff
<ubuntujenkins> I will diff the files to work out exactly where I went wrong. The only concern I have is I don't think all the letters are coverd for tamil yet
<godbyk-sagan> Ah, gotcha.
<godbyk-sagan> Yeah, and different languages have different collation rules.
<godbyk-sagan> (Some languages *cough*German*cough* have multiple sets of collation rules.)
<ubuntujenkins> I will work it out with shrini at the weekend
<godbyk-sagan> Awesome job so far, though!
<ubuntujenkins> thanks
<ubuntujenkins> what all i got wrong was two file names were slightly out makes sense
<ubuntujenkins> I was very close \0/
<ubuntujenkins> night all
<humphreybc-mini> ping flan or godbyk-sagan
<ubuntujenkins> morning all
<ubuntujenkins> shrini  http://ubuntuone.com/p/6kf/ . Please can you check for words that are ordered wrong. How do you want to order the english with the tamil? Not every character is supported yet (due to the alphabet being so long). I am working with the xindy guys to understand what needs to be done to support all of the letters.
<shrini> ubuntujenkins: thanks a lot
<shrini> looking
<shrini> ubuntujenkins: awesome work
<shrini> thanks
<ubuntujenkins> no problem shrini, Is there anything that needs changing? Even if it is a really small problem, I would like to get it correct
<shrini> ubuntujenkins: thanks a lot
<shrini> index is fine
<shrini> still some issues are there
<shrini> but they are spelling errors
<shrini> me only have to fix them all
<shrini> will will sit together tomottow
<shrini> and fix it in LP
<shrini> the left index panel shows japanese chars
<shrini> not tamil
<shrini> ubuntujenkins: please fix the left index pane
<ubuntujenkins> shrini: I will look into it I don't know how to do that bit yet
<shrini> :-)
<shrini> okey
<shrini> no hurries
<shrini> hope godby knows that
<shrini> on setting font
<ubuntujenkins> shrini: I will talk to him about it later
<ubuntujenkins> shrini: can you look at this please http://www.unicode.org/charts/PDF/U0B80.pdf and can you explain which order the letters are sorted in the alphabet please. The http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tamil_script#Tamil_in_Unicode table shows that all the the longer letters such as à®©à¯ -> 0B95 0BCD 0BB7 0BCC are converted into individual letters with its unicode code.
<shrini> ubuntujenkins: checking
<ubuntujenkins> because of this I only need to include the short letters in the rule for sorting.
<ubuntujenkins> again we get "<struhevol> that was helpfull did not know about that" .. "Dr_Willis> struhevol:  yea. they need to make a big icon pointing to that manual on the desktop :)"
<ubuntujenkins> shrini: what order should the letters go in then?
<hannie> Cannot find what Idots in ``Custom Message\ldots'' means. I suppose ...
<hannie> I translated this to Aangepast bericht...
<shrini> ubuntujenkins: sorry
<shrini> went on office work
<shrini>  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tamil_script#Tamil_in_Unicode
<shrini> use same order as i told some days before
<ubuntujenkins> godbyk-sagan: can we play ping pong when you want a break from working :)
<ubuntujenkins> hannie: with your last question the \ldots should stay I have not looked at what it does I will double check
<hannie> @ubuntujenkins Understood. I will leave /Idots in the translated text
<manualbot> hannie: Error: "ubuntujenkins" is not a valid command.
<hannie> ubuntujenkins: thanks, I will leave /Idots in the translated text.
<ubuntujenkins> hannie: no problem I does do three dots but it means if we want to change the style we can. sorry i could not answer earlyier
<hannie> That is ok
<ubuntujenkins> how is the transaltion going? What language are you doing?
<hannie> I am a Dutch translator
<hannie> We are at 39 % at the moment
<hannie> Are you a member of the manual team?
<ubuntujenkins> you are doing well. yes I am a member of the team I also do quickshot
<hannie> This chatroom is great, I always get answers to my questions
<hannie> bye
<ubuntujenkins> thats good we always like to help. bye
#ubuntu-manual 2010-06-12
<godbyk> Fresh builds are up at http://builds.ubuntu-manual.org/.
<humphreybc> http://twitpic.com/1w0ni3/full
<godbyk> nice
<godbyk> maybe offer some common destinations, too. (in addition to your search box note)
<humphreybc> I was going to, but then I realised there are big fat links up above, and below
<humphreybc> I'll keep thinking about it
<godbyk> yeah, I considered that, too.
<godbyk> ideally, I'd like it to analyze the url you're trying to get to and figure out where you're trying to go and link you there.
<godbyk> (easier said than done.)
<humphreybc> haha
<ubuntujenkins> morning
<thorwil> morning!
<ubuntujenkins> hey thorwil o/
<thorwil> hmm, i will have only a few minutes at the start of today's meeting
<ubuntujenkins> I will be busy revising and not pay loads of attention
<ubuntujenkins> c7p: how is the release of your translation going?
<c7p> ubuntujenkins: godbyk is working on the tex files, checking that everything is fine in there. In the same time he is making a list of everything that needs to be done before the release of a translated edition.
<c7p> I'm waiting today's meeting to learn the actual date :)
<ubuntujenkins> yea i have the link to the list of stuff. I am hoping to give godbyk  a hand with some of the next ones as I think we will have 4 at once soon
<c7p> ubuntujenkins: are you working going to work on this link: http://typewith.me/rE4pCABOXs or another ?
<ubuntujenkins> I do have that link I am going to try and speak with godby-k about what needs doing etc.
<c7p> ok if you need another hand I can always help ;)
<ubuntujenkins> cool I will let you know
<c7p> nice
<dns53> is there a server edition of the manual being worked on?
<ubuntujenkins> no there is not I am afraid
<ubuntujenkins> dns53: this might be of interest https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ubuntu-docs/+bug/497834
<manualbot> Launchpad bug 497834 in ubuntu-docs "Ubuntu Server Guide isn't aesthetically appealing." [Wishlist,Confirmed]
<ubuntujenkins> also the current server guide is https://help.ubuntu.com/10.04/serverguide/C/index.html
<dns53> thx
<ubuntujenkins> no problem :)
<ubuntujenkins> godbyk / godbyk-sagan ping
<godbyk-sagan> ubuntujenkins: I just got back home. Let me fix something for lunch and then I'll be right with you.
<ubuntujenkins> godbyk-sagan: cool no rush
<dutchie> godbyk-sagan: btw, you going down in RSA
<dutchie> :P
<ubuntujenkins> ras?
<dutchie> Republic of South Africa ;)
<ubuntujenkins> o yea your going down godbyk-sagan :P
<ubuntujenkins> \join #england
<godbyk> Uh-oh, what'd I do to the South Africans now?
<ubuntujenkins> usa vs england in the world cup
<godbyk> Aha
<godbyk> So you're talking about soccer? <evil grin>
<dutchie> no, real football
<dutchie> where you actually use your foot
<ubuntujenkins> no we are talking about football :P
<Zeike> they are talking about watching silly people run around a grass field kicking a ball around =P
<ubuntujenkins> godbyk I would like to discuss the process that the manual goes through after the translations are complete and what i can do to help.
<ubuntujenkins> when you have finished eating :)
<godbyk> Hey, ubuntujenkins. I'm back now.
<ubuntujenkins> hey godbyk
<godbyk> So I don't have a formal checklist yet. It's something that c7p and I have been taking notes on as we go along.
<godbyk> But we should create an actual checklist so we don't forget things.
<ubuntujenkins> cool I have the check list book marked.
<ubuntujenkins> is \ldots with a lower case l or i becasue in launchpad they look the same
<dutchie> l for line
<godbyk> It's a lowercase L.
<ubuntujenkins> thats what i thought allot of people are putting i
<godbyk> Yeah, they're wrong. :)
<dutchie> right
<dutchie> i'm watching the football
<ubuntujenkins> hmm the pad link i have does not work
<dutchie> bye
<ubuntujenkins> bye dutchie
<godbyk> See ya, dutchie.
<dutchie> 1-0 england \o/
<dutchie> within 4 mins
<godbyk> ubuntujenkins: Let me find my link to it again.
<ubuntujenkins> also the first {} in \newglossaryentry is often translated
<godbyk> Yeah, it shouldn't be.
<godbyk> Nor should the \gls and \glspl commands be translated.
<ubuntujenkins> I think those are the most commom mistakes that are not on the list already
<godbyk> Nor should the \label, \ref, pageref, \chaplink, \seclink, etc. commands be translated.
<ubuntujenkins> can we add it to the pad?
<godbyk> Sure, if you like.
<godbyk> Do you have the pad link?
<ubuntujenkins> I do but it doesn't work
<ubuntujenkins> http://www.typewith.me/rE4pCABOXs
<ubuntujenkins> acording to http://downorisitjustme.com/ the site is down
<godbyk> nice.
<godbyk> I thought I had one on Etherpad, but perhaps not.
<ubuntujenkins> do you have a local copy?
<godbyk> Nope.
<godbyk> Let's just create a new one.
<godbyk> We can update it with typewith.me comes back online.
<ubuntujenkins> yea cool , so apart from that list what else gets done.
<ubuntujenkins> http://pad.ubuntu-uk.org/translationtodo
<ubuntujenkins> that list looks good
<godbyk> That covers a lot of it.
<godbyk> I'm sure I'll add more things as I encounter them.
<godbyk> It'd be nice if we have a web page where the translator editors could go to see where they're at on the checklist or something.
<godbyk> So we can see how far along things are.
<ubuntujenkins> good idea we need to respond to surst's e-mail about the german on
<godbyk> I'll email him right now.
<ubuntujenkins> cool, I am just looking for stuff I don't know how to do in latex
<ubuntujenkins> how do you change the paper size?
<ubuntujenkins> I will be back in 5 to 10 mins
<godbyk> ubuntujenkins: the paper size gets changed automatically based on the language.
<godbyk> (if it doesn't, then I need to edit the .cls file to set it properly.)
<godbyk> Okay, email sent.
<ubuntujenkins> cool as far as the small caps formating where would that be changed?
<godbyk> Well, it depends.
<godbyk> So with the German translation, for instance, he wanted the running heads to be different.
<godbyk> With other translations, we have to use fonts that don't have small-caps.
<godbyk> So it depends on the situation.
<ubuntujenkins> running heads being ....
<ubuntujenkins> to ask a silly question :)
<godbyk> Running heads are the bits at the top of the page with the page number and the book title and chapter title.
<godbyk> Nope, it's not a silly question at all.  I'm guessing the vast majority of the people in the world have absolutely no idea what a running head is. :)
<ubuntujenkins> ok cool
<ubuntujenkins> whilst i don't forget shrini asked me to ask you about the japanise caracters on the side of evince they should be tamil
<godbyk> Uh...
<godbyk> No clue on that one.
<ubuntujenkins> I had no clue where to look at all
<ubuntujenkins> o we will have to look into it
<godbyk> I'll have to ask him when I see him next.
<godbyk> I'm not sure where Japanese characters would be coming from.
<ubuntujenkins> if you look at it its really obvious that they are not tamil
<godbyk> So previously, I was building 2 PDFs at a time when I built all the translations.
<godbyk> When my new computer I'm doing 8 at a time. It's a lot faster. :)
<ubuntujenkins> eight what are your specs?
<thorwil> way more people have an idea of a running nose than of a running head
<godbyk> Where am I looking for the Japanese characters, ubuntujenkins?
<godbyk> thorwil: I bet!
<godbyk> thorwil: It looks like we may have to whip up a Tamil title page soon.
<ubuntujenkins> godbyk: on the index pain of evince
<godbyk> thorwil: After I find a font that isn't horrible.
<godbyk> (Not many Tamil fonts out there, it seems.)
<godbyk> I just grabbed the Tamil PDF from the builds page.  And the index pane on mine (which shows the chapters, etc.) has Tamil and English text there.
<thorwil> godbyk: oh, Tamil has been very low of my list based on a snapshot of translations status way back
<godbyk> thorwil: I know.  They spiked up this past week.  A lot!
<ubuntujenkins> ok then its an issue with ones built on my computer, the tamil text works but not the index appantly
<godbyk> They're in 7th place right now.
<godbyk> ubuntujenkins: Oh, that could be. I'm not building the index right now.
<ubuntujenkins> godbyk: I need to redo the index rules they work but they way I did it is not 100% the correct way. I need to get my exam on tuesday out the way first
<godbyk> No worries.
<godbyk> We should write up instructions for ourselves on how to do the indexing, too.
<godbyk> We'll also need to take a look at hyphenation patterns.
<ubuntujenkins> they are really easy once you know how. I will do instructions. A lot depends on the language.
<ubuntujenkins> hyphenation patterns in what sense?
<godbyk> If they're not in LaTeX already, I think we can steal them from OpenOffice.org.
<godbyk> Hyphenation patterns tell LaTeX where it's okay to break a word at the end of the line (hyphenate it).
<ubuntujenkins> http://ubuntuone.com/p/6kf/ is tamil built on my computer .
<godbyk> Without being able to hyphenate words, the spacing isn't nearly as good (lines run too long or too short).
<ubuntujenkins> ok that make sense
<godbyk> ubuntujenkins: weird.  yeah, something barfed there. we'll have to look into it.
<ubuntujenkins> once i get the index correct then we know its not that
<godbyk> right
<ubuntujenkins> also there is a two page gap before the index
<godbyk> Yeah, I recall having to fix that manually with the English edition, too.
<godbyk> Let's add that to the checklist.
<thorwil> godbyk: regarding hyphenation, seen http://code.google.com/p/hyphenator/ ?
<godbyk> thorwil: Cool!
<godbyk> I think browsers should have built-in hyphenation (and CSS should support H&J rules)
<thorwil> godbyk: that's what i have been thinking, too. but what can you expect from people who think it's alright to draw underlines right through descenders? ;)
<thorwil> godbyk: seeing how adding lots of &shy; the hard way is not practical at all, this script is the best available solution
<godbyk> I s'pose.  It just seems like they're coming at it from the wrong direction.
<godbyk> Hyphenation shouldn't be some post-hoc decoration, y'know?
<thorwil> no doubt browsers doing it themselves would beat this
<thorwil> but it is a relief to see this in action. text on the web starts to suck less quite a bit :)
<godbyk> Hey, thorwil, you have a nice, large collection of typefaces, right?
<godbyk> Definitely.
<ubuntujenkins> ok thanks godbyk I think i can help translators with most of the list
<thorwil> godbyk: not here on my lucid install
<godbyk> ubuntujenkins: cool.  If there are things you can't help with let me know and I'll try to teach you.
<godbyk> It's always best if multiple people know how something works.
<godbyk> thorwil: Ah, bummer. I wrote a script that scans the fonts on your system and lists all of the fonts that support a particular script.
<godbyk> Was hoping you had a nice Tamil font that I didn't have.
<godbyk> I'm not terribly thrilled with the one we're using right now.
<ubuntujenkins> godbyk:  I would like to learn as well :) . with item 10 where do the translated items go in the .tex file?
<ubuntujenkins> I find tamil looks better if you increase the font size
<godbyk> ubuntujenkins: They go in the um-LANGUAGE.clo file.
<thorwil> godbyk: if the "on your system" can be stretched a bit, i could check the font dir on my other partition
<ubuntujenkins> I have to in gedit when working with it for the index
<godbyk> (I need to update the um-template.clo file to be more comprehensive.)
<ubuntujenkins> thanks godbyk
<godbyk> thorwil: Sure. You just edit the file and change the list of paths it searches.
<godbyk> thorwil: I'll email it to you.
<ubuntujenkins> I ment to send a meeting reminder to the list and sent it to ben!
<godbyk> lol
<godbyk> he probably needs one, too! :)
<c7p> godbyk the list that we are working on is http://pad.ubuntu-uk.org/translationtodo ?
<godbyk> c7p: At the moment.  Your site was down, so we started recreating the list.
<ubuntujenkins> I wondered why the mail wasn't on the list sent it now
<c7p> who is chairing the meeting ?
<ubuntujenkins> ben i guess
<godbyk> If he shows up. :)
<ubuntujenkins> :)
 * ubuntujenkins learns more about three phase generators
<shrini> team: do we have any meeting now?
<ubuntujenkins> in 8 mins shrini
<shrini> ubuntujenkins: thanks
<dutchie> oh no
<dutchie> can we delay it half an hour or so?
<ubuntujenkins> what dutchie ?
<ubuntujenkins> the football is not that important
<dutchie> i can't watch the match and do a meeting at the same time
<dutchie> ubuntujenkins: USA equalised :(
<dutchie> nearly took the lead just then
<ubuntujenkins> put it on head phones I am listening as i have no tv licence
<ubuntujenkins> raido 5 :)
<dutchie> probably better than the ITV coverage
<dutchie> their HD channel went to adverts for the first goal
<ubuntujenkins> what that sucks
<godbyk> Look, you know we're going to win, so you probably don't really want to watch anyway.
<dutchie> you stick to playing sports that nobody else bothers with
<ubuntujenkins> lol
<godbyk> You couldn't handle real football. :)
<dutchie> i have actually played american football
<dutchie> so :P
<ubuntujenkins> yes we could a real footbal os round
<ubuntujenkins> *is
<godbyk> dutchie: Just once, eh?  I rest my case.
<dutchie> godbyk: i have played it many times actually
<dutchie> i am actually not bad
<dutchie> (by the standards of my friends)
<godbyk> I pretty much suck at all sports. So I don't pay any attention to them.
<ubuntujenkins> I have only really palyed rugby which is much better as there is no padding
<dutchie> not a massive fan of playing rugby
<ubuntujenkins> I don't play it much
<dutchie> aren't you obligated to play sport at loughborough anyway? ;)
<ubuntujenkins> no, only if you do a course that is sport
<ubuntujenkins> loughbrough is good at engineering as well
 * dutchie wonders what godbyk's attempt at pronouncing "loughborough" is like
<ubuntujenkins> minutes for people to read whilst we wait https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-manual/Meetings
<ubuntujenkins> I ment agenda
<godbyk> I saw your previous discussions on the 'proper' pronunciation.
<flan> Hi.
<semioticrobotic> greetings
<godbyk> Hey, guys.
 * flan needs to stop getting distracted.
<c7p> hi
<dutchie> godbyk: bet you can't pronounce my city
<ubuntujenkins> hello everyone
<ubuntujenkins> hmm no ben yet
<godbyk> Well, shall we get started or wait for more stragglers?
<flan> I'm gonna start beinging my Eee with me on the train.
<semioticrobotic> godbyk: Are we missing anyone you'r expecting (besides benjamin)?
<thorwil> godbyk: i'm about to disappear, actually
<ubuntujenkins> semioticrobotic: also ilya
<godbyk> I'm not sure if Ilya was planning to be here or not.
<godbyk> We'll get started then.
<semioticrobotic> ubuntujenkins: Ah!  Yes, of course.
<godbyk> I may go through the agenda in a different order in case Ilya or Ben pops in late.
<ubuntujenkins> yea we should get started
<semioticrobotic> good plan
<godbyk> Okay, so first up, let's talk about the Lucid first edition translations.
<ubuntujenkins> don't for get the meeting bot
<godbyk> As you can see from here: https://translations.launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual
<godbyk> a number of translations have been completed.
<godbyk> Many of them are currently in the editing/proofreading phase.
<godbyk> I think the German and Greek translations have progressed just beyond that.
<dutchie> godbyk: not going to do a #startmeeting?
<ubuntujenkins> well done to the translators
<godbyk> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 15:06. The chair is godbyk.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<godbyk> just for dutchie
<dutchie> \o/
<semioticrobotic> agreed.  well done translation teams!
<godbyk> [TOPIC] Lucid first-edition translations
<MootBot> New Topic:  Lucid first-edition translations
<godbyk> So with the help of c7p and ubuntujenkins, we have a rough check-list of items that need to be completed for each translation:  http://pad.ubuntu-uk.org/translationtodo
<godbyk> We will probably continue adding to this as we encounter new issues.
<godbyk> Each translation team has an assigned translation editor: http://wiki.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-manual/TranslationEditors
<godbyk> The translation editor is in charge of communicating with the rest of the Ubuntu Manual team to ensure that each of the steps on that checklist is completed
<thorwil> godbyk: maybe mention the lulu cover, too?
<godbyk> and will have the final say on when we publish that translation.
<godbyk> thorwil: Good idea. Add that in there someplace.
<semioticrobotic> gotcha
<ubuntujenkins> can people add irc nicks in another column to https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-manual/TranslationEditors
<godbyk> ubuntujenkins: sure.
<ChrisWoollard> Hello All, Sorry I am late.
<godbyk> Does anyone have any questions about the general process for releasing the first edition translations?
<godbyk> Hey, ChrisWoollard. No worries. We're just getting started.
<ChrisWoollard> :)
<godbyk> Okay, if there's nothing else to add, we'll move on to the next topic.
<godbyk> [TOPIC] Lucid second edition release schedule
<MootBot> New Topic:  Lucid second edition release schedule
<godbyk> Currently, the release date for the second edition of the Lucid manual is 29 July.
<dutchie> (5 days after my birthday \o/)
<dutchie> aha
<godbyk> We don't have any particular alpha/beta/etc. release dates scheduled, but we can add them in if we feel the need.
<semioticrobotic> ok
<humphreybc-mini> hi
<godbyk> The second edition will contain all the bug fixes and last minute material that we didn't have time to clean up for the first edition.
<godbyk> Hey, humphreybc-mini.
<semioticrobotic> hi humphreybc-mini
<godbyk> I think we've fixed a pretty large number of bugs in the second edition already.
<godbyk> But we should continue doing read-throughs to find more bugs.
<semioticrobotic> It sure seems like it
<godbyk> The second edition will be the manual that hangs around with the LTS release, so it may be used for some years yet.
<ubuntujenkins> humphreybc-mini: has the winner of the competion be told that they won?
<semioticrobotic> good point
<ubuntujenkins> bug comp^
<humphreybc-mini> ubuntujenkins: Well, I have to actually figure out who won
<humphreybc-mini> I've only had one person tell me they have done 10 buigs
<humphreybc-mini> bugs*
<ChrisWoollard> Just out of interest. Are specifica people responsible for checking  different chapters or anything like that
<godbyk> Are they supposed to notify you, or do they expect you to tally up the results?
<ubuntujenkins> I think about 3-4 people at a guess i have not actually looked .
<daker> hi
<humphreybc-mini> godbyk: I didn'
<ubuntujenkins> hey daker
<godbyk> ChrisWoollard: Nope. It's a free-for-all.
<humphreybc-mini> I didnt say, but I expect the latter
<ChrisWoollard> There was one guy that logged a good hundred bugs
<humphreybc-mini> I need to tally em up
<godbyk> Is there an end date to the competition?
<humphreybc-mini> nope
<humphreybc-mini> oh
<humphreybc-mini> well
<humphreybc-mini> 2nd edition release I guess
<godbyk> humphreybc-mini: We should set an end date so we have time to get the contributor names in the second edition of the manual.
<humphreybc-mini> true
<humphreybc-mini> I'll get onto all that at the end of next week
<godbyk> Okay.
<godbyk> Any other questions about the release of the second edition?
<ChrisWoollard> I think this guy logged a lot of bugs
<c7p> what about the bug tracking of the translated edition?
<ChrisWoollard> https://edge.launchpad.net/~marc.stewart
<ubuntujenkins> when is it? or did i miss that?
<semioticrobotic> I have a quick question
<ubuntujenkins> found it 29th july
<godbyk> ubuntujenkins: The second edition will be released 29 July.
<dutchie> (5 days after my birthday \o/)
<ubuntujenkins> semioticrobotic: ask away
<semioticrobotic> Could someone clarify the syntax for linking specific fixed bugs in bzr commit anotations?
<semioticrobotic> I see people have been doing that; it's very cool, and I want to do it
<dutchie> bzr commit --fixes lp:<number>
<semioticrobotic> does that automatically mark the bug as fixed?
<dutchie> don't think so
 * humphreybc-mini confesses that he hasn't looked at the branch in two months
<semioticrobotic> ok
<dutchie> i think it will do if the branch ends up in the main line
<godbyk> semioticrobotic: Running 'bzr help bugs' will show you some examples, too.
<semioticrobotic> so after committing and pushing, manually mark the bug
<semioticrobotic> thanks, godbyk
<godbyk> semioticrobotic: Yeah, that's what I've been doing: fix, push, mark the bug manually.
<ChrisWoollard> I thought the procedure was to mark the bug as fix commited until the release.
<godbyk> ChrisWoollard: It is.
<ChrisWoollard> :)
<semioticrobotic> ... but I didn't know if that had to happen manually
<godbyk> Once the bug has been fixed and commit, mark it as 'Fix Committed'
<semioticrobotic> yes
<semioticrobotic> gotcha
<semioticrobotic> thanks for the clarification
<godbyk> 'Fix released' will be what we set those bugs to after the final PDF and book have been released.
<semioticrobotic> ok
<humphreybc-mini> Which basically means it's in the branch, ready for a release
<godbyk> Right.
<godbyk> Okay, any other questions about the second edition release?
<c7p> question: What about the bug tracking of the translated editions? The http://bugs.ubuntu-manual.org/ isn't working.
<humphreybc-mini> Of course, since this is a book, our releases aren't super defined because we're always releasing things... it's really a rolling release
<godbyk> c7p: You can file them in Launchpad, if you like.
<dutchie> c7p: tell me asap about bugs.u-m.o outages
<dutchie> i'll sort in a moment
<humphreybc-mini> c7p: Yeah, Launchpad is the best until we get the new site design up with new bug form
<godbyk> c7p: Also, you can pester dutchie about the bugs page.
<godbyk> Any other questions?
<humphreybc-mini> are we winning?
<godbyk> Okay, since humphreybc-mini's here, we'll move on to some of his agenda items.
<godbyk> [TOPIC] Ubuntu Manual Project Philosophy
<MootBot> New Topic:  Ubuntu Manual Project Philosophy
<humphreybc-mini> ah
<humphreybc-mini> yes
<humphreybc-mini> I have been working on this
<humphreybc-mini> sort of
<humphreybc-mini> So basically, here's more or less the near final version of this thing
<humphreybc-mini> http://pad.ubuntu-uk.org/axMP6X6TIq
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://pad.ubuntu-uk.org/axMP6X6TIq
<dutchie> how embarrassing
<dutchie> (the football)
<humphreybc-mini> lol
<ChrisWoollard> Why
<dutchie> 1-1 draw
<ChrisWoollard> which game
<dutchie> england v usa
<ubuntujenkins> shocking game
<daker> haha
<ChrisWoollard> Oh dear
<ChrisWoollard> I should know that
<godbyk> dutchie: We'll take that as a win, then.
 * ChrisWoollard pretends he cares
<c7p> haha :P
<humphreybc-mini> That is tragic
<dutchie> godbyk: your lack of understanding of the game is obvious
<humphreybc-mini> Hilarious
<humphreybc-mini> but tragic
<dutchie> straneg
<godbyk> humphreybc-mini: Do we have anything we need to discuss about the mission statement / philosophy, or are we just reading through it?
<dutchie> i don't see NZ at the world cup
<humphreybc-mini> godbyk Just reading through. If you have any suggestions, make some comments on the pad
<godbyk> dutchie: Amusingly, despite our obvious lack of understand, we've managed to keep you at bay.  Oh, superiority!
<godbyk> Okay.
<dutchie> let's get through the meeting, then godbyk can gloat
<humphreybc-mini> yep
<godbyk> Does anyone have any questions, comments, suggestions, criticisms, etc. about the philosophy/mission statement stuff?  (It'll take a bit of time to read through, so you can pester us on the list or in here later if you like.)
<humphreybc-mini> Stephen Fry didn't predict a draw: http://twitter.com/stephenfry/status/15995140379
<godbyk> Okay, moving along then. :)
<godbyk> [TOPIC] Ubuntu Support and Learning Center
<MootBot> New Topic:  Ubuntu Support and Learning Center
<godbyk> humphreybc-mini: Do you want to take this topic, too?
<humphreybc-mini> ah
<humphreybc-mini> well
<humphreybc-mini> this is fairly broad
<godbyk> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-support-and-learning-center
<humphreybc-mini> What should we write it in? Python? Okay, settled.
<semioticrobotic> just finished reading, humphreybc-mini.  it's come a long way!  I like the new mission statement
<godbyk> I'm not sure that humphreybc-mini knows enough Python yet. :-P
<humphreybc-mini> lol
<dutchie> well, if it's an online jobbie, it'll end up being HTML/Javascript...
<humphreybc-mini> I was looking at things like Zope
<flan> Doesn't change the fact that Python's the best language in use today.
 * ubuntujenkins is not sure he knows enough python either
<godbyk> dutchie: Looks like your bug report got filed okay.
<humphreybc-mini> I think the majority of the thing should be python
<dutchie> godbyk: from the bugs page?
<godbyk> dutchie: yeah.
<humphreybc-mini> Launchpad uses python, everyone uses python
<shrini> what to do with python for support center?
<godbyk> humphreybc-mini: I think we need to establish another meeting with the docs team and learning team to get some details out of the way.
<humphreybc-mini> It seems to offer the most flexibility when it comes to doing stuff like this, I was talking to thump er about it a couple of weeks ago
<shrini> I am new to this concept
<humphreybc-mini> godbyk, yeah
<humphreybc-mini> but we need to make some decisions soon
<godbyk> Is everyone here familiar with this Ubuntu Support and Learning Center concept that we've started working on?
<semioticrobotic> humphreybc-mini, could you perhaps summarize the current state of our collaboration wth those teams?
<ChrisWoollard> That would be good
<humphreybc-mini> coz after my exams I'm going to market it like crazy to get some developers... and we need to know who we're trying to entice :)O
<humphreybc-mini> semioticrobotic: Well, the learning team love us, the docs team love us except for Matthew East.
<ubuntujenkins> am i correct in thinking that we have not had the colaberation meeting yet or did i miss it?
<humphreybc-mini> He hates us :)
<ChrisWoollard> why
<flan> And I need to be smacked on weekdays so I'll actually focus on Quickshot so I can hel you get started on USLC.
<daker> hahaa
<shrini> if you need some python code, count me in
<humphreybc-mini> I think it was called off coz no one showed up from their side
<godbyk> So the short version is that we'd like to merge our work with the work of the doc team and learning team so that we're sharing a huge pool of documentation.  Any team can pull docs from the pool and organize them however they'd like.
<semioticrobotic> ubuntujenkins, it was canceled but is being rescheduled
 * flan is strangely unmotivated right now.
<godbyk> So we can pull our docs from the pool to create PDFs and online manuals.
<ubuntujenkins> semioticrobotic: thats what i thought
<godbyk> The learning team can produce handouts, textbooks, lesson plans, etc.
<ubuntujenkins> flan: i am starting on quickshot this tueday after my exam
<dutchie> have we got around to working out how all this will work yet?
<godbyk> We're going to integrate translations and editing via the website.
<shrini> great
<flan> That'll probably help, ubuntujenkins.
<humphreybc-mini> The original plan was to get the infrastructure in place using our content as a proof of concept first
<godbyk> You won't have to use LaTeX directly anymore as we'll have a web-based editor.
<ChrisWoollard> There is also the developer manual. Were we going to have anything to do with that as well?
<semioticrobotic> okay
<semioticrobotic> so I remember humphreybc-mini's clusterfl0ck of a flow chart
<godbyk> ChrisWoollard: We're working with that team a bit, too.
<humphreybc-mini> ChrisWoollard: Sort of. Rick and Didier and a couple of other guys are making that, we're just offering advice and letting them use our channel
<semioticrobotic> how exactly does that translate into concrete work on the ground?  Which groups will be responsible for what kinds of production/action?
<ubuntujenkins> flan: cool, I will need some help with understanding some stuff you wrote
<ChrisWoollard> So, pretty much if they ask for help..... then maybe
<humphreybc-mini> ChrisWoollard: oh no, sure we'll help them
<ChrisWoollard> :)
<humphreybc-mini> Mainly with technical stuff though
<humphreybc-mini> The idea is that they get the projects to write their own code, or grab shit from existing project help
<humphreybc-mini> own code/text
<godbyk> Our next steps are to reschedule the collaboration meeting when folks from the other two teams can attend so we can hash out a few technical details.
<godbyk> Then we'll be busy designing and coding.
<godbyk> But for the Maverick release, along with the usual PDF and printed manuals, we'll have an online version of the manual.
<humphreybc-mini> yarp
<semioticrobotic> ok
<humphreybc-mini> the online version will be our text in USLC as a proof of concept
<godbyk> With the online version of the manual, people can report bugs right from the page as they're reading the manual.
<godbyk> They'll be able to link directly to a paragraph or section of the manual (handy for providing pointers in emails, forums, and IRC channels).
<ubuntujenkins> godbyk: we better get started on the site we need more coders
<godbyk> ubuntujenkins: Agreed.
<humphreybc-mini> But the whole awesome edited backend, paragraph at a time, suggestion based moderated wiki and online editor magical content pool etc might not be in place till next year ;)
<semioticrobotic> and the giant content pool will be ... a repository?  a code branch?
<godbyk> semioticrobotic: A bit of a hybrid.
<humphreybc-mini> semioticrobotic: Not sure
<semioticrobotic> ok
<semioticrobotic> just trying to envision it all :)
<c7p> How will the translation of that online manual stuff be done? Through launchpad ?
<godbyk> semioticrobotic: Right now, we're thinking it'll be stored in a database with regular (nightly? hourly?) exports to a bzr branch.
<semioticrobotic> ok
<godbyk> semioticrobotic: We're pushing off any bzr import stuff until much, much later, though.
<humphreybc-mini> godbyk, ahh, that would work
<semioticrobotic> so contributing won't even require knowledge of bzr, launchpad, or anything like that
<semioticrobotic> ok
<godbyk> c7p: We'll probably have our own translation system if Launchpad's doesn't improve sufficiently.
<humphreybc-mini> semioticrobotic: correct
<humphreybc-mini> it will be awesome
<semioticrobotic> ok
<semioticrobotic> everything's starting to come together for me now
<godbyk> So as you can see, we're fairly ambitious and have a lot of work ahead of us.
<semioticrobotic> yes, I can see that!
<c7p> ok it sound pretty good, I'm looking forward to it
<humphreybc-mini> yar
<dutchie> godbyk: that makes a change
<ChrisWoollard> It will  take a lot of effort
<godbyk> We're going to try to meet with the other teams in the next week or two to work out a few of the underlying technical details and then we'll start designing and coding.
<godbyk> dutchie: What makes a change?
<daker> godbyk, a lot of work :)
<humphreybc-mini> So if we can get some more details hammered out in the next couple of weeks, I'll start working on the specification and marketing for it so we can get some people to help us
<godbyk> You've all probably seen some traffic on the Ubuntu Manual mailing list a few weeks ago about this.  You'll probably see some more traffic soon.
<semioticrobotic> okay, sounds goos
<semioticrobotic> good*
<semioticrobotic> we're going to need lots of help :)
<godbyk> Okay, any other questions, comments, etc. on this topic?
<ChrisWoollard> What lanaguages were we talking about again?
<ChrisWoollard> I missed that bit. I think.
<ChrisWoollard> for the development
<daker> python (django) or PHP
<godbyk> ChrisWoollard: We haven't pinned that down yet.
<dutchie> django \o/
<humphreybc-mini> all of the cool languages
<ChrisWoollard> Shame I don't know Python.
<ChrisWoollard> But i know Perl
<humphreybc-mini> you'd better learn quick :P
<ChrisWoollard> that is cool :P
<flan> I've kinda been sold on Pylons. It didn't take much effort to set up and it seems quite scalable and flexible.
<godbyk> [TOPIC] Research on manual usability
<MootBot> New Topic:  Research on manual usability
<godbyk> https://lists.launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual/msg01941.html
<semioticrobotic> yeah ... when it comes to programming languages, I'm of no help.  But when you're generating content ... well, THAT I can edit
<godbyk> So Ilya's worked up a plan for running some studies on how people use our manual and what problems they encounter.
<humphreybc-mini> he's not here though, bummer
<godbyk> If you have any feedback or questions about his study designs, you can respond to the thread on the mailing list.
<ubuntujenkins> I think it is really good :)
<semioticrobotic> the information will certainly be useful, that's for sure
<godbyk> I agree.
<godbyk> Okay, next up:
<godbyk> [TOPIC] Cleaning up the instructions on the website
<MootBot> New Topic:  Cleaning up the instructions on the website
<c7p> godbyk: I have submitted one but I am still waiting an answer
<semioticrobotic> plus, it'll be cool to say I was involved in something that required a Kickstarter campaign  :)
<godbyk> Some of the instructions on our website are a bit short.
<humphreybc-mini> and others are way too long
<ubuntujenkins> the latex ppa should go on
<godbyk> For example, http://ubuntu-manual.org/getinvolved/editors stops just short of explaining how to edit the .tex files, commit them back, etc.
<ChrisWoollard> i think so
<humphreybc-mini> I was thinking we could fix these up for the site redesign
<ChrisWoollard> the ppa is useful
<godbyk> ubuntujenkins: Absolutely. If the PPA is working, then that will simplify the TeX stuff, I think.
<humphreybc-mini> What do you guys think about having help overlays pop up more often on our site, like on launchpad?
<godbyk> humphreybc-mini: Can you give me an example of where that would be useful?
 * humphreybc-mini thinks
<humphreybc-mini> Well I'm just trying to figure out whether the approach we have now (giving instructions based on roles) is the best
 * godbyk takes that as a 'nope'. 
<godbyk> :)
<ubuntujenkins> godbyk: It works and i can update it now i know how to make the packages my self
<humphreybc-mini> I think it is
<humphreybc-mini> but
<godbyk> ubuntujenkins: awesome.
<humphreybc-mini> still open to other options
<humphreybc-mini> I want to make the instructions as coooooooooooooool as possible
<godbyk> So we need to update the instructions to ensure they're still accurate and reflect our current development efforts (make sure people are using the right branch, etc.).
<humphreybc-mini> (also, helpful)
<semioticrobotic> that cool, huh?
<godbyk> We need to extend the instructions to include how to edit files, provide a link to the style guide, and so forth.
<ChrisWoollard> simplicity
<humphreybc-mini> godbyk, for example, where we tell people to set up an SSH key for Launchpad. We could just have that stuff in an overlay
<godbyk> Would anyone like to volunteer to work on the instructions?
<humphreybc-mini> Well I think I was going to do some
<godbyk> You won't have to do all of them yourself. If you only know the translation side, that's great.  Ditto for authors/editors.
<c7p> godbyk: I think I can help with the instructions
<godbyk> humphreybc-mini: Okay.
<godbyk> c7p: Great!
<godbyk> I'll let c7p and humphreybc-mini work together on the instructions then.
<humphreybc-mini> yarp
<humphreybc-mini> sounds groovy
<godbyk> You guys should be able to cover all the bases there, I think.
<godbyk> Last item on the agenda:
<godbyk> [TOPIC] Goals for Maverick
<MootBot> New Topic:  Goals for Maverick
<godbyk> humphreybc-mini: Do you want to field this topic, too?
<humphreybc-mini> ah
<humphreybc-mini> okay
<humphreybc-mini> well
<humphreybc-mini> Major things are of course, new edition of the manual, quickstart booklet(s), first release of USLC and a new look for the team
<godbyk> Let's take those one at a time, then.
<ChrisWoollard> What did USLC stand for?
<godbyk> [TOPIC] Maverick edition of the manual
<MootBot> New Topic:  Maverick edition of the manual
<godbyk> ChrisWoollard: USLC: Ubuntu Support and Learning Center.
<shrini> is it possible to have different layout?
<godbyk> ChrisWoollard: (the new website we were talking about before)
<shrini> for the book?
<ubuntujenkins> ?mppa > humphreybc-mini
<semioticrobotic> so ... will the Maverick edition be comprised of material from the giant content pool?
<quickshotdevs> ubuntujenkins: Error: "mppa" is not a valid command.
<quickshotdevs> humphreybc-mini, please see my private message
<godbyk> shrini: Possibly. What're you thinking?
<ChrisWoollard> Godbyk: Thanks. I just didn't link it to the learning centre
<shrini> godbyk: the paper a4 is not good for a book to read
<godbyk> shrini: True, but it's good for printing the book yourself.
<shrini> check out other normal books
<shrini> godbyk: you are right
<shrini> :-)
<shrini> ok. agree
<godbyk> So we're kind of compromising a bit there.
<godbyk> Normally the problem with larger format books is that the lines are too long and the book is too heavy.
<shrini> thats fine
<godbyk> In our case, the lines are shorter since we leave plenty of room for sidenotes, and the book isn't too heavy as we're too lazy to write so much material.
<godbyk> (Okay, the real reason is because we're trying to keep it fairly short.)
<shrini> :-)
<humphreybc-mini> so maverick will get a lot of stuff cut out
<godbyk> shrini: But we can look into different paper formats down the road.  Remind me again in a couple months! :)
<semioticrobotic> we're going even shorter?
<humphreybc-mini> and some more stuff added in that's more applicable to our target audience
<ChrisWoollard> Having bucket loads of text doesn't make easy reading
<humphreybc-mini> semioticrobotic: yep
<semioticrobotic> ok
<humphreybc-mini> No terminal stuff in Maverick
<c7p> so the maverick edition's text won't be composed from the start, right?
<shrini> godbyk: sure. will remind you
<humphreybc-mini> It will truly become a "Getting Started" guide, and readers will be directed to USLC for further learning
<godbyk> c7p: We'll be reusing whatever we can from the Lucid editions.
<semioticrobotic> now ... will the giant content pool be generated BEFORE the Maverick release, or after?
<humphreybc-mini> semioticrobotic: after most likely
<semioticrobotic> ok
<ChrisWoollard> When is the Maverick manual planned for release?
<semioticrobotic> so Maverick writing will be our springboard into the pool
<humphreybc-mini> semioticrobotic: ya
<humphreybc-mini> ChrisWoollard: Not sure, it will be a day before Maverick is released. Which will October 9th.
<godbyk> ChrisWoollard: We had a nice release schedule, but then they moved the date on is and we haven't revised our schedule yet.
<ChrisWoollard> Ok. So not much time to write it then
<humphreybc-mini> nope
<semioticrobotic> humphreybc-mini: In that case, the docs team and the manual team will most likely be collaborating during the writing and editing process?
<humphreybc-mini> semioticrobotic: I bloody well hope so :)
<godbyk> Here's what our original release schedule looked like: http://pad.ubuntu-uk.org/MaiZTb4Fjd
 * semioticrobotic laughs
<semioticrobotic> yes, me too
<humphreybc-mini> oh, and the persona
<humphreybc-mini> forgot about that
<semioticrobotic> not doing it?
<humphreybc-mini> hopefully we are
<godbyk> The persona will be kind of a big deal, I think.
<humphreybc-mini> we'll just see
<semioticrobotic> but not the persona touted in the first (and, er, only) episode of Ubuntuesday?
<humphreybc-mini> priorities are something like manual > USLC > quickshot > persona > our website > quickstart booklets
<godbyk> Shall we move on to the booklets real quick?
<humphreybc-mini> semioticrobotic: Ubuntuesday is going to make a stellar return soon
<ChrisWoollard> Whatever the case, I am happy to help write if required.
<godbyk> [TOPIC] Quick-start booklet(s)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Quick-start booklet(s)
<semioticrobotic> humphreybc-mini:  Gotcha.  That's actually a very helpful, seeing a hierarchical list of items
<humphreybc-mini> so we can test the water with one for installation I think
<ubuntujenkins> I think we should also do an about ubuntu one
<humphreybc-mini> ubuntujenkins: ah, that could be good too
<ubuntujenkins> and leave it at two. They are like the first two in a series
<humphreybc-mini> thorwil and I will be working on the design at some point
<ChrisWoollard> Ubuntu One (inc. music store).
<godbyk> The quick-start bookets will be really short guides (how-to's) that focus on just one task, procedure, or small application.
<humphreybc-mini> Then we just need to make it a latex template or something, and shove the text in
<semioticrobotic> I think a Quick Start guide that has Ubuntu equivalents of popular Winows programs (for switchers) would be good
<ubuntujenkins> i think there will be a set eventully
<humphreybc-mini> yeah, think about the size of an Ubuntu CD sleeve, although slightly taller
<ubuntujenkins> what about a three fold leaflet?
<ubuntujenkins> a4
<humphreybc-mini> I was just thinking about that
<semioticrobotic> that'd certainly be nice for LoCos
 * ubuntujenkins thinks great minds think a like :P
<humphreybc-mini> A4 would be good for locos to print off themselves
<humphreybc-mini> ;)
<daker> really i need to go, i'll read the log ASAP
<humphreybc-mini> daker: no worries, chow!
<ubuntujenkins> se ya daker
<godbyk> daker: No problem.  Thanks for coming!
 * semioticrobotic thinks these are all great minds
<daker> thanks
<godbyk> [TOPIC] First release of Ubuntu Support and Learning Center (USLC)
<MootBot> New Topic:  First release of Ubuntu Support and Learning Center (USLC)
<godbyk> I think we've already discussed this item, but if there's anything anyone wants to add...
<humphreybc-mini> pyyyyyyyyyyyython
<godbyk> lol
<godbyk> Okay, then. :)
<humphreybc-mini> Anyway
<shrini> Php ?
<godbyk> And finally:
<godbyk> [TOPIC] New look for the team
<MootBot> New Topic:  New look for the team
<humphreybc-mini> So this new look will be
<ubuntujenkins> o do i get new clothes?
<c7p> haha
<godbyk> Makeovers for everyone!
<shrini> hair style?
<ubuntujenkins> I need some shirts
<semioticrobotic> is this like another reboot of Power Rangers or something?
<humphreybc-mini> new website, new slogan, new philosophy, new marketing materials, new website instructions, new collaboration with other teams
<ChrisWoollard> Do i have to wear a bowtie
<humphreybc-mini> LOL
<shrini> good idea
<semioticrobotic> okay
<humphreybc-mini> My last exam is this friday
<semioticrobotic> that's ... quite a makeover!
<humphreybc-mini> after that I have two weeks holiday where I will be working 9 - 5 on Ubuntu :P
<ubuntujenkins> on the new philosophy/colaberation  it would be nice if we hung out in #ubuntu-doc as well as here
<humphreybc-mini> So I'll get a mega shit tonne of designs and specs out
<humphreybc-mini> ubuntujenkins: Yeah, good point
<daker> humphreybc-mini, i need perfection for the website
 * ubuntujenkins hints everyone to join
<humphreybc-mini> haha
<humphreybc-mini> daker: I know :P
<humphreybc-mini> daker: It's coming along good
<daker> we will see
<humphreybc-mini> daker: http://twitpic.com/1w0ni3
<shrini> good
<daker> http://bobbo.me.uk/index.php/planet-ubuntu/operation-cleansweep-day-four-update
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://bobbo.me.uk/index.php/planet-ubuntu/operation-cleansweep-day-four-update
<daker> GOOD
<humphreybc-mini> nice daker!
<ChrisWoollard> That progress bar is nice
<semioticrobotic> good stuff
<zleap> hi
<godbyk> [TOPIC] Miscellaneous/other business and open questions
<semioticrobotic> operation cleansweep seems like a huge undertaking
<MootBot> New Topic:  Miscellaneous/other business and open questions
<dutchie> hi zleap
<godbyk> Okay, does anyone have any other topics we should discuss?
<godbyk> Any questions?
<daker> good night
<zleap> just downloaded the UK english manual, according to the properties its in US letter
<godbyk> G'night, daker
<zleap> this is properties of the file,  so the properties dialog says US letter
<dutchie> godbyk: this is your area
<godbyk> zleap: It says A4 here.
<humphreybc-mini> hrmmmmm
<semioticrobotic> humphreybc-mini: I'll be moving soon ... a pretty significant relocation so I can start my doctoral studies
<godbyk> zleap: I just downloaded it from http://builds.ubuntu-manual.org/builds/ubuntu-manual-en_GB.pdf
<humphreybc-mini> semioticrobotic: where are you off to?
<semioticrobotic> unfortunately, during that time, I'll be MIA
<godbyk> semioticrobotic: Awesome! What're you studying?
<semioticrobotic> Moving to another state, North Carolina
<shrini> team: alpha version of ubuntu manual is released in the ubuntu release party http://kanchilug.wordpress.com/2010/06/07/ubuntu-10-04-release-party-at-kanchipuram/
 * humphreybc-mini though semioticrobotic lived in Germany
<shrini> http://kanchilug.wordpress.com/2010/06/11/alpha-version-of-ubuntu-manual-in-tamil-released/
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://kanchilug.wordpress.com/2010/06/11/alpha-version-of-ubuntu-manual-in-tamil-released/
<semioticrobotic> ha!
<dutchie> humphreybc-mini: that's thorwil
<shrini> thanks a lot your help
<semioticrobotic> humphreybc-mini: Most people assume this, because of my last name
<shrini> screwed godby and ubuntujenkins a lot
<godbyk> shrini: Congratulations! Awesome job on the translation.
<dutchie> lots of people assume i come from the netherlands, due to my nick
<shrini> thanks godbyk.
 * godbyk doesn't know what people make of him. 
<semioticrobotic> godbyk: I'll be studying in the Department of Communication Studies
<semioticrobotic> working on cultural studies, critical theory, and media studies
<humphreybc-mini> my UK PDf from that link reckons it's A4
<ChrisWoollard> on builds.ubuntu-manual.org. Why are the two English (American) entries?
<zleap> thanks
<zleap> ChrisWoollard, maybe one is print the other is screen
<godbyk> ChrisWoollard: I think I started the script, then stopped it and restarted it (without wiping out the half-written html file).
<ChrisWoollard> Ok. Thanks
<godbyk> ChrisWoollard: Or: Because American English is so incredibly awesome, it's worthy of two entries.
<godbyk> Take your pick. :)
<ChrisWoollard> I am really pleased the UK edition only has 2 warnings/
<ChrisWoollard> godbyk: Whatever.
<humphreybc-mini> shrini: that release party looked awesome
<shrini> humphreybc-mini: :-)
 * humphreybc-mini is tempted to do an OMG! Ubuntu! post on release parties now
<godbyk> ChrisWoollard: I think that those warnings can be ignored, too. I'll look into them.
<shrini> OMG post is a good idea
<godbyk> Okay, does anyone have anything else for the meeting, or shall I release MootBot from his duties?
<humphreybc-mini> hey so godbyk, what's the story on translations?
<humphreybc-mini> When can I announce that we have some more released?
<godbyk> humphreybc-mini: You should've been here about 10 minutes earlier. :)
<ChrisWoollard> I am sure that one was a image. which is fine because the US english cover is good for UK
<godbyk> humphreybc-mini: Short answer: When I tell you. :)
<humphreybc-mini> boo
<godbyk> humphreybc-mini: http://pad.ubuntu-uk.org/translationtodo
<godbyk> ubuntujenkins and c7p and I have been working on a checklist.
<godbyk> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 16:13.
<godbyk> Thanks, MootBot!
<c7p> very informative meeting :D. Godbyk what else remains for the greek edition?
<semioticrobotic> Good ol' MootBot
<semioticrobotic> good meeting everyone
<dutchie> so what am i supposed to do?
<humphreybc-mini> godbyk how awfully complicated
<semioticrobotic> I'm off
<humphreybc-mini> dutchie: start working on USLC :P
<godbyk> humphreybc-mini: tell me about it!
<godbyk> c7p: I'm not sure yet.  Do you have everything on that checklist done already?
<semioticrobotic> bye everyone
<ubuntujenkins> semioticrobotic: bye
<shrini> team: thanks all
<c7p> I think yes, but I'm not 100% sure. Let me check the list
<godbyk> c7p: Okay.
<ubuntujenkins> shrini: we will have to work on the final version of tamil when the translations are finished
<dutchie> humphreybc-mini: I have 5 more exams, and nobody has told me anything about the backend infrastructure :P
<humphreybc-mini> dutchie: When is your last exam?
<shrini> ubuntujenkins: yes. will finish it up as soon as possible
<dutchie> humphreybc-mini: ages
<humphreybc-mini> ....
<ubuntujenkins> shrini: no rush I look forward to seeing it finished
<dutchie> 28th of June
<godbyk> Seems everyone busy with exams these days.
<humphreybc-mini> no worries
<humphreybc-mini> you concentrate on exams
<humphreybc-mini> when you're finished I guarantee you there will be work :)
<dutchie> yay
<shrini> ubuntujenkins: sure.
<shrini> thanks
<shrini> okey friens
<shrini> leaving now
 * ubuntujenkins shouts at gwibber
 * humphreybc-mini is hoping that once USLC work commences, Canonical might hire a dev or two to work on it
<humphreybc-mini> Like they did with Zeitgeist and a few other things
<shrini> catch  you later
<ubuntujenkins> humphreybc-mini: keep dreaming
<ubuntujenkins> see ya shrini
<shrini> bye
<dutchie> maybe they could pay me to work on it
<humphreybc-mini> maybe dutchie
<ChrisWoollard> ubuntujenkins: Did you run through http://pad.ubuntu-uk.org/translationtodo on en_GB?
<ubuntujenkins> ChrisWoollard: no I just checked it for build errors
<ChrisWoollard> Ok. I'll try to do that this week.
<ubuntujenkins> i did about 5 langauges and recorded the common mistakes. I will have a look if i have time after my exams
 * humphreybc-mini has to get out of bed and start studying
<humphreybc-mini> I have two big exams this week so don't expect to see me around till next weekend
<dutchie> humphreybc-mini: have you finally got OOP/Python?
<humphreybc-mini> ya I think so
<c7p> godbyk Is it possible to make a simple program/script checking that everything is fine on the tex file? (e.g Idots ans so on)
<humphreybc-mini> Had an exam on that on friday
<humphreybc-mini> went fairly well
<dutchie> wish i could have an exam on python
<ubuntujenkins> I wish i could have an exam on ubuntu.
<dutchie> actually, most I wish that my eyes/nose would learn how to deal with pollen
<humphreybc-mini> lol
<godbyk> c7p: Well, it's really hard to parse LaTeX code properly, but I would like to have a script that checks a lot of the simple/common errors.
<dutchie> i did put that on my todo list once
<dutchie> it didn't get very far
<godbyk> I could write up a whole list of simple checks to make, if someone wants to take a shot at coding it up.
<dutchie> I think i got as far as "#!/usr/bin/perl; use strict; use warnings;"
<godbyk> I wrote a script before that checked for common English errors.
<godbyk> That needs to be updated/expanded, too.
<godbyk> And Ilya wrote a script that runs spellcheck against the .tex files.
<godbyk> We should probably wrap all those functions into once place.  Maybe with a simple GUI frontend, too.
<ubuntujenkins> don't mention a gui :P
<godbyk> dutchie: Ilya's and my scripts were in Python.
<godbyk> GUI isn't required by any means.
<humphreybc-mini> just glade
<humphreybc-mini> hack it all together :P
<godbyk> But yeah, I think we should have an Ubuntu Manual lint program. :)
<ubuntujenkins> "lint" ?
<godbyk> If anyone gets some free time (or feels like procrastinating) and wants to take it on, give me a holler.
 * ubuntujenkins hides at the mention of glade
<godbyk> ubuntujenkins: yeah. there are lots of *lint programs that check the format of code or other nit-picky details.
<godbyk> ubuntujenkins: see "apt-get search lint" for examples.
<godbyk> (including lots of 'em for python.. like pyflakes.)
<ubuntujenkins> I see
<c7p> many things to be done, we have still long way
<ubuntujenkins> why will facebook not add in gwibber
<godbyk> c7p: For the project in general, or for the Greek translation in particular?
<godbyk> ubuntujenkins: check your username.
<c7p> the project in general :)
<c7p> RTL stands for ?
<godbyk> c7p: definitely true
<ubuntujenkins> godbyk: it authorises it jsut will not do anything after clicking all
<ubuntujenkins> c7p: right to left
<c7p> ubuntujenkins: thank you :)
<ubuntujenkins> *add not all
<ubuntujenkins> c7p: I did not know untill daker told me :)
<ubuntujenkins> yey giwbber works!
<humphreybc-mini> right
<humphreybc-mini> im off
<humphreybc-mini> catchya later
<ubuntujenkins> seya humphreybc-mini
<c7p> godbyk: At http://builds.ubuntu-manual.org/ I see that the greek pdf has 4 warnings, and 2 errors
<c7p> godbyk: the last time I checked it had 4 warnings 0 errors :/
<godbyk> c7p: Yeah, the errors are my bad.
<godbyk> c7p: I rewrote the code for the revision info translation stuff and screwed up the Greek version.
<godbyk> c7p: I just committed a fix.
<c7p> godbyk: ok, no worries :)
<c7p> godbyk: I there any way I can find and "fix" those 4 warnings
<godbyk> I'm going to update all of the builds again soon.
<godbyk> c7p: Hm.. let me see what they are.
<godbyk> c7p: It looks like they're fontspec warnings. It's complaining that there's no Greek language for the Greek script.
<godbyk> I'm not quite sure what it's on about there. I'll have to look into it.
<godbyk> c7p: Can you check the page number references in the glossary and see if they're correct?
<godbyk> The English ones weren't.
<godbyk> If I continue to have problems with them, I will just disable them.
<godbyk> I'll be back in just a bit.
<ubuntujenkins> night all
<dutchie> night
<c7p> godbyk: sure
<c7p> night ubuntujenkins
<c7p> godbyk: hm, by "page number references: you mean the (translated) word(s) that it should have?
<godbyk> c7p: At the end of each glossary entry, there are page numbers that link to the page(s) that the word appears on.
<godbyk> In the English version, the page numbers were off by one, sometimes.
<godbyk> For example, it may say the word appeared on page 47 when it was actually on page 48.
<c7p> godbyk: ok I'll check the number references
<c7p> godbyk: On ISP entry the page 168 isn't correct, I've also other bugs should I mail them to you or report them one by one on channel ?
<godbyk> Probably best to email them to me.
<godbyk> That way if I don't get them fixed immediately, they can stay in my inbox and visually harass me until I do fix them. :)
<c7p> godbyk: lol :p ok
<c7p> godbyk: message send, 7 bugged glossary entries tracked
#ubuntu-manual 2010-06-13
<c7p> night all
<arulalan> no
<arulalan> sorry folks. wrongly sent
<godbyk> Fresh builds are up at http://builds.ubuntu-manual.org/.
<godbyk> Though it appears I've broken them.
<godbyk> Oops.
<godbyk> Guess I'll rebuild 'em real quick.
<godbyk> There, that's better.  Builds are up again.
<Zeike> hi all
<Zeike> after skimming the script of the meeting earlier
<Zeike> I'm extremely interested by the quickstart booklets
<humphreybc> http://twitpic.com/1wdsgq/full
<Zeike> that looks quite good
<humphreybc> thanks :)
<ubuntujenkins> morning all
<humphreybc> hey Luke
<humphreybc> I have made significant progress on the new site design
<humphreybc> have all the pages done except three :P
<humphreybc> It looks... beautiful if I don't say so myself
<ubuntujenkins> nice what about qucikshot?
<humphreybc> Yeah, that's coming next
<humphreybc> it's getting a brand new design
<ubuntujenkins> yey \0/
<ubuntujenkins> yea I ahev donw 50% of the gui we need a logo and a website
<ubuntujenkins> *have done
 * nisshh is hacking on the quickly tutorial code
<humphreybc> anyway
<humphreybc> watching a movie, gotta go!
<ubuntujenkins> see ya
 * thorwil just went through the meeting log
<ubuntujenkins> a lot of banter and gneral chat in it :)
<thorwil> signal to noise ratio ain't bad, actually
<nisshh> no kidding
<ubuntujenkins> there was a bit of football discussion
<nisshh> hehe
<thorwil> humphreybc: i think zope and django both appear to be rather grown and wsgi is an afterthought. the best-of-bread and wsgi right from start of pylons and turbogears (turbogears adds to plyons) seems way more appealing
<nisshh> humphreybc: i have something to show you!
<nisshh> do you have a minute?
<ubuntujenkins> channel challenge: We hope to get a program in the ubuntu repos for people to download the manual in there language. Any suggestions on what we should call it?
<thorwil> manubabel. getting-fish
<thorwil> prometheus
<nisshh> ubuntujenkins: manual-get?
<ubuntujenkins> thorwil: prometheus is in greek mythology aparently
<ubuntujenkins> are there any other words for get but in a different langauge?
 * nisshh only knows english
<nisshh> ubuntujenkins: manual-downloader
<ubuntujenkins> I perefer downloader over get or fetcher
<nisshh> so do i
<nisshh> i think the full name should be Ubuntu Manual Downloader, and the package name should be um-downloader
<ubuntujenkins> Thats my favorate at the moment I will probably do a vote in a meeting once the program is donw
<ubuntujenkins> *done
<ubuntujenkins> become a fan of quickshot http://www.facebook.com/pages/Quickshot/101156256602775?ref=search
<shrini> sudo apt-get install ubuntu-manual
<shrini> is it possible?
<ubuntujenkins> hmm what twitter name should i use quickshot is taken and quickshotproject is to long
<ubuntujenkins> shrini: figures crossed it may be in maverick
<shrini> :-)
<humphreybc> nisshh: sure now I do
<ubuntujenkins> quickshotteam ok for twitter?
 * ubuntujenkins goes for quickshotteam for twitter
<ubuntujenkins> what! : Twitter is over capacity.
<ubuntujenkins> Too many tweets! Please wait a moment and try again.
<humphreybc> yeah
<humphreybc> Fail whale strikes again
<ubuntujenkins> lol fail whale
<ubuntujenkins> does anyone know if fedora has a launchpad ppa equivalent ?
<nisshh> humphreybc: anyway, getting back to what i was going to show you
<nisshh> humphreybc: i have a link here somewhere
<nisshh> humphreybc: http://blog.didrocks.fr/index.php/post/Simple-Comme-Ubuntu,-my-CC:BY-SA-book-has-now-4-years!
<nisshh> i told didrocks the other day i would show you this, it is the book he maintains thats in the repos
<nisshh> i think we could take a thing or two from it, but its in french
<nisshh> brb
<ubuntujenkins> nisshh: what is it in the repos?
<ubuntujenkins> ?ppa
<quickshotdevs> ubuntujenkins: Error: "ppa" is not a valid command.
<quickshotdevs> Already using Ubuntu 10.04? Add our PPA by running these commands in a terminal(Applications â Accessories â Terminal):  $ sudo add-apt-repository ppa:quickshotdevs/quickshot-release   $ sudo apt-get update   $ sudo apt-get install quickshot'
<ubuntujenkins> ?ppa
<quickshotdevs> ubuntujenkins: Error: "ppa" is not a valid command.
<quickshotdevs> Already using Ubuntu 10.04? Add our PPA by running these commands in a terminal(Applications â Accessories â Terminal):  $ sudo add-apt-repository ppa:quickshotdevs/quickshot-release   $ sudo apt-get update   $ sudo apt-get install quickshot'
<nisshh> ubuntujenkins: its a package in the repos called, simplecommeubuntu and once installed there is a pdf in /usr/share/doc/simplecommeubuntu/
<ubuntujenkins> cheers nisshh
<nisshh> no prob
<nisshh> its in french though and its installed by default on the french livecd
<ubuntujenkins> nice
<ubuntujenkins> ?ppa
<quickshotdevs> Already using Ubuntu 10.04? Add our PPA by running these commands in a terminal(Applications â Accessories â Terminal):  $ sudo add-apt-repository ppa:quickshotdevs/quickshot-release   $ sudo apt-get update   $ sudo apt-get install quickshot'
<ubuntujenkins> bot fixed
 * ubuntujenkins quickshot has two twitter followers
 * ubuntujenkins quickshot has six facebook followers
<nisshh> cool
<humphreybc> you guys wanna see something cool?
<humphreybc> http://humphreybc.homeip.net/files/ump-web.zip
<ubuntujenkins> when do we not?
<ubuntujenkins> http://twitter.com/QuickshotTeam and http://www.facebook.com/home.php?#!/pages/Quickshot/101156256602775?ref=ts is also cool
<ubuntujenkins> humphreybc: I like them, they look really good
<ubuntujenkins> we need 25 people on facebook to get a facebook username for the quickshot page become a fan please ^
<humphreybc> I joined :)
<nisshh> ubuntujenkins: i would if i bothered with facebook at all, i dont even use it
 * nisshh uses identi.ca!
<ubuntujenkins> I have only just started using twitter i should also use identica
<humphreybc> help me! http://twitter.com/humphreybc/status/16066717270
<nisshh> humphreybc: so you want help designing the getinvolved page?
<humphreybc> nisshh: just for ideas
<humphreybc> I have a few I'm going to try
<nisshh> ok
<humphreybc> just have a think what would be cool
<nisshh> what are your ideas?
<nisshh> so i dont repeat yours
<humphreybc> It's hard to describe using words :P
<nisshh> brb
<humphreybc> I would like to get some animation in there
<nisshh> ok, hang on my freaking mum wants me to reboot, ill brb
<humphreybc> ubuntujenkins: I'm going to take some artistic licence with the QS website :P
<humphreybc> thorwil: When you've got a minute, have a look at these: http://humphreybc.homeip.net/files/ump-web.zip
<nisshh> right im back humphreybc
<nisshh> stupid non-tech mum
<nisshh> doesnt know anything
<humphreybc> lol
<nisshh> humphreybc: anyway, you want an idea with some animation right?
<humphreybc> Yeah
<nisshh> humphreybc: you have every right to laugh i have to log her into her own gmail every morning
<humphreybc> Something that's very visual, where they can hover or click on the roles and something pops up/slides out to explain some more
<humphreybc> I feel the page is a bit too long
<humphreybc> and the poor designer role is all the way at the bottom
<nisshh> meh
<nisshh> yea its a bit long to be useful
<nisshh> the site just uses html + javascript right now yea?
<humphreybc> ya
<humphreybc> and CSS, obviously
<nisshh> oh yea
<humphreybc> Anyway, implementation is for daker to worry about
<nisshh> silly me
<humphreybc> I just design shit and send him the PSD :P
<nisshh> hehe
<nisshh> i like the philosphy page thats a nice touch
<nisshh> well, it would look a bit gay just having the colored buttons in a list
<humphreybc> I'd probably lose some of the colour
<humphreybc> I kinda want to make it more of a tour...
<ubuntujenkins> what about the current buttons in a circle and then when you clicked on them the page changed to that button and the info about it?
<humphreybc> hm
<humphreybc> ubuntujenkins: yeah, a circle could work. Having the roles closer together is good.
<humphreybc> I also want to get some of those cheesy recommendation lines from "current employees"
<nisshh> ubuntujenkins: yea thats pretty good
<humphreybc> you know, like "I'm an author and I love it. The team is so fantastic and it's awesome and shit. - John Doe, author"
<nisshh> humphreybc: what do you mean?
<nisshh> ah i get it
<humphreybc> and then a real cheesy photo of them
<humphreybc> ..maybe
<nisshh> yea, but we arent actually selling anything
<humphreybc> I think we can do something much cooler with the get involved page though
<humphreybc> nisshh: ah, that's where you're wrong!
<nisshh> so it would be kind of strange
<nisshh> hmm?
<humphreybc> we're not selling things *for money* but we're selling our manual, and selling the concept of our team to future contributors who are looking for a project to join.
<humphreybc> and, for USLC, we're selling the idea to potential backers and other contributors and teams
<nisshh> true
<humphreybc> we're also trying to recruit people
<humphreybc> I approach our team as a business :)
<humphreybc> anyway, I need to hit the sack!
<nisshh> yea, i was thinking "product" sorry, wrong on my part there
<nisshh> gnight, humphreybc
<humphreybc> night!
<humphreybc> have fun in aussie where it's WARM
<nisshh> hehe
<nisshh> is that jelousy i hear?
<dutchie> godbyk: ping re personal latex project
<quickshotdevs> New news from manualplanet: Per Erik GlÃ¦rum GrÃ¸nvik: Another review of Ubuntu
<thorwil> hrmpf, bad timing
<nisshh> thorwil: meh, whys that?
<thorwil> nisshh: missed humphreybc. though, i have to say a bicycle tour with my brother beats irc :)
<nisshh> thorwil: hehe, yea, he went to sleep ages ago
<thorwil> nisshh: short log since then mislead me a bit
<nisshh> ah
<ubuntujenkins> how are we all doing?
<ubuntujenkins> godbyk: godbyk-sagan ping
<thorwil> anyone here got the lightwindow code from stickmanlabs at hand? damn site is down
<c7p> hey godbyk
<c7p> tora esu milas?
<c7p> oops wrong window :/
<c7p> night all
<godbyk> Has everyone who wanted to talked to me left now? Is it safe to come out? :)
<ubuntujenkins> godbyk: I want to go first please :)
<godbyk> ubuntujenkins: Fire away!
<ubuntujenkins> can we skype?
<godbyk> Sure.  You'll have to give me a few minutes to install it, though.
<godbyk> (New PC.)
<ubuntujenkins> cool
<godbyk> It's so insanely fast compared to my previous PC.
<ubuntujenkins> cool just scanning something
<ubuntujenkins> when ever you are ready
<godbyk> I don't know if all the audio stuff is set up correctly, but we'll give it a shot.
<ubuntujenkins> cool
<flan> How many people here actually click 'logout' when done with stuff?
#ubuntu-manual 2011-06-07
<davo> having trouble running make on the ubuntu natty manual. Can anyone help if I paste the error message please?
<c7p> i'll try
<davo> great thanks. one moment.  I have successfully made the manual for version 10, but natty gives this error....
<c7p> ok
<davo> it seems to be working now! how annoying and embarrassing is that!
<c7p> it's ok :)
<c7p> no problem :P
<davo> well you sure did help! thanks c7p :)
<c7p> lol
<godbyk> Awesome job, c7p! :)
<godbyk> davo: Occasionally, running 'make clean' and then 'make' again will help clear things up.
<davo> godbyk thanks. its been years since I did anything with make and makefiles. Memory is rusty. :)
<godbyk> davo: I think our makefile is a bit wonky at the moment, anyway.  I'm tempted to replace it with a python script or something but haven't had the time yet.
<davo> well it seems to have worked fine this time. I think it was me that was wonky in all fairness to your makefile!
<davo> will read through it tomorrow.  Is there a need for any chapter editors at the moment?
<c7p> i don't know, maybe you could send a mail to Rick or wait until next meeting (this weekend)
<davo> will do. Have added my name to the doodle meeting time thingy.   Cheers guys. chat to you at the meeting :)
<c7p> cu :)
<godbyk> c7p: You might let Rick know you've set up a new Doodle poll (and make sure the people that have already used his are aware of the new one).
<c7p> godbyk: actually Rick's poll has a vote only from him, so i closed that poll giving the link of the new one in the description. It's a good idea though to inform him about this through mail :), thx
#ubuntu-manual 2011-06-11
<Captainkrtek> meeting today?
<rickfosb> My calendar shows in one hour; but I may be time zone dysfunctional
<godbyk> Yep, meeting should start in about an hour.
<ChrisWoollard> Hey GodbyK
<ChrisWoollard> Have you got yor printed manual yet?
<godbyk> ChrisWoollard: I haven't ordered one yet.
<godbyk> ChrisWoollard: did lulu respond to your email about the messed up printing?
<ChrisWoollard> Nope, not yet
<c7p> hello all
<rickfosb> Hi c7p
<godbyk> hey, c7p.
<ChrisWoollard> Hello c7p
<sayantan13> hello
<sayantan13> all
<jmolinaso> hi
<sayantan13> am i late for the meeting
<sayantan13> ?
<jmolinaso> nop, not even starte
<jmolinaso> d
<ChrisWoollard> nope
<sayantan13> lol
<sayantan13> cool
<issyl0> Hi all.
<ChrisWoollard> Hi
<CrustyBarnacle_> Howdy all.
<c7p> hello
<vk_ind> hello all
<jmolinaso> hi
<hannie> Hello everybody
<sayantan13> hi
<jmolinaso> hi hannie
<godbyk> I have a random question that someone here may know the answer to: I'd like to get a list of installed fonts that contain a particular Unicode character. Does anyone know if there's a script or program that'll do this for me?
<ChrisWoollard> I have never looked for that, so i don't know
<godbyk> No worries.  I'll continue Googling. :)
<godbyk> Is everyone here or do we need to wait for anyone else?
<hannie> I don't see my "buddies" bryan and Mez
<rickfosb> godbyk: looks about right
<Teotw> godbyk: maybe this will help? http://stackoverflow.com/questions/5604855/how-to-determine-which-fonts-contain-a-specific-character
<godbyk> Teotw: Thanks!  That looks like what I want to do. I wonder if that C# code will run under Linux. I'll take a look at it later.
<godbyk> Well, shall we start the meeting then?
<CrustyBarnacle_> :-D
<hannie> yes
<c7p> i guess we are ready to start
<semioticrobotic> hi everyone!  sorry i'm late
<hannie> semioticrobotic, welcome
<godbyk> semioticrobotic: You're just in time.
<godbyk> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 15:07. The chair is godbyk.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<godbyk> Welcome, everyone.  Thanks for coming.
<godbyk> [TOPIC] Attendance
<MootBot> New Topic:  Attendance
<ChrisWoollard> o/
<godbyk> Could everyone here just say a quick 'hello' for our roll call, please?
<rickfosb> hello
<CrustyBarnacle_> Howdy
<Teotw> hello!
<hannie> ready
<c7p> hello, agenda http://pad.ubuntu-uk.org/UMP-June-Meeting1
<vk_ind> Hello!!
<jmolinaso> hoi
<sayantan13> hello
<semioticrobotic> hello there!
<godbyk> Excellent.  Thanks!
<godbyk> (Makes it easier when compiling the minutes.)
<godbyk> [TOPIC] Getting Started with Ubuntu 10.10 released
<MootBot> New Topic:  Getting Started with Ubuntu 10.10 released
<godbyk> Just a couple quick notes about the maverick manual.
<godbyk> First off, we released it last week.
<godbyk> So congratulations to everyone and thanks for all your help with that.
<semioticrobotic> Good stuff
<sayantan13> yeah congrats to all!! :)
<godbyk> The initial PDF I had uploaded to lulu.com used PNGs for the screenshots.
<godbyk> Those PNGs had an alpha channel for transparency.
<godbyk> Apparently the lulu printers choke on transparency.
 * semioticrobotic groans
<vk_ind> booo
<semioticrobotic> well, crap
<c7p> good job
<godbyk> So I just opened the screenshots in Gimp, flattened them, and resaved them.
<godbyk> I then regenerated the PDF and it seems to work okay now.
<semioticrobotic> oh!  great!
<vk_ind> cool
<godbyk> So just a heads-up. In the future, we need to remove the alpha channel from the screenshot PNGs.
 * JasonO Hello everyone, sorry I'm late.
<godbyk> I have no idea why this didn't affect the previous editions.
<godbyk> That's all I had to talk about with the maverick manual.
<godbyk> And now for what everyone's here for:
<godbyk> [TOPIC] Status updates for the natty manual
<MootBot> New Topic:  Status updates for the natty manual
<godbyk> I created a new natty bzr repository.
<godbyk> You're welcome to start modifying the code there.
<godbyk> I renamed some of the directories to reflect the actual chapter titles.
<godbyk> I also moved a few things around.
<godbyk> The preface is now in the frontmatter/ directory.
<hannie> I noticed :)
<godbyk> And the credits are in the backmatter/ directory.
<godbyk> hannie: Sorry about that. :)
<semioticrobotic> Think hannie learned that the hard way!
<godbyk> I think that's all I moved, but you can check the bzr logs for details.
<godbyk> Now I'll turn it over to rickfosb.  Rick?
<rickfosb> THanks, and great job on getting that out.             I've spoken with most of the editors within the past couple of weeks and at present believe that we have a minimal team in place.  However, we could always use author support.  So if you are so inclined, let me know.
<rickfosb> Out next due date coming up in a week is to have identified the changes we are going to make.  Some of the editors have discovered that their sections are in fairly good shape.  Some of the others, desktop, etc., will need a lot of re write.
<rickfosb> I know we got a little hung up on the last of the screen shots,
<rickfosb> but believe the delay is not all that bad.
<c7p> nice
<rickfosb> So, if we agree, our next mile stone is
<semioticrobotic> Screen shots will be a bigger issue in 11.04, obviously, because Ubuntu's visual appearance has changed so much
<rickfosb> June 28 :M1 -- lock down what needs to change (1 week) June 28
<hannie> rickfosb, are we not supposed to make changes in the spreadsheet on natty status?
<rickfosb> I would prefer that we keep them there.  so Yes, feel free to update status in the spreadsheet.
<hannie> I'm not allowed to make changes
<rickfosb> If you get a road block ... give me a shout out
<rickfosb> I thought that was open... I'll fix it
<rickfosb> sorry
<hannie> ok, thanks
<semioticrobotic> could we have the link, once more, in the meeting minutes?
<semioticrobotic> (when it's updated, of course)
<ChrisWoollard> What are the dates for all milestones?
<rickfosb> standby, and I'll pull them down
<rickfosb> M1 -- lock down what needs to change (1 week)
<rickfosb> M2 -- all sections are in, at least with stub content (week 5)
<semioticrobotic> ChrisWoollard: There's an ical link that should import them all into your calendar software of choice
<rickfosb> M3 -- copywriting down (week 10)
<rickfosb> M4 -- content freeze (copyediting / screenshots done) (week 13)
<rickfosb> M5 -- release (final bug testing done) (week 15)
<rickfosb> And the dates are posted in the spreadsheet as well
<rickfosb> (M! is June 28 and do your count from there) :)
<c7p> check https://lists.launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual/msg02602.html
<rickfosb> Thanks, c7p:
<ChrisWoollard> thanks
<c7p> i think we are one week behind the schedule due to maverick delayed release, but i'm not sure
<rickfosb> Last issue for me:  I will continue to reach out to the editors in a group or individual as necessary.  And please dont hesitate to ask for help.
<rickfosb> gobyk:  back to ;you??
<ChrisWoollard> I am just updating the launchpad milesstones with those dates
<vk_ind> ** applause **
<rickfosb> :))
<godbyk> [TOPIC] Any other business.
<MootBot> New Topic:  Any other business.
<godbyk> Okay. Anything else anyone would like to bring up?
<c7p> yes
<godbyk> Go ahead, c7p.
<rickfosb> OK to purchase 10.10 yet?
<hannie> I have just given a push command. Not sure if it was ok
<ChrisWoollard> yes
<godbyk> rickfosb: It should be.  Chris tested it for us.
<ChrisWoollard> i have a copy in front of me :)
<c7p> i think we should be more careful on the screenshots on this release
<c7p> i don't know if quickshot is under development to cope with natty issues, and new enviroment
<godbyk> c7p: Yes.  We'll need to work with Quickshot to ensure that the QS project file has the updated list of required screenshots.
<godbyk> I'm not sure if it is either.
<godbyk> I'm guessing we'll find out, though. ;-)
<c7p> :)
<vk_ind> haha
<c7p> cool
<vk_ind> in any case, there is always GIMP :)
<CrustyBarnacle_> and Shutter :-)
<c7p> yes, if quickshot isn't updated for natty, maybe we could take some of the screenshots manually
<jmolinaso> may I ask
<c7p> go forth
<jmolinaso> what's the difference between quickshoot and the regular screenshot
<godbyk> :q
<godbyk> D'oh! wrong window.
<godbyk> jmolinaso: Quickshot is a program that makes taking screenshots very convenient and easy for us.
<c7p> jmolinaso: quickshot is a program that we are using for the translated editions
<vk_ind> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-manual/quickshot
<godbyk> It ensures that the screenshots are consistent across multiple languages.
<jmolinaso> I know for what is being used, I wonder what's the technical differents
<jmolinaso> differences
<Teotw> can i just ask, why is the quickshot username not something like "user" or "ubuntu"? I mean, a name like quickshot might make readers ponder what it actually is. I may just be wrong, though.
<godbyk> jmolinaso: There aren't any differences in the actual screenshots that are taken.  The resulting screenshots are just PNG files.
<godbyk> Teotw: The username can be specified in our project's configuration file, so we can change it.
<jmolinaso> ok, thanks that's what I wanted to know
<jmolinaso> godbyk, thanks
<godbyk> jmolinaso: No problem.
<Teotw> godbyk: Aah thanks. Just wondering
<godbyk> Are there any other questions or issues?
<rickfosb> none here.
<semioticrobotic> I'm good.
<hannie> rickfosb, on the spreadsheet: tab Prolouge = Prologue
<jmolinaso> well my question is answered, I was going to ask if the regular screenshots were also useful
<CrustyBarnacle_> Troubleshooting chapter... status... ownership?
<rickfosb> I'll get it...  thanks
<rickfosb> done
<hannie> I see, thanks
<hannie> rickfosb, but I still cannot write in the spreadsheet
<rickfosb> try it now
<hannie> minute
<hannie> nope
<rickfosb> hmm.  I've pretty much opened it up.. try exit and come back in..
<hannie> I have just sent a request
<Teotw> rick: i now cant access the spreadsheet at all
<rickfosb> hannie: https://spreadsheets.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AtkeORuPIMxsdGtWRXlvdHB4bktTNkF5LTNwWU5KQnc&hl=en_US&authkey=CNDambUJ
<rickfosb> the old link was probably read only
<vk_ind> how about sending it again to all?
<hannie> I am going to check
<vk_ind> or should we just copy paste now?
<hannie> Yes! I can edit it now. Thank you
<rickfosb> The sheet is open to any who have the link.  I'll keep a spare copy just in case
<godbyk> Thanks, Rick.
<godbyk> Any other questions or issues?
<CrustyBarnacle_> Troubleshooting Editor?
<vk_ind> a long pause, means no?
<hannie> Yes, I have a question
<hannie> I just tried the push command, but it failed
<hannie> Am I not allowed to change the name of a .tes file?
<hannie> * .tex
<rickfosb> Trouble shooting editor:Kartik Sulakhe
<godbyk> hannie: You should be able to rename a .tex file, yes.
<jmolinaso> hannie, can be there's no rights for you to write yet
<semioticrobotic> godbyk: But won't that create problems when merging with the main branch?
<jmolinaso> on the bazaar
<ChrisWoollard> to rename a file you should do bzr mv oldname newname
<godbyk> semioticrobotic: Most people operate directly on the main branch.
<semioticrobotic> godbyk: Hm.  Maybe I asked the wrong question.  If hannie re-names a local .tex file, and then pushes that file to the branch, won't it create errors?
<rickfosb> godbyk:  going to have to run...
<godbyk> rickfosb: Okay.  I think we're basically done with the meeting.
<hannie> I did this: bzr push lp:~userid/ubuntu-manual/natty
<rickfosb> Thanks all:
<godbyk> I'll end the meeting and we can continue discussing this stuff.
<semioticrobotic> ok
<godbyk> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 15:44.
<hannie> bye rickfosb
<jmolinaso> thanks
<godbyk> There. Now I don't have to worry about leaving MootBot hanging. :)
<sayantan13> cheers!
<semioticrobotic> :)
<godbyk> semioticrobotic: If you rename the file using 'bzr mv' then bzr will be aware of the change.
<semioticrobotic> Ah. Okay.
<semioticrobotic> Well, hannie, there you have it.
<semioticrobotic> But you shouldn't have to rename any files, I don't think.
<CrustyBarnacle_> Testing pull/merge/push .... :-( "ERROR: Branches have no common ancestor, and no merge base revision was specified."
<semioticrobotic> Just edit learning-more.txt by adding the revision we've made, and push it.
<hannie> semioticrobotic, I like to add a date so I can see it is the latest review
<semioticrobotic> Launchpad will take care of that
<semioticrobotic> It will mark your revisions with a date
<semioticrobotic> and it will highlight changes and timestamp them
<hannie> ok, I will use the original name
<godbyk> CrustyBarnacle_: Did you pull down the natty branch?
<godbyk> (The natty branch isn't linked to the maverick branch.)
<CrustyBarnacle_> I thought so....
<godbyk> CrustyBarnacle_: You can also run 'bzr info' to see if everything there looks okay.
<godbyk> The first time you run 'bzr push', you have to provide the location to push it to.
<godbyk> That is, bzr push lp:ubuntu-manual/natty
<godbyk> (I think. It's been a while.)
<hannie> is it sufficient to say /ubuntu-manual/natty?
<hannie> Like so:
<hannie>  bzr push lp:~userid/ubuntu-manual/natty
<hannie> And I suppose you have to be in /home/Projects/natty when giving the command
<ChrisWoollard> if you have the natty branch then bzr push lp:ubuntu-manual
<CrustyBarnacle_> hannie: yes
<semioticrobotic> Yes.  You will need to "push" from the directory in which the project files re located, if I rememeber correctly
<godbyk> hannie: I'd use lp:ubuntu-manual/natty to upload the changes to the main natty branch.
<hannie> godbyk, ok, I think I did it right
<hannie> thank you all for your help
<godbyk> hannie: Sure.  Let me know if you hit any snags.
<hannie> See you all next time
<godbyk> See you later, hannie.
<CrustyBarnacle_> godbyk: Working now, Thanks!
<godbyk> CrustyBarnacle_: Good to hear!
<c7p> godbyk: I want to ask you something regarding the website. The pages on the branch are .inc.html , although the pages that i have written are in html format. Could you give me your light on what's going on here ?
<godbyk> The .inc.html files are probably php+html files that get included (hence the .inc bit) from another php script.
<godbyk> So there's a top-level php script that puts in the common header and footer stuff.
<godbyk> Then the contents of the particular page are included from a different file.
<c7p> godbyk: oh, so in what format and where should i push the main content of the page ?
<godbyk> c7p: Good question.
<godbyk> The stuff that's in the bzr repository is actually a little out of date.
<godbyk> I've been making modifications on the server directly and haven't committed them all to the repository.
<godbyk> Also, it depends on whether you're modifying the current site or the newer test site.
<c7p> ok so for now could you update the site with the new pages, that would help more existing and upcoming authors and translation editors ?
<c7p> when the test site will replace the existing i guess i should learn how to do this
<godbyk> c7p: sure.
<godbyk> c7p: I don't know when the test site will replace the existing site.
<godbyk> We need to take a look at the test site and see what needs to be updated and changed.
<semioticrobotic> Thanks for a good meeting, everyone.  I'm off now.
<godbyk> Once those changes have been made, we can switch over to it.
<c7p> semioticrobotic: bye :)
<godbyk> semioticrobotic: Okay. Thanks for coming!
<semioticrobotic> o/
<c7p> godbyk: thx for the info
<c7p> do you have my pages or should i send them to you ?
<godbyk> c7p: Probably easiest if you send them to me again.
<c7p> godbyk: sure, no big deal
<godbyk> thanks.
<tszar> hi all. Did I miss the whole meeting?
<CrustyBarnacle_> tszar: http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2011/06/11/%23ubuntu-manual.txt
<tszar> thanks :)
<CrustyBarnacle_> tszar: Meeting Minutes - http://pad.ubuntu-uk.org/UMP-June-Meeting1
#ubuntu-manual 2012-06-07
<thorwil> godbyk: hi! why do we have titlepage_a4_en, -en_US, letter_en again?
<thorwil> godbyk: i just pushed: removed old PDFs, new titlepage-en and -en-US, also copied to template_a4 and _letter
<thorwil> godbyk: i guess we should forget about generate-title-pages, as we do not have that many translations in practice
<thorwil> godbyk: the halftitle files need an update/cleanup. is halftitle.svg used as template?
<thorwil> if the 2 .sh files are left non-functional, they should go
#ubuntu-manual 2012-06-08
<godbyk> Morning, thorwil.
<hannie> vibhav, are you here?
#ubuntu-manual 2012-06-09
<thorwil> godbyk: i initially though of generating half-title SVGs via regex. but as PDFs are the actual goal, i will check now if inkscape on the cli can do that
<godbyk> inkscape can convert from svg to pdf on the command-line.
<godbyk> thorwil: inkscape --export-text-to-path --export-pdf=output.pdf input.svg
<thorwil> yes, and it has an only-this-layer flag, which i only used for PNG export, s far
<godbyk> ooh, nice. I didn't know about that flag.
<thorwil> yesterday, i had to learn that regex matching on a multi-line pattern sucks, be it sed or awk. and a last quick attempt with perl didn't work out, either
<godbyk> thorwil: That's true. Though most regex systems have a flag you can set to allow . to match end-of-line characters.
<godbyk> If SVG is true XML, then we could also use a real XML parser to make the modifications.
<thorwil> godbyk: i think i got sed to handle that, but than stumbled over its greedy matching :)
<godbyk> thorwil: Ha! There's that, too. Another flag can let you work around that sometimes.
<thorwil> godbyk: i considered that, but i doubt we want a dependency on xsltproc or
<thorwil> saxon
<godbyk> Well, it'd really only be a dependency for you or me or whoever generates the title pages and covers.
<benonsoftware> Sorry to bother all but whats the bzr command to get the lastest branch?
<thorwil> godbyk: inkscape --export-pdf=half-title_en.pdf --export-id=title --export-area-page titlepage-en.svg
<godbyk> benonsoftware: bzr pull
<godbyk> benonsoftware: Or if you don't have the precise branch checked out yet: bzr branch lp:ubuntu-manual/precise ubuntu-manual-precise
<godbyk> thorwil: Cool. So the --export-id will snag just the one element we care about?
<thorwil> godbyk: yes. and without --export-area-page, it would use the bounding box of the content
<benonsoftware> Thanks godbyk
<thorwil> godbyk: now, a bash script to generate half-title PDFs for all titlepage_*.svg in the dir, or a script that takes an argument?
<godbyk> thorwil: Probably takes an argument.
<godbyk> thorwil: My inkscape takes so long to start up right now because it has to load my huge font collection.
<godbyk> I wish there were a 'ignore all the fonts but those required for this svg' command-line option. :)
<thorwil> godbyk: here it's instant on the shell, while the gui does take time
<godbyk> I'll give it a shot here.
<godbyk> thorwil: Ah, you're right. It is fast on the command line.
<thorwil> godbyk: i'll write a script that takes an svg as arg and add it to the repo
<godbyk> thorwil: Cool. Thanks!
<thorwil> now how do i combine ${f##titlepage} with ${f%.*}?
<thorwil> to get "-en" out of "titlepage-en.svg", for example
<godbyk> thorwil: In a Makefile or bash script?
<thorwil> bash
<godbyk> thorwil: You could run it through sed: LANG=$(echo $FILENAME | sed -e 's/titlepage-//' -e 's/.svg')
<godbyk> Or you could use bash's substring stuff since the titlepage- prefix is constant.
<godbyk> LANG=$(basename ${FILENAME:10} .svg)
<godbyk> (where 10 is the starting position)
<godbyk> Instead of using the ## and % operators, you could use sed or basename. They're pretty standard.
<godbyk> (I've never actually used the ## and % stuff in bash. Didn't realize they existed. I'll have to try to remember them.)
<thorwil> so far the only way i found to combine them is by using a variable in between
<godbyk> thorwil: I think you may be right.
<godbyk> thorwil: Btw, when I replaced the header.png (UM logo) on our website, I noticed that there's also a header_rtl.png file: http://ubuntu-manual.org/images/header_rtl.png
<godbyk> I'm not sure if it's actually used or not.
<thorwil> godbyk: http://ubuntu-manual.org/?lang=ar
<godbyk> Ah, snazzy!
<godbyk> Do you have an updated RTL logo, then?
<thorwil> godbyk: no, one moment and i create one in that size
<godbyk> thorwil: 'kay. Thanks. No rush!
<thorwil> godbyk: half-title script pushed (rev 93)
<manualbot> http://bazaar.launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual/revision/93 | http://bazaar.launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual -r 93
<godbyk> thorwil: I'll pull it and take a look at it. Thanks!
<thorwil> np
<thorwil> it's pretty nice how handling args as array also makes it work for wildcard expansion
<godbyk> yeah.  well, bash expands the stuff before it passes it in as arguments to the script.
<thorwil> well aware of that, as i wrote enough for-loops for commands that can't handle lists of filenames :)
<godbyk> me too. :)
<thorwil> godbyk: thanks for taking care of replacing the logo
<thorwil> godbyk: rtl version: http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~t-w-/+junk/ubuntu_manual_cover/download/t_w_%40freenet.de-20120609090229-0t4ne2fs4yjl8hyg/ump_logo_h64_rtl.png-20120609090145-8z4980qs6mj5eay8-1/ump_logo_h64_rtl.png
<godbyk> thorwil: No problem.
<godbyk> thorwil: Updated: http://ubuntu-manual.org/?lang=ar
<thorwil> bloddy caching, shift-f5 to the rescue. excellent!
<smjms> hi, anyone here?
<thorwil> hi smjms, yes
<godbyk> Hey, thorwil. I fancied up your half-title page script. Now with colors! (Making errors unreadable. ;-))
<godbyk> Hello, smjms.
<thorwil> godbyk: heh, you don't like short scripts, eh?
<godbyk> thorwil: They're too boring. ;-)
<godbyk> Actually, I figured I'd add in some error-checking to help catch my stupid mistakes later.
<godbyk> Otherwise I end up having to read through the script code to figure out how to run the thing each time.
<smjms> so the manual is made with LaTeX?
<godbyk> smjms: Yes.
<smjms> Why is there no justification?
<godbyk> smjms: Because justifying text can make it difficult to read. Also, having the text set ragged right makes it appear a bit friendlier.  (In short, it was a design decision.)
<smjms> do you know 'microtype' package?
<godbyk> smjms: Yes. Unfortunately, it doesn't work quite as nicely with XeLaTeX.
<smjms> :I oh
<godbyk> thorwil, smjms: Which times symbol do you like better? http://kevin.godby.org/temp/times.png
<smjms> the first one seems a bit too high
<thorwil> yes, too high
<smjms> or the numbers too low
<godbyk> smjms: It's centered vertically (I think), but we're using old-style figures.
<godbyk> We're currently using the second symbol, but I think it's a bit large.
<thorwil> the second doesn't sit quite right, either, but still better
<godbyk> The first Ã is the one that comes with the text face.
<godbyk> I wish I could split the difference. :)
<godbyk> I'm off to bed. i'll see you guys at the meeting later. G'night!
<thorwil> good night!
<smjms> great night!
<smjms> meeting?
<benonsoftware> What time is the meeting at?
<thorwil> benonsoftware, smjms: see http://www.doodle.com/ywrkhi3pa5d6s4kh#
<benonsoftware> Ohm, yes. It's at 3AM for me L.
<benonsoftware> :/*
<thorwil> agenda: http://typewith.me/p/UMP-12-04-5thMeeting
<vibhav> Has the meeting started?
<jconnett_> Greetings!
* godbyk changed the topic of #ubuntu-manual to: Ubuntu Manual Project discussion | Meeting agenda: http://typewith.me/p/UMP-12-04-5thMeeting | Oneiric edition released! | Style Guide: http://files.ubuntu-manual.org/style-guide.pdf | Website: http://ubuntu-manual.org | Launchpad: https://launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual | IRC logs: http://irclogs.ubuntu.com
<hannie> Hello everyone
<PaddyLandau> Hello Hannie
<jimc> Greetings from the Pacific Northwest in USA
<carsten> Hello together
<hannie> hey PaddyLandau glad you join us
<PaddyLandau> Thank you.
 * godbyk is getting a glass of water.. will be right back.
<thorwil> hi everyone
<TonyP> Hi Hannie
<ajmontag> hello all
<hannie> welcome jimc carsten thorwil TonyP
<jimc> ...glad to be here
<kereltis> Hi guys
<hannie> jimc, are you overworked yet? ;)
<hannie> hi kereltis
<godbyk> Hello, everyone.
<jimc> ...funny you should ask...will email the group on a followup to my editing of "getting online" (my head hurts)
<hannie> hey godbyk
<godbyk> c7p said he may be a bit late to today's meeting and that we shouldn't wait on him.
<hannie> jimc, ow
<hannie> ok, then we are complete I suppose
<jimc> Let's go!
<godbyk> All right, we'll get started.
<godbyk> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Sat Jun  9 18:04:51 2012 UTC.  The chair is godbyk. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
<hannie> http://typewith.me/p/UMP-12-04-5thMeeting
<godbyk> The meeting agenda is at <http://typewith.me/p/UMP-12-04-5thMeeting>
<godbyk> #topic Attendance
<godbyk> First off, we'll take attendance.
<godbyk> If everyone present could just say 'hello'.
 * c7p waves
<hannie> hey c7p
<godbyk> Hey, c7p.
<PaddyLandau> hello
<c7p> hello
<thorwil> hello
<kereltis> hello
<TonyP> hello
<jimc> hello
<ajmontag> hello
<carsten> hello
<hannie> hello
<godbyk> Thanks.
<godbyk> #topic New member introductions
<godbyk> Do we have any new members here today?
<PaddyLandau> Yes, I am a new member.
<TonyP> I am Tony Pursell.  I live in the UK.  You can see me at https://launchpad.net/~ajpursell and http://wiki.ubuntu.com/TonyPursell. I have volunteered to do editing on this project
<jimc> I am. Glad to be here.  Have been contributing for about three weeks now. Great project. An honor to be a part of this work in progress.
<PaddyLandau> I see I need to say more. I also live in the UK, in Oxford. I volunteered for proof-reading after being asked to. I am not familiar with IRC, so please forgive me if I make etiquette mistakes.
<godbyk> Awesome! Thanks a lot for your help, guys.  Feel free to pester us with questions on IRC or the mailing list.
<hannie> jimc, PaddyLandau TonyP carsten all new and eager
<PaddyLandau> LOL
<godbyk> #topic Editing and proofreading process / status reports
<godbyk> Our original schedule has 15 June as the deadline for editing.
<godbyk> I wanted to check in with our editors to see how things are going.
<godbyk> Have you hit any snags or encountered any problems?
<godbyk> Are things going fairly smoothly?
<godbyk> Do you think you'll be able to complete your assigned sections/chapters on time?
<hannie> First we want to hear from the editors if they are ok, then I will say something about the status
<jimc> From my vantage, things are going well. Challenges include getting up to speed on tex tags and my obsessive editing.
<ajmontag> Have all the sections been converted from Libre Office to LaTeX that needed to be?
<TonyP> I should be OK with Ubuntu One section. I have done some and will review it again.
<hannie> ajmontag, yes
<jimc> Using the Desktop is pretty much done (will want to do one more pass through in a few days)
<jimc> I just finished editing the Advanced Topics section this morning...will commit and push later today.
<hannie> jimc, that was the chapter that needed a lot of work, so thanks for what you did
<jimc> hannie, no problem...sort of jumped directly into the fire with that one.
<hannie> good!
<jimc> I 'accidentally' edited the Burining CD section last night as well...still needs screenshots.
<hannie> jimc, ok, I will put it on the sheet
<jimc> The GettingOnline section needs more work and I'm taking care of that at this time.
<jimc> Anyone else?
<hannie> If editors have no questions or remarks, shall I proceed with the details?
<PaddyLandau> I have a question as a proof-reader. Is this the right time?
<godbyk> PaddyLandau: Sure, fire away!
<hannie> go ahead
<PaddyLandau> OK...
<PaddyLandau> I have been using gedit and Meld to edit the files. However, they do not show the finished product, which means it is easy to slip in syntax errors, e.g. with tags.
<PaddyLandau> I found that Gummi is a brilliant Latex editor, showing the results as you type.
<PaddyLandau> However...
<PaddyLandau> Gummi does not recognise many of the Ubuntu tags, such as \keystroke.
<PaddyLandau> Does anyone know if it is possible to add the Ubuntu style files (well, I'm presuming they are style files -- I may wrong) to Gummi?
<PaddyLandau> If not, don't worry, I'll just continue with gedit and Meld.
<TonyP> I just keep re-making the PDF
<PaddyLandau> That's quite tiresome, isn't it?
<godbyk> PaddyLandau: I haven't used Gummi. I'm not sure if it's possible to teach it the Ubuntu Manual tags or not. Sorry.
<jimc> WineFish is a great editor, especially with regards to tags (open close brackets)...parallels what you'd see in an IDE environment.  Worth a try.
<PaddyLandau> WineFish. I'll try it, thanks.
<hannie> PaddyLandau, you have installed TeX Live, so you can make the pdf file any time you want
<c7p> from what is see Gummi has  		Customizable compilation/typesetting options , is that what we need ?
<PaddyLandau> Hannie: I'll learn how to do that and see. It's not quite the same as seeing it immediately, but it would help.
<hannie> no wysiwyg
<PaddyLandau> c7p: Where did you see those options?
<jimc> I think getting everyone on the same editing environment would definitely advance the editing process...common environment, common configuration. May be a good thing to pursue for 12.10.
<c7p> http://dev.midnightcoding.org/projects/gummi/wiki/Index
<godbyk> PaddyLandau: Can gummi not compile the manual?
<PaddyLandau> c7p: Thanks, I'll look into it.
<jimc> I've tried Gummi, too...no compilation.
<PaddyLandau> godbyl: No, it cannot, because it does not recognise the Ubuntu tags.
<hannie> jimc, I think it does not matter what editor you use, as long as you put in the right code
<godbyk> Strange.
<PaddyLandau> Well, I'll have a look into it, and if I find an answer, I'll let you all know. Thanks for all the replies.
<godbyk> PaddyLandau: Make sure you have gummi compile using XeLaTeX instead of pdfLaTeX.
<godbyk> PaddyLandau: Otherwise, it should find the Ubuntu Manualâspecific stuff in the same directory as the main .tex file.
<PaddyLandau> Hmm, these are things I don't quite understand. Is that in the Gummi options?
<jimc> hannie, but a lack of uniformity in how we implement tags could be easily resolved with an importable xml file into any editor
<godbyk> PaddyLandau: Looking at the screenshots, it's under preferences > compilation tab > texlive with xetex
<jimc> PaddyLandau, I'll give this a try!  Thanks.  Would be nice to see edits live.
 * c7p it looks interesting 
<hannie> I suggest we exchange experiences with Gummi on the mailing list
<PaddyLandau> Ah, I see that. I do not have the option to change it. It is set at TexLive with PdfTex, and the other options are greyed out.
<jimc> I also have a question (seems a little pithy with the previous discussion)...
<godbyk> There are other editors that can do some live compiling, too.  I believe TeXworks can do that.
<jimc> Can we agree on one space after a period or two?  I think the accepted standard is ONE, but I'm seeing both.
<hannie> jimc, one
<PaddyLandau> godbyk: I'll have a look at TeXworks, thanks.
<godbyk> jimc: It doesn't matter in the source. LaTeX will use the proper spacing when it typesets it.
<hannie> two is one too much
<jimc> godbyk, AWESOME...thanks.
<PaddyLandau> jimc: Two spaces came from the old days of manual and electronic typewriters; one space is handled correctly with modern automated typesetting.
<PaddyLandau> So, one space is the standard these days.
<jimc> PaddyLandau, beauty!  No more looking for spaces.
<jimc> I have no more questions.
<hannie> thanks for the tip, godbyk didn't know that
<godbyk> Okay, hannie. Did you want to talk about editing a bit?
<hannie> ok, I will talk about some details (agenda)
<hannie> 1. Allow authors to write in LO
<hannie> I think it is too much work converting odt files, so I am against it
<godbyk> We'll put these under their own topics to make the minutes easier to read.
<godbyk> #topic Editing with LibreOffice
<hannie> right
<hannie> What do other think about this?
<hannie> *others
<PaddyLandau> I personally would find editing in LO a distraction, because it would all have to be converted to LaTex.
<godbyk> I tend to agree with hannie: I think it's easier if we get edited .tex files (even if they have syntax errors or other issues).
<carsten> Sorry, I lost internet connection...
<jimc> I agree, too, Hannie.  Our previous discussion about editing applications prove that there is really no advantage to using LO.
<thorwil> it could be handled, if there was automatic conversion
<carsten> What did I miss?
<thorwil> but i guess we have no one deep enough in LO/ODF to take care of that
<c7p> i agree too
<hannie> carsten, we currently talk about odt file conversion
<PaddyLandau> carsten: Is it possible to cut-and-paste and send it to you?
<kereltis> I think it's a good idea, it will attract more authors/editors to the project and then we can say the manual was created using stock Ubuntu.
<jimc> Most tex editors are simply TEXT editors at heart (can you say Windows NotePad?)...with added features if desired.
<c7p> we should take that into consideration too kereltis
<hannie> I agree here. Authors do not necessarily have to add latex code. others can do it for them
<ajmontag> regarding odt conversion: I found that things like marginnotes, screenshot marginnotes, and menu -> traills did not get written properly in LO
<PaddyLandau> One problem with using LO is that you may be tempted to use features that LaTex does not support. That would hinder the process of converting.
<godbyk> Has anyone here been using LibreOffice to write/edit sections or chapters?
<jimc> IF we go this path, we may need a little more organization at the odt integration level...seems we got a few "late" submissions this time around.
<carsten> PaddyLandau: You mean an odf file? Sure send it.
<jimc> godbyk, not I.
<hannie> carsten, is the specialist here ;)
<carsten> Best would be to the list
<carsten> Well, specialist is good^^
<godbyk> Okay.
<carsten> Most of this work is handmade :-)
<hannie> PaddyLandau, you can save an odt file as a text file and then add the code
<godbyk> When I've converted from LibreOffice files to .tex files, I found that it took a lot of work to add the markup by hand after the fact.
<godbyk> I had to read through everything carefully and decide myself how to tag everything. (And to figure out when the author wanted something to be a margin note, for instance.)
<jimc> godbyk, haven't done this, but EASILY agree based on my new experiences.
<hannie> So, may we conclude that it is better NOT to write in LO?
<PaddyLandau> Hannie: I suppose I could, but gedit colours the tags and other code to make it easier to follow. LO does not do that.
<ajmontag> I think it would be better to force people to write in LaTeX, but then have designated LaTeX proofreaders for those who are not confident
<PaddyLandau> ajmontag: That makes sense to me.
<godbyk> I propose the following:
<hannie> ajmontag, no, they can write in a normal text editor
<ajmontag> godbyk: i agree
<jimc> ajmontag, and by doing this (specific LaTeX editors), you will bring uniformity to the tags...brilliant!
<godbyk> We'll disallow LibreOffice. For those who don't want to or aren't able to compile the .tex files, they can submit their .tex files to an editor and have one of them check the syntax and commit it to bzr.
<PaddyLandau> jimc, etc.: Surely the person can use whichever *text* editor he prefers?
<hannie> +1
<ajmontag> hannie, jimc: I think people can use any editor (i use Sublime Text 2)
<godbyk> PaddyLandau: I think you can use whichever text editor you like.
<PaddyLandau> godbyk: Cool. If we can find a LaTex editor that recognises Ubuntu tags, that would help things, but it wouldn't be mandatory.
<ajmontag> text editors are a personal preference
<jimc> ...I meant specific PEOPLE who would be designated as LaTeX editors.
<godbyk> PaddyLandau: Right. You can also run 'make' from the command line to build the PDF.
<jimc> ...the small group of LaTeX editors could agree on tags to use, when, etc.
<ajmontag> jimc, good idea
<hannie> jimc, that is how it mainly works at this moment (latex editors who check/add code where necessary)
<PaddyLandau> We have the style-sheet guide already, to which I have been referring quite often.
<TonyP> Can you just compile small sections to PDF?
<godbyk> TonyP: There's no easy way to do that at the moment, I'm afraid.
<jimc> hannie, PaddyLandau, true.
<TonyP> Pity
<godbyk> Speaking of the style guide, if anyone has any questions / suggestions / comments / concerns / etc. about it please email me.
<PaddyLandau> godbyk: That would be a problem for me, as I only get short sections to proof-read. That's why I wanted something like Gummi (sorry to mention it again).
<carsten> TonyP, yes. Just comment all sections which you don't want to see in the main.tex
<jimc> TonyP, agreed.  That would be NICE!
<jimc> carsten, UGH!  That would take forever, wouldn't it?
<hannie> PaddyLandau, you can easily navigate to "your" section in the pdf file
<godbyk> My only concern with modifying main.tex to only show your chapter is that it might accidentally get committed to bzr.
<PaddyLandau> Hannie: Yes, I have been doing that. But I would not be able to "make" the PDF file from the section that you have given me, so I have no way to check my editing for syntax or other errors, apart from spelling mistakes.
<godbyk> PaddyLandau: Ah, right. You'll need all the .tex files to build the PDF.
<hannie> PaddyLandau, why don't you just navigate to the section you are working on to check it?
<jimc> Me thinks it would be MUCH faster to re-make everytime than to comment out sections.
<godbyk> jimc: Probably.
<TonyP> Is it possible to have a make option to use a mymain.tex
<jimc> hannie, I think PaddyLandau is trying to find a way to ONLY compile the section being edited rather than the 150 page manual each time a change is made.
<PaddyLandau> godbyk: That's right. That's why I'd love a text editor that shows changes on-the-fly. I will take today's suggestions to try to find out how to fix Gummi or an equivalent to recognise Ubuntu's tags, and let you all know if I succeed.
<PaddyLandau> Hannie: I can't do that, because I can't make the PDF.
<hannie> I see no need for making separate sections/chapters. Make only takes less than a minute
<godbyk> It does take a little time to learn to trust your abilities in editing the .tex files. But after a while, you find that you don't need to rebuild the PDF as frequently to check formatting, etc.
<hannie> It is done in a jiffy
<jimc> godbyk, experience speaking, I agree.
<ajmontag> godbyk, agreed. Once you are comfortable with the tags its not a big deal
<PaddyLandau> Maybe I'm missing something. Is it possible to make the PDF when I have just the one section that I am proof-reading?
<hannie> godbyk, enough said on LO?
<jimc> PaddyLandau, NO.
<ajmontag> If you are unsure you can always check the style guide :)
<godbyk> PaddyLandau: No. You need the entire bzr repository to build the PDF
<PaddyLandau> godbyk: Yes, that's what I was thinking.
<jimc> godbyk, yes
<godbyk> hannie: I think so.
<godbyk> Let's move on to our next agenda item.
<jimc> GO
<godbyk> #topic Authors and editors working as a team
<godbyk> Hannie?
<hannie> https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Ar0Z6vOO38EydEdaSnhSX2M2WDdSZ3VGQk1qMDZBbHc#gid=1
<carsten> Well jimc, I yust tried the \begin{comment   \end{comment} in main.tex to compile only the installation section. It took the only 15 sec compared to the whole document with 1 minute.
<hannie> Status draft
<hannie> godbyk, I pasted a link to our spreadsheet where everyone can see the current status
<jimc> carsten, AHHHH, my bad...forgot about the main.tex file.  I was thinking all sub- .tex files would need editing!  My apologies.
<godbyk> carsten: You might also look into the \includeonly macro. But be careful that you never commit your main.tex changes to bzr. It'll confuse everyone else. :-)
<carsten> Yes of course godbyk.
<c7p> gj hannie
<hannie> Have a look at the sheet 12.04 finished
<godbyk> hannie: Thanks. Are there sections that still need editors or do we have everything covered now?
<carsten> I use Bazaar Explorer, who is showing very well which files are modified.
<hannie> I think we can cover it with the team of editors we have
<hannie> Thanks to all their hard work!
<jimc> ....not to throw us off topic, but one quick question...
<hannie> jimc, ?
<jimc> will we have a debrief after 12.04 is released? I have a few suggestions on the editing process (structurally).
<godbyk> jimc: Absolutely.
<hannie> good suggestion
<jimc> Great.  Thanks.
<PaddyLandau> Another off-topic: May I ask why the deadline for the manual is *after* the release of the distribution? It seems the wrong way around to me.
<godbyk> jimc: We'd definitely like to gather suggestions and ideas for improving the process for 12.10.
<jimc> godbyk, count me in!
<hannie> PaddyLandau, not everyone installs the beta version in VM
<godbyk> PaddyLandau: Well, we got a late start.
<jimc> PaddyLandau, the software has to be released in it's final version before a manual can be written.
<PaddyLandau> Hannie, godbyk, jimc: OK.
<godbyk> PaddyLandau: Also, we do have to wait to take screenshots until after UI freeze, for instance.
<PaddyLandau> Right, makes sense.
<hannie> I think the difference between precise and quantal will be even smaller
<kereltis> PaddyLandau, we're working on ways to improve this and we have created a guide for installing the beta in a vm for new authors
<godbyk> We could write a lot of the manual earlier -- as long as they don't change things at the last minute. :)
<jimc> LTS vs minor!  Wohoo!
<PaddyLandau> LOL, godbyk, yes, I know exactly what you mean! It has been done with Precise.
<hannie> Next time we'll do it in one month :)
<c7p> hell yeah !
<godbyk> hannie: Shall we move on to the next topic or did you have more to say on this one?
<jimc> hannie, you a taskmaster!
<hannie> godbyk, ok
<godbyk> #topic Style guide
<hannie> godbyk, you forgot teams
<godbyk> This deals with when you use \menu vs. \application. The capitalization and spelling of words. Etc.
<godbyk> hannie: That's what we were just discussing. :)
<godbyk> Do you want to go back to that?
<hannie> godbyk, the previous item was "Status draft"
<godbyk> hannie: The previous topic was "Authors and editors working as a team"
<godbyk> #topic Authors and editors working as a team (redux)
<hannie> Well, I just wanted to know from authors/editors if they want to use a shared document
<godbyk> hannie: Ah, go ahead.
<hannie> In the previous meeting Bryan explained how we worked with Learning More
<hannie> We use a shared document (just publish the .tex file in UbuntuOne)
<PaddyLandau> A shared document would be a problem if there was not strict locking on sections that were being worked on. I don't know, however, how it would affect your (Hannie's) workflow as a controller.
<hannie> So author and editor can see what is changed and they can discuss it if necessary
<hannie> PaddyLandau, you share it only with your editor
<godbyk> PaddyLandau: I think the document is shared only between the author and their section/chapter editor.
<PaddyLandau> Oh, I see. How would it work exactly?
<hannie> The author publishes his .tex file, the editor adds changes which the author can see
<PaddyLandau> OK. That would do away with your current method of working with Meld, I suppose?
<jimc> PaddyLandau, if there were locking controls in shared environment where only "assigned" editors would have access to authored sections, then I would be in agreement with this approach.
<hannie> if there is a disagreement or a special point they can discuss it in the comment section
<PaddyLandau> I don't have a problem with that, as long as the editor in question highlights the syntax (as gedit does at the moment).
<hannie> It worked well for me, so if others want to do the same they can do so
<PaddyLandau> Without that highlighting, it becomes hard to find one's way around.
<godbyk> PaddyLandau: You could use whichever text editor you like. It'll be a .tex file on your computer.
<jimc> Maybe try this approach with 12.10 since we've already established it would be minor at best?
<jimc> hannie, would this create another layer of management and logistics for you?
<hannie> ok, I can describe this in an email to the m/list
<hannie> jimc, it would need less emails from my side
<carsten> hannie: this would be good
<jimc> hannie, good that it's a win for you, then.
<PaddyLandau> I have no objection if it helps your workflow.
<hannie> Now I function as an intermediate
<hannie> ok, I will send an email on this
<hannie> for the next version
<jimc> I think this is a great idea!
<hannie> godbyk, before you get confused, next item is create wiki page ;)
<jimc> Could we get U1 to comp us a 10GB space? (*grin*)
<godbyk> hannie: I like to reword them to confuse you. :-P
<ajmontag> I have to leave, its nice to have such a good turn out! Thanks for all your work, editors!
<godbyk> #topic Style guide
<hannie> lol
<godbyk> Thanks for coming, ajmontag.
<hannie> bye ajmontag thank you for being with us
<PaddyLandau> Bye ajmontag
<jimc> Style guide...GO
<kereltis> cya ajmontag
<carsten> Bye ajmontag
<c7p> cya
<hannie> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-manual
<kereltis> very nice!
<hannie> I am thinking of using a wiki page where everyone can add remarks, rules etc. See my link
 * godbyk is scared to look at the ancient wiki. 
<c7p> :P
<hannie> we can wipe out what's there and use it for other things
<godbyk> I think that the good part of using a wiki for the style guide stuff is that it's easy for everyone to access.  (Easier than downloading a PDF, at least.)
<godbyk> A bad point is that anyone can change it so we may lose consistency.
<hannie> Example: our translation team uses a wiki vocabulary where everyone can add words
<PaddyLandau> hannie, what sort of remarks? I notice in the agenda that you mention things like tags, panels, and so forth. But aren't they all already in the style guide?
<jimc> I agree with godbyk...more dynamic...seemingly less work in the end.
<kereltis> sticking with the LTS latest LTS release is probably a good thing though so it's not really that old :)
<hannie> PaddyLandau, I gave the \menu example because in the previous version we used \application{Dash}
<jimc> I also agree with godbyk (again)...welcome to the world of WIKIs!
<PaddyLandau> Right, so it would list things that you may not be aware of that have changed in the guide?
<PaddyLandau> And other things, too, I realise.
<hannie> Wiki's have advantages and disadvantages
<godbyk> Our current style guide is at <http://files.ubuntu-manual.org/style-guide.pdf>
<PaddyLandau> godbyk: Yes, I refer to that quite often.
<godbyk> I update it occasionally, but haven't been keeping up with it as much as I'd like.
<godbyk> I'm definitely open to suggestions with regard to the style guide.
<hannie> I do not mean to put the style guide on a wiki. I talk about general rules (grammar, spelling, etc.)
<PaddyLandau> And with a Wiki, it would take some of the pressure of you?
<godbyk> I most recently added a Word List chapter that shows the proper spelling and formatting of some terms. I plan on expanding this greatly as I edit the 12.04 manual.
<carsten> godbyk, one point for the pdf style guide: It doesnt
<carsten> ... need so much empty pages. It is no book to print, or?
<hannie> ok, my suggestion for a wiki page is not such a good one. NP:)
<godbyk> carsten: Ah, you're probably right. I'm just using the same template as we're using for the manual itself.
<godbyk> hannie: We could add some of that to the style guide, too.
<jimc> Hmm...I'm leaning more toward the style guide being more "controlled" than what is offered in a wiki environment.
<carsten> I think, its a working document, where you want to see a lot information with one view
<godbyk> hannie: Though I think it may be easier to point to existing sources for general grammar rules.  (There are too many for us to cover alone.)
<godbyk> The Ubuntu Docs wiki has a style guide with some grammar remarks (though not nearly exhaustive).
<hannie> right. One more remark on this:
<godbyk> jimc: I agree with you there.
<hannie> we discussed on the list when to add the tag \application and when not. But I cannot find it in the archive
<godbyk> Here's the docs team style guide: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/StyleGuide
<hannie> Therefore I was thinking of putting things we discussed on a wiki page
<hannie> or in the style guide (even better)
<TonyP> The style guide seems wrong about \application
<hannie> TonyP, we discussed in on the mailing list
<carsten> And for the wiki version of the style guide: You can get emails from the system, if the page is changed, so you can easily follow any modification.
<hannie> but I forgot what we decided
<godbyk> TonyP: In what way?
 * godbyk pulls up his copy of the style guide.
<hannie> godbyk, in Browsing the web I see a lot of \application{Dash}
<hannie> and \aplication{Launcher}
<hannie> *p
<TonyP> What should it do?
<hannie> \menu
<godbyk> hannie: I noticed that the other day, too, but haven't fixed it yet. Since those aren't stand-alone applications, I don't think they should be tagged as such.
<hannie> No, we discussed that on the mailing list like I said
<godbyk> TonyP: At the moment, it doesn't do anything. It used to mark the text in bold and add an entry to the index automatically.
<hannie> godbyk, is tag \application no longer an entry to the index?
<godbyk> hannie: It isn't at the moment, though we can add that back easily enough.
<hannie> the disadvantage is that if you use it all the time the index gets clogged
<godbyk> hannie: Here's an old thread about \application: https://lists.launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual/msg02835.html
<godbyk> We discussed it more recently, too. Lemme find the thread.
<hannie> Yes, I remember we discussed \index with MarioB
<godbyk> Okay, it looks like the more recent thread isn't in the archives yet.
<hannie> Again, when we decide something via the list it should be noted somewhere
<TonyP> The Style Guide says: The names of applications should be typeset with the
<TonyP> \application command. îis will add the application to the index auto-
<TonyP> matically.
<godbyk> It has the subject "Authors/editors chapter 2" and is dated May 23.
<godbyk> We discussed \application and \menu with jimc.
<hannie> Question: if the word Nautilus is used many times, should it always get the tag \applicatio?
<hannie> *n
<godbyk> TonyP: That used to be true. Now it's still true except for the index bit. (Though that may change soon, too. I'll have to try it and see what we didn't like about it.)
<PaddyLandau> Here we are: https://lists.launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual/msg03085.html
<godbyk> PaddyLandau: Thanks!
<godbyk> So the message that I wrote in that thread was <https://lists.launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual/msg03093.html>
<godbyk> Something else we need to decide on is when/how to capitalize dash, launcher, etc.
<godbyk> The official Ubuntu docs seems to be inconsistent there, so we'll have to decide for ourselves how to handle this issue.
<hannie> godbyk, you took the words right out of my mouth ;)
<jimc> So...Dash, Launcher are /menu, Nautilus is /application, right?
<hannie> Dash or dash, Launcher or launcher is what I wanted to ask
<PaddyLandau> I agree that \application is only for what the general user would perceive as a program, and not for the dash or launcher.
<jimc> ...sorry, slashes the other way.
<PaddyLandau> I would always use capital letters for Dash and Launcher, as they are specific names for specific items quite unique to Ubuntu.
<jimc> I agree with PaddyLandau
<TonyP> Me too
<godbyk> jimc: I would use \menu for dash and launcher.
<hannie> +1
<PaddyLandau> Agreed.
<godbyk> jimc: \menu is only for pull-down menus like File, Edit, View.
<godbyk> jimc: And menu items like Open..., Save, Print..., Copy, etc.
<godbyk> jimc: You can also use \menu for menu items under the indicator menus.
<c7p> i don't have strong opinion here
<PaddyLandau> If not \menu for Dash or Launcher, then what?
<hannie> godbyk, in the previous discussion I thought it was decided to use \menu{Dash}
<godbyk> PaddyLandau: They don't necessarily need a tag.
<PaddyLandau> OK
<c7p> doesn't emph works ?
<PaddyLandau> I would use \emph only when introducing the words Dash or Launcher, otherwise it becomes a visual distraction.
<godbyk> c7p: \emph should only be used for \emph{adding emphesis} and not for formatting text (like names of things).
<hannie> So, conclusion: no tag for Dash and Launcher?
<c7p> ah ok
<PaddyLandau> OK
<godbyk> For now, I'd say no tag for Dash or Launcher.
<godbyk> Next question: Should we capitalize Dash/dash and Launcher/launcher?
<jimc> I'm good with no tags for Dash and Launcher, although it does require us to redit our sections.
<hannie> ok. How do we let those who are not present know?
<jimc> mailing-list
<godbyk> jimc: I can fix those pretty quickly. It's not a big deal.
<godbyk> I'll add it to the style guide and we can send a message to the mailing list as well.
<hannie> problem with m/list is that it comes and goes
<jimc> godbyk, ok.
<hannie> godbyk, good idea
<PaddyLandau> godbyk: "Should we capitalize Dash/dash and Launcher/launcher?" I am of the opinion that these are proper names, because they are specific items unique to Ubuntu.
<godbyk> hannie: That's what the new Word List chapter is for in the style guide. To track these little details. :)
<jimc> hannie, then do the mailing list, edit the style guide
<hannie> I am totally happy with that solution ;)
<jimc> I agree with PaddyLandau, it should be Dash and Launcher
<carsten> +1
<TonyP> +1
<hannie> godbyk, I think we have said enough about editing
<godbyk> Sounds good.  I'll add the capitalization note to the style guide, too, then.
<hannie> please do
<godbyk> As you're editing, if you encounter inconsistencies or have questions about how to format something, please email me and I'll help you out.
<godbyk> That'll also prompt me to add a note about it to the style guide so we can keep track of these things.
<godbyk> Are there any other questions at the moment about style, formatting, etc.?
<jimc> Do we want to talk briefly about indexing?
<godbyk> If not, we'll move to the next topic.
<godbyk> #topic Indexing the manual
<hannie> jimc, it is an item on the agenda
<godbyk> TonyP: Are you our indexer?
<TonyP> No, I just want to know about it
<hannie> it says: benonsoftware
<godbyk> Our manual's index hasn't been that great in the past and it'd be nice to make it useful.
<godbyk> TonyP: Okay, thanks.
<hannie> And didn't Mario do it the last time?
<godbyk> The way indexing works in LaTeX is that you add \index macros in the text where you refer to something that should appear in the index.
<c7p> he did a try at the last minute
<godbyk> The syntax for the \index macro is a bit complicated when you first discover it.
<jimc> I completely agree with godbyk.  This is a key area (from the user's perspective) that needs to be addressed.
<hannie> c7p, do you know who benonsoftware is and if he is doing glossary and index?
<godbyk> Since indexing requires that we edit each of the .tex files in the manual to add \index commands, I generally recommend waiting until the other editors have finished their work.
<jimc> godbyk, there are enough examples that if people just tried it a few times, they'd see the results.  That's how I learned.
<c7p> nope
<c7p> but he is on channel !
<godbyk> This means that the text shouldn't change any more and that the indexer won't cause bzr conflicts.
<TonyP> I am editing the Ubuntu One section and there are no index entries for it
<jimc> I've been adding index entries as I've been going along...
<hannie> c7p grey
<jimc> ...mostly based on the \subsection headings.
<godbyk> I'll contact benonsoftware to see if he's still interested in indexing the manual and work with him on the \index syntax and how to go about indexing.
<jimc> It's very easy to do as editors.
<c7p> good
<godbyk> If anyone else is interested in indexing their own sections/chapters, let me know and I'll help you out.
<godbyk> I need to write up some notes on it and add them to the style guide.
<PaddyLandau> godbyk: Please do write it up.
<jimc> I still think there needs to be a point person on indexing and glossary to ensure document consistency.
<godbyk> Indexing isn't too difficult. The biggest problems are: (1) figuring out the \index syntax, and (2) knowing what's good to add to the index and how to phrase it.
<godbyk> jimc: I agree.
<godbyk> Per hannie's spreadsheet, benonsoftware said he'd handle the index and glossary.
<godbyk> So we'll ping him and see if he's still up for that.
<jimc> godbyk, probably one of the last "steps" before publication.
<c7p> anyone here interested in indexing ?
<godbyk> jimc: Definitely.
<jimc> I will.
<jimc> When is the due date for the manual?
<PaddyLandau> 15th.
<jimc> the FINAL version
<godbyk> jimc: 30 June is when we'll release the final PDF and printed editions.
<hannie> June 30
<jimc> My opinion only, the indexing and glossary work should be done at a time when the manual is "frozen"
<kereltis> jimc, good point
<TonyP> Can I suggest...
<hannie> godbyk, I think we could be a week earlier since there should not be a week between end of editing and crocodoc
<godbyk> hannie: True. We'll see how it goes.
<jimc> crocodoc?
<godbyk> jimc: crocodoc is a website that allows online annotation of PDFs.
<godbyk> jimc: It's handy for having lots of people proofread your PDF.
<TonyP> Anyone can put in \index entries subject to so overall edit/review
<jimc> godbyk, ahh, ok.  Newbie here, remember!
<godbyk> jimc: See <ubuntu-manual.org/proofread/gswu1110/en> for example.
<hannie> I thought it very handy in the previous version (crocodoc)
<godbyk> jimc: No problem!
<godbyk> TonyP: Yes, I think that's fine. As long as people don't get *too* carried away with it. :)
<godbyk> I sneaked in an agenda item:
<jimc> Sorry to be anal about this, but users will more likely than not use the index to find how to do something...and will be less likely to read the manual cover to cover.  Therefore, the index (and glossary) is crucial to the success of the user and the utility of our work on this project.
<godbyk> #topic Screenshot editors
<godbyk> We've discussed this a bit previously and someone volunteered (I don't recall who). But I think we should have one or two screenshot editors to take/retake all the screenshots for the entire manual.
<TonyP> jimc: I agree
<godbyk> This will help ensure consistency.
<c7p> me too
<hannie> jimc, I agree on the need for a very good index
<godbyk> jimc: I agree completely. That's why I'd like to see the index improved greatly.
<jimc> I agree with the "screenshot" team
<jimc> godbyk, count me in....however I can help, I will.
<kereltis> agree with the "screenshot" team
<c7p> +1
<hannie> godbyk, I want to do screenshot editing as well
<godbyk> Okay.
<hannie> ah, 2 is enough: c7p and kereltis
<c7p> many of the screenshots have to be recaptured
<godbyk> Excellent.
<godbyk> Can you two coordinate between yourselves and retake all of the screenshots for the manual?
<c7p> i see that some of them have a red login button, others have been captured with a large resolutons etc
<godbyk> There are some screenshots that are still missing, too.
<c7p> that too
<godbyk> c7p: Right. We need to make sure that all the screenshots are taken at the same resolution.
<jimc> ...another Style Guide entry:  Screnshot resolution!
<c7p> there are also some great screenshots, so i guess they dont have to retake all the screenshots
<jimc> What defines great?
<PaddyLandau> Also sizes of screen-shots; there would need to be a maximum size to fit in a readable way.
<godbyk> With the default desktop and settings. Preferably with the same username, even.
<c7p> captured according to instructions + good looking on the pdf
<godbyk> c7p: Possibly. Though it's probably best to retake them anyway just in case.
<c7p> ok
<jimc> c7p, the first one requirement is subjective, the 2nd is objective
<hannie> godbyk, can you put my screenshot instructions in the style guide too?
<c7p> but in any case start from the problematic screenshots
<godbyk> hannie: Yep!
<hannie> thanks
<c7p> jimc: nope, 2nd isn't objective, i mean how clear a screenshot is
<jimc> c7p, I ask only to help the team determine what needs to be redone and what is acceptable...retaking ALL the screenshots seems to be a LOT of work.
<carsten> Just for interest: What is with this quickshot program?
<c7p> i agree with you
<godbyk> carsten: It's dead in the water at the moment.
<godbyk> carsten: We don't have anyone developing it.
<carsten> I thought it was desinged for this purpose?
<carsten> ah ok
<c7p> guys i g2g
<c7p> i'll check the logs later
<hannie> cya c7p
<carsten> bye c7p
<PaddyLandau> Goodbye
<godbyk> Okay, see you later, c7p!
<TonyP> bye c7p
<kereltis> cya c7p
<godbyk> I think that settles the screenshot editors topic, then.
<godbyk> #topic Any other questions or business?
<godbyk> Does anyone have any other questions or issues to raise?
<hannie> I have no questions
<PaddyLandau> Not from me.
<kereltis> not from me
<jimc> Lots to digest, but I think I'm good (if not, you'll see me in the mailing-list!)
<godbyk> Okay, sounds good guys.
<godbyk> Keep up the great work!
<carsten> One
<TonyP> OK with me
<jimc> Would it be good to quickly revie w the upcoming due dates>
<godbyk> If you have any questions during the week, feel free to ping us here in the IRC channel or on the mailing list.
<carsten> When starts translation the manual?
<godbyk> jimc: Sure.
<hannie> Thanks all for the work you do for our manual
<godbyk> Upcoming milestones:
<godbyk> June 15 â Editors have edited and proofread content.
<godbyk> June 22 â Release a draft for public comment and proofreading for one week.  Incorporate changes as they are suggested.
<godbyk> June 27 â Final draft is complete and all last-minute changes have been made.
<godbyk> June 30 â The final PDF is released on our website and printed copies can be purchased via lulu.com.
<godbyk> carsten: The translations won't start until after we've published the final PDF.
<carsten> ok
<godbyk> carsten: We have to wait until all the .tex files are finalized before we can upload the translation template file.
<jimc> When should final indexing/glossary begin/end?
<godbyk> hannie: We may use that June 15â22 week to update the screenshots, index, and glossary. We'll have to see how things go.
<jimc> OK
<hannie> godbyk, again a good idea
<PaddyLandau> I have to go now. Have a good night or day wherever you are in the world :)
<godbyk> G'night, PaddyLandau.
<hannie> thanks for coming PaddyLandau see you
<kereltis> cya PaddyLandau
<carsten> bye Paddy
<godbyk> If there are no other questions or issues, I'll wrap this up.
<jimc> Cheers, PaddyLandau
<godbyk> #endmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting ended Sat Jun  9 19:49:34 2012 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes (wiki):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-manual/2012/ubuntu-manual.2012-06-09-18.04.moin.txt
<meetingology> Minutes (html):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-manual/2012/ubuntu-manual.2012-06-09-18.04.html
<hannie> godbyk, thank you for being chair
<godbyk> I'm often on IRC, so feel free to ping me if you have questions.
<godbyk> The mailing list also works well.
<godbyk> hannie: np
<hannie> Have a good weekend all of you
<godbyk> I'll write up the meeting minutes and send them to the mailing list later today or tomorrow.
<kereltis> Thanks for coming everyone and for the hard work! I'll be in the mailing list, have a great weekend all!
<godbyk> I'll also update the style guide this weekend.
<carsten> thanks, same to you
<TonyP> bye all
<jimc> Thanks everyone!  Looking forward to the final product!
<carsten> bye all
<godbyk> Goodbye, carsten.
<godbyk> I'm going to head out, too. I'll be back in a few hours.
#ubuntu-manual 2012-06-10
<godbyk> Hey, benonsoftware. Are you around?
<benonsoftware> For a bit
<godbyk> I just wanted to know if you were still interested in helping with indexing the manual.
<benonsoftware> Yes I am
<godbyk> Awesome. I've got a couple other guys to help out, too.
<benonsoftware> Cool
<godbyk> I'm going to write up some instructions and email them out this week.
<godbyk> Thanks!
<benonsoftware> THanks
<benonsoftware> Sorry for not being at the meeting before
<godbyk> No problem. You can't make it to all of them. :)
<godbyk> It's hard to schedule them at a time when *everyone* can be there.
<benonsoftware> Yeah :)
<godbyk> Our team members are scattered all around the world. Someone's always going to be asleep at the time. :)
<benonsoftware> and being in UTC+10 is hard :P
<godbyk> I hear ya.
<benonsoftware> What time zone are you in?
<godbyk> I'm in UTC-0500 (US/Central).
<benonsoftware> Ah, must be a bit late for you now then
<godbyk> It's 21:31 here.
<godbyk> Not that late yet.  But I've been sleeping during the day, so my bedtime is probably about the same as yours!
<benonsoftware> :P
<godbyk> I did just email the list with meeting minutes, however. So you won't miss out on too much.  You can also read the irc logs if you want all the gory details.
<benonsoftware> I am now ;)
#ubuntu-manual 2013-06-08
<c7p> hey all !
<CarstenG> Hi John.
<cqfd93> Hi All!
<CarstenG> Hi Sylvie!
 * JimConnett waves at everyone!
<CarstenG> Hi Jim!
 * JimConnett appreciates others who arrive a few minutes early to a meeting!
<cqfd93> :-)
<CarstenG> Hi Mario!
<JimConnett> One bad thing about not using IRC as much as I need to is my inability to convert a nick of "LaughingPsychoClown" to Bob Smith.
 * JimConnett will catch on soon :)
<JimConnett> But if I would just look in the FQDN string, I'd see CrustyBarnacle is actually Mario! So, greetings Mario!
<JimConnett> ...not rocket-science.
<CrustyBarnacle> Howdy! all
<CrustyBarnacle> I've been using Crusty for a while for my online interactions :-)
<CrustyBarnacle> brb
<jmarsden> Hi.  Hopefully phillw and yorvyk will join us here soon too
<CarstenG> Well, I think we will wait some minutes until everyone has joined.
<hannie> hi mario, sylvie, carsten, jim, kevin, john
<CarstenG> Hi Hannie!
<cqfd93> hi hannie!
<phillw> sorry, I was in #ubuntu-meeting!
<CrustyBarnacle> Hola! Buenos dias :-) Hannie
<hannie> phillw, you're not too late ;)
<hannie> buenos dias amigo
<hannie> que tal?
<hannie> Let's wait for Kevin, ok?
<hannie> I have pasted some notes here: http://pastebin.com/Cw5KU51h
<CrustyBarnacle> working on using Espanol mas
<jmarsden> Might be good to repost that link after #startmeeting so it gets into the minutes
<hannie> ok, will do that
<jmarsden> Donde esta Kevin?
<hannie> Ah, if only we knew. I give him 4 more minutes....
 * JimConnett thinks I need to open Google Translate in another tab...my Spanish is a bit rusty (so far, so good...but later? eh.)
<hannie> Having a good conversation in Spanish would be a real challenge
<CrustyBarnacle> I'm trying to use it more at home so my little boy learns it :-p... it was my first language, just don't use it much anymore.
<CrustyBarnacle> as for Kevin.. quein sabe
<hannie> CrustyBarnacle, I will wait until 20:10
<jmarsden> El espaÃ±ol es una lengua fÃ¡cil. PruÃ©belo!
<hannie> Muy fÃ¡cil, si
<JimConnett> (translation) Who knows!
<CrustyBarnacle> Mira estos. Hablan como que si saben ;-)
<JimConnett> (translation) Spanish is an easy language. Try it!
<hannie> Ok, I suggest we begin and see if Kevin joins us later. Do you all agree?
<CrustyBarnacle> +1
<cqfd93> +1
<jmarsden> +1
<JimConnett> (translation) Very easy, yes.
<JimConnett> ...end of translations. Let's get started!
<CarstenG> +1
<hannie> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Sat Jun  8 18:11:44 2013 UTC.  The chair is hannie. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
<hannie> Do you want me to be chair for the moment?
<JimConnett> Yes
<hannie> ok, lets see who is attending, please give a sign
<phillw> o/
<cqfd93> hi!
<jmarsden> o/
<CarstenG> hi
<Yorvyk> o/
<JimConnett> Greetings from the Pacific Northwest!
<hannie> Here is the link once more: http://pastebin.com/Cw5KU51h
<CrustyBarnacle> howdy
<ibere_SP> o/
<hannie> Before we start, are there any newcomers? Could you introduce yourself?
<phillw> hi, I'm phillw lubuntu QA / Testing Team Lead.
<jmarsden> I'm noew to ubuntu-manual.  A minor developer of Lubuntu.  Some past LaTex experience.  Interested in the proposed Lubuntu Manual work.
<ibere_SP> hi there! i'm ibere and i'm starting to help on lubuntu support team as a contributor. i'm active mainly on facebook lubuntu channel.
<hannie> ah, phillw welcome to the club!
<CrustyBarnacle> Howdy y'all :-)
<hannie> welcome ibere_SP another lubuntu enthousiast :)
<Yorvyk> Hi, I'm the idiot that proposed the Lubuntu version of the manual
<JimConnett> KEVIN!
<CrustyBarnacle> (secretly using Lubuntu on his lappy....)
<c7p> sry for that
<JimConnett> ...maybe...
<hannie> Yorvyk, we will talk about that later, ok?
<Yorvyk> Yep
 * JimConnett is installing Lubuntu on a VERY old laptop even as we speak.
<hannie> Ok, lets start with the first item on the agenda
<hannie> #topic Evaluating Raring
<hannie> I want to start with the authors phase. c7p could you tell something about that, please?
<c7p> sure
<c7p> author phase proceed with with some problems related to lack of authors
<hannie> https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0ApS28NMLnYJXdEdGQjRtUWtaOUZxREVzUldSOU5kc2c#gid=0
<c7p> i think that was very vivid during editor phase where editors had to fill some gaps
<hannie> yes, sometimes the line between autoring and editing becomes very thin
<c7p> after this we gained 2 new authors if my memory preserves me right, something that's very important
<hannie> c7p, I am sure you did everything to get as many authors aboard as you could
<godbyk> Hey, guys. Sorry I'm late. I lost track of time.
<hannie> hey godbyk we just started the meeting.
<c7p> one thing that was missing was communication between authors, but i think i'm to blame for that
<cqfd93> hi kevin!
<CarstenG> Hi Kevin!
 * godbyk will read the backlog and get caught up.
<hannie> godbyk,  here is the link to the agenda items: http://pastebin.com/Cw5KU51h
<hannie> c7p, communication via the mailing list or private emails?
<JimConnett> If I could append to c7p's report...
<c7p> both and live sessions too
<hannie> So here is a point of improvement that Jim will handle
<hannie> to all, jim is our new authors coordinator
<c7p> yea maybe
<JimConnett> The google docs spreadsheet just posted by hannie has a complete accounting of our current authors for 13.10
<CrustyBarnacle> I felt disconnected from the other Authors/Editors... but, my own communication/reaching out could improve too.
<JimConnett> Every author from 13.04 has been emailed, and every author replied (except for one, I think).
<hannie> CrustyBarnacle, that is an important piece of information
<JimConnett> We lost two in the process, so the spreadsheet clearly shows where we are ok, and where we are weak.
<hannie> JimConnett, will you see to it that communication gets better?
<jmarsden> Maybe authors could have a monthly IRC meeting, or similar, so they feel more like a community?
<JimConnett> My goal is to connect the authors to the editors. I think this is an important piece to the puzzle we are missing.
<hannie> jmarsden, good idea. Will you coordinate that?
<c7p> i think live sessions would be ideal
<c7p> +1 jim
<JimConnett> We also have to recruit. I've already contacted OMG! Ubuntu! for some type of interaction as they have helped us before.  No reply yet.
<hannie> jmarsden, sorry, I meant JimConnett
<jmarsden> hannie: Well, I expect to me more of an editor than author for Lubuntu related work... but if no one else volunteers, sure.
<jmarsden> hannie: Ah, good :)
<JimConnett> I can certainly explore an IRC meeting every month up to the due date
<JimConnett> But right now, we only have a handful of authors, and I think our efforts should be equally focused between connecting existing authors and acquiring new authors.
<CrustyBarnacle> any thoughts on using Google+/hangouts for live sessions?
<godbyk> JimConnett: For recruiting in the past, we've posted a list of 'job' openings on our website and then written a little press release about it that we send out to OMG! and others.
<godbyk> JimConnett: We can also post it on our Facebook page. We've gotten decent use out of that when we're looking for proofreaders, etc.
<hannie> #action JimConnett will see to it that authors meet on irc once a month
<meetingology> ACTION: JimConnett will see to it that authors meet on irc once a month
<CrustyBarnacle> #idea any thoughts on using Google+/hangouts for live sessions?
<c7p> i think that we should contact translation teams to for new members
<c7p> many of us are contributing ubuntu manual, because we learnt the project through translations
<JimConnett> Aren't the translation teams part of the mailing list already?
<c7p> what i mean is that translation teams are more close to project than the rest of community
<hannie> CrustyBarnacle, we could use hangouts too
<JimConnett> If they are, surely, they would have seen the need  and stepped up as appropriate!
<hannie> c7p, we will talk about translations later
<godbyk> JimConnett: Sometimes a person just likes to be asked. ;-)
<c7p> not talking about translations but for new member recruits
<c7p> but it's next on agenda so leave it for later
<hannie> right. recruiting. don't we do that already using the mailing list? Everyone who needs help can find us on irc or the mailing list
<JimConnett> Alright...so, for this part of our agenda....we have a proper accounting of authors for 13.10
<JimConnett> The proposed schedule looks good as well.
<hannie> ok, I suggest we go to the editors phase evaluation:
<hannie> For Raring every chapter/section had an editor. Like we said before, the work for editors was sometimes more difficult
 * JimConnett wonders if THIS time the developer teams will hold to their feature freeze commitment. 
<hannie> I would like to see more cooperation between the author(s) and editor(s) of a chapter/section
<hannie> How chould we improve that?
<hannie> *could
<JimConnett> Again, I think this comes down to communication. Everytime an author commits, we should immediately connect them with the editor.
<CrustyBarnacle> Have Editor/s per section, instead of throughout the manual? That is, limit to a section?
<godbyk> CrustyBarnacle: Currently editors are assigned to specific chapters/sections just as the authors are.
<hannie> CrustyBarnacle, some editors edit more than one chapter/section. That is necessary because we do not have enough editors
<CrustyBarnacle> OK...
<c7p> i think that meetings could help and also we could add a week between author and editing phase, where editor and author would have to cooperate
<hannie> JimConnett, agreed. Better communication between author/editor
<hannie> Evaluation final phase: was that phase ok?
<c7p> it may sound silly, but it maybe a way to formalize that editor and author have to be in contact with each other
<jmarsden> JimConnett: can bzr send email to the relevant editor when a commit is made to a given chapter?  Some sort of bzr hook script?
<JimConnett> I think editors and authors should be cooperating from the beginning
<CrustyBarnacle> +1 bzr email
<godbyk> jmarsden: Possibly. I'm not too familiar with bzr hooks, but I'll look into it.
<hannie> ok, I suggest one of us will put this on the mailing list
 * godbyk has used svn hooks before, but not bzr or git hooks yet.
<c7p> that sounds good
<JimConnett> Are there any downsides to "reassigning" editors?
<CrustyBarnacle> Early meeting of editor/author sounds like a good idea to help get started
<hannie> godbyk, I get messages from LP as soon as a commit is done
<CarstenG> JimConnett: To get notified about commits, I think every author and editor should be subscribed in the code branch to get an email from LP
<hannie> #action hannie will send an email to the list about better cooperation author/editor
<meetingology> ACTION: hannie will send an email to the list about better cooperation author/editor
<CarstenG> jmarsden: Yes, you have to subscribe you here: https://code.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-manual/ubuntu-manual/saucy
<hannie> Are there still any questions about evaluation of raring?
<godbyk> hannie: So do I. But I get message as soon as anyone pushes to the branch. Can we make it so editors see commits only from their authors?
<CarstenG> Maybe we can set the manual team here to get emails about commits
<c7p> i 've spoken for authors, authors that are here can express themselves too
<CarstenG> At the moment the team gets no emails...
<godbyk> CarstenG: That might get pretty noisy on the mailing list.
<c7p> about how they evaluate the previous sereis
<jmarsden> godbyk: I suspect you can if someone writes an appropriate hook script, but I am no expert on that.
<CarstenG> Well, you can use filters to sort out such email in a special folder.
<JimConnett> While I think the authors need to be writing NOW...authoring is a double edged sword
<CarstenG> I guess every email program can do this.
<hannie> For the moment I would say: if everyone gets a message when something is pushed he/she can see if it concerns his/her chapter and take action if necessary
<JimConnett> If you author NOW, then features can (and will) change all the way to feature freeze, requiring re-authoring.
<jmarsden> If you are going to mae everyone see all commits, I'd suggest doing it as a separate mailing list ubuntu-mainual-commits or similar
<JimConnett> If you author a few days before the deadline, we're scrambling, and it puts editors in a difficult position.
<CrustyBarnacle> +1 separate mailing list for commits (I just subscribed to saucy branch on launchpad)
<godbyk> JimConnett: Yeah, I think that's the crux of it.
<hannie> I do not mind receiving a private message when things are pushed to LP
<CarstenG> jmarsden: Well as I told, the usage of filters is very helpful here.
<CrustyBarnacle> I say we start authoring, and editors are responsible for last-minute changes in feature/ui (making sure they are documented correctly).
<hannie> Conclusion: we will have to find out if we can personalize the LP messages
<CarstenG> Hannie: You ar not yet subscribed to the saucy branch...
<Thomas> Hello everyone! I'm sorry I am late.
<hannie> CarstenG, oh, I will look into it later
<jmarsden> CarstenG: Agreed but it's traditional to have a separate list for that stuff, and it avoids putting off newcomers to the mailing list who don't understand why they are seeing all these "wierd" messages :)
<c7p> +1
<hannie> If there are no more questions on this subject I want to move to the next item
<Guest70970> Hello. I hope I didn't miss everything...
<hannie> Guest70970, perhaps you can introduce yourself to us?
<CarstenG> ok, if we can manage it to push these mails to another list...
<hannie> #action CarstenG will look into this matter ;)
<meetingology> ACTION: CarstenG will look into this matter ;)
<Guest70970> Yes hannie. I am Thomas Corwin.
<hannie> ah, welcome thomas
<hannie> #topic 2: How to get more contributors
<hannie> I personally am not very good at this. Are there any suggestions?
<hannie> hi TonyP
<CarstenG> Hi TonyP
<TonyP> Sorry I'm late as usual
<cqfd93> Hi Thomas and TonyP
<hannie> Have we done enough in the past to get contributors, and what more can we do?
<godbyk> Good questions.
<jmarsden> It's interesting that the idea of an Lubuntu version has got you at least 3 or 4 people here today... have you thought of a KDE version, an Xubuntu version, etc?  Would thatr get you more folks from those flavours?
<JimConnett> I'll be connecting with Kevin via email for the contact information, the whats, and the hows, with past avenues to put out a call for new authors/editors.
<godbyk> In the past, I think we've just posted on Facebook, tried to get a post on OMG!, and tried to get a post on Ubuntu Planet.
<godbyk> Then hope that people show up looking to help.
<CrustyBarnacle> LUGs...  anyone attend regularly to announce locally?
<jmarsden> I'm typing this from a LUG :)
<TonyP> I joined following a message on the Ubuntu-uk loco list
<hannie> #action JimConnett  and godbyk will look into the matter of getting more contributors
<meetingology> ACTION: JimConnett  and godbyk will look into the matter of getting more contributors
<godbyk> jmarsden: We've thought about that before, but weren't sure we'd get enough people to work on those spin-off manuals.
<CarstenG> The translations teams would be also a good source of new contributors, or?
<Guest70970> Could I add something to the agenda if there is time, hannie?
<hannie> jmarsden, good suggestion to see if we can get people from other flavors willing to work for the manual
<hannie> Guest70970, sure, go ahead
<godbyk> CarstenG: Yeah, we have quite a few translators who have stuck around to help with the English manual (hannie, c7p, cqfd93, etc.).
<c7p> we 've to look on who will coordinate these spin-off manuals, not sure if we can make it
<JimConnett> Anyone worried about resource dilution?
<phillw> sorry huys, feeding time here, I'll read the scroll  back later :(
<godbyk> JimConnett: I am. :)
<phillw> s/h/g/
<godbyk> phillw: No problem. Thanks for coming!
<hannie> see you, phillw
<JimConnett> We're already inviting authors/editors to one project...now we have Lubuntu, which is great, but is there really THAT much crossover?
<JimConnett> Example...screenshots from Ubuntu are unusable.
<JimConnett> ...unusable in Lubuntu.
<ThomasC> Sory. I disconnected on accident...
<ThomasC> sorry)
<hannie> JimConnett, people from other flavors can help with the ubuntu manual as well: e.g. proofreading
<jmarsden> Hopefully once people gain the basic skillset they can use it for multiple flavors... only way to know is to try, I think.
<CrustyBarnacle> I'd be interested in how much of Troubleshooting can crossover the different flavors
<ThomasC> I will do Wine for the different flavours.
<JimConnett> And an editor for Ubuntu would need to have an installation of Lubuntu if the editor is going to properly fulfill their commitment. I have about 7 different VMs installed on my machine, so I can handle it, but others>
<hannie> We need to do some research first to see if there are a great many differences between the flavors
<JimConnett> There are. Just installed Lubuntu during this session. DVD/CD burning, Office applications (I could go on and on) are different.
<c7p> let's put the talk on a foundation
<ibere_SP> hannie, i myself can say i learned a lot of Lubuntu reading Ubuntu manual.
<hannie> ibere_SP, that is good to hear
<c7p> same people will handle both manuals ?
<c7p> or there would be "different" teams
<jmarsden> That's a later topic, I think :)
<ThomasC> After we are done with the important topics, i have a question..
<hannie> So, about this topic: will JimConnett and godbyk see to this?
<hannie> The topic was: how do we get more contributors?
<JimConnett> I'm already taking on a lot. Recruitment is my number one goal. I'd prefer someone else look into this.
<hannie> If there are no more questions, I want to go to item 3
<JimConnett> ...someone else look into the feasibility of crossover between Ubuntu and Lubuntu for authors/editors.
<godbyk> hannie: I can explain what we've done in the past and help brainstorm ideas for the future, sure.
<godbyk> JimConnett: I think hannie was talking about getting more contributors there.
<hannie> Ok, I suggest we continue this via the mailing list (getting more contributors)
<godbyk> hannie: Sounds good.
<ThomasC> JimConnett: I can do that in the next couple days, if thats alright.
<hannie> Anyone who has an idea, please send it to the list
<godbyk> I'll start a mailing list thread on this topic after the meeting.
<hannie> #topic 3: Release schedule Saucy
<hannie> Have you all seen the schedule I proposed?
<TonyP> Is there a link to it?
<hannie> #action godbyk starts a mailing list thread on how we can get more contributors
<meetingology> ACTION: godbyk starts a mailing list thread on how we can get more contributors
<godbyk> TonyP: http://pastebin.com/Cw5KU51h
<TonyP> Thanks
<JimConnett> ....gives us authors ~ 3 months. That's good. Authors? Are ya'll good with that? See any issues>
<jmarsden> Can't editors edit during the authoring phase, as soon as an author commits something??
<ThomasC> 3 months sound like a good amount of time.
<godbyk> JimConnett: That's true.. but usually most of their work has to happen toward the end of that time as they have to wait for the developers to finish uploading their latest work.
<jmarsden> The strict separating in time seems unnecessary
<hannie> JimConnett, if the stretch is too long there is a danger of postponing work to the last minute
<c7p> the amount of time isn't a real factor to tell, i agree with Kevin
<godbyk> jmarsden: They could as long as they avoid bzr conflicts and the like.  (No one likes merging conflicts.)
<jmarsden> Sure.  Iwas thinking it would help the author/ewditor collaboration if they work together...
<c7p> i think that there should be given one more week for authors (talking as past author coordinator), in previous series one more week was vital
<JimConnett> There is no exclusivity in the schedule. We have to have a drop-dead date to keep the project on target.
<hannie> I think authors and editors can start by rereading raring and see if it needs to be improved
<godbyk> jmarsden: Absolutely! If authors and editors are working together closely then there shouldn't be an problems with having both of them working at the same time.
<CrustyBarnacle> agreed
<godbyk> c7p: So would we reduce the editing phase to just 1 week? Or is there something else that would need to be adjusted in the schedule to compensate?
<c7p> i cant talk for editors, but i think we can amend the release date, no big deal
<CrustyBarnacle> can we just list it as Writing Finishes / Editing Begins (both in the same week)>?
<TonyP> I was thinking that 2 weeks editing was little enough
<hannie> c7p, so you agree with the schedule?
<JimConnett> As an editor, a one week is too short.
<TonyP> I had a lot of problems with both the lasy two relaeases
<godbyk> c7p: Do you mean release the manual a week after Ubuntu has been released?
<c7p> yep
<hannie> The editors phase is 2 weeks now
<godbyk> hannie: Perhaps you should talk about the changes you made to this schedule.  How does it differ from the raring schedule?
<CrustyBarnacle> I'd like to keep those 2 weeks
<c7p> that would go so if editors think that they need more time
<hannie> The schedule does not differ too much from the raring schedule
<hannie> There is only a slight overlap between the editing phase and the indexing phase due to
 * JimConnett thinks we've tried SO HARD to coordinate software and manual release...that it would be a step back to propose any other release plan.
<hannie> the ubuntu release schedule
 * JimConnett has to leave in 21 minutes.
<hannie> So, does the schedule needs any adjustment?
<JimConnett> My vote is 'no'.
<CrustyBarnacle> no
<ThomasC> no
<cqfd93> no
<hannie> Ok, next:
<hannie> #topic 4 screenshots
<hannie> CarstenG, cqfd93 could you say anything about this?
<cqfd93> I have a great experience in screenshotting
<CarstenG> Well, I would do them again :-)
<cqfd93> me too
<hannie> Did you encounter any problems in the raring version?
<godbyk> Sounds like we have a screenshot team! ;-)
<jmarsden> How automated is that process, and can it be made to work in Lubuntu too?
<godbyk> jmarsden: At the moment, the process isn't automated at all.
<cqfd93> no problems
<hannie> Right, CarstenG and cqfd93 will look after the screenshots
<CarstenG> One bad thing was the Feature Freeze exeption with some icons...
<godbyk> jmarsden: You have to manually take each screenshot.
<jmarsden> ah.  I thought I saw something about a python tool to automate things...?
<JimConnett> I REALLY like the fact that we have a dedicated team for screenshots. Keeps our shots uniform.
<godbyk> jmarsden: We had one once upon a time (Quickshot) but we haven't had any developers for it in eons, so it no longer works.
<CarstenG> jmarsden: You mean Quickshot?
<CarstenG> That does not work anymore...
<jmarsden> CarstenG: Probably :)
<godbyk> jmarsden: I still think it'd be great if Quickshot could be revived as I think it did simplify things quite a bit.  But that's just my opinion.
<CarstenG> We would need a developer to update it to 13.10.
<jmarsden> Otherwise Lubuntu could double the workload for the screenshot team... are they willing to tolerate that?
<godbyk> JimConnett: I agree.
<JimConnett> So...Carsten and Sylvie, can we officially commit you both to the screenshots for 13.10?
<CrustyBarnacle> jmardsen: no commitment has been made to Lubuntu yet.. separate topic/project
<CarstenG> Well, the Lubuntu team should find a own screenshot team :-)
<ThomasC> I could TRY to make a new version of Quickshot... I can't promise anything.
<cqfd93> for ubuntu, yes
<hannie> As long as there are no devolopers to adjust quickshot we will not use it
<cqfd93> for Lubuntu, I don't know
<godbyk> CarstenG and cqfd93, are there any issues you encountered with screenshots? Anything we can do to make your lives easier there?
<jmarsden> hannie: How badly broken is it?  I could take a quick look, but I'm not volunteering tens of hours for fixing it...
<hannie> ThomasC, it would be great if you want to give it a try
<ThomasC> hannie, alright. I will work on it when i can.
<hannie> jmarsden, it is outdated and needs a lot of rewriting
<cqfd93> godbyk, I don't remember of any serious problems
<CarstenG> Well, I had no big problems, only the grub screen I had to do in a VM...
<hannie> #action ThomasC will try to revive quickshot
<meetingology> ACTION: ThomasC will try to revive quickshot
<godbyk> cqfd93: Great!
<CarstenG> Great
<godbyk> CarstenG: Yeah, the GRUB screenshot is always a pain.
<hannie> No more question about screenshots?
<hannie> We have a new screenshot team: CarstenG and sylvie
<cqfd93> ;-)
 * JimConnett has documented Carsten and Sylvie as our highly-capable, super-intelligent screenshot team for Ubuntu 13.10.
<CarstenG> one point ...
<hannie> #topic translations
 * JimConnett ...in the google docs spreadsheet
<hannie> ah, CarstenG go ahead
<CarstenG> If authors want to have new screenshots, they should do a first draft for them self.
<cqfd93> +1
<CrustyBarnacle> +1
<CarstenG> Then we can make them right.
<godbyk> +1
<ThomasC> +1
<JimConnett> +1
<hannie> CarstenG, I suggest authors can get help using the mailing list if they get stuck
<CarstenG> Sure.
<ThomasC> hannie, quick question
<hannie> Next: translations
<hannie> ThomasC, go ahead
<godbyk> One of the ideas I had the other day was to document the responsibilities and processes for each type of contributor (author, editor, translator, etc.) so that these things (e.g., 'you must take a draft screenshot') are more clear.
<godbyk> I'll try to work on that soon and get it added to the style guide.
 * JimConnett has to leave in 10 minutes.
<ThomasC> What features did Quickshot have, i am not familiar with it, but i am a novice developer.
<hannie> godbyk, very good idea!
<godbyk> ThomasC: I'll email you some links and info about Quickshot after the meeting.
<jmarsden> ThomasC: Suggest running it in a VM on the last version it works on, to see how it used to work?
<hannie> ThomasC, I suggest we continue about quickshot using the mailing list
<ThomasC> Thanks. I will after the meeting.
<CarstenG> ThomasC: Maybe you can install a 10.04 in a VM an test it there? then you get a feeling of it...
<CrustyBarnacle> Translations?
<hannie> #action godbyk will document responsibilities and processes for each type of contributor
<meetingology> ACTION: godbyk will document responsibilities and processes for each type of contributor
<hannie> Ok, now to item 5: Translations
<CrustyBarnacle> I have to go... will catch up and send ideas/comments to mailing list... bye All
<hannie> Are we happy about how translations work at the moment?
<hannie> CrustyBarnacle, thanks a lot for attending. see you soon
<CarstenG> See you Mario
<cqfd93> For the French translation, yes! :-)
<hannie> hasta luego
<cqfd93> bye!
<godbyk> (Aside from my tardiness in getting them published? ;-))
 * godbyk promises to work on the French and Slovenian translations this weekend!
<hannie> Dutch translations, only LTS
<cqfd93> great!
<CarstenG> Well, we have 3 languages on 100 % only some days after release of raring! Thats great.
<godbyk> CarstenG: Yeah, I think these translators are getting *too good* at their work! :-)
<hannie> No more questions on translations?
<godbyk> For 13.04, both the French and Slovenian translations are about ready to be published.
<CarstenG> So I have the idea to open the translation some time earlier.
<hannie> How about the Spanish translation?
<godbyk> CarstenG: ?
<CarstenG> So we can publish also translations in time with the release.
<godbyk> hannie: I haven't heard from the Spanish translation team yet.
<hannie> Next:
<godbyk> CarstenG: Ah. Well, to do that we have to either fix Launchpad or stop writing/editing early enough for the translators to start their work.
<hannie> #topic 6: bug handling
<CarstenG> Well, in the last period of editing we mostly do fix typos, so the translators can handle this, too...
<hannie> Do we have to assign bug fixing to members of our team?
<hannie> At this moment some of us look at bug reports occasionally (I think)
<godbyk> hannie: How does our bug handling look at the moment?
<cqfd93> I volunteer to help for bug fixing
<godbyk> Do we have a lot of bugs that need to be dealt with?
<hannie> I would like to see more structure in the way we fix bugs.
<godbyk> I know I haven't been very studious about dealing with them lately.
<CarstenG> Well, I think who is interested in bug fixing, should join the group https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-manual-bugs
<jmarsden> Can you get an automated summary of open bugs emailed to the mailing list, monthly or even weekly?  To provide visibility to the team on what needs fixing?
<hannie> I am in favor of letting authors/editors take care a bugs that affect their chapter
<hannie> *car of
<hannie> * care of (oops)
<JimConnett> Alright...I need to leave. Thanks for all the ideas and everyone's participation today. Look to the mail list in the next week for information about recruitment and author-editor coordination. Great to be a part of this project.
<CarstenG> If you are subscribed there, you get emails about all bugs...
<hannie> JimConnett, thank you for being with us. see you
<godbyk> jmarsden: Good idea. I'll have to look into that, too.
<hannie> jmarsden, good idea
<JimConnett> ...also, my new email address is jim@jimconnett.com. Both old and new email addresses work, but I'm going to be moving to the new address for this project. Have a great day.
<hannie> I suggest we continue discussion on bug fixing using the mailing list
<CarstenG> see you
<godbyk> hannie: Sounds good.
<hannie> #action hannie will start discussion on bug fixing on the mailing list
<meetingology> ACTION: hannie will start discussion on bug fixing on the mailing list
<hannie> Last topic:
<hannie> #topic lubuntu
<hannie> finally we get at lubuntu ;)
<godbyk> Did we scare off all the Lubuntu guys yet? ;-)
<ThomasC> hannie: can i add a topic? it would help me greatly...
 * jmarsden is still here :)
<ThomasC> And i want to help with Lubuntu! :)
<hannie> godbyk, I think your explanation on the different possibilities was great
<Yorvyk> o/
<hannie> so, we have 3 lubuntu people here
<godbyk> Thanks for sticking with us, guys. Sorry it took so long to get to this topic.
<hannie> Yorvyk, what do you think of the suggestions godbyk wrote on the mailing list?
<hannie> One moment, see if I can open that email....
<Yorvyk> Basically he confirmed what I'd thought
<c7p> sry dc
<godbyk> https://lists.launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual/msg04133.html
 * phillw is back
<Yorvyk> Sorry I'm in a pub and I'm going to have to move to another area. BRB
<godbyk> phillw: Just in time! :)
<godbyk> So are you interested in going with the PDF-only route?
<hannie> Could other flavors make manuals under the umbrella of the Ubuntu Manual Project?
<godbyk> hannie: I don't have any problems with that.
<phillw> godbyk: does the pdf version retain links?
<godbyk> phillw: Yes.
<phillw> that would kill two birds with one stone and reduce our workload for a small team!
<phillw> excellent :D
<godbyk> Currently, the Ubuntu Manual project uses LaTeX for our work.
<godbyk> With LaTeX, we generate PDFs.
<godbyk> In addition to the free PDFs, we also offer printed editions of the manual that we currently publish through CreateSpace.
<phillw> is there any move to doodle planned?
<Yorvyk> I would stick with PDFs, unless there is demand for something else
<jmarsden> I think there is enough interest in a Ubuntu Manual-derived Lubuntu Manual that we should figure out how to make it happen -- do we do it as a fork of the Ubuntu Manual bzr repository, or as a sudirectory of it, or even with #ifdef like handling of the chunks of the LaTeX that need to differ between the two?
<godbyk> We do not currently offer other ebook formats though this is something I'd like to try to do in the future.
<hannie> sticking to pdf makes things easier I think
<phillw> hannie: +1
<godbyk> jmarsden: I would probably just have a lubuntu-manual bzr repository and you can pull across the existing framework and files that you're interested in sharing.
<godbyk> phillw: doodle?
<phillw> godbyk: ubuntu-doc are evidently going to be using it.
<hannie> godbyk, phillw, Yorvyk may I suggest we work out a plan of close cooperation and publish lubuntu under the umbrella of the ubuntu Manual Project?
<godbyk> phillw: Ah, I haven't heard anything about it. Do you have a link?  ubuntu-doc is using Mallard at the moment.
<godbyk> hannie: I think that sounds like a good idea.
<phillw> godbyk: I'll dig the links out for you l8er :)
<Yorvyk> That is what I was hopping for, with out placing too much burdon on you.
<godbyk> phillw: No problem. Thanks!
<godbyk> Yorvyk: We have a little bit of downtime between releases, so it's a good time to sort this out. :)
<jmarsden> godbyk: OK.  I can probably set the bzr stuff up if no one else beats me to it :)  Maybe we can have a "vendor" subtree with the ubuntu manual sources in that we can sync from the Ubuntu Manual bzr tree from time to time, or something like that.
<hannie> phillw, Yorvyk does your lubuntu team have a mailing list or irc channel?
<phillw> Yorvyk: I think it would it would be better for us go the manual route, and drop doodle. That means we just have wiki and lubuntu-manual to concentrate on.
<jmarsden> hannie: #lubuntu and #lubuntu-offtopic here on Freenode
<hannie> jmarsden, I should address you too, sorry
<jmarsden> phillw: +1
<jmarsden> hannie: And the lubuntu-users mailing list
<hannie> ok
<phillw> there is a lubuntu-wiki-docs team at https://launchpad.net/~lubuntu-wiki-docs
<jmarsden> hannie: Would you prefer we use ubuntu-manual mailing list for discussion as Lubuntu Manual ramps up, or use other channels so we don't add "noise" for those doing the Ubuntu Manual??
<godbyk> jmarsden: For now, let's use the ubuntu-manual mailing list.
<jmarsden> Ok with me.  phillw, does that work for you?
<godbyk> jmarsden: If it gets to be too much then we can look into a new mailing list.
<Yorvyk> OK with me.
<hannie> jmarsden, yes, that would be very convenient
<godbyk> The ubuntu-manual mailing list and IRC channel are fairly low-traffic, so I don't think it'll be a problem.
<phillw> jmarsden: we can use the lubuntu-wiki-docs one for getting the ideas across
<hannie> sending a copy to our mailing list is fine
<jmarsden> OK.
<phillw> but If the ubuntu-manual team are happy with us using their good offices, that's great :)
<ThomasC> I mean, i know its not my part to do so, but i can make a channel named #lubuntu-manual for now, and someone else can set it up eventually.
<hannie> So, shall we continue our discussion on cooperation through our mailing list?
<jmarsden> BTW I downloaded the Ubuntu Manual bzr tree and installed tools and built the PDF last night, just as a starting point...
<godbyk> ThomasC: I think we're okay using #ubuntu-manual for now.
<hannie> jmarsden, that is great
<godbyk> jmarsden: Ah, cool. Did you encounter any problems?
<phillw> we do similar with lubuntu-quality, where a lot gets cc'd to ubuntu-quality, but we can still discuss pure lubuntu things amongst ourselves and not clutter up peoples' inboxes.
<Yorvyk> I'd rather stick with ubuntu-manual for now so people don't get isolated in to too many small groups
<jmarsden> godbyk: The script seems a little odd in places but I worked through it.  The info on your web site assumes using a non-packaged version of texlibe, I';d prefer update it to recommend using packages now that they do in fact work.
<jmarsden> *texlive
<hannie> Are there still any questions before I close this meeting?
<ThomasC> hannie: I have a few
<godbyk> jmarsden: I'd love to heard your feedback. I think we encountered problems with the Ubuntu packages when it came to translations.
<jmarsden> godbyk: Ok, will post to the ubuntu-manual mailing list which I just subscribed to.
<hannie> ThomasC, go ahead
<godbyk> jmarsden: Thanks!
<jmarsden> godbyk: Apparently someone needs to approve me :)
<godbyk> jmarsden: I just did
<jmarsden> Thanks.
<phillw> godbyk: ditto :)
<ThomasC> I was going to propose a possible full chapter about Wine on ubuntu. I wanted to add explanations about adding prerequisites, as well as have compatability issues that are common listed there, with some trouleshooting.
<godbyk> phillw: Approved. :)
<phillw> thnx
<hannie> ThomasC, we should not make the wine section too comprehensive (that is just my opinion) but
<godbyk> ThomasC: Having an entire chapter on Wine might be a bit much. We'd like to keep it a 'getting started' guide so it doesn't get too large.
<hannie> you must write what is necessary for the users to understand how wine works
<ThomasC> Alright. Another idea i had (if this one was blew out of the water) was create a tiny "enhanced" manual that would contain Wine on Ubuntu, LuBuntu, and Kubuntu.
<ThomasC> I can create it an compile it off-bzr locally.
<godbyk> ThomasC: So a short, self-contained guide for Wine?
<hannie> ThomasC, of course you can always publish a manual on Wine yourself
<ThomasC> That is correct. But we could leave the basics in the manual, possibly.
<jmarsden> "Getting started with Wine in Ubuntu 13.10"  - sounds workable to me, but I'd suggest you keep the sources and tools within the Ubuntu Manual project, just create a separate PDF.
<hannie> Yes, the basics in the manual are fine
<godbyk> ThomasC: That's a possibility.
<ThomasC> Ill make an entirely new folder then.
<ThomasC> and put it up in a revision
<godbyk> At one point we'd discussed having spin-off guides. For example, an installation guide, a Wine guide, and so forth.
<hannie> I think it is a completely different story to start publishing separate manuals on special subjects
<godbyk> But we've never gotten around to actually doing it.
<godbyk> hannie: I agree.
<godbyk> I think that each guide would need to have its own authors, editors, etc.
<hannie> Shall we leave this for later? I think we have discussed enough for the moment
<ThomasC> I mean, you don't have to publish it with the Ubuntu manual, its just a proposition of an idea.
<ThomasC> and yes.
<hannie> If there are no more questions, I will close the meeting
<ThomasC> I'm done.
<hannie> #endmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting ended Sat Jun  8 19:57:53 2013 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes (wiki):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-manual/2013/ubuntu-manual.2013-06-08-18.11.moin.txt
<meetingology> Minutes (html):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-manual/2013/ubuntu-manual.2013-06-08-18.11.html
<hannie> Ok guys, thank you all for being here. You may continue chatting here as long as you wish
<godbyk> Thanks for running the meeting, hannie. You did a great job!
<TonyP> +1
<hannie> you're welcome ;)
<CarstenG> Yeah, thanks to Hannie!
<Yorvyk> +1
<cqfd93> +1
<ThomasC> +1
<hannie> Hope to talk to you all on irc or the list about all the great things we are going to do in the near future :)
<Yorvyk> I hope so too.
<ThomasC> I have a small question. How do you make a separate PDF in bzr?
 * godbyk is going to find some lunch and will be back soon.
<hannie> ThomasC, I think you have to package it and send it to your personal PPA (which you can create first)
<jmarsden> ThomasC: A new chunk in the Makefile, I would expect.  So make produces the main manual, but a new target say ubuntu-wine-manual produces the Wine mini-manual PDF instead.
<c7p> gj
<ThomasC> Wll, i don't want to mess anything up in the Makefile... thats the last thing i want to do.
<jmarsden> So you can do either make, or make ubuntu-wine-manual, depending on which one you want to generate...
<ThomasC> well)
<jmarsden> ThomasC: OK, then create a separate Makefile in your own subdirectory that generates your minimanual
<jmarsden> But don't forget bzr exists so you can revert mistakes :)
<ThomasC> I wil try to do that tonight, once i get VirtualBox running with 10.04 for Quickshot
<c7p> g2g cu all
<c7p> good night
<ThomasC> Goodbye c7p
<cqfd93> good night!
<CarstenG> see you John
<phillw> g'nite c7p
<ThomasC> And i can't find an .iso for Lucid 10.04 Desktop Edition...
<jmarsden> Cool.  I need to go home and eat, then will try doing another install of the texlive stuff needed for Ubuntu Manual and document what I did for others in Lubuntu.  Hopefully I can do it using all packages, I dislike the use of the tarball...
<jmarsden> Wow, they removed the 10.04 ISOs  now they are unsupported...
<jmarsden> Must be on an archive machine somewhere...
<jmarsden> I have it on my desktop machine at home, I am pretty sure, worst case :)
<phillw> ThomasC: lafibre may still have them https://launchpad.net/~lubuntu-wiki-docs
<CarstenG> well it is outdated. So it will not be on the official cd mirrors
<phillw> soz... c + P fail!
<phillw> ThomasC: http://ubuntu.lafibre.info/10.04/
<CarstenG> But some time ago I saw a server with all the previous versions...
<CarstenG> ah, great phillw
<ThomasC> phillw: i was just there. Its not there.
<phillw> just looked, they only have server :/
<jmarsden> ThomasC: Try http://old-releases.ubuntu.com/releases/lucid/
<jmarsden>  ThomasC: Seems to be on the old-releases one to me...
<jmarsden> http://old-releases.ubuntu.com/releases/lucid/ubuntu-10.04.4-desktop-i386.iso
<jmarsden> http://old-releases.ubuntu.com/releases/lucid/ubuntu-10.04.4-desktop-amd64.iso
<CarstenG> http://old-releases.ubuntu.com/releases/
<CarstenG> Here we are.
<ThomasC> CarstenG: I just got there. haha. It is there still.
<phillw> CarstenG: drat, beeten me to it :P
<phillw> old ISO's don't die.... they just smell that way :)
<ThomasC> jmarsden: I am downloading it now. :) Thank you all for your help. I will do my best o revive Quickshot (even though I may not be adding ALL of its original features at first)
<CarstenG> Thomas, thanks for digging into Quickshot.
<jmarsden> No problem.  I need to close up this room (still at LUG location) and go home and eat... will email to the mailing list more about adventures installing texlive etc, hopefully in a few hours.
<CarstenG> I would like to see it working.
<CarstenG> But now itâs time to leave.
<CarstenG> See you all.
<CarstenG> Good night.
<cqfd93> good night CarstenG!
<phillw> g'nite CarstenG
<ThomasC> Goodnight CarstenG! and no problem.
<phillw> godbyk: sorry, my misreading of the email(s), they were having 'fun' with doodle being able to schedule up a meeting as a follow on from vUDS.  The meeting will be held at #ubuntu-doc on Monday 10 June 2013 22:00 UTC
<godbyk> phillw: Ah, gotcha. Not a problem.  Though you did have me worried there for a bit.. :)
<phillw> godbyk: the -doc team have discussed that many different applications to use, I have completely lost track of them all!
<godbyk> phillw: I know!
<phillw> I'm glad that they have finally decided on one and will attend!
<godbyk> Hopefully we'll get things sorted out during our meeting on Monday.
<phillw> Yup, I've held back simply because there was no final decision of what to use and why to have different systems that require the repetition of content across different (in compatible) systems.
<godbyk> AFAIK we're sticking with Mallard for the Ubuntu docs.
<godbyk> The server guide is using Docbook, I think.
<godbyk> And the other *buntu flavors are using Docbook or Mallard as they see fit. (I think most are still using Docbook, but I may be wrong there.)
#ubuntu-manual 2017-06-08
<rustam> Hi!
<rustam> How are you?
